# Pop Brixton (formerly Grow Brixton) Pope's Road development



## editor (Mar 27, 2014)

So, what do we think, people?
I'm pretty impressed, even if one of the ideas has got loadsa 'hubs.'

Shortlisted bids for Meanwhile at Pope’s Road showcased – Brixton Toolbox and Grow: Brixton


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## editor (Mar 27, 2014)

That shop unit sure has changed hands a few times...






http://www.urban75.org/blog/lost-brixton-brixton-station-road-market-and-johns-cafe/


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## choochi (Mar 27, 2014)

Both look impressive. Hope one comes to fruition. I like the second one personally. How long will the site be available before it is  redeveloped?


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## editor (Mar 27, 2014)

Eighteen months max.


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## Rushy (Mar 27, 2014)

That's a really short period for anything to get up and running, isn't it?
FWIW I probably slightly prefer the Grow proposal. Carl Turner is the guy who designed and built the concrete Slip House on Lyham Road (Grand Designs).

Did anyone hear about the TfL tunnels and WW2 bomb shelters in Clapham North being converted into a city kitchen garden to serve London restaurants?


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## editor (Apr 14, 2014)

Grow:Brixton  won the competition.
I think their proposals look pretty good. 






http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/04/...ansform-empty-space-at-popes-road-in-brixton/


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## boohoo (Apr 14, 2014)

Looks great - should be another point of interest for Brixton as a tourist destination. All the people who have moved into the area will love it! 
(I'm sounding bitter today )


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 14, 2014)

I like it and it's right on my doorstep.


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## boohoo (Apr 14, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I like it and it's right on my doorstep.


Everytime I see some trendy young person in my neck of the woods, I think they have accidently stayed on the 196, missing their Brixton stop- here's to wishful thinking and hoping they won't be all moving here anytime soon (although I've noticed an increase in joggers - early signs  ).


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## Rushy (Apr 14, 2014)

That's the one I'd have chosen. Can only imagine they expect it to carry on for longer than 18months - can't see otherwise how it will properly get off the ground before it has to close.


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## trabuquera (Apr 14, 2014)

Who votes on the permanent use for the site and is there any way urban / we / residents can throw spanners into the likely developers' works?
Just curious.


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## editor (Apr 14, 2014)

I've heard from some of the people _familiar with this process_ that it's far more likely to be something like 3 years than 18 months.


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## editor (Apr 14, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Looks great - should be another point of interest for Brixton as a tourist destination. All the people who have moved into the area will love it!
> (I'm sounding bitter today )


Their bid was all about local sustainability and involvement, but if tourists want to come along and gawk, I'm sure that will be fine too. 

If a recent pub conversation is anything to go by, I might be getting involved with this.


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## clandestino (Apr 14, 2014)

editor said:


> Grow:Brixton  won the competition.
> I think their proposals look pretty good.
> 
> 
> ...



It looks great, but isn't it going to be overshadowed by the apartment block that's going up in place of the Canterbury Arms? Good to see that the space is being used for something creative, though...


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## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

The architects who've helmed this project are also behind the infamous modernist house on Lyham Road.


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## boohoo (Apr 14, 2014)

editor said:


> Their bid was all about local sustainability and involvement, but if tourists want to come along and gawk, I'm sure that will be fine too.
> 
> If a recent pub conversation is anything to go by, I might be getting involved with this.



It sounds good and I'm sure these organisations have used all the right words to plug into any available funding and will do wonderful things however we were fairly laid back when the Spacemakers arrived and look what happened there!:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/brixton-village-granville-arcade-indoor-market-brixton.237936/


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## Tricky Skills (Apr 14, 2014)

The Edible Bus Stop folk are decent. They did a great job in fighting their corner to keep a patch of land along Landor Road in public use.

Some pics.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> The architects who've helmed this project are also behind the infamous modernist house on Lyham Road.


Ooh that house is ace. Would love to live in it


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## boohoo (Apr 14, 2014)

Tricky Skills I love what the edible bus stop has done in Landor Road. I'm not quite sure what is happening with their Norwood one but there it looks like lots of circular planting spaces are being created.


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## shygirl (Apr 14, 2014)

I thought they were going to give some of that area to car parking for market/shop staff?


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## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

shygirl said:


> I thought they were going to give some of that area to car parking for market/shop staff?


I believe that's what the grey area is. You can see the vehicle access point behind the "music box"


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## shygirl (Apr 14, 2014)

Ah, thanks, that's good.  The market federation have been fighting for car parking for  a long time, glad Lambeth hasn't gone back its word.  I love the plans, and have already signed up to do something there.   Its exciting.  And the team are VERY committed to ensuring that local projects/traders, etc take priority over 'outsiders'.


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## editor (Apr 15, 2014)

boohoo said:


> It sounds good and I'm sure these organisations have used all the right words to plug into any available funding and will do wonderful things however we were fairly laid back when the Spacemakers arrived and look what happened there!:


Entirely reasonable fears, although I don't think this project is really directly comparable with the Village.

I had a good chat with some of the people involved in the Edible Bus Stop and was rather encouraged.


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## editor (Jun 18, 2014)

More about what's been going on here:  Grow Brixton gears up and talks about its plans in a charming video


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## editor (Jul 28, 2014)

Update here: 
Planning app submitted for Grow Brixton food project


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## Crispy (Nov 27, 2014)

Latest banner on the fence reads
"Public Carpark Coming December 2014"


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## editor (Nov 27, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Latest banner on the fence reads
> "Public Carpark Coming December 2014"


I took a pic of that a while ago and was going to write up about it but haven't found any more detail.


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## Rushy (Nov 27, 2014)

I got an email asking for anyone interested in office space. I registered interest have not heard anything back yet - must have been 2-3 months ago.


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## leanderman (Nov 28, 2014)

Is Grow actually happening?


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## editor (Nov 28, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Is Grow actually happening?


As far as I know and it's going to be there for up to 5 years.


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## Tricky Skills (Dec 13, 2014)

All change!

This is actually pretty shoddy. There has been a 'difference in the style of management' between Carl Turner Architects and the Edible Bus Stop folk. It has led to the EBS walking away. Plans for Grow Brixton have now moved down to Loughborough Junction.

The Pope's Road site has now been re-branded Pop:Brixton. There is also a change in the aims. Rather than growing food, it appears to now be all about growing enterprise. The information pack for prospective tenants talks about £1m needing to be met by CTA.

What I find slightly uncomfortable is that CTA won the Meanwhile competition on the back of the Grow Brixton food idea. Plus planning permission was granted by Lambeth Council for a gardening / growing based concept.

It now seems that the Council is happy for the project and site development to continue under this new blatantly commercial approach.


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## madolesance (Dec 13, 2014)

Tricky Skills said:


> All change!
> 
> This is actually pretty shoddy. There has been a 'difference in the style of management' between Carl Turner Architects and the Edible Bus Stop folk. It has led to the EBS walking away. Plans for Grow Brixton have now moved down to Loughborough Junction.
> 
> ...



Some how this all comes as no surprise.


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## Rushy (Dec 13, 2014)

Tricky Skills said:


> All change!
> 
> This is actually pretty shoddy. There has been a 'difference in the style of management' between Carl Turner Architects and the Edible Bus Stop folk. It has led to the EBS walking away. Plans for Grow Brixton have now moved down to Loughborough Junction.
> 
> ...


I always understood the Grow proposal to have a significant business enterprise angle, didn't it?

Any more info on the differences which led to the spilt?


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## Tricky Skills (Dec 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I always understood the Grow proposal to have a significant business enterprise angle, didn't it?
> 
> Any more info on the differences which led to the spilt?



Nothing that EBS would be prepared to go on the record with. A delicate story.


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## Crispy (Dec 13, 2014)

Not surprised in the slightest


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## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2014)

Tricky Skills said:


> All change!
> 
> It now seems that the Council is happy for the project and site development to continue under this new blatantly commercial approach.



So all the great ideas for the site that won it for them will not happen is what it sounds like.

This reminds me of the Cressingham Gardens debate last Thursday on housing and regeneration.

One of the academics said that all the regeneration schemes he had looked at in London had all started out with a lot of promises. Then had ended up not living up to them.

Its also hardly a good start for Lambeth Councils "Future Brixton" to go along with this. If they do this on a "meanwhile" site what will happen when the actual "regeneration" of the Brixton Central site (which includes ice rink, Rec and railway arches) starts? Are all the promises of social benefits going to get watered down? Its likely to happen.


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## CH1 (Dec 13, 2014)

Gramsci said:


> So all the great ideas for the site that won it for them will not happen is what it sounds like.
> 
> Its also hardly a good start for Lambeth Councils "Future Brixton" to go along with this. If they do this on a "meanwhile" site what will happen when the actual "regeneration" of the Brixton Central site (which includes ice rink, Rec and railway arches) starts? Are all the promises of social benefits going to get watered down? Its likely to happen.


Wonder what exactly the friction was.

I am also wondering if there was some kind of rent required which would not have been easy to generate in a short term scheme around gardening etc (I did not study the bids - only guessing)

What happens about all those shipping containers piled up on the site now - are they what was needed for the ongoing project, or will they now have to be removed?


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## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Wonder what exactly the friction was.
> 
> I am also wondering if there was some kind of rent required which would not have been easy to generate in a short term scheme around gardening etc (I did not study the bids - only guessing)
> 
> What happens about all those shipping containers piled up on the site now - are they what was needed for the ongoing project, or will they now have to be removed?



I have looked at the original design statement. Planning Application here

The shipping containers are for the work/ live spaces etc so I guess they will stay. The design statement promises they will be "affordable". But there is no definition of what that is. So I reckon they will be let out on more commercial basis.

All the other promises in the design statement look not to be fulfilled. The actual planning application will probably be kept to.  It was all the promises in the design statement that will be watered down.

There is a difference between promises in a design statement and keeping to the letter of the agreed application.

What is disturbing about reading the design statement is how much of it depends on EBS being involved. Now they are gone the whole project is changed. It was EBS who made the project so inviting and won it imo.


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## Gramsci (Dec 14, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Wonder what exactly the friction was.
> 
> I am also wondering if there was some kind of rent required which would not have been easy to generate in a short term scheme around gardening etc (I did not study the bids - only guessing)



The design statement does not say how the project would have been kept going financially. Its vague on that. Other than promising "affordable" space. How? It also promised a lot of community benefits. ie community gardening etc. Which would not bring in much money to keep the project going. 

The design statement does say that using containers means the project has flexibility to adapt. Depending on how the site progresses when it used.


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## editor (Jan 13, 2015)

Caption, anyone?


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## editor (Jan 13, 2015)

I see Philippe Castaing, founder of Brixton Green, is now involved in this. And he wants to stick a hotel in there. I wonder if he was a catalyst for Grow Brixton moving out.

http://www.popbrixton.org/


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## snowy_again (Jan 13, 2015)

Ah I was going to ask about that having popped down to the market on Sunday - is there a plan for the shipping containers, or are they just there to brighten up the area?


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## editor (Jan 13, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Ah I was going to ask about that having popped down to the market on Sunday - is there a plan for the shipping containers, or are they just there to brighten up the area?


If Mr Brixton Green & Co get their way; a hotel, commercial units, studios, lots of things to make $$$$$ under that fabulously vague "affordable" tag. 

http://www.popbrixton.org/#!about/cee5


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## snowy_again (Jan 13, 2015)

I can't see the hotel reference?


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## snowy_again (Jan 13, 2015)

Ah it's on their twitter not the http://www.popbrixton.org/ site.


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## leanderman (Jan 13, 2015)

editor said:


> I see Philippe Castaing, founder of Brixton Green, is now involved in this. And he wants to stick a hotel in there. I wonder if he was a catalyst for Grow Brixton moving out.
> 
> http://www.popbrixton.org/



Time on his hands after shutting down Upstairs restaurant


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## CH1 (Jan 13, 2015)

editor said:


> I see Philippe Castaing, founder of Brixton Green, is now involved in this. And he wants to stick a hotel in there. I wonder if he was a catalyst for Grow Brixton moving out.
> http://www.popbrixton.org/


Sorry to be so unfashionable but I think it looks a mess.

The other night I was strolling by en route to the Beehive and caught a couple of yuppies pissing up against the container near the Brixton Station Road entrance. Pissed off at such vulgar behaviour from my superiors - but the gods of the universe clearly share my feelings on poorly parked shipping containers.

What is all this about live/work units? Are they fit for human habitation? How much will it cost to make them fit for human habitation in what is supposed to be a temporary project?


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## Tricky Skills (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm very disappointed that the original planning application has been allowed to stand. This was built around the Edible Bus Stop people and the concept of Grow Brixton. Basically it was a green agenda with the dreaded sustainability word. But it made sense as a community project.

Now it seems that Pop Brixton is all about enterprise. Many of the supporting comments from residents were composed around the idea of growing. The original application shouldn't be allowed to stand. Don't forget that this was a competition between three different projects. One of the the other bids had some interesting ideas about an exchange of tools and maintenance project.


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## Gramsci (Jan 22, 2015)

I see Tricky Skills lastest for Brixton Buzz features Cllr Jack Hopkins explaining what "Pop Brixton" is about. No mention of the original Grow Brixton.

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/01/...le-explanation-as-to-why-project-has-changed/



> “The POP Brixton project on Pope’s Road (previously known as GROW Brixton) is another exciting and innovative part of Lambeth’s approach to working with community partners and developers with a social conscience to provide a range of enterprise and community space, along with employment and training opportunities for local people.
> 
> The project is a practical exercise amongst others to bring social value into the supply chain with private sector partners and we expect this to influence how we can change policy and practice with respect to this, alongside developing Brixton Works with the Brixton Business Improvement District, the Community Development Trust being developed with Brixton Green on Somerleyton Road and the Impact Hub in Your New Town Hall”



So its all about business. 

What does this mean? Sounds like a load of New Labour jargon to me. Also sounds like privatisation if this meanwhile project is testing policy change



> The project is a practical exercise amongst others to bring social value into the supply chain with private sector partners and we expect this to influence how we can change policy and practice with respect to this


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## editor (Jan 23, 2015)

How the fuck does Brixton Green stretch their supposed stated aims to include being involved with this?


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## editor (Jan 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What does this mean? Sounds like a load of New Labour jargon to me. Also sounds like privatisation if this meanwhile project is testing policy change


Here's a Lambeth council spokesperson to explain all:


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## Manter (Jan 23, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Sorry to be so unfashionable but I think it looks a mess.
> 
> The other night I was strolling by en route to the Beehive and caught a couple of yuppies pissing up against the container near the Brixton Station Road entrance. Pissed off at such vulgar behaviour from my superiors - but the gods of the universe clearly share my feelings on poorly parked shipping containers.
> 
> What is all this about live/work units? Are they fit for human habitation? How much will it cost to make them fit for human habitation in what is supposed to be a temporary project?


Slight aside but you regularly see shipping containers* being used to live in, particularly, for some reason in the ex Soviet Union. Pretty horrible tbh- insulation pretty much impossible, so freezing/boiling at various parts of the year. It was a marker of economic progress last time I was in Georgia that many people had moved out of them and were using them as barns

*mostly maersk. Another one of the world's little mysteries


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> insulation pretty much impossible, so freezing/boiling at various parts of  the year


Who told you that? I designed an 8 container building last year in conjunction with a northern refurb company. They are pretty easy and cheap to insulate with standard lining products. Mine was a caravan by planning standards but designed to meet building control standards for a new house. Just needs to be done properly (like any insulation job).

I also meet a chap at a street party my girlfriend organised who lives in Container City. Set up for artists and creatives. Said is was extremely comfortable.


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## Manter (Jan 23, 2015)

I


Rushy said:


> Who told you that? I designed an 8 container building last year in conjunction with a northern refurb company. They are pretty easy and cheap to insulate with standard lining products. Mine was a caravan by planning standards but designed to meet building control standards for a new house. Just needs to be done properly (like any insulation job).


 I've spent time in them in the Middle East and Caucasus. Maybe it's just that doing them properly isn't an option for them.... But it was always a grim sight to see another village with seven or eight containers round it


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> I
> I've spent time in them in the Middle East and Caucasus. Maybe it's just that doing them properly isn't an option for them.... But it was always a grim sight to see another village with seven or eight containers round it


In the middle east, bar whole hog insulation and air conditioning, the most sensible thing to do would be to float a roof over the container to shade it. A builder friend of mine has done some of these in the Australian outback.


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## Manter (Jan 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> In the middle east, bar whole hog insulation and air conditioning, the most sensible thing to do would be to float a roof over the container to shade it. A builder friend of mine has done some of these in the Australian outback.


Interesting. I think the difference may be that in rich nations we use them as a green thing- reuse, repurposing etc- whereas in places like Syria, Armenia etc they use them because they have no other options for shelter.


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> Interesting. I think the difference may be that in rich nations we use them as a green thing- reuse, repurposing etc- whereas in places like Syria, Armenia etc they use them because they have no other options for shelter.


Of course - no different to any cheap building method.
But there's no doubt that they can be as comfortable as a normal house (and cheaper to build).


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## Manter (Jan 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Of course - no different to any cheap building method.
> But there's no doubt that they can be as comfortable as a normal house (and cheaper to build).


Interesting- I stand corrected. Having only seen them over here as pop ups, restaurants etc and only experienced them as dwellings in relatively deprived places, I think I had conflated 2 facts into an incorrect conclusion. 

Incidentally, do you know where they come from over here? Do the shopping companies dump them, or sell them off cheap when they are no longer for for purpose?


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> Interesting- I stand corrected. Having only seen them over here as pop ups, restaurants etc and only experienced them as dwellings in relatively deprived places, I think I had conflated 2 facts into an incorrect conclusion.
> 
> Incidentally, do you know where they come from over here? Do the shopping companies dump them, or sell them off cheap when they are no longer for for purpose?


The shipping companies tend to sell them in bulk to middlemen who sell them off to end users. I really don't know what makes them fit for shipping purpose but it surprises me what decent condition they often seem to be in. They vary but the worst ones tend, I think, to have already had a second hand use. The nice thing about them is that they are already a rigid watertight structure which, to some extent, you can chop about to stick openings in without a lot of skill.

Google image search container architecture. Or look on pinterest. There is some inspiring stuff.


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## Manter (Jan 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The shipping companies tend to sell them in bulk to middlemen who sell them off to end users. I really don't know what makes them fit for shipping purpose but it surprises me what decent condition they often seem to be in. They vary but the worst ones tend, I think, to have already had a second hand use. The nice thing about them is that they are already a rigid watertight structure which, to some extent, you can chop about to stick openings in without a lot of skill.
> 
> Google image search container architecture. Or look on pinterest. There is some inspiring stuff.


Sometimes I know it's just being in the wrong place- it costs a fortune to send empty containers back and the pattern tends to be large shipments to a single point in the west eg hamburg then a couple of stops to develop a shipment of sufficient size to go back east. The Northerner modelled routes and costs for one of the shipping companies years ago, but in those days they used to ship empty containers around, so not sure how the model works these days

I will


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

That makes sense. We need to export more (or buy less crap from abroad)!


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## CH1 (Jan 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> Slight aside but you regularly see shipping containers* being used to live in, particularly, for some reason in the ex Soviet Union. Pretty horrible tbh- insulation pretty much impossible, so freezing/boiling at various parts of the year. It was a marker of economic progress last time I was in Georgia that many people had moved out of them and were using them as barns
> 
> *mostly maersk. Another one of the world's little mysteries


Maersk is a huge Danish "logistics" conglomerate - formerly owned Netto (said to be regretting selling Netto UK to Asda, and planning a UK come-back).

Shipping containers - I think there is a charity using them to provide classrooms in South Africa?


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> Sometimes I know it's just being in the wrong place- it costs a fortune to send empty containers back and the pattern tends to be large shipments to a single point in the west eg hamburg then a couple of stops to develop a shipment of sufficient size to go back east. The Northerner modelled routes and costs for one of the shipping companies years ago, but in those days they used to ship empty containers around, so not sure how the model works these days
> 
> I will


This is the one my mate built in the outback
http://www.steel.com.au/showcase/projects/outpost-7427139


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## Manter (Jan 23, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Maersk is a huge Danish "logistics" conglomerate - formerly owned Netto (said to be regretting selling Netto UK to Asda, and planning a UK come-back).
> 
> Shipping containers - I think there is a charity using them to provide classrooms in South Africa?


Oh, I know lots about Maersk! Just not why it's their shipping containers that get half inched and end up in fields in the Caucasus.....


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## editor (Jan 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> This is the one my mate built in the outback
> http://www.steel.com.au/showcase/projects/outpost-7427139


That's very nice and blends into the countryside well. I wish I could afford a £140,000 'retreat.'


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

editor said:


> That's very nice and blends into the countryside well. I wish I could afford a £140,000 'retreat.'


Sell U75.


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

editor said:


> That's very nice and blends into the countryside well.


I'm sure the architect would value your thoughts on Australian vernacular.


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## snowy_again (Jan 23, 2015)

editor said:


> That's very nice and blends into the countryside well. I wish I could afford a £140,000 'retreat.'



There used to be healthy government grants to support people from the cities to have these things. My ex-pat brother in law built one and had it until he caught Lyme's Disease.


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## editor (Jan 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I'm sure the architect would value your thoughts on Australian vernacular.


  

Back on topic,  I'll post up some photos of the site later - I've just been past. I can't say it's a pretty picture at the moment


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## Manter (Jan 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> This is the one my mate built in the outback
> http://www.steel.com.au/showcase/projects/outpost-7427139


That's fantastic


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

Manter said:


> That's fantastic


Isn't it just! Dan was the foreman on my first ever project and still the best builder I have ever worked with. He's a master carpenter and great designer too.


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## editor (Jan 23, 2015)

Spot the difference in the reaction to the two near-identical responses.


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Spot the difference in the reaction to the two near-identical responses.


I truly don't believe that your comment was meant to be anything other but sneery. But if it was genuine, in the interest of equality, I apologise whole heartedly for not embracing it as enthusiastically as I did Manter's.


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## editor (Jan 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I truly don't believe that your comment was meant to be anything other but sneery. But if it was genuine, in the interest of equality, I apologise whole heartedly for not embracing it as enthusiastically as I did Manter's.


It wasn't fucking sneery. I think the work was really nicely done and that it fitted in well with its surroundings.  That's why I made the comment. If I thought it was shit I would have said so. 





Rushy said:


> I apologise whole heartedly for not embracing it as enthusiastically as I did Manter's.


Such sincerity.


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## Rushy (Jan 23, 2015)

editor said:


> It wasn't fucking sneery. I think the work was really nicely done and that it fitted in well with its surroundings.  That's why I made the comment. If I thought it was shit I would have said so. Such sincerity.


I'll be sure to pass on your kind comments.


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## editor (Jan 24, 2015)

Some photos from the site:

















Pop Brixton container park project in Pope’s Road, Brixton – eyesore or innovation?


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## Dexter Deadwood (Jan 24, 2015)

It's an almighty eyesore, a pop up piss take too far.
Local graffiti artist "Dope", some of whose work can be seen at the back of the Canterbury Arms, has expressed an interest to liven up the containers. I hope the powers that be give him that opportunity.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2015)

Manter said:


> Slight aside but you regularly see shipping containers* being used to live in, particularly, for some reason in the ex Soviet Union. Pretty horrible tbh- insulation pretty much impossible, so freezing/boiling at various parts of the year. It was a marker of economic progress last time I was in Georgia that many people had moved out of them and were using them as barns
> 
> *mostly maersk. Another one of the world's little mysteries



Dunno about insulation being impossible, as there's pretty much an industry developing in the US and Europe around container accommodation and various internal and external cladding, heating and ventilation schemes.  I wouldn't want to live on the Tundra in one, but somewhere with the normal weather range? Sure.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Of course - no different to any cheap building method.
> But there's no doubt that they can be as comfortable as a normal house (and cheaper to build).



Saw an architecture prog a couple of years back where a woman bought a plot of land and 5 containers, and made herself a nice modular home, externally-clad with mud-brick using the soil she'd dug out for the foundations. She also spent a load of time computer-modelling the interior to get the best functionality, so that once she'd settled on a layout she just got her fuck-off petrol angle grinder out and chopped holes on the inside and outside. Very impressive.


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## editor (Feb 9, 2015)

It's looking really ugly. Were there this many containers in the original plans?


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## CH1 (Feb 10, 2015)

Was it part of the plan that these shipping container retail units would be marketed by Goodsir's?
http://www.goodsircommercial.co.uk/properties/property/61463/S37.html
Goodsir's market just about every commercial property in Brixton (e.g. 400 and 354 Coldharbour Lane).
Where is the community element in all this? Sounds like a council-sponsored scam to me.
Please note that the site has the benefit of Brixton Overground station.
Chance would be a  fine thing!


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## Gramsci (Feb 10, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Was it part of the plan that these shipping container retail units would be marketed by Goodsir's?
> http://www.goodsircommercial.co.uk/properties/property/61463/S37.html
> Goodsir's market just about every commercial property in Brixton (e.g. 400 and 354 Coldharbour Lane).
> Where is the community element in all this? Sounds like a council-sponsored scam to me.
> ...



Looking at the brochure in the link this now looks to be a purely commercial venture. This is so crap. No mention in the brochure of any community involvement of any kind.

I do not understand this. As when Edible Bus stop left it was said that the planning approval meant that the project had to fulfil criteria for community involvement even though Edible Bus stop had left.

Have to see how it goes but there might be possibility of putting in complaint to planning about this if the project is not following the approved application.


----------



## editor (Feb 10, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Was it part of the plan that these shipping container retail units would be marketed by Goodsir's?
> http://www.goodsircommercial.co.uk/properties/property/61463/S37.html
> Goodsir's market just about every commercial property in Brixton (e.g. 400 and 354 Coldharbour Lane).
> Where is the community element in all this? Sounds like a council-sponsored scam to me.
> ...


I don't recall it being described as a "*commerce hub* providing a mixture of retail, offices, hotel and entertainment space for the community"


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## editor (Feb 10, 2015)

Does it bear any relation to the original winning concept?



> Consisting of Lambeth-based organisations, Carl Turner Architects, The Edible Bus Stop, Canteen and Engineers Structure Workshop, the winning Grow: Brixton bid aims to, “bring together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. “
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/04/...ansform-empty-space-at-popes-road-in-brixton/


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## Crispy (Feb 10, 2015)

I'll withold final judgement on the looks until they've finished, but I can't see anything to recommend it as a community scheme any more. It might be able to save face by providing a home for the Atlantic Road arch tenants if/when they get evicted, but that's not for a while yet, and I suspect the shipping containers will all be taken by vibrant young startups by that point.


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## Tricky Skills (Feb 21, 2015)

An update on the ever-changing Pope's Road project:

TEDx Brixton looks like being held at Pop:Brixton this year. A May opening for this site is looking likely. Pop:Brixton told me that they asked Lambeth Council to make a choice between the Pop and Grow Model. This isn't quite the view held by the Grow:Brixton people...

Property Management company The Collective are now on board. Brixton Green and Brixton Pound now appear to no longer be involved.

BBuzz piece.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Brixton Green,,,,now appear to no longer be involved.


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## cuppa tee (Feb 21, 2015)

editor said:


>



https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton--think-outside-the-box




> *WE LIVE TO REDEFINE THE WORLD*
> *for the young, the ambitious and the curious*





> Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything you’ve seen before; it’s own world. You feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. Around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.
> 
> Now stop imagining. Because as you read this, POP Brixton is coming to life in…you guessed it, Brixton. We’re partnering with award winning Carl-Turner Architects to deliver this one-of-a-kind project. What will emerge will effectively be a self-sufficient ‘mini city’ which brings together culture, enterprise, retail and even horticulture – all under one metaphorical roof.


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## editor (Feb 21, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton--think-outside-the-box


I think I've just sicked up a bit.


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## CH1 (Feb 21, 2015)

editor said:


> I think I've just sicked up a bit.


If I was a cynic I would suggest that this could be a "retail park" be prepared for dissident tenants of railway arches in need of gentrification.

I can't quite get past the immense ugliness of the site at present. I hope I have to eat my words.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 21, 2015)

CH1 said:


> If I was a cynic I would suggest that this could be a "retail park" be prepared for dissident tenants of railway arches in need of gentrification.
> 
> *I can't quite get past the immense ugliness of the site at present.* I hope I have to eat my words.


It's uglier than the multi storey carpark, that in itself is an achievement.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 22, 2015)




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## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2015)

editor said:


> I think I've just sicked up a bit.



Pah! It was so cutesy I had to jack up some insulin!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> It's uglier than the multi storey carpark, that in itself is an achievement.



I used to pass the car-park  on the way to work for 6 years, and the ugliness used to strike me afresh every time.


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## Gramsci (Feb 24, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I used to pass the car-park  on the way to work for 6 years, and the ugliness used to strike me afresh every time.



Reminds me I always used to notice the name "Bobby Sands" on the car park. I regret not getting a photo of that before it went.


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## blameless77 (Feb 25, 2015)

CH1 said:


> If I was a cynic I would suggest that this could be a "retail park" be prepared for dissident tenants of railway arches in need of gentrification.
> 
> I can't quite get past the immense ugliness of the site at present. I hope I have to eat my words.




I actually really like what they've done with the containers in elephant and castle (end of walworth road) - shame that replaced housing though!


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## CH1 (Feb 25, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> I actually really like what they've done with the containers in elephant and castle (end of walworth road) - shame that replaced housing though!


I will take a look next time I'm up there. Given the number of architects in that former café/ice skate shop on Brixton Station Road, they ought to be able to make it look better than it currently is.


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## Tricky Skills (Feb 25, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I will take a look next time I'm up there. Given the number of architects in that former café/ice skate shop on Brixton Station Road, they ought to be able to make it look better than it currently is.



Some of the staff in the former cafe/ice skate shop are sales folk - scrambling around trying to get any local business to help Carl Turner Architects recoup the £1m needed for the project to be deemed a success.


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## blameless77 (Feb 25, 2015)

http://kenningtonrunoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/The-Artworks-kenningtonrunoff.com_.jpg

is what it currently looks like up there.


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## peterkro (Feb 25, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Reminds me I always used to notice the name "Bobby Sands" on the car park. I regret not getting a photo of that before it went.


That was me and another posters Dad it was there for years.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2015)

If anyone feels inspired to 'draw inspiration from the vision for Pop Brixton':


> STREET ART  - OPEN CALL
> We Need You!
> 
> Street Art - Open Call
> ...


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## editor (Feb 27, 2015)

This was the original application:







And it's about twice/three times the size now. How can they do this?


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## soupdragon (Mar 20, 2015)

So, I heard that *Pop Brixton* aren’t offering any free period to anyone wanting to rent a space and are charging around £700 per month (plus rates) for a 20sq ft space in a shipping container. £8400 per year (not including rates). A little steep?

So all in to get going you probably need to have £50k to make a go of it in a pretty speculative off-plan sell situation, and with Network Rail potentially destroying the footfall up the front end of Station Road and that.

Even the *spacemakers* project offered 3 months rent free.

Which means that anyone going in there has got to be pretty "well capitalised", no?

Is that really a "supportive and inclusive place for local people"?

Is Lambeth involved in setting these terms and rents? Why no free period? What do Brixton Pound and Brixton Market Traders Federation think about it?


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## CH1 (Mar 20, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> So, I heard that *Pop Brixton* aren’t offering any free period to anyone wanting to rent a space and are charging around £700 per month (plus rates) for a 20sq ft space in a shipping container. £8400 per year (not including rates). A little steep?
> 
> So all in to get going you probably need to have £50k to make a go of it in a pretty speculative off-plan sell situation, and with Network Rail potentially destroying the footfall up the front end of Station Road and that.
> 
> ...


Seems fully commercial to me. Why didn't Lambeth just get on and develop it properly?


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2015)

*thread title edited to get it up to date.


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## Up the junction (Mar 20, 2015)

Looks like Hipster Central to me.


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## editor (Mar 20, 2015)

How's this for a great community project. 

Architects invited to exhibit for the RIBA London Summer Show at POP Brixton


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## CH1 (Mar 20, 2015)

editor said:


> How's this for a great community project.
> Architects invited to exhibit for the RIBA London Summer Show at POP Brixton


Where is the Shoreditch container park then? Need to get out now the sun is coming out - I'd like to see somewhere where this concept has been tried (successfuly?)

I am not convinced of RIBA's powers of regeneration. They did a competition to regenerate 336 Brixton Road about 6 years ago. Nothing has happened yet.


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## Peanut Monkey (Mar 20, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Where is the Shoreditch container park then? Need to get out now the sun is coming out - I'd like to see somewhere where this concept has been tried (successfuly?)
> 
> I am not convinced of RIBA's powers of regeneration. They did a competition to regenerate 336 Brixton Road about 6 years ago. Nothing has happened yet.



It's very near Shoreditch High Street Station on the Overground. You can get there from Denmark Hill. It's called the Boxpark. It's just a load of containers all painted black with fancy shops in. 

I've always thought it looks stupid. Not as stupid as Pope's Rd is currently looking though.

Never mind though, when it's finished we can look forward to doing this...
"Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything you’ve seen before; it’s own world. You feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. Around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”."


----------



## CH1 (Mar 21, 2015)

Seems Croydon is getting in on the act. Soon everywhere will have a Boxpark and it will be so dépassé
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...nces-modern-covent-garden-popup-10121856.html


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## Tricky Skills (Mar 23, 2015)

A change in the original planning application has now been submitted by Carl Turner Architects. Six extra shipping containers have been applied for.

It's interesting to see the commercial architectural practise is still using the copyrighted Grow:Brixton - a name that belongs to the Edible Bus Stop, the local group that had a 'difference in the style of management' with CTA.

There's a lot more to be told about this story.

Marriage guidance doesn't come cheap for a local authority 

BBuzz piece.


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2015)




----------



## Maharani (Mar 24, 2015)

.


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## CH1 (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm tempted to go to Shoreditch tomorrow to see the finished product in action. If I do I will report back.


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## Crispy (Mar 24, 2015)

That's an astonishing ripoff. It works out at £90/sq.ft/year (assuming a 20ft container), which is nearly twice the price of prime City offices. You'd have to be a complete mug to sign on at that price.


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## editor (Mar 25, 2015)

Crispy said:


> That's an astonishing ripoff. It works out at £90/sq.ft/year (assuming a 20ft container), which is nearly twice the price of prime City offices. You'd have to be a complete mug to sign on at that price.


I think we're the mugs for letting Lambeth and those architects get away with turning this 'community/eco' project into some unrelated commercial enterprise. 

Oh great, they'll be showing the winners of a private competition for RIBA soon. How very community minded. Just what the Brixton community is crying out for.


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 25, 2015)

Crispy said:


> That's an astonishing ripoff. It works out at £90/sq.ft/year (assuming a 20ft container), which is nearly twice the price of prime City offices. You'd have to be a complete mug to sign on at that price.



Rent includes high speed 100 MB internet, metered individual electricity supplies.


Each container includes:
High speed 100 MB internet access
Two double power points 
Ceiling lighting
Double glazed windows
Fully insulated walls, floors and ceilings 



Shared facilities include:
Disabled access for ground floor spaces
Site security; gate, fence, 24 hour access
Cycle storage
Toilets

Don't go bonkers promising too much now!!!!!! That's two double power points!!!!


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## Up the junction (Mar 25, 2015)

You've probably linked to this kind of thing but you can rent a windowed container for a fiver a day:

http://www.mac-containers.co.uk/container-hire.htm?

You obv. need to lease the land,insurance, put in utilities, etc.


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 25, 2015)

This is an abuse of human rights anywhere else....

....in Brixton it's a hipster shop front.


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## happyshopper (Mar 25, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> This is an abuse of human rights anywhere else....
> 
> ....in Brixton it's a hipster shop front.




It's a film actually.


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 25, 2015)

happyshopper said:


> It's a film actually.



Shh


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## CH1 (Mar 25, 2015)

I went to Boxpark at Shoreditch lunchtime today.

The set-up looks pretty smart. Ground floor is small boutiques art shops etc.
Upstairs is like a more communal version of Market Row. Specialist food & drink vendors in the spaces, apparently jointly using a sort of refectory type space for their customers. Seems a bit of open air up there as well so chefs etc desperate for a fag can get a crafty one in.

Didn't seem particularly busy when I was there - but probably heats after when the offices turn out at 5-6 pm I should think.

I can't yet see the Brixton project turning out like Shoreditch.

In Shoreditch the units are end on on the ground floor, creating a large number small but deep mini shop units. Upstairs is more spaciously arranged as I described above.

I must re-study the Brixton plans and try to see what they are getting at.

The photo of the Boxpark below is a publicity shot. Maybe if I can get it together to replace my broken camera I'll go back and do some proper photos.


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## Up the junction (Mar 25, 2015)

Fwiw, if you put 'boxpark' in Google images you get thousands of images.

'boxpark dubai' looks pretty cool as well ....


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## madolesance (Mar 25, 2015)

BoxPark Brixton seems like it's a little too late and massively becoming an attempt to profit from a business model that will not succeed.


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## CH1 (Mar 25, 2015)

It seems that it is intended to be a 5 year temporary project - which might limit its attractiveness to potential tenants I would have thought.

Compared to Shoreditch it is not so well located and also has more competition (i.e. the railway arches).

I think it will either take off or be scrapped within a year or so.
Interesting to see which.


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## Tricky Skills (Mar 26, 2015)

Another twist.

Lambeth Council is going to allow a waiver so that Carl Turner Architects will get paid £100,000 to house Impact Hub Brixton at Pope's Road. Your Nu Town Hall will soon mean that Impact Hub in the basement will be no more. The Council thinks that POP:Brixton will be the perfect solution. At least it helps to fill a space...

CTA will be paid £100k for agreeing to this.

BBuzz piece.


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## CH1 (Mar 26, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Another twist.
> Lambeth Council is going to allow a waiver so that Carl Turner Architects will get paid £100,000 to house Impact Hub Brixton at Pope's Road. Your Nu Town Hall will soon mean that Impact Hub in the basement will be no more. The Council thinks that POP:Brixton will be the perfect solution. At least it helps to fill a space...
> CTA will be paid £100k for agreeing to this.
> BBuzz piece.


They are trying to guarantee custom, but I would have thought POP:Brixton was not very congenial compared to the old Impact Hub for "hot desking".

You are right to query the ethics of re designating funding.


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## Up the junction (Mar 26, 2015)

What about the 'impact' on rental prices and/or membership- is Lambeth getting any guarantees for the hundred grand waiver?

http://brixton.impacthub.net/spaces/


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## Crispy (Mar 27, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Another twist.
> 
> Lambeth Council is going to allow a waiver so that Carl Turner Architects will get paid £100,000 to house Impact Hub Brixton at Pope's Road. Your Nu Town Hall will soon mean that Impact Hub in the basement will be no more. The Council thinks that POP:Brixton will be the perfect solution. At least it helps to fill a space...
> 
> ...


Nitpick: not 20sqft, but 20x8=160sqft


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## Gramsci (Mar 27, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Another twist.
> 
> Lambeth Council is going to allow a waiver so that Carl Turner Architects will get paid £100,000 to house Impact Hub Brixton at Pope's Road. Your Nu Town Hall will soon mean that Impact Hub in the basement will be no more. The Council thinks that POP:Brixton will be the perfect solution. At least it helps to fill a space...
> 
> ...



I do wonder why the proposal to move Impact Hub to the "meanwhile" space was not in the original planning application.

Also the funding to move it to this site is partly funded by the Council "High Streets" fund. Does this this temporary use of this site count as High street? Surely any grant funding to support the shopping area should go to the existing shop not Impact Hub or Pop Brixton. This site is for a temporary use until building on site starts. So the use of a High Street fund on it will not have long lasting benefit to Brixton retail sector.

It all sounds to me that Pop Brixton was never a viable project. The Council do not want it to fail as this would be an embarrassment to them. Hence the "waiver".


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## CH1 (Mar 29, 2015)

Something a bit odd down there right now. One of the containers is perched perilously across the Popes Road/Brixton Station Road corner @ 45°
Corner traffic sign has gone for a burton. Safety barriers in evidence.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 1, 2015)

They seem to have unlimited funds. They have got rid of the crane and are now using the army to position the shipping containers.


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## Tricky Skills (Apr 1, 2015)

Carl Turner Architects appears to have a different landlord arrangement with Lambeth Council compared to what it is offering itself.

The architect uses the old skate shop along Pope's Road - _purely for Pop:Brixton work you understand, and definitely not for any non-Brixton activities._

Lambeth Council rents out the space to CTA at a rates for mates deal. The Council set the annual market value at £12,000 for a space that is approximately three times the size of one of the shipping containers that CTA is pimping out.

Plus I hope that CTA hasn't got a waiver on business rates from the Council...


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## Gramsci (Apr 2, 2015)

Article in Brixton Blog 




> Stuart Everitt, director of Marmalade Productions a small film production company in Brixton, said that he was attracted to POP Brixton because it was sold as a community venture with opportunities for smaller businesses to find a home with reasonable rents.
> 
> Everitt said: “There was an enormous application process but there is no actual indication of what the rents would be.”
> 
> ...



Brixton Greens Castaing now "commercial director of Pop Brixton" said:



> “We can’t do social enterprise unless we make money. Unless you charge a lot to people who can pay it, you can’t support the smaller and community-based businesses.
> 
> “There is an obsession over how much we charge per unit but it is bigger than that, it is how many jobs are we creating here, how many hours of free community workshops are we doing – that’s what people should look at. ”



Sounds slightly irritated with the questioning. 

They are getting the site cheap from the Council. Its not like they are having to pay commercial market rate for the land. I still do not understand where the rental figures come from. Nor does it sound like there are set rents for the containers easily available to quote. 

Are they creating jobs? I thought that was down to the business renting the space. I have yet to see what the number of hours community workshops Pop will do.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 2, 2015)

We must never question the wealth creator's magic, if we do the jobs will disappear before our very eyes and then where would we be?


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## Up the junction (Apr 2, 2015)

Just from that he sounds the architypal snake oil salesman; total blagger.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2015)

A little opinion piece: 
Pop Brixton gets bigger and uglier as more shipping containers pile up


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## CH1 (Apr 2, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Article in Brixton Blog
> Brixton Greens Castaing now "commercial director of Pop Brixton"


The only director declared to Companies House is Carl Turner - see below
Maybe they are as late complying with the Companies Act as they are in getting the site into action.


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## Twattor (Apr 2, 2015)

editor said:


> A little opinion piece:
> Pop Brixton gets bigger and uglier as more shipping containers pile up



Rubbish really.  Another example of sham consultation to get locals on side by selling them interactive community driven proposals, then once the concept is established vary the proposals to do whatever they want to maximise commercial potential.  This sort of thing annoys me.


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## editor (Apr 2, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Brixton Greens Castaing now "commercial director of Pop Brixton" said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What are these "free community workshops" that need to be financed so heavily?


----------



## Up the junction (Apr 2, 2015)

It's looking more like a cross between Camp Bastion and Tilbury Docks every time I go past.


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 2, 2015)

Looks like the set of Auf Wiedersehen, Pet


----------



## steeeve (Apr 2, 2015)

Or a fort from mad max 2


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## Nanker Phelge (Apr 2, 2015)

steeeve said:


> Or a fort from mad max 2


----------



## ibilly99 (Apr 2, 2015)

editor said:


> I think I've just sicked up a bit.



One for Private Eye's Pseud's Corner - outright winner in the Nathan Barley spouting shit category - that series said it all laid out the world we are now in.
_
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.


 George Orwell _

_Plus all the post modern hipster crap one could never want to eat on their website - thank God I'm old and cynical. _

_https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist_


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2015)

> So how do you fit into POP Brixton? Well, if you’re a startup looking for a cool, retro office/studio space surrounded by a constant buzz of creativity, then look no further (although, as the name implies, Brixton locals will get first dibs). If you’re a retailer looking to ‘pop up’ in a new venue, where footfall, by virtue of location alone, is guaranteed, then POP’s your place. And if, like most of us, you just want to have fun with friends, and unwind over good food and a few drinks whilst experiencing something different, then keep an eye out because coming soon…POP Brixton.


https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton--think-outside-the-box

Did anyone find out if they intended to pay the artists for their "street art competition" to paint the corporate boxes?
https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton-street-art-competition


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## Twattor (Apr 2, 2015)

editor said:


> https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton--think-outside-the-box
> 
> Did anyone find out if they intended to pay the artists for their "street art competition" to paint the corporate boxes?
> https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton-street-art-competition



My God. Everything about that sound horrendous. Can I opt out?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 2, 2015)

Poop Brixton - It's entrepreneurial vandalism.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 2, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> We must never question the wealth creator's magic, if we do the jobs will disappear before our very eyes and then where would we be?



Down the pub.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 2, 2015)

Does anyone know what is happening to the old laundry next to the village entrance on CH Lane?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 2, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Does anyone know what is happening to the old laundry next to the village entrance on CH Lane?


Redevelopment as flats.


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## CH1 (Apr 2, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Does anyone know what is happening to the old laundry next to the village entrance on CH Lane?


Funnily enough there is a planning application in but to my knowledge it has not been advertised. Perhaps it is in the 2/4/15 Weekender? Anyway the deadline for comments is 6th April.

15/01252/FUL | Demolition of the rear part of the former Walton Lodge Laundry building, erection of a 3-storey plus basement rear extension and change of use of the retained listed frontage building to provide 1296sqm of new Class B1 (business) floorspace, 13 self-contained dwellings (Use Class C3) and a new cafe/restaurant unit (Use Class A) within the retained facade building, together with associated hard landscaping, cycle and waste storage. | 374 Coldharbour Lane London SW9 8PL

http://planning.lambeth.gov.uk/onli...tails.do?activeTab=dates&keyVal=NKL0K7BOH6A00

Thanks for bringing it up. So far there are only 2 comments - both from people living in Brixton Square, and both supporting


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## Twattor (Apr 2, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Funnily enough there is a planning application in but to my knowledge it has not been advertised. Perhaps it is in the 2/4/15 Weekender? Anyway the deadline for comments is 6th April.
> 
> 15/01252/FUL | Demolition of the rear part of the former Walton Lodge Laundry building, erection of a 3-storey plus basement rear extension and change of use of the retained listed frontage building to provide 1296sqm of new Class B1 (business) floorspace, 13 self-contained dwellings (Use Class C3) and a new cafe/restaurant unit (Use Class A) within the retained facade building, together with associated hard landscaping, cycle and waste storage. | 374 Coldharbour Lane London SW9 8PL
> 
> ...




this is Walton lodge.  There have definitly been threads devoted to this, and if I wasn't such a luddite i'd link to them. editor help pls.

eta: superseded by people better skilled with teh internet


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## CH1 (Apr 2, 2015)

Twattor said:


> this is Walton lodge.  There have definitly been threads devoted to this, and if I wasn't such a luddite i'd link to them. editor help pls.


I've copied it across (not knowing how to link) so the Walton thread is back up.


----------



## Maharani (Apr 2, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Funnily enough there is a planning application in but to my knowledge it has not been advertised. Perhaps it is in the 2/4/15 Weekender? Anyway the deadline for comments is 6th April.
> 
> 15/01252/FUL | Demolition of the rear part of the former Walton Lodge Laundry building, erection of a 3-storey plus basement rear extension and change of use of the retained listed frontage building to provide 1296sqm of new Class B1 (business) floorspace, 13 self-contained dwellings (Use Class C3) and a new cafe/restaurant unit (Use Class A) within the retained facade building, together with associated hard landscaping, cycle and waste storage. | 374 Coldharbour Lane London SW9 8PL
> 
> ...


Hmmm, not social housing then. It looks like a listed building but it can't be if they are applying to excavate a basement. 

Thanks for that CH1. I shall put my objections in.


----------



## editor (Apr 9, 2015)

So, property development and management company The Collective are also involved. 


> As a property development and management company we build great places to live, work and play.
> 
> At the heart of our business is our unique Shared Living product – a new form of rental accommodation targeted at ambitious young professionals looking for a genuinely affordable, fantastically designed and hassle-free place to live in central London.
> 
> If we are not playing we are working, so the workspace we develop is underpinned by the same logic driving us to create affordable and flexible workspace for individuals with brilliant ideas.





> The Collective is investing in POP Brixton to support CTA in delivering this exciting community-led project which is perfectly in line with The Collective's ethos of empowering others to realise their own ambitions.
> 
> The Collective is an innovative property development and management company, which seeks to redefine the way people live, work and play.
> The Collective is investing in POP Brixton to support CTA in delivering this exciting community-led project which is perfectly in line with The Collective's ethos of empowering others to realise their own ambitions.
> ...


And in between all those paying tenants, they want people to volunteer their services for free so they can at least  honour some of the original green ambitions of the project:


> Pop Farm is the greening strategy and community gardening element of Pop Brixton. Our approach to creating a verdant, planted and productive garden amidst the containers and concrete of Brixton involves the following:
> 
> • Pop Farm will engage with the public as part of a longer term initiative to educate, inform and share food and plant growing knowledge in the community.
> 
> ...


----------



## CH1 (Apr 10, 2015)

The Collective LLP seems to have grandeur considerably in excess of Popup Brixton's - at least so far.

Chief Executive Rez Merchant says he was a mentor for the Prince of Wales Trust.
He studied at London School of Economics, and his favourite past-time is going to house music festivals and clubs.

The company offices at 14 Bedford Square "Fitzrovia" are somewhat more grand than Pope's Road:

They don't say whether they own or lease the offices, but they do gush:
After much anticipation, we finally moved into our incredible new office at 14 Bedford Square, representing a big milestone in our journey to date.

17 November, 2014 – The Collective, the progressive property development and management company specialising in high-quality and affordable shared living for young professionals in London, has moved to a beautiful Grade I listed building at 14 Bedford Square.

The 10,000 sq ft of office space in prestigious Fitzrovia, will act as HQ for The Collective’s rapidly expanding team. The grand Georgian building, which has been fully refurbished, also incorporates a contemporary annex with large lateral floorplates and floor to ceiling glazed facade. 14 Bedford Square redefines the traditional office space by providing a range of both grand and avant-garde meeting rooms, flexible event space and amenities including a champagne bar and ‘psychedelic bistro’. The area itself benefits from both the quiet elegance of the square and the lively buzz around Soho.

In keeping with the firm’s passion for supporting entrepreneurship, the interior has been designed by up-and-coming design and architecture practice, DH Liberty. The young practice was founded two years ago by ex-Foster and Partners architect Dara Huang. The team, which is also collaborating with The Collective on its 323 unit scheme going up in Old Oak Common, has designed a unique setting within the building and showcases The Collective’s desire to innovate at every turn.

14 Bedford Square provides a platform for founder and CEO at The Collective, 25 year old Reza Merchant, to extend his support in the start-up world through his mentoring at the Prince’s Trust and launch The Collective Elevator. The Elevator will aim to support creative and dynamic start-ups on their journey to success by investing in and incubating them within the building. Through the Elevator, The Collective continues to empower others to realise their own ambitions.

Reza Merchant comments: “This move represents a huge milestone for the company. Looking back over the past four years it’s incredible how quickly and organically we have evolved into what we are today. We want this building to embody everything The Collective stands for, hence the ground-breaking design in partnership with DH Liberty, and the exciting, collaborative atmosphere we will create by providing aspiring entrepreneurs with an unparalleled working environment in a prime location in central London.”

As well as the change in address, this week has also seen the unveiling of a brand new The Collective logo, which symbolises The Collective’s journey since it was initially founded out of a library at the London School of Economics in 2010.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 10, 2015)

editor said:


> " The centrepiece of the scheme is a grand polytunnel, raised above containers, providing seating for diners. Interior planting will feature more exotic species."


This sounds quite avant garde. Can't wait.
Maybe we should ask for reduced dining rates for indigent locals on Mondays?


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## cuppa tee (Apr 10, 2015)

I see Pop brixton has a playlist on spotify, but the tune it makes me think of isn't on there............



> _He's an artist, a pioneer
> We've got to have some music on the new frontier
> 
> Well I can't wait 'til I move to the city
> ...


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## editor (Apr 14, 2015)

I just walked past the site again. It is MASSIVE. Waaaay bigger than the original plans.


----------



## madolesance (Apr 17, 2015)

What's the connection between 'Pop Brixton' and 'Opus'? apart from someone who was also involved in 'Brixton Green'?


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## Tricky Skills (Apr 17, 2015)

Life is life, I guess


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## editor (Apr 21, 2015)

Planning notice letting them build up to four stories high. First time I've seen it but deadline for comments passed on 7th April.


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## editor (Apr 21, 2015)

The Towering Shopping Containers of Vibrant Brixton


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## BigMoaner (Apr 21, 2015)

Its like somethi g off the docks


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## Up the junction (Apr 21, 2015)

It really is extraordinarily ugly.

I keep expecting to see Beadie from The Wire patrolling around.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 21, 2015)

That's pop up shit is vibrant


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## cuppa tee (Apr 26, 2015)

Pop Brixton license application here.................http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/brl-redacted-application-Prem1852.pdf
representations by 29-04-15


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## editor (Apr 26, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Pop Brixton license application here.................http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/brl-redacted-application-Prem1852.pdf
> representations by 29-04-15


I bet the flats nearby will be delighted to have a new extra-vibrant facility on their doorstep.


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## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> That's pop up shit is vibrant


Vibrant as a loud wet fart during a wedding ceremony.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

are they vibrant inside or just bog standard community hubs?


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## Dexter Deadwood (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Vibrant as a loud wet fart during a wedding ceremony.



You've painted a picture there.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

shit just got vibrant.


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## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> are they vibrant inside or just bog standard community hubs?


Can't they be both?  I thought that "vibrant" was an intergral part of your typical bog standard community hub these days.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 26, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Can't they be both?  I thought that "vibrant" was an intergral part of your typical bog standard community hub these days.


i suppose they ruddy well can be!


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## Up the junction (Apr 26, 2015)

You can appreciate specific, well-grounded objections but it totally feels like some Paul Whitehouse old man's comedy sketch in this thread - has anything good ever happened in Brixton that wasn't here 20 years ago? The merest whiff of change and peoples' dentures fall in their soup.


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## cuppa tee (Apr 26, 2015)

sorry but you are not making sense, one minute it's
" the people running pop Brixton are total chancers"
the next it's this......


Up the junction said:


> You can appreciate specific, well-grounded objections but it totally feels like some Paul Whitehouse old man's comedy sketch in this thread - has anything good ever happened in Brixton that wasn't here 20 years ago? The merest whiff of change and peoples' dentures fall in their soup.


on the road closures it's "locals only please"
but when it comes to " reclaim Brixton" you are questioning who the locals are reclaiming Brixton from and accusing posters of being Ukip, can you clarify plz ?


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## Up the junction (Apr 26, 2015)

You don't need me to clarify that sometimes change is good and sometimes it's not. It depends on a lot of factors, including how well thought through the change is.


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## Greebo (Apr 26, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> You can appreciate specific, well-grounded objections but it totally feels like some Paul Whitehouse old man's comedy sketch in this thread <snip>


For the millionth time, stop exaggerating!


----------



## CH1 (Apr 28, 2015)

Rather lame puff on page 22 of today's Standard. They don't even seem to have put it into the on-line version.
"Boxing clever: 'Creative Campus' in Brixton made of containers".


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## BigMoaner (Apr 28, 2015)

"creative campus". that's a new one.


----------



## boohoo (Apr 28, 2015)

Croydon is getting one of these boxpark thingies (because Croydon surely doesn't have enough shops!)


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## Dan U (Apr 28, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Croydon is getting one of these boxpark thingies (because Croydon surely doesn't have enough shops!)


At least the Croydon one is more straightforward, it's just a retail and street food space and it has always been just that. 

This seems to have had a somewhat more difficult history and what it is now isn't what was originally proposed.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 28, 2015)

Plus the 'transition' from Grow to Pop hasn't exactly been smooth. This is incredibly delicate. There's a bit of a jaw dropping story there waiting to be told.

Waiting...


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## BigMoaner (Apr 28, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Croydon is getting one of these boxpark thingies (because Croydon surely doesn't have enough shops!)


the one in shoreditch is a bit naff tbh. i play football around there and i walk past along with HUNDREDS of others on the same pavement and there's always about three people in the very expensive cargo box things.


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## editor (Apr 28, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> the one in shoreditch is a bit naff tbh. i play football around there and i walk past along with HUNDREDS of others on the same pavement and there's always about three people in the very expensive cargo box things.


Yep. They're awful. Soulless and bland.


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## BigMoaner (Apr 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Yep. They're awful. Soulless and bland.





editor said:


> Yep. They're awful. Soulless and bland.


i dont mind soulless and bland. its when it's soulless and bland but trying to the exact opposite that it becomes a bit meh


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## editor (Apr 29, 2015)

Excellent piece here 
New Zealand wine business crowd funds £42,000 to move into ‘community business park’ aka Pop:Brixton


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## Gramsci (Apr 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Excellent piece here
> New Zealand wine business crowd funds £42,000 to move into ‘community business park’ aka Pop:Brixton



So Cllr Hopkins has rebranded it a



> _a community business park for the 21st century_



Council did not ask the local community about this change.

A bit disappointed that Brixton Pound have gone along with this ( they are on the steering group).


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## tompound (Apr 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> A bit disappointed that Brixton Pound have gone along with this ( they are on the steering group).



We were on the original steering group when it was under the Grow banner Gramsci, and EBS beside, it remains the same organisations/individuals still on it. As you will probably know, steering groups are not there to simply rubber stamp or endorse everything that is happening. It is a very critical group. We've pushed hard on things like making sure there is a diverse mix of businesses on the site, that there is a very strong local makeup (and it will be overwhelmingly local), that young people and local schools either have direct opportunities or at least feel welcome on the site, and of course that all traders are signed up to accept the Brixton Pound. I am pretty confident that all of this will be delivered. Proof will be in the pudding I guess.


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## leanderman (Apr 30, 2015)

tompound said:


> Proof will be in the pudding I guess.



Koi Ramen, a bit of a feature on Brixton Station rd, is making the move to Pop Brixton.


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## Gramsci (May 3, 2015)

tompound said:


> We were on the original steering group when it was under the Grow banner Gramsci, and EBS beside, it remains the same organisations/individuals still on it. As you will probably know, steering groups are not there to simply rubber stamp or endorse everything that is happening. It is a very critical group. We've pushed hard on things like making sure there is a diverse mix of businesses on the site, that there is a very strong local makeup (and it will be overwhelmingly local), that young people and local schools either have direct opportunities or at least feel welcome on the site, and of course that all traders are signed up to accept the Brixton Pound. I am pretty confident that all of this will be delivered. Proof will be in the pudding I guess.



EBS were major part of it. IMO why it won against the other short listed proposal. Its now more like the proposal that lost. If I had been the loser I would feel a bit irritated now.

Its also shaping up to look nothing like the original plans.

The original plans used the containers in a way that did not dominate that corner. They are lower on the street side and higher further up. It was designed as a space that people would feel welcome to wander into. It now looks like closed off space rather than open and inviting. This is radical design change. Of a project that was put forward as an architectural proposal of how to use a site.

The growing area was also a big part of the look of the development. That has diminished.

It was a proposal emphasizing community with some commercial workspace now its more commercial with a possibility of some community space.


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## SpamMisery (May 3, 2015)

Is there a list of businesses currently expected to be part of this? I saw the couple who ran Upstairs are involved - good to see them back!


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## leanderman (May 3, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Is there a list of businesses currently expected to be part of this? I saw the couple who ran Upstairs are involved - good to see them back!



Seems mainly food (and wine) places so far, in line with our consumption-based society.


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## editor (May 6, 2015)

Just a reminder of the original promise:


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## editor (May 7, 2015)

The Londonist reports:

"*Popping into Brixton*
Nanban won’t be Brixton’s only foodie arrival. New hub Pop Brixton – which is constructed from shipping containers in a similar way to Boxpark in Shoreditch and The Artworks in Elephant & Castle – will become home to at least three restaurants and a wine shop in the next few weeks. All three of the confirmed restaurants will be run by established street food traders who are bedding down for the first time: Zoe’s Ghana Kitchen, Miss P’s Barbecue and Donostia Social Club. The New Zealand Cellar will sell exclusively Kiwi wines. Looks like the Village could have some competition on its hands…"

Some of the  businesses:


> Born from creating a ‘pop-up’ Ghanaian restaurant in my live/workspace in Hackney Wick in the summer of 2011 as part of Hackney Wicked Arts Festival
> http://zoesghanakitchen.co.uk/about/





Miss P is from Norwood (someone local!) and obviously the NZ lot have no connections with the area.


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## Crispy (May 7, 2015)

"In the next few weeks" - Really? They'd better get one hell of a move on.


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## Mr Retro (May 7, 2015)

Crispy said:


> "In the next few weeks" - Really? They'd better get one hell of a move on.


Was thinking exactly the same thing. I passed last night and they look many months away from being ready. Maybe these things come together quickly in the end?


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## Nanker Phelge (May 7, 2015)

Seems to me the only things about to go pop are people's bellys!!!


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## editor (May 7, 2015)

"Street food". My, that sounds jolly edgy.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 7, 2015)

Jolly Edgy is probably the name of a dish...


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## stuff_it (May 7, 2015)

editor said:


> "Street food". My, that sounds jolly edgy.


Bring back the roti van!!


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## Chilavert (May 7, 2015)

editor said:


> "Street food". My, that sounds jolly edgy.


How?


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## Up the junction (May 7, 2015)

How do you do the cooking in stacked metal containers - I fancy it could get a little warm.


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## editor (May 7, 2015)

stuff_it said:


> Bring back the roti van!!


It would have to be rebranded to compete in the nu-Brixton pop-up world. 'Roti Street Food' already sounds better. No, make that "Roti Street Food Pop Up Kitchen." Perfect.  The food sounds tastier and more contemporary already.


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## Lucy Fur (May 7, 2015)




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## Up the junction (May 7, 2015)

actually, do you want to eat at all in a stacked metal container ...


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> How do you do the cooking in stacked metal containers - I fancy it could get a little warm.


Given that they'll hopefully be forced to abide by normal hygiene and safety rules, they will probably have forced ventilation.


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## Gramsci (May 7, 2015)

Put this up on the Brixton news thread already:

There is a Q&A set up by Reclaim Brixton Wednesday 13th Nov



> Reclaim Brixton have arranged an open to the public Q&A with Philippe Castaing Commercial Director of the much whispered about POP BRIXTON storage container campus to open shortly on Popes Road.
> 
> This is your chance to hear from the horses mouth the projects intentions and see if they and Lambeth really have the communities interest at heart and how they will continue to engage to commit to their remit.
> 
> There will be fixed questions forwarded by people to Pop Brixton with an open Q&A at the end.


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## DietCokeGirl (May 10, 2015)

Apparently the opening date is scheduled for 23rd of May. Interestingly, once traders 'applications' have been 'accepted', they are responsible entirely for fitting out the empty container shell - so adding flooring, ceiling, utilities, lighting, wiring, the lot. This of course adds to the initial outlay, making it harder for genuine start-ups. Also know of at least one trader there who felt pressurised to increase her rent offer once she was told they wanted to accept her business plan. It's a very exploitative way of working as a landlord.


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## Crispy (May 10, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Apparently the opening date is scheduled for 23rd of May. Interestingly, once traders 'applications' have been 'accepted', they are responsible entirely for fitting out the empty container shell - so adding flooring, ceiling, utilities, lighting, wiring, the lot. This of course adds to the initial outlay, making it harder for genuine start-ups. Also know of at least one trader there who felt pressurised to increase her rent offer once she was told they wanted to accept her business plan. It's a very exploitative way of working as a landlord.


It's not uncommon practice for the tennant to pay for the fit-out, but usually it's in return for a rent-free period of equal value.


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## DietCokeGirl (May 10, 2015)

Crispy said:


> It's not uncommon practice for the tennant to pay for the fit-out, but usually it's in return for a rent-free period of equal value.


True, but I was really surprised that these boxes really are a total shell - not even a basic floor or ceiling. Generally, renting a unit in a managed market space you have a bit more to start you off with - at least proper concrete flooring and ceiling/ceiling tiles and some plug sockets - and can then refit that as your budget allows. Of course if you're a big player, it's easy to refurbish a run down space and remodel it completely to your needs but for the kind of trading level you'd expect to see in a market space it seems an unfair burden that would price smaller individuals out.


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## leanderman (May 10, 2015)

Their Twitter feed seems to be claiming that a garden/green project is coming to the site.


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## Rushy (May 13, 2015)

Q&A today I think.
11 am, Market House.


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## leanderman (May 13, 2015)

Seen lots of tweets this week from food places setting up in there.


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## madolesance (May 13, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Q&A today I think.
> 11 am, Market House.



I thought the q+a is at 7pm


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## Rushy (May 13, 2015)

madolesance said:


> I thought the q+a is at 7pm


Thought it was a weird time. Facebook page says today 11-12.30 but then also says in 10 hrs. Maybe Facebook has my time zone wrong?

Between me and Gramsci we are going to ensure no one turns up. (He said it is on 13 November).


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## CH1 (May 13, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Thought it was a weird time. Facebook page says today 11-12.30 but then also says in 10 hrs. Maybe Facebook has my time zone wrong?
> 
> Between me and Gramsci we are going to ensure no one turns up. (He said it is on 13 November).


https://roundtown.com/event/7684205/QA-with-POP-BRIXTON-London-UK
2pm according to that. Any more offers?


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## Rushy (May 13, 2015)

CH1 said:


> https://roundtown.com/event/7684205/QA-with-POP-BRIXTON-London-UK
> 2pm according to that. Any more offers?


Brilliant .


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## Up the junction (May 13, 2015)

Did I glimpse a dome like shape yesterday rising above the middly area?


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## editor (May 13, 2015)

It's definitely 7pm-8.30pm. Is anyone going tonight?


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## editor (May 13, 2015)

Here's what the hub will offer. Street food! But not in a street! Crazy!  


10 street food kiosks
6 cafes/restaurants
4 bars
7 retailers
2 pop up retail spaces
19 offices (inc 5 tech space/ hubs) 
2 workshops
4 studios
An art Gallery
Event Space
Greenhouse  - Pop Farm, planted and cultivated by local people and school children  throughout the project.
Horticultural Gardens
Training Hub
Buskers Corner


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## SpamMisery (May 13, 2015)

Does anyone know who/what the 7 retailers are?


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## editor (May 13, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Does anyone know who/what the 7 retailers are?


Well, one is the 'hyperlocal' New Zealand wine importer.


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## Belushi (May 13, 2015)

Brixton is such a destination nowadays..


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## CH1 (May 13, 2015)

editor said:


> It's definitely 7pm-8.30pm. Is anyone going tonight?


If its 7 - 8.30 I think I will.

It clashes with a Loughborough Junction meeting at Marcus Lipton organised by Fluid though.

Maybe it will be more interesting listening to Monsieur Garstaing's views on the container park development (and feedback)  rather than yet another exercise in putting playing cards on a gentrification map of LJ.

(Where can we have more private housing, where can we evict some motor repair workshops sort of thing)

Re: Loughborough Junction Masterplan
We are delighted that you are interested in becoming further involved in the development of a masterplan for Loughborough Junction.
The first workshop on the Loughborough Junction Masterplan will take place on Wednesday 13th May 2015 at the Marcus Lipton Youth Hub on Minet Road, SW9 7UH. Registration for the event will commence at 6.30pm with the workshop style meeting beginning at 7.00pm. We envisage the event will last approximately 2 hours.
We would appreciate if you could let us know if you are able to attend so we can plan the event and ensure we have enough refreshments for everyone! You can register your place through Eventbrite here, email us at ljmasterplan@fluidoffice.com or telephone the Loughborough Junction Masterplan Team on 020 7729 0770 to let us know if you can make it.
This event will give you an opportunity to meet the design team and exchange ideas about the area with them and council officers. We greatly appreciate you taking the time to become involved in the development of the Loughborough Junction Masterplan.


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## editor (May 13, 2015)

A 'buskers corner' now seems _de rigeu_r for any new hip development, and the benefits are obvious.

Net outlay for the landlord = next to nothing.
Running costs = nothing.
Cost of hiring musicians = nothing
'Giving a voice to artists' and 'look what we're offering the community' PR value = high.


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## DietCokeGirl (May 13, 2015)

I am going, have submitted some questions and also have a couple I'd like to ask at the end, for the un-prep'd Q&A slot.


----------



## Peanut Monkey (May 13, 2015)

stuff_it said:


> Bring back the roti van!!



Does the Roti van exist in any form any more?


----------



## editor (May 13, 2015)

Some tweets from the meeting that's on now. We should have a full report on Buzz later.


----------



## editor (May 13, 2015)




----------



## editor (May 13, 2015)




----------



## CH1 (May 13, 2015)

I went to the meeting. 4 spokespersons from Pop Brixton plus Councillor Jack Hopkins who seemed to be the godfather - except that from time to time he winged about government funding cuts when people expressed disappointment in the council's performance re business and training.

One interesting point (for me) was that there seem to be a number of small businesses being thrown out of Piano House due to residential conversion. One of those expressed serious disillusion at the unaffordably high cost of a container compared to their office in Piano House.

Philippe Garstaing took her on (as he did a few other prospective tenants) claiming that she had unrealistic expectations such as needing creative space that was only going to be used a few hours a week. Clearly Philippe has a strong personality and so so some of his prospective customers.

Another potential client was alienated by being confronted by Carl Turner's architects office when she had wanted to discuss a tenancy.

I thought it interesting that Philippe Garstaing (who was prepared to the extent of having a 3 page FAQ sheet he handed to everyone) outlined the company structure as a normal limited company with sole director Carl Turner. The purpose of the enterprise would be to encourage start up level businesses  by cross-subsidies. He also did not rule out temporary high income promotions (the example he gave was promoting Adidas).

The Pop Brixton company is not a social enterprise or a charity, but will promote social values by its mode of operation.

Cllr Jack Hopkins admitted that the council did not have any milestones or other objectives to evaluate the project. He said that the land was gifted as an in-kind grant/donation. He did mention some further financial assistance but the amounts were small and I can't remember them.

The meeting was rather good humoured and I would say about 45 people attended in addition to the Councillor and the Pop Brixton people.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (May 13, 2015)

They squirmed out of answering a lot of questions with straight facts, there was lots of great buzzwords and fluffy sentiment but no substance to back it. I thought their arrogence shone through.


----------



## editor (May 13, 2015)

I had a chat with some of the people who were at the meeting and quite a few seemed really pissed off with the thing


----------



## Rushy (May 13, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> They squirmed out of answering a lot of questions with straight facts, there was lots of great buzzwords and fluffy sentiment but no substance to back it. I thought their arrogence shone through.


Which questions (which I thought in general were a bit rambly from the chair) did you feel were avoided?

Do you know who the panelist was who had responsibility for the site management? The one who defined what it is to be a Brixtonian?


----------



## editor (May 14, 2015)

Not impressed here: 



or here:


----------



## tompound (May 14, 2015)

I thought that it was a very useful discussion, Cindi did a very good job of chairing it and keeping things on track, and fair play to Philippe and Jack in particular for fronting up.

Most of the questions were centred around the idea that it's going to be Brixton's version of Box Park. I think that it was pretty clearly answered that it won't be - we were told that there would be a strong local presence, every business on site committing to a 'give-back' system, no brands, and free to come in and hang around. If you want to hold them to account on anything, hold them to this.

We talked quite a lot about 'social value', what it means and how to measure it. The POP line was that it is hard to say exactly what social value will emerge, because it will come from the people on the site and we don't yet know exactly who that will be and what they will offer. However the idea is to develop a transparent system, maybe along the lines of a time bank, that displays what is on offer, who is available to do what etc.


----------



## CH1 (May 14, 2015)

editor said:


> Not impressed here:
> 
> or here:



Two people did walk out towards the end of the meeting - I think the precipitating issue was to do with who got the "affordable" units, and also how much account was taken of people being local to Brixton. 
I wouldn't have said it was a PR disaster, but both Garstaing and Hopkins did come across as being "in charge" rather than consulting.

The other point I forgot to mention was this. They were blaming the high rental cost on the short-term nature of the scheme. Which makes one wonder why they didn't do a scheme somewhere they could operate more long term and cheaply. And why are they delaying their housing development on the Pope's Road site by five years? But that was not the purpose of the meeting.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (May 14, 2015)

Corporate social responsibility, responsible capitalism, compassionate conservatism, something fluffy in the air.
Ummm locals, yeah, give them something, what for free?, yeah, give them buzzwords. Will they swallow them? Well they can't afford to eat elsewhere.
How many boxes?, how many can we get away with? Suffer the eyesore.


----------



## CH1 (May 14, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Corporate social responsibility, responsible capitalism, compassionate conservatism, something fluffy in the air.
> Ummm locals, yeah, give them something, what for free?, yeah, give them buzzwords. Will they swallow them? Well they can't afford to eat elsewhere.
> How many boxes?, how many can we get away with? Suffer the eyesore.


You certainly have a point on the sheer ugliness of it all.
Needless to say that did not come up in the conversation.


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> They were blaming the high rental cost on the short-term nature of the scheme. Which makes one wonder why they didn't do a scheme somewhere they could operate more long term and cheaply. And why are they delaying their housing development on the Pope's Road site by five years? But that was not the purpose of the meeting.



Is the Pop site to become housing then?


----------



## CH1 (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Is the Pop site to become housing then?


This was what was mapped out in the Brixton Central consultatons.
It's a long story, but the original theory was they wanted to put a modern rec centre on the site and then redevelop Brixton Rec itself (and international House).

However there was much opposition to any proposed redevelopment of Brixton Rec's site, so they then decided to retain Brixton Rec, but still demolish and redevelop International House. The Pop Brixton site now zoned for housing.

You will recall planning permission has already been granted for a midi-block (8 stories I think) to replace Canterbury Arms. AFAIK this is "blind back" so can be progressed whilst Pop Brixton is in situ.


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> This was what was mapped out in the Brixton Central consultatons.
> It's a long story, but the original theory was they wanted to put a modern rec centre on the site and then redevelop Brixton Rec itself (and international House).
> 
> However there was much opposition to any proposed redevelopment of Brixton Rec's site, so they then decided to retain Brixton Rec, but still demolish and redevelop International House. The Pop Brixton site now zoned for housing.
> ...



If Pop Brixton works, I'd let it carry on. Seems a lot of effort for only two years.


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## CH1 (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> If Pop Brixton works, I'd let it carry on. Seems a lot of effort for only two years.


According to what they were sayng the costings are based on a temporary use.
If they allowed it to carry on the council would want some rent, surely?


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## CH1 (May 14, 2015)

BTW it does have the flavour of a council "accommodation strategy" about it.
The Impact Hub from the Town Hall basement is being rehoused at Pop Brixton, and they have been touting around to get people from the Brixton railway arches in - though the guy at the meeting last night said he had declined the offer. Two or three market people are interested though it seems.


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> According to what they were sayng the costings are based on a temporary use.
> If they allowed it to carry on the council would want some rent, surely?



rent - of course.


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> According to what they were sayng the costings are based on a temporary use.
> If they allowed it to carry on the council would want some rent, surely?


Council is taking 50% of the profits, isn't it? Obviously those will be significantly higher if costs are written off in the first 2.5yrs.


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Council is taking 50% of the profits, isn't it? Obviously those will be significantly higher if costs are written off in the first 2.5yrs.



That's a decent cut.

It seems mad to me to set up 30+ outfits and then pull the plug.


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> If Pop Brixton works, I'd let it carry on. Seems a lot of effort for only two years.


'Works' for who?


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

editor said:


> 'Works' for who?



Those who work there, for a start.


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> You will recall planning permission has already been granted for a midi-block (8 stories I think) to replace Canterbury Arms.


Nine storey private residential block. Zero social housing, natch.


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Those who work there, for a start.


I'm sure people like the NZ wine importers would have no problem relocating elsewhere with the aid of their wealthy backers, ditto the slew of trendy bars and restaurants who are headed into this:







Oh, wait, that's a Grow Brixton image.

I meant this:


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

You need to move on. 

Plan A may have been better, but it didn't happen, for reasons unknown.


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

editor said:


> Nine storey private residential block. Zero social housing, natch.



That's a private development. If Pop is housed over, it should be 100 per cent council housing (but probably won't be).


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> You need to move on.
> 
> Plan A may have been better, but it didn't happen, for reasons unknown.


I see no reason to stop putting pressure on Pop Brixton to adhere to their original promises, or to stop lobbying for real affordable rents for actual local businesses. I don't give up that easy, or let people off the hook. I feel we've been duped and ripped off here.


leanderman said:


> That's a private development. If Pop is housed over, it should be 100 per cent council housing (but probably won't be).


Not even the slightest remotest chance in hell.


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## CH1 (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> You need to move on.
> Plan A may have been better, but it didn't happen, for reasons unknown.


The manager said there had been a falling out with the promoter.


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> The manager said there had been a falling out with the promoter.


There's a *lot* more to tell about that, but that's all waiting on a FOI request.


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

editor said:


> I see no reason to stop putting pressure on Pop Brixton to adhere to their original promises, or to stop lobbying for real affordable rents for actual local businesses. I don't give up that easy, or let people off the hook. I feel we've been duped and ripped off here.



I don't feel qualified to comment on what rent levels are required to meet the costs of the project or whether the discounts they have granted to some tenants are meaningful.

Nor do I feel able to define what a local business actually is. London has always struck me as an open city, without borders.

But I do know that the place seems to be filling up. And there is some kind of grow thing going in, in a giant polytunnel.


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

tompound said:


> I thought that it was a very useful discussion, Cindi did a very good job of chairing it and keeping things on track, and fair play to Philippe and Jack in particular for fronting up.
> 
> Most of the questions were centred around the idea that it's going to be Brixton's version of Box Park. I think that it was pretty clearly answered that it won't be - we were told that there would be a strong local presence, every business on site committing to a 'give-back' system, no brands, and free to come in and hang around. If you want to hold them to account on anything, hold them to this.
> 
> We talked quite a lot about 'social value', what it means and how to measure it. The POP line was that it is hard to say exactly what social value will emerge, because it will come from the people on the site and we don't yet know exactly who that will be and what they will offer. However the idea is to develop a transparent system, maybe along the lines of a time bank, that displays what is on offer, who is available to do what etc.


Largely agree with this summary. I thought the questioning was not very tightly presented and perhaps occasionally a little self indulgent. Consequently the responses were similarly loose at times. I didn't feel anyone was being evasive.

There was some grievance airing from a couple of members of the audience who did not get the offices they wanted. That became a bit of of a personal he said you said she said which was impossible to judge and a little distracting. This clearly riled PC who should of reacted less defensively. To his credit, he offered to publish all the communications with one of the complainants, with her permission.

They confirmed that the cheapest units (8 of which will be released in phase 2 in a couple of weeks) will be less than £8.50 per day. This sounds like a great opportunity for whoever is lucky enough to get them. The application process is only just opening for those do there was no insight add to who that may be.

The Edible Bus Stop were at the meeting and were somewhat awkwardly acknowledged by the panel at the start. They did not ask any questions.

As an aside, the actual temperature in the room was stiflingly hot. I fully expected that to contribute to a boiling over which thankfully did not happen.


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> But I do know that the place seems to be filling up.


Oh well that's alright then. They can change the plans around, make it a towering slab of ugliness and refocus it into a business park, boot out the people who the scheme was awarded to in the first place and charge whatever they like. And it's filling up then it must be a success! Woohoo!


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The Edible Bus Stop were at the meeting and were somewhat awkwardly acknowledged by the panel at the start. They did not ask any questions.


I suspect they may have lots to say in the near future.


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

Fantastic report of last night's meeting here:






Frustrations run high at Reclaim Brixton’s Q&A on Pop Brixton


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

> Within their own frameworks — acceding to austerity and the demands of development and profit and trying to squeeze out of gentrification a few drops of what they can for the community  — this is in fact a good project, and they are doing their their best.



I think this is a fair statement. Arguments about whether the framework they are operating within is being properly challenged by the council can't very fairly be directed at Pop itself.


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## Up the junction (May 14, 2015)

I'd feel very uncomfortable saying that without understanding the finances. £800-£2,5000 a month for a tin shed is not cheap. Isn't there also a £100,000 write off from Lambeth?


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'd feel very uncomfortable saying that without understanding the finances. £800-£2,5000 a month for a tin shed is not cheap. Isn't there also a £100,000 write off from Lambeth?


I don't think anyone is pretending that the full price units - which are being targeted at largely foodie businesses - are cheap. They are expected to fund the cheaper units. I understood last night that the cheapest 8 units (15%) were to be let at £260 pcm. Someone correct me if I misunderstood. 

Dismissing the units as a tin sheds is obviously mildly amusing but not very accurate.

I'm not sure what the£100,000 write of from Lambeth is supposed to refer to. Do you mean the rent free land?


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## Up the junction (May 14, 2015)

I'm not sure about the £100,000 (hence the question mark), I just remember it cropped up. I wasn't following developments too closely at that point.

I guess I'd be interested in the potential profitability of this venture if/when all the units are full. Are the developers milking it?


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## tompound (May 14, 2015)

You might be referring to the Mayor's High St Fund money, which Lambeth were recently successful in bringing in. £100k of this is being used to move the Impact Hub co-working space from the Town Hall over to POP.


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I'm not sure about the £100,000 (hence the question mark), I just remember it cropped up. I wasn't following developments too closely at that point.
> 
> I guess I'd be interested in the potential profitability of this venture if/when all the units are full. Are the developers milking it?


I was going to ask this but the q&a over ran a lot and I was getting "where are you" texts from my girlfriend who had cooked dinner.

That said, the general idea is that the council put up the land, CTA sourced the other costs iro 1,000,000 and managed the project and the profits will be split 50/50. That seems fine on the face of it. 

Of course, there may be devil in the detail of what costs are taken out before calculating profit (eg design fees to CTA, salary to PC, etc...) But there has been no suggestion of anything unreasonable in that regard so far.


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## Tricky Skills (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> You need to move on.
> 
> Plan A may have been better, but it didn't happen, for reasons unknown.



But those 'reasons unknown' _were known_ by Jacko and the Carl Turner Architect lot that were there last night. Until they come forward and publicly explain what role (and cost) the Council played that led to EBS not being involved, then I have little trust in Pop Brixton.

I'm still not sure why CTA has placed the blinds over the windows of the old skate shop along Brixton Station Roach which they have very kindly been given free use of for work on the project.

From what I have seen when I visited, there appears to be an awful lot of CTA staff working EXCLUSIVELY on Pop Brixton - and not on other non-related projects.

Absolutely not.


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## tompound (May 14, 2015)

editor said:


> Fantastic report of last night's meeting here:
> 
> Frustrations run high at Reclaim Brixton’s Q&A on Pop Brixton



I can't dispute the author's right to feel that way, however I don't think it's a particularly accurate picture about how the evening went. I mean, commenting on the 'space between them and us' to describe the seating arrangement is IMO looking for something that simply wasn't there.


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## Up the junction (May 14, 2015)

tompound said:


> You might be referring to the Mayor's High St Fund money, which Lambeth were recently successful in bringing in. £100k of this is being used to move the Impact Hub co-working space from the Town Hall over to POP.


That does ring a bell. Thanks.


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

tompound said:


> I can't dispute the author's right to feel that way, however I don't think it's a particularly accurate picture about how the evening went. I mean, commenting on the 'space between them and us' to describe the seating arrangement is IMO looking for something that simply wasn't there.


As the host explained, the microphone cord would not stretch even beyond the mixing desk at the back of the room. Speakers were having to lean across furniture and away from the audience to use it and be heard. The audience were invited to come forward. Some protested that this was unreasonable whilst others actually came forward and sat more or less alongside the panel.

I don't think Devon (Brixton Business Forum) or the Pop site and maintenance guy whose name escapes me handled themselves very well. Devon kept wandering off seemingly disinterested although I think he may have been annoyed at not being allowed to interject and was unnecessarily patronised by the chair imo. The other chap, who humorlessly and aggressively dropped the clanger that if you did not know who he was you could not count yourself as proper Brixton, was slouching and scowling, arms crossed throughout much of the event. If he is going to be the first point of contact for tenants he is going to have to smarten his act up.


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

My main issue with the report is that one of the photos appears to have given me a small bald patch. I would appreciate it immensely if that misleading image could be corrected.


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## tompound (May 14, 2015)

Yeah that 'don't you know who I am' was a bit car-crash.


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

Does anyone know who the "don't you know who I am" person actually is?


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## CH1 (May 14, 2015)

editor said:


> Does anyone know who the "don't you know who I am" person actually is?


I've never been introduced - and I've lived here since 1978.
I (vaguely) knew such people as former Mayor and landlord of the Atlantic, Lloyd Leon, some people in the West Indian Ex Serviceman's Association. I had met the late Courtney Laws - godfather of Railton Road (in terms of running organisations attracting Social Services funding).

This guy was not one of that vintage. I suggest he is actually a newbee interloper.

Maybe he had a wry sense of humour and it didn't come across?


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Maybe he had a wry sense of humour and it didn't come across?


Awry more like.


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## Winot (May 14, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> But those 'reasons unknown' _were known_ by Jacko and the Carl Turner Architect lot that were there last night. Until they come forward and publicly explain what role (and cost) the Council played that led to EBS not being involved, then I have little trust in Pop Brixton.



If it was a falling out between EBS and CTA (to the extent that it wasn't possible for them to work together) then the parties involved might not want to wash that linen in public.

Wouldn't it be more effective to focus on the things you don't like about the scheme as it stands?


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

I think it's important that people get the opportunity to hear the reasons for the fall out. I'm certainly interested in knowing more.


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## leanderman (May 14, 2015)

Winot said:


> If it was a falling out between EBS and CTA (to the extent that it wasn't possible for them to work together) then the parties involved might not want to wash that linen in public.
> 
> Wouldn't it be more effective to focus on the things you don't like about the scheme as it stands?



Precisely.

Few people here have heard either side of the story, only third-party insinuations that one party has misbehaved - these insinuations now being used to discredit the scheme, as it stands.


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## Up the junction (May 14, 2015)

I feel sure the intrepid and dynamic investigative reporters of BrixtonBuzz will have already asked those difficult questions of the protagonists.


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## SpamMisery (May 14, 2015)

If neither party is willing to share the detail, does it matter?


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## editor (May 14, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Precisely.
> 
> Few people here have heard either side of the story, only third-party insinuations that one party has misbehaved - these insinuations now being used to discredit the scheme, as it stands.


Well, that and the fact that it barely resembles the original winning proposal and it has suddenly doubled in size while veering into a far more business oriented venture . And then there's the matter of the Brixton Green bloke getting his paws all over it.


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## DietCokeGirl (May 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Which questions (which I thought in general were a bit rambly from the chair) did you feel were avoided?
> 
> Do you know who the panelist was who had responsibility for the site management? The one who defined what it is to be a Brixtonian?


No, don't know who he is. I shall hand over my passport for my Brixton visa to be revoked with immediate effect. 

Questions - saying they've received 'small amounts' of money but not how much, not explaining how they came to their calculation for the affordable rate - they spring to mind, from the top of my head. 

I am staggered that Phillipe was asking for suggestions about how to measure KPIs. If the council tendered out any other service or commodity - money, space - they would expect stats and outcome data. I note there was no mention of any reprecutions if the volunteer hours aren't forthcoming. I'm not against a commercial space, but call it what is it.


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## DietCokeGirl (May 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I don't think Devon (Brixton Business Forum) or the Pop site and maintenance guy whose name escapes me handled themselves very well. Devon kept wandering off seemingly disinterested although I think he may have been annoyed at not being allowed to interject and was unnecessarily patronised by the chair imo. The other chap, who humorlessly and aggressively dropped the clanger that if you did not know who he was you could not count yourself as proper Brixton, was slouching and scowling, arms crossed throughout much of the event. If he is going to be the first point of contact for tenants he is going to have to smarten his act up.



This. I really felt they were quite arrogant at times. The art and event manager (Franchesca?) could also have conducted herself in a more professional manor, albeit in a difficult situation.


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## Rushy (May 14, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, that and the fact that it barely resembles the original winning proposal and it has suddenly doubled in size while veering into a far more business oriented venture . And then there's the matter of the Brixton Green bloke getting his paws all over it.


They re-applied for permission to vary the layout and size in March. It received one objection which was not on any valid planning ground and was passed.


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## leanderman (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, that and the fact that it barely resembles the original winning proposal and it has suddenly doubled in size while veering into a far more business oriented venture . And then there's the matter of the Brixton Green bloke getting his paws all over it.



I guess few 'meantime', or other, projects resemble the original proposals - especially after a founding split. 

Brixton Green guy has probably been at a loose end since shutting down Upstairs.


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## Mr Retro (May 15, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Brixton Green guy has probably been at a loose end since shutting down Upstairs.


If "Brixton Green guy" is the person who ran Upstairs then I'm happy he's involved in this project. Opus and Upstairs (when it was open) are quality places. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out. 

With the Village, Granville archade, soon Pop Brixton and the other restaurants not in those places but close by, is there a better area in England to go and eat at the moment?  I think it's fucking brilliant.


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## editor (May 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If "Brixton Green guy" is the person who ran Upstairs then I'm happy he's involved in this project. Opus and Upstairs (when it was open) are quality places. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.
> 
> With the Village, Granville archade, soon Pop Brixton and the other restaurants not in those places but close by, is there a better area in England to go and eat at the moment?  I think it's fucking brilliant.


Brilliant if you can afford it. No so brilliant if you've become a victim of its new-found, tourist-attracting, rent rising, community-shattering wonderfulness.


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## editor (May 15, 2015)

Comment on the Buzz article: 


> The report says that rents of £60 per sq ft pa were suggested for the commercial (non-subsidised units). This is way higher than the asking price for office space in Brixton. Did a search just now and found newly refurbished office space in Acre Lane on offer for £19.63 per sq ft p.a. Or you could rent a unit in the Workspace complex at 1-3 Brixton Road, and get a cafe, access to meeting rooms and a whole load of other bells and whistles for your money, for £46 per sq ft p.a. – less than Grow Brixton are asking for a grotty container. Can’t believe they are going to let many of their metal boxes for £60 per sq ft.


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## Mr Retro (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Brilliant if you can afford it. No so brilliant if you've become a victim of its new-found, tourist-attracting, rent rising, community-shattering wonderfulness.


But this is the circular argument that's always coming up on here about weather they food offerings are affordable or not. I contend they are in the majority of the restaurants. You don't and that's fair as its your view.

Tourists bring money into the area which I am all for. 

Of course the communities should be protected. The new restaurants and new Brixton per se shouldn't effect them. That they do is Lambeth councils shame, not the fault of people trying to make a living by opening a restaurant in an area where there is an appetite for it. I think only Brindisia and Wahaca came in to Brixton. All the others started here. I think it's brilliant.


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## DietCokeGirl (May 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> With the Village, Granville archade, soon Pop Brixton and the other restaurants not in those places but close by, is there a better area in England to go and eat at the moment?  I think it's fucking brilliant.



Thing is, people can only eat and drink so much and the more places, the more competition there is for customers. Obviously this is just speculation at this point but I would hate to see some of the places I like to go struggle because their customer base has been diluted.


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## SpamMisery (May 15, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Thing is, people can only eat and drink so much and the more places, the more competition there is for customers. Obviously this is just speculation at this point but I would hate to see some of the places I like to go struggle because their customer base has been diluted.



The more competition for customers, the more likely we'll see a burger everyone can afford.


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## Winot (May 15, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Thing is, people can only eat and drink so much



Speak for yourself!


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## leanderman (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Brilliant if you can afford it. No so brilliant if you've become a victim of its new-found, tourist-attracting, rent rising, community-shattering wonderfulness.



Yep. It's quite possible that the BV effect encourages landlords to push up private rents by a bit more than they might have done.

BV probably owes some of its success to the arrival of private renters priced out of other areas.

What's more, when renters, wherever they live, have to fork out so much for a room, a meal at BV makes sense as it's cheaper than a restaurant, gastropub or even a chain such as Byron.


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## 299 old timer (May 15, 2015)

editor slams the foodie tourism but conveniently forgets the drug tourism that was an unpleasant feature of the 90s.


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## boohoo (May 15, 2015)

leanderman said:


> What's more, when renters, wherever they live, have to fork out so much for a room, a meal at BV makes sense as it's cheaper than a restaurant, gastropub or even a chain such as Byron.



Better quality and price to be had in BV than in Crystal Palace. A couple of places in Norbury and Streatham match the price and quality of BV.


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## editor (May 15, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> editor slams the foodie tourism but conveniently forgets the drug tourism that was an unpleasant feature of the 90s.


Yeah, that's really relevant. Those druggies really pushed up house prices


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## alex_ (May 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I think only Brindisia and Wahaca came in to Brixton. All the others started here. I think it's brilliant.



Brindisa's distribution warehouse is on weir road, just across the south circular.

Alex


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## cuppa tee (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Yeah, that's really relevant. Those druggies really pushed up house prices


I stumbled on this  the other evening

interesting they are also enthusiastic about property and more specifically the fact it's going up in price........


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## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> But this is the circular argument that's always coming up on here about weather they food offerings are affordable or not. I contend they are in the majority of the restaurants. You don't and that's fair as its your view.
> 
> Tourists bring money into the area which I am all for.



The money mostly doesn't appear to stay in the area, though. Many of the restaurants don't source locally or use much local labour, so what actual money is brought in - the money spent on incidental packets of fags?   



> Of course the communities should be protected. The new restaurants and new Brixton per se shouldn't effect them. That they do is Lambeth councils shame...



Pisspoor understanding of economics you're displaying. How is it the council's shame that gentrification manifests effects on those least able to resist?



> ...not the fault of people trying to make a living by opening a restaurant in an area where there is an appetite for it.



Sure. They're just neutral players in the game of commerce, whose operations have nothing to do with perpetuating social fractures.



> I think only Brindisia and Wahaca came in to Brixton. A l the others started here. I think it's brilliant.



Started by whom, though? For whom?  I mean, it's nice that you can indulge your urge to sample different cuisines, and feel that doing so has no effect on some members of Brixton's community (shame on the council, though!), but the fond fantasy you voice above is hardly realistic.


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## BigMoaner (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> A 'buskers corner' now seems _de rigeu_r for any new hip development, and the benefits are obvious.
> 
> Net outlay for the landlord = next to nothing.
> Running costs = nothing.
> ...


Also that shit is pretty vibrant.


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## leanderman (May 15, 2015)

alex_ said:


> Brindisa's distribution warehouse is on weir road, just across the south circular.
> 
> Alex



And owner lives by Brockwell Park


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## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The more competition for customers, the more likely we'll see a burger everyone can afford.



Unlikely. Given current costs for places in the village and central Brixton, competition (as proven by what's happened to previous outlets) often puts such an upward impetus on costs that today's £10.95p burger and chips goes up two quid rather than down two quid.


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## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> editor slams the foodie tourism but conveniently forgets the drug tourism that was an unpleasant feature of the 90s.



Irrelevant.


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## editor (May 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The more competition for customers, the more likely we'll see a burger everyone can afford.


And there was silly old me thinking that when a place became hugely desirable amongst those with plenty of disposable income and the more well heeled tourists, prices would go up! I shall await Honest Burgers massive price cuts with keen anticipation.


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## editor (May 15, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And owner lives by Brockwell Park


Shame it took her 25 years to make it all the way to Brixton.


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## Winot (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Shame it took her 25 years to make it all the way to Brixton.



Still, better late than never.


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## editor (May 15, 2015)

Winot said:


> Still, better late than never.


Given her self professed love of Brixton it seems rather a shame that she only decided to share her wonderful wares with her neighbours when the place had sufficiently gentrified and the profits looked juicy enough.

I've got a lot more time and respect for the local businesses that stuck with Brixton through the tough times than the cash-in-quick Johnny Come Latelys. Sadly the latter are now forcing out the former.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Shame it took her 25 years to make it all the way to Brixton.



Well...it's vibrant now. She was just biding her time....

Where is Brixton on the vibrancy rating. How is it measured. Are we just high vibrancy or in the red vibrant...

I might go on a high vibrant diet and see if it makes my beard bigger.


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## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Well...it's vibrant now. She was just biding her time....
> 
> Where is Brixton on the vibrancy rating. How is it measured. Are we just high vibrancy or in the red vibrant...
> 
> I might go on a high vibrant diet and see if it makes my beard bigger.



Neckbeard Nanker!


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## Nanker Phelge (May 15, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Neckbeard Nanker!



I was thinking of growing a nipple beard


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## Ms T (May 15, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Thing is, people can only eat and drink so much and the more places, the more competition there is for customers. Obviously this is just speculation at this point but I would hate to see some of the places I like to go struggle because their customer base has been diluted.


That's already happening, according to the people who run Cornercopia. And lots of the locals who were their regulars at the beginning, like me, stay away because of the crowds.


----------



## Up the junction (May 15, 2015)

Carries on like this and Richard Curtis will be writing a screenplay by the years end.


----------



## 299 old timer (May 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Yeah, that's really relevant. Those druggies really pushed up house prices



That the best you can do Mr voice of Brixton? Mug. Think harder mr first wave gentrifier. Born and bred on Coldharbour Lane long before you put a foot in Brixton, listening to your ignorant bullshit is quite painful. You first wave gentrifiers helped make what Brixton is now.


----------



## editor (May 15, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> That the best you can do Mr voice of Brixton? Mug. Think harder mr first wave gentrifier. Born and bred on Coldharbour Lane long before you put a foot in Brixton, listening to your ignorant bullshit is quite painful. You first wave gentrifiers helped make what Brixton is now.


Please stop this bizarre, off topic and disruptive personal abuse or you will be banned.


----------



## MissL (May 15, 2015)

right i am 100% confused. can someone actually tell me what the units will be used for - housing, offices, restaurants or a mixture - and how much they will cost per month? is it a tiered system so some units are cheaper than others with the cheaper rents being subsidised by the more expensive ones? if so who chooses who gets the cheaper units?


----------



## editor (May 15, 2015)

MissL said:


> right i am 100% confused. can someone actually tell me what the units will be used for - housing, offices, restaurants or a mixture - and how much they will cost per month? is it a tiered system so some units are cheaper than others with the cheaper rents being subsidised by the more expensive ones? if so who chooses who gets the cheaper units?


Here's their full press release, if that helps. It's all on trend with The Collective’s ethos of sharing and empowerment, which is fantastic, obvs.


*NEWS RELEASE: 13th May 2015	 *

*Pop Brixton*

_A new, one-of-a-kind destination, created with the local community in the heart of Brixton is opening on 29th May_

Pop Brixton, a brand new unique space focusing on supporting local enterprise, will host some of the community’s most exciting independent start-ups across food & drink, retail, creative industries and the arts. Opening on 29th May, Pop Brixton is turning a piece of wasteland into an attractive new urban space, and will create a green and welcoming location in the heart of the town centre, to be enjoyed by all.

Just a stone’s throw from Brixton station, Pop Brixton will support 80 entrepreneurs and create over 200 jobs. Commissioned by Lambeth Council, the space has been designed by award-winning Carl Turner Architects, who has partnered with developers, The Collective, to help deliver the scheme. Created out of environmentally friendly, up-cycled shipping containers, 85% of the carefully selected tenants have connections to the local area, and the site will include ten affordable units at rents 20% to 50% of the standard charge.

With Brixton already established as a go-to, foodie destination in London, Pop Brixton is set to build on this success and create London’s hottest new destination in the heart of Brixton. There will be plenty to choose from, including the renowned _Zoe’s Ghana Kitchen_ taking up her first permanent residency offering authentic Ghanaian dishes, through to _Miss P’s BBQ_ bringing their juicy beef ribs and _Baba G’s_serving up an Indian and British food fusion. As well as over 20 mouth-watering food and drink vendors,Pop Brixton boasts a diverse selection of independent retail outlets. From vintage clothing sellers Make Do & Mend through to Japanese tea house, Kyocha, Pop Brixton will provide a unique shopping destination full of hidden gems. Office and workspace will also be home to local businesses and the Impact Hub Brixton will provide affordable co-working space for start-ups, allowing enterprise and innovation to flourish.

Pop Brixton is a place that has come to life through the talents of many local people. Tenants have committed an hour a week to a time-bank for community giveback, which will involve skill sharing with other tenants and the local community, including through a purpose built training space.  Other initiatives range from Pop Farm – a garden and greenhouse area planted by the local community – through to local artist exhibitions, workshops and an event space with a programme orchestrated by tenants. The 200 capacity event space will offer a chance to enjoy a wide range of events, including TEDx Brixton talks, gigs and cinema screenings.

Lambeth Cllr Jack Hopkins, Cabinet member for Jobs and Growth said_: “Pop Brixton is a unique collaboration that is offering many local businesses space and the opportunity to flourish. It will be a great addition to Brixton’s well-deserved reputation as a stimulating, exciting and creative place.”_

Carl Turner, Founding Director of Carl Turner Architects said: _“We are delighted to be working with both Lambeth Council and The Collective, and believe this innovative project will not only create one of the most exciting new public spaces in London, but also demonstrate that it is possible to create affordable space for local enterprise, creativity and people to flourish within a sustainable business model.”_

Reza Merchant, CEO of The Collective said: “_With a lack of space versus high demand being an ever present issue in London, Pop Brixton is an innovative and exciting way to bring to life a meanwhile space. With Pop Brixton also benefitting the surrounding community and adding to Brixton’s established lively character, we are proud to deliver this hub of creativity which perfectly shares The Collective’s ethos of sharing and empowerment_.”


----------



## editor (May 15, 2015)

I have some empowering key facts to share too:

Pop Brixton  - key facts



Pop Brixton is a project to support local jobs, training and enterprise.

Pop Brixton is a pioneering new space created by the local community to showcase the best and most exciting independent start-ups and businesses from Brixton and Lambeth, where they can share space, skills and ideas.

Pop Brixton is created out of environmentally friendly, up-cycled shipping containers, and constructed with the help of 12 apprentices from Lambeth College.

A rigorous tenant application process was put in place to ensure the project realises its ambitions for the local community, with 85% of first phase tenants being based in Brixton and Lambeth.

Tenants have committed an hour a week to a time bank to benefit the local community through skill sharing.

Flexible studio, office, workshop, retail and food & drink space has been created from low-cost, low-energy, shipping containers within 1,425 square metres of space

The land for Pop Brixton is owned by Lambeth Council and has been given to the project at no cost until at least October 2017 to help support local enterprise, jobs and training.

Pop Brixton will create over 200 jobs over the course of the project.

Phases two and three will open in July 2015.

When complete Pop Brixton will be home to :
10 street food kiosks
6 cafes/restaurants
4 bars
7 retailers
2 pop up retail spaces
19 offices (inc 5 tech space/ hubs) 
2 workshops
4 studios
An art Gallery
Event Space
Greenhouse  - Pop Farm, planted and cultivated by local people and school children  throughout the project.
Horticultural Gardens
Training Hub
Buskers Corner


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 15, 2015)

and a partridge in a locally sourced pear tree


----------



## MissL (May 16, 2015)

hmm interesting. it has also come to my attention through a friend that some of the containers are also available to rent as media/ advertising space… i'm guessing this would be one of the 'pop-up retail spaces'. one quote given to a large, multinational company that shall remain nameless was in the region of £50k for four months. if this money (or the vast majority of it) goes straight into the local community then fine, but i seriously wonder whether it will. if not, i'm completely failing to see how this use of space benefits local residents or businesses. also failing to see how this use of space complements the organic, local, entrepreneur, community-led tone of the press release.


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## boohoo (May 16, 2015)

MissL said:


> hmm interesting. it has also come to my attention through a friend that some of the containers are also available to rent as media/ advertising space… i'm guessing this would be one of the 'pop-up retail spaces'. one quote given to a large, multinational company that shall remain nameless was in the region of £50k for four months. if this money (or the vast majority of it) goes straight into the local community then fine, but i seriously wonder whether it will. if not, i'm completely failing to see how this use of space benefits local residents or businesses. also failing to see how this use of space complements the organic, local, entrepreneur, community-led tone of the press release.



£50k for four month!!! So that would be approx £12k a month - can't see how they would do business that justifies that spend.


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## 299 old timer (May 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Shame it took her 25 years to make it all the way to Brixton.



Same time as you, no?


----------



## 299 old timer (May 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And owner lives by Brockwell Park




Just wondering what you mean by this (possibly deliberately) vague post? The owner is local? And?


----------



## leanderman (May 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Just wondering what you mean by this (possibly deliberately) vague post? The owner is local? And?



Some people insist localness is important in these matters. So I was pointing out that Brindisa woman is local. 

I guess she has finally branched out here because more of her typical customers now live around here, having been priced out of their natural habitats.


----------



## 299 old timer (May 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Some people insist localness is important in these matters. So I was pointing out that Brindisa woman is local.
> 
> I guess she has finally branched out here because more of her typical customers now live around here, having been priced out of their natural habitats.



Ah, I get you, thanks. I know for sure that the business was built up from scratch, is local, and should be celebrated, just like all those independent traders down in the arches.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Same time as you, no?


I wasn't running a business elsewhere and banging on about how much I suddenly loved Brixton, you clueless pillock.


----------



## 299 old timer (May 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I wasn't running a business elsewhere and banging on about how much I suddenly loved Brixton, you clueless pillock.



So you insult me and you threaten me with the ban hammer? Look at yourself for shame! You have no clue about what you are talking about, because you weren't here! Talking about Brixton and taking photos to try and give yourself some sort of credibility...
Who funds you?


----------



## editor (May 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Who funds you?


This thread is about the _Pop Brixton development_. If you persist in posting up nothing but disruptive and off topic personal attacks, you will be banned in accordance with the rules.

Oh, and I fund myself thanks, not that it's any of your fucking business.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> That the best you can do Mr voice of Brixton? Mug. Think harder mr first wave gentrifier. Born and bred on Coldharbour Lane long before you put a foot in Brixton, listening to your ignorant bullshit is quite painful. You first wave gentrifiers helped make what Brixton is now.



That's a bit wanky, even for you.


----------



## 299 old timer (May 17, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's a bit wanky, even for you.



Ha ha! True, I really must try harder!


----------



## DietCokeGirl (May 17, 2015)

Honest Burgers opening a second Brixton site in Pop, apparently.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Honest Burgers opening a second Brixton site in Pop, apparently.


Oh, for FFS. More fucking burgers from what is now a chain. I guess you need to be to afford the rental prices. Whoppee.

Here's how the Tower Of Entrepreneurship looked today:


----------



## blameless77 (May 17, 2015)

boohoo said:


> £50k for four month!!! So that would be approx £12k a month - can't see how they would do business that justifies that spend.


A TV ad would cost that for about 5 seconds...it's about brand recognition / hearts and minds for those kinds of deals. Pop Brixton are actively seeking the deals...think Corrs bar was bad?


----------



## cuppa tee (May 17, 2015)

MissL said:


> hmm interesting. it has also come to my attention through a friend that some of the containers are also available to rent as media/ advertising space… i'm guessing this would be one of the 'pop-up retail spaces'. one quote given to a large, multinational company that shall remain nameless was in the region of £50k for four months.


could this be the rumoured Marc Jacobs pop up store ?


----------



## tompound (May 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh, for FFS. More fucking burgers from what is now a chain. I guess you need to be to afford the rental prices. Whoppee.



I just checked this and it's completely false.


----------



## Rushy (May 20, 2015)

tompound said:


> I just checked this and it's completely false.


How very dishonest.



Boom boom.


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## Rushy (May 20, 2015)

I just poked my nose in the gate and thought it looked pretty cool. The big green house thing is in. Performance space still awaiting roof. Decking going down.


----------



## Up the junction (May 20, 2015)

Rushy said:


> How very dishonest.
> 
> 
> 
> Boom boom.


You're on a roll.


----------



## Winot (May 20, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> You're on a roll.



Unlike the burgers.


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## Rushy (May 20, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> You're on a roll.


That usually means that I have done sort of deadline looming.


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## editor (May 20, 2015)

tompound said:


> I just checked this and it's completely false.


I hope so, although lots of companies say one thing now and then later on do the exact opposite later.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (May 21, 2015)

Just had this popped through the letterbox.
May29th, I'll be surprised if it's ready by then, it still looks like a fucking dump.


----------



## Gramsci (May 22, 2015)

I was not able to go to the Pop Q&A with Reclaim Brixton as went to LJ consultation instead ( want to write up my notes of that as some point).

I did read Andreas report for Brixton Buzz

What she picked up, in what I think is a perceptive article,  was the the general unease some people like me feel about the way the project has ended up.



> It wasn’t the outcome hoped for by the folks of Pop Brixton. I couldn’t help but feel it was the clash of two different worlds though, and they weren’t being challenged here on what is actually what has everyone so angry.





> Within their own frameworks — acceding to austerity and the demands of development and profit and trying to squeeze out of gentrification a few drops of what they can for the community  — this is in fact a good project, and they are doing their their best.
> 
> Of course, if you started from what the community needs rather than what little we can do with what we can scrape off of an enterprise that needs to earn a profit, this is not the project that would have emerged. But what the community needs is not going to come out of the neoliberal tool box.
> 
> ...



I think this is the underlying issue.

Hopkins,  Castaing just do not get it:



> There was a lot of talk from Castaing and Cllr Hopkins about lofty ideals, the councillor used the phrase ‘getting on and up in the world’ three times. Phrases like that grate on me just a bit.



Yes and they grate on me as well. I was rather glad not to go as I was expecting this kind of thing to be said. They think its progressive and cutting edge. New Labour Third Way embrace of entrepreneurship.

I would not have minded so much if the Council had just rented out the site on a commercial basis for a few years. At least that would be straightforward.

Now its this New Labour type fantasy of socially concerned business project. Didn’t do them any good at election time. Business loves the Tories.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 22, 2015)

Hard at it this evening;


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## editor (May 23, 2015)

I've been emailed this question: 



> Has anyone seen an application for licensing of 6 bars and
> restaurants.. (not to mention the 10 take away food units )..any
> opportunities to object to the scale of the development that has
> mushroomed since inception..
> ...


----------



## cuppa tee (May 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I've been emailed this question:


http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-road-development.322188/page-6#post-13858853


----------



## Mr Retro (May 24, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> Just had this popped through the letterbox.
> May29th, I'll be surprised if it's ready by then, it still looks like a fucking dump.
> View attachment 71660


I was chatting to friend in The Canterbury yesterday who was in turn chatting to the guy from Upstairs who is director (or whatever his title is) and it will definitely by opening next week.


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## Rushy (May 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I've been emailed this question:


In response - there were two planning applications. The original Grow one and then a second in the past few weeks incorporating changes including additional units. Cuppa has linked to the licence application. Both planing applications and the licence application involved statutory periods for public consultation, during which time objections to any changes including the apparently "mushrooming scale" could be lodged.

It is probably up to licencing how they treat any period between opening and finalising the licence - if indeed it has not been granted already.


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## editor (May 24, 2015)

I heard last night that there was an objection, so they are opening with a temporary licence.


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## Rushy (May 24, 2015)

I'm surprised there was only one to be fair. Has the potential to be pretty noisy late at night so would need to negotiate conditions. I guess they will need to agree some noise limits and dispersal conditions.


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## leanderman (May 27, 2015)

Jack Hopkins tweets that 85 per cent of the tenants are local.


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Jack Hopkins tweets that 85 per cent of the tenants are local.


By which he means Lambeth, I think. I think Brixton residents is in the 50s.


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## editor (May 27, 2015)

Are you local? Why yes, I am! I wet my whistle  in Waterloo/overlook the Thames at Vauxhall/go hob nobbing in Norbury/sup champers in Crystal Palace, wine in West Dulwich etc etc.


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## leanderman (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> By which he means Lambeth, I think. I think Brixton residents is in the 50s.



How dare they, these Lambeth types!


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

leanderman said:


> How dare they, these Lambeth types!


Well indeed. It does seem that what constitutes appropriate local businesses depends largely on which businesses we are talking about. We're up in arms about the arches in general when the occupants include an estate agents, pawn broker, gold buyer, and one of a small chain of shops owned and run by a chap who lives in Sevenoaks. Then we begrudge people from within our own borough being given the opportunity to set up a 200sqft space in a shipping container on a Brixton back street - because they are not local enough / wrong kind of businesses. It just seems like "if you're in you're in, everyone else can fuck off".


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It just seems like "if you're in you're in, everyone else can fuck off".


Who is saying that? Where? 

Have you not bothered to read any of the arguments about the reasons why there might be opposition to the Pop Brixton project?


----------



## leanderman (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Who is saying that? Where?
> 
> Have you not bothered to read any of the arguments about the reasons why there might be opposition to the Pop Brixton project?



In my case, yes. And I found the reasons for opposition unconvincing. 

Most significantly, I doubt whether the scheme, as originally proposed, would have got off the ground, let alone succeeded.

Mind you, the current scheme might not succeed either, despite getting off the ground. 

Who knows?


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Who is saying that? Where?
> 
> Have you not bothered to read any of the arguments about the reasons why there might be opposition to the Pop Brixton project?



Perhaps I misunderstood your somewhat colorful post above about wetting whistles here and hob nobbing there as implying that people from parts of Lambeth other than Brixton are not local enough in your book. If that's not what it meant, what were you attempting to say with that post?


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Most significantly, I doubt whether the scheme, as originally proposed, would have got off the ground, let alone succeeded.


Then that should surely lead to serious questions being asked as to why it was awarded winning bid status in the first place if it was so obviously unsustainable. And then it should have gone back out to tender rather than having the whole thing massively expanded and repurposed into a business focused venture without further consultation.


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Perhaps I misunderstood your somewhat colorful post above about wetting whistles here and hob nobbing there as implying that people from parts of Lambeth other than Brixton are not local enough in your book. If that's not what it meant, what were you attempting to say with that post?


The point being that when Hopkins is proudly announcing that 85% of the boxpark nu-residents are supposedly "local," I imagine quite a few people won't be thinking that he means they've come from the length and breadth of Lambeth.


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Then that should surely ask serious questions as to why it was awarded winning bid status in the first place if it was so obviously unsustainable. And then it should have gone back out to tender rather than having the whole thing expanded and repurposed into a business focused venture without consultation.


When did EBS leave the scheme? It was certainly being touted by Lambeth as business driven in September last year.

http://love.lambeth.gov.uk/space-for-hire-growbrixton/



> Grow:Brixton is creating work spaces, growing spaces, cafes and shops, as well as live/ work units in shipping containers tastefully arranged around a covered space for community events such as cinema, theatre and music.



Even the anticipated rents seem about the same?


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> When did EBS leave the scheme? It was certainly being touted by Lambeth as business driven in September last year.
> 
> http://love.lambeth.gov.uk/space-for-hire-growbrixton/
> 
> Even the anticipated rents seem about the same?


For a more accurate picture, I think you'd be better off going with this analysis:


> And then in December, everything changed as the name became Pop: Brixton, the Edible Bus Stop pulled out of the project. The scale became grander, with less emphasis on food and environment more on business and entrepreneurship.
> 
> From the website you can see that the community partner is now The Collective, a property development and management company ‘formed by a group of Millennials on a mission to redefine the way young people live, work and play’ and ‘targeted at ambitious young professionals.’
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/05/frustrations-run-high-at-reclaim-brixtons-qa-on-pop-brixton/


Hopkins has variously described the project as  "a community business park for the 21st century” and a "temporary business campus.”
I don't recall seeing those descriptions in the original Grow Brixton proposals.


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> The point being that when Hopkins is proudly announcing that 85% of the boxpark nu-residents are supposedly "local," I imagine quite a few people won't be thinking that he means they've come from the length and breadth of Lambeth.


Fair enough. I am perfectly happy to accept that that is what you imagined. I imagine people are less territorial about Brixton than you give them credit for.


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Fair enough. I am perfectly happy to accept that that is what you imagined. I imagine people are less territorial about Brixton than you give them credit for.


Sometimes your desperation to win Internet Points takes you to some very silly places. You'd have to be as daft as a brush to claim you're a 'Brixton local' when you live by the Southbank, by Gypsy Hill station or down the road from Norbury station.


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> For a more accurate picture, I think you'd be better off going with this analysis:
> 
> Hopkins has variously described the project as  "a community business park for the 21st century” and a "temporary business campus.”
> I don't recall seeing those descriptions in the original Grow Brixton proposals.


If the author had not seen Lambeth's press release dated 30 Sep 2014, (which I found by googling Lambeth Grow Brixton) one has to query whether that is indeed an accurate and fair analysis.


----------



## elmpp (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Are you local? Why yes, I am! I wet my whistle  in Waterloo/overlook the Thames at Vauxhall/go hob nobbing in Norbury/sup champers in Crystal Palace, wine in West Dulwich etc etc.


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Sometimes your desperation to win Internet Points takes you to some very silly places. You'd have to be as daft as a brush to claim you're a 'Brixton local' when you live by the Southbank, by Gypsy Hill station or down the road from Norbury station.


Oh dear. Looks like we're descending into "you're so stupid" territory. I'll leave you to it.


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> If the author had not seen Lambeth's press release dated 30 Sep 2014, (which I found by googling Lambeth Grow Brixton) one has to query whether that is indeed an accurate and fair analysis.


Here's the original, winning proposal from March 2014: 


> The grow:brixton team consists of award-winning Carl Turner Architects, The Edible Bus Stop – guerilla gardeners and landscape experts – Canteen – socially minded food organisation – and Engineers Structure Workshop, all based in Lambeth.
> 
> They propose ‘grow:brixton’, a place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. Grow:brixton gives young people of Brixton the chance to acquire new skills in building, gardening or music, offering apprenticeships and opportunities.
> 
> ...


----------



## SpamMisery (May 27, 2015)

Can someone define the borders of Brixton so I for future reference what's local and what's not.


----------



## steeeve (May 27, 2015)




----------



## steeeve (May 27, 2015)

Seemingly Brixton Prison, Brixton Cycles and Brixton Windmill are all not local


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

steeeve said:


> Seemingly Brixton Prison, Brixton Cycles and Brixton Windmill are all not local


I don't think you need a map to come up with a reasonable notion of what counts as 'local,'  although toes may be stepped on when it comes to the SW2/SW9 question.


----------



## 299 old timer (May 27, 2015)

Parts of Brixton Road and Brixton Hill aren't in Brixton. My old stomping ground New Park Road isn't in Brixton according to that map, but it and Dumbarton Court and Roupell aren't in Streatham or Tulse Hill or Clapham.
Never ever considered Ruskin Park to be in Brixton...


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Never ever considered Ruskin Park to be in Brixton...


Whilst Brockwell Park isn't.


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Parts of Brixton Road and Brixton Hill aren't in Brixton. My old stomping ground New Park Road isn't in Brixton according to that map, but it and Dumbarton Court and Roupell aren't in Streatham or Tulse Hill or Clapham.
> Never ever considered Ruskin Park to be in Brixton...


Lambeth thinks it is: 





> A large and popular Edwardian park between Camberwell, Brixton and Herne Hill...
> http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/places/ruskin-park


----------



## steeeve (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Whilst Brockwell Park isn't.



Brockwell is Herne Hill isn't it?


----------



## SpamMisery (May 27, 2015)

steeeve said:


> Seemingly Brixton Prison, Brixton Cycles and Brixton Windmill are all not local



Can't quite make it out on my phone but brixton Academy isn't included either?


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

steeeve said:


> Brockwell is Herne Hill isn't it?


Yep, although the uber-pedantic could point out that a tiny part of one entrance is in Brixton!


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Can't quite make it out on my phone but brixton Academy isn't included either?


The Academy is in Brixton. Just.


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

steeeve said:


> Brockwell is Herne Hill isn't it?


And there was me always thinking it was local.


----------



## SpamMisery (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't think you need a map to come up with a reasonable notion of what counts as 'local,'  although toes may be stepped on when it comes to the SW2/SW9 question.



Let's not forget bits of SW4 too!


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> And there was me always thinking it was local.


----------



## editor (May 27, 2015)

To prevent this thread being diverted into another dull nitpick-fest, I would ask that all further discussion of Brixton boundaries and landmarks be taken elsewhere.

Let's talk about the Pop Brixton development. Please.


----------



## steeeve (May 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Can't quite make it out on my phone but brixton Academy isn't included either?



It's just what comes up when you type Brixton into google maps if you hadn't guessed


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

For the purpose of understanding protests about whether fellow Lambethians deserve access to business space in Pop, has the red line of Brixton been adopted as the definitive measure of locality?


----------



## 299 old timer (May 27, 2015)

Controversial. If you live just beyond the Academy, tough luck chum, but if you live a mile away down by Ruskin Park, you're in!


----------



## leanderman (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Here's the original, winning proposal from March 2014:



This reminder of the winning proposal is much closer to the current reality than I had thought. 

And probably why they did not have another tender process, which would have further eaten into a time-limited project.


----------



## Rushy (May 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Controversial. If you live just beyond the Academy, tough luck chum, but if you live a mile away down by Ruskin Park, you're in!


But surely those chancers from behind the Academy could locate their businesses in their own major urban business and leisure zone?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Jack Hopkins tweets that 85 per cent of the tenants are local.



Whatever "local" means.


----------



## cuppa tee (May 27, 2015)

more Brixton Green shenanigans



edited to say I should maybe have posted this on this thread
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/somerleyton-road-tell-us-what-you-think.335232/


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## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Are you local? Why yes, I am! I wet my whistle  in Waterloo/overlook the Thames at Vauxhall/go hob nobbing in Norbury/sup champers in Crystal Palace, wine in West Dulwich etc etc.



Sounds like Burlington Bertie.


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## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Perhaps I misunderstood your somewhat colorful post above about wetting whistles here and hob nobbing there as implying that people from parts of Lambeth other than Brixton are not local enough in your book. If that's not what it meant, what were you attempting to say with that post?



Seems to be fairly obvious that he was commenting on what "local" might mean.


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## Mr Retro (May 27, 2015)

Passed there about 8:30pm this evening and it was like a beehive. All shoulders to the wheel to get it open on Friday. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it turns out now.


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## editor (May 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Passed there about 8:30pm this evening and it was like a beehive. All shoulders to the wheel to get it open on Friday. I'm really looking forward to seeing how it turns out now.


I'll be there for the launch!


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## SpamMisery (May 27, 2015)

So the maps inconclusive, what does count as local?


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## 299 old timer (May 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> So the maps inconclusive, what does count as local?



With a compass, centred on the Pop site, draw a series of 4 outward bound circles, making the last one touch the bottom of Brixton Road. Rate each boundary in terms of localness.


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## editor (May 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> So the maps inconclusive, what does count as local?


Please see post #365.


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## SpamMisery (May 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Please see post #365.



Oops sorry, didn't see that post


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 28, 2015)

Still looks like a building site this lunchtime;

 


Although the posh local NZ wine people are stocking up their dingy box, seems to be one of few functioning boxes, although they were working in the dark; I guess if you have the money......


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## editor (May 28, 2015)

Not everyone agrees with jack.


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## Dexter Deadwood (May 28, 2015)




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## Dexter Deadwood (May 28, 2015)

More here;
https://dexterdeadwood.wordpress.co...ton-formerly-growbrixton-popes-road-brixton/#


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## steeeve (May 29, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> View attachment 71998
> 
> More here;
> https://dexterdeadwood.wordpress.co...ton-formerly-growbrixton-popes-road-brixton/#



Is the first photo on your site real? Looks CGI!


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## CH1 (May 29, 2015)

steeeve said:


> Is the first photo on your site real? Looks CGI!


I thought that - but if you magnify it it looks actuel.


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## leanderman (May 29, 2015)

Going to inspect some of the food places this weekend - if they open in time.


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## steeeve (May 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Going to inspect some of the food places this weekend - if they open in time.



may swing by tonight - I assume there's bars not just restaurants?


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## leanderman (May 29, 2015)

Quite a bit of both.


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## leanderman (May 29, 2015)

Opening delayed until 6pm


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## DietCokeGirl (May 29, 2015)

Had a nose through the windows at lunch time. I assume the opening tonight is partial, not full, because the part I saw still looked like a building site!


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## editor (May 29, 2015)

Backslapping tweet


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## editor (May 29, 2015)

Photo op-tastic launch


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## editor (May 29, 2015)




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## Ms T (May 29, 2015)

It was pretty busy when I was there at around 6. A lot of places weren't open. I liked it though. Apparently they already have the full quota of bars and food joints. 

And the local cats have been enjoying the plants it seems.


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## colacubes (May 29, 2015)

We poked our heads in at 6.45 and it was absolutely rammed so gave up.  Will go and have a nose over the weekend instead.


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## leanderman (May 29, 2015)

We gave up too, after grabbing a free NZ wine sample. 

Very busy. My first sighting ever of our dear leader Lib Peck.

Lots of interesting food and wine places. 

Will try again tomorrow.


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## T & P (May 29, 2015)

I think you're paying more importance to the related tweets than they probably deserve, editor (both for and against the scheme).

Seldom anything useful or relevant comes out of them- just lots of blurb and hot air from individuals and businesses alike who nowadays seem to feel compelled to bombard the world with their every thought and views about everything.


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## Gramsci (May 30, 2015)

T & P said:


> I think you're paying more importance to the related tweets than they probably deserve, editor (both for and against the scheme).
> 
> Seldom anything useful or relevant comes out of them- just lots of blurb and hot air from individuals and businesses alike who nowadays seem to feel compelled to bombard the world with their every thought and views about everything.



Twitter is where its at from what I have been told by someone in the media. Facebook is for the older generation. I use FB more than twitter as I do not have smart phone. Was listening to radio programme on internet use and it said that apps like "Whatsapp" are the future and gaining ground on twitter. Sounds right as friend of mine is complaining I do not have smart phone and whatsapp. She is wanting me to get with the new social media.


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## Gramsci (May 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Not everyone agrees with jack.




Reading Jacks link to his website.

Its all Nu Labour banging on about business.


> _*POP Brixton is not just the hottest independent business space in London, it’s a great exponent of businesses giving back and the Council using its assets to get social value for citizens alongside jobs and much needed business space*_



Very Nu Labour.


> This is a fantastic example where the public, private and community sectors have come together to create something that will allow local businesses to flourish and provide maximum benefit to Brixton. It’s difficult to put a price on social value but we will test and develop for the lifetime of POP so we can ensure that future developments live these ideals and new businesses coming to Brixton know that there is an expectation on them to be part of the community, not just to take advantage of Brixton’s success.



Social value is here related to private enterprise. The thing about the Brixton Rec that looms over the container village is that its symbol of a very different social ethos. A place that was designed to be where people could mix without the need of pursuit of social value through profit motive. A social space.


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## Gramsci (May 30, 2015)

leanderman said:


> In my case, yes. And I found the reasons for opposition unconvincing.
> 
> Most significantly, I doubt whether the scheme, as originally proposed, would have got off the ground, let alone succeeded.
> 
> ...



If the original scheme in your opinion was a non starter then it should not have won the bid.

As I said before the Grow Brixton bid was not the only scheme that wanted the site. I object as the bid that won ended up as something different to the what was proposed.

imo as the original bid failed it should have gone to the runner up. As it is looks to me that the Council stepped in and basically took it over. Got one of there mates to take over the business side and turned it into a Nu Labour project. Having followed it looks to me that the original concept had a lot of public support and now its ended up as business park for the "21st Century" as Jack says. I am so not interested.


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## Tricky Skills (May 30, 2015)

It's SO COOL.


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## boohoo (May 30, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> It's SO COOL.




Stopped after a minute - very annoying commentary.


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## leanderman (May 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> If the original scheme in your opinion was a non starter then it should not have won the bid.
> 
> As I said before the Grow Brixton bid was not the only scheme that wanted the site. I object as the bid that won ended up as something different to the what was proposed.
> 
> imo as the original bid failed it should have gone to the runner up. As it is looks to me that the Council stepped in and basically took it over. Got one of there mates to take over the business side and turned it into a Nu Labour project. Having followed it looks to me that the original concept had a lot of public support and now its ended up as business park for the "21st Century" as Jack says. I am so not interested.



Impossible to judge the scale of public support - especially as a project plays out - or whether Carl Turner is mates with the council. 

Having had a look, the final result doesn't really interest me either, but that's probably a good thing.


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## Rushy (May 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> If the original scheme in your opinion was a non starter then it should not have won the bid.


In general people I have met have a lot of respect for leanderman but I'm not sure even his authoritative opinions hold quite that much sway.


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## brixtonblade (May 30, 2015)

I thought I'd go have a look 

It's closed, think it's power problem


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## Belushi (May 30, 2015)

sounds like they've gone off half cocked


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## Rushy (May 30, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> I thought I'd go have a look
> 
> It's closed, think it's power problem


Probably - lots of outages  and frantic scrabbling in power cabinets last night.


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## leanderman (May 30, 2015)

It was busy last night but you wonder if it can sustain it. Especially the NZ wine place.  

Is there the demand?


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## editor (May 30, 2015)

T & P said:


> I think you're paying more importance to the related tweets than they probably deserve, editor (both for and against the scheme).
> 
> Seldom anything useful or relevant comes out of them- just lots of blurb and hot air from individuals and businesses alike who nowadays seem to feel compelled to bombard the world with their every thought and views about everything.


Twitter is every bit as valid a tool for communicating a message as any other. That's why companies and individuals hire social media managers. To say what's tweeted can be played down just because it's on Twitter suggests that you really don't understand the importance of the medium.


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## T & P (May 30, 2015)

Oh, it can be very useful in the right circumstances and depending on what message is being conveyed. It can also be a lot of hot air and self promotion by businesses, and endless deep philosophical musings or sharp commentary by individuals that nobody actually asked to hear about or care much care for. Unfortunately the latter kind of tweets seem to outweigh the former.


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## Rushy (May 30, 2015)

T & P said:


> Oh, it can be very useful in the right circumstances and depending on what message is being conveyed. It can also be a lot of hot air and self promotion by businesses, and endless deep philosophical musings or sharp commentary by individuals that nobody actually asked to hear about or care much care for. Unfortunately the latter kind of tweets seem to outweigh the former.


There are often so many tweets from so many different perspectives that you can usually produce evidence to support any narrative you care to.


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## leanderman (May 30, 2015)

T & P said:


> Oh, it can be very useful in the right circumstances and depending on what message is being conveyed. It can also be a lot of hot air and self promotion by businesses, and endless deep philosophical musings or sharp commentary by individuals that nobody actually asked to hear about or care much care for. Unfortunately the latter kind of tweets seem to outweigh the former.



Worse still, most of these commercial tweets make me feel hungry.


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## Up the junction (May 30, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It was busy last night but you wonder if it can sustain it. Especially the NZ wine place.
> 
> Is there the demand?


Oh the demand is there - in Brixton, I mean. The business decision is about risk vs. whether pop can pull 'em in.

Seems almost certain to be a summer success. How much do you risk that that will be sustained ...


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## Belushi (May 30, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It was busy last night but you wonder if it can sustain it. Especially the NZ wine place.
> 
> Is there the demand?



Yeah, it will just add to Brixton's new status as a 'destination'


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## Gramsci (May 30, 2015)

Went to have a look this afternoon.

Did not stay. Its Brixton Village mark 2. Lots of eateries and overpriced beers. I can get decent drink in one of the threatened arches for half the price.

If I had just wandered in there without knowing the history of this "meanwhile" space I would think its a commercial run project.

As I said before the way its ended up I would have preferred that the Council had let the land on a commercial basis and used some of the income for the local area.

Pop Brixton , from my viewing today, has nothing to do with the original concept that got a lot of local support.

I could not even be bothered to take photos today. It really pissed me off.

It also looks half finished. I have seen better uses of containers.


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## CH1 (May 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Went to have a look this afternoon.
> 
> Did not stay. Its Brixton Village mark 2. Lots of eateries and overpriced beers. I can get decent drink in one of the threatened arches for half the price.
> 
> ...


It's like a repeat of Barratts Brixton Square
1. Organsiation submits plan for social housing/community project
2. Council agrees
3. Change of control
4. Prepare viability appraisal
5. Reduce to minimum social/community element
6. Council agree
7. Council attend launch - gin and tonics all round.


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## BigMoaner (May 31, 2015)

What's it vibrancy rating?


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## ViolentPanda (May 31, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> What's it vibrancy rating?



8 out of 10 on the Wankler scale.


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## editor (May 31, 2015)

I went last night. It's all rather jolly and vibrant but it feels like it has zero connection to the area. It could be anywhere.


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## Winot (May 31, 2015)

editor said:


> I went last night. It's all rather jolly and vibrant but it feels like it has zero connection to the area. It could be anywhere.
> 
> View attachment 72118



Not Brixton Village Mark 2 then?


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## editor (May 31, 2015)

Winot said:


> Not Brixton Village Mark 2 then?


Feels pretty much like Brixton Village feels to me when I walk through it at night.

It's another Time Out-friendly, Camden/Shoreditch-style tourist 'destination' that's been parachuted in with very little cultural relation to the area its in. Estate agents are going to love it.

That said, I''m sure lots of people are going to love it, but its main attraction seems to be as a nu-night time drinking location, so I'm not sure how well it's going to do in the daytimes - especially if it's raining.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 31, 2015)

A wretched hive of scum and villiany


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## Rushy (May 31, 2015)

In the day time it will be largely occupied by those using the offices. There are 100 people moving over from the hub at the town hall alone, I've been told. Obviously there will be a different vibe going on then.

I agree that a lot of the kiosk type stalls do not appear to have given much thought as to how they will attract/keep their queuing customers when it's training.


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## boohoo (May 31, 2015)

Rushy said:


> how they will attract/keep their queuing customers when it's training.



you mean raining.


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## editor (May 31, 2015)

It's going to be a miserable place to tarry in the winter.


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## Rushy (May 31, 2015)

boohoo said:


> you mean raining.


Yeah. That too.


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## leanderman (May 31, 2015)

Rushy said:


> In the day time it will be largely occupied by those using the offices. There are 100 people moving over from the hub at the town hall alone, I've been told. Obviously there will be a different vibe going on then.
> 
> I agree that a lot of the kiosk type stalls do not appear to have given much thought as to how they will attract/keep their queuing customers when it's training.



Was there much seating? I can't remember?


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## Rushy (May 31, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Was there much seating? I can't remember?


There were stools and tables dotted about. Pallets for sitting on in the middle. More formal benches and tables in the covered area. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the arrangements until it's finished.

Didn't like the two security guards on the gate thus afternoon. Way too conspicuous. Not friendly / welcoming looking.


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## uk benzo (May 31, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There were stools and tables dotted about. Pallets for sitting on in the middle. More formal benches and tables in the covered area. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the arrangements until it's finished.
> 
> Didn't like the two security guards on the gate thus afternoon. Way too conspicuous. Not friendly / welcoming looking.



This is something that has recently started to get on my tits. Security in BV hassled me for standing next to a restaurant's table talking to a friend. In market row they have hassled me for walking my bike through the arcade. 

These places aren't exclusive clubs, they are a collection of bloody cafés and shops. It's fucking unwelcoming.


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## CH1 (May 31, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There were stools and tables dotted about. Pallets for sitting on in the middle. More formal benches and tables in the covered area. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the arrangements until it's finished.
> 
> Didn't like the two security guards on the gate thus afternoon. Way too conspicuous. Not friendly / welcoming looking.


There were about 4 security guards on duty tonight as I went to the Beehive. Provides employment I suppose.


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## editor (Jun 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There were stools and tables dotted about. Pallets for sitting on in the middle. More formal benches and tables in the covered area. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the arrangements until it's finished.
> 
> Didn't like the two security guards on the gate thus afternoon. Way too conspicuous. Not friendly / welcoming looking.


Security guards are very much a feature of nu-Brixton. They seem to be about in growing numbers in Market Row/Village.


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## Belushi (Jun 1, 2015)

Security guards always make a place feel so welcoming..


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## Rushy (Jun 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Security guards are very much a feature of nu-Brixton. They seem to be about in growing numbers in Market Row/Village.


They are a feature of everywhere now. I literally had my balls cupped and bum crack fingered to get into a bar in Shoreditch to meet friends visiting from Ireland. They even dismantled a plastic pen. It was not even 9pm.

But even worse than that, they went down the queue asking everyone for age ID. Everyone except me .

To add insult to injury, my friends had decided that they would move on as soon as I arrived so I didn't even have a drink there!


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 1, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> A wretched hive of scum and villiany



Surely if it were a wretched hive of scum and villainy, it'd be *interesting*?


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 3, 2015)

I popped in on Sunday with baby hatter in the pushchair. It was ok i guess, but not much different than the new places in the Granville Arcade - in fact, it's basically an extension of Brixton Village. I couldn't get upstairs to some of the things with the pushchair (cos it was steps) so wheelchair users will have the same problem (the main food bit had a slope though.) £4.50 for pint of red stripe or Guinness was a bit steep. but par for the course these days I guess (I aim to make ciders significantly cheaper in my cider bar  )

Lots of places not open yet though. It was mostly food places and bars. There was an interesting looking ladies's clothes shop selling dayglo knitwear. And an indian fast food place doing vegi indian burgers for a reasonable £5. Also, there are a few local ladies I know through the Platform Project who have clubbed together to get a container and share the rent & shop duties. They're not open yet, but one of them is doing (homemade?) beauty products and her mates are doing similar things. Good luck to them I say - they're proper local and imo what this thing should be for.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 4, 2015)

We were there last night. Had a glass of wine in the NZ wine shop and a small chat with the very pleasant girl running it with her partner. She said it's been a long journey and looked really delighted and had a buzz of achievement about her. I'm pleased for them. 

Had food in Donistia and it was extremely good. I'll go back as often as I can, I really was impressed.  

It's true it could be anywhere as somebody has said, but its in Brixton and I'm glad it is


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## editor (Jun 4, 2015)

I'd much prefer it if it had the local feel of the new Granville Market rather than it being a magnet for entrepreneurial international wine importers. Great if you can afford it, I suppose.


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## Rushy (Jun 4, 2015)

Aren't wet lucky to have both. Right here on our doorsteps.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 4, 2015)

editor said:


> I'd much prefer it if it had the local feel of the new Granville Market rather than it being a magnet for entrepreneurial international wine importers. Great if you can afford it, I suppose.


There's room for both isn't there?


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## trabuquera (Jun 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Had food in Donistia and it was extremely good. I'll go back as often as I can, I really was impressed.


 
Lucky you: I went in there Tuesday and tried to get something to eat, but was studiously ignored for over 15 minutes by all the staff in the place. Maybe because I wasn't part of a huge group which had taken up all the bar stools. Which was annoying, because I'd really like to try their food. Opening weeks always frantic, I know, but I did NOT leave with a nice warm feeling - just an empty stomach.


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## editor (Jun 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> There's room for both isn't there?


One tends to eventually push out the other.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 4, 2015)

editor said:


> One tends to eventually push out the other.



Isn't that a good thing considering you don't like either?


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## Mr Retro (Jun 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> There's room for both isn't there?





editor said:


> One tends to eventually push out the other.


The one there was no demand for?


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## Mr Retro (Jun 4, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> Lucky you: I went in there Tuesday and tried to get something to eat, but was studiously ignored for over 15 minutes by all the staff in the place. Maybe because I wasn't part of a huge group which had taken up all the bar stools. Which was annoying, because I'd really like to try their food. Opening weeks always frantic, I know, but I did NOT leave with a nice warm feeling - just an empty stomach.


I really encourage you to go back. It was very good. They seemed to have got into a flow by yesterday and the service was good and fast. It was full but not crazy busy though. There were only 2 of us and a girl next to us was eating alone so I doubt they ignored you on purpose or because you were not part of a larger group.


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## editor (Jun 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> The one there was no demand for?


What was there no demand for?  Cheap housing? Affordable cafes? Local businesses?


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## editor (Jun 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Isn't that a good thing considering you don't like either?


If you're unable to make a coherent comment, please keep your thoughts to yourself. Thanks.


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## leanderman (Jun 4, 2015)

Had a nice hour there earlier. Bumped into a friend, who I joined for lunch (Baba G Indian burgers) and then got chatting to a neighbour who is helping one of the traders. 

He said rents are very high, mitigated by the benefits of the brand and ease of set-up compared with elsewhere. 

Had no idea who is trousering whatever profit there might be. 

Also claims it will run to five years. Possibly longer.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 4, 2015)

editor said:


> What was there no demand for?  Cheap housing? Affordable cafes? Local businesses?


Are you saying Pop Brixton will force out the Granville Market as part of the above process? I'm not sure that will be the case and I don't see why both won't continue. I hope they do. If one closes because of lack of demand then that's different


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## BigMoaner (Jun 4, 2015)

i've got a bad feeling Ed that brixton is just going to make you miserable. how do you reverse this shit? impossible. move to Margate. or thornton heath. it's finished as it was. like a great big fat yuppie geinie whose got a hipster hat on, he aint ever going to go back in his lamp.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 4, 2015)

editor said:


> If you're unable to make a coherent comment, please keep your thoughts to yourself. Thanks.



What?!!


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## Up the junction (Jun 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It's true it could be anywhere as somebody has said, but its in Brixton and I'm glad it is


Well put!


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## Up the junction (Jun 4, 2015)

editor said:


> If you're unable to make a coherent comment, please keep your thoughts to yourself. Thanks.


Oh the irony.


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## BigMoaner (Jun 4, 2015)

It's about to go off


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## Up the junction (Jun 4, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i've got a bad feeling Ed that brixton is just going to make you miserable. how do you reverse this shit? impossible. move to Margate. or thornton heath. it's finished as it was. like a great big fat yuppie geinie whose got a hipster hat on, he aint ever going to go back in his lamp.


Haven't you heard; 30 years of hurt: Brixton's Coming Home!


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## cuppa tee (Jun 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> The one there was no demand for?



This is an interesting comment, when do we reach peak restaurant, it seems we are becoming like NYC with people living in shoe boxes so small they don't
have room for an oven or pots and pans, how else can there be enough demand for so many restaurants, maybe I am a dinosaur but eating out was something
you did on birthdays or holidays, now we've even got that deliveroo bollocks so people don't even have to go out to eat out, another thing is how do people afford to be
eating out all the time, I reckon I can knock up a filling meal for a fiver tops for me + 2 and we are always skint sat end of the month veggie burgers at a fiver a pop would bankrupt us if we did it once a week,
maybe someone who does it can help with the maths


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## leanderman (Jun 4, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> This is an interesting comment, when do we reach peak restaurant, it seems we are becoming like NYC with people living in shoe boxes so small they don't
> have room for an oven or pots and pans, how else can there be enough demand for so many restaurants, maybe I am a dinosaur but eating out was something
> you did on birthdays or holidays, now we've even got that deliveroo bollocks so people don't even have to go out to eat out, another thing is how do people afford to be
> eating out all the time, I reckon I can knock up a filling meal for a fiver tops for me + 2 and we are always skint sat end of the month veggie burgers at a fiver a pop would bankrupt us if we did it once a week,
> maybe someone who does it can help with the maths



Part of the success of Brixton Village is that you can 'eat out' there relatively cheaply, and fashionably. 

Which suits private renters getting ripped off by greedy landlords.

Whether there is demand for BV 2 is a moot point. 

But I am not going to complain now I know it has a fish and chip place.


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## Belushi (Jun 4, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> This is an interesting comment, when do we reach peak restaurant, it seems we are becoming like NYC with people living in shoe boxes so small they don't
> have room for an oven or pots and pans, how else can there be enough demand for so many restaurants, maybe I am a dinosaur but eating out was something
> you did on birthdays or holidays, now we've even got that deliveroo bollocks so people don't even have to go out to eat out, another thing is how do people afford to be
> eating out all the time, I reckon I can knock up a filling meal for a fiver tops for me + 2 and we are always skint sat end of the month veggie burgers at a fiver a pop would bankrupt us if we did it once a week,
> maybe someone who does it can help with the maths



It can be no more expensive to eat out than to spend the evening at the pub, to go clubbing, or to the pictures etc. Eating out's a social thing, its great, I love it.


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## leanderman (Jun 4, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It can be no more expensive to eat out than to spend the evening at the pub, go clubbing, or go to the pictures etc. Eating out's a social thing, its great, I love it.



Not that we should get bogged down in figures and value for money (again) but ...

£6.50 today for a tasty and filling tikka burger and chips. 

A pub pint is only £2 less.


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## editor (Jun 4, 2015)

Eating a takeaway and spending time in a pub are two entirely different activities. Old folks, the lonely and the broke can usually sit quietly in a pub for hours. Just one drink is enough to be allowed to stay, and often it can be a social place to be. Try sitting in Honest Burgers with a plate of chips for two hours and see how long you'll last. If you can get a seat, of course.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 4, 2015)

leanderman said:


> But I am not going to complain now I know it has a fish and chip place.



Pop Brixton has a chip shop? Brilliant. Is it any good? We're in dire need of one of those


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## Mr Retro (Jun 4, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It can be no more expensive to eat out than to spend the evening at the pub, to go clubbing, or to the pictures etc. Eating out's a social thing, its great, I love it.


Me too. A good meal out is like a holiday. We were buzzing coming out of Donista last night.


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## cuppa tee (Jun 4, 2015)

editor said:


> Old folks, the lonely and the broke



These are the last things the gilded youth of Boris's Boomtown want to be rubbing shoulders with, no wonder eating out is so "on trend"


----------



## leanderman (Jun 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Pop Brixton has a chip shop? Brilliant. Is it any good? We're in dire need of one of those



Exactly. 

Looks good. Didn't try. Will ASAP. 

Not cheap. But fish isn't.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 4, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Looks good. Didn't try. Will ASAP.
> 
> Not cheap. But fish isn't. View attachment 72286



Panko.........lol, that is not fish and chips as we know it


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 4, 2015)

doesn't taste the same without newspaper wrapping #backintheday #oldfolks


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 4, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> doesn't taste the same without newspaper wrapping #backintheday #oldfolks



that is not a fish and chip shop menu but thanks for your pointless sarky comment


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 4, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> This is an interesting comment, when do we reach peak restaurant, it seems we are becoming like NYC with people living in shoe boxes so small they don't
> have room for an oven or pots and pans, how else can there be enough demand for so many restaurants, maybe I am a dinosaur but eating out was something
> you did on birthdays or holidays, now we've even got that deliveroo bollocks so people don't even have to go out to eat out, another thing is how do people afford to be
> eating out all the time, I reckon I can knock up a filling meal for a fiver tops for me + 2 and we are always skint sat end of the month veggie burgers at a fiver a pop would bankrupt us if we did it once a week,
> maybe someone who does it can help with the maths


Tis good for a) the wealthy and or your average young professional whose only real commitment is the rent.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Eating a takeaway and spending time in a pub are two entirely different activities. Old folks, the lonely and the broke can usually sit quietly in a pub for hours. Just one drink is enough to be allowed to stay, and often it can be a social place to be. Try sitting in Honest Burgers with a plate of chips for two hours and see how long you'll last. If you can get a seat, of course.



And Coldharbour Ward contains a lot of the broke or those only just getting by.

At the meeting about the Rec an older lady said one of the things that she like about it when it first opened was that it had cafe and bar that were affordable. It was important for her as a social space. Something that has been lost over the years.

Heard the same thing about libraries by an older person.

Its these things that are under threat or one has to continually argue for.

Was reading something about inequality and it pointed out that the less well of social and cultural horizons are limited by the lack of money. As a mother told me parks are important to her as they are free. Like libraries. Without them her kids would not get any cultural activity.

I do not see Pop Brixton as catering for these people.


----------



## T & P (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Eating a takeaway and spending time in a pub are two entirely different activities. Old folks, the lonely and the broke can usually sit quietly in a pub for hours. Just one drink is enough to be allowed to stay, and often it can be a social place to be. Try sitting in Honest Burgers with a plate of chips for two hours and see how long you'll last. If you can get a seat, of course.


So long as eateries (old and nu alike) don't replace existing pubs, it is not a problem at all and old/ broke folk can continue to enjoy a cheap pint for hours in their pub of choice. The arrival of Pop Brixton and the existence of Honest Burgers are not a threat to the likes of The Beehive, and both sets of customers can and should be able to continue enjoying their custom in Brixton without one displacing the other.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2015)

You can apply for a container for the next phase of this wonderful project.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2015)

T & P said:


> So long as eateries (old and nu alike) don't replace existing pubs, it is not a problem at all and old/ broke folk can continue to enjoy a cheap pint for hours in their pub of choice. The arrival of Pop Brixton and the existence of Honest Burgers are not a threat to the likes of The Beehive, and both sets of customers can and should be able to continue enjoying their custom in Brixton without one displacing the other.



The cafes I use in the arches in Brixton Station road are under threat.

And existing affordable business will be displaced.

How much more of Brixton am I supposed to concede?

And Bradys? Oh thats Wahaca now. Was designated in the Brixton Masterplan for community use.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 5, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> How much more of Brixton am I supposed to concede?



No one has it to concede.

ETA: Except those who have paid high rents for years and finally give up


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2015)

leanderman said:


> No one has it to concede.
> 
> ETA: Except those who have paid high rents for years and finally give up




Do not understand what point you are making.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 5, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Do not understand what point you are making.



Sorry, terrible syntax. 

I meant that I don't think Brixton is anyone's to concede.

It belongs to no one. It changes.

Businesses come and go. (I don't think however that Network Rail should be allowed to treble rents or anything like that)


----------



## happyshopper (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Old folks, the lonely and the broke can usually sit quietly in a pub for hours. Just one drink is enough to be allowed to stay,  ...



But perhaps this is why too many pubs are closing. Pubs are commercial organisations, like Honest Burgers, Wahaca, et al, but there's not enough money in providing somewhere to sit for hours with just a pint.


----------



## Winot (Jun 5, 2015)

happyshopper said:


> But perhaps this is why too many pubs are closing. Pubs are commercial organisations, like Honest Burgers, Wahaca, et al, but there's not enough money in providing somewhere to sit for hours with just a pint.



Bingo. 

(Actually, maybe that's the answer for the old folks).


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

Winot said:


> Bingo.
> 
> (Actually, maybe that's the answer for the old folks).


Except bingo halls are closing too.


----------



## Winot (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Except bingo halls are closing too.



The broader question is whether we can expect businesses to provide for social need even if it doesn't make any money.


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 5, 2015)

Bingo's are growing: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Press/News-archive/2014/Latest-industry-statistics.aspx

But mostly because of tax cuts: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...save-hundreds-of-jobs-and-revitalise-industry 

[warning don't open that unless you can stomach a photo of smiling Gideon]


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Except bingo halls are closing too.



Evangelistchurch.



not so catchy though.


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Bingo's are growing: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Press/News-archive/2014/Latest-industry-statistics.aspx
> 
> But mostly because of tax cuts: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...save-hundreds-of-jobs-and-revitalise-industry
> 
> [warning don't open that unless you can stomach a photo of smiling Gideon]


Where is bingo growing around Brixton?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 5, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Me too. A good meal out is like a holiday. We were buzzing coming out of Donista last night.



Went today. Most of what we tried was good. The stuffed peppers and the hake were excellent.


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

Pop looked low on vibrancy when I just passed by. It seems an odd kind of place in the day now that the green focus has been more or less been totally removed.


----------



## han (Jun 5, 2015)

I haven't actually seen the place yet. Might cycle past this afternoon, for curiosity value.


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## han (Jun 5, 2015)

Well blow me down, I wasn't expecting this. It's weird. Like a theme park! But what's interesting, at least this afternoon, is it's a completely different crowd to the villarge. Young, old, black, white, schoolkids eating noodles, very mixed. Which is great. It's odd though - I feel like I've landed on a different planet, somehow, but it feels positive, unlike the posh bits of the villarge which are just horrible.


----------



## han (Jun 5, 2015)

I can imagine it'll be pretty hellish in the evening. On a sunny weekday afternoon when most people are at work, the atmosphere is quite pleasant. It seems artificial, temporary, like a theme park, but it's full of locals at the moment, which I didn't expect at all.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 5, 2015)

han said:


> I can imagine it'll be pretty hellish in the evening. On a sunny weekday afternoon when most people are at work, the atmosphere is quite pleasant. It seems artificial, temporary, like a theme park, but it's full of locals at the moment, which I didn't expect at all.



Someone said it felt a bit like a festival.


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Someone said it felt a bit like a festival.


Maybe a festival in Clapham.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Maybe a festival in Clapham.



As Han pointed out - and I agree - there is a bit of a mix in there.


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

leanderman said:


> As Han pointed out - and I agree - there is a bit of a mix in there.


Han was referring to her daytime visit. I was referring to what I saw in the evening.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Han was referring to her daytime visit. I was referring to what I saw in the evening.



The festival comment related to daytime. 

Old people and youngsters are less likely to be present at night, so it's no surprise that it will look less mixed then - and more like most Brixton pubs do.


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The festival comment related to daytime.
> 
> Old people and youngsters are less likely to be present at night, so it's no surprise that it will look less mixed then - and more like most Brixton pubs do.


I'm not sure what kind of festival they go to, but a few people sitting around eating to a backdrop of barely audible music is not what I'd call a festival.


----------



## han (Jun 5, 2015)

I did have to leave when the DJ started playing 'lovely day', though. 
My partner remarked to me how posh the toilets there were. When she was in there, a woman remarked to her how horrible she thought the toilets were. It's all relative  isn't it [emoji3]


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 5, 2015)

Pop Brixton has now hired public relations outfit "W"
http://www.prweek.com/article/1350087/pop-brixton-appoints-w-launch
W has a roster of clients that include many internationally known brands
http://www.wcommunications.co.uk/


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Pop Brixton has now hired public relations outfit "W"
> http://www.prweek.com/article/1350087/pop-brixton-appoints-w-launch
> W has a roster of clients that include many internationally known brands
> http://www.wcommunications.co.uk/
> ...


I regularly get sent press releases from new "small independent" businesses opening up around Brixton and it's not unusual to find that they are being promoted by big name (and expensive)  PR agencies.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Bingo's are growing: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Press/News-archive/2014/Latest-industry-statistics.aspx
> 
> But mostly because of tax cuts: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...save-hundreds-of-jobs-and-revitalise-industry
> 
> [warning don't open that unless you can stomach a photo of smiling Gideon]



A lot of it appears to be the mega-bingo complexes and online bingo that's growing, with the trad places going to the wall outside of holiday resorts.


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## boohoo (Jun 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> A lot of it appears to be the mega-bingo complexes and online bingo that's growing, with the trad places going to the wall outside of holiday resorts.



Streatham and the Elephant bingo halls  are still surviving. Tooting hasn't gone either.


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## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Streatham and the Elephant bingo halls  are still surviving. Tooting hasn't gone either.


Some are hanging on, but I wouldn't gamble on all of them being around for that much longer. There used to be a big one in Kennington Road.












I don't think there's any bingo halls left in Brixton now.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Streatham and the Elephant bingo halls  are still surviving. Tooting hasn't gone either.



Bingo halls in Balham, Wandsworth Rd and 1 of the ones in Clapham Junction are gone.

IIRC Tooting *can't*, as it's listed, and any developer would have to retain the interior "as is", so no conversion into flats etc. Also, Tooting doesn't have any local competition *and* has a car-park where minibus-loads of grannies can be deposited and picked up.


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## editor (Jun 5, 2015)

Here's how big the decline has been:



> The number of bingo clubs has dropped from nearly 600 in 2005 to fewer than 400 today. Though the industry still employs 12,500 people, 6,500 jobs have been lost in the past decade. Even more worryingly, the people's love affair with the bingo ticket and the dabber pen appears to be on the wane, with visits down from 80 million in 2005, to 43 million today.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ame-unfair-tax-for-games-decline-9053738.html


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## boohoo (Jun 5, 2015)

I remember the Kennington one being open - that and Clapham Junction went a long time ago - isn't that just a change in people's socialising?

I can't see Tooting or Streatham being turned into anything else - both listed buildings, both huge.

Elephant will go.


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## leanderman (Jun 5, 2015)

My neighbour is a regular at the Streatham one.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I remember the Kennington one being open - that and Clapham Junction went a long time ago - isn't that just a change in people's socialising?
> 
> I can't see Tooting or Streatham being turned into anything else - both listed buildings, both huge.
> 
> Elephant will go.



Which Clapham Junction one - the Granada, or the one that became The Grand?


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## boohoo (Jun 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which Clapham Junction one - the Granada, or the one that became The Grand?



The Granada - didn't that go about ten years or more?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2015)

boohoo said:


> The Granada - didn't that go about ten years or more?



Thought it was a bit more recent than that, but then I don't go out that way very often!


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## cuppa tee (Jun 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Some are hanging on, but I wouldn't gamble on all of them being around for that much longer. There used to be a big one in Kennington Road.



now luxury flats and a tesco


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## boohoo (Jun 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thought it was a bit more recent than that, but then I don't go out that way very often!



It closed in 1997. Time flies...   (Kennington also closed in the same year)


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 5, 2015)

Heaving and rocking as I went past earlier. Suppose it would be a surprise if it wasn't on the first weekend.

Dogstar looked very, very tired.


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## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2015)

leanderman said:


> *Old people* ....less likely to be present at night, so it's no surprise that it will look less mixed then - and more like most Brixton pubs do.



I take it you have not been in Beehive recently? 

Or in the Portuguese cafe in Brixton Station road when football is on.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I remember the Kennington one being open - that and Clapham Junction went a long time ago - isn't that just a change in people's socialising?



I agree its a change in people socialising.

It was a working class women who went to bingo halls. I vaguely remember my upstairs neighbour taking me to bingo. For them it was meet up with friends without hubby around.

It was also cheap. Unlike a lot of online gambling which is becoming a problem now.

It was a different time. Bingo halls were not about getting one to empty out ones pockets.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 5, 2015)

I'm a bit pissed, and can't be arsed reading back, but is there really a parallel being drawn between Pop Brixton opening and bingo halls closing down?


----------



## gaijingirl (Jun 5, 2015)

we had an urban meet in the Camberwell bingo hall way back - before the smoking ban when I was a bit into bingo (but not a smoker) - reckon I shaved at least a year off my life during that period.  Can't remember who else came now... anyone reading?


----------



## gaijingirl (Jun 5, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I take it you have not been in Beehive recently?
> 
> Or in the Portuguese cafe in Brixton Station road when football is on.



Cafe Max... we go weekly - always a mix.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm a bit pissed, and can't be arsed reading back, but is there really a parallel being drawn between Pop Brixton opening and bingo halls closing down?



Im a bit pissed as well courtesy of my cheap off license in LJ who sell Polish beers.

Cllr Jack Hopkins is thinking of rolling out the Pop Brixton concept to the remaining Bingo Halls in Lambeth.

Instead of the working classes wasting there money on cheap diversions they will learn the benefits of forward thinking progressive entrepreneurial values for the 21st century.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

han said:


> Well blow me down, I wasn't expecting this. It's weird. Like a theme park! But what's interesting, at least this afternoon, is it's a completely different crowd to the villarge. Young, old, black, white, schoolkids eating noodles, very mixed. Which is great. It's odd though - I feel like I've landed on a different planet, somehow, but it feels positive, unlike the posh bits of the villarge which are just horrible.



Totally not what it was like this evening. I popped in for a look round, and it wasn't at all as you describe sadly, but a mostly 20s, mostly white mix of people who looked pretty well off. I left thinking that you get a broader mix of people in the village, and this was the people who left the village after their meal but didn't want to go out in Brixon, so they just went from one walled environment to another. To me, it felt more extreme than the village has ever been. It felt like Clapham had finally created its enclave. If this is the future, then that's it...the Brixton I moved to in 1993 has gone, and we've lost.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> Totally not what it was like this evening. I popped in for a look round, and it wasn't at all as you describe sadly, but a mostly 20s, mostly white mix of people who looked pretty well off. I left thinking that you get a broader mix of people in the village, and this was the people who left the village after their meal but didn't want to go out in Brixon, so they just went from one walled environment to another. To me, it felt more extreme than the village has ever been. It felt like Clapham had finally created its enclave. If this is the future, then that's it...the Brixton I moved to in 1993 has gone, and we've lost.


That's pretty much it, sadly.


----------



## han (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> Totally not what it was like this evening. I popped in for a look round, and it wasn't at all as you describe sadly, but a mostly 20s, mostly white mix of people who looked pretty well off. I left thinking that you get a broader mix of people in the village, and this was the people who left the village after their meal but didn't want to go out in Brixon, so they just went from one walled environment to another. To me, it felt more extreme than the village has ever been. It felt like Clapham had finally created its enclave. If this is the future, then that's it...the Brixton I moved to in 1993 has gone, and we've lost.



If that's the case, and yes that's what I was imagining it would turn into at night time, that's a real shame. When I went there yesterday afternoon I thought it seemed  ok (albeit very artificial-feeling and theme parky). [emoji20]


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## 299 old timer (Jun 6, 2015)

Clapham never used to be like it is now, some parts were well rough. The Brixton I knew and grew up in is long gone, never to return. Looks like a Londonwide thing. What disappoints me is the generic sameyness of everywhere you go these days.


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## Up the junction (Jun 6, 2015)

Day 4 and the U75 verdict is in for pop Brixton. How will they deal with this news ..


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## Mr Retro (Jun 6, 2015)

han said:


> If that's the case, and yes that's what I was imagining it would turn into at night time, that's a real shame. When I went there yesterday afternoon I thought it seemed  ok (albeit very artificial-feeling and theme parky). [emoji20]


There was a launch of something or other in there last night I think so that's probably why the crowd all looked like each other. Not saying it would be much different otherwise though.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 6, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Day 4 and the U75 verdict is in for pop Brixton. How will they deal with this news ..


The pollsters got this one bang on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2015)

boohoo said:


> It closed in 1997. Time flies...   (Kennington also closed in the same year)



Feckin' hell!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I agree its a change in people socialising.
> 
> It was a working class women who went to bingo halls. I vaguely remember my upstairs neighbour taking me to bingo. For them it was meet up with friends without hubby around.
> 
> ...



Although from what I recall, they did start lining their foyers with fruit machines some time in the '90s.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 6, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Although from what I recall, they did start lining their foyers with fruit machines some time in the '90s.


Early 90s - one of the dimmer housemates took me to Bingo (just round the corner) and, while taking a break from the bingo, she went on the fruit machines.  It was one of the most boring and most expensive nights of my life.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 6, 2015)

I popped my head in around 7.30 on Friday night....it was full of white peope drinking champagne....it was shit.


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## DietCokeGirl (Jun 6, 2015)

Had a walk round maybe half of it last night about 6.30, it felt a bit confusing and claustrophobic. Guess I'll try again when it's likely to be quieter.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> There was a launch of something or other in there last night I think so that's probably why the crowd all looked like each other. Not saying it would be much different otherwise though.



Fair enough. It did feel like a corporate launch funnily enough - everything seemed bland. 

I couldn't really work out why people were there, as there was nothing interesting or charming about it. It's just a bunch of shipping containers. The bars seemed expensive, the little food places were doing a brisk trade, but why would you want to eat your dinner standing around in a concrete yard full of shipping containers, there was a DJ playing characterless house music in the background. 

Its only possible "appeal" I thought was that it's a walled environment, that keeps the "edgy-ness" of Brixton at bay. There was a couple of security guards at the entrance, so I guess they're charged with keeping out the wrong sort - I shudder to think who they might be. 

Let's see how it settles down - maybe it'll mutate as time goes on. I hope so. 

One question - is this a permanent structure, or a temporary pop-up for the summer?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> Fair enough. It did feel like a corporate launch funnily enough - everything seemed bland.
> 
> I couldn't really work out why people were there, as there was nothing interesting or charming about it. It's just a bunch of shipping containers. The bars seemed expensive, the little food places were doing a brisk trade, but why would you want to eat your dinner standing around in a concrete yard full of shipping containers, there was a DJ playing characterless house music in the background.
> 
> ...



At least three years, possibly five.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton--think-outside-the-box
> 
> Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything you’ve seen before; it’s own world. You feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. Around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.



Just gone back through the thread to read up on the history of this, and this leapt out at me. 

This is exactly what I suspected - it's an oasis, surrounded by yet separate from the hustle of bustle of Brixton.

A walled structure for people who want to feed off the "vibrancy" of Brixton without actually dirtying their hands with it.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> Just gone back through the thread to read up on the history of this, and this leapt out at me.
> 
> This is exactly what I suspected - it's an oasis, surrounded by yet separate from the hustle of bustle of Brixton.
> 
> A walled structure for people who want to feed off the "vibrancy" of Brixton without actually dirtying their hands with it.



Or maybe they just like food.


----------



## innit (Jun 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Or maybe they just like food.


Then they should go to My Father's Place and get a chicken patty.

Oh wait, they can't cos it's now a poncy cocktail bar. 

There were always plenty of places to eat in Brixton.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 6, 2015)

It certainly doesn't feel like a "green oasis'' to me. I went to Windrush square afterwards for some peace and space!


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

innit said:


> Then they should go to My Father's Place and get a chicken patty.
> 
> Oh wait, they can't cos it's now a poncy cocktail bar.
> 
> There were always plenty of places to eat in Brixton.


To be fair, MFP operated intermittently in the latter years until, and closed after, the owner died. And his family still owned it when it was let to the current occupants. May still do.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Or maybe they just like food.



But that's not the primary selling point of that blurb above. The food is just a regular burger and isn't mentioned until the final line. If the blurb was about the many gastronomic delights to be found in Pop Brixton, then I think you'd have a point, but that's not what they're selling there. They're selling this:

"Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life."

The dog whistle phrase there is "yet separate". Otherwise you could easily run that sentence without it. But then it wouldn't have the same appeal to the same people.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 6, 2015)

I think you are reading too much into it. Who reads that blurb anyway? People go there for the food.


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## madolesance (Jun 6, 2015)

Pop Brixton seems to be very forced, ie, 'build it and they will come'. Where as the village may have have it's faults, a lot of what happened there was more of a slow process, aided yes by 'SpaceMakers' but all together seems more natural rather than an container park that is totally profit driven. Unfortunately to many people these days are prepared to buy in to that shallow 'life style'.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 6, 2015)

Or some small traders are giving it a go.

Good luck to them.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I agree its a change in people socialising.
> It was also cheap. Unlike a lot of online gambling which is becoming a problem now.
> It was a different time. Bingo halls were not about getting one to empty out ones pockets.





gaijingirl said:


> we had an urban meet in the Camberwell bingo hall way back - before the smoking ban when I was a bit into bingo (but not a smoker) - reckon I shaved at least a year off my life during that period.  Can't remember who else came now... anyone reading?


I had a friend in the mid 1980s who worked at the Granada Bingo in Clapham Junction. Made it sound like Carry on Up the Junction in there.
A way of socialising without any particular objective (apart from enjoying the evening out) - and more profitable for cinema companies to run after the advent of TV.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I think you are reading too much into it. Who reads that blurb anyway? People go there for the food.



But it's a terrible environment in which to eat. A concrete yard full of metal shipping containers. 

I think you're deliberately avoiding the point. I don't know why. I brought up the blurb because it confirmed something I suspected when I was there last night.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Or some small traders are giving it a go.
> 
> Good luck to them.



But the "go" they are "giving" is creating an environment which is separate from Brixton. That was the reality last night, and that intent is confirmed by their blurb. I don't see that as being helpful for the area. It's taking it in the wrong direction.

I'm all for people starting up new enterprises but if you're doing it in Brixton why not make it part of Brixton?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> To be fair, MFP operated intermittently in the latter years until, and closed after, the owner died. And his family still owned it when it was let to the current occupants. May still do.


You are forgetting Ernest who didn't pay the rent. And the person before Ernest who seemed to think the best way to entice customers was to have mini skirted ladies of leisure in the window.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> But the "go" they are "giving" is creating an environment which is separate from Brixton. That was the reality last night, and that intent is confirmed by their blurb. I don't see that as being helpful for the area. It's taking it in the wrong direction.
> 
> I'm all for people starting up new enterprises but if you're doing it in Brixton why not make it part of Brixton?


I went out 9.30 last night down Coldharbour Lane - between Dogstar and POW.
I don't normally go that direction. It hits you in the face (and ears) that you are actually in an ambience more like Blackpool or Manchester - high density hedonism of a certain age and type.

So whilst I agree Pop Brixton is like a cocoon - but so is the whole affected area of late night Brixton at weekends. It is already similar to Clapham, or maybe how Streatham used to be 10 or 15 years ago.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

CH1 said:


> You are forgetting Ernest who didn't pay the rent. And the person before Ernest who seemed to think the best way to entice customers was to have mini skirted ladies of leisure in the window.




Indeed - I over summarised. Nevertheless, not the best example of new businesses ruthlessly pushing out the old. Quite a natural progression in that case.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> But it's a terrible environment in which to eat. A concrete yard full of metal shipping containers.


Is there a lot of concrete? All timber and steel from what I recall.

Nowt wrong with concrete anyway.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> The pollsters got this one bang on.


Yet people seem to have warmed to the new Granville Market. Perhaps that's because it appears genuinely more inclusive and accessible and doesn't charge a fortune for a trendy unit ringed by security guards.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> But it's a terrible environment in which to eat. A concrete yard full of metal shipping containers.
> 
> I think you're deliberately avoiding the point. I don't know why. I brought up the blurb because it confirmed something I suspected when I was there last night.



I don't think Pop's particularly great either. 

What point am I deliberately avoiding?


----------



## Ms T (Jun 6, 2015)

I agree that the security guards (who were there during the day when I went to have a look-see) are off-putting.  I liked the greenhouse space upstairs, complete with massive table and chairs, and unusual flowers.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 6, 2015)

Security guards sounds completely unnecessary, and would put me off visiting.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> But the "go" they are "giving" is creating an environment which is separate from Brixton. That was the reality last night, and that intent is confirmed by their blurb. I don't see that as being helpful for the area. It's taking it in the wrong direction.
> 
> I'm all for people starting up new enterprises but if you're doing it in Brixton why not make it part of Brixton?



I have seen quite a few Brixton people in there, eating or catering. 

That makes it part of Brixton for me. 

I don't see the enclosedness as being a big problem.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 6, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Security guards sounds completely unnecessary, and would put me off visiting.



It's not ideal. 

Might be needed while there is a lot of construction work still going on etc and gear lying around.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Security guards sounds completely unnecessary, and would put me off visiting.


Well, someone has to keep the oiks out.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I have seen quite a few Brixton people in there, eating or catering.
> 
> That makes it part of Brixton for me.
> 
> I don't see the enclosedness as being a big problem.



enclosed space + security on the gate = exclusion
please don't forget this is a *public space*,
not a private resort for champagne swilling architects and foodie socialites


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Or some small traders are giving it a go.
> 
> Good luck to them.


The " fish and chip ' shop you were bigging up isnt local
they are an outfit well established in Camden
http://www.hookrestaurants.com/
they also seem to have a big chunk of space in the community greenhouse mentioned in Ms T 's post



> _The new venue, which has room for 18 covers inside and 100 in a greenhouse, will open on 16 June after a soft launch period from 9 to 14 June._


https://www.thecaterer.com/articles/358219/fish-restaurant-hook-to-open-in-pop-brixton
.... isnt that greenhouse the last vestige of the "grow Brixton" concept ?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, someone has to keep the oiks out.


Any credible evidence of this happening or is this smear?


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I don't think Pop's particularly great either.
> 
> What point am I deliberately avoiding?



That it's deliberately set up to be an environment that's apart from Brixton. I guess you don't see it that way, so we'll have to agree to disagree. 

None of the people in there last night looked like Brixton people, but then I haven't lived in Brixton for a few years now. Maybe my idea of what Brixton's like is ancient history.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Any credible evidence of this happening or is this smear?


What do you think they're there for? To wave hello to everyone as they come in?


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> enclosed space + security on the gate = exclusion
> please don't forget this is a *public space*,
> not a private resort for champagne swilling architects and foodie socialites



Spot on.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> That it's deliberately set up to be an environment that's apart from Brixton. I guess you don't see it that way, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> None of the people in there last night looked like Brixton people, but then I haven't lived in Brixton for a few years now. Maybe my idea of what Brixton's like is ancient history.


And - to repeat - Granville Market shows that it's perfectly possible to open up a new venture for small traders and not give off the impression that it's something totally separate from the location.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> And - to repeat - Granville Market shows that it's perfectly possible to open up a new venture for small traders and not give off the impression that it's something totally separate from the location.



I'm a bit confused. Isn't Granville Market now Brixton Village? I've probably missed something, as I'm rarely in Brixton now. Has something new opened?


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> And - to repeat - Granville Market shows that it's perfectly possible to open up a new venture for small traders and not give off the impression that it's something totally separate from the location.



Hang on, just googled it. Sorry should have done that first.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> I'm a bit confused. Isn't Granville Market now Brixton Village? I've probably missed something, as I'm rarely in Brixton now. Has something new opened?


No it's the new space that opened up opposite. It actually feels connected to the area. 

















http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/05/brixton-poets-perform-at-granville-market-space/


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Yet people seem to have warmed to the new Granville Market. Perhaps that's because it appears genuinely more inclusive and accessible and doesn't charge a fortune for a trendy unit ringed by security guards.


Was there for the first time today. It's very good. I love the sitting area around the bar. It was only 12 so I (just about) moved on. Will go back though. 

For info it seems they start late-ish some were still setting up at that time.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Was there for the first time today. It's very good. I love the sitting area around the bar. It was only 12 so I (just about) moved on. Will go back though.
> 
> For info it seems they start late-ish some were still setting up at that time.


I like the fact that it all feels quite ad hoc, unfussy and untrendy. A friend went there mistakenly thinking there was a drawing thing for kids. There wasn't but a trader brought over some boards and pens, the kids scribbled away and then managed to sell a couple of their prints!


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, someone has to keep the oiks out.


Is there evidence that's why they are there? Do you know anybody who was refused entry? 

The 2 security on Wednesday were really friendly. One of them welcomed us and gave us a map. I hope everybody was given the same courtesy. I have no reason to think they would not be.


----------



## T & P (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, someone has to keep the oiks out.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> What do you think they're there for? To wave hello to everyone as they come in?


It's what your post implies they are they for that I (and apparently several others) am picking you up on. 

Man up, fella. If you want to say something, why beat about the bush and pretend you meant something innocuous?


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It's what your post implies they are they for that I (and apparently several others) am picking you up on.
> 
> Man up, fella. If you want to say something, why beat about the bush and pretend you meant something innocuous?


Seeing as you're so fucking determined to make a MASSIVE INTERNET POINT out of this, let me make it clearer. An oik is a "an uncouth or obnoxious person."

The bouncers are there to ensure that Pop Brixton has no such elements. It is designed to provide a super safe, homogeneous, happy clappy and totally sanitised shopping experience for those with sufficient disposable income and the tourist traffic. There are no rough edges. Everything is Time Out and estate agent brochure friendly. Me, I don't like that at all. But I guess some people - like you probably - love that.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 6, 2015)

I like it


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I like it


I thought you might.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Seeing as you're so fucking determined to make a MASSIVE INTERNET POINT out of this, let me make it clearer. An oik is a "an uncouth or obnoxious person."
> 
> The bouncers are there to ensure that Pop Brixton has no such elements. It is designed to provide a super safe, homogeneous, happy clappy and totally sanitised shopping experience for those with sufficient disposable income and the tourist traffic. There are no rough edges. Everything is Time Out and estate agent brochure friendly. Me, I don't like that at all. But I guess some people - like you probably - love that.


Uncouth - your word - means lacking in good manners, refinement and grace. Have you any evidence that the security has been tasked with keeping out such folk?


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Uncouth - your word - means lacking in good manners, refinement and grace. Have you any evidence that the security has been tasked with keeping out such folk?


Jesus. Get a life and go find someone else to play internet dictionary top trumps with, ffs.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 6, 2015)

We're all different and that's what makes life wonderful


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Jesus. Get a life and go find someone else to play internet dictionary top trumps with, ffs.


When I told you to get a life, I was issued with a banning warning. And then you do the same. Like I said, man up precious flower.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> When I told you to get a life, I was issued with a banning warning. And then you do the same. Like I said, man up precious flower.


OMG! OMG! Surely not!


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> OMG! OMG! Surely not!


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> We're all different and that's what makes life wonderful


Things are usually a lot more wonderful when you've got a nice wad of disposable income to play with or perhaps you've got property to fall back on. I'm finding that folks without sufficient cash to join in with the trendy new things around town are being increasingly overlooked and excluded from the pop-up-tastic nu-Brixton.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 6, 2015)

Why doesn't someone just email them to ask what the security policy is?

Edit - turning away dogs is policy it seems, according to BrixtonBlog who just tweeted to say Rosa, the Bookmongers Dog was turned away yesterday.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 6, 2015)

The best things in life are free


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The best things in life are free


Disposable cash sure does make them sweeter, though.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Edit - turning away dogs is policy it seems, according to BrixtonBlog who just tweeted to say Rosa, the Bookmongers Dog was turned away yesterday.


Well, that's not very inclusive for starters.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, that's not very inclusive for starters.


I have a dog. I appreciate being allowed in with a dog. I don't expect it however.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 6, 2015)

I guess the thing is, call a spade a spade. Just bill it as a shopping and eating area, not a public community space, and be done. Lots less confusion and frustration.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 6, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I guess the thing is, call a spade a spade. Just bill it as a shopping and eating area, not a public community space, and be done. Lots less confusion and frustration.



Good point. 

As I have said twice if the Council had let out the space on a commercial basis with some of the income being used to make up for government cuts I would not be so bothered by it.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Good point.
> 
> As I have said twice if the Council had let out the space on a commercial basis with some of the income being used to make up for government cuts I would not be so bothered by it.


As I understand it, council gets half the profit. Investors who put in the million or so to build get the other half.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I guess the thing is, call a spade a spade. Just bill it as a shopping and eating area, not a public community space, and be done. Lots less confusion and frustration.


Indeed. And what makes it worse was the way the project morphed - without consultation - from a touchy feely community green project into something that tickles the fancy of NZ wine importers and entrepreneurs dreaming of trendy business parks.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Jun 6, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Why doesn't someone just email them to ask what the security policy is?
> 
> Edit - turning away dogs is policy it seems, according to BrixtonBlog who just tweeted to say Rosa, the Bookmongers Dog was turned away yesterday.


They turned someone with a dog away today while I was there.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> An oik is a "an uncouth or obnoxious person."
> 
> The bouncers are there to ensure that Pop Brixton has no such elements. It is designed to provide a super safe, homogeneous, happy clappy and totally sanitised shopping experience for those with sufficient disposable income and the tourist traffic. There are no rough edges. Everything is Time Out and estate agent brochure friendly.



But is this actually true? Is it a policy Pop Brixton has set out? If it is I'll never cross the doorstep again.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> But is this actually true? Is it a policy Pop Brixton has set out? If it is I'll never cross the doorstep again.


It's my opinion. I don't think the management of Pop Brixton want it to be like a real public square where all sorts of people freely assemble. You can't bring in a dog and I imagine you can't bring in your own drinks either. They want you to spend money, not hang out.  Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. What do you think the team of bouncers are there for?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> As I understand it, council gets half the profit. Investors who put in the million or so to build get the other half.



Any links for that?


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> It's my opinion. I don't think the management of Pop Brixton want it to be like a real public square where all sorts of people freely assemble. You can't bring in a dog and I imagine you can't bring in your own drinks either. They want you to spend money, not hang out.  Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. What do you think the team of bouncers are there for?


I assumed it was part of the license requirements and to keep the numbers regulated. Bouncers are a fact of life everywhere now. As I said before they were very friendly when we went in last Wednesday.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2015)

And here's proof that it's possible to open up a new market for small businesses without turning it into some any-town pile of pop up homogenised blandness. 







http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/06/chilling-out-in-brixtons-granville-market-on-coldharbour-lane/


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 6, 2015)

I'm glad dogs aren't allowed in by the way. I don't like them. I don't want to see somebody picking up their shit in a plastic bag from the wooden boards. Nor do I want to see them cocking a leg against the side of a container, and I sure as fuck don't want some dog sniffing at me and generally doing dog stuff if I'm trying to chill out and have something to eat and/or drink.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Any links for that?


Have you checked this link?
http://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s73039/Impact Hub ODDR - TB.docx.pdf
(view or download)
There is lots of info there - including a reference to waiving requirement for competitive tender. I can't see any reference as to divvying up the profits though.

Pop Brixton are referred to as the lessees. 

What surprised me was this:

The project will be overseen by the High Street Fund steering group. The initial list of attendees includes; Stuart Horwood – CEO of the Brixton Market Traders Federation; Susie Barlow - Brixton BID; Bill Linksey, Heritage Regeneration Partnership & Brixton Society; Owain Jones – Cross River Partnership; Philippe Castaing – Pop Brixton and Brixton Green Trustee; Joost Beunderman – Impact Hub Brixton; Tom Shakhli - Brixton Pound; Cllr Matt Parr, Coldharbour Ward Member; Tom Bridgman – Delivery Lead – Regeneration, LBL (Chair); Diane Worrell – Compliance and Development Manager (markets), LBL; Gail Rowe – Enterprise Manager, LBL; Ellie Cook, Brixton Townscape Heritage Initiative Manager, LBL; LBL; Mark Trevethan – Transport Policy Manager, LBL

I was chatting to Bill the other day on central Brixton matters, and he did not seem consciously aware that he is supervising the Pop Brixton project (along with all the others mentioned above)


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 6, 2015)

Look forward to phase two and three of the development, and then seeing it settle in over the summer.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 6, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Look forward to phase two and three of the development, and then seeing it settle in over the summer.



What are you expecting from phase two and phase three?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 6, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I was chatting to Bill the other day on central Brixton matters, and he did not seem consciously aware that he is supervising the Pop Brixton project (along with all the others mentioned above)


Are you saying Bill Linksey is not doing his job?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 6, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> What are you expecting from phase two and phase three?


The emphasis is on non retail and local businesses, so it'll be interesting to see if the quality of applications allow that idea to be realised.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Are you saying Bill Linksey is not doing his job?


Not really - I think the council is suggesting that this is a community project, but the community probably get an hour every two months to discuss it if that. Remember there is the Townscape Heritage Initiative going on. Not to mention the inevitable intense discussions over the Popes Road toilets.

TBF Bill is in a minority on that list - not having a job - unlike most of them he is a genuine volunteer.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

One piece on this had a photo of a big performance space with a band playing. I didn't see that last night - is it not open yet?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 6, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> The emphasis is on non retail and local businesses, so it'll be interesting to see if the quality of applications allow that idea to be realised.



Yep. Will be interesting to see if this followed through.

The emphasis was once on growing and community gardens.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 6, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Not really - I think the council is suggesting that this is a community project, but the community probably get an hour every two months to discuss it if that. Remember there is the Townscape Heritage Initiative going on. Not to mention the inevitable intense discussions over the Popes Road toilets.
> 
> TBF Bill is in a minority on that list - not having a job - unlike most of them he is a genuine volunteer.


O f course he has a job - he's a member of the steering group. You said he "did not seem consciously aware that he is supervising the Pop Brixton project".

Is he doing his job or not?


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

http://belowtheriver.co.uk/must-pop-brixton/

Maybe this is an architect's proposal that didn't actually happen?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> O f course he has a job - he's a member of the steering group. You said he "did not seem consciously aware that he is supervising the Pop Brixton project".
> 
> Is he doing his job or not?


Your definition is different to mine.

To me having a job means getting paid a salary.

That is why I personally think it disingenuous for the project to be presented as a community project.
If Bill has a job what is the JD, how was recruitment arranged, who provides supervision?

I think you are trying to generate a spat.


----------



## clandestino (Jun 6, 2015)

Ah yes, seeing it blown up big I can see it's computer generated. Shame - something like this is what the place needs...

It was just boring. It needed some spark, some eccentricity, something interesting. Maybe for the people who go there, just being in Brixton is sparky and eccentric enough?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 6, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Your definition is different to mine.
> 
> To me having a job means getting paid a salary.
> 
> ...


I think you're talking shit about people. Best stop.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I think you're talking shit about people. Best stop.


You escalated my views on project management in a council report into a personal attack. Not valid I'm afraid.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 6, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I was chatting to Bill the other day on central Brixton matters, and h*e did not seem consciously aware* that he is supervising the Pop Brixton project (along with all the others mentioned above)





CH1 said:


> You escalated my views on project management in a council report into a personal attack. Not valid I'm afraid.


I just asked you a question. Is he doing his job?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

clandestino said:


> http://belowtheriver.co.uk/must-pop-brixton/
> 
> Maybe this is an architect's proposal that didn't actually happen?





clandestino said:


> Ah yes, seeing it blown up big I can see it's computer generated. Shame - something like this is what the place needs...
> 
> It was just boring. It needed some spark, some eccentricity, something interesting. Maybe for the people who go there, just being in Brixton is sparky and eccentric enough?




The containers are in place, that area is unfinished and closed off.
It's pretty obvious when you're in there though.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Any links for that?


No. Foi it.

May have been told that at the q&a though not sure it was there.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 6, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I just asked you a question. Is he doing his job?



Why are you starting an argument?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 6, 2015)

editor said:


> It's my opinion. I don't think the management of Pop Brixton want it to be like a real public square where all sorts of people freely assemble. You can't bring in a dog and I imagine you can't bring in your own drinks either. They want you to spend money, not hang out.  Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. What do you think the team of bouncers are there for?


Phillippe was asked about it being public space at the Reclaim Q&A and most definitely said people were welcome to come in and eat their own lunch, bring a book and chill out without buying from the cafes and shops. Not sure if that extended to alcohol.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 7, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Why are you starting an argument?



I think it was a fair question. 

CH1 was suggesting that someone ostensibly monitoring the project did not know about the project - which implies that the project is not monitored properly.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> No. Foi it.
> 
> May have been told that at the q&a though not sure it was there.



That's odd.

It would seem strange slapping in an FoI just to try and find out the validity of a random thought posted on a message board, with nothing further to back it up.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 7, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I think it was a fair question.
> 
> CH1 was suggesting that someone ostensibly monitoring the project did not know about the project - which implies that the project is not monitored properly.



Then perhaps he needs to be a little less aggressive in his asking. 

And yes, if the monitoring body are not aware of their role, then that is a huge issue.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> And here's proof that it's possible to open up a new market for small businesses without turning it into some any-town pile of pop up homogenised blandness.



It seems a great project but isn't it a weekend open air market - a few summer tents and trestle tables? pop Brixton (a) mostly isn't open air (b) isn't weekend only and (c) isn't a market.

What comparison are you drawing?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> That's odd.
> 
> It would seem strange slapping in an FoI just to try and find out the validity of a random thought posted on a message board, with nothing further to back it up.



You're absolutely right to be cautious. There's a lot of utter shite flowing across this thread.

As I said, I thought I'd heard it at the Reclaim Q&A. A quick look at the handout of the event confirmed it.

Point 15: Lambeth gets 50% of profits.

The Buzz summary of the meeting appears to have missed this point.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The Buzz summary of the meeting appears to have missed this point.


Impossible! No detail escapes Brixton's Woodward and Bernstein.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Point 15: Lambeth gets 50% of profits.



I wonder how the profits will be calculated, presumably this will be profits on the rental of the units but I could be wrong
I would imagine that the architects fees, the pr company, the brand specialists and presumably others including accountants will be deducted before any profits are divvied up
also wonder who's these investors who paid for the erection of the site were......
you are correct about the need to be cautious and with so many corporate and other interests involved the waters of finance could be a bit murky to say the least especially for the uninitiated "joe public"


----------



## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I wonder how the profits will be calculated, presumably this will be profits on the rental of the units
> I would imagine that the architects fees, the pr company, the brand specialists and presumably others including accountants will be deducted before any profits are divvied up
> also wonder who's these investors who paid for the erection of the site were......


How the profit is calculated is a question I raised some way back in this thread.

Of course operating costs come off profit. PR and accounting would be valid costs. CTs fees and their treatment in the calculation should be made transparent.

Who the investors are is public information.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm glad dogs aren't allowed in by the way. I don't like them. I don't want to see somebody picking up their shit in a plastic bag from the wooden boards. Nor do I want to see them cocking a leg against the side of a container, and I sure as fuck don't want some dog sniffing at me and generally doing dog stuff if I'm trying to chill out and have something to eat and/or drink.


I feel much the same way about other people's screaming kids. 

(Not that my dog would ever shit on wooden decking, I'll have you know ).


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> How the profit is calculated is a question I raised some way back in this thread.
> 
> Of course operating costs come off profit. PR and accounting would be valid costs. CTs fees and their treatment in the calculation should be made transparent.
> 
> Who the investors are is public information.



I would say that what and what isn't _valid_ is open to debate, a more organic operation with less tastemakers being paid
for telling people how cool and groovy the site is would be more in keeping with the concept of a public space imho
[ the presence of security and fencing and the costs associated is another bite out of the the profits ]
would you not agree the monetisation of the space by private companies is questionable and comparable with the Infamous Ice Bar on Windrush Square ?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I would say that what and what isn't _valid_ is open to debate, a more organic operation with less tastemakers being paid
> for telling people how cool and groovy the site is would be more in keeping with the concept of a public space imho
> [ the presence of security and fencing and the costs associated is another bite out of the the profits ]
> would you not agree the monetisation of the space by private companies is questionable and comparable with the Infamous Ice Bar on Windrush Square ?


You're comparing a knocked down multistory car park scheduled in the master plan for redevelopment with a public square. I don't see the comparison. No.

And no, what constitutes a valid deductible cost on a commercial business is set by HMRC.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 7, 2015)

I haven't followed this closely in the past but I'd be surprised - and very pleased - if pop Brixton was a "public space". It's the same as a mall, isn't it (conditional public access)?


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

I just popped in now. You'd be hard pressed to find a more homogenised slice of people anywhere in Brixton. It looked like a trendy market in Clapham.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It seems a great project but isn't it a weekend open air market - a few summer tents and trestle tables? pop Brixton (a) mostly isn't open air (b) isn't weekend only and (c) isn't a market.
> 
> What comparison are you drawing?


There's lots of entirely valid comparisons to be made: both are new market spaces. Both sell things. Both big up their local trader connections. Both sell food, drink and crafts.  Both make claims about affordability. And both claim to be community-based projects, although one seems to mainly attract  a very narrow demographic.


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## Up the junction (Jun 7, 2015)

Jesus. "They both sell things". Where's the Pulitzer Prize.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 7, 2015)

I don't mind dogs or kids as long as they are properly sedated and chained down.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Jesus. "They both sell things". Where's the Pulitzer Prize.


Notably you ignore all the other points like the pathetic, pointless troll you are.


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## Up the junction (Jun 7, 2015)

Ace, you didn't respond to mine.


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## newbie (Jun 7, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> would you not agree the monetisation of the space by private companies is questionable and comparable with the Infamous Ice Bar on Windrush Square ?



the ex carpark is not public space, unlike further along the road which is monetised every sunday by a private company.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 7, 2015)

I have to say I applaud the energy with which you lambast the things you don't like. Might be more constructive, however, to put that energy to good use in celebrating the things you do like.


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## newbie (Jun 7, 2015)

are you really having a go at me for making a single, one line, post on this thread?


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## SpamMisery (Jun 7, 2015)

newbie said:


> are you really having a go at me for making a single, one line, post on this thread?



If you meant me, then no 

[EDIT] actually, that looked a bit sarcastic. I genuinely mean no I wasn't having a go at you


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## Ms T (Jun 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I feel much the same way about other people's screaming kids.
> 
> (Not that my dog would ever shit on wooden decking, I'll have you know ).


Nor my (borrowed) dog, who would be allowed in anyway as she is a guide dog.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I have to say I applaud the energy with which you lambast the things you don't like. Might be more constructive, however, to put that energy to good use in celebrating the things you do like.


 This thread is about Pop Brixton and related topics. No one's asking for your ill thought-out and off-topic 'advice' on personal matters.


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## Ms T (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> I just popped in now. You'd be hard pressed to find a more homogenised slice of people anywhere in Brixton. It looked like a trendy market in Clapham.


I don't think that's completely fair.  It looked very busy when I walked past a couple of hours ago, and there were all sorts of people going in and out.  It reminded me broadly of the fairly young and trendy clientele of lots of place in Brixton, including Kaff.  And I couldn't see any security guards, which is good.


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## Ms T (Jun 7, 2015)

newbie said:


> the ex carpark is not public space, unlike further along the road which is monetised every sunday by a private company.



The farmer's market traders are in discussions directly with the council, I think, about staying on Brixton Station Road as London Farmer's Markets are pulling out.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

Ms T said:


> I don't think that's completely fair.  It looked very busy when I walked past a couple of hours ago, and there were all sorts of people going in and out.  It reminded me broadly of the fairly young and trendy clientele of lots of place in Brixton, including Kaff.  And I couldn't see any security guards, which is good.


No, it was entirely fair of what I saw. It was a completely homogenised monoculture crowd. And there was a security guard right by the door. And, unlike Kaff, this is supposed to be a "community" venture.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> This thread is about Pop Brixton and related topics. No one's asking for your ill thought-out and off-topic 'advice' on personal matters.



Totally agree. Can you stop discussing Granville Market on this thread about Pop Brixton please


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## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

Ms T said:


> The farmer's market traders are in discussions directly with the council, I think, about staying on Brixton Station Road as London Farmer's Markets are pulling out.


Did I read on here that Night Markets(UK) were looking to take it over? They run the gastro night market on Windrush Square, Canada Water Plaza artisan food market and Waterloo Cut market.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 7, 2015)

Brixton is turning into a 24hr feeding trough.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Why are you starting an argument?



Because he's an arse.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Brixton is turning into a 24hr feeding trough.



The feeding element isn't insurmountably-bad.
The street-pissing, shitting and vomiting is, though.


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## han (Jun 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The feeding element isn't insurmountably-bad.
> The street-pissing, shitting and vomiting is, though.


People are shitting in the street?! [emoji15] [emoji30] 

It's normal for people to piss and puke on every high street in England (sadly), which is wrong, of course, but it's the way things are. But shitting?!


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## Ms T (Jun 7, 2015)

There's a lady with mental health problems who regularly relieves herself on our street. It's a bit disconcerting.  The other day she was lying in the road, apparently unconscious, but actually only having a sleep in the sun.  Luckily some mounted police officers were in the area and escorted her back to her sheltered housing.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 7, 2015)

han said:


> People are shitting in the street?! [emoji15] [emoji30]
> 
> It's normal for people to piss and puke on every high street in England (sadly), which is wrong, of course, but it's the way things are. But shitting?!



Yup, and not just the usual suspects and not just in Brixton. My former brother-in-law works for a certain big French contractor that deals with municipal cleaning and waste, and human turds are becoming a (pardon the pun) big job clean-up wise, especially as the H & S implications can be as stark as for sharps. According to him, the blame lies squarely with local authorities closing down public loos.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

It's hardly a surprise there's more people pissing in the streets: the amount of places serving booze must have tripled in the past few years and Brixton's nightife is the busiest it's ever been. And come 4am (when many of the clubs are closing) there's no toilet in sight.


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## han (Jun 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yup, and not just the usual suspects and not just in Brixton. My former brother-in-law works for a certain big French contractor that deals with municipal cleaning and waste, and human turds are becoming a (pardon the pun) big job clean-up wise, especially as the H & S implications can be as stark as for sharps. According to him, the blame lies squarely with local authorities closing down public loos.


That's terrible. 
The lack of public loos is a real problem, isn't it. Everywhere in London. Cos they don't make money. [emoji35] 

Well, the loos at Pop Brixton are open to everyone, and really nice, so everyone in the area should bear that in mind, next time they need a dump. [emoji6]


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## han (Jun 7, 2015)

Ms T said:


> There's a lady with mental health problems who regularly relieves herself on our street. It's a bit disconcerting.  The other day she was lying in the road, apparently unconscious, but actually only having a sleep in the sun.  Luckily some mounted police officers were in the area and escorted her back to her sheltered housing.


[emoji20]


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## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

We went in this afternoon for a look around. I really liked it. It was heaving, but everyone was in a good mood. Interesting talking to a couple of the businesses about what inspired them to set up- everyone v happy to talk even though they were busy. 

Much more mixed crowd than the village: not representative of Brixton as about 50% white, but I was expecting from what I'd read on here much, much less diversity. We had fish and chips in hook (and it was absolutely fantastic) - table behind us were celebrating an 80th birthday, so not all young professionals either. Whole place vibrating with competing music and smelling faintly of jerk chicken and spices.... Felt quite brixton this afternoon! 
Looks like quite a lot left to open too. 

There was a security guard, didn't notice him till I was leaving, but it didn't feel out of place tbh. Most places that sell booze in the sunshine have bouncers these days.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Have you checked this link?
> http://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s73039/Impact Hub ODDR - TB.docx.pdf
> (view or download)
> There is lots of info there - including a reference to waiving requirement for competitive tender. I can't see any reference as to divvying up the profits though.
> ...



Had a quick read of the report.
Confusing range of bodies supervising this.

For Pop Brixton specifically there is a Project Steering Group and a Project Board.  Seems unnecessary duplication.

For the High Street Fund there is also a Steering Group and Board.

The officer report is about moving the "Impact Hub" to Pop Brixton. As you say there is an issue of a waiver for tendering. Council say moving it to Pop Brixton is the most economical way to do it. The Impact Hub has to move due to redevelopment of Town Hall.

For  whatever reason the Council finds itself contractually obliged to provide new premises for the Hub. 3.2 of the reports says that due to the Council getting rid of office space it has no where to move the Hub. Thats interesting as the Council argued that it does not need  so much office space when it proposed the New Town development. Looks to me that getting rid of office space will mean in future that Council will have problems.

The report is about funding Pop Brixton to make office space for the Hub. This will be a combination of Council money and a grant from the High Street Fund.

So the Council is using part of the High Street Fund to overcome its contractual problem of providing space for the Hub.

2.1 says the the Hub will be in space that was originally going to be outdoor workshop area. Yet another change from the original scheme.

2.4 says that Hub membership is not that large but Council think that it will increase once it has moved to Pop Brixton. 6 (Risks) says that if membership does not increase the Hub could be financially unviable. Make me wonder if there is a real defined need for an Impact Hub rather than some other use for this funding. Looks to me that this is being pushed by Council leadership rather than looking at local community needs.

As has been discussed on these boards the Impact Hub is one of those Nu Labour ideas that is the funky new entrepreneurial capitalism. Its getting funding as a pet project of Nu Labour.

I assume as this part of the Pop Brixton scheme is funded by the High Street Fund it will come under High Street Funding Steering Group and Board. However if I am correct the rest of Pop Brixton is a separate issue. That is where the confusion with Bills role ( Brixton Society). He is not supervising Pop Brixton. He is on the steering of the High Street Fund which oversees use of fund. In this case the move of the Hub to Pop Brixton. Not the whole project.

The trouble with Steering Groups is that they are Council plus volunteers. The volunteers do not necessarily have the final say. In the end the Council does.

Which may be why there is a Board. This is a Council body only. I think.

What is annoying throughout the report is the rewriting of history of this meanwhile use.

From the start officers say Pop Brixton




> Report summary
> In 2014 the Council ran a competition to identify a partner to deliver meanwhile activity, focused
> on employment and enterprise outcomes, on the former temporary ice rink on Pope’s Road.
> *Carl Turner Architects (CTA) was successful and ultimately established POP Brixton*



It was originally Grow Brixton. With CTA and Edible Bus Stop. EBS appear to be written out of the history of this scheme.

Clever wording by officers using the word "ultimately". ie after the original scheme was ditched.

The report says that the Impact Hub will be in addition to the proposed 20% at affordable office/ workshop space. Also says what is "affordable" is yet to be defined.


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## cuppa tee (Jun 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's the same as a mall, isn't it ?



thats settled then, a community project has morphed into a food court, with a greenhouse planted by volunteers so
punters at the nu-fish and chip shop don't have to worry about a spot of rain and we can forget about the original concept
cos we like a nice bit of grub with others of our leaning.


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## DietCokeGirl (Jun 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I haven't followed this closely in the past but I'd be surprised - and very pleased - if pop Brixton was a "public space". It's the same as a mall, isn't it (conditional public access)?


That's not how it was originally sold to residents though. That's what all this stems from. Of the two competing shortlisted bids, this one was supposed to offer:
_"...a place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. Grow:brixton gives young people of Brixton the chance to acquire new skills in building, gardening or music, offering apprenticeships and opportunities. 
They aim to give young local businesses the chance to get started in rented, affordable accommodation amongst other like-minded people. Their vision is for a self-sufficient community, organised and run by designers, builders and gardeners and managed through the local residents and small businesses. It would offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy.
Former sea containers will create a variety of rentable space. Teams, including apprentices would fit them out internally, for small businesses, workshops and studio space. A series of polytunnels to grow plants and vegetables around a large polytunnel that would house the kitchen and eating area.
This would be run by the founders of Canteen who are committed to employing local people and apprentices. The aim is to create a place that gives young people the opportunity to learn new skills, such as gardening, cooking, building or how to record their own music."_

That's very different to an open-air mall. It's done, but it's a real shame it evolved the way it did.


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> _It would offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy._


Public green space, my arse.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 7, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> _"...a place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. Grow:brixton gives young people of Brixton the chance to acquire new skills in building, gardening or music, offering apprenticeships and opportunities.
> They aim to give young local businesses the chance to get started in rented, affordable accommodation amongst other like-minded people. Their vision is for a self-sufficient community, organised and run by designers, builders and gardeners and managed through the local residents and small businesses. It would offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy.
> Former sea containers will create a variety of rentable space. Teams, including apprentices would fit them out internally, for small businesses, workshops and studio space. A series of polytunnels to grow plants and vegetables around a large polytunnel that would house the kitchen and eating area.
> This would be run by the founders of Canteen who are committed to employing local people and apprentices. The aim is to create a place that gives young people the opportunity to learn new skills, such as gardening, cooking, building or how to record their own music."_
> ...



But you don't know that this vision would have worked. It might have. It might not.

Likewise, the scheme as is might not work.

And what happened to Canteen, mentioned above?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 7, 2015)

Building site with food and shopping.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

leanderman said:


> But you don't know that this vision would have worked. It might have. It might not.
> 
> Likewise, the scheme as is might not work.


If there was any doubt that the original vision would not have worked, then the bid should not have been declared the winner.


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## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> If there was any doubt that the original vision would not have worked, then the bid should not have been declared the winner.


Are you ever going to reveal the huge scandal you were promising about why EBS and CT fell out?


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Are you ever going to reveal the huge scandal you were promising about why EBS and CT fell out?


I don't recall saying that there was a "huge scandal" but I do know that Edible Bus Stop are very keen to get across their side of the story, and part of the process involves them waiting on a FoI request. 

Regardless of any 'scandal,' as a Brixton resident I feel very ripped off with this scheme. We were promised a "public green space" and instead got the "hottest independent business space."


----------



## leanderman (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> If there was any doubt that the original vision would not have worked, then the bid should not have been declared the winner.



I doubt any decision is taken without doubt.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I doubt any decision is taken without doubt.


Then those supposed doubts - if they existed - should have been openly presented to the community.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Then those supposed doubts - if they existed - should have been openly presented to the community.



Lambeth awarding a project to X does not necessarily mean X deserves to win the project, or will be able to deliver it.


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## Up the junction (Jun 7, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> thats settled then, a community project has morphed into a food court, with a greenhouse planted by volunteers so
> punters at the nu-fish and chip shop don't have to worry about a spot of rain and we can forget about the original concept
> cos we like a nice bit of grub with others of our leaning.


I asked a question about why people were using the term "public space". You seem to be grafting a lot onto that question. LOL.

Let me rephrase that question as you are one of those using the term: What was the origin of this being "public space" because, while it sounds great,  I don't quite understand how it could have been?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 7, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> That's not how it was originally sold to residents though. That's what all this stems from. Of the two competing shortlisted bids, this one was supposed to offer:
> _"...a place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. Grow:brixton gives young people of Brixton the chance to acquire new skills in building, gardening or music, offering apprenticeships and opportunities.
> They aim to give young local businesses the chance to get started in rented, affordable accommodation amongst other like-minded people. Their vision is for a self-sufficient community, organised and run by designers, builders and gardeners and managed through the local residents and small businesses. It would offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy.
> Former sea containers will create a variety of rentable space. Teams, including apprentices would fit them out internally, for small businesses, workshops and studio space. A series of polytunnels to grow plants and vegetables around a large polytunnel that would house the kitchen and eating area.
> ...


Thanks for digging this out.

Is this the shortlisted bid that won?


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Lambeth awarding a project to X does not necessarily mean X deserves to win the project, or will be able to deliver it.


That would seem a very strange way to do business given that Lambeth commissioned the project themselves.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Is this the shortlisted bid that won?


Yes. And it was the one that I enthused about. 

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/03/...d-showcased-brixton-toolbox-and-grow-brixton/


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## innit (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't recall saying that there was a "huge scandal" but I do know that Edible Bus Stop are very keen to get across their side of the story, and part of the process involves them waiting on a FoI request.
> 
> Regardless of any 'scandal,' as a Brixton resident I feel very ripped off with this scheme. We were promised a "public green space" and instead got the "hottest independent business space."


I wanted to like it but to me it feels very sterile and like a watered down version of the village, which felt exciting back in the very early spacemakers days whereas this feels contrived and like a missed opportunity. Maybe it'll improve once the whole site is open, cinema etc.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> That would seem a very strange way to do business given that Lambeth commissioned the project themselves.



Not at all. Lambeth is more than capable of getting it wrong.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

innit said:


> I wanted to like it but to me it feels very sterile and like a watered down version of the village, which felt exciting back in the very early spacemakers days whereas this feels contrived and like a missed opportunity. Maybe it'll improve once the whole site is open, cinema etc.


The Village started with some real grass roots units and so felt a lot more accessible. And a lot oif it was quirky and fun. I liked it.







Pop Brixton is altogether a different beast and has none of the DIY, anyone-can-have-go ethos. That's why we've got NZ wine importers crowdfunding their way onto the site.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Not at all. Lambeth is more than capable of getting it wrong.


So surely the thing to do is complain loud and long and try to hold them accountable for their fuck ups rather than just accepting their broken promises.


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## cuppa tee (Jun 7, 2015)

innit said:


> cinema etc.


If they offered ReelNews a space for one night a month free of charge that might be a step in the right direction


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## cuppa tee (Jun 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I asked a question about why people were using the term "public space". You seem to be grafting a lot onto that question. LOL.
> 
> Let me rephrase that question as you are one of those using the term: What was the origin of this being "public space" because, while it sounds great,  I don't quite understand how it could have been?



Well I am a grafter lol............... anyway let me quote Rushy who is on first name terms with one of the chief protagonists 



> Phillippe was asked about it being public space at the Reclaim Q&A and most definitely said people were welcome to come in and eat their own lunch, bring a book and chill out without buying from the cafes and shops.


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## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

innit said:


> I wanted to like it but to me it feels very sterile and like a watered down version of the village, which felt exciting back in the very early spacemakers days whereas this feels contrived and like a missed opportunity. Maybe it'll improve once the whole site is open, cinema etc.


It needs more that food-albeit good food. I think I saw it at it's best on a sunny Sunday as there were loads of people having fun.... And they were very tolerant of my son (who is ill and therefore quite annoying) upstairs where they do family stuff. Plus they are growing hops and Some really unusual lavenders, which gets them points from me 

Looking forward to seeing what it morphs into.


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## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

editor said:


> That would seem a very strange way to do business given that Lambeth commissioned the project themselves.


Be realistic- Lambeth are notorious for being commercially naive. Which is the nicest way I can think of putting it


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Not at all. Lambeth is more than capable of getting it wrong.



I really am confused about what is your opinion of how its turned out. 

Ru saying that the Council got it wrong?They gave people the impression that it was to be community oriented space which then turned into a commercially driven "Business park for the 21st C" as Cllr Jack Hopkins said. 

If that the case I think a lot of the criticisms of the project , as it turned out , are valid. So I am not clear what you are arguing about.


----------



## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I really am confused about what is your opinion of how its turned out.
> 
> Ru saying that the Council got it wrong?They gave people the impression that it was to be community oriented space which then turned into a commercially driven "Business park for the 21st C" as Cllr Jack Hopkins said.
> 
> If that the case I think a lot of the criticisms of the project , as it turned out , are valid. So I am not clear what you are arguing about.


I think I and he (though he can talk for himself obv) and lots of other people agree it is a shame it isn't a bit more like it was initially described.

But...
- the orig idea was probably a bit utopian- how was it going to make money? But what a lovely idea.
- Lambeth could probably have forseen  where it ended up, but are commercially a bit clueless
- where it has got to is not that bad all things considered- and this is only an early iteration so it will be interesting to see how it develops
- the random sneering about clapham and monocultures is unpleasant, boring and unfair. It undermines valid criticisms.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

Manter said:


> Be realistic- Lambeth are notorious for being commercially naive. Which is the nicest way I can think of putting it



So we are just supposed to shrug our shoulders, move on and accept that just how life is. 

Why do I bother? Is the question I ask myself sometimes. My more lefty acquaintances tell me I should not engage with the Council. Its a waste of time. 

Are Lambeth commercially naive? Any more so than the Bankers in the City who fucked up the economy? 

To defend Lambeth here at least they sometimes try to do things for the people. Unlike the scum in the City, Buy to let merchants and property developers.


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## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So we are just supposed to shrug our shoulders, move on and accept that just how life is.
> 
> Why do I bother? Is the question I ask myself sometimes. My more lefty acquaintances tell me I should not engage with the Council. Its a waste of time.
> 
> ...


I don't think I ever said we should just accept things
And not sure what bankers have to do with pop Brixton tbh.


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## ash (Jun 7, 2015)

Manter said:


> We went in this afternoon for a look around. I really liked it. It was heaving, but everyone was in a good mood. Interesting talking to a couple of the businesses about what inspired them to set up- everyone v happy to talk even though they were busy.
> 
> Much more mixed crowd than the village: not representative of Brixton as about 50% white, but I was expecting from what I'd read on here much, much less diversity. We had fish and chips in hook (and it was absolutely fantastic) - table behind us were celebrating an 80th birthday, so not all young professionals either. Whole place vibrating with competing music and smelling faintly of jerk chicken and spices.... Felt quite brixton this afternoon!
> Looks like quite a lot left to open too.
> ...


Not wanting to be a pedant but if you refer to the census Brixton is more than 50% white. The stereotypes prevail and Brixton is very mixed but saying that less than 50% non-White (I know double double negatives!!)  isn't diverse or representative is a bit strange.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

Manter said:


> I think I and he (though he can talk for himself obv) and lots of other people agree it is a shame it isn't a bit more like it was initially described.
> 
> But...
> - the orig idea was probably a bit utopian- how was it going to make money? But what a lovely idea.
> ...



Ah yes here we go "Utopian".

You mean not driven by the wonderful profit motive.

You might ask yourself why the original proposal got a lot of local support. Perhaps a lot of people want something that is radically different to the crap that a lot of us have had to put up with the last years.


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## sleaterkinney (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Ru saying that the Council got it wrong?They gave people the impression that it was to be community oriented space which then turned into a commercially driven "Business park for the 21st C" as Cllr Jack Hopkins said.



They probably see those two things as not being mutually exclusive.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

Manter said:


> I don't think I ever said we should just accept things
> And not sure what bankers have to do with pop Brixton tbh.



You are saying the Council is commercially naive. I am pointing out that its unfair to have a go at a Council for this. As though its only Councils who are naive unlike other sectors of society. 

You were making a broad generalization about the Council.


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## Tricky Skills (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Had a quick read of the report.



Here's the BBuzz piece on the report from back in March when we first picked up on it.

It just seems a very convenient solution for all involved. Imapct Hub needs a needs a new home. The Council has an odd obligation to fund and support this move. Pop needs to fill the space with paying tenants.

Job's a good 'un.

And so ultimately it is CTA that benefits from the High Street Fund that was originally made available for... the High Street?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Well I am a grafter lol............... anyway let me quote Rushy who is on first name terms with one of the chief protagonists


Same as I know and use our dear leader's first name. Would you say that we are especially cosy?


----------



## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

ash said:


> Not wanting to be a pedant but if you refer to the census Brixton is more than 50% white. The stereotypes prevail and Brixton is very mixed but saying that less than 50% non-White (I know double double negatives!!)  isn't diverse or representative is a bit strange.


Interesting as walking around the market, high street etc it looks less than 50% white. But hey, I stand corrected. Maybe it was representative- but I didn't interview everyone on their antecedents so I can't be sure!


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> They probably see those two things as not being mutually exclusive.



I know thats where I part company with New Labour.


----------



## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Ah yes here we go "Utopian".
> 
> You mean not driven by the wonderful profit motive.
> 
> You might ask yourself why the original proposal got a lot of local support. Perhaps a lot of people want something that is radically different to the crap that a lot of us have had to put up with the last years.


I am not particularly pro profit when it comes to local services as it happens.  But when something has been set up as a commercial venture it needs to be commercially successful.

Bankers, developers etc are not on the whole commercially naive- they are on the whole commercially unprincipled. Which is quite different.



Gramsci said:


> You are saying the Council is commercially naive. I am pointing out that its unfair to have a go at a Council for this. As though its only Councils who are naive unlike other sectors of society.
> 
> You were making a broad generalization about the Council.


I think the council is naive. Certainly after being taken for a ride by Barratts they were very uppity and insisted they could hold their own against developers- poorly paid professional amateurs vs highly paid departments whose entire purpose is to screw councils? And again over places like cressingham- those windows that leaked could have been fixed under warrantee avoiding costs and illness and misery for residents. But they were too naive to use the contract to their advantage. Again, over the Rec, they insist that they have got the best possible contract with Better- when it appears from the outside to be expensive, inefficient, not have half the clauses about improvement and value sharing that I would expect. I do think they are very naive. There may be other people or organisations who are more naive, but that is pretty irrelevant when talking about Lambeth's commercial dealings.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Here's the BBuzz piece on the report from back in March when we first picked up on it.
> 
> It just seems a very convenient solution for all involved. Imapct Hub needs a needs a new home. The Council has an odd obligation to fund and support this move. Pop needs to fill the space with paying tenants.
> 
> ...



Yes it did seem rather odd that this High Street Fund is used in this way. 

My conclusions from reading that report are the same as yours. So I am not that off the wall then.

Need to go and calm down. All this winds me up. 

As I have not bee well this weekend I have been reading Ballards "Super-Cannes" which turns out to be about Business parks for the "21st Century" and gated communities. A nightmarish view of the near future. Or the present as the best sci fi is. Well worth a read.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

Manter said:


> Bankers, developers etc are not on the whole commercially naive- they are on the whole commercially unprincipled. Which is quite different.



I disagree. At least some of them really believe in what they do. Even if it takes bending a few rules to do it.To say they are unprincipled misses the point. This is how Capitalism operates.

As I said in previous post been reading Ballards "Super- Cannes". He goes into this. The on the surface rationality of big business and its mad messianic streak underneath.


----------



## ash (Jun 7, 2015)

Manter said:


> Interesting as walking around the market, high street etc it looks less than 50% white. But hey, I stand corrected. Maybe it was representative- but I didn't interview everyone on their antecedents so I can't be sure!


Lots of people travel in from places like Croydon and Thornton Heath to shop which probably impacts on the visual demographic. Culturally of course there are lots  of Portuguese and other 'white' non British groups but if I remember rightly from the last census White english was the biggest group.


----------



## Manter (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I disagree. At least some of them really believe in what they do. Even if it takes bending a few rules to do it.
> 
> As I said in previous post been reading Ballards "Super- Cannes". He goes into this. The on the surface rationality of big business and its mad messianic streak underneath.


We may be talking at cross purposes. A bank discovers a loophole in a contract or a gap in the regulation. It exploits it because that's the game/they believe that's how you make money under capitalism/it's a dog eat dog world/their responsibility is to their shareholders/the other party will learn to do better next time/etc. None of that is naive, and they can all be part of the thought process that believes in what they are doing: but it is unprincipled as there is no 'well, it may be technically legal but goes against the spirit of the legislation/that may result in short term gain but longer term may have negative consequences/let me look at wider society and the implications of my doing that' moral brake on their actions.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I am not clear what you are arguing about.



I am simply saying that:

Plan A may, or may not, have worked out. No one knows.

And Lambeth's (initial) favouring of Plan A is no recommendation in itself.

To go further:

It's possible that Lambeth did get it wrong in backing Plan A, for two reasons:

1) Plan A fell apart pretty quickly, for as yet unknown reasons

2) Plan A sounded, to some ears, rather Utopian

Therefore when Plan A collapsed and the more commercial Plan B emerged - with a 50 per cent profit share - Lambeth quickly backed it.

In any case, it's too early to judge Plan B, since many elements are not in place yet.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2015)

ash said:


> Lots of people travel in from places like Croydon and Thornton Heath to shop which probably impacts on the visual demographic. Culturally of course there are lots  of Portuguese and other 'white' non British groups but if I remember rightly from the last census White english was the biggest group.



The "State of the Borough report 2014" page 29 about Coldharbour Ward- which covers central Brixton is sobering reading:



> Coldharbour
> Coldharbour has a large population compared to other wards (17,200). It has a young age profi
> le,with a high proportion of children aged 0-15. It is the poorest ward in the borough. Many
> children in reception year are obese and there are many ambulance call outs for alcohol related ill
> ...



And page 15 on the whole population of Lambeth:



> Around 40% of Lambeths population is white with a UK background. White people make up 59% of the population. Around 40% of Lambeth residents are White British or Irish, in line with inner London (43%).



I guess that the extra percentage for white people is European no UK born.


----------



## ibilly99 (Jun 7, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Day 4 and the U75 verdict is in for pop Brixton. How will they deal with this news ..



I imagine the more you hate it the more they will feel they have got it just right if they ever bother to monitor these boards or have the time or the inclination to care from the grind of business of making money.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I am simply saying that:
> 
> Plan A may, or may not, have worked out. No one knows.
> 
> ...


The original grow proposal also offered a "substantial [but undisclosed] profit share with Lambeth", according to the proposal doc.

The revenue stream section of the proposal is a little vague. Charged events with corporate partnership at £5-25/ticket being the secondary (and only other) stream to letting business units.


----------



## ash (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The "State of the Borough report 2014" page 29 about Coldharbour Ward- which covers central Brixton is sobering reading:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True- I am on my phone so can't reference but Brixton also includes Ferndale and other Lambeth wards which as far as I remember have
 a lower number of African/-Caribbean people which affects the overall %, but I may be wrong?


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2015)

Manter said:


> - the random sneering about clapham and monocultures is unpleasant, boring and unfair. It undermines valid criticisms.


The fact that such comments can't be applied to the nearby Granville Market Space - which opened up around the same time - would suggest that such criticism are indeed valid - even more so given Lambeth's boasts about Pop being a community-focussed project.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I guess that the extra percentage for white people is European no UK born.


Why?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Why?



It does say 40% UK white. Then 59% white in total for whole of Lambeth.

Forgot the rest of the could also be from other countries in Commonwealth etc.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> It does say 40% UK white. Then 59% white in total for whole of Lambeth.
> 
> Forgot the rest of the could also be from other countries in Commonwealth etc.


Forgotten


----------



## CH1 (Jun 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> You might ask yourself why the original proposal got a lot of local support. Perhaps a lot of people want something that is radically different to the crap that a lot of us have had to put up with the last years.


I think people supported the original idea because it represented a partial "greening" of the very built up area round Brixton Station Road.

To digress slightly, back in 1994 there was an old redundant garage (filling station) at the end of Rushcroft Road (the bit now in the middle of Windrush Square). This backed onto a disused Orange Coach Station fronting Saltoun Road. 

That site was squatted by some people who turned it into an informal but extremely popular garden centre selling pot plants etc.
Naturally the council took eviction proceedings to repossess the land - but there was a major outcry, with a petition to council about it.

An example of a viable commercial (but unofficial) use right in the heart of Brixton. Unfortunately the neo-Stalinist architects won out over the anarchists and we have the partially dysfunctional plaza we now know and love.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The original grow proposal also offered a "substantial [but undisclosed] profit share with Lambeth", according to the proposal doc.
> 
> The revenue stream section of the proposal is a little vague. Charged events with corporate partnership at £5-25/ticket being the secondary (and only other) stream to letting business units.



Good point. Plan B is much more likely to make a profit, especially since the rents are so high for those not lucky enough to get the subsidised units.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 8, 2015)

n/a


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

CH1 said:


> An example of a viable commercial (but unofficial) use right in the heart of Brixton. Unfortunately the neo-Stalinist architects won out over the anarchists and we have the partially dysfunctional plaza we now know and love.


However nice it may or may not have been, when declaring viability of this "commercial use" have you accounted for the fact that the commercial business operators took for themselves exclusive use of the site from the community who owned it.

There is a good reason that plant nurseries have disappeared from central London. Because of the space they take up, they have become increasingly commercially unviable.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Good point. Plan B is much more likely to make a profit, especially since the rents are so high for those not lucky enough to get the subsidised units.


I suspect that the problem will turn out to be that, as the original Grow submission suggests, the gardening part of the scheme simply does not deliver any income (other than maybe through corporate sponsorship). As all of the proposals needed to be self sufficient, the gardening part therefore needed to be subsidised by the rental units. Which is fine, except that the space isn't all that big and the non commercial gardening part needed too much of the space, constricting the potential to generate the income required to subsidise it.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Since when are council-sponsored  "community" "green spaces" all about maximising profit over social benefits? That's a real Tory philosophy.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> However nice it may or may not have been, when declaring viability of this "commercial use" have you accounted for the fact that the commercial business operators took for themselves exclusive use of the site from the community who owned it.
> 
> There is a good reason that plant nurseries have disappeared from central London. Because of the space they take up, they have become increasingly commercially unviable.


Frankly I'd rather have a plant shop than an Ice Bar!


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I think people supported the original idea because it represented a partial "greening" of the very built up area round Brixton Station Road.


I'm not saying Buzz makes much of a difference, but we did support the original proposals. That support would not have been extended to the subsequent size-doubled 21st century business park that has materialised, so, yes, I feel cheated and angry.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Since when are council-sponsored  "community" "green spaces" all about maximising profit over social benefits? That's a real Tory philosophy.


Are you talking about a particular "council sponsored community green space" or just sticking random words together extracted from the various piece of documentation produced during a year long development process as the separate quotes suggest?

The original invitation for bids made it clear that the project would need to be able to create income streams to fund its own development and ongoing costs. Grow's proposal not only promised to do that but to deliver a substantial profit share to the council. No one forced them to make that commitment. 

EBS are a creative but none the less commercial landscaping business. Their business model appears, however, to rely heavily on winning corporate and public funding to execute their projects, rather than generating income.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Are you talking about a particular "council sponsored community green space" or just sticking random words together extracted from the various piece of documentation produced during a year long development process as the separate quotes suggest?


Did the council commission the 'community project'? Why, yes they did.
Was "public green space" the phrase used in the winning bid? Why, yes it was.

Their words.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Frankly I'd rather have a plant shop than an Ice Bar!


That's a perfectly valid personal preference. But I'm sure you agree has nothing to do with whether or not it was commercially viable, as you said.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Did the council commission the 'community project'? Why, yes they did.
> Was "public green space" the phrase used in the winning bid? Why, yes it was.
> 
> Their words.



Did the 'community project' fall apart? Why, yes it did! 

I wish it had not. In theory, it's preferable to what we have now.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Did the 'community project' fall apart? Why, yes it did!


Why did it "fall apart"? How did it "fall apart"? What do you actually know about this process?  And why was it accepted if it was supposedly flawed and unviable in the first place?

Why should the official narrative just be accepted without question?

You may be happy to just shrug off the change of direction but I feel cheated by its consultation-free transformation from public green space to a 'business park for the 21st century'. Those responsible should be held to account.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 8, 2015)

han said:


> That's terrible.
> The lack of public loos is a real problem, isn't it. Everywhere in London. Cos they don't make money. [emoji35]



Not just in London, either. My younger brother and sister live in a seaside town in the south-east that decided to save money by closing 8 of the 10 public loos. They ended up spending more cleaning up the piss and shit that started appearing everywhere, than they saved. Fortunately they were sensible enough to re-open those loos they hadn't sold off. 



> Well, the loos at Pop Brixton are open to everyone, and really nice, so everyone in the area should bear that in mind, next time they need a dump. [emoji6]


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Did the council commission the 'community project'? Why, yes they did.
> Was "public green space" the phrase used in the winning bid? Why, yes it was.
> 
> Their words.


Grow used many words in their 85 page scheme proposal presentation in April 2014. Like "enriching existing entrepreneurs" "helping new enterprise" "celebrate local business" "substantial profit share".

Three words they did not use together were "public green space".


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## leanderman (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Why did it "fall apart"? How did it "fall apart"? What do you actually know about this process?  And why was it accepted if it was supposedly flawed and unviable in the first place?
> 
> Why should the official narrative just be accepted without question?
> 
> You may be happy to just shrug off the change of direction but I feel cheated by its consultation-free transformation from public green space to a 'business park for the 21st century'. Those responsible should be held to account.



Good questions. I don't know the answers. Do you?

It would not surprise me at all that Lambeth could accept a flawed scheme - this is not to say it was flawed necessarily.

On the last point, the switch of plan was probably justified on the grounds:

:: Time was short.
:: Carl Turner might have taken action if the project had been put out to tender again.
:: The changed plan offered the prospect of making Lambeth money rather than losing it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> But you don't know that this vision would have worked. It might have. It might not.



Well quite.
Shame it wasn't given a chance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I doubt any decision is taken without doubt.



If it involves public funding it's usually taken after scrutiny, though.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

Has anyone even bothered to explore what this is all about?



> Pop Farm is the greening strategy and community gardening element of Pop Brixton. Our approach to creating a verdant, planted and productive garden amidst the containers and concrete of Brixton involves the following:
> 
> •Pop Farm will engage with the public as part of a longer term initiative to educate, inform and share food and plant growing knowledge in the community. Pop Farm will be used to inform and educate local school children.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Good questions. I don't know the answers. Do you?


No I don't, and that's why I'm pushing for answers rather than just accepting the official account and insisting that the original scheme wasn't viable while not actually knowing the facts of the matter.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Has anyone even bothered to explore what this is all about?


Have you? Do tell us more. All I can see is the vague PR blurb and no sight of a "garden and greenhouse area" planted by the (no doubt unpaid) "local community"


----------



## CH1 (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> That's a perfectly valid personal preference. But I'm sure you agree has nothing to do with whether or not it was commercially viable, as you said.


Actually that is a political question.

The Tate Gardens plant shop was commercially viable because it was using council land that had been left derelict for years. The plant nursery appropriated it for a socially useful and aesthetic purpose - without paying rent (of course the council refused accept rent). 

Surely many people thought the original Grow Brixton scheme was more along the lines of that - a temporary community project involving involving gardening skills and employing and/or training local young people?

We now have a mega Ice Bar (without the ice) going on for 5 years at mainly commercial rents which concessionaires may be able to afford if they target the more affluent people living in Brixton.

Pop Brixton is forced by its financial model to attract the more affluent - whereas it was originally presented as a social enterprise.

That is why people are unhappy I think.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> No I don't, and that's why I'm pushing for answers rather than just accepting the official account and insisting that the original scheme wasn't viable while not actually knowing the facts of the matter.



I am not insisting the original scheme was unviable.

I am saying it might have been unviable and, as it turned out, it fell apart in mysterious circumstances.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Has anyone even bothered to explore what this is all about?


What is it all about?
Sounds like one of those old section 106 agreements where those building a new block of flats provide money for double glazing in a council estate 5 miles away.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Have you? Do tell us more. Al I can see is the vague PR blurb and no sight of a "garden and greenhouse area" planted by the (no doubt unpaid) "local community"


No I haven't. But then I'm not the one rewriting the original Grow presentation to try to prove that they have not delivered "promised public green space" a week after opening less than half the units.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I am not insisting the original scheme was unviable.
> 
> I am saying it might have been unviable and, as it turned out, it fell apart in mysterious circumstances.


Some people have certainly been suggesting that it was. I wonder what they were basing that opinion on? Perhaps they could reveal their insider sources now.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> No I haven't. But then I'm not the one rewriting the original Grow presentation to try to prove that they have not delivered "promised public green space" a week after opening less than half the units.


Where do you think that this green space might go then? I don't see an awful lot of space available, what with all the trendy bars, eateries and entrepreneurial NZ wine importers already on site.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Actually that is a political question.
> 
> The Tate Gardens plant shop was commercially viable because it was using council land that had been left derelict for years. The plant nursery appropriated it for a socially useful and aesthetic purpose - without paying rent (of course the council refused accept rent).
> 
> ...


That's pretty much nailed it.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Has anyone even bothered to explore what this is all about?



A Service Level Agreement is in place coming from the original winning bid. It means that certain elements of the application need to remain in place.

Sadly the Service Level Agreement doesn't work both ways. As we have seen, commercial ideas not contained in the original application can be added without any scrutiny.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Where do you think that this green space might go then? I don't see an awful lot of space available, what with all the trendy bars, eateries and entrepreneurial NZ wine importers already on site.


Which "promised green public space"? Do you mean the enterprise centre incorporating performance space, green space, office space, commercial space, covered eating area, etc..

The picture on page 11 of the Grow presentation shows most of the greenery on the roofs of the containers. Do you know this will not be happening?

The huge polytunnel is shown largely set out with benches and tables and a cafe with peripheral planting (as has been delivered without the cafe).


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> A Service Level Agreement is in place coming from the original winning bid. It means that certain elements of the application need to remain in place.
> 
> Sadly the Service Level Agreement doesn't work both ways. As we have seen, commercial ideas not contained in the original application can be added without any scrutiny.


So extra units have been provided and the council is relocating social start ups from the Town Hall hub (which is closing) to the Pop site. I can't get over exited about that. What am I missing?


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Which "promised green public space"?


That was in a statement published on the winning bid, and there's still plenty of archived blather about creating "a much needed green oasis in central Brixton" and a "green space."  The plans also include a large "public space." Are you really arguing that there was never any intention in the original plans to include a green public space?


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

It's worth taking a look back at how this thread started and how the original vision has completely changed.







http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...y-grow-brixton-popes-road-development.322188/


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Actually that is a political question.
> 
> The Tate Gardens plant shop was commercially viable because it was using council land that had been left derelict for years. The plant nursery appropriated it for a socially useful and aesthetic purpose - without paying rent (of course the council refused accept rent).
> 
> ...



I only skipped through the proposal when it first came out, before making my choice. I though it was clear that it was positioning itself as a profit making commercial venture with all sorts of community benefits attached, e.g. apprenticeships during the build, etc.. I felt like many proposals that it was trying to be everything to everybody but that I generally liked it and even if it could be delivered in part that would be good for the area. I accept that the planting part of it has been scaled back but I don't think it is at all clear how far it had been scaled back.

A "substantial profit share for Lambeth Council" was a clearly stated part of the proposal.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I only skipped through the proposal when it first came out, before making my choice. I though it was clear that it was positioning itself as a profit making commercial venture with all sorts of community benefits attached, e.g. apprenticeships during the build, etc.. I felt like many proposals that it was trying to be everything to everybody but that I generally liked it and even if it could be delivered in part that would be good for the area. I accept that the planting part of it has been scaled back but I don't think it is at all clear how far it had been scaled back.
> 
> A "substantial profit share for Lambeth Council" was a clearly stated part of the proposal.


Did you not go to the pop-up event or watch the video?



"...the winning Grow: Brixton bid aims to, “bring together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. "

"The aim is to build a self-sufficient community, organised and run by designers, builders and gardeners and managed through the local residents and small businesses."

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/06/...nd-talks-about-its-plans-in-a-charming-video/


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> That was in a statement published on the winning bid, and there's still plenty of archived blather about creating "a much needed green oasis in central Brixton" and a "green space."  The plans also include a large "public space." Are you really arguing that there was never any intention in the original plans to include a green public space?


How jolly inconvenient that it does not appear to have been in any of the actual proposal documents. Your phrase certainly wasn't in the original Grow proposal presentation which is still downloadable from that site.

In 85 pages the word public is used only twice. Once in reference to  the provision of "covered public space". Two of these were proposed and two have been provided. The eating poly tunnel (as originally proposed) and the performance area (as originally proposed).

The other is in reference to the fact that no public funding is required. "We are very experienced in partnering with corporate organisations for sponsorship.."


----------



## CH1 (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I only skipped through the proposal when it first came out, before making my choice. I though it was clear that it was positioning itself as a profit making commercial venture with all sorts of community benefits attached, e.g. apprenticeships during the build, etc.. I felt like many proposals that it was trying to be everything to everybody but that I generally liked it and even if it could be delivered in part that would be good for the area. I accept that the planting part of it has been scaled back but I don't think it is at all clear how far it had been scaled back.
> 
> A "substantial profit share for Lambeth Council" was a clearly stated part of the proposal.


Maybe an example of people taking what they want (meaning seeing what they want in) a document then.

Do you see any flexibility in the duration of Pop Brixton then? It has already changed from 2 years to 5 years. If it proves a gold-mine could they extend it to 10? 

I guess one of the factors would be if Lambeth and Network Rail ever get on with Brixton Central.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Did you not go to the pop-up event or watch the video?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. I saw the video. 

I get the impression that the Grow proposal presentation is new to you?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Maybe an example of people taking what they want (meaning seeing what they want in) a document then.
> 
> Do you see any flexibility in the duration of Pop Brixton then? It has already changed from 2 years to 5 years. If it proves a gold-mine could they extend it to 10?
> 
> I guess one of the factors would be if Lambeth and Network Rail ever get on with Brixton Central.


Yes. I agree to some extent. Looking back at it the original proposal had lots of ideas but very little detail. I don't think what we have been given is a million miles away from what was proposed. When it is finished, that is.

(ETA. Hardly surprising re lack of detail as bidders only had one month to find partners, develop ideas and submit.)

Re: carrying on, if it keeps busy I don't see why it would not be allowed to continue until plans for that area are finalised and ready to progress. Goodness knows when or what that will be!


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I get the impression that the Grow proposal presentation is new to you?


It's you that seems to have completely forgotten that the proposals clearly stated that the development would, "offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy."


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 8, 2015)

And in other news: something positive happened.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> And in other news: something positive happened.


Ah, the passive 'just accept what you're given' and 'don't question authority' approach. No thanks. I like councils to be held to account when they fail to deliver on their promises, or when they change things to suit them without consulting the community they're supposed to represent.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> It's you that seems to have completely forgotten that the proposals clearly stated that the development would, "offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy."


It seems that you are getting very confused and starting to quote yourself, rather than the original 85 page Grow proposal presentation to which I have been referring. Summarising the whole scheme as a public green space is simply fantasy. Tens of shipping containers housing small businesses and retail provision have always been at the heart of the project.

The design statement in their recent planning application remains unchanged from the June 2014 application with most of the planting on roof gardens. The big polytunnel is raised up but other than that looks remarkably similar, and even in the original proposal was largely a covered public seating space. Most of the planting was originally proposed for roof gardens, and still is. Obviously none of the planting has happened yet. The site is less than half open.

I recall no objection to the amount of planting proposed in the June 2014 Grow planning application. In fact it was greeted with enthusiasm. The new application suggests it will be extremely similar.

So it's all very well to hold people to account. But you seem intent on holding them to account for having not finished building something which you only imagined they had proposed.

If they don't introduce the roof gardens and other planting once the work is finished I'll be genuinely disappointed. But so far they appear to have delivered on the public space originally proposed.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Summarising the whole scheme as a public green space is simply fantasy.


Good job I never made such a claim then, but I've no time for your context-stripping misrepresentations today. 

I'm sure most people can make up their own minds as to whether they think the current project bears much of a relationship to the community/green focus and ethos of the original proposals.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Ah, the passive 'just accept what you're given' and 'don't question authority' approach. No thanks. I like councils to be held to account when they fail to deliver on their promises, or when they change things to suit them without consulting the community they're supposed to represent.



Wow. You created quite a story out of one line which bears no resemblance to to its original meaning. Now where have I seen that before


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Good job I never made such a claim then, but I've no time for your context-stripping misrepresentations today.
> 
> I'm sure most people can make up their own minds as to whether they think the current project bears much of a relationship to the community/green focus and ethos of the original proposals.


I have provided documented background context to your fantastical interpretation and piecemeal quoting of the original proposal and now I'm the context stripper  .


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I have provided documented background context to your fantastical interpretation and piecemeal quoting of the original proposal and now I'm the context stripper  .


Sigh. I've quoted directly from the winning bid, as documented on the Future Brixton website, and included links.


> The grow:brixton team consists of award-winning Carl Turner Architects, The Edible Bus Stop – guerilla gardeners and landscape experts – Canteen – socially minded food organisation – and Engineers Structure Workshop, all based in Lambeth.
> 
> They propose ‘grow:brixton’, a place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. Grow:brixton gives young people of Brixton the chance to acquire new skills in building, gardening or music, offering apprenticeships and opportunities.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Sigh. I've quoted directly from the winning bid, as documented on the Future Brixton website, and included links.


I.e. Not from the actual Grow proposal. And not from either the Grow 2014 or Pop 2015 planning applications.

You've produced a summary of a summary.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I.e. Not from the actual Grow proposal. And not from either the Grow 2014 or Pop 2015 planning applications.
> 
> You've produced a summary of a summary.


We're talking about what the community expectations of the project were and how it was presented. It would seem that I'm nowhere near alone in thinking that what we got is some distance from what people thought they were getting.

If you think a project that has nearly doubled in size, all but lost its central green focus and is now being declared a "business park for the 21st century" is the same as what was originally promised, I'm going to disagree with you.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

It's closed at the moment.


----------



## deadringer (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> It's you that seems to have completely forgotten that the proposals clearly stated that the development would, "offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy."



The only thing missing is the green bit. It's presently a 'public space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy'

Given that in the days before opening it was reported that it looked like a building site and unlikely to open on time, and has been open barely a week, and is also not finished, could it be conceivable that the green bits will be added?


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The only thing missing is the green bit. It's presently a 'public space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy'
> 
> Given that in the days before opening it was reported that it looked like a building site and unlikely to open on time, and has been open barely a week, and is also not finished, could it be conceivable that the green bits will be added?


If you look at the original plans, there doesn't appear to be the space to accommodate the bountiful green bits now.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

The decidedly non-local Hook are opening up a branch of their upmarket fish and chips in Pop. They have a restaurant in Brussels and a business in Camden. 


> Classic Panko Crusted Cod with Seaweed Salted Chips & Homemade Tartar £10
> 
> Lemon & Fennel Panko Hake with Seaweed Salted Chips & Lemon & Basil Sauce £10
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Most definitely closed. 

The not-exactly local RIBA 'summer show of inspiring architecture and design' opens on Thursday.

Here's how they describe the place: 





> Pop Brixton will become a new community campus for start-ups, small businesses, local entrepreneurs and community organizations in the heart of the town centre.
> http://www.architecture.com/WhatsOn/June2015/ArchitectureOpen.aspx


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> We're talking about what the community expectations of the project were and how it was presented. It would seem that I'm nowhere near alone in thinking that what we got is some distance from what people thought they were getting.



Well I don't pretend to be a spokesperson for the community on the matter of their amalgamated expectations. I am comfortable, however, with the concept of judging whether a project is broadly in line with its original proposal by comparing what they are still in the process of delivering against the original proposal (which we voted on) and subsequent planning applications (which we were invited to comment on).

If people's expectations were so wide of the mark at the time, one had to wonder why. You referred to it at the time of the application as "a bit of a vague hippy ideal with convincing details". Yet that very same Grow proposal you were reporting on referred to "enriching existing entrepreneurs" "helping new enterprise" "celebrating local business" "substantial profit share". Not in the slightest bit hippy. In fact, quite blatantly commercial.

If folk did not read those documents for themselves, or only read summaries about them, or even summaries of summaries, and thought they were getting something else, that's a real shame. But the information was all there.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> If you look at the original plans, there doesn't appear to be the space to accommodate the bountiful green bits now.


But most of the greenery in the original proposal is shown on the container roofs?
The big poly tunnel is still there, just elevated. What do you think is missing?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> The decidedly non-local Hook are opening up a branch of their upmarket fish and chips in Pop. They have a restaurant in Brussels and a business in Camden.



When it comes to fish and chips, exceptions have to be made.


----------



## Manter (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Has anyone even bothered to explore what this is all about?


They are still talking about pop farm onsite- the drawing activity my tiny terminator was so enthusiastic about was to draw a recipe that could be made with ingredients grown on the pop farm. Though slightly mysterious what they are


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 8, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The only thing missing is the green bit. It's presently a 'public space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy'



Albeit it's a "public space" only insofar as any security policies allow it to be "public". Public space used to mean something a lot different - everything from common land to publicly-owned enterprises like schools. Now it also appears to include conditionally-"public" spaces.



> Given that in the days before opening it was reported that it looked like a building site and unlikely to open on time, and has been open barely a week, and is also not finished, could it be conceivable that the green bits will be added?



Conceivable, perhaps.Probable, though?


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> But most of the greenery in the original proposal is shown on the container roofs?
> The big poly tunnel is still there, just elevated. What do you think is missing?


It's not even what's missing but what's been added too. The site is substantially bigger than the original drawings (33 units to 55+). It looks different. It talks a more business/entrepreneur focused language. And no one was bandying around phrases like "a business park for the 21st century" at the start.

I suggest that many people were sold on the 'greenness' of it all. It was called Grow Brixton and every drawing showed a super-green community-powered site covered in plants and crops with a horticulture .

Expecting everyone to have the time and inclination to trawl through hefty documents released later is not reasonable: the original proposals should have adequately conveyed the ethos of the project. I feel like we've been thoroughly shortchanged.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> When it comes to fish and chips, exceptions have to be made.


Yeah. Fuck the plans and the promises when there's Lime, Mint & Wasabi Tempura of Seabream with Seaweed Salted Chips & Basil Chilli Sauce to be had.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

I've been trying to get my head around why you have turned so viciously against this since Edible Bus Stop walked away. It's not changed all that much. And even if you believe that it has, it's not like it wasn't immediately obvious that the original concept was going to appeal hugely to young (to borrow your phrase) Nu Brixton types.



boohoo said:


> Looks great - should be another point of interest for Brixton as a tourist destination. All the people who have moved into the area will love it!
> (I'm sounding bitter today )



But then an ex Urb reminded me that you said this when it all began:



editor said:


> Their bid was all about local sustainability and involvement, but if tourists want to come along and gawk, I'm sure that will be fine too.
> 
> *If a recent pub conversation is anything to go by, I might be getting involved with this.*



You were blind to all the "substantial profit share with Lambeth" and "enriching entrepreneurs" guff in the winning proposal when you thought you were "in". But once your EBS mates were sidelined, you were sidelined. 

Are you certain that your true objection is not largely personal?


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> You were blind to all the "substantial profit share with Lambeth" and "enriching entrepreneurs" guff in the winning proposal when you thought you were "in". But once your EBS mates were sidelined, you were sidelined. Are you certain that your true objection is not largely personal?


Just when I thought you couldn't get any more devious or scrape the barrel any deeper, here you are dishonestly suggesting that my entire argument can be safely dismissed because EBS are supposedly "my mates."

That claim has no foundation in reality. They are not "my mates." I have never asked to be involved with them in any way at all or ever attended any meetings with them.

You should be fucking ashamed of yourself for posting up such deceitful shit.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Just when I thought you couldn't get any more devious or scrape the barrel any deeper, here you are dishonestly suggesting that my entire argument can be safely dismissed because EBS are supposedly "my mates."
> 
> That claim has no foundation in reality. They are not "my mates." I have never asked to be involved with them in any way at all.
> 
> You should be fucking ashamed of yourself for posting up such deceitful shit.


I had a great teacher .

Should we read anything into the fact that the only part of my post you disagreed with is that I referred to EBS as your mates?


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Yeah. Fuck the plans and the promises when there's Lime, Mint & Wasabi Tempura of Seabream with Seaweed Salted Chips & Basil Chilli Sauce to be had.



I guess if you were on a freebie you'd be in like flynn. Let them be, or start up your  own enterprise. Go on, give it a go.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:
			
		

> The site is substantially bigger than the original drawings






			
				editor said:
			
		

> It looks different.






			
				editor said:
			
		

> no one was bandying around phrases like "a business park for the 21st century" at the start.



I can understand, if not agree with, the "it's less community based", but the above are not really strong evidence of why it's a failure are they?


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Should we read anything into the fact that the only part of my post you disagreed with is that I referred to EBS as your mates?


If we think we can just carry on with these disruptive, dishonest and utterly groundless personal attacks, we might find ourselves being warned and banned, in accordance with the rules.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I can understand, if not agree with, the "it's less community based", but the above are not really strong evidence of why it's a failure are they?


Who said it was a failure?


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I guess if you were on a freebie you'd be in like flynn.


No, I really wouldn't, you know.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> If folk did not read those documents for themselves, or only read summaries about them, or even summaries of summaries, and thought they were getting something else, that's a real shame. But the information was all there.



As the editor has done looked back at the Future Brixton summary of what was promised.

How its shaping up seems to me to be moving away from the impression given in the Future Brixton summary.

So what your comment suggests is that the Future Brixton website mislead people. That people should read what the Council say with a more cynical eye.

That the Council did not do its job properly.That is it did not explain in a summary how the project would work in reality. The Council has plenty of officers whose job it is to write this stuff for Future Brixton. What you are implying is that they knowingly put a positive spin on this thinking that gullible residents would fall for it.

Most people have not got the time to read long pdfs. They might keep up on some matters but there is to much going on to keep track of everything in detail. So rely on summary in Future Brixton. I am on the Future Brixton email list. Regularly get updates. I assume most people on the email list read it to keep up to date with what is going on with meanwhile uses and consultations. There is so much of one cannot read all the detail.

So Future Brixton website is a propaganda organ of the Council.

Are we agreed on that?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As the editor has done looked back at the Future Brixton summary of what was promised.
> 
> How its shaping up seems to me to be moving away from the impression given in the Future Brixton summary.
> 
> ...


Not really. People voted on the proposals. Not the Future Brixton summary you linked to which was written 8 months afterwards.


ETA obviously everything one reads needs to be read with caution as it is rarely obvious what vested interests are involved.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Most people have not got the time to read long pdfs. So rely on summary in Future Brixton.



I would go further and say most people do not get Future Brixton updates, at best they might get the pr blurb in Lambeth Living once decisions are taken
in fact most people I know had no idea that this project was happening til  they saw the shipping containers, it's to Brixton Buzz's and Urbans credit that they try to keep
people informed of whats going on in Lambeth, unfortunately there does some to be an element who like to make this a personal matter, if the council said they were bringing
in private money to improve sports facilities in Brockwell Park and it turned into a golf course they probably would defend it as long as they could get a nice g and t and steak sarnie in the clubhouse


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Who said it was a failure?



Not in so many words but essentially you've said it has failed the community. Now wouldn't tell you you are wrong to say that, just that I don't agree. The arguments against Pop Brixton so far, to my mind, are unconvincing


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Not really. People voted on the proposals. Not the Future Brixton summary you linked to which was written 8 months afterwards.
> 
> 
> ETA obviously everything one reads needs to be read with caution as it is rarely obvious what vested interests are involved.



I did try to use one of the more up to date pages of FB. The summary follows what people voted on and what they assumed would happen. Gives the impression its just a name change but what people naively , in your view, voted on would stay the same. 

So its misleading. 

What do you think the vested interests involved are in this case? When Council put out this stuff?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 8, 2015)

Pop might end in disaster.

The Grow scheme, as well as being greener, might have been better.

Who knows?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 8, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> if the council said they were bringing
> in private money to improve sports facilities in Brockwell Park and it turned into a golf course they probably would defend it as long as they could get a nice g and t and steak sarnie in the clubhouse



Council officers look at this site. Dont give them ideas.

I can see it now. Great new idea to provide jobs and training. Serving the well off as caddies and bar staff. A great new way to bring together social value and business. As our Cabinet member for jobs and growth Cllr Jack would say:



> This is a fantastic example where the public, private and community sectors have come together to create something that will allow local businesses to flourish and provide maximum benefit to Brixton.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 8, 2015)

editor said:


> If we think we can just carry on with these disruptive, dishonest and utterly groundless personal attacks, we might find ourselves being warned and banned, in accordance with the rules.


That would be about the clearest answer to my question that you could possibly give. But if I step into your shoes for a moment, I can see that it is probably also your safest option. So no hard feelings.

***waves to the tricoteuse***


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 8, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Pop might end in disaster.



This kind?

The way it looks now reminded me of this scene from Starship Troopers.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 8, 2015)

Saw this on my FB

*Contested Space*
11 June 19:00 - 20:30
Organized by: Carl Turner Architects

POP Brixton
53 Brixton Station Road
SW9 8PQ

How can we make sure that we are improving a community through our work?

Join Adam Brown (Landolt + Brown) and Carl Turner (Carl Turner Architects)  for a hour debate followed by 20 minutes Q&A where they try to address the topic of gentrification, and present selected projects in the areas of Brixton, Peckham and Tottenham.

Speakers:

Carl Turner, Carl Turner Architects

Adam Brow, Landolt + Brown

Talk begins at 7:30. The talk will be held in the polytunnel


----------



## deadringer (Jun 8, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Albeit it's a "public space" only insofar as any security policies allow it to be "public". Public space used to mean something a lot different - everything from common land to publicly-owned enterprises like schools. Now it also appears to include conditionally-"public" spaces.
> 
> 
> 
> Conceivable, perhaps.Probable, though?



I think the 'security' aspect is being massively overplayed with some ridiculously wild claims being made. Sadly this is more and more prevalent. They have them late night in some McDonalds FFS! Even in my small town they are on the doors of most pubs. I dare say it's specified in the licensing that bouncers must be provided at Pop.


On the greenery I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, for now. I like to keep an open mind and look for the positives, even if a place is not really my cup of tea.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Saw this on my FB
> 
> *Contested Space*
> 11 June 19:00 - 20:30
> ...


Sorry to have to miss this - if only for the polytunnel.
The Brixton Society AGM is on Thursday and I cannot really not attend that.

Regarding the Contested Space debate, I feel that this Pop Brixton project is not gentrification - more like an environmentally impoverished upgate of the Vauxhall Gardens.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Not in so many words but essentially you've said it has failed the community. Now wouldn't tell you you are wrong to say that, just that I don't agree. The arguments against Pop Brixton so far, to my mind, are unconvincing


I haven't said that either, but no matter.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> That would be about the clearest answer to my question that you could possibly give. But if I step into your shoes for a moment, I can see that it is probably also your safest option. So no hard feelings.


So you're just going to carry on with your series of disruptive, groundless, deceitful and derogatory slurs?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> So you're just going to carry on with your series of disruptive, groundless, deceitful and derogatory slurs?


Not tonight. I haven't got your legendary late night stamina. Tomorrow is another day.
Goodnight.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Not tonight. I haven't got your legendary late night stamina. Tomorrow is another day.
> Goodnight.


Just talk about Pop Brixton please.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Yeah. Fuck the plans and the promises when there's Lime, Mint & Wasabi Tempura of Seabream with Seaweed Salted Chips & Basil Chilli Sauce to be had.


That's a fucking disgrace. How do they think mint and wasabi go together?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I think the 'security' aspect is being massively overplayed with some ridiculously wild claims being made. Sadly this is more and more prevalent. They have them late night in some McDonalds FFS! Even in my small town they are on the doors of most pubs. I dare say it's specified in the licensing that bouncers must be provided at Pop.



Thing is, although  think it's shit, I'm aware that private businesses often have requirements in their insurance that necessitate "door staff" or uniformed guards, but when it comes to space that's said to be "public"...well, they're hardly like parkies or comedy cops, are they? They're very obviously not there for public safety or convenience, but to protect that supposedly-public space from "the wrong sort".   



> On the greenery I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, for now. I like to keep an open mind and look for the positives, even if a place is not really my cup of tea.



Hippy.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

So what do people think of the "community giveback" scheme at Pop where tenants commit to a whole 60 mins of skill sharing every week? It doesn't actually have to be the real community, mind, as they could share their talents/G&Ts with the unit next to them.


> Pop Brixton is a place that has came to life through the talents of many local people. Tenants have committed an hour a week to a time-bank for community giveback, which will involve skill sharing with other tenants and the local community, including through a purpose built training space


Straight question. Exactly how does an award winning entrepreneur with a multi-million-pound property empire "redefine the way young people live, work and play" and what would be the point of doing that?


> The Collective is investing in and delivering Pop Brixton in partnership with CTA, to further it's support for entrepreneurship and creativity, and bring to life a one of a kind, community-led initiative.
> 
> The Collective was founded in 2010 by award winning entrepreneur Reza Merchant, and is formed by a group of Millennials on a mission to redefine the way young people live, work and play


Reza's skill as a millionaire property developer is cramming people into tiny, tiny spaces for maximum trouser-filling cash return:


> The Collective concept is pretty simple. The company takes on and refurbishes rundown buildings in London to create new, high-spec interiors packed full of as many compact living spaces as the property will allow. And compact is the word. Some of the studio flats are less than 120 sq ft – the size of a standard bedroom – with an entire living quarters squeezed in.


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 9, 2015)

That's quite a Daily Mail smorgasbord of conjecture and inference.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> That's quite a Daily Mail smorgasbord of conjecture and inference.


It's all material either published on the Pop Brixton website or directly lined from the Pop Brixton site. The words describing the Collective are their own.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 9, 2015)

A quick Google shows that the final paragraph is from a third party article explaining his concept which is to provide serviced accommodation from £500-1,000pcm in three prime central London areas. Camden, Kings X, Hyde Park. In Kings X a 1 bed flat will normally set you back £1,500-2,000pcm.

The article continues...



> Some of the studio flats are less than 120 sq ft – the size of a standard bedroom – with an entire living quarters squeezed in. But clever design, including floating beds and meticulously thought-out storage options, means that the small spaces do work – especially for Merchant’s target market of young professionals on modest salaries. The properties are clean, well designed and, most importantly, in an enviable London location within a tight budget.
> 
> The Camden Collective is currently home to Tim Lowe, the 26-year-old surveyor travelling around London for four months to discover what options there are on a budget of £500 a month all in (see Estates Gazette 19 July p46) as part of EG’s Lowe Cost Living series. This is where rents at The Collective start. They go up to around £800-£1,000 a month for bigger rooms and in some of the newer properties where there are more amenities.
> 
> The rent figure also includes a weekly linen change, room clean and, again in the newer properties, access to facilities including spas and private dining room hire.



Not everyone's cup of tea but for a lot of people, location is more important than the size of the accommodation.

I don't think it helps anyone to quote quite so selectively.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 9, 2015)

And if you want to think positively for a moment, the concept means less young professionals needing to fight over properties in Brixton because they can't afford to be central.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> A quick Google shows that the final paragraph is from a third party article explaining his concept which is to provide serviced accommodation from £500-1,000pcm in three prime central London areas. Camden, Kings X, Hyde Park. In Kings X a 1 bed flat will set you back £1,400-2,000pcm.
> 
> The article continues...
> 
> ...


He's made his millions squeezing worker bees into hives. People don't want to live in ridiculously tiny little bedroom sized houses, but they have to... because of property developers like him.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> And if you want to think positively for a moment, the concept means less young professionals needing to fight over properties in Brixton because they can't afford to be central.


That doesn't really make any kind of sense.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> That doesn't really make any kind of sense.


Why?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Why?


Because Brixton has already become a honeypot for those young professionals, so it makes no difference at all what goes on elsewhere - a fact confirmed by the above average soaring house prices and rents here.

Still, you're sitting pretty if you're owning and renting out property yourself. There's ££££ to be made and people like Mr Bedroom-Sized House Maker is rubbing his hands with glee!


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Because Brixton has already become a honeypot for those young professionals, so it makes no difference at all what goes on elsewhere - a fact confirmed by the above average soaring house prices and rents here.
> 
> Still, you're sitting pretty if you're owning and renting out property yourself. There's ££££ to be made and people like Mr Bedroom-Sized House Maker is rubbing his hands with glee!



Your posts are like listening to a broken record. As though Brixton is isolated from the rest of London!
One other thing: who are the "community" that you name drop into every sentence?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> One other thing: who are the "community" that you name drop into every sentence?


Maybe you should be asking Pop Brixton that as they're rather keener on the word than me. They are, after all, a community campus created by the local community serving community organisations providing a significant social impact for the local community and delivering local benefits to the community.

They use the word 19 times on this one page alone, a feat not even matched by me.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 9, 2015)

I think he asked you.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think he asked you.



Indeed I did. But as usual all I got was the typical deflected comment. Boo.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think he asked you.


I don't drop the word "community" into "every sentence" so the question is a very silly one. But thanks for shoving your fat stirring oar in as usual.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Indeed I did. But as usual all I got was the typical deflected comment. Boo.


Unless you give me some specific examples I am unable to attend to your wildly exaggerated question.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't drop the word "community" into "every sentence" so the question is a very silly one. But thanks for shoving your fat stirring oar in as usual.



Why don't you answer the question for once? You're quick to stereotype others but you never come up with that finer piece of detail. Who are the "community"? (I readily agree that is an overused word, however you are keen to drop it when discussing the merits of Pop Brixton).

Who are the "community" that Pop Brixton doesn't serve, in your humble estimation? Be precise.


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## ddraig (Jun 9, 2015)

why do you think you are owed answers and can demand them like this?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Why don't you answer the question for once? You're quick to stereotype others but you never come up with that finer piece of detail. Who are the "community"? (I readily agree that is an overused word, however you are keen to drop it when discussing the merits of Pop Brixton).
> 
> Who are the "community" that Pop Brixton doesn't serve, in your humble estimation? Be precise.


I'd say it's out of the financial reach of quite a few of the people on my estate, some of whom I know are really struggling to make ends meet. Many have lived here for decades and they feel that they are being priced out.

I live next door to a soup kitchen, so I don't imagine many of their regulars will be splashing out for a £12 Thai Green Tempura of Seabream with Seaweed Salted Chips & Basil & Chilli Sauce any time soon or enjoying some fine imported wine..

And amongst all the kerchinging excitement of nu-Brixton, it's easy to overlook the fact that the Coldharbour Ward is one of the most deprived in London. 





> The latest deprivation data is from 2010, which ranks Lambeth as the 8th most deprived borough in London and 14th most deprived in England. Those living in the most deprived areas are spread throughout the borough but are particularly concentrated in Coldharbour ward.
> http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/ec-lambeth-council-state-of-the-borough-2014_0.pdf


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> I'd say it's out of the financial reach of quite a few of the people on my estate, some of whom I know are really struggling to make ends meet. Many have lived here for decades and they feel that they are being priced out.
> 
> I live next door to a soup kitchen, so I don't imagine many of their regulars will be splashing out for a £12 Thai Green Tempura of Seabream with Seaweed Salted Chips & Basil & Chilli Sauce any time soon or enjoying some fine imported wine..
> 
> And amongst all the kerchinging excitement of nu-Brixton, it's easy to overlook the fact that the Coldharbour Ward is one of the most deprived in London.



Thanks, appreciated.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

Roll up roll up....the three ring editor baiting circus is back in town....


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## shifting gears (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Your posts are like listening to a broken record. As though Brixton is isolated from the rest of London!
> One other thing: who are the "community" that you name drop into every sentence?



People like me - on a low income, lived in the area 12 years, can no longer afford to live within a mile of the area I love, respected, where I made the effort to engage with people from the area, always sought to use the market and local traders where possible, drank here, partied here etc etc.

But we don't matter.

Now why don't you smug twats fuck right off.


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> People like me - on a low income, lived in the area 12 years, can no longer afford to live within a mile of the area I love, respected, where I made the effort to engage with people from the area, always sought to use the market and local traders where possible, drank here, partied here etc etc.
> 
> But we don't matter.
> 
> Now why don't you smug twats fuck right off.



Same to you mate. My family lived in the area since the 1950's and we had fuck all.


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## ddraig (Jun 9, 2015)

where did your empathy go then?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Same to you mate. My family lived in the area since the 1950's and we had fuck all.



What yer got now?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> where did your empathy go then?



Spent it all on a cunt licence...


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> where did your empathy go then?



You do me wrong. If only I had the magic wand to wave - and yet, here we go again, another term of these tory twats, fuck me it's grim, and that is without Lambeth Labour.


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> What yer got now?



Below London average salary, no pension to speak of - how about you?


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Below London average salary, no pension to speak of - how about you?


You don't have to answer, but if you're fortunate enough to own your home that can make a _huge_ difference. If you've got safe, secure accommodation then I can see how you/someone may view the gentrification process through entirely different lens to someone who is desperately trying to find a way to stay in the community they love and are part of.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Below London average salary, no pension to speak of - how about you?



What I need. Thanks.


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## ddraig (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> You do me wrong. If only I had the magic wand to wave - and yet, here we go again, another term of these tory twats, fuck me it's grim, and that is without Lambeth Labour.


you may think it is inevitable and a 'lost cause' and 'progression' but there's still no need to piss all over the concerns and fears of others


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## leanderman (Jun 9, 2015)

Anyway, more interloping outsiders bring their fish and chips to Brixton:

@loveiseveryone: Hot Wok Acre Lane to become 'Brixton's Rock' Fish & Chip from people behind @BrockleysRock


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Your posts are like listening to a broken record. As though Brixton is isolated from the rest of London!
> One other thing: who are the "community" that you name drop into every sentence?



I know what "the community" means to *me*. It means people who live here and contribute to Brixton, and it's not *a* community, it's a spread of different communities that intersect with regard to their living in, and contributing to, Brixton, so it even includes mardy-arses like you.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think he asked you.



You, think?
I doubt it.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> why do you think you are owed answers and can demand them like this?



Because he's "pwopah Bwixton", apparently.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

Pop Brixton 2016


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Roll up roll up....the three ring editor baiting circus is back in town....



And it's as crap as ever, with the eejits poking the animals with sticks.


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you may think it is inevitable and a 'lost cause' and 'progression' but there's still no need to piss all over the concerns and fears of others



I don't think I said that. I have kids and I have no idea how or when they are going to move out, let alone stay in the area.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> People like me - on a low income, lived in the area 12 years, can no longer afford to live within a mile of the area I love, respected, where I made the effort to engage with people from the area, always sought to use the market and local traders where possible, drank here, partied here etc etc.
> 
> But we don't matter.
> 
> Now why don't you smug twats fuck right off.



I still, after 20 years, find myself embarrassed and ashamed of my luck.
My luck is that I'm disabled, and am progressively more disabled, and so have been entitled to social housing for that long. All things being equal, if I weren't disabled, I'd probably be living in some Medway or SE Kent craphole like my siblings and maternal cousins.  All because some culturally-barren people with more money than sense would have priced me out.


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I know what "the community" means to *me*. It means people who live here and contribute to Brixton, and it's not *a* community, it's a spread of different communities that intersect with regard to their living in, and contributing to, Brixton, so it even includes mardy-arses like you.



That makes sense.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Anyway, more interloping outsiders bring their fish and chips to Brixton:
> 
> @loveiseveryone: Hot Wok Acre Lane to become 'Brixton's Rock' Fish & Chip from people behind @BrockleysRock


They look fairly normal and affordable, which makes a pleasant change.


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## deadringer (Jun 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I still, after 20 years, find myself embarrassed and ashamed of my luck.
> My luck is that I'm disabled, and am progressively more disabled, and so have been entitled to social housing for that long. All things being equal, if I weren't disabled, I'd probably be living in some Medway or SE Kent craphole like my siblings and maternal cousins.  All because some culturally-barren people with more money than sense would have priced me out.




The 'culturally barren' people have more than likely been priced out of the areas they grew up in, know, and love. It's one horrible game of musical chairs. But hating these people and where they go because they quite like a different kind of fish and chips that cost an affordable £12 for them, rather than a basic fish and chips costing £7 that 'the poor' can maybe afford is ridiculous. 

It seems that if certain new ventures do not meet all the narrow expectations of being cheap and affordable to all them they must be derided with increasingly exaggerated derision. I don't look at rich people and think 'oh noes, if only I had the money to do what they do' I couldn't give a fuck what they do, as long as I have a few quid in my pocket for a few drinks every now and then with my pals good luck to them. Do the poorest people in the ward look at the fancy fish and chips and pine for them? Wish they could be in Champagne & Fromage?


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> It seems that if certain new ventures do not meet all the narrow expectations of being cheap and affordable to all them they must be derided with increasingly exaggerated derision.


Where is this happening? And who is hating who?

Mind you, there's nothing wrong with having a chortle at people buying ludicrous pricey cocktails that come with polaroids and toy solders because that _is_ funny.


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## deadringer (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> They look fairly normal and affordable, which makes a pleasant change.



Then what's the problem with having other fish and chip shops which are a bit more expensive and might be a less regular but more tasty treat? Different budgets accounted for?


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## ddraig (Jun 9, 2015)

it's not "ridiculous" it is a real thing
people aren't looking at rich people and saying "if only i had the money they do" this is not about 'jealousy' or anything you want to paint it as, it's about people waving their wads around and pricing others out

e2a how long before that few quid in your pocket doesn't buy you a drink where you used to drink?? will it bother you then?


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## deadringer (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Where is this happening? And who is hating who?
> 
> Mind you, there's nothing wrong with having a chortle at people buying ludicrous pricey cocktails that come with polaroids and toy solders because that _is_ funny.



It's happening on this very thread.

Laugh away at people spending silly money on overpriced cocktails. But don't let it make you angry


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Then what's the problem with having other fish and chip shops which are a bit more expensive and might be a less regular but more tasty treat? Different budgets accounted for?


Except catering for the larger budget choices of the one, more affluent demographic increasingly occurs at the expense of the other. Surely you can work that out?


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## deadringer (Jun 9, 2015)

ddraig said:


> it's not "ridiculous" it is a real thing
> people aren't looking at rich people and saying "if only i had the money they do" this is not about 'jealousy' or anything you want to paint it as, it's about people waving their wads around and pricing others out
> 
> e2a how long before that few quid in your pocket doesn't buy you a drink where you used to drink?? will it bother you then?




Who is 'waving their wads?'


I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Until then I'm not going to worry what people with more money than me are doing, eating, or drinking. Unless your super rich it's never enough and you could always do with earning a bit more to make life easier


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## Manter (Jun 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I still, after 20 years, find myself embarrassed and ashamed of my luck.
> My luck is that I'm disabled, and am progressively more disabled, and so have been entitled to social housing for that long. All things being equal, if I weren't disabled, I'd probably be living in some Medway or SE Kent craphole like my siblings and maternal cousins.  All because some culturally-barren people with more money than sense would have priced me out.


You see, I've been reading and liking quite a few of your posts, but then you say culturally barren and you lose me. How do you know these people buying into the area are culturally barren? They may have rich and complex cultures of their own, they may be engaging with the culture around them, they may be culturally engaged elsewhere, or they may just be trying to get on with their lives and not have time to think about such things once they have got home rom work, fed their brood, sat on hold to British Gas for an hour and worried about the fact they still haven't got on top of the ironing. Their culture may extend no further than the telly of an evening. In that way 'incomers' are remarkably little different from people who have been here 10 years, or 20, or more: they are all different. I really don't think it's helpful to dismiss whole groups of people like that, tbh.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Until then I'm not going to worry what people with more money than me are doing, eating, or drinking.


In the words of the Clash: 

"I don't wanna hear about what the rich are doing
I don't wanna go to where the rich are going"


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## Up the junction (Jun 9, 2015)

eh?

This message board is like a group of people got locked in a pub in 1990 and now won't leave. In the context of the wider Brixton - never mind London - it's very, very, weird. And the tribal behaviour  ... *like* ... is desperate and cringing: The Internet that Time Forgot.


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## leanderman (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Except catering for the larger budget choices of the one, more affluent demographic increasingly occurs at the expense of the other. Surely you can work that out?



But how big is this substitution effect?

And does it just inevitably reflect the changing demographics?

If the number of wealthy people in an area increases it seems likely that the shops will change.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The 'culturally barren' people have more than likely been priced out of the areas they grew up in, know, and love. It's one horrible game of musical chairs.


Except when it isn't.
Most "gentrified" areas reach a point where those moving in aren't displaced from elsewhere, and simply looking for "more bang for their buck". The people moving in are those buying into a culture, presumed or otherwise. In Chelsea in the '60s it was a safe version of artist/boho culture. In Brixton in the twenty-teens it's a "safe" version of multi-ethnic culture (eat the food, listen to the music, then go home to your increasingly-homogenised street or apartment block).



> But hating these people and where they go because they quite like a different kind of fish and chips that cost an affordable £12 for them, rather than a basic fish and chips costing £7 that 'the poor' can maybe afford is ridiculous.



The only person inferring "hate" is you. More accuracy and less hyperbole, please.



> It seems that if certain new ventures do not meet all the narrow expectations of being cheap and affordable to all them they must be derided with increasingly exaggerated derision. I don't look at rich people and think 'oh noes, if only I had the money to do what they do' I couldn't give a fuck what they do, as long as I have a few quid in my pocket for a few drinks every now and then with my pals good luck to them. Do the poorest people in the ward look at the fancy fish and chips and pine for them? Wish they could be in Champagne & Fromage?



Well done on entirely missing the point.
The point being that as the appropriation of Brixton's spaces and culture continues, the venues in which you and your mates can afford to have a few drinks are disappearing. The places where you can buy cheap, appetising food are disappearing. The shops and stalls where you can buy cheap ingredients to make your own appetising food are becoming fewer. A Waitrose or a proper-sized M & S food hall is never going to sell eddoes or tins of ackee or callaloo, or sacks of rice, and every time one of the outlets that serves the local "indigenes" closes (most often due to high-volume rent rises), the "choice" available to locals narrows - your "new ventures" close out choice for those who need it most.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> It's happening on this very thread.
> 
> Laugh away at people spending silly money on overpriced cocktails. But don't let it make you angry



Stick your telling people what to do up your fundament.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Except catering for the larger budget choices of the one, more affluent demographic increasingly occurs at the expense of the other. Surely you can work that out?



It seems not.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> eh?
> 
> This message board is like a group of people got locked in a pub in 1990 and now won't leave. In the context of the wider Brixton - never mind London - it's very, very, weird. And the tribal behaviour  ... *like* ... is desperate and cringing: The Internet that Time Forgot.


How DARE they have a different view than you! They must be belittled and dismissed instantly.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> But to what extent does this substitution effect happen?
> 
> And does it just inevitably reflect the changing demographics?
> 
> If the number of wealthy people in an area increases it seems likely that the shops will change.


And that process of tearing long-term communities apart has been *assisted* by the 'co-operative' council. That's what makes people angry.


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## T & P (Jun 9, 2015)

Fuck me this thread is a car crash...


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

T & P said:


> Fuck me this thread is a car crash...


It will be if people just rock up to make empty comments like yours.


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## Rushy (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> How DARE they have a different view than you! They must be belittled and dismissed instantly.


**chortle**


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> **chortle**


|See above.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

Manter said:


> You see, I've been reading and liking quite a few of your posts, but then you say culturally barren and you lose me. How do you know these people buying into the area are culturally barren?



It's something I infer from the fact that they're buying into Brixton culture, or at least the version peddled to them. Why would you leave a culture you're already engaged with (bearing in mind my points in post #860) unless you've no tie to it except its utility to you as a signifier of how "up-to-date" you are? 



> They may have rich and complex cultures of their own, they may be engaging with the culture around them, they may be culturally engaged elsewhere, or they may just be trying to get on with their lives and not have time to think about such things once they have got home rom work, fed their brood, sat on hold to British Gas for an hour and worried about the fact they still haven't got on top of the ironing. Their culture may extend no further than the telly of an evening. In that way 'incomers' are remarkably little different from people who have been here 10 years, or 20, or more: they are all different. I really don't think it's helpful to dismiss whole groups of people like that, tbh.



That's a lot of "mays". I think dismissing whole groups of people (and it's *a* group, as mentioned in post #860) is probably sounder than building chains of "maybe" for them.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> eh?
> 
> This message board is like a group of people got locked in a pub in 1990 and now won't leave. In the context of the wider Brixton - never mind London - it's very, very, weird. And the tribal behaviour  ... *like* ... is desperate and cringing: The Internet that Time Forgot.



And you're like the piss-scented pub bore sitting in the corner, muttering your superiority to the rest of the clientele, and feeling the warm trickle of urine down your leg.
As for "tribal behaviour", what next - use of the term "monothought clique"? Claims of being bullied?


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## Up the junction (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> How DARE they have a different view than you! They must be belittled and dismissed instantly.


I have never in all my days encountered anyone so pious. You are genuinely extraordinary and deluded.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I have never in all my days encountered anyone so pious. You are genuinely extraordinary and deluded.


No, we're not going to have yet another thread filled with your personal attacks.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

Let's take a what-if:

What if you have three functional off-licences/general stores on the first stretch of Coldharbour Lane, all used enough by locals to make them profitable, and then one renter's lease ends and the landlord wants a 50% increase in rent? Result= loss of one off-licence.
While this boosts the takings of the remaining two off-licences, it also alerts the landlord(s) of the remaining two that higher income can be derived, and also consolidates any "street problems" that the three off-licences may have had onto two sites, with a concomitant effect on council and police surveillance, and an increased probability of future licencing problems.
And then there was one, with the above problems consolidated onto a single site, and the landlord(s) engaging in even more _frottage_

Sound familiar to anyone?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> And that process of tearing long-term communities apart has been *assisted* by the 'co-operative' council. That's what makes people angry.



It could *only* happen with the assistance of the local authority. In our case we happen to have a bunch of nu-Labourite centre-right careerists calling themselves a "co-operative council", whose aim (expressed tacitly by some past and present cllrs) is to take Brixton (and indeed all of Lambeth) "up-market", with little thought or care apparently given to the social cost.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I have never in all my days encountered anyone so pious. You are genuinely extraordinary and deluded.



So you don't use a mirror, then?


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## Manter (Jun 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's something I infer from the fact that they're buying into Brixton culture, or at least the version peddled to them. Why would you leave a culture you're already engaged with (bearing in mind my points in post #860) unless you've no tie to it except its utility to you as a signifier of how "up-to-date" you are?
> 
> 
> 
> That's a lot of "mays". I think dismissing whole groups of people (and it's *a* group, as mentioned in post #860) is probably sounder than building chains of "maybe" for them.


I didn't 'buy into' brixton's culture when I moved here. Not did I leave a culture I was already engaged with. People are much, much more complex than that. 

And the maybes are because people are all different and complex- and interesting.


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## leanderman (Jun 9, 2015)

Manter said:


> I didn't 'buy into' brixton's culture when I moved here. Not did I leave a culture I was already engaged with. People are much, much more complex than that.
> 
> And the maybes are because people are all different and complex- and interesting.



Exactly.

It's self-flattery to think people buy into the culture of an area.

For many, their neighbourhood is little more than a Tube station and somewhere to sleep.

Many too like London's anonymity and have as little to do with their neighbours and locality as possible.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

I came here in the early 90s cos I thought it was bonkers and I could do all the things I enjoyed all the time...so I very much came here for the culture...I bedded down anywhere I could to start with, just to be here, because I had no money to pay rent, so I blagged a sofa where I could just to be here. I'd stay out at night or go to parties and not leave just to be able to stay....

I eventually got a roof over my head, a job, had a baby here, raised him here, stumbled into a career, after 10 years of scraping the bottom of the barrel (at 30 (2001) I was still only on 18k a year which was not a lot of dough) I got a bit of a boost in pay and was able to get onto a rent/buy scheme. I have a mortgage, the bank pretty much owns my pad, but I'd sooner be buying than paying £1500 a month to rent a box. I was pushed out of Brixton Hill to Tulse Hill because that's where my money got me the best I could afford.

I couldn't leave. Even with everything going on I still love Brixton. My kid is now 18 and he is born and bred here. I've never been culturally barren and I've never taken my luck (and much of what I have achieved is a mix of luck and hard graft) for granted. I've committed to Brixton and staying here/near and not ever leaving. I'm moving back closer to Brixton Hill shortly and I plan for this to be the place I live in for the rest of my days...

Lots of shit comes and goes....I aint.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Manter said:


> I didn't 'buy into' brixton's culture when I moved here.


Then you'll never know what you may have missed out on. When did you move here?


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Exactly.
> 
> It's self-flattery to think people buy into the culture of an area.
> 
> ...


Yet Brixton historically tended to attract people who wanted to be part of something more than a handy tube location or the proximity to a nice restaurant. Why was that, do you think?


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## shifting gears (Jun 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I came here in the early 90s cos I thought it was bonkers and I could do all the things I enjoyed all the time...so I very much came here for the culture...I bedded down anywhere I could to start with, just to be here, because I had no money to pay rent, so I blagged a sofa where I could just to be here. I'd stay out at night or go to parties and not leave just to be able to stay....
> 
> I eventually got a roof over my head, a job, had a baby here, raised him here, stumbled into a career, after 10 years of scraping the bottom of the barrel (at 30 (2001) I was still only on 18k a year which was not a lot of dough) I got a bit of a boost in pay and was able to get onto a rent/buy scheme. I have a mortgage, the bank pretty much owns my pad, but I'd sooner be buying than paying £1500 a month to rent a box. I was pushed out of Brixton Hill to Tulse Hill because that's where my money got me the best I could afford.
> 
> ...



Fair play. You put down some roots and will ride it out.

Sadly for me, my wage ain't much higher now than yours circa 2001, and simple maths tells me that I'm not long for this part of the world. I'm paying almost double what I was 6/7 years ago - except then I was in a massive room in a 3 bed house share on Brixton Hill; now I'm sharing a 3 bed flat, 20 mins walk from Brixton. 

I'm on the council waiting list but you've got to be realistic about these things - and there's people who need em more than me. But where does it leave me? Even if I could afford to stay, I don't want to flatshare for the rest of my days. I'm single, and unless that changes, there's no question of me ever being able to live by myself - which is soul-destroying. Been sharing places since I was 18, and frankly I've had my fill of it. So what's the solution? Ship out, up north or maybe abroad. Both options under very serious consideration.


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## cuppa tee (Jun 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It's self-flattery to think people buy into the culture of an area.



The developers must be narcissists in that case...........

Brixton Square 





> On Brixton’s vibrant Coldharbour Lane, Brixton Square is buzzy urban living at its best. Almost all of the 155 apartments have their own balcony or terrace and a landscaped courtyard garden offers a calm space in the middle of the development. The bustling and friendly Brixton market next door means tasty street food, independent cafés and bars, market stalls and fabulous coffee are on the doorstep.


Oval Quarter  





> Oval Quarter is at the centre of some of London's most exciting and eclectic districts. Visit Brixton's boisterous market for exotic African, Asian and Caribbean produce. Check out the locally loved Ritzy Cinema,the Brixton Academy and an endless array of nightclubs, bars and cafés.


The Junction 





> Brixton is the epicentre of today's contemporary culture. For bands, playing at the famous Academy is one of the landmarks of success. Artists gather to the pop-up galleries that are an essential part of local life. Everywhere there is music and a buzz in the air. This is true urban living. Just ten minutes from your front door, you can be browsing in the boutiques or taking in the colours and sounds of bustling Brixton Market on Electric Avenue – the first market street to be lit by electricity. There are vintage clothing stores, intriguing bars, pulsating clubs and street art – something new every day. Of course Brixton has always had this attraction. It has long been a melting pot of cosmopolitan cultures and the vibe is just as charged as it has always been.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

My parents moved to Brixton because that's where they got offered a council place. I didn't buy or choose to be part of the Brixton culture.

I've lived in 18 different places since I left home - most was about affordability rather than 'buying into an area'. I preferred Hackney in the late 1990s; it reminded me of a Brixton that had gone. I was vaguely involved with the punk/squatting community up in north London otherwise I didn't really know the locals in the places that I lived.

I say hello to some of the people where I currently live. I will really miss it when I have to move from here.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> The developers must be narcissists in that case...........
> 
> Brixton Square
> Oval Quarter The Junction


The irony being that Brixton is being sold on the promise of a culture and a lifestyle that is disappearing under every new luxury development.

"Buzzy urban living" LOL. People buying into that bullshit are usually the first to complain about any 'buzzy' noise.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> The developers must be narcissists in that case...........
> 
> Brixton Square
> Oval Quarter
> The Junction



it's a sales pitch - it's full of bullshit.


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## soupdragon (Jun 9, 2015)

The theory of the 'culturally barren' people


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> Fair play. You put down some roots and will ride it out.
> 
> Sadly for me, my wage ain't much higher now than yours circa 2001, and simple maths tells me that I'm not long for this part of the world. I'm paying almost double what I was 6/7 years ago - except then I was in a massive room in a 3 bed house share on Brixton Hill; now I'm sharing a 3 bed flat, 20 mins walk from Brixton.
> 
> I'm on the council waiting list but you've got to be realistic about these things - and there's people who need em more than me. But where does it leave me? Even if I could afford to stay, I don't want to flatshare for the rest of my days. I'm single, and unless that changes, there's no question of me ever being able to live by myself - which is soul-destroying. Been sharing places since I was 18, and frankly I've had my fill of it. So what's the solution? Ship out, up north or maybe abroad. Both options under very serious consideration.



The suburbs are ace.   Although even out here it is getting expensive.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

boohoo said:


> it's a sales pitch - it's full of bullshit.


But sales pitches are designed to sell. Property developers spend a fortune coming up with things that they think will help sell their units, so they must think it helps them flog off their lifestyle apartments.


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## cuppa tee (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> But sales pitches are designed to sell. Property developers spend a fortune coming up with things that they think will help sell their units, so they must think it helps them flog off their lifestyle apartments.


...........and developments like PopBrixton fit into the equation.


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## leanderman (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> But sales pitches are designed to sell. Property developers spend a fortune coming up with things that they think will help sell their units, so they must think it helps them flog off their lifestyle apartments.



They say that tosh about everywhere. It's meaningless. 

Maybe it makes the buyers feel less bad about not being able to afford to live in Clapham.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> But sales pitches are designed to sell. Property developers spend a fortune coming up with things that they think will help sell their units, so they must think it helps them flog off their lifestyle apartments.



They need to write something but that won't be the only thing that sells it. You have to have the fixtures and fittings that go with it.

It's not too hard to write a sales pitch about most areas of London (well maybe Thornton Heath Pond  BigMoaner )


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> Fair play. You put down some roots and will ride it out.
> 
> Sadly for me, my wage ain't much higher now than yours circa 2001, and simple maths tells me that I'm not long for this part of the world. I'm paying almost double what I was 6/7 years ago - except then I was in a massive room in a 3 bed house share on Brixton Hill; now I'm sharing a 3 bed flat, 20 mins walk from Brixton.
> 
> I'm on the council waiting list but you've got to be realistic about these things - and there's people who need em more than me. But where does it leave me? Even if I could afford to stay, I don't want to flatshare for the rest of my days. I'm single, and unless that changes, there's no question of me ever being able to live by myself - which is soul-destroying. Been sharing places since I was 18, and frankly I've had my fill of it. So what's the solution? Ship out, up north or maybe abroad. Both options under very serious consideration.



I wish I had answers for you, but I don't....


----------



## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> ...........and developments like PopBrixton fit into the equation.



I suggest you move out into the suburbs. We have plenty of cultural diversity out here with the rare sighting of a hipster.


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## BigMoaner (Jun 9, 2015)

boohoo said:


> They need to write something but that won't be the only thing that sells it. You have to have the fixtures and fittings that go with it.
> 
> It's not too hard to write a sales pitch about most areas of London (well maybe Thornton Heath Pond  BigMoaner )


Rubbish! Thornton Heath Pond has a Greggs. A sit down one ffs!


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> They say that tosh about everywhere. It's meaningless.
> 
> Maybe it makes the buyers feel less bad about not being able to afford to live in Clapham.


I don't agree at all. A lot of the sales pitches I've seen make a big deal of Brixton's "vibrant" culture, and its rich musical roots.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Rubbish! Thornton Heath Pond has a Greggs. A sit down one ffs!



Yes  - this is the best thing about the Pond.  The library is down the road too (and it has a Bollywood film club)


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## Belushi (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't agree at all. A lot of the sales pitches I've seen make a big deal of Brixton's "vibrant" culture, and its rich musical roots.



It's odd though as the first thing some of the new residents seem to do is start complaining about the noise and everything else that comes with living in a vibrant town centre


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## editor (Jun 9, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It's odd though as the first thing some of the new residents seem to do is start complaining about the noise and everything else that comes with living in a vibrant town centre


But that is indeed what some of the self-centred, self important pieces of shit have done.


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## shifting gears (Jun 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I wish I had answers for you, but I don't....



S'alright... There aren't any.

But when these loaded fuckpig wannabe developers, landlords and gentrifiers come on here belittling editor for spellling out what is a distinct reality for not just me, but many fucking people... Well yeah, my blood boils.

*flips the bird

ETA: "landlords". The scum.


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> S'alright... There aren't any.
> 
> But when these loaded fuckpig wannabe developers and gentrifiers come on here belittling editor for spellling out what is a distinct reality for not just me, but many fucking people... Well yeah, my blood boils.
> 
> *flips the bird



So you not coming to the suburbs then?  You get over Brixton. It's my hometown - where I grew up. If you can find ace stuff elsewhere and enjoy it, then you get over places. The hardest bit is when you can't settle.


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## shifting gears (Jun 9, 2015)

Why not start a thread on the suburbs if they're so bloody brilliant? In all seriousness, I'll subscribe and hear what you've got to say, even though the word makes me shudder


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> Why not start a thread on the suburbs if they're so bloody brilliant? In all seriousness, I'll subscribe and hear what you've got to say, even though the word makes me shudder



Croydon thread and the south London drinks are two threads to have a look. Opinions are divided about Croydon (it has some very ugly bits) but it has really grown on me. It depends what you are looking for. As an inner city person, I never though the suburbs would appeal to be but I have been surprised by my feelings towards the place.


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

Mitcham Eastfields is one of the strangest places this side of the Thames, and yet it is only a couple of stops away. Proper "burbs"


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> S'alright... There aren't any.
> 
> But when these loaded fuckpig wannabe developers, landlords and gentrifiers come on here belittling editor for spellling out what is a distinct reality for not just me, but many fucking people... Well yeah, my blood boils.
> 
> ...



Yes, this thread attracts it fair share of clueless cunts who are happy in their own little world....


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

I will venture into pop brixton for a proper look at some point. It's here now and unlikely to vanish. Perhaps there is still a way to drag it back into the real world....


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Mitcham Eastlands is one of the strangest places this side of the Thames, and yet it is only a couple of stops away. Proper "burbs"



Google Lonesome in Streatham - it was near there. 

Some places are more burbs than others.


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## Manter (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Then you'll never know what you may have missed out on. When did you move here?


The second time a just under a decade ago.

But I think you've misunderstood me- I didn't buy into anything. Doesn't mean I wasn't part of something and am not part of something now. 

I moved to an area I liked and made friends with people I liked and took part in things I wanted to take part in. It didn't involve buying, or buying into, anything. 

And I don't think Brixton has (or had) just one culture. My Brixton culture may well not be something you recognise, or that my mother recognises from working here in the 80s, or our neighbour whose parents came here in the windrush immigrations recognises, or the Irish family opposite recognise, or the house of 5 foreign young professionals who have been here less than 6 months and have v cool parties recognise- we all have our own versions of culture. But I belong, I love it, I care about it, I care what is happening to it, have friends here, I have my little local shops where I know the owners and they know me, my son was born here and is growing up here..... And all those other people belong too. And yet many of us are also part of the gentrification problem, and are pricing out others just by living somewhere we love.


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## deadringer (Jun 9, 2015)

editor said:


> How DARE they have a different view than you! They must be belittled and dismissed instantly.




Sometimes we think we are looking out of a window, but are actually looking into a mirror


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Sometimes we think we are looking out of a window, but are actually looking into a mirror



Speak for yourself...


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## 299 old timer (Jun 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I will venture into pop brixton for a proper look at some point. It's here now and unlikely to vanish. Perhaps there is still a way to drag it back into the real world....



I had a look after work. My initial impression was that it is a fairly insipid space. How much Prosecco does the world need? The growers in Veneto must be rubbing their hands together in glee! That said there were people there, but who knows how long it will last?


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## leanderman (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I had a look after work. My initial impression was that it is a fairly insipid space. How much Prosecco does the world need? The growers in Veneto must be rubbing their hands together in glee! That said there were people there, but who knows how long it will last?



Yep. The novelty could wear off - and quickly.


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## BigMoaner (Jun 9, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I suggest you move out into the suburbs. We have plenty of cultural diversity out here with the rare sighting of a hipster.


Burbs remind me of what the inner city was like not so long ago. In many ways i am glad we got pushed out


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Burbs remind me of what the inner city was like not so long ago. In many ways i am glad we got pushed out



One day Alabama 3 will play there and raise house prices so you gotta move!


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## deadringer (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I had a look after work. My initial impression was that it is a fairly insipid space. How much Prosecco does the world need? The growers in Veneto must be rubbing their hands together in glee! That said there were people there, but who knows how long it will last?



The Prosecco or Pop? Prosecco running out this summer if the papers are to believed.....


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## boohoo (Jun 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> One day Alabama 3 will play there and raise house prices so you gotta move!


We will build a brick wall around the place to keep them out!


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## CH1 (Jun 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Mitcham Eastlands is one of the strangest places this side of the Thames, and yet it is only a couple of stops away. Proper "burbs"


Not familiar with it, but seemed amply supplied with council housing when I passed through this afternoon.
Hope they haven't all been right to buy-ed and sold on to buy to let merchants.


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## Gramsci (Jun 10, 2015)

deadringer said:


> It seems that if certain new ventures do not meet all the narrow expectations of being cheap and affordable to all them they must be derided with increasingly exaggerated derision. I don't look at rich people and think 'oh noes, if only I had the money to do what they do' I couldn't give a fuck what they do, as long as I have a few quid in my pocket for a few drinks every now and then with my pals good luck to them. Do the poorest people in the ward look at the fancy fish and chips and pine for them? Wish they could be in Champagne & Fromage?



I didnt used to concern my self much with the rich either. I have changed my mind now. 

The economic crisis , caused by the bankers, has hit the less well off the most. I am around Mayfair a lot and can tell you they are all doing fine up there. Whilst London ( and Brixton) has seen an increase in Soup Kitchens. Thats no accident.

I also think that this country has got nastier. The post war welfare State, now derided, was about creating facilities for all regardless of income. Take the Brixton Rec for example. Its the one thing that people say about it. Its where all kinds of people mix. It was designed when the idea was ordinary people should have just as good facilities that pre war only the well off could afford.

I think we are living in an increasingly polarised society. I was chatting to a well off British Asian guy recently about the election. Told him down my way ( devon- full of backswoods Tories) its all UKIP territory but I think at last minute a lot of these people voted Tory. He looked a bit uncomfortable and said he voted for his wallet. People like him aren’t stupid they know what voting Tory mean. So I would no longer say good luck to the rich now.


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## leanderman (Jun 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> He looked a bit uncomfortable and said he voted for his wallet. People like him aren’t stupid they know what voting Tory mean. So I would no longer say good luck to the rich now.



People are often surprised when you question their decision to vote for their wallet - as if self-interest is the only sane option.


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## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Manter said:


> The second time a just under a decade ago.
> 
> But I think you've misunderstood me- I didn't buy into anything. Doesn't mean I wasn't part of something and am not part of something now.
> 
> ...


This wonderful article absolutely nails it for me.


> Right now, what it’s like now, it’s like we’re being colonised.
> 
> So many people all arriving at once, and all bringing with them the kind of culture that has deliberately and strongly stayed away from Brixton in the past, derided Brixton, dismissed and shunned Brixton as a place of danger and poverty and strangeness.
> 
> ...


http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/11/...es-new-opportunities-and-increasing-disquiet/


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

Manter said:


> I didn't 'buy into' brixton's culture when I moved here. Not did I leave a culture I was already engaged with. People are much, much more complex than that.



Fortunate that I wasn't talking about you then, eh? 



> And the maybes are because people are all different and complex- and interesting.



They are, and they aren't, not if they behave like flies swarming to somewhere honeyed.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Exactly.
> 
> It's self-flattery to think people buy into the culture of an area.



Just because you didn't, doesn't mean that others haven't.  



> For many, their neighbourhood is little more than a Tube station and somewhere to sleep.



Can you quantify "many", please? 



> Many too like London's anonymity and have as little to do with their neighbours and locality as possible.



Again, please quantify. Data or you extrapolating from your own experience?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

boohoo said:


> it's a sales pitch - it's full of bullshit.



Even sales pitches have to be based on actuality, however much they exaggerate it.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I came here in the early 90s cos I thought it was bonkers and I could do all the things I enjoyed all the time...so I very much came here for the culture...I bedded down anywhere I could to start with, just to be here, because I had no money to pay rent, so I blagged a sofa where I could just to be here. I'd stay out at night or go to parties and not leave just to be able to stay....
> 
> I eventually got a roof over my head, a job, had a baby here, raised him here, stumbled into a career, after 10 years of scraping the bottom of the barrel (at 30 (2001) I was still only on 18k a year which was not a lot of dough) I got a bit of a boost in pay and was able to get onto a rent/buy scheme. I have a mortgage, the bank pretty much owns my pad, but I'd sooner be buying than paying £1500 a month to rent a box. I was pushed out of Brixton Hill to Tulse Hill because that's where my money got me the best I could afford.
> 
> ...



Just to remind people, I said that *some* people who've moved here in the last few years are IMO culturally-barren and buying into a Brixton "culture" that has been represented to them by others (often lifestyle supplements etc). I'm not saying that ageing rudeboys and people who've moved here pragmatically are.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

Belushi said:


> It's odd though as the first thing some of the new residents seem to do is start complaining about the noise and everything else that comes with living in a vibrant town centre


I don't get into the centre of Brixton much anymore - health doesn't allow it - but whenever I do, I actually love the bustle and noise, and did even when it was a daily reality for me. it makes me feel alive and reminds me who I am.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> But that is indeed what some of the self-centred, self important pieces of shit have done.



Happens everywwhere. Where my parents are, in a village a mile from a large coastal gas terminal, a group of incomers (mostly 2nd-homers according to the parish council) on an "exclusive" small private estate have complained to the county council about the weekly fire and safety drills at the terminal. Drills that the locals have put up with in good humour for 40 years or more. One particularly daft person even requested that Leylandii or other fast-growing trees be planted around the terminal because "it's an eyesore".


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I had a look after work. My initial impression was that it is a fairly insipid space. How much Prosecco does the world need? The growers in Veneto must be rubbing their hands together in glee! That said there were people there, but who knows how long it will last?



Until Cava or Sekt becomes the next hip fizzy wine.


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## paolo (Jun 10, 2015)

It's really odd what's going on. Before all this arrived, nobody promoted Brixton as being edgy and vibrant.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

paolo said:


> It's really odd what's going on. Before all this arrived, nobody promoted Brixton as being edgy and vibrant.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> This wonderful article absolutely nails it for me.
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/11/...es-new-opportunities-and-increasing-disquiet/



A "wonderful" article written by you!


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## paolo (Jun 10, 2015)

This post really nails it for me.


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## leanderman (Jun 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just because you didn't, doesn't mean that others haven't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's based on the door knocking we have done in this street when organising green-ups, anti-crime stuff, street parties etc. 

Participation rates are very low.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I didnt used to concern my self much with the rich either. I have changed my mind now.
> 
> The economic crisis , caused by the bankers, has hit the less well off the most. I am around Mayfair a lot and can tell you they are all doing fine up there. Whilst London ( and Brixton) has seen an increase in Soup Kitchens. Thats no accident.
> 
> ...


Most people have been badly effected by the crisis. Practically all my friends and family living in Ireland have been effected, some very badly so. Less true of my friends in London. 

I'm not sure I agree the country has got nastier. I think it's become more selfish as people see they will have to work until 67, their pension are fucked etc etc and they start to think "I've paid enough, I'm keeping what I can for myself and my family". Can't blame people really.


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## paolo (Jun 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I didnt used to concern my self much with the rich either. I have changed my mind now.
> 
> The economic crisis , caused by the bankers, has hit the less well off the most. I am around Mayfair a lot and can tell you they are all doing fine up there. Whilst London ( and Brixton) has seen an increase in Soup Kitchens. Thats no accident.
> 
> ...



And the sad thing is, here in Brixton, well away from the hedge funds and the like, we're picking fights with each other.

There's "approved" places for a fancy coffee, and places for the same coffee that aren't "approved".

I'm getting tired of it.


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## CH1 (Jun 10, 2015)

paolo said:


> And the sad thing is, here in Brixton, well away from the hedge funds and the like, we're picking fights with each other.
> There's "approved" places for a fancy coffee, and places for the same coffee that aren't "approved".
> I'm getting tired of it.


I'm not so sure we are "far away from hedge funds and the like" here in Brixton.
Who are the counter parties to PFI schemes like Oval Quarter and "The Junction" going next to the Stockwell skatepark?

I agree there does seem to be extreme partisanship regarding where we take our entertainment and who else is entitle to to use it. I've had sniffy and sarcastic remarks when I have lauded the claims of the Beehive as a decent good-value pub typical of so-called old Brixton.

Maybe we need a social psychologist or anthropologist to illuminate these transactions so we can have a rounded and balanced discussion.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Ms T said:


> A "wonderful" article written by you!


Shame you didn't bother to read actually read the words. It wasn't written by me - a fact clearly explained in the introduction.


> As well as the usual argy-bargy, there’s some really interesting points being raised, *and I thought this spirited essay by long term resident Jack Intrepid (reproduced below) *was particularly worthy of a wider readership.




You should read it now. It really is an excellent piece.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

paolo said:


> And the sad thing is, here in Brixton, well away from the hedge funds and the like, we're picking fights with each other.
> 
> There's "approved" places for a fancy coffee for 'fancy coffees', and places for the same coffee that aren't "approved".
> 
> I'm getting tired of it.


Where are these approved and unapproved places? Where's the master list and who is maintaining it?


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I'm not so sure we are "far away from hedge funds and the like" here in Brixton.
> Who are the counter parties to PFI schemes like Oval Quarter and "The Junction" going next to the Stockwell skatepark?
> 
> I agree there does seem to be extreme partisanship regarding where we take our entertainment and who else is entitle to to use it. I've had sniffy and sarcastic remarks when I have lauded the claims of the Beehive as a decent good-value pub typical of so-called old Brixton.
> ...


I think the Beehive is great. Long may it serve locals of all backgrounds.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 10, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The Prosecco or Pop? Prosecco running out this summer if the papers are to believed.....



Pop. I was a bit tired yesterday and that might have affected my viewpoint, but when I see another space turned over to more bars and eateries I think an opportunity was missed. How, for example, using the space for local school trips? Get the kids interested in gardening and commerce.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It's based on the door knocking we have done in this street when organising green-ups, anti-crime stuff, street parties etc.
> 
> Participation rates are very low.



Thanks for answering. I'm not sure you can extrapolate your experience into a general rule that says "For many, their neighbourhood is little more than a Tube station and somewhere to sleep" or "Many...have as little to do with their neighbours and locality as possible" though, tempting as it may be.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

paolo said:


> And the sad thing is, here in Brixton, well away from the hedge funds and the like, we're picking fights with each other.
> 
> There's "approved" places for a fancy coffee, and places for the same coffee that aren't "approved".



You mean some people supporting local independents over chains? To me that's just common-sense - keep your money within the community rather than adding to MegaCoffeeCorp's bottom line.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 10, 2015)

paolo said:


> This post really nails it for me.



Is that a witty point about what a circular argument this always turns into, or a mistake?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Pop. I was a bit tired yesterday and that might have affected my viewpoint, but when I see another space turned over to more bars and eateries I think an opportunity was missed. How, for example, using the space for local school trips? Get the kids interested in gardening and commerce.


Isn't that what Pop Farm is about? I think Manter was saying her daughter had already been somehow engaged in the early stages of this whilst they were visiting. But realistically, wouldn't the community greenhouses in the park be the best place for school interaction? (Probably is already).


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## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Is that a witty point about what a circular argument this always turns into, or a mistake?


I think he thought he was making a witty point (re: this post) but seeing as he didn't bother to read the linked article either it's backfired somewhat.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Shame you didn't bother to read actually read the words. It wasn't written by me - a fact clearly explained in the introduction.
> 
> 
> 
> You should read it now. It really is an excellent piece.


that's good, explains it well.
Maybe bit too close for comfort for a few! wonder what they actually think now they know it's not written by you and easy to discount/slag off...


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## BigMoaner (Jun 10, 2015)

i went to tescos in thornton heath yesterday, it was rammed. people buying everything from clothes to cloves of garlic to penny sweets to beer. and then afterward i walked down the high street, past the same tired old halal butchers and the dozens of hair dressers. there's very little on fort neef high street to speak of, and not a yuppy in site. think of all those hundreds i saw in tescos - where would they have gone if tescos werent there? high street of course, and there would have been variety, diversity, and thriving little shops.

wanting little businesseses, even wanky expensive ones to go away is a dodgy game to play, imo. it could end up like thornton heath. hardly any shops, wanky or not. we have instead one giant tescos sapping the life out of everywhere else. we'd murder for a few decent independants round here, even if the bloke behind the jump has a beard with cupcake crumbs in it.


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## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Isn't that what Pop Farm is about? I think Manter was saying her daughter had already been somehow engaged in the early stages of this whilst they were visiting. But realistically, wouldn't the community greenhouses in the park be the best place for school interaction? (Probably is already).


Except Pop Brixton is supposed to be offering a "green oasis" in the heart of Brixton and not in a, err, park which is pretty mighty green already.


> Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life.
> 
> A place unlike anything you’ve seen before; it’s own world. You feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. Around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.
> 
> https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton--think-outside-the-box


Besides, there's already community greenhouses operating in Brockwell Park, and they didn't need a storm of buzzwords or the involvement of a multi millionaire property developer to get going.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 10, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> ....even if the bloke behind the jump has a beard with cupcake crumbs in it.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 10, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i went to tescos in thornton heath yesterday, it was rammed. people buying everything from clothes to cloves of garlic to penny sweets to beer. and then afterward i walked down the high street, past the same tired old halal butchers and the dozens of hair dressers. there's very little on fort neef high street to speak of, and not a yuppy in site. think of all those hundreds i saw in tescos - where would they have gone if tescos werent there? high street of course, and there would have been variety, diversity, and thriving little shops.
> 
> wanting little businesseses, even wanky expensive ones to go away is a dodgy game to play, imo. it could end up like thornton heath. hardly any shops, wanky or not. we have instead one giant tescos sapping the life out of everywhere else. we'd murder for a few decent independants round here, even if the bloke behind the jump has a beard with cupcake crumbs in it.


Isn't this a car park issue?

Also I notice the Croydon - Streatham road has three Lidls one at Thornton Heath Pond and the other 2 within a mile or so - all with car parks.
I would suggest characteristic of Thornton Heath wo/man is s/he drives a lot, "rams" superstores and loads up their car boot rather than go on the bus with their shopping like us more inner city types.

One of the reasons why desite all the hedonism and gentrification I would always feel more at home in Brixton than Thornton Heath - though I imagine a car driver (which I am not) would be much better off in CR7


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> when I see another space turned over to more bars and eateries I think an opportunity was missed. How, for example, using the space for local school trips? Get the kids interested in gardening and commerce.





Rushy said:


> Isn't that what Pop Farm is about? I think Manter was saying her daughter had already been somehow engaged in the early stages of this whilst they were visiting.





editor said:


> Except Pop Brixton is supposed to be offering a "green oasis" in the heart of Brixton and not in a, err, park which is pretty mighty green already.



Your auto reply app needs some tweaking. It seems to be churning out non sequiturs.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Your auto reply app needs some tweaking. It seems to be churning out non sequiturs.


Yes, best throw out another ad hominem rather then engage with the issue of just how green this "green oasis" actually is.


----------



## Chilavert (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> How DARE they have a different view than you! They must be belittled and dismissed instantly.


Genuine lol.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Chilavert said:


> Genuine lol.


Genuine


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, best throw out another ad hominem rather then engage with the issue of just how green this "green oasis" actually is.



Indeed.
*** nods sagely ***


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

I can honestly say I don't give a monkeys if it's green or not. I doubt I would want to go their for its greeness even if it was more green.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, best throw out another ad hominem rather then engage with the issue of just how green this "green oasis" actually is.



Unless I missed a bit wandering round it didn't look very green to me. A few planters placed here and there, nothing outstanding from a garden design point of view. Hopefully it will grow out as summer progresses and prove me wrong.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 10, 2015)

where's this all going to end? a reversal of everything and brixton returning to how it was on 2 May 1998? can the tape be rewound? that's not to say it's not worth fighting, but if people think there is going to be less of this stuff rather than more i fear are just going to be mentally tortured by it. it's almost like wishing on decline? perhaps what's needed is a wacking great crack epidemic, that'll tidy things up.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I can honestly say I don't give a monkeys if it's green or not. I doubt I would want to go their for its greeness even if it was more green.


Well that's great. But when something is being sold to the community at large as being a new "green oasis" for Brixton, it's entirely valid to question what the fuck is going on.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I can honestly say I don't give a monkeys if it's green or not. I doubt I would want to go their for its greeness even if it was more green.


I'll be disappointed if they don't green it up. But my understanding from their proposal is that they intend to. I wouldn't expect them to do so until the building work is finished.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

Are we talking rolling hills green or pot plant green?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Are we talking rolling hills green or pot plant green?


Mostly roof top stuff and planters from looking at the drawings. The landscaping company in charge is * I think * the same one who have been running projects with local businesses and residents in other parts of Lambeth. My girlfriend and others from her company, other businesses and schools got involved in planting and maintenance work in Waterloo.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 10, 2015)

Major criticisms are that Pop is too food oriented and not green enough.

Well, they have not yet built and allocated the non-food units and, indeed, and are saying today that applications for these spaces have now opened.

And the green stuff is scheduled to come. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Major criticisms are that Pop is too food oriented and not green enough.
> 
> Well, they have not yet built and allocated the non-food units and, indeed, and are saying today that applications for these spaces have now opened.
> 
> And the green stuff is scheduled to come. Fingers crossed.


They made it clear at the Q&A that they were filling the more expensive units first because the rent from those is subsidising the cheaper ones.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 10, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I'm not so sure we are "far away from hedge funds and the like" here in Brixton.
> Who are the counter parties to PFI schemes like Oval Quarter and "The Junction" going next to the Stockwell skatepark?
> 
> I agree there does seem to be extreme partisanship regarding where we take our entertainment and who else is entitle to to use it. I've had sniffy and sarcastic remarks when I have lauded the claims of the Beehive as a decent good-value pub typical of so-called old Brixton.
> ...


sorry I think that might have me being sniffy about the Beehive, but only because as a woman I never felt comfortable/safe there, but I'm glad it's there for the older chaps who obviously are very much at home there.


editor said:


> Where are these approved and unapproved places? Where's the master list and who is maintaining it?


 I thought you were.
I can't keep up with your list of un/approved places but its ok as I can't afford to go out much  anyway.

I haven't been to pop brixton, and may not bother - doesn't sound as if its for me anyway as I don't like shopping and only eat out on rare occasions.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 10, 2015)

is macdonalds on the approved list? cheap food. place popular with locals. sit and chat. employs local people and follows employment laws? quite representative of brixton community

approved or not?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 10, 2015)

i remember when i fought off a particularly frightening come down in there for 3 hours, forehead on the cool table affair. they wouldn't let me do that in cheese and champs or whatever it's called!


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 10, 2015)

cheese and balls.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I thought you were.
> I can't keep up with your list of un/approved places but its ok as I can't afford to go out much  anyway.


Where is this list of un/approved places, please?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Where is this list of un/approved places, please?


in the albert's safe.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 10, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry I think that might have me being sniffy about the Beehive


I understand that issue - but seemed to me some other people were concerned about age and maybe ethnicity. Which seems a bit odd as people are always going on about being inclusive - on both sides of these arguments.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Where is this list of un/approved places, please?


http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/brixton-academy-the-ultimate-list-of-bars-and-pubs-for-pre-gig-drinks/
http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/12/...all-the-bars-boozers-dives-and-cocktail-bars/
http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/the-ulti...he-best-restaurants-and-cafes-in-sw2-and-sw9/
seem to recall you are fond of Kaff too


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

I always thought The List was a more mystical, fluid affair which can be neither learnt nor shared. If you don't already know it,  you can never know it.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/brixton-academy-the-ultimate-list-of-bars-and-pubs-for-pre-gig-drinks/
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/12/...all-the-bars-boozers-dives-and-cocktail-bars/
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/the-ulti...he-best-restaurants-and-cafes-in-sw2-and-sw9/
> seem to recall you are fond of Kaff too


Um, I didn't write the cafe listing, so there goes that argument. And it's not set out as an "approved/non approved" listing anyway.  In fact, neither word appears in any of those pages.

And yes, I do like Kaff (in the daytimes). So what?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 10, 2015)

I didn't realise this was an argument. 
Does  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





not mean its 'approved' in some way? I had thought most of Brixton Buzz was by you, as you keep linking to it. Perhaps have I misunderstood. 

There is a lot of slagging off of new venues that goes on on this forum.  Probably nothing wrong with Kaff, most of the village, other brixton cocktail bars  or Pop Brixton either.  Just because I don't go there myself or whether or not I could personally afford to eat/drink there is another thing. I realised long ago that I'm not in the target market for many places. But each to their own I say.

I've only been reading this thread to see if theres anything for me at Pop, and there isn't so far.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 10, 2015)

yes it is an argument and hypocrisy hunting and finding any fault whatsoever in what editor posts so he can be attacked for it
it is a recurring theme and very tedious


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 10, 2015)

not as tedious as bigging up some places but slamming others, when really there's not a lot of difference between the two? maybe that grates. 


friendofdorothy said:


> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/brixton-academy-the-ultimate-list-of-bars-and-pubs-for-pre-gig-drinks/
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/12/...all-the-bars-boozers-dives-and-cocktail-bars/
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/the-ulti...he-best-restaurants-and-cafes-in-sw2-and-sw9/
> seem to recall you are fond of Kaff too


right there - that little collection of articles, glorious as they are and nicely put together, are part of the march towards the Guildfordisation of brixton.

i think that's what grates. the total inconsistency of the argument. on one hand slamming posh chip shops but on the other hand approving posh pubs. makes no sense. shrugs shoulders. maybe forget the pop ups and focus on the landlords.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I didn't realise this was an argument.
> Does
> 
> 
> ...


This is ridiculous. *I didn't write those cafe reviews for fuck's sake*. They're not my opinions and they don't add up to an 'approved/non approved' list that was claimed here:


paolo said:


> There's "approved" places for a fancy coffee, and places for the same coffee that aren't "approved".


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> not as tedious as bigging up some places but slamming others, when really there's not a lot of difference between the two? maybe that grates.


That's called having an honest opinion and sharing it. Just like you and everyone else does here. And exactly who have I "slammed"?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

Champagne and Fromage?


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Champagne and Fromage?


Where are they "slammed " in those reviews?  What are you on about? 

I don't even fucking mention the place.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

They have been slammed left right and centre on its sister site


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Champagne and Fromage?


And here's the food review (which I didn't write)@


> *CHAMPAGNE + FROMAGE*
> Champagne Bar/Bistro
> _Opinion dividing new upmarket arrival_
> Most people are happy with the traditional liquid cheese accompaniments of wine or ale, but the quality range of cheese on offer means that Champagne and Fromage may be more than the gimmick it first appears.  Using the shop to take some bits home feels like a better option than sitting in the often chilly market to indulge in this treat (for most of us), although blankets are provided.
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> They have been slammed left right and centre on its sister site


Now that is fucking desperate. Yes, I have a personal opinion and I have expressed it here, just like you can express your personal opinion. But that is not the same as compiling an "approved/unapproved" listing. Have you actually got a point here?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

With an opening sentence to set the tone


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> With an opening sentence to set the tone


I didn't write it.  didn't write it. I didn't write it. 

Have you actually got any kind of coherent point here, or are you just going to keep on throwing shit at me in the hope that some of it might stick?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Have you actually got a point here?



No. You asked:



editor said:


> And exactly who have I "slammed"?



I repeat:



editor said:


> *I* "slammed"?



No point, just answering your question.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2015)

"_Opinion dividing new upmarket arrival" _is quite fair, and true.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

Anyway, can we all stop derailing this thread and get back on topic


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> "_Opinion dividing new upmarket arrival" _is quite fair, and true.


Indeed. It is entirely accurate. And fair.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2015)

http://londonist.com/2015/06/whats-brixtons-shipping-container-village-like.php


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> http://londonist.com/2015/06/whats-brixtons-shipping-container-village-like.php


I saw that. Thought it was a advertorial.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2015)

_"It’s the coolest new space that was created by the local community to also support the local community."_
http://donutsanddetours.com/detour-pop-brixton/


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

Loads of plants turned up at Pop today.

Planters all around the outside. About 30 oil drums and planters in the main courtyard area planted with fruit trees, I think. Loads of flowers and plants in the main poly tunnel.

ETA apple trees, according to a couple of the tags.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Loads of plants turned up at Pop today.
> 
> Planters all around the outside. About 30 oil drums and planters in the main courtyard area planted with fruit trees, I think. Loads of flowers and plants in the main poly tunnel.


I'm imagining myself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything I’ve seen before; its own world. I can feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. I must be at Pop Brixton.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2015)




----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm imagining myself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything I’ve seen before; its own world. I can feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. I must be at Pop Brixton.


Well, there are a lot of plants. Nothing on the roofs yet. But there are builders climbing all over those so that would be a bit daft. The plants are small and will need time to grow. But that's how plants work. And then once they have properly set root they are hugely rewarding.  You have to be patient with plants.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 10, 2015)

have you got shares in this venture?


----------



## deadringer (Jun 10, 2015)

ddraig said:


> yes it is an argument and hypocrisy hunting and finding any fault whatsoever in what editor posts so he can be attacked for it
> it




Questioning posts containing ridiculous statements, smears, and hyperbole is not 'attacking a poster' 

Again, I'll ask you, who is 'waving their wads around'?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 10, 2015)

the 25yr old multi millionaire for starters


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Questioning posts containing ridiculous statements, smears, and hyperbole is not 'attacking a poster'
> 
> Again, I'll ask you, who is 'waving their wads around'?


Is a "smear" quoting directly from the Pop Brixton or their parters' website then?

I think it's right that we should take a closer look at the business practices of those companies our "co-operative" council is forming partnerships with.

What do you think of The Collective and their clearly stated aim of maximising profits by stripping out old houses and then squeezing in as many tiny little rental units as humanly possible? Do you think they're the ideal kind of partner for a "green oasis"  "community" project? Do you think its right that we should be bringing in multi millionaire property developers with zero connections to the area? I think these are all valid areas of debate.

And what do you think of the 60 mins per week "community giveback" scheme so generously introduced for Pop tenants - bearing in mind that the "community" may just be the commercial shop unit next door - like the NZ wine importers?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 10, 2015)

Bingo!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2015)

I had a proper mooch about Pop this evening. It was a fairly muted atmosphere, probably because it's still early. If you like eating and drinking and doing little else then there's plenty of options. All the people in the booths were very smiley...like needy smiley...like please buy from me smiley...

It wasn't at all busy, but it still felt a little claustrophobic to me. Like wandering a ship's gally. It's a food market basically. The upstairs area is ok, but again, it's narrow, and when busy is likely to be uncomfortable. The food prices in some of the places seemed more reasonable than other.

The security guard was observing and writing things down on a clipboard, not sure what that was about. Assorted hipsters were outside smoking. That made the entrance way a bit unwelcoming.

As for representing Brixton or the Brixton demographic, I really don't know. The only people of colour were working serving food and drinks.

The area in the brochures that is supposed to house performance art/music etc looks yet to be completed. Not sure when that's planned to open.

If I'm honest, I loathe al fresco eating, and always have, so there's not a great deal to tempt me to frequent the place much at all. How it intends to operate in the evening during the winter will be interesting to see. It's going to be cold in there, but then people are daft enough to sit in the village eating under a blanket, so maybe they are stupid enough to sit in a shipping yard eating under a blanket too.

If they get some decent entertainment in there I may venture back, but as a place to eat and drink, it's not for me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> not as tedious as bigging up some places but slamming others, when really there's not a lot of difference between the two? maybe that grates.



Wow, person in "expressing a personal preference" shocker!
You do realise that a review, whether by a local or a food critic, boils down to personal preference, right?


----------



## Maharani (Jun 10, 2015)

I was down there this afternoon for a nose it just felt like the Village but outside. Defo agree that it's cramped and I'm not sure what they intend to do during the rainy months (pretty much 10 months of the year).


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wow, person in "expressing a personal preference" shocker!
> You do realise that a review, whether by a local or a food critic, boils down to personal preference, right?



Don't be coming on here with your reason and your logic....


----------



## T & P (Jun 10, 2015)

Unfortunately reason and logic are seldom in evidence when various venues, bars and eateries get discussed in this forum, which is perhaps why eyebrows are raised from time to time.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2015)

You could say that about any subject discussed on U75.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

T & P said:


> Unfortunately reason and logic are seldom in evidence when various venues, bars and eateries get discussed in this forum, which is perhaps why eyebrows are raised from time to time.


Not interested in engaging with any of the points raised in post #999 then? No opinions?


----------



## T & P (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Not interested in engaging with any of the points raised in post #999 then? No opinions?


 I was replying to a comment that was discussing something else, if that's okay.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

T & P said:


> I was replying to a comment that was discussing something else, if that's okay.


Yes, that's fine.  It's just that you seem to be making a habit of just popping in to criticise the discussion without bothering to contribute anything yourself.


T & P said:


> Fuck me this thread is a car crash...





T & P said:


>


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 10, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry I think that might have me being sniffy about the Beehive, but only because as a woman I never felt comfortable/safe there, but I'm glad it's there for the older chaps who obviously are very much at home there.



Its not just for the "older chaps". 

I have been in there on Saturday afternoons and it has a more mixed crowd. In evenings its not just the older chaps. 

The thing is its cheap and affordable. Including the food. Which is ok. Compared to most of rest of Brixton. Its also as CH1 says a pub. Its a proper pub not a pub thats actually a late night club in reality. 

And the beers are just as good as places at twice the price. 

Without it some of us could not afford to go out to a pub.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, that's fine.  It's just that you seem to be making a habit of just popping in to criticise the discussion without bothering to contribute anything yourself.


There are plenty of examples of this which you choose to ignore. So what's the problem in this particular case?


----------



## han (Jun 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its not just for the "older chaps".
> 
> I have been in there on Saturday afternoons and it has a more mixed crowd. In evenings its not just the older chaps.
> 
> ...


I feel like that about the Crown and Sceptre at the top of Brixton Hill. Maybe I should try the Beehive....


----------



## han (Jun 10, 2015)

I would say with Wetherspoons pubs, actually the beer and cider are twice as good and had half as cheap. The best-tasting and best kept Stowford Press I've ever had is at the Crown and Sceptre, and believe me, I've tried a few. And it's a proper local it really is, despite being a Wetherspoons.


----------



## T & P (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, that's fine.  It's just that you seem to be making a habit of just popping in to criticise the discussion without bothering to contribute anything yourself.


I was just contributing to it, I thought?  Or is the subject in question less valid than, say, bingo halls?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

han said:


> I would say with Wetherspoons pubs, actually the beer and cider are twice as good and had half as cheap. The best-tasting and best kept Stowford Press I've ever had is at the Crown and Sceptre, and believe me, I've tried a few. And it's a proper local it really is, despite being a Wetherspoons.


Half as cheap sounds a lot like twice as expensive to me, Han?


----------



## han (Jun 10, 2015)

[emoji15] [emoji23] 
You're right. I meant half as expensive.


----------



## han (Jun 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Half as cheap sounds a lot like twice as expensive to me, Han?


People are practically fighting over who's going to get the next round in.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There are plenty of examples of this which you choose to ignore. So what's the problem in this particular case?


Etc etc.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


>


Yep. Thought as much.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yep. Thought as much.


I wasn't talking to you. It had nothing to do with you. Can you stop fucking stirring for just for one fucking minute?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> I wasn't talking to you. It had nothing to do with you. Can you stop fucking stirring for just for one fucking minute?


Mine was a fair question. And I totally understand why you edited your post after I replied to it.  Your response was a bit predictable.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Mine was a fair question. And I totally understand why you edited your post after I replied to it.  Your response was a bit predictable.


Can you just stop now please.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Can you just stop now please.


Sure. I'll stop asking my fair question for today right now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

Maharani said:


> I was down there this afternoon for a nose it just felt like the Village but outside. Defo agree that it's cramped and I'm not sure what they intend to do during the rainy months (pretty much 10 months of the year).



It's Brixton, not Haverfordwest! Surely you mean "8 months of the year"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yep. Thought as much.



You're always saying that you thought this or thought that, but most of what you post shows very little thought, very little consideration, just the need to have a pop - something which you do snidely rather than just coming out and challenging.
Wanker.


----------



## deadringer (Jun 11, 2015)

ddraig said:


> the 25yr old multi millionaire for starters



Which 25yr old milliionaire? Genuine question BTW.

 Where was he waving it?


----------



## deadringer (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Is a "smear" quoting directly from the Pop Brixton or their parters' website then?
> 
> I think it's right that we should take a closer look at the business practices of those companies our "co-operative" council is forming partnerships with.
> 
> ...



The smear I was referring to was the statement people have been making about security being there to 'keep out the oiks' or to ensure 'only the right kind of people are allowed in' Which is a totally ridiculous point.


The thing is, yes there is a serious discussion to be had about The collective, BTL landlords, etc, I don't think you'll get anyone singing their praises. But this serious discussion gets lost among all the ridiculous guff about security guards, mint and wasabi fish, and the price of a cocktail vs a pint at The Beehive.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Which 25yr old milliionaire? Genuine question BTW.
> 
> Where was he waving it?


I think any wad waving has to be virtual but he's sure keen to share the story of his amaaaaazing success, and tell the world how he wants to be even more amazingly successful, all thanks to his master stroke of ripping out homes and squeezing teensy weensy homes into the tiniest possible spaces - and making loads of ££££s as a result.

"Dedication to disruption is something Reza Merchant takes to a whole new level" says the stomach churning blurb. Being able to leverage a a £1.8m loan helps too, of course.  More here: https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/reza-merchant--strength-in-numbers

Personally, I wish there was no place in Pop Brixton for multi millionaire property developers like this bloke and his 'collective.' I think his company falls far short of the original ethos of the project, yet no one seems to want to talk about it, or challenge Lambeth as to why this type of uber-capitalist entrepreneur has got involved in a community project in an area that has major deprivation.

What do you think?


----------



## deadringer (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> I think any wad waving has to be virtual but he's sure keen to share the story of his amaaaaazing success, and tell the world how he wants to be even more amazingly successful, all thanks to his master stroke of ripping out homes and squeezing teensy weensy homes into the tiniest possible spaces - and making loads of ££££s as a result.
> 
> "Dedication to disruption is something Reza Merchant takes to a whole new level" says the stomach churning blurb. Being able to leverage a a £1.8m loan helps too, of course.  More here: https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/reza-merchant--strength-in-numbers
> 
> ...




An interesting read, I skim read it earlier up thread so thanks for reposting. I think if the focus is on this type of involvement rather than the nuts and bolts of pop you'd have a lot more people on your side. These should be the key battle grounds, and not who is eating or drinking what from what concession stand.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

article in spiked. don't shoot the messenger. 


http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...ers-against-gentrification/16920#.VXkxPflVj5w


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

from said article.

"The campaigns to stop the gentrification of Hackney and Brixton today are largely led by the gentrifiers of the preceding decade. One cause célèbre of #ReclaimBrixton are the murals painted by artists on the threatened Brixton arches, including an ethereal dreadlocked rasta by the Norwegian artist Zina. In the street party that followed, the signifiers were multicultural, but the sociology was decidedly middle class. One tweeter admitted: ‘Not sure where I stand on #ReclaimBrixton. I was a mid-90s gentrifier; I’d happily smash Foxton’s window. Might do next week, for lolz.’

Hackney filmmaker Benedict Seymour described the paradoxes of the anti-gentrification protests: ‘Each wave of colonisers plays out the contradictions of their particular claim to space, taking sides against the next phase of gentrification in which they nevertheless conspire.’"

Seen in the round, the contrast between yuppie outsiders and original residents is absurd. The British National Party happily took up the #ReclaimBrixton tag, contrasting pictures of the area’s white residents from before the Second World War with pictures of black immigrants – which was not at all what the protesters intended. All the same, making rising house prices into the basis of a new ‘class war’ is to confuse the surface fluctuations in market prices with the underlying relations of production. Turning conflict into an imaginary contest over resources is just a way of dividing ordinary people against each other, as residents and incomers, or as old versus young, or as traditional versus new, or as black versus white.

Those who see rising house prices as a gentrification of London are not really seeing the big picture. There are between eight million and 10million people living in London, depending on where you draw the boundary. But there are not between eight million and 10million millionaires in London. It is just not possible for London to be taken over by yuppies. There are simply not that many of them. Rather, rising prices are penalising everyone, so that, while there is clearly some churn, overall the same people are paying more on their rents and mortgages for less space.

The great disaster of the anti-gentrification protests is that they are intrinsically conservative, protesting against change and targeting new developments in particular. But new developments are exactly what we need. Unless many more homes are built, then prices will continue to rise, which will always penalise the worse off. That the new developments are too few, and will therefore tend to be too expensive, is a problem. But the answer is more development and more change, not less.

It is the gap between the number of houses built and the number of people that need them that has forced up house prices. And rising prices are what altered the sociology of suburbanisation and urbanisation. Once houses in the inner city stopped losing value, and started to climb in the 1980s, then demand started to ramp up. It is only by building many more houses that the inflationary bubble can be burst.

The nostalgia for a decrepit yesterday is particularly perverse. When the inner city was derelict and heavily policed, people dreamed of the regeneration of their neighbourhoods. Today’s protests are for the most part the whining of the squeezed middle, the voice of yuppie entitlement dismayed that they cannot keep pace on the hedonic treadmill.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

deadringer said:


> An interesting read, I skim read it earlier up thread so thanks for reposting. I think if the focus is on this type of involvement rather than the nuts and bolts of pop you'd have a lot more people on your side. These should be the key battle grounds, and not who is eating or drinking what from what concession stand.



What specific role is the anything-but Collective playing at Pop?


----------



## Winot (Jun 11, 2015)

Interesting article. But wasn't Windrush Square called that before the regeneration?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

from the comments:

"It's all very well saying more houses and flats need to be built, but because we don't plan things in a proper way, squeezing more people in to existing spaces that have finite things like road space, can make life worse for the people who live there. Take any London borough and increase the population by 20%, like we're going to have to do, and all I see is worse traffic jams and more overcrowded tube trains. Unless you were to completely redesign the A23 Streatham High Road for example, and build a motorway through it, you are never going to change it from being a horrible bottleneck. Put up the population in Croydon, and loads more people are going to want to commute into central London every morning. Or drive their children to school.
And the places that are now jammed up with traffic in the suburbs, will only get worse.
I also hear that our traffic pollution is so bad that the EU has insisted we do something about it.
Thousands of people have early deaths every year because of it apparently. So how is half a million more cars on London's roads going to make that any better? It never will.
Britain would be a nicer place if we only had 40 million people imo."

it's worrying, imo. especially with so many pouring into the capital all the time. when will the population size of london actually flatline or decline?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

Yes more houses are needed but I can't see how we will ever catch up with demand whilst England/UK remains so London centric.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

my daughter i doubt when she's older will even by able to rent here, let alone buy here.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

london that is.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yes more house are needed but I can't see how we will ever catch up with demand whilst England/UK remains so London centric.


impossible. i would think you could build 2k of homes in brixton and they'd still start at 500k plus! (and all sell)


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

firs thing we need to do - fuck that sack of shit Boris out of here.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> impossible. i would think you could build 2k of homes in brixton and they'd still start at 500k plus! (and all sell)


Is it 22,000 (I think I saw that figure on here) on Lambeth's council house waiting list alone?


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## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

i found it fascinating in that article when he mentions about population decline in the 60s and 70s in innner london. jeez i can't even imagine what that is like being a londoner in my life time.


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## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

areas losing people and not being replaced. what a strange phenomena!

when we bought our little hovel in thornton bloody heath a few years back, the weekend the house was on the market was an "open day". 25 people turned up. nearly all young proffs.

t
h
o
r
n
t
o
n

h
e
a
t
h


christ knows what it's like in brixton and how to reverse it? build 10k of homes a year???


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

maybe our whole economy is based on this bubble and to pop it would mean the arse falls out of the whole economy?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> maybe our whole economy is based on this bubble and to pop it would mean the arse falls out of the whole economy?


I imagine that, as it has happened before, something will happen which will reverse the population growth in London. No idea what or when.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

Interesting article, even if I do disagree with his hobby horse.  The history is about right, although his emphasis on the effects of Brixton Challenge seem a bit overplayed, compared with the huge effect of the GLC hard to let giveaway a few years earlier, which filled the streets with skips and prompted far more regeneration than a top down set of plans that were probably corrupt anyway (and yes, BC was the scheme that promised to bring back the canopies...).

This line is the key but he has it arse about face


> Once houses in the inner city stopped losing value, and started to climb in the 1980s, then demand started to ramp up.



Gentrification is an effect of the demand- popularity- of urban living. Popularity ramped up house prices, not the other way round*. That's what changed, sometime in the early 80s people with choices started wanting to live in the city again, after decades of trying to get away from crumbling slums, smog and poverty to seek solace in the burbs and new towns.  No doubt sociologists have studied this, although I've never read anything to really account for why it happened, fairly contemporaneously here and elsewhere in the world.  But it continues unabated, with only the merest hints that the wheel is turning and people are starting to look outside the inner city for enhanced quality of life. When that does happen, and it will, the clamour to get into the inner city will abate, home prices will stabilise then start to drop, and then there'll be something of a flood as 'investors' try to get their money out.  Which is why I disagree with his hobby horse- simply building ever more units on every bit of space is short-termist waste of available resources.  Far better to find ways to make inner city living unpopular than to encourage ever greater inner city population growth.


*That's not so much true recently, when the profits on buying and selling homes have been so vast, but in the 80s few people were doing that, particularly in unpopular Brixton where _‘lingering association with the riots of 1981 has dissuaded investment there, and has kept property prices artificially low’._


----------



## boohoo (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I imagine that, as it has happened before, something will happen which will reverse the population growth in London. No idea what or when.



Global warming, rising water and London Upon sea!


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Global warming, rising water and London Upon sea!


croydon will have 87 zones. one of which is in france.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 11, 2015)

When houses were built in the Victorian period, the occupants rented rather than owned which led to them being able to move when necessary. For the rich middle classes living in the big homes, if their area fell out of fashion or there were problems with the amenities, they could move to the next trendy place. In some areas houses would remains empty for several years, and the actual property owner would reduce rents to get a new tenant - often lower middle class or working class. House could be divided and rented out as rooms. This change in an area could happen quite swiftly and could change a bunch of houses into a slum pretty quickly.

Today people are more settled in their living arrangements and because of that I don't think we will see an exodus of the people too soon.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> Interesting article, even if I do disagree with his hobby horse.  The history is about right, although his emphasis on the effects of Brixton Challenge seem a bit overplayed, compared with the huge effect of the GLC hard to let giveaway a few years earlier, which filled the streets with skips and prompted far more regeneration than a top down set of plans that were probably corrupt anyway (and yes, BC was the scheme that promised to bring back the canopies...).
> 
> This line is the key but he has it arse about face
> 
> ...



so maybe instead of saying "yuppies out", it'd be better to say "yuppies, your life is better elsewhere, nothing to see here, move on?"

not gonna happen, i don't think. too close to central london. too close to that massive giant financial centre (one of the biggest and successful in the world). not to mention the arts industry, and the service industry.

we need our regional cities to do better to soak up the graduates up north from being sucked into london so readily. a more balanced country.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i found it fascinating in that article when he mentions about population decline in the 60s and 70s in innner london. jeez i can't even imagine what that is like being a londoner in my life time.


in the 70s there were queues at the Housing Advice Centre of people wanting to get out to places like Bletchley.  A lot of that was decants from the massive clearance schemes, but by no means all of it eg, it seemed like very few GLC tenants weren't on a transfer list of one sort or another but most of their housing stock was officially 'hard to let'.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> so maybe instead of saying "yuppies out", it'd be better to say "yuppies, your life is better elsewhere, nothing to see here, move on?"
> 
> not gonna happen, i don't think. too close to central london. too close to that massive giant financial centre (one of the biggest and successful in the world). not to mention the arts industry, and the service industry.
> 
> we need our regional cities to do better to soak up the graduates up north from being sucked into london so readily. a more balanced country.


tax unearned profits from housing sales, including first and only residence.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> tax unearned profits from housing sales, including first and only residence.


ouch!

but yeah, why not.


----------



## Winot (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yes more houses are needed but I can't see how we will ever catch up with demand whilst England/UK remains so London centric.



Agreed. Many of the UK's problems would be addressed by a rebalancing away from London. Much as I despise most of Osbourne's policies, his 'Northern Powerhouse' idea is a good one.


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## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

Liverpool's population is shrinking as London's grows. 

The 300,000 net annual migrant figure wouldn't be such an issue if Britain was more balanced.


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## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> ouch!
> 
> but yeah, why not.


Social tenant or private renter since 1980, zone 2: paid for their home over and over again in their rent but have no equity in it and now can't afford to move as they'd swap from old style tenancy to new and their rent would skyrocket.

Owner occupier since 1980, zone 6: spent all those years paying a fortune to commute daily, watched their house price climb steadily but not spectacularly; can afford to move out to somewhere cheaper but not further into the city.

Owner occupier since 1980, zone 2: minted, their home is now worth something like 20-30 times what they paid for it.

Owner occupier since 2012, zone 2: minted, their home is now worth tens of thousands of pounds more than they paid for it.

I don't know about Liverpool specifically, but in many less popular provincial areas home price inflation is low, owners can't sell and even if they could their equity is insufficient to buy them somewhere desirable.

In whose interest is it that unearned profits from residential property sales are tax free? (above some threshold)


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## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> tax unearned profits from housing sales, including first and only residence.


Taxing profit on your home would just make moving home so expensive that everyone would stay put and clog up the market, wouldn't it?

And to be fair, it's not really profit if you still have to buy a new home at current prices (as well pay stamp duty).


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## Winot (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> tax unearned profits from housing sales, including first and only residence.



Downside would be a disincentive for people in large houses to downsize, so fewer houses would be released onto market for growing families, so prices would rise.


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## Winot (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> And to be fair, it's not really profit if you still have to buy a new home at current prices (as well pay stamp duty).



Yeah this too.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Loads of plants turned up at Pop today.
> 
> Planters all around the outside. About 30 oil drums and planters in the main courtyard area planted with fruit trees, I think. Loads of flowers and plants in the main poly tunnel.
> 
> ETA apple trees, according to a couple of the tags.



Any idea where these plants came from ? a nursery ?


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## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

drifting off thread, my fault, sorry.


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## Winot (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> drifting off thread, my fault, sorry.



No complaint from me - interesting to discuss macro issues without finger-pointing.


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## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Any idea where these plants came from ? a nursery ?


I could not tell you with any certainty where they came from. Do you have a theory that you'd like to share? Perhaps you object to the fruit trees not having been propagated from pippin pips on Pop's own plots?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

Hipster horticulture..


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## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

awesome beard, bro. but flowers are too mainstream. better have weeds.


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## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> awesome beard, bro. but flowers are too mainstream. better have weeds.


A weed is only a flower in the wrong place.


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## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Taxing profit on your home would just make moving home so expensive that everyone would stay put and clog up the market, wouldn't it?


that's a bad idea why?  In whose interests is the churn caused by profit taking? The current arrangement leads to massive concentration of wealth- it's time to consider how to spread that more evenly.  Don't forget that the market always adapts.




> And to be fair, it's not really profit if you still have to buy a new home at current prices (as well pay stamp duty).



of course it's profit- what other word applies?

If it's unearned because it's come about through increased desirability of the area, not because substantial structural work has caused it, then it should be taxed.  After all, the money has come from somewhere, it's been sucked out of the rest of the economy because housing is more profitable than other, perhaps more productive, uses.

And on a purely social level, I would argue that increasing growth in wealth inequality based on a confidence trick like housing inflation is massively damaging to society.  That's currently playing itself out most acutely in previously unpopular inner city areas like this one.  For now it manifests itself only as venom on some thread on the internet. (edit: mostly, thinking back to 11 August 2011)


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> awesome beard, bro. but flowers are too mainstream. better have weeds.



Beard of Weeds sounds like a hipster band name...


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I could not tell you with any certainty where they came from. Do you have a theory that you'd like to share? Perhaps you object to the fruit trees not having been propagated from pippin pips on Pop's own plots?


haha, well obviously that would be daft considering the timescale of the project, but I was struck by the irony that the complex formerly known
as "grow" was shipping in plants when they have a greenhouse on site which is being used for seating for diners instead of propogation........


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> haha, well obviously that would be daft considering the timescale of the project, but I was struck by the irony that the complex formerly known
> as "grow" was shipping in plants when they have a greenhouse on site which is being used for seating for diners instead of propogation........


It's a drinking greenhouse.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> that's a bad idea why?  In whose interests is the churn caused by profit taking? The current arrangement leads to massive concentration of wealth- it's time to consider how to spread that more evenly.  Don't forget that the market always adapts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't agree that a single home should be whacked, except on death.

But multiple owners definitely get far too easy a deal.

Even the Economist is now arguing that landlords should not be able to claim mortgage interest relief, which is what makes BTL so lucrative.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> awesome beard, bro. but flowers are too mainstream. better have weeds.


I actually found a dapper dude with a waxed moustache and beard picking weeds from the gutter in our street 
when I asked him why he said they were going to be planted in his terrarium


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Today’s protests are for the most part the whining of the squeezed middle, the voice of yuppie entitlement dismayed that they cannot keep pace on the hedonic treadmill.


Or the voice of council/social housing tenants battling to save their homes. Perhaps he missed all the banners at Reclaim Brixton. Perhaps he missed the people marching in from those estates. Perhaps he missed the whole point of the fucking protest.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I can't agree that a single home should be whacked, except on death.


no time for this now, unfortunately, but tell that to the social tenants I mentioned above, who've paid for their home over and again but are getting ever further marginalised by ever richer owner occupiers.  Explain to them why the tax structure should be stacked in favour of those who already have.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> It's a drinking greenhouse.



They had put lots of planters in there yesterday with lots of sprouting bulb and green stuff in them....


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> haha, well obviously that would be daft considering the timescale of the project, but I was struck by the irony that the complex formerly known
> as "grow" was shipping in plants when they have a greenhouse on site which is being used for seating for diners instead of propogation........


So basically you *are* saying they should have grown it all from seeds? 

The poly tunnel is largely as Grow proposed it in their original presentation and subsequent planning proposal, laid mostly to seating with planters along the edges. Apart from being up one level, how do you feel it differs? Or are you saying that the original idea was similarly flawed for this reason?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 11, 2015)

Spiked, really? I don't even need to read that to guess what it says - anyone complaining is really middle class (in a different, much worse way to the writers on Spiked obviously). What a _real _left winger would be advocating is a pure free market solution.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> no time for this now, unfortunately, but tell that to the social tenants I mentioned above, who've paid for their home over and again but are getting ever further marginalised by ever richer owner occupiers.  Explain to them why the tax structure should be stacked in favour of those who already have.



I completely understand that. But single home owners don't get mortgage interest tax relief. I'd argue for a mansion tax or rebanding.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I can't agree that a single home should be whacked, except on death.
> 
> But multiple owners definitely get far too easy a deal.
> 
> Even the Economist is now arguing that landlords should not be able to claim mortgage interest relief, which is what makes BTL so lucrative.


I think BTL should either be allowed, or not allowed. If it *is* allowed, I don't see the argument for taxing it in a different way to any other business in which the interest on business loans are deductible against tax. 

If BTL is the root of all problems then it should simply not be allowed, rather than made exclusively available to those who have the cash to buy property outright (by penalising anyone requiring finance).


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I completely understand that. But single home owners don't get mortgage interest tax relief. I'd argue for a mansion tax or rebanding.


No they don't. But they get 100% capital gains relief. BTL pay about 30% on capital profit.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think BTL should either be allowed, or not allowed. If it *is* allowed, I don't see the argument for taxing it in a different way to any other business in which the interest on business loans are deductible against tax.
> 
> If BTL is the root of all problems then it should simply not be allowed, rather than made exclusively available to those who have the cash to buy property outright (by penalising anyone requiring finance).



Because BTL is not really a business. It's speculation, underpinned by a housing crisis and lax tax. 

It channels lending into unproductive assets, rather than businesses making things, providing services, creating jobs. 

Those who buy outright are paying more (some) tax because they can't put rent against mortgage interest.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

So who thinks the Collective are are perfectly suited partners for this green oasis community development?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> No they don't. But they get 100% capital gains relief. BTL pay about 30% on capital profit.



Stamp duty is effectively a disposal tax.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> So who thinks the Collective are are perfectly suited partners for this green oasis community development?



I'd like to know what they say or are planning before making up my mind. 

But you raise a very good question.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I'd like to know what they say or are planning before making up my mind.
> 
> But you raise a very good question.


They've published an awful lot about themselves already on their website. I think there's enough there to give you a very good idea of what kind of company they are.

Their mission statement is: "We live to redefine the world for the young, the ambitious and the curious" and they "pride themselves on their entrepreneurial spirit, their hunger to succeed and the ability to execute."

Here's their "green oasis" plans for Pop: https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/pop-brixton--think-outside-the-box
Here's a big interview with their multi millionaire mainman (published on their own site): https://www.thecollective.co.uk/the-collectivist/reza-merchant--strength-in-numbers

Here's their website: https://www.thecollective.co.uk/about


----------



## Belushi (Jun 11, 2015)

I looked at the Collective website and its all just twat speak for charging a grand a month for a room in a shared house.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> They've published an awful lot about themselves already on their website. I think there's enough there to give you a very good idea of what kind of company they are.
> 
> Their mission statement is: "We live to redefine the world for the young, the ambitious and the curious" and they "pride themselves on their entrepreneurial spirit, their hunger to succeed and the ability to execute."






			
				Collective said:
			
		

> As a property development and management company we build great places to live, work and play.
> 
> At the heart of our business is our unique Shared Living product – a new form of rental accommodation targeted at ambitious young professionals looking for a genuinely affordable, fantastically designed and hassle-free place to live in central London.
> 
> If we are not playing we are working, so the workspace we develop is underpinned by the same logic driving us to create affordable and flexible workspace for individuals with brilliant ideas.


Ugh.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 11, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I looked at the Collective website and its all just twat speak for charging a grand a month for a room in a shared house.



Sounds like posh halls of residence to me.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 11, 2015)

maybe you missed this yesterday? 


Rushy said:


> So basically you *are* saying they should have grown it all from seeds?
> 
> The poly tunnel is largely as Grow proposed it in their original presentation and subsequent planning proposal, laid mostly to seating with planters along the edges. Apart from being up one level, how do you feel it differs? Or are you saying that the original idea was similarly flawed for this reason?





ddraig said:


> have you got shares in this venture?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Stamp duty is effectively a disposal tax.


No one is exempt from stamp duty.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Sounds like posh halls of residence to me.


That's exactly what I thought. There is a video on the Estates Gazette website in which one of their writers stays in the smallest £500pcm room. It's not exactly luxurious.

I'm not gone on the execution, as far as I could see from the video. That said, I don't think posh halls of residence is a bad concept per se for young single folk moving to London.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

I've had a good look at their site. 

But I don't understand what they are doing at Pop.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I'd like to know what they say or are planning before making up my mind.
> 
> But you raise a very good question.


Investing in and delivering Pop with CAT, according to the Pop site.
I take this to mean that they are either providing cash and/or funding/projectmanaging the building work?


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:
			
		

> I completely understand that. But single home owners don't get mortgage interest tax relief. I'd argue for a mansion tax or rebanding.



Mortgage tax relief was always wrong. Why should the poorest subside the housing costs of those richer than themselves?

Rebranding should be done annually, but that taxes everyone, tenants and owners alike, from their income. It does not address the unearned capita
l gain.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 11, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I looked at the Collective website and its all just twat speak for charging a grand a month for a room in a shared house.


love it.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> Mortgage tax relief was always wrong. Why should the poorest subside the housing costs of those richer than themselves?
> 
> Rebranding should be done annually, but that taxes everyone, tenants and owners alike, from their income. It does not address the unearned capita
> l gain.



As I said before, the unearned capital gain can be dealt with by (unavoidable) inheritance tax.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Investing in and delivering Pop with CAT, according to the Pop site.
> I take this to mean that they are either providing cash and/or funding/projectmanaging the building work?


So what do you think of the company? Do you think they're the ideal kind of partner for such a green oasis community project? Or do you think that maybe Lambeth should be robustly challenged on their policy of bringing in such uber capitalist property developer outsiders for what is supposed to be a local project?

Any opinions on the matter?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> So what do you think of the company? Do you think they're the ideal kind of partner for such a green oasis community project? Or do you think that maybe Lambeth should be robustly challenged on their policy of bringing in such uber capitalist property developer outsiders for what is supposed to be a local project?
> 
> Any opinions on the matter?



Need to know what these people are contributing/taking first.

PS: Nice use of adjectives and adverbs


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> As I said before, the unearned capital gain can be dealt with by (unavoidable) inheritance tax.


Much as the idea is unpopular amongst those wanting to"provide for their kids", unavoidable inheritance tax has to be the way forward. Rather than taxing the estate, all individual recipients should have an allowance above which they are taxed. Get rid of trusts.


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Need to know what these people are contributing/taking first.


 Agreed. In any case, challenging Lambeth would make a refreshing change from attempting to demonise the project itself from every conceivable angle even though none of us know yet what the finished product will be like.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Need to know what these people are contributing/taking first.
> 
> PS: Nice use of adjectives and adverbs


Regardless of what they're offering financially, I think the question is valid: do you think this type of non-local property developer  is appropriate for a 'community based' venture in Brixton?


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

T & P said:


> Agreed. In any case, challenging Lambeth would make a refreshing change from attempting to demonise the project itself from every conceivable angle even though none of us know yet what the finished product will be like.


Well, we know what it's not going to be given that the EBS stop found themselves being pushed out, and we know that is looks very different to the original plans.  What's your opinion of The Collective's involvement?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Regardless of what they're offering financially, I think the question is valid: do you think this type of non-local property developer  is appropriate for a 'community based' venture in Brixton?



I see your point. So you'd rather it were a more local property developer?


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I see your point. So you'd rather it were a more local property developer?


I'd rather it was someone more local, more environmentally-minded, more community focussed, less uber-capitalistic and less triumphant about making their millions by squeezing people into near-impossibly small spaces. I'd also prefer someone whose mission statement wasn't solely confined to the "young, the ambitious and the curious."

What's your opinion?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 11, 2015)

third time asking
Rushy 
maybe you missed this yesterday? and earlier 


Rushy said:


> So basically you *are* saying they should have grown it all from seeds?
> 
> The poly tunnel is largely as Grow proposed it in their original presentation and subsequent planning proposal, laid mostly to seating with planters along the edges. Apart from being up one level, how do you feel it differs? Or are you saying that the original idea was similarly flawed for this reason?





ddraig said:


> have you got shares in this venture?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> I'd rather it was someone more local, more environmentally-minded, more community focussed, less uber-capitalistic and less triumphant about making their millions by squeezing people into near-impossibly small spaces. I'd also prefer someone whose mission statement wasn't solely confined to the "young, the ambitious and the curious."
> 
> What's your opinion?


It's hard to have a strong opinion without really knowing many details about their involvement.

I believe they are probably project managing the build. If that is the case and they have the experience to get it done to brief, on time and on budget, without throwing all the funds away on unanticipated costs then that would be great.


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, we know what it's not going to be given that the EBS stop found themselves being pushed out, and we know that is looks very different to the original plans.  What's your opinion of The Collective's involvement?


I answered that in my post you quoted. I was agreeing with leanderman that we to know what these people are contributing and how exactly they are involved first. The involvement of venture capitalists in projects is not something I cherish, but also not sufficient in itself for me to shun a given project, so long as the project itself has merit.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 11, 2015)

i'll take it as a yes then!


----------



## boohoo (Jun 11, 2015)

ddraig said:


> third time asking
> Rushy
> maybe you missed this yesterday? and earlier



maybe he has you on ignore.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The smear I was referring to was the statement people have been making about security being there to 'keep out the oiks' or to ensure 'only the right kind of people are allowed in' Which is a totally ridiculous point.



Have you ever worked for a legitimate event or site security company? I have, and the above is pretty much the job description, along with policing the behaviour of the people who *are* allowed in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> from said article.
> 
> "The campaigns to stop the gentrification of Hackney and Brixton today are largely led by the gentrifiers of the preceding decade. One cause célèbre of #ReclaimBrixton are the murals painted by artists on the threatened Brixton arches, including an ethereal dreadlocked rasta by the Norwegian artist Zina. In the street party that followed, the signifiers were multicultural, but the sociology was decidedly middle class. One tweeter admitted: ‘Not sure where I stand on #ReclaimBrixton. I was a mid-90s gentrifier; I’d happily smash Foxton’s window. Might do next week, for lolz.’
> 
> ...



Heartfield is a good journalist.
By this I *don't* mean that he's written a good piece, but rather that he's assembled a story from a number of different sources. Unfortunately, his sources seem to entirely be sources that support his thesis, and none that contradict.
He's selling a viewpoint, and it's not a viewpoint for which he's provided much *substantive*support - citing some twatter off of twitter, and dropping Ruth Glass's name doesn't help make a good article, IMO.


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2015)

I very much doubt it is policy everywhere where security guards are to be found; in fact, I'm pretty certain it is not. Therefore it seems little more than baseless speculation to claim that Pop Brixton has a policy of keeping certain social classes out and is employing security guards to implement such policy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> maybe our whole economy is based on this bubble and to pop it would mean the arse falls out of the whole economy?



The economy isn't "based on" the property price inflation bubble, but it's certainly nourished by it to some extent.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

T & P said:


> I very much doubt it is policy everywhere where security guards are to be found; in fact, I'm pretty certain it is not.



Have *you* ever worked for a security company?

Why do sites retain static security guards? Why do venues retain bouncers/"door personnel"?
To separate those who are wanted from those who aren't wanted, and to police behaviour on-site, exactly as I said. Why else do you think they retain them - decorative effect?



> Therefore it seems little more than baseless speculation to claim that Pop Brixton has a policy of keeping certain social classes out and is employing security guards to implement such policy.



Only if you ignore the nature of "employing security guards" in the first place.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 11, 2015)

ddraig said:


> third time asking





ddraig said:


> have you got shares in this venture?


After 38 pages, have you really not grasped the ownership model?

The clueless leading the clueless .... you're straight into the U75 Brains Trust.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 11, 2015)

what is the "ownership model"?
it is a question that they can answer, "Yes/No/I Wish/Not in the ownership model" then, if they so choose


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 11, 2015)

ddraig said:


> what is the "ownership model"?
> it is a question that they can answer, "Yes/No/I Wish/Not in the ownership model" then, if they so choose


For the second time of asking, do you really not understand the ownership model at popBrixton?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 11, 2015)

clearly not! does it involve people not being able to have shares by any chance?


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have *you* ever worked for a security company?
> 
> Why do sites retain static security guards? Why do venues retain bouncers/"door personnel"?
> To separate those who are wanted from those who aren't wanted, and to police behaviour on-site, exactly as I said. Why else do you think they retain them - decorative effect?
> ...


So it would be fair in your view to state that, say, The Dog Star is socially discriminatory and has a policy in place to keep oiks out?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 11, 2015)

Just a reminder. I can't go - but would love to know what is said
*CONTESTED SPACE*
11 JUNE19:00 - 20:30
ORGANIZED BY: CARL TURNER ARCHITECTS

POP BRIXTON
53 BRIXTON STATION ROAD
SW9 8PQ

How can we make sure that we are improving a community through our work?

Join Adam Brown (Landolt + Brown) and Carl Turner (Carl Turner Architects)  for a hour debate followed by 20 minutes Q&A where they try to address the topic of gentrification, and present selected projects in the areas of Brixton, Peckham and Tottenham.

Speakers:
Carl Turner, Carl Turner Architects
Adam Brow, Landolt + Brown
Talk begins at 7:30. The talk will be held in the polytunnel


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 11, 2015)

T & P said:


> So it would be fair in your view to state that, say, The Dog Star is socially discriminatory and has a policy in place to keep oiks out?


I thought the idea was to keep the oiks in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

T & P said:


> So it would be fair in your view to state that, say, The Dog Star is socially discriminatory and has a policy in place to keep oiks out?



You're (very clumsily) attempting to put words in my mouth. Don't.

As I said, anywhere that retains security, retains security for a reason. That reason -put simply enough so that *you* won't have a hard time understanding - is to let and keep the "right" people in; keep the "wrong" people out, and police the behaviour of the right people. Whether that "rightness" boils down to social class, clothing style, spending ability, skin colour or political persuasion will vary from venue to venue. In a venue that's pushing a PR image of being new, edgy and "happening", exclusion of people in trainers and/or sportswear, for example, isn't controversial. Why you think that a policy of exclusion based on *perceptions* of what might or might not reflect well on a venue is controversial, I don't know. It's standard.


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're (very clumsily) attempting to put words in my mouth. Don't.
> 
> As I said, anywhere that retains security, retains security for a reason. That reason -put simply enough so that *you* won't have a hard time understanding - is to let and keep the "right" people in; keep the "wrong" people out, and police the behaviour of the right people. Whether that "rightness" boils down to social class, clothing style, spending ability, skin colour or political persuasion will vary from venue to venue. In a venue that's pushing a PR image of being new, edgy and "happening", exclusion of people in trainers and/or sportswear, for example, isn't controversial. Why you think that a policy of exclusion based on *perceptions* of what might or might not reflect well on a venue is controversial, I don't know. It's standard.


So if in your opinion it varies from venue to venue, surely it is still completely baseless and wrong to speculate on any door policy Pop Brixton might or might not have, since we do not have (to the best of my knowledge) any evidence to suggest what it might be, or if it even exists?

And do kindly try to turn down a bit your condescending tone, if you will.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Just a reminder. I can't go - but would love to know what is said
> *CONTESTED SPACE*
> 11 JUNE19:00 - 20:30
> ORGANIZED BY: CARL TURNER ARCHITECTS
> ...


Nicely timed to clash with a big gig that is trying to help people deal with the effects of gentrification.


----------



## Winot (Jun 11, 2015)

ddraig said:


> third time asking
> Rushy
> maybe you missed this yesterday? and earlier



Perhaps he has you on ignore?m

ETA I see boohoo bear me to it.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

T & P said:


> I very much doubt it is policy everywhere where security guards are to be found; in fact, I'm pretty certain it is not. Therefore it seems little more than baseless speculation to claim that Pop Brixton has a policy of keeping certain social classes out and is employing security guards to implement such policy.


You do understand that 'oiks' can transcend class, yes? It is an "an uncouth or obnoxious person." And yes, I imagine that it's in the remit of most security guard's jobs to keep those people from trendy establishments. 

Apart from that, I wasn't even being serious.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It's hard to have a strong opinion without really knowing many details about their involvement.
> 
> I believe they are probably project managing the build. If that is the case and they have the experience to get it done to brief, on time and on budget, without throwing all the funds away on unanticipated costs then that would be great.


So you approve of such a company getting involved? Thanks. That tells me a lot.


----------



## Winot (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, we know what it's not going to be *given that the EBS stop found themselves being pushed out*, and we know that is looks very different to the original plans.  What's your opinion of The Collective's involvement?



Were they definitely pushed out? Have new facts emerged since this post?



Tricky Skills said:


> All change!
> 
> This is actually pretty shoddy. There has been a 'difference in the style of management' between Carl Turner Architects and the Edible Bus Stop folk. *It has led to the EBS walking away.* Plans for Grow Brixton have now moved down to Loughborough Junction.
> 
> ...


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> So basically you *are* saying they should have grown it *all *from seeds?


No, as I said in my other post it would not be practical to grow trees or large plants from seed in the timespan, but a polytunnel is normally associated with growing things not wining and dining
growing plants from seed fits with the idea of a "self sufficient community" and you could get a crop of lettuce tomatoes etc from seed in a polytunnel but I think it has become more of a a conservatory.



Rushy said:


> The poly tunnel is largely as Grow proposed it in their original presentation and subsequent planning proposal, laid mostly to seating with planters along the edges. Apart from being up one level, how do you feel it differs? Or are you saying that the original idea was similarly flawed for this reason?


The polytunnnel idea has always been a bit vague the first planning application doesnt even mention it
_"14/03314/RG4 | Temporary use of site for a period up to five years for the Grow:Brixton project. Installation of re-purposed shipping containers (up to a maximum of four in height) to provide studios, live/work spaces, workspaces, retail units, workshops, bar/cafe, performance space and green spaces. | Site Of Former Ice Rink 49 Brixton Station Road London SW9 8PQ			_
and when it does appear the pic doesnt make it look like a dining room............






it's a bit of a leap from what we see above to a space with a hundred seats for the fish and chip shop
_"[Hook]..... has room for 18 covers inside and 100 in a greenhouse "_
_https://www.thecaterer.com/articles/358219/fish-restaurant-hook-to-open-in-pop-brixton_
maybe moving it upstairs was done to make it's new use more practical/aesthetic
but if it had been in the original " green space" proposal I would imagine me and a few others would have raised an eyebrow


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> So you approve of such a company getting involved? Thanks. That tells me a lot.



Are you 12 years old?


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It's hard to have a strong opinion without really knowing many details about their involvement.
> 
> I believe they are probably project managing the build. If that is the case and they have the experience to get it done to brief, on time and on budget, without throwing all the funds away on unanticipated costs then that would be great.



In actual fact they are the main investors along with CTA

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ca77c866-de06-11e4-ba43-00144feab7de.html#axzz3clQvcg00


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're (very clumsily) attempting to put words in my mouth. Don't.
> 
> As I said, anywhere that retains security, retains security for a reason. That reason -put simply enough so that *you* won't have a hard time understanding - is to let and keep the "right" people in; keep the "wrong" people out, and police the behaviour of the right people. Whether that "rightness" boils down to social class, clothing style, spending ability, skin colour or political persuasion will vary from venue to venue. In a venue that's pushing a PR image of being new, edgy and "happening", exclusion of people in trainers and/or sportswear, for example, isn't controversial. Why you think that a policy of exclusion based on *perceptions* of what might or might not reflect well on a venue is controversial, I don't know. It's standard.



The only people I've seen barred entry from anywhere have been the incredibly pissed - never based on "social class, clothing style, spending ability, skin colour or political persuasion"


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The only people I've seen barred entry from anywhere have been the incredibly pissed - never based on "social class, clothing style, spending ability, skin colour or political persuasion"



Barred maybe, but refused entry?

Plenty of venues have a no trainer/no sportswear/workwear rule...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 11, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Barred maybe, but refused entry?
> 
> Plenty of venues have a no trainer/no sportswear/workwear rule...



(((All the hordes of people turned away from the White Hart)))


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 11, 2015)

Yeah I meant refused entry but said barred. Actually, what's the difference, means the same thing to me


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> (((All the hordes of people turned away from the White Hart)))



I think they've relaxed the trainer rule, but sadly the damage was done, the no standing rule spread quickly...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Yeah I meant refused entry but said barred. Actually, what's the difference, means the same thing to me



Not really, if you go get changed you can come in....barred is barred, no entry, full stop....


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 11, 2015)

I suppose so, but if you sober up the barring is also temporary. Semantics really


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I suppose so, but if you sober up the barring is also temporary. Semantics really



depends how nawty you got...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 11, 2015)

Security is a bit much....


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> No, as I said in my other post it would not be practical to grow trees or large plants from seed in the timespan, but a polytunnel is normally associated with growing things not wining and dining
> growing plants from seed fits with the idea of a "self sufficient community" and you could get a crop of lettuce tomatoes etc from seed in a polytunnel but I think it has become more of a a conservatory.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you've understood the drawings,  to be honest. The poly tunnel dining area is pretty much unchanged.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 11, 2015)

I presumed the security is to keep out the beggers, and the people in the area who's mental illness can present quite in-your-face, like bikini-lady. If so, it's a shit policy in my opinion - if it's public land, let them wander in, especially when there's plenty of rich people with tonnes of change. But it doesn't surprise me, sadly lots of your average bods view those people as a nuisance and want a more sanitised experience.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> In actual fact they are the main investors along with CTA
> 
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ca77c866-de06-11e4-ba43-00144feab7de.html#axzz3clQvcg00
> 
> View attachment 72610


We established a few pages ago that they put money in.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I don't think you've understood the drawings,  to be honest. The poly tunnel dining area is pretty much unchanged.





Rushy said:


> We established a few pages ago that they put money in.



I'm putting you on ignore because you do not respect the opinions of others  and are quite patronising with it


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I'm putting you on ignore because you do not respect the opinions of others  and are quite patronising with it


Thank fuck.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I'm putting you on ignore because you do not respect the opinions of others  and are quite patronising with it


This  place is hysterical.

I've never seen so many abusive, ill-educated, 20-years lost, buffoons scramble for so much imagined moral high ground.

Have a flounce love, you'll feel so much better.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Thank fuck.



I lied 



Up the junction said:


> This  place is hysterical.
> 
> I've never seen so many abusive, ill-educated, 20-years lost, buffoons scramble for so much imagined moral high ground.
> 
> Have a flounce love, you'll feel so much better.



WAW..............lol


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 11, 2015)

bless


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I lied


Nothing new there.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Nothing new there.


wtf is that meant to mean ?


----------



## han (Jun 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Nicely timed to clash with a big gig that is trying to help people deal with the effects of gentrification.


Hm  it's almost as if they don't want any dissenters turning up!


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> wtf is that meant to mean ?


That you are slippery.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> That you are slippery.


Um.......please do expand, PM if you feel it's appropriate


----------



## Rushy (Jun 11, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Um.......please do expand, PM if you feel it's appropriate


You may be thinking about the wrong type of slippery.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I can't agree that a single home should be whacked, except on death.
> 
> But multiple owners definitely get far too easy a deal.
> 
> Even the Economist is now arguing that landlords should not be able to claim mortgage interest relief, which is what makes BTL so lucrative.


Depends on the mortgage rate. Anyone on a low standard variable rate is probably not claiming a huge amount. And when set against the income if the rent is large, they could be facing a large tax bill.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 11, 2015)

Back to Pop - my initial impression were it was just an extension of the village - eateries and bars because that is where the money is at. The last thing I want to see if I'm going for a bite to eat is some surly bouncer eyeing you up (first thing you see when you enter is some surly bouncer, very welcoming), so Pop, it's a big no thanks.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> As I said before, the unearned capital gain can be dealt with by (unavoidable) inheritance tax.


Nonsense.  Of course it's not unavoidable.  Leaving aside trusts and whatever else the rich use, the simplest way to avoid paying inheritance tax is to spend the dosh.  

It's a great scheme, though, for the self-serving wealthy.  I'm surprised they- or the politicians that represent them- haven't extended it to all capital gains and income.... the state can tax only what's leftover after all lifestyle spending, all holidays, fast cars, luxuries and everything else. 

 Unearned property gains should be taxed the same as any other capital gain.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> Nonsense.  Of course it's not unavoidable.  Leaving aside trusts and whatever else the rich use, the simplest way to avoid paying inheritance tax is to spend the dosh.
> 
> It's a great scheme, though, for the self-serving wealthy.  I'm surprised they- or the politicians that represent them- haven't extended it to all capital gains and income.... the state can tax only what's leftover after all lifestyle spending, all holidays, fast cars, luxuries and everything else.
> 
> Unearned property gains should be taxed the same as any other capital gain.



Some of your thoughts I don't particularly disagree with, but clearly if they were implemented there would be a tory landslide victory next day. I'm just being realistic, having worked with and around right wing leaning people (working class and otherwise).


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> Nonsense.  Of course it's not unavoidable.  Leaving aside trusts and whatever else the rich use.



Which was exactly my point. IHT needs to be made unavoidable

I don't know why you are trying to manufacture a disagreement when we agree with each other.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Depends on the mortgage rate. Anyone on a low standard variable rate is probably not claiming a huge amount. And when set against the income if the rent is large, they could be facing a large tax bill.



BTL rates are generally higher than regular mortgages.

But if the landlord is coining it, they'll buy another property, move mortgages around, take rent in cash etc to minimise the tax bill.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Back to Pop - my initial impression were it was just an extension of the village - eateries and bars because that is where the money is at. The last thing I want to see if I'm going for a bite to eat is some surly bouncer eyeing you up (first thing you see when you enter is some surly bouncer, very welcoming), so Pop, it's a big no thanks.



The bouncer today was quite charming, inobtrusive and, contrary to our worst imaginings, not much interested in who come in or out.

He did have something to do though when a guy kicked off about the pizza shop man using a knife to cut up some wood.

The guy complained pizza man should not have a knife because, were pizza man black and not white, he would have been arrested for having a blade.

The guy then reported pizza man to what he thought was a policeman but who was, in fact, a firefighter on an inspection.

And then complained to the site manager, even more vociferously.

Bouncer handled it well.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Some of your thoughts I don't particularly disagree with, but clearly if they were implemented there would be a tory landslide victory next day. I'm just being realistic, having worked with and around right wing leaning people (working class and otherwise).


yes. 

Because there's this ridiculous belief in trickledown, so even though homeowners in a far flung, unpopular, northern industrial town stand to make a tiny profit (which would be under any threshold) they'll vote for the rights of gentrifiers in Brixton to trouser a fortune for doing nothing whatsoever. Irrespective of widening wealth gaps and whether their own children stand any chance of being able to move to streets-paved-with-gold London.

Yes, what you say is true, and while I can bleat about it on a forum that's about as effective as any other bleating about gentrification.


----------



## newbie (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Which was exactly my point. IHT needs to be made unavoidable
> 
> I don't know why you are trying to manufacture a disagreement when we agree with each other.


what?  Did you misunderstand my point?  How do you tax people on money they've spent? 

You appear to be suggesting that inheritance tax takes care of all the unearned capital gains from property.  It doesn't, in any way, shape or form.  It merely rolls up an end of life accumulation.  Capital gains from property sales should be taxed as and when they arise as with any other capital gain.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2015)

newbie said:


> what?  Did you misunderstand my point?  How do you tax people on money they've spent?
> 
> You appear to be suggesting that inheritance tax takes care of all the unearned capital gains from property.  It doesn't, in any way, shape or form.  It merely rolls up an end of life accumulation.  Capital gains from property sales should be taxed as and when they arise as with any other capital gain.



On second homes, CGT and end of mortgage relief etc

On sole home sales,  5pc stamp*

On death 40 pc (unavoidable) IHT on all of it

*To apply CGT on primary sales would be crazy for many reasons, not least that it would stop people moving house and in, any case, nullify the eventual IHT take.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 11, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I presumed the security is to keep out the beggers, and the people in the area who's mental illness can present quite in-your-face, like bikini-lady. If so, it's a shit policy in my opinion - if it's public land, let them wander in, especially when there's plenty of rich people with tonnes of change. But it doesn't surprise me, sadly lots of your average bods view those people as a nuisance and want a more sanitised experience.


I'm curious to know who you think ultmately pays for the security?

And I'm sure you understand that if it were a 'public space' (which it obv. isn't), people have a right of access.


----------



## shifting gears (Jun 11, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> This  place is hysterical.
> 
> I've never seen so many abusive, ill-educated, 20-years lost, buffoons scramble for so much imagined moral high ground.
> 
> Have a flounce love, you'll feel so much better.



You're hysterical.

You're a returning poster, you're a patronising, mysogynistic turd, and to top it all, you've just outed yourself as an out and out Tory: no one, but no one else could've used the terminology you just did without being a fully paid up member of the scum. 

You're not fooling anyone boss - and keep the laughs coming. 

Fancy a pint sometime? I'm in the Beehive right now ?

Kiss


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

T & P said:


> So if in your opinion it varies from venue to venue, surely it is still completely baseless and wrong to speculate on any door policy Pop Brixton might or might not have, since we do not have (to the best of my knowledge) any evidence to suggest what it might be, or if it even exists?



I'm making presumptions based on experience of retail, venue and factory/LT-storage security, and on over a decade's academic study of criminology. You're making presumptions based on what you *believe* to be or not be "the case".



> And do kindly try to turn down a bit your condescending tone, if you will.



I will, if you raise your game out of the _kindergarten_.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The only people I've seen barred entry from anywhere have been the incredibly pissed - never based on "social class, clothing style, spending ability, skin colour or political persuasion"



Then think yourself lucky. In the 35 years of my adulthood I've seen people barred entry or ejected from places for loads of reasons. The most memorable are: wearing a shellsuit; wearing trainers; wearing jeans; being black; being "Asian"; being "common"; being a "leftie" (i.e. wearing a small "support the miners" badge); being a "soul-boy"; being a "headbanger" (heavy metal fan) and even, hardly creditable, "looking skint".
And that's just in places where I've been/queued up at.  That doesn't include stuff I've heard used while *working* with security.


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm making presumptions based on experience of retail, venue and factory/LT-storage security, and on over a decade's academic study of criminology. You're making presumptions based on what you *believe* to be or not be "the case".


 All that knowledge is worth sweet FA when it comes to guessing a *specific* venture's door policy, unless you have any evidence of what those in charge of It have in mind. One could also add that the original claim was not made by you but by someone presumably lacking your impressive inside knowledge of the industry.

But in any case Editor has already said the comment was made in jest, so I see little point in continuing to discuss the issue AFAIAC, certainly within this thread.



> I will, if you raise your game out of the _kindergarten_.


As you wish, o Great One. I'll try to be on message from now on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2015)

T & P said:


> All that knowledge is worth sweet FA when it comes to guessing a *specific* venture's door policy, unless you have any evidence of what those in charge of It have in mind.



It wasn't me who detoured into what security personnel _per se_, do or might do.



> One could also add that the original claim was not made by you but by someone presumably lacking your impressive inside knowledge of the industry.



My inside knowledge isn't "impressive". it is what it is - inside knowledge



> But in any case Editor has already said the comment was made in jest, so I see little point in continuing to discuss the issue AFAIAC, certainly within this thread.
> 
> 
> As you wish, o Great One. I'll try to be on message from now on.



I'm not asking you to be "on-message", I'm asking for you to bear in mind that your opinion, unless it's informed, may be irrelevant, except insofar as it makes you feel good for airing it.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> BTL rates are generally higher than regular mortgages.
> 
> But if the landlord is coining it, they'll buy another property, move mortgages around, take rent in cash etc to minimise the tax bill.


It does depend on the mortgage, my one is an old one that flipped onto svr a few years back, I had to move for work so I rent out the property while I work away.

I can well believe that a new BTL mortgage now would have a high interest rate. 

I am in no way defending landlords with a BTL empire.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Then think yourself lucky. In the 35 years of my adulthood I've seen people barred entry or ejected from places for loads of reasons. The most memorable are: wearing a shellsuit; wearing trainers; wearing jeans; being black; being "Asian"; being "common"; being a "leftie" (i.e. wearing a small "support the miners" badge); being a "soul-boy"; being a "headbanger" (heavy metal fan) and even, hardly creditable, "looking skint".
> And that's just in places where I've been/queued up at.  That doesn't include stuff I've heard used while *working* with security.



Was it a double shell suit? In which case, fair enough


----------



## shifting gears (Jun 11, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Was it a double shell suit? In which case, fair enough



Keep em coming, fuckwit


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not asking you to be "on-message", I'm asking for you to bear in mind that your opinion, unless it's informed, may be irrelevant, except insofar as it makes you feel good for airing it.


Nah, you're not asking anything of the sort. You're being patronising and dismissive, as you tend to do with depressing regularity to anyone who disagrees with you and dares to retort for for more than two or three posts on the subject in question.

I do appreciate your willingness to explain things in terms 'even I can understand' though. It is of much help, as is the italics and bold text reinforcing.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 11, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> Keep em coming, fuckwit



Eh?


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 13, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Eh?


]
People told you to to fuck off, I'm telling to fuck off.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 13, 2015)

Not sure if it's of interest, but seeing as no-one (from this Urban thread) went to Carl Turner's Pop Brixton talk on Contested Space at the London Festival of Architecture (including me as I had a prior engagement) here is a Ph D Thesis I found on the web about contested space in Brixton 1981-2009.

The main argument surrounds the gradual Stalinisation of the Tate Library Gardens (now Windrush Square).

Should be right up our street I think (count me in)
Health warning: document is 377 pages!

https://pure.royalholloway.ac.uk/portal/files/23310523/Whole_thesis_9_.pdf


----------



## Rushy (Jun 13, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Not sure if it's of interest, but seeing as no-one (from this Urban thread) went to Carl Turner's Pop Brixton talk on Contested Space at the London Festival of Architecture (including me as I had a prior engagement) here is a Ph D Thesis I found on the web about contested space in Brixton 1981-2009.
> 
> The main argument surrounds the gradual Stalinisation of the Tate Library Gardens (now Windrush Square).
> 
> ...


I went. It was pretty well attended but I couldn't hear very well at all and, having bumped into an old mate earlier and shared a few ales, lost concentration I'm afraid. Gramsci was there, and in a far more respectable condition to be able to listen properly.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 13, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Not sure if it's of interest, but seeing as no-one (from this Urban thread) went to Carl Turner's Pop Brixton talk on Contested Space at the London Festival of Architecture



I did go. Heard the other architect give his talk. Will post up later. 

Met Rushy and we were next to a crate of free New Zealand wine. With inevitable results.


----------



## superfly101 (Jun 13, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Met Rushy and we were next to a crate of free New Zealand wine. With inevitable results.



Was that from the girl who imports? More importantly was the wine any good?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 13, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Was that from the girl who imports? More importantly was the wine any good?


Don't ask me. I lived through my very own sequel of The Hangover on Thursday.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 14, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Was that from the girl who imports? More importantly was the wine any good?



Yes.

The red went down well.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Not sure if it's of interest, but seeing as no-one (from this Urban thread) went to Carl Turner's Pop Brixton talk on Contested Space at the London Festival of Architecture (including me as I had a prior engagement)



Well I went. It was in the polytunnel. Unfortunately only in one corner of it. Difficult to hear above all the noise in background. 

As me and Rushy were downing the free vino I did not get to hear Turner. But went up to the front to listen to what John Adam Brown of Landolt and Brown had to say. 

He gave a run down of the issues of regeneration leading to gentrification of areas. Said that the word gentrification was a catch all word. Impacts on areas is not all the same. He looked at what has happened to an area of south London where there has been partial gentrification. Not everyone has been pushed by changes. Second he took Shoreditch as an example of a total "gentrification". The existing working class community losing the area. This was also down to the loss of local employment in light industry. 

The loss of local working class jobs is something he touched on when he talked about his work in Tottenham on a train station. 

Made me think that one of the issues for London is the de industrialization of the City since the post war period. Lots of Council housing built but over the years people lost the local employment. This imo was not inevitable. Germany has a lot of medium sized light industrial business for example. It was de industrialising London and turning it into a financial centre that is what happened starting with Thatcher. 

In Tottenham the changes are coming quicker than Brixton. He looked at the area closely when he was working on the station. There is a of of obvious poverty. Property developers are moving in and want the area cleaned up. So when he designed the station he tried to make it have some relevence to the history of the area. Which was industrial. The outside of the building was made to show the history of industry that has now all but gone. He said one resident told him its the first time a new building has acknowledged the existing long standing working class community there. The pressure from developers is to obliterate that history and start from year zero so to speak. 

( He was very proud of this project. Afterwards I thought its quite sad really. The best he could do was to historicise the old working class community as a heritage project. )

He also described his work in Peckham Rye. His practise were brought in after another scheme was dropped by Council after a lot of local opposition by residents groups. This was corroborated by some representative of Peckham residents at the event. 

In Peckham his practise did a study of the area and how it worked as a space, economically and socially. They found that different communities did not mix. There was longstanding Afro Carribean small business and newer trendy mainly white people who used the newer bars etc in Peckham. 

He also found it was not only an issue of rents of shops but also there were a lot of micro business. ie for some affordable meant renting a space in a larger unit. The example he gave was a hairdresser who would rent a "chair" for £70 a week. So the notion of what is needed and what is affordable needs to be broadened. 

There was not a lot of discussion after. The background noise did not help. 

I say the Rec next door is an example of designing in a different era. When architects could come out of school and get a job with a local Council designing social housing etc. Now a lot of the work is for developers. And how did they feel about that. Both him and Turner seemed to say they would prefer to be working on social projects. One of them ( forget which) said he was thinking of turning down some projects from big developers. 

Also said that one of the big issues was lack of rent controls for shops. They both agreed this would help. 

I also said on the Pop Brixton site a problem is that the Council is likely to sell the site to a developer in future. I said Councils should stop selling off land. They both agreed that selling off land was short sighted. As once its gone its gone. 

Turner said that if he had longer on site he could reduce the rents on the containers down. 
http://www.landoltandbrown.com/

So what did I think? I felt like Andrea when she wrote here article about Pop Brixton 



> Within their own frameworks — acceding to austerity and the demands of development and profit and trying to squeeze out of gentrification a few drops of what they can for the community  — this is in fact a good project, and they are doing their their best.
> 
> Of course, if you started from what the community needs rather than what little we can do with what we can scrape off of an enterprise that needs to earn a profit, this is not the project that would have emerged. But what the community needs is not going to come out of the neoliberal tool box.



Its not like anything the architects were saying was wrong. They were agreeing that there is now a lack of projects that are socially driven not profit driven. They would much prefer not to have to do work for developers. It unfortunately the environment they work in. 

The best one can get is hopefully a few affordable shop units. 

I had a look at Browns website.

Did not find much about community. To my surprise. 



> Optimising + Value
> We have considerable experience of viability-led feasibility studies, optimising and leveraging existing assets. We believe that by challenging planning restrictions and applying principles of good design we can deliver more space for our clients.



I did ask them if they felt conflicted in the work they do. They said yes. Its like at the talk they were trying too hard. In the end the client calls the tune. 

Today I was up at Cressingham Gardens. I met some architects there from ASH- Architects 4 Social Housing. They have started targetting architectural practises who work on schemes which in there eyes undermine social housing. 

See here

This is new. ASH say that architects need to start thinking more about what they are there for. Interesting and controversial development. 

ASH also quote the code of practice that architects have. Bit like the doctors hippocratic oath.



> The decision to target the scheme’s architects marks a new tactic in protests of this kind. ASH – which describes itself as a collective of architects and other built environment professionals, artists and housing activists – promises to repeat it, presenting the profession with some difficult questions. What role do practices have in making society a better place? Should they take a stand by refusing to work on certain schemes? Or are morals best left to the client to worry about?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 14, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> He gave a run down of the issues of regeneration leading to gentrification of areas. Said that the word gentrification was a catch all word. Impacts on areas is not all the same. He looked at what has happened to an area of south London where there has been partial gentrification. Not everyone has been pushed by changes. Second he took Shoreditch as an example of a total "gentrification". The existing working class community losing the area. This was also down to the loss of local employment in light industry.
> 
> The loss of local working class jobs is something he touched on when he talked about his work in Tottenham on a train station.
> 
> ...


What an excellent post, thank you for it.

In the context of this thread it's interesting to read your post and then look at the stated ethos of Pop Brixton - at p3 of this pdf:

http://media.wix.com/ugd/7c8bd5_acc129df98734c42ab43b1317d876106.pdf

The Ethos reads like it's trying to be all things to all people but amongst all that it does talk of community and training.

Sure the project has changed, but from some flower power hippy pipe dream into a hard-headed business reality: what we wish for and what we get ...

Some would, of course, argue first world societies generally face not de-industrialisation but post-industrialisation.

If Pop Brixton is being genuine in its support of local people, local businesses and training then it is making a good contribution to slowing the pace of change at our very local level.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 14, 2015)

CH1 said:


> <snip> The main argument surrounds the gradual Stalinisation of the Tate Library Gardens (now Windrush Square).
> 
> Should be right up our street I think (count me in)
> Health warning: document is 377 pages!
> ...


Thanks for posting that - I'll try to get around to reading it this week, as it looks very interesting.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 14, 2015)

ASH were certainly a breath of fresh air, and tbf they were certainly trying to take a completely fresh look at what could be here.  

They seemed surprised at quite how many different short and direct paths people take through the estate (obvious to anyone living here, but of course, they don't).  There was some talk of building right up to the roadside border, to limit the traffic noise, but they very quickly realised that people living on the other side of the main road have hedges and trees, and that really needs to be echoed on this side.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 14, 2015)

> In Tottenham the changes are coming quicker than Brixton. He looked at the area closely when he was working on the station. There is a of of obvious poverty. Property developers are moving in and want the area cleaned up. So when he designed the station he tried to make it have some relevence to the history of the area. Which was industrial. The outside of the building was made to show the history of industry that has now all but gone. He said one resident told him its the first time a new building has acknowledged the existing long standing working class community there. The pressure from developers is to obliterate that history and start from year zero so to speak.
> 
> ( He was very proud of this project. Afterwards I thought its quite sad really. The best he could do was to historicise the old working class community as a heritage project. )



The station rebuilt hasn't happened yet; though the new bus station has been built (it's Tottenham Hale station).  There's going to be a lot more changes in this part of town over the next few years. Like Lambeth, Haringey are quite open about the fact that they want to change the demographics of the borough.


----------



## editor (Jun 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Sure the project has changed, but from some flower power hippy pipe dream into a hard-headed business reality: what we wish for and what we get ....


You don't half talk a load of utter rubbish at times.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 14, 2015)

That noise folks is not the reawakened Philea lander, it's the irony meter stirring after a page on this thread without the Pious One.


----------



## shifting gears (Jun 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> That noise folks is not the reawakened Philea lander, it's the irony meter stirring after a page on this thread without the Pious One.



God you're a faux clever clogs aren't ya?

I'd just say about you; there's the sound of last night's heavy turd plopping into the bowl, with the inevitable splashback - only a hot shower can save us now.


----------



## editor (Jun 14, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> That noise folks is not the reawakened Philea lander, it's the irony meter stirring after a page on this thread without the Pious One.


Please cut out the personal abuse and explain why it was a "flower power hippy pipe dream" and why Lambeth would have made it the winning bid. Thanks.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 14, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Yes.
> 
> The red went down well.


I'm still piecing together what went in the several hours afterwards . Impressed that you made it to the cider bar on Friday. And Saturday.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Thanks.


You're welcome. Thanks.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 15, 2015)

I'm also pissed off by the noise.
Complaints are widespread.
I live 50 meters away if you are not being passive aggressive towards me then you ought to hear what I say.


----------



## Dexter Deadwood (Jun 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Please cut out the personal abuse and explain why it was a "flower power hippy pipe dream" and why Lambeth would have made it the winning bid. Thanks.



You had a valid opportunity to take these posters out, you had a winning bid and you threw it away as if it was garbage.
That's how they see people like me, we are just trash.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2015)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I'm also pissed off by the noise.
> Complaints are widespread.
> .



I did wonder how the people living nearby felt about that. Went by last Sunday afternoon and they did have a sound system on.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 15, 2015)

I know, a sound system in Brixton town centre at the weekend? Whatever next. 

How very Clapham.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I know, a sound system in Brixton town centre at the weekend? Whatever next.
> 
> How very Clapham.



Its right next to a Council estate. Before that there was a car park for years then the ice rink on the site. I would have thought when Pop Brixton was planned consideration would have been given that it was right next to housing.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 15, 2015)

The annoying music put me off sitting outside my usual station road cafe over the weekend, annoying dull thud bass.


----------



## editor (Jun 15, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I know, a sound system in Brixton town centre at the weekend? Whatever next.
> 
> How very Clapham.


Because you wouldn't complain if a commercial business started playing loud music right outside your house all day, would you?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Some would, of course, argue first world societies generally face not de-industrialisation but post-industrialisation.



Thats a big topic. I move from "Fordist" industry is over done imo. What has happened is that a lot of this has moved to China and Far East. 

In Germany and Italy there is still engineering SMEs. 

post industrialisation has the potential to free people from work. There is no reason why the working week could not be reduced. 

Marx was saying this back in 19C. In Capital volume one he mentions the massive increase of productivity could mean reduction to a 6 hour day.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Because you wouldn't complain if a commercial business started playing loud music right outside your house all day, would you?


In Brixton Station Rd? You've got to be kidding me.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> In Brixton Station Rd? You've got to be kidding me.



The site is right next to a Council Estate has I have already said.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 15, 2015)

I think it's safe to say there's some difference between planned events (Splash for instance) playing loud music from time to time and an open air venue playing music every day of the week.

What time do they have to shut the music off?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 15, 2015)

Or one of the several shop at that end of BSR that takes turns to blast out their sounds.

You'll all be complaining the sky is to blue next. Weird, weird, bunch.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its right next to a Council estate. Before that there was a car park for years then the ice rink on the site. I would have thought when Pop Brixton was planned consideration would have been given that it was right next to housing.


Well you know my thoughts on this kind of thing are much the same as yours. I don't think it matters what kind of housing it is.

I think the point UTJ is making is that Coldharbour Lane residents have recently been berated for complaining about amplified noise from the new market which has opened adjacent to your old gaff. Even though the market arrived after them and set up in a largely disused plot, it's been implied that the complainants are blow in nimbys who don't get / belong in Brixton.


----------



## han (Jun 15, 2015)

If people who've been living somewhere for years suddenly start getting disturbed by a newly arrived business playing loud music, they have every right to complain.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 15, 2015)

han said:


> If people who've been living somewhere for years suddenly start getting disturbed by a newly arrived business playing loud music, they have every right to complain.


Why does it need to have been "for years"?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 15, 2015)

han said:


> If people who've been living somewhere for years suddenly start getting disturbed by a newly arrived business playing loud music, they have every right to complain.


I though the people complaining were on here. Do you know if any residents have complained to the council? Of course you don't. More bollocks.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 15, 2015)

Pop Brixton are hiring a Social Media Intern................



> Pop Brixton are looking for a Social media Intern for a minimum 3 month paid internship. This is a really exciting role for someone keen to develop their skills as part of a ground-breaking start-up.
> The role will see you working closely with the marketing team to help run the 5 main social media channels (Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Blog and Youtube)  as well as working with our design team on compelling communications.
> MUST HAVES
> 
> ...


http://www.popbrixton.org/#!Were-hiring-Social-Media-Intern/ctyd/557edadd0cf298dc5b997e70


----------



## han (Jun 15, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I though the people complaining were on here. Do you know if any residents have complained to the council? Of course you don't. More bollocks.


Did I say anyone had complained? I'm just stating a principle.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Well you know my thoughts on this kind of thing are much the same as yours. I don't think it matters what kind of housing it is.



No I dont think what kind of housing it is matters either.

When I was in central Brixton I did deal with noise issues. Including helping out others. Does not make one popular.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 15, 2015)

Brixton is getting busier and it's getting noisier, and the clash between domestic and commercial dwellers is going to be inevitable, regardless of how long anyone has been there.

Market House has been forced to board most of the upstairs windows to dampen the sound being released and are under close scruntiny from the council.

Forging a path ahead that doesn't result in a nice clean Brixton where everything is swithed off at 11pm is going to be a challenge.

I think nightlife, and noise, and general hubbub, is a key part of the centre of Brixton, but with more flats and a hotel, there's going to be complaints...


----------



## han (Jun 15, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Why does it need to have been "for years"?


The length of time isn't necessarily important. But if people are living somewhere that doesn't have loud music playing, then suddenly this becomes a feature due to new arrivals, it's understandable that they might be pissed off, even if they haven't complained (yet).


----------



## han (Jun 15, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think nightlife, and noise, and general hubbub, is a key part of the centre of Brixton, but with more flats and a hotel, there's going to be complaints...



I do think that people who move (or build flats) somewhere that's already very noisy, and then complain about the noise, need their heads examining. When a pub that has had bands and a late license for many years gets complaints from people who've just moved in right next to it (why?!), that's just plain wrong.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 15, 2015)

han said:


> <snip> When a pub that has had bands and a late license for many years gets complaints from people who've just moved in right next to it (why?!), that's just plain wrong.


Agreed.  That's like people moving to the country and complaining that muckspreading stinks and cockerels crow very early in the morning.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 15, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Or one of the several shop at that end of BSR that takes turns to blast out their sounds.
> 
> You'll all be complaining the sky is to blue next. Weird, weird, bunch.



If you don't like it here, why not fuck off?
Of course, then you'd lose the opportunity to feel smugly superior, but you'd be no loss.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 15, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I though the people complaining were on here. Do you know if any residents have complained to the council? Of course you don't. More bollocks.



A resident has already stated that they'd complained, on the previous page to this, you arse.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 15, 2015)

han said:


> The length of time isn't necessarily important. But if people are living somewhere that doesn't have loud music playing, then suddenly this becomes a feature due to new arrivals, it's understandable that they might be pissed off, even if they haven't complained (yet).


I reckon we pretty much agree.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 15, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Brixton is getting busier and it's getting noisier, and the clash between domestic and commercial dwellers is going to be inevitable, regardless of how long anyone has been there.
> 
> Market House has been forced to board most of the upstairs windows to dampen the sound being released and are under close scruntiny from the council.
> 
> ...



The change came with the extension of late night licensing. Market house is an example. Bought up by Dogstar Larry (it was originally called Coach and Horses then "Living" by Larry)  he got late extension and license for the upstairs. Originally the pub just used the ground floor and was open until 11am. It was a pub then not a club. It was never soundproofed properly. Problems with it go back that far. I used to know someone who lived behind it. A lot of problems would not  have happened if pubs/ bars had not got extensions to use upstairs of buildings they are in.

Mingles/ Harmony is another example. The local residents were so glad when that finally went after years of problems with it that they opposed plans for a new bar to be built in the new development.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 15, 2015)

han said:


> I do think that people who move (or build flats) somewhere that's already very noisy, and then complain about the noise, need their heads examining. When a pub that has had bands and a late license for many years gets complaints from people who've just moved in right next to it (why?!), that's just plain wrong.


In general the "agent of change principle" is a good one. Though it's hard to apply retrospectively. Pretty much most late night music pubs, for example, will have been the agent of change at some point although it may have been through creep.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Pop Brixton are hiring a Social Media Intern................
> 
> 
> http://www.popbrixton.org/#!Were-hiring-Social-Media-Intern/ctyd/557edadd0cf298dc5b997e70


Shame there's no mention of how much this skilled worker might expect for their hard work.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think the point UTJ is making is that Coldharbour Lane residents have recently been berated for complaining about amplified noise from the new market which has opened adjacent to your old gaff. Even though the market arrived after them and set up in a largely disused plot, it's been implied that the complainants are blow in nimbys who don't get / belong in Brixton.


Just for the record: I mentioned it because a large number of complaints were apparently received from Brixton Square about the small Granville Market. The noise from the new market is hardly loud and is only for one evening a week - a Saturday night - and even then it shuts off at 11pm.

So yes, if you're going to start complaining about the relatively minimal noise coming from a community-oriented local market that only happens for one night a week (and stops way before midnight), then perhaps you might want to reconsider your living choices.

I don't see it as a valid comparison to what's going on at Pop Brixton. No doubt you will violently disagree, but as a long time resident of Coldharbour Lane, I'd never complain about noise from a community event - especially something as innocuous as this little market. It's always been a noisy street.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't see it as a valid comparison to what's going on at Pop Brixton. No doubt you will violently disagree, but as a long time resident of Coldharbour Lane, I'd never complain about noise from a community event - especially something as innocuous as this little market. It's always been a noisy street.


It's getting tricky trying to match which markets are on the U75 Approved List (and which are hateful capitalist incursions), with  which residential developments are on the U75 Approved List (ditto).


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's getting tricky trying to match which markets are on the U75 Approved List (and which are hateful capitalist incursions), with  which residential developments are on the U75 Approved List (ditto).


It's clearly pointless trying to have any kind of intelligent conversation with you. Please stop disrupting threads with this nonsense.


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Once again, you're showing that you are unable to intelligently engage with the points being made and are reduced to posting up more of the same idiotic and disruptive nonsense. Please stop.


There's a lot of it about .


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

It's worth noting that Barratt's own publicity material describes Coldharbour Lane as "vibrant" and "buzzy" with the flats being located next to a "bustling" market.


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## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

Right, and how is Brixton_Buzz?_

Why not pick three adjectives yourself and we can compare?


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## Maharani (Jun 16, 2015)

I think the point being that Brixton is pretty noisy so get over it...


----------



## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Maharani said:


> I think the point being that Brixton is pretty noisy so get over it...


Is that to the residents opposite Granville food market; or the residents behind Pop; or both?


----------



## T & P (Jun 16, 2015)

Or Cressingham Gardens while we're at it...


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Is that to the residents opposite Granville food market; or the residents behind Pop; or both?


Brixton is generally noisy, it wasn't meant for any particular residents.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Right, and how is Brixton_Buzz?_
> 
> Why not pick three adjectives yourself and we can compare?


You're rambling incoherently again. Please think before you post.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Is that to the residents opposite Granville food market; or the residents behind Pop; or both?


You can't see the difference? _Really?_

One's on a busy road that is famous for (and sold on) its - ahem - vibrant, lively culture, the other was - until recently - host to a generally quiet car park.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Maharani said:


> I think the point being that Brixton is pretty noisy so get over it...


The thing is, I have every sympathy if you live somewhere residential and then a loud sound system suddenly moves in and starts blaring out music every day of the week until late. But if you move into Coldharbour Lane and then start complaining about a fucking tiny little sound system that only plays for one night a week until 11pm then FUCK YOU.


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2015)

editor said:


> The thing is, I have every sympathy if you live somewhere residential and then a loud sound system suddenly moves in and starts blaring out music every day of the week until late. But if you move into Coldharbour Lane and then start complaining about a fucking tiny little sound system that only plays for one night a week until 11pm then FUCK YOU.


precisely.


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## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Brixton is generally noisy, it wasn't meant for any particular residents.


I agree it's noisy generally and that should be taken into consideration in assessing any complaints about nuisance. Where noise is exceptional (I don't know whether it is or isn't in either case but complaints against both sites involve newly introduced amplified sound adjacent to existing central Brixton residential) I certainly can't disagree with what I understand you to be saying, namely  that whatever principle is applied, it applies generally (ie to all equally).


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

editor said:


> You're rambling incoherently again. Please think before you post.


It's incoherent to point out you don't like the descriptor "buzzy" as applied to CHL but write for BrixtonBuzz?

Sums you up neatly.


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's incoherent to point out you don't like the descriptor "buzzy" as applied to CHL but write for BrixtonBuzz?
> 
> Sums you up neatly.


oh ffs why are being such a petty shit? get a fucking life!


----------



## Fingers (Jun 16, 2015)

I would highly recommend all the grey areas on this map for people who cannot handle a little bit of noise. They can piss off and stop trying to sanitise this vibrant city.


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## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's incoherent to point out you don't like the descriptor "buzzy" as applied to CHL but write for BrixtonBuzz?
> 
> Sums you up neatly.


One is a website. It lives on the internet. The other is a real life street. 
If you can't tell the difference betwixt the two, I'm afraid I can't help you further.


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## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Fingers said:


> I would highly recommend all the grey areas on this map for people who cannot handle a little bit of noise. They can piss off and stop trying to sanitise this vibrant city.
> 
> View attachment 72774


Define "little bit of noise".

(Not actually asking you to do that. Just highlighting that that is where disagreement trends to arise, rather than whether one should logically expect one place to be generally noisier that another).


----------



## Maharani (Jun 16, 2015)

editor said:


> One is a website. It lives on the internet. The other is a real life street.
> If you can't tell the difference betwixt the two, I'm afraid I can't help you further.


I'm all out of yawns...


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

editor said:


> One is a website. It lives on the internet. The other is a real life street.
> If you can't tell the difference betwixt the two, I'm afraid I can't help you further.


You're happy to criticise others choice but you can't offer us your choice of three adjectives?

If 'Buzz' is very wrong to describe, er, Brixton - what are your suggestions?


----------



## Fingers (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Define "little bit of noise".
> 
> (Not actually asking you to do that. Just highlighting that that is where disagreement trends to arise, rather than whether one should logically expect one place to be generally noisier that another).



For example, a market with a sound system one night a week which closes down at 11pm.  For example a pub that has been an important community asset in London for years, which has live music once or twice a week. For example, someone who once in a blue moon has a party and some friends round.

That sort of little bit of noise that seems to get new comers frothing down the telephone to Lambeth Council and quite often the police.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Fingers said:


> For example, a market with a sound system one night a week which closes down at 11pm.  For example a pub that has been an important community asset in London for years, which has live music once or twice a week. For example, someone who once in a blue moon has a party and some friends round.
> 
> That sort of little bit of noise that seems to get new comers frothing down the telephone to Lambeth Council and quite often the police.


Yep.


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## Fingers (Jun 16, 2015)

And you know what constant noise blights me 24 hours?  Cars. With their whining and spluttering and their honking horns. 

But I do not complain because I chose to live near a busy road so I am not going to campaign to have cars banned from the area... 

though come the revolution... any frivolous noise complainers with cars will have them taken off them and they will turned into loud sound systems.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Take an even simpler view. If you dislike noisy areas, live elsewhere. If you can afford to move to Brixton these days, you clearly have other choices.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Fingers said:


> And you know what constant noise blights me 24 hours?  Cars. With their whining and spluttering and their honking horns.
> 
> But I do not complain because I chose to live near a busy road so I am not going to campaign to have cars banned from the area...
> 
> though come the revolution... any frivolous noise complainers with cars will have them taken off them and they will turned into loud sound systems.



Cunts with power tools and Noisy gardening tools.....on a SUNDAY MORNING!!!!

People who live above you and dare hoover, ever!

People who live above you and keep putting the washing machine on at Midnight....so you get the spin cycle at 1am...on a Monday night!!!

Death be what awaits them come the good day, comrades!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 16, 2015)

Fingers said:


> And you know what constant noise blights me 24 hours?  Cars. With their whining and spluttering and their honking horns.
> 
> But I do not complain because I chose to live near a busy road so I am not going to campaign to have cars banned from the area...



TBF you'd have a better case than most given the cars also have a habit of splattering people all over the road in front of your building...


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Tulse Hill is Death Race 2000


----------



## Fingers (Jun 16, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> TBF you'd have a better case than most given the cars also have a habit of splattering people all over the road in front of your building...



True. Seen enough dead bodies to last me a lifetime living here.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Fingers said:


> For example, a market with a sound system one night a week which closes down at 11pm.  For example a pub that has been an important community asset in London for years, which has live music once or twice a week. For example, someone who once in a blue moon has a party and some friends round.
> 
> That sort of little bit of noise that seems to get new comers frothing down the telephone to Lambeth Council and quite often the police.


That's not really defined what a little bit of noise is though. "A market with a sound system" could be pretty quiet or deafeningly  loud. More of a siding with one noise maker over another. 

Having had to take the council to court twice to reverse noise abatement notices banning any amplified sound audible outside my home (two parties, 4 years apart, one complaint each time, neighbours courteously advised well in advance) I'm with you on the once in a blue moon party thing. Luckily they withdrew the notice both times - once pre court and once in court.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Fingers said:


> And you know what constant noise blights me 24 hours?  Cars. With their whining and spluttering and their honking horns.
> 
> But I do not complain because I chose to live near a busy road so I am not going to campaign to have cars banned from the area...



Same here. Though I did have a fairly good idea the road and traffic were there before I made the choice to live there. Unlike the residents listening to the new outdoor sound systems accompanying the two new markets.

The night market on Windrush Square (operated by the same market business) has a noise strategy in place and refers to positioning of sound equipment so as to avoid nuisance to residents and checking noise levels regularly in preassigned locations. Is that unreasonable?


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## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> That's not really defined what a little bit of noise is though. "A market with a sound system" could be pretty quiet or deafeningly  loud..


Why not go down and find out for yourself if you're not going to believe what I've said about the level of noise?  

There's not even a proper sound system there, ffs.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

*Pop Brixton's FAQs*


13)_ How will you manage the site -noise levels/opening times/security and rules of your license? 


- Pop Brixton will continue to work closely with the emergency services, planning and the licensing authorities to make sure the  site is -  a community asset and enjoyable space for everyone


- Pop Brixton has appointed Fortus security as our licensed security contractors to manage the site


- Our caretaking team will be on site throughout opening hours, ensuring Pop’s standards of  a safe and friendly  atmosphere


- Anyone selling alcohol on site must be a personal licensee
_
*They do go on to also tell this fib.....*

_6) Does Brixton need more food and drink establishments?_

- About one third of Pop Brixton will be focused on food and drink


----------



## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> *Pop Brixton's FAQs*
> 
> 
> 13)_ How will you manage the site -noise levels/opening times/security and rules of your license?
> ...


How did you work that out? What proportion of units will really be food and drink?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

He has no idea. It's the tradition on U75.

I believe applications for phase 2 are being sifted this week.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 16, 2015)

so what positions (paid or otherwise), other than contrary, do you two have on Pop Brixton?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> How did you work that out? What proportion of units will really be food and drink?



There's more than a third food/drink places today. 

How it ends up is anyone's guess, but today there is certainly more than a third.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There's more than a third food/drink places today.
> 
> How it ends up is anyone's guess, but today there is certainly more than a third.


Brilliant!

While you're employing that razor-sharp mind, do you think that would inevitably be the case if all the drink and food leases were in Phase 1, and Phase 2 and 3 were wholly about creative and training spaces? As it says in the documentation.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

They


Up the junction said:


> Brilliant!
> 
> While you're employing that razor-sharp mind, do you think that would inevitably be the case if all the drink and food leases were in Phase 1, and Phase 2 and 3 were wholly about creative and training spaces? As it says in all the documentation.



I'll wager it won't be, but we'll see won't we?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There's more than a third food/drink places today.
> 
> How it ends up is anyone's guess, but today there is certainly more than a third.



Oh. I see. Based on what's open *so far*.

They said at the q&a that the food /drink units were opening first.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Oh. I see. Based on what's open *so far*.
> 
> They said at the q&a that the food /drink units were opening first.



As I say above. We'll see, but I predict food and drink will consume more than a third of the units.

I'm more than happy to have that prediction dashed. I'd like to see the 'performance' space up and running, a few more retail units. As for the training and learning, it would be nice, but I sense it'll get lost under the need to generate profit.

Again...I might be proved wrong...but we'll see,


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

...and I'd rather see POP become a success than it fail and another block of flats shoots up...


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'll wager it won't be, but we'll see won't we?


eh?

You've just told us all you've discovered the Pop Brixton people are telling "a little fib" i.e they are lying about the composition of the development. And now it's 'we'll see won't we' like we're 16 and want to stay out late on Saturday night.

You, sir, are immediately elevated to the U75 Brains Trust.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> You, sir, are immediately elevated to the U75 Brains Trust.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> As I say above. We'll see, but I predict food and drink will consume more than a third of the units.
> 
> I'm more than happy to have that prediction dashed. I'd like to see the 'performance' space up and running, a few more retail units. As for the training and learning, it would be nice, but I sense it'll get lost under the need to generate profit.
> 
> Again...I might be proved wrong...but we'll see,


Fair enough. It might be so. Not really the basis for calling them liars though.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> eh?
> 
> You've just told us all you've discovered the Pop Brixtion people are telling "a little fib" i.e they are lying about the composition of the development. And now it's 'we'll see won't we' like we're 16 and want to stay out late on Saturday night.
> 
> You, sir, are immediately elevated to the U75 Brains Trust.



Why does insulting people entertain you so much?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Fair enough. It might be so. Not really the basis for calling them liars though.



Well I did.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

Why do you insist on posting up utter bollocks?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Why do you insist on posting up utter bollocks?



So you can feel superior.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

Oh, I wonder if that's another "little fib"


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Oh, I wonder if that's another "little fib"



There is something quite wrong with you.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 16, 2015)

My understanding is there will be no more food or drink places given leases. In  fact, it says so explicitly on the website.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Ms T said:


> My understanding is there will be no more food or drink places given leases. In  fact, it says so explicitly on the website.



Yes, it does. I've just found that, thanks. Hope they stick to it.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

So in the last few pages CH1 has named someone on the overseeing body at Pop who s/he said wasn't going his job, and then shut up abou when pushed about it. Editor finds the language used to describe CHL unacceptable but won't offer any alternatives, and this poster has conceded he is talking bollocks when he accused Pop Brixton of lying. All in about 4 pages of this thread. It seems to come very easy to people here.

That is three different people or organisations who have been accused of not doing their job either at all or properly, and where the poster was shown to be wrong or stopped responding.

And there's something wrong with me for pointing that out.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 16, 2015)

So far, the food and drink places don't match up to the quality of some of the new-wave places in Brixton Village/Market Row.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Editor finds the language used to describe CHL unacceptable but won't offer any alternatives...


What the fuck are you on about now?  It really is time for you to start thinking before posting up any more of your weird and disruptive gibberish.

I honestly can't make sense of most of your incomprehensible rants - the one about the name of a website and Coldharbour Lane being a case in point. Weird.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

It's okay, we're aware of your comprehension problems from your often repeated conflation of squatters and legal tenants rights.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's okay, we're aware of your comprehension problems from your often repeated conflation of squatters and legal tenants rights.


Please take this as a warning: stop disrupting this discussion with your weird personal attacks and off topic nonsense.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> So in the last few pages CH1 has named someone on the overseeing body at Pop who s/he said wasn't going his job, and then shut up abou when pushed about it. Editor finds the language used to describe CHL unacceptable but won't offer any alternatives, and this poster has conceded he is talking bollocks when he accused Pop Brixton of lying. All in about 4 pages of this thread. It seems to come very easy to people here.
> 
> That is three different people or organisations who have been accused of not doing their job either at all or properly, and where the poster was shown to be wrong or stopped responding.
> 
> And there's something wrong with me for pointing that out.



I didn't concede anything. Go fuck yourself.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 16, 2015)

Oh you "fibber".


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Oh you "fibber".



Ok.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 16, 2015)

I'm quite willing to accept I hadn't read the Pop Brixton Information Pack for future renters (oh yeah, I did above), which states no more food/drink places. If I had I might have not suggested they told 'a fib'...but I did, and I'm happy for that to remain there...

It's still doesn't excuse the constant derailing and insulting posts.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 16, 2015)

having been now, it's not to my taste. the design of it gives an inherant vibe of being cut of, and currently, it is unquestionably a commercial venture, rather than a community asset. whether that will change or not only time will tell. ive nothing against splashing a bit of wedge occasionally for a nice meal out, i just prefer doing so in a pleasant environment, and for my taste, that does not equal a cramped ply lined metal box. i would of been happier with less foody/drinky places, i think the villarge has that pretty well covered, and more shops (pref local start ups), but i guess thats not where the money is, so like all commercial ventures, it will succeed or fail on its own merits, or lack off, regardless of what we do or dont want. my over whelming feeling was that of a lost opportunity to do something for brixton.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

'Mislead' maybe, but certainly not "lost" - it's a temp structure built out of shitty containers. Lease is until Sept 2017, isn't it?


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> 'Mislead' maybe, but certainly not "lost" - it's a temp structure built out of shitty containers. Lease is until Sept 2017, isn't it?


No, it's a lost opportunity. We could have had something new, original and inspiring that reflected Brixton's creativity and something that got all the community involved.  Instead we got an ugly Shoreditch copy of a "business park for the 21st century" that bears no visible connections to the area's heritage or culture.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 17, 2015)

I would much prefer the vision you describe to what we now have. Who wouldn't?

But no one came up with such a vision.

What we have now is only one third complete - and pretty similar to the winning bid, depending on your interpretation of the documents.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I would much prefer the vision you describe to what we now have. Who wouldn't?
> 
> But no one came up with such a vision.
> 
> What we have now is only one third complete - and pretty similar to the winning bid, depending on your interpretation of the documents.


We had something much closer to that vision that then morphed - without consultation - into Jacko's business park.  Granville Market Space proves that it is possible to open up a new market and still retain something of the character of Brixton...

We'll have to disagree on the supposed similarities. It obviously retains a lot of the original bid's features, but the ethos is entirely different, IMO.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> ...it is possible to open up a new market and still retain something of the character of Brixton...
> 
> , IMO.


This is one of the reasons I found it dissapointing, Pop Brixton could be in any supposedly 'trendy' part of London, Shoreditch, Peckham, Dalston, Bermondsey, etc. It brings a homogenisation to the area in the same way that chain stores have to towns and cities across the UK.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> This is one of the reasons I found it dissapointing, Pop Brixton could be in any supposedly 'trendy' part of London, Shoreditch, Peckham, Dalston, Bermondsey, etc. It brings a homogenisation to the area in the same way that chain stores have to towns and cities across the UK.


This is a hand painted sign that went up outside Granville Market space. Feels very 'spirit of Brixton' to me. And they've got a ramshackle performance area that anyone can rock up to - even local political poets.

 

They've also put plants up all around the area, and Small World Urbanism even built a little bench with a space for plants on Coldharbour Lane. Feels very community minded and inclusive. I like it. It can be done. 

*awaits the sneers


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 17, 2015)

^ Yep, thats ace.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 17, 2015)

I haven't been to the Granville Market space yet, but it looks a much better use than when it was an overgrown parking lot; and Brixton's best mural makes a great backdrop :thumbs :


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> Granville Market Space proves that it is possible to open up a new market and still retain something of the character of Brixton...


Ah yes the Approved weekend only cutie summer tent and tables place. It is nice, set in the shade there. You'd like to see another of those? Fwiw, I saw several one-man bands selling the same stuff you see elsewhere in Brixton. All that was missing was a phone stall.

How about the dozens, and perhaps hundreds, of local people finding creative and other work at Pop, where training is built into the lease covenants? - what would you say to those people either now in, or about to be in, gainful local employment?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 17, 2015)

The 200 (claimed) jobs at Pop does suggest that the comparison to Granville is not that helpful.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Ah yes the Approved weekend only cutie summer tent and tables place.


"Cutie"? Have you actually been? 
























Up the junction said:


> How about the dozens, and perhaps hundreds, of local people finding creative and other work at Pop, where training is built into the lease covenants? - what would you say to those people either now in, or about to be in, gainful local employment?


Wow. I didn't realise you had the power to predict someone's future employment status. Impressive.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The 200 (claimed) jobs at Pop does suggest that the comparison to Granville is not that helpful.


It's proof that you can create something new and still make it feel inclusive to the local community and retain something of Brixton's heritage and culture. Or do you think that only bland, anytown Shoreditch-styled ventures have the ability to offer employment?

PS People work at Granville Market space too. No entrepreneurial NZ wine importers though, just local beer.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> Have you actually been?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"wow" - are you having a Kate Bush moment?

You told us before in this thread you don't know anything about business, which is fine. You may therefore not know there were 150 applications for phase 1, the strongest business plans that best matched the criteria were selected, at least according to the Pop people.

These are well developed, funded plans with year long forecasts approved not only by Pop but usually by commercial lenders. That's not a Pop thing, that's how developments like this work. Minimum risk. Esp. given £1.5 million has been put into it.

It's entirely understandable you think other people also say whatever comes into their heads but when decent sums of money are involved it requires professional decision-making. That's hard-headed, experienced, professional decision-making, bringing local jobs to Brixton town centre.

Anyway, the hundreds of local jobs - what would you say to those people: never mind about that creative employment, go and walk around some samey stalls and listen to a few local poets? And make sure you do it at the weekend, when it's not raining.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Ah yes the Approved weekend only cutie summer tent and tables place. It is nice, set in the shade there. You'd like to see another of those? Fwiw, I saw several one-man bands selling the same stuff you see elsewhere in Brixton. All that was missing was a phone stall.
> 
> How about the dozens, and perhaps hundreds, of local people finding creative and other work at Pop, where training is built into the lease covenants? - what would you say to those people either now in, or about to be in, gainful local employment?


how much 'cleansing' of the area will have to happen until you are content?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

"cleansing" of dodgy concrete carparks? I will never cease!!


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

so, that question on how many shares you have? or undisclosed interests in this pop venture?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

Yep, and Guinness Trust - I believe I work for both. You'll have to get an update from the U75 Brains Trust to be sure though, they're on top of that stuff.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

you work for pop? figures


----------



## Winot (Jun 17, 2015)

ddraig said:


> so, that question on how many shares you have? or undisclosed interests in this pop venture?



I've no idea about UTJ's links or not to Pop, but ownership by someone local is normally thought on here to be a Good Thing.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

just think they're being quite unprofessional if true, their conduct on here i mean


----------



## Ms T (Jun 17, 2015)

ddraig said:


> just think they're being quite unprofessional if true, their conduct on here i mean


Who are you talking about?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

it's quite clear


----------



## Ms T (Jun 17, 2015)

No it's not.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> You told us before in this thread you don't know anything about business, which is fine.


Where did I say that in this thread?


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> It's entirely understandable you think other people also say whatever comes into their heads but when decent sums of money are involved it requires professional decision-making. That's hard-headed, experienced, professional decision-making, bringing local jobs to Brixton town centre.


Yes. Fuck what the locals want!  Fuck the area's heritage! Business always knows best!


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

Ms T said:


> No it's not.


if you start from post 1300 and read in order it is


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> Where did I say that in this thread?


About 30 pages ago when you weren't making sense about New Zealand wine and Kickstater. You can't remember what you've said?


----------



## Ms T (Jun 17, 2015)

I


ddraig said:


> if you start from post 1300 and read in order it is


It is not at all clear if UTJ works for Pop.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

to smugface UTJ
aren't you too busy, high flying and successful to be spending time on this thread?? is it not champers o clock by now?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes. Fuck what the locals want!  Fuck the area's heritage! Business always knows best!





The topic is two hunded local jobs that you don't want. What are you going to say to those people as they wander around your Approved same old stalls?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Yep, and Guinness Trust - I believe I work for both. You'll have to get an update from the U75 Brains Trust to be sure though, they're on top of that stuff.


this isn't clear Ms T?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

Ms T said:


> I
> 
> It is not at all clear if UTJ works for Pop.


They also think I work for Guinness. The Brains Trust decided that based on me knowing the difference between squatters and tenants.

I guess the revelation I work for Pop is based on demonstrating a GCSE level grasp of economics.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

so do you or not?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 17, 2015)

Oh look, NZ Wine Importer gets another mention.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> About 30 pages ago when you weren't making sense about New Zealand wine and Kickstater. You can't remember what you've said?


I can and that's why I'm asking you to show me the quote to provide some context.

I clearly know something abut business because I've been successfully self employed for 20 years and still have the time run multiple non profit ventures. But then I'm not all about the money.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> The topic is two hunded local jobs that you don't want.


Ah, the classic misrepresentation tactic. 

So you're claiming that all alternative schemes would provide much less local employment? Show me your figures for this.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Oh look, NZ Wine Importer gets another mention.


They were a high profile addition that was warmly welcomed by the Pop Brixton people, so why not?


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> They also think I work for Guinness. The Brains Trust decided that based on me knowing the difference between squatters and tenants.
> 
> I guess the revelation I work for Pop is based on demonstrating a GCSE level grasp of economics.


Who's "they", exactly? Names, please. Thanks.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

he's really really not worth it ed
a question dodging childish liar and wind up merchant


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

ddraig said:


> he's really really not worth it ed
> a question dodging childish liar and wind up merchant


No, I want to know the names of all these people, so I'll look forward to him backing up his claim.


----------



## uk benzo (Jun 17, 2015)

Holy shit this thread has become tedious.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 17, 2015)

Saw this the other week; box park concept is catching on in the Hebrides too.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

In case anyone is going to Pop, please note: 


> I could not get in; I was holding a small bottle of orange juice, it was not allowed to take in drinks. Just a warning for others in case they might not be aware of same. [--]


----------



## Belushi (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> In case anyone is going to Pop, please note:



I thought they were happy for the public to go in just to sit with a book etc..


----------



## Winot (Jun 17, 2015)

^^ that's pretty shit


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> please. Thanks.


As always, you are welcome. Thanks/wow.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> I clearly know something abut business because I've been successfully self employed for 20 years and still have the time run multiple non profit ventures. But then I'm not all about the money.


no comment.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> no comment.


Just to save me time and not disrupt the thread any further, can you confirm that you are indeed unable to answer the questions asked in posts #1323 and #1321?

Oh, and if you have 'no comment', the protocol is not to waste time making a post just to say that.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

he had some dodgy accusation about you there first and obviously had some sense to edit


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> Shame there's no mention of how much this skilled worker might expect for their hard work.





Up the junction said:


> ....... the hundreds of local jobs



The website says 200 jobs but it does not say they will be for local people
working in the locality and local jobs are not the same thing
granted the intern vacancy i posted upthread says preference will be given to someone from Lambeth
but that could easily be some minted toff who is living in a penthouse that his mum and dad bought on the South Bank.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

ddraig said:


> he had some dodgy accusation about you there first and obviously had some sense to edit


I managed to read what he wrote and it's even more confused, fact-free and defamatory than his usual unsubstantiated smears and slurs. He ought to be careful before posting up such bonkers lies.

And in case anyone read it: I've never been involved in running a pub, neither did I lose a "lot of friends" or any money over whatever fairytale nonsense he's peddling.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 17, 2015)

Thank goodness _someone_ is standing up for fact-based and substantiated claims.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

look who's back, just what's needed


----------



## superfly101 (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> They were a high profile addition that was warmly welcomed by the Pop Brixton people, so why not?



Yes but you seem to really irrationally hate this poor girl and her located in a shipping container crowd funded wine import business!

Nobody else seams to give two hoots about it. 

Her business model is online ordering which just needs a cheap lock up for storage and distribution, all of which could take place in Bognor which is probably cheaper (and has more kiss me quick hats) than Brixton. 

Which really is the crux of the matter as by basing here she will be paying local taxes which will benefit everybody in the local area. Her impact on the local community is actually quite positive and could be more so if.....

How about instead of going off on an OTC perverted rant you engaged with her. Made her feel welcome and suggested things to get her more included rather than the vitriolic hate campaign you intend to wage for the next year plus like you did with OTC? 

Discounts for the use of the Brixton pound? Maybe play cookie sales person and sell her a few local bonds? Lambeth has a catering college..... whilst an hour a week..... A WHOLE HOUR A WEEK!!!! What if that hour could be spent once a month or so down at the local catering college doing a course on matching, buying and tasting wine for trainee chefs? 

So.......

Well this is probably the wrong time to write this post as it's points scoring on the internet ahoy!


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Thank goodness _someone_ is standing up for fact-based and substantiated claims.


I do wish you wouldn't just pop up in threads like this with the sole intention of stirring things up. It adds nothing to the debate and disrupts the thread if anyone bothers to engage with it. Perhaps that's what you want. It sure seems so sometimes. Shame.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Yes but you seem to really irrationally hate this poor girl and her located in a shipping container crowd funded wine import business!


No, I really don't "irrationally" hate her at all. I have no opinion of her at all, to be honest. In fact, I think I wished her business al the best many posts ago. 


superfly101 said:


> How about instead of going off on an OTC perverted rant you engaged with her. !


Could you show me where have I have "gone off on a OTC perverted rant" about her please?  I really haven't, you know.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

what's a peverted rant?


----------



## superfly101 (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> No, I really don't "irrationally" hate her at all. I have no opinion of her at all, to be honest. In fact, I think I wished her business al the best many posts ago.
> Could you show me where have I have "gone off on a OTC perverted rant" about her please?  I really haven't, you know.



FFS stop it! Seriously stop it!

Anybody who tries to tell you maybe just maybe you need to take a different angle is shot down like this. 

It then becomes a personal attack on you. I've suggested way in which and why you should maybe engage with somebody by default you are nonsensically attacking!

I've suggested ways in which the wine business could be good for Brixton and how with "engagement" it could benefit people in Brixton. 

Am I wrong here?


----------



## superfly101 (Jun 17, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> what's a peverted rant?


----------



## Belushi (Jun 17, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Am I wrong here?



What's a perverted rant?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2015)

Belushi said:


> What's a perverted rant?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> rather than the vitriolic hate campaign you intend to wage for the next year plus like you did with OTC?



To be fair, Editor hardly lead a charge against OTC on that thread. The owners dug their own hole and plenty of people were willing to assist in pushing them into it...but the feelings 'against' OTC were very much born of the owners early aggressive responses to some quite reasonable questions. Some of the piss taking got a bit nasty, but again, that really wasn't lead by anyone specific.

ETA: the hat thing was all their own doing!!!


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

why should people help businesses if their ideas/products are not good enough?


----------



## Winot (Jun 17, 2015)

ddraig said:


> why should people help businesses if their ideas/products are not good enough?



Unusual to read such a 'free market' approach on here.


----------



## newbie (Jun 17, 2015)

the last umpteen posts made by Up the junction were on this thread, yet there is nothing evident to indicate what s/he was banned for.


----------



## Winot (Jun 17, 2015)

newbie said:


> the last umpteen posts made by Up the junction were on this thread, yet there is nothing evident to indicate what s/he was banned for.



Permaban due to "rules violations".

http://www.urban75.net/forums/banlist/


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> In case anyone is going to Pop, please note:



I thought you could go in with your own food/drink?


----------



## newbie (Jun 17, 2015)

Winot said:


> Permaban due to "rules violations".
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/banlist/


I saw that.  As I said, all their recent posts were on this thread.


----------



## newbie (Jun 17, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I thought you could go in with your own food/drink?


no, there's a notice.  I got followed around by a security bloke while eating a pattie, but he didn't say anything.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

newbie said:


> no, there's a notice.  I got followed around by a security bloke while eating a pattie, but he didn't say anything.



I'm sure I read that in meeting with the representatives of Pop Brixton, which occurred at Market House, they stated they had no issue with people bringing food in to eat.

I'm not gonna go searching for it, maybe somewhere back in this thread.


----------



## newbie (Jun 17, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'm sure I read that in meeting with the representatives of Pop Brixton, which occurred at Market House, they stated they had no issue with people bringing food in to eat.
> 
> I'm not gonna go searching for it, maybe somewhere back in this thread.


dunno, but there's a notice by the entrance, which I ignored.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Am I wrong here?


I've no idea what you're going no about to be honest, but it sure looked like a personal attack to me. You steamed in to accuse me of harbouring "irrational hatred" for a "poor girl" and then claimed I'd "gone off on a OTC perverted rant."


----------



## Rushy (Jun 17, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'm sure I read that in meeting with the representatives of Pop Brixton, which occurred at Market House, they stated they had no issue with people bringing food in to eat.
> 
> I'm not gonna go searching for it, maybe somewhere back in this thread.


I said that. I'm fairly sure what he said.

ETA. In response to a question about it being public space they said people could wander in on their lunch break, read a book. Fairly but not 100% sure they mentioned eating their own sandwiches. Certainly mentioned not having to spend money to go in and hang about.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 17, 2015)

Duplicate post.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Winot said:


> Permaban due to "rules violations".
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/banlist/


I warned him for posting up some seriously dodgy personal stuff about me, so maybe that last warning triggered the automatic ban. If that's the case, it's not permanent, and the points will 'expire' soon. I'll check when I have a moment.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> To be fair, Editor hardly lead a charge against OTC on that thread. The owners dug their own hole and plenty of people were willing to assist in pushing them into it...but the feelings 'against' OTC were very much born of the owners early aggressive responses to some quite reasonable questions. Some of the piss taking got a bit nasty, but again, that really wasn't lead by anyone specific.


I just gave OTC a rather nice plug in a local paper too.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I said that. It's what he said.



Perhaps he was lying? Or they've sinced changed the rules because people actually took him up on it.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 17, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'm sure I read that in meeting with the representatives of Pop Brixton, which occurred at Market House, they stated they had no issue with people bringing food in to eat.
> 
> I'm not gonna go searching for it, maybe somewhere back in this thread.


maybe this?
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...road-development.322188/page-24#post-13937032


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

ddraig said:


> maybe this?
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...road-development.322188/page-24#post-13937032



Wonder if anyone took minutes...


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> You told us before in this thread you don't know anything about business, which is fine.





editor said:


> Where did I say that in this thread?





editor said:


> I clearly know something abut business because I've been successfully self employed for 20 years and still have the time run multiple non profit ventures.



This perhaps?




			
				editor said:
			
		

> I have no idea how to set up a crowdfunding appeal, neither do I have the slightest idea about how to set up a business, market a business or run a business.



Granted you said it waaaaay back in April of this year AND in a different thread.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 17, 2015)

It should never be underestimated quite how much one can learn in two months.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Granted you said it waaaaay back in April of this year AND in a different thread.


So it's been entirely striped of all context then and was about an entirely different subject? Nice work.


Rushy said:


> It should never be underestimated quite how much one can learn in two months.


Phew. I thought you might miss a chance to shit stir there. Well done.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 17, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I said that. I'm fairly sure what he said.
> 
> ETA. In response to a question about it being public space they said people could wander in on their lunch break, read a book. Fairly but not 100% sure they mentioned eating their own sandwiches. Certainly mentioned not having to spend money to go in and hang about.


Yes, I remember phillipe saying people could bring their lunch and sit and eat, or read a book...


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 17, 2015)

What happens in The Brixton News, Rumour and General Chat April 2015 thread stays in The Brixton News, Rumour and General Chat April 2015 thread


----------



## superfly101 (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> I've no idea what you're going no about to be honest, but it sure looked like a personal attack to me. You steamed in to accuse me of harbouring "irrational hatred" for a "poor girl" and then claimed I'd "gone off on a OTC perverted rant."



So... you've approached her with what?


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> So... you've approached her with what?


What the fuck are you on about? What should I approach the "poor girl" with anything?


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What happens in The Brixton News, Rumour and General Chat April 2015 thread stays in The Brixton News, Rumour and General Chat April 2015 thread


Still doing your best to disrupt this thread with the usual ad hominems, eh?


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

Oh, they want it to stay open even later.

Pop Brixton applies for Mon – Fri, 10am – 1am alcohol licence ahead of main bar opening at business campus


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

And this is very interesting: 


> Brixton Buzz understands that the local Brixton Brewery just down Brixton Station Road submitted an application to manage the main bar. Sadly this was unsuccessful.
> 
> Instead it seems that s11bar.london will be appearing as the main bar provision at Pop Brixton. The domain has been registered by Hannah Briley with an email address of Hannah@POPBrixton.org.


----------



## madolesance (Jun 17, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Yes, I remember phillipe saying people could bring their lunch and sit and eat, or read a book...



Oh yeah, I remember that statement. Pop Brixton open to all, to use as a public space.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 17, 2015)

It's not ad hominem; you asked a question and I answered it


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> And this is very interesting:



As a sub-contractor they may have issued her a pop brixton email account. Company I work for does that for some sub-contractor supervisors/managers.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It's not ad hominem; you asked a question and I answered it


The question was an ad hominem, like most of what you and your tiresome 'socking it to the Man' pals like to post most days.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> The question was an ad hominem, like most of what you and your tiresome 'socking it to the Man' pals like to post most days.



The only question I asked was:



SpamMisery said:


> This perhaps?



Saying "This perhaps?" in that context is not an ad hominem


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 17, 2015)

Jesus wept.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 17, 2015)

There really is no more to be said about Pop.

The facts are disputed, positions have been taken.

Let's move on.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh, they want it to stay open even later.
> 
> Pop Brixton applies for Mon – Fri, 10am – 1am alcohol licence ahead of main bar opening at business campus



from her online presence it appears ms briley is a bit of a mover and shaker in the music scene........


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 17, 2015)

leanderman said:


> There really is no more to be said about Pop.
> 
> The facts are disputed, positions have been taken.
> 
> Let's move on.


maybe a little premature as we have not yet heard from AlicePopBrixton


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 17, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The only question I asked was:
> 
> 
> 
> Saying "This perhaps?" in that context is not an ad hominem



There are some interesting points being made on this thread. But I have to trawl through your relentless Ed baiting. It was pleasant here when you did not post up for several weeks.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 17, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Yes, I remember phillipe saying people could bring their lunch and sit and eat, or read a book...



So that is three posters who heard him say this.

A friend of mine also said he saw someone being told not to bring there own food in by security.

So its not a public space.

Typical tactic of dealing with a potentially critical audience is to tell then what they want to hear. But not do it several weeks after.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 17, 2015)

Surely the thing to do is contact "Phillipe", whoever he is, saying that a no-food policy is being enforced by the security and that this differs from what he promised in public.

Then judge them by their response and subsequent actions.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 17, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Surely the thing to do is contact "Phillipe", whoever he is, saying that a no-food policy is being enforced by the security and that this differs from what he promised in public.
> 
> Then judge them by their response and subsequent actions.



Thats been done. It was asked at the meeting at Market House. Phillipe said that people could then a few weeks later there is a no food policy. So people can judge from that.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 17, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thats been done. It was asked at the meeting at Market House. Phillipe said that people could then a few weeks later there is a no food policy. So people can judge from that.



There are various potential explanations for that.

One is that "Phillipe" deliberately misled people.

One is that a security firm has been brought in who is used to enforcing such a policy at similar events, and Pop Brixton have failed to inform them that this one should be different.

Is a message to "Phillipe" or to Pop Brixton, asking them if they can explain what's happened, too much to ask? I doubt it would take much more time than writing a post on here.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 17, 2015)

editor said:


> So it's been entirely striped of all context then and was about an entirely different subject? Nice work.
> Phew. I thought you might miss a chance to shit stir there. Well done.



Actually, no, it wasn't about a different subject. Here is the link to the post in context:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/brixton-news-rumour-and-general-chat-april-2015.333614/page-7

Clicking back through the quotes reveals that the matter under discussion was the NZ wine thing. In fact you say so definitively yourself (post 113 on that thread):



> Nope, didn't say that either. I was referring to *this specific venture*. Please try and pay attention.




And then on this thread, you asked where you'd said you don't know the first thing about business:



editor said:


> Where did I say that in this thread?



And UTJ says it was when you were talking about NZ wine and kickstarter:



Up the junction said:


> About 30 pages ago when you weren't making sense about New Zealand wine and Kickstater. You can't remember what you've said?



(UTJ was wrong to say it was on this thread. It was on another thread, but the subject was the same.)



editor said:


> I can and that's why I'm asking you to show me the quote to provide some context.
> 
> I clearly know something abut business because I've been successfully self employed for 20 years and still have the time run multiple non profit ventures. But then I'm not all about the money.



You asked for the quote.

Spamisery provided it, noting that it was on another thread.

This provoked accusations of stirring, ad hominen attacks etc.

Maybe if Spamisery had provided, in his reply to your query, a link to the post in place on the other thread, so that everyone could check the context for themselves, this whole dreadful misunderstanding could have been avoided.

Of course I will be informed that this post is tedious point-scoring, etc etc. But it is setting out the facts so people can judge for themselves. I certainly intend to wholeheartedly support your new initiative of encouraging fact-based, substantiated assertions.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 17, 2015)

pop's licence granted with strings attached........


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Actually, no, it wasn't about a different subject. Here is the link to the post in context:


Yes, all this really has a lot to do with Pop Brixton.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> There are some interesting points being made on this thread. But I have to trawl through your relentless Ed baiting. It was pleasant here when you did not post up for several weeks.


Indeed. Things were noticeably better when certain people weren't posting, and I'm fed up seeing important Brixton discussions constantly being disrupted again and again with this off-topic personal shit.

So it's stopping *now*. If anyone continues with this kind of behaviour, they will be warned by PM and then banned. Enough is enough - and the matter is not up for debate. Consider this a general warning. 

From the FAQ: 





> The admin team run this site in their own time and for no profit, so unprovoked or sustained personal attacks may result in a ban


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So that is three posters who heard him say this.
> 
> A friend of mine also said he saw someone being told not to bring there own food in by security.


In that case we can assume that a no drink/no food policy is indeed in place. I can't say that surprises me, to be honest.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Surely the thing to do is contact "Phillipe", whoever he is, saying that a no-food policy is being enforced by the security and that this differs from what he promised in public.
> 
> Then judge them by their response and subsequent actions.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

You're certainly not allowed to smoke anywhere in the site. But that's a Good Thing imo.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> You're certainly not allowed to smoke anywhere in the site. But that's a Good Thing imo.



Agreed.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 18, 2015)

You are encouraged to blow a lot of hot air however


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 18, 2015)

Without wishing to be overly pedantic, is there signage at the entrance that prohibits entry for patrons bringing foodstuffs and drink?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 18, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Without wishing to be overly pedantic, is there signage at the entrance that prohibits entry for patrons bringing foodstuffs and drink?


apparently so:


newbie said:


> dunno, but there's a notice by the entrance, which I ignored.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Without wishing to be overly pedantic, is there signage at the entrance that prohibits entry for patrons bringing foodstuffs and drink?


If that's the case then it's more like a privately owned mall than an actual public space (or "green oasis" LOL), and Phillippe doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

I'll take a look later to confirm.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

Can't say I care that much whether people are welcome to bring their own food in. That said, once the offices are open it would seem a bit unreasonable to stop employees bringing a packed lunch and eating it outside. And hard to police a policy which allowed them to do so but no one else.

In their shoes I'd just let it happen and see if it causes any problems. I can't imagine *that* many people will want to do it.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Can't say I care that much whether people are welcome to bring their own food in.


The less well-off often rely on packed lunches and can rarely afford to graze in trendy eateries, so I care if they're allowed into this 'community space' or not.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

editor said:


> The less well-off often rely on packed lunches and can rarely afford to graze in trendy eateries, so I care if they're allowed into this 'community space' or not.



The less well-off probably have more important things to worry about.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The less well-off probably have more important things to worry about.


How unbelievably patronising. Why shouldn't local workers be able to enjoy their lunch at this "green oasis" too?


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

I think you are being patronising.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

I haven't been to Pop yet and am therefore reserving judgement until I see it.  I do have a problem though with public space being handed over to private companies if those companies can then control who goes in there and what they can do.  Naomi Klein writes about this in No Logo in a US context and I believe Anna Minton has done the same here.

A better model is that followed by the South Bank Centre: the Royal Festival Hall is a very welcoming space for all and you can take in your own food and drink.  You can see people who are clearly sleeping in insecure accommodation spending the whole day there undisturbed.  That's the type of city I want to live in.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> I haven't been to Pop yet and am therefore reserving judgement until I see it.  I do have a problem though with public space being handed over to private companies if those companies can then control who goes in there and what they can do.  Naomi Klein writes about this in No Logo in a US context and I believe Anna Minton has done the same here.
> 
> A better model is that followed by the South Bank Centre: the Royal Festival Hall is a very welcoming space for all and you can take in your own food and drink.  You can see people who are clearly sleeping in insecure accommodation spending the whole day there undisturbed.  That's the type of city I want to live in.


It's a growing phenomenon in the UK and it's something I'm totally opposed to.



> Public spaces in Britain's cities fall into private hands
> Over the past decade, large parts of Britain's cities have been redeveloped as privately-owned estates, extending corporate control over some of the country's busiest squares and thoroughfares. These developments are no longer simply enclosed malls like Westfield in White City or business districts like Broadgate in the City of London – they are spaces open to the sky which appear to be entirely public to casual passers-by...
> 
> Critics also warn that these spaces are being designed on a corporate model that favours ornament – and high levels of footfall for retailers – while community spirit and sustainability are not a priority.





> Occupy activist Naomi Colvin noted that POPS are the part of ‘a vision of society in which you work and shop. At times when you are not working or shopping, you may go to restaurants…but there is no scope for people to do something of their own – to do something spontaneous’.
> 
> http://www.catch21.co.uk/2014/02/privately-owned-public-spaces-losing-control-cities


----------



## Dan U (Jun 18, 2015)

There is definitely a marked difference between say the south bank area and the area around the mayors office. 

One is generally relaxed and the other has prowling security looking for wrong doing, as it's private land.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The less well-off probably have more important things to worry about.


Thanks a bundle, pal.  One of the things which excludes me from spending time somewhere is being not allowed to bring my own food and at least a soft drink.  I'm not a gannet, but I do have (properly diagnosed) food allergies as well as a low income.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Seems pretty clear.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

editor said:


> The less well-off often rely on packed lunches and can rarely afford to graze in trendy eateries, so I care if they're allowed into this 'community space' or not.


The less well off are also proportionally much more likely to be affected by the smoking ban but I don't consider that a reason to be outraged by it.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Thanks a bundle, pal.  One of the things which excludes me from spending time somewhere is being not allowed to bring my own food and at least a soft drink.  I'm not a gannet, but I do have (properly diagnosed) food allergies as well as a low income.



Would you want to spend time in there?


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The less well off are also proportionally much more likely to be affected by the smoking ban but I don't consider that a reason to be outraged by it.


The smoking ban is a legal requirement. Enforcing a rule that bans people from enjoying their own packed lunches and drinks in this new 'community space' is a commercial decision.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Would you want to spend time in there?


Perhaps she wants to meet friends there?

Perhaps she wants to imagine herself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything she's seen before; it’s [sic] own world. She wants to feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. Around her people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and she stands there with a beer in one hand, and her packed lunch in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

I'd feel uncomfortable taking food into what is very much a food court, where traders are trying to make a living.

It strikes me as a commercial space and not like Brockwell Park or Windrush square where I would happily eat my own food.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I'd feel uncomfortable taking food into what is very much a food court, where traders are trying to make a living.


That makes sense except that's not how the space was sold to locals.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

editor said:


> The smoking ban is a legal requirement. Enforcing a rule that bans people from enjoying their own packed lunches and drinks in this new 'community space' is a commercial decision.


Smoking ban is a legal requirement for enclosed or substantially enclosed premises. The definition of both includes a roof.


*Smoke Free Locations*


General

*What Do the Terms Enclosed and Substantially Enclosed Mean for Smokers*
In the Health Act of 2006 clear explanations are made which show that any premises which are used as a workplace or public place must be smoke free. These enclosed or substantially enclosed structures include any places that are either permanent or temporary in nature, including tents, marquees and even canvas awnings.

Enclosed: Anywhere with a roof / ceiling will be considered enclosed, regardless of whether the structure is a permanent one or has been placed temporarily.

Substantially Enclosed: This term includes any structures which may have a roof or ceiling such as a gazebo yet includes an opening or gap which is less than the total area of the wall space. These openings do not include windows and doors. Examples might include some bus shelters.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Smoking ban is a legal requirement for enclosed or substantially enclosed premises. The definition of both includes a roof.


I could have sworn a saw a roof covering a large part of Pop Brixton with almost all of the units being enclosed.


> All areas open to the public including workplaces are considered smoke free zones where they are enclosed or substantially enclosed.
> http://www.smokefreeengland.co.uk/what-do-i-do/quick-guide/



So why do you think they have a security-enforced drink/food ban?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

editor said:


> I could have sworn a saw a roof covering a large part of Pop Brixton.


Yes. It would be illegal to smoke in that when the retractable sides are raised and sliding doors at the end closed. But that is just a part of the site as I'm sure you have grasped.

It would also be illegal to smoke in any of the units.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> I haven't been to Pop yet and am therefore reserving judgement until I see it.  I do have a problem though with public space being handed over to private companies if those companies can then control who goes in there and what they can do.  Naomi Klein writes about this in No Logo in a US context and I believe Anna Minton has done the same here.
> 
> A better model is that followed by the South Bank Centre: the Royal Festival Hall is a very welcoming space for all and you can take in your own food and drink.  You can see people who are clearly sleeping in insecure accommodation spending the whole day there undisturbed.  That's the type of city I want to live in.


Festival Hall is one of the best things in London. A well functioning example of the "people's palace" concept.

The Barbican is a bit similar in that you can feel free to sit around in there all day without spending any money. Not sure whether you'd be allowed to bring in your own food and drink.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I'd feel uncomfortable taking food into what is very much a food court, where traders are trying to make a living.
> 
> It strikes me as a commercial space and not like Brockwell Park or Windrush square where I would happily eat my own food.



Yep, understandable if private companies selling food in a commercial space dissuade punters from bringing in their own food.

The issue is whether Lambeth should be handing over public space to become a commercial space.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> Yep, understandable if private companies selling food in a commercial space dissuade punters from bringing in their own food.
> 
> The issue is whether Lambeth should be handing over public space to become a commercial space.


Like the skating rink?


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Would you want to spend time in there?


I'd at least like some choice in the matter.  However, there's a lot of savoury food there which I really can't have without writing off the next day.

I'd hope that you wouldn't want me to have to sit with only a drink while my hypothetical friends stuffed their faces as well as drinking?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> View attachment 72857
> 
> Seems pretty clear.



What a pretty sign.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Like the skating rink?



Fair point.  And I can't explain why that was OK whereas this aspect of Pop makes me feel queasy.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Festival Hall is one of the best things in London. A well functioning example of the "people's palace" concept.
> 
> The Barbican is a bit similar in that you can feel free to sit around in there all day without spending any money. Not sure whether you'd be allowed to bring in your own food and drink.


In both of those places, at least at not-so-busy times, you can bring and consume your own food and drink and enjoy it, although not AFAIK in the auditoria, and not near the exhibits, which IMHO is fair enough.  However, it's preferred that you buy some of what's sold there and (if you must) consume your own discreetly.

Last time that the bookgroup was at the Festival Hall,  Ms T spent ages trying to get hold of a corkscrew for one of the wine bottles, but they were fine with us drinking our own wine and sharing our own food.  Then again, we were quite well behaved, and didn't look poor etc.    That was on one of the open air balconies BTW.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The less well off are also proportionally much more likely to be affected by the smoking ban but I don't consider that a reason to be outraged by it.


*shrug*  I've never smoked (at all, before anyone asks whether that includes the herb) nor have most of my immediate family, due to a tendancy to respiratory problems.  A smoking ban in that place makes it more, not less, accessible for me.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 18, 2015)

The smoking and the food are different issues. The food is all about saying its alright to eat here, but you must buy from here. The smoking ban is just a general policy, not so unusual these days and not one that bothers me and I am a smoker. It would only be comparable if you could smoke in there, but only if you bought your fags from there.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> What a pretty sign.


was thinking that too!
all that money and investment and no branded signs? 
maybe that's the job for the intern


----------



## ddraig (Jun 18, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> The smoking and the food are different issues. The food is all about saying its alright to eat here, but you must buy from here. The smoking ban is just a general policy, not so unusual these days and not one that bothers me and I am a smoker. It would only be comparable if you could smoke in there, but only if you bought your fags from there.


yeah, classic obfuscation of the issue


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> The issue is whether Lambeth should be handing over public space to become a commercial space.



Public space isn't the same thing as publicly owned space... was it ever a public space (does a car park count)?

Issue for me would be whether it's been promoted as something different to what it's become in reality. If it's true that people were told they were free to bring in their own food and drink, then it's wrong if the reality does not match. But as I said above they should be given the opportunity to respond before being judged.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Public space isn't the same thing as publicly owned space... was it ever a public space (does a car park count)?
> 
> Issue for me would be whether it's been promoted as something different to what it's become in reality. If it's true that people were told they were free to bring in their own food and drink, then it's wrong if the reality does not match. But as I said above they should be given the opportunity to respond before being judged.


I'm not sure what they're supposed to respond to. Phillippe tells a public meeting that people can bring their own food and drink in. People then give examples of people being turfed away with their own food and drink, and this is backed up as official policy, courtesy of a sign saying no food or drink.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2015)

They can have the opportunity to explain why this has happened, and whether they are going to rectify things. As I already said.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> They can have the opportunity to explain why this has happened, and whether they are going to rectify things. As I already said.


or they prob won't bother engaging as it's below them and they're too busy making money!
and if another 3/4/5 more people say they were refused would this be good enough for you or will you only accept a direct acknowledgement from those in charge?


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yes. It would be illegal to smoke in that when the retractable sides are raised and sliding doors at the end closed. But that is just a part of the site as I'm sure you have grasped.
> 
> It would also be illegal to smoke in any of the units.


FYI: the sign by the entrance says, "*It is against the law to smoke in these premises*."


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> They can have the opportunity to explain why this has happened, and whether they are going to rectify things. As I already said.


Why don't you drop them a line and ask?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

editor said:


> FYI: the sign by the entrance says, "*It is against the law to smoke in these premises*."


I know. I'm eating a crepe here right now (highly recommended BTW). What is your point? That I'm wrong about where it is legal to smoke because the sticker says so?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 18, 2015)

what about the food? that's what the original topic was
no one is bothered about smoking in there


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

ddraig said:


> or they prob won't bother engaging as it's below them and they're too busy making money!
> and if another 3/4/5 more people say they were refused would this be good enough for you or will you only accept a direct acknowledgement from those in charge?



I suspect they are losing money, with the very high rents. 

Which may help explain the no-food policy. 

Going to ask them now.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Like the skating rink?



That was slightly different. Lambeth Council was running out of ideas in which to house the 'temporary Streatham ice rink.' The situation was so so desperate at one point that the Rookery in Streatham was genuinely considered.

The Streatham Hub project guaranteed 'continuity of ice' for users. An ice rink had to be open in Streatham at all times, else Tesco couldn't get to build the massive store.

Pope's Road became the only option left - Council owned land that wasn't being used. And so this wasn't quite a public space becoming a commercial space. It filled the planning requirements of the Council contract.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2015)

ddraig said:


> or they prob won't bother engaging as it's below them and they're too busy making money!
> and if another 3/4/5 more people say they were refused would this be good enough for you or will you only accept a direct acknowledgement from those in charge?


If they don't reply, let them be judged.

I don't need any more people to say they were refused. A photo of the sign is posted above. I am not seeking acknowledgement from those in charge that this obviously active policy is active. Try reading what I've actually written.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2015)

editor said:


> Why don't you drop them a line and ask?


1) I don't actually know who "Phillipe" is or what his place in the organisation is
2) I wasn't at the meeting where it's claimed they said what they said
3) I'm not the one accusing them of deliberately misleading the public
4) Tricky Skills has already done so via Twitter.
5) And I see leanderman is about to do the same

I trust this answers your question in full.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

The site manager, Kwaku, says: 'You can bring in light food, like a patty and a drink, but not a meal, like a hamburger and chips'.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The site manager, Kwaku, says: 'You can bring in light food, like a patty and a drink, but not a meal, like a hamburger and chips'.


Is he going to remove the sign that contradicts this?


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The site manager, Kwaku, says: 'You can bring in light food, like a patty and a drink, but not a meal, like a hamburger and chips'.


That contradicts the post on the Blog where someone was turned away with just an orange drink in their hand. Still at least we know now: their food and drink policies are run along similar lines to that of a corporate 'open space' or shopping mall.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Lots of architects currently being shown round by Phillipe


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Lots of architects currently being shown round by Phillipe


That's nice. I wonder where they've all come from.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 18, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> That was slightly different. Lambeth Council was running out of ideas in which to house the 'temporary Streatham ice rink.' The situation was so so desperate at one point that the Rookery in Streatham was genuinely considered.
> 
> The Streatham Hub project guaranteed 'continuity of ice' for users. An ice rink had to be open in Streatham at all times, else Tesco couldn't get to build the massive store.
> 
> Pope's Road became the only option left - Council owned land that wasn't being used. And so this wasn't quite a public space becoming a commercial space. It filled the planning requirements of the Council contract.


Didn't they knock down the car park to clear space for the Ice Rink? That's how I remember it anyway.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The site manager, Kwaku, says: 'You can bring in light food, like a patty and a drink, but not a meal, like a hamburger and chips'.



This, the obviously crappy sign, and Philippe's reported words, all smack of a cobbled-together policy being invented/enforced on the fly.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Didn't they knock down the car park to clear space for the Ice Rink? That's how I remember it anyway.



Yeah the car park was deemed dangerous so moving the rink in there killed two birds with one stone.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Public space isn't the same thing as publicly owned space... was it ever a public space (does a car park count)?



Point taken - we don't expect the public to be able to wander down railway lines with their picnic after all.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> Yeah the car park was deemed dangerous so moving the rink in their killed two birds with one stone.


A bit like the serious fire risk in Carlton Mansions then.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

CH1 said:


> A bit like the serious fire risk in Carlton Mansions then.



Are you suggesting the car park wasn't dangerous?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> Are you suggesting the car park wasn't dangerous?


No - I'm suggesting that the council sometimes come up with health and safety excuses or justifications for doing silly or controversial things.

Moreover I wonder if any money at all was spent on maintenance at the car park over the last 15 years of its life.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The site manager, Kwaku, says: 'You can bring in light food, like a patty and a drink, but not a meal, like a hamburger and chips'.


Where would a smallish lidded bowl of salade nicoise fit on that continuum, I wonder?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

Fingers said:


> And you know what constant noise blights me 24 hours?  Cars. With their whining and spluttering and their honking horns.
> 
> But I do not complain because I chose to live near a busy road so I am not going to campaign to have cars banned from the area...
> 
> though come the revolution... any frivolous noise complainers with cars will have them taken off them and they will turned into loud sound systems.



Dunno about cars, but that fucking pig-copter *REALLY* pisses me off!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Tulse Hill is Death Race 2000



At least once a week, at about 2am, I hear 2 or 3 sports bikes doing "laps" along Tulse Hill, then back along Norwood Rd and Dulwich Rd/Water Lane.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Where would a smallish lidded bowl of salade nicoise fit on that continuum, I wonder?



Fine. I reckon.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Where would a smallish lidded bowl of salade nicoise fit on that continuum, I wonder?



Just don't make a meal of it.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Where would a smallish lidded bowl of salade nicoise fit on that continuum, I wonder?


What color is the bowl?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> What color is the bowl?


are you a yank?


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> What color is the bowl?


Fluorescent tie dye effect, as if it matters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Yes but you seem to really irrationally hate this poor girl and her located in a shipping container crowd funded wine import business!



Possibly because the reality clashes with the originally-stated ethos, any emotional tic isn't "irrational", but perfectly rational and understandable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> what's a peverted rant?



I'll tell you what it is: Not nearly as interesting as it sounds!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> Unusual to read such a 'free market' approach on here.



it's not a "free market" approach. Sink-or-swim pre-existed even primitive capitalism. You sell stuff that people want, and you swim. You sell stuff that either people don't want, or is inferior to what others are selling, and you sink.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 18, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Fluorescent tie dye effect, as if it matters.


Cover it in a brown paper bag and you should be fine.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

Winot said:


> Are you suggesting the car park wasn't dangerous?



Do not want to derail this thread but the issue of Tescos insisting that Lambeth move the ice rink off the Streatham site is complicated.

The original agreement with the Mayor ( then Ken) was that the ice rink at Streatham would stay in place until the new one was built. Tescos bullied the Council into finding an off site temporary ice rink. It was easier for Tescos to not have to build the new rink keeping the old rink in place.

This happened when by a coincidence  Council officers decided that the car park was dangerous. This was contested by the market traders. Advice they got was that remedial works would make it safe. This is why CH1 makes comparison with Carlton Mansions. Once officers had decided on a course of action that was that.The "Cooperative Council" , "Co production of services" etc all goes out the window when the top bods in Regen decide what is best.Whatever ward Cllrs think. 

The fact that the sudden dangerous state of the car park was discovered when officers were desperately seeking to do Tescos bidding is of course coincidental.

Also not relevant is that Tesco is a powerful multinational company and Brixton market traders are not. Lambeth officers decide these things in a balanced way.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Cover it in a brown paper bag and you should be fine.


Quite right, I was just testing.  It's really a far more tasteful cobalt blue.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Do not want to derail this thread but the issue of Tescos insisting that Lambeth move the ice rink off the Streatham site is complicated.
> 
> The original agreement with the Mayor ( then Ken) was that the ice rink at Streatham would stay in place until the new one was built. Tescos bullied the Council into finding an off site temporary ice rink. It was easier for Tescos to not have to build the new rink keeping the old rink in place.
> 
> ...



Do you have any evidence to back this up?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Do you have any evidence to back this up?



Read the post. Advice the market traders had was that remedial works would have sorted this out.

Secondly even if the car park was demolished the Council could have kept the space as a ground level car park.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Do you have any evidence to back this up?



Why do you come on these boards?


----------



## Belushi (Jun 18, 2015)

> The original agreement with the Mayor ( then Ken) was that the ice rink at Streatham would stay in place until the new one was built. Tescos bullied the Council into finding an off site temporary ice rink. It was easier for Tescos to not have to build the new rink keeping the old rink in place.



Gutted to see that art deco frontage go, yet Tesco had to build around the bog standard church next door.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Do not want to derail this thread but the issue of Tescos insisting that Lambeth move the ice rink off the Streatham site is complicated.
> 
> The original agreement with the Mayor ( then Ken) was that the ice rink at Streatham would stay in place until the new one was built. Tescos bullied the Council into finding an off site temporary ice rink. It was easier for Tescos to not have to build the new rink keeping the old rink in place.
> 
> ...



Could they have done as good a job as they have done with the new ice rink and sports centre had they been forced to build around it?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Could they have done as good a job as they have done with the new ice rink and sports centre had they been forced to build around it?



Yes.

Its what they agreed with Mayor.

Tescos operate like a private developer. Its were democracy falls down. Tesco are a multinational outfit with more resources than a little Council like Lambeth. Like a big developer they start works then start arguing about the "onerous" requirements of the original agreements.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Gutted to see that art deco frontage go, yet Tesco had to build around the bog standard church next door.



You cant mess around with churches. The big development in Fitsrovia on the old hospital site they had to preserve the old hospital chapel and build around it.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Yes.



Maybe. 

Anyway, it was great to have an ice rink in Brixton for a few years. I miss it.


----------



## soupdragon (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Could they have done as good a job as they have done with the new ice rink and sports centre had they been forced to build around it?


Ken forced Tesco to agree to develop in phases – the ice rink first and then build the rest of it around it. It would have been the same development, but phased. If I remember right, Tesco then blamed the economic crisis for making the cost of building in phases too expensive.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Anyway, it was great to have an ice rink in Brixton for a few years. I miss it.



The market traders were not so happy. 

At that time we had regular meetings with a Brixton Town Centre manager- local residents, Brixton Society, market traders and the then active Friends of Brixton market. We all agreed to support the market traders in opposing the loss of the car park. 

As someone from Brixton Society said to me recently after we made our opposition clear that was the last time the Town Centre manager held a meeting with the reps of the local community.


----------



## soupdragon (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As someone from Brixton Society said to me recently after we made our opposition clear that was the last time the Town Centre manager held a meeting with the reps of the local community.



I think that was the meeting where a council officer criticised people for "not having bought their tickets for gentrification".


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Read the post. Advice the market traders had was that remedial works would have sorted this out.
> 
> Secondly even if the car park was demolished the Council could have kept the space as a ground level car park.





Gramsci said:


> Why do you come on these boards?



I think, perhaps, you misunderstood my post. My question asking for proof relates to these claims:



Gramsci said:


> This happened when by a *coincidence*  Council officers decided that the car park was dangerous.... The fact that the sudden dangerous state of the car park was discovered when officers were desperately seeking to do Tescos bidding is of course *coincidental*.... Also *not relevant* is that Tesco is a powerful multinational company and Brixton market traders are not. Lambeth officers decide these things in a balanced way.



My interest is, if you can prove these are true, there is a serious case to be answered. The statement about 'remedial works' and a 'ground level carpark' requires evidence that later evidence didn't change the advice regarding remedial works and that a ground level carpark was less financially viable (or whatever) than what has come to pass.

Some times I'm asking serious questions


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> I think that was the meeting where a council officer criticised people for "not having bought their tickets for gentrification".



Yep that was the one. 

I remember now.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> Ken forced Tesco to agree to develop in phases – the ice rink first and then build the rest of it around it. It would have been the same development, but phased. If I remember right, Tesco then blamed the economic crisis for making the cost of building in phases too expensive.



Well, in April, they did a £6billion write-off, largely relating to property.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Why do you come on these boards?



Because he's a self-deluded twat?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I think, perhaps, you misunderstood my post. My question asking for proof relates to these claims:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is going back a long time now. 

You are going to have to take my word for it or not. 

The market trader got someone to look at the Council report into the state of the car park and he came up with a series of recommendation that would have meant that the car park could be kept. 

The Council ( and this is the similarity with the Carlton Mansions case) refused to even contemplate and alternative.

The argument moved on to the benefits of having the ice rink on the site. 

Dealing with the Council is Kafkaesque at time. Kafka knew what he was taking about as his day job was as a state bureaucrat.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> n opposing the loss of the car park.



What has been the consequence of the loss of the car park?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Well, in April, they did a £6billion write-off, largely relating to property.



They now find themselves in competition with cut price outfits like Lidl and Poundland. The model of huge expansion of stores failed.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> What has been the consequence of the loss of the car park?



According to the traders I have talked to this meant that people went elsewhere to buy large amounts of groceries. It did not effect the eateries.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> They know find themselves in competition with cut price outfits like Lidl and Poundland.



Definitely a factor.

Also, I'm struck by how - in my part of Brixton - Sainsbury secured the best sites and Tesco got the runt ones.

ETA: ... suggesting Tesco's property team were not that hot


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> According to the traders I have talked to this meant that people went elsewhere to buy large amounts of groceries.



On the up side, (slightly) less pollution in Brixton!


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 18, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is going back a long time now.
> 
> You are going to have to take my word for it or not.
> 
> ...



Thank you. It wasn't so painful to be civil was it?

Unfortunately I can't just take your word for it, but I recognise that may have been the original advice. However, who was the person offering the original advice? Did they have a vested interest? Is there an explanation from the council as to why the original advice wasn't acceptable? Also, what was the outcome of the secondary ice rink discussion?

My concern here, is that it's easy to blame the local authority, but those of us who don't have the benefit of your experience, aren't predisposed to accepting these kind of arguments on face value - that is not to suggest they aren't true, just that what is presented is not indisputable evidence of their veracity


----------



## leanderman (Jun 18, 2015)

If the council did lie about the car park, why?

For a kickback from Tesco?

To destroy the market traders and bring in eateries?

To build a private block and take a kickback from a developer?


----------



## soupdragon (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> If the council did lie about the car park, why?


The council didn't "lie" - these 'coincidences' occurred within larger strategic contexts – which are based in part on the council preferring one constituent over another. You can overstate or understate the extent of a technical problem to fit. It was a judgement call about a shabby but functional car park that the council had run down for years to the extent that the top floor was out of bounds, but it still provided lots of parking space for people coming and buying their weekly food from the market. The council made a judgement about it based on both placating Tesco (and the council was over a barrel, they had done a survey of 10 or more potential sites - including an MI5 facility in Streatham!), and partly on a decision to see Brixton Market as shifting away from a working market that provided food staples (as the market traders claimed it should be - and strongly - they shut their shops and marched on the town hall over it), and more to a leisure market that catered to a more middle class audience. The technical issues about the overall unfitness of the car park were then just a part of justifying those larger strategic decisions. The council didn't see the market traders as having history on their side (i.e. of being able to mount a sufficiently damaging campaign against them), and a report about a car park just gave that a technically justifiable basis.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> The council didn't "lie" - these 'coincidences' occurred within larger strategic contexts – which are based in part on the council preferring one constituent over another. You can overstate or understate the extent of a technical problem to fit. It was a judgement call about a shabby but functional car park that the council had run down for years to the extent that the top floor was out of bounds, but it still provided lots of parking space for people coming and buying their weekly food from the market. The council made a judgement about it based on both placating Tesco (and the council was over a barrel, they had done a survey of 10 or more potential sites - including an MI5 facility in Streatham!), and partly on a decision to see Brixton Market as shifting away from a working market that provided food staples (as the market traders claimed it should be - and strongly - they shut their shops and marched on the town hall over it), and more to a leisure market that catered to a more middle class audience. The technical issues about the overall unfitness of the car park were then just a part of justifying those larger strategic decisions. The council didn't see the market traders as having history on their side (i.e. of being able to mount a sufficiently damaging campaign against them), and a report about a car park just gave that a technically justifiable basis.


That's pretty much as I saw it. It appears that Lambeth acted in a politically opportunistic way to arrive at a set of circumstances that best suited their preferences, albeit in a bumbling along kind of way rather than a Grand Conspiracy.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 18, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Thank you. It wasn't so painful to be civil was it?
> 
> Unfortunately I can't just take your word for it, but I recognise that may have been the original advice. However, who was the person offering the original advice? Did they have a vested interest? Is there an explanation from the council as to why the original advice wasn't acceptable? Also, what was the outcome of the secondary ice rink discussion?
> 
> My concern here, is that it's easy to blame the local authority, but those of us who don't have the benefit of your experience, aren't predisposed to accepting these kind of arguments on face value - that is not to suggest they aren't true, just that what is presented is not indisputable evidence of their veracity



soupdragon post #1492 covers this. Nothing much to add to his post.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 18, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because he's a self-deluded twat?



FYI:



editor said:


> I'm fed up seeing important Brixton discussions constantly being disrupted again and again with this off-topic personal shit.
> 
> So it's stopping *now*. If anyone continues with this kind of behaviour, they will be warned by PM and then banned. Enough is enough - and the matter is not up for debate. Consider this a general warning.


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> FYI:


Please use the REPORTED POST function rather than adding further disruption to this thread. Thank you.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> If the council did lie about the car park, why?
> 
> For a kickback from Tesco?
> 
> ...



A large part of the decision was the need to please Tesco. The Hub had been dragging on for over a decade. We were in the early stages of the post-crash and Tesco looked as though it was losing both interest and patience in the Streatham project.

This would have been a disaster for Lambeth Council. The ice rink and leisure centre both needed upgrading / replacing. The Council couldn't afford to do this - Tesco was the perfect solution.

But for all of this to happen, Lambeth Council had to provide Tesco with a site for a temporary ice rink. There was no major conspiracy or cover up here. Just a race against time to find a piece of land in the borough that could hold the temporary structure.

Pope's Road was convenient for Lambeth Council on many fronts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

teuchter said:


> FYI:



Speaking of twats...


----------



## editor (Jun 18, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Speaking of twats...


You have already been warned once. Please stop because this kind of thing is just ruining this forum - and it has to stop.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 18, 2015)

editor said:


> You have already been warned once. Please stop because this kind of thing is just ruining this forum - and it has to stop.



I entirely agree that it has to stop.
I'm also convinced that it won't, because some posters - usually the same handful - will always seek to criticise anything that you say/post.


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I entirely agree that it has to stop.
> I'm also convinced that it won't, because some posters - usually the same handful - will always seek to criticise anything that you say/post.


Well, let's give it a go. I am quite determined to ensure that the same people making the same personal attacks week in and week out will change their behaviour.

I am fed up seeing threads about important topics being trashed by off-topic and/or disruptive personal beef that is of little interest to the vast majority of users .

The same applies to reported posts in this forum: anyone demanding that mods ban someone in their reported posts may find themselves being warned too.

Anyone wishing to discuss this further should take the matter to the feedback forum as it has nothing to do with Pop Brixton.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 19, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> The council didn't "lie" - these 'coincidences' occurred within larger strategic contexts – which are based in part on the council preferring one constituent over another. You can overstate or understate the extent of a technical problem to fit. It was a judgement call about a shabby but functional car park that the council had run down for years to the extent that the top floor was out of bounds, but it still provided lots of parking space for people coming and buying their weekly food from the market. The council made a judgement about it based on both placating Tesco (and the council was over a barrel, they had done a survey of 10 or more potential sites - including an MI5 facility in Streatham!), and partly on a decision to see Brixton Market as shifting away from a working market that provided food staples (as the market traders claimed it should be - and strongly - they shut their shops and marched on the town hall over it), and more to a leisure market that catered to a more middle class audience. The technical issues about the overall unfitness of the car park were then just a part of justifying those larger strategic decisions. The council didn't see the market traders as having history on their side (i.e. of being able to mount a sufficiently damaging campaign against them), and a report about a car park just gave that a technically justifiable basis.



Sometimes a car park is just a car park.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 19, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> The council didn't "lie" - these 'coincidences' occurred within larger strategic contexts – which are based in part on the council preferring one constituent over another.


Are you of the preferred or non preferred kind?


----------



## Ms T (Jun 19, 2015)

There's still a car park of sorts on Brixton Station Road isn't there?  Next to Pop Brixton.  I've walked past it loads of times.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 19, 2015)

ha ha ha


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

Ms T said:


> There's still a car park of sorts on Brixton Station Road isn't there?  Next to Pop Brixton.  I've walked past it loads of times.


It's tiny compared to what was there before.


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ha ha ha



Jesus.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 19, 2015)

it was all done on 'zero budget' y'know? 'but in the best possible way'


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ha ha ha




I've read every post on this bloody thread. I've tried to understand the different views and opinions.

And then this one video comes along


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ha ha ha



I haven't been to Brixton for over 20 years. It's a different planet now


----------



## Belushi (Jun 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ha ha ha


----------



## soupdragon (Jun 19, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Sometimes a car park is just a car park.


except ... when it's an ice rink


----------



## soupdragon (Jun 19, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Are you of the preferred or non preferred kind?


Neither. And your reason for focusing on me is... to make out everyone should only ever argue for their own interests? or?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ha ha ha



stay the fuck out of Thornton Heath. I see you creepin' around!


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 19, 2015)

not you nanker, the whole video thing


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 19, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> I've read every post on this bloody thread. I've tried to understand the different views and opinions.
> 
> And then this one video comes along



Pop have proudly posted it on their fb page....


----------



## ddraig (Jun 19, 2015)

is the crap editing deliberate in that vid? like the wanker making a 'joke' about looking at his wrist 

and why are they lying about the cost?

looking forward to defence of the video!


----------



## leanderman (Jun 19, 2015)

Bless him. He makes me feel very old.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 19, 2015)

Is anyone still willing to give Pop Brixton the benefit of the doubt now?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 19, 2015)

The video is indefensible.

It wasn't made by Pop Brixton though.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 19, 2015)

proper vibrant. who saw the authentic tin container social club thing. it's like something out of cuba 'n shit. Random! this vibrant hub is AWESOME. 

close the city. 

culture in this once glorious city is dying.

i still think this all went wrong when speedy noodles went.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 19, 2015)

teuchter said:


> The video is indefensible.
> 
> It wasn't made by Pop Brixton though.



They are very pleased with it though, from their web site:
_"Check out this super video about Pop Brixton from the peeps at Top Jaw Films and see what all the fuss is about for yourself! Thanks guys @jesse_burgess@willwarr. Link in bio!"_


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

teuchter said:


> The video is indefensible.
> 
> It wasn't made by Pop Brixton though.


They clearly feel that the video is a very good representation of what POP is all about.

Their Facebook page implores readers to "Check out this awesome video from the guys at TopJaw to see what is on offer at Pop!"

Yeah! Awesome!


----------



## han (Jun 19, 2015)

That video is terrible. Toecurling. It actually makes me want to steer well clear of the place.


----------



## newbie (Jun 19, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> The council didn't "lie" - these 'coincidences' occurred within larger strategic contexts – which are based in part on the council preferring one constituent over another. You can overstate or understate the extent of a technical problem to fit. It was a judgement call about a shabby but functional car park that the council had run down for years to the extent that the top floor was out of bounds, but it still provided lots of parking space for people coming and buying their weekly food from the market. The council made a judgement about it based on both placating Tesco (and the council was over a barrel, they had done a survey of 10 or more potential sites - including an MI5 facility in Streatham!), and partly on a decision to see Brixton Market as shifting away from a working market that provided food staples (as the market traders claimed it should be - and strongly - they shut their shops and marched on the town hall over it), and more to a leisure market that catered to a more middle class audience. The technical issues about the overall unfitness of the car park were then just a part of justifying those larger strategic decisions. *The council didn't see the market traders as having history on their side* (i.e. of being able to mount a sufficiently damaging campaign against them), and a report about a car park just gave that a technically justifiable basis.



They're right, sadly.  The car park could go because the fruit/veg street market has lost relevance and popularity as unimaginative traders have been running it into the ground for years.  While other markets appear able to thrive- cheaper, better range and (to my eye) better quality, Brixton remains expensive, tired and dull, with an almost seasonally unaffected consistency.  People used to come from all over, as they gradually gave up the car park became an increasingly redundant eyesore. That's the tragedy.

Now people come from all over for something different, and not by car.  The traders are going to notice at some point.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 19, 2015)

newbie said:


> They're right, sadly.  The car park could go because the fruit/veg street market has lost relevance and popularity as unimaginative traders have been running it into the ground for years.  While other markets appear able to thrive- cheaper, better range and (to my eye) better quality, Brixton remains expensive, tired and dull, with an almost seasonally unaffected consistency.  People used to come from all over, as they gradually gave up the car park became an increasingly redundant eyesore. That's the tragedy.
> 
> Now people come from all over for something different, and not by car.  The traders are going to notice at some point.



Some of my neighbours prefer the Elephant and Castle market.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 19, 2015)

editor said:


> It's tiny compared to what was there before.



I can't remember what the actual max. capacity for Popes' Rd car-park was, but it was over 100.


----------



## newbie (Jun 19, 2015)

no, no


leanderman said:


> Some of my neighbours prefer the ********* market.



the last thing that one needs is being bigged up on a forum.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 19, 2015)

han said:


> That video is terrible. Toecurling. It actually makes me want to steer well clear of the place.



Toecurling and dull. I couldn't finish it. 

Talking to the traders in there is more interesting. For example: 

The Mexican-Polish couple from Brixton road who do tacos and had been trading on Station rd for a couple of years. 

As had the Koi Ramen people. 

And then there's the French-African guy from Paris who does pretty decent jerk and salt cod.


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

I felt compelled to share the love: Totes amazeballs! Pop Brixton container park celebrated in high-fiving video


----------



## Maggot (Jun 19, 2015)

I can't believe that video only has 5 thumbs down. 



editor said:


> I warned him for posting up some seriously dodgy personal stuff about me, so maybe that last warning triggered the automatic ban. If that's the case, it's not permanent, and the points will 'expire' soon. I'll check when I have a moment.


It says banned forever on the Banlist.


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

Maggot said:


> I can't believe that video only has 5 thumbs down.
> 
> 
> It says banned forever on the Banlist.


It's until the 'points' expire. Please take this to the feedback forum for any further discussion.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jun 19, 2015)

I repeat what I said on facebook.

How is "Pop" a "hub of creativity"? When did selling food, drink and clothes - which is what was shown in as much of the film as I could bear to watch - qualify as "creative"?

It used to be plain old "retail."


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jun 19, 2015)

fishfinger said:


> I haven't been to Brixton for over 20 years. It's a different planet now


They are reinventing fish 'n chips.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 19, 2015)

editor said:


> I felt compelled to share the love: Totes amazeballs! Pop Brixton container park celebrated in high-fiving video



The epitome of edgy .........if c-beebies do a kids version of masterchef that lad'll be perfect for the greg wallace role


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 19, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> They are reinventing fish 'n chips.


Yup........ pov food for the minted 
remember mandelson
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7928328.stm


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 19, 2015)

ddraig said:


> is the crap editing deliberate in that vid? like the wanker making a 'joke' about looking at his wrist



The video sucks dogs cocks. Anyone who calls people "cool dudes" should be met with violence, but the venue looks good.

Particularly like the look of that chippy.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 19, 2015)

Can't say fairer than that


----------



## Dan U (Jun 19, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> The video sucks dogs cocks. Anyone who calls people "cool dudes" should be met with violence, but the venue looks good.
> 
> Particularly like the look of that chippy.


I really don't think the video is aimed at a load of middle aged moaning fuckers on the Internet. 

It annoyed the crap out of me but the place looks OK if you are of the young and disposable incomed persuasion.


----------



## Maharani (Jun 19, 2015)

Dan U said:


> I really don't think the video is aimed at a load of middle aged moaning fuckers on the Internet.
> 
> It annoyed the crap out of me but the place looks OK if you are of the young and disposable incomed persuasion.


No, it's aimed at a load of naive imbeciles. Anyone that thinks that video has sold the place needs their brains checking.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 19, 2015)

NZ wine shop is also taking B£


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2015)

I couldn't get past "so you're re-inventing fish and chips".

Do you feel that Shoreditch Boxpark is a bit too intimidating and local? Come to Pop Brixton! A much more welcoming bubble!


----------



## Maharani (Jun 19, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I couldn't get past "so you're re-inventing fish and chips".
> 
> Do you feel that Shoreditch Boxpark is a bit too intimidating and local? Come to Pop Brixton! A much more welcoming bubble!


How the fuck do you reinvent fish and chips!? I've heard it all now. I think he was just rambling on before he engaged his brains.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jun 19, 2015)

Consumerism as culture.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 19, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ha ha ha




Got through half of this early this morning. Is it a joke? Was the guy actually taking the piss out of it? A parody?

There is a place in SE1 in Paradise Walk, near St Thomas hospital where they have done this properly. I did take photos of it. Its an old restored building with cafe/arts centre, studio space and some really well designed use of containers. Makes Pop Brixton look amateurish. Plus an urban farm they are working on.

Here is the nice cafe


----------



## Belushi (Jun 19, 2015)

Dan U said:


> middle aged moaning fuckers on the Internet



We haven't had any new Urban75 t-shirts for years, I'd pay cash money for one with this on :thumbs :


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 19, 2015)

Belushi said:


> We haven't had any new Urban75 t-shirts for years, I'd pay cash money for one with this on :thumbs :



So would I.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 19, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So would I.



We could wear them to Pop Brixton and go for a good moan


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2015)

Belushi said:


> We could wear them to Pop Brixton and go for a good moan


why go there when you can moan in the warm here?


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 19, 2015)

Belushi said:


> We haven't had any new Urban75 t-shirts for years, I'd pay cash money for one with this on :thumbs :



I donated my old ones to Lambeth Archives. Historical record and all.


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> NZ wine shop is also taking B£


Yeah, locally produced goods for locals! Oh, wait...


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Can't say fairer than that


The more cynical may wonder if the amount of people visiting this establishment and paying in Brixton Pounds is likely to reach double figures in a week, or a month, But - hey! - good job on spreading the PR!

Another super local firm too!


----------



## Twattor (Jun 19, 2015)

I have to admit that I harbour an intense indifference to the whole container thing;having passed them by in East London and been subjected to the hyperbole, I was underwhelmed by the idea of the epidemic spreading here.

The recent posts on this thread have done little to change my opinion. Saying that, I am saddened by the aggression towards NZ wine girl, who I don't think has done anything to merit it. I am also really pleased to hear that the lovely couple that do tapas outside Craft have now got their own place (they have been threatening to bugger off to Brockley for months). I'm told the ramen people next door also have a tin box to call their own. 

Much as I dislike the concept, I like these people and I'm glad they will be staying around.


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Saying that, I am saddened by the aggression towards NZ wine girl, who I don't think has done anything to merit it.


What aggression has been displayed to the female owner? Where?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 19, 2015)

Oh well, I thought it might make a nice change to post some positive news about Pop


----------



## Twattor (Jun 19, 2015)

editor said:


> What aggression has been displayed to the female owner? Where?



Oh, c'mon ed; folks have been moany about her for a while. I'm sure you and I have discussed this before, but I'm not going to search the forums to make a point. She's come here, she's setting up a business, and I'm sure it will be cheaper to employ locals who pay tax and feed back into the local economy than to employ tax exiles


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Oh well, I thought it might make a nice change to post some positive news about Pop


You've just reposted PR fluff.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 19, 2015)

editor said:


> Another super local firm too!



They are a regular feature in Lower Marsh (Lambeth). but in dems far flung distant lands they has webbed feet and talk in a foreign tongue


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Oh, c'mon ed; folks have been moany about her for a while. I'm sure you and I have discussed this before, but I'm not going to search the forums to make a point. She's come here, she's setting up a business, and I'm sure it will be cheaper to employ locals who pay tax and feed back into the local economy than to employ tax exiles


I can see exactly why people make take umbrage at a New Zealand wine importing business setting up shop in what was supposed to be a local, community-based 'green' initiative, but I can't say I've seen much "aggression" towards the owner at all.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 19, 2015)

editor said:


> The more cynical may wonder if the amount of people visiting this establishment and paying in Brixton Pounds is likely to reach double figures in a week, or a month, But - hey! - good job on spreading the PR!
> 
> Another super local firm too!


There is a party you can vote for to stop these Johnny foreigner upstarts.

ETA they're there their error.


----------



## Twattor (Jun 19, 2015)

editor said:


> I can see exactly why people make take umbrage at a New Zealand wine importing business setting up shop in what was supposed to be a local, community-based 'green' initiative, but I can't say I've seen much "aggression" towards the owner at all.



I don't want to get into an argument with you. I don't want to pick over semantics. I'm on the phone, it isn't conducive to internet searches to support an argument. The facts as I recall: folks were less than welcoming to NZ girl. The reaction to her made me feel uncomfortable. She's just a girl, living in London, who wants to do something for herself.  Good luck to her. Don't be a hater.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 19, 2015)

Twattor said:


> I have to admit that I harbour an intense indifference to the whole container thing;having passed them by in East London and been subjected to the hyperbole, I was underwhelmed by the idea of the epidemic spreading here.
> 
> The recent posts on this thread have done little to change my opinion. Saying that, I am saddened by the aggression towards NZ wine girl, who I don't think has done anything to merit it. I am also really pleased to hear that the lovely couple that do tapas outside Craft have now got their own place (they have been threatening to bugger off to Brockley for months). I'm told the ramen people next door also have a tin box to call their own.
> 
> Much as I dislike the concept, I like these people and I'm glad they will be staying around.



Agree with this. It looks like a bunch of enterprising young folk having a go at small business and, by the looks of the crowds, doing alright. 

Good luck to them.


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## madolesance (Jun 19, 2015)

'Pop Brixton', the great walled "Community". All inside will feel safe from the Brixton that surrounds them.


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## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

Twattor said:


> I don't want to get into an argument with you. I don't want to pick over semantics. I'm on the phone, it isn't conducive to internet searches to support an argument. The facts as I recall: folks were less than welcoming to NZ girl. The reaction to her made me feel uncomfortable. She's just a girl, living in London, who wants to do something for herself.  Good luck to her. Don't be a hater.


That's fair enough, but I take exception at the suggestion that there's been mass "aggression" shown to her here, and I also can't go along with this emotive and rather patronising "she's just a girl" stuff.

She's a well connected, intelligent and successful businesswoman who had no problem accessing some fairly substantial funds to set up her international business.

I have no feelings either way if her venture is successful or not and I certainly don't hate her in the slightest. I find that suggestion rather insulting, to be honest.


----------



## editor (Jun 19, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There is a party you can vote for to stop these Johnny foreigner upstarts.


No, I'm not having this personal shit starting up again. Stop now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 19, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So would I.



Same here!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 19, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Oh, c'mon ed; folks have been moany about her for a while. I'm sure you and I have discussed this before, but I'm not going to search the forums to make a point. She's come here, she's setting up a business, and I'm sure it will be cheaper to employ locals who pay tax and feed back into the local economy than to employ tax exiles



Moaning and questioning quite what her business model had to do with Pop's originally-stated aims, isn't "aggression". it's moaning and questioning.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

double post


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

Twattor said:


> I don't want to get into an argument with you. I don't want to pick over semantics. I'm on the phone, it isn't conducive to internet searches to support an argument. The facts as I recall: folks were less than welcoming to NZ girl. The reaction to her made me feel uncomfortable. She's just a girl, living in London, who wants to do something for herself.  Good luck to her. Don't be a hater.



She's a woman, not a girl. A woman with the backing of some of NZ's largest vineyards. Casting her as a stranger in a strange land, beset by "haters" is downright falsehood.


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## Twattor (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> That's fair enough, but I take exception at the suggestion that there's been mass "aggression" shown to her here, and I also can't go along with this emotive and rather patronising "she's just a girl" stuff.
> 
> She's a well connected, intelligent and successful businesswoman who had no problem accessing some fairly substantial funds to set up her international business.
> 
> I have no feelings either way if her venture is successful or not and I certainly don't hate her in the slightest. I find that suggestion rather insulting, to be honest.



Broadly I don't think we disagree,  so don't be tetchy at me. I've always taken the position that it is better for folks who have inspiration and a viable business plan to have a crack and good luck to them. Although I don't drink wine, I will admit to having an irrational affection towards NZ wine girl simply because it is a defining part of her life that she wants to be part of our world


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## Twattor (Jun 20, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> She's a woman, not a girl. A woman with the backing of some of NZ's largest vineyards. Casting her as a stranger in a strange land, beset by "haters" is downright falsehood.



 What do you have to do to qualify for an ViolentPanda approved enterprise? I'd give her a go.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> She's a woman, not a girl. A woman with the backing of some of NZ's largest vineyards. Casting her as a stranger in a strange land, beset by "haters" is downright falsehood.



Do we know that this is the case and that she's importing the wine direct from the makers? Most small businesses like hers don't. They buy the wine from wholesalers here or in France. A friend of nine had a business selling wine to restaurants. He was one man and a van working off his kitchen table. He never made much money, he just liked wine and tried to make a job out of it. Unfortunately it didn't work out and he's now an English teacher.

If this young woman had all the international connections and backing that have been spoken of on here I doubt she'd be flogging her wares to the public from a container in Brixton.

More likely she's just a Kiwi with a love of wine, trying to make herself a small space in a very competitive business.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 20, 2015)

The New Zealand wine importers in particular have been held up for what some people think is bad about Pop in general. And I suppose whatever you think about them per se it's a good "poster boy" for those who dislike Pop. 

I spoke to them a few times and they are hard working, professional, genuinely nice people. I'm inspired by them getting this venture up and running. Emigrants coming to London with a dream and seeing it through? It's what the city has always been about, it's what this city allows people to do and why I love it.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I spoke to them a few times and they are hard working, professional, genuinely nice people. I'm inspired by them getting this venture up and running. Emigrants coming to London with a dream and seeing it through? It's what the city has always been about, it's what this city allows people to do and why I love it.



Quite. The city was built on this kind of thing.

The animosity towards her is because she's selling wine. From Pop. If she was knocking out cider from a khazi round the corner and had friends on U75, she'd be being lauded on these boards and Urbs would be queuing to support her!


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## DietCokeGirl (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> The animosity towards her is because she's selling wine. From Pop. If she was knocking out cider from a khazi round the corner and had friends on U75, she'd be being lauded on these boards and Urbs would be queuing to support her!



I think it's more to do with the fact that she has loads of rich backers, making it far from a DIY start-up that people expected POP would host.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I think it's more to do with the fact that she has loads of rich backers, making it far from a DIY start-up that people expected POP would host.



Ah, ok. Who are the backers?

What do posters here actually know about the structure of her business?


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## superfly101 (Jun 20, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I think it's more to do with the fact that she has loads of rich backers, making it far from a DIY start-up that people expected POP would host.



Contacts taken from working for 10 years in the London restaurant trade using family and crowd funding to finance it. 

http://www.one-to-watch.com/melanie-brown/

Personally I wouldn't be seen dead without a good sized quaff of Lambeth Lambrini, Brixton Bordeaux or the ladies favourite Peckham Pino.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Contacts taken from working for 10 years in the London restaurant trade using family and crowd funding to finance it.
> 
> http://www.one-to-watch.com/melanie-brown



So she started the business from home, 1 year ago, using her and her husbands savings, the knowledge she gained from working with wine at Providores, and contacts she's developed. 

What's the unacceptable bit of that?


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## Maharani (Jun 20, 2015)

This was already posted but here you are again:

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/04/...into-community-business-park-aka-pop-brixton/


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## Mr Retro (Jun 20, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I think it's more to do with the fact that she has loads of rich backers, making it far from a DIY start-up that people expected POP would host.


Which is why as I've said the business is being held up as what some people think is wrong with Pop which I think is fair for them to do so.

Is the larger community actually that bothered about what Pop is? It seems to me that there are less than a dozen people on here who care about what it is now as opposed to what it was supposed to be. Is there a larger dislike of Pop than this? I'm not aware of it but might be wrong


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

Maharani said:


> This was already posted but here you are again:
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/04/...into-community-business-park-aka-pop-brixton/



Cheers, I hadn't seen that, been away for a few weeks. 

Despite the obviously biased tone of that piece I guess that's fair enough really. If it was supposed to be one thing but is actually another I can see how that'd get people's backs up.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

Twattor said:


> What do you have to do to qualify for an ViolentPanda approved enterprise?



You appear to be insinuating that I don't "approve" of her enterprise.
On no basis except your own opinions.



> I'd give her a go.



I'm sure she'd be glad to hear that.


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## newbie (Jun 20, 2015)

and another is silenced, again permanently.  Cheers Rushy, you'll be missed.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Do we know that this is the case and that she's importing the wine direct from the makers? Most small businesses like hers don't. They buy the wine from wholesalers here or in France. A friend of nine had a business selling wine to restaurants. He was one man and a van working off his kitchen table. He never made much money, he just liked wine and tried to make a job out of it. Unfortunately it didn't work out and he's now an English teacher.
> 
> If this young woman had all the international connections and backing that have been spoken of on here I doubt she'd be flogging her wares to the public from a container in Brixton.
> 
> More likely she's just a Kiwi with a love of wine, trying to make herself a small space in a very competitive business.



...and as usual, you've bulldozed in without doing any background reading.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...and as usual, you've bulldozed in without doing any background reading.



Well I did ask for the background rather than trawl through 50 pages of a thread but as usual, you've bulldozed in without doing any foreground reading.


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## BigMoaner (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Quite. The city was built on this kind of thing.
> 
> The animosity towards her is because she's selling wine. From Pop. If she was knocking out cider from a khazi round the corner and had friends on U75, she'd be being lauded on these boards and Urbs would be queuing to support her!


You gotta admit, he's gotta point.

 I just wouldn't want my area gentrified like that, but have nothing against really all those involved.  There nothing sinister in setting up little businesses.  I am a bit waery of it seeing myself and others priced out of rapidly gentrified areas. But even I am a hypocrite as I am London property owner. Even worse for people renting etc


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## newbie (Jun 20, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> You gotta admit, he's gotta point.
> 
> I just wouldn't want my area gentrified like that, but have nothing against really all those involved.  There nothing sinister in setting up little businesses.  I am a bit waery of it seeing myself and others priced out of rapidly gentrified areas. But even I am a hypocrite as I am London property owner. Even worse for people renting etc


each wave of gentrification into Brixton results in some of the pools formed by previous waves draining away, traditionally to around where you are


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## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

newbie said:


> and another is silenced, again permanently.  Cheers Rushy, you'll be missed.


I wasn't aware that he'd been banned - it would have happened automatically applied after he accrued a certain number of warning messages - each one adds up points which  last for a certain length of time and if the limit is reached, the ban cuts in.

The ban isn't permanent as it will be lifted once the 'points' run out. It may be that the system is making the default ban too long or needs looking at. Certainly the message shouldn't say permaban because it's not. I'll ask Lazy Llama to take a look to see if we can tweak this.


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## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Although I don't drink wine, I will admit to having an irrational affection towards NZ wine girl simply because it is a defining part of her life that she wants to be part of our world


I have to say that the world of heavily backed international entrepreneurial wine importers in hipster container parks isn't exactly my world.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I have to say that the world of heavily backed international entrepreneurial wine importers in hipster container parks isn't exactly my world.



I'm sure she's distraught that she won't be attracting your custom, but she can take comfort in the fact that there are shed loads of other people, local and otherwise, who'll find her offerings interesting and worthwhile!


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

and by the same token clearly doesn't need defending so strongly from those ever so concerned that they do well


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## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> I'm sure she's distraught that she won't be attracting your custom, but she can take comfort in the fact that there are shed loads of other people, local and otherwise, who'll find her offerings interesting and worthwhile!


I'm sure she doesn't give a fuck what I think  - and that's fine by me - and I doubt if she gave much of a fuck for Brixton either until it became an area that was economically viable for her business plans, with that added sprinkle of all important 'cool'.


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## 299 old timer (Jun 20, 2015)

I made it through to the end of the video and thought it was fantastic! Truly vibrant, buzzing, and happening in an amazing space! Well done to whoever made it, you've captured the vibe perfectly!!!!


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> and by the same token clearly doesn't need defending so strongly from those ever so concerned that they do well



Of course not. What she _needs _is vilification from a handful of people on the Internet who feel they know best what's good for _the community_.


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## newbie (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I wasn't aware that he'd been banned - it would have happened automatically applied after he accrued a certain number of warning messages - each one adds up points which  last for a certain length of time and if the limit is reached, the ban cuts in.
> 
> The ban isn't permanent as it will be lifted once the 'points' run out. It may be that the system is making the default ban too long or needs looking at. Certainly the message shouldn't say permaban because it's not. I'll ask Lazy Llama to take a look to see if we can tweak this.


two interesting dissident posters have been vaped in a couple of pages and it's all down to a computer and how its programmed?

I, for one, salute <etc>


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I made it through to the end of the video and thought it was fantastic! Truly vibrant, buzzing, and happening in an amazing space! Well done to whoever made it, you've captured the vibe perfectly!!!!


honestly?? or are you tee hee trolling


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Of course not. What she _needs _is vilification from a handful of people on the Internet who feel they know best what's good for _the community_.


i know you are here late and enjoying the dig bandwagon but as has been established the views of a handful of people on the internet is not going to make any difference to their success so why are you and others so bothered about countering these opinions? :Confused:


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> i know you are here late and enjoying the dig bandwagon but as has been established the views of a handful of people on the internet is not going to make any difference to their success so why are you and others so bothered about countering these opinions? :Confused:



Well you know, these are discussion boards where there are inevitably multiple opinions. I'm sorry that mine and others here differs from yours and those that you seek to ingratiate yourself with, but that's just the way it goes. 

If you want a circle jerk, set up a private conversation and only invite people who'll agree with you.


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Well you know, these are discussion boards where there are inevitably multiple opinions. I'm sorry that mine and others here differs from yours and those that you seek to ingratiate yourself with, but that's just the way it goes.
> 
> If you want a circle jerk, set up a private conversation and only invite people who'll agree with you.


lol, you are so _funny_


----------



## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Well you know, these are discussion boards where there are inevitably multiple opinions. I'm sorry that mine and others here differs from yours and those that you seek to ingratiate yourself with, but that's just the way it goes.
> 
> If you want a circle jerk, set up a private conversation and only invite people who'll agree with you.


you and others are the ones having a go at a few for sharing an opinion but that doesn't count as part of the discussion?
why not just continue to be smug and know these people will succeed whatever due to their money and connections


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you and others are the ones having a go at a few for sharing an opinion but that doesn't count as part of the discussion?
> why not just continue to be smug and know these people will succeed whatever due to their money and connections



Well of course there's no guarantee that the business will succeed regardless of her connections or what you perceive her financial standing to be. She's managed to get a bunch of people to crowd fund an average of £500 each and bunged in some of her savings. Not beyond the ability of many others with a sound idea, and a bit of drive. It's hardly Falcon Crest.

You'd like to see her fail wouldn't you?

Be honest.


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

no i don't give a shit either way to be totally honest
just find it funny that people feel they need to defend such people
it's quite transparent really

wankers who will personally benefit and profit from more wankers around them support wankers shocker!


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> no i don't give a shit either way to be totally honest
> just find it funny that people feel they need to defend such people



What do you mean by "such people"?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

people who crowd fund for a profit making business


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> wankers who will personally benefit and profit from more wankers around them support wankers shocker!



So does this mean that you've decided that she's a wanker, as are her customers?


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

why don't ya just call me ddick and be done with it! or is that just on threads i'm not on? 
wanker


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

for balance i disagree with a local vegan place crowdfunding to open their shop too!


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> people who crowd fund for a profit making business



Ahh, now where getting to the real stuff!

It IS indeed the type of business that you disapprove of.

What kind of funding model would meet with your approval then, ddraig?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Ahh, now where getting to the real stuff!
> 
> It IS indeed the type of business that you disapprove of.
> 
> What kind of funding model would with your approval then, ddraig?


rong again!
not here to get pinned down by your expert questioning m'lord


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> why don't ya just call me ddick and be done with it! or is that just on threads i'm not on?



Oh I think you're a dick as you well know. I've told you so many times over so many years that I didn't think I needed to do that here.


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## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

newbie said:


> two interesting dissident posters have been vaped in a couple of pages and it's all down to a computer and how its programmed?


Either that or they were warned several times about what they were posting, but continued to break the rules until the ban kicked in. Feel free to take this to the feedback forum if you wish to pursue this matter with the mods, but it is off topic for this thread.


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

to spy
i know but doing it on a thread i'm not with yer mate and fucking with my username is different
wanker


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> not here to get pinned down by your expert questioning m'lord



Off you fuck then.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

nah i'll stay
just not humouring your johnny come lately questioning and tired see through shite


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## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Oh I think you're a dick as you well know. I've told you so many times over so many years that I didn't think I needed to do that here.


Time to stop the personal abuse or a ban will follow. Same applies to everyone else too.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> to spy
> i know but doing it on a thread i'm not with yer mate and fucking with my username is different
> wanker



Let's keep this thread on topic, eh?

And why are you signing off your posts as 'wanker'?

I agree, but that's pretty stupid, even for you!


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> no i don't give a shit either way to be totally honest



Genuine laugh out loud moment. You've posted endless drivel on the subject but you don't give a shit. Fair enough. How about going down there and reporting back?


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Time to stop the personal abuse or a ban will follow. Same applies to everyone else too.



Ok. Excuse the above. Posted before I read the warning.


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Genuine laugh out loud moment. You've posted endless drivel on the subject but you don't give a shit. Fair enough. How about going down there and reporting back?


what drivel have i posted about the wine woman?


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Anyone posting up any further off topic personal stuff will be warned.


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## superfly101 (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I have to say that the world of heavily backed international entrepreneurial wine importers in hipster container parks isn't exactly my world.



Well "darling" - flutters eye lids like Alex Polizzi - we could crowd fund you on to the wine course at either NZ girl Pop or the wine bar across from Brixton Whole Foods?

Although afterwards you might have to shave a bit closer if you fancy a crack at Londons 1st and only female oriented wine selection at Brixton dim sum restaurant The Courtesan.

Although perversely the chief head wine grower of one of the NZ vineyards supplying the Court is a girl from Brixton!

What is it about wine, girls and Brixton/NZ? You haven't done a Crowded House night at the 414 in recent memory have you Ed?


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## superfly101 (Jun 20, 2015)

Whoops to late


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## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> What is it about wine, girls and Brixton/NZ? You haven't done a Crowded House night at the 414 in recent memory have you Ed?


This is just depressing. Either you want a functioning Brixton forum where people can debate local issues, or you just want to fuck about and trash it with irrelevant and disruptive personal shit. And, yes, this applies to everyone else too. Including myself.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> what drivel have i posted about the wine woman?



For one thing, that she's a wanker, funded by and patronised by wankers.

Can you expand on this please, ddraig?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

yes but won't

that whether true or not does not = 'endless drivel' anyhow

stopping now as pointless, have fun


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

Good move. 

Communities are made up of many different types of people who do and like a wide variety of things.


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## Ms T (Jun 20, 2015)

She raised 42k from almost 200 people. I wouldn't say that means she's got "loads of rich backers".


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## CH1 (Jun 20, 2015)

Ms T said:


> She raised 42k from almost 200 people. I wouldn't say that means she's got "loads of rich backers".


At least she didn't raise it from Lambeth Council!


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

e2a to Ms T
thought it didn't matter if they did! 
again, don't see the need for them to be defended so much


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

They're being "defended" by people who think they're being attacked unfairly. That happens on boards. Get over it.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 20, 2015)

Just got back from Pop Brixton and I really like it. Really nice atmosphere. Great music. I'll certainly be going back


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> They're being "defended" by people who think they're being attacked unfairly. That happens on boards. Get over it.


and they coincidentally are of a similar ilk! funny that init
how about you get over others having a dissenting/different view


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> and they coincidentally are of a similar ilk! funny that init
> how about you get over others having a dissenting/different view



I'm perfectly happy to discuss other views but you can't even articulate yours beyond some turgid nonsense that goes something like 'crowd funding. Boooo'.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Just got back from Pop Brixton and I really like it. Really nice atmosphere. Great music. I'll certainly be going back



Is it all open on Sundays?


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## SpamMisery (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Is it all open on Sundays?



Sunday 9:00am until 11:00pm


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 20, 2015)

Ms T said:


> She raised 42k from almost 200 people. I wouldn't say that means she's got "loads of rich backers".


An average of £200ish per backer is pretty high for crowdfunding. I would suspect that it was biased upwards by large pledges from a few supporters though.


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

Yes. If a dozen or so do a couple of grand apiece the profile change dramatically. It doesn't signify 'lots of rich backers' though. If someone did the whole bloody lot they wouldn't necessarily be loaded.


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## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

"i'm so loaded that loaded means something different to me than most"


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## Spymaster (Jun 20, 2015)

What the fuck are you wittering on about now?

Forty grand could come from a remortgage, modest inheritance, saving like buggery for years....

I'd wager that there are a fair few posters on this very thread that could put that together, particularly those that are homeowners.

And there are 200 people involved here!

The point is, these folk are not necessarily "rich backers".


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## SpamMisery (Jun 20, 2015)

Very true. It is a relative scale however with lots of posters on here who will consider that an out of reach fortune - this is, as we're oft reminded, one of the poorest wards in London


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 20, 2015)

Anyway, I don't give a monkeys where she got the money from, it's none of my business. I think the wine shop is a nice addition to Pop and I hope she does well.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 20, 2015)

I think it is a dead end to start arguing about whether the amount of support a particular person had is excessive tbh. There are always going to be examples on both sides.

What I think is more important is the way people get to be in Pop. The video makes it look basically like an air dropped gentrification bomb, like the Tesco stores from when they invaded Denmark—hermetically sealed from the rest of Brixton, designed for a specific demographic and with a payload to match. That's actually not so much about the money they have, though it isn't irrelevant.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 20, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think it is a dead end to start arguing about whether the amount of support a particular person had is excessive tbh. There are always going to be examples on both sides.
> 
> What I think is more important is the way people get to be in Pop. The video makes it look basically like an air dropped gentrification bomb, like the Tesco stores from when they invaded Denmark—hermetically sealed from the rest of Brixton, designed for a specific demographic and with a payload to match. That's actually not so much about the money they have, though it isn't irrelevant.


Probably best to go there in person rather than judging it by a video seemingly made by an overexcited teenager, though.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Ms T said:


> She raised 42k from almost 200 people. I wouldn't say that means she's got "loads of rich backers".


That works at nearly four times the average sum of money per person for crowdfunded campaigns. She reached £35,000 in just 144 hours. That is a lot, lot higher than average. Compare with, say, the Brixton Blog who struggled to reach a much smaller total over a much longer period - and even then they had to extend it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 20, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Probably best to go there in person rather than judging it by a video seemingly made by an overexcited teenager, though.


Perhaps, but it does give you an idea of their marketing strategy and overall vision—they wouldn't have put it up otherwise. I wasn't joking when I said it made it sound like it was for people who thought the Shoreditch Boxpark was a bit too intimidatingly local.


----------



## Dan U (Jun 20, 2015)

It's like watching a kid at primary school repeatedly kick the girl they really secretly fancy.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Probably best to go there in person rather than judging it by a video seemingly made by an overexcited teenager, though.


An "awesome" video that has been warmly endorsed by Pop Brixton themselves, both on Twitter and Facebook, so presumably they must feel that it's representative of the experience.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Dan U said:


> It's like watching a kid at primary school repeatedly kick the girl they really secretly fancy.


How does this strange comment help the discussion? What is your point? Who 'secretly fancies' who?


----------



## Dan U (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> How does this strange comment help the discussion? What is your point? Who 'secretly fancies' who?


It was a jokey way of saying you are obsessed with this business.


----------



## organicpanda (Jun 20, 2015)

it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Dan U said:


> It was a jokey way of saying you are obsessed with this business.


No personal abuse please. Thanks. I am not "obsessed" with anything.


----------



## Winot (Jun 20, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently



Terrible thing seeing established businesses suffering as a result of incomers.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently


That figures. Pop has become the new go-to fad for foodie lovers with a nice bit of disposable income. I fancy that the trend will be reversed though: I think the novelty of Pop will fade fairly fast, and once the weather changes it's going to be a bleak place to tarry.


----------



## Dan U (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> No personal abuse please. Thanks. I am not "obsessed" with anything.


That isn't abuse. That is an opinion. I had an opinion on this matter which differed from yours, I expressed it without being abusive. I haven't reported you for having the temerity to disagree with me, which is essentially what you are doing. . 

Abuse would be calling you a cunt or something. 

I'll leave you to it anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I made it through to the end of the video and thought it was fantastic! Truly vibrant, buzzing, and happening in an amazing space! Well done to whoever made it, you've captured the vibe perfectly!!!!



You are truly a sick puppy.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Dan U said:


> That isn't abuse. That is an opinion. I had an opinion on this matter which differed from yours, I expressed it without being abusive. I haven't reported you for having the temerity to disagree with me, which is essentially what you are doing. .


No, you're manufacturing a supposed "obsession" as a means to rubbish any argument I may have. And trying to compare me with "a kid at primary school repeatedly kicking the girl they really secretly fancy" just underlines the fact that you are here to disrupt and belittle, while adding nothing to the actual debate.

Stop now please.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Of course not. What she _needs _is vilification from a handful of people on the Internet who feel they know best what's good for _the community_.



What "vilification"?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 20, 2015)




----------



## Dan U (Jun 20, 2015)

I am not rubbishing every argument, I think you have many decent arguments to make. In my opinion you do those arguments a disservice by overly focusing on one start up business.

I still haven't abused you btw, which is what you are accusing me of.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> An average of £200ish per backer is pretty high for crowdfunding. I would suspect that it was biased upwards by large pledges from a few supporters though.


IIRC that was a point made early on in the POP saga - that some of her crowd-funders were NZ vineyards/vineyard owners who dropped in a (tax deductible) couple of thou.


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Dan U said:


> I am not rubbishing every argument, I think you have many decent arguments to make. In my opinion you do those arguments a disservice by overly focusing on one start up business.
> 
> I still haven't abused you btw, which is what you are accusing me of.


You accused me of being "obsessed" with this business and likened me to a kid repeatedly kicking a girl I "really secretly fancy". Keep up this kind of off-topic personal crap and will be officially warned.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


>


Mmmm. Looking extra vibrant. And loving those yellow dungarees too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

Dan U said:


> It's like watching a kid at primary school repeatedly kick the girl they really secretly fancy.



It's more like watching a kid at primary school wrinkle their nose.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently



Not surprising.
The more germane takings levels will be when the initial "buzz" around POP is over, and customer spread has fallen into preference mode, rather than "check out the new places" mode.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 20, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


>



........presumably these cats are finishing their kronenburg and having a quick snout before they enter the palace of pleasure, the security guard looks miserable as sin


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


>



The security guard should be ejecting dungaree boy for crimes against taste and breach of the peace!


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 20, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The security guard should be ejecting dungaree boy for crimes against taste and breach of the peace!


I think he's trying not to look at him, as he can't keep a straight face.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 20, 2015)

fishfinger said:


> I think he's trying not to look at him, as he can't keep a straight face.



He is dressed like a bloody toddler


----------



## ddraig (Jun 20, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently


 posh food fight/wars!!


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Or maybe - just maybe - Brixton has reached foodie/cocktails/hub saturation point?

*prays


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

fishfinger said:


> I think he's trying not to look at him, as he can't keep a straight face.



TBF, if an adult male was standing in front of me wearing short primrose dungarees, I wouldn't be able to keep a straight face either!


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 20, 2015)

Belushi said:


> He is dressed like a bloody toddler


----------



## Belushi (Jun 20, 2015)

There's a lot of food outlets now


----------



## editor (Jun 20, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


>


So what is the story behind this intriguing photo?!


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> So what is the story behind this intriguing photo?!



No real story. I had planned to walk around Pop this evening. But I felt that I wasn't dressed for the occasion.


----------



## T & P (Jun 20, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently


That's going to create a nice dilemma for some...


----------



## organicpanda (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Or maybe - just maybe - Brixton has reached foodie/cocktails/hub saturation point?
> 
> *prays


problem is that the rents are so high I don't see what would come in their place, landlords won't drop their prices


----------



## Maharani (Jun 20, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


>


Oh my...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Or maybe - just maybe - Brixton has reached foodie/cocktails/hub saturation point?
> 
> *prays


Unfortunately, probably not. There may be a pause while businesses sink or swim and/or consolidate, but that generally makes room for *more* new ventures.


----------



## organicpanda (Jun 20, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Unfortunately, probably not. There may be a pause while businesses sink or swim and/or consolidate, but that generally makes room for *more* new ventures.


so even more corporate businesses masquerading as individual businesses


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> so even more corporate businesses masquerading as individual businesses



TBF, that appears to already be happening, given some of the corporate sector backers of some of the current crop.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jun 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I made it through to the end of the video and thought it was fantastic! Truly vibrant, buzzing, and happening in an amazing space! Well done to whoever made it, you've captured the vibe perfectly!!!!


----------



## elmpp (Jun 21, 2015)

editor said:


> Mmmm. Looking extra vibrant. And loving those yellow dungarees too.


Sneery. Shall we post pictures of dreadlocked types and comment how unclean and minging they are?


----------



## boohoo (Jun 21, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Sneery. Shall we post pictures of dreadlocked types and comment how unclean and minging they are?


That reminds me of when I was a bit of a crusty type back in the 1990s.  I was walking through Brixton when I bumped into my old manger. The first thing he said to me was "you're filthy" . He was quite startled by it. Makes me laugh thinking about it.

those yellow dungerees are embracing a 90s vibe. A brave wearer.


----------



## Winot (Jun 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> That reminds me of when I was a bit of a crusty type back in the 1960s.



You've aged well.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 21, 2015)

Winot said:


> You've aged well.



 the problems of typing on a tablet trying to battle a small child who wants to watch Hey Duggee


----------



## editor (Jun 21, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Sneery. Shall we post pictures of dreadlocked types and comment how unclean and minging they are?


Ah, a cheap attempt at utterly irrelevant personal abuse. It's already been explained several times what happens to people trying to disrupt the thread in such a fashion. Poster warned.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Sneery. Shall we post pictures of dreadlocked types and comment how unclean and minging they are?



Yawn.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> That reminds me of when I was a bit of a crusty type back in the 1990s.  I was walking through Brixton when I bumped into my old manger. The first thing he said to me was "you're filthy" . He was quite startled by it. Makes me laugh thinking about it.
> 
> those yellow dungerees are embracing a 90s vibe. A brave wearer.



The '90s vibe being Timmy fucking Mallet!


----------



## boohoo (Jun 21, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The '90s vibe being Timmy fucking Mallet!



I suppose you were probably a little old in the 90s


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The '90s vibe being Timmy fucking Mallet!



I have the misfortune that my first G-dson was born in '86, so was just the right (wrong?) age to catch the dungareed one, and to insist on constant video replays of the latest episode.
It scarred me. Scarred me, I tell you!!!


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 21, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently



Thats interesting as the "meanwhile" use of the site, as I understood it, was not supposed to compete with existing business in commercial units. Confirms what I posted that it was BV mark2.

I had another wander around today. Its now a food court where the growing section was going to be. Still prefer the cafes in Brixton Station road.


----------



## organicpanda (Jun 21, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thats interesting as the "meanwhile" use of the site, as I understood it, was not supposed to compete with existing business in commercial units. Confirms what I posted that it was BV mark2.
> 
> I had another wander around today. Its now a food court where the growing section was going to be. Still prefer the cafes in Brixton Station road.


Gosh you're brave there's no security there


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 21, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> Gosh you're brave there's no security there



To be fair as Pop had to get a license for the place having security is often condition of license. Pubs in area have had the same problem.

I have nothing much against security guards ( well most of the time). Its a crap job. Standing around the entrance of Pop probably on a zero hours contract on low pay.


----------



## organicpanda (Jun 21, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> To be fair as Pop had to get a license for the place having security is often condition of license. Pubs in area have had the same problem.
> 
> I have nothing much against security guards ( well most of the time). Its a crap job. Standing around the entrance of Pop probably on a zero hours contract on low pay.


it wasn't a dig at Pop, more a comment on how there seems to be security everywhere these days Benthamite thinking gone mad


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2015)

Posted by a local on the Pop Brixton Facebook page (and now removed):


> Pop Brixton - In my humble opinion the project has not provided necessarily much reason to be welcomed in our community. I am the last person to oppose change and I consider myself open to new opportunities and ideas, even if they are mainly market oriented. However I want to be frank here. When I entered Pop Brixton I felt bewildered and estranged. After observing the space, the people, being in the atmosphere, I had no other wish than to leave the space, shut the gate behind me and hope that a spaceship would come to take the whole thing away and place it somewhere else. There is nothing original about this. Rumours have it that businesses who moved in there from Brixton Village and Market Row are regretting it already as business is slow and rents are outrageous.


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> To be fair as Pop had to get a license for the place having security is often condition of license. Pubs in area have had the same problem.
> 
> I have nothing much against security guards ( well most of the time). Its a crap job. Standing around the entrance of Pop probably on a zero hours contract on low pay.


I'm not sure why they have to be dressed in full-on matching security outfits (at least in the daytime).  At Granville Market they usually have someone just wearing an orange bib and that seems to make it all feel more relaxed and less corporate (at least to me).


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## SpamMisery (Jun 22, 2015)

I didn't even notice security. There was a guy with a walkie-talkie standing at the entrance, but he had jeans and t-shirt on - he might have just been other staff


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I didn't even notice security. There was a guy with a walkie-talkie standing at the entrance, but he had jeans and t-shirt on - he might have just been other staff


There were two guys in full security outfits standing right by the door on Sunday afternoon. There's always been visible guards there every time I've gone past.


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## T & P (Jun 22, 2015)

It's obviously a matter of personal opinion, but so far as they're not being unduly overzealous to peeps, what security guards are wearing is very low in my list of priorities when it comes to assess the merits of a venue.


----------



## Maharani (Jun 22, 2015)

T & P said:


> It's obviously a matter of personal opinion, but so far as they're not being unduly overzealous to peeps, what security guards are wearing is very low in my list of priorities when it comes to assess the merits of a venue.


.


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2015)

T & P said:


> It's obviously a matter of personal opinion, but so far as they're not being unduly overzealous to peeps, what security guards are wearing is very low in my list of priorities when it comes to assess the merits of a venue.


I guess we're different then. Relaxed, casual and unobtrusive security makes me feel quite differently about, for example, visiting a pub or not.

High profile, fully uniformed security sends out a message about a place.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 22, 2015)

I took a look around the place on Sunday. Probably not the best time as I was there around midday and quite a few of the units weren't open. It's a lot smaller than I'd expected but there seems to be a lot of containers not yet occupied. The atmosphere would obviously be a lot different of an evening.

It's pretty rough and ready; beaten-up containers, bare plywood decking and furniture, and a plastic sheet thrown over the middle bit. Certainly not my idea of a "gentrification bomb" but I suppose it might be others. Most of the folk were under 30s and young couples with pushchairs.

There were uniformed security guards wandering around though, which didn't add much to the appeal of the place.

It'd be interesting to see how the rest of it develops.


----------



## Peanut Monkey (Jun 23, 2015)

I heard the other day that the security there are particularly hot on people smoking in Pop and hustle them out sharpish. One of the guards told my friend this was because all the gas canisters that feed the shops are directly below the wooden slatted flooring and that it's a "terrible design".


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 23, 2015)

If true, that's an accident waiting to happen surely?!


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 23, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> If true, that's an accident waiting to happen surely?!



Don't worry, it must surely have been passed for fit and proper usage by Lambeth's Health & Safety inspectorate.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 23, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> passed for fit and proper usage by Lambeth's Health & Safety inspectorate.



As long as no one is smoking above them and dropping fag butts onto them.

I'm assuming it was always going to be a no smoking environment.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 23, 2015)

How long is Pop Brixton supposed to be there for? Or is it open ended?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> How long is Pop Brixton supposed to be there for? Or is it open ended?


They have a lease for a period of something like 2 yrs. Obviously that can be extended. Planning permission was for up to 5 years.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 23, 2015)

I'm wondering why they are all running off gas canisters instead of just being connected to the mains.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


>



This picture gets better with every viewing...


----------



## T & P (Jun 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I'm wondering why they are all running off gas canisters instead of just being connected to the mains.


Mains = too mainstream.


----------



## T & P (Jun 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> This picture gets better with every viewing...


Is that what the much talked about security guards actually look like? Judging by various accounts here I had been lead to believe they'd look more like this...


----------



## leanderman (Jun 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> Is that what the much talked about security guards actually look like? Judging by various accounts here I had been lead to believe they'd look more like this...



He usually leans unobtrusively against the wall away to the right, a few yards inside the entrance.

You hardly notice him.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> Is that what the much talked about security guards actually look like?



He hasn't even got a tie on.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

They must have all gone off for a tea break when the artist's render was being created, mind.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2015)

^^^ That's what it looked like when I was there. The 2 guards were inside.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> ^^^ That's what it looked like when I was there. The 2 guards were inside.


It looked almost completely devoid of people last night. The guards were aimlessly wandering around inside looked excessively bored.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 23, 2015)

It got a big thumbs up review in Timeout today.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> It looked almost completely devoid of people last night. The guards were aimlessly wandering around inside looked excessively bored.



Probably to be expected given it's mainly food and drink. Monday nights are unlikely to be banging. They're still finding their feet by the looks of things and it will take time. It's still half unoccupied after all.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It got a big thumbs up review in Timeout today.


That's hardly a surprise. It's exactly the thing that Time Out likes to get excited about.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> It's exactly the thing that Time Out likes to get excited about.



 What's that then?


----------



## Rushy (Jun 23, 2015)

It was very busy on Saturday. Friendly atmosphere. Had a great day and evening with good friends. We'd all call ourselves local but admittedly only one born and bred Brit amongst us, so perhaps not really local. We were there about 8hrs and concluded that, in the interest of public safety, they sorely need a decent session ale on tap.


----------



## Winot (Jun 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> We'd all call ourselves local but admittedly only one born and bred Brit amongst us, so perhaps not really local



As long as none of you are from New Zealand.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 23, 2015)

Winot said:


> As long as none of you are from New Zealand.


Only one of us. But I don't think anyone noticed.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Here's how it looked around 9.30pm last night. We were going to go for a drink but it was too bleak.









The drinking lounge, sorry,_ growing area._


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

This seems a fair comment (from Reclaim Brixton FB) 



> Having been denied entry soon after it opened because I was carrying a drink from 'outside the compound' I finally got a chance to look round PB just now.
> 
> There's no doubt in my mind it's been created to attract the same kind of consumer class that eventually cannibalised Shoreditch, however there are a couple of small businesses in there alongside the £8 *glasses* of wine and 'Eton Mess' ice cream stalls that I felt pretty sorry for, standing lonely in their shells while braying visitors walked straight past them.
> 
> However much the final concept stinks I think it's worth popping by to support those people occasionally, even though my heart remains with Brixton's older shops and stalls.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 23, 2015)

Would be interesting to know which units specifically have been deemed worthy of support.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 23, 2015)

I think people might think it's closed Monday like the village.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 23, 2015)

Last night was their first Monday.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 23, 2015)

Nothing wrong with Eton Mess - a bloody fine pudding


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 23, 2015)

Below The River (south london's brand new cultural guide) review of Pop....

http://belowtheriver.co.uk/review-pop-brixton/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> What's that then?



The new thing.
Once upon a time, _Time Out_ were well-known for being critical when necessary (even though they did employ my arch-nemesis, Andrew Mosby).Toward the end of their "paid for" days and into the online era though, they've (IMO) lost a lot of their edge (and their advertising).


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Would be interesting to know which units specifically have been deemed worthy of support.


The ones "standing lonely in their shells while braying visitors walked straight past them," presumably.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The new thing.
> Once upon a time, _Time Out_ were well-known for being critical when necessary (even though they did employ my arch-nemesis, Andrew Mosby).Toward the end of their "paid for" days and into the online era though, they've (IMO) lost a lot of their edge (and their advertising).


Time Out was once seen as a fairly left mag. Radical, even. Hard to relate that to a mag that then introduced a section called "Consume," and now runs with an editorial stance that mainly seems concerned with extolling the virtues of cash-spare 'lifestyle' living.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Time Out was once seen as a fairly left mag. Radical, even. Hard to relate that to a mag that then introduced a section called "Consume," and now runs with an editorial stance that mainly seems concerned with extolling the virtues of cash-spare 'lifestyle' living.



Yep.  Quite sad.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 23, 2015)

The time out article was odd, described Pop as 'supported by activists...' - eh? Who's that, then?


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Last night was their first Monday.


Are you sure? The sign on their door was saying that it was open on Mondays back at the beginning of the month.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 23, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The time out article was odd, described Pop as 'supported by activists...' - eh? Who's that, then?



"Supported by local activists, a developer and an architect, and with backing from Lambeth Council, Pop has turned a disused space, leased from the council, into a vibrant, inexpensive eating destination."

That word 'vibrant' again.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Are you sure? The sign on their door was saying that it was open on Mondays back at the beginning of the month.



According to their face book page:


----------



## teuchter (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> The ones "standing lonely in their shells while braying visitors walked straight past them," presumably.


Like I said, it would be interesting to know specifically which ones they are.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 23, 2015)

so you can hopefully find some tiny inconsistency to batter him with for the next few years?


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> According to their face book page:
> 
> View attachment 73107


Well that's their fuck up then as I have a picture of their gates saying they were open on Mondays!


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Like I said, it would be interesting to know specifically which ones they are.


Seems the easiest solution would be for you to take a look around yourself and see if you can find the ones fitting that description. I can pretty much work out which ones are being referred to.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 23, 2015)

Sounds like none of us is entirely sure.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> I can pretty much work out which ones are being referred to.



It seems a bit odd that the commenter is suggesting we support certain businesses but doesn't tell us which ones they are. If it's a matter of supporting whichever ones seem not to be busy at the point in time at which one visits the site, then that seems a little bizarre because then the only criterion for support is unpopularity. And furthermore will probably change according to time of day/week.

But which ones is it that you feel are being referred to?


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It seems a bit odd that the commenter is suggesting we support certain businesses but doesn't tell us which ones they are. If it's a matter of supporting whichever ones seem not to be busy at the point in time at which one visits the site, then that seems a little bizarre because then the only criterion for support is unpopularity. And furthermore will probably change according to time of day/week.


If it bothers you that much, why not join the Reclaim Brixton Facebook page and ask them directly? I'm not here to speak on their behalf, although I agreed with the spirit of their post (and that's why I thought it was worthy of a repost). You don't have to agree with it of course, but I think it's good to share different viewpoints.


teuchter said:


> But which ones is it that you feel are being referred to?


LOL.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Below The River (south london's brand new cultural guide) review of Pop....
> 
> http://belowtheriver.co.uk/review-pop-brixton/


"Below the River" sounds like a name invented by someone from North London who scoffed at crossing said river prior to about 2010. 

Interesting though that they describe it as



> With no expected heavy-handed security, either.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 23, 2015)

you get more tired and transparent as time goes on


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 23, 2015)

The first time I went there was a security guard (uniformed) hovering outside looking fairly bored.

The second time a was a security guard (uniformed) inside the entrance way, observing and making notes on a clipboard (as in looking around, writing a bit, looking around, writing a bit).

Perhaps the second one has a sideline in food blogging...


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you get more tired and transparent as time goes on


Please keep all personal comments off this forum or you will be warned. Same applies to others attempting to use more 'clever' means of attacking posters.


----------



## Winot (Jun 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It seems a bit odd that the commenter is suggesting we support certain businesses but doesn't tell us which ones they are. If it's a matter of supporting whichever ones seem not to be busy at the point in time at which one visits the site, then that seems a little bizarre because then the only criterion for support is unpopularity. And furthermore will probably change according to time of day/week.



Also, if everyone follows the instruction of supporting unpopular businesses, they will become popular and no longer be worthy of support.  

I'm beginning to think that the commenter hasn't thought this through.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 23, 2015)

e2a to ed
how is it personal? it is a view on their posting history here, I don't know them irl


----------



## Ms T (Jun 23, 2015)

My 29-year-old colleague who moved to Brixton last year was complaining to me yesterday about the annoying twenty-something's in Pop Brixton.  (He did see the irony.)


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 23, 2015)

ddraig said:


> it is a view on their posting history here ...



_That_ is personal.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Winot said:


> Also, if everyone follows the instruction of supporting unpopular businesses, they will become popular and no longer be worthy of support.
> 
> I'm beginning to think that the commenter hasn't thought this through.


I would have thought that their meaning was rather obvious, but there you go.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> _That_ is personal.


Hi. No need for you to add anything at all on this matter. I'm trying (hard) to keep this thread on topic in amongst all the sniping and digs.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jun 23, 2015)

This is a pretty measured piece:



The most accurate Pop Brixton video yet.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 23, 2015)

editor on your us travels did you ever visit a place called dekalb market in Brooklyn ? Pop Brixton reminds me of that venture.

Also built of shipping containers,  dekalb market was a flea market/hipster hang out in vibrant edgy Brooklyn that opened in July 2011 to much fanfare and plaudits. However,  despite stating to business owners that the site would be available for at least five years, construction on the site started less than 15 months later. Business owners reported leases were being extended even in the few months prior to the site closing.

Whilst many other sites were rumoured to be market's new home, as far as I can tell it never relocated and shut for good in September 2012. The new development is meant to be having a large indoor market Hall for version 2 of the market, but many are unconvinced.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Below The River (south london's brand new cultural guide) review of Pop....
> http://belowtheriver.co.uk/review-pop-brixton/


This seemed a bit pretentious I thought
"a pit stop at the Craft Beer Co is inevitable, with its west-facing suntrap pavement terrace."


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

CH1 said:


> This seemed a bit pretentious I thought
> "a pit stop at the Craft Beer Co is inevitable, with its west-facing suntrap pavement terrace."


Totes!


----------



## cuppa tee (Jun 23, 2015)

CH1 said:


> _west-facing_ suntrap


----------



## Maharani (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> It looked almost completely devoid of people last night. The guards were aimlessly wandering around inside looked excessively bored.


It was Monday night tbf.


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Maharani said:


> It was Monday night tbf.


But given the amount of hype and PR that's been sent its way, I was surprised to see it so incredibly empty. It's not like everywhere was equally empty: both Kaff and the Queen's head were really busy last night.


----------



## peterkro (Jun 23, 2015)

Winot said:


> As long as none of you are from New Zealand.


I am in spite of living in Brixton for thirty five years.


----------



## Maharani (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> But given the amount of hype and PR that's been sent its way, I was surprised to see it so incredibly empty. It's not like everywhere was equally empty: both Kaff and the Queen's head were really busy last night.


Wasn't it a bit rainy yesterday eve too?


----------



## editor (Jun 23, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Wasn't it a bit rainy yesterday eve too?


Not really. Didn't stop me walking from the Duke to the Queens


----------



## blameless77 (Jun 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Are you sure? The sign on their door was saying that it was open on Mondays back at the beginning of the month.



I think it's quite a struggle for small businesses to stay open seven days a week. That equates to no (family) life. At the q and a P Castaing mentioned they'd withheld a licence because the (female) business applicant had a young family. Personally I don't think that's ok.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 23, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> I think it's quite a struggle for small businesses to stay open seven days a week. That equates to no (family) life. At the q and a P Castaing mentioned they'd withheld a licence because the (female) business applicant had a young family. Personally I don't think that's ok.


That's discrimination according to the equality act 2010 iirc.


----------



## soupdragon (Jun 23, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> At the q and a P Castaing mentioned they'd withheld a licence because the (female) business applicant had a young family.


How paternalistic! Maybe that's the real meaning of 'Pop'...


----------



## Rushy (Jun 23, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> I think it's quite a struggle for small businesses to stay open seven days a week. That equates to no (family) life. At the q and a P Castaing mentioned they'd withheld a licence because the (female) business applicant had a young family. Personally I don't think that's ok.


I was at that meeting and don't remember hearing anything like that. Pop wouldn't have responsibility for issuing licences so is it possible you misunderstood?


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jun 23, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> I think it's quite a struggle for small businesses to stay open seven days a week. That equates to no (family) life. At the q and a P Castaing mentioned they'd withheld a licence because the (female) business applicant had a young family. Personally I don't think that's ok.


 
I think he said more along the lines of she chose not to take a unit because she couldnt commit to opening 7 days a week due to having a young family.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I was at that meeting and don't remember hearing anything like that. Pop wouldn't have responsibility for issuing licences so is it possible you misunderstood?


I don't remember him saying that. But the licences would surely be licenses to occupy - not alcohol licences, so integral to leasing/renting at Pop I would have thought.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 24, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I don't remember him saying that. But the licences would surely be licenses to occupy - not alcohol licences, so integral to leasing/renting at Pop I would have thought.


Appears to have misunderstood or misheard.


----------



## blameless77 (Jun 24, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I think he said more along the lines of she chose not to take a unit because she couldnt commit to opening 7 days a week due to having a young family.



Yes - that's what I meant. Not alcohol licence, but rental contract. He did present it more as 'I told her not to go forward with it' - yes, paternalistic. Is it common for businesses to be required to open seven days a week?


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 24, 2015)

editor said:


> But given the amount of hype and PR that's been sent its way, I was surprised to see it so incredibly empty.



That's because Pop is crap. All the bright young things need constant distraction and a sense of being in the right place at the right time, and despite the finest hype and PR efforts Pop is pretty lame - just another booze and eatery place in a non too spectacular environment.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 24, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> Yes - that's what I meant. Not alcohol licence, but rental contract. He did present it more as 'I told her not to go forward with it' - yes, paternalistic. Is it common for businesses to be required to open seven days a week?


Big difference between "she chose" as Diet Coke Girl said and "he told her". Pretty sure I'd have recalled him saying something quite so dodgy.

Yes. It's common for groups of shops to have to open 6 or seven days a week as having some units only open at peak times could detrimentally affect other businesses. I'd have thought that the seven in this case would be because once the office community opens up it will have both a weekday and weekend identity. It does seem a bit pointless for some of the shops though - e.g. Clothes/jewellery. I'd have thought an optional one day closure (Monday or Tuesday) would be workable  - as long as all on same day. No doubt some of the food /coffee places would choose to stay open anyway to service the office folk.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> Is it common for businesses to be required to open seven days a week?


It's pretty common for tourist-luring foodie/shopping destinations.


----------



## blameless77 (Jun 24, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Big difference between "she chose" as Diet Coke Girl said and "he told her". Pretty sure I'd have recalled him saying something quite so dodgy.
> 
> Yes. It's common for groups of shops to have to open 6 or seven days a week as having some units only open at peak times could detrimentally affect other businesses. I'd have thought that the seven in this case would be because once the office community opens up it will have both a weekday and weekend identity. It does seem a bit pointless for some of the shops though - e.g. Clothes/jewellery. I'd have thought an optional one day closure (Monday or Tuesday) would be workable  - as long as all on same day. No doubt some of the food /coffee places would choose to stay open anyway to service the office folk.



Fair enough - thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Boudicca (Jun 24, 2015)

blameless77 said:


> Is it common for businesses to be required to open seven days a week?



Same in Greenwich market (my friend has a shop there). The landlords don't want shoppers/tourists to turn up and only half the shops be open.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 24, 2015)

Minimum trading hours are extremely common in multiple retail facilities.

Tourist driven or otherwise.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 24, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> That's because Pop is crap. All the bright young things need constant distraction and a sense of being in the right place at the right time, and despite the finest hype and PR efforts Pop is pretty lame - just another booze and eatery place in a non too spectacular environment.



One problem is that the very high rents make life difficult for the independent food places in there, which is why Kaff has called it a day.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 24, 2015)

leanderman said:


> One problem is that the very high rents make life difficult for the independent food places in there, which is why Kaff has called it a day.



I'd be surprised if they were not aware of the rent demands before they went and signed on the dotted line.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 24, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I'd be surprised if they were not aware of the rent demands before they went and signed on the dotted line.



No doubt.


----------



## Twattor (Jun 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> They have a lease for a period of something like 2 yrs. Obviously that can be extended. Planning permission was for up to 5 years.



May I refer the learned gentleman to the case of the millenium wheel which i believe only had planning permission for 5 years


----------



## Rushy (Jun 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> May I refer the learned gentleman to the case of the millenium wheel which i believe only had planning permission for 5 years


You may. Retrospect is a fine thing as I'm sure the learned gentlemen appreciates.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 25, 2015)

Twattor said:


> May I refer the learned gentleman to the case of the millenium wheel which i believe only had planning permission for 5 years


You may. Retrospect is a fine thing and not the same things as prior guarantee. As I'm sure the learned gentlemen appreciates.


----------



## ash (Jun 25, 2015)

After I visited on the third day I have been fairly neutral up untiI now.

I 'popped' in today and now have to agree with the anti view. I don't think that race is the issue, I'm not totally sure it is class? I felt an attitude and sense of entitlement  and agree that it felt like a bubble. As an everyday brixton person I felt very out of place.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 25, 2015)

ash said:


> I don't think that race is the issue, I'm not totally sure it is class?


I should think its age that is the issue speaking as a neo-pensionable Beehive user.
Maybe those only approaching middle age also feel uncomfortable! (Except the management)


----------



## leanderman (Jun 26, 2015)

ash said:


> After I visited on the third day I have been fairly neutral up untiI now.
> 
> I 'popped' in today and now have to agree with the anti view. I don't think that race is the issue, I'm not totally sure it is class? I felt an attitude and sense of entitlement  and agree that it felt like a bubble. As an everyday brixton person I felt very out of place.



Difficult to define the terms you use. 

I don't believe there is an 'everyday brixton person'. 

I just feel old when I go in there. 

But I get your idea about 'entitlement' too.


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Jun 26, 2015)

Brixton has officially "Jumped the Shark". Pop is unbelievably shit.


----------



## editor (Jun 26, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I just feel old when I go in there.


I just feel poor.


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 26, 2015)

I doubt that.


----------



## boohoo (Jun 26, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I doubt that.




leaps straight in there! Bet you've been chomping at the bit during your ban 

Poor is relative. I'm sure comfortable off people feel poor in many of the shops in Bond Street.

I am quite hard up but I look at the wonderful sunset and am glad I manage to pay my bills, am healthy and pretty content.


----------



## shifting gears (Jun 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I doubt that.



Why don't you just fuck off for good? 

We both know who you are and the fact you're a returning poster with an axe to grind, under another tedious alias.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

Quimcunx and I went to Pop yesterday evening, from 1900-2000. We had a double VAT and a Pimms flavoured cider (she had that, was like melted sweets ) - relatively reasonably priced at ~£8.

It was full but not packed, got fuller as time went on. Seemed to be after-workers as some shirt sleevey chaps with nice shoes, plus lots of young people that I recognised from when I was a young person.

I didn't really get it. Is it all food? Not work/retail spaces too? Some containers were piled up and I'm not sure there's space to have, um, ladders to have the  higher one in use? Isn't the market all food too? So much food. Relentless Colombian (edited!) food. Surely there is a food tipping point?

It looked to me (idly) like it could be useful if the 'street level' was food/bars and the higher level was maybe desk hire for small biz/start ups with stairs up the back...? A hub? Does the area have that already?


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 27, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> Some containers were piled up and I'm not sure there's space to have, um, ladders to have the  higher one in use?



I noticed that. I reckon they're storing it up there to put somewhere else eventually. 

Unless it's going to be an abseilers bar.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> I noticed that. I reckon they're storing it up there to put somewhere else eventually.
> 
> Unless it's going to be an abseilers bar.


Maybe stairs inside so a place has stories? 

Put them where else? There's no space to expand, I don't think.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 27, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> Quimcunx and I went to Pop yesterday evening, from 1900-2000. We had a double VAT and a Pimms flavoured cider (she had that, was like melted sweets ) - relatively reasonably priced at ~£8.
> 
> It was full but not packed, got fuller as time went on. Seemed to be after-workers as some shirt sleevey chaps with nice shoes, plus lots of young people that I recognised from when I was a young person.
> 
> ...



It's two thirds non-food. But the food has come first.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It's two thirds non-food. But the food has come first.


Soz, I've not read the whole thread. What else is it/is it going to be?


----------



## ddraig (Jun 27, 2015)

Col*o*mbian


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

I did some investigating. 1 or 2 of the highest containers are apparently for a radio station - the idea is they bring in dozens of local yoof for training/experience.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> Col*o*mbian



Oops


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> Soz, I've not read the whole thread. What else is it/is it going to be?


The FAQ seems to say quite a lot now:

http://www.popbrixton.org/#!faq/ckfi


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> The FAQ seems to say quite a lot now:
> 
> http://www.popbrixton.org/#!faq/ckfi


Cool, that's answers that then 



> A project to support local jobs, training and enterprise.
> 
> - A pioneering new space in the heart of Brixton for local start-ups, small businesses and creative community organisations ,where they can share space, skills and ideas.


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2015)

"Tenants have been selected based not only on the quality of their business plan, but also to maximise benefit to the local community."


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

It feels particularly ambitious if the idea is to create 200 jobs, even more training opportunities and yet also be a hip retail and social space. I guess the idea is everything feeds off everything else to create something bigger but I can't think I've seen it tried anywhere else. 

Unless you totally relax about *identity* it's ... a lot.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

editor said:


> "Tenants have been selected based not only on the quality of their business plan, but also to maximise benefit to the local community."


Seems a bit of a strain to be 100% of benefit to a community they won't be able to afford to be based in come '17


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2015)

Makes my skin crawl to know that these uber-capitalist property developer cunts are involved: 



> Who is The Collective and what is their involvement?
> 
> - The Collective was founded in 2010 by entrepreneur Reza Merchant, and is formed by a group of Millennials on a mission to redefine the way young people live, work and play.
> 
> ...


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

Hassle free way of life, comparable to a hotel? 

That's Mum and dads house in Godalming, isn't it?


----------



## isvicthere? (Jun 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> NZ wine shop is also taking B£



In large quantities!


----------



## isvicthere? (Jun 27, 2015)

Gixxer1000 said:


> View attachment 73233 Brixton has officially "Jumped the Shark". Pop is unbelievably shit.



Post of the thread!


----------



## Twattor (Jun 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I did some investigating. 1 or 2 of the highest containers are apparently for a radio station - the idea is they bring in dozens of local yoof for training/experience.



I'm not convinced by that; just can't see a rationale, let alone a commercial reason.

There's a whole lot of bullshit floating around at the moment and I'm afraid in this situation I won't trust anyone without the benefit of hindsight.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jun 27, 2015)

Twattor said:


> I'm not convinced by that; just can't see a rationale, let alone a commercial reason.
> 
> There's a whole lot of bullshit floating around at the moment and I'm afraid in this situation I won't trust anyone without the benefit of hindsight.


It's seems obvious after reading the site linked above - they have two years to play with the space. Bring in as much groovy stuff and things and people and publicity as poss,  then in 2017 just drop it all and move on to somewhere else with another notch on the CV.


----------



## gdubz (Jun 27, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> It's seems obvious after reading the site linked above - they have two years to play with the space. Bring in as much groovy stuff and things and people and publicity as poss,  then in 2017 just drop it all and move on to somewhere else with another notch on the CV.


What if they did help some local "yoof", even if they then close. Anything to help local young people would be good, you would hope...


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

Oh yeah, it's "obvious". It's all about a "CV". £1.5 million of investment to improve a CV. You've def found them out.

Just how many ... notches ... on a CV can one person want!!


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

I saw the Highly Approved two-bob Granville Market was closed today - any ideas why?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> The animosity towards her is because she's selling wine. From Pop. If she was knocking out cider from a khazi round the corner and had friends on U75, she'd be being lauded on these boards and Urbs would be queuing to support her!


LOL. Genius. Post of the Thread, sir.


----------



## Twattor (Jun 27, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> It's seems obvious after reading the site linked above - they have two years to play with the space. Bring in as much groovy stuff and things and people and publicity as poss,  then in 2017 just drop it all and move on to somewhere else with another notch on the CV.



In the commercial world you don't need to do 2 years. Take the uplift and run before you're found out.  The fundamental problem of short-termism, and the only people to benefit (other than the inept who take the springboard) are those who can put it right.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I saw the Highly Approved two-bob Granville Market was closed today - any ideas why?


It may have been because of the Somerleyton Rd street party.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I saw the Highly Approved two-bob Granville Market was closed today - any ideas why?


what is two-bob about it?


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> what is two-bob about it?



"Two-bob bit" = shit.

CRS, innit.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 27, 2015)

ah! ta geez


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 27, 2015)

Ya welcome, Merchant.


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2015)

Here's how Pop Brixton looks today.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 27, 2015)

if I'd known that Orang Utan was going down (top pic) I'd have made an effort to meet him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Here's how Pop Brixton looks today.
> 
> View attachment 73278 View attachment 73279



Maybe I just have appalling eyesight, but I can only see a single black face in that crowd. 
To me that signals that it doesn't appeal to a broad spectrum of locals. I wonder why?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> if I'd known that Orang Utan was going down (top pic) I'd have made an effort to meet him.



OU keeps his beard a bit more kempt and non-hipster than that, I believe.


----------



## Winot (Jun 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Maybe I just have appalling eyesight, but I can only see a single black face in that crowd.
> To me that signals that it doesn't appeal to a broad spectrum of locals. I wonder why?



Looks like a similar mix to the Reclaim Brixton meeting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2015)

Winot said:


> Looks like a similar mix to the Reclaim Brixton meeting.



Although to be fair, attendees said that the above photo wasn't representative (one of those attendees being a Black British neighbour).


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 27, 2015)

Thank goodness Brixton Buzz is preserving a permanent record of these events


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 27, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> OU keeps his beard a bit more kempt and non-hipster than that, I believe.


Yeah, but I still would.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jun 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Makes my skin crawl to know that these uber-capitalist property developer cunts are involved:



This makes my skin crawl. I wanted to mock sections of it, but virtually every word is unwittingly self-satirical.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Makes my skin crawl to know that these uber-capitalist property developer cunts are involved:





> - The Collective was founded in 2010 by entrepreneur Reza Merchant, and is formed by a group of Millennials on a mission to redefine the way young people live, work and play.






> - Away from Pop Brixton, The Collective is pioneering a new form of rental accommodation for young professionals aged 21-35. It focuses on providing a hassle free way of life with an all inclusive service offering and social amenities comparable to those of a hotel, at an affordable price.






> - The Collective recently launched The Collective Elevator, which provides high quality co-working space, centred around building a community, and access to investment for high growth start-ups.




But it's just sheer prejudice if people oppose this, clearly. Why do you hate New Zealand?


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

"black faces": LOL. Dig that hole a little deeper whydoncha ...


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Here's how Pop Brixton looks today.
> 
> View attachment 73278 View attachment 73279


Don't you ever feel a little creepy hanging around the entrance with a camera.


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Don't you ever feel a little creepy hanging around the entrance with a camera.


I'm afraid the days of you being able to post up nasty little personal slurs like that are long gone. 

FYI: I was actually talking to friends who were visiting Pop for the frst time. They found it so uncomfortable inside (in their words: "horrible, super white Clapham" ) that they'd decided to take their rip off £5 pints outside. They won't be coming back.


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2015)

Winot said:


> Looks like a similar mix to the Reclaim Brixton meeting.


Shame you didn't actually bother to go to that meeting and the subsequent ones.


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Thank goodness Brixton Buzz is preserving a permanent record of these events


Is there a point to this post? I've been taking photos of Brixton life for 20 years.


----------



## Winot (Jun 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Shame you didn't actually bother to go to that meeting and the subsequent ones.



How did you know I was black


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Is there a point to this post? I've been taking photos of Brixton life for 20 years.



That's was I was saying; it's a good thing


----------



## Up the junction (Jun 28, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm afraid the days of you being able to post up nasty little personal slurs like that are long gone.
> 
> FYI: I was actually talking to friends who were visiting Pop for the frst time. They found it so uncomfortable inside (in their words: "horrible, super white Clapham" ) that they'd decided to take their rip off £5 pints outside. They won't be coming back.


Who do you think is interested in your little *anecdotes*. Really, we're supposed to care what someone who thought it was a good idea to spend £5 on a pint did with it?  Why is that worth sharing.

"FYI", in other news, some random bloke spent £3.00 in the Beehive and bought 2 lottery tickets later. I believe he plans on a giant dump after breakfast.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 28, 2015)




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## alfajobrob (Jun 28, 2015)

I'm seriously laughing at all the new Londoner's mewing like a bunch of kittens. The older ones should understand the history and progressive nature of the City however.


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## isvicthere? (Jun 28, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm seriously laughing at all the new Londoner's mewing like a bunch of kittens. The older ones should understand the history and progressive nature of the City however.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> "black faces": LOL. Dig that hole a little deeper whydoncha ...



What hole's that?


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 28, 2015)

It was not homogenously white on Friday at all. Of course, I am unable to say how everyone identified themselves but to a casual glance (staring at attractive people in shirtsleeves) not everyone was as pale as quimmy at all.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm seriously laughing at all the new Londoner's mewing like a bunch of kittens. The older ones should understand the history and progressive nature of the City however.



I've lived here most of my life, mostly on council estates, and I *do* understand the history and nature of London.
That's actually why I rail against the current "gentrification" - because it's *nothing* like what has gone before, and anyone who believes it is, obviously *doesn't* understand the history and nature of London.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> It was not homogenously white on Friday at all. Of course, I am unable to say how everyone identified themselves but to a casual glance (staring at attractive people in shirtsleeves) not everyone was as pale as quimmy at all.



I (the person who posted the original comment about only being able to see "a single black face") wasn't commenting on degrees of "whiteness", or the lack of shades of skin tones. I was commenting on two pictures showing only one black (in the current "Afro-Caribbean or Sub-Saharan African" meaning, rather than the old political meaning) person there. Why was I commenting? Because this is Brixton, well-known for decades for its large "black" community, so a scene where the demographic isn't reflected tends to stand out a bit.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 28, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I (the person who posted the original comment about only being able to see "a single black face") wasn't commenting on degrees of "whiteness", or the lack of shades of skin tones. I was commenting on two pictures showing only one black (in the current "Afro-Caribbean or Sub-Saharan African" meaning, rather than the old political meaning) person there. Why was I commenting? Because this is Brixton, well-known for decades for its large "black" community, so a scene where the demographic isn't reflected tends to stand out a bit.





Spoiler



Well, I suppose I now wish I'd taken a picture on Friday and we could have had some fun counting up who looks white and who looks black and who looks all the various mixtures in between. Because I'm telling you _I was conscious of this thread and the many views expressed on various others as to has-Brixton-has-got-whiter _while I was staring at attractive black men (as far as I could tell)  in shirt sleeves, while swigging my reasonably priced vodka and tonic. 

This is my contribution: I was satisfied there were tons of various people there on Friday 26 June 2015 between 1900-2000BST.



Why am I engaging? I'm going to get this wrong whatever I say


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why are you "going to get this wrong"?
I think you're missing my point, looking for something that isn't there. I'll run it by you again.
2 *photos*, only 1 black face.
This isn't an argument that Brixton has got whiter, it's about the fact that two (I assume) random photos recorded the above "one black face". In an area with a multicultural population like ours, that's unusual.  I could go to a dozen different locations in Brixton, take pics and not have that happen. My question was "why" - I surmised that it might mean that Pop doesn't appeal broadly, but I made no claims. In fact I'm grateful that you posted a contrary experience, purely because I really dislike the idea of some kind of perverse self-segregation effect.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 28, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why are you "going to get this wrong"?
> I think you're missing my point, looking for something that isn't there. I'll run it by you again.
> 2 *photos*, only 1 black face.
> This isn't an argument that Brixton has got whiter, it's about the fact that two (I assume) random photos recorded the above "one black face". In an area with a multicultural population like ours, that's unusual.  I could go to a dozen different locations in Brixton, take pics and not have that happen. My question was "why" - I surmised that it might mean that Pop doesn't appeal broadly, but I made no claims. In fact I'm grateful that you posted a contrary experience, purely because I really dislike the idea of some kind of perverse self-segregation effect.



I think there are lots of pubs in Brixton that still have the same mix, but also there have also been lots of places that have had "self segregation effect" as well. As a point think of what you used to have in the Hamilton where everyone would go compared to Harmony or the Brockwell Park tavern which had a predominately black\white clientele. What's changed?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I think there are lots of pubs in Brixton that still have the same mix, but also there have also been lots of places that have had "self segregation effect" as well. As a point think of what you used to have in the Hamilton where everyone would go compared to Harmony or the Brockwell Park tavern which had a predominately black\white clientele. What's changed?



Mostly, the local population demographic around the pubs have changed, as far as I've been able to observe over the last 30 years or so. I'll try to explain myself a bit better:
in the '70s and '80s, Brixton's Afro-Caribbean population was mostly housed either in private rental accommodation (often rented from 1st gen. A-C immigrants, in (to a lesser degree) council housing or (to a small but increasing degree) owner/occupancy.
That meant a fair "spread" of people over the area, but also meant "pockets" of concentration of whites and blacks, hence some "black" pubs, some "white" pubs, and some "mixed" pubs.

Since the '90s there's been a distinct flow (perfectly understandable and perfectly reasonable IMO) of A-C owner-occupiers out of Brixton and into Lambeth's southern borders (Streatham, Thornton Heath etc) as they've cashed up and moved to "safer" areas where they could buy a larger house for the same money - rational behaviour if you've a growing family. Alongside this we've had about 15 years now of rising private rental rates which have forced families in private rentals to also look beyond Brixton for "affordable" housing, and the residualisation of those "fortunate" enough to qualify for council housing onto estates whose housing stock is slowly but perpetually shrinking. That original population spread across Brixton has turned the situation on its head. Now it's mostly concentration of the A-C heritage population in a few areas, with the pub demographic mostly economically-determined - if you can afford to drink, you drink!

None of that, of course affects those who might feel that they don't want to drink in the same pub as black people/white people/whatever kind of people.


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## alfajobrob (Jun 28, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mostly, the local population demographic around the pubs have changed, as far as I've been able to observe over the last 30 years or so. I'll try to explain myself a bit better:
> in the '70s and '80s, Brixton's Afro-Caribbean population was mostly housed either in private rental accommodation (often rented from 1st gen. A-C immigrants, in (to a lesser degree) council housing or (to a small but increasing degree) owner/occupancy.
> That meant a fair "spread" of people over the area, but also meant "pockets" of concentration of whites and blacks, hence some "black" pubs, some "white" pubs, and some "mixed" pubs.
> 
> ...



That makes sense. Thanks for explaining and I think we do agree it is all about the money. I don't think pop is anymore inherently racist than society as a whole.

I have no idea why I'm posting this btw. I'll never go. I still haven't been to the village and go past every feckin day.


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## Winot (Jun 28, 2015)

Finally visited Pop Brixton. Nice atmosphere - very relaxed and friendly. Racially diverse crowd - more so than the Village (on my recent visits). As others have said, can't see that it will work when it's raining/cold, but was fun tonight.


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## CH1 (Jun 28, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I think there are lots of pubs in Brixton that still have the same mix, but also there have also been lots of places that have had "self segregation effect" as well. As a point think of what you used to have in the Hamilton where everyone would go compared to Harmony or the Brockwell Park tavern which had a predominately black\white clientele. What's changed?





ViolentPanda said:


> Mostly, the local population demographic around the pubs have changed, as far as I've been able to observe over the last 30 years or so. I'll try to explain myself a bit better:
> in the '70s and '80s, Brixton's Afro-Caribbean population was mostly housed either in private rental accommodation (often rented from 1st gen. A-C immigrants, in (to a lesser degree) council housing or (to a small but increasing degree) owner/occupancy.
> That meant a fair "spread" of people over the area, but also meant "pockets" of concentration of whites and blacks, hence some "black" pubs, some "white" pubs, and some "mixed" pubs.
> 
> ...


The demise of the tenanted pub has also changed the pub-running business such that whereas 20 or 30 years ago you had quite a few key pub sites with black landlords. With the advent of the PubCo running a pub became much riskier and subject to the whims of the bank manager for someone going it alone. Obviously there are some chains (none black owned) who tend to employ the cheapest staff they can get.

So in short not just the demographic around pubs - but also the demographic of the guvnors in particular and also therefore staff.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 28, 2015)

Winot said:


> Finally visited Pop Brixton. Nice atmosphere - very relaxed and friendly. Racially diverse crowd - more so than the Village (on my recent visits). As others have said, can't see that it will work when it's raining/cold, but was fun tonight.


No pictures?


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## Winot (Jun 28, 2015)

5t3IIa said:


> No pictures?



A crappy one of the poly tunnel area.


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## Up the junction (Jun 28, 2015)

For accuracy, did you ask the ethnic makeup of the man standing behind the fifth person sitting to the left and the woman behind him?

Also, the woman standing in the red and white skirt looks like English may not be her first language, did you think to ask?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 28, 2015)




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## editor (Jun 28, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> For accuracy, did you ask the ethnic makeup of the man standing behind the fifth person sitting to the left and the woman behind him?
> 
> Also, the woman standing in the red and white skirt looks like English may not be her first language, did you think to ask?


Can you stop trying to disrupt threads with your pointless and inane comments please?


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## Up the junction (Jun 28, 2015)

Sure.


ViolentPanda said:


> Maybe I just have appalling eyesight, but I can only see a single black face in that crowd.


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## Up the junction (Jun 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Can you stop trying to disrupt threads with your pointless and inane comments please?


Any idea what your friend who paid £5.00 for a pint did today?


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## editor (Jun 28, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Any idea what your friend who paid £5.00 for a pint did today?


No idea what you're on about but if you keep up this disruptive crap you'll get another warning.


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## Maharani (Jun 29, 2015)

Winot said:


> A crappy one of the poly tunnel area.


any idea when they're getting their real furniture delivered?


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## Up the junction (Jun 29, 2015)

editor said:


> No idea what you're on about but if you keep up this disruptive crap you'll get another warning.


ok daddy. Sorry daddy.


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## footballerslegs (Jun 29, 2015)

Fwiw i went in one evening last week between 6-7. Very diverse crowd, not just in terms of ethnicity but also ages; post office workers having a pint, a few families checking out food from different stalls and some people who may or may not have been hipsters (but who certainly committed the crime of being young) coming in as we were leaving. Not really my thing for various reasons but chatted to a few stall holders who seemed pretty passionate and earnest about the opportunity to try out their small business ideas. 

I didn't take a photo (tbh I object to the idea of taking pics of crowds and then inviting a narrative around it as 'evidence', much as I would hate to find myself part of such a picture and interpretation).


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## stuff_it (Jul 1, 2015)

Winot said:


> Finally visited Pop Brixton. Nice atmosphere - very relaxed and friendly. Racially diverse crowd - more so than the Village (on my recent visits). As others have said, can't see that it will work when it's raining/cold, but was fun tonight.


There's a saying that if you won't work outside in the rain in the UK that you may never work again.


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## Peanut Monkey (Jul 1, 2015)

I've been to Pop a couple of times, both times I stayed for less than an hour. Mainly because it's just a bit rubbish. It reminds me of Camden Market after Camden Market became shit. It's very obviously for people who come to Brixton not for people from Brixton. You could take Pop and drop it anywhere in London.

It is what it is. They better make hay while the sun shines though as come winter surely it'll be a ghost town.


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## editor (Jul 1, 2015)

Peanut Monkey said:


> I've been to Pop a couple of times, both times I stayed for less than an hour. Mainly because it's just a bit rubbish. It reminds me of Camden Market after Camden Market became shit. It's very obviously for people who come to Brixton not for people from Brixton. You could take Pop and drop it anywhere in London.


That's what I thought from the start. I remember when Camden was a genuinely interesting place with interesting characters and its own scene, but it's an awful, soulless place now. The arrival of bland, anytown, tourist ventures like Pop Brixton make me worry for Brixton too.


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 1, 2015)

.(edited cos i buggered up the quote thing)
Peanut Monkey said: They better make hay while the sun shines though as come winter surely it'll be a ghost town.

This, it will be interesting to see what happens if some of the current businesses go under. Who will replace them, and will they have to be local.


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## CH1 (Jul 2, 2015)

I thought people might appreciate a photo showing how vibrant Popes Road was in 1972. Note the discreetly signed Tescos - which was actually almost as big as the Acre Lane incarnation (only without the car par).

Stalls look better used and better laid out than now.

Also note the gleaming municipal, Pop car park - before Lambeth allowed it to decay into an allegedly unsafe structure.

P.S. Note the chimneys mid-left. Must be buildings where the Brixton Rec is now.


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## teuchter (Jul 2, 2015)

I see the Chartham Court tower has got a kid of fancy frame thing on the top which I don't think is there any more.


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## CH1 (Jul 2, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I see the Chartham Court tower has got a kid of fancy frame thing on the top which I don't think is there any more.


Isn't that what they use to clean the windows? Maybe window cleaning is no longer the council's responsibility?


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## Tricky Skills (Jul 3, 2015)

Pop Brixton is many things to many people.

For some it is the backdrop for a fashion shoot.


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## boohoo (Jul 3, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Pop Brixton is many things to many people.
> 
> For some it is the backdrop for a fashion shoot.




Container city at Trinity Buoy is in a Bollywood movie. I think Brixton would make a great set for a bollywood dance scene.


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## editor (Jul 4, 2015)

I'm hearing more about how some Brixton Village units - and some of the surrounding restaurants - have been hit really hard by the arrival of Pop Brixton.

One long standing business told me today that their takings are down by 75% and that they're thinking of shutting up shop.


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## choochi (Jul 4, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm hearing more about how some Brixton Village units - and some of the surrounding restaurants - have been hit really hard by the arrival of Pop Brixton.
> 
> One long standing business told me today that their takings are down by 75% and that they're thinking of shutting up shop.



Tourists will move onto the next big thing whether that be elsewhere in Brixton or in some other place. To be truly sustainable these businesses need to attract the locals.


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## Belushi (Jul 4, 2015)

There's a hell of a lot of eating options in Brixton nowadays


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## 299 old timer (Jul 4, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm hearing more about how some Brixton Village units - and some of the surrounding restaurants - have been hit really hard by the arrival of Pop Brixton.
> 
> One long standing business told me today that their takings are down by 75% and that they're thinking of shutting up shop.



So what you are saying is that 75% of their business has gone to Pop Brixton?


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## cuppa tee (Jul 4, 2015)

these foodie faddists are like a fucking plague of locusts
drop in on a place, gorge themselves silly and move on to the next one


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> So what you are saying is that 75% of their business has gone to Pop Brixton?



No, what he's saying is that a local business has told him that their *takings* are down by up to 75%. It's not the same thing. they could still have 50% or more of their business volume, but the less profitable 50%, hence the hit on their *takings*.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> these foodie faddists are like a fucking plague of locusts
> drop in on a place, gorge themselves silly and move on to the next one



Like Mr Creosote, but without the manners.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 4, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm hearing more about how some Brixton Village units - and some of the surrounding restaurants - have been hit really hard by the arrival of Pop Brixton.
> 
> One long standing business told me today that their takings are down by 75% and that they're thinking of shutting up shop.


Pop Brixton has taken 75% of their business?? I simply don't believe that's true. What is this business?


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## editor (Jul 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Pop Brixton has taken 75% of their business?? I simply don't believe that's true. What is this business?


I didn't say that. I said that their _takings_ are down by 75%.

I'm sorry you don't believe it but that's what I was told by one of the owners who I've known for many, many years. I don't think it would be fair to post the name of the business up, but if things continue, you'll know soon enough when they close.

(I would ask others not to post up their guesses too, please)


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## Mr Retro (Jul 4, 2015)

So the mention of the arrival of Pop Brixton in your first sentence was not meant to be taken as related to the reduced takings of the business in question in your second? Can you see how that might be a little confusing for people to follow what you mean?


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## editor (Jul 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So the mention of the arrival of Pop Brixton in your first sentence was not meant to be taken as related to the reduced takings of the business in question in your second? Can you see how that might be a little confusing for people to follow what you mean?


Too hot for a nitpicking argument I'm afraid, but I accurately reported what I was told. Many Village traders have reported a drop in takings since Pop Brixton opened, and some say things have been really bad.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 4, 2015)

editor said:


> Too hot for a nitpicking argument I'm afraid, but I accurately reported what I was told. Many Village traders have reported a drop in takings since Pop Brixton opened, and some say things have been really bad.


It's not nitpicking but you say things that are either unverifiable or not proven, to fit your narritive and then retreat with a "nitpicking" excuse when somebody makes a legitimate point questioning it. It's dishonest. I question you because I was in the village on Tuesday and it was as busy as I can ever remember it.


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## editor (Jul 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It's not nitpicking but you say things that are either unverifiable are not proven, to fit your narrutIve and then retreat with a "nitpicking" excuse when somebody makes a legitimate point questioning it. It's dishonest. I question you because I was in the village on Tuesday and it was as busy as I can ever remember it.


OK, so you believe that it has had no impact at all because you visited on Tuesday and it was busy. That's fine. I spoke to traders and some say differently, and this poster - who also talked to a trader - seems to have a different view too:


organicpanda said:


> it would appear that Pop is having a detrimental effect on the Village according to one of the owners there - takings are down dramatically apparently


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## Mr Retro (Jul 4, 2015)

editor said:


> OK, so you believe that it has no impact at all. That's fine.


I didn't say that. I questioned your point because it appeared to me to be as busy as ever in the village on Tuesday, that's all.  You have chosen to become defensive rather than choose to discuss which is fine. I might too if what I was saying was challenged and unverifiable. 

For clarity why does this business believe takings are down 75%?


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## editor (Jul 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I didn't say that. I questioned your point because it appeared to me to be as busy as ever in the village on Tuesday, that's all.


Oh well. Best ignore the words of people who have actually spoken to traders, then. End of discussion. Night.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 4, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh well. Best ignore the words of people who have actually spoken to traders, then. End of discussion. Night.


Jesus wept


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Jesus wept



Probably at the fact that it was your laziness in reading the original post you reacted to, that started all this off, and even after I'd explained to someone else that 75% of takings is different to 75% of trade.
Jesus is weeping because you're a dummy.


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## uk benzo (Jul 5, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Pop Brixton has taken 75% of their business?? I simply don't believe that's true. What is this business?



It is possible that many factors have contributed to the reduction in business- pop brixton, hot weather, holidays etc. But yes, 75% is a rather large number.


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## deadringer (Jul 5, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> these foodie faddists are like a fucking plague of locusts
> drop in on a place, gorge themselves silly and move on to the next one



Or people just like trying something new


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## editor (Jul 5, 2015)

uk benzo said:


> It is possible that many factors have contributed to the reduction in business- pop brixton, hot weather, holidays etc. But yes, 75% is a rather large number.


Indeed it is. Big enough for them to consider jacking it all in.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed it is. Big enough for them to consider jacking it all in.


Does the business-which-cannot-be-named blame Pop for the 75% reduction in takings?


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## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Or people just like trying something new


Indeed, because what cuppa tee said about a "fucking plague of locusts" isn't actually true. But it fits the narrative so it gets liked and goes unchallenged.


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## editor (Jul 5, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Does the business-which-cannot-be-named blame Pop for the 75% reduction in takings?


They cited it as a substantially contributory factor, yes. Another poster commentated that a Village trader told them that they'd also seen a dramatic drop in takings, yet for some reason you don't seem so interested in questioning them endlessly on the topic. Strange, that.


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## cuppa tee (Jul 5, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Indeed, because what cuppa tee said about a "fucking plague of locusts" isn't actually true. But it fits the narrative so it gets liked and goes unchallenged.


.......in actual fact my post has generated two more posts expressing disapproval, with 'likes' on top, against only one 'like' for my post, in my present state of mind I might consider this a case of the oppressor making themselves look like the oppressed........


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## DietCokeGirl (Jul 5, 2015)

You can take it from me, who works part-time in a unit in the village, that footfall is down and restaurants are taking the hardest hit. There's a lot our management company could do, if they heeded the suggestions (like why not let the farmers market who're due to close use the area backing onto coldharbour lane for a nominal fee, as it's currently wasted space?) but in the meantime my friends are seeing their takings drop and their livelihoods at risk and that saddens me.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2015)

editor said:


> They cited it as a substantially contributory factor, yes. Another poster commentated that a Village trader told them that they'd also seen a dramatic drop in takings, yet for some reason you don't seem so interested in questioning them endlessly on the topic. Strange, that.


So the fact I'm questioning you and not another poster is strange? Why does it make a difference who I'm questioning if the questions I'm asking are legitimate? I only asked these questions based on your posts and you go into this defensive mode? It's all very bizarre indeed.

But I'll leave youze to it for a spell. I'm between contracts and am chilling out in Spain for a month. 

Love ye all


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## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> You can take it from me, who works part-time in a unit in the village, that footfall is down and restaurants are taking the hardest hit. There's a lot our management company could do, if they heeded the suggestions (like why not let the farmers market who're due to close use the area backing onto coldharbour lane for a nominal fee, as it's currently wasted space?) but in the meantime my friends are seeing their takings drop and their livelihoods at risk and that saddens me.


That's very much what I've been hearing too. I hope my friend's business survives, but when I visited it was near empty.


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## aussw9 (Jul 6, 2015)

Pop has been only barely a month, and they are thinking of packing it in now? Sounds like there are more issues than some new competition.


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## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Pop has been only barely a month, and they are thinking of packing it in now? Sounds like their are more issues than some new competition.


The bigger picture is the changing demographics and the sort of people that Brixton seems to be marketed at these days. It seems that that some of the older faces no longer fit the shiny nu-Brixton vision. 

PS A really shit month in business can easily finish off some smaller firms already battling with the huge rent hikes that have come in as a direct result of the gentrification and the 'Village Effect.'


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## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

I wasn't aware that the village nu-brixton traders had already been reclassified as old faces.

Or are we to understand that the Trader Who Shall Not Be Named is in the village but does not target the nu-Brixton market? In which case it's hard to see how Pop Brixton has taken their business away.


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## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Or are we to understand that the Trader Who Shall Not Be Named is in the village but does not target the nu-Brixton market?


We are not. And your usual dismissive sarcasm is duly noted, but surely even you can understand the reasons why the trader might not want to be named right now?


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## innit (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I wasn't aware that the village nu-brixton traders had already been reclassified as old faces.
> 
> Or are we to understand that the Trader Who Shall Not Be Named is in the village but does not target the nu-Brixton market? In which case it's hard to see how Pop Brixton has taken their business away.


Lots of the guys in the village have been there for donkey's years now. Rosie's been there over a decade, Franco Manca must be about 6 or 7 years? And the guys who came in through spacemakers, was that 2009 or 2010?


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## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

innit said:


> Lots of the guys in the village have been there for donkey's years now. Rosie's been there over a decade, Franco Manca must be about 6 or 7 years? And the guys who came in through spacemakers, was that 2009 or 2010?


Franco Manca opened in Brixton in 2008. It was sold for £27.5m this year. 


> *How London’s popular restaurants could be raising property prices*
> In Brixton and Hackney over the past few years, council involvement has helped to make food central to complex changes in the areas. Lambeth council gave free three-month leases to sites in Brixton Village in 2009, and a flowering of restaurants catering to a young, hip demographic soon followed. Some restaurateurs had already spotted the area’s potential, with Franco Manca moving into Brixton Market in 2008 before opening branches in Chiswick and Balham.
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/46dc44f0-29df-11e3-9bc6-00144feab7de.html


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## han (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Franco Manca opened in Brixton in 2008. It was sold for £27.5m this year.



AND their pizzas are shite! [emoji6] 
Seriously though, I've never got why they're so popular. 

Bravi Ragazzi in Streatham, run by a bunch of Neapolitans, is much more authentic, and in a different league in terms of pizza-deliciousness. 

Still, we're talking about the villarge, I digress. Franco Manca are amongst the pioneers of Brixton gentrification  aren't they? As are Federation Coffee, before them.


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## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

han said:


> As are Federation Coffee, before them.


The original owners have sold up and moved on too.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Franco Manca opened in Brixton in 2008. It was sold for £27.5m this year.


Interesting article - how surprising the author knew about the brothel/cinema near Farringdon Station. I guess the punters who read the FT Weekend like a bit of titillation.

I think the property price table at the end of the article understates property price rises in Brixton - simply because she is using a 250 metre radius, and obviously there was not too much property on the market within 250m of Franco Manga's when the article was written (2 years ago).

I think the table only takes account of sales - but if it were now, and took rentals into account you've got all those upmarket Lexadon flats,  both in Coldharbour Lane and Ruschroft Road.

Even though I reckon the restaurant factor is only part of the lure, who can deny that these new foodie establishments helped set the mood music for subsequent gentrification?


----------



## han (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> The original owners have sold up and moved on too.


So, did they make millions out of it too?


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 6, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Even though I reckon the restaurant factor is only part of the lure, who can deny that these new foodie establishments helped set the mood music for subsequent gentrification?



Then the original Franco from back in the 1980's was a proper 1st wave gentrifier - how ironic.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

han said:


> Still, we're talking about the villarge, I digress. Franco Manca are amongst the pioneers of Brixton gentrification  aren't they?


The funny thing was that they remained very affordable throughout. They're still really, really cheap now compared to many of the trendy restaurants that have  moved into the Villaaaage/Plop Brixton and Market Row.

£4.50 for a whole pizza is excellent value.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 6, 2015)

han said:


> So, did they make millions out of it too?



Not nearly the same money in coffee. 

You are right about Braviragazzi.


----------



## soupdragon (Jul 6, 2015)

A friend who lives in Hackney had a Franco Manca takeaway box in his house, and I said "oh Franco Manca" - and he said his kids had wanted a pizza from them and said "they're just some horrible chain who've moved into Broadway Market and are putting the old school family-run Italian restaurant opposite out of business".


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

So we have a Brixton Village trader, serving the nu-Brixton gentrification market for, perhaps, the last 5 years or so. And they are saying they are losing business to the slightly nu-er nu-Brixton traders who are in Pop Brixton.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> So we have a Brixton Village trader, serving the nu-Brixton gentrification market for, perhaps, the last 5 years or so. And they are saying they are losing business to the slightly nu-er nu-Brixton traders who are in Pop Brixton.


Which trader are you talking about?


----------



## innit (Jul 6, 2015)

han said:


> AND their pizzas are shite! [emoji6]
> Seriously though, I've never got why they're so popular.
> 
> Bravi Ragazzi in Streatham, run by a bunch of Neapolitans, is much more authentic, and in a different league in terms of pizza-deliciousness.
> ...


Franco Manca came before Feds. The Feds guys are ok for a couple of ex city boys and did seem genuine about brixton and coffee. Iirc they were there at the very beginning of spacemakers when opening up in the village was a risk.


----------



## innit (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> The funny thing was that they remained very affordable throughout. They're still really, really cheap now compared to many of the trendy restaurants that have  moved into the Villaaaage/Plop Brixton and Market Row.
> 
> £4.50 for a whole pizza is excellent value.


The guy who started the chain seems like an extreme right wing tool, but the business model of cheap and profitable is impressive!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Which trader are you talking about?


The one you were talking to who said they had suffered a 75% downturn in takings.Whoever they might be.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> The one you were talking to who said they had suffered a 75% downturn in takings.Whoever they might be.


Did I say they were in the village?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Did I say they were in the village?


Your original post suggested they were but I guess this is your way of telling me they are not.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Your original post suggested they were but I guess this is your way of telling me they are not.


I thought I made it very clear it wasn't just about the village right from the start.


> "I'm hearing more about how some Brixton Village units - *and some of the surrounding restaurants* - have been hit really hard by the arrival of Pop Brixton."



Your selective reading rather proves that you're still only here to argue and nitpick anyway, so I'll just ignore you until you have something constructive to add.


----------



## innit (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Your original post suggested they were but I guess this is your way of telling me they are not.


Why on earth would he want to give people fuel to guess which place he's talking about?  It's totally understandable to keep it a bit vague.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm just trying to understand what the moral of the anecdotal story of the mystery business in the mystery location is.

Is it that we should prevent space being made for new businesses to operate in, so as to protect the interests of businesses that got there first?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 6, 2015)

Is the trader that has seen a 75% drop a cafe/restaurant?


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I'm just trying to understand what the moral of the anecdotal story of the mystery business in the mystery location is.


There is no 'moral' to the story - why should there be?

This is a forum for Brixton news and chat, and I was just passing on what a trusted local trader had told me, and it's something that has been anecdotally supported by other posters here.


teuchter said:


> ...mystery business...mystery location


I know that you can't be so stupid as to not be able to understand why the business doesn't want to be named, so you're just being childish now.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 6, 2015)

How do these traders know that it is in Pop that has taken their customers away? Have they seen them at the Pop eateries / bars? Are their existing customers those foodie tourist types who are just looking for the next hip joint, or are they longstanding customers who regularly pop in (no pun intended) for a drink and a sarnie (or whatever)? If that is the case why would longstanding customers go to Pop?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 6, 2015)

According Pop Brixton's website, there are 18 new food and beverage places there. I don't really see why some people here seem to find so it hard to believe that this is likely to have a negative impact on existing businesses.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> How do these traders know that it is in Pop that has taken their customers away? Have they seen them at the Pop eateries / bars? Are their existing customers those foodie tourist types who are just looking for the next hip joint, or are they longstanding customers who regularly pop in (no pun intended) for a drink and a sarnie (or whatever)? If that is the case why would longstanding customers go to Pop?


You'll have to ask them yourself.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> You'll have to ask them yourself.



Let us know who they are and I will.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Let us know who they are and I will.


Do your own research. Go ask some traders yourself.


----------



## Winot (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> There is no 'moral' to the story - why should there be?
> 
> This is a forum for Brixton news and chat, and I was just passing on what a trusted local trader had told me, and it's something that has been anecdotally supported by other posters here.



Come off it - there's an obvious narrative here - you don't like Pop and are trying to slight it by implication.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> How do these traders know that it is in Pop that has taken their customers away? Have they seen them at the Pop eateries / bars? Are their existing customers those foodie tourist types who are just looking for the next hip joint, or are they longstanding customers who regularly pop in (no pun intended) for a drink and a sarnie (or whatever)? If that is the case why would longstanding customers go to Pop?


pick pick pick pick
yaaaaawn


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2015)

Winot said:


> Come off it - there's an obvious narrative here - you don't like Pop and are trying to slight it by implication.


and you like it so much you'll defend it to the death? 
or maybe you have a commercial interest in it, good for your house price, 'cleaning up the area' etc etc


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

Winot said:


> Come off it - there's an obvious narrative here - you don't like Pop and are trying to slight it by implication.


It's certainly I'm not a fan of the nu-Pop vision because I feel cheated. We were promised one thing and then got a business park venture involving some full on Thatcherite property developers with zero connections to the area. 

But trying to dismiss any commentary about older businesses appearing to be suffering a result of the place as just me pursuing some sort of 'narrative' is deeply unfair - and another example of the kind of ad hominems that drag this forum down time and time again.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 6, 2015)

Was reading an article about how gentrification causes LESS displacement. I.e the lower earners in those areas tend to flee less as there is less crime and more investment, cleaner streets, etc. That gentrified areas have less flow out of them from working class communities than when they were run down etc


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 6, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> According Pop Brixton's website, there are 18 new food and beverage places there. I don't really see why some people here seem to find so it hard to believe that this is likely to have a negative impact on existing businesses.



Yes that is possible, of course. But it depends on the nature of the business - I don't expect anyone who regularly has a full English breakfast is going to think "Today I fancy some ramen noodles with chorizo and parmesan shavings" - so it's horses for courses.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 6, 2015)

I'll try and dig it out. Don't shoot the messenger!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Pop has been only barely a month, and they are thinking of packing it in now? Sounds like there are more issues than some new competition.



Unfortunately, if you're operating on tight margins, a single bad month during what's usually a busier and more lucrative period for "hospitality" can cripple a business.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Unfortunately, if you're operating on tight margins, a single bad month during what's usually a busier and more lucrative period for "hospitality" can cripple a business.


Indeed. Add in the costs that have increased massively as a direct result of the upmarket foodie invasion/gentrification - plus the now-intense levels of competition - and it's easy to see why businesses that are already struggling to stay afloat are going to be hit for six when a new food-laden venture comes into town, supported by an absolute fuckton of local, national and international press.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> There is no 'moral' to the story - why should there be?
> 
> This is a forum for Brixton news and chat, and I was just passing on what a trusted local trader had told me, and it's something that has been anecdotally supported by other posters here.



My impression was that the anecdote was offered to back up the notion that Pop Brixton was taking some trade away from pre-existing businesses which target much the same customers. Fair enough. Seems plausible to me.

I also understand that you are unhappy about the reality of Pop Brixton not meeting what you feel was promised. Also fair enough. And fair enough to criticise it on that basis.

But I am not sure why you would have a problem with it taking away trade from other, pre-existing businesses that serve the same market.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 6, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Then the original Franco from back in the 1980's was a proper 1st wave gentrifier - how ironic.


Didn't know what you were going on about until I read this: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/sep/21/restaurants.foodanddrink1

So what was the actual situation in the 1980s then? My main recollection of that bit of Market Row was a trendy but inexpensive card shop called "Don't Panic" - one of whose sales asistants was a fanatic for Philip Glass and Arvo Pärt.

I was not aware of this restaurant or others in Market Row (probably cafes actually) being a "draw" to the property owning gentry.


----------



## Winot (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> But trying to dismiss any commentary about older businesses appearing to be suffering a result of the place as just me pursuing some sort of 'narrative' is deeply unfair - and another example of the kind of ad hominems that drag this forum down time and time again.



You need to stop using ad hominem incorrectly. I have not made any attacks on your character.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> But I am not sure why you would have a problem with it taking away trade from other, pre-existing businesses that serve the same market.


How about because I give a fuck about this particular business and feel that it's not a level playing field for them any more?


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

Winot said:


> You need to stop using ad hominem incorrectly. I have not made any attacks on your character.


Yes you have. You've projected an "obvious narrative" on to my words. And you were incorrect.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> How about because I give a fuck about this particular business and feel that it's not a level playing field for them any more?


Understandable that you want to see businesses you like doing well. But how has the field been un-levelled?

It is because you see the rents at Pop Brixton as being subsidised by the council?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed. Add in the costs that have increased massively as a direct result of the upmarket foodie invasion/gentrification - plus the now-intense levels of competition - and it's easy to see why businesses that are already struggling to stay afloat are going to be hit for six when a new food-laden venture comes into town, supported by an absolute fuckton of local, national and international press.


That's just the market though. Play with fire, you gonna get burnt. Anyone who sets up a business knows it might be worth buttons tomorrow 
.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 6, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Didn't know what you were going on about until I read this: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/sep/21/restaurants.foodanddrink1
> 
> So what was the actual situation in the 1980s then? My main recollection of that bit of Market Row was a trendy but inexpensive card shop called "Don't Panic" - one of whose sales asistants was a fanatic for Philip Glass and Arvo Pärt.
> 
> I was not aware of this restaurant or others in Market Row (probably cafes actually) being a "draw" to the property owning gentry.



Back in the mid 80's there was a pizzeria on the same site (the original one, on the right hand side, not the much later expansion opposite) - the owner/pizzaiolo was a certain Franco, young fellow who eventually moved back to Italy, if memory serves. As today there was room for a few tables inside and out. The pizza was far superior to what Franco Manca offers. You are right about the card shop, and in those days there were no foodie tourist types, just locals lucky enough to have an excellent pizzeria nearby. From (very vague) memory there weren't many eateries, it was still mainly traders selling fruit and veg, fish, meat etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Was reading an article about how gentrification causes LESS displacement. I.e the lower earners in those areas tend to flee less as there is less crime and more investment, cleaner streets, etc. That gentrified areas have less flow out of them from working class communities than when they were run down etc



Utterly dependent on how you define "working class" though,as well as "lower earners". If you're talking "lower than the average national wage", that generally includes the lower earners on the middle income scale (i.e. under £27,000 per annum), and often applies more to home-owners rather than all lower earners. If you're a private renter then the reality tends to be that you *have to move* - economics make it imperative - as the market price rises.
Also most measurements of flow from working-class communities post-war don't (for reasons of complexity, I suspect) factor in w/c population flows caused by the massive "slum clearance"/building of public housing from the '50s to the '70s that saw people shipped to "new towns" into calculations prior to  gentrification, nor the flows between the '70s and '90s of people in London (as elsewhere) "getting on their bike" to look for/find work.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> That's just the market though. Play with fire, you gonna get burnt. Anyone who sets up a business knows it might be worth buttons tomorrow
> .



It's not "just the market", though. "Just the market" would mean "the invisible hand" playing out the most equitably for all parties, whereas what's apparently happening here is influenced by a load of factors *external* to "the market" and "the invisible hand" - factors like (as editor mentioned) massive publicity and what we might (probably inaccurately) term "fashionableness", and the pull of "the next big thing".


----------



## Winot (Jul 6, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Back in the mid 80's there was a pizzeria on the same site (the original one, on the right hand side, not the much later expansion opposite) - the owner/pizzaiolo was a certain Franco, young fellow who eventually moved back to Italy, if memory serves. As today there was room for a few tables inside and out. The pizza was far superior to what Franco Manca offers. You are right about the card shop, and in those days there were no foodie tourist types, just locals lucky enough to have an excellent pizzeria nearby. From (very vague) memory there weren't many eateries, it was still mainly traders selling fruit and veg, fish, meat etc.



Franco's was still going in the mid-90s, wasn't it?  Maybe without Franco himself.  I think I remember it being called that before it changed its name to Eco (there is still an Eco in Clapham I think).  Don't remember the pizzas from that incarnation being better than FM's though.

The same Italian waiter works there today as in the 90s.  Can never remember his name.


----------



## Winot (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes you have. You've projected an "obvious narrative" on to my words. And you were incorrect.



I'll take your word for my being incorrect about your narrative, but it's still not an attack on your character.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Understandable that you want to see businesses you like doing well. But how has the field been un-levelled?
> 
> It is because you see the rents at Pop Brixton as being subsidised by the council?


Pop Brixton has enjoyed more hype, TV coverage and excited publicity than a 'normal' Brixton business could ever hope to achieve or afford. And with Lambeth Council helping to create and hype this place into foodie overdrive, I think I might be a bit pissed off if I was a local restaurant trying to survive in the face of ever-hiking rent costs.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Back in the mid 80's there was a pizzeria on the same site (the original one, on the right hand side, not the much later expansion opposite) - the owner/pizzaiolo was a certain Franco, young fellow who eventually moved back to Italy, if memory serves. As today there was room for a few tables inside and out. The pizza was far superior to what Franco Manca offers. You are right about the card shop, and in those days there were no foodie tourist types, just locals lucky enough to have an excellent pizzeria nearby. From (very vague) memory there weren't many eateries, it was still mainly traders selling fruit and veg, fish, meat etc.


I remember the original pizza place. And the pizza was very nice too.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Pop Brixton has enjoyed more hype, TV coverage and excited publicity than a 'normal' Brixton business could ever hope to achieve or afford. And with Lambeth Council helping to create and hype this place into foodie overdrive, I think I might be a bit pissed off if I was a local restaurant trying to survive in the face of ever-hiking rent costs.


OK, so the basic issue is you feel that Lambeth has given too much support (in the form of hype and publicity) to the new businesses setting up in Pop Brixton.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jul 6, 2015)

It was Francos (before my time), then Eco, then Franco Manca (Franco is missing - after the original owner).  My understanding is that it was the first Eco and the Clapham one opened up after.  I vividly recall sitting next to one of Brixton's well known characters sitting outside Eco tucking into his buffala mozzarella and artisan something or other pizza whilst shouting very loudly on his phone about the terrible new types coming into Brixton - changing its character and gentrifying (although the "g-word" was not so much in vogue at that time but that was the gist) in the early 2000s.


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 6, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Back in the mid 80's there was a pizzeria on the same site (the original one, on the right hand side, not the much later expansion opposite) - the owner/pizzaiolo was a certain Franco, young fellow who eventually moved back to Italy, if memory serves. As today there was room for a few tables inside and out. The pizza was far superior to what Franco Manca offers. You are right about the card shop, and in those days there were no foodie tourist types, just locals lucky enough to have an excellent pizzeria nearby. From (very vague) memory there weren't many eateries, it was still mainly traders selling fruit and veg, fish, meat etc.


from memory he opened a massive restaurant in Islington and sold Franco's to Sami who then did it up and called it Ecco before opening another one in Clapham

oops just seen gaijingirl's post


----------



## Rushy (Jul 6, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> from memory he opened a massive restaurant in Islington and sold Franco's to Sami who then did it up and called it Ecco before opening another one in Clapham
> 
> oops just seen gaijingirl's post


Sami is quite the restaurateur and developer up Clapham way now.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 6, 2015)

the events space aka pop box opens this coming weekend.......
https://twitter.com/PopBoxBrixton


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 6, 2015)

Is there ever a level playing field in the 'making money' business.

All these businesses want to make a profit...and be succesful, right?

Some will, some won't and some might for a time until business drops off (for a multiple of reasons).

It may very well be that there is too much food and not enough customers in Brixton and the money spent is being spread out among more businesses...and some will make it and some will not.

If you open a business and don't expect competition then you shouldn't open a business. There's no law to stop a new burger bar opening next to an old burger bar. There's no law to stop people choosing which burger bar they prefer.

Does the council have some responsibility to ensure every business in the area is not a burger bar (for however many reasons it is not a good Idea to have 50 burger bars)? It probably is.

I have to admit, as much as I might hate to see my fave burger bar fold because my customer base had been redirected, I wouldn't feel a need to be angry at those redirected customers, the new burger bar, or even any particular 'advantages' the new burger bar had negotiated as part of getting their new business seen and heard and promoted.

That's business. It's not nice much of the time, but it is what is is, and people starting up businesses want to make money and part of that is taking business away from 'rivals'.

Landlords are just a business too. They see a way to make cash...they make it.

It's the capitalist machine and it's the biggest machine operating on the planet.

It's sad to see a well liked business fall down...but if you're struggling you either find a way to fix the problems or you quit and do something else.

The people who symbolize the 'poorest ward' in London are as unlikely to use Kaff as much as they are unlikely to use pop. They were likely to use Woolworths though. Now that was a great loss....but it's just business...it aint personal.

I don't like it or excuse, but it is what it is.


----------



## han (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> £4.50 for a whole pizza is excellent value.



Not if they're shit [emoji6]


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

han said:


> Not if they're shit [emoji6]


True. But I really don't think they're shit.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> True. But I really don't think they're shit.


The £4.50 pizza at FM has no cheese on it from what I recall.  It''s more of a glorified garlic bread.

Cheese maketh the pizza IMO.  And the ones with cheese are all £6 plus.  That's not a dig, just an observation.  Though compared to what you pay in Pizza Express, it is still excellent value.

I do like the FM pizzas.  Had a slice of Agile Rabbit pizza yesterday before I hit the cider bar and it was a bit meh.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> The £4.50 pizza at FM has no cheese on it from what I recall.  It''s more of a glorified garlic bread.



The £4.50 one is about as much a pizza as butter between two slices of bread is a sandwich.

I really like FM. I refuse to do the queues though.

Tried Agile once and thought it was dry and greasy.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> The £4.50 pizza at FM has no cheese on it from what I recall.  It''s more of a glorified garlic bread.
> 
> Cheese maketh the pizza IMO.  And the ones with cheese are all £6 plus.  That's not a dig, just an observation.  Though compared to what you pay in Pizza Express, it is still excellent value.
> 
> I do like the FM pizzas.  Had a slice of Agile Rabbit pizza yesterday before I hit the cider bar and it was a bit meh.


They're still excellent value, even if you go for the most 'expensive' option. Not that I eat them any more, mind, but my friends say that they're good and the reviews are generally glowing.

It's a shame so few new businesses are equally affordable.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

Funnily enough I'm in Pop now watching the security guard enforce the no smoking rule.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> They're still excellent value, even if you go for the most 'expensive' option. Not that I eat them any more, mind, but my friends say that they're good and the reviews are generally glowing.
> 
> It's a shame so few new businesses are equally affordable.


They don't try and upsell you loads of shit either which I like.  They've definitely still got it.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2015)

So green!


----------



## gaijingirl (Jul 6, 2015)

blimey... I think I recognise some people in that photo.  RubyToogood - you may too?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2015)

Putting cheese on pizzas is a newfangled thing anyway.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Funnily enough I'm in Pop now watching the security guard enforce the no smoking rule.



You should be happy about that - would piss me off though.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> View attachment 73724 So green!





but..........if people started eating the foliage  would they still be welcome ?


----------



## boohoo (Jul 6, 2015)

Great pizza resides in Streatham.

http://braviragazzipizzeria.co.uk/


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 6, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> blimey... I think I recognise some people in that photo.  RubyToogood - you may too?


<Peers at tiny people on screen>

I don't think so. I think I know who you mean but I don't think it's who you think it is.

Also, I prefer the Agile Rabbit to Franco Manca by far.


----------



## gaijingirl (Jul 6, 2015)

RubyToogood said:


> <Peers at tiny people on screen>
> 
> I don't think so. I think I know who you mean but I don't think it's who you think it is.
> 
> Also, I prefer the Agile Rabbit to Franco Manca by far.



I'm not sure... it appears to be the person I think it is plus his partner who i don't think you've met - but we can chat about this over a swim.  

I cannot compare pizzas having not eaten in either establishment for years.


----------



## han (Jul 6, 2015)

editor said:


> True. But I really don't think they're shit.


I'm afraid I do. 

They're marketing themselves as being authentic but they're not, not at all. 

They're about as authentic as a pot noodle.


----------



## han (Jul 6, 2015)

I must try Agile Rabbit. 

I remember eating pizzas at Eco, they were great!


----------



## han (Jul 6, 2015)

Oops


----------



## T & P (Jul 6, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> You should be happy about that - would piss me off though.


'Pop Brixton security guard rescues baby from the jaws of rabid dog' = 'Heartless Pop Brixton employee seen snatching food from the mouth of much loved family pet'


----------



## Twattor (Jul 6, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It may very well be that there is too much food and not enough customers in Brixton and the money spent is being spread out among more businesses...and some will make it and some will not.
> 
> If you open a business and don't expect competition then you shouldn't open a business. There's no law to stop a new burger bar opening next to an old burger bar. There's no law to stop people choosing which burger bar they prefer.
> 
> ...



Lots of valid points there.

It really depends on whether Brixton has reached saturation point.  I rarely stray into the market east of Atlantic, but was showing someone around last thursday evening and was surprised how empty it was (with exception of the units at the coldharbour end, which have outside space).  We also walked past Pop, which was heaving.  It was a sweltering day, so i imagine people either wanted to be outside or in air conditioned premises, hence the popularity of fish, wings and tings, and Pop.

Two points:

I'd be interested to know how the 75% reductions in whatever cited earlier compare on a like-for-like period last year, what the weather conditions were at the time, and whether their location makes them vulnerable to weather conditions.  

How were takings against last year generally?  Were they still increasing seasonally adjusted up to the point where pop opened?
I wonder where the saturation point is.  It has been suggested that Pop has taken trade from other outlets.  On the rare occasions over the last couple of years that i've been into the bits east of atlantic, I've found it overcrowded and thoroughly unpleasant.  Could it be that others feel the same? If so, might this go some way to explaining the flight to Pop, and might we see a swing back in a few months at which point the other units will benefit. 

Everything is cyclical. Notwithstanding fashion, only fools presist in going somewhere unpleaseant just for the reputation and twitted selfies. Quality will always prevail.

Personally, with the amount of press we've been getting lately i feel that people will continue to flood into the place, and units which are currently quiet may find that things will pick up soon.


----------



## Twattor (Jul 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Is the trader that has seen a 75% drop a cafe/restaurant?



For some 80's nostalgia it's SpamMisery's Urban 75 edition of "Guess Who"

I'll go first.  Does he have a moustache?

Your go.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 6, 2015)

Twattor said:


> For some 80's nostalgia it's SpamMisery's Urban 75 edition of "Guess Who"
> 
> I'll go first.  Does he have a moustache?
> 
> Your go.


He?!
Elementary mistake my dear Twattor.

My go.
Is the trader wearing a hat?


----------



## boohoo (Jul 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> He?!
> Elementary mistake my dear Twattor.
> 
> My go.
> Is the trader wearing a hat?



Hat? Get your eyes tested old man, it's a wig!

My go.

Does the trader offer a take away service?


----------



## Ms T (Jul 7, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Great pizza resides in Streatham.
> 
> http://braviragazzipizzeria.co.uk/



Also Herne Hill.

http://pizzeriapellone.co.uk/


----------



## Ms T (Jul 7, 2015)

han said:


> I must try Agile Rabbit.
> 
> I remember eating pizzas at Eco, they were great!


I used to also like Pangeae, back in the day.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> You should be happy about that


Why? I don't care about people smoking in the open air.


----------



## han (Jul 7, 2015)

Ms T said:


> Also Herne Hill.
> 
> http://pizzeriapellone.co.uk/


Ooh, interesting. Is that new?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Why? I don't care about people smoking in the open air.



Why not?


----------



## Ms T (Jul 7, 2015)

han said:


> Ooh, interesting. Is that new?



Yup.


----------



## Ol Nick (Jul 7, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Putting cheese on pizzas is a newfangled thing anyway.


My observation is that a lot of British people who like pizza would really prefer cheese on toast, but cheese on toast isn't fashionable enough yet so they ensure their pizza is sloppy with melted cheese.

Come on Pop Brixton, time for someone to open a branch of Agile Welsh Rabbit.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 7, 2015)

fromage on ciabbatta (sp)


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 7, 2015)

oeuf with craft bread, with the breach diced into thin sticks.


----------



## han (Jul 7, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> My observation is that a lot of British people who like pizza would really prefer cheese on toast, but cheese on toast isn't fashionable enough yet so they ensure their pizza is sloppy with melted cheese.
> 
> Come on Pop Brixton, time for someone to open a branch of Agile Welsh Rabbit.


To be fair, the pizzas you get in the birthplace of pizzas (Napoli and surrounding areas in the south) ARE sloppy with cheese. The best pizza I've had in my life was in the Italian equivalent of a transport café in Bari where there was a queue of builders out the door. They did 2 types - marguerita and quattro formaggi. Both very sloppy whilst somehow at the same time being crisp, the latter dripping in various cheeses, bursting with flavour. 1 euro. 

Compared to that, Franco Manca has all the flavour and deliciousness of a dry ryvita, yet people are still queuing out the door! [emoji3] 

The closest to that pizza I've ever had is Bravi Ragazzi. They know us very well in there now, as a result! [emoji3]


----------



## Ms T (Jul 7, 2015)

I've had a lot of pizza in Italy, and I always find there to be a lot less topping than the average English pizza. I like Franco Manca pizzas, but Bravi Ragazzi and the new place in HH are both better.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 7, 2015)

The strength of opinions on pizza quality and authenticity is quite astonishing.

Can you still buy six small frozen microwave ones in a bag? I remember thinking they were quite the treat.


----------



## Winot (Jul 7, 2015)

Anyway, back on topic...

Drinks at Pop.  What's good?  I have been twice now, both times on Sunday evening, and a surprising number of the bars have been closed.  Last Sunday we turned up at 9-ish wanting a cocktail, and all that was available was the infamous NZ wine place (which has some great looking bottles but a poor selection by the glass) and a few places selling average bottled beer.  The 'Social Club' bar above the entrance was closed both times.

Incidentally Eckovision (under the arches) was open but completely devoid of punters.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

Winot said:


> Incidentally Eckovision (under the arches) was open but completely devoid of punters.


I've passed it several times now and it looks like The Curse Of The Bar & Grill is in full effect. We considered popping in last night but then remembered it was supposed to be table service. Fuck that.

Oh, and if you're after a good night on a Monday, the Queen's is by far the best bet. It was fantastic last night and had more character and warmth than any trendy container park. Although there's no cocktails.


----------



## han (Jul 7, 2015)

I've never actually bought anything at Pop Brixton, just loitered there one afternoon to see what it was like . Then I saw that video, which put me off. 

But if there's anywhere there that does decent cider, I'd probably give it a try .


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

han said:


> I've never actually bought anything at Pop Brixton, just loitered there one afternoon to see what it was like . Then I saw that video, which put me off.
> 
> But if there's anywhere there that does decent cider, I'd probably give it a try .


I think you'd LOVE the Queen's on a Monday - it's a lot like the old Grosvenor folk sessions (albeit a bit more rowdy).


----------



## Winot (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh, and if you're after a good night on a Monday, the Queen's is by far the best bet. It was fantastic last night and had more character and warmth than any trendy container park. Although there's no cocktails.



Not wedded to cocktails - normally prefer to drink cask ale.  I'm put off going to the Queen's by the earlier racist/sexist incident though - or is it now under new management?


----------



## han (Jul 7, 2015)

Ah yes, I've heard about that. Sounds great! The only pain is, I have to be at work on Tuesdays at 8am so a big night out is not on the cards really.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

Winot said:


> Not wedded to cocktails - normally prefer to drink cask ale.  I'm put off going to the Queen's by the earlier racist/sexist incident though - or is it now under new management?


It's one of the most mixed pubs in Brixton by miles. And one of the best. It reminds me of the best nights at Brady's. Friendly, full of locals and always interesting, Pop Brixton is like a lifeless hollow shell by comparison.


----------



## aussw9 (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Why? I don't care about people smoking in the open air.



What about those that do?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

han said:


> Ah yes, I've heard about that. Sounds great! The only pain is, I have to be at work on Tuesdays at 8am so a big night out is not on the cards really.


Damn! And it gets better the later it goes. Last night there was bass, banjo, oboe, harmonica, a pint glass full of coins (that was Leo from the Severed Limb), guitar (Billy from Drunken Balordi) and a whole load more.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> What about those that do?


They're free to complain and get them instantly evicted by the security guard. I fucking hate smoking as it happens but it doesn't bother me when it's going nowhere near me.


----------



## han (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Damn! And it gets better the later it goes. Last night there was bass, banjo, oboe, harmonica, a pint glass full of coins (that was Leo from the Severed Limb), guitar (Billy from Drunken Balordi) and a whole load more.


Sounds good. One day I'll go and take the Tuesday off....


----------



## Rushy (Jul 7, 2015)

The security guards always seem pretty laid back to me. Whenever I've seen them ask anyone to move to a smoking area they've not appeared to make a big deal about it.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 7, 2015)

han said:


> To be fair, the pizzas you get in the birthplace of pizzas (Napoli and surrounding areas in the south) ARE sloppy with cheese. The best pizza I've had in my life was in the Italian equivalent of a transport café in Bari where there was a queue of builders out the door. They did 2 types - marguerita and quattro formaggi. Both very sloppy whilst somehow at the same time being crisp, the latter dripping in various cheeses, bursting with flavour. 1 euro.
> 
> Compared to that, Franco Manca has all the flavour and deliciousness of a dry ryvita, yet people are still queuing out the door! [emoji3]
> 
> The closest to that pizza I've ever had is Bravi Ragazzi. They know us very well in there now, as a result! [emoji3]



Likewise. By far the best I've had was also in the Italian equivalent of a transport cafe. Had I not been taken there by locals, I wouldn't have given it a second look. It's something to do with the quality of the dough they told me.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 7, 2015)

Winot said:


> Not wedded to cocktails - normally prefer to drink cask ale.  I'm put off going to the Queen's by the earlier racist/sexist incident though - or is it now under new management?


I had understood that the landlord had left shortly after that incident. Is he still there?


----------



## aussw9 (Jul 7, 2015)

Winot said:


> Incidentally Eckovision (under the arches) was open but completely devoid of punters.



Went to Eksovision on Friday night to give it a go.

Probably the worst Sours and Negroni i've had in a long time served up. If youre going to charge top rate for your cocktails, fucken make em good.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I had understood that the landlord had left shortly after that incident. Is he still there?


Yes, he's still there, as are all of his customers.
I tend to judge a pub on the people that go there rather than make an opinion based solely on the landlord.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Went to Eksovision on Friday night to give it a go.
> 
> Probably the worst Sours and Negroni i've had in a long time served up. If youre going to charge top rate for your cocktails, fucken make em good.


Was it table service?


----------



## Winot (Jul 7, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Went to Eksovision on Friday night to give it a go.
> 
> Probably the worst Sours and Negroni i've had in a long time served up. If youre going to charge top rate for your cocktails, fucken make em good.



Not good.  Particularly as a Negroni is one of the easiest cocktails to get right.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, he's still there, as are all of his customers.
> I tend to judge a pub on the people that go there rather than make an opinion based solely on the landlord.


If it's a fun crowd, fair enough I suppose. I don't know all the details but respect to Winot for voting with his custom to make a statement about something which he clearly feels strongly about.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I don't know all the details....


Indeed you don't. But that's OK.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed you don't. But that's OK.


Why do I need to know all the details? It's not me choosing not to go there because they have a fundamental problem with the landlord. I'm simply saying that I respect someone who voted with their feet on principle which they feel strongly about.

Mind you, if there was nothing behind Winot's reservations, I'm sure someone would have backed the landlord up.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 7, 2015)

Anyone know why the sale fell through?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Mind you, if there was nothing behind Winot's reservations, I'm sure someone would have backed the landlord up.


Ah, nice last stir of the pot there but I'm not interested in seeing this thread being dragged miles off topic with a rerun of last year's news.

You stick to your nice cocktail bars and I'll keep on supporting local musicians at the bars of my choice. Problem solved.


----------



## aussw9 (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Was it table service?



Bit of both, there were people at the bar ordering however a waitress was at my table pretty quickly.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Bit of both, there were people at the bar ordering however a waitress was at my table pretty quickly.


Ah, cheers for that. I really don't like waitress service but if I can still grab a pint at the bar I'll give the place a go.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2015)

What's wrong with table service?


----------



## han (Jul 7, 2015)

I thought that landlord was leaving! Heck.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> What's wrong with table service?


I don't like it. I prefer to buy my drinks at the bar.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't like it. I prefer to buy my drinks at the bar.



What about it though? 

What do you prefer about going to the bar that you don't get with table service?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> What about it though?
> 
> What do you prefer about going to the bar that you don't get with table service?


I get to get up and walk about. I get to talk to people at the bar. It's more sociable. I get to wander around the bar rather than stay welded to my seat. I don't like the feeling of someone fetching a beer across to my table when I'm perfectly capable of getting it from the bar myself. And I don't feel obliged to pay a service charge.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Ah, nice last stir of the pot there but I'm not interested in seeing this thread being dragged miles off topic with a rerun of last year's news.
> 
> You stick to your nice cocktail bars and I'll keep on supporting local musicians at the bars of my choice. Problem solved.


My nice cocktail bars?!  Well that certainly put me in my place...


----------



## teuchter (Jul 7, 2015)

I don't like table service either. You find a table and sit down. And wait. Then your order is taken. And you wait. Then at the end when you want to go, you wait to pay all over again. Plus, when you're with a load of people who arrive and leave at different times, there is confusion about who is paying for what and when. This is one area in which those people on the continent have got everything wrong. Table service for a bar is a nonsense.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I don't like table service either. You find a table and sit down. And wait. Then your order is taken. And you wait. Then at the end when you want to go, you wait to pay all over again. Plus, when you're with a load of people who arrive and leave at different times, there is confusion about who is paying for what and when. This is one area in which those people on the continent have got everything wrong. Table service for a bar is a nonsense.


And on that we can absolutely agree.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 7, 2015)

Yep table service sucks. Only time I've found it useful is if you are in a crowded pub for the football.


----------



## elmpp (Jul 7, 2015)

I hate editor so much it makes me scream


----------



## ddraig (Jul 7, 2015)

elmpp said:


> I hate editor so much it makes me scream


that's refreshingly honest (and childish) of you!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> And on that we can absolutely agree.


----------



## gdubz (Jul 7, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, he's still there, as are all of his customers.
> I tend to judge a pub on the people that go there rather than make an opinion based solely on the landlord.


I have to say I'm not a particular fan. I live next to it and I wanted to like it when the new guy took over (well, he was new back then), but he hasn't been the greatest at dealing with noise complaints and it is frustrating when you go somewhere that is empty and you want to use it cos it's your local, but the bar staff studiously ignore you while they act like it's a private club. And the landlord is rude and the beer on hand pump is always off.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 7, 2015)

ddraig said:


> that's refreshingly honest (and childish) of you!


Except for he almost certainly doesn't "hate", nor does he probably actually "Scream" so honest, no, prize dick head, oh yes.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 7, 2015)

Can we have less of these disruptive, off topic, defamatory, cross thread beef, personal attacks and get back to the matter at hand.... one of the barmaids at Pop is proper tidy. As good a reason to visit as any I've seen put forward thus far.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Can we have less of these disruptive, off topic, defamatory, cross thread beef, personal attacks and get back to the matter at hand.... _*one of the barmaids at Pop is proper tidy*_. As good a reason to visit as any I've seen put forward thus far.



And you can fuck off an all you sexist prick


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

gdubz said:


> I have to say I'm not a particular fan. I live next to it and I wanted to like it when the new guy took over (well, he was new back then), but he hasn't been the greatest at dealing with noise complaints and it is frustrating when you go somewhere that is empty and you want to use it cos it's your local, but the bar staff studiously ignore you while they act like it's a private club. And the landlord is rude and the beer on hand pump is always off.


I have to say that doesn't tally with my experience of the place. When was the last time you went?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 7, 2015)

Clearly it was a joke ￼


----------



## ddraig (Jul 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Clearly it was a joke ￼


how was it "funny" ?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Clearly it was a joke ￼


Oh I get it, just bantz eh, fuck me your an edgy one arn't ya, you must make your mother so proud.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 7, 2015)

editor, I thought moderators were supposed to help tone down rude and aggressive behaviour, not validate it with a 'like'?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> editor, I thought moderators were supposed to help tone down rude and aggressive behaviour, not validate it with a 'like'?


That is not in the FAQ, and I'm happy to see anyone posting up sexist drivel getting a well deserved slapdown.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 7, 2015)

Fair enough. I will be taking all your posts at face value from now on


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fair enough. I will be taking all your posts at face value from now on


Stop disrupting this thread. If you have a complaint about the moderating, kindly use the reported post function. Do not tag me and post up in ongoing threads.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fair enough. I will be taking all your posts at face value from now on


and should people do that with your "joke" posts? how was it funny btw?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2015)

ddraig said:


> and should people do that with your "joke" posts? how was it funny btw?


Can you leave it too, please? Thanks.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 7, 2015)

fair enough! 
just hate tossers who make such comments and don't have the guts to back them up or explain and think they should be called on it
but then i'd just ban them and their mates for 'being a dick' on almost a daily basis


----------



## gdubz (Jul 8, 2015)

editor said:


> I have to say that doesn't tally with my experience of the place. When was the last time you went?


Maybe 6 months to a year ago. It was pretty empty and my gf and I actually walked out after a few minutes of waiting at the bar while the 3 staff pratted about and ignored us.


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2015)

gdubz said:


> Maybe 6 months to a year ago. It was pretty empty and my gf and I actually walked out after a few minutes of waiting at the bar while the 3 staff pratted about and ignored us.


I'm not going to defend them - if the staff were bad when you were there, then you've every right to be pissed off, but I have to say they've always been pretty good. It is a chaotic pub though - that's part of its charm for me, although others may not agree.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 8, 2015)

Another review...

http://www.foodepedia.co.uk/restaurant-reviews/2015/jul/Hook_fish_restaurant_Brixton.htm

"It’s packed in Pop, it’s ‘Disposability of Income Island’ with only the security guards hinting at the possibility of attack from the excluded."


----------



## ddraig (Jul 8, 2015)

good line about the public school boys proudly flaunting it rather than hiding it to fit in these days!


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 8, 2015)

I still haven't tried Hook. All the reviews seem very positive


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Another review...
> 
> http://www.foodepedia.co.uk/restaurant-reviews/2015/jul/Hook_fish_restaurant_Brixton.htm
> 
> "It’s packed in Pop, it’s ‘Disposability of Income Island’ with only the security guards hinting at the possibility of attack from the excluded."


Good to see some critical writing abut the changes. 


> Going into Pop Brixton, the ‘village’ of bars and restaurants created from old sea containers though, the difference is evident. So many loud public schools voices and where once posh boys might have grown dreadlocks to fit in, they now proudly flaunt their thick well-nourished manes while the girls show smart watches on matchstick thin wrists.
> 
> It’s packed in Pop, it’s ‘Disposability of Income Island’ with only the security guards hinting at the possibility of attack from the excluded. There’s only one way in or out, it’s a bit like being in a Mad Max fort, so it perhaps would not end well for the defenders.


Blimey: 


> There’s even a pop up wine bar selling only New Zealand wines, so I pick up a bottle to take away for £12 and then at the till discover I have misread £120. Yikes, best put it back.  The interesting thing is that the chap on the till obviously sells a few of these as he seemed unsurprised at someone about to spend that kind of money.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 8, 2015)

The "socio-economic concerns" are fairly casually brushed aside in the remainder of the review though.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 8, 2015)

teuchter said:


> The "socio-economic concerns" are fairly casually brushed aside in the remainder of the review though.



I had the impression the writer was extolling the virtues of gentrification by the end, so the selective quotes above are rather misplaced.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 8, 2015)

well it's sooo lucky you and t and misery are here to put the record straight and quote the bits you like!!
we can't be having things go unchallenged now! oh no!


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 8, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I had the impression the writer was extolling the virtues of gentrification by the end, so the selective quotes above are rather misplaced.


I dont think he was either extolling the virtues or condeming it. Given it was written by http://nickharman.com/about-2/ I very much doubt he gives a flying. Somebody really doesnt like him if you look at the comments at the bottom of the page.


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2015)

teuchter said:


> The "socio-economic concerns" are fairly casually brushed aside in the remainder of the review though.


Of course. It's a foodie blog. Everything comes second to a Lemon and Basil Tempura of black Seabream with Seaweed Salted Chips and Garlic Truffle sauce.


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Somebody really doesnt like him if you look at the comments at the bottom of the page.


Bloody hell!  Good response though


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Of course. It's a foodie blog. Everything comes second to a Lemon and Basil Tempura of black Seabream with Seaweed Salted Chips and Garlic Truffle sauce.



Good old fashioned english food...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 8, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I had the impression the writer was extolling the virtues of gentrification by the end, so the selective quotes above are rather misplaced.



I read it as the writer just accepting gentrification and not being especially bothered by it...despite the opening couple of paragraphs which appear to rally against it.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jul 8, 2015)

Edit: wrong thread!


----------



## Winot (Jul 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Bloody hell!  Good response though



That's hilarious!


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2015)

Even the Brixton Blog has turned against Pop Brixton: 



> In what seems like a gross misjudgement on the part of Lambeth council, POP Brixton, consisting of a ‘village’ of brightly painted shipping containers, was given the use of the council land _for free_ until 2017 when the site will be redeveloped — on the promise that it would provide benefits for the community.
> 
> Originally POP was going to be run by Edible Bus Stop, but after relationships broke down with EBS unhappy with the way things were going, the council forged ahead and brought in creepy sounding company “The Collective” (again, appropriating socialist rhetoric) to co-run the project.  “Tenants have been selected based not only on the quality of their offer, but also to maximise benefit to the local community” – says the press release. Seriously? A visit proves that it is nothing less than a theme park of fashionable food, from pinxos to ramen noodles, with zero visible benefit to Brixton residents – other than a few new flavours for those who can afford it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rushy (Jul 8, 2015)

Was that FOI responded to which was going to shed light on the CTA / EBS fallout?


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2015)

£120 for a bottle of wine from a "community" venture. Fuck me.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Was that FOI responded to which was going to shed light on the CTA / EBS fallout?



It was submitted to Lambeth Council from EBS. It was refused because of the time it would take to respond.


----------



## Winot (Jul 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Even the Brixton Blog has turned against Pop Brixton:



Is there any connection between London Union (quoted in the article) and Pop Brixton?


----------



## Rushy (Jul 8, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> It was submitted to Lambeth Council from EBS. It was refused because of the time it would take to respond.


Blimey. What did they ask?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Blimey. What did they ask?



Asking to see Council documents relating to the time period when the "change in management style" took place.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 8, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Asking to see Council documents relating to the time period when the "change in management style" took place.


Any idea how long is too long?


----------



## Maharani (Jul 8, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Great pizza resides in Streatham.
> 
> http://braviragazzipizzeria.co.uk/


They do a very nice pizza in Tulse Hill's very own local, newly opened Italian, Casa Degli:

http://lacasadegli.co.uk/#/Home/

You may have to book as it's getting very busy. Service is really good too.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Any idea how long is too long?



Local authorities can refuse to service an FoI if it takes 18 hours or more to find the information.

Some "change in the style of management..."


----------



## Maharani (Jul 8, 2015)

editor said:


> I think you'd LOVE the Queen's on a Monday - it's a lot like the old Grosvenor folk sessions (albeit a bit more rowdy).


who runs Queen's Head now? Used to be the Railway boys for a short spell...


----------



## Rushy (Jul 8, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Local authorities can refuse to service an FoI if it takes 18 hours or more to find the information.
> 
> Some "change in the style of management..."


It seems a bit of a vague and subjective question. Could that be why?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 8, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It seems a bit of a vague and subjective question. Could that be why?



I haven't seen the exact wording of the question.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 8, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> I haven't seen the exact wording of the question.


Ah sorry. Thought you were quoting.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 8, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Another review...
> 
> http://www.foodepedia.co.uk/restaurant-reviews/2015/jul/Hook_fish_restaurant_Brixton.htm
> 
> "It’s packed in Pop, it’s ‘Disposability of Income Island’ with only the security guards hinting at the possibility of attack from the excluded."




I'm not much of a fish fan but that does sound tempting, especially if it's as affordable as described. Think I'll be popping down there with the GF, who seems to eat nothing else! Quite a well balanced article I'd say, good find, thanks.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 8, 2015)

ddraig said:


> well it's sooo lucky you and t and misery are here to put the record straight and quote the bits you like!!
> we can't be having things go unchallenged now! oh no!


I'm curious to know which bits you think I "like" and why.


----------



## Maharani (Jul 8, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I'm not much of a fish fan but that does sound tempting, especially if it's as affordable as described. Think I'll be popping down there with the GF, who seems to eat nothing else! Quite a well balanced article I'd say, good find, thanks.


If I want fish and chips I would prefer to go to my trad chippie.  I don't want newfangled smoked, pulled, salted (just some examples of newfangled, trendy food) fish and chips. I haven't even ever stepped foot into Olley's in HH, it's just never appealed.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 8, 2015)

Maharani said:


> If I want fish and chips I would prefer to go to my trad chippie.  I don't want newfangled smoked, pulled, salted (just some examples of newfangled, trendy food) fish and chips. I haven't even ever stepped foot into Olley's in HH, it's just never appealed.



That's great, every now and then I'll have something like that too at home. If I'm out and about though and able to treat myself I'll fancy something a bit different, maybe something that I've never had before that I couldn't have at home, or be bothered to make myself. Variety is the spice of life and all that!


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 8, 2015)

Maharani said:


> If I want fish and chips I would prefer to go to my trad chippie.  I don't want newfangled smoked, pulled, salted (just some examples of newfangled, trendy food) fish and chips. I haven't even ever stepped foot into Olley's in HH, it's just never appealed.


Fish has been smoked and salted for millennia. Nowhere I've ever seen is fish pulled.


----------



## Maharani (Jul 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Fish has been smoked and salted for millennia. Nowhere I've ever seen is fish pulled.


Not when it's fish and chips it ain't. 

I've pulled a few fish in my time.


----------



## Maharani (Jul 8, 2015)

deadringer said:


> That's great, every now and then I'll have something like that too at home. If I'm out and about though and able to treat myself I'll fancy something a bit different, maybe something that I've never had before that I couldn't have at home, or be bothered to make myself. Variety is the spice of life and all that!


My life's spicy enough:
 
I put this on pretty much everything.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 8, 2015)

Winot said:


> Is there any connection between London Union (quoted in the article) and Pop Brixton?



There is no direct business connection. She is showing the similarities between London Union and the other food markets around London. 

The connection is in the title of the piece. 



> Who Are They Feeding? Food Markets Are Not The Saviour of London’s Poor



I cannot really add anything to this article to make it better. She sums it all up very well. 

Particularly like her little anecdotes:



> Middle class twenty-somethings I knew (my peers, let’s be honest) were bought flats in the area by wealthy parents, now that Clapham had become unaffordable and “boring”. I overheard conversations on the Victoria line, where Brixton converts enthusiastically informed hesitant friends that the area was “OK now”, before listing the market’s best restaurants and naming other (white, wealthy) friends who had recently moved there, as proof.
> 
> Meanwhile, Brixton was becoming a lot less hospitable for other people, namely, many of its existing residents.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 8, 2015)

Variety is indeed the spice of life.  Went to Pop Brixton this evening for a nose around though I saw nothing new.  Suspect I'm getting old.  It didn't feel warm or welcoming.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 8, 2015)

Maharani said:


> If I want fish and chips I would prefer to go to my trad chippie.  I don't want newfangled smoked, pulled, salted (just some examples of newfangled, trendy food) fish and chips. I haven't even ever stepped foot into Olley's in HH, it's just never appealed.


Olley's used to be pretty good, used to take my folks there.  Swordfish fillets and chips was awesome, but apparently no longer sustainable so they don't sell it any more.  Expensive mind.  

Haven't had decent fish and chips locally for a long time so am open to suggestions.  I'm told the Knights Hill fish bar is great but I've not tried it yet.  Ace Plaice was a bit of a disappointment.


----------



## Winot (Jul 8, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> There is no direct business connection. She is showing the similarities between London Union and the other food markets around London.
> 
> The connection is in the title of the piece.



So has anyone claimed that Pop Brixton solves the problems of London's poor?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

Winot said:


> So has anyone claimed that Pop Brixton solves the problems of London's poor?



When I read a article I look at what the writer means in the context of the whole piece. 

I was going to explain more but at this time of night do not feel like having to deal with nit picking. 

Oh well here I go:

The straightforward answer is that in so many words yes the Council/ PB have claimed this in the sense that it will provide jobs and training for local youth. 

I find the continual nit picking on the Brixton section really getting on my nerves. 

Its clear what she is writing about.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> When I read a article I look at what the writer means in the context of the whole piece.
> 
> I was going to explain more but at this time of night do not feel like having to deal with nit picking.
> 
> ...



It's a decent piece, well written. 

Although it does make questionable assumptions and takes dubious leaps.

Interesting that her nostalgia is for a Brixton of just three or four years ago, notably the BYO days of B Village. I certainly miss those!


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its clear what she is writing about.


Indeed it is.


----------



## elmpp (Jul 9, 2015)

editor said:


> £120 for a bottle of wine from a "community" venture. Fuck me.


This time you're looking at 4 grams of methedrone. Quite pricey.


----------



## Maharani (Jul 9, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Olley's used to be pretty good, used to take my folks there.  Swordfish fillets and chips was awesome, but apparently no longer sustainable so they don't sell it any more.  Expensive mind.
> 
> Haven't had decent fish and chips locally for a long time so am open to suggestions.  I'm told the Knights Hill fish bar is great but I've not tried it yet.  Ace Plaice was a bit of a disappointment.


You've never tried Kennedy's in Streatham? It's the best I've had in these here parts.

Is the Knights Hill one next to Barclays on Norwood Road?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It's a decent piece, well written.
> 
> Although it does make questionable assumptions and takes dubious leaps.
> 
> Interesting that her nostalgia is for a Brixton of just three or four years ago, notably the BYO days of B Village. I certainly miss those!



The initial days of Brixton Village were great and it still felt like an inclusive place....

I would flyer there twice a week. Shops would put up posters, I could 'bill poster' and almost all the business owners were into supporting each other and others outside in the wider Brixton space...

..then the security arrived...posters were ripped down...they actually confiscated my flyers once...it was all over then...felt like a private party after that...so I hardly step a foot in there anymore.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> When I read a article I look at what the writer means in the context of the whole piece.
> 
> I was going to explain more but at this time of night do not feel like having to deal with nit picking.
> 
> ...


Gramsci. You have to let people disagree. Shutting down arguments and opinions by dismissing it as nit picking is not usually like you. 

It is a lazy article. Making big lazy statements (the title being one of them). As one of the comments says, it makes lots of connections which don't stand up to the most basic scrutiny. It makes assertions which are simply inaccurate. But most damning for me, is that the author drops in too many comments about their own worthiness. They could only live here because of mates rates. It felt like the real deal they experienced in Berlin *during their gap year* in 2009. They could only dine out when it was BYO. Really? Oh please. Everyone can make excuses. It's embarrassingly self conscious and generously points the finger of blame at their peers whilst somehow absolving themselves.

I've heard it a million times. The person who doesn't think they are part of the national tend because they managed to pick up a rare gem of a cheap flat, or only went to the market in the early days. It's a badge piece. They may as well have little lapel pins saying "I'm so real" "I care" "It's all *your* fault" "Make mine a dirty burger and hand cut chips. I brought my own authentic Red Stripe."


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Gramsci. You have to let people disagree. Shutting down arguments and opinions by dismissing it as nit picking is not usually like you.
> 
> It is a lazy article. Making big lazy statements (the title being one of them).



I did answer his question in the end.

Whether its a "lazy" article is a different question. Its not imo. And its not the question that was asked.

The reason I am say I am fed up with the nit picking thats going on is that I am sick of it.

I am having to jump posts to get back to the subject. Its not me that closes arguments down.

Off site I have people starting to tell me its putting them off posting here. Its not what they come on Urban for. Having to justify every single phrase and word. Argue about dictionary definitions.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It is a lazy article. Making big lazy statements (the title being one of them). As one of the comments says, it makes lots of connections which don't stand up to the most basic scrutiny. It makes assertions which are simply inaccurate. But most damning for me, is that the author drops in too many comments about their own worthiness. They could only live here because of mates rates. It felt like the real deal they experienced in Berlin *during their gap year* in 2009. They could only dine out when it was BYO. Really? Oh please. Everyone can make excuses. It's embarrassingly self conscious and generously points the finger of blame at their peers whilst somehow absolving themselves.



Precisely.
The author seems desperate to distance herself from any hint of her being a gentrifier herself. She is eager to point out a “turning point”, which naturally came _after_ she arrived....


----------



## gaijingirl (Jul 9, 2015)

Maharani said:


> You've never tried Kennedy's in Streatham? It's the best I've had in these here parts.
> 
> Is the Knights Hill one next to Barclays on Norwood Road?



No... Knight's hill is up opposite the auction house (just up from Portico).  Imo it is much better than Kennedy's at a fraction of the price.  It's not fancy like Kennedy's though - you won't find squid/salad or those insulated bags for your chips - it really is a very old school chipper - the kind you only really see at the seaside these days - pickled eggs/mushy peas etc.  But £2.60 gets an OAPs/small portion F&C that feed both my kids with chips left over for me....  a bit more money and it's a feast for the whole family.  If you go on a Friday evening be prepared to queue though.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I did answer his question in the end.
> 
> Whether its a "lazy" article is a different question. Its not imo.
> 
> ...


Off site people say all sorts of things to me about why they won't get involved too. Largely about off message views being aggressively shut down. There's not much point airing it here. U75 doesn't suit everyone.

But Winot does post here. Regularly. His comment was brief but not every post needs to be an essay. His comment expressed a view that was not extreme or add hominem or rude or off topic. You don't have to agree with him but no one is forcing you to argue every word.  Let's avoid dismissal of all off message posting as nit picking. It's a conversation and people are expressing differing opinions.


----------



## Winot (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The straightforward answer is that in so many words yes the Council/ PB have claimed this in the sense that it will provide jobs and training for local youth.



Thank you for answering.

As I understand it, there are two aspects to Pop - the food/bar part which is up and running and the workspaces for local businesses which is coming later.  "Food Markets are the saviour of London's poor" is a ridiculous claim and her criticism of the rhetoric around London Union seems justified (if they said what she says they said).  But to give the impression that the same thing has been said in relation to Pop Brixton is disingenuous at best and misleading at worst.  It's a classic straw man argument. 

I am prepared to wait and see what happens in relation to the second phase of Pop Brixton.  If it doesn't achieve what Lambeth hopes to achieve then criticism will be valid.



Gramsci said:


> I find the continual nit picking on the Brixton section really getting on my nerves.



You say nit picking I say valid disagreement.  I am not trying to shut down debate - I am trying to establish what people's positions are and whether they are justified.

The boards should not be simply an echo chamber for the views of like-minded people.  Your posts are usually polite and informative and I have learnt from them and sometimes modified my views.  But if I disagree I will say so, and you should respect my right to express a different view to yours.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2015)

I find the brixton bog article neither particularly bad nor particularly good. It doesn't tell me anything new though. It is just another piece saying the same stuff that dozens before it have said.

What I'd like is an article that actually looked at Pop Brixton in depth. That laid the facts and figures out clearly. That spoke to all the traders, found out about what all their backgrounds were, what brought them to Pop, who they employed, what their staff were paid. Looked at the non-food units and what is in them or is going to be in them. Compared it in detail to outwardly similar schemes in other places. Investigated what actually happened with the Edible Bus Stop thing. Put the various criticisms to the council and the people running the place and scrutinised their responses.

Of course that would be a lot of work, and probably more work than most people writing for free would be willing to take on.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 9, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> No... Knight's hill is up opposite the auction house (just up from Portico).  Imo it is much better than Kennedy's at a fraction of the price.  It's not fancy like Kennedy's though - you won't find squid/salad or those insulated bags for your chips - it really is a very old school chipper - the kind you only really see at the seaside these days - pickled eggs/mushy peas etc.  But £2.60 gets an OAPs/small portion F&C that feed both my kids with chips left over for me....  a bit more money and it's a feast for the whole family.  If you go on a Friday evening be prepared to queue though.


knights hill fish bar does the best fish and chips in london. that one in herne is a disgraceful rip off. 14 quid, for fish and chips isn it?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 9, 2015)

how can people write this with a straight face and then spend the rest of hte article complaing about gentrification:

"Unsurprisingly, just after the financial crash, applications for spaces flooded in. It was the eve of the tidal wave of specialist coffee / burger / posh chicken restaurants. We drank cheap wine and hung out in the semi-open space of the covered market. It felt like the Berlin I had known in my year abroad in 2006 and not like the corporate London of endless Starbucks and Zizzi chains. We invited friends from other parts of town to come and partake of the new fun in Brixton."


----------



## Rushy (Jul 9, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> how can people write this with a straight face and then spend the rest of hte article complaing about gentrification:
> 
> "Unsurprisingly, just after the financial crash, applications for spaces flooded in. It was the eve of the tidal wave of specialist coffee / burger / posh chicken restaurants. We drank cheap wine and hung out in the semi-open space of the covered market. It felt like the Berlin I had known in my year abroad in 2006 and not like the corporate London of endless Starbucks and Zizzi chains. We invited friends from other parts of town to come and partake of the new fun in Brixton."


That last line. How on earth does the author not "get it"?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 9, 2015)

seems like we all have different "turning points". is this article a parody/wind up?

"The initial buzz gained momentum, aided by mouth-watering Instagram images – including those posted by me. More places popped up, queues formed, the BYOB policies ended, TimeOut made a video tour of the market, and “Champagne and Fromage” moved in – a restaurant that unwittingly became the poster boy for Brixton’s gentrification. There was a “turning point”, when I recognised some boys from the private school next to my comprehensive in rural Suffolk in the market one night, drunk on Red Stripe and loudly singing a grime song in a badly copied south London accent into a microphone. It made me cringe."


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 9, 2015)

she is cringing at herself, then.

anyway. not to put the boot in. i'll leave it as that is one of the worst pieces i have read on the subject. almost makes me want to roll my strides up and grow a beard!


----------



## Maharani (Jul 9, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> No... Knight's hill is up opposite the auction house (just up from Portico).  Imo it is much better than Kennedy's at a fraction of the price.  It's not fancy like Kennedy's though - you won't find squid/salad or those insulated bags for your chips - it really is a very old school chipper - the kind you only really see at the seaside these days - pickled eggs/mushy peas etc.  But £2.60 gets an OAPs/small portion F&C that feed both my kids with chips left over for me....  a bit more money and it's a feast for the whole family.  If you go on a Friday evening be prepared to queue though.


Well I never...


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed it is.


yeah but it's like a fat bloke writing an article slagging of the obese.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 9, 2015)

i have worked out a rule when reading about gentrification. it's probably safe to assume that the person is part of the process as well. Most of the sensible ones admit it in the first few paragraphs.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2015)

elmpp said:


> This time you're looking at 4 grams of methedrone. Quite pricey.


And on that note, you're out of here a fortnight.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The initial days of Brixton Village were great and it still felt like an inclusive place....
> 
> I would flyer there twice a week. Shops would put up posters, I could 'bill poster' and almost all the business owners were into supporting each other and others outside in the wider Brixton space...
> 
> ..then the security arrived...posters were ripped down...they actually confiscated my flyers once...it was all over then...felt like a private party after that...so I hardly step a foot in there anymore.


That's pretty much it. At the start, loads of locals were given a chance to try out their ideas, there was plenty of DIY fun to be had and it felt like it was "our" space.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The reason I am say I am fed up with the nit picking thats going on is that I am sick of it.
> 
> I am having to jump posts to get back to the subject. Its not me that closes arguments down.
> 
> Off site I have people starting to tell me its putting them off posting here. Its not what they come on Urban for. Having to justify every single phrase and word. Argue about dictionary definitions.


I know exactly how you feel and I've had plenty of people say the same thing.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 9, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> how can people write this with a straight face and then spend the rest of hte article complaing about gentrification:
> 
> It felt like the Berlin I had known in my year abroad in 2006 and not like the corporate London of endless Starbucks and Zizzi chains. We invited friends from other parts of town to come and partake of the new fun in Brixton



new Pop anthem.............


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I find the brixton bog article neither particularly bad nor particularly good. It doesn't tell me anything new though. It is just another piece saying the same stuff that dozens before it have said.
> 
> What I'd like is an article that actually looked at Pop Brixton in depth. That laid the facts and figures out clearly. That spoke to all the traders, found out about what all their backgrounds were, what brought them to Pop, who they employed, what their staff were paid. Looked at the non-food units and what is in them or is going to be in them. Compared it in detail to outwardly similar schemes in other places. Investigated what actually happened with the Edible Bus Stop thing. Put the various criticisms to the council and the people running the place and scrutinised their responses.
> 
> Of course that would be a lot of work, and probably more work than most people writing for free would be willing to take on.



As an opinion piece I rather enjoyed it. The Headline of COMMENT clearly tells you that it is an opinion piece, and not an objective piece of reporting.

I agree that an in-depth piece about Pop is needed. But like you say, this would involve a lot of research and unpaid time investment.

The EBS story is one that deserves to be told from the limited insight that I have. But it is still very sensitive for those involved. There is a concern that going public with the suggestion as to what actually happened behind closed doors may limit the future plans of EBS elsewhere around Brixton. This needs to be respected.

It does grate though to hear the Council continually get praised for setting up Pop. Somewhere along the line a decision was made high up about what direction the site would take. Grow or Pop? This does need explaining. I'm just not sure how right now...


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 9, 2015)

It did read a bit like 'middle class white person bemoans the arrival of middle class white people' essentially because she discovered Brixton before it was cool.

Other than that it was quite readable; but as tricky and others say, there is no substance to it, just opinion :shrugs:

Maybe that was the point. Maybe it was satire


----------



## Rushy (Jul 9, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> As an opinion piece I rather enjoyed it. The Headline of COMMENT clearly tells you that it is an opinion piece, and not an objective piece of reporting.
> 
> I agree that an in-depth piece about Pop is needed. But like you say, this would involve a lot of research and unpaid time investment.
> 
> ...


I'm curious to understand what happened too. Having spoken to people from both parties, albeit casually and very briefly, I came away with the impression that there was a big personal fall out, compounded by EBS not being to come up with anything like the levels of corporate sponsorship they'd budgeted for.

I can buy into the argument that observers who did not read the original Grow proposal were seduced by the attractive and exciting description and did not pick up on the drier self funding, business facilitating, profit generating nature of the original proposal.

EBS can't argue that. They were party to that proposal. They were promising substantial profit shares from corporate sponsorship, business generation and exclusive venue hire or event management from the very first submission. Onlookers might not have seen that and perceive that there had been a massive change in direction, fair enough. But EBS?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 9, 2015)

Double post


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I'm curious to understand what happened too. Having spoken to people from both parties, albeit casually and very briefly, I came away with the impression that there was a big personal fall out, compounded by EBS not being to come up with anything like the levels of corporate sponsorship they'd budgeted for.
> 
> I can buy into the argument that observers who did not read the original Grow proposal were seduced by the attractive and exciting description and did not pick up on the drier self funding, business facilitating, profit generating nature of the original proposal.
> 
> EBS can't argue that. They were party to that proposal. They were promising substantial profit shares from corporate sponsorship, business generation and exclusive venue hire or event management from the very first submission. Onlookers might not have seen that and perceive that there had been a massive change in direction, fair enough. But EBS?


It was never, ever described as a "business park for the 21st century" in the original proposals. 

The original ethos was described thus: 


> The strong emphasis on greening our space and encouraging biodiversity sits right in the heart of our project and is integral to what sets our scheme apart. [--]


And: 


> Consisting of Lambeth-based organisations, Carl Turner Architects, The Edible Bus Stop, Canteen and Engineers Structure Workshop, the winning Grow: Brixton bid aims to, “bring together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing.





> The aim is to build a self-sufficient community, organised and run by designers, builders and gardeners and managed through the local residents and small businesses. [--]



I still think we've been cheated.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The reason I am say I am fed up with the nit picking thats going on is that I am sick of it.
> 
> I am having to jump posts to get back to the subject. Its not me that closes arguments down.
> 
> Off site I have people starting to tell me its putting them off posting here. Its not what they come on Urban for. Having to justify every single phrase and word. Argue about dictionary definitions.



It is a very specific form of point-scoring hyper-pedantry that this medium promotes, particularly on emotive topics.  We're all guilty of it to an extent.  Though some probably far more than others.

There's also a whole load of cognitive biases going on.  But that is human nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases


----------



## CH1 (Jul 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It did read a bit like 'middle class white person bemoans the arrival of middle class white people' essentially because she discovered Brixton before it was cool.
> 
> Other than that it was quite readable; but as tricky and others say, there is no substance to it, just opinion :shrugs:
> 
> Maybe that was the point. Maybe it was satire


More like these people who discover exotic holiday destinations before they get "spoilt"


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 9, 2015)

discobastard said:


> It is a very specific form of point-scoring hyper-pedantry that this medium promotes, particularly on emotive topics.  We're all guilty of it to an extent.  Though some probably far more than others.
> 
> There's also a whole load of cognitive biases going on.  But that is human nature.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases



as bob dylan wrote, "you're right from your side, and i am right from mine."


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 9, 2015)

CH1 said:


> More like these people who discover exotic holiday destinations before they get "spoilt"



Ooooh, good analogy


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2015)

editor said:


> It was never, ever described as a "business park for the 21st century" in the original proposals.
> 
> The original ethos was described thus:
> 
> ...


I can't find the original source of the quotes you quote. Are they buried in the PDF which is linked to but I am getting an "access denied" message?


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I can't find the original source of the quotes you quote. Are they buried in the PDF which is linked to but I am getting an "access denied" message?


They seem to have a habit of 'disappearing' original documents concerning this venture. Those quotes were certainly in the original press releases though.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 9, 2015)

The 'Business Park for the 21st Century' came via Jacko.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Fish has been smoked and salted for millennia. Nowhere I've ever seen is fish pulled.



You've never been on an Atlantic trawler 10 days into a 20-day fishing expedition, have you?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 9, 2015)

Event space opens this weekend....

https://www.facebook.com/events/407808062755343/


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Event space opens this weekend....
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/events/407808062755343/


I've got so much disposable income I want to SHOP UNTIL I POP!


----------



## Dan U (Jul 9, 2015)

I'd go just for Congo natty!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2015)

I will be going along at 10am just for the free yoga and pilates courses.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 9, 2015)

They've got someone called Stalin on the bill :thumbs :


----------



## CH1 (Jul 9, 2015)

Belushi said:


> They've got someone called Stalin on the bill :thumbs :


Yes and Pop can't spell - it is Cecilia Stalin - from Sweden it seems
https://ccstalin.bandcamp.com/


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

Winot said:


> Thank you for answering.
> 
> 
> I am prepared to wait and see what happens in relation to the second phase of Pop Brixton.  If it doesn't achieve what Lambeth hopes to achieve then criticism will be valid.
> ...



The meanwhile use has already failed to live up to the original conception.

So imo its already a failure.

As for the boards. The Brixton section has increasingly become more hostile one for me to post on. Its not me that needs to show more respect. I am getting fed up with having to watch every point I make.

This is a left of centre website not the Evening Standard. My acquaintance, who I told to check out this site, after seeing it told me she didn’t know how I put up with posting here.

I have shared the Blog article on my other social networks and its got a lot of positive interest. People get the point.

And as for an echo chamber. This site is important to me as at least certain sections of it reaffirm my faith in humanity in an increasingly narrow minded world. So actually being partly an echo chamber is important.

Nothing unusual about that. Just listened to radio programme about newspapers. Press here is divided between different interest groups. Are Guardian readers or Telegraph readers listening to an echo chamber? Yes it provides a shared sense of values and identity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The meanwhile use has already failed to live up to the original conception.
> 
> So imo its already a failure.
> 
> ...



Your problem, my friend, is that you're polite, and see all contributions as equally worthy of consideration.
I, on the other hand, learn the lessons of my interlocution with people on this board, and will happily cunt off the prigs, the time-wasters, the hard-of-thinking and the self-frottaging greedheads who pop up on the Brixton forum, even if it earns me a warning or two.
You're a good person, so the bullshit spouted by certain posters affects you. That's a good thing - it means you've not become like the posters who are hostile to your perspective. Me, I'm not a good person. I'm as hostile to their perspective, as they are to yours, and although I try to give fair points a fair hearing, sometimes the points are covered with so much negativity (digs at editor , misrepresentations of what is said etc) that my attitude becomes "fuck 'em".


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## leanderman (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The meanwhile use has already failed to live up to the original conception.
> 
> So imo its already a failure.
> 
> ...



Interesting point of view.

The Blog article is interesting too - but full of holes.

Twitter is an echo chamber, like the newspapers. 

I've had to start following a few rightwingers to give my timeline 'balance'.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Off site I have people starting to tell me its putting them off posting here. Its not what they come on Urban for. Having to justify every single phrase and word. Argue about dictionary definitions.





editor said:


> I know exactly how you feel and I've had plenty of people say the same thing.



But editor that's exactly your debating style. You forensically justify things you have said when you are called on it. So you set the tone a lot of the time.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 9, 2015)

I think the opposition to the article is quite bizarre. It clearly doesn't put the author forward as an "authentic" Brixton newcomer, a "good gentrifier" before the bad lot came along, at all—it explicitly does the opposite, starting from the third paragraph: "Brixton is a textbook example and I was part of it." It describes a young person with a whole load of illusions about their life who grows to realise that they are actually part of the problem, that they were part of the group who made all this bullshit possible. It felt great at the time but it's now apparent it was part of a process.


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## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> But editor that's exactly your debating style. You forensically justify things you have said when you are called on it. So you set the tone a lot of the time.



Thats not the reason that people have told me.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 9, 2015)

Can someone edit the below bullets to correct my understanding because I can't find the original statement of requirements and haven't been involved from the beginning:

Owner seeks proposals highlighting the need to involve the youth of Lambeth, but states it will require a commercial element in order to be viable
Preferred bidder chosen by owner
Preferred bidder proposal breaks down for reasons neither party wishes to disclose
Owner chooses new bid without re-tendering as, I understand, they are at liberty to do
Commercial element sets up first with non-commercial element to follow
I know there's lots of other subjective stuff to go in there, but I just want to clarify the facts. If the above is correct, I'm interested to know how they intend to service the (community) youth during the day and the (commercial) adults during the evening - it's a bit like a nursery which turns into a brothel at night. But, if the above is correct, I don't understand why people take issue (except for the broad brush gentrification issue, of which Pop is a symptom not a cause)


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## Mr Retro (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thats not the reason that people have told me.


However the tone exists. It may not be what you have been told but the editors style of debate sets a chippy belligerent editorial style. People follow and react to that in different ways. This is totally evident at the moment.


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## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think the opposition to the article is quite bizarre. It clearly doesn't put the author forward as an "authentic" Brixton newcomer, a "good gentrifier" before the bad lot came along, at all—it explicitly does the opposite, starting from the third paragraph: "Brixton is a textbook example and I was part of it." It describes a young person with a whole load of illusions about their life who grows to realise that they are actually part of the problem, that they were part of the group who made all this bullshit possible. It felt great at the time but it's now apparent it was part of a process.



I would give her more of a break than that.

What I take from the article is summed up here:


> The proliferation of food markets and of gastro-entrepreneurship in London has taken place alongside the rise of food banks and the numbers of those going hungry. More food markets does clearly _not_ equal fewer people going hungry.



I was reading the ES today and it had a two page article on the rise of single themed restaurants / eateries. Could not get past first paragraph. I started to see London as this dystopia where every shop is now a pop up themed eaterie. 

I am starting to get really pissed off with the disparity in London between the haves and have nots. I see it every day.


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## teuchter (Jul 9, 2015)

Gramsci at least you are honest enough to say that an echo chamber is what you want.

If urban75 presented itself as such, and that understanding was a condition of participating, then I'd respect your wish to treat it like that.

But it doesn't.

My saying that is not hostility to you or even your opinions. 

It is often the case here that people will automatically interpret the questioning of something (like the article recently discussed) as a rejection of everything it says. In my opinion because they are looking for conflict. But questioning something is just a way of testing it to see how reliable it really is.

Some of my interactions on here are in part rehearsals for conversations that I have in real life where my point of view is rather more closely aligned with the u75 baseline worldview than it is with those I'm talking to. Sometimes they are asking the questions I've asked on here, and sometimes I have a good reply to them as a result.


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## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Can someone edit the below bullets to correct my understanding because I can't find the original statement of requirements and haven't been involved from the beginning:
> 
> Owner seeks proposals highlighting the need to involve the youth of Lambeth, but states it will require a commercial element in order to be viable
> Preferred bidder chosen by owner
> ...



I suggest you start at page one of thread. There are still original documents on there. 

The fact is that the original concept Grow Brixton that won competition and obtained planning permission was dropped. 

The Pop Brixton is nothing like the original concept and the final build of the place looks nothing like what was promised.


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## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Gramsci at least you are honest enough to say that an echo chamber is what you want.
> 
> If urban75 presented itself as such, and that understanding was a condition of participating, then I'd respect your wish to treat it like that.
> 
> ...



The programme about newspapers was interesting as now news media is dealing with going on internet they were more explicit about the composition of the readership.

The Guardian, Mail and Telegraph as far as I know do not define who should read their papers. But was accepted by all on the radio programme ( who were from different papers) that they have readers who define themselves partly through what they read.

So my point is that U75 does not have to present itself as that. Its obvious to me when I first looked at it that was left of centre. You only have to look at the politics boards to see that. But it becomes that through the posters.

I said partly an echo chamber as whilst I for example look at the politics boards that does not I do not learn something from them.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 9, 2015)

I've tried that but it's several thousand posts with most of it being irrelevant arguing. I'll do another search, but most of the links are BB opinion pieces, or links like editor posted above which sub link to growbrixton etc but don't contain original documents 

But, I don't think the current incarnation not matching the original proposal is an issue. In fact, I don't see why this is an issue at all as, as far as I can tell, the owner was never chained to the idea that it must provide anything specific - they just wanted to fill the space for a few years whilst they decided what to do with it.


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## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I've tried that but it's several thousand posts with most of it being irrelevant arguing. I'll do another search, but most of the links are BB opinion pieces, or links like editor posted above which sub link to growbrixton etc but don't contain original documents
> 
> But, I don't think the current incarnation not matching the original proposal is an issue. In fact, I don't see why this is an issue at all as, as far as I can tell, the owner was never chained to the idea that it must provide anything specific - they just wanted to fill the space for a few years whilst they decided what to do with it.


Can't you see that the difference is actually very significant?  It's like the council agreeing to turn a brownfield site into a community Park with allotments, for example, getting the community on board with that idea and then changing their minds and developing a shopping centre instead. 

It absolutely does matter.


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## Gramsci (Jul 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I
> 
> But, I don't think the current incarnation not matching the original proposal is an issue. In fact, I don't see why this is an issue at all as, as far as I can tell, the owner was never chained to the idea that it must provide anything specific - they just wanted to fill the space for a few years whilst they decided what to do with it.



The owner the Council made a big thing about asking/ consulting the community on the use of the site.


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## leanderman (Jul 9, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Can't you see that the difference is actually very significant?  It's like the council agreeing to turn a brownfield site into a community Park with allotments, for example, getting the community on board with that idea and then changing their minds and developing a shopping centre instead.
> 
> It absolutely does matter.



The difference has not been proved to my satisfaction. It is not very significant. 

It has been exaggerated.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Owner seeks proposals highlighting the need to involve the youth of Lambeth, but states it will require a commercial element in order to be viable
> Preferred bidder chosen by owner
> Preferred bidder proposal breaks down for reasons neither party wishes to disclose
> Owner chooses new bid without re-tendering as, I understand, they are at liberty to do
> Commercial element sets up first with non-commercial element to follow



"Preferred bidder proposal breaks down for reasons neither party wishes to disclose" - One party does want to disclose this, but is concerned that it will damage their opportunities to carry out further projects in the borough.

What is also missing from this timeline is the momentum that the original planning application carried with support from local residents. The comments praised the growing element that was to be introduced to their community.

The planning application has since been modified to allow for extra business space. This is all above board and totally legitimate. But I'm not sure if the original application would have been passed if residents had known how the site would eventually turn out and had added a critical voice.


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## leanderman (Jul 9, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think the opposition to the article is quite bizarre. It clearly doesn't put the author forward as an "authentic" Brixton newcomer, a "good gentrifier" before the bad lot came along, at all—it explicitly does the opposite, starting from the third paragraph: "Brixton is a textbook example and I was part of it." It describes a young person with a whole load of illusions about their life who grows to realise that they are actually part of the problem, that they were part of the group who made all this bullshit possible. It felt great at the time but it's now apparent it was part of a process.



It's not bizarre to question contentious statements.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 9, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Can't you see that the difference is actually very significant?  It's like the council agreeing to turn a brownfield site into a community Park with allotments, for example, getting the community on board with that idea and then changing their minds and developing a shopping centre instead.
> 
> It absolutely does matter.



I get some people might want an allotment, but no I genuinely don't get this as an issue. [EDIT] I guess I understand people's disappointment, but not the scale of the anger visible in this thread.



Gramsci said:


> The owner the Council made a big thing about asking/ consulting the community on the use of the site.



Ok, but they listened to the opinion, tried to make it work, but it didn't. Why not? We aren't being told by either side. I understand EBS want to protect themselves for possible future opportunities, but it doesn't sound like an authoritarian stamp down to me.



Tricky Skills said:


> "Preferred bidder proposal breaks down for reasons neither party wishes to disclose" - One party does want to disclose this, but is concerned that it will damage their opportunities to carry out further projects in the borough.
> 
> What is also missing from this timeline is the momentum that the original planning application carried with support from local residents. The comments praised the growing element that was to be introduced to their community.
> 
> The planning application has since been modified to allow for extra business space. This is all above board and totally legitimate. But I'm not sure if the original application would have been passed if residents had known how the site would eventually turn out and had added a critical voice.



I understand some are not happy, but as you say it's above board and legitimate. I might feel differently if I wanted the original proposal, but the 'weight' of support is just that; the support. It never takes account of those who are indifferent and content for it to morph into something else. Personally, if the council had said "hey, we're gonna build a new shopping centre on the old ice rink site, waddya think?"  I would have said, "great, crack on"


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## leanderman (Jul 9, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> "Preferred bidder proposal breaks down for reasons neither party wishes to disclose" - One party does want to disclose this, but is concerned that it will damage their opportunities to carry out further projects in the borough.
> 
> What is also missing from this timeline is the momentum that the original planning application carried with support from local residents. The comments praised the growing element that was to be introduced to their community.
> 
> The planning application has since been modified to allow for extra business space. This is all above board and totally legitimate. But I'm not sure if the original application would have been passed if residents had known how the site would eventually turn out and had added a critical voice.



The current project is not that far from the original application. 

A bit less 'grow' and 'community' perhaps, but that might be a good thing.

When some business stuff gets going in there, some of it on low rents, that could  genuinely grow the community.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The current project is not that far from the original application.
> 
> A bit less 'grow' and 'community' perhaps, but that might be a good thing.
> 
> When some business stuff gets going in there, some of it on low rents, that could  genuinely grow the community.



I don't think the original proposal is even relevant. It wasn't viable. I want to see the original statement of requirements. That's the only thing you can hold the owner to account for. Not the fact the first proposal didn't work out in the end.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I don't think the original proposal is even relevant. It wasn't viable. I want to see the original statement of requirements. That's the only thing you can hold the owner to account for. Not the fact the first proposal didn't work out in the end.



I strongly suspect the original application was not viable, without amendment, as has now happened.


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## Rushy (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I strongly suspect the original application was not viable, without amendment, as has now happened.


The original proposal appears to have relied on EBS to bring in a lot of corporate sponsorship, which they say in the proposal they are experienced at doing. From what I understand, this did not work out. The shortfall appears to have been met by introducing additional units.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The original proposal appears to have relied on EBS to bring in a lot of corporate sponsorship, which they say in the proposal they are experienced at doing. From what I understand, this did not work out. The shortfall appears to have been met by introducing additional units.



So, the fact we're not seeing the utopian community proposal achieving realisation, is EBS's inability to raise corporate sponsorship?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 10, 2015)

I note the original proposal had chain operators Canteen involved too... what happened to that?


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## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> However the tone exists. It may not be what you have been told but the editors style of debate sets a chippy belligerent editorial style. People follow and react to that in different ways. This is totally evident at the moment.


Please don't for one second presume that _your opinion_ is in any way representative of everyone else's, even if you can find a handful who agree with you here.

The fact that you've singled me out speaks volumes of your intent here too. Everyone has opinions, but no one else was naming names - yet you've just made it personal.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I've tried that but it's several thousand posts with most of it being irrelevant arguing. I'll do another search, but most of the links are BB opinion pieces, or links like editor posted above which sub link to growbrixton etc but don't contain original documents


The original documents have in many cases been removed, but the quotes are 100% accurate. You don't have to take my word for that of course, but you should know that if I had made stuff up, certain individuals would have been very quick to have pointed that fact out. They didn't.


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## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> . But I'm not sure if the original application would have been passed if residents had known how the site would eventually turn out and had added a critical voice.


Brixton Buzz certainly would not have supported it.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I note the original proposal had chain operators Canteen involved too... what happened to that?


Perhaps they were too busy "preaching casual all day dining," whatever the fuck that means.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The original proposal appears to have relied on EBS to bring in a lot of corporate sponsorship, which they say in the proposal they are experienced at doing. From what I understand, this did not work out. The shortfall appears to have been met by introducing additional units.


What are you basing your 'understanding' on here? Have you any links to documents that  support this assertion?


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## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> So, the fact we're not seeing the utopian community proposal achieving realisation, is EBS's inability to raise corporate sponsorship?


Why are you describing it as "utopian"?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I strongly suspect the original application was not viable, without amendment, as has now happened.


What are you basing that suspicion on, please?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I don't think the original proposal is even relevant. It wasn't viable.


Could you produce your evidence for this assertion please? How do you know it wasn't viable? Why did Lambeth award it the bid, if so? What documents have you looked at? Links please.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The programme about newspapers was interesting as now news media is dealing with going on internet they were more explicit about the composition of the readership.
> 
> The Guardian, Mail and Telegraph as far as I know do not define who should read their papers. But was accepted by all on the radio programme ( who were from different papers) that they have readers who define themselves partly through what they read.
> 
> ...


So anyone who is not left of centre should go away?  

If so that needs to be made clear when joining.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Please don't for one second presume that _your opinion_ is in any way representative of everyone else's, even if you can find a handful who agree with you here.
> 
> The fact that you've singled me out speaks volumes of your intent here too. Everyone has opinions, but no one else was naming names - yet you've just made it personal.


I'm trying to demonstrate how your editorial lead sets the tone for the boards, especially in the Brixton form. Above makes my point neatly. If you want to dismiss it I couldn't care less but it IS true weather you like it or not. 

I'm really going to leave it for a few weeks now because at the end of the day I don't really give a fuck but the boards are important to some lovely decent people and I genuinely don't want to cause disruption.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> What are you basing that suspicion on, please?



Everything I have read here. Plus the clinching fact that it did not work out.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Everything I have read here. Plus the clinching fact that it did not work out.



But we don't know why it didn't work out. It's difficult to make a judgement without the facts being made available.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> So, the fact we're not seeing the utopian community proposal achieving realisation, is EBS's inability to raise corporate sponsorship?


Not really, no. I'm saying that the original Grow proposal by CTA and EBS already relied on income streams from commercial units including food and beverage concessions on the ground floor, mid price units on first floor and low price units on the upper floor. Other income streams were ticketed events (£5-25) and corporate partnerships and sponsorship, which the proposal says they are very experienced at securing "without becoming logo city". I understand the corporate sponsorship was proving hard to secure in the short time frame (the figure of £15,000 was mentioned in conversation, just 1% of the build cost) and project costs increased so the number of units was increased to make it up. 

My main point about EBS is that this was already a commercial venture from the first proposal whilst they were involved. To pretend it was otherwise (and it is not EBS pretending this in so far as I'm aware) is a big nonsense.

From page 36 of their original presentation:


> *Open book accounting:*
> There will profit share between partners.
> Substantial profit share with Lambeth Council.
> Profitability increased year on year from year 2.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 10, 2015)

It's also made very clear on Lambeths website (from the very early days before the EBS proposal was accepted I seem to remember), that there would need to be a profit making aspect for it to work


----------



## Rushy (Jul 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The meanwhile use has already failed to live up to the original conception.
> 
> So imo its already a failure.
> 
> ...


This is not a newspaper with carefully curated contributors. Surely the Brixton forum is simply the sum of the individual posters who choose to post here?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> This is not a newspaper with carefully curated contributors. Surely the Brixton forum is simply the sum of the individual posters who choose to post here?



As I said in previous post:

The Guardian, Mail and Telegraph as far as I know do not define who should read their papers. But was accepted by all on the radio programme ( who were from different papers) that they have readers who define themselves partly through what they read.

So my point is that U75 does not have to present itself as that. Its obvious to me when I first looked at it that was left of centre. You only have to look at the politics boards to see that. But it becomes that through the posters.

My point was that the Brixton section of U75 is for me becoming less hospitable place to be compared with other sections of the site.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I get some people might want an allotment, but no I genuinely don't get this as an issue. [EDIT] I guess I understand people's disappointment, but not the scale of the anger visible in this thread.
> 
> . Personally, if the council had said "hey, we're gonna build a new shopping centre on the old ice rink site, waddya think?"  I would have said, "great, crack on"



So you are not bothered in the end what happens on the site. 

Most people I know in Brixton who do not post here are upset at what happened. Do not see Pop has any relation to what was originally proposed. 

Its not "utopian" to want to have a say and have something that does not depend on market forces.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As I said in previous post:
> 
> The Guardian, Mail and Telegraph as far as I know do not define who should read their papers. But was accepted by all on the radio programme ( who were from different papers) that they have readers who define themselves partly through what they read.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about the politics boards. I just use the Brixton boards as it is local. It's the sum of its active individual posters and I like it for that. I wouldn't want your views suppressed, or anyone else's.


----------



## Winot (Jul 10, 2015)

Maybe we should have a sub-forum where anyone can say what they want but it can't be challenged.


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## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Everything I have read here. Plus the clinching fact that it did not work out.


So no actual evidence then?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It's also made very clear on Lambeths website (from the very early days before the EBS proposal was accepted I seem to remember), that there would need to be a profit making aspect for it to work


I don't recall you describing the venture as 'utopian' then. What changed?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> But we don't know why it didn't work out. It's difficult to make a judgement without the facts being made available.


And that's something that's worth repeating again and again. We don't know the facts, although Lambeth should be explaining them.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> But we don't know why it didn't work out. It's difficult to make a judgement without the facts being made available.



Yep. And that cuts both ways: it's difficult to judge that the original application would have worked, without the facts being available.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm trying to demonstrate how your editorial lead sets the tone for the boards, especially in the Brixton form.


What 'editorial lead'? Your opinions carry as much weight as mine, and I'm certainly nowhere near the most aggressive, nitpicking or condescending here.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yep. And that cuts both ways: it's difficult to judge that the original application would have worked, without the facts being available.


Lambeth had all the  facts at their disposal when they awarded the venture the the winning bid.


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## teuchter (Jul 10, 2015)

Thread motto - "we don't know the facts".


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> My point was that the Brixton section of U75 is for me becoming less hospitable place to be compared with other sections of the site.


Sadly, it's been that way for a long time and many people have commented on that. The pattern is totally predictable too.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> So no actual evidence then?



The chief evidence is that it did not work out as planned. That is significant. And one of the few things we can be sure of.

The rest of the evidence is in this thread.

The latest part being the allegation that EBS could not deliver on sponsorship.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Thread motto - "we don't know the facts".


Despite that, some people seem very sure of them.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The latest part being the allegation that EBS could not deliver on sponsorship.


And that allegation is based on...?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Lambeth had all the  facts at their disposal when they awarded the venture the the winning bid.



We have gone through this already. Lambeth is quite capable of getting things wrong.

They went on proposals, claims, not facts.

The proof is in the pudding.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It's also made very clear on Lambeths website (from the very early days before the EBS proposal was accepted I seem to remember), that there would need to be a profit making aspect for it to work


Indeed there was. And that was presumably took fully into account when Lambeth selected the winning bid. You still haven't explained when and why it suddenly became a "utopian community proposal". Could you do that now please?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> And that allegation is based on...?



Rushy said that was his understanding.

As I say, I base my suspicion that it was not viable on the fact it turned out not to be viable


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> We have gone through this already. Lambeth is quite capable of getting things wrong.
> 
> They went on proposals, claims, not facts.
> 
> The proof is in the pudding.


The 'pudding' is that EBS got kicked off for unexplained reasons. Everything else is speculation and conjecture.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Rushy said that was his understanding.


An 'understanding' he is unable to substantiate thus far. 


leanderman said:


> As I say, I base my suspicion that it was not viable on the fact it turned out not to be viable


So you know for a _fact_ that the original project was subsequently found unviable? 

I'm sure that's possible, so where's the documentation for that?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> The 'pudding' is that EBS got kicked off for unexplained reasons. Everything else is speculation and conjecture.



Nope. The pudding is that the project is off the ground and starting to deliver on some of its promises.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> An 'understanding' he is unable to substantiate thus far.
> So you know for a _fact_ that the original project was subsequently found unviable?
> 
> I'm sure that's possible, so where's the documentation for that?



The documentation is the project itself.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The documentation is the project itself.


And where was it declared to be unviable?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> And where was it declared to be unviable?



I think it was not viable based on the fact it did not happen. ETA: And on the descriptions of the original application here


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 10, 2015)

anyone considered that there might be people who live in brixton that are not "left of center?" infact, i know/have known plenty of people on the right, working class people too, who live/d in brixton - are they not welcome here?

if so, and it's not a problem if so, then the forum really should be clear about that "Brixton forum - for left of centre people only".


----------



## Rushy (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> The 'pudding' is that EBS got kicked off for unexplained reasons. Everything else is speculation and conjecture.


This also appears to be conjecture. The original story (page 2 of this thread) was that they "walked away" due to a "difference in the style of management". Can you provide a link proving they were "kicked off"?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I think it was not viable based on the fact it did not happen.


That could have happened for lots of reasons. There could have been a clash of personalities, a general falling out, budget changes, management shift, change in priorities - all sorts of reasons. On what basis are you claiming that your *guess* is the correct one?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> This also appears to be conjecture. The original story (page 2 of this thread) was that they "walked away" due to a "difference in the style of management". Can you provide a link proving they were "kicked off"?


That's what I heard privately, but I'll be more than happy to withdraw that for now. No problem at all.

How about your claims? Still sticking by them, despite the complete absence of supporting evidence?


----------



## Rushy (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> That's what I heard privately.



Oh. I see.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> That could have happened for lots of reasons. There could have been a clash of personalities, a general falling out, budget changes, management shift, change in priorities - all sorts of reasons. On what basis are you claiming that your *guess* is the correct one?



It doesn't really matter which reason(s) is right. The bottom line is it did not happen.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> This also appears to be conjecture. The original story (page 2 of this thread) was that they "walked away" due to a "difference in the style of management".


This statement contradicts your claims.

You said, "The original proposal appears to have relied on EBS to bring in a lot of corporate sponsorship, which they say in the proposal they are experienced at doing. From what I understand, this did not work out. The shortfall appears to have been met by introducing additional unit."

Could you cite your sources for EBS's supposed failure to bring in a required level of corporate sponsorship, please? Where are you getting this from?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It doesn't really matter which reason(s) is right. The bottom line is it did not happen.


I'd say it's _very important_ that residents get to know exactly why they ended up with something that was markedly different to what was proposed.

Or do you think the council should be free to alter plans, switch partners, extend schemes, bring in outside property developers etc with zero accountability to the public?


----------



## Rushy (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> This statement contradicts your claims.
> 
> You said, "The original proposal appears to have relied on EBS to bring in a lot of corporate sponsorship, which they say in the proposal they are experienced at doing. From what I understand, this did not work out. The shortfall appears to have been met by introducing additional unit."



Sorry, but how exactly are my two posts contradictory?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> I'd say it's _very important_ that residents get to know exactly why they ended up with something that was markedly different to what was proposed.
> 
> Or do you think the council should be free to alter plans, switch partners, extend schemes, bring in outside property developers etc with zero accountability to the public?



I don't think it is significantly different.

And - without EBS/CTA  input - we won't know what happened.

I haven't investigated the public accountability issue.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I don't think it is significantly different.


You don't, but you surely accept that quite a few people do? I would never have given my support for a "21st Century business park." That was never mentioned n the original proposals.

I know many, many locals who aren't happy with what we need up with.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Could you produce your evidence for this assertion please? How do you know it wasn't viable? Why did Lambeth award it the bid, if so? What documents have you looked at? Links please.



It wasn't viable evidenced by it not going ahead.



editor said:


> I don't recall you describing the venture as 'utopian' then. What changed?



Nothing. I didn't write down lots of things I thought back then either.



editor said:


> Indeed there was. And that was presumably took fully into account when Lambeth selected the winning bid. You still haven't explained when and why it suddenly became a "utopian community proposal". Could you do that now please?



Alright, keep your pants on. Some of us have day jobs and can't respond to things immediately. I called it utopian because that's how I see the initial bid ie. "aiming for a state in which everything is perfect". I don't see why calling it utopian is an issue?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> You don't, but you surely accept that quite a few people do? I would never have given my support for a "21st Century business park." That was never mentioned n the original proposals.
> 
> I know many, many locals who aren't happy with what we need up with.



I don't much like the place.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Alright, keep your pants on. Some of us have day jobs and can't respond to things immediately. I called it utopian because that's how I see the initial bid ie. "aiming for a state in which everything is perfect". I don't see why calling it utopian is an issue?


No one has ever claimed it was a utopian vision. Except you.


----------



## Winot (Jul 10, 2015)

What we have here is a focus on a number of elements of the original proposal which some posters really liked (fair enough) but an ignoring of other aspects (such as those set out in Rushy's post here).

That imaginary vision is then being compared with the reality of what has ensued (even though, as has been pointed out a number of times, the project is not yet complete).

I'd say 'utopian' is a pretty good word.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

Winot said:


> What we have here is a focus on a number of elements of the original proposal which some posters really liked (fair enough) but an ignoring of other aspects (such as those set out in Rushy's post here).
> 
> That imaginary vision is then being compared with the reality of what has ensued (even though, as has been pointed out a number of times, the project is not yet complete).
> I'd say 'utopian' is a pretty good word.


So every proposed development is 'utopian' then. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 10, 2015)

the problem I have with the issue of viability is in my view the same one as with the planning application and end result of Brixton Square (and various other large scale building projects), to get through planning, various things are included/promised and soon after its through suddenly the figures don't stack up and the social aspect has to give way as the profit margins are too small.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 10, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> the problem I have with the issue of viability is in my view the same one as with the planning application and end result of Brixton Square (and various other large scale building projects), to get through planning, various things are included/promised and soon after its through suddenly the figures don't stack up and the social aspect has to give way as the profit margins are too small.




Then people's anger and disappointment should be directed at the council, not a New Zealand wine seller or the people going there for a bite to eat.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Then people's anger and disappointment should be directed at the council, not a New Zealand wine seller or the people going there for a bite to eat.


Is anyone actually angry at her?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> No one has ever claimed it was a utopian vision. Except you.



I said I called it utopian. I never claimed anyone else did. I think this is distracting from the discussion; the nit-picking gramsci was talking about.....


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 10, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Then people's anger and disappointment should be directed at the council, not a New Zealand wine seller or the people going there for a bite to eat.


and therein lies the problem, while the council hide behind a wall of Orwellian p.r. speak, the wine seller/customers are all we can see of this grand new vision - a corporate vision of our new edgy utopia as long as you have the money


----------



## teuchter (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Is anyone actually angry at her?


When you make comments about her not being interested in the local community and just being here to make money for herself, it can come across that way, a little bit.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 10, 2015)

blame the game (and the council), not the players, next.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Is anyone actually angry at her?



What would you call your opinion of her and her business?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> When you make comments about her not being interested in the local community and just being here to make money for herself, it can come across that way, a little bit.


That was accurately reflecting the facts as I saw them. She didn't express any interest in the wider community in her crowdfunding bid but merely her desire to "create a retail space for people to meet, enjoy & buy exclusively fine NZ wine. To engage people in the story and passion of NZ wine"

And if she's not here to make money (and there's nothing wrong with that if you're a businesswoman), what is she doing? Charity work? Community outreach for wine aficionados?

But am I "angry" at her? Don't be ridiculous.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2015)

deadringer said:


> What would you call your opinion of her and her business?


I'm pretty much totally disinterested in the exclusively fine NZ wine business and I have no particular opinion of her because I've never met her, although she seems pleasant enough. I hope that answers your question in full.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 10, 2015)

If anyone is obsessed with NZ wine, Waterloo Wine Co in Lant St SE1 (133 will take you there) has a decent selection. £120 will get you a case not a bottle.


----------



## T & P (Jul 10, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> If anyone is obsessed with NZ wine, Waterloo Wine Co in Lant St SE1 (133 will take you there) has a decent selection. £120 will get you a case not a bottle.


With wine is a little bit more complex than that though. You can buy French wine for just a few Pounds in many shops but of a quality so dismal that one would feel like apologising to the rat population of the London sewers for pouring it down the drain. £120 is of course a lot of money for a bottle of wine, though by no means the most expensive out there, and on the very occasion where I've had the pleasure of sampling a three-figure priced wine, I concluded it was worth the money. Unfortunately I don't have that kind of dosh to spend on a bottle.


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 10, 2015)

apparently during the war George Melly was so pissed off with the landed gentry swanning around in his club flashing money around that he steamed the labels of the most expensive wine and swapped it with the cheapest, nobody noticed but he enjoyed the fact that the real jazz aficionados were getting the best wine at the expense of the toffs


----------



## teuchter (Jul 10, 2015)

As with all placebos, a higher price tag will tend to make wine taste better.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 10, 2015)

deadringer said:


> What would you call your opinion of her and her business?



Cynical.


----------



## T & P (Jul 10, 2015)

More so than the other for-profit ventures at Pop?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 10, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> the problem I have with the issue of viability is in my view the same one as with the planning application and end result of Brixton Square (and various other large scale building projects), to get through planning, various things are included/promised and soon after its through suddenly the figures don't stack up and the social aspect has to give way as the profit margins are too small.



Reading through these posts ( and I have trouble keeping up as just got back) I keep remembering the Cressingham Gardens "Question Time" last year. One of the academics at the event said that all the regeneration projects he had studied had started out with lots of promises. Which meant that joe public supported them then as they progressed this was all watered down. 

This leads to justifiable cynicism on part of general public.

My position on the Meanwhile use of this site is clear. If the first winning project fell apart the runner up should have got the site.

What has happened is a fudge. Its unsatisfactory to say the least. 

Residents were given the impression that there was a competitiom for the use of the site. That they had a say

If the first one failed then runner up should have got it. What has happened is an unsatisfatory scheme cobbled together with support of Council which bears little resemblance to original scheme.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2015)

The first few pages of this thread make interesting reading: people initially encouraged by the idea, then expressing doubts once it quickly turned out that the original idea had become something else. Presciently so. But then it wasn't really in doubt I suppose.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 10, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> blame the game (and the council), not the players, next.



I do blame the Council for this. 

Cllr Jack Hopkins is a new Labour tosser who spouts shite.

I think the Labour Party is a good idea. 

Unfortunately in Lambeth its run by people like Bennett and Hopkins. Wankers. 

Here is Blairite New Labour Hopkins on the "Pop" ie not Grow Brixton. Using the best Demos / IPPR gobbledegook




> With land from the Council, entrepreneurialism from POP Brixton and the support and oversight from community partners we are creating a community business park for the 21st century. It will add energy, create footfall and provide opportunities to locals needing the space and supportive business environment to thrive.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Reading through these posts ( and I have trouble keeping up as just got back) I keep remembering the Cressingham Gardens "Question Time" last year. One of the academics at the event said that all the regeneration projects he had studied had started out with lots of promises. Which meant that joe public supported them then as they progressed this was all watered down.
> 
> This leads to justifiable cynicism on part of general public.
> 
> ...



I think I agree with most of what you say - but it's not quite how lb Lambeth tendering works in practice. Am I wrong to think the original two lead partners won & then it fell apart during the due diligence process? That left Lambeth with second choice bidders - who were second for a reason, or to attempt to rejig choice #1 delivery at an as yet unsatisfactory compromise, bearing in mind the community based stuff was timetabled to happen after the hospititality led start up stuff and should happen shortly.

Still looked like a quite diverse 20 something version of mad max this afternoon - popes road was still bustling,


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> I think I agree with most of what you say - but it's not quite how lb Lambeth tendering works in practice. Am I wrong to think the original two lead partners won & then it fell apart during the due diligence process? That left Lambeth with second choice bidders - who were second for a reason, or to attempt to rejig choice #1 delivery at an as yet unsatisfactory compromise, bearing in mind the community based stuff was timetabled to happen after the hospititality led start up stuff and should happen shortly.
> 
> Still looked like a quite diverse 20 something version of mad max this afternoon - popes road was still bustling,



I have had a few beers.

But my understanding of meeting which I attended when Cllr Hopkins was asked what happened was this. He said that there had been some kind of breakdown of relations between EBS and the Turner. Which Council had tried to mediate to no avail. 

So from what Hopkins said it was clash of views of how to go forward that happened. He did not suggest it was due to financial viability. 

The rejigging imo ended up with scheme that was nothing like original winners.

From what I saw of original scheme was that community and commercial stuff would start at same time.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> I think I agree with most of what you say - but it's not quite how lb Lambeth tendering works in practice. Am I wrong to think the original two lead partners won & then it fell apart during the due diligence process?



Just realised you mean the proper tendering process.

This is where the "Cooperative Council" comes into it.

The "Meanwhile" use of site did not come under the tendering process. More informal. Like Brixton Green getting "Meanwhile" use of Number 6 Somerleyton road.

Where the official tendering process did come in when the move of the Impact Hub from Town Hall to Pop Brixton. Which required a waiver of the tendering process to give it directly to Pop Brixton.

One problem with the Coop Council is the informal nature of it.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 11, 2015)

Pop packed 'em in last night. It was rammed. 

I was DJing upstairs at Market House and the whole place was very quiet (also a result of weather I'm sure)...

We didn't get busy until after 11.30pm...but was packed until 3am.

I suspect lots of people moved over to us after pop shut. Market House have flyering Pop with offers to get people to come over after hours.

I think most summer weekends will be like this...

Let's see how it plays out through the cold months...


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 11, 2015)

So Pop is working for the community then?


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> So Pop is working for the community then?


More for the tourists, I'd imagine. 

Not entirely convinced about Nanker's analysis either as there's loads of reasons why venues can be quiet earlier on. We've had nights like that at the Albert way before Pop opened up.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 11, 2015)

Last 6 - 8 months at Market House have been packed at 9pm on a Friday...which was a real sea change from the previous 2.5 years where the crowd would come and go until 11ish when it tended to fill up...

Last 2 months have returned to quiet early 9 - 11.30 then busy after...

Sonething has driven that change...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 11, 2015)

Last 6 - 8 months at Market House have been packed at 9pm on a Friday...which was a real sea change from the previous 2.5 years where the crowd would come and go until 11ish when it tended to fill up...

Last 2 months have returned to quiet early 9 - 11.30 then busy after...

Sonething has driven that change...


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 11, 2015)

editor said:


> More for the tourists, I'd imagine.
> 
> Not entirely convinced about Nanker's analysis either as there's loads of reasons why venues can be quiet earlier on. We've had nights like that at the Albert way before Pop opened up.



But editor, the Brixton you know thrives on tourism! The Victoria line brings you right into the heart, and from the early days of the Fridge and the Academy, to all the bars and clubs that have proliferated ever since, Brixton is a magnet for folk who want a good night out. Pop is just the latest manifestation of that process.


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> But editor, the Brixton you know thrives on tourism!


Not on the scale of recent times. Nowhere near.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 11, 2015)

I was there till closing last night. Took some friends from Ireland and Scotland who loved it. Performance area was working well - keen crowd. Beef salad from Viet Box was seriously tasty. Bloody loud though. Could totally understand neighbours objecting to those levels until midnight.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jul 13, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I was there till closing last night. Took some friends from Ireland and Scotland who loved it. Performance area was working well - keen crowd.



I popped in yesterday for the first time. I understand it's not quite what was planned. It reminds me of the South Bank food market and as such agree with the criticisms voiced on this thread and Brixton Blog. Still, it does have a ?free?  performance area, they were showing the tennis while I was there and would be keen to see music. Everything was ££££ but I guess there's nothing to stop you have a drink outside before coming in.

Website's a bit shaky , anyone know what the programme is for this w/e. I'm sure it will do well on Brixton Splash day.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 13, 2015)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Website's a bit shaky , anyone know what the programme is for this w/e. I'm sure it will do well on Brixton Splash day.


Fascinated that there was a section "HEALTH" [coming soon]
Maybe given the sound levels they might be doing hearing tests. Hope so - would bypass the six month wait for Guys/St Thomas's.


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Last 2 months have returned to quiet early 9 - 11.30 then busy after...
> 
> Sonething has driven that change...


Probably the listing I gave your night in Lambeth Weekender


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2015)

For anyone who is interested: 


> John&Pearl are hosting their first pop up at the ‘New Boxpark’ in
> Brixton, on the 15th July. The space will be open for a week, and will
> play host to a range of street food, live music and pop-ups from
> independent retailers.
> ...


----------



## Winot (Jul 13, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> My observation is that a lot of British people who like pizza would really prefer cheese on toast, but cheese on toast isn't fashionable enough yet so they ensure their pizza is sloppy with melted cheese.
> 
> Come on Pop Brixton, time for someone to open a branch of Agile Welsh Rabbit.



Too late. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-cafe-to-open-its-doors-in-soho-10128016.html


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2015)

Winot said:


> Too late.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-cafe-to-open-its-doors-in-soho-10128016.html


Just 11 years after NYC's (now closed) cheesy venture. 







http://www.urban75.org/photos/newyork/ny416.html


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## SpamMisery (Jul 13, 2015)

Those sandwiches sound good. It doesn't sound too different from a normal sandwich shop with its
slow-roasted lamb shoulder with mustard-dressed greens sandwich and Swiss cheese or rare roast beef and red Leicester sandwich.

Only difference is the cheese is grilled.


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Those sandwiches sound good. It doesn't sound too different from a normal sandwich shop with its
> slow-roasted lamb shoulder with mustard-dressed greens sandwich and Swiss cheese or rare roast beef and red Leicester sandwich.
> 
> Only difference is the cheese is grilled.


And you're paying a fiver.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 13, 2015)

Worth it for good quality beef or lamb


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Worth it for good quality beef or lamb


If you can afford a fiver for a sandwich, I'm sure it is.


----------



## T & P (Jul 13, 2015)

For many people a sandwich is a meal, in particular if it is a well-filled sandwich, as opposed to a supermarket job (which might have a cheaper price tag but be in real terms piss-poor value for money).

So provided the sandwich is of sufficiently generous filling and size, I'd say it will indeed be very much affordable to most peeps.


----------



## trabuquera (Jul 13, 2015)

You can easily spend nearly a fiver for a takeaway sandwich from "mainstream" retailers (M&S, Pret, EAT, even Boots) if you pick their socalled 'premium' options. compared to that, fiver for a large meat sandwich on designer bread in a sit-down environment isn't the worst rip-off imaginable. Still, the idea of a toastie-only café for some reason makes me want to kill everyone involved in the face (and I loooove toasties.)


----------



## deadringer (Jul 13, 2015)

Most of the central London sandwich bars I've ever been to your looking at the best part of a fiver for a large filled bap. So compared to these it sounds like a good deal to me. A tasty lunch for a fiver filling me up for an afternoons work and meaning I don't have to faff about the previous evening making my own sub standard sandwich seems acceptable to me.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 13, 2015)

Looks like they come with a hot drink too. A toasty and a hot chocolate will be nice on a wintery afternoon


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 13, 2015)

In general I love the trend for restaurants/trucks/stalls/pop ups etc doing just a single or a handful of things. Quality in the main benefits from the approach and you know what you're going to get.


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Most of the central London sandwich bars I've ever been to your looking at the best part of a fiver for a large filled bap.


Since when is a sandwich a  "large filled bap"?

Not sure where you eat, but I certainly don't pay a fiver for a sandwich in central London sandwich bars.


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Looks like they come with a hot drink too.


Nope.


----------



## Ol Nick (Jul 13, 2015)

Winot said:


> Too late.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-cafe-to-open-its-doors-in-soho-10128016.html


Oh


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 13, 2015)

editor said:


> Nope.



By "nope" you mean yes


----------



## Belushi (Jul 13, 2015)

That looks decent value, I like a good toastie :thumbs :


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 13, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> By "nope" you mean yes



"terms and conditions apply"

e2a


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

editor said:


> Since when is a sandwich a  "large filled bap"?
> 
> Not sure where you eat, but I certainly don't pay a fiver for a sandwich in central London sandwich bars.


They run from £3.50 to £5. 

I'm not sure the issue (if there even is one) is where you choose to eat editor. But it *seems* like you have a problem with somebody charging £5 for a slow roasted lamb and cheese toastie. Am I understanding that right?

ETA: Do we really need to get into a hyper pedantic argument about the naming of sandwiches/baps? The sandwich is a fairly broad church...

Also IIRC you have to charge VAT on hot food but not cold.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 13, 2015)

A sandwich and a hot drink for £4 sounds alright. The cheapest coffee I've found in the morning in Tulse Hill is £1.40 for a latte. Throw in a toastie cheese sandwich for £2.60 and I'd say that wasn't a bad price.

(although doesn't compete with the £1.85 toastie in the suburbs)


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

boohoo said:


> A sandwich and a hot drink for £4 sounds alright. The cheapest coffee I've found in the morning in Tulse Hill is £1.40 for a latte. Throw in a toastie cheese sandwich for £2.60 and I'd say that wasn't a bad price.
> 
> (although doesn't compete with the £1.85 toastie in the suburbs)


Pretty good considering it's in Soho.

ETA: overheads are going to be higher due to the location and also likely so are the ingredients compared to many regular sandwich bars.  All of which makes it even better value.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 13, 2015)

editor said:


> Since when is a sandwich a  "large filled bap"?
> 
> Not sure where you eat, but I certainly don't pay a fiver for a sandwich in central London sandwich bars.



I said large filled bap as I was comparing what I would normally  have for lunch with the value of this new grilled meat and cheese sandwich. I probably should have compared it to a grilled ciabatta as its a better comparison, sorry.

IIRC you don't eat meat so that's probably why your not paying the best part of a fiver, which is what I actually said, for a sandwich/ciabatta loaded with meat and cheese. Once you start adding rare beef or slow cooked lamb into your lunchtime treat prices tend to jump up a bit.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 13, 2015)

On an issue of such importance, someone will have to get up there to try it.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

leanderman said:


> On an issue of such importance, someone will have to get up there to try it.


I'm very happy to take one for the team.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 13, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I said large filled bap as I was comparing what I would normally  have for lunch with the value of this new grilled meat and cheese sandwich. I probably should have compared it to a grilled ciabatta as its a better comparison, sorry.


I'm glad you apologised because to be fair to compare a sandwich with a bap is a massive fucking faux pas. 

Given your prompt apology I for one am willing to accept and just move on. I hope others can do likewise.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm glad you apologised because to be fair to compare a sandwich with a bap is a massive fucking faux pas.
> 
> Given your prompt apology I for one am willing to accept and just move on. I hope others can do likewise.


Yeah, let's all baguette about it.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 13, 2015)

Oh dear,the puns have started


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 13, 2015)

Yep. They're on a roll.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 13, 2015)

Can we cut them in half? They just add filling.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Yep. They're on a roll.


Some may be sub standard though..


----------



## Rushy (Jul 13, 2015)

I think we should stop this nonsense before SpamMisery makes another ill judged comment about baps.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 13, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think we should stop this nonsense before SpamMisery makes another ill judged comment about baps.



Very rye


----------



## deadringer (Jul 13, 2015)

Yes, let's not make a big wholemeal and deal out of it


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think we should stop this nonsense before SpamMisery makes another ill judged comment about baps.


Agreed. Let's just wrap this up.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Yes, let's not make a big wholemeal and deal out of it


Let's have naan of this nonsense any more. 

(Somebody help me)


----------



## deadringer (Jul 13, 2015)

Come on, let's stop this now, it's the yeast we can do.


----------



## discobastard (Jul 13, 2015)

Since somebody seeded the idea of a £5 toastie it's all gone sour. D'oh!


----------



## leanderman (Jul 13, 2015)

Oh focaccia's sake!


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 13, 2015)

Shut it, you melts.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 13, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Oh dear,the puns have started


*buns *ffs


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 14, 2015)

editor said:


> If you can afford a fiver for a sandwich, I'm sure it is.



So Franco Manca's £4.50 undercooked dough with a sprinkle of oregano is ok according to you, but a full on sarnie for a fiver is off limits? Genuine laugh out loud moment!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 14, 2015)

I think we need to revisit the Brindisa cheese on toast controversy at this point in the discussion.


----------



## Winot (Jul 14, 2015)

Dedicated thread needed?


----------



## Winot (Jul 14, 2015)

A sticky, obviously.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> So Franco Manca's £4.50 undercooked dough with a sprinkle of oregano is ok according to you, but a full on sarnie for a fiver is off limits? Genuine laugh out loud moment!


A "full on sandwich" eh?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 14, 2015)

This is all a bit reminiscent of the "is a burger a meal" discussion


----------



## deadringer (Jul 14, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> This is all a bit reminiscent of the "is a burger a meal" discussion




IIRC that one was judged yes if it was at The Albert, no if it's at Honest Burger, although I could be wrong on that one as it was a while ago now.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2015)

deadringer said:


> IIRC that one was judged yes if it was at The Albert, no if it's at Honest Burger, although I could be wrong on that one as it was a while ago now.


Cross thread beef.

Geddit.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

Winot said:


> Too late.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-cafe-to-open-its-doors-in-soho-10128016.html



I think I have seen this. Soho is now full of eateries designed around a concept. I find it all a bit soulless. Kingly Court which used to be workshops is now all eateries and shops.

They often do not last that long. At one point it there were around Soho several shops selling bubble tea. That craze passed.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

Kingly Court is perfect for the Summer. Lots of good bars and restaurants


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Kingly Court is perfect for the Summer. Lots of good bars and restaurants


no it's not, it's shit.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

Good point, well made


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Kingly Court is perfect for the Summer. Lots of good bars and restaurants



Its pretty horrible conversion of purpose built office/ workspace into yet another collection of eateries and shops. Just what Soho didnt need any more of.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its pretty horrible conversion of purpose built office/ workspace....



Really? What's wrong with it? I think the restaurants work really well round a tight little square - particularly with the balcony running all the way round and the restaurants having the big windows which open up. Good place for an after work beer in the sunny courtyard


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What's wrong with it?


it's a plastic paradise, a temple to conspicuous consumption, and another step towards the complete homogenisation of the old soho.........


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> it's a plastic paradise, a temple to conspicuous consumption, and another step towards the complete homogenisation of the old soho.........



I assumed he meant architecturally, not ideologically. On ideological grounds, I guess people just have to accept there will always be opposing views; neither being right or wrong, just personal opinion


----------



## T & P (Jul 15, 2015)

Architecturally speaking, Soho has always been a messy, uninspiring shithole anyway. IMVHO.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 15, 2015)

It's got some of the nicest standard pubs in London though.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> it's a plastic paradise, a temple to conspicuous consumption, and another step towards the complete homogenisation of the old soho.........


That's pretty much it. Characterless, shiny, 21st century shopping malls patrolled by security guards delivering the regulation, extra-bland, cashflow-optimised, social media-fuelled, anytown experience.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

editor said:


> That's pretty much it. Characterless, shiny, 21st century shopping malls patrolled by security guards delivering the regulation, extra-bland, cashflow-optimised, social media-fuelled, anytown experience.



That's the reality of the 21st Century world you live in. Things change. You either accept it, or become that boring old fucker who starts every sentence with "back in my day.....". No doubt it will all change again in the future as people en masse decide they want something different. And no doubt, people will be complaining about that shift in social behaviour on the internet too, clamouring for a return to the days when you could turn up in any part of town and be guaranteed to find a restaurant serving decent burgers and cocktails...... "Pop Ups" I think we used to call them


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> That's the reality of the 21st Century world you live in.


Except it's not and you can help influence that by your buying choices. You seem to just roll over and let yourself be spoonfed any old corporate bollocks, shrugging your shoulders and blaming it all on the inevitable, unstoppable progress. And then rushing to buy into (and defend) whatever bland capitalistic vision has just been presented to you.

One small example: almost all websites like this have advertising and sponsorship. But this one does not. See? It can be different.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 15, 2015)

T & P said:


> Architecturally speaking, Soho has always been a messy, uninspiring shithole anyway. IMVHO.



Yep. Apart from Kingly Court, a handful of pubs and restaurants, and Chinatown, the place is a khazi.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Except it's not and you can help influence that by your buying choices. You seem to just roll over and let yourself be spoonfed any old corporate bollocks, shrugging your shoulders and blaming it all on the inevitable, unstoppable progress. And then rushing to buy into (and defend) whatever bland capitalistic vision has just been presented to you.



Not at all. There are just more important things in my life.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Not at all. There are just more important things in my life.


Then please try and accept and understand that to some people these things _are_ important, rather then attempting to belittle and patronisingly dismiss their concerns as the mumblings of "boring old fuckers" .


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Then please try and accept and understand that to some people these things _are_ important, rather then attempting to belittle and patronisingly dismiss their concerns as the mumblings of "boring old fuckers" .



I agree. As I said a few posts earlier:



SpamMisery said:


> On ideological grounds, I guess people just have to accept there will always be opposing views; neither being right or wrong, just personal opinion


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I agree. As I said a few posts earlier:


And then you went on to compare anyone who failed to accept your particular take on the "reality of the 21st Century world they live in" as "boring old fucker."


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 15, 2015)

editor said:


> Then please try and accept and understand that to some people these things _are_ important, rather then attempting to belittle and patronisingly dismiss their concerns as the mumblings of "boring old fuckers" .



Equally, you should accept that others welcome change. It's not all bad.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Equally, you should accept that others welcome change. It's not all bad.


Have I ever said that? I welcomed the change that was first heralded with this development, and said so. And then it turned into a business park without any consultation.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

Last word


----------



## T & P (Jul 15, 2015)

As a general thought, how is the 'cafe culture' of the Continent that most of us undoubtedly love different from the cafes, bars and restaurants in London that so many people appear to object to?


----------



## tompound (Jul 15, 2015)

Having lived in Spain/Germany/Belgium/Italy, the main difference is that it tends to be locally/family owned and I guess the ethos flows from that, which among other nice things tends to mean fairly cheap prices, where you can genuinely go daily and it be part of a regular social experience, rather than a irregular treat.


----------



## T & P (Jul 15, 2015)

tompound said:


> Having lived in Spain/Germany/Belgium/Italy, the main difference is that it tends to be locally/family owned and I guess the ethos flows from that, which among other nice things tends to mean fairly cheap prices, where you can genuinely go daily and it be part of a regular social experience, rather than a irregular treat.


That's certainly true in the smaller towns/ not so touristy areas of big cities, but many of the bars in hotspots/ tourist traps can be very expensive, and a lot of them will have long ago ceased to be family owned as well.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 15, 2015)

Of course the UK has its own pub culture which overseas visitors often love as much as we do those continental cafe's


----------



## discobastard (Jul 15, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> a temple to conspicuous consumption



Yeah, the small selection of independents and mini-chains in Kingly Court is rather reminiscent of Westfield Shopping Centre.  Or at a push, Monaco.


----------



## T & P (Jul 15, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Of course the UK has its own pub culture which overseas visitors often love as much as we do those continental cafe's


True that.

I wonder if, in the happy days of yesteryear when there were so many more pubs around, people complained about the number of pubs blighting their streets and neighbourhoods, just as we do now about bars and restaurants.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 15, 2015)

T & P said:


> True that.
> 
> I wonder if, in the happy days of yesteryear when there were so many more pubs around, people complained about the number of pubs blighting their streets and neighbourhoods, just as we do now about bars and restaurants.



I imagine some families resent(ed) pubs.

I'd quite like to spend some time in them - but could never get away with it.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

T & P said:


> True that.
> 
> I wonder if, in the happy days of yesteryear when there were so many more pubs around, people complained about the number of pubs blighting their streets and neighbourhoods, just as we do now about bars and restaurants.


Generally the pubs were already long-established in their neighbourhood, and formed a focal point of the local community. 

They were also often family-run concerns, unlike the here-today gone-tomorrow hipster pop up ventures jetting into Brixton to capitalise on its new found profitability.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 15, 2015)

Or chain pub co's too? I think it's easy to throw stones at the new businesses - whilst many of the pubs around here have been ground down by large national pub chains.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Or chain pub co's too? I think it's easy to throw stones at the new businesses - whilst many of the pubs around here have been ground down by large national pub chains.


I thought we were talking about the "happy days of yesteryear."


----------



## Winot (Jul 15, 2015)

T & P said:


> I wonder if, in *the happy days of yesteryear when there were so many more pubs around*, people complained about the number of pubs blighting their streets and neighbourhoods, just as we do now about bars and restaurants.



Yeah but it's fairly well-documented that the beer was shit back then.  There's probably never been a better time for ale drinkers in this country (just been to Craft in Leather Lane for a delicious pint of 2.8% session IPA).

I was amazed when I stayed in the centre of Barcelona how many local family run bars there were.  It's been a while since I was there though, so could all have changed.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 15, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought we were talking about the "happy days of yesteryear."



Watney's Party Keg anyone?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 15, 2015)

T & P said:


> True that.
> 
> I wonder if, in the happy days of yesteryear when there were so many more pubs around, people complained about the number of pubs blighting their streets and neighbourhoods, just as we do now about bars and restaurants.



I'm pretty sure they did. Often for religious reasons I think but also because they were sometimes a focus for trouble. 

Depending on when the happy days of yesteryear were. The number of pubs has been going down since the 19th Century - most areas that were subjected to slum clearance from then up until the 60s/70s lost a whole load of pubs as well as houses.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 15, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm pretty sure they did. Often for religious reasons I think but also because they were sometimes a focus for trouble.



Yes, the temperance movement was massive; model housing for workers like Bourneville was built without pubs.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Yes, the temperance movement was massive; model housing for workers like Bourneville was built without pubs.


There was a temperance billiard room on Coldharbour Lane. But also lots and lots of pubs.  

The movement ran out of steam after WW2.








http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/09/the-old-temperance-billiard-hall-on-coldharbour-lane-brixton/


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Or chain pub co's too? I think it's easy to throw stones at the new businesses - whilst many of the pubs around here have been ground down by large national pub chains.


exactly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 15, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Watney's Party Keg anyone?



You can stick the entire barrel of that stoat piss up your Khyber, mate.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 15, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Or chain pub co's too? I think it's easy to throw stones at the new businesses - whilst many of the pubs around here have been ground down by large national pub chains.


One of the major factors in the destruction of English pub culture and many historical places has been property prices: modern pub chains are in fact more property-flipping companies that just happen to concentrate on pubs. This sort of company will happily buy a place, manage it until a buyer can be found and then sell it off for flats.

There are a lot of pubs in London still, sure, but if one pub closes it doesn't mean everyone who was a regular just shrugs and goes to the next one. It takes time to build up a community in a pub and it depends on a consistent atmosphere. Combine that with the absurd prices and you have the situation that exists now where pubs are frequently just destinations: you might arrange to meet people you know there but they have no social aspect any more than a Pizza Hut does.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

When I think of London pubs I think of the old london white working classes. People like my parents mates.  All long gone, with the vast mass of the London white working class, to Kent Essex etc. Now London pubs just seem for the middle class, but they are not really pub people anyway and never were.  Basically if the London towns were still full of "cockney" types, they would still be doing well, imo. They are like old relics and reminders of a people who left years ago.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 15, 2015)

I think generally people's drinking habits are changing. Im pushing 40 now, but when I were a lad, me and my pals would go out religiously every Friday and Saturday, binge drink, have a  good natter and try and cop off/get a phone number or whatever. Every weekend was buzzing, we couldn't get enough. 

Younger lads I speak to now through work, guys I play football with, from the gym or whatever, don't tend to go out quite so much. It doesn't seem to excite them like it did me. What with Tinder, Internet dating, lads no longer need to do the hard yards in the pubs and clubs if they want to get a girlfriend/hook up or whatever. Nowadays it can allbe done from the comfort of your own home whilst playing your X Station.....

Maybe I'm talking utter bollocks, but it's certainly something I've noticed over recent years, pubs and clubs generally just seem to bit a bit emptier than they once were, hence so many closing. Reports that kids today are binge drinking less than we once did. Peoples drinking habits are changing. Maybe the much derided 'cafe culture' has happened, very slowly over the years and people would rather go for a nice meal and a few quality drinks rather than neck turboshandies and as many bottles of WKD as you could stomach!


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I assumed he meant architecturally, not ideologically. On ideological grounds, I guess people just have to accept there will always be opposing views; neither being right or wrong, just personal opinion



Ideology is about opposing views. 

Architecture cannot be divorced from ideology.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 15, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> When I think of London pubs I think of the old london white working classes. People like my parents mates.  All long gone, with the vast mass of the London white working class, to Kent Essex etc. Now London pubs just seem for the middle class, but they are not really pub people anyway and never were.  Basically if the London towns were still full of "cockney" types, they would still be doing well, imo.


We don't have many cockneys in Shepherd's Bush. But only a few years ago there were far more pubs which had a social mix and weren't based just around one community—you could literally go in and talk to brickies, lawyers, bus drivers, web developers, converse in a general meeting place about any old shite. (One thing about that English pub culture is that it _was_ overwhelmingly male, though.) I used to talk to people who'd been going to pubs in the area for years, when the local MP used to pop in.

As time has gone on, the pubs have been shut and replaced with either something else or nothing at all, and with every closure people drop off. Maybe they don't like the alternatives chosen by the people they knew so go somewhere else, maybe they just don't bother any more. It's ended up with a situation where there are only pubs catering to very specific communities—a couple of Irish pubs, and that's not safe—or ones that are destinations for meeting up, like the pubs by the Empire or the Wetherspoons in the W12.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> That's the reality of the 21st Century world you live in. Things change. You either accept it, or become that boring old fucker who starts every sentence with "back in my day.....". No doubt it will all change again in the future as people en masse decide they want something different.



Sometimes I read your posts and cant really believe you think this. 

There are a whole section of society who are excluded from this 21st C consumer paradise you like so much. They cannot afford it. 

From a Marxist point of view life under Capitalism is ever changing. Capitalism is also inherently unstable. Good to see you think that. 

So I take it if we have yet another crisis of Capitalism and you lose your job and home you will be ok about that as life in 21st  C things change and one has to accept it.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

There's no real valid alternative though, is there? One that'll actually work?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Peoples drinking habits are changing. Maybe the much derided 'cafe culture' has happened, very slowly over the years and people would rather go for a nice meal and a few quality drinks rather than neck turboshandies and as many bottles of WKD as you could stomach!



Cafe Culture is the norm in Mediterranean countries. The binge drinking culture is British and Irish. 

If I go to the Portuguese Cafe in Brixton Station Road for example. Its representative of affordable working class Portuguese culture.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> There's no real valid alternative though, is there? One that'll actually work?



Which alternative do you mean? As the present one just collapsed.

To say there is no real alternative is one thing.

What I object to from Spam is that he is ideologically supportive of the way things are but will not say so. Its like reading the Evening Standard reading Spams posts.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

Portugese cafes in london are very community orientated. I know some great ones.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Which alternative do you mean? As the present one just collapsed.


And it started up again, like it often does. I am all ears for an alternative to a free market and/or mixed economy, it's just i have never heard of a decent one that actually sounds like it works, experiments in which back my judgement up. A third way is needed perhaps.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

[QUOTE=" Its like reading the Evening Standard reading Spams posts.[/QUOTE]
Nothing is that bad.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> And it started up again, like it often does. I am all ears for an alternative to a free market and/or mixed economy, it's just i have never heard of a decent one that actually sounds like it works, experiments in which back my judgement up. A third way is needed perhaps.



I have Spanish friend. In Spain there is a different political culture. People will come out on the streets more. 

They also have new left parties like Podemos which are making headway.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

All I hope for nowadays is higher taxes for the rich to be spent on the people. But no alternative to the market I can see is present


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> There are a whole section of society who are excluded from this 21st C consumer paradise you like so much.



I don't remember saying I like it.



Gramsci said:


> What I object to from Spam is that he is ideologically supportive of the way things are but will not say so. Its like reading the Evening Standard reading Spams posts.



Again, I don't remember saying I was supportive.



Gramsci said:


> So I take it if we have yet another crisis of Capitalism and you lose your job and home you will be ok about that as life in 21st  C things change and one has to accept it.



A strawman argument. You are extending a position to extreme lengths to suggest it is ridiculous. It's not a valid way of debating. I was merely saying that I don't know how some people can get so angry about a few bars and restaurants in what is fundamentally a tourist and shopping destination (Soho).


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

soho should technically be one of the most exciting places on earth. right in the heart of a giant metropolis, the cultural centre of a massive beast.

but admit it now, it's a bit shit. it needs grime, wrong uns, weirdos, independant businesses, chaos, depravity, etc, etc - now it's started to feel like one giant gastro pub. 

of all places, a londoner would hope that it was off limits, protected, safely resembling always what it always stood for. i fear for it!


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I don't remember saying I like it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not a valid way of debating. Excuse me hope ur not trying to close down the argument.

Its not a strawman argument. You put forward a generalisation about how things change in the 21st C. So your argument was taking this issue beyond Soho to a general discussion of how society operates. I did likewise. You reply is trying to close down the debate.

You are now "merely" saying that you do not understand how people get so angry.

You certainly did imply you liked it in an earlier post. You said you liked Kingly court.

Soho is not or was not a fundamentally tourist and shopping destination. It is becoming so and people who used it ( film industry and media) are being pushed out by higher rents for example.

This is not inevitable. Nor is it value free change. Its valid to oppose the loss of a balance between commercial use and retail use.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> soho should technically be one of the most exciting places on earth. right in the heart of a giant metropolis, the cultural centre of a massive beast.
> 
> but admit it now, it's a bit shit. it needs grime, wrong uns, weirdos, independant businesses, chaos, depravity, etc, etc - now it's started to feel like one giant gastro pub.
> 
> of all places, a londoner would hope that it was off limits, protected, safely resembling always what it always stood for. i fear for it!


It's rapidly turning into the security-guard encircled, life-squeezed-out-of-it enhanced shopping mall experience that is central Manhattan.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

it's the endless coffee bar/sushi bar/coffee bar/resturant ad infinitum that gets me. it;s surprising when a place sells something beyond food or coffee. oh look, a bike shop, how novel!


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

depressing. maybe it's time we all left.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> but admit it now, it's a bit shit. it needs grime, wrong uns, weirdos, independant businesses, chaos, depravity, etc, etc - now it's started to feel like one giant gastro pub.



I was chatting to someone who has done deliveries to Soho shop for years. Mainly the independent ones ( fliers etc). He said it used to take him all day to cover Soho. Now it takes a few hours. It shows he said the gradual loss of the independent sole traders. They cannot afford new leases.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I was chatting to someone who has done deliveries to Soho shop for years. Mainly the independent ones ( fliers etc). He said it used to take him all day to cover Soho. Now it takes a few hours. It shows he said the gradual loss of the independent sole traders. They cannot afford new leases.


again, depressing.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 15, 2015)

I'm in Pop right now. It's full of people 20 years younger than me and my wife enjoying themselves. We are too.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm in Pop right now. It's full of people 20 years younger than me and my wife enjoying themselves. We are too.


That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

think internet is partly to blame. there were more shops and more variety when we bought our things from actuall shops instead of the internetz


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 15, 2015)

and super markets selling everything from coat hangers to penny sweets.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 15, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> think internet is partly to blame. there were more shops and more variety when we bought our things from actuall shops instead of the internetz



Internet is massively to blame. Many shops these days are places where people go to look at something before finding it cheaper on the Internet.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Not a valid way of debating. Excuse me hope ur not trying to close down the argument.



No, just letting you know it is a strawman argument



Gramsci said:


> Its not a strawman argument. You put forward a generalisation about how things change in the 21st C. So your argument was taking this issue beyond Soho to a general discussion of how society operates. I did likewise. You reply is trying to close down the debate.



My final reply (of three - the other two of which I note you've chosen to ignore) was not closing down the debate. I'm happy to discuss the issue. 

You're right, I did take it to a broader discussion. However, it was a generalist discussion of something tangible and near universally agreed by all - namely (like it, loathe it, or be indifferent to it) consumerism is a fundamental aspect of modern society. Yours was a hypothetical extension to an extreme example in order to suggest my original position was wrong..... which is why it is a strawman argument.



Gramsci said:


> You are now "merely" saying that you do not understand how people get so angry.
> 
> You certainly did imply you liked it in an earlier post. You said you liked Kingly court.



You inferred it, I did not imply it. I said I like Kingly Court, the fact it's a sun spot in Summer, the fact it's good for an after work beer, and the architecture. That is not the same as liking a consumerist 21st Century.



Gramsci said:


> Its valid to oppose the loss of a balance between commercial use and retail use.



Agreed.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm in Pop right now. It's full of people 20 years younger than me and my wife enjoying themselves. We are too.



It does seem to be having some success, slightly to my surprise.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 15, 2015)

editor said:


> That's wonderful. I'm so happy for you.


I've obviously irritated you by pointing out some truths as to your posting style. 

Please put me on ignore or at least don't reply to my posts. I'll extend you the same courtesy.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> From a Marxist point of view life under Capitalism is ever changing. Capitalism is also inherently unstable. Good to see you think that.
> 
> So I take it if we have yet another crisis of Capitalism and you lose your job and home you will be ok about that as life in 21st  C things change and one has to accept it.


So by Spam accepting change is a part of life, you have extrapolated that means he is ok about possibly losing his home and his job? 

You're not a great advert for Marxism.


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## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> You're right, I did take it to a broader discussion. However, it was a generalist discussion of something tangible and near universally agreed by all - namely (like it, loathe it, or be indifferent to it) consumerism is a fundamental aspect of modern society. Yours was a hypothetical extension to an extreme example in order to suggest my original position was wrong..... which is why it is a strawman argument.
> 
> You inferred it, I did not imply it. I said I like Kingly Court, the fact it's a sun spot in Summer, the fact it's good for an after work beer, and the architecture. That is not the same as liking a consumerist 21st Century.



So do u like consumerist society or not?

You were doing more than making a generalisation of how things are. You were putting forward an idea of how things change:



> That's the reality of the 21st Century world you live in. Things change. You either accept it, or become that boring old fucker who starts every sentence with "back in my day.....". No doubt it will all change again in the future as people en masse decide they want something different. And no doubt, people will be complaining about that shift in social behaviour on the internet too, clamouring for a return to the days when you could turn up in any part of town and be guaranteed to find a restaurant serving decent burgers and cocktails...... "Pop Ups" I think we used to call them



I was not making an extreme example to show your position was wrong. I was actually saying you are right about things always changing. What I was asking was if that changed affected your life adversely would you still say that one must accept it.


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## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So by Spam accepting change is a part of life, you have extrapolated that means he is ok about possibly losing his home and his job?
> 
> You're not a great advert for Marxism.



Not what Spam said. 

Read post above.


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## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So by Spam accepting change is a part of life, you have extrapolated that means he is ok about possibly losing his home and his job?
> 
> You're not a great advert for Marxism.



I have obviously irritated you. 

Hope you are enjoying Pop Brixton.


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## teuchter (Jul 15, 2015)

I think it's a good thing that pubs are no longer the "focal point of the community".

Traditional style pubs were hardly inclusive.

Question is, what have they been replaced with? Internet forums?

It would be interesting to know whether people really know fewer (or a less representative sample of) people who live in their local area now, compared to say 30 years ago. A lot of people do seem to participate in stuff online that is based on geographical proximity, whether it's stuff like u75 or facebook groups for their street. And those people do seem to meet each other in real life too.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So do u like consumerist society or not?



Neither. I've said it doesn't bother me.



Gramsci said:


> What I was asking was if that changed affected your life adversely would you still say that one must accept it.



Now that's a clearer argument because it removes the extreme "what if you lost your job" element. However, the answer is still yes. Because things change. Sometimes in your favour. Sometimes not.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 15, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I have obviously irritated you.
> 
> Hope you are enjoying Pop Brixton.


No you haven't Gramsci, I think you are the best poster here. Genuinely. These are only bulletin boards and like you I think I'm able to keep that perspective. Because one disagrees with something or points something out,  you will be tarred with a reputation. Like editors sarcastic response to me above because he doesn't like a truth I pointed out earlier in the thread 

Pop this evening was just full of young people having fun. None of them give a flying fuck about what Pop should have been and what it turned out to be. If you tried to explain the difference now to what it should have been how many people would think there was much of a difference? How many would really care? About a dozen people If I'm generous?


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## teuchter (Jul 15, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Now that's a clearer argument because it removes the extreme "what if you lost your job" element. However, the answer is still yes. Because things change. Sometimes in your favour. Sometimes not.


You should accept things changing because things change?


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## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2015)

teuchter said:


> You should accept things changing because things change?



Its getting to late for this. Cant sleep as I have given up smoking (again).

I cannot get my head around what Spam really thinks.

Its seems to be that everything changes and we must go with the flow. Bit like what my Buddhist friends say.

(I will be at the LJ masterplan event tomorrow.)


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## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I've obviously irritated you by pointing out some truths as to your posting style.


You haven't irritated me in the lightest, and I've no idea what these damning "home truths" are.


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## editor (Jul 15, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Pop this evening was just full of young people having fun. None of them give a flying fuck about what Pop should have been and what it turned out to be.


Is that all that matters to you?

What about the people who aren't having such whoopee fun? You know, the ones that can't afford it, the ones that feel excluded from its trendy demographic or the ones who feel they've been sold a pup by a council who changed the rules half way through and stuck two fingers up to those who now feel thoroughly duped?


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## SpamMisery (Jul 15, 2015)

teuchter said:


> You should accept things changing because things change?



Yes and no. I accept change because change is a fundamental aspect of human behaviour (which, ironically has not changed in several hundred thousand years). The sentence is not greatly different from saying "I accept I breathe oxygen because I breathe oxygen"


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## Mr Retro (Jul 15, 2015)

editor said:


> You haven't irritated me in the lightest, and I've no idea what these damning "home truths" are.


Please at least quote me accurately.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It would be interesting to know whether people really know fewer (or a less representative sample of) people who live in their local area now, compared to say 30 years ago.


I'd say that's almost certainly the case, given the way that so many long standing communities have been sent packing from Brixton for various reasons in recent years.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Please at least quote me accurately.


I thought you were just trumpeting the fact that you weren't going to respond to my posts?


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought you were just trumpeting the fact that you weren't going to respond to my posts?


 I asked you not to quote me and in return I would do the same. As you decided not to accept I think I can respond.

How is this "trumpeting the fact I'm not going to respond to your posts"?  Like, seriously dude.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

I sometimes find the way "the poor" are used in these arguments a bit patronising/distasteful, almost like they are being used just to back up someone's personal distaste of gentrification.

has anyone actually surveyed and analysed what "the poor" in brixton think of somewhere like pop? perhaps alternative comments to "I can't afford to eat there and it's just beyond my poor life and therefore i hate it" might be "i think it's great to see young people in my town enjoying themselves in a safe, non-criminal way" or "it's great to see jobs being created" or "i like to be part of a town that has thriving parts to it" or "i feel safer at night with more people around" or "hopefully lambeth will get more in business tax because of it to spend on services" or "it;s great my teenager has a place to hang out that is well lit, not infested with gangs, and is reasonably crime free", or "we will use it on the rare case we go out for a meal" etc, etc.

they _could_ be saying any of the above. why this narrative of "I am so poor and i hate pop because i can't buy a coctail/burger etc there" just comes across as a bit patronising, unless all the poor have been asked their opinion?

Who knows here for certain what the poor or low earners think of these sort of gentrified bits? it's a bit arrogant to assume, no?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I asked you not to quote me and in return I would do the same. As you decided not to accept I think I can respond.


You can ask whatever you like, but there's no reason why I should have to accede to your request - especially after you've just posted up some stupid bollocks about me. If you want to ignore a poster, use the ignore function.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Is that all that matters to you?
> 
> What about the people who aren't having such whoopee fun? You know, the ones that can't afford it, the ones that feel excluded from its trendy demographic or the ones who feel they've been sold a pup by a council who changed the rules half way through and stuck two fingers up to those who now feel thoroughly duped?


Like I already asked, but which you dishonestly cut from my quote, how many people actually really care? A dozen? More? I honestly don't know. I suspect the people who you say feel excluded from its trendy demographic are very few.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> You can ask whatever you like, but there's no reason why I should have to accede to your request - especially after you've just posted up some stupid bollocks about me. If you want to ignore a poster, use the ignore function.


What stupid bollix is this please?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Like I already asked, but which you dishonestly cut from my quote, how many people actually really care? A dozen? More? I honestly don't know. I suspect the people who you say feel excluded from its trendy demographic are very few.


So you think there's only a very small amount of people in the area who  may feel excluded by Pop Brixton's targeted demographic and prices?

Personally, I know a whole load of people who can't afford to go jollying off there for an evening of expensive drinks, fine wine and 'street food' grazing.


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## footballerslegs (Jul 16, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I think it's a good thing that pubs are no longer the "focal point of the community".
> 
> Traditional style pubs were hardly inclusive.
> 
> Question is, what have they been replaced with? Internet forums?



I think bookies have replaced some of the function of the trad local pub.


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## Rushy (Jul 16, 2015)

footballerslegs said:


> I think bookies have replaced some of the function of the trad local pub.


Interesting. Had not thought about it like that. In Australia the two are sometimes merged (bookies in pubs).


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## technical (Jul 16, 2015)

Bookies in pubs sounds like a really dangerous idea!


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## Rushy (Jul 16, 2015)

technical said:


> Bookies in pubs sounds like a really dangerous idea!



There was talk some time back about it being allowed here. Not sure what came of it. 

Not really what I'd want from my local!


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## Belushi (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> soho should technically be one of the most exciting places on earth. right in the heart of a giant metropolis, the cultural centre of a massive beast.
> 
> but admit it now, it's a bit shit. it needs grime, wrong uns, weirdos, independant businesses, chaos, depravity, etc, etc - now it's started to feel like one giant gastro pub.
> 
> of all places, a londoner would hope that it was off limits, protected, safely resembling always what it always stood for. i fear for it!



Bit in Vice today about 'brothel chic' in Soho

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/brothel-chic-in-soho-frankie-mullin-500


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## 299 old timer (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> I sometimes find the way "the poor" are used in these arguments a bit patronising/distasteful, almost like they are being used just to back up someone's personal distaste of gentrification.
> 
> Who knows here for certain what the poor or low earners think of these sort of gentrified bits? it's a bit arrogant to assume, no?



Excellent post. It's very patronising and condescending to hear what I can or can not do, because I earn below the London average wage.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Excellent post. It's very patronising and condescending to hear what I can or can not do, because I earn below the London average wage.



reminds me of the post from the woman who in the early days thought the village was like berlin (and then it got gentrified! - lol), who made a point of mentioning all the "white" gentrifiers, and then the POC in the comments saying how patronising it was for her to bring race into it.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> So you think there's only a very small amount of people in the area who  may feel excluded by Pop Brixton's targeted demographic and prices?
> 
> Personally, I know a whole load of people who can't afford to go jollying off there for an evening of expensive drinks, fine wine and 'street food' grazing.


That's not what I asked but then you know that.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Excellent post. It's very patronising and condescending to hear what I can or can not do, because I earn below the London average wage.


Who's been telling you what you can't do?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That's not what I asked but then you know that.


So you'll just keep on ignoring my points then? Your questions are unanswerable, but at least I'm dealing with the topic.


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## 299 old timer (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Who's been telling you what you can't do?



Err, you, champion of the poor! Meanwhile it would seem that for the moment Pop Brixton is a success. I guess the stakeholders need to recoup the original investment (1.5 mil if I read correctly) so it is unsurprising that the venture is commercially orientated. In time we can only hope that it does what the PR blurb said - I'm a bit doubtful because of the open air nature of the project, but we can only wait and see.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Err, you, champion of the poor!


Be sure to back that up with an actual post of mine, thanks.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> So you'll just keep on ignoring my points then? Your questions are unanswerable, but at least I'm dealing with the topic.


I think there are a small amount who actually care. Which is much different. If you, their self appointed spokesman can provide evidence to the contrary I'd be more than happy to acknowledge I'm wrong.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If you, their self appointed spokesman can provide evidence to the contrary I'd be more than happy to acknowledge I'm wrong.


I live on a council estate in one of the poorest wards in London. Some of my friends and co-residents are really struggling to make ends meet. They can't afford to spend their evenings sampling upmarket wines and street foods in trendy container parks.

That world may be alien to you but I speak to plenty of people who feel thoroughly excluded by what's going on at Pop Brixton (and other parts of Brixton) and I don't really care much if you believe me or not. These people exist, and I'll continue to give a fuck regardless of your sneering, "self appointed spokesman" put downs.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I live on a council estate in one of the poorest wards in London. Some of my friends and co-residents are really struggling to make ends meet. They can't afford to spend their evenings sampling upmarket wines and street foods in trendy container parks.
> 
> That world may be alien to you but I speak to plenty of people who feel thoroughly excluded by what's going on at Pop Brixton (and other parts of Brixton) and I don't really care much if you believe me or not. These people exist, and I'll continue to give a fuck regardless of your sneering, "self appointed spokesman" put downs.


So no evidence then?

I'll thank you not to assume what I know about people who have to struggle. You know nothing about me.


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## CH1 (Jul 16, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Bit in Vice today about 'brothel chic' in Soho http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/brothel-chic-in-soho-frankie-mullin-500


Unfortunately Pop Brixton is not seedy Brixton chic, but rather aspiring upmarket food and entertainment dressed in rusty shipping containers.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So no evidence then?


I think this provides all the 'evidence' any reasonable person would require to understand that Pop Brixton will be unaffordable to some. Unless you think people on benefits have enough money to spend evenings in trendy, upmarket foodie 'destinations'.


> The latest deprivation data is from 2010, which ranks Lambeth as the 8th most deprived borough in London and 14th most deprived in England. Those living in the most deprived areas are spread throughout the borough but are particularly concentrated in Coldharbour ward
> 
> Coldharbour is the most deprived part of the borough, unemployment is high and income is lower than the borough average.
> 
> ...





Mr Retro said:


> You know nothing about me.


Oh, I think I'm building up a pretty good picture.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

of course it is unaffordable to some! infact id'd think it was unaffordable even to the brixton middle classes who have families, mortgages, etc. lots of disposable income is confined normally to quite a small group - i.e. people in their twenties on the first few rungs of the career ladder. most people with bills and mortgages to pay couldn't afford it too, except as a rare treat. doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with the park.


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I think this provides all the 'evidence' any reasonable person would require to understand that Pop Brixton will be unaffordable to some. Unless you think people on benefits have enough money to spend evenings in trendy, upmarket foodie 'destinations'.



But pretty much anything that's not free will always be "unaffordable to some". There will no doubt be people among the acquaintances you speak of who can't afford to go out to some of the places that you _do_ approve of.

Pop is probably not an everyday destination for most people. Chances are though that there will be folk that might forego something else, perhaps an evening in The Albert, in order to afford something they consider a little bit different/special, at Pop.

If you can afford to go to The Albert twice a week, you can afford to go to Pop Brixton once instead, and there will be plenty of people who choose to do that. Affordability is subjective.


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## CH1 (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> of course it is unaffordable to some! infact id'd think it was unaffordable even to the brixton middle classes who have families, mortgages, etc. lots of disposable income is confined normally to quite a small group - i.e. people in their twenties on the first few rungs of the career ladder. most people with bills and mortgages to pay couldn't afford it too, except as a rare treat. doesn't mean there is anything inherently wrong with the park.


You seem to be implying that Lambeth Council are running a theme park for wealthy people in order to somehow balance their budget.

Generally anything Lambeth touches tends to end up costing money though - so it could even end up that us (me anyway) impecunious council tax payers end up subsidising the rich.

Don't we do enough of that anyway?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> If you can afford to go to The Albert twice a week, you can afford to go to Pop Brixton once instead, and there will be plenty of people who choose to do that. Affordability is subjective.


The major difference being that the Albert is a private pub. The Albert wasn't a vision of Lambeth's 'co-operative council' and it wasn't being sold to locals as some sort of community "green oasis" before morphing into a 'business park for the 21st Century' backed by some space-squeezing property developers.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I think this provides all the 'evidence' any reasonable person would require to understand that Pop Brixton will be unaffordable to some. Unless you think people on benefits have enough money to spend evenings in trendy, upmarket foodie 'destinations'.


I'm not sure if you are wilfully missing the point or if you are so anxious to make your point (once again) you are missing it.



editor said:


> Oh, I think I'm building up a pretty good picture.


No really, you're not.


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## T & P (Jul 16, 2015)

The majority of businesses in Pop will be no more unaffordable to the poorest people in the ward than the businesses trading outside of Pop, certainly as far as the food and drink industry is concerned. And that includes all the Brixton favourite, well-established bars and clubs most of us like to patronise. So what is the answer? Should we seek to change/ drive out every business that is out of reach to the poorest people in the ward? Or do we accept that not all businesses trading in Brixton will be within reach of all people living in the borough, and stop criticising some of them while happily supporting others that are just as out of reach to the poorest?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm not sure if you are wilfully missing the point or if you are so anxious to make your point (once again) you are missing it.
> 
> 
> No really, you're not.


I'll just give up then as it's clear you're unwilling/unable to construct a meaningful argument.


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## CH1 (Jul 16, 2015)

T & P said:


> The majority of businesses in Pop will be no more unaffordable to the poorest people in the ward than the businesses trading outside of Pop, certainly as far as the food and drink industry is concerned. And that includes all the Brixton favourite, well-established bars and clubs most of us like to patronise. So what is the answer? Should we seek to change/ drive out every business that is out of reach to the poorest people in the ward? Or do we accept that not all businesses trading in Brixton will be within reach of all people living in the borough, and stop criticising some of them while happily supporting others that are just as out of reach to the poorest?


Don't agree with that. Pop is being promoted to a particular segment of the market - much of this market being from outside Brixton.

The small businesses around in the arches etc. have been around for years and have their own local clientel. Max Cafe don't double the price of a Laté if they spot you're a tourist (i.e. no local non regular) do they?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

T & P said:


> The majority of businesses in Pop will be no more unaffordable to the poorest people in the ward than the businesses trading outside of Pop, certainly as far as the food and drink industry is concerned. And that includes all the Brixton favourite, well-established bars and clubs most of us like to patronise. So what is the answer? Should we seek to change/ drive out every business that is out of reach to the poorest people in the ward? Or do we accept that not all businesses trading in Brixton will be within reach of all people living in the borough, and stop criticising some of them while happily supporting others that are just as out of reach to the poorest?


Except the knock-on effect of these shiny new trendy upmarket businesses is that they are contributing to the huge rent hikes currently being inflicted on established, more affordable businesses (see: Kaff/arches).

What makes Pop Brixton so contentious in my mind is that it's a _council driven venture_, and one that was completely mis-sold to the community.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I'll just give up then as it's clear you're unwilling/unable to construct a meaningful argument.





editor said:


> The major difference being that the Albert is a private pub. The Albert wasn't a vision of Lambeth's 'co-operative council' and it wasn't being sold to locals as some sort of community "green oasis" before morphing into a 'business park for the 21st Century' backed by some space-squeezing property developers.


So once again my point which you are wilfully ignoring is who really actually cares about what we have now to what was promised? Is there even that much of a difference? Rushy made a good argument earlier in the thread that it's actually not that different. 

You and perhaps a handful of others here are the only people I know who really genuinely care about the differences such as they are.  If there is evidence to the contrary I will happily admit I'm wrong.


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## Winot (Jul 16, 2015)

This thread really illustrates the Manichean nature of U75.

1. First, a decision needs to be taken - is a venue/business Good or Bad?

2. If it is Bad, everything it does will be taken to be Bad. 

3. If it is Good, it will be given the benefit of the doubt.

4. Anyone suggesting that a Bad venue might have some redeeming features will be assumed to be supporting all of the Bad things it does (even if they agree that those things are Bad).

5.  Anyone suggesting that a Good venue might have slipped up shall be told they are wrong because of the Good things it does.

6.  Nuance is Bad.


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## CH1 (Jul 16, 2015)

Winot said:


> This thread really illustrates the Manichean nature of U75.


You  are treading on my toes here. I am seeking to understand all these early heresies before I finally pop my clogs.

You have the Manicheans to blame for St Augustine (of Hippo). The one who promulgated the doctrine of original sin. Everyone one's a sinner - and has to get baptised at birth for a temporary respite, thereafter needing regular confession and spiritual guidance from the church to enable one to have a mild purgatory followed by an ascent to the heavenly realms.

If you set aside all this light and dark, good and bad stuff you are ascribing to Manicheanism (incorrectly in my belief) it all boils down to people getting a bee in their bonnet.

And having a bee in the bonnet can sometimes, or even often, be good - resulting in social change for example.

What I don't quite understand from supporters of Pop Brixton is how a business venture targeting as customers young people with a high disposable income can be *GOOD* in a moral sense?


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## Winot (Jul 16, 2015)

I bow to your greater knowledge of Manicheanism CH1 - I'm afraid mine is Wiki-deep.

I'm right about Urban though.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 16, 2015)

T & P said:


> The majority of businesses in Pop will be no more unaffordable to the poorest people in the ward than the businesses trading outside of Pop, certainly as far as the food and drink industry is concerned. And that includes all the Brixton favourite, well-established bars and clubs most of us like to patronise. So what is the answer? Should we seek to change/ drive out every business that is out of reach to the poorest people in the ward? Or do we accept that not all businesses trading in Brixton will be within reach of all people living in the borough, and stop criticising some of them while happily supporting others that are just as out of reach to the poorest?



I think this is fair to say about bars and clubs/venues....not so much about shops..cafes...some of the older traditional places to grab a bite.

If grocers and butchers and fishmongers and those other day to day shops are killed off by rent hikes then that does exlude people at lower income end when they are replaced by someone paying more/charging more.

I agree those on the lowest income are as unlikely to be regular users of kaff or the Albert or even The Pheonix anymore than they are Pop.

Pop has landed, and it has its target market and they are descending in their droves. How do we measure any adverse effect on Brixton? I'm no economist. I don't know.

How much is pop the enemy or just the poster boy for the enemy?

When you have someone leading the Reclaim Brixton charge while also DJing at Pop it does start to blur the lines between what Pop stands for, why and for whom?

As stated elsewhere...Pop could end up costing Lambeth. A couple of months of awful weather could murder it....

But tarp is cheap....so who knows.


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## CH1 (Jul 16, 2015)

Winot said:


> I bow to your greater knowledge of Manicheanism CH1 - I'm afraid mine is Wiki-deep.
> 
> I'm right about Urban though.


You're clearly messianic!


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> The major difference being that the Albert is a private pub. The Albert wasn't a vision of Lambeth's 'co-operative council' and it wasn't being sold to locals as some sort of community "green oasis" before morphing into a 'business park for the 21st Century' backed by some space-squeezing property developers.



But how many local people care, or even know, about that? 

Your anecdotal evidence suggests that it's a "whole load" of people, but the fact that the venue is regularly packed (I highly doubt that they're all from outside Brixton) suggests it's not an issue for very many more.   

I reckon the average punter is only really concerned with what the facility provides, how well, and how much it costs.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> But how many local people care, or even know, about that?
> 
> Your anecdotal evidence suggests that it's a "whole load" of people, but the fact that the venue is regularly packed (I highly doubt that they're all from outside Brixton) suggests it's not an issue for very many more.
> 
> I reckon the average punter is only really concerned with what the facility provides, how well, and how much it costs.



You only have to look at the numbers of people exiting the tube at the weekends to see how many are from outside...

...there was a time a gig at the academy created such numbers...now its 3-5 days  week....


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## 299 old timer (Jul 16, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Unfortunately Pop Brixton is not seedy Brixton chic, but rather aspiring upmarket food and entertainment dressed in rusty shipping containers.



Good point. It is. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread it is a symptom, not the cause. Lambeth Labour were returned to power with an overwhelming majority, and now they have the chutzpah to do whatever they like. It's not good.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So once again my point which you are wilfully ignoring is who really actually cares about what we have now to what was promised?


I'm not "wilfully ignoring" it. It's a stupid, pointless question with an answer that is impossible to quantify.

I live here. I talk to a lot of people. I post up what I hear. Perhaps you mix with a different crowd who don't give a flying fuck so long as they can join in with the young people with disposable incomes all having a jolly wonderful time there.

A lot of the people I know do give a fuck. In fact, some are really fucking angry. I don't care if you believe me or not.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Your anecdotal evidence suggests that it's a "whole load" of people, but the fact that the venue is regularly packed (I highly doubt that they're all from outside Brixton) suggests it's not an issue for very many more.


It's not 'regularly packed' either.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Winot said:


> This thread really illustrates the Manichean nature of U75.
> 
> 1. First, a decision needs to be taken - is a venue/business Good or Bad?
> 
> ...


Except that simplistic analysis doesn't apply here because of how the project completely changed focus.  I'm not angry at the businesses that are there and I don't care if they're good/bad (whatever that means). I'm angry because I feel Lambeth pulled a fast one and completely misrepresented what was on offer. I feel cheated.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So by Spam accepting change is a part of life, you have extrapolated that means he is ok about possibly losing his home and his job?
> 
> You're not a great advert for Marxism.



Do you even know what Marxism is without going and checking out wikipedia?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Is that all that matters to you?
> 
> What about the people who aren't having such whoopee fun? You know, the ones that can't afford it, the ones that feel excluded from its trendy demographic or the ones who feel they've been sold a pup by a council who changed the rules half way through and stuck two fingers up to those who now feel thoroughly duped?



I think that such people are to be ignored, or at best treated as amusing scenery.


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> It's not 'regularly packed' either.



It's been very busy on all but one occasion that I've been there and others here seem to confirm that they're certainly getting the numbers in. The points is, loads of people like it and either don't know or don't care about the founding principles.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> I sometimes find the way "the poor" are used in these arguments a bit patronising/distasteful, almost like they are being used just to back up someone's personal distaste of gentrification.
> 
> has anyone actually surveyed and analysed what "the poor" in brixton think of somewhere like pop? perhaps alternative comments to "I can't afford to eat there and it's just beyond my poor life and therefore i hate it" might be "i think it's great to see young people in my town enjoying themselves in a safe, non-criminal way" or "it's great to see jobs being created" or "i like to be part of a town that has thriving parts to it" or "i feel safer at night with more people around" or "hopefully lambeth will get more in business tax because of it to spend on services" or "it;s great my teenager has a place to hang out that is well lit, not infested with gangs, and is reasonably crime free", or "we will use it on the rare case we go out for a meal" etc, etc.
> 
> ...



The poor have as diverse opinions as anyone else. Speaking as a pov myself, I don't expect people to share my opinions merely because they share my financial situation. That said, there's a definite "current" among those in my _locale_ towards resenting the "gentrification" of retail Brixton because it feeds into the gentrification of residential Brixton.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> The points is, loads of people like it and either don't know or don't care about the founding principles.


Right. So if some people like it - mainly tourists and those with sufficient disposable cash - that's the end of the discussion then? Is that the 'point'?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Excellent post. It's very patronising and condescending to hear what I can or can not do, because I earn below the London average wage.



Poverty line is currently fixed at 60% of median income. It doesn't take a lot to earn below it.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 16, 2015)

I miss the old days when we used to spend our time arguing about C+F


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Right. So if some people like it - mainly tourists and the reasonably well to do, I imagine - that's the end of the discussion then? Is that the 'point'?



No. The point is that there's no evidence that the punters are "mainly tourists and the reasonably well to do", and the place could well be being enjoyed equally by those you describe as 'not being able to afford it', albeit less frequently than those that are better off financially, and another poster listed a whole load of reasons why locals may welcome such a place.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> No. The point is that there's no evidence that the punters are "mainly tourists and the reasonably well to do", and the place could well be being enjoyed equally by those you describe as 'not being able to afford it', albeit less frequently than those that are better off financially, and another poster listed a whole load of reasons why locals may welcome such a place.


So the place is enjoyed by people who can't afford it? How exactly?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I miss the old days when we used to spend our time arguing about C+F


Except you weren't registered or posting here then. But how could this be?!


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> So the place is enjoyed by people who can't afford it? How exactly?



Read it again. 

People _who you_ describe as not being able to afford it.

Then see post #2404.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 16, 2015)

I like the fact you bothered to check lol. I lurked for some time before joining the fray.

Also, I wasn't being literal; more pointing out the pointlessness of the "anti this establishment, anti that establishment" discussions.

[EDIT] and having checked the posts, it appears I was involved http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-chat-august-2014.326185/page-9#post-13342942


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> People _who you_ describe as not being able to afford it.


I didn't write the report that put the local ward as being one of the most deprived in London. Or do you think Pop Brixton is affordable for struggling single mums and those on benefits? And do you think it's good that Lambeth is backing such narrow-demographic-attracting ventures which is, after all, the whole point here.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

have you asked all the single mums if it is affordable to them? or are you just making that assumption? i know a single mum who works three days a week at minimum wage and is on benefits. she meets with my wife every couple of months...for a meal...often more expensive than what is served in pop.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

She also lives in a hellish road in croydon which hasn't seen a lick of paint in about 40 years and she has talked about how much she likes brixton these days...

...so the mass opinion of the poor and lowely paid can't just be neatly summed up and used to slag off this pop place.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

...and i don't know how she would take of other people saying for her that somewhere is beyond her reach or that she naturally wouldn't like it.


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Or do you think Pop Brixton is affordable for struggling single mums and those on benefits?



Again, see #2404. 



> And do you think it's good that Lambeth is backing such narrow-demographic-attracting ventures which is, after all, the whole point here.



But how narrow is the demographic? And what about folk who are skint but consider that there may be other benefits to such a venture like those outlined by Bigmoaner?


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## 299 old timer (Jul 16, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Poverty line is currently fixed at 60% of median income. It doesn't take a lot to earn below it.



The goalposts will be continuously shifted according to the needs of our masters. What is truly depressing is that a political movement that originated for the basic rights of the working class has totally sold out - particularly here in Lambeth


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## ddraig (Jul 16, 2015)

ed, don't give them the satisfaction 
they are having fun playing with you and tying to catch you out whilst justifying some shipping containers selling shit people don't need.
it is after all a game to some, sadly


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Affordability is subjective.



Of course.
As are the criteria for affordability.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

Winot said:


> This thread really illustrates the Manichean nature of U75.
> 
> 1. First, a decision needs to be taken - is a venue/business Good or Bad?
> 
> ...



If that's what you take from these debates then you don't actually know what "nuance" means. Urban is as far from Manichean as it's possible to be. It's the shades of grey to the Manichean black and white.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Good point. It is. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread it is a symptom, not the cause. Lambeth Labour were returned to power with an overwhelming majority, and now they have the chutzpah to do whatever they like. It's not good.



Of course it isn't, especially as Labour are well aware that the primary motivation of some of their voters is simply to prevent the Lib-Dems and/or the Tories getting in power again, and *nothing* to do with a preference for Labour's politics (which are as neoliberal as those of the other scrotes anway). They treat us as though we gave them a mandate, and act accordingly, all the while feathering their own political nests.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> The goalposts will be continuously shifted according to the needs of our masters. What is truly depressing is that a political movement that originated for the basic rights of the working class has totally sold out - particularly here in Lambeth



That political movement sold out the moment they abandoned (the purely ornamental) Clause 4 of the Labour Constitution in 1994. They signalled louder than bombs that they no longer believed in a basic tenet of the party's formation - although they'd already abandoned socialism _per se_ earlier.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 16, 2015)

Affordable or not, it doesn't mean the single mums of Brixton won't go or don't want to go to Pop. 

As far as Pop is concerned we might have the following...(I say might)


People who can afford to go there and want to
People who can afford to go there and do
People who can afford to go there and might
People who can afford to go there and don't want to

People who cannot afford to go there and want to
People who cannot afford to go there and do (or will find a way)
People who cannot afford to go there and might (if they can find a way)
People who cannot afford to go there and don't want to
What drives all these groups are a myriad of reasons.....some young, wealthy proffesionals may hate Pop as much as a 'poor person' of the ward might hate Pop. Just as both might love it.

The debate about who goes and why seems a bit pointless to me.

...and being a single mum (or dad) does not immediatelt equate to being poor and excluded....even if you live on a council estate.


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## leanderman (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> And do you think it's good that Lambeth is backing such narrow-demographic-attracting ventures which is, after all, the whole point here.



That is a point, but far from the whole point.

Is Pop not also providing a lot of business start-up space, some of it heavily discounted for locals?


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> That is a point, but far from the whole point.
> 
> Is Pop not also providing a lot of business start-up space, some of it heavily discounted for locals?



And what is meant to happen to these start up businesses when the project comes to an end in 2 or so years time. What help with the cost of re-establishing a business again,  in premises likely to be significantly more to rent.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ...and being a single mum (or dad) does not immediatelt equate to being poor and excluded....even if you live on a council estate.


I was referring to the official figures that show Coldharbour Ward to be the most deprived ward in the borough, where unemployment is high and income is lower than the borough average.


> Coldharbour is the poorest ward in Lambeth. Three in five residents are social housing tenants (61% v 38% overall); two thirds of whom rent from the council's ALMOs39 (Lambeth Living and United Resident’s Housing) or a Tenant Management Organisation (TMO), and a third from housing associations (40% and 21% respectively of the population of the ward). Reflecting this, ward residents are less likely to be owner occupiers (12% vs 36%


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## CH1 (Jul 16, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I miss the old days when we used to spend our time arguing about C+F


It was more old school - the demo even attracted Police protection (for C +F)


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> That is a point, but far from the whole point.
> 
> Is Pop not also providing a lot of business start-up space, some of it heavily discounted for locals?


I suspect that 'heavily discounted' may have a similar cloudy tone to it as 'affordable housing' in this instance. It's clear that Pop was targeted at a particular demographic, and it certainly doesn't seem as accessible and as inclusive to small local traders as, say, Granville Market Space.

Even the Village (when it started) seemed more genuinely aimed at locals starting out (many of the Pop nu residents aren't exactly what I'd define as 'local' but we've been through all this already), with a lower barrier to entry.


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## Winot (Jul 16, 2015)

Hasn't the ramen stall from Station Rd moved into Pop? Can't get much more local than that.


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## leanderman (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> And what is meant to happen to these start up businesses when the project comes to an end in 2 or so years time. What help with the cost of re-establishing a business again,  in premises likely to be significantly more to rent.



This is what I find odd too. 

But they know what they are getting into.


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## Twattor (Jul 16, 2015)

Winot said:


> Hasn't the ramen stall from Station Rd moved into Pop? Can't get much more local than that.



I believe so.  I'd be very interested to know whether their prices have changed with the location change.


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 16, 2015)

Twattor said:


> I believe so.  I'd be very interested to know whether their prices have changed with the location change.


I don't know what the price was before, but now its £6.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> This is what I find odd too.
> 
> But they know what they are getting into.


I imagine such a risky future would automatically exclude some smaller/less lucrative businesses.


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

Talk about clutching at straws!

2 years is a long time for a food retail start up. Most will go out of business in the first year.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I was referring to the official figures that show Coldharbour Ward to be the most deprived ward in the borough, where unemployment is high and income is lower than the borough average.



Which is fine. That any of them may or may not be single mums, or dads, is not really important.


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Talk about clutching at straws!
> 
> 2 years is a long time for a food retail start up. Most will go out of business in the first year.



Are you suggesting that there may not be a sustainable demand for these businesses....


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## leanderman (Jul 16, 2015)

Winot said:


> Hasn't the ramen stall from Station Rd moved into Pop? Can't get much more local than that.



The taco place also moved into Pop from
Station rd, suggesting the distinction drawn between 'real' Brixton and Pop Brixton is not that clear-cut.


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## leanderman (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I suspect that 'heavily discounted' may have a similar cloudy tone to it as 'affordable housing' in this instance. It's clear that Pop was targeted at a particular demographic, and it certainly doesn't seem as accessible and as inclusive to small local traders as, say, Granville Market Space.
> 
> Even the Village (when it started) seemed more genuinely aimed at locals starting out (many of the Pop nu residents aren't exactly what I'd define as 'local' but we've been through all this already), with a lower barrier to entry.



One Pop trader (a neighbour of mine)  is most annoyed at what he says are the much lower discounted rates


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Are you suggesting that there may not be a sustainable demand for these businesses....



Nope. I'm saying that the startup failure rate in the food retail industry is very high ("most" was an exaggeration but I'd be surprised if it was less than 30% in year one and 50% in five years) regardless of where they are. It's usually due to incompetence rather than demand. The point being that if the start-ups in Pop be assured favourable rates for the first 2 years that's quite a nice advantage.


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Nope. I'm saying that the startup failure rate in the food retail industry is very high ("most" was an exaggeration but I'd be surprised if it was less than 30% in year one and 50% in five years) regardless of where they are. It's usually due to incompetence rather than demand. The point being that if the start-ups in Pop be assured favourable rates for the first 2 years that's quite a nice advantage.


I take your point, and I'm certainly no expert. Seems a shame, for what ever reason to full it with so many foody drinky places if a good proportion of these are doomed to failure for whatever reason. Why not have more variety.


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## Spymaster (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> I take your point, and I'm certainly no expert. Seems a shame, for what ever reason to full it with so many foody drinky places if a good proportion of these are doomed to failure for whatever reason.



That's one view. Another might be that given the favourable conditions in their first 2 years, perhaps the start-ups in Pop will be more successful than average and should be encouraged. Having a theme to the venue, in this case food and drink, is also going to increase specific footfall (people going there _want_ to eat and drink) so that would likely help too.


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## Rushy (Jul 16, 2015)

There *is* more variety. There are fifty something containers. Less than one third of them have been occupied. Food units are mostly on the ground floor. Offices and studios are on the upper floors. Only the food units have been occupied do far. The offices and studios have yet to be occupied as they are not quite finished.


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There *is* more variety. There are fifty something containers. Less than one third of them have been occupied. Food units are mostly on the ground floor. Offices and studios are on the upper floors. Only the food units have been occupied do far. The offices and studios have yet to be occupied as they are not quite finished.


We were talking quite specifically and quite clearly about the retail bit that is already installed and the likelyness of there success, and where the succesful ones go from here. Nothing to do with the office / studio spaces to follow.


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## 299 old timer (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Are you suggesting that there may not be a sustainable demand for these businesses....



When I look at the rent review memos at work I wince - it's obvious why so many new start ups go under within a year


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## Rushy (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> We were talking quite specifically and quite clearly about the retail bit that is already installed and the likelyness of there success, and where the succesful ones go from here. Nothing to do with the office / studio spaces to follow.


There are not that many retail units. There has to be a focus of some sort to make people want to go there. Its simply not big enough to cater for a spread of commercial uses. From day one Grow proposed that their income would be from studio rentals and food and beverage concessions (plus ticketed events and sponsorship). Food and beverage command higher rents and are used to subsidise some of the units upstairs.


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## Rushy (Jul 16, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> When I look at the rent review memos at work I wince - it's obvious why so many new start ups go under within a year


A friend of mine is a business advisor to small start ups looking for government funding (a Virgin not for profit). He says you get a few blindingly good proposals but more usually there is no thinking at all about finance. A kind of "if we start the money will turn up in the end" mentality.


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## ddraig (Jul 16, 2015)

what's your cut?


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Nope. I'm saying that the startup failure rate in the food retail industry is very high ("most" was an exaggeration but I'd be surprised if it was less than 30% in year one and 50% in five years) regardless of where they are. It's usually due to incompetence rather than demand. The point being that if the start-ups in Pop be assured favourable rates for the first 2 years that's quite a nice advantage.


Yes it is. A Council created advantage. No wonder some existing businesses are pissed off.


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## Winot (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes it is. A Council created advantage. No wonder some existing businesses are pissed off.



Wouldn't that have been the case with the original EBS plan too?


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## deadringer (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes it is. A Council created advantage. No wonder some existing businesses are pissed off.



What demographic are the old businesses chasing, and how do their prices compare to the prices at Pop?


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## cuppa tee (Jul 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The taco place also moved into Pop from
> Station rd, suggesting the distinction drawn between 'real' Brixton and Pop Brixton is not that clear-cut.



..........a fence, forty feet of container and a big iron gate complete with security guards is about as clear cut as it gets outside a war zone.


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## leanderman (Jul 16, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> ..........a fence, forty feet of container and a big iron gate complete with security guards is about as clear cut as it gets outside a war zone.



That's quite a leap! 

All the same, they are the same businesses.

The cake place is another business to have moved in from elsewhere in Brixton.


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## leanderman (Jul 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> When you have someone leading the Reclaim Brixton charge while also DJing at Pop it does start to blur the lines between what Pop stands for, why and for whom?



Who would do such a thing?


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## cuppa tee (Jul 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Who would do such a thing?


I was wondering when this news would reach Urban 75



leanderman said:


> The cake place is another business to have moved in from elsewhere in Brixton.



I couldn't possibly comment being one of the excluded for various reasons, but mostly my tastes, I don't know how anyone can fool themselves it is for
the whole community tho'


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I couldn't possibly comment being one of the excluded for various reasons, but mostly my tastes, I don't know how anyone can fool themselves it is for the whole community tho'


Indeed. It's fucking obvious that it's not.


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There are not that many retail units. There has to be a focus of some sort to make people want to go there. Its simply not big enough to cater for a spread of commercial uses. From day one Grow proposed that their income would be from studio rentals and food and beverage concessions (plus ticketed events and sponsorship). Food and beverage command higher rents and are used to subsidise some of the units upstairs.



Thats really not the point I was making, Im not so naive as to not accept that a degree of commercial activity would be needed to support the further activities of either scheme. My reservation is that the benefit of a 2 year reduced rent in order to benefit local business and local employees, is offset by the brevity of 2 years. Generally most businesses benefit from consitency, and within the retail industry, this includes consistancy of premises. Add to that the suggestion by another poster of the food industry being paticularly hard to make work, its starting to sound less of a great idea.

Further more, in my opinion, Brixton already has a pretty extensive and broad  selection in terms of both flavours and budgets. This is almost certain to change, surely there is a saturation point. And the current hype wont last forever itll be POP Tooting soon enough, and whilst POP might be pleasant now for those that enjoy it, as soon as the good weather is over it will feel like what it is, standing in a metal box eating expensive, albeit nice fish and chips.

And for the local established community businesses, some may make the switch, but many wont, and seeing the council give helping hand up to new start up food places is going to feel like a kick in the teeth.

We can all argue till were blue in the face as to whether or not the POP experience is welcomed, enjoyable, value for money, etc,etc. Thats pretty irrelevant.

Is it really bringing something positive and long lasting and of genuine value to the community is the real question, and I'm pretty skeptical that it will. But who knows maybe the offices and studios will prove us skeptics wrong.


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## cuppa tee (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed. It's fucking obvious that it's not.


......it's as if someone thinks tweeting #keepitcommunity day in day out will make it so though, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
In fact I am coming to the conclusion that the Brixton Green mob have somehow installed themselves as the_ de facto_ community
and their presence is enough for some to consider projects community led...........


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

the only place i hear/read that it's "not for the community" is here!


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> the only place i hear/read that it's "not for the community" is here!


Try asking around a bit more in the real world. People aren't making it up here.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> the only place i hear/read that it's "not for the community" is here!



Well, probably best to define 'community' first.

I'm still trying to work that one out. I don't feel Pop is fully inclusive, but then again I'm not sure if what some people consider the 'community' is fully inclusive.

Mostly I feel very divided right now by a Brixton that has been forever changing, but has been historically, in mine mind, completed by a wide ranging group of disparate vessels all buffeting along side one another. Today it feels a little more like lots of ships in a race towards a single prize.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Mostly I feel very divided right now by a Brixton that has been forever changing, but has been historically, in mine mind, completed by a wide ranging group of disparate vessels all buffeting along side one another. Today it feels a little more like lots of ships in a race towards a single prize.


It's becoming a two tier town, increasingly defined by the amount of disposable income you have (or don't have). Places like Pop just accelerate that depressing trend.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> It's becoming a two tier town, increasingly defined by the amount of disposable income you have (or don't have). Places like Pop just accelerate that depressing trend.


It has been a two tier town for 20 years now....it just might be more obviously two tier now....


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## editor (Jul 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It has been a two tier town for 20 years now....it just might be more obviously two tier now....


I don't agree. There always been divisions of course, but not the economic ones that have really opened up in the last 5 years or so.


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## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> the only place i hear/read that it's "not for the community" is here!



I would not agree with that. In the circles I move in most are critical (thats putting it mildly) of how Pop Brixton has turned out. And that’s people who do not post here.


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## Rushy (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Thats really not the point I was making, Im not so naive as to not accept that a degree of commercial activity would be needed to support the further activities of either scheme. My reservation is that the benefit of a 2 year reduced rent in order to benefit local business and local employees, is offset by the brevity of 2 years. Generally most businesses benefit from consitency, and within the retail industry, this includes consistancy of premises. Add to that the suggestion by another poster of the food industry being paticularly hard to make work, its starting to sound less of a great idea.



The project is a "meanwhile" project. It is making temporary use of a vacant site. Tenants know that their lease was for a minimum of two years, with a chance it will be extended bit by bit up to five. I'm sure many would prefer it to be more but that's never been what is on offer. Only eight units will be substantially subsidised and I don't believe any of those are retail/food units (as I understand it retail is being used to subsidise the cheaper units because it is able to make a fast buck). 

Each of the business owners will make their own minds up about whether a minimum two years (either subsidised or not) is workable for their business plan. Some will get it right. Something like 50% of all start ups fail in the first couple of years so it's likely some will also get it wrong.

There are complaints that there's not enough subsidy. There are complaints that any subsidy is unfair.  Subsidy clearly isn't needed in the retail area. I hope it's not going there. I don't think it is. It will be interesting to find out where it is going. I'm not even sure that's been decided yet.


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## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't agree. There always been divisions of course, but not the economic ones that have really opened up in the last 5 years or so.



I agree. I have heard a lot of resentment expressed which was not that common a while back. This is from people who would have had a live and let live attitude previously.


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## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> ..........a fence, forty feet of container and a big iron gate complete with security guards is about as clear cut as it gets outside a war zone.



Chatting to a photographer I know and the security stopped him coming in with his camera recently. He is a professional with a decent camera. Dont know what they were afraid of.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

was the bouncer having  a bad hair day?

i'll get my coat.


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## T & P (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> It's becoming a two tier town, increasingly defined by the amount of disposable income you have (or don't have). Places like Pop just accelerate that depressing trend.


And wouldn't the original proposal have done the same? The only change so far AFAIK is the number of retail units involved. The original plans surely still relied on profit-making units to support the venture, and they would have been just as unaffordable to the poor.

Perhaps we should wait until the project is fully finished and the non-retail areas are opened before passing judgement?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Yes and no. I accept change because change is a fundamental aspect of human behaviour (which, ironically has not changed in several hundred thousand years). The sentence is not greatly different from saying "I accept I breathe oxygen because I breathe oxygen"



Change for what?

So you are saying that change is fundamental. Yes I agree. In earlier times slavery was considered normal. Now, whilst it still may go on, most right thinking people would oppose it.

Back in Victorian times children were put to work in factories. Now no one would support this in the UK.

Change can be seen as development over centuries to a higher level of human development.

Of course there can be relapses to more barbaric levels. As in the Nazis and WW2.

Human behaviour is not like breathing. Unlike animals humans collectively build cultures and civilization. Unlike animals humans can control and modify there behaviour. Its what culture is about.

What in the present appears just the way things are will not be in a few hundreds years time. Whether it better or not is a question for history.


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 16, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The project is a "meanwhile" project. It is making temporary use of a vacant site. Tenants know that their lease was for a minimum of two years, with a chance it will be extended bit by bit up to five. I'm sure many would prefer it to be more but that's never been what is on offer. Only eight units will be substantially subsidised and I don't believe any of those are retail/food units (as I understand it retail is being used to subsidise the cheaper units because it is able to make a fast buck).
> 
> Each of the business owners will make their own minds up about whether a minimum two years (either subsidised or not) is workable for their business plan. Some will get it right. Something like 50% of all start ups fail in the first couple of years so it's likely some will also get it wrong.
> 
> There are complaints that there's not enough subsidy. There are complaints that any subsidy is unfair.  Subsidy clearly isn't needed in the retail area. I hope it's not going there. I don't think it is. It will be interesting to find out where it is going. I'm not even sure that's been decided yet.



I get that it is a meanwhile project, and its precisely because of that as I am skeptical of its long term benefits to the local community. Maybe it would of been better if it had skipped the whole (quote from web site) "Pop Brixton is a pioneering new space created with the local community in mind ..."  rhetoric in the first place, it may still not be popular in some quarters, but it might not of raised heckles so much. its manner of coming into being has made itself, as someone said earlier i think, the poster boy for gentrification. And that is not going to help the businesses inside it. But i concur, it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> I
> 
> Who knows here for certain what the poor or low earners think of these sort of gentrified bits? it's a bit arrogant to assume, no?



I know as it one of the worlds I mix in. Being around and about London all day I mix with all sorts. My background is mixed class so I am a bit of an interloper. Or chameleon as friend once said. I can mix with a lot of backgrounds.

There is a lot of resentment about not just what is happening in Brixton but what is happening in London as a whole.

For some I know Pop Brixton does not even come on there radar. Why go on about something you will never use? A lot of people really cannot afford places like Pop. Its not for them. I know Cllr Hopkins goes on about helping people. A leg up and all that. But it really is not part of the world of those on local estates. As editor says.

I was talking to someone from local estate and she said youth on her estate cannot come to Brixton due to gangs postcode wars. Which is why the local youth centre is important. ( This was in LJ). There is a whole different world out there. I do not think some posters here ever get to meet it.


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## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> I get that it is a meanwhile project, and its precisely because of that as I am skeptical of its long term benefits to the local community. Maybe it would of been better if it had skipped the whole (quote from web site) "Pop Brixton is a pioneering new space created with the local community in mind ..."  rhetoric in the first place, it may still not be popular in some quarters, but it might not of raised heckles so much. its manner of coming into being has made itself, as someone said earlier i think, the poster boy for gentrification. And that is not going to help the businesses inside it. But i concur, it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



Up in Loughborough Junction LJAG have been developing business support through the meanwhile use of the old toilets at LJ ( The Platform that was were the cider festival was). There is also support for local small start ups. Up in LJ this seems to be happening without attracting the criticism that Pop is. Perhaps at LJ they are doing it in a more low key grass roots way that works with the local community. Rather than some grand project that promise a lot in theory, encourages peoples expectations then is a disapointment.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 16, 2015)

well, the gang thing is one of the most depressing things about london (especially if you have kids yourself) and will only get worse now the torys are cutting everything.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't agree. There always been divisions of course, but not the economic ones that have really opened up in the last 5 years or so.



I raised a kid here. Birthday parties were a huge eye opener to the division of wealth and attitudes in Brixton. The disparity has been here ages.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> well, the gang thing is one of the most depressing things about london (especially if you have kids yourself) and will only get worse now the torys are cutting everything.



Not just a problem in London and the big cities, anymore. I've heard of lots of gang-related nastiness in the larger towns in the south-east. Not surprising really, given that boredom and poverty happen everywhere, as do the businesses that fuel the gangs.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 16, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I raised a kid here. Birthday parties were a huge eye opener to the division of wealth and attitudes in Brixton. The disparity has been here ages.



I don't think it was as wide a gap 30 or even 20 or 10 years ago, as it is now, though. Yes, areas have always had small pockets of relative wealth - the person or two on a street who has a successful business, or does a high-paying job, but (and this is only a theory) I reckon that with the popularity among the liberal middle classes of situating yourself in the cachement of good schools came a widening of the wealth gap from what we might term "acceptable" levels, to less acceptable levels, and of course these strategies of decamping to a good cachement area exert an upward effect on property prices that fuels the widening of the wealth gap.


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## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> well, the gang thing is one of the most depressing things about london (especially if you have kids yourself) and will only get worse now the torys are cutting everything.



You are spot on there. Was at meeting about Loughborough Junction tonight. Had a couple of people talking about the Marcus Lipton Youth Centre. I was impressed. They live on local estates and are committed to doing there best of for there area. In short they could do a lot more with a larger centre and more funds. As poster like me say often Coldharbour Ward is a "deprived" ward. The Council have no funds to extend the centre. Discussion was about planning and how to use planning "gain" to fund modernised centre. This in London. A city where the super rich swan about a few miles away in central London. I know I see it in Bond street every day.

We are reduced to seeing what we can catch from the rich mans table.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 17, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Change for what?
> 
> So you are saying that change is fundamental. Yes I agree. In earlier times slavery was considered normal. Now, whilst it still may go on, most right thinking people would oppose it.
> 
> ...



Putting current consumerism, slavery, forced child labour, and the Nazis in the same sentence is a bit of a stretch although I do agree with the gist of the argument, albeit as you point out, not one which can be argued for some years to come.


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Putting current consumerism, slavery, forced child labour, and the Nazis in the same sentence is a bit of a stretch although I do agree with the gist of the argument, albeit as you point out, not one which can be argued for some years to come.


Actually we are going backwards at the moment surely?
Where formerly small businesses started and grew in accordance with local demands.
Now we have Lambeth Council sponsoring a large project importing hedonistic enterprises designed to appeal to well to do Bullingdon types, who are supposed to sustain this and make a profit for the council.

At least Lambeth don't seem to have got into LOBO investments - but I can't see that Pop investments are much better morally.


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## Gramsci (Jul 17, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Putting current consumerism, slavery, forced child labour, and the Nazis in the same sentence is a bit of a stretch although I do agree with the gist of the argument, albeit as you point out, not one which can be argued for some years to come.



Are we actually seeing some common ground Spam?

As my namesake says:

'Pessimism of the intellect, Optimism of the will’

To add a controversial intervention by the scientist Pinker is that violence has declined over the years.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 17, 2015)

Wonders never cease


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 17, 2015)

.


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## Gramsci (Jul 17, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Actually we are going backwards at the moment surely?
> Where formerly small businesses started and grew in accordance with local demands.
> Now we have Lambeth Council sponsoring a large project importing hedonistic enterprises designed to appeal to well to do Bullingdon types, who are supposed to sustain this and make a profit for the council.



As ever you have nailed the issue in your pithy prose.

Bit late but I keep remembering a sci fi short story when reading this thread.

Sailing to Byzantium by Silverberg

A far flung future where everyone is a hedonistic tourist of cities.



> Populated with artificial “temporaries” and built by robots, these cities are used somewhat like resorts for the placid and technologically wealthy citizens, who have nothing better to do than keep up with their social circles as they explore the streets of each new city. Then, when the citizens’ interest in a city begins to wane, it’s scrapped and replaced with a new marvel from the annals of history.



Keep thinking this short novel is apt for the present.


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## Up the junction (Jul 17, 2015)

editor said:


> Try asking around a bit more in the real world. People aren't making it up here.


People in the real world tend to want to agree with the 'weird guy with the web site' cos it's just easier. Bit like on here, really.

I heard in the real world over 70 people have gained employment from Pop so far - proper, going to work jobs. How's things at the two-bob Granville not-really-a-market?

The "Brixton poets" seem to be absent lately.


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## Up the junction (Jul 17, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Chatting to a photographer I know and the security stopped him coming in with his camera recently. He is a professional with a decent camera. Dont know what they were afraid of.


They were afriad he would steal their soul. Obviously.

I *like* that Mr Editor liked your post - a man who is more protective of his image rights than most of London combined.


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## Up the junction (Jul 17, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Actually we are going backwards at the moment surely?
> Where formerly small businesses started and grew in accordance with local demands.
> Now we have Lambeth Council sponsoring a large project importing hedonistic enterprises designed to appeal to well to do Bullingdon types, who are supposed to sustain this and make a profit for the council.


It was a carpark. Your solution? 

p.s. perish the thought of "hedonistic enterprises" - shut down the pubs, the clubs, the nightlife.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 17, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't think it was as wide a gap 30 or even 20 or 10 years ago, as it is now, though. Yes, areas have always had small pockets of relative wealth - the person or two on a street who has a successful business, or does a high-paying job, but (and this is only a theory) I reckon that with the popularity among the liberal middle classes of situating yourself in the cachement of good schools came a widening of the wealth gap from what we might term "acceptable" levels, to less acceptable levels, and of course these strategies of decamping to a good cachement area exert an upward effect on property prices that fuels the widening of the wealth gap.



Was a wide gap in Stockwell in the 1970s - Stockwell Park Crescent (and surrounding streets) had very wealthy people living there - kids carted by the coach to the private school - next to Stockwell Park estate and Stockwell Gardens estate. There was also a fair amount of council houses (Victorian builds),  homes  (children, elderly, disabled), squats, derelicts and prefabs - as these went, new houses were built which became owned by those able to afford to live in what was already an area of the well off. The mixed but predominately wealthy area of the 1970s and 1980s is now all wealthy apart from a handful of social housing.


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I heard in the real world over 70 people have gained employment from Pop so far - proper, going to work jobs.


Do you have any more information on this? An interesting aspect which should not be neglected in assessing the benefit to the community. Are they recruiting from local sources for example?

Obviously a small weekend market is not comparable with a large scale project involving millions of pounds investment and a whole architects office to create it.

But I can tell you this - back in the naughty 1990s projects wanting council funding had to report precisely on what local jobs were created and also the ethnicity, gender and sexuality of people placed in those jobs.

I daresay Pop Brixton will be providing this?


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## BigMoaner (Jul 17, 2015)

as we possibly both know boohoo, the old brixton seems to have shifted sumwhat a few miles down south  if you want to see the deprivation or the inner cities of say the 70s or 80s concentrated in one spot - take a walk around the streets around selhurst football ground. but, as you said about a mix, every third place or so will have nice middle class curtains and posh furniture!


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## BigMoaner (Jul 17, 2015)

as for schools, London one's are now out performing the rest of the country. even the ones that have your middle class racing away to the Surrey Hills are usually good enough. If you really want an interesting/often awkward conversation that involves a whole heap of political/economic/prejudicial angles, ask your average wealthy brixton home-owning liberal where they'll be sending their kids to school.. A huge amount wont even consider the idea and will be long gone before that.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 17, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I was talking to someone from local estate and she said youth on her estate cannot come to Brixton due to gangs postcode wars. Which is why the local youth centre is important. ( This was in LJ). There is a whole different world out there. I do not think some posters here ever get to meet it.


This is something I know nothing at all about and find it heartbreaking. When we were young we used to have rival parks and areas. We would meet them to play hurling or football or soccer against them. How can what kids have now in London be more different?


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## BigMoaner (Jul 17, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> This is something I know nothing at all about and find it heartbreaking. When we were young we used to have rival parks and areas. We would meet them to play hurling or football or soccer against them. How can what kids have now in London be more different?



can't be summed up on here. a massive, complex problem.


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## Winot (Jul 17, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> as for schools, London one's are now out performing the rest of the country. even the ones that have your middle class racing away to the Surrey Hills are usually good enough. If you really want an interesting/often awkward conversation that involves a whole heap of political/economic/prejudicial angles, ask your average wealthy brixton home-owning liberal where they'll be sending their kids to school.. A huge amount wont even consider the idea and will be long gone before that.



You've said this before and I don't know whether you have any evidence to back it up or if it's just anecdotal. Are you talking about primary or secondary education?

Most of my mates in Brixton are wealthy home-owning liberals (so shoot me) and they all send their kids to a local primary school. Not one has gone private.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 17, 2015)

Winot said:


> You've said this before and I don't know whether you have any evidence to back it up or if it's just anecdotal. Are you talking about primary or secondary education?
> 
> Most of my mates in Brixton are wealthy home-owning liberals (so shoot me) and they all send their kids to a local primary school. Not one has gone private.


secondary. the trend is changing but there's is still a move outward, which of course has other factors like house prices. but go on mums net mate and see the hilarity of even suggesting the idea of raising a kid in the inner-city. "we took one look at the secondary school and legged it" is a very common theme, which i suppose is a rational choice. what grates somewhat is when it comes from guardian readers who supposedly believe in state education and love the edginess and diversity of the inner city (when it suits them), but not enough to show a real investment in the area by raising a child here. all normal human behaviour i suppose.


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## Winot (Jul 17, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> secondary. the trend is changing but there's is still a move outward. go on mums net mate and see the hilarity of even suggesting the idea of raising a kid in the inner-city. "we took one look at the secondary school and legged it" is a very common theme, which i suppose is a rational choice. what grates somewhat is when it comes from guardian readers who supposedly believe in state education and love the edginess and diversity of the inner city (when it suits them). all normal human behaviour i suppose.



Ah right. We haven't reached that stage yet so I haven't got much anecdote to offer. 

I'd caution against a worldview based on reading Mumsnet... bad for the soul... even worse than Urban...


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## BigMoaner (Jul 17, 2015)

i have banged on about this in the past and i too have no hard data, i just am surrounded by sneery people in my family who have said "they wouldn't raise a dog" where i live (SE25), but then sup away at their lattes and read their guardian Culture suppliment away in the sticks. had some awful actual rows about it.


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## Winot (Jul 17, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i have banged on about this in the past and i too have no hard data, i just am surrounded by sneery people in my family who have said "they wouldn't raise a dog" where i live (SE25), but then sup away at their lattes and read their guardian Culture suppliment away in the sticks. had some awful actual rows about it.



Arseholes. Fuck 'em.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> They were afriad he would steal their soul. Obviously.
> 
> I *like* that Mr Editor liked your post - a man who is more protective of his image rights than most of London combined.



Straight back in with the digs, eh?


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> People in the real world tend to want to agree with the 'weird guy with the web site' cos it's just easier..





Up the junction said:


> I *like* that Mr Editor liked your post - a man who is more protective of his image rights than most of London combined.


If you think you can come back and start up this personal shit again, you're very much mistaken. Take a day off to think long and hard about it.


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## Up the junction (Jul 17, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Straight back in with the digs, eh?


You still counting "black faces" on your computer screen as a valid methodology for .... something. Incredible. 

Better get back to work, 1980s South Africa needs your input.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 17, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> You still counting "black faces" on your computer screen as a valid methodology for .... something. Incredible.
> 
> Better get back to work, 1980s South Africa needs your input.



Next time you're back, try to come up with a better reply than the above insinuation, there's a good fuckwit.


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## boohoo (Jul 17, 2015)

Winot said:


> Ah right. We haven't reached that stage yet so I haven't got much anecdote to offer.
> 
> I'd caution against a worldview based on reading Mumsnet... bad for the soul... even worse than Urban...



In my experience in Stockwell in the 80s  there were the parents who were hoping to get the kids into a private nursery, then those who only went private at primary level and then those who went to a good local primary and sent the kids private at secondary level.  (My mum worked in the local popular playgroup where the kids would talk about going to the yacht for the weekend) (Shocking! rich people in Stockwell in the 80s!)


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## DJWrongspeed (Jul 17, 2015)

BIZARRE.......Channel4 news used the 'pop' as a backdrop for feature on sugar consumption?  Complete with a rasta and groovy black lady.


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## Maharani (Jul 17, 2015)

Went for a nose tonight, around 8pm, was heaving, suffocatingly so. I don't get why people would want to eat in that atmosphere, it's certainly not relaxed. I couldn't see anywhere to actually sit down as it was crazy busy. 

I asked one of the security what time kids get chucked out, he didn't know (!). Security asked some woman that presumably helps to run it; she was clueless as was her colleague. I'm thinking they don't have a policy on what time to get kids out which I'm not sure how I feel about. 

Ended up going to 'elephant' in the village. Food was really tasty. The Village was really quiet though, I don't go regularly but I've never seen it so quiet at that time, on a Friday, on a nice warm evening. Shame.


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## CH1 (Jul 17, 2015)

It was very heaving at 10.45 when I went past. And I suspect Eckovision are now benefiting from the spillover - there were at least 20 in there. More than I've seen before.


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## equationgirl (Jul 18, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Do you have any more information on this? An interesting aspect which should not be neglected in assessing the benefit to the community. Are they recruiting from local sources for example?
> 
> Obviously a small weekend market is not comparable with a large scale project involving millions of pounds investment and a whole architects office to create it.
> 
> ...


The diversity reporting aspect is a usual requirement of receiving funding from all sorts of public bodies, especially European social fund money. Is Lambeth in receipt of any of that?


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## Up the junction (Jul 18, 2015)

I finally figured out the way to look at this thread is like you're listening to half drunk people after a long day at work in about 1995.


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## editor (Jul 18, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> I finally figured out the way to look at this thread is like you're listening to half drunk people after a long day at work in about 1995.


So you've just popped in to insult everyone and maybe get to disrupt the thread a bit too, eh?


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## Up the junction (Jul 18, 2015)

editor said:


> So you've just popped in to insult everyone and maybe get to disrupt the thread a bit too, eh?


Someone mentioned you get paid to run a club night at the same times most Fridays when Pop Brixton is heaving - that can't be true surely, ethical journalists would have declared a conflict of interest?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2015)




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## stethoscope (Jul 18, 2015)

Can't we just perma-ban this Upj twat? Just constant digs and doesn't appear to bring anything of merit to here at all.


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## Up the junction (Jul 18, 2015)

What's the problem - people here keep asking me if I work for Guinness Trust or Pop Brixton, with the inference I have a hidden agenda.

It's daft but I don't mind the question. It's just a question.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> What's the problem - people here keep asking me if I work for Guinness Trust or Pop Brixton, with the inference I have a hidden agenda.
> 
> It's daft but I don't mind the question. It's just a question.


You seem to be just popping in here to make rude snidey comments all the time. Please don't do that.


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## Up the junction (Jul 18, 2015)

Snide? It's a question. If there's a conflict of interest it illuminates the discussion.

btw, I don't "pop in here" - I post almost entirely in this discussion when I'm not banned. You on the other hand do seem to 'pop in' randomly.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2015)

Ok.

I'll ban you from the thread then.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 18, 2015)

It's all about ethics in Brtixton bulletin board 'journalism'.


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## editor (Jul 18, 2015)

Up the junction said:


> Someone mentioned you get paid to run a club night at the same times most Fridays when Pop Brixton is heaving - that can't be true surely, ethical journalists would have declared a conflict of interest?


I've had enough of your pointless bullshit. You can fuck off for a fortnight.


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## CH1 (Jul 18, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> The diversity reporting aspect is a usual requirement of receiving funding from all sorts of public bodies, especially European social fund money. Is Lambeth in receipt of any of that?


I wouldn't have thought this scheme was eligible for ESF - but who knows!
In the days when I dealt with ESF it had to be matched with local authority money and possible other contributions.
Technically just boosting business would be a qualification, see http://ec.europa.eu/esf/main.jsp?catId=33
I think there are only two ways of finding out - invite Tom Bridgeman for a onsite briefing, and loosen his toungue (might be expensive if rumours are true about £120 bottle of wine etc).
Alternatively - FOI request - before Mr Gove abolishes them!


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## editor (Jul 18, 2015)

I popped there in last night.  It looks just like a hip Shoreditch venue. 

The notion of it being a "green oasis" is laughable. It's just another trendy hangout for clubbers and drinkers with ample disposable income to spend.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 19, 2015)

I was in Pop tonight for more great food at Donistia Social Club. The dance music was in full flow again like the editors photo above in the new clubbing part. it is free in and people really seemed to be enjoying themselves.


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## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I wouldn't have thought this scheme was eligible for ESF - but who knows!
> In the days when I dealt with ESF it had to be matched with local authority money and possible other contributions.
> Technically just boosting business would be a qualification, see http://ec.europa.eu/esf/main.jsp?catId=33
> I think there are only two ways of finding out - invite Tom Bridgeman for a onsite briefing, and loosen his toungue (might be expensive if rumours are true about £120 bottle of wine etc).
> Alternatively - FOI request - before Mr Gove abolishes them!


To be fair I'd forgotten about the matching aspect, it was the reporting requirements I was focusing on (it's been a while since I did esf, thankfully,  I loathed having to manage that project). But it's a good point.

Also, if they are in receipt of any European funding I should be able to find out. Might take me a day or so though.


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## editor (Jul 19, 2015)

"Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life."


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## T & P (Jul 19, 2015)

I would describe a place where you can relax and dance and have a good time for free in the middle of a busy town centre as an oasis quite separate to the hustle and bustle of city life, yes. Not quite green yet, but that is to come soon. So what exactly is the problem?


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2015)

T & P said:


> I would describe a place where you can relax and dance and have a good time for free in the middle of a busy town centre as an oasis quite separate to the hustle and bustle of city life, yes. Not quite green yet, but that is to come soon. So what exactly is the problem?


Oasis: " pleasant or peaceful area or period in the midst of a difficult, troubled, or hectic place or situation"

It's a fucking trendy Shoreditch retail hangout.


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## T & P (Jul 19, 2015)

editor said:


> Oasis: " pleasant or peaceful area or period in the midst of a difficult, troubled, or hectic place or situation"
> 
> It's a fucking trendy Shoreditch retail hangout.


I would have thought a place offering free music/dancing space would have met with your approval. Never mind that, as it has been pointed out repeatedly, the project is not meant to be finished yet and more green space & non commercial usage will (or should) be opening soon. So we could end up with a place offering both green & peaceful areas during the day and a lively night music/ dance space both completely free for people to enjoy. What troubles you so much about that?

You seem to be going out of your way to demonise Pop Brixton at every juncture, even when most other people would have to look pretty fucking hard to find something to fault- such as a free dance music event. I really struggle to understand the reasoning behind it


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2015)

T & P said:


> I would have thought a place offering free music/dancing space would have met with your approval. Never mind that, as it has been pointed out repeatedly, the project is not meant to be finished yet and more green space & non commercial usage will (or should) be opening soon. So we could end up with a place offering both green & peaceful areas during the day and a lively night music/ dance space both completely free for people to enjoy. What troubles you so much about that?
> 
> You seem to be going out of your way to demonise Pop Brixton at every juncture, even when most other people would have to look pretty fucking hard to find something to fault- such as a free dance music event. I really struggle to understand the reasoning behind it


It's not just me who is unhappy with how the place has turned out, or the involvement of people like 'The Collective.'  I know lots of people who think we've been utterly cheated, and just because it suits your tastes and wallet, don't go assuming that everyone else is delighted with having a slab of trendy foodie Shoreditch dumped on Brixton.

Does it look much like this to you? 
















Is the project "bringing together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing"?


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## CH1 (Jul 19, 2015)

Don't know what was going on at Pop tonight.
I went past at 10.35 pm and the gates were shut.
On the way home from the Beehive at 11.05 pm the gates were wide open and there was a mass exodus of youngish Black people (who seemed pretty well behaved I have to say - possibly because cars seemed their preferred transport option).

Maybe T & P can throw some light on this wholesome and ethnically balancing event?


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## T & P (Jul 19, 2015)

(editor) Well tbh it's difficult to say until it's finished. I'm happy to admit several aspects thus far are different to the original proposal, and some aspects of it that have been reported are deserving of criticism. But other aspects are more positive, and if people are enjoying a dance and having a good time at the place on a Saturday night without having to fork out for admission, that's not a bad thing in my book.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> It's not just me who is unhappy with how the place has turned out, or the involvement of people like 'The Collective.'  I know lots of people who think we've been utterly cheated, and just because it suits your tastes and wallet, don't go assuming that everyone else is delighted with having a slab of trendy foodie Shoreditch dumped on Brixton.
> 
> Does it look much like this to you?
> 
> ...



It is getting tedious to have to keep reminding some posters about what this meanwhile project was supposed to end up as.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

It is getting tedious having to remind people that it has not ended up yet!

But, so far, there seems to be plenty of performance and making - we just need a bit of growing.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

I went in for the first time on Saturday night. I didn't get anything to eat but some of my friends did. Just had a few beers. I found it to be rather like a hundred other places in London. Nothing original really. It didn't feel like Brixton and yes it was overwhelming white initially. That a couple of tat shop units seemed to be open and trading on a Saturday night did not please me. Felt like Camden or something. 

Later on there was a DJ in the dance floor bit and we went over there. At this point my feelings changed a bit. This crowd was quite mixed, arguably more so than I might expect in say the dogstar, the DJ was pretty good and there was a good atmosphere. Suddenly I was back in Brixton again. There was a dance-off going on at one point and everyone seemed to be enjoying themselves. All this was for free and available to anyone.

So, mixture of good and bad.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It is getting tedious having to remind people that it has not ended up yet!
> 
> But, so far, there seems to be plenty of performance and making - we just need a bit of growing.



I can't believe people are still talking about a few pot plants like it will change their opinion on whether Pop is a good thing or a bad thing


----------



## deadringer (Jul 20, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> It is getting tedious to have to keep reminding someposters about what this meanwhile project was supposed to end up as.



It's getting pretty tedious listening to the miserable posters carping on about how it excludes 'the poor', making out its full of moneyed up 'Bullingdon types' when you need no more money to visit than the U75 approved  pubs and bars.


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## Rushy (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> It's getting pretty tedious listening to the miserable posters carping on about how it excludes 'the poor', making out its full of moneyed up 'Bullingdon types' when you need no more money to visit than the U75 approved  pubs and bars.


The "Bullingdon type" comment was really quite outstanding.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I can't believe people are still talking about a few pot plants like it will change their opinion on whether Pop is a good thing or a bad thing


I can't believe that you can be this ignorant of the arguments being presented.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> It's getting pretty tedious listening to the miserable posters carping on about how it excludes 'the poor', making out its full of moneyed up 'Bullingdon types' when you need no more money to visit than the U75 approved  pubs and bars.


Exactly how many "miserable posters! have you had to listen to "carping on" about 'Bullingdon types' then? Could you list them all please. Ta.

The entrance fee argument is of course a red herring of woeful proportions. The cost of entry is not the issue: it's the affordability of what's inside.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 20, 2015)

I understand the 'its not community orientated enough for me' argument, but repeatedly saying 'they promised it would be a green oasis' is hardly Dylan goes electric


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I understand the 'its not community orientated enough for me' argument, but repeatedly saying 'they promised it would be a green oasis' is hardly Dylan goes electric


If it's of no interest to you, then please don't bother contributing any more pointless noise to the thread.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 20, 2015)

I didn't say I wasn't interested in it


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## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> The cost of entry is not the issue: it's the affordability of what's inside.



It doesn't seem to differ much in price from anywhere else in Brixton. 

In fact, the food places that moved the few feet into Pop from Station rd are charging the same as before, as far as I can tell. 

Just steer clear of the NZ wine!


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Exactly how many "miserable posters! have you had to listen to "carping on" about 'Bullingdon types' then? Could you list them all please. Ta.



A massive misquote there, but he means you mainly, and your insistence that Pop is so mightily exclusive due to the prices. Or are you really going to ask someone to quote where you've mentioned "Bullingdon types"?


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It doesn't seem to differ much in price from anywhere else in Brixton.


That very much depends on what you view as affordable. £5 pints and evenings chomping on pricey 'street food' may be cheap to you, but it's out of the reach of many. 

I do sometimes think that some people really have no understanding at all that some of their neighbours really can't afford to be part of this nu-Brixton drinking and grazing hedonistic dream - a dream personified by Pop Brixton.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> He means you mainly, and your insistence that Pop is so mightily exclusive due to the prices. Or are you really going to ask someone to quote where you've mentioned "Bullingdon types"?


I have made no mention of 'Bullingdon types' anywhere in this thread, or made any references any private public school dining clubs. Neither have I claimed that Pop is "mightily exclusive."

Please try to stick to the facts before sticking your oar in.


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## Winot (Jul 20, 2015)

Bullingdon types was CH1 I believe.

I know the Tories are trying to reinvent themselves as the party of the workers but it's a bit of a comedown if Cameron & Osborne's modern day equivalents are reduced to eating street food in a container park.


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I have made no mention of 'Bullingdon types' anywhere in this thread, or made any references any private public school dining clubs. Neither have I claimed that Pop is "mightily exclusive."



Nobody is directly quoting _you_ in either case. You see that, right?

They are metaphors for the way people been arguing on this thread. Accurate too.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Nobody is directly quoting _you_ in either case. You see that, right?
> 
> They are metaphors for the way people been arguing on this thread. Accurate too.


I'll be grateful if you stop trying to misrepresent me. Your 'metaphors' are simply lies.


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I'll be grateful if you stop trying to misrepresent me. Your 'metaphors' are simply lies.



Eh? 

You misrepresent Dearinger _massively_ at #2561, and I'm the liar?????


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Winot said:


> Bullingdon types was CH1 I believe.
> 
> I know the Tories are trying to reinvent themselves as the party of the workers but it's a bit of a comedown if Cameron & Osborne's modern day equivalents are reduced to eating street food in a container park.


That said, there's no shortage of well backed public schoolboys moving their money into Brixton these days - look no further than the property developing entrepreneur who heads up The Collective for proof of that.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Eh?
> 
> You misrepresent Dearinger _massively_ at #2561, and I'm the liar?????


I asked him a question. It didn't need your input. 

Please stop now.


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## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> The cost of entry is not the issue: it's the affordability of what's inside.


Dancefloor and DJ was entirely for free as far as I could see.


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I asked him a question.


You asked him a _loaded_ question which presupposed that he had said something which he hadn't.



> Please stop now.



Seriously? No criticism of your posts allowed????

Well I guess if you have a ban button you can do stuff like that.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Dancefloor and DJ was entirely for free as far as I could see.


Yes, that is correct. Well done. But that's hardly the point is it.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> You asked him a _loaded_ question which presupposed that he had said something which he hadn't.


He specifically mentioned something and I asked him to clarify. And he was quite clear in his claim about what the "miserable posters" had been adding. But I'll let him answer. No need for you to pipe up.


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## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> That very much depends on what you view as affordable. £5 pints and evenings chomping on pricey 'street food' may be cheap to you, but it's out of the reach of many.
> 
> I do sometimes think that some people really have no understanding at all that some of their neighbours really can't afford to be part of this nu-Brixton drinking and grazing hedonistic dream - a dream personified by Pop Brixton.



This is not about what I can afford, or my lack of understanding, it's whether the prices are in line with elsewhere in Brixton. 

And they seem to be.

ETA: as has been established, you can take in your own food.


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## deadringer (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Exactly how many "miserable posters! have you had to listen to "carping on" about 'Bullingdon types' then? Could you list them all please. Ta.
> 
> The entrance fee argument is of course a red herring of woeful proportions. The cost of entry is not the issue: it's the affordability of what's inside.



i think it's pretty obvious who the negative miserable posters on this topic are....feel free to re read the thread to find the 'Bullingdon types' comment, it's definitely there.

As for the affordability of what's inside, it's no more wildly expensive than a night out on the piss elsewhere. If you can afford to drink at Kaff, you can afford to drink here. Infact with a little ingenuity I'm sure if you could smuggle your own booze into pop if you were really hard up but wanted to go.

You don't like it, feel mislead, I get that. As I've said before, be angry with the council, take it up with them. Angrily posting here is not going to change anything or make you feel any better. As has been pointed out repeatedly, a large mixture of people are enjoying it for what it is.


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

> He specifically mentioned something and I asked him to clarify. And he was quite clear in his claim about what the "miserable posters" had been adding.



He was spot on about it.

You have been banging on about it excluding the poorer residents, and your overall tone has been that it's a facility primarily for wealthy non-Brixton residents.



deadringer said:


> It's getting pretty tedious listening to the miserable posters carping on about how it excludes 'the poor', making out its full of moneyed up 'Bullingdon types' when you need no more money to visit than the U75 approved  pubs and bars.



Which you translated as:



editor said:


> Exactly how many "miserable posters! have you had to listen to "carping on" about 'Bullingdon types' then? Could you list them all please. Ta.



See, he didn't say 'carping on about Bullingdon types', did he? That's you being naughty. What he actually said was "carping on about how it excludes the poor" (and that's you he's accurately referring to). He goes on to say "making out it's full of moneyed-up Bullingdon types" but not directly quoting. This refers to the non-Brixtonites, and a comment by someone else, which is also the thrust of many of your postings.

Regarding my responding to this, is there now a rule that we may only respond to posts directed at us?


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> This is not about what I can afford, or my lack of understanding, it's whether the prices are in line with elsewhere in Brixton.


In line with _your_ Brixton perhaps. But do you really think everyone here can live the same lifestyle as you?


leanderman said:


> ETA: as has been established, you can take in your own food.


Several signs say you can not bring in your own food and you certainly can't bring in your own drink.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> As for the affordability of what's inside, it's no more wildly expensive than a night out on the piss elsewhere. If you can afford to drink at Kaff, you can afford to drink here. Infact with a little ingenuity I'm sure if you could smuggle your own booze into pop if you were really hard up but wanted to go.


It was £3 a pint at Kaff on some nights - £2 for coffee - and for that you got to be in an actual bar with a table and chairs to work on and proper cutlery and glasses. The food was also remarkably good value, although I guess you're only bringing up Kaff because I personally liked the place. The Albert's already been mentioned. People love to make it personal here.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> You have been banging on about it excluding the poorer residents, and your overall tone has been that it's a facility primarily for wealthier non-Brixton residents.


It's certainly not aimed at its poorer residents, is it? And there's no doubt it's being marketed to tourists as well as locals. That's blatantly obvious.


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> It's certainly not aimed at its poorer residents, is it?



No. 

But feel free to just leave out of the quote the bit that highlights your misrepresentation of what was posted!


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> No.


So we're agreed. It's aimed at wealthier people. Now we're getting somewhere.


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## Winot (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Angrily posting here is not going to change anything or make you feel any better.



What?   Now you tell me.  I want my money back


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> So we're agreed. It's aimed at wealthier people. Now we're getting somewhere.



 You see, it's this dishonest debating style of yours that wins you so much support! Another nice deflection though. 

Wealthier than who?

Once again I refer you to post #2404.


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## deadringer (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, that is correct. Well done. But that's hardly the point is it.



It's exactly the point. If your hard up and want to go and join in the fun there is nothing to stop you drinking at home first, get a bit merry, then wander in for free and dance for free.


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## isvicthere? (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> You see, it's this dishonest debating style of yours that wins you so much support!
> 
> Wealthier than who?



How exactly is suggesting the glaringly obvious, that Pop Brixton is aimed at wealthier people (definition: people who can, and are prepared, to pay £7.50 for a glass of wine) "dishonest"?


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## ddraig (Jul 20, 2015)

bbbbb because lot's of people are wealthy nowadays and they are people too so should be allowed to have nice things without being made to feel bad about it!! the world is changing daddyo, pull your socks up and you might be able to spend such amounts without flinching!!


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## urbanspaceman (Jul 20, 2015)

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/...reclaimed-from-the-developers/8686188.article

Carl Tuner says in the AJ: "_we have been entangled in a mess precipitated by Network Rail’s plan to refurbish 30 arches which it is feared will lead to the loss of many businesses considered local institutions. Save Brixton Arches has been borne, along with Reclaim Brixton, small groups able to garner large local support through social media platforms. We may well ask ourselves from whom Brixton is being reclaimed for whom._"


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> How exactly is suggesting the glaringly obvious, that Pop Brixton is aimed at wealthier people (definition: people who can, and are prepared to pay £7.50 for a glass of wine) "dishonest"?



That wasn't the dishonest bit. The dishonest bit was the sarcastic suggestion that he and I were somehow 'in agreement and getting somewhere'.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 20, 2015)

urbanspaceman said:


> http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/...reclaimed-from-the-developers/8686188.article
> 
> Carl Tuner says in the AJ: "_we have been entangled in a mess precipitated by Network Rail’s plan to refurbish 30 arches which it is feared will lead to the loss of many businesses considered local institutions. Save Brixton Arches has been borne, along with Reclaim Brixton, small groups able to garner large local support through social media platforms. We may well ask ourselves from whom Brixton is being reclaimed for whom._"



83 quid to read that....


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## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> In line with _your_ Brixton perhaps. But do you really think everyone here can live the same lifestyle as you?
> Several signs say you can not bring in your own food and you certainly can't bring in your own drink.



No. Not my Brixton. Just Brixton. Station rd even. 

I'm glad you think I have something of a lifestyle though. 

I work late shifts and have young kids, so I go 'out out' once or twice a month! 

The signs are wrong.


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## deadringer (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> It's certainly not aimed at its poorer residents, is it? And there's no doubt it's being marketed to tourists as well as locals. That's blatantly obvious.



What businesses are aimed at the poor? The grotty fried chicken and chip places certainly are cheap but not exactly an appetising meal. A large doner kebab I struggle to find for under a fiver. In Wetherspoons  a lot of the mains are pushing towards £10. Eating and drinking out IS more expensive now than it was a few years ago unfortunately.


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## isvicthere? (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> What businesses are aimed at the poor? .


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## SpamMisery (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> It was £3 a pint at Kaff on some nights - £2 for coffee - and for that you got to be in an actual bar with a table and chairs to work on and proper cutlery and glasses.



Love it. We've had the same discussion about eating in the Village.



editor said:


> Perhaps you missed the bit about a PINT being included in the price and the fact that you'd be eating it sat down at a proper table in a comfortable and warm PUB with a plate and cutlery provided.....



Who knew cutlery was so important


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## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

My response to food prices in Pop on Saturday night was to exit the site, buy a portion of chips for £1 from the fried chicken shop on CHL, eat them walking along the street and return to Pop Brixton about 15 minutes later.

In retrospect I should have tested what would happen if I had tried to go back in with chips in hand.


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## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Eating and drinking out IS more expensive now than it was a few years ago unfortunately.



Yes. People struggle to bring their price expectations in line with long-term inflation. 

I keep getting outraged that meals don't cost the same as in the 90s


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## Rushy (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yes. People struggle to bring their price expectations in line with long-term inflation.
> 
> I keep getting outraged that meals don't cost the same as in the 90s


Indeed. Smile lovingly as nana slips you a fiver and tells you to take your girlfriend out somewhere special for dinner.


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## isvicthere? (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yes. People struggle to bring their price expectations in line with long-term inflation.
> 
> I keep getting outraged that meals don't cost the same as in the 90s


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> You see, it's this dishonest debating style of yours that wins you so much support! Another nice deflection though.


Me: It's certainly not aimed at its poorer residents, is it?
You: No
Me: So we're agreed. It's aimed at wealthier people.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yes. People struggle to bring their price expectations in line with long-term inflation.
> 
> I keep getting outraged that meals don't cost the same as in the 90s


Some people are struggling to pay the bills whatever their "expectations."

And here's some of the reasons why:


> Incomes in London are more unequal than in any other region with 16% of the population in the poorest tenth nationally and 17% in the richest tenth [--].





> The number of people in poverty in the social rented sector fell by 340,000 in the last ten years. But this has been more than offset by rising poverty in the private rented sector (up 460,000). At 39%, the private rented sector now has a larger share of people in poverty than either social rent or owner-occupation.





> In the three years to 2011/12, 2.1 million people in London were in poverty. This 28% poverty rate is seven percentage points higher than the rest of England
> http://www.londonspovertyprofile.org.uk/key-facts/overview-of-london-boroughs/


----------



## Winot (Jul 20, 2015)

Editor - your repetitive narrative that suggests that those who are not entirely anti-Pop are somehow oblivious to London poverty is offensive.


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## Ms T (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yes. People struggle to bring their price expectations in line with long-term inflation.
> 
> I keep getting outraged that meals don't cost the same as in the 90s


And yet want people to be paid a decent wage!


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Me: It's certainly not aimed at its poorer residents, is it?
> You: No
> Me: So we're agreed. It's aimed at wealthier people.



LOL!

Me: 'You're misrepresenting another poster'
You: "It's not aimed at poorer residents" <completely evading the misrepresentation issue>
Me: No. But feel free to just leave out of the quote the bit that highlights your misrepresentation of what was posted.
You: <selectively quoting the "no" and swerving the main point> 'We're in agreement ....'



Dishonest. And slippery.

And again, #2404 deals with your wider point.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> LOL!
> 
> Me: 'You're misrepresenting another poster'
> You: "It's not aimed at poorer residents" <completely evading the misrepresentation issue>
> ...


I think I'll just have to put you on ignore for a bit because I can't keep up with your confused gibberish, Big Personal Beef and personal insults. It's certainly not adding anything useful to the thread.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I think I'll just have to put you on ignore for a bit because I can't keep up with your confused gibberish, Big Personal Beef and personal insults. It's certainly not adding anything useful to the thread.



Well whilst I've caught you out being a slippery, slidey, lubricated old eel, there've been no personal insults from me. Good solution though.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Winot said:


> Editor - your repetitive narrative that suggests that those who are not entirely anti-Pop are somehow oblivious to London poverty is offensive.


Sorry you think that, but that's how it comes across to me sometimes (notwithstanding the way you've twisted it into some sort of 'anti-Pop' rhetoric, which it is not. I meant in general, as can be seen in the context of the conversation).


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> It's aimed at wealthier people.



Therefore you are suggesting the the people who frequent Pop are wealthy. Have you done a survey to back up this claim? Hazard a guess to your average Pop goers salary? 30k? 50k? 200k? I'd agree that 7.50 is darn expensive for a glass of wine, but recently I paid near a tenner for a pint and a glass of wine in an average London pub. A large bottle of Peroni in a well known pizza chain costs near £7, yet I've never heard the suggestion that it aimed at wealthy people.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I'd agree that 7.50 is darn expensive for a glass of wine ....


Is a glass of wine £7.50 at all of the outlets in Pop, or just one in particular?


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Therefore you are suggesting the the people who frequent Pop are wealthy.


No, I'm suggesting that the whole Pop Brixton concept is not aimed at the area's poorest residents. Do you disagree?


----------



## discobastard (Jul 20, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Is a glass of wine £7.50 at all of the outlets in Pop, or just one in particular?


Wine is about £5 a glass at Donostia.

Bottles at NZ Cellar start at £9.90.


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## cuppa tee (Jul 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> A large bottle of Peroni in a well known pizza chain costs near £7, yet I've never heard the suggestion that it aimed at wealthy people.


did you mean pizza express.......?

http://www.dbg.co.uk/case-studies/Pizza_Express_Case_study.pdf


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## 299 old timer (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> No, I'm suggesting that the whole Pop Brixton concept is not aimed at the area's poorest residents. Do you disagree?



What you are suggesting is that Pop's pricing will exclude the area's poorest residents, because they can't afford it. What I am asking you is do you have a similar outlook to places like Pizza Express, Nandos etc? No one claims those chains are the haunt of wealthy people. Just to clarify, in your opinion do those chains exlude the poorest residents also?


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## 299 old timer (Jul 20, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> did you mean pizza express.......?
> 
> http://www.dbg.co.uk/case-studies/Pizza_Express_Case_study.pdf
> http://www.dbg.co.uk/case-studies/Pizza_Express_Case_study.pdf



Yes.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Yes.


according to the PDF I linked to, pizza express customers are "typically in the ABC1 demographic"


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Wine is about £5 a glass at Donostia.
> 
> Bottles at NZ Cellar start at £9.90.



So not unreasonable for London then.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> What you are suggesting is that Pop's pricing will exclude the area's poorest residents, because they can't afford it. What I am asking you is do you have a similar outlook to places like Pizza Express, Nandos etc? No one claims those chains are the haunt of wealthy people. Just to clarify, in your opinion do those chains exlude the poorest residents also?


The bit you appear to be singularly unable to grasp here is that the problem I have with Pop Brixton is that it was sold as a horticulturally themed enterprise for the local community. And then we got something completely different.

Pizza Express doesn't claim to be a community-led green oasis and it wasn't set up by Lambeth Council, so why should I give a fuck about what they charge for anything?


----------



## deadringer (Jul 20, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Wine is about £5 a glass at Donostia.
> 
> Bottles at NZ Cellar start at £9.90.



£10 for a bottle of wine out and about is amazing value IMO


----------



## deadringer (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> The bit you appear to be singularly unable to grasp here is that the problem I have with Pop Brixton is that it was sold as a horticulturally themed enterprise for the local community. And then we got something completely different.
> 
> Pizza Express doesn't claim to be a community-led green oasis and it wasn't set up by Lambeth Council, so why should I give a fuck about what they charge for anything?



Nice wriggling. 

So can we agree now that 'the poor' are not excluded from Pop, there is a wide variety of prices to suit all pockets, and it being free entry and being free to dance actually makes it a pretty inclusive place for all the community to come and be able to enjoy?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Nice wriggling.
> 
> So can we agree now that 'the poor' are not excluded from Pop, there is a wide variety of prices to suit all pockets, and it being free entry and being free to dance actually makes it a pretty inclusive place for all the community to come and be able to enjoy?


you gotta admit Ed, it's the logical conclusion. i'd rather be captured by ISIS than go there, but i would think most people would be welcome there and those that wouldn't are probably not welcome in most places, iyswim.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> £10 for a bottle of wine out and about is amazing value IMO



He didn't say whether it was any cop, mind.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Nice wriggling.


You can't actually counter the fact that a comparison with Pizza Express is totally irrelevant, so you try and dismiss the argument as 'wriggling'. Very persuasive.


deadringer said:


> So can we agree now that 'the poor' are not excluded from Pop, there is a wide variety of prices to suit all pockets, and it being free entry and being free to dance actually makes it a pretty inclusive place for all the community to come and be able to enjoy?


There is nothing particularly cheap there - beer and food is all way more expensive than places people on low budgets would eat (you do realise that people on low budgets don't actually eat out in trendy places that often, yes?) and the music is aimed at a very narrow demographic indeed, so it's is hardly some wonderful example of a free community resource.

It's a groovy place aimed at trendy people with lots of disposable income to hang out in. Which is normally all fine and dandy by me, except this is a Lambeth backed scheme designed to be a green community resource, not a carbon copy of something that would fit in nicely in Shoreditch.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> you gotta admit Ed, it's the logical conclusion. i'd rather be captured by ISIS than go there, but i would think most people would be welcome there and those that wouldn't are probably not welcome in most places, iyswim.


Come and have a talk to some of the people on my estate and see what they say.

What do you mean by people who are "probably not welcome in most places"


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> £10 for a bottle of wine out and about is amazing value IMO


It's hardly that amazing. Still, if standing up with a bottle is your thing - enjoy!


----------



## deadringer (Jul 20, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> He didn't say whether it was any cop, mind.



If it's cold and wet that'll do for me!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> the music is aimed at a very narrow demographic indeed, so it's is hardly some wonderful example of a free community resource.


This is a new one. What is the music they are playing that is aimed at a very narrow demographic?


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## Winot (Jul 20, 2015)

Went there tonight. Great Ghanaian food. Was stuffed for £11. Obviously that's not cheap, but for the quality it was good value.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

Winot said:


> Went there tonight. Great Ghanaian food. Was stuffed for £11. Obviously that's not cheap, but for the quality it was good value.



What did you get for £11?


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

teuchter said:


> This is a new one. What is the music they are playing that is aimed at a very narrow demographic?


I know you like to argue about just about anything - because picking fights with me is pretty much your raison d'être here -  but I'm sure even you are going to have trouble constructing a convincing argument that loud house music somehow appeals to the vast majority of local residents.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> I know you like to argue about just about anything - because picking fights with me is pretty much your raison d'être here -  but I'm sure even you are going to have trouble constructing a convincing argument that loud house music somehow appeals to the vast majority of local residents.


I'd say house is about as mainstream as you can go for a DJ set. 

What would you suggest as a more acceptable alternative?


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I'd say house is about as mainstream as you can go for a DJ set.
> 
> What would you suggest as a more acceptable alternative?


For the narrow demographic that is there, perhaps.

But this is supposed to be a Brixton community resource. What percentage of the local community do you think want to be in a loud, trendy, 'vibrant' container park stuffed full of people mainly centred around the same demographic listening to house music, where the only drink options are expensive beer and wine?


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## Lucy Fur (Jul 20, 2015)

If we are truly going to start considering a free evening of house music as a demonstration of an active community resourse, then this whole debate is as fucked as the original proposals were. Nobody is denying that some people will enjoy that, but it is absoluely not of any long term benefit to the community, and to pretend that it is on an argument that seems to be basically, I like it, so yes its a good thing is just fucking ridiculous.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> If we are truly going to start considering a free evening of house music as a demonstration of an active community resourse, then this whole debate is as fucked as the original proposals were. Nobody is denying that some people will enjoy that, but it is absoluely not of any long term benefit to the community, and to pretend that it is on an argument that seems to be basically, I like it, so yes its a good thing is just fucking ridiculous.



Yep. The most benefit would come from the mooted 200 jobs.


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## ddraig (Jul 20, 2015)

.


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## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> If we are truly going to start considering a free evening of house music as a demonstration of an active community resourse, then this whole debate is as fucked as the original proposals were. Nobody is denying that some people will enjoy that, but it is absoluely not of any long term benefit to the community, and to pretend that it is on an argument that seems to be basically, I like it, so yes its a good thing is just fucking ridiculous.


Yep. Spot on.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yep. The most benefit would come from the mooted 200 jobs.


Mainly temporary ones, presumably, given that the place isn't supposed to be staying around that long. 

Be interesting to see how many actual new jobs materialise too.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 20, 2015)

Winot said:


> Went there tonight. Great Ghanaian food. Was stuffed for £11. Obviously that's not cheap, but for the quality it was good value.


Might try that out for lunch tomorrow. I keep meaning to.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> If we are truly going to start considering a free evening of house music as a demonstration of an active community resourse, then this whole debate is as fucked as the original proposals were. Nobody is denying that some people will enjoy that, but it is absoluely not of any long term benefit to the community, *and to pretend that it is on an argument that seems to be basically, I like it, so yes its a good thing is just fucking ridiculous.*



I'm struggling to find where anyone has made that argument - can you help me out?


----------



## boohoo (Jul 20, 2015)

The music shouldn't really matter - I've never left a pub because the music wasn't aimed at my demographic.

I went to pop - it wasn't for me. Does it benefit the community? Well, which one are we talking about? Nothing for local families there. Not gonna be able to hang out with the 3 year old here. And my Christian and Muslims friends are unlikely to be seeking out this space to hang out at. Probably not really a place for the elderly. Disabled access to the higher levels of the space?

On the money side of things, if you don't have money for fast food, then even the cheap places are off limits - like the greasy spoons and mcDonalds.  (Maybe a bag of chips for a £1 is acceptable).


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Mainly temporary ones, presumably, given that the place isn't supposed to be staying around that long.
> 
> Be interesting to see how many actual new jobs materialise too.



exactly, and if the debate could return to this aspect, maybe there will be more chance of the next stages of the project being closer to the original ethos of the thing.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 20, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I'm struggling to find where anyone has made that argument - can you help me out?


throughout this discussion it strikes me that there have been two conversations going on.
1. this project does not feel like its going to live up to the original ethos of the proposals and
2. whatever, dont be down on it, i quite like it there. and therefore its a good thing.
are you really suggesting you cant see this.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> throughout this discussion it strikes me that there have been two conversations going on.
> 1. this project does not feel like its going to live up to the original ethos of the proposals and
> 2. whatever, dont be down on it, i quite like it there. and therefore its a good thing.
> are you really suggesting you cant see this.


I can't see anyone trying to argue that it's of long term benefit to the community simply because they themselves like it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2015)

T & P said:


> I would describe a place where you can relax and dance and have a good time for free in the middle of a busy town centre as an oasis quite separate to the hustle and bustle of city life, yes. Not quite green yet, but that is to come soon. So what exactly is the problem?


what, there's free drinks?


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I can't see anyone trying to argue that it's of long term benefit to the community simply because they themselves like it.


Reading what he actually wrote in point #2 may be beneficial here.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Reading what he actually wrote in point #2 may be beneficial here.


Point #2 looks to me like an attempt to water down the original claim which is what I was questioning.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 20, 2015)

deadringer said:


> You don't like it, feel mislead, I get that. As I've said before, be angry with the council, take it up with them. Angrily posting here is not going to change anything or make you feel any better. As has been pointed out repeatedly, a large mixture of people are enjoying it for what it is.



And a large mixture of people do not like it. As has also been pointed out repeatedly. 

Angry posting here on subjects does make me feel better. And BTW I am also someone who does take up Brixton issues with the Council. 

A suggestion no one posts up about Pop. Either for or against.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yep. The most benefit would come from the mooted 200 jobs.



The operative word being "mooted".
Ever noticed how reality generally bears a harvest much smaller than predicted?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> Mainly temporary ones, presumably, given that the place isn't supposed to be staying around that long.
> 
> Be interesting to see how many actual new jobs materialise too.



It's *always* interesting to see, but rarely satisfying.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> And a large mixture of people do not like it. As has also been pointed out repeatedly.


That might not be much of an issue if it was a private business. But it's not. It's something that Lambeth sold to the community as being as a community of "collective architects, guerrilla gardeners, cooks and food producers" and a "place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through making, growing, eating and performance."

And whatever happened to this: “a series of Poly-Tunnels provide housing for plants and edibles to grow in a protected and controlled environment. Here you will able to eat as food grows around you."


----------



## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> throughout this discussion it strikes me that there have been two conversations going on.
> 1. this project does not feel like its going to live up to the original ethos of the proposals and
> 2. whatever, dont be down on it, i quite like it there. and therefore its a good thing.
> are you really suggesting you cant see this.



In my case: 'I don't much like it, therefore it is a good thing.'


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> bbbbb because lot's of people are wealthy nowadays and they are people too so should be allowed to have nice things without being made to feel bad about it!! the world is changing daddyo, pull your socks up and you might be able to spend such amounts without flinching!!



If you weren't an "enemy of change"?


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## leanderman (Jul 20, 2015)

editor said:


> That might not be much of an issue if it was a private business. But it's not. It's something that Lambeth sold to the community as being as a community of "collective architects, guerrilla gardeners, cooks and food producers" and a "place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through making, growing, eating and performance."
> 
> And whatever happened to this: “a series of Poly-Tunnels provide housing for plants and edibles to grow in a protected and controlled environment. Here you will able to eat as food grows around you."



I might offer my services as a guerrilla gardener. 

Otherwise, it sounds pretty much like what we have now: cooks, architects, eating, making, performance, a poly-tunnel.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Otherwise, it sounds pretty much like what we have now: cooks, architects, eating, making, performance, a poly-tunnel.


Except it didn't say "_a_" poly tunnel. It said a _SERIES of Poly-Tunnels_. How you have failed to read those words is quite beyond me.


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## Spymaster (Jul 20, 2015)

Not. Enough. Poly-tunnels.


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## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2015)

urbanspaceman said:


> http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/...reclaimed-from-the-developers/8686188.article
> 
> Carl Tuner says in the AJ: "_we have been entangled in a mess precipitated by Network Rail’s plan to refurbish 30 arches which it is feared will lead to the loss of many businesses considered local institutions. Save Brixton Arches has been borne, along with Reclaim Brixton, small groups able to garner large local support through social media platforms. We may well ask ourselves from whom Brixton is being reclaimed for whom._"



He does skip the fact that his project has been criticised.

In the AJ a debate has recently started about the role of architects. ASH Architects 4 Social Housing started this by publicly criticising architects who work on "regeneration" schemes such as at Elephant and Castle where social element is diluted. The usual things architects say is that they are just doing there job.

This has started a debate in the architectural profession on the role of architects in society.

I have posted up about this elsewhere.

What he says is most relevant to Loughborough Junction. As LJ is the next in line after Brixton is finished off.



> ‘Architects are ideally trained to lead this debate on the evolution of cities. It is up to us to question whether development is appropriate in scale and character, and yes sometimes that maybe doing nothing is the right thing to do.’



Do not agree that architects are ideally trained for this. Not to lead debate. They might think they are.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 21, 2015)

Winot said:


> Bullingdon types was CH1 I believe.
> I know the Tories are trying to reinvent themselves as the party of the workers but it's a bit of a comedown if Cameron & Osborne's modern day equivalents are reduced to eating street food in a container park.


This was hyperbole - a valid rhetorical technique (according to Wikipedia)!


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## leanderman (Jul 21, 2015)

editor said:


> Except it didn't say "_a_" poly tunnel. It said a _SERIES of Poly-Tunnels_. How you have failed to read those words is quite beyond me.



The original proposal picture you posted (#2551) appears to show one poly-tunnel, enclosing a food seating area and a very limited amount of growing.

Which is what Pop has delivered.


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## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The original proposal picture you posted (#2551) appears to show one poly-tunnel, enclosing a food seating area and a very limited amount of growing.
> 
> Which is what Pop has delivered.



There was going to be a lot of growing areas when I look at the photo. On the roof spaces with stairs to reach them. Looks to me like one large poly tunnel with food growing inside. Also smaller one ( horticulture). So big emphasis of growing food. That was to be used in the canteen.

The makerspace has gone to be replaced by the Impact Hub.

So Pop has not delivered this.


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## leanderman (Jul 21, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> There was going to be a lot of growing areas when I look at the photo. On the roof spaces with stairs to reach them. Looks to me like one large poly tunnel with food growing inside. Also smaller one ( horticulture). So big emphasis of growing food. That was to be used in the canteen.
> 
> The makerspace has gone to be replaced by the Impact Hub.
> 
> So Pop has not delivered this.




Looks like a few planters to me!

I have no idea what a makerspace is, or an impact hub.


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## editor (Jul 21, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The original proposal picture you posted (#2551) appears to show one poly-tunnel, enclosing a food seating area and a very limited amount of growing.
> 
> Which is what Pop has delivered.


I quoted directly from their publicity material. It said a _series_ of poly tunnels.

This was how it was supposed to look at the beginning:






[--]

And then it went like this:













This one went overboard with the horticultural connections.






Here's a more relaxed and far less cramped space being presented:






And then the  later Pop renderings - with the poly tunnel now noticeably absent - still show a far more green central space (now occupied by drinkers):



I don't think much food to eat is being grown here:


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## Winot (Jul 21, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Not. Enough. Poly-tunnels.


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## Winot (Jul 21, 2015)

leanderman said:


> What did you get for £11?



There were 3 of us and we shared lamb cutlets, beef kebabs, mackerel, plantain stew, fried plantain and a rice dish. There's a chicken dish too but they were out of that.


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## boohoo (Jul 21, 2015)

Whatever it is now and is going to remain feels like a distraction from where we, who are angry, should be directing our energy. Pop is done and all the posts on a bulletin board aren't going to change things but there are campaigns, issues happening now. How can we direct our energies at those issues where there might be a possibility of changing things. I know people here do bits and pieces but we need more of that and less of the bunfights.


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## BigMoaner (Jul 21, 2015)

Winot said:


> There were 3 of us and we shared lamb cutlets, beef kebabs, mackerel, plantain stew, fried plantain and a rice dish. There's a chicken dish too but they were out of that.


i'd ruin that, destroy it.


editor said:


> Come and have a talk to some of the people on my estate and see what they say.
> 
> What do you mean by people who are "probably not welcome in most places"



larger louts, brawlers, crack dealers, football firms, etc


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## BigMoaner (Jul 21, 2015)

fascinating thought (imo) - what will brixton look like in 30 years time? 

will it still be suffering the after shocks of the closure of Speedy Noodles?


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## Rushy (Jul 21, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> fascinating thought (imo) - what will brixton look like in 30 years time?


You have not been paying attention:


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## BigMoaner (Jul 21, 2015)

speaking of speedy noodles, where i practically lived for a few years, that really WAS reping the whole of brixton if i remember correctly. groups of yuppies, rich old blokes with quaffed grey hair and fat fingers, rude boys, students, wankers, families, etc. it was cheap, but not bottom line cheap either. i guess just quick, half decent food at a half decent price appeals to the masses.


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## brixtonblade (Jul 21, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> speaking of speedy noodles, where i practically lived for a few years, that really WAS reping the whole of brixton if i remember correctly. groups of yuppies, rich old blokes with quaffed grey hair and fat fingers, rude boys, students, wankers, families, etc. it was cheap, but not bottom line cheap either. i guess just quick, half decent food at a half decent price appeals to the masses.


Whenever I went I got ill

I went about once a week 

Being ill surely had nothing to do with going to the pub before going to speedy noodles


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## Rushy (Jul 21, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Whenever I went I got ill
> 
> I went about once a week
> 
> Being ill surely had nothing to do with going to the pub before going to speedy noodles


Speedy Noodle was classy compared with Kings Rice & Spice. Thankfully Speedy never left the kitchen counter covered in stains in the morning.

I seem to remember someone in the forces randomly telling me that that Kings was closed down because it was funding Al Qaeda.


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## han (Jul 21, 2015)

I think cheapness is really the only thing Speedy Noodle had going for it. I remember going there once and the dish I had was basically like a load of snot with rubbery chicken floating in it. Never again...


----------



## Rushy (Jul 21, 2015)

han said:


> I  the dish I had was basically like a load of snot with rubbery chicken floating in it


 Thanks for that glorious image. I feel quite queasy now.


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## Spymaster (Jul 21, 2015)

han said:


> I remember going there once and the dish I had was basically like a load of snot with rubbery chicken floating in it. Never again...



 A lot of Chinese style soups seem to manage that kind of texture, in fairness. 

Tasty though!


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## Crispy (Jul 21, 2015)

Wise man sticks to the vegetable dishes in Speedy Noodle.


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## steeeve (Jul 21, 2015)

Went for the second time last night, I didn't like it the first time on a Saturday but it was quite pleasant last night. Good mix of people, plenty of cheap food for around a fiver (comparible to KFC/Maccers/BK?) and it's looking much greener though there's still nothing on the container roofs. Beer was on the expensive side at £5 a pint but was 'craft' and really nice.


----------



## newbie (Jul 21, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> If we are truly going to start considering a free evening of house music as a demonstration of an active community resourse, then this whole debate is as fucked as the original proposals were. Nobody is denying that some people will enjoy that, but it is absoluely not of any long term benefit to the community, and to pretend that it is on an argument that seems to be basically, I like it, so yes its a good thing is just fucking ridiculous.


well yes, you can extend that argument to the whole central Brixton night economy.  It would be hard to pretend that it's of much benefit to the great swathes of the local population who make little or no use of it and feel somewhat excluded by it.  Obviously there's money coming in to the area and the loose change must trickle down-  it provides some work for locals with stomachs strong enough to do the cleaning, security, cab driving, hustling & dealing and the other high quality career options on offer. Most people can't/won't handle that, and don't move in circles where they'd hear of such openings, so many of the jobs go to transients who do find the Brixton buzz attractive.  I'd suggest few local parents actively want that as a predominant local employment model for their kids to aspire towards.

Otherwise the night economy seems to have produced very little in the way of long term benefit but has been a major contributor to much of what's problematic. The policy decisions behind deploying the economic power wielded by a rather narrow range of people, with whom it's very popular, has helped push housing costs to stratospheric levels, squeezed out useful retail and almost all vestiges of light industrial, left the market ever more moribund and caused most people to hurry home from the tube doing their absolute best to avoid all the revelers rather than join in.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Whatever it is now and is going to remain feels like a distraction from where we, who are angry, should be directing our energy. Pop is done and all the posts on a bulletin board aren't going to change things but there are campaigns, issues happening now. How can we direct our energies at those issues where there might be a possibility of changing things. I know people here do bits and pieces but we need more of that and less of the bunfights.


does that go for destroyed murals too?
"ah well, it's done now, no point being annoyed about it!"


----------



## Ms T (Jul 21, 2015)

I saw that there were courgettes and chard growing outside - I was half tempted to steal some of the courgette flowers so I could stuff and deep-fry them.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 21, 2015)

ddraig said:


> does that go for destroyed murals too?
> "ah well, it's done now, no point being annoyed about it!"



To some extent yes. There is only so much that can be done. Once it's gone it's hard to find the money to put the original piece back in it's place.

And at the moment, in the big scheme of things, worrying about murals feels self indulgent when the hardest up are being attacked by the current government.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> To some extent yes. There is only so much that can be done. Once it's gone it's hard to find the money to put the original piece back in it's place.
> 
> And at the moment, in the big scheme of things, worrying about murals feels self indulgent when the hardest up are being attacked by the current government.



Good post.

My thoughts on Pop now are: It is here. People have invested in it (not just developers, but the people operating from those units too) and I don't wish failure upon them. If they can succeed at the thing they have set out to do, then good, I'm ok with that. This is no different to anyone opening any business anywhere in any place. There is nothing morally wrong with a posh fish and chips or cheese or champagne. They might represent a morally suspect culture, but they are not morally suspect just because they exist and are available in Brixton. 

All the social/ecomonic stuff gets lost if we just rally against someone opening a business in a retail park (which is what pop is).

The rent hikes and pricing people out of the area is a bigger deal, and all the sidetracking that with silly 'I hate hipsters' shit and 'artisanal bread is evil' and 'this burger is a social pariah' achieves nothing.

I do hate hipsters....well....I hate pink shorts and daft beards....but I do realise that all that is a pretty shallow place to stake my my claim. I think posh bread and burgers are a scam....I find it all daft and silly and don't get why people pay good money for shit cider...or wait in a queue for an hour to eat a fish finger sandwich...but they do and will. It's not that important compared to a family unable to pay their rent any longer, or not having a local and affordable shop they can walk to for groceries.

Do I want people to succeed at a business they have worked hard at? Yes.

Do I want people who have lived and been part of a local area to be able to stay there until they decide otherwise? Yes.

I am sad so much of what I had come to know as Brixton is vanishing, but I was sad when Brady's went and when Taco Joes went and I will be miserable when The Canterbury closes its doors. If they ever kill the Nuclear Dawn mural I will feel forever upset.

Brixton will survive though. Like we all do when faced with tough times, change and dilemma.


----------



## Winot (Jul 21, 2015)

Nanker Phelge you are my new U75 hero.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 21, 2015)

Winot said:


> Nanker Phelge you are my new U75 hero.



Don't be daft.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> Whatever it is now and is going to remain feels like a distraction from where we, who are angry, should be directing our energy. Pop is done and all the posts on a bulletin board aren't going to change things but there are campaigns, issues happening now. How can we direct our energies at those issues where there might be a possibility of changing things. I know people here do bits and pieces but we need more of that and less of the bunfights.



This is however part of the problem. As you know I am someone who takes part in Council consultations and tries to have a constructive attitude.  I feel what has happened on this meanwhile site is symptomatic of what happens in other areas. I feel that local residents who make the effort to comment online, go to consultation events or otherwise make informed comments get treated with a take it or leave it attitude from the Council.

So when I follow the sorry tale of this meanwhile use I find it really frustrating. What am I supposed to do? Give up and not go to any more Council "consultations". Take myself off the Future Brixton email list?

Another example is the Brixton Central Masterplan consultations I took part in. And looked what happened to that.

On a different note the energy could be directed to support the threatened shops in the arches.

I would like to know which posters here on this thread support the Save Our Shops campaign. If "we" are to direct our energies I would like to know what side posters are on in this important issue.

Perhaps bunfights do not help. So the Save Our Shops campaign is an issue thats clear cut. So which side are you on posters?


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is however part of the problem. As you know I am someone who takes part in Council consultations and tries to have a constructive attitude.  I feel what has happened on this meanwhile site is symptomatic of what happens in other areas. I feel that local residents who make the effort to comment online, go to consultation events or otherwise make informed comments get treated with a take it or leave it attitude from the Council.
> 
> So when I follow the sorry tale of this meanwhile use I find it really frustrating. What am I supposed to do? Give up and not go to any more Council "consultations". Take myself off the Future Brixton email list?


Well, that's the crux of the issue and why I feel it's important to keep going on about it. There seems to be some sort of apathetic attitude amongst some that we should just shrug our shoulders and accept whatever the 'co-operative' council does, even when they're clearly ignoring consultations or imposing new things on people that were never discussed (see: Grow Brixton -> Pop Brixton).


Gramsci said:


> I would like to know which posters here on this thread support the Save Our Shops campaign.


It easy to post up words, but real life support is what's needed. I don't think barely any posters from here turned out for the recent Cressingham Gardens protest and that's a community that really needs support.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 21, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is however part of the problem. As you know I am someone who takes part in Council consultations and tries to have a constructive attitude.  I feel what has happened on this meanwhile site is symptomatic of what happens in other areas. I feel that local residents who make the effort to comment online, go to consultation events or otherwise make informed comments get treated with a take it or leave it attitude from the Council.
> 
> So when I follow the sorry tale of this meanwhile use I find it really frustrating. What am I supposed to do? Give up and not go to any more Council "consultations". Take myself off the Future Brixton email list?
> 
> Another example is the Brixton Central Masterplan consultations I took part in. And looked what happened to that.



So is there a way to challenge consultations? Are there other bodies who can do consultations which aren't so weighted to Lambeth's intentions? That aren't stuck in a back room at an inconvenient time? (can funds be raised for something like this?)

The last consultation I filled in  (which was the libraries, parks one).- the questionnaire had lots of open ended question. The document about proposed changes was huge. If response was low it would be because people struggled to have time and energy to read the document and then fill in open ended questions.

With so many estates having the threat of development hanging over their heads (http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/housing/regeneration/estate-regeneration-in-lambeth-guide), can the experiences at Cressingham come into play?

We do need people to keep attending meetings, making noise and protesting as well as finding ways to meet the needs of those affected by the big changes happening. We can all have different roles to play - whether it's attending a protest or helping at the food bank or fundraising or spreading the word about a campaign or telling people what is happening and encouraging them to get involved.


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## cuppa tee (Jul 21, 2015)

editor said:


> It easy to post up words, but real life support is what's needed. I don't think barely any posters from here turned out for the recent Cressingham Gardens protest and that's a community that really needs support.


true words however it is difficult for those in situations irl where we can't be at these type of events because of other commitments, but raising awareness on social media was partly responsible for the huge turn out at reclaim and the petition to save the arches meant that the council and network rail have not had an easy ride

anyway a bit of pop news.........

the craft ale outlet servicing popbrixton is called the brixton port authority
https://mobile.twitter.com/brixtonport
which kind of sounds all very local
but in fact it is owned by a pub chain known as parched pubs
http://www.parchedpubs.co.uk


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 21, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> anyway a bit of pop news.........
> 
> the craft ale outlet servicing popbrixton is called the brixton port authority
> https://mobile.twitter.com/brixtonport
> ...



With four pubs: two in Borough, one in Peckham and one in Streatham, I'd call that local


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> With four pubs: two in Borough, one in Peckham and one in Streatham, I'd call that local


you are entitled to your opinion


----------



## leanderman (Jul 21, 2015)

Have we established whether the courgettes and chard (#2680) are local?


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> With four pubs: two in Borough, one in Peckham and one in Streatham, I'd call that local


But a pub chain nonetheless, not a start-up, and a chain with only one of their pubs in Lambeth.  So not quite on message with Pop's own guff:


> Pop Brixton is a pioneering new space created with the local community in mind to showcase the best and most exciting independent start-ups and businesses from Brixton and Lambeth, where they can share space, skills and ideas.


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Have we established whether the courgettes and chard (#2680) are local?


Gosh, these sneery comments are so funny.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 21, 2015)

editor said:


> But a pub chain nonetheless, not a start-up, and a chain with only one of their pubs in Lambeth.  So not quite on message with Pop's own guff:



Fine by me ￼


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> With four pubs: two in Borough, one in Peckham and one in Streatham, I'd call that local


oops we forgot the brasserie in borough 
http://edwinsborough.co.uk


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> And at the moment, in the big scheme of things, worrying about murals feels self indulgent when the hardest up are being attacked by the current government.



I don't think that worrying about murals is at all self-indulgent. Some of us "hardest up" people actually see them and other local public art as something that brightens our day. Don't under-estimate the effect they have.


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fine by me ￼


So its fine by you if Lambeth don't deliver on their own promises?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 21, 2015)

Yup


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fine by me ￼


and the office in weybridge
https://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/parched


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fine by me ￼



Have you decided yet whether you support the Save Our Shops campaign?


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 21, 2015)

Nope


----------



## boohoo (Jul 21, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't think that worrying about murals is at all self-indulgent. Some of us "hardest up" people actually see them and other local public art as something that brightens our day. Don't under-estimate the effect they have.



I would hate to see them disappear - and particularly the more political or community pieces. I think public art and heritage are incredibly important but I feel that at the moment attention needs to be on finding ways to support people who are struggling to meet their basic needs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Good post.
> 
> My thoughts on Pop now are: It is here. People have invested in it (not just developers, but the people operating from those units too) and I don't wish failure upon them. If they can succeed at the thing they have set out to do, then good, I'm ok with that. This is no different to anyone opening any business anywhere in any place. There is nothing morally wrong with a posh fish and chips or cheese or champagne. They might represent a morally suspect culture, but they are not morally suspect just because they exist and are available in Brixton.
> 
> ...



See, I've got nothing against "artisanal bread", French cheese or fizzy French wine, or "posh" burgers etc etc. I'm quite fond of sourdough, and bow to no-one in my enjoyment of a nice drippy Brie. What I dislike is the pricing. Despite what some posters on here bleat, the pricing *does* exclude, and in a way that makes very clear to both those that can afford, and those that can't, their perceived place in the world.


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I would hate to see them disappear - and particularly the more political or community pieces. I think public art and heritage are incredibly important but I feel that at the moment attention needs to be on finding ways to support people who are struggling to meet their basic needs.


Worth reposting:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I would hate to see them disappear - and particularly the more political or community pieces. I think public art and heritage are incredibly important but I feel that at the moment attention needs to be on finding ways to support people who are struggling to meet their basic needs.



I can't remember which pre-war German cultural commentator it was who said this, but with reference to Nazism ending mass unemployment a remark was made about how feeding the stomach was good, but that the soul needs feeding too.


----------



## boohoo (Jul 21, 2015)

editor said:


> Worth reposting:



Worrying cuts of access to the arts happening in colleges at the moment. Hackney has cut much of its art department.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 21, 2015)

editor said:


> Gosh, these sneery comments are so funny.



You're such a charmer!


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Nope



I thought you would say that you do not support the shops under threat in that arches.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 21, 2015)

Why?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I would hate to see them disappear - and particularly the more political or community pieces. I think public art and heritage are incredibly important but I feel that at the moment attention needs to be on finding ways to support people who are struggling to meet their basic needs.



I think the work you do re murals is important. Even in times of economic distress.

Culture is as important as basic needs. Even during WW2 when there was rationing culture was promoted. The same goes just after the war when the Arts Council was set up.

Also culture in the wider sense of what kind of society we want to live in.

The late 70s and early 80s when the murals around Brixton were painted were times of economic turmoil. They were political and controversial interventions in the public sphere.

Its more the pity that there is not more of that now. Now its a bland business park for the 21st C instead.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Why?



Going on what you said previously about it.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 21, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I feel what has happened on this meanwhile site is symptomatic of what happens in other areas. I feel that local residents who make the effort to comment online, go to consultation events or otherwise make informed comments get treated with a take it or leave it attitude from the Council



Remember what Jacko said?

"Regeneration is often seen through the eyes of cynics who are quick to criticise ‘gentrification’ but ignore the benefits. If ‘gentrification’ means cleaner streets and safer estates then I’m all for it. But, there is a deafening silence from those who stand to benefit most."


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 21, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Going on what you said previously about it.



Fair enough. I don't remember giving a firm opinion either way


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 21, 2015)

perhaps its time to split this thread (or start a new one) into:
a) those that are enjoying the new retail park, Pop Brixton, and all its foody wonders thus far. And nothing wrong at all with that, if thats your thing, and 

b)those that are concerned that the remaing sections of the thing will not live up to expectations in terms of the original ethos, and what we might be able to do about applying pressure.

hopefully that way we can get out of this seemingly perpetual cycle. whereby the interests of one opinion group are bogged down in the interests of the other. and i imply no hierachy there, just to be absolutely clear.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 21, 2015)

You seem to think these two "opinion groups" are mutually exclusive.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 21, 2015)

Good idea. How do you prevent 'percieved' dawn raids by either party though?


----------



## Winot (Jul 22, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, that's the crux of the issue and why I feel it's important to keep going on about it. There seems to be some sort of apathetic attitude amongst some that we should just shrug our shoulders and accept whatever the 'co-operative' council does, even when they're clearly ignoring consultations or imposing new things on people that were never discussed (see: Grow Brixton -> Pop Brixton).
> It easy to post up words, but real life support is what's needed. I don't think barely any posters from here turned out for the recent Cressingham Gardens protest and that's a community that really needs support.



There are other ways to contribute.


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2015)

Winot said:


> There are other ways to contribute.


At this stage of the game for the Cressingham Gardens residents, it really is more about people getting off their arses, standing up and being counted and showing Lambeth that there is real community resistance to their plans.

Sadly there hasn't been much of that on any of their marches or protests. The turnouts have been heartbreakingly small given what's at stake.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 22, 2015)

editor said:


> At this stage of the game for the Cressingham Gardens residents, it really is more about people getting off their arses, standing up and being counted and showing Lambeth that there is real community resistance to their plans.
> 
> Sadly there hasn't been much of that on any of their marches or protests. The turnouts have been heartbreakingly small given what's at stake.



Not quite what I meant in my earlier post. 

What I mean is that I think there are posters here who do not support issues like the threatened shops in arches. Its not about apathy. 

Same goes for this thread. I reckon some think that Pop Brixton is fine. A good model for the rest of central Brixton when Network Rail and Council get around to "regeneration" of the whole central Brixton area.


----------



## steeeve (Jul 22, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Have we established whether the courgettes and chard (#2680) are local?



I also spotted runner beans


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 22, 2015)

teuchter said:


> You seem to think these two "opinion groups" are mutually exclusive.


Not really, but on evidence of this thread they dont seem to be mutually productive.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 22, 2015)

steeeve said:


> I also spotted runner beans



So, they are growing stuff while you eat. We should try it up here.


----------



## Twattor (Jul 22, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Not really, but on evidence of this thread they dont seem to be mutually productive.



This thread certainly seems to have ceased to be productive, mostly having descended into petty bickering and nit-picking.


----------



## T & P (Jul 22, 2015)

Twattor said:


> This thread certainly seems to have ceased to be productive, mostly having descended into petty bickering and nit-picking.


Petty bickering and nit-picking _must _be taking place in at least one thread in the Brixton forum at all times, or the boards will fall down. It's a bit like the ravens of the Tower of London.


----------



## deadringer (Jul 22, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> perhaps its time to split this thread (or start a new one) into:
> a) those that are enjoying the new retail park, Pop Brixton, and all its foody wonders thus far. And nothing wrong at all with that, if thats your thing, and
> 
> b)those that are concerned that the remaing sections of the thing will not live up to expectations in terms of the original ethos, and what we might be able to do about applying pressure.
> ...





Gramsci said:


> Not quite what I meant in my earlier post.
> 
> What I mean is that I think there are posters here who do not support issues like the threatened shops in arches. Its not about apathy.
> 
> Same goes for this thread. I reckon some think that Pop Brixton is fine. A good model for the rest of central Brixton when Network Rail and Council get around to "regeneration" of the whole central Brixton area.




I don't think it's so much that people that are not anti-pop think Pop is all fine and dandy, more that some of the more misleading, ludicrous , and downright untrue statements need to be challenged,


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I don't think it's so much that people that are not anti-pop think Pop is all fine and dandy, more that some of the more misleading, ludicrous , and downright untrue statements need to be challenged,


Which "ludicrous and downright untrue statements" are those then?

Or do you mean the ones from the council and their millionaire property developer partners?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 22, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> See, I've got nothing against "artisanal bread", French cheese or fizzy French wine, or "posh" burgers etc etc. I'm quite fond of sourdough, and bow to no-one in my enjoyment of a nice drippy Brie. What I dislike is the pricing. Despite what some posters on here bleat, the pricing *does* exclude, and in a way that makes very clear to both those that can afford, and those that can't, their perceived place in the world.



I completely agree that the pricing at pop does exclude people.

Lots of businesses, even some very long standing ones, exclude people too, which is why I worry more about those shops/businesses that less wealthy people do use are not lost due to rent hikes and yet more new food/drink venues replace them. I think it's time to focus on keeping those alive more than keep worrying about what's happening at Pop any longer.

Pop is just one more new place in Brixton I won't be using, but then I'd stopped going into the village 2 years ago too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I completely agree that the pricing at pop does exclude people.
> 
> Lots of businesses, even some very long standing ones, exclude people too, which is why I worry more about those shops/businesses that less wealthy people do use are not lost due to rent hikes and yet more new food/drink venues replace them. I think it's time to focus on keeping those alive more than keep worrying about what's happening at Pop any longer.
> 
> Pop is just one more new place in Brixton I won't be using, but then I'd stopped going into the village 2 years ago too.



I agree with you, but reserve the right to worry about Pop, if only to monitor any influence it brings to bear on local rents etc.


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What I mean is that I think there are posters here who do not support issues like the threatened shops in arches. Its not about apathy.



This is basically the reality of it. Those here who don't really care about whether some local business get closed in the Arches, or whether an estate such as Cressingham gets bulldozed, or that cuts to welfare combined with gentrification will affect lives and the make-up of the area. It would just be nice if those posters (and I don't live in Brixton or spend enough time on this forum to know exactly who they are - though I have my suspicions at times) could just be a bit more honest about it.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 22, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I don't think it's so much that people that are not anti-pop think Pop is all fine and dandy, more that some of the more misleading, ludicrous , and downright untrue statements need to be challenged,



As you quoted me what are the untrue or ludicrous statements that I have made?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 22, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> This is basically the reality of it. Those here who don't really care about whether some local business get closed in the Arches, or whether an estate such as Cressingham gets bulldozed, or that cuts to welfare combined with gentrification will affect lives and the make-up of the area. It would just be nice if those posters (and I don't live in Brixton or spend enough time on this forum to know exactly who they are - though I have my suspicions at times) could just be a bit more honest about it.



This is what I feel as well.

As I am in Brixton and also talk a lot to people who do not post on these boards I can tell you that my views on Pop, the arches, Cressingham and cuts are pretty well mainstream.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I completely agree that the pricing at pop does exclude people.
> 
> Lots of businesses, even some very long standing ones, exclude people too, which is why I worry more about those shops/businesses that less wealthy people do use are not lost due to rent hikes and yet more new food/drink venues replace them. I think it's time to focus on keeping those alive more than keep worrying about what's happening at Pop any longer.
> 
> Pop is just one more new place in Brixton I won't be using, but then I'd stopped going into the village 2 years ago too.



The problem is keeping having to reduce our horizons. I remember when the Brixton Village was under threat of redevelopment. After long campaign ( Hatboy deserves a lot of credit for this) it was listed as a market.

Now look at it.

Its like we keep on losing one bit of Brixton then say its time to focus on something else. It is my criticism of boohoo argument. When is this refocusing going to stop?

If the arches go there will not be much left.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 22, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> This is basically the reality of it. Those here who don't really care about whether some local business get closed in the Arches, or whether an estate such as Cressingham gets bulldozed, or that cuts to welfare combined with gentrification will affect lives and the make-up of the area. It would just be nice if those posters (and I don't live in Brixton or spend enough time on this forum to know exactly who they are - though I have my suspicions at times) could just be a bit more honest about it.



Next you'll be expecting Urban's landlords to out themselves! 
What are you, some sort of socialist!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is what I feel as well.
> 
> As I am in Brixton and also talk a lot to people who do not post on these boards I can tell you that my views on Pop, the arches, Cressingham and cuts are pretty well mainstream.



Yep. I've had the same experience. There's very much a sense that people (in London and elsewhere) feel an affinity to such views because they can be extrapolated to their own situations, and the experience will become ever more creepingly universal as rents climb and housing demand continues to greatly exceed supply.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The problem is keeping having to reduce our horizons. I remember when the Brixton Village was under threat of redevelopment. After long campaign ( Hatboy deserves a lot of credit for this) it was listed as a market.
> 
> Now look at it.
> 
> ...



In my opinion, refocusing constantly on the next battle contributes to burning activists out, and to making the public think that maybe a cause wasn't as important as was made out. While refocusing is rational behaviour, I prefer the idea of acting "holistically" - of taking a tiny part in many battles - not least because it builds solidarities outside of your own _milieu_, as evidenced with Reclaim Brixton! for example.
While some armchair strategists will mumble about the inadvisability of fighting on many fronts simultaneously, I'd remind them that such an injunction only applies to regular forces.  
We should fight for each cause until it is decisively won or lost, not just gaze toward the horizon and the next important fight as soon as it looks like we might lose the current one.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> This is basically the reality of it. Those here who don't really care about whether some local business get closed in the Arches, or whether an estate such as Cressingham gets bulldozed, or that cuts to welfare combined with gentrification will affect lives and the make-up of the area. It would just be nice if those posters (and I don't live in Brixton or spend enough time on this forum to know exactly who they are - though I have my suspicions at times) could just be a bit more honest about it.


Spot on.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As I am in Brixton and also talk a lot to people who do not post on these boards I can tell you that my views on Pop, the arches, Cressingham and cuts are pretty well mainstream.


As I am in Brixton (all day every day) and also talk to a lot of people who do not post on these boards I can tell you that _in my own experience:_ there is a lot of support for the arches (not universal, but a lot); there is very little animosity towards or sense of betrayal about Pop - and a broad spectrum of people who think it's great; and disappointingly few people seem to know a whole lot about Cressingham. 

The other thing thing which I notice is just how much jumbled misinformation seems to be going around.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> As I am in Brixton (all day every day) and also talk to a lot of people who do not post on these boards I can tell you that _in my own experience:_ there is a lot of support for the arches (not universal, but a lot); there is very little animosity towards or sense of betrayal about Pop - and a broad spectrum of people who think it's great; and disappointingly few people seem to know a whole lot about Cressingham.
> 
> The other thing thing which I notice is just how much jumbled misinformation seems to be going around.



Must talk to different people in that case. 

I do not know what the jumbled misinformation is thats going around.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Must talk to different people in that case.


As we both know, some are different. Some are the same.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> As I am in Brixton (all day every day) and also talk to a lot of people who do not post on these boards I can tell you that _in my own experience:_ there is a lot of support for the arches (not universal, but a lot); there is very little animosity towards or sense of betrayal about Pop - and a broad spectrum of people who think it's great; and disappointingly few people seem to know a whole lot about Cressingham.


I would suggest that is more about your lifestyle and the people you mix with rather than being any meaningful measure of local opinion. I'm sure there's plenty who think it's totes amazeballs, but I know _plenty_ of locals who are seriously fucked off with what happened at Pop, and many who have no interest in ever visiting (or have been once and hated it).  


Rushy said:


> The other thing thing which I notice is just how much jumbled misinformation seems to be going around.


Like what, precisely?


----------



## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> I would suggest that is more about your lifestyle and the people you mix with rather than being any meaningful measure of local opinion.


There's a surprise.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There's a surprise.


You can afford to regularly enjoy the cocktail bars and foodie places that have appeared, so I've no doubt you and your chums are absolutely loving the 'choice' that nu-Brixton offers you.

Sadly you seem utterly incapable of understanding why long term locals  who aren't so well off aren't finding much joy in these changes at all, or why some may feel resentful.

What's this 'jumbled information' you're on about?


----------



## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> You can afford to regularly enjoy the cocktail bars and foodie places that have appeared, so I've no doubt you and your chums are absolutely loving the 'choice' that nu-Brixton offers you.
> 
> Sadly you seem utterly incapable of understanding why long term locals  who aren't so well off aren't finding much joy in these changes at all, or why some may feel resentful.
> 
> What's this 'jumbled information' you're on about?


Hmm. You know next to nothing about my disposable income, who I hang out with and how often I'm out and about or where. But don't let that get in the way of your tediously predictable personal digs.


----------



## T & P (Jul 23, 2015)

Could you please stop posting off-message content, Rushy?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Must talk to different people in that case.
> 
> I do not know what the jumbled misinformation is thats going around.



Extrapolating from personal experience is fraught with danger.

We hear what we want to hear, we ask loaded questions, people tell us what they want us to hear, what they want us to think they think etc etc.

Polling before the last election may be an example of this.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I agree with you, but reserve the right to worry about Pop, *if only to monitor any influence it brings to bear on local rents etc.*



Which is the sensible thing to do. How do we stop these snowballing rent hikes which are threatening the businesses used by 'long term locals who aren't so well off'? 

I'm not a fan of Pop, I think it's a hideous, claustrophobic, cash driven construction site for posers, and it offers me very little indeed. I am also of the view that it is no more inclusive than many of the shops in the Village, The Ritzy (best price for an unemployed adult is £7.50 a ticket, for students it's £6,50), many of the pubs and bars, or even Morleys come to that. Whereas lots of the grocers/odds and sodshops/fishmongers/butchers around Elec lane/Ave/Antlantic road are really important to retain in the area because those are places used by all people operating at all levels of personal wealth.

If you're skint and you need to replace something, (oven gloves for instance), then people need a good local shop where they can get half decent oven gloves for a price that feels realistic to them. I went in Morleys for Oven Gloves, and I was like 'How fucking much?' - I'll just use a tea towel. 

My current future is uncertain due to finances, and it frightens the shit out of me, and I haven't felt like that for 22 years, so for people living with that year on year, always worrying about when they just can't afford to live any more, must be awful, so not losing the businesses that enable them to get by is essential now. 

Pop is the tipping point, the 'enough is enough' stage. I agree on that. I don't want to see any more start ups/pop ups/vintage boutiques/posh tat/Hip burgers etc....there's plenty of choice here now for the people who want that stuff...and when the novelty wears off, what are we left with? I suspect there's still some money to squeeze out and it will continue for a while yet.

I'm not sure this thread offers any convincing 'right' or 'wrong' about 'Pop', it just demonstrates the diversity of opinion about what Brixton is and what Brixton should be. It was always going to change, but the need to retain Brixton's history, culture and the people that went along with it (which includes businesses) is essential to keeping Brixton the kind of place I want to remain attached to.....but that's just my opinion.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Hmm. You know next to nothing about my disposable income, who I hang out with and how often I'm out and about or where.


You've often posted here about your visits to cocktail bars and foodie joints, so I'd say it's fair comment.

What's this 'jumbled information' you're on about?


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Pop is the tipping point, the 'enough is enough' stage. I agree on that. I don't want to see any more start ups/pop ups/vintage boutiques/posh tat/Hip burgers etc....


There's lots more coming, sadly.


----------



## T & P (Jul 23, 2015)

Jesus fucking wept


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> This is basically the reality of it. Those here who don't really care about whether some local business get closed in the Arches, or whether an estate such as Cressingham gets bulldozed, or that cuts to welfare combined with gentrification will affect lives and the make-up of the area. It would just be nice if those posters (and I don't live in Brixton or spend enough time on this forum to know exactly who they are - though I have my suspicions at times) could just be a bit more honest about it.


So you think people - and you're not quite sure who they are - are dishonest for not owning up to the opinions they have not expressed but that you have decided they must hold.

What I think is that there are quite a few posters here who _want _to read posts from straight-up evil heartless capitalist tyrants so they can have someone to hate upon in an uncomplicatd way. But in fact there aren't actually any regular posters here who don't give a toss about welfare cuts or gentrification, or who hold any of these other imagined positions.

So what happens is that those who don't continually restate the obvious about deprivation in Brixton, or make simplistic posts about evil landlords, or who dare to question any details of the criticism levelled at whatever the current enemy du jour is, get lumped into a category of posters who are "pro gentrification" or "pro capital", and become subject to a stream of offensive crap like what you've written above about how they "really don't care" or are "oblivious" about what's happening in Brixton aand those less fortunate than themselves.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> So you think people - and you're not quite sure who they are - are dishonest for not owning up to the opinions they have not expressed but that you have decided they must hold.
> 
> What I think is that there are quite a few posters here who _want _to read posts from straight-up evil heartless capitalist tyrants so they can have someone to hate upon in an uncomplicatd way. But in fact there aren't actually any regular posters here who don't give a toss about welfare cuts or gentrification, or who hold any of these other imagined positions.
> 
> So what happens is that those who don't continually restate the obvious about deprivation in Brixton, or make simplistic posts about evil landlords, or who dare to question any details of the criticism levelled at whatever the current enemy du jour is, get lumped into a category of posters who are "pro gentrification" or "pro capital", and become subject to a stream of offensive crap like what you've written above about how they "really don't care" or are "oblivious" about what's happening in Brixton aand those less fortunate than themselves.


loads of assumptions there you ass!


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

Oh, you're still here then teuchter, you tedious cock.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> You've often posted here about your visits to cocktail bars and foodie joints, so I'd say it's fair comment.



So we are free to discuss your regular trips to bars and clubs which you mention here, yes? You seem to be out on the town more frequently than me, so I guess I can assume you have loads more disposable income than I do, and consequently are probably entirely ignorant of the difficulties faced by those members of the local community who can't go out on a weeknight at all.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> There's lots more coming, sadly.



Yes, no doubt


----------



## T & P (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> You've often posted here about your visits to cocktail bars and foodie joints, so I'd say it's fair comment.


 I thought you were keen to stamp out this kind personal digs and _ad hominem_ attacks, editor? How different the above comment is to those in the past pointing out to your buying expensive photographic equipment, or going on trips to New York, and others in the similar vein, which you complained bitterly about?

If someone has a view diametrically opposed to yours on an issue you care about, perhaps it would be more constructive to simply agree to disagree with the poster in question, rather than dismiss their views as invalid/ untrue or to embark on the kind of personal digs that were supposed to be no longer allowed here?


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> So we are free to discuss your regular trips to bars and clubs which you mention here, yes? You seem to be out on the town more frequently than me, so I guess I can assume you have loads more disposable income than I do


That would be a very silly and a very incorrect assumption to make. What has this to do with you by the way?

But there's no doubting that many of the divisions played out on these boards are between the haves and the have nots, and there seems to be depressing lack of understanding for those on the wrong side of the divide. And it appears to be growing.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> I thought you were keen to stamp out this kind personal digs and _ad hominem_ attacks, editor? How different the above comment is to those in the past pointing out to your buying expensive photographic equipment, or going on trips to New York, and others in the similar vein, which you complained bitterly about?


I think it is a very relevant comment to this discussion. How much disposable income you have plays a key part in why some people will defend new ventures like Pop. It's because they can afford it and enjoy what it brings to them. They like it and will try and shut down and/or belittle anyone who doesn't.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> You've often posted here about your visits to cocktail bars and foodie joints, so I'd say it's fair comment.



So as evidence of my love of expensive cocktail bars you link to a post in which I say I was invited to a reunion at a central London cocktail bar which I said had good music and interesting cocktails but was expensive, unfriendly door staff, slow service and I would not be rushing back? 

I think I'm going to pop you on ignore for the rest of the day. Too much transparently personal beef.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I think I'm going to pop you on ignore for the rest of the day. Too much transparently personal beef.


Probably best all round for you.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> I think it is a very relevant comment to this discussion. How much disposable income you have plays a key part in why some people will defend new ventures like Pop. It's because they can afford it and enjoy what it brings to them. They like it and will try and shut down and/or belittle anyone who doesn't.


and the more types like them that move in and/or start "businesses" the less conspicuous they will look and won't be faced with little twinges of guilt (if they have any) with less poor people about


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> I would suggest that is more about your lifestyle and the people you mix with rather than being any meaningful measure of local opinion.



That, of course, works both ways. If you spend your time canvassing the opinions of those who generally agree with you, that's what happens.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> That, of course, works both ways. If you spend your time canvassing the opinions of those who generally agree with you, that's what happens.


Except I don't do that. I talk to locals of all backgrounds, from old residents on my estate to young people in bars/clubs to shopkeepers.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Except I don't do that. I talk to locals of all backgrounds, from old residents on my estate to young people in bars/clubs to shopkeepers.



But Rushy doesn't because he went to a cocktail bar?


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> But Rushy doesn't because he went to a cocktail bar?


If you're just going to try and showboat and misrepresent arguments with this kind of nonsense, I'll leave you to it.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 23, 2015)

anyone planning to enjoy Friday frolics at pop this week might be well advised to pack a cagoule...........
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/mobile/warnings/SE


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> If you're just going to try and showboat and misrepresent arguments with this kind of nonsense, I'll leave you to it.



Well it's a daft argument isn't it? 

You suggest that his opinions lack validity because of the probable bias of his sample section but refuse to acknowledge the same may be true of yours. When he says you know little about his network you cite him going to a cocktail bar, once, and not particularly liking it!


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> Well it's a daft argument isn't it?
> 
> You suggest that his opinions lack validity because of the probable bias of his sample section but refuse to acknowledge the same may be true of yours. When he says you know little about his network you cite him going to a cocktail bar, once, and not particularly liking it!


I think you are mistaken, rushy's posts quite often document his drunken carousing in Brixton and elsewhere


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I think you are mistaken, rushy's posts quite often document his drunken carousing in Brixton and elsewhere



Lots of people's posts document drunken carousing, drug taking, shagging, and other adventures!

If Ed wanted to make a particular personal point about Rushy he chose a piss poor example.


----------



## Winot (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> I think it is a very relevant comment to this discussion. How much disposable income you have plays a key part in why some people will defend new ventures like Pop. It's because they can afford it and enjoy what it brings to them. They like it and will try and shut down and/or belittle anyone who doesn't.



And yet you are shutting down and belittling a poster by making a very personal point about his (perceived) personal circumstances. I don't believe you are interested in debate. You want an echo chamber.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 23, 2015)

Winot said:


> And yet you are shutting down and belittling a poster by making a very personal point about his (perceived) personal circumstances. I don't believe you are interested in debate. You want an echo chamber.


please, this is bollocks, a while back on this thread I made some points and rusty called me a liar in two consecutive posts, if there is shutting down going on then that is a better example".......


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Which is the sensible thing to do. How do we stop these snowballing rent hikes which are threatening the businesses used by 'long term locals who aren't so well off'?



We can't.
The best we can do is voice our disapproval in ways that make that disapproval plain. You're never going to convince people who don't believe that morality or sentiment have a place in business, to give a shit beyond assuaging their conscience with an occasional bit of charity. What we can do is publicise their amorality through the various means at our disposal. I'm not saying "picket businesses that push out local traders", mind.
Not yet. 



> I'm not a fan of Pop, I think it's a hideous, claustrophobic, cash driven construction site for posers, and it offers me very little indeed. I am also of the view that it is no more inclusive than many of the shops in the Village, The Ritzy (best price for an unemployed adult is £7.50 a ticket, for students it's £6,50), many of the pubs and bars, or even Morleys come to that. Whereas lots of the grocers/odds and sodshops/fishmongers/butchers around Elec lane/Ave/Antlantic road are really important to retain in the area because those are places used by all people operating at all levels of personal wealth.



As was Robills of fond memory. 
And while I've heard people say "well we've got big supermarkets in Brixton and Streatham, we don't need the markets etc", it's not true. Not only do the supermarkets not cater to local tastes to anywhere like the degree that local produce traders do, they're none too nimble price-wise, either.	



> If you're skint and you need to replace something, (oven gloves for instance), then people need a good local shop where they can get half decent oven gloves for a price that feels realistic to them. I went in Morleys for Oven Gloves, and I was like 'How fucking much?' - I'll just use a tea towel.
> 
> My current future is uncertain due to finances, and it frightens the shit out of me, and I haven't felt like that for 22 years, so for people living with that year on year, always worrying about when they just can't afford to live any more, must be awful, so not losing the businesses that enable them to get by is essential now.



Sorry to hear that you're experiencing "the fear". It's fucking horrible, and you're absolutely right that those businesses help people get by. Sure, we're mostly talking about staples, and everyday household goods, and that might seem irrelevant to some, but it's *not* irrelevant when the existence of such shops is the difference between fending for yourself and having to use the foodbank.



> Pop is the tipping point, the 'enough is enough' stage. I agree on that. I don't want to see any more start ups/pop ups/vintage boutiques/posh tat/Hip burgers etc....there's plenty of choice here now for the people who want that stuff...and when the novelty wears off, what are we left with? I suspect there's still some money to squeeze out and it will continue for a while yet.
> 
> I'm not sure this thread offers any convincing 'right' or 'wrong' about 'Pop', it just demonstrates the diversity of opinion about what Brixton is and what Brixton should be. It was always going to change, but the need to retain Brixton's history, culture and the people that went along with it (which includes businesses) is essential to keeping Brixton the kind of place I want to remain attached to.....but that's just my opinion.



It's a worthwhile opinion.
From a cultural point of view, the gentrification of parts (and economic sectors) of Brixton, fuelled by the idea of "Brixton as cultural destination", is what is actually having a homogenising effect on Brixton's culture. The "re-whiting" of Brixton proceeds apace because history "in the raw" doesn't tend to be valued, whereas a safely-packaged *version* of history will be valued, because it can be marketed.
I don't think Pop is a "Great Satan", but I do agree that in terms indicating the future direction of Brixton commerce, it's the tipping point beyond which those locals who can't afford to, or refuse to participate in that sector of the local economy can see the loss of stuff that enables them to survive the vicissitudes of the current iteration of Hip-Brix.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

Winot said:


> And yet you are shutting down and belittling a poster by making a very personal point about his (perceived) personal circumstances. I don't believe you are interested in debate. You want an echo chamber.


you and your gang just want to shut down any debate on gentrification


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> Jesus fucking wept



No he didn't. That was the effect of the CS gas Pilate's cops used.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> What I think...



You *think*?


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 23, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you and your gang just want to shut down any debate on gentrification


yes, that's about the size of it........


----------



## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

To be fair, Cuppa is spot on. I have been drunk in Brixton, and elsewhere, quite a few times. A fair few more times than I have posted about, too. 

My girlfriend is going to be away so it is quite possible that this weekend could get very messy. I'll be sure to keep you updated.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> I think it is a very relevant comment to this discussion. How much disposable income you have plays a key part in why some people will defend new ventures like Pop. It's because they can afford it and enjoy what it brings to them. They like it and will try and shut down and/or belittle anyone who doesn't.



Everyone is tempted by the idea of exclusivity.
It just so happens that economic exclusivity is probably the most worthless form of exclusivity, but conversely is also the most vaunted and guarded by those who exercise it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

Winot said:


> And yet you are shutting down and belittling a poster by making a very personal point about his (perceived) personal circumstances. I don't believe you are interested in debate. You want an echo chamber.



You're not too self-aware, are you?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're not too self-aware, are you?



Meaning?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> To be fair, Cuppa is spot on. I have been drunk in Brixton, and elsewhere, quite a few times. A fair few more times than I have posted about, too.
> 
> My girlfriend is going to be away so it is quite possible that this weekend could get very messy. I'll be sure to keep you updated.


make sure you take some pics of you waving your wad or burning £50's for the lols!


----------



## leanderman (Jul 23, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you and your gang just want to shut down any debate on gentrification



I don't think anyone wants to shut down debate. 

It's the conduct of the debate that annoys me.

Notably, the editor opting for personal digs when specific points of his are challenged.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

anything ed says is gleefully picked apart in minute detail to find the smallest thing to hang him for, that is not debate
it amuses the gang greatly and it's all fun and games as the real issues of people and businesses being priced and forced out does not affect them and you even welcome it as it means more people like you and more money in the area


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 23, 2015)

I'm not sure what anyone wants on this thread any longer....


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> To be fair, Cuppa is spot on. I have been drunk in Brixton, and elsewhere, quite a few times. A fair few more times than I have posted about, too.
> 
> My girlfriend is going to be away so it is quite possible that this weekend could get very messy. I'll be sure to keep you updated.


Enjoy those lovely cocktails!


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'm not sure what anyone wants on this thread any longer....


It's the same old story, with the same gang of faces nitpicking away and doing their best to cleanse this forum of any meaningful debate.


----------



## Winot (Jul 23, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you and your gang just want to shut down any debate on gentrification



You are quite right. I am not interested in debates about gentrification. And I have made that lack of interest plain in many posts on that subject on U75 over the years.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

ddraig said:


> anything ed says is gleefully picked apart in minute detail to find the smallest thing to hang him for ...





editor said:


> Enjoy those lovely cocktails!



With posts like this he tends to bring it on himself, tbf!


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

that's after loads and loads of needling and snide digs
sure you me and many more would flip far sooner and far worse!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Meaning?



Meaning he does the same thing he accuses others of doing.


----------



## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Enjoy those lovely cocktails!


Oh dear. You really are scraping the barrel today  .


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Enjoy those lovely cocktails!





editor said:


> It's the same old story, with the same gang of faces nitpicking away and doing their best to cleanse this forum of any meaningful debate.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


>


And in comes one of the worst offenders of all, keen to needlessly stick in his oar for maximum dig potential and keep it all going. Well done.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Meaning he does the same thing he accuses others of doing.



I can't recall Winot doing that kind of thing.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Well, isn't this thread nicely fucked now - and that's probably exactly what the Pop fans want. Well done to all concerned - you certainly know who you are.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> It's the same old story, with the same gang of faces nitpicking away and doing their best to cleanse this forum of any meaningful debate.



That would depend on your definition of meaningful debate. If you just want people to post about how shit Pop is, the best thing to do would be to start a private conversation and only invite people who agree. Otherwise you'll get some differing views. If you then consider those with differing views as trying to shut down _meaningful debate_ it's hard to see what the point of an open forum discussion actually is.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> That would depend on your definition of meaningful debate. If you just want people to post about how shit Pop is, the best thing to do would be to start a private conversation and only invite people who agree. Otherwise you'll get some differing views. If you then consider those with differing views as trying to shut down meaningful debate it's hard to see what the point of an open forum discussion actually is.


You're missing the point as ever. Some people here are far more interested in having a go at me than actually discussing the topic, and they're not bothered if the thread goes totally tits up for everyone else as a result. 

They gleefully queue up to join in when when they think that I've been caught out on something, and really aren't bothered if the thread then turns into an arse-clenchingly dull and irrelevant debate about some microscopic inconsequential detail or another. 

And it's the same faces every time and it only stopped when they all had a little mass flounce a while ago - and the boards were all the better for it as people were able to concentrate on the topic and the things that matter and not petty pointless details about me

But then you'll know all this.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

editor said:


> You're missing the point as ever. Some people here are far more interested in having a go at me than actually discussing the topic, and they're not bothered if the thread goes totally tits up for everyone else as a result.
> 
> They gleefully queue up to join in when when they think that I've been caught out on something, and really aren't bothered if the thread then turns into an arse-clenchingly dull and irrelevant debate about some microscopic inconsequential detail or another.
> 
> ...



But you always take _any_ opposing view of your pet subjects (Brixton change and hatred of Apple Inc) personally, and that's what happens.

You then make sarcastic comments to anyone who disagrees (see the first and last sentences of the post I'm quoting here, in response to a perfectly reasonable post of mine), people respond in kind, and round and round it goes!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2015)

Editor, if you think people are having a go at you personally I understand the correct procedure is to report the posts and let the moderating team deal with it, rather than disrupting the thread by whining about it here. And if you want to discuss it in the open, take it to the feedback forum. Thanks. Now can we get back on topic please.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2015)

Spotted in Green Man window just now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I can't recall Winot doing that kind of thing.



Can't you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Oh dear. You really are scraping the barrel today  .



Thought you were ignoring him, you little fibber!


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

Pity they can't spell either 'appointment' or their email address properly.

The recruitment website blurb:



			
				Greenman said:
			
		

> Green Man Recruitment is a new organisation pushing new methodologies within the recruitment industry
> 
> We started using visual Cvs as part of a project with the Metropolitan Police helping young people market themselves more professionally to prospective employers. The ‘See me CV’ launched in 2006 and provided a useful tool to show young people how they could improve their presentation within interviews.
> 
> Today we have built on this idea and started a collaboration with the award winning ‘TV in a card’ marketing company. We thought if direct video marketing was making an impact on sales of high end products and services then why not market people to companies in the same way?



I had to google "Innovative SEE ME CV process"...



			
				SeeMeCV said:
			
		

> Video enables individuals to differentiate themselves and provides employers with a unique insight into their capabilities before they proceed to the next steps of a selection process. Our video solutions also support the needs of employers enabling them to "personalise" their business so a candidate can assess their culture, working environment and career opportunities prior to submitting their application.
> 
> Online video interview rooms and online video recruitment fairs can further extend the process to enable individuals and employers to "meet up" conveniently over the web, saving time, effort and money for all concerned.


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

Edgy, vibrant, recruitment methodologies. For an edgy, vibrant, Brixton.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Edgy, vibrant, recruitment methodologies. For an edgy, vibrant, Brixton.


Can't beat a video solution.


----------



## leanderman (Jul 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Can't you?



No


----------



## 299 old timer (Jul 23, 2015)

So they are offering jobs to the community and people are still having a pop? (see what I did there)


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 23, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> So they are offering jobs to the community and people are still having pop? (see what I did there)



Brilliant! I nearly popped my clogs laughing!

.....and we're off


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> So they are offering jobs to the community and people are still having pop? (see what I did there)



Well beyond the usual recruitment hype, my first concern reading it all was just how inclusive their process might be, and potential demographic.

If you want to make it truly for the community, you know you could offer it to the local job centre, or even conduct interviews in-house.

(I do have a strong dislike of recruitment consultants tbf)


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

and will the people lucky enough to get jobs there be able to afford the produce on the wages paid!


----------



## T & P (Jul 23, 2015)

Every last bit as able or unable as they would from every other business in Brixton, for the most part.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

so nowhere else does fish and chips for under £10??


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Well beyond the usual recruitment hype, my first concern reading it all was just how inclusive their process might be, and potential demographic.
> 
> If you want to make it truly for the community, you know you could offer it to the local job centre, or even conduct interviews in-house.
> 
> (I do have a strong dislike of recruitment consultants tbf)


Maybe you should do some research on what the Green Man centre is.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Maybe you should do some research on what the Green Man centre is.


I had a friend who passed through their doors, he seemed to think their mission was to undermine his self confidence and belittle him


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 23, 2015)

At least the Green Man recruitment drive fits in with the Nu Brixton network. Michael Groce is behind Green Man. Green Man is now managing No 6 Somerleyton 'on behalf' of the mysterious Brixton Green. Brixton Green founder Philippe Castaing is also the Commercial Director at Pop Brixton.

Fancy that.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 23, 2015)

cushy and cushdy


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> So they are offering jobs to the community and people are still having a pop? (see what I did there)



No, they're offering the community the opportunity to use their exclusive CV-making process so that they can be put forward for possible jobs. Laudable, but not the same thing as "offering jobs", and as a skills agency I'm sure Green Man will receive their due for any placements they make.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> At least the Green Man recruitment drive fits in with the Nu Brixton network. Michael Groce is behind Green Man. Green Man is now managing No 6 Somerleyton 'on behalf' of the mysterious Brixton Green. Brixton Green founder Philippe Castaing is also the Commercial Director at Pop Brixton.
> 
> Fancy that.



You know what "they" say: "Vice is nice, but incest is best!"


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, they're offering the community the opportunity to use their exclusive CV-making process so that they can be put forward for possible jobs. Laudable, but not the same thing as "offering jobs", and as a skills agency I'm sure Green Man will receive their due for any placements they make.



Is that how it works? Green Man receives funding for placements. Who from? Lambeth Council?

Profits made at Pop are shared with... Lambeth Council?

And so that's how a business park for the 21st Century operates.


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> At least the Green Man recruitment drive fits in with the Nu Brixton network. Michael Groce is behind Green Man. Green Man is now managing No 6 Somerleyton 'on behalf' of the mysterious Brixton Green. Brixton Green founder Philippe Castaing is also the Commercial Director at Pop Brixton.
> 
> Fancy that.



Good grief!


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Is that how it works? Green Man receives funding for placements. Who from? Lambeth Council?



iirc Green Man is the flagship project of Lambeth Councils jobs brokerage department
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...roposed-rents-etc.318356/page-5#post-13954084


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Extrapolating from personal experience is fraught with danger.
> 
> We hear what we want to hear, we ask loaded questions, people tell us what they want us to hear, what they want us to think they think etc etc.
> 
> Polling before the last election may be an example of this.



I am not. 

I do not ask loaded questions. I am around and about London and Brixton and meet all sorts. I hear a lot and see a lot. A wider range of people than most meet in there everyday existence. 

People have gone onto me about Pop without me even asking them there opinion of it.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Pity they can't spell either 'appointment' or their email address properly.
> 
> The recruitment website blurb:
> 
> ...



Thanks for that info. 

Here is part of your quote from Green Man:



> We thought if direct video marketing was making an impact on sales of high end products and services then why not market people to companies in the same way?



I find the idea of marketing people like products distasteful. 

Is this what life is about? Selling oneself as a product that may fit into a business? Its one thing to sell ones labour now one has to sell ones whole self.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> At least the Green Man recruitment drive fits in with the Nu Brixton network. Michael Groce is behind Green Man. Green Man is now managing No 6 Somerleyton 'on behalf' of the mysterious Brixton Green. Brixton Green founder Philippe Castaing is also the Commercial Director at Pop Brixton.
> 
> Fancy that.



Well they all know each other. You left out Cllr Hopkins who is chummy with all of them from what I have heard. Its a Nu Labour network. 

Micheal Groce is still having a little difficulty at Number 6. (Allegedly) The police took a dim view of his actions in trying to get rid of the other groups who were in number 6.  (Which Brixton Green wanted off the site). 

But still he is well connected and I am sure this misunderstanding on part of the police will not hamper all the great work he is doing for the community.


----------



## brixtonblade (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I find the idea of marketing people like products distasteful.
> 
> Is this what life is about? Selling oneself as a product that may fit into a business? Its one thing to sell ones labour now one has to sell ones whole self.



I don't particularly like the terminology but I think that going for interviews has always had a bit of selling yourself (like are you easy to get on with, do you work hard, will you fit in) about it.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> I don't particularly like the terminology but I think that going for interviews has always had a bit of selling yourself (like are you easy to get on with, do you work hard, will you fit in) about it.



Back in the dim and distant past one would go door to door looking for any kind of work. Someone would say ok will give you a start and you turned up next day.Work was work. You turned up did the job and went. 

Going even further back. I was chatting to a Londoner who left school in 60s. Got a job straight away. Said she never needed a CV back then. That was when London still had light industrial factory work.

Its the increasing psychological side to it that I do not like. Learning to sell oneself.  As far as I am concerned I sell my labour and am not interested in the rest of it.

I see it in some shops around West End. The staff are putting on act of being enthusiastic.


----------



## brixtonblade (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Back in the dim and distant past one would go door to door looking for any kind of work. Someone would say ok will give you a start and you turned up next day.Work was work. You turned up did the job and went.
> 
> Going even further back. I was chatting to a Londoner who left school in 60s. Got a job straight away. Said she never needed a CV back then. That was when London still had light industrial factory work.
> 
> ...



I can imagine that a lot has to do with the type of work.  I'm guessing that if jobs required manual labour that the recruitment process is a lot about checking that someone could perform manual work which would mean that those that couldnt were probably fairly screwed.  As jobs have become less about manual labour then assessing other atributes would become more important and as they're perhaps a bit more intangible that might lead to the "selling yourself" in an interview


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Back in the dim and distant past one would go door to door looking for any kind of work. Someone would say ok will give you a start and you turned up next day.Work was work. You turned up did the job and went.
> 
> Going even further back. I was chatting to a Londoner who left school in 60s. Got a job straight away. Said she never needed a CV back then. That was when London still had light industrial factory work.
> 
> ...



I think _selling yourself _is just new speak for presenting yourself in the way most attractive to the prospective employer, and that's been going on since people have been being employed. If 2 mechanics with equal skills interviewed for one job, but one was pleasant and well turned out while the other was an obviously stroppy fucker with a personal hygiene issue, who's more likely to get the job?

_Selling yourself_ is really just varying degrees of that.


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## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

So, job hunters having to sell themselves via a 'video cv' to what is essentially a recruitment consultant (they charge fees), who will then gatekeep and put forward some of them for interviews to work with what's supposed to be a startup for the community? Is this the way it works?


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## brixtonblade (Jul 23, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> So, job hunters having to sell themselves via a 'video cv' to what is essentially a recruitment consultant (they charge fees), who will then gatekeep and put forward some of them for interviews to work with what's supposed to be a startup for the community? Is this the way it works?


God knows.  I've never really had a handle on what the Green Man place did, just thought Gramsci's post was interesting.


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## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> God knows.  I've never really had a handle on what the Green Man place did, just thought Gramsci's post was interesting.



Well, it appears there's Green Man Skills, who are (their words) a partner to Green Man Recruitment.


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## brixtonblade (Jul 23, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Well, it appears there's Green Man Skills, who (their words) are a partner to Green Man Recruitment.


I assume that it's all part of the same organisation (which I always thought was a bit of the council but I'm now guessing is part council funded?) in the old pub building in LJ.


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## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> _Selling yourself_ is really just varying degrees of that.



Pretty shit system that one has to sell oneself to get by in it.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Is that how it works? Green Man receives funding for placements.



It's how most skills agencies work. You train people up - usually so-called "basic skills", plus simple computing stuff etc, make sure they know how to present themselves, then send them off as jobs fodder. If you've trained them with basic skills there's a payment for that, and if they get a job and hold it for 6 months, there's a payment for that too. 



> Who from? Lambeth Council?



From what I recall when I was researching the various cons the government has been subjected w/r/t to skills training, the company tenders to a "multi-agency" body that includes the local authority, but completion and training payments are from the DWP.



> Profits made at Pop are shared with... Lambeth Council?
> 
> And so that's how a business park for the 21st Century operates.



It may be at least part of how it operates, and sadly (as has been proven time after time since the advent of direct-funded training schemes with the Y.O.P. and Y.T.S.) there's nothing to stop things being managed in such a way as to satisfy multiple parties at the expense of Joe Public.


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## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Pretty shit system that one has to sell oneself to get by in it.



But it's been going on forever, hasn't it?  

Even in the situation that you described above with someone going door to door, that person is selling themselves. They wouldn't just knock on the door and stand there. They'd ask if there was any work and explain that they can do that work, perhaps where they've done it before etc. That's selling themselves. This is just another way of doing that, albeit via another party.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Pretty shit system that one has to sell oneself to get by in it.



Come on Gramsci you're not suggesting the idea of presenting your best image at interview is a shit system are you? That idea hugely devalues human behaviour and emotional connection. Most interviewers admit that within a few minutes they've decided "yes" or "no" simply based on the human connection, utterly regardless of technical qualification. That is simply down to the fact people like to work with people who are nice, not technically competent.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks for that info.
> 
> Here is part of your quote from Green Man:
> 
> ...



Frankly mate, that's precisely what it's about, and what it's been about for decades. It's just that we're only just experiencing the apotheosis of how crap it is, because the latest iteration - marketing yourself by video - has filtered down to us. This has been a feature of some "corporate" recruiting for over a decade, along with all the cod-psych testing woo.


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## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> But it's been going on forever, hasn't it?
> 
> Even in the situation that you described above with someone going door to door, that person is selling themselves. They wouldn't just knock on the door and stand there. They'd ask if there was any work and explain that they can do that work, perhaps where they've done it before etc. That's selling themselves. This is just another way of doing that, albeit via another party.



The point my friend who started work in the 60s meant was that you did not need a whole CV with all your interests, etc etc. 

So its not the same. Its more intrusive now. 

And if the old way of selling oneself worked why have a third party? 

"Its" not been going on forever. The modern concept of selling ones labour is in a market place is a recent one. Previously periods in history one may have been a vassal of a lord for example. Tied to the land with obligations and some rights.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> I don't particularly like the terminology but I think that going for interviews has always had a bit of selling yourself (like are you easy to get on with, do you work hard, will you fit in) about it.



You're "selling" insofar as you're promoting yourself as a better alternative to other applicants, but you're "selling" your ability to *do the job well*, and that's as it should be. Too many employers believe that you sell your life to them, given the ever-burgeoning complaints about free time being eaten into etc.


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## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Come on Gramsci you're not suggesting the idea of presenting your best image at interview is a shit system are you? That idea hugely devalues human behaviour and emotional connection. Most interviewers admit that within a few minutes they've decided "yes" or "no" simply based on the human connection, utterly regardless of technical qualification. That is simply down to the fact people like to work with people who are nice, not technically competent.



What I meant was that having to sell ones labour is shit system.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What I meant was that having to sell ones labour is shit system.



Fair enough, can't argue with that. But I'd still prefer a smiley labourer to a grumpy as a fuck labourer


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## stethoscope (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What I meant was that having to sell ones labour is shit system.



Wage labour under capitalism is shit enough without having to increasingly parade yourself in new ways just for its benefit.


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## Spymaster (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The modern concept of selling ones labour is in a market place is a recent one.



I disagree with this bit. The concept of referring and checking out potential employees has been going on for centuries if not millennia. It's just the methods that have changed. Where now there are CVs and reference checking, there were once guilds through which craftsmen could ply their credentials, or sell themselves.


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## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

Spymaster said:


> I disagree with this bit. The concept of referring and checking out potential employees has been going on for centuries if not millennia. It's just the methods that have changed. Where now there are CVs and reference checking, there were once guilds through which craftsmen could ply their credentials, or sell themselves.



I meant by modern concept of selling ones labour the one that stethoscope states of wage labour under capitalism. 

Guilds. People were often apprenticed to craftsmen at an early age. It was not the same as selling ones labour in a capitalist market. Guilds tightly controlled labour.


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## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> God knows.  I've never really had a handle on what the Green Man place did, just thought Gramsci's post was interesting.



I go by the Green Man place in the old pub at LJ every day and it looks empty. Maybe I go past at wrong times of day.


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## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fair enough, can't argue with that. But I'd still prefer a smiley labourer to a grumpy as a fuck labourer



Even if the grumpy one does a better job?


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## T & P (Jul 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're "selling" insofar as you're promoting yourself as a better alternative to other applicants, but you're "selling" your ability to *do the job well*, and that's as it should be. Too many employers believe that you sell your life to them, given the ever-burgeoning complaints about free time being eaten into etc.


I haven't had to do a job interview for 23-odd years, and frankly I'd be petrified to do one now. Having been semi-involved in the interviewing process for a couple of positions at my place, I found many of the questions put forward to applicants irrelevant and unfit for purpose- only useful to those with certain ease for words and communication skills but useless to establish whether the person would be any good for the position advertised, or indeed any skill other than being good at bullshitting your way out of situations.

Fucking hate interviews with a passion.


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## SpamMisery (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Even if the grumpy one does a better job?



Well, yeah, often you're right. However, I'm currently recruiting and I caught myself saying today to a potential candidate that the right fit for the role is often better than the most qualified. It's all to do with staff turnover and its potaential affect on moral. Definitely different for different jobs though, so certainly not a universal.


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## Rushy (Jul 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Even if the grumpy one does a better job?



Well yes. Its not always about personality. But how does the interviewer know he does a better job if he doesn't sell himself?


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## T & P (Jul 23, 2015)

These last few posts have been reminding me of a certain classic film scene, so here it is for all to enjoy


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## Gramsci (Jul 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> These last few posts have been reminding me of a certain classic film scene, so here it is for all to enjoy




I remember seeing this. Trainspotting- must give it another look. Its so funny. And makes a point about work. Quite a radical film in its way.


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## Gramsci (Jul 24, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Well yes. Its not always about personality. But how does the interviewer know he does a better job if he doesn't sell himself?



In fact I have interviewed people. Its 90% waste of time. Someone can be good at interview then turn out to be a psycho. Another can do poor interview but still take them on. They turn out to be really good. 

There is also a lot of unconscious bias that goes on. Or maybe not that unconscious.


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## brixtonblade (Jul 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I go by the Green Man place in the old pub at LJ every day and it looks empty. Maybe I go past at wrong times of day.


Yes, looks well maintained but never see anyone there


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## BigMoaner (Jul 24, 2015)

The Great P


T & P said:


> These last few posts have been reminding me of a certain classic film scene, so here it is for all to enjoy



one of the greatest films every made, imo.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Wage labour under capitalism is shit enough without having to increasingly parade yourself in new ways just for its benefit.



Agreed. it's like the boss class isn't content with holding your livelihood in their hands, they want your soul, too.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I meant by modern concept of selling ones labour the one that stethoscope states of wage labour under capitalism.
> 
> Guilds. People were often apprenticed to craftsmen at an early age. It was not the same as selling ones labour in a capitalist market. Guilds tightly controlled labour.



*Very* tightly, even into the mid-to-late 20th century.
Part of my family line were Staffordshire potters who basically "followed the work" (which meant that come the 1890s, they were in Glasgow as the Scottish ceramics industry took off. The guilds were so powerful that even in an outlying and minor part of the industry, you still couldn't even hump sacks of clay unless you had a potter's ticket. Mind you, apparently the pay was still shit, because the family turned up near Rotherham a few years later, working as hewers in the south Yorkshire coalfield.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Well yes. Its not always about personality. But how does the interviewer know he does a better job if he doesn't sell himself?



Personal recommendations from others are generally less likely to be awash with bullshit than attempts at selling oneself, hence the taking up of references.


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## CH1 (Jul 24, 2015)

Pop seemed understandably deserted tonight due to weather no doubt - notwithstanding a puff in the Evening Standard listings section.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 25, 2015)

I went down to Pop this afternoon, for no particular reason apart from being bored and curious. Very full in the good weather and everything was nice enough, but way too claustrophobic for me—might be more enjoyable when more empty I suppose.

I completely stand by "air-dropped gentrification bomb" though. It's utterly nothing to do with anything around it, you're completely isolated from your surroundings when inside it, and it's clearly designed for a very specific demographic doing specific things and not for general use. Even more niche than the shoreditch box park actually.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 25, 2015)

I tried Zoe's Ghana Kitchen earlier in the week. It was very good. 

Had a great laugh with one of the girls working there who was half Ghanain and half Irish. Turned out her mums home town was a place near where we used to go on holiday so we had a good chat and a crack about old times in West Cork. 

It's about £12-15 for a very good meal and a drink. You can get a members card that gives 12.5% off the total food bill. I highly recommend


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## leanderman (Jul 25, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's utterly nothing to do with anything around it



Why should it be? Who should determine what any place should be? And that it should, for ever, be the same.

I imagine that the place 'around it' has changed many times.

For the avoidance of doubt: I agree with you that it's not that great


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## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

I walked past at 9pm tonight and Pop was jammed with a fairly large queue that seemed to be 1 in 1 out.

The village was very busy too but there was room in some of the restaurants like the Japanese, that seafood place, c+f and the burger place. There were the usual large queues for the best places like the Thai and mama lan but I would say numbers are down for the less popular places for sure.

There was no fucker in the market across the road from the village. It looked a bit ramshackle and badly lit and uninviting.


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## hendo (Jul 26, 2015)

I went to Pop Brixton yesterday and had a beer and a sausage. The stallholders were friendly and enthusiastic, but it might as well be a kind of spaceship that's landed there for all the connection it has with the rest of the area. The crowd were white, prosperous and there was security on all the entrances with signs saying they'd search your bag if they felt like it. The tall steel containers make it feel like a kind of fortress, a bit like the gas pumping station in Mad Max 2. It's in Brixton but its not 'of' Brixton, if you know what I mean. Nice Beer. Tasty sausage. But Odd.


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## Winot (Jul 26, 2015)

It's definitely not of its surroundings. But I think that's very likely to be the case with a venture that's been planned as an integral entity and then 'installed'. As opposed to something that's developed over time organically (such as the shift from Granville Arcade -> Brixton Village Spacemakers era -> Brixton Village now).


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> There was no fucker in the market across the road from the village. It looked a bit ramshackle and badly lit and uninviting.


Was it not shiny, trendy and packed enough for your tastes?

"_no fucker_"


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

hendo said:


> I went to Pop Brixton yesterday and had a beer and a sausage. The stallholders were friendly and enthusiastic, but it might as well be a kind of spaceship that's landed there for all the connection it has with the rest of the area.


Indeed. it's like a community project that's aimed at anyone but the actual local community. And the least said about the 'horticulturally led 'green oasis' PR bullshit the better.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

editor said:


> Was it not shiny, trendy and packed enough for your tastes?


I had just come from the Canterbury so I'll let you work out if "shiny" and "trendy" are important to me. 

(((Editor)))


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I had just come from the Canterbury so I'll let you work out if "shiny" and "trendy" are important to me.
> 
> (((Editor)))


I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere. The Canterbury is a pub. Pop Brixton/Granville are food-focused markets.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

If there is a point you'll be certain to miss it. 

I'm going to put you on ignore now because I've enough of you making the same point over and again and trying to debate anything with you is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork.


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## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Why should it be? Who should determine what any place should be? And that it should, for ever, be the same.
> 
> I imagine that the place 'around it' has changed many times.
> 
> For the avoidance of doubt: I agree with you that it's not that great



Its on Council owned land. It is one of three Council set up "Meanwhile" uses in the area ( The other two being The Platform at LJ and Number 6 Somerleyton road). 

The Council decided to have competition for the site. The whole point of Meanwhile use was that the existing community would have a say. However flawed in practise that was the idea behind Meanwhile use. 

The second thing  this area is under the Brixton Central Masterplan. Which the Council consulted people on. Its imo limited input. But shows that there is an idea of some kind of democratic control instead of letting market forces deciding how an area should change.


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## Rushy (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If there is a point you'll be certain to miss it.
> 
> I'm going to put you on ignore now because I've enough of you making the same point over and again and trying to debate anything with you is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork.


FYI you will find that by putting Ed on ignore you also put this whole thread on ignore, as I found out the other day. The ignore function hides any threads started by the ignoree.


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## T & P (Jul 26, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere. The Canterbury is a pub. Pop Brixton/Granville are food-focused markets.


I think the point Mr Retro was making is that the kind of places he frequents, like the Canterbury, are anything but shiny and trendy, and therefore your suggestion that he didn't like the market because it wasn't shiny and trendy enough for him was quite wrong and baseless.


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

T & P said:


> I think the point Mr Retro was making is that the kind of places he frequents, like the Canterbury, are anything but shiny and trendy, and therefore your suggestion that he didn't like the market because it wasn't shiny and trendy enough for him was quite wrong and baseless.


Except we weren't talking about pubs. We were talking about the kind of bright and trendy places where he - apparently - regularly likes to spend a fair whack on foodie treats. But Market Space wasn't for him as it had "no fuckers" present and was slagged off as being "ramshackle and badly lit and uninviting."

But thanks for your thoughts on the matter. Always appreciated and always enlightening for the discussion at hand.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

Rushy said:


> FYI you will find that by putting Ed on ignore you also put this whole thread on ignore, as I found out the other day. The ignore function hides any threads started by the ignoree.


You're right Rusy


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## T & P (Jul 26, 2015)

editor said:


> Except we weren't talking about pubs. We were talking about the kind of bright and trendy places where he - apparently - regularly likes to spend a fair whack on foodie treats. But Market Space wasn't for him as it had "no fuckers" present and was slagged off as being "ramshackle and badly lit and uninviting."
> 
> But thanks for your thoughts on the matter. Always appreciated and always enlightening for the discussion at hand.



Is it possible for anyone to have the fucking temerity to leave positive feedback about a place you don't like, and/ or negative feedback about a place you like without you resorting to personal digs & character assassination, Editor?

It is starting to get out of hand.


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## Rushy (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> You're right Rusy


Mr Rero


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## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

editor said:


> Except we weren't talking about pubs. We were talking about the kind of bright and trendy places where he - apparently - regularly likes to spend a fair whack on foodie treats.


But even you in your desperation to make a point (wrongly) can surely extrapolate that given my favourite pub is the Canterbury then "shiny" and "trendy" are unimportant features to me anywhere? Maybe not but I would speculate you are the only one that can't see that. 


editor said:


> But Market Space wasn't for him as it had "no fuckers" present and was slagged off as being "ramshackle and badly lit and uninviting."


 I wasn't slagging it off. I'm stating fact.


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm going to put you on ignore now because I've enough of you making the same point over and again and trying to debate anything with you is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork.





Mr Retro said:


> But even you in your desperation to make a point (wrongly) can surely extrapolate that given my favourite pub is the Canterbury then "shiny" and "trendy" are unimportant features to me anywhere? Maybe not but I would speculate you are the only one that can't see that.
> I wasn't slagging it off. I'm stating fact.


At least stick to your fucking words. And it was certainly a slagging off.


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2015)

Christ almighty.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 26, 2015)

hendo said:


> I went to Pop Brixton yesterday and had a beer and a sausage. The stallholders were friendly and enthusiastic, but it might as well be a kind of spaceship that's landed there for all the connection it has with the rest of the area. The crowd were white, prosperous and there was security on all the entrances with signs saying they'd search your bag if they felt like it. The tall steel containers make it feel like a kind of fortress, a bit like the gas pumping station in Mad Max 2. It's in Brixton but its not 'of' Brixton, if you know what I mean. Nice Beer. Tasty sausage. But Odd.



Careful, mentioning that you noticed that the crowd was white will get you sneered at by some posters.


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## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

editor said:


> At least stick to your fucking words. And it was certainly a slagging off.


I can't unfortunately ignore you as I then can see any threads you start. 

Once again, as you are having difficulty with this by all accounts, I was stating fact.


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

T & P said:


> It is starting to get out of hand.


It's been out of hand for a long time and it's the same little group who are responsible. Just like you, they steam in every single time to 'defend' their pals and gleefully capitalise on any perceived contradictions in my opinions.

Fuck the actual arguments, fuck the fact that some locals may be angry by the way that Grow Brixton transformed into a pricey trendy foodie joint with zero consultation and fuck those who say they feel excluded from the venture, because having yet another pop at me is far more important, eh?

If I'd posted what hendo did (and his opinion is essentially exactly the same as what I've been posting) you'd all be lining up to have a go. It's obvious, transparent, disruptive and pathetic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I can't unfortunately ignore you as I then can see any threads you start.
> 
> Once again, as you are having difficulty with this by all accounts, I was stating fact.



No, you were stating an opinion. It doesn't become a fact until proven.


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I can't unfortunately ignore you as I then can see any threads you start.


Right. So you are physically unable to ignore any posts and you simply can't stop yourself responding to anything unless the board software does it for you?


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## editor (Jul 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, you were stating an opinion. It doesn't become a fact until proven.


Indeed. And what a sneering opinion it was ("no fuckers" etc).


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## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed. And what a sneering opinion it was ("no fuckers" etc).


"No fuckers" is kind of colloquial slang used often where I come from. "There was no fucker there" is a statement of fact, not an insult and not intended to be. 

You are wrong about Hendo but you can't even see it.


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## Spymaster (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> "No fuckers" is kind of colloquial slang used often where I come from. "There was no fucker there" is a statement of fact, not an insult ....



That's the case everywhere. 

This is some transparently weird attempt at misrepresentation.


----------



## T & P (Jul 26, 2015)

editor said:


> It's been out of hand for a long time and it's the same little group who are responsible. Just like you, they steam in every single time to 'defend' their pals and gleefully capitalise on any perceived contradictions in my opinions.
> 
> Fuck the actual arguments, fuck the fact that some locals may be angry by the way that Grow Brixton transformed into a pricey trendy foodie joint with zero consultation and fuck those who say they feel excluded from the venture, because having yet another pop at me is far more important, eh?
> 
> If I'd posted what hendo did (and his opinion is essentially exactly the same as what I've been posting) you'd all be lining up to have a go. It's obvious, transparent, disruptive and pathetic.


WTF are you talking about? Someone voiced an opinion about a couple of places, an opinion you clearly didn't agree with. And you decided to play the man instead of the ball and descend into the very kind of personal digs you regularly claim to be so keen to stamp out of this forum.

FFS Editor, perhaps take a step back from the keyboard sometimes when someone expresses an opinion you don't agree with, instead of feeling the need to slur the person who made them as an attempt to nullify their views.


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## Gramsci (Jul 26, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> You are wrong about Hendo but you can't even see it.



Hendo said this:



> I went to Pop Brixton yesterday and had a beer and a sausage. The stallholders were friendly and enthusiastic, but it might as well be a kind of spaceship that's landed there for all the connection it has with the rest of the area. The crowd were white, prosperous and there was security on all the entrances with signs saying they'd search your bag if they felt like it. The tall steel containers make it feel like a kind of fortress, a bit like the gas pumping station in Mad Max 2. It's in Brixton but its not 'of' Brixton, if you know what I mean. Nice Beer. Tasty sausage. But Odd.



You are saying you do not have a problem with what Hendo posted? That what he reports on his experience and view of the place is valid?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 26, 2015)

Passing thought, but regardless of one's opinions on hipster moonbases, it really isn't necessary for the council to support them. Businesses catering to gentrifiers are part of gentrification and happen regardless. If anything they'd normally arrive a bit more gently rather than in one armoured blob like Pop. What does it say that the council is apparently so amazingly keen to welcome its new overlords? (Nothing anyone hadn't already suspected, really, I guess.)


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## dbs1fan (Jul 26, 2015)

FFS, Editor, get a grip on yourself. You come across as a paranoid, defensive idiot. 'No fucker' wasn't meant to be sneering- it was, as pointed out, the way some Irish people talk.


Mr Retro said:


> "No fuckers" is kind of colloquial slang used often where I come from. "There was no fucker there" is a statement of fact, not an insult and not sneering


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Hendo said this:
> 
> 
> 
> You are saying you do not have a problem with what Hendo posted? That what he reports on his experience and view of the place is valid?


I have no problem with what Hendo said. I'm saying editor is wrong when he says if he posted the same people would be on his case. 

I said something similar to Hendo after my first visit to Pop. I think I said I agree that Pop could be anywhere but I'm glad it's in Brixton.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 26, 2015)

The glaswegian equivalent being "no c*nt was in there"


----------



## alfajobrob (Jul 26, 2015)




----------



## equationgirl (Jul 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The glaswegian equivalent being "no c*nt was in there"


More correctly 'nae c*nt wiz in there'.


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2015)

It looks like a whole new era of vibrancy is coming to the neighbours as the car park gets built over for what looks like another stage (temporary, I hope):


----------



## Rushy (Jul 28, 2015)

If it's not got planning it should not be there for more than 28 days. In theory, that is.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 28, 2015)

The Splash Cash In Stage at Pop, Brixton.....


----------



## Rushy (Jul 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The Splash Cash In Stage at Pop, Brixton.....


Ah. Splash. Obviously!


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2015)

Looks like it might be the same one as was used for the Country Show.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 28, 2015)

That's some big ol' stage...


----------



## T & P (Jul 28, 2015)

So if it is Splash-related, is it vibrant or not?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 28, 2015)

didn't take long!!


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 28, 2015)

apparently it's some Adidas sponsored event


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 28, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> apparently it's some Adidas sponsored event



........ soccer 

http://www.soccerbible.com/competitions/play-for-soccerbible-at-the-adidas-brixton-base-event/


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 28, 2015)

wtf is soccer  we play football over here


----------



## T & P (Jul 28, 2015)

ddraig said:


> didn't take long!!


What didn't? Comments about the alleged vibrancy of a new structure? Or the response to such comments?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 28, 2015)

someone pick pick picking trying to find holes


----------



## Belushi (Jul 28, 2015)

organicpanda said:


> wtf is soccer



English slang for Association Football.


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2015)

T & P said:


> What didn't? Comments about the alleged vibrancy of a new structure? Or the response to such comments?


You know exactly what it is you're doing. Stop now please.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 28, 2015)

editor said:


> It looks like a whole new era of vibrancy is coming to the neighbours as the car park gets built over for what looks like another stage (temporary, I hope):
> 
> View attachment 74581 View attachment 74582



"Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life."


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 28, 2015)

Belushi said:


> English slang for Association Football.


more precisely Oxford University slang


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 29, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> ........ soccer
> 
> http://www.soccerbible.com/competitions/play-for-soccerbible-at-the-adidas-brixton-base-event/


soccer? sorry, what's that?


----------



## leanderman (Jul 29, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> soccer? sorry, what's that?



Precisely. It should be soccerball


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Precisely. It should be soccerball


give it a few years


----------



## organicpanda (Jul 29, 2015)

my first thought was it was new way for Jehovah's Witnesses to 'bring the good news' to Brixton


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 29, 2015)

"A unique partnership between Pop Brixton and global sports brand adidas..." blah blah blah.

"Pop Brixton’s heart is in the Brixton community and we’ve already seen the energy and creativity it’s bringing."


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 29, 2015)

Obviously it's massively heavily branded by addidas, and naturally they are rinsing every last drop of publicity they can get, but under all that, this part dont seem so bad. Theres a chance for local kids to get a bit of footy training and play in a competition, and a bit of support for a local radio show. More like this I hope.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 29, 2015)

And here is Jacko's take on it.


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Obviously it's massively heavily branded by addidas, and naturally they are rinsing every last drop of publicity they can get, but under all that, this part dont seem so bad. Theres a chance for local kids to get a bit of footy training and play in a competition, and a bit of support for a local radio show. More like this I hope.


Yes, it's great that there's sporting facilities but the whole Pop thing seems to be running in any random direction that suits Lambeth and with little regard to what was originally promised, or much in the way of community consultation.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 29, 2015)

Pretty good they've managed to get Adidas to run a load of free football sessions for local kids


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 29, 2015)

I wonder why Brixton Rec couldn't be used for the football sessions? It would seem to have more space, changing facilities etc.


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Pretty good they've managed to get Adidas to run a load of free football sessions for local kids


It's a nice deal for Adidas too, although where the inevitable heavy corporate branding fits in with the 'community-led green oasis' hyperbole is anyone's guess.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 29, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, it's great that there's sporting facilities but the whole Pop thing seems to be running in any random direction that suits Lambeth and with little regard to what was originally promised, or much in the way of community consultation.


I absolutely agree with you, and this is hardly community spirit at work, the free advertising, plus the fact that you have sign up with your e-mail to join the sessions will make it worth every penny adidas invests in it, but at least it is something, all be it a very small thing in the right direction. In as much as local kids will get some footy training.


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> I absolutely agree with you, and this is hardly community spirit at work, the free advertising, plus the fact that you have sign up with your e-mail to join the sessions will make it worth every penny adidas invests in it, but at least it is something, all be it a very small thing in the right direction. In as much as local kids will get some footy training.


Shame that they couldn't have got Bryan Hall from Peckham Town FC involved. He's tirelessly committed years of work to nurturing real community football. 
Celebrating Peckham Town FC: real grassroots community football


----------



## T & P (Jul 29, 2015)

If Pop Brixton discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see complaints in here about all those billions of innocent, tiny, defenceless viruses being mercilessly killed.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 29, 2015)

T & P said:


> If Pop Brixton discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see complaints in here about all those billions of innocent, tiny, defenceless viruses being mercilessly killed.





It just seems odd that the Council owned business park for 21st Century is hosting football training sessions, when right next door is the Council owned flagship sports centre - which is currently looking for a £6m investment.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 29, 2015)

It is indeed very heavily branding-oriented when you look at the t&cs.



> The winners and their Team Mates must wear the Kit as the outermost layer of clothing and must not wear any items of clothing or accessories which clearly display a competitor logo at all times whilst participating in all Tournament matches.





> By entering the Competition, you agree to grant an irrevocable and royalty free licence to the Promoter to use your name, photograph, video, voice recording and general location for publicity, news and promotional purposes in any and all media during this and any future promotions or advertising.



I'd rather pay a little extra council tax and have kids enjoy sports events without these kinds of conditions imposed on them.

However I guess Lambeth reckons on most of their taxpayers not agreeing with that.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 29, 2015)

T & P said:


> If Pop Brixton discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see complaints in here about all those billions of innocent, tiny, defenceless viruses being mercilessly killed.


If Pop Brixton created a new virus to rival Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see people defending them in here!


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It is indeed very heavily branding-oriented when you look at the t&cs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those conditions are fucking awful. Basically: if you want to join in then you will become a heavily branded piece of corporate marketing which we shall then exploit as much as we like and never pay you a penny.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 29, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I guess Lambeth reckons on most of their taxpayers not agreeing with that.



............ or not reading the small print


----------



## deadringer (Jul 29, 2015)

T & P said:


> If Pop Brixton discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see complaints in here about all those billions of innocent, tiny, defenceless viruses being mercilessly killed.




........and moaning that it was sponsored by GlaxoSmithKline


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2015)

T & P said:


> If Pop Brixton discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see complaints in here about all those billions of innocent, tiny, defenceless viruses being mercilessly killed.



If editor discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at you and other whining, puling windbags having a go at him on the same score.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> It just seems odd that the Council owned business park for 21st Century is hosting football training sessions, when right next door is the Council owned flagship sports centre - which is currently looking for a £6m investment.



It's not odd, it's precedent-setting with a bit of stage-management thrown in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2015)

editor said:


> Those conditions are fucking awful. Basically: if you want to join in then you will become a heavily branded piece of corporate marketing which we shall then exploit as much as we like and never pay you a penny.



Unfortunately they're also pretty standard with regard to big business sponsoring "community" concerns. They not only get their pound of flesh, they take as much extra as they can get away with.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 29, 2015)




----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 29, 2015)

Brixton Splash at Pop Brixton


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 29, 2015)

It's a bit of advertising  ￼


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It's a bit of advertising  ￼


What is?


----------



## BigMoaner (Jul 29, 2015)

ebola.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It's a bit of advertising  ￼


easy now! 
Nanker is just passing on the info
calm down


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> I wonder why Brixton Rec couldn't be used for the football sessions? It would seem to have more space, changing facilities etc.



Maybe because it also has well established football training run by Steadman. His not for profit organisation Afewee has been doing this for years. As well as boxing training for young people.

But that does not fit into Cllr Jacko and Pop Brixton narrative that Pop is bringing all this to Brixton.  That big buck Adidas sponsorship was needed to kick start this off.

If I am correct this Adidas football event is just over a few days. Its not long term like Afewee. Which is rooted in the community for the long haul.

"Creatives" in advertising have now realised that tv adverts are not enough. This kind of event is like product placement. Its a way of developing a relationship with the customer and the brand. Adidas will come out looking caring and sharing out of this for little outlay in $. The creatives running this campaign for Adidas will be making sure that it all over social media. Which they now see as best way to get media coverage. Its about creating a relationship between customer and the brand. To sell a product in a saturated market its about making the brand signify things to the buyer. Not just that the shoe does the job.


----------



## T & P (Jul 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> If editor discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at you and other whining, puling windbags having a go at him on the same score.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 29, 2015)

On closer inspection, turns out you have to be 16 or over to enter, and if you are 16 in the 2v2's your team mate must be 18. So not really doin it for the kids at all. I take back the rather muted enthusiasm i had for this, at first i thought it was the usual marketing bollocks with a little bit of community throwback, in fact its just a load of marketing bollocks.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> And here is Jacko's take on it.



Nice of Jacko to mention Lambeth home grown talent. 

He does not say that Clyne came up through Steadmans Afewee football training. 



> Lambeth has already produced a number of home grown England players – Kieron Gibbs grew up in Kennington and Nathaniel Clyne is from Stockwell. Maybe the next England star is out there waiting to be discovered.



Nor is Brixton Rec or  Steadman given any credit in Jackos article. Instead:



> You might be counting the days until the football season kicks off or are simply inspired by England’s women footballers World Cup performance but if you’ve ever fancied a go at improving your football skills, Pop Brixton’s the place to be.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> On closer inspection, turns out you have to be 16 or over to enter, and if you are 16 in the 2v2's your team mate must be 18. So not really doin it for the kids at all. I take back the rather muted enthusiasm i had for this, at first i thought it was the usual marketing bollocks with a little bit of community throwback, in fact its just a load of marketing bollocks.



New Labour types like Jacko love marketing bollocks. They cream themselves at the slightest opportunity to show the benefits of working with multinational business.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 29, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


>







> @Jason_Cobb @BrixtonRec They approached @PopBrixton but we'll get lots of youth sport opp's for groups like @afeweefootball @Street_League
> 
> — Jack Hopkins (@JackHopkins_Lab) July 29, 2015



As posters here are beginning to realise the benefits are more likely to be for Adidas.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 30, 2015)

Looking around to see who Adidas use for advertising.

They recently have got 72andSunny


> Jocelyn Robiot, adidas Senior Vice President Brand Management. "Our communication strategy moving forward will be relentless and aggressive storytelling, so that we can take our expression of sport to the next level.




Here is one from Sunny going on about "Brand Citizenship"



> *Why is that consumer connection so important? *
> The short version is millennials stand for more, want more and want to purchase brands that have meaning. It's really not just millennials. It's all of us that have access to all the same toolsets. Within five years, 80 percent of all adults on the planet will have a smartphone. We have access to information that's transparent. We can find out what companies are doing. We can be vocal about that. We can share our views. So bad practices will be punished and great practices will be celebrated. In this case celebration mean purchases.



All this fits in well with the "Third Way". Ad people can get quite messianic about the great things that media agencies can do. Note last sentence "celebration means purchases".

Millennials btw is ad jargon for the generation Y thats those born 1980s to early 2000s. The demographic that use Pop. Not surprising that creatives approached Pop and not the other way around. They make it their business to keep up with the lastest thing.


----------



## madolesance (Jul 30, 2015)

The 'Adidas' deal was pretty much done even before 'Pop Brixton' opened. If anyone has the minutes/ recording of the Q+A that happened at Market House then it'll be quiet clear this is the sort of thing they (Phillipe/ Jack) all ways had planned for.


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2015)

So an _Adidas branded_ green oasis co-run with property developers, then.


----------



## madolesance (Jul 30, 2015)

editor said:


> So an _Adidas branded_ green oasis co-run with property developers, then.



Yes, that is what was being suggested at the Q+A. Not allow a brand to take a unit but take the cash and allow them to USE the space. Looks like they have got a payday.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 30, 2015)

Meanwhile it looks like a bit of a Pop reverse ferret for Ted X Brixton. Much was made of the autumn event being staged at Pop.

It now seems that Ted X likes the old school approach of Brixton Rec.

I wonder what happened here?


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Meanwhile it looks like a bit of a Pop reverse ferret for Ted X Brixton. Much was made of the autumn event being staged at Pop.
> 
> It now seems that Ted X likes the old school approach of Brixton Rec.
> 
> I wonder what happened here?


I've just mailed them.


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2015)

Just passed a big from crew filming someone in Adidas sports gear showing off their football skills by Electric Avenue.

 I'm guessing it's a promo for the Adidas Soccer School at Pop or whatever it's called.


----------



## gdubz (Jul 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Just passed a big from crew filming someone in Adidas sports gear showing off their football skills by Electric Avenue.
> 
> I'm guessing it's a promo for the Adidas Soccer School at Pop or whatever it's called.


Just passed a small film crew filming someone rapping on station road. No visible sponsorship but they were wearing a lot of gold and stood outside the pawnbroker so maybe it was more subtle.


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2015)

The film crew - who had so much gear they were wheeling along a shopping trolley type device - had started filming outside A&C when I passed by again.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 30, 2015)

bloody film crews coming around here....and....like....filming stuff happening....!!!!


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> bloody film crews coming around here....and....like....filming stuff happening....!!!!


They're often not filming stuff happening these days, only themselves. They're only here to film whatever thing it is they're trying to promote with Brixton providing the 'edgy' and 'vibrant' backdrop.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 30, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Meanwhile it looks like a bit of a Pop reverse ferret for Ted X Brixton. Much was made of the autumn event being staged at Pop.
> 
> It now seems that Ted X likes the old school approach of Brixton Rec.
> 
> I wonder what happened here?



So do I. Thanks for this. First time I heard about this. Will let Brixton Rec Users Group know. 

Its coming at time when Rec needs major refurbishment. The Rec is important part of Brixton for many. But from a completely different background to Pop. 

I see the theme for Brixton Ted talks is "Kaleidoscope" 

The thing that a lot of people like about Rec is that its where a cross section of Brixton and Lambeth meet. It personifies the best of the "Kaleidoscope" of Brixton/ London. It was designed and built in the post war spirit of good facilities for all. An egalitarian ethos. One that is more inspiring that Pop.

If Ted is going to do this in an iconic building like the Rec some recognition of this should be part of the talks.


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2015)

Spoke to the Tedx people today - they said that they had to move out of Pop because there wasn't as much space as they expected.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Spoke to the Tedx people today - they said that they had to move out of Pop because there wasn't as much space as they expected.



Too many corporate clad footballers.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 30, 2015)

It's one thing letting hipster popups in, but this is just a blatant corporate sell-out. Who runs pop brixton anyway?


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's one thing letting hipster popups in, but this is just a blatant corporate sell-out. Who runs pop brixton anyway?


One of the main movers is the guy from Brixton Green


----------



## teuchter (Jul 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> It was designed and built in the post war spirit of good facilities for all. An egalitarian ethos. One that is more inspiring that Pop.



Agree with this. The Rec is a great building.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

£5 for an average ale in a flimsy plastic glass stood next to some blokes with their collars up and jumpers wrapped around their necks. Pop ain't for me.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

Edgy multi-million, "luxury shared living" property development company logo! It's made of nails!


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 31, 2015)

Jacko on the jobs fair.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> View attachment 74721
> 
> Edgy multi-million, "luxury shared living" property development company logo! It's made of nails!



is the 'e" on the end of collective meant to look lke £ sign ?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> View attachment 74721
> 
> Edgy multi-million, "luxury shared living" property development company logo! It's made of nails!



Had a quick look round their website, and they can guff it up all they want, but basically they are estate agents. that is all.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 31, 2015)

T & P said:


> If Pop Brixton discovered a cure for Ebola tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see complaints in here about all those billions of innocent, tiny, defenceless viruses being mercilessly killed.



In the world of laboured analogies, welcome to the Siberian sector!  

There really isn't enough facepalm.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> So an _Adidas branded_ green oasis co-run with property developers, then.



How could anyone possibly have an issue with that? Unless they are shameless enemies of change!


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

Some more prices from last night:
Bottled Red Stripe  = £7.50 pint. 
Alhambra Reserva = £7.50 a bottle (price at Tesco = £1.50)


----------



## Belushi (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> Some more prices from last night:
> Bottled Red Stripe  = £7.50 pint.
> Alhambra Reserva = £7.50 a bottle (price at Tesco = £1.50)



Crikey!


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 31, 2015)

Christ.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

Here's the list in case anyone doubts it - a Red Stripe subby is half a pint.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 31, 2015)

At those prices, the security is probably to keep punters _in_.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 31, 2015)

Is the Red Stripe/Guinness price of £4.50 for a pint of draught? (same manufacturer/distributor by the way)  

Also anyone know what the Hanoi & Saigon bottles go for in the bar at the back?


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Is the Red Stripe/Guinness price of £4.50 for a pint of draught? (same manufacturer/distributor by the way)
> 
> Also anyone know what the Hanoi & Saigon bottles go for in the bar at the back?


Yes. But the Red Stripe draught was off. 

I still can't get over paying £5 for an average ale in a shitty plastic glass. It's a fucking rip off.


----------



## isvicthere? (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> I still can't get over paying £5 for an average ale in a shitty plastic glass. It's a fucking rip off.



Or is it - as some on this thread might assert - _progress_?


----------



## CH1 (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes. But the Red Stripe draught was off.
> I still can't get over paying £5 for an average ale in a shitty plastic glass. It's a fucking rip off.


For comparison Imperial College students union bar is £3.80 a pint - though you only need a plastic "glass" if you go outside.
Doesn't compare favourably with prices in my student days - but even then a lot of plastic glasses around.


----------



## T & P (Jul 31, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Or is it - as some on this thread might assert - _progress_?


I can't think of a single person who would describe it as such.

Unfortunately, £5+ beers have been the norm in the overwhelming majority of pubs across London, including Brixton, for quite a long time now, as has been the issuing of plastic glasses for drinking at many (though not all) outdoor areas. These are by no means 'innovations' by Pop Brixton.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes. But the Red Stripe draught was off.
> 
> I still can't get over paying £5 for an average ale in a shitty plastic glass. It's a fucking rip off.



Of course it is, making hay whilst the sun shines, in a couple of months when its a cold pissy evening, it wont matter if its £2 or £10 a pint, aint noone going to want to be there. The sunshine and the crowds flatter it, soon it will look exactly what it is.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

T & P said:


> I can't think of a single person who would describe it as such.
> 
> Unfortunately, £5+ beers have been the norm in the overwhelming majority of pubs across London, including Brixton, for quite a long time now, as has been the issuing of plastic glasses for drinking at many (though not all) outdoor areas. These are by no means 'innovations' by Pop Brixton.


Not sure where you go drinking in Brixton, but weak 3.8% ales at £5+ are certainly not the 'norm' for me. And when it's being served up outdoors in a cheap plastic glass with barely any seating, it's indefensible pricing.

This is what I drank; Beatnik Pale Ale. You can get it for £3.50 pint.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

I've given up trying to work out what Pop is supposed to be, but last night it was just one big trendy drinking hangout for those who can afford their prices. Everyone was drinking. Take away the booze and the place would be just about deserted. 

Maybe they should just rename it Pub Brixton at night and be done with it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> £5 for an average ale in a flimsy plastic glass stood next to some blokes with their collars up and jumpers wrapped around their necks. Pop ain't for me.



Frankly though, shouldn't one *expect* popped collars in Pop Brixton?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> is the 'e" on the end of collective meant to look lke £ sign ?



I doubt it. Fate, however, has fortuitously placed a knot exactly where it projects The Collective's true intent.


----------



## Winot (Jul 31, 2015)

People drinking. In Brixton. Whatever next.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 31, 2015)

That is expensive beer no matter where your heads at. At Street Feast in That London's trendy Dalston the beers are only £3.50 for a Moretti, 330ml bottle.


----------



## Manter (Jul 31, 2015)

Are popped collars still a thing?

Am I showing my age/unfashionableness?


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

Winot said:


> People drinking. In Brixton. Whatever next.


In a community led, horticulturally themed green oasis run by out-of-town property developers. Whatever next indeed!

That new Adidas corporate PR hub is _fucking huge_, by the way. It's taller than Pop itself.

They must have accidentally left it off the plans.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jul 31, 2015)

Winot said:


> People drinking. In Brixton. Whatever next.



It's the cost of the beer thats being discussed, not prohibition


----------



## ddraig (Jul 31, 2015)

Winot said:


> People drinking. In Brixton. Whatever next.


such a wanker, oh dear


----------



## Winot (Jul 31, 2015)

ddraig said:


> such a wanker, oh dear



Good to see that the curtailing of personal attacks is being so successful.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 31, 2015)

Winot said:


> Good to see that the curtailing of personal attacks is being so successful.


whatevs, prob get a warning, maybe you shouldn't be so predictably dull and transparent all.of.the.time.
meh


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 31, 2015)

Let's all be nice polite bunnies shall we?

I have to say that mediocre beer for a fiver in a plastic glass which you can drink sitting on a crate surrounded by twats sounds pretty standard for many up-and-coming cunt palaces around London. They'll have to up their game if they want to remain relevant in the bellend community. Perhaps put in some homeless spikes to stop you loitering in unapproved areas.


----------



## T & P (Jul 31, 2015)

Nor that £5 for beer seems to be much more expensive to me than countless other licenced premises, but presumably this is not the only establishment within Pop Brixton selling alcohol.

Do we know what other Pop retailers are charging? Because if we do not, it does not seem terribly logical to dismiss an entire market or venue because of the prices charged by _one_ retailer within it, anymore than it would dissing Brixton Market because one trader sells overpriced produce.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 31, 2015)

I only saw one bar when I was there. Even if there are other retailers selling booze I hardly think they're going to be doing a price war, given the size of the place.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

T & P said:


> Nor that £5 for beer seems to be much more expensive to me than countless other licenced premises, but presumably this is not the only establishment within Pop Brixton selling alcohol.
> 
> Do we know what other Pop retailers are charging? Because if we do not, it does not seem terribly logical to dismiss an entire market or venue because of the prices charged by one retailer within it, anymore than it would dissing Brixton Market because one trader sells overpriced produce.


I'm afraid you're on a sticky wicket here with this argument. It's all one big rip off.

I've just given you the prices from two establishments - the board I posted up was from the unit nearest the door, while the Brixton Port Authority charged me £5 for my plastic glass. And if you think that is a rip off, Donostia Social Club charge £6.50 for a bottle of 'Spanish Craft beer.'

Good luck finding anything cheaper...


----------



## ddraig (Jul 31, 2015)

T & P said:


> Nor that £5 for beer seems to be much more expensive to me than countless other licenced premises, but presumably this is not the only establishment within Pop Brixton selling alcohol.
> 
> Do we know what other Pop retailers are charging? Because if we do not, it does not seem terribly logical to dismiss an entire market or venue because of the prices charged by _one_ retailer within it, anymore than it would dissing Brixton Market because one trader sells overpriced produce.


going by the arguments of some it is commonplace and perfectly acceptable price these days!!
where's the issue?


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

Where are all these pubs in Brixton charging over £5 for a pint of ordinary ale?


----------



## T & P (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> Where are all these pubs in Brixton charging over £5 for a pint of ordinary ale?


Not being an ale drinker I couldn't comment. But I'm pretty certain most venues that don't have 'Wetherspoons' written on their name sign will charge you the very best part of a fiver for a pint of lager that isn't a certain weak Australian offering nobody drinks anyway.

A 30p-odd price difference for a pint of lager will not be a deal breaker for the overwhelming majority of people Intending to go out for a drink.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

T & P said:


> Not being an ale drinker I couldn't comment. But I'm pretty certain most venues that don't have 'Wetherspoons' written on their name sign will charge you the very best part of a fiver for a pint of lager that isn't a certain weak Australian offering nobody drinks anyway.


Not sure why you're so keen to defend this rip-off pricing that you're starting to shift the goalposts around, but the fact remains that there are plenty of pubs in Brixton selling ales and lagers for way under £5.

Moreover, in a pub you get to drink from an actual glass and usually get a comfortable seat inside in the warm rather having to stand outside squeezing a flimsy plastic container: all rather important elements when you're totting up value for money, I would have thought.

Shame you didn't manage to answer my question directly too.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 31, 2015)

T & P said:


> But I'm pretty certain most venues that don't have 'Wetherspoons' written on their name sign will charge you the very best part of a fiver for a pint of lager that isn't a certain weak Australian offering nobody drinks anyway.



I was taken as a guest to the 20/20 cricket at the oval, pints of above average ale in a plastic came in at £4.80
and trust me this was a proper yup-fest with the usual bar cartel scenario you get at corporate events.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 31, 2015)

We had a good mooch around Shoreditch this evening. It soon became clear why Brixton is so popular now. With a few exceptions the food offerings up there are mainly of the burger/hot dog/Mexican/ pizza/pulled pork cliche. Even the authentic Vietnamese restaurants I used to eat in for a song 15 years ago have become safe, expensive and only ok.

The food in Brixton is much much better quality, the choice is incredible and the people selling it are so sincere about what they are doing. Shoreditch in the main is all about cashing in on the latest trend, in the main in Brixton they are all passion and love for the food they are putting out.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> The food in Brixton is much much better quality, the choice is incredible and the people selling it are so sincere about what they are doing. Shoreditch in the main is all about cashing in on the latest trend, in the main in Brixton they are all passion and love for the food they are putting out.


That's the kind of PR twaddle they used to say about Shoreditch. And everything you're slagging the area off about will happen to Brixton in time. That's the nature of foodie fashion and the areas are already merging into one bland crosstown identity.

You tell me what looks 'Brixton' about Pop. It could be anywhere.


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## Tricky Skills (Jul 31, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I was taken as a guest to the 20/20 cricket at the oval, pints of above average ale in a plastic came in at £4.80
> and trust me this was a proper yup-fest with the usual bar cartel scenario you get at corporate events.



It's £3.70 a pint for Members at The Oval. That's proper Establishment Member's Pavilion at The Oval.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 31, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> It's £3.70 a pint for Members at The Oval. That's proper Establishment Member's Pavilion at The Oval.


how does one become a member ?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 31, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> how does one become a member ?



Over here. £194 a season remains a bargain for County membership. This covers all t20, Royal London and Championship matches. Plus cheap beer


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2015)

And now they're charging £2 entry on Sunday and you have to bring along ID to get in. 


> Pop Brixton have spoken today to Brixton Splash who have had little support from many of the businesses that will benefit from the festival along with security.
> 
> Pop will charge a £2 adult cover.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> And now they're charging £2 entry on Sunday and you have to bring along ID to get in.



"Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life."


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 31, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Over here. £194 a season remains a bargain for County membership. This covers all t20, Royal London and Championship matches. Plus cheap beer


Thanks. a bit out my price range unfortunately. As an aside I have a mate, an anarchist traveller, who is a paid up member at lords, he comes up for the test every year, he tells me ones seniority is judged by some according to depth and colour of beer stains on the silk club tie.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 31, 2015)

editor said:


> That's the kind of PR twaddle they used to say about Shoreditch. And everything you're slagging the area off about will happen to Brixton in time. That's the nature of foodie fashion and the areas are already merging into one bland crosstown identity.
> 
> You tell me what looks 'Brixton' about Pop. It could be anywhere.


Except it's not PR twaddle. It's my honest opinion.

I'm not slagging off Shoreditch , I'm telling it factually as it is, and why Brixton in comparison is much better for food at the moment. 

Nothing looks Brixton about Pop. But it's in Brixton and there is cracking food being sold in there. Which is one of the reasons Brixton is so popular at the moment.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jul 31, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Thanks. a bit out my price range unfortunately. As an aside I have a mate, an anarchist traveller, who is a paid up member at lords, he comes up for the test every year, he tells me ones seniority is judged by some according to depth and colour of beer stains on the silk club tie.



Going off topic but anyone can enter The Oval for free after the tea break during a Championship match. This is usually around 3:45pm. The main gates will be open. Just walk straight in. You will get around two hours of play. You can bring your own booze


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## brixtonblade (Jul 31, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Going off topic but anyone can enter The Oval for free after the tea break during a Championship match. This is usually around 3:45pm. The main gates will be open. Just walk straight in. You will get around two hours of play. You can bring your own booze


Wow - I can't believe I didn't know that.  That's an awesome tip.


----------



## Maharani (Jul 31, 2015)

Half a pound of tuppenny rice, Half a pound of treacle. That's the way the money goes, POP goes the weasel...


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## Mr Retro (Jul 31, 2015)

While we are comparing prices - £3.80 for a pint in the Canterbury. And Brian will provide you with a free criticism of your general appearance /place of birth/ chosen football team/ etc


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2015)

Manter said:


> Are popped collars still a thing?
> 
> Am I showing my age/unfashionableness?



For some rugger bugger and pseudo-rugger bugger types, they're very definitely a (cringe-making for the rest of us) thing.


----------



## AnotherAmbition (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> Nor that £5 for beer seems to be much more expensive to me than countless other licenced premises, but presumably this is not the only establishment within Pop Brixton selling alcohol.
> 
> Do we know what other Pop retailers are charging? Because if we do not, it does not seem terribly logical to dismiss an entire market or venue because of the prices charged by _one_ retailer within it, anymore than it would dissing Brixton Market because one trader sells overpriced produce.



Most of the food retailers are selling good beers from the region that matches their food for 3,50 a bottle. 

The notion that booze in pop is overpriced vs other pubs\restaurants \venues in Brixton or the rest of London is complete misinformation designed to discredit.

Yes beer has become far too expensive in this city but to use that to suggest pop is exclusive vs other venues is simply not true


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

AnotherAmbition said:


> Yes beer has become far too expensive in this city but to use that to suggest pop is exclusive vs other venues is simply not true


Eh? The prices I've posted from the biggest bars there are factual. And I even posted up a photo of the board that showed that a pint of Red Stripe in bottles will indeed cost you £7.50. And that, my friend, is a fucking rip off, however you spin it.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

Recent research: Brixton bars that serve ale/lager_ in a glass_ for well under a fiver: Albert, Queens Head, Effra Social, Effra Hall Tavern, Windmill. I'm actually struggling to think of any pub in Brixton where the beers start from £5. Apart from Pop of course.


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## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

The glass issue might be out of the retailer's hands, and in any case it is a fairly widespread practice on many, many. many pubs across London with outside drinking areas.

What difference in price are we talking about for these "well under a fiver" lagers, if you happen to know/ remember them? I wouldn't expect you to remember what brands are being offered as well of course, but as I said before I very much doubt most people who like beer would choose to buy the likes of Fosters in a pub, so having that brand on sale for £4 or thereabouts when every other lager available is much closer to to the £5 mark is not a good example of a cheap pub IMO.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

ah it's gone from 30p to a £1! 
a pahnd only a pahnd extra yer beeers


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## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Eh? The prices I've posted from the biggest bars there are factual. And I even posted up a photo of the board that showed that a pint of Red Stripe in bottles will indeed cost you £7.50. And that, my friend, is a fucking rip off, however you spin it.


At those particular retailers, perhaps. But if there are indeed beers being sold at £3.50 a bottle in Pop, it is certainly incorrect to label the entire place as a rip off, because £3.50 for a bottled later is on a par with (and I suspect in some cases cheaper than), the overwhelming majority of pubs and bars in Brixton and elsewhere in London.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> Not being an ale drinker I couldn't comment. But I'm pretty certain most venues that don't have 'Wetherspoons' written on their name sign will charge you the very best part of a fiver for a pint of lager that isn't a certain weak Australian offering nobody drinks anyway.
> 
> A 30p-odd price difference for a pint of lager will not be a deal breaker for the overwhelming majority of people Intending to go out for a drink.


up 70p in one page!
wriggle wriggle


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> At those particular retailers, perhaps. But if there are indeed beers being sold at £3.50 a bottle in Pop, it is certainly incorrect to label the entire place as a rip off, because £3.50 for a bottled later is on a par with (and I suspect in some cases cheaper than), the overwhelming majority of pubs and bars in Brixton and elsewhere in London.


you are all over the shop!


----------



## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

ddraig said:


> ah it's gone from 30p to a £1!
> a pahnd only a pahnd extra yer beeers


I've no idea if it is a Pound. I am asking what the difference might be. And frankly, it would not matter if Fosters was being sold even at 25p a pint if every other later was being sold at £4.70, for few people would choose it.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> ...but as I said before I very much doubt most people who like beer would choose to buy the likes of Fosters in a pub, so having that brand on sale for £4 or thereabouts when every other lager available is much closer to to the £5 mark is not a good example of a cheap pub IMO.


Bloody hell - I can't keep up with your ever shifting goalposts here! 

But FYI, my drinks were around £3.80 and under last night. I wasn't drinking Fosters. What do you think about Pop's Red Stripe Stubbies going for £7.50 a pint. Sound reasonable to you?


----------



## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

ddraig said:


> up 70p in one page!
> wriggle wriggle


See #3025


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> See #3025


what, that you have no idea?
but keep pick pick picking at posts of ed that do have an idea and evidence?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> I've no idea if it is a Pound. I am asking what the difference might be. And frankly, it would not matter if Fosters was being sold even at 25p a pint if every other later was being sold at £4.70, for few people would choose it.


Why are you obsessed with Fosters? Either way, you're talking utter bollocks about people not choosing it - Fosters is in fact the second most popular beer in the UK!



> Foster's annual sales amount to around 5 million hectolitres worldwide, largely buoyed by UK sales, where it is the second highest selling beer after Carling.[3]


----------



## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you are all over the shop!


How so? Are you suggesting £3.50 is expensive for bottled beer?

If bottled beer is available from a number of retailers at Pop Brixton at £3.50, then it is completely inaccurate to describe *Pop Brixton *as a rip-off, anymore than it would be describing the shops of Coldharbour Lane or the streets traders of Electric Avenue as rip-off merchants because *some* of them are charging far more than average. Do you not agree with that?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> If bottled beer is available from a number of retailers at Pop Brixton at £3.50


Which ones?







And what do you think of the bars I've already listed selling Bottled Red Stripe at £7.50 pint, Alhambra at £7.50 a bottle (price at Tesco = £1.50) and £6.50 for a bottle of 'Spanish Craft beer'?

Rip off, do you reckon?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> How so? Are you suggesting £3.50 is expensive for bottled beer?
> 
> If bottled beer is available from a number of retailers at Pop Brixton at £3.50, then it is completely inaccurate to describe *Pop Brixton *as a rip-off, anymore than it would be describing the shops of Coldharbour Lane or the streets traders of Electric Avenue as rip-off merchants because *some* of them are charging far more than average. Do you not agree with that?


you've gone from £5 is reasonble and commonplace, through only 30p difference to a £1 and now arguing the toss about a tiny bottle for £3.50
wriggling and goal post shuffling of the highest order
anything anything ANYTHING to prove pop is reasonable and to score a point against ed, anything
it's very transparent and pathetic imo

e2a - ah you edited, well done...


----------



## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

ddraig said:


> what, that you have no idea?
> but keep pick pick picking at posts of ed that do have an idea and evidence?


What on earth are you on about? 

I have asked if Editor knows the actual difference in price between the "well under a fiver" lagers and those sold at Pop Brixton, so I can assess how significant a difference in price there might be.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> How so? Are you suggesting £3.50 is expensive for bottled beer?
> 
> If bottled beer is available from a number of retailers at Pop Brixton at £3.50, then it is completely inaccurate to describe *Pop Brixton *as a rip-off, anymore than it would be describing the shops of Coldharbour Lane or the streets traders of Electric Avenue as rip-off merchants because *some* of them are charging far more than average. Do you not agree with that?


if one shop on Coldharbour lane sold stella cans for a pahnd and another sold them for 2 pahnd, which one is taking the piss? and what would the people buying the 2 pahnd ones be?


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> If bottled beer is available from a number of retailers at Pop Brixton at £3.50, then it is completely inaccurate to describe *Pop Brixton *as a rip-off, anymore than it would be describing the shops of Coldharbour Lane or the streets traders of Electric Avenue as rip-off merchants because *some* of them are charging far more than average. Do you not agree with that?


I can get cans and bottles for under a quid around Electric Avenue. Can I get that deal in Pop?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> What on earth are you on about?
> 
> I have asked if Editor knows the actual difference in price between the "well under a fiver" lagers and those sold at Pop Brixton, so I can assess how significant a difference in price there might be.


you keep making spurious claims about prices and other places and have not backed one of them up
then move on to another claim etc etc


----------



## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

ddraig said:


> you've gone from £5 is reasonble and commonplace, through only 30p difference to a £1 and now arguing the toss about a tiny bottle for £3.50
> wriggling and goal post shuffling of the highest order
> anything anything ANYTHING to prove pop is reasonable and to score a point against ed, anything
> it's very transparent and pathetic imo
> ...


£5 is commonplace amongst countless pubs and bars, yes. And a small difference in price does not make £5 a rip off by any fucking stretch of the imagination.

Questioning whether labelling *an entire market/ venue* composed of _many _traders as a rip of because of the prices of _some_ can be a correct assessment of the entire place is not about picking holes or scoring points at all. It is an extremely fair question. And if it is true that there are retailers selling bottled beer at £3.50, then it is certainly not correct to label the entire site as a rip-off.

I'm not the one wriggling or picking it up holes in here.


----------



## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Which ones?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think prices such as £7.50 for a bottle of Alhambra are an absolute rip-off, of course.

And if this were the only beer available for purchase at Pop Brixton, I would completely agree with you that Pop Brixton is a rip off. But that is not the case.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> £5 is commonplace amongst countless pubs and bars, yes. And a small difference in price does not make £5 a rip off by any fucking stretch of the imagination.
> 
> Questioning whether labelling *an entire market/ venue* composed of _many _traders as a rip of because of the prices of _some_ can be a correct assessment of the entire place is not about picking holes or scoring points at all. It is an extremely fair question. And if it is true that there are retailers selling bottled beer at £3.50, then it is certainly not correct to label the entire site as a rip-off.
> 
> I'm not the one wriggling or picking it up holes in here.


do you have a point? one you can back up?
or are you just shouting the odds and demanding evidence before shouting some more?
weird


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> And if this were the only beer available for purchase at Pop Brixton, I would completely agree with you that Pop Brixton is a rip off. But that is not the case.


£5 for a pint of average ale is a rip off. I can get the same (or similar) for £3.50 elsewhere - and that's in a proper pub.

What are the names of all these places selling bottles of beer for £3.50 in Pop, by the way? Can you find a pint cheaper than a fiver in there? If not it's a rip off, given that you're standing in the open air with wooden boxes for seats and drinking from a shit plastic glass.

Perhaps you can afford it, but I really don't pay £5 for session beers.


----------



## T & P (Aug 1, 2015)

editor said:


> £5 for a pint of average ale is a rip off. I can get the same (or similar) for £3.50 elsewhere - and that's in a proper pub.
> 
> What are the names of all these places selling bottles of beer for £3.50 in Pop, by the way? Can you find a pint cheaper than a fiver in there? If not it's a rip off, given that you're standing in the open air with wooden boxes for seats and drinking from a shit plastic glass.
> 
> Perhaps you can afford it, but I really don't pay £5 for session beers.


I completely sympathise with you about ale prices. As I said before I don't drink it and am completely unfamiliar with current prices anywhere. As a lager drinker, I don't consider £5 for a pint to be a rip-off, because it will be in line with or only marginally higher than prices in most pubs across London.

As for the prices of the bottled beer, I am only going by what was reported earlier in the thread. It could be a lie of course, but at this juncture I have no reason to believe it is a lie.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> As a lager drinker, I don't consider £5 for a pint to be a rip-off, because it will be in line with or only marginally higher than prices in most pubs across London.


So I'll ask again: what pubs in Brixton have lagers starting from £5+ (which was what you originally claimed, and then backtracked into a vaguer statement).


T & P said:


> As for the prices of the bottled beer, I am only going by what was reported earlier in the thread. It could be a lie of course, but at this juncture I have no reason to believe it is a lie.


What could be a lie? I posted up a photo of the prices on the board and  included links for the other prices. 

What are the names of all these places selling bottles of beer for £3.50 in Pop, by the way?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> I completely sympathise with you about ale prices. As I said before I don't drink it and am completely unfamiliar with current prices anywhere. As a lager drinker, I don't consider £5 for a pint to be a rip-off, because it will be in line with or only marginally higher than prices in most pubs across London.
> 
> As for the prices of the bottled beer, I am only going by what was reported earlier in the thread. It could be a lie of course, but at this juncture I have no reason to believe it is a lie.


30p or a pahnd difference?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 1, 2015)

Can't beleive this thread is over a 100 pages and has so many posts from people who don't live in or visit Brixton.

I've not visited Pop so far and no one has said anything that make me want to go there, yet. Eating out isn't my thing, nor are lagers or bottled beers in general - even the cheap ones.  Before I consign it to the ever growing list of places that obviously dont want the likes of me as a customer (as I'm an ale drinking older lesbian, with no photo ID on a limited beer budget)

So can someone who has actually been there, tell me:
Is there late night drinking at pop?
Do you need photo ID to get in?
Any sort of entertainment?
Are queer people welcome there?

Places in Brixton where I no longer feel welcome includes The Village, Market House, The Dogstar, The Albert, the Queens head, The Hoot. 
Add Pop to the list or should I try it first?


----------



## wurlycurly (Aug 1, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Can't beleive this thread is over a 100 pages and has so many posts from people who don't live in or visit Brixton.
> 
> I've not visited Pop so far and no one has said anything that make me want to go there, yet. Eating out isn't my thing, nor are lagers or bottled beers in general - even the cheap ones.  Before I consign it to the ever growing list of places that obviously dont want the likes of me as a customer (as I'm an ale drinking older lesbian, with no photo ID on a limited beer budget)
> 
> ...



I find it hard to believe that you're made to feel unwelcome in any of these places. Is it your sexuality, your age or your lack of cash that seems to be the problem?


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 1, 2015)

Retrieved this from a ditched thread but this is good; Pop ran a two day jobs fair

http://love.lambeth.gov.uk/pop-brixton-jobs-fair/


> Pop Brixton will be hosting a two day jobs fare on Monday 27 and Tuesday 28 July from 1pm till 4pm. This free event is aimed at Lambeth school and college leavers looking for support to find jobs, apprenticeships, traineeships, work experience as well as business advice from hospitality and fashion entrepreneurs who are based at Pop Brixton.



Anyone know how it went?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 1, 2015)

wurlycurly said:


> I find it hard to believe that you're made to feel unwelcome in any of these places. Is it your sexuality, your age or your lack of cash that seems to be the problem?


Why is it so hard to believe? What is your experience in those places? Where do all the old dykes go now?

Mostly lack of photo ID wouldn't get me in the door of so many local establishments.  I lack ID because I haven't had to prove my age for 30 years (and I don't drive) Also I'm not keen on being the oldest person in the room. Last time I went to the Dogstar I seemed to be the only person over 30. 

Outrageous sexism/ racism at the Queens Head, reported last year, made me question how welcome I would be there - then they introduced ID thing so haven't been since. 

Limited beer budget is a issue. I wondered about how welcome I was when the Albert (where I've drank since the '80s) only sell rubbish pale ale on draught for £4.90/5.10 a pint, no draught bitter, no draught Green King Ale and its a GK pub - presume they want to appeal to a younger richer crowd. 

I've experienced little homophobia in Brixton pubs (well not for years) but theres plenty on Brixton streets - so how is it as Pop?


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Here's the list in case anyone doubts it - a Red Stripe subby is half a pint View attachment 74724


just thinking about the pic here two things spring to mind

a while back we heard pop was applying for a license //www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/06/pop-brixton-applies-for-mon-fri-10am-1am-alcohol-licence-ahead-of-main-bar-opening-at-business-campus/ I wonder if the prices in ed's are those charged at pops own bar because if so any defence on the grounds of the cost of the lease must be open to question, in fact as a community enterprise shouldn't prices be subsidised for those on low income etc
if this is not the case the price list is a handy guide for anyone wanting to bring contraband into pop, last week red stripe stubbies were £1.29 in our local offy or do security search bags


----------



## wurlycurly (Aug 1, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Why is it so hard to believe? What is your experience in those places? Where do all the old dykes go now?
> 
> Mostly lack of photo ID wouldn't get me in the door of so many local establishments.  I lack ID because I haven't had to prove my age for 30 years (and I don't drive) Also I'm not keen on being the oldest person in the room. Last time I went to the Dogstar I seemed to be the only person over 30.
> 
> ...



I drink in the Albert, the Hoot, Market House and The Dogstar. I'd avoid all of them if they made skint old lesbians feel unwelcome and have seen no evidence of such an approach. I've only been in Pop once and found it utterly unbearable, although I'd be surprised if there was any anti-gay sentiment present.


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Why is it so hard to believe? What is your experience in those places? Where do all the old dykes go now?
> 
> Mostly lack of photo ID wouldn't get me in the door of so many local establishments.  I lack ID because I haven't had to prove my age for 30 years (and I don't drive) Also I'm not keen on being the oldest person in the room. Last time I went to the Dogstar I seemed to be the only person over 30.
> 
> ...


The ID thing was forced on many venues and it looks like we're going to be getting more and more of it. It's got nothing to do with proving your age - it's all about 'security.'

I find the Queen's Head by far the most diverse and tolerant pub in Brixton by a long chalk. I've not seen ID checks there for ages. I'd generally judge a place on the people that go there rather than the landlord. It was fantastic last night.

I don't think Pop is homophobic, just deeply bland. It's open till midnight/1am and you can stand about and drink their overpriced beers in the company of a crowd that reflects little of  Brixton's 'character.'


----------



## brixtonblade (Aug 1, 2015)

Trinity 4.25 for a kronembourg and it tastes lovely in beer garden 

Pop is OK I guess but not really my kind of place so won't be going much


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 1, 2015)

editor said:


> The ID thing was forced on many venues and it looks like we're going to be gettng more and more of it. It's got nothing to do with proving your age - it's all about 'security.'
> 
> I find the Queen's Head by far the most diverse and tolerant pub in Brixton by a long chalk. I've not seen ID checks there for ages. I'd generally judge a place on the people that go there rather than the landlord.


I don't think I know the landlord, sorry what do you mean?  I used to know some Half moon regulars who went there.  I read about a shocking 'cabaret' in the Standard - heard from some posters here who where insulted /affected - then nothing. I did ask about this at the time but no one answered me. Did something change or happen afterwards, if it did no news reached me. (no I don't twitter /fb)

Doesn't the Queen Head require ID to get in now?	Whether its about age or security doesn't make any difference - I don't have any and so can no longer go to some of my former late drinking haunts. Do you get asked for ID to get in places, and do you have any?   


Anyway - we digress. Back to my questions about Pop - does anyone know?


friendofdorothy said:


> Is there late night drinking at pop?
> Do you need photo ID to get in?
> Any sort of entertainment?
> Are queer people welcome there?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 1, 2015)

It's open till midnight or 1am I think.
I didn't get asked for ID on the one occasion i went (on a Saturday night).
The "entertainment" when i was there was a DJ.
I see know reason why queer people would be unwelcome. 

It is however a little bland and like similar things all over London (although it got better towards the end of the night).


----------



## Manter (Aug 1, 2015)

There is drinking till 12 or 1 depending on the night
You don't generally. We have never shown ID. 
Yes- differs night by night but it ranges from DJs to poetry readings (!). And during the day there are more family/kid friendly things.
Yes. My neighbour goes there a lot to pull. I think Friday/Saturday there are lots of people of all orientations on the pull. It made me feel a bit jealous


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2015)

AnotherAmbition said:


> Most of the food retailers are selling good beers from the region that matches their food for 3,50 a bottle.
> 
> The notion that booze in pop is overpriced vs other pubs\restaurants \venues in Brixton or the rest of London is complete misinformation designed to discredit.
> 
> Yes beer has become far too expensive in this city but to use that to suggest pop is exclusive vs other venues is simply not true



I'm sure your post is well-observed, but could you please quantify the following issues I have with it?

1) What do you mean by "most"?
2) Have you actually tested your claim re: Pop prices, or are you presenting what you've personally observed as being somehow acceptable as core data rather than as simple anecdote?
3) Why do you believe that "complete misinformation designed to discredit" is being deployed?
4) Are you able to substantiate any of your claims in any way at all? 

As a supplementary question, purely because I'm nosy,do you have any links to Pop Brixton?


----------



## brixtonblade (Aug 1, 2015)

I'm sad to report that the beer garden is now full of rugby dick heads


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> I'm sad to report that the beer garden is now full of rugby dick heads


Even sadder to report that a fucking enormous advert for Adidas is now gracing the side of Pop Brixton, the community "green oasis" aka The Corporate Billboard.



Here's the website:



https://www.basebrixton.com/


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 1, 2015)

Why doesn't the picture of the billboard have the word Adidas on it?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 1, 2015)

What is Base Brixton?


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 1, 2015)

A free football thing for kids run by Adidas


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 1, 2015)




----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> A free football thing for kids run by Adidas


Thanks, the menacing pics and CHAOS /CONTROL thing didn't really convey that to me.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> A free football thing for kids run by Adidas


Except for its not, go to the website and you will quickly see its a massive marketing campaign aimed at those 16 and over. so not free footy for kids at all. Its cynical marketing to the extreme, just read the terms and conditions, and the reality of it is revealed.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 1, 2015)

You say potato, I say 16 year old are kids


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 1, 2015)

And if you are 16 , you need an 18 year old as your team mate. Like I said, read the T&C, and why do you think Adidas are going to be altruistic


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 1, 2015)

I don't believe I ever said they would be. It's straightforward marketing. I just don't have an issue with that.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 1, 2015)

You said its a free football thing for kids run by adidas. 
I say its a cynical marketing ploy aimed at the minimum age a person may conceivably have disposable income of their own.
You can choose to not see my point if you so wish. Enjoy POP, it suits you.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 1, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> You said its a free football thing for kids run by adidas.
> I say its a cynical marketing ploy aimed at the minimum age a person may conceivably have disposable income of their own.
> You can choose to not see my point if you so wish. Enjoy POP, it suits you.



Yes, but if I'd said it was a "cynical marketing ploy aimed at the minimum age a person may conceivably have disposable income of their own", it wouldn't have answered FOD's question


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Why doesn't the picture of the billboard have the word Adidas on it?


You'll have to ask them, but it is indeed an advert for BaseBrixton which is an Adidas venture.


----------



## Angellic (Aug 1, 2015)

editor said:


> You'll have to ask them, but it is indeed an advert for BaseBrixton which is an Adidas venture.



We do believe you. Maybe it's a subliminal thing


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2015)

Angellic said:


> We do believe you. Maybe it's a subliminal thing


"We"? 

It's a statement of fact by the way. BaseBrixton is Adidas.


----------



## deadringer (Aug 1, 2015)

Are we seriously comparing the cost of two bottled beers at Pop (slightly over a pint) with the price of a pint at some other U75 approved  venue? Cracking stuff. There are plenty of reasons to hate Pop, many of them valid, but this is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

Bottled beer prices are a rip off anywhere. I have no idea who buys bottled beer or why. It's been a rip off since year dot, and will always be so.


----------



## Twattor (Aug 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> You say potato, I say 16 year old are kids


Christ. I wouldn't let you near a deep fat fryer. Please proceed directly to specsavers.


----------



## Maharani (Aug 1, 2015)

Manter said:


> There is drinking till 12 or 1 depending on the night
> You don't generally. We have never shown ID.
> Yes- differs night by night but it ranges from DJs to poetry readings (!). And during the day there are more family/kid friendly things.
> Yes. My neighbour goes there a lot to pull. I think Friday/Saturday there are lots of people of all orientations on the pull. It made me feel a bit jealous


So now Pop's a meat market?


----------



## Maharani (Aug 1, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm sure your post is well-observed, but could you please quantify the following issues I have with it?
> 
> 1) What do you mean by "most"?
> 2) Have you actually tested your claim re: Pop prices, or are you presenting what you've personally observed as being somehow acceptable as core data rather than as simple anecdote?
> ...


Yes I wondered the same to the last question.


----------



## Twattor (Aug 2, 2015)

Intimdated by and reluctant to enter the container park, but missing lovely taco couple of a Saturday afternoon. At least today we had small world urbanism to sate the cultural gap if not fill the stomach.


----------



## editor (Aug 2, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Are we seriously comparing the cost of two bottled beers at Pop (slightly over a pint) with the price of a pint at some other U75 approved  venue? Cracking stuff. There are plenty of reasons to hate Pop, many of them valid, but this is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel now.
> 
> Bottled beer prices are a rip off anywhere. I have no idea who buys bottled beer or why. It's been a rip off since year dot, and will always be so.


If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd learn we were talking about the £5 pint of standard ale, served in a crappy plastic glass. That is more than any pub in Brixton.

And what do do you think of £7.50 for a pint of bottled Red Stripe. Pay that often in pubs, do you? Think that's an appropriate price for a "pioneering new space created with the local community in mind"?

And as for this "U75 approved venue" bollocks. Grow up, FFS.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 2, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Are we seriously comparing the cost of two bottled beers at Pop (slightly over a pint) with the price of a pint at some other U75 approved  venue? Cracking stuff. There are plenty of reasons to hate Pop, many of them valid, but this is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel now.
> 
> Bottled beer prices are a rip off anywhere. I have no idea who buys bottled beer or why. It's been a rip off since year dot, and will always be so.



Exactly. Bottled beer is almost always bad value. I rarely buy it. 

The price list has two tap beers and six bottled beers at typical prices.

Why would anyone buy the two bottled beers that are wildly-weirdly overpriced?

Plus there are other options in Pop. 

I try to avoid spending £5 a pint - but prices are pretty close to that now, throughout London.


----------



## editor (Aug 2, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I try to avoid spending £5 a pint - but prices are pretty close to that now, throughout London.


The prices of similar session ales really are not "'pretty close" to £5 in most/all Brixton pubs, you know. Besides, Pop Brixton is supposed to be driven by some sort of community ethos, yet it's selling drinks at prices that are likely to exclude those on tight budgets. But then the whole 'green oasis' concept is a joke anyway.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 2, 2015)

And the pints on the board you pictured are £4.50. Which sounds reasonable.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 2, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And the pints on the board you pictured are £4.50. Which sounds reasonable.


do you know that they are pints?


----------



## editor (Aug 2, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And the pints on the board you pictured are £4.50. Which sounds reasonable.


Except they weren't serving any


----------



## leanderman (Aug 2, 2015)

editor said:


> Except they weren't serving any



Must be doing well then.


----------



## editor (Aug 2, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Must be doing well then.


That's one way to interpret the facts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Must be doing well then.



Or they've got crap stock control systems and/or don't have much of a clue about keg beers.


----------



## T & P (Aug 2, 2015)

It cannot be anything other than the worst possible case scenario.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 2, 2015)

It cannot be anything other than the best possible case scenario.


----------



## T & P (Aug 2, 2015)

ddraig said:


> It cannot be anything other than the best possible case scenario.


Why? Do you actually think there are dark forces at work and that the beer that was unavailable at the time of Editor's visit was anything other than them running out of it on the day?

Because of course pubs and bars running out of a particular beer is an extremely rare thing to happen. I've only seen it, like, every single time I've been to a pub.

In fact, I hadn't actually realised from the previous posts that pints of beer are actually available at Pop Brixton at the perfectly reasonable price of £4.50, even if it happened to be out at the time of Editor's visit.

So for the sake of clarity and the benefit of anyone reading this thread who might be unsure as to how expensive it is to drink at Pop, reasonably priced beer is being sold at Pop Brixton, subject, like everywhere else in the world, to availability.

And again: reasonably priced beer is being sold at Pop Brixton, subject, like everywhere else in the world, to availability.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 2, 2015)

T & P said:


> Why? Do you actually think there are dark forces at work and that the beer that was unavailable at the time of Editor's visit was anything other than them running out of it on the day?
> 
> Because of course pubs and bars running out of a particular beer is an extremely rare thing to happen. I've only seen it, like, every single time I've been to a pub.
> 
> ...


do you work there or stand to get any money from promoting it?  or is just about hatred of ed? 
weird!


----------



## T & P (Aug 2, 2015)

ddraig said:


> do you work there or stand to get any money from promoting it?  or is just about hatred of ed?
> weird!


Neither. Why do you insist on trying to spin it that way?

Are you trying to suggest £4.50 is an unreasonable price for a pint? Unless there's any suggestion that that beer is not regularly available and just a con trick, it is wrong and inaccurate to describe Pop Brixton as a whole as a rip-off. Never mind that Pop is composed of many independent traders, some of which likely to be rather unhappy to see the entire site they trade in described as too expensive, in particular if they rthenselves have set up their prices to be reasonable.

I have certainly no beef against Editor and no interest invested in Pop. As a matter of fact I didn't like it much when I visited it last week. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with or ignore generalisations that are in my view unfair and inaccurate.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 2, 2015)

not trying to spin it just weird the lengths some including you are going to to defend the place and its prices


----------



## discobastard (Aug 2, 2015)

ddraig said:


> do you work there or stand to get any money from promoting it?  or is just about hatred of ed?
> weird!


Wow.  Rarely have I seen a post taken so spectacularly out of context and had it's own paranoid reality constructed round it.

It corrects some misinformation.  In no way does it infer T & P works there or gets a financial kickback (that would be a *really* weird business model don't you think?)

And the word 'hatred' is just hyperbolic rubbish, clearly way off the mark, that only serves to cause more anger and disruption on an already emotionally charged thread.  

Step away from the keyboard, calm down and take a reality check dude.  For your own good.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 2, 2015)

perfectly calm here ta
my observation, suck it up


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Are we seriously comparing the cost of two bottled beers at Pop (slightly over a pint) with the price of a pint at some other U75 approved  venue? Cracking stuff. There are plenty of reasons to hate Pop, many of them valid, but this is truly scraping the bottom of the barrel now.
> *
> Bottled beer prices are a rip off anywhere. I have no idea who buys bottled beer or why. It's been a rip off since year dot, and will always be so*.



Bottled beers are cheap at the Portuguese cafe in Brixton Station road. Under two quid.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 2, 2015)

What beers are they?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What beers are they?



A couple of Portuguese beers. Forget the names.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 2, 2015)

Are they low abv or ml? I don't think I've ever had a bottled beer for that price in a cafe/bar!


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 2, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Are they low abv or ml? I don't think I've ever had a bottled beer for that price in a cafe/bar!



The make is called Sagres. Its also on tap. 

Its standard alcohol level from what I remember from drinking it.


----------



## Fingers (Aug 2, 2015)

I notice there is one springing up next to East Croydon train station.  Box Park. 

http://www.boxpark.co.uk/


----------



## editor (Aug 2, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The make is called Sagres. Its also on tap.
> 
> Its standard alcohol level from what I remember from drinking it.


That's generally seen as a premium beer - every bit as premium at the £3.75 half pint bottles flogged off in Pop.


----------



## AnotherAmbition (Aug 2, 2015)

editor said:


> Bloody hell - I can't keep up with your ever shifting goalposts here!
> 
> But FYI, my drinks were around £3.80 and under last night. I wasn't drinking Fosters. What do you think about Pop's Red Stripe Stubbies going for £7.50 a pint. Sound reasonable to you?



Stop talking bullshit, red stripe is £4.50 a pint, you cant equate the price of buying two bottles to the price of a pint


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 2, 2015)

In the bar part of the Cantinho they sell bottles of Sagres - lager and a dark version of it too - and Super Bok. We don't go in there since it changed hands about a year ago so I don't know how much a bottle is now but it was very cheap. An espresso was 70p the last time I had one there.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 2, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The make is called Sagres. Its also on tap.
> 
> Its standard alcohol level from what I remember from drinking it.


Also Super Bock. The coffee there is also the cheapest in Brixton at £1 for a takeaway latte.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 2, 2015)

editor said:


> That's generally seen as a premium beer - every bit as premium at the £3.75 half pint bottles flogged off in Pop.


Really? It's just ordinary lager but Portuguese. What you drink on holiday, basically.


----------



## AnotherAmbition (Aug 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm sure your post is well-observed, but could you please quantify the following issues I have with it?
> 
> 1) What do you mean by "most"?
> 2) Have you actually tested your claim re: Pop prices, or are you presenting what you've personally observed as being somehow acceptable as core data rather than as simple anecdote?
> ...



1) had a Brixton beer from the nz wine shop, an asahi from koi ramen and a Vietnamese beer I have never seen in london so presumably import from the Viet place all for the previously mentioned price
 2) yes
3) this a a question for editor
4) yes
5) no


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2015)

AnotherAmbition said:


> 1) had a Brixton beer from the nz wine shop, an asahi from koi ramen and a Vietnamese beer I have never seen in london so presumably import from the Viet place all for the previously mentioned price
> 2) yes



"Yes" isn't an answer to Q2, it's a swerve.



> 3) this a a question for editor



As you're the poster that mentioned "complete misinformation designed to discredit", I'd have thought it good manners that you said *why* you believe that, rather than avoiding the question or avoiding owning your own language.


> 4) yes



Then please do so.



> 5) no



Thanks for not answering the questions


----------



## teuchter (Aug 3, 2015)

Nit-picking is _destroying _this forum.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2015)

I thought it was snide pissants without the courage to state their antagonisms openly, that are destroying this forum. Ho-hum.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 3, 2015)

What are the antagonisms that are not being stated openly, and by whom?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> What are the antagonisms that are not being stated openly, and by whom?



You mean that you somehow haven't noticed that you, T & P, deadringer,  Mr Retro and a large handful of others attack editor, but never have the guts to do so openly - along the lines of "I think you're a cunt, and that everything you stand for is shit" - but instead pick pick pick at side-issues like the snide pissants you are?

editor : I'm willing to take a warning or a ban, but I feel this needs to be stated and re-stated.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2015)

Ms T said:


> Really? It's just ordinary lager but Portuguese. What you drink on holiday, basically.


But that's when you're on _holiday_, not here. It's a same for a lot of foreign beers - cheap as chips in their home country but priced more expensively elsewhere.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> What are the antagonisms that are not being stated openly, and by whom?


I think we all know what's going on - you especially - and if it continues, then warnings and bans will follow.  

I do believe I have already made this all very clear indeed.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean that you somehow haven't noticed that you, T & P, deadringer,  Mr Retro and a large handful of others attack editor, but never have the guts to do so openly - along the lines of "*I think you're a cunt, and that everything you stand for is shit*" - but instead pick pick pick at side-issues like the snide pissants you are?



That is very definitely not my position and I have explicitly stated as much, many times. I'm pretty sure the others you mention can confirm the same is true of them. Unless you can back up your claims with some actual evidence, then stop trying to smear and misrepresent people with this kind of rubbish, please.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> That is very definitely not my position and I have explicitly stated as much, many times. I'm pretty sure the others you mention can confirm the same is true of them. Unless you can back up your claims with some actual evidence, then stop trying to smear and misrepresent people with this kind of rubbish, please.


No. Not having this discussion here. Stop it. And that applies to all 'interested parties'.


----------



## T & P (Aug 3, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean that you somehow haven't noticed that you, T & P, deadringer,  Mr Retro and a large handful of others attack editor, but never have the guts to do so openly - along the lines of "I think you're a cunt, and that everything you stand for is shit" - but instead pick pick pick at side-issues like the snide pissants you are?
> 
> editor : I'm willing to take a warning or a ban, but I feel this needs to be stated and re-stated.


You can fuck right off with your assumptions and your completely wrong allegations. I am debating on an internet forum and sometimes challenging some views- by Editor and other people. Perhaps you should take a break from your self-appointed role of Editor's knight in shiny armour, specially when in the overwhelming majority of occasions no heroic defence/ backing up was required in the first place.

If you would like this place to be an echo chamber where no contrary views to the party line are uttered, perhaps you should come clear and admit it outright, since you are so keen for others to come clear about perceived agendas which, in my case, is a load of cunting bullshit.


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2015)

T & P said:


> You can fuck right off with your assumptions and your completely wrong allegations. I am debating on an internet forum and sometimes challenging some views- by Editor and other people. Perhaps you should take a break from your self-appointed role of Editor's knight in shiny armour, specially when in the overwhelming majority of occasions no heroic defence/ backing up was required in the first place.
> 
> If you would like this place to be an echo chamber where no contrary views to the party line are uttered, perhaps you should come clear and admit it outright, since you are so keen for others to come clear about perceived agendas which, in my case, is a load of cunting bullshit.


Perhaps you didn't see my post above. No more please.


----------



## deadringer (Aug 3, 2015)

editor said:


> If you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd learn we were talking about the £5 pint of standard ale, served in a crappy plastic glass. That is more than any pub in Brixton.
> 
> And what do do you think of £7.50 for a pint of bottled Red Stripe. Pay that often in pubs, do you? Think that's an appropriate price for a "pioneering new space created with the local community in mind"?
> 
> And as for this "U75 approved venue" bollocks. Grow up, FFS.



If you'd bothered to read my post properly you'd have seen that I clearly state that all bottled beer is a rip off.


----------



## deadringer (Aug 3, 2015)

That 


Gramsci said:


> Bottled beers are cheap at the Portuguese cafe in Brixton Station road. Under two quid.



That is indeed great value.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 3, 2015)

Sagres and Bock are often just a couple of quid in Portuguese places...


----------



## deadringer (Aug 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean that you somehow haven't noticed that you, T & P, deadringer,  Mr Retro and a large handful of others attack editor, but never have the guts to do so openly - along the lines of "I think you're a cunt, and that everything you stand for is shit" - but instead pick pick pick at side-issues like the snide pissants you are?
> 
> editor : I'm willing to take a warning or a ban, but I feel this needs to be stated and re-stated.



What the hell? I'm challenging posts that I disagree with. I'm never personal, and to the best part of my knowledge never swear. You need to apologise for this disgusting, revolting personal slur please


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 4, 2015)

deadringer said:


> What the hell? I'm challenging posts that I disagree with. I'm never personal, and to the best part of my knowledge never swear. You need to apologise for this disgusting, revolting personal slur please


I echo this and I've only seen the above because I have VP on ignore. Editor and I have some vigorous discussions and I don't believe either of us think the other is out order. I've never been personal , never swore at somebody and never had a warning.

I'm not interested in getting into a "prove where I've said this" type argument with somebody I've had the good judgement to put on ignore though. So like editor has requested I'm not going to say any more on the subject .


----------



## editor (Aug 4, 2015)

deadringer said:


> What the hell? I'm challenging posts that I disagree with. I'm never personal, and to the best part of my knowledge never swear. You need to apologise for this disgusting, revolting personal slur please


Read post #3114. This is not the forum for this debate and I'm getting fed up stating this fact,


Mr Retro said:


> I'm not interested in getting into a "prove where I've said this" type argument with somebody I've had the good judgement to put on ignore though.


Then don't.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 4, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Jacko on the jobs fair.



For some reason after reading this on weekend I could not get it out of my head today. Its like one of those irritating earworms.

Looking at it today its all the New Labour speak:



> _giving them the leg up they need to get the competitive edge in the global talent race. _





> ambitious and entrepreneurial





> win the talent contest for jobs



What with the gross Adidas appendage and advertising tacked onto to the container park this is fast becoming a New Labour dystopia for the future under Labour.



See Groce gets a good mention from Jacko. Groces Green Man outfit are doing well with Jacko as Cabinet member for jobs and growth.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 5, 2015)

Pop is looking for a Social Media Intern - and yep, it's a paid position.

"We want to see your personality, copy writing skills as well as your grasp of what Pop's about."

I still have absolutely no idea what Pop is about


----------



## Winot (Aug 5, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Pop is looking for a Social Media Intern - and yep, it's a paid position.
> 
> "We want to see your personality, copy writing skills as well as your grasp of what Pop's about."
> 
> I still have absolutely no idea what Pop is about



You've not got much chance of getting the job then


----------



## ddraig (Aug 5, 2015)

maybe one of you massive fans of all they do could get it and gush somewhere else


----------



## Maharani (Aug 5, 2015)

I think ed should go for it...


----------



## 299 old timer (Aug 5, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> I still have absolutely no idea what Pop is about



Many many years ago I was called in for a bollocking by the then senior partner:

"Old timer, do you know why we are here"?

"Er, to give our clients excellent service and uphold the law?"

"No old timer, we are here to make money".

After that a lot of things made sense.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2015)

Great news! Now zero-hours contracting corporate JD Sports is teaming up with Adidas to create a football event on the 10th of August
at Pop up Brixton in London. It’s a VIP event too!

And just look at these terms!


> The winners and their Team Mates must wear the Kit as the outermost layer of clothing and must not wear any items of clothing or accessories which clearly display a competitor logo at all times whilst participating in all Tournament matches. All personal items brought to the Tournament by the winners and/or their Team Mates will be left at their own risk and the Promoter accepts no responsibility or liability for any loss or damage to any items or belongings.
> By entering the Competition, you agree to grant an irrevocable and royalty free licence to the Promoter to use your name, photograph, video, voice recording and general location for publicity, news and promotional purposes in any and all media during this and any future promotions or advertising.
> By taking part in the Tournament, you acknowledge that any intellectual property rights (including, without limitation copyright in text, film and sound recording) which arise in relation to your involvement with the Tournament shall vest absolutely with the Promoter and you hereby assign to the Promoter any such rights which become vested in you.



http://www.jdsports.co.uk/page/adidas-base-brixton/


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Great news! Now zero-hours contracting corporate JD Sports is teaming up with Adidas to create a football event on the 10th of August
> at Pop up Brixton in London. It’s a VIP event too!
> 
> And just look at these terms!
> ...


exactly, free for kids, ie to model and promote freely, ie as unpaid models, and kids, providing they are 16-18 and have an adult with them so someone can afford to buy the clobber. Getting the hang of this POP lingo now, might apply for that internship after all. wankers.

p.s. i do hope im not misrepresenting them or failing to answer a question. free footy for kids my arse SpamMisery


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 5, 2015)

What I find somewhat disturbing is how this Adidas pr job is extending into schools.



> Engagaing with Local Schools
> 
> The long term plan is to bulid relationships with schools encouraging kids to get-up-and-go through sport. Adidas will be donating brand spanking sports equipment to local schools when they return from their summer break.



Given the conditions that Adidas want for the Brixton Base competition I assume Adidias want to similar conditions with schools.

I think schools should be free from brands. ie neutral spaces for kids. This extension of Adidas advertising campaign ( that is what it is) into schools should have been rejected by the Council.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 5, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> free footy for kids my arse SpamMisery



Why are you tagging me? It's still a footy thing, it's still free, it's still for kids, and I still don't give a monkeys uncle about the T&Cs


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Great news! Now zero-hours contracting corporate JD Sports is teaming up with Adidas to create a football event on the 10th of August
> at Pop up Brixton in London. It’s a VIP event too!
> 
> And just look at these terms!
> ...


They've got some nerve with those ip conditions.  And SpamMisery it's not a footy thing really as it's about getting parents to part with their money. It's a shameless sales and marketing event.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 5, 2015)

equationgirl,  FOD asked 'what is Base Brixton?'

I said 'its a free footy thing for kids'

Lucyfur took exception to my description, had a pop at the time, and has brought it up again a week or so later. If I'd responded with 'its a shameless sales and marketing event', FOD would have been none the wiser.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2015)

Edgy stuff from the German multinational corporation!


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 5, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Why are you tagging me? It's still a footy thing, it's still free, it's still for kids, and I still don't give a monkeys uncle about the T&Cs


SpamMisery, shes (FOD) none the wiser for your desciption of the event, but you dont give a monkeys uncle for the evidence that shows this. and i bowed out of this conversation for the duration of the beer price thing, as i thought neither side was covering themselves in glory there. i do think however, that the football thing, masquerading as some kind of community thing is pretty cynical on pops part,  and does not bode well for the future.

e2a it was 4 days ago, not a week or so ago, are you ever straight forward?


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 5, 2015)

Ok you win.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> equationgirl,  FOD asked 'what is Base Brixton?'
> 
> I said 'its a free footy thing for kids'
> 
> Lucyfur took exception to my description, had a pop at the time, and has brought it up again a week or so later. If I'd responded with 'its a shameless sales and marketing event', FOD would have been none the wiser.


I responded with 'it's a shameless marketing and sales event' in light of the terms and conditions posted, especially the IP conditions. 

The very fact that they have gone to the trouble of stating these proves beyond doubt their intentions. If it were solely or even primarily a kids football school,  for example, they would not be considering who owns the copyright in any photo or video, because they would be focusing on getting as many kids involved as possible, having mini tournaments or guest coaches from big clubs. They would be all about the football.

IP is largely a commercial asset. Once you're talking about ensuring you own various ip rights,  that's pretty much full blown commercial territory.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 5, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> They've got some nerve with those ip conditions.  And SpamMisery it's not a footy thing really as it's about getting parents to part with their money. It's a shameless sales and marketing event.


It's *definitely* a footy thing.  I'm fairly sure of that.  And it's what Adidas (and loads of other corporates) feel is a probably a 'fair exchange of value'.  And it falls under the Corporate Responsibility banner.  Pretty much every corporate does it, and it isn't the fault of anybody here.

What that means is that they put on a big event and some young people and adults get a chance that they wouldn't otherwise have to be part of something big, play in public, wear a nice kit (which it sounds like it might be provided for free, though it isn't clear), and loads of people get to watch their friends and others play a football tournament.  People get excited etc and possibly some people get interested in sport.

In exchange for spending money on this (likely tens, possibly hundreds of thousands), Adidas and JD Sports get some PR, probably sell a bit more kit and I suspect enjoy themselves too.

Yes, the conditions are extremely tedious, but if they didn't insist on people wearing the kit and the free use of the publicity surrounding it they wouldn't do it, and the players and spectators (who all engage of their own free will) wouldn't get that experience.

It's also worth noting that (in my experience at least) the people that run these campaigns for corporates can be quite passionate about the difference they can make (whether it be running free sports events or for example Barclays running that Digital Eagles education programme).  But of course the legal dept will be all over the T&Cs and the finance dept will want proof that the investment provides a return).  That's never going to go away.  Everybody wants a return on their investment (though for some, but by no means all) it will be more financial than feelgood.

Gramsci's right that extending PR too far into schools is something that one should keep a watching brief on, and you have to question whether the possible (as yet intangible) downside or harm that can be caused outweighs the benefits such as _"The long term plan is to build relationships with schools encouraging kids to get-up-and-go through sport. Adidas will be donating brand spanking sports equipment to local schools when they return from their summer break."  _

I don't know the answer to that.

Some schools may well accept it because it means they have access to resources/services that they can't otherwise afford and the young people don't give a toss as long as they get to play football/have vending machines.  Some may not.

It's staggeringly naive to call it out as simply a way of getting people to part with their money.  It's far more nuanced and insidious than that.  But it's also something that a lot of young people (and by extension parents) *may* well get a real benefit from.

Now, you're welcome to pick this post to pieces, but it's important to have some balance, don't you think?

For the record, I'm not pro-Adidas or pro-Pop.  Nor do I work for either of these organisations.  And yes, it is disappointing that Pop has not quite turned out the way that the original brief was interpreted to be.  I went once, doubt I'll go back.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2015)

In the context of a complete demolition of school and publicly-funded sport facilities, it's great, basically. This is all you can hope for.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2015)

A poster on Facebook comments;


> I'm frankly horrified that Pop & JD Sports are seeking to lure & mislead children (aged under 18) into legally unenforceable contracts in this way. Yes, they say they have to tick a box to indicate parental consent, but that's not enough in legal terms (although the kids probably won't realise that). This is exploitative and the whole campaign needs to be withdrawn asap.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Edgy stuff from the German multinational corporation!




"Imagine a green oasis..."


----------



## discobastard (Aug 5, 2015)

editor said:


> A poster on Facebook comments;



It would be good to have a bit more detail behind that post because it isn't actually clear what they are objecting to, specifically.

That's not to say I don't agree with them - I don't know because I'm not sure what issue they are raising.  

It may be enough that they have parental 'consent' and the fact that:

Any winner aged between 16-18 years of age must participate in the Tournament with a Team Mate aged 18 or over and the winner’s parent or guardian must consent to the winner being accompanied to the Tournament by the Team Mate.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2015)

discobastard said:


> It would be good to have a bit more detail behind that post because it isn't actually clear what they are objecting to, specifically.
> 
> That's not to say I don't agree with them - I don't know because I'm not sure what issue they are raising.
> 
> ...


At best, their claim on all IP rights is morally dubious.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 5, 2015)

discobastard said:


> It's *definitely* a footy thing.  I'm fairly sure of that.  And it's what Adidas (and loads of other corporates) feel is a probably a 'fair exchange of value'.  And it falls under the Corporate Responsibility banner.  Pretty much every corporate does it, and it isn't the fault of anybody here.
> 
> What that means is that they put on a big event and some young people and adults get a chance that they wouldn't otherwise have to be part of something big, play in public, wear a nice kit (which it sounds like it might be provided for free, though it isn't clear), and loads of people get to watch their friends and others play a football tournament.  People get excited etc and possibly some people get interested in sport.
> 
> ...



Thats a good description of what its about. But still does not convince me that its something that’s does not merit criticism.

This Adidas campaign shows how much influence large multinationals can have. The blurring of the private and public spheres.Which I do not think is good for society. This is extension of consumerism into sport for kids. 

(btw what happened to the Olympic legacy we were promised?)

Adidas have a choice. They could have just donated an amount of money to further sport without all this. They did not have to turn it into a campaign like this.

I agree that its more nuanced and insidious.

I see creatives at work and they are clever people. They devise campaigns like this drawing on popular culture and working out how to make it palatable to people.

This campaign is particularly insidious as its about starting to develop a relationship with a brand early on. As Jesuits knew get at them when they are young.

Your post seems to be saying that this is just how things are. That its not anyone fault. Well if thats how things have to work its pretty shit imo.

I know one local group who will not be having anything to do with it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2015)

Anyone under 16 is not going to be allowed into this, if that wasn't clear, btw.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 5, 2015)

editor said:


> At best, their claim on all IP rights is morally dubious.



And the implications of the IP rights being that they can use the images of the players in any way they want to promote their wares.  Yes, it's quite cynical but I'm sure there are plenty young people who would love to play and have their talents splashed about the place.

I don't particularly like this bit:

The winners and their Team Mates take part in the Tournament at their own risk. To the maximum extent permitted by law, the Promoter will not be liable for any claims or actions of any kind whatsoever for damages or losses to persons and property which may be sustained in connection with entry into the Competition, participation in the Tournament and/or use of the Prize.
But I suspect it's pretty standard for this kind of thing.  If somebody sustained a life changing injury while playing then Adidas could step away, though I doubt they would entirely because of the reputational impact.  It's probably just in there to limit liability.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2015)

discobastard said:


> And the implications of the IP rights being that they can use the images of the players in any way they want to promote their wares.  Yes, it's quite cynical but I'm sure there are plenty young people who would love to play and have their talents splashed about the place.


It would be one thing if this was being hosted in a shopping mall or on private property.

But it's coming under the banner of what was supposed to "a verdant community growing space and vibrant cultural and educational hub."


----------



## discobastard (Aug 5, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thats a good description of what its about. But still does not convince me that its something that’s does not merit criticism.
> 
> This Adidas campaign shows how much influence large multinationals can have. The blurring of the private and public spheres.
> 
> ...



I agree, and I wasn't trying to convince anybody that it isn't worthy of criticism (and I hope you realise I wasn't suggesting that).

I just don't think that blanket callouts that 'it's just evil corporations being evil' does it justice, and it most certainly doesn't encourage intelligent debate.  As you seem to be suggesting, a debate worthy of everybody on here as to whether the benefits can sometimes be welcome (or not) certainly beats interpersonal sniping and seemingly unending logical fallacies and misrepresentation.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 5, 2015)

editor said:


> It would be one thing if this was being hosted in a shopping mall or on private property.
> 
> But it's coming under the banner of what was supposed to "a verdant community growing space and vibrant cultural and educational hub."


It's certainly a broader argument of what it should and shouldn't be used for.  And I suspect (though I don't know) that they are being paid handsomely for the use of the space (even if not, it will attract people to it, which is more or less the same thing).  Maybe (just maybe) that if it is generating revenue it will help to fund some more palatable activities.  You never know.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 5, 2015)

oh the generous multinational spending tens of thousands of pounds, look at them use their resources and spread their love 
it's corporate whitewash, as is the barclays bollocks
a drop in the ocean for them and get some nice things to put in the annual report or special 'charity/community' microsite


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2015)

discobastard said:


> It's certainly a broader argument of what it should and shouldn't be used for.  And I suspect they are being paid handsomely for the use of the space.  Maybe (just maybe) that will help to fund some more palatable activities.  You never know.


Well maybe. Or maybe not. But given how the 'co-op' council has completely mis-sold the entire project, I doubt if we'll be any the wiser.  It's not like any consultation took place about whether we wanted this or not.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Well maybe. Or maybe not. But given how the 'co-op' council has completely mis-sold the entire project, I doubt if we'll be any the wiser.  It's not like any consultation took place about whether we wanted this or not.


That's a very fair point.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 5, 2015)

ddraig said:


> oh the generous multinational spending tens of thousands of pounds, look at them use their resources and spread their love
> it's corporate whitewash, as is the barclays bollocks
> a drop in the ocean for them and get some nice things to put in the annual report or special 'charity/community' microsite


Wondered how long it would take!
Be well, ddraig.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 5, 2015)

discobastard said:


> And the implications of the IP rights being that they can use the images of the players in any way they want to promote their wares.  Yes, it's quite cynical but I'm sure there are plenty young people who would love to play and have their talents splashed about the place.
> .



But we are all adults with more experience of life. ( In theory anyway). If its cynical then a younger person might not realise that this is what it is and be able to make a choice to accept it or not. 

As for evil corporations. This is a capitalist society and big business are there to make a profit. Adidas are not there to provide a social service or be nice to people. The bottom line is keeping the market share and pounds rolling in.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Wondered how long it would take!
> Be well, ddraig.



ddraig is right.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Wondered how long it would take!
> Be well, ddraig.


didn't quote you or have a go at anyone, it is just an opinion
opposite to yours of course


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> But we are all adults with more experience of life. ( In theory anyway). If its cynical then a younger person might not realise that this is what it is and be able to make a choice to accept it or not.
> 
> As for evil corporations. This is a capitalist society and big business are there to make a profit. Adidas are not there to provide a social service or be nice to people. The bottom line is keeping the market share and pounds rolling in.


True.  And many of us sign away our privacy rights to far worse potential harm to Apple, Google and others every day.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

ddraig said:


> didn't quote you or have a go at anyone, it is just an opinion
> opposite to yours of course


Fair dos.  Retracted.

eta: it's not quite opposite to mine, as I tried to get across in my previous post.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> True.  And many of us sign away our privacy rights to far worse potential harm to Apple, Google and others every day.



What I meant was that I do not think Multinational corporations should have access to use young people in this way. There is an issue of what is real consent here. Especially as they will be using images of these young people in adverts.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What I meant was that I do not think Multinational corporations should have access to use young people in this way. There is an issue of what is real consent here. Especially as they will be using images of these young people in adverts.


I do still think there are far worse things that we all (including young people) consent to every day.  So I agree there are wider issues of consent more generally.  And imo some are bigger issues than having your image used in ads, but I would agree that any consent should probably be more than ticking a box.  And I would hope that they have a second, and more informed level of consent (briefing, opportunity to retract).  But that's detail I know nothing about.


----------



## Winot (Aug 6, 2015)

A quick note about the IP rights issue, as it's something I know a bit about.

First, as equation girl says, IP rights are all about the money.  Money and marketing.  They're about protecting use/exploitation of an asset or perceived asset.  I can completely understand (and have a lot of sympathy with) a view which says that they don't want money/marketing to impinge onto the world of sport - particularly kids sport - but once you've made that pact with the devil then this kind of thing follows.

From a very quick look, it seems that there are broadly two types of condition imposed on this event.  The first is "don't wear other company's logos".  The background to this is something called ambush marketing that IP lawyers got very exercised about a few years back when one big sports company paid a shedload of money to sponsor a major event and then a rival company hired a hot air balloon with their logo on and floated it behind the stadium in view of all the TV cameras .  Other ambushing was less imaginative but the result was that lawyers started to put this kind of clause into event contracts.  It's probably a boilerplate clause in the Adidas contract and no one's given any thought to whether it's appropriate to whether it's appropriate to this event.  However, given that Adidas will probably want to use photos of the event in their marketing, do they want participants in those photos wearing Nike sweatshirts? No of course they don't.

The second condition is to sign away any IP rights which arise as a result of the event.  Bit of a catch-all this one, and legally a bit dubious.  But probably not as evil as it appears.  What in practice are the IP rights which might arise that Adidas will actually care about? Primarily they are going to be official photos.  And the copyright in those is going to be owned by the photographer -> Adidas anyway.  The people in the photo won't own any IP rights in it.  What about if the participants take their own photo?  Does the clause mean that copyright in that passes to Adidas? Not sure whether that would be enforceable - it might be - but in practice Adidas are only going to care if you want to sell that photo to a rival company or use it in some kind of rival marketing.  So yes, this condition is a bit hmmm, but in practice probably not a huge issue.

The broader question for me is do I want an event in Brixton which relies on corporate marketing to get young people playing sport? Not really, it's all a bit grubby isn't it?  I'd far rather that the council put its energies into supporting the kind of low key stuff that's been talked about in the Rec etc.  But that kind of thing doesn't get New Labour pulses racing, does it?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 6, 2015)

All sounds fairly harmless and one-off

No one is forced to get involved. 

What really matters is redirecting the central government's hundreds of millions of pounds from elite sport into participative sport (the low-key stuff of which Winot speaks)


----------



## Crispy (Aug 6, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> pops part


Anyone else read Pop Tart?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 6, 2015)

It would be interesting to know how much money Lambeth could have made had they made the same site available, for the same period of time, with the same permissions etc, and simply offered it to the highest bidder to use as they liked rather than doing something like this where it is sold as something of community benefit.

If they'd done that, and spent the money on existing sports schemes, schools etc would they have exploited the value of the site more efficiently?

(The same could be asked of the main Pop site)


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It would be interesting to know how much money Lambeth could have made had they made the same site available, for the same period of time, with the same permissions etc, and simply offered it to the highest bidder to use as they liked rather than doing something like this where it is sold as something of community benefit.


Is it actively being sold (communicated by Pop/Adidas) directly as of community benefit?  I didn't see that anywhere.  Unless you mean simply by association of being placed next to Pop.


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Is it actively being sold (communicated by Pop/Adidas) directly as of community benefit?


Yes it is. Cllr Jack Hopkins was keen to tell the community just how beneficial it all was:


> Next week, a temporary unit will be constructed in the Pop Brixton car park space to house footballing facilities for local people. There’ll be free training sessions and the chance for clubs and schools to get new kit thanks to a sponsorship deal between Pop Brixton and adidas.





> Cllr Jack Hopkins, Cabinet member for Jobs and Growth said; “This latest initiative will provide sports and a new radio station, offering opportunities for training and fun for local young people. Lambeth Council is committed to helping people lead healthy lifestyles, with access to sport and after the great performance by England’s Women footballers in the World Cup, I suspect there’ll be many girls wanting to take advantage of these training sessions. Pop Brixton’s heart is in the Brixton community and we’ve already seen the energy and creativity it’s bringing.”


https://lambethnews.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/pop-brixton-adidas-and-reprezent-radio/

As far as I can see, the football stage is only here for a couple of days, but of course the massive billboard advert has already been up for ages.


----------



## Pop Tart (Aug 6, 2015)

Crispy said:


> Anyone else read Pop Tart?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> It would be good to have a bit more detail behind that post because it isn't actually clear what they are objecting to, specifically.
> 
> That's not to say I don't agree with them - I don't know because I'm not sure what issue they are raising.
> 
> ...


I think you have to be at least 18 to assign ip rights. Parental consent isn't assignment.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes it is. Cllr Jack Hopkins was keen to tell the community just how beneficial it all was:
> 
> 
> https://lambethnews.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/pop-brixton-adidas-and-reprezent-radio/
> ...



For some wider context and balance (and debate):

Football stage - for a couple of days
Billboard - for ages already
The radio station, already established as a voice for young people in London will offer over 400 training opportunities at its new Brixton home.
In addition to the direct funding adidas is working with Pop Brixton and Young Lambeth Co-op to;
• Encourage participation in sport by inviting schools, sports clubs and local youth organisations to be involved in the free football activities.
• Provide multi-sporting equipment to local schools to facilitate future participation in sport.
• Provide employment opportunities to local residents at forthcoming events
• Launch a training and development programme that rewards the hardworking volunteers of the grass roots footballing community.
• Provide a platform for local artists to showcase their work through the installation of a mural framework on the exterior façade of Pop Brixton.
...apparently for some time to come after that, and likely well beyond the existence of the billboard and the football stage
So a point for debate is whether any of this activity might benefit the community in any way vs what the potential harm or downside could be.

We could quite easily cloud that debate about whether it will _actually_ be delivered, but on the face of it, as a programme of activity, what do people think?


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I think you have to be at least 18 to assign ip rights. Parental consent isn't assignment.


Well, we should check on that then before we make any more judgments.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

How many of those training opportunities will be paid? What are they, work experience days, apprenticeships,  internships?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> We could quite easily cloud that debate about whether it will _actually_ be delivered, but on the face of it, as a programme of activity, what do people think?



Grow / Pop hasn't got a great record on delivering what was promised by Jacko and his pals.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Well, we should check on that then before we make any more judgments.


An assignment statement is normally explicit and legally binding, and it's change in ownership of property. You have to be 18 to enter into a contract of any type iirc. Winot have I remembered correctly?


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Grow / Pop hasn't got a great record on delivering what was promised by Jacko and his pals.


Yes I've become aware of that. And they should be held accountable.  Even more so now that they are promising this as an outcome of heavily branded corporate sponsorship, as it ups the stakes imo. 

But if they did deliver on what they are promising here, does any of it sound like it might benefit the community in any way?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Yes I've become aware of that. And they should be held accountable.  Even more so now that they are promising this as an outcome of heavily branded corporate sponsorship, as it ups the stakes imo.
> 
> But if they did deliver on what they are promising here, does any of it sound like it might benefit the community in any way?



Looking at that list:

Football stage - for a couple of days
Billboard - for ages already
The radio station, already established as a voice for young people in London will offer over 400 training opportunities at its new Brixton home.
In addition to the direct funding adidas is working with Pop Brixton and Young Lambeth Co-op to;
 Encourage participation in sport by inviting schools, sports clubs and local youth organisations to be involved in the free football activities.
 Provide multi-sporting equipment to local schools to facilitate future participation in sport.
Provide employment opportunities to local residents at forthcoming event
 Launch a training and development programme that rewards the hardworking volunteers of the grass roots footballing community.
Provide a platform for local artists to showcase their work through the installation of a mural framework on the exterior façade of Pop Brixton.
...apparently for some time to come after that, and likely well beyond the existence of the billboard and the football stage
All of these could have been delivered away from Pop, across the road at Brixton Rec.

Apart from the camera friendly football stage and the branding.


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

I've added a piece on Buzz to stir things up a bit and hopefully get people talking about what's happening here:

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/08/...ameless-sales-and-marketing-event-for-adidas/

The complete lack of consultation and accountability by Lambeth about what's going on at Pop really freaking annoys me, and I feel embarrassed to have so enthusiastically endorsed the original proposals.


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Looking at that list:
> 
> Encourage participation in sport by inviting schools, sports clubs and local youth organisations to be involved in the free football activities..


Is that just for the handful of days that the stage is here?


----------



## Winot (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> An assignment statement is normally explicit and legally binding, and it's change in ownership of property. You have to be 18 to enter into a contract of any type iirc. Winot have I remembered correctly?



Can't remember about the age point (travelling so can't check) but everything else correct, yes.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Just wanted to point out that this thread is up front in the record response stakes.
Say hello to Brixton Square had 2671 replies
Angel pub to be Brickbox arts space 1830.


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

Winot said:


> Can't remember about the age point (travelling so can't check) but everything else correct, yes.


Thanks


----------



## leanderman (Aug 6, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Grow / Pop hasn't got a great record on delivering what was promised by Jacko and his pals.



I'd say Pop has delivered pretty much what was promised - if not what some claim  had been promised. 

Even the green stuff.

I am surprised at its success, so far. 

Still, it's not really my thing. Probably too old.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I'd say Pop has delivered pretty much what was promised - if not what some claim  had been promised.
> 
> Even the green stuff.
> 
> ...



You could argue that it has delivered more than was promised. An awful lot more.


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I'd say Pop has delivered pretty much what was promised - if not what some claim  had been promised.
> 
> Even the green stuff.


What? You think it's a verdant community growing space and vibrant cultural and educational hub and a green oasis? Really?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

editor said:


> I've added a piece on Buzz to stir things up a bit and hopefully get people talking about what's happening here:
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/08/...ameless-sales-and-marketing-event-for-adidas/
> 
> The complete lack of consultation and accountability by Lambeth about what's going on at Pop really freaking annoys me, and I feel embarrassed to have so enthusiastically endorsed the original proposals.


Another great article on Brixton buzz about Pop


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 6, 2015)

Encourage participation in sport by inviting schools, sports clubs and local youth organisations to be involved in the free football activities.



editor said:


> Is that just for the handful of days that the stage is here?



This is the bit I dont quite get, the stage as I understand from their website is all about the 2v2 competition, the "Challenge" is simply which pair of their boots you will wear (!) has there been any definate indication of the nature and when these additional free football activities are going to occur, or is this just a hollow promise?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 6, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> You could argue that it has delivered more than was promised. An awful lot more.



I was about to do just that!


----------



## leanderman (Aug 6, 2015)

editor said:


> What? You think it's a verdant community growing space and vibrant cultural and educational hub and a green oasis? Really?



Selective quotation, as usual. (Ignoring the business and retail elements of the proposal).


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 6, 2015)

The free two day jobs fair thing they ran is educational (not sure what qualifies as a 'hub')


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The free two day jobs fair thing they ran is educational (not sure what qualifies as a 'hub')


I think it's a bit of a stretch to describe a jobs fair as educational, unless there were tutorials or classes available on say, writing a cv.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I think it's a bit of a stretch to describe a jobs fair as educational, unless there were tutorials or classes available on say, writing a cv.



I think there was a CV session.



> The event is structured around current local vacancies as well as opportunities to speak directly to employers and will give everyone who attends the chance to find out about exciting job opportunities, available apprenticeships, key job search tips, CV help and business advice from successful entrepreneurs.


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Selective quotation, as usual. (Ignoring the business and retail elements of the proposal).


Where has the 'green stuff' been delivered. Does this look like a 'verdant community growing space' and a 'green oasis to you?






In the evening it's nothing more than a giant pub. Take away the booze and the place would be deserted.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I think there was a CV session.


In which case, I have no issue with it being described as such.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Where has the 'green stuff' been delivered. Does this look like a 'verdant community growing space' and a 'green oasis to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are there not still plans to develop this element further or am I misremembering what I read on the website?


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Are there not still plans to develop this element further or am I misremembering what I read on the website?


Who knows? The looming Adidas Tower Of Corporate Sponsorship wasn't on any plans either and what we've got bears scant resemblance to the original, smaller, greener illustrations.


----------



## steeeve (Aug 6, 2015)

editor said:


> Where has the 'green stuff' been delivered. Does this look like a 'verdant community growing space' and a 'green oasis to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's loads of green stuff now in planters it's just not in that shot

ETA I'm not a big fan either it's just a fact


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

steeeve said:


> There's loads of green stuff now in planters it's just not in that shot
> 
> ETA I'm not a big fan either it's just a fact


Yes, they've wheeled in some planters and put them around the place - in much the fashion you might stick some plants in an office. It all feels very much as an afterthought and they seem to serve primarily as a backdrop for the drinking (the upstairs covered drinking area acts more like a pub lounge/dining room than a horticultural-themed education area).


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 6, 2015)




----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


>


What is that?


----------



## editor (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> What is that?


I'm not sure but stick a sparkler in it and I'm sure you'll be able to pick one up from the Shrub & Shutter for £10.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm not sure but stick a sparkler in it and I'm sure you'll be able to pick one up from the Shrub & Shutter for £10.


----------



## newbie (Aug 6, 2015)

Wow. Reprezent is coming to town.  

I hope they bring their transmitter with them, the last few months it's been hard to get them and they used to have a really strong signal.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It would be interesting to know how much money Lambeth could have made had they made the same site available, for the same period of time, with the same permissions etc, and simply offered it to the highest bidder to use as they liked rather than doing something like this where it is sold as something of community benefit.
> 
> If they'd done that, and spent the money on existing sports schemes, schools etc would they have exploited the value of the site more efficiently?
> 
> (The same could be asked of the main Pop site)



I agree and its something I said a while back on this thread.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 6, 2015)

newbie said:


> Wow. Reprezent is coming to town.
> 
> I hope they bring their transmitter with them, the last few months it's been hard to get them and they used to have a really strong signal.



Agreed 

Largely funded by Adidas it seems

http://www.popbrixton.org/#!Adidas-X-Pop-Brixton-#keepitcommunity/ctyd/55bf44780cf267673a814b4e


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Selective quotation, as usual. (Ignoring the business and retail elements of the proposal).[/QUOTE
> [/USER] .



No its not a selective quotation from editor


Last time I debated this with you it did not seem to me that you had a firm grasp of what the original plans were.

ie you did not know what the Impact Hub was and what it had replaced in the original plans.


----------



## newbie (Aug 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Agreed
> 
> Largely funded by Adidas it seems
> 
> http://www.popbrixton.org/#!Adidas-X-Pop-Brixton-#keepitcommunity/ctyd/55bf44780cf267673a814b4e




My enthusiasm is soley based on my choice of radio in the car, though tbh it's the first thing I've felt was vaguely positive since they announced the carpark was going to be knocked down.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 6, 2015)

I have to say it doesn't seem like anyone has a very firm grasp of what the original proposals were.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 6, 2015)

discobastard said:


> For some wider context and balance (and debate):
> So a point for debate is whether any of this activity might benefit the community in any way vs what the potential harm or downside could be.
> 
> We could quite easily cloud that debate about whether it will _actually_ be delivered, but on the face of it, as a programme of activity, what do people think?



Think I have already made my position clear. I dont want it.

As Tricky Skills said volunteers have been providing these activities anyway.( In the Rec for example)

I do not want a multinational like Adidas in schools thankyou very much.

And if the Council is going to go down this route it could at least make big brands tender and compete for the privilege of access to schoolkids. Instead of just taking this on what seems to me to be trust.

Business is entitled to advertise itself on bill boards etc. ( Even then there is a limit as the case of Prince of Wales planning application showed. Which btw someone reminded me Hopkins supported initially.)

I think these kinds of advertising campaigns blur the distinction between what is rightly part of the commercial world with parts of society which should be places from which commodification is excluded. (Which is the whole point of campaigns like this. Its what clever creatives in advertising want. )

If large companies want to donate to a project like the radio station they can do so without any strings attached. Like any other charitable giving.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 6, 2015)

Makes me think of that thing with estate agents' boards advertising school fairs, etc. As if the estate agents are doing their bit for the community - all they're doing is buying advertising space for themselves at a cheap rate (and space that's probably not anyone's right to sell in the first place - but they get away with it because it seems to be for a good cause).


----------



## Maharani (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> What is that?


Lettu'ced ale...all the rage down at Pop...


----------



## Maharani (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> What is that?


in fact the 'drink' looks like lots of cod liver oil capsules...I wouldn't put it past them...


----------



## editor (Aug 7, 2015)

I thought that the Adidas thing was going to be confined to the big stage they'd built on the car park, but, no, they've taken over a large chunk of the 'green oasis' too.

And slapped their branding all over it, natch.

 



> Pop Brixton is a pioneering new space created with the local community in mind to showcase the best and most exciting independent start-ups and businesses from Brixton and Lambeth, where they can share space, skills and ideas.
> 
> We are providing an affordable space for start-ups and small businesses....


Yep. That's Adidas.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 7, 2015)

maybe that's just the VIP area
perfectly reasonable of course!


----------



## editor (Aug 7, 2015)

There is a HUGE amount of security prowling around the area too.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 7, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought that the Adidas thing was going to be confined to the big stage they'd built on the car park, but, no, they've taken over a large chunk of the 'green oasis' too.
> 
> And slapped their branding all over it, natch.
> 
> ...



"Imagine a green oasis..."


----------



## deadringer (Aug 9, 2015)

H


Tricky Skills said:


> "Imagine a green oasis..."



Ho hum!

As shit as the T&C's are for this Addidas branded event, realistically what does it mean? They MAY use an image.....I doubt they are going to find the next Messi at Pop........most of this bluster is arse covering legal shite......can't see why there is so much anger (again!!!!!)


----------



## deadringer (Aug 9, 2015)

editor said:


> There is a HUGE amount of security prowling around the area too.



To keep "the oiks" out innit


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> can't see why there is so much anger (again!!!!!)



A sports company want to stage a sports event. They choose a location that isn't a sports centre. The 'management' of the non-sports centre (Karl Turner Architects) will be taking a considerable fee for staging the sports event. KTA has been given the land for free by Lambeth Council.

Next door there is a huge sports centre. It is owned by Lambeth Council. It is in need of investment. Lambeth Council is trying to 'identify' where £6m can be found to keep the Rec open.

Not anger from me - just a complete mistrust of the whole Pop process.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 9, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> The 'management' of the non-sports centre (Karl Turner Architects) will be taking a considerable fee for staging the sports event. KTA has been given the land for free by Lambeth Council.


Lambeth put in the land. KTA raised the cash for development costs (1,500,000). We've been told that they are on a 50/50 profit share. This is in line with the original Grow proposal describing "substantial profit share for Lambeth", increasing annually after year 2). Lambeth have no more handed the land over for free than KTA have handed over 1,500,000 for free. Even if we don't have all the fine details, you understand the principle, right?


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 9, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> The 'management' of the non-sports centre (Karl Turner Architects) will be taking a considerable fee for staging the sports event.



How much have they received from Adidas?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 9, 2015)

The addidas thing is outside of Pop isn't it?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 9, 2015)

Oh. I missed the posts above.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 9, 2015)

.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> How much have they received from Adidas?



I'm trying to find out. Have you got any pointers or knowledge please?


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 9, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> I'm trying to find out. Have you got any pointers or knowledge please?



No idea sorry. I assumed when you said they "will be taking a considerable sum" that the figure was already known.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> No idea sorry. I assumed when you said they "will be taking a considerable sum" that the figure was already known.



I very much doubt that Karl Turner Architects is offering the global sports brand considerable use of the space on a mates for rates deal. If you hear anything, please let us know.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 9, 2015)

Hopefully this FoI may be able to explain how much corporate companies are charged to use Council owned land.

In retrospect I should have done this for that bloody awful Coors thing in Windrush Square as well.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 9, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Hopefully this FoI may be able to explain how much corporate companies are charged to use Council owned land.
> 
> In retrospect I should have done this for that bloody awful Coors thing in Windrush Square as well.


It was about 13,000 as I recall. But that included contributions toward maintenance.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 9, 2015)

Saying KTA will "take a considerable sum" makes it sound like they just get a load of cash and bank it. But presumably this is one of the corporate deals that balance the books for the project. We don't know how much profit they will make. I assume they have taken on a risk that they lose money (as i guess have Lambeth if it's set up as a profit share).


----------



## teuchter (Aug 9, 2015)

(That's not saying that I particularly like these kinds of things where public money goes into partly private ventures. But it's a bit unfair to take it as a given that KTA are going to make a killing on the project and to imply they've been given public assets for "free".)


----------



## 299 old timer (Aug 9, 2015)

Essentially, at what point was adidas involved? I understand that 1.5m has to be clawed back, but if adidas were involved from the beginning, amidst talk of green oasis and community blah blah I can only think deeply cynically of the whole process. I understand that alcohol sales can begin to recuperate some of the money invested, but clearly this has now entered a new realm. Council and megacorp co-operation?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> (That's not saying that I particularly like these kinds of things where public money goes into partly private ventures. But it's a bit unfair to take it as a given that KTA are going to make a killing on the project and to imply they've been given public assets for "free".)



The interesting question is what happens if Pop does not break even.

Will the Council step in to cover any losses?

The Council have invested a lost of political capital into the project. (See Cllr Hopkins blog). Its now imo a joint project between KTA and Council in practise. So now the project is to big to fail so speak.

The Council are not charging for the use of the land. So if the project just breaks even will not get a penny. The profit share will only happen if Pop more than covers the cost. So effectively the Council is subsidising this project. This is not a commercial venture. Its an unhappy hybrid of public/ private.

As Hopkins says its an experiment to see how entrepreunership/ social enterprise plus the state ( the Council) can deliver social good outcomes. If I get Jackos Nu Labour ideas right.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 9, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Essentially, at what point was adidas involved? I understand that 1.5m has to be clawed back, but if adidas were involved from the beginning, amidst talk of green oasis and community blah blah I can only think deeply cynically of the whole process. I understand that alcohol sales can begin to recuperate some of the money invested, but clearly this has now entered a new realm. Council and megacorp co-operation?



I do not think Adidas were involved at beginning. Pop has been getting a coverage in press.Soho creatives loved Brixton Village now its Pop. So if they have a campaign to run they look around and think of Pop.

But yes its Nu Labour Council getting into co operation with a mega corp.


----------



## T & P (Aug 9, 2015)

Went there for only the second time today. Very busy yet a chilled & pleasant enough vibe, but then with weather like this the place is bound do well.

I was confused by the Base Brixton stage within the Pop premises. This has an Adidas sign on display but is a separate stage from the temporary Adidas stage previously discussed on this thread that has been erected just outside of Pop. Presumably the two are related? There were a couple of blokes messing about doing 'football skills' in there but nothing else much happening.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

Here's a bit more about what's happening at Adidas Brixton.

"To tie in with the launch of its new trainers, Adidas is taking over the Pop Brixton event space with a replica football pitch."















> Kicking-off six months of activity, Adidas X Pop Brixton launches today (7 August) at the community site in south London, and will run until 12 August.
> 
> The interactive installation will see "high-energy footballing challenges" for the local community to take part in, including an on-site tournament, which will be open to anyone over the age of 16...
> 
> ...


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 10, 2015)

Ahh - the beautiful game: "Adidas X Pop Brixton, interactive installation, high-energy footballing challenges, ACE15, BaseBrixton 2v2 ,Be The Difference World Final."

This means absolutely nothing to me.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 10, 2015)

Perhaps you're not the target audience?


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Perhaps you're not the target audience?


I don't imagine that many people in Brixton are, which seems strange as it was supposed to be a pioneering new space created with the local community in mind.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 10, 2015)

It's aimed at 16 - 18 year olds. Its inevitable that the language used to attract them isn't the same as the language that us three 40+ somethings use or comprehend.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 10, 2015)

Out of interest, is anyone under 30 reading this?  If so, put your hand up!


----------



## elmpp (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm more likely to believe the results of market research


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> I'm more likely to believe the results of market research


And what are the results of this market research that you're putting so much faith in? Where was it published? Who commissioned it?


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> It's aimed at 16 - 18 year olds.


And the press of course.







Nice to put on a sports event for young kids in what is essentially one big bar area. Really appropriate.


----------



## elmpp (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> And what are the results of this market research that you're putting so much faith in? Where was it published? Who commissioned it?


Adidas


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Adidas


And what does it say relating to this Brixton promotion? Where was it published?


----------



## elmpp (Aug 10, 2015)

Boring


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> And the press of course.



You recognise these two then?


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> You recognise these two then?


Are they gardeners explaining their role in creating Brixton's new community green oasis?


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 10, 2015)

Yes, that's definitely who they are. 

They're part of Gardener's World's Brixton outreach programme. Percy Thrower on the left.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 10, 2015)

But their global horticultural fame might be reflected in the press attention.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> But their global horticultural fame might be reflected in the press attention.


So long as it's all about promoting horticulture and creating a green oasis, that's all fine by me.


----------



## newbie (Aug 10, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Hopefully this FoI may be able to explain how much corporate companies are charged to use Council owned land.
> 
> In retrospect I should have done this for that bloody awful Coors thing in Windrush Square as well.


too late for this year, but are you aware of the powers mentioned in this letter I found in a local paper?


----------



## T & P (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> And the press of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I myself don't see much of an issue at all. Is it any more inappropriate than selling and drinking alcohol around kids at other sporting events, such as football grounds, and even football terraces?


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

T & P said:


> I myself don't see much of an issue at all. Is it any more inappropriate than selling and drinking alcohol around kids at other sporting events, such as football grounds, and even football terraces?


But this isn't a football ground. It's supposed to be a 'green oasis' serving, 'startups, small businesses, local entrepreneurs and community organisations'.

I don't think a heavily branded multinational 'takeover' wedged between two bars in a drinking environment particularly fits that brief or is a particularly appropriate place to target the young for sport. You disagree? Fine.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 10, 2015)

The vagueness of claims about what has and hasn't changed since the original Grow:Brixton proposal (and the neverending repetition of the "green oasis" soundbite) are kind of frustrating. So I have been trying to find some record of what was initially proposed.

Earlier in the thread it was implied that the original proposals had been "disappeared" but in fact you can download the presentation here:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...=ufVhG9nss2lTfkQ1EIeElA&bvm=bv.99804247,d.ZGU

For anyone interested.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> The vagueness of claims about what has and hasn't changed since the original Grow:Brixton proposal (and the neverending repetition of the "green oasis" soundbite) are kind of frustrating. So I have been trying to find some record of what was initially proposed.
> 
> Earlier in the thread it was implied that the original proposals had been "disappeared" but in fact you can download the presentation here:
> 
> ...


Some of the documents have indeed disappeared from their original locations, but that document pretty much backs up what I feel about how much the project has changed.

This graphic paints a very different picture to what is there now.





And this doesn't seem to tally with Adidas City:


> grow:knowledge: apprenticeships, training schemes and courses
> grow:food: plant nurseries, growth of food for the cafe, inspiring people to grow their own
> grow:culture: performance & gallery space, exhibitions from local schools and local artists
> grow:enterprise: rental spaces for young start-up businesses and local businesses to expand
> grow:community: meeting areas, event space, green space together we will grow:brixton



Anyone seen the 'hatchery and incubator'?

There's no mention of multinational takeoevers either. Funny, that.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 10, 2015)

When you make a competition entry for this kind of thing, you don't have full knowledge of all the things that come up when you try and translate it into a real project. You don't know everything about the practical, logistical, regulatory and financial hurdles that you will have to negotiate. It's unrealistic to expect the final thing to match the very initial proposals exactly.

I'd say the question is whether what we have now is different enough from what was shown in that proposal to say that people were substantialy misled in terms of what they were told they were getting.

I'm not sure. The "horticultural" element does seem to have been scaled back a lot. (I'm not sure what's so inherently worthy about the horticultural element anyway but that's another disussion.) Elsewhere, in the bit about revenue streams they talk about being experienced in gaining corporate sponsorship but they do talk about maintaining the project's "integrity" and not becoming "logo city". I would agree that the adidas thing seems to run contrary to that, somewhat.

It's not like the whole scheme was about vegetables in polytunnels though. There's quite a lot in that document about entrepeneurship and business. Even "enriching" entrepeneurs. The "business park for the 21st century" doesn't seem to be entirely out of line with the initial proposals. 

They explicitly talk about expanding on the eating and drinking culture already established in the village.

But, I am trying to make this judgement with insufficient knowledge about exactly what, aside from the food/drink bits is now sucessfully in action on the site. As I understand it, the 2nd/3rd phases aren't yet complete. I look forward to some objective reporting in future Brixton Buzz articles.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> But, I am trying to make this judgement with insufficient knowledge about exactly what, aside from the food/drink bits is now sucessfully in action on the site. As I understand it, the 2nd/3rd phases aren't yet complete. I look forward to some objective reporting in future Brixton Buzz articles.


Please feel free to do your own research too and produce your own 'objective reporting' rather than expecting Buzz to provide exactly what you want. As you've already pointed out, people will no doubt have different takes on whether Pop has strayed too far from its original brief, what with its Adidas logos and corporate takeover.

Remember: no one gets paid for Buzz and we're already kept very busy indeed chasing up council stories, documenting local news, publicising local campaigns and providing thousands of listings for free to local businesses etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Yes, that's definitely who they are.
> 
> They're part of Gardener's World's Brixton outreach programme. Percy Thrower on the left.



Wondered what the awful stench was.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Anyone seen the 'hatchery and incubator'?
> 
> There's no mention of multinational takeoevers either. Funny, that.


They certainly referred to corporate sponsorship as a source of funding.

What do you think the hatchery and incubator refer to?


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> They certainly referred to corporate sponsorship as a source of funding.
> 
> What do you think the hatchery and incubator refer to?


Could you see the bit where they said that the place would be 'taken over' by a multi national corporate with an almighty additional structure erected on the car park? I must have missed that. 

Your other question makes no sense.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Could you see the bit where they said that the place would be 'taken over' by a multi national corporate with an almighty additional structure erected on the car park? I must have missed that.
> 
> Your other question makes no sense.


No it wasn't specific. It just said that they would use corporate sponsorship as a main source of funds.

You asked if anyone had seen the hatchery and incubator. I asked, or intended to ask, what you understood hatchery and incubator to mean? I hope that's clearer.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 10, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Next door there is a huge sports centre. It is owned by Lambeth Council. It is in need of investment. Lambeth Council is trying to 'identify' where £6m can be found to keep the Rec open.



Oh no it doesn't! Unless BRUG are lying? http://brixtonrecusersgroup.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/brug-newsletter-july-2015.html



> *Funding the Rec: Facts and Myths*
> *Many stories circulate about who finances the Rec and the state of the building. We've done a helpful summary of the myths and facts...
> 
> Myth:* The Council subsidises the Rec. The Council repeatedly argued it could not afford to continue to subsidise the Rec when it was threatening to close it in 2012.
> ...



To me that looks pretty self funding? It just needs an injection of cash, which once done will be recouped over time?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 10, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Oh no it doesn't! Unless BRUG are lying? http://brixtonrecusersgroup.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/brug-newsletter-july-2015.html
> 
> To me that looks pretty self funding? It just needs an injection of cash, which once done will be recouped over time?



Cabinet [pdf] agreed the following on 27th July:

"Further maintenance and repairs in the order of £6m, based on engineers’ surveys, are required to keep the building open. This is while detailed reports are concluded to identify the scale and costs of the refurbishment required to secure the long term future of the BREC, to make it fit for the future and the next generation of Lambeth’s residents."


----------



## teuchter (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Please feel free to do your own research too and produce your own 'objective reporting' rather than expecting Buzz to provide exactly what you want. As you've already pointed out, people will no doubt have different takes on whether Pop has strayed too far from its original brief, what with its Adidas logos and corporate takeover.
> 
> Remember: no one gets paid for Buzz and we're already kept very busy indeed chasing up council stories, documenting local news, publicising local campaigns and providing thousands of listings for free to local businesses etc.


Neither do I get paid for my work on here


----------



## ddraig (Aug 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Neither do I get paid for my work on here


you are a proper joke
pathetic


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> No it wasn't specific. It just said that they would use corporate sponsorship as a main source of funds.
> 
> You asked if anyone had seen the hatchery and incubator. I asked, or intended to ask, what you understood hatchery and incubator to mean? I hope that's clearer.


You really don't know what a hatchery is? 
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatchery

A search on Google says that the word is notably absent from Pop Brixton's site.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Neither do I get paid for my work on here


Buzz performs a useful service and helps an awful lot of people. I'm afraid I can't same the same about you.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

I note that Adidas has extended its presence even further into the green oasis.

I'm not sure there's enough security on hand in amongst all the corporate branding. Still, it all adds a real nice community feel to proceedings.


----------



## Manter (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> You really don't know what a hatchery is?
> Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatchery
> 
> A search on Google says that the word is notably absent from Pop Brixton's site.


Don't most birds nest in spring? So they wouldn't have a hatchery at this time of year, would they? I hope they do introduce one next year.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 10, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Cabinet [pdf] agreed the following on 27th July:
> 
> "Further maintenance and repairs in the order of £6m, based on engineers’ surveys, are required to keep the building open. This is while detailed reports are concluded to identify the scale and costs of the refurbishment required to secure the long term future of the BREC, to make it fit for the future and the next generation of Lambeth’s residents."



That's already in the link I provided! 

The Rec makes 1.5 million pounds a year in profits..... 6 million is how many years of profits? 

If 6 million is invested in the Rec to make it last 5 more years (5 x 1.5 mil profit) = 1.5 million profit after we deduct the 6 million investment. 

Every year it remains open after that = + 1.5 million more. 

The reason it needs the cash is because 2/3 rds of it's profits go to supporting 50/50 the Councils coffers and a regeneration fund (some invested back into the Rec). 

So this 6 mil is about protecting revenue streams short term and mitigating cost due to long term benefit. 

If you had a 1.5 million a year revenue stream that would last X years would you sack it off for 6 million or jeopardise all it's funding for a footy tourney that brings in pennies? 

But still......


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 10, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> That's already in the link I provided!
> 
> The Rec makes 1.5 million pounds a year in profits..... 6 million is how many years of profits?
> 
> ...



Don't quote the logics of Lambeth Council finances at me


----------



## Rushy (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> You really don't know what a hatchery is?
> Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatchery
> 
> A search on Google says that the word is notably absent from Pop Brixton's site.


So when the original and enthusiastically received Grow! proposal in April 2014 referred to start up businesses renting desk space in the Incubator and Hatchery, you thought ... what exactly?


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

Rushy said:


> So when the original and enthusiastically received Grow! proposal in April 2014 referred to start up businesses renting desk space in the Incubator and Hatchery, you thought ... what exactly?


I thought they may have little birds flapping around on their desktops after a while. I'd like that myself. It would be better than looking at an Adidas corporate takeover.

Better a tweety bird than a multinational logo is what I say.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 10, 2015)

All the bullshit is bad enough. They dont need bird shit as well.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 10, 2015)

Lucky it's not Twitter sponsoring it; you wouldn't whether to love it or hate it.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> When you make a competition entry for this kind of thing, you don't have full knowledge of all the things that come up when you try and translate it into a real project. You don't know everything about the practical, logistical, regulatory and financial hurdles that you will have to negotiate. It's unrealistic to expect the final thing to match the very initial proposals exactly.
> 
> 
> But, I am trying to make this judgement with insufficient knowledge about exactly what, aside from the food/drink bits is now sucessfully in action on the site. As I understand it, the 2nd/3rd phases aren't yet complete. I look forward to some objective reporting in future Brixton Buzz articles.



So what are you saying?

That its unfair to judge how this has ended up as "its unrealistic to except the final thing to match initial proposals",

And you cannot make a judgement as you have insufficient knowledge and its not finished yet.

If its unrealistic to make a judgement based on initial proposals. What are the the criteria you will use to make a final judgement on the scheme? 

What date/ facts will you need to make a considered judgement? At what point in the this project will you feel you can make a judgement? When its finished and a final audit of its social worth can be made? As thats likely to be in several years time.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> It's aimed at 16 - 18 year olds. Its inevitable that the language used to attract them isn't the same as the language that us three 40+ somethings use or comprehend.



And what is the language that this age group use?

I do bump into media creatives in my every day life who plan these kind of advertising campaigns. They are not 16-18 year olds. There knowledge of youth culture is also second hand.

Secondly a lot of them are degree educated middle class professionals. They may be bright but imo they have no greater connection to life on the streets than some 40 somethings.

In actual fact some of us might ( and I am 50 plus) more connection with what its like than some of the media creatives I have met.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> And what is the language that this age group use?
> 
> I do bump into media creatives in my every day life who plan these kind of advertising campaigns. They are not 16-18 year olds. There knowledge of youth culture is also second hand.
> 
> ...



Quite right. And adults are rubbish at writing books for children. Bloody charlatans


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> In actual fact some of us might ( and I am 50 plus) more connection with what its like than some of the media creatives I have met.


Grampa Simpson:
"I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was. Now, what I'm with isn't it, and what's "it" seems weird and scary to me. It'll happen to you!"


----------



## teuchter (Aug 10, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So what are you saying?
> 
> That its unfair to judge how this has ended up as "its unrealistic to except the final thing to match initial proposals",
> 
> ...



I'm saying what I said in my previous post!

I didn't say what you've put in quote marks there. I said it was unrealistic to expect it to match initial proposals exactly. It seems some people are skim-reading that initial proposal document, picking out some words here and there mentioning very specific elements (and in any case misunderstanding what they actually meant) and then complaining that they can't see them in what's been built.

It is fairer and more useful to look at what they stated the principal aims of the project were, and judge it against that. Banging on about the specific wording - like "green oasis" - from some PR statement ignores the fact that the initial proposal contains - for example - rather a lot about encouraging entrepeneurship and supporting start-up businesses. There's been criticism that it's "turned into" a "business park for the 21st century" but that doesn't seem like much of a divergence from what was contained in the original proposal, if you actually go back and read it.

I've said that I agree that the "horticulture" element seems to have largely disappeared.

I've said that I agree the adidas thing doesn't really seem to be in the spirit of the original proposal.

The food and drink bits, which were part of the original proposal, seem to have materialised.

The bits about providing subsidised space for start up businesses, etc, I'm not quite sure, because as far as I can make out these elements are not fully operational yet. So, I await further information and i expect my judgement of the extent to which it's fulfilled its originally stated aims will change over time.

I think it would be good if this thread could try and gather information about all aspects of the scheme, and whether or not they are functioning as originally proposed. 

Quite a substantial portion of this thread appears to have proceeded in discussing whether the scheme has departed from the original intentions, without actually referring back to the initial proposal documents, which, it was suggested, had been "disappeared". But it turns out that a few minutes on google finds them. Isn't that a little telling, in terms of the extent to which folk are interested in being objective about this?

And to be quite clear, I don't particularly like the general principle of this kind of scheme. The accountability seems muddy. How much public money is actually going into it and what are we really getting in return - I don't feel confident that it's a good "deal". But I would like to try and understand what's actually happening; what's actually materialised and what hasn't. And of course we can't hope to know the full answer to that until the project has actually run its course.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I didn't say what you've put in quote marks there. I said it was unrealistic to expect it to match initial proposals exactly. It seems some people are skim-reading that initial proposal document, picking out some words here and there mentioning very specific elements (and in any case misunderstanding what they actually meant) and then complaining that they can't see them in what's been built.


It's quite unrealistic and unreasonable to expect the public to trawl through lengthy PDF documents, particularly when they're being presented by a 'co operative' council that is supposedly actively seeking feedback from the general public.

So the overall, branding, feel, imagery and use of plain English keywords become essential to conveying the essence of the project, and I'm of the opinion  that what was presented (or suggested) has fallen far, far short of what has been delivered thus far.

And if anything has been 'misunderstood', then that's the fault of those presenting the plans, because there seems to be no shortage of locals who are wholly dissatisfied with what the place has turned into. Like me, they expected one thing and got something quite different - and looking back through the thread, I'd say that a lot of people thought they were getting something different to the full-on Adidas-branded '21st century business park' we've got now.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 10, 2015)

editor said:


> It's quite unrealistic and unreasonable to expect the public to trawl through lengthy PDF documents, particularly when they're being presented by a 'co operative' council that is supposedly actively seeking feedback from the general public.
> 
> So the overall, branding, feel, imagery and use of plain English keywords become essential to conveying the essence of the project, and I'm of the opinion  that what was presented (or suggested) has fallen far, far short of what has been delivered thus far.
> 
> And if anything has been 'misunderstood', then that's the fault of those presenting the plans, because there seems to be no shortage of locals who are wholly dissatisfied with what the place has turned into. Like me, they expected one thing and got something quite different .


The proposal is about 250 words and lots of pretty pictures.

ETA: and it was prepared by KTA and Edible Bus Stop.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 10, 2015)

I would be astonished if 'no shortage of locals are wholly dissatisfied' with Pop Brixton.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I'm saying what I said in my previous post!
> 
> I didn't say what you've put in quote marks there. I said it was unrealistic to expect it to match initial proposals exactly. It seems some people are skim-reading that initial proposal document, picking out some words here and there mentioning very specific elements (and in any case misunderstanding what they actually meant) and then complaining that they can't see them in what's been built.
> 
> ...



I was asking clarification on exactly how you will judge this scheme.

The specific answer I get is that you will not be able to do that until the scheme is finished. Thats a long way off but is one way to do it.

What I am not clear on is what criteria you will judge the scheme. Which I now take you will not do until its finished.

You say that its 





> "its unrealistic to except the final thing to match initial proposals",



Now you are saying it has not diverged much from original proposals. So which one is that its (a)unfair to judge due to fact that a scheme like this comes up against financial etc realities and changes or (b) it has not much diverged from initial proposals.

You are saying what you refer to as a PR statement mislead people. In which case that already says something about how this project should be judged. Clearly people were mislead. All the stuff about green oasis was to get gullible people like me to support the scheme.The PR was in Future Brixton.

No where in the original scheme is the wording 21st c business park mentioned. In actual fact if you want to get exact about it this was something Cllr Hopkins said in his blog in relation to the Pop Brixton scheme.

The pretty pictures of how it would look were one of the ways I judged the proposal. That fact that it looks nothing like original proposal is something its legitimate to criticise.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I would be astonished if 'no shortage of locals are wholly dissatisfied' with Pop Brixton.



All the ones I know are. 

The Adidas thing has not helped.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 10, 2015)

Gramsci you are misreading what I said. I did not say "its unrealistic to except the final thing to match initial proposals", I said it was unrealistic to expect it to match them exactly.

And I'm not saying that "it has not diverged much from original proposals". In some aspects it does seem to have diverged. I'm saying that if someone describes it now as a "21st Century Business Park" then to me, that's not a divergence from what was in the original proposals. The concept of it being there to support and provide space for businesses is not something that's suddenly appeared out of nowhere, it's been a central part of what it is supposed to be about from the beginning _as well as other stuff_ -



(that is from the Edible Bus Stop /KTA presentation).

What criteria will I judge the scheme on? For the purposes of this discussion (which is about whether or not it was misrepresented to people) - the criteria will be to what extent it does what they said it would do, and whether what happens is in the spirit of the original competition entry or whether it has morphed into something altogether different.

Outside of this discussion the criteria I'll judge it on will depend on the question being asked.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 10, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Oh no it doesn't! Unless BRUG are lying? http://brixtonrecusersgroup.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/brug-newsletter-july-2015.html
> 
> 
> 
> To me that looks pretty self funding? It just needs an injection of cash, which once done will be recouped over time?



A bit off topic but the issue of Rec making a surplus  was something BRUG only learnt about in detail recently. For years the assumption has been that the various Recs in Lambeth do not bring in enough in income. As far as BRUG know its only Ferndale that requires extra funding on a yearly basis.

Unlike parks and libraries the Recs in Lambeth charge for use. Which is why I was not happy that they were put into the Culture2020 consultation. They operate on a different basis.

( BRUG has been telling Council that the prices for use are to high. The costs is prohibitive for many people. Brixton Rec is unusual in the high number of payg users who do not use monthly DD. This is sign of low income users being high.)

So I think you could be right and cash could be recouped over time. Also as one third of income from Rec went into general Council pot over years a fair amount of money has been got by Council as income.

Who and when it was decided that one third of Rec income should go to general Council funds I do not know.If you use the word "profit" they get very upset. There preferred wording is "surplus".

Apparently not even some Cllrs and officers were aware of how it all worked.

The issue is that when the Rec was under threat a few years back one argument officers used was that Brixton Rec was a drain of Council finances.

To bring it back to Pop and the wonderful partnership of entrepreneurship and social good its showcasing. The old fashioned socialist dinosaur that is Brixton Rec works pretty efficiently. And has done for years.

This income covers ongoing maintenance and management. The Rec does however need a major refurbishment in the near future as all plant is old and needs replacing.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I would be astonished if 'no shortage of locals are wholly dissatisfied' with Pop Brixton.


I have no problem finding lots of locals people expressing that view. I hear it most times the place is brought up in discussion when I'm out and about or talking to neighbours on my estate. .


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The proposal is about 250 words and lots of pretty pictures.


It's *85 pages long*, for fuck's sake.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Gramsci you are misreading what I said. I did not say "its unrealistic to except the final thing to match initial proposals", I said it was unrealistic to expect it to match them exactly.
> 
> And I'm not saying that "it has not diverged much from original proposals". In some aspects it does seem to have diverged. I'm saying that if someone describes it now as a "21st Century Business Park" then to me, that's not a divergence from what was in the original proposals. The concept of it being there to support and provide space for businesses is not something that's suddenly appeared out of nowhere, it's been a central part of what it is supposed to be about from the beginning _as well as other stuff_ -
> 
> ...



According to what remains on Future Brixton website of the original scheme it still says this:


> Rather than leave space unloved in Brixton town centre, Grow Brixton will transform the old ice rink site on Pope’s Road into a verdant community growing space and vibrant cultural and educational hub. It will offer valuable opportunities to start up businesses, makers, doers and out of the box thinkers…. and it will grow strawberries, what’s there not to love?



The way I read this is that the "other stuff" was the central thing. With business one part of it.

The original drawings featured container units for small business but they did not dominate the whole space like they do now.

Anyone seen the strawberries?

pretty pic of how it was supposed to look


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The way I read this is that the "other stuff" was the central thing. With business one part of it.


Yep. And looking back to what people were saying at the start of this thread, it's clear that was pretty much the consensus too.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2015)

I was looking at what Hopkins said about this as reported in Brixton Buzz




> “The POP Brixton project on Pope’s Road (previously known as GROW Brixton) is another exciting and innovative part of Lambeth’s approach to working with community partners and developers with a social conscience to provide a range of enterprise and community space, along with employment and training opportunities for local people.
> 
> The project is a practical exercise amongst others to bring social value into the supply chain with private sector partners and we expect this to influence how we can change policy and practice with respect to this, alongside developing Brixton Works with the Brixton Business Improvement District, the Community Development Trust being developed with Brixton Green on Somerleyton Road and the Impact Hub in Your New Town Hall”



In light of Adidas I suppose that is what Jacko means about bringing social value into supply chain with private sector partners.

Hardly surprising Corbyn getting a lot of support from ordinary Labour people.

superfly101 brought up issue of Rec. Never hear that praised for its ability to be run efficiently enough to make a profit / surplus for the Council. But then Rec isn’t cutting edge progressive politics.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> According to what remains on Future Brixton website of the original scheme it still says this:
> 
> 
> The way I read this is that the "other stuff" was the central thing. With business one part of it.
> ...


Let me update that for you.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> I have no problem finding lots of locals people expressing that view. I hear it most times the place is brought up in discussion when I'm out and about or talking to neighbours on my estate. .



This I find even more implausible.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> It's *85 pages long*, for fuck's sake.



 85 pages.  Of which about 70 pages are photos of other projects with a handful of artists visualisations of Grow thrown in.

There are five pages labelled "The Process" each with about two to four lines of text per page accompanying a full page image detailing key stages of development.

Then there are five slide show style pages which give largely bullet point operational detail under the following headings:
Job opportunities
Rental Spaces
Income streams
Event spaces
Organisation breakdown

And that's it. The last 50 pages barely contain a single word. Takes about three minutes to flick through, skimming the photo filler.  

Re reading it I'm actually struck by just how commercially focused the original proposal was. Food and beverage concessions, office rentals, entrepreneurship, corporate sponsorship, income generation, profit share, business incubators  - it's all in there.

How this was ever credibly mistaken for a "vague hippy ideal" is a mystery.


----------



## Angellic (Aug 11, 2015)

View attachment 75223 View attachment 75223 Here's what you find on Google


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 11, 2015)

I personally was expecting something more open and a space that was more relaxed, as per the pics above. The claustrophobic, 3/4 container high version we have is not very relaxed or peaceful at all. It's quite the opposite. It reminds me a bit of the narrow allyways of the market place in Bladerunner...come the rainy months, it will be so even more.

I suspect having as few containers as presented in the artist impression of the proposal was never going to offer enough profit to make it worthwhile for the developers. it still seems a bit cheeky to show off pretty picture of a nice open, landscaped space and deliver a looming, steel, boxed in, squalid hovel.

Harrison Ford at Pop!


----------



## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

I agree it feels a bit claustrophobic, particularly when it gets busy. The original proposal was three high already and the first planning application four high iirc. I don't think that's so much the main culprit in making it feel claustrophobic.  The high bits are all to the north and east do that it does not cut out light. I think the blade runner feel comes primarily from the central containers under the poly tunnel seating area making corridors, which are impractically tight.

Visuals like this are useful but scale is too easy to misinterpret because you are looking down on it rather than from within. I wonder if anyone produced a 3D walk through rendering. Pretty common place these days.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 11, 2015)

Yeah, without doubt it's what they've done in the central section that has made it feel so tight to move around. A 3D rendering would have helped to better understand the space, but even those are easy to misinterpret for people who are not involved in fit out/construction/design.


----------



## pesh (Aug 11, 2015)

liberate one of these for an evening and rebuild it better. or just steal the entire site.


----------



## T & P (Aug 11, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I personally was expecting something more open and a space that was more relaxed, as per the pics above. The claustrophobic, 3/4 container high version we have is not very relaxed or peaceful at all. It's quite the opposite. It reminds me a bit of the narrow allyways of the market place in Bladerunner...come the rainy months, it will be so even more.
> 
> I suspect having as few containers as presented in the artist impression of the proposal was never going to offer enough profit to make it worthwhile for the developers. it still seems a bit cheeky to show off pretty picture of a nice open, landscaped space and deliver a looming, steel, boxed in, squalid hovel.
> 
> Harrison Ford at Pop!


 Funnily enough on one of the narrow 'streets' there is a Japanese bar/ food place, and it made me think of Blade Runner


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> 85 pages.  Of which about 70 pages are photos of other projects with a handful of artists visualisations of Grow thrown in.


So just to get this straight: you're actually arguing that a 85 page 10.6MB PDF document is actually rather small, yes, and quite perfect for trying to engage the general public?

Any thoughts on the use of large PDF documents for this purpose? Ideal, you think?


Rushy said:


> How this was ever credibly mistaken for a "vague hippy ideal" is a mystery.


Who are you quoting there?


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> This I find even more implausible.


And I take deep offence at you suggesting that I'm lying. We live in quite different worlds so don't you fucking dare presume that everyone sees things the same ways as you.


----------



## CH1 (Aug 11, 2015)

Apart from Pop, Jack Hopkins is now promoting business start-up loans form Funding Circle on his blog:
https://jackhopkins.wordpress.com/2015/08/11/new-support-for-local-businesses-in-lambeth/
Unfortunately the advert at the bottom of the page is for Harpic ("cleans round the bend")


----------



## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> So just to get this straight: you're actually arguing that a 85 page 10.6MB PDF document is actually rather small, yes, and quite perfect for trying to engage the general public?
> 
> Any thoughts on the use of large PDF documents for this purpose? Ideal, you think?
> Who are you quoting there?


Nope. Its great that it's available to anyone who is interested but the public, if they actually read anything about it at all, will have mostly read about it in secondary publications which they trust to have taken a few minutes to digest that "huge" 250 or so word document for them. 

When readers are told that "it may sound like a rather vague hippy ideal, but the details are very convincing", they can be forgiven for assuming the author has actually read the details (such as the 250 or so word proposal and/or the planning application) and been convinced by them.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Nope. Its great that it's available to anyone who is interested but the public, if they actually read anything about it at all, will have mostly read about it in secondary publications which they trust to have taken a few minutes to digest that "huge" 250 or so word document for them.


The way you're still trying to magic a weighty 85-page 10.6MB PDF document into being something as light and fluffy and accessible as "a 250 or so word proposal" really is quite amusing. And rather desperate, to be told. 

To read all those words they have to download and scroll through the entire thing - and be using a device capable of reading it.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 11, 2015)

It's not exactly unreasonable to assume that someone regularly writing local news articles will have the technology to download and read a PDF.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It's not exactly unreasonable to assume that someone regularly writing local news articles will have the technology to download and read a PDF.


Missed the point as usual, I see.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> The way you're still trying to magic a weighty 85-page 10.6MB PDF document into being something as light and fluffy and accessible as "a 250 or so word proposal" really is quite amusing. And rather desperate, to be told.
> 
> To read all those words they have to download and scroll through the entire thing - and be using a device capable of reading it.


Missed the point as usual, I see.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Missed the point as usual, I see.


I'm not the one missing the point here.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Missed the point as usual, I see.





teuchter said:


> I'm not the one missing the point here.


Please don't bother responding to any further posts I make.

I'm here to talk about Brixton, not to waste time interacting with hypocritical shit-stirrers who are happy to disrupt and trash any debate in their obsessive quest to score cheap personal points.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Please don't bother responding to any further posts I make.
> 
> I'm here to talk about Brixton, not to waste time interacting with hypocritical shit-stirrers who are happy to disrupt and trash any debate in their obsessive quest to score cheap personal points.



How exactly is it debate if you're not allowed to disagree? And how exactly are any of the points I have made hypocritical?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> And I take deep offence at you suggesting that I'm lying. We live in quite different worlds so don't you fucking dare presume that everyone sees things the same ways as you.



I am making a valid point about the dangers of anecdotes: that we hear what we want to hear, power of suggestion etc. 

I discount them where possible. 

And I will presume what I like, thank you.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Rushy said:


> How exactly is it debate if you're not allowed to disagree? And how exactly are any of the points I have made hypocritical?


Not interested in debating this. I've reached the end of the line with this bullshit. I made these forums to be a useful resource for interested parties to discuss Brixton matters, and I've had quite enough of being the continual focus of personal attacks and thread-trashing disruptive point-scoring marathons from the same minority.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I am making a valid point about the dangers of anecdotes: that we hear what we want to hear, power of suggestion etc.


All that waffly fluff doesn't alter the fact that you're still trying to call me a liar without a single shred of evidence to support that assertion. Stop it, please.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Not interested in debating this.



Indeed. I'd noticed.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Not sure if this was posted before, but here's Castaing talking about vibrancy.



Philippe's personal motto is "Profit for Purpose" apparently.


----------



## elmpp (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> The way you're still trying to magic a weighty 85-page 10.6MB PDF document into being something as light and fluffy and accessible as "a 250 or so word proposal" really is quite amusing. And rather desperate, to be told.
> 
> To read all those words they have to download and scroll through the entire thing - and be using a device capable of reading it.


pathetic


----------



## Lucy Fur (Aug 11, 2015)

elmpp said:


> pathetic


arse


----------



## teuchter (Aug 11, 2015)

Here is what Pop Brixton have to say about the horticultural element -


> *GREENING STRATEGY*
> 
> Pop Farm is the greening strategy and community gardening element of Pop Brixton. We want to create a verdant, planted and productive garden amidst the containers and concrete of Brixton!
> 
> ...



So they claim there will be more happening in the longer term.

This is from Urban Growth London's website:



> We are delighted to be managing the green spaces at this innovative and unique community space in the heart of Brixton. Following the design and installation of plants by (uncommon) Landscape Consultants [hyperlink www.uncommonland.co.uk], we are nurturing the plants to fill the interiors and cover the outside walls in a green and largely edible blanket of foliage and flowers. Writing in early summer 2015, the space is still developing and, like all growing things, will mature and develop through the seasons. Our aim is to grow as much food on site as possible, which will then be used by the wide array of caterers serving the local community. We already have a mobile orchard and dining room in a poly-tunnel, with lots more exciting green spaces under development.
> The site is open 7 days a week and we will be running workshops to engage the local community, educating everyone about the wonders of the plant world and how we can improve our cities through embracing horticulture.


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## deadringer (Aug 11, 2015)

I'm wondering if and when winter draws in and the outdoor drinking and eating areas become less attractive, more of the focus will be shifted to growing things. If I remember back to my childhood, seeds and things are planted in the autumn and bloom in the spring?


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## teuchter (Aug 11, 2015)

Well, the whole idea of a polytunnel is to allow growing out of the normal season, so they ought to be able to grow stuff in there year round.

When I was in there I didn't really look in detail at how the polytunnel is built. Whether it's been built to actually function as a greenhouse, or just to look like a polytunnel-y-ish thing.


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

The polytunnel area (aka the Garden Of Disorientation, whatever that means) is primarily used to house drinkers and street food grazers  (only allowed if purchased on site, natch) and it's likely to get a lot more crowded when the weather turns.

It can already get really busy with drinkers in the evenings.


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## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

It was always intended to house seating and tables. Its even shown in the early visuals. With planting around the edges. As they have done.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)




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## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

Seating, tables, planting. The cafe building in the middle has gone or moved. Not enough food for you?


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## ddraig (Aug 11, 2015)

cmon Rushy, what's your cut?


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## Chilavert (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Please don't bother responding to any further posts I make.
> 
> I'm here to talk about Brixton, not to waste time interacting with *hypocritical shit-stirrers who are happy to disrupt and trash any debate in their obsessive quest to score cheap personal points.[/*QUOTE]


Wasn't there supposed to be an end to personal attacks?

I've fucked up that quote.


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Chilavert said:


> Wasn't there supposed to be an end to personal attacks?


Yes that's why I'm calling an end to it. Once again. For the millionth time. I'm fed up with it.

Interested parties are of course free to keep slagging me off in their bumper PM thread where I believe new people have been invited into read my previous PMs, which is nice.

But this thread is about Pop Brixton. Make it about me, and warnings and bans will follow in line with the FAQ. Line drawn.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 11, 2015)

The GROW Brixton presentation annotates the poly tunnel as "FOOD: cafe, kiosks, cookery school"

Pretty much bang on what it is


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## Rushy (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Interested parties are of course free to keep slagging me off in their bumper PM thread where I believe new people have been invited into read my previous PMs, which is nice.



Talk about cross thread beef .


----------



## MrM (Aug 11, 2015)

I’m not sure my ha’p’orth is going to bring peace to the forum but here’s an attempt at finding a middle ground: it seems to me that a fair way to look at this is that it’s ‘not as good as we hoped, but better than nothing’.

Presumably no-one wanted to the plot to remain a scarred industrial wasteland, interesting in its own way, but not a positive contribution to Brixton life (regardless of your view on ‘old’ vs ‘new’ Brixton).

Personally I would have chosen Grow; I wouldn’t have chosen Pop. To be positive it is at least using the land productively to give some new businesses a chance and generate some jobs. And in the process, one can hope that the council will make some squids to be spent for the benefit of Lambeth residents.

But there is a strong and painful sense of unfulfilled hope here: The original Grow proposal seemed an unlikely victory of something ambitious and positive and life-affirming: combining the private and public sector for a mutually beneficial outcome to give small local businesses the chance to start up on a shoe-string; some lower-budget alternatives to the relentless price inflation of ‘aspirational’ products (burgers, cocktails, and so on). The green angle was central. No single initiative will solve climate change by itself, but Grow did at least seem to represent a vision to be copied: modern efficient progressive architecture that incorporates nature, showing the softening, even transformational, effect that (productive) plants can have on the sometimes cruel relentlessness of steel and concrete (while creating food, but other immediately local positives around air quality, rain storm drainage, and so on). A shop window showing that good fresh produce can be grown in the most unlikely and un-rural of places, and that any space – whether a small flat on an estate, or a house in a leafy side street, or a major public space – can be part of making an urban environment greener and more positive.

I do feel a bit betrayed and bereaved by the failure to marry the hard efficiency of the private sector’s profit motive and the more human public-sector objectives for environment. It’s currently a business park with food and drink at high prices; it doesn’t seem to be going out of its way to encourage the sort of low-cost options a young maverick and entrepreneurial spirit is likely to need. Businesses that can put together serious pitches for proper funding aren’t really what the space should be about.

I think I’ll give them a chance to prove my worst fears are unfounded: perhaps they’ll offer the low-cost units once the bigger spenders are secure (that’s an unambiguous claim in Philippe’s video linked above); perhaps the planting and horticulture will become a bigger, truer and more engaged part of what they do once the set-up is bedded in. perhaps the financial agreement with the council won’t be a total stitch-up, and might help relieve a tiny bit of the pressure on council budgets.

Well, maybe…


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

MrM said:


> I think I’ll give them a chance to prove my worst fears are unfounded: perhaps they’ll offer the low-cost units once the bigger spenders are secure (that’s an unambiguous claim in Philippe’s video linked above); perhaps the planting and horticulture will become a bigger, truer and more engaged part of what they do once the set-up is bedded in. perhaps the financial agreement with the council won’t be a total stitch-up, and might help relieve a tiny bit of the pressure on council budgets.


I hope you're right, but given what's happened at Philippe’s other venture - Brixton Green -  I fear that things are more likely to get worse than better.


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The GROW Brixton presentation annotates the poly tunnel as "FOOD: cafe, kiosks, cookery school"
> 
> Pretty much bang on what it is


Here's a picture of the polytunnel.

Could you point out where the cafe, kioks and cookery school are please?


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## leanderman (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> All that waffly fluff doesn't alter the fact that you're still trying to call me a liar without a single shred of evidence to support that assertion. Stop it, please.



It's not waffly stuff. 

I simply don't credit any argument based on 'and a number of people agree with me'.


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I simply don't credit any argument based on 'and a number of people agree with me'.


Good job I clearly wasn't expressing anything other than my personal experience then.

Your 'argument' here, however, has gone along the lines of, "I haven't heard that myself and don't agree with those sentiments anyway, therefore anyone claiming that anyone thinks that way must be dismissed with incredulity or put down as a teller of "implausible" claims (i.e. a liar).


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## teuchter (Aug 11, 2015)

I went on a lunchtime fact finding mission earlier.

Successfully brought in a sandwich purchased outside, and sat down and ate it without issues. I noticed someone else eating a reduced price wrap from Tescos. That said, the "no outside food or drink" sign is still up at the entrance and there's one at the top of the ramp into the polytunnel too. They need to sort this out. Either remove them or admit that it's offiial policy.

Unsurprisingly less crowded (and a bit more mixed) compared to when I went on a weekend night. Quite a few (mainly young) folk hanging around the Adidas stage thing. There were people just sitting around, generally, and not all of them looked like they were spending money there. Some people that looked like tourists, taking photos.

I hadn't appreciated how big the yet-to-be opened bit is. It's the whole of the bit identified as "makerspace" in red on the original plans. I'd assumed that bit had just been scaled down but it's not open yet. It looks to me that when it is, there will be additional open space between it and the back of the polytunnel building.

Looks to me like the polytunnel is perfectly capable of functioning as a greenhouse. It was noticably warmer/more humid in there even today. It will be interesting to see how it functions in the winter. I think when it's busy there'll be no problem keeping it warm. Having space for people to sit/stand/drink is obviously not the most efficient use of space if its sole purpose were cultivation but I don't think it was ever billed as that. 

For the record, beer prices: £3.50 seems to be going rate on most food stalls for a bottle. Pints of ale on tap available for £4/£5 cask/keg at the Port Authority place. Elsewhere, pints ranging from £4.15 up to over £5. The £7.50 beer is still there.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Here's a picture of the polytunnel.
> 
> Could you point out where the cafe, kioks and cookery school are please?



The cookery school - I imagine - is much like the CV workshop they ran, in that it will be an occasional thing.

And the rest comes under the main heading of FOOD. Of which there are plenty of photos of people eating food in there. 

And if you bothered to read the original proposal, you would see that the polytunnel and the surrounding iso containers were collectively - not individually - labelled. Actually, you're right, they have lied to us; those bastards held the CV workshop in the area clearly marked out for food!


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The cookery school - I imagine - is much like the CV workshop they ran, in that it will be an occasional thing.


Where did it say it was going to be an "occasional thing"? Where's the cafe?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Good job I clearly wasn't expressing anything other than my personal experience then.
> 
> Your 'argument' here, however, has gone along the lines of, "I haven't heard that myself and don't agree with those sentiments anyway, therefore anyone claiming that anyone thinks that way must be dismissed with incredulity or put down as a teller of "implausible" claims (i.e. a liar).



As well as the unreliability of what people tell us they think etc ...

I see a certain circularity in telling people on U75 and Brixton Buzz that Pop has broken its promises then reporting on U75 that people are upset that Pop has broken its promises. 

Especially now that, if Rushy is right, it has very much lived up to its brief.


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> As well as the unreliability of what people tell us they think etc ...


That's right. Everything is good. It's only a few silly confused nasty people on urban who don't *heart* Pop and if any of those say that other people think the same as them, they can be safely dismissed and swatted away as being "implausible" or non existent.


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## snowy_again (Aug 11, 2015)

I don't think there's anyone on here saying Pop is good. Some bits might be poor, some average and some haven't started yet.


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## ddraig (Aug 11, 2015)

yes they are, nothing it does is wrong


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## snowy_again (Aug 11, 2015)

Fine, that's your interpretation. How was your experience of it?


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## ddraig (Aug 11, 2015)

not been and not likely to go


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## snowy_again (Aug 11, 2015)

Why not? Even just to see whether it meets the original goals or not?


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## ddraig (Aug 11, 2015)

because i can't afford it and it would wind me right up


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## 299 old timer (Aug 11, 2015)

ddraig said:


> because i can't afford it and it would wind me right up



You don't have to spend any money. Plenty of people sit on the benches reading a book or a newspaper. Actually, it would help soften up the none too great industrial setting by putting benches and planters outside, licence permitting.


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## Mr Retro (Aug 11, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> I don't think there's anyone on here saying Pop is good. Some bits might be poor, some average and some haven't started yet.


Some bits are good too. The food is fantastic.


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> You don't have to spend any money. Plenty of people sit on the benches reading a book or a newspaper. Actually, it would help soften up the none too great industrial setting by putting benches and planters outside, licence permitting.


Not much fun spending an evening in a place where everyone is eating and drinking except you.


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## 299 old timer (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Not much fun spending an evening in a place where everyone is eating and drinking except you.



I've passed a couple of times - roughly around 6.30 early evening - there was a mix of people reading, others drinking, and others eating. I can't comment on later on, as I've not been there at later hours, but I can take a guess and presume that it changes into a more foodie and drink orientated venue, not unlike many other places nearby.


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## deadringer (Aug 11, 2015)

And there is nothing to stop people on a very tight budget drinking at home, then wandering in for free, enjoying the atmosphere and DJ for free if they so wish. 

Or sneaking in their own drinks, I've been know to do that myself at festivals, 500ml bottle of vodka decanted into a plastic bottle goes a very long way!


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## editor (Aug 11, 2015)

Oh what fun that sounds.


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## deadringer (Aug 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh what fun that sounds.



There is no better feeling having been searched by a bouncer and being sent on your way with some booze stuffed down your pants!


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## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2015)

leanderman said:


> As well as the unreliability of what people tell us they think etc ...
> 
> I see a certain circularity in telling people on U75 and Brixton Buzz that Pop has broken its promises then reporting on U75 that people are upset that Pop has broken its promises.
> 
> Especially now that, if Rushy is right, it has very much lived up to its brief.



Out of interest have you read all the pdfs about Grow Brixton / Pop Brixton? Have you followed all the various planning applications?

So you can judge in an impartial way based on the facts.

This is a message board. What do you want me to do? Get a microphone and record what people say to me about Pop?

What is this circularity? I speak to a lot of people in Brixton area who do not post up here. They , without me asking , have been critical of how Pop has turned out.

At least you say if Rushy is right. So I take it you are being perfectly balanced here. Neither on one side or the other. Waiting for the evidence that is not biased. Very laudable of you. With your understanding of how observer bias works.

So you will not be able to have considered view on Pop at this time?

Along with Teuchter you will wait until the project is finished and an in depth analysis is done of its effects. An analysis whose methodology takes account of observer bias.


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## Gramsci (Aug 11, 2015)

MrM said:


> I do feel a bit betrayed and bereaved by the failure to marry the hard efficiency of the private sector’s profit motive and the more human public-sector objectives for environment.



And this is the crux of the matter.

Its what Cllr Jack Hopkins bangs on about in his blog. Jacko is saying that the Council is treating this as a test of how how this will work.

Its what is causing the arguments here. Some of us want the human objectives and others laud the entrepreneurial values. 

The Nu Labour "Third Way" was supposed to keep both sides happy.That is the marriage of hard headed private sector plus human public sector. 

Pop is example of how the Third Way does not work. And imo opinion if this model comes up against a problem the solution is to gravitate towards the private sector/ profit motive.

Will Jacko and fellow Nu Labour Cllrs learn lessons from this? I doubt it.

The reason I used the Brixton Rec as example of a different way is that its a model that works that is not praised or even noticed by Nu Labour Cllrs. Its a public sector model that produces a surplus/ profit.


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## teuchter (Aug 11, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its what is causing the arguments here. Some of us want the human objectives and others laud the entrepreneurial values.



No, that is a misrepresentative simplification of where the disagreements are. 

That's how several people are trying to paint it, but it's untrue.


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2015)

teuchter said:


> No, that is a misrepresentative simplification of where the disagreements are.
> 
> That's how several people are trying to paint it, but it's untrue.



Its from what I see on this thread what is at the bottom of the disagreements here.

There are two opposed views of what the meanwhile use was supposed to end up as.

However I will put in third category of those who cannot decide on a view until all the facts are at there disposal.


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## alfajobrob (Aug 12, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its from what I see on this thread what is at the bottom of the disagreements here.
> 
> There are two opposed views of what the meanwhile use was supposed to end up as.
> 
> However I will put in third category of those who cannot decide on a view until all the facts are at there disposal.



I'll put in a fourth category. Those that like arguments and those that don't like to be argued with.


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## alfajobrob (Aug 12, 2015)

I love it all - wouldn't it be boring if we all agreed


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## SpamMisery (Aug 12, 2015)

There are also those who don't really care and are amazed by the passion being displayed in arguing over such a trivial event


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 12, 2015)

For those that 'don't really care' there are numerous other threads they can waste their time on.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 12, 2015)

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" probably helps explain why they get involved


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 12, 2015)

That sounds like caring to me.


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## teuchter (Aug 12, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its from what I see on this thread what is at the bottom of the disagreements here.
> 
> There are two opposed views of what the meanwhile use was supposed to end up as.
> 
> However I will put in third category of those who cannot decide on a view until all the facts are at there disposal.


The question of what the use was originally _presented_ as being about (and whether the reality matches it), is a completely different question to that of what anyone thinks the use _should_ have been about.

You seem to be reading comments pointing out that the entrepenuership stuff was in the original application, and taking that to mean that whoever is making those comments is in favour of that entrepenuership stuff being the main purpose of the project.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 12, 2015)

I suppose you're right; it is caring. But not so much about the nitty gritty of whether there are as many pot plants as the original proposal indicated


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## editor (Aug 12, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I suppose you're right; it is caring. But not so much about the nitty gritty of whether there are as many pot plants as the original proposal indicated


If you don't think what's happening at Pop Brixton is worth discussing, why not jog on instead of trying to ridicule people with inane misrepresentations?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 12, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I suppose you're right; it is caring. But not so much about the nitty gritty of whether there are as many pot plants as the original proposal indicated



Well, for a scheme that started out as 'Grow Brixton' I would argue that the level of horticultural activities that have remained part of the final set up is fairly key to the discussions around what was proposed and what has been delivered.

It doesn't matter so much to me, I'm not especially bothered by the inclusion of greenery, but others may feel strongly about, what appears to be, a whole lot less of what was originally suggested.


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## Rushy (Aug 12, 2015)

The debate really has not moved on since this exchange in December 2014:



Tricky Skills said:


> All change!
> 
> This is actually pretty shoddy. There has been a 'difference in the style of management' between Carl Turner Architects and the Edible Bus Stop folk. It has led to the EBS walking away. Plans for Grow Brixton have now moved down to Loughborough Junction.
> 
> ...





Rushy said:


> I always understood the Grow proposal to have a significant business enterprise angle, didn't it?



Since that point CTA, Castaing and Pop have been repeatedly positioned as Urban enemy No.1.

Yet the original joint EBS / CTA proposal of April 2014 is blatantly clear about the enterprise focus of the project. Entrepreneurship, corporate sponsorship, food and beverage concessions, office rentals, substantial and growing profit shares. They're all in the proposal. EBS's departure did not trigger a change. Before it was even chosen it was focused on enterprise.

My thoughts on Pop? Firstly, I'm amazed at what has been achieved with an empty site in such a short time, particularly given the short expected lifespan of the project making it hard to recoup costs.

Secondly, I am really pleased to see small office spaces becoming available in Brixton. These are desperately needed if we want to attract jobs and skills to the area. I think the environment will be fun and exciting for young businesses. And it's great that some will be subsidised by others.

The food and drink is less important to me but it clearly makes the rest of the project viable. So I'm glad that has been successful. It was never going to offer the cheapest booze and I don't think it important that it does. As people have pointed out, there is already cheaper grog available in Brixton. I've had a handful of very fun nights out in Pop but it's probably a bit crowded and excitable for me to go all that often.

Opening the leisure focussed part before the much more substantial office and workshop element has doubtless led to some misconceptions about the project's value.

I don't much like corporate sponsorship. But it has its place and provides income. I dropped in to see the Adidas thing yesterday. Within Pop the advertising is limited to a big Adidas logo and a Base Brixton logo both inside the stage area where they are performing. It is certainly conspicuous but from what I'd read, I was expecting it to be everywhere. What was over bearing were the shouty comperes and I could not even be bothered to try to understand what was going on. But I am not the target - other people appeared to be pretty into it. If that kind of thing were there regularly I would never visit. Keeping it to a short sharp shock every now and again would be fine by me. I don't imagine all the shouty stuff will be appreciated by those who move in to the offices anyway.

The main planting difference between the proposed and executed projects seems to me to be the roof tops. I fully expect that to be completed once the offices are ready for occupation. I'll be disappointed if it's not. They are certainly still promising to keep up with the plant to plate idea. I can't see how in a site of that small size it was eve going to be more than a token showcase, but it remains to be seen. As long as it is enough to engage local kids, as they are promising to do, that will satisfy me.

I don't see how anyone can judge the success of the time bank until the bulk of the businesses are on site whose employees are supposed to be contributing towards this. I'm sure there will be those who try to do as little as possible as well as those who fully embrace it.

It's a meanwhile project and the council had no cash to fund something themselves. If anyone had a brilliant self funding more purely "community" idea, they didn't propose it.  It may not be what everyone expected or hoped for but tearing it apart on every single tiny detail and continuing to pretend that since the departure of EBS it has gone wildly adrift from what we were originally offered is simply bollocks.


----------



## editor (Aug 12, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Since that point CTA, Castaing and Pop have been repeatedly positioned as Urban enemy No.1.


How are they "Urban enemy No.1"? 

Some people support what they're doing, some are indifferent, some are deeply suspicious and some are quite angry about it. There is no 'urban consensus' or party line, and people are absolutely free to express their opinions about the place.


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## Rushy (Aug 12, 2015)

editor said:


> Please don't bother responding to any further posts I make.


Ok.


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## trabuquera (Aug 12, 2015)

we will continue to bicker about Pop until the lease expires and construction begins on the permanent plans for the site. remind me again, have those been decided yet or not? or is it another Lambeth boondoggle in the making? Perhaps in 2 yrs' time we can begin bickering about that instead (it'll be more serious at that stage because the next lot of plans will be permanent bricks and mortar stuff.....)


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2015)

teuchter said:


> You seem to be reading comments pointing out that the entrepenuership stuff was in the original application, and taking that to mean that whoever is making those comments is in favour of that entrepenuership stuff being the main purpose of the project.



You are correct. That is what I think.  There are posters here who go on about Pop who also are the same ones who are lukewarm in there support for the small business threatened by Network Rail in the arches. I think there are opposing and irreconcilable views on how Brixton should develop in the future.

Also my view is that "entrepreneurship" ( and I need spell check for it) was secondary to the community "Grow" bit. Perhaps those like me who supported original proposal were naive. I am not totally against all forms of the "free enterprise"

The wider issue I have is with this Nu Labour "Third Way" to bring together market and socially good outcomes.

Which is what MrM picked up on.

Taking it away from individual posters here I think one way to measure this project is if it does do what MrM correctly sees as the object of the project:



> The original Grow proposal seemed an unlikely victory of something ambitious and positive and life-affirming: combining the private and public sector for a mutually beneficial outcome to give small local businesses the chance to start up on a shoe-string; some lower-budget alternatives to the relentless price inflation of ‘aspirational’ products (burgers, cocktails, and so on). The green angle was central.



So far its thumbs down from me.

As MrM is not one of the usual suspects its interesting to read that posters views on the matter. Its evidence that the "green" bit of the original project is something that people picked up on.

The Adidas advertising campaign just confirms to me how far the original concept has morphed into a Nu Labour business friendly at all costs project. If thats what Cllr Jacko thinks is good for Brixton I fear for the permanent future of this site.


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## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> we will continue to bicker about Pop until the lease expires and construction begins on the permanent plans for the site. remind me again, have those been decided yet or not? or is it another Lambeth boondoggle in the making? Perhaps in 2 yrs' time we can begin bickering about that instead (it'll be more serious at that stage because the next lot of plans will be permanent bricks and mortar stuff.....)



They are in process of being discussed. ( to add edit for clarification. They are in process of being discussed in the Council but residents are not getting much in way of info what the Council thinking on a "delivery model" is) I did attend the Brixton Central Masterplan "consultation" meetings.

What concerns me is:


The Council are looking at Pop as experiment into the virtues of public and private working together. The lessons learned will be used in the permanent development of the site. And other areas in Brixton and LJ.

The Council in particular Cllr Jacko think its all going wonderfully at Pop.

Council are looking at progressive and innovative, in there view, ways of including civil society in regeneration of Brixton. Groups such as Brixton Green, Green Man Skills and Pop are who Council will be working with. I expect the KTA involvement in "regeneration" of Brixton will not end when Pop ends.

I wonder how much say those who are not in this network of groups will have in the future. There has been no follow up meeting of the Brixton Central masterplan reference group since NR decided to evict the shopkeepers from the arches.


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## teuchter (Aug 12, 2015)

teuchter said:


> You seem to be reading comments pointing out that the entrepenuership stuff was in the original application, and taking that to mean that whoever is making those comments is in favour of that entrepenuership stuff being the main purpose of the project.





Gramsci said:


> You are correct. That is what I think.



If that's what you really think, then your line of reasoning is faulty. But you explain in your next sentence the real reason you've decided that those pointing out the inclusion of the entrepeneurship stuff are also its greatest fans -



Gramsci said:


> There are posters here who go on about Pop who also are the same ones who are lukewarm in there support for the small business threatened by Network Rail in the arches. I think there are opposing and irreconcilable views on how Brixton should develop in the future.



You've already decided what views they have. You've decided, based on what they have (or seemingly haven't) said on other subjects. That's not entirely unreasonable. However, I suspect that in many cases, if we went to examine what views those people have on those other subjects, we'd probably be redirected along the lines of "well I assume they are taking this position because of something I think someone said they once said about something else".

This seems to happen quite a lot on here. People find they are "supporters" or "enemies" of something they've never even commented on, based on suppositions based on suppositions.

And some of those suppositions are planted deliberately, as a kind of low-level smear tactic. It's not very honest.

When you talk about "irreconcilable views on how Brixton should develop" I think you overstate the degree of disagreement there is on many things (at least within discussions on here). For example, I think you'd find hardly any regular posters here who want the arches to become full of chain stores and for all the existing businesses to disappear. Where you'll find the disagreement is more in how (or if) that can be prevented. What one person considers the most effective means to the end might be considered impractical and futile by another. Or a distraction from addressing the bigger forces that are the real reason it's happening. But so often, when you attempt to have that kind of discussion you find yourself presumed to have certain motivations or wishes. Depending on how thick-skinned you are, you either plough on regardless or are put off commenting at all.

That's not to say that there aren't widely differing views on how Brixton should develop. I'm sure there are plenty of people who genuinely don't care if it turns into Notting Hill or Greenwich or Spitalfields, and indeed would welcome it. Those people are never going to spend much time posting on urban75 though. There's an appetite to find them here _somewhere_, though, amongst the regular posters. It's a shame that this means the scope of discussion so often gets limited as a result.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 12, 2015)

teuchter said:


> You've already decided what views they have. You've decided, based on what they have (or seemingly haven't) said on other subjects. That's not entirely unreasonable. However, I suspect that in many cases, if we went to examine what views those people have on those other subjects, we'd probably be redirected along the lines of "well I assume they are taking this position because of something I think someone said they once said about something else".
> 
> This seems to happen quite a lot on here. People find they are "supporters" or "enemies" of something they've never even commented on, based on suppositions based on suppositions.
> 
> ...



In one recent case I asked outright if one poster supported the arches. As I guessed they did not. They said they didn’t. 

People making suppositions or trying to smear is going to work both ways. So that’s not going to get us very far in discussing who is making the most suppositions.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 13, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> You are correct. That is what I think.  There are posters here who go on about Pop who also are the same ones who are lukewarm in there support for the small business threatened by Network Rail in the arches. I think there are opposing and irreconcilable views on how Brixton should develop in the future.


What do you mean "go on about Pop". I support Pop *because* it has given so many small businesses a start. Why would that mean I wouldn't support the businesses in the arches? Or have I understood what you are saying wrongly?


----------



## editor (Aug 13, 2015)

The lack of support for the Cressingham Gardens campaigners here continues to break my heart. That's what really needs support right now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The Adidas advertising campaign just confirms to me how far the original concept has morphed into a Nu Labour business friendly at all costs project. If thats what Cllr Jacko thinks is good for Brixton I fear for the permanent future of this site.



What Smiling Jacko Hopkins thinks is good for Brixton, is whatever is good for Jacko Hopkins.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

editor said:


> The lack of support for the Cressingham Gardens campaigners here continues to break my heart. That's what really needs support right now.



To be frank, ed, I'd rather not have support from people who can't or won't understand the needs of those who are going to be socially-cleansed from places like Cressingham and Central Hill. Some of them have argued about the applicability of the term "social cleansing", because the council has promised to rehouse all tenants back on the estate, if they want to return. What doesn't get noised about by these condescending liberal numpties is that just the cost of living in those *smaller* new properties will be higher than our current costs. None of the council flats are on water meters (we pay a weekly rate based on previous usage estate-wide), every new residence will be at least one CT band higher than current residences, social rent will be higher, and unless we're pretty slick, it's likely that Lambeth Council will try to lock the social housing into a monopoly long-term utility-provider contract along the lines of Myatts' Fields North.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> They are in process of being discussed. ( to add edit for clarification. They are in process of being discussed in the Council but residents are not getting much in way of info what the Council thinking on a "delivery model" is) I did attend the Brixton Central Masterplan "consultation" meetings.
> 
> What concerns me is:
> 
> ...



The council either don't understand, or deliberately ignore the fact that the best way of "including civil society" is to include civil society, rather than instead including those who wish to act as intermediaries (for whatever mundane or nefarious reasons we wish to attribute to them).


----------



## teuchter (Aug 13, 2015)

If you've got a vacant site, which you want to occupy with some kind of "meanwhile" use (and no public money to spend on it) -

What would be a practical example of how you "include civil society" in doing something, with no one in an intermediary role?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2015)

teuchter said:


> If you've got a vacant site, which you want to occupy with some kind of "meanwhile" use (and no public money to spend on it) -
> 
> What would be a practical example of how you "include civil society" in doing something, with no one in an intermediary role?



You ask people.

Take the case of Somerleyton road which Cllr Jacko mentions in with Pop, Impact Hub and I forget to say Brixton BID ( who are forgettable)as the civil society that the Council work with.

Council decided that Brixton Green would be the intermediary for this site. Did they ask the residents who lived on the site ( Carlton Mansions HC) or nearby residents groups there opinion on having Brixton Green as the "community partner". No the Council did not.

Despite my best efforts Council do not want input from the likes of me. Another example are those nice but naive people from Small World Urbanism. They did not understand why there input into the Somerleyton road project was suddenly not wanted. Told them that is not how it works.

The first start, if the Coop Council, is to mean anything then it should actively go out there and ask people. And the Council does have plenty of officers whose job it is to engage residents. Its not like they are short of them.

Secondly the Council ran a competition for this site. Grow Brixton won it. That scheme fell apart for reasons it unlikely are going to be public. My view, already posted here, is that the runner up should have got the project in that case.

What has happened is that this has now morphed into a Council project along with KTA. Along with the ever helpful offshoot of Brixton Green.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> What do you mean "go on about Pop". I support Pop *because* it has given so many small businesses a start. Why would that mean I wouldn't support the businesses in the arches? Or have I understood what you are saying wrongly?



Fair enough you support the existing shopkeepers in the arches and the present incarnation of the meanwhile use on the old ice rink site. 

Anyone else who has been enthusing about Pop who is 100% behind the shopkeepers under threat of eviction on Brixton Station Road by Network Rail? That is they want them to stay. 

I am willing to be proved wrong here. 

I did not say all posters here. 

I have asked this before.


----------



## Manter (Aug 13, 2015)

Me. I like pop, it's had good fun things for my son to do and has been mixed and friendly whenever I have been there. I know one of the small businesses that have been given a start, too. I am also 100% behind the arches traders, have written to all the local MPs and network rail, have a poster in my front window that has provoked questions from delivery drivers, and the postman (some of the drivers are really local but weren't aware of it)...

(Edited)


----------



## Winot (Aug 13, 2015)

Gramsci - as I have said before, the problem often with some on this site is an Inability to appreciate nuance. There is a 'with us or against us' philosophy. As it happens, I support the Arches businesses more wholeheartedly than I support Pop, but no doubt my attempt to redress the balance in relation to Pop has marked me down as 'against us' in your eyes. 

People are more complex than you give them credit for.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

teuchter said:


> If you've got a vacant site, which you want to occupy with some kind of "meanwhile" use (and no public money to spend on it) -
> 
> What would be a practical example of how you "include civil society" in doing something, with no one in an intermediary role?



The issue isn't about intermediaries _per se_, so please don't try and make it so. It's about the council picking and choosing who gets to intermediate, and using that choice to shape things to their (generally pre-determined) ends.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 13, 2015)

What does "100% behind" mean?

What if I want them to stay but think there should be a modest rent rise instead of an extreme one?

What if someone wants the middle class deli to stay but not the pawnbrokers? How many % do they get?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 13, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The issue isn't about intermediaries _per se_, so please don't try and make it so. It's about the council picking and choosing who gets to intermediate, and using that choice to shape things to their (generally pre-determined) ends.


So how should the intermediaries be selected?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2015)

teuchter said:


> So how should the intermediaries be selected?



See my post #3384


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2015)

teuchter said:


> What does "100% behind" mean?
> 
> What if I want them to stay but think there should be a modest rent rise instead of an extreme one?
> 
> What if someone wants the middle class deli to stay but not the pawnbrokers? How many % do they get?



The 100% means all the shops staying there at no rent rise. As the shops have said before they have paid rent for years with little or no maintenance from NR.

Not the I support the shops maybe but I want to see what NR plans etc are first line of argument.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2015)

Winot said:


> Gramsci - as I have said before, the problem often with some on this site is an Inability to appreciate nuance. There is a 'with us or against us' philosophy. As it happens, I support the Arches businesses more wholeheartedly than I support Pop, but no doubt my attempt to redress the balance in relation to Pop has marked me down as 'against us' in your eyes.
> 
> People are more complex than you give them credit for.



If you really think that you are the one who does not give me credit for being more complex than you think.


----------



## Winot (Aug 13, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The 100% means all the shops staying there at no rent rise. As the shops have said before they have paid rent for years with little or no maintenance from NR.
> 
> Not the I support the shops maybe but I want to see what NR plans etc are first line of argument.



No rent rise at all is a pretty high bar. What, ever?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> You ask people.
> 
> Take the case of Somerleyton road which Cllr Jacko mentions in with Pop, Impact Hub and I forget to say Brixton BID ( who are forgettable)as the civil society that the Council work with.
> 
> ...



The thing with imposing intermediaries like Brixton Green is that while it could be *assumed* (by local observers who don't "do" local politics) that they're a neutral force, there's little guarantee that the likes of the Brad 'n' Phil show *are* neutral with regard to development and regeneration, for all the (so far rather threadbare) claims to be a "community organisation".



> The first start, if the Coop Council, is to mean anything then it should actively go out there and ask people. And the Council does have plenty of officers whose job it is to engage residents. Its not like they are short of them.
> 
> Secondly the Council ran a competition for this site. Grow Brixton won it. That scheme fell apart for reasons it unlikely are going to be public. My view, already posted here, is that the runner up should have got the project in that case.



I'm not sure that KTA were perfidious enough to engineer EBS's departure, but it's certainly played well for them. 



> What has happened is that this has now morphed into a Council project along with KTA. Along with the ever helpful offshoot of Brixton Green.



"Ever helpful"? You say that like they actually do something/anything!


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 13, 2015)

Winot said:


> No rent rise at all is a pretty high bar. What, ever?



I mean not a big jump. Rents do rise with inflation etc. But I meant NR tarting up arches and deciding to charge two or three times more as they know they could get that- so called market prices and all that.


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## teuchter (Aug 13, 2015)

So is it "no rent rise", or "not a big jump"?

What counts as a "big jump"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

teuchter said:


> So how should the intermediaries be selected?



The most usual process if you want to ensure "neutrality" (an ideal rather than an achievable aim, but still worth pursuing) is to appoint independent arbitrators to do so, not to use a _faux_-"community organisation" and/or an organisation the local authority has/has had a financial relationship with, which is bad practice even when (as I'm sure Lambeth's relationship with Green Man is) the relationship is one of utmost probity.

E2A:  IIRC Lambeth have used Social Life in a neutral intermediary role, but have consistently picked and chosen from the information Social Life has produced for them, including blocking publication of final versions of reports they've produced. This has made Social Life employees annoyed enough to "leak" copies of those reports. I have a couple regarding Cressingham Gardens.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 13, 2015)

What do they currently pay per square foot, what is the current market rate per square foot and what are they are being asked to pay once refurbished?


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## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2015)

Manter said:


> Me. I like pop, it's had good fun things for my son to do and has been mixed and friendly whenever I have been there. I know one of the small businesses that have been given a start, too. I am also 100% behind the arches traders, have written to all the local MPs and network rail, have a poster in my front window that has provoked questions from delivery drivers, and the postman (some of the drivers are really local but weren't aware of it)...
> 
> (Edited)



Fair enough. 

And thanks for understanding what I was asking about.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What do they currently pay per square foot, what is the current market rate per square foot and what are they are being asked to pay once refurbished?



I know your position on the shops. You have already said you do not support them.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 14, 2015)

I have said I do not know whether I support the regeneration because I do not know the facts. I support the shop owners continuing with their businesses however. Please don't label me as some anti-the arches campaigner


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## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I have said I do not know whether I support the regeneration because I do not know the facts. I support the shop owners continuing with their businesses however. Please don't label me as some anti-the arches campaigner



I take this as a no- you do not support the threatened shops.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 14, 2015)

A no to what? You didn't ask me a question


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## SpamMisery (Aug 14, 2015)

In response to your edited post, you will see I've already said 



SpamMisery said:


> I support the shop owners continuing with their businesses


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> In response to your edited post, you will see I've already said



Stop playing games. Manter understood what I was getting at.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 14, 2015)

I asked a simple question but got drawn into some sidebar argument. I'm going to bed.


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## snowy_again (Aug 14, 2015)

Gramsci - your argument makes an assumption that all U75 Brixton posters must post all of their entire brixton news, views, gossip, support, lobbying etc. on here.

For me it's just one part of Brixton - those fortunate, socially included, wealthy & digitally included enough to find the time to post. Let alone needing a relatively tenacious thick skin to bother coming back again and again.

My Brixton & Lambeth is way more than this forum. I chose to post about some things and chose to do other things off the forum about causes raised here but elect not discuss them here. That may sound a little like 'he does a lot of work for charidee' But when I was a front line service provider on the high street I found my anti Lambeth comments were easily attributable to me - and that put services commissioned by C&YPS under greater scrutiny. There is a more complicated link between personal & professional opinion web posting nowadays.

E.g. I may not know Vp or greebo but I've spent time with old friends and colleagues who live in cressingham to talk funding, JR, press & govt contacts. It might have helped, it might not- but either way, it's delightful to be subsequently called snidey, divisive, politically dismissive false claims based solely on the assumption that unless all my actions and views are posted on here they never happened. Not directly by you, but insinuated through 'if you don't post it, you don't believe it' mentality you and others expressed.

You're being divided and ruled by that way of thinking. And Lambeth & Tory policy will find it easier to achieve their aims.

99% of regular posters here agree with the social housing concerns - how you mobilise a disparate, group of people along a spectrum between 'absolutely agree' to 'agree in principle, but don't warm to emotive language & am prone to question absolute statements' is the challenge - and we're all doing this outside regular democratic processes. We'll spend thousands of hours bickering on here - which could fix some things if focussed the right way. 

Anyway, apologies for the rant, I was just made to watch a geologically incorrect volcano disaster film and was banned from pointing out the flaws, so ive transferred that to here. Have a good evening.


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## Gramsci (Aug 14, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Gramsci - your argument makes an assumption that all U75 Brixton posters must post all of their entire brixton news, views, gossip, support, lobbying etc. on here.
> 
> For me it's just one part of Brixton - those fortunate, socially included, wealthy & digitally included enough to find the time to post. Let alone needing a relatively tenacious thick skin to bother coming back again and again.
> 
> 99% of regular posters here agree with the social housing concerns - how you mobilise a disparate, group of people along a spectrum between 'absolutely agree' to 'agree in principle, but don't warm to emotive language & am prone to question absolute statements' is the challenge - and we're all doing this outside regular democratic processes. We'll spend thousands of hours bickering on here - which could fix some things if focussed the right way.



And you are assuming posters here are wealthy. They are not. I may have an internet connection and an old computer to keep in touch but apart from that I feel increasingly less socially included. ie cannot afford to go to cinema much anymore. Most bars and pubs are now out of my reach.

However I do feel there is often a disconnect between what I hear people I bump into in Brixton say and what is said here.

Nor do I think posters should post up everything. I do not post up about everything I do or say around Brixton either.

As for "snidey" comments. Well that does not come from one section of the posters here. Its from all sides. 

Nor is it something I indulge in. There is a difference between and frank discussion and snidey comments.

My way of posting is so that I can try and avoid some the attacks I see others getting here when they voice an opinion. Its something that is increasingly trying my patience to keep doing.


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## alcopop (Aug 14, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What do they currently pay per square foot, what is the current market rate per square foot and what are they are being asked to pay once refurbished?


 Would be interesting to know this


----------



## 299 old timer (Aug 14, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What do they currently pay per square foot, what is the current market rate per square foot and what are they are being asked to pay once refurbished?



These links may help you hazard a guess, straight from the horses mouth, as it were

http://property.networkrail.co.uk/home.aspx

http://property.networkrail.co.uk/f...om=0&rentto=1000000&proptype=5,4,10&alltypes=


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 14, 2015)

Pop Brixton effected by heavy summer rain fall...


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 14, 2015)

I'd planned a picnic in Brockwell Park tomorrow too. 
Can I borrow that container?


----------



## T & P (Aug 14, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Pop Brixton effected by heavy summer rain fall...


I was wondering just how much emptier the place will be on evenings like this...

However I reckon they could do better than expected in winter so long as it's dry. Londoners have never been afraid of outdoor drinking and eating if the place is reasonably sheltered from the wind, and with a few strategically placed heaters it'll probably be alright.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 14, 2015)

I imagine they must have factored the winter into their plans


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 14, 2015)

Apparently it was still fairly busy despite the rain..


----------



## Manter (Aug 14, 2015)

Weather'll probably be better over winter than it is now....


----------



## Maharani (Aug 14, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Apparently it was still fairly busy despite the rain..


Cos the hipsters want to show off their rainwear...
Edited as I can't spell.


----------



## discobastard (Aug 14, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Cos the hipsters want to show off their rainwear...
> Edited as I can't spell.
> 
> View attachment 75364
> View attachment 75365


Might as well wear a binbag.   Actually that would probably score you hipster points.
Shame the Lambeth recycling bags are no longer orange, colour blocking v 'in' this season..


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 14, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Cos the hipsters want to show off their rainwear...
> Edited as I can't spell.
> 
> View attachment 75364
> View attachment 75365



Shamewear


----------



## Maharani (Aug 14, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Shamewear


shamwear.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 16, 2015)

Id wear that man's jackett


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 16, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Id wear that man's jackett



With too Ts.

Sweett


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 21, 2015)

8 fucking quid for a jerk chicken leg with some rice....

Fuck off


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 21, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> With too Ts.
> 
> Sweett


it's a kenny  jackett


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 22, 2015)

Finally tried Hook today. Lovely. Best (non chippy) fish and chips I've had in a long time.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2015)

Any bones?


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## SpamMisery (Aug 22, 2015)

Nope


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2015)

Shame


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## SpamMisery (Aug 22, 2015)

I make no bones about it


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## Mr Retro (Aug 22, 2015)

Just back from Pop actually. We been on the piss all day so after the Canterbury we popped in for a beer and a burger from that Indian burger place. 

As seems to be the norm now in Pop, the server guy was fantastically friendly and enthusiastic about what they were doing. The burger was beautiful. 

The place was busy but not jammed, the people in there were friendly and smiling and enjoying themselves. I too, enjoyed myself for the hour or so I was there.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> As seems to be the norm now in Pop, the server guy was fantastically friendly and enthusiastic about what they were doing. The burger was beautiful.
> 
> The place was busy but not jammed, the people in there were friendly and smiling and enjoying themselves. I too, enjoyed myself for the hour or so I was there.


It sounds like heaven on earth. Such joy! Such friendliness! Such a beautiful burger! Truly totes amazeballs.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 22, 2015)

editor said:


> It sounds like heaven on earth. Such joy! Such friendliness! Such a beautiful burger! Truly totes amazeballs.


What's your problem? Seriously? Am I not entitled to my opinion of a place without having to put up with your sarcastic reply to my honest opinion?

If I replied like you did above to one of your posts as you did to mine, you'd be whining about how personal abuse was *ruining *this forum. 

And if I was allowed to reply in kind I'd fucking fillet you. But you'll hide behind "personal abuse" and once it's put up to you, you run and hide behind *personal abuse ruining this forum. *


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> And if I was allowed to reply in kind I'd fucking fillet you.


What on earth are you on about? Exactly how would you "fucking fillet me"? 

Your endless frothing hyperbole about the awesomeness of Pop borders on parody it's so far over the top - and I've been there enough times to know that it really isn't this utopian vision you keep on presenting. In fact, it almost sounds like you're trolling for a reaction.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 22, 2015)

editor said:


> What on earth are you on about? Exactly how would you "fucking fillet me"?
> 
> Your endless frothing hyperbole about the awesomeness of Pop borders on parody it's so far over the top - and I've been there enough times to know that it really isn't this utopian vision you keep on presenting. In fact, it almost sounds like you're trolling for a reaction.



He said he went there for a burger and it was really good and the guy was friendly. I don't see how that qualifies as "endless frothing hyperbole" but you just stick to avoiding the questions he asked.

I've still not been, but I'd kill for a decent burger now.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 22, 2015)

editor said:


> what on earth are you on about? Exactly how would you "fucking fillet me"?


I am saying if you didn't hide behind your authority, 'it's *ruining* these boards"  I would easily beat you in any debate we had. But you won't have a debate. You'll scuttle off and hide. 



editor said:


> Your endless frothing hyperbole about the awesomeness of Pop borders on parody it's so far over the top - and I've been there enough times to know that it really isn't this utopian vision you keep on presenting. In fact, it almost sounds like you're trolling for a reaction.



Now I've stopped laughing at you:

I'm not saying Pop is awesome. Is my post above "endless frothing hyperbole about the awesomeness of Pop"? I just said the server was really good, as was the burger. That's all. I'm not presenting a utopian vision. I just got a tasty burger from a friendly person. Christ I'm sorry. 

Are you ok mate?


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I just said the server was really good, as was the burger. That's all. I'm not presenting a utopian vision.


Yes, that's _exactly _how you wrote it: "The server was good as was the burger."


Mr Retro said:


> I am saying if you didn't hide behind your authority, 'it's *ruining* these boards"  I would easily beat you in any debate we had. But you won't have a debate. You'll scuttle off and hide.


How many pints did you have tonight?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 22, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, that's _exactly _how you wrote it: "The server was good as was the burger."
> How many pints did you have tonight?


If I asked that question, how would you react?


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If I asked that question, how would you react?


It would be a perfectly legitimate question if I'd just posted up in the same thread about being "on the piss all day", so I'd have no problem telling you.

Is that a problem?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 22, 2015)

Hmmm I wonder. But anyway, No problem . I have indeed been on the piss all day. Heartbreakingly finishing in the Canterbury which will close next week.

In turn can I clarify? If I or anybody else gives an honest opinion of a business that has started up, that this opinion is ok to be ridiculed?

And if you give a similar opinion of a business that has opened elsewhere, which you approve of, I can in kind ridicule that opinion?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> He said he went there for a burger and it was really good and the guy was friendly. I don't see how that qualifies as "endless frothing hyperbole" but you just stick to avoiding the questions he asked.



TBF he said the burger was "beautiful", not that it was "really good", and that the server was "fantastically friendly and enthusiastic", not that he was merely friendly. The former come across like public relations hyperbole, while the latter come across as fair comment.



> I've still not been, but I'd kill for a decent burger now.



Really? Do you take commissions?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF he said the burger was "beautiful", not that it was "really good", and that the server was "fantastically friendly and enthusiastic", not that he was merely friendly. The former come across like public relations hyperbole, while the latter come across as fair comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Do you take commissions?



Mealy mouthed bollocks. I have no interest the place, but it is what it is and like all of Brixton nowadays. It's young - we are old. Get over it. You should see what's happening to Vauxhall. That would make you froth.

No - I'm not an absolute psychopath.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, that's _exactly _how you wrote it: "The server was good as was the burger."


editor I'm wondering what you meant by above? 

To clarify:  I had a great burger in Pop tonight. The person who sold /served it to me couldn't have been better.

You apparently have a problem with this. Can you elaborate?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Mealy mouthed bollocks.



Nope, simple textual analysis. What he wrote, and what you reported him as writing were two different degrees of praise. No amount of farting on about "mealy mouthed bollocks" changes that.



> I have no interest the place, but it is what it is and like all of Brixton nowadays. It's young - we are old. Get over it.



The distinction isn't between "young Brixton" and "old Brixton", it's about disposable income, and whether you've got enough. 



> You should see what's happening to Vauxhall. That would make you froth.



What's happening to Vauxhall is a crying shame, but it was obviously going to happen even 25 years ago. Problem is,no-one thinks about defending places until the attacks have already started.



> No - I'm not an absolute psychopath.



You would say that, if you were an absolute psychopath.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> editor I'm wondering what you meant by above?
> 
> To clarify:  I had a great burger in Pop tonight. The person who sold /served it to me couldn't have been better.
> 
> You apparently have a problem with this. Can you elaborate?



Most people say "the service and the food was excellent". It's a near universally-understood way of saying what you originally said, but without coming across as engaging in hyperbole, or like you're impersonating Fay Maschler on E.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Speaking of murder though..rent free 12/15 years, no worries about my job, flat, drinking, mh etc....hmnnn?

I could rent my place out for the duration and also get to multiply stab someone I despise at the same time. It is tempting tbh.

What's Blair's schedule like these days?


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Speaking of murder though..rent free 12/15 years, no worries about my job, flat, drinking, mh etc....hmnnn?
> 
> I could rent my place out for the duration and also get to multiply stab someone I despise at the same time. It is tempting tbh.
> 
> What's Blair's schedule like these days?


Anyone know what this post is going on about and what it has to do with Pop?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Anyone know what this post is going on about and what it has to do with Pop?



It was a reply to VP.

Do keep up old fella.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

This has nothing to do with Pop either - but makes about as much sense as half the stuff posted on this car crash of a thread. Enjoy.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> There is no 'urban consensus' or party line, and people are absolutely free to express their opinions about the place.



Unless they say they liked a burger and the people serving it. Then they can expect a shitty comment.

totesAMAZEBALLS!


----------



## deadringer (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF he said the burger was "beautiful", not that it was "really good", and that the server was "fantastically friendly and enthusiastic", not that he was merely friendly. The former come across like public relations hyperbole, while the latter come across as fair comment.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Do you take commissions?



I'd rather he took orders than commissions - I could murder a burger myself right now!


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

editor, can you answer my questions on posts #3440 and #3443 please? 

I wonder when the *ruining this forum *excuse for not answering will be trotted out.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Your endless frothing hyperbole about the awesomeness of Pop borders on parody it's so far over the top - and I've been there enough times to know that it really isn't this utopian vision you keep on presenting. In fact, it almost sounds like you're trolling for a reaction.


Still  at this


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 23, 2015)

The Londonist gives a good review of Pop

http://londonist.com/2015/06/whats-brixtons-shipping-container-village-like

I'm definitely trying the Indian burgers next time. Is that at Kricket? They've got £7 cocktails


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Speaking of murder though..rent free 12/15 years, no worries about my job, flat, drinking, mh etc....hmnnn?



You can drink inside, although if you go the hooch route you'll probably turn your liver to mince, and your optic nerve to string.



> I could rent my place out for the duration and also get to multiply stab someone I despise at the same time. It is tempting tbh.
> 
> What's Blair's schedule like these days?



To be frank, you'd probably have to go to Kazakhstan to have a chance of shivving him.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Unless they say they liked a burger and the people serving it. Then they can expect a shitty comment.
> 
> totesAMAZEBALLS!



he didn't say he "liked" it. He GUSHED.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I'd rather he took orders than commissions - I could murder a burger myself right now!



I'm agnostic on burgers. I haven't been able to eat beef (unless it's cooked to death) for 20-odd years (lack of digestive enzymes or some such gastro-intestinal bollocks). A decent bacon sandwich, though...


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The Londonist gives a good review of Pop
> 
> http://londonist.com/2015/06/whats-brixtons-shipping-container-village-like
> 
> I'm definitely trying the Indian burgers next time. Is that at Kricket? They've got £7 cocktails


I don't think so but I don't know for sure. It's the first place on the further right when you go in.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 23, 2015)

Not kricket as that's upstairs I think. Guess I'll be going back for two Indians then


----------



## deadringer (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm agnostic on burgers. I haven't been able to eat beef (unless it's cooked to death) for 20-odd years (lack of digestive enzymes or some such gastro-intestinal bollocks). A decent bacon sandwich, though...



Add a runny yolk and ketchup to your bacon sandwich and then your really in business!


----------



## alcopop (Aug 23, 2015)

They were adding more containers this morning.

Getting quite high now!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alcopop said:


> They were adding more containers this morning.
> 
> Getting quite high now!



Thought they'd already gone as high as allowed.


----------



## deadringer (Aug 23, 2015)

DP


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Not kricket as that's upstairs I think. Guess I'll be going back for two Indians then


Kricket looks great from what I see online. We're going to Apollo Banana Leaf in Tooting tonight for Sri Lankan food. It's fantastic there - really recommend.


----------



## ash (Aug 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Kricket looks great from what I see online. We're going to Apollo Banana Leaf in Tooting tonight for Sri Lankan food. It's fantastic there - really recommend.



Kricket is great - massive bowl of bhel puri for £4 best I've had and I've sampled a lot of bhel puri (in and out of India!!). The Samphire pakora was also amazing and they serve curious brew which is a lovely bottled lager.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

ash said:


> Kricket is great - massive bowl of bhel puri for £4 best I've had and I've sampled a lot of bhel puri (in and out of India!!). The Samphire pakora was also amazing and they serve curious brew which is a lovely bottled lager.



Careful now, that's straying into frothing hyperbole territory


----------



## ash (Aug 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Careful now, that's straying into frothing hyperbole territory


Totally amazeballs


----------



## Rushy (Aug 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Just back from Pop actually. We been on the piss all day so after the Canterbury we popped in for a beer and a burger from that Indian burger place.
> 
> As seems to be the norm now in Pop, the server guy was fantastically friendly and enthusiastic about what they were doing. The burger was beautiful.


Bhangara Burgers. Lamb aren't they? Not sure anywhere else does decent lamb burgers locally. Maybe Bukowskis?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Bhangara Burgers. Lamb aren't they? Not sure anywhere else does decent lamb burgers locally. Maybe Bukowskis?


Thats it. Choice of lamb, chicken or veg. Cracking burger.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> he didn't say he "liked" it. He GUSHED.



Bollocks - He was happy about a decent burger and enjoyed the staff experience and posted after a few pints. It didn't deserve the snarky comment and I didn't read it as "GUSHING".

Anyway - let Ed speak for himself, rather than just liking inane posts.


----------



## gdubz (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> he didn't say he "liked" it. He GUSHED.


Hyperbole?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 23, 2015)

Pop is part of Open House next month


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Anyway - let Ed speak for himself, rather than just liking inane posts.



This is a public forum Violent Panda is entitled to comment on your posts.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is a public forum Violent Panda is entitled to comment on your posts.



I'm aware of this - but thanks for pointing it out.

I guess we can all comment on each others posts then?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Pop is part of Open House next month



I do go to Open House "revealing great architecture" as it says.

Why this piece of crap is in Open House is beyond me. After these recent posts thought I would have another look on my way to the Rec. 

Its poorly designed and the finish leaves something to be desired. Would not mind if it was cheap. It looks cheap but the food and drink isn’t.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm aware of this - but thanks for pointing it out.



So you will take back that comment you made to Violent Panda?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So you will take back that comment you made to Violent Panda?



What?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is a public forum...


So long as you aren't _too_ enthusiastic about the Wrong Things.


----------



## alcopop (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I do go to Open House "revealing great architecture" as it says.
> 
> Why this piece of crap is in Open House is beyond me. After these recent posts thought I would have another look on my way to the Rec.
> 
> Its poorly designed and the finish leaves something to be desired. Would not mind if it was cheap. It looks cheap but the food and drink isn’t.


It's not finished. They are still building it!


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Oh sorry - I sort of see what you are saying now and no I don't.

He's old enough to look after himself.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> What?



post #2470 to VP



> Anyway - let Ed speak for himself, rather than just liking inane posts.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its poorly designed and the finish leaves something to be desired.


I think it looks really great. But I know nothing about architecture as was pointed out to me repeatedly on the cressingham thread


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Oh sorry - I sort of see what you are saying now and no I don't.
> 
> He's old enough to look after himself.



Who the Ed or VP?


----------



## organicpanda (Aug 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Thats it. Choice of lamb, chicken or veg. Cracking burger.


bit of a piss off if you're vegetarian as they cook the vege burgers on the same  griddle as the meat ones, thereby making them no longer vegetarian in my book


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alcopop said:


> It's not finished. They are still building it!



Its pretty well finished. I’ve seen better.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Who the Ed or VP?



Both.

Ed - for giving a shitty comment and running away.

VP - can look after himself.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Both.
> 
> Ed - for giving a shitty comment and running away.
> 
> VP - can look after himself.



VP is very good at looking after himself. Better at dealing with the unpleasantness here than me.

What you were telling him was to not comment on your posts directed at the Ed. What I am saying is that he was entitled to do so.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> VP is very good at looking after himself. Better at dealing with the unpleasantness here than me.
> 
> What you were telling him was to not comment on your posts directed at the Ed. What I am saying is that he was entitled to do so.



Fine.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm aware of this - but thanks for pointing it out.
> 
> I guess we can all comment on each others posts then?



Yes thats how it works. And its what you have been doing here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

gdubz said:


> Hyperbole?



Read Mr. Retro's original post. If that isn't gushing, then you don't know what gushing means.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Bollocks - He was happy about a decent burger and enjoyed the staff experience and posted after a few pints. It didn't deserve the snarky comment and I didn't read it as "GUSHING".



That's because you're a tit. 



> Anyway - let Ed speak for himself, rather than just liking inane posts.



Takes inanity to recognise inanity.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Yes thats how it works. And its what you have been doing here.



I have indeed. I have also been called disruptive, been accused of personal attacks and abuse - all because I don't toe the party line.

Enjoy.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's because you're a tit.
> 
> 
> 
> Takes inanity to recognise inanity.



Wanker


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

. gah


----------



## alcopop (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its pretty well finished. I’ve seen better.


Half of it is finished, the rest is a massive building site.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I do go to Open House "revealing great architecture" as it says.
> 
> Why this piece of crap is in Open House is beyond me. After these recent posts thought I would have another look on my way to the Rec.
> 
> Its poorly designed and the finish leaves something to be desired. Would not mind if it was cheap. It looks cheap but the food and drink isn’t.



It's cheap and effective advertising for them, *and* it carries the possibility of expanding their customer base. I'm not really surprised they've jumped on the bandwagon.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

...drums fingers....

Ed's still liking your arselicking posts so all good


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alcopop said:


> It's not finished. They are still building it!



They're "still building it" because they keep adding stuff on.
Still, I suppose it all makes useful "facts on the ground" when Pop try to turn their "meantime" lease into a permanent one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I have indeed. I have also been called disruptive, been accused of personal attacks and abuse - all because I don't toe the party line.
> 
> Enjoy.



You *do* toe the party line. You just don't realise that you've turned from rebel to reactionary, yet. It's a common delusion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Wanker



...and?
You claiming that you don't?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You *do* toe the party line. You just don't realise that you've turned from rebel to reactionary, yet. It's a common delusion.



Whatthefuckareyouonabout?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Enjoy.



Enjoy what?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Whatthefuckareyouonabout?



Think back over your lifetime.
How many of the people you know who trot out "I don't toe the party line" when they're young, compared to the amount who get older, and actually turn into twats who delude themselves that they're "sticking it to the man" while ramming their tongue up "the man's" arse? You're a rimmer.


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I have indeed. I have also been called disruptive, been accused of personal attacks and abuse - all because I don't toe the party line.


What "party line"? Which 'party'? Who are its members?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Think back over your lifetime.
> How many of the people you know who trot out "I don't toe the party line" when they're young, compared to the amount who get older, and actually turn into twats who delude themselves that they're "sticking it to the man" while ramming their tongue up "the man's" arse? You're a rimmer.



Oh the joy....the only time I see a "mans" tongue up an arse is you with Ed.

I'm just surprised they don't have to surgically remove it everytime he goes for a shit.


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

alcopop said:


> Half of it is finished, the rest is a massive building site.


Which bit is a "massive building site"?


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Oh the joy....the only time I see a "mans" tongue up an arse is you with Ed.
> 
> I'm just surprised they don't have to surgically remove it everytime he goes for a shit.


Right. That is enough.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> What "party line"? Which 'party'? Who are its members?



It doesn't take a lot of effort to work it out.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Amazeballs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Oh the joy....the only time I see a "mans" tongue up an arse is you with Ed.
> 
> I'm just surprised they don't have to surgically remove it everytime he goes for a shit.



Come on, if you're going to try to insult me, at least be original, rather than recycling a Ben Eltonism from 25 years ago.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Come on, if you're going to try to insult me, at least be original, rather than recycling a Ben Eltonism from 25 years ago.



I'm just surprised you can still type....I thought you would have a few fingers up there as well?


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> It doesn't take a lot of effort to work it out.


In which case I'm sure you'll be able to swiftly oblige me with an answer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'm just surprised you can still type....I thought you would have a few fingers up there as well?



That'd be because unlike in your wank fantasy, I don't actually put my tongue or fingers up mens' arses.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> In which case I'm sure you'll be able to swiftly oblige me with an answer.



Nah - I'll just run away like a coward and ignore the questions. Good for the goose etc.


----------



## brixtonblade (Aug 23, 2015)

Guys, please stop it - this thread is already full of shit and this really isn't helping.


----------



## alcopop (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Which bit is a "massive building site"?



The bit with loads of builders in. The bit that's not finished. The bit they are still building.

I'll take a picture if you want?


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

alcopop said:


> The bit with loads of builders in. The bit that's not finished. The bit they are still building.
> 
> I'll take a picture if you want?


Please do because I don't see anything fitting the description of a "_massive_" building site that takes up half the size of the entire site. Thanks.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Guys, please stop it - this thread is already full of shit and this really isn't helping.



Stop being such a pussytwat. A full and frank exchange of views should be encouraged.


----------



## alcopop (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Please do because I don't see anything fitting the description of a "_massive_" building site that takes up half the size of the entire site. Thanks.


Okeydokey, will do tomorrow.


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Stop being such a pussytwat.


Stop please. Last warning.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Please do because I don't see anything fitting the description of a "_massive_" building site that takes up half the size of the entire site. Thanks.



I was there yesterday. The whole back section (where the loos were) is now a building site.


----------



## editor (Aug 23, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I was there yesterday. The whole back section (where the loos were) is now a building site.


It's not exactly 'massive' though (as in the same size as the entire open site), is it?


----------



## uk benzo (Aug 23, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Guys, please stop it - this thread is already full of shit and this really isn't helping.



Agreed. This passive aggressive shit is really fucking horrible.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 23, 2015)

Seemed big to me but no idea if it's half


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

uk benzo said:


> Agreed. This passive aggressive shit is really fucking horrible.



I don't see the "passive" part of your argument. I'll refrain from posting however until the next shitty comment - then it's a public forum.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Guys, please stop it - this thread is already full of shit and this really isn't helping.


editor why did you "like" this? You started this latest round of unpleasantness with your reply to my description of enjoying myself there last night.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> editor, can you answer my questions on posts #3440 and #3443 please?
> 
> I wonder when the *ruining this forum *excuse for not answering will be trotted out.


editor?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> VP is very good at looking after himself. Better at dealing with the unpleasantness here than me.


Ironic as I've put VP on ignore a long while back as he is the most unpleasant poster here. I put him on ignore when he insinuated a posters mother was a prostitute. Lovely person. 

Who do you think has been the most unpleasant person on this thread gramsci?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 23, 2015)

yes mr retro, me too.

when he's not lecturing people about how he thinks the world works, he's insulting them. easier just to ignore.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Stop please. Last warning.



Stop it Rob!

He's NOT a middleaged camera toting, micro blogging hipster, holier than thou, newcomer to London mmmnkay.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Ironic as I've put VP on ignore a long while back as he is the most unpleasant poster here. I put him on ignore when he insinuated a posters mother was a prostitute. Lovely person.
> 
> Who do you think has been the most unpleasant person on this thread gramsci?



I do not have one.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 23, 2015)

Oh dear. I went to edit a post and ended up with a new one.

the shame.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I do not have one.



You should have said "ViolentPanda". I've got broad shoulders.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> Stop it Rob!
> 
> He's NOT a middleaged camera toting, micro blogging hipster, holier than thou, newcomer to London mmmnkay.


Who are you referring to here please, and what relevance does it have to Pop Brixton?


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Who are you referring to here please, and what relevance does it have to Pop Brixton?



I'd have thought it was obvious. Stop arsing around like little bo peep.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

alfajobrob said:


> I'd have thought it was obvious. Stop arsing around like little bo peep.


I have no idea who this 'newcomer to London' is or why you're bringing it up in this thread. Kindly answer the question directly.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I have no idea who this 'newcomer to London' is or why you're bringing it up in this thread. Kindly answer the question directly.



lolololololol - really you have no idea????


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> editor, can you answer my questions on posts #3440 and #3443 please?


editor?


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> editor?


I already did in post #3434. But if anyone posts up a "review" that is so over the top that it smells like parody, then they can't whine and bleat if someone picks them up on it - and they certainly shouldn't expect to receive bizarre and aggressive abuse about being "fucking filleted" in response.

I trust that answers your pointless (and obsessively asked) question in full. I certainly have no interest in engaging with it further.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I already did in post #3434. But if anyone posts up a "review" that is so over the top that it smells like parody, then they can't whine and bleat if someone picks them up on it - and they certainly shouldn't expect to receive bizarre and aggressive abuse about being "fucking filleted" in response.
> 
> I trust that answers your pointless (and obsessively asked) question in full. I certainly have no interest in engaging with it further.


Well it doesn't but you know that. And it's you usual form so unsurprising.  You are exaggerating my opinion was over the top. Which you also well know. 

So please leave the weird responses to a reasonable post off the forum in future. You started up an unpleasant spat all over again. It's the kind of thing *that's ruining this forum. *


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

Here's some details of what was paid out for the Adidas 'takeover' of Pop. 



> Base Brixton was a partnership between adidas, Pop Brixton and Lambeth Council.
> 
> A contribution of £2000 was paid to the to cover the partial closure of the car park and £13,000 has been donated to fund Reprezent Radio’s studio move to Pop Brixton. http://www.popbrixton.org/#!Base-Brixton-at-Pop/ctyd/55db2d520cf2c4072860578e


A reminder of what that "not logo city" layout looked like (logos and branding circled):


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

And in the Guardian: 


> Innovation in funding 2015-16: The New Zealand Cellar
> http://www.theguardian.com/small-bu.../innovation-in-funding-the-new-zealand-cellar


"‘We worked tirelessly for the five days it took us to reach our £35k target," says Melanie Brown, founder of The New Zealand Cellar. 

A whole five days, you say?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 24, 2015)

> Having run my online store from my spare bedroom for eight months (with my four-year-old in tow), it was time for a new challenge.



Why do you feel the need to continually belittle this woman?


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Why do you feel the need to continually belittle this woman?


I thought I told you I'm not interested in engaging with your tedious, personal-beef-laden nitpick-a-thons?

But here's what I call perspective: she raised £35k in just five days.
Cressingham Gardens have so far only managed £5.6k in five fucking months.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 24, 2015)

It looks like the amount of money donated to various causes by adidas was about £30k, then, in exchange for about a week's presence on the site.

Whether that's a good deal, I don't know. Not sure what to compare it with.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 24, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Not sure what to compare it with.



Looks like spurious comparisons are the way to go.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It looks like the amount of money donated to various causes by adidas was about £30k, then, in exchange for about a week's presence on the site.
> 
> Whether that's a good deal, I don't know. Not sure what to compare it with.


How do you arrive at the 30k figure? 
And the money wasn't exactly all donations - 2k was to compensate for them plonking their megatent on the car park for some time.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Looks like spurious comparisons are the way to go.


I was offering a _perspective_ not a like-for-like comparison.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 24, 2015)

editor said:


> How do you arrive at the 30k figure?
> And the money wasn't exactly all donations - 2k was to compensate for them plonking their megatent on the car park for some time.


13k Reprezent Radio
5k "nominate the difference" awards
10k Lambeth Schools football equipment
=£28k

You're right, I shouldn't include the £2k for the car park.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

teuchter said:


> 13k Reprezent Radio
> 5k "nominate the difference" awards
> 10k Lambeth Schools football equipment
> =£28k


I'm not really sure if I'd call a development grant a 'donation' as such. One thing: I can't see where £5k is mentioned in that press release. 

And the cynic in me wonders if that £10k for school equipment comes with the caveat that it's only for gear from Adidas and their partners. 

Personally I hate the idea of corporate sponsorship in schools, but that's clearly a far wider issue and not particularly relevant to this venture


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 24, 2015)

This hating on businesses (about which we know fuck all) is tedious


----------



## leanderman (Aug 24, 2015)

With these figures, I can't see what all the fuss was about.

I guess 'whatever it is, we're against it'.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 24, 2015)

I wish addidas would.give one of our local schools ten k.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I guess 'whatever it is, we're against it'.


If you just want to simplify and ridicule all the arguments about broken promises that have been presented here, then yes, that's the way to do it.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> I wish addidas would.give one of our local schools ten k.


I wish schools sports facilities would be properly funded so they could remain free from corporate branding and PR exercises, but I guess we can't always get what we want, eh?


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 24, 2015)

True, but sadly they are not.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm not really sure if I'd call a development grant a 'donation' as such. One thing: I can't see where £5k is mentioned in that press release.
> 
> And the cynic in me wonders if that £10k for school equipment comes with the caveat that it's only for gear from Adidas and their partners.
> 
> Personally I hate the idea of corporate sponsorship in schools, but that's clearly a far wider issue and not particularly relevant to this venture



The £5k is mentioned in a previous press release.

I wouldn't be surprised if the £10k school equipment is Adidas branded. If so I am not especially keen on that myself. Although I imagine sports equipment is inevitably branded whatever.

I assume the £10k is divided between all Lambeth schools. How many schools are there in Lambeth?

It's not a huge sum of money really.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 24, 2015)

leanderman said:


> With these figures, I can't see what all the fuss was about.
> 
> I guess 'whatever it is, we're against it'.



Well, it comes back to the question of whether it's a good deal, and for who.

What's the going rate for renting out a portion of land in a Z2 town centre site with ready-to-go PR presence, to a big brand for a promotional event?


----------



## Winot (Aug 24, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Well, it comes back to the question of whether it's a good deal, and for who.
> 
> What's the going rate for renting out a portion of land in a Z2 town centre site with ready-to-go PR presence, to a big brand for a promotional event?



There you go again, with your insistence on the importance of facts


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I assume the £10k is divided between all Lambeth schools. How many schools are there in Lambeth?
> 
> It's not a huge sum of money really.


I agree. It's bugger all to a company of their size and would barely make a dent in their PR budget. I imagine Adidas might feel pretty pleased with themselves for getting such a prime location and such good PR for such a relatively small sum.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 24, 2015)

I guess we don't know what they paid to Pop Brixton, which will have been part of their costs.

Now someone can say that whatever it was, it's gone straight to the pockets of their zillionare developer chums, etc etc.

Or maybe it's gone towards subsidising the office units and other "community" benefits.

We'll never know unless Pop Brixton's accounts are open...are they? This is where things get a bit murky in these private/public hybrid operations.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Why do you feel the need to continually belittle this woman?



Must be because he's anti-foreigner and she's just another Antipodean coming over here and shitting up our fine cities, eh?
Or it could be that her "crowdfunded" business -an approach that garnered her a fair bit of free publicity - smelled a bit of rotting herring when compared to most crowdfunding appeals of a similar nature. One doesn't usually expect NZ wine producers and wholesalers to haunt crowdfunding websites.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> If you just want to simplify and ridicule all the arguments about broken promises that have been presented here, then yes, that's the way to do it.



I am talking about the argument against Adidas, which now looks unconvincing. 

But yes, as we have seen, most of the other arguments against Pop also seem to have failed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought I told you I'm not interested in engaging with your tedious, personal-beef-laden nitpick-a-thons?
> 
> But here's what I call perspective: she raised £35k in just five days.
> Cressingham Gardens have so far only managed £5.6k in five fucking months.



To be fair though, Save Cressingham Gardens isn't an edgy and vibrant boutique wine seller offering a hip environment for New Zealand wines to be promoted/sold from. We're very unhip and un-vibrant, what with actually being about a *real* community and about community values that aren't amenable to commercialisation/marketisation.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I am talking about the argument against Adidas, which now looks unconvincing.


In what way does it look "unconvincing"?  We were promised a horticultural-themed green oasis with a specific pledge that it would not end up as "logo city" and got a week long Adidas-branded 'takeover' in exchange. 


leanderman said:


> But yes, as we have seen, most of the other arguments against Pop also seem to have failed.


Have they really? When was that decided then? You may not be able to find fault with the venture, but there's more than few who can.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> I wish addidas would.give one of our local schools ten k.



The last time a sports company did something similar at scale (in the US), it had enough strings that the schools that were helped had to put advertising for the company everywhere, including the shitters.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I guess we don't know what they paid to Pop Brixton, which will have been part of their costs.
> 
> Now someone can say that whatever it was, it's gone straight to the pockets of their zillionare developer chums, etc etc.
> 
> ...


I do believe Tricky Skills  has been asking these kind of questions.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Must be because he's anti-foreigner and she's just another Antipodean coming over here and shitting up our fine cities, eh?
> Or it could be that her "crowdfunded" business -an approach that garnered her a fair bit of free publicity - smelled a bit of rotting herring when compared to most crowdfunding appeals of a similar nature. One doesn't usually expect NZ wine producers and wholesalers to haunt crowdfunding websites.


I hadn't previously realised that she is being accused of faking the crowdfunding appeal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I hadn't previously realised that she is being accused of faking the crowdfunding appeal.



Not "faking". She used a crowdfund website, so what she *may* have done wouldn't be faking, it would be "gaming"- using the system.  
IIRC one of the web "news" outlets (Buzzfeed maybe? One of the "clickbait farms, anyway) mentioned that her funders were few, and that many coincidentally shared the names of people working in or for the NZ wine industry, hence her reaching the target amount so quickly where the average "investment" is between $50-150 US. I think the context of the article was about stand-out crowdfunding ventures (and there are some that are rapidly subscribed), because most ventures are slow-burners by comparison to £35,000 in less than a week.


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 25, 2015)

:


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I do believe Tricky Skills  has been asking these kind of questions.



Yep.


----------



## deadringer (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought I told you I'm not interested in engaging with your tedious, personal-beef-laden nitpick-a-thons?
> 
> But here's what I call perspective: she raised £35k in just five days.
> Cressingham Gardens have so far only managed £5.6k in five fucking months.



Rather than sniping and sneering at this woman who had had the audacity to use the tools available to expand a business selling wine from her bedroom into a container in a container park, is the crowd funding thing an option you could use to help raise funds for Cressingham Gardens? With the help of social media it could bea great success, I note on the thread in general that the lady fined by the courts for stealing Mars Bars had over 8k raised for her in a few days.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> And the cynic in me wonders if that £10k for school equipment comes with the caveat that it's only for gear from Adidas and their partners.
> 
> Personally I hate the idea of corporate sponsorship in schools, but that's clearly a far wider issue and not particularly relevant to this venture



Unfortunately I now get the impression that Adidas are using the Pop event as a stepping stone to get longer term corporate sponsorship (ie advertising ) into local schools and community groups. 

I know that some are concerned about this. Those who have been trying to get local youth away from life of gangs and crime. Whilst Adidas dangle possibility of sponsorship they are also part of the problem. A consumerist society that is beyond the reach of a lot of youth who then see gang crime as way to get designer goods that confer status.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> is the crowd funding thing an option you could use to help raise funds for Cressingham Gardens?


http://www.gofundme.com/savecressingham

For your homework: Why did this particular person find it so easy to raise £35k in 5 days, while the Cressingham fundraising has managed £5,600 in 5 *months?*


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Rather than sniping and sneering at this woman who had had the audacity to use the tools available to expand a business selling wine from her bedroom into a container in a container park...


At no point have I ever "sneered" at "this woman". Please don't make stuff up.


deadringer said:


> ...is the crowd funding thing an option you could use to help raise funds for Cressingham Gardens?


You seem to be entirely missing the point here. They have tried crowdfunding - hence my comment about them only raising £5.6k in five months. And I - along with others - have worked very hard to to promote and help that campaign, but it's frustrating and depressing to see it struggling for so long.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

NZ wine growers have crowdfunded someone selling their products in London, at an outlay of only a few hundred pounds each. 

I don't see much of a link to the Cressingham situation.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> NZ wine growers have crowdfunded someone selling their products in London, at an outlay of only a few hundred pounds each.
> 
> I don't see much of a link to the Cressingham situation.


There isn't. I only added it as a _perspective_ - i.e. the ease in which some people can raise a shitload of cash almost overnight while those less-connected and further down the social scale - and in desperate need - struggle to raise a fraction of the amount for something that actually matters. The connection being it's happening in the same area. I think it's a pertinent observation.

Have you a breakdown of the NZ crowdfunding amounts, btw?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Yep.


I'm surprised that nobody from Pop has tried to get in touch with you to talk through some of the criticisms raised on Buzz and on here. Or have they?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Have you a breakdown of the NZ crowdfunding amounts, btw?



I was told by the shop - and by another wine merchant - that money had come from the industry.

But I know an individual local who backed them too. There may be more.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I'm surprised that nobody from Pop has tried to get in touch with you to talk through some of the criticisms raised on Buzz and on here. Or have they?


Nope. No contact at all. All I ever get is glossy press releases, invariably spawned from expensive PR agencies all banging on about the new independent outlet's new found love of vibrant/happening Brixton.

Add in the frothy stuff I constantly get from other PR-driven nu-businesses and you might understand why I get a bit tetchy at times. It sometimes feels like a land grab for the disposable income generation to me, and something that is designed by its very nature to exclude some of the community around me.

But anyway, that's how I feel and I'll readily admit that my politics, economic situation and location is going to inform my response. But then my politics are pretty much informed by the latter too.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I was told by the shop - and by another wine merchant - that money had come from the industry.
> 
> But I know an individual local who backed them too. There may be more.


Rushy?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Nope. No contact at all.


Sorry, the question was meant to be directed at Tricky.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I was told by the shop - and by another wine merchant - that money had come from the industry.


If it was predominantly an industry-funded venture, then I'd suggest that the bulk of the money wasn't raised by people putting in a  "only a few hundred pounds each." The average amount contributed to crowdfunding ventures is far lower by the way (around £40 each) and the length of time needed to raise the amount is much, much longer.

I've never heard of any local putting in cash.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

To be fair, the Cressingham figure is a little misleading. Twenty odd thousand was raised from the public. It's just that the cost of raising that money was extremely high.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> To be fair, the Cressingham figure is a little misleading. Twenty odd thousand was raised from the public. It's just that the cost of raising that money was extremely high.


In what sense  is the figure 'misleading'? That's the money they have raised by crowdfunding so far.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> In what sense  is the figure 'misleading'? That's the money they have raised by crowdfunding so far.


In the way that I explained.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

are you a major shareholder or just a chummy backer?


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> In the way that I explained.


You need to explain it better and I do hope you're not referring to my gig because that would be quite the most desperate point to make.

That was my own private attempt to raise money for Cressingham. It was not a crowdfunding appeal.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> If it was predominantly an industry-funded venture, then I'd suggest that the bulk of the money wasn't raised by people putting in a  "only a few hundred pounds each."



I didn't suggest otherwise.

I said the money was industry money. And from one individual, who may well have given £40.


----------



## Manter (Aug 25, 2015)

12 people gave £10, 
32 gave £25
37 gave £60
Etc

Max people have was £1000, 11 people gave that. 

All listed on their kickstarter page.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

Manter said:


> 12 people gave £10,
> 32 gave £25
> 37 gave £60
> Etc
> ...



So some small backers. 

And some very big ones. 

The average kickstarter donation of £40 may not be a useful figure unless you know what kind of statistical average it represents.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I'm surprised that nobody from Pop has tried to get in touch with you to talk through some of the criticisms raised on Buzz and on here. Or have they?



Apart from an invite just after the 'change in the style of management', I'm afraid requests for information from Pop and KTA have not been returned.

Hey hoe.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The average kickstarter donation of £40 may not be a useful figure unless you know what kind of statistical average it represents.


However you want to spin - and you certainly seem keen to do so - the rate in which they reached their target in just five days was way above the norm.



> The most popular pledge amount on Kickstarter is $25, and the site-wide average for all pledges (big and small) is about $70





> 67% of successful campaigns lasted between 30 and 40 days. Campaigns that lasted less than a month represent only 3% of the sample
> http://www.rudebaguette.com/2014/09/24/10-kickstarter-figures-you-need-to-know/


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> However you want to spin - and you certainly seem keen to do so - the rate in which they reached their target in just five days was way above the norm.


But what is your point?
It's clearly not "Wow! Didn't she do well."
So what is it?


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> But what is your point?
> It's clearly not "Wow! Didn't she do well."
> So what is it?


I was under the impression that Pop Brixton wasn't set up set up to provide an affordable home for well-connected New Zealand wine entrepreneurs, but if it garners a "Wow!" from you, then I'm happy for your joy.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> But what is your point?
> It's clearly not "Wow! Didn't she do well."
> So what is it?


it's funny how editor MUST answer and reply and justify everything when you don't even bother to respond to stuff put to you
double standards much?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> But what is your point?
> It's clearly not "Wow! Didn't she do well."
> So what is it?


why should people laud your mates/business partners for managing to raise loads of cash quickly to sell some overpriced wine???


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I was under the impression that Pop Brixton wasn't set up set up to provide an affordable home for well-connected New Zealand wine entrepreneurs, but if it garners a "Wow!" from you, then I'm happy for your joy.



Ah. So this really has been about her and her business all along. Again.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> However you want to spin - and you certainly seem keen to do so - the rate in which they reached their target in just five days was way above the norm.



Why are you accusing me of 'certainly being keen to spin'?

All I have done is point out that she raised the money quickly because she had wine industry backing.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Ah. So this really has been about her and her business all along. Again.


If you're just going to try to deceitfully twist and misrepresent my words  then it's really pointless engaging further. 

I am talking about what Pop Brixton was supposed to be. That was why my sentence started, "I was under the impression that Pop Brixton ...".


----------



## deadringer (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I was under the impression that Pop Brixton wasn't set up set up to provide an affordable home for well-connected New Zealand wine entrepreneurs, but if it garners a "Wow!" from you, then I'm happy for your joy.



Well connected NZ wine entrepreneurs - she has been in London for 10ish years and  has moved from selling wine from her bedroom with a young kid running about to selling wine from an old shipping container. I doubt she'll be on the Dragons Den panel anytime soon.

Personally I'd rather buy wine from a local independent business who has a genuine interest in their product rather than from a massive chain or supermarket. But that's just me. hey ho


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> If you're just going to try to deceitfully twist and misrepresent my words  then it's really pointless engaging further.
> 
> I am talking about what Pop Brixton was supposed to be. That was why my sentence started, "I was under the impression that Pop Brixton ...".



What you wrongly thought Pop Brixton was supposed to be.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Well connected NZ wine entrepreneurs - she has been in London for 10ish years and  has moved from selling wine from her bedroom with a young kid running about to selling wine from an old shipping container.


Fair play to her. I spoke to her a few times, she's really nice.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

look at the lengths you lot are going to to defend a well connected and now wealthy wine seller!!


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair play to her. I spoke to her a few times, she's really nice.



Her wine's a bit pricey for me but I have had a glass in passing and she was friendly and knowledgable. 

It's simply her good fortune that she has a business that is likely to attract industry backers in the way she has done.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

ddraig said:


> look at the lengths you lot are going to to defend a well connected and now wealthy wine seller!!



How do you know she is well-connected and wealthy?

ETA: Were she either she probably would not have needed crowd funding


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 25, 2015)

I see were talking about the wine lady again. If a story is worth telling, it's worth telling twice... or even every month... probably twice a month.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I am talking about what Pop Brixton was supposed to be. That was why my sentence started, "I was under the impression that Pop Brixton ...".


To be accurate, you were telling us what you had the impression Pop _shouldn't_ be. And you singled out the NZ lady's business an as an example of what it shouldn't be. Again.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> It's simply her good fortune that she has a business that is likely to attract industry backers in the way she has done.


Good fortune and hard work by the sounds of it. I really admire people like that.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

did she "get on her bike"? fans of Tebbit too are we?


----------



## T & P (Aug 25, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair play to her. I spoke to her a few times, she's really nice.


We'll have none of that hyperbolic praise in here, thanks.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> To be accurate, you were telling us what you had the impression Pop _shouldn't_ be. And you singled out the NZ lady's business an as an example of what it shouldn't be. Again.


And that'll be because we _happened to be talking about that specific business_, for fuck's sake.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 25, 2015)

"Imagine a green oasis..."


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Good fortune and hard work by the sounds of it. I really admire people like that.


Is that a Thatcher quote?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 25, 2015)

^ This is what the original proposal said about what kinds of businesses would take up space in the scheme.

Can anyone explain, specifically, why there's any conflict between this and the NZ wine lady's presence?


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Personally I'd rather buy wine from a local independent business who has a genuine interest in their product rather than from a massive chain or supermarket. But that's just me. hey ho


Most people probably think the same, but it gets complicated when the business sets up shop in what was supposed to be a horticulturally themed green oasis dreamt up by the council and then gets an Adidas takeover thrown in the mix.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

So who wants a booty like this? Pop Brixton wants to know.







#70snotdead


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> And that'll be because we _happened to be talking about that specific business_, for fuck's sake.


Erm. You appear to have forgotten that we're talking about her business because you mocked an article in which she says it took five days to reach her Kickstarter target.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Erm. You appear to have forgotten that we're talking about her business because you mocked an article in which she says it took five days to reach her Kickstarter target.


And there you go again. I can't be fucked with your deceitful twisting. Go obsess over someone else. In fact, I'm putting you on forced ignore for a month.

The boards were all the better when you flounced off with your chums and I've had enough of seeing you trash threads with your disrupting hounding.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> So who wants a booty like this? Pop Brixton wants to know. #70snotdead



She's just returned from working at Boom Town and is a member of Camden Resists (https://twitter.com/camdenresists) according to a two minute google. Retro themed all the rage apparently, although my arse would look slightly different in that outfit.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> She's just returned from working at Boom Town and is a member of Camden Resists (https://twitter.com/camdenresists) according to a two minute google. Retro themed all the rage apparently.


What's Boomtown got to do with it? 

What do you think of the tweet from Pop Brixton, by the way?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> And there you go again. I can't be fucked with your deceitful twisting. Go obsess over someone else. In fact, I'm putting you on forced ignore for a month.
> 
> The boards were all the better when you flounced off with your chums and I've had enough of seeing you trash threads with your disrupting hounding.



For clarity, is that mutual ignore?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Is that a Thatcher quote?


No, why?


----------



## Winot (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Most people probably think the same, but it gets complicated when the business sets up shop in what was supposed to be a horticulturally themed green oasis dreamt up by the council and then gets an Adidas takeover thrown in the mix.



What's that got to do with the NZ wine business?  It's not in her control, is it?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

Nor was it an accurate description of the concept.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> What's that got to do with the NZ wine business?  It's not in her control, is it?


I'm trying to talk about how I feel that the original promise of Pop Brixton has not been fulfilled, and despite the usual gang rounding on me here, I am certainly not alone in that feeling. Maybe you don't hear it in your world, but I hear it a fair bit when I'm out and about.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Nor was it an accurate description of the concept.


It wasn't described as a 'green oasis'? It didn't have a horticultural theme?

Perhaps you missed the mock-up that had a fucking massive gardening fork and spade sticking up in the air above the entrance?

Call me crazy, but things like that - and the name of 'Grow Brixton' - might just give some people the idea that it was all about green stuff.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> No, why?


It sounded just like one.


----------



## Winot (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm trying to talk about how I feel that the original promise of Pop Brixton has not been fulfilled, and despite the usual gang rounding on me here, I am certainly not alone in that feeling. Maybe you don't hear it in your world, but I hear it a fair bit when I'm out and about.



Yes, I understand that, I'm just wondering why you are singling out the wine place whereas your complaint is relating to aspects of Pop that have nothing to do with her.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Yes, I understand that, I'm just wondering why you are singling out the wine place whereas your complaint is relating to aspects of Pop that have nothing to do with her.


I posted up a news piece relating to the NZ business and then people discussed it, just like the Adidas takeover was discussed when it was topical. 

But now it's just become another vehicle for people like you to try and score personal points, so I'll leave it, thanks.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> It sounded just like one.


How is it relevant though?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> It wasn't described as a 'green oasis'? It didn't have a horticultural theme?
> 
> Perhaps you missed the mock-up that had a fucking massive gardening fork and spade sticking up in the air above the entrance?
> 
> Call me crazy, but things like that - and the name of 'Grow Brixton' - might just give some people the idea that it was all about green stuff.










How is the inclusion of the wine shop contrary to the above?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 75816
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Perhaps 10 yrs is not enough to be considered a local?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

teuchter said:


> How is the inclusion of the wine shop contrary to the above?


How does it fit with this verdant vision? 







It's clear you either really can't see it - or perhaps you're just being deliberately obtuse - but it seems clear to me that the way that Grow Brixton was sold to Brixton was clearly flawed. 

And if you think that an Adidas takeover looked likely to happen from that illustration, then that's fine, but take it from me - plenty of people didn't. And that's it really.

Got an opinion of that booty photo tweeted out by Pop by the way? Does that also fit for you?


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> How is it relevant though?


You made a post about how you really admire people who work hard and I commented on it. That's generally how boards work.  Quite why you're so keen to keep this particular dull conversation going is anyone's guess, mind.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Is that a Thatcher quote?


this is where the left gets it wrong so often, imo. i.e. anyone who praises someone else and says "well done mate, you've done really well for yourself and turned nothing into something" is just sniffed at as being thatcherite.

i know plenty of working class left wing people who love to see people's hard work turned into good fortune, who love to see kids graft and strive and do well and wouldn't dream of dismissing the "idea" of that as associated with some sociopathic nutter from the 80s.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 25, 2015)

This thread is comedy gold!


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> this is where the left gets it wrong so often, imo. i.e. anyone who praises someone else and says "well done mate, you've done really well for yourself and turned nothing into something" is just sniffed at as being thatcherite.
> 
> i know plenty of working class left wing people who love to see people's hard work turned into good fortune, who love to see kids graft and strive and do well and wouldn't dream of dismissing the "idea" of that as associated with some nutter from the 80s.


was/is she one of your heroes?
and they didn't say it as you've said it did they now


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> You made a post about how you really admire people who work hard and I commented on it. That's generally how boards work.  Quite why you're so keen to keep this particular dull conversation going is anyone's guess, mind.


so you don't admire hard work then? or is her hard work a different kind of hard work to others? hard work is hard work, no?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> so you don't admire hard work then? or is her hard work a different kind of hard work to others? hard work is hard work, no?


how much hard work is it to get backing from the industry and a few monied kiwi's over there and here? honestly


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

ddraig said:


> how much hard work is it to get backing from the industry and a few monied kiwi's over there and here? honestly


more than i can be arsed with. so thumbs up to her.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> more than i can be arsed with. so thumbs up to her.


so should we call you a workshy scrounger layabout good for nothing and say you should be like this hard working woman?


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> so you don't admire hard work then? or is her hard work a different kind of hard work to others? hard work is hard work, no?





superfly101 said:


> This thread is comedy gold!


What kind of gold? Do you admire comedy gold? Is this comedy gold different to other type of comedy gold?

Etc etc etc.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

ddraig said:


> so should we call you a workshy scrounger layabout good for nothing and say you should be like this hard working woman?


 no. 
you are bending my mind.


----------



## Dan U (Aug 25, 2015)

ddraig said:


> how much hard work is it to get backing from the industry and a few monied kiwi's over there and here? honestly


I'd say running any business from your home while caring for a small child would be a reasonable amount of work. 

Which is apparently what she did before she did the objectionable thing which has led to this barking obsessing over her on here. 

Fair play to her. She has given something a crack.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> What kind of gold? Do you admire comedy gold? Is this comedy gold different to other type of comedy gold?
> 
> Etc etc etc.








Thinks about posting decides it's as pointless as posting facts about how NZ wine girls' business operates!


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> You made a post about how you really admire people who work hard and I commented on it. That's generally how boards work.  Quite why you're so keen to keep this particular dull conversation going is anyone's guess, mind.


But why comment on it in terms of insinuating I was a Thatcherite? 

I'm asking you to clarify as that's also how boards generally work.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> But why comment on it in terms of insinuating I was a Thatcherite?
> 
> I'm asking you to clarify as that's also how boards generally work.


Jesus. You're *still* going on about this?


----------



## han (Aug 25, 2015)

. 
Pah.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Update: Pop Brixton is apparently now a 'facility' where "failure to consent or submit to searches or inspection will result in a denial or revocation of the authorization to enter."

This is a large sign by the entrance:



PS The text appears to come from US law enforcement regulations.


----------



## elmpp (Aug 25, 2015)

Total lack of humility by usual suspect


----------



## Dan U (Aug 25, 2015)

Is that a license thing like so many places these days?


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Update: Pop Brixton is apparently now a 'facility' where "failure to consent or submit to searches or inspection will result in a denial or revocation of the authorization to enter."
> 
> This is a large sign by the entrance:
> 
> ...



No money wasted on the signage is there...


----------



## T & P (Aug 25, 2015)

And they haven't even bothered changing it to British spelling! The bastards!


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2015)

That has to be a joke!


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

If that was on an u75 approved venue, no one would give a toss.


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## han (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> If that was on an u75 approved venue, no one would give a toss.


I don't think that's true. 
The Dogstar, for example, insists on ID, which many people are unhappy about, but it would never put a sign up like that. It's just totally unwelcoming. It's like - who the hell do they think they are?!


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

anyway bored with this, pop is good pop is shit, I don't think we are going to change each others minds much


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

han said:


> I don't think that's true.
> The Dogstar, for example, insists on ID, which many people are unhappy about, but it would never put a sign up like that. It's just totally unwelcoming. It's like - who the hell do they think they are?!


Not bothered by it tbh. Might even stop a few with knives or at least deter them. There's still a lot of people on Lambeth who carry knives.


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## han (Aug 25, 2015)

A lot? They're not likely to frequent Pop, tbf.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

...or guns. It might make the place feel safer.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Even less likely id think with that sign up.


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## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> If that was on an u75 approved venue, no one would give a toss.


This "u75 approved" stuff is getting really tedious now.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 25, 2015)

The sign is ridiculous. They need to sort it out.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

True though! Its just a normal thing in these paranoid times.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> True though! Its just a normal thing in these paranoid times.


What's true?


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> True though! Its just a normal thing in these paranoid times.


No, it's really _not _a normal thing.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

To ed. Bouncers - stewards can search now. They do at football, clubs, etc. The sign is just stating that fact. Could be more polite, true b


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## deadringer (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> No, it's really _not _a normal thing.



Sadly it is, as is the requirement of certain venues to insist on scanning ID's on entry. It sucks because you either have the option of not showing ID and not getting into the venue which you have chosen to attend, possibly with friends already inside, or giving in and scanning your ID just to get in. Expect more and more of this particular shit sandwich.


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## sleaterkinney (Aug 25, 2015)

It's just a standard sign saying you've given consent for a search - no different than being asked before going into a pub.


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## deadringer (Aug 25, 2015)

Exactly. These things are standard T&C's for getting into any slightly interesting venue be it drinking, sports, etc. Best off not getting overly excited by them and swiftly ignored, IMO


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## han (Aug 25, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's just a standard sign saying you've given consent for a search - no different than being asked before going into a pub.


It's a bit rude and unwelcoming though isn't it? I definitely wouldn't bother going to a place with a sign like that.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Sadly it is, as is the requirement of certain venues to insist on scanning ID's on entry. It sucks because you either have the option of not showing ID and not getting into the venue which you have chosen to attend, possibly with friends already inside, or giving in and scanning your ID just to get in. Expect more and more of this particular shit sandwich.


The wording on that sign is not a normal thing, and those kind of warnings aren't exactly common for a self styled 'green oasis' supposedly extolling local community connections either.


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## deadringer (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> The wording on that sign is not a normal thing, and those kind of warnings aren't exactly common for a self styled 'green oasis' supposedly extolling local community connections either.



This from the upcoming SW4 festival this weekend:

_Due to the constant terrorist threat existing in London as well as an increase in pick pocketing, event security will be thoroughly checking all bags belonging to ticket and pass holders entering the event site.


This is however a time consuming job, therefore can ticket holders aim to arrive to the event site earlier than in normal circumstances as well as cooperate fully with all requests from the event security staff. 

The promoter reserves the right to check any bag or person that it may deem suspicious. They will also be profile searching individuals on entry in our battle against pick pockets. _

_Please accept the promoters’ apologies should you experience longer than usual queues. Safety checks will be undertaken for the good and safety of all present at the event.
_
This from Manchester United's website:

_6 All persons seeking entrance to the Ground acknowledge the Club's right to search any 
person entering the Ground and to refuse entry to or eject from the Ground any person 
refusing to submit to such a search.

_
I don't like it any more than you do, but sadly this kind of condition is not uncommon. I wouldn't let it bother you, life is too short.


----------



## han (Aug 25, 2015)

I think the wording in your first example is pleasantly polite. 

The second one - well, what'd you expect from Man U?


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## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> this is where the left gets it wrong so often, imo. i.e. anyone who praises someone else and says "well done mate, you've done really well for yourself and turned nothing into something" is just sniffed at as being thatcherite.
> 
> i know plenty of working class left wing people who love to see people's hard work turned into good fortune, who love to see kids graft and strive and do well and wouldn't dream of dismissing the "idea" of that as associated with some sociopathic nutter from the 80s.





This kind of Blairite supporting those of whose are "aspirational" politics is no longer flavour of the month. To my surprise.

I know plenty of working class people who think otherwise- from this country and other European countries.

A lot of people graft- keeping streets clean, cleaning offices etc. Are you saying that they should not "do well"? Are they doing the wrong kind of "graft"? Not being aspirational enough?

So how do explain the surprise support for that old figure from the left you deride Jeremy Corbyn?

He is getting a lot of support from young people. There is a generation of younger people here who have grown up with this economic crisis.( And this includes young people from other countries I have met- Spain for example I have met) They realise that be willing to graft does not mean one will be rewarded. They have learnt the hard way that this is not how capitalism works.

The idea that if as an individual if one grafts and works one will be rewarded is a fallacy.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> This from the upcoming SW4 festival this weekend:
> 
> _Due to the constant terrorist threat existing in London as well as an increase in pick pocketing, event security will be thoroughly checking all bags belonging to ticket and pass holders entering the event site.
> 
> ...


You're comparing the green oasis of Pop Brixton with a sold-out major music festival (capacity 20,000 people) and one of the biggest football grounds in Europe (capacity 75,731)?

Err, OK.


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## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

han said:


> I think the wording in your first example is pleasantly polite.


Me too. It has a completely different tone to the Pop one.


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## T & P (Aug 25, 2015)

han said:


> It's a bit rude and unwelcoming though isn't it? I definitely wouldn't bother going to a place with a sign like that.


I frankly couldn't care less, anymore than I'd care about car racing events having warnings about risks and liability, and countless other in-your-face warnings and rules one becomes across many industries.

It's a sign of the times, if you'll pardon the pun, and something those in charge of the place would like to be rid of as much as the punters if they could. If I had ever boycotted a place about seemly over the top warnings about, say, drug use at such events as nightclubs and festivals, I would have missed out on some truly great times. I'd much rather reserve judgement until I have seen how the staff actually behaves and the general vibe of the place.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This kind of Blairite supporting those of whose are "aspirational" politics is no longer flavour of the month. To my surprise.
> 
> I know plenty of working class people who think otherwise- from this country and other European countries.
> 
> ...


Talk about totally misrepresent was I was saying. Where have I said they are not going well? I admire a lot of forms of hard work, like I said. Apparently that makes me thatcherite. Lol.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> You're comparing the green oasis of Pop Brixton with a sold-out major music festival (capacity 20,000 people) and one of the biggest football grounds in Europe (capacity 75,731)?
> 
> Err, OK.


Surely you should compare it to other places in Brixton that serve booze?. Are the bouncers searching people outside the dogstar a welcoming sight?.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

The woman has done well. She's done more than I could do. 

You don't think people will want to work and better themselves after the revolution?  Hows that going to work then?


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

Comparing many of the responses here to Brixtonites posting on Facebook is quite an educational experience.

Here, several posters seem to be falling over themselves to dismiss and downplay any concerns about the appropriateness of the sign, while those posting on Facebook are unanimously condemning it.

Best comment "Christ, that's like something from a prison, not a fucking shopping arcade that's given itself airs."


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Talk about totally misrepresent was I was saying. Where have I said they are not going well? I admire a lot of forms of hard work, like I said. Apparently that makes me thatcherite. Lol.



This is what you said:



> this is where the left gets it wrong so often, imo. i.e. anyone who praises someone else and says "well done mate, you've done really well for yourself and turned nothing into something" is just sniffed at as being thatcherite.



You decided to post up and have a go at the "left".

I did not call you a Thatcherite. I said you were stating the old tired politics of the Blair years. 

That working class people I know would not agree with you. 

That the rise of Corbyn shows that the views you have posted up are on the wane.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> The woman has done well. She's done more than I could do.
> 
> You don't think people will want to work and better themselves after the revolution?  Hows that going to work then?



Was that aimed at me?

I did not mention revolution so I do not understand what you are asking.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

"The idea that if as an individual if one grafts and works one will be rewarded is a fallacy"

Better not work for anything then. Better tell that to all the people who feel they have achieved shit in their lives. Yes the world is unfair and some people will work for little reward, which is sad. But that wont stop me praising those who have put in and have been lucky to get out.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> Surely you should compare it to other places in Brixton that serve booze?. Are the bouncers searching people outside the dogstar a welcoming sight?.


I'm not sure if Pop Brixton should be directly compared to a nightclub that stays open till 4am. I thought it was a place where all around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wba views are they then? That I object to being called a thatcherite because I happen to think the woman seems to have done well?


----------



## deadringer (Aug 25, 2015)

han said:


> I think the wording in your first example is pleasantly polite.
> 
> The second one - well, what'd you expect from Man U?





editor said:


> Me too. It has a completely different tone to the Pop one.




The one that says they will be searching people they deem suspicious and they will be profiling people suspected of being pickpockets?!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm not sure if Pop Brixton should be directly compared to a nightclub that stays open till 4am. I thought it was a place where all around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.


But it's open late and sells booze. Is it less welcoming than the 414 with it's metal detector?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Rather than sniping and sneering at this woman who had had the audacity to use the tools available to expand a business selling wine from her bedroom into a container in a container park, is the crowd funding thing an option you could use to help raise funds for Cressingham Gardens? With the help of social media it could bea great success, I note on the thread in general that the lady fined by the courts for stealing Mars Bars had over 8k raised for her in a few days.




Idiot. Read the fucking thread.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> But it's open late and sells booze. Is it less welcoming than the 414 with it's metal detector?


So do loads of pubs and none I can think of have those stark terms and conditions stuck on the door. But are you really comparing Pop with the 414 now?!!


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

You should go to millwall ed. They even search the pensioners.


----------



## gdubz (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Wba views are they then? That I object to being called a thatcherite because I happen to think the woman seems to have done well?


Hyperbole?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The idea that if as an individual if one grafts and works one will be rewarded is a fallacy.


Not sure there is an alternative though. Or one I can be convinced of anyway. In my experience the people I know who've worked hard to better their lot have in the main succeeded in doing so.

What chance have you got if you don't work hard? At least you give yourself the best chance if you've put in the graft.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> "The idea that if as an individual if one grafts and works one will be rewarded is a fallacy"
> 
> Better not work for anything then. Better tell that to all the people who feel they have achieved shit in their lives. Yes the world is unfair and some people will work for little reward, which is sad. But that wont stop me praising those who have put in and have been lucky to get out.



So you now say the world is unfair.

The whole point of the "left" you deride is to make it more fair. To make sure all work is properly rewarded. Something that Corbyn ( who does not want revolution but genuine reform) says. Which unlike your support for Blairite aspirational politics he really means. Which is why a lot of young people support him.

So you are now saying its not graft but luck. Well thats not the quite what you were saying before. I would give some agreement with you on that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

ddraig said:


> it's funny how editor MUST answer and reply and justify everything when you don't even bother to respond to stuff put to you
> double standards much?



TBF he doesn't see half the stuff put to him because of his habit of putting people who disagree with him (editor excluded) on ignore.


----------



## gdubz (Aug 25, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> But it's open late and sells booze. Is it less welcoming than the 414 with it's metal detector?


Does 414 sell booze?! I thought it catered to a "teetotal" late night demographic. [Assumes the U75 foetal position...]


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Combination of the two. I would vote cobyn. But I doubt he would be the type to deride a woman like this anyway. He would sneer at others who praise her as being thatcherite either. Or perhaps I am wrong.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So you now say the world is unfair.
> 
> The whole point of the "left" you deride is to make it more fair. To make sure all work is properly rewarded. Something that Corbyn ( who does not want revolution but genuine reform) says. Which unlike your support for Blairite aspirational politics he really means. Which is why a lot of young people support him.
> 
> So you are now saying its not graft but luck. Well thats not the quite what you were saying before. I would give some agreement with you on that.


Combination of the two. I would vote cobyn. But I doubt he would be the type to deride a woman like this anyway. I doubt he would sneer at others who praise her as being thatcherite either. Or perhaps I am wrong.


----------



## gdubz (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Combination of the two. I would vote cobyn. But I doubt he would be the type to deride a woman like this anyway. I doubt he would sneer at others who praise her as being thatcherite either. Or perhaps I am wrong.


My guess is that you would vote Corbyn...


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 25, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> But it's open late and sells booze. Is it less welcoming than the 414 with it's metal detector?


how late is it open? anyone know?



BigMoaner said:


> Combination of the two. I would vote cobyn. But I doubt he would be the type to deride a woman like this anyway. I doubt he would sneer at others who praise her as being thatcherite either. Or perhaps I am wrong.


what has Corbyn got to do with Pop or Brixton, has he said something about it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Total lack of humility by usual suspect



Whereas, as usual,you're being a snide cunt who's too gutless to say what they mean.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Nothing, but apparently he represents what I don't believe, or something.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> If that was on an u75 approved venue, no one would give a toss.



Every time I think you couldn't make yourself look more stupid, you go and surprise me.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Not sure there is an alternative though. Or one I can be convinced of anyway. In my experience the people I know who've worked hard to better their lot have in the main succeeded in doing so.
> 
> What chance have you got if you don't work hard? At least you give yourself the best chance if you've put in the graft.



This is derail its just that Big Moaner irritated me.

The imo big issue is that the post war golden decades in Europe have gone. A younger generation is faced with declining living standards. Something the post war generation assumed would rise - that the future would be better for succeeding generations.

Work is getting increasingly insecure compared to post war job for life- even in manual trades this was case. Middle management jobs are going due to IT technology. The world of work and capitalism is undergoing big changes. 

Cllr Jack Hopkins see Pop in broader terms as a way to deal with these issues. I dint think its going to work in as a social policy. 

The world of work is imo over emphasised. Reading the financial press work is hardly ever praised. Its about how to make money out of money not about graft. Thats for the little people.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> You should go to millwall ed. They even search the pensioners.


Yes, that's another really valid comparison, right there.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 25, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> how late is it open? anyone know?


12 I think.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Technology is taking more jobs than it replaces and it's going to get worse. Our high streets are fucked. Shit contracts everywhere. People with degrees doing menial work like the rest of us. Decline everywhere but London, and even that's becoming a boring shit hole. Not even many giant cooperations to look after us with decent wages and benefits, who could offer job for life, etc. Those that do exist there are hundreds applying for one job. Its bleak. So I"ll nod my hat to a woman who has turned a bedroom business into a shop and is flying high a bit.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

I think I might encourage my kids to emigrate, somewhere hot with a beautiful beach. Do simple work but be happy in the sun, in beautiful surroundings.


----------



## deadringer (Aug 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Whereas, as usual,you're being a snide cunt who's too gutless to say what they mean.





ViolentPanda said:


> Every time I think you couldn't make yourself look more stupid, you go and surprise me.




Anything on topic to say or are you just here to hurl personal insults?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> This is derail its just that Big Moaner irritated me.
> 
> The imo big issue is that the post war golden decades in Europe have gone. A younger generation is faced with declining living standards. Something the post war generation assumed would rise - that the future would be better for succeeding generations.
> 
> Work is getting increasingly insecure compared to post war job for life- even in manual trades this was case. Middle management jobs are going due to IT technology. The world of work and capitalism is undergoing big changes.



Rather, "the world of work" has undergone big changes *because* of changes in the nature of capitalism, from an accommodation with social democracy to "Devil take the hindmost".



> Cllr Jack Hopkins see Pop in broader terms as a way to deal with these issues. I dint think its going to work in as a social policy.



Jacko sees what is convenient for Jacko (and his networking and future political CV) to see.  



> The world of work is imo over emphasised. Reading the financial press work is hardly ever praised. Its about how to make money out of money not about graft. Thats for the little people.



The motto "work to live, don't live to work"(or variants thereof) have been with us for a long time. Unfortunately,the main reason "the world of work" is over-emphasised is because with each new year it becomes harder for Joe Public to earn enough to live, even including various in-work benefits. One of the reasons that ordinary primarily or secondarily productive work isn't praised is because that would force reflection on the matter of poor wages, terms and conditions on people who really don't want to reflect on such matters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Anything on topic to say or are you just here to hurl personal insults?



I've said plenty on topic.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 25, 2015)

Who have I insulted?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, that's another really valid comparison, right there.



The reason they search the pensioners at Millwall games is because some of the old duffers with season tickets were hoolies back in the '70s. Same with most clubs.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Technology is taking more jobs than it replaces and it's going to get worse. Our high streets are fucked. Shit contracts everywhere. People with degrees doing menial work like the rest of us. Decline everywhere but London, and even that's becoming a boring shit hole. Not even many giant cooperations to look after us with decent wages and benefits, who could offer job for life, etc. Those that do exist there are hundreds applying for one job. Its bleak. So I"ll nod my hat to a woman who has turned a bedroom business into a shop and is flying high a bit.



And Pop seems more likely to provide opportunity and employment as a business and retail park than as the horticultural green oasis that some claim it was supposed to be.


----------



## twistedAM (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And Pop seems more likely to provide opportunity and employment as a business and retail park than as the horticultural green oasis that some claim it was supposed to be.



Glad you're not in Brazil or else the rainforests would be totally fucked by now.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And Pop seems more likely to provide opportunity and employment as a business and retail park than as the horticultural green oasis that some claim it was supposed to be.


The 'claimed' horticultural theme comes from the fucking giant sized gardening fork and spade that was seen rising up and filling the air from beneath the words 'Grow Brixton' in the original mock ups, and the phrase "green oasis" is still being used to describe the venture on The Collective's website.


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## teuchter (Aug 25, 2015)

God help us.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 26, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And Pop seems more likely to provide opportunity and employment as a business and retail park than as the horticultural green oasis that some claim it was supposed to be.



Why?

Grow Brixton was to be combination of community project and small business ventures. With an emphasis on making and growing. 

The "horticultural green oasis" could have provided people with useful skills in food production and horticulture that would have improved chances of obtaining work. As the growing area was to be linked to a canteen that used what was grown this could have also provided a place to learn new skills. 

Anyway I thought you had said previously that Pop was living up to the promises of the original scheme?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Technology is taking more jobs than it replaces and it's going to get worse. Our high streets are fucked. Shit contracts everywhere. People with degrees doing menial work like the rest of us. Decline everywhere but London, and even that's becoming a boring shit hole. Not even many giant cooperations to look after us with decent wages and benefits, who could offer job for life, etc. Those that do exist there are hundreds applying for one job. Its bleak. So I"ll nod my hat to a woman who has turned a bedroom business into a shop and is flying high a bit.



I was agreeing with all that but then comes the last sentence.

Yes its bleak and the future for London is for it to service the needs of the well off.

And if we are lucky for politicians like Cllr Jacko to go begging for charity from big business. As in getting a few crumbs off the rich mans table in the shape of Adidas corporate sponsorship.

This is what Pop exemplifies.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The motto "work to live, don't live to work"(or variants thereof) have been with us for a long time. Unfortunately,the main reason "the world of work" is over-emphasised is because with each new year it becomes harder for Joe Public to earn enough to live, even including various in-work benefits. .



I was thinking of saying I don’t agree with idea of work in my earlier posts . But thought better of it then.

One of my issues with Pop/ Jacko going on about a leg up not a hand out and being entrepreneurial  is that I think its all part of the ideology of capitalism to get us all beavering away.

Its about time the idea of work was questioned. With all the latest technology its perfectly possible to reduce work hours. Work is not a good thing in itself.

Nor is this obsession to make everyone a little competitive entrepreneur progressive imo.

One of the reasons why I liked the original Grow project is that it looked to me like it would look at some alternative ways of doing things. A reformist mixture of more socially orientated business and community project. Grow Brixton had potential. Which was why some supported the first concept.

Rather than Pop which is as Leanderman says is just a straightforward business and retail park. A hip version of one but thats all it is.


----------



## deadringer (Aug 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Why?
> 
> Grow Brixton was to be combination of community project and small business ventures. With an emphasis on making and growing.
> 
> ...



IMO a horticultural green oasis where people can learn skills in food production and horticulture is a bit wasted plonked down in Brixton, London. A space where you can hire a desk, area, or office space is much more useful for starting up a business that will be a success in London.


----------



## editor (Aug 26, 2015)

deadringer said:


> IMO a horticultural green oasis where people can learn skills in food production and horticulture is a bit wasted plonked down in Brixton, London. A space where you can hire a desk, area, or office space is much more useful for starting up a business that will be a success in London.


No more of a 'waste' than the nearby Ebony Horse Club. Besides, there's plenty of interest and openings for urban gardening/growing. I'd rather see that happening than yet another fucking expensive 'street food' outlet turning up in Brixton. That hardly taxes the imagination, does it?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Why?
> 
> Grow Brixton was to be combination of community project and small business ventures. With an emphasis on making and growing.
> 
> The "horticultural green oasis" could have provided people with useful skills in food production and horticulture that would have improved chances of obtaining work.



Growing has its place and clearly has its place at Pop, which looks greener each time I visit, as things grow.

But for an emphasis on growing I'd choose a place with soil.

And I am not sure that food production and horticulture skills are the best ways of obtaining work in the heart of the capital of an advanced economy in a post-industrial age.



Gramsci said:


> As the growing area was to be linked to a canteen that used what was grown this could have also provided a place to learn new skills.



Canteen skills are certainly being developed in the many food places at Pop.



Gramsci said:


> Anyway I thought you had said previously that Pop was living up to the promises of the original scheme?



Yes. I (still) do.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 26, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Growing has its place and clearly has its place at Pop, which looks greener each time I visit, as things grow.
> 
> But for an emphasis on growing I'd choose a place with soil.
> 
> ...



As editor already posted up urban agriculture is an idea that is gaining ground. Either using existing land or designing it into new buildings.

Its bigger in USA. Its very much a response to post industrial age and food poverty. Detroit is example.

Its interesting to compare what is happening in Loughborough Junction to Brixton. The farm and the meanwhile use of building opposite ( The Platform) is much less in your face commercially orientated than Pop.

Pop has gone for the tried and tested model of street food. Its not innovative even in Brixton. The canteen skills it may or may not provide are there to service the well off. Its about training for a service economy. I see "Street food" everywhere now.

Whereas Urban agriculture as in LJ has aim to give ordinary people more control over there lives.

The farm in LJ does not have good soil. So they use tubs etc. The urban farming on buildings does not need much soil. There are other techniques.

Another aspect of Grow was making things ( in small business). Now its just desk space and shopping.

Pop is a missed opportunity to experiment. There are other groups in Brixton and LJ doing more interesting things with less fanfare. ie Smalll World Urbanism and the Remakery. Pop is what it is. Nothing special.

Pop does not deal with the post industrial age. Except as a dystopia. Had a wander last weekend. It was a bit wet so not many people around. Reminded a bit of Blade Runner. ie the future is shit. 

I wonder how green it is? What its carbon use is?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 26, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> urban agriculture is an idea that is gaining ground. Either using existing land or designing it into new buildings.
> 
> Its bigger in USA. Its very much a response to post industrial age and food poverty. Detroit is example.



Urban agriculture does not convince me. I think its impact will be limited.



Gramsci said:


> As editor
> 
> Pop has gone for the tried and tested model of street food. Its not innovative even in Brixton. I see "Street food" everywhere now.



Agreed. It doesn't interest me that much. That may not be a bad thing.



Gramsci said:


> As editor
> 
> The farm in LJ does not have good soil. So they use tubs etc. The urban farming on buildings does not need much soil. There are other techniques.



Soil underfoot sounds more sensible. (Allotments going begging up Norwood rd, where my sister-in-law has one)



Gramsci said:


> As editor
> 
> Another aspect of Grow was making things ( in small business). Now its just desk space and shopping.
> Pop is a missed opportunity to experiment.



Seems to be plenty of things going on there. Cut-price units apparently available if people want to make things. It's up to the tenants what they make (of it). One can't always prescribe.



Gramsci said:


> Pop does not deal with the post industrial age. Except as a dystopia. Had a wander last weekend. It was a bit wet so not many people around. Reminded a bit of Blade Runner. ie the future is shit.



Other people really like it. It can get pretty busy. I am indifferent. Different strokes I suppose



Gramsci said:


> I wonder how green it is? What its carbon use is?



No idea


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## editor (Aug 26, 2015)

So we're supposed to celebrate people getting bar serving and fast food (sorry, _street food_) flipping skills?

Gramsci is quite right: this could and should have been something bold, new and adventurous. And all we got was Adidas and a replica of Shoreditch.

What's happening in Loughborough Junction is miles more progressive and interesting, and relates far more to its current residents. Things like The Platform (where the Cider Bar has been operating from) are far, far more inclusive too.


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## Manter (Aug 26, 2015)

Ooh, I didn't know there were allotments available on Norwood road.

Edit to add- ugh, not allowed to apply, wrong area, suggest I apply for those behind groveway with a very long waiting list. I thought this grumpy thread was going to have an upside!


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## teuchter (Aug 27, 2015)

Urban agriculture is fashionable at the moment (a bit like box parks are) but doesn't really make sense. Gardening yes, agriculture no. There are plenty of good reasons to get people into growing stuff. But it's a wasteful way to go about producing food to feed people with. This article explains some of the reasons why. And I'm not sure messing around with grow bags is really going to provide routes into employment in proper agriculture.

Not everyone in LJ is into the "urban farm" there. At a recent consultation session I heard a couple of people from the nearby estate complaining about it. Saying it was a pet project of middle-class LJAG people, and that they wanted there to be a gym there instead. I don't know how widespread this view is. But you can't assume it's something everyone wants. There are already community gardening schemes in Brockwell Park and Ruskin Park...are they oversubscribed?


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## teuchter (Aug 27, 2015)

Some more reading on the realities of urban agriculture.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Some more reading on the realities of urban agriculture.


Oh, a two year old article that's entirely about farming in New York, and another three year old article about the US and Canada.  Thanks for that.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

Manter said:


> Ooh, I didn't know there were allotments available on Norwood road.
> 
> Edit to add- ugh, not allowed to apply, wrong area, suggest I apply for those behind groveway with a very long waiting list. I thought this grumpy thread was going to have an upside!


Friends just got their plot there this year. With an amazing view. Took 8 years to get to the top of the list mind!


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## Ms T (Aug 27, 2015)

Manter said:


> Ooh, I didn't know there were allotments available on Norwood road.
> 
> Edit to add- ugh, not allowed to apply, wrong area, suggest I apply for those behind groveway with a very long waiting list. I thought this grumpy thread was going to have an upside!


Where did you find the info?


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## SpamMisery (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh, a two year old article that's entirely about farming in New York, and another three year old article about the US and Canada.  Thanks for that.



Whats wrong with a U.S. focused article and what's wrong with it being 2 years old?


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Some more reading on the realities of urban agriculture.


Both good articles and entirely relevant to central London. I mentioned some pages ago that I could not see how a site that size could realistically produce food reliably and consistently enough to maintain a popular restaurant or cafe. I do think gardening is an important part of urban education and recreation though. Extending expectations to meaningful urban production and even sustainability is a leap too far.



> It’s ... a viable business niche for luxury brands supplying status food to gourmands and green fanatics;



I guess the Shrub & Shutter / LJ tie up is an example of that.


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## lefteri (Aug 27, 2015)

A friend is involved in this: http://www.mobilegardeners.org/growelephant/ on a patch of the old heygate which will be the last to be built on - it is the absolute antithesis of pop brixton and seems to be very popular with local residents (and has no native soil)


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## Manter (Aug 27, 2015)

Ms T said:


> Where did you find the info?


Croydon area allotment association


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## Ms T (Aug 27, 2015)

Manter said:


> Croydon area allotment association


Norwood Rd's in Croydon?


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## Manter (Aug 27, 2015)

Ms T said:


> Norwood Rd's in Croydon?


No idea! Just the site that came up on google and told me about allotments


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## editor (Aug 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Whats wrong with a U.S. focused article and what's wrong with it being 2 years old?


Because we're not New York or Canada, and the interest in urban gardening has grown massively recently. But hey - if you prefer to have The Collective all over this and people learning vital skills like beer pouring and fast food flipping to something that could have been innovative, inspiring and unique - and something that would have actually fitted in with the promised concept -  that's fine by me.

Thing is, I know how this is going to play out. The same regular faces will now go out of their way to belittle and dismiss the idea, purely because I suggested it - regardless of the fact that it would actually have made sense in context of the original plans that featured a fucking huge fork and spade stuck on top of the site.

Here's some links to similar and related schemes. I don't expect anyone will bother reading them, or they'll find a flaw in one of them and concentrate on that, while ignoring the others. Enjoy your £7.50 pints and security checks.

Grow Bristol
Why London needs to grow more food [PDF]
Building London’s first commercial urban farm
Bristol to provide urban farming inspiration as EU Green Capital
Urban Roots, Glasgow



> Todmorden is a village of 17,000 inhabitants in Yorkshire, United Kingdom with a successful urban agriculture model. The project, which began in 2008, has meant that food crops have been planted at forty locations throughout the village. The produce is all free, the work is done by volunteers, and passers-by and visitors are invited to pick and use the produce.,[87][88] Some Todmorden plots have been permission plots while others have been examples of guerilla gardening. All are "propaganda gardens" promoting locals to consider growing local, to eat seasonal, to consider the provenance of their food, and to enjoy fresh. There are food plots in the street, in the health centre car park, at the rail station, in the police station, in the cemetery, and in all the village schools. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_agriculture#UK





> Kate Hofman and Tom Webster are giving new meaning to the phrase "box lunch" with their reinvented shipping container, the GrowUp Box.
> Inside the 20-foot container, tilapia are farmed in tanks specially designed to ensure the fish enough room to grow, while on top, greens are cultivated in vertical columns. The water from the tilapia tanks circulates through the columns, where the fish waste provides nourishment to about 400 plants. The fish and greens are sold to area restaurants.
> 
> The project's parent company, GrowUp Urban Farms, consults with people looking to build their own boxes and is set to start building the first commercial-scale aquaponics farm in London soon, Hofman said.
> http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...-10-innovative-projects-from-around-the-world


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Because we're not New York


Well we're certainly not Todmorden.







Even in Todmorden it is about communication rather than supply.



> All are "propaganda gardens" promoting locals to consider growing local, to eat seasonal, to consider the provenance of their food, and to enjoy fresh.


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## Mr Retro (Aug 27, 2015)

Being purely practical If I was 18 years old in Brixton looking for some skills to apply to getting a decent job I'd choose to work in what Pop is now rather than in an urban farming scheme.

In my view there are more skills to be picked up in the service industry and applied to making a living than you can pick up in an urban farming scheme and apply to making a living. 

I say this as somebody who put myself through university working in bars and restaurants while doing a degree in Food Business. So I know both sides of the coin very well.


----------



## editor (Aug 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> In my view there are more skills to be picked up in the service industry and applied to making a living than you can pick up in an urban farming scheme and apply to making a living.


You think there's any kind of shortage of places where people can't learn those fast-food/drink serving skills elsewhere?

Lambeth Council has gifted this land rent free to Pop Brixton and this the best they can do with it. How _really_ forward looking.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Because we're not New York or Canada, and the interest in urban gardening has grown massively recently. But hey - if you prefer to have The Collective all over this and people learning vital skills like beer pouring and fast food flipping to something that could have been innovative, inspiring and unique - and something that would have actually fitted in with the promised concept -  that's fine by me.
> 
> Thing is, I know how this is going to play out. The same regular faces will now go out of their way to belittle and dismiss the idea, purely because I suggested it - regardless of the fact that it would actually have made sense in context of the original plans that featured a fucking huge fork and spade stuck on top of the site.
> 
> ...



All I did was ask why a US report wasn't relevant or why one written two years ago could be dismissed. There's an interesting discussion to be had on urban farms, but I suspect it won't take place here


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## Mr Retro (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> You think there's any kind of shortage of places where people can't learn those fast-food/drink serving skills elsewhere?


But to say you learn fast-food/drink serving is to vastly underestimate what you can learn. If you want to learn, there is real chefs doing proper cooking.   You could learn how to order properly so you get to know about supply chain and procurement and building supplier relationships. 



editor said:


> Lambeth Council has gifted this land rent free to Pop Brixton and this the best they can do with it. How _really_ forward looking.


That's fair enough. Being practical as I say, I'd prefer Pop as it is now if I wanted a job as a young person.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

The land has not been gifted free. Lambeth put in the land. Pop had to invest all the development costs and manage the project. Lambeth and Pop have a 50/50 profit share (which in the original Grow! proposal was promised to be substantial and increasing).


----------



## editor (Aug 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That's fair enough. Being practical as I say, I'd prefer Pop as it is now if I wanted a job as a young person.


If you're only interested in the service industry, maybe - and that's often a pretty soul destroying job if you're at the bottom where the learning opportunities are scarce (something I have experience of).

But wouldn't it have been great if this rent free place had been used imaginatively for something different, something unique and something more aspirational - and something that could have taught new skills in short demand?

Ebony Horse Club proved that you can think outside of the box and come up with something that provides real benefits to the local community. Some of the stuff going in LJ seems to be on the same track and the original Grow Brixton concept seemed to be coming a similar kind of place.

But now all we've mainly got is a trendy fast food and booze hangout in a trendy Shoreditch club setting, given to Pop Brixton for free.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

And offices / studios for maybe 30 companies (8 heavily subsidised by the foodie units). And desk space for people who don't need/want a whole office.


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## leanderman (Aug 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> And offices / studios for maybe 30 companies (8 heavily subsidised by the foodie units). And desk space for people who don't need/want a whole office.



And an increasing amount of growing. 

Plus a football event that brought in considerable funds and may even have been enjoyed by some local kids who also got to see top players.


----------



## BigMoaner (Aug 27, 2015)

Fuck the farms. Surrey that way V. i want speedy noodles back, let them take over the whole plot.

I was thinking that the whole Pop debate/affair would make an excellent In The Thick of It type mocumentary with council wankers, zealous locals, thoughtless hipsters, local youth, etc all featuring. It could be like a modern satire on teh state of modern London. Fixie bikes and grow your own turnip in the ghetto.


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## BigMoaner (Aug 27, 2015)

.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> So we're supposed to celebrate people getting bar serving and fast food (sorry, _street food_) flipping skills?



As I've said before, the (few) jobs gentrification have brought, have mostly been shite, insecure, low end service sector employment. Jacko Hopko may twat on about job creation, but a lot of this is "shuffling deckchairs on the Titanic" stuff. One restaurant closes, another opens...


----------



## deadringer (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> You're comparing the green oasis of Pop Brixton with a sold-out major music festival (capacity 20,000 people) and one of the biggest football grounds in Europe (capacity 75,731)?
> 
> Err, OK.




Todmorden is a village of 17,000 inhabitants in Yorkshire, United Kingdom with a successful urban agriculture model. The project, which began in 2008, has meant that food crops have been planted at forty locations throughout the village. The produce is all free, the work is done by volunteers, and passers-by and visitors are invited to pick and use the produce.,[87][88] Some Todmorden plots have been permission plots while others have been examples of guerilla gardening. All are "propaganda gardens" promoting locals to consider growing local, to eat seasonal, to consider the provenance of their food, and to enjoy fresh. There are food plots in the street, in the health centre car park, at the rail station, in the police station, in the cemetery, and in all the village schools. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_agriculture#UK

I love how when I compare T&C's concerning people entering public venues it's dismissed because of the vastly different numbers of people, but your quite happy to compare what's happening in a small rural village to what could be achieved in metropolitan London. Your really all over the place on this one Ed


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## editor (Aug 27, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I love how when I compare T&C's concerning people entering public venues it's dismissed because of the vastly different numbers of people, but your quite happy to compare what's happening in a small rural village to what could be achieved in metropolitan London. Your really all over the place on this one Ed


Well, you're nothing if totally fucking predictable.  

You just keep on making it personal, and we'll soon have this forum well and truly trashed, eh?


editor said:


> Here's some links to *similar and related schemes*. I don't expect anyone will bother reading them, *or they'll find a flaw in one of them and concentrate on that, while ignoring the others*. Enjoy your £7.50 pints and security checks.
> 
> Grow Bristol
> Why London needs to grow more food [PDF]
> ...


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 27, 2015)

That GrowUp company are nearer what the Dutch have been doing for a long time now with hydroponic farming. In the Netherlands you'll see greenhouse after greenhouse after greenhouse with all sorts of crops. It's interesting but I don't think it's approaching a comparison to Pop. 

I think GrowUp is too small to succeed commercially. Grow Bristol is similar but on a smaller scale again. I can't see how these small scale schemes can be successful other than as a novelty. 

But I do understand editors point that even as a novelty the council could have done something better at Pop. I just don't agree.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That GrowUp company are nearer what the Dutch have been doing for a long time now with hydroponic farming. In the Netherlands you'll see greenhouse after greenhouse after greenhouse with all sorts of crops.


Like Planet Thanet. 80 acres down there satisfies something like 15% of the UK salad veg needs. And powers a small town with captured energy. It's amazing.


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## CH1 (Aug 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Like Planet Thanet. 80 acres down there satisfies something like 15% of the UK salad veg needs. And powers a small town with captured energy. It's amazing.


I Googled Planet Thanet and this came up.
Geriatric Pop Brixton anybody?


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I Googled Planet Thanet and this came up.
> Geriatric Pop Brixton anybody?
> View attachment 75890




Sorry. Now known as Thanet Earth!


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## Ms T (Aug 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Like Planet Thanet. 80 acres down there satisfies something like 15% of the UK salad veg needs. And powers a small town with captured energy. It's amazing.


My friend gets free tomatoes from them for her charity. They're lovely.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I Googled Planet Thanet and this came up.
> Geriatric Pop Brixton anybody?
> View attachment 75890


Older folks could use some more facilities around here. Shame that what's on offer in Pop Brixton is almost exclusively aimed at a younger, affluent demographic.


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## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

Ms T said:


> My friend gets free tomatoes from them for her charity. They're lovely.


I find the whole concept and scale amazing. I can't believe how little we hear about it.


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## MrM (Aug 27, 2015)

Is it reasonable to reduce urban horticulture to job opportunities or productivity?

I think it’s at least as much about quality of life: you can involve a different, additional demographic (vs recent accusations of Pop's social/economic homogeneity); you offer a new vision to inspire other urban architecture projects; you get mental health benefits (from the simple presence of more greenery, but much more so if you get your hands dirty and nurture a plant to productivity); if you can spark a ripple effect that leads to people being enthused to try growing stuff at home or work the micro-benefits can be multiplied to produce material benefits in improved air quality, reduced pressure on drainage, habitats for invertebrates, therefore songbirds and so on. Frankly you could make an argument for it even if there was no produce.

And anyone who’s tasted a tomato straight from the plant knows better than to suggest food production is purely about efficiency of resources. Really fresh produce is qualitatively different (in nutrition and flavour) from stuff that’s mass-produced and well travelled.

It’s simplistic to dismiss it all on the basis that street food outlets will offer better employment opportunities than gardening.

But above all, why choose one if you could offer both?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 27, 2015)

MrM said:


> Is it reasonable to reduce urban horticulture to job opportunities or productivity?
> 
> I think it’s at least as much about quality of life: you can involve a different, additional demographic (vs recent accusations of Pop's social/economic homogeneity); you offer a new vision to inspire other urban architecture projects; you get mental health benefits (from the simple presence of more greenery, but much more so if you get your hands dirty and nurture a plant to productivity); if you can spark a ripple effect that leads to people being enthused to try growing stuff at home or work the micro-benefits can be multiplied to produce material benefits in improved air quality, reduced pressure on drainage, habitats for invertebrates, therefore songbirds and so on. Frankly you could make an argument for it even if there was no produce.
> 
> ...


I think you've misread.



leanderman said:


> Growing has its place and clearly has its place at Pop, which looks greener each time I visit, as things grow.





teuchter said:


> Urban agriculture ... doesn't really make sense. Gardening yes, agriculture no. There are plenty of good reasons to get people into growing stuff. But it's a wasteful way to go about producing food to feed people with.





Rushy said:


> I mentioned some pages ago that I could not see how a site that size could realistically produce food reliably and consistently enough to maintain a popular restaurant or cafe. I do think gardening is an important part of urban education and recreation though.


----------



## elmpp (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Older folks could use some more facilities around here. Shame that what's on offer in Pop Brixton is almost exclusively aimed at a younger, affluent demographic.


You know, read in a certain light, it might appear you're trolling your own forum


----------



## Ozone (Aug 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Older folks could use some more facilities around here. Shame that what's on offer in Pop Brixton is almost exclusively aimed at a younger, affluent demographic.



I took my almost 70 year old parents there a couple of weeks ago, they really enjoyed themselves, as did I. We could have been rich or poor, it didn't matter that we weren't young, cool or hipsters. No one forced us to have a £7.50 pint, or made us feel bad for not having one. In fact we settled on an ice-cream...less than a tenner for four of us and an enjoyable afternoon all round.


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## editor (Aug 27, 2015)

elmpp said:


> You know, read in a certain light, it might appear you're trolling your own forum


There's no special light needed to see your purpose here.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2015)

I thought I would do a post that was not to confrontational that did a compare and contrast of how meanwhile space is used in two areas - Brixton and LJ - post 3727.

I also did not bring class into it. I know full well the criticism of LJAG as being for the middle classes.

I have also been criticised for being to partisan about class on this thread. So I thought I would set that aside.

So I thought I was being pretty reasonable.

What happens? My post is picked apart. Even the issue of class is used against it. When if I raise it I get criticised.

My argument is this.

When I compare and contrast the use of Meanwhile space in LJ ( run by LJAG) and Brixton I see significant differences.

The main one being that there is an alternative to the model of Pop.

I bring up issue of Urban farming and its picked apart. The whole thrust of argument is that TINA to ending up working in the service sector serving the needs of well off middle classes in London. Why that’s thought good here is beyond me. It might be only realistic option now and in future but its crap one.

And Corporate sponsorship? Its shite and humiliating to see that Councils and community groups have to ingratiate themselves to companies like Adidas to get a few crumbs of funding.

I am not that unreasonable. I will compromise. Why I take a measured line of what is happening in LJ. However how Pop has turned out is a step to far for me.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 27, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I bring up issue of Urban farming and its picked apart. The whole thrust of argument is that TINA to ending up working in the service sector serving the needs of well off middle classes in London. Why that’s thought good here is beyond me. It might be only realistic option now and in future but its crap one


I find your posts quite hard to follow so apologies if I have it wrong, but do you think the service industry exists only to serve the needs of well off middle classes in London? It doesn't of course. 

Even if it did, and if you can make a decent living doing it, what's the problem?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I find your posts quite hard to follow so apologies if I have it wrong, but do you think the service industry exists only to serve the needs of well off middle classes in London? It doesn't of course.
> 
> Even if it did, and if you can make a decent living doing it, what's the problem?



Is the gist of what I am saying that difficult to fathom? 

Depends on how one defines service sector. People doing meals on wheels or working or street cleaning could be defined as service sector.

What I am saying is the growing army of workers who are there serving the needs of the well to do middle classes.  See this as I go around London. 

Its not the kind of society I like living in.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I find your posts quite hard to follow so apologies if I have it wrong, but do you think the service industry exists only to serve the needs of well off middle classes in London? It doesn't of course.
> 
> Even if it did, and if you can make a decent living doing it, what's the problem?


Most people don't make a good living out the service industry. It's by far one the lowest paid sectors in the UK.






http://www.poverty.org.uk/52/index.shtml


http://metro.co.uk/2015/03/01/the-top-10-worst-paid-jobs-in-the-uk-5084108/

It also has a proportionately high number of more workers on zero hour contracts: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31859468


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What I am saying is the growing army of workers who are there serving the needs of the well to do middle classes.



How is it different to being low paid staff in a working man's pub?


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> How is it different to being low paid staff in a working man's pub?


"working mans pubs" will soon be non existent in London
largely because the clientele is shrinking as a consequence
of neo liberal economics/gentification.........


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 28, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I find your posts quite hard to follow so apologies if I have it wrong, but do you think the service industry exists only to serve the needs of well off middle classes in London? It doesn't of course


you are correct there are tourists and the super rich as well
nonetheless it is not a job with a future
how many bar staff, waiters chefs do you see over 40 ?

e2a that goes for retail too


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 28, 2015)

I'm not making a case for people to come in at an entry level, stay at that level and expect career longevity and to make a decent living. 

I am saying it's a brilliant industry to start in because you can pick up a wide range of skills and move to something with better prospects. Also shows on your cv you're not afraid of graft. 



Mr Retro said:


> In my view there are more skills to be picked up in the service industry and applied to making a living ....





Mr Retro said:


> But to say you learn fast-food/drink serving is to vastly underestimate what you can learn. If you want to learn, there is real chefs doing proper cooking. You could learn how to order properly so you get to know about supply chain and procurement and building supplier relationships.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I am saying it's a brilliant industry to start in because you can pick up a wide range of skills and move to something with better prospects. Also shows on your cv you're not afraid of graft.


I worked for two years in a cafe. The only skills I picked up were how to use their coffee machine and how to make some sandwich fillings. There were no 'real chefs' around and there wasn't a great deal to learn.

Moreover, there generally aren't many opportunities to climb up the ladder when you're on the bottom of the rung in a low paid, zero hours service industry contract, no matter how hard you graft.

This PDF paper highlights the plight of people stuck in such crap jobs:


> Low pay in the UK is a major problem. Last year one in five workers was low paid, unchanged since the 1990s and significantly higher than 30 years ago. When measuring low pay prevalence, the UK also ranks poorly against other mature economies, while in some industries, such as the retail and care sectors, low pay is endemic.
> 
> Yet in examining low pay, far too little attention is given to trying to understand the opportunities and barriers individuals face in attempting to work their way up the earnings ladder.
> 
> ...


http://www.resolutionfoundation.org...14/08/Starting-out-or-getting-stuck-FINAL.pdf


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## SpamMisery (Aug 28, 2015)

Restaurant/Bar work is great for developing confidence and people skills for those entering the jobs market


----------



## han (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Restaurant/Bar work is great for developing confidence and people skills for those entering the jobs market


I agree with that. The people side of things, customer service and getting along with your colleagues in a team, are very transferable skills. 

Confidence, friendliness and being a good teamworker are things that will help get you a better job, for sure, if you want one.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 28, 2015)

editor said:


> I worked for two years in a cafe. The only skills I picked up were how to use their coffee machine and how to make some sandwich fillings. There were no 'real chefs' around and there wasn't a great deal to learn.
> 
> Moreover, there generally aren't many opportunities to climb up the ladder when you're on the bottom of the rung in a low paid, zero hours service industry contract, no matter how hard you graft.
> 
> ...


We could swap anecdotes etc for a week to prove our different points. Fact is the service industry can be a great start to your career. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed road to a great career, but it can be. I know if I stayed in it I would have made a really good career for myself in it.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 28, 2015)

Mr Retro SpamMisery at what age did you start working serving people and how has it helped you?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 28, 2015)

I notice that agriculture sector earnings don't appear to be included in that chart.

Opportunities being generated are not all or even mostly catering. There are something like 30 more businesses moving in to the offices.


----------



## 299 old timer (Aug 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I notice that agriculture sector earnings don't appear to be included in that chart.
> 
> Opportunities being generated are not all or even mostly catering. There are something like 30 more businesses moving in to the offices.



Don't let facts spoil a good argument


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> We could swap anecdotes etc for a week to prove our different points. Fact is the service industry can be a great start to your career. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed road to a great career, but it can be. I know if I stayed in it I would have made a really good career for myself in it.


I wasn't swapping anecdotes. I was posting up solid research that shows that the service industry offers one of the lowest pay rates in the UK with a much higher than average use of zero hours contracts. For many people it is anything but a "great start to their career," but a shit, low paid job which they find themselves trapped in.

Research:



> The extent to which low-paid workers in the UK stay trapped in poverty is highlighted by a report showing only one in four workers who were low-paid in 2001 – and who have remained in employment for most of the subsequent decade – went on to escape poverty and move on to higher pay.
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/11/low-paid-workers-poverty-trap-report





> Essentially we found that financial necessity, a desire to work and the lack of better opportunities led people to take poor quality, temporary jobs that trapped them in long-term insecurity and poverty. For many this led to lasting and sometimes severe, economic hardship.
> http://www.jrf.org.uk/media-centre/no-pay-low-pay-cycle-5393


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## ddraig (Aug 28, 2015)

Don't let facts spoil a good argument!


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Restaurant/Bar work is great for developing confidence and people skills for those entering the jobs market


It's not if you're in the backroom making sandwiches and slicing meat (yes, I've done that), or working in a hot kitchen cooking fries, kebabs and burgers, or being front of house in a high turnover fast food restaurant.

And here's some research on the miserable working conditions some people endure in the service industry:


> Miserable working conditions are taking their toll on hospitality workers, with staff in depressing environments taking more than double the number of sick days off a year as employees in other sectors.
> 
> A  survey of more than 1,000 UK workers, conducted by Lightspeed Research in March, reveals that 38% in the hospitality and service sector think their working environments are "gloomy" or "depressing" and take 19 sick days off a year, compared with the typical surveyed worker's eight.
> 
> ...


----------



## han (Aug 28, 2015)

editor said:


> It's not if you're in the backroom making sandwiches and slicing meat (yes, I've done that), or working in a hot kitchen cooking fries, kebabs and burgers, or being front of house in a high turnover fast food restaurant



This is very true. Those are examples where you're not going to be able to progress much at all.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Restaurant/Bar work is great for developing confidence and people skills for those entering the jobs market



Perhaps when you're 18, and for a short time, but it's not a career, and many people geting that work tend to require some confidence and people skills already.....

Lacking those skills tends to not be tolerated in the service industry for very long.

My kid has just started doing bar work in Brixton and everyone loves him....but he has good people skills, and is confident enough to get by....he can answer back when he needs to and knows when not to, and is very amiable and, erm, not at all like me...

A shy kid aint gonna last 5 mins in a busy piss hole full of twats in hats making smart remarks and questioning them...


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## Mr Retro (Aug 28, 2015)

han said:


> This is very true. Those are examples where you're not going to be able to progress much at all.


Quite, nobody is disputing that at all


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Perhaps when you're 18, and for a short time, but it's not a career, and many people geting that work tend to require some confidence and people skills already.....
> 
> Lacking those skills tends to not be tolerated in the service industry for very long.


There's a reason why bar jobs figure near the very bottom of this list of job satisfaction ratings. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26671221


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 28, 2015)

My kid thinks it's the best job ever. He just gets on with people really well. Some geezer gave him loads of skateboard and hip hop tees the other day....but it's the Elm Park Tavern.

I think even his patience would be tested at pop. He doesn't respond well to fake shit.


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## Ms T (Aug 28, 2015)

Nanker Jnr is exceptionally personable!

Agricultural wages are also really shit, though.


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## teuchter (Aug 28, 2015)

Those of you who thought that pop/grow Brixton was mainly going to be about literally growing plants... what kind of work training / career opportunities did you envisage it offering, exactly?


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 28, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Those of you who thought that pop/grow Brixton was mainly going to be about literally growing plants...



Did anyone?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2015)

Ms T said:


> Nanker Jnr is exceptionally personable!
> 
> Agricultural wages are also really shit, though.



I thought "grow" was aimed more at small-scale horticulture, rather than agriculture - to get people growing stuff that's not commercially available, or very expensive to buy.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Those of you who thought that pop/grow Brixton was mainly going to be about literally growing plants... what kind of work training / career opportunities did you envisage it offering, exactly?


It's clearly a niche area but there seems to be considerable growth and I dare say the prospect may prove more interesting and satisfying than a career of zero hours burger-flipping (sorry, _street food_ flipping) and pouring pints. Sometimes just the experience of doing something different can prove fulfilling and rewarding can build confidence in the young (see: Ebony Horse Club - something else that could easily be dismissed by some)

Anyway, here's some links.

http://www.sustainweb.org/publications/roots_to_work/
http://www.skillsdevelopment.org/pdf/Urban-agriculture-research-full-report.pdf
http://elitebusinessmagazine.co.uk/analysis/item/city-slickers
https://helenbabbs.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/urban-agriculture-part-four-london/

.. and others from my earlier post.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 28, 2015)

Ms T said:


> Nanker Jnr is exceptionally personable!.



Thanks. He is. Dunno where he developed that....I really don't.


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## leanderman (Aug 28, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Those of you who thought that pop/grow Brixton was mainly going to be about literally growing plants...



About 'growing' Brixton instead? 

So the debate is all a misunderstanding!


----------



## Twattor (Aug 28, 2015)

editor said:


> I wasn't swapping anecdotes. I was posting up solid research that shows that the service industry offers one of the lowest pay rates in the UK with a much higher than average use of zero hours contracts. For many people it is anything but a "great start to their career," but a shit, low paid job which they find themselves trapped in.
> 
> Research:



Agree and disagree.  I did six or seven years of bar/waiting/kitchen work many years ago.  I learnt a lot: self confidence from front of house, humility from wash-up, how to work in a high pressure team environment, an appreciation of food as chefs are always keen to find guinea pigs to try their latest creations, and how to keep beer (a skill i have since lost, as it always seems to disappear).

I considered it as a career for a while, but the prospects even as a manager working 40 whatever hours a week couldn't match the income i got from my day job plus the pub work.  Many of the friends i made in those years stayed on and now do well for themselves; if anything better than i do.  They also seem to have quite fulfilling lives.  

It is a matter of taking opportunites and making the best of them as you can.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Twattor said:


> Agree and disagree.  I did six or seven years of bar/waiting/kitchen work many years ago.  I learnt a lot: self confidence from front of house, humility from wash-up, how to work in a high pressure team environment, an appreciation of food as chefs are always keen to find guinea pigs to try their latest creations, and how to keep beer (a skill i have since lost, as it always seems to disappear).
> 
> I considered it as a career for a while, but the prospects even as a manager working 40 whatever hours a week couldn't match the income i got from my day job plus the pub work.  Many of the friends i made in those years stayed on and now do well for themselves; if anything better than i do.  They also seem to have quite fulfilling lives.
> 
> It is a matter of taking opportunites and making the best of them as you can.


But the reports of very low job satisfaction, increased use of zero hour contracts and near rock-bottom wages speak more about the overall experience for the majority of people.

Not everyone is in a position to 'take opportunities' for the reasons set out in the study I posted earlier.


----------



## Twattor (Aug 28, 2015)

editor said:


> But the reports of very low job satisfaction, increased use of zero hour contracts and near rock-bottom wages speak more about the overall experience for the majority of people.
> 
> Not everyone is in a position to 'take opportunities' for the reasons set out in the study I posted earlier.



When you start out it is a shit industry.  Like all things, you need to make of it what you can.  I've worked alongside people in kitchens who i'd consider unemployable in most industries, and watched them blossom as they've found an aptitude in kitchen work.  Like it or not, we're in a post industrial age; and although only sustainable whilst other nations catch up, service industries are currently not a bad career choice particularly for those who don't have an educational advantage.  I was pleased to see the idea of a chef school in Somerleyton, simply from my experiences with peers who left school at 16 with no skills and have now gone on to do well after a spell doiong similar.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Twattor said:


> When you start out it is a shit industry.  Like all things, you need to make of it what you can.  I've worked alongside people in kitchens who i'd consider unemployable in most industries, and watched them blossom as they've found an aptitude in kitchen work.  Like it or not, we're in a post industrial age; and although only sustainable whilst other nations catch up, service industries are currently not a bad career choice particularly for those who don't have an educational advantage.  I was pleased to see the idea of a chef school in Somerleyton, simply from my experiences with peers who left school at 16 with no skills and have now gone on to do well after a spell doiong similar.


Sure, but many low-paid workers stay trapped in poverty no matter how hard they graft: 
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/nov/11/low-paid-workers-poverty-trap-report


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## cuppa tee (Aug 28, 2015)

the last few pages of posters making excuses for
low paid work with few prospects has been depressing
the ghost of Maggie even haunts urban 75


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## Mr Retro (Aug 28, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> the last few pages of posters making excuses for
> low paid work with few prospects has been depressing
> the ghost of Maggie even haunts urban 75


An unsurprisingly dishonest interpretation of points people made.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> An unsurprisingly dishonest interpretation of points people made.


You think so? I'm not so sure.


----------



## Manter (Aug 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> My kid thinks it's the best job ever. He just gets on with people really well. Some geezer gave him loads of skateboard and hip hop tees the other day....but it's the Elm Park Tavern.
> 
> I think even his patience would be tested at pop. He doesn't respond well to fake shit.


Ooh, i know who your son is then. He is extremely charming.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

I was just talking to one of the food traders there. "It's become a giant club" were the words used to describe the place now. They also sell alcohol - if they didn't they couldn't afford to pay the rent.


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## Manter (Aug 28, 2015)

editor said:


> I was just talking to one of the food traders there. "It's become a giant club" were the words used to describe the place now. They also sell alcohol - if they didn't they couldn't afford to pay the rent.


Considering you hate the place you seem to spend a lot of time there. Give it a wide berth and go to somewhere you'll enjoy!


----------



## 299 old timer (Aug 28, 2015)

editor said:


> You think so? I'm not so sure.



If you can quote the posts where low pay is endorsed by the respective poster then please go ahead. What I understood is that hospitality, catering etc is a low paid job - that is just stating the fact of the matter, there was no endorsement regarding low wages. Given that you shifted the goalposts to the subject of low pay whilst still discussing the subject of Pop, are you suggesting (even subconsciously) that the workers there in the catering sector are underpaid? Are they not paid the London Living Wage? If so shame on the employer, I agree.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Manter said:


> Considering you hate the place you seem to spend a lot of time there. Give it a wide berth and go to somewhere you'll enjoy!


Um, I wasn't there.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Are they not paid the London Living Wage? If so shame on the employer, I agree.


They're a little bit vague and non committal on that, but it seems that at least a quarter will not be getting the Living Wage : 





> Will Pop pay London Living Wage? Tenants are encouraged to pay London Living Wage, with 75% of the first phase indicating that they intend to do so
> http://futurebrixton.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/13-05-15_FINAL_FAQ1.pdf


----------



## Ozone (Aug 28, 2015)

Manter said:


> Considering you hate the place you seem to spend a lot of time there. Give it a wide berth and go to somewhere you'll enjoy!



How about the Brockwell Park Community Greenhouses?

http://www.brockwellgreenhouses.org.uk/welcome/

There seems to be a lot on offer as far as horticulture is concerned and they're looking for volunteers - Editor?


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2015)

Ozone said:


> How about the Brockwell Park Community Greenhouses?
> 
> http://www.brockwellgreenhouses.org.uk/welcome/
> 
> There seems to be a lot on offer as far as horticulture is concerned and they're looking for volunteers - Editor?


I went to see them a couple of weeks ago and gave them a big plug on Buzz

















http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2015/08/...well-park-community-greenhouses-south-london/


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## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

Manter said:


> Considering you hate the place you seem to spend a lot of time there. Give it a wide berth and go to somewhere you'll enjoy!



Its not in my price range. So I cannot enjoy the delights of Pop. 

I had a look last Saturday. Nothing there for me.

Its all very well telling people to go off to somewhere they can enjoy. In Brixton those places are becoming less and less.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> How is it different to being low paid staff in a working man's pub?



Because there is feeling that we are in all together.

An anecdote. Today had to deliver to an upmarket mews house. Something the lady of the house had left at her office. Despite being a small mews it was the filipina who answered the door. Said the lady of the house was busy having a shower.

Thats the service industry for you. Middle class fuckers cannot even clean there little mews house. Fuck them.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Most people don't make a good living out the service industry. It's by far one the lowest paid sectors in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good effort Ed. Lost here.

What the replies you have got is the bosses line.

That these jobs are stepping stones to something "better".

The other line people get is the this is not a "real" job. Its a fill in job until one gets a "real" job.

This is not something that is universal. My French friend went back to France for summer. After month there told me coming back brought it home to him that in this country people are treated like shit.

This country has , as I read in Evening Standard yesterday, a "flexible" labour market. Unlike countries like France.

Reminds me of the old guy I used to know who worked in the same post room for 25 years. When he started everyone was secure full time employee. Cleaners , kitchen staff and postroom. By the time he left all these jobs were "outsourced". Everyone on as "temps" or rolling six months contracts.. So what were secure if poorly paid working class jobs with holidays and sick pay became part of the "flexible labour market". He was last one there on secure contract.

Of course these people were learning skills and would go on to better things. 

I can go on. Security guard I know told me all the new people his firm are taking on are now on Zero hours contracts.

The "service" industry in this country is about exploiting people.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 28, 2015)

Fuck her because she has a cleaner?!! You just sound angry at anyone who has done 'better' in life than you. That's a terrible way to live your life.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fuck her because she has a cleaner?!! You just sound angry at anyone who has done 'better' in life than you. That's a terrible way to live your life.



Gramsci has a point here.

But let's not start a debate about cleaners!


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fuck her because she has a cleaner?!! You just sound angry at anyone who has done 'better' in life than you. That's a terrible way to live your life.



Sorry what are you going on about?

You do not have a clue. I get around and about London and see a lot. 

If you cannot see how people are exploited in London then you are either thick or lacking in any human empathy for others.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fuck her because she has a cleaner?!! You just sound angry at anyone who has done 'better' in life than you. That's a terrible way to live your life.



And what do you mean by "better"?

I have no interest in doing "better" than anyone else. I am not interesting in a society where one has to climb over others to get higher up on the heap. 

Want I want to see is everyone have have good housing , decent pay etc etc.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Want I want to see is everyone have have good housing , decent pay etc etc.



I assume we all agree on this.  Where we differ is in disliking someone based on the fact they have a cleaner and they didn't open their front door because they were in the shower; and not based on....  oh, I don't know, what they are like as a human being.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> You do not have a clue. I get around and about London and see a lot.



You have to try harder than this.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I assume we all agree on this.  Where we differ is in disliking someone based on the fact they have a cleaner and they didn't open their front door because they were in the shower; and not based on....  oh, I don't know, what they are like as a human being.



Not having this false humanism.

I do not see the reason in the 21st century for people to have servants.

Especially on the cheap.


----------



## stockwelljonny (Aug 28, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fuck her because she has a cleaner?!! You just sound angry at anyone who has done 'better' in life than you. That's a terrible way to live your life.


No, think you're looking for a reason to take offence, was a wider point being made I think.


----------



## Manter (Aug 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Not having this false humanism.
> 
> I do not see the reason in the 21st century for people to have servants.
> 
> Especially on the cheap.


Earlier today my front door was opened by my 23 year old Spanish nanny, as I was on a conference call. 

So what does that make me? 

You know nothing about this woman in the shower, you don't know what the Filipina's role is, what her pay is, what is going on behind that front door. She could be a nanny, housekeeper, cleaner, caterer, osteopath, nurse...... Come on, you're usually better than this, you don't sink to random mouth-frothing and judgement about stuff you know nothing about. There is a lot wrong with London, I agree with you on a number of points, but this crap is beneath you.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

leanderman said:


> You have to try harder than this.



How much harder?

I have been reading this week Istvan Meszaros book "Marx's Theory of Alienation"

Goes into how work in Capitalist society ( among other things) is alienated from ourselves. Labour in Capitalism is not a free enjoyment of ones potentialities but is a commodity alienated from oneself to be sold. In simple terms the working class work in order to exist.

So in the case of an cleaner / maid from abroad her work is not something that she has choice over. Its her labour she sells. Her choices in this Capitalist world are constrained.

Do I think that this migrant worker really wants to live abroad in order to earn a living? No.

The underlying problem is that in a world where there is enough to go around its unequally distributed.

There is enough technology and social wealth for no one to need be a servant for others.

Meszaros also make moral case for this. Which I have not read all of yet. That a society can be judged on how much freedom it can give for people to pursue there own ends rather than serve the needs of others. How people can relate to each other as equals rather than relationships of employer employee etc.

And btw there is argument put forward by Meszaros that its also the better off ( employer, capitalist) whose human potential is stunted in a society based on commodified buying and selling. If I get him right.

So I truly human society is one with no masters or servants, no employers or employed.

Anyway may have some of this wrong as its not an easy read and thinking aloud here.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

Manter said:


> Earlier today my front door was opened by my 23 year old Spanish nanny, as I was on a conference call.
> 
> So what does that make me?
> 
> You know nothing about this woman in the shower, you don't know what the Filipina's role is, what her pay is, what is going on behind that front door. She could be a nanny, housekeeper, cleaner, caterer, osteopath, nurse...... Come on, you're usually better than this, you don't sink to random mouth-frothing and judgement about stuff you know nothing about. There is a lot wrong with London, I agree with you on a number of points, but this crap is beneath you.



Actually its not crap. This is what I really think. Spam manages to wind me up enough to froth at the mouth. If you don’t like it well there is not much I can do about that.

For my more measured approach see post above #3826


----------



## Ms T (Aug 28, 2015)

France is great if you're middle aged and have already got a job. Why do you think there are more than half a million French people living in London?  My experience of living and visiting France is that it is not very welcoming to immigrants who aren't white. It's not some socialist utopia.


----------



## Manter (Aug 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Actually its not crap. This is what I really think. If you don’t like it well there is not much I can do about that.
> 
> For my more measured approach see post above #3826
> 
> I take my "mouth frothing" at what I see around me and seek out some explanation of why things are the way they are.


I've said before that this is exactly what the ruling class want- get everyone to turn on each other and then they can get on with selling the country undisturbed. 

You know nothing about either the woman you were trying to deliver to nor the woman that answered the door. Not all Filipinas are underpaid and exploited, victims of circumstance, and sexist assumptions about whose job it is to clean and terminology like lady meant to belittle the person you are referring to doesn't help anyone, and certainly doesn't help explain how the world is.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

Manter said:


> I've said before that this is exactly what the ruling class want- get everyone to turn on each other and then they can get on with selling the country undisturbed.
> 
> You know nothing about either the woman you were trying to deliver to nor the woman that answered the door. Not all Filipinas are underpaid and exploited, victims of circumstance, and sexist assumptions about whose job it is to clean and terminology like lady meant to belittle the person you are referring to doesn't help anyone, and certainly doesn't help explain how the world is.




Read my post #3826 yet?

Its an intrinsically exploitative relationship when one group of people have to go to another part of the world in order to earn a living as servants for others.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2015)

Ms T said:


> France is great if you're middle aged and have already got a job. Why do you think there are more than half a million French people living in London?  My experience of living and visiting France is that it is not very welcoming to immigrants who aren't white. It's not some socialist utopia.



Neither is this country welcoming to immigrants last time I looked at the news about Calais.


----------



## Manter (Aug 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Read my post #3826 yet?
> 
> Its an intrinsically exploitative relationship when one group of people have to go to another part of the world in order to earn a living as servants for others.


Of course I've read it, and I don't disagree with you about global financial inequalities, per se. But assuming that a woman ought to be cleaning the house, that another woman answering the door must be some sort of exploited serf because she is Filipina..... Ffs. it does both them and you a disservice. 

There are real issues around global income disparity and income disparities within London that need to be debated in an intelligent way- they are complex and difficult. Random 'I hate the middle classes and I am going to leap to a bunch of conclusions based on my own prejudice and no evidence' doesn't help that conversation. 

This thread is a clusterfuck- people have moved into more extreme positions as a result of the discussion. Stupid and unhelpful.


----------



## Manter (Aug 28, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Neither is this country welcoming to immigrants last time I looked at the news about Calais.


And how much do you know about what British people of all ages, classes, backgrounds and incomes are doing to help? Look up 'people to people solidarity action from the U.K.', look at how many wonderful people are doing everything they can to help, both politically and with basic humanitarian support- despite their differences, not standing poking at other people's lifestyles and judging- rolling their sleeves up and choosing every day to work together and make a difference.  That makes me have faith in human beings, that keeps me going, not this petty purile sniping about what beer costs, and who cleans what.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Manter said:


> And how much do you know about what British people of all ages, classes, backgrounds and incomes are doing to help? Look up 'people to people solidarity action from the U.K.', look at how many wonderful people are doing everything they can to help, both politically and with basic humanitarian support- despite their differences, not standing poking at other people's lifestyles and judging- rolling their sleeves up and choosing every day to work together and make a difference.  That makes me have faith in human beings, that keeps me going, not this petty purile sniping about what beer costs, and who cleans what.



I do know this. 

However given a lot of media coverage of immigrants and rise of UKIP my point is that I dont think that this country is any less anti immigrant than France. 

And are you going to say the above to Ms T?

She is making assumptions about French and immigrants. I know French people who are not anti immigrant. Also heard that some ordinary French are helping those as Calais. 

No I guess you wont be having a go at Mrs T.


----------



## Manter (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I do know this.
> 
> However given a lot of media coverage of immigrants and rise of UKIP my point is that I dont think that this country is any less anti immigrant than France.
> 
> ...


Why would I have a go at Ms T? She and I have discussed this at length many times, in real life.

Why do you want me to have a go at her? Is this what this forum has been reduced to?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Manter said:


> Of course I've read it, and I don't disagree with you about global financial inequalities, per se. But assuming that a woman ought to be cleaning the house, that another woman answering the door must be some sort of exploited serf because she is Filipina..... Ffs. it does both them and you a disservice.
> 
> There are real issues around global income disparity and income disparities within London that need to be debated in an intelligent way- they are complex and difficult. Random 'I hate the middle classes and I am going to leap to a bunch of conclusions based on my own prejudice and no evidence' doesn't help that conversation.
> 
> This thread is a clusterfuck- people have moved into more extreme positions as a result of the discussion. Stupid and unhelpful.



I base my opinions on my personal experiences and also reading up. 

So I am not basing my opinions on prejudice. I am basing them on my knowledge of what I see in London plus my reading. 

As I said I used one anecdote - from what I see- its not whole basis of how I see things. 

You may not like the conclusions I come to or the way that I interpret my experiences. I refute your suggestion that they are "random".


----------



## Manter (Aug 29, 2015)

I am staggered by the level of ignorance and prejudice on display in this thread- from pretty much everyone who has contributed. I can see why so many people have it on ignore.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Manter said:


> Why would I have a go at Ms T? She and I have discussed this at length many times, in real life.
> 
> Why do you want me to have a go at her? Is this what this forum has been reduced to?



I do not want you to have a go at her. 

In fact I didnt either. I merely pointed out that this country is not always friendly to immigrants as well. 

The point I was making was that you were criticising me for making generalisations but did not take same line with her post.


----------



## Manter (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I base my opinions on my personal experiences and also reading up.
> 
> So I am not basing my opinions on prejudice. I am basing them on my knowledge of what I see in London plus my reading.
> 
> ...


The middle classes fuck them, I believe we're your words. Based on a completely unfounded assumption made about a woman that answers the door? How do you know what she earns? What she does? Are you making some pretty unpleasant assumptions about Filipino women?  There are real issues to be debated, but, I say again, that sort of anecdata doesn't help.


----------



## Manter (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I do not want you to have a go at her.
> 
> In fact I didnt either. I merely pointed out that this country is not always friendly to immigrants as well.
> 
> The point I was making was that you were criticising me for making generalisations but did not take same line with her post.


Maybe I hadn't got to it yet. But as soon as you start inferring that I am giving her an easy ride- why? Because she is also a woman? Because she also travels a lot? Because you assume she and I are both part of the despised middle classes - I lose all interest.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Manter said:


> Maybe I hadn't got to it yet. But as soon as you start inferring that I am giving her an easy ride- why? Because she is also a woman? Because she also travels a lot? Because you assume she and I are both part of the despised middle classes - I lose all interest.



Not the point I was making. Nor was I inferring anything else from her post.


----------



## Manter (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Not the point I was making. Nor was I inferring anything else from her post.


So why did you ask was I going to be making the same point and say you guessed I wasn't?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Manter said:


> So why did you ask was I going to be making the same point and say you guessed I wasn't?



What I actually thought that you are so keen to have a go at me that you did not even see that in her post.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Manter said:


> Because you assume she and I are both part of the despised middle classes - I lose all interest.



I have looked back at my posts and I have not had personal go at either you or Mrs T. 

So this comment is unwarranted. 

Nor in my time posting here have I had a go at you personally about class. 

You don’t like my opinions. Fine that’s up to you. But don’t try to imply that I have being doing personal attacks on you.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> How much harder?
> 
> I have been reading this week Istvan Meszaros book "Marx's Theory of Alienation"
> 
> ...


Meanwhile, back in the real world ....


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Meanwhile, back in the real world ....



reading theory is nicer place to be sometimes.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fuck her because she has a cleaner?!! You just sound angry at anyone who has done 'better' in life than you. That's a terrible way to live your life.



better?

grow up


----------



## Ms T (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Neither is this country welcoming to immigrants last time I looked at the news about Calais.


I didn't say it was.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> better?
> 
> grow up



Yeah, poor choice. I couldn't think of a better word. Still can't


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Yeah, poor choice. I couldn't think of a better word. Still can't



Perhaps because it was a stupid comment in general and there is not a sensible way of saying it.

As an aside, I've known people with cleaners who can hardly afford them. It's not because they've done better, it's because they are fucking lazy.

My ex kept on about getting a cleaner. Quite frankly I was appalled by the idea, especially given her politics. 

People are easily prey to cheap options when it supports their bone idleness. Ignorance don't cost much.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Perhaps because it was a stupid comment in general and there is not a sensible way of saying it.
> 
> As an aside, I've known people with cleaners who can hardly afford them. It's not because they've done better, it's because they are fucking lazy.
> 
> ...



Yep. Have several friends who can't afford to go on holiday or go out much, have part-time jobs etc but spend £30+ a week on a cleaner. £1,500+ a year. 

Different people have different priorities.

Same goes for decorating.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Same goes for decorating.



Yeah...but decorating is a skilled job, and I'd rather pay someone to do it properly, than balls it up and say 'I did that'.

I can clean the shit off my own bog pan. I can't wallpaper all that well....


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 29, 2015)

Who knew people would get so angry about cleaners


----------



## leanderman (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Yeah...but decorating is a skilled job, and I'd rather pay someone to do it properly, than balls it up and say 'I did that'.
> 
> I can clean the shit off my own bog pan. I can't wallpaper all that well....



Decorating is not that skilled. Preparation and patience. 

Wallpaper is a bit stressful.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Decorating is not that skilled. Preparation and patience.
> 
> Wallpaper is a bit stressful.



Currently facing four floors of hallway....including ceilings....all papered. top floor too high for to even reach.....

I'm getting an expert in for that...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Who knew people would get so angry about cleaners



Not been here long have you.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 29, 2015)

I suspect I have most of the culprits on ignore


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

There was one thread some years back where the cleaner issue was fought out fairly aggressivly...


----------



## leanderman (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Who knew people would get so angry about cleaners



It is a revealing subject. 

It was probably only five years ago - more than ten years after I arrived in London - that I realised that ordinary people were paying other people to clean their homes.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There was one thread some years back where the cleaner issue was fought out *fairly aggressivly*...




Normally I take everything said on urban with a pinch of salt, but I have no trouble believing that


----------



## Ms T (Aug 29, 2015)

Cleaning private homes is a lot better paid than most bar/restaurant work.  Like nearly double.


----------



## Winot (Aug 29, 2015)

Someone should set up a pop-up to train young people on how to clean houses.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 29, 2015)

This all makes me think of "Damn it, can't man have a biscuit"  (oblique QI reference)


----------



## Rushy (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Nor in my time posting here have I had a go at you personally about class.


Not sure that works to be honest. If someone had said fuck the working classes, would someone who identifies themselves as working class not be justified in taking it fairly personally?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 29, 2015)

Winot said:


> Someone should set up a pop-up to train young people on how to clean houses.


Cleaning internships.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 29, 2015)

Winot said:


> Someone should set up a pop-up to train young people on how to clean houses.



My Mum should run it! People used to practically beg her to work for them as a cleaner.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Ms T said:


> I didn't say it was.





> My experience of living and visiting France is that it is not very welcoming to immigrants who aren't white. It's not some socialist utopia.



I took as implying that you thought that this country was more welcoming to immigrants than France.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Not sure that works to be honest. If someone had said fuck the working classes, would someone who identifies themselves as working class not be justified in taking it fairly personally?



I forget that some here get so touchy on any comments about middle classes. The general banter I use offline touches a raw nerve here.  Its interesting to see.

I normally tone it down here but don’t always feel like it some days. Particularly on a Friday after a few drinks.


----------



## Winot (Aug 29, 2015)

Ah, #bantz.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I took as implying that you thought that this country was more welcoming to immigrants than France.



I think, generally speaking, immigrants are better integrated in Britain than France, which is a socially conservative country in my experience.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I forget that some here get so touchy on any comments about middle classes. The general banter I use offline touches a raw nerve here. Its interesting to see. I normally tone it down here but don’t always feel like it some days.



I don't think Manter is offended so much as annoyed by the lazy and deliberate ignorance which lurks behind such a broad sweeping statement.

If you find it is easier to get away with such "general banter" in real life than it is on here, you really need to consider whether your real life experience is as broad as you like others to believe it is.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I don't think Manter is offended so much as annoyed by the lazy and deliberate ignorance which lurks behind such a broad sweeping statement.
> 
> If you find it is easier to get away with such "general banter" in real life than it is on here, you really need to consider whether your real life experience is as broad as you like others to believe it is.



My life is broad enough to see how things work in this society. If my views on class offend posters here there then that’s how it is.

To say I am lazy or deliberately ignorant is rubbish and a personal insult. 

Something I did not do with Manter is give out personal insult. Yet its ok for you to hand it out to me. You should look at the way you post here.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 29, 2015)

Didn't Tony Blair say there are no classes any more? Don't you lot ever listen?


----------



## T & P (Aug 29, 2015)

My cleaner went to Pop last night and she thought it was great, though was not able to have more than a couple of drinks there due to the miserly wages I pay her, whereas she manages to stretch it to three at The Beehive.

She got to show off her football skills at the Adidas stage though, so all is well. Shame her 10-year-old son has this morning woken up a drug addict, after being made to stand near adults drinking beer, an experience that irrevocably warped his fragile little mind. Still, it won't matter much because he and all of us who've visited Pop will be dead within six months, as the containers were formerly used to carry spent nuclear fuel roads and have given everyone cancer.

Then again, radiation can cause some wonderful mutations on plants and vegetables, so I look forward to the giant marrows and exotic mutant flowers courtesy of Pop Brixton.

This thread full of win.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 29, 2015)

T & P said:


> My cleaner went to Pop last night and she thought it was great, though was not able to have more than a couple of drinks there due to the miserly wages I pay her, whereas she manages to stretch it to three at The Beehive.
> 
> She got to show off her football skills at the Adidas stage though, so all is well. Shame her 10-year-old son has this morning woken up a drug addict, after being made to stand near adults drinking beer, an experience that irrevocably warped his fragile little mind. Still, it won't matter much because he and all of us who've visited Pop will be dead within six months, as the containers were formerly used to carry spent nuclear fuel roads and have given everyone cancer.
> 
> ...


ah, such larks!


----------



## Rushy (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> My life is broad enough to see how things work in this society. If my views on class offend posters here there then that’s how it is.
> 
> To say I am lazy or deliberately ignorant is rubbish.


As I said, I don't think Manter has been offended by your comments so much as annoyed by the lazy generalisation and stereotyping.  And I'm sorry, but if you are constantly getting away with  "fuck the middle classes general banter" in real life without ever being pulled up on it, then you need to step out of the echo chamber. 

That said, I have found you to be very personable and far less polar in real life, so perhaps you don't speak as openly IRL as you think you do.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 29, 2015)

won't someone think of the poor poor people with cleaners, au pairs and nannies!!


----------



## ddraig (Aug 29, 2015)

Rushy said:


> As I said, I don't think Manter has been offended by your comments so much as annoyed by the lazy generalisation and stereotyping.  And I'm sorry, but if you are constantly getting away with  "fuck the middle classes general banter" in real life without ever being pulled up on it, then you need to step out of the echo chamber.
> 
> That said, I have found you to be very personable and far less polar in real life, so perhaps you don't speak as openly IRL as you think you do.


pretty good at handing down judgements on others aint ya!


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Rushy said:


> And I'm sorry, but if you are constantly getting away with  "fuck the middle classes general banter" in real life without ever being pulled up on it, then you need to step out of the echo chamber.



Its not an echo chamber.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

I often fuck the middle class.

They think I'm a nice bit of rough.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

ddraig said:


> won't someone think of the poor poor people with cleaners, au pairs and nannies!!



What you have got to understand is that the hard pressed middle classes are providing gainful employment for cleaners, au pairs and nannies and should be thanked for it.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 29, 2015)

Save it for the politics forum


----------



## editor (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Save it for the politics forum


Pop Brixton _is_ political, silly.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Save it for the politics forum



You could always start a thread there about how the middle classes are much misunderstood and see how it goes.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

The Middle Class Suffering at the Hands of Cleaners and Other Essays on The Social Agonies of Being in the Centre of the Class War.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 29, 2015)

I'd rather talk about how great Pop is here


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I'd rather talk about how great Pop is here



...and you do. Well done on seeing your intentions through.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its not an echo chamber.



Of course not, but it serves his argument to characterise it as such.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I often fuck the middle class.
> 
> They think I'm a nice bit of rough.



TBF so do the working class you fuck.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What you have got to understand is that the hard pressed middle classes are providing gainful employment for cleaners, au pairs and nannies and should be thanked for it.



We mustn't ever forget to display the correct degree of gratitude for the privilege of serving, and this doesn't just go for menial "service sector" jobs, it goes for any job where you're replaceable by another suitably-qualified (or unqualified) mook.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ...and you do. Well done on seeing your intentions through.



Have you DJ'd there yet?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Have you DJ'd there yet?



Nope

Why?


----------



## leanderman (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Nope
> 
> Why?



Because I am under the impression you are a DJ.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Because I am under the impression you are a DJ.



That is true on occassion.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Nope
> 
> Why?



Its a technique that regularly gets used here. If all else fails trying to show that one is a "hypocrite". So u have no right to say anything. Normally used against the Ed.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I'd rather talk about how great Pop is here



I sure they would love your pithy comments on the politics boards.


----------



## leanderman (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Its a technique that regularly gets used here. If all else fails trying to show that one is a "hypocrite". So u have no right to say anything. Normally used against the Ed.



True. But it's interesting to see whether people are serious about what they say.


----------



## editor (Aug 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> True. But it's interesting to see whether people are serious about what they say.


And you, of course, will be the sole arbiter of what's constitutes 'serious,' yes?

It's a shitty, cowardly, cheap tactic that inevitably gives the attacker a hugely unfair advantage because they can hide between urban's rules of anonymity while sniping and criticising me.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2015)

leanderman said:


> True. But it's interesting to see whether people are serious about what they say.



Thing is it only works one way. I for example have been criticized on this thread for not understanding the complexity of peoples positions and seeing peoples attitudes in terms of for and against.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I sure they would love your pithy comments on the politics boards.



He'd last about a minute.


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 29, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> An unsurprisingly dishonest interpretation of points people made.


here's another example of someone trying to undermine the validity of someone elses point of view by insinuating they are a liar but fwiw I am not sure an "interpretation" can be dishonest, incorrect possibly but  that is a matter of opinion.........anyway the posts I referred to seemed to be saying that hard graft serving others for a pittance can be character building and that those with the right stuff will do alright because the capitalist system is meant to work that way, that certainly wasn't the case when I worked in retail and I'm fairly certain that events in 2008 have not improved the situation


----------



## editor (Aug 29, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> here's another example of someone trying to undermine the validity of someone elses point of view by insinuating they are a liar but fwiw I am not sure an "interpretation" can be dishonest, incorrect possibly but  that is a matter of opinion.........anyway the posts I referred to seemed to be saying that hard graft serving others for a pittance can be character building and that those with the right stuff will do alright because the capitalist system is meant to work that way, that certainly wasn't the case when I worked in retail and I'm fairly certain that events in 2008 have not improved the situation


Loads of people at the bottom of the ladder work a whole lot harder than many of those at the top - I know people struggling to survive with two or more fucking hard jobs with long hours - and this notion that 'hard graft' will always be rewarded with improved prospects is naive, patronising and insulting.

It's a nasty Tory belief that by implication suggests that those in poverty simply aren't trying hard enough. In other words, they're poor because it's_ their fault_.


----------



## brixtonblade (Aug 29, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> He'd last about a minute.


I've never gone off the Brixton boards - I can't imagine they're bearable if they're worse than this one seeing as how much shit flys around here


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> the last few pages of posters making excuses for low paid work with few prospects has been depressing the ghost of Maggie even haunts urban 75


I was not making excuses for low paid work with few prospects. I was saying the service industry can be a great start to a career and can teach you other other skills to apply to other industries (service industry itself can also provide a good career for those who start at the bottom). You decided to ridiculously compare that to Thatcherism. You shouldn't fucking whine about being called dishonest when you decide to read points with a dishonest agenda. 


cuppa tee said:


> here's another example of someone trying to undermine the validity of someone elses point of view by insinuating they are a liar but fwiw I am not sure an "interpretation" can be dishonest, incorrect possibly but  that is a matter of opinion ....


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 30, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Save it for the politics forum



Since when did sub forums here become somehow detached from the wider and general political ethos of the forum/urban as a site?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Loads of people at the bottom of the ladder work a whole lot harder than many of those at the top - I know people struggling to survive with two or more fucking hard jobs with long hours - and this notion that 'hard graft' will always be rewarded with improved prospects is naive, patronising and insulting.
> 
> It's a nasty Tory belief that by implication suggests that those in poverty simply aren't trying hard enough. In other words, they're poor because it's_ their fault_.


But if you are at the bottom, what else have you got? What do you think people should do? Roll over and accept it? Fuck that defeatist shit. Work hard and put yourself in the best position you can. 

To dismiss people who are trying to make the best of themselves by working hard, as buying into a Tory belief, is more than patronising and insulting.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> What you have got to understand is that the hard pressed middle classes are providing gainful employment for cleaners, au pairs and nannies and should be thanked for it.


I was a cleaner at one stage to help me pay my way. If that made me working class providing for the middle class, who fucking cares? I'll never get my head around the British and their fascination with class.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> I've never gone off the Brixton boards - I can't imagine they're bearable if they're worse than this one seeing as how much shit flys around here



It's more that you're dealing with less opinion, and more fact, so if someone is rectally-ventriloquising, they get jumped on hard, especially if they're posting stuff like "John Major was a good Prime Minister" or the like.


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> But if you are at the bottom, what else have you got? What do you think people should do? Roll over and accept it? Fuck that defeatist shit. Work hard and put yourself in the best position you can.
> 
> To dismiss people who are trying to make the best of themselves by working hard, as buying into a Tory belief, is more than patronising and insulting.


That's not what I said, as well you know. Stop trying to find an argument where one does not exist.


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I was a cleaner at one stage to help me pay my way. If that made me working class providing for the middle class, who fucking cares? I'll never get my head around the British and their fascination with class.


But you're not working class are you? You took the cleaner job as an option, not as a necessity for survival, and that makes things very different.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> That's not what I said, as well you know. Stop trying to find an argument where one does not exist.


Hmmm I wonder


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> But you're not working class are you? You took the cleaner job as an option, not as a necessity for survival, and that makes things very different.


How do you know what my position was when I was a cleaner?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Since when did sub forums here become somehow detached from the wider and general political ethos of the forum/urban as a site?



Since a fair few of the posters on this sub-forum decided to have very little engagement with the rest of the board. As for the reasons why they decided that...well, read their posts!


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> How do you know what my position was when I was a cleaner?


I don't think you understand what working class means, to be honest. Doing a lower paid job for a little while does not make you working class, but feel free to elaborate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> But if you are at the bottom, what else have you got? What do you think people should do? Roll over and accept it? Fuck that defeatist shit. Work hard and put yourself in the best position you can.
> 
> To dismiss people who are trying to make the best of themselves by working hard, as buying into a Tory belief, is more than patronising and insulting.



As ever, you're being dishonest. editor has said nothing about people "rolling over and accepting it", you mendacious tosser, he's said that some people never progress onward from that. He also hasn't said that anyone is "buying into a Tory belief", he's said that *Tories* believe that if you don't "get on",it's your own fault.
So, you're either a liar, an idiot, or a combination of the two, and a total fucking plum, to boot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I was a cleaner at one stage to help me pay my way. If that made me working class providing for the middle class, who fucking cares? I'll never get my head around the British and their fascination with class.



It's not a fascination, it's a necessary tool for understanding why group A acts like cunts to group C, but with indifference to group B, etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> That's not what I said, as well you know. Stop trying to find an argument where one does not exist.



As The Damned once sang, "he's a liar, he never tell the truth".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't think you understand what working class means, to be honest. *Doing a lower paid job for a little while does not make you working class*, but feel free to elaborate.



Sorry, I'm not having that. Generations of middle class students have gotten away with *claiming to be working class* off the backs of a summer's manual work, or a part-time night job collecting glasses!


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't think you understand what working class means, to be honest. Doing a lower paid job for a little while does not make you working class, but feel free to elaborate.


How fucking patronising is that? You know fuck all about me


----------



## leanderman (Aug 30, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> Since when did sub forums here become somehow detached from the wider and general political ethos of the forum/urban as a site?



Are the Brixton boards meant to be limited to those of a certain general political ethos?


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not a fascination, it's a necessary tool for understanding why group A acts like cunts to group C, but with indifference to group B, etc.


Moreover, if you're at the bottom you'll often find that it's class that keeps you there.


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> How fucking patronising is that? You know fuck all about me


You claimed that doing a low paid job for a while "made you working class." 

Apart from the utter bollocks of such a statement, what class where you before and after, then?  Can you see how you've tied yourself in little knots here?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> Moreover, if you're at the bottom you'll often find that it's class that keeps you there.



Or rather the class that others *attribute to you*. I've banged on before about how I delight in people seeing and hearing me, and thinking "fat,working class and thick" (because for such people "working class" and "thick" *always* go together), then looking totally dismayed when I turn out to be fat, working class, but not thick.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> How fucking patronising is that? You know fuck all about me


Your posts speak volumes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> You claimed that doing a low paid job for a while "made you working class."
> 
> Apart from the utter bollocks of such a statement, what class where you before and after, then?  Can you see how you've tied yourself in little knots here?



He loves taking offence at anything that challenges his self-serving construct of how things are, does "Mr Retro".


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

editor said:


> You claimed that doing a low paid job for a while "made you working class"   Can you see how you've tied yourself in little knots here?


Except I didn't of course, I said "if" it made me working class who cares? 
Why are you so dishonest?


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Except I didn't of course, I said "if" it made me working class who cares?
> Why are you so dishonest?


Why do you think it might it might have made you working class? Why would you even suggest such a daft thing? Is that how you think class works?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I was a cleaner at one stage to help me pay my way. If that made me working class providing for the middle class, who fucking cares? I'll never get my head around the British and their fascination with class.



Did I say I was British? Or that’s how I define myself? You take offence easily posters here making assumptions about you. 

Also UK is place of different nations and regions. Where I grew up in Plymouth the town was divided by class. Thats how it was. 

If in this country, despite the best efforts of T Blair, class if is still seen as an issue that’s good imo. Its out in the open. Unlike say USA. Which is just as divided by class as here.


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 30, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I was not making excuses for low paid work with few prospects. I was saying the service industry can be a great start to a career and can teach you other other skills to apply to other industries (service industry itself can also provide a good career for those who start at the bottom). You decided to ridiculously compare that to Thatcherism. You shouldn't fucking whine about being called dishonest when you decide to read points with a dishonest agenda.


I'm sorry to have to come back to this but your comments about whining and dishonesty deserve a response. my personal experience of low paid work means my interpretation of your posts ( and those of certain others just so you know that I am not attacking you personally ) is that they resonate with the Thatcherite thinking that I encountered, the statistics posted by others show that my experience is not unique. that is not the same as calling you a Thatcherite, although your attempt to vilify and paint me as dishonest because our different experience suggests you may have been tainted by her philosophy my friend.....


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> If in this country, despite the best efforts of T Blair, class if is still seen as an issue that’s good imo. Its out in the open. Unlike say USA. Which is just as divided by class as here.



In fact the extremely unequal USA is _even more_ divided by class than the very unequal UK. 

I agree with you about class being an important issue. It annoys me when Britain is impugned (usually by Americans or Australians) for being "obsessed" with class, when it's actually a more healthy preoccupation than pretending it doesn't exist.

There was an Australian on these boards who called me a "fucktard" when I referred to the grotesque disadvantage the Aboriginal people are subjected to, informing me, "The Aboriginals are a race, not a class." 

If that's being "no worries" about class, I'd rather be "obsessed."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Did I say I was British? Or that’s how I define myself? You take offence easily posters here making assumptions about you.
> 
> Also UK is place of different nations and regions. Where I grew up in Plymouth the town was divided by class. Thats how it was.



It's how it *still is* in much of the south and the midlands (can't speak for points north), despite the forces of gentrification residualising the poor into smaller and smaller areas. Brixton itself has parts that are very neatly divided by class, as does every other London borough, and I'm not only talking about council estates here, but about neighbourhoods in areas that are even now "working class", despite the constant encroachment of the landlord dollar. 



> If in this country, despite the best efforts of T Blair, class if is still seen as an issue that’s good imo. Its out in the open. Unlike say USA. Which is just as divided by class as here.


But labours under the delusion that the more you earn, the more elevated your social class.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> In fact the extremely unequal USA is _even more_ divided by class than the very unequal UK.
> 
> I agree with you about class being an important issue. It annoys me when Britain is impugned (usually by Americans or Australians) for being "obsessed" with class, when it's actually a more healthy preoccupation than pretending it doesn't exist.
> 
> There was an Australian on these boards who called me a "fucktard" when I referred to the grotesque disadvantage the Aboriginal people are subjected to, informing me, "The Aboriginals are a race, not a class."



And yet some Aussies will claim that the current treatment of Aboriginal Australians isn't racist, while conceding that treatment in the distant past *was*racist. They really do wish to have their cake*and* eat it. Aboriginal Australians were of course the victims of classism, in that they were treated in a unitary manner as "matter out of place" - as "other" because of their non-compliance with "white" culture.



> If that's being "no worries" about class, I'd rather be "obsessed."



Same here.


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 30, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Are the Brixton boards meant to be limited to those of a certain general political ethos?


Not at all, which is why I didn't say that. Rather I was replying to...




			
				SpamMisery said:
			
		

> Save it for the politics forum


Well, actually, no. Politics and political analysis has always been a strong and inherent part of this place and just because some people don't want discussion framed in that manner then frankly tough. VP summed up my feelings a bit though.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Aboriginal Australians were of course the victims of classism, in that they were treated in a unitary manner as "matter out of place" - as "other" because of their non-compliance with "white" culture.



Heaven help them if they open a didgeridoo or wine importing business in Pop then!


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 30, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Heaven help them if they open a didgeridoo or wine importing business in Pop then!


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


>





Yourself 

Do I win now?


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 30, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Yourself
> 
> Do I win now?



Mi-AOW!

But seriously: if by "win", you mean represent grotesquely abused indigenous people in a crudely stereotypical way ("didgeridoo importing business"), then - yes - you truly are the victor.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Mi-AOW!
> 
> But seriously: if by "win", you mean represent grotesquely abused indigenous people in a crudely stereotypical way ("didgeridoo importing business"), then - yes - you truly are the victor.



No I've used one more  smiley face than you?

Are there any indigenous people with stalls in Pop Brixton? 

Would you like some indigenous people from wherever in Pop?

What would you call and how would you judge  indigenous businesses pop?

How do you think those indigenous (foreign) businesses impact on the indigenous folk of Brixton?


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> As ever, you're being dishonest. editor has said nothing about people "rolling over and accepting it", you mendacious tosser, he's said that some people never progress onward from that. He also hasn't said that anyone is "buying into a Tory belief", he's said that *Tories* believe that if you don't "get on",it's your own fault.
> So, you're either a liar, an idiot, or a combination of the two, and a total fucking plum, to boot.


Little less of the personal abuse, please.


----------



## T & P (Aug 30, 2015)

This thread has become an ugly mass of festering bile (and apparently exempt from the zero-tolerance policy about personal abuse that was now supposed to be in place on the Brixton forum) and it's poisoning the entire place. Perhaps it's time to close it.


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 30, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> No I've used one more  smiley face than you?
> 
> Are there any indigenous people with stalls in Pop Brixton?
> 
> ...



1. Your first "question" is not a question.
2. I've no idea.
3. Am indifferent. 
4. Since you raised the subject of a "didgeridoo importing business," maybe you - rather than I - should answer this one. 
5. Ditto immediately above. (N.B. Not sure how something "indigenous" can be "foreign.")


----------



## 299 old timer (Aug 30, 2015)

T & P said:


> This thread has become aun ugly mass of festering bile (and apparently exempt from the zero-tolerance policy about personal abuse that was now supposed to be in place on the Brixton forum) and it's poisoning the entire place. Perhaps it's time to close it.



If this thread is anything to go by it will only spill over on to any other thread that relates to anything similar that is irksome to those who like to argue a point for the sake of pedantry.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> 1. Your first "question" is not a question.
> 2. I've no idea.
> 3. Am indifferent.
> 4. Since you raised the subject of a "didgeridoo importing business," maybe you - rather than I - should answer this one.
> 5. Ditto immediately above. (N.B. Not sure how something "indigenous" can be "foreign.")


Sorry I was just trying to highlight  what a complete cockwomble any answer to this thread becomes


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 30, 2015)

just clocked this from pop


so a £2.80 breeze block painted black yours for just £25


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 30, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> just clocked this from pop
> 
> 
> so a £2.80 breeze block painted black yours for just £25




But if you dare to suggest the obvious, you're a "politically motivated" enemy of change.


----------



## 299 old timer (Aug 30, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> just clocked this from pop
> 
> 
> so a £2.80 breeze block painted black yours for just £25




Bargain! They have to try and recoup the £1.5 million somehow


----------



## ddraig (Aug 30, 2015)

wonder how much of that "trickles down"?!


----------



## Belushi (Aug 30, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> just clocked this from pop
> 
> 
> so a £2.80 breeze block painted black yours for just £25




Ooh, do they have any old rope to go with them?

_#sawyoucoming_


----------



## Belushi (Aug 30, 2015)

Featured in Elle Decoration no less http://www.elledecoration.co.uk/news/resident-opens-at-pop-brixton/


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)

ASS-EEEEEED


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 30, 2015)

T & P said:


> This thread has become aun ugly mass of festering bile (and apparently exempt from the zero-tolerance policy about personal abuse that was now supposed to be in place on the Brixton forum) and it's poisoning the entire place. Perhaps it's time to close it.



As someone who has been told on this thread that I am "ignorant" and attacked personally for putting up a post that was not personally directed at any individual poster I don’t think this thread should be taken down.

The "festering bile" I had directed at me I took on the chin.


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 30, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Featured in Elle Decoration no less http://www.elledecoration.co.uk/news/resident-opens-at-pop-brixton/



Anti-gentrifiers must feel a bit stupid now.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Heaven help them if they open a didgeridoo or wine importing business in Pop then!



Because, of course, an Aboriginal Australian and a white middle class New Zealander have comparable social capital with which to do so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> just clocked this from pop
> 
> 
> so a £2.80 breeze block painted black yours for just £25




Or, if you really want to jack up those profit margins, you buy a couple of block moulds, some black concrete dye, and "roll your own" for even less than £2.80.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As someone who has been told on this thread that I am "ignorant" and attacked personally for putting up a post that was not personally directed at any individual poster I don’t think this thread should be taken down.
> 
> The "festering bile" I had directed at me I took on the chin.



We need to bear in mind that some posters can't "take it on the chin"/deal with it with equanimity - that they're good at dishing it out, but not at taking it.

So it goes.


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because, of course, an Aboriginal Australian and a white middle class New Zealander have comparable social capital with which to do so.



I accept your  challenge



See 2x 

Sorry I forget you know everything about North and South NZ Island tribes and can judge the social status and providence of all people from a post on U75 

You sir I salute you!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> I accept your  challenge
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Rather than giving yourself a reach-around, and going off on a cod-anthropological sidebar, why not reply to what I posted?

By the way, that's "provenance" you're thinking of, not "providence", and if you'd read any of the biographical material on the woman in question, you'd have a better grip on her "provenance".


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 30, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Rather than giving yourself a reach-around, and going off on a cod-anthropological sidebar, why not reply to what I posted?
> 
> By the way, that's "provenance" you're thinking of, not "providence", and if you'd read any of the biographical material on the woman in question, you'd have a better grip on her "provenance".



You're funny


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> You're funny



You're ennui-inducing. We all have our crosses to bear.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 30, 2015)

Genuine question: How do you give yourself a reach around?


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 30, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Genuine question: How do you give yourself a reach around?


Huh?? In a bizarre thread this is the most bizarre post of them all 

(Not saying I'm not interested in the answer)

E2a: ignore me, you were replying to somebody I have on ignore. Lol. I'm 6 pints in, you'll have to excuse me.


----------



## isvicthere? (Aug 31, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Ooh, do they have any old rope to go with them?
> 
> _#sawyoucoming_



It really is reminiscent of this, isn't it?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 31, 2015)

yeah! but WHO are YOU to tell theses brilliant entrepreneurs where they can spend their _hard earned_ cash ?!? eh! eh!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2015)

ddraig said:


> yeah! but WHO are YOU to tell theses brilliant entrepreneurs where they can spend their _hard earned_ cash ?!? eh! eh!



It really is worse than Hitler on here sometimes.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 31, 2015)

leanderman said:


> True. But it's interesting to see whether people are serious about what they say.



So your question was some kind of test or measure?


----------



## editor (Aug 31, 2015)

Belushi said:


> Featured in Elle Decoration no less http://www.elledecoration.co.uk/news/resident-opens-at-pop-brixton/


£45 candle anyone?


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 31, 2015)

editor said:


> £45 candle anyone?


But it's.... deep, masculine and woody







How much for candle made from the soporific tears of U75 posters?


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2015)

Here's the description for the Open House weekend:



> *Pop Brixton*
> 53 Brixton Station Road, SW9 8PQ, London, England
> Pop Brixton showcases ad-hoc and quick-thinking design on a large scale, recycling and repurposing components so as to quickly provide a temporary platform for community events and fledgling businesses.



I hope the fledging Adidas and JD Sports manage to survive, but it's good that Pop is here to let such local businesses make a go of things.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 2, 2015)

CONTROL LONDON
DESTROY LONDON


----------



## ddraig (Sep 2, 2015)

Nathalield said:


> Do you know who i could contact, as my son won a pair of football boots and we have yet to be contacted!


no please or thanks!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2015)

Nathalield said:


> Do you know who i could contact, as my son won a pair of football boots and we have yet to be contacted!


I'd suggest going to pop and asking how to get in touch.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 4, 2015)

Reprezent, a young people's radio station, is moving to Pop today: Pop Brixton


----------



## T & P (Sep 4, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Reprezent, a young people's radio station, is moving to Pop today: Pop Brixton


 *impatiently waits for it to be turned to a Bad Thing and another dastardly move by Pop*


----------



## elmpp (Sep 9, 2015)

After 3 separate bans for insulting editor, I'd like to say I'm completely cured


----------



## Winot (Sep 9, 2015)

elmpp said:


> After 3 separate bans for insulting editor, I'd like to say I'm completely cured



Glad to hear you've won the victory over yourself.


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2015)

elmpp said:


> After 3 separate bans for insulting editor, I'd like to say I'm completely cured


If you've come back just to post up crap like this, the next ban will be permanent. Keep me out of your discussion please.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It was about 13,000 as I recall. But that included contributions toward maintenance.



Some detail quoted below:



> As part of this, a contribution was agreed with the Council for use of part of the Pope’s Road car park. This included £2,000 directly payable to the Council to cover the partial closure of the car park and £13,000 allocated to help fund the fit out of the Reprezent Radio studios in the event space at Pop Brixton.





> A further £10,000 of sports equipment will be provided to local schools and £5,000 in grants to local community leaders, who have been nominated for making a difference to their community through football.



Link to source: Pop Brixton

Looks like they had some pretty big names at the Adidas thing: Hererra, Juan Mata etc


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Some detail quoted below:
> 
> Link to source: Pop Brixton


I posted this up last month.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Some detail quoted below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My recollection of 13k was in reference to the Coors tent thingy.

Those names mean nothing to me .


----------



## leanderman (Sep 9, 2015)

John Terry?


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2015)

CONTROL LONDON
DESTROY LONDON
CHAOS MAKER
CONTROL TAKER


All important messages for Pop Brixton and the local community.

Hashtag: #keepitcommunity (no, really)


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> My recollection of 13k was in reference to the Coors tent thingy.
> 
> Those names mean nothing to me .



Ah right. Must be a popular number

[EDIT] You're response came immediately after tricky's mention of the FOI so I assumed you were responding to him


----------



## Rushy (Sep 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> John Terry?


The rugby player?


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 9, 2015)

editor said:


> I posted this up last month.



Guess there's no harm in saying it twice (perhaps for those on 'forced ignore' with you?)


----------



## Rushy (Sep 9, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Reprezent, a young people's radio station, is moving to Pop today: Pop Brixton


It's on t'internet too.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 9, 2015)

I have tuned in to their stream to see if it's any good. See how I fare with the young people's music.


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Guess there's no harm in saying it twice (perhaps for those on 'forced ignore' with you?)


That doesn't even make sense. No one was on forced ignore when I made that post. 

Oh well.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I have tuned in to their stream to see if it's any good. See how I fare with the young people's music.



I hope that you fare better than I did.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I have tuned in to their stream to see if it's any good. See how I fare with the young people's music.




I'm already annoyed about the spelling of Represent, I daren't risk listening to the young people's actual music


----------



## teuchter (Sep 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I hope that you fare better than I did.


I have youth on my side.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I have youth on my side.


You hide it well.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 9, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I'm already annoyed about the spelling of Represent, I daren't risk listening to the young people's actual music


Haha. I didn't want to admit that!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 9, 2015)

I had a listen....it was all quite tame...


----------



## teuchter (Sep 9, 2015)

Rushy said:


> You hide it well.


Wise beyond my years.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 9, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Wise beyond my years.


Indeed. And then you get a bit older, the illusion shatters and you realise that you only thought you were.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 9, 2015)

editor said:


> That doesn't even make sense. No one was on forced ignore when I made that post.
> 
> Oh well.



I wish I was on forced ignore


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I wish I was on forced ignore


Absolutely delighted to oblige seeing as you're apparently too weak-willed to do it yourself. I certainly won't be missing anything. Bye!


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 9, 2015)

The obvious flaw is that I need to unignore all content in order to see most of the threads (you being the OP)


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 9, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I'm already annoyed about the spelling of Represent, I daren't risk listening to the young people's actual music



Innit. Us old fogeys know that should be Reprazent.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> The obvious flaw is that I need to unignore all content in order to see most of the threads (you being the OP)



Perhaps you require an alternative forum/boards for your needs?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 9, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Some detail quoted below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And why do you think they had names there?

Adidas is big multinational with the cash to do this.

Do you really think Adidas are a benign organisation who really care about the community in Brixton?

They are competing with Nike big time. This is purely about advertising for them. Its completely cynical.

Its to my mind nauseating that big multinational like this can "give" a few thousand pounds to Lambeth. And Cllr Hopkins thinks its a great deal. Its not. 

You really do not understand this.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> And why do you think they had names there?
> 
> Adidas is big multinational with the cash to do this.
> 
> ...



Im sure we've had this conversation before, but here goes again..... Yes, I realise why Adidas think it worth being involved and no I don't think many major companies do this sort of thing because they really care. I've never said anything to the contrary. All I know is I'm wearing Adidas socks and Nike trainers


----------



## editor (Sep 9, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> And why do you think they had names there?
> 
> Adidas is big multinational with the cash to do this.
> 
> ...


This is the message that Adidas were trying to get over at Pop Brixton:

CONTROL LONDON
DESTROY LONDON
CHAOS MAKER
CONTROL TAKER

And don't forget that heartfelt hashtag: #keepitcommunity


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 9, 2015)

editor said:


> This is the message that Adidas were trying to get over at Pop Brixton:
> 
> CONTROL LONDON
> DESTROY LONDON
> ...



I go into offices and hear people making this stuff up. Advertising is a big industry and UK excels in it.

Cant help but think these are intelligent people and what a shite world it is that there creative talents are used to make profits for corporates like Adidas.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Perhaps you require an alternative forum/boards for your needs?



Are there other boards covering this area - and in such detail?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Are there other boards covering this area - and in such detail?



I wouldn't know...is there?

Perhaps this is somewhere more settling for those who are not comfortable with U75

The Brixton Forum


----------



## leanderman (Sep 10, 2015)

So the answer appears to be no. 

We are stuck with each other - until everyone is on force ignore.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> We are stuck with each other - until everyone is on force ignore.


It's a last measure, but I'll do whatever it takes to keep this forum a useful proposition for the majority of posters. The fact is that there's only a handful of people on forced ignore, and the forum is already _much_ the better for it.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I wouldn't know...is there?
> 
> Perhaps this is somewhere more settling for those who are not comfortable with U75
> 
> The Brixton Forum


All the posts on that forum are spam!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> We are stuck with each other



No one is stuck here. We can all choose to read and post or not.

If anyone really dislikes it, or feels threads started by particular posters are not for them, then they can choose to not engage, or leave, or find somethimg else to do with their time.

Spamface was moaning cos Ed starts a lots of threads that he wants to comment on, well, that's his choice to read them and comment on them and not put Ed on ignore. 

I don't care who joins in or dips out. It don't matter that much.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> All the posts on that forum are spam!



all 6 of em


----------



## T & P (Sep 10, 2015)

I regret I am unable to quote what I am referring to for reasons beyond my control, but I would contest the notion that forced ignoring is used as a last resort. In my case, and far, far, _far_ more blatantly in the case of discobastard, it was an act of censorship for nothing more than holding a contrary opinion.

As per the forum being much better for it since, it just has happened to be a quiet few days; though no doubt for some the definition of much better is simply when there is a far lesser chance of someone disagreeing with them.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

I've never used the ignore button on anyone. I know which posters annoy me, so (on the whole) I don't open the threads they start or don't read their posts (or read their posts and remind myself why I don't respond or engage with them).

I remember a few years back getting wound up by one poster on here and getting into daft tit for tat bullshit and it was fucking idiotic to be honest. Went on for too long...thankfully he got banned, and the matter resolved itself. Like acne.

If people have an opinion about something that is different to mine, I can either think 'I know that poster can have a sensible debate about this' or I can think 'this poster never wants to discuss their position and just shouts people down, so why bother trying'. On the internet it's easy for people to just keep coming, regardless of how ridiculous the discussion gets. A bit like a bonkers virtual bar brawl where the little chap keeps getting up after every knock down. Gets boring after a bit.

As for censorship and they way the boards are moderated.....well I believe there is a feedback forum somewhere, however, I've never had call to venture there so I've little experience of how succesful raising an issue might be.

Lastly, something that does annoy me on this thread is that anyone not agreeing with an individual(s) is considered to be on another poster's 'side'. I think 95% of the people on this thread have contributed an interesting perspective, both for and against Pop Brixton. I'm not on anyone's side. I'm certainly not on Pop's side, but that isn't to say I wish to see Pop become a massive failure either (so I'm not totally against it). For it to become a white elephant would be really unfortunate now it is here. It really isn't for me, but it still might have some benefits locally. I hope it does.

Pop does represent something negative for a lot of people. Maybe not people who post here, but a lot of long term local people do feel alienated by it. Some of that might be their issue and having nothing to do with economics/social status etc, they just might be a bit long in tooth and hate change, but for others it is about feeling excluded due to all the reasons that have been talked about here over and over. 

I also feel Pop has become the poster/whipping boy for a whole lot of other matters/issues that are affecting Brixton and the people of Brixton. It's probably not helpful because it detracts from those issues, but it is telling that people will come on here and enter petty and lengthy spats while ignoring the threads that relate to ongoing Brixton issues like the Arches and Cressingham Gardens. There's a lot of threads to go on and talk 'Brixton'. Maybe this one is exhausted, maybe it still has some legs.

Who knows?


----------



## leanderman (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> No one is stuck here. We can all choose to read and post or not.
> 
> If anyone really dislikes it, or feels threads started by particular posters are not for them, then they can choose to not engage, or leave, or find somethimg else to do with their time.
> 
> ...



I am simply suggesting that if you want to follow - and maybe comment on - Brixton matters there is little alternative to this place. That's the sense in which we are stuck here.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I am simply suggesting that if you want to follow - and maybe comment on - Brixton matters there is little alternative to this place. That's the sense in which we are stuck here.



Purgatory.


----------



## Winot (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Purgatory.



Hotel California


----------



## teuchter (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> As for censorship and they way the boards are moderated.....well I believe there is a feedback forum somewhere, however, I've never had call to venture there so I've little experience of how succesful raising an issue might be.




Generally, the feedback thread will just get closed or binned. So it's not really worth bothering with that route.

But I agree with most of your post. You're right about the tendency to try and put people on one "side" or the other.

Regarding the comment about ignoring other threads...just because people don't post on them doesn't mean they aren't reading them, or aren't interested. Speaking for myself at least, I'm more likely to post on threads where I disagree with what seems to be the prevailing opinion. There are lots that I read without commenting much. Also, there's just not time to follow every issue on every thread properly. There are some threads I happen to get involved with near the beginning, and then continue with. Others which I don't see until they are already tens of pages in and then I may dip in and out of them to keep broadly up to date with what's going on, but don't feel I've been involved fully enough to make comment.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

Has anyone seen this open "public square" as advertised by the architects? Call me old fashioned if you will, but my notion of a 'public square' is not something guarded by security people demanding ID and bag searches, nor is it a place where you're banned from bringing in food and drink.

And yes, that growing polytunnel concept sure has changed. It's a beer-o-tunnel now. LOL. 

Pop Brixton


----------



## 299 old timer (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> And yes, that growing polytunnel concept sure has changed. It's a beer-o-tunnel now. LOL.
> 
> Pop Brixton



Quibbling over a minor change in usage to get the thing through planning? Dear oh dear. It's the norm for planning in London - propose something that is ostensibly for the community (preferably with nice graphics and powerpoint presentations), get it passed through planning, and then do what you like! My sarcasm is aimed at that architectural turd the "walkie-talkie" which also offered a magical oasis of calm (open to the public) in the sky garden, and which changed to a few pot plants and entry by booking only. Ever feel you've been cheated? I see a similar approach, as you point out, here at pop.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Quibbling over a minor change in usage to get the thing through planning? Dear oh dear. It's the norm for planning in London - propose something that is ostensibly for the community (preferably with nice graphics and powerpoint presentations), get it passed through planning, and then do what you like! My sarcasm is aimed at that architectural turd the "walkie-talkie" which also offered a magical oasis of calm (open to the public) in the sky garden, and which changed to a few pot plants and entry by booking only. Ever feel you've been cheated? I see a similar approach, as you point out, here at pop.


Mind you, you have to laugh at the use of the ludicrous '#keepitcommunity' branding employed by  the 'takeover' of Pop Brixton by billion dollar mega-corporate Adidas. 

Yeah, that's real community, that is.  I mean, just look at the slogans they used:

CONTROL LONDON
DESTROY LONDON
CHAOS MAKER
CONTROL TAKER


----------



## T & P (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> As for censorship and they way the boards are moderated.....well I believe there is a feedback forum somewhere, however, I've never had call to venture there so I've little experience of how succesful raising an issue might be.


 Unfortunately you would have as much of a chance of any kind of action being taken as a Stamford Bridge groundsman reporting a problem with Mr Roman Abramovich to his line manager- for broadly the same reason. So not worth pursuing, really.

Pretty much agree with your post as a whole.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 10, 2015)

New bar on tap at Pop: Coldharbour Courage, which has helped local charities

Grab some Coldharbour Courage for the Country Show – the beer that gives back to the community


----------



## teuchter (Sep 10, 2015)

I note Coldharbour Courage has been rebranded to be less anarchist and more architectural.


----------



## brixtonblade (Sep 10, 2015)

I went last night. My niece was visiting and I thought she might like it.

I took my toddler along. We took in food and didn't have our bags searched.
It struck me as a big outside bar really. And it was OK as a bar. We bought a few bits of food which was quite nice but a bit pricey. Beer was fine but plastic glasses weren't great.
It's already a bit nippy at night, I didn't really want to stay for more than a quick one.
It was dead busy and most folks were pretty young

Thought it was all fairly ho hum really. As others have said, it'll be interesting to see what it's like in January, not just from a climate perspective but also to see what else gets built


----------



## T & P (Sep 10, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Quibbling over a minor change in usage to get the thing through planning? Dear oh dear. It's the norm for planning in London - propose something that is ostensibly for the community (preferably with nice graphics and powerpoint presentations), get it passed through planning, and then do what you like! My sarcasm is aimed at that architectural turd the "walkie-talkie" which also offered a magical oasis of calm (open to the public) in the sky garden, and which changed to a few pot plants and entry by booking only. Ever feel you've been cheated? I see a similar approach, as you point out, here at pop.


TBF the 'booking' part is not that bothersome since it is still free.

Regarding Pop, all this has been previously discussed but nobody seems to know what exactly happened to the original bid and why the Edible Bus Stop lot pulled out. It might be that that the project as originally envisaged wasn't viable, or it might be something else. Also worth remembering that the project is not supposed to have been completed yet (though whether it does or not is another matter). Ultimately I think the deviation from the original plans are not the crime against humanity some might have been led to believe, and that the end result is still an asset to the community, i.e. it has brought more benefits than problems, even if it is an imperfect product.

I don't even fucking like the place that much, but still find the amount of effort, time and energy some people are spending on monitoring, observing and vilifying the place from every possible angle at every possible opportunity simply baffling.


----------



## T & P (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> New bar on tap at Pop: Coldharbour Courage, which has helped local charities
> 
> Grab some Coldharbour Courage for the Country Show – the beer that gives back to the community


 £6 for two pints... Disgraceful rip-off.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> New bar on tap at Pop: Coldharbour Courage, which has helped local charities


I'm happy for any bar or outlet  to stock it - I really don't care who drinks the stuff, just so long as we can keep on giving away ALL the profits to local charities and campaign groups.

We're about to donate more cash to Loughborough Farm and the Cressingham Gardens campaign shortly, and we're talking to a few other local groups that night need a hand.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 10, 2015)

Eta to TP
What about the amount of energy you put in to defending it??? 

Might be difficult for you to grasp but some people give a shit and keeping on giving a shit doesn't really take that much time


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> It struck me as a big outside bar really.


That's pretty much what it is.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

T & P said:


> I don't even fucking like the place that much, but still find the amount of effort, time and energy some people are spending on monitoring, observing and vilifying the place from every possible angle at every possible opportunity simply baffling.



Fretting over people fretting is pretty baffling too.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 10, 2015)

T & P said:


> I don't even fucking like the place that much, but still find the amount of effort, time and energy some people are spending on monitoring, observing and vilifying the place from every possible angle at every possible opportunity simply baffling.



And - despite all this monitoring and observing - they never seem to notice, or bring our attention to, the potentially positive aspects of Pop such as the radio station and this community beer.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Fretting over people fretting is pretty baffling too.


And fretting over people fretting over fretting.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 10, 2015)

Or that every shop accepts £B. Or that Pop donated a load of sports equipment to local schools. Or the free CV and jobs workshops.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm happy for any bar or outlet  to stock it - I really don't care who drinks the stuff, just so long as we can keep on giving away ALL the profits to local charities and campaign groups.
> 
> We're about to donate more cash to Loughborough Farm and the Cressingham Gardens campaign shortly, and we're talking to a few other local groups that night need a hand.



Where else is this tasty and rather strong beer available on tap?


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Where else is this tasty and rather strong beer available on tap?


We've been hamstrung in the past by availability - the stuff always sells out fast - and we recently lost our main outlet (Kaff).

Bars like the Market House, the Ritzy, Lounge, Effra Social, Prince of Wales have all stocked it, and now that it looks like we're getting the supply sorted we hope to have it in a lot of other places soon. I'm not going into details but Kaff were very, very generous indeed with the deal they did for us, and that enabled us to donate a fair bit of cash to the Soup Kitchen. Subsequent sales rely on us selling a lot more to get the same kind of cash to give away.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

teuchter said:


> And fretting over people fretting over fretting.



I'm baffled...


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And - despite all this monitoring and observing - they never seem to notice, or bring our attention to, the potentially positive aspects of Pop such as the radio station and this community beer.


Who are "they" and why should they feel compelled to bring to your personal attention Adidas-sponsorship deals and beer sales?


----------



## brixtonblade (Sep 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Or that every shop accepts £B. Or that Pop donated a load of sports equipment to local schools. Or the free CV and jobs workshops.


I didn't know about the B£.  That's a good thing.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Or that every shop accepts £B. Or that Pop donated a load of sports equipment to local schools. Or the free CV and jobs workshops.



All those things have been discussed on this thread. It's not for any one person to highlight everything is it?


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> I didn't know about the B£.  That's a good thing.


It only is if people are using it in sufficient quantities. Which I suspect they're not.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Who are "they" and why should they feel compelled to bring to your personal attention Adidas-sponsorship deals and beer sales?



'They' being Pop's critics. 

This is not a public forum so nothing is for my 'personal attention'. 

There's no compulsion, but it's good to know that, for example, a community-backing beer is on tap.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> 'They' being Pop's critics.
> 
> This is not a public forum so nothing is for my 'personal attention'.
> 
> There's no compulsion, but it's good to know that, for example, a community-backing beer is on tap.


I would have been the first to tell you if I'd known the details. Which I do not. I can't think of any other pertinent details about Pop that have been failed to have been mentioned here.


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

Lots of full on bag searches going on right now.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Lots of full on bag searches going on right now.



It's becoming the case in loads of places now. I even have my DJ bagged searched when I'm working at Market House because Lambeth have some mad idea that all DJs carry guns in the record bags!!


----------



## editor (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It's becoming the case in loads of places now. I even have my DJ bagged searched when I'm working at Market House because Lambeth have some mad idea that all DJs carry guns in the record bags!!


That's probably a wise precaution as you never know when the crowd might turn against you.

Mind you, Market House is a club. Pop Brixton is supposed to be a "public square."


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Pop Brixton is supposed to be a "public square."



I think it's gone way beyond that....it's basically a club without a roof now.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 10, 2015)

This weekend Pop is hosting Skye Alexandra House to help support vulnerable young women within the care system with basic living skills.


----------



## Winot (Sep 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> This weekend Pop is hosting Skye Alexandra House to help support vulnerable young women within the care system with basic living skills.



Yeah, but what's the most that a bottle of beer costs?


----------



## deadringer (Sep 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It's becoming the case in loads of places now. I even have my DJ bagged searched when I'm working at Market House because Lambeth have some mad idea that all DJs carry guns in the record bags!!



You may not carry guns in your record bag but I sincerely hope you have a few bombs to drop!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2015)

Winot said:


> Yeah, but what's the most that a bottle of beer costs?



More than you're worth, that's for sure, you pissant.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 11, 2015)

Oooh VP! You were doing so well! I'm not angry, just a little disappointed


----------



## Ol Nick (Sep 11, 2015)

To be honest it had gone a bit quiet on this thread you total pair of fucking cunts.


----------



## elmpp (Sep 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> More than you're worth, that's for sure, you pissant.


If there's any moderation consistency, this is a ban


----------



## T & P (Sep 11, 2015)

elmpp said:


> If there's any moderation consistency, this is a ban


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 11, 2015)

elmpp said:


> If there's any moderation consistency, this is a ban


There Isn't - this is a VP reply to me a few pages back. 


ViolentPanda said:


> As ever, you're being dishonest. editor has said nothing about people "rolling over and accepting it", you mendacious tosser, he's said that some people never progress onward from that. He also hasn't said that anyone is "buying into a Tory belief", he's said that *Tories* believe that if you don't "get on",it's your own fault.
> So, you're either a liar, an idiot, or a combination of the two, and a total fucking plum, to boot.


Not the worst but not pleasant. Editor liked it. So there can be no consistency.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> There Isn't - this is a VP reply to me a few pages back.
> 
> Not the worst but not pleasant. Editor liked it. So there can be no consistency.


If you have an issue with any supposed "inconsistencies" with the moderating here (OMG! How DARE he not be 100% consistent to my exact personal liking. How DARE he like a post!), kindly take it to the feedback forum rather then trying to stir things up with a big fat stick here. Thanks.


----------



## elmpp (Sep 11, 2015)

Fucking shambles


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2015)

elmpp said:


> If there's any moderation consistency, this is a ban



If a post offends you, report it.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2015)

Can we stop all this tedious infighting please? If it carries on, I'll be forced put some posters on forced ignore with each other.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 11, 2015)

editor said:


> If you have an issue with any supposed "inconsistencies" with the moderating here (OMG! How DARE he not be 100% consistent to my exact personal liking. How DARE he like a post!), kindly take it to the feedback forum rather then trying to stir things up with a big fat stick here. Thanks.


As you know you have misrepresented what I said. If I take it to the feedback forum will it be closed? I can't be bothered if it will.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> As you know you have misrepresented what I said. If I take it to the feedback forum will it be closed? I can't be bothered if it will.


I'm sure all the mods will carefully examine the merits of your claims and decide what appropriate action - if any - will be taken. I certainly have no interest in wasting my time debating the merits of a post I liked in August.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 11, 2015)

I like the way you went and checked. It at least shows you care. 

Could you please put me and Violent Panda on mutual ignore? I have no wish to read Urbans very own Mr Gradgrinds infantile insults. It didn't work when I had him on ignore. As you won't censure him it is probably the best course of action.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Could you please put me and Violent Panda on mutual ignore? I have no wish to read Urbans very own Mr Gradgrinds infantile insults.


Then put him on ignore.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 11, 2015)

Jesus wept....it's like the Big Brother house on this thread...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 11, 2015)

I'll be Jade Goody...


----------



## ash (Sep 11, 2015)

Can I be Vanessa Feltz


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Then put him on ignore.


If only you'd censure me, like Mr Retro wants. 
Obviously, the only reason you're not doing so is to upset him! You really are a thoroughly dastardly chap, despite doing more for Brixton than most or all of your critics.
I hope you feel suitably chastised!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Jesus wept....it's like the Big Brother house on this thread...



Could be worse. Could be a thread about Pop Brixton.


----------



## Maharani (Sep 11, 2015)

Who will be nasty Nick I wonder...


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 11, 2015)

editor said:


> Then put him on ignore.





Mr Retro said:


> Could you please put me and Violent Panda on mutual ignore? I have no wish to read Urbans very own Mr Gradgrinds infantile insults. *It didn't work when I had him on ignore. As you won't censure him it is probably the best course of action*.



Please put us on mutual ignore. You have no hesitation doing it for little or no reason. Otherwise I will assume I am ok to reply to VP's posts in kind. Though it's very uncomfortable for me to insult anybody in the way he does (without censure).


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 12, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Or that every shop accepts £B. Or that Pop donated a load of sports equipment to local schools. Or the free CV and jobs workshops.



Pop donated sports equipment?

Do you mean Adidas?

In that case I thought we were agreed that was cynical advertising ploy by Adidas. Not a good thing.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 12, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Pop donated sports equipment?
> 
> Do you mean Adidas?
> 
> In that case I thought we were agreed that was cynical advertising ploy by Adidas. Not a good thing.



I don't know, the page won't load so I can't check. But there's nothing wrong with Adidas giving donations is there?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 12, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I don't know, the page won't load so I can't check. But there's nothing wrong with Adidas giving donations is there?



Your post #4004


> Im sure we've had this conversation before, but here goes again..... Yes, I realise why Adidas think it worth being involved and *no I don't think many major companies do this sort of thing because they really care*. I've never said anything to the contrary. All I know is I'm wearing Adidas socks and Nike trainers



I took this as you agreeing with me that this is cynical act by Adidas which is not a genuine interest in the local community but is about advertising there product.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 12, 2015)

I agree it is advertising for them (assuming everything is branded) but I am not cynical about it. And neither does that mean I have to disapprove of a large company when they donate to a good cause. It's like when countries donate to flood disasters etc abroad. Every box is stamped with 'UKAid' or 'USAID' because everyone wants to advertise their goodwill. That doesn't make it a bad thing.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 12, 2015)

T & P said:


> TBF the 'booking' part is not that bothersome since it is still free.
> 
> I don't even fucking like the place that much, but still find the amount of effort, time and energy some people are spending on monitoring, observing and vilifying the place from every possible angle at every possible opportunity simply baffling.



The "booking" was from what I read a bit of a surprise to the planning officers, who were under the impression that this was to be a public area. Thats the spin the developer put on it to get the crap design accepted. 

What surprises me on this thread is the amount of effort those who think its wonderful spend on here.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 12, 2015)

Is there actually _anyone_ on here who's said they think it's "wonderful"?


----------



## leanderman (Sep 12, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Pop donated sports equipment?
> 
> Do you mean Adidas?
> 
> In that case I thought we were agreed that was cynical advertising ploy by Adidas. Not a good thing.



Agreed. It's not a good thing. But neither is it a bad thing. 

Companies sponsor events all the time.

The key is whether they give enough in return for doing so and for reaping publicity. 

I don't know whether they have given sufficiently in this case. 

But I don't object to the donation of sports equipment that is branded because, in my experience, sports equipment is always branded.

ETA: They might have given cash instead, which would probably have been used to buy branded sporting equipment anyway.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 12, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> The "booking" was from what I read a bit of a surprise to the planning officers, who were under the impression that this was to be a public area. Thats the spin the developer put on it to get the crap design accepted.
> 
> What surprises me on this thread is the amount of effort those who think its wonderful spend on here.



See here's the thing, a lot of people who don't hate pop with a passion don't think it's wonderful either. Personally what I object to is the whole faux outrageous 'OMG two bottles of beer equalling a pint are being sold for £7.80', as if this is the only pint available and using it as a reason to prove 'the poor' are excluded from Pop


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2015)

deadringer said:


> See here's the thing, a lot of people who don't hate pop with a passion don't think it's wonderful either. Personally what I object to is the whole faux outrageous 'OMG two bottles of beer equalling a pint are being sold for £7.80', as if this is the only pint available and using it as a reason to prove 'the poor' are excluded from Pop


Pop is primarily there to serve one demographic and one demographic only. And yes, that does exclude an awful lot of people in the community, and sticking on the rare event that actually might appeal to more people won't change that.

And all that would be fine if Pop Brixton weren't getting this prime slice of lucrative land rent free under a a supposed community/green/grassroots/'green oasis' ethos.

CONTROL LONDON
DESTROY LONDON
CHAOS MAKER
CONTROL TAKER
ADIDAS TAKEOVER!


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> Pop is primarily there to serve one demographic and one demographic only. And yes, that does exclude an awful lot of people in the community, and sticking on the rare event that actually might appeal to more people won't change that.


This weekend Pop is hosting Skye Alexandra House to help vulnerable young women in the care system. Last week the radio station started up. They are quite different demographics wouldn't you agree?


----------



## teuchter (Sep 12, 2015)




----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 12, 2015)

It doesn't matter how many positive community focused things you post, you can't beat the bag searches argument. Fact.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> This weekend Pop is hosting Skye Alexandra House to help vulnerable young women in the care system. Last week the radio station started up. They are quite different demographics wouldn't you agree?


Indeed. And as I have patiently already pointed out, such events at Pop are sadly very rare indeed. 

For the majority of the time, the place is busy serving as Brixton's biggest pub, and catering to a very narrow demographic. And all happening on prime land given away free.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed. And as I have patiently already pointed out, such events at Pop are sadly very rare indeed.
> 
> For the majority of the time, the place is busy serving as Brixton's biggest pub, and catering to a very narrow demographic. And all happening on prime land given away free.


Will there be more events at the Urban75 approved Granville market? What exactly does "element of community led activities and schemes" mean?


----------



## teuchter (Sep 12, 2015)

Land has not been given away for free. Lie.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Will there be more events at the Urban75 approved Granville market? What exactly does "element of community led activities and schemes" mean?


If you're just going to make up stupid bollocks like 'urban75 approved' and start banging on about an entirely different venue, I'm just going to ignore you and your childish arguments. Bye.


----------



## superfly101 (Sep 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Will there be more events at the Urban75 approved Granville market? What exactly does "element of community led activities and schemes" mean?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> If you're just going to make up stupid bollocks like 'urban75 approved' and start banging on about an entirely different venue, I'm just going to ignore you and your childish arguments. Bye.


Rolfcopters 

You wouldn't put somebody abusing me on mutual ignore when I requested with good reason. I ask a pertinent question and you put me on ignore. Fun times. I love it


----------



## leanderman (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed. And as I have patiently already pointed out, such events at Pop are sadly very rare indeed.
> 
> For the majority of the time, the place is busy serving as Brixton's biggest pub, and catering to a very narrow demographic. And all happening on prime land given away free.



Not given away. 

It has been leased out on a medium term basis with the council taking half of any profits. 

This is a very different thing.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 12, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Not given away.
> 
> It has been leased out on a medium term basis with the council taking half of any profits.
> 
> This is a very different thing.


Surely editor hasn't dishonestly represented something . I won't have it!


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Surely editor hasn't dishonestly represented something . I won't have it!



Wow, you are really iconoclastic, sticking it to "The urban 75 Man"! 

It's like Bob Dylan going electric all over again.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 12, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Wow, you are really iconoclastic, sticking it to "The urban 75 Man"!
> 
> It's like Bob Dylan going electric all over again.


That just makes no sense


----------



## superfly101 (Sep 12, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> It's like Bob Dylan going electric all over again.





Mr Retro said:


> That just makes no sense



It does!

Watch  *No Direction Home: Bob Dylan*


----------



## T & P (Sep 12, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Wow, you are really iconoclastic, sticking it to "The urban 75 Man"!
> 
> It's like Bob Dylan going electric all over again.


So you think that pointing out that a specific fact is wrong and inaccurate is  nothing but a sort of rebellion/ campaign against Editor?

Should we just ignore and let be any inaccurate facts we might notice in the future, or does it depend on who posted them?


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 12, 2015)

T & P said:


> So you think that pointing out that a specific fact is wrong and inaccurate is  nothing but a sort of rebellion/ campaign against Editor?
> 
> Should we just ignore and let be any inaccurate facts we might notice in the future, or does it depend on who posted them?



A fact cannot be "wrong" or "inaccurate." Something wrong or inaccurate is the_ opposite _of a fact.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 12, 2015)

look at yourselves for fucks sake!


----------



## leanderman (Sep 12, 2015)

I am surprised anyone can follow what is going on with so much ignoring and forced ignoring


----------



## han (Sep 12, 2015)

I must say, I'm pretty pooped with all this Pop stuff.


----------



## T & P (Sep 12, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> A fact cannot be "wrong" or "inaccurate." Something wrong or inaccurate is the_ opposite _of a fact.


Way to avoid the question. A claim, then.


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 12, 2015)

T & P said:


> Way to avoid the question. A claim, then.



I think on this thread we're descending into "Life of Brian" territory. 

Simply put: Pop Brixton is a wankers' place, full of wankers. 

End of.


----------



## superfly101 (Sep 12, 2015)




----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Rolfcopters
> 
> You wouldn't put somebody abusing me on mutual ignore when I requested with good reason. I ask a pertinent question and you put me on ignore. Fun times. I love it


You seem to think I'm under some personal obligation to obey your commands . You're very much mistaken


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 12, 2015)

Anyone go to the free sumochief gig at Pop last night?


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2015)

I thought all public squares were free entry.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 12, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Anyone go to the free sumochief gig at Pop last night?



Scared to go back after a quick recce Thursday lunchtime showed the people there have got even younger somehow. Distressing.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 12, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Scared to go back after a quick recce Thursday lunchtime showed the people there have got even younger somehow. Distressing.



Maybe this will be more your thing? Local artists are displaying their work at a meet and greet type event at Pop on 23rd Sept during the day. The gallery features lots of local artists and focuses on Brixton's heritage and culture. There's a free seminar and tour hosted by Squire and Partners. Evelyn Grace Academy seem to be involved.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought all public squares were free entry.



I thought we were on forced ignore? I have to unignore all content to see this thread as you're the OP, what's your excuse?


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> You seem to think I'm under some personal obligation to obey your commands . You're very much mistaken


I didn't command anything, my exact request was:

"Could you please put me and Violent Panda on mutual ignore?" 

How can that be possibly construed as a command?


----------



## soupdragon (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought all public squares were free entry.


Pops (Privately Owned Public Space) Brixton
The privatisation of cities' public spaces is escalating. It is time to take a stand


----------



## Winot (Sep 12, 2015)

soupdragon said:


> Pops (Privately Owned Public Space) Brixton
> The privatisation of cities' public spaces is escalating. It is time to take a stand



Article sponsored by the Rockefeller Foundation.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 12, 2015)

Winot said:


> Article sponsored by the Rockefeller Foundation.



They've funded some really good work over the years.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> How can that be possibly construed as a command?


Because you haven't stopped whining since that I didn't  do as you requested.


----------



## Winot (Sep 12, 2015)

Belushi said:


> They've funded some really good work over the years.



I'm sure they have - I was just struck by the juxtaposition.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 12, 2015)

editor said:


> Because you haven't stopped whining since that I didn't  do as you requested.


Huh? Genuinely what the fuck? 

I thought you were putting me on ignore by the way? While your doing it, will you please put me and Mr Gradgrind on mutual ignore?


----------



## discobastard (Sep 12, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Huh? Genuinely what the fuck?
> 
> I thought you were putting me on ignore by the way? While your doing it, will you please put me and Mr Gradgrind on mutual ignore?



Ignore doesn't really work.  I'm currently on forced mutual ignore with editor for expressing a contrary but (what I feel to be a) reasonable opinion, but it doesn't work on Tapatalk mobile.  So while I mainly see gibberish on a desktop, it's actually still all there on my phone.  And you can see posts from people you ignore if they are in the 'New posts' sidebar.

The whole thing is all a bit silly really - just don't let it get to you.  I have a life outside of here and so I'm rather zen about it all.  I even shook hands with editor last night (waves at editor - we should have had a proper conversation).

The forum 'rules' are the forum 'rules' and everybody gets brutally misquoted and has their words subject to hyper-pedantry - I've just accepted them, but it won't stop me putting forward an opinion.  And if somebody takes exception to what I say who has influence on the board and decides they want to censor me then basically 'whatever'.  Says more about the board and how it's managed than it does about me.  I reckon that IRL one would get on with certain posters better than they do on here.

'The medium is the message'. 

The medium is the message - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 13, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Simply put: Pop Brixton is a wankers' place, full of wankers.
> 
> End of.


Except of course it isn't. Lazy stereotyping.


----------



## T & P (Sep 13, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Except of course it isn't. Lazy stereotyping.


But at least such comment served them to avoid (again) answering the question I had asked.


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 13, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Except of course it isn't. Lazy stereotyping.



Ah yes! The famous "wanker" stereotype.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 13, 2015)

editor said:


> Pop is primarily there to serve one demographic and one demographic only. And yes, that does exclude an awful lot of people in the community, and sticking on the rare event that actually might appeal to more people won't change that.
> 
> And all that would be fine if Pop Brixton weren't getting this prime slice of lucrative land rent free under a a supposed community/green/grassroots/'green oasis' ethos.
> 
> ...




Do you mean the demographic of people that leave their homes and go out for food and or drinks? Because that's actually a pretty large demographic.

And for someone so against the Addidas branding, you for some strange reason keep repeating their slogan? Which makes zero sense to me. The repeating, or the slogan, lol


----------



## ddraig (Sep 13, 2015)

0/10 pathetic, lol


----------



## editor (Sep 13, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Do you mean the demographic of people that leave their homes and go out for food and or drinks? Because that's actually a pretty large demographic.


With a statement as inane and as ridiculous as that, I can only assume that you're trolling, so I'll leave you to it.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 13, 2015)

.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 13, 2015)

editor said:


> With a statement as inane and as ridiculous as that, I can only assume that you're trolling, so I'll leave you to it.




Certainly not trolling, maybe I didnt come across very clear. The point I was trying to make is that anyone who has the cash to go out for a few drinks, or go out for a Chinese or Indian, can go to Pop, which makes it available to quite a large demographic, and not a narrow one as claimed by yourself.


----------



## editor (Sep 13, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Certainly not trolling, maybe I didnt come across very clear. The point I was trying to make is that anyone who has the cash to go out for a few drinks, or go out for a Chinese or Indian, can go to Pop, which makes it available to quite a large demographic, and not a narrow one as claimed by yourself.


You don't think the pumping loud music, the clientèle and the cool styling has_ any influence at all_ on who the place may be aimed at?

Pop is clearly aimed a certain demographic and it's a comparatively narrow one. Not everyone wants to eat amongst a "constant buzz of creativity" with a "constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere."


----------



## superfly101 (Sep 13, 2015)




----------



## Rushy (Sep 13, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Land has not been given away for free. Lie.


As has been patiently pointed out. Time after time.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 13, 2015)

My 75yo mum is visiting this week. Maybe I will take her to Pop for a G&T and report back on her assessment. 

Although, maybe the creative buzz and exciting energy will be too much to her. So before going I'll ask "now then, seeing as you're just a little old lady I have to warn you that there will be young people there, there will be modern music playing and there will be a creative buzz all over the shop - don't you think these kinds of things will be terrifying and repellent for someone in your demographic? "

I'm sure that expressing my considerate thoughts and concerns will go down well.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 13, 2015)

deadringer said:


> See here's the thing, a lot of people who don't hate pop with a passion don't think it's wonderful either. Personally what I object to is the whole faux outrageous 'OMG two bottles of beer equalling a pint are being sold for £7.80', as if this is the only pint available and using it as a reason to prove 'the poor' are excluded from Pop



Thing is Ive had a busy weekend - was at the march on Saturday supporting refugees. So I have not had time to be on Urban for a couple of days.

My point in my previous post was and still is that those who support Pop spend a lot of time on this thread arguing about it. Includes those who appear to insist they don’t think its wonderful. Though this is changing category.

Its not the likes of me who keep this thread active.

I have a lot of time for U75. Sometimes it surprises me the amount of time some posters who slag it off spend on here. Life is short there is not time to do everything. If some posters think Ed and Urban is so shite why bother to come here to argue?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 13, 2015)

Talking about the march yesterday. Corbyn turned up and the parliament sq went wild. 

Lambeth Labour  right wing Blairite candidate Kendell lost badly

It would be good now Corbyn is running the show the New Labour bollox about Pop and Coop Council will stop. 



> This is a fantastic example where the public, private and community sectors have come together to create something that will allow local businesses to flourish and provide maximum benefit to Brixton. It’s difficult to put a price on social value but we will test and develop for the lifetime of POP so we can ensure that future developments live these ideals



I live in hope.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 13, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Land has not been given away for free. Lie.



This is a "meanwhile" use and as at other sites Pop are not paying for leasing the land off the Council at market rate. 

The profit share is a separate issue. Its related to the costs of setting up and leasing out the units of the Pop project. If there is money left over as profit then this will be shared. That remains to be seen.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 13, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Agreed. It's not a good thing. But neither is it a bad thing.
> 
> Companies sponsor events all the time.
> 
> ...



My argument with Spam was more about the nature of how big business work. When I say cynical what I mean is that large outfits like Adidas are amoral. This is not being "anti Business" its how it works under capitalism. 

Big business do not do anything because they think its the right thing to do. They neither go out of there way to make life worse.

The act in the pursuit of profit. If donating sport equipment is good for there PR and increases profits they will donate. Its not about improving the lot of society.

The advertising campaign of which Pop was a part of will be analysed by Adidas to see if it increases sales. If it hasn’t they will not do it again.

Its also that I think the balance between publicity and giving is in favour of Adidas and not local community. So its not something Council/ Pop should have done.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 13, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thing is Ive had a busy weekend - was at the march on Saturday supporting refugees. So I have not had time to be on Urban for a couple of days.
> 
> My point in my previous post was and still is that those who support Pop spend a lot of time on this thread arguing about it. Includes those who appear to insist they don’t think its wonderful. Though this is changing category.
> 
> Its not the likes of me who keep this thread active.


Eh?

You have recently leapt up the ranks to have the third highest post count on this thread (I'm second, most of that having been clocked up in the first half of the discussion).

A quick look at the top 3 posters who I think you would agree fall into the "do not support" Pop category shows they have jointly made 1270 posts on the thread. The top 3 "in defence of" have made little more than half that amount at 678. So when you point out that" those who support pop seem to spend a lot of time on this thread arguing about it", I'm not sure what your point is?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 13, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Eh?
> 
> You have recently leapt up the ranks to have the third highest post count on this thread (I'm second, most of that having been clocked up in the first half of the discussion).
> 
> A quick look at the top 3 posters who I think you would agree fall into the "do not support" Pop category shows they have jointly made 1270 posts on the thread. The top 3 "in defence of" have made little more than half that amount at 678. So when you point out that" those who support pop seem to spend a lot of time on this thread arguing about it", I'm not sure what your point is?



The point was in the last sentence of the post.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 14, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Thing is Ive had a busy weekend - was at the march on Saturday supporting refugees. So I have not had time to be on Urban for a couple of days.


I find somebody who would say this fascinating. Why would you not just say you were too busy to post? 

“How different would people act if they couldn't show off on social media? Would they still do it?” 
― Donna Lynn Hope


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 14, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> “How different would people act if they couldn't show off on social media? Would they still do it?”
> ― Donna Lynn Hope



Actually Im going to say personal digs at me isnt going to work.

Good try.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Eh?
> 
> You have recently leapt up the ranks to have the third highest post count on this thread (I'm second, most of that having been clocked up in the first half of the discussion).
> 
> A quick look at the top 3 posters who I think you would agree fall into the "do not support" Pop category shows they have jointly made 1270 posts on the thread. The top 3 "in defence of" have made little more than half that amount at 678. So when you point out that" those who support pop seem to spend a lot of time on this thread arguing about it", I'm not sure what your point is?



good data!


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 14, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Actually Im going to say personal digs at me isnt going to work.
> 
> Good try.


Not a personal dig. Who gives a fuck why you couldn't post? Why tell us you couldn't because you were on a March supporting refugees? How did that information add to any point you were making?


----------



## editor (Sep 14, 2015)

The car crash continues.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 14, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Not a personal dig. Who gives a fuck why you couldn't post? Why tell us you couldn't because you were on a March supporting refugees? How did that information add to any point you were making?



It was clearly a personal go at me.

You are doing it again.


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Eh?
> 
> You have recently leapt up the ranks to have the third highest post count on this thread (I'm second, most of that having been clocked up in the first half of the discussion).
> 
> A quick look at the top 3 posters who I think you would agree fall into the "do not support" Pop category shows they have jointly made 1270 posts on the thread. The top 3 "in defence of" have made little more than half that amount at 678. So when you point out that" those who support pop seem to spend a lot of time on this thread arguing about it", I'm not sure what your point is?


what a load of convoluted bollocks, all those figures show is that you view this discussion as some kind of Internet pissing contest"


----------



## deadringer (Sep 14, 2015)

teuchter said:


> My 75yo mum is visiting this week. Maybe I will take her to Pop for a G&T and report back on her assessment.
> 
> Although, maybe the creative buzz and exciting energy will be too much to her. So before going I'll ask "now then, seeing as you're just a little old lady I have to warn you that there will be young people there, there will be modern music playing and there will be a creative buzz all over the shop - don't you think these kinds of things will be terrifying and repellent for someone in your demographic? "
> 
> I'm sure that expressing my considerate thoughts and concerns will go down well.



Let's also hope she is not overwhelmed by the Adidas branding, demanding a pair of footy boots.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 14, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Let's also hope she is not overwhelmed by the Adidas branding, demanding a pair of footy boots.



Thank goodness the
DESTROY LONDON 
CHAOS MAKER
slogans are no longer up as she would almost certainly interpret them in an entirely literal sense and contact the emergency services on behalf of the local community.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 15, 2015)

"The ethos ehind POP has always been a business hub at the heart of a community."

Jacko on the adidas cash in.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 15, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> "The ethos ehind POP has always been a business hub at the heart of a community."
> 
> Jacko on the adidas cash in.



_'Adidas will be awarding a total of £5,000 to local sports clubs Afewee, Streetleague and St Matthews and a total of £10,000 to schools in Brixton.'_

Puzzled by the St Matthews connection above. On Twitter, they were critical of this event.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 15, 2015)

leanderman said:


> _'Adidas will be awarding a total of £5,000 to local sports clubs Afewee, Streetleague and St Matthews and a total of £10,000 to schools in Brixton.'_
> 
> Puzzled by the St Matthews connection above. On Twitter, they were critical of this event.



Talking to some of those now awarded money they were critical/ realistic about the Adidas event. They need any money they can get but were not that happy about giving credence to Adidas. They were also concerned about the young people they deal with getting over impressed by the glamour of the brand. 

Also wanted Council/ Pop to get more out of Adidas in exchange for taking part / being in photo shoot.

So I am suprised its only £5000 between three groups. For Adidas five grand is not a lot. I dont think this was agreed until after the event/ photo shoot.

Pop/ Council really needed to get the local sports groups to support this and send there young people along. Otherwise it would not have worked.

To my mind Adidas got what they wanted at a cheap rate.


----------



## Effrasurfer (Sep 16, 2015)

Pop Brixton have a thumbs up from me for hosting this extremely grass roots programme, run by a very dedicated young woman from Croydon who just went in and asked for the space. She told me she thinks the people running Pop are all willing to help out community groups but don't know how to do outreach. Luckily this young social entrepreneur specializes in inreach.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 16, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> To my mind Adidas got what they wanted at a cheap rate.



Do you know what the rate should be? I have no idea.


----------



## T & P (Sep 16, 2015)

Two hundred million Pounds and Adidas CEO's first-born son, at the very least.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Also wanted Council/ Pop to get more out of Adidas in exchange for taking part / being in photo shoot.
> 
> So I am suprised its only £5000 between three groups. For Adidas five grand is not a lot. *I dont think this was agreed until after the event/ photo shoot.*



If it's true that's a whole new level of ineptitude.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

Sorry to derail but Just in case any agents are reading this, I won't get out of bed for a shoot for less than 10 grand. 

Sorry, as you were.


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> So I am suprised its only £5000 between three groups. For Adidas five grand is not a lot. I dont think this was agreed until after the event/ photo shoot.
> 
> Pop/ Council really needed to get the local sports groups to support this and send there young people along. Otherwise it would not have worked.
> 
> To my mind Adidas got what they wanted at a cheap rate.



Indeed.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

Adidas will have a very good idea of how much ROI they can expect to get from an event such as the one in question. Would love to know how they work it out because it's all soft gains I think. 

Does anybody know how much their net spend versus their expected income is from the event?


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Adidas will have a very good idea of how much ROI they can expect to get from an event such as the one in question. Would love to know how they work it out because it's all soft gains I think.
> 
> Does anybody know how much their net spend versus their expected income is from the event?


This was a big juicy promotional venture so trying to see if the books balanced up for the event seems rather meaningless.

I'd say they got a shitload of bang for their relatively minimal PR buck though.


----------



## snowy_again (Sep 16, 2015)

That's exactly what Mr Retro said.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

editor said:


> I'd say they got a shitload of bang for their relatively minimal PR buck though.


Not just PR. It would have cost a fair bit to build the stage and football area or whatever they did, and the outlay of £15k isn't insignificant. So it cost quite a lot. 

As you say they must get a serious return, they aren't doing it to be altruistic. As a project manager the hardest thing to calculate is soft RoI and I'd love to know how Adidas do this. I imagine it's a closely guarded secret.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Not just PR. It would have cost a fair bit to build the stage and football area or whatever they did, and the outlay of £15k isn't insignificant. So it cost quite a lot.
> 
> As you say they must get a serious return, they aren't doing it to be altruistic. As a project manager the hardest thing to calculate is soft RoI and I'd love to know how Adidas do this. I imagine it's a closely guarded secret.



I imagine they just guess. 

They may even lose on individual events like this. The loss being a drop in the ocean.


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Not just PR. It would have cost a fair bit to build the stage and football area or whatever they did, and the outlay of £15k isn't insignificant. So it cost quite a lot.


Nah, it's nothing to a massive global corporate like Adidas (brand value: $5.8 billion).

I've been to product launches where companies smaller than Adidas have spent that kind of money, and that was just for one night.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I imagine they just guess.


I wanted you to say there is a complex and well thought out methodology. "Guessing" has put my OCD into overdrive. You can't just guess


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I imagine they just guess.
> 
> They may even lose on individual events like this. The loss being a drop in the ocean.


The success of these events for global brands is not measured in terms of profit/loss over the course of its run. It'll be measured by the publicity, TV coverage, and social media traffic it generated - and the 'good' it did for the company's image - of which I'm sure it did very well indeed. I'd say they got a bargain, in fact.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 16, 2015)

Effrasurfer said:


> Pop Brixton have a thumbs up from me for hosting this extremely grass roots programme, run by a very dedicated young woman from Croydon who just went in and asked for the space. She told me she thinks the people running Pop are all willing to help out community groups but don't know how to do outreach. Luckily this young social entrepreneur specializes in inreach.



Although this sounds good on principle, I'm worried that the intrusive bag searches and high cost of bottled beer may put off children attending this community event.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

editor said:


> It'll be measured by the publicity, TV coverage, and social media traffic it generated - and the 'good' it did for the company's image.


That's the part I would love to know about. I don't give a fuck about Adidas per se, would just like to know how they measure that effect on the bottom line.


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That's the part I would love to know about. I don't give a fuck about Adidas per se, would just like to know how they measure that effect on the bottom line.


I don't think they'd ever analyse it to a point where there's a single cost per event - it all just forms part of an overall PR campaign tasked with spreading online/offline awareness and giving the company a nice shiny public profile.

All this kind of stuff is hugely and quite cynically calculating in its preparation and they would have carefully worked out ways to get the most positive PR for the least outlay. The more you look into this kind of thing the more repulsive it becomes.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 16, 2015)

i don't know about the pros and cons of whether Adidas would have turned a profit of loss from this short lived venture. What I do know is as a child I would have loved to have gone down there, had a kick about, catch a glimpse of a footballer, and had entry into a competition to win a pair of footy boots. I had fuck all growing up, but I know I'd have loved that.


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2015)

deadringer said:


> i don't know about the pros and cons of whether Adidas would have turned a profit of loss from this short lived venture. What I do know is as a child I would have loved to have gone down there, had a kick about, catch a glimpse of a footballer, and had entry into a competition to win a pair of footy boots. I had fuck all growing up, but I know I'd have loved that.


Then their marketing has worked perfectly on you.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 16, 2015)

In terms of whether the price was right, it also depends on how essential it was that it happened at Pop. If it simply"had" to be Pop, then Pop could name its price. I doubt it "had" to be Pop. Pop is new and a bit buzzy but there's no obvious synergy. And all Adidas really got was a corner of an empty car park to build a big stage on and the small stage inside Pop. The rest of the site carried on as normal afaik. I'd be surprised if there weren't lots of other places who would have happily taken their money to host it and that affects price.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

deadringer said:


> i don't know about the pros and cons of whether Adidas would have turned a profit of loss from this short lived venture. What I do know is as a child I would have loved to have gone down there, had a kick about, catch a glimpse of a footballer, and had entry into a competition to win a pair of footy boots. I had fuck all growing up, but I know I'd have loved that.


I'd have been the same as a kid. But that sort of marketing works. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. 

When we were kids the NZ All Blacks trained in our local rugby club. There must have been 200 people there to watch them train. It was free at the time of course but I bet it's not now. In fact Adidas sponsor NZ now and I bet absolutely nothing is done by them, without Adidas giving their blessing.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I'd have been the same as a kid. But that sort of marketing works. Otherwise they wouldn't do it.
> 
> When we were kids the NZ All Blacks trained in our local rugby club. There must have been 200 people there to watch them train. It was free at the time of course but I bet it's not now. In fact Adidas sponsor NZ now and I bet absolutely nothing is done by them, without Adidas giving their blessing.


In the run up to the 1982 World Cup in Spain the Spanish team trained in our school gym for a couple of weeks (goodness knows why, it was just a big room). I loved it and I wasn't even into football. I got all of their signatures. Arconada (goalie) was our biggest hero. We hung around like flies on shit. Camacho eventually told me to fuck off . Weirdly that made me very proud. Anyway, it was all exceedingly exciting at the time


----------



## ddraig (Sep 16, 2015)

T & P said:


> Two hundred million Pounds and Adidas CEO's first-born son, at the very least.


Grow.up.


----------



## Manter (Sep 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I wanted you to say there is a complex and well thought out methodology. "Guessing" has put my OCD into overdrive. You can't just guess


They will have a complex and well thought out methodology to put their guesses in board reports and business cases in a way that doesn't look like guessing, if that helps


----------



## Rushy (Sep 16, 2015)

Manter said:


> They will have a complex and well thought out methodology to put their guesses in board reports and business cases in a way that doesn't look like guessing, if that helps


Spot on .


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 16, 2015)

Manter said:


> They will have a complex and well thought out methodology to put their guesses in board reports and business cases in a way that doesn't look like guessing, if that helps


That's my trick - you mean it's not just me?


----------



## leanderman (Sep 16, 2015)

I wonder if it was, in part, a 'corporate jolly' for Adidas execs.

'Let's have a couple of days out of the office and hang out with Mata and Terry, make them do a bit of work for the millions we hand them. These kids from a poor area will tick our social responsibility boxes. Plus we'll get a few publicity pictures and can hide the cost of it all somewhere in our promo budget.'


----------



## Manter (Sep 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> That's my trick - you mean it's not just me?


Lots of people make very good livings doing just that.

Ahem.


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 16, 2015)

Manter said:


> Lots of people make very good livings doing just that.
> 
> Ahem.



yep, and that is probably why Brixton is becoming an unaffordable shadow of it's former self and the restaurants are all doing very nicely


----------



## Manter (Sep 16, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> yep, and that is probably why Brixton is becoming an unaffordable shadow of it's former self and the restaurants are all doing very nicely


i suspect CSR reports aren't to blame for gentrification....


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 16, 2015)

Manter said:


> i suspect CSR reports aren't to blame for gentrification....



I suspect they  have played a part, anyway here is a tune............


----------



## jezg (Sep 16, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> "The ethos ehind POP has always been a business hub at the heart of a community."
> 
> Jacko on the adidas cash in.



Wonder if any money from Diageo's presence is going to the community!?


----------



## gdubz (Sep 16, 2015)

jezg said:


> Wonder if any money from Diageo's presence is going to the community!?


Yup. To anyone who invests in a pension. [ducks]


----------



## elmpp (Sep 17, 2015)

Manter said:


> They will have a complex and well thought out methodology to put their guesses in board reports and business cases in a way that doesn't look like guessing, if that helps


There are plenty of social media collation metric tools out there, hoovering up real time feeds. 

The relatively high amount of buzz Pop no doubt exhibits versus the fairly low cost would get this rubber-stamped


----------



## discobastard (Sep 17, 2015)

elmpp said:


> There are plenty of social media collation metric tools out there, hoovering up real time feeds.
> 
> The relatively high amount of buzz Pop no doubt exhibits versus the fairly low cost would get this rubber-stamped


How you define 'buzz'?


----------



## elmpp (Sep 17, 2015)

"buzz" = quantification of social media posts


----------



## discobastard (Sep 17, 2015)

elmpp said:


> "buzz" = quantification of social media posts


Quantification meaning number of posts?  Nothing on overall sentiment?
_
"In mathematics and empirical science, *quantification* (or quantitation) is the act of counting and measuring that maps human sense observations and experiences into members of some set of numbers. *Quantification*in this sense is fundamental to the scientific method."_


----------



## leanderman (Sep 18, 2015)

Daughter's primary school trip next week: Pop


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 18, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Daughter's primary school trip next week: Pop



wine tasting?


----------



## Winot (Sep 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> wine tasting?



Only 'driving wine' to start with though.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 19, 2015)

Her elder sister's class are making illustrated maps of Brixton that will be put on display at Pop.


----------



## concerned1 (Sep 21, 2015)

Seems there are a few problems


----------



## Winot (Sep 21, 2015)

concerned1 said:


> Seems there are a few problems   View attachment 76988



Broken from the inside out, by the look of the glass.  Someone's wine corked?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 21, 2015)

concerned1 said:


> Seems there are a few problems   View attachment 76988



Tut tut. Nawty.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 21, 2015)

That's the last time they try to peddle oven chips as nu hipster cuisine


----------



## Crispy (Sep 21, 2015)

Winot said:


> Broken from the inside out, by the look of the glass.


I don't think so. The object is larger than the hole. Besides, you get broken glass on both sides of a broken window, especially toughened glass which crumbles like that.


----------



## Winot (Sep 21, 2015)

Crispy said:


> I don't think so. The object is larger than the hole. Besides, you get broken glass on both sides of a broken window, especially toughened glass which crumbles like that.



Spoilsport.


----------



## Ol Nick (Sep 21, 2015)

Winot said:


> Spoilsport.


Who is to say who is on the inside, and who is on the outside, man.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 21, 2015)

A neighbour who works there says they are a month behind schedule on delivering stage two, the business spaces.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 21, 2015)

leanderman said:


> A neighbour who works there says they are a month behind schedule on delivering stage two, the business spaces.



I'd love to expand further...but I am not suprised.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Sep 21, 2015)

The retail units are struggling, apparently - one of the shop owners there was telling me she's considering chucking in the towel as it just isn't working for her.


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 21, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> Who is to say who is on the inside, and who is on the outside, man.



You're either on the bus or off the bus.....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 21, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The retail units are struggling, apparently - one of the shop owners there was telling me she's considering chucking in the towel as it just isn't working for her.



Boo hoo....


----------



## leanderman (Sep 21, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> The retail units are struggling, apparently - one of the shop owners there was telling me she's considering chucking in the towel as it just isn't working for her.



No surprise with such high rents. And the fact it is quiet during the day, which is why my neighbour wants the second stage units hurried up.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 21, 2015)

They can't be looking forward to winter.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 21, 2015)

Belushi said:


> They can't be looking forward to winter.



I am, cos then we can get people back inside.....which is where I play


----------



## leanderman (Sep 21, 2015)

Belushi said:


> They can't be looking forward to winter.



They have two fairly large indoor spaces


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2015)

leanderman said:


> They have two fairly large indoor spaces


But surely there won't be room for many people at all as the main indoor area is full of community gardens, growing vegetables and plants and other horticultural items? Oh, wait....


----------



## Rushy (Sep 22, 2015)

Grow! proposed that the poly tunnel would constitute "propaganda beds" surrounding a central eating area. Seems like what we have. The earliest illustrations of the Grow! poly tunnel show that it was largely taken up by seating and tables with narrow beds around the sides and climbers growing up the sides.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 22, 2015)

The GROW Brixton presentation annotates the poly tunnel as "*FOOD: cafe, kiosks, cookery school*". Agreed it looks exactly as the original proposal (not that it even has to, as that proposal was dropped)


----------



## teuchter (Sep 22, 2015)

The original proposal was what won the competition, so what we get should certainly resemble it in principle. It wasn't "dropped" - it underwent a change in management and name. That's not an excuse to deviate significantly from what was originally offered.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 22, 2015)

Semantics. But the polytunnel resembles what was in the Grow proposal so I don't see any issue for those who hold that view.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 22, 2015)

I don't think it differs significantly from the original proposal.

Those who think it has, don't seem to be making their judgement based on what was actually described in the details of the proposal documents. They are basing it on the wording and imagery of PR stuff, and their interpretation of that.

Even if it had remained as "grow", with EBS involved, I don't think it would have turned out very different. There would still be scope for complaints that things didn't look exactly like they did in illustrative presentation images from the early stages of the design.


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 22, 2015)

Nice to see the green oasis offering an alternative to the Rugby World Cup
which means certain Brixton establishments are now invaded by raucous chaps on match days...............


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 22, 2015)

Brilliant! They're showing the world cup? Is it on a big screen?


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 22, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Brilliant! They're showing the world cup? Is it on a big screen?



idk but I'm sure pork products will be in demand in the "coming" weeks following the great leaders endorsement


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Nice to see the green oasis offering an alternative to the Rugby World Cup
> which means certain Brixton establishments are now invaded by raucous chaps on match days...............


Truly a green oasis. They're really thinking out of the box here.

I just wish they'd hurry up and rename it Pub Brixton.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 22, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I don't think it differs significantly from the original proposal.
> 
> Those who think it has, don't seem to be making their judgement based on what was actually described in the details of the proposal documents. They are basing it on the wording and imagery of PR stuff, and their interpretation of that.
> 
> Even if it had remained as "grow", with EBS involved, I don't think it would have turned out very different. There would still be scope for complaints that things didn't look exactly like they did in illustrative presentation images from the early stages of the design.



I did have a chat with EBS at Open House and thats not there view.

I have urged them to go public about what happened, to give there side of it, but they don't want to.

This is unfortunate. It does mean that you are basing what you say on limited information.

You are often a stickler for having all that facts/ info before any firm opinion can be made. In this case you don't.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 22, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> I did have a chat with EBS at Open House and thats not there view.
> 
> I have urged them to go public about what happened, to give there side of it, but they don't want to.
> 
> ...


Not sure what "firm opinion" I'm making, but we do have the facts about what the original competition entry proposed, and we can compare the reality against that.

No-one (including EBS) can know with certainty what would have happened differently if EBS had remained involved.

For sure I would be interested to hear their side of the story. If they don't want to share it, so be it. We have to make do with what information is available.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 22, 2015)

editor said:


> But surely there won't be room for many people at all as the main indoor area is full of community gardens, growing vegetables and plants and other horticultural items? Oh, wait....



As I was told to get a "reality check" on another thread Ive been asking people I know in Brixton what they think of Pop.

So far its been totally negative. ie its not what they thought it was going to be. One said they hate it so much they avoid walking by it.

As Ive been going to a few meetings about Loughborough Junction about the only thing that everyone up there can agree on is that they dont want anything like Pop up at LJ.

And one of my Cllrs said lessons needed to be learnt about what happened to this Meanwhile project. 

So far hardly a ringing endorsement from anyone I know.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 22, 2015)

teuchter said:


> For sure I would be interested to hear their side of the story. If they don't want to share it, so be it. We have to make do with what information is available.



I thought you always wanted to have all the facts. As in the case of Number 6 / Brixton Green, for example,  you were insisting on having all the facts.

Actually EBS are quite clear it would have been different if they had remained involved.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 22, 2015)

When I'm trying to form an opinion about something I always want to have as many of the relevant facts as possible. An entirely uncontroversial approach I would have thought. That applied to No. 6 and it applies here. I'm not sure why you think I'm approaching this in any other way.

EBS' speculation about what would have happened differently had they been involved doesn't affect the facts about what was proposed in the competition entry, or in what form Pop currently exists. My point was that at the moment I don't see much evidence that the reality deviates wildly from the original proposals. However, this may of course change over time. They haven't even finished building the thing yet.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Actually EBS are quite clear it would have been different if they had remained involved.



Clear to whom?


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> When I'm trying to form an opinion about something I always want to have as many of the relevant facts as possible. An entirely uncontroversial approach I would have thought. That applied to No. 6 and it applies here. I'm not sure why you think I'm approaching this in any other way.
> 
> EBS' speculation about what would have happened differently had they been involved doesn't affect the facts about what was proposed in the competition entry, or in what form Pop currently exists. My point was that at the moment I don't see much evidence that the reality deviates wildly from the original proposals. However, this may of course change over time. They haven't even finished building the thing yet.



On the same basis I think Pop does deviate from the original concept. For example Its already changed in appearance from the original proposal. Why else were later planning applications put in? If not to deviate from original proposal?

Your attitude to Number 6 was that you did not have all the facts so could not judge. Under your criteria therefore you do not have all the "facts" in this case. You do not have EBS , an interested party to this matter, side of it. As in the case of Number 6 you did not have Brixton Greens side of it.

Facts are limited. "Facts" aren't always fully available. Neither do they tell tell the whole story.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 23, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Clear to whom?



Clear to me when I talked to them.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 23, 2015)

The "I know something you don't know but I can't tell you" argument has been bandied about on this thread since the start of the year. There was even going to be a story revealed by an FOI. In 9 months that argument has not progressed much. As time passes it becomes even less convincing.

It is well documented that EBS were fully behind the original plan for enabling entrepreneurs, renting food and drink concessions, letting office space, corporate sponsorship, private ticketed events, substantial and growing profit shares with the council, etc... So I'm not convinced by their "clarity" that it would be wholly different had they remained involved.


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 23, 2015)

Going to go and try Kricket at the weekend and take in one of the lesser World Cup games.


----------



## Winot (Sep 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The "I know something you don't know but I can't tell you" argument has been bandied about on this thread since the start of the year. There was even going to be a story revealed by an FOI. In 9 months that argument has not progressed much. As time passes it becomes even less convincing.
> 
> It is well documented that EBS were fully behind the original plan for enabling entrepreneurs, renting food and drink concessions, letting office space, corporate sponsorship, private ticketed events, substantial and growing profit shares with the council, etc... So I'm not convinced by their "clarity" that it would be wholly different had they remained involved.



Grow: Profits


----------



## elmpp (Sep 23, 2015)

Also, the "i know something you don't know but I can't tell you" argument is normally precipitated following an informal straw poll of people one already knows and likely are of a similar belief. I'd be very surprised if the people asked in any way represented a fair cross section of today's inhabitants


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

I doubt many people in Brixton have an opinion about Pop. 

At best, it's somewhere they have vague intention of visiting at some point.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The "I know something you don't know but I can't tell you" argument has been bandied about on this thread since the start of the year. There was even going to be a story revealed by an FOI. In 9 months that argument has not progressed much. As time passes it becomes even less convincing.



Lambeth Council has blocked this FoI on two occasions now. The second FoI addressed the reasons given by the Council as to why it refused to answer the first request. It was thrown out again with no adequate explanation.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Lambeth Council has blocked this FoI on two occasions now. The second FoI addressed the reasons given by the Council as to why it refused to answer the first request. It was thrown out again with no adequate explanation.



Which will probably serve to make you even more determined to winkle it out.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which will probably serve to make you even more determined to winkle it out.



It's not me putting the FoI's in...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> It's not me putting the FoI's in...



Even better!


----------



## 299 old timer (Sep 23, 2015)

Rhetorical question:
Would it be of interest to Lambeth residents to learn of the relationship and timeline of Lambeth Council's correspondence with Adidas regarding Adidas' stay at Pop?


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

Some kind of photo event on down there now to do with Squire Partners architects, brixtonstreetgallery Squire and Partners on Twitter


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Lambeth Council has blocked this FoI on two occasions now. The second FoI addressed the reasons given by the Council as to why it refused to answer the first request. It was thrown out again with no adequate explanation.



Why was it initially blocked? What was the later, inadequate explanation?


----------



## Rushy (Sep 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Lambeth Council has blocked this FoI on two occasions now. The second FoI addressed the reasons given by the Council as to why it refused to answer the first request. It was thrown out again with no adequate explanation.


I can appreciate that is frustrating. It does not change the fact that EBS were on board with a profit dependent commercial project from the start and that pretty much all of the elements in the current realisation were in their original joint proposal.

Remind me why it is they don't want anyone publishing the refused FOIs, or their side of the story?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 23, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Why was it initially blocked? What was the later, inadequate explanation?



The first FoI was blocked because apparently it would take longer then the 18 hour timeframe deemed reasonable to service an FoI.

The second FoI question was tailored so as to cover a shorter time frame. It was turned down because it was classified as a duplicate of an FoI that had previously been refused.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 23, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Remind me why it is they don't want anyone publishing the refused FOIs, or their side of the story?



My understanding is that EBS doesn't want to burn future bridges when it comes to working with other local groups. It is frustrating though as a situation has been allowed to develop, but to address these claims might have an impact on future projects.


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> My understanding is that EBS doesn't want to burn future bridges when it comes to working with other local groups. It is frustrating though as a situation has been allowed to develop, but to address these claims might have an impact on future projects.


They've been put over a barrel by the sounds of things, and have been effectively gagged. It's shameful.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

The EBS-stays-on-at-Pop counterfactual joins the great 'What Ifs?' of history: Caesar snubbing the senate, Harold ducking at Hastings and Napoleon not marching on Moscow.


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2015)

#hypedtofuck
#keepitlocal
#community


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 23, 2015)

editor said:


> #hypedtofuck
> #keepitlocal
> #community


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

That's tennis!


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2015)

leanderman said:


> That's tennis!








Oh, hang on, I missed something...


----------



## T & P (Sep 23, 2015)

How _very_ dare Pop show an unapproved sport on its big screen!

What they should do is to only show that famous staple of common people, Barclays Premiership football games in association with Rupert Murdoch's BSkyB, and force punters to consume drinks while they watch. It is, at the end of the day, what working class normal folk want.

Will their wickedness and utter contempt for ordinary Brixton residents never end?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 23, 2015)

It would be nice if some venues just used a little imagination and provided an alternative to big sporting events....

....although I can see there's not as much money to be made from that...


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It would be nice if some venues just used a little imagination and provided an alternative to big sporting events....


Indeed. There's no imagination here, and they're acting just like a regular chain pub looking for the maximum footfall of boozing sports fans to boost profits, all of which makes the community "green oasis" stuff sound like total guff.


----------



## T & P (Sep 23, 2015)

Same could be said of countless other venues in town, in particular the pubs we all know and love, which let's not forget have always been portrayed as pillars of the local community. 

The point being, a venue showing a significant sport event on its screen with free entry and a great deal less pressure to spend money on-site than a pub would exert on its visitors is certainly a good thing in my books- and I can't possibly imagine how it could be anything else to anyone who didn't have a massive axe to grind.

Fuck knows I've never for a second suggested Pop is perfect or above criticism, but the urge to turn absolutely everything they do into something bad and to be derided, especially in examples like this one, is beyond surreal.


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2015)

Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> How _very_ dare Pop show an unapproved sport on its big screen!
> 
> What they should do is to only show that famous staple of common people, Barclays Premiership football games in association with Rupert Murdoch's BSkyB, and force punters to consume drinks while they watch. It is, at the end of the day, what working class normal folk want.
> 
> Will their wickedness and utter contempt for ordinary Brixton residents never end?




Rugby is a tricky one on the approved/unapproved U75 party line. 

Rugby - Good honest game played by men who don't dive and cheat, respect the referee, and who until recently were not handsomely rewarded.......but traditionally enjoyed but Hooray Henry public school types.....

Football - full of overpaid prima donnas, rampant commercialism, but a sport enjoyed by the traditional working class......


What to do, what to do...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 23, 2015)

I don't like watching any sport


----------



## Mr Retro (Sep 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I don't like watching any sport


Do you like pictures of crowds of people watching different sports? You've come to the right thread!


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It would be nice if some venues just used a little imagination and provided an alternative to big sporting events...



The venue was used earlier today to promote the Brixton street photography event:

Involving students from a local secondary, from Photofusion and various arty types


----------



## deadringer (Sep 23, 2015)

editor said:


> Indeed. There's no imagination here, and they're acting just like a regular chain pub looking for the maximum footfall of boozing sports fans to boost profits, all of which makes the community "green oasis" stuff sound like total guff.



Yes, imagine a Rugby World Cup, bring people from all nations together, having a drink together, enjoying a common game......


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 23, 2015)

I realise they are doing other stuff....but I would like see some venues, not just pop, offer an alternative thing to do when big sports events are on...


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Yes, imagine a Rugby World Cup, bring people from all nations together, having a drink together, enjoying a common game......


There's nothing wrong with that, but Pop wasn't supposed to be about replicating a High Street sports pub - or being 'taken over' by global megabrands, for that matter.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I realise they are doing other stuff....but I would like see some venues, not just pop, offer an alternative thing to do when big sports events are on...



The number of people watching sport now seems to inversely correlated with the number participating in it.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 23, 2015)

editor said:


> There's nothing wrong with that, but Pop wasn't supposed to be about replicating a High Street sports pub - or being 'taken over' by global megabrands, for that matter.




The Adidas 'takeover' that lasted how long? How long do you reckon the rugby World Cup will last for?

I note that there had been no comment from the negative nelly's about this worthy cause at Pop:

Pop Brixton

Or a rush to get out a Brixton Buzz article either. Says it all really.


----------



## madolesance (Sep 23, 2015)

The 'Adidas' deal was pretty much done even before 'Pop Brixton' opened. If anyone has the minutes/ recording of the Q+A that happened at Market House then it'll be quiet clear this is the sort of thing they (Phillipe/ Jack) all ways had planned for.


----------



## leanderman (Sep 23, 2015)

I imagine the traders will appreciate any extra footfall from the rugby, especially considering their onerous rents.


----------



## T & P (Sep 23, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The Adidas 'takeover' that lasted how long? How long do you reckon the rugby World Cup will last for?
> 
> I note that there had been no comment from the negative nelly's about this worthy cause at Pop:
> 
> ...


OI! This thread is only for reporting Bad Things or Things That If Twisted Hard Enough Might Just Be Spun as Bad Things. No room for hippie crap here.


----------



## editor (Sep 23, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Or a rush to get out a Brixton Buzz article either. Says it all really.


Yes, what it says that you're constructing a particularly despicable slur based on a nasty bit of dishonest projection and it really pisses me off.

This bullshit argument that runs along the lines of, "oh, you haven't written an article about this, therefore you don't support it/don't care about it," really is fucking bullshit. Shame on you for trotting out such crap.

The fact is that although Buzz advertises hundreds of events every month for free, there is no way on earth we could hope to cover every one. Of course, if people bother to send us press releases, we do endeavour to try and write something if possible, but guess what? This lot didn't. It's the first I've heard of it.

And anyone can upload details of their own events on Buzz - including anyone at Pop Brixton - or even you. But do tell me what you've already done to promote this event you've taken a sudden interest in. Did you write up about it here or anywhere else? No? Why ever not?


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 23, 2015)

Bit touchy


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 24, 2015)

Maybe the real problem with Pop is not that it's really great, or that it's really shit....

It's just an average market place/night time space driven by corporate creatives and geared towards young proffesional people.

It might be trying hard enough, just within the confines of a bland, safe, over exposed, comfortable world.

So they do a bit of good, give a couple of hours a week over to noble causes, put on some fairly mainstream entertainment, have retro gaming nights, engage in a bit of corporate sponsorship, invite brands to take over for a weekend...perhaps none of this is done with any cynicism whatsoever, but also with no imagination.

So maybe turning an opportunity to do something really unique in Brixton into something plain and inoffensive is even worse than all the evil capitalist bohemoth criticism....like those spaces in the city where people go for lunch in the summer, and pretend for an hour that they are enjoying the rat race because it's not that bad at all....

...or something...


----------



## Angellic (Sep 24, 2015)

Brixton Bloc are also screening the rugby matches.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 24, 2015)

BORING


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Rugby is a tricky one on the approved/unapproved U75 party line.
> 
> Rugby - Good honest game played by men who don't dive and cheat, respect the referee, and who until recently were not handsomely rewarded.......but traditionally enjoyed but Hooray Henry public school types.....
> 
> What to do, what to do...



In your case, I'd suggest apprising yourself of the differences between Union and League Rugby.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I don't like watching any sport



I prefer my sport like my music - live.


----------



## Fingers (Sep 24, 2015)

Went to Pop tonight.  It was only really to check out creative uses of shipping containers as we are buying one as a merch shop for the football club and have to fit it out ourselves.

The fella in the Brixton Beer bar was helpful, as was the lady who owed the clothing shop on the left as you walk in.

Had a couple of pints in the top greenhouse bit. not a place I would want to spend the evening. Over run with newcomers. If that was set up in Brixton ten years ago it would have been ace.

We had a couple of pints and headed to the Albert which is a very weird pub at the moment


----------



## Fingers (Sep 24, 2015)

Though to be fair, 13 years ago I was a newcomer


----------



## han (Sep 24, 2015)

Nearly all of us were at some point.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 24, 2015)

Everything is amazing when you discover it, then ruined when others do.

Nicked this from elsewhere on Urban: Old newcomers complaining about new newcomers

In a Display of ‘Peak Caucasity,’ a White Man Claims He’s the Reason Another White Man Can Live in Brooklyn, NY

"We settled this place for you"


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 24, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Everything is amazing when you discover it, then ruined when others do.



Reminds me of this


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 25, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The "I know something you don't know but I can't tell you" argument has been bandied about on this thread since the start of the year. There was even going to be a story revealed by an FOI. In 9 months that argument has not progressed much. As time passes it becomes even less convincing.
> 
> It is well documented that EBS were fully behind the original plan for enabling entrepreneurs, renting food and drink concessions, letting office space, corporate sponsorship, private ticketed events, substantial and growing profit shares with the council, etc... So I'm not convinced by their "clarity" that it would be wholly different had they remained involved.



As EBS will not go public you will never know. EBS do not see it this way.

Leaving aside EBS if this was the original plan then its shite. 

If that was all it was going to be then the Council should have let out the site on a commercial basis and be done with it.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 25, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> As EBS will not go public you will never know. EBS do not see it this way.
> 
> Leaving aside EBS if this was the original plan then its shite.



Sure. It's clear that you think it is shite. That's fine. It's just not clear why you still doubt that the from the very first joint Edible Bus Stop / CTA presentation the original Grow proposal  always involved enabling entrepreneurs, renting food and drink concessions, letting office space, corporate sponsorship, private ticketed events, substantial and growing profit shares with the council, etc...

Whatever the story behind the Edible Bust Up, it is little more than a sorry fall out between two commercial business partners. The Grow / Pop stage was set long before.


----------



## Winot (Sep 25, 2015)

I think that there was an enthusiastic focus on the frothy marketing side of things, and a lack of attention to detail on the reality.  When the reality ensued, the blame was placed on the switch from Grow to Pop.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 25, 2015)

I see why you say that but as I recall it, the "blame" started long before Pop's "reality" could possibly even begin to be assessed. It was no more than foundations. The Blame coincided exactly with edible bus stop declaring that they'd been ousted/had walked (still not clear).  What's clear now is that they were on board with many of the things that Pop is being criticised for. So yes, whilst there appears to have been some misunderstanding by some about what the original proposal exactly involved, the departure of Edible Bus Stop is not the cause of this. Their fall out with CTA appears to be little more than a bitter (rightly or not)  side story.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> I think that there was an enthusiastic focus on the frothy marketing side of things, and a lack of attention to detail on the reality.  When the reality ensued, the blame was placed on the switch from Grow to Pop.


You don't think the ditching of the Edible people and the unannounced replacement with arch-capitalist, property developers The Collective had any bearing at all on how the place subsequently turned out?

It's worth revisiting EBS's earlier statements and video just to remind yourself of how far it has drifted from the vision that was sold to the public. And let's not forget the uber-horticultural early mock ups.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 25, 2015)

I'd certainly agree that the Edible Bus Stop promo video entirely avoids touching on any of the commercial aspects of the Grow! project which they had already presented to and agreed with the council. 

If that were the only thing someone had judged the project on I can see why they might be surprised by the real thing.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 25, 2015)

Remove the giant fork and spade and it doesn't look any different from the GROW mock up. They even got the Event Space in the same place


----------



## Angellic (Sep 25, 2015)

and a cinema?


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 25, 2015)

Angellic said:


> and a cinema?



There's a cinema?


----------



## Angellic (Sep 25, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> There's a cinema?



Looks like there was meant to be.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2015)

Angellic said:


> Looks like there was meant to be.


The sign must have got lost in the post, like the grow tunnel, the giant fork and spade and the community kitchen.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 25, 2015)

That would fit in the event space easily. I assume it was never to be a permanent feature?


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 25, 2015)

The grow tunnel looks exactly as 'advertised', the giant fork and spade are decorative garnish, and the community kitchen may yet arrive once Pop is finished?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 25, 2015)

Well the contractors I know in the next wave aint building no community kitchen...


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Well the contractors I know in the next wave aint building no community kitchen...


Maybe they've built in underground. Or perhaps they're about to sweep aside what they've built and put in what they originally promised:


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 25, 2015)




----------



## CH1 (Sep 25, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> "We settled this place for you"


That's what the acolytes of Pop Brixton will say when Mr Corbyn's bulldozers come to flatten it and turn it into social housing, God willing.


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2015)

CH1 said:


> That's what the acolytes of Pop Brixton will say when Mr Corbyn's bulldozers come to flatten it and turn it into social housing, God willing.


There's just about zero chance of the place turning into social housing, especially if The (lol!) Collective have any stake in it.


----------



## 299 old timer (Sep 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Maybe they've built in underground. Or perhaps they're about to sweep aside what they've built and put in what they originally promised:



Proper artistic license there, those climbers have no support!


----------



## T & P (Sep 25, 2015)

Angellic said:


> and a cinema?


They do have a giant screen of short where they are currently showing a major sporting event currently taking place in the UK. Given that the project is not finished yet (something that continues to be ignored), there might well be regular cinema screenings in the future, yes.

The screening of the major sporting event (with free entry and no obligation to consume) has been met with anything from indifference to scorn by certain quarters. Apparently it's too predictable and conformist. Quite how much more radical and alternative the screening of films is compared to the screening of a major sporting event remains to be seen. My guess is if Pop Brixton had decided to show films instead of the sporting event, you could bet your soul that exactly the same criticisms would have been expressed.


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 25, 2015)

T & P said:


> They do have a giant screen of short where they are currently showing a major sporting event currently taking place in the UK. Given that the project is not finished yet (something that continues to be ignored), there might well be regular cinema screenings in the future, yes.
> 
> The screening of the major sporting event (with free entry and no obligation to consume) has been met with anything from indifference to scorn by certain quarters. Apparently it's too predictable and conformist. Quite how much more radical and alternative the screening of films is compared to the screening of a major sporting event remains to be seen. My guess is if Pop Brixton had decided to show films instead of the sporting event, you could bet your soul that exactly the same criticisms would have been expressed.



the world track cycling championships take place next March in London
a prestigious event in the cycling calendar, and one that is not given prime time slots on itv
I doubt the crown and anchor will show it either
so It will be interesting to see if pop has big screen coverage
my guess would be that it won't, because track cycling is not massively popular
amongst beer swilling young professionals.......l


----------



## deadringer (Sep 25, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> In your case, I'd suggest apprising yourself of the differences between Union and League Rugby.



There are TWO different types?!


----------



## T & P (Sep 25, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> the world track cycling championships take place next March in London
> a prestigious event in the cycling calendar, and one that is not given prime time slots on itv
> I doubt the crown and anchor will show it either
> so It will be interesting to see if pop has big screen coverage
> ...


If they were to show the world track cycling championships, what do you anticipate the response from Pop critics would actually be? Do you think for a moment it would not be ridiculed and portrayed as some hipster-pleasing exercise that excludes the bulk of the Brixton community?


----------



## snowy_again (Sep 25, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> the world track cycling championships take place next March in London
> a prestigious event in the cycling calendar, and one that is not given prime time slots on itv
> I doubt the crown and anchor will show it either
> so It will be interesting to see if pop has big screen coverage
> ...



You've been to Ghent i assume?


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 25, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> You've been to Ghent i assume?


I have not but I am aware of the 6 day event
Ghent is not London though, as a community project
pop could take a lead by promoting the track championships
as profit should not be the primary objective


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 25, 2015)

T & P said:


> If they were to show the world track cycling championships, what do you anticipate the response from Pop critics would actually be? Do you think for a moment it would not be ridiculed and portrayed as some hipster-pleasing exercise that excludes the bulk of the Brixton community?



do you think they would show the track championships on big screen ?


----------



## deadringer (Sep 25, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> do you think they would show the track championships on big screen ?



They probably wouldn't think to. Might be worth dropping them a line though letting them know what it is, when it's on and asking or suggesting it.


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> They probably wouldn't think to. Might be worth dropping them a line though letting them know what it is, when it's on and asking or suggesting it.



good idea, they might even read this thread, they can donate my consultancy fee to a cause of
editor 's choice......


----------



## deadringer (Sep 25, 2015)

Or put it towards buying that elusive spade and fork display above the entrance missing from the original mock up drawings!


----------



## leanderman (Sep 28, 2015)

Conspiracy theorists will be pleased to learn there is a 'secret room' at Pop.

Or so my eight-year-old whispered to me after a school trip today.


----------



## han (Sep 28, 2015)

What, like the ones you get in clubs in Vauxhall?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 28, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Conspiracy theorists will be pleased to learn there is a 'secret room' at Pop.
> 
> Or so my eight-year-old whispered to me after a school trip today.



I've heard about this. Apparently it is lined with poly-tunnels and grow bags. There is a sign on the door saying: Imagine a green oasis...


----------



## leanderman (Sep 28, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> I've heard about this. Apparently it is lined with poly-tunnels and grow bags. There is a sign on the door saying: Imagine a green oasis...



After some enhanced interrogation, she cracked and revealed it was the studio of Reprezent - where she and her mates did a brief broadcast.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 28, 2015)

I've not really got anything else to say about Pop. I'm not the demographic that is serves.

But the social media presence is half-decent of late.


----------



## Ms T (Sep 28, 2015)

I did have lunch there the other day and it was nice sitting in the sun, watching the world go by. The clientele was pretty mixed, and the set lunch at Donostia Social Club was delicious and very good value at a tenner for an (alcoholic) drink and a couple of tapas dishes.  I can't see myself hanging out there of an evening, but I was impressed by the food.


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 29, 2015)

We went one Sunday morning and I really didn't like it, it's just not good for my lifestyle at all.  We bought one cupcake/fairy cake for £3.50 and split it between four of us   - and then went to Ruskin Park and bought 3 more for £1 a pop with nicer views.  Tbf - I can see that it probably is nice for lots of people and maybe at a different time in my life it would have been somewhere I'd go but nah!  I quite liked the little hidey-cubby holes underneath the ramp up to the Greenhouse bit and also the 2nd floor looked nice to sit and eat. But there is fuck-all vegetarian food - otherwise maybe I might have gone for a second try without the kids sometime if there had been something tempting.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Sep 29, 2015)

We popped by a few weeks ago and it was ok/nothing special. Had some food at Kricket the Indian place, as it was one of the only places that could cater for a vegan.


----------



## Rushy (Sep 29, 2015)

shakespearegirl said:


> We popped by a few weeks ago and it was ok/nothing special. Had some food at Kricket the Indian place, as it was one of the only places that could cater for a vegan.


How many places in Brixton cater for vegans? I found myself having to consider this for the first time recently with a vegan guest. Took them to the Veg Bar (old Brazas) on Tulse Hill but we were all distinctly unimpressed with the food. There was one raw salad dish, which was ok. The rest was pretend bbq chicken wings, pretend burger, pretend macaroni and cheese, French fries, fake bacon, etc... And no coconut ice cream! I think we tried everything apart from the polenta stack.

Good venue, mind you, with live music in the basement (they've taken over the short lived jazz bar). Friendly, if rather disorganised, staff. So has potential.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Sep 29, 2015)

Not that many! 

Khamsa on Acre Lane does, Negril does. 

Earl Ferrers in Streatham promised they would last Sunday, however, when we got there there was nothing suitable on the menu. 

We went to Greenz in Tulse Hill (thinking it was the old Brazas) last year and whilst the food was nice, the atmosphere was quite weird. We were the only people in the place on a Saturday evening. 

It's a bit of a challenge being married to a vegan, when you aren't one yourself..


----------



## Rushy (Sep 29, 2015)

I went on a couple of dates with a vegan. She was adamant that it was no hassle and that I would not even notice. By the time we eventually found somewhere to eat I was close to death with hunger. And it was a Wagamama.

Then it turned out she was tee total. And more than a little bonkers.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Sep 29, 2015)

Well the teetotal would be a deal breaker... 

I like to be very organised and always check whether restaurants can accommodate. Mr Shakes gets annoyed by this and then its super stressful when there is nothing for him to eat. 

Still, checking is no guarantee as we found out last weekend.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 29, 2015)

Rushy said:


> And more than a little bonkers.



No meat, dairy or alcohol would drive me nuts too


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 29, 2015)

I went to Wahaca with a kosher vegan with added allergy complications.  She called ahead to check it wouldn't be an issue and they accommodated her no problem!


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Sep 29, 2015)

Oricle in the village still best vegan food in Brixton in my opinion, though I love Ms. Cupcake's 'Sunday roast puffs (like a sausage roll but filled with tofurky, cranberry, roast veggies, stuffing...mmmm....). The Ethiopian cafe on station road does vegan, the falafel place can be if you watch the sauces, Negril have decent options, and most of the carrabian places do a decent strew or curry that's vegan. Satay used to have vegan options, haven't been there for about a year though. Might have to go back to check, strictly for research and cocktails.


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 29, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Oricle in the village still best vegan food in Brixton in my opinion, though I love Ms. Cupcake's 'Sunday roast puffs (like a sausage roll but filled with tofurky, cranberry, roast veggies, stuffing...mmmm....). The Ethiopian cafe on station road does vegan, the falafel place can be if you watch the sauces, Negril have decent options, and most of the carrabian places do a decent strew or curry that's vegan.



What's Oricle?

also should add - curry ono will have plenty of vegan options - I think all the stuff I eat there as a veggie is vegan.


----------



## organicpanda (Sep 30, 2015)

also Ichiban Sushi has plenty of vegan options


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Sep 30, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> What's Oricle?
> 
> also should add - curry ono will have plenty of vegan options - I think all the stuff I eat there as a veggie is vegan.


It's a little sandwich / salad / juice place, opposite 'The Joint'/ 'Etta's Seafood Kitchen'. Just simple and yummy.


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 30, 2015)

Pop nudged into second place by Selfridges.

The 11 Best Places for Food Courts in London


----------



## T & P (Sep 30, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Pop nudged into second place by Selfridges.
> 
> The 11 Best Places for Food Courts in London


It's not bad and has some good offerings, but no way (IMO) it's the second best place in London.

Pretty flawed list. The food court at Wimbledon is shite, or certainly not worthy of being in a top ten list. And where is the Camdem Lock food court??


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 1, 2015)

I couldn't even name ten 'food courts' so Pop would have to be in the top ten


----------



## Belushi (Oct 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Pop nudged into second place by Selfridges.
> 
> The 11 Best Places for Food Courts in London



And the village in fourth place


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2015)

I thought food court was a term for the top floor of out of town shopping centres, not just areas with a few restaurants in one place


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 1, 2015)

Manter said:


> I thought food court was a term for the top floor of out of town shopping centres, not just areas with a few restaurants in one place



That would be a much shitter top ten list


----------



## Rushy (Oct 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> That would be a much shitter top ten list


Shit enough to make a list of the top ten shit top ten lists?


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2015)

Belushi said:


> And the village in fourth place


Ah, it's a food court now! 

And what the fuck is Time Out about: "Time Out London: In Brixton, up until 2009, the old Granville Arcade was just another of London's many retail spaces in abandoned disrepair, until Spacemakers were called in to regenerate the space."


----------



## Winot (Oct 1, 2015)

I think 'food court' in this sense is an Anglo-Asian term.  I seem to remember that Singapore has lots of them.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 1, 2015)

Food courts are popular in all the big South East Asian cities


----------



## Belushi (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Ah, it's a food court now!



More accurate than 'Village' TBF


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Ah, it's a food court now!
> 
> And what the fuck is Time Out about: "Time Out London: In Brixton, up until 2009, the old Granville Arcade was just another of London's many retail spaces in abandoned disrepair, until Spacemakers were called in to regenerate the space."



"Dear Time Out, I believe you have mistakenly put an 'r' at the beginning of the word 'degenerate' instead of a 'd'. Yours etc"


----------



## shakespearegirl (Oct 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Food courts are popular in all the big South East Asian cities



Not only South East Asia. The food court at Westfield is packed all day every day.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Ah, it's a food court now!
> 
> And what the fuck is Time Out about: "Time Out London: In Brixton, up until 2009, the old Granville Arcade was just another of London's many retail spaces in abandoned disrepair, until Spacemakers were called in to regenerate the space."


My thoughts exactly.  I went again the other day, wanting to eat this time to see what all the fuss is about.  The place that I would have eaten in was closed (Bhangra Burgers), so that was more than a little disappointing.  It's the 3rd or 4th time I've been for a mooch but I get the same feeling every time...it's cold (metaphorically speaking) and crammed...they're building more at the back there too I see .  I have no interest to go in the evening...I have no interest in going back at all in fact.


----------



## Winot (Oct 1, 2015)

Maharani said:


> My thoughts exactly.  I went again the other day, wanting to eat this time to see what all the fuss is about.  The place that I would have eaten in was closed (Bhangra Burgers), so that was more than a little disappointing.  It's the 3rd or 4th time I've been for a mooch but I get the same feeling every time...it's cold (metaphorically speaking) and crammed...they're building more at the back there too I see .  I have no interest to go in the evening...I have no interest in going back at all in fact.



Do keep us updated on your lack of interest.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 1, 2015)

Winot said:


> Do keep us updated on your lack of interest.


Sure thing.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2015)

Winot said:


> Do keep us updated on your lack of interest.


Imagine! A regular poster expressing a personal opinion of the place after visiting several times. On a thread dedicated to discussing the place. _How very dare they!_


----------



## Maharani (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Imagine! A regular poster expressing a personal opinion of the place after visiting several times. On a thread dedicated to discussing the place. _How very dare they!_


Again...my thoughts.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 1, 2015)

Maharani said:


> ...they're building more at the back there too I see .


Those will be the offices as set out in the planning permission. I'd imagine there will be more day time life to the place when those are occupied.  I dropped in and there were a few people enjoying the sunshine at lunch time today. I don't know what the schedule is but progress seems slow on the offices.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Those will be the offices as set out in the planning permission. I'd imagine there will be more day time life to the place when those are occupied.  I dropped in and there were a few people enjoying the sunshine at lunch time today. I don't know what the schedule is but progress seems slow on the offices.



Apparently a month behind. But close

Trader I spoke said they need the offices to open to inject a bit of daytime  life.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Shit enough to make a list of the top ten shit top ten lists?


Given my understanding of food courts yes very shit indeed.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2015)

Winot said:


> I think 'food court' in this sense is an Anglo-Asian term.  I seem to remember that Singapore has lots of them.


They are all chain restaurants in the top of shopping malls though, aren't they?!


----------



## Winot (Oct 1, 2015)

Manter said:


> They are all chain restaurants in the top of shopping malls though, aren't they?!



Damn you for stretching my knowledge of Singaporean dining options beyond its capacity.


----------



## Manter (Oct 1, 2015)

Winot said:


> Damn you for stretching my knowledge of Singaporean dining options beyond its capacity.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Imagine! A regular poster expressing a personal opinion of the place after visiting several times. On a thread dedicated to discussing the place. _How very dare they!_


To be fair though, following me giving a personal opinion and the sarcastic reply received below I now tend to refrain. 


editor said:


> It sounds like heaven on earth. Such joy! Such friendliness! Such a beautiful burger! Truly totes amazeballs.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 1, 2015)

Served


----------



## Rushy (Oct 1, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> To be fair though, following me giving a personal opinion and the sarcastic reply received below I now tend to refrain.


Your contrary opinions might confuse future historians and researchers.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 1, 2015)

Oh bejeeeez...this thread...


----------



## ddraig (Oct 1, 2015)

Winot said:


> Do keep us updated on your lack of interest.


Dick


----------



## ddraig (Oct 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Served


Weak


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> To be fair though, following me giving a personal opinion and the sarcastic reply received below I now tend to refrain.


My oh my, what a delicate, sensitive little flower you've turned into.

Its almost like you've completely forgotten the kind of thing you like to dish out all over the place:


Mr Retro said:


> And if I was allowed to reply in kind I'd fucking fillet you.


Yeah! Fucking fillet me! Wooo!


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> My oh my, what a delicate, sensitive little flower you've turned into.
> 
> Its almost like you've completely forgotten the kind of thing you like to dish out all over the place:
> Yeah! Fucking fillet me! Wooo!


Just pointing out your hypocrisy really. 

"Kind of thing I like to dish out all over the place?" All over the place? Really?


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Just pointing out your hypocrisy really.


Please keep your shitty opinions to yourself rather than trying to trash this thread with arse-dull personal beef that most people don't give a fuck about. Thanks.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Please keep your shitty opinions to yourself rather than trying to trash this thread with arse-dull personal beef that most people don't give a fuck about. Thanks.


Oh my what a delicate, sensitive, little flower you've turned into.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 1, 2015)

"I'd fucking fillet you"

A rather violent turn of phrase really....


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 1, 2015)

See I got a warning for _saying exactly what the editor said to me
_
So I am *not* allowed reply in kind. And if it's not the very definition of hypocrisy I don't know what is.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> See I got a warning for _saying exactly what the editor said to me
> _
> So I am *not* allowed reply in kind. And if it's not the very definition of hypocrisy I don't know what is.


You came in today desperate to kick off the personal beef again, dredging up a quote from fucking _August_ and then when you got the reaction you so dearly craved, you start to whine and then try to disrupt the thread all over again with your obsessive personal grudge. 

You were warned to stop but carried on. And now it's time to stop.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 1, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> See I got a warning for _saying exactly what the editor said to me
> _
> So I am *not* allowed reply in kind. And if it's not the very definition of hypocrisy I don't know what is.



Shocking, but unfortunately not very surprising


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2015)

This thread is about Pop Brixton. If anyone has any issues with the moderating, take them to the feedback forum.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Shocking, but unfortunately not very surprising


Oh, here we go...again...


----------



## Maharani (Oct 1, 2015)

editor said:


> This thread is about Pop Brixton. If anyone has any issues with the moderating, take them to the feedback forum.


I bet you feel like a parrot sometimes ed.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2015)

Maharani said:


> I bet you feel like a parrot sometimes ed.


It's just fucking depressing and always the same handful of individuals. I care passionately about Brixton - that's why I set up these forums -  and it seems some of them are far more interested in petty point scoring than actually contributing anything to the debate.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 1, 2015)

Well he does repeat the phrase 'green oasis' on command


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 1, 2015)




----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 2, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Maybe this will be more your thing? Local artists are displaying their work at a meet and greet type event at Pop on 23rd Sept during the day. The gallery features lots of local artists and focuses on Brixton's heritage and culture. There's a free seminar and tour hosted by Squire and Partners. Evelyn Grace Academy seem to be involved.



More free art stuff this weekend

Pop Brixton


----------



## deadringer (Oct 2, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> More free art stuff this weekend
> 
> Pop Brixton




Just been reading some of the bits and bobs on the right hand side of that link you've supplied there. Plenty of non food and drink stuff going on there for those not into that side of things. Not sure the jewelly box is up my alley (prices starting at £3), or making my own charm bangle, but there is certainly more to it than it being Brixtons biggest pub.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

Indeed. It's Brixton's blandest club.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 2, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> More free art stuff this weekend
> 
> Pop Brixton



Looks good:


----------



## T & P (Oct 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Indeed. It's Brixton's blandest club.


Offering, it seems, far far more than any club in Brixton does. But at this stage I suspect they could offer a cure to cancer and still be savaged for it.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

T & P said:


> Offering, it seems, far far more than any club in Brixton does. But at this stage I suspect they could offer a cure to cancer and still be savaged for it.



Are they offering a cure a cancer?


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Are they offering a cure a cancer?


If I go clubbing, I like old fashioned things like warmth, a roof, seats to sit on, tables to put my beer on, beers in actual glasses rather than squishy plastic containers, a late licence, a dancefloor, a fuck off sound system, great lighting and all the other things that are preferable to standing about _al fresco_ style in a chilly container park in October.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

Not a cure for cancer?


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Not a cure for cancer?


It's not the first thing I'm looking for when I'm hitting the lager.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

editor said:


> It's not the first thing I'm looking for when I'm hitting the lager.



Well, be thankful Pop offers 'far far more than any club in Brixton does'.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Well, be thankful Pop offers 'far far more than any club in Brixton does'.


You what?!


----------



## ddraig (Oct 2, 2015)

post 4368


----------



## leanderman (Oct 2, 2015)

T&P appears to be contrasting Pop with clubs.

Not likening Pop to clubs, as Nanker P did.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

leanderman said:


> T&P appears to be contrasting Pop with clubs.
> 
> Not likening Pop to clubs, as Nanker P did.



I think all of you are taking a flippant comment way too seriously.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 2, 2015)

It's a common problem on Urban, but why break with tradition?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 2, 2015)

One of the brixton thread's greatest strengths is comparing things with other things. When I need my fix of things being compared with other things I head straight for the Brixton thread. It's great.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

Gosh, the whole of wacky racers just turned up...


----------



## teuchter (Oct 2, 2015)

Has anyone noticed how the Tube station is a really rubbish cinema? Compared to the Ritzy? 

It's awful.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 2, 2015)

I will defend the tube to the death as a cheaper form of transport than the Ritzy (and more community minded to boot)


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

What was that thing Jonathan Swift said about satire and glass and seeing faces?


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 2, 2015)

I imagine it was pretty swiftian


----------



## teuchter (Oct 2, 2015)

"Imagine a green oasis"


----------



## Manter (Oct 2, 2015)

We just had take out from Zoe's Ghana Kitchen and it was amazing food. Some of it was too hot for me to eat, as I am a wimp- the Northerner inhaled that stuff- but really, really tasty.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 2, 2015)

Manter said:


> We just had take out from Zoe's Ghana Kitchen and it was amazing food. Some of it was too hot for me to eat, as I am a wimp- the Northerner inhaled that stuff- but really, really tasty.


It's great isn't it?


----------



## Manter (Oct 2, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> It's great isn't it?


They had run out of lamb- I wanted to taste the lamb- but the beef was amazing. And we tried that fish oil chilli sauce. That defeated me


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

Manter said:


> We just had take out from Zoe's Ghana Kitchen and it was amazing food. Some of it was too hot for me to eat, as I am a wimp- the Northerner inhaled that stuff- but really, really tasty.



What did you have? What was the cost?


----------



## Manter (Oct 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> What did you have? What was the cost?


Beef kebabs, jolloff rice, scary sauce stuff, some wrappy bread that was a bit like lavash but different and crispy kale. Just less than £20


----------



## Manter (Oct 2, 2015)

Fed 2


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 2, 2015)

Not bad prices...


----------



## Manter (Oct 2, 2015)

I thought they were good. We got 3 kebabs for £8, and they had a lot of meat on them. May have been 8.99.... Can't remember. Anyway, I have no idea who Zoe is but she can cook! 

(My tongue still tingles a little bit though....)


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 3, 2015)

Manter said:


> I thought they were good. We got 3 kebabs for £8, and they had a lot of meat on them. May have been 8.99.... Can't remember. Anyway, I have no idea who Zoe is but she can cook!


I don't think it's Zoe but one of the owners is half Ghanaian, half Irish whose mother left the little town of Bantry at a very young age on her own to make a life for herself in London. 

She met her husband here and used to proudly bring her family back to spend summers in Bantry. In those times that was a brave thing to do. 

Now (not sure if it's) Zoe, whose mother arrived in London without a pot to piss in, has a very successful business in Pop. Making people happy with the great food she serves. Uplifting story isn't it? And you don even need an FoI request to get it.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 3, 2015)

I'm sure lots of the business owners in the arches have similar stories to tell....equally as channel five afternoon true life movie moving...but their stories don't get to be 'uplifting' because they're being fucked over as a result of the continued rent hikes implemented in the slipstream of the gentrification that Pop, the village, and Lambeth are stuffing the face of.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 3, 2015)

Has anyone examined NR's Arches rent hikes to see how they compare locally?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 3, 2015)

If you've had a business in the same spot since the 60s and the rent suddenly ramps up by a massive X% does it matter if it's comparable?

If it hadn't risen comparitively over time is it reasonable to just increase it to match in one hefty hike?


----------



## Winot (Oct 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> If you've had a business in the same spot since the 60s and the rent suddenly ramps up by a massive X% does it matter if it's comparable?
> 
> If it hadn't risen comparitively over time is it reasonable to just increase it to match in one hefty hike?



It doesn't matter to the tenant, no. And I think it's entirely reasonable to expect a landlord to go easy in its treatment of a long-term tenant in an attempt to preserve continuity (particularly when the landlord hasn't done much over the years and is a public body). Whether the phased increase of rent to 2020 (or whatever it is) *is* reasonable? Who knows. Factors such as what other rent hikes are being applied will play a part in that assessment though.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'm sure lots of the business owners in the arches have similar stories to tell....equally as channel five afternoon true life movie moving...but their stories don't get to be 'uplifting' because they're being fucked over as a result of the continued rent hikes implemented in the slipstream of the gentrification that Pop, the village, and Lambeth are stuffing the face of.


The main reason they aren't really uplifting is that they are the exception rather than the rule.

But that's not the fault of Pop.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> If you've had a business in the same spot since the 60s and the rent suddenly ramps up by a massive X% does it matter if it's comparable?
> 
> If it hadn't risen comparitively over time is it reasonable to just increase it to match in one hefty hike?



It's a doubling phased in over six years to £53sq ft. 

Rather than a sudden massive hike. 

But it may well be excessive. It certainly sounds a lot. 

I was wondering if anyone commercial knew how this compares locally.


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 3, 2015)

Durr...this link won't embed. South Park's new entertainment district Sodasopa:
South Park - The City Part of Town - “The Lofts at SoDoSoPa”


----------



## Tricky Skills (Oct 8, 2015)

World of Wurst has picked up a poor hygiene rating from Lambeth Council: 1 out of 5. Major improvements necessary with poor structure compliance.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 8, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> World of Wurst has picked up a poor hygiene rating from Lambeth Council: 1 out of 5. Major improvements necessary with poor structure compliance.


Not just them:
Mamas Jerk = 1/5 too
Mama's Jerk Food Hygiene rating from London Borough of Lambeth on Scores On The Doors


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Naaaasty pop gonna give you the poops


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Green pooasis


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

No excuse for that. I love that hygiene site, anytime I go somewhere new I check it. It's not like these places can't get 5 if they want to. The guidelines are simple to follow


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 8, 2015)

And good to see the Beehive romps home with a shiny 5/5


----------



## ash (Oct 8, 2015)

A squitty 1 for Khans as well I see.


----------



## Winot (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> No excuse for that. I love that hygiene site, anytime I go somewhere new I check it. It's not like these places can't get 5 if they want to. The guidelines are simple to follow



You heartless capitalist - can't you see that improving food hygiene is nothing more than gentrification by the (ahem) back door?


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

Urban75 favourite Khans only scores 1 by the way.

Edit: ash said the same. To put 1 in perspective many of those butchers in Electric Avenue get 1. Bleurgh!


----------



## brixtonblade (Oct 8, 2015)

Wow

Loads places with 1

Agile rabbit 
Asmara
Happy dumplings 
Kao sarn 
Effra Tavern 
Sesami in herne hill

Wing tai and nour too. I thought they only graded restaurants

Golden Canton on Railton got 0. I dread to think about that


----------



## technical (Oct 8, 2015)

0 doesn't bear thinking about

Where do you find the scores?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 8, 2015)

technical said:


> 0 doesn't bear thinking about
> 
> Where do you find the scores?


from here:
World Of Wurst Food Hygiene rating from London Borough of Lambeth on Scores On The Doors


----------



## steeeve (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Urban75 favourite Khans only scores 1 by the way.
> 
> Edit: ash said the same. To put 1 in perspective many of those butchers in Electric Avenue get 1. Bleurgh!



Curry paradise is way better than Khan's and gets a 5


----------



## MissL (Oct 8, 2015)

honest burgers only gets a 2 - ouch

not surprised about yum d getting a 1 - the food is nice but i've avoided going recently due to the dirt and grim you can see even in the restaurant part never mind the kitchen. rank.

nice to see ken's fish bar getting a 5 - love that place


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Urban75 favourite Khans only scores 1 by the way.



So what?


----------



## editor (Oct 8, 2015)

MissL said:


> honest burgers only gets a 2 - ouch
> 
> not surprised about yum d getting a 1 - the food is nice but i've avoided going recently due to the dirt and grim you can see even in the restaurant part never mind the kitchen. rank.
> 
> nice to see ken's fish bar getting a 5 - love that place


Honest Burgers low ranking is surprising seeing as they're a relatively new and well funded multi million company with aggressive expansion plans.


----------



## trabuquera (Oct 8, 2015)

No surprise to me, got seriously dodgy effects from a dishonest Honest Burger within the last couple of months (I eat there once a year...)
But in all honesty I don't think these ratings would affect where I ate in future. Been in the trade and I know how arbitrary some (not all) of "the rules" are.
Nour probably get hammered because ... well it's obvious, isn't it? But it would still never stop me shopping there.


----------



## Winot (Oct 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Honest Burgers low ranking is surprising seeing as they're a relatively new and well funded multi million company with aggressive expansion plans.



Agreed.


----------



## brixtonblade (Oct 8, 2015)

MissL said:


> honest burgers only gets a 2 - ouch
> 
> not surprised about yum d getting a 1 - the food is nice but i've avoided going recently due to the dirt and grim you can see even in the restaurant part never mind the kitchen. rank.
> 
> nice to see ken's fish bar getting a 5 - love that place



Ken's is the best

I tried Jimmy's recently for research purposes and it's good but not as good as ken's


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So what?


So it's a bit scary right? It was recommended to me on here and we must have had 50 takeaways from there over the years. The Christmas curry is there. It's an urban75 favourite, loads of us eat from and it scores 1 on hygiene ratings. 

I certainly care about that but if it's a "so what" from you, well good man, happy shitting!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> So it's a bit scary right? It was recommended to me on here and we must have had 50 takeaways from there over the years. The Christmas curry is there. It's an urban75 favourite, loads of us eat from and it scores 1 on hygiene ratings.
> 
> I certainly care about that but if it's a "so what" from you, well good man, happy shitting!



So what does Khan's ratings have to do with the subject of this thread, i.e. Pop Brixton? 

There is another food ratings in brixton thread elsewhere.


----------



## Manter (Oct 8, 2015)

Yeah, god forbid an urban thread doesn't stay strictly on topic......


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Manter said:


> Yeah, god forbid an urban thread doesn't stay strictly on topic......



Well, we can but try.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So what does Khan's ratings have to do with the subject of this thread, i.e. Pop Brixton?
> 
> There is another food ratings in brixton thread elsewhere.


In the last page or so 7 or 8 people are talking about something other the subject of this thread, i.e. Pop Brixton. For the sake of consistency why don't you similarity question those with a 'so what'? 

If you prefer to talk about hygiene ratings (that's what they are, not food ratings, food ratings are a different thing entirely) why don't you fuck off over to that thread ?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> In the last page or so 7 or 8 people are talking about something other the subject of this thread, i.e. Pop Brixton. For the sake of consistency why don't you similarity question those with a 'so what'?
> 
> If you prefer to talk about hygiene ratings (that's what they are, not food ratings, food ratings are a different thing entirely) why don't you fuck off over to that thread ?



I didn't start the subject, shit stick, I just wondered why you felt a need to mention Khans, which has zero connection to Pop, is not relevant in any way to the thread and offers no additional insight into the matter. There's probably 15 food places between Pop and Khans with a 1 food rating, why pluck Khans out the air?

Would it be because you just wanted to be all....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> not food ratings, food ratings are a different thing entirely?



I'm not dull enough to care to know the difference, yer low flying cunt.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

((((Nanker))))


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Lick my soapy sink sponge...


----------



## Maharani (Oct 8, 2015)

We need to rename this thread: 'Pop Brixton (playground for kids) Pope's Road development'.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

On steeeve advice (and at the risk of drawing Nanker Phelge considerable self-appointed moderator wrath) we are wait for a delivery from Curry Paradise with much anticipation.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> On steeeve advice (and at the risk of drawing Nanker Phelge considerable self-appointed moderator wrath) we are wait for a delivery from Curry Paradise with much anticipation.



I hope you don't choke on cardamom pod


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 8, 2015)

ooh... is there a Khan's Christmas curry thread yet?


----------



## steeeve (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> On steeeve advice (and at the risk of drawing Nanker Phelge considerable self-appointed moderator wrath) we are wait for a delivery from Curry Paradise with much anticipation.


Hope they don't disappoint!


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

steeeve said:


> Hope they don't disappoint!


It was great! Agree it's better than Khans by a good bit


----------



## Tricky Skills (Oct 8, 2015)

gaijingirl said:


> ooh... is there a Khan's Christmas curry thread yet?



I heard that this year it will be a trip to Pop, outdoor dining in mid-winter and pints of plastic beer.

Who's in?


----------



## elmpp (Oct 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Honest Burgers low ranking is surprising seeing as they're a relatively new and well funded multi million company with aggressive expansion plans.


You see a correlation with new expanding multi million companies and health hygiene?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 8, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> I heard that this year it will be a trip to Pop, outdoor dining in mid-winter and pints of plastic beer.
> 
> Who's in?


If I can't eat in the shadow of a giant fibreglass spade and fork, I'm not interested.


----------



## editor (Oct 8, 2015)

elmpp said:


> You see a correlation with new expanding multi million companies and health hygiene?


You no doubt think differently, but to me it's a lot more understandable that a cash-strapped family business in an old property might find it harder to meet modern standards compared to a new, rapidly-expanding multi million chain with plenty of resources and capital to invest in the latest equipment and manpower.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

editor said:


> You no doubt think differently, but to me it's a lot more understandable that a cash-strapped family business in an old property might find it harder to meet modern standards compared to a new, rapidly-expanding multi million chain with plenty of resources and capital to invest in the latest equipment and manpower.


For me it doesn't matter. For sure I can have more sympathy for the cash strapped family business and indeed it's more understandable, but it doesn't matter. Nobody selling food to the public should be in business unless they can meet high standards of hygiene. It's not a difficult thing to achieve and if it's too difficult for them, they should try another business.


----------



## editor (Oct 8, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> For me it doesn't matter. For sure I can have more sympathy for the cash strapped family business and indeed it's more understandable, but it doesn't matter. Nobody selling food to the public should be in business unless they can meet high standards of hygiene. It's not a difficult thing to achieve and if it's too difficult for them, they should try another business.


Honest Burgers seem to be doing well enough out of it, and you were quite happy to enthuse  about the "incredible" quality of their food recently. If people like you keep going there and recommending them, then I imagine they'll stay in business for a long time yet.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 8, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> Golden Canton on Railton got 0. I dread to think about that


Shit, that's my favourite Chinese.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 8, 2015)

editor said:


> Honest Foods seems to be doing well enough out of it, and you were quite happy to enthuse  about the "incredible" quality of their food recently. If people like you keep going there and recommending them, then I imagine they'll stay in business for a long time yet.


I love it. When I quoted something last week you said about me in August you ridiculed it for being from _*fucking August. *_But you go back and quote me from April and May . Fucking brilliant . Did you go searching for my quotes to then completely miss the point? How long did it take you?

I stand by what I said. *Nobody *selling food to the public should be in business unless they can meet high levels of hygiene. I was in Honest once and I really enjoyed it. I won't be going back with their 2 rating. Unfortunately taste is no indication of the quality of the hygiene. You get that I hope? 

I don't give a fuck if they are a mom and pop operation or a multi million pound business. There is no excuse for a low rating.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Honest Foods seems to be doing well enough out of it, and you were quite happy to enthuse  about the "incredible" quality of their food recently. If people like you keep going there and recommending them, then I imagine they'll stay in business for a long time yet.


You mean Honest Burgers?


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 9, 2015)

POP got nominated in the Culture section of the Time Out Local Awards for Brixton. It won't win it's up against the Windmill venue


----------



## elmpp (Oct 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Honest Foods seems to be doing well enough out of it, and you were quite happy to enthuse  about the "incredible" quality of their food recently. If people like you keep going there and recommending them, then I imagine they'll stay in business for a long time yet.


Hygeine standards I'd say are almost exclusively down to work practices, labeling used food by day etc. A larger chain may employ internal inspections to ensure standards but other than that I don't really see any scope for linking turnover with hygeine, especially when the list shows such a variance as a whole.

I think it's another case of this company making your bad list


----------



## Hoss (Oct 9, 2015)

Hygiene Ratings seem to be very much dependent on who inspects the venue. A friend of mine has a small restaurant with impeccable standards of cleanliness, all food stores and labelled as it should be etc etc. They expected a 5 star rating and were awarded a 3. Marked down for things way beyond their control, such as size of the kitchen vs number of people employed. When they asked the inspector what they could do to improve the answer was an indifferent shrug and 'not really sure' or something to that effect.

I suspect the low ratings on some of the small Brixton village venues are more to do with size of and proximity of kitchen to customers, than any blatant disregard of food hygiene and cleanliness.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 9, 2015)

Hoss said:


> Hygiene Ratings seem to be very much dependent on who inspects the venue. A friend of mine has a small restaurant with impeccable standards of cleanliness, all food stores and labelled as it should be etc etc. They expected a 5 star rating and were awarded a 3. Marked down for things way beyond their control, such as size of the kitchen vs number of people employed. When they asked the inspector what they could do to improve the answer was an indifferent shrug and 'not really sure' or something to that effect.
> 
> I suspect the low ratings on some of the small Brixton village venues are more to do with size of and proximity of kitchen to customers, than any blatant disregard of food hygiene and cleanliness.


Definitely this. 

You do get X amount of jobsworths in the catering inspection field.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 9, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Definitely this.
> 
> You do get X amount of jobsworths in the catering inspection field.



You do in most fields. Is there an appeal process to challenge a rating?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 9, 2015)

I agree that anyone getting into the food business needs to adhere to the hygiene standards for no other reason that it is just good business practice that protects both business, employees and customers. The standards serve everyone in the end and failing to meet a good standard is just poor practice.

I wouldn't shrug off poor practice by a car mechanic because they are an independent, and meeting the standards might be more costly to them than a national company.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 9, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> You do in most fields. Is there an appeal process to challenge a rating?


Yeah, you can appeal and the owner or manager of the business also has a ‘right to reply’. This is different from an appeal. It allows the owner to tell potential customers how the business has improved hygiene or to say if there were unusual circumstances at the time of the inspection. A business’s right to reply is published online by the local authority with the business’s hygiene rating.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 9, 2015)

Maharani said:


> You mean Honest Burgers?



Looks like in the rush to get out a personal point scoring post a typo has occurred


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Looks like in the rush to get out a personal point scoring post a typo has occurred


 Why not try arguing the points raised - all of which were valid and relevant - rather than piping up with some patronising bullshit about what you _think_ the intention behind my post was_?_

For the record, I have nothing against Honest Burgers although I find them wildly overrated.


----------



## uk benzo (Oct 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Why not try arguing the points raised - all of which were valid and relevant - rather than piping up with some patronising bullshit about what you _think_ the intention behind my post was_?_
> 
> For the record, I have nothing against Honest Burgers although I find them wildly overrated.



I have no intention on wading in on this pop thread, but I would have to concur- honest burgers is way overrated. One of the the blandest burgers I have ever had.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2015)

Winot said:


> You heartless capitalist - can't you see that improving food hygiene is nothing more than gentrification by the (ahem) back door?


Ha bloody hah. Food hygiene affects everyone, so making unfunny "jokes" comparing it to gentrification is stupid.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 9, 2015)

editor said:


> Why not try arguing the points raised - all of which were valid and relevant - rather than piping up with some patronising bullshit about what you _think_ the intention behind my post was_?_
> 
> For the record, I have nothing against Honest Burgers although I find them wildly overrated.



Never been to Honest, but if they are anything like Henry Burgers I'd definitely agree on them being overrated. In time the crapper ones will disappear hopefully.


----------



## wurlycurly (Oct 9, 2015)

sleaterkinney said:


> Shit, that's my favourite Chinese.


Mine too. In its defence, I've never felt bad after eating food from there.


----------



## elmpp (Oct 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Why not try arguing the points raised - all of which were valid and relevant - rather than piping up with some patronising bullshit about what you _think_ the intention behind my post was_?_
> 
> For the record, I have nothing against Honest Burgers although I find them wildly overrated.


You're vegetarian. How can you possibly feel in a position to judge properly whether it is overrated?

I see a bit of a pattern here. You basically snipe places you wouldn't frequent. Honest burger/shrub & shutter/fromage and not forgetting the NZ wine shop slandering


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 10, 2015)

Tedxbrixton is being streamed at Pop today for those couldn't get tickets to the event. Kicks off at midday I think


----------



## Tricky Skills (Oct 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Tedxbrixton is being streamed at Pop today for those couldn't get tickets to the event. Kicks off at midday I think



Anyone know what happened to the original idea to stage TEDx at Pop?


----------



## Maharani (Oct 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> You're vegetarian. How can you possibly feel in a position to judge properly whether it is overrated?
> 
> I see a bit of a pattern here. You basically snipe places you wouldn't frequent. Honest burger/shrub & shutter/fromage and not forgetting the NZ wine shop slandering


I hear a parrot on the thread.

Give it a rest would you.


----------



## madolesance (Oct 10, 2015)

Also at the Ritzy.



SpamMisery said:


> Tedxbrixton is being streamed at Pop today for those couldn't get tickets to the event. Kicks off at midday I think


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> You're vegetarian. How can you possibly feel in a position to judge properly whether it is overrated?


Because I've been with friends who ate the meat options while I tried the vegetarian ones, and the verdict was that it was nice but overrated. I don't frequent the Shrub & Shutter because I can't afford £10 cocktails and their pricing, proximity and lack of engagement with the council estate opposite plays a role in my opinion of them. I can't say I have an overwhelming desire to hang with the crowd there either. My neighbourhood, my choices.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> You're vegetarian. How can you possibly feel in a position to judge properly whether it is overrated?


I can still judge the quality of a veggie burger, the chips, the sides, the drink, the service, the value for money, at any burger place.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> I can still judge the quality of a veggie burger, the chips, the sides, the drink, the service, the value for money, at any burger place.


Exactly - and I would have thought that was really basic common sense to anyone sensible.


----------



## elmpp (Oct 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Because I've been with friends who ate the meat options while I tried the vegetarian ones, and the verdict was that it was nice but overrated. I don't frequent the Shrub & Shutter because I can't afford £10 cocktails and their pricing, proximity and lack of engagement with the council estate opposite plays a role in my opinion of them. I can't say I have an overwhelming desire to hang with the crowd there either. My neighbourhood, my choices.


Tasting by proxy. No mention of that when you put forth your opinions as your own

And I see I got another warning for last post. You can't slander businesses without merit then oppress commenting on it


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 10, 2015)

As burgers go, Honest Burger are quite good. Nowadays good burgers are fairly common but when they first started they were a long away in front of other places.


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## Maharani (Oct 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Tasting by proxy. No mention of that when you put forth your opinions as your own
> 
> And I see I got another warning for last post. You can't slander businesses without merit then oppress commenting on it


Go, get a life...


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 10, 2015)

Nice to see were on familiar ground arguing about Honest Burger in the Pop thread. Can we do C+F next?! Can we? Can we?


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Tasting by proxy. No mention of that when you put forth your opinions as your own
> 
> You can't slander businesses without merit then oppress commenting on it


My personal belief is that Honest Burgers are nice but overrated. That opinion is based in my own experiences and that of my friends. That is not "slanderous" by any sane definition.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 10, 2015)

eveyrone knows a vegi's opinion counts for less don't they?


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2015)

ddraig said:


> eveyrone knows a vegi's opinion counts for less don't they?



When it comers to meat products? Yes


----------



## Belushi (Oct 10, 2015)

I've only been to Honest Burgers once, it was okay but no better than other posh burgers I've had, pretty bog standard stuff.


----------



## editor (Oct 10, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I've only been to Honest Burgers once, it was okay but no better than other posh burgers I've had, pretty bog standard stuff.


Slanderous! 

After all the hype when they opened I was expecting something exceptional but it really wasn't that amazing. But good luck to them - they seem to have found a formula that has queues of people lining up to hand over their money for a fairly average product.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 10, 2015)

If we have to talk burgers and stay off thread, I had a really delicious halloumi burger with the biggest bag of fries I've ever seen AND a drink for £7.00 at meat liquor. 'Twas a lunch special. Burger was yum as was the price. Couldn't finish the fries though...


----------



## leanderman (Oct 10, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I've only been to Honest Burgers once, it was okay but no better than other posh burgers I've had, pretty bog standard stuff.



They are the best burgers I have had in London, cheaper and better than posh places such as Byron. 

But, after all, it's just a burger.


----------



## twistedAM (Oct 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> They are the best burgers I have had in London, cheaper and better than posh places such as Byron.
> 
> But, after all, it's just a burger.



They're simple which is a plus point in my book; hate those huge sloppy creations. As you say it's just a burger - better foods are available.


----------



## Hoss (Oct 10, 2015)

Of the 'posh' burger joints that I've tried, Honest have a patty which actually tastes of quality, well-aged beef. Many of the other joints rely on sauces and sloppy toppings and go heavily for the 'dirty' burger experience, which doesn't really do it for my refined and well-trained palate


----------



## deadringer (Oct 10, 2015)

These fancy burgers are fine for a weekend lunchtime treat, not exactly what I'd want on an evening meal out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Tasting by proxy. No mention of that when you put forth your opinions as your own
> 
> And I see I got another warning for last post. You can't slander businesses without merit then oppress commenting on it



You realise that "slander" isn't what's happening (unless you have the brain of a prawn), yet you still use the term. A cynic might conclude that you're working off some personal animosity here, and merely using the thread as a vehicle.


----------



## elmpp (Oct 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Honest Burgers low ranking is surprising seeing as they're a relatively new and well funded multi million company with aggressive expansion plans.


This is to what I refer. Absolutely meritless conflation of turnover with hygeine standard then negative reviews based on friends'

Anyway, that's me out


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 10, 2015)

elmpp said:


> This is to what I refer. Absolutely meritless conflation of turnover with hygeine standard then negative reviews based on friends'
> 
> Anyway, that's me out



Also, aggressive expansionism is well known to cause good hygiene


----------



## uk benzo (Oct 10, 2015)

leanderman said:


> They are the best burgers I have had in London, cheaper and better than posh places such as Byron.
> 
> But, after all, it's just a burger.



have you tried stax off Carnaby Street? I don't wash afterwards because I try to savour the flavour of their burgers for as long as possible.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 10, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Tedxbrixton is being streamed at Pop today for those couldn't get tickets to the event. Kicks off at midday I think


(serious and sober critique here) How did you find it?
I was originally going to go to Conway Hall for their Rally: Rise up Against TTIP! to hear the likes of John McDonell and Natalie Bennett rail against this new perversion of capitalism whereby American corporations can sue governments which impede their rapacious ways.

However I was très faim after a stint on a stall in the market today, and desperate for food I watched the tail end of TEDx Brixton streamed into my very own kitchen in Coldharbour Lane whilst cooking some delicious Lidl sweet chilli chicken.

I saw part of a presentation by an Oxford Professor of Psychology who is experimenting on electrical stimulation of the brain to improve performance at "math" (don't try this at home he said. I could tell him where you can get it round here - there is always the ECT suite at the Maudsley!)

Then there was the young woman you suffered/was gifted with dyslexia and synaesthesia (hearing colours/seeing music - an experience reported by the composers Scriabin and Messiaen to name but two). She was into designing floral patterned clothes which seemed a good choice to deploy her skills.

Finally (before a more intellectually relaxed musical performance ended the show) there was very intense lecture on the amazing qualities of crystals by a research associate from Imperial College. Crystals are the key to curing cancer - that is when they are not growing to 5 times the height of a human being in caves in Mexico.

Well I feel very guilty for not getting off my bum and going to Holborn to listen to John McDonnell and Natalie Bennett and other worthy speakers on TIPP - which I reckon might have more effect on Brixton than anything I heard from the TEDx live relay.

I think TEDx is a kind of touchy feely cult. Not like Scientology - more like a cross between New Age and the Fabian Society.

The other thing apparent to me was the age reach. I could not see anyone in TEDx Brixton older than 40. So maybe I just out of touch. I quite like the Conway Hall 'cos their average attendee on a Sunday morning is probably aged 75!


----------



## AnotherAmbition (Oct 11, 2015)

Honest likely got a low rating because of serving medium burgers, how they should be but doesn't seem to compute with these standardised ratings systems.


----------



## Cowley (Oct 12, 2015)

uk benzo said:


> I have no intention on wading in on this pop thread, but I would have to concur- honest burgers is way overrated. One of the the blandest burgers I have ever had.



I thought I was the only one that didn't rate them, I really tried to like the place but was left very disappointed.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 13, 2015)

At the risk of posting on-topic (I joke, I joke), has anyone heard about the 'time bank' of voluntary work by Pop leaseholders that Philipe championed at the Market House Q&A? Anyone heard about how it's been used, what groups have benefited, etc?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 13, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> At the risk of posting on-topic (I joke, I joke), has anyone heard about the 'time bank' of voluntary work by Pop leaseholders that Philipe championed at the Market House Q&A? Anyone heard about how it's been used, what groups have benefited, etc?


Not quite the same thing, but I learned today that sixteen apprentices were taken on from a Lambeth building school for the Pop build and were paid Living Wage during their apprenticeships. No more details, I'm afraid.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 13, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Not quite the same thing, but I learned today that sixteen apprentices were taken on from a Lambeth building school for the Pop build and were paid Living Wage during their apprenticeships. No more details, I'm afraid.



Bastards: Involving the community and paying properly!


----------



## elmpp (Oct 13, 2015)

I've heard the living wage is overrated


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Not quite the same thing, but I learned today that sixteen apprentices were taken on from a Lambeth building school for the Pop build and were paid Living Wage during their apprenticeships. No more details, I'm afraid.


But an apprenticeship is 4 years usually. Pop didn't take that long to build.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> But an apprenticeship is 4 years usually. Pop didn't take that long to build.


They were there for just four to six months and the work was part time.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 14, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> But an apprenticeship is 4 years usually. Pop didn't take that long to build.


Pop have failed to provide something that would be impossible for them to provide. Unbelievable. Well done for uncovering this. They need to be held to account.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 14, 2015)

Of course it was part time and expected to be for four to six months. They were at college and that was the scheduled build time.  

As the original CTA  / Edible Bus Stop Grow proposal said under the title The Process: "All shipping containers are fitted out on site with teams of apprentices led by CTA".

It's appears that they have done exactly what was proposed in the original Grow proposal. No doubt they should be ruthlessly held to account for having done so.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 14, 2015)

Still no plastic spade and fork atop the entrance container though, as per original artist impression, so your point is moot I'm afraid.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Still no plastic spade and fork atop the entrance container though, as per original artist impression, so your point is moot I'm afraid.


Not much in the way of the original horticultural bonanza we were promised either, but - hey! - we've got an amazing huge pub with a big sound system, lots of imported wine on tap, multinational 'takeoevers' and a place to watch the rugby, so it's all WIN! WIN! WIN! It's what the locals were crying out for!


----------



## T & P (Oct 14, 2015)

I think my Ebola analogy stands...


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 14, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Of course it was part time and expected to be for four to six months. They were at college and that was the scheduled build time.
> 
> As the original CTA  / Edible Bus Stop Grow proposal said under the title The Process: "All shipping containers are fitted out on site with teams of apprentices led by CTA".
> 
> It's appears that they have done exactly what was proposed in the original Grow proposal. No doubt they should be ruthlessly held to account for having done so.



If temp jobs count in the projected employment figures then the arrival of a luxuriantly bearded Pop Santa and numerous saucily clad little helpers selling shots should take us a few steps closer to the target number


----------



## teuchter (Oct 14, 2015)

T & P said:


> I think my Ebola analogy stands...


"It's all very well for Pop Brixton to have found a cure for Ebola. But why didn't they start working on it back in 1976 when the first known outbreak occured?"


----------



## Rushy (Oct 14, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> If temp jobs count in the projected employment figures then the arrival of a luxuriantly bearded Pop Santa and numerous saucily clad little helpers selling shots should take us a few steps closer to the target number


I hadn't heard of the saucy Santa jobs. Is this something you've applied for?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Of course it was part time and expected to be for four to six months. They were at college and that was the scheduled build time.
> 
> As the original CTA  / Edible Bus Stop Grow proposal said under the title The Process: "All shipping containers are fitted out on site with teams of apprentices led by CTA".
> 
> It's appears that they have done exactly what was proposed in the original Grow proposal. No doubt they should be ruthlessly held to account for having done so.


Why the 'of course'? The reason I asked was because your post implied that the apprentices were full time for 4 years on Pop. That's what 'taking on apprentices ' generally means - taken on for the full length of the apprenticeship. And before you make another patronising post part of my job is to encourage people to consider apprenticeships and work with the HR function on that.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 15, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Why the 'of course'? The reason I asked was because your post implied that the apprentices were full time for 4 years on Pop. That's what 'taking on apprentices ' generally means - taken on for the full length of the apprenticeship. And before you make another patronising post part of my job is to encourage people to consider apprenticeships and work with the HR function on that.



"Of course", as I said, because they were college students and the project was only ever going to last so long.

I'm happy to accept that your company seeks full time four year apprenticeships by preference, and they probably have all sorts of good reasons for doing so. You just need to understand that there is a world outside of your company where the word apprenticeship is not narrow company specific jargon. No common definition of the term I can find limits an apprenticeship to being a) full time or b) for a prescribed period of four years. I have re read my post and I certainly did not imply that it was either! Even government backed apprenticeships are described as commonly one to five years.

Even if these were short apprenticeships, the point being made was clearly that inexperienced students were given the opportunity to work alongside professionals on the project as had been promised. Furthermore, they were paid well, considerably more than inexperienced labour would commonly be paid in the construction, or indeed most other industries.

If you want to argue that the terminology was inappropriate, you go ahead.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 18, 2015)

Rushy said:


> "Of course", as I said, because they were college students and the project was only ever going to last so long.
> 
> I'm happy to accept that your company seeks full time four year apprenticeships by preference, and they probably have all sorts of good reasons for doing so. You just need to understand that there is a world outside of your company where the word apprenticeship is not narrow company specific jargon. No common definition of the term I can find limits an apprenticeship to being a) full time or b) for a prescribed period of four years. I have re read my post and I certainly did not imply that it was either! Even government backed apprenticeships are described as commonly one to five years.
> 
> ...


You just need to understand that your posts are deliberately patronising and dismissive of the experiences of others.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 18, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> You just need to understand that your posts are deliberately patronising and dismissive of the experiences of others.


This makes no sense. If someone does something deliberately, surely they understand they are doing it.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 18, 2015)

One half of Brixton's most famous duo pops into Pop


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 18, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> One half of Brixton's most famous duo pops into Pop


Tulse Hill's most famous duo


----------



## T & P (Oct 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Tulse Hill's most famous duo


I've heard that before. Formerly of Palace Road, or thereabouts?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 18, 2015)

T & P said:


> I've heard that before. Formerly of Palace Road, or thereabouts?



Indeed. Have they moved into Brixton now then?


----------



## T & P (Oct 18, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Indeed. Have they moved into Brixton now then?


No idea but a lot of people seem to describe them as living in Brixton, so I'd assumed they had at some point. I've never seen either of them in Tulse Hill, though that proves nothing.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 18, 2015)

Seen em both in Tulse Hill loads. I'm not gonna say where they live...but it is in Tulse Hill.....actually they may have a Streatham postcode


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 18, 2015)

T & P said:


> I've heard that before. Formerly of Palace Road, or thereabouts?



It _was_ Leigham Vale (the SE16 side of it) - but yeah they moved last year - don't know where they've gone now - everytime I see the outside shot I try to figure it out.  Used to see them all the time and the film crews and they would do appearances at the local school fetes.  On the show it was always described as Brixton even though it wasn't.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 19, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> You just need to understand that your posts are deliberately patronising and dismissive of the experiences of others.


I'm sorry. I should have been far more sensitive in pointing out that your unwarranted criticism was based on your misunderstanding of a common English term.

Putting that behind us ... now that you understand that that we are discussing sixteen Lambeth construction industry students being given on site placements throughout the build project, under the guidance of an unusually hands on Manser Medal winning architect and other experienced tradesmen; and that they were apparently being paid Living Wage, which is between two and three times the minimum apprenticeship rate for their time; and even taking into account that in your experience apprenticeships are usually for four years; is your immediate reaction to this opportunity positive or negative?


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 19, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Putting that behind us ... now that you understand that that we are discussing sixteen Lambeth construction industry students being given on site placements throughout the build project, under the guidance of an unusually hands on Manser Medal winning architect and other experienced tradesmen; and that they were apparently being paid Living Wage, which is between two and three times the minimum apprenticeship rate for their time; and even taking into account that in your experience apprenticeships are usually for four years; is your immediate reaction to this opportunity positive or negative?


Negative of course! It's Pop ergo reactions to anything to do with it are negative by default. You can be a silly billy Rusy at times


----------



## ddraig (Oct 19, 2015)

do you get a cut too?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 20, 2015)

ddraig said:


> do you get a cut too?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 20, 2015)

Something wrong with seeking clarification?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I'm sorry. I should have been far more sensitive in pointing out that your unwarranted criticism was based on your misunderstanding of a common English term.
> 
> Putting that behind us ... now that you understand that that we are discussing sixteen Lambeth construction industry students being given on site placements throughout the build project, under the guidance of an unusually hands on Manser Medal winning architect and other experienced tradesmen; and that they were apparently being paid Living Wage, which is between two and three times the minimum apprenticeship rate for their time; and even taking into account that in your experience apprenticeships are usually for four years; is your immediate reaction to this opportunity positive or negative?


And you wonder why people don't engage in the Brixton forum. Stop giving me attitude and being patronising. I sought a clarification so what? And to answer your question I'd need more information about this.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 20, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> And you wonder why people don't engage in the Brixton forum. Stop giving me attitude and being patronising. I sought a clarification so what? And to answer your question I'd need more information about this.


Maybe you should rethink the manner in which you "seek clarification". If that's really all you were doing.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Maybe you should rethink the manner in which you "seek clarification". If that's really all you were doing.


seriously? You're now moaning about the way I sought clarification? Christ on a pogostick stop being so nitpicky. I have no agenda here. 

I asked a question.

GET. OVER.  IT.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 20, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I asked a question.



Are you sure about that?



equationgirl said:


> But an apprenticeship is 4 years usually. Pop didn't take that long to build.



Maybe you need to rethink the manner in which you ask questions, too.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you need to rethink the manner in which you ask questions, too.


 I was not rude. I was not patronising. I did not use any terms of abuse. Yet somehow my question seeking clarification about the apprentices at pop has offended you greatly. What exactly are you objecting to?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I was not rude. I was not patronising. I did not use any terms of abuse. Yet somehow my question seeking clarification about the apprentices at pop has offended you greatly.


Which question? I don't believe that you asked me one. You responded to my post with a nonsense statement which I corrected (clarified, if you prefer) for you. Now you've got your knickers in a niggly knot.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 21, 2015)

Give over, for fucks sake.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> And you wonder why people don't engage in the Brixton forum. Stop giving me attitude and being patronising. I sought a clarification so what? And to answer your question I'd need more information about this.



People also refrain from engaging in the forums because if you post up a half impressed review of an unapproved venue you can expect sarcasm and ridicule if your lucky, or be accused of being a gentrifying landlord Tory c--- if your not.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2015)

deadringer said:


> People also refrain from engaging in the forums because if you post up a half impressed review of an unapproved venue you can expect sarcasm and ridicule if your lucky, or be accused of being a gentrifying landlord Tory c--- if your not.


This "unapproved venue" bullshit is really, really tiresome, you know.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 21, 2015)

you said it first

no you said it first

NO _you _said IT first

no YOU SAID _it _before I said IT


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Which question? I don't believe that you asked me one. You responded to my post with a nonsense statement which I corrected (clarified, if you prefer) for you. Now you've got your knickers in a niggly knot.


knickers in a knot? Are you a child?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 21, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> knickers in a knot? Are you a child?


Take it as a good indication of just how seriously I am taking this charming exchange with you. You silly sausage.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Take it as a good indication of just how seriously I am taking this charming exchange with you. You silly sausage.


stop trying to goad me with pathetic insults. You're not interested in having a serious discussion on this topic at all, you'd rather just quibble and bicker.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 21, 2015)

Guess we'll have to stop calling it the...



> beer-o-tunnel



...now


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Guess we'll have to stop calling it the...
> 
> 
> 
> ...now



£20 a pop + £1.99 booking fee 

..Halloween Craft Workshop


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 21, 2015)

Aye, more than I would pay (mainly because it's not my sort of thing), but looks quite good given the materials are all provided and you keep whatever you make. Probably make a nice Christmas gift for someone - minus cost of materials and the fact you learn a skill, it's probably quite cheap. And people love homemade presents


----------



## ddraig (Oct 21, 2015)

Wtf!! Workshop like that should be about a £5


----------



## ddraig (Oct 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Aye, more than I would pay (mainly because it's not my sort of thing), but looks quite good given the materials are all provided and you keep whatever you make. Probably make a nice Christmas gift for someone - minus cost of materials and the fact you learn a skill, it's probably quite cheap. And people love homemade presents


Bizarre lengths £22 cheap??


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 21, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Aye, more than I would pay (mainly because it's not my sort of thing), but looks quite good given the materials are all provided and you keep whatever you make. Probably make a nice Christmas gift for someone - minus cost of materials and the fact you learn a skill, it's probably quite cheap. And people love homemade presents


yeah craft felt comes in about £1 a square foot but the teachers have to make a living 
what do you reckon to a £2 booking fee for an event at a venue that likes to #keepitcommunity ?


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 21, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> yeah craft felt comes in about £1 a square foot but the teachers have to make a living
> what do you reckon to a £2 booking fee for an event at a venue that likes to #keepitcommunity ?



Isn't the booking fee eventbrites way of charging for its administration services?


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> £20 a pop + £1.99 booking fee
> 
> ..Halloween Craft Workshop


£22 for a three hour 'craft workshop' in a 'community' shipping container, you say?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> stop trying to goad me with pathetic insults. You're not interested in having a serious discussion on this topic at all, you'd rather just quibble and bicker.





Rushy said:


> Not quite the same thing, but I learned today that sixteen apprentices were taken on from a Lambeth building school for the Pop build and were paid Living Wage during their apprenticeships. No more details, I'm afraid.



Discuss.


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 22, 2015)

Pop isn't my thing, but I do wonder if those that do go and enjoy it actually give a flying fuck about editor and the rest's dull diatribe.
How I would have chuckled if the owner of Kaff would have taken up a short term lease there.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Pop isn't my thing, but I do wonder if those that do go and enjoy it actually give a flying fuck about editor and the rest's dull diatribe.


If they fit the demographic, I'm sure some people love it.


299 old timer said:


> How I would have chuckled if the owner of Kaff would have taken up a short term lease there.


Me too. A community minded business selling truly affordable food and drink would have been a great addition to the place.

Oh wait, your little dig has just backfired there, hasn't it?


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 22, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Pop isn't my thing, but I do wonder if those that do go and enjoy it actually give a flying fuck about editor and the rest's dull diatribe.
> How I would have chuckled if the owner of Kaff would have taken up a short term lease there.



I base all my interests on what editor likes and dislikes


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 22, 2015)

Sometimes this threads reaches levels of childishness that even children would struggle to achieve.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Sometimes this threads reaches levels of childishness that even children would struggle to achieve.


That snide comment earlier made me think just how much better Pop would have been if there was places like Kaff there. The closure of that place has left a big hole in Brixton when it comes to affordable cafe/bar spaces.


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 22, 2015)

And yet they've stopped their weekend market bar due to lack of custom.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> And yet they've stopped their weekend market bar due to lack of custom.


Might that possibly be because:

(a) It was outside. In a car park.
(b) It was Autumn
(c) It was cold/wet/windy (so windy in fact that the tarpaulin got blown away)
(d) There was no live acts or music to give the place a happening vibe. Or Kaff coffee. Or food. 
(e) They had to close early thanks to one selfish cunt complaining in Brixton Square

Kaff proved that their mix of affordability and community involvement was something that would prove popular because they're the only people to have ever made a success of the Atlantic Road premises. The thing in Granville Space was hardly comparable and was nobbled from the start thanks to the whining nu-resident.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 22, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Pop isn't my thing, but I do wonder if those that do go and enjoy it actually give a flying fuck about editor and the rest's dull diatribe.
> How I would have chuckled if the owner of Kaff would have taken up a short term lease there.


I doubt they would give a fuck but that's not why the thread exists is it?


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 22, 2015)

editor said:


> Might that possibly be because:
> 
> (a) It was outside. In a car park.
> (b) It was Autumn
> ...


If these why the reasons they stopped, why did they start at all? With perhaps the exception of (e) all the other factors were surely known before they went into this?


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> If these why the reasons they stopped, why did they start at all? With perhaps the exception of (e) all the other factors were surely known before they went into this?


They thought they'd give it a go seeing as they've been priced out of their other shop. 

The lack of music was a _major_ factor in the lack of atmosphere there, but at least they gave it a go and some people got to enjoy some affordable drinks. All commendable in my book.


----------



## innit (Oct 22, 2015)

I cruised around pop at lunchtime yesterday with the buggy. On a damp autumn day it was desolate and uninviting and I felt for the retail traders. There was a small group of people at the ramen stall and a bunch of bored looking meeting attendees in the impact hub but otherwise it was empty.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 22, 2015)

editor said:


> They thought they'd give it a go seeing as they've been priced out of their other shop.
> 
> The lack of music was a _major_ factor in the lack of atmosphere there, but at least they gave it a go and some people got to enjoy some affordable drinks. All commendable in my book.


Fair play


----------



## T & P (Oct 22, 2015)

For the record, and in case any lurkers/ newcomers are reading this thread, Pop Brixton offers drinks every bit as affordable as anywhere else in Brixton. 

Some retailers based at Pop however sell drinks that are more expensive than others, so I guess it's just safest to give the entire place a miss. 

I was once short-changed by a market trader on Electric Avenue, and another time was charged ludicrous amounts for a drink at a popular venue on Coldharbour Lane, so by the same reasoning I would advise any would-be shopper or reveller to stay well away from all traders and licenced venues in Brixton, to be on the safe side.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 22, 2015)

Pop Brixton seems to have managed, by means that one may or may not approve of, to create an environment where a small bar operation can do effective business.

The Granville market, it seems, unfortunately hasn't.

Pop charges more for rent, having receieved a certain amount of financial investment into their infrastructure.

Granville market presumably charges less but has put in less investment.

Wanting granville market level rent at the same time as Pop Brixton level infrastructure is wanting to have your cake and eat it.

Or in other words, for Kaff to have succeeded in Granville market, Granville market would probably have had to be more like Pop Brixton, in which case we'd have to all hate upon Granville Market too.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 22, 2015)

How many people posting on this thread have actually said they 'hate' Pop Brixton?


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> How many people posting on this thread have actually said they 'hate' Pop Brixton?


No one as far as I can see, but there seems to be some posters persistently trying to project that emotion on to others.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 22, 2015)

I looked into a couple of the pop 'boutiques' a week or so ago...I get that a couple of them are selling 'vintage' clothing but I find it more fun and waaay cheaper looking in charity shops. Bit snooty them pop shops.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

To "hate on" (or upon as Teuchter said) is defined in the Cambridge English dictionary as to criticise or say bad things about someone/thing in an unpleasant and public way.

In the free dictionary, it is defined as to ridicule, insult or act hatefully towards.

Oxford dictionary: express strong dislike for; criticise or abuse.

I think it is fair to say that Pop has been fairly comprehensively hated on.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> To "hate on" (or upon as Teuchter said) is defined in the Cambridge English dictionary as to criticise or say bad things about someone/thing in an unpleasant and public way.
> 
> In the free dictionary, it is defined as to ridicule, insult or act hatefully towards.
> 
> ...


Gosh...


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> To "hate on" (or upon as Teuchter said) is defined in the Cambridge English dictionary as to criticise or say bad things about someone/thing in an unpleasant and public way.
> 
> In the free dictionary, it is defined as to ridicule, insult or act hatefully towards.
> 
> ...



so a bit like certain poster's attitude to the management of these boards ?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> so a bit like certain poster's attitude to the management of these boards ?


Yes. Just like that. And vice versa. I'm delighted that you have so quickly grasped the correct definition, and are now properly qualified to interpret Teuchter's post, which was clearly misunderstood by the subsequent posters.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yes. Just like that. And vice versa. I'm delighted that you have so quickly grasped the correct definition, and are now properly qualified to interpret Teuchter's post, which was clearly misunderstood by the subsequent posters.


This is not a playground, we're not at school. Get over over yourselves and each other.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yes. Just like that. And vice versa. I'm delighted that you have so quickly grasped the correct definition, and are now properly qualified to interpret Teuchter's post, which was clearly misunderstood by the subsequent posters.


I didn't see that post......so no I'm not qualified.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I didn't see that post.


Don't worry. It's not the first time you've jumped in uninformed. The world will keep turning.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Don't worry. It's not the first time you've jumped in uninformed. The world will keep turning.



If you are attempting to own the role of odious prig, then you are very much doing so.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> If you are attempting to own the role of odious prig, then you are very much doing so.


Well done. That's "hating on". Do you think you can tell the difference by yourself now?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Well done. That's "hating on". Do you think you can tell the difference by yourself now?



I think you'll find that when I 'hate on' something/someone it manifests in a much less gentle manner. 

Hate is not a word I like to see used lightly.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Don't worry. It's not the first time you've jumped in uninformed. The world will keep turning.


link to  teuchter 's	awesomely incisive  post then please


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think you'll find that when I 'hate on' something/someone it manifests in a much less gentle manner.
> 
> Hate is not a word I like to see used lightly.


That's fine. Use it as meanicingly as you like. But it's more than a little precious to assume others have adopted your own preferred special meaning rather than the commonly accepted one, and then pick them up on it.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> That's fine. Use it as meanicingly as you like. But it's more than a little precious to assume others have adopted your own preferred special meaning rather than the commonly accepted one, and then pick them up on it.



Now you are just talking nonsense.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Now you are just talking nonsense.


Indeed. Goodness knows what you think each of the words in my post means. It must be awfully confusing.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 22, 2015)

Simplify for me.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Simplify for me.


 PM me your personal dictionary of Nanker's Preferred Meanings for Common English Words and I'll see what I can do.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 22, 2015)

Rushy said:


> PM me your personal dictionary of Nanker's Preferred Meanings for Common English Words and I'll see what I can do.



I doubt you could help a poor idiot like me see any genuine and sincere meaning in much of what you write, think or say, regardless of how much common English you may claim to use. So I'll pass.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 22, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I doubt you could help a poor idiot like me see any genuine and sincere meaning in much of what you write, think or say, regardless of how much common English you may claim to use. So I'll pass.



Fair enough.


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 22, 2015)




----------



## Ol Nick (Oct 22, 2015)

superfly101 said:


>


Go Mets!!!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 23, 2015)

They could have at least spelt my user name correctly....

New business village causes friction online


----------



## Belushi (Oct 23, 2015)

Nanker Phlege


----------



## CH1 (Oct 23, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> They could have at least spelt my user name correctly....
> New business village causes friction online


Is there really a Gahanna food stall? As in the well-know city in Columbus Ohio with a population of 32,000?
Cheese or wine?


----------



## Maharani (Oct 23, 2015)

The last sentence is supreme!!


----------



## T & P (Oct 23, 2015)

People talking stuff on the internet is now news?


----------



## Maharani (Oct 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> People talking stuff on the internet is now news?


Eh?


----------



## CH1 (Oct 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> People talking stuff on the internet is now news?



But one local woman, standing outside Pop Brixton, dismissed gentrification claims: “This isn’t gentrification. In Jamaica, people work out of shipping containers when they can’t afford offices.”

I thought I'd give you the context. Not off topic is it?


----------



## T & P (Oct 23, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Eh?


My point is the reported thoughts of no more of a handful of individuals on a message board and/or twitter about a particular issue is hardly worth writing an article about. You could arguably use anyone of the tens of thousands of threads across all the Urban 75 forums to write similar articles. Not exactly newsworthy.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> Not exactly newsworthy.



I agree. Made me laugh.

It's a terrible article.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 23, 2015)

T & P said:


> My point is the reported thoughts of no more of a handful of individuals on a message board and/or twitter about a particular issue is hardly worth writing an article about. You could arguably use anyone of the tens of thousands of threads across all the Urban 75 forums to write similar articles. Not exactly newsworthy.


Did you look at the site? All about Old Street eateries above the roundabout and stuff. None of it worth writing about - but the bit about Brixton and Pop Brixton is worthwhile gossip in my view.


----------



## T & P (Oct 23, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Did you look at the site? All about Old Street eateries above the roundabout and stuff. None of it worth writing about - but the bit about Brixton and Pop Brixton is worthwhile gossip in my view.


The issue itself is worthy of discussion and exposure, but the article writer has gone a terrible way about it. I'm no journalist but you do not quote just two or three random individuals from the internet as suggestion it is a hot topic or fiercely debated. It's an extremely small pool of opinions that's being used.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 23, 2015)

Oh you're spoiling it now. I was enjoying being the premier sound of dissent.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2015)

Maharani said:


> The last sentence is supreme!!


End of the debate for sure: 


> But one local woman, standing outside Pop Brixton, dismissed gentrification claims: “This isn’t gentrification. In Jamaica, people work out of shipping containers when they can’t afford offices.”


----------



## teuchter (Oct 23, 2015)

The article did not even mention the giant spade and fork that the community was promised and then denied.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 23, 2015)

teuchter said:


> The article did not even mention the giant spade and fork that the community was promised and then denied.


I hope you will work tirelessly until you correct this outrage!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Gosh...



I too am shocked that Rushy owns a dictionary.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 23, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I too am shocked that Rushy owns a dictionary.


And has the time to cut and paste all of that...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 23, 2015)

We can sleep soundly in the knowledge that Stephen Fry and Rushy are out their protecting the English language from irrepairable degradation at the hands of insolent plebs like me.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 23, 2015)

Maharani said:


> This is not a playground, we're not at school. Get over over yourselves and each other.


.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 23, 2015)

Primary school art on show:


----------



## deadringer (Oct 24, 2015)

ddraig said:


> I hope you will work tirelessly until you correct this outrage!!



Sssssh Craig, the adults are talking. Come back when you have anything of substance to say......-*pats head'


----------



## ddraig (Oct 24, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Sssssh Craig, the adults are talking. Come back when you have anything of substance to say......-*pats head'


Wtf?


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2015)

There's fun for all the family on Halloween at Pop! Well, if your family are all over 18 and can afford £8 a head.
The Exorcist Halloween Cinema Experience


----------



## Belushi (Oct 26, 2015)

£8 isn't bad tbf


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2015)

Belushi said:


> £8 isn't bad tbf


Happily, there's loads of free/cheaper Halloween events on around town.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 26, 2015)

In this week's edition of Pop Brixton Comparisons, we assess whether a halloween night intended for adults is good value as a family day out.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 26, 2015)

Not sure what these guys (@tnandsc) are up to at Pop, but they tweeted this image







I quite like it


----------



## teuchter (Oct 26, 2015)

Basically a lie, and a bit insulting to many.

A variation on "you can achieve anything you like if you work hard enough", with some stuff about art thrown in to make it sound more worthy.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 26, 2015)

Do my spider senses detect you're not a fan?

I think the words are waffley guff, but I like the way it's printed on two sides of a column


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 26, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Basically a lie, and a bit insulting to many.
> 
> A variation on "you can achieve anything you like if you work hard enough", with some stuff about art thrown in to make it sound more worthy.


Like this.....






Or maybe this.....


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 26, 2015)

To be fair, £8 is cheaper than a ticket to see at Film at Ritzy and Streatham Odean, or a lot of those open-air summer film screenings, plus it includes a drink. Rubbish choice of film though.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2015)

DietCokeGirl said:


> To be fair, £8 is cheaper than a ticket to see at Film at Ritzy and Streatham Odean, or a lot of those open-air summer film screenings, plus it includes a drink. Rubbish choice of film though.


Granville Market space had a free movie double bill recently.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 26, 2015)

editor said:


> Granville Market space had a free movie double bill recently.



How much are the burgers in the third picture down, can't quite make out the prices on my phone? Would love to know how they compare to the ghastly Pop.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 26, 2015)

deadringer said:


> How much are the burgers in the third picture down, can't quite make out the prices on my phone? Would love to know how they compare to the ghastly Pop.



If you have to ask you can't afford them.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Granville Market space had a free movie double bill recently.


By saying this what do you mean? Is it that Granville Market is better than Pop Brixton because it had a free movie double bill 2 or so weeks ago while Pop are charging £8 a skull for a Halloween film showing this weekend?

Kaff are now gone from Granville Market right? So that free double bill won't happen again will it? Its like saying Kricket are charging £8 for a curry but the Canterbury had free bacon and cabbage last St Patrick's day.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> By saying this what do you mean?


We were discussing the price of local pop up cinema events. Seems a pretty straightforward and on-topic post to me so I think you need to calm down a bit.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Not sure what these guys (@tnandsc) are up to at Pop, but they tweeted this image
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it an event, a lecture or what & what time is it?
Curious of CHL


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 27, 2015)

Hang out on the corner by KFC after 11pm and you get all the free horror you could ever need. Every night.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

What slightly surprises me is something about tags.

The full English breakfast thread has "hipster scum" as a tag, yet this thread doesn't. 

You couldn't make it up!


----------



## T & P (Oct 27, 2015)

Oh, I'm sure some are kicking themselves for missing the opportunity to add that before the tag limit was reached.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 27, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Is it an event, a lecture or what & what time is it?
> Curious of CHL



Not really sure but the group seems to organise art outreach programmes for kids I think


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> What slightly surprises me is something about tags.
> 
> The full English breakfast thread has "hipster scum" as a tag, yet this thread doesn't.
> 
> You couldn't make it up!


I'm still struggling to see the point of tags seeing as people just fuck about.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Hang out on the corner by KFC after 11pm and you get all the free horror you could ever need. Every night.


Far too vibrant/edgy for the well heeled tourists, I'm afraid.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Far too vibrant/edgy for the well heeled tourists, I'm afraid.



I was talking about the well heeled tourists......


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 27, 2015)

Pop Brixton Pop Feast - 6 Traders x 6 Courses + Surprises!

"November the 12th sees the Pop food traders collaborate on a decadent supperclub sampling the very best of Brixton street and restaurant food.

 The event flips up the broader “eat on your feet” ethos at Pop with a slightly more formal but just as lively 6 course sit-down menu.  The carefully curated supperclub brings together a worldwide mix of vibrant flavors.  Each course promises a taste explosion designed to tickle globe-trotting tastebuds.

 The courses for this inaugural feast will be presented by 6 of our traders including Made of Dough(Pizza), Maria Sabina( Mexican), Koi Ramen(Japanese), Viet Box(Vietnamese), Miss P’s( Atlanta BBQ) and Supercute(French). Each trader gets their creativity flowing with a bespoke dish guaranteed leave get you salivating.

 We invite you to take shelter behind the barn-like doors of our event space. Popbox will be entirely transformed into a cosy candlelit space for the feast. You will be seated with like-minded people and could very well come away not only new foodie friends but delicious memories too.

 Tickets are limited and selling fast at £35 * which includes the 6 courses and a drink upon arrival. "


 * plus booking fee


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> You will be seated with like-minded people...


What the _fuck_ does that mean?

So happy that we've got our own "decadent supperclub," mind.


----------



## T & P (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm beginning to wonder if this thread isn't in fact the ingenious brainchild of the people behind Pop Brixton. At the very least they must be very pleased with the amount of free publicity and constant exposure of their planned activities and events.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Pop Brixton Pop Feast - 6 Traders x 6 Courses + Surprises!
> 
> "November the 12th sees the Pop food traders collaborate on a decadent supperclub sampling the very best of Brixton street and restaurant food.
> 
> ...



Is this real or a pisstake?

In case of the former:


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> What the _fuck_ does that mean?
> 
> So happy that we've got our own "decadent supperclub," mind.



It's "creative." You wouldn't understand in your "enemy of change" ivory tower.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 27, 2015)

With the benefit of the context of the full sentence quoted from they would appear to be referring to other "foodie types".


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

Rushy said:


> With the benefit of the context of the full sentence quoted from they would appear to be referring to other "foodie types".



Who like their nosh "carefully curated." 

This really is Apprentice contestant level vacuous bollocks.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

Just out of interest, I wonder if cuppa tea ran this past the editor before advertising his/her profit-making event.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 27, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> We invite you to take shelter behind the barn-like doors of our event space....



....from all the poor and hungry scratching for scraps....


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 27, 2015)

T & P said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if this thread isn't in fact the ingenious brainchild of the people behind Pop Brixton. At the very least they must be very pleased with the amount of free publicity and constant exposure of their planned activities and events.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

No Brixton riff raff! You'll be sat with "like minded people" who - just like you - seek a decadent supperclub feast with vibrant 'flavors', "taking shelter" behind "barn-like doors" in a security ringed venue. All yours for just £37.75!


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 27, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Just out of interest, I wonder if cuppa tea ran this past the editor before advertising his/her profit-making event.


I am not the promoter or in ny way associated with pop
as you pointed out earlier the vacuous schpiel in the link required no further comment from me.....


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I am not the promoter or in ny way associated with pop
> as you pointed out earlier the vacuous schpiel in the link required no further comment from me.....



Apologies. When you flagged up the vacuous bollocks, I mistook you for the originator of said bollocks.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

Edited.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 27, 2015)

£35 is a bargain for 6 courses and a drink...  plus no riff-raff(?!)


----------



## Belushi (Oct 27, 2015)

What's decadent about it? I'd be expecting chilled monkey brains at the very least


----------



## T & P (Oct 27, 2015)

Cheaper than similar ventures at the Tulse Hill Hotel, for instance.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 27, 2015)

Belushi said:


> What's decadent about it? I'd be expecting chilled monkey brains at the very least



It's going to have naked slaves and a vomitorium.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 27, 2015)

It's not hugely expensive for a 6 course meal...in a barn. Works out £6 a head per vendor per person (more likely £5 (or under), as I'm sure Pop will be skimming something back on it...for the drink/for the barn/for the profit?

The blurb is a nonsense marketing mess.....and the 'menu' sounds a little indigestion inducing, and not that enjoyable, unless you're the kind of person that really enjoys mixings up loads of different flavours in one sitting.

It's finger food, in a barn, on a Thursday evening, in November. 

If that's yer nose bag, tuck in...


----------



## deadringer (Oct 27, 2015)

T & P said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if this thread isn't in fact the ingenious brainchild of the people behind Pop Brixton. At the very least they must be very pleased with the amount of free publicity and constant exposure of their planned activities and events.



Indeed. Without this thread I wouldn't have a clue what's going on down there!


----------



## deadringer (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> No Brixton riff raff! You'll be sat with "like minded people" who - just like you - seek a decadent supperclub feast with vibrant 'flavors', "taking shelter" behind "barn-like doors" in a security ringed venue. All yours for just £37.75!



Sounds totes amazeballs, see you down there!


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Sounds totes amazeballs, see you down there!


I thought it might be your kind of thing.

No need to mix with rough locals when you can enjoy a carefully curated supperclub with like-minded people taking shelter behind barn-like doors. Perfect!


----------



## deadringer (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> I thought it might be your kind of thing.
> 
> No need to mix with rough locals when you can enjoy a carefully curated supperclub with like-minded people taking shelter behind barn-like doors. Perfect!



Don't forget the security ring of steel!


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Indeed. Without this thread I wouldn't have a clue what's going on down there!


Has no one explained to you how Twitter works yet then? Sign up quick to ensure your globe-trotting tastebuds get tickled!


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Has no one explained to you how Twitter works yet then? Sign up quick to ensure your globe-trotting tastebuds get tickled!



Vibrant "flavors"! Don't forget the vibrant "flavors"!


----------



## deadringer (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Has no one explained to you how Twitter works yet then? Sign up quick to ensure your globe-trotting tastebuds get tickled!



Cheers for the heads up Ed, you're being especially helpful today!

Whilst you are, did you manage to decipher how much the burgers were at the Granville Market film showing you was raving about earlier?


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 27, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's going to have naked slaves and a vomitorium.



More Emperor Nero than Caffe Nero, then?


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Cheers for the heads up Ed, you're being especially helpful today!
> 
> Whilst you are, did you manage to decipher how much the burgers were at the Granville Market film showing you was raving about earlier?


If you're that fascinated with burger prices, maybe you should get off your arse and document them yourself?  I think that they started at a £5, by the way.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> We were discussing the price of local pop up cinema events. Seems a pretty straightforward and on-topic post to me so I think you need to calm down a bit.


Calmer 'n' you


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

My friend was involved in Pop. Here's what he posted today:



> Started out with good potential but quickly turning into another yuppie scheme. We got told if we wanted to put in another FREE show we'd have to pay £500 for space BUT its ok coz we'd be allowed to charge! Pricks


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Don't forget the security ring of steel!


are your wanky posts so weak you have to caveat with a smiley each time?


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> are your wanky posts so weak you have to caveat with a smiley each time?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> are your wanky posts so weak you have to caveat with a smiley each time?



If he's caveating with a smilie, it should be this one. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



That way we'd have a warning of the content.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 27, 2015)

ddraig said:


> are your wanky posts so weak you have to caveat with a smiley each time?



Sometimes! 

Helps lighten the mood amongst the nasty insults I find.


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Sometimes!
> 
> Helps lighten the mood amongst the nasty insults I find.


Your posts seem to have been exclusively sarcastic and sneery today so maybe a change in posting style might bring about a reduction in these supposed "nasty insults"?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Sometimes!
> 
> Helps lighten the mood amongst the nasty insults I find.


for those with a purile mind maybe
it's quite tedious for the rest tbh
but as long as it gives you a chuckle eh...


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

(edited as I was sent the wrong info)


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 27, 2015)

editor said:


> Hey Popsie fans! Here's another great community event for you.
> Who fancies a gin-tasting session where you can learn to 'mix the perfect Nautilus G&T serve'? Just £24 for the 90 mins session!
> 
> Gin on the Decks No1 tasting session Thursday 29th  October | Facebook



So £16 an hour with free gin n nibbles


----------



## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> So £16 an hour with free gin n nibbles


I've deleted the post as it turns out that the event is in the Villaaage. I'm not convinced that your strange dissection of the whole event into a hourly rate makes it sound any more affordable mind, but do go along if it's your thing.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 27, 2015)

My kids dragged me down to Pop today because their school artwork was on display.

Couple of Spanish volunteer gardeners were at work, planting and harvesting - they offered me some aubergines and chillies.

They say the planting is to extend to the new business area, which is finally being occupied by laptop-toting types.

I made the first-ever Brixton Pound purchase in the Kiwi wine shop.

A costly range (£11+) but NZ wine is not cheap and it was for my mother in law.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 27, 2015)

leanderman said:


> My kids dragged me down to Pop today because their school artwork was on display.
> 
> Couple of Spanish volunteer gardeners were at work, planting and harvesting - they offered me some aubergines and chillies.
> 
> ...



Fucking gardeners? Growing vegetables? Didn't someone tell them it's an outdoor club? Didn't they see we removed the giant spade and fork? Bellends


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fucking gardeners? Growing vegetables? Didn't someone tell them it's an outdoor club? Didn't they see we removed the giant spade and fork? Bellends


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Fucking gardeners? Growing vegetables? Didn't someone tell them it's an outdoor club? Didn't they see we removed the giant spade and fork? Bellends


 
considering Pop Brixton opened at the end of May and you should  be sowing your aubergines in April at the latest, the gardeners really have had a miraculous result


----------



## T & P (Oct 27, 2015)

Or perhaps they had planned ahead and did their sowing before it officially opened to the public?

But no matter. Let's try to turn every last action, every last bit of news, everything related to Pop that ever happens into a Bad Thing, or something to be criticised or derided.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 27, 2015)

T & P said:


> perhaps they had planned ahead and did their sowing before it officially opened to the public?



or maybe they just shipped some in from a nursery..............remember this post from Rushy 10/06



Rushy said:


> Loads of plants turned up at Pop today.
> 
> Planters all around the outside. About 30 oil drums and planters in the main courtyard area planted with fruit trees, I think. Loads of flowers and plants in the main poly tunnel.
> 
> ETA apple trees, according to a couple of the tags.


----------



## T & P (Oct 27, 2015)

Who knows? And frankly, what does it matter?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 27, 2015)

T & P said:


> Who knows? And frankly, what does it matter?



Silly me. Obviously a fake aubergine. Lucky I said no. Brilliant disguise though. Great flesh tones.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 27, 2015)

They should have had some greenery on show right from the start, so as to have matched the artist's impressions from day one. This was established some months ago on this thread. And they also should grow everything from seed on site and not bring any seedlings in from nurseries, as we have learnt this evening. The obvious solution would have been for them to plant things at the appropriate spatial co-ordinates in physical substrates that only existed in the future and I don't know why they didn't think of this.

That they overlooked this is almost as shocking as not employing building apprentices to do building work outside of the building work period.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 27, 2015)

teuchter said:


> They should have had some greenery on show right from the start, so as to have matched the artist's impressions from day one. This was established some months ago on this thread. And they also should grow everything from seed on site and not bring any seedlings in from nurseries, as we have learnt this evening. The obvious solution would have been for them to plant things at the appropriate spatial co-ordinates in physical substrates that only existed in the future and I don't know why they didn't think of this.
> 
> That they overlooked this is almost as shocking as not employing building apprentices to do building work outside of the building work period.



There are plenty of plants that grow quickly and that can be eaten
Maximising Space 3: Fast Growing Crops
the fact that aubergines are impressive looking would make them more attractive to someone wanting to create the illusion of a growing space, as you say "greenery on show '
when the spaces real use is as a dining court, aubergine palnts for cultivation come in around £8 each ircc
doubtless the cost would have been covered by the investors and recouped in full before the same investors start scooping up the profits


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 27, 2015)

What came first....the jerk chicken or the egg plant


----------



## leanderman (Oct 27, 2015)

I will never look at an aubergine in the same way again.


----------



## Winot (Oct 27, 2015)

(((Aubergines)))


----------



## T & P (Oct 27, 2015)

Twisted bastards, offering free vegetables to unsuspecting visitors... What will they think of next?


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 27, 2015)

T & P said:


> Twisted bastards, offering free vegetables to unsuspecting visitors... What will they think of next?



Those are no ordinary aubergines, they're pop aubergines. Leanderman should cube and salt them in a colander first to take away the bitterness.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 27, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Those are no ordinary aubergines, they're pop aubergines. Leanderman should cube and salt them in a colander first to take away the bitterness.



Bitterness? That must be because they're watered with the tears of the dispossessed?


----------



## aka (Oct 27, 2015)

I went to Pop today and had a ramen (pork) from Koi Ramen - they moved to Pop from Brixton Station Road - where they had a stand on a Friday and at the weekend. That was my Friday treat, to go to the stand and enjoy the food and banter that the owner had with his team.  They have put the price up from £5 to £6 (price excludes extras such as half an egg), however I don't begrudge them that or think it unreasonable.

The ramen was just as good.  Not sure about the banter.


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 27, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Bitterness? That must be because they're watered with the tears of the dispossessed?



No, they are watered with the tears of the punters who pay £7.50 for a pint...


----------



## Paulie (Oct 28, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Vibrant "flavors"! Don't forget the vibrant "flavors"!


Kept looking at that word in the original posted bollocks - it's spelled wrong.  But then 'flavour' also looked wrong.  Of course!... if it's vibrant it must be 'flava'.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> No, they are watered with the tears of the punters who pay £7.50 for a pint...



A bottle, actually. Not even a pint.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> A bottle, actually. Not even a pint.



.....from Europe


----------



## deadringer (Oct 28, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> A bottle, actually. Not even a pint.



I thought the pointless argument was that it was £3.75 per bottle and that made it two bottles being comparable to paying £7.50 per pint. Or something.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

The posts on this thread may well prove an excellent indicator for finding out which posters have lots of disposable income and those who do not. There's certainly a depressing lack of empathy and understanding shown at times for anyone who can't afford nu-Brixton prices.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 28, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I thought the pointless argument was that it was £3.75 per bottle and that made it two bottles being comparable to paying £7.50 per pint. Or something.


1 pint = 20 fl oz
1 beer bottle = 330ml = 11.6 fl oz
1 pint = 1.7bottles of beer.
let us never have this conversation again


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 28, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I thought the pointless argument was that it was £3.75 per bottle and that made it two bottles being comparable to paying £7.50 per pint. Or something.



Rip off is rip off.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> 1 pint = 20 fl oz
> 1 beer bottle = 330ml = 11.6 fl oz
> 1 pint = 1.7bottles of beer.
> let us never have this conversation again


*Just to add: the £3.75 bottles being sold at Pop were the teensy Red Stripe 'stubbies,' which contain a disappointingly small booze payload of just 300ml so you'll have to do some recalculations in this instance.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> The posts on this thread may well prove an excellent indicator for finding out which posters have lots of disposable income and those who do not. There's certainly a depressing lack of empathy and understanding shown at times for anyone who can't afford nu-Brixton prices.



Wedded to a sneery attitude, couched in comments masquerading as "humour."


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 28, 2015)

Like this one, for example.....



SpamMisery said:


> Bitterness? That must be because they're watered with the tears of the dispossessed?


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

For the record, as it strangely keeps slipping some people's minds, it is worth remembering that there is plenty of affordable beer offerings also available at Pop, including for instance a pint for £4.50.

Affordable beer is available at Pop.
Affordable beer is available at Pop.
Affordable beer is available at Pop.
Affordable beer is available at Pop.
Affordable beer is available at Pop.

I hope this helps to clear any confusion.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 28, 2015)

T & P said:


> For the record, as it strangely keeps slipping some people's minds, it is worth remembering that there is plenty of affordable beer offerings also available at Pop, including for instance a pint for £4.50.
> 
> Affordable beer is available at Pop subject to availability.
> Affordable beer is available at Pop subject to availability.
> ...


Corrected for you 


T & P said:


> And again: reasonably priced beer is being sold at Pop Brixton, subject, like everywhere else in the world, to availability.


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

Well of course, like everywhere else. When I last went and checked it was available. And that was just one of traders.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

Surely 'affordable' is not a universal value. What is affordable to me may not be affordable to someone else and vice versa.

£4.50 for a pint is still considered a lot to many people, despite it seeming to be fairly standard across London and, becoming more common, further afield.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Surely 'affordable' is not a universal value. What is affordable to me may not be affordable to someone else and vice versa.
> 
> £4.50 for a pint is still considered a lot to many people, despite it seeming to be fairly standard across London and, becoming more common, further afield.


Well, exactly, and it seems even less value if you're not getting the warmth and comfort of a proper pub with your pint too.

Happily, there are pubs - and some clubs - in Brixton offering far cheaper drinks than Pop's "affordable" choices - and best of all, you usually get it served in a proper glass too, not some shitty squishy plastic thing.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 28, 2015)

According to the Good Pub Guide 2015, the average price of beer in London is £3.79, making £4.50 a 19% increase in the London average.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 28, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Rip off is rip off.



Agreed. As I said way upthread, bottled lager is, and always has been a complete waste of money.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> According to the Good Pub Guide 2015, the average price of beer in London is £3.79, making £4.50 a 19% increase in the London average.


I was charged £5 for my pint of average ale at Pop. Total rip off.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> I was charged £5 for my pint of average ale at Pop. Total rip off.


A wapping 32% increase over the London average.
Mathematical proof of a rip off.
I'm all about the sums today!


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Surely 'affordable' is not a universal value. What is affordable to me may not be affordable to someone else and vice versa.
> 
> £4.50 for a pint is still considered a lot to many people, despite it seeming to be fairly standard across London and, becoming more common, further afield.


Completely agree. Pity then that some people keep on trying to paint and single out Pop as unaffordable to the local community, when in fact *every single pub in Brixton* will be just as unaffordable to those people. Even the Beehive will be out of reach to many.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> According to the Good Pub Guide 2015, the average price of beer in London is £3.79, making £4.50 a 19% increase in the London average.



That does suprise me. Clearly the amount of Wetherspoons in London balances it out...


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> A wapping 32% increase over the London average.
> Mathematical proof of a rip off.
> I'm all about the sums today!


It's even worse because you're not even getting a decent place to drink your beer. It's more like buying a beer at a festival, where the seller has none of the overheads of a pub, like heating, lighting, tables, chairs, carpets - and people to clean them  glasses and glass cleaners and collectors etc etc etc. At Pop you have to stand in the cold with a shitty plastic cup.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> That does suprise me. Clearly the amount of Wetherspoons in London balances it out...


You can get a pint of one of Britain's most popular lagers at the Albert for £3.30.


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> According to the Good Pub Guide 2015, the average price of beer in London is £3.79, making £4.50 a 19% increase in the London average.


You can expect to pay around £4.50 and often more at practically all non-Wetherspoon pubs in Brixton.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> You can get a pint of one of Britain's most popular lagers at the Albert for £3.30.



After queuing?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

I don't drink anywhere without a roof, or anywhere I have to queue to get in.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> After queuing?


I had to queue at Pop for ages for my £5 plastic cup of beer. The queues at the Albert are very much dependent on when you're there, like any pub, really.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> A wapping 32% increase over the London average.
> Mathematical proof of a rip off.
> I'm all about the sums today!


Arithmetical calculation.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> I had to queue at Pop for ages for my £5 plastic cup of beer. The queues at the Albert are very much dependent on when you're there, like any pub, really.



I was talking about the one in one out....not the queue at the bar. Queues at the bar I can just about live with.


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I don't drink anywhere without a roof, or anywhere I have to queue to get in.


I love drinking alfresco myself if the weather allows it. As for queuing, I have never had to queue much at all when I've been to Pop. in fact it's been quicker than at most pubs at weekends.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I was talking about the one in one out....not the queue at the bar. Queues at the bar I can just about live with.


Happily that seems to be very rarely implemented this days.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Re: prices. £4.50 is definitely not standard where I drink around Brixton, neither do I view it as an 'affordable' price - and if I am forced to pay that much, I expect - at the very least - to be inside in the warm with proper seating and having my beer served in a non-squishy throwaway container.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 28, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Agreed. As I said way upthread, bottled lager is, and always has been a complete waste of money.



In the UK, anyway.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> According to the Good Pub Guide 2015, the average price of beer in London is £3.79, making £4.50 a 19% increase in the London average.


London average is a bit higher than that at £3.92.
Herefordshire is cheapest at £3.10.

They also point out that London is about middle of the road for Europe.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> London average is a bit higher than that at £3.92.
> Herefordshire is cheapest at £3.10.
> 
> They also point out that London is about middle of the road for Europe.


I quoted from here: 
Good Pub Guide 2015: Regional breakdown of beer prices
which gives Herefordshire as 3.03 to london 3.79 as the range.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> I quoted from here:
> Good Pub Guide 2015: Regional breakdown of beer prices
> which gives Herefordshire as 3.03 to london 3.79 as the range.


I know. That's last year's. The 2016 Guide is out.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> I know. That's last year's. The 2016 Guide is out.


Fair do's, a 3.4% rise is well over inflation. A symtom of gentrification perhaps?


----------



## Rushy (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Fair do's, a 3.4% rise is well over inflation. A symtom of gentrification perhaps?


Maybe. But it had gone up by well over inflation in the cheapest areas too. No idea how they calculate it. Could simply be that there are more premium choices available in the market place than last year. Need to compare like with like, really. It's a fun figure but not a very useful one, I'd say.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 28, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Fair do's, a 3.4% rise is well over inflation. A symtom of gentrification perhaps?



That's a bit of a back to front version of inflation - 'inflation' is a measure of prices across a whole load of things, including beer. There's no reason to expect any given thing to increase at exactly the overall rate of inflation. 

Seeing as we're being all pedantic like.


----------



## alcopop (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Re: prices. £4.50 is definitely not standard where I drink around Brixton, neither do I view it as an 'affordable' price - and if I am forced to pay that much, I expect - at the very least - to be inside in the warm with proper seating and having my beer served in a non-squishy throwaway container.



I'm fairly sure no one is forcing you to drink beer at somewhere you obviously hate.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 28, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> That's a bit of a back to front version of inflation - 'inflation' is a measure of prices across a whole load of things, including beer. There's no reason to expect any given thing to increase at exactly the overall rate of inflation.
> 
> Seeing as we're being all pedantic like.


I was comparing the rise in beer prices to the rate of inflation. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 28, 2015)

A pint in the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet Street is about £3.30, it's a Sam Smiths pub. It's on the tourist trail yet they don't charge exorbitantly.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

alcopop said:


> I'm fairly sure no one is forcing you to drink beer at somewhere you obviously hate.



They are not. Does that then deny someone a right to comment or have an opinion?


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

alcopop said:


> I'm fairly sure no one is forcing you to drink beer at somewhere you obviously hate.


I do believe I'm still fully entitled to make a comment about a place I have visited many times, and I believe I'm equally entitled to join in with a conversation about it. 

With many affordable pubs and bars being closed down due to gentrification (Kaff, Canterbury, Grosvenor etc) and the growing clamour from outside investors/chains to service well heeled nu-Brixton incomers, I'm fearful that we're only going to end up with these kind of trendy rip off joints. I think that's worth talking about, but maybe it's not such an interesting conversation if you already find these new places 'affordable'.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> A pint in the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet Street is about £3.30, it's a Sam Smiths pub. It's on the tourist trail yet they don't charge exorbitantly.


Proof indeed that there is no reason to charge so much.


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> Proof indeed that there is no reason to charge so much.



The majority of pubs round where I work (St Pauls area) charge around £4.50 a pint. Steep? This is the City of London, so expensive. However charging similar and higher prices in a venture made of some old shipping containers cobbled together with a bit of decking on some derelict land is slightly taking the piss.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> The majority of pubs round where I work (St Pauls area) charge around £4.50 a pint. Steep? This is the City of London, so expensive. However charging similar and higher prices in a venture made of some old shipping containers cobbled together with a bit of decking on some derelict land is slightly taking the piss.


Indeed. And even when they're charging £4.50 a pint in the City at least you've got somewhere that's warm and comfortable and with seats and proper tables. I felt proper ripped off when I was handed my squishy plastic container of beer for £5 at Pop, yet some people here seem to insist that there's nothing wrong with charging that kind of price. Some even insist that such prices are "affordable."


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 28, 2015)

Except that Sam Smiths brew their own beer and don't sell other people's.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Comparing Pop with another new venture in the area, you can get a pint of decent real ale at The Junction for £3.80 - in an actual proper glass - and also enjoy great live music for free, in a far comfortable environment.


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 28, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Except that Sam Smiths brew their own beer and don't sell other people's.



True, and that is why I posted again mentioning an average price of around £4.50 in most City pubs. Still can't get away from the irksome point that one is likely to pay around the same or more at Pop.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> A pint in the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet Street is about £3.30, it's a Sam Smiths pub. It's on the tourist trail yet they don't charge exorbitantly.


Top, top class pub too. It's hard to compare anywhere selling alcohol to that place and have it win.


----------



## Manter (Oct 28, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Top, top class pub too. It's hard to compare anywhere selling alcohol to that place and have it win.


They appear to store their wine with cat litter. It's staggeringly bad


----------



## Rushy (Oct 28, 2015)

Worth bearing in mind that the rental of the food and beverage units was always intendeded to subsidise about 90% of the cost of the cheapest office units. They were always a cash cow. Using them as a cash cow was never going to result in cheap prices. The prices are roughly in line with other trendy places and offering cheap beer was never an aim of Grow or Pop.

Sam Smith make their own beer and own their pubs. You can't meaningfully compare that with a site which has to be built and pay for itself within two or three years.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 28, 2015)

Manter said:


> They appear to store their wine with cat litter. It's staggeringly bad


They don't really care much about wine?

Mark of a good pub


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Sam Smith make their own beer and own their pubs. You can't meaningfully compare that with a site which has to be built and pay for itself within two or three years.



Perhaps not, but you can compare prices to pubs in Central London, the City, and discover that Pop prices match or exceed them - incredible really when one considers the rental on commercial property in those areas compared to a derelict site in the salubrious surroundings of Brixton Station Road. But, as you mention, the high prices are there for the gullible to kick start Pop and claw back the initial investment.
My take is that if punters are prepared to be ripped of in such a fashion more fool them - it is however their money and their choice.


----------



## Manter (Oct 28, 2015)

teuchter said:


> They don't really care much about wine?
> 
> Mark of a good pub


Pah!


----------



## ddraig (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Perhaps not, but you can compare prices to pubs in Central London, the City, and discover that Pop prices match or exceed them - incredible really when one considers the rental on commercial property in those areas compared to a derelict site in the salubrious surroundings of Brixton Station Road. But, as you mention, the high prices are there for the gullible to kick start Pop and claw back the initial investment.
> My take is that if punters are prepared to be ripped of in such a fashion more fool them - it is however their money and their choice.


...waiting for the next wriggle from the 'everything pop do is fine OK!' crew


----------



## teuchter (Oct 28, 2015)




----------



## Rushy (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Perhaps not, but you can compare prices to pubs in Central London, the City, and discover that Pop prices match or exceed them - incredible really when one considers the rental on commercial property in those areas compared to a derelict site in the salubrious surroundings of Brixton Station Road. But, as you mention, the high prices are there for the gullible to kick start Pop and claw back the initial investment.
> My take is that if punters are prepared to be ripped of in such a fashion more fool them - it is however their money and their choice.


But it's not a derelict site. The food and beverage retailers are renting units on a business and leisure site which has been successfully developed from a derelict site at huge expense. There will be no residual value in the site at the end of a short two to three year period so costs need to be recouped quickly. 

I get what you are saying but the economics are entirely different.


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

ddraig said:


> ...waiting for the next wriggle from the 'everything pop do is fine OK!' crew


I'm sure it'll be along soon enough, right after the latest moan from the 'Pop gives you cancer' massive.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 28, 2015)

teuchter said:


>


again? how original


----------



## ddraig (Oct 28, 2015)

T & P said:


> I'm sure it'll be along soon enough, right after the latest moan from the 'Pop gives you cancer' massive.


no one said that tho have they. you've overshot yourself, again


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

ddraig said:


> no one said that tho have they. you've overshot yourself, again


Funnily enough no one has ever said what you claimed, either.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 28, 2015)

T & P said:


> Funnily enough no one has ever said what you claimed, either.


closer than your outlandish 'comparison'


----------



## T & P (Oct 28, 2015)

ddraig said:


> closer than your outlandish 'comparison'


Give it time and the claim will be made.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> .....it is however their money and their choice.



This


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 28, 2015)

Something positive: Join us in November for Making Tracks at Pop Brixton

Some bland blogger 'everything's fab' person with rainy pictures: Pop Brixton, Brixton's latest and coolest hang out

Possibly the review written with the least effort in the world ever: REVIEW: Pop Brixton – London


----------



## discobastard (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> A pint in the Cheshire Cheese on Fleet Street is about £3.30, it's a Sam Smiths pub. It's on the tourist trail yet they don't charge exorbitantly.





snowy_again said:


> Except that Sam Smiths brew their own beer and don't sell other people's.





299 old timer said:


> True, and that is why I posted again mentioning an average price of around £4.50 in most City pubs. Still can't get away from the irksome point that one is likely to pay around the same or more at Pop.



On the subject of Sam Smiths, it is cheap wherever you go in the country - they have rather an odd business model.  They also sell only their own brand spirits and everything else and so their margins are much higher (presumably why they can sell their beer cheaper).  Oh and IMO the beer is revolting.

The pubs themselves are pretty grim on the whole too (the toilets in the Princess Louise on Holborn absolutely stank last time I visited).

You can read a whole host of complaints about Sam Smiths here:
SamSmiths - the unofficial news and forums website - for staff and customers.
_"It would appear that the brewery discourage any form of inter-communication, and have banned all venues from having websites. Many individuals have felt isolated, and unsure of their legal rights. Customers have felt frustrated, by not being listened to. Many of the breweries recent corporate decisions, appear to be having an adverse effect on the breweries business on a whole, and many have questioned the motives behind such changes. These include, but are not limited to; the removal of all brewery identification from the exterior of their pubs and vehicles, and the outright banning of music and singing."_

Landlords aren't able to serve their own food, it all has to come from a big factory and be microwaved - so you can't eat anything fresh and there is very little variety.  Justifiably many landlords are angry about this as many would like to offer something better - either creating their own dishes they would be proud of or even following more recent pub/gastro trends.

The brewery is in the village next to where I grew up.  Humphrey Smith owns vast swathes of property across the small town, but for years and years has left them derelict and boarded up and has even been challenged legally by the council to allow them to be put to use as either shops or dwellings but for some reason he continues to refuse.  It's turning the place into a ghost town.

This is halfway relevant, because it is in some way the opposite of what is happening in Brixton.

I'd rather pay an extra £1 to drink something that actually tastes nice, and avoid giving a company like that my money.


----------



## Winot (Oct 28, 2015)

Interesting. I stopped drinking Sam Smiths years ago because it tastes shit. That ^ gives me another good reason.


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 28, 2015)

discobastard said:


> The brewery is in the village next to where I grew up.



Taddy has beena ghost town for as long as i can remember, definitely since they bypassed it......isnt John Smiths there too ?



Winot said:


> Interesting. I stopped drinking Sam Smiths years ago because it tastes shit. That ^ gives me another good reason.



Sam Smiths is good if you can get it from the wood  , and infinitely preferable to John Smiths whereever you get it


----------



## discobastard (Oct 28, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Taddy has beena ghost town for as long as i can remember? isnt John Smiths there too ?
> 
> 
> 
> Sam Smiths is good if you can get it from the wood  , and infinitely preferable to John Smiths whereever you get it


Yeah John Smiths is there too. Don't see much of that round nowadays. There used to be a Bass brewery too but that's now owned by Coors and whatever brands they own. 

It's a real shame re the town as there are some lovely buildings. The place could actually do with some vibrancy [emoji4]


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 28, 2015)

discobastard said:


> It's a real shame re the town as there are some lovely buildings. The place could actually do with some vibrancy [emoji4]



True, maybe Humphrey is scared it will turn into a mini-York where every other shop in the town centre is a restaurant..........


----------



## teuchter (Oct 28, 2015)

I quite like Sam Smiths pubs because of the buildings, the interiors of which they seem to manage to restrain themselves from messing around with, saving them from blandification and faux- this and that. Quite a few of the nicest pub interiors in London are Sam Smiths ones.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Except that Sam Smiths brew their own beer and don't sell other people's.


I like Sam Smiths' pubs. basic but very affordable and unfussy and, unlike some trendy container parks, you get seats and heat and tables and glasses and cover and everything!


----------



## leanderman (Oct 28, 2015)

They claim the £21 Halloween mask-making event sold out.


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> There will be no residual value in the site at the end of a short two to three year period so costs need to be recouped quickly.



i.e. the original investment had some risk attached to it and to alleviate that risk costs are passed on to punters. I wonder what profitability the original investors expected from the site. You don't put in that sort of money (1.5m?) thinking of charity.


----------



## discobastard (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> I like Sam Smiths' pubs. basic but very affordable and unfussy and, unlike some trendy container parks, you get seats and heat and tables and glasses and cover and everything!


What do you think of the way the company is run?


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

leanderman said:


> They claim the £21 Halloween mask-making event sold out.


If anyone has missed out there's a free Halloween Arts & Crafts session at the Carnegie Library aimed at kids. Admission free.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 28, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> i.e. the original investment had some risk attached to it and to alleviate that risk costs are passed on to punters. I wonder what profitability the original investors expected from the site. You don't put in that sort of money (1.5m?) thinking of charity.


Yes. Of course. I don't know how they have done financially but it has certainly been good for CTA's profile.

Dropped in this evening for a pint for the first time in a while after watching James Bond. Port Authority staff were awfully amateur (crap). Took almost 5 minutes for a guy and a girl to serve me despite there being no one else at the bar. Lots of faffing and chatting, no eye contact or "we'll be with you in a moment", eventually took cash without any acknowledgement. Generally unfriendly.  Shame. My mate who moved away about three years ago was rightly amused. Would have ordered elsewhere but he had to catch a train.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yes. Of course. I don't know how they have done financially but it has certainly been good for CTA's profile.
> 
> Dropped in this evening for a pint for the first time in a while after watching James Bond. Port Authority staff were awfully amateur (crap). Took almost 5 minutes for a guy and a girl to serve me despite there being no one else at the bar. Lots of faffing and chatting, no eye contact or "we'll be with you in a moment", eventually took cash without any acknowledgement. Generally unfriendly.  Shame. My mate who moved away about three years ago was rightly amused. Would have ordered elsewhere but he had to catch a train.



Yep. Unconvinced by their competence.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 28, 2015)

Winot said:


> Interesting. I stopped drinking Sam Smiths years ago because it tastes shit. That ^ gives me another good reason.


Most of my colleagues refuse to go to the Sam Smith pub round the corner because the beer's shite.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

Ms T said:


> Most of my colleagues refuse to go to the Sam Smith pub round the corner because the beer's shite.


It's not my favourite beer by a long chalk, but some of my friends are more than happy with the stuff. Some of their beers have even won awards, so it's clearly not all awful stuff.

Even for those who don't find it the tastiest beer around, I guess it's possible to get over the less than perfect taste when you're saving upwards of £1/£1.50 a pint. That can really add up if you're on a budget and out for the night


----------



## shifting gears (Oct 28, 2015)

teuchter said:


> In this week's edition of Pop Brixton Comparisons, we assess whether a halloween night intended for adults is good value as a family day out.



In this week's edition of "Spot The Cock", we establish, beyond any reasonable doubt, that you are in fact, a monstrous bellend.


----------



## shifting gears (Oct 28, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Yes. Of course. I don't know how they have done financially but it has certainly been good for CTA's profile.
> 
> Dropped in this evening for a pint for the first time in a while after watching James Bond. Port Authority staff were awfully amateur (crap). Took almost 5 minutes for a guy and a girl to serve me despite there being no one else at the bar. Lots of faffing and chatting, no eye contact or "we'll be with you in a moment", eventually took cash without any acknowledgement. Generally unfriendly.  Shame. My mate who moved away about three years ago was rightly amused. Would have ordered elsewhere but he had to catch a train.



As above.


----------



## shifting gears (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> It's not my favourite beer by a long chalk, but some of my friends are more than happy with the stuff. Some of their beers have even won awards, so it's clearly not all awful stuff.
> 
> Even for those who don't find it the tastiest beer around, I guess it's possible to get over the less than perfect taste when you're saving upwards of £1/£1.50 a pint. That can really add up if you're on a budget and out for the night



I drink in SS pubs (as in Sam Smith, not Nazi) pubs regularly.

The beer's 'ok'. But then oiks like me can afford it, so I guess some here would shun. Well, shun away. Keeps the boozer free of property developing gentrifying scum. Cheers!


----------



## Manter (Oct 28, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Something positive: Join us in November for Making Tracks at Pop Brixton
> 
> Some bland blogger 'everything's fab' person with rainy pictures: Pop Brixton, Brixton's latest and coolest hang out
> 
> Possibly the review written with the least effort in the world ever: REVIEW: Pop Brixton – London


I like the pigeon pictures on the back wall in pop. And the kids magnetic letters for the menu in vietbox. I know that isn't the point, but hey  

Also see deliveroo driver in the pics- we have had a couple of things deliveroo-ed. quite like that as a thing. No idea what the economics are though


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> I drink in SS pubs (as in Sam Smith, not Nazi) pubs regularly.
> 
> The beer's 'ok'. But then oiks like me can afford it, so I guess some here would shun. Well, shun away. Keeps the boozer free of property developing gentrifying scum. Cheers!


There is definitely some snobbery around Sam Smiths' pubs but, like you say, if that keeps the twats out, that's fine by me.


----------



## brixtonblade (Oct 28, 2015)

MAN IN A BOX


----------



## discobastard (Oct 28, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> I drink in SS pubs (as in Sam Smith, not Nazi) pubs regularly.
> 
> The beer's 'ok'. But then oiks like me can afford it, so I guess some here would shun. Well, shun away. Keeps the boozer free of property developing gentrifying scum. Cheers!


What do you think about the way the company is run? 

And why are you guessing people here would shun it because you can afford it?  Not clear on your logic there.  I'm happy to drink cheap beer as long as its good.


----------



## discobastard (Oct 28, 2015)

editor said:


> It's not my favourite beer by a long chalk, but some of my friends are more than happy with the stuff. Some of their beers have even won awards, so it's clearly not all awful stuff.
> 
> Even for those who don't find it the tastiest beer around, I guess it's possible to get over the less than perfect taste when you're saving upwards of £1/£1.50 a pint. That can really add up if you're on a budget and out for the night



What do you think about the way the company is run?  Homogenised product and owned by somebody whom is denying the use of affordable dwellings and turning (well, turned) the area around the brewery into a ghost town?


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 29, 2015)

shifting gears said:


> The beer's 'ok'. But then oiks like me can afford it, so I guess some here would shun. Well, shun away. Keeps the boozer free of property developing gentrifying scum. Cheers!


To clarify, are you saying some people on urban75 would shun Sam Smiths beer just because it's affordable?


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 29, 2015)

discobastard said:


> On the subject of Sam Smiths, it is cheap wherever you go in the country - they have rather an odd business model.  They also sell only their own brand spirits and everything else and so their margins are much higher (presumably why they can sell their beer cheaper).  Oh and IMO the beer is revolting.
> 
> The pubs themselves are pretty grim on the whole too (the toilets in the Princess Louise on Holborn absolutely stank last time I visited).
> 
> ...


I never knew this, I was always under the impression it was keeping old un-fussy pubs alive, selling its beer at a great price and so always had an amount of affection for Sam Smiths.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 29, 2015)

discobastard said:


> What do you think of the way the company is run?



Don't know enough to make much of a judgement.


----------



## Maharani (Oct 29, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> I am not the promoter or in ny way associated with pop
> as you pointed out earlier the vacuous schpiel in the link required no further comment from me.....


----------



## Maharani (Oct 29, 2015)

Catching up on this thread is: boy oh boy...


----------



## discobastard (Oct 29, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Don't know enough to make much of a judgement.


Cop out


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 29, 2015)

brixtonblade said:


> MAN IN A BOX


Unfortunately Man in A Box (the pils) went a while ago. Which is probably good as that was strangebrew.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

Cllr Jack Hopkins just loves Pop:


> “With early experience of cross subsidy between business and developing a positive commercial mix from POP Brixton, as well as conversations ongoing about the future of the Brixton economy and what different communities need I am confident that we can create something real which will proactively take a lead in shaping the market from within.”


Lambeth Council looks for partner to front up Brixton Works – new organisation with aim of making money out of Council land


----------



## aussw9 (Oct 29, 2015)

editor said:


> It's not my favourite beer by a long chalk, but some of my friends are more than happy with the stuff. Some of their beers have even won awards, so it's clearly not all awful stuff.
> 
> Even for those who don't find it the tastiest beer around, I guess it's possible to get over the less than perfect taste when you're saving upwards of £1/£1.50 a pint. That can really add up if you're on a budget and out for the night



Not everyone wants to get loaded, i am happy to drop an extra 1 to 1.50 on a decent beer and have a couple less. Fucking dire pubs with shite beer, and it seems some very questionable business practices.

But hey as long as its cheap, who cares how we get that price right?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 29, 2015)

"look at my wad!"


----------



## T & P (Oct 29, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Not everyone wants to get loaded, i am happy to drop an extra 1 to 1.50 on a decent beer and have a couple less. Fucking dire pubs with shite beer, and it seems some very questionable business practices.
> 
> But hey as long as its cheap, who cares how we get that price right?


Trade unions are less than happy about the way the company treats its pub landlords as well.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

aussw9 said:


> Not everyone wants to get loaded, i am happy to drop an extra 1 to 1.50 on a decent beer and have a couple less.


For some people, 'dropping an extra £1.50' isn't an option. But you know that, right?


aussw9 said:


> Fucking dire pubs with shite beer...


Loads of people enjoy drinking the stuff and their pubs are always busy when I've been in one. But I guess they just don't share your upmarket and discerning tastes, eh?


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 29, 2015)

Michael explains: “I love hip hop especially Old Skool late 80s and 90s stuff and everyone loves fish and chips but the area was missing this from its array of restaurants. The blend of the two things just felt like a perfect fit for Brixton."

In other news mockney twat Jamie Oliver expresses his new venture in Brixton:

Jamie explains: “I love reggae especially late 70s roots stuff and I also love trad Brit staples like bangers and mash, the blend of the two things just felt like a perfect fit for Brixton. We're opening next month and the gaff is called "Roots and Mash", pukka!"


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Michael explains: “I love hip hop especially Old Skool late 80s and 90s stuff and everyone loves fish and chips but the area was missing this from its array of restaurants. The blend of the two things just felt like a perfect fit for Brixton."
> 
> In other news mockney twat Jamie Oliver expresses his new venture in Brixton:
> 
> Jamie explains: “I love reggae especially late 70s roots stuff and I also love trad Brit staples like bangers and mash, the blend of the two things just felt like a perfect fit for Brixton. We're opening next month and the gaff is called "Roots and Mash", pukka!"


I'll see your Jamie Oliver and I'll raise you a Boom Burger (aka public school boy goes reggae).


----------



## Belushi (Oct 29, 2015)

I'm getting confused between all the different Caribbean places rich white people are suddenly opening in Brixton


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 29, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Jamie explains: “I love reggae especially late 70s roots stuff and I also love trad Brit staples like bangers and mash, the blend of the two things just felt like a perfect fit for Brixton. We're opening next month and the gaff is called "Roots and Mash", pukka!"



I'm praying this is satire.


----------



## discobastard (Oct 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'm praying this is satire.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Oct 29, 2015)

Still praying


----------



## Belushi (Oct 29, 2015)

I lost the ability to distinguish between satire and what's actually going on a while ago.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

We're turning it into a Caribbean Experience TM theme park, run by public schoolboys and pretend independents.


----------



## discobastard (Oct 29, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I never knew this, I was always under the impression it was keeping old un-fussy pubs alive, selling its beer at a great price and so always had an amount of affection for Sam Smiths.





T & P said:


> Trade unions are less than happy about the way the company treats its pub landlords as well.



_A pub landlord and landlady have been suspended and threatened with the sack for serving pints “too full” of beer.
Pete and Debbie Gibson were ordered to close their Junction Inn pub on New Year’s Eve because brewery bosses said the heads on their pints of beer and lager were not big enough.
Pete, 48, and Debbie, 47, say they have been told they owe brewing firm Samuel Smith £10,733 in lost stock for topping up customers’ pints.
The dispute centres on whether or not customers are entitled to ask for more than 95 per cent of their pint glass to be filled and get the pint topped up so there’s less of a frothy head.
Millionaire brewery owner Humphrey Smith turned up at the pub at 8.30pm on New Year’s Eve and told the Gibsons in front of astonished customers that he was shutting it.
The Gibsons have run the Junction Inn, at Royton, near Oldham, Greater Manchester for 12 years. It’s been a pub since Victorian times. They live in the flat above and face losing their home as well as their jobs.
(2012)_

Still no comment on this stuff from Sam Smiths aficionados.  We'll keep this discussion one dimensional I guess.

As long as the beer's cheap, who cares who sells it?


----------



## discobastard (Oct 29, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I lost the ability to distinguish between satire and what's actually going on a while ago.


I think it's more a case that lines between facts, speculation, opinion, hyperbole and various fallacies are somewhat blurred and tend to get used interchangeably, but still all under the broad banner of 'facts'.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 29, 2015)

discobastard said:


> _A pub landlord and landlady have been suspended and threatened with the sack for serving pints “too full” of beer.
> Pete and Debbie Gibson were ordered to close their Junction Inn pub on New Year’s Eve because brewery bosses said the heads on their pints of beer and lager were not big enough.
> Pete, 48, and Debbie, 47, say they have been told they owe brewing firm Samuel Smith £10,733 in lost stock for topping up customers’ pints.
> The dispute centres on whether or not customers are entitled to ask for more than 95 per cent of their pint glass to be filled and get the pint topped up so there’s less of a frothy head.
> ...



Never mind all that, at least the beer is served in a glass and not a squishy plastic cup, and you know, it's indoors in the warm, with a table, etc etc


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Never mind all that, at least the beer is served in a glass and not a squishy plastic cup, and you know, it's indoors in the warm, with a table, etc etc


Will you be launching an equally thorough moralistic examination of all the breweries, businesses and products you purchase during the course of your lifetime, or are you only interested in pursuing the gloriously irrelevant point of this one particular brewery that, as far as I can see, has no connections whatsoever to Pop Brixton or, indeed, Brixton?

There are many outlets in Brixton serving beer much cheaper than Pop. Given that those outlets provide basic comfort items like a roof, proper glasses, seats, tables, heating and often free entertainment, it does make you wonder why anyone should think that paying £5 for an average beer served without any of the above should seem like good value. That, I believe, is the point.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 29, 2015)

editor said:


> Will you be launching an equally thorough moralistic examination of all the breweries, businesses and products you purchase during the course of your lifetime, or are you only interested in pursuing the gloriously irrelevant point of this one particular brewery that, as far as I can see, has no connections whatsoever to Pop Brixton or, indeed, Brixton?
> 
> There are many outlets in Brixton serving beer much cheaper than Pop. Given that those outlets provide basic comfort items like a roof, proper glasses, seats, tables, heating and often free entertainment, it does make you wonder why anyone should think that paying £5 for an average beer served without any of the above should seem like good value. That, I believe, is the point.




The point you seem to be missing is that no one is claiming its 'good value' All people are claiming is that the prices are broadly in line with other venues. Yes, there are places where it's cheaper, and there are also places that are more expensive.

Also I don't see why you are so hung up on the whole glass table heating thing. If that's what you like that's great. In the summer months many people like to be outside standing up having a natter with your friends. God knows it's cold enough in winter that I don't feel the need to be boxed in a dingy pub when it's glorious sunshine outside! Sometimes I like to be in a pub, sometimes outside. The plastic cup thing is a licensing matter as you well know. Who wouldn't rather be drinking out of a glass? It is what it is.

Incidentally, when your down at the football, how important is a roof, tables, chairs and heating? I'm guessing they have a no glass on the terraces rule? You see, these things are just details, an irrelevance to most people.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

deadringer said:


> All people are claiming is that the prices are broadly in line with other venues.


But they're not 'broadly in line' with a lot of venues if you're making any effort to produce a credible comparison. I can reel off a long list of Brixton pubs (and even some clubs) that sell beer cheaper than the £5.00 I was charged - and those places have far greater overheads, given that they're not just basically shunting beers out of a shipping container hatch and providing nothing else.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Incidentally, when your down at the football, how important is a roof, tables, chairs and heating? I'm guessing they have a no glass on the terraces rule? You see, these things are just details, an irrelevance to most people.


I can drink in the warm, covered bar area at the football if I choose, or I can bring my own beers and drink them on the terraces. My choice. 

In the bar, there's a superb selection of local real ales and lagers, all served in proper glasses at far, far cheaper prices than Pop, and on the terraces, well, it's super cheap supermarket prices if I've brought my own. 

So can I bring my own beers into Pop? Nope.
Is there a warm, covered bar area at Pop? Nope.
Are the beers cheaper at Pop? Nope. 
So there goes your absolute non starter of an argument.


----------



## T & P (Oct 29, 2015)

For the purpose of clarity, you can buy beer at £4.50 a pint in Pop. That is indeed broadly in line with with a great many venues in Brixton, and not more unaffordable than them.

Incidentally, given the uber-enthusiastic support a nearby alternative outdoors venue has been given in this forum for the last few months, one has to wonder if the latter enjoyed a Mediterranean micro-climate not available elsewhere in the UK, or if it served drinks in fine crystal glasses for that matter.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 29, 2015)

editor said:


> I can drink in the warm, covered bar area at the football if I choose, or I can bring my own beers and drink them on the terraces. My choice.
> 
> In the bar, there's a superb selection of local real ales and lagers, all served in proper glasses at far, far cheaper prices than Pop, and on the terraces, well, it's super cheap supermarket prices if I've brought my own.
> 
> ...



So, to confirm, your happy to drink from a tin, with no roof, heating, tables and chairs, but not a squishy plastic cup, no roof, table and chairs. Gottcha.

Are you actually allowed to take in your own drinks, or is it a smuggle them in in your pocket jobbie?


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

deadringer said:


> So, to confirm, your happy to drink from a tin, with no roof, heating, tables and chairs, but not a squishy plastic cup, no roof, table and chairs. Gottcha.


I'm absolutely_ delighted_ if I'm paying approx 80p for a tasty - and sturdy - can of my choice and I'm watching a great football match - especially if there's the option to pop into a warm bar with tables, chairs, heating and enjoy beers served in glasses that are considerably cheaper than POP if I'm so inclined. Notably, they've had loads of pre match offers at the football where you can get a pint for just £2.50. 

Oh, and unlike POP, my football ground isn't ringed by security guards checking your bags as you walk in.

I'd stop digging now if I were you.


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## Maharani (Oct 29, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm absolutely_ delighted_ if I'm paying approx 80p for a tasty - and sturdy - can of my choice and I'm watching a great football match - especially if there's the option to pop into a warm bar with tables, chairs, heating and enjoy beers served in glasses that are considerably cheaper than POP if I'm so inclined. Notably, they've had loads of pre match offers at the football where you can get a pint for just £2.50.
> 
> Oh, and unlike POP, my football ground isn't ringed by security guards checking your bags as you walk in.
> 
> I'd stop digging now if I were you.


I second that about booze at the footie ground. It surprised me how relaxed it was but I liked it very much.


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## Rushy (Oct 29, 2015)

Again though, as I understand it, different economic structure. The club is not currently economically viable and had to be propped up by property developers last year.


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## superfly101 (Oct 29, 2015)

Well if Jamie wanted to mix it up with the Hip Hop Chip Shop or even (Acre Lanes') Brixton's Rock he could call it

Gang Bangers n Locash .


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## deadringer (Oct 29, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm absolutely_ delighted_ if I'm paying approx 80p for a tasty - and sturdy - can of my choice and I'm watching a great football match - especially if there's the option to pop into a warm bar with tables, chairs, heating and enjoy beers served in glasses that are considerably cheaper than POP if I'm so inclined. Notably, they've had loads of pre match offers at the football where you can get a pint for just £2.50.
> 
> Oh, and unlike POP, my football ground isn't ringed by security guards checking your bags as you walk in.
> 
> I'd stop digging now if I were you.



And tell me, how much is it to get into this cheap beer utopia? The ground is ringed by stewards who will reserve the right to search you. A bit like pop really. All down to discretion. No doubt you see it as a great hoot smuggling in beers to the footy, possibly breaking licensing laws doing so, as do I at festivals. When I suggested for people down on their luck smuggling in drinks to pop you dismissed that as not much fun. Very confusing, all this flip flopping.

Thing is what you see as good value may not appeal to others, and vice versa. With your ticket, few beers before, during, after, pie, travel if it's an away game, it's easy to rack up £30+ right there. You post up sneery OMG messages about the £32 cost of a gin tasting experience, yet to some that will seem an acceptable price to pay for something they enjoy, if gin is their thing. I know my girlfriend would like to spend an afternoon doing something like that, myself I would rather go to the football. It's all about choices. Nothing wrong with spending your money on beer and football, good luck to you, and there is nothing wrong with spending a similar amount on a meal and a drink, or wine tasting, or any of the other things you deride as being a rip off, when in fact they are similar amounts at the end of the day.

There is only one person digging a hole my friend. Here, give me your hand......


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## teuchter (Oct 29, 2015)

deadringer said:


> When I suggested for people down on their luck smuggling in drinks to pop you dismissed that as not much fun.



I'd just like to take this opportunity to report that I successfully smuggled a Greggs cheese salad baguette into Pop Brixton a couple of months ago - and ate it in front of one of the signs banning food from outside - and it was a LOT of fun. A cheese salad baguette and the rush of adrenaline - a hard combination to beat.


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## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

deadringer said:


> And tell me, how much is it to get into this cheap beer utopia? The ground is ringed by stewards who will reserve the right to search you. A bit like pop really.


You know so little about what goes on at lower league football, it's laughable. You don't get searched at the ground I go to. No one gets searched. Ever.  No handbags are rifled through, no bags are emptied and there are no signs saying that you can't bring in food from outside. In fact, fans often pop out to grab a snack at half time or come up in with massive bags of chips to share.

No "smuggling" is required and the fans bring along their own bin liners to clean up after themselves.

The stewards that are there are volunteers and they do it for free because it's a community club, not a cash-raking nu-Labour investment bonanza, hosting multi-national branding opportunity 'takeovers'.

And the notion of you now including _away travel_ into the argument to prove that Pop Brixton is affordable to all is fabulously, wonderfully, eccentrically daft and desperate. Get a grip. FFS.

Oh, and the ground is "ringed by stewards"? Bwahahahaha. That is fucking priceless!


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## SpamMisery (Oct 29, 2015)

Maybe if supporters bought food and drink from the club rather than smuggling it in, the "battle to save itself against a backdrop of unpaid bills and intrigue over a property deal" might go away


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Maybe if supporters bought food and drink from the club rather than smuggling it in, the "battle to save itself against a backdrop of unpaid bills and intrigue over a property deal" might go away


no actually. the situation when the club was bought was such at the time that most fans bought drinks from the bar. but there were only a couple of hundred fans. tireless work by the fan trust means we now average 1000 fans a saturday and starting to get that way on a tuesday night. and whilst many of us do bring cans in for the duration of the game, getting served is a nightmare due to the numbers. we do stick around at the end and drink from the bar afterwards. by all means continue this petty argument re pop if you wish, but probably best to leave the footy club out of it as you clearly dont have a clue about that and will probably just come across as an arse.

eta same goes for you deadringer


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## SpamMisery (Oct 29, 2015)

My bad


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## editor (Oct 29, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> no actually. the situation when the club was bought was such at the time that most fans bought drinks from the bar. but there were only a couple of hundred fans. tireless work by the fan trust means we now average 1000 fans a saturday and starting to get that way on a tuesday night. and whilst many of us do bring cans in for the duration of the game, getting served is a nightmare due to the numbers. we do stick around at the end and drink from the bar afterwards. by all means continue this petty argument re pop if you wish, but probably best to leave the footy club out of it as you clearly dont have a clue about that and will probably just come across as an arse.
> 
> eta same goes for you deadringer


Properly pwned, LOL!

Some of the fans have done such a good job of promoting the club that bringing along a can or two is the only way you're going to get a beer and be able to watch the entire game because of the crowds, but as you say, fans often drink in the bar before and after the game.

The fact that people can bring in their own cans and food also means that a lot of people who may not otherwise be able to come to the game can now afford it, especially if they're students/unemployed etc. It's a win all round, for the clubs and the fans.


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## SpamMisery (Oct 29, 2015)

I'm going to miss this banter when I have children old enough to go to a grammar school in the Home Counties.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 29, 2015)

It's procreated. Lord help us.


----------



## bimble (Oct 29, 2015)

If a person read this thread all the way from page one to here, I think that would count as a dystopian novel. I'm going to give it a go.


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## SpamMisery (Oct 29, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It's procreated. Lord help us.



Lol, although I didn't say I had kids


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I'm going to miss this banter when I have children old enough to go to a grammar school in the Home Counties.


why? they have the interwebs in the home counties too you know. and gout. its all that fancy fare they like to shovel down their gullets.


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## Nanker Phelge (Oct 29, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Lol, although I didn't say I had kids



Well....good luck with it.


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## cuppa tee (Oct 29, 2015)

Menu for the popfeast decadent ding dong dining experience released.................

_Cured Italian meats with wood roasted figs - Made of Dough 

Vietnamese cod croquetas - VietBox 

Prawn ceviche tostada - Maria Sabina 

Pork and rice - Koi Ramen 

Thanksgiving turkey! - Miss P's 

Cake shake - Super cute

_


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## teuchter (Oct 29, 2015)

bimble said:


> If a person read this thread all the way from page one to here, I think that would count as a dystopian novel. I'm going to give it a go.


Select five pages at random, then just read them 32 times over - it will have the same effect.


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## discobastard (Oct 29, 2015)

editor said:


> Will you be launching an equally thorough moralistic examination of all the breweries, businesses and products you purchase during the course of your lifetime, or are you only interested in pursuing the gloriously irrelevant point of this one particular brewery that, as far as I can see, has no connections whatsoever to Pop Brixton or, indeed, Brixton?
> 
> There are many outlets in Brixton serving beer much cheaper than Pop. Given that those outlets provide basic comfort items like a roof, proper glasses, seats, tables, heating and often free entertainment, it does make you wonder why anyone should think that paying £5 for an average beer served without any of the above should seem like good value. That, I believe, is the point.



I would respectfully put that you completely miss the point here - as well as a good opportunity for a half decent debate (never mind all that bollocks about football grounds).

Firstly, the big issue that people have with Pop is the fact that it was promised to be one thing and turned out to be another.  That is something that will not change, no matter what.  The fact that_some_ places sell beer at £5 a Pop and may be unaffordable to some is also true.  And is clearly something that makes some people angry.  But _you_ trying to define what good value is on everybody’s behalf is ultimately fruitless.  We all know what your definition of good value is.  And it’s not a £5 pint.  Fine.  You seem to be quite well disposed towards the Railway, in which the beer prices are ridiculous (some over £5).  But the Railway is a much nicer place to be, no?  Not to everybody.  I don’t like the Railway atmosphere (I don’t like Pop either).  I’d rather drink in the Tulse Hill Hotel where I can get a really nice pint of Ship Full Sail for £3.75

So we both have the same issue, just about different places and we both sit in completely different contexts.  Everybody defines value according to a number of things including but by no means limited to their income.  People (I don’t like the term consumers because I think it dehumanises) are irrational, and there are lots of things that drive their behaviour.  Environmental, social and economic factors.  There are lots of books on the subject (Coonsumerology, Thinking Fast & Slow etc.)  So simply saying that because a beer is X price and there isn’t any heating addresses only about 20% of the issue around what people think is acceptable for them or not.  And people have a choice – and that includes going to cheap pubs like Sam Smiths as well as going to a ‘glam’ and ‘trendy’ location like Pop.  Nobody here really has the right to say one thing is bad and the other good.  There are plenty wankers in Sam Smiths pubs and nice people in Pop – and also plenty wankers in Pop and nice people in Sam Smiths pubs.

Anyway, somebody up there up on this thread stated that actually, Sam Smiths beer is really cheap even though it’s on the tourist trail.  And intimated that this was a good thing.  And some others, including yourself, have said that Sam Smiths is probably a good thing because the pubs are down to earth and the beer is ‘OK’.  Somebody even went as far as to say that because it is so cheap it keeps the gentrifying wankers out (I’m not quite sure of the logic there myself – there are plenty of lawyers and bankers that drink in the Cittie of York on Holborn – and that’s a truly fucking horrible pub IN MY OPINION)

But everything comes at a price, and in fact, Sam Smiths as a company is actually rather unpleasant.  There is a lot of evidence to suggest (all outlined above) that it:

·  Treats Landlords rather badly and makes unreasonable demands on them (both financially and in terms of how they are able to run their businesses) – sounds a bit like some of the pubs that have recently shut and the issues around rent that some of the Brixton businesses have suffered

·  Imposes cheap microwaved food on the customers who choose to drink there (and in some villages/towns there are only one or two pubs and therefore no choice)

·  Is actively having a detrimental impact on the local area in which it is situated, making a ghost town of Tadcaster and denying the creation of dwellings for local people and local businesses

You’ve claimed this dialogue is irrelevant, but at the same time it has been brought into the discussion as a comparison to what is available as an alternative to the likes of Pop.  And there are clearly some issues that are related to what is happening in Brixton (homes, rent, corporate bullying). 

Now, when somebody pointed out that they would rather not drink several poor quality Sam Smiths beers and instead spend their limited disposable income on fewer but better beers, one response was “look at my wad!”.  That is certainly not intelligent debate is it?  That is a misappropriation of the point and a rather staggeringly stupid and wholesale misunderstanding of the relationship between quality and quantity – which is a real decision people can make whatever their income (though tbf the individual who made that ejaculation is not well known for their contribution to intelligent debate so let’s park that because I suspect they are largely ignored in any case – I would put them on ignore but they are entertaining in a slightly melancholy way).

So, the question is dear editor (and let me be really clear about this – I am not attacking, being snide or trying to be cute in any way) – is cheap beer in an old fashioned pub *better* than Pop when they are in fact behaving much the same as the organisations that are having such a detrimental impact on Brixton (an issue with which I wholeheartedly agree)?  Or is it all more complicated and we might possibly admit that collectively?

How do those who think Sam Smiths are a good thing because they offer cheap (and not particularly nice) beer and warm pubs feel about the fact that the company behaves like this?  To be really clear, it is not that one is trying to make a direct comparison, just that there is a discussion to be had about the alternatives to Pop and whether they are actually any better.  Sam Smiths has been defended here as a positive alternative.  Clearly they are not the only alternative but rather than everybody bitching about how much a pint costs at the local football, it could add some interesting context to the flame war about what is good/bad and affordable/not affordable. 

Rather than anybody fearing that they will lose face or be ‘wrong’ about something (I’m always happy to admit if I feel I’m wrong about something – I did that up there somewhere), I just think it would be good to open the debate up and include some context about some of the alternatives to Pop rather than the usual ‘why would anybody want to spend more than £X on a pint of beer’.  Because it is SO much much more complicated than that.  And continuing to take that line does nobody’s intellect any favours. 

I personally don’t think that it is a ‘gloriously irrelevant’ point.

But if it’s not of interest, seriously no worries, one can choose not to engage in a conversation that might mean everybody making some compromises and concessions.  Just putting it out there.

(Anyway, I’m on ignore still – a bit past the month that was originally specified - so you may or may not read this.  Don’t mind either way – maybe somebody else might like to pick it up – but if not then that is cool too.  There are no grudges to bear, not from me anyway )


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## leanderman (Oct 30, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> Menu for the popfeast decadent ding dong dining experience released.................
> 
> _Cured Italian meats with wood roasted figs - Made of Dough
> 
> ...



Sounds good


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## bimble (Oct 30, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Select five pages at random, then just read them 32 times over - it will have the same effect.


Yes, the twist came very early, from around page 4 , when someone explains what the rents are for each container.

Can someone explain please what income does the council get from Pop?


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## Rushy (Oct 30, 2015)

bimble said:


> Yes, the twist came very early, from around page 4 , when someone explains what the rents are for each container.
> 
> Can someone explain please what income does the council get from Pop?


They have no rental income from the land which they put in for free in return for Pop stumping up development costs (about£1,500,000) and project management. They have a 50/50 profit share with Pop. Some reasonable questions out there about how the profit might be calculated. Pop were only guaranteed two years or so, so they need to be able to recoup costs and make a return quickly. 

Lambeth also benefit from business rates income.


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## 299 old timer (Oct 30, 2015)

Rushy said:


> They have no rental income from the land which they put in for free in return for Pop stumping up development costs (about£1,500,000) and project management. They have a 50/50 profit share with Pop. Some reasonable questions out there about how the profit might be calculated. Pop were only guaranteed two years or so, so they need to be able to recoup costs and make a return quickly.
> 
> Lambeth also benefit from business rates income.



So, at the end of the day it's just another entrepreneurial scheme to make a profit for someone somewhere, irrespective of what the site could actually be (in respect of a potential community asset).
Land it slap bang in the middle of a trendy part of town well known these days for food, clubs, cinema and music, and hope the punters will pay over the odds for what is frankly a fairly ordinary experience. Wrap the fawning PR blurb with the usual chud about community involvement and green oases, and hey presto!


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 30, 2015)

Is it hypothetically possible, that if it proves to be a 'success', Lambeth can extend the lease, start to recieve rent, and in effect Pop becomes a permanent fixture? I've always felt that too much has gone into setting it up for just a two year or so existance.


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## Crispy (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Is it hypothetically possible, that if it proves to be a 'success', Lambeth can extend the lease, start to recieve rent, and in effect Pop becomes a permanent fixture? I've always felt that too much has gone into setting it up for just a two year or so existance.


No. The land is worth far, _far_ more as a development site.


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## Dan U (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Is it hypothetically possible, that if it proves to be a 'success', Lambeth can extend the lease, start to recieve rent, and in effect Pop becomes a permanent fixture? I've always felt that too much has gone into setting it up for just a two year or so existance.



Depending what happens at the spending review in November, many councils may well have to move to only delivering what they are statutorily obliged to deliver and any 'nice to do's/discretionary spend' will stop unless it can demonstrate payback. If any proposals exist or emerge that would make Lambeth more money or meet other obligations (such as Housing etc.) post Pop, hard to see they would be able to carry on with Pop.

eta - Crispy just said the same thing, better


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## Rushy (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Is it hypothetically possible, that if it proves to be a 'success', Lambeth can extend the lease, start to recieve rent, and in effect Pop becomes a permanent fixture? I've always felt that too much has gone into setting it up for just a two year or so existance.





Crispy said:


> No. The land is worth far, _far_ more as a development site.


Of course, you're both right. It's perfectly possible that it will carry on for a good few years (not permanent) until bigger plans are finalised. Nevertheless, the current developers have to work within the short time frame they have been guaranteed by the lease. Even if it is extended, the terms may be very different.


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 30, 2015)

This seems to indicate the longer term vision. (Too big to post but heres a link)
http://futurebrixton.org/wp-content...Central-Understanding-the-design-approach.jpg


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## 299 old timer (Oct 30, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Just putting it out there.



Thanks for this. I only mentioned Sam Smiths to pad out my description of a pub that is capable of selling cheap beer in a high ground rent zone, which as far as I can tell is the opposite of Pop (although Rushy mentions that this is to cover costs quickly). I never knew that about Sam Smiths, the company, very interesting. I know old work colleagues who drink there regularly at lunchtime (precisely because it is cheap), although the beer is nothing special tbh.
Still, sparked off a surreal discussion!


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## T & P (Oct 30, 2015)

Every subject discussed on this thread takes a surreal turn before long.


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## teuchter (Oct 30, 2015)

The info on the Sam Smiths operaton is interesting and might make me a little bit less enthusiastic about giving them custom in the future.

However, I'm not sure most pub chain/brewery operations are much better. I'd expect that for pretty much any pub, a bit of googling the owner would bring up disgruntled employees/landlords, and business practices including selling off property to highest bidder, etc etc. And Antic with their tax dodging antics. And so on.


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## isvicthere? (Oct 30, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> I'm going to miss this banter when I have children old enough to go to a grammar school in the Home Counties.



More invincible trollage from the cat in the top hat.


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> So, at the end of the day it's just another entrepreneurial scheme to make a profit for someone somewhere, irrespective of what the site could actually be (in respect of a potential community asset).
> Land it slap bang in the middle of a trendy part of town well known these days for food, clubs, cinema and music, and hope the punters will pay over the odds for what is frankly a fairly ordinary experience. Wrap the fawning PR blurb with the usual chud about community involvement and green oases, and hey presto!


Yep. That's it. We're being treated like mugs.


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## deadringer (Oct 30, 2015)

editor said:


> You know so little about what goes on at lower league football, it's laughable. You don't get searched at the ground I go to. No one gets searched. Ever.  No handbags are rifled through, no bags are emptied and there are no signs saying that you can't bring in food from outside. In fact, fans often pop out to grab a snack at half time or come up in with massive bags of chips to share.
> 
> No "smuggling" is required and the fans bring along their own bin liners to clean up after themselves.
> 
> ...



Ah, apologies then, I stand corrected on being allowed to take in your own booze. So I can rock up with a 4 pack in hand and be waved in? That is pretty impressive.

The cost of away travel is entirely relevant as its part and parcel of what you see an acceptable amount of money to spend on a few hours entertainment. You wax lyrical about the demographic with the disposable income needed to spend at Pop, but you are that demographic with the right amount of disposable income, you just choose to spend it somewhere else that makes you happy, as is your right, and no one does or should make you feel bad for that. So in the same vein, if someone wants to spend their disposable income on a wine tasting night, or to watch a Halloween film, why should that attract the kind of sneery ridicule that it does?


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The cost of away travel is entirely relevant...


It's really not you know.


deadringer said:


> You wax lyrical about the demographic with the disposable income needed to spend at Pop, but you are that demographic with the right amount of disposable income


Err, I'm not. I can't afford to slurp £10 cocktails, spend £35 on a supper club jolly or go out 'grazing' every night, although compared to many people on my estate I'm doing alright. But who cares about them when there's global tastebuds to be tingled with like minded well-off people!


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## deadringer (Oct 30, 2015)

editor said:


> It's really not you know.
> Err, I'm not. I can't afford to slurp £10 cocktails, spend £35 on a supper club jolly or go out 'grazing' every night, although compared to many people on my estate I'm doing alright. But who cares about them when there's global tastebuds to be tingled with like minded well-off people!



But you can. If you can afford to spend £30+ on an afternoon out doing something you enjoy, you can afford either of those things you've just mentioned. It's just not your thing. Which is fine, but I still can't fathom why someone would wouldn't spend £30+ on an afternoon at the football, but would like to slurp 3 cocktails, or a supperclub jolly is so deserving of the sneery comments it attracts.


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 30, 2015)

deadringer said:


> But you can. If you can afford to spend £30+ on an afternoon out doing something you enjoy, you can afford either of those things you've just mentioned. It's just not your thing. Which is fine, but I still can't fathom why someone would wouldn't spend £30+ on an afternoon at the football, but would like to slurp 3 cocktails, or a supperclub jolly is so deserving of the sneery comments it attracts.



because its symptomatic of a much wider issue which is having a negative impact on the established community. And if you took a step back, and stopped just trying to have personal digs, you might just see that.


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## deadringer (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> because its symptomatic of a much wider issue which is having a negative impact on the established community. And if you took a step back, and stopped just trying to have personal digs, you might just see that.



Pesrsonal digs? I'm respectfully using an example of what someone likes doing and comparing it to what others may enjoy.


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 30, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Pesrsonal digs? I'm respectfully using an example of what someone likes doing and comparing it to what others may enjoy.


Thats not how you come across to me.


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## leanderman (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> because its symptomatic of a much wider issue which is having a negative impact on the established community. And if you took a step back, and stopped just trying to have personal digs, you might just see that.



Coming back to Pop, I have seen some evidence posted here that it is having a positive impact on the community. And I'm not sure how useful the word 'established' is.


----------



## deadringer (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Thats not how you come across to me.



That's unfortunate. Despite being called a wanker and cunt, amongst other things, I always try to post well thought out posts, without swearing. You and others may disagree with what I say, which is fair enough, it is a message board after all so I fully expect that.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 30, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Coming back to Pop, I have seen some evidence posted here that it is having a positive impact on the community. And I'm not sure how useful the word 'established' is.


I wasn't just referring to Pop by wider issues. Pop is part of those changes. And yes I agree, 'established' wasn't the correct word. Theyre may have been some positive impact, but has it been enough? Or has been the bare minimum in order for them to get away with basicaling setting up a retail office space rather than a community green space.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 30, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Ah, apologies then, I stand corrected on being allowed to take in your own booze. So I can rock up with a 4 pack in hand and be waved in? That is pretty impressive.



According to the recent Guardian article about DHFC, the protocol is to show up with a load of craft-brewed hipster ale which you have purchased in Peckham.


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 30, 2015)

teuchter said:


> According to the recent Guardian article about DHFC, the protocol is to show up with a load of craft-brewed hipster ale which you have purchased in Peckham.


The Guardian! must be true then.


----------



## T & P (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> I wasn't just referring to Pop by wider issues. Pop is part of those changes. And yes I agree, 'established' wasn't the correct word. Theyre may have been some positive impact, but has it been enough? Or has been the bare minimum in order for them to get away with basicaling setting up a retail office space rather than a community green space.


There might be room for improvement- as it there is almost everywhere else- but Pop is not the demonic, destructive entity some would paint it as either. It is certainly not beyond criticism (and no one here ever suggested that) but it is not deserving of the regular unfounded criticism it gets either.

Some people seem hellbent in turning every last story, every last angle related to Pop into a negative one. The affordability issue is a prime example. There are those constantly quoting the highest price they've seen advertised within Pop for an alcoholic drink as the representative, or indeed _only, _price available. If left unchecked, the price of £7 a pint (or bottled equivalent) is happily touted about. As I and others keep having to point out, you can buy a pint of beer for £4.50, which is indeed broadly in line with the majority of venues in Brixton, and just as affordable to most people who have enough disposable income to contemplate having a few drinks out. It is absurd to suggest otherwise.

Whatever one might think of the organisers and backers of the project, Pop is formed of many independent retailers offering different products at different prices. I'd certainly be less than pleased if I were a trader in there offering reasonable prices only to see a bunch of people describing the entire site as a rip off because some retailers charge too much. That makes as much sense as stating every Atlantic Road trader is a a rip-off merchant because you'd been charged too much by one of them.

And when it's not that, it's everything else. The place gets dismissed as unappealing because it's open to the elements and serves booze in plastic glasses, while a nearby outdoor venue, presumably experiencing the same weather patterns and also forced to serve drinks in plastic, gets lauded as the greatest thing since sliced bread. If a cinema evening is scheduled, it is remarked that someone somewhere else once offered a free cinema screening. If they give away free vegetable produce, people question if they've been grown on-site.

The levels of obsession with the place and the urge some people have to try to turn every last event and happening associated with Pop into a bad thing, no matter how ludicrous (such as handing out of free vegetables), is simply extraordinary.


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## Lucy Fur (Oct 30, 2015)

T & P said:


> There might be room for improvement- as it there is almost everywhere else- but Pop is not the demonic, destructive entity some would paint it at either. It is certainly not beyond criticism (and no one here ever suggested that) but it is not deserving of the regular unfounded criticism it gets either.
> 
> Some people seem hellbent in in turning every last story, every last angle related to Pop into a negative one. The affordability issue is a prime example. There are those constantly quoting the highest price they've seen advertised within Pop for an alcoholic drink as the representative, or indeed _only, _price available. If left unchecked, the price of £7 a pint (or bottled equivalent) is happily touted about. As I and others keep having to point out, you can buy a pint of beer for £4.50, which is indeed in broadly line with the majority of venues in Brixton, and just as affordable to most people who have enough disposable income to contemplate having a few drinks out. It is absurd to suggest otherwise.
> 
> ...



I take some of your points, certainly the endless is it / isn't it overpriced / how much should a beer cost etc, etc has been tedious and also besides the point. As deadringer (I think pointed out) people are free to spend their money on whatever they want, and what people want and put value on is always going to differ. 

And yes Pop is villified, because I think many people felt it was a step to far. It's arrival coincided with the Cressingham Gardens, the threat to the busnesses under the Arches, the closure of some much loved businesses and pubs through out Brixton, and a seemingly endless appearance of blocks of luxury flats (always with the luxury! whats wrong with a fair to middlin flats FFS). So against this, what was initialy sold as a community green space etc etc (and yes I get that maybe that was never a plausable reality) turns out to be yet more gentrification, so now hackles have been raised. If thats unfair on Pop, so be it, it's not even close to how unfair all that I listed above have been treated.


----------



## Winot (Oct 30, 2015)

Honest post Lucy Fur. I think that's about right.


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> And yes Pop is villified, because I think many people felt it was a step to far. It's arrival coincided with the Cressingham Gardens, the threat to the busnesses under the Arches, the closure of some much loved businesses and pubs through out Brixton, and a seemingly endless appearance of blocks of luxury flats (always with the luxury! whats wrong with a fair to middlin flats FFS). So against this, what was initialy sold as a community green space etc etc (and yes I get that maybe that was never a plausable reality) turns out to be yet more gentrification, so now hackles have been raised. If thats unfair on Pop, so be it, it's not even close to how unfair all that I listed above have been treated.


I don't think it's ever really been about the individual businesses, but more about the way that a lot of people feel cheated by the way that this place was initially sold and what was delivered.

We were promised what looked like a real grassroots community asset and a "green oasis" and just got another all-gentrifying "21st century business park" complete with multinational 'takeovers'  and all the other guff that has slithered in via its guarded portals.

Yes, some good stuff does take place there, but the majority of what Pop Brixton stands for seems a million miles away from what I - and many other people I know - thought we were getting, hence the anger and bitterness.

Being told to shush or stop complaining doesn't help either . I think it's a good thing that people are trying to keep up the pressure and it's not too far fetched a notion to image that such  pressure may influence future events there.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 30, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't think it's ever really been about the individual businesses.



Unless they sell wine from NZ.


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2015)

Dan U said:


> Unless they sell wine from NZ.


I thought it was inappropriate for the first announced business there and I stand by that. I've got nothing against the actual people running it though. Why should I?


----------



## leanderman (Oct 30, 2015)

editor said:


> I don't think it's ever really been about the individual businesses, but more about the way that a lot of people feel cheated by the way that this place was initially sold and what was delivered.
> 
> We were promised what looked like a real grassroots community asset and a "green oasis" and just got another all-gentrifying "21st century business park" complete with multinational 'takeovers'  and all the other guff that has slithered in via its guarded portals.
> 
> ...



Yet, as has been shown here many times, Pop is far from a million miles away from what was promised.

If a lot of people that you know think otherwise, it's easy to see where they get this misapprehension from.


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Yet, as has been shown here many times, Pop is far from a million miles away from what was promised.


That's my opinion and a heartfelt one and it's one shared by a lot of the people I know. And I mean a LOT, as in almost everyone. You live in a different world to me so I'm not surprised that you don't hear the same thing.


----------



## leanderman (Oct 30, 2015)

editor said:


> That's my opinion and a heartfelt one and it's one shared by a lot of the people I know. And I mean a LOT, as in almost everyone. You live in a different world to me so I'm not surprised that you don't hear the same thing.



The differences you presume upon make no difference as to whether or not Pop is 'a million miles away' from what was promised.


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The differences you presume upon make no difference as to whether or not Pop is 'a million miles away' from what was promised.


They are actually, but I don't expect you to understand that and I don't think there's much point me trying to explain either, so I'll leave it at that.


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 30, 2015)




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## bimble (Oct 30, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> I take some of your points, certainly the endless is it / isn't it overpriced / how much should a beer cost etc, etc has been tedious and also besides the point. As deadringer (I think pointed out) people are free to spend their money on whatever they want, and what people want and put value on is always going to differ.
> 
> And yes Pop is villified, because I think many people felt it was a step to far. It's arrival coincided with the Cressingham Gardens, the threat to the busnesses under the Arches, the closure of some much loved businesses and pubs through out Brixton, and a seemingly endless appearance of blocks of luxury flats (always with the luxury! whats wrong with a fair to middlin flats FFS). So against this, what was initialy sold as a community green space etc etc (and yes I get that maybe that was never a plausable reality) turns out to be yet more gentrification, so now hackles have been raised. If thats unfair on Pop, so be it, it's not even close to how unfair all that I listed above have been treated.


Admit i did skip the middle 100 or so pages of this story but this seems to sum it up really well. 
Going on about the price of a beer reminds me a lot of the 'justification' used for the decision of Fuck Parade 3 to single out as a target for their anti gentrification party that little overpriced bowls of cocopop shop in shoreditch  - seems to me the context is where the meaning is, not the price of an overpriced beer


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## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2015)

bimble said:


> Admit i did skip the middle 100 or so pages of this story but this seems to sum it up really well.
> Going on about the price of a beer reminds me a lot of the 'justification' used for the decision of Fuck Parade 3 to single out as a target for their anti gentrification party that little overpriced bowls of cocopop shop in shoreditch  - seems to me the context is where the meaning is, not the price of an overpriced beer



I at some point on this thread compared LJAGs farm and the "Platform" with Pop. If Pop have ended up like LJAGs farm and the platform I don’t think those of us here critical of the way that Pop ended up would have complained so much.

Yet LJAGs farm is vilified up in LJ as the start of gentrification. Had someone from Loughborough Estate complaining to me about it last night.

So what is your take on the farm up in LJ as a "Meanwhile" use as compared to "Pop" meanwhile use of this site?

Up in LJ on the estate Pop is much disliked and they have said they do not want anything like Pop up in LJ. Cost being part of the issue. This is on public land- and yet offers nothing to people on an estate in a deprived area like LJ Estate.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> If Pop have ended up like LJAGs farm and the platform I don’t think those of us here critical of the way that Pop ended up would have complained so much.


That's the bit that I had no clue about until I found page one of this thread - where you can find a link to the original winning bid / plan (Grow:Brixton).
It says
They propose ‘grow:brixton’, a place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. Grow:brixton gives young people of Brixton the chance to acquire new skills in building, gardening or music, offering apprenticeships and opportunities.

They aim to give young local businesses the chance to get started in rented, affordable accommodation amongst other like-minded people. Their vision is for a self-sufficient community, organised and run by designers, builders and gardeners and managed through the local residents and small businesses. It would offer a public green space in the heart of Brixton and a place for locals to meet, eat and enjoy.

Which does sound VERY similar to the bid currently being submitted up in LJ for the land now being used as the farm don't you think?
Went into Pop last night & had a walk around - it was rammed with young people all having a great time apparently just not sure how many of them were local gardening apprentices. .
The LJ plot is designated KIBA remember, and so the farm is sort of 'illegal' use far as I understand it, and something with employment in will have to replace it.


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 31, 2015)

bimble said:


> That's the bit that I had no clue about until I found page one of this thread - where you can find a link to the original winning bid / plan (Grow:Brixton).



The PR blurb is in direct contradiction to reality on the ground. A £1.5m investment for a limited period on a desirable plot of land. Look through the fog and see that this is a sly way of passing public land over to developers. I thank Rushy for his posts which clarified my initial thoughts on the matter.


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## Rushy (Oct 31, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I thank Rushy for his posts which clarified my initial thoughts on the matter.


Only too pleased to have been of assistance. I think.


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## 299 old timer (Oct 31, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Only too pleased to have been of assistance. I think.




In reality, forget the price of beer, the bouncers, the non existent green oasis etc etc and cut to the chase and ask oneself:
Why did an entrepreneur invest £1.5m in a short lease site? That's a lot of money. As I said earlier, it's not done for charity and it's not done for the community.


----------



## Rushy (Oct 31, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> In reality, forget the price of beer, the bouncers, the non existent green oasis etc etc and cut to the chase and ask oneself:
> Why did an entrepreneur invest £1.5m in a short lease site? That's a lot of money. As I said earlier, it's not done for charity and it's not done for the community.


The project always had to be self funding. It was in the original competition brief. That means someone else had to put the money in and it had to generate its own income. I don't see how anyone can reasonably be surprised that it was not all a big charity donation.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2015)

Rushy said:


> The project always had to be self funding. It was in the original competition brief. That means someone else had to put the money in and it had to generate its own income. I don't see how anyone can reasonably be surprised that it was not all a big charity donation.


So the original winning bid , which was quite humble looking  (one storey and full of space for growing things) that still met the self-funding criteria because it did not cost over a million to construct, right?

The new version said plainly:
 "We are a commercial venture, the overall cost of the project is over £1 million pounds that needs recouping over a 30 months period as it is entirely financed by private capital.”

I noticed yesterday that at the back not yet open there are 4 stories of boxes stacked on top of each other with plate glass sliding doors etc..


----------



## Rushy (Oct 31, 2015)

bimble said:


> So the original winning bid , which was quite humble looking  (one storey and full of space for growing things) that still met the self-funding criteria because it did not cost over a million to construct, right?
> 
> I noticed yesterday that at the back not yet open there are 4 stories of boxes stacked on top of each other with plate glass sliding doors etc..


Not sure what plans you are looking at. Pre-selection presentation to competition committee in April last year clearly shows three stories and plan relies on commercial office and food/drink concessions rental and corporate sponsorship. Rent from these was always intended to subsidise cheaper rents for selected start up businesses.

Corporate sponsorship was not very forthcoming during the development phase so further commercial was sought - hence second planning application work more containers.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 31, 2015)

bimble said:


> That's the bit that I had no clue about until I found page one of this thread - where you can find a link to the original winning bid / plan (Grow:Brixton).
> It says
> They propose ‘grow:brixton’, a place that brings together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing. Grow:brixton gives young people of Brixton the chance to acquire new skills in building, gardening or music, offering apprenticeships and opportunities.
> 
> ...



The original Grow Brixton was similar to present use of the land in LJ and the Platform.

Its interesting to see the difference in opinion of this thread and up at LJ. Up at LJ no need for pages of argument about what Pop is and what was supposed to happen. Up at Loughborough Estate the Council tenants realise what Pop is.  And they dont want it up at LJ. This is refreshing to hear. Said before the a lot of people on estates dont like Pop. Nothing there for them. 

LJ Farm is "meanwhile" use like at Pop. So not illegal. But agree there are similarities between the bid for grant for the Farm and Grow Brixton.

I can fully understand why - seeing what happened at Pop - the Council tenants up at LJ are highly sceptical of bid for LJ. The other parallels are the similarities/ differences between Brixton Green and LJAG. BG leading light is involved in Pop.

My point was that with my experience of Brixton I dont see LJAG or the Farm as that bad. They have made mistakes but if anything LJAG have not been hard headed and ruthless as Brixton Green and Carl Turner have been in Brixton.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2015)

Belushi said:


> I lost the ability to distinguish between satire and what's actually going on a while ago.



(((((Belushi)))))


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2015)

deadringer said:


> You see, these things are just details, an irrelevance to most people.



It's so good of you to speak for"most people" when you have no mandate to.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Not sure what plans you are looking at. Pre-selection presentation to competition committee in April last year clearly shows three stories and plan relies on commercial office and food/drink concessions rental and corporate sponsorship. Rent from these was always intended to subsidise cheaper rents for selected start up businesses.
> 
> Corporate sponsorship was not very forthcoming during the development phase so further commercial was sought - hence second planning application work more containers.



You're right, there is a place with 3 storeys of stacked boxes in the Grow Brixton plan picture I was looking at, sloppy remembering by me


- but is it true that the original approved proposal was only about half the area we have now?


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> My point was that with my experience of Brixton I dont see LJAG or the Farm as that bad. They have made mistakes but if anything LJAG have not been hard headed and ruthless as Brixton Green and Carl Turner have been in Brixton.



Yes. I am not one of the partizan anti-LJAG people not at all, just think you have to see them as what they are - not a community council but a well meaning & fallible local pressure group. 
Curious to find out where they should have been more ruthless , do you mean re Higgs ?


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## leanderman (Oct 31, 2015)

bimble said:


> You're right, there is a place with 3 storeys of stacked boxes in the Grow Brixton plan picture I was looking at, sloppy remembering by me
> View attachment 78866
> 
> - but is it true that the original approved proposal was only about half the area we have now?



We can't keep going over this.


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2015)

leanderman said:


> We can't keep going over this.


ok, I know just being too lazy to read the whole thread & do the forensics by myself  (late bloomer)


----------



## bimble (Oct 31, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> In reality, forget the price of beer, the bouncers, the non existent green oasis etc etc and cut to the chase and ask oneself:
> Why did an entrepreneur invest £1.5m in a short lease site? That's a lot of money. As I said earlier, it's not done for charity and it's not done for the community.




"We are a commercial venture, the overall cost of the project is over £1 million pounds that needs recouping over a 30 months period as it is entirely financed by private capital.”


----------



## 299 old timer (Oct 31, 2015)

bimble said:


> "We are a commercial venture, the overall cost of the project is over £1 million pounds that needs recouping over a 30 months period as it is entirely financed by private capital.”



Of that there is no doubt. What I and others are saying is why here, and why now. I suspect the council abnegating its responsibility for the land and a desire to pass it off to developers - please correct me if I am off course in my thoughts.


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## technical (Oct 31, 2015)

leanderman said:


> We can't keep going over this.


Want to bet?


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## brixtonblade (Oct 31, 2015)

editor said:


> If anyone has missed out there's a free Halloween Arts & Crafts session at the Carnegie Library aimed at kids. Admission free.
> 
> View attachment 78687


This was really good.  Loads of kids there and they all had a great time.

A few people out the front were collecting signatures to complain about the council plans.  I really hope they are successful - it's a lovely venue and it was full today, that won't happen if it's a gym.


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## Gramsci (Oct 31, 2015)

bimble said:


> Yes. I am not one of the partizan anti-LJAG people not at all, just think you have to see them as what they are - not a community council but a well meaning & fallible local pressure group.
> Curious to find out where they should have been more ruthless , do you mean re Higgs ?



No not Higgs.

I was in Brixton until kicked out and have knowledge of whats happening in Brixton. Why I have been comparing LJ and Brixton situation. 

I meant for example Brixton Green - whose leading lights are involved / have influence in Pop.

Brixton Green - who are comparable to LJAG- one aim is to get control of Somerleyton road land. They have been focused on this politically. Got to know all the right politicians and networked for that one objective. Criticism by the lower orders does not bother them. 

What I mean is that if LJAG focused on getting control of the Farm land and Platform without worrying themselves what others think they would be more effective as an organisation. If they took a more hard headed "entrepreneurial" approach as a couple of the leading lights of BG have taken to help out at Pop the leading lights of LJAG might find themselves with paid for jobs and more actual power in there area. 

Compared to Turner and Brixton Green LJAG are amateurs. This is not criticism of LJAG. Its my observation. Its why I do not feel comfortable at some of the ire directed at LJAG in LJ. 

I agree LJAG are well meaning but fallible pressure group. Its why they have come a cropper. 

Remember Cllr Rachel saying up at a LJ meeting that the Council needed to learn lessons from what happened at Grow Brixton now Pop. She understood that Pop is not universally liked. That it was not something that a lot of her constituents would get anything out of. 

Will the Council learn lessons from Pop? Or will we see up at LJ the same mistakes repeated? Promises of the benefit of to the local community which get watered down in the end.


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## Tricky Skills (Nov 1, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> Compared to Turner and Brixton Green, LJAG are amateurs.



Gosh, they must be really shit then.


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## Rushy (Nov 1, 2015)

It seems that I have been paying too much attention to the guff on this thread. I bought a pint from the Port Authority yesterday whilst my mate's daughter had her face painted and listened to scary stories. I handed over a fiver and went to walk off. "Mate. Don't forget your change." And the barman handed me £1.


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> No not Higgs.
> 
> 
> Brixton Green - who are comparable to LJAG- one aim is to get control of Somerleyton road land. They have been focused on this politically. Got to know all the right politicians and networked for that one objective. Criticism by the lower orders does not bother them.
> ...



Interesting. Me I have to admit I'm glad they (LJAG) are still worried to some extent about 'criticism by the lower orders' and are reticent at least about been seen to take 'a more hardheaded entrepreneurial approach'.
My impression up here in LJ at the moment is that a lot of LJAG's influence is due to them being a very appealing cut price alternative for the council to having to attempt any real widespread public consultation / engagement on any issue: 
The council is using LJAG as much as the other way round, in that they can sit and have a cup of tea and a cupcake with the leadership of LJAG and then tick the box that says 'the local community is on board', which is at least part of why there is so much resentment here from those not invited to the party?


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It seems that I have been paying too much attention to the guff on this thread. I bought a pint from the Port Authority yesterday whilst my mate's daughter had her face painted and listened to scary stories. I handed over a fiver and went to walk off. "Mate. Don't forget your change." And the barman handed me £1.



You must have missed the bars that charge a fiver for a glass of Prosecco, or 25 quid a bottle if you are that way inclined. That's more expensive than in Spitalfields, where bankers and lawyers on 500K salaries rub shoulders....


----------



## Rushy (Nov 1, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> You must have missed the bars that charge a fiver for a glass of Prosecco, or 25 quid a bottle if you are that way inclined. That's more expensive than in Spitalfields, where bankers and lawyers on 500K salaries rub shoulders....


Happy to bow to your experience of prosecco prices in Brixton and Spitalfields. I was buying a pint of Best. And very nice it was too.


----------



## bimble (Nov 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Happy to bow to your experience of prosecco prices in Brixton and Spitalfields. I was buying a pint of Best. And very nice it was too.


Only thing I've purchased so far at Pop is a portion of those japanese gyoza fried dumpling things, which were £4.50 for 6 and really very delicious. I don't know whether I should feel guilty and ashamed about them.


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## alcopop (Nov 1, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> You must have missed the bars that charge a fiver for a glass of Prosecco, or 25 quid a bottle if you are that way inclined. That's more expensive than in Spitalfields, where bankers and lawyers on 500K salaries rub shoulders....


This is interesting. There are a range of drinks with differing prices at Pop. Some are cheaper than others.


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## deadringer (Nov 1, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's so good of you to speak for"most people" when you have no mandate to.



Ok, quick straw poll of one- What's more important to you, the friends you are out with or what kind of container your pint is served in whilst your out with them?


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 1, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Ok, quick straw poll of one- What's more important to you, the friends you are out with or what kind of container your pint is served in whilst your out with them?



Neither. It's all about proper cutlery


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## bimble (Nov 1, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Neither. It's all about proper cutlery


Napkins & not serviettes right?


----------



## leanderman (Nov 1, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> You must have missed the bars that charge a fiver for a glass of Prosecco, or 25 quid a bottle if you are that way inclined. That's more expensive than in Spitalfields, where bankers and lawyers on 500K salaries rub shoulders....



£5 for a glass of fizz sounds reasonable. I'd go for the £4 pint though (more alcohol per £).


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 1, 2015)

bimble said:


> Napkins & not serviettes right?



Obviously


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Ok, quick straw poll of one- What's more important to you, the friends you are out with or what kind of container your pint is served in whilst your out with them?



Difficult to answer, as I'm mostly housebound.
Of course, as someone with (among other medical issues) peripheral neuropathy, a plastic "glass" would be just about the worst container you could serve me a drink in, as I have reduced sensitivity in my fingers, and can't tell how hard (or gently) I'm gripping said beer container.A dimple mug or a bottle can usually withstand my grip, but a plastic "glass" just crumples and spills my beer. 
In fact, I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone (except publicans and festie organisers) say anything good about plastics, and recall complaints from ale-heads that they "taint" the beer (not something I give much cred to myself, but my palate is perhaps a bit coarse).


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2015)

leanderman said:


> £5 for a glass of fizz sounds reasonable. I'd go for the £4 pint though (more alcohol per £).



£5 for a glass from a bottle that costs a fiver at trade prices. Gotta love wine mark-ups!


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2015)

bimble said:


> Only thing I've purchased so far at Pop is a portion of those japanese gyoza fried dumpling things, which were £4.50 for 6 and really very delicious. I don't know whether I should feel guilty and ashamed about them.



After eating any sort of fried dumpling, the only thing you're allowed to feel is mildly dyspeptic.


----------



## T & P (Nov 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> It seems that I have been paying too much attention to the guff on this thread. I bought a pint from the Port Authority yesterday whilst my mate's daughter had her face painted and listened to scary stories. I handed over a fiver and went to walk off. "Mate. Don't forget your change." And the barman handed me £1.


Oh so you can in fact buy pints of beer for £4 at Pop? I hope this puts to the bed the affordability and exclusivity argument once and for all.


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## Rushy (Nov 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> Oh so you can in fact buy pints of beer for £4 at Pop? I hope this puts to the bed the affordability and exclusivity argument once and for all.


Don't go getting too carried away. It's still 8 pence more expensive than the average price of a pint over the past 12 months.


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## bimble (Nov 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Don't go getting too carried away. It's still 8 pence more expensive than the average price of a pint over the past 12 months.



Expensive rent for a shipping container though. You'd need that extra 8p.


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## leanderman (Nov 1, 2015)

bimble said:


> Expensive rent for a shipping container though. You'd need that extra 8p.



Exactly. At those rents, I'd be surprised if they make much money.


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## Winot (Nov 1, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Don't go getting too carried away. It's still 8 pence more expensive than the average price of a pint over the past 12 months.



How flexible was the drinking vessel?


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## alcopop (Nov 1, 2015)

T & P said:


> Oh so you can in fact buy pints of beer for £4 at Pop? I hope this puts to the bed the affordability and exclusivity argument once and for all.



I would be amazed if it did.


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## deadringer (Nov 2, 2015)

Popped in yesterday early evening with the girlfriend for the first time, she'd not been and wanted to try out a few small dishes.
Couldnt find the £4 pint, but I did enjoy a few £4.15 pints from the Wurst place. She was very happy with the size of her mulled wine for £5, no idea if it's good value as its not really my thing, she seemed to think so.
The 'security', if you can call them that, looked extremely bored, not one person had their bag searched, and several people walked in clutching their own coffee cups unchallenged. By the time we left they were huddled in an office as it was so cold! I think it's not going to be much fun now winter is setting in.


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## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

There are ways to heat it if they are willing to invest. The streets of Paris still have an outdoor nightlife throughout winter.


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## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The 'security', if you can call them that, looked extremely bored, not one person had their bag searched, and several people walked in clutching their own coffee cups unchallenged.


See how you get on bringing in a load of cans.


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## elmpp (Nov 2, 2015)

editor said:


> See how you get on bringing in a load of cans.


Will try at next Offline also for parity


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## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Will try at next Offline also for parity


Offline makes no claim to be a green oasis and an open space for the community, you silly, silly boy. It's a DJ night in a pub/club.


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## elmpp (Nov 2, 2015)

Yet the green oasis serves the cheaper pint


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## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Yet the green oasis serves the cheaper pint


£3.30? Nope. Now be quiet.


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## elmpp (Nov 2, 2015)

Market house does not serve a pint at £3.30


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## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Market house does not serve a pint at £3.30


£3.50 for a pint of Amstel on my nights, not that there is any comparison between drinking in the cold from a plastic glass and being in an _actual club_ with a massive sound system, seats, sofas, lighting, warmth, proper glasses, etc and a licence until 4am. Good luck trying to get a drink at Pop at that time. 

Next.


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## snowy_again (Nov 2, 2015)

aside/ Do they do glass pints upstairs at Market House now?


----------



## deadringer (Nov 2, 2015)

Oh that reminds me, I DID see glasses at Pop yesterday! There were people sitting in the NZ  wine store drinking from glasses, and there were some glasses behind the bar at the Wurst place. I'm only guessing here but I imagine if you sit at the place you could have your beverage in a glass if that's what floats your boat, and a squishy plastic cup if you want to have a wander about.


----------



## T & P (Nov 2, 2015)

I can testify that Pop Brixton is a really, really shit amusement park. It has zero rollercoasters. Thorpe Park is so much better.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 2, 2015)

Pop not open until 4 am shocker.

Luckily you don't have to pay £5 to get in to Pop after 10pm as you do at Offline. Split the entry cost over four pints and it's £4.75 a pint. If your budget can only stretch to three pints, that's £5.17/pint. Often in a plastic glass.

Incidentally, it might be a good idea to update the Offline homepage. Still says Offline is a FREE club night.

When you click through to an event night, it says Offline starts at 10. And then clarifies that it is only free before 10. i.e.  you have to be in the club before the club night begins.

Isn't that a little misleading?


----------



## deadringer (Nov 2, 2015)

editor said:


> See how you get on bringing in a load of cans.



It's not the kind of place I fancy staying long enough to warrant taking in my own booze, but I'd say it is definitely an option if someone did fancy it.


----------



## trabuquera (Nov 2, 2015)

Not sure if this has been raised before but Pop is also - apparently - a dog-free zone: me, a friend and a (very small, obedient, completely silent) Jack Russell all got asked to leave on Sunday because "no dogs allowed". (We were just walking around trying to decide whether to buy anything to eat or drink before the decision was made for us, not howling at the moon, chasing rats or biting any other customers' ankles or anything.). So my attitude to the place is swinging backwards on the "live and let live" to "die yuppie scum" scale.

It's also looking and feeling more and more like a cheap cutdown Camden Lock with every passing week.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> aside/ Do they do glass pints upstairs at Market House now?



They do til they run out. Then revert to thick polypropolyne ones.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

trabuquera said:


> Not sure if this has been raised before but Pop is also - apparently - a dog-free zone: me, a friend and a (very small, obedient, completely silent) Jack Russell all got asked to leave on Sunday because "no dogs allowed". (We were just walking around trying to decide whether to buy anything to eat or drink before the decision was made for us, not howling at the moon, chasing rats or biting any other customers' ankles or anything.). So my attitude to the place is swinging backwards on the "live and let live" to "die yuppie scum" scale.


Yep. It's a rum kind of "community hub" and green oasis where you face the prospect of having the contents of your bag searched by security guards and where there's signs banning you from bringing in your own food and booze.


trabuquera said:


> It's also looking and feeling more and more like a cheap cutdown Camden Lock with every passing week.


That's pretty much it.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Oh that reminds me, I DID see glasses at Pop yesterday! There were people sitting in the NZ  wine store drinking from glasses, and there were some glasses behind the bar at the Wurst place. I'm only guessing here but I imagine if you sit at the place you could have your beverage in a glass if that's what floats your boat, and a squishy plastic cup if you want to have a wander about.


I didn't want to "wander about" with my £5 pint of overpriced average ale in a plastic cup but had no choice as there was no seats.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

Not entirely sure why my club keeps getting brought up here - well, that's not true as it's clearly the same petty twats pursuing the same thread-trashing poisonous personal agenda - but if anyone wants to go to the Market House shows for free, they only have to drop me a message and they'll be on the guest list. All my shows at other venues will remain free, like the 200+ free shows in the past. Please take any further discussion about Offline club nights to an appropriate thread because it has absolutely fuck all to do with Pop fucking Brixton. Thanks awfully.


----------



## deadringer (Nov 2, 2015)

editor said:


> I didn't want to "wander about" with my £5 pint of overpriced average ale in a plastic cup but had no choice as there was no seats.



Well they do say bad things come in threes!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

Market House entry after 10pm is free to anyone on the guest list and guest is open to anyone who pre-requests to be on it up to around 5pm on the day of any event.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 2, 2015)

editor said:


> Not entirely sure why my club keeps getting brought up here - well, that's not true as it's clearly the same petty twats pursuing the same thread-trashing poisonous personal agenda - but if anyone wants to go to the Market House shows for free, they only have to drop me a message and they'll be on the guest list. All my shows at other venues will remain free, like the 200+ free shows in the past. Please take any further discussion about Offline club nights to an appropriate thread because it has absolutely fuck all to do with Pop fucking Brixton. Thanks awfully.


Sorry. You raised the price of your events as an example of cheap pints so I thought you would be comfortable with the scrutiny. There is no mention of guest list on the Offline page. You have to be "in the know", plan in advance and know everyone who is coming with you. Luckily, you can drop into Pop without planning ahead whenever it is open, and not be charged a don't know the right people/spontaneity tax.

Anyway, well say no more about it as it seems to be a green light for the usual tedious personal abuse.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Market House entry after 10pm is free to anyone on the guest list and guest is open to anyone who pre-requests to be on it up to around 5pm on the day of any event.


Indeed. And, as I said last month on this very site:


editor said:


> If anyone here wants to be on the free guestlist, drop me a PM and I'll sort it


----------



## T & P (Nov 2, 2015)

Public Notice

The price of a pint of beer in Pop Brixton starts at *£4.00*


How many more times is it going to take?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

T & P said:


> Public Notice
> 
> The price of a pint of beer in Pop Brixton starts at *£4.00*
> 
> ...



Why not stop being a wind up? And a dick?


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 2, 2015)

Fundraiser for Brixton Cycles


----------



## T & P (Nov 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Why not stop being a wind up? And a dick?


Not wind-up and a dick at all. There has been an extremely long and rather tiresome discussion on this thread about the alleged exclusivity and expensive prices of beer available at Pop. Indeed, it has been one of the main arguments against it some posters have presented time and again. But it turns out beer is in fact available at pretty affordable prices at Pop Brixton.

I can understand if those posters were not aware at first and thought the prices they saw were standard for all the different traders within Pop. But we have cleared up that is not the case, and that affordable beer in in line with the overwhelming majority of venues in Brixton is in fact available at Pop. So why do some posters insist on making inaccurate claims about the price of beer? Have not they seen the many clarifications on the issue on the very thread they keep posting their statements? Or are they doing it out of spite?

So instead of resorting to personal insults for having the temerity to correct an erroneous claim, perhaps you should ask the person(s) making those claims if they have realised they are wrong on the issue. Unless of course you think that incorrect claims should be left unchallenged, even when they're being made again and again and again.

It could be that due to the continuing forced ignore I have been subjected to by the poster in question, he has not seen the numerous posts pointing out to the correct price of a pint of beer at Pop. But then again, he has liked your lovely post above, so I can only imagine he's been reading my posts alright after all.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 2, 2015)

deadringer said:


> The 'security', if you can call them that, looked extremely bored, not one person had their bag searched, and several people walked in clutching their own coffee cups unchallenged.


Maybe the security are there for security purposes.
I've never had my thermos confiscated at the Proms, yet there are signs at every door of the Royal Albert Hall forbidding bringing in your own refreshments. Security sometimes search your bag sometimes not. Pop Brixton may have the same approach.


----------



## Maharani (Nov 2, 2015)

This thread is beyond boring now.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

T & P said:


> Not wind-up and a dick at all. There has been an extremely long and rather tiresome discussion on this thread about the alleged exclusivity and expensive prices of beer available at Pop. Indeed, it has been one of the main arguments against it some posters have presented time and again. But it turns out beer is in fact available at pretty affordable prices at Pop Brixton.
> 
> I can understand if those posters were not aware at first and thought the prices they saw were standard for all the different traders within Pop. But we have cleared up that is not the case, and that affordable beer in in line with the overwhelming majority of venues in Brixton is in fact available at Pop. So why do some posters insist on making inaccurate claims about the price of beer? Have not they seen the many clarifications on the issue on the very thread they keep posting their statements? Or are they doing it out of spite?
> 
> ...



Get over yourself.

Affordability is still subject to what people CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD....

It's not for you, or anyone else to decide what is affordable....so get a grip and stop adding to this thread being a fucking beef festival.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

Maharani said:


> This thread is beyond boring now.



It's like squeezing the very last drops of ego oil from derelict testicles


----------



## deadringer (Nov 2, 2015)

Maharani said:


> This thread is beyond boring now.



But yet people still can't help themselves posting on it!


----------



## deadringer (Nov 2, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Maybe the security are there for security purposes.
> I've never had my thermos confiscated at the Proms, yet there are signs at every door of the Royal Albert Hall forbidding bringing in your own refreshments. Security sometimes search your bag sometimes not. Pop Brixton may have the same approach.



This is pretty much it. Like most venues, they reserve the right to search you. In reality, they probably won't. However, for those with a pathological hatred of Pop, we are led to believe that every bag, pocket and coat were subject to airport style X-ray, pat down and forensic examination, when in reality it is no different to any other venue in and around town.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

deadringer said:


> However, for those with a pathological hatred of Pop, we are led to believe that every bag, pocket and coat were subject to airport style X-ray, pat down and forensic examination, when in reality it is no different to any other venue in and around town.



More beef laced bullshit.

There's not a single post on here to say time spent at Pop is anything more than average. There's many saying it's not much cop, and a some saying it's just shit.

So where is the 'pathological hatred of Pop'?

It's just does not exist on this thread.

There is some obsessions over pricing, but that seems to be avid amongst people who sorta like Pop and those who sorta dislike pop.

Like Pop, much of the argument is bland and uninspiring.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

This thread needs putting out of it's misery and locking. It's turned into a role playing fantasy knitting circle.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 2, 2015)




----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 2, 2015)

Someone say hyperbole again...


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2015)

I popped in to Pop on my home today. T'was as empty and bleak as that East 17 comeback gig. In fact, I'm not sure if there were any customers at all. 

#justsayin


----------



## T & P (Nov 2, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Get over yourself.
> 
> Affordability is still subject to what people CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD....
> 
> *It's not for you, or anyone else to decide what is affordable*....so get a grip and stop adding to this thread being a fucking beef festival.


Not for me or anyone else, unless that anyone else is a certain someone, apparently.

Interesting that you have nothing to say about the issue of making wrong claims about the actual cost of beer at Pop, which was the ONLY point I was making in the post you found so objectionable. I guess some people should be at liberty to make erroneous statements and not be challenged about them in your view... No need to reply btw.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

T & P said:


> Not for me or anyone else, unless that anyone else is a certain someone, apparently.
> 
> *Interesting *that you have nothing to say about the issue of making wrong claims about the actual cost of beer at Pop, which was the ONLY point I was making in the post you found so objectionable. I guess some people should be at liberty to make erroneous statements and not be challenged about them in your view... No need to reply btw.



It really isn't. It'dull.

If you have an issue with something one person said then address it directly with them and stop beating around the bush with all your 'certain someone' bullshit. It's not my job to question or challenge the bug up your arse. I don't give a shit about the price of a pint of piss at pop, and I've no interest in how it compares to the beehive...the albert or Market House or some shithole in Holborn.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> If you have an issue with something one person said then address it directly with them



FYI a number of us are banned from doing so.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It's not my job to question or challenge the bug up your arse.


Agreed. Let at least one of your personalities take a well earned break.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Agreed. Let at least one of your personalities take a well earned break.



Go fuck yourself.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> FYI a number of us are banned from doing so.



So, the person you want to address can not see what you are saying, but you say it anyway for the rest of us to see?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So, the person you want to address can not see what you are saying, but you say it anyway for the rest of us to see?


I was providing you with a straightforward explanation for why T&P used the term "certain someone" which you took objection to.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I was providing you with a straightforward explanation for why T&P used the term "certain someone" which you took objection to.



Why not just say the person's user name?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Why not just say the person's user name?


Because a number of us are banned from doing so. How many times do you need it explained?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Because a number of us are banned from doing so. How many times do you need it explained?



You can't physically type the words?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> You can't physically type the words?


We have been told that if we mention the certain poster or reply to anything they have said, we will be banned. I was banned a few weeks ago for doing this. Bonkers, isn't it?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> We have been told that if we mention the certain poster or reply to anything they have said, we will be banned. I was banned a few weeks ago for doing this. Bonkers, isn't it?



yes. It is a bit.

There are clearly differing experiences of the cheapest pint at pop. People can drink for £4+ a pint.

The affordability of that will differ from person to person.

That is that.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> People can drink for £4+ a pint.



Which is all that T&P said. Stop being a wind-up and a dick, etc etc.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Which is all that T&P said. Stop being a wind-up and a dick, etc etc.



...and around it goes...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

In pop related news


'The complex _(POP)_ is proving very popular and M&M and Carl Turner Architects have recently just provided two containers for an exhibition at the Building exhibition centre in London.

These 2 containers have been adapted to be used as living accommodation.'

Pop Brixton - M&M Architectural Limited

I'd be quite interested to see what they've done to make it a desirable living space, but not sure I'd want to live in one.


----------



## Dan U (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> In pop related news
> 
> 
> 'The complex _(POP)_ is proving very popular and M&M and Carl Turner Architects have recently just provided two containers for an exhibition at the Building exhibition centre in London.
> ...


There are a load of containers at trinity buoy wharf that are lived in. 

Some in Bermondsey as well you can see from the railway line near London Bridge 

They'd have to be well insulated is all I can think really. Either be roasting hot or freezing cold.


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> In pop related news
> 
> 
> 'The complex _(POP)_ is proving very popular and M&M and Carl Turner Architects have recently just provided two containers for an exhibition at the Building exhibition centre in London.
> ...


Pop Brixton is proving a nice little earner all round for Carl Turner Architects. Quids in and double G&Ts all round!


----------



## Rushy (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> In pop related news
> 
> 
> 'The complex _(POP)_ is proving very popular and M&M and Carl Turner Architects have recently just provided two containers for an exhibition at the Building exhibition centre in London.
> ...


CT did a talk on this at that site. It was part of a general discussion with other architects and builders about moving the building process away from the building site and into factories. My take home, which I don't think was the intended one, was that the main thing in favour of containers is that people understand them and can visualise then. They are a first step into a new type of pre fab and modular which, once up and running, will probably be cheaper and much higher quality. With more human dimensions.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 3, 2015)

Rushy said:


> CT did a talk on this at that site. It was part of a general discussion with other architects and builders about moving the building process away from the building site and into factories. My take home, which I don't think was the intended one, was that the main thing in favour of containers is that people understand them and can visualise then. They are a first step into a new type of pre fab and modular which, once up and running, will probably be cheaper and much higher quality. With more human dimensions.


Mad Marchitectural if you ask me.

Its bad enough people expecting you to be entertained by surplus shipping containers - but living in them?

This is clearly a plot by the Illuminati to corner the market in shipping containers thereby imposing world government and reducing human beings to rabbits in hutches.


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2015)

CH1 said:


> Mad Marchitectural if you ask me.
> 
> Its bad enough people expecting you to be entertained by surplus shipping containers - but living in them?
> 
> This is clearly a plot by the Illuminati to corner the market in shipping containers thereby imposing world government and reducing human beings to rabbits in hutches.


I do believe Genesis covered that scenario in their Foxtrot album.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 3, 2015)

editor said:


> I do believe Genesis covered that scenario in their Foxtrot album.


I must investigate.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

editor said:


> I do believe Genesis covered that scenario in their Foxtrot album.



"I hear the directors of Genetic Control have been buying all the
properties that have recently been sold, taking risks oh so bold.
It's said now that people will be shorter in height,
they can fit twice as many in the same building site.
(they say it's alright),
Beginning with the tenants of the town of Harlow,
in the interest of humanity, they've been told they must go,
told they must go-go-go-go."


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> "I hear the directors of Genetic Control have been buying all the
> properties that have recently been sold, taking risks oh so bold.
> It's said now that people will be shorter in height,
> they can fit twice as many in the same building site.
> ...


Even the lyrics before that seem spot on for what's been happening around Brixton recently:



> JOHN PEBBLE OF STYX ENTERPRISES
> "Get'em out by Friday!
> You don't get paid till the last one's well on his way.
> Get'em out by Friday!
> ...


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

Thank god Suppers Ready wasn't about housing issues.....the lyrics would take up two pages


----------



## editor (Nov 3, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Thank god Suppers Ready wasn't about housing issues.....the lyrics would take up two pages


I'll say it quietly...

I quite like the album


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 3, 2015)

editor said:


> I'll say it quietly...
> 
> I quite like the album



It has a certain charm....


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 3, 2015)

Did anyone see this cool charity at Pop? Was apparently there in mid October for a short-term residency.







It's a Stockwell based charity called "Buy Rice Back" which employs tailors in Chennai to upcycle rice bags.

The sale of each tote bag (£10) raises the equivalent amount of funds to provide kids at an Indian charity with meals.



> “We’re so exciting to be included in this blossoming community that Pop Brixton is fostering and everyday we have people stop by to find out what our wild and whacky designs are all about,” says Schreurs.
> 
> “It’s incredibly humbling to see the generosity of customers and their enthusiasm behind our project and the products.”



www.buyriceback.org

Sorry I missed it. Much better 'bag for life' than the fucking Disney one Tesco lumbered me with.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 3, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Did anyone see this cool charity at Pop? Was apparently there in mid October for a short-term residency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But it still doesn't have a massive fork and spade at the entrance


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 3, 2015)

Good point. None of that really addresses the key issue of the fork and spade


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> But it still doesn't have a massive fork and spade at the entrance


Maybe a crowdfunding appeal could remedy this?


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Did anyone see this cool charity at Pop? Was apparently there in mid October for a short-term residency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They could be throwing people out of work as well
Jute Mills in India
Manufactures and Exporters of Jute Bags


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Did anyone see this cool charity at Pop? Was apparently there in mid October for a short-term residency.
> 
> It's a Stockwell based charity called "Buy Rice Back" which employs tailors in Chennai to upcycle rice bags.
> 
> ...



Buy Back Rice are not a charity. An ethically minded business possibly, but not a charity.


----------



## Belushi (Nov 4, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Buy Back Rice are not a charity. An ethically minded business possibly, but not a charity.



Yes, their website is unclear on their status but doesn't display a charity commission registration number which is de rigueur for British charities


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 4, 2015)

Furthermore, for a Stockwell based 'charity', this is their mailing address: Buy Rice Back														 Heerderweg 66224 LE Maastricht The Netherlands.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 4, 2015)

Cos they're a registered in Maastricht: in the UK they appear to be a social enterprise which sells the bags and passes the profit to two charities / NGOs; the My Name Is Kumar Foundation and the Indian based NGO the Care Foundation.  The same selling of bags for donations happens in various locations around Europe. 

Hub Spotlight: My Name is Kumar - Islington 
About us


----------



## Winot (Nov 4, 2015)

Bastards


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Cos they're a registered in Maastricht: in the UK they appear to be a social enterprise which sells the bags and passes the profit to two charities / NGOs; the My Name Is Kumar Foundation and the Indian based NGO the Care Foundation.  The same selling of bags for donations happens in various locations around Europe.
> 
> Hub Spotlight: My Name is Kumar - Islington
> About us


I see the co-founder also sells "original travel experiences"

And they are in the Islington Impact Hub.

It's all a bit trendy for me. But not for Pop Brixton.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

Winot said:


> Bastards


I've just taken delivery of two books on Manichaeanism - so watch it!


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 4, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I see the co-founder also sells "original travel experiences"
> 
> And they are in the Islington Impact Hub.
> 
> It's all a bit trendy for me. But not for Pop Brixton.



Why? That impact hub is just a set of managed offices for charities / SE's / not for profits - offering cheap desk space for organisations with low incomes or overheads. 

If that's trendy, does that mean you and Ed don't like things like Community Action Network's Mezzanine CAN Mezzanine, Loman Street - CAN which host The Carers Trust, helped set up TimeBank, unLTD, Lord Young's School for Social Entrepreneurs and lots of others: CAN - Organisations who live here 

As that's exactly the same 'shared space, shared costs, sharing of ideas' approach for basic, long established community development principles.


----------



## T & P (Nov 4, 2015)

Winot said:


> Bastards


I'm sure the founders must have at some point left a toilet unflushed after taking a shit, or given less than a 10% tip at a restaurant. I know! Let's all find their twitter and FB profiles and see what dirt we can dig out...


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 4, 2015)

The Fork and Spade conundrum can easily be solved by having another Saturday afternoon kiddies workshop, £22 adult tickets, £15 children, winner gets to have their entry in pride of place at the entrance to Pop.*

*materials (Timber, chicken wire, old newspaper, plaster of paris, and weather proof paint) to be provided by entrants.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Why? That impact hub is just a set of managed offices for charities / SE's / not for profits - offering cheap desk space for organisations with low incomes or overheads.
> 
> If that's trendy, does that mean you and Ed don't like things like Community Action Network's Mezzanine CAN Mezzanine, Loman Street - CAN which host The Carers Trust, helped set up TimeBank, unLTD, Lord Young's School for Social Entrepreneurs and lots of others: CAN - Organisations who live here
> 
> As that's exactly the same 'shared space, shared costs, sharing of ideas' approach for basic, long established community development principles.


I did work at 336 Brixton Road for 20 years - before it rebranded as "We are 336" though.
If you're so keen on local self help co-operative social firms why don't you help them get the £2.5 million to renovate their building?

Or perhaps a 1960s commercial building given to disabled charities in Lambeth by Nat West isn't good enough.

Nowadays people only want new things - not to maintain what they already have.

The building looks as though its seen better days. Close it down and open a new one like.

And by the way how accessible to disabled people is POP Brixton??????????


----------



## Rushy (Nov 4, 2015)

Anyone saying this thread is boring just isn't reading it properly.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 4, 2015)

CH1 said:


> I did work at 336 Brixton Road for 20 years - before it rebranded as "We are 336" though.
> If you're so keen on local self help co-operative social firms why don't you help them get the £2.5 million to renovate the building?
> 
> Or perhaps a 1960s commercial building given to disabled charities in Lambeth by Nat West isn't good enough.
> ...



So you'll fully understand the principles of community development then?

You're 'if you're so keen' line is a little beneath your usual high quality of posting; you don't know me or my background. But I have fundraised for various community capacity building projects across London & the UK; raised £5m for Brixton direct service delivery charities back when I worked in Brixton. I've worked in 336 Brixton Road, I've worked for many DPULOs.

I agree the sector has an ongoing fascination with the 'new' - but that's ultimately the fault of funders - you'll know how hard it is to get core funding vs. time limited project funding, or funding for a 'new' approach. Besides, CAN is hardly new - Adele's been running that for at least 15 years.

I don't know much about the £2.5m capital project for 336 - although it seems high, but inevitable for that age of concrete building. Surely the question is - is that £2.5m the right investment? What does the options appraisal say?

As for Pop Accessibility - I can't say I know. Probably just scrapes through DDA requirements for access to ground floor stuff; probably falls way below expected standards for wider access / communications / other issues. The 'meanwhile' use probably allows them to try to sidestep some of the minimum requirements - but I agree its something that needs to be addressed.


----------



## alcopop (Nov 4, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Anyone saying this thread is boring just isn't reading it properly.


I think it's hilarious


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> I don't know much about the £2.5m capital project for 336 - although it seems high, but inevitable for that age of concrete building. Surely the question is - is that £2.5m the right investment? What does the options appraisal say?


Glad to hear what I'm not quoting back - though I don't think POP is actually accessible. Probably you would need bouncer assistance to get in. And as you say be confined to the ground floor.

Regarding 336 renovation - I don't know and haven't asked, but this scheme was being keenly worked on in 2008/9 and now all is quiet. Nothing on website as far as I can see.

I'm of the opinion that Lambeth Regeneration may have suggested they need a regeneration partner who would provide a 20 storey tower below which would be meeting rooms and offices for the disabled people's organisations.

The sticking point would then be- where would DASL, CSN, Lambeth & Southwark MIND, AGE UK, Parents for Inclusion etc etc go whilst all this work was being done.

I could give you a suggestion - Phoenix House to use up the fag end of Lambeth's lease possibly.

Meanwhile it is odd that Lambeth was setting up places like Lambeth Accord back in the 1980s - but now concentrate on entertainment and business.
POP is hedonism on the rates. I say it again.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 4, 2015)

alcopop said:


> I think it's hilarious


Says a lot about you


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> As for Pop Accessibility - I can't say I know. Probably just scrapes through DDA requirements for access to ground floor stuff; probably falls way below expected standards for wider access / communications / other issues. The 'meanwhile' use probably allows them to try to sidestep some of the minimum requirements - but I agree its something that needs to be addressed.


I can't think of any reason why a newly built 'community hub' shouldn't be fully accessible to all of the community. I would have thought it was a legal requirement, unless the need of the Grazers, Hipsters, Boozers and Multinational Takeovers outweigh the needs of the few with accessibility needs.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

CH1 said:


> And by the way how accessible to disabled people is POP Brixton???????



It has a massive wheelchair ramp linking ground and first floor


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

CH1 said:


> POP is hedonism on the rates. I say it again.


Yep. Go by on some weekends and it's barely any different from a megapub with a soundsystem.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It has a massive wheelchair ramp linking ground and first floor


You are right there. I have an idea it does not access all areas though. Must check before foot in mouth.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> It has a massive wheelchair ramp linking ground and first floor


It has a massive step up from pavement into it.

Actually there is a ramp behind the planter, so it would appear it does have access.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

lol


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> lol


That is a political statement. As is the idea that a disabled person should require to ask for assistance to get into the bloody place.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 4, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> It has a massive step up from pavement into it.


And the classic 'wheelchair users enter via a different door' thing - from the last time I went there with someone in a powerchair.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 4, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Pop is fully accessible for wheel chair users.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> And the classic 'wheelchair users enter via a different door' thing - from the last time I went there with someone in a powerchair.


Yep, you'r right, it does have access, and I've amended my post.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 4, 2015)

Not sure about getting up to Donostia Social club. Is there wheelchair access for that?


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 4, 2015)

editor said:


> I can't think of any reason why a newly built 'community hub' shouldn't be fully accessible to all of the community. I would have thought it was a legal requirement, unless the need of the Grazers, Hipsters, Boozers and Multinational Takeovers outweigh the needs of the few with accessibility needs.



Cos you have clearly little understanding of planning law, nor the DDA; but can't resist a dig at your usual favourite bete noirs even when pointed out it probably is as accessible as many other venues (private and public). 

However I do love the fact that everyone's now suddenly interested in access issues!


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Cos you have clearly little understanding of planning law, nor the DDA; but can't resist a dig at your usual favourite bete noirs even when pointed out it probably is as accessible as many other venues (private and public).
> 
> However I do love the fact that everyone's now suddenly interested in access issues!


They should always be considered.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Cos you have clearly little understanding of planning law, nor the DDA; but can't resist a dig at your usual favourite bete noirs even when pointed out it probably is as accessible as many other venues (private and public).


Given that it's a Lambeth council driven project and has been sold to the community as something that is supposedly for all of them, then why shouldn't accessibility be a matter of interest?


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 4, 2015)

Of course!

But you know they don't; just tickled that it's now being used as a stick to beat a not very interesting temporary commercial events and community space when the topic is never assimilated as a minimum standard of expectation elsewhere. 

Spent some time yesterday with a v famous London building trying to explain that installing a ramp doesn't mean they've addressed 'accessibility'.


----------



## Ol Nick (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Cos you have clearly little understanding of planning law, nor the DDA; but can't resist a dig at your usual favourite bete noirs even when pointed out it probably is as accessible as many other venues (private and public).
> 
> However I do love the fact that everyone's now suddenly interested in access issues!


"Betes noires"


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 4, 2015)

editor said:


> Given that it's a Lambeth council driven project and has been sold to the community as something that is supposedly for all of them, then why shouldn't accessibility be a matter of interest?



You're misinterpreting - they have a legal obligation; to which they _appear _to be complying in terms of physical access and facilities (loos etc.) but there's more to accessibility than just the physical premises. 

I'll leave you to contact them to ask about physical access: Pop Brixton


----------



## Winot (Nov 4, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> "Betes noires"



Tell the bêtes noires to watch out for the bugbear.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> "Betes noires"



You're not allowed to use quotation marks if it's not a direct quote.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 4, 2015)

Accessibility is piss poor for a new build. Narrow walkways where one has to squeeze past drinkers who can't find anywhere to sit, the place is a joke!


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 4, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Accessibility is piss poor for a new build. Narrow walkways where one has to squeeze past drinkers who can't find anywhere to sit, the place is a joke!


And the beers a bit bloody pricey...


----------



## Rushy (Nov 4, 2015)

And... (something about the price of eggplant).


----------



## elmpp (Nov 4, 2015)

editor said:


> Given that it's a Lambeth council driven project and has been sold to the community as something that is supposedly for all of them, then why shouldn't accessibility be a matter of interest?


Another stab at criticism falls flat. 

Are you really this close minded?


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Another stab at criticism falls flat.
> 
> Are you really this close minded?


Please keep your obsessive and disruptive hatred to yourself.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2015)

Rushy said:


> And... (something about the price of eggplant).


Reported to Americanism Watch.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 4, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Another stab at criticism falls flat.


It often does with you.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 4, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Reported to Americanism Watch.


I'm afraid that's what it's called where I come from too. When you permanently translate Teuchter into proper English, I'll consider changing my ways.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Not sure about getting up to Donostia Social club. Is there wheelchair access for that?


I don't think so. In this regard it is similar to any other Brixton venue where events are held entirely in upstairs areas, thereby excluding a portion of the local community.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2015)

(That's not necessarily an excuse for it to be ok at Pop Brixton though)


----------



## alcopop (Nov 4, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I don't think so. In this regard it is similar to any other Brixton venue where events are held entirely in upstairs areas, thereby excluding a portion of the local community.



I'm sure that any community minded promoter would not indulge in such exclusionary behaviour


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 4, 2015)

teuchter said:


> (That's not necessarily an excuse for it to be ok at Pop Brixton though)



Not an excuse for a new build. Especially when they have made the effort throughout the rest of the site.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

alcopop said:


> I'm sure that any community minded promoter would not indulge in such exclusionary behaviour


How incredibly fucking tiresome. A little snarky dig from an anonymous, cowardly poster hiding behind their anonymous identity. Where I play gigs has got absolutely fuck all to do with the accessibility (or lack of) a Lambeth-driven, self declared 'green oasis' and community hub designed to host events for all the community.

Now shuffle back to your corner, safe in the knowledge that where you work and your personal business won't be subjected to the same scrutiny you're trying to hold mine up to.

Oh, and for the record, something like 96% of the events I've put on have been held in accessible venues and they've never, ever been declared or billed as events for all the community of all ages. How about you? Oh wait, I forgot. You're a _hider_.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 4, 2015)

alcopop said:


> I'm sure that any community minded promoter would not indulge in such exclusionary behaviour


Why do you hate editor so much?


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

Feels like a new low for the thread; Pop gets a bashing for being only 95% wheelchair accessible and a company specifically designed to help the poor in India doesn't get a straightforward pat on the back


----------



## ddraig (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Feels like a new low for the thread; Pop gets a bashing for being only 95% wheelchair accessible and a company specifically designed to help the poor in India doesn't get a straightforward pat on the back


No, you and your mob keep dragging the lows lower and find it funny.
Pretty pathetic


----------



## deadringer (Nov 4, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh, and for the record, something like 96% of the events I've put on have been held in accessible venues and they've never, ever been declared or billed as events for all the community of all ages.



So events for like minded people then...


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

deadringer said:


> So events for like minded people then...


Here's a thought: why not just fuck off with your petty, stupid and irrelevant little snide comments? My club nights in Brixton have *nothing to do with Pop Brixton*. And they don't cost thirty five fucking quid either.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

What's Offline?


----------



## Angellic (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What's Offline?



With any luck, this thread.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

Angellic said:


> With any luck, this thread.


And some of the fucking idiots doing their best to trash it.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 4, 2015)

Why are we comparing £5 entry to a dj pub with a £35 six course meal?


----------



## Maharani (Nov 4, 2015)

Why are we going round in circles?


----------



## Belushi (Nov 4, 2015)

This thread should have a Christmas meet up at pop :thumbs :


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Why are we comparing £5 entry to a dj pub with a £35 six course meal?



That would be silly

You'd be better comparing it to the £5.50 event on Saturday at Pop.

It's also worth remembering this event at Pop is fully wheelchair accessible. Maybe that's what the extra 50p goes towards funding.


----------



## Maharani (Nov 4, 2015)

Belushi said:


> This thread should have a Christmas meet up at pop :thumbs :


Now that would end well!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Now that would end well!


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Why are we going round in circles?


I think the question is: why is my club night being brought up here? It has nothing to do with Pop Brixton whatsoever.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2015)

Let's move away from this contentious issue and refocus on attempts to get the community the oversized spade and fork they were promised.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


>



More like this


----------



## T & P (Nov 4, 2015)

Belushi said:


> This thread should have a Christmas meet up at pop :thumbs :


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

Well if it's bone fide charities you want, here's one....






Bounce Back is a new tenant at Pop. The charity is focussed on training and development of ex offenders. They offer training, work experience and employment to offenders at the end of their sentences using the skills developed both in custody and on release.

Most of their work starts pre-release, in their training centre at HMP Brixton, teaching painting and decorating and dry lining; real life vocational skills that are transferable and in demand on the outside. On release from prison, some are offered a job in the social enterprise, which runs a number of successful construction, refurbishment and painting and decorating services across London. Others are supported into jobs with other large organisations in the construction industry.

This is all responding to a need – according to CITB Construction Skills Network forecast, the UK will need 13,000 painters and decorators by 2018. Skilling these lads up in an industry that has a skills shortage enhances their position as an asset to society, and gives a real chance of reintegration and desistance from crime.

Their spot at Pop will allow them to offer employability support, CV writing, CSCS card advice (so people can work on site) and other skills which will make a huge difference in the community.

They ran a volunteers day with
Uncommon Garden Landscaping hosting the first session, which involved building wire sculptures around the plants in the greenhouse - part sculpture, part protection. Following this they held a foraging session, collecting peppers, aubergine, tomatoes etc for lunch.

Who knew there'd be actual gardening stuff at Pop?


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Feels like a new low for the thread; Pop gets a bashing for being only 95% wheelchair accessible and a company specifically designed to help the poor in India doesn't get a straightforward pat on the back


I am quite suspicious of companies doing good works. They are currently investigating a very large one in Kenbury Street.
http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/disclosure_2012/october_2012/2012090002986.pdf


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## Nanker Phelge (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> More like this



Speak for yourself.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 4, 2015)

Concerned that investors have missed this vital news

When will POP Brixton be listing?


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> .......they held a foraging session, collecting peppers, aubergine, tomatoes etc for lunch.



they are stretching the definition of "foraging"  to breaking point there........


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> they are stretching the definition of "foraging"  to breaking point there........


Indeed. I find it quite embarrassing but it's all part of the same 'artisan' buzzword bullshit that comes with so many trendy nu-Brixton ventures.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 4, 2015)

Foraging? Genuine laugh out loud moment! Were the plants grown to specification in a greenhouse faraway?


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

We're on forced ignore. Please refrain from reading or commenting about my posts


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Cos you have clearly little understanding of planning law, nor the DDA; but can't resist a dig at your usual favourite bete noirs even when pointed out it probably is as accessible as many other venues (private and public).



There is no DDA any more. Everything is subsumed under the Equalities Act.



> However I do love the fact that everyone's now suddenly interested in access issues!



As a disabled person, I'm almost always interested in access issues. Unfortunately, few businesses are, except regarding the inescapable stuff regarding new developments and refurbishment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Accessibility is piss poor for a new build. Narrow walkways where one has to squeeze past drinkers who can't find anywhere to sit, the place is a joke!



Piss-poor compared even to the minimal section M requirements for residential property.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What's Offline?



Your intellect.


----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> There is no DDA any more. Everything is subsumed under the Equalities Act.


Thank you for clarifying that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 4, 2015)

editor said:


> Thank you for clarifying that.



You still get reference to specific provisions that originated with the DDA, but revision and new legislation all comes under the Equalities umbrella. Personally I think the old system of different acts for different equalities issues was better.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2015)

I'm a bit surprised that Donostia are allowed not to be accessible (assuming that's the case) because it certainly wouldn't be allowed by Part M building regs for a new-build.

I suppose some kind of special allowance has been made for it as a temporary building, but I don't see any particular logic for that, other than that it woudl be prohibitively expensive to install lifts.

It seems that with the will, the whole of the 1st floor could have been made accessible by connecting back to the ramp in the polytunnel, but that would have required yet more bespoke structure to support walkways and the like and further revealed the fallacy that building stuff from shipping containers really makes much sense.

I'm guessing that all of the upper-floor work/office units are also inacessible. Again, would certainly not be allowed in a new build.


----------



## T & P (Nov 4, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> they are stretching the definition of "foraging"  to breaking point there........


See? Absolutely perfect example here. Someone posts news of an inititiative that is wholly positive and a good fucking thing whichever way you want to look at it, and all the reaction/ comment it gets from you is to question the validity of a single bloody word in the long press release. Which then gets elaborated on by others seemly as keen to paint every story related to Pop in a negative light, or when that fails make irrelevant points to demean or distract from the story in question.

I mean, seriously... What in the actual fuck??


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)

This looks like a great idea.

Co-Pop is coming to Pop very soon. The collective is made up of 10 entrepreneurs who have all faced financial disadvantage, and who as sole traders could not have set up their own businesses.







Apparently, they've all overcome a number of their own personal challenges including long-term unemployment, juggling being single parents and homelessness. 

Through Co-Pop they are all hoping to come off benefits and independently support themselves financially. 

The whole thing is linked to these guys: Common Cause


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 4, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> This looks like a great idea.
> 
> Co-Pop is coming to Pop very soon. The collective is made up of 10 entrepreneurs who have all faced financial disadvantage, and who as sole traders could not have set up their own businesses.
> 
> ...


Looking forward to seeing how this one gets slapped down by the haterz.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 4, 2015)




----------



## editor (Nov 4, 2015)

I'm not seeing quite a few of the posts here because I've got several posters on ignore, but I don't think it's fair to just dismiss people out of hand as "haterz."

There clearly are some worthwhile (but generally smaller and often temporary) projects and events taking place at Pop, but arguing that their existence instantly invalidates all criticism or concerns anyone may have about the place is a deeply flawed approach.

I'd agree that the cynicism sometimes runs too deep here, but I'd argue that is a direct result of the way that this place was pushed through and altered without proper consultation. I think it's great that a small part of Pop is being used for worthwhile projects, even if they are only temporary - but trying to present that as the whole story is dishonest - as a visit to the place on a weekend evening would testify.

I also think it's good that people care enough to try and hold the council to account over this, especially when corporate shite like Adidas stage a heavily branded "takeover" of the space.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> This looks like a great idea.
> 
> Co-Pop is coming to Pop very soon. The collective is made up of 10 entrepreneurs who have all faced financial disadvantage, and who as sole traders could not have set up their own businesses.
> 
> ...


I wish you would stop arguing that worthwhile projects like this instantly invalidate all criticism of Pop.


----------



## discobastard (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm not seeing quite a few of the posts here because I've got several posters on ignore, but I don't think it's fair to just dismiss people out of hand as "haterz."
> 
> There clearly are some worthwhile (but generally smaller and often temporary) projects and events taking place at Pop, but arguing that their existence instantly invalidates all criticism or concerns anyone may have about the place is a deeply flawed approach.
> 
> ...


Why not un-ignore people then.  There are some good posts from people you have ignored highlighting good things and raising points worth discussing.

The people being ignored are not the people who pushed it through without proper consultation and can't do anything about it.  It is what it is, and many of those people are trying to highlight the good stuff rather than the Adidas stuff. 

Ignoring people whose opinions you don't like is subjective editing rather than objective moderating, which I thought was your job on this forum.  And that's something worth discussing, no?

Given that it is what it is, and nobody has a time machine to travel back and change what the council and other parties have pushed through, why ignore people pointing out some of the better stuff because it's not what was originally promised?

I can't see anybody here presenting the good things as the whole story, just the way things are now where it is what it is.  As before, not a dig, just why not let people point out the good stuff rather than assuming they are trying to undermine arguments about what it _should have been, _which, if we're honest, does anybody trust?  We should all know corruption is rife in local authorities.  And even if they're pointing out stuff you don't personally agree with or like then surely free speech in response is OK?

(But you won't see this will you? )

ETA I bet you're seeing more of the posters you ignore than you suggest, otherwise you'd struggle to moderate/edit the forum.  Whichever it is you think you're doing.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 5, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


>




You actually took the time to do this?


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 5, 2015)

Hip hop fish and chip shop missed a trick not getting a unit at Pop. In flip flops.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 5, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Hip hop fish and chip shop missed a trick not getting a unit at Pop. In flip flops.


If Lambeth still own the freehold of 378 maybe they could do a swap?


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Hip hop fish and chip shop missed a trick not getting a unit at Pop. In flip flops.


Well, they're owned by estate agents so they'd fit right in with the Pop business ethos.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 5, 2015)

I was curious , and admittedly a bit suspicious, as to why Buy Back Rice was claiming on it's website to be a charity without showing the normal CC number / logo. So I sent them an e-mail asking and got this reponse:
"
_Thank you for your message. 

My name is Renee and I am the co-founder of Buy Rice Back and the My name is Kumar foundation. 

Buy Rice Back is registered in the Netherlands together with the My name is Kumar foundation. This is under the number 591 875. 
Currently we are in the process of registering Buy Rice Back and My name is Kumar also in the UK. Last week we received our legal advice and the process has started. As soon as we have received our charity commission number we will share it on the Buy Rice Back website and the My name is Kumar website. 

Currently a web developer is helping us to make some changes to the website and the Dutch charity number will appear then as well. 

Please let me know if you have any questions and I am happy to help you. "_

So fair play and good luck to them.


----------



## deadringer (Nov 5, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> You actually took the time to do this?



I remember fondly Editor doing something similarly hilarious.


----------



## elmpp (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Well, they're owned by estate agents so they'd fit right in with the Pop business ethos.


Explain how Pop's business ethos correlates with an estate agent's


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I remember fondly Editor doing something similarly hilarious.


Oh yes, Great. Just keep dragging me into this. Keep trying to make it personal. Keep trying to make sure that this thread remains a total embarrassment to the site.


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Explain how Pop's business ethos correlates with an estate agent's


Maybe you've forgotten who they partnered with after the Edible Bus Stop exitid?

Let me give you a clue:

They're the people who target 'ambitious young professionals' with properties that 'perfectly support the lifestyles that our generation aspire to, celebrating community, convenience and quality'.

They like to 'create work spaces for the next generation of entrepreneurs and innovators,' because 'flexibility, creativity and fulfiment are the new currencies of our generation,' so it's a good job these city boys are here to 'provide places where people with ideas can make them happen.'

Almost sounds like something from a Tory party manifesto, no?


----------



## elmpp (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Oh yes, Great. Just keep dragging me into this. Keep trying to make it personal. Keep trying to make sure that this thread remains a total embarrassment to the site.


Don't see how it's personal. I'd wager that if the largely baseless, course criticisms stopped so would the digs


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Don't see how it's personal. I'd wager that if the largely baseless, course criticisms stopped so would the digs


That is rather priceless coming from the person who posted this:


elmpp said:


> I hate editor so much it makes me scream


Please keep any further observations to yourself as your agenda is rather obvious.


----------



## elmpp (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Maybe you've forgotten who they partnered with after the Edible Bus Stop exitid?
> 
> Let me give you a clue:
> 
> ...


Yes, it's fluffy crap. Where's the business practices you're comparing


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 5, 2015)

elmpp said:


> Don't see how it's personal. I'd wager that if the largely baseless, course criticisms stopped so would the digs



Wouldn't be heathier if people responded to the 'largely baseless, course criticisms' without having to resort to digs? or is there no sport in that?


----------



## Rushy (Nov 5, 2015)

I don't think anyone has argued that the good things starting to happen /already happening should insulate Pop from any criticism. The position has been that the criticism being hurled in spades has been at best desperately nit picky and at worst deliberately misleading. It had willfully ignored the fact that the project was under development and not in full swing. Pretended it is nothing but a club for toffs. Pretended that it is defined by a week of corporate sponsorship of the stage. Pretended that none of these elements were in the original proposal. Pretended that it is wholly frivolous and exclusive. Ignored the fact that the revenue raising commercial elements were always part of the plans and were always going to be introduced first. That these would fund space for startups and socially minded enterprises, as is starting to happen. Any valid points largely got lost in the tirade.

Getting off your arse and making something like this happen is not easy. You have to make compromises and can't get everything right. So it's easy to pick fault. The criticisms of Offline not really being FREE as advertised, consequently not really being cheaper to drink at as claimed and not being accessible were thrown into the mix by various posters just to show how easy it is to find fault in the most innocuous event, one proffered as an example of how things _should_ be done. The reaction to that criticism shows just how dispiriting and destructive this type of comparison and criticism rebranded as "holding to account" can be. For the record, long may Offline continue.

I have a lot of issues with the way Lambeth council operate but I don't feel there was a big issue with the consultation on Pop, particularly given the time frames and it's short planned existence. There was the initial competition, voted on by the public, and then two planning applications. I don't think what is being delivered differs much from the original concept. I'm looking forward to seeing how the work spaces coming into use transforms it.


----------



## Winot (Nov 5, 2015)

Rushy said:


> criticism being hurled in spades



No spades though


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Wouldn't be heathier if people responded to the 'largely baseless, course criticisms' without having to resort to digs? or is there no sport in that?


It's beyond tiresome and it follows the same pattern: instead of arguing the points being presented, the same depressing circle of posters go for the ad hominem every time, dredging up anything they can find about my personal life even when it clearly has absolutely nothing to do with the topic under discussion.

What's more frustrating is that they do it from the deeply cowardly position of being anonymous, so even though they're quick to criticise others for supposed 'hypocrisy,' their our own personal affairs aren't introduced to the same scrutiny.

Case in point is the way that my club night has repeatedly been brought up in this thread. It has nothing to do with Pop. There is no connection whatsoever, yet somehow I'm supposedly being damned for the fact that there has been an admission price charged in less than 1% of my shows and around 1% of my shows have had poor accessibility.

So why is it mentioned? It's because the same handful of posters have no actual argument and can only resort to cheap, low ad hominems, safe in the knowledge that any shortcomings in their own lives will never be revealed. And those same posters don't give a fuck if it trashes this forum in the process.

Even after being put on mutual ignore they're still unable to stop themselves posting the same personal character assinations. It's as depressing as it is tragic and it's killing this forum.


> An _*ad hominem*_ (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for _*argumentum ad hominem*_, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly


----------



## deadringer (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> '.
> 
> They like to 'create work spaces for the next generation of entrepreneurs and innovators,' because 'flexibility, creativity and fulfiment are the new currencies of our generation,' so it's a good job these city boys are here to 'provide places where people with ideas can make them happen.'




How else is a business expected to get started up then, what would be acceptable to you?

A person has an idea, and to traditionally get started you'd have to hire a shop, or office, possibly with a long tie in, business rates, etc etc, with no idea of how sucessful it would be.

You seem to intensely dislike the 'pop up' and yes, I do get that it is a bit of a wanky term associated with the dreaded Shoreditch. But thinking positively, it's a good cheap way to test out a business idea without getting tied in to long expensive contracts. If the business doesn't take off you haven't lost much. If it does, you can move up from your small container, hot desk, small office, into a larger area to suit the possibly growing business needs. Eventually, if successful, a shop on the high st can be thought about, or taking a lease on a proper office. Is there really anything wrong with that?


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

deadringer said:


> How else is a business expected to get started up then, what would be acceptable to you?


I'm not a fan of opportunistic, well funded city-boy developers like The Collective being involved with Pop, but if you're happy with that kind of outside company getting involved, that's just fine with me.

I'm not minded to provide any kind of breakdown of the businesses I'd prefer to support because it will only turn into another mass '_let's pick holes in the Editor's opinion_'-a-thon and, trust me, I've had enough of them.

But I will give you one example, and it's something that I had hoped that Pop may have been more amendable to: Project - Detail  Meanwhile Space CIC


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 5, 2015)

But even the project partner on that is JP Morgan / Morgan Chase! They make the Collective look like the kitchen sink developers they are.

JP are massive local landowners too aren't they?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2015)

My advice to anyone who doesn't want holes picked in their opinions is to not post their opinions on urban75.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 5, 2015)

Likewise, if you don't want your business discussed, don't present it as a case study in support of your argument.


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> But even the project partner on that is JP Morgan / Morgan Chase! They make the Collective look like the kitchen sink developers they are.
> 
> JP are massive local landowners too aren't they?


The point being is that - in my opinion - the Platform offers a far more accessible opportunity to locals starting out in business, with far less risk and far smaller overheads. Wouldn't you agree?

And, as far as I could see, JP Morgan haven't got their name plastered all over the building, not that I'm going to sing the praises of that particular bunch either. But it's an entirely different set up anyway, without any of the luggage and broken promises that accompanied Pop.


----------



## Maharani (Nov 5, 2015)

teuchter said:


> My advice to anyone who doesn't want holes picked in their opinions is to not post their opinions on urban75.


I thought that was a given when you sign up!


----------



## Ol Nick (Nov 5, 2015)

Maharani said:


> I thought that was a given when you sign up!


No it isn't.


----------



## Maharani (Nov 5, 2015)

Ol Nick said:


> No it isn't.


That's not what I was told...


----------



## Rushy (Nov 5, 2015)

Maharani said:


> That's not what I was told...


Exactly who told you that? When? How? Are they a reliable source? How long have they been on urban? Do they live in Brixton? Which postcode? Eh? I said _Brixton. _Link or it is a loada rubbish.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 5, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Looking forward to seeing how this one gets slapped down by the haterz.



The haterz?
You're clueless.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 5, 2015)

Eddy and the Haterz......Shurely


----------



## deadringer (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> I'm not a fan of opportunistic, well funded city-boy developers like The Collective being involved with Pop, but if you're happy with that kind of outside company getting involved, that's just fine with me.



I made no mention of well funded city-boy developers, or how happy I am they are involved. BUT, unfortunately for you, they are involved. Yep, they are in it for the cash, of which Lambeth will get a portion. The business model appears to be charge higher rents to food/drink traders to enable cheaper rent for small start up business. With a bit of growing thrown in, bits for kids, charities etc. What essentially is wrong with that? No one is saying it's perfect or the balance is just right, but it is what it is.



editor said:


> I'm not minded to provide any kind of breakdown of the businesses I'd prefer to support because it will only turn into another mass '_let's pick holes in the Editor's opinion_'-a-thon and, trust me, I've had enough of them.



I didn't ask for a breakdown of which business you'd prefer to support, I'm genuinely interested in what other models there are that you would approve of for someone with a business idea and not a lot of cash to get going? For me the pop up, or renting a desk, space or area at affordable rates in somewhere like pop is a good way to get going, test out ideas, without taking huge risks on something that may or not be successful.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The haterz?
> You're clueless.


You're as interesting as ever


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

deadringer said:


> I didn't ask for a breakdown of which business you'd prefer to support, I'm genuinely interested in what other models there are that you would approve of for someone with a business idea and not a lot of cash to get going?


I just gave an example but you didn't seem too interested in discussing that any further.


----------



## deadringer (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> I just gave an example but you didn't seem too interested in discussing that any further.



Sorry, missed that at the end. Sounds quite similar to some of the goings on at pop to me. Even down to our favorite word 'vibrant'!
Did any of the participants go on to build sucessful businesses out of the workshops? (Genuine question, not having a dig)


----------



## editor (Nov 5, 2015)

deadringer said:


> Sorry, missed that at the end. Sounds quite similar to some of the goings on at pop to me.


There's actually a gulf of difference to what's mostly happening at Pop, where (most of) the businesses need a fair amount of capital to get in and then have to commit long term. 

I'd say it's too early to know if any of the businesses have gone on to bigger things, but it still seems a far more accessible and affordable way to trial a business idea than Pop. Some urbanites ran a cider bar there and seemed to find it a great way to test the waters.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 5, 2015)

editor said:


> The point being is that - in my opinion - the Platform offers a far more accessible opportunity to locals starting out in business, with far less risk and far smaller overheads. Wouldn't you agree?
> 
> And, as far as I could see, JP Morgan haven't got their name plastered all over the building, not that I'm going to sing the praises of that particular bunch either. But it's an entirely different set up anyway, without any of the luggage and broken promises that accompanied Pop.



To some degree - my brief skim suggests that it offers training and then 1 - 4 weeks of free space? There's an option of 6 month free tenancies for some, but I can't see how they assess who gets them? With those backers I assume a business plan showing some profitability or at least I>E if they're not for profit? If I find the time I'll ask tomorrow. 

It's incubator work done in the community. Owen Jarvis wrote that CASS report which models how & why multinationals should host local innovators; partly as a way of finding new businesses without having to invest lots of cash. A lazy comparison is the approach companies do to get the public to make adverts / films for branded goods through prize competitions - the small print states that you lose the intellectual property / copyright on submission.

As an aside, JP Morgan don't need public profile or branding - the number of web hits you get if you search the combination of "jp morgan & lambeth" shows that their audience isn't the public, its the local authority [and many others] and the contracts and brownie points they can win through soft projects such as Platform.  It easily uses their redundant space as part of their own investment plans.

 In short - they have free accommodation and can use lambeth's ESF funding or Lambeth funding to underwrite their own overheads and get to cherry pick any good ideas, whilst getting fluffy feel good CSR pr.

It's no better or worse than pop. The difference is jp is a clear profit making company with a sketchy past and a vested interest in driving up the value of property it buys when the market is low. Lambeth is a local authority fucked by funding cuts and dubious third way politics. We all know you can't trust an LA to run anything well; so do they so they manage that risk by passing the responsibility to others to take on. 

As the later arrival of the more 'social good' side of pop happens, I hope it balances the hospitality / zeitgeist food side which is needed to pay for the subsidised rents. Will the social capital created exceed the antisocial behaviour / consequence of gentrification? I don't know, maybe we should apply for a London Community Foundation small grant to capture local people's perceptions / stories and have this on going row actually assessed by someone with some academic research experience?


----------



## leanderman (Nov 6, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> maybe we should apply for a London Community Foundation small grant to capture local people's perceptions / stories and have this on going row actually assessed by someone with some academic research experience?



I've successfully applied for a couple of small grants under this JPM-backed LCF scheme. The cash helped make things happen in this street.


----------



## footballerslegs (Nov 6, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> As the later arrival of the more 'social good' side of pop happens, I hope it balances the hospitality / zeitgeist food side which is needed to pay for the subsidised rents. Will the social capital created exceed the antisocial behaviour / consequence of gentrification? I don't know, maybe we should apply for a London Community Foundation small grant to capture local people's perceptions / stories and have this on going row actually assessed by someone with some academic research experience?



I'd love some funding for a small research grant that unpicks local definitions and perceptions of 'gentrification' (and its consequences) as a concept in itself. At the moment the term is used so uncritically, it drives me mad.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 6, 2015)

footballerslegs said:


> I'd love some funding for a small research grant that unpicks local definitions and perceptions of 'gentrification' (and its consequences) as a concept in itself. At the moment the term is used so uncritically, it drives me mad.


You should set up working group with OvalhouseDB. She must have some contacts.

Oval House Theatre has some obscure connection with Christ Church College Oxford.
This is where the old boys network would have come up with the goodies.**

As for gentrification in Brixton - I think I may have said before there is evidence this was kick-started as early as 1980 when Housing Action Areas were intorduced. Grants of up to £30,000 were made to property owners to tart up their properties.

Big money in 1980 - at least double the actual cost of a large house on Railton or Mayall Roads for example.

I think what you might be driving at is the use of language though.
In which case gentrification has become more of a marker in an ingroup/outgroup sense. Like Chelsea (FC) as opposed to Chelsea (part of RBKC). 

I hope this has been helpful.

PS ** Don't have any truck with those fucking Illuminati at JP Morgan. They are part of the problem.


----------



## editor (Nov 6, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> It's no better or worse than pop.


On that point we shall have to disagree.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 6, 2015)

Platform appears to be more about testing ideas than actually starting up. It's great that we have both. One can feed into the other.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 6, 2015)

Rushy said:


> Platform appears to be more about testing ideas than actually starting up. It's great that we have both. One can feed into the other.


That's what I was thinking. If as in the case of the cider bar it's a to be a good idea a regular Pop Up seems a great idea to see if the idea has wings Togo to the next level. Like a pilot that all good projects have.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 6, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> You're as interesting as ever



You classify people holding a different perspective as "haterz". That's "interesting" insofar as it reveals binary thinking - the last refuge of the child or the lazy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 6, 2015)

footballerslegs said:


> I'd love some funding for a small research grant that unpicks local definitions and perceptions of 'gentrification' (and its consequences) as a concept in itself. At the moment the term is used so uncritically, it drives me mad.



As said elsewhere on this forum (and in academic articles - I recommend Paul Watt or Steve Hodkinson on "regeneration" as interesting takes on the G-word), there are almost as many meanings as there are examples of urban gentrification.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 6, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You classify people holding a different perspective as "haterz". That's "interesting" insofar as it reveals binary thinking - the last refuge of the child or the lazy.



Cos binary thinking isn't appearing elsewhere on this thread?


----------



## editor (Nov 6, 2015)

The Collective and Carl Turner are now taking over the Peckham car park for more of the same
Pop Brixton takes over Peckham's iconic multi-story car park


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 6, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Cos binary thinking isn't appearing elsewhere on this thread?



I think it's been a little bit more nuanced than "haterz" and others, don't you?


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 6, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's "interesting" insofar as it reveals binary thinking - the last refuge of the child or the lazy.


Unlike the personal abuse you often resort to?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 6, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Unlike the personal abuse you often resort to?



When I abuse someone, the abuse is generally carefully calibrated, and I don't resort to it "often". Rather, you eject so much specious comment from your arse that it *seems* as if I'm abusing you "often".


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 6, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> When I abuse someone, the abuse is generally carefully calibrated, and I don't resort to it "often". Rather, you eject so much specious comment from your arse that it *seems* as if I'm abusing you "often".


Sure, sure tell yourself that  

zzzzzz


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 7, 2015)

Apart from the poly tunnel, Pop was quiet in the rain today. Brixton Food Court was deserted unfortunately - not a single person in there. Hope it survives the winter. Got potential I reckon


----------



## CH1 (Nov 7, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> Apart from the poly tunnel, Pop was quiet in the rain today. Brixton Food Court was deserted unfortunately - not a single person in there. Hope it survives the winter. Got potential I reckon


That's because everyone was on the Libraries demo.
Why weren't you?


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 7, 2015)

Because I'm on my way back from work


----------



## CH1 (Nov 9, 2015)

I just wanted to share with people a photo of one of my favourite "spots" in Accra,  Ghana - the WATO bar.
Same idea of outdoor terrace drinking - but cheap as (yam) chips not neo-hipster. At least not when I was last there in 2008.
Actually the place has been around in the same format since about 1920. Something POP is unlikely to march.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2015)

Intern required at Pop. No mention of payment. 


> Do you LOVE Vintage? Do you love being CREATIVE? Do you have a PASSION for FASHION?
> 
> Then we want YOU as our INTERN!!
> 
> ...


----------



## Maharani (Nov 9, 2015)

I cannot bear the word 'upcycling'.


----------



## editor (Nov 9, 2015)

Maharani said:


> I cannot bear the word 'upcycling'.


I want someone to make urban75 even more brilliant than it already is! Preferably at no cost to me!


----------



## bimble (Nov 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> As said elsewhere on this forum (and in academic articles - I recommend Paul Watt or Steve Hodkinson on "regeneration" as interesting takes on the G-word), there are almost as many meanings as there are examples of urban gentrification.


Just found this by your man Hodkinson which looks like it's about right here where I live (loughborough junction) but can't access the article - any advice / academic passwords please?EmeraldInsight


----------



## bimble (Nov 10, 2015)

This is happening at Pop on 28th (?) 
Upcoming Events | Conference: Another Lambeth is Possible | Lambeth Housing Activists


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2015)

bimble said:


> This is happening at Pop on 28th (?)
> Upcoming Events | Conference: Another Lambeth is Possible | Lambeth Housing Activists


Yes - it's a smart move bringing the debate to Pop: 


> We are meeting at Pop Brixton – seen by many as a beacon of gentrification – and reclaiming it for a day of wide-ranging community debate and discussion


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 10, 2015)

bimble said:


> Just found this by your man Hodkinson which looks like it's about right here where I live (loughborough junction) but can't access the article - any advice / academic passwords please?EmeraldInsight



PM/conversation me with your e-mail address, and I'll forward you a .pdf copy.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 13, 2015)

Lincoln from BC is playing records there tonight as part of the BC fundraising campaign:

Brixton Briefcase Presents


----------



## Belushi (Nov 13, 2015)

DJ Cheekyhalf


----------



## T & P (Nov 13, 2015)

I suspect this particular event at Pop Brixton will not be subject to the usual scorn and scrutiny we've grown accustomed to in this thread


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 13, 2015)

T & P said:


> I suspect this particular event at Pop Brixton will not be subject to the usual scorn and scrutiny we've grown accustomed to in this thread


Demonstrating that not everything at Pop is automatically disliked.
£5 is a bit steep for entry though........


----------



## T & P (Nov 13, 2015)

It's for good cause though. I wouldn't mind going but I can't.


----------



## Maharani (Nov 13, 2015)

I think Lucy Fur was kidding.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 13, 2015)

T & P said:


> I suspect this particular event at Pop Brixton will not be subject to the usual scorn and scrutiny we've grown accustomed to in this thread


It will more be ignored like the other good things that happen there.


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 13, 2015)

could it be that exposure on this forum is making more community focussed events happen at Pop ?


----------



## deadringer (Nov 13, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> could it be that exposure on this forum is making more community focussed events happen at Pop ?




There has always been community focussed events on at Pop, unfortunately they tend to get ignored as its much more fun pretending it's Brixtons biggest pub for adults, and for the right kind of people with the right amount of disposable income


----------



## alfajobrob (Nov 13, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> could it be that exposure on this forum is making more community focussed events happen at Pop ?



Pahahahahaha ha


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2015)

deadringer said:


> There has always been community focussed events on at Pop, unfortunately they tend to get ignored as its much more fun pretending it's Brixtons biggest pub for adults, and for the right kind of people with the right amount of disposable income


And although it's great that there are some community events happening there, they're generally of a very ephemeral nature and very much in the minority compared to the food/drinking/selling stuff.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Cos you have clearly little understanding of planning law, nor the DDA; but can't resist a dig at your usual favourite bete noirs even when pointed out it probably is as accessible as many other venues (private and public).
> 
> However I do love the fact that everyone's now suddenly interested in access issues!


It's not been the dda since 2010.The dda was superceded by the equality act 2010.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 14, 2015)

Yes, sorry but I think when I posted that I was simultaneously reading the DDA anniversary press.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2015)

Belushi said:


> DJ Cheekyhalf



I prefer his sister, DJ CheekyNandos.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Nov 18, 2015)

"_POP Brixton is fulfilling its promise of creating a sustainable and community minded business park, and in the process helping Lambeth move community benefit from Corporate social responsibility to core business."
_
Discuss...

[I am not a bad person for bumping this thread. _Am I?_]


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> "_POP Brixton is fulfilling its promise of creating a sustainable and community minded business park, and in the process helping Lambeth move community benefit from Corporate social responsibility to core business."
> _
> Discuss...
> 
> [I am not a bad person for bumping this thread. _Am I?_]


Did any of that ever appear in the original Grow Brixton proposals? I don't recall a "_community minded business park"_ being bandied about as the main reason for its existence.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 19, 2015)

It think we'vd past the point of what was and what is. We have reached the point of 'it's exactly as it was mean't to be...honest guv'


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 19, 2015)

Edited cos I'm losing patience.....


----------



## han (Nov 20, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Edited cos I'm losing patience.....


If you're still posting on this thread, you've got the patience of a saint!


----------



## teuchter (Nov 20, 2015)

As already posted by Gramsci on the Brixton thread -

Another Lambeth is Possible | Facebook



> Thousands marched to 'Reclaim Brixton' but hyper development in the area continues to displace long-term communities. This conference allows political decisionmakers and Lambeth community members to find solutions to the negative impacts of the housing crisis together.
> 
> Welcome to everyone, particularly past or current residents affected by regeneration, young people excluded from the benefits of 'development', small business owners, migrant communities and the many precarious groups under threat of being priced out for good.
> 
> We are meeting at Pop Brixton - seen by many as a beacon of gentrification - and reclaiming it for a day of wide-ranging community debate and discussion.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

It's becoming a temporary 'branch' of the Ritzy, with films being shown in the Pop Box. Is it just me, or does an admission charge of £13 seem well steep for a 'community' venture in a temporary cinema?

Pop Ritzy launches film program for Pop Brixton in December


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

By comparison, instead of paying £13 to watch an old film in a shipping container in Brixton, you can see the latest blockbuster movies in the five-star rated surroundings of the Peckham Plex for just £4.99.


----------



## Angellic (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> It's becoming a temporary 'branch' of the Ritzy, with films being shown in the Pop Box. Is it just me, or does an admission charge of £13 seem well steep for a 'community' venture in a temporary cinema?
> 
> Pop Ritzy launches film program for Pop Brixton in December




And really a 'branch' of Cineworld.


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> By comparison, instead of paying £13 to watch an old film in a shipping container in Brixton, you can see the latest blockbuster movies in the Peckham Plex for just £4.99.



.... but you might end up sitting next to someone who is not _likeminded_,


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

Make 2 or maybe even 3 festive baubles for £16.37 at Pop. 
Christmas Bauble Making Workshop


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Make 2 or maybe even 3 festive baubles for £16.37 at Pop.
> Christmas Bauble Making Workshop


Total bargain compared to the "make your very own felt christmas pudding" class, at £21.49. For some reason a christmas pudding made of felt does not appeal.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 24, 2015)

Bargain. I envisage in the week before Xmas a "roast your own spuds" workshop - £25


----------



## Tricky Skills (Nov 24, 2015)

Imagine a green oasis.


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2015)

Forgot, spotted this poster yesterday, for the event at Pop on 28th which is this Saturday .
But.. what does the subliminal/ hammer house writing behind the writing say ?

my best guess is 'colonialism' (?)

But anyway quite an interesting lineup for saturday:
Lambeth Housing Activists | a home is a right not a privilege.


----------



## T & P (Nov 24, 2015)

bimble said:


> Forgot, spotted this poster yesterday, for the event at Pop on 28th which is this Saturday .
> But.. what does the subliminal/ hammer house writing behind the writing say ?
> View attachment 79992
> my best guess is 'colonialism' (?)


 It looks a bit like 'cannibalism'. Which, to be fair, would be quite damaging to any community.


----------



## bimble (Nov 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> It looks a bit like 'cannibalism'. Which, to be fair, would be quite damaging to any community.


The last frontier of quirky eateries.


----------



## T & P (Nov 24, 2015)

bimble said:


> The last frontier of quirky eateries.


I for one would happily pay £35 a head for a whole liver with fava beans and a nice bottle of _chianti_.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 24, 2015)

I met my little niece at the weekend. She at the age now where she can be endlessly amused by saying/doing the same thing over and over. I was trying to think what she reminds me of.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I met my little niece at the weekend. She at the age now where she can be endlessly amused by saying/doing the same thing over and over. I was trying to think what she reminds me of.


Is she prone to tantrums?

Does she put her fingers in her ears and say "LALALA can't hear you" if you contradict her?


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 24, 2015)

teuchter said:


> Is she prone to tantrums?
> 
> Does she put her fingers in her ears and say "LALALA can't hear you" if you contradict her?


No, she is 3 now and has outgrown that behaviour.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I met my little niece at the weekend. She at the age now where she can be endlessly amused by saying/doing the same thing over and over. I was trying to think what she reminds me of.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I met my little niece at the weekend. She at the age now where she can be endlessly amused by saying/doing the same thing over and over. I was trying to think what she reminds me of.


While any news about your little niece is sure to be really deeply fascinating, I fancy it might be a little off topic for this thread, so let's talk about the latest developments in Pop Brixton instead!

What do you think of Pop Brixton turning into an outpost for the corporate chain Cineworld and charging £13 to watch old films in a pile of old shipping containers? Do you think that represents good value to the community, given that you can see the latest blockbuster in the more comfortable environs of the Peckham Plex for just £4.99? Any opinion?


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> What do you think of Pop Brixton turning into an outpost for the corporate chain Cineworld and charging £13 to watch old films in a pile of old shipping containers? Do you think that represents good value to the community, given that you can see the latest blockbuster in the more comfortable environs of the Peckham Plex for just £4.99? Any opinion?


I think it would be more honest to compare the cost of the Pop cinema with the cost of Brixton Ritzy.

But truthfully I don't give a flying fuck. I'm neither going to go to Pop, Brixton or Peckham cinemas anytime soon and as I have many more pressing things in my life I intend to give the cost of a cinema in Peckham v's the cost of the Pop cinema no more thought whatsoever.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 24, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Imagine a green oasis.



Every time I try, I get a mental image of the Gallagher bros putrefying. I find it quite...satisfying.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I think it would be more honest to compare the cost of the Pop cinema with the cost of Brixton Ritzy.


Total cop out, as expected. They are hardly comparable. One is a proper cinema, with all the comfort and facilities you might expect, while the other is a temporary pop up made up of old shipping containers and wood showing old films.


Mr Retro said:


> But truthfully I don't give a flying fuck.


You can't defend what they're doing, so you're just going to try and kill the debate by posting up petulant comments and irrelevant drivel about your niece?

To paraphrase your own language, if you don't give a flying fuck about the discussion then please fuck off out of the thread.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

Behold: the green oasis. A verdant, planted and productive garden amidst the containers and concrete of Brixton! A community-led 'narrative landscape.' if you will.

 

Mote: Any resemblance to the outdoor area of a pub is strictly coincidence.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I think it would be more honest to compare the cost of the Pop cinema with the cost of Brixton Ritzy.



The Ritzy is £12.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Behold: the green oasis. A verdant, planted and productive garden amidst the containers and concrete of Brixton! A community-led 'narrative landscape.' if you will.
> 
> View attachment 79998
> 
> Mote: Any resemblance to the outdoor area of a pub is strictly coincidence.



I refuse to refute (yet again) your tedious and obsessive narrative. It's beyond boring.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I refuse to refute (yet again) your tedious and obsessive narrative. It's beyond boring.


As is your 'I'm all right Jack,' head in the clouds narrative. The good news is that there is still no reason for to comment on posts that don't involve you, so you can keep your ad hominens to yourself.

I will note however, that you appear to have no actual opinion about the steep cost of the shipping container cinema.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> Total cop out, as expected. They are hardly comparable. One is a proper cinema, with all the comfort and facilities you might expect, while the other is a temporary pop up made up of old shipping containers and wood showing old films.
> You can't defend what they're doing, so you're just going to try and kill the debate by posting up petulant comments and irrelevant drivel about your niece?
> 
> To paraphrase your own language, if you don't give a flying fuck about the discussion then please fuck off out of the thread.


She's 3.


----------



## T & P (Nov 24, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Imagine a green oasis.


I think you might have made that point already tbh...


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> To paraphrase your own language, if you don't give a flying fuck about the discussion then please fuck off out of the thread.


I don't give a flying fuck about the cinema and its relative cost or what it's built of. Does that mean I have to leave the larger discussion about Pop?

Or is this you just twisting what I said?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Nov 24, 2015)

T & P said:


> I think you might have made that point already tbh...



If you close your eyes and imagine very, very hard, it might just happen.

Imagine a green oasis.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> She's 3.


Just grow up, ffs.

This thread is for discussing what's happening at Pop Brixton.  If you want to discuss your niece, start a thread in an appropriate forum.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> I will note however, that you appear to have no actual opinion about the steep cost of the shipping container cinema.



My opinion was that it was £1 more costly than the Ritzy.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

leanderman said:


> My opinion was that it was £1 more costly than the Ritzy.


That's a statement of fact not an opinion. 

What is your opinion of the Ritzy setting up a new stage at Pop and charging £13? Good value do you think? Good to have a corporate cinema chain involved?


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 24, 2015)

I hope that shipping container is heated, watching a film for 2 hours in the cold is surely no fun.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 24, 2015)

editor said:


> That's a statement of fact not an opinion.
> 
> What is your opinion of the Ritzy setting up a new stage at Pop and charging £13? Good value do you think? Good to have a corporate cinema chain involved?



If I go I might express an opinion.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

leanderman said:


> If I go I might express an opinion.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 24, 2015)

It doesn't sound like an appealing choice. What are the seats like?


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It doesn't sound like an appealing choice. What are the seats like?


They must surely be nearly three times better than those at the Peckham Plex.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 24, 2015)

And never mind comparing it to the ritzy, you may as well compare what they're offering to sitting in someone's garden shed on a bucket watching a film showing on a portable TV, sat on an upturned buxket.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 24, 2015)

I'd probably pay £15 to not have to go to Peckham. I wouldn't be doing anything else, just not going to Peckham.


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> And never mind comparing it to the ritzy, you may as well compare what they're offering to sitting in someone's garden shed on a bucket watching a film showing on a portable TV, sat on an upturned buxket.


Right next door to noisy neighbours.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 24, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> I think it would be more honest to compare the cost of the Pop cinema with the cost of Brixton Ritzy.
> 
> But truthfully I don't give a flying fuck. I'm neither going to go to Pop, Brixton or Peckham cinemas anytime soon and as I have many more pressing things in my life I intend to give the cost of a cinema in Peckham v's the cost of the Pop cinema no more thought whatsoever.


but nothing more pressing than being a dick on this thread?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 24, 2015)

I do enjoy these episodes of Pop Brixton Comparisons and it's all very well comparing Pop Brixton's classic/indie film screenings to the blockbusters in the Multiplex in Peckham, or to watching the telly on upturned buckets in garden sheds but I'd just like to point out I was already way ahead of the curve back in October when I comparitively evaluated the cinematic merits of the tube station.



teuchter said:


> Has anyone noticed how the Tube station is a really rubbish cinema? Compared to the Ritzy?


----------



## editor (Nov 24, 2015)

The strange reluctance of certain posters to express an opinion on this 'Pop Ritzy' pop up project is rather telling.

Normally, they usually have no problem expressing their opinion about _any_ development at Pop, but for some reason they seem singularly unable to offer any thoughts about the involvement of a multi million cinema chain or the high pricing.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 24, 2015)

Well I for one like it. It's another cinema. Great


----------



## deadringer (Nov 24, 2015)

It's all about Netflix & Chill now, so I'm led to believe. Much more fun this time of year!


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> let's talk about the latest developments in Pop Brixton instead!
> What do you think of Pop Brixton turning into an outpost for the corporate chain Cineworld and charging £13 to watch old films in a pile of old shipping containers? Do you think that represents good value to the community, given that you can see the latest blockbuster in the more comfortable environs of the Peckham Plex for just £4.99? Any opinion?



Contrariwise.. I went to see a film at the 4.99 anytime anyday Peckham People's MultiPlex last week and the popcorn was atrocious.
I mean it was 1 out of 10 properly shameful popcorn. 
I clearly asked for a mix of sweet and salty (can't remember the price but it was definitely not cheap) but she categorically failed to understand the importance of the thing: 
What we got was about 20 minutes of sugar followed by a not very crispy hour of unadulterated salt. 
And all really quite soggy and antique feeling popcorns. Disgaceful. 
Say what you will about the Pop Cinema merger I imagine the'll be offering a proper piquant handshuffled mix of artesanal himalayan pink salt and organically plucked fair trade toffee panfried corns.


----------



## Winot (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> The strange reluctance of certain posters to express an opinion on this 'Pop Ritzy' pop up project is rather telling.
> 
> Normally, they usually have no problem expressing their opinion about _any_ development at Pop, but for some reason they seem singularly unable to offer any thoughts about the involvement of a multi million cinema chain or the high pricing.



Editor, I'm shocked. It's almost as if you're stirring up conflict in an attempt to boost site traffic.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 25, 2015)

You're all Cineworld board members obvs. Popcorn Magnates.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Behold: the green oasis. A verdant, planted and productive garden amidst the containers and concrete of Brixton! A community-led 'narrative landscape.' if you will.
> View attachment 79998
> Mote: Any resemblance to the outdoor area of a pub is strictly coincidence.


This looks to me more like a bordello in a Spaghetti Western - you know the sort, where you strike a huge oversized match on Klaus Kinski's shoulder pad and a shoot-out ensues.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Editor, I'm shocked. It's almost as if you're stirring up conflict in an attempt to boost site traffic.


It has been quiet lately


----------



## Winot (Nov 25, 2015)

Anyway, the cinema sounds overpriced to me, and if they've pitched the price too high then I guess punters will vote with their feet. If people are prepared to go, then that's a sign that they pitched it right.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 25, 2015)

CH1 said:


> This looks to me more like a bordello in a Spaghetti Western - you know the sort, where you strike a huge oversized match on Klaus Kinski's shoulder pad and a shoot-out ensues.


Sounds more like a description of this thread, than of PB.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 25, 2015)

Simple one really:

How can watching a film in a pop up shipping container cost more than going to a real cinema nearby?

Answers on a postcard to the management, Pop Brixton.


----------



## Winot (Nov 25, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Simple one really:
> 
> How can watching a film in a pop up shipping container cost more than going to a real cinema nearby?
> 
> Answers on a postcard to the management, Pop Brixton.



Well you can imagine how that can be the case - high capital outlay recouped over a shorter period of time necessitates higher ticket costs to break even.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Well you can imagine how that can be the case - high capital outlay recouped over a shorter period of time necessitates higher ticket costs to break even.


Exactly what ticket-price-hiking 'high capital outlay' is going to be needed for the Ritzy to move into this 'community' space? 

The _whole point_ of pop ups is that they don't require high capital outlays.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Anyway, the cinema sounds overpriced to me, and if they've pitched the price too high then I guess punters will vote with their feet. If people are prepared to go, then that's a sign that they pitched it right.


Or it's a sign that they're not interested in attracting the whole community, and are far more interested in attracting the kind of demographic with that kind of disposable income.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Editor, I'm shocked. It's almost as if you're stirring up conflict in an attempt to boost site traffic.


Reduced to ad hominems already? I guess that's what happens when the arguments run out.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot, it's wrong to make ad hominem attacks. Remember to use the term "certain posters" instead to avoid doing so.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Simple one really:
> 
> How can watching a film in a pop up shipping container cost more than going to a
> 
> ...


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Or it's a sign that they're not interested in attracting the whole community, and are far more interested in attracting the kind of demographic with that kind of disposable income.


How do you know that people in the "whole community" won't want to go? That's a bit patronising. Go to purley way Odeon and there are plenty of "poor people" enjoying a film night for twenty five quid or so. No yuppies, but then there's about 3 yuppies in the whole of Croydon anyway.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Well you can imagine how that can be the case - high capital outlay recouped over a shorter period of time necessitates higher ticket costs to break even.



And, supposedly, the commercial aspects of Pop are part-subsidising the more social enterprises - as well as providing a profit share for the council.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> And, supposedly, the commercial aspects of Pop are part-subsidising the more social enterprises - as well as providing a profit share for the council.


But this can not be taken into account in our evaluation of the project because athough it was in the original Grow Brixton proposal, it was not visible in the promo images and we must assume that local people are only able to form an opinion about proposals by looking at promo images.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> How do you know that people in the "whole community" won't want to go? That's a bit patronising.


Just to remind you of the obvious: the nearby ward is one of the most deprived in London. If you're surviving on low income, do you think that many families (2 adults/2 kids) are going to have £38 to blow on watching old films in a trendy pop up cinema? Add in drinks and popcorn and they'd be lucky to get change our of £50.

If they wanted the whole community to be involved the answer is simple: charge the kind of affordable prices the Peckham Plex do - and that's a proper cinema with far better facilities for families. Total ticket cost for a family of 4 = £19.96


----------



## Winot (Nov 25, 2015)

teuchter said:


> But this can not be taken into account in our evaluation of the project because athough it was in the original Grow Brixton proposal, it was not visible in the promo images and we must assume that local people are only able to form an opinion about proposals by looking at promo images.



I'm just annoyed that the pop-up cinema isn't showing films about gardening as we were originally promised


----------



## leanderman (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> I'm just annoyed that the pop-up cinema isn't showing films about gardening as we were originally promised



Besides, Home Alone is rather violent for what is supposed to be a family film. I am surprised it has a PG rating.

Our kids were less scared by Jaws and Hunger Games.


----------



## deadringer (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Just to remind you of the obvious: the nearby ward is one of the most deprived in London. If you're surviving on low income, do you think that many families (2 adults/2 kids) are going to have £38 to blow on watching old films in a trendy pop up cinema? Add in drinks and popcorn and they'd be lucky to get change our of £50.
> 
> If they wanted the whole community to be involved the answer is simple: charge the kind of affordable prices the Peckham Plex do - and that's a proper cinema with far better facilities for families. Total ticket cost for a family of 4 = £19.96



HOUSE!

We've had ad hominem attacks, I was waiting for 'The most deprived ward in London', 

I WIN! U75 bingo, love it.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> HOUSE!
> 
> We've had ad hominem attacks, I was waiting for 'The most deprived ward in London',
> 
> I WIN! U75 bingo, love it.


Childish dick

Is it not true then?


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Besides, Home Alone is rather violent for what is supposed to be a family film. I am surprised it has a PG rating.
> 
> Our kids were less scared by Jaws and Hunger Games.


 
most of the violence is inflicted on a  couple of swarthy ne-er do wells  so the censors took a relaxed view........


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

deadringer said:


> HOUSE!
> 
> We've had ad hominem attacks, I was waiting for 'The most deprived ward in London',
> 
> I WIN! U75 bingo, love it.


Anything but address the topic, eh? You and several others have really shown your true colours here. You think it's all a big joke.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Anything but address the topic, eh? You and several others have really shown your true colours here. You think it's all a big joke.



I believe it's about two film screenings a month.

Oh, and this:

_'The Ritzy also plans to use this extra screen to showcase the work of up and coming filmmakers from the area and welcomes submissions and suggestions from South London talent'_


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Oh, and this:
> 
> _'The Ritzy also plans to use this extra screen to showcase the work of up and coming filmmakers from the area and welcomes submissions and suggestions from South London talent'_


Yes, that's mentioned in the original article I posted, although they provided no actual detail. Have you formed an opinion about whether having a corporate entity like Cineworld using Pop Brixton in this way is a good thing, and whether the pricing is reasonable yet, or are you going to continue to be be highly selective in your points?


----------



## CH1 (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, that's mentioned in the original article I posted, although they provided no actual detail. Have you formed an opinion about whether having a corporate entity like Cineworld using Pop Brixton in this way is a good thing, and whether the pricing is reasonable yet, or are you going to continue to be be highly selective in your points?


Cineworld is hardly an incubator - is it?


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## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

Imo when all said and done its the goverment's fault for social cleansing, not businesses in brixton


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## alcopop (Nov 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> I believe it's about two film screenings a month.
> 
> Oh, and this:
> 
> _'The Ritzy also plans to use this extra screen to showcase the work of up and coming filmmakers from the area and welcomes submissions and suggestions from South London talent'_



What utter bastards


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

alcopop said:


> What utter bastards


What do you think of the £13 charge? How do you feel about a large corporate setting up shop in "a pioneering new space created with the local community in mind to showcase the best and most exciting independent start-ups and businesses from Brixton and Lambeth"?

Or are you only interested in cheering on these vague, unspecified plans for local filmmakers?


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 25, 2015)

Oh well, you'll know that the extra you paid for the vibrant edginess was worth it when you can hear the rain pinging down on the tin roof.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 25, 2015)

on the bright side, at least a lot of 'like minded people' are locked up in their own cell for a couple of hours.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

i was in station road the other night and what is that club/bar just opposite the rec?

the crowds were milling around outisde and i was struck by how wealthy they looked. no bloke under six foot, beautiful skin and nashing white teeth everywhere, beautiful expensive clothes on site everywhere, private school accents, double kisses on the cheeks, provincial Dorothies and 500k a year Roberts,in their 30s, all  so different to any bar i have seen in brixton, ever. not quite Sloane,but  nouveau riche - yuppies who have made it half a decade ago,etc

i just can't figure out whether i care or not.

it's depressing, but i know so many other "real" places in London that i guess i just feel sad that the brixton i used to live in an love is now closer resembling balham/clapham.

i


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i was in station road the other night and what is that club/bar just opposite the rec?
> 
> the crowds were milling around outisde and i was struck by how wealthy they looked. no bloke under six foot, beautiful skin and nashing white teeth everywhere, beautiful expensive clothes on site everywhere, private school accents, double kisses on the cheeks, provincial Dorothies and 500k a year Roberts, so different to any bar i have seen in brixton, ever. not quite Sloane,but  nouveau riche - yuppies who have made it half a decade ago,etc
> i


That sounds very much like the Pop crowd. In fact, most of Brixton on a weekend. Do you mean the Craft Bar? Or has some other godforsaken cocktail bar for the rich opened up in the soon-to-be-crushed-by-cash Station Road?


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> That sounds very much like the Pop crowd. In fact, most of Brixton on a weekend. Do you mean the Craft Bar? Or has some other godforsaken cocktail bar for the rich opened up in the soon-to-be-crushed-by-cash Station Road?


no, not teh craft bar - a bit along, opposite. was shocked. there were people walking past taking the piss out of them, and people staring and shaking their heads. must have been 30 or so loitering outside, queuing, smoking etc.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> no, not teh craft bar - a bit along, opposite. was shocked. there were people walking past taking the piss out of them, and people staring and shaking their heads. must have been 30 or so loitering outside, queuing etc.


I think I'm too scared to check!

I pass that kind of crowd most days in Brixton, hanging around well-to-do places like the Shrub & Shutter, 354 and the Wine Parlour.


----------



## cuppa tee (Nov 25, 2015)

geckovision ?


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

cuppa tee said:


> geckovision ?



Ah yes. That could be it. Ra-ra cocktails all round and £6 for a pint.


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2015)

This thread makes me feel depressed in all sorts of different ways.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

one or two spots here and there of that sort of up market stuff i think is fine, even quite nice, if it is an invasion, i think all brixton lovers should be concerned - the place will just literally morph into balham, which is nice, i suppose, i like it, but bye bye thriving, diverse, interesting town with all sorts going on. i still find it hard to blame people running businesses. more can be done instead in controlling rents, buildling more social housing, protecting old businesses from developers, etc. setting up a business and running with it has certain virtues that shouldn't be discouraged or frowned upon, no matter who they cater for. just my two cents.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

bimble said:


> This thread makes me feel depressed in all sorts of different ways.


yes, feels like an end of an era tbh. nothing is sacred, not even brixton.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> one or two spots here and there of that sort of up market stuff i think is fine, even quite nice, if it is an invasion, i think all brixton lovers should be concerned - the place will just literally morph into balham, which is nice, i suppose, i like it, but bye bye thriving, diverse, interesting town with all sorts going on. i still find it hard to blame people running businesses. more can be done instead in controlling rents, buildling more social housing, protecting old businesses from developers, etc. setting up a business and running with it has certain virtues that shouldn't be discouraged or frowned upon, no matter who they cater for. just my two cents.


It is an invasion, mainly facilitated by corporate chains, faux independents, well heeled backers, the old boys' network and, of course, the (guffaw) 'co-operative' council.

They're all here to line their pockets with little regard to what came before or with any consideration to anyone outside their well-to-do demographic, and what they're creating is a play pen for the privileged (Shrub & Shutter, 354 and all the nibbling'n'grazing restaurants etc), a Caribbean theme park (Turtle Bay, Chip Shop, Boom Burger etc) or nu-Labour/Thatcherite  'entrepreneurial' 'incubator' zones and developer free-for-alls (Pop Brixton, The Collective, Brixton Green, Lexadon etc).

There's nowt left but crumbs for anyone whose face doesn't fit in this nu-Brixton. But that's not a problem as they'll soon be priced out of town anyway.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

i do agree editor, it is rank really.


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2015)

You know that stall on station road right before Pop, the one that has piles of red gold & green clothing and rasta accessories ? Last time I walked past i saw it in new way; as a tourist shop, for souvenirs from your trip to ye olde Brixton. Not saying this is correct at all just one of those odd moments of seeing familiar things differently.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> the brixton i used to live in an love is now closer resembling balham/clapham.



I went to school in Clapham in the 1970s - I can assure you that Clapham is totally unrecognisable now from those days.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

bimble said:


> You know that stall on station road right before Pop, the one that has piles of red gold & green clothing and rasta accessories ? Last time I walked past i saw it in new way; as a tourist shop, for souvenirs from your trip to ye olde Brixton. Not saying this is correct at all just one of those funny moments of seeing familiar things differently.



it's strange to think that not long ago the afro-Caribbean community was quite dominant in brixton. i remember walking along railton into brixton and it was like kingston Jamaica, you knew you had arrived in brixton. there were many things that kept me amused, mainly the local drum and bass clubs and the fridge and the coffee shop on CHL (where me and my wife first met), but you had a sense that the migrant and their generations were thriving and making the town what it was.

now walking down railton which i do often when i fancy a stroll from Thornton Heath, it's either empty or couples english storming home with their heads down, or people quietly leaving middle class eateries. i always think "where is it gone? is it hiding somewhere?" you still see flashes of it in Thornton heath, but never that same energy and density of people and trades.


----------



## bimble (Nov 25, 2015)

It's not the same thing at all but I grew up near what is now Camden Market Ltd, a tourist shopping mall where people from all over the world come to buy punk and goth type clothing seemingly oblivious to the fact that what made the place special once upon a time is completely gone. Enough! Somebody say something funny and cheery please.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

bimble said:


> It's not the same thing at all but I grew up near what is now Camden Market Ltd, a tourist shopping mall where people from all over the world come to buy punk and goth type clothing seemingly oblivious to the fact that what made the place special once upon a time is completely gone. Enough! Somebody say something funny and cheery please.


Oh, I think Camden is a very valid comparison. It was horrible watching the life being sucked out of that place, and that's what's happening to Brixton.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 25, 2015)

bimble said:


> It's not the same thing at all but I grew up near what is now Camden Market Ltd, a tourist shopping mall where people from all over the world come to buy punk and goth type clothing seemingly oblivious to the fact that what made the place special once upon a time is completely gone. Enough! Somebody say something funny and cheery please.


Cressingham Gardens!
Cressingham Gardens’ tenant wins High Court legal battle against Lambeth Council


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

bimble said:


> It's not the same thing at all but I grew up near what is now Camden Market Ltd, a tourist shopping mall where people from all over the world come to buy punk and goth type clothing seemingly oblivious to the fact that what made the place special once upon a time is completely gone. Enough! Somebody say something funny and cheery please.


i drove about 500 miles to see millwall lose last night.


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> it's depressing, but i know so many other "real" places in London that i guess i just feel sad that the brixton i used to live in an love is now closer resembling balham/clapham.
> 
> i



The last time I walked through Brixton late at night it reminded me more of Harrogate or Cheltenham. I prefer going round the market on weekdays now, since all the rah-rahs you describe tend to be absent.


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 25, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> Cressingham Gardens!
> Cressingham Gardens’ tenant wins High Court legal battle against Lambeth Council


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

I've just found out how much Pop Brixton wants to charge for a rehearsal space in the evening. £50. _Per hou_r.

Until recently there was places like the Grosvenor and the Canterbury that would happily give up their back room space for  musicians/dancers etc for free/cheap. Looks like they've got nowhere to go now unless they've a ton of cash.


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i drove about 500 miles to see millwall lose last night.



And_ still_ no-one likes you.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> And_ still_ no-one likes you.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> I've just found out how much Pop Brixton wants to charge for a rehearsal space in the evening. £50. _Per hou_r.
> 
> Until recently there was places like the Grosvenor and the Canterbury that would happily give up their back room space for  musicians/dancers etc for free/cheap. Looks like they've got nowhere to go now unless they've a ton of cash.



The Canterbury offered the backroom for free for a ton of stuff....bands, family events, club nights, rehearsals...a great resource lost.


----------



## Winot (Nov 25, 2015)

Front room of Effra Social is available for free,  isn't it? Also St. Vincent Conmunity centre used to be pretty cheap - don't know if that's still the case.


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Front room of Effra Social is available for free,  isn't it? Also St. Vincent Conmunity centre used to be pretty cheap - don't know if that's still the case.


That's only if it's not full and it's not really ideal for rehearsals - more meetings.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Front room of Effra Social is available for free,  isn't it? Also St. Vincent Conmunity centre used to be pretty cheap - don't know if that's still the case.



Yes, it is good that we have a couple left, but going from 4 to 2 is not a positive is it? 

Maybe there are more around. A thread to highlight free/low budget spaces would be quite a positive addition to u75.


----------



## leanderman (Nov 25, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I went to school in Clapham in the 1970s - I can assure you that Clapham is totally unrecognisable now from those days.



Do you think  Brixton and Clapham are becoming alike - or is the gap the same - just with each place more expensive?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Do you think  Brixton and Clapham are becoming alike - or is the gap the same - just with each place more expensive?



I was in Clapham at the weekend. It seemed to have lost it's upwardly mobile feel at night and gone a bit Blackpool@


----------



## superfly101 (Nov 25, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I was in Clapham at the weekend. It seemed to have lost it's upwardly mobile feel at night and gone a bit Blackpool@



What was it called I went twice? All you could drink for £10 entrance on the High St where Boots or Super Drug is now! 

It's always been a bit @Blackpool@ tbf.


----------



## Winot (Nov 25, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I was in Clapham at the weekend. It seemed to have lost it's upwardly mobile feel at night and gone a bit Blackpool@



Clapham High Street has always been a bit like that, hasn't it? In the time I've been around anyway. What's the name of that awful night club?


----------



## leanderman (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Clapham High Street has always been a bit like that, hasn't it? In the time I've been around anyway. What's the name of that awful night club?



Inferno's


----------



## ash (Nov 25, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I was in Clapham at the weekend. It seemed to have lost it's upwardly mobile feel at night and gone a bit Blackpool@


Or Falaraki


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Nov 25, 2015)

ash said:


> Or Falaraki



I wouldn't know


----------



## ash (Nov 25, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I wouldn't know


I'm only guessing on both counts


----------



## Dan U (Nov 25, 2015)

Balham and Clapham proper used to be fairly different places to how they are now. My step sister and then later my friends used to squat in Clapham North, it was full of squats in the late 80s/early 90s.

Balham had a big Irish population, was pretty run down and lots of prostitution etc down towards the common. 

Tooting as well to a lesser extent, although Tooting has changed in a slightly different way but is now becoming more like Balham (Tooting used to have a big Irish population as well and several old school Irish pubs rubbing along beside the growing Asian population. Now it's a growing Balham spill over)


----------



## discobastard (Nov 25, 2015)

Dan U said:


> Balham and Clapham proper used to be fairly different places to how they are now. My step sister and then later my friends used to squat in Clapham North, it was full of squats in the late 80s/early 90s.
> 
> Balham had a big Irish population, was pretty run down and lots of prostitution etc down towards the common.
> 
> Tooting as well to a lesser extent, although Tooting has changed in a slightly different way but is now becoming more like Balham (Tooting used to have a big Irish population as well and several old school Irish pubs rubbing along beside the growing Asian population. Now it's a growing Balham spill over)


Hmmm. 
Tooting still has a *long* way to go before it becomes anywhere near as bad as Balham is now. A good ten years I reckon, if that's where it's heading. 

Balham is like an upper middle class theme park. 

ETA: Where To Eat And Drink In... Balham


----------



## Dan U (Nov 25, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Hmmm.
> It still has a *long* way to go before it becomes anywhere near as bad as Balham is now.



yeah for sure but it can happen quite quickly. even Balham from 10 ish years ago is different to Balham now (no Waitrose etc)


----------



## discobastard (Nov 25, 2015)

Dan U said:


> yeah for sure but it can happen quite quickly. even Balham from 10 ish years ago is different to Balham now (no Waitrose etc)


Yeah I edited my post as such. I moved there ten years ago and stayed for two before I moved to Tulse Hill. My bedroom overlooked the old Safeways that got turned into Waitrose. Lots changed in those two years. 

I had cause to spend quite a bit of time there a couple of years back and was shocked at how uniform it had all become. Nice food mind you but yeah, try to avoid it now. Just a bit posh and dull.


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 25, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Inferno's


shudder


----------



## T & P (Nov 25, 2015)

Winot said:


> Clapham High Street has always been a bit like that, hasn't it? In the time I've been around anyway. What's the name of that awful night club?


That has always been my impression. Clapham Common might have had distinctly expensive properties compared to Brixton until about 8-10 years ago, but its nightlife offerings have always been a bit ropey.

Sometimes it doesn't even feel like London. It is astonishing that a place as fucking atrocious as Inferno's continues to exist and presumably flourish in an affluent Zone 2 neighbourhood a stone's throw from central London.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 25, 2015)

Says it all really, especially the Inner London stat. What used to be limited to smaller areas closer to the center, is now by simple weight of numbers pushing steadily outwards. Today Brixton, 2025 Streatham. Who knows where it'll end?

*sadface*


----------



## teuchter (Nov 25, 2015)

I wonder what would have happened to those lines if WW2 hadn't happened.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 25, 2015)

editor said:


> Behold: the green oasis. A verdant, planted and productive garden amidst the containers and concrete of Brixton! A community-led 'narrative landscape.' if you will.
> 
> View attachment 79998
> 
> Mote: Any resemblance to the outdoor area of a pub is strictly coincidence.



Looks more like a military field kitchen-cum-mess hall, especially with those military surplus folding benches and tables.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 25, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> Imo when all said and done its the goverment's fault for social cleansing, not businesses in brixton



The one feeds the other, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 25, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> I went to school in Clapham in the 1970s - I can assure you that Clapham is totally unrecognisable now from those days.



Clapham Manor, or Henry T?


----------



## leanderman (Nov 26, 2015)

Crispy said:


> View attachment 80025
> 
> Says it all really, especially the Inner London stat. What used to be limited to smaller areas closer to the center, is now by simple weight of numbers pushing steadily outwards. Today Brixton, 2025 Streatham. Who knows where it'll end?
> 
> *sadface*



You get a very close match when you fit house price rises over that chart


----------



## discobastard (Nov 26, 2015)

T & P said:


> That has always been my impression. Clapham Common might have had distinctly expensive properties compared to Brixton until about 8-10 years ago, but its nightlife offerings have always been a bit ropey.
> 
> Sometimes it doesn't even feel like London. It is astonishing that a place as fucking atrocious as Inferno's continues to exist and presumably flourish in an affluent Zone 2 neighbourhood a stone's throw from central London.


Bit of a value judgement there, no?  I've never been to Infernos, but there's no reason why a trashy nightclub shouldn't flourish if its serving a demographic that's been there for years and years is there?

ETA: Infernos is an institution, of sorts.  If you start to bandy round whether 'institutions' should exist then that's just a form of censorship, which provokes a *lot* more questions.  You could then say the same about the Albert or the 414.  Why should they exist and flourish a stone's throw from central London?

This is a big city, and everybody deserves a part of it.  What seems to being said here is that no demographic should flood a certain area.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2015)

teuchter said:


> I wonder what would have happened to those lines if WW2 hadn't happened.


"London’s population fell throughout the 1950s, ‘60s and ‘70s, losing just over 700,000 people over the ‘70s alone..
Sustained growth began in the 1990s and accelerated in the 2000s, with the population rising by over 800,000 in the first decade of the 21st century.
In the last four years London’s population is estimated to have grown by over 100,000 a year, perhaps the fastest growth in its history (the 1890s saw growth of 93,800 a year but no yearly figures are available).



Lots of exciting graphs in here, hours of fun for the graph-fans amongst us:
https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Housing in London 2014 - Final_1.pdf


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 26, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Clapham Manor, or Henry T?



Henry T.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 26, 2015)

leanderman said:


> Do you think  Brixton and Clapham are becoming alike - or is the gap the same - just with each place more expensive?



A good question. I always saw them as two sides of the same coin. What has changed is the price of houses, which has driven working class ownership out. When I first heard about "Abbeville Village" I laughed, old school mates lived round there - look at it now.
The Common is an obvious barrier and I always thought that the North side was different


----------



## BigMoaner (Nov 26, 2015)

In brixton up until recently you had a lot of first or second gen migrant home ownership, but they've been rapidly moving out to leafier climes. To be replaced by wealthy proffesionals with disposable. Isn't it a white majority town now? It will never return to what it was, slum landlords won't touch it like in the past. The flow will always be away to be replaced by the weathy


----------



## Winot (Nov 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> In brixton up until recently you had a lot of first or second gen migrant home ownership, but they've been rapidly moving out to leafier climes. To be replaced by wealthy proffesionals with disposable. Isn't it a white majority town now? It will never return to what it was, slum landlords won't touch it like in the past. The flow will always be away to be replaced by the weathy



It has been white majority for a long time, hasn't it?  Lambeth was about 30% Afro-Caribbean in the 1990s iirc.

Big increase in population of Polish to London from 2004, lots of (white) Portuguese round here too.  Not well-off.

Yes there has been a big increase in 20-something renters in Brixton in last few years, and recent house purchasers have to be rich, but my guess is that a lot of the crowd you saw outside Eckovision came here to drink and don't necessarily live here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Henry T.



Knew loads of blokes that went there. Didn't have a bad reputation compared to a lot of others!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Hmmm.
> Tooting still has a *long* way to go before it becomes anywhere near as bad as Balham is now. A good ten years I reckon, if that's where it's heading.
> 
> Balham is like an upper middle class theme park.
> ...



To be fair, Balham came out of the gentrification blocks quite a bit earlier than Tooting. Back in the early '80s, the middle classes were buying up the Edwardian and Georgian homes on and off Bedford Hill almost as soon as Wandsworth Council decided to throw their weight behind moving prostitution on from the bottom end of Bedford Hill - a lot on the junctions of side roads like Shipka Rd, and the BR car park - up onto the common.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 26, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> In brixton up until recently you had a lot of first or second gen migrant home ownership, but they've been rapidly moving out to leafier climes. To be replaced by wealthy proffesionals with disposable. Isn't it a white majority town now? It will never return to what it was, slum landlords won't touch it like in the past. The flow will always be away to be replaced by the weathy



That'll only be true if inner London doesn't suffer its usual cyclical fate of eventual dilapidation and the fleeing of the "wealthy professionals" to the 'burbs and the Home Counties.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2015)

Just to annoy everyone, here's an article which takes a decidedly long view of things. 

Eg)  "The great disaster of the anti-gentrification protests is that they are intrinsically conservative, protesting against change and targeting new developments in particular. But new developments are exactly what we need. Unless many more homes are built, then prices will continue to rise, which will always penalise the worse off. That the new developments are too few, and will therefore tend to be too expensive, is a problem. But the answer is more development and more change, not less.'

Reclaim Brixton: gentrifiers against gentrification


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2015)

bimble said:


> Just to annoy everyone, here's an article which takes a decidedly long view of things.
> 
> Eg)  "The great disaster of the anti-gentrification protests is that they are intrinsically conservative, protesting against change and targeting new developments in particular. But new developments are exactly what we need. Unless many more homes are built, then prices will continue to rise, which will always penalise the worse off. That the new developments are too few, and will therefore tend to be too expensive, is a problem. But the answer is more development and more change, not less.'
> 
> Reclaim Brixton: gentrifiers against gentrification


So letting get rich-quick developers carry on building more and more unaffordable homes without complaining  is the solution?


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2015)

editor said:


> So letting get rich-quick developers carry on building more and more unaffordable homes without complaining  is the solution?


That was quick! Did introduce it with the proviso 'this will annoy you'.. 
Me I'm all for complaining loudly about the fact that the new flats being built here are totally unaffordable let alone social housing, but think the article has something interesting to say about underlying causes and the wider context. I'll get my coat


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 26, 2015)

bimble said:


> Reclaim Brixton: gentrifiers against gentrification


From the concluding paragraph :
_"When the inner city was derelict and heavily policed, people dreamed of the regeneration of their neighbourhoods. "_

Yep, they also dreamed of being *included *in the regeneration of their neighborhoods, not the neighbourhoods being tarted up and them being asked to find somewhere else to live / work.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 26, 2015)

bimble said:


> That was quick!


I hope you're not suggesting any urban75 posters are guilty of making default soundbite comments without even reading the article.

I think it's not a bad account of things really.

It's interesting that one of the articles quoted from 2000 talks about house prices doubling within 5 years at that point. I thought the speed of the recent increases was fairly unprecedented but maybe not if that's true.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2015)

teuchter said:


> It's interesting that one of the articles quoted from 2000 talks about house prices doubling within 5 years at that point. I thought the speed of the recent increases was fairly unprecedented but maybe not if that's true.


Me too, certainly feels like that.


----------



## alcopop (Nov 26, 2015)

bimble said:


> Just to annoy everyone, here's an article which takes a decidedly long view of things.
> 
> Eg)  "The great disaster of the anti-gentrification protests is that they are intrinsically conservative, protesting against change and targeting new developments in particular. But new developments are exactly what we need. Unless many more homes are built, then prices will continue to rise, which will always penalise the worse off. That the new developments are too few, and will therefore tend to be too expensive, is a problem. But the answer is more development and more change, not less.'
> 
> Reclaim Brixton: gentrifiers against gentrification



Good article imho


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 26, 2015)

alcopop said:


> Good article imho



A load of ill-informed, inaccurate waffle imho. Starting with the subtitle: "middle-class moaning." 

Yeah, THAT'S all the Reclaim Brixton demo was.


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> From the concluding paragraph :
> _"When the inner city was derelict and heavily policed, people dreamed of the regeneration of their neighbourhoods. "_
> 
> Yep, they also dreamed of being *included *in the regeneration of their neighborhoods, not the neighbourhoods being tarted up and them being asked to find somewhere else to live / work.


Which is indeed the point, and one of the main things that the Reclaim Brixton protest was about.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2015)

What I liked about the article is that it goes to the (I reckon) root of the thing, property prices, and comes to the not very surprising conclusion that if champagne bars replacing yam shops in Brixton is to be addressed what London needs (very uncomfortable idea) is a massive amount of new homes, affordable ones, like an amount that we're never going to get, the sort of amount that would change the curve of making zone two a place for the wealthy only.

Not pretending I've got the answer but do feel that smashing Foxtons windows whilst cathartic doesn't have much of a long term effect.
If the definition of affordable and the statutory ratio of required social housing to 'luxury' flats in newbuilds was to change, that might actually help?


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2015)

bimble said:


> Not pretending I've got the answer but do feel that smashing Foxtons windows whilst cathartic doesn't have much of a long term effect.
> If the definition of affordable and the statutory ratio of required social housing to 'luxury' flats in newbuilds was to change, that might actually help?


I don't think anyone, anywhere, has claimed that smashing up Foxtons is going to actually change anything, although it might perhaps deliver some much-needed moments of schadenfreude to help momentarily brighten up the plight of those being priced out of their own community.


----------



## bimble (Nov 26, 2015)

All I'm saying is that the artwork on the left is better than the one on the right.


----------



## T & P (Nov 26, 2015)

bimble said:


> All I'm saying is that the artwork on the left is better than the one on the right.
> View attachment 80066


I'd stay well clear of the Politics/ protest forums if I were you


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 26, 2015)

bimble said:


> View attachment 80063
> What I liked about the article is that it goes to the (I reckon) root of the thing, property prices, and comes to the not very surprising conclusion that if champagne bars replacing yam shops in Brixton is to be addressed what London needs (very uncomfortable idea) is a massive amount of new homes, affordable ones, like an amount that we're never going to get, the sort of amount that would change the curve of making zone two a place for the wealthy only.
> 
> Not pretending I've got the answer but do feel that smashing Foxtons windows whilst cathartic doesn't have much of a long term effect.
> If the definition of affordable and the statutory ratio of required social housing to 'luxury' flats in newbuilds was to change, that might actually help?


totaly agree with you. A major issue, imo, is the definition of affordable homes. If the average salary is in the region of 25K, then the old maxim was a mortgage for 3.5x your salary which equates to a property worth 87.5K.  You aint getting nothing for that anywhere in the SE of england, nevermind brixton. Even being generous, say two peoples income, so 7 x 25 still only = 175k, still alongway short of the realistic 250k you need. There in lies the rub, the people who can afford those prices are generally moving in and displacing those who already live here. Were back (if indeed we ever left it) to Tebbit, and if you cant afford it get on your bike mentality. that provokes the anger you see in the likes of class war/smashing foxtons/etc etc. I agree with your later post that the image on the left is more palatable than the one on the right, its a more reasoned position, but for many the time of reasoned debate is long gone, they are litrally fighting to protect their homes / communities. 
And actualy do join in and post on the politics / protest forums, the only people who get blazed are those looking for a petty wind up. sincerity is your best shield against that.


----------



## bimble (Nov 27, 2015)

Lucy Fur said:


> totaly agree with you. A major issue, imo, is the definition of affordable homes. If the average salary is in the region of 25K, then the old maxim was a mortgage for 3.5x your salary which equates to a property worth 87.5K.  You aint getting nothing for that anywhere in the SE of england, nevermind brixton. Even being generous, say two peoples income, so 7 x 25 still only = 175k, still alongway short of the realistic 250k you need. There in lies the rub, the people who can afford those prices are generally moving in and displacing those who already live here. Were back (if indeed we ever left it) to Tebbit, and if you cant afford it get on your bike mentality. that provokes the anger you see in the likes of class war/smashing foxtons/etc etc. I agree with your later post that the image on the left is more palatable than the one on the right, its a more reasoned position, but for many the time of reasoned debate is long gone, they are litrally fighting to protect their homes / communities.
> And actualy do join in and post on the politics / protest forums, the only people who get blazed are those looking for a petty wind up. sincerity is your best shield against that.



Thanks Lucy Fur, a kind post.
You're right of course - unless the definition of affordable changes drastically then not only will the new flats being built not help they'll just accelerate things. Sitting around in front of my broadband being reasonable and saying that cw is not the answer is a privilege. Disclosure: I am not fighting for my home, Lambeth hasn't told me they want to demolish it and move me and the cat to Croydon.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 27, 2015)

Winot said:


> Well you can imagine how that can be the case - high capital outlay recouped over a shorter period of time necessitates higher ticket costs to break even.



Yes, I can see the case. Market stall holder selling inferior veg at higher prices than the fresh product on the stall nearby because the stall owner had a high capital outlay which he needs to recoup to break even. Naturally the stall holder is hoping the veg buying public will choose his inferior wares over the other stall.


----------



## bimble (Nov 28, 2015)

The Another Lambeth Is Possible event at Pop this afternoon includes a talk by someone who clearly knows what she's talking about..http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=rdr_ext_aut?_encoding=UTF8&index=books&field-author=Loretta Lees

plus also, Helen Hayes .


----------



## editor (Nov 28, 2015)

bimble said:


> The Another Lambeth Is Possible event at Pop this afternoon includes a talk by someone who clearly knows what she's talking about..http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=rdr_ext_aut?_encoding=UTF8&index=books&field-author=Loretta Lees
> 
> plus also, Helen Hayes .


She was on the same Tedx talk as me. I wasn't entirely convinced to the solutions offered in relation to Brixton. Still, it should be a good talk. I was asked to take part in today's event too but there's no chance of me being there when football is on!


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 28, 2015)

editor said:


> She was on the same Tedx talk as me. I wasn't entirely convinced to the solutions offered in relation to Brixton. Still, it should be a good talk. I was asked to take part in today's event too but there's no chance of me being there when football is on!



is the correct answer, see you later!


----------



## Tricky Skills (Nov 30, 2015)

Every time I bump this bloody thread I want to cry.

But Impact Hub is finally, finally moving into Pop tomorrow.

KTA will be getting £100k [pdf] out of the GLA High Street Fund. The move was originally scheduled for May of this year.


----------



## aka (Dec 1, 2015)

impact hub have been in there for quite a while now.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 1, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> Every time I bump this bloody thread I want to cry.
> 
> But Impact Hub is finally, finally moving into Pop tomorrow.
> 
> KTA will be getting £100k [pdf] out of the GLA High Street Fund. The move was originally scheduled for May of this year.


I assume by KTA you mean Carl Turner Architects?

Where in that document does it say they will be getting 100k?

As far as I can see, £100k is awarded to Pop Brixton for a design and build contract. That means the £100k pays for construction costs and design and administration work carried out by CTA and anyone else. CTA will not be getting anything near £100k.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 1, 2015)

Just looking at the details the impact hub is very good value. £250 for unlimited access that you can write off to expenses anyway is a very good price.

I was a member of a co-working space in Amsterdam because working from home all the time made me go off my head a bit. With the co-working it meant I could mix it up and on the days where I had a bit of drudge work to do it helped me to be more disciplined and not procrastinate.

If we weren't moving soon I would join in a heartbeat for the Hub100 for only £140


----------



## Dan U (Dec 1, 2015)

is Impact Hub better or worse than the Second Home lot who lost out to Pop on that Peckham bid?

Second Home



> Second Home provides beautiful private studios for creative companies, as well as tranquil space for individuals and small teams to flourish.
> 
> Companies based at Second Home include SurveyMonkey, TaskRabbit, Artsy, Foursquare, General Assembly and Blue State Digital, creative agencies such as Fueled, Visualise and Rooster Punks, and homegrown innovators like Kovert Designs, Chineasy and Santander’s new £100m fin-tech fund.



I've been to the Impact Hub in Birmingham and it seems great, not full of these kind of people anyway

The 16 most interesting people who work in London's coolest startup office


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Dan U said:


> is Impact Hub better or worse than the Second Home lot who lost out to Pop on that Peckham bid?
> 
> Second Home
> 
> ...


It seems to be mainly well-connected people with money from nice backgrounds finding clever new ways to make more money for themselves and looking 'cool' in the process.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> It seems to be mainly well-connected people with money from nice backgrounds finding clever new ways to make more money for themselves and looking 'cool' in the process.



what should they be doing instead?

it's no different than you sitting in any one of your favourite cafes drinking coffee and working ultimately, it is just we are old and they are not.


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Dan U said:


> what should they be doing instead?
> 
> it's no different than you sitting in any one of your favourite cafes drinking coffee and working ultimately, it is just we are old and they are not.


It's really got little to do with age. It's more about wealth, privilege and access.

Not sure what me sitting in a cafe or my age has got to do with anything. Why always make it personal?


----------



## Dan U (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> It's really got nothing little to do with age. It's more about about wealth, privilege and access.



fwiw that really wasn't my impression from my visits to the Impact Hub in Birmingham, it is just a load of freelancers from all ethnicities and backgrounds using a space individually and collectively.

i guess the common denominator is they all have sodding Apple Laptops.

i'd much much rather an outfit like Impact Hub providing a space for start up's than that Second Home lot getting visits from the Chancellor and housing £100m investment funds in amongst the trendy beards. Thats real wealth, privilege and access.


----------



## bimble (Dec 1, 2015)

I'm confused. 


Dan U said:


> paging ClassWar2015


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 1, 2015)

More uninformed bollocks there ^^^ 

We have been through this before haven't we? Impact Hubs aren't new - they've been around for a long time, even under that name - they replicate this sort of model: 

http://can-mezzanine.org.uk/ 

Where the collective buying power of a group of not for profits gives them better facilities and some chance to meet people who are going through the same learning. 

And here's a list of people who you deem to be 'well-connected people with money from nice backgrounds finding clever new ways to make more money for themselves and looking 'cool' in the process" although you've given yourself a nice get out clause with the 'mainly'. 

http://can-mezzanine.org.uk/who-lives-here 

Including people like 

*African Caribbean Diversity*
www.acdiversity.org 
African & Caribbean Diversity (ACDiversity), which was previously known as the African and Caribbean Finance Forum, was founded in 1990 by a group of black professionals whose shared vision was of a dynamic organisation that would promote the entry, development and advancement of its members into business organisations.  In doing this it would make a positive contribution to the African and Caribbean communities and to the economy of the UK.  Today, we are the leading membership organisation of its kind in Europe.

*British Muslims for Secular Democracy *
*British Youth Council (BYC)*
*Carers Trust 
Citizens Advice Bureau*
*Disability Rights UK*
*Groundworks South 
*
I've given up C&Ping at the letter G, as its a pointless exercise.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 1, 2015)

bimble said:


> I'm confused.



involved with the poor door protests in Whitechapel.

fucking terrible things they are (the doors, not class war)


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Dan U said:


> fwiw that really wasn't my impression from my visits to the Impact Hub in Birmingham, it is just a load of freelancers from all ethnicities and backgrounds using a space individually and collectively.


But we're not talking about Birmingham. This is about Brixton and things are just a bit different here.

One of the main partners in Pop Brixton are The Collective who boast of offering accommodation to "ambitious young professionals" and who "pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, our hunger to succeed and the ability to execute."

Run by a millionaire too, natch.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> But we're not talking about Birmingham. This is about Brixton and things are just a bit different here.
> 
> One of the main partners in Pop Brixton are The Collective who boast of offering accommodation to "ambitious young professionals" and who "pride ourselves on our entrepreneurial spirit, our hunger to succeed and the ability to execute."
> 
> Run by a millionaire, natch.



yes i know who they are, they aren't who we are talking about. what do they have to do with the people who pay £250 annual subs to the Impact Hub?

You were quite happy to be angry on the behalf of Second Home recently after they lost out to Pop in Peckham, they are run by a Tory mate of George Osborne ffs.

rich cunts in running things shocker.


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Dan U said:


> involved with the poor door protests in Whitechapel.
> 
> fucking terrible things they are (the doors, not class war)


Becoming more and more common in Brixton, where anyone who can manage to get one of the reluctantly and resentfully offered (un)affordable rents on offer looks destined to enjoy a second class existence.


----------



## bimble (Dec 1, 2015)

The website says that tomorrow afternoon is a sort of Open Day so people could go and make up their minds about the actual place and humans who run it.. 'Come along to visit Impact Hub Brixton’s new home at 3.30pm on Wednesday – and meet our members during the informal Tea & Cakes event at 4pm.'
Impact Hub Brixton – Visit us


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Dan U said:


> yes i know who they are, they aren't who we are talking about. what do they have to do with the people who pay £250 annual subs to the Impact Hub?
> 
> You were quite happy to be angry on the behalf of Second Home recently after they lost out to Pop in Peckham, they are run by a Tory mate of George Osborne ffs.
> 
> rich cunts in running things shocker.


Actually, I was angry about the massively reduced provision for local artists and the involvement of Pop Brixton. If you lived here maybe you would be too.


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

bimble said:


> The website says that tomorrow afternoonis a sort of Open Day so people could go and make up their minds about the actual place and humans who run it.. 'Come along to visit Impact Hub Brixton’s new home at 3.30pm on Wednesday – and meet our members during the informal Tea & Cakes event at 4pm.'
> Impact Hub Brixton – Visit us


No brioche buns = no deal.


----------



## bimble (Dec 1, 2015)




----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

This is what the Collective stand for. Note that Pop Brixton exists in a very poor area.



> At the heart of our business is our unique Co-Living product, a new form of rental accommodation that offers ambitious young professionals a new way to live in cities. Co-living has been designed to perfectly support the lifestyles that our generation aspire to, celebrating community, convenience and quality.
> 
> As the boundaries between life and work continue to blur, we also create work spaces for the next generation of entrepreneurs and innovators. Flexibility, creativity and fulfiment are the new currencies of our generation, so we provide places where people with ideas can make them happen.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> Becoming more and more common in Brixton, where anyone who can manage to get one of the reluctantly and resentfully offered (un)affordable rents on offer looks destined to enjoy a second class existence.



here i totally agree with you. it's out of order.


----------



## cuppa tee (Dec 1, 2015)

> As the boundaries between _*life*_ and _*work*_ continue to blur


----------



## Winot (Dec 1, 2015)

Some of Impact Hub Brixton's members:


Brixton Pound – Our favourite local currency has recently kicked off its micro grants scheme, the Brixton Fund
School Ground Sounds – run by ex-maths teacher Tom, this music charity connects pupils with opportunities to perform and promote their musical talent
Rastafari Movement UK CIC – run by a committee of local people, this campaign and action group is working to provide young people in Brixton with an alternative to life in gangs
(from link here)


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## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

For the record, this was the link I was commenting on. The 16 most interesting people who work in London's coolest startup office. Sorry to spoil everyone's linkeage fun there.


----------



## Angellic (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> For the record, this was the link I was commenting on. The 16 most interesting people who work in London's coolest startup office. Sorry to spoil everyone's linkeage fun there.



Rameet Chawla certainly has 'a look'.


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2015)

Angellic said:


> Rameet Chawla certainly has 'a look'.


How sweet: 


> Klein is a well-known investor in Europe, formerly of Index Ventures. He joined Index in 2007, and invested in successful tech companies such as Songkick, Chartbeat, and MyHeritage. Another frequent visitor to Second Home is Klein's father, investor Robin Klein. Together, they invested in companies such as MOO, Tweetdeck, and bit.ly.


----------



## Dan U (Dec 1, 2015)

Angellic said:


> Rameet Chawla certainly has 'a look'.


He looks like he's just wondered out of a psy trance rave


----------



## Winot (Dec 1, 2015)

editor said:


> For the record, this was the link I was commenting on. The 16 most interesting people who work in London's coolest startup office. Sorry to spoil everyone's linkeage fun there.



Yes, I thought I'd get the thread back on topic.


----------



## T & P (Dec 1, 2015)




----------



## alcopop (Dec 1, 2015)

Winot said:


> Yes, I thought I'd get the thread back on topic.



Are we now comparing people who work in Pop against people who don't work in Pop?


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## Winot (Dec 1, 2015)

alcopop said:


> Are we now comparing people who work in Pop against people who don't work in Pop?



I must admit I lost track a few pages back.


----------



## isvicthere? (Dec 2, 2015)

In the old days, bunfights on urban used to be ideological. Now - or so it seems from this thread - they're between long term Brixtonites who remember how good and special the place used to be, and apparently more recent arrivals who don't care, or even celebrate, that it's turning into bland shit.

Who knew the latter kind of debate would be more rancorous?


----------



## CH1 (Dec 2, 2015)

editor said:


> This is what the Collective stand for. Note that Pop Brixton exists in a very poor area.


It woun't be very shortly. How about that 20 storey tower block next to the skateboard park - added to the shortly to be completed "Junction" (all appartments are now reserved).

Talking of which is there some malign verison of ticket touting going on here? Who the hell wants to live somewhere like the Junction anyway - never mind paying a deposit month in advance The Junction: Contemporary 1 & 2 bedroom apartments


----------



## leanderman (Dec 2, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Long term Brixtonites who remember how good and special the place used to be, and apparently more recent arrivals who don't care, or even celebrate, that it's turning into bland shit.



The two apparent groups cannot be divided into terms of dates of arrival.

Just as Brixton was not only good and special then but now becoming only bland and shit.

There are good and bad things about both periods.

And many of the bad things now (eg housing crisis, some venues closing) are London-wide.


----------



## editor (Dec 2, 2015)

leanderman said:


> The two apparent groups cannot be divided into terms of dates of arrival.
> 
> Just as Brixton was not only good and special then but now becoming only bland and shit.
> 
> ...


I certainly don't Brixton's past as being perfect. There were serious problems and life could be hell on some of the estates. But the community now feels like it's fracturing along the lines of the haves and have nots, and it it certainly doesn't feel as inclusive as it once was. Some of the things here are only for the rich despite some parts of the borough remaining insufferably poor. 

And if you talk to people who work in bars and clubs, many will tell you that their life has become much less pleasant because of the attitudes of some of the incomers.


----------



## editor (Dec 2, 2015)

Just had press release for a business that's popping up at Pop Brixton.

"We need to think before we shop," says their blurb. With one of their handbags costing £205 and a cushion selling for £150, they may well be right.


----------



## 299 old timer (Dec 2, 2015)

editor said:


> Just had press release for a business that's popping up at Pop Brixton.
> 
> "We need to think before we shop," says their blurb. With one of their handbags costing £205 and a cushion selling for £150, they may well be right.



Not cheap, but how many kids these days own an Xbox? Or want one for Christmas?


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## bimble (Dec 2, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> Not cheap, but how many kids these days own an Xbox? Or want one for Christmas?


Right, and those aren't even artisanal OR organic.


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## 299 old timer (Dec 2, 2015)

bimble said:


> Right, and those aren't even artisanal OR organic.



I'd be happy to know that the bag in question was actually made by a local rather than some overpriced Chinese sweatshop crap. I'd be even more happy if the aforesaid local sold some bags thus rendering the possibility that the business may expand and take on local trainees.


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## teuchter (Dec 2, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> In the old days, bunfights on urban used to be ideological. Now - or so it seems from this thread - they're between long term Brixtonites who remember how good and special the place used to be, and apparently more recent arrivals who don't care, or even celebrate, that it's turning into bland shit.


No they're not.


----------



## isvicthere? (Dec 2, 2015)

teuchter said:


> No they're not.



Oh, it's panto season...

OH YES THEY ARE!

Well, *this* one is, anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 2, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> In the old days, bunfights on urban used to be ideological. Now - or so it seems from this thread - they're between long term Brixtonites who remember how good and special the place used to be, and apparently more recent arrivals who don't care, or even celebrate, that it's turning into bland shit.
> 
> Who knew the latter kind of debate would be more rancorous?



Mate, bland people like bland culture.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 2, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> Oh, it's panto season...
> 
> OH YES THEY ARE!
> 
> Well, *this* one is, anyway.


Go on then, give us some poster names for the line-up on each side of your imaginary divide.


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## BigMoaner (Dec 2, 2015)

conversely i know some "long term" brixton residents who thought the place an absolute shit hole and said it was the best thing they ever did leaving!!!

trust me not all "long term brixton residents" will be unwelcoming to the new changes.


----------



## T & P (Dec 2, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> conversely i know some "long term" brixton residents who thought the place an absolute shit hole and said it was the best thing they ever did leaving!!!
> 
> trust me not all "long term brixton residents" will be unwelcoming to the new changes.


Quite. By no means all changes in Brixton have been positive; but many are. And the edgy, diverse Brixton of the 70s and 80s could also by some accounts be an extremely glum place to live. This from that Independent article that got posted here a few days ago:



> "I had to run the gauntlet of gangsters, drug dealers, loafers and everybody else on my way home from school," Lesley remembers. "You learned quickly not to make eye contact. The reggae music never stopped day and night. Sometimes the No 2 bus couldn't make its way through the rabble. You'd only have to inhale on the street to get high from weed. I witnessed many fights. Once, I saw two guys trying to kill each other with swords outside the bookie shop. It was like the Wild West.
> 
> "I remember one afternoon, a guy stoned out of his head trying to drag me into one of those decrepit, dark tenements. I was only rescued by another man who had seen what was taking place. I lived on my nerves but soon I got to recognise all the gangsters, the main players and generally I was left alone. Sometimes I would seek refuge in the Sabarr Bookshop where I could pick up a book and escape the madness around me. I felt so sorry for other residents of our neighbourhood because they felt trapped in their homes. At least the rent was very cheap."


----------



## BigMoaner (Dec 2, 2015)

what would be fascinating and i've never seen it mentioned here is comparing

a) the average wage in say 1995
b) the price/rent of a flat also in 1995
compared to

c) the average wage now
d) the price/rent of a flat now.

because for the past 20 or so years, london has always gone up in house prices, rents, hasn't it? i.e. is it really that much more expensive today than what it's  been in the so called glory years?


----------



## bimble (Dec 2, 2015)




----------



## BigMoaner (Dec 2, 2015)

bimble said:


> View attachment 80331


wow


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## BigMoaner (Dec 2, 2015)

how's it gonna end?


----------



## bimble (Dec 2, 2015)

.


----------



## bimble (Dec 2, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> how's it gonna end?


not with a bang..


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## Tricky Skills (Dec 2, 2015)

With a Pop.


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## Ms T (Dec 2, 2015)

In 1995 I earned about £15k and paid £260 for a room in a shared house. If you plug that into an inflation calculator, it equates to £26k and £460.  I doubt you could rent somewhere for that now. I was also able to buy a flat in December that year (just before a mini-riot in which the 7/11 got burned down) which cost £59k.


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## technical (Dec 2, 2015)

Ms T said:


> In 1995 I earned about £15k and paid £260 for a room in a shared house. If you plug that into an inflation calculator, it equates to £26k and £460.  I doubt you could rent somewhere for that now. I was also able to buy a flat in December that year (just before a mini-riot in which the 7/11 got burned down) which cost £59k.



And that flats probably worth £500k now


----------



## gdubz (Dec 2, 2015)

isvicthere? said:


> In the old days, bunfights on urban used to be ideological. Now - or so it seems from this thread - they're between long term Brixtonites who remember how good and special the place used to be, and apparently more recent arrivals who don't care, or even celebrate, that it's turning into bland shit.
> 
> Who knew the latter kind of debate would be more rancorous?


Should we draw a line in the sand about recent/not recent so that people can jump in and opine?


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Just had press release for a business that's popping up at Pop Brixton.
> 
> "We need to think before we shop," says their blurb. With one of their handbags costing £205 and a cushion selling for £150, they may well be right.


How much for a cushion? Has it been made from cloth of gold and sewn by virgins?


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## 299 old timer (Dec 5, 2015)

Tricky Skills said:


> With a Pop.



In a green oasis


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## editor (Dec 5, 2015)

299 old timer said:


> In a green oasis


I can imagine that.


----------



## editor (Dec 5, 2015)

Just to make sure that Pop looks like every other Christmas market across the land they've stuck a load of huts in the 'public' space.


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## deadringer (Dec 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Just to make sure that Pop looks like every other Christmas market across the land they've stuck a load of huts in the 'public' space.
> 
> View attachment 80494



What else were you expecting?!


----------



## Dan U (Dec 5, 2015)

editor said:


> Just to make sure that Pop looks like every other Christmas market across the land they've stuck a load of huts in the 'public' space.
> 
> View attachment 80494


Someone somewhere is making a fucking mint out of those huts. For about 1 month a year.


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## editor (Dec 5, 2015)

deadringer said:


> What else were you expecting?!


I was expecting an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything I'd seen before; it’s own world.


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## 299 old timer (Dec 5, 2015)

At least the chippy had some fun


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## Nanker Phelge (Dec 5, 2015)

editor said:


> I was expecting an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything I'd seen before; it’s own world.



Never answer the question. Never. It's not what the people want!!!


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## T & P (Dec 5, 2015)

It is probably worth remembering that from the very beginning, all the plans for this venture, including those the lamented Edible Bus Stop had had a direct involvement in, had always relied on for-profit units to subsidise and support the venue as a whole.

As the cold weather arrives and the numbers of visitors of a primarily outdoor venue can be expected to fall, it is both logical and quite necessary that the venue should seek additional ways to try to attract visitors. This would certainly had been true even if the original plans for the place had come to fruition, and I can't imagine the EBS acting much differently in their need to provide additional support for the venture during the winter months, so I'm not entirely sure what the issue might be here.

Still, this thread was actually in danger of falling out of the first page of the forum, so a welcome bump and another dig at the place to boot..


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## SpamMisery (Dec 5, 2015)

What's wrong with the Christmas market?


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## elmpp (Dec 6, 2015)

Misrepresentative AND unoriginal


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## deadringer (Dec 6, 2015)

SpamMisery said:


> What's wrong with the Christmas market?




it's noninclusive of those who don't or can't afford to celebrate Christmas.

Although there is a celebrated thread advising where you can spend upwards of £30 on a seasonal tree for your lounge so maybe it's not that and just a petty excuse to have another pointless pop at Pop


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## SpamMisery (Dec 6, 2015)

deadringer said:


> it's noninclusive of those who don't or can't afford to celebrate Christmas.
> 
> Although there is a celebrated thread advising where you can spend upwards of £30 on a seasonal tree for your lounge so maybe it's not that and just a petty excuse to have another pointless pop at Pop




Thanks. It's hard to keep up


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 6, 2015)

T & P said:


> This would certainly had been true even if the original plans for the place had come to fruition, and I can't imagine the EBS acting much differently in their need to provide additional support for the venture during the winter months, so I'm not entirely sure what the issue might be here.
> 
> Still, this thread was actually in danger of falling out of the first page of the forum, so a welcome bump and another dig at the place to boot..



You should go and have a chat with EBS before assuming this. They have an arch up at LJ in Ridgway road.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2015)

Gramsci said:


> You should go and have a chat with EBS before assuming this. They have an arch up at LJ in Ridgway road.


Indeed.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 10, 2015)

Co-Pop launched: Future Brixton

Photos and videos by CoPop Forest Trade (@CoPopBrixton) on Twitter


----------



## alfajobrob (Dec 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Co-Pop launched: Future Brixton
> 
> Photos and videos by CoPop Forest Trade (@CoPopBrixton) on Twitter



You trolling


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2015)

snowy_again said:


> Co-Pop launched: Future Brixton
> 
> Photos and videos by CoPop Forest Trade (@CoPopBrixton) on Twitter


Yes, I ran a feature on this 10 days ago 
Co Pop co-operative business to open in Pop Brixton this week


----------



## ddraig (Dec 10, 2015)

Oh dear, haters will have to try again!!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 10, 2015)

editor said:


> Yes, I ran a feature on this 10 days ago
> Co Pop co-operative business to open in Pop Brixton this week



You mean, Pop loathing, bastard!!!


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> You mean, Pop loathing, bastard!!!


And I ran this feature on a new Pop Brixton start up just five days before, and this the day before and this the day before that. And this six days before that.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 10, 2015)

That's just hateful...


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 10, 2015)

Ah, I don't tend to browse the BB site.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 10, 2015)

Anyway, it's good news amidst a world of bland?


----------



## alfajobrob (Dec 10, 2015)

Sorry snowy_again but you are going on ignore. Just a disgrace!


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## clandestino (Dec 15, 2015)

New record shop in Pop Brixton...
Container Records to open in Brixton


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## Mr Retro (Dec 15, 2015)

clandestino said:


> New record shop in Pop Brixton...
> Container Records to open in Brixton


Can we get a bit of a steer? Is this approved as is Pure Vinyl or not?


----------



## clandestino (Dec 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Can we get a bit of a steer? Is this approved as is Pure Vinyl or not?



Hard to tell if it's any good until we see it. I suspect it may be overpriced and aimed at a very different crowd than Pure, which is more like a regular second hand record shop - but who knows? Maybe it'll be amazing. My feeling as someone who buys vinyl pretty regularly is that there's two levels of record shop now, catering to different budgets. I favour the cheaper band, through necessity, and I think this may be the more expensive band, which will do well with another demographic who don't bat an eyelid at spending £20 on a repress of an album you can easily pick up for a quid in a charity shop. Whatever it turns out to be, I think any record shop is a good thing, even if it's out of my league in terms of prices.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Can we get a bit of a steer? Is this approved as is Pure Vinyl or not?


This sneering 'approved' shit is really getting _extraordinarily_ tiresome, and now you look even sillier because I wrote a short piece about this new record store too.
A new vinyl record shop for Brixton: Container Records to open up in Pop Brixton


----------



## Biscuits (Dec 16, 2015)

clandestino said:


> Hard to tell if it's any good until we see it. I suspect it may be overpriced and aimed at a very different crowd than Pure, which is more like a regular second hand record shop - but who knows? Maybe it'll be amazing. My feeling as someone who buys vinyl pretty regularly is that there's two levels of record shop now, catering to different budgets. I favour the cheaper band, through necessity, and I think this may be the more expensive band, which will do well with another demographic who don't bat an eyelid at spending £20 on a repress of an album you can easily pick up for a quid in a charity shop. Whatever it turns out to be, I think any record shop is a good thing, even if it's out of my league in terms of prices.



Unless you're looking for an obscure Neil  Diamond album, the best of the Carpenters or some 90s Jungle music then you'll be hard pressed to find much to your tastes at charity shops these days.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 16, 2015)

editor said:


> This sneering 'approved' shit is really getting _extraordinarily_ tiresome, and now you look even sillier because I wrote a short piece about this new record store too.
> A new vinyl record shop for Brixton: Container Records to open up in Pop Brixton


Not as effusive as Pure Vinyl so I'm going to go with "qualified approval".


----------



## 299 old timer (Dec 16, 2015)

Biscuits said:


> Unless you're looking for an obscure Sacha Distel album, the best of Mrs Mills or some 90s handbag House music then you'll be hard pressed to find much to your tastes at charity shops these days.



Fixed


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2015)

Mr Retro said:


> Not as effusive as Pure Vinyl so I'm going to go with "qualified approval".


Grow up, ffs.


----------



## Maharani (Dec 16, 2015)

Biscuits said:


> Unless you're looking for an obscure Neil  Diamond album, the best of the Carpenters or some 90s Jungle music then you'll be hard pressed to find much to your tastes at charity shops these days.


I find loads in charity shops.


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2015)

The Quietus mention Pop in their yearly round up:


> One of the biggest stories of 2015 was the continuing disappearance of music venues under a pincer assault of noise complaints and gentrification. Ed Gillett argues that the pop-up 'experience' guff that comes in their wake is no replacement, and looks at possible solutions to the crisis





> Near where I live in South London, a disused space originally earmarked for the “Grow Brixton" project and intended to focus on community groups and environmental sustainability, was launched earlier this year having been rebranded as _Pop: Brixton_, now run in conjunction with property developers The Collective and hosting product launches for Adidas.
> 
> Pop have since been granted permission to redevelop a multi-storey car park in Peckham, previously home to Frank’s Bar and the Bold Tendencies arts organisation.
> 
> ...


The Quietus | Opinion | Wreath Lectures | The Near-Death Of Raves: The Fate Of Independent Music Venues In 2015


----------



## clandestino (Dec 16, 2015)

Biscuits said:


> Unless you're looking for an obscure Neil  Diamond album, the best of the Carpenters or some 90s Jungle music then you'll be hard pressed to find much to your tastes at charity shops these days.



You're obviously looking in the wrong shops.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2015)

clandestino said:


> You're obviously looking in the wrong shops.



My last vinyl purchase from a charity shop was Killing Joke's live 10" album "Ha!". That was from the BHF shop in Streatham, where they often don't have *any* Carpenters albums!


----------



## clandestino (Dec 16, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> My last vinyl purchase from a charity shop was Killing Joke's live 10" album "Ha!". That was from the BHF shop in Streatham, where they often don't have *any* Carpenters albums!



That was the shop I was thinking of too. Not super cheap, but some good stuff in there. Can easily pick up a good album for three or four quid.


----------



## technical (Dec 19, 2015)

Just back from my first ever visit to pop. Had a kids disco on there this afternoon which was fun for my 6 yr old. 

I quite liked it - all the food places seem like micro-businesses and the food was great


----------



## Winot (Dec 19, 2015)

Don't like the new roof - obv makes sense in the winter but makes it a bit claustrophobic imo.


----------



## gdubz (Dec 19, 2015)

technical said:


> Just back from my first ever visit to pop. Had a kids disco on there this afternoon which was fun for my 6 yr old.
> 
> I quite liked it - all the food places seem like micro-businesses and the food was great


How did your 6 year old rate it on the "imagine a green oasis vs what it actually is" scale? Out of the mouths of babes etc..


----------



## technical (Dec 19, 2015)

Well I thought our discussion was pretty detailed when it was about whether Stevie Wonder or Michael Jackson was better to dance to but we didn't move on to the origins of pop (brixton).

FWIW i think the whole place is part of the effects of gentrification rather than the cause. But this is all because of much wider London property trends. The people I spoke to and interacted with today all seemed part of very small scale businesses and the overall atmosphere I thought was very good


----------



## leanderman (Dec 19, 2015)

technical said:


> The whole place is part of the effects of gentrification rather than the cause. But this is all because of much wider London property trends. The people I spoke to and interacted with today all seemed part of very small scale businesses and the overall atmosphere I thought was very good



Less of the non-ideology please!


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2015)

It all feels a bit claustrophobic under the green oasis's new roof if you ask me.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 13, 2016)

Pop Brixton ("that thing with the metal boxes") came up in a discussion with some of my neighbours earlier today. They had been in briefly with their kids.

They had no strong opinions. Neither impressed nor outraged. Said it was a bit like lots of other things in London.

I said that it had been getting a lot of criticism from some quarters and that apparently a lot of people were angry about it.

They seemed totally unaware of this (and asked why).

Just leaving this here as a contribution to the ongoing representative survey of the views of the local community.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jan 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> They had no strong opinions. Neither impressed nor outraged. Said it was a bit like lots of other things in London.



isn't one of the criticisms of Pop that it is just another trendy shopping/eating/drinking venue rather than the community led green oasis initially proposed.......I hope you put them straight on that


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2016)

"Imagine a green oasis..."


----------



## Manter (Jan 29, 2016)

If it upsets you so very very much, stop going in!


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2016)

Manter said:


> If it upsets you so very very much, stop going in!


Ah, but sometimes, when it all gets a bit much, I like to imagine myself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. 

Besides, some friends of mine work there. They're not particularly enthusiastic about the place either.


----------



## elmpp (Jan 29, 2016)

Yet they work there. Your shit is so tedious


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 29, 2016)

.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 29, 2016)

hey i think that picture is one of the more flattering ones. if i was out on the piss with mates, that'd be a nice civil place to start the evening, ending in tears at 8 am the next day with sores on my mouth and having lost my wallet.


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2016)

elmpp said:


> Yet they work there. Your shit is so tedious


What the fuck are you on about? Loads of people work in places they don't like, you simplistic fool.


----------



## alcopop (Jan 29, 2016)

elmpp said:


> Yet they work there. Your shit is so tedious


It's bizarre & tedious. Almost a compulsion to go on and on and on about pop.


----------



## shifting gears (Jan 29, 2016)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you on about? Loads of people work in places they don't like, you simplistic fool.



Loads of people work in places they actively HATE, just to get by. They might despise the management, the business model, the modus operandi, but they have no choice. Wage slavery, pure and simple.

That's what's lost on these pricks above.


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## elmpp (Jan 29, 2016)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you on about? Loads of people work in places they don't like, you simplistic fool.


My point is you're once again resorting to anonymous word-on-the-street quotes to back up your tedious school boy shit


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2016)

elmpp said:


> My point is you're once again resorting to anonymous word-on-the-street quotes to back up your tedious school boy shit


Nope. I'm not going to indulge you in yet another of your pointless, spiteful, personal attacks. You contribute nothing and only seek to disrupt threads with your malicious obsession. Take a few days off.


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2016)

shifting gears said:


> Loads of people work in places they actively HATE, just to get by. They might despise the management, the business model, the modus operandi, but they have no choice. Wage slavery, pure and simple.
> 
> That's what's lost on these pricks above.


I've worked in jobs where I've hated every single thing about the job, starting from the second I clock in. I've hated the work, the bosses, the hours, the supervisors and the conditions - and my experiences are hardly uncommon. 

I'm forever grateful that I'm currently doing work I enjoy, even if the pay is shite.


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## Mr Retro (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm surprised people don't like working in Pop given its all start ups. It's more like people following a dream I would have thought?


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm surprised people don't like working in Pop given its all start ups. It's more like people following a dream I would have thought?


The owners may be following their dreams, and I'm sure they're enjoying the ride, but why on earth do you think it's going to be any different to any other job for those who are just employees?

I'm sure some might love it there, but my friends aren't exactly living the dream.

That's not to say that there's not worse jobs in Brixton, mind.


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## discobastard (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm surprised people don't like working in Pop given its all start ups. It's more like people following a dream I would have thought?


It can't be that bad working there.  The times I've been in (usually Saturday afternoons just wandering past), nobody seems to be that busy.  If you can get paid to hang around reading a book in a nice seat and occasionally pouring a glass of wine for the odd customer then it can't be _that_ bad.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2016)

discobastard said:


> It can't be that bad working there.  The times I've been in (usually Saturday afternoons just wandering past), nobody seems to be that busy.  If you can get paid to hang around reading a book in a nice seat and occasionally pouring a glass of wine for the odd customer then it can't be _that_ bad.


In my experience of low paid jobs, working in really quiet places is actually worse. It makes the day _really _drag.


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## CH1 (Jan 30, 2016)

editor said:


> In my experience of low paid jobs, working in really quiet places is actually worse. It makes the day _really _drag.


I agree with that. My most bizarrely quiet job was when as a student drop-out in Manchester I got a job as an art gallery attendant in a small council-run art gallery in Didsbury, a suburb of South Manchester comparable with let us say Penge.

They had an extensive collection of Paul Nash and Turner watercolours and one Turner oil paining - Heidelberg Sunset.

The museum was so little known that sometimes we might get 2 visitors - a week!

This was great for me because I used to do Maths revision etc with a view to going back to university - which I did manage. But the foreman (yes we had a foreman and three attendants - this was pre Thatcher and all that) was driven mad, and had to occupy his OCD by constantly polishing the brasswork.

Thank you editor - nothing worse than just going through the motions, especially when then motions grind to a complete halt.


----------



## T & P (Jan 30, 2016)

Well, given that some retail units in Pop are busier than others, and the site itself is also busier at certain times of the week/ months of the year, I would imagine there is in fact a wide spectrum of working environment experiences ranging from the boring to the pretty satisfying among the people who work at Pop Brixton.

So just like anyone else who works in the retail industry in Brixton, then, whether in one of the arcades, in the shops on the high street or the bigger department stores.

I myself would rather work in some of the units at Pop than at any of the supermarkets, all of the fast food joints, many of the restaurants, the department stores, and quite a few other businesses found in Brixton, come to think of it.


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## se5 (Jan 30, 2016)

I see Sadiq Khan (the future Mayor of London?) went to Pop on Thursday


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## editor (Jan 30, 2016)

It is indeed great to hear how Pop Brixton is helping small businesses like the Cineworld Group PLC (revenue 2014: 619m, profit £79m). Got to look out for the little guys!


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## Mr Retro (Jan 30, 2016)

editor said:


> The owners may be following their dreams, and I'm sure they're enjoying the ride, but why on earth do you think it's going to be any different to any other job for those who are just employees?
> 
> I'm sure some might love it there, but my friends aren't exactly living the dream.


Fair enough. 

If I had sunk a lot, maybe everything, into what would be my dream and I had employees that are not "particularly enthusiastic" I'd have them out of there so fucking fast they wouldn't be able to say green oasis.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> If I had sunk a lot, maybe everything, into what would be my dream and I had employees that are not "particularly enthusiastic" I'd have them out of there so fucking fast they wouldn't be able to say green oasis.


I think that attitude speaks volumes of your personality and your politics.

You're talking about low paid shop workers here. People near the bottom of the pile. People who haven't the luxury of going around chasing their dreams but are more preoccupied with mundane things like trying to survive and feeding themselves and their families.

So long as the customers feel that they're courteous and pleasant to deal on the shopfloor and they're good enough at selling goods, you'd still sack them on the spot for failing to be sufficiently _wildly enthusiastic_ about you making money for yourself?

Disgusting.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 30, 2016)

editor said:


> So long as the customers feel that they're courteous and pleasant to deal on the shopfloor and they're good enough at selling goods,


Interesting that you recognised the need to add this qualification to your ad hominem attack on Mr Retro. I doubt that many would associate your definition with his reference to "not particularly enthusiastic."

To be honest, I don't see why we should be expected to indulge you in yet another of your pointless, spiteful, personal attacks. You only seek to disrupt threads with your malicious obsession. How about taking a few days off?


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 30, 2016)

editor said:


> So long as the customers feel that they're courteous and pleasant to deal on the shopfloor and they're good enough at selling goods, you'd still sack them on the spot for failing to be sufficiently _wildly enthusiastic_ about you making money for yourself?


As Rushy correctly pointed out, you are twisting my words to make your point. So dishonest. Disgusting.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 30, 2016)

none of you shitehawks ever do that with editor's posts do you! oh noooo
ffs


----------



## T & P (Jan 30, 2016)




----------



## aka (Jan 30, 2016)

Nice one geezer.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> As Rushy correctly pointed out, you are twisting my words to make your point. So dishonest. Disgusting.


Re-quoted for Victorian Mill Owner Watch: 


> I had employees that are not "particularly enthusiastic" I'd have them out of there so fucking fast they wouldn't be able to say green oasis.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

se5 said:


> I see Sadiq Khan (the future Mayor of London?) went to Pop on Thursday




Good old Lambeth Labour! I'm betting Hopkins was there, getting photographed with his grinning rictus of a phizzog next to Khan's.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> If I had sunk a lot, maybe everything, into what would be my dream and I had employees that are not "particularly enthusiastic" I'd have them out of there so fucking fast they wouldn't be able to say green oasis.



Nice.
What a *decent* employer might do is have a word with them, but you would go straight for the sack - which is apposite, given what a shit-sack you are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

T & P said:


>



So what you're saying is that you're a tired old geezer who's likely to spout off an eruption at a set time, regardless of the subject?
How very honest of you!


----------



## T & P (Jan 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So what you're saying is that you're a tired old geezer who's likely to spout off an eruption at a set time, regardless of the subject?
> How very honest of you!


I wasn't referring to myself but you're on the right tracks. The clue is in the name of the geyser in question. I'll admit it can be applied to various contributors as well as certain phrases/topics that can be found in this thread


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 30, 2016)

If You personified "Violent Pandas" humour it would live in the Deep South. It would drive a truck. It would wear a wife beater t-shirt. It would sit at the bar boorishly giving it's option. Nobody would be laughing at it.


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2016)

It's quite depressing the amount of Tories who now post here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> If You personified "Violent Pandas" humour it would live in the Deep South. It would drive a truck. It would wear a wife beater t-shirt. It would sit at the bar boorishly giving it's option. Nobody would be laughing at it.



Quite a few Urbanites who know me "in real life" would be laughing at you, if they read the petulant kack you spout.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

editor said:


> It's quite depressing the amount of Tories who now post here.



Landlords and Tories, sometimes with both abominations inhabiting the same poster!
The worst thing is that they often kid themselves that they're social-democratic types, even as they apply the thumbscrews...


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 30, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nice.
> What a *decent* employer might do is have a word with them, but you would go straight for the sack - which is apposite, given what a shit-sack you are.


editor "likes" this. If he was called a shit sack he would ban the person who did so.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> It's quite depressing the amount of Tories who now post here.


Best when it's an "echo chamber".


----------



## Chilavert (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> It's quite depressing the amount of Tories who now post here.


You've let yourself down here.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 31, 2016)

Lol, you can't say bad things about Tories  Not even on your own board, ed!


----------



## Rushy (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> It's quite depressing the amount of Tories who now post here.


This thread is about Pop Brixton. If anyone has any issues with the lack of ideological conformity on Urban, open a thread in the feedback forum rather than trying to stir things up with a big fat stick here. Thanks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> editor "likes" this. If he was called a shit sack he would ban the person who did so.



I've called him worse.
When I do it, it's straightforward criticism for a single actual fuck-up, and doesn't get repeated _ad nauseam_ whenever he says anything that mildly pisses me off - which is what you do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Best when it's an "echo chamber".



A situation where no straightforward, heartfelt challenges are made to people who have a different ideology to you, isn't much of a situation at all.
And before anyone says "but elmpp got banned for challenging editor", he didn't. He just cranked out the latest of a series of turds. All his turds have the same theme. His ban was the result of him repeating a formula he's previously been banned for. You should be congratulating editor on his consistent behaviour!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

Rushy said:


> This thread is about Pop Brixton. If anyone has any issues with the lack of ideological conformity on Urban, open a thread in the feedback forum rather than trying to stir things up with a big fat stick here. Thanks.



An honest broker would have attributed those words to their original author.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> editor "likes" this. If he was called a shit sack he would ban the person who did so.


There is no ruling on people liking a post here. People can like they want. 

Of course, there is no way for you to know if someone is liking all of the contents of the post in question, or just one part of the post.

To clear things up, I was liking this bit which revealed the kind of Tory boss you are: _"What a *decent* employer might do is have a word with them, but you would go straight for the sack."_

Oh, and I've been called far, far worse things than a 'shitsack' here without anyone being banned. In fact, I'm regularly having unpleasant and usually unprovoked personal slurs thrown my way every week in this very forum yet the sacks of shit posting them up and all here. Sorry to burst your self indignant bubble, there.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

Chilavert said:


> You've let yourself down here.


I've seen a fairly hefty lurch to the right here on this forum and it depresses the fuck out of me. Sorry if stating that that disappoints you so.


----------



## T & P (Jan 31, 2016)

Well, if there is one thing we can all agree on, is that post #5381 has fully achieved its objective now.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

T & P said:


> Well, if there is one thing we can all agree on, is that post #5381 has fully achieved its objective now.


Ya, traffic goes down, editor trolls his own boards. Sad.


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Ya, traffic goes down, editor trolls his own forum. Sad.


In the sad post stakes I reckon you win, over all of editor's pop brixton bile put together. If people were denied the right to have a favourite focus for directing all their anger at where would we be i ask you. This forum would turn really nasty if it wasn't for Pop Brixton, and Casually Red.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> To clear things up, I was liking this bit which revealed the kind of Tory boss you are: _"What a *decent* employer might do is have a word with them, but you would go straight for the sack."_


Which of course is once again jumping to a incorrect conclusion. You or google know all "violent panda" have no idea what kind of boss I am. You also have no idea or experience of being a boss. So I'm not sure why you feel qualified to spout opinion on experiences about which you know nothing


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Ya, traffic goes down, editor trolls his own boards. Sad.


You don't even understand what trolling means, and you're clearly blissfully ignorant of the the damage you and your like have caused to this forum with your constant, relentless campaign of vindictive sneering and belittlement.

Please don't bother responding to any of my posts.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> In the sad post stakes I reckon you win, over all of editor's pop brixton bile put together. If people were denied the right to have a favourite focus for directing all their anger at where would we be i ask you. This forum would turn really nasty if it wasn't for Pop Brixton, and Casually Red.


I'm sure that made sense in your head before you typed it out.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Please don't bother responding to any of my posts.


Put me on ignore then


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm sure that made sense in your head before you typed it out.


probably. Can't remember now.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Which of course is once again jumping to a incorrect conclusion. You or google know all "violent panda" have no idea what kind of boss I am.


Your disgusting  "instantly sack them!" statement speaks for itself. It was indefensible. Pure Tory.

*Set to mutual ignore for the benefit of the forum


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm pretty sure urban (including Brixton forum) has never intended to be _everything for everyone_ - though ed might correct me if I'm wrong in that. It's got no commercial obligation to be impartial and if anything, urban's strong political and social ethos and values have always been entirely upfront, forming as it did out of various left and radical political movements in the 90s. It's the work of Ed, of a volunteer mod/techie team, and those who donate money to help keep it running.

The entitlement that I've seen take over the Brixton forum the last few years is really quite astonishing from a few - seriously, telling ed to take a few days off?! It's a great place on the internet which remains an alternative to most of the advert filled, right-wing biased, commercially driven forums/sites out there. Just have some fucking respect, even if you don't always agree with ed or the general urban raison d'être.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'm pretty sure urban (including Brixton forum) has never intended to be _everything for everyone_ - though ed might correct me if I'm wrong in that. It's got no commercial obligation to be impartial and if anything, urban's strong political and social ethos and values have always been entirely upfront, forming as it did out of various left and radical political movements in the 90s. It's the work of Ed, of a volunteer mod/techie team, and those who donate money to help keep it running.
> 
> The entitlement that I've seen take over the Brixton forum the last few years is really quite astonishing from a few - seriously, telling ed to take a few days off?! It's a great place on the internet which remains an alternative to most of the advert filled, right-wing biased, commercially driven forums/sites out there. Just have some fucking respect, even if you don't always agree with ed or the general urban raison d'être.


Pretty much spot on - thank you. 

I'd argue that the growing sense of entitlement you speak of is perhaps only really echoing what's happening in the area, and it's hugely depressing to witness.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Your disgusting  "instantly sack them!" statement speaks for itself. It was indefensible. Pure Tory.
> 
> *Set to mutual ignore for the benefit of the forum


Lol  bet you read this! Read the last 2 pages and then see it was you who began replying to my comments, which in turn got you all hot and bothered.  

Your lack of self awareness is staggering.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Lol  bet you read this! Read the last 2 pages and then see it was you who began replying to my comments, which in turn got you all hot and bothered.
> 
> Your lack of self awareness is staggering.


One last reminder just in case you're not understanding how it works.

Enforced mutual ignore is a last, desperate admin measure to stop people continuing to disrupt forums with personal attacks. This means that they DO NOT respond or refer to each other's posts and doing so will result in a warning, eventually leading to a temp ban if they continue.

I hope that makes it very clear. This message was posted as a courtesy.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> One last reminder just in case you're not understanding how it works.
> 
> Enforced mutual ignore is a last, desperate admin measure to stop people continuing to disrupt forums with personal attacks. This means that they DO NOT respond or refer to each other's posts and doing so will result in a warning, eventually leading to a temp ban if they continue.
> 
> I hope that makes it very clear. This message was posted as a courtesy.


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


>


Nothing to do with Pop Brixton but.. I just read this. Online comments: is the space below the line too toxic or can they be fixed?
I like it here because you can call each other a cunt all day long if you want but there are a bunch of people working hard to try to keep the place liveable by trying to stop endless pointless personal attacks, outright bigotry etc.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> Nothing to do with Pop Brixton but.. I just read this. Online comments: is the space below the line too toxic or can they be fixed?
> I like it here because you can call each other a cunt all day long if you want but there are a bunch of people working hard to try to keep the place liveable by trying to stop endless pointless personal attacks, outright bigotry etc.


In the last few pages have there really been personal attacks in your opinion?


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> In the last few pages have there really been personal attacks in your opinion?


Looked like it to me. (Your lack of self awareness is staggering etc) Not going to get sucked in though if that's ok.


----------



## Winot (Jan 31, 2016)

I tell it like it is. 

You are undiplomatic. 

He makes needless personal attacks.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jan 31, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> The entitlement that I've seen take over the Brixton forum the last few years is really quite astonishing



sadly this forum is a reflection of Brixton IRL


----------



## bimble (Jan 31, 2016)

I wonder what will happen up the road here in LJ where 1.6 million has just been awarded with a 20 year deal, plans involving lots of shipping containers and grow spaces. I hope people are as interested in that when it starts taking shape but somehow I doubt it will grab people's attention as much even though its impact will probably be greater, given that ten minutes walk up cold harbour lane is at the moment quite a long way still, in terms of distance from nearest cocktail outlet.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> I wonder what will happen up the road here in LJ where 1.6 million has just been awarded with a 20 year deal, plans involving lots of shipping containers and grow spaces. I hope people are as interested in that when it starts taking shape but somehow I doubt it will grab people's attention as much even though its impact will probably be greater, given that ten minutes walk up cold harbour lane is at the moment quite a long way still, in terms of distance from nearest cocktail outlet.


The stretch of shops along CHL outside the Barrier Block used to seem a world away from Brixton Village, but we've already now got a painfully trendy cocktail bar in residence and a very expensive pizza place, so it's certainly heading Loughborough Junction's way.  (((LJ)))

On an unrelated note, I note that the cultural-cash that is the Chip Shop is basically a bar at night. Went past last night and it looked no different to any other busy Brixton upmarket bar with music, booze, usual crowd etc.


----------



## gdubz (Jan 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> Looked like it to me. (Your lack of self awareness is staggering etc) Not going to get sucked in though if that's ok.


They were probably "ad hominem" - yawn


----------



## han (Jan 31, 2016)

I never thought in a million years that I'd be singing the praises of Wetherspoons as the best and most culturally/ intergenerationally mixed drinking venues in the area, but it has finally come to this, yes. Thank god the Half Moon has been saved, at least.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

han said:


> I never thought in a million years that I'd be singing the praises of Wetherspoons as the best and most culturally/ intergenerationally mixed drinking venues in the area, but it has finally come to this, yes. Thank god the Half Moon has been saved, at least.


With so many boozers being flattened and turned into posh flats and expensive restaurants - and so many of the nu-drinkeries being both unaffordable and/or culturally homogenised - Wetherspoons has indeed become a rare beacon of diversity.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Which of course is once again jumping to a incorrect conclusion. You or google know all "violent panda" have no idea what kind of boss I am.



It's lovely how because someone actually knows stuff, you're so insecure that you have to imply that their knowledge comes from google. Mine actually comes from this thing called "education". 



> You also have no idea or experience of being a boss. So I'm not sure why you feel qualified to spout opinion on experiences about which you know nothing



We know that you're making assumptions as to whether bimble or I have ever been bosses. Just as we know, from your claim that you'd have employees "out of there so fucking fast" for being "not particularly enthusiastic" that you'd either be a shit employer, or are a wanker braggart giving it the biggun. 

Frankly, you're (as usual) all over the place, and trying to cover it up by throwing turds. You're a monkey.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm sure that made sense in your head before you typed it out.



It makes sense to anyone who isn't a turd-chucking monkey.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

han said:


> I never thought in a million years that I'd be singing the praises of Wetherspoons as the best and most culturally/ intergenerationally mixed drinking venues in the area, but it has finally come to this, yes. Thank god the Half Moon has been saved, at least.



IMO 'spoons caught onto a salient fact well before other chains - that drinkers like choice, and not just the choice between ale and lager.
Much as I love Youngs beer, a Youngs pub is nowhere near the (relative) bastion of choice that a branch of 'spoons tends to be.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> If I had sunk a lot, maybe everything, into what would be my dream and I had employees that are not "particularly enthusiastic" I'd have them out of there so fucking fast they wouldn't be able to say green oasis.



_Enthusiasm and dedication to 'my dream' is what's the most important thing if you're gonna work for me. Never mind if you're scraping together enough to pay your astronomical rent on a tiny bedsit and keep your head above water. Don't like it, you can 'get on your bike'._


----------



## 299 old timer (Jan 31, 2016)

As far as I can tell Pop Brixton is just a time biding holding exercise until they build the 18 floor or whatever complex. Am I right?


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> _Enthusiasm and dedication to 'my dream' is what's the most important thing if you're gonna work for me. Never mind if you're scraping together enough to pay your astronomical rent on a tiny bedsit and keep your head above water. Don't like it, you can 'get on your bike'._


More or less correct.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Frankly, you're (as usual) all over the place, and trying to cover it up by throwing turds. You're a monkey.


What am I trying to cover up exactly?

"You're a monkey" lol. The art of the insult is truly dead


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> What am I trying to cover up exactly?



The fact that you're all over the place,as I say in the part of the sentence before "and trying to cover it up".



> "You're a monkey" lol. The art of the insult is truly dead



Not really. Anything decent insult-wise would be wasted on you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2016)

299 old timer said:


> As far as I can tell Pop Brixton is just a time biding holding exercise until they build the 18 floor or whatever complex. Am I right?



Or, even more cynically, a holding exercise that will - the council hope - help jack up the price of the land on which developers might wish to build such a complex. If nothing else, Pop is illustrative of the sort of exercises local authorities have undertaken in the last decade or so to promote their _locales _*and* the price of their holdings.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not really. Anything decent insult-wise would be wasted on you.


You could have googled one


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 31, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> IMO 'spoons caught onto a salient fact well before other chains - that drinkers like choice, and not just the choice between ale and lager.
> Much as I love Youngs beer, a Youngs pub is nowhere near the (relative) bastion of choice that a branch of 'spoons tends to be.



Yep - whatever the downsides of 'spoons there's nowhere else you can get such a good choice of beer at anything like that price.


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 31, 2016)

Food is not bad too. We go to the heath one a lot as a family, costs about 25 quid for three including drinks.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 31, 2016)

bimble said:


> I wonder what will happen up the road here in LJ where 1.6 million has just been awarded with a 20 year deal, plans involving lots of shipping containers and grow spaces. I hope people are as interested in that when it starts taking shape but somehow I doubt it will grab people's attention as much even though its impact will probably be greater, given that ten minutes walk up cold harbour lane is at the moment quite a long way still, in terms of distance from nearest cocktail outlet.



The word is plans. How it will end up is another matter. As you know the Council tenants on the Loughborough Estate are wary of this project.

Also I had the Council tenants on the Estate tell me that one thing they do not want is another Pop placed on what they see as there patch.

I was at the Rec today talking to people about the Brixton Rec Users Group. Had a chat with one guy who is concerned about the Rec. He went on about how Brixton is changing for the worse. He grew up in Brixton. When he was young his mum used to take him shopping in what was then the Granville Arcade ( now the Brixton Village). He hates what its like now as well as Pop.

He then went on about the shops in the arches that are under threat.

His view is that this New Labour Council , like New Labour in general, do not support the working class.

His view is not unusual in the ordinary people around LJ and Brixton I meet.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Food is not bad too. We go to the heath one a lot as a family, costs about 25 quid for three including drinks.


Actual 'affordable' food!


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## brixtonblade (Jan 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Actual 'affordable' food!


It's pretty much all meat isn't it? Was in the crown and sceptre and was struggling to find something non-meaty. 
It is good value but that'd put me off going back to eat


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## leanderman (Jan 31, 2016)

brixtonblade said:


> It's pretty much all meat isn't it? Was in the crown and sceptre and was struggling to find something non-meaty.
> It is good value but that'd put me off going back to eat



Yep. I stick to the beers there. Amazing selection. Crazy prices.


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## soupdragon (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> If I had sunk a lot, maybe everything, into what would be my dream and I had employees that are not "particularly enthusiastic" I'd have them out of there so fucking fast they wouldn't be able to say green oasis.



You mean your dream of running a Pret a Manger franchise?

"And it has to be real. ‘The authenticity of being happy is important,’ a Pret manager tells the _Telegraph_, ‘customers pick up on that.’ It isn’t clear which is the more demanding, authenticity or performance, being it or faking it, but in either case it’s difficult to believe that there isn’t something demoralising, for Pret workers perhaps more than most in the high street, not only in having their energies siphoned off by customers, but also in having to sustain the tension between the performance of relentless enthusiasm at work and the experience of straitened material circumstances outside it. ‘Henceforth,’ as Carl Cederström and Peter Fleming put it in their recent jeremiad _Dead Man Working_ (Zero, £9.99), ‘our authenticity is no longer a retreat from the mandatory fakeness’ of the workplace, ‘but the very medium through which work squeezes the life out of us’."​


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> You mean your dream of running a Pret a Manger franchise?
> 
> "And it has to be real. ‘The authenticity of being happy is important,’ a Pret manager tells the _Telegraph_, ‘customers pick up on that.’ It isn’t clear which is the more demanding, authenticity or performance, being it or faking it, but in either case it’s difficult to believe that there isn’t something demoralising, for Pret workers perhaps more than most in the high street, not only in having their energies siphoned off by customers, but also in having to sustain the tension between the performance of relentless enthusiasm at work and the experience of straitened material circumstances outside it. ‘Henceforth,’ as Carl Cederström and Peter Fleming put it in their recent jeremiad _Dead Man Working_ (Zero, £9.99), ‘our authenticity is no longer a retreat from the mandatory fakeness’ of the workplace, ‘but the very medium through which work squeezes the life out of us’."​


Pret don't sell franchises.


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## shifting gears (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> More or less correct.



Scum.


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## soupdragon (Jan 31, 2016)

Well you could still apply to be a branch manager?


----------



## shifting gears (Jan 31, 2016)

For posterity.... Scum.


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## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

shifting gears said:


> Scum.


Right on pillock


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## shifting gears (Jan 31, 2016)

Haha the beauty of screenshots... It's all there for all to see... Let it all hang out baby

Scum.


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## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

shifting gears said:


> Haha the beauty of screenshots... It's all there for all to see... Let it all hang out baby
> 
> Scum.


You seem inordinately pleased with a simple screen shot. Do you think I was going to erase it? You virtue signalling fool


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## shifting gears (Jan 31, 2016)

Nah it's just beautiful cos it marks you out as the true Cunt you are... It's just perfect in every way; like a glorious fluffy cloud on a summer morning; like being handed a perfectly brewed cuppa with a bad hangover.... Like a child of Thatcher thoroughly exposed on a message board... 

Likesay, beautiful


----------



## Mr Retro (Jan 31, 2016)

shifting gears said:


> Nah it's just beautiful cos it marks you out as the true Cunt you are... It's just perfect in every way; like a glorious fluffy cloud on a summer morning; like being handed a perfectly brewed cuppa with a bad hangover.... Like a child of Thatcher thoroughly exposed on a message board...
> 
> Likesay, beautiful


"Virtue Signalling - Saying you love or hate something to show off what a virtuous person you are"


----------



## shifting gears (Jan 31, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> "Virtue Signalling - Saying you love or hate something to show off what a virtuous person you are"



Being a Cunt is more simple - you're just being a Cunt.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 1, 2016)

shifting gears said:


> Being a Cunt is more simple - you're just being a Cunt.



More or less correct.


----------



## deadringer (Feb 1, 2016)

At the risk of getting the thread back on track...... Had a few hours until dinner last night and was ravenous, so inspired by the revival of this thread I popped in for some delicious burritos and a pint. Having not been for a few months I was expecting it to be largely empty, but was pleasantly surprised to find plenty of people of all age ranges scattered about chatting. One of the trades told me that Sunday days are very busy and that the evening was nice as it was a bit more chilled, was glad to hear that as I did worry that the winter months would hit trade pretty bad.


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## editor (Feb 4, 2016)

Ah, it's a global project too!



> What was it that attracted you to set up shop in Pop Brixton?
> 
> The pioneering and unusual aspects of Pop attracted us immediately, as well as the community project which makes of Pop Brixton not only a retail islet but a global project that is fully integrated in its environment, with collaborations with the locals and Brixton life in general.
> 
> Pop Brixton


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## elmpp (Feb 4, 2016)

Yawn


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## Rushy (Feb 4, 2016)

I don't understand the editorial criticism. It is clear from their sentence that they mean global as in "relating to the whole of" in the context of Brixton rather than worldwide. It's a valid use of the word even if it is, only perhaps, a little less common in colloquial use. 

Using grammatically correct but "unfashionable" words is pretty normal amongst people speaking English as a second or third language. I'm not sure that it really merits taking the piss out of. Brits are way behind their European friends when it comes to languages on the whole.


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## CH1 (Feb 4, 2016)

editor said:


> Ah, it's a global project too!


It is a global project for those who find the whole global world in their navel.


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## editor (Feb 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> It is a global project for those who find the whole global world in their navel.


Well, it has already enjoyed a hugely branded "takeover" from one of the globe's biggest sports multinationals and now houses a screen from Europe's second biggest multinational cinema operator...


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## T & P (Feb 4, 2016)

How _very _dare they!


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## CH1 (Feb 4, 2016)

T & P said:


> How _very _dare they!


Look this is about hijacking. 
No doubt you may feel that in voting Labour in 1997 you had not expected the NHS to be set up for privatisation - a process greatly speeded up by "The Coalition" who had said the NHS was safe in their hands.

And yet the NHS looks outwardly like an NHS. You would never dream there were PFI contracts collapsing at Adenbrooks, Huntingdon and Barts. But try getting a GP appointment! 

Likewise as editor says try recusing yourself in the Pop Brixton Oasis. It might be an Oasis of Pop, but it was supposed to be an oasis of greenery.

What we turn out to have is less Eden Project and more Hogarth Gin Lane


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## T & P (Feb 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Look this is about hijacking.
> No doubt you may feel that in voting Labour in 1997 you had not expected the NHS to be set up for privatisation - a process greatly speeded up by "The Coalition" who had said the NHS was safe in their hands.
> 
> And yet the NHS looks outwardly like an NHS. You would never dream there were PFI contracts collapsing at Adenbrooks, Huntingdon and Barts. But try getting a GP appointment!
> ...



Well I would venture that the finished product not being quite as green as some people might have imagined from those two now infamous and endlessly paraded words that appeared on an early draft about the project does not quite compare to the ransacking of the NHS. Never mind that from the very beginning there had always been plans for commercial ventures to operate out of the place, or that the much maligned short tenures by outside corporations actually resulted in such affronts to the community as free sports equipment for kids, and cash donations.

But regardless of where one stands on the importance or lack thereof of judging a project on the perceived difference between the finished product and a vague vision encompassed in a phrase found on an early draft, the issue has certainly been mentioned and discussed many, _many_ times before- not fewer than 134, in fact. There is little new to add to that particular argument, and the phrase now just gets paraded out and used as a beating stick, or likely as not when some feel the forum had been a little quiet of late and could do with some action.

Maybe it is time to give the green oasis angle a bit of a rest now.


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## leanderman (Feb 4, 2016)

T & P said:


> Maybe it is time to give the green oasis angle a bit of a rest now.



It's also winter. Not much of a growing season.


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## SpamMisery (Feb 4, 2016)

We could always argue about the missing fork and spade; we haven't discussed that for a while.


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## editor (Feb 4, 2016)

leanderman said:


> It's also winter. Not much of a growing season.


Things do grow in winter, you know. Or they could just import another loads of potted plants like last time. 

As it is, you'll probably see more greenery next to an office desk.


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## cuppa tee (Feb 4, 2016)

leanderman said:


> It's also winter. Not much of a growing season.



they've got a fuck off big greenhouse


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## leanderman (Feb 4, 2016)

The place certainly seems to be thriving.


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## leanderman (Feb 4, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> they've got a fuck off big greenhouse



Which, last I checked, was being used to grow things.


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## cuppa tee (Feb 4, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Which, last I checked, was being used to grow things.


 
what things ?


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## leanderman (Feb 4, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> what things ?



See up thread. Aubergine etc


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## editor (Feb 4, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Which, last I checked, was being used to grow things.


Inbetween all the chairs and tables set aside for boozing and eating, there is such a tiny amount of stuff being grown that you'd be having a total laugh to describe it as looking like a greenhouse.

It's a basically a bar/socialising area with a few potted green bits. But if you like, I'll take a photo and we can compare it with a photo of an actual greenhouse.

Here's what could be grown: 
Vegetables to grow in winter: a how-to guide | Permaculture Magazine
Top 10 vegetables to grow over winter | Thompson & Morgan
Winter Gardening Greenhouse


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2016)

Someone needs to post up a fuzzy promo image from the orignal competition immediately so that we can look at this freshly raised issue objectively and scientifically.


----------



## Mr Retro (Feb 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The place certainly seems to be thriving.


Yes, good business plan put in place, good project planning to deliver, good places to visit, good promotion, in general a well thought enterprise albeit without a massive fork and space on the roof.


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## soupdragon (Feb 5, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Yes, good business plan put in place, good project planning to deliver, good places to visit, good promotion, in general a well thought enterprise albeit without a massive fork and space on the roof.


Definitely. That's just the way to talk at your interview at Pret a Manger. "Put in place" is a particularly nice touch. Make sure you say something about what you're "passionate" about too.


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## willowmoon (Feb 5, 2016)

I love pop Brixton, i really want a shop in there


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## Mr Retro (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> Definitely. That's just the way to talk at your interview at Pret a Manger. "Put in place" is a particularly nice touch. Make sure you say something about what you're "passionate" about too.


I'm just thinking of the half assed attempt at something similar to Pop in the "community friendly" Granville market where nothing that comes near any business nous was in evidence and it lasted 3 weeks or so. 

What happened to the stall holders who committed to this market? What was the cost to them of taking part? Were they compensated for losses? 

But it's better to take the piss out of somebody who knows a thing or 2 about running something successfully and support abject failure


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## Mr Retro (Feb 5, 2016)

willowmoon said:


> I love pop Brixton, i really want a shop in there


I don't blame you. You'd benefit from a well run space with massive footfall.


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## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

willowmoon said:


> I love pop Brixton, i really want a shop in there


Better start saving your pennies then. Lots of them.


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## willowmoon (Feb 5, 2016)

I want to have a pie n mash shop


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## deadringer (Feb 5, 2016)

willowmoon said:


> I want to have a pie n mash shop



If you're not from Brixton pretend you are. It'll save you a hell of a lot of nasty spiteful comments.


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## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

willowmoon said:


> I want to have a pie n mash shop


Pricey working class food in Pop Brixton?  You'd be bang on trend with that, but make sure you're selling 'artisinal' pie and mash!

Extra points for associating your business with black hip hop heroes.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

deadringer said:


> If you're not from Brixton pretend you are. It'll save you a hell of a lot of nasty spiteful comments.


Which nasty spiteful comments? Where?


----------



## T & P (Feb 5, 2016)

deadringer said:


> If you're not from Brixton pretend you are. It'll save you a hell of a lot of nasty spiteful comments.


It'd be no use. Some people have a built-in Brixtonradar that allows them to know whether soneone is from Brixton just by looking at them.


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## Lucy Fur (Feb 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> It'd be no use. Some people have a built-in Brixtonradar that allows them to know whether soneone is from Brixton just by looking at them.


A gutless snipe, say who you mean or fuck off.


----------



## soupdragon (Feb 5, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm just thinking of the half assed attempt at something similar to Pop in the "community friendly" Granville market where nothing that comes near any business nous was in evidence and it lasted 3 weeks or so.
> 
> What happened to the stall holders who committed to this market? What was the cost to them of taking part? Were they compensated for losses?
> 
> But it's better to take the piss out of somebody who knows a thing or 2 about running something successfully and support abject failure



Don’t get me wrong Mr Pretro (if I can call you that ) – there’s nothing wrong with a "well run" suburban food court, even one with a hipster / favela-chic / yawn / twist … Not sure I think Brixton is the place for it – it feels a bit more like Merton Abbey Mills really, but I think you may so admire “business nous” that you simply enjoy that – what I don’t like is that it’s like the marketing has become the thing itself. I like a crepe - but does that entail the crepe sellers having a “spirit animal”? Everything is so self-consciously interesting that it all feels a bit over done, and you start to feel like it might all taste of melted cheese. What I used to like about Brixton was the businesses, the food, the stalls were just normal (you can in fact still find pockets of it here and there if you’re lucky) – just things you'd stumble across that people happened to know how to do well because that's what they did. But that was a legacy of when neighbourhoods weren't over-hyped fantasy commodities but were just strange organic collective things which emerged out of how people are naturally weird and they have to live and work and deal with stuff. Now they make a sandwich and it's like a spiritual journey. It's like eating food with a PR strategy as its filling. I guess you enjoy that.


----------



## T & P (Feb 5, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> A gutless snipe, say who you mean or fuck off.


How could I do so without falling trap to the personal attack rules?

Many posters who've spent time reading the various threads and posts regarding the Villa(aaa)ge, especially at its height two or three years ago, will remember the snide comments suggesting a lot of the Village patrons were clearly visitors and not from Brixton. It was a claim that was made often enough, and by more than one source.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> How could I do so without falling trap to the personal attack rules?
> 
> Many posters who've spent time reading the various threads and posts regarding the Villa(aaa)ge, especially at its height two or three years ago, will remember the snide comments suggesting a lot of the Village patrons were clearly visitors and not from Brixton. It was a claim that was made often enough, and by more than one source.



If you dont feel you can include the names of the posters to which you refer to for fear of breaking rules, then perhaps you shouldn't be making the post in the first place.


----------



## Winot (Feb 5, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> If you dont feel you can include the names of the posters to which you refer to for fear of breaking rules, then perhaps you shouldn't be making the post in the first place.



Or that the rule is wrong.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> Or that the rule is wrong.


It is if you want every fucking thread to descend into the usual nasty, personal, spiteful bunfights from the same individuals time and time again.


----------



## Winot (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> Don’t get me wrong Mr Pretro (if I can call you that ) – there’s nothing wrong with a "well run" suburban food court, even one with a hipster / favela-chic / yawn / twist … Not sure I think Brixton is the place for it – it feels a bit more like Merton Abbey Mills really, but I think you may so admire “business nous” that you simply enjoy that – what I don’t like is that it’s like the marketing has become the thing itself. I like a crepe - but does that entail the crepe sellers having a “spirit animal”? Everything is so self-consciously interesting that it all feels a bit over done, and you start to feel like it might all taste of melted cheese. What I used to like about Brixton was the businesses, the food, the stalls were just normal (you can in fact still find pockets of it here and there if you’re lucky) – just things you'd stumble across that people happened to know how to do well because that's what they did. But that was a legacy of when neighbourhoods weren't over-hyped fantasy commodities but were just strange organic collective things which emerged out of how people are naturally weird and they have to live and work and deal with stuff. Now they make a sandwich and it's like a spiritual journey. It's like eating food with a PR strategy as its filling. I guess you enjoy that.



I've got a lot of sympathy with this position.  I was visiting San Francisco earlier in the year, and popped into a posh chocolate shop on Mission St to pick something up for the kids.  Emblazoned across one wall were instructions telling you how to have a full chocolate experience, beginning with a discussion with the makers about their chocolate philosophy.  Being British, I skipped all of this and just bought a bar of chocolate. In a tight-lipped manner.

However, I'm not sure the caricature fits Pop - or at least the businesses I have been to. Mostly they are just selling you food.

Did you have a particular business in mind soupdragon?


----------



## Winot (Feb 5, 2016)

editor said:


> It is if you want every fucking thread to descend into the usual nasty, personal, spiteful bunfights from the same individuals time and time again.



"the same individuals"


----------



## T & P (Feb 5, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> If you dont feel you can include the names of the posters to which you refer to for fear of breaking rules, then perhaps you shouldn't be making the post in the first place.


Well, it is a claim that has been made repeteadly over the years, and not only regarding Village visitors but nightlife revellers. That it has happened is beyond question. It is not my fault if digging up individual quotes years after they were made is seen as a no-no.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> "the same individuals"


Ah, I see you want to keep it going. Well done.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> However, I'm not sure the caricature fits Pop - or at least the businesses I have been to. Mostly they are just selling you food.


Perhaps you missed the mission statement here. It's exactly what soupdragon was describing. 


> Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything you’ve seen before; it’s own world. You feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. Around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.
> 
> Now stop imagining. Because POP Brixton has been created in…you guessed it, Brixton.


----------



## Winot (Feb 5, 2016)

A green oasis, you say? Tell me more.


----------



## Mr Retro (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> Don’t get me wrong Mr Pretro (if I can call you that ) – there’s nothing wrong with a "well run" suburban food court, even one with a hipster / favela-chic / yawn / twist … Not sure I think Brixton is the place for it – it feels a bit more like Merton Abbey Mills really, but I think you may so admire “business nous” that you simply enjoy that – what I don’t like is that it’s like the marketing has become the thing itself. I like a crepe - but does that entail the crepe sellers having a “spirit animal”? Everything is so self-consciously interesting that it all feels a bit over done, and you start to feel like it might all taste of melted cheese. What I used to like about Brixton was the businesses, the food, the stalls were just normal (you can in fact still find pockets of it here and there if you’re lucky) – just things you'd stumble across that people happened to know how to do well because that's what they did. But that was a legacy of when neighbourhoods weren't over-hyped fantasy commodities but were just strange organic collective things which emerged out of how people are naturally weird and they have to live and work and deal with stuff. Now they make a sandwich and it's like a spiritual journey. It's like eating food with a PR strategy as its filling. I guess you enjoy that.


I think that would apply to Pop if the food was expensive and bad. It's not. It's inexpensive and excellent. The marketing is a part of it but only a part. The stall holder is in a brilliant well run space and can get on with running their business. Brixton is obviously the place for it, based on its massive success. To say you want brixton to stay as it was is unrealistic and nimbyism.

Granville market was arguably "just strange organic collective things which emerged out of how people are naturally weird". It lasted no time and those stall holders who were part of it lost out. I ask again - were they compensated or is it "you know, I gave this fuck all thought and now we're closing - sorry you have to leave too". Did they even get the rent they paid in the previous weeks back?


----------



## willowmoon (Feb 5, 2016)

Well  i am from Brixton, And totally skint, so would never be able to afford the rent on those containers... But it is my Dream


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

willowmoon said:


> Well  i am from Brixton, And totally skint, so would never be able to afford the rent on those containers... But it is my Dream


If you're after opening a pie and mash shop (which really should be cheap food if you're calling it that), I'd suggest you'd be better off maybe starting off as a temporary pop-up thingy in - perhaps - a pub or a less trendy market space and seeing what kind of response you get. 

A few food businesses have sprung out of places like the Hootaanny garden in the past, and there's quite a trend for small food pop ups in pubs. Perhaps ask at some of the less obvious ones?


----------



## willowmoon (Feb 5, 2016)

Yep would definitely be cheap pie mash liquor, not to sure bout the jellied eels... Lol


----------



## teuchter (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> Don’t get me wrong Mr Pretro (if I can call you that ) – there’s nothing wrong with a "well run" suburban food court, even one with a hipster / favela-chic / yawn / twist … Not sure I think Brixton is the place for it – it feels a bit more like Merton Abbey Mills really, but I think you may so admire “business nous” that you simply enjoy that – what I don’t like is that it’s like the marketing has become the thing itself. I like a crepe - but does that entail the crepe sellers having a “spirit animal”? Everything is so self-consciously interesting that it all feels a bit over done, and you start to feel like it might all taste of melted cheese. What I used to like about Brixton was the businesses, the food, the stalls were just normal (you can in fact still find pockets of it here and there if you’re lucky) – just things you'd stumble across that people happened to know how to do well because that's what they did. But that was a legacy of when neighbourhoods weren't over-hyped fantasy commodities but were just strange organic collective things which emerged out of how people are naturally weird and they have to live and work and deal with stuff. Now they make a sandwich and it's like a spiritual journey. It's like eating food with a PR strategy as its filling. I guess you enjoy that.


I agree to some extent with this. It's an at least partially fair description of what Pop Brixton is.

However I think it was fairly clear that Pop Brixton was going to be something like this from the beginning. Not just because all the commercial and PR elements were fairly explicitly laid out in the original Grow Brixton proposal, but because it's in the nature of this kind of project which has to at least balance its books. 

But the references to the PR waffle about green oases and the rest of it keep being banged out, over and over, when it's totally naive to have expected the scheme not to have had the commercial elements which lead to the kind of stuff you describe above. It's being judged against an imaginary and unrealistic benchmark, and it's really tedious because the argument never moves beyond that. Yawn, yawn, yawn.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

willowmoon said:


> Yep would definitely be cheap pie mash liquor, not to sure bout the jellied eels... Lol


You might find this of interest: Brixton history - J Young Eel and Pie restaurant, 426 Coldharbour Lane, Brixton SW9 8LF, now Gyozo Chinese and Japanese restaurant, Lambeth, London


----------



## soupdragon (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> I've got a lot of sympathy with this position.  I was visiting San Francisco earlier in the year, and popped into a posh chocolate shop on Mission St to pick something up for the kids.  Emblazoned across one wall were instructions telling you how to have a full chocolate experience, beginning with a discussion with the makers about their chocolate philosophy.  Being British, I skipped all of this and just bought a bar of chocolate. In a tight-lipped manner.
> 
> However, I'm not sure the caricature fits Pop - or at least the businesses I have been to. Mostly they are just selling you food.
> 
> Did you have a particular business in mind soupdragon?



I think many of them are on the scale of that kind of artisinal, excess-of-adjectives thing however modest they are themselves. But it's not always intentional – it’s kind of unavoidable because of the context provided by Pop – its newsletters, its tweets, all that exciting stuff, its gated-community architecture cleverly / ironically disguised as a favela – feel outside, on the inside! But Pop is tedious because it's just another example of the strangely saturated-yet-empty wider culture. I don’t think my comment reads as a complaint against change, but against the kind of change, and also about the kind of excitement we’re all surrounded by. This is a state-sponsored project. It's got so much bravado and championing behind it it hurts. Brixton Village was the same. And you can't help thinking “is this it?” There's this feeling that these kind of projects are so cutting edge, but really? Is this the cutting edge? The built-in hype simply can't bear out the reality. The food might be inexpensive and excellent. It might be a place of people following their "dreams" as Mr Pretro said so touchingly. But really? The 2010s in London are going to be remembered as the decade of stacks of shipping containers and food excessively sprinkled with adjectives while the libraries and estates were dismantled around them and the rents went up – that’s the change we so welcome? A food court with a hipster feel? I think the animosity this thread throws at it specifically is understandable because it represents the suburbanisation of Brixton disguised as a confection of vibrant edginess. Of the conversion of Brixton's actual street culture into faux-edginess. But in a way, Pop Brixton specifically isn't worth the negative attention, because that's just the flip side of the excess of positive attention. Fine – it might be disappointing it didn’t become a growing space etc, but it’s understandable the council would want to turn it into more of a business-orientated venture. And it's presumably good that it then has some community spirit and all that. But even on those terms the over-hype feels like the desperation of knowing it’s not really deserved. Apparently the work spaces are quietly no longer happening, so its just a food court. Essentially, to just expand the scale of our focus from the overly-tanalising particularity of it all, it's just part of our low-expectation culture based within the excessively hyped myth of creative entrepreneurialism –"start-ups”, "dreams"! It’s like Cameron’s "Silicon Roundabout” - woo hoo! A load of crappy software! When the economy needs hardware to be worth anything! It’s like Uber - Disruptive! A labour-exchange for part-time cab drivers! All these local property developers and landlords making out by doing something as unproductive and risk-free as putting their capital into becoming rentiers! Heroic! Let’s boost the neighbourhood! Let’s get the kids to boost the neighbourhood themselves! Instagram your lunch! And meanwhile, everything public – everything with the potential to have a collective mass to do something actually interesting – continues to be dismantled around it, and we don't notice what that could mean economically, what genuinely exciting, genuinely productive, community-beneficial, long-termist things might have been possible (not necessarily on the corner of Pope's Road, but maybe - who knows?), because we’re all so focused on hype (and gripes) around the bullshit of creative entrepreneurialism.

Personally, I always fancied a kind of massive cylindrical multi-player computer game world with enormous screens and platforms and stuff where kids would be able to play some kind of massive game together. Brixton as a centre of mad teenage gaming industries works for me way better than another hipster food court.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> I think many of them are on the scale of that kind of artisinal, excess-of-adjectives thing however modest they are themselves. But it's not always intentional – it’s kind of unavoidable because of the context provided by Pop – its newsletters, its tweets, all that exciting stuff, its gated-community architecture cleverly / ironically disguised as a favela – feel outside, on the inside! But Pop is tedious because it's just another example of the strangely saturated-yet-empty wider culture. I don’t think my comment reads as a complaint against change, but against the kind of change, and also about the kind of excitement we’re all surrounded by. This is a state-sponsored project. It's got so much bravado and championing behind it it hurts. Brixton Village was the same. And you can't help thinking “is this it?” There's this feeling that these kind of projects are so cutting edge, but really? Is this the cutting edge? The built-in hype simply can't bear out the reality. The food might be inexpensive and excellent. It might be a place of people following their "dreams" as Mr Pretro said so touchingly. But really? The 2010s in London are going to be remembered as the decade of stacks of shipping containers and food excessively sprinkled with adjectives while the libraries and estates were dismantled around them and the rents went up – that’s the change we so welcome? A food court with a hipster feel? I think the animosity this thread throws at it specifically is understandable because it represents the suburbanisation of Brixton disguised as a confection of vibrant edginess. Of the conversion of Brixton's actual street culture into faux-edginess. But in a way, Pop Brixton specifically isn't worth the negative attention, because that's just the flip side of the excess of positive attention. Fine – it might be disappointing it didn’t become a growing space etc, but it’s understandable the council would want to turn it into more of a business-orientated venture. And it's presumably good that it then has some community spirit and all that. But even on those terms the over-hype feels like the desperation of knowing it’s not really deserved. Apparently the work spaces are quietly no longer happening, so its just a food court. Essentially, to just expand the scale of our focus from the overly-tanalising particularity of it all, it's just part of our low-expectation culture based within the excessively hyped myth of creative entrepreneurialism –"start-ups”, "dreams"! It’s like Cameron’s "Silicon Roundabout” - woo hoo! A load of crappy software! When the economy needs hardware to be worth anything! It’s like Uber - Disruptive! A labour-exchange for part-time cab drivers! All these local property developers and landlords making out by doing something as unproductive and risk-free as putting their capital into becoming rentiers! Heroic! Let’s boost the neighbourhood! Let’s get the kids to boost the neighbourhood themselves! Instagram your lunch! And meanwhile, everything public – everything with the potential to have a collective mass to do something actually interesting – continues to be dismantled around it, and we don't notice what that could mean economically, what genuinely exciting, genuinely productive, community-beneficial, long-termist things might have been possible (not necessarily on the corner of Pope's Road, but maybe - who knows?), because we’re all so focused on hype (and gripes) around the bullshit of creative entrepreneurialism.
> 
> Personally, I always fancied a kind of massive cylindrical multi-player computer game world with enormous screens and platforms and stuff where kids would be able to play some kind of massive game together. Brixton as a centre of mad teenage gaming industries works for me way better than another hipster food court.


Brilliant!


----------



## teuchter (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> I think many of them are on the scale of that kind of artisinal, excess-of-adjectives thing however modest they are themselves. But it's not always intentional – it’s kind of unavoidable because of the context provided by Pop – its newsletters, its tweets, all that exciting stuff, its gated-community architecture cleverly / ironically disguised as a favela – feel outside, on the inside! But Pop is tedious because it's just another example of the strangely saturated-yet-empty wider culture. I don’t think my comment reads as a complaint against change, but against the kind of change, and also about the kind of excitement we’re all surrounded by. This is a state-sponsored project. It's got so much bravado and championing behind it it hurts. Brixton Village was the same. And you can't help thinking “is this it?” There's this feeling that these kind of projects are so cutting edge, but really? Is this the cutting edge? The built-in hype simply can't bear out the reality. The food might be inexpensive and excellent. It might be a place of people following their "dreams" as Mr Pretro said so touchingly. But really? The 2010s in London are going to be remembered as the decade of stacks of shipping containers and food excessively sprinkled with adjectives while the libraries and estates were dismantled around them and the rents went up – that’s the change we so welcome? A food court with a hipster feel? I think the animosity this thread throws at it specifically is understandable because it represents the suburbanisation of Brixton disguised as a confection of vibrant edginess. Of the conversion of Brixton's actual street culture into faux-edginess. But in a way, Pop Brixton specifically isn't worth the negative attention, because that's just the flip side of the excess of positive attention. Fine – it might be disappointing it didn’t become a growing space etc, but it’s understandable the council would want to turn it into more of a business-orientated venture. And it's presumably good that it then has some community spirit and all that. But even on those terms the over-hype feels like the desperation of knowing it’s not really deserved. Apparently the work spaces are quietly no longer happening, so its just a food court. Essentially, to just expand the scale of our focus from the overly-tanalising particularity of it all, it's just part of our low-expectation culture based within the excessively hyped myth of creative entrepreneurialism –"start-ups”, "dreams"! It’s like Cameron’s "Silicon Roundabout” - woo hoo! A load of crappy software! When the economy needs hardware to be worth anything! It’s like Uber - Disruptive! A labour-exchange for part-time cab drivers! All these local property developers and landlords making out by doing something as unproductive and risk-free as putting their capital into becoming rentiers! Heroic! Let’s boost the neighbourhood! Let’s get the kids to boost the neighbourhood themselves! Instagram your lunch! And meanwhile, everything public – everything with the potential to have a collective mass to do something actually interesting – continues to be dismantled around it, and we don't notice what that could mean economically, what genuinely exciting, genuinely productive, community-beneficial, long-termist things might have been possible (not necessarily on the corner of Pope's Road, but maybe - who knows?), because we’re all so focused on hype (and gripes) around the bullshit of creative entrepreneurialism.
> 
> Personally, I always fancied a kind of massive cylindrical multi-player computer game world with enormous screens and platforms and stuff where kids would be able to play some kind of massive game together. Brixton as a centre of mad teenage gaming industries works for me way better than another hipster food court.


Can't find a whole lot to disagree with here really. 

You say the work spaces are no longer happening - where/when was that announced?


----------



## willowmoon (Feb 5, 2016)

Thats great.thanks for the link


----------



## willowmoon (Feb 5, 2016)

Erm not quite  got the hang of the replying..  Am working on it lol


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

Two FEASTS coming up at Pop.


----------



## Winot (Feb 5, 2016)

Lovely stuff soupdragon, but if you think that Pop was ever going to compensate for libraries and estates being dismantled, then I think it's you that's bought into the marketing spiel. 

It's pretty simple as far as I'm concerned - a car park has been replaced with a centre for small businesses which also has some community benefit.  And that's a positive change in my book.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> Lovely stuff soupdragon, but if you think that Pop was ever going to compensate for libraries and estates being dismantled, then I think it's you that's bought into the marketing spiel.
> 
> It's pretty simple as far as I'm concerned - a car park has been replaced with a centre for small businesses which also has some community benefit.  And that's a positive change in my book.


Quite a few of the old traders would say that losing the car park was a fucking disastrous change, and one that had a hugely negative impact on their businesses.

But you can buy more crepes now and graze extensively under a tent till late while being serenaded by DJs.


----------



## Winot (Feb 5, 2016)

editor said:


> Quite a few of the old traders would say that losing the car park was a fucking disastrous change, and one that had a hugely negative impact on their businesses.



Do you think they should have rebuilt the car park then?


----------



## soupdragon (Feb 5, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Can't find a whole lot to disagree with here really.
> 
> You say the work spaces are no longer happening - where/when was that announced?



grapevine. As I said "apparently". Worth finding out.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> Do you think they should have rebuilt the car park then?


I think the traders should have been listened to, and that other options could have been explored. Do you think that they were treated fairly? 












Brixton Market lockdown – traders protest against the car park closure


----------



## teuchter (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> Lovely stuff soupdragon, but if you think that Pop was ever going to compensate for libraries and estates being dismantled, then I think it's you that's bought into the marketing spiel.



And of course Pop Brixton isn't the cause of libraries and housing being dismantled.

(Not that I think soupdragon was arguing that)


----------



## soupdragon (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> but if you think that Pop was ever going to compensate for libraries and estates being dismantled, then I think it's you that's bought into the marketing spiel.



Yeah I wasn't making any kind of direct link like that. Though gyms instead of libraries / food court instead of traditional market-serving car park potentially has some similarities...


----------



## Winot (Feb 5, 2016)

I want London (and Brixton in particular) to reduce dependency on the motor vehicle.  Partly for this reason:

Brixton Road expected to break the EU pollution limit for ALL of 2015 this week

So I shed no tears for the loss of a car park.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

deadringer said:


> If you're not from Brixton pretend you are. It'll save you a hell of a lot of nasty spiteful comments.



Fair point.You *are* a one for that sort of shite.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> It'd be no use. Some people have a built-in Brixtonradar that allows them to know whether soneone is from Brixton just by looking at them.



Don't be a twat.
It's blatantly the accent that gives outsiders away!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> *A gutless snipe*, say who you mean or fuck off.


I bought a brace of gutless snipe from my game dealer yesterday, what what!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> Don’t get me wrong Mr Pretro (if I can call you that ) – there’s nothing wrong with a "well run" suburban food court, even one with a hipster / favela-chic / yawn / twist … Not sure I think Brixton is the place for it – it feels a bit more like Merton Abbey Mills really, but I think you may so admire “business nous” that you simply enjoy that – what I don’t like is that it’s like the marketing has become the thing itself. I like a crepe - but does that entail the crepe sellers having a “spirit animal”? Everything is so self-consciously interesting that it all feels a bit over done, and you start to feel like it might all taste of melted cheese. What I used to like about Brixton was the businesses, the food, the stalls were just normal (you can in fact still find pockets of it here and there if you’re lucky) – just things you'd stumble across that people happened to know how to do well because that's what they did. But that was a legacy of when neighbourhoods weren't over-hyped fantasy commodities but were just strange organic collective things which emerged out of how people are naturally weird and they have to live and work and deal with stuff. Now they make a sandwich and it's like a spiritual journey. It's like eating food with a PR strategy as its filling. I guess you enjoy that.



To be scrupulously fair, that critique can equally be applied to the "shopping zone" in just about every district of every city and to most large towns. This whole "added value burger with a feel-good tale attached" turn in consumption capitalism has taken over as the hegemonic method of selling stuff to us. It's no longer enough to be functional and/or flavourful, there's got to be a feel-good factor for the end-user attached.
As for Brixton, the town's fate reminds me of Battersea and Clapham Junction in the '80s and '90s, as the useful workaday shops and stalls that catered to the earlier communities (everything from "exotic produce" stalls to cheap clothing shops to Dub Vendor) fell away, to be replaced by vendors selling into the new "upwardly mobile" crowd that had started to buy into the area. Except that in Brixton, it's mostly taken place within the last decade, whereas it took 2 in Battersea and Clapham Junction.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2016)

willowmoon said:


> Yep would definitely be cheap pie mash liquor, not to sure bout the jellied eels... Lol



*Nobody* is sure about the jellied eels. 

Smoked eels, on the other hand...


----------



## T & P (Feb 5, 2016)

Fuck me, I never imagine I'd see the day in which car use in London and car culture would be openly praised in the Brixton forum of U75. 

How far away the heady days of Reclaim the Streets demos feel now.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 5, 2016)

The Loughborough Junction closure debate shows how strongly people feel about their cars.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

I remain as strongly anti-car as I ever have.

However, that doesn't blind me to the fact that for some people they are an essential form of transport, particularly the elderly or infirm who rely on being able to pick up cheap bulk buys from street markets. I don't imagine many of those people own multiple cars or drive them very often either.


----------



## deadringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Thing is we can either get our knickers in a twist over every last PR release, tweet or instagrammed picture, or Pop can been seen for what it really is, something not to be taken too seriously, something a bit different,  something that fills the gap between sit down restaurant and take aways. Who really cares what some guff filled PR release says, people aren't stupid, the proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating. If the foods crap it won't do well. Sometimes you don't have the time or even want to go through the whole sit-down-and-eat process, especially if you're alone, and for me Pop is great for that, being able to grab some freshly cooked healthy food for a fairly reasonable sum, nothing too fancy or extravagant, and if it's helping someone make a living there rather than in some grimy fried chicken and kebab shop then that's a positive in my book.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 5, 2016)

Concerns about the elderly and infirm being disadvantaged by any restriction on car use is standard fare trotted out by the motor lobby and it's nonsense because they are amongst the groups most disadvantaged by car dependancy. As was discussed ad nauseum in the LJ closures thread. 

The way to give the elderly and infirm good access to transport is to provide good public transport and pedestrian-friendly streets alongside some strategically located disabled-only parking for those with mobility problems who can afford to and are able to drive. Not multi-storey carparks in the middle of local centres in over-polluted and congested zone 2 London.


----------



## soupdragon (Feb 5, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Thing is we can either get our knickers in a twist over every last PR release, tweet or instagrammed picture, or Pop can been seen for what it really is, something not to be taken too seriously, something a bit different,  something that fills the gap between sit down restaurant and take aways. Who really cares what some guff filled PR release says, people aren't stupid, the proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating. If the foods crap it won't do well. Sometimes you don't have the time or even want to go through the whole sit-down-and-eat process, especially if you're alone, and for me Pop is great for that, being able to grab some freshly cooked healthy food for a fairly reasonable sum, nothing too fancy or extravagant, and if it's helping someone make a living there rather than in some grimy fried chicken and kebab shop then that's a positive in my book.



Maybe you should write their marketing for them?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 5, 2016)

Dream and eat while standing up.....

excellent


----------



## deadringer (Feb 5, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> Maybe you should write their marketing for them?
> 
> View attachment 83079



Took me a minute there to realise that was my post!


----------



## leanderman (Feb 5, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Concerns about the elderly and infirm being disadvantaged by any restriction on car use is standard fare trotted out by the motor lobby and it's nonsense



And who can forget the ridiculous claim that cars were necessary for parents to take their children's art projects to school?


----------



## teuchter (Feb 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> And who can forget the ridiculous claim that cars were necessary for parents to take their children's art projects to school?


Or to drive from Dulwich to the South Bank to attend classical music concerts


----------



## leanderman (Feb 5, 2016)

Definitely worth us choking to death for!


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> And who can forget the ridiculous claim that cars were necessary for parents to take their children's art projects to school?


Not sure what that's got to do with anything in this thread, but who made the claim?


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Which, last I checked, was being used to grow things.


In the interests of science and being scrupulously fair, I took a look at the "greenhouse" today to see what things were being grown.

 

Mmmmm. Positively _verdant_! 

 

And here's all the greenery downstairs.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 5, 2016)

Enough wood for a small forest


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 5, 2016)

I like the painted on plant pots.


----------



## leanderman (Feb 5, 2016)

editor said:


> Not sure what that's got to do with anything in this thread, but who made the claim?



Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins


----------



## leanderman (Feb 5, 2016)

Winot said:


> Lovely stuff soupdragon, but if you think that Pop was ever going to compensate for libraries and estates being dismantled, then I think it's you that's bought into the marketing spiel.
> 
> It's pretty simple as far as I'm concerned - a car park has been replaced with a centre for small businesses which also has some community benefit.  And that's a positive change in my book.



Yep. Leaving aside the fantasies about what Pop could have been, should have been, it's worked out surprisingly well. And may even help LBL's finances.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Loughborough Junction public space improvements - consultation begins


OK, that really is wildly off topic.


----------



## CH1 (Feb 6, 2016)

Surely this thread is about Oases, not the internal combustion engine?


----------



## Uni Student (Feb 7, 2016)

Hi i'm doing an essay on brixton Pop, and am myself from around Brixton. Just wanted to get a general idea on peoples opinion on Pop with regards to its ethos and ethics, and mainly this question that I've been toying with...

Has Brixton pop been successful in targeting the majority of the Brixton community?


----------



## Winot (Feb 7, 2016)

Uni Student said:


> Hi i'm doing an essay on brixton Pop, and am myself from around Brixton. Just wanted to get a general idea on peoples opinion on Pop with regards to its ethos and ethics, and mainly this question that I've been toying with...
> 
> Has Brixton pop been successful in targeting the majority of the Brixton community?



I think you'll find if you read this thread that posters don't really have an opinion one way or another.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 7, 2016)

Yeah, not really been discussed before.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Feb 7, 2016)

There is currently a 'South London Carnival' taking place at Pop. I can't find any other details online. The queues are HUGE though - all the way back to the end of Brixton Station Road.


----------



## cuppa tee (Feb 7, 2016)

Tricky Skills said:


> There is currently a 'South London Carnival' taking place at Pop. I can't find any other details online. The queues are HUGE though - all the way back to the end of Brixton Station Road.



where's wally ?


----------



## teuchter (Feb 7, 2016)

It's been all over their facebook page since Friday. 

Free entry apparently, which will disappoint some here.


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 7, 2016)

teuchter said:


> It's been all over their facebook page since Friday.
> 
> Free entry apparently, which will disappoint some here.



6000 people attending. Had a look and some angry comments about what seemed like a beer promotion but nonetheless stunned that 6000 said they were going. The place certainly has some reach.


----------



## deadringer (Feb 7, 2016)

Must have taken ages for security to search each and every bag


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 7, 2016)

The FB page is for the event is getting some very negative comments.

ETA - Negative comments are disappearing off the fb events page rather rapidly...

I'm guessing they really weren't expecting those numbers.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 7, 2016)

Everyone looks the same....


----------



## madolesance (Feb 7, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The FB page is for the event is getting some very negative comments.
> 
> ETA - Negative comments are disappearing off the fb events page rather rapidly...
> 
> I'm guessing they really weren't expecting those numbers.



I have also noticed they are fairly savy at ensuring anything negative is pretty much disappeared.


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 7, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Everyone looks the same....


Nah, I can see a couple of guys without beards.


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 7, 2016)

madolesance said:


> I have also noticed they are fairly savy at ensuring anything negative is pretty much disappeared.



Wow. They have taken them all down except for the ones about the queues as I suppose that looks good in a way.
Still can't believe there were 6k saying they'd attend. That's more than can fit in the Academy. is there a way of buying event attendees in the same way you can buy Likes? if so I might look into that


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 7, 2016)

soupdragon said:


> And meanwhile, everything public – everything with the potential to have a collective mass to do something actually interesting – continues to be dismantled around it, and we don't notice what that could mean economically, what genuinely exciting, genuinely productive, community-beneficial, long-termist things might have been possible (not necessarily on the corner of Pope's Road, but maybe - who knows?), because we’re all so focused on hype (and gripes) around the bullshit of creative entrepreneurialism.



Up in Loughborough Junction the Council tenants on the Loughborough Estate say they do not want Pop up on there patch. They are scathing about Pop. They feel insecure about the future of there housing with good reason. They do not trust New Labour. For them the dismantling you post about is all to real. And it didnt start with the Tories but New Labour.

LJ is going to get a version of Pop minus food courts.

Supposedly going to benefit the estate. But the job element is all about encouraging people to be "entrepreneurs". As I said at last LJ meeting there is an obsession now with trying to make people become entrepreneurs.

I said what people on the estate really need is chance of proper training. Not some mickey mouse course ( at meeting said it more diplomatically). Did not go down well with the Cllr or officers.

(I could have added but did not at the meeting - to do something long termist like build Council housing and a new Youth centre. But that kind of vision has gone politically. To argue for it is seen as being naive and a fantasy.)

Its bollox even from a practical point of view. I know people who have been unemployed for a while and "coaxed" into setting up there own business. They do not make any money. But they can still claim some benefits and it gets them off the unemployment figures. So they can join the new Precariat.

btw Uber has led to so many cab drivers they are ending up undercutting each other. This new economy is leading to a growth in insecure and low paid employment. Primarily in the service economy.


----------



## editor (Feb 7, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The FB page is for the event is getting some very negative comments.
> 
> ETA - Negative comments are disappearing off the fb events page rather rapidly...
> 
> I'm guessing they really weren't expecting those numbers.


Probably my fault for featuring the event on Buzz


----------



## editor (Feb 7, 2016)

madolesance said:


> I have also noticed they are fairly savy at ensuring anything negative is pretty much disappeared.


That's a pretty shitty and dishonest thing to do.


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2016)

ID piece on Peckham's multi story car park describes Pop Brixton as a "shipping-container-cum-psuedo-permaculture commercial dystopia."



> Before the wrecking-balls arrive however, Southwark Council have decided to transform the whole building into a temporary community arts space.
> 
> They will hand over all six hard, concrete floors of the car park to Pop Community Ltd, the architectural development firm responsible for Pop Brixton, the shipping-container-cum-psuedo-permaculture commercial dystopia.
> 
> ...





> Then there's the fact that the clientele who can afford what Pop are offering won't come unless it's a slick, polished operation. It's a vicious cycle of investment and expectation. It means that the people who come to work in Peckham will be the ones who can afford the expensive studios. Peckham doesn't need that: it needs space for the people who are already there.
> 
> One of the aims of the Bold Home project was to positively discriminate in favour of Peckham's Afro-Caribbean community and local artists when selecting studio tenants. It would have provided cheap spaces for all occupants - in fact ten percent of their studios would have been completely free for community groups and charities, for the full five year run.
> 
> ...


uncovering the impact behind redeveloping the peckham multi-storey carpark | read | i-D


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 8, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Everyone looks the same....


wow, that looks a proper shit "festival".


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 8, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> wow, that looks a proper shit "festival".



Like a massive queue for an outside loo


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 8, 2016)

or a terrace at the football with no game to watch.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 8, 2016)

I'm sure it was a huge commercial success, and I'm sure lots of people had fun. 

To pull off a Brazilian carnival themed party outdoors on a freezing Sunday in Feb and have so massively over subscribed so that queues are running down the streets is quite an achievement.

I think deleting negative reviews from the event page is a bit off, but I also suspect it is quite common for businesses to act that way.

I do wonder how many people who showed up and didn't get in will ever bother again, and how many who did get in, and had a bad time, will ever bother again. 

But I'm sure Pop's people will feel they made a success of the day and, despite deleting them, take note of the negative feedbCk for future events because some of it wasn't just about queues; there was lots about the quality of the entertainment too...

But good luck to em, sure they made a mint yesterday...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Everyone looks the same....



Except for the three people with bunny ears on, because bunny ears.


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> To pull off a Brazilian carnival themed party outdoors on a freezing Sunday in Feb ...


Pop isn't outdoors any more. It has a roof and energy sucking industrial heaters.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 8, 2016)

editor said:


> Pop isn't outdoors any more. It has a roof and energy sucking industrial heaters.



bet it's still cold


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> bet it's still cold


Maybe but those heaters are pretty hefty things and there's quite a few of them.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 8, 2016)

People still pretty wrapped up though (in themselves!!!!)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I said what people on the estate really need is chance of proper training. Not some mickey mouse course ( at meeting said it more diplomatically). Did not go down well with the Cllr or officers.



It wouldn't. They know that a lot of the "training" is mickey mouse bollocks, because they helped set a lot of it up. 
One of the things we're promoting on our Cressingham Gdns "Peoples' Plan" is that if we exercise Right to Manage, or Right to Transfer, we'd insist that any major works contract included taking on locals for proper construction apprenticeships, as opposed to six-month "make the site foreman's tea" apprenticeships. We're also looking at funding streams for adult and further ed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2016)

editor said:


> That's a pretty shitty and dishonest thing to do.



I said much the same to Chuka Umunna when he edited away any criticism of him on his facebook page over his lies about the Cressingham Gardens regeneration. To them, facebook is a promotional tool, so any inconvenient truths that mess with that promotion will get binned.


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I said much the same to Chuka Umunna when he edited away any criticism of him on his facebook page over his lies about the Cressingham Gardens regeneration. To them, facebook is a promotional tool, so any inconvenient truths that mess with that promotion will get binned.


Which is why facebook remains fucking shit for anything but the lightest of chit chat on serious topics.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 8, 2016)

Is there much about it on Twitter?

One innocuous reference to the queue came up when I searched #popbrixton yesterday. I'm not really sure how Twitter works or if that's how you search for stuff tbh.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 8, 2016)

I couldn't see much on twitter


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 8, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I said much the same to Chuka Umunna when he edited away any criticism of him on his facebook page over his lies about the Cressingham Gardens regeneration. To them, facebook is a promotional tool, so any inconvenient truths that mess with that promotion will get binned.



Worth taking a screen grab and then posting the deleted post on twitter. That would wind him up in future and probably cause more shit than Facebook.


----------



## T & P (Feb 8, 2016)

TBF it cuts both ways. Just as you often see some horrendous reviews of a place on Trip Advisor that are clearly commercially driven or otherwise created by a hater or a troll, it wouldn't be unexpected or unlikely to find overtly negative reviews of Pop on FB and elsewhere by people with an axe to grind. There are some folks in Brixton who check for sea containers under their bed every night.


----------



## twistedAM (Feb 8, 2016)

T & P said:


> TBF it cuts both ways. Just as you often see some horrendous reviews of a place on Trip Advisor that are clearly commercially driven or otherwise created by a hater or a troll, it wouldn't be unexpected or unlikely to find overtly negative reviews of Pop on FB and elsewhere by people with an axe to grind. There are some folks in Brixton who check for sea containers under their bed every night.



Agreed especially about Trip Advisor but these seemed very genuine comments (mostly from Brazilians).
As a rule of thumb I take it that if I'm using Facebook to advertise an event for free then people are free to comment (up to a point of course but generally I let things stay).


----------



## leanderman (Feb 8, 2016)

Much excited tweeting and videos from this LJ cafe owner: R@yC.A.F.E (@foodray) on Twitter


Rushy said:


> Is there much about it on Twitter?
> 
> One innocuous reference to the queue came up when I searched #popbrixton yesterday. I'm not really sure how Twitter works or if that's how you search for stuff tbh.



This LJ chef was tweeting excitedly: R@yC.A.F.E (@foodray) on Twitter


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Agreed especially about Trip Advisor but these seemed very genuine comments (mostly from Brazilians).
> As a rule of thumb I take it that if I'm using Facebook to advertise an event for free then people are free to comment (up to a point of course but generally I let things stay).


I've heard some local moaning too. To suggest that the comments were made up and malicious (without a shred of proof to support such an accusation) is a really shitty thing to do. I'm not surprised people are pissed off. Who wants to queue outside for hours on end on a cold February afternoon?


----------



## alcopop (Feb 11, 2016)

They're hiring!

Pop Brixton


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2016)

alcopop said:


> They're hiring!
> 
> Pop Brixton


To have any hope of clinching the 'deeply creative visual designer' job they force you to sign up to something called the Escape Community, who then offer to spam you weekly. Snappy T&C too: Terms and Conditions - Escape the City


----------



## Mr Retro (Feb 11, 2016)

alcopop said:


> They're hiring!
> 
> Pop Brixton


5 new jobs - good for them


----------



## alcopop (Feb 11, 2016)

editor said:


> To have any hope of clinching the 'deeply creative visual designer' job they force you to sign up to something called the Escape Community, who then offer to spam you weekly. Snappy T&C too: Terms and Conditions - Escape the City



Its just a job search type website tbf.


----------



## reubeness (Feb 11, 2016)

Pop Brixton - supposedly working with the Brixton community have a florist selling directly opposite the existing florist under the bridge on Popes Road. Flower Love London is a Brixton resident who has been out there all year struggling to start her business, now it's established and everyone knows where she is, Pop put a florist in direct competition. I'm so angry, as if it isn't hard enough to make a living in the market these days...grrrr!!!  Flower Love London was so calm about it today when I was ranting, she said she has really loyal customers who continue to buy from her - it's not on though really


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2016)

reubeness said:


> Pop Brixton - supposedly working with the Brixton community have a florist selling directly opposite the existing florist under the bridge on Popes Road. Flower Love London is a Brixton resident who has been out there all year struggling to start her business, now it's established and everyone knows where she is, Pop put a florist in direct competition. I'm so angry, as if it isn't hard enough to make a living in the market these days...grrrr!!!  Flower Love London was so calm about it today when I was ranting, she said she has really loyal customers who continue to buy from her - it's not on though really


That really sucks. She's worked really hard at that business so it must be gutting to have competition charging into her patch in this manner. What's the story with the new florist?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 11, 2016)

Yes, it must be massively frustrating to have competition arrive on your doorstep after such a short time,  but it is a part of the risk of starting up a business. The flower guy outside the station may have been a bit peeved when Flower Love opened....but that is the nature of commercial ventures. There's always a bigger (and another) fish.


----------



## alcopop (Feb 11, 2016)

I should have thought that the increased footfall generated by pop would have made up for any  downside.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Yes, it must be massively frustrating to have competition arrive on your doorstep after such a short time,  but it is a part of the risk of starting up a business. The flower guy outside the station may have been a bit peeved when Flower Love opened....but that is the nature of commercial ventures. There's always a bigger (and another) fish.


Except this particular bigger fish is a Lambeth-backed 'community' venture and claims to be all about supporting local start ups. 

I'd also say that apart from being in a much better location, the flower shop at the station is some distance from Flower Love and there's some difference in their offerings.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2016)

alcopop said:


> I should have thought that the increased footfall generated by pop would have made up for any  downside.


Things don't always work out that way. It very much depends on the demographics of the new footfall footfall being generated.

I don't think the Electric Ave street markets have particular benefited from the increased footfall heading to the Village/Market Row, for example.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 11, 2016)

If there is not also some difference between the offerings of Flower Love and the new place it would seem a bit unimaginative. Are they the same?


----------



## Rushy (Feb 11, 2016)

So hang on. The increased foot fall generated by Pop is the wrong sort of customer for Flower Love. But the right sort for Pop flowers. And the demographic served by Flower Love cannot afford Pop. Does that not mean they can coexist quite happily?


----------



## alcopop (Feb 11, 2016)

editor said:


> Things don't always work out that way. It very much depends on the demographics of the new footfall footfall being generated.
> 
> I don't think the Electric Ave street markets have particular benefited from the increased footfall heading to the Village/Market Row, for example.



So the new flower shop will surely be aimed at a different demographic?


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2016)

alcopop said:


> So the new flower shop will surely be aimed at a different demographic?


Maybe, but placing it right opposite the existing one still seems a bit rich, given what Pop is supposed to represent, no?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 11, 2016)

Another business selling flowers is no different to another business selling coffee or anothe bar selling beer or another club selling entertainment. This competition has always been here. I may not like one lot as opposed to another and so I choose with my pennies....but I don't resent competition.

It's flowers ffs....and they are a luxury item imo. If a cheap local grocer was being displaced I might be more concerned...


----------



## alcopop (Feb 11, 2016)

editor said:


> Maybe, but placing it right opposite the existing one still seems a bit rich, given what Pop is supposed to represent, no?



Competition is good for the consumer.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 11, 2016)

It's official.
"Too many flowers at Pop".


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2016)

alcopop said:


> Competition is good for the consumer.


If it's on a level playing field, yes.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 11, 2016)

That's not helpful.

"Too many flowers at Pop"


----------



## alcopop (Feb 11, 2016)

Rushy said:


> So hang on. The increased foot fall generated by Pop is the wrong sort of customer for Flower Love. But the right sort for Pop flowers. And the demographic served by Flower Love cannot afford Pop. Does that not mean they can coexist quite happily?



This.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 11, 2016)

editor said:


> If it's on a level playing field, yes.



I do remember, back when it all started, that this project was promised to compliment but not compete with existing local business.

That was probably me taking to much notice of the PR Fluff I suppose. Not being a hard headed believer in the virtues of the good old free market competition.

Does make me wonder how much  influence the board overseeing Pop has on the day to day management of Pop in reality.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 11, 2016)

It will always come down to good old free market competition.

No business is in the business of losing money....or even sharing money....they are in the profit business....and getting as much as they can.

Aside from those hobby boutiques that just exist to give bored wealthy folk something to do....they just exist to keep someone entertained between holidays.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 11, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> It will always come down to good old free market competition.
> 
> No business is in the business of losing money....or even sharing money....they are in the profit business....and getting as much as they can.
> 
> Aside from those hobby boutiques that just exist to give bored wealthy folk something to do....they just exist to keep someone entertained between holidays.



Capitalism is a pretty crap system.


----------



## elmpp (Feb 11, 2016)

editor said:


> To have any hope of clinching the 'deeply creative visual designer' job they force you to sign up to something called the Escape Community, who then offer to spam you weekly. Snappy T&C too: Terms and Conditions - Escape the City


Seriously scrapping the barrel now


----------



## leanderman (Feb 12, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Capitalism is a pretty crap system.



Yep. Almost as bad as all the others!


----------



## Winot (Feb 12, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Capitalism is a pretty crap system.



You're not seriously arguing for state-run flower stalls though?

"Too many flowers at Pop"


----------



## CH1 (Feb 12, 2016)

Actually it's not just Pop Brixton it's Pop Communities now:
Marketing Coordinator : Pop Brixton  @ Pop Communities on Escape The City


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 12, 2016)

a lot of what people love about brixton came from the free market. people with business ideas combined with love of what they are doing. the key is to tax them all fairly, the bigger ones paying more, of course. 

i do agree though, the council shouldn't be in the business of undercuting people though.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 12, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> i do agree though, the council shouldn't be in the business of undercuting people though.



Do you mean that the units in pop should be rented out at market rate?


----------



## alcopop (Feb 12, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Do you mean that the units in pop should be rented out at market rate?



I thought that the units at pop were really expensive? 

Wasn't that one of the criticisms of it?


----------



## teuchter (Feb 12, 2016)

alcopop said:


> I thought that the units at pop were really expensive?
> 
> Wasn't that one of the criticisms of it?


It's hard to keep track of what the all of latest criticisms are.

I think you can choose between "too cheap" and "too expensive" depending what argument you are making.


----------



## deadringer (Feb 12, 2016)

If they'd have grown the flowers in the polytunnel for sale at the Pop flower shop that would have been a real conundrum!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 12, 2016)

I did think that earlier today....

....but in reality, a pop flower stall selling pop grown flowers would be a good thing....


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 12, 2016)

They could only sell POPpies then

Sorry, worse internet joke ever


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 12, 2016)

Free live Reggae tonight:


----------



## superfly101 (Feb 12, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> They could only sell POPpies then
> 
> Sorry, worse internet joke ever



Miss Nadia Popov 







When you want to rent a ghost "container"


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2016)

deadringer said:


> If they'd have grown the flowers in the polytunnel for sale at the Pop flower shop that would have been a real conundrum!


Growing hops would make more sense. In fact, growing anything there would be a start


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2016)

Winot said:


> You're not seriously arguing for state-run flower stalls though?
> 
> "Too many flowers at Pop"



The more serious point I was making was that the original idea of this meanwhile use was to complement existing business.

Its got a board made up of local groups like Brixton Pound to oversee Pop. So my question is what actual influence they have on the day to day letting of the units is.

Does seem somewhat insensitive to let a unit out in direct competition to an existing stall holder in the market right outside Pop who is already doing the same thing.

I will still keep buying her plants. Supporting existing local business.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Do you mean that the units in pop should be rented out at market rate?



Yes.

The whole Future Brixton/ Third Way ( beloved by the likes of Cllr Hopkins) attempt to mix social good with commercial business is an unhappy marriage that as this pages of discussion just winds people up either way.

As I said pages back as a pragmatic realist that Capitalism isnt just going away soon it would have been better for the Council to let the land out as a purely commercial enterprise and used the money to fund good works elsewhere.

It would be interesting to see if Pop could exist in the world of the free market. Rather than getting the land free with a profit share for the Council IF it makes a profit.

I would also like an independent audit of Pop to see what actual good effect its having on Brixton as a whole.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Yep. Almost as bad as all the others!



I don’t know. The man in the off license was extolling the virtues of Cuban socialism to me last week.

They are experimenting with a limited private enterprise. For example my friend who was there recently could rent rooms in peoples houses and get taxi rides.Its basically legitimising the black economy that existed in State run communist systems. 

There is something to be said for allowing a limited amount of free enterprise in a communist system. It is back sliding reformism though.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> The more serious point I was making was that the original idea of this meanwhile use was to complement existing business.
> 
> Its got a board made up of local groups like Brixton Pound to oversee Pop. So my question is what actual influence they have on the day to day letting of the units is.
> 
> ...


Doing it just before Valentine's Day is a real kick in the teeth, and you know what's even worse? They're fucking off as soon as Valentines is over.

And just in case Pop Brixton wasn't putting the boot enough into a local business operating right outside their doors, they've given the other lot - who have no local connections, of course - a big glowing review on their site.

So great to see Pop encouraging an established, internationally publicised, Hackney business at the expense of local start up.  

Pop Brixton



Why flowers are the hot new thing right now - CNN.com

*Oh and just to make something crystal clear. I have nothing against this particular business. My beef is with Pop Brixton's management


----------



## teuchter (Feb 13, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Yes.
> 
> The whole Future Brixton/ Third Way ( beloved by the likes of Cllr Hopkins) attempt to mix social good with commercial business is an unhappy marriage that as this pages of discussion just winds people up either way.
> 
> ...


I sort-of agree.

But I don't think you'd accept a similar argument for the network rail arches - ie, they should pay market rent, not be given an unfair advantage over other similar businesses in the area whose landlords are increasing rents. And that Network Rail - a public body like the council - should let as a commercial enterprise and use the money to fund good works elswhere.


----------



## Ms T (Feb 13, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I don’t know. The man in the off license was extolling the virtues of Cuban socialism to me last week.
> 
> They are experimenting with a limited private enterprise. For example my friend who was there recently could rent rooms in peoples houses and get taxi rides.Its basically legitimising the black economy that existed in State run communist systems.
> 
> There is something to be said for allowing a limited amount of free enterprise in a communist system. It is back sliding reformism though.


The system where you're not allowed to use the Internet?


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

Rushy said:


> If there is not also some difference between the offerings of Flower Love and the new place it would seem a bit unimaginative. Are they the same?



We are very similar, flowers, wrapping, style but hey this is business but really appreciate editor raising the issue and Gramsci for the support. Bit of a slap in the face but it will not stop me from building my business. If anything it makes me more determined! Thanks also to reubeness.


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> The more serious point I was making was that the original idea of this meanwhile use was to complement existing business.
> 
> Its got a board made up of local groups like Brixton Pound to oversee Pop. So my question is what actual influence they have on the day to day letting of the units is.
> 
> ...





editor said:


> Doing it just before Valentine's Day is a real kick in the teeth, and you know what's even worse? They're fucking off as soon as Valentines is over.
> 
> And just in case Pop Brixton wasn't putting the boot enough into a local business operating right outside their doors, they've given the other lot - who have no local connections, of course - a big glowing review on their site.
> 
> ...


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

Thanks guy's, really appreciate your support.


----------



## alcopop (Feb 14, 2016)

Flower Love said:


> Thanks guy's, really appreciate your support.


Do you think that you get extra walk in business from people going to pop?


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

alcopop said:


> Do you think that you get extra walk in business from people going to pop?



I actually do quite a few weekly contracts in Pop and they have been very loyal, it was those businesses that came and told me about the florist being there. I would say I get business especially on Saturday so I do benefit its just so annoying them being so similar to me and at Valentines week


----------



## Rushy (Feb 14, 2016)

Flower Love said:


> I actually do quite a few weekly contracts in Pop and they have been very loyal, it was those businesses that came and told me about the florist being there. I would say I get business especially on Saturday so I do benefit its just so annoying them being so similar to me and at Valentines week


I have not seen their stall. From their PR guff their offering sounds different but hard to say without seeing it for myself. Either way, I can see that this week might be annoying. But on the whole, with quite a few loyal weekly contracts and extra passing trade especially on Saturday's, it sounds like you are doing decent business on the back of Pop (which is great).

Pop was not there yet when you originally set up your business at what was the quieter end of the market. If their having a flower stall for two weeks is a slap in the face, in the interest of balance, how would you describe Pop's contribution to your business on the other 50 weeks. A warm hug, perhaps?


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

Rushy said:


> I have not seen their stall. From their PR guff their offering sounds different but hard to say without seeing it for myself. Either way, I can see that this week might be annoying. But on the whole, with quite a few loyal weekly contracts and extra passing trade especially on Saturday's, it sounds like you are doing decent business on the back of Pop (which is great).
> 
> Pop was not there yet when you originally set up your business at what was the quieter end of the market. If their having a flower stall for two weeks is a slap in the face, in the interest of balance, how would you describe Pop's contribution to your business on the other 50 weeks. A warm hug, perhaps?



Apart from the nudity and the fact they are a longer running and more established business theres not much difference to be honest which is where the slight slap in the face comes from. If they were completely different to me then it would not have bothered me so much but regardless and as you rightly say, I have benefited from the footfall and new business so i can't complain too much so long as I don't lose business due to them being there should they decide to take up a permanent spot! We will just have to see what happens and yes I have felt a slight warm hug. 
Pop also invited


----------



## alcopop (Feb 14, 2016)

Flower Love said:


> Apart from the nudity and the fact they are a longer running and more established business theres not much difference to be honest which is where the slight slap in the face comes from. If they were completely different to me then it would not have bothered me so much but regardless and as you rightly say, I have benefited from the footfall and new business so i can't complain too much so long as I don't lose business due to them being there should they decide to take up a permanent spot! We will just have to see what happens and yes I have felt a slight warm hug.
> Pop also invited



nudity!!???!!??


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

alcopop said:


> nudity!!???!!??


 Yes nudity is their USP. Their marketing is of naked women with strategically placed flora


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

alcopop said:


> I thought that the units at pop were really expensive?
> 
> Wasn't that one of the criticisms of it?



They are expensive which is why when invited to get one, by Pop, I had to say no and was then informed that if I did not take it then they would get another florist! (so community spirited!) I also like being out in the actual market and being accessible to everyone. Many Lambeth residents, especially the older generation, don't go in there


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)




----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 14, 2016)

Ms T said:


> The system where you're not allowed to use the Internet?


..


----------



## Rushy (Feb 14, 2016)

Flower Love said:


> Apart from the nudity


 Crikey. Not sure how I missed that!

There are two different florists in there aren't there? The beardy guys and a girl specialising in "wild" arrangements.

Anyway. I wish you the best of luck. You are lucky that you really don't need to make crowds walk far from Pop. Just need to think about the best ways to grab their attention from your pitch (Not nudity. It's too cold and it's apparently been done already).

On it's own Flower Love is a great name. I'd be tempted to add "of Brixton"  "of Brixton Market"  just because you have so many Pop visitors apparently buying into the area.  Do you do any branding, e.g. wrapping paper/labels/tape?


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I sort-of agree.
> 
> But I don't think you'd accept a similar argument for the network rail arches - ie, they should pay market rent, not be given an unfair advantage over other similar businesses in the area whose landlords are increasing rents. And that Network Rail - a public body like the council - should let as a commercial enterprise and use the money to fund good works elswhere.



As you know NR argument is that they plough back profits into the rail service. That they have obligation to maximise revenue from there assets.

At last LJ neighbourhood planning meeting heard rumour that this government is going to stop this. Will make NR basically sell off arches once and once and for all on very long leases. Implication being that property developers will buy up the arches and then rent them out.  ie a form of privatisation. So NR will lose its monopoly of being the owner and developer of its arches and lose the regular revenue it got on a year to year basis.

Even NR are not at all happy about this. Interesting as NR can be said to have successfully redeveloped the arches they own. They saw the potential of there arches. There was glowing article in Evening Standard property porn about what a great job NR were doing. So well that this Tory government see its mates in property development should now have it. 

As for Pop- this is Council owned land. As Cllr Hopkins never tires of telling us its one of the few ways the Council can have an influence on the growing "gentrification" of the area. And we should all take part in the discussion ( attending Future Brixton consultations etc) how economic growth should bring benefits for all.

Both the Council and arguably NR ( classified as a publicly owned asset) should take into account local communities imo.

This all shows, as my Trot friend would say, that Capitalism is not about social equity. As has been said here business is about profit. Anything else is pipedreams.

My Trot friends would say whatever reforms or attempts to say offer less than "market" value will not work or lead to perverse outcomes. ie who should have less than so called "market" rent. There is not a perfect answer to this under the present state of affairs.

I wonder what will happen to the "start ups" using the Meanwhile space up at LJ if the arches up there are tarted up and rented at whatever the "market" value is.

The system does not work. Unless ones wonderful entrepreneurial idea leads one to becoming the next big thing ( Starbucks started small) one is likely not to survive in a free market Capitalist system without interfering with the market ( rent controls being one). Its not how it works.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2016)

In case anyone missed, here's a Flower Love feature on Buzz from last year. 

There's no point me covering the Hackney lot as they've already gone, no doubt after doing very well for themselves with their perfectly-timed opportunistic spell at Pop. 

We pay a visit to Flower Love London florists on Pope’s Road, Brixton Market


----------



## Flower Love (Feb 14, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Crikey. Not sure how I missed that!
> 
> There are two different florists in there aren't there? The beardy guys and a girl specialising in "wild" arrangements.
> 
> ...



 

There are two but one is an event florist who has been there for a while and doesn't really sell flowers, she is part of Co Pop a collective of organisations all working together in one container. Beardy guys are marketing for the "wild" florist which has been there this past week.

Thank you very much and yes far too cold to get naked  

I do have logo labels with my details on the reverses well as a banner and am looking into branded ribbon at the moment its pretty expensive but def worth investing in. I quite like the idea  using Brixton and had considered it when deciding on a name but thought using London would have a wider appeal and better online search results. 

Will def be thinking about visibility more moving forward!


----------



## Rushy (Feb 14, 2016)

Flower Love said:


> There are two but one is an event florist who has been there for a while and doesn't really sell flowers, she is part of Co Pop a collective of organisations all working together in one container. Beardy guys are marketing for the "wild" florist which has been there this past week.
> 
> Thank you very much and yes far too cold to get naked
> 
> ...


Own Brixton first. Then own London!


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2016)

Flower Love said:


> There are two but one is an event florist who has been there for a while and doesn't really sell flowers, she is part of Co Pop a collective of organisations all working together in one container. Beardy guys are marketing for the "wild" florist which has been there this past week.
> 
> Thank you very much and yes far too cold to get naked
> 
> ...


You're already on the first page of Google results for 'brixton florist' thanks to the Buzz article


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2016)

Flower Love said:


> They are expensive which is why when invited to get one, by Pop, I had to say no and was then informed that if I did not take it then they would get another florist! (so community spirited!)


Another kick in the teeth, right there!


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2016)

Imagine how much better it could have been if Flower Love had been offered an affordable rent and if Pop had delivered on its original promise of providing a project that led heavily on gardening, food growth and community involvement. Instead of Adidas takeovers, multinational cinemas and booze-focused promotions in a sterile tent we could have something that really set Brixton apart. Oh well....


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## Rushy (Feb 15, 2016)

editor said:


> Imagine how much better it could have been if Flower Love had been offered an affordable rent and if Pop had delivered on its original promise of providing a project that led heavily on gardening, food growth and community involvement. Instead of Adidas takeovers, multinational cinemas and booze-focused promotions in a sterile tent we could have something that really set Brixton apart. Oh well....


Did Flower Love apply for one of the subsidised units?

I don't think any of them are retail. Retail was specifically used to subsidise the cheaper units as I recall.


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## teuchter (Feb 15, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> As you know NR argument is that they plough back profits into the rail service. That they have obligation to maximise revenue from there assets.
> 
> At last LJ neighbourhood planning meeting heard rumour that this government is going to stop this. Will make NR basically sell off arches once and once and for all on very long leases. Implication being that property developers will buy up the arches and then rent them out.  ie a form of privatisation. So NR will lose its monopoly of being the owner and developer of its arches and lose the regular revenue it got on a year to year basis.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure you've really answered my point. You say both Lambeth and NR should "take into account local communities" - I agree. But you seem to advocate Lambeth [indirectly] renting out the pop units at "market rate" so as not to give unfair competition to other businesses - whilst objecting to NR raising the arch rents to "market rate". Why the different approach according to location?


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## Flower Love (Feb 15, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Did Flower Love apply for one of the subsidised units?
> 
> I don't think any of them are retail. Retail was specifically used to subsidise the cheaper units as I recall.



I didn't, wanted to be out in the main market tbh


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## Nanker Phelge (Feb 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I'm not sure you've really answered my point. You say both Lambeth and NR should "take into account local communities" - I agree. But you seem to advocate Lambeth [indirectly] renting out the pop units at "market rate" so as not to give unfair competition to other businesses - whilst objecting to NR raising the arch rents to "market rate". Why the different approach according to location?



I think this is a really fair question and I hope it is not ignored or shouted down.

Fair = fair?

If we are asking for a level playing field.....


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I'm not sure you've really answered my point. You say both Lambeth and NR should "take into account local communities" - I agree. But you seem to advocate Lambeth [indirectly] renting out the pop units at "market rate" so as not to give unfair competition to other businesses - whilst objecting to NR raising the arch rents to "market rate". Why the different approach according to location?



What I was saying was that under Capitalism any attempt at ameliorating it does not work well. So there is no way around the fairness argument as capitalism is not about fairness. Any brake on it will stop worst effects but not solve this problem.

As posters here have said business is about making a profit.

I think rent controls should be brought in for commercial premises whether private or Council owned across the board. That would be as fair as one could get. But its not going to happen.

If there is really to be a level playing field its not going to be under the present system.

Any method of reforming it or putting a brake on it, as I said, is going to be messy and liable to contradictory in its effects.

I am not saying that Lambeth rent out units at market rent. This land is due at some point for redevelopment. Not same as NR arches.

This is temporary experiment- apparently- though Cllr Hopkins thinks its a great success. So I doubt there will be much in the way of discussion of how it worked, what it achieved or not will take place.

Given I think Pop is a waste of time for reasons I have already given I am suggesting that as a temporary measure Lambeth lease the land out and be done with it.

Or they could have simply left alone for the time being. Instead of the wind up it is now. Which has instead of bringing people together has caused more divisions in the community.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 15, 2016)

the real problems facing brixton imo is not so much the businesses. small businesses make or break an area. they can add massive value. everyone loves good places to shop, eat, drink, dance, etc, etc.

the real problem is massive rents and house prices. My dad's mate, a builder, just a small indy one who works for himself but has a "team" of tradesman that he gathers for work, five or so of them, he probably makes 50-60k a year on a good year, bought a six bedroom house in west norwood in the 80s. he inhereted a bit, but still. A SIX bedroom house in west Norwood. who can afford those places now? bankers and lawyers, and not many more. There are going to be no average joes, no 2.4 kids and 30k house hold incomes type people left in zones 1-3, other than those in council accommodation, which is never very roomy or conducive to growing families as it is. the real tragedy is our city is either for the transient, those in social housing, or the very, very, very rich. our city is being taken from beneath us. i am a home owner but i think what this city needs more than anything, even more than houses being built, is a massive fuck off house price crash. 

all this analysing and slating small businesses in brixton is just periphery stuff. I know it is linked but i think even if you took all the yuppie businesses and posh markets out of brixton, the rents and house prices would still rise and rise and rise.


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## teuchter (Feb 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Do you mean that the units in pop should be rented out at market rate?





Gramsci said:


> Yes.


....


Gramsci said:


> I am not saying that Lambeth rent out units at market rent.



Gramsci I'm confused.




Gramsci said:


> This land is due at some point for redevelopment. Not same as NR arches.



Redevelopment is exactly what NR want to do with the arches. Isn't that what everyone's objecting to?

I still don't get why a different approach should be applied to the two different pieces of land.

I think you are sort of saying that in your opinion Pop is a big failure and so might as well be scrapped. Is that it? Then what? Lambeth rent out that land at market rate, or at subsidised rate?


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## Gramsci (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> ....
> 
> 
> Gramsci I'm confused.
> ...



The land Pop is on has no existing tenants to be turfed off for redevelopment. That is the difference.

As posters keep going on that people like me got Grow: Brixton / Pop wrong, was always going to be commercial not a hippy pipe dream, then I dont see the point of it. Just lease the land out until its needed for permanent redevelopment.


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> A SIX bedroom house in west Norwood. who can afford those places now? bankers and lawyers, and not many more.


I was chatting to a barrister last weekend. He bought a 4 bed family house in Thornton Heath last year. When I asked why he'd chosen there he said it was the closest place to Brixton where he could afford a house instead of a flat. He and his wife have decided to bugger off to the states (where she's from).

I think the market has perhaps turned lately, our at least faltered. There's a lot of unsold places with price reduction alerts coming through Rightmove. Problem is, there are already residential developments being stalled as a result.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 16, 2016)

Rushy said:


> I was chatting to a barrister last weekend. He bought a 4 bed family house in Thornton Heath last year. When I asked why he'd chosen there he said it was the closest place to Brixton where he could afford a house instead of a flat. He and his wife have decided to bugger off to the states (where she's from).
> 
> I think the market has perhaps turned lately, our at least faltered. There's a lot of unsold places with price reduction alerts coming through Rightmove. Problem is, there are already residential developments being stalled as a result.



that's where I live. You can get a good three bed with a garden for between 300-400k, you can get a semidetached for above that. it's a strange place. Look on right move and the whole of south london is pretty much unaffordable and then slap in the middle you have this small pocket of affordability called Thornton Heath. Some roads i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, but others are completely fine. it's exactly full of the people i describe - lower middle class families with average cars on their drive.


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## Hoss (Feb 16, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> that's where I live. You can get a good three bed with a garden for between 300-400k, you can get a semidetached for above that. it's a strange place. Look on right move and the whole of south london is pretty much unaffordable and then slap in the middle you have this small pocket of affordability called Thornton Heath. Some roads i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, but others are completely fine. it's exactly full of the people i describe - lower middle class families with average cars on their drive.



We're trying to buy a family home in the area at the moment and our experience is very much that asking prices of between 3-400k translate to an actual selling price of way over £400k. It's a pretty depressing state of affairs as the buyers are turning out to be developers and professional landlords with deposits of 200k plus. Impossible to compete with.


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## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

Hoss said:


> We're trying to buy a family home in the area at the moment and our experience is very much that asking prices of between 3-400k translate to an actual selling price of way over £400k. It's a pretty depressing state of affairs as the buyers are turning out to be developers and professional landlords with deposits of 200k plus. Impossible to compete with.


I sincerely hope at some point in the future that all these wildly profiteering landlords, developers and buy to letters get what's coming to them. They're like a fucking cancer in the area.


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## Hoss (Feb 16, 2016)

editor said:


> I sincerely hope at some point in the future that all these wildly profiteering landlords, developers and buy to letters get what's coming to them. They're like a fucking cancer in the area.



Watching them at open house events measuring up walls and side returns to work out if an extra room can be squeezed in here or there and then asking agents about the yield is pretty much commonplace at every single viewing we've been to. They're parasites. The EA's are no better. I was recently told and without a trace of irony  'The vendor would prefer the house was bought by a family but I'd prefer to sell it to someone who will rent it out via me'.


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## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

Hoss said:


> Watching them at open house events measuring up walls and side returns to work out if an extra room can be squeezed in here or there and then asking agents about the yield is pretty much commonplace at every single viewing we've been to. They're parasites. The EA's are no better. I was recently told and without a trace of irony  'The vendor would prefer the house was bought by a family but I'd prefer to sell it to someone who will rent it out via me'.


Interestingly, that's the entire modus operandi of Pop partners, The Collective, who pride themselves on how many  System Living Design units they can squeeze into a building. Or 'micro housing' as the 'leading lifestyle brand' describes it.







People don't need "excessive amounts of space–as long as it’s well designed," they claim.

UK’s The Collective Offers Whole System Design Living


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## leanderman (Feb 16, 2016)

A chancellor has finally acted to rein in the tax breaks that support buy-to-let. But, as politicians like to say, 'too little, too late'.


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## Hoss (Feb 16, 2016)

editor Quite. Living space is massively overrated anyway.


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

I don't see why there should be an objection in principle to the approach of "The Collective" - as far as I can see they are building stuff that certain people want but doesn't really exist at the moment. Living in shared houses, especially for people in their 20s/early 30s is well established in London and what they are offering is a kind of version of that, where the individual's private space is fairly minimal, but they have also have access to larger communal spaces. If you don't spend lots of time at home why waste square metres that you mainly only use for sleeping? Furthermore an emphasis on good and intelligent design to get the most out of available space should be encouraged - it's the opposite to the kind of approach that produces the crappy awkward spaces that many people end up living in, in houses that have been clumsily split up into poky flats with landlords who have little interest in the actual *quality* of the space as long as they can wedge a single bed in there somehow.

The fact is, space for housing is at a premium in London now, and good living space for younger, single people is hard to come by. "The Collective" as far as I can see aren't exploiting low-income families or trying to build social housing at lower space standards than is supposed to be allowed - they are building housing that fills a bit of a niche in the market and offering a certain demographic - not an especially disadvantaged one - something that is probably rather more attractive than many of the alternatives.


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## alcopop (Feb 16, 2016)

Isn't the population density really low compared to other capital cities?


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> Isn't the population density really low compared to other capital cities?


Generally the existing housing density in London is quite a bit lower than most other European cities yes. Especially around the centre.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 16, 2016)

Hoss said:


> Watching them at open house events measuring up walls and side returns to work out if an extra room can be squeezed in here or there and then asking agents about the yield is pretty much commonplace at every single viewing we've been to. They're parasites. The EA's are no better. I was recently told and without a trace of irony  'The vendor would prefer the house was bought by a family but I'd prefer to sell it to someone who will rent it out via me'.



yes, it sucks. we're quite lucky because our house, although 3 bed, is just not quit big enough to convert. that said, we still have a fair few "HMO"s in the street with ten or so packed in, with a little shed thing in the back for a few more. The general rule seem in thornton heath seems the further away from the high street the houses are, the better they are and the roads are cleaner, with less over-crowding. Also try Selhurst but again some of the roads are shocking, swirls of rubbish, fly tips everywhere, people crammed in, front gardens used as rubbish dumps, etc.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 16, 2016)

family home in thornton heath. 15 min drive from brixton. zone 4.

how much would this cost in brixton? 

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-39946221.html


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

leanderman said:


> A chancellor has finally acted to rein in the tax breaks that support buy-to-let. But, as politicians like to say, 'too little, too late'.


To be more precise, he has declared that bank finance costs will no longer be an allowable business expense for some, mainly smaller, landlords. So for every £1 paid to the bank those landlords will pay a 20-25p levy to HMRC. Corporates like Lexadon or Golfrate, international investment syndicates like the one which has purchased from Fergus Wilson, or family trust companies (and basically anyone with Ltd after their name) etc.. will be exempt from this and still be allowed to treat all finance costs as a business cost.

They also bought in the 3% extra on stamp duty for second homes/ buy to lets but have exempted anyone buying 15 or more homes at a time.

I was chatting to someone who lobbies for various funds. In effect, the funds could see that lots of individuals were making returns from one or two buy to lets and wanted to get in on it. Osbourne is clearing the mom n pop landlords out of the way to make way for corporates.


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## stdP (Feb 16, 2016)

Rushy said:


> I was chatting to someone who lobbies for various funds. In effect, the funds could see that lots of individuals were making returns from one or two buy to lets and wanted to get in on it. Osbourne is clearing the mom n pop landlords out of the way to make way for corporates.



Indeed, that's my take on the whole thing as well. Expect a lot of people to offload their no-longer-profitable BtL's on to the lettings management companies who are doing such wonders for bringing up the standard of living for everyday londoners. It's a damned good job that most of these aren't owned by vampiric private equity groups using galloping rent increases to create Rental-Backed Securities. Nothing at all like MBS and definitely not the source of a market bubble that everyone's pension schemes are being invested in. Nope. Not one bit.


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I don't see why there should be an objection in principle to the approach of "The Collective" - as far as I can see they are building stuff that certain people want but doesn't really exist at the moment. Living in shared houses, especially for people in their 20s/early 30s is well established in London and what they are offering is a kind of version of that, where the individual's private space is fairly minimal, but they have also have access to larger communal spaces. If you don't spend lots of time at home why waste square metres that you mainly only use for sleeping? Furthermore an emphasis on good and intelligent design to get the most out of available space should be encouraged - it's the opposite to the kind of approach that produces the crappy awkward spaces that many people end up living in, in houses that have been clumsily split up into poky flats with landlords who have little interest in the actual *quality* of the space as long as they can wedge a single bed in there somehow.
> 
> The fact is, space for housing is at a premium in London now, and good living space for younger, single people is hard to come by. "The Collective" as far as I can see aren't exploiting low-income families or trying to build social housing at lower space standards than is supposed to be allowed - they are building housing that fills a bit of a niche in the market and offering a certain demographic - not an especially disadvantaged one - something that is probably rather more attractive than many of the alternatives.


Y Cube in Mitcham by the YMCA is an interesting case study in housing politics. It has been lauded for providing housing at 65% of the market rent price of a one bed flat. But to achieve this, the developer has been allowed to build 26sqm starter homes. This is just over half the size of the minimum standard for a new one bedroom flat. It has been described as bold and innovative.


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## leanderman (Feb 16, 2016)

stdP said:


> Expect a lot of people to offload their no-longer-profitable BtL's on to ... lettings management companies



This might happen, to an extent. Or it might not. 

But it doesn't mean that it was wrong to take (some) action.


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

Is there any reason to suppose that corporate landlords tend to be worse landlords than private BtL landlords? My experience with private landlords has been that most of them are rubbish - they don't really know anything about how to maintain buildings, continually sending round useless tradespersons to attempt to fix leaking showers or broken boilers. Negotiations with them are frequently complicated by the fact they have an emotional investment in the building they are letting out, so they refuse various changes that would make the living quarters more suitable for the people actually living there, or they get involved in choices about tenants based on irrational prejudices which can make trying to manage a shared house, for example, a nightmare, or lead to tenants being evicted to resolve a problem that wouldn't have been a problem if dealt with professionally. They frequently don't even have much awareness of what their actual legal obligations are or what the rights of ther tenants are.

They often employ incompetent "lettings management" companies, usually basically estate agents who rip both them and the tenants off, and don't actually add anything useful to the process, because they are ultimately still subject to the whims of the landlord when it comes to decision-making.

Not all small-scale landlords are like this of course but I'd venture that the majority of them are.

I think there's a lot to be said, in theory at least, for having as a landlord, a company whose main business is letting properties and have all the systems and knowledge in place to do this properly, and who are viewing the letting of their properties as a long-term business rather than a convenient method of investing some capital for a few years until they kick all their tenants out and sell up.

As far as I'm aware, it's much more the norm in places like Germany that landlords will be companies rather than individuals, and rental properties tend to be better maintained and managed.


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> As far as I'm aware, it's much more the norm in places like Germany that landlords will be companies rather than individuals, and rental properties tend to be better maintained and managed.



This is incorrect.  The  majority of rental property in Germany is let by individuals with less than 15 properties (about 60% iirc). Company owned properties count for a small proportion and social even smaller. I'll try to dig out the study.

Germany incentivises holding property longer. E.g. No capital gains tax after holding for ten years. Here you pay about 30%. Very little inheritance tax - here it is 40%. They even let you write off about 2-3% of the value of the property every year as devaluation (in London that could easily equate to half your rent as yields are about 4%). And landlords are not limited to offsetting their costs against rent. They can offset it against all of their income. It's very very generous.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 16, 2016)

From when I used to rent my experience was similar to teuchter I have to say. Small landlords tend to be terrible with maintenance IME - bigger ones will properly budget for repairs etc while people with one property are often really reluctant to do anything. I remember one idiot coming round trying to fix a gas boiler himself rather than pay someone actually qualified.


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

Rushy said:


> This is incorrect.  The  majority of rental property in Germany is let by individuals with less than 15 properties (about 60% iirc). Company owned properties count for a small proportion and social even smaller. I'll try to dig out the study.



Someone who owns 14 properties or even 10 is not the same as a BtL owner who has one or two. Someone with that many properties is likely to deal with them more like a company than an individual would.

I'd be interested to know how the proportion of property let by individuals with less than, say, 3 properties compares though.


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Germany incentivises holding property longer. E.g. No capital gains tax after holding for ten years. Here you pay about 30%. Very little inheritance tax - here it is 40%. They even let you write off about 2-3% of the value of the property every year as devaluation (in London that could easily equate to half your rent as yields are about 4%). And landlords are not limited to offsetting their costs against rent. They can offset it against all of their income. It's very very generous.



They have some form of rent control though, dont they? Or maybe not in Germany. I think they do in Austria at least, was talking to someone recently telling me their landlord was very limited in terms of how much they could raise the rent, because the flat had been tenanted by her family for a long period.


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Someone who owns 14 properties or even 10 is not the same as a BtL owner who has one or two. Someone with that many properties is likely to deal with them more like a company than an individual would.
> 
> I'd be interested to know how the proportion of property let by individuals with less than, say, 3 properties compares though.


In Germany, as much of Europe, a lot more people live in small blocks of flats (that's why their density is usually higher than London). A quite typical model is an owner of one block of flats handed down through their family, lives in one flat and rents the others in the block out. I think that is why the 15 number is used. 

In any case, the new tax rules will not stop individuals buying one or two new houses through spv companies. And will at the same time stuff lots of individual landlords with 10+ properties. It's very random.


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## alcopop (Feb 16, 2016)

Rushy said:


> In Germany, as much of Europe, a lot more people live in small blocks of flats (that's why their density is usually higher than London). A quite typical model is an owner of one block of flats handed down through their family, lives in one flat and rents the others in the block out. I think that is why the 15 number is.


I would agree with this based on Germans i have known.


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> They have some form of rent control though, dont they? Or maybe not in Germany. I think they do in Austria at least, was talking to someone recently telling me their landlord was very limited in terms of how much they could raise the rent, because the flat had been tenanted by her family for a long period.


I think the general rule is that rent cannot be raised in the course of a tenancy by more than 15% in any three year period.  

And in Berlin only, as of last year, new tenancies cannot be more than 10% above market average (I've no idea how you would properly calculate that taking into account different standards etc..)


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## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

Rent is out of fucking control and needs to be seriously reigned in, but there's no chance of that with a Tory government and a Tory-like Lambeth Council in charge:


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## Nanker Phelge (Feb 16, 2016)

Rent and house prices are out of control in Brixton, yet there are people willing to compete to pay to be here. My Son's Mum just sold her 2 bedroom flat on Brixton Hill for a significant amount more than it was marketed at. She had three couples competing for it.

She's packing Brixton in after 30 years of living here and heading back up north where she can afford to buy something twice as big for 33% of what she is making....it's bonkers really...


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## alcopop (Feb 16, 2016)

editor said:


> Rent is out of fucking control and needs to be seriously reigned in, but there's no chance of that with a Tory government and a Tory-like Lambeth Council in charge:





*Gerlinde* ‏@ggniewosz  3h3 hours ago
@leanderroadsw2 If new social tenant moving to Cressingham needs 1 bed then rent is £204/wk or £265/wk for a 2 bed.


£265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

Rushy said:


> In Germany, as much of Europe, a lot more people live in small blocks of flats (that's why their density is usually higher than London). A quite typical model is an owner of one block of flats handed down through their family, lives in one flat and rents the others in the block out. I think that is why the 15 number is used.


I see, fair enough. In fact that model matches what I observed when I briefly lived in Germany. Still though, it's quite a different set-up with different motivations to the typical UK BtL arrangement - economies of scale when it comes to maintenance, the likelihood of it being sold at any one point, the fact that the owner actually lives in the block and in contact with their tenants.


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I see, fair enough. In fact that model matches what I observed when I briefly lived in Germany. Still though, it's quite a different set-up with different motivations to the typical UK BtL arrangement - economies of scale when it comes to maintenance, the likelihood of it being sold at any one point, the fact that the owner actually lives in the block and in contact with their tenants.


Try telling that to my German friends living in several such blocks. Damp not dealt with. Nothing ever fixed. Really grumpy landlady. Same old stuff with a few added quirks,e.g. Had to put in their own fitted kitchen (that's the norm). And actually, they desperately want to buy but no one is selling (the tax advantages are way too good!). Wasn't someone after some rose tinted specs the other day?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> *Gerlinde* ‏@ggniewosz  3h3 hours ago
> @leanderroadsw2 If new social tenant moving to Cressingham needs 1 bed then rent is £204/wk or £265/wk for a 2 bed.
> 
> 
> £265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?



Ok for who? It's a fuckload of money if you're on a low income. Whether it's 'OK' compared to the market rate isn't really the point.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> *Gerlinde* ‏@ggniewosz  3h3 hours ago
> @leanderroadsw2 If new social tenant moving to Cressingham needs 1 bed then rent is £204/wk or £265/wk for a 2 bed.
> 
> 
> £265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?



A "new social tenant", given the residualisation of social housing, will be someone either not working, or on minimum wage. Current (local authority) social rent for a 2-bed is about £120pw - affordable within HB rules. A weekly rent of £265 will take most social housing renters well over the maximum weekly HB allowance- by about £450 per 4 weeks, I believe - so they'll actually have to find a sum akin to their old rent, just to stay in that property.
Get more than 8 weeks in arrears, and they'll be out, because guess what? These new "social homes" won't becoming with standard secure tenancies.


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Try telling that to my German friends living in several such blocks. Damp not dealt with. Nothing ever fixed. Really grumpy landlady. Same old stuff with a few added quirks,e.g. Had to put in their own fitted kitchen (that's the norm). And actually, they desperately want to buy but no one is selling (the tax advantages are way too good!). Wasn't someone after some rose tinted specs the other day?


My sample of two German rental flats when I lived there indicated that they were a better standard than the ones I've lived in here. So its my anecdata vs. yours and no spectacles required


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Ok for who? It's a fuckload of money if you're on a low income. Whether it's 'OK' compared to the market rate isn't really the point.



Well, it *is* the point to the sort of wank-rag who believes that local authority social housing is "subsidised", and that social housing tenants are coddled.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> My sample of two German rental flats when I lived there indicated that they were a better standard than the ones I've lived in here. So its my anecdata vs. yours and no spectacles required



One thing I did notice in the local press in Cologne and Berlin was fewer "bad landlord" stories of the type all too common over here, i.e. overcrowding and poor fire safety.


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## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> My sample of two German rental flats when I lived there indicated that they were a better standard than here. So its my anecdata vs. yours and no spectacles required


No one is denying your experience in Germany. Just highlighting that it does not necessarily extrapolate into a particularly useful market comparison. The picture is, as ever, far more complicated and varied.


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## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> *Gerlinde* ‏@ggniewosz  3h3 hours ago
> @leanderroadsw2 If new social tenant moving to Cressingham needs 1 bed then rent is £204/wk or £265/wk for a 2 bed.
> 
> 
> £265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?


£265 a week is a fucking fortune if you're on a low income. It may seem 'OK' to you, but it will be totally unaffordable to many struggling at the bottom of the pile.


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## alcopop (Feb 16, 2016)

editor said:


> £265 a week is a fucking fortune if you're on a low income. It may seem 'OK' to you, but it will be totally unaffordable to many struggling at the bottom of the pile.


Fair enough, then rent out a room.


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

In light of this depressing video piece on Channel 4 - - what is the status of Pop Brixton?

They describe themselves as a "public space in the heart of Brixton" but the presence of bag searches and security guards suggest otherwise.

Far from being an actual public space, it would appear to be a privatised space, contrary to what was promised.


----------



## alcopop (Feb 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> A "new social tenant", given the residualisation of social housing, will be someone either not working, or on minimum wage. Current (local authority) social rent for a 2-bed is about £120pw - affordable within HB rules. A weekly rent of £265 will take most social housing renters well over the maximum weekly HB allowance- by about £450 per 4 weeks, I believe - so they'll actually have to find a sum akin to their old rent, just to stay in that property.
> Get more than 8 weeks in arrears, and they'll be out, because guess what? These new "social homes" won't becoming with standard secure tenancies.


You could rent a room out. Make up the shortfall on rent that way?


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> You could rent a room out. Make up the shortfall on rent that way?


If a family gets a two bedroom social tenancy it will be because they _need_ the two bedrooms.

Why the fuck should families all start crushing into the one bedroom and accommodate a stranger just to cover the rent?


----------



## Rushy (Feb 16, 2016)

I've never been searched going in myself but I'm rarely there on weekends nights. Anyone know if Pop have a choice as to whether or not they conduct security searches at peak times?


----------



## leanderman (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> *Gerlinde* ‏@ggniewosz  3h3 hours ago
> @leanderroadsw2 If new social tenant moving to Cressingham needs 1 bed then rent is £204/wk or £265/wk for a 2 bed.
> 
> 
> £265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?




According to Gerlinde: 

For council tenants, Lambeth models showing a 23% increase for 1 bed, up 25% for 2 bed, up 16% for 3 bed and up 10% for 4bed


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> You could rent a room out. Make up the shortfall on rent that way?



If you're on the social housing list and you're single or have a partner but no children, you don't get offered a 2-bed. Only a 1-bed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

leanderman said:


> According to Gerlinde:
> 
> For council tenants, Lambeth models showing a 23% increase for 1 bed, up 25% for 2 bed, up 16% for 3 bed and up 10% for 4bed



IIRC % increases are for *existing* tenants decanted to new homes on the estate, while the £265pw figure is about *new* tenants moving into the (derisory number of) new social-rent properties on the rebuilt estate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

editor said:


> If a family gets a two bedroom social tenancy it will be because they _need_ the two bedrooms.
> 
> Why the fuck should families all start crushing into the one bedroom and accommodate a stranger just to cover the rent?



Yep.
We've actually got a couple of dozen couples with 1 or 2 children living in 1-bed flats on Cressingham. That's *normal* across the borough.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> Fair enough, then rent out a room.



In a one bedroom?


----------



## alcopop (Feb 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you're on the social housing list and you're single or have a partner but no children, you don't get offered a 2-bed. Only a 1-bed.


Fair enough. Cheers


----------



## sparkybird (Feb 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep.
> We've actually got a couple of dozen couples with 1 or 2 children living in 1-bed flats on Cressingham. That's *normal* across the borough.



This happens also in the private rented and owner occupier sectors


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

sparkybird said:


> This happens also in the private rented and owner occupier sectors



It's a more recent occurrence in those sectors, though- the last decade or so. In social housing it's been around since the mid-nineties, at least in London and the Home Counties


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> In a one bedroom?



Well, you know councils. They actually count your front room as a possible bedroom, the fuckers.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Feb 16, 2016)

Waterloo library at Lower Marsh is next in line for the Lambeth Council meanwhile treatment. A two year period is on offer. It will be interesting to see who pitches in for this space.

Cllr Hopkins claims:

"We have a good track record in Lambeth of making meanwhile space work, sometimes perhaps becoming victims of our own success in some cases.

Many of you will have heard of POP Brixton which is a business park in the heart of Brixton which has created hundreds of jobs and supported local startups with a home, as well as giving back in a big way to the wider community.

Indeed Impact Hub Brixton, itself originally a meanwhile use in the basement of the Town Hall has moved in there to form part of a vibrant business community bringing more life and footfall to what was arguably a neglected part of the town centre."

Brixton Village was apparently a "ghost town" before the arrival of the Nu Brixton.


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

Tricky Skills said:


> Brixton Village was apparently a "ghost town" before the arrival of the Nu Brixton.


It really fucks me off when I see people trotting that bullshit out. It was intentionally run down for a bit because of the fuckwit owners who were trying to push through their godawful redevelopment, but I've got plenty of photos to prove it was never, ever a 'ghost town'.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> £265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?



Where do people have this sort of fucking money? That's still £816 p/m for a 1 bed, £1060 p/m for a 2 bed. And this is supposed to be 'social'?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2016)

> £265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?



Utter guff. You are either a profiteering landlord, aspire to be one or a fucking troll.


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Utter guff. You are either a profiteering landlord, aspire to be one or a fucking troll.


Or just one of a growing number of comfortably well off people who honestly seem to have no fucking clue what life is like for people at the bottom of the pile. I come across people like this all the time both online and offline, sadly.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2016)

editor said:


> Or just one of a growing number of comfortably well off people who honestly seem to have no fucking clue what life is like for people at the bottom of the pile. I come across people like this all the time both online and offline, sadly.



Aspiring, like I said.


----------



## editor (Feb 16, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> Aspiring, like I said.


"If only they worked harder..." etc etc.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2016)

_Poor_ habits and choices clearly...


----------



## teuchter (Feb 16, 2016)

Maybe someone who knows what they themselves pay for a room/flat in Brixton, which may or may not be a substantial portion of what may or may not be a comfortable income, who sees a figure and thinks "that seems reasonable" relative to their own experience of what renting in London costs. Maybe there is a level of ignorance about how social housing works, or how much housing benefit will pay for, and so on. But does it necessarily also mean that this person thinks the poor are poor because of laziness and bad character, or is most likely a profiteering landlord, or is guilty of various other evils? Maybe they are, who knows. But, let's not miss the opportunity to excitedly jump aboard a traditional urban75 mini-hatefest. Congratulations all, you have demonstrated that you _are_ better than this person, or at least the spectre you have constructed.


----------



## Mr Retro (Feb 16, 2016)

alcopop said:


> *Gerlinde* ‏@ggniewosz  3h3 hours ago
> @leanderroadsw2 If new social tenant moving to Cressingham needs 1 bed then rent is £204/wk or £265/wk for a 2 bed.
> 
> 
> £265 for a 2 bed flat seems ok to me. or have i misunderstood?


3 of us paid £300 for a 2 bed in Brixton in 2001, so it seems ok to me too.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 16, 2016)

Stop rich foreigners buying up properties too. We have enough of our own reckless rich as it is.


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 16, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> 3 of us paid £300 for a 2 bed in Brixton in 2001, so it seems ok to me too.



Landlord scum 

It ain't cheap by any means - but that's why I don't live near Brixton and moved out.


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 16, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Stop rich foreigners buying up properties too. We have enough of our own reckless rich as it is.



Racist xenophobe


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 16, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Stop rich foreigners buying up properties too. We have enough of our own reckless rich as it is.



Don't stop them - just tax the shit out of them to pay for more social housing in an ideal world.

I work in Vauxhall and it is properly shocking the amount of Ultra expensive high rise new builds. It makes Brixton look like a playground for gentrification.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 17, 2016)

property twats threatening the future of my beloved football club.

Millwall battle to save the Den’s hinterland from property developers


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Maybe someone who knows what they themselves pay for a room/flat in Brixton, which may or may not be a substantial portion of what may or may not be a comfortable income, who sees a figure and thinks "that seems reasonable" relative to their own experience of what renting in London costs. Maybe there is a level of ignorance about how social housing works, or how much housing benefit will pay for, and so on. But does it necessarily also mean that this person thinks the poor are poor because of laziness and bad character, or is most likely a profiteering landlord, or is guilty of various other evils? Maybe they are, who knows. But, let's not miss the opportunity to excitedly jump aboard a traditional urban75 mini-hatefest. Congratulations all, you have demonstrated that you _are_ better than this person, or at least the spectre you have constructed.


aspiring apologist 
do you do anyone's bidding?


----------



## discobastard (Feb 17, 2016)

.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> aspiring apologist
> do you do anyone's bidding?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

context? why you liking it alfajobrob  do you even understand its point?


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> context? why you liking it alfajobrob  do you even understand its point?



Yes - now fuck off!


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

well well 

who's sock puppet is Sea Lion?
and t liking an abusive post, of course he's not here to score the cheapest of cheap points, no siree


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> well well
> 
> who's sock puppet is Sea Lion?
> and t liking an abusive post, of course he's not here to score the cheapest of cheap points, no siree



He's my sockpuppet!

But you are right for a change as liking an abusive post against you is comparable to an easy open goal......I wonder why?

I regard you in the absolute lowest contempt - so please don't quote me again as I don't want to get banned you fucking idiot!


PS 
I have no idea who sealion is incase you don't do shitty sarcasm.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> He's my sockpuppet!
> 
> But you are right for a change as liking an abusive post against you is comparable to an easy open goal......I wonder why?
> 
> I regard you in the absolute lowest contempt - so please don't quote me again as I don't want to get banned you fucking idiot!


weak


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> weak



ddraig you are like a shitty semen stain on a favourite pair of jeans....gotta love your tenacity!


----------



## Rushy (Feb 17, 2016)




----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> ddraig you are like a shitty semen stain on a favourite pair of jeans....gotta love your tenacity!


how come?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

Rushy said:


>



aww look at the trouble it went to!
bit slow in the property/wine/pop business today is it?


----------



## Rushy (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> how come?


Not a question I'd ever have anticipated from Urban's most accomplished wanker.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> PS
> I have no idea who sealion is incase you don't do shitty sarcasm.


Just for clarity, are you saying your sarcasm is inept, or that its perfectly good sarcasm, but its a shit thing to do, or is the reference to it being shitty sarcastic in itself, making it sarcasm within sarcasm.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Not a question I'd ever have anticipated from Urban's most accomplished wanker.


weaker than alfajob!


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> He's my sockpuppet!
> 
> But you are right for a change as liking an abusive post against you is comparable to an easy open goal......I wonder why?
> 
> ...


i see shitty from you but not much sarcasm
trying too hard maybe


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> i see shitty from you but not much sarcasm
> trying too hard maybe



Fuck off ddraig you massive pile of absolute shite. What part of "I don't want to conserve with you" do you not get?

The best part of you slipped down your mum's leg. You are a shitstain on society!


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Fuck off ddraig you massive pile of absolute shite. What part of "I don't want to conserve with you" do you not get?
> 
> The best part of you slipped down your mum's leg. You are a shitstain on society!


who the fuck do you think you are and do you understand how message boards work?

i don't want to conserve (sic) with you either, no need for such abuse is there


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> who the fuck do you think you are and do you understand how message boards work?
> 
> i don't want to conserve (sic) with you either, no need for such abuse is there



Normally not - but where you are concerned I make an exception.

Especially as you make a point abusing everyone else for specious reasons. In a party I bet you are the only one left in the kitchen ranting away like the sad fuck you are!!!

Please go away.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Normally not - but where you are concerned I make an exception.
> 
> Especially as you make a point abusing everyone else for specious reasons. In a party I bet you are the only one left in the kitchen ranting away like the sad fuck you are!!!
> 
> Please go away.


do i abuse people using disgusting comments like you? no 
you fuck off


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

Disgusting comments..oh noes!

You abuse people constantly by questioning their motives, lives etc. etc.then cries when someone says something back... you ickle little snivelling lickspittle shitberg.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Disgusting comments..oh noes!
> 
> You abuse people constantly by questioning their motives, lives etc. etc.then cries when someone says something back... you ickle little snivelling lickspittle shitberg.


is it the same as the disgusting comments you made to me or not?
those people can speak for themselves and don't need you dishing out vile abuse for them


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> is it the same as the disgusting comments you made to me or not?
> those people can speak for themselves and don't need you dishing out vile abuse for them



What vile abuse - show me a comment that isn't true 

Anyway we are in danger of derailing the vital POP Brixton thread. I can properly abuse you by any other medium if you prefer you soppy little twat?


----------



## ddraig (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> What vile abuse - show me a comment that isn't true
> 
> Anyway we are in danger of derailing the vital pop Brixton thread. I can properly abuse you by any other medium if you prefer you soppy little twat?


this vile abuse
Pop Brixton (formerly Grow Brixton) Pope's Road development

you could just grow up, and then fuck off


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Fuck off ddraig you massive pile of absolute shite. What part of "I don't want to conserve with you" do you not get?
> 
> The best part of you slipped down your mum's leg. You are a shitstain on society!


Wooarhh! Even by the 'robust' nature of this interminable thread, that is way out of order. Please desist, and I'd ask others to wind their necks in too. Thanks.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

In fact: anyone continuing to throw around personal abuse like it were confetti at a wedding can expect an official warning and if they keep on comin' a ban will follow just as surely as night follows day. Yes, sirree.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob, for guidance in making consistently constructive and informative contributions to the thread please refer here. 9 pages of inspiration.


----------



## shifting gears (Feb 17, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Not a question I'd ever have anticipated from Urban's most accomplished wanker.



Sorry mate... We've already got one of those.


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

shifting gears said:


> Sorry mate... We've already got one of those.


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

editor said:


> Wooarhh! Even by the 'robust' nature of this interminable thread, that is way out of order. Please desist, and I'd ask others to wind their necks in too. Thanks.



TBF he quoted me on a "like".

 I did ask him to stop talking to me and since when is telling the truth a bannable offence?


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

See this?
___________________________

This is the line that's just been drawn. If anyone carries on with any more of this unpleasant person shit or off topic bunfights, they will receive a warning, and a ban if they continue. Perhaps some people would like to see this thread trashed, but it's not going to happen. Stop the personal shit now. Everyone.


----------



## SpamMisery (Feb 17, 2016)

This thread took a nosedive and ceased to be informative almost 200 pages ago.


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

You are bleating more than a pregnant ewe. I refuse to engage with you anymore.

If you give it - you have to be able to take it.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

I rarely delete posts but this is getting ridiculous so I'm going straight for the one day ban option here.  Anyone else carrying on with the insults, baiting, idiotic images, shitstirring 'observations' and all the other off topic crap will be banned immediately.

This is a thread about Pop Brixton and it's an important topic to some locals. If you've nothing relevant to add to this topic, leave the thread but if you continue with the same old crap, a one day ban will follow straight away and you won't be able to moan that you haven't been warned.

It starts now. Think before you post because I don't actually want to ban anyone.


----------



## sparkybird (Feb 17, 2016)

Hey, maybe we need a sticky thread for those who want to throw puerile abuse at each other?
And then the rest of us can just ignore it....


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

sparkybird said:


> Hey, maybe we need a sticky thread for those who want to throw puerile abuse at each other?
> And then the rest of us can just ignore it....



Hey - that puerile abuse was some of my best work!

It has been mooted before but goes against the "ethos of the community" as I understand so we have to "robustly" debate on each thread?

I'd happily have a "shit calling" thread where we would say what we mean without being scared of offending people. Surely the point of insulting someone is to cause offence?


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Hey - that puerile abuse was some of my best work!
> 
> It has been mooted before but goes against the "ethos of the community" as I understand so we have to "robustly" debate on each thread?
> 
> I'd happily have a "shit calling" thread where we would say what we mean without being scared of offending people. Surely the point of insulting someone is to cause offence?


With a deep sigh, I'll repeat my last post. Please read it carefully. I've underlined the bit you need to concentrate on:

_This is a thread about Pop Brixton and it's an important topic to some locals. If you've nothing relevant to add to this topic, leave the thread but if you continue with the same old crap, a one day ban will follow straight away and you won't be able to moan that you haven't been warned.

_


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

I have no real opinion re. Pop as I have never been like a few of the naysayers.

I do think it has brought new jobs and businesses to a hitherto neglected area of Brixton. I think the thread title is awful and it gets short shrift compared to more "favourable" outlets that get preferential treatment. Fair play to all the small businesses that have put time and money into it though.

How's that for on topic?


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I think the thread title is awful and it gets short shrift compared to more "favourable" outlets that get preferential treatment.


What is so 'awful' about the title? Do tell.


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

editor said:


> What is so 'awful' about the title? Do tell.



It's the "formerly" guff....do you want me to expand or will I get banned?


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> It's the "formerly" guff....do you want me to expand?


Yes, please do.

You do understand that when this thread started, the project was called Grow Brixton, yes? The thread title was then amended to include the new name, whilst - quite properly - referencing the original name.

So how does that make it an 'awful' title? It's an_ accurate_ title but you seem desperate to find umbrage in it.


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

lol - I get that they didn't offer you a coffee and free laptop for promotion. SHAME ON THEM!

That's just my twopenneth on the pop hate...I'm happy to be wrong.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I have no real opinion re. Pop as I have never been like a few of the naysayers.
> 
> I do think it has brought new jobs and businesses to a hitherto neglected area of Brixton. I think the thread title is awful and it gets short shrift compared to more "favourable" outlets that get preferential treatment. Fair play to all the small businesses that have put time and money into it though.
> 
> How's that for on topic?



Is "hitherto neglected" accurate? It was a car park!


----------



## alfajobrob (Feb 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is "hitherto neglected" accurate? It was a car park!



Exactly.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> lol - I get that they didn't offer you a coffee and free laptop for promotion. SHAME ON THEM!


I've no idea what you're on about or why you're posting up this  ridiculous personal slur, but you've been warned enough times about trying to disrupt this thread so take a one day break - oh, and that last post really seals the deal.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

I hear that there's a rebrand for Pop Community Ltd (the parent company for Pop Brixton and Peckham Levels) coming up. I wonder why they feel the need?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 17, 2016)

Perhaps because it is not really a community project....


----------



## sealion (Feb 17, 2016)

ddraig said:


> <deleted>


<deleted>
Sorry editor for the derail.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> --
> Sorry editor for the derail.


Sorry, but you can not just turn up and carry on with the personal beef after all the warnings and then just add 'sorry' at the end. I've removed your comment because all it is going to do is either start up even more shit, or get you banned - and I don't want either to happen.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 18, 2016)

I thought I'd apologise this morning for calling Ddrag a wanker yesterday. In twelve years of posting here I've avoided that kind of name calling as it achieves nothing and is one of the things I like least about the site.

It would also be great to see the less frequent visitors to the Brixton forum whose contributions are consistently nothing more than schoolboy trolling reined in a little.


----------



## deadringer (Feb 18, 2016)

Certain posters had obviously had far too much artisanal coffee yesterday afternoon....


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2016)

That's two more posts putting in the little digs. Stop it please. Talk about Pop Brixton or take it elsewhere. Thanks.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 18, 2016)

"The Devil and Daniel Johnston - Free Screening

Tuesday 23rd February | From 19:30

"The Devil and Daniel Johnston is a stunning portrait of a musical genius that nearly slipped away. It depicts a perfect example of brilliance and madness going hand in hand. The film artfully melds current footage, vintage performances, home movies, and dozens of recorded audiotapes from Johnston's life" Click here for the trailer.

Screening begins at 8pm, with Pop's usual plethora of food and drink options at your disposal before, after and during..

Tickets are free *but if you fancy copping a donation one you'll be helping us pay for the venue hire* "


----------



## deadringer (Feb 18, 2016)

editor said:


> That's two more posts putting in the little digs. Stop it please. Talk about Pop Brixton or take it elsewhere. Thanks.



Digs?! It was a lighthearted joke aimed at no one in particular!! Normally it's booze that turns threads into a bun fight!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 18, 2016)

.

Wrong thread


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2016)

I just took a look around Pop. It was a sunny afternoon and I saw a grand total of three people visiting in the place. Quite a few of the shops hadn't bothered opening, which was probably disappointing for the tourists, and it must be getting tough for some of the shops who can't cash it when it turns into a pub in the evenings.


----------



## snowy_again (Feb 22, 2016)

It's a Monday - lost of places (tourist and non tourist) aren't open on Mondays.


----------



## editor (Feb 22, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> It's a Monday - lost of places (tourist and non tourist) aren't open on Mondays.


Street markets outside were pretty busy, which is good news. 

Pop Brixton advertises its hours on Monday as being: 9am - 11pm


----------



## T & P (Feb 22, 2016)

Well at least there won't be any long queues and disappointed would-be-patrons venting their fury on Facebook today...


----------



## bimble (Feb 22, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Don't stop them - just tax the shit out of them to pay for more social housing in an ideal world.



Yep. People have done the maths and come up with an idea that a 10% tax on the very most expensive properties re-distributed towards lower-income / key workers housing would go a long way to counterbalancing what is going on .

"the research suggested that a 10% levy would not deter the super-rich from investing in London because no other international city offered the same level of luxury services, cultural attractions and relative safety.
A dedicated fund to provide housing for key workers and those on low incomes could also encourage further philanthropic donations from the uber-wealthy, said Atkinson, an expert on gentrification and social exclusion: “We need a kind of billionaire bonus fund where [the super-rich] publicly say, ‘I’ve got all this money and I will sink some of this into a housing infrastructure fund that tackles the problem of affordable housing for key workers..”

Not that it'll happen of course, but it's a good idea.
Levy on luxury London homes would net £86m a year for social housing


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2016)

Here's something for you Pop lovers: 



> GoalGetters Masterclass in Brixton
> 
> It's not too late to make your 2016 Less Ordinary! Come and learn how
> to turn your hopes and dreams into achievable goals with us on
> ...


----------



## brixtonblade (Mar 3, 2016)

I hope and dream of being able to charge a shipping container full of people  50 quid a throw to teach them how to write a list


----------



## bimble (Mar 3, 2016)

jesus. their list of what they think your dreams look like is enough to make you want an optimism bootcamp.


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2016)

I imagine they'll be queuing up from the estates for this one:


> I am known for my high impact, positively challenging, holistic approach to personal growth & leadership development.





> Identity, Confidence & Leadership.
> Coach, Consultant, Facilitator, Speaker.
> Founder: A Life Less Ordinary Wanted.
> Passionate about Positive Change.





> Naomi Jane is the founder of A Life Less Ordinary Wanted and she has spent the last ten years inspiring, challenging and empowering entrepreneurs, business leaders, their teams and organisations to become proactive about change, reach more of their potential and become Less Ordinary.





> She is committed to crafting an existence she will be proud to leave behind by positively challenging and equipping the people she meets to discover and live the Less Ordinary life they were truly destined for.


Cost: up to sixty-seven-fucking-quid.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's something for you Pop lovers:



That sounds like wank.

As soon as you get websites promoting areas it tends to bring in the masses though - strange innit. The fact people would move to an area that is constantly promoted?

I wonder what brought them all to Brixton apart from the vibrancy*?


*and Vic line.


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> As soon as you get websites promoting areas it tends to bring in the masses though - strange innit. The fact people would move to an area that is constantly promoted?
> 
> I wonder what brought them all to Brixton apart from the vibrancy*?


A lot of factors, but I'd put Brixton Village - and the message it sent out about Brixton's uber-vibrancy, nu-found middle class appeal and safety - as one of the many recent factors.

It quickly became the must-mention in every estate agent's blurb and travel guide book, and with more upmarket housing and trendy restaurants opening up - coupled with the already great transport links - it became a no-brainer to market the area to investors, the cash-rich and parents looking to buy a little place for their precious ones.

Throw in the mass evictions that freed up even more housing stock and the stampede of public schoolboys, developers, trendy chains and well heeled investors all dashing in for a slice of the action, and you've got the perfect storm for gentrification.

I don't think this website - if that's what you mean (surely not?!) - would have had a great deal of influence when there's millions being sloshed around. Besides, most of the emails I got were from people complaining that I wasn't showing Brixton in a nice enough light.


----------



## SpamMisery (Mar 3, 2016)

It's not particularly clear what you get for £57


----------



## T & P (Mar 3, 2016)

That does sound like a load of wank it has to be said, certainly for £57.


----------



## leanderman (Mar 3, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I wonder what brought them all to Brixton apart from the vibrancy*?
> 
> 
> *and Vic line.



When it comes to the well-heeled moving here, by far the biggest factor is that they have been priced out of their usual stomping-grounds.


----------



## SpamMisery (Mar 3, 2016)

Oh, to be young and in shorts.... and back in Kensington

No but seriously, I'd rather be in Kensington


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 3, 2016)

leanderman said:


> When it comes to the well-heeled moving here, by far the biggest factor is that they have been priced out of their usual stomping-grounds. (The Victoria Line reached here in 1971)



They would rather be in chelsea or wherever... I'd rather they were there as well...does that make me snobby?

I'm moving out of London soon anyway. I've done 42 years.


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 4, 2016)

Sorry - but I just have to say I've lived on OKR, Walworth Rd, South Circ above pubs, flats and houses for last 20 years...If I'm not on a main shit road I can't sleep....

Worst one was I went over to east london for a time and I realised they are all wrong in every way shape and form.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> It's not particularly clear what you get for £57


I think it's the same principle as defeating procrastination by reading some self-help books before doing so.


----------



## SpamMisery (Mar 4, 2016)




----------



## Lucy Fur (Mar 4, 2016)

brixtonblade said:


> I hope and dream of being able to charge a shipping container full of people  50 quid a throw to teach them how to write a list


It's no good sitting around hoping and dreaming, I run a course where you can make a list to make your dreams come true, only £45, (£5 Urbanite discount). PM me.


----------



## leanderman (Mar 4, 2016)

Impact Hub looked very busy today. Rest of Pop fairly quiet. Toilets rather handy with Popes rd ones shut.


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## editor (Mar 4, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Impact Hub looked very busy today. Rest of Pop fairly quiet. Toilets rather handy with Popes rd ones shut.


It's been_ really_ quiet every time I've passed, but I guess it'll be busy with boozers tonight once it turns into nu-Brixton's biggest pub/club.


----------



## leanderman (Mar 4, 2016)

editor said:


> It's been_ really_ quiet every time I've passed, but I guess it'll be busy with boozers tonight once it turns into nu-Brixton's biggest pub/club.



Agreed. Most lunchtimes are very quiet. But modest activity today, and lots in the office area.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Agreed. Most lunchtimes are very quiet. But modest activity today, and lots in the office area.


But that's just the relocated Hub that was previously already up and running in the Town Hall.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2016)

brixtonblade said:


> I hope and dream of being able to charge a shipping container full of people  50 quid a throw to teach them how to write a list



I could do it for half the price *and* throw in some negative reinforcement - electrodes on your tender bits, with the switch flipped every time you waver in your commitment to be "less ordinary".
Job's a good'un!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> That sounds like wank.
> 
> As soon as you get websites promoting areas it tends to bring in the masses though - strange innit. The fact people would move to an area that is constantly promoted?
> 
> ...



Lies for the most part, if you've ever read any of the promotional crap for the "luxury flats" developments. 
Some of the PR bumf is fantastically-worded. If you unpick it down to the basic meanings of the words, it's usually so non-committal about what you are *actually* buying into, as to be meaningless!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Oh, to be young and in shorts.... and back in Kensington
> 
> No but seriously, I'd rather be in Kensington



So would I.

Rather that you were in Kensington, that is.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2016)

Separated at birth?



> Imagine going on a short holiday in the middle of nowhere. You enter a park surrounded by a big forest. A park with a beach, a nature pool and a temple island only reachable by self-made rafts. There’s music on the beach and pop-up parties in the forest. No massive stages, but a gathering in nature with 13 different tribes. Music, art, games, workshops, sport, wellness and loads of colourful entertainment. All created by artistic ‘Creators’, their friends and you - the crowd.
> Mandala Festival in the Netherlands produces vom-inducing press release





> Imagine yourself in an oasis. A green oasis in the inner-city, surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city life. A place unlike anything you’ve seen before; it’s own world. You feel a constant buzz and an exciting energy in the atmosphere. Around you people are cooking, selling jewellery, growing tomatoes, painting – and you stand there with a beer in one hand, a burger in the other, listening to a live band on stage, thinking: “wow”.
> https://the-dots.co.uk/TheCollective/portfolio/pop-brixton/211314


----------



## SpamMisery (Mar 4, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So would I.
> 
> Rather that you were in Kensington, that is.



We finally agree on something. Yay!


----------



## alfajobrob (Mar 5, 2016)

I'd love to be in Kensington for the 56 seconds it would take to sell and buy a smallholding in the country. With the new adoption policy from work I could likely get a small child to maintain it as well.....sweet!


----------



## leanderman (Mar 5, 2016)

editor said:


> But that's just the relocated Hub that was previously already up and running in the Town Hall.



... which now appears to be closed.


----------



## editor (Mar 6, 2016)

leanderman said:


> ... which now appears to be closed.


Er, yes. And so it moved to Pop.


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## CH1 (Mar 15, 2016)

Seems like they are starting a "POP Farm". Saw something about it on page 9 of Time Out.
This refers I think: 1st Day of PopFarm Planting - Urban Growth London

Looks more like a miniature and sanitised version of Loughborough Farm to me, but what do I know. I'm contemplating installing an incinerator and cutting back my ivy.


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## deadringer (Mar 16, 2016)

Scumbags.....are they not aware it's all about boozing and stuffing your face with expensive food?


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## teuchter (Mar 16, 2016)

The size of the "community greenhouse" is a little disappointing.


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## cuppa tee (Mar 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> The size of the "community greenhouse" is a little disappointing.



for a small fee they will probably bung you a couple of glow sticks, a glass of new zealand wine and a complimentary locally sourced aubergine then call it a VIP room


----------



## twistedAM (Mar 16, 2016)

teuchter said:


> The size of the "community greenhouse" is a little disappointing.



That's just one of 24 greenhouse units over six storeys, with a  penthouse greenhouse on top.


----------



## Winot (Mar 16, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> That's just one of 24 greenhouse units over six storeys, with a  penthouse greenhouse on top.



You're talking about the private greenhouses. The ones for social tenants are in the basement.


----------



## editor (Mar 16, 2016)

Winot said:


> You're talking about the private greenhouses. The ones for social tenants are in the basement.


You're mistaken. There are no social greenhouses, only 'affordable' ones.


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## editor (Mar 17, 2016)

Remember that Goal Setting Masterclass that was on at Pop? The one that was all about creating achievable smart goals with the right deadlines?

They've just screwed up their own deadline and had to reschedule the date. At short notice.


----------



## T & P (Mar 24, 2016)

I've got a leaflet from Pop landing on my floormat all the way here in leafy Tulse Hill. They're having an Easter Extravaganza this Saturday with live bands, a steel orchestra and DJs until midnight, and a Fete on Monday with an egg hunt & fun and games for the little ones on Monday.


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> I've got a leaflet from Pop landing on my floormat all the way here in leafy Tulse Hill. They're having an Easter Extravaganza this Saturday with live bands, a steel orchestra and DJs until midnight, and a Fete on Monday with an egg hunt & fun and games for the little ones on Monday.


Looks like they've had to increase their promotional budget. I went yesterday and it was all a bit empty again.

That greenhouse is comically small.


----------



## twistedAM (Mar 24, 2016)

editor said:


> Remember that Goal Setting Masterclass that was on at Pop? The one that was all about creating achievable smart goals with the right deadlines?
> 
> They've just screwed up their own deadline and had to reschedule the date. At short notice.



If this is the reason, it's classic.


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## Mr Retro (Mar 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> I've got a leaflet from Pop landing on my floormat all the way here in leafy Tulse Hill. They're having an Easter Extravaganza this Saturday with live bands, a steel orchestra and DJs until midnight, and a Fete on Monday with an egg hunt & fun and games for the little ones on Monday.


Think we'll tittle along this Sunday. Been wanting to try Kricket for ages.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2016)

editor said:


> Remember that Goal Setting Masterclass that was on at Pop? The one that was all about creating achievable smart goals with the right deadlines?
> 
> They've just screwed up their own deadline and had to reschedule the date. At short notice.


Oops


----------



## leanderman (Mar 24, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Think we'll tittle along this Sunday. Been wanting to try Kricket for ages.



Been three times, which I guess means I think it is good. Even though they seem to have increased the heat a little, which has obscured some of the flavours.


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2016)

Behold the majesty of Pop Farm, an "innovative food growing project" which hopes to "improve health and wellbeing, educate and bring people together."

The green oasis is now expanding into a "new haven of growth in the centre of town," with a "lush community garden."

Yep, all that's going to happen in a few planters and a tiny little greenhouse that's about half the size of my old nan's one - and that was small to start off with! 

Still, there's lots of space to fill your face with food, watch films on a corporate screen, buy imported wines and booze and dance away to top notch DJs.


----------



## BigMoaner (Mar 24, 2016)

correct me if i'm wrong editor, but i don't think you're much of a fan.


----------



## footballerslegs (Mar 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> I've got a leaflet from Pop landing on my floormat all the way here in leafy Tulse Hill. They're having an Easter Extravaganza this Saturday with live bands, a steel orchestra and DJs until midnight, and a Fete on Monday with an egg hunt & fun and games for the little ones on Monday.


 
Thanks for the info. We'll head down to the egg hunt on Monday. Despite what you might expect, the space is brilliant for 2 year olds - particularly that central slope for them to run up and down. Possibly very annoying for everyone else though!


----------



## madolesance (Mar 24, 2016)

Pop Fields any one- Pop Fields celebrates summer of sport - Brixton Blog

Situated on an empty piece of land next to Pop Brixton what was the Canterbury.

Owned by 'May Developments', a developer who seems to be in no rush to build on the site and appears to have full support of certain Lambeth councillor.


----------



## aka (Mar 24, 2016)

editor said:


> View attachment 85022
> 
> Behold the majesty of Pop Farm, snip.....



Did you attempt to talk to the people that run Urban Growth?


----------



## aka (Mar 24, 2016)

aka said:


> Did you attempt to talk to the people that run Urban Growth?


That's the CIC dealing with most of the growing in POP at the moment.


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2016)

aka said:


> Did you attempt to talk to the people that run Urban Growth?


There was no one there to talk to.


----------



## editor (Mar 24, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> correct me if i'm wrong editor, but i don't think you're much of a fan.


I was a real fan of the horticulturally-themed project that was promised in the beginning and said so. But then the arch capitalist Shoreditch developers, multinational sports companies, corporate cinema chains and Brixton Green-types got their paws all over it, and turned it into an entrepreneurs wet dream.


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## deadringer (Mar 25, 2016)

footballerslegs said:


> Thanks for the info. We'll head down to the egg hunt on Monday. Despite what you might expect, the space is brilliant for 2 year olds - particularly that central slope for them to run up and down. Possibly very annoying for everyone else though!



Yep! Every time I've been, albeit on Sunday's, kids have been haring about the place having a great time!


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## elmpp (Mar 25, 2016)

editor said:


> I was a real fan of the horticulturally-themed project that was promised in the beginning and said so. But then the arch capitalist Shoreditch developers, multinational sports companies, corporate cinema chains and Brixton Green-types got their paws all over it, and turned it into an entrepreneurs wet dream.


Here, I'll toss you a like


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 26, 2016)

elmpp said:


> Here, I'll toss you a like



Tosser


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Tosser



And there was me being noble and resisting the urge to post the same thing.


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 26, 2016)

I'm on day 3 of the london international ska festival and djing 3pm - 10pm.

My sense of decorum is all but gone.


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## editor (Mar 26, 2016)

I popped into Pop today. My friend's mum was playing in a steel band. I liked the band but there really is something terminally soulless about the place. 

I also noticed that they've started hiring people to stand about outside the tube station with placards advertising their events.


----------



## editor (Mar 27, 2016)

In photos:  Croydon Steel Orchestra at Pop Brixton’s Easter Extravangaza


----------



## CH1 (Mar 27, 2016)

editor said:


> In photos:  Croydon Steel Orchestra at Pop Brixton’s Easter Extravangaza


Nice photos.

Is this the final proof that Brixton has moved to Thornton Heath?
I remember Linda Bellos making this claim during a meeting about the black cultural archives back around the year 2000. It wasn't totally far fetched then, but seems a de facto reality now!


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## newbie (Mar 28, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Nice photos.
> 
> Is this the final proof that Brixton has moved to Thornton Heath?
> I remember Linda Bellos making this claim during a meeting about the black cultural archives back around the year 2000. It wasn't totally far fetched then, but seems a de facto reality now!


I'd say she was late.  Pretty nearly every owner-occupied home in this street changed hands in the decade or so after 1981, with TH probably the single most popular destination, particularly for those with kids.


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## editor (Apr 3, 2016)

So Pop Brixton now want to take over the site of the Canterbury Arms for MORE BARS. And WTF is 'Pop Fields'?


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## leanderman (Apr 4, 2016)

editor said:


> And WTF is 'Pop Fields'?
> 
> View attachment 85362



See post 5841 above


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## Hoss (Apr 4, 2016)

leanderman said:


> See post 5841 above



I'm certainly not anti-Pop - I've been there a couple of times and enjoyed myself-  however, the cynic in me can't help but think the sports & activities aspect is a good excuse for Pop to open a massive beer garden to show football and olympics over the summer.


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## editor (Apr 4, 2016)

Hoss said:


> I'm certainly not anti-Pop - I've been there a couple of times and enjoyed myself-  however, the cynic in me can't help but think the sports & activities aspect is a good excuse for Pop to open a massive beer garden to show football and olympics over the summer.


Of course it is. It's just more of the same cynical 'community' bullshit. Without the flowing booze, the place would be a total flop.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 4, 2016)

Hoss said:


> I'm certainly not anti-Pop - I've been there a couple of times and enjoyed myself-  however, the cynic in me can't help but think the sports & activities aspect is a good excuse for Pop to open a massive beer garden to show football and olympics over the summer.


I think that would be cool. It would be like the fan zones at the rugby World Cup last year. I was at 2 of them and really enjoyed the atmosphere.  They were great fun.


----------



## sparkybird (Apr 4, 2016)

I guess it all depends on if you have to pay to get in or if you can bring your own supplied of food and drink or you are forced to buy theirs...


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2016)

sparkybird said:


> I guess it all depends on if you have to pay to get in or if you can bring your own supplied of food and drink or you are forced to buy theirs...


There is no way on earth they're going to let you bring in your own booze and they've made it clear for the main part that you can't bring your own food in. It'll be another security guard-patrolled, bag-checking 'community' space.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 4, 2016)

Great. A new outdoor venue


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2016)

I wonder if they're getting this land on the cheap too?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 4, 2016)

OBEY CONSUME THIS IS YOUR POP


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 4, 2016)

No beards on those zombies


----------



## deadringer (Apr 4, 2016)

editor said:


> Of course it is. It's just more of the same cynical 'community' bullshit. Without the flowing booze, the place would be a total flop.
> 
> View attachment 85384



Good job the booze is flowing then, if it helps the place be a success.


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Good job the booze is flowing then, if it helps the place be a success.


So long as it's a 'success' for the individual businesses involved and the booze is flowing freely (for those who can afford it), who cares how far it strays from its original community focussed brief, eh?


----------



## deadringer (Apr 4, 2016)

editor said:


> So long as it's a 'success' for the individual businesses involved and the booze is flowing freely (for those who can afford it), who cares how far it strays from its original community focussed brief, eh?



Ah yes, the elusive fork and spade, I'd forgotten what a mahoosive big deal that was for you!


----------



## teuchter (Apr 4, 2016)

My understanding is that the business model of the establishment previously existing on the site was somewhat built around booze.

That said, I wouldn't blame any regulars at the Canterbury Arms for being pretty miffed to see their proper boozer bulldozed and then replaced by some kind of pop-up nonsense.

I also wonder if granting permissions for these "meanwhile" uses could tend to encourage developers to clear sites speculatively - if they know they can rent the land out whilst waiting for a favourable moment to build. Although I have no idea how the numbers actually add up, in terms of what they can charge for this kind of temporary use.


----------



## editor (Apr 4, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Ah yes, the elusive fork and spade, I'd forgotten what a mahoosive big deal that was for you!


 Not much point trying to engage with you if you're going to dream up daft nonsense like this.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 4, 2016)

editor said:


> Not much point trying to engage with you if you're going to dream up daft nonsense [about my fondness for the missing fork and spade] like this.



Dream up? Eh?



editor said:


> Perhaps you missed the mock-up that had a fucking massive gardening fork and spade sticking up in the air above the entrance?





editor said:


> The sign must have got lost in the post, like the grow tunnel, the giant fork and spade and the community kitchen.





editor said:


> The 'claimed' horticultural theme comes from the fucking giant sized gardening fork and spade that was seen rising up and filling the air from beneath the words 'Grow Brixton' in the original mock ups.





editor said:


> The same regular faces will now go out of their way to belittle and dismiss the idea, purely because I suggested it - regardless of the fact that it would actually have made sense in context of the original plans that featured a fucking huge fork and spade stuck on top of the site.


----------



## elmpp (Apr 4, 2016)

Lol


----------



## Rushy (Apr 5, 2016)

sparkybird said:


> I guess it all depends on if you have to pay to get in or if you can bring your own supplied of food and drink or you are forced to buy theirs...


Funnily enough, I think the Canterbury may be the only pub I have been in which had a policy of forcing guests to buy drinks. As I recall, you were only allowed to watch the footy if you committed to buy a minimum of one pint of beer in each half! I think the pub's biggest fan and steadfast regular Mr Retro once posted an amusing photo of the rules on the door.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 5, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Funnily enough, I think the Canterbury may be the only pub I have been in which had a policy of forcing guests to buy drinks. As I recall, you were only allowed to watch the footy if you committed to buy a minimum of one pint of beer in each half! I think the pub's biggest fan and steadfast regular Mr Retro once posted an amusing photo of the rules on the door.



They got really stroppy with me when I ordered a pint and my other half said she didn't want anything. I could understand if the footy was on or it was really busy, but we were literally the only people in there.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 5, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> They got really stroppy with me when I ordered a pint and my other half said she didn't want anything. I could understand if the footy was on or it was really busy, but we were literally the only people in there.



The Hoot is very laissez-faire on the football drinking front. Staff seem not to mind people watching without buying anything.


----------



## editor (Apr 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The Hoot is very laissez-faire on the football drinking front. Staff seem not to mind people watching without buying anything.


Yes, they're super laid back. Same as the Dogstar. And the Duke of Edinburgh etc...


----------



## twistedAM (Apr 5, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Funnily enough, I think the Canterbury may be the only pub I have been in which had a policy of forcing guests to buy drinks. As I recall, you were only allowed to watch the footy if you committed to buy a minimum of one pint of beer in each half! I think the pub's biggest fan and steadfast regular Mr Retro once posted an amusing photo of the rules on the door.



The Sultan used to though it's been a few years since i been in there and the place that used to show Sky in Crystal Palace had a similar rule. i think it's very common and understandable since Sky costs a fortune.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 5, 2016)

Lots of pubs have a minimum spend/drink quota when subscription sports are on. It's to stop people just taking advantage of that Murdoch shit they pay for....

I saw a sign in a pub recently that said during sports all drinks are £4 - Including tap water.


----------



## djdando (Apr 5, 2016)

Pubs have to pay an absolute arm and a leg for Sky and BT therefore people should act as customers and not scroungers if they're going to a pub to watch sport. Simple.


----------



## Rushy (Apr 5, 2016)

djdando said:


> Pubs have to pay an absolute arm and a leg for Sky and BT therefore people should act as customers and not scroungers if they're going to a pub to watch sport. Simple.


Indeed. It's a commercial activity and should be allowed to recoup its substantial investment in the way which they feel works best for them. I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to label someone who could only stretch to one pint from the bar during a game in their local pub a scrounger. But looking at the likes you received, I'm in the minority.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 5, 2016)

At 1 pint a half for a 38 week season, it'd be cheaper to buy the Sky/BT Sport and watch it at home. Guaranteed seat.


----------



## editor (Apr 5, 2016)

djdando said:


> Pubs have to pay an absolute arm and a leg for Sky and BT therefore people should act as customers and not scroungers if they're going to a pub to watch sport. Simple.


If it's a small pub - like the Marquis of Lorne or the now departed Canterbury - I think it's only right that people don't take the piss. Those kind of pubs are often struggling so it only seems fair to buy a couple of pints if you're enjoying their hospitality. 

Personally, I'm not so bothered about mega sports pubs though, as they're usually vile places. Actually, I fucking hate Sky so short of exceptional circumstances, I'd never go into a pub to watch whatever it is they've got on anyway.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 5, 2016)

Agreed. I am no fan of TV football in pubs, and Sky at home is too expensive.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 5, 2016)

The solution is to ban televised sports, and reclaim pubs for more sociable activities like fighting and drinking.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 6, 2016)

fighting, fucking and drinking


----------



## Hoss (Apr 6, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> fighting, fucking and drinking



In that order?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 6, 2016)

Hoss said:


> In that order?



You can mix it up.....depends on your own kink I guess...


----------



## twistedAM (Apr 6, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I saw a sign in a pub recently that said during sports all drinks are £4 - Including tap water.



I'm pretty sure it's illegal to refuse to give someone tap water let alone charge for it.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 6, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> I'm pretty sure it's illegal to refuse to give someone tap water let alone charge for it.



I'm pretty sure a pub landlord can serve/not serve who they like....


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> I'm pretty sure it's illegal to refuse to give someone tap water let alone charge for it.


Refusal (of free water) in licensed premises has been made punishable by a fine of up to £20,000, six months in prison or the drinks licence being revoked. Of course, if that person asking is smashing the place up, that's different.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2014/9780111116906


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 6, 2016)

editor said:


> Refusal (of free water) in licensed premises has been made punishable by a fine of up to £20,000, six months in prison or the drinks licence being revoked. Of course, if that person asking is smashing the place up, that's different.
> 
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2014/9780111116906



"free potable water is provided on request to customers where it is reasonably available"

So someone just turning up for a glass of tap water might not be considered a customer.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> "free potable water is provided on request to customers where it is reasonably available"
> 
> So someone just turning up for a glass of tap water might not be considered a customer.


I don't think anyone was saying that.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 6, 2016)

editor said:


> I don't think anyone was saying that.



I'm rarely sure what anyone is every saying on here.


----------



## editor (Apr 6, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I'm rarely sure what anyone is every saying on here.


It's probably having a go at me, though.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 6, 2016)

editor said:


> It's probably having a go at me, though.



Well.....it is ALL your fault.

You and Thatcher.


----------



## Ol Nick (Apr 7, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> You and Thatcher.


Good post!

As far as I know NOONE ever saw Editor and Thatcher together at the same time.

Draw your own conclusions.


----------



## alfajobrob (Apr 16, 2016)

So what's happening @Popbrixton on this especially gloomy Saturday?


----------



## leanderman (Apr 16, 2016)

Tomorrow they are screening this masterpiece:


----------



## alfajobrob (Apr 16, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Tomorrow they are screening this masterpiece:


Artfully displayed I see...


----------



## Maharani (Apr 16, 2016)

Might have been discussed upthread but isn't the Ritzy hosting films here now too?


----------



## alfajobrob (Apr 16, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Might have been discussed upthread but isn't the Ritzy hosting films here now too?



The Ritzy can hurry the fuck up and start on the cinema by West Norwood.....I want to able to see Star Wars ep. 27 down the road before I pass this mortal coil.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 16, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Might have been discussed upthread but isn't the Ritzy hosting films here now too?




This is them. I thought it was a stupid idea. But it seems to have some legs.


----------



## editor (Apr 18, 2016)

Maharani said:


> Might have been discussed upthread but isn't the Ritzy hosting films here now too?


Yes. Europe's second biggest multi-national corporate cinema chain (2015 revenue: £705m) is now doing very nicely out of Pop. 

The place seems to have lost some of its vibrancy now that the gloomy tarpaulin has gone.


----------



## T & P (Apr 18, 2016)

That tends to be a recurring problem with outdoor venues, yes.

I am willing to bet it would be quite a different scene on a day when it hasn't rained buckets.


----------



## editor (Apr 18, 2016)

T & P said:


> That tends to be a recurring problem with outdoor venues, yes.
> 
> I am willing to bet it would be quite a different scene on a day when it hasn't rained buckets.


Mind you, the rain would have been good for all those plants and flowers. Oh, wait, there's not a single one in sight.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 18, 2016)

Green Oasis


----------



## T & P (Apr 18, 2016)

So weird... I just had the strongest feeling of déjà vu while browsing this thread just now...


----------



## deadringer (Apr 18, 2016)

editor said:


> Yes. Europe's second biggest multi-national corporate cinema chain (2015 revenue: £705m) is now doing very nicely out of Pop.



Are they? What kind of figures are we talking?


----------



## editor (Apr 18, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Are they? What kind of figures are we talking?


Over 2,000 screens. 





> Cineworld Group plc is the second largest cinema operator in Europe with 2000 screens in 9 countries. The UK operations consist of arthouse chain Picturehouse Cinemas and multiplex chain Cineworld Cinemas with 24 and 82 cinemas respectively. All but two Cineworld sites are located in the UK, with one each in Ireland and Jersey. Cineworld is the second-largest cinema operator in the UK with over 800 screens, and the owner of the single largest multiplex by screens and customer base in Ireland
> Cineworld - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


They should maybe rewrite Pop's mission statement to:
"Pop Brixton is a community project, event space and home to a community of independent retailers, restaurants, street food startups, social enterprises, and Europe's second biggest corporate cinema chain - with the occasional takeover by a multi-billion multinational sportswear corporation."


----------



## deadringer (Apr 18, 2016)

editor said:


> Over 2,000 screens. They should maybe rewrite Pop's mission statement to:
> "Pop Brixton is a community project, event space and home to a community of independent retailers, restaurants, street food startups, social enterprises, and Europe's second biggest corporate cinema chain - with the occasional takeover by a multi-billion multinational sportswear corporation."



Ah sorry if I wasn't very clear, I was responding to your claim that the cinema chain was doing very nicely out of Pop. What kind of money are they making?


----------



## editor (Apr 18, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Ah sorry if I wasn't very clear, I was responding to your claim that the cinema chain was doing very nicely out of Pop. What kind of money are they making?


I've no idea, and I'm not sure why it's particularly relevant. There's no reason to suppose that they're running it as a loss-making venture, and even if they were it doesn't stop the incongruity of a multinational cinema chain being allowed to set up in what is supposed to be a "community project" for "independent and local businesses."

And I'm sure associating themselves with a community-based  "vibrant social enterprise" does very nicely for the ol' PR, and with tickets at £13 a pop, I'm sure the cash tills are ringing nicely.

For reference, the PeckhamPlex charges just £4.99 and that's for new releases rather than the rehashes often shown at Pop.


----------



## deadringer (Apr 19, 2016)

You said that they were doing very nicely out of Pop, it's completely relevant! Ah right so you actually have no idea if they are, or not, doing very nicely out of it at all. So your actually making more stuff up, based on your profound dislike of the place. Desperate stuff Ed.

Gleefully posting up empty pictures of the place, then claiming that traders are doing well out of the place. Not quite sure how that would tally up. But I'm sure you'll come up with some wriggly reason to explain your warped logic!


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

deadringer said:


> You said that they were doing very nicely out of Pop, it's completely relevant! Ah right so you actually have no idea if they are, or not, doing very nicely out of it at all. So your actually making more stuff up, based on your profound dislike of the place. Desperate stuff Ed.


You're actually presenting this as an argument?  Several of their expensive film shows have been marked as sold out. They are charging a minimum of £13 per adult ticket to sit in what has to be the most stripped down, basic corporate cinema in London. Other events charge more - like £25 a film ticket with a bit of breakfast thrown in. They are charging premium rates, despite the lack of dedicated facilities compared to a regular cinema.

Cineworld have no particular reputation as philanthropists, so I see no reason to suppose that they're not doing nicely out of this, both financially and PR-wise. After all, that's what multi nationals do. Make money. And if they don't, they usually bugger off.

But feel free to present your proof that they're actually losing money and doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.

Oh, and it's not about 'disliking' Pop Brixton: it's about being sold a steaming pile of bullshit about the place being all about helping local independent businesses and start ups and then handing over a large chunk of the place to a massive corporate. Perhaps you think it's OK, but I don't.


----------



## elmpp (Apr 19, 2016)

editor: journalist


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

elmpp said:


> editor: journalist


elmpp: banned


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Ah sorry if I wasn't very clear, I was responding to your claim that the cinema chain was doing very nicely out of Pop. What kind of money are they making?



I doubt they will be declaring a special dividend on the back of this venture in their next accounts - it's essentially only one Sunday a month. 

The screenings help the independent traders sell their wares. 

The space is being used tonight for an air ambulance fundraiser. 

Future events in the so-called box include a Calais refugee kitchen fundraiser on May 14.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I doubt they will be declaring a special dividend on the back of this venture in their next accounts - it's essentially only one Sunday a month.


So do you think it's appropriate for another massive corporate concern to be involved in what was supposed to be a community green oasis for local start ups and independents?


leanderman said:


> The screenings help the independent traders sell their wares.


Do they really? Or do you mean beer?


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> handing over a large chunk of the place to a massive corporation



This is a wild exaggeration.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> This is a wild exaggeration.


The Box by far is the largest single unit in Pop Brixton and Cineworld are indeed a massive corporation, but obviously not as huge as Adidas who were allowed to "takeover" the place for their own promotional uses. Appropriate use given the original brief, do you think?


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> So do you think it's appropriate for another massive corporate concern to be involved in what was supposed to be a community green oasis for local start ups and independents?



That is a question the traders, and customers, can answer.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Apr 19, 2016)

Its also a question the local community has the right to answer, surely


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> The Box by far is the largest single unit in Pop Brixton and Cineworld are indeed a massive corporation, but obviously not as huge as Adidas who were allowed to "takeover" the place for their own promotional uses. Appropriate use given the original brief, do you think?



A large chunk of Pop Brixton has not been handed over to Cineworld.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Its also a question the local community has the right to answer, surely



Which is not distinct from the traders and customers.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Which is not distinct from the traders and customers.


my point is you dont need to be either a trader or a customer to have a vested interest in a commercial development, which I got the impression from your first post you were implying?


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> That is a question the traders, and customers, can answer.


I'm asking you as a Brixton resident. Lambeth Council are providing the land at no cost, so residents have EVERY right to voice opinions on what is happening there, and raise questions about the appropriateness of its usage.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Which is not distinct from the traders and customers.


Err, yes it is. Not all of the local community use Pop Brixton.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> A large chunk of Pop Brixton has not been handed over to Cineworld.


 Ah, it's nitpick time! Perhaps you'll prefer this wording: the largest single unit in Pop Brixton has been regularly made available to the second largest cinema chain in Europe who charge premium prices for their film showings. How does that sound?


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> my point is you dont need to be either a trader or a customer to have a vested interest in a commercial development, which I got the impression from your first post you were implying?



Customers don't have a commercial interest as such.

And my interest is a lot less vested than a trader paying those steep rents. 

I expect they welcome the ambulance or Calais fundraisers and cinema events alike to try to sell food etc.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Customers don't have a commercial interest as such.
> 
> And my interest is a lot less vested than a trader paying those steep rents.
> 
> I expect they welcome the ambulance or Calais fundraisers and cinema events alike to try to sell food etc.


vested interest does not necessarily mean the same as a commercial interest.
the ambulance / calais fundraisers I have no problem with.
the cinema events I agree with Editor, I don't see that Cineworld / Ritzy fits the definition of independent / new start business, and is just a further distortion of the original brief.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Ah, it's nitpick time! Perhaps you'll prefer this wording: the largest single unit in Pop Brixton has been regularly made available to the second largest cinema chain in Europe who charge premium prices for their film showings. How does that sound?



Not bad. Or:

The largest unit in Pop Brixton hosts different fashion, music, fitness, art and charity events almost every day. Once a month classic films are screened by Ritzy-owning Cineworld chain


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> vested interest does not necessarily mean the same as a commercial interest.
> the ambulance / calais fundraisers I have no problem with.
> the cinema events I agree with Editor, I don't see that Cineworld / Ritzy fits the definition of independent / new start business, and is just a further distortion of the original brief.



I definitely wouldn't pay £13 to watch a film there.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I definitely wouldn't pay £13 to watch a film there.


Nope me neither!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2016)

deadringer said:


> You said that they were doing very nicely out of Pop, it's completely relevant! Ah right so you actually have no idea if they are, or not, doing very nicely out of it at all. So your actually making more stuff up, based on your profound dislike of the place. Desperate stuff Ed.
> 
> Gleefully posting up empty pictures of the place, then claiming that traders are doing well out of the place. Not quite sure how that would tally up. But I'm sure you'll come up with some wriggly reason to explain your warped logic!



It's "warped logic" on your part to assume that "doing very nicely" necessarily refers to profiting, when it could be that they're "doing very nicely" from the publicity that the Pop-up cinema generates for their other endeavours.


----------



## snowy_again (Apr 19, 2016)

But even by quantifying press inches / click throughs into £$ they'd struggle to break three figures surely?


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I definitely wouldn't pay £13 to watch a film there.


So it's a rip off, yes?


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The largest unit in Pop Brixton hosts different fashion, music, fitness, art and charity events almost every day.


Could you list the 'almost daily' charity events that have taken place this month please?


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> But even by quantifying press inches / click throughs into £$ they'd struggle to break three figures surely?


How is that relevant? A successful PR campaign isn't always about making money. It can also be about shining up a brand image which can then help secure openings elsewhere.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Could you list the 'almost daily' charity events that have taken place this month please?



I haven't said that. The list is here: Pop Brixton


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I haven't said that.


It can most certainly read that way. So how many charity events does it host every day/week/month? 

_"The largest unit in Pop Brixton hosts different fashion, music, fitness, art and charity events almost every day."_


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

You can work it out for yourself. 

The point is that a large chunk of Pop has not been handed over to Cineworld.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> You can work it out for yourself.


You've no idea have you? But they certainly do regularly take over a large chunk of Pop Brixton for their overpriced events.

What do you think of a corporate being involved in what was supposed to be a community based park for start ups? Any opinion yet?


----------



## Winot (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> It can most certainly read that way.



Only if you're wilfully disregarding ordinary English usage.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

Winot said:


> Only if you're wilfully disregarding ordinary English usage.


I figured you'd pipe in, but it is quite clear that his sentence can be interpreted both ways. But thanks for having another little stir while adding nothing to the actual debate.


----------



## Winot (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> I figured you'd pipe in, but it is quite clear that his sentence can be interpreted both ways. But thanks for having another little stir while adding nothing to the actual debate.



And in post 5938 he said that your interpretation was wrong.  And yet you continue to pursue that line of argument. So who is stirring exactly?


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

Winot said:


> And in post 5938 he said that your interpretation was wrong.  And yet you continue to pursue that line of argument. So who is stirring exactly?


Jesus. Give it up for fuck's sake.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> What do you think of a corporate being involved in what was supposed to be a community based park for start ups? Any opinion yet?



No. It doesn't worry me much (the corporate involvement is very minor). Nor does it worry the community-based start-ups.

As one told me earlier, sarcastically, re: Pop Ritzy: 'Why on earth would we want more customers to come into Pop?'


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> No. It doesn't worry me much.


I figured it wouldn't. 


leanderman said:


> Nor does it worry the community-based start-ups.'


You really are in no position at all to speak for all of the 'community-based start-ups' at Pop. So don't do it, eh?


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> I figured it wouldn't.
> You really are in no position at all to speak for all of the 'community-based start-ups' at Pop. So don't do it, eh?



I will speak as I find thanks.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I will speak as I find thanks.


You've spoken to all of the start ups in Pop and asked them their opinions on this and they all same the same thing? Like fuck you have.

Like I said, you really are in no position at all to speak for all of the 'community-based start-ups' at Pop


----------



## snowy_again (Apr 19, 2016)

Who would you suggest is?


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> You've spoken to all of the start ups in Pop and asked them their opinions on this and they all same the same thing? Like fuck you have.
> 
> Like I said, you really are in no position at all to speak for all of the 'community-based start-ups' at Pop



I asked two. And spoke to someone in charge.

It's hard to imagine why the traders would object to Pop Ritzy - and others - bringing potential customers to the event space.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I asked two. And spoke to someone in charge.


Two?!  So you are indeed in no position whatsoever to speak for all of the 'community-based start-ups' at Pop.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Who would you suggest is?


Why should anyone be? Different traders will have different opinions, unless they've turned into a Borg-like mono-thought collective. I've certainly heard dissenting voices from some of the traders I know there, but I wouldn't be daft enough to start presenting their opinions as the thoughts of everyone there.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Two?!  So you are indeed in no position whatsoever to speak for all of the 'community-based start-ups' at Pop.



I doubt it would take any effort to accumulate more testimony to prove such an obvious point.

In fact asking the question made me look very stupid indeed.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I doubt it would take any effort to accumulate more testimony to prove such an obvious point.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 19, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Who would you suggest is?



The manager. I'd take him as something of a spokesman.

And he laughed at the notion that traders objected to Pop Ritzy.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The manager. I'd take him as something of a spokesman.
> 
> And he laughed at the notion that traders objected to Pop Ritzy.


Oh, that's settled then. It's all one big happy family there and every last trader is totally on message. Because the manager said so. And everyone loves him too, obviously.

And any Ritzy footfall is good for every single business there, regardless of what the business is. That's all sorted then.  Thanks for clearing it up.


----------



## deadringer (Apr 19, 2016)

editor said:


> You're actually presenting this as an argument?  Several of their expensive film shows have been marked as sold out. They are charging a minimum of £13 per adult ticket to sit in what has to be the most stripped down, basic corporate cinema in London. Other events charge more - like £25 a film ticket with a bit of breakfast thrown in. They are charging premium rates, despite the lack of dedicated facilities compared to a regular cinema..



You have no idea of what their costs are, and without those it's impossible to work out whether the are doing very nicely out of Pop, or not.



> Cineworld have no particular reputation as philanthropists, so I see no reason to suppose that they're not doing nicely out of this, both financially and PR-wise. After all, that's what multi nationals do. Make money. And if they don't, they usually bugger off.
> 
> But feel free to present your proof that they're actually losing money and doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2016)

deadringer said:


> You have no idea of what their costs are, and without those it's impossible to work out whether the are doing very nicely out of Pop, or not.


Given that they're managing to sell out tickets at rip off prices for a makeshift cinema with the most basic of facilities, I'd say they're sitting pretty myself. I imagine their association with the venture is nicely ticking off some PR boxes too - but feel free to prove otherwise.

And just a reminder of the kind of company we're talking about here:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> But even by quantifying press inches / click throughs into £$ they'd struggle to break three figures surely?



It's impossible to say without access to the footfall of their screenings, and the demographics of the attendees. One thing Cineworld do know, though, is that showing cinema classics and "art-house" brings home the bacon, and that the consumer base that goes to cinemas to see such stuff tend to have high disposable income, so even if Pop is a loss-leader, they're likely to have worked out that the trade and associated goodwill will benefit them elsewhere.


----------



## T & P (Apr 20, 2016)

So unless I got it wrong from the information provided in this thread, a cinema screening event that happens *once a month* is supposed to be some kind of problem?

Really?

Coupled with the posting of photographs taken  right after a massive downpour with the apparent sole purpose of portraying the venue as an unappealing/ failing venture, it all comes across as pretty fucking desperate stuff tbh.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

T & P said:


> So unless I got it wrong from the information provided in this thread, a cinema screening event that happens *once a month* is supposed to be some kind of problem?


Way to miss the point, which is: what is a multi-national corporate doing having a regular presence in the biggest unit in what was supposed to be a community based venture for local independents and start ups?

Here's their own words:


> Pop Brixton is a pioneering new space created with the local community in mind to showcase the best and most exciting independent start-ups and businesses from Brixton and Lambeth, where they can share space, skills and ideas.
> 
> Pop Brixton will house the next generation of local food and drinks entrepreneurs, retail outlets, workspaces for local business and artists, tech enterprises and a community event space, to be enjoyed by all. We are providing an affordable space for start-ups and small businesses, with 10 units available at 20-50% of market rate.



How does Cineworld fit any of those descriptions? And how can a community space be "enjoyed by all" when they're charging £13+ just to watch an old film?



T & P said:


> Coupled with the posting of photographs taken  right after a massive downpour with the apparent sole purpose of portraying the venue as an unappealing/ failing venture, it all comes across as pretty fucking desperate stuff tbh.


Oh I am sorry. Should I just stick to nice flattering, PR friendly photos rather than what I've actually seen when I've passed by?

My main point was the bleakness of the place being brought about by the total lack of greenery - you know the greenery and that 'green oasis'  that was promised from the start. Instead it mainly looks like a big pub garden. Without the garden.


----------



## Rushy (Apr 20, 2016)

T & P said:


> So unless I got it wrong from the information provided in this thread, a cinema screening event that happens *once a month* is supposed to be some kind of problem?


Given that the original Grow! proposal by the original EBS / CTA partnership clearly stated that one of its main sources of income would be corporate sponsorship (which EBS quite honestly stated they have a lot of experience securing), a once a month cinema night seems pretty innocuous and low profile. To be honest, I doubt that I would have noticed it had it not been for all the complaining on here. Even the much more "in your face" Adidas sponsorship only occupied the main stage in Pop plus a structure on the neighbouring carpark for a week. The rest of Pop remained open.

Of course, as we have been oft reminded, Grow!'s original 5 minute presentation which explained that corporate sponsorship was going to be key to funding everything was TLDR for the busy Brixton commentariat.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 20, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Given that the original Grow! proposal by the original EBS / CTA partnership clearly stated that one of its main sources of income would be corporate sponsorship (which EBS quite honestly stated they have a lot of experience securing), a once a month cinema night seems pretty innocuous and low profile. To be honest, I doubt that I would have noticed it had it not been for all the complaining on here. Even the much more "in your face" Adidas sponsorship only occupied the main stage in Pop plus a structure on the neighbouring carpark for a week. The rest of Pop remained open.
> 
> Of course, as we have been oft reminded, Grow!'s original 5 minute presentation which explained that corporate sponsorship was going to be key to funding everything was TLDR for the busy Brixton commentariat.



So corporate sponsorship was in the brief - argument over!


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> So corporate sponsorship was in the brief - argument over!


You'd think so wouldn't you?


----------



## teuchter (Apr 20, 2016)

More accurate to say in the proposal than the brief. The proposal made by the original team, including Edible Bus Stop, when it was still called Grow Brixton. The same proposal with the famous spade and fork.

But this was all pointed out about 200 pages ago.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2016)

T & P said:


> So unless I got it wrong from the information provided in this thread, a cinema screening event that happens *once a month* is supposed to be some kind of problem?



No-one has claimed it's a problem.


----------



## Winot (Apr 20, 2016)

teuchter said:


> More accurate to say in the proposal than the brief. The proposal made by the original team, including Edible Bus Stop, when it was still called Grow Brixton. The same proposal with the famous spade and fork.
> 
> But this was all pointed out about 200 pages ago.



tl;dr


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> So corporate sponsorship was in the brief - argument over!


Here's what was said at the time. I've intentionally chosen a different source to Buzz, btw.





> A team of architects, guerrilla gardeners, cooks and food producers are set to transform an empty space into a “self-sustaining community” in the heart of Brixton.
> 
> The grow:Brixton team won a competition to turn the 4,000 sq. metre site of a former ice rink on Pope’s Road into a “green oasis” for local people.
> 
> ...


This is how it was presented and sold to Brixton. No mention of Adidas or multinational cinema chains getting involved. Perhaps you could find that in the original Grow Brixton brief, as has been claimed?


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

And here's the video at the time: Grow Brixton gears up and talks about its plans in a charming video

We were fucking conned.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 20, 2016)

The involvement of the Ritzy is trivial. 

That of Adidas was brief, and not without benefit. 

I see no con.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 20, 2016)

I expect Edible Bus Stop and the other organisations who put together the original proposal might object to allegations that they conned anyone.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

Just to make things clear: the conning came from supporting one distinct proposal only for its focus to be substantially shifted and new, out of town property developer partners being brought on board without further community consultation. 

I supported the original proposal. I would have not supported what there is now.


----------



## aka (Apr 20, 2016)

200 pages. Well done everyone.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

aka said:


> 200 pages. Well done everyone.


I don't think this should be swept under the carpet. While some apologists here may be happy to see what was supposed to be a community project and a (guffaw) "green oasis" turned into Brixton's biggest pub (complete with regular multinational incursions and unannounced property developer partnerships),  but I've no problem reminding people how I feel locals have been shortchanged.

And although there may be several sneering and dismissive voices here, there's no shortage of people 'in the real world' who are every bit as angry as me about what went on here.


----------



## leanderman (Apr 20, 2016)

The predictable, and characteristic, insults and accusations - along with the claim of backing from others - being a sure sign of an argument lost.


----------



## deadringer (Apr 20, 2016)

editor said:


> I don't think this should be swept under the carpet. While some apologists here may be happy to see what was supposed to be a community project and a (guffaw) "green oasis" turned into Brixton's biggest pub (complete with regular multinational incursions and unannounced property developer partnerships),  but I've no problem reminding people how I feel locals have been shortchanged.
> 
> And although there may be several sneering and dismissive voices here, there's no shortage of people 'in the real world' who are every bit as angry as me about what went on here.




It may be many things, but like a pub?! Seriously?! Either I've lived a very sheltered life, or you go to some very odd pubs, but it's really nothing like a pub! A mini food court at a mini festival maybe, but like a pub?!


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

deadringer said:


> It may be many things, but like a pub?! Seriously?! Either I've lived a very sheltered life, or you go to some very odd pubs, but it's really nothing like a pub! A mini food court at a mini festival maybe, but like a pub?!


Several people have remarked how Pop looks like a pub garden at night time, where its entire economy seems centred around the consumption of alcohol. Perhaps in your haste to start the predictable sneering, you missed those comments, but that's OK.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The predictable, and characteristic, insults and accusations - along with the claim of backing from others - being a sure sign of an argument lost.


Well if the few voices on here say it's true - and THE MANAGER says everyone is totally happy - then the argument must indeed be lost. Everyone loves Pop. FACT!

Oh, wait...



Pic: green oasis at night.


----------



## deadringer (Apr 20, 2016)

editor said:


> Several people have remarked how Pop looks like a pub garden at night time, where its entire economy seems centred around the consumption of alcohol. Perhaps in your haste to start the predictable sneering, you missed those comments, but that's OK.



What pubs have you been to that have a dozen or more traders serving different kinds of foods and drink, shops selling bits and bobs? What would you like a night time economy to focus on, face painting and kids entertainment? The fact is it has a different focus depend what time of day or day of the week it is. You might like to think it's all booze booze booze but the times I've been there, albeit only on Sunday's, it's been nothing of the sort. I imagine weekend day times its focus would be on family's and kids. You know, when they are the kind of people about. Of course night times are going to focus on drinking and entertainment, as that's when adults tend to go out. It's quite basic stuff really.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

deadringer said:


> What pubs have you been to that have a dozen or more traders serving different kinds of foods and drink, shops selling bits and bobs?


Try going on a Friday or Saturday night. It's just one big boozy bar selling expensive beer, complete with DJs and bands thumping out music.  All of which is fine except it's miles away from being the community based green oasis that was promised. 

Where did it say in the original brief that the 'greenhouse' would be be there to provide cover for drinkers, and the "public square" would be stuffed full of tables for drinkers?

Where's the greenery?

Compare this with the picture in post #5979:


----------



## deadringer (Apr 20, 2016)

editor said:


> Try going on a Friday or Saturday night. It's just one big boozy bar selling expensive beer, complete with DJs and bands thumping out music.  All of which is fine except it's miles away from being the community based green oasis that was promised.
> 
> Where did it say in the original brief that the 'greenhouse' would be be there to provide cover for drinkers, and the "public square" would be stuffed full of tables for drinkers?
> 
> ...



Nice selective quoting there!

Careful, people might mistakenly think you have a vested interest in it not having DJ's and live bands there of a weekend.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2016)

deadringer said:


> Careful, people might mistakenly think you have a vested interest in it not having DJ's and live bands there of a weekend.


You'll have to explain - in very simple terms please - what this "vested interest" might be please. Can you do that? I do hope so as I think it's a point that really needs to be clarified swiftly.


----------



## Manter (Apr 23, 2016)

Fundraiser for the fantastic Calais Kitchens in Pop Brixton on 14th May from 6. The kitchens are based both in the camp and in the warehouse and feed 6,000 people every day. That is a *lot* of food (and a lot of money), so please do come along if you can and spread the word- should be a good fun evening and it's a fabulous cause. 

Details below and anyone who wants info about volunteering in the kitchens (which is a incredibly hard work but a blast, I highly recommend it!) just shout.


----------



## organicpanda (Apr 23, 2016)

Manter said:


> Fundraiser for the fantastic Calais Kitchens in Pop Brixton on 14th May from 6. The kitchens are based both in the camp and in the warehouse and feed 6,000 people every day. That is a *lot* of food (and a lot of money), so please do come along if you can and spread the word- should be a good fun evening and it's a fabulous cause.
> 
> Details below and anyone who wants info about volunteering in the kitchens (which is a incredibly hard work but a blast, I highly recommend it!) just shout.



agree about the volunteering in the kitchen, hard work with great camaraderie and you'll probably eat better in the kitchens there than you do at home, you don't need any kitchen skills as there is always the need for chopping salads, washing up etc. but if you do have them that's a bonus


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## Manter (Apr 23, 2016)

organicpanda said:


> agree about the volunteering in the kitchen, hard work with great camaraderie and you'll probably eat better in the kitchens there than you do at home, you don't need any kitchen skills as there is always the need for chopping salads, washing up etc. but if you do have them that's a bonus


I may quote you on our Facebook page! Thankyou x


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2016)

editor said:


> I don't think this should be swept under the carpet. While some apologists here may be happy to see what was supposed to be a community project and a (guffaw) "green oasis" turned into Brixton's biggest pub (complete with regular multinational incursions and unannounced property developer partnerships),  but I've no problem reminding people how I feel locals have been shortchanged.
> 
> And although there may be several sneering and dismissive voices here, there's no shortage of people 'in the real world' who are every bit as angry as me about what went on here.



I hear criticism of what has happened on this site on a regular basis.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 24, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I hear criticism of what has happened on this site on a regular basis.


So do I.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2016)

What Pop Brixton wants, Pop Brixton gets. Goodbye to 140 years of a community pub, hello to a fully licensed "sports" facility until Feb 2017. With a massive screen.



And this coming when what I've been suggesting all along - that Pop Brixton is having a detrimental effect on other Brixton businesses - is proven to be true.



> Groupe Geraud said that the closures were due to a variety of personal factors, rather than rents being unreasonable.
> 
> But some traders say a lack of promotion and subsequent decline in footfall makes it difficult to keep up with rents of around £1,000 a month.
> 
> ...


----------



## organicpanda (May 3, 2016)

editor said:


> What Pop Brixton wants, Pop Brixton gets. Goodbye to 140 years of a community pub, hello to a fully licensed "sports" facility until Feb 2017. With a massive screen.
> 
> View attachment 86502
> 
> And this coming when what I've been suggesting all along - that Pop Brixton is having a detrimental effect on other Brixton businesses - is proven to be true.


one of the food outlets/restaurants told me their takings were down over 30% last year, that's a big chunk of money no matter how good your margins are (and I would bet the shops don't run on that big a margin)


----------



## teuchter (May 3, 2016)

> Groupe Geraud is now trying to fill the empty spaces. An agreement between the operators and Lambeth Council means the shops will not be available to prospective foodtraders.
> 
> Ghailane added: “Lot 27 has been marketed and will be classic trade only.” He said Lot 46 will also be for classic trade when advertised.



What's this agreement with Lambeth? Units have to be offered to non-nu traders if they become vacant? Or just non-food?


----------



## editor (May 4, 2016)

organicpanda said:


> one of the food outlets/restaurants told me their takings were down over 30% last year, that's a big chunk of money no matter how good your margins are (and I would bet the shops don't run on that big a margin)


That's enough to make many businesses unprofitable. Still, I'm sure there'll be some big chain or well marketed quasi-independent along soon to fill the gap.


----------



## Rushy (May 4, 2016)

teuchter said:


> What's this agreement with Lambeth? Units have to be offered to non-nu traders if they become vacant? Or just non-food?


As the markets were taking off and everyone and their dog wanted to open a restaurant, planning introduced a condition which set a maximum proportion of A3. Purpose is to protect retail.

One of the shops to leave is a jewellery shop, I think.


----------



## Winot (May 4, 2016)

Are the foodie places that are closing down in the Village the ones that were criticised a few years back for taking customers away from 'real Brixton' businesses? And are the businesses in Pop Brixton that are responsible the ones that are paying unaffordable rents or the ones paying subsidised rents?


----------



## CH1 (May 4, 2016)

Winot said:


> Are the foodie places that are closing down in the Village the ones that were criticised a few years back for taking customers away from 'real Brixton' businesses? And are the businesses in Pop Brixton that are responsible the ones that are paying unaffordable rents or the ones paying subsidised rents?


Be interesting to know how the rents in Pop compare with those in the Vilaage. Anyone know? And business rates?


----------



## editor (May 4, 2016)

Winot said:


> Are the foodie places that are closing down in the Village the ones that were criticised a few years back for taking customers away from 'real Brixton' businesses?


Most of the criticisms I recall were about Champagne bars opening up, rising rents and the refocussing of the Village from the original aims to "rebuild the social life of the market" into a bona fide tourist trap for middle class foodies.


----------



## teuchter (May 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Be interesting to know how the rents in Pop compare with those in the Vilaage. Anyone know? And business rates?



Amongst all the discussion about all this, pinning down any actual figures seems to be a low priority.


----------



## editor (May 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Be interesting to know how the rents in Pop compare with those in the Vilaage. Anyone know? And business rates?


As I understand it there's quite a range of different rents being applied within the Villaaaage, with traders on different leases, so I don't think there's a 'standard' rate that applies to all.

Pop Brixton's commercial units are charged between £900/month per container plus a 10% service charge up to a hefty £1,200 plus that 10% service charge sting.

Notably: " The length of the lease may also be shorter, or we may look to step rent levels up each year." I've no idea about business rates. 

Future Brixton


----------



## teuchter (May 4, 2016)

I noted this afternoon that when it's not raining and miserable, pop brixton doesn't look raining and miserable. It seemed quite busy.


----------



## SpamMisery (May 4, 2016)

You've unhelpfully captured some greenery too


----------



## editor (May 4, 2016)

Original claim: 


> The grow:brixton focus is to use food growing as a tool to connect people with each other and where their food comes from.


Now it should be:


> The pop:brixton focus is to use bars and food outlets as a tool to connect people with each other and spend money.


And:


> The grow:brixton site will promote the growing of food and horticulture to a much wider audience, reaching out to the unconverted and fuse it with the diverse and unique culture of Brixton and surrounding areas.


To: 


> The pop:brixton site will promote the drinking of pricey booze and street food to a narrow audience, reaching out to the those with enough spare cash to drink far away from the  diverse and unique culture of Brixton and surrounding areas.


----------



## teuchter (May 4, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> You've unhelpfully captured some greenery too


They could do with getting it to grow a bit more though. Not reasonable to expect that over the winter but this summer is their first fair chance to expand the greenery.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 5, 2016)

I still haven't made it to Kriket. Their chef did a guest stint at Le Coq and cooked a rotisserie kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff. How nice does that sound?


----------



## Manter (May 8, 2016)

. This is next weekend at pop Brixton in aid of the brilliant Calais Kitchens- who are now feeding 5,000 people across Calais and Dunkirk with more arriving every day: including lots of very young unaccompanied minors. Please go, and please be generous!!


----------



## aka (May 9, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I still haven't made it to Kriket. Their chef did a guest stint at Le Coq and cooked a rotisserie kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff. How nice does that sound?


Very - to answer your question.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 9, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I still haven't made it to Kriket. Their chef did a guest stint at Le Coq and cooked a rotisserie kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff. How nice does that sound?



Not as interesting as a young chef rotisserie'd on a bed of there own turgid marketing with a dash of smugness to add to the spice.

I don't know the chef in question - but really they should all just stfu and cook me some food.


----------



## stethoscope (May 10, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> I still haven't made it to Kriket. Their chef did a guest stint at Le Coq and cooked a rotisserie kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff. How nice does that sound?



It sounds like pretentiousness over provision.


----------



## Winot (May 10, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It sounds like pretentiousness over provision.



What's pretentious about grilled meat, rice and a chutney  Saffron is a really common flavouring for rice in the Middle East and wild garlic is in season. 

Unless you think all 'foreign' food is pretentious.


----------



## blameless77 (May 10, 2016)

deadringer said:


> What pubs have you been to that have a dozen or more traders serving different kinds of foods and drink, shops selling bits and bobs? What would you like a night time economy to focus on, face painting and kids entertainment? The fact is it has a different focus depend what time of day or day of the week it is. You might like to think it's all booze booze booze but the times I've been there, albeit only on Sunday's, it's been nothing of the sort. I imagine weekend day times its focus would be on family's and kids. You know, when they are the kind of people about. Of course night times are going to focus on drinking and entertainment, as that's when adults tend to go out. It's quite basic stuff really.



No, weekday daytimes it's a ghost town, with tumbleweed blowing through...even at lunchtime.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 10, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It sounds like pretentiousness over provision.


Except of course it isn't. It's an ancient way to provide a lot of food. 

When you reply for the sake of just wanting to disagree you should at least try to make sense


----------



## SpamMisery (May 10, 2016)

blameless77 said:


> No, weekday daytimes it's a ghost town, with tumbleweed blowing through...even at lunchtime.



Well that's not true. I've been there a few times midweek during the working day and ghost town it has not been. Maybe it has peaks and troughs?


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

blameless77 said:


> No, weekday daytimes it's a ghost town, with tumbleweed blowing through...even at lunchtime.


Almost every time I've gone past in the day it's been empty - I've even taken photos that show that. Of course, it's a different story at weekend evenings when it turns into a council-sponsored bar/club.

When you walk through Station Road to get there, you really get a feeling for how Pop Brixton appears to have been beamed down from an entirely different place. It was supposed to be for all the community, but you won't see many faces from those people who work and shop right next to the place.


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It sounds like pretentiousness over provision.


What do you mean? On my estate the small of rotisserie kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff regularly pervades the evening air.


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## Winot (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> What do you mean? On my estate the small of rotisserie kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff regularly pervades the evening air.



I doubt anyone on your estate cooks their chicken in a tandoor either. So does Khans get the same 'little Englander' reaction?


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

Winot said:


> I doubt anyone on your estate cooks their chicken in a tandoor either. So does Khans get the same 'little Englander' reaction?


Way to miss the point, sunshine.


----------



## stethoscope (May 10, 2016)

Winot said:


> What's pretentious about grilled meat, rice and a chutney  Saffron is a really common flavouring for rice in the Middle East and wild garlic is in season.
> 
> Unless you think all 'foreign' food is pretentious.



Nice insinuation of racism there 

It was this that I was referring to especially:



			
				Mr Retro said:
			
		

> I still haven't made it to Kriket. Their chef did a guest stint at Le Coq and…



How some people wine and dine eh?!

Jay would be proud.


----------



## stethoscope (May 10, 2016)

I love the way that the Oxbridge-ite thinks he has to explain grilled meat, saffron rice and chutney


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## Winot (May 10, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I love the way that the Oxbridge-ite thinks he has to explain grilled meat, saffron rice and chutney



Nope, not rising to it.  Have a nice day


----------



## Mr Retro (May 10, 2016)

Winot said:


> I doubt anyone on your estate cooks their chicken in a tandoor either. So does Khans get the same 'little Englander' reaction?


No of course not! Kkans is on the approved list silly Oxbridge-ite


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It was this that I was referring to especially:


This all sounds rather jolly at Le Coq:
"Our private dining room is painted a dusky grey-green, boasts a solid oak table, low level lamps made of reclaimed chicken egg pails and a glitter-ball style cushioned alcove. It can be used for groups of up to fourteen people."


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## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2016)

Winot said:


> What's pretentious about grilled meat, rice and a chutney  Saffron is a really common flavouring for rice in the Middle East and wild garlic is in season.
> 
> Unless you think all 'foreign' food is pretentious.



There's nothing pretentious about "grilled meat, rice and a chutney". However, what was mentioned wasn't "grilled meat, rice and a chutney", it was "rotisserie  kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff", which while it has grilled meat, rice and a chutney as its' constituents, is far more pretentious in the way of verbal presentation.

But you know this already, or you wouldn't have tried to take the pretentious menu-waffle down-market.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> This all sounds rather jolly at Le Coq:
> "Our private dining room is painted a dusky grey-green, boasts a solid oak table, low level lamps made of reclaimed chicken egg pails and a glitter-ball style cushioned alcove. It can be used for groups of up to fourteen people."



So basically the walls look like they're coated with pus.


----------



## Angellic (May 10, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So basically the walls look like they're coated with pus.



I'd have thought Lambs Ears (Stachys byzantina)


----------



## Mr Retro (May 10, 2016)

Only just checked Le Coqs menu there. Didn't realise it was a rotisserie. Krickets chef must be talented if he can just pitch up and cook a kid goat on the rotisserie as well as the great food he, by all accounts, turns out at kricket. Makes me want to try it even more.


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

In the interests of science and good reporting, I popped into Pop today and this is what I saw. Not a single tourist/customer to be found anywhere, while outside Station Road was positively bustling with shoppers, coffee drinkers, traders, people chatting etc etc.

The place really does seem to exist outside of the community its located within.


----------



## T & P (May 10, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's nothing pretentious about "grilled meat, rice and a chutney". However, what was mentioned wasn't "grilled meat, rice and a chutney", it was "rotisserie  kid goat with wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff", which while it has grilled meat, rice and a chutney as its' constituents, is far more pretentious in the way of verbal presentation.
> 
> But you know this already, or you wouldn't have tried to take the pretentious menu-waffle down-market.


I don't think it's pretentious. That kind of descriptive language on menus is actually fairly common in this country, and not just at expensive or posh restaurants but also many 'normal', inexpensive eateries including pizzerias and even pubs serving Sunday roasts.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2016)

T & P said:


> I don't think it's pretentious. That kind of descriptive language on menus is actually fairly common in this country, and not just at expensive or posh restaurants but also many 'normal', inexpensive eateries including pizzerias and even pubs serving Sunday roasts.



It's pretentious in context to winot's attempt to re-word it to sound less precious. Why would he have done so, unless he didn't -secretly, obviously! - think it was pretentious in the first place? 

Also, I've never yet seen anywhere outside of a London-Turkish eaterie selling any form of pilaff without being pretentious!


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

I'd suggest that the pretentiousness - or lack of - such menus depends very much on what people are used to and it's very obvious that some posters here have the money to frequent restaurants where such flowery menus are commonplace.

Unfortunately for them they seem to have no understanding how others less well off may not be accustomed to such fanciful (or expensive) dishes or why stuff about "wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff" might sound like utter cockwank.

Seeing as Knahs was brought up as a cheap shot against me, allow me to illustrate what their menu looks like:


> *Butter Chicken Special HR £8.95 *
> Pieces of chicken tikka and tandoori chicken cooked in a rich and creamy sauce
> *Chicken Tikka Bhuna HR £7.95 *
> Barbecued chicken cooked with special herbs in a medium hot sauce


_Normal_ language.


----------



## cuppa tee (May 10, 2016)

possibly not pretentious but deffo aimed at the aspirational and bordering on snobbish
will help repel the lower orders who they hope will be frightened by a four syllable word for grill


----------



## gdubz (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> I'd suggest that the pretentiousness - or lack of - such menus depends very much on what people are used to and it's very obvious that some posters here have the money to frequent restaurants where such flowery menus are commonplace.
> 
> Unfortunately for them they seem to have no understanding how others less well off may not be accustomed to such fanciful (or expensive) dishes or why stuff about "wild garlic chutney and saffron pilaff" might sound like utter cockwank.
> 
> ...



Isn't 8 quid a bit steep for families in Brixton


----------



## sealion (May 10, 2016)

My weed supplier uses loads of jargon and fancy words for his produce.It's all bollocks but people seem to like things with a fancy name tag on it.


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

gdubz said:


> Isn't 8 quid a bit steep for families in Brixton


Maybe it is, but there's loads of cheaper options and unlike most of the places in Pop Brixton, you get proper seats, tables, cutlery, crockery, toilet etc and you can bring in your own booze and take your time there.


----------



## gdubz (May 10, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> My weed supplier uses loads of jargon and fancy words for his produce.It's all bollocks but people seem to like things with a fancy name tag on it.


Sounds like a gentrifier. Now we can have a neat thing where urbs burn the witch while you bun the kaya. Bless up.


----------



## gdubz (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> Maybe it is, but there's loads of cheaper options and unlike most of the places in Pop Brixton, you get proper seats, tables, cutlery, crockery, toilet etc and you can bring in your own booze and take your time there.


You're probably right. I was thinking more about when kids get on the bus for one stop, loaded with a fiver and get a (really dirty chicken) meal (and, yes, I would eat that but it is not appropriate for children all the time). I'm pretty sure I don't have the answer but I worry that it is not that.


----------



## sealion (May 10, 2016)

gdubz said:


> Sounds like a gentrifier. Now we can have a neat thing where urbs burn the witch while you bun the kaya. Bless up.


He ain't no gentrifier Just has all the spiel and it works on those who like to pay a bit more so they can feel special.


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

gdubz said:


> You're probably right. I was thinking more about when kids get on the bus for one stop, loaded with a fiver and get a (really dirty chicken) meal (and, yes, I would eat that but it is not appropriate for children all the time). I'm pretty sure I don't have the answer but I worry that it is not that.


I think the less trendy chicken shops have got that market cornered rather than Pop. I passed the Morleys near me and it was rammed with queues outside whereas, well, you saw the ghost town of Pop around the same time.


----------



## gdubz (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> I think the less trendy chicken shops have got that market cornered rather than Pop. I passed the Morleys near me and it was rammed with queues outside whereas, well, you saw the ghost town of Pop around the same time.


No I was talking about morleys and the like


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2016)

gdubz said:


> Isn't 8 quid a bit steep for families in Brixton



Speaking of cockwank...


----------



## T & P (May 10, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's pretentious in context to winot's attempt to re-word it to sound less precious. Why would he have done so, unless he didn't -secretly, obviously! - think it was pretentious in the first place?


 Perhaps he questioned the previous poster's claim of pretentiousness and felt an explanation in simpler wording was required? 

This is all a bit silly and our judgement is being influenced by our respective opinions of any given business or venue, of course. If we were all made to take a survey on restaurant menus whereby the name of the business was blacked out, I reckon many of us would dismiss some menus as a pile of tosh only to find out later we had read through them many times while eating at the place in question and didn't they were pretentious at all.

Anyways, how much a restaurant actually charges should be of far more importance- even if some of them open themselves to scorn by their marketing/ literature.


----------



## felixgolightly (May 10, 2016)

They do also have a 'galaxy of grills', (a mixed grill to normal people). Thankfully they don't offer a 'meat curry'.


----------



## teuchter (May 10, 2016)

> Luscious pieces of chicken tossed in olive oil with mustard seeds and a touch of coriander, sweet basil and various herbs and spices


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

felixgolightly said:


> They do also have a 'galaxy of grills', (a mixed grill to normal people). Thankfully they don't offer a 'meat curry'.


But it's all pretty straightforward, understandable descriptions and nothing like this kind of airy fairy bullshit from le Coq: 






What the fuck is a labneh? And a comte and morbier? I barely understand any of the above.


----------



## Winot (May 10, 2016)

I think this is where I came in 





Winot said:


> This thread really illustrates the Manichean nature of U75.
> 
> 1. First, a decision needs to be taken - is a venue/business Good or Bad?
> 
> ...


----------



## Winot (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> What the fuck is a labneh?



Let me google that for you

HTH


----------



## editor (May 10, 2016)

Winot said:


> Let me google that for you
> 
> HTH


Gosh that's funny - and a sure fire sign that you've completely lost the argument. What kind of menu is it if people have to consult Google just to understand what's on offer?


----------



## Winot (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> Gosh that's funny - and a sure fire sign that you've completely lost the argument. What kind of menu is it if people have to consult Google just to understand what's on offer?



I didn't realise we were having an argument. I just thought you wanted to know what Labneh was. It's nice, you'd like it


----------



## felixgolightly (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> But it's all pretty straightforward, understandable descriptions and nothing like this kind of airy fairy bullshit from le Coq:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure to be honest. But I think labneh is something North African??

Just didn't think describing the meat on offer as kid goat as opposed to just meat was particularly wanky. That's all. Most menus do some sort of explanation, I guess the current fashion is to try and sum it up in one line, rather than title followed by description and list of ingredients.


----------



## uk benzo (May 10, 2016)

editor said:


> Gosh that's funny - and a sure fire sign that you've completely lost the argument. What kind of menu is it if people have to consult Google just to understand what's on offer?



Labneh is a thick yogurt paste that's quite soury-acidic. It makes up part of the working persons breakfast in the Levant. I know this because I'm an Arab.


----------



## Manter (May 10, 2016)

And I know it because I have eaten middle eastern food in the past! I had no fucking idea what Injera was till I ate somewhere that sold it- I didn't lose my shit over needing to google the menu, I asked the waiter. I am still not sure what ackee is and kaszca I need explained at regular intervals (I know I like it- I know it's polish. Beyond that....) 

If there is something you don't know because you don't know anything about that area's foods or customs, you ask, you learn, you show interest in the people and cultures around you. If you are going to sneer about them using foreign words you may as well move to fucking Stoke. 

This thread is utterly, utterly ridiculous.


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## Manter (May 10, 2016)

I was coming to post fundraiser details as the line up has been confirmed, but I am just stunned by the utter, utter idiocy in evidence


----------



## editor (May 11, 2016)

Manter said:


> And I know it because I have eaten middle eastern food in the past! I had no fucking idea what Injera was till I ate somewhere that sold it- I didn't lose my shit over needing to google the menu, I asked the waiter. I am still not sure what ackee is and kaszca I need explained at regular intervals (I know I like it- I know it's polish. Beyond that....)
> 
> If there is something you don't know because you don't know anything about that area's foods or customs, you ask, you learn, you show interest in the people and cultures around you. If you are going to sneer about them using foreign words you may as well move to fucking Stoke.
> 
> This thread is utterly, utterly ridiculous.


I'm afraid you've missed the point here, but no matter. It is, as you say, a ridiculous argument anyway.

I'd suggest you start a separate thread for the fundraiser and post it up on the Buzz listings (if you haven't done that already).


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

FWIW, I really like labneh 

This went down a slightly odd diversion overnight. I would have thought that the issue was not so much foods from all over the world (which is of course interesting - something that's always nice to discover), but the dynamics of class and capital surrounding it - especially when middle class liberals pick up on the next working class foodstuff from somewhere in the world and appropriate it into the next expensive 'signature dish' and the metropolitan elite media fawn all over it. 

After all, if I want Persian/Iranian, I'll go to an Arab family run little place in W2, rather than a swanky minimalist N1 restaurant called 'Le Balls' run by an enterpreneur registered in Guernsey where they'll re-package it - but 5 star reviews in the Guardian and guest chef....


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

What has this to do with Pop? I think it has a lot to do with Pop.

There are surely better ways that Londons diverse communities (and their food dishes) can be represented and supported rather than in a gated (and not a 'public') space which seems to be invested in capital interests, such as Pop is. One which has constantly shifted from its intended purpose yet still thinks itself 'of the community'. 

Perhaps celebrate previously unheard of local Arab or Indian chefs for example, rather than reinforcing the class/capital structure of 'guest chef from Guardian rated London restaurant'. That would be true community oriented. Pop, as we know, is very much a symptom of the problem of gentrification, of capital and class, but also a reifier.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Whilst it's now got me looking into this a bit more - I stumbled upon this Telegraph review about Kriket. Which rather supports some of my points above about the nature of class/capital dynamics at work here and that it doesn't really represent and support local communities. I'm sure the food is lovely and the (what sound like Westerner) guys who run it are otherwise decent people (one who seems to have travelled to Mumbai to learn such skills and worked previously in a top City restaurant and the other with a background in corporate finance/business acumen).

But, where's the genuine community involvement here - especially for local BME communities? For truly supporting and promoting ethnic culture and cuisine from across the world? How is this not merely reifying (especially white/Western) capital and class interests? Perhaps the middle class, privileged liberals here who seem to be quick to jump on anybody who question/criticise some of the motivations of this stuff with lazy accusations of 'racism' care to comment?


----------



## Hoss (May 11, 2016)

editor said:


> What the fuck is a labneh? And a comte and morbier? I barely understand any of the above.



Comté and Morbier are cheeses from Eastern France.

Comté quite similar to Gruyere, a fairly well-known Swiss cheese.


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## teuchter (May 11, 2016)

"Otherwise decent"


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

teuchter said:


> "Otherwise decent"



Failing to respond to any of the main points of the posts but pulling out two words. Lovely.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

No thoughts on the dynamics of class/capital here? About places such as Pop genuinely supporting/promoting local communities, especially BME communities in this instance and their cultures/cuisines, etc.? Rather than being part of that reification of capital interests and their structures?


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## Winot (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> No thoughts on the dynamics of class/capital here? About places such as Pop genuinely supporting/promoting local communities, especially BME communities in this instance and their cultures/cuisines, etc.? Rather than being part of that reification of capital interests and their structures?



There are some interesting points to debate there, you're right. But I'm not really prepared to engage with someone who personalises the issues in the way that you have - sorry.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Winot said:


> There are some interesting points to debate there, you're right. But I'm not really prepared to engage with someone who personalises the issues in the way that you have - sorry.



Like jumping on me with implications of 'racism' or explaining 'foreign' food as I clearly don't already know? Thanks for your privilege.

It seems to me that quite a few here simply don't want to engage with those points - really important ones about class and capital and gentrification and what's happening in/to communities. Which Pop is part fond also drives to some extent. Because, otherwise you'd be talking about it and analysing it and working towards how it can be changed, rather than the descending into quick pot shots at Ed and assorted chattering class distractions that now seems to be the default for this forum. It's Brixton Blairism.


----------



## Ms T (May 11, 2016)

Labneh is sold in Nour and therefore readily available to all Brixtonites interested in Middle Eastern food. You can get all kinds of "pretentious" ingredients there - harissa, date syrup, pomegranate molasses.

Comte is a French cheese you can get in Lidl! It's a really nice cheese.  That menu at Le Coq sounds really good....


----------



## Ms T (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> No thoughts on the dynamics of class/capital here? About places such as Pop genuinely supporting/promoting local communities, especially BME communities in this instance and their cultures/cuisines, etc.? Rather than being part of that reification of capital interests and their structures?


My understanding is that there are quite a few local people who've started businesses in Pop. And the same goes for Brixton village. I know some of them. Cornercopia when it started was an interesting attempt to promote local food - elderflower cordial made with flowers foraged in Brockwell Park for example. I was once asked if I'd be interested in supplying them with sourdough. I'm not sure a couple of loaves a week would have cut the mustard!!


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

And how did they start businesses in Pop? (or Brixton Village)? Were just able to do so? Managed to secure a loan in these tricky economic times from the bank because they wanted to 'have a go and better themselves' but had very little? Was there no capital/class privilege at work here? Look at Kriket, it's not some sort of 'start-up' built from absolutely nothing is it? What about working class people in Brixton? What about BME people who haven't got those capital/class privileges in order to start something? How do they fit into this? Why are Kriket a specialist in 'Indian small plates' but are two seemingly white chaps with a background in business and an already established chef going to India to learn their cuisine? Why is Pop not offering local say Indian chefs who might be slaving away at minimum wage trying to make something for themselves?


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## leanderman (May 11, 2016)

Cherry-picking an example, Kriket, to try to prove a point. 

Other businesses at Pop do not fit your theory.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Cherry-picking an example, Kriket, to try to prove a point.
> 
> Other businesses at Pop do not fit your theory.



Which ones. List them. If they are genuine representative of local community 'start-ups' then fine, there's no criticism from me. But equally, that doesn't absolve Pop and anything I've said about its inherent class/capital interests and its role in gentrification and how that affects communities.


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## Ms T (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And how did they start businesses in Pop? (or Brixton Village)? Were just able to do so? Managed to secure a loan in these tricky economic times from the bank because they wanted to 'have a go and better themselves' but had very little? Was there no capital/class privilege at work here? Look at Kriket, it's not some sort of 'start-up' built from absolutely nothing is it? What about working class people in Brixton? What about BME people who haven't got those capital/class privileges in order to start something? How do they fit into this? Why are Kriket a specialist in 'Indian small plates' but are two seemingly white chaps with a background in business and an already established chef going to India to learn their cuisine? Why is Pop not offering local say Indian chefs who might be slaving away at minimum wage trying to make something for themselves?


The people I know started businesses in Brixton Village when they were being offered three months free rent by Spacemakers. 

Some of the businesses in Pop started as street food ventures. I don't believe they are all backed by big business.


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## Ms T (May 11, 2016)

By the way, Mr Khan is one of the biggest capitalists around here! He bought my local dry cleaner when the owner wanted to retire, told him he was keeping it as a business, then promptly turned it into a "luxury" flat.


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Ms T said:


> The people I know started businesses in Brixton Village when they were being offered three months free rent by Spacemakers.
> 
> Some of the businesses in Pop started as street food ventures. I don't believe they are all backed by big business.



Again, how does this change anything I've said about the nature of class/capital, etc? For those individual businesses that genuinely started up from little, good.

They might have been offered some help through Spacemakers with an offer of 'three months free rent', but ultimately where's the capital/class interest here? It's with LAP and Groupe Geraud. So, where does this again actually benefit the local community as such and place them in at the centre of it?


----------



## leanderman (May 11, 2016)

How do you define 'the local community' and 'benefit'?


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Ms T said:


> By the way, Mr Khan is one of the biggest capitalists around here! He bought my local dry cleaner when the owner wanted to retire, told him he was keeping it as a business, then promptly turned it into a "luxury" flat.



And? I've never been to Khan's and I'm not defending him?


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

leanderman said:


> How do you define 'the local community' and 'benefit'?



Owned by the community, run for the community, for the benefit of the community.

Not by and tied up with those with capital/class interests.


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

London & Associated Properties, based in W1, part of the Bisichi mining enterprise, floated on the LSE are _clearly_ part of the community.


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## leanderman (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Owned by the community, run for the community, for the benefit of the community.
> 
> Not by and tied up with those with capital/class interests.



That would rule out having traders at Pop.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

leanderman said:


> That would rule out having traders at Pop.



And all I'm arguing is that Pop is about class/capital interests. not really about community, so yes


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

But y'know, I'm a believer in say having food stalls, craft outlets, 'start-up' traders, etc. there whereby they don't have to pay hardly or any rent (I believe there's some criticism emerging that the rents are increasingly preventing small operators/start-ups being able to launch there anyway), and any profits made invested back into the local community - for projects for kids, or social housing. Where's the capital flows with Pop? (that's a genuine question - can someone point me to anything on the financial model in operation)


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## newbie (May 11, 2016)

well, I was pleased when Pop poached reprezent radio from Peckham but that's just localism, when in fact competition for 'community' funded outfits isn't really beneficial.  There are only so many groups with funding to go round.


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## leanderman (May 11, 2016)

The rents probably are too high, except for those on subsidised deals. 

Half of any Pop operator profits are supposed to be returned to the council.


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

newbie said:


> well, I was pleased when Pop poached reprezent radio from Peckham but that's just localism, when in fact competition for 'community' funded outfits isn't really beneficial.  There are only so many groups with funding to go round.



Any competition for funding is bad, another of my points about the dynamics of class/capital and gentrification. But, there's plenty of capital out there - but as per usual it doesn't make it to communities and groups for the community does it? It flows outside because that's what capital/class interest does - I think this is true of Pop and Brixton Village (if not individual traders there - it wasn't really my aim to massively criticise them tbh, I just thought in the context of the last few pages it was worth pointing out though).


leanderman said:


> The rents probably are too high, except for those on subsidised deals.
> 
> Half of any Pop operator profits are supposed to be returned to the council.



Cheers. Why do I rather fear where that money goes (and how much actually reaches the local community) when it finds its way to the council?!


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## BigMoaner (May 11, 2016)

Was at brockwell park the other day, giving my child a run put in the playground. Probably the whitest, most middle class playground I've seen, and I've been to most in south london. All stay at home mums I guess. My bet is Brixton will slowly turn into a nappy valley thing, like Wandsworth is in large parts (but still the local state schools strangely absent of these type of kids).


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## T & P (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Owned by the community, run for the community, for the benefit of the community.
> 
> Not by and tied up with those with capital/class interests.


See, it's the same old issue again. Most of us here, including those who are critical of such ventures as Pop, are perfectly happy to use regularly many other businesses in the area that are not owned, run or for the benefit of the community either. It looks to me as if the only real difference is the location where these individual traders happen to operate out of. As if they were all part of some collective evil hive, as opposed to individual businesses that just happen to be trading from a particular site. It seems hardly logical, let alone fair.


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

So, why not be honest and just say 'its a pop-up business enterprise' then?

It's really much more than about 'location'.


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## newbie (May 11, 2016)

T & P said:


> It looks to me as if the only real difference is the location where these individual traders happen to operate out of.


no, it's who those businesses are aimed at and who they're not aimed at.


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## Rushy (May 11, 2016)

Of course, if Pop had ever been about facilitating startup food ventures for those who can't afford to start food ventures it could be said to have failed. But it was quite clear from the start that one of the main aims was to provide subsidised workspace for some of those who need it. There are several ways they could have done this but the one they proposed was to use the catering units to subsidise the cheaper workspaces, some of which are provided at a discounts of up to 80%. 

Is Pop failing to provide any business space at 50-80% discount as they claim? Is it allocating the discounted units to inappropriate companies / start ups?  We don't really know - even the loudest critics can't see beyond a restaurant having the temerity to served a French cheese course and the fact that Pop gets wet when it rains.


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

It was supposed to be about a proper community spaces and projects and some green from the start wasn't it? I'd say from that perspective its failed*.


*it hasn't really, its what things are 'sold' to the community as and then always morph into something a bit different because there is alway class/capital interests involved


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## Ms T (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And? I've never been to Khan's and I'm not defending him?


Wasn't specifically aimed at you.


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## Ms T (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> But y'know, I'm a believer in say having food stalls, craft outlets, 'start-up' traders, etc. there whereby they don't have to pay hardly or any rent (I believe there's some criticism emerging that the rents are increasingly preventing small operators/start-ups being able to launch there anyway), and any profits made invested back into the local community - for projects for kids, or social housing. Where's the capital flows with Pop? (that's a genuine question - can someone point me to anything on the financial model in operation)


I think the new "food court" near Argos may be fulfilling that function, but have no idea what they're charging for a pitch, or who even owns that land. Does anyone know?


----------



## teuchter (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Failing to respond to any of the main points of the posts but pulling out two words. Lovely.


The "main points" have been gone over ad nauseum. I've nowhere in this thread promoted Pop as something I support. In fact I think I've explicitly agreed with comments that the LA probably shouldn't get involved with business ventures like this because the accountability is so messy. Possibly it would be better for Lambeth simply to rent out the land and use the revenue for benefit elsewhere. I'd rather we discussed questions like that on this thread, but unfortunately it repeatedly descends into stupid arguments about the price of beer, or the wording of a menu, or the number of pot plants compared to a promotional rendering from an initial competition entry. And photos of people not sitting outside on a rainy day.

Criticisms of Pop should be aimed at Lambeth, who ultimately decided whether or not it should go ahead. They could also be aimed at those managing it but those criticisms should be with reference to what was actually proposed, and whether they are fulfilling that promise or not, rather than focusing on the non-appearance of the famous spade and fork.

This whole thread is also full of criticisms aimed at the people and businesses who have taken up units there. I don't think it's fair to make personal judgements on those people. They have made a commercial decision to operate their business in that location just like any business in any other location. The types of businesses that appear are the symptoms and not the causes of the changes that are happening in Brixton. You can argue that whoever _selects_ those businesses has an impact on whether gentrification processes are reinforced or moderated. Fine, do that - that will be Lambeth and or Pop themselves, but that has to take into account the context in which they make those decisions. I think there may well be valid criticisms of Lambeth's decisions about what Pop is. There might be valid criticism of Pop themselves _if _they are deviating from what their proposal _actually_ promised.

Why did I pick out the words "otherwise decent"? Because the clear implication is that you have judged these people's behaviour, in some other aspect, not to be decent. You have passed moral judgement on these specific people because they have opened a business in a development that you don't like for broader reasons, reasons that are hardly within their control. Sure they might be representative symptom of a process. But how does that justify you calling their "decency" into question?

Maybe you can explain what they should have done. Should they have opened their business somewhere else instead? Where would be "decent" for them to open their business? I take it these standards are to applied to all businesses everywhere?


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## BigMoaner (May 11, 2016)

Blame the game


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Yes, I admit it was a little unfair of me given I know very little about them other than whats been reported in the media. However, it still demonstrates how class/capital interest and gentrification is intertwined and Pop is very much a symptom of that but also to a degree driving it too. That Pop, that the council, and all the powers involved haven't delivered a proper true community space (whether that be new social good projects such as housing or education, or local people trying to start up something like a food stall from the ground up) is of course my primary beef with all of this.

However, I don't see how the likes of Kriket are entirely immune to criticism. I used an example because they are part of that class/capital/gentrification dynamic whether they like it or not. They've got a background of the food and business industry before this 'venture' - and I suspect they looked at the demographic and what was on offer at Pop and it made sense as a commercial decision. They could have made a decision to not get involved in something like Pop if they wanted to do  something in the local community. In fact, given that I'm anti-capitalist and generally critical of anyone starting something up for profit (see Cereal Cafe), then to a point I will make a judgement on those people all the same.

Personally, if I had the capital to set something up in my local community, I'd boycott places like Pop for a start and ensure it remained grassroots and ground-up. Better still, we smash capital in the first place so its not the barrier.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Anyway, I'm sure they don't give a shit about what someone like me says on the internet  when they've got the likes of Michel Roux Jr recommending them:
London's Best Restaurants According to Top Chefs


----------



## leanderman (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And how did they start businesses in Pop? What about working class people in Brixton? What about BME people who haven't got those capital/class privileges in order to start something? How do they fit into this? Why are Kriket a specialist in 'Indian small plates' but are two seemingly white chaps with a background in business



I know three people with businesses at Pop. Two through my kids' school, a third is a neighbour. 

Of the three, two are BME and the other lives on the St Matthews estate.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I know three people with businesses at Pop. Two through my kids' school, a third is a neighbour.
> 
> Of the three, two are BME and the other lives on the St Matthews estate.



Still doesn't really make any substantial difference to the meat (see what I did there?) of my posts and the make up of class/capital, of Pop, and its relationship to gentrification and the wider local community.


----------



## BigMoaner (May 11, 2016)

find it interesting that a few small businesses are being slated in pop, where as we are all posting on probably one of the biggest engines of gentrification brixton has going?

thornton heath can only dream of its own left field, events/review based site. all we've got is an action group who likes to pick up litter and report fly tipping.

sorry ed, it's true - much as i love the site. this site will have had a major impact on the perceptions of brixton as an attractive place.


----------



## leanderman (May 11, 2016)

My post answers your specific question and deals with an element of your meatier point about the extent of Pop's relationship with 'the wider local community'.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> find it interesting that a few small businesses are being slated in pop, where as we are all posting on probably one of the biggest engines of gentrification brixton has going?
> 
> thornton heath can only dream of its own left field, events/review based site. all we've got is an action group who likes to pick up litter and report fly tipping.
> 
> sorry ed, it's true - much as i love the site. this site will have had a major impact on the perceptions of brixton as an attractive place.



Yeah, urban - a non-commercial public internet forum where a lot of the running costs are stumped up by regular contributors/posters and where those posters have more say than most websites/forums in its running and operation. Which was built from nothing by that bastion of capital and class privilege. We're back to lazy Ed criticism again. Come on BigMoaner, think a bit harder than that mate if you're offering up a working class critique.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

leanderman said:


> My post answers your specific question and deals with an element of your meatier point about the extent of Pop's relationship with 'the wider local community'.



No it doesn't  You know three people, 2 BME (who might or might not be working class) and one person who lives on an estate (who I presume to be working class) have started up there. Great. And this somehow makes any substantial difference to anything I've been talking about?


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Anyway, I suspect we're in danger of going around in circles now on a thread of 204 pages of a lot of going around in circles, so have a good rest of day all


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> ...we are all posting on probably one of the biggest engines of gentrification brixton has going?



I've heard it all now...


----------



## editor (May 11, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> find it interesting that a few small businesses are being slated in pop, where as we are all posting on probably one of the biggest engines of gentrification brixton has going?


Oh, please do tell how these boards - with all the endless bunfights and negative comments contained therein - have contributed more to Brixton's gentrification than Brixton Village, Market Row, Pop, Brixton, the new restaurants, the new upmarket flats, property developers, estate agents, trendy shops, PR companies and all the glowing lifestyle press received in national and international newspapers and magazines.


----------



## editor (May 11, 2016)

Ms T said:


> By the way, Mr Khan is one of the biggest capitalists around here! He bought my local dry cleaner when the owner wanted to retire, told him he was keeping it as a business, then promptly turned it into a "luxury" flat.


That's, err, fascinating. But what's it got to do with Pop Brixton or anything else? Why is Khans even being brought up in this discussion?* 

*oh, I know: it's because I go there about once a year so it's being used as a means to attack me


----------



## discobastard (May 11, 2016)

editor said:


> That's, err, fascinating. But what's it got to do with Pop Brixton or anything else? Why is Khans even being brought up in this discussion?*
> 
> *oh, I know: it's because I go there about once a year so it's being used as a means to attack me


Didn't come across that way.  It was being used to legitimately counter the argument, which was interchangeably about a) the descriptions used of food and b) the motivations of local businesses regards the community.  And rife with cherry-picking fallacies!  

ETA - on both sides..


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Failing to respond to any of the main points of the posts but pulling out two words. Lovely.



It's called "teuchtering", otherwise known as hypocrisy-hunting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Like jumping on me with implications of 'racism' or explaining 'foreign' food as I clearly don't already know? Thanks for your privilege.
> 
> It seems to me that quite a few here simply don't want to engage with those points - really important ones about class and capital and gentrification and what's happening in/to communities. Which Pop is part fond also drives to some extent. Because, otherwise you'd be talking about it and analysing it and working towards how it can be changed, rather than the descending into quick pot shots at Ed and assorted chattering class distractions that now seems to be the default for this forum. It's Brixton Blairism.



It's hardly surprising that some people - who might consciously or sub-consciously perceive that they're part of the issue - would be unwilling to engage, and will veer off into fuck knows what side-roads in order to avoid doing so.


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## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> find it interesting that a few small businesses are being slated in pop, where as we are all posting on probably one of the biggest engines of gentrification brixton has going?
> 
> thornton heath can only dream of its own left field, events/review based site. all we've got is an action group who likes to pick up litter and report fly tipping.
> 
> sorry ed, it's true - much as i love the site. this site will have had a major impact on the perceptions of brixton as an attractive place.



I disagree. 
You could claim that when it started, and maybe into the noughties, Urban attracted *some* artists and Bohos to Brixton, but to call it "probably one of the biggest engines of gentrification" is ridiculous. What drives gentrification isn't left-field anything, it's the processing and packaging of pseudo-culture by people who desire to make money out of doing so.


----------



## discobastard (May 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I disagree.
> You could claim that when it started, and maybe into the noughties, Urban attracted *some* artists and Bohos to Brixton, but to call it "probably one of the biggest engines of gentrification" is ridiculous. What drives gentrification isn't left-field anything, it's the processing and packaging of pseudo-culture by people who desire to make money out of doing so.


No, it isn't that. Pseudo-culture is just one of many possible side effects. 

Gentrification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## cuppa tee (May 12, 2016)

that is a tall and sturdy fence that has gone up around the former Canterbury Arms/Pop Fields
reminds me of a donald trump production more than a community project


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

discobastard said:


> No, it isn't that. Pseudo-culture is just one of many possible side effects.
> 
> Gentrification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



That's a *terrible* link! (not a remark aimed at you, but by whoever has made a hotch-potch of so many different theories and analyses). Whoever put that together would do much better to break it down into several linked pages, IMO.

In the context of Brixton, I've been punting for several years that what's been experienced here in the last 5-10 years is a form of "hyper-gentrification" (what came before might be called "standard gentrification) centred around the "buying into" of local cultures - that a proportion of those coming into the area to live, are appealed to by the availability of a safe, controlled version of local cultures being retailed to them. there are similar neighbourhoods in every city, in most "first world" nation-states, alongside other - less culturally-appealing - neighbourhoods that experience the standard form of gentrification over a couple of generations.
The problem with hyper-gentrification is because it operates faster, it tends to manifest effects like displacement much faster, and because our economic system has shifted to a set of principles that don't include helping the displaced except via "the market", those effects are to be feared much more than standard gentrification, where the time and choice available to those who *will* be displaced, is less attenuated.


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## editor (May 12, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> that is a tall and sturdy fence that has gone up around the former Canterbury Arms/Pop Fields
> reminds me of a donald trump production more than a community project


That will enclose the Pop Brixton gated 'community sports' facility. There's a booze licence applied for, natch, because everyone knows that when it comes to Pop, no booze = no popularity.


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## leanderman (May 12, 2016)

My punt is that many people who would live in Fulham, Clapham etc can no longer afford to. 

So some come here. 

This process being centred on housing costs. 

Rather than any buying into, or being sold, a lifestyle or a culture.


----------



## editor (May 12, 2016)

leanderman said:


> My punt is that many people who would live in Fulham, Clapham etc can no longer afford to.
> 
> So some come here.
> 
> ...


There's lots of far cheaper places they could have gone to, so why did they come here if not for the 'lifestyle,' upmarket restaurants, groovy fucker shopping and, of course, the never ending vibrancy?


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

I think VP makes the point pretty clearly above about 'hyper gentrification'…



			
				ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> The problem with hyper-gentrification is because it operates faster, it tends to manifest effects like displacement much faster, and because our economic system has shifted to a set of principles that don't include helping the displaced except via "the market"



The nature of capital is so much more pronounced as gentrification intensifies. Actually, it's the ever accelerating nature of capital that I think is the major difference to previous (say 90s/early 00s) incomers and the more steady gentrification of areas. And at the same time we're seeing the massive change to social and economic government policy and neoliberalism.



editor said:


> There's lots of far cheaper places they could have gone to, so why did they come here if not for the 'lifestyle,' upmarket restaurants, groovy fucker shopping and, of course, the never ending vibrancy?



But I think Ed also has it correct about 'lifestyle'. Stratford is seeing the effects of gentrification post-Olympics - new private apartment developments going up at a rate of knots and the creation of 'E20' of restaurants, shopping and it is being sold as a 'lifestyle'. Most of the people moving there working in the City and commuting to Liverpool Street or Canary Wharf.

There's a reason why Brixton is still seeing and feeling this quicker than Stratford.

The difference in Stratford is that there doesn't appear to be so much spread of that 'lifestyle' beyond that newly invented bit of E20/immediate E15 area at the moment. And it's probably not a co-incidence also that the 'Olympic legacy' hasn't really spread beyond that very same defined small area too - very little has changed towards Canning Town, or Maryland for example. And the same pressures on housing combined with 'redevelopment' of existing social housing which will have the net result of reducing the overall social housing stock is all too evident.

Brixton is clearly seeing its 'lifestyle' offerings being exploited in all this. You even see that how the media and middle class property guides and magazines write about it - 'from riots to cocktail bars', etc. In fact, housing itself is now sold as part of that 'lifestyle' rather than a roof over your head.


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## T & P (May 12, 2016)

Dp


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## T & P (May 12, 2016)

editor said:


> There's lots of far cheaper places they could have gone to, so why did they come here if not for the 'lifestyle,' upmarket restaurants, groovy fucker shopping and, of course, the never ending vibrancy?


Cheaper places in Zone 2, less than three miles from Central London and with a fast Tube line that gets you to heart of the city in 9 minutes?

I'd venture that for a very significant proportion of those who have moved to Brixton in the last 5-10 years and bought/ rented a place, 'vibrancy' was about the last thing on their minds. If anything, blame it on a perceived sense of improved safety (whether justified or not).


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

I wouldn't say its such an either/or tbh.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 12, 2016)

There's probably an amount of those forming part of the 'influx' that are completely oblivious to Brixton's previous 'rep' and have only known it as the vibrant playground for the young and wealthy that is being flogged as...


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There's probably an amount of those forming part of the 'influx' that are completely oblivious to Brixton's previous 'rep' and have only known it as the vibrant playgou d fot the young and wealthy that is being flogged as...



Quite - every property website, newspaper homes supplement, lifestyle and entertainment guide has been hardselling the 'lifestyle' angle of Brixton for yonks now. That it's also affordable (lol for some) to the latest incomers too makes it even more attractive.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 12, 2016)

I came here because I could get into trouble...ha ha...

....barred from the beehive on day one!!!


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## leanderman (May 12, 2016)

Estate agents talk up every area they are selling homes in. It's meaningless drivel. 

There is no conspiracy here to sell Brixton. Its growing popularity is mostly a result of the housing crisis. 

In fact, so-called gentrification and hyper-gentrification fit neatly with periods of (London-wide) house price/rent surges.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 12, 2016)

Estate agents do talk wank. 15 years ago I was looking at an estate agent blurb for Tulse Hill which called it tulse hill village and used an image of the tulse hill pub to demonstrate this quaint....almost rural major traffic junction....


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## teuchter (May 12, 2016)

Brixton is perhaps anomalous on account of reputation. What we are seeing now may be a kind of reversion-to-the-norm relative to other parts of London.

Brixton is in zone 2, at the end of one of the best tube lines in London, has a lot of attractive housing stock, lots of entertainment locally, excellent green spaces, and so on. I don't think I'm alone in having wondered, ten or fifteen years ago, why it remained cheap relative to other parts of London (mostly north London) that appeared to have similarly attractive locations/connections etc. It seemed that lots of people assumed it was much further away from central London than it actually is. Why was that? It might have been due to lingering associations with the riots etc. Until pretty recently, if you mentioned Brixton to anyone it was very likely that the riots would be mentioned, and questions asked about whether it's really safe to live down there. The perception of what it was like to live in Brixton - to those who didn't know it - was a very distorted one.

So, what I think has happened recently, in the context of housing costs going up across the city, is that a kind of threshold was reached where enough people - people who might not previously have considered moving to Brixton but then did so under the pressure of housing prices - have moved here and realised that actually it's quite a nice place to live, and told their mates and so on, and very quickly the perception of Brixton as a slightly dodgy place changed to one of it as a great place to live.

Of course that happened in tandem with various things like the development of the "village" and so on, with plenty of feedback loops coming into play.

So it's not that Brixton's gentrification has somehow raced ahead of comparable parts of the rest of london - just that it's rather suddenly caught up.

I don't think people are moving here because they are buying into a pseudo-culture (whatever that actually is) created specially for them - not really any more so than in other places. I think they are moving here because people's perception of what Brixton is really like has moved closer to the reality of what it's like to live here. Not because a fake reality has been provided for them. Of course, when new demographics move to an area things spring up to meet new demands. The most obvious is of course the massive increase in eating-out options. I don't think that's a pseudo-culture - it's just a culture that's become more prominent in Brixton because there are now more people who want to (and yes, can afford to) eat out at a restaurant on a more than very-occasional basis.

This is not to ignore that these cultures operate somewhat separately from other pre-existing cultures in Brixton, or the disparity in spending power that exists. The disparity in wealth has certainly increased but I think it was still true of people that moved here 15+ years ago (as, effectively, an earlier wave of gentrifiers) that when they moved here, they tended to pursue lives that to a significant extent operated in a parallel world to people more long-established in the area. Their cultural lives may have exhibited a lesser degree of wealth disparity compared with existing communities than more recent arrivals have - and there may have been a bit more intersection between those parallel cultures -  but I don't really buy the idea that those lives centred around stuff that was particularly less "pseudo" than what we see now.

It's natural of course for people to think that the stuff they are into is more "real" or "authentic" than what others do, which I think is what's really behind a lot of the comments here.


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

I think that's a good post teuchter, but your last paragraph…



			
				teuchter said:
			
		

> It's natural of course for people to think that the stuff they are into is more "real" or "authentic" than what others do, which I think is what's really behind a lot of the comments here.



What's that supposed to mean really? Is it just a bit of a dig at Ed or something? Can't speak for him but I imagine working class Welsh who rocked up in London with little capital. As for me, I was born in London to a working class family, and VP I'm pretty sure too.


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## Ms T (May 12, 2016)

So inspired by this thread, and in the interests of research , I went to Kricket today for lunch. As you might expect on a lovely, warm day, Pop was pretty busy. A few people appeared to have brought their own food but mostly they were availing themselves of the various eating options.

There were only five people, including myself and my friend eating at Kricket. We had four dishes between us, and four glasses of wine  and it came to £50 including service. So the food on its own was less than £30 for two. And it was spectacularly good. Really, really delicious. The portions aren't huge, and we could have had one more dish, but I'm still full now, and thinking about how soon I can go back for the amazing bel phuri. 

I also had a chat with a couple of the staff, and it turns out they are not unaware of the controversy surrounding Pop Brixton. And they're also doing an Honest Burger/Franco Manca, and opening another branch in Soho. 

I'm also pretty sure that one of my fellow diners was a chef.


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## sealion (May 12, 2016)

editor said:


> There's lots of far cheaper places they could have gone to, so why did they come here if not for the 'lifestyle,' upmarket restaurants, groovy fucker shopping and, of course, the never ending vibrancy?


I think the transport links in Brixton are a big factor for people moving in.It's the same for areas covered by the orange line.Then of course the media/lifestyle mags pick up on it and then boom.
London homes near Tube stations cost £42,000 more
Massive price premium added to homes near overground stations


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## teuchter (May 12, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I think that's a good post teuchter, but your last paragraph…
> 
> 
> What's that supposed to mean really? Is it just a bit of a dig at Ed or something? Can't speak for him but I imagine working class Welsh who rocked up in London with little capital. As for me, I was born in London to a working class family, and VP I'm pretty sure too.


It means what it says - I think anyone criticising stuff on the basis of "authenticity" or talking about "fake" culture is on dodgy ground because who has the license to decide what's authentic? I imagine we end up in the same arguments as emerge from discussions about the idea of cultural appropriation. And I'm not using "authenticity" as a code for working class, this is not necessarily to do with class although it could be if you wanted to make that the subject of the discussion. I don't think that any strand of culture is more or less "authentic" according to its class associations. It's just culture. Culture is a complicated bunch of signs and associations and references and imitations and what have you. It is what it is.


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## leanderman (May 12, 2016)

teuchter said:


> So it's not that Brixton's gentrification has somehow raced ahead of comparable parts of the rest of london - just that it's rather suddenly caught up.



Excellent post. 

We too often assume that only Brixton has changed - but go to Lordship Lane or Northcote Rd and you see dramatic changes as well.


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> We too often assume that only Brixton has changed - but go to Lordship Lane or Northcote Rd and you see dramatic changes as well.



Indeed, I was born in SE22 and that area is unrecognisable from when I was young.


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

It _is_ about class and capital though. They're not detachable from any of it.


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## teuchter (May 12, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It _is_ about class and capital though. They're not detachable from any of it.


"It"?


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

teuchter said:


> "It"?



Gentrification, culture, etc.


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## teuchter (May 12, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Gentrification, culture, etc.


I'm not sure who you think said that class and capital could be detached from gentrification or culture or "etc".


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I'm not sure who you think said that class and capital could be detached from gentrification or culture or "etc".



That's how I read this tbh, but never mind...



			
				teuchter said:
			
		

> And I'm not using "authenticity" as a code for working class, this is not necessarily to do with class although it could be if you wanted to make that the subject of the discussion. I don't think that any strand of culture is more or less "authentic" according to its class associations. It's just culture. Culture is a complicated bunch of signs and associations and references and imitations and what have you. It is what it is.


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## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

teuchter said:


> It means what it says - I think anyone criticising stuff on the basis of "authenticity" or talking about "fake" culture is on dodgy ground because who has the license to decide what's authentic? I imagine we end up in the same arguments as emerge from discussions about the idea of cultural appropriation. And I'm not using "authenticity" as a code for working class, this is not necessarily to do with class although it could be if you wanted to make that the subject of the discussion. I don't think that any strand of culture is more or less "authentic" according to its class associations. It's just culture. Culture is a complicated bunch of signs and associations and references and imitations and what have you. It is what it is.



You appear to be mistaking pseudo-cultures - the modified and sanitised cultures that have been discussed in this forum many times - for claims that it's somehow "fake". That's very much what it isn't, given the steps taken to locate the pseudo-cultures *within* the real cultures.
As for your description of culture, you've missed the most important factors that pertain to them - that they're alive, and that they depend on those who live the culture for that life. Commodify it, and the culture dies, becomes no more than rasta wigs or giant plaid tam'o'shanters for tourists to appropriate.


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## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Excellent post.
> 
> We too often assume that only Brixton has changed - but go to Lordship Lane or Northcote Rd and you see dramatic changes as well.



As I said up-thread, those changes happened slowly enough that the displacement they caused wasn't violent. The change is only dramatic if your comparators are 20 or 30 years ago and now.
This can't be said of the dramatic changes in Brixton in the last 5-10 years.


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## teuchter (May 12, 2016)

This evening we learn that issues of class and capital are intrinsic to the processes of gentrification, and that cultures are alive and rely on people living them to be alive.

Is it international state-the-obvious day?


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## leanderman (May 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> As I said up-thread, those changes happened slowly enough that the displacement they caused wasn't violent. The change is only dramatic if your comparators are 20 or 30 years ago and now.
> This can't be said of the dramatic changes in Brixton in the last 5-10 years.



I disagree with your timelines. And I don't think Brixton is exceptional.

We only think it is because we talk about it so much (often here) and see the changes first-hand. 

Walked the Regents canal (Angel to Mile End) the other day. The scale of change all along that route was staggering. In 5-10 years.


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## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I disagree with your timelines. And I don't think Brixton is exceptional.
> 
> We only think it is because we talk about it so much (often here) and see the changes first-hand.
> 
> Walked the Regents canal (Angel to Mile End) the other day. The scale of change all along that route was staggering. In 5-10 years.



I wasn't aware that I'd claimed that Brixton was unique.
In fact we both know that I haven't. I've merely stated that Brixton is an area that has experienced hyper-gentrification over the last 5-10 years (after experiencing "standard gentrification" previously) - As is the area around the Regent's Canal.


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## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

teuchter said:


> This evening we learn that issues of class and capital are intrinsic to the processes of gentrification, and that cultures are alive and rely on people living them to be alive.
> 
> Is it international state-the-obvious day?



No, it's national "state everything in basics so that certain individuals don't selectively cite you" year.


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## alfajobrob (May 12, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I disagree with your timelines. And I don't think Brixton is exceptional.
> 
> 
> Walked the Regents canal (Angel to Mile End) the other day. The scale of change all along that route was staggering. In 5-10 years.



Vauxhall and the river towards Battersea is ridiculous now. It makes Brixton look like a playpit. I reckon a few estates are being eyed up.


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## stethoscope (May 12, 2016)

This is why I gave up on London really (although I moved out for personal reasons too), it just seemed an uphill struggle getting on the ladder on my flat in Stratford as it was. Mind you, affordability up here in this particular part of Yorkshire isn't easy either - in an area where the average salary is way way below London/South East and jobs much fewer. Yet the bulk of the new build up here seems to be 4-5 bed exec homes now, and the Victorian stuff fetches a premium. Still, my pokey flat does me.


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## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Vauxhall and the river towards Battersea is ridiculous now. It makes Brixton look like a playpit. I reckon a few estates are being eyed up.



Plenty of them are. Patmore - the Wandsworth part - and Surrey Lane are both being considered for "regeneration" by Wandsworth council, as well as quite a few small estates between Nine Elms and Queenstown Rd. I'm just surprised that Lambeth council isn't proposing any big "regenerations" around the Larkhall/Union Rd/Wandsworth Rd area...yet.


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## sealion (May 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Plenty of them are. Patmore - the Wandsworth part - and Surrey Lane are both being considered for "regeneration" by Wandsworth council, as well as quite a few small estates between and Nine Elms and Queenstown Rd. I'm just surprised that Lambeth council isn't proposing any big "regenerations" around the Larkhall/Union Rd/Wandsworth Rd area...yet.


Is it because those blocks are still sturdy and not "beyond repair" so the council can't justify the demolition of them.It seems the Rockingham estate is still going strong (same buildings as Larkhall) but the heygate and aylsebury built in the 70's are and soon to be gone.


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## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> Is it because those blocks are still sturdy and not "beyond repair" so the council can't justify the demolition of them.It seems the Rockingham estate is still going strong (same buildings as Larkhall) but the heygate and aylsebury built in the 70's are and soon to be gone.



I think that's part of it, although that hasn't stopped Guinness Trust or Peabody mashing up contemporaneous estates or parts of estates. I suppose the problem with the low-rise estates built in the 40s/50s is that most were thoroughly refurbed in the '70s and '80s in terms of wiring, plumbing etc, and as (as you mention) the fabric is still sturdy, they have no justification.
Unfortunately, as residents in Lambeth and elsewhere have discovered, that very robustness can lead local authorities to neglect basic repairs, and once they start neglecting basic repairs, it becomes progressively easier for those same local authorities to justify demolition.

Another issue with Heygate and Aylesbury, of course, is that the land the estates sat on wasn't over-developed, and meant that the developers could fit in many more units. Most red-brick Peabody/GLC type estates are denser, with less "free" green space, so at best new developers could bump the unit numbers by 10-15% without going higher, whereas even if the developers hadn't gone higher at Heygate, they could have still put in 40-45% more units.


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## Strangerdanger (May 17, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> I think the transport links in Brixton are a big factor for people moving in.It's the same for areas covered by the orange line.Then of course the media/lifestyle mags pick up on it and then boom.
> London homes near Tube stations cost £42,000 more
> Massive price premium added to homes near overground stations




From the perspective of someone who moved into the infamous Brixton Sq nearly three years ago, the thought of choosing it for its vibrancy and upscale dining is laughable. 

We happened upon a new build block of flats that offered new buy (5% deposit) and had not yet been sold off yet. We weren't necessarily looking but jumped at the chance of owning a flat somewhere close to the centre of London and right next to a tube station. We were living centrally at the time and paying quite a lot in rent, but had no deposit and was lucky to have a family member loan us half the deposit. The fact that Brixton had nightlife was a plus of course but it was definitely not a deciding factor in anyway.

I think there were many people like us then moving into Brixton and we were incredibly lucky to buy when we did because if we hadn't we would have definitely been priced out of anywhere in zone 2. Looking at property prices now is a hair raising experience, and I can definitely see how people who have been in Brixton for a long time may feel pissed off about how things are changing. But this is not a Brixton centric issue, this is happening all over the London, everyone is being pushed out. I don't think most people have the luxury of selecting an area that they want to be in and moving there, at this point in London, you take what you can get.


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## editor (May 17, 2016)

The really sad fact (for me) is that quite a few of the people moving to Brixton have little interest in the actual place, its history or culture, and they show little inclination in getting involved after they move in. It's just a convenient location with the bonus of some trendy restaurants and hipster hangouts.  Mind you that could be said of quite a few of the new businesses who have set up shop here, even if they are keen to big up their supposed _Brixton-ness_ as a marketing point.


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## Strangerdanger (May 17, 2016)

editor said:


> The really sad fact (for me) is that quite a few of the people moving to Brixton have little interest in the actual place, its history or culture, and they show little inclination in getting involved after they move in. It's just a convenient location with the bonus of some trendy restaurants and hipster hangouts.  Mind you that could be said of quite a few of the new businesses who have set up shop here, even if they are keen to big up their supposed _Brixton-ness_ as a marketing point.



I can understand this because you've have been here for so long, but the fact of the matter is none of this matters increasingly in London. Most people no longer have any links with where they are living, they just want a roof over their heads in a place that's easily commutable. A nightlife certainly helps but I really don't think average people use this as a deciding factor. 

When we moved here I was really excited to check out the markets, become a party of the community - we swiftly bought memberships to the ritzy etc. Now I spend more time at work than anywhere else, regularly eating all three meals at my desk and coming home simply to shower and sleep so when I do find myself at home on the weekend, the last thing I want to do is remove myself from the sofa. I lurk in these boards to see what's happening, but rarely comment anymore as it very much feels like old Brixton residents arguing about new incomers.

I don't have a problem with pop Brixton, I've been there a few times. Had some very good meals at Hook and a few other places and some overpriced mediocre frozen yogurt at some other place. I don't frequently visit as I'm pretty lazy on the weekends as mentioned above, but also because the place makes me feel old.


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## sealion (May 17, 2016)

Strangerdanger said:


> From the perspective of someone who moved into the infamous Brixton Sq nearly three years ago, the thought of choosing it for its vibrancy and upscale dining is laughable.
> 
> We happened upon a new build block of flats that offered new buy (5% deposit) and had not yet been sold off yet. We weren't necessarily looking but jumped at the chance of owning a flat somewhere close to the centre of London and right next to a tube station. We were living centrally at the time and paying quite a lot in rent, but had no deposit and was lucky to have a family member loan us half the deposit. The fact that Brixton had nightlife was a plus of course but it was definitely not a deciding factor in anyway.
> 
> I think there were many people like us then moving into Brixton and we were incredibly lucky to buy when we did because if we hadn't we would have definitely been priced out of anywhere in zone 2. Looking at property prices now is a hair raising experience, and I can definitely see how people who have been in Brixton for a long time may feel pissed off about how things are changing. But this is not a Brixton centric issue, this is happening all over the London, everyone is being pushed out. I don't think most people have the luxury of selecting an area that they want to be in and moving there, at this point in London, you take what you can get.



A lot of people do go for The "vibrancy and "up scale dining" blurb and all the other shit written in the estate estate agents and glossy lifestyle brochures,Well done you for ignoring all that.
Mainly people on low incomes are being pushed out because they were here long term before the social cleansing started.I cannot see how people who can,t afford to buy here(London) are being pushed out if they don't live here already.
Places such as Kennington,Oval,Peckham,New cross,Deptford and a lot of the east end were cheaper than Brixton 3 years ago.
My heart bleeds for you it must be awful.


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## Strangerdanger (May 17, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> A lot of people do go for The "vibrancy and "up scale dining" blurb and all the other shit written in the estate estate agents and glossy lifestyle brochures,Well done you for ignoring all that.
> Mainly people on low incomes are being pushed out because they were here long term before the social cleansing started.I cannot see how people who can,t afford to buy here(London) are being pushed out if they don't live here already.
> Places such as Kennington,Oval,Peckham,New cross,Deptford and a lot of the east end were cheaper than Brixton 3 years ago.
> My heart bleeds for you it must be awful.



The point of my post which you seemed to have missed is that everyone is being pushed out. I never asked for your "heart to bleed" for  me, I've acknowledged my luck and privelege, I merely pointed out a fact.


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## sealion (May 17, 2016)

Strangerdanger said:


> The point of my post which you seemed to have missed is that everyone is being pushed out. I never asked for your "heart to bleed" for  me, I've acknowledged my luck and privelege, I merely pointed out a fact.


My point is that it's not everybody being pushed out are they? People on low income,benefits and in council owned estates(now market rate rents driven by inflated house prices) are being "pushed".Not someone who can stump up cash or borrow from friends or family for a deposit.You are not losing your home because the rent has been ramped up, you just can,t afford to buy somewhere more desirable and central.


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## Strangerdanger (May 17, 2016)

We would have certainly been pushed out of where we were living which is why I mentioned that we were lucky to buy when we did. Rental prices in Brixton are now similar to what we were paying back then in our tiny central flat. 

I know loads of people moving further out - both homeowners and renters and I also know many people moving away completely. I have been in London for ten years and am originally from the Caribbean. Most of my friends from home have now moved back as the cost/standard of living is no longer worth it to them. Same with some of my English friend moving back up north and my Scandinavian friends. Cost of living in Sweden, Norway, etc is very high but what you get in return makes it worth it. 

I never asked anyone for a pity party, obviously people on lower incomes with nothing to fall back will find it harder than others. I'm merely pointing out that London is very much shifting and whats happening in Brixton is a knock on effect, not the core of it.


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## SpamMisery (May 17, 2016)

Also likely Strangerdanger and many others now find that if they need a bigger place (expanding family etc), the only option is to buy out of London because the value of the place they currently own has gone up so much it would not be affordable to them if they were looking to buy today. That is being pushed out; to me anyway.


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## teuchter (May 17, 2016)

10 or 15 years ago, a lot of people who would have been living for a while in Brixton, renting in shared houses etc, would have a reasonable chance of buying here and thereby staying in the area they had made home, perhaps even able to find housing that would allow them to bring up a family. They would have been priveleged, even back then, relative to many of course, but now those same people can't afford to buy here so are moving further out or out of London. These are people with relatively good incomes. I think it is fair to say they too are being "pushed out". It's not exclusively those at the lowest end of the income spectrum who are finding they simply can't continue to live in an area they feel connected to. That's not to ignore that the hardship will be likely be felt more strongly the closer to the bottom you are.


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## Strangerdanger (May 17, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Also likely Strangerdanger and many others now find that if they need a bigger place (expanding family etc), the only option is to buy out of London because the value of the place they currently own has gone up so much it would not be affordable to them if they were looking to buy today. That is being pushed out; to me anyway.



Exactly this. My husband and I are always staggered to think that we actually couldn't afford to buy our place right now. It's terrifying because it just cannot be sustainable what is happening.


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## Lucy Fur (May 17, 2016)

Cllr Peter John (Southwark) makes clear who his priorities are:
"I think the real conundrum is how you help people earning good money – £60-£80,000 a year – but who have absolutely no hope of buying ... It's a London-wide problem and we do need London-wide solutions."

(cartoon separate from source of quote)


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 17, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Cllr Peter John (Southwark) makes clear who his priorities are:
> "I think the real conundrum is how you help people earning good money – £60-£80,000 a year – but who have absolutely no hope of buying ... It's a London-wide problem and we do need London-wide solutions."



Fucking hell. A) What a cunt and B) that's total bollocks anyway - even in London someone making £80k per year can buy somewhere.


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## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Also likely Strangerdanger and many others now find that if they need a bigger place (expanding family etc), the only option is to buy out of London because the value of the place they currently own has gone up so much it would not be affordable to them if they were looking to buy today. That is being pushed out; to me anyway.



That's living and dying by the market, for home-owners. There's an element of choice there that doesn't exist for those in social housing, who are being pushed out of their own communities.


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## editor (May 17, 2016)

Strangerdanger said:


> I don't have a problem with pop Brixton, I've been there a few times.


Of course, you don't. You didn't move to Brixton to get involved with community issues, so I see no reason why you should care about anything other than your own immediate needs. That's not a criticism, btw, just a statement of fact because that's what Brixton is turning into, despite its unique past. How many of the new faces in Brixton have supported the Cressingham residents? How many backed those residents in Carlton Mansions being thrown out after 25 years? Or the Arch traders?

Not their problem, you see. But they've got a nice 'affordable' home in a 'cool' area with great restaurants. I don't blame them either: that's just how things are across London these days. And it's as depressing as fuck.


----------



## SpamMisery (May 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's living and dying by the market, for home-owners. There's an element of choice there that doesn't exist for those in social housing, who are being pushed out of their own communities.



Absolutely. It's an unfair advantage and not easy to move from one financial situation to the next. But its not their fault. I think that people who fit into the category I described find it a bit aggravating to be called "nu-Brixtonites" who wontedly refuse to engage with the existing culture of the area; or get told they don't understand the plight of people on low incomes because they are lucky enough to be able to borrow money for a deposit; or that all they ever do is spend obscene amounts of money on cocktails whilst being in the most deprived ward in London. It's silly. It's a caricature.


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2016)

Strangerdanger please don't pay too much attention to those who seem to wish to establish some kind of moral superiority by insulting you with implications that _unlike them_ you don't care about "anything other than your immediate needs" and don't let it put you off engaging on the forums here or getting involved with anything else locally.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Absolutely. It's an unfair advantage and not easy to move from one financial situation to the next. But its not their fault. I think that people who fit into the category I described find it a bit aggravating to be called "nu-Brixtonites"...



What *you* think on the subject is only important if you're one of the "nu-Brixtonites", otherwise you're merely projecting your own preconceptions onto them.



> ...who wontedly refuse to engage with the existing culture of the area; or get told they don't understand the plight of people on low incomes because they are lucky enough to be able to borrow money for a deposit; or that all they ever do is spend obscene amounts of money on cocktails whilst being in the most deprived ward in London. It's silly. It's a caricature.



Of course it's a caricature! 

However, like all caricatures, it has a foundation in reality. Incomers have no reason to "understand the plight of people on low incomes", especially if it makes them feel even mild existential discomfort. Even if they *do* understand and empathise, most will still look to their own security over that of poorer locals.

And sure, in some cases - as with Strangerdanger - people are "lucky" in getting together a deposit and getting a mortgage, but that's *some*, not all. We've already seen just how keenly the developments in Brixton have been targeted at investors rather than home-owners, especially over the last 5 years or so. Lexadon is about the only developer locally that doesn't focus on that model, but rather on straightforward rental income to the developer.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Lexadon is about the only developer locally that doesn't focus on that model, but rather on straightforward rental income to the developer.


And their record on providing (guffaw) 'affordable' rentals is hardly likely to put them forward for any philanthropy awards.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2016)

editor said:


> Of course, you don't. You didn't move to Brixton to get involved with community issues, so I see no reason why you should care about anything other than your own immediate needs. That's not a criticism, btw, just a statement of fact because that's what Brixton is turning into, despite its unique past. How many of the new faces in Brixton have supported the Cressingham residents? How many backed those residents in Carlton Mansions being thrown out after 25 years? Or the Arch traders?
> 
> Not their problem, you see. But they've got a nice 'affordable' home in a 'cool' area with great restaurants. I don't blame them either: that's just how things are across London these days. And it's as depressing as fuck.



As recent history shows us though, "cool" areas soon enough become blandified - it's inescapable when big retail follows the establishment of the new "cool" area, and turns it gradually into a clone of every other high street - and the pack move on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2016)

editor said:


> And their record on providing (guffaw) 'affordable' rentals is hardly likely to put them forward for any philanthropy awards.



Well quite. "Affordable" rent in London has been a moveable feast for the last 8 years, since the previous Mayor decided that "affordable" equated to 75-80% of market rate.


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## gdubz (May 17, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Strangerdanger please don't pay too much attention to those who seem to wish to establish some kind of moral superiority by insulting you with implications that _unlike them_ you don't care about "anything other than your immediate needs" and don't let it put you off engaging on the forums here or getting involved with anything else locally.


What is inappropriate about that content?


----------



## editor (May 17, 2016)

gdubz said:


> What is inappropriate about that content?


This. Take any further questions to the feedback forum please.


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## gdubz (May 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> What *you* think on the subject





editor said:


> This. Take any further questions to the feedback forum please.


ah ok - cross thread beef - I don't follow that one so apologies


----------



## editor (May 17, 2016)

gdubz said:


> ah ok - cross thread beef - I don't follow that one so apologies


It has nothing to do with Violent Panda. My words were quoted, hence the warning.


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## leanderman (May 17, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Also likely Strangerdanger and many others now find that if they need a bigger place (expanding family etc), the only option is to buy out of London because the value of the place they currently own has gone up so much it would not be affordable to them if they were looking to buy today. That is being pushed out; to me anyway.



Leander road is split three roughly equal ways.

The social tenants category is extremely stable, with hardly any turnover.

Private tenants ship in and out pretty quickly, usually within two years and often when their rents are hiked.

The third group, of owners, is fairly settled. Those who move on are usually young parents.


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## gdubz (May 17, 2016)

editor said:


> It has nothing to do with Violent Panda. My words were quoted, hence the warning.


I didn't mean to quote vp - I struggle with technology generally and type with 2 fingers. Can apologise to him if necessary.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Leander road is split three roughly equal ways.
> 
> The social tenants category is extremely stable, with hardly any turnover.
> 
> ...



IIRC you've got quite a few Housing Association properties on Leander (and on neighbouring roads, I believe), so you may find that stability going out of the window with HA tenants being granted their own version of Right to Buy. This is not necessarily to say it *will* happen, but I fully expect the parasitic wasps - property companies offering tenants a so-called "sweet deal" for a rent-free number of years - to swarm once the infrastructure for HA RtB is up and running - as happened from the '80s-onward with local authority RtB.


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## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2016)

gdubz said:


> I didn't mean to quote vp - I struggle with technology generally and type with 2 fingers. Can apologise to him if necessary.



No problem.


----------



## leanderman (May 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> IIRC you've got quite a few Housing Association properties on Leander (and on neighbouring roads, I believe), so you may find that stability going out of the window with HA tenants being granted their own version of Right to Buy. This is not necessarily to say it *will* happen, but I fully expect the parasitic wasps - property companies offering tenants a so-called "sweet deal" for a rent-free number of years - to swarm once the infrastructure for HA RtB is up and running - as happened from the '80s-onward with local authority RtB.



Correct. Various HAs and some form of Lambeth.

One HA tenant told me he'd voted Tory because of this (lunatic) policy.

I wonder whether absurd prices will make RtB more difficult than before.


----------



## teuchter (May 17, 2016)

gdubz said:


> ah ok - cross thread beef - I don't follow that one so apologies


It's not really cross thread beef, simply that some of us aren't allowed to dare criticise or respond to anything a certain poster says, under the premise that doing so amounts to disruptive behaviour (it only works one way though - fancy that!) If you want to find out more you can ask in the feedback forum where the mods will ignore your query and then close the thread to prevent further discussion. This process generally takes between about 12 and 24 hours, I find.

I'm happy to get a warning in this instance because I think that deploying snide, insulting and judgemental remarks against new posters who are not looking for a fight and who appear to be being honest about their situation is something that damages these boards.


----------



## editor (May 17, 2016)

gdubz said:


> I didn't mean to quote vp - I struggle with technology generally and type with 2 fingers. Can apologise to him if necessary.


That's OK - no problem!


----------



## gdubz (May 17, 2016)

teuchter said:


> It's not really cross thread beef, simply that some of us aren't allowed to dare criticise or respond to anything a certain poster says, under the premise that doing so amounts to disruptive behaviour (it only works one way though - fancy that!) If you want to find out more you can ask in the feedback forum where the mods will ignore your query and then close the thread to prevent further discussion. This process generally takes between about 12 and 24 hours, I find.
> 
> I'm happy to get a warning in this instance because I think that deploying snide, insulting and judgemental remarks against new posters who are not looking for a fight and who appear to be being honest about their situation is something that damages these boards.


Sorry - I should have used some quotation marks in my post - your post seemed reasonable but not sure why you were warned on one thread and it came through to another thread.


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## gdubz (May 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No problem.


Sorry vp


----------



## SpamMisery (May 17, 2016)

gdubz said:


> Sorry - I should have used some quotation marks in my post - your post seemed reasonable but not sure why you were warned on one thread and it came through to another thread.



I wouldn't try and question it if I were you; that way madness lies


----------



## editor (May 17, 2016)

Here's a swishy video from a Pop Brixton trader.



Meanwhile, the Standard is all excited about Pop's £45 a head 'feast'

Pop Feast: Join a street food banquet in Brixton


----------



## BigMoaner (May 18, 2016)

agree with what VP says about Cool. Is Brixton "edgy" and "cool" anymore? 

Or is it seen as more a Clapham type area?  

From what i can tell, i'd say the later. 

the hipsters and "young creatives" will soon turn their nose up, and move on. but by then the damage will have been done. then it probably would have morphed into Clapham, or Clapham lite at best. maybe it already is.


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## twistedAM (May 18, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's a swishy video from a Pop Brixton trader.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is there anywhere in Brixton that does tamales? At streetfood prices?


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## editor (May 18, 2016)

Entrepreneurs! Get down to this community business incubator event!

Start Up Brixton, a “community business incubator” for budding entrepreneurs will be at Pop Brixton, 28th May


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## editor (May 18, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Is there anywhere in Brixton that does tamales? At streetfood prices?


'Street food' is a term that has been so abused as to become meaningless.


----------



## trabuquera (May 18, 2016)

twistedAM yes there are at least 2 places - the Colombian butcher (I think it's called Las Americas) on Popes Road, and a couple of the concessions in the bizarrely astroturfed 'world food court' behind Wahaca (the former Brady's), where there are at least 3 small kiosks selling Colombian / Peruvian food. BUT all of these 3 places are takeaway only, very very small and their opening hours and stock availability are erratic.

If you can cope with empanadas instead of tamales then the choice is wider and you could even go and sit down and eat them, inside or out, with delicious salsa, at El Rancho de Lalo,


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## editor (May 18, 2016)

trabuquera said:


> ... and a couple of the concessions in the bizarrely astroturfed 'world food court' behind Brady's....


There is a central (covered) eating area there though, and it does seem to be opening up a bit more regularly now.







Brixton Food Court in Atlantic Road takes shape


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## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Correct. Various HAs and some form of Lambeth.
> 
> One HA tenant told me he'd voted Tory because of this (lunatic) policy.
> 
> I wonder whether absurd prices will make RtB more difficult than before.



I'm certain that current prices will put a brake on *genuine* RtB from most people, given that the maximum discount is nowhere near what it used to be. I'm not sure it'll stop speculators trying to penetrate this new source in the same way they did LA RtB, though.


----------



## T & P (May 18, 2016)

editor said:


> Entrepreneurs! Get down to this community business incubator event!
> 
> Start Up Brixton, a “community business incubator” for budding entrepreneurs will be at Pop Brixton, 28th May



Seems a useful tool for anyone thinking of starting a business, or propping up their existing one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> agree with what VP says about Cool. Is Brixton "edgy" and "cool" anymore?
> 
> Or is it seen as more a Clapham type area?
> 
> ...



I was chatting with a chap who got moved onto my estate after Rectory Grove in Clapham Old Town was evicted/cleared by Lambeth a couple of years ago. He *loves* living in Brixton because it doesn't have the "party town"/vomit-fest/braying hooray gala feel that Clapham has developed over the past 10-15 years, although he does say "it hasn't, *yet*".


----------



## editor (May 18, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I was chatting with a chap who got moved onto my estate after Rectory Grove in Clapham Old Town was evicted/cleared by Lambeth a couple of years ago. He *loves* living in Brixton because it doesn't have the "party town"/vomit-fest/braying hooray gala feel that Clapham has developed over the past 10-15 years, although he does say "it hasn't, *yet*".


Oh, I don't know. There's plenty of bellowing buffoons stumbling about and pools of vomit to step over around Coldharbour Lane in the early hours.


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## teuchter (May 18, 2016)

Advertising for some nights in Brixton actually encourages people to drink until they fall over


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## CH1 (May 18, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm certain that current prices will put a brake on *genuine* RtB from most people, given that the maximum discount is nowhere near what it used to be. I'm not sure it'll stop speculators trying to penetrate this new source in the same way they did LA RtB, though.


Presumably they still have that scam whereby property companies lend a tenant the purchase price and make them sign an agreement to hand over the property as soon as the legal sale embargo period has expired?


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## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Presumably they still have that scam whereby property companies lend a tenant the purchase price and make them sign an agreement to hand over the property as soon as the legal sale embargo period has expired?



Pretty much, or promise them _X_ number of rent-free years on top.


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## twistedAM (May 18, 2016)

trabuquera said:


> twistedAM yes there are at least 2 places - the Colombian butcher (I think it's called Las Americas) on Popes Road, and a couple of the concessions in the bizarrely astroturfed 'world food court' behind Brady's, where there are at least 3 small kiosks selling Colombian / Peruvian food. BUT all of these 3 places are takeaway only, very very small and their opening hours and stock availability are erratic.
> 
> If you can cope with empanadas instead of tamales then the choice is wider and you could even go and sit down and eat them, inside or out, with delicious salsa, at El Rancho de Lalo,



Takeaway is perfect, thank you. 
Have had several very so-so empanadas in London but will try El Rancho de Lalo's - I take it theirs are homemade?


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## twistedAM (May 18, 2016)

editor said:


> 'Street food' is a term that has been so abused as to become meaningless.


An imported American/Californian term that does  not equate to a country whose traditional streetfood is a sloppy kebab at midnight.


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## editor (May 18, 2016)

Not sure if it's been posted before but this analysis of pop ups is right on the money. Pop Brixton are mentioned. 


> Ephemeral and opportunistic, pop-ups at first seem to draw on the same lineage as free parties or squat raves, repurposing unwanted spaces to create something daring, disruptive and unburdened by red tape. The reality is often a bit different: as outlined in this excellent article by Dan Hancox, pop-ups are just as likely to be a vector for larger corporations to make use of cheap rents and some vaguely rebellious branding.
> 
> Even when that’s not the case, many pop-ups are still a poor replacement for spaces which more naturally emerge from or respond to a specific community’s needs. Their finite lifespan demands a quick and direct route to profitability, which perhaps explains why so many of them veer towards universal feel-good fodder: an ocean of barbeques, cupcakes, and cocktails, pop culture references, and cheerfully bland infantilisation of a ball pit for ‘adults’.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (May 18, 2016)

And here's a piece exposing the shameful cash-raking practices of Pop Brixton pals'n'partners, The Collective: 



> There are many things about all this that are anger-making, but the first that leaps out at you is the price. The rooms are going for the low, low price of £1,083 a month, or almost exactly half of the average Londoner’s take-home pay. And for that, remember, you don’t get a house or even a flat. You get a room that’s about three metres square, which is fine if you’re a sulky teenager but not great if you’re 30; as well as a bathroom, and a two-ring kitchen hob you share with a neighbour.


Collective living’s fine for students but for everybody else it stinks | Jonn Elledge


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## trabuquera (May 18, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Takeaway is perfect, thank you.
> Have had several very so-so empanadas in London but will try El Rancho de Lalo's - I take it theirs are homemade?


 
I think they're homemade but I couldn't be sure tbh (the ones in the food court + the butchers are definitely homemade). And Rancho de Lalo's salsa is certainly made on site and to me is what makes the meal* really. Otherwise it's just a pasty that speaks Spanish, innit? You'd be better off with a hot patty from somewhere.

(* well, that sauce and the amazingly reasonable £1.50 per empanada)


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## twistedAM (May 18, 2016)

trabuquera said:


> I think they're homemade but I couldn't be sure tbh (the ones in the food court + the butchers are definitely homemade). And Rancho de Lalo's salsa is certainly made on site and to me is what makes the meal* really. Otherwise it's just a pasty that speaks Spanish, innit? You'd be better off with a hot patty from somewhere.
> 
> (* well, that sauce and the amazingly reasonable £1.50 per empanada)



I like fried empanadas not the baked ones, so agree with you on the patty comparison.


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## trabuquera (May 18, 2016)

Lalo's ones are definitely fried. In a lovely nubbly sandy cornmeal crust. (I'm drooling like a Pavlov's dog now, need an empanada ... thanks for nothing twistedAM )


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## sealion (May 18, 2016)

editor said:


> Not sure if it's been posted before but this analysis of pop ups is right on the money. Pop Brixton are mentioned.


Good article that by Dan Hancox. He is bang on.

"Edgy, street, funky, quirky – that's not only a full house in arsehole bingo, it also neatly explains how the pop-up serves the needs of late capitalism: it's a lunge to inject coolness and spontaneity into consumerism, in an age when we are finally starting to realise we don't need so much of this junk – and anyway, we really can't afford it".


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## Harbourite (May 18, 2016)

editor said:


> In the interests of science and good reporting, I popped into Pop today and this is what I saw. Not a single tourist/customer to be found anywhere, while outside Station Road was positively bustling with shoppers, coffee drinkers, traders, people chatting etc etc.
> 
> The place really does seem to exist outside of the community its located within.
> 
> ...



Having vowed never to set foot inside, I've done so twice in the last 10 days (the shame, the shame). 

First time for the Calais fundraiser which was excellent. The ramen place was nice and friendly 

Second time to go to Kricket - food and staff excellent. Fellow diners would not be, like, totally out of place on "Made in Chelsea"? 

Have been and won't go again. Completely soulless and contrived. It could be anywhere. Zero connection with what's around. Shame. 

Plus a load of the plank flooring had been taken up for what smelt like a nasty sewerage problem . Like, totes yuck?


----------



## editor (May 20, 2016)

Q. Does this scene in Pop Brixton look even slightly representative of the long standing community directly outside?
A. No

Community project, my fucking arse.


----------



## T & P (May 20, 2016)

Well, if one is supposed to pass judgement on an entire site consisting of many units, different areas and host to multiple events and activities of different kinds throughout the year based on this single photograph, I guess the answer would be no.

Then again if someone posted a photograph showing, say, a free screening, a charity event, a free family & children activity day, or someone handing out free fruits and vegetables to anyone who wanted them, and said 'this is what Pop Brixton is about', anyone not familiar with the place might think Pop is the greatest asset any community could hope for. 

That's why trying to capture the essence of a place like this with a single image is as impossible as is misleading.


----------



## editor (May 20, 2016)

T & P said:


> Well, if one is supposed to pass judgement on an entire site consisting of many units, different areas and host to multiple events and activities of different kinds throughout the year based on this single photograph, I guess the answer would be no.
> 
> Then again if someone posted a photograph showing, say, a free screening, a charity event, a free family & children activity day, or someone handing out free fruits and vegetables to anyone who wanted them, and said 'this is what Pop Brixton is about', anyone not familiar with the place might think Pop is the greatest asset any community could hope for.
> 
> That's why trying to capture the essence of a place like this with a single image is as impossible as is misleading.


I pass by Pop many, many times every week and I'd say this is very much a fair representation of what you might expect to find most days.

Obviously it may look different if there's a special one off, one-afternoon event taking place, but this is pretty much what I usually see (if it's not empty, of course).  I don't post up these images to gloat or to prove points, btw. I do it because I'm angry at the way I feel that the community - as in the people that actually live and work next to Pop - were sold one thing and given something entirely different.

I'd argue that for the greater part, it does very little to live up to its promise as a 'community project' and very much targets the kind of monocultural drinkers seen in the photo above.

But if you want to seriously argue that Pop Brixton normally echoes the rich and diverse mix of people from all backgrounds seen directly outside and around their security guard manned entrance, let's hear it.


----------



## gdubz (May 20, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's a swishy video from a Pop Brixton trader.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice couple - I think he's from Poland; she's from Mexico. Food is excellent, they are working hard, they live (or at least did) in SW9 and went from a pitch in station road to pop. Love's young dream and in anywhere other than these boards it would be a positive story.


----------



## CH1 (May 20, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's a swishy video from a Pop Brixton trader.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I normally avoid this thread to encourage my blood pressure downwards.
But since I looked at the Standard article there I thought "This is a bit like the Saltoun Supper Club" - if you recall when they came down to the Angell (where Mama Dough now is) and how inappropriate many of us thought this Bullingdon-style behaviour.

Just to remind people Gramsci found a Facebook page at the time. This Saltoun Supper/Brickbox Ladies event had a tone which set some people's teeth on edge - a chimney sweep with blackened face for example  A Curative Tonic | Facebook

As for the couple running a business in Pop, commented on by gdubz the positive is indeed being drowned out by the context. If I might make a medical analogy it is like Lambeth Council are giving Brixton a Heart Transplant - but large parts of the host body never wanted it and there is rejection.

Lambeth Council really are annoying - they spend a lot of time and energy promoting trendy businesses - but they completely took their eye off the ball on their flagship social housing project in Somerleyton Road.

The Regeneration Officer in charge of Pop, who seems to work out of the Pop offices in Station Road (but not in a Pop container) - surely could have devoted some of his time to keeping Somerleyton Road on track instead of allowing a creeping privatisation?


----------



## leanderman (May 21, 2016)

editor said:


> Q. Does this scene in Pop Brixton look even slightly representative of the long standing community directly outside?
> A. No
> 
> Community project, my fucking arse.
> ...



Reminds me of the photo of that Reclaim Brixton meeting:


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## editor (May 21, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Reminds me of the photo of that Reclaim Brixton meeting:


Why don't you post up some photos from the actual Reclaim Brixton event and explain your point?


----------



## editor (May 21, 2016)

editor said:


> Why don't you post up some photos from the actual Reclaim Brixton event and explain your point?


I'm struggling to see any meaningful comparisons between a Lambeth-sponsored, estate agent backed "community project/green oasis/21st century business park" and a protest against gentrification over a year ago. Perhaps you might enlighten me as to what point it is you're trying to stretch here.

And getting back on to the subject: do you think the crowd that is usually found at Pop Brixton meaningfully reflects and engages with the community it's located within?

But seeing as you asked (and I'm always happy to watch this):


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 21, 2016)

editor said:


> Q. Does this scene in Pop Brixton look even slightly representative of the long standing community directly outside?
> A. No
> 
> Community project, my fucking arse.
> ...



Of course it doesn't, but that won't stop some of the usual suspects defending it,while also having a pop at you.


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## elmpp (May 21, 2016)

yawn


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## Rushy (May 22, 2016)

CH1 said:


> If I might make a medical analogy it is like Lambeth Council are giving Brixton a Heart Transplant - but large parts of the host body never wanted it and there is rejection.


In your medical analogy, would you refuse the heart transplant because there is likely to be some rejection?


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## SpamMisery (May 22, 2016)

Tried the naanwich at Bhangra burger (baba g's) and the dumplings at Koi Ramen. Both really good. Also accidentally ordered the tofu burger at Bhangra which was lovely (except for the fact it was tofu).

I can also independently verify that you can indeed spend £5 on a pint... in a plastic cup... without a table or chairs... or cutlery.


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## CH1 (May 23, 2016)

Rushy said:


> In your medical analogy, would you refuse the heart transplant because there is likely to be some rejection?


The heart I would choose would be Cilla Black's


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## friendofdorothy (May 23, 2016)

Sorry haven't been following the thread so apologies if this has been asked.

Anyone go along to /have experience of /heard much about the free exercise stuff - yoga, tai chi etc that happens at pop?
Feel free to point me to other free or cheap exercise classes in Brixton.


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## brixtonblade (May 23, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry haven't been following the thread so apologies if this has been asked.
> 
> Anyone go along to /have experience of /heard much about the free exercise stuff - yoga, tai chi etc that happens at pop?
> Feel free to point me to other free or cheap exercise classes in Brixton.





friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry haven't been following the thread so apologies if this has been asked.
> 
> Anyone go along to /have experience of /heard much about the free exercise stuff - yoga, tai chi etc that happens at pop?
> Feel free to point me to other free or cheap exercise classes in Brixton.


I didn't know they did any free classes at pop.

I've heard a few people recommend the tai chi at the windmill.

Parkrun is good.


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## SpamMisery (May 23, 2016)

It's free unless you want to hire a mat (for which the hateful capitalists will sting you for 80p)


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## aka (May 23, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry haven't been following the thread so apologies if this has been asked.
> 
> Anyone go along to /have experience of /heard much about the free exercise stuff - yoga, tai chi etc that happens at pop?
> Feel free to point me to other free or cheap exercise classes in Brixton.



Yoga

not sure if it is still £3 a sesh - always phone ahead, not much room in there


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## sparkybird (May 23, 2016)

friendofdorothy
The tai chi is at Brixton windmill windmill, rather than the pub!
I don't go, but I know people who do and like it.
Blog - brixton windmill

I think the plan is to carry on fundraising so it can continue


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## aka (May 23, 2016)

sparkybird said:


> friendofdorothy
> The tai chi is at Brixton windmill windmill, rather than the pub!
> I don't go, but I know people who do and like it.
> Blog - brixton windmill
> ...


probably take this to a new thread?


----------



## aka (May 23, 2016)

ici

Brixton Exercise

maybe


----------



## CH1 (May 24, 2016)

The CEO of Cloudy Bay wines was on BBC Business Live just now.
I see the New Zealand wine shop in Pop Brixton stocks one of his.

Can anyone tell us what it was like?


----------



## Dan U (May 24, 2016)

CH1 said:


> The CEO of Cloudy Bay wines was on BBC Business Live just now.
> I see the New Zealand wine shop in Pop Brixton stocks one of his.
> 
> Can anyone tell us what it was like?



That, Dogpoint and Greywacke are three of the more popular Sav Blancs from NZ.

I personally really like all of them for a nice summer afternoon/evening glass of wine - although not every week as they aren't the cheapest.

Cloudy Bay is usually the most expensive, although a quick look at the prices on the Pop shop and they are all a couple of quid a bottle more than my local independent wine shop. You can get Dogpoint for around £13, Greywacke tends to be between the two somewhere (although not the one that shop sells, that is more expensive)

I went to a BBQ in Melbourne a few weeks back and took a bottle of Cloudy Bay - even with an ok exchange rate the price was very similar to the UK.


----------



## Winot (May 24, 2016)

CH1 said:


> The CEO of Cloudy Bay wines was on BBC Business Live just now.
> I see the New Zealand wine shop in Pop Brixton stocks one of his.
> 
> Can anyone tell us what it was like?



Cloudy Bay was *the* most famous NZ Sauvignon Blanc when it was at the top of its trend in London. This was the late 90s/early 00s. As a result it was always a bit overpriced. Pretty good though, if you like that style of wine.


----------



## Winot (May 24, 2016)

In fact I seem to remember that a reviewer proposed a 'Cloudy Bay Index' as a method of establishing mark-up on restaurant wine lists.


----------



## CH1 (May 24, 2016)

Winot said:


> In fact I seem to remember that a reviewer proposed a 'Cloudy Bay Index' as a method of establishing mark-up on restaurant wine lists.


You've lost me there. I'm more concerned with Wetherspoons selling off the Capitol in Forest Hill.

I thought Ian Morden estate manager of Cloudy Bay was very down to earth and interviewed well. He is on some sort of promotional visit to the Chelsea Flower Show, though this was only mentioned in passing. He was very graphic on the topography of the company's vineyard in New Zealand when the TV presenters started asking him about expansion for some reason (not possible he said).

Sorry to see in a way that Cloudy Bay sold out to LMVH, but then Body Shop sold out to L'Oréal. I guess from the customer's point of view there may be no difference and maybe the Cloudy Bay people feel they can sleep better at night [an end to all those pesky business worries!].


----------



## editor (May 30, 2016)

The ever community minded Pop Brixton is inviting you to help celebrate their first birthday! That'll be just *£45* for the 'tasting menu', thanks. 







1 YEAR HERE: Pop Feast Birthday Supperclub Pop Brixton London | DesignMyNight


----------



## Gramsci (May 30, 2016)

editor said:


> The ever community minded Pop Brixton is inviting you to help celebrate their first birthday! That'll be just *£45* for the 'tasting menu', thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got an email about this. Its so shit.


----------



## editor (May 30, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I got an email about this. Its so shit.


That picture kind of sums it up.


----------



## Gramsci (May 30, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry haven't been following the thread so apologies if this has been asked.
> 
> Anyone go along to /have experience of /heard much about the free exercise stuff - yoga, tai chi etc that happens at pop?
> Feel free to point me to other free or cheap exercise classes in Brixton.



Brixton Rec is cheap for yoga. But its not easy to get a class as they are popular.


----------



## Gramsci (May 30, 2016)

editor said:


> That picture kinds of sums it up.



I know. I have emailed "Sarah" at Pop asking where they got my email address from. Been getting regular emails from them and had enough of it now got one for a £45 event. 

I guess they got my email from Future Brixton as I’m on there email list. If so my email shouldn’t been handed on to what is commercial outlet.


----------



## editor (May 30, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I know. I have emailed "Sarah" at Pop asking where they got my email address from. Been getting regular emails from them and had enough of it now got one for a £45 event.
> 
> I guess they got my email from Future Brixton as I’m on there email list. If so my email shouldn’t been handed on to what is commercial outlet.


The fact that they're using that particular photo to advertise the event speaks volume of the kind of people they're looking to target.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 30, 2016)

editor said:


> The fact that they're using that particular photo to advertise the event speaks volume of the kind of people they're looking to target.



At the risk of setting off this forum's resident carpers, it's a bit mono-culture, isn't it? Loads of white people, and little else.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 30, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Brixton Rec is cheap for yoga. But its not easy to get a class as they are popular.


 Haven't been to the rec in a long time - I'm not that fit and I'm easily put off. I was trying to find out abot their stuff on line - utterly confused. I may be getting this wrong but don't you have to join then pay monthly fee  =

Initial Cost £76.83
Ongoing Cost  £29.95

which I'd rather not spend on an activity I already find a bit intimidating. 
I'll try the pop free yoga again.


----------



## Gramsci (May 30, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Haven't been to the rec in a long time - I'm not that fit and I'm easily put off. I was trying to find out abot their stuff on line - utterly confused. I may be getting this wrong but don't you have to join then pay monthly fee  =
> 
> Initial Cost £76.83
> Ongoing Cost  £29.95
> ...



My friend does it on payg and its cheaper with a membership card.

But take your point. The GLL website is confusing. A lot of the prices are comparable to private gyms which put it out of range of a lot of people.


----------



## brixtonblade (May 30, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Haven't been to the rec in a long time - I'm not that fit and I'm easily put off. I was trying to find out abot their stuff on line - utterly confused. I may be getting this wrong but don't you have to join then pay monthly fee  =
> 
> Initial Cost £76.83
> Ongoing Cost  £29.95
> ...


Their website is a pain 

I think you should be able to do classes pay-as-you-go.  Try calling reception.


----------



## Ms T (May 31, 2016)

You can do payg at the Lido.


----------



## Winot (May 31, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Haven't been to the rec in a long time - I'm not that fit and I'm easily put off. I was trying to find out abot their stuff on line - utterly confused. I may be getting this wrong but don't you have to join then pay monthly fee  =
> 
> Initial Cost £76.83
> Ongoing Cost  £29.95
> ...



Yes the GLL website is Byzantine, and as Gramsci says the Rec is very busy so getting a free slot is difficult. However it's worth checking for free places a few hours before the class starts for reasons I'll explain below. 

I suspect the Rec won't work for you FoD but I'll put this here as it might help others. Have you looked at YogaPoint btw? It is pretty gentle and has drop in classes for a tenner I believe. 

Back to the Rec - I don't do yoga there but swim and use the gym (occasionally) and go to spin class. 

AFAIK PAYG is available for most classes. If you go often then paying for membership becomes the cheaper option. 

With spin classes it works like this: 

- you can book classes from 10pm seven days before the class
- so for my Fri spin class I can book from 10pm the Fri before
- in practice all 15 places are booked by the next morning
- they can be cancelled and you can get your morning back (or not be charged) up to about 5 hours before the class starts
- so at about 1pm on the day a whole load of tickets get released as people who've reserved them realise they'd rather go to the pub than the gym

It's frustrating but I can't see a better way of arranging it - it's an inevitable consequence of too much demand.


----------



## newbie (May 31, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Haven't been to the rec in a long time - I'm not that fit and I'm easily put off. I was trying to find out abot their stuff on line - utterly confused. I may be getting this wrong but don't you have to join then pay monthly fee  =
> 
> Initial Cost £76.83
> Ongoing Cost  £29.95
> ...


How on earth does anyone afford that?  I haven't been to the rec for years but I don't recall the cost being significant the last time I went for a swim and a sauna. Now it appears to be completely exclusionary.


----------



## Winot (May 31, 2016)

newbie said:


> How on earth does anyone afford that?  I haven't been to the rec for years but I don't recall the cost being significant the last time I went for a swim and a sauna. Now it appears to be completely exclusionary.



Those are membership prices. 

Kids swim is £1.90. A lot cheaper than elsewhere.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 31, 2016)

Huuuuge thread. Can someone summarise how this guy's got away with it?

I got into a dispute as I walked in with my dog, without security noticing and without me realising dogs weren't allowed. Small kerfuffle, after which I got to speak to the 'owner' about it (smooth businessman with nice cologne). The no-dog rule is absurd but what I found more absurd is that from what I could understand, he's not paying any rent for the property to Lambeth and yet he's charging the people using the pods rent. How does that one work? He strode off and asked security to remove me and my dog before I could get much further. He did say the majority of the people working there are young Lambeth folk so I guess that's a good thing. Just not sure why he's not paying for his prime location. And why my completely house-trained and lovely little dog is not welcome there but screaming, shitting awful little dirty babies in their massive prams are. Is my council tax paying for this guy to make a profit?


----------



## han (May 31, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> screaming, shitting awful little dirty babies in their massive prams are. Is my council tax paying for this guy to make a profit?


[emoji15]


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 31, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> And why my completely house-trained and lovely little dog is not welcome there but screaming, shitting awful little dirty babies in their massive prams are.



Paging Dr. Freud.


----------



## Rushy (May 31, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Huuuuge thread. Can someone summarise how this guy's got away with it?
> 
> I got into a dispute as I walked in with my dog, without security noticing and without me realising dogs weren't allowed. Small kerfuffle, after which I got to speak to the 'owner' about it (smooth businessman with nice cologne). The no-dog rule is absurd but what I found more absurd is that from what I could understand, he's not paying any rent for the property to Lambeth and yet he's charging the people using the pods rent. How does that one work? He strode off and asked security to remove me and my dog before I could get much further. He did say the majority of the people working there are young Lambeth folk so I guess that's a good thing. Just not sure why he's not paying for his prime location. And why my completely house-trained and lovely little dog is not welcome there but screaming, shitting awful little dirty babies in their massive prams are. Is my council tax paying for this guy to make a profit?



The council has a 50% profit share.

Am I the only dog owner who does not get incensed when some places don't allow dogs? I've eaten out twice recently when people have actually had their dogs up on the shared benches next to me. What planet are these people on?


----------



## Dan U (May 31, 2016)

those awful, awful babies.


----------



## newbie (May 31, 2016)

Winot said:


> Those are membership prices.
> 
> Kids swim is £1.90. A lot cheaper than elsewhere.


that's fine.  

I've just looked at their website and endorse the comments above about it being impenetrable.  How much is it to just turn up for an adult swim and sauna?


----------



## Winot (May 31, 2016)

newbie said:


> that's fine.
> 
> I've just looked at their website and endorse the comments above about it being impenetrable.  How much is it to just turn up for an adult swim and sauna?



Your guess is as good as mine! I go often enough to justify a membership, so I don't pay per visit.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 31, 2016)

Winot said:


> Yes the GLL website is Byzantine, and as Gramsci says the Rec is very busy so getting a free slot is difficult. However it's worth checking for free places a few hours before the class starts for reasons I'll explain below.
> 
> 
> With spin classes it works like this:
> ...



I've been trying to arrange some squash games near work (same company different centre) and you have to be some sort of booking ninja to get the after work slots. You have to be on there at 10pm (not 10.01 - they're long gone by then) when the courts are released the week before and sometimes even then they're all gone if you time the refresh wrong. It's really annoying - like you say though what's the alternative? Whenever they're released people will be after them and there are only three courts.


----------



## brixtonblade (May 31, 2016)

They also do a yearly discount ticket. I got a family one for about £30 and it gets cheaper entry so now swimming for me and my son is £4 a time


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 31, 2016)

Thanks for other suggestions above, but as somebody said above - I don't think the rec is for me with all this fighting for a place /cost etc. I'm not that keen.

Sorry to repeat -  but has anyone tried the free curvy yoga/laughter yoga at Pop or indeed any of the other free exercise things. I'm not a yoga expert and would love to know how others rate it. 

Before anyone thinks to lecture me, please don't. No I wont be buying overpriced food and drink, though I will splash out 80p for hire of the mat.  I feel my council tax has already subsidised this place, and the yoga teachers are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, it so I may as well take advantage.


----------



## Gramsci (May 31, 2016)

newbie said:


> How on earth does anyone afford that?  I haven't been to the rec for years but I don't recall the cost being significant the last time I went for a swim and a sauna. Now it appears to be completely exclusionary.


Yes it is exclusionary. 

I have been at meetings with Cllr (Edbrooke) and officers were this has been brought up. 

They look puzzled and say there are discounts for those on benefits. 

They don't understand that a lot of people are on relatively low pay and do not get these discounts. 

The membership card to get cheaper off peak payg is also pricey. Again the Council do not see the problem. 

The Rec makes a profit. Surplus in there words.


----------



## editor (May 31, 2016)

Back to Pop Brixton, it's actually £47.70 for the birthday celebration meal.

So you'll be looking at forking out the best part of FIFTY QUID each to participate in their 'birthday supperclub.' 

Yep, that's just perfectly affordable for the local community. Well, for this lot at least.


----------



## CH1 (May 31, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks for other suggestions above, but as somebody said above - I don't think the rec is for me with all this fighting for a place /cost etc. I'm not that keen.
> 
> Sorry to repeat -  but has anyone tried the free curvy yoga/laughter yoga at Pop or indeed any of the other free exercise things. I'm not a yoga expert and would love to know how others rate it.
> 
> Before anyone thinks to lecture me, please don't. No I wont be buying overpriced food and drink, though I will splash out 80p for hire of the mat.  I feel my council tax has already subsidised this place, and the yoga teachers are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, it so I may as well take advantage.


I'm sure this is not what you want either - but there is a super trendy yoga in Coldharbour Lane now (under the ever popular Brixton Square)
Live Life with Fierce Grace Brixton


----------



## editor (May 31, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I'm sure this is not what you want either - but there is a super trendy yoga in Coldharbour Lane now (under the ever popular Brixton Square)
> Live Life with Fierce Grace Brixton


It looks horrifically trendy. Minimum £14 for a class.


----------



## twistedAM (Jun 1, 2016)

editor said:


> Back to Pop Brixton, it's actually £47.70 for the birthday celebration meal.
> 
> So you'll be looking at forking out the best part of FIFTY QUID each to participate in their 'birthday supperclub.'
> 
> Yep, that's just perfectly affordable for the local community. Well, for this lot at least.



God that looks like  a casting call for a remake of Notting Hill but this time around it will be called.....


----------



## han (Jun 1, 2016)

editor said:


> It looks horrifically trendy. Minimum £14 for a class.


Dreadful name as well.


----------



## hungry_squirrel (Jun 1, 2016)

editor said:


> Back to Pop Brixton, it's actually £47.70 for the birthday celebration meal.
> 
> So you'll be looking at forking out the best part of FIFTY QUID each to participate in their 'birthday supperclub.'
> 
> Yep, that's just perfectly affordable for the local community. Well, for this lot at least.


Not particularly nice of you to have such a clear shot of those guys who are obviously having a good time, judging them from it and inviting everyone else on the boards to do so too.


----------



## twistedAM (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Not particularly nice of you to have such a clear shot of those guys who are obviously having a good time, judging them from it and inviting everyone else on the boards to do so too.



It was lifted from Pop Brixton's own publicity for the event. Obviously it is the demographic they seek for such an event.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Not particularly nice of you to have such a clear shot of those guys who are obviously having a good time, judging them from it and inviting everyone else on the boards to do so too.


It's from the 'feast' event page and is the only photograph they have used to publicise the event. They clearly feel it's how they want to represent the event and the clientèle they hope to attract.

Do you think it's a representative crowd for a venue celebrating the 1st birthday of a Lambeth-backed 'community' project?


----------



## discobastard (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Not particularly nice of you to have such a clear shot of those guys who are obviously having a good time, judging them from it and inviting everyone else on the boards to do so too.


You're new here aren't you? [emoji4]


----------



## hungry_squirrel (Jun 1, 2016)

discobastard said:


> You're new here aren't you? [emoji4]



Actually I'm a long-time lurker, I just think that the sneering down your nose at someone is exactly the kind of thing that the editor would be pissed off that someone would do to him.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Actually I'm a long-time lurker, I just think that the sneering down your nose at someone is exactly the kind of thing that the editor would be pissed off that someone would do to him.


I get enough of that already, thanks 

But do tell: are you totally happy with Pop Brixton - you know the supposed inclusive 'community' project - holding an exclusive first birthday party and advertising it with such an image? Are you happy with the message that sends out?


----------



## hungry_squirrel (Jun 1, 2016)

editor said:


> I get enough of that already, thanks
> 
> But do tell: are you totally happy with Pop Brixton - you know the supposed inclusive 'community' project - holding an exclusive first birthday party and advertising it with such an image? Are you happy with the message that sends out?



Not especially, but as I said before, it's the singling out of those people (whether they've been used in publicity shots or not) who look happy and are having a good time that gets my goat.


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Not especially, but as I said before, it's the singling out of those people (whether they've been used in publicity shots or not) who look happy and are having a good time that gets my goat.


Except I'm not 'singling them out'. That's the sole image that Pop Brixton has singled out themselves to promote their own event.


----------



## Rushy (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Actually I'm a long-time lurker, I just think that the sneering down your nose at someone is exactly the kind of thing that the editor would be pissed off that someone would do to him.


They sound much the same but you need to learn to distinguish between sneering up and sneering down.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 1, 2016)

editor said:


> Except I'm not 'singling them out'. That's the sole image that Pop Brixton has singled out themselves to promote their own event.



looks like they swapped it out on their website....


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

*_I note that Rushy has been banned after accruing sufficient points for a temp ban to kick in. This was after he continued to break the terms of the enforced ignore. Anyone wishing to discuss this is advised to take the matter to the Feedback forum as it won't be discussed here._


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 1, 2016)

Wish it would just get banned for good...


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> looks like they swapped it out on their website....


It's still on the event page: 1 YEAR HERE: Pop Feast Birthday Supperclub Pop Brixton London | DesignMyNight


----------



## discobastard (Jun 1, 2016)

There's also a distinction to be made between sneering at Pop for choosing such a crass photo and sneering at the people who happened to be in the photo and gave (most likely) implicit permission to be used in promotional material just because they thought a decent feed and some comedy sounded like a good night out.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 1, 2016)

editor said:


> It's still on the event page: 1 YEAR HERE: Pop Feast Birthday Supperclub Pop Brixton London | DesignMyNight



Here's another pic being used on that site to promote the event.....it's not much better, but there is a little more diversity in there....

I love it that people are sat there in their outdoor coats to eat dinner....how much fun is that?


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I love it that people are sat there in their outdoor coats to eat dinner....how much fun is that?


£47.50s worth of fun for all the community!


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

discobastard said:


> There's also a distinction to be made between sneering at Pop for choosing such a crass photo and sneering at the people who happened to be in the photo and gave (most likely) implicit permission to be used in promotional material just because they thought a decent feed and some comedy sounded like a good night out.


Not really sure who's "sneering" at the people. I'm more interested in challenging Pop for charging such a fucking huge sum for the local community to celebrate what is supposed to be a "community" venture, and illustrating the event with a homogeneous photo that has zero diversity and would appear to send out a clear message about who the event is 'for.'


----------



## discobastard (Jun 1, 2016)

editor said:


> Not really sure who's "sneering" at the people. I'm more interested in challenging Pop for charging such a fucking huge sum for the local community to celebrate what is supposed to be a "community" venture, and illustrating the event with a homogeneous photo that has zero diversity and would appear to send out a clear message about who the event is 'for.'


That was pretty much my point, yes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 1, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> God that looks like  a casting call for a remake of Notting Hill but this time around it will be called.....



...Nothing Hill?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Not particularly nice of you to have such a clear shot of those guys who are obviously having a good time, judging them from it and inviting everyone else on the boards to do so too.



...and?

Are you really naive enough to believe that everybody doesn't do the same in terms of judging?

Besides, if one only takes one *fact* from the picture, it's that although the event advertised will take place in Brixton, the advertiser is implicitly communicating* who the event is for, and it's not for regular Brixtonians, some of whom happen to not be white like every bugger in that picture.

*It's called semiology, or semiotics if you're a sociology grad. Signs, what they say, and what they *mean*.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 1, 2016)

What are the terms of an enforced ignore? Its not in the faq


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 1, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...Nothing Hill?



Notting Hell


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 1, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> What are the terms of an enforced ignore? Its not in the faq



Which bit of this bypassed you?



editor said:


> Anyone wishing to discuss this is advised to take the matter to the Feedback forum as it won't be discussed here.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 1, 2016)

I was asking if someone had a link to where the terms are stated. I assumed somewhere on the help pages


----------



## leanderman (Jun 1, 2016)

The Pop Brixton picture is not unlike the home page image used by this nearby pub.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 1, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The Pop Brixton picture is not unlike the home page image used by this nearby pub.



indeed


----------



## ddraig (Jun 1, 2016)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Not particularly nice of you to have such a clear shot of those guys who are obviously having a good time, judging them from it and inviting everyone else on the boards to do so too.


which one are you in the picture?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jun 1, 2016)

eta, cant be arsed actually


----------



## editor (Jun 1, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The Pop Brixton picture is not unlike the home page image used by this nearby pub.


Except that photo doesn't show anyone in the Prince Albert pub - it's a generic Greene King shot taken somewhere else. And the pub wasn't set up by Lambeth as a supposed community venture. And they're not charging £47.50 for entry.

But apart from that, exactly the same.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 1, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The Pop Brixton picture is not unlike the home page image used by this nearby pub.



Cant see anything wrong with it myself. It'll just be how they want to represent the pub and the clientèle they hope to attract


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 1, 2016)

That design my night website is not operated by POP though is it? The pictures are from Pop, but they are not the images Pop are using to promote said event. 

I'm not sure the Albert page is any less misrepresentative, regardless of it being a generic Greene King page. 

If anything the Greene King page offends me more than the Design My Night one...


----------



## T & P (Jun 1, 2016)

I personally don't like to try to read too much into any alleged demographics or agendas behind promotional photographs. One website has used actual, non-staged images of a past meeting of the event in question, the other has used a stock image posed by models. There are bad things that could be said about both approaches if one is determined to go down that road, but there is seldom anything sinister behind them, certainly not, IMO, in the cases of Pop and The Albert here.


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> That design my night website is not operated by POP though is it? The pictures are from Pop, but they are not the images Pop are using to promote said event.


The event is run by Pop Brixton. It's being used to sell tickets for their event. It's directly linked from their own site as the only place where you can buy tickets.  Who do you think supplied the image?


Nanker Phelge said:


> If anything the Greene King page offends me more than the Design My Night one...


It's a shit generic corporate image. Not sure why it should offend you as I doubt if many people bother looking at it and the pub has absolutely nothing to do with the image. It wasn't taken in the pub and is not being put forward to promote an exclusive £50 event.


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> I personally don't like to try to read too much into any alleged demographics or agendas behind promotional photographs. One website has used actual, non-staged images of a past meeting of the event in question, the other has used a stock image posed by models. There are bad things that could be said about both approaches if one is determined to go down that road, but there is seldom anything sinister behind them, certainly not, IMO, in the cases of Pop and The Albert here.


Makes you wonder why the Albert was brought up in the first place seeing as this thread is about Pop Brixton which is an entirely different proposition to one individual commercial pub. The Albert wasn't set up by the council to be a "community project" neither does it claim to be "committed to supporting the local community" like Pop does.  There's no logical reason to bring it into this discussion....

Oh, wait. It's because I drink there, so it's being brought up as a way to discredit my argument and disrupt the discussion, despite the two places being entirely different propositions with just about nothing in common.

Sigh. It's all getting so fucking predictable and pathetic these days, but at least it's evidence of the sheer desperation of the counter-arguments. How about addressing the issue of a self styled community project in a poor area demanding nearly fifty quid for their birthday event, with their site exclusively linking to a ticket page showing just one image showing an extremely narrow and unrepresentative demographic?

Can you do that without introducing further distractions?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> The event is run by Pop Brixton. It's being used to sell tickets for their event. It's directly linked from their own site as the only place where you can buy tickets.  Who do you think supplied the image?
> It's a shit generic corporate image. Not sure why it should offend you as I doubt if many people bother looking at it and the pub has absolutely nothing to do with the image. It wasn't taken in the pub and is not being put forward to promote an exclusive £50 event.



In short the Pop one is completely representative, and exactly what I'd expect from the them.

The Albert one is not at all representative and I find it it disappointing that one of the Brixton venues that still has half an ounce of character left should have such a bland and generic website.

What they are promoting or not promoting doesn't impact my thoughts about how both are visually represented.

ETA: I'm not sure what The Albert is about these days, given that they now offer a £10 dirty burger, and a Porn Star Martini.


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> In short the Pop one is completely representative, and exactly what I'd expect from the them.
> 
> The Albert one is not at all representative and I find it it disappointing that one of the Brixton venues that still has half an ounce of character left should have such a bland and generic website.


The point you seem unable to grasp is that the Albert has nothing to do with the picture on the corporate website neither do they have any control over the site. It's run by Greene King. 
This is the website run by the Albert's landlord: Facebook


Nanker Phelge said:


> ETA: I'm not sure what The Albert is about these days, given that they now offer a £10 dirty burger, and a Porn Star Martini.


I'm not sure why we're even discussing the Albert as it has zero relevance to the Lambeth-backed, self styled 'community project' at Pop.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> The point you seem unable to grasp is that the Albert has nothing to do with the picture on the corporate website



I absolutely understand that, and it is that which I find disappointing. I think the 'corporate' website lets the Albert down by not demonstrating any of it's character. Which is why it bothers me more than the POP image.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm not sure why we're even discussing the Albert as it has zero relevance to the Lambeth-backed, self styled 'community project' at Pop.



comparing and contrasting other local businesses and their products and the way they present themselves  has been a part of this thread since it started, and has been done by most posters who have contributed to this thread. You may find it it has no relevance to the wider discussions around Pop, but I do.


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I absolutely understand that, and it is that which I find disappointing. I think the 'corporate' website lets the Albert down by not demonstrating any of it's character. Which is why it bothers me more than the POP image.


Yes, it's shit. But it doesn't really matter because most people who go to the Albert don't bother looking at such crap sites and the pub still attracts a mixed crowd. And the pub's proper website represents the place pretty well.

But all this has got precisely nothing to do with a "community project" that is supposedly "committed to supporting the local community" advertising an unaffordable event showing an extremely narrow demographic with zero diversity.  That is the point.

The Albert was only brought up as a cheap shot to have a go at me and unfortunately you've decided to run with it.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 2, 2016)

Porn Star Martini?!!


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> The Albert was only brought up as a cheap shot to have a go at me and unfortunately you've decided to run with it.



I'm not running with anything other than the points I've raised. I'm certainly not supporting 'cheap shots' unless they are of the alcoholic kind...


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

So Pop Fields is opening 10th June, just in time for all the summer sports events....

Pop Brixton

If you have enough dough you can hire it out for a private event.....


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So Pop Fields is opening 10th June, just in time for all the summer sports events....
> 
> Pop Brixton
> 
> If you have enough dough you can hire it out for a private event.....





> So plan to spend your summer at Pop Fields watching sport in the sunshine, with the best kind of refreshments supplied by our restaurants, bars and street food traders


If they're going to put on the Euro 2016 games that may well have hit some of the local pubs hard - they often rely on the cash that big tournaments bring in. It almost feels like they're dancing on the ghost of the Canterbury Arms on which they now stand


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

Yes, it is a bitter irony.


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Yes, it is a bitter irony.


An expensive one too: you can guarantee that the drink prices at Pop will be hugely more expensive than the Canterbury.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Porn Star Martini?!!



I've done some research and it's fairly common apparently...but I've not heard of it before....not that cocktails are my thing.


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I've done some research and it's fairly common apparently...but I've not heard of it before....not that cocktails are my thing.


You can guarantee that it's not something the landlord wants on his menu. To be honest, I've never seen a single cocktail served at the Albert. In fact, I didn't even know they did them until it was brought up here (to score points, natch).

Still, if people want to persist with this erroneous comparison, I note that they're priced at 2 for 1 after 5pm. So that's £3.50 per cocktail. Shall we see what the price is at the _committed to supporting the local community _Pop?


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> You can guarantee that it's not something the landlord wants on his menu. To be honest, I've never seen a single cocktail served at the Albert.



Do the staff even know how to make 'em?


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## han (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Do the staff even know how to make 'em?


I doubt it - they don't even usually have a clue who's turn it is to be served next, unlike in the good old days.... 

Pubs *like that* aren't really where anyone would go for cocktails, are they. What an odd idea.


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

han said:


> I doubt it - they don't even usually have a clue who's turn it is to be served next, unlike in the good old days....
> 
> Pubs *like that* aren't really where anyone would go for cocktails, are they. What an odd idea.


The whole thing is a glorious irrelevance and distraction to the issue of Pop's unaffordable 'feast' and troubling lack of diversity in their publicity material.


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## han (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> The whole thing is a glorious irrelevance and distraction to the issue of Pop's unaffordable 'feast' and troubling lack of diversity in their publicity material.


I was merely answering a question, but yes, I agree with you about Pop. The lack of diversity in that photo (age, ethnicity etc) does reflect that they're not bothered about attracting the wider community at all. Just rich, young, white people.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

han said:


> I was merely answering a question, but yes, I agree with you about Pop. The lack of diversity in that photo (age, ethnicity etc) does reflect that they're not bothered about attracting the wider community at all. Just rich, young, white people.



Yes, any chance of Pop ever being a genuine community focussed venture has long since gone, and now they they are not even trying to pretend otherwise. That's not going to change is it? It's likely to become more monocultural, not less.

It's there for the people they want it to be there for, which is those that have enough disposable income to have an £8 cocktail and a £10+ burger...and pay £5 for a beer....etc etc etc....

No one's doing anything about it though are they? Pop has been allowed to do as it the pleases. the railway arch businesses will go, more local shops and businesses will suffer under rent increases and more local people will be displaced due to greedy landlords and property developers?

I'm a bit numb to it all now....


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Oh, and the Albert doesn't serve cocktails.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> Oh, and the Albert doesn't serve cocktails.



False advertising....bastards!!!


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> False advertising....bastards!!!


Like I said, that site really has very little to do with the Albert itself. It's just a crappy generic corporate placeholder. But if they _did_ do cocktails, they'd be a shitload cheaper than rip off Pop


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 2, 2016)

There's enough cocktails in the world...we can live without anymore...


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> There's enough cocktails in the world...we can live without anymore...


I dearly wish that were true but I've no doubt there'll be even more cocktail-shuntin' yuppie attractin' unaffordably priced cocktail bars opening up in Brixton soon. They go so well with a £10 trendyburger.


----------



## T & P (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> Sigh. It's all getting so fucking predictable and pathetic these days, but at least it's evidence of the sheer desperation of the counter-arguments. *How about addressing the issue of a self styled community project in a poor area demanding nearly fifty quid for their birthday event*, with their site exclusively linking to a ticket page showing just one image showing an extremely narrow and unrepresentative demographic?
> 
> Can you do that without introducing further distractions?



I have just looked on the Pop website- something I seldom do as I have little reason to- and was surprised to see that this supper club event is not the one and only birthday event, actually.

One of the other birthday events is a fancy dress birthday ball this Friday, and is completely free of charge.

And the *main *birthday party event takes place on Saturday and consists of 12 hours of live music and DJ sets, with tickets costing a very affordable and reasonable £3 to £5.

I thought this was worth pointing out in case some people thought the £50 gourmet dining gig was the only birthday event at Pop Brixton, which would have indeed been rather exclusive. But as it happens that's not the case at all.


----------



## 3Zeros (Jun 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> I have just looked on the Pop website- something I seldom do as I have little reason to- and was surprised to see that this supper club event is not the one and only birthday event, actually.
> 
> One of the other birthday events is a fancy dress birthday ball this Friday, and is completely free of charge.
> 
> ...



I don't see that anyone claimed that the meal was the only event, but I'm glad you took time out of your day to investigate. I'm sure this was done for the good of the posters of this forum and definitely not so you could feel you got "one-up" in this thread. Well done you.


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> And the *main *birthday party event takes place on Saturday and consists of 12 hours of live music and DJ sets, with tickets costing a very affordable and reasonable £3 to £5.
> 
> I thought this was worth pointing out in case some people thought the £50 gourmet dining gig was the only birthday event at Pop Brixton, which would have indeed been rather exclusive. But as it happens that's not the case at all.


The £50 'feast' is still exclusive, regardless of any other events that take place. Add in the fact that the place trumpets itself as being "for the community" yet advertises the event with a photo completely free of diversity and you've got an indefensible pile of excusive bollocks. 

And as for those other events, the place will still be ripping off punters with £5 pints in shitty plastic containers. But that's alright with you too, eh?


----------



## T & P (Jun 2, 2016)

.


3Zeros said:


> I don't see that anyone claimed that the meal was the only event, but I'm glad you took time out of your day to investigate. I'm sure this was done for the good of the posters of this forum and definitely not so you could feel you got "one-up" in this thread. Well done you.


Really good contribution to the debate, well done


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> .
> 
> Really good contribution to the debate, well done


Seems a whole load more meaningful and on-topic than bringing up the Albert in a disasterously backfiring attempt to undermine the discussion with cheap personal digs.


----------



## T & P (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> The £50 'feast' is still exclusive, regardless of any other events that take place. Add in the fact that the place trumpets itself as being "for the community" yet advertises the event with a photo completely free of diversity and you've got an indefensible pile of excusive bollocks.
> 
> And as for those other events, the place will still be ripping off punters with £5 pints in shitty plastic containers. But that's alright with you too, eh?


I thought we were done debating image demographics?

Of course the supper club event is exclusive- I said that myself. But Pop/ Grow Brixton had always, from the very beginning, been envisaged to be supported by commercial ventures. It was never going to be a 100% free, non commercial experience for the community. If every event taking place cost as much money as the supper club it would be a different story, naturally. But it is just *one *event*. *One.


----------



## T & P (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> Seems a whole load more meaningful and on-topic than bringing up the Albert in a disasterously backfiring attempt to undermine the discussion with cheap personal digs.


Who's been doing that?


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> Who's been doing that?


Did you miss the references to the Albert in this thread? How strange.


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

T & P said:


> I thought we were done debating image demographics?
> 
> Of course the supper club event is exclusive- I said that myself. But Pop/ Grow Brixton had always, from the very beginning, been envisaged to be supported by commercial ventures. It was never going to be a 100% free, non commercial experience for the community. If every event taking place cost as much money as the supper club it would be a different story, naturally. But it is just *one *event*. *One.


But it's absolutely OK with you for community projects that claim to be 'for the community' to hold unaffordable, exclusive events as part of their birthday celebrations, yes? It's not like this is the only unaffordble 'feast' they've had there, but generally birthday meal celebrations are for everyone, not just the well-to-do.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 2, 2016)

Nobody claimed it but from the discussion on here i got the impression it was the only thing on. £3 - £5 sounds pretty affordable


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## T & P (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> But it's absolutely OK with you for community projects that claim to be 'for the community' to hold unaffordable, exclusive events as part of their birthday celebrations, yes? It's not like this is the only unaffordble 'feast' they've had there, but generally birthday meal celebrations are for everyone, not just the well-to-do.


It's a fair point and I agree with it and with your sentiment about it. I am not claiming that everything that takes place in Pop is good or beyond criticism.


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## editor (Jun 2, 2016)

So if nearly £50 for the meal didn't make it unaffordable enough, how about £4 for a small can (i.e. just over half a pint) of 40 Ft Pale Ale?


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## twistedAM (Jun 2, 2016)

editor said:


> So if nearly £50 for the meal didn't make it unaffordable enough, how about £4 for a small can (i.e. just over half a pint) of 40 Ft Pale Ale?



Dalston beer, so bound to be expensive


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## CH1 (Jun 3, 2016)

twistedAM said:


> Dalston beer, so bound to be expensive


Gets 78/100 on Ratebeer.com though at 4.1% abv I wouldn't buy it for £4. Maybe if it was some head-banger special 14%.


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## editor (Jun 3, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Gets 78/100 on Ratebeer.com though at 4.1% abv I wouldn't buy it for £4. Maybe if it was some head-banger special 14%.


Three pints (and a bit). For £24. Utter rip off.

Untappd gives it just 3.8 out of 5.


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## twistedAM (Jun 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Three pints (and a bit). For £24. Utter rip off.
> 
> Untappd gives it just 3.8 out of 5.



Tut tut, the money they spent on design, marketing and PR more than justifies this.


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## CH1 (Jun 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Three pints (and a bit). For £24. Utter rip off.
> Untappd gives it just 3.8 out of 5.


Not convinced your link is the Dalston brew. It refers to an Australian beer amusingly called "Redneck English Easter Bunny".
On the other hand 40ft Pale Ale is definitively the Dalston overpriced stuff.


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## editor (Jun 3, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Not convinced your link is the Dalston brew. It refers to an Australian beer amusingly called "Redneck English Easter Bunny".
> On the other hand 40ft Pale Ale is definitively the Dalston overpriced stuff.


Whomever makes it, £4 for a small can is one hell of a fucking rip off, even more so when people have already paid the best part of £50 for the 'feast.'


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## editor (Jun 3, 2016)

Diverse crowd there now for the birthday celebration.


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## CH1 (Jun 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Whomever makes it, £4 for a small can is one hell of a fucking rip off, even more so when people have already paid the best part of £50 for the 'feast.'


Seems there is a cheaper range of speciality canned beers available from Wetherspoons (around £2,50).
Never seen anyone order it EVER at the Beehive mind, and of course beer purists do warn:

"It’s not oxidation that causes skunking – its the degradation of isohumulones from the hops. Oxidation causes cardboard and eventually vinegar flavours."

Sorry to bore on like this - I don'r get out much!


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## twistedAM (Jun 3, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Seems there is a cheaper range of speciality canned beers available from Wetherspoons (around £2,50).
> Never seen anyone order it EVER at the Beehive mind, and of course beer purists do warn:
> 
> "It’s not oxidation that causes skunking – its the degradation of isohumulones from the hops. Oxidation causes cardboard and eventually vinegar flavours."
> ...



The Six Points "Bengali" has a cult following in the Spoons I frequent most. They also had some local IPA on offer at £1.49 a can.


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## discobastard (Jun 3, 2016)

editor said:


> Three pints (and a bit). For £24. Utter rip off.
> 
> Untappd gives it just 3.8 out of 5.


It's all relative. Carling gets 2.5.


----------



## editor (Jun 3, 2016)

discobastard said:


> It's all relative. Carling gets 2.5.


But Carling is just £3.30 a pint. £4 for a small, fairly weak can of beer is a fucking total rip, however you spin it.


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## discobastard (Jun 3, 2016)

editor said:


> But Carling is just £3.30 a pint. £4 for a small, fairly weak can of beer is a fucking total rip, however you spin it.


Depends on the taste though eh? And whether you are drinking in or taking away. 

I love Magic Rock's High Wire Grapefruit. It's usually about £2.60 a can to buy and take away, but it's £4.50 plus in Beer Rebellion on Gipsy Hill to drink in. 

And I'd rather have a small can of something I like than a pint of something that doesn't taste of much. Quality/quantity and all that. 

It's not really a total rip if you like beer and that's what you choose to drink over something else. Or spend on something else. 

I'm not saying it's cheap but I think you're overplaying it. In fact I'm surprised they're not charging more.


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## editor (Jun 3, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Depends on the taste though eh? And whether you are drinking in or taking away.
> 
> I love Magic Rock's High Wire Grapefruit. It's usually about £2.60 a can to buy and take away, but it's £4.50 plus in Beer Rebellion on Gipsy Hill to drink in.
> 
> ...


OK. So you don't think £4 for a small can of non-imported 4.1% beer at a £47.50 event in a community venture that's supposed to a celebrating its birthday  is a rip off. I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Add in the fact that it's not even in a proper restaurant and the rip looks even bigger to me.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 3, 2016)




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## T & P (Jun 3, 2016)

No doubt the beer in question is outrageously expensive, but will it be the only one available? Because if others are available for purchase then it is a non-issue...


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## editor (Jun 3, 2016)

T & P said:


> No doubt the beer in question is outrageously expensive, but will it be the only one available? Because if others are available for purchase then it is a non-issue...


There was only one other beer available on the 'feast' menu and that was priced at £5/bottle, so I'm afraid your defence is rather flawed.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 3, 2016)




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## T & P (Jun 3, 2016)

editor said:


> There was only one other beer available on the 'feast' menu and that was priced at £5/bottle, so I'm afraid your defence is rather flawed.


Not so much defence of anything as a genuine question- I had no idea where and when this beer would be available. In fact, I had assumed that some booze would be included for that kind of price 

As an aside note, if one is paying good money to enjoy a gourmet meal, it should be complimented with wine not beer.


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## T & P (Jun 3, 2016)

editor said:


> There was only one other beer available on the 'feast' menu and that was priced at £5/bottle, so I'm afraid your defence is rather flawed.


Out of curiosity, where can I see the menu? Can't find it on the website...


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## discobastard (Jun 4, 2016)

editor said:


> OK. So you don't think £4 for a small can of non-imported 4.1% beer at a £47.50 event in a community venture that's supposed to be for the local Brixton community is a rip off. I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Add in the fact that it's not even in a proper restaurant and the rip looks even bigger to me.



For context and balance there are a number of things to take into account here.

Just because a pint of Carling is £3.30 does not in any way mean that a can of independently brewed beer should not cost £4.  There’s lots and lots of interconnected reasons why that is the case. (yes you might say that talking about Carling has nothing to do with the argument but you've used it as a counter argument before so I'm using it as a frame of reference rather than as a personal dig)

·  Some people like beer and trying new things and may be happy to pay for something like that (it probably even tastes quite nice).  That doesn’t mean you’re wrong if you like drinking Carling or choose to spend your money on cheaper beer that others would balk at.  I just mean that some people might prefer it over something else and would be happy to pay more.  In the same way that you can buy some really disgusting cheap wine that will leave you with a very nasty headache.  Or you can choose to spend additional cash and have something more palatable (which will depend on the individual

·  The costs to a small independent brewery to make the beer, and the costs to a (relatively) smaller venue will be far higher than the costs to a massive multinational like Molson Coors who make Carling and can churn it out for next to nothing – and also for massive pub chains like Greene King (and Wetherspoons, say), who have *massive* buying power.  I suspect the profit margin on a pint of £3.30 Carling is some way higher than on a £4 can of 40ft Pale Ale.  So if anybody is feeling smug about drinking big glasses of Carling or Fosters or whatever cheap session lager, you are probably getting fucking rinsed price wise

·  Some people might prefer two small cans of something different rather than four pints of something very mass market

·  I thought we liked independent quirky offerings here rather than massive corporate ‘will this do?’ offerings.  Maybe I’m wrong?  We’ve had this argument before about Sam Smiths pubs being really great and cheap – whereas actually the ethics behind Sam Smiths is dodgy as fuck and it’s a company that is actively having a very negative impact on people’s livelihoods and communities (though you had me on ignore at the time so maybe you didn’t read it) (and no you weren’t necessarily the main protagonist in that argument so its not a personal dig but IT IS STILL VERY RELEVANT)

·  You cannot assume that somebody charging £4 for a can of beer, with the whole supply chain involved, means that they are making a massive profit.  They might be making tuppence a can if the whole business model is being managed really poorly (they are probably making more than that – but everybody has to take a cut e.g. so they can pay the waiting staff and the rent).  But price/turnover is no indication of profit (see stuff about investment/economies of scale above)

·  I suspect people investing that money on a night out like that would be pretty fucked off if they turned up and all that was on offer was Carling Black Label lager and Echo Falls wine

·  Here we go again, but I think we’re agreed (are we not) that spending money with small independents is more healthy that spending it with big corporates and multinationals

·  And back to the real basics here (and I may be repeating myself), but comparing a pint of £3.30 mass produced Carling is an utterly worthless argument.  Yes the amount of liquid you get for the money you pay is much more favourable with Carling but NOT ALL LIQUIDS ARE THE SAME AND THE AMOUNT YOU GET IS NOT THE IMPORTANT THING.  And your example I think was pretty much trying to suggest that you get more for less at the Albert

And *most importantly*, I think we’ve established (many times) that Pop Brixton would not appear to be always catering for the local community (or at least the traditional resident local community).  So in the context of what it *is*, it appears to be something aimed at people who like ‘street food’ and ‘craft beer’ and have a reasonably solid disposable income or at least are choosing to splash out at an event.  And something which presumably the people involved in staging the event would like to make some money out of (i.e. those catering for the event are hardly likely to want to do it for no return).  In that context then £4 for a can of trendy beer appears to be par for the course (and its actually cheaper than other places I’ve been to selling that kind of stuff).

It’s all another case of attacking symptom vs cause, or complain about weather vs climate.  Both very different things.

So holding up the price of a can of beer as an outrage, the financials of which nobody knows about (40ft Brewery was incorporated in early 2015 and so no company accounts are yet publicly available), is a *massive* red herring and a total waste of time.  I suspect (but cannot be sure) that they may be still (and possibly for years to come) paying off a huge business loan given how new they are.  Maybe they’re not and they got loads of cash from mummy and daddy but we don’t know.  And if they did get financed, then they are still accountable to whomever financed them and have to turn a pretty profit to pay that off.  And *nobody* is going to go into business without turning a profit otherwise you might as well just throw cash down the drain.

So the price of this beer, which is pretty much market rate (served in a licensed venue rather than an off licence) really shouldn’t be the cause for outrage that it is.

This all shouldn’t (and I hope it doesn’t) stop anybody from attempting to hold those behind Pop accountable for not delivering on the original promise (although as we’ve seen there do appear to be some community focused and affordable events alongside these more extravagant affairs).  It hasn’t delivered on its original promise as you and many other continue to point out (and I can’t and don’t need to argue with that).  Though it was probably never going to – wherever local government and the private sector is involved, you’re the fucking mug if you believe what they tell you.

So of itself, this event and the price of the beer is one of those regular, symbolic Aunt Sallys that is just distracting from the main issue, and creates far, far more heat than light/arguments/perceived personal digs etc.  And that can’t be a good thing.  And it’s *quite* boring.

Going on and on about the price of a can of beer or a £10 burger is actually detracting from your own, perfectly valid, argument, because you are sidelining all of the context outlined above.  It’s a waste of time.

Please feel free to debate this, respectfully and without any ill will.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 4, 2016)

discobastard said:


> For context and balance there are a number of things to take into account here.
> 
> Just because a pint of Carling is £3.30 does not in any way mean that a can of independently brewed beer should not cost £4.  There’s lots and lots of interconnected reasons why that is the case. (yes you might say that talking about Carling has nothing to do with the argument but you've used it as a counter argument before so I'm using it as a frame of reference rather than as a personal dig)
> 
> ...




TL/DR


----------



## discobastard (Jun 4, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> TL/DR


You're missing out


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 4, 2016)

discobastard said:


> For context and balance there are a number of things to take into account here.
> 
> Just because a pint of Carling is £3.30 does not in any way mean that a can of independently brewed beer should not cost £4.  There’s lots and lots of interconnected reasons why that is the case. (yes you might say that talking about Carling has nothing to do with the argument but you've used it as a counter argument before so I'm using it as a frame of reference rather than as a personal dig)
> 
> ...



I got to the second paraaaaagrrrrrrrr.zzzzzzz


----------



## discobastard (Jun 4, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> I got to the second paraaaaagrrrrrrrr.zzzzzzz


That's kind of the point. It's human nature to only process the stuff that makes sense to you or is easy, or fits with whatever your nuance-free world view might be.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 4, 2016)

discobastard said:


> That's kind of the point. It's human nature to only process the stuff that makes sense to you or is easy, or fits with whatever your nuance-free world view might be.



Or random thoughts that are a little less than 10 paragraphs full of shit?

Try to be a little more succinct.


----------



## discobastard (Jun 4, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Or random thoughts that are a little less than 10 paragraphs full of shit?
> 
> Try to be a little more succinct.


How do you know its shit if you didn't read it?


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 4, 2016)

discobastard said:


> How do you know its shit if you didn't read it?



Yaaaaawn...

Because it will be the same bollocks you and your ilk always type.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 4, 2016)

Night all.


----------



## discobastard (Jun 4, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Yaaaaawn...
> 
> Because it will be the same bollocks you and your ilk always type.


Lazy.


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 4, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Lazy.



Cunt


----------



## discobastard (Jun 4, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Cunt


Even lazier. 

Have a great weekend.

(I genuinely mean that)


----------



## alfajobrob (Jun 4, 2016)

You as well.....


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 4, 2016)

discobastard said:


> For context and balance there are a number of things to take into account here.
> 
> Just because a pint of Carling is £3.30 does not in any way mean that a can of independently brewed beer should not cost £4.  There’s lots and lots of interconnected reasons why that is the case. (yes you might say that talking about Carling has nothing to do with the argument but you've used it as a counter argument before so I'm using it as a frame of reference rather than as a personal dig)
> 
> ...



Good post, although i think i said this rather more succintly with my gif.


----------



## editor (Jun 4, 2016)

And here, finally, is the horrible truth behind how Grow Brixton turned into Pop Brixton. It makes for some very depressing reading. 

Exclusive: Grow Brixton to Pop Brixton – how a green oasis for the community turned into a 21st Century business park


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## editor (Jun 4, 2016)

discobastard said:


> So the price of this beer, which is pretty much market rate (served in a licensed venue rather than an off licence) really shouldn’t be the cause for outrage that it is.


Not sure where you drink, but I've never paid £4 for a small can of weak lager in any pub, club or restaurant I've ever been to around Brixton - and Pop Brixton isn't even a proper restaurant. It's a big makeshift wooden space made out of old shipping containers with temporary chairs and tables added. And don't forget: it's all supposed to be "for the community."


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## Lucy Fur (Jun 4, 2016)

editor said:


> And here, finally, is the horrible truth behind how Grow Brixton turned into Pop Brixton. It makes for some very depressing reading.
> 
> Exclusive: Grow Brixton to Pop Brixton – how a green oasis for the community turned into a 21st Century business park


Excellent article, and if al the pro POP we like our fancy burgers and rip off price beers can't see what is at the heart of this development and why it wrankles so much, then i guess that is both theirs and our loss. Its a fucking disgrace and it is Lambeth BC that should hang its head in shame.


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## editor (Jun 4, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Excellent article, and if al the pro POP we like our fancy burgers and rip off price beers can't see what is at the heart of this development and why it wrankles so much, then i guess that is both theirs and our loss. Its a fucking disgrace and it is Lambeth BC that should hang its head in shame.


"For the community". Yeah, right.


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## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2016)

editor said:


> And here, finally, is the horrible truth behind how Grow Brixton turned into Pop Brixton. It makes for some very depressing reading.
> 
> Exclusive: Grow Brixton to Pop Brixton – how a green oasis for the community turned into a 21st Century business park



Very good piece by Jason. Glad that EBS have decided to speak out.

What is depressing is that it could have been an example of how to deal with change and bring people together. 

It's done the opposite. Most people I know don't like Pop. They thought they were going to get something different.


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## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2016)

A comment at end of Jason's piece from the bid that lost to Grow Brixton says he reckons they lost as there proposal appeared to be to commercial compared to the Grow Brixton one.

I'm not surprised they feel aggrieved.

For Lambeth to say they had no alternative to Turner is wrong . They could have given the land to the runner up.


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## cuppa tee (Jun 5, 2016)

I am dubious about this from CTA .......


> At this point, the project was renamed Pop Brixton (POP being an acronym for ‘Places on Pope’s Rd’) and the scheme continued, ensuring the original goals and objectives of the project were maintained.


would a truer acronym be POPR Brixton, sounds like it was knocked up to order to divert attention from the fact it was commercial brand from the outset.......anyway I prefer the acronym Eyesore aka exclusive yuppie enclave on Station Road


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## CH1 (Jun 5, 2016)

Bored and looking for something to do on a nice Sunday afternoon?
Pop Fields


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## Mr Retro (Jun 5, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Bored and looking for something to do on a nice Sunday afternoon?
> Pop Fields


It does look like a great place to watch sport. I'll be giving it a miss though, it would feel like dancing on The Canterburys grave.


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## leanderman (Jun 5, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Very good piece by Jason. Glad that EBS have decided to speak out.
> 
> What is depressing is that it could have been an example of how to deal with change and bring people together.
> 
> It's done the opposite. Most people I know don't like Pop. They thought they were going to get something different.



Would have been interesting to hear comments from some traders at Pop.


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Would have been interesting to hear comments from some traders at Pop.


Why? What has that to do with the article? The traders/entrepreneurs aren't to blame or involved in what went on: they've just capitalised on the huge shift in direction from Grow to Pop and good luck to them.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 5, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Would have been interesting to hear comments from some traders at Pop.



Jason asked the Council and CTA for comments which he put in the article. 

He gave them right of reply.

Thats enough for me.


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## discobastard (Jun 5, 2016)

editor said:


> Not sure where you drink, but I've never paid £4 for a small can of weak lager in any pub, club or restaurant I've ever been to around Brixton - and Pop Brixton isn't even a proper restaurant. It's a big makeshift wooden space made out of old shipping containers with temporary chairs and tables added. And don't forget: it's all supposed to be "for the community."


Completely missed the point. And again 'it's not all about you'.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Completely missed the point. And again 'it's not all about you'.


It was actually about the rip-off price of beer in Pop Brixton, but no matter. Enjoy your "market rate" £8 pints.


----------



## discobastard (Jun 6, 2016)

editor said:


> It was actually about the rip-off price of beer in Pop Brixton, but no matter. Enjoy your "market rate" £8 pints.


Though you conveniently ignored all of the context as usual and so in your world it all makes sense. So carry on [emoji1360]


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## editor (Jun 6, 2016)

Here's all the gang involved in Pop Fields.


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## Pop Tart (Jun 6, 2016)

Something I did not understand i n the article. The Bus Stop people said that the architect called there bluff and told them that if they did not resign from grow he would resign himself. Did they say why they did not just let him resign? 

The story mentions that the council were keen to see the chosen project get off the ground. If the architect resigned and left the Bus Stop running Grow and he set up a new rival project, why did the Bus Stop think the council might follow the architect to a new different project? You can't force people to work together and I just wonder if they felt the project was a bit too complicated for them to go ahead without the archgitect but he felt differnetly. Or did they worried the original plan was too risky finacially and did not want to risk it alone?

I wonder what would have happened if they had called his bluff and let the architect resign!


----------



## CH1 (Jun 6, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's all the gang involved in Pop Fields.
> View attachment 88130


Is this the same people who demolished the Canterbury and got planning permission for the ever growing block of flats?
If so there seems to be more to all this than meets the eye. If it was a larger bit of chicanery maybe it would get into Private Eye.


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Is this the same people who demolished the Canterbury and got planning permission for the ever growing block of flats?
> If so there seems to be more to all this than meets the eye. If it was a larger bit of chicanery maybe it would get into Private Eye.


Yes. It makes you wonder what was the fucking point of the consultation. They'd already quietly asked to expand the site after planning permission was granted and now this. Something smells fishy. 

May Developments applies to demolish Brixton’s Canterbury Arms and replace it with a nine-storey block of flats
Developer asks for extra units for luxury apartments on the site of the old Canterbury Arms boozer


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 6, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> Something I did not understand i n the article. The Bus Stop people said that the architect called there bluff and told them that if they did not resign from grow he would resign himself. Did they say why they did not just let him resign?
> 
> The story mentions that the council were keen to see the chosen project get off the ground. If the architect resigned and left the Bus Stop running Grow and he set up a new rival project, why did the Bus Stop think the council might follow the architect to a new different project? You can't force people to work together and I just wonder if they felt the project was a bit too complicated for them to go ahead without the archgitect but he felt differnetly. Or did they worried the original plan was too risky finacially and did not want to risk it alone?
> 
> I wonder what would have happened if they had called his bluff and let the architect resign!



From what I can make out from the article and other sources, CTA brought the majority of the financial backing, so was much more able to manipulate events through *threats* to resign. Turner would have been vanishingly-unlikely to have *actually* resigned, and as he brought the majority of the "financing", Lambeth and their sheeplike councillors would have turned cartwheels to keep him on-board over and above EBS. As ever, Hopkins _et al_ saw pound signs and lost control of their critical faculties.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 6, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> Something I did not understand i n the article. The Bus Stop people said that the architect called there bluff and told them that if they did not resign from grow he would resign himself. Did they say why they did not just let him resign?
> 
> I wonder what would have happened if they had called his bluff and let the architect resign!



I read that section again.

They did refuse to resign. The paragraphs after the one where Turner tells them to resign or else he will discuss meetings between EBS and officers. Then mediation set up by Council. This all means that EBS called his bluff. If u follow the time line of what happened. 

I know it's complicated but I think ur reading it wrong on that point.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 6, 2016)

I read it wrong too. But looks like they gave up before he did. Be interesting to know what would have happened if CTA had quit instead.


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## teuchter (Jun 6, 2016)

**speculation only**

I reckon it probably went something like this.

CTA and EB put together an entry for the competition, probably in a hurry and not necessarily thinking they'd actually win it.

Then it became a real project. At this point everyone has to get a bit serious because it has to be paid for, and as far as I understand this wasn't just a design proposal but a business proposal. It's not like CTA and EB just have to work to produce designs for Lambeth or a developer, they have to fund it as well and it seems like a chunk of that funding was coming from CTA themselves (through that house sale).

And the reality of the project is that it was actually quite a sizeable and complex development that had to be built in a very short time (and the size/complexity probably became increasingly apparent during the period after winning the competition, while putting the planning application together). Something like that is not a small undertaking even for an architectural practice that is just doing the architectural work (let alone also worrying about the business risks). To do all the design work to get it to construction stage, to sort out planning permission and building regs and all the other stuff that you have to deal with is probably enough work to keep two employees at least busy for a good few months, perhaps more like a year.

So putting myself in Carl Turner's shoes, and I don't know him and he probably has a lot more business experience than me and I am just trying to imagine the scenario - I, at that point, would be breaking into a bit of a cold sweat because not only am I partly funding this thing with my own money/house and taking on the risk that the commercial side of things doesn't pan out but I am committing myself and at least some of my salaried employees to a load of work which we only get paid for if the business side of the project works out.

And I don't know loads about EB but as far as I understand they are a fairly small operation whose experience is doing small public space/landscaping projects which no doubt they are perfectly competent to do but I don't imagine they have the experience or resources to get stuck into all aspects of the technical design of something like Pop Brixton.

So with CTA investing a substantial amount of their own money, plus being the ones who would have to undertake the majority of the design work I can see why a 1/3 of 3-way split of decision-making power might start to look like rather a worrying arrangement. I can see why they might start to think they'd rather pay EB in proportion to their design input instead of continuing with them as equal-share business partners.

Of course I can also see how this could be massively unfair to EB, if its true that they were deliberately exploited and if there wasn't a genuine intention that they would be able to continue as equal partners, assuming that was the nature of the original agreement.

And if EB had called the bluff? I expect CTA would have resigned for the reasons above and the project would not have been able to go anywhere without a similar company coming on board which would probably have similar concerns and similarly would not want to go ahead on the terms which EB wanted.

All just my speculation though.

The Buzz article of course overstates the extent to which the final thing differs from what was originally proposed. Not interested in the detail of the bid entry, but the "green oasis" soundbite. Which I actually thought came from some PR attached to the original bid but the link in the article takes us to an instance of its use as PR for what's actually there now.


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## Gramsci (Jun 6, 2016)

teuchter said:


> **speculation only**
> 
> 
> And if EB had called the bluff? I expect CTA would have resigned for the reasons above and the project would not have been able to go anywhere without a similar company coming on board which would probably have similar concerns and similarly would not want to go ahead on the terms which EB wanted.
> ...



No the Buzz article does not "of course" overstate. I would like an independent audit done to see if the Pop project is keeping to the original brief. I would also like the Council to canvass the local community on what they feel about the project. Very much doubt the Council will do either.

If Turner is much more experienced why did he make the mistake of making the two people from EBS have three way share of the original organisation with him? If the argument is that EBS are a bunch of dippy green community types with no business acumen why did Turner do this? And he had worked with them before at the Battersea project. So it not like he had only just worked with them.

After all EBS did call his bluff. They obviously refused to resign.

Worth quoting this:



> The response from Turner was to call the bluff of his fellow Directors. He told Sandy and Gilchrist to resign, else he would resign and approach Lambeth directly to take 100% control of the project. A Freedom of Information request submitted by the EBS shows that he had already been in communications with Lambeth about his ambitions.
> 
> The EBS reminded Tom Bridgman, the Lead Delivery for Regeneration at Lambeth Council, that the Intellectual Property for Grow:Brixton was owned as part of a three way partnership.
> 
> ...



So EBS did not resign. They then met senior officers. By this time they had raised money. It was them that the Council suggested mediation.

At any time Turner could have resigned. As he threatened to do if EBS did not. He didn’t. He went to mediation.

I wouldn’t mind so much if the Council had said that this was shit but Pop- more commercially orientated project- was the only option. What winds me up is the way the Council present it as a great success.

Funnily enough, prior to Jasons piece, I was at a meeting of the Brixton Neighbourhood Forum, and Bridgeman was there to tell us all about the wonderful projects that the Council was doing. Including Pop. Met with stony silence on that one. Most people I know have given up on it.

I don’t think Turner has demonstrated great business experience. But a lot of so called business acumen is winging it. He chanced it , got hard headed, got someone in with experience to run the business side of it ( Castaing) and had the Council support it through putting the Impact Business Hub there ( moved from the Town Hall). He also outmanoeuvred EBS with dealing with officers. Quite an operator.

( As well as the Impact Hub Council did not put up objection to the alterations to the original planning application that was put in by Grow. )

If Pop is an example of something its ruthless business with a bit of community thrown in. So its hard headed business with a bit of PR community stuff. He has shown himself to be a successful entrepreneur with a business model that can be replicated elsewhere.

All very well but hardly particularly radical use of a space to experiment on for a few years to find a different way of doing things.

I have talked to EBS a while back. Jasons article goes into more detail. They are more "fluffy". Trouble is in these time more community non commercial way of doing things is going to come up against brute realities of the market. The days of Red Ken and the GLC supporting projects is long gone.

So will the Council learn anything from this? Our Nu Labour Cllrs like Jacko think its wonderful. But they are Tory lite neo liberals who admire business or "entrepreneurship" as they term it.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2016)

Let me spin the beer chat off into a different thread, so please don't post anything beer related for a bit!
Moved here: Beers available in Brixton - craft, ale , keg, cask and more


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## teuchter (Jun 6, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> No the Buzz article does not "of course" overstate. I would like an independent audit done to see if the Pop project is keeping to the original brief. I would also like the Council to canvass the local community on what they feel about the project. Very much doubt the Council will do either.
> 
> If Turner is much more experienced why did he make the mistake of making the two people from EBS have three way share of the original organisation with him? If the argument is that EBS are a bunch of dippy green community types with no business acumen why did Turner do this? And he had worked with them before at the Battersea project. So it not like he had only just worked with them.



Does the Buzz article overstate the difference between the original proposal and what's there now? It does ask:
_
But is there much difference between the original Grow application, and what we now have in place at Pope’s Road as Pop Brixton?_

And goes on to make some comments about positive and negative effects...but it doesn't attempt to answer its own question in any objective way. I think there might be a clue in the title about what the author reckons though, don't you?

*Exclusive: Grow Brixton to Pop Brixton – how a green oasis for the community turned into a 21st Century business park*

To me, presenting an opinion that is then unsubstantiated counts as overstatement. Yes, an independent audit would be very interesting and might well reveal that it has fallen substantially short of its promises. Or it might not. I look forward to the outcome of the latest FOI.

Do you think I'm making an argument that EBS are a bunch of dippy green types with no business acumen? I'm certainly not. I was trying to picture how the situation may have appeared to CTA once the full implications of the project were apparent and why they may have wanted to assert more control over it. This is to do with the kind of expertise, resources and decision-making processes necessary to pull off something like Pop Brixton. Whether this situation arose because of EBS being difficult, CTAs misjudgement, was part of a ruthless master plan or the result of Lambeth generally bungling procedures I can't judge.

Generally in my experience "collectives" like EBS, at least the successful ones often have considerable business acumen. Trying to paint these groups as dippy green types (whether as a compliment or insult) in contrast to a company such as CTA would be very misled. As far as I can make out they tend to be groups of people who mostly make their living doing other things and do the community-type projects for relatively small amounts of money that they are good at acquiring via grants or sponsorships. They do those projects because they enjoy them and/or feel they are worthwhile. They might well effectively do stuff for less than minimum wage and don't provide anyone with a secure job. On the other hand yes, CTA appears a more covertly commercial operation but I expect it provides several people with relatively long term properly paid employment, and I'm pretty sure that they are motivated by doing good quality and worthwhile stuff too. What they do is a lot better and I'm sure less profitable than the work done by so many more genuinely ruthlessly commercial type of architectural firms.

CTA and EBS are fairly different sorts of animals so I wouldn't assume one or the other necessarily to be more worthy than the other. It looks like they have both done worthwhile stuff to me.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Does the Buzz article overstate the difference between the original proposal and what's there now? It does ask:
> _
> But is there much difference between the original Grow application, and what we now have in place at Pope’s Road as Pop Brixton?_
> 
> ...



What Jason says is this:



> It would be naive to think that Grow:Brixton wasn’t a commercial operation. Although the land was given free by Lambeth Council, overheads and running costs had to be met. The landlord was also expecting a healthy share with 50% of the profit.
> 
> Community events do take place at Pop Brixton. A common complaint from many local people however is that it has little connection with Brixton. The experience of eating or drinking in the space can be pleasant. But you don’t get a sense that you are in a part of South London that has a very special and unique heritage.



Even handed enough for me. And accurate to say many local people feel it has little connection to them. Its what I hear.

The title of piece is quoting from the "PR" blurb and Cllr Hopkins. So not an invention of Jasons.

EBS have finally come out and said after giving it a year they are disappointed with the end result and the reasons why. Whether one agrees with what they say is up to the reader of the article. 

Pop is going to divide people. Jason has his opinions but puts enough in the article for people to make up there own minds.


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Even handed enough for me. And accurate to say many local people feel it has little connection to them.



I don't agree with the apparently common complaint that Pop 'has little connection with Brixton'.

Not least because the tenants and traders that I know there are Brixton locals. And Pop claims 70 per cent are from Brixton or Lambeth.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I don't agree with the apparently common complaint that Pop 'has little connection with Brixton'.
> 
> Not least because the tenants and traders that I know there are Brixton locals.


Please elaborate on the connection that you see between Pop Brixton - with its almost uniformly narrow demographic - and the bustling street scene outside.

Please tell me about the strong cultural and community connections you see it making with the Station Road cafes, the market traders, the local council estates, the former Canterbury pub's clientèle and the wonderful mix of all nations and all ages working, drinking, walking and relaxing within its immediate proximity.

This is a very fair representation of what I usually see when I pass by:


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2016)

leanderman said:


> I don't agree with the apparently common complaint that Pop 'has little connection with Brixton'.
> 
> Not least because the tenants and traders that I know there are Brixton locals. And Pop claims 70 per cent are from Brixton or Lambeth.



You don’t have to agree. What I’m saying, from my experience, is that this is a common complaint. So Jason is right to report that.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2016)

Here's some images off their own Twitter feed, just to allay any predictably tiresome accusations of me supposedly being being selective or unrepresentative in the photos I've posted.


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## T & P (Jun 7, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's some images off their own Twitter feed, just to allay any predictably tiresome accusations of me supposedly being being selective or unrepresentative in the photos I've posted.



I can't see how you can read anything into those photographs, least of all how they might possibly show whether the site represents the local community. Those pictures are quite meaningless, really...


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## Pop Tart (Jun 7, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I read that section again.
> 
> They did refuse to resign. The paragraphs after the one where Turner tells them to resign or else he will discuss meetings between EBS and officers. Then mediation set up by Council. This all means that EBS called his bluff. If u follow the time line of what happened.
> 
> I know it's complicated but I think ur reading it wrong on that point.


I don't think I have misread. They article says they did resign.  The story seems to imply they were forced to resign but it is not obvious how. I'd be interested to know more from the Bust Stop people themselves why they had no option. 

The story also says the Bus Stop said they had raised there half of the money 136,000 pounds for the project. That does not sound to me like half the money needed. I don't know really but could anyone build Pop for 272,000? Sounds unrealistic. I have read on here that it cost a million. Makes me think money was the issue.


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## teuchter (Jun 7, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> What Jason says is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're talking about apparent even handedness in assessing the pros and cons of the project in general. I was talking about the question of whether the reality matches what was originally promised which I don't think the article addresses.

To answer that question it would have to look at the specific details set out in the original proposal (not just a PR image and a four word quote from some PR blurb that doesn't even seem to have been written at the outset) and compare these with what has come to pass in reality. 

I reckon that this would reveal various things have indeed changed but I suspect not to the extent that the title of the article tries to suggest.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2016)

T & P said:


> I can't see how you can read anything into those photographs, least of all how they might possibly show whether the site represents the local community. Those pictures are quite meaningless, really...


For a project claimed to be for "all of the community," the blatant lack of diversity and the domination of a wafer thin, well heeled demographic troubles me deeply. Clearly you think it's all OK, so we'll leave it at that.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> Makes me think money was the issue.


If that was the case, why didn't CTA and Lambeth say so in their statements?


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## Crispy (Jun 7, 2016)

What a fucking shambles


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## editor (Jun 7, 2016)

Tonight they're showing a showcase of short films made by local up and coming talent. Which is great. But then they charge £6 for the privilege which seems pretty much against the spirit of the venture and will clearly exclude some. Still, as their press release points out, "There is also a bar on site for all your beverage needs." As long as you can get a pint for a £5 in a plastic glass while you sit on your metal fold-up seat in a wooden barn, that's OK.


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## SpamMisery (Jun 7, 2016)

Silverfit filming at Popfields recently - lots of free and cheap (£3) sports activities in the local area for the elderly (over 45s)

These guys About Silverfit - Silverfit


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## T & P (Jun 7, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Silverfit filming at Popfields recently - lots of free and cheap (£3) sports activities in the local area for the elderly (over 45s)
> 
> These guys About Silverfit - Silverfit


I think calling over 45s elderly is a bit mean


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## editor (Jun 7, 2016)

T & P said:


> I think calling over 45s elderly is a bit mean


Ouch indeed. 

I note that they're not listed as offering any Silver Day events at Pop though... About Silverfit - Silverfit


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> I don't think I have misread. They article says they did resign.  The story seems to imply they were forced to resign but it is not obvious how. I'd be interested to know more from the Bust Stop people themselves why they had no option.
> 
> The story also says the Bus Stop said they had raised there half of the money 136,000 pounds for the project. That does not sound to me like half the money needed. I don't know really but could anyone build Pop for 272,000? Sounds unrealistic. I have read on here that it cost a million. Makes me think money was the issue.



I was dealing with a specific issue of the time line of events. The specific part of your post where you asked why they did not call Turners bluff. 

You got that wrong in your post. 
J


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

Mama's Jerk Station at Pop reviewed in today's Time Out:


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## leanderman (Jun 7, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> You don’t have to agree. What I’m saying, from my experience, is that this is a common complaint. So Jason is right to report that.



The question is whether the complaint that Pop has little connection with Brixton is accurate, especially with regard to who is based there.


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2016)

leanderman said:


> The question is whether the complaint that Pop has little connection with Brixton is accurate, especially with regard to who is based there.


Except many of the 'Lambeth-based' businesses at Pop are very much recent arrivals with little or no previous connection to the area, and Lambeth is a very big place indeed. It's a bit of spin that you seem happy to swallow without question.

Don't you wonder why there aren't any of the businesses in Station Road located there? Or why the 'community' venture Pop didn't invite the soon to be displaced long established businesses from the arches nearby?

Pop is obviously targeting a very narrow, unrepresentative but lucrative demographic. That's all fine except this is supposed be something for "_all the community_" and not just a boozy playground for well heeled 20/30 somethings and tourists.


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## Gramsci (Jun 7, 2016)

Group


leanderman said:


> The question is whether the complaint that Pop has little connection with Brixton is accurate, especially with regard to who is based there.



It's what a lot of people feel. The failure of Pop is that instead of bringing people together it's further polarised people. This thread is an example.
Two people I talked to on weekend. One does not like it for the reasons given in Jason article. The other thought all the changes are good. Arches being refurbished etc and Pop. At least he had a clear point of view. Even if I didn't agree.

There is going to be no meeting of minds on this.

If the Council think this Meanwhile use is an experiment in how to manage change. Bring old and new Brixton together it's going to have to think again.

And the Council needs to talk to people about it. Rather than just turning up to meetings and telling people how good it is. As I saw happen recently.


----------



## Harbourite (Jun 7, 2016)

T & P said:


> I think calling over 45s elderly is a bit mean


it's not mean, it's fucking outrageous <shakes fist, struggles to get up from sofa>


----------



## teuchter (Jun 7, 2016)

This evening, as I have someone staying with me, I thought we could see if we could get dinner at Kricket so we went into Pop Brixton.

It was quite busy and largely populated by what, ten years ago, we might have described as "people from Clapham". They were enjoying drinks and a proportion of those drinks were something that looked like Champagne.

At Kricket, which was full to capacity, someone ahead of us was giving his details to be put on the waiting list. He was dressed in Chinos and shirt and his name was Marcus.

We decided not to wait for an hour plus to get some food so we went elsewhere.

True story.


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 8, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I was dealing with a specific issue of the time line of events. The specific part of your post where you asked why they did not call Turners bluff.
> 
> You got that wrong in your post.
> J


Oh I see where you are coming from. Maybe we have different ideas about what a bluff is. I think you think there not resigning the moment he told them he’d go if they didn’t as there calling his bluff. I dont consider that a bluff – I imagine even the archictect would have been surprised if they had suddenly resigned on the spot in response to his threat. Their is nothing in the story which makes me think they called his bluff at all. If at any point they had said OK bugger off, we don’t need you and were going to carry on by ourselves I would have considered that calling his bluff. From what I have understood even through meditation the archictect didnt really budge his position throughout, Bus top never suggested they could carry on without him and they eventually did resign – maybe because they felt they could not manage the project without him - or maybe they could not convince the council that they could do it without him. 

FWIW impossible to know but I dont think the archictect was bluffing either. The relationship looks like it was too one sided and he did not have to bluff. Apart from money he had much more experience of building. Anyway we are speculating and i doubt the archictect or Bus Stop people will come on here to clear it up for us. Its too scary!


----------



## Winot (Jun 8, 2016)

It looks like EBS did need the money - I found this article about the early days of Grow Brixton which includes the quote:



> But, the Grow Brixon team are doing this for love, not money – Mak told me that she went to the bank last week only to find that there was no cash left in her account. Such a big project needs proper financial backing, so please spread the word and if you know anyone who might be able to help, they can contact Mak and Will here.


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> The story also says the Bus Stop said they had raised there half of the money 136,000 pounds for the project. That does not sound to me like half the money needed. I don't know really but could anyone build Pop for 272,000? Sounds unrealistic. I have read on here that it cost a million. Makes me think money was the issue.


Different concepts, with different budgets.  A commercial venture with a lot of infrastructure implies a lot more capital than people growing lettuces.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2016)

Winot said:


> It looks like EBS did need the money - I found this article about the early days of Grow Brixton which includes the quote:


That is quite wonderfully disingenuous. Well done. So, again, remind me why this out of context quote about a supposed lack of money had anything to do with their forced departure from the Pop project, given that neither Carl Turner or Lambeth mentioned it in their statements?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 8, 2016)

newbie said:


> Different concepts, with different budgets.  *A commercial venture with a lot of infrastructure* implies a lot more capital than people growing lettuces.



Which is what was outlined in the initial grow:brixton proposal.


----------



## editor (Jun 8, 2016)

Here's one for all the local community. A film screening with a bit of dressing up for just *£15 each* - but then you do get a 'bean bag' seat for extra wackiness. 
Fifteen fucking quid.

Block Party Cinema presents Dope Pop Brixton London | DesignMyNight


----------



## CH1 (Jun 8, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's one for all the local community. A film screening with a bit of dressing up for just *£15 each* - but then you do get a 'bean bag' seat for extra wackiness.
> Fifteen fucking quid.
> Block Party Cinema presents Dope Pop Brixton London | DesignMyNight


Actually there is a choice of Blocks in Brixton.
This lot do free stuff - though I daresay when they do charge for drinks for fundraising purposes at functions it's not above the norm.
Their showing of Firewalk with Me last year was free for the film - charge for the drinks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 8, 2016)

editor said:


> Here's one for all the local community. A film screening with a bit of dressing up for just *£15 each* - but then you do get a 'bean bag' seat for extra wackiness.
> Fifteen fucking quid.
> 
> Block Party Cinema presents Dope Pop Brixton London | DesignMyNight



If I was sat on a beanbag for a couple of hours, I'd need the £15 for cab fare to Kings A & E for valium and morphine cocktail to relieve back spasms.
I can think of more *satisfying* ways of spending £15 in order to end up in pain!


----------



## leanderman (Jun 9, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Which is what was outlined in the initial grow:brixton proposal.



As says the article Winot found about EBS:

_the team are proposing a landscaped cultural hub where people can acquire new skills such as horticulture, cooking, building and music, with shipping containers for restaurants and shops._


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 9, 2016)

newbie said:


> Different concepts, with different budgets.  A commercial venture with a lot of infrastructure implies a lot more capital than people growing lettuces.


I thought that the original grow concept before the split already involved multi story shipping containers and commercial units like shops and restuarants and offices and a big stage area too? 

edit - OK someone else has already answered that!


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

My point was a lot more capital, not no capital.

This is the drawing in the Buzz article





There's a lot of open space which has been filled up in what has actually been built, ie Pop has more infrastructure, requiring more capital.  Or have I misunderstood?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 9, 2016)

The existing Pop does have more infrastructure than in that illustration, but not loads more. 

If I were to guess the extra capital to build what's built compared to that, it might be 10 or 15% extra.


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

As little as that?  fair enough, I wouldn't pretend to know.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 9, 2016)

newbie said:


> As little as that?  fair enough, I wouldn't pretend to know.


Well, a large chunk of the costs is putting in all the supporting infrastucture - drainage, plumbing, foundations, power etc. And all the overheads of operating a building site for X months... machinery, labour, access, site management etc.
Once you've established all that, adding a few extra shipping containers would become a marginal extra cost, to some extent.


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 9, 2016)

One of the biggest differences it looks to me is that they do not seems to have planted on the roof spaces which is a shame - it would make a big difference I think. In the winter I noticed a couple of the units had leaking roofs (leaking steel boxes - go figure!). I wonder if that has anything to do with why the roofs have not been planted?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 9, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> One of the biggest differences it looks to me is that they do not seems to have planted on the roof spaces which is a shame - it would make a big difference I think. In the winter I noticed a couple of the units had leaking roofs (leaking steel boxes - go figure!). I wonder if that has anything to do with why the roofs have not been planted?


Probably got quite a lot to do with the fact that on a birds-eye view drawing you can see all the roof surfaces but in real life you can't.


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 9, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Probably got quite a lot to do with the fact that on a birds-eye view drawing you can see all the roof surfaces but in real life you can't.


Yes but theyve not planted them up anyway i dont think.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> Yes but theyve not planted them up anyway i dont think.



The promise:







The reality:


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2016)

editor said:


> The promise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those two green things that pass for trees are sort of in the right place....


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Those two green things that pass for trees are sort of in the right place....


That's actually an older shot - most of the space is now taken over by benches and tables for DRINKING pricey beer rather than the odd chairs and tables scattered around in the original view. And of course, bicycles aren't allowed. 

Here's a recent pic.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2016)

"Pop Brixton was created to become a positive asset for the local community. Our objectives are to champion local enterprise, inspire creativity and help the local community by providing space, support and time."


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> "Pop Brixton was created to become a positive asset for the local community. Our objectives are to champion local enterprise, inspire creativity and help the local community by providing space, support and time."


I was talking to the people from the EBS last night. Very interesting discussion. They're good people who had a lot to offer the community, but instead we got The Collective Shoreditch property developers to be partners. No need to consult with anyone in the community about that decision either, naturally.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2016)

editor said:


> I was talking to the people from the EBS last night. Very interesting discussion. They're good people who had a lot to offer the community, but instead we got The Collective Shoreditch property developers to be partners. No need to consult with anyone in the community about that decision either, naturally.



That quote is taken directly off the Pop website....


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 9, 2016)

editor said:


> The promise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They accurately predicted everyone would be white


----------



## leanderman (Jun 9, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> I thought that the original grow concept before the split already involved multi story shipping containers and commercial units like shops and restuarants and offices and a big stage area too?
> 
> edit - OK someone else has already answered that!



Yep. The current set-up is very much as envisaged in that article about Edible Bus Stop.

Shops and restaurants around a hub where people can learn skills such as music (covered by Reprezent youth radio), cooking (the restaurants again) and construction (apprentices were used in the set-up).

The question is whether or not there is enough horticulture.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> That quote is taken directly off the Pop website....


I'm struggling to see what your point is. We were promised a very different project to what we have got. I feel cheated because I enthusiastically supported the original project and perhaps helped in some very small way to it getting planning permission.

Even though some people here seem strangely unable to see the obvious differences from what was promised and what we got, there is no fucking way on earth I would have endorsed a project that involved people like The Collective getting their paws on the place.

It was supposed to be for "all the community" but in fact it's mainly targeted at the slimmest, slenderest demographic you could imagine.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Yep. The current set-up is very much as envisaged in that article about Edible Bus Stop.


I was talking to them last night and can tell you with absolute authority that you are talking utter bollocks. Have you spoken to them yourself? Did you go to the open day before work started on the site?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 9, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> Yes but theyve not planted them up anyway i dont think.


I know. What I mean is it makes the drawing look nice but in reality it would be a bit of a waste of time (there are benefits to green roofs other than visual ones but they don't really make sense on a steel shipping container in a temporary installation). Better to put the greenery at ground level where people can see it.


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 9, 2016)

They do free gardening lessons twice a week. I have not been though as I am lucky enough to have my own garden. If the roof was covered with plants I think it would make a huge difference to this picture. I wish they would do that. That is wehere most of the green was in the pictures. I like the way they can move everything around.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 9, 2016)

Anyway, the important thing is that we keep on developing the sophistication of the discussion on this thread by basing arguments on sunny sketchy promo images of the proposal and rainy-day photos of the built version rather than the objective detail of the original proposal and a full overview of what's there now.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 9, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> They do free gardening lessons twice a week. I have not been though as I am lucky enough to have my own garden. If the roof was covered with plants I think it would make a huge difference to this picture. I wish they would do that. That is wehere most of the green was in the pictures. I like the way they can move everything around.


You're right, it probably would look good on those stepped ones, the lower ones at least.


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 9, 2016)

teuchter said:


> You're right, it probably would look good on those stepped ones, the lower ones at least.


Yes! - and that was one of the leaky roofs!! (The bar). But it would be much better.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> They do free gardening lessons twice a week.


Not quite on a par with  the "series of polytunnels housing a kitchen and eating area while creating a space for growing plants and vegetables" that was promised.











"Grow: Brixton bid aims to, “bring together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing."

.. should be..

Pop Brixton aims to bring together the local residents of Brixton through drinking expensive beer and dancing to DJs and paying through the nose for a corporate cinema and unaffordable feasts"


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 9, 2016)

editor said:


> Not quite on a par with  the "series of polytunnels housing a kitchen and eating area while creating a space for growing plants and vegetables" that was promised.



That polytunnel looks to me like it is full of benches and tables. Not identical but no tthat much difference to what is built I don't think.  I thought it was always supposed to be like a dining area with plants planted in the sides no?


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> That polytunnel looks to me like it is full of benches and tables. Not identical but no tthat much difference to what is built I don't think.  I thought it was always supposed to be like a dining area with plants planted in the sides no?


They stuck a load of commercial units underneath it so shifted it up a floor, and then stuck a walkway through the centre of it, so it bares scant resemblance to the original spacious ground level plan. It's now just a drinking/eating area with some plants shoved on the side.


----------



## Ms T (Jun 9, 2016)

Zoe from Zoe's Ghana Kitchen is in The Guardian today.
Ghanaian generosity in a plate of spicy prawns and corn with baobab butter  | Zoe Adjonyoh


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 9, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm struggling to see what your point is.



My point is that they are really not what they say they are....the same as your point...


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> My point is that they are really not what they say they are....the same as your point...


On that we shall most definitely agree!


----------



## discobastard (Jun 9, 2016)

editor said:


> Not quite on a par with  the "series of polytunnels housing a kitchen and eating area while creating a space for growing plants and vegetables" that was promised





Completely fair point about the amount of greenery and polytunnels.  But when you look at some of these early concept sketches you have to kind of question the veracity of the scene they had in mind.  I suspect it might have been an over-enthusiastic intern.

Here we have two guys, with a door or somesuch balanced on a non-stable base, using powertools without the requisite safety guards in the middle of a public walkway next to some young ladies eating their lunch.  From a Health and Safety point of view, that scenario is not cleared to land.

‘Dave, I need to take a quarter inch off this door, can you give me a hand?’
‘Sure, shall I come round the workshop?’
‘Nah, let’s go down that place in Brixton with all them plants and trendy food and do it there – there’s loads of space.  It’s a nice day for it.’
‘Disco.’
...
‘It’s a hell of a wobbly on this gravel Gary, have you not got the other leg?  And there’s kids around and that.’
‘Don’t be soft, just hold on to it tight.  Oh and Dave, watch your fing...’
‘Arrrggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!’
Etc.


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## wurlycurly (Jun 9, 2016)

discobastard said:


> View attachment 88267
> 
> Completely fair point about the amount of greenery and polytunnels.  But when you look at some of these early concept sketches you have to kind of question the veracity of the scene they had in mind.  I suspect it might have been an over-enthusiastic intern.
> 
> ...



I think you're misinterpreting the picture. Guy on the right of the table has clearly been on the lash for eight hours.


----------



## discobastard (Jun 9, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> I think you're misinterpreting the picture. Guy on the right of the table has clearly been on the lash for eight hours.


Is that not a jig-saw?  Guess it could be a stein of WKD blue now you mention it.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jun 9, 2016)

discobastard said:


> View attachment 88267
> 
> Completely fair point about the amount of greenery and polytunnels.  But when you look at some of these early concept sketches you have to kind of question the veracity of the scene they had in mind.  I suspect it might have been an over-enthusiastic intern.
> 
> ...


----------



## Harbourite (Jun 9, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> I think you're misinterpreting the picture. Guy on the right of the table has clearly been on the lash for eight hours.


looks like he's inhaling a little pick-me-up powder to get going again


----------



## snowy_again (Jun 10, 2016)

Bloke on the left is recovering from his last bump of k at Pop Brixton!'s latest community venture _Spiral Tribe Silent Disco_.


----------



## 299 old timer (Jun 10, 2016)

Just a thought - they could get a local primary school to send the kids down armed with paint and paintbrushes to paint nice images of butterflies and flowers on that horrid chipboard - big it up as a local community initiative or something...


----------



## Winot (Jun 10, 2016)

299 old timer said:


> Just a thought - they could get a local primary school to send the kids down armed with paint and paintbrushes to paint nice images of butterflies and flowers on that horrid chipboard - big it up as a local community initiative or something...



They have had primary school art exhibitions there.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 10, 2016)

Winot said:


> They have had primary school art exhibitions there.



Yep. All my kids have had art on show there.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 10, 2016)

Fans of Carl Turner on here will no doubt be interested to find out what other pies he has his fingers in.
This was tweeted by a dissident group in Southwark.
Maybe we should apply for a community grant to pay the £358.80 per delegate to see what's going down (or should I say coming down)


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2016)

So the Canterbury is flattened and replaced with this:


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope it pisses down with rain...


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Hope it pisses down with rain...


I'm going to take a look now. I think I'll need to take a deep breath before I go in.


----------



## editor (Jun 10, 2016)

Bumped into the MD of Pop there and had a chat. Nice bloke.


----------



## T & P (Jun 10, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm going to take a look now. I think I'll need to take a deep breath before I go in.


It looks cheesy and bland as fuck. I'd much rather watch in a big pub garden like The Duke of Edinburgh's.


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 11, 2016)

editor said:


> They stuck a load of commercial units underneath it so shifted it up a floor, and then stuck a walkway through the centre of it, so it bares scant resemblance to the original spacious ground level plan. It's now just a drinking/eating area with some plants shoved on the side.


Oh i see what you mean.  Im not sure it look slike the use is all that different. Still lots of seats and tables with planters at sides. Hopefully they're climbing plants will grow over like in the pictures making it much greener. i suppose that takes time. Are they hops? The main thing missing compared to there original picture is the catering area but then they have extra catering units underneath so i dont think thats such a big deal. It is a shame the sitting areas are long and thin but I can see why the ramp was a good idea. I imagine the other design would also have been full of people drinking in the evenings too. people sure do like drinking!


----------



## leanderman (Jun 11, 2016)

Pop Fields is pretty good for watching football in terms of screen, bars and loos. 

Caught a few minutes of WAL-SLO. 

Many of those I took to be Claphamites were not, judging by their accents.


----------



## T & P (Jun 11, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Pop Fields is pretty good for watching football in terms of screen, bars and loos.
> 
> Caught a few minutes of WAL-SLO.
> 
> Many of those I took to be Claphamites were not, judging by their accents.


We're people sitting or standing? The image upthread of a load of folding chairs would suggest they'd expect people to sit down like if watching a film.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 12, 2016)

T & P said:


> We're people sitting or standing? The image upthread of a load of folding chairs would suggest they'd expect people to sit down like if watching a film.



Half and half.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 12, 2016)

Football and other sports screenings have an even worse exclusionary effect on Brixton's pubs than gentrification or gastrofication do.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 12, 2016)

leanderman said:


> Half and half.



Its a game of two halves after all


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 13, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> From what I have understood even through meditation the archictect didnt really budge his position throughout, Bus top never suggested they could carry on without him and they eventually did resign – maybe because they felt they could not manage the project without him - or maybe they could not convince the council that they could do it without him.
> 
> FWIW impossible to know but I dont think the archictect was bluffing either. The relationship looks like it was too one sided and he did not have to bluff. Apart from money he had much more experience of building. Anyway we are speculating and i doubt the archictect or Bus Stop people will come on here to clear it up for us. Its too scary!



I notice your user name contains Pop is there any connection with Turners Pop?

My reading of what Jasons article reports and what EBS say is different from yours.

Can you clear this up? You say in your post you are speculating. But also say that that Turner had much more experience of "building". Is that your speculation as well?

BTW a bluff is a bluff. Turner didn’t carry out his threat.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 13, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Football and other sports screenings have an even worse exclusionary effect on Brixton's pubs than gentrification or gastrofication do.



Having a chat with an unnamed community activist a few days ago.

He has seen the "Fields" and said Pop will rake it in from the two bars. (If weather holds up) and that the "community" use in daytime ( when its not going to be used much anyway for more profitable endeavours ) is just a sop to the local community.

After a few pints at the Beehive with CH1 on Saturday we had a look at Pop Fields. Despite the slightly inclement weather it was already packed. Good businessmen run Pop. The community bit is just PR.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> But also say that that Turner had much more experience of "building". Is that your speculation as well?



It's pretty obvious if you look at Turner's completed projects compared to EBS's.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> It's pretty obvious if you look at Turner's completed projects compared to EBS's.



And if its the case that Turner had more building experience the question for me is why did Turner go into an equal partnership with two people from EBS initially? And suddenly decide to change his mind after the planning permission was obtained.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> And if its the case that Turner had more building experience the question for me is why did Turner go into an equal partnership with two people from EBS initially? And suddenly decide to change his mind after the planning permission was obtained.


I expect for complicated reasons we'll never know.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jun 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> And if its the case that Turner had more building experience the question for me is why did Turner go into an equal partnership with two people from EBS initially? And suddenly decide to change his mind after the planning permission was obtained.



If you want to take something all for yourself, then better to be sharing it first, than just nicking it outright....


----------



## Pop Tart (Jun 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I notice your user name contains Pop is there any connection with Turners Pop?
> 
> My reading of what Jasons article reports and what EBS say is different from yours.
> 
> ...


I ws going to say no their is no connection but actually pop was the hot topic when I signed up last year so maybe that influenced my name choice!

the archictect didnt have to resign because he got what he wanted when they bus stop lot resigned. You obviously think that if they had not resigned he would have carried on working with them - in which case yes he would have been bluffing. It doesn't sound to me like he would have kept working with them as partners, in which case he was not bluffing but i guess well never know!

i dont really understand your question about the archictects experience. he is an award winning archictect who has also worked as a developer.  whats to speculate about? do you doubt his experience or saying that the bus stop people have similar experience?


----------



## T & P (Jun 14, 2016)

Interesting article on Pop Brixton's first year by Brixton Blog: Pop Brixton’s first year - Brixton Blog



I found this stat noteworthy, not least because I thought the percentage would be higher...



> The food and drink space in Pop Brixton is less than 35% of our footprint. When we opened last year, the ground and first floors were predominantly made up of retail and food and drink businesses – the perception has stuck.


----------



## brixtonblade (Jun 14, 2016)

T & P said:


> Interesting article on Pop Brixton's first year by Brixton Blog: Pop Brixton’s first year - Brixton Blog
> 
> 
> 
> I found this stat noteworthy, not least because I thought the percentage would be higher...


Is that the footprint of the areas selling food and drink or does it include all the spaces for people to sit whilst they eat and drink?


----------



## T & P (Jun 14, 2016)

brixtonblade said:


> Is that the footprint of the areas selling food and drink or does it include all the spaces for people to sit whilst they eat and drink?


As I understood it, it is the footprint of the entire site. But I'm only quoting the article so no idea if accurate.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

T & P said:


> Interesting article on Pop Brixton's first year by Brixton Blog: Pop Brixton’s first year - Brixton Blog



Not an "exclusive"


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 14, 2016)

Pop Tart said:


> the archictect didnt have to resign because he got what he wanted when they bus stop lot resigned. You obviously think that if they had not resigned he would have carried on working with them - in which case yes he would have been bluffing. It doesn't sound to me like he would have kept working with them as partners, in which case he was not bluffing but i guess well never know!



I have already explained the timeline in the article. He didn’t carry out his threat. 

EBS resigned later on after trying to soldier on.


----------



## leanderman (Jun 23, 2016)

Free stuff:


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 26, 2016)

More free stuff: Glastonbury (or almost)






Glastonbury on the big screen, live djs, face painting, flower crowns etc. Some kind of mini free festival.

Was on today but only just found out 

Looks like Pop does a free music event each Friday. Is that a new thing?


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2016)

Full bag searches for anyone wanting to enjoy the green community oasis today. #nothanks


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 27, 2016)

100% of proceeds go to the charity. Get buying

Free entry 2nd July 1100-1600

www.acornoverseas.org


----------



## T & P (Jun 28, 2016)

editor said:


> Full bag searches for anyone wanting to enjoy the green community oasis today. #nothanks


A sad sign of the times we live in, and common enough across countless other venues that get busy.

If you are really trying to spin such security measures into a stick to beat Pop Brixton with... well, be my guest.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> A sad sign of the times we live in, and common enough across countless other venues that get busy.
> 
> If you are really trying to spin such security measures into a stick to beat Pop Brixton with... well, be my guest.


I believe its valid to note how Pop's own commercial interests are guaranteeing that what was supposed to be a green oasis for the community has turned into another privatised space, watched over by security guards who can forbid you from entering unless you agree to let them rifle through the contents of your bag.

I'm struggling to think of any nearby 'public space' - or even any local pub, come to think of it - that hires two security guards on the door to search every person coming in at 6.30pm on a Monday. But I guess I shouldn't complain about it for fear of being accused of just being beastly to Pop Brixton, eh?


----------



## T & P (Jun 28, 2016)

editor said:


> I believe its valid to note how Pop's own commercial interests are guaranteeing that what was supposed to be a green oasis for the community has turned into another privatised space, watched over by security guards who can forbid you from entering unless you agree to let them rifle through the contents of your bag.
> 
> I'm struggling to think of any nearby 'public space' - or even any local pub, come to think of it - that hires two security guards on the door to search every person coming in at 6.30pm on a Monday. But I guess I shouldn't complain about it for fear of being accused of just being beastly to Pop Brixton, eh?


Pop Brixton will have a much higher concentration of 'bodies' (to put it bluntly and from a bomber's point of view) than other types of open spaces such as commons and parks. It is _exactly_ the kind of place that would rank on the top of the list of any would-be terrorist. Just as football fan zones are. To try to berate the venue for trying to keep people safe seems extraordinary to me.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> Pop Brixton will have a much higher concentration of 'bodies' (to put it bluntly and from a bomber's point of view) than other types of open spaces such as commons and parks. It is _exactly_ the kind of place that would rank on the top of the list of any would-be terrorist. Just as football fan zones are. To try to berate the venue for trying to keep people safe seems extraordinary to me.


Oh, it's because of _terrorism_ now is it? Really? Oh hahahaha. Now that is truly fucking priceless.

So how come far, far busier places in Brixton (e.g. the tube) aren't being subjected to private security guard searches at 6pm then? Any idea?


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## T & P (Jun 28, 2016)

The tube is not regularly subject to bag searches, even if it has ever been once in its entire history. It's just not practical or realistically doable at all if you want to have a running Underground.

What makes you think it is so unlikely that a place like Pop might be targeted? Because London is not on the wish list of terrorist organisations abroad or a potential target for radicalised individuals here. Oh, not at all. Complete over-reaction by Pop Brixton. How very dare they.


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## Mr Retro (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> Pop Brixton will have a much higher concentration of 'bodies' (to put it bluntly and from a bomber's point of view) than other types of open spaces such as commons and parks. It is _exactly_ the kind of place that would rank on the top of the list of any would-be terrorist. Just as football fan zones are. To try to berate the venue for trying to keep people safe seems extraordinary to me.


Agree with this unfortunately. What a fuckng world it is at the moment.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 28, 2016)

If Pop Brixton were targeted by terrorists a couple of goons searching bags isn't going to stop it. How's that going to work, they're going to stand in the queue then let their weapons be taken away?


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## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> The tube is not regularly subject to bag searches, even if it has ever been once in its entire history. It's just not practical or realistically doable at all if you want to have a running Underground.


Er, you don't know your Brixton history. There has been bag searches, metal detectors and even sub-machine toting police officers at Brixton tube. 


T & P said:


> What makes you think it is so unlikely that a place like Pop might be targeted? Because London is not on the wish list of terrorist organisations abroad or a potential target for radicalised individuals here. Oh, not at all. Complete over-reaction by Pop Brixton. How very dare they.


Pop Brixton is generally pretty empty at 6pm so even if highly confused terrorists decided to put the community green oasis on their hitlist, it wouldn't be much of a hit.


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## wurlycurly (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> Pop Brixton will have a much higher concentration of 'bodies' (to put it bluntly and from a bomber's point of view) than other types of open spaces such as commons and parks. It is _exactly_ the kind of place that would rank on the top of the list of any would-be terrorist. Just as football fan zones are. To try to berate the venue for trying to keep people safe seems extraordinary to me.


Get a grip. The only bombs they're searching for is Jagerbombs.


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## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> Get a grip. The only bombs they're searching for is Jagerbombs.


The notion that Pop Brixton would "rank on the top of the list of any would-be terrorist," really is utterly bonkers.


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## T & P (Jun 28, 2016)

editor said:


> The notion that Pop Brixton would "rank on the top of the list of any would-be terrorist," really is utterly bonkers.


Tell that to the various small cafes in Paris or non-descript suburb supermarkets that got visited by various murdering nutjobs over the course of the last year.

You know exactly what I meant anyway. For any fuckwit deciding to go postal in Brixton, the likes of Pop Brixton would be a very obvious target. And in any case such searches are not just about high-profile terrorism, of course, but everyday security, the like of which takes place at countless other venues. But by all means do continue telling yourself the only purpose of bag searches in Pop Brixton is to antagonise customers, or whichever other bizarre conspiracy theory reason you might think is behind it.


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## wurlycurly (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> Tell that to the various small cafes in Paris or non-descript suburb supermarkets that got visited by various murdering nutjobs over the course of the last year.
> 
> You know exactly what I meant anyway. For any fuckwit deciding to go postal in Brixton, the likes of Pop Brixton would be a very obvious target. And in any case such searches are not just about high-profile terrorism, of course, but everyday security, the like of which takes place at countless other venues. But by all means do continue telling yourself the only purpose of bag searches in Pop Brixton is to antagonise customers, or whichever other bizarre conspiracy theory reason you might think is behind it.



This is precisely the absurd train of thought that led us into the Brexit debacle.


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## stethoscope (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> You know exactly what I meant anyway. For any fuckwit deciding to go postal in Brixton, the likes of Pop Brixton would be a very obvious target.



Make it an open public space then, rather than a private enclosed yard of steel containers (they're not 'edgy and street', they look shit because they're for industrial use) with added bouncers.


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## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

T & P said:


> You know exactly what I meant anyway. For any fuckwit deciding to go postal in Brixton, the likes of Pop Brixton would be a very obvious target.


You've dreamt up the most ludicrous - some may even say embarrassing - excuse for Pop Brixton yet.

If it was to prevent some supposed imminent terrorist threat, why aren't anti-terrorism police there? By your paranoid reasoning, bag searches by low paid security staff should be the norm almost everywhere because if you think the often near-empty Pop Brixton would "rank on the top of the list of any would-be terrorist," then just about _everywhere _in London should be battening down for fear of attack.


T & P said:


> But by all means do continue telling yourself the only purpose of bag searches in Pop Brixton is to antagonise customers, or whichever other bizarre conspiracy theory reason you might think is behind it.


The reason for the bag searches is blindingly obvious to anyone not frozen with fear about non-existent terrorist threats to inconsequential beer gardens. No conspiracy needed.


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## editor (Jun 28, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Make it an open public space then, rather than a private enclosed yard of steel containers (they're not 'edgy and street', they look shit because they're for industrial use) with added bouncers.


Problem solved. A real public square for the community to use.


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## Winot (Jun 29, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> This is precisely the absurd train of thought that led us into the Brexit debacle.



So Pop *is* responsible for Brexit. I thought as much.


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## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

Winot said:


> So Pop *is* responsible for Brexit. I thought as much.


No, it ranks *on the top of the list* of any would-be terrorist, it's that important. It's the most obvious target in Brixton. Apparently.


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## Rushy (Jun 29, 2016)

Any self respecting terrorist would surely choose somewhere better known. Like that corner outside Iceland supermarket where they stack the trollies.


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## twistedAM (Jun 29, 2016)

After the other night Iceland is indeed much better known than Brixton never mind Pop.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 29, 2016)

They are likely searching bags for food and drink first. Weapons of mass destruction second. Immigrants third.


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## Rushy (Jun 29, 2016)

Three searches does sound a little excessive.


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## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> They are likely searching bags for food and drink first. Weapons of mass destruction second. Immigrants third.


#topofterroristlist


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## SpamMisery (Jun 29, 2016)

If people who dont like bag searches dont go because they dont like bag searches, I'd say thats job done. They're exactly the ones I dont want to be sharing a public space with.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 29, 2016)

Who likes bag searches?


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2016)

The fact that there are bag searches absolutely undermines claims that Pop is operating as a genuine public space. It's completely valid to object to it.

And I certainly don't think it can be justified by worries about "terrorism".


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Who likes bag searches?


Bar owners, and people terrified of terrorism lurking on every corner.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 29, 2016)

Tourism is lurking on every corner


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## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Who likes bag searches?


No one, unless there's a very, very good reason for them. It certainly stopped me going in to the place. I don't want some fucker rifling through my personal stuff just so I can access what is supposed to be a "public" space.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 29, 2016)

Electric Brixton has the most thorough and intrusive searches of any venue I have been in for 30 years.


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## teuchter (Jun 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Electric Brixton has the most thorough and intrusive searches of any venue I have been in for 30 years.


To me, the most intrusive measure is having to provide ID and also have it scanned (414?)


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## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Electric Brixton has the most thorough and intrusive searches of any venue I have been in for 30 years.


There's several Brixton venues that have been compelled to insist on Photo ID scans for entry - and I really don't like that at all - but the Electric is the only one I know that makes you empty your pockets out into airport-style plastic trays. It's completely over the top and a real buzzkill.


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## T & P (Jun 29, 2016)

editor said:


> No, it ranks *on the top of the list* of any would-be terrorist, it's that important. It's the most obvious target in Brixton. Apparently.





editor said:


> #topofterroristlist



I'm glad you have latched onto something that gives you so much joy, and hope it continues to provide you with plenty of happiness for the weeks and months to come


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## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

T & P said:


> I'm glad you have latched onto something that gives you so much joy, and hope it continues to provide you with plenty of happiness for the weeks and months to come


OK, let's take your daft claim seriously. If it is such a number one terrorist target, how come they don't search bags when it's far busier on some evening events?

And your evidence-untroubled scaremongering doesn't give me pleasure. I find it quite depressing that people like you are so fearful of terrorism that you think that nondescript places like Pop Brixton should be considered major targets.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 29, 2016)

teuchter said:


> To me, the most intrusive measure is having to provide ID and also have it scanned (414?)



Lots of venues are being made to do that. It is intrusive, I don't disagree.

Electric is not being told by any authority to make people empty all their pockets/bags on to a tray before entry. It's a decision they have made.

I work in venues that are dictated to by Lambeth about how they search and what they search for, and I have to have my record bag searched at times. It pisses me off. But The Electric is well over the top, and it  is their choice.


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## editor (Jun 29, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Lots of venues are being made to do that. It is intrusive, I don't disagree.
> 
> Electric is not being told by any authority to make people empty all their pockets/bags on to a tray before entry. It's a decision they have made.
> 
> I work in venues that are dictated to by Lambeth about how they search and what they search for, and I have to have my record bag searched at times. It pisses me off. But The Electric is well over the top, and it  is their choice.


Some venues - like Phonox - have _elected_ to insist on Photo ID scans and it sucks.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jun 29, 2016)

editor said:


> Some venues - like Phonox - have _elected_ to insist on Photo ID scans and it sucks.



I'm sure this is a pro-active measure knowing in time they will have to buy the kit and install it etc.....so do it now as part of a new build/fit out...

Sucks? yeah...but if I was opening a  new club it makes some sense to install this shit now rather than retro fit it later..

...obviously they don't have to use it from the get go


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## editor (Jul 7, 2016)

If anyone is hankering for some torched mackerel with puffed brown rice, cucumber pickle and gooseberry chutney dish alongside a glass of Chardonnay from boutique Martinborough producer Colombo Wines and has £35 to spare, get down to the green community oasis next Saturday.  





> * ‘Into the Vine’ a one day wine festival launching in Brixton this July
> ‘Open your mind & your palate. Discover the most intriguing wines & producers of the New World’*
> 
> Antipodean wine specialists, The New Zealand Cellar are throwing a one-day wine festival at street-food hub Pop Brixton this July. _Into the Vine_ is a wine celebration like no other. Headlined bywine heroes such as Joe Wadsack and Jane Parkinson, the festival will feature a day packed with crash courses (including one named ‘Bubble baths for fans of fizz’), DJ’s, blind tastings, mini master classes from wine gurus, food from Pop Brixton’s impressive roster of traders and of course the chance to try some of _Aotearoa’s_ most impressive wines.
> ...


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## Reiabuzz (Jul 7, 2016)

I assume there's about 5 bottles of plonk thrown in for that?


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## Hoss (Jul 7, 2016)

If the £35 includes lunch from the stalls mentioned as well as paired wines and tastings, then £35 seems very good value.


.


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## pesh (Jul 7, 2016)

I went in there for the first time this afternoon.
Fuck me it's awful.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jul 24, 2016)

pesh said:


> I went in there for the first time this afternoon.
> Fuck me it's awful.



I took a friend yesterday. It was heaving, there was a sort of 'party' going on, cue worn out tracks to a posh afternoon crowd. As my friend said, Brixton is now a 'destination.' The bubble wrap enclosure had the effect of bouncing 2 sets of music around into a disturbing stereo. We left quickly. The German beer shop isn't bad but then it's just an offshoot from Fulham. Hardly 'local' enterprise then?


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## Ms T (Jul 24, 2016)

I got a brochure from Pop Brixton through the door the other day.  It said that 70 per cent of businesses there are run by local people.


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## Nanker Phelge (Jul 24, 2016)

Ms T said:


> I got a brochure from Pop Brixton through the door the other day.  It said that 70 per cent of businesses there are run by local people.


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## editor (Jul 24, 2016)

Ms T said:


> I got a brochure from Pop Brixton through the door the other day.  It said that 70 per cent of businesses there are run by local people.


They have a particularly elastic definition of 'local' and it might be  interesting to look at just how long these local businesses have actually been around.


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## teuchter (Jul 31, 2016)

Read this

What Owen Smith's Attempt at Being 'Normal' Tells Us About the State of Politics | VICE | United Kingdom

and thought of this thread. Well, the whole Brixton Forum really.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 1, 2016)

Don’t Be A Tourist! 9 Places Only Hardcore Londoners Know About

Pop Brixton in a list of 'secret places only hardcore Londoners know about.'


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## T & P (Aug 1, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Don’t Be A Tourist! 9 Places Only Hardcore Londoners Know About
> 
> Pop Brixton in a list of 'secret places only hardcore Londoners know about.'


Whereas the 'hardcore Londoners' expression is rather silly, I don't think the claim is completely untrue. Despite the all-consuming obsession this forum has with the place, it is not nearly as well known outside of Brixton by ordinary peeps. A few press luvvies yes, but that's about it, IME at least.


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## teuchter (Aug 1, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Don’t Be A Tourist! 9 Places Only Hardcore Londoners Know About
> 
> Pop Brixton in a list of 'secret places only hardcore Londoners know about.'


The whole article is a parody, right?


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 1, 2016)

9 places to avoid if you wanna steer clear of cunts


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## Rushy (Aug 1, 2016)

Indeed, Pop is so very secret that they had to use a photo of Brixton Village instead. The author clearly has their finger firmly on London's pulse.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2016)

T & P said:


> Whereas the 'hardcore Londoners' expression is rather silly, I don't think the claim is completely untrue. Despite the all-consuming obsession this forum has with the place, it is not nearly as well known outside of Brixton by ordinary peeps. A few press luvvies yes, but that's about it, IME at least.


I thought it was so popular that it was 'top of the list' for any prospective terrorist?  

And this claim that only a 'few press luvvies' know about it seems equally bizarre. It's had shitloads of press coverage from Time Out to the BBC to international flight magazines.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Don’t Be A Tourist! 9 Places Only Hardcore Londoners Know About
> 
> Pop Brixton in a list of 'secret places only hardcore Londoners know about.'


This is quite the biggest pile of stinking shite I've read in a while. 

Interesting to note that the Pop 'review' makes zero reference to its supposed horticultural/community qualities: just the usual on-trend waffle about foodie joints, cocktails and live events.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 1, 2016)

editor said:


> This is quite the biggest pile of stinking shite I've read in a while.
> 
> Interesting to note that the Pop 'review' makes zero reference to its supposed horticultural/community qualities: just the usual on-trend waffle about foodie joints, cocktails and live events.



But you can listen to 'Love Music'

Whatever the fuck that is.

Is it like jizz tea


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## T & P (Aug 1, 2016)

editor said:


> I thought it was so popular that it was 'top of the list' for any prospective terrorist?


 Not any terrorist- one who was local to the area and/ or planned to bomb a place in Brixton.

Brixton is no stranger to terrorism. But if you think the idea is so far fetched, please continue to have a laugh about it.



> And this claim that only a 'few press luvvies' know about it seems equally bizarre. It's had shitloads of press coverage from Time Out to the BBC to international flight magazines.


 And yet of all the people from London I've spoken with (face to face in the real world) about Brixton, not a single one of them had heard of Pop.

Perhaps your own experience radically differs from mine.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2016)

T & P said:


> And yet of all the people from London I've spoken with (face to face in the real world) about Brixton, not a single one of them had heard of Pop.
> 
> Perhaps your own experience radically differs from mine.


I'm not talking about my experiences, I'm dealing in facts: and these are that far from being something that only a ''few press luvvies' know about, Pop has enjoyed substantial media coverage (some of it international), and it is something of a substantial tourist attraction for Brixton.

Even Qantas and Easyjet airlines have featured the place and there's no less than 32 user reviews on Time Out's site, so it's hardly some sort of secret foodie hangout for these mysterious "press luvvies".


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## teuchter (Aug 1, 2016)

The article is terrible but Pop Brixton is hardly something that most visitors to London will have heard about. They know about Madame Tussaud's and Hyde Park and Leicester Square and Covent Garden market and Camden market and Big Ben and Soho and Notting Hill. Brixton is now becoming a tourist destination - but for the time being not really a mainstream destination and its draw is its history and a general notion that it's "up and coming" and somewhere with trendy bars etc. I don't think many people have heard of Pop Brixton specifically.

An anecdotal account to draw some wildly unreliable conclusions from: I was in there last weekend with a few people (first time I've been in there to eat actually) - two from North London who hadn't heard of it before (their comment: it was "quite fun"), one who until very recently lived in SE London who hadn't heard of it (their comment: "There's something like this everywhere in London nowisn't there") and one from the english midlands who certainly hadn't heard of it and why would they have.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2016)

Conde Nast traveller approved too!

This Weekend in London: Pop Brixton, London's Next Go-To Spot, Launches

It's obviously not up there with the major London tourist attractions, but it features in many London tourist guides - both national and international - and to claim that it's only known by a "few press luvvies" is clearly total fucking nonsense. 

Top 10: Things You Need to Eat at Pop Brixton
Pop Brixton (London, England): Top Tips Before You Go - TripAdvisor
8 Great London Food Markets

Etc etc etc


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## Rushy (Aug 1, 2016)

Qantas.


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## T & P (Aug 1, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm not talking about my experiences, I'm dealing in facts: and these are that far from being something that only a ''few press luvvies' know about, Pop has enjoyed substantial media coverage (some of it international), and it is something of a substantial tourist attraction for Brixton.
> 
> Even Quantas and Easyjet airlines have featured the place and there's no less than 32 user reviews on Time Out's site, so it's hardly some sort of secret foodie hangout for these mysterious "press luvvies".


And yet, not a single person I have met had ever heard of it.

Not everyone spends most of their lives online lapping up every last online review in town. In fact, a lot people who are not in the media/ PR industries will most likely be unaware of the existence of many of the blogs and online magazines that have published articles on Pop, let alone being regular readers of them.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2016)

T & P said:


> And yet, not a single person I have met had ever heard of it.
> 
> Not everyone spends most of their lives online lapping up every last online review in town. In fact, a lot people who are not in the media/ PR industries will most likely be unaware of the existence of many of the blogs and online magazines that have published articles on Pop, let alone being regular readers of them.


So you're actually still standing by your daft claim that no one but a "_few press luvvies_" outside of Brixton will have heard of Pop Brixton despite all its national and international press coverage and Nike takeovers? 

And you're saying that because some of your friends - who you've supposedly asked - say they haven't heard of it, so therefore no one else?

LOL. You really are quite a silly Billy.


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## T & P (Aug 1, 2016)

editor said:


> So you're actually still standing by your daft claim that no one but a "_few press luvvies_" outside of Brixton will have heard of Pop Brixton despite all its national and international press coverage and Nike takeovers?
> 
> And you're saying that because some of your friends - who you've supposedly asked - say they haven't heard of it, so therefore no one else?
> 
> LOL. You really are quite a silly Billy.



Yes, that is what I am saying- based on my own experience with real people in the real world I have "supposedly" asked.

Thank you for suggesting I've made it up, by the way- it's funny to see the moderator of these boards, who is forever claiming personal attacks are destroying the forum, to indulge in a bit of smearing himself.

You haven't expanded on your personal experience in the real world. Have you mentioned Pop Brixton face to face to many people who don't live in Brixton and have not recently visited, and who are not in the media or PR industries?

It might be an unfathomable concept to you, but there are lots of people out there who have a full life outside of the internet and don't rely on it for everything they do, and actually have fuck all time for blogs, online magazines and internet forums.


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## editor (Aug 1, 2016)

T & P said:


> It might be an unfathomable concept to you, but there are lots of people out there who have a full life outside of the internet and don't rely on it for everything they do, and actually have fuck all time for blogs, online magazines and internet forums.


I'm sure there are such people, but none of that helps you out on your ridiculous claim that just about no one in London or anywhere else has heard of the much written about Pop Brixton, save a few "media luvvies."

People travel into Brixton to visit the place FFS and it's featured in London's most popular online and print website/magazine and on the BBC.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 1, 2016)

Brixton. Tourist destination...


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## CH1 (Aug 2, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Don’t Be A Tourist! 9 Places Only Hardcore Londoners Know About
> 
> Pop Brixton in a list of 'secret places only hardcore Londoners know about.'


Re no 4 on the list we now hove our very own Rum Kitchen in Coldharbour Lane.
Anybody been? Any reviews yet?


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## editor (Aug 2, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Re no 4 on the list we now hove our very own Rum Kitchen in Coldharbour Lane.
> Anybody been? Any reviews yet?


Rum Kitchen review going up on Buzz later today...


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## editor (Aug 11, 2016)

£30 for a sodding breakfast.


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## discobastard (Aug 11, 2016)

editor said:


> £30 for a sodding breakfast.




What a crass idea. The ongoing infantilisation of society.

ETA: the price of the breakfast is the least worrying thing about this!  Just fucking dumb..

EATA: with 'bottomless' meaning that you only have 90 minutes.


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## The Boy (Aug 11, 2016)

discobastard said:


> EATA: with 'bottomless' meaning that you only have 90 minutes.



Tbf, I reckon I could drink over twenty quid*'s worth of cheap prosecco or Pimms in an hour and a half.  I assume the price includes someone to carry you home.

*deducting a tenner for food.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 11, 2016)

So it's a 90 minute drinking race to get some wealthy wankers pissed before lunchtime...loosely themed around Brexit (which they don't want discussed).

Ok.


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## twistedAM (Aug 11, 2016)

discobastard said:


> What a crass idea. The ongoing *infantilisation* of society.
> 
> ETA: the price of the breakfast is the least worrying thing about this!  Just fucking dumb..



Good word.


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## Manter (Aug 11, 2016)

Fundraiser for refugee community kitchen in Calais at POP Brixton this Saturday! The kitchen cooks more than 2,000 hot meals a day offsite and ferries them into the camp. They play a vital role in keeping refugees fed. Please come along and support and give as generously as you can


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## SpamMisery (Aug 12, 2016)

Looking a bit bloody green for my liking


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## alfajobrob (Aug 12, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Looking a bit bloody green for my liking



It's starting to take, but not enough green for my liking - where is the hemp?


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## Mr Retro (Aug 12, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Looking a bit bloody green for my liking


But it still doesn't have a big fork and spoon over the entrance. And no word of when they'll appear.


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## ringo (Aug 17, 2016)

Had lunch in Pop Brixton twice last week - great choice of food from all over the world and reasonably priced beer/wine. Both lunches were lovely, I was full for a fiver and then I got a decent haircut. Everyone was friendly and having a good time and it was a real pleasure to sit outside in a nice atmosphere surrounded by interesting people enjoying themselves. 

Very refreshing after reading the monotonous, repetitious negativity and moaning that goes on about it here.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2016)

ringo said:


> Everyone was friendly and having a good time and it was a real pleasure to sit outside in a nice atmosphere surrounded by interesting people enjoying themselves.


That's nice for you. Sounds like you found the perfect place for your tastes.


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## ringo (Aug 17, 2016)

editor said:


> That's nice for you. Sounds like you found the perfect place for your tastes.



Christ you're tedious


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2016)

ringo said:


> Christ you're tedious


That's not very nice. If Pop Brixton is the kind of place you like to hang out in, I'm genuinely happy for you. It might have been my mate who did your haircut, btw.


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## ringo (Aug 17, 2016)

editor said:


> That's not very nice. If Pop Brixton is the kind of place you like to hang out in, I'm genuinely happy for you. It might have been my mate who did your haircut, btw.


You weren't being sarcastic? Hmmm


----------



## ringo (Aug 17, 2016)

The demographic was nothing like that picture above. Complete mixture of people, just looked like Brixton.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2016)

ringo said:


> The demographic was nothing like that picture above. Complete mixture of people, just looked like Brixton.


That would make something of a change. Did it look anything like the mixture of people directly outside on Station Road?


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## ringo (Aug 17, 2016)

Yes. You're like a dog with a bone. Tedious.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2016)

ringo said:


> Yes. You're like a dog with a bone. Tedious.


Or you could just be a bit more honest.


----------



## ringo (Aug 17, 2016)

editor said:


> Or you could just be a bit more honest.


So you were being sarcastic and now you're accusing me of lying? Remind me again who's not being very nice?


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2016)

ringo said:


> So you were being sarcastic and now you're accusing me of lying? Remind me again who's not being very nice?


Do you really, really believe that the crowd in Pop Brixton is in any way truly representative of Brixton? Do you think, for example, it is representative of the people you'll find directly outside the venue?
A straight answer without a personal insult, would be nice.


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## ringo (Aug 17, 2016)

editor said:


> Do you really, really believe that the crowd in Pop Brixton is in any way truly representative of Brixton? Do you think, for example, it is representative of the people you'll find directly outside the venue?
> A straight answer without a personal insult, would be nice.


I've answered that and you accused me of lying. That's a hell of a chip you have on your shoulder, not interested in your constantly grinding axe, yawn.


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2016)

ringo said:


> I've answered that and you accused me of lying. That's a hell of a chip you have on your shoulder, not interested in your constantly grinding axe, yawn.


So no straight answer, but another personal insult.

I'll ask again: Do you really, really believe that the crowd in Pop Brixton is in any way truly representative of Brixton? Do you think, for example, it is representative of the people you'll find directly outside the venue?


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## Rushy (Aug 17, 2016)

ringo said:


> Had lunch in Pop Brixton twice last week - great choice of food from all over the world and reasonably priced beer/wine. Both lunches were lovely, I was full for a fiver and then I got a decent haircut. Everyone was friendly and having a good time and it was a real pleasure to sit outside in a nice atmosphere surrounded by interesting people enjoying themselves.
> .


What the fuck qualifies you to know about being friendly and having a good time? Or what makes for a nice atmosphere? Or even a decent haircut? Or What. Is. Interesting? 
Huh?
HUH?!

And did you give any consideration to just how wet it gets when it rains? 
Well did you, punk?


----------



## editor (Aug 17, 2016)

In the interests of fairness, I went to Pop Brixton today. The crowd looked much the same as usual.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 17, 2016)

Nobody cares


----------



## Rushy (Aug 18, 2016)

I guess that from some folks perspectives the people in those photos might all look like young hipsters.


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## Mr Retro (Aug 18, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Nobody cares


To be fair I reckon about 10 people in Brixton care


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 18, 2016)

That looks a bit like a works leaving drinks tbh...and about as exciting...


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## snowy_again (Aug 18, 2016)

Whereas this _might _have made me break my 'no pop' rule:


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## editor (Aug 18, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Whereas this _might _have made me break my 'no pop' rule:



That video is making me dizzy!

Their DJ acts/club nights are certainly better than the horticultural/environmental efforts.


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## editor (Aug 19, 2016)

Update on Buzz: 



> Pop Brixton made an operating loss of £266,709 during the first eight moths of trading. It cost £1,589,960 to build the container village. £1,050,000 of this came from The Collective – a Mayfair based property development business who like to target “_ambitious young professionals_.”
> 
> The self-styled ‘community business park for the 21st Century‘ along Pope’s Road has finallypublished its accounts. The Future Brixton website originally stated that these would appear back in February of 2016.
> 
> ...


Pop Brixton accounts show operating loss of £266,709 during first eight months of trading at Pope’s Road


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## alfajobrob (Aug 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Update on Buzz:
> 
> Pop Brixton accounts show operating loss of £266,709 during first eight months of trading at Pope’s Road



So they are actually donating to the community....well done Pop!


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## editor (Aug 19, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> So they are actually donating to the community....well done Pop!





> The accounts also show how Pop Brixton spent £121,975 on security for the green oasis. Garden maintenance costs came to £9,328. £250 was donated by Pop Brixton to charities


Brixton Buzz has managed well over £3,000 in charitable donations and we get zero income, so forgive me if I don't get too excited by their generous donation of just £250.


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## editor (Aug 19, 2016)

A friend commented: 





> Scandalous £121k for security & £9k for gardening ( the supposed reason thing was built / pitched / accepted )


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## teuchter (Aug 19, 2016)

In a parallel universe a Brixton Buzz article moans about Pop Brixton making too much of a profit.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 19, 2016)

In reality first year businesses tend to run at a loss, that said, I am a bit surprised they haven't made a profit.


----------



## editor (Aug 19, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> In reality first year businesses tend to run at a loss, that said, I am a bit surprised they haven't made a profit.


Especially when they're getting the land _rent fucking free_.


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## SpamMisery (Aug 19, 2016)

As it's a 50% profit share, does the council owe them £133,000?


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## SpamMisery (Aug 19, 2016)

CTA appear to be making a profit of £8,575 a year (if my quick and dirty maths is right). It's lucky he's not paying rent.


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## snowy_again (Aug 19, 2016)

But also aggressively depreciating the assets  - not read the accounts but am struggling to see where that level of capital start up went?


----------



## T & P (Aug 19, 2016)

I hope the loss-making is not going to be used now as yet another stick to beat Pop with. Given the amount of grief it gets  here for not being enough community/ not-for-profit venture driven, it'd be hilarious if it's now criticised for not making enough profits.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2016)

T & P said:


> I hope the loss-making is not going to be used now as yet another stick to beat Pop with. Given the amount of grief it gets  here for not being enough community/ not-for-profit venture driven, it'd be hilarious if it's now criticised for not making enough profits.



Cllr Hopkins expected it to make a profit that the Council shared and invested elsewhere. Looks like this is overly optimistic.



> We needed it to not run at a loss, better still to provide profits back into the Council as a revenue stream to begin the next wave of business and job creation



It may make a small profit by the last year of its time there. Or not as the case may be. But as Cllr Jack saw this as something the Council expected from this project its failing on this point.

He is implying that some of the profit share would go into the next "Pop" type project up in Loughborough Junction (minus the eateries). Realistically I don’t see that happening.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2016)

Surprised that Pop had to stump some of the money to move the Impact Hub into Pop. I assumed that would be all grant funded or funded by Council if there was a shortfall. Impact Hub was in the Town Hall so had to move whilst building works went on. So would have thought that the Council would have budgeted for this as part of the Town Hall scheme.


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## T & P (Aug 19, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Cllr Hopkins expected it to make a profit that the Council shared and invested elsewhere. Looks like this is overly optimistic.
> 
> 
> 
> It may make a small profit by the last year of its time there. Or not as the case may be. But as Cllr Jack saw this as something the Council expected from this project its failing on this point.


Yeah but, so what, really? As you said yourself earlier many ventures make a loss in their first year. There have been no consequences out of these figures- it's just a financial sumnary of an ongoing project designed to run for several more years. To me is hardly newsworthy stuff, and certainly even less worthy of criticism.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2016)

T & P said:


> Yeah but, so what, really? As you said yourself earlier many ventures make a loss in their first year. There have been no consequences out of these figures- it's just a financial sumnary of an ongoing project designed to run for several more years. To me is hardly newsworthy stuff, and certainly even less worthy of criticism.



Point being that you said :

"it'd be hilarious if it's now criticised for not making enough profits."

Cllr Jacko saw this as something that he expected. Im not criticising individuals here. This project was expected to produce a 50:50 profit share between the Council and Pop. This was on the agreement that the land would be given rent free. Brought up many times on this thread about the profit share.

It now looks like the projected profit share is low figure. And it will not happen until the end of the scheme.

So its not a sign of success of this project.


----------



## alfajobrob (Aug 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Brixton Buzz has managed well over £3,000 in charitable donations and we get zero income, so forgive me if I don't get too excited by their generous donation of just £250.



Don't get me wrong like - I'm sure a few people have been paid VERY equitably even though the loss*...they have also donated space\time to free projects ala calais kitchen.

*I'd like to see the accounts broken down and posted here as it means nothing to a charitable financial incompetent like me - but I know other people here are good at this sort of stuff if they can be bothered!


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## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 20, 2016)

The real question is  what  is the underlying value this place has?


What resource does this place has  that makes it a commodity?


I ask this  because  it is clear  that  the community aspects  were disregarded

It seems to me that the whole idea  seems  hollow.

Some of the food places seem  nice  but   not well represented.   if they marketed this  as   a special food court  i would  be behind it.  but no.  it's  deliberatly  hipster bollocks  crap


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## SpamMisery (Aug 20, 2016)

> The promise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





SpamMisery said:


> Looking a bit bloody green for my liking



Wow. They actually did exactly what they said they would!


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## Lizzy Mac (Aug 20, 2016)

I haven't seen it in real life but if that was my allotment I'd be very upset with myself.


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## editor (Aug 20, 2016)

Lizzy Mac said:


> I haven't seen it in real life but if that was my allotment I'd be very upset with myself.


It's barely greener than my balcony in the Barrier Block.


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## editor (Aug 20, 2016)

Compare Pop Brixton's pitifully small £250 charitable donation with the thousands of pounds consistently raised for charity in the now flattened Canterbury Arms, which Pop Fields now sits on.


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## editor (Aug 20, 2016)

T & P said:


> I hope the loss-making is not going to be used now as yet another stick to beat Pop with. Given the amount of grief it gets  here for not being enough community/ not-for-profit venture driven, it'd be hilarious if it's now criticised for not making enough profits.


Why not? The money was supposed to go back to the council, so it's our fucking money. If they've spunked it all on trying to look like trendy Shoreditch park and shelling out hundreds of thousands on security guards and 'absorbing' money from elsewhere, why shouldn't people be critical?

I can't help thinking that if they just put on normal markets in that space - or rented it out to displaced Arch traders - and not bothered with all the trendy container park bollocks, they would have ended up raising more money than the comparatively tiny £98,000 predicted after three years. And that's on _rent free land._ Where's all the money gone?


----------



## editor (Aug 20, 2016)

Anyone got any thoughts on how and why a temporary pop up should cost *£1.5m* to build given that it's just a stack of shipping containers with some infrastructure attached? Those shipping units cost about £3k each second hand, so where the fuck did all the rest of the money go?


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## bimble (Aug 20, 2016)

That is a lot isn't it. Architects fees less that £50,000 wasn't it. labour costs transport materials even if ten times that still not adding up to 1.5 millions worth of a great value for money temporary structure.


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## wurlycurly (Aug 20, 2016)

editor said:


> Anyone got any thoughts on how and why a temporary pop up should cost *£1.5m* to build given that it's just a stack of shipping containers with some infrastructure attached? Those shipping units cost about £3k each second hand, so where the fuck did all the rest of the money go?



A breakdown of that £1.5m figure would be very interesting. Where the hell has all the cash gone?


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## T & P (Aug 20, 2016)

editor said:


> Anyone got any thoughts on how and why a temporary pop up should cost *£1.5m* to build given that it's just a stack of shipping containers with some infrastructure attached? Those shipping units cost about £3k each second hand, so where the fuck did all the rest of the money go?


Welcome to Great Britain. Everything here costs (to a layman's eye like mine, at least) exorbitant amounts of money. The redesign and repaving of Oxford Circus's central crossing area cost £7m, for instance. Seven million quid to replace some paving stones.

It is ridiculous but I don't think it is out of step with what building _anything_ at all in this country costs. There might have been incompetence at work of course, but the figure alone is meaningless and it's impossible to draw any conclusions from it.


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## editor (Aug 20, 2016)

T & P said:


> Welcome to Great Britain. Everything here costs (to a layman's eye like mine, at least) exorbitant amounts of money. The redesign and repaving of Oxford Circus's central crossing area cost £7m, for instance. Seven million quid to replace some paving stones.
> 
> It is ridiculous but I don't think it is out of step with what building _anything_ at all in this country costs. There might have been incompetence at work of course, but the figure alone is meaningless and it's impossible to draw any conclusions from it.


Oh right. So best not ask any questions then because some unrelated projects elsewhere have inexplicably cost a lot too.

It's a fucking pile of low-cost, second hand rusty containers on a bit of rent-free land in Brixton. How the fuck can that temporary structure cost £1.5m? And why should that much money be spent on a temporary structure in the first place?


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## SpamMisery (Aug 20, 2016)

The O2 anyone?


----------



## bimble (Aug 20, 2016)

Is Pop Brixton still going to close as planned at the end of 2018? What's going to happen there next does anyone know?


----------



## wurlycurly (Aug 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> Is Pop Brixton still going to close as planned at the end of 2018? What's going to happen there next does anyone know?


 It will be dismantled for a bargain-basement £2m.


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## Manter (Aug 20, 2016)

alfajobrob said:


> Don't get me wrong like - I'm sure a few people have been paid VERY equitably even though the loss*...they have also donated space\time to free projects ala calais kitchen.
> 
> *I'd like to see the accounts broken down and posted here as it means nothing to a charitable financial incompetent like me - but I know other people here are good at this sort of stuff if they can be bothered!


Yes- I'll always like them because of their fundraisers for Calais Kitchen. Made thousands. 

Incidentally the only charitable donations you can put in your accounts are those relevant to your business. So if I sponsor the kit for a local football team I can put that in my accounts as my logo will appear etc; if I randomly give £1k to a donkey sanctuary I can't (unless my business related to donkeys of course)


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## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2016)

bimble said:


> Is Pop Brixton still going to close as planned at the end of 2018? What's going to happen there next does anyone know?



It's part of the Brixton Central Master plan area. Consultation on the plan will restart in September. 

At the moment looks like being housing with other mixed uses. 

Council have not yet said how this will be done. Whether they will partner with a developer.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2016)

T & P said:


> Yeah but, so what, really? As you said yourself earlier many ventures make a loss in their first year. There have been no consequences out of these figures- it's just a financial sumnary of an ongoing project designed to run for several more years. To me is hardly newsworthy stuff, and certainly even less worthy of criticism.



It maybe "newsworthy" if, down the road a bit, CTA etc use the early lack of profitability as a jemmy to force "concessions" out of Lambeth regarding future profits.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 21, 2016)

11 Tips You Need To Know Before Building A Shipping Container Home



7. Don't Expect To Make A Huge Saving

"What I wish I had known is that building a house from shipping containers cost me a similar amount as a stick built house."

- Robyn Volker, owner of the North Branch Container House by Tim Steele


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## marty21 (Aug 21, 2016)

Thanks to the great advertising on urban I popped into Pop Brixton on Saturday afternoon  It was busy and full of young people so we went back to the beehive


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## editor (Aug 21, 2016)

Over £1.5m spent. For a _temporary_ green oasis made of second-hand shipping containers that raises a minuscule £250 for charity and gives back just £48,000 for the rent free use of the land.


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## Rushy (Aug 21, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> A breakdown of that £1.5m figure would be very interesting. Where the hell has all the cash gone?



Not a breakdown as such, but looking at the built floor area set out in the planning docs (including the later addition of four extra containers under the poly tunnel) there are about 1,450sqm of built space. The £1.5 million project cost comes out at approximately £1,000 per square meter, all in including VAT where applicable. This figure probably includes more than just straightforward build costs. 

Residential (I don't know much about commercial costs) build cost in London is usually closer to £2,000 per square meter plus VAT if applicable. At less than half that, the Pop costs don't stand out as particularly outrageous, although someone here is likely to know more than I do about commercial building works.


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## Rushy (Aug 21, 2016)

wurlycurly said:


> It will be dismantled for a bargain-basement £2m.


Don't joke. I can't recall what the figure was to take down the single story brick changing rooms in Brockwell Park and leave the fugly concrete slab, but I recall my eyes watering.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 21, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Thanks to the great advertising on urban I popped into Pop Brixton on Saturday afternoon  It was busy and full of young people so we went back to the beehive



Been in the Beehive a few Saturday afternoons and it has a mixed crowd then. It's cheap place to go after Saturday shopping in Brixton


----------



## teuchter (Aug 22, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Been in the Beehive a few Saturday afternoons and it has a mixed crowd then. It's cheap place to go after Saturday shopping in Brixton





Rushy said:


> Not a breakdown as such, but looking at the built floor area set out in the planning docs (including the later addition of four extra containers under the poly tunnel) there are about 1,450sqm of built space. The £1.5 million project cost comes out at approximately £1,000 per square meter, all in including VAT where applicable. This figure probably includes more than just straightforward build costs.
> 
> Residential (I don't know much about commercial costs) build cost in London is usually closer to £2,000 per square meter plus VAT if applicable. At less than half that, the Pop costs don't stand out as particularly outrageous, although someone here is likely to know more than I do about commercial building works.


Yes the build cost doesn't seem surprising to me.

Also, the majority of that £1.5m stumped up by money grabbing evil capitalist Blairite/Thatcherite I'm all right jack loadsamoney posho corporate hipster monsters "The Collective" - not public funding. So it's their capital at risk if the project doesn't turn a profit at the end.

Of course if it doesn't turn a profit then the council's expected profit-share won't appear. And it would be fair enough to criticise the project on that basis, seeing as that was supposed to be part of the benefit of doing it.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Yes the build cost doesn't seem surprising to me.
> 
> Also, the majority of that £1.5m stumped up by money grabbing evil capitalist Blairite/Thatcherite I'm all right jack loadsamoney posho corporate hipster monsters "The Collective" - not public funding. So it's their capital at risk if the project doesn't turn a profit at the end.
> 
> Of course if it doesn't turn a profit then the council's expected profit-share won't appear. And it would be fair enough to criticise the project on that basis, seeing as that was supposed to be part of the benefit of doing it.


I'm sure that folk will be delighted if the project returns a whopping profit in the next period. 

Anyone know how much the site is generating in business rates?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2016)

All my dislike for Pop aside, I wouldn't take any joy in it being a complete failure and making no profit. Now it's there it might as well be successful and make Lambeth some dough which may end up being put to good use....somewhere....in some distant daydream.


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## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

Accounts link here: http://media.wix.com/ugd/7c8bd5_3933f26c3b1a412bb0948154d93296a0.pdf

Covering the period from 18 November 2014 to 31 January 2016, so won't include 2015-16 income / expenditure or any later grants from LBL or others.


----------



## T & P (Aug 22, 2016)

Rushy said:


> I'm sure that folk will be delighted if the project returns a whopping profit in the next period.


 Well they could cut costs by reducing or cutting off altogether all the free activities and events they host, and increasing the rent prices forcing the stallholders to increase their own prices. That way the place would be firmly in the black in time, and everyone's happy.

Oh wait.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

I don't think much can be read from the bottom line of those accounts. For starters, for most of the period concerned all the offices which are now all let and generating income, were still in the process of completion and vacant.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

T & P said:


> Well they could cut costs by reducing or cutting off altogether all the free activities and events they host, and increasing the rent prices forcing the stallholders to increase their own prices. That way the place would be firmly in the black in time, and everyone's happy.
> 
> Oh wait.


Or they could have just built something a lot less trendy and expensive with cheaper rents, not got arch capitalists The Collective onboard and not made it something that had to be guarded by over £120,000 of security.

The free activities and events - the kind of thing that goes on in venues all over Lambeth every week without the need for fanfare - cost very little to put on, by the way, and also generate income for the food and bar stalls (and publicity, natch), so that's one almighty strawman you're putting up there.

But do tell me how impressed you are with that _massive_ £250 charitable donation they managed to scrape together in relation to the £375,029 they received in rent from tenants on their rent-free gift of a site. Real community stuff there, eh?


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 22, 2016)

And the £16,000 they gave to Reprezent Radio and the many free events they hosted (and paid for) and the significantly reduced rents they offered tenants. That counts as charitable giving in my book.


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## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

There appears to be some confusion between charitable donation and fund raising (which it is being compared to). The former would go through the accounts as it is a donation paid out of the business' own profit (which we know was non existent). 

The latter would not usually show up in accounts as it is money raised from others for donation to a third party. It never belongs to the business and would not normally show on accounts.


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 22, 2016)

Rushy said:


> There appears to be some confusion between charitable donation and fund raising (which it is being compared to). The former would go through the accounts as it is a donation paid out of the business' own profit (which we know was non existent).
> 
> The latter would not usually show up in accounts as it is money raised from others for donation to a third party. It never belongs to the business and would not normally show on accounts.



yep plenty of scope for creative accounting right there 
E2a also here.......Business rates relief - GOV.UK


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> yep plenty of scope for creative accounting right there
> E2a also here.......Business rates relief - GOV.UK



Can you explain that? [edit, sorry whilst I was posting, you edited to add the Business Rates info]


----------



## cuppa tee (Aug 22, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Can you explain that? [edit, sorry whilst I was posting, you edited to add the Business Rates info]


yes I am a bit dim but the dark arts of accountancy make me suspicious
especially when concepts of community and charity are thrown in the mix........


----------



## Angellic (Aug 22, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Can you explain that? [edit, sorry whilst I was posting, you edited to add the Business Rates info]



I think any discounts are applied as a percentage. I work for a charity which owns the building. We rent a small office to a commercial organisation. We lose some of the rate relief based on the size of the office in proportion to our offices.


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## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

But they're two separate things - a company giving to charity is obliged to record that in their accounts, and voluntary donations (for charity being collected from individuals etc) being generated on its own premises isn't anything to do with their accounts.

The latter is what's been cited re. Calais etc. as well as what happened at the Canterbury.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

The Collective. A Mayfair based property development business who like to target “_ambitious young professionals_.” Yep, they're the perfect fit for a local community project.

And in that true community spirit, why not let some multinationals 'take over' the entire place for a bit? Or regularly give up space for a massive national chain to charge West End prices to watch an old film or two? Oh, wait. They've already done that.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

Which as we've agreed is entirely in line with what EBS were proposing - its stated in their proposals.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Which as we've agreed is entirely in line with what EBS were proposing - its stated in their proposals.


You think EBS would agree that Pop Brixton has turned exactly as they planned with Grow Brixton?


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

No I'm not saying that and you know it.


----------



## T & P (Aug 22, 2016)

editor said:


> Or they could have just built something a lot less trendy and expensive with cheaper rents, not got arch capitalists The Collective onboard and not made it something that had to be guarded by over £120,000 of security.
> 
> The free activities and events - the kind of thing that goes on in venues all over Lambeth every week without the need for fanfare - cost very little to put on, by the way, and also generate income for the food and bar stalls (and publicity, natch), so that's one almighty strawman you're putting up there.
> 
> But do tell me how impressed you are with that _massive_ £250 charitable donation they managed to scrape together in relation to the £375,029 they received in rent from tenants on their rent-free gift of a site. Real community stuff there, eh?


As you well know they've done a lot more than the donation you mention, such as various funding activities as well as giveaways.

And with regard to the set up costs, if you have any evidence to suggest that the original Grow plans would have been any cheaper to set up, please do let us know.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

T & P said:


> As you well know they've done a lot more than the donation you mention, such as various funding activities as well as giveaways.


Loads of venues and spaces around Brixton have been hosting innumerable charity fundraisers. Some have been doing it for decades. That doesn't exclude them from criticism, but when something is set up as project for the community and gifted rent-free land, then it's only right people should put them under extra scrutiny. If you think a £250 donation and a return to taxpayers of just £48,000 after all this time is admirable stuff, then that's fine. I'm not impressed though.


T & P said:


> And with regard to the set up costs, if you have any evidence to suggest that the original Grow plans would have been any cheaper to set up, please do let us know.


They were much smaller, for a start, and I doubt if they would have had to spend £120k on security.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

editor said:


> Loads of venues and spaces around Brixton have been hosting innumerable charity fundraisers. Some have been doing it for decades. That doesn't exclude them from criticism, but when something is set up as project for the community and gifted rent-free land, then it's only right people should put them under extra scrutiny.



Agree with all of that - I'm still waiting for the scrutiny though - the BB piece doesn't do any of that - there's no scrutiny apart from putting the word absorb into quotes, allowing people to misinterpret what "absorb" means,  incorrectly implying that pop benefited. You've got a local prospective councillor thinking that Lambeth council tax payers are paying for all of this on a daily basis; and that it's still losing £1k per day of actual cash as opposed to numbers on a balance sheet. Does anyone know this? Probably only the people running it as the information won't be public, or wont' be released until it gets to the cycles of financial reporting set out by Companies House.  

Then highlighting that they paid security costs [which i guess for a place with a licensing requirement open about 12 hours per day, some days of the week is probably compulsory, and isn't a cost they can avoid is it]? If it was smaller, you'd still need to have a SIA person on an entrance - irrespective of the size of the site inside. Perhaps you can clarify how you'd do it?  



editor said:


> If you think a £250 donation and a return to taxpayers of just £48,000 *after all this time *is admirable stuff, then that's fine. I'm not impressed though.



Firstly, it's not after "all this time" - the accounts as you'll know, only run up until January of this year. So it doesn't cover 7 months of the busiest opening period. 

Secondly, i'm not sure where either EBS or this incarnation was ever there to generate funds to donate directly to charity? Do you?  That would reduce the amount of cash it can return to LBL as part of the agreed profit share, and reduce the amount of turnover they'd have to support the mix of social (ie. charitable) and commercial activity.  

There's a hundred and one reasons to knock PB, and some evidence of community space hire / community benefit going on.  The latest thing about the accounts is just a half hearted dig - you'd be better asking someone with an accounting background to review them and then comment.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> There's a hundred and one reasons to knock PB, and some evidence of community space hire / community benefit going on.  The latest thing about the accounts is just a half hearted dig - you'd be better asking someone with an accounting background to review them and then comment.


Or maybe Pop should take the time to explain to the public what is going on, given that they've been given the land rent free and seem to have blown an awful lot of money on what is supposed to be a temporary venture that appears to be giving very little back. I don't think you need an accountancy background to raise an eyebrow at a £1.5m build cost for something made of old shipping containers that isn't going to be around for very long.

I didn't write the article, by the way.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 22, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Agree with all of that - I'm still waiting for the scrutiny though - the BB piece doesn't do any of that - there's no scrutiny apart from putting the word absorb into quotes, allowing people to misinterpret what "absorb" means,  incorrectly implying that pop benefited. You've got a local prospective councillor thinking that Lambeth council tax payers are paying for all of this on a daily basis; and that it's still losing £1k per day of actual cash as opposed to numbers on a balance sheet. Does anyone know this? Probably only the people running it as the information won't be public, or wont' be released until it gets to the cycles of financial reporting set out by Companies House.
> 
> Then highlighting that they paid security costs [which i guess for a place with a licensing requirement open about 12 hours per day, some days of the week is probably compulsory, and isn't a cost they can avoid is it]? If it was smaller, you'd still need to have a SIA person on an entrance - irrespective of the size of the site inside. Perhaps you can clarify how you'd do it?
> 
> ...


Hear, hear.

There's potentially some interesting info in the accounts. And some useful info to be gained from a proper commentary, from someone who knows what they are doing. For example, I'd be interested to know what the council could have earned from simply letting out the land for the same period of time that the pop project is intended to run, and how this might compare with the projected profit share. It is also interesting now to see the amount ofmoney gained from the adidas event, in the context of overall costs. As you say the seemingly high security costs need to be put into context.

An article full of scare quotes and figures without context is what I would expect from one of the crappy tabloids.

And that the build costs might provoke raised eyebrows from people who know nothing about construction costs is non-information.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2016)

Is the security for manned security only or for security systems maintenance and management and monitoring as well?


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Is the security for manned security only or for security systems maintenance and management and monitoring as well?


Their statement includes £121,975 for security plus an additional £64,619 under 'caretaker.'

Repairs and maintenance account for a separate £10,262.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2016)

Ah ok. I suspect security systems maintenance and monitoring comes under the security budget alongside manned provision. That's the norm.

I wonder if they have a night guard.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Ah ok. I suspect security systems maintenance and monitoring comes under the security budget alongside manned provision. That's the norm.
> 
> I wonder if they have a night guard.


I wonder how their security bill stacks up against similar 'community-minded' projects on rent-free land.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

Frankly there should not being any charitable donations from Pop because charitable donations were never in its remit. It may as well be criticised for not finding a cure for hemorroides.

There is a full time caretaker (an eccentric chap who during the reclaim q&a announced that if you don't know him you're not "true Brixton". )On top of his salary they're will be NI and pension contributions, as well as possibly recruitment costs. An individual's salary can account for only a fraction of the cost of employing them.

There appear to be about four security on at a time at peak times. And at least one or two the rest of the time. Mounts up pretty quickly. Especially if you get your security through a contractor.

Shit is expensive. And on projects that size you can't cut corners because insurers, licensing, lenders, professional bodies, etc.. demand it.


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## Angellic (Aug 22, 2016)

There will be a copy of the Premises Licence displayed somewhere in PB. It should show the level of security staffing required.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2016)

Points 8 & 9

https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s75718/Draft reasons-Pop Brixton.pdf

The last statement in point 9 is rather interesting....


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2016)

Also:

. The Premises Licence Holder shall ensure the following provision of site security: 

Monday to Wednesday  8am to 5pm 1 SIA qualified care taker  5pm to closing + 1hour (Security & Caretakers will stay on hour after closing) 2 SIA qualified care taker and 2 SIA security agents; 

Thursday  8am to 5pm 1 SIA qualified care taker  5pm to closing + 1hour (Security & Caretakers will stay on hour after closing) 2 SIA qualified care taker and 3 SIA security agents; 

Friday to Sunday  8am to 11 am 1 SIA qualified care taker  11am to 1pm 2 SIA qualified care taker  1pm to closing + 1hour (Security & Caretakers will stay on hour after closing) 2 SIA qualified care taker and 3 SIA security agents.


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## teuchter (Aug 22, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Also:
> 
> . The Premises Licence Holder shall ensure the following provision of site security:
> 
> ...




I make that 364 person-hours per week which means about 9 40-hour working weeks so effectively requires the employment of 9 full time positions.

Have I got that right?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I make that 364 person-hours per week which means about 9 40-hour working weeks so effectively requires the employment of 9 full time positions.
> 
> Have I got that right?


Not to mention any security they either choose or are required to have outside those licensed hours. E.g. Night time, for insurance, etc...


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2016)

which would be about 190k for 52 weeks with an average £10hr pay.....(including the caretaker fee)


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## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

Plus NIC, sick leave, holiday pay, training, recruitment, maternity/paternity, insurance, overtime, etc...


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## teuchter (Aug 22, 2016)

So the question is actually: how is Pop Brixton spending so little on security?

(although I don't know if those "draft reasons" are the actual licensing requirements imposed)


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 22, 2016)

teuchter said:


> So the question is actually: how is Pop Brixton spending so little on security?
> 
> (although I don't know if those "draft reasons" are the actual licensing requirements imposed)



Probably not paying the tenner an hour....more likely 7.50.....

'at risk' guards (i.e. the one handling cash in vans only get £12.50 with g4s), so Pop's blokes are probably on peanuts.

I pay my guards £20 an hour midnight til 8am. £17 an 6pm til midnight. but they only do a couple of hours at the beginning and end of day, so it has to be worth their while...


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## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

Not to mention that it was only trading for 8 months of that accounting period, and for some of that time it was only partially operational.


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## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Points 8 & 9
> 
> https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s75718/Draft reasons-Pop Brixton.pdf
> 
> The last statement in point 9 is rather interesting....





> The security company being used was a local firm with fifteen years’ experience. The use of SIA staff would be kept under review. *However, the premises was not a party area*.


Bwahahaha!


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

Ain't no party like an S(ia) Club Party.


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## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

Just to repeat: 


> The accounts explain that Pop Brixton hopes to break even by the summer of 2018. The project is due to come to a close in October 2018. A net profit of £98,000 is predicted by then. This will be split evenly between the shareholders and Lambeth Council.


So that's just £49,000 going back to the local taxpayers in exchange for Pop Brixton enjoying THREE years of rent-free trading, with the shareholders pocketing the rest. 

So that's £16,000 a year in exchange for that juicy, rent-free prime site in the heart of Brixton. Not exactly a runaway, soaraway success is it?


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

This sounds suspiciously like a party to me:


> As believers in hedonism and happiness we think dancing shouldn’t just be confined to sticky dance floors in the small hours of the weekend – so WNDC is about recreating the best bits of a weekend party, on a week night.


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## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

There's no scandal in it not returning a lot of money for Lambeth. It was never meant to. Lambeth wanted to create jobs and opportunities and they have done. 

What would be a scandal would be if Lambeth has entered into a joint project in which they get a 50% profit share, but the structure allows funds to be taken out by other parties in perhaps fees or interest _before the profit is calculated. 
_
I've not seen anything to suggest that is the case but I do wonder what was in this for The Collective if they invested £1,500,000 to walk away with only a portion of £48,000 in three years.

Mind you, if it carries on just one more year than expected (and I suspect that it will), the profits will be significant because all the up front costs will have been accounted for.

Reputation and experience wise, this has been a big deal for CTA so worth all the hassle even if they only make a very modest amount of money.


----------



## Winot (Aug 22, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Reputation and experience wise, this has been a big deal for CTA so worth all the hassle even if they only make a very modest amount of money.



Yep, could be seen as a loss leader (didn't they get the gig in Peckham off the back of Pop?).


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## snowy_again (Aug 22, 2016)

editor said:


> Just to repeat: "the accounts explain that Pop Brixton hopes to break even by the summer of 2018. [etc. etc. with the line following: The project is due to come to a close in October 2018. A net profit of £98,000 is predicted by then. This will be split evenly between the shareholders and Lambeth Council."


 
Where does it say that? Here are the accounts linked by Jason for the BB article PB: http://media.wix.com/ugd/7c8bd5_3933f26c3b1a412bb0948154d93296a0.pdf 

It's only 14 pages, and there's barely a paragraph on each page, so you can read it quickly. Where does it give an income forecast? 

This is the problem with this argument - you're in danger of just trotting out lines that you're told as if they're true.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Where does it say that? Here are the accounts linked by Jason for the BB article PB: http://media.wix.com/ugd/7c8bd5_3933f26c3b1a412bb0948154d93296a0.pdf
> 
> It's only 14 pages, and there's barely a paragraph on each page, so you can read it quickly. Where does it give an income forecast?


Err, right here:


> At the minute we predict that we will break even in the Summer of 2018, and that by the end of our time here we will have made a total net profit of around £98,000. Any profit will be split equally between our shareholders and Lambeth Council.


Pop Brixton


snowy_again said:


> This is the problem with this argument - you're in danger of just trotting out lines that you're told as if they're true.


It's not me that's got a problem with the facts here. Jason was completely correct. I trust you'll now apologise for your unfounded slur.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 22, 2016)

They could have made money, broken even, or traded at a loss; they would have still got it in the neck from Urban75


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## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

Too be fair to snowy Jason actually says "The accounts explain that Pop Brixton hopes to break even by the summer of 2018." And he's right to question where that information came from because the accounts clearly don't show that. 

From a cursory glance, Pop's write up about where their money comes from and goes appears to be quite candid.


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## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

I wonder why it took so long for Pop to produce these accounts after it was originally stated that they would appear back in February 2016. Six months seems very overdue - especially for a 'community' focused project gifted rent free land - but no doubt some posters will be along shortly to make excuses for them.


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## Lizzy Mac (Aug 22, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Plus NIC, sick leave, holiday pay, training, recruitment, maternity/paternity, insurance, overtime, etc...


When I used to book security they were paid per hour.  I doubt they got any of those benefits.  
I'm just saying, otherwise we'd all want to be security guards.


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## teuchter (Aug 22, 2016)

"some posters"


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

Lizzy Mac said:


> When I used to book security they were paid per hour.  I doubt they got any of those benefits.
> I'm just saying, otherwise we'd all want to be security guards.


Security guards are generally on very low rates of pay - I'd be surprised if they're even paid the London Living Wage, let alone lavished with a portfolio of employer benefits.


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## Rushy (Aug 22, 2016)

Lizzy Mac said:


> When I used to book security they were paid per hour.  I doubt they got any of those benefits.
> I'm just saying, otherwise we'd all want to be security guards.


I see. Why did you choose to book them like that?


----------



## bimble (Aug 22, 2016)

I don't understand why so much security guarding was required - is it because of the high alcohol content inside the place? (real question).


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## Lizzy Mac (Aug 22, 2016)

Rushy said:


> I see. Why did you choose to book them like that?


Because I had to, that's how it's worked and they were a preferred supplier.
Poor buggers had to make their way home at all hours of the night knackered.  Most of them were doing two or three jobs.


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## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

bimble said:


> I don't understand why so much security guarding was required - is it because of the high alcohol content inside the place? (real question).


Well one poster seemed to think it was because Pop was a #1 terrorist target, but that seems remarkably unlikely. 

I'd guess that it's more to do with the venue's increasing focus as a booze-serving, nightclub/tourist trap, as evidenced by the bolt-on, twin bar Pop Fields which seemed mainly concerned with attracting drinkers for sports events.


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2016)

Lizzy Mac said:


> Because I had to, that's how it's worked and they were a preferred supplier.
> Poor buggers had to make their way home at all hours of the night knackered.  Most of them were doing two or three jobs.


I know several security guards and they're all on pretty awful pay with very few benefits. It's a real shitty job.


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## discobastard (Aug 22, 2016)

editor said:


> I wonder why it took so long for Pop to produce these accounts after it was originally stated that they would appear back in February 2016. Six months seems very overdue - especially for a 'community' focused project gifted rent free land - but no doubt some posters will be along shortly to make excuses for them.


No excuses here but all the relevant info is online regards accounting rules (plus Pop filing history):

POP BRIXTON LIMITED - Filing history (free information from Companies House)

Change your company's year end - GOV.UK

A guide to accounting reference dates and periods | Companies House


----------



## aka (Aug 23, 2016)

Mostly what I glean from that set of accounts is:

1) not much - as they are from history (like all sets of accounts)
2) they published much more than they needed to (usually only HMRC see all the back pages)
3) they had limited cash at the balance sheet date - hand to mouth cash wise...
4) very tough every day to have to run that business given 3.
5) £1m plus was borrowed/lent from someone (who didn't require a 'charge' on the assets (!?)) to build it, that needs paid back.

I'd be astonished if the enterprise makes any serious EBITDA, never mind any actual profit.  Not through creative accounting, just because it is costly to run and there is only so much rent the Pizza Place and Noodle Place and Impact Place can/will pay.  Fixating on the donation would be a mistake as it's just an accounting classification and 'disclosure' requirement.  Ditto the Accounting Reference Date.  £1.25m to build POP isn't that costly really psf.

Point 5 is the interesting one.


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## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2016)

Lizzy Mac said:


> Because I had to, that's how it's worked and they were a preferred supplier.
> Poor buggers had to make their way home at all hours of the night knackered.  Most of them were doing two or three jobs.



Most security guards I know are on Zero Hours contracts. Even if they have worked in the same place for several years. A security guard I know who has a secure full time job says all the new people they are taking on are on Zero Hours contracts. Its becoming the norm.He got his job with his firm years ago before these firms cottoned on to the advantages ( to the firms) of Zero Hours contracts.

Its really shite and means you have no security of employment. Little access to sick pay etc. The rights that a person who is in secure employment would have. Its all about reducing costs/ risks to the employer.


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## editor (Aug 24, 2016)

Pop Brixton doing their bit for the community 

Pop Brixton receives ‘community protection warning’ after resident noise complaints


----------



## discobastard (Aug 24, 2016)

editor said:


> Pop Brixton doing their bit for the community
> 
> Pop Brixton receives ‘community protection warning’ after resident noise complaints


Think there may be a typo in there Ed - the letter states there may be a fixed penalty notice for £100.00, while in the article it says £100,000.  Big difference!


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2016)

discobastard said:


> Think there may be a typo in there Ed - the letter states there may be a fixed penalty notice for £100.00, while in the article it says £100,000.  Big difference!


Oops yes - thanks for spotting that!


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 24, 2016)

Wouldn't it be kinda daft for Lambeth to fine Pop loads of dough, thus potentially impacting their own profit down the line...


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Wouldn't it be kinda daft for Lambeth to fine Pop loads of dough, thus potentially impacting their own profit down the line...



Not how it works. Noise complaints are something the Council deal with across the board. Whether its private residential or licensed premises. Supposed to be independent of any interest the Council might have.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2016)

editor said:


> Pop Brixton doing their bit for the community
> 
> Pop Brixton receives ‘community protection warning’ after resident noise complaints



I have wondered what the people in the flats behind Pop feel about it. As a few times Ive been past  the music has been really loud. This is daytimes and evenings. Must be on a regular basis now.

Its not like this bit of Brixton has a history of outdoor venues.

I would have thought that a project that we keep being told is community focussed would not have got a "community protection warning".


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I have wondered what the people in the flats behind Pop feel about it. As a few times Ive been past  the music has been really loud. This is daytimes and evenings. Must be on a regular basis now.
> 
> Its not like this bit of Brixton has a history of outdoor venues.


I've got nothing but contempt for selfish wankers who move in next door to established venues and then start whining about the noise that existed way before they turned up, but this is totally different. As you say, there is no history of loud music being played here the increasing noise levels would suggest that Pop are rather contemptuous of the local community.


----------



## T & P (Aug 24, 2016)

editor said:


> I've got nothing but contempt for selfish wankers who move in next door to established venues and then start whining about the noise that existed way before they turned up, but this is totally different. As you say, there is no history of loud music being played here the increasing noise levels would suggest that Pop are rather contemptuous of the local community.


That might very well be the case, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions myself based on four complaints.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 24, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Not how it works. Noise complaints are something the Council deal with across the board. Whether its private residential or licensed premises. Supposed to be independent of any interest the Council might have.




Oh....so cos it aint supposed to be corrupt then it won't be....erm


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> That might very well be the case, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions myself based on four complaints.



The number of complaints is immaterial.

The officers who deal with noise complaints would not have issued this letter without sufficient grounds. The letter says they have assessed the complaints. Which I take they have been down there themselves.

Having lived in central Brixton I have dealt with noise issues. Officers do not issue letters like this unless they really have to.

It does not reflect well on Pop.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Oh....so cos it aint supposed to be corrupt then it won't be....erm



So are u saying the Council will go easy on Pop noise complaints as there is a corrupt relationship with the Council and the mge of Pop? That the Council want to make sure they will get there profit share and will make sure that there is no chance that this will go any further in case it hits Pops profits? So the local residents will just have to suffer because of a corrupt collusion between Pop and the Council.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> That might very well be the case, but I wouldn't draw any conclusions myself based on four complaints.


I'll draw conclusions from the loud noise I've heard myself late at night many times and the comments from people I know who live nearby (who are unlikely to have complained, btw).

 Lambeth don't dish out these warnings for fun, so I'll be interested to know why are you so reluctant to 'draw conclusions' in what seems such a clear cut case. What other conclusions can be reached?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 24, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Wouldn't it be kinda daft for Lambeth to fine Pop loads of dough, thus potentially impacting their own profit down the line...


Not at all. They get the whole fine. But only half the profits!


----------



## T & P (Aug 24, 2016)

editor said:


> I'll draw conclusions from the loud noise I've heard myself late at night many times and the comments from people I know who live nearby (who are unlikely to have complained, btw).
> 
> Lambeth don't dish out these warnings for fun, so I'll be interested to know why are you so reluctant to 'draw conclusions' in what seems such a clear cut case. What other conclusions can be reached?


In this country, as I'm sure you know, it only takes a very few individual complaints for the local authority to step in. So while many of those complaints might be genuine and shared by the local community, others might be just a couple of people or even just one individual complaining out of spite or because that's what floats their boat. 

Indeed, another poster said on these boards that the SW4 festival in Clapham has strict restrictions on volume levels every year based on the complaints of a single local resident. Out of a catchment area of thousands. Would you say the organisers are being contemptuous there? What if there were five complaints? What if there were fifty?

So I wouldn't rush to judge Pop as contemptuous to the local community based on four complaints. They might well be, but then it is not less likely the complaints are not fair or representative. We simply don't know from such a small number. If there'd been many dozens of complaints during the time Pop's been open there'd be far less doubt about the issue.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> In this country, as I'm sure you know, it only takes a very few individual complaints for the local authority to step in.


Except these didn't come from one person and the officials agreed that the levels were "significantly louder" than was was acceptable. Why should they have to put up with this new noise?



And, to repeat:



> Officers have assessed this complaint and have determined that the alleged noise generated from the playing of loud amplified music is likely to be having a detrimental effect on the quality of life of those in the locality...


----------



## Rushy (Aug 24, 2016)

I haven't developed much respect for the noise team over the years. But agree that Pop must surely be a genuine nuisance to the nearby flats at times. It's loud and there was nothing noisy there before. I don't* quite understand how they get away with it.

Edit: _didn't_


----------



## T & P (Aug 24, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> The number of complaints is immaterial.
> 
> The officers who deal with noise complaints would not have issued this letter without sufficient grounds. The letter says they have assessed the complaints. Which I take they have been down there themselves.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, though if that is the case picking and choosing which council interventions are justified and which aren't become for the most part a highly subjective issue.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> Fair enough, though if that is the case picking and choosing which council interventions are justified and which aren't become for the most part a highly subjective issue.


Indeed. And the "my favorite venue was here before the arrivistes" argument so often trotted out is tediously simplistic.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> Fair enough, though if that is the case picking and choosing which council interventions are justified and which aren't become for the most part a highly subjective issue.



I used to live in central Brixton for years. I have also helped other people with noise issues in the area.

Its not something I go on much about here.

During the Brixton Central Masterplan - ongoing apparently- this site is down for permanent redevelopment as mixed use provisionally. Housing , retail, cafe etc. I have said this does not work at consultation meeting. They need to be kept separate. For the reasons that this noise complaint shows. It just does not work to put entertainment venues next to housing. "Mixed" use is the lastest fad in urban renaissance and all that bollox. Officers do not take kindly to be told this.

The Council since the "Brixton Challenge" post riot funding has concentrated in encouraging central Brixton to be entertainment area. Without putting in safeguards for the residential population. Also see the problem of basic things like public toilets. If ur going to encourage large numbers to come down to an area on weekends its a no brainer.

If Pop is supposed to be an experiment in doing things differently I do hope lessons will be learnt. But doubt it. Council have invested so much in this politically thats not going to happen.


----------



## editor (Aug 24, 2016)

T & P said:


> Fair enough, though if that is the case picking and choosing which council interventions are justified and which aren't become for the most part a highly subjective issue.


As a rule of thumb, I'd say that anyone moving next to a late night venue - or into a busy, bustling town centre with a thriving night economy - has absolutely* zero* right to complain about the existing noise levels, but if a new venue subsequently opens up (or the volume suddenly soars from an existing venue), they have every right to be consulted about noise levels.

People have lived in those flats for years. Pop (and its party racket) has only just arrived.


----------



## T & P (Aug 24, 2016)

editor said:


> As a rule of thumb, I'd say that anyone moving next to a late night venue - or into a busy, bustling town centre with a thriving night economy - has absolutely* zero* right to complain about the existing noise levels, but if a new venue subsequently opens up (or the volume suddenly soars from an existing venue), they have every right to be consulted about noise levels.
> 
> People have lived in those flats for years. Pop (and its party racket) has only just arrived.


That's a fair point, and one I agree with. But IMO one can either believe the council's noise team findings are always beyond reproach and should be accepted, or believe they get it wrong in some cases. And if you believe they get it wrong sometimes, then it's not so clear cut who's in the right.

It is possible for a venue to pre-exist a block of flats and to happen to be playing music at unnecessarily high volume. In such hypothetical case it would be right for the council to step in, so long as their ruling is not too draconian.

That's why I wouldn't necessarily classify all cases where the venue precedes the flats as 'the venue is always right', and opposite cases as 'the complainants are always right'.


----------



## editor (Aug 25, 2016)

T & P said:


> But IMO one can either believe the council's noise team findings are always beyond reproach and should be accepted, or believe they get it wrong in some cases.


That's an impressively sized strawman right there. Not one person here has suggested that their findings 'are always beyond reproach'. However, _in this particular case_ it's pretty obvious to anyone who's walked past the venue that they've been taking the piss sometimes. My only surprise is that the complaints didn't come earlier.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> So are u saying the Council will go easy on Pop noise complaints as there is a corrupt relationship with the Council and the mge of Pop? That the Council want to make sure they will get there profit share and will make sure that there is no chance that this will go any further in case it hits Pops profits? So the local residents will just have to suffer because of a corrupt collusion between Pop and the Council.



I am not saying that will happen.

I'm suggesting it is a possibility.


----------



## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> It just does not work to put entertainment venues next to housing. "Mixed" use is the lastest fad in urban renaissance and all that bollox.....


And it doesn't work to put housing next to entertainment venues but as this is London with its limited space both will continue to happen.

People view places to rent and buy, not on a Friday or Saturday night but during the working week. It's not possible to know everything or even a fraction about where they are buying or renting. In my opinion somebody who moved to a property and subsequently finds their right to enjoy their property is compromised for whatever reason are fully entitled to excercise their rights  to complain about it. It's irrelevant _when_ they arrived. 

The usual response when I make this point is people should know more about where they are moving to. This shows a colossal ignorance of how the London property market works and is normally made by those with no experience of the particular rat race.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

I've always fully explored the local area when moving to a new house before making any commitment. Simply checking the distance from local clubs and pubs is fairly easy and can be achieved any time. Looking up those pubs and clubs and checking their events pages or FB pages tells you a bit them and their opening times/events etc....

If you buy into central Brixton, surrounded by late night attractions, then you only have yourself to blame if you are bothered by noise. 

Pop was landed on the neighbours, the neighbours didn't land on Pop. They have a right to be pissed off. If someone moved next door to the Dogstar and started whining about the racket, they can fuck off.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

We never got complaints from the Neighbours at the Canterbury.....mainly cos the neighbours were in there at the time...


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## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> We never got complaints from the Neighbours at the Canterbury.....mainly cos the neighbours were in there at the time...


I was going to say I could ask the neighbours what they thought about the noise Pop was making when I next see them in the pub except their pub was knocked to make way for more Pop.


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## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I've always fully explored the local area when moving to a new house before making any commitment. Simply checking the distance from local clubs and pubs is fairly easy and can be achieved any time. Looking up those pubs and clubs and checking their events pages or FB pages tells you a bit them and their opening times/events etc....


Your experience of this leisurely review of a potential property before you move is a lot different to mine.


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## editor (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I've always fully explored the local area when moving to a new house before making any commitment. Simply checking the distance from local clubs and pubs is fairly easy and can be achieved any time. Looking up those pubs and clubs and checking their events pages or FB pages tells you a bit them and their opening times/events etc....


Exactly. I've got no sympathy for people who can't even be bothered to take a look around the area (online and/or offline) they're moving into but then start trying to close down the well established venues next to them. That's classic Tory selfishness. If you've moved into a community then you should respect that community rather than trying to shut down places down that don't suit your _oh-so-important_ lifestyle.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> Your experience of this leisurely review of a potential property before you move is a lot different to mine.



I tend to get a bit put off if there's not a pub within 5 mins walk...


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2016)

I think it is a little naive to assume that because a venue is making a lot of noise without complaints that it's ok. In my experience there are a lot of vulnerable people out there who simply can't manage complaints (not just noise but other environmental issues which impact on quality of life). Some are afraid. Some can't handle the idea of conflict. Some really don't have the organisational skills required to complain successfully. Some don't even realise that they have a right to complain.

In terms of council housing, should a family simply be grateful that they have been housed next to a noisy pub? And stay quiet because the previous neighbours tolerated a lot of noise? Which perhaps only started a year before they arrived?


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

In terms of council housing the council have to be responsible when placing people and families. 

They are nor being responsible placing vulnerable or young families next to busy pubs/clubs.

I'm sure it happens, but it's the councils error of judgement. The vulnerable people/young families shouldn't be in that situation, and established businesses shouldn't be in that situation.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

But I agree that there will be circumstances where it's not as black and white...


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## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2016)

I find it interesting some posters on here feel qualified to pass judgement on the choices of those who rent or buy in the current market without ever having been in that position themselves.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

I've purchased in the current market, thanks.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

Wish I hadn't....12 months without work wasn't quite my plan upon moving into a new property....


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## Mr Retro (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I've purchased in the current market, thanks.


"Some posters"


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2016)

Mr Retro said:


> "Some posters"


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Wish I hadn't....12 months without work wasn't quite my plan upon moving into a new property....


And Brexit.


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## editor (Aug 25, 2016)

There's loads of posters here who aren't in the extremely fortunate position of being be able to own their own homes. Not sure what that has to do with not bothering to look at the area you're moving into and then trying to get long established local businesses closed down though.


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## teuchter (Aug 25, 2016)

Are there, in actual fact, any Brixton venues that have been shut down as a result of noise complaints? Rather than as a result of being more lucrative to the owners as housing or other uses?


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

Rushy said:


> And Brexit.



That's had a bigger impact on the jobseeking than the property tbh...

....especially salaries....


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> But I agree that there will be circumstances where it's not as black and white...


And of course the course of action required to ameliorate the nuisance is often not drastic. Close doors and use a particular entrance when music is being played. Reposition speakers. Move a smoking area. Not music related but one I recently negotiated with a venue is that they not tip their recycling bottles into the big metal waste bins after 11pm.

No doubt there will be some posters who it suits to believe that everyone who does not share their POV wants everything closed down.


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> That's had a bigger impact on the jobseeking than the property tbh...
> 
> ....especially salaries....


I'm sure. Everyone is holding their breath.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 25, 2016)

That noise of bottles landing in bins does my head in...


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## snowy_again (Aug 25, 2016)

How does the pop example relate to something like Off the Cuff - where there have been similar noise complaints from pre-existing residents (who might or might not wear jaunty hats)?


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> That noise of bottles landing in bins does my head in...


Yep. They said that it hasn't even occurred to them and was no problem to do in the morning instead.


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## T & P (Aug 25, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Are there, in actual fact, any Brixton venues that have been shut down as a result of noise complaints? Rather than as a result of being more lucrative to the owners as housing or other uses?


Good question. Many venues have been lost, but most of the ones I remember seemed to have been caused by land owners cashing in.

The Fridge Bar lost its licence but IIRC that was more to do with fighting and such problems than with noise.


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## Rushy (Aug 25, 2016)

T & P said:


> Good question. Many venues have been lost, but most of the ones I remember seemed to have been caused by land owners cashing in.
> 
> The Fridge Bar lost its licence but IIRC that was more to do with fighting and such problems than with noise.


Fridge bar got away with a lot of complaints though. In the end it was CPOd for the town hall.


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## 3Zeros (Aug 25, 2016)

The Agent of Change principal should be adopted by local councils. What is 'Agent of Change'... and why is it important? - Music Venue Trust . But I'd also like to see local councils taking a sensible approach to noise control when it comes to music. Living on CHL pretty close to the Dogstar I'd say the noise from traffic, sirens and people (especially the "shouters") is far more disturbing than any music from surrounding venues, but people wouldn't get far complaining about that to the council...

Pop is outdoors though, and under the Agent of Change, would be responsible for ensuring they controlled their noise levels. I was in Bristol recently at an outdoor party and they used directional speakers so that the crowd in front of the DJ booth got great levels of sound but there was very little "leakage". It's something that Pop should look to invest in.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> The number of complaints is immaterial.
> 
> The officers who deal with noise complaints would not have issued this letter without sufficient grounds. The letter says they have assessed the complaints. Which I take they have been down there themselves.
> 
> ...



From what I can make out - having investigated acceptable sound thresholds etc with regard to our community hall - the officers will have had to attend and meter the sound level in order to properly assess the complaints, so it - the sound output - will have to have exceeded the acceptable (as defined by local legislation) level.


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2016)

3Zeros said:


> The Agent of Change principal should be adopted by local councils. What is 'Agent of Change'... and why is it important? - Music Venue Trust . But I'd also like to see local councils taking a sensible approach to noise control when it comes to music. Living on CHL pretty close to the Dogstar I'd say the noise from traffic, sirens and people (especially the "shouters") is far more disturbing than any music from surrounding venues, but people wouldn't get far complaining about that to the council...
> 
> Pop is outdoors though, and under the Agent of Change, would be responsible for ensuring they controlled their noise levels. I was in Bristol recently at an outdoor party and they used directional speakers so that the crowd in front of the DJ booth got great levels of sound but there was very little "leakage". It's something that Pop should look to invest in.



This is an interesting one.

The owner of the Dogstar - former Atlantic now licensed for three story night club- put in an application to build flats where the beer garden is now.

I opposed this on basis that the applicant is running a late night venue and its not suitable place to build flats.  IMO he was trying to cash in on house prices buy trying to get planning application to build flats on the premises. 

He finally got the planning application agreed. As in theory there should be no noise problem if the venue is operating within its license agreements.

In theory.


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## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2016)

3Zeros said:


> The Agent of Change principal should be adopted by local councils. What is 'Agent of Change'... and why is it important? - Music Venue Trust . But I'd also like to see local councils taking a sensible approach to noise control when it comes to music. Living on CHL pretty close to the Dogstar I'd say the noise from traffic, sirens and people (especially the "shouters") is far more disturbing than any music from surrounding venues, but people wouldn't get far complaining about that to the council...
> 
> Pop is outdoors though, and under the Agent of Change, would be responsible for ensuring they controlled their noise levels. I was in Bristol recently at an outdoor party and they used directional speakers so that the crowd in front of the DJ booth got great levels of sound but there was very little "leakage". It's something that Pop should look to invest in.



The other problem is when applicants put in for one kind of development and it leads to another. 

The Prince of Wales is an example. Back when it was going to be a private club / hotel it got permission to use the roof terrace purely for the users of the hotel/ club.

This appeared reasonable and no one objected. 

Few years down the line its full on club on the roof. The owners realised the way the planning permission was worded they could run a club on the roof. Not in the spirit in which the original planning was sought for or given. But there you go .


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## snowy_again (Aug 31, 2016)

Council seeks architects' help to ‘regenerate’ Atlantic Road - Brixton Blog


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Council seeks architects' help to ‘regenerate’ Atlantic Road - Brixton Blog


Here's the source article:



> Lambeth Council is recruiting a design team to regenerate the Atlantic Road thoroughfare in Brixton, south London
> 
> The winner of the £50,000 contract will draw up a series of RIBA Stage 2 options to improve public realm along the busy market street (_pictured_) and nearby roads.
> 
> ...



Hunt begins for architect to revamp Brixton’s Atlantic Road

Personally I already find the area an attractive environment for walking, shopping and cycling, and as far as I can see it's been supporting the economic well-being of the area for decades. Network Rail could clean up their messy station entrance though.


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## teuchter (Aug 31, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Council seeks architects' help to ‘regenerate’ Atlantic Road - Brixton Blog


It's not clear whether they are considering changes to traffic management as potentially part of the brief.

If such things are proposed though, I expect to see opposition to it along the lines of it being pushed by the evil cyclist lobby and/or stealth gentrification. So, we'll likely see the arch units done up with new businesses (as that's going to happen anyway) and still be stuck with the congestion, traffic fumes etc. The worst of both worlds.


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## snowy_again (Aug 31, 2016)

Pop-up seawater bar opening in Brixton


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## snowy_again (Aug 31, 2016)

Ha, the truncated URL hides a different story.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Ha, the truncated URL hides a different story.


Nice idea but can't really see why it's at POP though. They'd reach a lot more people - of all backgrounds - if they took over one of the units along Atlantic Road. But maybe hosting it at trendy POP gives them more press coverage?


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## Crispy (Aug 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Personally I already find the area an attractive environment for walking, shopping and cycling


Atlantic Road is not a pleasant environment for walking and cycling IME. The pavements are narrow and uneven. The road is badly surfaced and is a slalom of unloading vans, illegall parked cars and pedestrians crossing between them.


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## teuchter (Aug 31, 2016)

Crispy said:


> Atlantic Road is not a pleasant environment for walking and cycling IME. The pavements are narrow and uneven. The road is badly surfaced and is a slalom of unloading vans, illegall parked cars and pedestrians crossing between them.


I agree.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

Crispy said:


> Atlantic Road is not a pleasant environment for walking and cycling IME. The pavements are narrow and uneven. The road is badly surfaced and is a slalom of unloading vans, illegall parked cars and pedestrians crossing between them.


I find it pleasant. I often stop for chats although it could clearly use a bit of clean up (although that's all a bit late now seeing as they've kicked out most of the traders I used). I doubt if I'll want to hang around the shiny new anytown vision they're set to unleash. It'll be like Brindisa x10, no doubt. 

Haven't cycled up it for a while, mind. No amount of shiny regeneration plans will stop illegally parked cars though. That's a different department/responsibility.


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## Angellic (Aug 31, 2016)

editor said:


> I find it pleasant. I often stop for chats although it could clearly use a bit of clean up (although that's all a bit late now seeing as they've kicked out most of the traders I used).
> 
> Haven't cycled up it for a while, mind. No amount of shiny regeneration plans will stop illegally parked cars though. That's a different department/responsibility.



It will if it includes pedestrianisation.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

Angellic said:


> It will if it includes pedestrianisation.


Won't be so good for cycling then though, will it?

(Where will all the cars go, btw?)


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 31, 2016)

Let's face it, the arches are mostly shabby and run down, but that might be considered as being charming or it might be considered as being a bit shit, but there's not really any reason for it, they could have been better maintained and looked after over the years. They are in need of a spruce up, but that need shouldn't really involve displacing long existing businesses with new ones prepared to pay much more for the space.

The roads are shit, it's a bit of a nightmare for crossing, although I am not dead yet, so it's not something that some yellow lines and a couple of zebra crossings wouldn't solve. If the road needs repair, then they should just repair it.

Seems to me that it's all been a bit neglected and now that neglect is being manipulated to provide opportunity to kick people out of their units and make more dough renting them out at an increased rate.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Seems to me that it's all been a bit neglected and now that neglect is being manipulated to provide opportunity to kick people out of their units and make more dough renting them out at an increased rate.


Yep.

Old fashioned community businesses out. Shiny on-trend cash-churning nu-businesses/chains/faux independents in. 
Goodbye affordable A&C, Hello upmarket Brinidisa.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 31, 2016)

I do think the business owners have a role to play in the shabbiness. Letting shop fronts become tatty is not good. The area never needed to become as run down as it is. More effort on their part might have slowed down Network Rails bid to turf them out on the excuse of refurbing the space.


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## snowy_again (Aug 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Nice idea but can't really see why it's at POP though. They'd reach a lot more people - of all backgrounds - if they took over one of the units along Atlantic Road. But maybe hosting it at trendy POP gives them more press coverage?



Or maybe they can't secure a short term lease / along Atlantic Road due to NR not wanting to face 'they kick us out, but they can run tasting sea water sessions' PR response, or the additional cost of overheads, security, fittings etc and it's easier to get a unit at Pop where that's all covered in one contract?


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## snowy_again (Aug 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Won't be so good for cycling then though, will it?
> 
> (Where will all the cars go, btw?)



It's a TFL cycle route so could be made semi pedestrianised like the top end of Railton Road - where vehicle traffic is access / delivery only and it's in theory not a through road - except for emergency vehicles. However that might worsen the grocers and other shops ability to wheel a shopping trolley of goods to a car parked in the loading bays.


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## teuchter (Aug 31, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The roads are shit, it's a bit of a nightmare for crossing, although I am not dead yet, so it's not something that some yellow lines and a couple of zebra crossings wouldn't solve. If the road needs repair, then they should just repair it.



If the road needs relaying, and you're going to install new zebra crossings, why not take the opportunity first to look into options for doing something else, which might make a deeper change for a similar amount of physical work, that could have a greater benefit per amount spent?

What you suggest is a sticking-plaster solution to the problem of that road being dominated by motor vehicles. Zebra crossings really just reinforce a perception that cars have priority, by defining limited zones where pedestrians have priority (and that's assuming that drivers pay proper attention to those crossings). It doesn't make things any friendlier to cyclists and the issue of narrow pavements remains.


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## Crispy (Aug 31, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> It's a TFL cycle route so could be made semi pedestrianised like the top end of Railton Road - where vehicle traffic is access / delivery only and it's in theory not a through road - except for emergency vehicles. However that might worsen the grocers and other shops ability to wheel a shopping trolley of goods to a car parked in the loading bays.


Any large-scale scheme like this would also require modification to surrounding roads to allow traffic to reach CHL from Brixton Road. Not simple at all. I predict widened pavements, all "parking" removed, a relocated zebra crossing and loading restricted to a handful of dedicated bays.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> Or maybe they can't secure a short term lease / along Atlantic Road due to NR not wanting to face 'they kick us out, but they can run tasting sea water sessions' PR response, or the additional cost of overheads, security, fittings etc and it's easier to get a unit at Pop where that's all covered in one contract?


Well maybe, but I note one new antique-y unit seems to have temporarily opened up (and this thing is a temporary pop up). I don't think anyone would begrudge a charity appearing for a short while anyway and no one seemed to object to the Brixton Pound taking over the old deli.

Not sure why you're tacking 'security' on to that list, btw.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I do think the business owners have a role to play in the shabbiness. Letting shop fronts become tatty is not good. The area never needed to become as run down as it is. More effort on their part might have slowed down Network Rails bid to turf them out on the excuse of refurbing the space.


As soon as Network Rail started to spread the uncertainty around, I doubt if many unit owners would be minded to spend money tarting their premises up. If only Lambeth had offered this money for tidying the place up before, eh?


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 31, 2016)

editor said:


> As soon as Network Rail started to spread the uncertainty around, I doubt if many unit owners would be minded to spend money tarting their premises up. If only Lambeth had offered this money for tidying the place up before, eh?



I understand that people wouldn't invest after finding out they were being moved out....but prior to that some of the shops were ropey looking...not all, but a good few.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I understand that people wouldn't invest after finding out they were being moved out....but prior to that some of the shops were ropey looking...not all, but a good few.


Maybe if they weren't being forcibly tapped for Brixton Bid taxes they'd have had a bit extra left left over for improvements.


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## Nanker Phelge (Aug 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Maybe if they weren't being forcibly tapped for Brixton Bid taxes they'd have had a bit extra left left over for improvements.



Ok - that gives an excuse from 2013.....but before then?


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## snowy_again (Aug 31, 2016)

editor said:


> Well maybe, but I note one new antique-y unit seems to have temporarily opened up (and this thing is a temporary pop up). I don't think anyone would begrudge a charity appearing for a short while anyway and no one seemed to object to the Brixton Pound taking over the old deli.
> 
> Not sure why you're tacking 'security' on to that list, btw.



But if you're only there for a short period of time to promote a particular charitable message as loudly as possible (and to snaffle a whole new set of young direct debit supporters), you wouldn't want the risk of exposing yourself to spending a week of unplanned and reactive PR fire fighting on an issue you're not really involved in would you? You'd even risk be accused of jumping in their graves. 

Security - as in opening and closing a shop each night / PII / other insurance; the stuff a charity doing a demonstration on personal safety will be keen to comply with.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

snowy_again said:


> But if you're only there for a short period of time to promote a particular charitable message as loudly as possible (and to snaffle a whole new set of young direct debit supporters), you wouldn't want the risk of exposing yourself to spending a week of unplanned and reactive PR fire fighting on an issue you're not really involved in would you? You'd even risk be accused of jumping in their graves.


What is this relentless campaign of "unplanned and reactive PR fire fighting" you're fantasising about here? Did Brixton Pound - which took over the much loved deli - face any of it?


snowy_again said:


> Security - as in opening and closing a shop each night / PII / other insurance; the stuff a charity doing a demonstration on personal safety will be keen to comply with.


Amazingly, loads of small businesses manage to accomplish this task every night without much of a fanfare, or the need to bang on about security, personal safety and insurance issues. You make closing a small, pop up unit sound like a remarkably complex task. It's not.


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## editor (Aug 31, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Ok - that gives an excuse from 2013.....but before then?


It was a strip of generally not very well off businesses struggling to survive. They looked OK to me, but then I'm not bothered if a shop exterior is all shiny and groovy.

Perhaps if Lambeth had fluffed £50,000 their way back then they could have made them look pretty.


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## CH1 (Sep 4, 2016)

Just to show that:
There were alternatives to demolishing a car park and importing shipping containers as supposedly ecological alternative
As time goes on commercial Brixton gets up my nose, whereas I fell spiritually closer to Peckham. 
What a pity that after my working life  has ended I am now locked into hipster vibrancy!


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## Rushy (Sep 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Just to show that:
> There were alternatives to demolishing a car park and importing shipping containers as supposedly ecological alternative
> As time goes on commercial Brixton gets up my nose, whereas I fell spiritually closer to Peckham.
> What a pity that after my working life  has ended I am now locked into hipster vibrancy!



I went to a classical concert there last year. It was fun although I would have enjoyed it far more if I'd actually enjoyed the particular music, which unusually had me heading for the exit before the end. The audience was, I'm afraid to tell you, rather hipstery. And of course, the entire site is now run by the team behind Pop.


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## CH1 (Sep 4, 2016)

Rushy said:


> I went to a classical concert there last year. It was fun although I would have enjoyed it far more if I'd actually enjoyed the particular music, which unusually had me heading for the exit before the end. The audience was, I'm afraid to tell you, rather hipstery. And of course, the entire site is now run by the team behind Pop.


Did you find your "experience" enhanced by trains going past on that steep curve making sounds like heavy duty angle-grinders?
I feel that Steve Reich is sort of light avant-guarde  so it didn't put me out too much this Saturday. It would be fatal in something like "The Lark Ascending" though.

I reckon Lib Peck and the Lambeth Councillors might benefit from a visit to "Derek Jarman's Garden" (as the toilets are so charmingly called). Could be a useful idea for Windrush Square perhaps?


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## Rushy (Sep 5, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Did you find your "experience" enhanced by trains going past on that steep curve making sounds like heavy duty angle-grinders?


To be honest, it fitted right in with the din!


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## teuchter (Sep 5, 2016)

As it happens I met one of the musicians involved in that, a few weeks ago in the Scottish Highlands.

He was quite into bringing classical music to the people, as it were, outside of concert halls etc. He was telling me about a thing they do in a pub in Sheffield if I remember correctly.

He wasn't far into his description of the slightly exotic place they were going to play in south London before I recognised it as the car park. I decided not to dampen his enthusiasm by telling him they'd be likely be playing to an entirely hipsterfied audience.


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## Rushy (Sep 5, 2016)

All said, I would recommend it if you like a bit of classical and are not precious about acoustics. A friend chose the show we went to and the music itself was way too out there for me. But there is lots of other stuff on and it was nevertheless fun and nicely informal.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 5, 2016)

This looks alright...


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## snowy_again (Sep 5, 2016)

^^ Dorchester Court residents too


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> This looks alright...


They occasionally put on some decent events at Pop but I would have rather seen them hosted at the Canterbury Arms, where the beer was affordable and the vibes a zillion times better.

A little bird tells me that the noise issues from Pop are nowhere near resolved too. Some neighbours are well pissed off by the racket coming out of the green oasis,  surrounded by, yet separate, from the hustle and bustle of city.


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

These are the people putting on that reggae event. 








HOME


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## Lead Belly (Sep 5, 2016)

I get that pig rhymes with rig and also by no means do you have to be rastafarian to listen to reggae but......
as it is forbidden to eat pork and there is a very heavy link between ratsafari and reggae is it not a slightly unfortunate choice to twin your hog roast business to a reggae sound system? (not to mention being _very _nu-Brixton)


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## Lead Belly (Sep 5, 2016)

presume they don't drop this very often


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

Lead Belly said:


> I get that pig rhymes with rig and also by no means do you have to be rastafarian to listen to reggae but......
> as it is forbidden to eat pork and there is a very heavy link between ratsafari and reggae is it not a slightly unfortunate choice to twin your hog roast business to a reggae sound system? (not to mention being _very _nu-Brixton)


You'd think so, yes.

Of if they hadn't twigged on to that obvious fact, you might have thought that someone at Pop would have pointed out the crass insensitivity of their offering.


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## teuchter (Sep 5, 2016)

Lead Belly said:


> I get that pig rhymes with rig and also by no means do you have to be rastafarian to listen to reggae but......
> as it is forbidden to eat pork and there is a very heavy link between ratsafari and reggae is it not a slightly unfortunate choice to twin your hog roast business to a reggae sound system? (not to mention being _very _nu-Brixton)


I hereby confess that I have frequently imbibed in alcohol whilst listening to reggae, sometimes in venues whose business revolves around the sale of that substance. I'm not sure whether this is more or less "unfortunate" than the pork scenario.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 5, 2016)

I hadn't noticed the hog roast tie in, but I'm not that fussed by it.

If they were flogging jerk chicken and curried goat they'd be criticised for cultural appropriation....

Both of which wouldn't be acceptable to any rasta following a strict ital diet.


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## T & P (Sep 5, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I hereby confess that I have frequently imbibed in alcohol whilst listening to reggae, sometimes in venues whose business revolves around the sale of that substance. I'm not sure whether this is more or less "unfortunate" than the pork scenario.


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## pesh (Sep 5, 2016)

where is the rig? 
don't say it got pigged


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> If they were flogging jerk chicken and curried goat they'd be criticised for cultural appropriation....


They already seem to be doing mighty fine on that score already. They're perfect for Pop Brixton.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 5, 2016)

If I nip along I shall deliver a full report...


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## Lead Belly (Sep 5, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I hereby confess that I have frequently imbibed in alcohol whilst listening to reggae, sometimes in venues whose business revolves around the sale of that substance. I'm not sure whether this is more or less "unfortunate" than the pork scenario.



Touché! A huge pig on a spit though at a reggae do? 

The bigger point to me though is this is Pop at it's worst, the so-called community project's reggae night isn't one involving one of the many local sound systems that have been present in the area for years and years but a new trendy reggae hog roast that some in the local reggae listening community could take offense to.


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## snowy_again (Sep 5, 2016)

People like Keith Lawrence?


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 5, 2016)

Full event details:

Pig&Rig presents ‘Reggae n That’ – an all day summer showcase celebrating the rich history & diversity of reggae. From Studio 1 originals to current producers & releases, ska & rocksteady to heavy roots & hypnotic dub they’ll be no corner untouched! With an exceptional line up this is event is not to be missed.

Line Up:

Mr Faso Rootikal

Born and bred in Apulia, the part of Italy defined as “The Italian Jamaica” , Growing up listening to a variety of black music, with reggae music founding his principal passion. Moving to London where the legendary Earl Gateshead (Trojan Sound System selector) involved him in a monthly night called ROOTIKAL, where David Rodigan has been a regular guest for 2 years. In the last 2 years he has shared the stage with reggae icons like Alborosie, Chronixx & Protoje as well as mashing up the sound with Aba Shanti & Channel One. A regular on reggae-dub circuit.

Dub Organiser Sound system

Feat: Keith Lawrence & Stu

Playing the finest Jamaican Revival Music ,from the last 5 decades, straight from the 45! Rockstone selections from Dub Organiser's 'Rankin' General' Keith Lawrence (Mi-Soul Radio/ Muzik-Ed records) and 'Ital' Stu Tolhurst

100% Authentic roots and culture guaranteed brought to you in fine style on Dub Organiser Hi-Fi. Step in style all the while!

Additional Selectas:

Reuben Vibes (Kwaku)

Mr.Gibbon (Pig&Rig)

Melton John (Wizard Sleeve)

Froding Blageez (Pig&Rig)

Princess Jobe


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## teuchter (Sep 5, 2016)

[edit]

snowy/Nanker beat me to it.


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

Lead Belly said:


> Touché! A huge pig on a spit though at a reggae do?
> 
> The bigger point to me though is this is Pop at it's worst, the so-called community project's reggae night isn't one involving one of the many local sound systems that have been present in the area for years and years but a new trendy reggae hog roast that some in the local reggae listening community could take offense to.


And there you have it in a nutshell. There's no shortage of - shall we say - more credible reggae soundsystems in the area who have been crafting their talent for years - but instead Pop puts on some jolly nice young chaps from Norfolk with a trendy pig roast.


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## Rushy (Sep 5, 2016)

Maybe Pop just took a look at the 414's experience of authentic and credible reggae nights. Didn't 414's decide to avoid them because too much trouble usually followed? And when someone convinced them that they should give it another go, someone got shot, they almost lost their licence and got lumbered with scanners? About three years ago, iirc. To be honest if it's too tricky for an experienced club like 414, Pop would have no chance.


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## T & P (Sep 5, 2016)

Are Pop the only venue in Brixton "overlooking" local talent and booking artists from outside the area? Are they supposed to use people from the local community at 100% of events hosted at the place? And if not, is it such a terrible offence that they have on this occasion? Or just another go at trying to have a go at them at every single possible opportunity, not matter how straw-clutching it can be (notice the finger of blame swiftly being pointed elsewhere as soon as the 'insensitive food' argument was countered)?


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

If anyone wants actually authentic reggae nights - the kind of thing put on for the local community and not trendy, pork guzzling tourists - they can be found all over Brixton. Hootananny, for example. has been putting on reggae nights - often several times a week - for years on end.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 5, 2016)

I don't think they are overlooking local talent. A good few locals DJs have played there, including some prominent faces from Reclaim Brixton...


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> Are Pop the only venue in Brixton "overlooking" local talent and booking artists from outside the area? Are they supposed to use people from the local community at 100% of events hosted at the place? And if not, is it such a terrible offence that they have on this occasion? Or just another go at trying to have a go at them at every single possible opportunity, not matter how straw-clutching it can be (notice the finger of blame swiftly being pointed elsewhere as soon as the 'insensitive food' argument was countered)?


Wouldn't it be amazing if they put on some events for the_ actual community located outside their door?  _Probably too edgy, though. Thank heavens for the tens and tens of thousands of pounds spent on security!


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## Lead Belly (Sep 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> Are Pop the only venue in Brixton "overlooking" local talent and booking artists from outside the area? Are they supposed to use people from the local community at 100% of events hosted at the place? And if not, is it such a terrible offence that they have on this occasion? Or just another go at trying to have a go at them at every single possible opportunity, not matter how straw-clutching it can be (notice the finger of blame swiftly being pointed elsewhere as soon as the 'insensitive food' argument was countered)?



I was acknowledging the alcohol analogy as tbh I hadn't considered it when I posted and it just about holds up. The point I was making though is that a lot of Jamaican people, rasta or not, don't eat pork so to me the concept is clumsy. Clumsy could also apply to numerous other Pop projects over the last year though imo that would be putting it very nicely.
If they removed the mention of community from any of their marketing and paid for the land then they can book whoever and put on whatever events they want however as a community project they should be open to scrutiny as they are in this thread. Despite a smattering of local acts asked to perform this is clearly not a community event and to my mind is aimed squarely at one specific demographic while paying no heed whatsoever to the very long established reggae community in the area.


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## T & P (Sep 5, 2016)

editor said:


> Wouldn't it be amazing if they put on some events for the_ actual community located outside their door?  _


 Do they not? Ever?


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## elmpp (Sep 5, 2016)

You've got to be seriously jaded to think about roast is trendy

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> Do they not? Ever?


Can't say I've ever seen anything aimed at the community that can be found directly outside their door. Perhaps you could furnish me with the details all such events they have put on?


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

elmpp said:


> You've got to be seriously jaded to think about roast is trendy


Most regular street stalls don't get written about in Esquire Magazine, neither do its owners get labelled as the "Beautiful Bastians of Pork," neither do they appear in 'trendspotting' websites like  Cool Hunting Magazine and Cooler Lifestyle Magazine so yes, I'd call that trendy.

PS Please fix that sig.


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## T & P (Sep 5, 2016)

editor said:


> Can't say I've ever seen anything aimed at the community that can be found directly outside their door. Perhaps you could furnish me with all the events they have put on?


I must have looked at their website about three times so I'm not particularly versed in their event history, but just by going by what have been posted in here alone, there have been a good number of free and low-cost events ranging from egg hunts, sport activities and other such gigs for kids and families, to live music for grown ups.

I'm not entirely sure why you'd think the local community would be excluded from such events?


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> I must have looked at their website about three times so I'm not particularly versed in their event history, but just by going by what have been posted in here alone, there have been a good number of free and low-cost events ranging from egg hunts, sport activities and other such gigs for kids and families, to live music for grown ups.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure why you'd think the local community would be excluded from such events?


I'm obviously talking about music events, not egg hunts. Do you even know what the community that spends time in Brixton Station Road looks like? Try taking a walk along that stretch from Brixton Road to Pop - any time of day - and then go into Pop and see if you can spot the difference.

Mind you, I don't expect they'll be there for long anyway seeing as the entire stretch is being 'redeveloped', with that particular community pushed out to make way for Planet Vibrant.


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## T & P (Sep 5, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm obviously talking about music events, not egg hunts. Do you even know what the community that spends time in Brixton Station Road looks like? Try taking a walk along that stretch from Brixton Road to Pop - any time of day - and then go into Pop and see if you can spot the difference.
> 
> Mind you, I don't expect they'll be there for long seeing as the entire stretch is being 'redeveloped' (gentrified), with that community pushed out to make way for Planet Vibrant.


I don't possess the powers to know the musical tastes of people just by looking at them, and I'd be amazed if anyone does. Nor that it is inconceivable that folks might like more than one type of music.

At this point I bow out because such line of argument can only get sillier and sillier.


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## editor (Sep 5, 2016)

T & P said:


> I don't possess the powers to know the musical tastes of people just by looking at them, and I'd be amazed if anyone does. Nor that it is inconceivable that folks might like more than one type of music.
> 
> At this point I bow out because such line of argument can only get sillier and sillier.


You _really_ can't spot the obvious general difference in the demographic from those people directly outside Pop Brixton and those grazing inside? Unbelievable.


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## SpamMisery (Sep 6, 2016)

Frock Swap

Saturday 8th October | 12:00 - 17:00

Bring any unwanted clothes and swap them for new ones! (Donations of clothes can be collected in advance if you can't attend on the day).

In aid of the Baytree Women's Centre, Brixton


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## CH1 (Sep 8, 2016)

Is this a free Pop Up to raise money for RNLI? Or is it on a par with chuggers who haunt Brixton tube station and the Butterfly precinct at Camberwell - on commission?

A pop-up sea water bar is coming to Brixton


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## discobastard (Sep 8, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Is this a free Pop Up to raise money for RNLI? Or is it on a par with chuggers who haunt Brixton tube station and the Butterfly precinct at Camberwell - on commission?
> 
> A pop-up sea water bar is coming to Brixton


It's a PR exercise for a charity to boost fundraising and to raise awareness of the dangers of open water (admittedly to a bunch of people who aren't that near any open water).

ETA: though exposure to a lot of people who may well be tempted to do the H20 fundraising challenge.  And that can only be a good thing.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 11, 2016)

So I popped down to Pop yesterday for the Reggae all dayer thing. I'll admit I was really looking forward to the Hog Roast. Sadly there was no Hog Roast. It was just the DJs. They played alright.

The weather was poor, so I'll accept that this did dampen the atmosphere, but that aside, it was desperately soulless. If I had to find any positives it was that the record shop was nicely stocked and the prices mostly incredibly low (some items they felt were rarities where ridiculously over-priced) and there was a good amount of greenery; some lovely plants and fruit and veg growing healthily among the shipping container blandscape. 

I was deeply saddened to look down upon Pop Fields, down upon the space that was The Canterbury Arms, down upon the space where we would set up decks, where the dance floor used to be, and the back bar and the toilets etc. It was just dead. It lacked character. It was deathly dull.

As for the overall offering, I suppose there is a nice choice of food and drink, and it isn't as outrageously priced as some might suggest. That said, those working there seemed to have zero passion or care or interest in being there. Everyone from the guy in the record shop to the security and those cooking and selling the food seemed to be miserable as sin. I thought the idea of a 'pop up' was that it was fresh and exciting and that all these 'foodie' ideas were supposed to be delivered with vim and vigour, not with all the enthusiasm of a toilet cleaner on a Monday morning after a weekend festival.

We ventured upstairs and I can honestly say that I have never felt so alienated by a crowd in Brixton ever. It was like stepping into another world. A world of privilege and wealth. My GF was the only person of colour in the whole venue that wasn't serving white people food and drink, and I was really uncomfortable with the overall atmosphere of consumption and greed. It was messy and dirty and people were just discarding litter, and generally rude and ignorant. They pushed by us, or through us, to get from place to place, and generally had utter disregard for anything but their own needs.

I didn't want to feel like that, but it I did and it was really quite unattractive.

On Friday night after I finished DJing I was confronted and abused by two young men on the bus. They were cross at me for being white, for being in Brixton and gentrifying their area. While they were a right pair of twats, I kinda got their attitude after wandering around pop. I could see that I looked like the enemy. I think it was clear to them quite quickly that I wasn't scared of them, and being called a 'rich batty' wasn't gonna make me run away, but I walked away feeling more empathy for them than any one of the entitled folk spending time at Pop on Saturday afternoon.

I gave it a shot, and I've tried to remain as balanced as I can about it, but if I am honest, it's really quite a horrid space populated, when I was there, by shallow and ignorant people.


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## Gramsci (Sep 11, 2016)

discobastard said:


> It's a PR exercise for a charity to boost fundraising and to raise awareness of the dangers of open water (admittedly to a bunch of people who aren't that near any open water).
> 
> ETA: though exposure to a lot of people who may well be tempted to do the H20 fundraising challenge.  And that can only be a good thing.



RNLI have rescue boats for the Thames. Surprisingly its one of the busiest RNLI areas. As someone who comes from a seaport I usually give a bit of money to the RNLI when I see them out asking for donations in London.

There is a lifeboat station next to Waterloo bridge. As this article says its not something most Londoners notice.In a seaport, like I originally come from, the RNLI lifeboat and the volunteers who man them have a higher profile and prestige.



> How many of the thousands of people lining the embankments who witness our progress downstream knew there were lifeboats on the Thames in London – and have been since 2002? The answer is probably very few. According to a YouGov poll conducted in 2012 only 16 per cent of Londoners were aware that the RNLI, which celebrates its 190th birthday this year, operates a search and rescue service on the river through the capital. It is a disappointing finding for a charity that uses a largely volunteer workforce and receives not a penny from central or local government, relying almost exclusively on public donations and legacies


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 11, 2016)

It kinda sums up the clientele when they have to be asked not to piss in a planter.....which isn't even in a discreet, out the way space....


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## CH1 (Sep 11, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> those working there seemed to have zero passion or care or interest in being there


and zero hours contracts?

Sorry about the trouble on the bus.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 11, 2016)

Sadly, the bus incident was the first of its kind I have experienced in 25 years of Brixton living. I hope to go another 25 before it happens again...


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## editor (Sep 11, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> We ventured upstairs and I can honestly say that I have never felt so alienated by a crowd in Brixton ever. It was like stepping into another world. A world of privilege and wealth. My GF was the only person of colour in the whole venue that wasn't serving white people food and drink, and I was really uncomfortable with the overall atmosphere of consumption and greed. It was messy and dirty and people were just discarding litter, and generally rude and ignorant. They pushed by us, or through us, to get from place to place, and generally had utter disregard for anything but their own needs.
> 
> I didn't want to feel like that, but it I did and it was really quite unattractive.


I've tried giving the place a go many times and I've found the same thing every time. It's just a soulless palace of consumption for the haves, with precious little real connection to the area it sits in. It could be anywhere. That would normally be fine, but this is supposed to be a community focused venture that has been gifted to Pop Brixton rent free.


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## Ergo Proxy (Sep 12, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> On Friday night after I finished DJing I was confronted and abused by two young men on the bus. They were cross at me for being white, for being in Brixton and gentrifying their area. While they were a right pair of twats, I kinda got their attitude after wandering around pop. I could see that I looked like the enemy. I think it was clear to them quite quickly that I wasn't scared of them, and being called a 'rich batty' wasn't gonna make me run away, but I walked away feeling more empathy for them than any one of the entitled folk spending time at Pop on Saturday afternoon.



WTF is this shit?

You feel empathy for people trying to see if you''re week/scared of them so that they can rob you?

Seriously?


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 12, 2016)

How it went from some angry young men sounding off on a packed night bus to people trying to rob me is beyond me.

Please expand?


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## T & P (Sep 12, 2016)

I hadn't noticed your post until it got quoted above, Nanker Phelge , but I'm a bit surprised at it tbh. You generally come across as a fairly balanced poster, and I would not expect you being sympathetic in any measure to the attitude you describe. I'm not talking about hostility towards gentrification, and not even towards Pop. But the prejudice towards those who visit, or indeed towards anyone who just 'looks wrong' it is well dodgy IMO.

I happened to briefly visit Pop on Saturday at lunchtime. I didn't think much of it or its atmosphere as it happens, but I did pay a bit of attention to the patrons (something I would never normally do) with this thread in mind. All I saw was normal human beings. Some races and fashion styles were certainly more prominent than others, but that was about it. The patrons I saw were about as guilty of the social ills affecting Brixton and society as a whole as my cats, and condoning any kind of hostility or finger pointing towards anyone because of their looks is an unhealthy attitude.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 12, 2016)

That's how I felt. That's what I experienced. You don't have to like it or agree.

I tried to find some positives. I just really struggled.


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## Gramsci (Sep 14, 2016)

T & P said:


> I hadn't noticed your post until it got quoted above, Nanker Phelge , but I'm a bit surprised at it tbh. You generally come across as a fairly balanced poster, and I would not expect you being sympathetic in any measure to the attitude you describe. I'm not talking about hostility towards gentrification, and not even towards Pop. But the prejudice towards those who visit, or indeed towards anyone who just 'looks wrong' it is well dodgy IMO.
> 
> I happened to briefly visit Pop on Saturday at lunchtime. I didn't think much of it or its atmosphere as it happens, but I did pay a bit of attention to the patrons (something I would never normally do) with this thread in mind. All I saw was normal human beings. Some races and fashion styles were certainly more prominent than others, but that was about it. The patrons I saw were about as guilty of the social ills affecting Brixton and society as a whole as my cats, and condoning any kind of hostility or finger pointing towards anyone because of their looks is an unhealthy attitude.



From what I have seen of Nanker Phelge on this forum he is a balanced poster. He makes up his own mind on issues here. Now he has done a post that surprises you. Thats because he is independent minded. The impression I got from his post is that he would have rather have had a more positive evening there. He was not going there to look for faults. 

It was a considered and well written post of his experience of an evening at Pop. Its not how you see Pop. If you don’t agree with it that’s up to you.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 14, 2016)

Perhaps I'm just not one of the 'normal human beings'?


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## Lucy Fur (Sep 14, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Perhaps I'm just not one of the 'normal human beings'?


Who wants to be 'normal'


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 14, 2016)

I don't know who that is?


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## Lucy Fur (Sep 14, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I don't know who that is?


Owen Smith, tosser thats standing againt Corbyn, recently declared he was 'just a normal'.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 14, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Owen Smith, tosser thats standing againt Corbyn, recently declared he was 'just a normal'.



Oh, he looks different there. Like a baddie from a film.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 14, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Oh, he looks different there. Like a baddie from a film.



He'd be a fucking shite baddie. He'd be doing the bragging speech about how the other baddies failed but you'll never escape from Owen Smith and the hero would already be in the boat shagging over the credits, while his den was falling on his head.


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## Rushy (Sep 14, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> So I popped down to Pop yesterday for the Reggae all dayer thing. I'll admit I was really looking forward to the Hog Roast. Sadly there was no Hog Roast. It was just the DJs. They played alright.
> 
> The weather was poor, so I'll accept that this did dampen the atmosphere, but that aside, it was desperately soulless. If I had to find any positives it was that the record shop was nicely stocked and the prices mostly incredibly low (some items they felt were rarities where ridiculously over-priced) and there was a good amount of greenery; some lovely plants and fruit and veg growing healthily among the shipping container blandscape.
> 
> ...


Surely your experience on the bus during which you, based on no more than how you looked whilst simply going about a normal activity, were taken for a gentrifying enemy deserving of attack is enough to make you question whether your own feelings about the "shallow, ignorant and privileged" people you saw drinking pints after work in the sunshine were, truly held as they doubtless are, particularly reliable?


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 14, 2016)

I didn't just judge them on the way they looked to me.

"It was messy and dirty and people were just discarding litter, and generally rude and ignorant. They pushed by us, or through us, to get from place to place, and generally had utter disregard for anything but their own needs."

I judged them on their behaviour too...

I also commented on the lack of people of colour, and how different the demographic inside pop was to that of outside (while I was there). These were observations. My observations.

I didn't see anybody drinking pints after work in the sunshine. It was Saturday and it was raining.

How the young men on the bus saw me is for them to explain. I can't speak for them, but I associated more with them than anyone I saw at Pop.

Maybe if I'd gone a different day, I'd feel a different way, but I didn't and I don't.


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## T & P (Sep 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> From what I have seen of Nanker Phelge on this forum he is a balanced poster. He makes up his own mind on issues here. Now he has done a post that surprises you. Thats because he is independent minded. The impression I got from his post is that he would have rather have had a more positive evening there. He was not going there to look for faults.
> 
> It was a considered and well written post of his experience of an evening at Pop. Its not how you see Pop. If you don’t agree with it that’s up to you.


I was not referring to his experience at Pop. I was referring to his comment about understanding the attitutde of the two racist abusive bullies he encountered on the street. Nobody is "the enemy" or guilty of anything just because of the colour of their skin, or their looks.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 14, 2016)

I don't want to get into the whole can black people be racist against white, but I don't think they were racist. They were angry kids with big mouths, who were not that clever, who I encountered on a night bus.

And history has shown time and again that people are deemed 'the enemy' and 'guilty' of all sorts because of the colour of their skin and their looks.


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## SpamMisery (Sep 14, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> can black people be racist against white.



Is that a thing?


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 14, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Is that a thing?



Depends who you ask.


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## Gramsci (Sep 14, 2016)

T & P said:


> I was not referring to his experience at Pop. I was referring to his comment about understanding the attitutde of the two racist abusive bullies he encountered on the street. Nobody is "the enemy" or guilty of anything just because of the colour of their skin, or their looks.



You did refer to his experience of Pop in your post. 

NP was saying he could understand where the two who abused him on the bus were coming from after his experience of a visit to Pop. He was not condoning there behaviour. He was attempting to understand it. Which is a completely different thing. Its why NP is a "fairly balanced poster". 

I sometimes get criticised here for taking a straightforward line on issues. Told that life is not that simple. NP puts up a thoughtful post not taking a simple straightforward line. A post based on his observation of a night in Brixton and reflecting on it. And he is getting criticised here for it.


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## editor (Sep 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> You did refer to his experience of Pop in your post.
> 
> NP was saying he could understand where the two who abused him on the bus were coming from after his experience of a visit to Pop. He was not condoning there behaviour. He was attempting to understand it. Which is a completely different thing. Its why NP is a "fairly balanced poster".
> 
> I sometimes get criticised here for taking a straightforward line on issues. Told that life is not that simple. NP puts up a thoughtful post not taking a simple straightforward line. A post based on his observation of a night in Brixton and reflecting on it. And he is getting criticised here for it.


That's because He Dared Criticise Pop. 

It's clear to anyone who's lived in Brixton for more than a month the place is - on the whole - primarily focused at a fairly narrow demographic that is considerably different to the community that surrounds it, both in terms of income, wealth and diversity. 

A stroll past the buzzing street life of Brixton Station Road en route to the place makes that abundantly clear. Walking into Pop is like entering a different postcode in a more affluent area. And, as I've said before, that wouldn't be that much of a problem - this kind of thing happens all over London - except for the fact that it was loudly trumpeted as a community-focused project that was gifted a prime slab of land totally rent free. 

I could be kinder to it if it actually ended up generating a load of money to give back to the community, but that seems a forlorn hope.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 14, 2016)

I did like the records shop.

....and the range of food.


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## editor (Sep 14, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I did like the records shop.
> 
> ....and the range of food.


There's some decent units in there and some good people work there too - I know quite a few of 'em. But, collectively, it's just a pointless stacked pile of trendy nu-Brixton _meh _masquerading as some sort of real-world community effort.


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## T & P (Sep 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> You did refer to his experience of Pop in your post.
> 
> NP was saying he could understand where the two who abused him on the bus were coming from after his experience of a visit to Pop. He was not condoning there behaviour. He was attempting to understand it. Which is a completely different thing. Its why NP is a "fairly balanced poster".
> 
> I sometimes get criticised here for taking a straightforward line on issues. Told that life is not that simple. NP puts up a thoughtful post not taking a simple straightforward line. A post based on his observation of a night in Brixton and reflecting on it. And he is getting criticised here for it.


No, you've misunderstood my post and I made it very clear from the off that my observation wasn't about his opinion of Pop. Read it again.


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## SpamMisery (Sep 14, 2016)

Lets be fair, its not exactly "rent free"; it's a 50% profit share.


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## Nanker Phelge (Sep 15, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> Lets be fair.



Never on this thread.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 15, 2016)

T & P said:


> No, you've misunderstood my post and I made it very clear from the off that my observation wasn't about his opinion of Pop. Read it again.



This is not clear from your post:



> I hadn't noticed your post until it got quoted above, Nanker Phelge , but I'm a bit surprised at it tbh. You generally come across as a fairly balanced poster, and I would not expect you being sympathetic in any measure to the attitude you describe. I'm not talking about hostility towards gentrification, and not even towards Pop. But the prejudice towards those who visit, or indeed towards anyone who just 'looks wrong' it is well dodgy IMO.
> 
> I happened to briefly visit Pop on Saturday at lunchtime. I didn't think much of it or its atmosphere as it happens, but I did pay a bit of attention to the patrons (something I would never normally do) with this thread in mind. All I saw was normal human beings. Some races and fashion styles were certainly more prominent than others, but that was about it. The patrons I saw were about as guilty of the social ills affecting Brixton and society as a whole as my cats, and condoning any kind of hostility or finger pointing towards anyone because of their looks is an unhealthy attitude.



If its clear your observation was not about his opinion about Pop then the second paragraph is superfluous to your observation. Its an implied criticism of what NP is saying in his original post. I dont see how to read it any other way. You are linking the incident on the bus to Pop.


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## Baron (Sep 15, 2016)




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## Gramsci (Sep 15, 2016)

Baron said:


>




Wrong thread.


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## T & P (Sep 16, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> This is not clear from your post:
> 
> 
> 
> If its clear your observation was not about his opinion about Pop then the second paragraph is superfluous to your observation. Its an implied criticism of what NP is saying in his original post. I dont see how to read it any other way. You are linking the incident on the bus to Pop.


No. I'm simply suggesting that it is wrong judge people because of their looks and colour of skin, and completely impossible to know whether they are responsbile for anything bad (in this case, gentrification) just by what they are wearing. My comments were in regard to Nanker understanding the attitude of the people who verbally abused him on a bus. There is nothing to understand about their act. They were a couple of bullies who launched an unprovoked verbal attack on a stranger because of the way he looked, and the colour of his skin. They deserve no understanding whatsoever.


----------



## editor (Sep 16, 2016)

T & P said:


> No. I'm simply suggesting that it is wrong judge people because of their looks and colour of skin


Wow. Really? That's so enlightening.


----------



## T & P (Sep 16, 2016)

editor said:


> Wow. Really? That's so enlightening.


I'm glad you agree with the sentiment.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 16, 2016)

T & P said:


> No. I'm simply suggesting that it is wrong judge people because of their looks and colour of skin



Wow.

Do you see everybody as the same.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 16, 2016)

T & P said:


> They deserve no understanding whatsoever.



Yeah.....cos that helps get them back to 'normality'


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 16, 2016)

T & P said:


> No. I'm simply suggesting that it is wrong judge people because of their looks and colour of skin, and completely impossible to know whether they are responsbile for anything bad (in this case, gentrification) just by what they are wearing. My comments were in regard to Nanker understanding the attitude of the people who verbally abused him on a bus. There is nothing to understand about their act. They were a couple of bullies who launched an unprovoked verbal attack on a stranger because of the way he looked, and the colour of his skin. They deserve no understanding whatsoever.



So can you confirm you were not making a value judgement of NP opinion of one evening at Pop? Here are the critical bits:



> We ventured upstairs and I can honestly say that I have never felt so alienated by a crowd in Brixton ever. It was like stepping into another world. A world of privilege and wealth. My GF was the only person of colour in the whole venue that wasn't serving white people food and drink, and I was really uncomfortable with the overall atmosphere of consumption and greed. It was messy and dirty and people were just discarding litter, and generally rude and ignorant. They pushed by us, or through us, to get from place to place, and generally had utter disregard for anything but their own needs.
> 
> I didn't want to feel like that, but it I did and it was really quite unattractive



And:



> I gave it a shot, and I've tried to remain as balanced as I can about it, but if I am honest, it's really quite a horrid space populated, when I was there, by shallow and ignorant people.




Your post was purely about the incident on the bus. That NP should not have been abused. I dont think NP should have been abused on the bus. Neither does NP. He says they were twats.

I am therefore reading to much into your original post. That your post was purely about the abuse NP got on the bus. Nothing to do with his comments on Pop. Which you have not voiced an opinion of here. Am I correct on this? 

You , if that is the case, have no opinion either way of NP reporting of his experience of an evening at Pop as this was not what your post was about and I got it wrong.

Am I correct that is your position?

Or are you saying NP was wrong to suggest an understanding where the two lads on the bus were coming from?

In which case you are criticising NP.

The second paragraph is implicity imo critical of NPs observation:



> All I saw was normal human beings. Some races and fashion styles were certainly more prominent than others, but that was about it. The patrons I saw were about as guilty of the social ills affecting Brixton and society as a whole as my cats, and condoning any kind of hostility or finger pointing towards anyone because of their looks is an unhealthy attitude.



So lets get this straight. You are not implying that NPs observations on one evening at Pop demonstrate "an unhealthy attitude".
.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 17, 2016)

Hanging is too good for 'em.


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Hanging is too good for 'em.


I popped in yesterday. The clientele looked pretty much the same as it always it does (i.e. younger, whiter and more well off than the community drinking and eating in the less trendy cafes and stalls in Station Road outside).


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 17, 2016)

They are all white and happy.

Don't judge their priviledge and desire to be in a safe place away from the savage wastelands outside the fortress of wealth and world foods.


----------



## cuppa tee (Sep 17, 2016)

editor said:


> I popped in yesterday. The clientele looked pretty much the same as it always it does (i.e. younger, whiter and more well off than the community drinking and eating in the less trendy cafes and stalls in Station Road outside).
> 
> View attachment 92665



nice handbag


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 17, 2016)

She better watch out that someone who deseves no understanding doesn't nick it.


----------



## T & P (Sep 17, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> So can you confirm you were not making a value judgement of NP opinion of one evening at Pop? Here are the critical bits:
> 
> And:
> 
> ...


Christ, you must have been really bored to even contemplate writing that essay late on a Friday night.

I do not particularly wish to engage in a phrase-by-phrase forensic examination of Nanker's post, but as you seem so willing to dissect mine in search of any possible grounds for an attack/ search for inconsistencies, I will have to do so to some degree- much to the joy of the entire forum, no doubt.




> They were cross at me for being white, for being in Brixton and gentrifying their area. While they were a right pair of twats, I kinda got their attitude after wandering around pop. I could see that I looked like the enemy. I think it was clear to them quite quickly that I wasn't scared of them, and being called a 'rich batty' wasn't gonna make me run away, but I walked away feeling more empathy for them than any one of the entitled folk spending time at Pop on Saturday afternoon.



My observation that so seems to have angered and confused you is that there should be no understanding towards a blatantly prejudiced and racist unjustified attack on a person. There is absolutely no justification for it- end of. And going from there, there is also little justification for labelling anyone 'the enemy' simply because the way they look. And that includes people who happened to be inside Pop Brixton on the day of Nanker's visit.

It could of course be that the majority of people who Nanker observed were actually gentrifiers, and guilty of the ills affecting Brixton. But I'd be curious to know how he could have possibly known that just by looking at them.

If we are suggesting it is possible to identify 'enemies' of ordinary, decent Brixton residents simply by looking at them, I'd be interested to learn what their identifying characteristics might be. Is it the clothes they wear? Their drink of choice? Their accents? If one of those Pop patrons walked into The Albert on a Friday night, would they still clearly stick out as 'the enemy'?

I do not think a pair of abusive bullies deserve more empathy than a group of people whose only crime is, as far as I can tell from Nanker's narrative, have the wrong look about them- whichever look that might have been. If you believe that consists unfair criticism, fair enough. But it certainly has fuck all to do with Pop Brixton.


----------



## editor (Sep 17, 2016)

Jesus.


----------



## wurlycurly (Sep 17, 2016)

T & P said:


> Christ, you must have been really bored to even contemplate writing that essay late on a Friday night.
> 
> I do not particularly wish to engage in a phrase-by-phrase forensic examination of Nanker's post, but as you seem so willing to dissect mine in search of any possible grounds for an attack/ search for inconsistencies, I will have to do so to some degree- much to the joy of the entire forum, no doubt.
> 
> ...



 Step away from the internet now mate. You need a break.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 17, 2016)

One day we'll look back on all this and laugh....


----------



## elmpp (Sep 18, 2016)

i blame editor


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2016)

elmpp said:


> i blame editor


Take a month off. On me.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 18, 2016)

Oops


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 18, 2016)

I blame editor too


----------



## T & P (Sep 18, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> One day we'll look back on all this and laugh....


And see the enormous irony of it all as well, hopefully.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 18, 2016)

I wonder what form that might take.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 19, 2016)

At the LJ masterplan consultation on Saturday heard comments about Pop. The Council got funding from GLA to do a work based "Pop" at the Farm. "Learning from the mistakes of Pop" was one. 

The sooner Pop finishes the better.


----------



## trabuquera (Sep 19, 2016)

I've got a nasty feeling that whatever permanent structure replaces Pop will be no more devoted to the needs of the local community ... especially if it's to be set in a newly-spiffed-up chainstore-safe yup-approved Station Road. Believe it or not days may come when people look back on Pop as the lesser evil.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2016)

trabuquera said:


> I've got a nasty feeling that whatever permanent structure replaces Pop will be no more devoted to the needs of the local community ... especially if it's to be set in a newly-spiffed-up chainstore-safe yup-approved Station Road. Believe it or not days may come when people look back on Pop as the lesser evil.


Oh, I'm sure whatever follows will be _at least _as shit as Pop, but Pop will certainly have played its part in 'softening up' the area for something 'nice' to follow.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 19, 2016)

Pop is just the lube ahead of the buttfucking....


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Pop is just the lube ahead of the buttfucking....


And the rest of Station Road is smothered in the stuff too. Brixton's going to be fucking dull in a few years' time.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 19, 2016)

I quite like being fucked in the butt.....when I choose to be....


----------



## pesh (Sep 19, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Pop is just the lube ahead of the buttfucking....


you have to pay for lube, Pop is basically spit.


----------



## sealion (Sep 19, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I quite like being fucked in the butt.....when I choose to be....


Lambeth are good at shafting people maybe give them a call.(when you choose)


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 19, 2016)

Sea Lion said:


> Lambeth are good at shafting people maybe give them a call.(when you choose)



Not sure they are equipped with the care and attention required to get the sufficient amount of pleasure from the experience.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> I blame editor too



That's because you're a moronic bandwagon-jumper.


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2016)

Flufftastic, extra-lite PR piece here. Peckham, you have been warned.



> However, it’s not just about the food – this project exists to support the local community as well as feed it, and all traders must be prepared to give something back to Brixton and its surrounding areas. Pop also offers discounted rates to social enterprises and local start-ups needing to get their businesses off the ground, and houses events spaces, a farm (for plants, not animals) and the relatively new Pop Fields, where you can pitch-up on the Astroturf and watch big sports games and films on a big screen.





> Melanie Brown from the New Zealand Cellar wine shop and bar agrees that Pop’s a great scheme to be part of: ‘It’s created a new enticing environment for locals, which has contributed to the positive growth happening in Brixton, and it’s also allowed many local businesses to flourish and created a network of like-minded individuals to collaborate and support each other.’



WILL PECKHAM LEVELS MATCH POP BRIXTON’S SUCCESS?


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2016)

Sooooooooooooo wacky! Totes quirkballs. It's like being at school again!



> Sketchbooks Are Dead is a creative experience connecting people through sketchbooks, sketching, food, drink and putting all those elements into a beautifully curated space for people to explore. The event is almost like life drawing but better. Each individual will sit across someone and get the opportunity to draw and build a conversation with each other for a limited amount of time. Once the time is up you move on to start a new conversation and drawing. At the end of the night you will leave with a sketchbook full of interesting drawings of yourself and all the people you meet will leave with a drawing created by you in their book.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 21, 2016)

'positive growth' is an interesting term.

'Each individual will *shit* across someone and get the opportunity to draw and build a conversation with each other for a limited amount of time'

Sounds delightful.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 23, 2016)

Pop Brixton funding company boss quits - Brixton Blog


----------



## editor (Sep 26, 2016)

Great news burger fans! The other Side are bringing their "dirty done proper fried chicken" to Pop Brixton from Saturday 24th September.



> HONEY SMOKED BUTTER: three words you'll be dreaming 'n' drooling over after visiting fried chicken kings, Other Side. Launching out of their converted British ambulance, Matt and Tommy are no novices when it comes to serving up their delicious buttermilk fried chicken.
> 
> _"What Other Side have really nailed is the juiciness of the chicken without the usual greasiness"_ - Enough About Me
> Earning their street-food stripes trading at Kerb, Brixton Beach Boulevard and Broadgate Market to name a few, it was about time these Brixton locals bought their fried chicken revolution to South London.


----------



## editor (Sep 26, 2016)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Pop Brixton funding company boss quits - Brixton Blog


It's been a tough life for James. 


> James Scott, 24, the chief operating officer of The Collective, the development company that raised £1.5 million to help build Pop Brixton, has resigned “to go travelling”, according to the Property Week website.
> 
> As well as funding part of Pop Brixton, The Collective runs a 550-bedroom “co-living space” in Old Oak in West London and is working on a 30-storey tower in Stratford, East London.
> 
> It also has projects in Acton, Camden, Hyde Park, King’s Cross and Notting Hill offering “quality, modern and serviced apartments, studios and rooms for young professionals in some of London’s most iconic locations”.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

So I heard that a local band wanted to put on a show at Pop on a Saturday night. They were quoted £270 for a sound engineer, £50 PA hire with - bizarrely - more for each mic, plus other assorted costs. Yep. That sounds like a community minded venue. Not a rip off at all.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 4, 2016)

editor said:


> So I heard that a local band wanted to put on a show at Pop on a Saturday night. They were quoted £270 for a sound engineer, £50 PA hire with - bizarrely - more for each mic, plus other assorted costs. Yep. That sounds like a community minded venue. Not a rip off at all.


Thats a piss take. And really galling when you consider how many decent live venues in and around Brixton have closed or stopped doing music.


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

Lucy Fur said:


> Thats a piss take. And really galling when you consider how many decent live venues in and around Brixton have closed or stopped doing music.


Like the Canterbury upon which that pointless Pop Fields sports pub sits.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 4, 2016)

I see that Beautiful Christian Books has now taken the unit formerly known as Carl Turner's Pop Brixton Town Centre Regeneration Management Office in Station Road.

So where has the CTPBTCRMO moved to then?


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I see that Beautiful Christian Books has now taken the unit formerly known as Carl Turner's Pop Brixton Town Centre Regeneration Management Office in Station Road.
> 
> So where has the CTPBTCRMO moved to then?


Off to fuck up Peckham, I imagine.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 4, 2016)

editor said:


> Off to fuck up Peckham, I imagine.


I think Beautiful Christian Books might comment:

1 Corithians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (KJV)


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2016)

CH1 said:


> I think Beautiful Christian Books might comment:
> 
> 1 Corithians 13:13
> And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (KJV)


I'm sure The Collective are overflowing with charitable thoughts and deeds.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Oct 5, 2016)

editor said:


> I'm sure The Collective are overflowing with charitable thoughts and deeds.


"their cuntishness runneth over" Ev 1 Ch23


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 7, 2016)

pop is pushing the boundaries of taste with this Halloween themed event focussing on dead artistes





> Scare yourself silly at our Halloween soiree as we go transform ourselves into a star-studded cemetery. We're giving your favourite dead musicians another 15 minutes of fame by bringing them back to life for one special evening.
> 
> With a guest list featuring none other than Club 27 members Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse and Jimmy Hendrix, expect Michael Jackson head to head behind the decks with Prince for the Power Hour (with special guest Whitney!) with shout outs to Tu-Pac, Aliyah, Biggy and friends for The Dance Floor Resurrection Session!
> 
> All set against our Smash Hits Video Vault backdrop, come dressed as and play tribute to your favourite late celebrity as we get silly this Halloween


----------



## editor (Oct 7, 2016)

cuppa tee said:


> pop is pushing the boundaries of taste with this Halloween themed event focussing on dead artistes
> 
> View attachment 93600


Lots of tragically young deaths to celebrate. Such fun!


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## cuppa tee (Oct 7, 2016)

editor said:


> Lots of tragically young deaths to celebrate. Such fun!


i suppose some bright spark thought this sub rag week bollocks was edgy and original and I am all in favour of a bit of iconoclasm but this wacky concept is about as bleak as it gets....


----------



## Maharani (Oct 17, 2016)

Sorry if this is a repeat but thought I'd post it to stir things up a bit! Not that I _need _to do that!



ETA: she uses the 'v' word...


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2016)

They've changed their website and the introduction is now full-on business blurb. They're still pedalling their dubious "local" line, mind.



> Pop Brixton is a temporary project that has turned disused land into a creative space for local, independent businesses. Come and discover South London’s most exciting start-ups working in food, retail, design and social enterprise.


----------



## Angellic (Oct 17, 2016)

From Jay Rayner in the Observer yesterday.

■ *Pop Brixton* is an increasingly familiar style of retail and eating park formed out of shipping containers, with added values around community engagement 
and training. The food offering is varied and generally reliable. Highlights include Koi Ramen, Baba G’s Bhangra Burger, Zoe’s Ghana Kitchen and Maria Sabina’s tacos. There’s communal seating and a pleasingly steamy vibe (_popbrixton.org_).


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2016)

Angellic said:


> From Jay Rayner in the Observer yesterday.
> 
> ■ *Pop Brixton* is an increasingly familiar style of retail and eating park formed out of shipping containers, with added values around community engagement
> and training. The food offering is varied and generally reliable. Highlights include Koi Ramen, Baba G’s Bhangra Burger, Zoe’s Ghana Kitchen and Maria Sabina’s tacos. There’s communal seating and a pleasingly steamy vibe (_popbrixton.org_).


All seems a far cry from the winning bid's aim of "bringing together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing" with a "self-sufficient community, organised and run by designers, builders and gardeners and managed through the local residents and small businesses."


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 17, 2016)

Angellic said:


> From Jay Rayner in the Observer yesterday.
> 
> ■ *Pop Brixton* is an increasingly familiar style of retail and eating park formed out of shipping containers, with added values around community engagement
> and training. The food offering is varied and generally reliable. Highlights include Koi Ramen, Baba G’s Bhangra Burger, Zoe’s Ghana Kitchen and Maria Sabina’s tacos. There’s communal seating and a pleasingly steamy vibe (_popbrixton.org_).


I can vouch for the grub at Baba G's and Zoe's.


----------



## SpamMisery (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeah Baba G's is lovely


----------



## Rushy (Oct 18, 2016)

I like the sound of this "steamy vibe". I wonder what night he visited .


----------



## Winot (Oct 18, 2016)

Rushy said:


> I like the sound of this "steamy vibe".



You must pop round for a cup of tea at some point.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 26, 2016)

New 'box city' made from shipping containers planned for Cardiff Bay
Slightly different


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2016)

Oh and it's not just special occasions where you can spend, spend, spend at Pop - why every Thursday you can shell out a hefty £42.40 for a supper club. Another real benchmark for community affordability there. I'm sure they'll be queuing up from the estates!


----------



## Reiabuzz (Oct 26, 2016)

Are they required to publish an annual report?


----------



## CH1 (Oct 27, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Are they required to publish an annual report?


BTW what is Pop Farm - it is related to Pop Brixton in that James Leay is a "person of significant control" for both.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Oct 27, 2016)

Those really are 'abbreviated'!

I'm not an accountant. How much did this guy make then?


----------



## CH1 (Oct 27, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Those really are 'abbreviated'!
> 
> I'm not an accountant. How much did this guy make then?


I'm not an accountant either - though I have done book-keeping for years.
It seems from those account that for the period 18th November 2014 to 31st January 2016 there was a declared deficit (loss) of £266,709.00

You might think it odd that the accounts are for a period of 14 months approximately - and of course being a "start-up" there is no comparative period.

Additionally, being abbreviated accounts, there is no indication of staff salaries or wages or indeed any indication of magnitude of income and expenditure.

I'm very old school in these things. I find it bizarre and reprehensible that companies with assets running into millions of pounds can file abbreviated accounts. This has been going on since the days of Gordon Brown's deregulation of companies - and in my view is taking the piss.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Oct 27, 2016)

So the bottom line, even if you were to see the non abbreviated accounts, is that the business lost a quarter of a million? That doesn't really make sense. Is he required to publish the full accounts?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 27, 2016)

I think the striking thing about what you can see in the accounts there isn't so much the loss (which AFAIK isn't unusual for a new company), it's that it looks to all be set up on a long term basis. They've got a lot of fixed assets which they're depreciating over 4 years, and a huge amount of long term debt. 

Now how long is it before they're supposedly taking this place down?


----------



## CH1 (Oct 27, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> So the bottom line, even if you were to see the non abbreviated accounts, is that the business lost a quarter of a million? That doesn't really make sense. Is he required to publish the full accounts?


No he isn't required to publish full accounts, though under EU regulations he might be required to provide slightly ore information next time.

The quickest way to find out would (theoretically) be to ask the shareholders:


----------



## Reiabuzz (Oct 27, 2016)

Excuse my ignorance, but what's he getting out of it if he's lost £266,000 - is he anticipating a massive increase in profits this year - I thought this thing was temporary?

He's the majority shareholder right?


----------



## CH1 (Oct 27, 2016)

Reiabuzz said:


> Excuse my ignorance, but what's he getting out of it if he's lost £266,000 - is he anticipating a massive increase in profits this year - I thought this thing was temporary?
> 
> He's the majority shareholder right?


I can't speak to the accounts - except that Monkeygrinder's Organ gives a plausible explanation for the capital situation.

I did however chance upon a second company, MAKE SHIFT COMMUNITY LTD, which has changed its name four times, having formerly been:
POP COMMUNITY LIMITED 13 Jan 2016 - 11 May 2016
PECKHAM LEVELS LIMITED 15 Dec 2015 - 13 Jan 2016
POP COMMUNITY LIMITED 29 Jul 2015 - 15 Dec 2015

This looks like it is the vehicle into which the rents are paid - but has of course not published any accounts at all.

Lambeth Council and Pop Brixton look like a lesser spotted ENRON, if anyone remembers them.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 6, 2016)

I'm sure folks will be glad to know that Carl Turner architects have moved onto higher things, namely demolishing the Peckham Arch, and replacing it with two "mixed use" buildings on a co-op design principle.

Fans will be delighted to know that there is a photo of Pop Brixton on page 7 of the design and access statement - presumably by way of a testimony to the excellence of the architect's work.

Shame that a 1990s space age plaza in Peckham is to be despoiled by one of Lambeth Council's favourite architects. But not surprising.
What was that about the privatisation of public space?

Anybody wanting to protest might consider a trip to the Southwark Town Hall 160 Tooley Street on 8th November (meeting starts 5.30 pm)

I'm fascinated by how Mr Turner seems to be the go-to architect when councils want to get rid of public space and replace it with business units of a non-democratically accountable nature. But not nature as in eco-friendly.


----------



## editor (Nov 6, 2016)

Mr Karl Turner hasn't really got the best of reputations amongst some people I've been talking to recently. Still, he did very nicely indeed out of Pop.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 7, 2016)

As I understand it, Carl Turner architects drew up two proposals, one retaining the arch and one removing it. It was Southwark who decided to go with the removal option. Sometimes it seems that people don't realise architects work to a brief - it's those who are paying them who have the final say on these kinds of decisions. Pop Brixton is a special case where the architects also have a business interest in the operation of the site. The same doesn't apply to the Peckham proposals.

If a council decides to go ahead with something, whether or not I agree with their decision I'd rather it was executed by good designers. Carl Turner seem to do good stuff, architecturally. The alternative is to go with some architects willing to do cheap & cheerful driven entirely by cost efficiency and then you end up with something like the Premier Inn extension in Brixton.

It's hardly surprising that in the section of the Design & Access statement where the architects give examples of previous work, they show an example of previous work. I think box parks are kind of cliched and stupid, but the boxpark they've done at Pop Brixton is better than average, in my opinion.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 16, 2016)

Pop wins the Time Our London Award for Brixton again this year:
Time Out Love London Awards


----------



## editor (Nov 16, 2016)

The Time Out awards are fantastically pointless. Get a few mates to bother voting and your business will win it too because hardly anyone else ever bothers (some areas/categories receive so little interest that they fail to generate any nominations). It's just marketing for Time Out.

Clangers galore in the Brixton listings for Time Out’s Love London Awards 2016


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 19, 2016)

editor said:


> Mr Karl Turner hasn't really got the best of reputations amongst some people I've been talking to recently. Still, he did very nicely indeed out of Pop.



Including people in the architectural profession I have talked to.

Turner is architect as petit bourgeois businessman.  Not what architects I have talked to are impressed by.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 19, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think the striking thing about what you can see in the accounts there isn't so much the loss (which AFAIK isn't unusual for a new company), it's that it looks to all be set up on a long term basis. They've got a lot of fixed assets which they're depreciating over 4 years, and a huge amount of long term debt.
> 
> Now how long is it before they're supposedly taking this place down?



One of the things that supporters of Pop have said is that there will be a profit share between Council and Turner. Cllr Jacko has said profit share will go to other good works in the area.It was the justification for the rent free land. 

I was always circumspect that this would happen in practise.


----------



## Rushy (Nov 19, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> Including people in the architectural profession I have talked to.
> 
> Turner is architect as petit bourgeois businessman.  Not what architects I have talked to are impressed by.


Architecture as a profession is busily having to reinvent itself at the moment. It was rapidly taking a back seat to engineering and becoming just one element offered by multi disciplinary design companies. Architects are no more able to eschew the idea of being client focused businesses offering a broader range of services than any other profession.

Whilst there is room for high art and tiny niche specialties in architecture,  only a small minority will ever earn from it. I don't imagine that many working architects would publicly describe CTA a petite bourgeois businessman as they'd be perfectly aware that they would be widely seen as pretentious, elitist and, ultimately, a bit chippy.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 19, 2016)

Rushy said:


> Whilst there is room for high art and tiny niche specialties in architecture,  only a small minority will ever earn from it. I don't imagine that many working architects would publicly describe CTA a petite bourgeois businessman as they'd be perfectly aware that they would be widely seen as pretentious, elitist and, ultimately, a bit chippy.



High art? Was I going on about high art?

A bit "chippy"?

Please. I get around a bit and talk to a wide range of people. I also talk to "working" architects.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 19, 2016)

No point talking to architects who don't work


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2016)

SpamMisery said:


> No point talking to architects who don't work


Why's that, then? They'll know a thousand times more about the profession than someone like you, yet here you are, piping up with a particularly stupid opinion.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 20, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> High art? Was I going on about high art?
> 
> A bit "chippy"?
> 
> Please. I get around a bit and talk to a wide range of people. I also talk to "working" architects.


What exactly do you mean by "petit bourgeois businessman" though? It does sound a bit snooty to me.


----------



## SpamMisery (Nov 20, 2016)

Lets have less of the personal attacks


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## Rushy (Nov 20, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> A bit "chippy"?



Fair enough. A bit chippy.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 20, 2016)

teuchter said:


> What exactly do you mean by "petit bourgeois businessman" though? It does sound a bit snooty to me.



I was trying to be not to abusive. What I have heard said is he is an "arse" Is that less "snooty" for you?


----------



## cuppa tee (Feb 10, 2017)

so......Pop is going to be the location of a " community fridge"

Community Fridge Launches In Brixton, Where Local Businesses Can Donate Spare Food To Those In Need | The Huffington Post

strange juxtaposition putting it in a "foodie hotspot"


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## Nanker Phelge (Feb 18, 2017)

3 months since anyone slagged pop off. I reckon that makes it proper Brixton now.

On the approved list


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## Ms T (Feb 18, 2017)

Its being slagged off in the Feb Brixton thread instead.


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## Nanker Phelge (Feb 18, 2017)

Ms T said:


> Its being slagged off in the Feb Brixton thread instead.



...BUT NOT HERE....where it counts for big ol' beef bucks among the beef brigade


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## T & P (Feb 18, 2017)

Nanker Phelge said:


> ...BUT NOT HERE....where it counts for big ol' beef bucks among the beef brigade


I dunno... Fridgegate has been fairly intense at times, and all over the biggest non-issue ever.


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## pesh (Feb 18, 2017)

It's still a shithole.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 18, 2017)

T & P said:


> I dunno... Fridgegate has been fairly intense at times, and all over the biggest non-issue ever.



talk of the beef brigade and they shall appear


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2017)

T & P said:


> I dunno... Fridgegate has been fairly intense at times, and all over the biggest non-issue ever.


Even the people who installed it think its current location is an issue, but there you go.

I haven't seen much slagging off of Pop anywhere recently: the entirely reasonable issue of the the location of the fridge was brought up and then the usual beef-laden types weighed in. Yawn.


----------



## Rushy (Feb 18, 2017)

I'll just drop this here:
https://www.urban75.l/negative-post...s-aggression-bullying-tediousness-etc.350562/
and ask the question, which posters are really trying to close down debate by stirring up personal shit on the Brixton Forum?

A perfectly relevant bump by Cuppa immediately hijacked by the usual baiters. It's no wonder this forum is so devoid of contributors.


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## T & P (Feb 18, 2017)

editor said:


> Even the people who installed it think its current location is an issue, but there you go.
> 
> I haven't seen much slagging off of Pop anywhere recently: the entirely reasonable issue of the the location of the fridge was brought up and then the usual beef-laden types weighed in. Yawn.



I was under the impression they only thought it might be an issue after they received feedback from individuals not involved with the project or indeed likely to be using the service who simply thought it was a bad idea to have it at Pop. And then perhaps they were just being polite.


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## Rushy (Feb 18, 2017)

T & P said:


> I was under the impression they only thought it might be an issue after they received feedback from individuals not involved with the project or indeed likely to be using the service who simply thought it was a bad idea to have it at Pop. And then perhaps they were just being polite.


It's clearly not their number one choice as their withdrawn application to locate it on the outer perimeter of Pop suggests. But its current location overcomes the immediate obstacles and allows them to get on with it without delay. It's just a fridge. They can unplug it and move it when they need/want to.

As for whether having it in the middle of a restaurant area is a strange juxtaposition - no I don't think so at all. They are quite clear that the target contributors are small food businesses which are not already involved in larger more formal redistribution schemes. They want to make it as easy as they can for them to contribute small amounts regularly. Being close and convenient is considered key to participation.

To be honest, if it works, I'd have thought Brixton could accommodate two or three of these.


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## Gramsci (Feb 19, 2017)

If this project demonstrates something it's that this is a shit society. In the midst of plenty some people don't have enough money to eat properly.


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## soupdragon (Feb 21, 2017)

Good architecture is definitely haute bourgeois.


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## blameless77 (Feb 22, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> If this project demonstrates something it's that this is a shit society. In the midst of plenty some people don't have enough money to eat properly.



Except that it's about reducing food waste, not feeding hungry people.


----------



## blameless77 (Feb 22, 2017)

blameless77 said:


> Except that it's about reducing food waste, not feeding hungry people.



(and yes, it is in the wrong place)


----------



## editor (Mar 17, 2017)

So Pop Fields wants to stay around till Feb 2018. 16/07015/VOC     |              Variation of condition 1 (Expiry Date) of planning application 16/02260/FUL (Temporary use of site (up to 1st February 2017) for the provision of an outdoor sports and event space with new access points from adjacent Pop Brixton site and Popes Road. Installation of temporary structures including perimeter hoarding with graphics and signage, tiered seating, shipping containers, turf playing field, and event television screen) granted on 27/05/2016  Variation sought: to extend the permission until 1st February 2018                  |                                                                      Land Formerly 8 Canterbury Crescent London SW9 7QD


----------



## editor (Apr 8, 2017)

An update, if anyone is interested: 



> Make Do And Mend opens new Pop Brixton store with 20% discount weekend
> 
> Vintage fashion boutique Make Do And Mend is opening a brand new store at Pop Brixton, moving into larger premises to accommodate even more unique, handpicked vintage for men and women. The new store opens on Friday April 14, with a special launch discount available throughout the Easter weekend.
> 
> ...


----------



## phillm (Apr 9, 2017)

ddraig said:


> New 'box city' made from shipping containers planned for Cardiff Bay
> Slightly different



Like some unstoppable dystopian zombie virus - the box plague has infected hosts worldwide...

Artbox Thailand – Bangkok’s Hipster Container Market Goes To Chatuchak, Till April 2017


----------



## editor (May 22, 2017)

Coming to Pop Brixton, the globe trotting Smoke And Salt restaurant. 

"MODERN DINING | ANCIENT TECHNIQUES" ....and fucking ridiculously small portion sizes







Smoke & Salt


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## Nanker Phelge (May 22, 2017)

I've done a couple of 5/6 course taster menus in the past.....and they do fill you up.

I started the evening thinking 'I'm going home hungry tonight' but by the time dessert comes along I'm like 'enough now'


----------



## snowy_again (May 22, 2017)

bigger portions appear to be available.


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2017)

Well, I'm sold. Thanks for bringing this up


----------



## editor (May 22, 2017)

snowy_again said:


> bigger portions appear to be available.


That's a relief.  That swishy plate would barely feed a sparrow.

As seems to be the norm for many Pop Brixton ventures, they appear to have little, if any, connection with Brixton.


> After a series of successful popups throughout the capital in the past year, *Smoke & Salt* have now taken up a year-long residency at the *Chapel Bar* in Islington. The duo behind the venture, chefs Aaron Webster and Remi Williams, have a combined decade’s worth of restaurant experience to open *Smoke & Salt* – and prior to meeting at The Shed in Notting Hill, both had worked at rather big name restaurants. Webster, at Michelin-starred The Latymer in Surrey and Heston Blumenthal’s Dinner in Knightsbridge; and Williams, at Craigie on Main and Deuxave, two of Boston’s biggest names.
> Smoke & Salt, Seasonal British Pop-Up Restaurant, Islington



£38 per head (excluding drinks and service). Ouch.


> Still, if you’ve got deep pockets and are after a warm welcome, this might just fit the (large) bill.


Smoke & Salt


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## T & P (May 22, 2017)

If that is for a tasting menu, £38 per head is not unreasonable at all.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2017)

T & P said:


> If that is for a tasting menu, £38 per head is not unreasonable at all.


For you I'm sure it's very affordable, but it won't be for an awful lot of people who live nearby. How do you think such an upmarket - and by definition, elitist - restaurant fits in with the original stated aims of Pop Brixton as some sort of community venture?


----------



## Gramsci (May 22, 2017)

editor said:


> That's a relief.  That swishy plate would barely feed a sparrow.
> 
> As seems to be the norm for many Pop Brixton ventures, they appear to have little, if any, connection with Brixton.
> 
> ...



I don't quite understand this. Checked on Google.

smoke & salt to open in pop brixton - London On The Inside

I thought Pop prides itself on start up space for local entrepreneurs? 

Can't see how this fits in with that model.


----------



## Gramsci (May 22, 2017)

Another thing that puts me of Pop is seeing the poor sods  from Deliveroo and Uber Eats outside Pop.


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2017)

editor said:


> For you I'm sure it's very affordable, but it won't be for an awful lot of people who live nearby. How do you think such an upmarket - and by definition, elitist - restaurant fits in with the original stated aims of Pop Brixton as some sort of community venture?


 This is a temporary gig meant to offer an occasional treat for people who are into that kind of thing. Nobody is suggesting it should be viewed or used as a regular eat-out option, and more importantly there are plenty of other venues at Pop offering far cheaper options.

This is not a permanent restaurant and is not replacing a cheaper eatery, so it does not amount to a loss to the local community. It will be a short lived gig amongst a sea of other venues offering cheaper alternatives. That is all.

If your angle however is that _anything_ that is out of reach of the poorest members of the local community is an affront to them and should be opposed, then I'm afraid we're going to have to get rid of pretty much every restaurant in the area- and pub and club venue while we're at it- because to the poorest members of the local community they will sadly be as hopelessly out of reach.


----------



## Gramsci (May 22, 2017)

T & P said:


> This is a temporary gig meant to offer an occasional treat for people who are into that kind of thing. Nobody is suggesting it should be viewed or used as a regular eat-out option, and more importantly there are plenty of other venues at Pop offering far cheaper options.
> 
> This is not a permanent restaurant and is not replacing a cheaper eatery, so it does not amount to a loss to the local community. It will be a short lived gig amongst a sea of other venues offering cheaper alternatives. That is all.
> 
> If your angle however is that _anything_ that is out of reach of the poorest members of the local community is an affront to them and should be opposed, then I'm afraid we're going to have to get rid of pretty much every restaurant in the area- and pub and club venue while we're at it- because to the poorest members of the local community they will sadly be as hopelessly out of reach.



If you are referring to smoke and salt it's not temporary.


----------



## SpamMisery (May 22, 2017)

I went into Pop very early on Saturday morning to pass the time whilst waiting for someone. I took a coffee in with me that I'd purchased outside and used their loo. Turns out it really is just like a public space with the added benefit of free public loos. Also, no bouncers.


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> If you are referring to smoke and salt it's not temporary.


Fair enough, didn't realise that. But unless I misunderstood the rest of it, it is an addition to the local offerings, as opposed to displacing a cheap restaurant. It causes no loss to the local community, and it is no more offensive than countless other businesses both inside and outside Pop that are just as out of each to the poorest people in the area. Its singling out as an objectionable business does not stand up to any scrutiny IMO.


----------



## Gramsci (May 22, 2017)

T & P said:


> Fair enough, didn't realise that. But unless I misunderstood the rest of it, it is an addition to the local offerings, as opposed to displacing a cheap restaurant. It causes no loss to the local community, and it is no more offensive than countless other businesses both inside and outside Pop that are just as out of each to the poorest people in the area. Its singling out as an objectionable business does not stand up to any scrutiny IMO.



Pop isn't the same as purely commercial enterprises such as Brixton Village. I don't understand why smoke and salt was given a unit when Pop was I thought for start ups.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

T & P said:


> This is a temporary gig meant to offer an occasional treat for people who are into that kind of thing.


This "occasional treat" line is getting really fucking tired.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

T & P said:


> Fair enough, didn't realise that. But unless I misunderstood the rest of it, it is an addition to the local offerings, as opposed to displacing a cheap restaurant. It causes no loss to the local community, and it is no more offensive than countless other businesses both inside and outside Pop that are just as out of each to the poorest people in the area. Its singling out as an objectionable business does not stand up to any scrutiny IMO.


So you think that an influx of expensive restaurants and bars causes no loss to the local community? Really? You think it's that simple?


----------



## alex_ (May 23, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> If you are referring to smoke and salt it's not temporary.



Surely it'll can't last longer than pop ?

Which iirc has 2 years left ?

Alex


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> This "occasional treat" line is getting really fucking tired.


As does the 'poorest members of the local community can't afford that and therefore it's bad' argument, seeing as that sentiment is applied very selectively indeed.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 23, 2017)

alex_ said:


> Surely it'll can't last longer than pop ?
> 
> Which iirc has 2 years left ?
> 
> Alex



I seriously doubt they'll be taking it down on time.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

T & P said:


> As does the 'poorest members of the local community can't afford that and therefore it's bad' argument, seeing as that sentiment is applied very selectively indeed.


I'll ask again: do you really think that an influx of expensive restaurants and bars causes no loss to the local community, as you claimed? Brixton is now awash with these expensive bars and restaurants. They contribute to an increase in rents and push out locals, and when they're opening up in what was supposed to be a community based venture this "occasional treat" excuse starts to look desperately weak.


----------



## CH1 (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> I'll ask again: do you really think that an influx of expensive restaurants and bars causes no loss to the local community, as you claimed? Brixton is now awash with these expensive bars and restaurants. They contribute to an increase in rents and push out locals, and when they're opening up in what was supposed to be a community based venture this "occasional treat" excuse starts to look desperately weak.


The only useful use of a Boxpark type situation I've encountered recently is the Temporary Newington Library at Elephant Park. In a second floor container (but equipped with a lift). This of course is a meanwhile use pending the refurbishment of the fire damaged library on Walworth Road.

I drew 2 lessons from this

1. although Southwark Council are are evil and vile as Lambeth - and more - when it comes to housing and regeneration, they do at least maintain their libraries, and provide temporary facilities when the main ones are being renovated

2. the temporary Newington Library has very nice staff - but don't even stock electoral registers in the middle of a general election. They sent me to the John Harvard library for that - who duly obliged.


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> I'll ask again: do you really think that an influx of expensive restaurants and bars causes no loss to the local community, as you claimed? Brixton is now awash with these expensive bars and restaurants. They contribute to an increase in rents and push out locals, and when they're opening up in what was supposed to be a community based venture this "occasional treat" excuse starts to look desperately weak.


The arrival of this particular venture will cause no loss to the local community, however you want to spin it. It has displaced or replaced no other business, and it has a limited lifespan of no more than 3 years, or whenever Pop is due to close. So no, no negative effect whichever way you want to look at it.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

T & P said:


> The arrival of this particular venture will cause no loss to the local community, however you want to spin it. It has displaced or replaced no other business, and it has a limited lifespan of no more than 3 years, or whenever Pop is due to close. So no, no negative effect whichever way you want to look at it.


You seem to think all this is happening in some sort of bubble. It's not.

It's yet another gentrifying elitist newcomer - with no connection to the area - taking over what should be a community resource. Of course it has an effect. A local start up could have used the space they're occupying for their expensive £38 meals for tourists  (and that doesn't include service charge or drinks).


----------



## Lizzy Mac (May 23, 2017)

T & P said:


> As does the 'poorest members of the local community can't afford that and therefore it's bad' argument, seeing as that sentiment is applied very selectively indeed.


This doesn't just effect the poorest members of the community.  I don't count myself as poor, I've got a job, a mortgage etc etc but I can't afford to eat in many of these new places and I too am bored too by the occasional treat line.  I rarely come on here and moan about it but it would be nice if a few of the new places were more budget friendly.  Pizza is covered and a burger is a last resort for me.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

Lizzy Mac said:


> This doesn't just effect the poorest members of the community.  I don't count myself as poor, I've got a job, a mortgage etc etc but I can't afford to eat in many of these new places and I too am bored too by the occasional treat line.  I rarely come on here and moan about it but it would be nice if a few of the new places were more budget friendly.


Exactly. And when these unaffordable upmarket restaurants with no connection to the area are opening up in what is supposed to be a "community project for local independent businesses," it's a real slap in the face.


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2017)

Lizzy Mac said:


> This doesn't just effect the poorest members of the community.  I don't count myself as poor, I've got a job, a mortgage etc etc but I can't afford to eat in many of these new places and I too am bored too by the occasional treat line.  I rarely come on here and moan about it but it would be nice if a few of the new places were more budget friendly.  Pizza is covered and a burger is a last resort for me.


I'm on the same boat as you, and visiting such a place would be a once-a-year treat for me at best. But not being able to afford a certain place doesn't mean I should oppose one opening on a temporary basis, so long as it does not take away any of the existing cheaper places in the area- which this venture absolutely does not. So I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

T & P said:


> I'm on the same boat as you, and visiting such a place would be a once-a-year treat for me at best. But not being able to afford a certain place doesn't mean I should oppose one opening on a temporary basis, so long as it does not take away any of the existing cheaper places in the area- which this venture absolutely does not. So I don't have a problem with it.


So you don't think the space they're occupying in this "community project for local independent businesses" should have, perhaps, gone to an actual local business that catered to the needs of the community?


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> So you don't think the space they're occupying in this "community project for local independent businesses" should have, perhaps, gone to an actual local business that catered to the needs of the community?


 There have been plenty of local businesses doing just that in Pop from its conception. If Pop has extra space and have now decided to utilise it, it is not a bad thing. If the issue bothers you that much perhaps you can write to them and ask if they have ensured they could not possibly rent it to a local business before letting it to an evil outsider.


----------



## alex_ (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> So you don't think the space they're occupying in this "community project for local independent businesses" should have, perhaps, gone to an actual local business that catered to the needs of the community?



Have we actually clarified they aren't a local business ?


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

alex_ said:


> Have we actually clarified they aren't a local business ?


Feel free to try and establish a connection with Brixton. If they have a connection, they're keeping it very quiet.

All I could find was their achievements with big name restaurants including the Michelin-starred The Latymer in Surrey and Heston Blumenthal’s Dinner in Knightsbridge and at "two of Boston’s biggest names." They met working in Notting Hill and they certainly are very well connected with good PR. They've attracted a phenomenal amount of press.

Here's another review complaining about their 'shocking' high prices.

Fay Maschler reviews Smoke & Salt: Sweet service but shocking bill

#occasionaltreat


----------



## Gramsci (May 23, 2017)

T & P said:


> There have been plenty of local businesses doing just that in Pop from its conception. If Pop has extra space and have now decided to utilise it, it is not a bad thing. If the issue bothers you that much perhaps you can write to them and ask if they have ensured they could not possibly rent it to a local business before letting it to an evil outsider.



It's not just a few posters here who don't like Pop. In Loughborough Junction the LJ Works project on the LJ Farm site has parralels with Pop. At early consultation on this project (Next to the Loughborough Estate) residents of the estate said they didn't want anything like Pop next to there estate. Since then officers have been careful to say they will learn from what happened with the Pop site. The residents saw what happened with the Pop project and don't like it. The "poor" when given an opportunity to express there opinion have made it clear to the Council what they think.

The Council are fully aware that Pop has divided opinion. Though that doesn't make it into any of there documents. I hear it because of the circles I mix in and from attending the occasional consultation meeting.

The Council see Pop as a success. It's very New Labour. In there view it's a successful experiment in putting together entrepreneural business with social value. They think it's a model they can role out on the rest of Brixton. I did point it this didn't work out with Network Rail. They believe they can sign up landowners/ big business to this.

It's naive of Council to think they can do this. This is not how Capitalism works. It's about making money not producing social good.

At consultation meetings residents have brought up concerns of the Pop model. These are ignored from what I've seen. Except in LJ. Which is mainly due to the Loughborough Estate being so big.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> It's not just a few posters here who don't like Pop. In Loughborough Junction the LJ Works project on the LJ Farm site has parralels with Pop. At early consultation on this project (Next to the Loughborough Estate) residents of the estate said they didn't want anything like Pop next to there estate. Since then officers have been careful to say they will learn from what happened with the Pop site. The residents saw what happened with the Pop project and don't like it. The "poor" when given an opportunity to express there opinion have made it clear to the Council what they think.
> 
> The Council are fully aware that Pop has divided opinion. Though that doesn't make it into any of there documents. I hear it because of the circles I mix in and from attending the occasional consultation meeting.
> 
> ...


I really sincerely hope they manage to avoid getting another entrepreneur-stuffed, "occasional treat"-dispensing, East London-developer-partnered, trendy and unaffordable "business park for the 21st century" on their doorsteps.


----------



## Gramsci (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> I really sincerely hope they managed to avoid getting another entrepreneur-stuffed, "occasional treat"-dispensing, East London-developer-partnered, trendy and unaffordable "business park for the 21st century" on their doorsteps.



LJ Works is a bit different has it has GLA funding, 25 year life and is on a site zoned for industry ( so no permanent eateries). But I share concerns with people on the estate. They want something with proper training opportunities with proper qualifications at end . At moment looks like Tree Shepherd running courses for single parents to try out "foodie" ideas and become "entrepreneural". Which at meetings they have been critical. This isn't providing opportunities to progress to secure well paid work. As residents on estate say , not real qualifications. ( It's also imo about the working class learning to provide services for the well off. The new service class.)


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> LJ Works is a bit different has it has GLA funding, 25 year life and is on a site zoned for industry ( so no permanent eateries). But I share concerns with people on the estate. They want something with proper training opportunities with proper qualifications at end . At moment looks like Tree Shepherd running courses for single parents to try out "foodie" ideas and become "entrepreneural". Which at meetings they have been critical. This isn't providing opportunities to progress to secure well paid work. As residents on estate say , not real qualifications. ( It's also imo about the working class learning to provide services for the well off. The new service class.)



I've been criticising Lambeth for years regarding the transitory nature of most of the work and training "opportunities" the provide or sponsor.  Part of their _spiel_ on estate "regeneration" is that jobs opportunities will be provided, but - interestingly, at least to me - they can't show, with regard to any of their current schemes, even Somerleyton, that such opportunities will extend much past the completion of development.  To me too much of it is premised on the developers funding training and providing jobs as a tick on their "corporate social responsibility" boxes, with no real interest beyond that, and the council see this as a good sop to anti-regeneration public sentiment: "Look, we're creating jobs! Don't you want jobs?".


----------



## Gramsci (May 24, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've been criticising Lambeth for years regarding the transitory nature of most of the work and training "opportunities" the provide or sponsor.  Part of their _spiel_ on estate "regeneration" is that jobs opportunities will be provided, but - interestingly, at least to me - they can't show, with regard to any of their current schemes, even Somerleyton, that such opportunities will extend much past the completion of development.  To me too much of it is premised on the developers funding training and providing jobs as a tick on their "corporate social responsibility" boxes, with no real interest beyond that, and the council see this as a good sop to anti-regeneration public sentiment: "Look, we're creating jobs! Don't you want jobs?".




In the LJ Works project the architects were hoping to have a scheme where locals could be involved in learning skills in design and build as part of the project. This was used to sell the project to locals. Now this won't happen as we are know told the funding won't stretch that far. Instead they will be encouraging contractors who will build the project to take on local labour and do training. People's expectations are raised then we are told this is as good as it gets.

This has parralels with the meanwhile use of the Pop site. People expectations are raised when consultation is done. Then it doesn't quite turn out that way.

Yet Council still say it's a success. Rather than looking at it objectively and seeing what bits worked and what didn't.

Listened to a radio programme tonight on business and the state. New Labour accepted the Thatcherite neo liberalism. With the caveat that they should persuade business to be socially responsible. Sadiq Khan was mentioned on the programme as he is taking the same line.

Imo it doesn't work. Whatever the pros and cons of Pop business such as Network Rail don't have to sign up to this model. It's where the New Labour project falls down. Cajoling Capitalism to behave better isn't going to happen.

Pop is stand alone project. It's not going to be a model that can be replicated elsewhere.


----------



## alex_ (May 25, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Instead they will be encouraging contractors who will build the project to take on local labour and do training.



And then on the ground this translates to, "we mentioned it one in a meeting".

Alex


----------



## snowy_again (May 25, 2017)

Just noticed the Bounce Back charity is now also based there: Bounce Back - Training and employment of ex offenders which links into the Clink project. 

Sadly they're associated with the delightful Iqbal Wahhab


----------



## editor (May 25, 2017)

snowy_again said:


> Sadly they're associated with the delightful Iqbal Wahhab


What's the story there?


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2017)

Great to see Pop Brixton sticking to its community-focused brief, and what could be more relevant to the local community than a corporate VR Major League Baseball event, based around Boston taking on L.A.?









> *June, London*:  Ahead of its huge July 4th party in Hyde Park, Major League Baseball is partnering with POP Brixton to showcase the best of Boston and Los Angeles through food, drink, music and tech from the 30th June – 1st July.
> 
> For one weekend only, open 12pm – 11pm, visitors to MLB’s POP Brixton ‘culture clash’ can take part in a *world-exclusive VR baseball experience*, where they will pick a side – Boston or L.A. – and play to win. Prizes will be on offer to the players who hit the most home runs.
> 
> ...


----------



## twistedAM (Jun 29, 2017)

Let them eat lobster.


----------



## djdando (Jun 30, 2017)

editor said:


> Great to see Pop Brixton sticking to its community-focused brief, and what could be more relevant to the local community than a corporate VR Major League Baseball event, based around Boston taking on L.A.?



I was in there grabbing lunch this afternoon and, to my surprise, saw shed loads of Evelyn Grace Academy kids in there using it. So actually I would say it was engaging perfectly!


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2017)

djdando said:


> I was in there grabbing lunch this afternoon and, to my surprise, saw shed loads of Evelyn Grace Academy kids in there using it. So actually I would say it was engaging perfectly!


I didn't say there was _no_ engagement but it's a far cry from the community based offering we were promised. How the fuck Shoreditch mega-capitalist property developers The Collective came to grab a large chunk of the project site is anyone's guess. Here's what they're up to elsewhere:






Second luxury commune gets the green light in Stratford

Listen to this babble: 


> Reza Merchant, chief executive of  The Collective, said: “London is at the forefront of the global co-living revolution, with significant demand for this new way of living. Co-living offers community-centric experiences and access to an enviable range of spaces and curated events.



On a related note, I'm hearing a lot about local residents getting REALLY pissed off about the noise from all the club events taking part in the 'green oasis.'


----------



## djdando (Jun 30, 2017)

I am a local resident. They popped something in my letter box giving an emergency number to call if I had concerns about noise. TBH if you live in the centre of Brixton you've got to accept it. Also, by far the loudest noise comes from the blokes blaring reggae from the Function One sound system in their boot on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. If you don't like the noise, move to Orpington.


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2017)

djdando said:


> I am a local resident. They popped something in my letter box giving an emergency number to call if I had concerns about noise. TBH if you live in the centre of Brixton you've got to accept it. Also, by far the loudest noise comes from the blokes blaring reggae from the Function One sound system in their boot on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. If you don't like the noise, move to Orpington.


That's not really how it works though. I've never made a noise complaint in all the time I've been here. If people move into a noisy area then they have no right to complain about the existing noise, IMO.

But if something _new_ starts up and begins to make a fucking racket all night long, then local residents have *every right* to complain. Why should they have to put up with it?

And how dare you dismiss them out of hand and tell them they should push off to Orpington. They were here long before the DJs and hipsters turned up the volume in Pop, so if anyone should do the moving, it should be the people disturbing the existing community and not the families and long term residents living nearby.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2017)

djdando said:


> I am a local resident. They popped something in my letter box giving an emergency number to call if I had concerns about noise. TBH if you live in the centre of Brixton you've got to accept it. Also, by far the loudest noise comes from the blokes blaring reggae from the Function One sound system in their boot on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday night. If you don't like the noise, move to Orpington.



That part of Brixton was not in the centre of what is now the entertainment zone. Before Pop it was a car park. Nearby is the Brixton Rec. The estate by Pop was there years before Pop came on the scene. To say that people shouldn't move to areas where historically there have been bars and clubs for years is one thing this is not the case here.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jun 30, 2017)

All new establishments should be quiet. In fact no music at new establishments. No drinking or talking would be preferable.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2017)

Here's how it looked the last time I passed. 

 

#persil


----------



## blameless77 (Jul 2, 2017)

editor said:


> Here's how it looked the last time I passed.
> 
> View attachment 110582
> 
> #persil


Mmm, some people hanging out! Is that any way offensive? Seriously what is the problem?


----------



## blameless77 (Jul 2, 2017)

editor said:


> Here's how it looked the last time I passed.
> 
> View attachment 110582
> 
> #persil



Oh really- 'persil', just what are you implying?


----------



## editor (Jul 2, 2017)

blameless77 said:


> Oh really- 'persil', just what are you implying?


It was supposed to be a project for all the community and not a very narrow, and very white and reasonably well off demographic of mainly tourists. If you're OK with that, that's fine.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2017)

blameless77 said:


> Oh really- 'persil', just what are you implying?



I don't believe he's implying anything.  It's pretty obvious from the picture that the queue is comprised of white people in a greater proportion than the local demographic.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't the original intention, but it's certainly been the reality of Pop Brixton.  Personally I don't see that as a good thing.  Apart from anything else, it makes locals feel self-conscious about the place.  Such queues signify "this isn't for the likes of you, indigenous Brixtonites".

(awaits the usual suspects and their bleating)


----------



## elmpp (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> Here's how it looked the last time I passed.
> 
> View attachment 110582
> 
> #persil


what a knob


----------



## editor (Jul 4, 2017)

elmpp said:


> what a knob


And off you go for three months. Enjoy your summer.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2017)

After seeing this thread bump we've decided to head to Brixton this evening for a walk around and get dinner at Pop #tourist


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2017)

Mr Retro said:


> After seeing this thread bump we've decided to head to Brixton this evening for a walk around and get dinner at Pop #tourist


It's perfect for you.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2017)

editor said:


> It's perfect for you.


Great! And I thank Urban75's effective though unintentional Web Personalisation Marketing that sends us there this evening


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2017)

Mr Retro said:


> Great! And I thank Urban75's effective though unintentional Web Personalisation Marketing that sends us there this evening


Enjoy your evening amongst your fellow demographic.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2017)

editor said:


> Enjoy your evening amongst your fellow demographic.


Thanks! If I see you lurking around taking photographs I might come and say hi but to be fair I probably won't.


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2017)

Mr Retro said:


> Thanks! If I see you lurking around taking photographs I might come and say hi but to be fair I probably won't.


I've no interest in hanging out in Pop Brixton, thanks. It's for tourists with more cash then sense.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2017)

editor said:


> I've no interest in hanging out in Pop Brixton, thanks. It's for tourists with more cash then sense.


And for those taking furtive photographs


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2017)

Mr Retro said:


> And for those taking furtive photographs


By Christ you're boring. Enjoy your yuppie evening.


----------



## Mr Retro (Jul 5, 2017)

editor said:


> By Christ you're boring. Enjoy your yuppie evening.


If you read up the thread it's you engaged me. If I'm so boring please refrain from doing so again. But thanks for the good wishes nevertheless.


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2017)

Mr Retro said:


> If you read up the thread it's you engaged me. If I'm so boring please refrain from doing so again. But thanks for the good wishes nevertheless.


I'm taking you off the thread now as it's clear you're only here to disrupt the discussion. Bye.


----------



## sparkybird (Jul 5, 2017)

handbags - it's boring.


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2017)

sparkybird said:


> handbags - it's boring.


All over now, thankfully. Does anyone know when Pop Brixton will be packing up its green oasis, by the way? Has their time been extended?

On a related note,  I'm still fucking livid about the Canterbury Arms being demolished for no good reason as part of this general nu-Brixton fuckery.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 5, 2017)

Tried going to Smoke and Salt the other day. Utterly rammed. Anyone know when you're most likely to get a table?


----------



## technical (Jul 6, 2017)

We were nearby on Saturday lunchtime - was almost empty then


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 6, 2017)

I would have thought that was peak time! Weird.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 6, 2017)

Rio Ferdinand Foundation there today launching their youth leaders programme:



http://rioferdinandfoundation.com/#!home


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

snowy_again said:


> Rio Ferdinand Foundation there today launching their youth leaders programme:
> 
> 
> 
> http://rioferdinandfoundation.com/#!home



He's a good bloke, Rio.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 6, 2017)

Lunchtime today

Repeated my experiment of wandering through whilst eating a baguette from Greggs. Third time now I have managed this without being thrown out by security.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

They've banned all dogs from the community green oasis now. There's a big sign on the door.


----------



## phillm (Jul 6, 2017)

SpamMisery said:


> Tried going to Smoke and Salt the other day. Utterly rammed. Anyone know when you're most likely to get a table?



You can book online on their website - or try waiting - totally worth the wait if you love amazing food. Though their 'small plates' are more about great flavours , textures and smells rather than 'will fill you up' - so I don't think they will be seeing editor any time soon.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> You can book online on their website - or try waiting - totally worth the wait if you love amazing food. Though their 'small plates' are more about great flavours , textures and smells rather than 'will fill you up' - so I don't think they will be seeing editor any time soon.


Although quite a few friends work there and there's some good stuff to be found, I don't like Pop Brixton or what it stands for, so you're quite correct: I won't be spending my money there. The Shoreditch/Clapham foodie experience isn't my thing.


----------



## SpamMisery (Jul 6, 2017)

phillm said:


> You can book online on their website - or try waiting - totally worth the wait if you love amazing food. Though their 'small plates' are more about great flavours , textures and smells rather than 'will fill you up' - so I don't think they will be seeing editor any time soon.



Sounds great


----------



## bimble (Jul 25, 2017)

Had a chat with someone at brixton pound this morning, who was suggesting that some of the community time (one hour per week for all tenants) at Pop could well be used to help our playground venture down the road, where we are in search of free food etc.  She seemed to think it a good fit, promised to send out the message, will wait and see if anything comes of it. Who knows, we might get asparagus ice cream making workshops for all.


----------



## editor (Jul 25, 2017)

When did this lot show up in Pop? They don't sound like much of a local start up. 



> *We’re an award winning live activation agency with over 40 years experience across the globe.*
> 
> Our starting point is to devise a strategy and develop creative concepts aimed at *delivering truly compelling live events*.
> 
> ...


----------



## shakespearegirl (Jul 29, 2017)

phillm said:


> You can book online on their website - or try waiting - totally worth the wait if you love amazing food. Though their 'small plates' are more about great flavours , textures and smells rather than 'will fill you up' - so I don't think they will be seeing editor any time soon.



We went there for dinner tonight. Lovely food, really nice guys running it. They were somewhat upset when they asked where I'd heard about them and I said on an anti pop thread on urban 75. Don't think they understood the background of pop


----------



## phillm (Aug 1, 2017)

shakespearegirl said:


> We went there for dinner tonight. Lovely food, really nice guys running it. They were somewhat upset when they asked where I'd heard about them and I said on an anti pop thread on urban 75. Don't think they understood the background of pop



They are lovely , passionate guys who care about what they do and the impact they have. I really hope they do as well as they deserve to do. They are garnering rave reviews all over the place now and rightly so.  When they were over in an upstairs bar in Islington which didn't seem to be working for them I think I might have mentioned Pop Brixton as the sort of place that would work better for them.

Smoke & Salt, Brixton: small plates pack big, bright flavours


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2017)

phillm said:


> When they were over in an upstairs bar in Islington which didn't seem to be working for them I think I might have mentioned Pop Brixton as the sort of place that would work better for them.


Yes, Pop Brixton appears to be seen as the perfect place to park upwardly mobile - and not particularly affordable -  trendy businesses with no previous connection to the area. 

If only Lambeth hadn't spun a half ton of bullshit about this project at the start to dupe people into thinking it was all about offering a leg-up for locals rather than a 'business park for the 21st century."


----------



## editor (Aug 1, 2017)

shakespearegirl said:


> We went there for dinner tonight. Lovely food, really nice guys running it. They were somewhat upset when they asked where I'd heard about them and I said on an anti pop thread on urban 75. Don't think they understood the background of pop


I don't think the ire is generally aimed at the businesses operating there: it's more about what we were promised and what we got. I've certainly got no bad (or good) feelings towards this lot. They're just another hip business moving in.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 2, 2017)

I think it is more than fair to be pissed off at the broken promises around Pop.
I still want to welcome new businesses opening up in Brixton though. I'd much rather these were small independent businesses than giant chains. 
In my sad middle age years, I prefer to spend my disposable income on going out for a nice meal rather than going to a gig or spending a night in the pub. Doesn't make me a hipster or super trendy - I'm far from either. 
Some of these small businesses will hopefully give local employment opportunities.


----------



## editor (Aug 2, 2017)

shakespearegirl said:


> I think it is more than fair to be pissed off at the broken promises around Pop.
> I still want to welcome new businesses opening up in Brixton though. I'd much rather these were small independent businesses than giant chains.
> In my sad middle age years, I prefer to spend my disposable income on going out for a nice meal rather than going to a gig or spending a night in the pub. Doesn't make me a hipster or super trendy - I'm far from either.
> Some of these small businesses will hopefully give local employment opportunities.


To be fair, almost anything on that site would have produced some local employment opportunities, although the actual return that Lambeth is getting for giving away the site for free is probably less than if they had just opened it up as a car park (which would have benefited local market traders more).

Of course, arch-capitalists Shoreditch property developers The Collective have done very nicely out of the deal. V_ery nicely indeed_. Quite why they were involved in what was supposed to be a community-led project in the first place remains a mystery to me, mind.

Re: nice places to eat. I think we're pretty much full  up on that score now but there's still plenty more incoming.


----------



## Angellic (Aug 2, 2017)

shakespearegirl said:


> I think it is more than fair to be pissed off at the broken promises around Pop.
> I still want to welcome new businesses opening up in Brixton though. I'd much rather these were small independent businesses than giant chains.
> In my sad middle age years, I prefer to spend my disposable income on going out for a nice meal rather than going to a gig or spending a night in the pub. Doesn't make me a hipster or super trendy - I'm far from either.
> Some of these small businesses will hopefully give local employment opportunities.



Why sad? You're doing what you prefer to do. Although Oscar Wilde does come to mind.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Aug 2, 2017)

So, now the site is Pop for the foreseeable future, how can the new businesses be encouraged to interact with and support the local area/residents.

Businesses should be proactive about it, but so should the local community. The Brixton community is changing, there is no doubt about that and I'm interested in how we can help with the engagement process - I've re-written that so many times to not sound like a wanker, but I probably still do..


----------



## bimble (Aug 2, 2017)

Requests for help from us* for donations of food and or volunteer time from Pop have so far resulted in the offer of 10 pizzas (to be collected by us the day before our opening. so, cold pizzas? Still trying but  

*(community volunteer group trying to save adventure playground down the road)


----------



## editor (Aug 2, 2017)

shakespearegirl said:


> So, now the site is Pop for the foreseeable future, how can the new businesses be encouraged to interact with and support the local area/residents.
> 
> Businesses should be proactive about it, but so should the local community. The Brixton community is changing, there is no doubt about that and I'm interested in how we can help with the engagement process - I've re-written that so many times to not sound like a wanker, but I probably still do..


The only interaction Buzz gets is people asking us to advertise/feature their services/events at Pop.

Quite a few have used the free facility to list their events for free in the calendar, but apart from that there's precious little of that 'reaching out' I hear about. Buzz has given dosh to at least one of the businesses there, mind, and I've done a couple of features.


----------



## hungry_squirrel (Oct 4, 2017)

Anyone see The Apprentice? Pop making a cameo appearance!


----------



## editor (Oct 4, 2017)

hungry_squirrel said:


> Anyone see The Apprentice? Pop making a cameo appearance!


A perfect match. Pushy Blairite entrepreneurs and The Collective.


----------



## alex_kelsey (Oct 6, 2017)

Hi there,

I am a UCL Geography student currently doing my dissertation research on Pop Brixton / Brixton's markets. I am looking for local people who would be willing to spare me 30 minutes or so to discuss their thoughts on the Pop Brixton development and how it has affected Brixton's society / local retail environment. If you are interested, please email me at (NOPE: ED) and we can arrange to meet in Brixton for an informal interview. I'm very grateful for anyone willing to help me out and share their thoughts on the situation. Many thanks, Alex Kelsey


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2017)

alex_kelsey said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I am a UCL Geography student currently doing my dissertation research on Pop Brixton / Brixton's markets. I am looking for local people who would be willing to spare me 30 minutes or so to discuss their thoughts on the Pop Brixton development and how it has affected Brixton's society / local retail environment. If you are interested, please email me at (NOPE: ED) and we can arrange to meet in Brixton for an informal interview. I'm very grateful for anyone willing to help me out and share their thoughts on the situation. Many thanks, Alex Kelsey


Please read the FAQ. We're not here for free research. We're a bulletin board so either contribute or leave. If you view this thread, you'll get a lot of the answers you seek.


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2017)

Some bunch of yuppie wannabe entrepreneur twats were filmed in Pop Brixton trying to flog their entrepreneurial burgers for The Apprentice but it was "so quiet" that there was  "literally no one here."

And then some piss weak backstory got into the press about someone seeing their husband in the background.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 18, 2017)

cuppa tee said:


> so......Pop is going to be the location of a " community fridge"
> 
> Community Fridge Launches In Brixton, Where Local Businesses Can Donate Spare Food To Those In Need | The Huffington Post
> 
> strange juxtaposition putting it in a "foodie hotspot"



And almost a year later funding for a wider network of them:

The Community Fridge, coming to a corner near you?


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2017)

snowy_again said:


> And almost a year later funding for a wider network of them:
> 
> The Community Fridge, coming to a corner near you?



Let's hope they put the rest in more accessible locations.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 18, 2017)

I think you can click on the link in the map and find them?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2017)

I see there's one in Camberwell too.


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2017)

There's been all sorts of interesting things happening around Pop Brixton. Major staff upheavals and some people waiting to be paid...


----------



## Angellic (Dec 18, 2017)

editor said:


> There's been all sorts of interesting things happening around Pop Brixton. Major staff upheavals and some people waiting to be paid...



When do we get the details?


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2017)

Angellic said:


> When do we get the details?


Well, you can just ask them about the change of staff, but the other stuff has to wait for various reasons.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2017)

I was at the Brixton Neighborhood Forum last Thursday. Pop came up. ( A lot of things came up and I want to write up notes over Xmas to post up). As Pop thread has been updated thought I would post this up from what was said at Neighborhood Forum.

The senior Council officer present said that Pop existing lease is going to be extended to 2019. The Council haven't decided what to do with site yet. So extending the lease.

This didn't go down well with the local residents who are part of Sleepless in Brixton. I can understand.  They thought that Pop was temporary use. So the nuisance it causes would be limited. Now the Council extend lease. Sleepless in Brixton say Pop isn't managed effectively so causes problems.

The senior Council officer present didn't argue with this but said the Council had hired consultants to do an "independent" evaluation of Pop.

This came as news to those present at the Forum. Apparently this evaluation has been in process over last six months.

I did ask what the terms of the evaluation were. The officer replied the report was qualitative and quantitative. People at meeting queried whether local people had been asked there opinion. The consultants had , according to officer, been interviewing local stakeholders ( his word. I thought its use had been scrapped. It's been coming back into use in Council.) Though those present including Sleepless in Brixton and Brixton Society couldn't remember being asked. Nor did anyone else at meeting know about this evaluation.

The officer said the report has been finished by the consultants. It's not yet in public domain as it's going through the Council first. Officer did say it's not uncritical. He kind of had to say something like that as Brixton Neighborhood Forum audience has hardly ever been enthusiastic about Pop. Officer did offer to come back to another meeting to go over the report in detail.


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I was at the Brixton Neighborhood Forum last Thursday. Pop came up. ( A lot of things came up and I want to write up notes over Xmas to post up). As Pop thread has been updated thought I would post this up from what was said at Neighborhood Forum.
> 
> The senior Council officer present said that Pop existing lease is going to be extended to 2019. The Council haven't decided what to do with site yet. So extending the lease.
> 
> ...


Is anyone remotely surprised that the lease is being extended? 

Barely anything from the original thing we were promised has rung true.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2017)

editor said:


> Is anyone remotely surprised that the lease is being extended?
> 
> Barely anything from the original thing we were promised has rung true.



I don't think it was much of a surprise. This is a Council pet project. I was a bit pissed off that the six months of "consultation" on evaluating this project passed me , and others present at meeting , by without our input being asked for.

I'm on the Future Brixton email list, attend Brixton Neighborhood Forum, belong to couple of local groups and somehow never get asked my opinion.


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I don't think it was much of a surprise. This is a Council pet project. I was a bit pissed off that the six months of "consultation" on evaluating this project passed me , and others present at meeting , by without our input being asked for.
> 
> I'm on the Future Brixton email list, attend Brixton Neighborhood Forum, belong to couple of local groups and somehow never get asked my opinion.


Did anyone ask them how much profit it had generated for the council in all the time it's been there?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2017)

editor said:


> Is anyone remotely surprised that the lease is being extended?
> 
> Barely anything from the original thing we were promised has rung true.



The officer, who is nice guy on personal level, did report on all the Council's wonderful projects in Brixton. "Our" New Town Hall etc. Met with world weary lack of enthusiasm.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2017)

editor said:


> Did anyone ask them how much profit it had generated for the council in all the time it's been there?



No. I thought of that afterwards. Wished I had asked about the profit share. Or if Pop is making enough to do profit share. Will remember when report comes up at another Forum meeting. Or Officer from Council talks about Pop. Which they like doing as they think it's great success and don't understand the lack of enthusiasm for it in some quarters of Brixton.

As Pop has lease extended you would think it should be doing profit share by now. Funnily enough profit share isn't something the officers go on about. They now push it as supplying social value only.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

What a fucking farce. 

"Pop Brixton is having its lease extended for another two years – despite making a loss of £480,000 in the past year and receiving £100,000 in public grants and a £92,000 loan from Lambeth Council."

So us taxpayers have effectively been funding this shit for no return. And Lambeth are now extending it.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

Let's hear all you Pop fans defend the huge loss and cost to the council and us taxpayers. And this:



> The original idea was for businesses based at Pop to give back to the local community via a weekly volunteering commitment. Brixton Pound was acting as a facilitator for the scheme, matching up local needs with the skills that Pop has to offer.
> 
> Brixton Pound confirmed to Brixton Buzz:
> 
> “The community investment scheme came to an end in November and as far as we’re aware they’re taking the scheme forward in-house.”


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

How the fuck can this happen? 


> The report states that management costs for Pop Brixton are £3,214,148. This is compared to an original quote of £214,000 that was given for the community growing project. The increase is explained in terms of ‘security and toilets.’


THREE MILLION QUID to manage a load of tatty containers and hipster shops. Something's not right here. 

They could have given the entire space to a kid to sell home made lemonade and still made more money than shitty Pop Brixton has. It's a fucking disgrace, just like I've been saying all along.

And how do these incompetent cunts get to run Peckham Levels?


----------



## Skam (Jan 11, 2018)

Why should the hipster brigade be allowed to pop up and remain without paying any rent when the real Brixton businesses (who offer everything and more) are being pushed out because they can’t afford the rising rent - following 20 years of profitable trading?


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

Skam said:


> Why should the hipster brigade be allowed to pop up and remain without paying any rent when the real Brixton businesses (who offer everything and more) are being pushed out because they can’t afford the rising rent - following 20 years of profitable trading?


Well, indeed. Why the fuck did Lambeth hand over this rent free land to a bunch of freespending chancers who didn't give a fuck about providing something for the existing community? 

And what the fuck are Mayfair property profiteers The Collective doing in a 'community' project?


----------



## CH1 (Jan 11, 2018)

There has to be some fraud in this. If it had been a Ted Knight promotion the Daily Mail and the Telegraph would have been crawling all over this.

How many libraries could the Pop Brixton fraud have kept open?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2018)

I'd recommend anyone interested in the facts relating to the lease extension reads the Lambeth report, rather than the Buzz article that selectively quotes it and includes some misleading and/or wrong statements.

This is not me saying I'm a supporter of Pop Brixton or the proposed extension. It is me saying that the Buzz article is badly written though.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

I literally don't know any locals who support or regularly visit Pop Brixton, or anyone who is likely to believe Lambeth's spin on what's going on. 

For a rent free commercial venture to end up in such immense debt is truly unforgivable.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

There's some decent companies operating from Pop Brixton but a big chunk of the place is taken over by trendy foodie joints, beer dispensers and companies which I would suggest fall far short of the promised original vision of some sort of community based start up for locals. 

Here's ten examples: 

1. The New Zealand Cellar, "the UK’s only wine retailer dedicated solely to promoting and selling New Zealand wines"
2. Franzina Trattoria, run by Pietro and Stefania, two Sicilians from Palermo.
3. Scoop, 'boutique ice cream serving 'high quality italian artisan gelato'
4. Minerva Tutors, an education company offering "private academic tuition to all ages" (Head office in the city)
5. 28 Well Hung, prime beef with branches in Southbank, Brixton and Battersea
6. Brixton BID
7. World of Wurst, 'bringing gourmet sausages to London.'
8. Lowe Property Guardians, 'providing property owners with a professional, efficient and low-cost solution to the problems created by leaving a building vacant...'
9. The Manual, 'an award winning live activation agency with over 40 years experience across the globe'
10. Convene, 'Designed to meet the needs of senior level executives and administrators, Azeus Convene advocates for smarter meetings.'


----------



## sealion (Jan 11, 2018)

editor said:


> Lowe Property Guardians,


Who have basically turned squatting into a business.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Jan 11, 2018)

Almost thrown my phone across the room in rage. Too angry to even think / post straight.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

sealion said:


> Who have basically turned squatting into a business.


Yep. Utter scumbags.


----------



## sealion (Jan 11, 2018)

Reminds me of what happened to some friends that lived in Clifton mansions. Physically removed by ob and rent o thug baliffs, then offered there flat back at a price but with no rights what so ever.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

sealion said:


> Reminds me of what happened to some friends that lived in Clifton mansions. Physically removed by ob and rent o thug baliffs, then offered there flat back at a price but with no rights what so ever.


Its bad enough having Mayfair property developers with their paws all over the place, but how the fuck can Pop justify inviting scummy property guardians into the 'green oasis'?



> Lowe Guardians was formed to provide property owners with a professional, efficient and cost-effective solution to the issues created by a vacant building.
> 
> As London’s premier property guardian company, we have a proven track record of protecting vacant buildings from squatting, mitigating business rates and lowering insurance premiums - all at no additional cost to property owners.
> 
> Lowe Guardians extensively vets all guardians. We've also built a dedicated and reliable team that take excellent care of your property.


Ugh.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 11, 2018)

teuchter said:


> I'd recommend anyone interested in the facts relating to the lease extension reads the Lambeth report, rather than the Buzz article that selectively quotes it and includes some misleading and/or wrong statements.
> 
> This is not me saying I'm a supporter of Pop Brixton or the proposed extension. It is me saying that the Buzz article is badly written though.



I just have read the report. It's pretty damning. I don't have a problem with the Brixton Buzz article. It's informative with links to relevant more detailed info.

The profit share has been a failure. Pop simply isn't breaking even. The report recommends some kind of base rent in the lease extension. With a profit share at end of project. Whatever has been paid in "base rent" will be deducted from the profit share in the new lease extension.

The report argues the extension will mean the Council is more likely to get some money. Which begs  the question what would have happened if the site had been up for regeneration at the time first forecast? The Council would have had to written off any profit share.

Council officers say the Council has been foregoing £39 000 a year in rent on this site that Council would have got if they had rented it out privately.

Given that money could have been put into local community I don't see why Pop is necessarily better use of the land.

I also noticed this in the report:



> 2.3 The final build costs for Pop Brixton are £1,867,415, for 1400 sqm, which shows a large change in
> scope from the original forecast of £423,720 for 774 sqm*. This represents a change from the
> original bid in which there were limited food and retail spaces and larger maker spaces. *




This is Council saying the project changed from original bid. Something people like me have been saying all along.


----------



## editor (Jan 11, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> This is Council saying the project changed from original bid. Something people like me have been saying all along.


And me too but it seems some posters here have been in a weird denial about what was blazingly obvious to anyone who had kept an eye on what was promised and what was delivered.

The hike in build costs from £423,720 to an eyewatering £1,867,415 is nothing short of outrageous, and despite some people earlier in this thread insisting that the project hadn't grown in size, the expansion from the original 774 sqm to to 1,400 sqm represents a hefty change.

Pop has been a con from the start, and it's one that's costing the community dear. Just imagine what could have been dine with that site. And all that bullshit about Grow Brixton not being to deliver on their costings look laughable after this lot scooped £3.2m in admin costs. 

To lose so much money on a _rent free venture_ is breathtakingly inept.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 11, 2018)

Another issue brought up in the Council report on the lease extension is Community Safety.



> 8 Community safety
> 8.1 Community safety has been addressed for this site through the Planning and Licensing process.



As I've posted up previously at the Brixton Neighborhood Forum meeting Sleepless in Brixton group weren't happy that the Council has decided to give a lease extension to Pop. This one line in report isnt good enough.

The Council did not even try to consult local community on lease extension to Pop. At the Brixton Neighborhood Forum we were just told that it was happening. No discussion.

Another thing. At the Brixton Neighborhood Forum the senior officer present said the Council had just had a report on Pop finished by consultants it had hired. Not for public viewing at this time. He said it wasn't uncritical. Yet reading this report by Council about a lease extension it's saying that that Pop is meeting all its social value that was promised.


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## Lucy Fur (Jan 12, 2018)

Utter shit but no surprise really. My post from Oct 2015


Lucy Fur said:


> Is it hypothetically possible, that if it proves to be a 'success', Lambeth can extend the lease, start to recieve rent, and in effect Pop becomes a permanent fixture? I've always felt that too much has gone into setting it up for just a two year or so existance.



And it hasn't even proved a success


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## editor (Jan 12, 2018)

Lucy Fur said:


> Utter shit but no surprise really. My post from Oct 2015
> 
> 
> And it hasn't even proved a success


And yet the team behind this colossal flop then get gifted Peckham Levels.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 12, 2018)

Lucy Fur said:


> Utter shit but no surprise really. My post from Oct 2015
> 
> 
> And it hasn't even proved a success


I expect Lambeth will say that it has proved a success, having provided what they consider "social value" at - assuming things work out according to the forecasts - minimal or zero cost to the council.

What the Lambeth report doesn't say is what rent they propose to charge as part of the lease extension deal. That number would seem rather significant in assessing the final cost/benefit of the scheme, and I would ask why it is missing from the report.


----------



## editor (Jan 12, 2018)

I'm so happy that the loss making Pop was able to provide a home to those wonderful property guardians people with zero connection to the area.


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## Twattor (Jan 12, 2018)

I found the Lambeth report quite interesting although there are a few areas which interest me because of the lack of information. It doesn't explain why the size of the development has doubled, or why the square meter build costs more than doubled - these figures just seem to have been accepted.  I'd also expect to see a robust justification of the staggeringly high management costs rather than just a statement about security and public toilets. What were they expecting to have to provide?  These would seem pretty obvious considerations.  The paragraph about lost rent is unclear - is that the lost figure after the rent restructure, or the figure they are trying to mitigate?

Pop's response to their financial predicament seems to be sensible - they've increased the proportion of bars and restaurants and decreased the proportion of community uses which wouldn't pay as much; although this is likely to have a feedback effect on their management costs with more security and toilets. They're also introducing a sliding rent scale so the bars and restaurants pay higher rents and profit shares which will to some extent subsidise the rents of the community and startup units. That's sensible. Surely some community use is better than no community use, and if Lambeth can recover any money then that has to be better than no money.

Yes Pop appears to be running at a loss but that money is going somewhere be it to security companies, cleaners, builders etc. Normally people on here would be jumping up and down about excess profit. The plan still appears to be to try to generate some profit of which Lambeth will be entitled to half. Who is to say that the edible bus stop proposals would have been profitable.  They may well have found themselves trying to find means of additional funding and subjected to the same vilification.  Ultimately, if the regeneration masterplan has been put back 2 years then the options are to take pop down when the lease expires in October, then find a new use for the space for two years with all the associated setup costs and time lost, or renew Pop's lease and see if it can bring in some revenue.

Interestingly another thing missing from the report is a budget for the takedown cost.  I wonder whether this has been factored in.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 12, 2018)

Twattor said:


> I found the Lambeth report quite interesting although there are a few areas which interest me because of the lack of information. It doesn't explain why the size of the development has doubled, or why the square meter build costs more than doubled - these figures just seem to have been accepted.  I'd also expect to see a robust justification of the staggeringly high management costs rather than just a statement about security and public toilets. What were they expecting to have to provide?  These would seem pretty obvious considerations.  The paragraph about lost rent is unclear - is that the lost figure after the rent restructure, or the figure they are trying to mitigate?
> 
> Pop's response to their financial predicament seems to be sensible - they've increased the proportion of bars and restaurants and decreased the proportion of community uses which wouldn't pay as much; although this is likely to have a feedback effect on their management costs with more security and toilets. They're also introducing a sliding rent scale so the bars and restaurants pay higher rents and profit shares which will to some extent subsidise the rents of the community and startup units. That's sensible. Surely some community use is better than no community use, and if Lambeth can recover any money then that has to be better than no money.
> 
> ...



It's difficult to see where that huge lump of management costs mentioned in the Lambeth report appears in their accounts. They don't seem consistent. I wondered if there's an error in the arithmetic or even just a typo somewhere? It would be surprising for it not to be picked up upon if so though. But I'm no expert in understanding company accounts.


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## wurlycurly (Jan 12, 2018)

teuchter said:


> It's difficult to see where that huge lump of management costs mentioned in the Lambeth report appears in their accounts. They don't seem consistent. I wondered if there's an error in the arithmetic or even just a typo somewhere? It would be surprising for it not to be picked up upon if so though. But I'm no expert in understanding company accounts.



I was wondering that as well. It can't, in all seriousness, be £3m. As CH1 has already pointed out, that's a hell of a lot of library funding.


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## editor (Jan 12, 2018)

wurlycurly said:


> I was wondering that as well. It can't, in all seriousness, be £3m. As CH1 has already pointed out, that's a hell of a lot of library funding.


Given that they were so outrageously late in filing their accounts, you'd think that they'd had_ plenty of time_ to ensure that the numbers were correct and double checked. They certainly haven't issued any corrections.

How they managed to make a loss of half a million quid in a year (despite being given £192k from grants and loans) on a rent free site is something to be alarmed by. How can a place like that lose nearly £10k a week?

And if they are indeed trousering £3.2m for admin costs then looks very suspect about the whole thing.

Don't forget that they lost £266k the previous year, so this place is haemorrhaging more and more money, so to extend its lease in the hope of turning it into a profit looks to be the stuff of fairy tales.

The whole exercise has been an embarrassment for Lambeth and a cruel blow to the community who were promised so much.


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## teuchter (Jan 12, 2018)

wurlycurly said:


> I was wondering that as well. It can't, in all seriousness, be £3m. As CH1 has already pointed out, that's a hell of a lot of library funding.


It's not 3m (if it really is 3m) of Lambeth's money though. It's not money that would otherwise be spent on libraries. It's 3m that the company has/will spend and if they don't make it back by the end of the period it's them that lose it.
What CH1 was talking about was the rent that Lambeth could have got for the site had they simply let it out on a "normal" arrangement. Which Lambeth say would be around 40k a year.


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## editor (Jan 12, 2018)

Imagine how much money Lambeth could have made from this site if they'd handed it over to a competent local enterprise rather than this bunch of hapless chancers and the Mayfair based property development business 'who like to target ambitious young professionals.' Lambeth was supposed to take back some of the profits on the site, but with the place plunging ever further more massive debt, I'd say it's highly unlikely it's ever going to be anything other than a total disaster. 

It's actually hard to think of any business that could do worse on a rent free site.

Still, I'm sure the NZ wine importing business and those property guardians are well chuffed.


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## Gramsci (Jan 12, 2018)

Resding some of the previous posts can I remind people the Council regarded this as an experiment.

What concerned me from the recent Brixton Neighborhood Forum meeting was the Council's refusal to look at this project from a critical angle. Or even ask those at the Forum there opinion.

The Council report makes a lot of assertions about Pop delivering on its Service Level Agreement but provides no links to independent evidence that this is the case. As the Council report by officers is seeking extension of lease I would have thought this would be a serious issue.

Something else I noticed from reading the Council report. It says the SLA is being met. One example is that out of approximately 80 business 8 are getting affordable rent. At bottom of report is link to previous report from 2015 about justifying Pop getting funding bypassing the tendering process. In this early report in Pops life it says the aim was for 20% affordable. 8 of 80 is 10%.  So what happened in the Service Level Agreement?


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## Gramsci (Jan 12, 2018)

Twattor said:


> Normally people on here would be jumping up and down about excess profit. The plan still appears to be to try to generate some profit of which Lambeth will be entitled to half. Who is to say that the edible bus stop proposals would have been profitable.  They may well have found themselves trying to find means of additional funding and subjected to the same vilification. n.



As you have decided to have a swipe at Brixton forum posters which ones are you talking about? Am I included?


----------



## Twattor (Jan 12, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> As you have decided to have a swipe at Brixton forum posters which ones are you talking about? Am I included?


Actually, no. Although we often disagree I've always found you to be well reasoned, well researched and you always put your point across very well. You're a hard person to argue against and you make me question my own opinions, which is important. It would be wonderful if all posters were like you.

What I struggle with is assumptions,  reactionary invective and hatred. Extremist opinions and ignorance are always a bad thing.


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## Gramsci (Jan 12, 2018)

From the Council report:


> 2.5 Furthermore, to offset some of these costs, in the 2016/17 financial year, Pop entered into a
> revenue share arrangement of 13.5% with the bars on site, based on an open book relationship.
> This has helped to pay for added security and the running of the site. Pop introduced a revenue
> share of 12.5% for the more successful street food businesses, 10% for restaurants and 10% for
> ...



Another thing from the report is that the individual business have little rights with there landlord Pop. The Council made sure that they don't have security under the Landlord and Tenant Act.

Pop has decided to bring in its own profit share for the business its landlord of. Despite being unable to give Lambeth a profit share. Looks to me that Pop financial problems are being put onto the existing small business.

I find the paragraph above slightly unclear. The way I read it is that this "revenue share agreement" is on top of the set rent. As these business don't have security I wonder how much bargaining power they really have.


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## editor (Jan 13, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> From the Council report:
> 
> 
> Another thing from the report is that the individual business have little rights with there landlord Pop. The Council made sure that they don't have security under the Landlord and Tenant Act.
> ...


How the hell did this bunch of cash-losing clowns get to run Peckham Levels? They made a colossal fuck up of this rent free site and gave precisely fuck all back to the council, so why on earth would anyone give them another big place to run? Something smells veh fishy here.


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## Gramsci (Jan 13, 2018)

editor said:


> How the hell did this bunch of cash-losing clowns get to run Peckham Levels? They made a colossal fuck up of this rent free site and gave precisely fuck all back to the council, so why on earth would anyone give them another big place to run? Something smells veh fishy here.



It's an example of how Capitalism can work. I remember some one saying to me the Turner wanted to extend the Pop idea elsewhere. Pop was just a stepping stone. A business can go a long way without breaking even if it can persuade investors and lenders long term that it's business model is profitable.

I reckon that Turner, through extra " revenue generating" on his tenants on Pop may break even by the end. I think the Council report on lease extension doesn't look at scenario of no profit share. It's a glaring admission in the report. The section in the report on risks to the Council of refusing lease extension say that if extension of lease not granted and Pop fails financially then this will adversely affect the reputation of the Council. The way that I read this is that Pop is to big to fail now. The Council have invested so much political capital into it that they will do anything they can to stop it from failing.

None of this makes me think that Pop is a way of doing things that should be replicated.

What I want is proper discussion with local community of what they think of this model of marrying private entrepreneurship with social value.


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## Gramsci (Jan 13, 2018)

Here is the risk section of the Council report on the lease extension.



> Risk management
> 6.1 The main risk of not taking forward the recommendations in this report are that the project would not
> be financially viable and could fail. This would have a significant negative impact on the social and
> economic outcomes that could have been delivered to the local community and economy. *There is
> also significant reputational risk to the Council.*



It's also saying the Pop business model wasn't viable for the time period of the original lease. 

And still isn't. Supposedly will break even in 2019. So profit share will only be for one year. If project ends in 2020.


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## Twattor (Jan 13, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> From the Council report:
> 
> 
> Another thing from the report is that the individual business have little rights with there landlord Pop. The Council made sure that they don't have security under the Landlord and Tenant Act.
> ...


None of this is surprising - it was intended to be a short term project so landlord and tenant rights would need to be waived. One of the points made in the report was that businesses wouldn't commit to another year without the certainty that pop would continue for that long. All understandable.

The profit share based on an open book approach is important, but I would like to see this open book approach being extended beyond the commercial tenancies to encompass the whole project. Given the failure to meet objectives Lambeth as landlord ought to have enough leverage to demand this. Some of the numbers being bandied about feel wrong and ought to be interrogated.


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## CH1 (Jan 13, 2018)

Twattor said:


> Yes Pop appears to be running at a loss but that money is going somewhere be it to security companies, cleaners, builders etc. Normally people on here would be jumping up and down about excess profit.


Just wanted to have a word about management fees/charges. BTW is there a link upthread to the accounts?

I have worked in charity accounts in the past, and management charges were usually a device to move money out of a funded project into a separate budget heading to pay core and staffing costs.

The problem is that it is not transparent - in fact it is designed not to be. In cases I've seen you might have say as charge of 7.5% of turnover.
In fact this 7.5% figure would be sufficient to pay the unfunded overhead but not sufficient to upset the funders.

I have not seen the actual Pop Brixton accounts -but all I can say is that the management charges might be build into the business model and agreed by the council in advance - or they might be a sign that Pop Brixton is being "milked" despite apparently running at a loss.


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## editor (Jan 13, 2018)

CH1 said:


> Just wanted to have a word about management fees/charges. BTW is there a link upthread to the accounts?
> 
> I have worked in charity accounts in the past, and management charges were usually a device to move money out of a funded project into a separate budget heading to pay core and staffing costs.


Pop Brixton is not a charity, though. It declares itself to be a " community initiative" showcasing "the most exciting independent businesses from Brixton and Lambeth."


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## CH1 (Jan 13, 2018)

editor said:


> Pop Brixton is not a charity, though. It declares itself to be a " community initiative" showcasing "the most exciting independent businesses from Brixton and Lambeth."


I appreciate that - I was rather qualifying my own experience, i.e. I have never done the book-keeping in a "for profit" business.
But the accounting principle of "top slicing" to move money from one heading to another is surely the same.

I have now got the accounts from  Companies house (below)
Firstly auditor is KPMG (the ones who had to stand down from the Grenfell Tower inquiry due to having their fingers in every possible pie).
The accounts are qualified - going concern basis. This actually means that if one of the people owed money pulled out it would NOT be a going concern.
Shareholders funds of -£747,444 is pretty dire for an outfit selling drinks and meals primarily.
To be honest this must rank as a rather poor council-backed enterprise. The social content is a bit new Labour/high Tory - providing catering jobs at minimum wage, security guards at minimum wage and helping low-tec start ups whose proprietors can be from any borough apparently.

The is no way (in my opinion) that Brixton Challenge would have funded this.

Final point - please note that certain "investors" got paid £98,797 (see note 3)  This seems a bit outrageous, given that the firm has made a big loss. It all reeks of someone playing the same games as Sir Philip Green on a smaller scale.


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## Tricky Skills (Jan 13, 2018)

Pop changed accountants from Lewis and Co to KPMG, who appear to be too large to be preparing accounts for such a relatively small enterprise. I wonder if this is the reason for the delay in signing off the accounts?

Smaller accountants tend to be a bit more ethical than the big four accountants as they are easier to sue. It may be that Lewis & Co wouldn’t sign off the company as a going concern, hence Pop Brixton went to KPMG, a company that will sign off just about anything when it comes to Lambeth Council.


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## CH1 (Jan 13, 2018)

Hate to tell people this, but Channel 4 news just now had a report from Pop Brixton to do with food preparation, the needs of disabled people and the menace of excess packaging.

The location is not very obvious, but the reporter, Symeon Brown announced the segment was coming from Pop Brixton and interviewed a guy from Smoke and Salt for a bit. He had to apologise to other interviewees that they were not broadcast

I supposed people very keen to catch it still have time on Channel 4 +1 when the bulletin is shown at 7.30 pm
Can't see it on the C4 news website.


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## editor (Jan 13, 2018)

CH1 said:


> Hate to tell people this, but Channel 4 news just now had a report from Pop Brixton to do with food preparation, the needs of disabled people and the menace of excess packaging.
> 
> The location is not very obvious, but the reporter, Symeon Brown announced the segment was coming from Pop Brixton and interviewed a guy from Smoke and Salt for a bit. He had to apologise to other interviewees that they were not broadcast
> 
> ...


Perhaps they wanted to highlight the amazeballs prep that goes into super trendy "seasonal plates of food that incorporate a variety of ancient techniques" in a failing hipster green oasis business park.


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## Gramsci (Jan 13, 2018)

Twattor said:


> None of this is surprising - it was intended to be a short term project so landlord and tenant rights would need to be waived. One of the points made in the report was that businesses wouldn't commit to another year without the certainty that pop would continue for that long. All understandable.
> 
> The profit share based on an open book approach is important, but I would like to see this open book approach being extended beyond the commercial tenancies to encompass the whole project. Given the failure to meet objectives Lambeth as landlord ought to have enough leverage to demand this. Some of the numbers being bandied about feel wrong and ought to be interrogated.



I can see why the tenancies are weak it explains why in the report. It does have the consequence that the tenants are in a weak position in relation to the landlord. The way I read the report is that the open book profit share with Pop is on top of existing rent. Be interested to know how Pop persuaded the existing business to sign up to this. It doesn't seem fair to me if that is the case. As far as I can gather Pop is charging market rents for most business.


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## Tricky Skills (Jan 21, 2018)

Here's the Lambeth press release to explain the success story of Pop Brixton. It makes no reference to the lease being extended to give Pop the opportunity to make some money to pay back the Lambeth loan.


----------



## alex_ (Jan 21, 2018)

editor said:


> How the hell did this bunch of cash-losing clowns get to run Peckham Levels? They made a colossal fuck up of this rent free site and gave precisely fuck all back to the council, so why on earth would anyone give them another big place to run? Something smells veh fishy here.



By not submitting any accounts until Peckham levels was a done deal ?

Alex


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## editor (Jan 21, 2018)

alex_ said:


> By not submitting any accounts until Peckham levels was a done deal ?
> 
> Alex


That must border on criminal, no?


----------



## editor (Jan 21, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> Here's the Lambeth press release to explain the success story of Pop Brixton. It makes no reference to the lease being extended to give Pop the opportunity to make some money to pay back the Lambeth loan.


Strange that it forgets to mention that the rent free land has lost half a million with the admin lot trousering £3.2m to run a pile of rusty old containers.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 21, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> Here's the Lambeth press release to explain the success story of Pop Brixton. It makes no reference to the lease being extended to give Pop the opportunity to make some money to pay back the Lambeth loan.


The link to the "evaluation report" in the Lambeth piece doesn't work for me - however I managed to download it here

http://futurebrixton.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Pop-Brixton-Evaluation-18.0104.pdf


----------



## teuchter (Jan 21, 2018)

Some bits from the report...



> Pop Brixton encountered a number of challenges at inception stage. The ‘Grow Brixton’ project which
> was originally selected by Lambeth Council to deliver the project was a team with no track record in
> delivery, and comprised a number of partners who hadn’t worked together before. Despite being
> selected, the ‘Grow Brixton’ team were ultimately unable to work together to deliver the project as
> ...





> Reflecting the council’s inclusive growth objectives, community buy-in was an important objective of the
> project. However, a balanced and pragmatic approach is needed in this respect. While Lambeth Council looked
> to engage the local community in Pop Brixton from an early stage, this raised expectations regarding the
> ongoing role of the community in detailed planning and delivery. More could also have been done at this
> ...


----------



## teuchter (Jan 21, 2018)

> 8. Prioritising detailed construction planning and investing in specialist support
> Given the level of ambition and innovation of Pop, the successful delivery of the project in the space of 12
> months is a considerable achievement. That said, a number of challenges were faced along the way.
> The clearest demonstration of this is through the evolution in the design and the cost of the scheme: originally
> ...


----------



## teuchter (Jan 21, 2018)

> 10. The phasing of delivery
> Linked to the above, the phasing of a project such as Pop is an important consideration. On opening, much of
> Pop comprised food and drink uses, which reflected demand. However, this perpetuated debate among local
> commentators about social and economic change, and a perception among some that Pop did not ‘reflect’ the
> ...


----------



## alex_ (Jan 21, 2018)

editor said:


> That must border on criminal, no?



I’d image that lawyers fees and fines would be included in management costs....

Alex


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## Gramsci (Jan 21, 2018)

Ive looked in the "independent" evaluation report appendix A on consultation.

As I said it came up at last Brixton Neighborhood Forum. People present were surprised to hear that the Council had appointed "independent" report on Pop. Brixton Neighborhood Forum hadn't been asked. Nor had Brixton Society.

Appendix A gives four groups consulted . Tenants of Pop, Community groups operating in Pop, surveys of visitors to Pop and surveys of town centre business.

So no local community groups or local individuals not visiting Pop were actively sought out to ask there opinion.

This despite the Council officer at the Brixton Neighborhood Forum saying they had been given the opportunity.

Pretty poor for an independent report not to go out and ask locals.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 21, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Ive looked in the "independent" evaluation report appendix A on consultation.
> 
> As I said it came up at last Brixton Neighborhood Forum. People present were surprised to hear that the Council had appointed "independent" report on Pop. Brixton Neighborhood Forum hadn't been asked. Nor had Brixton Society.
> 
> ...




It seems that they did speak to local businesses. But it does seem to dodge the questions about impact on local residents somewhat. Noise impact at night is mentioned but is not given many column-inches.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 21, 2018)

Lambeth's line seems to be that although the scheme is not making them any money (yet?) via the profit share, it's a success based on the various social (and economical) benefits it's provided. Their measure of the social benefit seems to rely quite heavily on the "Community Investment Scheme Programmes" and what they have provided. I find the detail in the report on what has *actually* been provided to be rather fuzzy. They mention total hours spent, and types of activity, but no more detail than that. It makes me sceptical about how usefully all these volunteer hours have really been used. It seems to me with these kinds of things that a lot of people can put in a lot of hours but unless the scheme is well organised and targeted it's liable to provide limited real benefit. Here's what they say about what's been provided:



> Community Investment Scheme Programmes
> 
> 1) Employment and training: Employment related events, programmes and activities designed to support the development of professional skills and employability. Includes mentorship, apprenticeships, work experience & training.
> 
> ...



So, how many hours have been spent supporting mentorship or apprenticeships that help people into employment that they might otherwise not have had access to?
And how many hours have been spent offering wine-tasting sessions?

For there to be any point to reports like this, they have to probe a bit deeper, I think.

There seems to be an implication that the writers of the report were not that convinced by the demonstrability of the scheme's effectiveness:



> LEARNING POINT: While the Community Investment Scheme is starting to deliver strongly in terms of outputs, information is more limited at this point in time regarding the ultimate outcomes of the time committed and the interventions delivered.
> 
> As the delivery of the scheme progresses, there would be value in the Pop team tracking the story of individuals and businesses benefiting from support, to understand the true value and impact of the intervention.



But the softly-softly language of "learning points" makes it clear that it's not a report that's prepared to make criticism of Pop or Lambeth very explicit.

My reading of the "learning points" conveys to me that although they don't say it outright, Lambeth somewhat screwed up the initial brief and financial forecasts. They also screwed up in appointing an initial team that wasn't realistically able to deliver what they wanted. The capital costs were way, way more than anticipated. The project has been a success in that it's been made to work commercially despite this bad organisation at the outset. They seem to think it has some level of financial sustainability although really only with this lease extension to give it enough time to start paying back its capital costs. There does seem to have been some kind of positive outcome for many of the businesses setting up within pop and the figures on the proportion of these owned locally, etc, don't seem bad. It seems there are some benefits for other local businesses resulting from increased footfall but only for certain types of businesses (mainly food and drink). There seem to be some genuine social benefits but the detail on a lot of it is a bit unclear. The negative effects on local businesses and residents seem to have been brushed under the carpet somewhat.


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## Tricky Skills (Jan 22, 2018)

The Community Investment Scheme Programme was run by Brixton Pound. They pulled out of this in November of last year. Brixton Pound told Buzz that they understand that Pop is now managing this scheme internally.


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## editor (Jan 22, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> The Community Investment Scheme Programme was run by Brixton Pound. They pulled out of this in November of last year. Brixton Pound told Buzz that they understand that Pop is now managing this scheme internally.


I was under the impression that Pop Brixton told the Brixton Pound that there services were no longer needed.


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## editor (Jan 22, 2018)

I can't imagine many of the stalls and businesses surrounding Pop Brixton benefited very much from their presence, particularly given the fact that most of the traffic to the place happens at night when it turns into The Biggest Pub In Brixton ©.


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## Gramsci (Jan 23, 2018)

Started to have a look at this long report.

If evidence based independent evaluation of Pop is needed then this is not it.

I have been looking for consultation with local community. There isn't any. References are made to local perceptions of Pop but , this beggars belief, the consultants don't seem to have actually talked to any locals. You would only need to go around market on busy Saturdays to get local views.

Take this:



> Diversity of Users
> While data is not collected on user diversity, consultation has highlighted that Pop has succeeded
> in embedding itself within the local community, with the diversity of users now broadly reflecting the
> breadth of groups engaged and programming outlined above.



If they have no data how can these professionals make this claim? 

( To add the consultants appear to have narrow take on users of Pop. ie it's special events and business start ups. Diversity is more than that. It's also about who uses it as place to visit and enjoy. )


It's just the perception of the consultants.

It's no more valid than my opinion.

Which was never asked for by consultants. Despite me being on Future Brixton email list, member of Brixton Neighborhood Forum, member of Brixton Rec Users Group.

I'm going to try and read this report. But glancing through it incenses me.

The consultants, as the sections quoted by Teuchter point out, appear to say in early stages of setting it up local community should have been involved more.

I can't help feeling the lack of wider community consultation in making this report wasn't an accident.

I've seen the way Council officers use consultants in the LJ master plan. Basically these reports/ consultations are done with officers breathing down ones neck.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 23, 2018)

editor said:


> I can't imagine many of the stalls and businesses surrounding Pop Brixton benefited very much from their presence, particularly given the fact that most of the traffic to the place happens at night when it turns into The Biggest Pub In Brixton ©.



Page 15 of report:



> However, feedback from neighbouring traders was mixed, and concern has also been cited by
> the operator of the indoor markets regarding the impact Pop has had on its own food and
> drink traders.



Though the report follows this with saying more food and drink is good for Brixton economy. The report is relentlessly upbeat even when consultation comes up with findings like this. They can't stop themselves thinking up rationalisations why above feedback is wrong. Which is why the report is so irritating.


----------



## editor (Jan 23, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Started to have a look at this long report.
> 
> If evidence based independent evaluation of Pop is needed then this is not it.
> 
> ...


It's just bullshit from start to finish. Ask any long term local about the 'diversity' of Pop Brixton and I'd imagine they'd have a good laugh.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 23, 2018)

One of the things I noticed from the report. They do say people's perceptions were raised early on.That as the project got started and evolved there was a " communication gap" that led to "perceptions" that Pop didn't "reflect" Brixton.

They also say that one of the positive things was the strong working relationships that developed between officers and Turner's team in getting the project going.

This implies to me that the project moved from one that had a lot of encouragement of community involvement. Remember people were asked there views and a competition was held to choose a scheme. The Council encouraged this.

When it came down to starting the scheme it was totally top down. That's how I read the report saying a strong relationship developed between officers and Pop team. 

Myself I don't see that as healthy. The Council move from representing the people to being in effect joint managers of this scheme. Losing an objective distance from what after all is in theory a privately owned business.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 24, 2018)

Page 8 of the report. Section "Twenty lessons learnt through delivery".


> 6. Be pragmatic regarding scope for community involvement
> 
> Reflecting the council’s inclusive growth objectives, community buy-in was an important objective of the
> project. However, a balanced and pragmatic approach is needed in this respect. While Lambeth Council looked
> ...



The report misses the point here. It's saying what local people were concerned about was just disturbance like noise etc. It wasn't. This came later. Stakeholder groups ( not defined in the report) "raised expectations" weren't expectations. A competition was held. The winner was Grow Brixton. Reason. It looked the most community orientated entry.

The report skates over the Turner / EBS issue. It doesn't suggest , for example, that if Grow Brixton wasn't able to fulfill its objectives why the second choice in the competition did not get it.

As the "independent" consultants have looked at the whole project I would have liked more on what went wrong. The report gives impression just that Turner saved the project by "rescoping" it. A somewhat unusual word for changing the project.

A lesson to be learnt is that if a competition is held the winner should be kept to the plan. Or it goes to the next in line.

On "managing expectations". People like me who have long experience of Council consultations are wary now when taking part. ( See LJ master plan). Officers really hate this. Particularly when you might influence others.

Reading between the lines here. This section of the report is damning. People were mislead by the Council.

As the report says the Council " raised expectations regarding scope for community involvement"

Instead of increasing community trust in the local authority it did the opposite.


----------



## editor (Jan 25, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Reading between the lines here. This section of the report is damning. People were mislead by the Council.
> 
> As the report says the Council " raised expectations regarding scope for community involvement"
> 
> Instead of increasing community trust in the local authority it did the opposite.


That's what me and you (and others) have said along. We were promised some sort of community focused initiative and instead got a multi-national trainer firm 'taking over the venue,' posh nibbles and bubbles and a cheap rent for a fucking Property Guardian company. Does the report make any mention of why the hideous capitalist property developers The Collective were welcomed on board?


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## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2018)

editor said:


> That's what me and you (and others) have said along. We were promised some sort of community focused initiative and instead got a multi-national trainer firm 'taking over the venue,' posh nibbles and bubbles and a cheap rent for a fucking Property Guardian company. Does the report make any mention of why the hideous capitalist property developers The Collective were welcomed on board?



So far in my reading of this report how the Collective got on board hasn't been explained. So don't know if it was Turner or Lambeth officers.

What I find interesting and isn't fully described in report is how the local authority stepped in to save the scheme. Grow won scheme then it all went tits up.

The Nu Labour Council are ideologically wedded to seeing entrepreneurship as good. The state/ local authority being an enabler rather then provider.

I t looks to me that the relevant officers and Cllrs ( Jack Hopkins) pulled out all the stops to get the scheme off the ground. The report can be read as how state intervention works. ( Lambeth being the local state).

Reading the report looks to me that a lot of officer hours were spent in getting this scheme working in practice. Makes me think that there should be estimated value of Council contribution to this scheme in terms of man hours ( officer time). If that was done it might show how much Turner scheme has been in effect subsidised by the local state. ( Man hours plus rent free site)

If I was Council Officer I might be miffed that Turner has got all the credit. That he's now looking at big status building scheme in Peckham. For him and his mates.

In a fair world Lambeth Council should be getting a profit share from Turner's Peckham scheme.

( Of course the cost of management will be set to reduce any profit share. Something Turner has learnt from Pop.)


----------



## Lucy Fur (Jan 25, 2018)

^liked for your investigative work rather than the actual content, obvs


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## editor (Jan 25, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> So far in my reading of this report how the Collective got on board hasn't been explained. So don't know if it was Turner or Lambeth officers.


How can Lambeth unilaterally bring on a bunch of arch-capitalist Shoreditch property developers and never even bother to mention anything about them? Even running with the revisionist '_business park for local entrepreneurs_' bullshit, they're anything but local and anything but a start up. 



Gramsci said:


> In a fair world Lambeth Council should be getting a profit share from Turner's Peckham scheme.


Given their track record, I'm not so sure that the Peckham scheme is going to be a success.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Jan 25, 2018)

But Pop Brixton IS a success.

Listen and laugh.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> But Pop Brixton IS a success.
> 
> Listen and laugh.



Interesting that James says that this corner of Brixton was a "problematic area" before arrival of Pop.

From what Ive been hearing the opposite is the case. This was a relatively quiet bit of Brixton. I always saw it that way myself.

It becoming a "problematic area" is down to arrival of Pop/ the Beach ( now going) and Network Rail eviction of shops.

As someone said to me of the recent drug problems in Brixton Station road is that there is a demand there now. Pop and the Beach. Which wasn't there before.

A good example of entrepreneurship.

Sleepless in Brixton have also said Pop is a problem.


----------



## editor (Jan 25, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Interesting that James says that this corner of Brixton was a "problematic area" before arrival of Pop..


This really pisses me off.

There used to be the Canterbury Arms on the corner which rarely, if ever, caused any bother to anyone. There used to be lots of independent shops in the arches. 

There was a widely used car park and then a popular ice skating rink. There was nothing 'troublesome' about that part of town, so he can fuck off with his revisionist 'look how we made Brixton better' bullshit and lies.

He's selectively trading off Brixton's past reputation to make shitty Pop Brixton look like it's been a positive contribution to the local community. The twat.


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## Gramsci (Jan 25, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> But Pop Brixton IS a success.
> 
> Listen and laugh.



" Everyone wants to be an entrepreneur" according to James. Castaing had this "amazing vision". It was all Tom Bridgman's idea of meanwhile space.

Had me reaching for the sick bag.


----------



## editor (Jan 29, 2018)

How anyone can defend Pop Brixton after the deeply disturbing revelations in this excellent article sure beats me. The whole thing is a fucking farce. 



> Makeshift is a company that came out of the original management team at Pop Brixton. It is also involved in the running of the recently opened Peckham Levels. The lastest set of accounts for Makeshift show that it made a loss of £198,000 [pdf].
> 
> Carl Turner – _the businessman behind the ‘business park for the 21st Century’_ – has a 12.5% ownership of Makeshift. The remaining 87.5% is owned by The Collective. This is a Mayfair based property business who like to target “_ambitious young professionals_.”
> 
> ...



Lambeth Council props up loss making Pop Brixton with two year lease extension to pay off private debts


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## teuchter (Jan 29, 2018)

The latest Buzz article is a bit better than the previous one.

I hope Emblematic Yellow Dungarees Man gets paid commission by Brixton Buzz each time his photo appears.


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## snowy_again (Jan 29, 2018)

There's dead links in Jason's article (the ones linking to accounts which are hosted on an amazon.com domain).


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## editor (Jan 29, 2018)

It's a shame that no one else can be arsed to cover - or research - this story and so Lambeth residents are reliant on a non profit blog and people's audit to unearth what is really important information about their council's dodgy antics.


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## Lizzy Mac (Jan 29, 2018)

teuchter said:


> The latest Buzz article is a bit better than the previous one.
> 
> I hope Emblematic Yellow Dungarees Man gets paid commission by Brixton Buzz each time his photo appears.


Would a quick Google and a link from moneysavingexpert.com do?


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## Gramsci (Jan 29, 2018)

editor said:


> It's a shame that no one else can be arsed to cover - or research - this story and so Lambeth residents are reliant on a non profit blog and people's audit to unearth what is really important information about their council's dodgy antics.



Read Jason article. It's good that local media outlet covers the other side of this,

I know a lot of people, who don't post here, who read Brixton Buzz.

In Loughborough junction people on the estate read Buzz. I know because they mention it to me.


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## Gramsci (Jan 29, 2018)

So lets get this straight. Turner and Collective, on the back of Pop, are moving onto bigger things in Peckham, looks unlikely that Lambeth Council will get a serious profit share from Pop and supporters of Pop here are happy with that?


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 29, 2018)

editor said:


> How anyone can defend Pop Brixton after the deeply disturbing revelations in this excellent article sure beats me. The whole thing is a fucking farce.
> 
> 
> 
> Lambeth Council props up loss making Pop Brixton with two year lease extension to pay off private debts



Ive been continuing to read the consultants report on Pop.

It's clear that Pop would have been financially unviable if it hadn't got the lease extension. Makeshift would survive due the to backing of hip property developers The Collective as they have Peckham levels now.

Yet the Council report keeps repeating that Pop has a "commercially sustainable model". I just don't see it. And that's not because I dislike Pop. It's just the facts as Jason writes in the article shows its yet to prove itself as a sustainable model.

Reading the consultants report it shows how the local authority has had to step in to keep Pop afloat.

Early on in report it says there have been two steering groups to run Pop. The first a " Council focused steering group". Grow/ Pop almost ran aground at the start. The report implies that it was Council who really got Pop on a more stable basis. Then "entrepreneurism" came into play. ( See page 13 point 18 of report).


----------



## editor (Jan 30, 2018)

And it's the same story of huge losses and council delusion at Croydon's Boxpark...  



> Boxpark Croydon made a loss of nearly £500,000 last year, according to accounts filed to Companies House.
> 
> The operation, renting space to independent outlets selling street food and staging music and other events in a collection of disused shipping containers next to East Croydon Station, opened in October 2016 thanks to a chunky loan from Croydon Council of £3million, plus another £180,000 grant of public cash towards its launch party.
> 
> Last week, Tony Newman, the leader of Croydon Council, during a council cabinet meeting presentation, referred to Boxpark as a “successful investment” by the council.



‘Successful investment’ Boxpark reports a £500,000 loss


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## teuchter (Jan 30, 2018)

> The community made a bid for the space with genuine grassroot led plans for shared spaces. Lambeth gave it to dodgy entrepreneurs behind the current incarnation, with 'community' just a buzzword in their proposal. They kicked out the guy who created the 'community' aspect anyway. *And now it turns out the the local people are paying for it all.* Do you want to pay for private business who are given public land at huge discount and then not see any return from their profit? Shiny slick looking space doesn't mean it's well run or providing any actual service of value. If I find the link about their background, I'll post it.



The above is a post on facebook from someone who's obviously been reading the Buzz articles.

They seem to be under the impression that public money is paying for "it all".


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 30, 2018)

teuchter said:


> The above is a post on facebook from someone who's obviously been reading the Buzz articles.
> 
> They seem to be under the impression that public money is paying for "it all".



In which case that person on Facebook has not been reading Brixton Buzz properly.


> “The loan has been repaid in full by Pop Brixton.”



From:


Lambeth Council props up loss making Pop Brixton with two year lease extension to pay off private debts


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## Gramsci (Jan 30, 2018)

From what I remember of this thread the argument was that posters like me didn't understand business.

Even if Edible Bus Stop had stayed involved inevitably it would have had to be more commercial than some of us ( who don't understand business) imagined.

That the profit share would come online quickly to prove posters like me wrong.

Well it's not happened. 

Nor is it commercial success.


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## teuchter (Jan 30, 2018)

What you have quoted, Gramsci, is the buzz article quoting a Lambeth FOI response. The article's overarching message/narrative/emphasis is by no means "pop has paid back everything it owes to the public purse". It is a bit better than the previous one but still presents information in a confusing way. I'm not surprised people read it and come away with the impression the facebook poster has.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 30, 2018)

teuchter said:


> What you have quoted, Gramsci, is the buzz article quoting a Lambeth FOI response. The article's overarching message/narrative/emphasis is by no means "pop has paid back everything it owes to the public purse". It is a bit better than the previous one but still presents information in a confusing way. I'm not surprised people read it and come away with the impression the facebook poster has.



It's perfectly clear to me and I'm just an average Joe.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 30, 2018)

teuchter said:


> What you have quoted, Gramsci, is the buzz article quoting a Lambeth FOI response. The article's overarching message/narrative/emphasis is by no means "pop has paid back everything it owes to the public purse". It is a bit better than the previous one but still presents information in a confusing way. I'm not surprised people read it and come away with the impression the facebook poster has.



Also the Council has its own communications section. Who are paid to put out news of what the Council is doing. Ie Love Lambeth. The internet section of the Council news.


Love Lambeth

Up against the paid Council officers who put out news of what the Council are doing are the unpaid writers of Brixton Buzz. The Ed snd Tricky Skills.

If the Council can't get it's message across with its paid staff then it needs to look at how it's communicating to local people.

Something incidentally the consultants of the Pop report bring up. Better communication would have improved the perception of Pop.

So I would not blame Brixton Buzz for this.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 30, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> It's perfectly clear to me and I'm just an average Joe.


You're hardly an average Joe! And I mean that as a compliment.

This is the opening paragraph of the buzz article:


> Lambeth Council has confirmed that the two year lease extension for the loss making Pop Brixton has been granted to help the company pay back loans to private investors – _and not Lambeth Council_.



The last bit in italics - what do you take the intended meaning to be?
(a) The lease has been granted to allow Pop to pay back money owed to private sources, whilst not requiring it to also pay back money owed to Lambeth Council
(b) The lease has been granted to allow Pop to pay back money owed to private sources, even though the lease extension is not necessary to help it pay back money to Lambeth Council

To me it's ambiguous, and I wouldn't be surprised by anyone going with (a). 

You or I might then carefully read and re-read the following text, including the various links to FOI responses and so on, and come to the conclusion that Pop probably does not in fact owe any money to Lambeth Council. Most people wouldn't. Later in the article it's simply stated that



> Lambeth Council loaned Pop Brixton £92,000 in 2015. This was to cover an increase in construction costs to build the Impact Hub work space.



But then it's not stated that this loan has been paid back. You have to click on the FOI link earlier in the article to find that out, where it's referred to as two separate amounts of 40 and 52k.

All this is interspersed with a scattergun collection of figures relating to the losses of a company that is not, as far as I can see, involved in running pop Brixton, and details of selected portions of the amounts it owes private entities. Then we are given a figure of last year's loss, and its net liability. No attempt to explain what the latter means. 

I'd not be surprised if most readers of this article give up on trying to understand what all the numbers actually mean, and which ones are relevant.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 30, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> From what I remember of this thread the argument was that posters like me didn't understand business.
> 
> Even if Edible Bus Stop had stayed involved inevitably it would have had to be more commercial than some of us ( who don't understand business) imagined.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure anyone predicted that the profit share was going to quickly come online. I think there's been some scepticism from all sides from the beginning about how much it would end up being.

Do you reckon, with EBS still involved, it would now have generated the profit share the original proposal promised?


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 30, 2018)

teuchter said:


> You're hardly an average Joe! And I mean that as a compliment.
> 
> This is the opening paragraph of the buzz article:
> 
> ...



I've had another read and it looks clear to me.

If the company your refering to is Makeshift then from there website they have three projects. One of which is Pop.

Our Projects

Another thing is that Pop isn't liked in some quarters. Which isn't all down to Buzz.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 30, 2018)

teuchter said:


> I'm not sure anyone predicted that the profit share was going to quickly come online. I think there's been some scepticism from all sides from the beginning about how much it would end up being.
> 
> Do you reckon, with EBS still involved, it would now have generated the profit share the original proposal promised?



I haven't trawled all through the old posts but definitely my impression was that profit share was predicted to come online in first years or so.

My verdict of Pop. I've said this before. And now I'm more sure. If Pop was inevitably to become more commercial then the Council should have just leased the land to a commercial operator at market rent. Then used the income in the area.

Pop experiment of mixing commercialism with social good hasnt worked.

It's also caused resentment. Which the Council haven't been able to deal with. It's an experimental project that's divided the local community. In that sense it's failed.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 31, 2018)

You've answered neither of my questions, but fair enough.


----------



## editor (Jan 31, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I haven't trawled all through the old posts but definitely my impression was that profit share was predicted to come online in first years or so.
> 
> My verdict of Pop. I've said this before. And now I'm more sure. If Pop was inevitably to become more commercial then the Council should have just leased the land to a commercial operator at market rent. Then used the income in the area.
> 
> ...


Here's the crock of shit from their website. Where they promise a 50/50 share of the totally non existent profits.



> Lambeth Council kick-started the project, running a competition to submit ideas on what to do with a plot of disused land that now forms the site of Pop Brixton.
> 
> Lambeth Council has also provided the land for the project, until at least October 2017, free of charge. This is subject to the project delivering local benefits to the community.
> 
> ...



The line about the land being free only if the project delivers  "local benefits to the community" is so gloriously vague as to be utterly meaningless. If they'd just rented the land to displaced arch traders it would have paid more money back (well anything is better than a big fat fuck all) and provided a tangible benefit to the existing community rather than gifting a load of NZ wine shifters, hipster food and drink outlets and property guardians a cheap base.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2018)

Quite phenomenal fluff piece from the Independent here. It's like an advertorial, completely  skipping over issues like the half million debt.  

The South London shipping containers showing councils a different way to do business


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## Gramsci (Feb 11, 2018)

editor said:


> Quite phenomenal fluff piece from the Independent here. It's like an advertorial, completely  skipping over issues like the half million debt.
> 
> The South London shipping containers showing councils a different way to do business



Yes it reads like Lambeth wrote the piece for the Independent.

Pop didn't get lease extended because it's "so successful". It's not making money. No mention of the profit share.

It is interesting that the reporters first perception of going to Pop is that it is a "makeshift food court". Not an urban oasis. 

The reason the Council aren't selling the land yet is that they are still working up plans for the area. There never was any intention of a quick sale.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 11, 2018)

editor said:


> Quite phenomenal fluff piece from the Independent here. It's like an advertorial, completely  skipping over issues like the half million debt.
> 
> The South London shipping containers showing councils a different way to do business



The article makes a lot of the community investment scheme. Using it in the headline for the article. I'm sure the consultants report has reservations about how well this has worked.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Feb 12, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> it's failed.



Thread ends.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2018)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Thread ends.


But, sadly, Pop Brixton lives on.


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## Nanker Phelge (Feb 12, 2018)

editor said:


> But, sadly, Pop Brixton lives on.



For now


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## Gramsci (Feb 12, 2018)

editor said:


> Quite phenomenal fluff piece from the Independent here. It's like an advertorial, completely  skipping over issues like the half million debt.
> 
> The South London shipping containers showing councils a different way to do business



I had a look at the journalist , Hazel Sheffield, who wrote this. I think she might be local. 

She's experienced journalist. Quite a big hitter from looking at her CV. Makes it all the more difficult to understand why she put her name to this propaganda piece for Lambeth Labour. Which is what it is. It's not so much about Pop as about how forward thinking the New Labour Council is. 

I thought she might be in Labour party but can't find anything.

She has got funding to look at local economy initiatives. 

Some of which look interesting. Link to that on her personal website.

Hazel Sheffield

 What's particularly annoying about New Labour/ Third Way is the way they will present themselves as anti bureaucracy bottom up Community led politics. See the same with now departed ex leader of Council Steve Reed on cooperatives

It all sounds good until one sees the practice. Its right wing. I've heard Nu Labour Cllrs exhorting residents to pull their socks up and run services. Raise funds and run services. Like it's a morally good thing. As Steve Reed said way back the Council becoming an "enabler" rather than a " provider" ( of handouts presumably).


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## teuchter (Feb 13, 2018)

People keep voting them back in though. I wonder what will happen come May.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I had a look at the journalist , Hazel Sheffield, who wrote this. I think she might be local.
> 
> She's experienced journalist. Quite a big hitter from looking at her CV. Makes it all the more difficult to understand why she put her name to this propaganda piece for Lambeth Labour. Which is what it is. It's not so much about Pop as about how forward thinking the New Labour Council is.


I politely tweeted her and asked if she'd seen the Buzz/Peoples' Audit pieces.


Gramsci said:


> It all sounds good until one sees the practice. Its right wing. I've heard Nu Labour Cllrs exhorting residents to pull their socks up and run services. Raise funds and run services. Like it's a morally good thing. As Steve Reed said way back the Council becoming an "enabler" rather than a " provider" ( of handouts presumably).


That's the same kind of thinking behind the nu-Labour love of entrepreneurs.  If you're struggling _then it's your fault because you're not entrepreneurial enough, etc etc. _


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 13, 2018)

editor said:


> I politely tweeted her and asked if she'd seen the Buzz/Peoples' Audit pieces.
> 
> That's the same kind of thinking behind the nu-Labour love of entrepreneurs.  If you're struggling _then it's your fault because you're not entrepreneurial enough, etc etc. _



Did you get any reply from her? Looking at her CV she is experienced enough journalist to look at other media sites like Brixton Buzz. The whole way the Independent article is written is like a rebuttal of the reading of the consultants report / lease extension posted here and in Brixton Buzz.

The Nu Labour philosophy was love of entrepreneurs and the City. According to Tony the society was based around an "aspirational" middle with a small minority above and below. A super rich and what he called "hard to reach" section of society. That is the working class was dying out.

This was all previous the economic crash. Though Tony Blair holds to it.

Leading lights from the Nu Labour days are now distancing themselves from the now toxic brand of the "Third Way". Heard Blunkett on radio last week denying he was ever Nu Labour.

The working class vote and the sections of the middle class ( those liberal minded types derided by people like Blunkett) never went away. They left the party but in Lambeth still vote Labour. Not Nu Labour but for the Labour party.

The independent piece is example of how post Nu Labour is trying to position itself as a progressive alternative. It looks good in national press. It's only if one has to live in Lambeth that one see its not.


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Did you get any reply from her? Looking at her CV she is experienced enough journalist to look at other media sites like Brixton Buzz. The whole way the Independent article is written is like a rebuttal of the reading of the consultants report / lease extension posted here and in Brixton Buzz.


No, not a peep. Or, indeed a tweet.


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## Gramsci (Feb 20, 2018)

Ploughing through the "independent" consultants report I'm yet again wondering how independent it ever was.

Take this from pages 64 and 65



> 5.28 Despite these overall positive findings from those interviewed during the research, it should be noted
> that satisfaction with Pop is not universal:
> • Outside of this piece of research, a number of businesses are known to have raised issues
> about the adverse impact of Pop on the town centre, and particularly at night linked to litter
> ...



As the consultants were aware of different views on Pop they should have gone out and researched them. It's pretty poor a wider sample wasn't used. 

On page 50 "local media platforms" critical of Pop are mentioned. Brixton Blog and Time Out are mentioned as examples of positive coverage. Urban75 and Brixton Buzz aren't mentioned.


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## Gramsci (Feb 20, 2018)

The information used by the consultants depends a lot on Pops own moniteering of its activities. So can hardly be seen to be independent or without bias.



> 5.3 The assessment of impact has been informed by a mix of information sources, including:
> • Review of Pop Brixton monitoring information which provides detailed information on
> the characteristics of tenants and the community investment scheme.



I notice a lot of the charts used and info is credited to Pop.


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## editor (Feb 21, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> On page 50 "local media platforms" critical of Pop are mentioned. Brixton Blog and Time Out are mentioned as examples of positive coverage. Urban75 and Brixton Buzz aren't mentioned.


Of course not. We're only the most popular Brixton news outlet and the most popular Brixton forum.


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## Gramsci (Feb 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Of course not. We're only the most popular Brixton news outlet and the most popular Brixton forum.



Reading the consultants report I got the feeling that the consultants wanted to do wider consultation. That they had looked at Urban/ Brixton Buzz etc.

They however had officers looking over there shoulder telling them that look Pop management have all this " moniteering" records. Why don't you cut and paste this in your report etc.

Given that this report had Council officers you going over it with a fine tooth comb it still comes out as critical. Btw the reason the report wasn't published immediately after it was written was that as a senior officer said at the Brixton Neighborhood Forum that officers were going over the report themselves before it went out to public domain. Mmm.


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## CH1 (Feb 28, 2018)

There seemed to be a bit of a flood earlier (4.30pm). Burst pipe presumably. Water cascading out from the Popes Road side and running down the gutter outside. Lambeth don't have much luck with their waterworks, what with Carlton Mansions and all. 
Wonder who'll pay to sort the Pop Brixton burst out? Is it down to the landlord, therefore more on the rates I wonder?


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## editor (Mar 29, 2018)

Doublespeak propaganda outside Pop.


----------



## editor (Apr 2, 2018)

Despite making a loss of £480,000 in the past year and receiving £100,000 in public grants and a £92,000 loan from Lambeth Council, it's nice to see that Pop Brixton still has the budget for back slapping adverts.


----------



## SpamMisery (Apr 7, 2018)

Free pickles and pickling lessons tomorrow!


----------



## teuchter (Apr 7, 2018)

I can't remember if Brixton Market CIC are in or out of favour. They run the station road market right? Are they linked to brixton BID?


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2018)

Here's that Alpine-themed restaurant that everyone in Brixton has been waiting for. 



> This April, street food favourites Raclette Brothers will be opening their first permanent site and a brand-new concept at Pop Brixton. Aptly named, Alpes will serve food and drink inspired by the Alps region. With thought behind each and every ingredient, co-founders Steve and Jamie have created a menu that pays homage to British and European suppliers combined, showcasing traditional dishes from the alpine region as well as some creative twists on the classics.
> 
> Alpes will be the first restaurant in London to serve raclette on a traditional machine with the front of house team scraping melted cheese at the table in front of customers. Fondues are made to share with a choice of traditional, blue cheese and British variations, and side dishes with unlimited refills of roast potatoes, fries, salad, pickles and baguette. The rest of the menu features delicious bar snacks and small plates alongside carefully selected charcuterie and cheese from an exclusive list of producers from the UK and across Europe.
> 
> ...


----------



## T & P (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks, that sounds rather interesting. Fondue FTW


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## SpamMisery (Apr 23, 2018)

Fondue is good. But nothing beats tartiflette up a mountain.


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## Gramsci (Apr 27, 2018)

I was at meeting about Brixton Station road today ( local community groups, shopkeepers, market traders, Brixton BID, local police, council officers) . Pop couldn't be arsed to send some one along.

Didn't help that Council officers did usual upbeat view of Pop.

There are serious problems with drug dealing/ drug use/ ASB. Shopkeepers pointed out that part of attraction of drug dealers was demand created by Pop.

Dead silence from Council officers on this.

However Community safety Council officers said one of the ways they had been trying to stop drug use/ dealing was by removing licence to have tables and chairs outside cafes.

Which just happened to be the black owned ones. Not Craft by Beehive place. 

After a lot of discussion, including from me who thought this was unfair, Council officers agreed to revisit the removal of licence. They will be discussing it internally.

It really left a bad taste in my mouth. If I hadn't brought it up it would have remained the same.

The black shopkeeper in question I know. He as he said at meeting, and police officer didn't deny this, been helping police. So as he said he had been doubly punished. Been in danger of being accused of being a po!ice informer and had the Council removing his tables and chairs licence.

When shopkeepers brought up Pop creating a demand for drugs officers stayed silent.

Says it all about how Council see Brixton.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 27, 2018)

To be fair one of the officers came up to me after meeting basically saying I was right.

I get impression that officers have script on Pop they are meant to keep to.

The long standing shopkeepers and market traders have low opinion of Pop.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I was at meeting about Brixton Station road today ( local community groups, shopkeepers, market traders, Brixton BID, local police, council officers) . Pop couldn't be arsed to send some one along.
> 
> Didn't help that Council officers did usual upbeat view of Pop.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this up. It's such a shame that it all seems to be swept under the carpet by officials and dismissed by posters here when it clearly is an important issue.

If you fancy expanding on it a bit, I'd be very happy to run it as a feature on Buzz.


----------



## ringo (Apr 27, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> There are serious problems with drug dealing/ drug use/ ASB. Shopkeepers pointed out that part of attraction of drug dealers was demand created by Pop.


Is there really a suggestion here that Pop created the demand for drug dealers? There have always been drug dealers around this area. What is the reasoning behind this theory? The Front Line was notorious 40 - 50 years ago.


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2018)

ringo said:


> Is there really a suggestion here that Pop created the demand for drug dealers? There have always been drug dealers around this area. What is the reasoning behind this theory? The Front Line was notorious 40 - 50 years ago.


It wouldn't surprise me given the influx of freespending, boozed up partygoers (which is Pop's main audience at night) and the growth of banging DJ nights inside the 'green oasis.'

Station Road was never an area noted for dealing but that was before it became Brixton's biggest pub.


----------



## ringo (Apr 27, 2018)

I can't see it. In the 70's it was called the Front Line for a reason, in the 80's the coke and crack dealers were infamous and we've had reports on here for years about Brixton being a drug buying destination.

The Front Line was on Railton Road, then it moved to Coldharbour Lane when that area calmed down a bit and went more residential. I can believe that the dealers might have moved just round the corner to follow the market again to some degree, but this isn't anything new.

I wonder if the crime stats show an increase in drug related offences over the last 40 years.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Apr 27, 2018)

Dealers have come and gone in waves since I've lived in Brixton. 

I can believe that that Pop has increased the market for street dealers of certain substances like coke and MDMA. Large groups of party kids, coming from other areas of London or abroad. When I was a party kid going to places like the Dogstar, someone always seemed to know someone to score off and it happened before people went out or dealers were called and met. 

The tube based skunk dealers of my early days in Brixton don't seem so prevalent. 

The early morning hours Brixton Hill crack dealers still seem to be in residence, I've seen an increase since the weather has improved recently, as I go to my early morning gym classes or go to work at ridiculous o'clock.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 27, 2018)

ringo said:


> Is there really a suggestion here that Pop created the demand for drug dealers? There have always been drug dealers around this area. What is the reasoning behind this theory? The Front Line was notorious 40 - 50 years ago.


More pertinently what's fundamentally the problem with drug use and drug dealers? Are we on urban75 or the daily telegraph comments section?


----------



## editor (Apr 27, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> Dealers have come and gone in waves since I've lived in Brixton.
> 
> I can believe that that Pop has increased the market for street dealers of certain substances like coke and MDMA.


Perhaps when Pop Brixton was being fluffed up as an opportunity for the local community, they meant the local drug dealers


----------



## ringo (Apr 27, 2018)

teuchter said:


> More pertinently what's fundamentally the problem with drug use and drug dealers? Are we on urban75 or the daily telegraph comments section?


The lack of capitalisation in your second sentence has had me spitting out my crack cocaine covered crunchy nut cornflakes, and if that isn't worthy of a strongly worded letter to the Telegraph I don't know what is.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Apr 27, 2018)

teuchter said:


> More pertinently what's fundamentally the problem with drug use and drug dealers? Are we on urban75 or the daily telegraph comments section?



I don't have a problem with drugs, think they should all be legalised. 

that said I struggle with the street crack dealers on Brixton Hill preying on desperate people and behaving violently towards them. 

Aware I may be being hypocritical!


----------



## Rushy (Apr 27, 2018)

Interesting that up until Feb this year Cllr Jack Hopkins was CEO of Night Time Industries Association NTIA.

On Jack's LinkedIn page he describes the NTIA as "the main trade body which supports, protects and enhances clubs, festivals, street food outlets and late-night entertainment... We are changing how the nighttime is seen by decision-makers, changing licensing, planning and regulatory policy at a local level and fighting for stronger and more cooperative relationships."

According to its website, the NTIA "seeks to influence the decisions of policymakers and ensure that the nighttime economy continues to flourish". One of their stated aims is to "challenge the unfair treatment and attitudes currently being imposed upon the nighttime industry."

More specifically the association "promotes clarity with regard to crime statistics and shines a light on vague terms such as "antisocial behavior" whilst reminding everyone that the nighttime industries is the UK's fifth-largest sector and an enormous success story."

*planning


----------



## Tricky Skills (Apr 27, 2018)

Jacko was also the Cabinet member who signed off the Event Lambeth parks strategy that paved the way for Field Day.

Fancy that.


----------



## newbie (Apr 28, 2018)

plumbing?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2018)

teuchter said:


> More pertinently what's fundamentally the problem with drug use and drug dealers? Are we on urban75 or the daily telegraph comments section?



This and past governments failed policies on drugs has led to situation where criminal elements are involved.

The problem isn't drugs. Its the fact that failed government policies means that its criminal activity. Like prohibition in USA criminalising drugs just causes other problems.

Its a joke for you and just another way to have a go at Urban it's not so funny for shopkeepers on Brixton station road who have to deal with dealing directly outside there shops. Most of whom are sole sole traders. Not big stores with security.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2018)

ringo said:


> Is there really a suggestion here that Pop created the demand for drug dealers? There have always been drug dealers around this area. What is the reasoning behind this theory? The Front Line was notorious 40 - 50 years ago.



I checked my post and it does say part of the attraction. Ie not the whole reason.

You are right drug dealing has always been around. Without going into detail my impression is that dealing on Brixton station road is ongoing issue. The perception of it for the remaining shopkeepers on Brixton station road has been that it has been made worse recently.

The blighting of the road because of Network rail closing down arches imo has made it worse. When all the arches were open it felt safer for shopkeepers. Now only a few shops are left they feel more vulnerable. This is my opinion from listening to them.

I personally think its a case of remaining shopkeepers worrying they are losing control of the space.

There is self policing. When all the shops and cafes were there no one would take the piss. If you see what I mean. A few people might smoke a spliff. But it was within bounds.

What got me was the removal of license for tables and chairs from the black owned business. It smacked of racist profiling to me. Black owned cafe. Well they hang outside. Causing drug dealing. It stands to reason.

Where as when Pop was mentioned no response from officers. Also Craft pub didn't get there tables and chairs license removed. That is full of nice white people.

I think a lot of this is about perception.

The sense I got was that Pop isn't seen as asset by existing shopkeepers. Pop couldn't be arsed to send someone to meeting or give apologies for absence.


----------



## Rushy (Apr 28, 2018)

newbie said:


> plumbing?


Productive tests.


----------



## editor (Apr 28, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I checked my post and it does say part of the attraction. Ie not the whole reason.
> 
> You are right drug dealing has always been around. Without going into detail my impression is that dealing on Brixton station road is ongoing issue. The perception of it for the remaining shopkeepers on Brixton station road has been that it has been made worse recently.
> 
> ...


Craft seems to have been gifted a vast swathe of Station Road and Beehive Place for their sprawling empire of tables and chairs catering to the 'right' sort of street drinker - despite some earlier concerns from certain posters regarding supposed health and safety issues/wheelchairs being able to get past etc.


----------



## ringo (Apr 30, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> You are right drug dealing has always been around. Without going into detail my impression is that dealing on Brixton station road is ongoing issue. The perception of it for the remaining shopkeepers on Brixton station road has been that it has been made worse recently.


Thanks for clarifying. I don't believe drug dealing is any more rife than it already was, but I can see that they woud have taken advantage of the closed down arches to move closer to their customers now that focus has in part shifted to Pop.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 30, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> This and past governments failed policies on drugs has led to situation where criminal elements are involved.
> 
> The problem isn't drugs. Its the fact that failed government policies means that its criminal activity. Like prohibition in USA criminalising drugs just causes other problems.
> 
> Its a joke for you and just another way to have a go at Urban it's not so funny for shopkeepers on Brixton station road who have to deal with dealing directly outside there shops. Most of whom are sole sole traders. Not big stores with security.



I agree it's government policy that's the problem. However its not unusual for the reality of issues on the ground to be over-hyped, and for drug use and dealing to be made out to be something more sinister and dangerous than it really is. Hence my reaction to your comment -



Gramsci said:


> There are serious problems with drug dealing/ drug use/ ASB.



which sounds like something you'd read in the telegraph. What exactly are the serious "drug use" and "ASB" problems? Drug use and therefore by necessity dealing have always been part of the scenery in Brixton, indeed it's inevitably part of the scenery anywhere with an active nightlife. If people don't want to see it happening in Brixton then Brixton needs to be sanitised as somewhere where people come for a nice dinner out and and not somewhere with late opening pubs and clubs.

Having said all of that, if small traders on station rd are starting to have more problems then I don't want to dismiss that and no, it's not a "joke". What kind of anti-social behaviour is going on? It's causing problems in the daytime?

Finally I totally agree with you that if some of the smaller traders have had pavement licences revoked on the basis of drug-related ASB, but not the Craft Beer place, then that doesn't sound right and you are right to question it. At the same time it's an alarmist response to drug "problems" that often leads to those kinds of measures being taken, that don't actually solve the issues and hit the wrong people.


----------



## Gramsci (May 1, 2018)

teuchter said:


> I agree it's government policy that's the problem. However its not unusual for the reality of issues on the ground to be over-hyped, and for drug use and dealing to be made out to be something more sinister and dangerous than it really is. Hence my reaction to your comment -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't really think my stance on drugs would go down well in the Daily Telegraph.

I also have a lot of knowledge of central Brixton due to living in it for many years and I personally know some shopkeepers and stall holders.

Nor do I think my concern of racial profiling in relation to licensing issues would find much sympathy with the average Telegraph reader.

Yes I'm fully aware that drug dealing is part of Brixton scenery. The street next to me was used by drug dealers. Selling crack to addicts at all times of day. I remember having to try to persuade the poor addicts not to tip our rubbish all over the pavement. When asked why they did it they said they were looking for stuff to sell for drugs or any food. They were very thin and wasted. I somehow don't think this is the experience of most Telegraph readers.

But as you say this was all just part of Brixton scenery. Adding colour that should not be sanitised out of Brixton.

My position once again is that all drugs should be decriminalised or legalised.

I don't have much to add what I posted up to Ringo in #7163

Living in central Brixton there are boundaries. If you deal or do drugs directly outside my house I am going to complain.

This is the case with the shopkeepers. Ive seen it myself. It also affected the Rec. I've seen the ramp entrance being used. It was crossing the unwritten boundary and becoming a problem.

My position was and is that this should be treated as a policing problem. Oh and as I used to live in central Brixton a long tradition has been police moving on the drug problem to somewhere else. In response to complaints.

I don't think it's Telegraph like to see that shopkeepers don't want this going on directly outside there shops. Its starting in afternoons. That's when I see it. If it was just night time it would not be a problem so much. Its with NR evictions and Pop that shopkeepers have been starting to complain. Not before.

I say a policing problem as what's happened is this. Police don't have resources to deal with it. They said so.So it ends up with Council deciding to "design out crime" as officer said. I have real problems with this. It is how it could end up being sanitised. Let's remove all seating ( but not from the nice new places) to discourage the wrong sort of people to hang out. Police action on drug dealing problems isn't new. Using planning and licensing is newish. And it's a blunt instrument.


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## SpamMisery (May 5, 2018)

Pop looking resplendent in today's sunshine


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## editor (May 5, 2018)

Pop seem to be going for a full on PR onslaught, complete with a Stainist-esque 'reimagining' of their history. Grow Brixton has been erased from history!


----------



## Jonti (May 5, 2018)

teuchter said:


> I can't remember if Brixton Market CIC are in or out of favour. They run the station road market right? Are they linked to brixton BID?


Oh, very much in favour thanks. Except, of course, with the wrong sort 

There's no especial link with Brixton BID


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## aka (May 7, 2018)

ringo said:


> The lack of capitalisation in your second sentence has had me spitting out my crack cocaine covered crunchy nut cornflakes, and if that isn't worthy of a strongly worded letter to the Telegraph I don't know what is.


Teutcher's so old he uses an actual telegraph, daily.


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## Jonti (May 9, 2018)

Jonti said:


> There's no especial link with Brixton BID



Just to expand on this, in Brixton all payers of commercial rates are automatically members of the Brixton BID, by way of a levy on the business rates they pay.  The BMTF CIC doesn't have any commercial property, but has been made a member anyway, to represent street traders.  Stuart the Watchman is a member of both boards.


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## editor (May 9, 2018)

An interesting snippet about the business interests of theoffshore-registered Kricket who were given space at Pop Brixton. You know, the place for local start ups.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2018)

The whole thing is an embarrassment.  Massive losses and no money paid back to the council despite being gifted the land for fuck all.  


> The company behind the loss-making Pop Brixton has posted an annual loss of £423,000 with the latest set of accounts filed at Companies House.
> 
> Makeshift lost £422,786 in the previous financial year. It now has liabilities of £621,140. The company came out of the original management team at Pop Brixton. It is also involved in the running of the recently opened Peckham Levels.
> 
> Makeshift is deemed to be a going concern by virtue of the fact that it has the backing of a major investor in The Collective. This is part owned by Mohammad Merchant, who is also the majority stakeholder in Makeshift, and a shareholder in Pop Brixton.


----------



## editor (May 16, 2018)

And here's the multi-million pound property empire bloke behind The Collective. Spawned from a super rich background and educated at the Merchant Taylors private school, he's currently looking to “assess investor appetite and prove out the strength of the investment market for this emerging asset class”.

Previous connections with Brixton = zero.

The Fabulous Life Of Reza Merchant - CEO at The Collective – DealMakerz


----------



## aka (May 18, 2018)

editor said:


> The whole thing is an embarrassment.  Massive losses and no money paid back to the council despite being gifted the land for fuck all.


On the flip side, the council have invested (risked) fuck all - bar reputation, opportunity cost of not using the space for other stuff etc.  I reckon someone is going to take a bath on this project, and there will be much hand wringing and bullshit negotiations come 2020 as the investors try to get some cash back out.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 18, 2018)

I'm not making allegations, but it seems very odd to me they can' t make money when they got the land basically free. One wonders if a company in a profit-sharing deal where they didn't want to share profits might make a successful company look loss-making using sub-contracting and accounting methods.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm not making allegations, but it seems very odd to me they can' t make money when they got the land basically free. One wonders if a company in a profit-sharing deal where they didn't want to share profits might make a successful company look loss-making using sub-contracting and accounting methods.


Quite how they managed to blow nearly TWO MILLION quid setting up a pile of tatty old containers on free land is something worth looking closer at. It was miles over their original estimate, so what happened? Incompetence? Dodginess?


----------



## teuchter (May 18, 2018)

aka said:


> On the flip side, the council have invested (risked) fuck all - bar reputation, opportunity cost of not using the space for other stuff etc.  I reckon someone is going to take a bath on this project, and there will be much hand wringing and bullshit negotiations come 2020 as the investors try to get some cash back out.


The reporting in any case on their financial situation has been rather muddled and I don't think actually accurately presents the reality. I wonder if we'll ever get a clear picture of how the numbers work out at the end.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 18, 2018)

editor said:


> Quite how they managed to blow nearly TWO MILLION quid setting up a pile of tatty old containers on free land is something worth looking closer at. It was miles over their original estimate, so what happened? Incompetence? Dodginess?


I don't know, but it seems to me it would be very easy, for instance, for the director of the company to contract out the design and development process to a company owned by, say, their partner, which then massively overcharges. As far as I know there's nothing even illegal about that sort of thing - though happy to be corrected if others know differently.


----------



## Gramsci (May 18, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm not making allegations, but it seems very odd to me they can' t make money when they got the land basically free. One wonders if a company in a profit-sharing deal where they didn't want to share profits might make a successful company look loss-making using sub-contracting and accounting methods.



A fair number of Capitalist business go on for years at a loss. So Turner isn't that exceptional. Capitalism isn't about morality. My argument is with the New Labour/ Progress Council.

These New Labour types have very naïve view of Capitalism. They really believed that Turner would fall over himself to give Lambeth Council a whacking great profit share. It's not  how it works.

The main fault is the Council who ideologically believe enterprise ( and Nu Labour share this with Thatcherites) is a good thing in itself.

Pop is example of how they see the "enabling" Coop Council. Enabling Turner to end up with Peckham levels. His business solid base due to the active support of Council.

Contrast this with the group of volunteers trying to re open Grove Adventure Playground. Volunteers who won't be remunerated. Much Council officer dragging of feet.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> A fair number of Capitalist business go on for years at a loss.


They do, but not many are gifted a large chunk of juicy prime land for fuck all with the supposed strict understanding that it was only going to be around for  a few years. So the cloth should have been cut accordingly. Blowing nearly £2m on a temporary site and then paying themselves millions in admin costs is unforgivable.

They've taken us all for mugs and there should be an independent investigation into who's been trousering the lolly.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2018)

editor said:


> They do, but not many are gifted a large chunk of juicy prime land for fuck all with the supposed strict understanding that it was only going to be around for  a few years. So the cloth should have been cut accordingly. Blowing nearly £2m on a temporary site and then paying themselves millions in admin costs is unforgivable.
> 
> They've taken us all for mugs and there should be an independent investigation into who's been trousering the lolly.



I was trying to look at the bigger picture.

On Pop. At recent meeting I attended local businessman asked what Pop paid for site. As he just assumed this temporary use was bringing in income for the Council. The officers looked at the floor so I had to explain that it was a profit share but Pop didn't make a profit. Businessman looked incredulous that Council had done a deal like that.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2018)

On another note. Council have decided to keep International House. ( The red brick building behind Rec) for five years whilst they work up plans for the land they own in central Brixton.

Council are going to look for a provider/ business to manage the building. Idea is for affordable workspace.

Ive heard that Meanwhile Space who also operate in LJ arches have expressed interest. I don't know if Turners outfit have. 

Hopefully Council will learn from mistakes of Pop project.

Looking even further into future I am concerned about what will happen to this large Council owned site in future.

Its Pop site, International House, Brixton Rec and market traders car park off Brixton Station road.

Whilst Rec is Grade two listed this isn't total protection. 

There is still danger Regen officers may look at whole site as a redevelopment opportunity.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> On another note. Council have decided to keep International House. ( The red brick building behind Rec) for five years whilst they work up plans for the land they own in central Brixton.
> 
> Council are going to look for a provider/ business to manage the building. Idea is for affordable workspace.
> 
> ...


One for Tricky Skills !


----------



## Tricky Skills (May 19, 2018)

*cough* we're already on it


----------



## alex_ (May 19, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I was trying to look at the bigger picture.
> 
> On Pop. At recent meeting I attended local businessman asked what Pop paid for site. As he just assumed this temporary use was bringing in income for the Council. The officers looked at the floor so I had to explain that it was a profit share but Pop didn't make a profit. Businessman looked incredulous that Council had done a deal like that.



I assume pop is all about time softening up people so that most people forget that they’ve knocked down an ice rink and then sold the site to lexadon.

Alex


----------



## aka (May 19, 2018)

alex_ said:


> I assume pop is all about time softening up people so that most people forget that they’ve knocked down an ice rink and then sold the site to lexadon.
> 
> Alex


Tesco (via the council) put (paid for) a temporary ice rink on a car park as a sop for the massive redevelopment in Streatham, whilst the ice rink in Streatham got re-built.


----------



## aka (May 19, 2018)

editor said:


> Quite how they managed to blow nearly TWO MILLION quid setting up a pile of tatty old containers on free land is something worth looking closer at. It was miles over their original estimate, so what happened? Incompetence? Dodginess?


Inexperience mostly.  If you've not done a thing before, then there is a high % chance of fucking stuff up - which costs money.


----------



## editor (May 19, 2018)

aka said:


> Inexperience mostly.  If you've not done a thing before, then there is a high % chance of fucking stuff up - which costs money.


Then the council should never have awarded them the contract or invited ruthless capitalists The Collective to get involved. Funnily enough, The Collective seem to be absolutely raking it in everywhere else...


----------



## alex_ (May 19, 2018)

editor said:


> Then the council should never have awarded them the contract or invited ruthless capitalists The Collective to get involved. Funnily enough, The Collective seem to be absolutely raking it in everywhere else...



No one knows they are inexperienced - it’s normally bitter experience which teaches you.

Alex


----------



## editor (May 19, 2018)

alex_ said:


> No one knows they are inexperienced - it’s normally bitter experience which teaches you.
> 
> Alex


Not sure why local taxpayers should be funding these risky ventures.


----------



## alex_ (May 20, 2018)

editor said:


> Not sure why local taxpayers should be funding these risky ventures.



So the council should sell the land to experienced people like lexadon ?

The council has some land and needs money what should they do with it ?

Alex


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 20, 2018)

alex_ said:


> So the council should sell the land to experienced people like lexadon ?
> 
> The council has some land and needs money what should they do with it ?
> 
> Alex



Perhaps a preferential profits deal? The first - however much - of the profits go to Lambeth before management can draw
Anything down. They are getting the land for
free so a massive part of their start up risk is being covered by the council.


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 20, 2018)

And an upfront agreed transparent procurement process for any payments over a certain level


----------



## alex_ (May 20, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> Perhaps a preferential profits deal? The first - however much - of the profits go to Lambeth before management can draw
> Anything down. They are getting the land for
> free so a massive part of their start up risk is being covered by the council.



But there aren’t any profits, because “management costs” ( aka Hollywood accounting ).

Alex


----------



## shakespearegirl (May 20, 2018)

Sorry that should read an agree ./. Of takings are dispersed to the council as a priority before any ‘management costs’.  Not an impossible model to manage


----------



## alex_ (May 20, 2018)

shakespearegirl said:


> Sorry that should read an agree ./. Of takings are dispersed to the council as a priority before any ‘management costs’.  Not an impossible model to manage



Aka revenue share.

Alex


----------



## editor (May 21, 2018)

alex_ said:


> So the council should sell the land to experienced people like lexadon ?
> 
> The council has some land and needs money what should they do with it ?


Do you even understand the concept of a 'meanwhile' space?


----------



## editor (May 21, 2018)

alex_ said:


> So the council should sell the land to experienced people like lexadon ?


They got The Collective onboard who appear to be very successful in raking in millions. But not at Pop Brixton, curiously enough.


----------



## alex_ (May 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Do you even understand the concept of a 'meanwhile' space?



No, but apparently neither do Lambeth or pop.

Unless it means, “look at our edible bus stop, meanwhile we siphon off a load of cash in management charges”

Alex


----------



## editor (May 21, 2018)

alex_ said:


> No, but apparently neither do Lambeth or pop.
> 
> Unless it means, “look at our edible bus stop, meanwhile we siphon off a load of cash in management charges”
> 
> Alex


Exactly how would the Edible Bus Stop have 'siphoned' off money?


----------



## Gramsci (May 21, 2018)

alex_ said:


> So the council should sell the land to experienced people like lexadon ?
> 
> The council has some land and needs money what should they do with it ?
> 
> Alex



Rent it out on commercial basis for a few years. Then invest that money in local area.


----------



## editor (May 21, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Rent it out on commercial basis for a few years. Then invest that money in local area.


They could have given the land over to local market traders - like the ones who had been kicked out of the arches. Even though they're not the on-trend, entrepreneurial kind that Lambeth loves - or have the backing of Mayfair property developers - it would have taken _real skill_ for them to post immense losses over a long, rent free period.


----------



## Gramsci (May 21, 2018)

What should have happened is that when Pop lease was running out the Council should have gone out and consulted locals on giving a new lease. What they like / dislike about Pop. What should be written into any new agreement between Pop and Council.

What actually happened was Council turning up to a Brixton Neighborhood forum to tell local community Council had given Pop a new lease. Didn't go down well


----------



## alex_ (May 22, 2018)

editor said:


> Exactly how would the Edible Bus Stop have 'siphoned' off money?



It wouldn’t have - apols sarcasm came across badly.

Alex


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> What should have happened is that when Pop lease was running out the Council should have gone out and consulted locals on giving a new lease. What they like / dislike about Pop. What should be written into any new agreement between Pop and Council.
> 
> What actually happened was Council turning up to a Brixton Neighborhood forum to tell local community Council had given Pop a new lease. Didn't go down well



Same old scene with Lambeth Council: give business a reach-around, but kick the local communities up the arse.


----------



## editor (Jun 9, 2018)

Excellent analysis of the dubious housing strategy of Pop's stinking rich co-owners, The Collective.



> Read together, the price, exclusivity, substandard size of bedrooms and cynical view of community have been rightly highlighted as criticisms of the building. The most alarming feature of The Collective Old Oak though isn’t the banality of its architecture, the vague claims of solving a housing shortage or the pessimistic idea of a narcissistic youth driven through the next networking opportunity. The most alarming feature is this “new way of living”, is in fact a commodified old way of living; one that is steeped in the language of modernism yet robbed of its radical social intent.
> 
> CEO of The Collective, Reza Merchant’s, claims of a youth being “far more willing to invest in experiences versus material possessions” or the building’s description as “a way of living focused on a genuine sense of community, using shared spaces and facilities to create a more convenient and fulfilling lifestyle” could easily be used to describe British inter-war experiments in modernism. In fact, the parallels between ‘The Collective Old Oak’ and inter-war modernist pioneer, Wells Coates ‘Isokon’ – or Lawn Road – in north London are striking.





> Seen in this historical context, The Collective Old Oak and wider co-living developments, mark a worrying shift where not only does neoliberal urbanism erode the last remnants of the welfare state – in the form of council housing sell offs and redevelopments – it further hijacks and monetizes the very ideas traditionally in resistance to unfettered development. And let’s be clear, The Collective LLP aren’t aligned with a wider movement of social reformers, they’re aligned with investors who want a return on capital. This return is clearly fruitful – The Collective LLP with PLP Architecture look set to gain planning permission for a larger self-contained development in East London, scaling up their “innovative form of rental accommodation” to 30 storeys. With it, an aptly regressive housing strategy sold as progressive continues.



The Collective is Not a New Way of Living – It’s an Old One, Commodified - Failed Architecture


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 10, 2018)

editor said:


> Excellent analysis of the dubious housing strategy of Pop's stinking rich co-owners, The Collective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not cheap, this new style living. Also, shared kitchens? Not a recipe for disaster at all...


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 11, 2018)

editor said:


> Excellent analysis of the dubious housing strategy of Pop's stinking rich co-owners, The Collective.
> 
> 
> 
> The Collective is Not a New Way of Living – It’s an Old One, Commodified - Failed Architecture



Interesting article.

On the post war " welfare state" architecture:



> Underlying this was a social agenda that held civic value above monetary motives; a belief that a decent standard of life should be available to all through healthcare, housing and work reforms; that all this could be achieved through planning the future.



Very much the ethos behind the design of the Brixton Rec. A reason why it got listed. It really should not take being listed to get the social agenda in the quote above (partially) protected.

Ive been at meetings about the Rec overlooking Pop. Thinking I don't want the Rec to end up like Pop.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 11, 2018)

editor said:


> Excellent analysis of the dubious housing strategy of Pop's stinking rich co-owners, The Collective.
> 
> 
> 
> The Collective is Not a New Way of Living – It’s an Old One, Commodified - Failed Architecture



Another thing. On sharing facilities as a good thing. Like it's new great idea.

I did this in 70s Plymouth. Most flats didn't have bathrooms. So we used the wash house at end the road. Which was Council run. And from what I remember good and clean.

I've mixed feelings on "communal facilities". In Plymouth the new Council housing with facilities in each flat was seen at time as step forward.

Chatting to my brother today. Like he said there were three flats in our house, in 70s in Plymouth, and we shared one toliet. Like he said that wasn't unusual then.

I got a new washing machine before Christmas. Cheaper and more convenient than Loughborough junction launderette. But I miss the chats I had in Launderette. And being in touch with the cross section of people who live in LJ.

So yes having all "mod cons" is improvement. But there is loss of collective life.

I do think however it's not something that should be returned to.

The Collective "communal" living isn't really progressive. People are paying a lot for a glorified bedsit.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 12, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Another thing. On sharing facilities as a good thing. Like it's new great idea.
> 
> I did this in 70s Plymouth. Most flats didn't have bathrooms. So we used the wash house at end the road. Which was Council run. And from what I remember good and clean.
> 
> ...


Ii had a look at the Collective's website to see what they offered - two options, either a studio or an ensuite room, both of which have access to kitchen, living space etc. 

The studio was more expensive (£290 pw vs £245 iirc) but I couldn't actually work out what you got for that. Other than a slimline bank account.


----------



## Tricky Skills (Aug 8, 2018)

They may be a loss-making project, propped up by wealthy backers and a supine Council, but Pop is half decent at spinning some PR crap to some very, very gullible websites.


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2018)

Tricky Skills said:


> They may be a loss-making project, propped up by wealthy backers and a supine Council, but Pop is half decent at spinning some PR crap to some very, very gullible websites.


"Now boasting a two-year extension" - wow that's some magnificent spin.


----------



## SpamMisery (Aug 9, 2018)

Beer festival's just kicked off; runs until 2345 tomorrow. Free entry and free beer tasting. Winner.


----------



## alcopop (Aug 9, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Beer festival's just kicked off; runs until 2345 tomorrow. Free entry and free beer tasting. Winner.



I can’t see how anyone could complain about that!


----------



## T & P (Aug 9, 2018)

alcopop said:


> I can’t see how anyone could complain about that!


----------



## editor (Aug 9, 2018)

T & P said:


>


----------



## editor (Aug 27, 2018)




----------



## aka (Aug 27, 2018)

Imagine reading that if you didn’t know who League of Gentlemen are?


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2018)

aka said:


> Imagine reading that if you didn’t know who League of Gentlemen are?


Oh, please do tell us all here what this imaginary person who has never heard of the League of Gentlemen would think. I'm sure it's going to be something quite amazing. 

Any comment on the claim that a "bumper harvest" was grown at Pop Brixton "by local people for local people"? Were they handing out the immense harvest to people on the local estates perhaps?


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 5, 2018)

Free entry all dayer on Saturday hosted by local Brixton promoters No Long Ting. Reggae, dance hall, soul etc. Kicks off at midday. I've not heard of any of the DJs but looks alright for a last of summer sun weekend






Oh


----------



## Tricky Skills (Sep 6, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Free entry all dayer on Saturday hosted by local Brixton promoters No Long Ting.



You mean you normally have to pay to enter the bloody place these days?


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 6, 2018)

Nope


----------



## SpamMisery (Sep 13, 2018)

Brixton Design Trail: A Film Night

Free event kicks off at 1900 tonight.

Young filmmakers present their latest projects. Opportunity for the audience (and industry professionals) to provide feedback. Audience feedback? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.


----------



## editor (Oct 7, 2018)

So it's literally going to become Brixton's biggest pub next weekend. Another great 'community' use for the rent-free space! And let's hope their toilets can cope with all the mass alcohol feasting and meaty chomping.  






Brixtoberfest promises a ‘Bavarian Beer Hall celebration’ in Pop Brixton, 12th-13th October


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2018)

Well, this is nice. First commercial Bavarian booze ups and now royal visits. Now that's what I call a community asset!

Another Royal visit for the loss making Pop Brixton as King and Queen of the Netherlands set to visit shipping containers


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2018)

Here's another event for all the community!



> Event For The New Zealand Cellar
> 
> When we say GARAGE you say SALE! Yes, you read that correctly our festive wine enthusiasts - Christmas is coming early this year in the form of our annual Garage Sale. For those of you new to the fold The Garage Sale is a day of frivolity, killer tunes, festive cheer … oh and more than 60 wines at ridiculously discounted prices. This is the one day of the year you can get all your Christmas gifts sorted, hang out with wine-minded people and satisfy all your drinking needs.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2018)

editor said:


> Well, this is nice. First commercial Bavarian booze ups and now royal visits. Now that's what I call a community asset!
> 
> Another Royal visit for the loss making Pop Brixton as King and Queen of the Netherlands set to visit shipping containers



From the website:



> A visit to the south London district of Brixton will highlight common social challenges such as integration, safety and diverse groups living together in a single neighbourhood. Pop Brixton supports local jobs, training and enterprise by providing space for startups and social projects. The businesses all invest at least one hour a week to support local activities with their knowledge and skills. By working with schools, charities and community organisations they nurture engagement with the local community. The King and Queen will visit Pop Brixton together with the Earl and Countess of Wessex.



Programme for the state visit to the United Kingdom

How do Pop manage to get this PR? Whoever is doing it is doing a great job.

And I sm struggling to see how Pop helps with integration.

Plus I find something objectionable about aristocracy coming to Brixton to see "social challenges".


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> The businesses all invest at least one hour a week to support local activities with their knowledge and skills


LOL.


----------



## editor (Oct 25, 2018)

I'm hearing rumours about some sort of major management shake-up 'situation' arising there. Anyone know anything?


----------



## Tricky Skills (Oct 25, 2018)

editor said:


> I'm hearing rumours about some sort of major management shake-up 'situation' arising there. Anyone know anything?



I'm at a loss


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 7, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> And almost a year later funding for a wider network of them:
> 
> The Community Fridge, coming to a corner near you?




To answer some previous questions about why it's located in Pop - turns out Lambeth planning told them that they would not approve a planning bid to have it installed in Popes Road.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> To answer some previous questions about why it's located in Pop - turns out Lambeth planning told them that they would not approve a planning bid to have it installed in Popes Road.


So it ended up as an ineffective, but generally pleasing '_we're helping the community, oh yes we are_' bit of PR for Pop. Nice. Now if only they could sort out their immense debts, stop paying themselves so much and start giving some fucking money back to the community like they were supposed to.


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 7, 2018)

Hmm, that's a bit harsh, as you've taken the success of a volunteer run food distribution programme as an excuse to have a pop at one of your bete noirs.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> Hmm, that's a bit harsh, as you've taken the success of a volunteer run food distribution programme as an excuse to have a pop at one of your bete noirs.


Pop used it widely in their backslapping self promotion and seeing as this is a thread about Pop Brixton, I'm quite happy to point out their immense shortcomings. Why aren't you angry at Pop's total failure to deliver on the promised profit share with the community or the way the community partners were forced out at the start and replaced by Mayfair property developers?


> Two years since we started, we’re proud to be a community hub, an event venue, a space for community focused projects; The People’s Fridge and Pop Farm, and of course the space nearly 50 independent retailers, restaurants, street food startups and social enterprises call home.





> ...Lambeth Council is propping up Pop Brixton with a two year lease extension so that the private company can pay back loans to private investors.
> 
> Brixton Buzz reported at the start of the year how Pop Brixton owed creditors £1.65M. The original two year lease on Council land was then extended a further two years to give Pop Brixton ‘more time to pay back the loans.’
> 
> ...


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 7, 2018)

Well I was talking about the fridge, and only the fridge - just used the search engine to find my last post on it - hence why it's in this thread. 

My opinion of pop - is not really relevant to the fridge.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> Well I was talking about the fridge, and only the fridge - just used the search engine to find my last post on it - hence why it's in this thread.
> 
> My opinion of pop - is not really relevant to the fridge.


 But this is a thread entirely dedicated to Pop, so there's no need to be coy. So what do you think of the place?


----------



## snowy_again (Dec 7, 2018)

I think that i'm off to get some lunch.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 7, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> To answer some previous questions about why it's located in Pop - turns out Lambeth planning told them that they would not approve a planning bid to have it installed in Popes Road.



Have you a link to the relevant planning document that says this?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 8, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Have you a link to the relevant planning document that says this?


Sounds like it might have been given as pre-application advice in which case it wouldn't be on public record.


----------



## editor (Dec 8, 2018)

snowy_again said:


> I think that i'm off to get some lunch.


Why can't you give a straight answer to a relevant question instead of posting up evasive shit like this? it just makes you look like a troll.


----------



## discobastard (Dec 8, 2018)

editor said:


> Why can't you give a straight answer to a relevant question instead of posting up evasive shit like this? it just makes you look like a troll.


Why are you being so abusive to a poster who made a single considered point? 

That’s really out of order.


----------



## editor (Dec 8, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Why are you being so abusive to a poster who made a single considered point?
> 
> That’s really out of order.


To ask a poster's opinion on a topic in a thread solely dedicated to that subject truly is a crime against humanity. What do you think of Pop? Have you an opinion? If not, kindly GTFO of this thread. Thanks.


----------



## editor (Dec 8, 2018)

Yah. Totes Brixton. So diverse.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2018)

teuchter said:


> Sounds like it might have been given as pre-application advice in which case it wouldn't be on public record.



I would like to know from snowy_again.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Why are you being so abusive to a poster who made a single considered point?
> 
> That’s really out of order.



There isn't anyway of knowing if it is a considered point at this time.


----------



## cuppa tee (Dec 8, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> There isn't anyway of knowing if it is a considered point at this time.


This has come up this thread before......



cuppa tee said:


> so......Pop is going to be the location of a " community fridge"
> 
> Community Fridge Launches In Brixton, Where Local Businesses Can Donate Spare Food To Those In Need | The Huffington Post
> 
> strange juxtaposition putting it in a "foodie hotspot"



...and management said the following



editor said:


> Even the people who installed it think its current location is an issue, but there you go.
> 
> I haven't seen much slagging off of Pop anywhere recently: the entirely reasonable issue of the the location of the fridge was brought up and then the usual beef-laden types weighed in. Yawn.


----------



## editor (Dec 8, 2018)

cuppa tee said:


> This has come up this thread before......
> 
> 
> 
> ...and management said the following


Of course that conversation happened before the fucking enormous losses of Pop Brixton were revealed and their subsequent PR spin machine whirred into action.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 8, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I would like to know from snowy_again.


I don't quite get why there's the suspicion that it's an untrue account.

Is there some theory that Pop didn't want it on the street and forced it to be inside for nefarious reasons?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2018)

teuchter said:


> I don't quite get why there's the suspicion that it's an untrue account.
> 
> Is there some theory that Pop didn't want it on the street and forced it to be inside for nefarious reasons?



I asked straightforward question.

I never said anything about being suspicious of about it being untrue.

Your reading things into my post which have no justification if you read my post correctly as a straight forward question.


----------



## discobastard (Dec 8, 2018)

editor said:


> To ask a poster's opinion on a topic in a thread solely dedicated to that subject truly is a crime against humanity. What do you think of Pop? Have you an opinion? If not, kindly GTFO of this thread. Thanks.


There are other ways to request an opinion that don't involve insults.

Pop is not for me.  And it seems very shoddily run.  That's my opinion.


----------



## discobastard (Dec 8, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> There isn't anyway of knowing if it is a considered point at this time.



I think what snowy was saying was perfectly.  To then ask them to comment with a loaded expectation of criticism is unreasonable.


----------



## editor (Dec 8, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I think what snowy was saying was perfectly.  To then ask them to comment with a loaded expectation of criticism is unreasonable.


This thread is about Pop Brixton, not your personal opinion about posting etiquette in a post that didn't even involve you. Please keep on topic.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2018)

discobastard said:


> I think what snowy was saying was perfectly.  To then ask them to comment with a loaded expectation of criticism is unreasonable.



Your totally missing the point I was making.

Snowy has not answered my query.

So for now no one knows if his point is a " considered" one.

There is no evidence either way if Snowy point is "perfectly".


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 8, 2018)

definition of considered.

CONSIDERED | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

At this time I have no idea if Snowy post is due to something that has been reached after a lot of thought. I was asking for clarification. ie  evidence that planning authorities said this. Before I jumped to any conclusions about whether his post was reasonable of not.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 8, 2018)

You don't suspect it's untrue but nonetheless you want to see evidence to make sure it's true.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 9, 2018)

teuchter said:


> You don't suspect it's untrue but nonetheless you want to see evidence to make sure it's true.



I've made it pretty clear I think. I'm not making any assumptions either way.

I've never said I don't suspect its untrue.

I wish you would stop trying to imply things in my posta Im not actually saying.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 9, 2018)

So you neither confirm nor deny the allegations that you have alleged the possibility of an untruth.

Everything's clear for the future historians


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 9, 2018)

teuchter said:


> So you neither confirm nor deny the allegations that you have alleged the possibility of an untruth.
> 
> Everything's clear for the future historians



I have been straightforward and clear.  Asked a straightforward question and you are trying to make something of it that isn't there.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2018)

This thread does a rather good job of revealing who actually wants to talk about important Brixton matters and who is more interested in dragging it down into petty personal rubbish, making no on-topic posts over several pages.  If it continues, the 'ban from thread' option will be employed. If anyone wants to discuss this policy, kindly take it to the feedback forum as any further disruption in this thread will not be tolerated, and off-topic posts removed.


----------



## SpamMisery (Dec 9, 2018)

*Near Mint Record Fair 15th December* 

1200-1600





A day of records, DJ's, music food and drinks. A mixture of dealers, labels, indies for all types of collectors to indulge.

A little more than the standard fair, with live streaming and DJ’s playing all genres all day with an after-party set to roll until midnight.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 9, 2018)

Bound to be loads of over-priced vinyl for people who call records 'vinyls' and want to buy a copy of something 'classic' and 'ironic' and cool


----------



## SpamMisery (Dec 9, 2018)

I like that you don't like people calling them vinyl


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 9, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> I like that you don't like people calling them vinyl



I was certain you would.


----------



## T & P (Dec 9, 2018)

No different from any other kind of collector/ collectible items really, from stamps to books to paintings/ art. Each to their own AFAIAC.


----------



## SpamMisery (Dec 9, 2018)

So wonderfully trivial. Classic DJ


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 9, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> So wonderfully trivial. Classic DJ



Meaning?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 9, 2018)

T & P said:


> No different from any other kind of collector/ collectible items really, from stamps to books to paintings/ art. Each to their own AFAIAC.



What is no different?


----------



## T & P (Dec 9, 2018)

Nanker Phelge said:


> What is no different?


Collectible records and the people who buy them, from any other type of collectors. I might not think much of stamps for instance, but other people do and their hobby is as valid  in my eyes as someone who collects art or books for instance. Records don’t swing me either, but if someone is excited by an early pressing of one of their favourite artists’ albums, I can’t blame them or judge them for paying a premium price to own one.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Dec 9, 2018)

T & P said:


> Collectible records and the people who buy them, from any other type of collectors. I might not think much of stamps for instance, but other people do and their hobby is as valid  in my eyes as someone who collects art or books for instance. Records don’t swing me either, but if someone is excited by an early pressing of one of their favourite artists’ albums, I can’t blame them or judge them for paying a premium price to own one.



You sound like you don't know what you are talking about. I've collected records for 40 years.

What is your point?


----------



## discobastard (Dec 9, 2018)

editor said:


> This thread is about Pop Brixton, not your personal opinion about posting etiquette in a post that didn't even involve you. Please keep on topic.


If you can’t comment on posting etiquette relevant to a particular thread, or even support a poster’s point of view without being criticised in that thread then that feels like the thread is being micro-managed such that discussion and debate is no longer allowed.  

Happy not to take part in this thread anymore.


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2018)

discobastard said:


> Happy not to take part in this thread anymore.


That's great because all you're doing is transparently pursuing the same bloody boring and disruptive personal agenda you smear over so many other threads, and trashing any hope of a decent debate in the process.


----------



## alcopop (Dec 10, 2018)

They have free tai chi every Monday!

Surely that’s a good thing?


----------



## SpamMisery (Dec 10, 2018)

I'd rather it was free chai tea


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2018)

Coming up in Pop Brixton: that Human-focussed digital platform to help "those most left behind by society and the property market"



> My client FirstHomeCoach is on a mission to help first time buyers get on the property ladder. They have today announced that they have developed an app to put everything “all in one place”, to help people help themselves to get on the ladder and give people hope that it CAN be a reality.
> 
> They are having their first roadshow event at *Pop Brixton on the 19th December *aimed at the first time buyer community - basically anyone who has a dream to put down roots and call a place home, details as follows:
> 
> ...





> FIRSTHOMECOACH: THE FIRST-TIME BUYER COACHING PLATFORM
> 
> NOW IN BETA
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2018)

Seeing as no one thinks this is of interest, I'll post up some FB comments from locals:


> Can they even spell irony?





> Sure that's going to ease the burden of traveling 2 hundred miles to see your nan because you had to move up north as there are no council houses or anywhere you can afford to rent





> Oh , so this is the ‘community’ shit we were promised when POP was funded .... oh no, I forgot. It’s a ‘business park’ now .... that has yet to show any profit after 4 years at ‘peppercorn rent’, but with much extra funding from Lambeth council. Anyone would think this council was awash with spare cash. How much were the Town Hall renovations again


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 19, 2018)

I Think that firsthomecoach have spectacularly misunderstood why people can't buy their first home.


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I Think that firsthomecoach have spectacularly misunderstood why people can't buy their first home.


The fucking deluded PR-spinning twats think they're actually helping "those most left behind by society." Perhaps they'll being their brochures along to the food bank and to the homeless and tell them all how to get on the property ladder.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 19, 2018)

editor said:


> The fucking deluded PR-spinning twats think they're actually helping "those most left behind by society." Perhaps they'll being their brochures along to the food bank and to the homeless and tell them all how to get on the property ladder.


Along with £500k per person as the deposit and a well paying job so they can pay the mortgage? It's missed so many factors as to why people don't buy. Not to mention those dictating why they can't buy. 

It's like those news articles  where people say they saved a ridiculous amount of money in an unfeasibly short period of time, and it turns out they were living with mummy and daddy and had no rent or bills to pay.


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Along with £500k per person as the deposit and a well paying job so they can pay the mortgage? It's missed so many factors as to why people don't buy. Not to mention those dictating why they can't buy.
> 
> It's like those news articles  where people say they saved a ridiculous amount of money in an unfeasibly short period of time, and it turns out they were living with mummy and daddy and had no rent or bills to pay.


And yet the "community" minded Pop Brixton invite them in to peddle their fantasy bollocks.


----------



## Hoss (Dec 19, 2018)

I've just seen their checklist of things 'all in one place's. Savings is the first item. Even as someone who is, relatively 'ok' it's really fucking hard to save up for a deposit. I can't see how this checklist is going to help people 'left behind'. It's absolute bollocks.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 19, 2018)

editor said:


> And yet the "community" minded Pop Brixton invite them in to peddle their fantasy bollocks.


I really don't get how these first home coach people can believe in what they are doing. I get that it might help some of the Made in Chelsea crowd who have a spare half-mil tucked away, but not most people.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 19, 2018)

Hoss said:


> I've just seen their checklist of things 'all in one place's. Savings is the first item. Even as someone who is, relatively 'ok' it's really fucking hard to save up for a deposit. I can't see how this checklist is going to help people 'left behind'. It's absolute bollocks.
> 
> Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk


Exactly. If people were paid a decent wage so they could afford savings, that would be one thing. And as you save for the deposit, the housing market continues to rise.


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I really don't get how these first home coach people can believe in what they are doing. I get that it might help some of the Made in Chelsea crowd who have a spare half-mil tucked away, but not most people.


No wonder they chose to host it in Pop Brixton.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 19, 2018)

editor said:


> No wonder they chose to host it in Pop Brixton.


Being disingenuous might be what they have in common, after all.


----------



## editor (Dec 19, 2018)

So I said to their PR agency:



> They actually believe that they are helping "those most left behind by society"? What do they do? Hand out mortgages at soup kitchens and food banks?


And they replied:


> Yes, they do:
> 
> They are focused on affordable housing, using market innovations like Shared Ownership, LISAs and Rent Recognition to give those at the fringes a plan.
> 
> ...



Note: "seeking to work...".


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 23, 2018)

editor said:


> So I said to their PR agency:
> 
> 
> And they replied:
> ...


Creating a feedback loop? What bollocks.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2019)

Another year another loss, and even some creative accounting won't cover up the fact that they owe their creditors an almighty £1.68 million on top of a new £0.5million loan. And this from land that was gifted RENT FREE. 

Backfiring Pop Brixton registers losses for the third year in a row as Lambeth declares it a community success story


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2019)

And here''s the picture Lambeth chose to illustrate their great 'community' success.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jan 3, 2019)

editor said:


> And here''s the picture Lambeth chose to illustrate their great 'community' success.



The epitome  of homogeneity


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 13, 2019)

Hardly representative of the wider local community, is it?


----------



## snowy_again (Jan 13, 2019)

I see Sisters of Reggae have taken up a residency there...


----------



## snowy_again (Mar 7, 2019)

Community fridge network for tackling food waste set to double

Community Fridge expansion (not specifically PB but the same charity: Hubbub Foundation  | Home)


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2019)

Interesting to note that they think that they're best known for "Mega parties and all-day festivals"...



I was told that they charge a fucking fortune in hire charges too.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2019)

editor said:


> Interesting to note that they think that they're best known for "Mega parties and all-day festivals"...
> 
> 
> 
> I was told that they charge a fucking fortune in hire charges too.



I can't think why anyone would want to get married there.


----------



## editor (Mar 18, 2019)

Let's bring, err, sexy back! With banter. Awesome.


----------



## editor (Mar 19, 2019)

It's now "South London’s top foodie heaven!"



Small can of beer £5. Yeah!


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2019)

Ah yes. A greenhouse drinking/party venue.


----------



## editor (May 21, 2019)

Would you believe it? it's the *exact same story *in Peckham as it is in Brixton. It's unprofitable, has little connection with the existing community and the 'community hours' are all bollocks too. 



> Alongside these structural issues, Peckham Levels’ community focus wasn’t nearly as present as the food vendors had anticipated. The venture is yet to turn a profit, meaning that the commitment to donate 10 percent of its profits to a community fund is yet to be fulfilled. Make Shift told VICE that as it doesn’t expect Peckham Levels to become profitable until its third or fourth year, so has contributed its own money to that fund in the meantime. This is good, but it does mean that Make Shift gets to determine the amount that it will donate. (This amount was not disclosed to VICE).
> 
> Meanwhile, community hours, which are part of every Peckham Levels member’s contract, go largely unfulfilled, according to all the food vendors I spoke to. The service-level agreement between Southwark Council and Make Shift outlines the company's initial commitment to "deliver 3,600 hours training or equivalent community benefit," but admits that it has "struggled to make this work in a meaningful way."





> The question of who, exactly, Peckham Levels is for became a problem for other food vendors too. Rose Whyte was invited by Make Shift to open her bakery, Blue Haired Baker, at the site in February 2019. As a Peckham local, she also saw a disparity between the demographic in Peckham Levels and on the street outside.
> 
> “For me personally, as a person from the community, from a working-class background, I always wonder, where are these things for people like me, or people I know?,” Whyte tells me over the phone. “A lot of the people who go there aren't of the community.”
> 
> After a two-month stint, she decided to leave.





> What’s more, the majority of Peckham Levels’ studio spaces, which were promoted as a way to support local creatives and entrepreneurs, do not appear to be rented to Peckham residents. According to Make Shift, the percentage of Southwark residents in the studio spaces is “70 percent to date,” but the quarterly report states that currently, only 62 percent are from Southwark, while less than half (45 percent) are from Peckham.


Peckham Has a Gentrification Problem. A Converted Car Park Wanted to Solve It


----------



## alex_ (May 21, 2019)

editor said:


> Would you believe it? it's the *exact same story *in Peckham as it is in Brixton. It's unprofitable, has little connection with the existing community and the 'community hours' are all bollocks too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I bet it’s very profitable for the directors.

Alex


----------



## editor (May 21, 2019)

alex_ said:


> I bet it’s very profitable for the directors.
> 
> Alex


Of course it is. I'm sure they'll all paid handsomely, despite their total failure to deliver a profit.


----------



## Gramsci (May 21, 2019)

editor said:


> Would you believe it? it's the *exact same story *in Peckham as it is in Brixton. It's unprofitable, has little connection with the existing community and the 'community hours' are all bollocks too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read the whole article.

Agree its exactly the same story.

Why did Southwark Council do a profit share? Did they not look at Pop Brixton?  Its now part of Pop business practice to agree to profit share. Which won't happen.

All the rest of article is same as Brixton.

Was this article written by Brixton Buzz? No by Vice. Expect criticism of Vice for its sloppy journalism

Its kind of depressing to be proved right about the Pop business model.

Btw saw Our new leader Cllr Jack hanging out in Pop Brixton today. Meets all Progress Labours requirements for a progressive future.

The only good thing about saving Peckham levels is that the cinema stays.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2019)

This comment in the FB Reclaim Brixton group nailed it:



> So, as whitewashed as Pop Brixton, and as unable to entirely fulfil the social obligations or deliver the social benefits it promised. Now there's a surprise. Another vehicle for gentrification, and the whitewashing of a vibrant multicultural area into somewhere safe for the monied middle classes, come to soak up the "edgy" Peckham vibe. Problem being that their touristic impulses contribute to destroying the vibe.
> Still, you can sell any idea to councils by promising a few social benefits. They'll roll over for developers at the drop of a hat.


----------



## editor (Jun 17, 2019)

Loss making Pop likely to keep on making no money for Lambeth till 2024 now 
Pop Brixton set to extend its stay until 2024


----------



## editor (Jun 25, 2019)

What does urban think of this 'Little Leaders' event. £22.25 for each kid taking part, with 'celeb talk,' a 'pamper parlour' and 'braid bar.'


> Title: Little Leaders
> Date: Sunday 1 September 2019
> Time: 11:00 to 18:00
> Location: Pop Brixton, 49 Brixton Station Road, London, SW9 8PQ
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 25, 2019)

And now I've learnt the word 'mumtrepreneur.'


----------



## Smangus (Jun 25, 2019)

editor said:


> And now I've learnt the word 'mumtrepreneur.'



Barf.


----------



## Ol Nick (Jun 25, 2019)

editor said:


> What does urban think of this 'Little Leaders' event. £22.25 for each kid taking part, with 'celeb talk,' a 'pamper parlour' and 'braid bar.'


Little Lebowski Urban Achievers


----------



## organicpanda (Jun 25, 2019)

editor said:


> And now I've learnt the word 'mumtrepreneur.'


bet you wish you hadn't


----------



## ska invita (Jun 27, 2019)

Would someone mind doing a short begginers guide recap to what Pop promised/obligations are and how it's failed? It's a long thread and hard to find that exact info. Would appreciate it.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 27, 2019)

ska invita said:


> exact info.


Good luck with that


----------



## editor (Jun 27, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Would someone mind doing a short begginers guide recap to what Pop promised/obligations are and how it's failed? It's a long thread and hard to find that exact info. Would appreciate it.







It was supposed to be Grow Brixton but quickly become Booze Brixton. 
Grow:Brixton team to transform empty space at Pope’s Road in Brixton

It's lost shitloads of money for three years in a row.
Backfiring Pop Brixton registers losses for the third year in a row as Lambeth declares it a community success story

This article sums it all up: 
Exclusive: Grow Brixton to Pop Brixton – how a green oasis for the community turned into a 21st Century business park.


----------



## ChrisSouth (Jun 28, 2019)

editor said:


> It was supposed to be Grow Brixton but quickly become Booze Brixton.
> Grow:Brixton team to transform empty space at Pope’s Road in Brixton
> 
> It's lost shitloads of money for three years in a row.
> ...



It's not uncommon for start-up organizations not to  turn a profit for the first few years. It depends on their business plan. The difficulty is the information provided to/from Companies House, often isn't a reflection of what's actually going on.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jun 28, 2019)

ChrisSouth said:


> It's not uncommon for start-up organizations not to  turn a profit for the first few years. It depends on their business plan.



This is true but Pop was supposed to be short term. It would be an odd business plan that projected first making a profit in year 5 of a 2 year project.

Unless the intention was always that it would be there much longer than they claimed of course.


----------



## editor (Jun 28, 2019)

ChrisSouth said:


> It's not uncommon for start-up organizations not to  turn a profit for the first few years. It depends on their business plan. The difficulty is the information provided to/from Companies House, often isn't a reflection of what's actually going on.


Except that was planned to be a very short term development _from the very start_ with Lambeth dishing out the land for free in return for a share of the profits - of which there has been none - despite the lease being constantly extended in an attempt to get something back from this disaster. Yet Lambeth have declared Pop Brixton to be a roaring success.



> Grow: Brixton bid aims to, “bring together the local residents of Brixton through performance, making and growing."


Yeah, right.


----------



## Gramsci (Jun 30, 2019)

ChrisSouth said:


> It's not uncommon for start-up organizations not to  turn a profit for the first few years. It depends on their business plan. The difficulty is the information provided to/from Companies House, often isn't a reflection of what's actually going on.



Even big ones like Uber don't turn a profit for years.

I blame the ideological mindset of our New Labour Cllrs for this farce.

They spend a lot of their time attacking the present leadership of Labour party over Brexit and Anti semitism.

As they want return to the good old days of the Third Way.

Business friendly believing in entrepreneurs.

Its not a surprise to me that Pop isnt going to profit share with Council. Why would they if they could find way out of it?

New Labour politicians are incredibly naive about how business works.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 1, 2019)

The idea of entrepreneurs as creators of employment is rather like re-grading social housing into "affordable" housing.

It enables the politicos to claim to be addressing an issue - and by redefining the issue they can avoid responsibility by and large.

PS I love the idea that Jeremy Hunt is going to forgive the students fees of those who become entrepreneurs. Sounds completely upside down thinking on a par with the Help to Buy scheme - scientifically proven only to help the best off.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2019)

CH1 said:


> The idea of entrepreneurs as creators of employment is rather like re-grading social housing into "affordable" housing.
> 
> It enables the politicos to claim to be addressing an issue - and by redefining the issue they can avoid responsibility by and large.
> 
> PS I love the idea that Jeremy Hunt is going to forgive the students fees of those who become entrepreneurs. Sounds completely upside down thinking on a par with the Help to Buy scheme - scientifically proven only to help the best off.


Pretty much bang on. And it suggests that the reason why people are poor and struggling is simply because they're not _entrepreneurial _enough rather than the fucking shitty system that's screwing them over.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 3, 2019)

CH1 said:


> The idea of entrepreneurs as creators of employment is rather like re-grading social housing into "affordable" housing.
> 
> It enables the politicos to claim to be addressing an issue - and by redefining the issue they can avoid responsibility by and large.
> 
> PS I love the idea that Jeremy Hunt is going to forgive the students fees of those who become entrepreneurs. Sounds completely upside down thinking on a par with the Help to Buy scheme - scientifically proven only to help the best off.



Noticed even the Evening Standard said that the money that Hunt and Boris are promising to hand out makes Corbyns Labour party seem fiscally responsible.

One possible good thing about Brexit is that it may reduce the obsession with entrepreneurs.

The State is going to have to step in if Brexit really happens. Step in big time to avoid disaster.


----------



## T & P (Jul 3, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> One possible good thing about Brexit is that it may reduce the obsession with entrepreneurs.


I fear the opposite might come to be. In the shit times that lay ahead, every tax-dodging British millionaire businessman will be lauded and hailed as a shining example of what success Brits can achieve in the world thanks to their hard work, ingenuity and determination. Who needs the EU if people get on their bikes and work hard and all that...


----------



## teuchter (Aug 9, 2019)

Pop currently advertising themselves to the folk of Loughborough Junction.


----------



## T & P (Aug 9, 2019)

Oh dear...


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2019)

Another deserving local start-up given a chance thanks to Pop Brixton. Oh, wait....


----------



## Ol Nick (Sep 2, 2019)

editor said:


> Another deserving local start-up given a chance thanks to Pop Brixton. Oh, wait....



Johnnie Walker I can take or leave but if they could get Tony Blackburn down...


----------



## editor (Sep 3, 2019)

The Collective seem to be doing very nicely for themselves. Shame that they can't make Pop Brixton profitable when they're raking in hundreds of millions elsewhere. 



> “The Collective make similar claims about solving the housing crisis but it doesn’t stand up,” Stewart says. “Teige was talking about a mixture of different ages, generations, classes – it wasn’t targeted at a specific group. It was more about democratising housing, rather than just having these enclaves of millennials who are being charged a lot of money. ”





> The Collective has received $800m to fund growth across the UK, US and Europe and now has 8,000 units operating or under development. It has just opened what it claims is the world’s biggest co-living development in Canary Wharf, with 705 rooms, a swimming pool on the 20th floor and a golf simulator. The smallest rooms are available from £100 a night (though a cursory glance at the booking system suggests rates are often £150 or more), £1863pm for a three month stay and £1430pm if you stay for 12 months. Its New York location (a converted hotel) is only available for short stays.
> 
> This focus on the higher end of the market might not be surprising given the Collective’s CEO is Reza Merchant, a 29-year-old who was educated at the £20,000-a-year Merchant Taylors’ School and was able to launch the Collective after borrowing £1.8m against his parent’s home.
> 
> Despite the lack of social tenancies or facilities for families, he maintains the Collective is a project rooted in providing community for average city dwellers.


Co-living: the end of urban loneliness – or cynical corporate dorms?


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2019)

Another year, another shitload of debt. A total liability to the community. 
Disastrous Pop Brixton makes a loss for the fourth year in a row as the debts continue


----------



## ricbake (Sep 25, 2019)

editor said:


> Another year, another shitload of debt. A total liability to the community.
> Disastrous Pop Brixton makes a loss for the fourth year in a row as the debts continue


 £32,000 paid to Lambeth council - that totals £666 per month for their chunk of vibrant, edgy, on trend central Brixton!

Works out at over £20 a day


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2019)

ricbake said:


> £32,000 paid to Lambeth council - that totals £666 per month for their chunk of vibrant, edgy, on trend central Brixton!
> 
> Works out at over £20 a day


Their report states that their operating costs are an eye watering £1.22 MILLION for a single year with an ADDITIONAL quarter of a million quid spent on marketing.

It's almost unfathomable that such a relatively small venue could accrue such sky-high costs. And why aren't the businesses promoting themselves?


----------



## teuchter (Sep 26, 2019)

Pop Brixton's Fourth Birthday Annual Accounts | Pop Brixton

Pop Brixton's own explanation of the numbers


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 26, 2019)

In Pops own report they are making a loss. 



> the same period, we depreciated the cost of building the project by a further £337,000 and paid interest on our loans of £52,000. In addition, we received a tax credit of £52,000. This means we returned a net loss of £171,000 for the period.



Pop Brixton's Fourth Birthday Annual Accounts | Pop Brixton

Given they got the land for free and a lot of support from the Council this isn't that great a success. 

They are a meanwhlle project. If the Council hadn't extended the lease they would have been up shit creek.

I'm assuming Peckham levels finances are kept separate from Pop.


----------



## editor (Oct 7, 2019)

Damning piece on Pop fucking Brixton



> POP Brixton is still owned by The Collective, a property company with flat complexes in the Isle of Dogs and west London, with a combined property portfolio of £2.7 billion. A redacted name on the lease agreement for POP Brixton is registered "c/o The Collective" as the guarantor, viewed as part of a Freedom of Information Act request made by VICE. The Collective also has a seat on Make Shift's board of directors, and provides guidance and support for the running of POP Brixton.
> 
> A commercial food market owned by a multi-billion pound property company? It’s a long way from the original Grow: Brixton bid.


And what I've been saying from day one: 


> But for many locals, POP Brixton does not seem to have been designed with them in mind. “When POP Brixton opened, I remember going there and not even feeling welcome, even though I'd lived [in Brixton] my whole life,” local baker Rose Whyte told me when I spoke to her earlier this year.


Cash-Strapped Councils and Gentrification: The Problem with POP Brixton


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2019)

Interesting follow up from Vice



> Our original reporting found that, after four-and-a-half years, POP Brixton had made a profit and given half of this to Lambeth Council, as per their profit-share agreement, outlined in the SLAs. This was in part based on information sent to VICE by Lambeth Council in an email, which stated: "Profit share was received in the 18/19 financial year only and was in the amount of £53,750" [sic].
> 
> However, following the publication of our piece, Lambeth Council has disclosed to VICE that this information is incorrect.
> 
> ...





> A council spokesperson told VICE: "As Lambeth and Pop are in negotiations for an extension of the lease until 2022 it is likely that a fixed rent amount will become payable in lieu of profit share."


POP Brixton Is Yet to Make a Profit


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Interesting follow up from Vice
> 
> 
> 
> POP Brixton Is Yet to Make a Profit



I'm not a businessman but looks to me that Carl Turner is doing alright with Peckham Levels.

I don't understand how running a business with no profit to share with Lambeth Council is able to have bigger project with Southwark Council .


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Interesting follow up from Vice
> 
> 
> 
> POP Brixton Is Yet to Make a Profit



I pity journalists who have to deal with Lambeth communication team.

Bit like having to deal with senior officers.

"When I said this at previous meeting I didn't mean what it said I meant something else. Why are you being so hostile towards me."


----------



## editor (Nov 19, 2019)

I took a look yesterday. Nothing there to interest me at all. 

















In photos: Pop Brixton on a very quiet Monday evening, November 2019


----------



## Paul Hill (Nov 20, 2019)

editor said:


> The Collective seem to be doing very nicely for themselves. Shame that they can't make Pop Brixton profitable when they're raking in hundreds of millions elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember when the Markets wanted to use Pop Brixton site as a traders' car park. The plan showed very clearly that a traders' car park could easily earn £250,000 a year to the great advantage of both traders and Lambeth. So we got this stupid loser of a Pop Brixton instead. That was Lambeth Council trying hard to be businesslike. Pshaw!


----------



## Rushy (Nov 20, 2019)

Does anyone know how much the Pop site generates in business rates?


----------



## editor (Nov 20, 2019)

Word is that Makeshift's accounts are now 2 months late. Funny, that.


----------



## nick (Nov 22, 2019)

Not sure that "word is" is quite accurate - it appears to be a fact

Make shift Community Ltd? Company number 09709012?

next accounts were due 30 Sept 2019. So that is a £100 fine FWIW

Accounting year extended from 31 July 18 to 31 Dec 18 in Sept `18. Meaning no published accounts available for periods after July 2017

MAKE SHIFT COMMUNITY LTD - Filing history (free information from Companies House)


HTH

Ps someone with time on their hands may wish to pick apart the 27 page pdf detailing the outstanding charge that is also freely accessible from companies house website


----------



## CH1 (Nov 24, 2019)

nick said:


> Not sure that "word is" is quite accurate - it appears to be a fact
> Make shift Community Ltd? Company number 09709012?
> next accounts were due 30 Sept 2019. So that is a £100 fine FWIW
> Accounting year extended from 31 July 18 to 31 Dec 18 in Sept `18. Meaning no published accounts available for periods after July 2017
> ...


The charge is a 27 page legal mystery to me.
However the company which has issued the charge is registered in Jersey (where else?).
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-...ncome-fund-limited-ordina/company-information

So how did Lambeth Council get itself into providing a subsidised entertainment complex for the benefit of Hargreaves Lansdowne investors investing through Jersey? This is a scandal.


----------



## CH1 (Nov 25, 2019)

As it hasn't been mentioned for 5½ years on this thread, Carl Turner, the éminence grise of Pop Brixton first achieved notoriety in Brixton via Channel 4's Grand Designs, which featured his modernist machine for living in Lytham Road.

There is an article here 
or for connoisseurs of such things the TV programme is currently on recycle

Just for fun: much was made of Mr Turner's zero carbon aspirations and solar cell roof garden in the Lytham Road house
 
Does anyone know if there are solar cells deployed at Pop Brixton?
That upstairs communal area is baking hot in summer - but presumably that is just a greenhouse effect (for planting that never happened).


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2019)

CH1 said:


> As it hasn't been mentioned for 5½ years on this thread, Carl Turner, the éminence grise of Pop Brixton first achieved notoriety in Brixton via Channel 4's Grand Designs, which featured his modernist machine for living in Lytham Road..


What a lovely man 

Search Results for: carl turner


----------



## editor (Jan 6, 2020)

This is well worth a read









						Owners of Pop Brixton reveal another massive loss in company accounts filed three months late
					

Make Shift Community, the owners of loss-making Pop Brixton, have just filed their annual accounts, which show them again making a massive loss.



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## CH1 (Jan 6, 2020)

editor said:


> This is well worth a read
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What or earth is going on? We were sold the line that this was some sort of community venture which would pay its way. Instead of that we seem to have some sort of white kids Hedonism 3 with added icicles and no sex.

It does employ a quota of security workers though - of all sexes. But do we want to foster a society where white (employed) youth go carousing in shipping containers "protected" by uniformed men and women of a different race?

I used to greatly enjoy the film of HG Wells Time Machine formerly shown a Christmas time in the days before everything on TV was a game show.  Maybe the Pop Brixton users and promoters should take note of this admirably crisp description of HG Wells's characters in the time machine. If evolution is true they could be in for a bumpy ride! 

"The *Eloi* are happy, carefree people who live above the earth's surface, eating fruit and basking in the sun, while the *Morlocks* lurk in the underground and shadows, hiding from light and only venturing out of their dark habitats to capture and feed on the *Eloi *race."


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 6, 2020)

editor said:


> This is well worth a read
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As the overall company "Makeshift" run two other projects ( Peckham and the Olympic site) I don't understand how the Council is going to ascertain its much vaunted profit share from Pop.

From reading the article looks like the different projects are all linked financially. With some of them debtors or creditors of the other projects. 

Sounds to me like some creative accounting is going on.  

Why the Council didn't insist that Pop be a stand alone company for that site only is a mystery to me.

Looks like profitability is also now linked to what is happening on the other two sites.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2020)

I can look at the charge document if it will help?

Also, companies house didn't just threaten to strike Make Shift off, they actually started the process for doing so. So not an idle threat at all. 

The strike off process has now been discontinued.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2020)

Standalone companies means filing paperwork such as accounts for each one, which can be a pain in arse. Three separate companies is three times the hassle, three times the work to make sure deadlines aren't missed etc. So I would expect it's something like that.

That said, the council should have asked for a stand alone company for the sake of transparency. Much harder to hide things if there's no linked companies/accounts.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 11, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> That said, the council should have asked for a stand alone company for the sake of transparency. Much harder to hide things if there's no linked companies/accounts.



As the Council opted for a rent free land model with a profit share one would have thought this was obvious.

Its obvious to me and I'm not a businessman.


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2020)

The loss making machine is UNSTOPPABLE!









						Loss-making Pop Brixton set to be given further two year extension by Lambeth Council
					

Pop Brixton looks set to continue for another two years. Lambeth Council is proposing a further extension up to November 2022 for the loss-making organisation. The current lease expires in November…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2020)

There's quite a few empty units in there now, which perhaps isn't surprising given the asking monthly rates and the size of the units:

Restaurant Unit
3 units available Rent: £2,500 + VAT or 10% revenue share (whichever is higher)
Large Office
3 units available Rent: £1,100
Retail Boutique
2 units available Rent: £1,500 + VAT and 15% revenue share

Additional costs 

Gas is charged in arrears based on agreed usage per month.
Electricity is charged in arrears per month based on metered usage.


----------



## editor (Aug 18, 2020)

This is an excellent, in depth and well researched look at Pop Brixton's role in the area's gentrification.









						Gentrification, Pop Brixton, the Battle of Brixton and ‘The London Dream’
					

We’re delighted to be able to share, ‘The Battle of Brixton, Redux,’  a chapter from the forthcoming book, The London Dream by Chris McMillan. It’s a fascinating read, chart…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## CH1 (Aug 24, 2020)

Thing's are so depressing lately that for me there is only one TV show that fits the bill. I would love to live to see Pop Brixton feature.


----------



## editor (Sep 4, 2020)

It's utterly indefensible:



> Pop Brixton has enjoyed five years rent free on Lambeth Council-owned land for what was originally a two year lease with profits to be shared with the Council.
> 
> To date, the loss-making Pop Brixton has yet to make any profit to hand over to its Council partner.







Exclusive: Loss-making Pop Brixton has traded rent-free on Council land for five years and paid ZERO profit to Lambeth


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's utterly indefensible:
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Loss-making Pop Brixton has traded rent-free on Council land for five years and paid ZERO profit to Lambeth



I agree with Tricky Skills  analysis.

When I was watching the Hondo Planning Application Committee I thought of Pop.

The officers were going on and on about the entrepreunarial "ecosystem".

For Regen and senior planning officers ( who along with senior Cllrs make policy in Lambeth) Pop is great success and they do see getting McWilliams to put "social value" and Pop type business "ecosystem" in place as progressive.

Its Pop on a bigger scale.

Im worried now what permanent plans Regeneration officers are dreaming up for the Pop/ International House site.

Pop got extension partly as the officers are not up to speed on developing permanant plans for the "regeneration" of those sites.

I wonder what they are thinking.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's utterly indefensible:
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Loss-making Pop Brixton has traded rent-free on Council land for five years and paid ZERO profit to Lambeth



I agree with this from the article:


> The failure of the loss-making Pop Brixton is just another example of the Progress Cabinet’s obsession with social capital. The misguided belief is that you allow the free market to give a helping hand to anyone who wants to play the capitalist game.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 4, 2020)

editor said:


> It's utterly indefensible:
> 
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Loss-making Pop Brixton has traded rent-free on Council land for five years and paid ZERO profit to Lambeth



Also agree with this:



> The free market won’t solve the levels of social deprivation that can be seen outside of the walled garden of the freeloading Pop Brixton. It’s time that the Co-operative Council listened to residents, and not its Third Way loss-making partners.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:


> This comment in the FB Reclaim Brixton group nailed it:



What cunt wrote that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I agree with Tricky Skills  analysis.
> 
> When I was watching the Hondo Planning Application Committee I thought of Pop.
> 
> ...



What our buzzword-loving cllrs & senior officers fail to understand, is that the "entrepreneurial ecosystem" is partly predicated on those same cllrs & senior officers knowing very little about business, & falling over themselves to draw investment into the borough though "incentivising" said "entrepreneurs". Fuckwits, the lot of them.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Also agree with this:



Sadly, we're all of us well-aware how unusual it is for the farcically-titled "Cooperative Council" to listen to residents, let alone let themselves HEAR us.


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## editor (Oct 9, 2020)

There's some disturbing stuff about people moving around in Reprezent Radio circles in this article



			How It Felt When a Grime MC Slut-Shamed Me During a Clash - VICE


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## editor (Oct 9, 2020)

The total disaster that is Pop Brixton Brixton’s loss making Pop Brixton remains in debt owing creditors £655,000 and with £800,000 of losses to pay off


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## editor (Oct 14, 2020)

Well, this is nice: Loss-making Pop Brixton receives another financial lifeline from government’s Culture Recovery Fund


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## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2020)

editor said:


> Well, this is nice: Loss-making Pop Brixton receives another financial lifeline from government’s Culture Recovery Fund



I dont understand why they got this from the Cultural Recover Fund.

Looking up CRF and its for venues, museums and cultural organisations.

Pop is a eaterie/  shopping organisation with a sideline in being a venue. Id say most of it is not "cultural".


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## editor (Oct 21, 2020)

Good to see Vice picking up on this

*see link below!


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## CH1 (Oct 21, 2020)

editor said:


> Good to see Vice picking up on this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think a more direct link is here Venues Owned By Billion-Pound Property Company Receive Over £350,000 in Arts Bailout


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## editor (Oct 28, 2020)

More unaffordable tosh for tourists 









						Only Food and Courses in Pop Brixton to offer high end, banter-laden ‘Greasy Spoon’ dining
					

Opening in the perpetually loss making Pop Brixton next month is a new eatery called Only Food and Courses, promising guests ‘high-end food, delivered in casual, unpretentious surroundings &#…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## editor (Jan 4, 2021)

This is pretty damning stuff. All those small venues missing out on grants and the millionaire owners of Pop Brixton manage to pocket a wedge for themselves









						Loss making Pop Brixton uses £75,000 of Culture Recovery Fund to top up their reserves
					

A Brixton Buzz Freedom of Information request to the Arts Council has revealed some of the detail behind Pop Brixton’s application for £220,000 of funding from the government’s Culture Recovery Pro…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## Alex Sturgis (Feb 15, 2021)

Hey, I'm a student, called Alexandra Sturgis, currently studying human geography at the University of Leeds. At the moment, I'm working on my dissertation, which looks at Pop Brixton, considering its role within the area’s gentrification and the implications of the project. If there's anybody on this thread that has any knowledge or opinions on Pop Brixton- whether you are a resident of the area, have an interest in gentrification or any sort of interest in this project- I could really benefit from your knowledge. I’d love to organise a short interview, it would be a relaxed conversation, lasting approximately 20 minutes and conducted online, for example, through skype or zoom. It wouldn’t require any preparation, as again, I’d just be interested in your experiences and opinions. Involvement can be kept completely anonymous and you could also withdraw from the project at any time. Ideally, this would take place in late March, although dates and times can be selected at your convenience. Any involvement would be amazing so please get in touch if you are interested-  I'd be hugely grateful.



*ed: email removed


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## editor (Feb 15, 2021)

Alex Sturgis said:


> Hey, I'm a student, called Alexandra Sturgis, currently studying human geography at the University of Leeds...
> 
> 
> 
> *ed: email removed


Private surveys are not permitted here but you are welcome to join the discussion.


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## jordan21 (Feb 17, 2021)

I am conducting some research in Brixton as part of my undergraduate degree regarding the ongoing regeneration in Brixton. My intentions from this research project are to gather a sense of how the changes that have been happening in this area affect you, the long-standing population who often is not heard and ignored by policymakers. This remains an important ‘unfilled gap’ within research surrounding the regeneration of Brixton and providing these opinions as part of an academic piece could have positive implications on highlighting how these types of regeneration projects affect the most important people, the current population like yourselves. If this sounds interesting to you and you have been affected by the gentrification of Brixton please do respond with some thoughts to this thread I would be hugely grateful!


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## hypernormalized (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> There's quite a few empty units in there now, which perhaps isn't surprising given the asking monthly rates and the size of the units:
> 
> Restaurant Unit
> 3 units available Rent: £2,500 + VAT or 10% revenue share (whichever is higher)
> ...



I recognise that this post is old, but to be frank, in the post-march-2020 environment I wouldn't bother opening shop unless I could get a lease that's more like "2,500+VAT or 10% revenue share (whichever is lower)".

There's a very significant, possibly even a majority, chance that you just end up paying 30K a year to own a box with the front door locked "cos virus". The fact that the Government haven't stepped in to cancel rent is absurd (though not unexpected).


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## nick (Feb 17, 2021)

jordan21 said:


> I am conducting some research in Brixton as part of my undergraduate degree regarding the ongoing regeneration in Brixton. My intentions from this research project are to gather a sense of how the changes that have been happening in this area affect you, the long-standing population who often is not heard and ignored by policymakers. This remains an important ‘unfilled gap’ within research surrounding the regeneration of Brixton and providing these opinions as part of an academic piece could have positive implications on highlighting how these types of regeneration projects affect the most important people, the current population like yourselves. If this sounds interesting to you and you have been affected by the gentrification of Brixton please do respond with some thoughts to this thread I would be hugely grateful!


May I be the first to suggest you read the post above yours


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## ricbake (Mar 21, 2021)

My first search on jordan21 didn't reveal his post here - 

I got this message yesterday


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## nick (Mar 22, 2021)

I didn't get messaged by Jordan. Feeling unloved now


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## teuchter (Mar 22, 2021)

It's OK, me and Jordan have exchanged a few messages and we've agreed that I will give him my views dircetly and these will be taken as the "official and final opinion of the urban75 brixton forum". This is an arrangement I already have with various research institutes, public bodies, government departments and so on, so it's basically a cut and paste job for me, and easy money even when I offer a discount on my fees. Saves people on here from the bother of having to communicate with outsiders, and offers researchers a way of gathering information without lots of swear words and spelling mistakes in it. A win-win for everyone I think it's fair to say.


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## Gramsci (Mar 22, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's OK, me and Jordan have exchanged a few messages and we've agreed that I will give him my views dircetly and these will be taken as the "official and final opinion of the urban75 brixton forum". This is an arrangement I already have with various research institutes, public bodies, government departments and so on, so it's basically a cut and paste job for me, and easy money even when I offer a discount on my fees. Saves people on here from the bother of having to communicate with outsiders, and offers researchers a way of gathering information without lots of swear words and spelling mistakes in it. A win-win for everyone I think it's fair to say.



This is  wind up. Why do you post here and take delight in being contrarian?

Its not clever.


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## ricbake (Mar 22, 2021)

Odd he's overlooked you nick 
I wonder what aspect of teuchter 's posts attracted an approach....
Are you feeling unloved too Gramsci 


#channel4 #circle
😉


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## editor (Aug 17, 2021)

From green oasis for the community to this:



> Following a five month hiatus, South London’s leading cultural space, Pop Brixton, is back open and ready to reveal its lockdown glow up. As well as undergoing a seasonal revamp complete with tropical plants, colourful murals by local artists and a new garden dining space, the vibrant hub has welcomed four new food traders, all ready to serve up mouth-watering dishes: from scrumptious Irish sandwiches to authentic Sri Lanken Kottu and Cutlets. Elsewhere, the Pop Bar is standing by, ready to serve ice-cold mixed drinks, beers and ciders from Brixton’s local breweries and distilleries. The site is also prepped for a busy events schedule, featuring weekly DJ nights with resident radio station Reprezent, Record Store Day parties with Container Records, Euro 2020 screenings and an array of community events. Pop Brixton is open for walk-ins, no need to book ahead. For more information, visit popbrixton.org


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## nick (Aug 17, 2021)

Despite the transition from oasis to ?????, it is reassuring that the vibrancy remains a constant.


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## editor (Aug 17, 2021)

nick said:


> Despite the transition from oasis to ?????, it is reassuring that the vibrancy remains a constant.


Always vibrant, yet never paying back money to the council...


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## sparkybird (Aug 17, 2021)

I'd hardly say it was a 'leading cultural space' - although maybe if your culture involved eating and getting pissed....


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## Rushy (Aug 17, 2021)

sparkybird said:


> I'd hardly say it was a 'leading cultural space' - although maybe if your culture involved eating and getting pissed....


Sounds like a pretty good summary of British culture to me.


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## isvicthere? (Aug 18, 2021)

editor said:


> From green oasis for the community to this:



"Vibrant hub"? The very least I expect of my "hubs" is that they be "vibrant"!


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## editor (Oct 25, 2021)

The farce continues 









						Pop Brixton backers collapse into administration
					

The Collective, the property empire that has been bankrolling loss making Pop Brixton for several years, has collapsed into administration. Bloomberg broke the news in September that The Collective…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2021)

editor said:


> The farce continues
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's very interesting, although that's a staggeringly naive decision of his parents, raising money against their house. I wonder if the whole company was just debt piled upon debt. What's happening with his housing blocks for professionals, I wonder...

I also read 'Makeshift' as 'makeshit'


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## ricbake (Oct 25, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> That's very interesting, although that's a staggeringly naive decision of his parents, raising money against their house. I wonder if the whole company was just debt piled upon debt. What's happening with his housing blocks for professionals, I wonder...
> 
> I also read 'Makeshift' as 'makeshit'


I think it moved on quite considerably from Mum and Dad's backing...

_The main loan to the company was a £140M debt facility provided in February 2020 — just a month before the UK and U.S. went into lockdown — by Deutsche Bank and GCP Asset-Backed Income Fund, a specialist real estate lender listed on the stock exchange.  The loan partly refinanced an earlier debt facility secured against the Old Oak Common scheme, and it was used by the company’s management to buy majority control of the building from its Singaporean equity backers for £125M in 2018.
But it was also a "discretionary" facility that the company could use to buy more sites and expand. Of the loan, £87M was provided by Deutsche Bank and £53M by GCP. 


This 30 Year Old Created A $850 Million Co-Living Empire To Take On WeWork _


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## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2021)

ricbake said:


> I think it moved on quite considerably from Mum and Dad's backing...
> 
> _The main loan to the company was a £140M debt facility provided in February 2020 — just a month before the UK and U.S. went into lockdown — by Deutsche Bank and GCP Asset-Backed Income Fund, a specialist real estate lender listed on the stock exchange.  The loan partly refinanced an earlier debt facility secured against the Old Oak Common scheme, and it was used by the company’s management to buy majority control of the building from its Singaporean equity backers for £125M in 2018.
> But it was also a "discretionary" facility that the company could use to buy more sites and expand. Of the loan, £87M was provided by Deutsche Bank and £53M by GCP.
> ...


That is a large loan indeed. Cheers for the info.


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## RubyToogood (Oct 26, 2021)

I would like the idea of the cohousing thing if they didn't sound like money grabbing wankers.


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## Gramsci (Oct 26, 2021)

Having read the articles posted it looks like the Collective is victim of the pandemic.

Co working plus Co living came foul of restrictions put in place during lock downs. Also I would have thought with WFH the attraction of living/ working in Central London has dimmed.

I was at a financial company in the City today. The only person present was the security guard. No one able to take the letter. Rang one of them and they are all working from home. Business still working but not at the City office. They come in every now and then.

So a business model based around central London being a hive of activity has fallen foul of the pandemic.

Whilst the annoying cutting edge entrepreneur stuff is annoying looks to me that this is case of yet another company being damaged by pandemic and its possible long term effects.

Co living and Co working isn't going to come back soon. The Co working spaces I've seen in Central London are basically empty. It's been hard for them to keep going and satisfy covid safety guidelines.

What it does suggest is that there us now a surfeit of office space.

Whilst this business model was seen as cutting edge thus attracting investors it now looks like same investors have seen market has changed and the bankrolling of the Collective has dried up.


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## DaphneM (Oct 27, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Having read the articles posted it looks like the Collective is victim of the pandemic.
> 
> Co working plus Co living came foul of restrictions put in place during lock downs. Also I would have thought with WFH the attraction of living/ working in Central London has dimmed.
> 
> ...


i didnt think they were based in central london


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## twistedAM (Oct 27, 2021)

DaphneM said:


> i didnt think they were based in central london


It's the same for co-working spaces everywhere.


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## RubyToogood (Oct 27, 2021)

twistedAM said:


> It's the same for co-working spaces everywhere.


Not sure. I've been back at Impact Brixton lately (which is not at Pop any more) and that's doing fine.


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## pesh (Oct 27, 2021)

I was on several floors of the WeWork in Waterloo last week, it was heaving in there.


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## Gramsci (Oct 27, 2021)

DaphneM said:


> i didnt think they were based in central london



The had place in Canary wharf and Old Oak. Depends what you mean by central London.

I actually thought what I wrote was being generous to them. Saying that pandemic contributed to their demise.

The alternative explanation is that they are up themselves "entrepreneurs" helped to get started by bank of mum and dad. The interview about how they are providing affordable housing and are risk taking cutting edge entrepreneurs is bollocks. They weren't as good at business as they made out. 

What is your view?


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## Gramsci (Oct 27, 2021)

pesh said:


> I was on several floors of the WeWork in Waterloo last week, it was heaving in there.



That is interesting as I've found the City still fairly empty. Perhaps Co working places nearer to where people live are still doing OK.

There are gradually more people in the City. I was in Pret by the Gherkin today at lunch time. It almost felt like it used to be pre pandemic. It now feels odd. After all these months of the City just being populated by security guards, post room staff, IT staff and couriers.


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## alex_ (Oct 27, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> That is interesting as I've found the City still fairly empty. Perhaps Co working places nearer to where people live are still doing OK.
> 
> There are gradually more people in the City. I was in Pret by the Gherkin today at lunch time. It almost felt like it used to be pre pandemic. It now feels odd. After all these months of the City just being populated by security guards, post room staff, IT staff and couriers.



I think it depends what days you go in - eg Monday is really quiet


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## Gramsci (Oct 27, 2021)

alex_ said:


> I think it depends what days you go in - eg Monday is really quiet



Yes it is. I think the five day week at office has gone. Though I've noticed some receptionists have come back in last week or so.


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## DaphneM (Oct 28, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The had place in Canary wharf and Old Oak. Depends what you mean by central London.
> 
> I actually thought what I wrote was being generous to them. Saying that pandemic contributed to their demise.
> 
> ...


I thought Old Oak would be West London and Canary Wharf East London. For me Central London is more central...


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## Gramsci (Oct 28, 2021)

DaphneM said:


> I thought Old Oak would be West London and Canary Wharf East London. For me Central London is more central...



So as you've taken issue with my post can you answer my question what is your view on this? I've given you the alternative view.


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## DaphneM (Oct 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> So as you've taken issue with my post can you answer my question what is your view on this? I've given you the alternative view.


i was taking issue with your geography rather than your post. 

Don't understand what you mean when you say "alternative view"? you basically say it was a victim of pandemic yes? they had a business model & it didn't work out due to a changing social/macroeconomic environment?. 

Nothing too contentious there in my view. I commend you for your analysis


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## editor (Nov 9, 2021)

Pop Brixton. LOL. Pop Brixton management shown the red card


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## editor (Dec 17, 2021)

The continuing farce at Pop Brixton All change again at the permanently loss-making Pop Brixton


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## cuppa tee (Dec 17, 2021)

editor said:


> The continuing farce at Pop Brixton All change again at the permanently loss-making Pop Brixton



pop collapses in shambolic fashion, Taylor McWilliams empties his  piggy bank and Hond rides in like cavalry to save the day.....


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## editor (Feb 5, 2022)

It just gets worse: Loss making backers leave multi million pound debts whilst Pop Brixton remains in the red


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## editor (May 3, 2022)

The loss making site that won't die:









						Loss-Making Pop Brixton set for yet another lease extension beyond November 2022 as Lambeth Council plans long term for the Brixton Rec Quarter
					

A little more detail has emerged from Lambeth Council about the proposed Brixton Rec Quarter.



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## editor (Jun 8, 2022)

I think this could be the most expensive mid week comedy night in Brixton. £16.76! 









						Comedy night at Pop Brixton
					






					popbrixton.org


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## cuppa tee (Jun 17, 2022)

free drinks for dada’s this coming Sunday at POP



...wondering if you need to produce a kid to qualify.


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## editor (Jun 17, 2022)

cuppa tee said:


> free drinks for dada’s this coming Sunday at POP



Here Dad! Come along and enjoy your overpriced greasy burger and beer in a plastic glass on a shit wooden bench (if there's any seating available).


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## cuppa tee (Jun 17, 2022)

editor said:


> Here Dad! Come along and enjoy your overpriced greasy burger and beer in a plastic glass on a shit wooden bench (if there's any seating available).



yeah, it’s all a bit bleak innit....


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## Winot (Jul 27, 2022)

Tried to go to Pop Brixton last night with teenage daughters for dinner. Disappointed that it’s now over 18s only after 8pm because of their alcohol license. I guess it’s now just a place to get pissed.


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## editor (Jul 27, 2022)

Winot said:


> Tried to go to Pop Brixton last night with teenage daughters for dinner. Disappointed that it’s now over 18s only after 8pm because of their alcohol license. I guess it’s now just a place to get pissed.


It's been Brixton's biggest (council subsidised) bar for years. It's the same at Lost in Brixton, except they kick kids out as early as 5pm to ensure maximum ££££££ off boozers.


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## CH1 (Aug 1, 2022)

Winot said:


> Tried to go to Pop Brixton last night with teenage daughters for dinner. Disappointed that it’s now over 18s only after 8pm because of their alcohol license. I guess it’s now just a place to get pissed.


Its the post-Brexit culture mate. The idea of a family trip to a licensed venue is so _continentale._


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## editor (Nov 21, 2022)

The farce continues 









						Loss making Pop Brixton bought up by property investors
					

For months Brixton Buzz has been wondering who actually owns Pop Brixton, after the previous owners, Intelligere Investments Ltd, cleared off.



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## CH1 (Nov 21, 2022)

editor said:


> The farce continues
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Architects Journal interview you cited - with the illustrious Carl Turner - makes it very clear that Pop Brixton was very much a temporary venture - a stepping stone in his career if you like.
I guess the conspiracy theory on this might be that Pop Brixton had to be meanwhile "enough" to bridge the point in time when people demanded the council preserve and enhance the Rec to the point where everyone is just sick of everything and the developers can move in big-time on everything north of Brixton rail station.
Except we might be spared that if interest rates hold up and the sums no longer work for gentrification.


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## editor (Nov 21, 2022)

And this was it was supposed to be:



Carl Turner is very much the villain in this debacle. And Lambeth, of course. 

Speaking exclusively to Brixton Buzz, the EBS said:



> “Carl handed out some notes to us. They set out how he wanted to take full control.
> 
> This would reduce our role to just “community gardeners”, contractors on an annual fee, rather than equal partners, in the decision making and delivery of the project together as Grow:Brixton.
> 
> ...











						Exclusive: Grow Brixton to Pop Brixton – how a green oasis for the community turned into a 21st Century business park
					

As Pop Brixton prepares to celebrate its first birthday down at Pope’s Road this weekend, Brixton Buzz thought it would be a good time to ask: whatever happened to Grow:Brixton and the “green oasis…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


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## Tricky Skills (Nov 21, 2022)

"Imagine a green oasis..."


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## Tron Cruise (Nov 23, 2022)

Anyone ever met a nice architect?


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## CH1 (Nov 23, 2022)

Tron Cruise said:


> Anyone ever met a nice architect?


I've met several - but what is frightening and awe inspiring is the ones on Sky Arts "The Architecture of Museums"  etc.
Zaha Hadid was on yesterday. She did the curvy wavy thing at Baku

as well as the Evelyn Grace Academy at Loughborough Parl, Brixton.

She might have been OK. Smoked like a trooper, which was apparently her undoing. The man currebtly in charge at her old firm, Patrick Schumacher looks a right pretentious twat. I'm sure Gramsci posted up some stuff from him on a social housing thread. He doesn't believe in designing social housing apparently. I guess we should all go back to living in a shoe box in the middle of the road! This wiki quote "might" find favour with some on Urban?
"Schumacher's viewpoints are aligned with anarcho-capitalism, in favour of complete decentralisation and radical privatisation of all aspects of architecture, planning and development."


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## RoyReed (Nov 23, 2022)

Tron Cruise said:


> Anyone ever met a nice architect?


Yes, Neave Brown and Peter Foggo particularly.


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## teuchter (Nov 23, 2022)

Might be worth understanding that as far as Pop Brixton is concerned (at least as far as I can make out) Carl Turner's business went beyond the "architect" role and effectively became part developer / operator. They took on some form of financial stake in the project.

Although there are quite a few architectural practices that do this (Squire & Partners are another), the vast majority of architects don't (and can't). Mostly, their job is limited to the design. They don't own the site or buildings. They don't decide on the brief (although they might be able to influence it to some degree). They don't get involved in the commercial calculations of whether a certain development will be profitable or not, and they don't have any power to make those kinds of decisions. They don't decide what kind of use is going to go onto a certain site. All of those decisions are made by the site or building's owners and developers (within constraints determined by planning policy). They don't get any share of profits that the development then does or doesn't go on to make. They are paid a fee to do the design work, just like the builder is paid to do the building work.

Many architects, if you ask them, will see part of their role and professional responsibility as doing what they can to moderate the worst commercially-driven desires of developers. But in the end he who pays the piper calls the tune. Of course, if an architect believes that what they are being asked to design is not something they are comfortable with being involved with, they can decline or resign from the job... in which case the developer will simply find someone else.


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## Gramsci (Nov 23, 2022)

I don't think anyone here was having a go at architects in general.

The case in point was Turner and the way EBS said he treated them

No one forced Turner to put a bid in for the old car park site.

Any criticism of Pop meets with attitude that one is being negative in general.

Re reading Brixton Buzz article and what strikes me is the role the Council played. And continued to play.

That Pop is a wonderful project. Forget Grow Brixton.

Let's just move on and stop moaning.

In the end that line works. People get tired of the moaners. So perhaps the Council aren't that stupid.

It would really help if the Council admitted this was a cock up and learnt lessons from it.

They on the quiet might have. International house hasn't been the balls up that ended up as Pop. The Council did that on a different basis. And I don't hear anyone complaining about it.

On architects I would not have campaigned to get Brixton Rec listed if I thought all architects are bad


----------

