# C4 lapdancing club investigation: Dispatches on now



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

it really does seem to have gone a bit far. 5 establishments in one small town of 20,000 in Cornwall ( typical example)?

They are incredibly ubiquitous. I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.

I would prefer to see more regulation and tougher licences.

What do you think?


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## Gromit (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I would prefer to see more regulation and tougher licences.
> 
> What do you think?



To ensure the quality of the simulated lesbians?

Makes sound sense to me.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.

a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population
b) to have them further out of town
c) to strictly enforce the no-touching rule
d) to ban simulated sex shows ( or real sex shows)
e) to ensure both punters and dancers are not exploited. Codes of conduct should be adhered to - if the club turns a blind eye to touching, and full or simulated sex acts, and some dancers do it, the pressure is on all dancers to do it, and many do not want to.


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## marty21 (Oct 6, 2008)

it's hardly a dramatic expose really, dodgy going ons at lap dancing clubs


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## Geri (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it really does seem to have gone a bit far. 5 establishments in one small town of 20,000 in Cornwall ( typical example)?



Is it Newquay?


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Yeah I know and I bet 70% of the audience are watching it to perve over the nudey girls.

But it has gone a bit mad: of course it changes the dynamic of high streets and town centres after dark if there are 5 lap dancing places in a small town, all within walking distance and I don't think it works to anyone's benefit.


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## Gromit (Oct 6, 2008)

The no clients touching the girls?
or 
Girls not allowed to touch the customers?

The first is i'm given to understand enforced heavily by the clubs themselves.

As for the second i knew a stripper a long time ago and when they bought this rule in in Cardiff her taking plummeted and she started commuting to somewhere else where the rule wasn't in place. Didn't know her well, she was married to a pub mate.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Geri said:


> Is it Newquay?



 I think so. It's a surfing holiday stag Cornish town popular with stag weekends. I missed which town it was.


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## Epico (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I think so. It's a surfing holiday stag Cornish town popular with stag weekends. I missed which town it was.



I can't think it'd be anywhere other than Newquay. 
It's not really a typical small town.


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## Gromit (Oct 6, 2008)

They aren't catering for locals. But the tourist trade in Newquay.

20,000 locals but millions pass through every year.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it really does seem to have gone a bit far. 5 establishments in one small town of 20,000 in Cornwall ( typical example)?



Really. I mean, what next? Dogs and cats lying together as man and wife?

Plagues of toads?

Sounds like things are going to hell in a handbasket down there in Cornwall.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> . I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.



Why is that? I'm assuming that children can't access these places.

Why can't adults do what they want?


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## madzone (Oct 6, 2008)

Epico said:


> I can't think it'd be anywhere other than Newquay.
> It's not really a typical small town.


They've just opened one in Pz


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.
> 
> a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population
> b) to have them further out of town
> ...



Simulated sex shows. ie, they aren't actually having sex, and you want it banned. Should it be banned in films as well? To make a film, someone has to simulate the sex to make it 'look real'.

Or is your concern just that live humans are doing something vaguely sexual in British towns?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

madzone said:


> They've just opened one in Pz



If I were you, I'd lock the doors, and sleep sitting upright with a rolling pin handy.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Marius said:


> The no clients touching the girls?
> or
> Girls not allowed to touch the customers?
> 
> ...




It varies - most respectable places won't let punters touch girls. But many  places have girls touch themselves, simulating masturbation, touch each other, including full sexual encounters -  and in some places, it is not unusual to have dancers touching the customers, sitting on the customers, rubbing themselves on the punters etc...and my point is that isn;t dancing or public entertainment - it is a sex act.

If one place does touching/sex shows and one doesn't, or some girls do touching/sex acts and some don't, the money tends to go to the place with fewer rules; this causes pressure on the ones which are stricter.

Regulating it might help. I dunno. I know that the money is good, if you are good at it,  although you have to pay the house mother fee, all your kit - clothes, underwear, waxes, tanning beds, fake nails, hair pieces etc etc) - it still beats working at a bar for tips and earnings.

But whilst I know girls who enjoy the money, I don;t know anyone who likes it and likes being touched and likes simulating sex. They do it for more money. Ban straddling punters and faked lesbian oral sex and masturbation and I know several dancers who would be relieved.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Ban straddling punters and faked lesbian oral sex and masturbation and I know several dancers who would be relieved.



I'm sure. It's not like they can quit or anything.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Simulated sex shows. ie, they aren't actually having sex, and you want it banned. Should it be banned in films as well? To make a film, someone has to simulate the sex to make it 'look real'.
> 
> Or is your concern just that live humans are doing something vaguely sexual in British towns?



No Johnny,  and I suggest you read my posts again because it is all there for you to read for yourself in English


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)




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## madzone (Oct 6, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If I were you, I'd lock the doors, and sleep sitting upright with a rolling pin handy.


Don't need to. I've got a gun


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> No Johnny,  and I suggest you read my posts again because it is all there for you to read for yourself in English



It's there point by point.

You want to ban simulated sex shows.

Why is that?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

> a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population



Explain that one. It's totally beyond me.

We have clubs like this. Whatever happens, goes on behind closed doors. You can't actually see it from the High Street.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

I suggest you read my posts Johnny because it all there is all there in English.


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## Gromit (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I know several dancers who would be relieved.



Not the girl i knew. The takings would go down across the whole industry,
She was all about the money. She actually once said the legendary phrase "She wouldn't get out of bed for less than...".

But many no doubt.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

> to have them further out of town



Why, in god's name?

Once again, I'm assuming kids can't get in. Why not put restrictions on the signage etc?

Are the people hanging about these places any different or worse than the drunks spilling out of the ubiquitous pubs?


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## moomoo (Oct 6, 2008)

Apparently we've got a brothel _and_ a lap dancing club in our town but I couldn't tell you where either of them were.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

As you are not in the UK, can't watch the programme, are not familiar with the UK high streets, the feedback from residents, Johnny, I'm afraid this thread may be difficult for you to fully participate in.

It's about a show, on now, in a country you don't live in.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Maybe you could team up with the god botherers in educating people on the evils of fornication.


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## yardbird (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I suggest you read my posts Johnny because it all there is all there in English.



Sorry BK , but I have to PM  so as to avoid libel .


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As you are not in the UK, can't watch the programme, are not familiar with the UK high streets, the feedback from residents, Johnny, I'm afraid this thread may be difficult for you to fully participate in.
> 
> It's about a show, on now, in a country you don't live in.



People have sex, watch it etc here too.

Simple question: why are you so avid to control the lives of other adults? Applies in UK too, I think.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

As of 5 years ago lapdancing places are licensed as 'public entertainment'.

They are regularly breaching the licensing terms, and manyare questioning whether they have the right sort of licence. A show is on now, looking at the issue. of the type of licence they are supposed to be operating under and whether it is working. It looks like it isn't.

You can't see the show, which is on now, which this thread is discussing. 

So bit pointless you jumping in on the thread, IMO, JC2.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As you are not in the UK, can't watch the programme, are not familiar with the UK high streets, the feedback from residents, Johnny, I'm afraid this thread may be difficult for you to fully participate in.n.



While we're at it, check your resident feedback on penalties for drug use, or the death penalty.


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## Hi-ASL (Oct 6, 2008)

Yawn. How prudish.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As of 5 years ago lapdancing places are licensed as 'public entertainment'.
> 
> They are regularly breaching the licensing terms, and manyare questioning whether they have the right sort of licence. A show is on now, looking at the issue. of the type of licence they are supposed to be operating under and whether it is working. It looks like it isn't.
> 
> ...



I'm not questioning the show: I'm questioning your little personal morality list.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> People have sex, watch it etc here too.
> 
> Simple question: why are you so avid to control the lives of other adults? Applies in UK too, I think.




Oh do try and read the thread and understand the situation, WHICH IS ABOUT LICENSING otherwise it's just boring old trolling, isn't it Johnny?

*yawn*


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

I remember you starting a thread years ago on whether you should take pole-dancing lessons.

I'm not sure how relevant it is.. but it just made me chuckle. 

How did they go, by the way?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

You do recall that you gave your personal opinion?





> *I think *there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.
> 
> a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population
> b) to have them further out of town
> ...



See that bit at the beginning: 'I think'?

It's not from a show, unless you've lifted it.

I'm questioning you, you see.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

LICENSING ISSUE JOHNNY
not morality, do keep up, it's all there in easy to read words.

*yawn*


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh do try and read the thread and understand the situation, WHICH IS ABOUT LICENSING otherwise it's just boring old trolling, isn't it Johnny?
> 
> *yawn*



No, it's about my distaste for self important moralizing prigs.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> LICENSING ISSUE JOHNNY
> not morality, do keep up, it's all there ino easy to read words.
> 
> *yawn*



Why so much regulation if there's no moral issue behind it.

Why can't there be touching?

Is it your concern for public health? How about if they wear gloves?


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> I remember you starting a thread years ago on whether you should take pole-dancing lessons.
> 
> I'm not sure how relevant it is.. but it just made me chuckle.
> 
> How did they go, by the way?



I've been teaching pole dancing for 3 years


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No, it's about my distaste for self important moralizing prigs.




Hey, I have a distaste for fuckwitted trolls.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Hey, I have a distaste for fuckwitted trolls.



And as we know, anyone who disagrees with you is a fuckwit.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Nah, but you are IMO if you can't read the posts and go in for yet another boring round of trolling


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I've been teaching pole dancing for 3 years


 
Ah. Bringing down the competition.. I see...


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## madzone (Oct 6, 2008)

wiff waff


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Let me just pop JC2 on ignore.

Much better.


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## Kanda (Oct 6, 2008)

madzone said:


> They've just opened one in Pz



Cool, lets go when I come down, we can laugh at everyone


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## Gromit (Oct 6, 2008)

moomoo said:


> Apparently we've got a brothel _and_ a lap dancing club in our town but I couldn't tell you where either of them were.



Ask a taxi driver. They always know these things even if you don't.

I know of two brothels in Cardiff but only cause I went to a fab sandwich shop (ab fab to be precise, its name) that was next door to one and it made the papers (cause of a minister dying of a heart attack after going there, the brothel not the sandwich shop).

The other one made the papers and stuck out because the judge praised the owner on running a really safe and caring brothel... But i still got to convict  you.


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## madzone (Oct 6, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Cool, lets go when I come down, we can laugh at everyone


Can we take a flask and some sarnies?


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## Kanda (Oct 6, 2008)

madzone said:


> Can we take a flask and some sarnies?



Only if the flask contains Minestrone Cup-a-soup


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## phildwyer (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it really does seem to have gone a bit far. 5 establishments in one small town of 20,000 in Cornwall ( typical example)?
> 
> They are incredibly ubiquitous. I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.
> 
> ...



I think I don't understand your objections.  What is the problem, exactly?  I'm not being facetious, I just don't see why you'd be bothered.


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> I think I don't understand your objections. What is the problem, exactly? I'm not being facetious, I just don't see why you'd be bothered.


 
Especially given that you apparently teach these skills to others.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> I think I don't understand your objections.  What is the problem, exactly?  I'm not being facetious, I just don't see why you'd be bothered.



I said why on post 3, 6, 16, on page one.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Especially given that you apparently teach these skills to others.



Mmm, why could I be interested in and concerned about the happiness, non-pressurisation and protection of dancers, given that I teach dancing?


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## phildwyer (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I said why on post 3, 6, 16, on page one.



I did read them.  You say that it "changes the dynamic" of high streets after dark, and you worry that girls might be pressured into simulating sex acts when they don't want to.  I didn't think those could possibly be your only reasons, because they seem so insubstantial.  Maybe its just me.


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Mmm, why could I be interested in and concerned about the happiness, non-pressurisation and protection of dancers, given that I teach dancing?


 
Because you glamourise an industry which you then go on to appreciate the negative effects of. Which, if I recall, was what I said you'd do at the time.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 6, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> I did read them.  You say that it "changes the dynamic" of high streets after dark, and you worry that girls might be pressured into simulating sex acts when they don't want to.  I didn't think those could possibly be your only reasons, because they seem so insubstantial.  Maybe its just me.


Quite surprised that you think those as being insubstantial tbh. Do these kind of things not gwan in such establishments then?


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## madzone (Oct 6, 2008)

Kanda said:


> Only if the flask contains Minestrone Cup-a-soup


Minestrone cup a soup?

Salad Cream?

I can't be your friend


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Because you glamourise an industry which you then go on to appreciate the negative effects of. Which, if I recall, was what I said you'd do at the time.



Glamorise, lol, you'd not say that if you saw us all.
And if I changed the format of the all-women, no-audience dance classes to belly dancing classes would that be better, or worse, because women in harems have had a very shit time historically, pawed over, bought and sold and objectified by men ?


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Glamorise, lol, you'd not say that if you saw us all.


 
I used glamourise in a different context. 



> And if I changed the format of the all-women, no-audience dance classes to belly dancing classes would that be better, or worse, because women in harems have had a very shit time historically, pawed over, bought and sold and objectified by men ?


 
It would be better because there's currently no insidious media pressure also glamourising the belly dancing industry as a way for young women to make easy money.


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## Agent Sparrow (Oct 6, 2008)

Well, I always think there's two parts to this debate. The quality of life/level of exploitation of the dancers and the acceptance/normalisation of a sex industry with predominantly one gender (and the traditionally oppressed one) serving the other. The former can be helped with on site regulations and ensuring they are met, the latter I guess only by limiting the number of places allowed. But given the rise of mainstream soft porn and the lads mag, no doubt at least partly spurred by a feminist backlash, I'm not sure that is stoppable by simple measures any more, at least for the time being.


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## Crispy (Oct 6, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Quite surprised that you think those as being insubstantial tbh. Do these kind of things not gwan in such establishments then?


Indeed, I think these are substantial issues. Everyone has the right to a certain quality of life in the workplace. Worker's rights are important.

Let's go to an extreme and work backwards. Let's imagine that in order for strip club dancers to get a job, they have to be willing to piss and shit all over each other. I think we can agree that nobody wants to do that at work? This debate just moves the line closer. If the dancers are being pressured into doing demeaning work, then they have the right - as should all workers - to demand improvements in their working conditions. In this case, that could be by better enforcement of existing regulations, or creation of new ones.

Yes, as adults, people are free to offer money for whatever they want. And people should equally have the right to refuse that offer. In a world of finite jobs, the 'just quit' option does not work. It is a fallacious argument no matter what job or worker is being discussed.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> I did read them.  You say that it "changes the dynamic" of high streets after dark, and you worry that girls might be pressured into simulating sex acts when they don't want to.  I didn't think those could possibly be your only reasons, because they seem so insubstantial.  Maybe its just me.



Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent, neither of them wants to do it, they signed up for just dancing and chatting up the punters for tips,  but everyone does it, the club manager gets angry if you aren't working,  and not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the  babysitter and well, what can you do, when you've paid to work there?

How 'insubstantial' of them to feel uncomfortable, they should just give it up hie down to the call centre and stop whining about being pressurised by unscrupulous clubs raking it in and taking the piss out of the licensing laws.

Women workers getting the night bus home, past crowds of revved up horny drunk men, how 'insubstantial' of them to wish there weren't 3 stripjoints in 100 yards outside the 6th form college and the coach station.

It hasn't changed the atmosphere at the bus stop, oh no.


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Well, I always think there's two parts to this debate. The quality of life/level of exploitation of the dancers and the acceptance/normalisation of a sex industry with predominantly one gender (and the traditionally oppressed one) serving the other. The former can be helped with on site regulations and ensuring they are met, the latter I guess only by limiting the number of places allowed. But given the rise of mainstream soft porn and the lads mag, no doubt at least partly spurred by a feminist backlash, I'm not sure that that is stoppable by simple measures any more, at least for the time being.


 
It doesn't help if you think that the normalisation of a sex industry can only be averted by limiting the number of lapdance clubs. There's way more we can do than that.


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## Agent Sparrow (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> It doesn't help if you think that the normalisation of a sex industry can only be averted by limiting the number of lapdance clubs. There's way more we can do than that.



Which is why I said it wasn't simple.  Obviously it's not all the fault of lap dancing clubs, there's a whole host of complex factors, but they are part of the issue. As the female to male sex industry becomes more and more mainstream and normalised, lap dancing clubs will become more common, which makes the industry more mainstream etc. 

And as I said, for the time being, I'm not sure how the trend can be reversed, or even halted.


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent, neither of them wants to do it, they signed up for just dancing and chatting up the punters for tips, but everyone does it, the club manager gets angry if you aren't working, and not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the babysitter and well, what can you do, when you've paid to work there?.


 
On another thread isitme was moaning about being paid 250 for a full weeks work... I doubt he wanted to do that either.

Comparitively? Some would say that it's relatively easy money.


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## Crispy (Oct 6, 2008)

Would you suck cock 3 nights a week for £270?
(assuming you don't enjoy sucking cocK)


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Which is why I said it wasn't simple.  Obviously it's not all the fault of lap dancing clubs, there's a whole host of complex factors, but they are part of the issue. As the female to male sex industry becomes more and more mainstream and normalised, lap dancing clubs will become more common, which makes the industry more mainstream etc.
> 
> And as I said, for the time being, I'm not sure how the trend can be reversed, or even halted.


 
People don't have to buy into it. Something gets normalised because people allow it to be. Which is.. in a way.. why I took badger kitten to task over her pole-dancing lessons for bored housewives - this is exactly the kind of thing that normalises clubs like this.


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## Agent Sparrow (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> People don't have to buy into it.



But the more it is in everyone's faces the more people do buy into it. Familiarity more often than not leads to acceptance. As a species, humans are quite easily manipulated. Look at the power of advertising.

Things that are considered OK or the norm will increasingly become the norm. Look at how attitudes change over time.


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Would you suck cock 3 nights a week for £270?
> (assuming you don't enjoy sucking cocK)


 
Simulated cock sucking? Depends how much I needed the cash, to be fair.


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## Jazzz (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent...  not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the  babysitter



So you are saying that 5 strip joints is doing a great service to single mums and struggling students financially for this town? hurrah!

I really don't doubt that some aspects of the job are unpleasant but a friend of mine recently said this to me when I started moaning about my current job.

_"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"_


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## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> But the more it is in everyone's faces the more people do buy into it. Familiarity more often than not leads to acceptance. As a species, humans are quite easily manipulated. Look at the power of advertising.
> 
> Things that are considered OK or the norm will increasingly become the norm. Look at how attitudes change over time.


 
Did you see my edit? We allow ourselves to be easily manipulated.

Monkey see, monkey do.


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## Crispy (Oct 6, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> _"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"_



Yeah, so be happy eating shit, cos there's not a damn thing you can do about it. By the way, shit quotas go up next month. Any complaints? No? Good.


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## zenie (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> People don't have to buy into it. Something gets normalised because people allow it to be. Which is.. in a way.. why I took badger kitten to task over her pole-dancing lessons for bored housewives - *this is exactly the kind of thing that normalises clubs like this.*



And I'm inclined to agree.

I don't really get they *why* in all of this, because the real reason behind the thread seems to be totally hypocritical 

I missed the programme, were the girls who did this all willing to be doing the sex acts, or was it forced?


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## two sheds (Oct 6, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I really don't doubt that some aspects of the job are unpleasant but a friend of mine recently said this to me when I started moaning about my current job.
> 
> _"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"_



True enough, lets have them kiddies going up chimneys again what they complaining about, bloody whingers.


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## Agent Sparrow (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Did you see my edit? We allow ourselves to be easily manipulated.
> 
> Monkey see, monkey do.



That's not much of a consolation when the manipulation is of a huge proportion of society, which your individual views have little to do with.


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## phildwyer (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent, neither of them wants to do it, they signed up for just dancing and chatting up the punters for tips,  but everyone does it, the club manager gets angry if you aren't working,  and not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the  babysitter and well, what can you do, when you've paid to work there?



I don't know, it doesn't sound like the worst job in the world.  Again, maybe its just me.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> On another thread isitme was moaning about being paid 250 for a full weeks work... I doubt he wanted to do that either.
> 
> Comparitively? Some would say that it's relatively easy money.



see Crispy's point about workers rights, which he makes better than me.

lapdancing is a choice.

You sign up to take your clothes off and listen to men's boring conversations whilst getting them to hand over £20 as often as possible.

Clubs in the UK are regulated and you shouldn't have to lick muff, grind cock, or shove your fingers up your own or anyone else's vagina.

The clubs could do with better regulation. It's a feebly-licenced money-grabbing free-for-all right now, clubs springing up on 'public ents' licences but regularly going way over the boundaries; not great for dancers, residents...and I've deliberately left the morality out of it. Nor gone into who I teach, when, how and why, since it isn't really anything to do with this thread. I don't actually know any 'bored housewives' or any 'housewives' for that matter, however.


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## zenie (Oct 6, 2008)

I've got it on in the background, do programmes like this really help the women that suffer in all of this? Those two girls will be sacked now.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> That's not much of a consolation when the manipulation is of a huge proportion of society, which your individual views have little to do with.


 
It's not meant to be a consolation. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in complaining piously about something that most people go some way toward exascerbating.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> So you are saying that 5 strip joints is doing a great service to single mums and struggling students financially for this town? hurrah!
> 
> I really don't doubt that some aspects of the job are unpleasant but a friend of mine recently said this to me when I started moaning about my current job.
> 
> _"jazzzy, haven't you noticed yet that all jobs have vast amounts of crap in them?"_



No, the exact opposite, as you would see if you read what i actually wrote


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> see Crispy's point about workers rights, which he makes better than me.
> 
> lapdancing is a choice.
> 
> ...


 
Unless you want to.



> The clubs could do with better regulation. It's a feebly-licenced money-grabbing free-for-all right now, clubs springing up on 'public ents' licences but regularly going way over the boundaries; not great for dancers, residents...and I've deliberately left the morality out of it. Nor gone into who I teach, when, how and why, since it isn't really anything to do with this thread. I don't actually know any 'bored housewives' or any 'housewives' for that matter, however.


 
It is, however, relevent to your opinion.

Yes, the clubs could do with better regulation... but then again.. perhaps more importantly we could do without glamourising the whole industry so that stupid young girls don't think it's ok to take their clothes off and demand £20 from stupid men.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> It's not meant to be a consolation. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in complaining piously about something that most people go some way toward exascerbating.



Erm, why is it hypocrisy if you're not exacerbating it? And there's plenty of other people who are unhappy about the trend too. There's just enough people supporting the trend to lead to it's growth atm (leading to yet more support as people start considering it normal).


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> perhaps more importantly we could do without glamourising the whole industry so that stupid young girls don't think it's ok to take their clothes off and demand £20 from stupid men.



And this is a good point.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 6, 2008)

Sorry, I hope this doesn't sound as if I'm making light of the subject but if you were working in a lapdancing club, 3 nights a week for £270 odd - would you be able to claim tax credits?

I think I'm trying to ask whether it's actually a legit way of earning money.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Erm, why is it hypocrisy if you're not exacerbating it?


 
I don't think it is hypocrisy if you don't contribute toward noirmalising it.. it's just that most people do in some way or other.



> And there's plenty of other people who are unhappy about the trend too. There's just enough people supporting the trend to lead to it's growth atm (leading to yet more support as people start considering it normal).


 
There aren't enough people supporting the trend.. that why prices go down and conditions get worse. It's an artificial trend created by the media, club-owners, foreign labour and silly people buying onto the whole 'pole-dancing is sexy and good for you' thing.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

There is nothing prudish, moralistic, hypocritical about my position, despite fervent attemots of people to make it so when they appear not to have read what I wrote.

In an ideal world there wouldn't be a need for the clubs, but I'm being pragmatic. I do think the licences should be tougher, and if you are working at a club which has a licence based on no touching, no sex acts, no prostitution, you should be able to be confident that the terms of the licence are upheld. They are not being upheld.

This pisses off residents and makes it harder for dancers because of pressure and expectations. There are also, IMO, too many clubs in small towns on the high street raking it in and it does change the dynamic and residents aren't happy, which is also fair enough IMO.

So in the absence of a perfect world, I call for a better regulated system, because the rights of men to watch 2 girls faking pleasure by licking each other for £50 does not trump the right of dancers to just dance, no touching, no sex acts, and residents to feel comfortable walking through the town. square at night


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 6, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Yeah, so be happy eating shit, cos there's not a damn thing you can do about it. By the way, shit quotas go up next month. Any complaints? No? Good.



Well sure there are malaises in society leading to bad working conditions - and the point is taken there. But then why for one's ire single out an industry which appears to be financial godsend for the girls concerned? Seems the wrong target IMO.

I mean, I have a part-time bar job where I might have to work until 5am. Duties include cleaning toilets, and having to kick out crazy randoms who can be quite threatening. Recently I've had no break at all in eight-hour shifts. And I'm getting close to the minimum wage for all this. I'm sure this is also the case for countless other bar staff. Luckily I am doing this actually because I enjoy it and not out of total necessity - that doesn't mean that there isn't an awful load of crap there


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 6, 2008)

phildwyer;8142680]I don't know said:


> It's not meant to be a consolation. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in complaining piously about something that most people go some way toward exascerbating.


Pious? Hypocrisy? sounds like the fecking bible......


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 6, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Maybe you've never had someone trying to buy your bum?



I bloody have.  Can't exactly say it left me scarred for life.  And for the third time in as many posts, maybe its just me.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Unless you want to.



No. Like I said this is a fallacious argument. There may be many examples  where quitting is easy and another job easy to find. There are many counter examples. This applies to every single job. The ultimate solution to shitty working conditions is not quitting that job, because someone else will have to do it. The ultimate solution is to improve working conditions. This argument applies to all jobs, everywhere.

ETA: Jazzz provides a good example. Bar work is pretty grim in cases, but it could be a lot worse. It is prevented from being a lot worse by certain laws that are, for the most part, enforced.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> No, the exact opposite, as you would see if you read what i actually wrote



But those were the facts of your argument

1) many single parents and students struggle financially
2) it is rare to find work that will bring in sustantial wages for a few night's work, while children are asleep - lapdancing clubs do this


therefore more clubs = more help for the girls that work there


----------



## 8ball (Oct 6, 2008)

I never really 'got' the lapdancing thing.  Always seemed like a stop-off on the road to other things in a venue where other things aren't allowed.  Makes no sense.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 6, 2008)

Oh just ignore me.  I don't care.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

No Jazz, no.

That is not what i said nor what I meant and i can't keep writing what i said and what I  meant over and over and over and over, 

well, I could but it seems incredibly pointless


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

moomoo said:


> Oh just ignore me.  I don't care.



Sorry. You are supposed to declare it all as income, do VAT, get an accountant etc, not sure how it works with tax credits


----------



## Epico (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Sorry. You are supposed to declare it all as income, do VAT, get an accountant etc, not sure how it works with tax credits



The same, it's taxable income.

Why have you not been declaring it moomoo 

Bad girl!


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> There is nothing prudish, moralistic, hypocritical about my position, despite fervent attemots of people to make it so when they appear not to have read what I wrote.


 
Yes, there is. Although self-awareness to see as much has neve really been your strongest point. 



> In an ideal world there wouldn't be a need for the clubs, but I'm being pragmatic. I do think the licences should be tougher, and if you are working at a club which has a licence based on no touching, no sex acts, no prostitution, you should be able to be confident that the terms of the licence are upheld. They are not being upheld.
> 
> This pisses off residents and makes it harder for dancers because of pressure and expectations. There are also, IMO, too many clubs in small towns on the high street raking it in and it does change the dynamic and residents aren't happy, which is also fair enough IMO.


 
Perhaps this is what you should be teaching the girls... instead of how to rub themselves up against a pole.



> So in the absence of a perfect world, I call for a better regulated system, because the rights of men to watch 2 girls faking pleasure by licking each other for £50 does not trump the right of dancers to just dance, no touching, no sex acts, and residents to feel comfortable walking through the town. square at night


 
Perhaps they should take up a different form of dancing that doesn't involve sex.

It's the fact that you keep idealising pole-dancers as if it was the same as any other kind of 'dancing'. This is that rubbish normalisation that I'm on about.

Pole dancing ain't really dancing. No matter how you pretty it up.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> No Jazz, no.
> 
> That is not what i said nor what I meant and i can't keep writing what i said and what I  meant over and over and over and over,
> 
> well, I could but it seems incredibly pointless



I'm well aware of what you meant, and yes it would be pointless


----------



## moomoo (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Sorry. You are supposed to declare it all as income, do VAT, get an accountant etc, not sure how it works with tax credits



Thanks. 



Epico said:


> The same, it's taxable income.
> 
> Why have you not been declaring it moomoo
> 
> Bad girl!



Lol!  If I did lapdancing I'd end up paying compensation to the poor sod whose legs I'd crushed.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 6, 2008)

I am a nimby ..

The whole thing just seems sleazy to me .. 

I would not live on a street where there was a lapdancing club and if someone tried to put one near me I would resist.


----------



## yardbird (Oct 6, 2008)

moomoo said:


> Oh just ignore me.  I don't care.



Slight derail.

Nobody ignores you moomoo.!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 6, 2008)

night. straight up time4bedbizniz.com


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Crispy said:


> No. Like I said this is a fallacious argument. There may be many examples where quitting is easy and another job easy to find. There are many counter examples. This applies to every single job. The ultimate solution to shitty working conditions is not quitting that job, because someone else will have to do it. The ultimate solution is to improve working conditions. This argument applies to all jobs, everywhere.
> 
> ETA: Jazzz provides a good example. Bar work is pretty grim in cases, but it could be a lot worse. It is prevented from being a lot worse by certain laws that are, for the most part, enforced.


 
No, it's not fallacious at all. It's very difficult to make someone do something they don't want to. They might 'prefer not to'.. but if they don't want to.. in general and in accordance with the laws of this country they don't have to. Telling people any different is removing that power from them.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> But those were the facts of your argument
> 
> 1) many single parents and students struggle financially
> 2) it is rare to find work that will bring in sustantial wages for a few night's work, while children are asleep - lapdancing clubs do this
> ...



Look. It is good money. Girls do make a choice to work there. I'd have done it myself 17 years ago. Instead of bar and waitress work - if it was just table dancing and pole work.

When working at a lap dancing club you should not have to lick muff. After all, the licence is for public entertainment dancing with no touching.You buy a selection of nylon frocks, get a spray tan, a brazilian, you pay the house mum £50 to work that night,  you talk to punters, listen to their crap and do dances in a G string then whip it off for the last 30 seconds.

You don't sign up for grinding, licking and fingerfucking.

Better regulation, and licence planning should take into account the needs of residents - and dancers - and punters for that matter. And that includes where the clubs are sited - it does change the atmosphere if the town square has a 4 laps dancing joints in 150 yards.

It's all gone a bit out of control  is my point.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Look. It is good money. Girls do make a choice to work there. I'd have done it myself 17 years ago. Instead of bar and waitress work - if it was just table dancing and pole work.
> 
> When working at a lap dancing club you should not have to lick muff. After all, the licence is for public entertainment dancing with no touching.You buy a selection of nylon frocks, get a spray tan, a brazilian, you pay the house mum £50 to work that night, you talk to punters, listen to their crap and do dances in a G string then whip it off for the last 30 seconds.


 
You really do think men are stupid and to be exploited, don't you?


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 6, 2008)

I totally accept the point about proper regulations and their enforcement. That needs to be kept under control. I'm not so sure about the numbers point, as it really is great money for girls who might otherwise really struggle

Recently there was an application for a bar near me to become a lapdancing - it was turned down. I wouldn't have had any problem with it. 

I'll add I have never been inside one


----------



## two sheds (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> You really do think men are stupid and to be exploited, don't you?



Well we do bloody good impressions of it sometimes


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Yes, there is. Although self-awareness to see as much has neve really been your strongest point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey. Talk about airing your prejudices. 

I'll keep teaching women that no matter what size or shape they are, if they are old or young, have pert tits or a masectomy, are hairy or shaved, whether their belly is stretched post-pregnancy or if their ex lover told them they were boring, they are gorgeous dancers, who deserve to love themselves dancing and in my class when they shimmy, kick or can-can, belly dance or do handstands, or wiggle their butts on a pole, or hang upside down with their hair flying,  then I'll cheer them, and the other women will cheer them as the gorgeous sexual playful beauties they are and I'll watch them walk out the door smiling and two inches taller. And I'll feel fucking proud. 

And if they come to my class because they want to learn pole tricks for the strip club to pay for their student fees, I'll do my damndest to build up their self confidence so they feel like professional performers, who can say no, rather than pieces of meat. 

But I digress.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> You really do think men are stupid and to be exploited, don't you?




No dearie.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Hey. Talk about airing your prejudices.
> 
> I'll keep teaching women that no matter what size or shape they are, if they are old or young, have pert tits or a masectomy, are hairy or shaved, whether their belly is stretched post-pregnancy or if their ex lover told them they were boring, they are gorgeous dancers, who deserve to love themselves dancing and in my class when they shimmy, kick or can-can, belly dance or do handstands, or wiggle their butts on a pole, or hang upside down with their hair flying, then I'll cheer them, and the other women will cheer them as the gorgeous sexual playful beauties they are and I'll watch them walk out the door smiling and two inches taller. And I'll feel fucking proud.
> 
> ...


 
Yep. No matter how pretty you word it up.. pole dancing ain't dancing.


They come into your _pole-dancing_ lessons as muppets and they don't leave as Dame Margot Fonteyn.

By the way.. is that what you put on the advertising blurb for your lessons?


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> No dearie.


 
Then stop behaving as if all you have to do is slide down a pole and whip your knickers off for 30 seconds and you can earn a fortune!


----------



## Maltin (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> You don't sign up for grinding, licking and fingerfucking.


Despite what the programme tries to claim, this isn't what we saw (apart from grinding) and, although I accept that some may do these things, I imagine this isn't what the majority are prepared to do. 

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the workers talk up what they are prepared to do to get someone to pay extra money and then don't do it. Especially the girls where they said that if he gave them £300 they would go back to his hotel. So, the plan was, he gives them £300 in the club, leaves the club, and they'll meet him outside. I reckon he could have been waiting outside a long time...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Yes, Kismet, and of course you know, having actually attended a pole dancing course. LOL. 

You come in, you wear sweats, you work out for 45 minutes, you dance, you climb up and down a pole, you learn a routine, you get hot and sweaty - it's a dance class. Several urbanites have been to my classes, they know. And at leats 2 of them call themselves feminists.

Belly dancing, can-can dancing, pole dancing, ballet, it's all dancing. And at various points in history, people have viewed the dancers as little better than whores.

The issue is working conditions, societal expectations, and crucially, whether men are paying cash to watch bare crotches close up.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Yep. No matter how pretty you word it up.. pole dancing ain't dancing.
> 
> 
> They come into your _pole-dancing_ lessons as muppets and they don't leave as Dame Margot Fonteyn.
> ...



Boy, you seem very contemptous and dismissive of women to me. Quite the prejudiced self-righteous poster today.

With very little to back up her position.

Good luck to you and your moral certanties.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Maltin said:


> Despite what the programme tries to claim, this isn't what we saw (apart from grinding) and, although I accept that some may do these things, I imagine this isn't what the majority are prepared to do.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if some of the workers talk up what they are prepared to do to get someone to pay extra money and then don't do it. Especially the girls where they said that if he gave them £300 they would go back to his hotel. So, the plan was, he gives them £300 in the club, leaves the club, and they'll meet him outside. I reckon he could have been waiting outside a long time...



We had a full lesbian  sex show on the programme, which the club then agreed was out of order and said it would ''investigate''


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Yes, Kismet, and of course you know, having actually attended a pole dancing course. LOL.
> 
> You come in, you wear sweats, you work out for 45 minutes, you dance, you climb up and down a pole, you learn a routine, you get hot and sweaty - it's a dance class. Several urbanites have been to my classes, they know. And at leats 2 of them call themselves feminists.


 
It's _pole-dancing_... it's done for sexdual gratification. It ain't dancing.

Not saying it's not difficult.. but if you can't understand the point about normalisation when you try and compare it to ballet or even tap-dancing! Even morris dancers have to train for longer than your 'dancers', I bet!



> Belly dancing, can-can dancing, pole dancing, ballet, it's all dancing. And at various points in history, people have viewed the dancers as little better than whores.
> 
> The issue is working conditions, societal expectations, and crucially, whether men are paying cash to watch bare crotches close up.


 
That's your issue. And that's why I think it's hypocritical.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Boy, you seem very contemptous and dismissive of women to me. Quite the prejudiced self-righteous poster today.


 
No, hon. I just think that sometimes you're full of shit.

The standard Badger Kitten defence.. accuse anyone who argues with her of being 'dismissive of women'. When in fact they're just being dismissive of _you_

If you had anything about you, girl, you'd realise the truth is the exact opposite.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 6, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> It's _pole-dancing_... it's done for sexdual gratification. It ain't dancing.



it is indeed a shame that men might go into lapdancing clubs with this attitude


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

You're wrong, Kismet  and your''e posting from a position of entrenched prejudiced ignorance.

You really do not know and you really are projecting your prejudices on me and the reason I am getting arsey with you is because you have actually been quite rude, patronising and tiresome and judgemental and you are not remotely receptive to the suggstion that you might be in this case, wrong. You've been haughty, rude and closed-minded and I'm not indulging you in it.  

Anyway, I'll leave you to stew in your own self-righteousness, because I can see that I'm wasting my time. I started a thread about the current situation with regard to licensing lap dancing establishments, town planning, working conditions, and of you want to have a little pursed-lips personal attack on me because I run a particular kind of dance class and conflate that with your own steamingly-apparent prejudices then whatever


----------



## Maltin (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> We had a full lesbian sex show on the programme


I didn't see anything like that. Doubt the TV regulators would be too impressed if that was shown. And although 2 girls may have suggested they would do that (in reality I doubt it was), I doubt it is indicative of the majority of girls.


----------



## Maltin (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I started a thread about the current situation with regard to licensing lap dancing establishments, town planning, working conditions


I think you started a thread about a prejudiced TV show rather than doing your own research into the matter.


----------



## pk (Oct 6, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm sure. It's not like they can quit or anything.



Whoa... like it's not like prostitutes can just quit their day job?

This ain't Vancouver. Remember that.


----------



## XR75 (Oct 6, 2008)

Sounds like the another round of double standards.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 6, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> You're wrong, Kismet and your''e posting from a position of entrenched prejudiced ignorance.
> 
> You really do not know and you really are projecting your prejudices on me and the reason I am getting arsey with you is because you have actually been quite rude, patronising and tiresome and judgemental and you are not remotely receptive to the suggstion that you might be in this case, wrong. You've been haughty, rude and closed-minded and I'm not indulging you in it.
> 
> Anyway, I'll leave you to stew in your own self-righteousness, because I can see that I'm wasting my time. I started a thread about the current situation with regard to licensing lap dancing establishments, town planning, working conditions, and of you want to have a little pursed-lips personal attack on me because I run a particular kind of dance class and conflate that with your own steamingly-apparent prejudices then whatever


 
What am I wrong about? That by perpetuating part of the sex-based industry you're actually contributing to the problem? That's all I'm trying to do, really.. get you to see that there is more to running your classes than just dancing.. no matter what you may think.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 6, 2008)

Maltin said:


> I think you started a thread about a prejudiced TV show rather than doing your own research into the matter.



And what would  constitute sufficient research to have the right to start a thread about it on urban?

Please do clarify. 
3 years of talking to people in the industry? 13? 30? 
Writing a book on it?
Being Peter Stringfellow?


I think we should be told the rules.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 7, 2008)

Anyway.. I couldn't make you see it back then.. and I doubt I will now. G'night.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *We had *a full lesbian  sex show on the programme, which the club then agreed was out of order and said it would ''investigate''




'We had'?

Were you involved in the making of the show or something?  Or am I misreading your turn of phrase?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> What am I wrong about? That by perpetuating part of the sex-based industry you're actually contributing to the problem? That's all I'm trying to do, really.. get you to see that there is more to running your classes than just dancing.. no matter what you may think.




Gosh Kismet I'm a 37 year old feminist and until I posted on this forum and read your incredible contributions it had literally never occurred to me for one minute to consider what the fuck the women in my classes and I were up to every Tuesday and whether we could live with ourselves. you know, we were all just so...unconscious. Muppets, like you said. It just never occurred to us to even discuss it.

Boy am  I glad you posted. 

It feels like I am having some kind of epiphany here. 

Christ, I would never, ever have thought about it despite having been actively passionate about women's rights, dancing and you know....stuff...for the last 20 years.

Thanks honey. Really.]
You're amazing.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

moomoo said:


> 'We had'?
> 
> Were you involved in the making of the show or something?  Or am I misreading your turn of phrase?




no, sorry, turn of phrase


----------



## moomoo (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> no, sorry, turn of phrase



Ah, ok.  Thanks.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> No. Like I said this is a fallacious argument. There may be many examples  where quitting is easy and another job easy to find. There are many counter examples. This applies to every single job. The ultimate solution to shitty working conditions is not quitting that job, because someone else will have to do it. The ultimate solution is to improve working conditions. This argument applies to all jobs, everywhere.



So on the one hand it is being argued that it may not be easy for the girls to find other jobs and on the other it's being argued that there's too many strip clubs and some should be shut down?

Do we really have their interests at heart here?

(Not necessarily you, I'm taking BK's points on board too here)


----------



## pk (Oct 7, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> I took badger kitten to task over her pole-dancing lessons for bored housewives - this is exactly the kind of thing that normalises clubs like this.



I cannot disagree more. This kind of thinking isn't far from the "she's wearing a short skirt so she must be desperate for sex" kind of attitude.

If you think of the whole pole dancing thing as a gym class, a workout, which it is considering the many sets of normally unused upside-down muscle groups you have to rely on to do it well, it has nothing to do with men as an athletic discipline.

What women get up to in the pursuit of health and fun with their mates is a far removed from what some fat cunt sales man from Wigan wants to bribe the club boss to shag the barmaid.

I think the poledancing is actually a powerful feminist activity, from the point of view of being able to dropkick a potential rapist's nuts ten yards away whilst spinning upside-down on a scaffold pole.

Women who are physically fit hold all the cards, lazy complacent idiot men must be eradicated. Scissor-kicks for sisterhood!

In addition, I think a lot of women would be quite proud right now, as a traditionally male enclave - the international banking system - has been caught with it's trousers down and all the men have predictably been too greedy and screwed it all up and are blaming each other for the mess instead of actually shutting the fuck up and just cleaning it up a bit.

What with relatively new ideas on flexible working, technological advances enabling detailed work to be done at home, women don't even need to rely on men for an earning anymore.

Men are rapidly becoming redundant. Which is OK if you're a bloke who just gets on with it and can buy nice things for women, but not so good for the fat cunt sales man from Wigan.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Single parent Natalie pretending to enjoy licking the muff of undergrad Susi;, both of them need to pay the rent, neither of them wants to do it, they signed up for just dancing and chatting up the punters for tips,  but everyone does it, the club manager gets angry if you aren't working,  and not many jobs will let you pull in £270 for 3 nights work that fit with mum sleeping over as the  babysitter and well, what can you do, when you've paid to work there?



One argument formed.



> How 'insubstantial' of them to feel uncomfortable, they should just give it up hie down to the call centre and stop whining about being pressurised by unscrupulous clubs raking it in and taking the piss out of the licensing laws.



Doesn't seem to sit well with:



Badger Kitten said:


> I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.
> 
> a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population



Kiss goodbye to your jobs, girls.



> b) to have them further out of town



More hassle for the single parent and undergrad to travel to/from.

I agree with all the other stuff to do with upholding the no touching rule etc etc.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 7, 2008)

pk said:


> I think the poledancing is actually a powerful feminist activity . . .


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

It's great knowing that as far as me, personally goes  -  I already answered this point and so repeating what i wrote is pointless, after all, if people didn't bother reading it the first time around what's the point of posting it again?

This learning has really saved me time on the internet


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

1.Lap dancing should be better regulated so no-touching, so sex acts etc is enforced as per the granted public entertainment licence conditions. If it gets slack, the pressure is there for dancers to overstep the boundaries and that's not great  - yes, even nude dancers have the right to protection from a money-driven free for all. Dancers have a hard time saying no if some girls will and some clubs wink at breaking rules - so if the rules are enforced, it's better for all. Because this is all about money, and everyone in lap dancing clubs is only doing it for money.

( as an aside: it used to be illegal to move whilst nude - dancers had to pose in a tableau. Then it was illegal to dance fully nude- but once one club offered fully nude, they all had to do it. So if it gets to be expected that you will get grinding and pussy-stroking, then everyone has to do it. That is tough on the dancers. Dancers dance for money, and will do what they have to get tips. Regulate it, and you help to protect them - it is much easier to enforce a no-touching strict rule than a a mash-up of most things goes with most girls and it's up to the dancer to stop it in the VIP room.)


2. It's also a good idea from a town-planning point of view not to have all the strip joints in the town centre - it really does change the atmosphere for residents and a big majority say they don't like it.

3. I don't think either of the above points are unreasonable. To say that by querying whether Ipswich town centre should be turned into one giant blue triangle of nude clubs I am denying women the opportunity to make money isn't the case. Unregulated free for alls don't work - some regulation is right and normal, because we all have to share the same space and the right of the student to earn money lapdancing and the right of the single mother to earn money lapdancing needs to be balanced with fair workers' rights and the right of residents to have a town centre that has a mix of clubs and cafes and bars and is not a giant lapdancing complex which makes more money than the kid's shoe shop, the veggie cafe, the cinema and the pub.It's not all about £££, it's about balance. The strip bars can move out. There are always bus routes to industrial parks.

4. I mentioned the fact that I teach a pole dance exercise class because JC2 was trying to portray me as some kind of Moral Majority Crusader, entirely missing my point. FWIW it's just a fucking dance class, where as an added extra  we get to spin on poles and go upsidedown which is a blast. It is about as similar to stripping as belly dancing classes are to being a sex slave in a harem. As a bonus, it is great to see women being playful and secure in their sexuality with each other, with no men in sight - it's fun and it is quite moving at times to see women cheering each other on for being divas and showgirls in a toally safe environment. People who purse their lips and think we are stupid are actually being quite ignorant - it's a dance class, it's fun, it's by us for us and save the rolling eyes for more important causes.  ( 'stupid...muppets...bored housewives...'that comes over as plain contempt to me)

5. I think I already said all these points already. I don't want to say them again. I can't stop people coming at this with their own baggage. I think I'm being reasonable and if people want to go off at tangents, then fine.

FWIW I think lapdancing is a different thing as far as licensing goes to 'public entertinment' and when handing out licences, it would help if they factored it in -opening 3 lapdancing clubs in a small area does change the area, in a way that opening a comedy club, jazz club and country and western line dancing venue close to each other in Ipswich town square doesn't.

The rest is just people going off on their own hobbyhorses


----------



## pengaleng (Oct 7, 2008)

thread is totally lolz 

*facepalm*


----------



## Jambooboo (Oct 7, 2008)

If I were a lass I'd go into lapdancing in a shot - I'm guessing a lapdancer in a decent joint (ie Spearmint Rhino) makes more a year than a doctor.

And though I've only been in a few lapdancing clubs the 'no-touching' rule isn't one to be ignored - cameras all over the place and brick-shit-house bouncers only seconds away. And Having spoken to a few lapdancers/bouncers that worked there, safety was paramount; work in a bar and finish at 3am and you're left to your own devices re: making your own way home - work in a lapdancing joint and they'll pay for your taxi home.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Let me just pop JC2 on ignore.
> 
> Much better.



Good plan: nobody much likes disagreement.

She says it's all about the tv show, but if you look at her first two posts - quelle suprise! - it barely gets a mention.

It's all about Badger Kitten's opinion, which is what I responded to. Oh well, life will be simpler for her when she can hear only the sound of her own voice.



> C4 lapdancing club investigation: Dispatches on now
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...






> #3       06-10-2008, 13:25
> Badger Kitten
> after a quiet life   Join Date: Feb 2005
> Location: never you mind
> ...



Maybe without me in the discussion, she'll get more material for whatever article she wants to write.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I said why on post 3, 6, 16, on page one.



I wonder how the relocation of venues further out of town will help to prevent any exploitation?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

pk said:


> I think the poledancing is actually a powerful feminist activity



True enough, although personally I think cock-sucking is even more of a radical statement.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Everyone has the right to a certain quality of life in the workplace. Worker's rights are important.
> .




Most people examine the job description, and refrain from taking the job, or staying with the job, if it includes things they don't want to do. For example: considering the job description of a used car salesman, I'll pass on that occupation.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Would you suck cock 3 nights a week for £270?
> (assuming you don't enjoy sucking cocK)



No. I wouldn't flip burgers either, and wild horses couldn't make me be a computer tech support person for so little as 270 pounds per week. But as they say, chacun a son gout.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

I just thought of something. You gleefully joined into the general hilarity directed toward me on that Sept 11 thread. It never crossed my mind to put you on ignore.

But here you are, five negative posts from me, and you're all hissy, and I'm on ignore.

Poor dear can dish it out, but she can't take it. Aww.


----------



## snadge (Oct 7, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> it is indeed a shame that men might go into lapdancing clubs with this attitude



*facepalms self*


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> True enough, although personally I think cock-sucking is even more of a radical statement.



Plus, one shouldn't overlook the studies showing that the internalization of semen actually makes women feel better from a hormonal standpoint.

Maybe allowing or promoting this sort of activity at work should be viewed as a job benefit.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I just thought of something. You gleefully joined into the general hilarity directed toward me on that Sept 11 thread. It never crossed my mind to put you on ignore.
> 
> But here you are, five negative posts from me, and you're all hissy, and I'm on ignore.
> 
> Poor dear can dish it out, but she can't take it. Aww.



I've got nothing against Badger Kitten myself, but like I said to you before Johnny, these boards are a great test of people's characters.  So may I just take this opportunity to point out that Marius is a truly despicable little coward?  I thank you.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Plus, one shouldn't overlook the studies showing that the internalization of semen actually makes women feel better from a hormonal standpoint.



In fact doctors and scientists agree that a woman's financial status, professional success and life expectancy are directly correlated to her willingness to swallow.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Personally, I think it all begins with the demon rum. Men get in their cups, and before you know it, they're wanting fornication and lewdness of all description.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

=


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> There are always bus routes to industrial parks.



Again I'd suggest that you're arguing a double-standard here. On the one hand You're arguing that these wretched girls are forced to touch these evil leery well-heeled men. And on the other you don't seem to give two fucks that them waiting for a bus home after midnight in some desolate industrial park may make them more vulnerable to being attacked.

I don't think you have their interests at heart. It's something that offends your sensibilities.


----------



## madzone (Oct 7, 2008)

moomoo said:


> Oh just ignore me. I don't care.


My mates who are actors get Tax Credits and that's proper whoring - the lapdancers could probably claim as dancers.


----------



## Balbi (Oct 7, 2008)

My mate did pole dancing at a gentlemans club for a year or two, made decent money and had a good laugh doing it and all. She doesn't any more, because she's moved abroad. 



She was well fit  Calf muscles like shrink wrapped sides of beef!


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

I have noticed shitloads of lapdancing clubs appearing in Newcastle as well. I don't really object to them if they treat their employees ok, I do find it quite sad that as soon as it's legalised it becomes a massive industry, but that's people for you innit

This thread is all over the shop tho, I didn't see the program but if the girls are being ripped off or made to do things they didn't sign up for then that's a problem, but the whole debate seems to be about wether lapdancing is right or wrong


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> This thread is all over the shop tho, I didn't see the program but if the girls are being ripped off or made to do things they didn't sign up for then that's a problem, but the whole debate seems to be about wether lapdancing is right or wrong


innit, that's not the argument at all. just because a women started the thread, it appears tht some people assume she's on some sort of moral crusade


----------



## pk (Oct 7, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> True enough, although personally I think cock-sucking is even more of a radical statement.



Well you'd be the expert on that. How many poledancers do you actually know?

Are they all prostitutes in your eyes?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

moomoo said:


> Lol!  If I did lapdancing I'd end up paying compensation to the poor sod whose legs I'd crushed.



Tbf, there are probably people out there who would pay good money for that.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Indeed, I think these are substantial issues. Everyone has the right to a certain quality of life in the workplace. Worker's rights are important.
> 
> Let's go to an extreme and work backwards. Let's imagine that in order for strip club dancers to get a job, they have to be willing to piss and shit all over each other. I think we can agree that nobody wants to do that at work? This debate just moves the line closer. If the dancers are being pressured into doing demeaning work, then they have the right - as should all workers - to demand improvements in their working conditions. In this case, that could be by better enforcement of existing regulations, or creation of new ones.
> 
> Yes, as adults, people are free to offer money for whatever they want. And people should equally have the right to refuse that offer. In a world of finite jobs, the 'just quit' option does not work. It is a fallacious argument no matter what job or worker is being discussed.



The thing that I didn't understand about this program is that they seemed to be saying that changing the license from general entertainment to sexual encounter would protect the women.  

How would that work?

The ex-dancer claimed that some women were put under pressure to perform lewd acts in order to pay the house fee before they actually got to earn any money.  In a situation where the license was for sexual encounter, and was substantially more expensive than a general entertainment license, then the house fees would be astronomical and so the pressure on the women to commit lewd acts would be greater.  Also, if the license if for sexual encounter I don't see how the women can insist on a no touching rule. 

It seems to me that if the licensing rules were changed in the way that the program makers recommend the result would be a lot of out of work dancers whose only option to continue working as a lap dancer would be to work at a sexual encounter club with massive house fees and where the no touch rule was not in place.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Because you glamourise an industry which you then go on to appreciate the negative effects of. Which, if I recall, was what I said you'd do at the time.




that's ridiculous

there's nothing inherently sleazy about pole dancing, it is a highly skilled activity that is fantastic for body conditioning and developing confidence. 

lots of women who attend pole dancing classes don't even work as pole dancers but have a pole at home and dance for the entertainment of themselves and their partners. 

My old gym, a women only gym, used to run burlesque striptease classes for the members and not one of the women who attended the classes I attended was a stripper.  Just women having fun while playing dress up (and undress) while getting a lot of exercise. 

I remember your contributions to that thread and you came across as someone with real issues about women enjoying themselves


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 7, 2008)

They showed the same clips over and over again... i know that much.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

pk said:


> I cannot disagree more. This kind of thinking isn't far from the "she's wearing a short skirt so she must be desperate for sex" kind of attitude.
> 
> If you think of the whole pole dancing thing as a gym class, a workout, which it is considering the many sets of normally unused upside-down muscle groups you have to rely on to do it well, it has nothing to do with men as an athletic discipline.
> 
> ...


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> The thing that I didn't understand about this program is that they seemed to be saying that changing the license from general entertainment to sexual encounter would protect the women.
> 
> How would that work?
> 
> ...



I didn't see the prog, but I would imagine that what she was getting at was that it's kind of a grey area at the moment and a lot of girls are getting into it because they see it as 'entertainment' and don't realise that it is really 'the sex industry'

I don't know anything about the industry at all, but it does sound like stuff goes on at clubs licenced as 'entertainment venues' which is a long way from a bit of sexy dancing and flirting, before the clubs proliferated a couple of years ago a lot of the girls who do it now wouldn't dream about it

It's not about wether or not lapdancing is right or wrong, it's wether the girls (and blokes i spose) know what they are getting into


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

B0B2oo9 said:


> They showed the same clips over and over again... i know that much.



The program was like a telly version of NOTW

Lots of salacious footage of tits and bums over and over again cut with interviews with the undercover reporter complaining about how traumatic it had been for him to have beautiful women gyrate in front of his face.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 7, 2008)

Thing is you could do that in any industry and find people doing stuff they should not?


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> I didn't see the prog, but I would imagine that what she was getting at was that it's kind of a grey area at the moment and a lot of girls are getting into it because they see it as 'entertainment' and don't realise that it is really 'the sex industry'
> 
> I don't know anything about the industry at all, but it does sound like stuff goes on at clubs licenced as 'entertainment venues' which is a long way from a bit of sexy dancing and flirting, before the clubs proliferated a couple of years ago a lot of the girls who do it now wouldn't dream about it
> 
> It's not about wether or not lapdancing is right or wrong, it's wether the girls (and blokes i spose) know what they are getting into



I don't think that it was about girls not knowing what they were getting into.  It was more about presenting a perspective of lap dancing clubs getting licenses in small towns under false pretenses.

This may very well be a valid concern, however given that there are loads of women working in these places it seems to me that the genie is out of the bottle.   Legislators will have to be extremely careful in reviewing licensing for existing clubs that they do not force existing dancers into prostitution by taking away their current source of revenue by replacing current clubs with sexual encounter clubs.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Yep. No matter how pretty you word it up.. pole dancing ain't dancing.
> 
> 
> They come into your _pole-dancing_ lessons as muppets and they don't leave as Dame Margot Fonteyn.
> ...



Your old name was OS IMMIC
And you were a tool back then, looks like you haven't changed


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I don't think that it was about girls not knowing what they were getting into.  It was more about presenting a perspective of lap dancing clubs getting licenses in small towns under false pretenses.
> 
> This may very well be a valid concern, however given that there are loads of women working in these places it seems to me that the genie is out of the bottle.   Legislators will have to be extremely careful in reviewing licensing for existing clubs that they do not force existing dancers into prostitution by taking away their current source of revenue by replacing current clubs with sexual encounter clubs.



That's a pretty negative way to look at it isn't it? These girls might be being exploited but if we try to put a stop to this they might end up being exploited even worse, if there are a lot of young girls who are relying on a dodgy industry like this to keep them out of prostitution then I wouldn't say that letting these places stay open is really any sort of solution


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 7, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> It seems to me that if the licensing rules were changed in the way that the program makers recommend the result would be a lot of out of work dancers whose only option to continue working as a lap dancer would be to work at a sexual encounter club with massive house fees and where the no touch rule was not in place.



Agreed.  The current situation is far from ideal (and I've got no idea how to make it better), but tighter regulation will make things a fuckload worse.



isitme said:


> I didn't see the prog, but I would imagine that what she was getting at was that it's kind of a grey area at the moment and a lot of girls are getting into it because they see it as 'entertainment' and don't realise that it is really 'the sex industry'



I've known a few girls that have worked in poledancing clubs, from small "backstreet" venues to international chains like Spearmint Rhino.  They all knew _exactly_ what they were getting into.


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I've known a few girls that have worked in poledancing clubs, from small "backstreet" venues to international chains like Spearmint Rhino.  They all knew _exactly_ what they were getting into.



That doesn't mean anything tho, some girls will, some girls won't, everyone is different.....


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> That's a pretty negative way to look at it isn't it? These girls might be being exploited but if we try to put a stop to this they might end up being exploited even worse, if there are a lot of young girls who are relying on a dodgy industry like this to keep them out of prostitution then I wouldn't say that letting these places stay open is really any sort of solution



I think that the situation is complex

I don't feel at all comfortable with the idea of a small town having a lap dancing club on every street 

article here in the indie re the issues

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eater-control-of-lapdancing-clubs-815853.html

I think there is a problem with licensing and I don't have a simple solution.

I do think that a change in licensing could have negative effects for the women currently working in existing clubs.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> That doesn't mean anything tho, some girls will, some girls won't, everyone is different.....



The impression I was given was that everyone working there knew exactly what the job involved from the start. (for a lot of the girls the dancing was very much at the "soft" end of how they made their incomes - a lot did porn as well)

You'd have to spectacularly naive to think otherwise IMO.


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I think that the situation is complex
> 
> I don't feel at all comfortable with the idea of a small town having a lap dancing club on every street
> 
> ...



I agree about that, it's a much bigger problem than just the licencing. But I don't see the current situation as acceptable either

I'll have a look through that article in a bit....


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The impression I was given was that everyone working there knew exactly what the job involved from the start. (for a lot of the girls the dancing was very much at the "soft" end of how they made their incomes - a lot did porn as well)
> 
> You'd have to spectacularly naive to think otherwise IMO.



I think it's spectacularly naive to think that every girl in the country who works in pole dancing or lap dancing knows exactly what they are doing tbh


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> I think it's spectacularly naive to think that every girl in the country who works in pole dancing or lap dancing knows exactly what they are doing tbh



On top of that, I'm sure there's a third group who know objectively what they're getting themselves in for, but don't really know how it's likely to effect them until they do it.


----------



## pk (Oct 7, 2008)

Pole dancing and lap dancing are two entirely different things too, for the record.


----------



## CharlieAddict (Oct 7, 2008)

i've taken the missus to Secrets.
it's a fuckin' shit joint and overly priced.

use to know the DJ there and a couple of the girls there are known to provide extras. but that stuff is pretty normal in the industry.

stupid documentary imo.
boo hoo - she danced 10cm too close to my balls.
and she even rubbed my nuts and her tits intruded my space.
i feel so offended.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 7, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> On top of that, I'm sure there's a third group who know objectively what they're getting themselves in for, but don't really know how it's likely to effect them until they do it.



I think it's the sort of industry where nobody is going to know quite how it will effect them until they try.

Quite how you sort out providing an environment where those who wish to take things as far as they want can do so, while simultaneously protecting those who either don't understand the full implications or simply don't want to go as far as others do is beyond me though.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> I think it's spectacularly naive to think that every girl in the country who works in pole dancing or lap dancing knows exactly what they are doing tbh



If they don't know what's expected of them when they first walk into a club for an audition I'd wager they will do well before they even do their first dance.  What I've heard (and what last nights program showed) is that you don't exactly have to scratch the surface very hard to find out.


(I'm not saying the situation is right btw, I just don't think any girl involved in the industry can claim they are unaware of what they are getting into)


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> boo hoo - she danced 10cm too close to my balls.
> and she even rubbed my nuts and her tits intruded my space.
> i feel so offended.



It's not your problem, or about offence.


----------



## CharlieAddict (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> It's not your problem, or about offence.


 
who's problem is it then?

now...i have to read this thread.


----------



## chico enrico (Oct 7, 2008)

Didn't see the programme myself but I used to go out with a girl who worked in The Astral, Spearmint Rhinos and Browns sometimes. 

said most of the girls offered extras and were up for 'house calls', hardly surprising given the nature of the work.

i remember in Rhinos she said the girls were made to wear clothes which had no way of concealing bits of paper with punters' phone numbers on them, let alone bank notes (which some customers would write their numbers on) so they couldn't arrange to meet up with them for escort work. and were all made to hang about in the (locked) changing rooms at the end of the night till the last punters left before they were allowed out. said some girls would faint in the heat, let alone the disgraceful fire risk. 

personally i just find lapdancing weird and really cannot imagine why men would pay for it. the amount some men will pay for dance after dance is just insane; hundreds if not approaching thousands in a night just for some girl to gyrate aboutinfront of you.  

actually, she said the worst groups you'd get in were mixed sex as invariably the women would try to take the piss and the guys they were with would act up and try to put the girls down. just wankers. 

these tays, i know a few girls who do pole dancing lessons as there's that place at the end of old street that does them that's been featured in metro. they do it cos it's good exercise, a bit 'edgy' and 'bad girl' and they probably want to be Dita Von Teese. But it's not like that's really got much to do with pole or lap dancing in a strip club which, at the end of the day ends up with some coked up city boy in a Cito Citterio suit trying to finger your ass while he tugs his pud.


----------



## Sadken (Oct 7, 2008)

It's basically coke that is the motivating factor for men, I think.  Coke or a lot of booze.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

Sadken said:


> It's basically coke that is the motivating factor for men, I think.  Coke or a lot of booze.



And group machismo/peer pressure, from what I've heard.


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 7, 2008)

It was a sh*t show - who gives a tinkers cuss whether you can get a crafty rub and a tug in a titty bar? it's not as if they're going to offer to mow your lawn now or offer to babysit now is it, at least what they do for a crust is more honest than whoever put this shower of faux prurient, disingenuous, daily heil appealing rats p*ss together

Lap dancing is empowering to women and healthy. Plus it gives me a hard-on. The only people who have a problem with lap dancing are gayers and ugly birds with saggy tits

Thread closed


----------



## 8ball (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes, dear.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

Yes, I have tits down to my knees, and every woman who works as a lap dancer is dead happy and considers it the most empowering thing ever. Wow, what an insight you have DRINK.


----------



## CharlieAddict (Oct 7, 2008)

DRINK? said:


> It was a sh*t show - who gives a tinkers cuss whether you can get a crafty rub and a tug in a titty bar? it's not as if they're going to offer to mow your lawn now or offer to babysit now is it, at least what they do for a crust is more honest than whoever put this shower of faux prurient, disingenuous, daily heil appealing rats p*ss together
> 
> Lap dancing is empowering to women and healthy. Plus it gives me a hard-on. The only people who have a problem with lap dancing are gayers and ugly birds with saggy tits
> 
> Thread closed


 
you should had been the narrative for that documentary.
more tits n' ass!!! less vicars and ugly mothers!


----------



## iskande (Oct 7, 2008)

DRINK? said:


> Plus it gives me a hard-on. The only people who have a problem with lap dancing are gayers and ugly birds with saggy tits



why would "gayers"  be concerned about straights did inna night club ...?


----------



## chico enrico (Oct 7, 2008)

iskande said:


> why would "gayers"  be concerned about straights did inna night club ...?



also da gayers have their own lapdancing clubs now. get wit da modern times, whydoncha?


----------



## CharlieAddict (Oct 7, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> also da gayers have their own lapdancing clubs now. get wit da modern times, whydoncha?


 
yes...the chinese cowboy on thursday nights in The Village has a lovely ass.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

CharlieAddict said:


> you should had been the narrative for that documentary.
> more tits n' ass!!! less vicars and ugly mothers!


Hahaha you're both hilarious. knock it off.


----------



## bellies (Oct 7, 2008)

i'd have thought those Sauna Massage places that are on high streets would be more of an issue than Lapdancing clubs


----------



## kabbes (Oct 7, 2008)

I have an idea to prevent the exploitation of the vulnerable: set minimum age limits for dancers that ensure that those involved have had enough time to develop sufficent inner security, confidence and understanding of the nature of the trade.  About 50 should do it, I reckon.


----------



## yardbird (Oct 7, 2008)

As an old hippy I find all this weird.

We just used to shag one and other.
A lot.


----------



## chico enrico (Oct 7, 2008)

bellies said:


> i'd have thought those Sauna Massage places that are on high streets would be more of an issue than Lapdancing clubs



then where would the councillors who are trying to introduce the anti-lap dancing club legislation go for a bit of 'executive relief'?


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> It feels like I am having some kind of epiphany here.



That'll probably be flatulance from hanging upside down with your legs apart for so long...


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 7, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> that's ridiculous
> 
> there's nothing inherently sleazy about pole dancing,



Don't be stupid, loulou.

It doesn't matter whether it's inherently sleazy or not. It matters that it's a type of dancing associated with a particular type of industry.

You want to perpetuate the media bullshit that for a woman to be sexy she needs to wear stockings and slide down a pole - then feel free.



> I remember your contributions to that thread and you came across as someone with real issues about women enjoying themselves



I think history and posting records will prove that _you're_ the one who likes to tell women how they should enjoy themselves.

I like to tell everyone. I make no distinction for sex.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 7, 2008)

pk said:


> I cannot disagree more. This kind of thinking isn't far from the "she's wearing a short skirt so she must be desperate for sex" kind of attitude.
> 
> If you think of the whole pole dancing thing as a gym class, a workout, which it is considering the many sets of normally unused upside-down muscle groups you have to rely on to do it well, it has nothing to do with men as an *athletic discipline.*
> 
> ...



Tha's one of the funniest bits of satire I've read on urban. I do hope you meant it as such.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> It matters that it's a type of dancing associated with a particular type of industry.



And, as mentioned, belly dancing was associated with the enslavement of women in the harem. Associations are fluid, that's what culture is. If anything, teaching pole dancing outside of the context of the sex industry _dissociates_ it from that industry.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 7, 2008)

Lapdancing is like going into a resturant paying for a massive steak or something, then having the waiter bring you the food and put it just under your nose so you can see and smell how good it is.. then take it back into the kictchen... 

you leave hungry and skint.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> And, as mentioned, belly dancing was associated with the enslavement of women in the harem. Associations are fluid, that's what culture is. If anything, teaching pole dancing outside of the context of the sex industry _dissociates_ it from that industry.



Belly dancing *was* associated many years ago and in cultures very far from here.. We are talking about current associations happening right now in the streets and towns and homes in the uk.

There is no comparison, crispy.

Poeple often try to use the words 'empowering' and 'powerful' when they talk about women stripping or pole-dancing.. but, as if often the case, that's just fancy words designed to fool young women into an industry that exploits them just as much as it exploits the men. They're selling a lie. And by buying into that lie you perpetuate it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Poeple often try to use the words 'empowering' and 'powerful' when they talk about women stripping or pole-dancing.. but, as if often the case, that's just fancy words designed to fool young women into an industry that exploits them just as much as it exploits the men. They're selling a lie. And by buying into that lie you perpetuate it.



I fail to see how Pole dancing as a form of exercise exclusively for a group of women exploits them or men...


----------



## likesfish (Oct 7, 2008)

Haywoods heath somebody torched the
Place real stylish place where punters could be tied down. Dont think its greatly missed. One of the brighton clubs is above a gay sauna
 Pole dancing classes for grown women fair enough i m sure the ping pong trick is hard to learn as well.
But the muppet who thought it was appopiate for young girls no hell no


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

Tbf I agree that you probably can't divorce the sexual aspect of pole dancing with fitness poledancing, at least not at the current time. Why do people like it? Surely it's at least a bit about the make believe of being a (glamorous) stripper, even if the person would never dream of doing it in front of that sort of appreciative audience. 

The things we do in make believe are telling, particularly about gender relations. I remember despite being a relative tomboy child, I'd still have the occasional childhood fantasies about being a bride and would put a lace doily on my head. As I got older, my pre-teenage friends would start play dressing up as sexy women. I'm not sure boys really did that - they just pretended to be astronauts and things. 

After growing up, I still think that women play around more with those types of roles than men. Which ties in to patriarchy and my earlier reflection on how we have a massive mainstream sex industry where one gender services another.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> innit, that's not the argument at all. just because a women started the thread, it appears tht some people assume she's on some sort of moral crusade


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

ya rly


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I think that the situation is complex
> 
> I don't feel at all comfortable with the idea of a small town having a lap dancing club on every street
> .



Most small towns can't support having the same business on every street. Simple economics: there aren't enough punters to support that many clubs.

Btw, I know the op isn't interested in opinions from elsewhere, but you might find the experience here, somewhat relevant.

Stripping and lapdancing took off in a big way here, back in the late eighties and early nineties. At the height of its popularity, there were probably dozens of bars with girls dancing.

Today, you can count the strip/lapdance bars on the fingers of one hand, throughout the whole urban area. It just died out  for some reason. I suspect that at least part of the reason, is that younger guys coming along aren't interested in places like this.

Also, back when it first showed up, some of the municipalities tried to keep it out via regulation, licencing etc. One club, they revoked their liquor licence. The club began serving soda pop only.

In other municipalities, they tried to make the business licences for these places, prohibitively expensive. That didn't stand up to court challenge.

In the end, it wasn't regulatory initiatives that killed it. It was public disinterest.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> ya rly



Well, I'm not one of them.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> That'll probably be flatulance from hanging upside down with your legs apart for so long...



Careful, your unpleasant misogyny is showing. Mind you, now I know you used to post as OriginalSinner it all makes more sense, you did this last time and it was both personal and creepy.

Women can't pole dance in gym sweats  and bare feet in a class with each other for fun because some  dancers  pole dance in lace knickers and high heels and paying men are there?

Many women also like to wear high heels and lace underwear because they enjoy it and even though nobody ever sees it, or only their partner see it; I suppose that because strippers also wear high heels and lace knickers, this is also 'associated with a particular type of industry' and in Kismet/OriginalSinners world, means they are stupid dirty little whores?

Because women are not capable of making up their own minds and expressing themselves however they want, doing a pole class one day and then kung-fu the next, wearing high heels and a G string one day and trainers and jeans the next?

I can't actually believe Kismet/OriginalSinner ( Thanks LLB for the tip off) thinks like this; it would be surely apparent even to him the ludicrous irrationality and patronising sneering misogny of his position, so I can only assume that he's on a wind up.
Anyone who can write this crap


> It doesn't matter whether it's inherently sleazy or not. It matters that it's a type of dancing associated with a particular type of industry.



with a straight face, is obviously just trying to be provocative.

Thing is, JC2 and Kismet's attempts at being 'provocative' in this thread have consisted mainly of nasty little personal attacks and that's not debating, that's just personal attacks

So now they're both on ignore - atleast as far as this subject goes on this thread.

Agent sparrow, I think you're right, there is a definite element of play  in it. Just as there is in belly dancing classes or tap classes as opposed to step classes. Some people might think it is unhealthy for a woman to play at being an exotic dancer or Hollywood showgirl with her friends whilst exercising, others might think it's  it's fun and liberating to stop thinking about the day job and fool about with performance and sexuality and other identities.

On the question of regulating the industry, I thought Louloubelle made some very good points and maybe the horse has bolted. I still don't think it is great to have 5 lapdancing places ( lapdancing is not the same as pole dancing) in the main drag of a small town, and I can see why residents object. It's a hugely profitable industry and if it is lightly-regulated and treated as public entertainment for licensing purposes, business will boom. 

The programme was looking at what happens in lap dancing clubs and questioning whether it really should be licensed as public entertainment, like a kareoke club or comedy club, or whether it should be treated differently -  and I think that was a fair question to ask and there is a debate going on about it nationall and locally. The issue of zoning  -  planning where they go is relevant, because it does change the atmosphere of the town square if it has several lap dancing places in a small area. 

Same as if it had 5 boxing venues with live prizefighting going on in a small area, and loads of revved-up pissed men swarming in and out. And maybe that's a better analogy. It makes it clearer that I wasn't on some kind of moral crusade. I was thinking about something else.

(I don't see anyone moaning that boxercise classes encourages or glamorises seedy bare-knuckle prizefighting by the way.)

I am not saying close them down. I did start off the thread by saying that I didn't think it should be as easy to buy a faux-lesbian sex show as a curry on a tuesday night. And I expressed concern for the way dancers were working in clubs which condoned or encouraged sex shows, faked masturbation etc, when it has always traditionally been dancing, conversation, no touching and that's what the licences were for, not 'sex-encounters'. Fully nude is still a relatively recent development. If sex encounters are going on then they should be licensed as such.

The credit crunch has closed several of Blackpools 12 lapdancing clubs.


http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/blackpoolnews/Party-time-over-for-lapdancing.4557788.jp


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 7, 2008)

I don't think lapdancing is desirable and I wouldn't want these clubs on my doorstep.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

pk said:


> How many poledancers do you actually know?
> 
> Are they all prostitutes in your eyes?



One.  She is indeed a prostitute (though I would never say that to her face).  But this is in Mexico, where I assume things are different.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The issue of zoning  -  planning where they go is relevant, because it does change the atmosphere of the town square if it has several lap dancing places in a small area.
> 
> Same as if it had 5 boxing venues with live prizefighting going on in a small area, and loads of revved-up pissed men swarming in and out. And maybe that's a better analogy. It makes it clearer that I wasn't on some kind of moral crusade. I was thinking about something else.



But there's no less than three lap dancing venues within thirty yards of where Old Street meets Kingsland road and I've never heard *anyone* mention any negative effects it has on the area. This is something I've witnessed and not just supposition using analogies. 

For the record, I'm not pro strip venues as I don't use them. Just striking a balance in the debate.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

But London is a big city, it also has a financial area and Chinatown and Brick lane and Old Compton St and Soho, and when you go to those areas, you know what you get.

Newquay isn't a big town. Blackpool isn't. Does Newquay need 5 places? Does Blackpool need 12? Does Ipswich need 7?

I went to stratford on Avon for a wedding the other week, a really small olde worlde town and even in the historic town centre, there was a lap dancing club. It is getting a bit ubiquitous.

And if you look a local newspapers, or put lapdancing into google news, you'll find endless stories of locals being pissed off because of the boom in lapdancing places and saying it is a problem for their small areas and the licences are handed out too easily, and licensing laws flouted. Which was the original premise of the programme  (as well as showing lots of mono grainy film of nude fit women)


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> But London is a big city, it also has a financial area and Chinatown and Brick lane and Old Compton St and Soho, and when you go to those areas, you know what you get.
> 
> Newquay isn't a big town. Blackpool isn't. Does Newquay need 5 places? Does Blackpool need 12? Does Ipswich need 7?



Fair point. 

And the ones I refer to aren't very big and just look like dives. I can get what you're saying about the new super venues cropping up and imposing themselves on smaller towns, yes.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I went to stratford on Avon for a wedding the other week, a really small olde worlde town and even in the historic town centre, there was a lap dancing club. It is getting a bit ubiquitous.



Though if you read Shakespeare, you find that prostitution was far more common in sixteenth-century Stratford than it is today.  I don't think they even bothered with lap-dancing back then.


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Does Newquay need 5 places? Does Blackpool need 12? Does Ipswich need 7?
> 
> I went to stratford on Avon for a wedding the other week, a really small olde worlde town and even in the historic town centre, there was a lap dancing club. It is getting a bit ubiquitous.
> 
> And if you look a local newspapers, or put lapdancing into google news, you'll find endless stories of locals being pissed off because of the boom in lapdancing places and saying it is a problem for their small areas and the licences are handed out too easily, and licensing laws flouted. Which was the original premise of the programme  (as well as showing lots of mono grainy film of nude fit women)



Blackpool and Newquay aren't typical towns tho, they are both tourist resorts. The same applies to Casinos and so on

Blackpool is a small town, does it really need a rollercoaster? 

I think the size of these towns is a bit of a red herring in this debate because they both have millions of tourists every year and their economies are geared towards that


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Though if you read Shakespeare, you find that prostitution was far more common in sixteenth-century Stratford than it is today.  I don't think they even bothered with lap-dancing back then.



talk about going off topic


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> talk about going off topic



Not really, just putting the sex industry into historical context.  It was far, far bigger in the past than it is today.  It is estimated that 10% of women in Victorian London were prostitutes.


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Not really, just putting the sex industry into historical context.  It was far, far bigger in the past than it is today.  It is estimated that 10% of women in Victorian London were prostitutes.



But noone was discussing historical context, the discussion was about the effect of recent changes in licencing laws


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

isitme said:


> But noone was discussing historical context, the discussion was about the effect of recent changes in licencing laws



Sorry Ninj, I know what a stickler you are for board propriety.


----------



## isitme (Oct 7, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Sorry Ninj, I know what a stickler you are for board propriety.



talk about going off topic


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Thing is, JC2 and Kismet's attempts at being 'provocative' in this thread have consisted mainly of nasty little personal attacks and that's not debating, that's just personal attacksl]



I'm sure you think they are personal attacks, but in my case at least, it was an attack, if that's the language you prefer, on what I saw as an excessively moralistic position, a position that sought to control the actions of others for no overwhelming reason.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Newquay isn't a big town. Blackpool isn't. Does Newquay need 5 places? Does Blackpool need 12? Does Ipswich need 7?
> 
> )


If customer demand is there, arguably, they do.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I went to stratford on Avon for a wedding the other week, a really small olde worlde town and even in the historic town centre, there was a lap dancing club. It is getting a bit ubiquitous.


Were there pictures of naked women outside in neon; or possibly loud and brassy music playing through loudspeakers?

Why would you be offended by the mere presence of such a place, without something further?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> And if you look a local newspapers, or put lapdancing into google news, you'll find endless stories of locals being pissed off because of the boom in lapdancing places and saying it is a problem for their small areas and the licences are handed out too easily, and licensing laws flouted. Which was the original premise of the programme  (as well as showing lots of mono grainy film of nude fit women)




We have a saying here, relating to things in the community: NIMBY. 

Not In My Back Yard. Whether people agree with something in principle or not, they don't want it near them.

Halfway houses for recovering alcoholics and drug users? Good idea, but NIMBY. Put it somewhere, but make it somewhere else.

Rape relief centers? Great, but NIMBY.

The phrase was coined by a local politician, talking about how hard it is to get neighborhood concensus about anything. 

So the fact that some townspeople make negative noises about this business or that being in their town is worthy of some note, but I don't think that it can always be the deciding factor.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Not really, just putting the sex industry into historical context.  It was far, far bigger in the past than it is today.  It is estimated that 10% of women in Victorian London were prostitutes.



Were there a lot of men running around with a lot of disposable income back then?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Were there a lot of men running around with a lot of disposable income back then?



Yep.  Lots of child prostitution and fatal STDs too:

"But most, through midnight streets I hear
How the youthful harlot's curse
Blasts the new-born infant's tear,
And blights with plagues the marriage-hearse."

William Blake, "London."  Plus ca change...


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If customer demand is there, arguably, they do.



That's the reality of it, I'm afraid. I'm not into lap dancing or pole dancing clubs personally, but a lot of people are and, while that demand exists and is legal, then club owners will seek to service that demand. If that demand drops off, then so will the number of clubs as they won't be profitable any more.

In a purely commercial sense it's got nothing to do with morality or ethics, it's all about what's profitable and, for the time being, these places tend to turn a pretty big profit.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

*takes JC2 off ignore to read last few posts*



Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Maybe you could team up with the god botherers in educating people on the evils of fornication.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm not questioning the show: I'm questioning your little personal morality list.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No, it's about my distaste for self important moralizing prigs.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Good plan: nobody much likes disagreement.
> 
> She says it's all about the tv show, but if you look at her first two posts - quelle suprise! - it barely gets a mention.
> 
> ...




This is just a few examples of the stuff you posted over and over and over, even when it was explained that this was not about morality but about licensing - a loophole in the UK licensing law that 

a) puts lapdancing joints on a public entertainment lic ence, same as a kareoke bar or comedy club.

b) this means residents have almost zero powers of veto and there is no limit or zoning in place re. where the places set up - whereas there is for sex shops and adult cinemas etc - so when applying for a licence, the business does not even have to state that it is a lap dancing club. This pisses off many residents, especially in small towns,  and there has been a lot of news  and discussion in the UK about it, hence the C4 show, in the thread title


( a TV show which you could not see in a country you do not live in)


c) Moreover, the no touching etc rule is being regularly flouted and this pressurises dancers to perform sex shows and b reak rules to get their tips in a highly competitive, money-driven industry, with little protection or rights for workers.
d) So I start a thread about this show and this situation.


In it, you jump from the very beginning into trying to portray me as some 
god-bothering, self-important, moralizing prig  - your words - who is simultaneously writing a mythical article and using the board for material and somehow at the same time only interested in the sound of her own voice.

You repeatedly ignored what i said, and the substance of the thread and carried on with your inaccurate and nasty little attacks.

So that is why I put you on ignore Johnny. You weren't  interested in the programme, the licensing issue or anything other than throwing personal attacks around.

*puts JC2 back on ignore*


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

here here


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *puts JC2 back on ignore*



It is proper annoying though if you're on the other end of an epic diatribe and then get your right to reply removed.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> That's the reality of it, I'm afraid. I'm not into lap dancing or pole dancing clubs personally, but a lot of people are and, while that demand exists and is legal, then club owners will seek to service that demand. If that demand drops off, then so will the number of clubs as they won't be profitable any more..



It's like McDonalds or Starbucks.


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> This is just a few examples of the stuff you posted over and over and over, even when it was explained that this was not about morality but about licensing - a loophole in the UK licensing law that



I see, it's a _loophole_ not just a law you don't like.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Hey, my position has been made clear in my posts,which are right here on this board and relate to that show about that licensing loophole issue which is being discussed on this thread in this country where you can also find many news articles about this issue.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *
> 
> 
> This is just a few examples of the stuff you posted over and over and over, even when it was explained that this was not about morality but about licensing - a loophole in the UK licensing law that
> ...



But if it's not about morality, why is there this concern?

If it's not about morality, why should the rules be different for lapdancing clubs vs karaoke bars or comedy clubs?


----------



## stretchy18 (Oct 7, 2008)

Competitive market place=cheaper lap dancing for punters more "elaborate" and "Risque" dancing, cheaper beer, more cash your average drunken stag saves for sambuka and fry ups


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> c) Moreover, the no touching etc rule is being regularly flouted and this pressurises dancers to perform sex shows and b reak rules to get their tips in a highly competitive, money-driven industry, with little protection or rights for workers.
> 
> 
> > If they don't like the working conditions, they can find other work. That's how it is in any occupation I'm aware of.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

I don't trust Channel 4.  Also some women enjoy being lapdancers or are using it just for the money.  Who are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't be allowed to do.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *
> In it, you jump from the very beginning into trying to portray me as some
> god-bothering, self-important, moralizing prig  - your words - who is simultaneously writing a mythical article and using the board for material and somehow at the same time only interested in the sound of her own voice.
> 
> ...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If they don't like the working conditions, they can find other work. That's how it is in any occupation I'm aware of.



That isn't really how it works (or is supposed to work) in other industries involving regulations.


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

Such as?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> here here



I think you mean: 'hear, hear'.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> I don't trust Channel 4.  Also some women enjoy being lapdancers or are using it just for the money.  Who are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't be allowed to do.



I'm not, am I? I'm posting about an issue which was aired in a documentary last night on a fucking talk board.

I have never told any lapdancers what they should or shouldn't do, (unless you count teaching a few new-to-it strippers some pole tricks and that they shouldn't cross their ankles when descending, and they should relax their arm grip so as not to get bruises).

I am discussing.a.show.about.public.entertainment.licensing.

Despite the fervent efforts of a couple of posters to portray it as some kind of Mary Whitehouse reprise.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Hey, my position has been made clear in my posts,which are right here on this board and relate to that show about that licensing loophole issue which is being discussed on this thread in this country where you can also find many news articles about this issue.



If this thread is about the show, then why is it that the show gets passing mention only in the first two of your posts, following which you give us a fulsome recital of your own opinion, followed by an invitation for others to give theirs?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That isn't really how it works (or is supposed to work) in other industries involving regulations.



Can you rephrase that in a way that makes sense?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I think you mean: 'hear, hear'.


no, I meant heeyr heeyr


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> no, I meant heeyr heeyr



I didn't realize you are Dutch.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2;8147910][QUOTE=Badger Kitten said:


> c) Moreover, the no touching etc rule is being regularly flouted and this pressurises dancers to perform sex shows and b reak rules to get their tips in a highly competitive, money-driven industry, with little protection or rights for workers.
> 
> 
> > If they don't like the working conditions, they can find other work. That's how it is in any occupation I'm aware of.
> ...


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

didn't you mean realise?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Can you rephrase that in a way that makes sense?



Well, no, not really, that's pretty clear I thought. But if it's not obvious, here's an example: if a firm is granted a licence to handle toxic waste on the basis that certain safety regulations are followed to protect the workers, and they're not followed, the response is not "well if they don't like it they can get another job", it's "fix it or you lose your licence". Or, at least, it should be, even if in practice they may get away with it.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> I don't trust Channel 4.  Also some women enjoy being lapdancers or are using it just for the money.  Who are you to tell them what they should or shouldn't be allowed to do.



Yes. That's exactly what everyone with concerns is saying. 










Oh, almost forgot...


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> no, I meant heeyr heeyr



Didn't you mean Hee Hee?


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

That show really twisted the lap dancing industry.  I wouldn't call that show a documentary, more light entertainment.  Lap dance on ladies  don't let the do gooders get you down.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Hocus Eye.;8147993][QUOTE=Johnny Canuck2;8147910][QUOTE=Badger Kitten said:


> c) Moreover, the no touching etc rule is being regularly flouted and this pressurises dancers to perform sex shows and b reak rules to get their tips in a highly competitive, money-driven industry, with little protection or rights for workers.
> 
> 
> Perhaps that is the case in Canada I don't know.  *However in the UK and most of Europe there are laws and regulations to protect workers of most kinds from the worst working conditions.  It should not be necessary to leave your place of work in order to get an improvement.*
> Where these regulations are inadequate the trade unions and other interested parties campaign to get them improved.  Of course where the employee goes along with malpractice or illegal conditions this weakens the position of other similar workers.  Much of what was shown in the Despatches programme happened in the shades of grey between entertainment and sex work.  Here it seems that money overruled all other considerations for the clubs and the girls.




I don't think you're catching my drift. People shouldn't have to work in unsafe conditions, etc. Yes, we have regulations about that, too.

But there is no regulation that is going to somehow keep chambermaids from having to clean toilets. It's part of the job description. If someone doesn't like cleaning toilets, they should resign from their job as a chambermaid.

If the lapdancing industry involves grinding your fanny onto the beefy leg of a punter, then those who don't like the job description, should not work there. There are others who will.

Not everyone is cut out for all types of work.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well, no, not really, that's pretty clear I thought. But if it's not obvious, here's an example: if a firm is granted a licence to handle toxic waste on the basis that certain safety regulations are followed to protect the workers, and they're not followed, the response is not "well if they don't like it they can get another job", it's "fix it or you lose your licence". Or, at least, it should be, even if in practice they may get away with it.



Hero hero

or something else starting with haitches


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If the lapdancing industry involves grinding your fanny onto the beefy leg of a punter, then those who don't like the job description, should not work there. There are others who will.



The job description, as part of the terms of the license for the establishment, explicitly excludes some of the practices documented in the TV program. Therefore, "not working there" is the wrong response.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 7, 2008)

I would just like to point out that what JC posts as a quote from Badger Kitten above is mostly from a post by me - Hocus Eye (the bit from _Perhaps _to _girls_ at the end)


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 7, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Yep.  Lots of child prostitution and fatal STDs too:
> 
> "But most, through midnight streets I hear
> How the youthful harlot's curse
> ...


you cannot know what is enough, until you know what is more than enough.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> didn't you mean realise?



This is kind of embarassing for you.

If you type 'realise' into dictionary.com, you get this. You get this, because 'realise', isn't a real word.



> realize
> 2 dictionary results for: realise
> Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
> re·al·ize      /ˈriəˌlaɪz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ree-uh-lahyz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -ized, -iz·ing.
> ...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well, no, not really, that's pretty clear I thought. But if it's not obvious, here's an example: if a firm is granted a licence to handle toxic waste on the basis that certain safety regulations are followed to protect the workers, and they're not followed, the response is not "well if they don't like it they can get another job", it's "fix it or you lose your licence". Or, at least, it should be, even if in practice they may get away with it.



Yes, of course. What does that have to do with what we're talking about?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> The job description, as part of the terms of the license for the establishment, explicitly excludes some of the practices documented in the TV program. Therefore, "not working there" is the wrong response.



Which takes us back to the debate initiated by Badger Kitten's draft regulations, back at post two or three: is it necessary to have a 'no touching' rule?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I would just like to point out that what JC posts as a quote from Badger Kitten above is mostly from a post by me - Hocus Eye (the bit from _Perhaps _to _girls_ at the end)



I hope so: the reply was aimed at you.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it really does seem to have gone a bit far. 5 establishments in one small town of 20,000 in Cornwall ( typical example)?
> 
> They are incredibly ubiquitous. I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.
> 
> ...



Ok so to answer the question.  More regulation and tougher licenses?  No way.  To me that sounds like a 'nosey parker/curtain twitchin' approach.  No offence.  Let them get on with it, or open your own business and advertise it as 'a job that's not lapdancing' and hire away.  innit like.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Which takes us back to the debate initiated by Badger Kitten's draft regulations, back at post two or three: is it necessary to have a 'no touching' rule?



Licences to operate are granted (at least in part) based on stated rules that will supposedly be adhered to by the establishment. Lots of clubs claim to have a no-touching rule. It appears that in many cases that isn't enforced.

If a club had a no-touching rule but it was informal and not related to the licence then that wouldn't be a licencing issue of course, but it would quite likely be a good one for a constructive dismissal case (or something similar).


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well, no, not really, that's pretty clear I thought. But if it's not obvious, here's an example: if a firm is granted a licence to handle toxic waste on the basis that certain safety regulations are followed to protect the workers, and they're not followed, the response is not "well if they don't like it they can get another job", it's "fix it or you lose your licence". Or, at least, it should be, even if in practice they may get away with it.



The point fails because your confusing safety regulations with working conditions some girls may or may not like.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Which takes us back to the debate initiated by Badger Kitten's draft regulations, back at post two or three: is it necessary to have a 'no touching' rule?


I think so. There are two arguments here though:

1. Are the regulations governing this industry appropiately?
2. Are those regulations being enforced?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

XR75 said:


> The point fails because your confusing safety regulations with working conditions some girls may or may not like.



No it doesn't, because I'm not talking about statutory safety regulations, I'm talking about licences being granted on the basis of the company concerned adhering to stated behaviour.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> That show really twisted the lap dancing industry.  I wouldn't call that show a documentary, more light entertainment.  Lap dance on ladies  don't let the do gooders get you down.



The show dealt with real events recorded in lap dancing clubs.  These events may well be marginal to what happens most of the time.  However there was filmed evidence that showed that the 'One foot rule' was not adhered to all of the time.  As this is a regulation stipulated by the licensing authorities and referred to by the club filmed in their introduction to new girls then the documentary made its point.  

The film documented things that were not according to regulations.  It also made comments - but why not have an editorial element in a documentary?  As to its entertainment value that is also part of its role on television.  However it was hardly 'light' entertainment as it was dealing with serious or 'heavy' issues.  It did not condemn the girls, and if it has any effect on the regulatory regime then it will do them some good.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

In this country under public entertainment licences, which these clubs operate under, at this point in time,  they have to fulfil strict conditions which include no sex encounters - no touching.

Public entertainment licences were not designed to regulate lap dancing clubs.These clubs are pushing the definition of public entertainment as far as legally possible and this is annoying to residents who do not want lots of highly profitable lap dancing clubs appearing in prime social spaces like town centres and town squares. In small towns it is particularly noticeable and changes the dynamic of the area in a way opening a comedy club, a kareoke bar and a jazz cafe doesn't.

An illustrative  example is a craze for bare knuckle prizefighting and 5 fighting clubs opening up in a small market town, frequented by large crowds of drunk rowdy revved up men.

Now, if clubs are taking the piss and sex encounters are taking place, that is against the terms of the licence. There are different licences for sex shops and adult cinemas.

If a worker works somewhere where the licence is breached and the working conditions are against the terms of the licence, the response is normally not to the workers ''well just leave, others will do the finger-fucking/toxicwaste disposal without protective gear''  - it's to the club owner - ''improve, and adhere to the licensing rules you signed up to or lose your licence''.

The documentary showed that lots of these places were breaching licencsing regulations.

Not ''my draft regulations'', the regulations all places operating under a public entertainment licence operate under, set by the govt.

The second question is whether lapdancing clubs should be licensed under public entertainment licences or a different kind of licence such as the kind used for sex shops and adult cinemas.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> In this country under public entertainment licences, which these clubs operate under, at this point in time,  they have to fulfil strict conditions which include no sex encounters - no touching.
> 
> Public entertainment licences were not designed to regulate lap dancing clubs.These clubs are pushing the definition of public entertainment as far as legally possible and this is annoying to residents who do not want lots of highly profitable lap dancing clubs appearing in prime social spaces like town centres and town squares. In small towns it is particularly noticeable and changes the dynamic of the area in a way opening a comedy club, a kareoke bar and a jazz cafe doesn't.
> 
> ...



I can't work out if you are purely misogynistic or running for local government.  Licensing a lap dancing club same as a sex shop mand adult cinema?  Fuck me


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I think so. There are two arguments here though:
> 
> 1. Are the regulations governing this industry appropiately?
> 2. Are those regulations being enforced?



I'd agree that that is the crux of the issue.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> I can't work out if you are purely misogynistic or running for local government.  Licensing a lap dancing club same as a sex shop mand adult cinema?  Fuck me



How on earth is BK being misogynistic?  And why shouldn't a lap dancing club be licensed the same as a sex shop? After all, I'd imagine there's much more potential for exploitation when rules are breached in a lap dancing club.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 7, 2008)

lapdancing is desperate and sad. why would anyone want it in their community apart from some ghastly nightclub fatcat or gangster.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Public entertainment licences were not designed to regulate lap dancing clubs.These clubs are pushing the definition of public entertainment as far as legally possible and this is annoying to residents who do not want lots of highly profitable lap dancing clubs appearing in prime social spaces like town centres and town squares. .



But it is just public entertainment, unless those opposed have a morals-based agenda.

Otherwise, the idea of 'pushing the idea of public entertainment as far as legally possible', doesn't make sense. It's public entertainment. The only thing separating it from karaoke or comedy, is the sexual element.

Some of those amateur comedians can be pretty offensive, btw.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Speaking of comedy, I went and saw a Sandra Bernhard show once. During the show, she changed on stage at one point. She was topless, with a small pair of panties down below.

So it's ostensibly a comedy show, but all of a sudden, stripping entered into the picture.

How would this fit into the draft regulations?


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> In this country under public entertainment licences, which these clubs operate under, at this point in time,  they have to fulfil strict conditions which include no sex encounters - no touching.
> 
> Public entertainment licences were not designed to regulate lap dancing clubs.These clubs are pushing the definition of public entertainment as far as legally possible and this is annoying to residents who do not want lots of highly profitable lap dancing clubs appearing in prime social spaces like town centres and town squares. In small towns it is particularly noticeable and changes the dynamic of the area in a way opening a comedy club, a kareoke bar and a jazz cafe doesn't.
> 
> ...



Funny you should mention bareknuckle prizefighting, but the fact that the old school bareknuckle boxing is illegal hasn't driven the sport away, it's simply gone underground and now has zero regulation at all. Which is far worse for the fighters as they now have absolutely no legal protection at all. Even in Plymouth, if I wanted to watth bareknuckle fighting then I know exactly where to go to see it. Note that I'm not confusing bareknuckle (in the criminal sense) with mixed martial arts which is an entirely different sport altogether.

My point being, it's going to happen anyway, so personally I'd prefer there to be some regulation (and the rules be rigorously enforced) than no regulation at all. And that goes for both bareknuckle fighting and lap dancing.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Speaking of comedy, I went and saw a Sandra Bernhard show once. During the show, she changed on stage at one point. She was topless, with a small pair of panties down below.
> 
> So it's ostensibly a comedy show, but all of a sudden, stripping entered into the picture.
> 
> How would this fit into the draft regulations?



Provided that she was no closer then 300mm to any member of the audience it would be fine.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> I can't work out if you are purely misogynistic or running for local government.  Licensing a lap dancing club same as a sex shop mand adult cinema?  Fuck me


Fuck me indeed

They are not ''my'' regulations.

They are the regulations under which licences are handed out. The Dispatches show investigated whether the licence conditions were being kept. They weren't in the places the documentary filmed in.

The show examined how the lap dance industry has boomed since 2005 when it became possible for lap dance places to open under public entertainment licences. The show looked at the point which has been repeatedly raised at local and national govt level about whether they should have a public ents licence or a different kind of licence, the kind sex shops have.

The nature of the licences,who hands them out,  what is in them is not something I have got anything to do with personally.

These are the facts, and I would appreciate it if you could bother reading the posts and following what the fuck is going on  before you wrongly call me 'misogynistic' for writing about a documentary on TV which raised the issues.

I'm not the licence-giving out lady. 
I am not asking for lapdancing to be banned. I am not judging lapdancers. I am friends with lapdancers.
I am on a thread looking at a TV show about licencing laws and lap dance places, like lots of other people, who are also expressing their opinions and maybe you and the people projecting their stuff on me could get a grip.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> In small towns it is particularly noticeable and changes the dynamic of the area in a way opening a comedy club, a kareoke bar and a jazz cafe doesn't.
> 
> An illustrative  example is a craze for bare knuckle prizefighting and 5 fighting clubs opening up in a small market town, frequented by large crowds of drunk rowdy revved up men..



I'm not sure I agree that the presence of lapdancing will somehow detract from the milieu that already exists in the towns, given the number of pubs already in existence, and the number of drunks that likely emit from them at closing time. Really: can the atmosphere get much worse?

In any event, even if some of these establishments were to change the tone, then so be it. If there is a demand for a different type of entertainment than what went on before, where is it written that those who liked the old entertainment better, get the final word on what happens in the town center?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> Funny you should mention bareknuckle prizefighting, but the fact that the old school bareknuckle boxing is illegal hasn't driven the sport away, it's simply gone underground and now has zero regulation at all. Which is far worse for the fighters as they now have absolutely no legal protection at all. Even in Plymouth, if I wanted to watth bareknuckle fighting then I know exactly where to go to see it. Note that I'm not confusing bareknuckle (in the criminal sense) with mixed martial arts which is an entirely different sport altogether.
> 
> My point being, it's going to happen anyway, so personally I'd prefer there to be some regulation (and the rules be rigorously enforced) than no regulation at all. And that goes for both bareknuckle fighting and lap dancing.



Thank you, that was what I was saying. Or trying to, when not fending off bizarre accusations


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

> The second question is whether lapdancing clubs should be licensed under public entertainment licences or a different kind of licence such as the kind used for sex shops and adult cinemas.


This would make sense if you had a morals-based agenda.

The whole idea of different licences for businesses depending on the absence or presence of a sexual element, smacks of that same morals-based agenda.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> This would make sense if you had a morals-based agenda.
> 
> The whole idea of different licences for businesses depending on the absence or presence of a sexual element, smacks of that same morals-based agenda.



Licences and regulations very commonly have a morals-based agenda. What you mean is, the one you assume they must have here is not one you agree with.


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> This would make sense if you had a morals-based agenda.
> 
> The whole idea of different licences for businesses depending on the absence or presence of a sexual element, smacks of that same morals-based agenda.




I don't know about that, to be honest.

I'm reliably informed that a lot more than merely watching porno films goes on at sex cinemas, for example, if you know what I mean. Let's jsut say that there's a certain level of audience participation involved, which may be the real reason why sex cinemas are licensed differently to lap dancing clubs.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Fuck me indeed
> 
> They are not ''my'' regulations.
> 
> ...





> Ok so to answer the question. More regulation and tougher licenses? No way. To me that sounds like a 'nosey parker/curtain twitchin' approach. No offence. Let them get on with it, or open your own business and advertise it as 'a job that's not lapdancing' and hire away. innit like.



Well I also answered your question but you don't seem interested in that


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No it doesn't, because I'm not talking about statutory safety regulations, I'm talking about licences being granted on the basis of the company concerned adhering to stated behaviour.



I was a little quick off the mark on that quote but if your going to bring up other industries I think it's important to highlight their differences.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Can I point out that there is no such thing as ''Badger Kitten's draft regulations.''

There are no ''draft regulations.''

There are public entertainment licences, which are regulated, and other licences for other kinds of business. 

I have nothing to do with handing them out, or with drafting them.

If businesses breach the terms of their licences then new licences or tougher regulation is required. Not ''oh well people can go work somewhere else''. That holds whether it is a fish-gutting facvtory or an abbatoir or a toxic waste disposal unit or a brewery or a lap dancing joint or a cabaret theatre.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *I think there should be tougher regulation *and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.
> a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population
> b) to have them further out of town
> c) to strictly enforce the no-touching rule
> ...



Um....


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Can I point out that there is no such thing as ''Badger Kitten's draft regulations.''
> 
> There are no ''draft regulations.''
> 
> ...



The rules are there, yes, but if they're not being enforced properly then they're no use at all. I wonder whether or not the right palms are being greased to turn a blind eye to such lax enforcement as the London Met's Vice Squad once achieved a less than enviable reputation in the area of corruption during the 60's and 70's.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> Well I also answered your question but you don't seem interested in that



Well you jumped in and said I was a woman-hater, curtain twitcher and nosey parker, when I expressed concern about girls working in licensed clubs that banned touching getting pressurised into finger fucking each other to get tips because the licence rules to protect them, weren't being enforced.

And I think it's bad to call people woman haters with no reason. Misogynists rape women, beat women, torment and hurt women, don't pay women fairly, treat them with contempt, think of them as less than men, despised.

Misogyny is as shitty as racism.

You called me that: with no reason,so forgive me if I sound kind of fucked off with you right now


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

> Ok so to answer the question. More regulation and tougher licenses? No way. To me that sounds like a 'nosey parker/curtain twitchin' approach.



It sounds like more like the usual femnazi rubbish.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Fuck me indeed
> 
> They are not ''my'' regulations..



But the regulations mentioned way back at post number 2 or 3, and the only ones mentioned at the outset of the thread, were:




> 06-10-2008, 13:25
> Badger Kitten
> after a quiet life   Join Date: Feb 2005
> Location: never you mind
> ...



Or did I miss something?


----------



## Sweaty Betty (Oct 7, 2008)

That dude was so trying to pretend he never got a hard on- made my night watching him act for the sake of experimental purposes!!!!


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Well you jumped in and said I was a woman-hater, curtain twitcher and nosey parker, when I expressed concern about girls working in licensed clubs that banned touching getting pressurised into finger fucking each other to get tips because the licence rules to protect them, weren't being enforced.
> 
> And I think it's bad to call people woman haters with no reason. Misogynists rape women, beat women, torment and hurt women, don't pay women fairly, treat them with contempt, think of them as less than men, despised.
> 
> ...



My aren't you precious  you cited misogyny to another poster on this thread so cut the outrage.  I think your original points may have been valid but they have been lost by the sheer fact you wouldn't listen to anyone on this thread that disagreed with you. 

I'm off to 'the club' to have a lemonade and watch some fanny lickin'


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

XR75 said:


> It sounds like more like the usual femnazi rubbish.



''Feminazi'' = Godwin's law, section 34, para 2,.

FAIL>


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Licences and regulations very commonly have a morals-based agenda. What you mean is, the one you assume they must have here is not one you agree with.



I think we've been working to try to eliminate that, given that the 'morals' involved, are usually christian-based.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Have we come up with a reason why, if lapdancing clubs are in breach of their licences, the dancers should just grin and bear it or get another job, then?


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> ''Feminazi'' = Godwin's law, section 34, para 2,.
> 
> FAIL>



Ok how about feminutter.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I think we've been working to try to eliminate that, given that the 'morals' involved, are usually christian-based.



What, for regulations in general?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> My aren't you precious  you cited misogyny to another poster on this thread so cut the outrage.  I think your original points may have been valid but they have been lost by the sheer fact you wouldn't listen to anyone on this thread that disagreed with you.
> 
> I'm off to 'the club' to have a lemonade and watch some fanny lickin'




I took exception to personal attacks on a thread. Do enjoy paying £20 to watch someone feign interest in you. I have  nothing but admiration for her professionalism.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

XR75 said:


> Ok how about feminutter.




*yawn*, what honed and original debating skillz


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

XR75 said:


> Ok how about feminutter.



Oh leave it out.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I took exception to personal attacks on a thread. Do enjoy paying £20 to watch someone feign interest in you. I have  nothing but admiration for her professionalism.



It was shut!  Some dowdy chick with a homemade sign parading out front banging on about women just wanting to dance and how fanny licking has blighted the proud art of lap dancing


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> My aren't you precious  you cited misogyny to another poster on this thread so cut the outrage.  I think your original points may have been valid but they have been lost by the sheer fact you wouldn't listen to anyone on this thread that disagreed with you.
> 
> I'm off to 'the club' to have a lemonade and watch some fanny lickin'



If you keep up with all this disagreeing, you'll be a possible candidate to be poster number 3 to be put on ignore by Badger Kitten, on this thread alone.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Have we come up with a reason why, if lapdancing clubs are in breach of their licences, the dancers should just grin and bear it or get another job, then?



No. Tbh, the thread seems to be more and more going towards abuse towards BK. Which lets face it, isn't that uncommon on here. Female poster voices concerns regarding issues of exploitation in the sex industry and gets personally attacked by a proportion of the male respondents, either as their main argument or as occasional digs from the side. No wonder there are women on here who don't really want to post so much about this sort of thing. 

I'm interested if those who seem to be arguing for minimal regulations actually see any potential for harm towards the workers, or any other groups. Because it doesn't seem it, but then I know things get polarised in these sorts of arguments.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What, for regulations in general?



No....... For the ones you were talking about, and about which I responded.




> 07-10-2008, 12:55
> FridgeMagnet
> strike upwards   Join Date: Jan 2001
> Location: internets
> ...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If you keep up with all this disagreeing, you'll be a possible candidate to be poster number 3 to be put on ignore by Badger Kitten, on this thread alone.




In real life and on bulletin boards, I ignore/don't engage  those who are incapable of engaging in debate but instead resort to lies, smears, abuse and insults. What is the point of engaging with them?


Most adults do the same.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> In real life and on bulletin boards, I ignore/don't engage  those who are incapable of engaging in debate but instead resort to lies, smears, abuse and insults. What is the point of engaging with them?
> 
> 
> Most adults do the same.



Now now, sour grapes


----------



## Terry Tibbs (Oct 7, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> No. Tbh, the thread seems to be more and more going towards abuse towards BK. Which lets face it, isn't that uncommon on here. Female poster voices concerns regarding issues of exploitation in the sex industry and gets personally attacked by a proportion of the male respondents, either as their main argument or as occasional digs from the side. No wonder there are women on here who don't really want to post so much about this sort of thing.
> 
> I'm interested if those who seem to be arguing for minimal regulations actually see any potential for harm towards the workers, or any other groups. Because it doesn't seem it, but then I know things get polarised in these sorts of arguments.



Quite - a large proportion of the men on this thread are total fucking morons, particularly that useless flap of skin from Canada. I would put him in a mincing machine and be done with it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> In real life and on bulletin boards, I ignore/don't engage  those who are incapable of engaging in debate but instead resort to lies, smears, abuse and insults. What is the point of engaging with them?
> 
> 
> Most adults do the same.



So like, if you try to state your opinion honestly and reasonably, and you don't get listened to, and instead get ridiculed, you should put those people on ignore?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Terry Tibbs said:


> Quite - a large proportion of the men on this thread are total fucking morons, particularly that useless flap of skin from Canada. I would put him in a mincing machine and be done with it.




Have a nice day.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No....... For the ones you were talking about, and about which I responded.



I was talking about workplace licences and regulations in general. They all have moral reasons behind them, usually relating to whether it is considered reasonable that people have to put up with certain working conditions in any circumstance, things like "bartenders should not have to put up with sexual harassment".

This is really exhausting, is it noddy politics day?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> No. Tbh, the thread seems to be more and more going towards abuse towards BK. .



Some men are disagreeing with a female.

It must be misogynistic abuse.


Circle the wagons!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Terry Tibbs said:


> Quite - a large proportion of the men on this thread are total fucking morons, particularly that useless flap of skin from Canada. I would put him in a mincing machine and be done with it.



You do seem a little familiar though.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I was talking about workplace licences and regulations in general. They all have moral reasons behind them, usually relating to whether it is considered reasonable that people have to put up with certain working conditions in any circumstance, things like "bartenders should not have to put up with sexual harassment".
> 
> This is really exhausting, is it noddy politics day?



Talking with you, one certainly gets that impression.

No, regulations in the employment sphere aren't mostly morals based.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Some men are disagreeing with a female.
> 
> It must be misogynistic abuse.
> 
> ...



Disagreeing isn't a problem. Becoming abusive or resorting to digs is. And sorry, but it's not uncommon on these sorts of threads. I've had some people resort to some very personal (and untrue) insults, usually relating to my womanhood, in these sorts of threads in the past. What a wonder that I'm less motivated to post on these subjects these days.

Though I don't agree with Terry's comments either. No point complaining about personal abuse whilst adding to it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is really exhausting,



Is it really all that exhausting? I don't usually find thinking, to be that much hard work.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Have we come up with a reason why, if lapdancing clubs are in breach of their licences, the dancers should just grin and bear it or get another job, then?




except that the women were propositioning the men 
he was the one who was grinning and bearing it.  or so he claimed 

It didn't seem like a free for all anything goes situation

in most of the footage is seemed that the women made sure that he kept his hands by his side or on his lap and for most of the instances the "no touch" rule was upheld, but the 3 foot rule was not 

The no touch rule, for the men, seems to me to be the most important thing. If a woman acts in a lewd way in front of a man who is not allowed to touch her I don't really think it's a big deal.  3 foot or 3 inches, to me the main thing is the rule that the men are not allowed to touch the women. 


The 3 foot rule seems faintly ridiculous to me.  Reminiscent of the no movement rules in the days of the soho of the 60s where strippers had to pose motionless once they were topless, usually as part of a complex tableau.   If they moved then they were at risk of being arrested.  A very British situation.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Disagreeing isn't a problem. Becoming abusive or resorting to digs is. And sorry, but it's not uncommon on these sorts of threads. I've had some people resort to some very personal (and untrue) insults, usually relating to my womanhood, in these sorts of threads in the past. What a wonder that I'm less motivated to post on these subjects these days.
> .



I find personal digs to be pretty much of a commonplace around here. Do you only notice it when it's directed at a female?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No, regulations in the employment sphere aren't mostly morals based.



Which ones aren't?


----------



## Maltin (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> But London is a big city, it also has a financial area and Chinatown and Brick lane and Old Compton St and Soho, and when you go to those areas, you know what you get.
> 
> Newquay isn't a big town. Blackpool isn't. Does Newquay need 5 places? Does Blackpool need 12? *Does Ipswich need 7?*


Are you suggesting that Ipswich has 7 lapdancing clubs? 

They keep them well hidden if it does. Where are you getting this duff information from? What else are they misinforming you about?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I find personal digs to be pretty much of a commonplace around here. Do you only notice it when it's directed at a female?



No.

But I do notice that on these sorts of threads, there's often a large proportion of male posters throwing them, and being the first or the only ones to throw them, at the main female poster arguing.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

*Originally Posted by Badger Kitten  
I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.*

My PERSONAL opinion - but ALSO the premise of the TV documentary in the title of the thread. Also, a far from unusual opinion, which is why this is being debated at local and national level, in numerous towns and cities, with representations made to local and national government. See Google news
It is not a controversial, unusual or out-there opinion. It is an opinion shared by many men and women of all ages and political persuasions including many who would in no way describe themselves as 'feminists'


*a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population*

This would be the case if they were on a different type of licence, not a public ents licence. So not particularly controversial.

*b) to have them further out of town*


Again, see above and chimes with repeeated instances of local residents objecting in towns all over the UK. As i stated, and as the programme showed, local residents have almost no rights of veto under the current licensing scheme. Should people who lives somewhere and pay taxes not get a say in how their town is run and what goes on in it? How is that controversial or unfair?


*c) to strictly enforce the no-touching rule*

That is ALREADY in the licences which they have signed.

*d) to ban simulated sex shows ( or real sex shows)*

That is also ALREADY in the licences which they have signed.
*
e) to ensure both punters and dancers are not exploited. Codes of conduct should be adhered to - if the club turns a blind eye to touching, and full or simulated sex acts, and some dancers do it, the pressure is on all dancers to do it, and many do not want to. *

That is basic worker protection/worker rights and hardly controversial either.


Now I really do not see why, for voicing these reasonable, not-especially-controversial points, I should get a tirade of abuse,

and I wonder if it would have been different if I had posted under a male poster's log in?

I've not said shut the clubs, I've not expressed any position to the dancers other than wanting them to not be pressurised and exploited into having to do stuff the establishment is specifically prohibited from doing, and I've said I understand why local townspeople would feel uncomfortable with several big lapdancing clubs opening in the main social space, especially in a small town.

There s is no need to attack anyone making these points, whether they are male or female, and these points are reasonable and not uncommon.

I think the abuse dished out tells a lot  about the posters dishing it. And I think it is a shame.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Which ones aren't?



Health and safety. Hours of work. Overtime pay. Entitlement to vacation. etc. etc. etc.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Health and safety. Hours of work. Overtime pay. Entitlement to vacation. etc. etc. etc.



Those are almost entirely based around moral issues. Is it right that people should be exposed to danger and risk to health? Is it right that they should work hours that are bad for them? etc. etc. etc.

Maybe they should just get another job if they don't like it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> [
> 
> Now I really do not see why, for voicing these reasonable, not-especially-controversial points, I should get a tirade of abuse,
> 
> and I wonder if it would have been different if I had posted under a male poster's log in?.



If you enjoy paranoia, go on thinking that.

I for one would have been equally vociferous, if not moreso, if it was a male poster. No, it wouldn't be moreso, it would be exactly the same.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *Originally Posted by Badger Kitten
> I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.*
> 
> My PERSONAL opinion - but ALSO the premise of the TV documentary in the title of the thread. Also, a far from unusual opinion, which is why this is being debated at local and national level, in numerous towns and cities, with representations made to local and national government. *See Google news*



That is sooo funny and pretty much sums up your whole, um....debate?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Those are almost entirely based around moral issues. Is it right that people should be exposed to danger and risk to health? Is it right that they should work hours that are bad for them? etc. etc. etc.



Come on: you're not a simpleton. Stop pretending that you are. You know what I mean. At least, I hope you do.


----------



## pk (Oct 7, 2008)

All these clubs need is to be visited regularly by civil servants.

Oh...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Come on: you're not a simpleton. Stop pretending that you are. You know what I mean. At least, I hope you do.



I have no idea what you're talking about. Workplace safety has nothing to do with morality, ethical principles? _What?_


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> Have we come up with a reason why, if lapdancing clubs are in breach of their licences, the dancers should just grin and bear it or get another job, then?



Are their always licenses being breached when they are doing something they might have to grin and bear.



> Oh leave it out.



I wasn't aiming it at anyone here but this topics got as much to do with feminists dictating as it does with so called workers rights.





			
				Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> Female poster voices concerns regarding issues of exploitation in the sex industry and gets personally attacked by a proportion of the male respondents, either as their main argument or as occasional digs from the side.



Posters get attacked over other arguments on this forum i.e conspiracy theories etc.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *
> I've not said shut the clubs, I've not expressed any position to the dancers other than wanting them to not be pressurised and exploited into having to do stuff the establishment is specifically prohibited from doing, and I've said I understand why local townspeople would feel uncomfortable with several big lapdancing clubs opening in the main social space, especially in a small town.
> *


*

You should open up your own 'Fair Trade' lapdancing club.  Once the punters see how much better it is, what with just the dancing and all, the other seedier clubs wont stand a chance  You could call it Badger Kitten's Dance Studio *


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

XR75 said:


> Posters get attacked over other arguments on this forum i.e conspiracy theories etc.



You think speculating about possible exploitation in the sex industry is equivilant to conspiracy theories? 

Fucking hell, has the backlash really been this powerful?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *Originally Posted by Badger Kitten
> I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.*
> 
> My PERSONAL opinion - but ALSO the premise of the TV documentary in the title of the thread. Also, a far from unusual opinion, which is why this is being debated at local and national level, in numerous towns and cities, with representations made to local and national government. See Google news
> ...



But when you set out these regs back at post 3, you didn't include all the caveats and explanations that you're now putting in.

You just put them out there, in a manner that would lead the average reader, to a conclusion that these were what you thought the rules should be, in your opinion. There was no mention back then, as to whether or not these were the rules in existence at the time, as opposed to your wish list.


Now, a couple of hundred posts later, you bring out the caveats and disclaimers.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> There was no mention back then, as to whether or not these were the rules in existence at the time, as opposed to your wish list.



Apart from the "I think there should be tougher regulations" and "my PERSONAL opinion" bits.

How could anyone possibly assume that those were rules in existence?


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2008)

I have to side with Badger Kitten on this one, partly because her position seems pretty reasonable to me and partly because of the baiting she's getting from what seems like the more Neanderthal elements here.

If the rules, which are supposed to be there for the protection of the girls dancing, aren't being enforced properly then a certain degree of exploitation is always going to be on the cards. Personally, I can't imagine a greater turnoff than watching someone effectively being pushed into sex acts, be they simulated or real, that they may not either like or want to do for the benefit of some beered up lads on a stag weekend or whatever. It simply doesn't do anything for me and, franky, I'd be a little worried about myself if I did enjoy it.

If there are dancers who have to indulge in lesbian acts, real or fake, when the don't want to then that sounds pretty exploitative to me.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. Workplace safety has nothing to do with morality, ethical principles? _What?_



Yes, Fridge Magnet, all interaction between people is, or should be governed by Jesus' Golden Rule.

So yes, everything is about morality.

But.....we're talking about a different species of morality. The prescriptive side of Christianity, that tells us what is evil, what will get us into heaven vs hell.

Sex outside of wedlock is sin. Sin is evil. Sexual displays are evil.

That sort of thing. That is a different species of morality to the 'Golden Rule' type. It's more 'old testament', than 'new testament', and it is the morality behind regulations that try to cast any sex  oriented business into the outer darkness.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Apart from the "I think there should be tougher regulations" and "my PERSONAL opinion" bits.
> 
> How could anyone possibly assume that those were rules in existence?



Are you drunk this evening?


----------



## Gmart (Oct 7, 2008)

As ever driving any industry underground is highly unlikely to improve the rights and conditions of the workers themselves.

Of course depends on whether the workers are your priority...


----------



## XR75 (Oct 7, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> You think speculating about possible exploitation in the sex industry is equivilant to conspiracy theories?
> 
> Fucking hell, has the backlash really been this powerful?



You can replace conspiracy theories with any other heated topic in my reply to your passive agressive comment.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 7, 2008)

XR75 said:


> You can replace conspiracy theories with any other heated topic in my reply to your passive agressive comment.



If you think that's passive agressive perhaps you should get a dictionary.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, Fridge Magnet, all interaction between people is, or should be governed by Jesus' Golden Rule.
> 
> So yes, everything is about morality.
> 
> ...



No, _you_ are talking about that; _we_ aren't. You're the one ascribing that motivation here, for reasons best known to yourself but presumably because you can't see how anyone could object to any possible sexually-related behaviour without being an irrational fundamentalist.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 7, 2008)

I share some of BK's concerns but I think there will be serious problems and consequences for the existing dancers if the license situation changes suddenly

I am dismayed by how some posters seem to take delight in attacking BK in a very aggressive way

Can you not just express your opinion without being so rude?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But when you set out these regs back at post 3, you didn't include all the caveats and explanations that you're now putting in.
> 
> You just put them out there, in a manner that would lead the average reader, to a conclusion that these were what you thought the rules should be, in your opinion. There was no mention back then, as to whether or not these were the rules in existence at the time, as opposed to your wish list.
> 
> ...




The show was on live at the time.

There are many threads in the TV forum about shows which are on at the time and which posters contribute to as they watch. It was not a thread in the general forum, about a more general issue. The title made it pretty clear.

Posting as a show airs means you don't normally bother explaining what it is you are watching; as I said, the thread title made it clear and should have been a clue to you


I was posting as the show was on, the show which explained all this licensing stuff. It's also been all over the UK news. You couldn't see the show, nor do you live in the UK,or read our local press,  as I pointed out, so you jumping into the thread about a show you weren't watching, re. an issue in the news of a country you don't live in, was always going to be a bit difficult for you, as I pointed out, and I explained the show was about the licensing stuff, repeatedly.

So please don't come whinging to me that you didn't get it. It was made clear and you carried on with all your little digs about god-bothering and banning fornication - that was your choice and if you look like an arse now you find out that you missed the whole point of the programme you never saw, and the thread about it, tough luck bud.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Are you drunk this evening?



You were actually confused "as to whether or not these were the rules in existence at the time, as opposed to your wish list"? Really? Given those disclaimers?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I am dismayed by how some posters seem to take delight in attacking BK in a very aggressive way
> 
> Can you not just express your opinion without being so rude?



You know, I read some of the shit that people say to me, and I wonder the same thing.

((((((Badger Kitten)))))))


----------



## Gmart (Oct 7, 2008)

People often see what they want to see, even to the point of ignoring evidence to the contrary either willfully or not. (Thinker-Prover)

At least with religion it is called a step of faith and is recognised as such, even if vast amounts of circumstantial evidence is touted as fact.

With conspiracy theories it still requires a step of faith of sorts. there is no concrete proof and so the same amount of circumstantial rubbish is touted as fact.

At least with this subject it would be possible to conduct decent studies, but consensus would still take years or decades to come to - so the default position needs to be to empower the workers as much as possible, and just let them get on with it.

Telling people they are victims when a significant number of them claim not to be, is, as ever, authoritarian and should be rejected especially when the person spouting this rubbish goes on about 'society' suffering; (ie failing to identify a victim and so falling back on that bullshit...)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You were actually confused "as to whether or not these were the rules in existence at the time, as opposed to your wish list"? Really? Given those disclaimers?



I have no confusion as to how post 3 reads.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I have no confusion as to how post 3 reads.



...

And were you actually confused "as to whether or not these were the rules in existence at the time, as opposed to your wish list"?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

Gmarthews said:


> People often see what they want to see, even to the point of ignoring evidence to the contrary either willfully or not. (Thinker-Prover)
> 
> At least with religion it is called a step of faith and is recognised as such, even if vast amounts of circumstantial evidence is touted as fact.
> 
> ...





First mention of 'victim' on the entire thread, as far as  know.

Establishments that breach licencing rules should get called on it. Hardly bloody controversial.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Establishments that breach licencing rules should get called on it. Hardly bloody controversial.



But it's apparently more than that as far as you're concerned.

You said that such establishments change the tone of the village center, or words to that effect.

I think you also said something like 'people don't need to be able to see simulated lesbian sex in the town center', or words to that effect.

That sounds like something a bit more than just concern about the breach of licencing rules.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 7, 2008)

If you had watched the programme which the thread was about and read my posts and not come at this with your own agenda there would be a point to continuing to go over this with you 

but you didn't
and you haven't
and so what's the point? 

I'm off to discuss the US Presidential debate on another board I subscribe to, I've been looking forward to it all day and this thread is palling like Palin for me right now.

If you want to find out what I think, and what the show said, and what other people in the UK think, then go read it for yourself.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

These were your exact words, from post 1.



> I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.
> 
> I would prefer to see more regulation and tougher licences.



I don't think it's yet been made clear, why getting a lap dance shouldn't be as easy to obtain, as getting a curry.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> If you had watched the programme which the thread was about and read my posts and not come at this with your own agenda there would be a point to continuing to go over this with you
> 
> but you didn't
> and you haven't
> ...



Does this mean I'm off ignore?

I feel like a human yo-yo.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> If you had watched the programme which the thread was about and read my posts and not come at this with your own agenda there would be a point to continuing to go over this with you
> .



What I've done, is provide the most consistent and reasoned disputation to what you've said. 

Really: what would be the point of going over such a thing with me?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 7, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Have we come up with a reason why, if lapdancing clubs are in breach of their licences, the dancers should just grin and bear it or get another job, then?



Because quite often the girls themselves _want_ to breach those rules, and the rules are completely unrealistic?

As I said earlier, there are lots of girls out there working in this industry who know exactly what it involves, and make an informed choice to work in that way.

It's how you bridge the gap between these girls and those being pressured that's the issue here, no?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2008)

Lapdancing should begin at home.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

What is the difference between a lap dance and a table dance?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Because quite often the girls themselves _want_ to breach those rules



What, they think "I'm dancing in front of this bloke but I'd feel so much better if he had his hands on my arse"?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> What is the difference between a lap dance and a table dance?



To you, five dollars, you have a nice face.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> To you, five dollars, you have a nice face.



Missed your vocation you have.


----------



## pk (Oct 8, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But when you set out these regs back at post 3, you didn't include all the caveats and explanations that you're now putting in.
> 
> You just put them out there, in a manner that would lead the average reader, to a conclusion that these were what you thought the rules should be, in your opinion. There was no mention back then, as to whether or not these were the rules in existence at the time, as opposed to your wish list.
> 
> ...



Is it any wonder?

You are badgering Badger Kitten, you're taxing her, you're just making hassle for the sake of it. 

I'm not even going to try and be funny or call you rude names or give it the trite "you're better than this, JC" because I'm being perfectly serious, fact is you're being a prick, deliberately, and you're not being a gentleman. Sort yourself out or shut up.

And I'd love to know if your wife was reading what you post here, especially this thread.

Picking on the self-appointed moral guardians who mince about on this site is one thing, but cutting down someone who's trying to make a really valid point in the crap way you're doing it is just fucking disappointing to say the least. Show some respect or shut the fuck up, Canuck.


----------



## pk (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Missed your vocation you have.



What precisely is _your_ vocation in life, if you don't mind me asking?

You appear well travelled, but there's always the rolling stone/moss syndrome with you isn't there?

Don't give much of a fuck, in all honesty, but it was worth posing the question at ten to two on a Wednesday morning, I thought.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

pk said:


> What precisely is _your_ vocation in life, if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> You appear well travelled, but there's always the rolling stone/moss syndrome with you isn't there?
> 
> Don't give much of a fuck, in all honesty, but it was worth posing the question at ten to two on a Wednesday morning, I thought.



What's "the rolling stone/moss syndrome?"  

I make my money in various ways.

Tell me yours and I'll tell you mine.


----------



## pk (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> What's "the rolling stone/moss syndrome?"
> 
> I make my money in various ways.
> 
> Tell me yours and I'll tell you mine.



Rolling Stones and Moss? You don't know that one?

There were photos in last week's Sunday People.

Don't you keep up with the showbiz goss?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

pk said:


> Rolling Stones and Moss? You don't know that one?
> 
> There were photos in last week's Sunday People.
> 
> Don't you keep up with the showbiz goss?



Fraid not.  And since you ask, I'm presently living off money from a book advance and failing to write the book by spending too much time on here. 

Your turn.


----------



## pk (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Fraid not.  And since you ask, I'm presently living off money from a book advance and failing to write the book by spending too much time on here.
> 
> Your turn.



I don't pay the ferryman until he gets me to the other side.

I don't accept advances in my account unless it's to pay my people and I don't fail on account of this site being an easy distraction.

Have you never heard the expression ' a rolling stone gathers no moss?".


----------



## HarrisonSlade (Oct 8, 2008)

I',m going to sound quite the moralist here, but my point has more to do with hypocricy than moralism.

As with many other red blooded males, I found some of the scenes quite a turn on. I then got to realising that I was watching porn. Not only was I watching porn, I was watching porn that I was told was sinister and sleazy - which made it even more erotic. I then questioned why Dispatches would have made such a documentary - What was their goal, and who actually gets stung by this doc? 

Prostitution in lap dancing clubs? Well I never. It's been going on in these establishments for years. Funnily enough, they never mentioned what goes on in Spearmint Rhino, and how murder and rape is covered up by the powers that be.

All it was was one big advert, making these places look like fun.

And how many people were let off the hook? Apparently, Tessa Jowell helped relax the licensing laws, because her Government wanted a more libertarian society.   New Labour? Libertarian? These guys wouldn't know freedom from a toffee apple. 

Tessa Jowell is in league, along with her husband (or is it apparently ex nowadays?), with some pretty shady characters. Her involvement with the mafia, through the Italian President is not too hard to spot, since David Mills used to fiddle the books for them. She is tied to many foreign businesses, including table dancing clubs and casinos, and she has steam rollered each one into Britain, whether the people like it or not. She is absolutely shameless with her sleazy, corrupt affairs, and has constantly silenced the press over the business deals of David Mills. 

The real truth of why we have these clubs opening left right and centre will never be exposed by Channel 4, because a) they have too much to lose, and b) it doesn't make for cheap entertainment.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Tbf I agree that you probably can't divorce the sexual aspect of pole dancing with fitness poledancing, at least not at the current time. Why do people like it? Surely it's at least a bit about the make believe of being a (glamorous) stripper, even if the person would never dream of doing it in front of that sort of appreciative audience.
> 
> The things we do in make believe are telling, particularly about gender relations. I remember despite being a relative tomboy child, I'd still have the occasional childhood fantasies about being a bride and would put a lace doily on my head. As I got older, my pre-teenage friends would start play dressing up as sexy women. I'm not sure boys really did that - they just pretended to be astronauts and things.
> 
> After growing up, I still think that women play around more with those types of roles than men. Which ties in to patriarchy and my earlier reflection on how we have a massive mainstream sex industry where one gender services another.



Pretty much exactly.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> And I think it's bad to call people woman haters with no reason. Misogynists rape women, beat women, torment and hurt women, don't pay women fairly, treat them with contempt, think of them as less than men, despised.
> 
> Misogyny is as shitty as racism.
> 
> You called me that: with no reason,so forgive me if I sound kind of fucked off with you right now



You fucking hypocrite...

..you have very little qualms in calling other people it. For no reason.



Badger Kitten said:


> Careful, your unpleasant misogyny is showing.



But of course, by putting people on ignore, you get to pretend you aren't one of the biggest self-righteous, self-promoting, self-centred hypocrites that I've ever had the misfortune to know.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 8, 2008)

HarrisonSlade said:


> All it was was one big advert, making these places look like fun.



Exactly.. this is the kind of insidious media pressure that I'm talking about.... a lot of programmes that claim to be an 'expose' of the exploitation in these clubs actually end up promoting them.. making them seem normal... seem fun.

Ably assisted by the likes of BK and her fun 'classes'.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> You fucking hypocrite...
> 
> ..you have very little qualms in calling other people it. For no reason.
> 
> ...



I said your misogyny was showing because of the sneering, contemptuous way you have spoken about women dancing on this thread - and on the other one

And I stand by it; to denigrate women who make their own choices and dance for their own pleasure as uniformly 'bored housewives' ( now there's a telling keyword - I don't know anyone who is a 'housewife') and 'muppets' and 'stupid' showing their 'snatches' and to keep going on about 'open legs' and all the other language you choose to use does come over as  misogynistic. Maybe you don't mean it to be. Maybe you do. 

But then, by your own admission, you used to go to Browns a lot on corporate jollies to see 'a snatch from this angle...a snatch from that angle' and I have to say that looks like it has coloured your views. You arrogantly judge other women who dance for their own fun as being just the same as the 'stupid girls' - your words - in the clubs. 'Muppets' you called them.

You are completely and utterly unwilling to accept that women learning pole or burlesque might be interested in exploring the dance form for a million reasons, and that pole exercise classes are not remotely like stripping in a club. Most strippers don't do any pole spins and inversions at all. They get too many bruises and it's easier just to wriggle about near the pole. Perhaps that's all you've ever seen in clubs. It's not what goes on in fitness pole classes. I wouldn't care that you got  it wrong  - why should you know unless you trouble to find out - but it's the language, the contempt that drips in the words you choose to use.




> That'll probably be flatulance from hanging upside down with your legs apart for so long...



You have said that  poledancing is about 'showing things only a gynecologist should see.' ....'snatch from this angle...snatch from that angle...wares...' - you keep going on and on about open legs - in a way that just comes over as contemptuous.

To you, poll dancing is all about a woman spreading her legs and showing her genetalia. You've made that clear again and again. Perhaps that is what it is to you. Perhaps that's why you kept going back.

I've explained about the diference between stripping and pole exercise classes, boxercise and prize-fighting, belly-dancing and harem slavery. But you won't have it.  And you lose no time in jumping in with cheap insults.

You've made up your mind even though you've never been to a pole class or spoken to anyone who's been to one. You label women who do it, that's misogynistic.

My opinion: I think the contempt is secretly for yourself, as someone who used to go to Browns and was involved with a dancer ( going my your last thread incarnation). If you are projecting your own stuff about being 'stupid and exploited' as a punter onto women who pole dance for whatever reason in whatever venue, there you go, that's misogynistic.

There's an interesting correlation between the posters on here who are quick to jump in with the insults and the ones who support unregulated, anything goes lap dancing.

I don't 'know' you so I have no idea why you are claiming you 'know' me, and how the fuck is it 'self-promoting' to post on the TV forum of urban under an pseudonym? 

Meanwhile, Homeless mal bizarrely called me 'misogynistic' for discussing licensing rules in lap dancing clubs. 

It's not misogynistic to wonder about lap dancing licensing, ffs.
This thread has shown me a lot about the way some men on urban think. 

It's ugly.


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> It's not misogynistic to wonder about lap dancing licensing, ffs.
> This thread has shown me a lot about the way some men on urban think.
> 
> It's ugly.



I was being facetious and deliberately obtuse


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

pk said:


> I don't pay the ferryman until he gets me to the other side.



Are we talking Charon here?



pk said:


> I don't accept advances in my account unless it's to pay my people



Well I do because if I didn't get advances I wouldn't have the leisure to do the writing.  Some of us have to work for a living.



pk said:


> I don't fail on account of this site being an easy distraction.



I haven't missed a book deadline yet, but I'm cutting it veeeery close this time.



pk said:


> Have you never heard the expression ' a rolling stone gathers no moss?".



Who needs moss anyway?

BTW are you pissed?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> This thread has shown me a lot about the way some men on urban think.
> 
> It's ugly.



But surely you wouldn't deny that arousing male lust is a very important aim of pole dancing?  And belly-dancing?  And dancing in general?  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it seems naive to say that pole-dancing is just about keeping fit.  But maybe that's not what you're saying?


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Are we talking Charon here?



... and pk is quite outclassed


----------



## Crispy (Oct 8, 2008)

Depends if there are men around when you do it, I suppose


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 8, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What, they think "I'm dancing in front of this bloke but I'd feel so much better if he had his hands on my arse"?



No, they think " I'm dancing in front of this bloke 3 feet away, but I'd get a shitload more money if I was dancing an inch away, whilst pretending to go down on my mate"

And if they are OK with that, why shouldn't they?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 8, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> No, they think " I'm dancing in front of this bloke 3 feet away, but I'd get a shitload more money if I was dancing an inch away, whilst pretending to go down on my mate"
> 
> And if they are OK with that, why shouldn't they?


If only life was that simple.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> But surely you wouldn't deny that arousing male lust is a very important aim of pole dancing?  And belly-dancing?  And dancing in general?  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it seems naive to say that pole-dancing is just about keeping fit.  But maybe that's not what you're saying?



How can a woman in a class full of fully-clothed women with no men in the studio be dancing to 'arouse male lust'?

If I want to arouse my husband's lust I don't get on a bus and travel 3 miles to a cold dance studio where he is not allowed through the door!

Dancing with other women is fun and makes you feel good but so does going to a combat class or playing tennis or any other kind of high-energy group activity.

There's a certain element of playfulness when dancing - and yeah, there's some camping it up with high kicks and shimmying - and there's a different vibe in a belly dancing class - or flamenco class  - or pole class to a step class or a yoga class - because ALL dance is performance orientated and yoga and step aerobics are not.

It is possible to do an achingly seductive and erotic flamenco routine, or ballet routine - it is possible to do a  kick-ass, high-speed not-erotic-at-all pole routine.

You can also strip naked and do an erotic flamenco dance, ballet dance or pole dance. (In fact I think a nude dancer just wearing ballet pointe shoes, or a nude flamenco dancer with a fringed shawl could be much more erotic than the standard bump and grind you see in clubs but I digress.)

It's all about how you use your body and the intention of the dancer - and what she is trying to communicate to the audience - and who the audience are.

In a pole class the audience is the women themselves. What they are aiming for is grace, strength, the ability to pull off tricks like hanging upsidedown, and to gain body strength and cardio fitness.






In a strip club the pole dancer is on stage, semi-naked, using the pole to show off her body and encourage men to tip her for a private nude dance.

[insert pic of g-stringed woman sticking out her bum here]

So the two things are pretty different in how they look: both involve women and poles, but nobody watching them would be in any doubt as to how different they are.

You can dance seductively in shorts and a vest and you can dance in a silly way in shorts and a vest and you can breakdance in shorts and a vest and I think anyone watching would be able to distinguish the intention - whether it was to seduce, to amuse or to bust difficult moves.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What, they think "I'm dancing in front of this bloke but I'd feel so much better if he had his hands on my arse"?



I think they think: "If I play my cards right and maybe let him put his hands on my arse, I can milk him for even _more_ money."


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Belly dance class






Belly dancing 'to arouse lust'






Pole dance class






Pole dancing 'to arouse lust'






And so on


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

As we depart series one of Northern Town weekly, Badger Kitten stands by her protection of jobs for down-trodden women in questionable establishments whilst simultaneously being the bearer of bad tidings for all those who work in them. The mainly male crowd boo her for her antics from the side-lines as PK steps forward to be the new protector of feminism; much to the feminist's distaste.

The very fabric of communal respect in Oldham shatters, revealing once again the racial differences between those driving cabs, and the punters who once paid their wages to and from the town centre as they shift towards the industrial estates.

Since the removal of clothing became the rising industry; the cotton mills have long since shut to cater for the enterprises of the future - including the emergence of the red curtain, black paint and steel pole making where was once honest engineering for rails to send the well-heeled suggestively to and fro.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

pk said:


> Is it any wonder?
> 
> You are badgering Badger Kitten, you're taxing her, you're just making hassle for the sake of it.
> 
> ...




If it was anyone other than you, I'd tell you to fuck off and leave it at that.

I've meant everything I've said on this thread. The fact that BK has taken a wounded and defensive tone, doesn't mean that she's been abused or attacked.

It's my opinion that she has taken a moralizing stance on this issue, and so I've responded as I saw fit to respond. If you don't like that, it's unfortunate, but your approval isn't one of the things I'm seeking.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Pole dance class
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A man in a suit:






A man in a suit:






You view them as the same, though?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 8, 2008)

Huh? What's your point, I don't get it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Belly dance class
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is starting to wind me up now. I can understand the 'one gender servicing another' point that agent sparrow was making but it's now almost hitting the point where women ought to be condemned for making men feel lustful or men should be condemned for feeling that way.

Despite the fact we're genetically programmed to do so.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Huh? What's your point, I don't get it.



What's yours?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Belly dance class



Some big assumptions here. You post this picture as an example of 'non erotic' belly dancing. Why: because the women are older, and a little heavier than they might like to be? The 'erotic' picture you choose, has the traditional 'good looking woman'.

Since dance is fluid, there's no way to judge the eroticism of the moves, based upon a snapshot taken of one split second of their motions.

So you seem to be judging eroticsm based on how women look. It might just be possible that the women in the first picture view themselves as erotic beings. Maybe they're taking that class to enhance that aspect of themselves.

I'm somewhat surprised by your post.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

Some of the stuff coming out on this thread is seriously skewed.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

The programme is on again now on more 4 for anyone who is interested in the investigation into what goes on in lapdancing clubs, the terms of their licensing conditions and whether they should have public entertainment licences or another kind of licence.


Citizen 66 that last post about Bush and Clooney - I don't think you understand the point I'm making. It's not about how pretty they are.
It's what they are doing. Are they paying to attend a class and learn a dance style or are they on a stage in a club dancing to arouse men, entertain an audience and get tips?

Could anyone looking at the women learning bellydancing or pole in the photos think ''they are doing that to arouse lust in and get tips off men, who are nowhere to be seen''?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The programme is on again now on more 4 for anyone who is interested in the investigation into what goes on in lapdancing clubs, the terms of their licensing conditions and whether they should have public entertainment licences or another kind of licence.
> 
> 
> Citizen 66 that last post about Bush and Clooney - I don't think you understand the point I'm making. It's not about how pretty they are.
> ...



You've picked the pictures carefully to illustrate your point though.

Men will lust over women and women will lust after men. That was my point with the two men in suits comparison. Again, I'm not in favour of strip clubs what-so-ever. But neither should I beat myself up if my jaw hits the ground regarding the erotic pictures you used to illustrate your point.

We're genetically programmed to think that way. If that makes us misogynists then blame God I guess.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Some big assumptions here. You post this picture as an example of 'non erotic' belly dancing. Why: because the women are older, and a little heavier than they might like to be? The 'erotic' picture you choose, has the traditional 'good looking woman'.
> 
> Since dance is fluid, there's no way to judge the eroticism of the moves, based upon a snapshot taken of one split second of their motions.
> 
> ...




No, it's just the first result in google images for belly dance class on my pc and pro belly dancers tend to be fit and young, *as do most pro dancers*. 

It should be clear to all but the most ( intentionally?) obtuse that the women are smiling, having fun, doing a class together and are not dancing to entertain men and get tips which is the point I am making. 

That's what a dance class is like - that is what any fitness class is like.  A bunch of normal women who are unlikely to have the bodies of professional atheletes or dancers


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> This is starting to wind me up now. I can understand the 'one gender servicing another' point that agent sparrow was making but it's now almost hitting the point where women ought to be condemned for making men feel lustful or men should be condemned for feeling that way.
> 
> Despite the fact we're genetically programmed to do so.



I am trying to show that pole dancing  classes are not the same as pole dancing on a stage in a strip club, by posting pics to demonstrate what a pole class looks like. 

I did a long post explaining about the intention of the dancer and the context of the dance. I put up pictures to demonstrate that pole classes and stripper pole dancing are different. I put up a belly dance class and a professional entertainment dancer to illustrate it as well.

This is because certain posters seem to be unable to grasp that pole dance classes are just fitness dance classes.

*headdesk*


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> This is because certain posters seem to be unable to grasp that pole dance classes are just fitness dance classes.
> 
> *headdesk*



Well that's curious Badger Kitten, because earlier on in this thread you posted:



> I'll keep teaching women that no matter what size or shape they are, if they are old or young, have pert tits or a masectomy, are hairy or shaved, whether their belly is stretched post-pregnancy or if their ex lover told them they were boring, they are gorgeous dancers, who deserve to love themselves dancing and in my class when they shimmy, kick or can-can, belly dance or do handstands, or wiggle their butts on a pole, or hang upside down with their hair flying, then I'll cheer them, and the other women will cheer them *as the gorgeous sexual playful beauties they are *and I'll watch them walk out the door smiling and two inches taller. And I'll feel fucking proud.



I wonder why you chose to say that?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> You've picked the pictures carefully to illustrate your point though.
> 
> Men will lust over women and women will lust after men. That was my point with the two men in suits comparison. Again, I'm not in favour of strip clubs what-so-ever. But neither should I beat myself up if my jaw hits the ground regarding the erotic pictures you used to illustrate your point.
> 
> We're genetically programmed to think that way. If that makes us misogynists then blame God I guess.



No, they are just random pics of normal women doing a normal class.

I called Kismet misogynist because of the sneering language he used.

Of course  men and women fancy each other. Of course both sexes use erotic dancing to attract each other. There's nothing 'misogynist' about celebrating and recognising redblooded lust and sexual response.



I hope that everyone has now grasped the point that pole dance classes are not especially sexy - no more than any other dance class - but naturally, if the women in the class then go and use their new moves to dance sexily in a setting other than their dance class, then great for them.

However, people in a pole dance class do not spend the class groaning with horniness or fending off fivers from excited men, because there are no excited men there, because it is a fitness class. That is the point and I really don't see why it is so hard to grasp


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I am trying to show that pole dancing  classes are not the same as pole dancing on a stage in a strip club, by posting pics to demonstrate what a pole class looks like.
> 
> I did a long post explaining about the intention of the dancer and the context of the dance. I put up pictures to demonstrate that pole classes and stripper pole dancing are different. I put up a belly dance class and a professional entertainment dancer to illustrate it as well.
> 
> ...



Lol 

Okay, I'm with you on that one.

This thread has moved far too quickly for me to keep up with. I thought you were drawing a comparison with those images of me being sexually attracted to my mum as opposed to Salma Hayek...

Despite where I'm from in the north... I get your point. And I agreed earlier that pole dancing in the exercise context bears no relation to the same concept in the entertainment industry.

I'll keep my mouth shut from now on and read more.  

x


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well that's curious Badger Kitten, because earlier on in this thread you posted
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why you chose to say that?




Because - oh, maybe this is really hard for men to understand - women say stuff like ''you look gorgeous!''

''That dress makes you look so hot!It really shows off your bum!''

'' Your legs look amazing in those shoes!''

and they mean it, they are celebrating their friends' female gorgeousness. It doesn't mean they want to fuck them.

It's nice to do a class where women are encouraged to feel like beautiful goddesses. It's a female bonding thing.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

In short, pole classes are women-time, for women, by women, not for men.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> It should be clear to all but the most ( intentionally?) obtuse that the women are smiling, having fun, doing a class together and are not dancing to entertain men and get tips which is the point I am making.



You were talking about erotic vs non erotic.

I don't think the fact that the women are smiling and having fun, excludes the possibility of eroticsm. 

Eroticism needn't be hard and serious work. Smiling and having fun are allowed at the same time.

I just think you were making an unwarranted assumption when you use that first picture, as an example of the non erotic type of bellydancing.

Once again: seeing things differently from you, doesn't make a person blind nor obtuse.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> In short, pole classes are women-time, for women, by women, not for men.



I would never have argued against that point. Whoever did needs their head testing.

Women exercising on poles in the company of women normalises  pole dancing for the entertainment of men?

That's almost like arguing that men who take showers with each other after sports sessions are advocating flashing, group sex and rape tendencies...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

Pole-dancing as fitness is obviously referring in some way to pole-dancing not as fitness, just like kickboxing as fitness is referring blah blah - it's getting something from the association - but I can't quite see how it would mean that doing a pole-dancing class means you have to be fine with actual, real-world abuses of power within pole-dancing clubs. One can run with the sexy connotations of pole-dancing a bit and still object to unfair working conditions, surely? I've played a lot of Virtua Cop but I'm still opposed to arming the police; I play war games but I go on anti-war marches; you know.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well that's curious Badger Kitten, because earlier on in this thread you posted:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder why you chose to say that?



BK, reading how you say one thing, then the next day, the exact opposite, I have to ask: do you believe _any_ of the things you've said in this thread?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Pole-dancing as fitness is obviously referring in some way to pole-dancing not as fitness, just like kickboxing as fitness is referring blah blah - it's getting something from the association - but I can't quite see how it would mean that doing a pole-dancing class means you have to be fine with actual, real-world abuses of power within pole-dancing clubs. One can run with the sexy connotations of pole-dancing a bit and still object to unfair working conditions, surely? I've played a lot of Virtua Cop but I'm still opposed to arming the police; I play war games but I go on anti-war marches; you know.



Plenty of people attend shooting clubs without advocating the actions of Michael Ryan.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You were talking about erotic vs non erotic.
> 
> I don't think the fact that the women are smiling and having fun, excludes the possibility of eroticsm.
> 
> ...




Well Johnny, I've made the point in several posts now. Everyone else seems to have grasped it.

All those smiling women in their dance class, yes, of course they are lovely and erotic as humans BUT THE CLASS IS CLEARLY NOT AN EROTIC PERFORMANCE *FOR MEN*.


I can feel erotic when I'm going for a run in the sunshine, that does not mean my running in the park is AN EROTIC PERFORMANCE FOR MEN.

The women dancing are not doing an erotic performance *for men*. 

Do. You. Understand. My. Point. Now?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 8, 2008)

As I said earlier though (and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with BK btw), it is interesting though how it's generally women who explore the fantasy of pole dancing and not men. I wonder why?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> BK, reading how you say one thing, then the next day, the exact opposite, I have to ask: do you believe _any_ of the things you've said in this thread?





If you genuinely don't understand, then I'm very sorry but I am not going to keep explaining it to you - maybe you just don't get it.

How about you get your wife to read the thread?
She can explain it to you.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Plenty of people attend shooting clubs without advocating the likes of Michael Ryan.



Well quite. It seems a bit odd to say "you must disclaim any connection with anything to do with X or you are a hypocrite for talking about it"; it seems to presuppose an objection to the entire concept, rather than an objection to abuses that occur with it.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Because - oh, maybe this is really hard for men to understand - women say stuff like ''you look gorgeous!''
> 
> ''That dress makes you look so hot!It really shows off your bum!''
> 
> ...



Nonsense BK, this is ridiculous. If you were a gym instructor, you wouldn't be emphasizing the 'sexual, playful gorgeousness' of performing push-ups, and yet that's what you are saying your classes are just about 

I actually agree that dancing is not necessarily about attracting 'male lust'. That's belittling. But you have taken the wrong defence by pretending that it's just about fitness (which indeed, you've just reneged from seamlessly), it is an artistic display which should have a strong sexual element if done properly. Women can indeed do that just for themselves or for it's own sake, if 'male lust' wants to be attracted well that's just something that might come along.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 8, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well quite. It seems a bit odd to say "you must disclaim any connection with anything to do with X or you are a hypocrite for talking about it"; it seems to presuppose an objection to the entire concept, rather than an objection to abuses that occur with it.



Although, if the anology remains true to the reality, we wouldn't be condemning the actions of Michael Ryan, just those who paid good money to watch and encourage him.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> As I said earlier though (and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with BK btw), it is interesting though how it's generally women who explore the fantasy of pole dancing and not men. I wonder why?



Well, men can just go to pole-dancing clubs if they want to explore the fantasy of pole-dancing, since they're based around fulfilling (male) fantasies _anyway_. Perhaps if there were clubs where women paid to go and pole-dance in front of lots of hot male employees who treated them as the sexiest things in the universe....


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> As I said earlier though (and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with BK btw), it is interesting though how it's generally women who explore the fantasy of pole dancing and not men. I wonder why?



Most dance classes are full of  women.

Tap, ballet, jazz, flamenco...

You do get men wanting to learn pole though, all the men I've taught have been gay and want to bust moves at Shadow Lounge or similar gay club with a pole.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Although, if the anology remains true to the reality, we wouldn't be condemning the actions of Michael Ryan, just those who paid good money to watch and encourage him.



I wanted to book on Ticketmaster but they tried to charge me a 1000% fee


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 8, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well, men can just go to pole-dancing clubs if they want to explore the fantasy of pole-dancing, since they're based around fulfilling (male) fantasies _anyway_. Perhaps if there were clubs where women paid to go and pole-dance in front of lots of hot male employees who treated them as the sexiest things in the universe....



Yup. 

So it's about roles. 

And this I guess is where the connection between women only pole dancing classes, and pole dancing in strip bars can be made. They're both about the roles that women, or at least some of them, are expected to do. And arguably, both perpetuate the role.

On the other hand, I think the "for women" instead of "for men" is still a massive difference between the two. And as has been said, belly dancing is now pretty much divorced from it's origins in the harem.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


>



 Well, I'm rather impressed by his athleticism! 

Few straight men though? Though I do take the point that few straight men dance as a hobby (although in my own dance classes, I do know you do get them).


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Few straight men though? Though I do take the point that few straight men dance as a hobby (although in my own dance classes, I do know you do get them).



No straight men. And let's admit it, Freud would be right on this one.

The pole is a penis.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 8, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> BK, reading how you say one thing, then the next day, the exact opposite, I have to ask: do you believe _any_ of the things you've said in this thread?



If you ask me, her position has been completely consistent from day one.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Nonsense BK, this is ridiculous. If you were a gym instructor, you wouldn't be emphasizing the 'sexual, playful gorgeousness' of performing push-ups, and yet that's what you are saying your classes are just about
> 
> I actually agree that dancing is not necessarily about attracting 'male lust'. That's belittling. But you have taken the wrong defence by pretending that it's just about fitness (which indeed, you've just reneged from seamlessly), it is an artistic display which should have a strong sexual element if done properly. Women can indeed do that just for themselves or for it's own sake, if 'male lust' wants to be attracted well that's just something that might come along.




Eh?

It's a DANCE fitness class - so if it was a belly dance class or a flamenco dance class, it's perfectly normal to say to the dancers, that was gorgeous, you look beautiful, that was really sexy and passionate, well done
All dance is a *performance *art.

But the point being made is that women go to ballet classes  primarlily as fitness training, change-from-the-gym-thing  - not to be ballet dancers on stage and they go to pole classes not to work as strippers but for fitness training and to feel good and have fun with other women.

Hells bells, why is this so hard for some men reading this to grasp?

Yet some posters here have said that

a) all pole dancing is about inciting male lust
b) It's not dancing nor fitness
c) It condones stripping and normalises the 'sex industry'

this is as stupid as saying belly dancing condones harem slavery or boxercise condones bareknuckle fighting




If it was a combat class the teacher might congratulate students on their aggression and speed and power, if it is a flamenco or pole class, on their sizzling sensuality and grace.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 8, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> No straight men. And let's admit it, Freud would be right on this one. The pole is a penis.



Didn't stop them (straight men) maypoling though, did it?


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Didn't stop them (straight men) maypoling though, did it?



an ancient fertility rite!


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 8, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> an ancient fertility rite!



Well, maybe pole dancing could become the new mass fertilizer after peak oil...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Yup.
> 
> So it's about roles.
> 
> ...



I certainly appreciate the argument that even just playing on the idea of pole-dancing being sexy is perpetuating the real-world exploitation and reinforcement of power imbalances that comes with it - I just don't think that, in the grand scheme of things, it's an issue that I'd really put very high up on the list.

As as you say the "for women" does make a huge difference. It's being recontextualised very severely, which obviously has effects in practice (women pole-dancing for fitness do not operate in the same business world as those pole-dancing professionally) and also conceptually, painting dancing around a pole as an activity as one carefully entered into without constraints or exploitation. Whether it is actually possible to completely "reclaim" it, though, I am not sure.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> an ancient fertility rite!



Not usually grinding around it and rubbing your bits on it though....


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Yup.
> 
> So it's about roles.
> 
> ...



But if you go into a gent's club at 'fantasy hour' you'll see women dressed as nnuns, schoolgirls, nurses, police officers....and yet nobody suggests women work as nurses etc to turn men on.

Pole dancing as the athletic gymnastic thing it is out of the strip clubs developed out of the women in strip clubs inventing tricks and stunts on the pole. Many dancers who work the poles never do any tricks because they get hot and sweaty and bruised and they don't _need_ to, 

and the two things are pretty different now.

It's moved on, there is a big gap.

There is some cross over, but it's gone mainstream, however I don't think many women doing classes would say that by doing so they are idealising the life of a stripper or normalising sex encounter clubs or the sex industry.

The point of the pole in the club is to show off the woman so she can make money from paid lap dances, which is a different skill. The point of the pole in the class is to climb and swing on -  you can do moves that you couldn't do without a male dancer to lift and swing and hold you, usingyour own strength.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> But if you go into a gent's club at 'fantasy hour' you'll see women dressed as nnuns, schoolgirls, nurses, police officers....and yet nobody suggests women work as nurses etc to turn men on.


Difference with those however is that those professionals existed before and have been adapted for erotic purposes, rather than the other way round. 



> Pole dancing as the athletic gymnastic thing it is out of the strip clubs developed out of the women in strip clubs inventing tricks and stunts on the pole. Many dancers who work the poles never do any tricks because they get hot and sweaty and bruised and they don't _need_ to,
> 
> and the two things are pretty different now.


Fair dos. 



> There is some cross over, but it's gone mainstream, however I don't think many women doing classes would say that by doing so they are idealising the life of a stripper or normalising sex encounter clubs or the sex industry.



I guess it could be wondered here whether that there's any _subconscious_ fantasy though. Which I'm not saying there definitely is, I'm just saying it's a question for debate.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> But if you go into a gent's club at 'fantasy hour' you'll see women dressed as nnuns, schoolgirls, nurses, police officers....and yet nobody suggests women work as nurses etc to turn men on.



Because they don't. But professional pole/lap-dancers _do_.


----------



## soulman (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Well Johnny, I've made the point in several posts now. Everyone else seems to have grasped it.
> 
> All those smiling women in their dance class, yes, of course they are lovely and erotic as humans BUT THE CLASS IS CLEARLY NOT AN EROTIC PERFORMANCE *FOR MEN*.
> 
> ...



Would you feel better if it was FOR WOMEN? http://www.timeout.com/london/gay/features/219.html


----------



## Jambooboo (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Belly dance class
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The only difference I'm seeing there is that the first in each example you give are old and/or fat.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

soulman said:


> Would you feel better if it was FOR WOMEN? http://www.timeout.com/london/gay/features/219.html



I have never said I objected to dancing erotically for money, what the thread actually started about was 

1. licensing lap dance clubs on public entertainment licences
2. the clubs failing to stick to the terms of the licence - no touching, no lewd acts etc
3. the feelings of local residents who under the current licencing system have little opportunity to object to lapdance clubs setting up in their town centres, en masse.

Actually one of my mates dances on a pole in a lesbian bar. She also dances in fetish clubs and does a fireeating cabaret act thing. She's not your typical Spearmint type being very tattooed and pierced.

She gets very fucked off when people try to grope her though.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Jambooboo said:


> The only difference I'm seeing there is that the first in each example you give are old and/or fat.




Most professional dancers have different bodies to normal women in gym classes. Most fitness classes are not full of lithe 19 year olds, they are full of women of all ages and sizes.

Being a professional dancer means you pretty much have to be young and fit.

It's nice for women who might feel ''old and fat'' to go to a class where they are praised and high-fived and told they are gorgeous. This is why I think pole classes are empowering for women; they get to be sexy,playful and work out, for themselves, for fun, with nobody sneering and putting them down. That is why when a woman manages a spin and a kick I shout 'yay! well done! you look fabulous!' and I watch her smile at me and I see her confidence grow and I think it is fucking excellent.

And if she goes home feeling like she's gorgeous and jumps on her bloke then excellent. And if she goes out at the weekend and dances in a nightclub with her mates  and feels sexy then excellent.

Half of it is about the exercise, the other half is psychology. To have a bunch of women cheering you as you spin round shouting ''woo!'' pretending you are a showgirl is an uplifting experience. It is a privilege to see how happy and silly everyone gets.

It's a time out from day to day reality and that is no bad thing.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Yup.
> 
> So it's about roles.
> 
> ...




Belly dancing has its origins in women only spaces.  It was originally performed in women only environments as a way for older women to teach younger women how tone up the pelvic floor and other muscles to aid childbirth. 

I think pole dancing is sexy, it is without a doubt challenging and demanding exercise and the only time I have a problem with it is when anyone is pressurised or forced to do it against their will or to add sexual elements that they don't really want to add. 

Something that I can't imagine every happening in BK's class and some of the "pole dancing = sleazy exploitation regardless of context" posts are bonkers IMO


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

Jambooboo said:


> The only difference I'm seeing there is that the first in each example you give are old and/or fat.



Pah, there's another big difference - they're wearing more clothes!


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Difference with those however is that those professionals existed before and have been adapted for erotic purposes, rather than the other way round.
> 
> 
> Fair dos.
> ...



I think there is. But I think it is women reclaiming that fantasy for themselves. Fantasy has always played a part in women's desire and it's often not politically correct.

The fantasy of exhibitionism, or submission for example, is very prevalent. It doesn't mean a woman wants to be stripping on stage or overpowered by a masked stranger in real life. 

What I'm saying, is that is a woman wants to play tennis and fantasise she's Anna Kournikova, or do a pole dance class and fantasise she's Dita Von Teese then great. She's doing it for herself. She's choosing to do it. Nobody is making her do it and no men are there. It adds an extra dimension to physical exercise and dance.

But all this is a world away from being a lap dancer in a club where the licensing rules are not enforced and simulating or performing sex acts are tolerated or even expected.

The fantasy of  being Dita in a women only class is a long way from that.

There will always be men who want to pay to see girls dance nude. There will always be women who want to earn money from exotic dancing. People are sexy. Dancing is sexy. Sexuality, the sexual impulse is a powerful urge and can also be commoditised and packaged and sold.


I started the thread about the licensing issue, something that has been in the news and was the premise of  the TV show. 

I do support better regulation. I do think clubs should not breach their licencing conditions, which are there to protect both employees and residents. I don't think that is prudish, misogynistic, hypocritical, god-bothering, feminazi, or any of the other stuff that has been flung around.

All of which I said already.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

Do we have to keep hearing it? 


edited to clarify - Badger Kitten had posted "All of which I said already" at the end of the last post, which she has now edited out. Pretty low of you BK


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 8, 2008)

People into S&M enjoy themselves with whips and chains. 

Should we shun them or disapprove because of the historical horrors with which such items can be associated or really, at the end of the day, it it nobody else's business but theirs?

Some women enjoy pole dancing.  Sometimes as a form of exercise and sometimes because it makes them feel sexy, maybe for other reasons too such as to make money.   Why anyone should get excited about this is beyond me.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> People into S&M enjoy themselves with whips and chains.
> 
> Should we shun them or disapprove because of the historical horrors with which such items can be associated or really, at the end of the day, it it nobody else's business but theirs?
> 
> Some women enjoy pole dancing.  Sometimes as a form of exercise and sometimes because it makes them feel sexy, maybe for other reasons too such as to make money.   Why anyone should get excited about this is beyond me.



Exactly and all of this was a massive derail from the threasd which started off about the licensing situation in the Uk re. lapdancing clubs and what goes on therein in breach of the licensing regs.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> People into S&M enjoy themselves with whips and chains.
> 
> Should we shun them or disapprove because of the historical horrors with which such items can be associated or really, at the end of the day, it it nobody else's business but theirs?
> 
> Some women enjoy pole dancing.  Sometimes as a form of exercise and sometimes because it makes them feel sexy, maybe for other reasons too such as to make money.   Why anyone should get excited about this is beyond me.



If I didn't get excited with a lapdance I'd ask for my money back!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Exactly and all of this was a massive derail from the threasd which started off about the licensing situation in the Uk re. lapdancing clubs and what goes on therein in breach of the licensing regs.





...except that the thread starts out with a moralistic comment about how this sort of thing shouldn't be very available to people.




> I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Exactly and all of this was a massive derail from the threasd which started off about the licensing situation in the Uk re. lapdancing clubs and what goes on therein in breach of the licensing regs.




I would care a lot more about the licensing regs if I was confident that the dancers themselves supported a change 

TBH whether a woman dances 3' or 3" away from a man is irrelevant to me, the important thing is that the woman dancing feels safe and not pressurised to do anything she doesn't want to do


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I do support better regulation. I do think clubs should not breach their licencing conditions, which are there to protect both employees and residents. I don't think that is prudish, misogynistic, hypocritical, god-bothering, feminazi, or any of the other stuff that has been flung around



Maybe it's just me, but this statement seems to contain an element of prudishness.



> I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.



I don't think you've yet explained why a simulated lesbian sex show shouldn't be as available as a curry, if there's a demand for such things.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 8, 2008)

children can buy curries, for example


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't think you've yet explained why a simulated lesbian sex show shouldn't be as available as a curry, if there's a demand for such things.



I don't want to put words in BKs mouth, but I think she said that a plethora of such clubs creates an intimidating atmosphere for women, especially late at night.  Personally I disagree--take the RLD in Amsterdam for example.  Loads of strip clubs, but perfectly safe and (I'd have thought) a lot less intimidating than any British small town on a Saturday night.


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## Jazzz (Oct 8, 2008)

"hey mate, looking for a nice madras?"

xxx Red Hot Curry xxx


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> I don't want to put words in BKs mouth, but I think she said that a plethora of such clubs creates an intimidating atmosphere for women, especially late at night.  Personally I disagree--take the RLD in Amsterdam for example.  Loads of strip clubs, but perfectly safe and (I'd have thought) a lot less intimidating than any British small town on a Saturday night.




that really is a rubbish argument. whatever the impact, or effect, of the rld in amsterdam, are you seriously trying to claim that every british small town is enhanced (or uninhindered) by the presence of a sex club?

where does the intimidation part of it fit in?


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 8, 2008)

The documentary that some people here didn't see showed newquay town centre with 2 lap dancing clubs close together and scantily clad women outside trying to lure passing men into the club.  The fact is that newquay has loads of tourists, forces on leave and other passing trade, so these scenes are not typical off other towns.  I can understand why some people would find the dramatic goings on in the street very annoying or, if they lived in the area, distressing.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I would care a lot more about the licensing regs if I was confident that the dancers themselves supported a change
> 
> TBH whether a woman dances 3' or 3" away from a man is irrelevant to me, the important thing is that the woman dancing feels safe and not pressurised to do anything she doesn't want to do



Fwiw, when the lapdancing clubs were in vogue here, there were clearcut rules, and there were large, scary looking men in black t shirts standing and walking about, whose job it was to make sure that the rules were strictly adhered to. If the rules weren't adhered to, the large men took a dim view of it, and communicated that to the punters.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 8, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> that really is a rubbish argument. whatever the impact, or effect, of the rld in amsterdam, are you seriously trying to claim that every british small town is enhanced (or uninhindered) by the presence of a sex club?
> 
> where does the intimidation part of it fit in?



Can't really see as how a lap-dancing club is intimidating wherever it may be.  Then again I'm a bloke.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Can't really see as how a lap-dancing club is intimidating wherever it may be.  Then again I'm a bloke.


the only time i went to a strip pub, i felt intimidated by the clientele. maybe that's just me?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> I don't want to put words in BKs mouth, but I think she said that a plethora of such clubs creates an intimidating atmosphere for women, especially late at night. .



And my reply to that was that to the extent that activity inside the club somehow spilled onto the street, via girls outside, or neon signs etc, then regulate those aspects. Regulate signage etc.

As for the presence of the clubs and the punters, my reply was that I doubt that the addition of the 'lapdance crowd' to the usual crowd of drunken louts spilling out of pubs at closing, will really make much difference to the 'tone' of the high street in the wee hours of the morning.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> the only time i went to a strip pub, i felt intimidated by the clientele. maybe that's just me?



Given the large number of bouncers in strip clubs here, they tend to be pretty safe environments. Also, since the clubs at least used to be run by the Hells Angels, most people inside were on their best behaviour.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 8, 2008)

we went to ye olde axe (or summit) on hackney road. it had very few bouncers, lots of lads/older blokes who seemed more interested in _*our*_ arrival than the semi-clad woman writhing around in front of them, nasty atmosphere all round imo and i have some experience of unlicensed parties. it wasn't pleasant in any form tbf.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 8, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> we went to ye olde axe (or summit) on hackney road. it had very few bouncers, lots of lads/older blokes who seemed more interested in _*our*_ arrival than the semi-clad woman writhing around in front of them, nasty atmosphere all round imo and i have some experience of unlicensed parties. it wasn't pleasant in any form tbf.



Well, next time you're in Vancouver, we'll arrange for you to visit a proper, well run, safe stripping establishment. If you don't mind being robbed via the price of a drink, that is.

Personally, I'm not enthusiastic about paying double for a pint of beer, for the privilege of having an unsmiling woman take off her clothes ten feet away, for a brief period of time.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 8, 2008)

think i might stick to a pizza thanks.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 8, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but this statement seems to contain an element of prudishness.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you've yet explained why a simulated lesbian sex show shouldn't be as available as a curry, if there's a demand for such things.





Crispy said:


> children can buy curries, for example



As I have explained _ad nauseam _ JC2  - and as the documentary you did not see explained

1. Since the 2003 Licensing Act, lap dancing places since 2003 can apply for a public entertainment licence
2. This means they are treated like a kareoke bar, coffee shop or jazz club.
3. Local residents get almost no powers of veto.
4. Often they do not find out that it is to be a lap dancing place til it is open.
5. Lapdancing places make a lot of money. They can open in prime town centre areas. They can outbid the coffee shop, jazz club and live music venue,
6. Lapdancing places attract groups of revved up, drunk, horny men. Lots of lapdancing places in a small area attract them even more and mean the clubs compete to pull in punters. That means packing in more girls ( who pay for the privilege) and more competition to get the men to pay up. That means upping the ante - offering 2 for 1, buy 2 get one free, or sex acts. Or the dancers not getting much  money.
7.  Sex acts however are banned under the licensing conditions. The licences are issued under a 'no touching - no soliciting - no lewd conduct'- rules.
8. If the places were licenced as sex encounter clubs - which is what many now are - because parking morality at the door, two naked girls wriggling on your lap and then fingering each other inches from your face - is a sex act - that would be more honest, and help local residents and councils.
9. Residents who live and work in a town and pay council tax are surely entitled to some say as to what they want their town to be like.
10. Following a lot of distressed complaints to local councils, this has become a national issue and a cross party group of MPs has backed reform. It was the Govt's bill that changed the rules, and what residents are saying is that in practice, it has not worked. The bill was meant to speed up red tape for live music venues applying for licences. A loophole in it has meant lapdancing places - over 300 in 2 years - have sprung up - with no consultation of residents and which are breaching licensing regs - designed to protect residents and workers.

Here are some news stories about how local people feel.


Plymouth 

Newquay

West London

Blackpool

Brighton

Wigan

Ipswich

Islington


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 9, 2008)

is that all?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

I can't be bothered to do every single local newspaper trawl. I think th epoint has been made.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I can't be bothered to do every single local newspaper trawl. I think th epoint has been made.


i'll bet JC2 has some local goss to come back at ya.

or maybe not.......


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Here are some news stories about how local people feel.
> 
> 
> Plymouth




Although, to be fair, the part of Plymouth in which this latest club is to be located isn't always the most salubrious of areas to start with. The barbican is nowehere near as bad as the dreaded Union Street (known as 'Dodge City' to some locals) but it's still a good place for trouble if you're not reasonably careful.

The funny thing is, the political types in the article didn't seem to mind (or were at least largely silent on the subject) when la[p dancing places opened in the rougher parts of town so I think a hint of class prejudice and opportunism might be more their motivation than looking after the dancers themselves.

Come to think of it, a couple of years ago now, a truckload of lapdancers in skimpy attire were allowed on the annual Lord Mayor's Parade, while the Plymouth branch of CND were banned from the parade for being, and I quote, 'too political.' Of course, we went on the parade anyway and without the City Council's permission.

Regarding your point about sexual encounters, how do you feel about swingers clubs where full-on orgies take place rather than the relatively tamer activities of the lapdancing clubs you refer to?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

The problem I have with JC2 is that he leapt to this massive assumption about god bothering priggishness hypocrisy blah blah - from ONE sentence - refused to hear the point about licensing - and banged on and on with jibes for pages on end.

Even now when he has had it explained over and over, he is still saying it is about morality - by which he means a Christianist, ''no fornication'' pursed lips caricature.

But there are other sorts of morality than anti-sexual morality. You might want to call it 'fairness' and 'reasonable' rather than the loaded word 'morality'; maybe that would make it easier to see more clearly.

Is it unreasonable for locals to have no say in their town zoning?
Is it fair for hyper-profit clubs to open anywhere and flood the market, then leave their dancers pressurised into offering sex acts in direct breach of the licence, to have any chance of earning enough to make it worth turning up?

I don't think it is.


I used the example of 5 prizefighting clubs opening in the town square of a market town, attracting large groups of pissed, revved up men.

Anyone who said - _'hang on, is it fair that the residents shouldn't know and not be consulted? Is it reasonable that the fight clubs should have to compete by offering more and more extreme bouts - in breach of their licences - pressurising the young men who fight there to go further and further?'_
would be unlikely to be attacked as a moralistic, religious crusader.


So Johnny - please drop the baiting and consider that there might be other more pragmatic reasons for thinking what I think. That would be more respectful - and more fair.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> Regarding your point about sexual encounters, how do you feel about swingers clubs where full-on orgies take place rather than the relatively tamer activities of the lapdancing clubs you refer to?



No problem at all. People elect to be there, they pay to be there, they are choosing to be there.

And the swinging clubs are discreet - they don't intimidate locals by opening a 'MEGA FUCK PALACE!' next to All Bar One and Tesco Metro.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

If it was such a MEGA FUCK PALACE it would be next to Tesco Extra.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As I have explained _ad nauseam _ JC2  - and as the documentary you did not see explained
> 
> URL]



The documentary has nothing to do with your moral pronouncement that lapdancing should not be as available as a curry.

If you want to talk about the existing regulations now, that's fine. But you started out with your moral judgement, and I didn't need to watch the program in order to find out what that was: you told us, in post number 1.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

> The funny thing is, the political types in the article didn't seem to mind (or were at least largely silent on the subject) when la[p dancing places opened in the rougher parts of town so I think a hint of class prejudice and opportunism might be more their motivation than looking after the dancers themselves.
> 
> Come to think of it, a couple of years ago now, a truckload of lapdancers in skimpy attire were allowed on the annual Lord Mayor's Parade, while the Plymouth branch of CND were banned from the parade for being, and I quote, 'too political.' Of course, we went on the parade anyway and without the City Council's permission.



Oh, no doubt people are motivated by their own prejudices when complaining - they do not want the club near them. So what? They have just as much of a right to say, no, I don't want to live or work or socilaise in the town centre near a lap club as people who don't live there have the 'right' to have a lap dance. In fact, I think the residents' right trumps the right of the punter, and dancer, and club manager as well. They live there, after all.

It's also not surprising that the most vociferous are those who own their own poperty or who have invested in the area and who are therefore likely to be better off. Those in rented accomodation or poorer parts of town are less likely to speak up.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Crispy said:


> children can buy curries, for example



Sometimes, it feels like I'm talking to a ten year old.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The documentary has nothing to do with your moral pronouncement that lapdancing should not be as available as a curry.
> 
> If you want to talk about the existing regulations now, that's fine. But you started out with your moral judgement, and I didn't need to watch the program in order to find out what that was: you told us, in post number 1.



You know what?

After 18 pages of provocation, I'll finally say it.

 Just fuck off.
Edit: Just fuck off, you are so incredibly unconvicing with all this shite, you can read what I write perfectly well and you are trolling away and it is so incredibly familiar and I am so so so so fucking bored of humouring you

There, now I feel better.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

I never bought a curry until I was 23


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As I have explained _ad nauseam _ JC2  - and as the documentary you did not see explained
> 
> 1. Since the 2003 Licensing Act, lap dancing places since 2003 can apply for a public entertainment licence
> 2. This means they are treated like a kareoke bar, coffee shop or jazz club.
> ...



That's fine: but, what does that have to do with your personal belief that lapdancing clubs should be limited in the following way:




> I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.
> 
> a) *to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population*


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 9, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I wanted to book on Ticketmaster but they tried to charge me a 1000% fee



Clever. 

I wanted to go to Berlin but the cheapest offer was £24,823 via the moon.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i'll bet JC2 has some local goss to come back at ya.
> 
> or maybe not.......



...because obviously, the people of britain have nothing to learn from the experiences of people elsewhere.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

And |I assume that was the reaction you've been after since page 1?


Good. 



It is actually easier sometimes just to throw the dog a bone.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The problem I have with JC2 is that he leapt to this massive assumption about god bothering priggishness hypocrisy blah blah - from ONE sentence - refused to hear the point about licensing - and banged on and on with jibes for pages on end.
> 
> Even now when he has had it explained over and over, he is still saying it is about morality - by which he means a Christianist, ''no fornication'' pursed lips caricature..



I've never once suggested that you are a christian. But in some ways, the christian moralists are to be preferred. They're easier to identify. They come with nametags, and pamphlets in hand, maybe a bible. 

More difficult are the moralists who look and talk like we do, who appear on the surface to be easygoing and liberal, but when you scratch the surface you get yet another person interested in imposing their moral structure, on others.

That's the kind of moralist I mean.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's fine: but, what does that have to do with your personal belief that lapdancing clubs should be limited in the following way:



Hey it's all on the first page and this page in fucking |English, bud.

Can't you read?


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## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

By 'limiting the number of lapdancing places' - does this mean number of establishments or numbers of possible dances.

Cos if it's the former you could just build your MEGA FUCK PALACE extra mega fucking big, couldn't you?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I've never once suggested that you are a christian. But in some ways, the christian moralists are to be preferred. They're easier to identify. They come with nametags, and pamphlets in hand, maybe a bible.
> 
> More difficult are the moralists who look and talk like we do, who appear on the surface to be easygoing and liberal, but when you scratch the surface you get yet another person interested in imposing their moral structure, on others.
> 
> That's the kind of moralist I mean.




Yeah, whatever, you are utterly unwilling to bother reading my posts.


That is disrespectful.

I can't be bothered anymore Johnny. 
You achieved your aim: you got me to say 'fuck off' and show irritation. I assume that was why you put the hours in.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> So Johnny - please drop the baiting and consider that there might be other more pragmatic reasons for thinking what I think. That would be more respectful - and more fair.



Respect, prizefighting, etc.

I'll hand it to you that you are skillful at picking up on the themes presented by others and feeding them back in such a way as to bring more people onside.

Two men inflicting brain injuries on each other in the pursuit of profit for promoters, isn't the same thing as a dancer rubbing her fanny on the leg of a seated punter in a bar.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> You know what?
> 
> After 18 pages of provocation, I'll finally say it.
> 
> ...



The only thing less convincing, is your protestation that you actually care about any of this.

And look: I can say that without even swearing, which makes me feel better, too.

btw, I hope you don't feel picked on. I assumed I was dealing with an adult who could hold her own, and wouldn't run crying if things got a bit heated. Whatever you'd like to believe, I see women as true equals, which means no special treatment and no pulled punches in a discussion. If 'equal' means something else to you, then I guess it's just another thing we disagree on.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Yeah, whatever, you are utterly unwilling to bother reading my posts.
> 
> 
> That is disrespectful.
> ...




You've shown lots of irritation throughout. It's sort of your trademark.

Am I being disrespectful again?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Hey it's all on the first page and this page in fucking |English, bud.
> 
> Can't you read?



Very well; which is why your subsequent waffling is so unconvincing.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> You achieved your aim: you got me to say 'fuck off' and show irritation. I assume that was why you put the hours in.



I have to say, I think you're seriously misreading JC's tone and intentions here.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I assume that was why you put the hours in.



I just noticed this part. What a laugh. You must have a hugely puffed-up opinion of yourself.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 9, 2008)

<removed>


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2008)

that was remarkably low of you jazz


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Pole dance class
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't be such an idiot. Clearly the people in the first picture are attending the class in an attempt to be as 'sexy' as the woman in the second picture.

That's the connection.. and that's big lie.. that, for a woman to be 'sexy', she has to slide up and down a pole. That's the big lie that I think your classes promote.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I said your misogyny was showing because of the sneering, contemptuous way you have spoken about women dancing on this thread - and on the other one



I don't care why you said what you said. It was unmitigated bollocks. And incredibly hypocritical.

I spoke to YOU personally in that way because I think you're a massive hypocrite. As usual what you do to deflect criticism is to try and make out that I'm referring to ALL women by quoting me selectively. I'm not. I just think *you're* an idiot. And anyone who falls for your crap.

Calling me a mysoginist insinuates that I lack respect for women.. that's not true.. there are many, many women that I respect, like and admire... for many reasons... agentsparrow, strumpet, milly molly, upinsmoke, moomoo, julie, Mrs Magpie, scifisam.. I could go on.

But you aren't one of them. That doesn't make me a mysoginist. You use that words so often and so badly it's beginning to lose any meaning when you say it.

Grow up, bk and act like the 37 year old woman you are.. deal with personal criticism instead of trying to make everyone who criticises you into a bogeyman. It's pathetic.. and anyone with half a brain can see straight through it.

I'm not a mysoginist because I think you're an idiot for promoting as 'exercise' an activity heavily associated with the exploitation of both men and women.

I also think you're being deliberately false when you try and pretend there is no connection to pole-dancing as a class or as a job. It's fairly obvious that the job inspires the class.

My point is that as a responsible older woman I don't think you should be promoting the idea that to be sexy a woman needs to slide up and down a pole. I think young women have enough negative influences from the media without older women who should know better making it even more acceptable.

On the subject of whether lapdance clubs should have better enforced regulations... yes, of course they should. It's blindingly obvious. There, discussion closed. Let's talk about your hypocrisy.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Respect, prizefighting, etc.
> 
> I'll hand it to you that you are skillful at picking up on the themes presented by others and feeding them back in such a way as to bring more people onside.
> 
> Two men inflicting brain injuries on each other in the pursuit of profit for promoters, isn't the same thing as a dancer rubbing her fanny on the leg of a seated punter in a bar.




It was me who first raised the hypothetical issue of prizefighting bars springing up so people could see how several prize-fighting bars in a small town with crowds of revved up men going in and out CHANGED THE VIBE for local residents. To move it away from the idea that the only possible reason for objecting to a lapdancing place could be sexual prudishness.

That was the reason the point was made in the first instance. I was inspired to make it by another analogy I gave: boxercise classes and prizefighting.
Are the women or men in the boxing classes aspiring to the life of the professional boxer? No, but boxercise came out of the boxing ring.

Later on I returned to the prizefighting club to make a third point. When several lap places unfettered by regulation, licensed by a govt body and legally able to ignore residents' and councils' objections open up, competition increases.

The girls who work there have to compete and thus the pressure for lewd acts etc increases. It gets more extreme. I made an analogy between our hyothetical number of competing prize fighting places and the fighters having to compete by offering more extreme fights to make a point about pressure on workers to break rules in a competitive market.

Again, this was to illustrate a point. I have tried over and over to get people to understand the points I made,  the original point of the thread, the points about which I have been entirely consistent

1. licensing laws - how they are handed out
2.types of licences - public entertainment licences
3. local residents - who have little right iof veto with this tye of licence
4.protection of workers - in a hyper-profit-driven market

There is something about the fact that this is about lapdancing that has caused immense heat in this thread. 

And the attacks have been personal and nasty,the tone sneering and aggressive. 

It looks to me as if  the point I have been making is being misread. Wilfully or not, I don't know.

I have made the point over and over again; the point of the programme,which was on at the time.

 I made the first short post in the TV forum -not general, not P&P/news - but the TV forum about a show that was on now.

The thread title is 'C4 lapdancing club investigation: Dispatches on now'.



It is interesting that not one person who has weighed in with charges of prudishness, misogyny, hypocrisy, agendas, etc, has picked up on the main point made in *the very first point *I made, the *original post*. The point that makes it clear from the very beginning what I'm trying to raise, even as I type hastily and briefly  - _in the forum commonly used for discussing specific tv shows/books/films rather than general or controversial issues _- about the show that was on at that time.


The original post is pretty clear and  here it is again with the points in bold.



> C4 lapdancing club investigation: Dispatches *on now*
> it really does seem to have gone a bit far. *5 establishments in one small town of 20,000 in Cornwall ( typical example)?*
> They are *incredibly ubiquitous*. I don't think popping in for a simulated lesbian sex show should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open on every high street.
> 
> ...




What part of 'show on now' ( which is clearly investigating the licensing/residents reaction/abuse of licences)

and '5 establishments in one small town of 20,000 in Cornwall'

and 'incredibly ubiquitous'

don't you understand? And then the short OP makes the point about more regulation and tougher licences which is what the show is about.

Does the post say 'Lapdancing - isn't it disgraceful? It's just immoral.'

No.

Is the post in the general forum, or the news forum or another forum more generally used to discuss issues of morality?

No.

Is it self-evidently about a show on now about a licensing issue?

Yes.

In this context, 

' I don't think popping in for a *simulated lesbian sex show* should be as easy as popping in for a curry on a Tuesday night, with fully nude lapdancing bars open *on every high street*.'

makes complete sense.

'Simulated lesbian sex show' is against the terms of the public ents licence. Which is what the documentary, on at that time, was saying.

' On every high street' is the issue of how the places are setting up in prime social space and alludes to the residents' objections - also the point of the show, on at that time.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 9, 2008)

Wow, that's a big one.

I'm just going to crack a beer. How's about we continue with the grave issue of lapdancing, tomorrow?

My tomorrow, I mean?

Will that be ok?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

And the second post I made, whilst the show was still being broadcast, makes the point even more clearly.



> I think there should be tougher regulation and they should not have the same licence regulations as 'public entertainment' venues.
> 
> a) to limit the numbers of lap dancing places per '000 population
> b) to have them further out of town
> ...



All of which is in the documentary. On at that time, which I'm watching as  I post.

The documentary is about whether there should be tougher regulation and the use of 'public entertainment' licences.

a) is about the licences and the residents
b) is about the licences
c) is about the licences - no touching is a term of the current licence
d) is about the licences - no sex shows is a term of the current licence
e) is about worker protection and responsible business practice


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

And as if it wasn't already perfectly bloody obvious, here's the third post I made, still on the first page.



> it has gone a bit mad: of course it changes the dynamic of high streets and town centres after dark if there are 5 lap dancing places in a small town, all within walking distance and I don't think it works to anyone's benefit.



Which is one of the main points of the C4 programme, on at the time, which the thread was about.

So when JC2 jumps in with



> Really. I mean, what next? Dogs and cats lying together as man and wife?



it looks like he is deliberately missing a point. JC2 says


> Why can't adults do what they want?



But where have I said they can't? The thread is not about the morality of lapdancing per se. It's about licensing and lots of clubs in small towns, in high streets.

Then JC2 starts on about sex in films, which is nothing to do with anything. He's trying to misrepresent my position, see.



> Simulated sex shows. ie, they aren't actually having sex, and you want it banned. Should it be banned in films as well? To make a film, someone has to simulate the sex to make it 'look real'.
> 
> Or is your concern just that live humans are doing something vaguely sexual in British towns?



I try to get him to read the original posts I make and understand what i am saying. It's about licencing, residents, a show that is on now.

JC2 ignores me. He writes instead, developing his meme


> Maybe you could team up with the god botherers in educating people on the evils of fornication



The subtext is pretty clear.

He makes it clearer still


> why are you so avid to control the lives of other adults?



But I'm not saying that, it's clear that this is not the point of the thread about licensing, residents, the doc  on the tv. 

Yet again, I explain it to him



> As of 5 years ago lapdancing places are licensed as 'public entertainment'.
> 
> They are regularly breaching the licensing terms, and manyare questioning whether they have the right sort of licence. A show is on now, looking at the issue. of the type of licence they are supposed to be operating under and whether it is working. It looks like it isn't.
> 
> You can't see the show, which is on now, which this thread is discussing.



The response from JC2


> While we're at it, check your resident feedback on penalties for drug use, or the death penalty.



wtf?

First use of the word 'prudish' from another poster.
Then JC2 says



> I'm not questioning the show: I'm questioning your little personal morality list.



Licensing I say. Licensing. Not morality.

What is the comeback from JC2?



> No, it's about my distaste for self important moralizing prigs.



Deliberately missing the point, over and over? Misrepresenting, personal attacks? Looks like trolling to me.

And we've only got to page 2.

I can't be bothered to go on.

It's fucking obvious what has been going on in this thread.

Anyone can read it and see for themselves.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

The person who brings up pole dancing lessons in the thread about licensing problems with lapdancing clubs is Kismet, by the way.


Kizmet said:


> Yes, the clubs could do with better regulation... but then again.. perhaps more importantly we could do without glamourising the whole industry so that *stupid young girls* don't think it's *ok to take their clothes off* and demand £20 from stupid men.



The moralising person here is Kismet. He says its  not ''ok for 'stupid young girls to take their clothes off'. However, in a previous thread he explains that he was in Browns most weeks on corporate jollies.

That presumably makes him a 'stupid man' by his own definition, and makes me wonder why he has a problem with women choosing to attend pole dance classes  where no men ever hand over £20, when he by his own admission was a regular attender at lap dancing clubs. 

Lapdancing clubs are quite different to pole dancing classes. That is obvious. Boxercise classes are quite different to prizefighting.
Lapdancing goes on. prizefighting goes on.
I don't hear Kismet saying that boxercise classes are perpetuating the abuses of the prizefighting circuit.
Hypocritical? Moralistic? A lack of self-awareness? You decide.




Kizmet said:


> Yes, there is. Although self-awareness to see as much has neve really been your strongest point.
> 
> Perhaps this is what you should be teaching the girls... instead of how to rub themselves up against a pole.
> 
> ...



Pole dancing isn't dancing, says Kismet. It involves sex. 
Dismissing completely any experience of women wanting to go to pole fitness classes and learn dancing. Instead of teaching pole fitness, he says I should teach 'self-awareness' to women. By which he means, that they are stupid for wanting to learn to pole dance, presumably.

Boxercise? Prize-fighting? 
See any hypocrisy and prudishness yet?

Aside:As Johnny Canuck has decided the thread is about morality, does he go for Kismet, who is the person quite clearly taking the moral judgement position?
Nope. Interesting.




Kizmet said:


> You really do think men are stupid and to be exploited, don't you?



Where have I said this? Nowhere.  Kismet himself is the one who has described men who go to strip clubs as 'stupid'. In this thread, he doesn't admit that he himself was a frequent visitor to them. 



Kizmet said:


> Yep. No matter how pretty you word it up.. pole dancing ain't dancing.
> 
> They come into your _pole-dancing_ lessons as muppets and they don't leave as Dame Margot Fonteyn.
> 
> By the way.. is that what you put on the advertising blurb for your lessons?




'Muppets', says Kismet, sneeringly. Pole dancing ain't dancing, he repeats.
Dismissively negating the experience of the women doing it. Even though he has never attended a pole fitness class or apparently listened to anyone who has been to one, and is basing his position on 'stupid' strippers and 'stupid' men who watch them.




Kizmet said:


> It's _pole-dancing_... it's done for sexdual gratification. It ain't dancing.
> 
> Not saying it's not difficult.. but if you can't understand the point about normalisation when you try and compare it to ballet or even tap-dancing! Even morris dancers have to train for longer than your 'dancers', I bet!
> 
> ...



Pole dancing fitness classes are not the same experience as...but Kismet continues sneering. Once again, he dismisses the experience of everyone there. There's no skill. No training, he says, even though he knows nothing about it. 
Hypocritical, he says. Because there is no difference for him between a stripper lapdancing and a bunch of women choosing to go to a type of dance class. 

Boxercise? prizefighhting? etc. This is Kismet's moral position.



Kizmet said:


> No, hon. I just think that sometimes you're full of shit.
> 
> The standard Badger Kitten defence.. accuse anyone who argues with her of being 'dismissive of women'. When in fact they're just being dismissive of _you_
> 
> If you had anything about you, girl, you'd realise the truth is the exact opposite.



I'll let that speak for itself.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> What am I wrong about? That by perpetuating part of the sex-based industry you're actually contributing to the problem? That's all I'm trying to do, really.. get you to see that there is more to running your classes than just dancing.. no matter what you may think.



Moral position from Kismet. Where is JC2 on this? Nowhere.
Pole classes are 'perpetuating part of the sex-based industry', lalalala, I'm not going to hear anything different, because of my personal beliefs.




Kizmet said:


> That'll probably be flatulance from hanging upside down with your legs apart for so long...



See how the contempt and sneering drips off the screen.



Crispy said:


> And, as mentioned, belly dancing was associated with the enslavement of women in the harem. Associations are fluid, that's what culture is. If anything, teaching pole dancing outside of the context of the sex industry _dissociates_ it from that industry.





Kizmet said:


> Belly dancing *was* associated many years ago and in cultures very far from here.. We are talking about current associations happening right now in the streets and towns and homes in the uk.
> 
> There is no comparison, crispy.
> 
> Poeple often try to use the words 'empowering' and 'powerful' when they talk about women stripping or pole-dancing.. but, as if often the case, that's just fancy words designed to fool young women into an industry that exploits them just as much as it exploits the men. They're selling a lie. And by buying into that lie you perpetuate it.




Boxercise? prizefighting? etc etc.
Conflation of stripping and poledancing - two different things. Young women can't make choices knowingly, apparently - they are 'fooled' and 'exploited' if they choose to go to a pole class. It's 'selling a lie', says Kismet, sanctimoniously. A 'lie' I'm 'perpetuating'. How? I'm not exploiting women or telling them to take their clothes off for money. They're choosing to come to a dance class, one I don't even advertise. 


Citizen66 said:


> I fail to see how Pole dancing as a form of exercise exclusively for a group of women exploits them or men...



Ignored by Kismet.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> You fucking hypocrite...
> 
> ..you have very little qualms in calling other people it. For no reason.
> 
> But of course, by putting people on ignore, you get to pretend you aren't one of the biggest self-righteous, self-promoting, self-centred hypocrites that I've ever had the misfortune to know.



Charming. Answered by me in a previous post.



Kizmet said:


> Exactly.. this is the kind of insidious media pressure that I'm talking about.... a lot of programmes that claim to be an 'expose' of the exploitation in these clubs actually end up promoting them.. making them seem normal... seem fun.
> 
> Ably assisted by the likes of BK and her fun 'classes'.



He won't let go of the idea that women choosing to go to pole classes of their own free will are being 'exploited' and 'stupid' and 'fools' and 'bored housewives'. I think this attitude, ignoring women's choices and projecting his own moralistic agenda is misogynistic. Women making their own choices about a fitness class are labelled derisively and sneeringly. Not just me. All of them. So are all women working as  strippers 'stupid', as per previous post.

How is this different to the Taliban labelling all unveiled Western women as 'stupid' and 'exploited' if they don't conform to the 'covered-up and don't work' moral position? 

How is this not moralistic and misogynistic?



Citizen66 said:


> I would never have argued against that point. Whoever did needs their head testing.
> 
> Women exercising on poles in the company of women normalises  pole dancing for the entertainment of men?
> 
> That's almost like arguing that men who take showers with each other after sports sessions are advocating flashing, group sex and rape tendencies...



Does Citizen66 get it in the neck from Kismet? No. 



FridgeMagnet said:


> Pole-dancing as fitness is obviously referring in some way to pole-dancing not as fitness, just like kickboxing as fitness is referring blah blah - it's getting something from the association - but I can't quite see how it would mean that doing a pole-dancing class means you have to be fine with actual, real-world abuses of power within pole-dancing clubs. One can run with the sexy connotations of pole-dancing a bit and still object to unfair working conditions, surely? I've played a lot of Virtua Cop but I'm still opposed to arming the police; I play war games but I go on anti-war marches; you know.




Does Fridgemagnet get it in the neck? No.


FridgeMagnet said:


> Well quite. It seems a bit odd to say "you must disclaim any connection with anything to do with X or you are a hypocrite for talking about it"; it seems to presuppose an objection to the entire concept, rather than an objection to abuses that occur with it.



And so on.



FridgeMagnet said:


> I certainly appreciate the argument that even just playing on the idea of pole-dancing being sexy is perpetuating the real-world exploitation and reinforcement of power imbalances that comes with it - I just don't think that, in the grand scheme of things, it's an issue that I'd really put very high up on the list.
> 
> As as you say the "for women" does make a huge difference. It's being recontextualised very severely, which obviously has effects in practice (women pole-dancing for fitness do not operate in the same business world as those pole-dancing professionally) and also conceptually, painting dancing around a pole as an activity as one carefully entered into without constraints or exploitation. Whether it is actually possible to completely "reclaim" it, though, I am not sure.





Louloubelle said:


> Belly dancing has its origins in women only spaces.  It was originally performed in women only environments as a way for older women to teach younger women how tone up the pelvic floor and other muscles to aid childbirth.
> 
> I think pole dancing is sexy, it is without a doubt challenging and demanding exercise and the only time I have a problem with it is when anyone is pressurised or forced to do it against their will or to add sexual elements that they don't really want to add.
> 
> Something that I can't imagine every happening in BK's class and some of the "pole dancing = sleazy exploitation regardless of context" posts are bonkers IMO





Louloubelle said:


> People into S&M enjoy themselves with whips and chains.
> 
> Should we shun them or disapprove because of the historical horrors with which such items can be associated or really, at the end of the day, it it nobody else's business but theirs?
> 
> Some women enjoy pole dancing.  Sometimes as a form of exercise and sometimes because it makes them feel sexy, maybe for other reasons too such as to make money.   Why anyone should get excited about this is beyond me.





Kizmet said:


> I don't care why you said what you said. It was unmitigated bollocks. And incredibly hypocritical.
> 
> I spoke to YOU personally in that way because I think you're a massive hypocrite. As usual what you do to deflect criticism is to try and make out that I'm referring to ALL women by quoting me selectively. I'm not. I just think *you're* an idiot. And anyone who falls for your crap.
> 
> ...




No thank you. I think it's pretty clear what's going on.
The massive, sneering, contempt towards women who work in stip clubs ( 'stupid'). 
This misrepresentation of my position 'promoting the idea that to be sexy a woman NEEDS to slide up and down a pole'...ridiculous, I never said that was my definition of the only way to be sexy.

The immensely moralising tone which is interestingly enough, not responded to by JC2.

JC2 says I'm being a prig, a moraliser.
Mal says I'm a misogynist.
Kismet says I'm a hypocrite exploiting women and perpetuating the sex industry.
None of them have a go at each other's arguments

It's absolutely fucking ridiculous, all this. On a thread about licensing lap dancing clubs and residents rights and legal loopholes, 

we've had a bunch of men lining up to go on the offensive in a highly personal, aggressive way that is notable for one main point:

missing the fucking point completely.

 for fuck's sake. Yes, it is irritating. I think anyone would be irritated by the crap that has gone on.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 9, 2008)

i wouldn't get so worked up about it myself.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

I am fucked off. By the personal attacks, the misrepresentations, the aggression, the blatant, wilful missing of the point.
It's gone on and on for pages and pages.
It's fucking unnecessary.
It's shit.
I felt like pointing out how it was shit and why in some detail.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I am fucked off. By the personal attacks, the misrepresentations, the aggression, the blatant, wilful missing of the point.
> It's gone on and on for pages and pages.
> It's fucking unnecessary.
> It's shit.
> I felt like pointing out how it was shit and why in some detail.


I understand.

The thing is, you have to ask yourself, what do you want to achieve? Convincing the internet that you are right is an unwinnable battle and in the long run will only bring you pain.

Personally, when it comes to these sorts of arguments, I put my case, clarify it if need be, but I don't try to push it any further. I don't see the point. Most people don't change their minds based on one person's exhortations.

In this case, I think you're spot on and a handful of your opponents are tragically wrong, but really, who cares? Taking this shit too seriously does no one any favours.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 9, 2008)




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## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Thanks Crispy.
It's okay. I type fast. And I feel better for having had right of reply. I've just lit a fag and made a cup of tea to celebrate how much more cheerful I feel.

The fact that in the same thread I was simultaneously called 
someone who wanted to ban the sex indutry AND someone who was perpetuating the sex industry.
A misogynist AND a feminist.
A moral crusader AND someone who exploits women's sexuality for money

by several people who instead of looking at their own entirely conflicting positions all went at me

just proves the utter daftness of their various positions. They're taking their own issues and projecting them all on this thread and at me and the stuff they are flinging about just makes me think their positions and attitudes say more about them than anything I have said, or do, on this board or off it.

Bollocks to it. I'm going for a walk.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 9, 2008)

it's a nice day for it


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> it's a nice day for it


Isn't it? Proper autumn


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I am fucked off. By the personal attacks, the misrepresentations, the aggression, the blatant, wilful missing of the point.



Then stop doing it.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The person who brings up pole dancing lessons in the thread about licensing problems with lapdancing clubs is Kismet, by the way.



Because I remembered the hypocrisy of your position from that thread more than 3 years ago.



> Yes, the clubs could do with better regulation... but then again.. perhaps more importantly we could do without glamourising the whole industry so that *stupid young girls* don't think it's ok to take their clothes off and demand £20 from stupid men.



And here's a perfect example of how you twist things... it's quite clear in that quote (which agentsparrow agreed with) that I am referring to stupid young women AND stupid men. But all you did was highlight the bit that says 'women' and claim that makes me a mysoginist.



> Lapdancing clubs are quite different to pole dancing classes. That is obvious. Boxercise classes are quite different to prizefighting.
> Lapdancing goes on. prizefighting goes on.
> I don't hear Kismet saying that boxercise classes are perpetuating the abuses of the prizefighting circuit.



Because a) I don't have an issue with the professional boxing circuit and b) this is a thread about lap-dancing clubs.



> 'Muppets', says Kismet, sneeringly. Pole dancing ain't dancing, he repeats.
> Dismissively negating the experience of the women doing it. Even though he has never attended a pole fitness class or apparently listened to anyone who has been to one, and is basing his position on 'stupid' strippers and 'stupid' men who watch them.



I have danced for a living... I work with classically trained and ballet trained dancers. People who have devoted years to gain the tag of 'dancer'.. not one of them would ever say that pole-dancing lessons teach you to be a 'dancer'.

I am allowed to think anything is stupid that I wish.. you may not like it but it still does not make me a mysoginist.

And finally you make the point that I didn't argue with cit66 or fridgemagnet.

The simple fact is that neither of them called me a mysoginist for no reason. And neither has compared me to the taliban.

You dish out the abuse when it suits you and then play the passive agressive victim when people answer back. Clearly it works on some people here... but not everyone.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Don't be such an idiot. Clearly the people in the first picture are attending the class in an attempt to be as 'sexy' as the woman in the second picture.
> 
> That's the connection.. and that's big lie.. that, for a woman to be 'sexy', she has to slide up and down a pole. That's the big lie that I think your classes promote.



You avoided this post.


----------



## felixthecat (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Don't be such an idiot.* Clearly the people in the first picture are attending the class in an attempt to be as 'sexy' as the woman in the second picture*.
> 
> That's the connection.. and that's big lie.. that, for a woman to be 'sexy', she has to slide up and down a pole. That's the big lie that I think your classes promote.





Kizmet said:


> You avoided this post.



Exercise is bloody boring and these classes are just a different way to exercise whilst having a laugh - believe me its about as unsexy as it comes cos it makes you sweat like a pig. I've done the pole fitness class at the local gym (sweated a lot, laughed a lot, ached a LOT and swore never to do it again cos it might just kill me), the salsacise class, the belly dancing - its all just exercise classes.

I really don't quite understand what the problem is here........but perhaps I'm being thick.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet

you are a misogynist

a loathsome, odious, sadistic excuse for a human being

your insistence that BK is facilitating the exploitation of women by running pole dancing classes is completely illogical.  Your very spiteful and personal attacks on a woman who you must know has survived the most horrific violation and who is still suffering from the after effects is actually quite shocking to witness 

To me you appear to lack empathy and to get some kind of (probably sadistic) kick out of bullying someone using arguments so insane that there seems to me to be no point in engaging with you.  Badger Kitten, just put him on ignore, he's not worth wasting your time on.

I don't agree with BK re everything on this thread but I don't feel the need to subject her to a vicious, personal attack.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

felixthecat said:


> I really don't quite understand what the problem is here........but perhaps I'm being thick.




the problem is that kizmet is really enjoying bullying badger kitten 

IMO


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Kizmet
> 
> you are a misogynist
> 
> ...



The bit I have bolded above is unfair Lou. Completely unfair. BK's history has nothing to do with what they are discussing and it doesn't have to.
Kizmet is disagreeing with her now, he didn't do the thing in her past you are refering to.
You may not like the way he has addressed her on this thread but you can't conflate the two as proof of him being wrong.


----------



## felixthecat (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> the problem is that kizmet is really enjoying bullying badger kitten
> 
> IMO



I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

The more I read back in the thread, the more mistaken I appear to have been.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> the problem is that kizmet is really enjoying bullying badger kitten
> 
> IMO



He's disagreeing with someone on the internet. To use the fact she has been physically attacked in the past as a stick to beat Kizmet with is well out of order imo.

Edit: beaten to it by Rutita.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Kizmet
> 
> you are a misogynist
> 
> a loathsome, odious, sadistic excuse for a human being



Yes. Of course I am dearie.

Unless you can show me something where I have suggested that ALL women are idiots and ONLY all women.. then you're just spouting off more bullshit to defend your mate.



> your insistence that BK is facilitating the exploitation of women by running pole dancing classes is completely illogical.  Your very spiteful and personal attacks on a woman who you must know has survived the most horrific violation and who is still suffering from the after effects is actually quite shocking to witness
> 
> To me you appear to lack empathy and to get some kind of (probably sadistic) kick out of bullying someone using arguments so insane that there seems to me to be no point in engaging with you.  Badger Kitten, just put him on ignore, he's not worth wasting your time on.
> 
> I don't agree with BK re everything on this thread but I don't feel the need to subject her to a vicious, personal attack.



Oh do fuck off louloubelle.

It's ok for your mates to dish out whatever abuse they like.. but it's not ok for anyone to retaliate bacause of something that happened to her?

I don't see how that has any relevance to her behaviour here.. and for you to bring it up as a way of making out that I'm a mysoginist is just more of them same passive agressive bollocks.

Had BK engaged with me on the subject in the way that, say, agentsparrow did.. then there would be discussion not argument. It's as simple as that.

I can't quite believe you'd bring that kind of thing up as a way of point scoring.. but


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> The bit I have bolded above is unfair Lou. Completely unfair. BK's history has nothing to do with what they are discussing and it doesn't have to.




I disagree

Like BK I have endured a serious assault and violation and, like many women who have survived similar experiences, I have struggled to find a way of feeling sexy and feminine and playful and powerful.  IME taking classes in burlesque, pole dancing, belly dancing etc. can be one way for some women to start feeling better about themselves. 

It is NOT always all about pleasing men, exciting men or anything to do with men. 

And to sit here and read loads of vile bollix from kizmet attacking something that BK has herself found helpful and that otehr women have too is really hard to bear. 

he's accusing her of abusing other women while he seems to be unconscious of his own abusive tendencies.  Tendencies that are very evident here 

IMO


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> the problem is that kizmet is really enjoying bullying badger kitten
> 
> IMO



Your opinion is rubbish. And not worth a fig.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I disagree
> 
> Like BK I have endured a serious assault and violation and, like many women who have survived similar experiences, I have struggled to find a way of feeling sexy and feminine and playful and powerful.  IME taking classes in burlesque, pole dancing, belly dancing etc. can be one way for some women to start feeling better about themselves.


I have been sexually assulted too Lou, I know all about it but that does not mean no man can question my perception of things and if they do they are a bully.

If you think kizmet is a bully because of his treatment of BK on this thread that's up to you but it's out of order to bring up her past attack as proof of it.

Bk has repeatedly inisted  that this thread is about licensing, you bringing up her past has made it about something very different now.

Me making this point now isn't me taking sides. I think you have been seriously out of order by bringing that up, albeit I can imagine that wasn't your intention.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I disagree
> 
> Like BK I have endured a serious assault and violation and, like many women who have survived similar experiences, I have struggled to find a way of feeling sexy and feminine and playful and powerful.  IME taking classes in burlesque, pole dancing, belly dancing etc. can be one way for some women to start feeling better about themselves.
> 
> It is NOT always all about pleasing men, exciting men or anything to do with men.



I never said at all that it was all about pleasing men. I said it was perpetuating a sexist lie. Yes these classes can be ONE way for women to start to feel better about themselves.. but I believe it's counterproductive in the long run.

The simple fact is this.. how do I tell my 7 year old daughter that she doesn't need to subscribe to sexist stereotypes to be sexy when older women like yourself perpetuate them?


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> I have been sexually assulted too Lou, I know all about it but that does not mean no man can question my perception of things and if they do they are a bully.



Thank you rutita1.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Like BK I have endured a serious assault and violation and, like many women who have survived similar experiences, I have struggled to find a way of feeling sexy and feminine and playful and powerful.



But what has that got to do with disagreeing with kizmet?

Proper sick bringing that into it.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> I have been sexually assulted too Lou, I know all about it but that does not mean no man can question my perception of things and if they do they are a bully.
> 
> If you think kizmet is a bully because of his treatment of BK on this thread that's up to you but it's out of order to bring up her past attack as proof of it.




Kizmet's discourse is inherently misogynist as as are his attacks on BK IMO

Kizmet is not just questioning her perceptions, he is subjecting her to a sadistic attack.  As you will see if you read his posts. 

Now I have work to do


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

felixthecat said:


> I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> The more I read back in the thread, the more mistaken I appear to have been.



Erm... Badger Kitten was the first person to start slinging insults. She was the one who called me a mysoginist then complained when someone called her one.

Double standards.

Actually BK wasn't the first... louloubelle was. What a huge surprise.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Kizmet's discourse is inherently misogynist as as are his attacks on BK IMO
> 
> Kizmet is not just questioning her perceptions, he is subjecting her to *a sadistic attack.*  As you will see if you read his posts.
> 
> Now I have work to do



This is your opinion Lou, I respect that, but his posts are words on an internet page and can not be compared to the sexual attack she endured. It was not your place to bring it up IMO.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Kizmet's discourse is inherently misogynist as as are his attacks on BK IMO
> 
> Kizmet is not just questioning her perceptions, he is subjecting her to a sadistic attack.  As you will see if you read his posts.



I was questioning her perceptions... it's only when she called me a mysoginist that I lost my temper. Which is totally understandable if you are fair. Which you are not.

What are you trying to say? That because something bad happened to her and you no-one is allowed to disagree with you.. no matter how abusive you get?

Bad shit has happened to a lot of people, louloubelle. Not everyone uses it to gain sympathy.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Kizmet's discourse is inherently misogynist as as are his attacks on BK IMO
> 
> Kizmet is not just questioning her perceptions, he is subjecting her to a sadistic attack.  As you will see if you read his posts.
> 
> Now I have work to do



It's quite tame compared to many poster's standards and I don't see you jumping to, say, cheesypoofs defence when there's a million of them on her.

HTH


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

I can kind of see both sides of the argument here, my idealist side is leaning towards Kizmet, though I have some sympathy with what BK has said too.

I don't think Kizmet is being terribly unfair, though, just meeting passive-aggressive with aggressive, which is fair enough in my book.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> It's quite tame compared to many poster's standards and I don't see you jumping to, say, cheesypoofs defence when there's a million of them on her.
> 
> HTH



It's very tame... I've called her a hypocrite for complaining when someone else called her a name that she dishes out regularly and I called her a self-promoter and a muppet. How on earth does that makes me sadistic?

Oh wait.. I called her an idiot too. Shame on me.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> I can kind of see both sides of the argument here, my idealist side is leaning towards Kizmet, though I have some sympathy with what BK has said too.
> 
> I don't think Kizmet is being terribly unfair, though, just meeting passive-aggressive with aggressive, which is fair enough in my book.



Thanks, 8ball.

This:



Kizmet said:


> The simple fact is this.. how do I tell my 7 year old daughter that she doesn't need to subscribe to sexist stereotypes to be sexy when older women like yourself perpetuate them?



is why I entered this discussion. And for that I get called a mysoginist by two women who really should know better.


----------



## maximilian ping (Oct 9, 2008)

blokes who pay to have private lap dances are freaks. i just don't get it. so unsexy and humiliating (for both people) it's incredible. yak


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> I can kind of see both sides of the argument here, my idealist side is leaning towards Kizmet, though I have some sympathy with what BK has said too.
> 
> I don't think Kizmet is being terribly unfair, though, just meeting passive-aggressive with aggressive, which is fair enough in my book.



It seems that if you treat a woman and her opinions as inferior and to be ignored then you're a sexist but if you meet her on a level playing field and dare to argue back then you're a misogynist. So it's a win win situation then for us terrible blokes.

This is what I have deduced thus far.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> It seems that if you treat a woman and her opinions as inferior and to be ignored then you're a sexist but if you meet her on a level playing field and dare to argue back then you're a misogynist. So it's a win win situation then for us terrible blokes.
> 
> This is what I have deduced thus far.



Not all women. Just certain ones. Especially on here.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

maximilian ping said:


> blokes who pay to have private lap dances are freaks. i just don't get it. so unsexy and humiliating (for both people) it's incredible. yak



Say that after 5 grams of coke and a few hours of peer pressure.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Not all women. Just certain ones. Especially on here.



I meant on this thread; it wasn't a universal observation.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> I meant on this thread; it wasn't a universal observation.



Ok, sorry. Fair enough, mate.


----------



## maximilian ping (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> Say that after 5 grams of coke and a few hours of peer pressure.



that might do it


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> (which agentsparrow agreed with)


Hang on, I'd just like to point out here that my stance on how play pole dancing interacts with real pole dancing is not quite in agreement with you, but somewhere inbetween yours and BK's stance. Which some might say is contradictory - I'd say it's nuenced. Life is complex and nuenced, and sometimes our theorising about that needs to reflect that. 

I'd also say that I don't think women should be told they can't express their sexuality in a certain way - however, at the same time I do wish that they would also give some thought as to where those expressions of sexuality come from and how they fit into existing attitudes, iyswim. 



> I have danced for a living... I work with classically trained and ballet trained dancers. People who have devoted years to gain the tag of 'dancer'.. not one of them would ever say that pole-dancing lessons teach you to be a 'dancer'.


Admittedly this is why I tell my mum that line dancing is so not dancing. 



Citizen66 said:


> It seems that if you treat a woman and her opinions as inferior and to be ignored then you're a sexist but if you meet her on a level playing field and dare to argue back then you're a misogynist. So it's a win win situation then for us terrible blokes.
> 
> This is what I have deduced thus far.



Well, it was my reading of the thread that the responses to BK became, _personalised_, very quickly rather than engaging with what she was actually saying. And as I've seen that happen a fair few times in similar situtations, and it's also happened to me, I was just observing a trend that I've noticed. I've been on threads before where I've argued that the sex industry might not be problem free, and completely out of the blue I'm been accused of being ugly, jealous, bitter, fridged etc. Is that really on? Because I don't think it is, particularly when you're trying to  abstain from personal insults yourself.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Hang on, I'd just like to point out here that my stance on how play pole dancing interacts with real pole dancing is not quite in agreement with you, but somewhere inbetween yours and BK's stance. Which some might say is contradictory - I'd say it's nuenced. Life is complex and nuenced, and sometimes our theorising about that needs to reflect that.
> 
> I'd also say that I don't think women should be told they can't express their sexuality in a certain way - however, at the same time I do wish that they would also give some thought as to where those expressions of sexuality come from and how they fit into existing attitudes, iyswim.



No.. I got that... and I wasn't suggesting you agreed with me entirely.. just it was a point that you agreed with.

Actually I'd guess that our stances aren't so far apart.. I totally understand BK's point about it as exercise.. but was getting more and more frustrated with her refusal to accept that there is any connection whastsoever and that it leads to the perpetuating of a sexist myth.

The problem here is.. as a man.. it seems I am not allowed to express a nuanced opinion or to try and get people to think about these things without getting called a misogynist.



> Admittedly this is why I tell my mum that line dancing is so not dancing.


 Synchronised Swinging. 



> Well, it was my reading of the thread that the responses to BK became, _personalised_, very quickly rather than engaging with what she was actually saying. And as I've seen that happen a fair few times in similar situtations, and it's also happened to me, I was just observing a trend that I've noticed. I've been on threads before where I've argued that the sex industry might not be problem free, and completely out of the blue I'm been accused of being ugly, jealous, bitter, fridged etc. Is that really on? Because I don't think it is, particularly when you're trying to  abstain from personal insults yourself.



The reverse is true too.. that as a bloke.. trying to make a even vaguely critical point leads very quickly to accusations of sexism and misogyny.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> No.. I got that... and I was suggesting you agreed with me entirely.. just it was a point that you agreed with.
> 
> Actually I'd guess that our stances aren't so far apart.. I totally understand BK's point about it as exercise.. but was getting more and more frustrated with her refusal to accept that there is any connection whastsoever and that it leads to the perpetuating of a sexist myth.


And that's the problem with urban. Arguments become so polarised that any common ground never comes to light. 



> Synchronised Swinging.


 My mother certainly doesn't do that! 




> The reverse is true too.. that as a bloke.. trying to make a even vaguely critical point leads very quickly to accusations of sexism and misogyny.



Which in those instances is also wrong. However, I reckon I've more often seen a single female poster with a feminist stance defending herself against a group of male posters using personal slights, than the opposite way round. And when I have seen the opposite, it's usually because the male poster in question has made assumptions or generalisations about women, or has been blatently very sexist. Sometimes they are trolling, sometimes they are not. The reaction also doesn't tend to be just from female posters either.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 9, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Well, it was my reading of the thread that the responses to BK became, _personalised_, very quickly rather than engaging with what she was actually saying.



Louloubelle popped up to reveal kizmet's old moniker, stated he was a misogynist and Badger Kitten thanked her for the heads up.

That's where it got personal from my recollections.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Louloubelle popped up to reveal kizmet's old moniker, stated he was a misogynist and Badger Kitten thanked her for the heads up.
> 
> That's where it got personal from my recollections.



That's pretty much exactly how it happened.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> And that's the problem with urban. Arguments become so polarised that any common ground never comes to light.



And part of that problem is that some people just stand up for their 'mates' without ever bothering to really read what's going on



> My mother certainly doesn't do that!



I meant 'of arms and legs'.. what did you think I meant.. hmm?





> Which in those instances is also wrong. However, I reckon I've more often seen a single female poster with a feminist stance defending herself against a group of male posters using personal slights, than the opposite way round. And when I have seen the opposite, it's usually because the male poster in question has made assumptions or generalisations about women, or has been blatently very sexist. Sometimes they are trolling, sometimes they are not. The reaction also doesn't tend to be just from female posters either.



I'd say, from my experience of urban, it's the other way round... although there are phases when there is a glut of new male posters when what you describe is correct.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

> Becase I remembered the hypocrisy of your position from that thread more than 3 years ago.



It's only hypocritical to YOU, because of your beliefs and this shows how you brought it up in order to launch a personal attack on what I do in my soare time - not what the thread is about at all - based on what you have decided is 'hypocrisy'  




> And here's a perfect example of how you twist things... it's quite clear in that quote (which agentsparrow agreed with) that I am referring to stupid young women AND stupid men. But all you did was highlight the bit that says 'women' and claim that makes me a mysoginist.



This is a lie. As you would see if you referred to the first point I make when I answered you on that subject.

Look for yourself.



> The person who brings up pole dancing lessons in the thread about licensing problems with lapdancing clubs is Kismet, by the way.
> 
> ''Quote:
> Originally Posted by Kizmet
> ...






> Because a) I don't have an issue with the professional boxing circuit and b) this is a thread about lap-dancing clubs.


So it is about your 'issue' then - a moral issue. Odd, as you used to attend the clubs regularly. The fervor of the converted, perhaps. Nobody would argue that a boxercise class is like a prizefight, but you can't accept a pole class is not like a lap club. This is inconsistent.




> I have danced for a living... I work with classically trained and ballet trained dancers. People who have devoted years to gain the tag of 'dancer'.. not one of them would ever say that pole-dancing lessons teach you to be a 'dancer'.



No, and nobody would say someone doing a boxercise class was a boxer either. Straw man.  



> I am allowed to think anything is stupid that I wish.. you may not like it but it still does not make me a mysoginist.



No, but as I have pointed out, your sneering dismissal of thehundreds of thuosands of women who do pole and burlesque classes as 'muppets, exploited fools and bored housewives' is contemptous.  I went into this already. 

I said 'He won't let go of the idea that women choosing to go to pole classes of their own free will are being 'exploited' and 'stupid' and 'fools' and 'bored housewives'. I think this attitude, ignoring women's choices and projecting his own moralistic agenda is misogynistic. Women making their own choices about a fitness class are labelled derisively and sneeringly. Not just me. All of them. So are all women working as strippers 'stupid', as per previous post.

How is this different to the Taliban labelling all unveiled Western women as 'stupid' and 'exploited' if they don't conform to the 'covered-up and don't work' moral position? 

How is this not moralistic and misogynistic?'

And what about this little gem?




			
				Kismet said:
			
		

> That'll probably be flatulance from hanging upside down with your legs apart for so long...



That's what you said. That's what really gave it away.



> And finally you make the point that I didn't argue with cit66 or fridgemagnet.
> 
> The simple fact is that neither of them called me a mysoginist for no reason. And neither has compared me to the taliban.



You deliberately brought up pole dancing lessons to have a go.
You have throughout this thread talked about the exploitative nature of lap clubs and the 'stupid' people who work  there and who go there.
You have castigated me relentlessly for something I do in my spare time in a sneering, contemptous way. You have painted a picture of all women who do those sorts of classes for fun as stupid and your despising of them is clear.

Yet you were a regular visitor to these clubs. Most weeks you said. Corporate jollies, you said. Looking at 'snatches from this angle...snatches from that angle'.

You have the nerve to lecture me about hypocrisy?
You have the nerve to say I exploited women?
You can't see how your attitude to women who don't fit your personal prejudiced morality  - who choose to dance to earn money, or who choose to dance for fun and exercise - is nothing but sneering and misogynistic?

You don't have to despise all other races to be a racist.
You don't have to despise all women to be misogynist.




> You dish out the abuse when it suits you and then play the passive agressive victim when people answer back. Clearly it works on some people here... but not everyone.



Passive-aggressive victim?
I told you when I thought you were being prejudiced, and unfair. There was nothing passive about it, sunshine.

I'm not a misandrist, but I sure as hell despise you, not for your morality - fine, you changed your mind about the strip clubs you used to hang about in -  but for your hypocrisy, your contempt and your attitude and behaviour.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

You can get over yourself with your attempt to make out you were blamelessly posting away when the nasty ladies set about you, Kismet.

You were shit-stirring from the moment you decided to raise pole dancing classes as an opportunity, you admitted, to castigate me for ''hypocrisy''

Right there. Your first post. You were on the offensive.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Second post in thread by Kismet, following up after introducing pole classes for express purpose of having a go at alleged 'hypocrisy.'


What can the second post be? 

It is Kismet alleging that by starting this thread my motive is 'bringing down the competition'.

As in - I am equivalent to an exploitative lap dancing club owner.

Hostile intent, demonstrated again.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Third post

 Asks why am I ''objecting'' to lap clubs busting licence conditions when I ''apparently teach these skills to others''. What skills? Lap dancing and sex shows? No I don't. But this is where he is going, see....

He jumps on this thread with a very specific agenda.

1. To make out the pole dancing is the same as running a sex encounter lap joint, exploitative, bad etc

2. To have a go at me for this. Even though
(i) it's unfair
(ii) it's untrue


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Louloubelle popped up to reveal kizmet's old moniker, stated he was a misogynist and Badger Kitten thanked her for the heads up.
> 
> That's where it got personal from my recollections.



Actually, I've just reread up until that bit. With a bit of distance, I can see both Kizmet's perception of what he was doing, but also why Badger Kitten took it as a personal attack. It does feel attacking to have someone bringing up stuff you've posted previously and using it against you - however, I see that for Kizmet that was important to his argument.

Edit: though of course Kizmet wasn't the only person on this thread locking horns with BK, but tbh, perhaps this thread should now just die a death. Is it really worth arguing about anymore?


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

To BK:

As fascinating and entertaining this car crash is have you considered just walking away from the wreckage or are you going to continue to ram the car into the wall until you've proved your point?  I recall a similar thread of yours that went the same way.  You may be able to explain it away because of other people's hostile intent, but you have a part in how these things progress.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

I call it 'doing a william'

 sorry will


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

Good term.  Should go in the Urban Dictionary.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> This is a lie. As you would see if you referred to the first point I make when I answered you on that subject.



It's not a lie... you took a paragraph of mine and only highlighted the bit pertaining to women as an example of my misogyny.

No amount of bullshit justification will change that.



> So it is about your 'issue' then - a moral issue. Odd, as you used to attend the clubs regularly. The fervor of the converted, perhaps. Nobody would argue that a boxercise class is like a prizefight, but you can't accept a pole class is not like a lap club. This is inconsistent.



I didn't say that a pole dance class was LIKE a lap club. I said that you perpetuate the same sexist myth.



> No, and nobody would say someone doing a boxercise class was a boxer either. Straw man.


 You continuously refer to them as 'dancers'.



> No, but as I have pointed out, your sneering dismissal of thehundreds of thuosands of women who do pole and burlesque classes as 'muppets, exploited fools and bored housewives' is contemptous.



I said that your classes don't turn muppets into dame margot fonteyn.

I didn't say that people who went to these classes were 'exploited fools' (or at least I) don't remember saying it.



> Passive-aggressive victim?
> I told you when I thought you were being prejudiced, and unfair. There was nothing passive about it, sunshine.



Do you even know what passive-aggressive means?



> I'm not a misandrist, but I sure as hell despise you, not for your morality - fine, you changed your mind about the strip clubs you used to hang about in -  but for your hypocrisy, your contempt and your attitude and behaviour.



It's fairly clear that I don't care whether you like me or not, isn't it, bk? I have contempt for the way you conduct these arguments and my behaviour has been as a reaction to yours.

I think you're an idiot and a hypocrite.. It's unlikely that I'm going to care much what you think about me. Everything I've said about you... self-interested, self-obsessed and self-promoting..  I am happy to stand by. Not my type of person at all.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

When a bunch of blokes

ignore the original post and the point you are making
ignore repeated explanations of the OP and carry on chucking out personal attacks
decide to call you all sorts of contradictory things from feminiazi to misogynist exploiter of women, hypocrite, prude, stupid

indicating a personal agenda to belittle and attack

should you

a) try to keep the thread on track and keep going 
b) call them on it after severe provocation and put your point of view across
c) leave the thread

You can stand up to it or you can participate in a trend for a woman poster to say something that male posters disagree with, and get called a whole heap of shit. 

Is it feeding the bullies to stand up to them? Or is it feeding their desire to drown you out in a hail of abuse to let them drive you away, silenced?

Do they want you to respond to their baiting, or do they want to show anyone who disagrees with them that  they will hurl crap at you until you give up?

Is it better that I bite my lip at the bullshit they are coming uip with and feel that I shouldn't post anymore, or that I respond and feel better for having put my point across?

Why is nobody suggesting Kismet and the others leave it alone if they can't engage without getting nasty and personal?

Kismet was after all the one who came in wand with his very first post went on the offensive about my personal life to go on a personal attack, instead of talk about licensing.

JC2 was the one who repeatedly decided to ignore what I started the thread about in order to chuck the 'moralist, prig crap about.

I wonder, I think there is some personal shit going on even though I have never met these people.

I think I'll ask for a new log in. A gender-neutral one.
Maybe that would help.

I don't post on here that much. But when I do, it would be nice to think people were engagaing with the posts, not who they think I am.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> You can get over yourself with your attempt to make out you were blamelessly posting away when the nasty ladies set about you, Kismet.
> 
> You were shit-stirring from the moment you decided to raise pole dancing classes as an opportunity, you admitted, to castigate me for ''hypocrisy''
> 
> Right there. Your first post. You were on the offensive.



I didn't say I was blamelessly posting away.. I was quite obviously asking you about what I believe is your hypocrisy.

But that doesn't make me a misogynist.. and it's your inability to engage in a reasonable discussion about it without resorting to calling people names that caused all this fuss.

I also have never said that your classes are the 'same' as lap dance clubs. I said that they buy into the same lie and perpetuate the same sexist myth.

I've been saying that over and over.. but you continue to try and misrepresent what I was saying and generalising it to try and make it seem that I mean something different.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I don't post on here that much. But when I do, it would be nice to think people were engagaing with the posts, not who they think I am.



Yes. DO that. Then at the very least you will remove any objection to you about being self-promoting and self-obsessed.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> When a bunch of blokes
> 
> ignore the original post and the point you are making
> ignore repeated explanations of the OP and carry on chucking out personal attacks
> ...



a) for a bit
b) for a bit

d) try not to care so much. it's the internet. the vast majority of people in the world do not agree with you on anything. This is true of everyone. I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you've lost, or that it's not worth fighting. Just that it's not important. if you make it important, all you end with is pain.

that's how I do the internet anyway. I find it much more enjoyable.


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

Do either of you really think you will walk away having won the argument?  Not likely.  Sooner or later it's going to have to stop and the outcome is not going to be satisfactory for either of you.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

golightly said:


> Do either of you really think you will walk away having won the argument?  Not likely.  Sooner or later it's going to have to stop and the outcome is not going to be satisfactory for either of you.


exactly. internet arguing is a completely dead-end pastime.


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

Bin?

There's nothing left but personal attacks now.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Actually, I've just reread up until that bit. With a bit of distance, I can see both Kizmet's perception of what he was doing, but also why Badger Kitten took it as a personal attack. It does feel attacking to have someone bringing up stuff you've posted previously and using it against you - however, I see that for Kizmet that was important to his argument.
> 
> Edit: though of course Kizmet wasn't the only person on this thread locking horns with BK, but tbh, perhaps this thread should now just die a death. Is it really worth arguing about anymore?



I just re-read it too.. just to be sure, like. And although it wasn't exactly best friends discussing.. it was fairly under control.

It wasn't until louloubelles intervention and unfounded accusations of misogyny that things got ugly.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 9, 2008)

So, does anybody actually want to have a discussion about possible solutions to making lap dancing clubs more accountable, and sorting out a system where girls can dance to whatever level of interaction with a client they wish to without pressure to go further?

Or is it more fun to carry on with this bollocks?


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Or is it more fun to carry on with this bollocks?



You can have too much of a good thing you know.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Throughout this thread Kismet, you had the opportunity from the word go to engage with the subject - the licensing of lap clubs. Instead, you went in from your very first post for a personal attack, not on the subject, but on me, because of what I do.

You made it personal. You said it was to attack me - personally - about my personal life - with the charge of 'hypocrisy'.

A charge you must have thought would be experienced as a personal attack and off topic.
How the fuck you can possibly say that me posting on the TV forum under a pseudonym is 'self-obsessed' and 'self-promoting' I have no idea. Is everyone here self obsessed and self-promiting when the post under a pseudonym?

You were the one who brought up my personal life.
You made it all about me, personally.

Why? I don't know you. I've never met you. I didn't even know you were a poster who went for me 3 years ago, when I 'd just joined the board, when nobody knew who I was -  because you changed your name.

You raised the old thread and what went on it it, that was when I started to guess who you were and LLB confirmed it.

Great. Someone I don't know just decided to make a random thread all about his personal desire to get personal about my personal life, whilst a bunch of other people I don't know decied to get in there as well and call me everything from feminist to misogynist to moralist.

Could you not have made your point without doing the 'let's attack this woman for her hypocrisy' thing? And you think I'm somehow passive aggressive? jesus.

You have never met me and I have never done anything to you, so what the fuck was the point of going in on that tack other than to be spiteful, offensive, self righteous - and hypocritical, since - as you raised it - you used to be a regular punter at Browns.

Can I ask you a question?

Do you consider yourself to be a hypocrite? Do you feel bad that you used to go there every week? Is that why you are going in for the personal attacks on me?

I can see the point of your point, but not the spite behind it. It's personal, from someone I've never met.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, at least I've established that it's other people and their personal bloody agendas.

Walk away time for me: what is the point when people can't respond to what you write, only who they think you are.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> what is the point when people can't respond to what you write, only who they think you are.


No point at all. So usually I don't even bother with the counter-attack.


----------



## XR75 (Oct 9, 2008)

To get back to the subject.



Badger Kitten said:


> As I have explained _ad nauseam _ JC2  - and as the documentary you did not see explained
> 
> 1. Since the 2003 Licensing Act, lap dancing places since 2003 can apply for a public entertainment licence



Why is this a problem?



> 2. This means they are treated like a kareoke bar, coffee shop or jazz club.



Why is this a problem?



> 3. Local residents get almost no powers of veto.
> 9. Residents who live and work in a town and pay council tax are surely entitled to some say as to what they want their town to be like.
> 4. Often they do not find out that it is to be a lap dancing place til it is open.
> 5. Lapdancing places make a lot of money. They can open in prime town centre areas. They can outbid the coffee shop, jazz club and live music venue,



How much of a say do they get in other developments?Why is this a problem concerning lapdancing and not other businesses?



> 6. Lapdancing places attract groups of revved up, drunk, horny men. Lots of lapdancing places in a small area attract them even more and mean the clubs compete to pull in punters. That means packing in more girls ( who pay for the privilege) and more competition to get the men to pay up. That means upping the ante - offering 2 for 1, buy 2 get one free, or sex acts. Or the dancers not getting much  money.



I'll just ignore the first part of that comment.As for the second part,should all shops price fix and stock the same quality of stock or does that apply only to lapdancing?



> 7.  Sex acts however are banned under the licensing conditions. The licences are issued under a 'no touching - no soliciting - no lewd conduct'- rules.



Again how is this specific to lapdancing and not other businesses.



> 8. If the places were licenced as sex encounter clubs - which is what many now are - because parking morality at the door, two naked girls wriggling on your lap and then fingering each other inches from your face - is a sex act -



How is that the case with all lapdancing venues.Why should they all be treated as though they were doing that.




> 10. Following a lot of distressed complaints to local councils, this has become a national issue and a cross party group of MPs has backed reform. It was the Govt's bill that changed the rules, and what residents are saying is that in practice, it has not worked. The bill was meant to speed up red tape for live music venues applying for licences. A loophole in it has meant lapdancing places - over 300 in 2 years - have sprung up - with no consultation of residents and which are breaching licensing regs - designed to protect residents and workers.



Protect them from what exactly and what's to protect the rest of us from career politicians and people like this http://www.object.org.uk/ .


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

I think your questions have already been answered, XR.


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 9, 2008)

I remember another monster strip club thread once before??? does get people going ad infinitum


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Throughout this thread Kismet, you had the opportunity from the word go to engage with the subject - the licensing of lap clubs. Instead, you went in from your very first post for a personal attack, not on the subject, but on me, because of what I do.
> 
> You made it personal. You said it was to attack me - personally - about my personal life - with the charge of 'hypocrisy'.



Because what you do (in this context) is absolutely related to the topic. And it is central to the point of my argument that you can understand that.

But your refusal to try.. and then your baseless accusations wound me up.



> A charge you must have thought would be experienced as a personal attack and off topic



Personal, yes. Attack, no. Off topic, No.



> How the fuck you can possibly say that me posting on the TV forum under a pseudonym is 'self-obsessed' and 'self-promoting' I have no idea. Is everyone here self obsessed and self-promiting when the post under a pseudonym?



That's a different topic.. and you really really don't want me to go into it.



> Could you not have made your point without doing the 'let's attack this woman for her hypocrisy' thing? And you think I'm somehow passive aggressive? jesus.



Erm.. the point is that I tried.. last time and this time.. but you have become increasingly hypocritical and manipulative each time.



> You have never met me and I have never done anything to you, so what the fuck was the point of going in on that tack other than to be spiteful, offensive, self righteous - and hypocritical, since - as you raised it - you used to be a regular punter at Browns.
> 
> Can I ask you a question?
> 
> ...



There are things that I'm hypocritical about.. and usually when someone points it out to me I try and change it.

There is no element of this discussion that is related to my own personal issues except the one that I have been clear about. So let me ask you that question:

"how do I tell my 7 year old daughter that she doesn't need to subscribe to sexist stereotypes to be sexy when older women like yourself perpetuate them?"


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> "how do I tell my 7 year old daughter that she doesn't need to subscribe to sexist stereotypes to be sexy when older women like yourself perpetuate them?"



You let her know that she has a choice and help her understand that if she wants to be in control, she needs to be aware that she will inevitably be judged for whatever she does and doesn't do. Unfortunately this is the world she has been born into. Your job is to help her understand it.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> You let her know that she has a choice and help her understand that if she wants to be in control, she needs to be aware that she will inevitably be judged for whatever she does and doesn't do. Unfortunately this is the world she has been born into. Your job is to help her understand it.



That's MY job. However, as valuable as a father is.. I don't think he can ever be a role-model in the same way.

I think it would make my job much easier if, amongst other things, older women refrain from: "glamourising the whole industry."

It's not hugely different to making the point that the media imposes stereotypes of thinness upon young girls today.. and that older rolemodels who make a big deal out of dieting and moaning about body issues don't help defeat them.


----------



## yardbird (Oct 9, 2008)

No big deal here, just to say that I do get pissed off with some of you lot -
on BK's behalf


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm sure she'll appreciate your support.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

Tbf Kizmet, if BK is right and you have admitted to regularly frequenting pole dancing clubs on here in the past, that's also part of the wider problem, and making the industry mainstream.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Tbf Kizmet, if BK is right and you have admitted to regularly frequenting pole dancing clubs on here in the past, that's also part of the wider problem, and making the industry mainstream.



Yeah I know. But what can one do about their past? We're talking about nearly 15 years ago. And it's from going into places like that and meeting some of the girls and subsequently going out with some that I've got an understanding of what it's like from the inside.

Since then I've been once with an ex girlfriend who was desperate to see for herself.

I don't think any of that makes me a hypocrite. Everyone's got to learn from somewhere.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

I understand what you are saying all right - that pole dancing clubs perpetuate sexist stereotypes.

And it may startle you to know that I have thought about it all by myself. Long, long ago. In depth, calmly and thoughtfully.


And I have come to a different conclusion to you.
That does not make me hypocritical.
Or stupid.
Or manipulative.

I have thought about it and discussed it. It is a mark of your subjective and personal dislike and disrespect for who you think I am that you apparently assume I am incapable of doing so, or that I wouldn't even bother to think about it. I've heard all the arguments for and against and so have the other people dancing in the class, I do not need you to spell them out yet again. Because we disagree with you, that doesn't make us hypocrites. It means we disagree with you and have chosen to do so.

Not only that, but I explained quite carefully why I think as I do over and over. These are my beliefs, these are my experiences. I experience joy, and pleasure and satisfaction in choosing to do what I do.  I do not feel degraded. I do not feel like I am colluding in a sexist myth. I feel the exact opposite. Not only do I experience it, but rationally and intellectually I do not accept it either. I can see the points of your argument - I could make it for you - but I find it not to be as compelling as the argument against it, the one I am convinced by.


You can disagree with me and tell me what to think all you like; the fact is that I don't find merit in the arguments that it demeans and degrades women and perpetuates sterotypes for me or anyone else.

Your daughter is her own person already but she is only 7. When she grows up and is a woman herself, she may very well disagree with you about all sorts of things.She will find out that you are not the sole arbiter of what is wrong and right and what constitutes sexism. She will find out that people have different opinions and she will make up her own mind. As she is 7 you can tell her what you want. You can tell her that you spent several hours having a go at someone on the internet who you've never met and don't know, because you thought she was wrong and you were right. You can decide not to mention it. I doubt she knows or cares what sexism is, or pole dancing, or Browns and she will never come to my classes.

I hope you can show her as she grows up  that it is possible for men and women to have different ideas and make their own different choices about what they consider to be true and false and right and wrong and still talk to her politely if she goes to a burlesque class or a pole class when she is old enough to know what she thinks for herself.



It's not what you tell her, it is what you show her. I hope you show her tolerance and respect.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I have thought about it and discussed it. It is a mark of your subjective and personal dislike and disrespect for who you think I am that you apparently assume I am incapable of doing so, or that I wouldn't even bother to think about it. I've heard all the arguments for and against and so have the other people dancing in the class, I do not need you to spell them out yet again. Because we disagree with you, that doesn't make us hypocrites. It means we disagree with you and have chosen to do so.



Don't just say you've discussed it and leave it at that. You haven't discussed it here. So do it.

In your passage of advice to give to my daughter.. at no stage did you actually deal with the question.. of course it's what I tell her.. as well as what I show her.. as well as what the media tells her.. as well as what other members of society tell her. So would you like to start with that?


----------



## Meltingpot (Oct 9, 2008)

Crispy said:


> exactly. internet arguing is a completely dead-end pastime.



For the people involved, maybe, but what should happen is that a range of different points get made by different people in the course of the thread which give a reasonable picture of the arguments for and against.

I'm feeling a bit fragile atm which is why I don't care to participate in threads which get heated or abusive, such as this one has been tbh, but I can still enjoy reading threads where there's been a "frank exchange of views." I'd much prefer to see people discussing things politely and respectfully, but in all honesty that isn't the way things run on here. You either accept it or leave.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Your question is a 'how long have you been beating your wife question'.



"how do I tell my 7 year old daughter that she doesn't need to subscribe to sexist stereotypes to be sexy when older women like yourself perpetuate them?"

It's a 'how do I tell my daughter that....

she doesn't need to eat meat when older women like you do?
she does need to pray to Jesus when older women like you don't pray?
she ought to stand up straight when older women like you slouch?
she mustn't smoke cigarettes when older women like you smoke?


I disagree with the premise of it. And anyway

1. 'sexist stereotype' is not defined
2. 'to be sexy' is not defined
3. I disagree that I am perpetuating a sexist stereotype.

So I'm not going to answer your question.

What you seem to be implying is that all women have some kind of obligation to be the kind of woman you would like your daughter to grow up to be.

They don't.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Don't just say you've discussed it and leave it at that. You haven't discussed it here. So do it.



Why the fuck should I? It's a thread about licensing lap dance places, that was what I started it for. You have not actually given a coherent explanation of why it is wrong and perpetuates sexist stereotypes for me to run a small pole dancing class for fun, you've just assumed you are right and I am too stupid to see why there is a connection between poledancing classes and perpetuating sexist steotypes.

I don't have to defend my beliefs to you  - in any case, going on past interaction you would not listen, you would  sneer and dismiss them.

I am morally fine with what I do.
I am intellectually fine with it.
I am fine with it as a woman, as a feminist, as a whatever.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Your question is a 'how long have you been beating your wife question'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Avoiding the question with a series of deflectionary tactics. 
What a massive surprise, bk. And this is the basic reason why I feel about you the way I do.



> What you seem to be implying is that all women have some kind of obligation to be the kind of woman you would like your daughter to grow up to be.
> 
> They don't.



And a not very subtle attempt to porttray me as telling people what to do.

That's not what I'm implying at all. Like agentsparrow I just wish people would think about stuff like this before perpetuating myths. You say you thought it through.. I think it's fairly clear you didn't.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Why the fuck should I? It's a thread about licensing lap dance places, that was what I started it for. You have not actually given a coherent explanation of why it is wrong and perpetuates sexist stereotypes for me to run a small pole dancing class for fun, you've just assumed you are right and I am too stupid to see why there is a connection between poledancing classes and perpetuating sexist steotypes.
> 
> I don't have to defend my beliefs to you  - in any case, going on past interaction you would not listen, you would  sneer and dismiss them.
> 
> ...



I don't think you're too stupid, bk.. I just think you don't much care about the impact. Even though you say you do. Which is where the whole bit about being self-interested comes from.

There are other people on this thread who can understand the connection between play pole dancing and the real thing. So it's not that I haven't explained.. it must just be that you haven't got a reply.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

''Pole dancing came out of the stripping industry, where women dance naked around a pole to tempt men who pay them for private dances.

This is sleazy and exploitative. It perpetuates a myth of a willing woman who can be bought, who is just a body - commoditised entertainment.

When women play on poles, they're doing their bit to eroticise and normalise what is sexist behaviour - they are reducing themselves to male fantasy, acting out an eroticicised symbol that was created by men, not women.

Instead of acting on their own fantasies, women are colluding with mens' - and it is a dangerous fantasy that disempowers women.

It is wrong for women to put on the high heels and lingerie of strippers, to alter their body through diet and to paint their nails and dye their hair and dance about in a fetishised dream of what please men. It cheapens them - and it is not real....''

There's your argument about why pole dancing perpetuates sexist myths. 


See, I have thought about it.

But I disagree with it.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> There is no element of this discussion that is related to my own personal issues except the one that I have been clear about. So let me ask you that question:
> 
> "how do I tell my 7 year old daughter that she doesn't need to subscribe to sexist stereotypes to be sexy when older women like yourself perpetuate them?"



In your old user name your photo was of you in drag wearing some kind of cleopatra outfit.  You also seemed completely open about the fact that you enjoyed being kicked and slapped by dominant women.  I  have no problem with any of these things at all, I'm just a little confused as to why men dressing up and doing "alternative" things is OK but women who enjoy dressing to feel sexy up are somehow a danger to your daughter.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> ''Pole dancing came out of the stripping industry, where women dance naked around a pole to tempt men who pay them for private dances.
> 
> This is sleazy and exploitative. It perpetuates a myth of a willing woman who can be bought, who is just a body - commoditised entertainment.
> 
> ...



Did I write that? I don't think I did. It's close to my argument but not exactly it.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> In your old user name your photo was of you in drag wearing some kind of cleopatra outfit.



Erm.. that was from a modelling job and it was supposed to be a pharoah.



> You also seemed completely open about the fact that you enjoyed being kicked and slapped by dominant women.  I  have no problem with any of these things at all, I'm just a little confused as to why men dressing up and doing "alternative" things is OK but women who enjoy dressing to feel sexy up are somehow a danger to your daughter.



Erm.. that wasn't me.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Erm.. that was supposed to be a pharoah.





If you say so 





Kizmet said:


> Erm.. that wasn't me.




yes it was 

I have a very good memory 

in fact I gave up posting on the last thread after giving you an online kicking and you replied that you enjoyed it and gave me an online £25



as anyone who can access an archived version will be able to confirm


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> yes it was
> 
> I have a very good memory
> 
> ...



I think that was meant as a throwaway joke. Never in any seriousness have I ever said I'm into being dominated.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Did I write that? I don't think I did. It's close to my argument but not exactly it.



No, I wrote it for you, based on what I have heard scores of time before when discussing the subject of pole dancing classes.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> If you say so



They told me 'tough and powerful pharoah of egypt'.... they made me look like a girl.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> They told me 'tough and powerful pharoah of egypt'.... they made me look like a girl.



You don't have to pretend that you didn't enjoy it


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> No, I wrote it for you, based on what I have heard scores of time before when discussing the subject of pole dancing classes.



Well, you got it wrong.

I don't think it's _wrong_ to do it. I think it's counterproductive.. and I don't think it sends a very good message out to younger generations.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Well, you got it wrong.
> 
> I don't think it's _wrong_ to do it. I think it's counterproductive.. and I don't think it sends a very good message out to younger generations.



c'mon

it's a bunch of women having a giggle whilst keeping fit and feeling a bit sexy 

not even comparable with thongs and "porn star" t shirts for 7 years olds and the plethora of Playboy merchandise that children seem to want to have these days. 

Big corporations are recruiting kids to market all kinds of products for them and there are very real dangers to kids out there and a bunch of women attending a pole dancing class has got to rate as pretty low on the dangertokidzometer surely?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> ''Pole dancing came out of the stripping industry, where women dance naked around a pole to tempt men who pay them for private dances.
> 
> This is sleazy and exploitative. It perpetuates a myth of a willing woman who can be bought, who is just a body - commoditised entertainment.
> 
> ...



I pretty much agree with that.  Though I can see how in most senses and very likely in almost all instances the pole-dancing classes are harmless fun, I think they are a sad reflection on how badly feminism has stalled.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> I pretty much agree with that.  Though I can see how in most senses and very likely in almost all instances the pole-dancing classes are harmless fun, I think they are a sad reflection on how badly feminism has stalled.


Like swapping burqa fashion tips.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> c'mon
> 
> it's a bunch of women having a giggle whilst keeping fit and feeling a bit sexy
> 
> ...



Absolutely. And if there were any of those corporate types here then you'd really get a chance to see what I'm like when I want to be sadistic.

I do think it's only a small part of the problem.. but it's still a part and it winds me up when people won't accept it or make out that I'm a woman hater for mentioning it.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Like swapping burqa fashion tips.



Linky?

Or was that a refrerence I missed?


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> I pretty much agree with that.  Though I can see how in most senses and very likely in almost all instances the pole-dancing classes are harmless fun, I think they are a sad reflection on how badly feminism has stalled.



I have to disagree

I was a lesbian feminist separatist in the early 80s and being sexually playful and adventurous was, for most feminists I knew, considered to be a sign of colluding with the patriarchy. Writers like Shelia Jefferies and Andrea Dworkin influenced many feminists to feel bad about enjoying sex. Jefferies even wrote a book called "Anti-Climax" positing the theory that orgasms were oppressive to women as they chained us to desire, often in relation to sexual acts and people (men) who in her ideology are oppressive. Love means never having to say you're soggy. 

I think it's great that women can go to pole dancing classes and enjoy themselves


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Jefferies even wrote a book called "Anti-Climax" positing the theory that orgasms were oppressive to women as they chained us to desire, often in relation to sexual acts and people (men) who in her ideology are oppressive.







Louloubelle said:


> Love means never having to say you're soggy.



 x 5000



Louloubelle said:


> I think it's great that women can go to pole dancing classes and enjoy themselves



I see it as something like those parties where someone gets sold as a slave.  It's all very jokey but the real origins are very unpleasant and I'd prefer it if 'slave' was a taboo word rather than words for female genitalia.

e2a - if the context was all about female sexuality being healthy and celebrated that would be great - that's not the context in this particular instance, though.  If the context was to change over time I'd have no problem with it.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> Linky?
> 
> Or was that a refrerence I missed?


No, no link. Just a off-the-top-of-my-head example of a symbol of patriarchy being redefined by women, but without any deep criticism of the meaning behind the thing.


----------



## Louloubelle (Oct 9, 2008)

Right, I'm off out in a mo,
I goggled for Sheila Jeffries and got this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4939752.stm

just thought I'd share


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

To take a caricature of yourself, to reclaim something used to oppress you or objectify you or label  in the past - or the present -  is a powerful thing. It is powerfully symbolic.

Take pink triangles for example.
Or corsets, or slave bangles.
Or 'dyke' or 'queer' as words.

Take the stripper's pole. Now the women swinging on it in private classes are doing so joyfully, sweating, wearing what they want, doing what they want, choosing to dance for themselves and each other.


To dance with other women for your own pleasure and fitness and delight is a joy. To dance in your own space, as you choose, to lift yourself up without a man to lift you in a dance, to swing and kick is a powerful feeling. There is no male gaze. There is only your own gaze, and the gaze of other women. It is a rush. It is for us, by us. It is not for men.

Throughout history, men have created fantasies about women. And women have played with them, and subverted them and created their own.

Women's desire is a complicated thing. Women's fantasies are not politically correct. It is not that unusual to play with the idea of being a whore, a witch,  a bitch,  a dominatrix, a submissive, a slave, a princess, an exhibitionist in fantasy. Whether they share these fantasies with men is up to them.

This has no relation to the real life of any of these figures of course, being a real whore is not the same thing as feeling the urge to pretend to be one in your head or in the bedroom. Yet their symbology has a potent erotic pull.

Dancing in a pole class, there are probably women who are drawn to the fantasy of themselves as a pole dancer, or Dita Von Teese, or whatever and enjoy an exercise class that has that extra little edge for their psyche. 

And there are women who just like the physical sensation of spinning round, it's like swinging on a climbing frame.

And there are women who find it a huge giggle - it's hard to be elegant, you often feel like a clumsy idiot, it's very hard work but very satisfying when you find you can pull off a trick.

There's plentiful evidence of the hard life - and sadly, sometimes abuses of humans and animals in circuses - but that doesn't stop people wanting to learn circus tricks at circus school.

There's plenty of evidence of people being tortured and caned and chained in the past and the present - but that doesn't stop people wanting to go to S&M dungeons.

Pole dancing for fun is a choice.
That is the key word - a choice. 
Just as choosing to be whipped as a pleasure, or to shave off all your hair, or to grow it long, or to wear a tight corset, or to learn to swing on a trapeeze is a choice.

An expression of the self. 

Why should someone try to say 'shame/perpetuator of stereotypes to the woman for dancing with her friends on poles, or playing on the trapeeze, or playing in a dungeon? Because men did and do bad things or objectifying things or disrespectful things, to prisoners or circus animals and performers or strippers, so anyone who chooses to be cuffed or to play on a trapeeze or to swing on a pole is colluding in this  and glorifying it?

Crap.  Men can be sexist in the lap dancing joint, but don't have the arrogance to assume when we play with what used to be your toys for our own fun, that we are perpetuating your world view. we are not you.

We are doing it for our own reasons.
We choose to do it and it's nothing to do with you. We want our poles for our own fun. And our high heels and our bouncing breasts and our frilly knickers and our soft thighs - they're ours, not yours. We'll do what we choose. We'll subvert your fantasies and make them ours if we want. We get to choose what we wear, how we dance, who we let watch us.

This is not perpetuating some man's fantasy.
This is us swinging on a fucking pole, get over it.
You're not invited.
Nobody is making us do it; we're doing it because we want to and if you don't get why, who cares, we have each got our own reasons and they're ours alone.
If we want to wear heels and dance on poles, we will. And if we want to pay for the studio with money we earned doing jobs we chose, we will. It's our life, our choices, made by us. Not by men.

That's power, that's freedom. 

And there's also the freedom to choose not to do it; I celebrate that too.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Crispy said:


> No, no link. Just a off-the-top-of-my-head example of a symbol of patriarchy being redefined by women, but without any deep criticism of the meaning behind the thing.



I see.

In both cases though, I think this is largely a case of symbols of patriarchy being appropriated by capital rather than redefined by women.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I have to disagree
> 
> I was a lesbian feminist separatist in the early 80s and being sexually playful and adventurous was, for most feminists I knew, considered to be a sign of colluding with the patriarchy. Writers like Shelia Jefferies and Andrea Dworkin influenced many feminists to feel bad about enjoying sex. Jefferies even wrote a book called "Anti-Climax" positing the theory that orgasms were oppressive to women as they chained us to desire, often in relation to sexual acts and people (men) who in her ideology are oppressive. Love means never having to say you're soggy.
> 
> I think it's great that women can go to pole dancing classes and enjoy themselves



Fair enough, I was only a kid during those times and from what I've heard, it sounds a horrible time - feminist anger turning inwards.  On the other hand, being that dismissive and judging of displays of sexuality is a different kettle of fish to saying "great, women should be able to express their sexuality in whatever way they want - however, is there also a parallel process going on which is worthy of exploration?" Which fwiw, is my stance. 

I don't agree with everything Areal Levy says in her book Female Chauvinist Pigs, but I do agree with the premise. Women should be able to express and get in touch with their sexuality, and to do so is liberating. If society restricts this then it is tragic. However, don't some of the common forms of female sexual expression today strongly resemble what men/patriarchy dictated women should do previously? And if this is the case, why is that and what does it mean? And is it negative?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Post 595 is a good one, which I've been pondering over.

I've also had a look at the link about 'perpetuating the power of pornography'.

This is why I kind of partly agree with both arguments here (though my argument may not _exactly_ mirror Kizmet's, more the post 576 argument).

I think to different women, in different situations, both the positives of post 595, and the more destructive elements described by radical feminists, are likely to be happening with these pole-dancing lessons.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> To take a caricature of yourself, to reclaim something used to oppress you or objectify you or label  in the past - or the present -  is a powerful thing. It is powerfully symbolic.



As agentsparrow says.. that's all very nice and stuff.. but there are other influences going on at the same time that you should really take account of.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

See, I don't think subverting stereotypes is colluding in them.

I think it helps to smash them.

Which is liberating.
Like reclimaing the word dyke and queer and nigger etc.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> As agentsparrow says.. that's all very nice and stuff.. but there are other influences going on at the same time that you should really take account of.



I have.

Do you think I do not know what it is like to be objectified as a woman? I'm not coming at this unthinkingly from some middle class fantasy land here.

I have thought about it very deeply - I was able to write post 576 in 2 minutes, I know all the argument against and I am in thisd place because I have thought about them and chosen to walk through them into ther next stage - knowingly subverting them.

As for all the people speculating why women are in the class and what's going through their minds - i know, because I ask them at the beginning of every course why they are doing it.  It's something I'm really interested in, because i am interested in the whole issue of exploitation and feminism and psychology and stereoyping and playing with subversion and whether you can do it without becoming the thing you are trying to subvert.

I'm pretty happy with where I am on this, morally, intellectually and every other way.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Questions for BK:

Do you think the majority of pole dancing classes are to do with knowingly subverting gender stereotypes?

Do you think there has been a normalisation of elements of the sex industry in recent years?


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> See, I don't think subverting stereotypes is colluding in them.
> 
> I think it helps to smash them.
> 
> Which is liberating.



And I don't think that in reality you actually end up subverting anything. Or smashing anything.



> Like reclimaing the word dyke and queer and nigger etc.



Yes. Just like with these words. I see how effectively they've been reclaimed and by whom.


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> See, I don't think subverting stereotypes is colluding in them.
> 
> I think it helps to smash them.
> 
> ...



I'm not convinced that what you are describing is subverting.  Appropriating may be a closer description.  Your doing your thing with your female mates at the dance studio or wherever, but in the meantime the clubs continue to have female pole dancers for the entertainment of the male punters either unaware of what you are doing, or see it as you wishing to acquire some of their 'glamour' and 'exoticism'.

e2a: looks like a few have come with the same question.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

It's also important to note that no matter how you try, you can't go through life without getting sucked into gender roles, to whatever extent. The resultant double think* will lead to things that can appear contradictory to outsiders, and to the person as well. I know I catch myself doing things that on one level I want to reject, whilst on the other level I recognise that I've been a recipient of socialisation as much as everyone else. And the idea of reclaiming is also a very powerful third aspect to experience. Although I have "reclaimed" certain things in the past, and then rejected that idea a few years later because, tbh, I thought I was full of shit!  

Tbh, I don't see anything wrong with the stance of saying "yes, there is a complicated debate attached to this, but due to my personal beliefs I think it's still a liberating thing to do - the positives outweight any possible negatives". Tbh, on some level that's how I feel when I doll myself up.

*NB: I don't necessarily see double think, or being able to hold two contradictory ideas at once, as such a dangerous thing as 1984 does - at least not in every circumstance. I think it can be a reaction to trying to make sense of a complicated situation where there is unlikely to be one truth to it.

Edit: bloody hell, that's waffletastic!


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

golightly said:


> I'm not convinced that what you are describing is subverting.  Appropriating may be a closer description.  Your doing your thing with your female mates at the dance studio or wherever, but in the meantime the clubs continue to have female pole dancers for the entertainment of the male punters either unaware of what you are doing, or see it as you wishing to acquire some of their 'glamour' and 'exoticism'.



Plus it reinforces the notion in young women that it is glamorous and exotic.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> Questions for BK:
> 
> Do you think the majority of pole dancing classes are to do with knowingly subverting gender stereotypes?
> 
> Do you think there has been a normalisation of elements of the sex industry in recent years?



1. I don't know. I think most people just do it because they think it sounds like a laugh. And tones you up. and is more interesting than step/spin/whatever. Which it is.

After all, unless you go and buy a pole, you're not actually going to be able to use the moves or show them off anywhere other than the gym/studio.
Sometimes you get a pole at a night club which you can fight to get on. If you are at a nightclub you're likely to be dressed up and wearing sexy stuff anyway. So chucking in a few spins on the pole is not that different to jumping on the stage and doing show off dancing.

Effectively that means people learning pole stuff are doing it for themselves and the other people in the class. Ergo, it's exercise, it's bonding, it's something blokes will never see.

2. Yes, the main influence being porn.
Shaved or waxed pudendas, money-shots, two-ups, anal sex are all getting normalised, as are breast jobs.

Teenagers get little info about sex/emotions/relationships and are bombarded with porn. This worries me because they are getting extreme situations/looks presented as wholly normal. It is not normal, aged 15, to have a fully waxed vagina but the beautician was telling me a girl came in and wanted it. 

I'm also not a fan of little girls dressing like little teenagers or pop stars. But most parents aren't either.

A bunch of 20 and 30 and 40 year olds in a gym larking about with poles is way down on the kiddiefearometer.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Ok.

So do you think there is any connection at all between these elements of normalisation?

I'm not saying I disagree with you about the other stuff being more harmful, I'm just trying to get a handle on whether you think it is

a) An element of 'normalisation' that is harmless in most instances and empowering in most others.

b) Nothing to do with this normalisation of the sex industry but something coming from somewhere else.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> A bunch of 20 and 30 and 40 year olds in a gym larking about with poles is way down on the kiddiefearometer.



But at least now you accept that it's on there, though. That was the hardest part.. now we can discuss just how low down on the kiddefearometer it is. Maybe it's not as far down as you think.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Tbh, I don't see anything wrong with the stance of saying "yes, there is a complicated debate attached to this, but due to my personal beliefs I think it's still a liberating thing to do - the positives outweight any possible negatives". Tbh, on some level that's how I feel when I doll myself up.



Well, neither do I. As long as that person also accepts that it's usually a very personal benefit vs a society benefit.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

As an aside, before this thread I wouldn't have considered a pole dancing class myself. Now I have a vague interest, although certainly not enough to act upon. And this is not to play at being sexy, or to place myself in a liberating all women environment. It's because now I think about it, I have a curiosity to see how long it would take me to stop falling flat on my arse.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

I imagine I'd be on my arse after about a second and a half.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

I remember being in a mixed sex group, all pissed, in a place which had a pole type thing, and the whole group giving it a quick shot, thinking "how hard can it be?" It was like that bit in Only Fools and Horses where Del Boy falls through the bar.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> And I don't think that in reality you actually end up subverting anything. Or smashing anything.
> 
> Yes. Just like with these words. I see how effectively they've been reclaimed and by whom.



Yes, that is your opinion. I have a different one based on my experiences and beliefs after teaching it over 3 years.




golightly said:


> I'm not convinced that what you are describing is subverting.  Appropriating may be a closer description.  Your doing your thing with your female mates at the dance studio or wherever, but in the meantime the clubs continue to have female pole dancers for the entertainment of the male punters either unaware of what you are doing, or see it as you wishing to acquire some of their 'glamour' and 'exoticism'.
> 
> e2a: looks like a few have come with the same question.



I already covered that. Yes, the lap clubs continue. As do circuses where animals and people are badly treated, yet the curcus skills classes carry on running. The abuse in Guanatamo bay continues yet so people go to dungeons and play with torture and pain. 

The clubs will do their thing as long as men come to them and pay money.
They don't care if women go to pole classes or not, anymore than boxers care if people go to boxercise classes.

The arguments remind me of the hijab arguments. People saying, oh it is oppressive and Muslim women saying, no, we choose to wear it.




Agent Sparrow said:


> It's also important to note that no matter how you try, you can't go through life without getting sucked into gender roles, to whatever extent. The resultant double think* will lead to things that can appear contradictory to outsiders, and to the person as well. I know I catch myself doing things that on one level I want to reject, whilst on the other level I recognise that I've been a recipient of socialisation as much as everyone else. And the idea of reclaiming is also a very powerful third aspect to experience. Although I have "reclaimed" certain things in the past, and then rejected that idea a few years later because, tbh, I thought I was full of shit!
> 
> Tbh, I don't see anything wrong with the stance of saying "yes, there is a complicated debate attached to this, but due to my personal beliefs I think it's still a liberating thing to do - the positives outweight any possible negatives". Tbh, on some level that's how I feel when I doll myself up.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I would compare it to the dolling up thing. In the end, you make choices and you do what you think is on balance, more positive than negative.



Kizmet said:


> Plus it reinforces the notion in young women that it is glamorous and exotic.



Young women are quite capable of making up their own minds about what is glam and exotic. 

A woman of 18 is old enough to vote, to marry, to run her own business, to fight in the army, to be responsible for a little baby, to study at Uni and to make up her own mind about pole classes, page 3, boob jobs, thongs, stripping, and her life choices.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> But at least now you accept that it's on there, though. That was the hardest part.. now we can discuss just how low down on the kiddefearometer it is. Maybe it's not as far down as you think.



Your fears.

 I have zero fears about it. Kiddiefearometer is me taking the piss, it sounds like something in the Daily Mail.

I think you should get over your shame at yourself in Browns 15 years ago and stop worrying. 

Spend time with your daughter instead of arguing about pole dancing on the internet, that's what I'd say to myself if I was in your situation.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Well, neither do I. As long as that person also accepts that it's usually a very personal benefit vs a society benefit.




Hells bells, most people's exercise choices are usually for personal, not society's benefit.

As are their work choices, their dress choices and most of their other choices.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> Ok.
> 
> So do you think there is any connection at all between these elements of normalisation?
> 
> ...




I think the issue is not the normalisation of the sex industry, but the industrialisation of sex. Sex commoditised on a massive industrial scale.

Sex as a product.

People want sex more than they want a new car or a new flavour of crisp. It's one of the easiest sells because there is so much variety, so much desire, unlimited audience for anything.

It's hypercapitalism, is what it is.

Branding. Pushing memes. Packaging it up.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I think the issue is not the normalisation of the sex industry, but the industrialisation of sex. Sex commoditised on a massive industrial scale.
> 
> Sex as a product.
> 
> ...



Do you not see the normalisation of the sex industry as _part of_ the industrialisation of sex?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

8ball said:


> Do you not see the normalisation of the sex industry as _part of_ the industrialisation of sex?



Yes - that's what I mean. People worrying about the normalisation of the sex industry, are missing the point, it's the industrialisation  and frentetic flogging of absolutout ely everything.

Water. Food. Sex. All come packaged and hyped and labelled and branded and fucked about with.

To the point where people won't drink tap water, use readymeal mash rather than boil a bloody potato, think a hairy muff is disgusting.

It's mad.

Pole dancing classes, sheesh, it's not even on the register.


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I already covered that. Yes, the lap clubs continue. As do circuses where animals and people are badly treated, yet the curcus skills classes carry on running. The abuse in Guanatamo bay continues yet so people go to dungeons and play with torture and pain.



No you haven't.  My point is what you are doing is not subversive.  You are merely appropriating an activity not subverting its meaning.  I read your post where you talked about freedom to choose.  I agree it's great to be able to choose what you want to do for your own reasons.  I agree that you can slide up and down a pole with your mates if that is what you want, but don't pretend that it's a blow against the patriarchal military industrial complex. It isn't.  I never read magazines like Cosmopolitan but I can imagine there would have been articles about how pole dancing is good exercise, great fun and not sleezy at all, but in some people's minds they will not see the clear distinction between what goes on in a dance studio and a 'gentlemen's club'.  It's not a straightfoward issue of women's freedom if there are people out there who see that pole dancing in dance studios makes the stuff that goes in 'gentlemen's' clubs more legitimate.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 9, 2008)

golightly said:


> It's not a straightfoward issue of women's freedom if there are people out there who see that pole dancing in dance studios makes the stuff that goes in 'gentlemen's' clubs more legitimate.



Agreed, there'll be blokes out there who simply can't/won't separate the two things, and use one to justify the other.

As before, how you change this is beyond me...


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Your fears.
> 
> I have zero fears about it.



That's because you haven't really thought about it. As is becoming more and more apparent.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Hells bells, most people's exercise choices are usually for personal, not society's benefit.
> 
> As are their work choices, their dress choices and most of their other choices.



Time after time I can see the point whooshing over your head.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Young women are quite capable of making up their own minds about what is glam and exotic.



Of course they are. And what influences do they use to make up their minds?

The media and older role-models, of course. Or would you now like to tell me that the media is having no influence on the eating habits of young women? Or is that completely different in your world?


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Agreed, there'll be blokes out there who simply can't/won't separate the two things, and use one to justify the other.
> 
> As before, how you change this is beyond me...



Dunno.  In my view there's a significant number of people that find the objectification of women quite arousing.  In this case sexual arousal comes as much from getting women to demean themselves as from the act itself if you get my drift.


----------



## Ms T (Oct 9, 2008)

I saw part of the documentary and to be honest I thought that it was full of crap.  It was pretending to be disapproving whilst constantly showing the same titillating images.  I also thought that I'd rather girls made money in lap-dancing clubs than as street prostitutes.  Are any of the dancers in the clubs featured really under any illusions that they're taking part in the prostitution industry?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Do you really think that gent studios are 'legitimised' by women in gyms on poles? Do you think they care about that legitimisation? They are aimed at men. Not exercising women.

They are opening all over the UK, on public entertainment licences like cafes.
There are tv channels dedicated to porn on demand, porn on the internet, bare-breasted teenagers have been on page 3 for 20 years, longer I think. Naked women are dished up to men in all media all the time to sell all sorts of things. 

In its small way, the class is subverting. Where the only commercially acceptable beautiful women are airbrushed and diet-thin with fake tits and bleached teeth, and judged according to some demented male standard of utter unreality, for normal women to swing on a pole and not feel too fat, too old, but to feel but to feel sexy as themselves is subverting something.

Appropriating the pole to subvert what it stands for is the point.
I can't take on the military industrial complex. I can tell women that they look beautiful and sexy and help them feel it, to see themselves through their own eyes not hyper-critically as if they were internalising the male gaze. I consider that to be good. I see it doing good things for people. It creates happiness.

There will be people who don't  get this: they will judge anyway. They will say women pole dancing in a gym somehow equates to men paying a woman to take off her clothes and dance for £20. They might even  say something stupid like 'see? women love pole dancingthey do it at the gym. So this girl must love showing me her bottom and bending over.'


Well, the world is full of judgers and sneerers. They will seek to justify their position whatever I do or say. I am not going to let their misplaced and misinterpreative disapproval stop me from doing something I believe in and know to be good, not bad.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> That's because you haven't really thought about it. As is becoming more and more apparent.





Kizmet said:


> Time after time I can see the point whooshing over your head.





Kizmet said:


> Of course they are. And what influences do they use to make up their minds?
> 
> The media and older role-models, of course. Or would you now like to tell me that the media is having no influence on the eating habits of young women? Or is that completely different in your world?



You know what?

 I've really tried hard with you. I've explained. I've explained again. 

I've done some long and thoughtful posts. I've even done a summary of the 'anti' argument for you, to show I understood and had thought about your position before reaching my own. (You wondered if you'd written it yourself.)


And I thought, well, he'll probably just be dismissive and sneering but at least I tried.

I have thought about it. I understand your arguments. I don't accept them. I think the least you could do is accept that I don't agree with you and respect it, rather than rudely insist you are right and I don't understand and don't think. Someetimes people have a think about things and they don;t agree with you. Deal with it. 

You seem to think of women as basically quite stupid, influenced by 'the media and older role models'. That is frankly, patronising.

Are you seriously suggesting your only influences as a young man were 'media and older men'?

that you had no discernment, no friends, no family, read no books, had no teachers, no politics, no thought in your head of your own?

I presume not, so why do you refer to women as 'stupid' and 'muppets' and 'bored housewives' in such a contemptous way? Why do you think you can deign to tell me why women do pole classes, ffs? Why are you being such an arse?

This is boring and pointless, talking to you. I'm going to watch C4 news and do my emails.


----------



## golightly (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't think they care about you going to pole dancing classes.  If they thought about it all I reckon they'd probably just think, "That's nice".  Also, I don't think what you are doing is supporting the legitimacy of the sex industry or anything like that.  I just think that not everyone will understand it from your perspective because, as I said, their view of it will be affected by different perspectives and agendas.  You're right that you only deal with the women who come to the group and helping other women to feel valued and attractive in that group is a good thing.  My point is that it's not straightforward and will not always be perceived in the way that you view.  Such is life I guess.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

I think 10 more paragraphs should do it bk.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I think 10 more paragraphs should do it bk.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Kismet: Women should behave as I think they ought to. Anything else is perpetuating sexism.


KTHXBYE


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 9, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> and that's big lie.. that, for a woman to be 'sexy', she has to slide up and down a pole.



I wouldn't say its necessary, but it certainly doesn't hurt.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 9, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Convincing the internet that you are right is an unwinnable battle and in the long run will only bring you pain.



Rubbish, I'll have none of that defeatist talk around here.  I've been fighting the internet for fifteen years now, and victory is in sight!


----------



## Crispy (Oct 9, 2008)

In your case phil, I'm afraid it'll take more than 10 paragraphs. that's good news for nobody


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Rubbish, I'll have none of that defeatist talk around here.  I've been fighting the internet for fifteen years now, and victory is in sight!



(((phil's delusional world)))


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 9, 2008)

There is no way I would date a girl who did pole dancing for exercise.  I mean, what does that choice of exercise say about a woman??  Very strange indeed.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Another incentive to pole dance, ladies!


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Rubbish, I'll have none of that defeatist talk around here.  I've been fighting the internet for fifteen years now, and victory is in sight!





Crispy said:


> In your case phil, I'm afraid it'll take more than 10 paragraphs. that's good news for nobody





Agent Sparrow said:


> (((phil's delusional world)))


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Another incentive to pole dance, ladies!



It's for middle class twin-setters who want to experience a bit of rough but without having to shag a bloke from a council estate.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Well, the world is full of judgers and sneerers.


I'm sure it can find room for you BK!


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> It's for middle class twin-setters who want to experience a bit of rough but without having to shag a bloke from a council estate.



Those smooth, yet somehow rough, chafing poles...that smell of sweat...those women dancing about like ruffians...the absence of men....and er, sex....it's, erm very rough indeed.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Those smooth, yet somehow rough, chafing poles...that smell of sweat...those women dancing about like ruffians...the absence of men....and er, sex....it's, erm very rough indeed.



You do it for sport, but some women with fewer choices than a middle class urbanite have no choice but to do that kind of work for a living.  People like you are effectively laughing at and mocking these women whilst getting your exercise.  It's a goddam disgrace and you should be ashamed.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I'm sure it can find room for you BK!



It's a dangerous rough old world out there Jazzz. Controlled by shadowy sinister forces and all manner of ruffians. Which you can find out about on various daring-to-expose-the-truth websites, which they are entirely powerless against, even though they control the media and don't hesitate to bump off thousands of people as a result of various fiendishly complex complicated plots that only bloggers can be bothered to write about.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> You do it for sport, but some women with fewer choices than a middle class urbanite have no choice but to do that kind of work for a living.  People like you are effectively laughing at and mocking these women whilst getting your exercise.  It's a goddam disgrace and you should be ashamed.




Actually, I teach anyone. Including women who do 'that kind of work'. And I've already explained that some of my friends do it for a living.

Mocking? Laughing at? No.

Are people who go to circus classes mocking people who work in circuses?
Are people who go to boxercise classes mocking people who are pro boxers?
Are people who play 5 a side mocking pro footballers?
No, so why have a go at women doing pole classes?

It's just more projection.


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 9, 2008)

I think you're confused. Best stick to the pole eh?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I think you're confused. Best stick to the pole eh?




That's what THEY want you to think.


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 9, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Actually, I teach anyone. Including women who do 'that kind of work'. And I've already explained that some of my friends do it for a living.
> 
> Mocking? Laughing at? No.
> 
> ...



 why folk can't have a rational debate with Badger Kitten


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

What? I mean, ffs?

You are just making these wild assumptions, based on prejudice. Or something.
I hate women. I laugh at women. wtf? 

This thread is mad, the stuff that gets chucked around.

roll eyes right back at you


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 9, 2008)

I think you'll find the people being dismissive and contemptous of women working in lap bars are Kismet ( 'stupid girls') and, erm, yourself. Have a read back of the stuff you've posted.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Oct 9, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> There is no way I would date a girl who did pole dancing for exercise.





Badger Kitten said:


> Another incentive to pole dance, ladies!


----------



## Jonti (Oct 9, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> There is no way I would date a girl who did pole dancing for exercise.  I mean, what does that choice of exercise say about a woman??  Very strange indeed.


Well, maybe that she thinks it's good to keep the pelvic floor in trim.

Tho' I suspect that says nothing to you, hmmm?


----------



## Homeless Mal (Oct 9, 2008)

Goodnight knockers hmm I will leave you to the sounds of your own voices


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 9, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> There is no way I would date a girl who did pole dancing for exercise.  I mean, what does that choice of exercise say about a woman??  Very strange indeed.


don't know, what do you think?


----------



## Jonti (Oct 9, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> Goodnight knockers hmm I will leave you to the sounds of your own voices


So cruel 

Alone and in the dark, with only our own voices for company, abandoned by Homeless Mal. How we will miss you!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The documentary is about whether there should be tougher regulation and the use of 'public entertainment' licences.
> 
> a) is about the licences and the residents
> b) is about the licences
> ...





If you want to talk about the ideas in the documentary, next time, make it clear in posts one two and three, that it's the documentary's ideas you're presenting, not your own opinion.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> And as if it wasn't already perfectly bloody obvious, here's the third post I made, still on the first page.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just can't read all this, sorry.

But if the gist of it is that I called you moralistic and somewhat puritanical wrt this issue, then: you're right!

That is my opinion of the things you said. There you go.


Something else. 

You got pissed off at me at the outset, and put me on ignore. Then, you'd say you'd briefly taken me off ignore, to respond to one thing or another.

Then, the floodgates opened, and you were just responding holus bolus. I guess at that point, I was off ignore.

Then, you proceeded to berate me for one thing or another, swear at me, get defensive, etc.

But: if the things I say bug you so much, arguably you'd gotten it right, when you put me on ignore. Is this new thing, the 'dramatic approach'?

Why not just admit that you love it?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If you want to talk about the ideas in the documentary, next time, make it clear in posts one two and three, that it's the documentary's ideas you're presenting, not your own opinion.


title of thread: C4 [channel 4] lapdancing club investigation: Dispatches *on now *

(kind of as we speak or type)

in the books, films, TV, radio & writing forum.

s'kind of a bit obvious if you ask me.......


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> That's what THEY want you to think.



oh yawn


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The immensely moralising tone which is interestingly enough, not responded to by JC2.
> .



I didn't. I can only do so much. On a robust thread like this, I just was talking to you mostly. I didn't really read what all those other guys said. 

It wasn't a planned strategy to 'get the woman'. Ffs.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> JC2 says I'm being a prig, a moraliser.
> Mal says I'm a misogynist.
> Kismet says I'm a hypocrite exploiting women and perpetuating the sex industry.
> None of them have a go at each other's arguments.



I'll have a go at one of them. I think the misogynist thing is off base. I think you can be hypocritical, but I'm not sure of how Kismet is interpreting you to be hypocritical in this instance, apart from some of the things you said about the sexiness, or not, of pole dancing.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> we've had a bunch of men lining up to go on the offensive in a highly personal, aggressive way that is notable for one main point:
> .



When you say stuff like this, I think, 'what a baby'.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> we've had a bunch of men lining up to go on the offensive in a highly personal, aggressive way that is notable for one main point:
> 
> missing the fucking point completely..



Btw, that's exactly what happened to me on the 911 thread, and on that one, you gleefully took part, right to the max.

I guess your sense of justice and outrage depends on whether or not you're part of the hyena pack administering the bollocking?

So save me your hurt feelings. Btw, you made mention of 'respect', somewhere above. I tend to give back, as much as I receive. Based on what I've said about the 911 thread, I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to which side of the roster you're on.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

shut up JC2 eh, you're sounding like a fool.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I am fucked off. By the personal attacks, the misrepresentations, the aggression, the blatant, wilful missing of the point.
> It's gone on and on for pages and pages.
> It's fucking unnecessary.
> It's shit.
> I felt like pointing out how it was shit and why in some detail.



My bollocking went on for 1000 posts, with not one voice raised in agreement or defence, apart from some nice words from Wookey. Nobody said anything, because the editor was in agreement with what you were doing.

You at least have had a host of defenders. You shouldn't feel so bad.

p.s on wiki, look up "Dishing it out" vs "Taking it"


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

I guess this goes back to the whole 'hypocrisy' thing, doesn't it?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> title of thread: C4 [channel 4] lapdancing club investigation: Dispatches *on now *
> 
> (kind of as we speak or type)
> 
> ...



But if I entitle a thread, XXXXX, and then go on to discusss YYYYY, what is the thread about?


----------



## _float_ (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But if I entitle a thread, XXXXX, and then go on to discusss YYYYY, what is the thread about?


ZZZZZ ?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> shut up JC2 eh, you're sounding like a fool.



Duly noted, and filed in the appropriate place.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

@BK. Actually, I sort of know what you're talking about. The 911 thread had me a hair's breadth from flouncing. But one of the things I've always believed, is you don't let the dickwads win.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> My bollocking went on for 1000 posts, with not one voice raised in agreement or defence, apart from some nice words from Wookey. Nobody said anything, because the editor was in agreement with what you were doing.



Link?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Here's me saying something nice: I admire your tenacity, your stubbornness, also, your facility with the language that lets you change the tone from anger to hurt etc. 

Just because I don't agree with what you say, doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the manner in which you say it. I look forward to these discussions with you: they present a nice challenge.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Link?



Ok, you did too. And a couple of others. But it was pebbles rolling down the mountain as compared to the rockslide.

But notably, not one person agreed with me, that I can recall. Maybe they did and I just got punch drunk.  I suppose it's always possible that I'm the only person in the world that thinks a particular way.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 10, 2008)

> I just can't read all this, sorry.



I took the trouble to respond.
This is a message board where people communicate in words.
If you can't even be bothered to read a post specifically to and about you, after dishing out personal abuse based on a misreading of a thread you also can't or won't read, 

then the sensible thing is to have you on ignore.

A bunch of people chatting about a TV show in a pub. In walks JC2.

''I don't know what you are talking about. I'm going to barge in anyway and call you this and that, heh heh. Then I'm going to insult you. Then I'm going to ignore you when you point out that's not what is being discussed nor what anyone has said. Then I'm going to get pissed you ignore me. Then I'm going to ignore your explanations, and further points in favour of more insults and jibes. Then I'm going to leave. When I come back I see you've left an explanation of why I got the wrong end of the stick. I can't be bothered to look at it.''

How is that not the behaviour of a boor?
Why the fuck do you think I would want to hear your opinions after you act like that?

What is the point? 
Game over.




*on ignore*


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I took the trouble to respond.
> This is a message board where people communicate in words.
> If you can't even be bothered to read a post specifically to and about you, after dishing out personal abuse based on a misreading of a thread you also can't or won't read,
> 
> ...



Oh: round two of 'ignore'.

After 500 posts. What a hypocrite.


Out of one side of her mouth, she talks about enjoying the 'right of reply'. But that's only for her.

Just goes to show I was right on that 'respect' decison I made about you. Convenient to put me on ignore and not have to answer the posts I just made today, especially the one where I compliment you.

At least I know for sure what kind of person you are.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I took the trouble to respond.
> This is a message board where people communicate in words.
> If you can't even be bothered to read a post specifically to and about you, after dishing out personal abuse based on a misreading of a thread you also can't or won't read,



I was actually agreeing with what you said: I agreed that I was in fact calling you a moralistic puritan wrt this issue. Didn't you read _that_ part?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> A bunch of people chatting about a TV show in a pub. In walks JC2.
> *



No, I was one of the first responders on the thread. So it was you and me talking, then you turned your back and put your fingers in your ears and started going 'la la la'. Let's make sure we have the facts straight.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Why the fuck do you think I would want to hear your opinions after you act like that?



My opinions of what you said are not just for you, they're for the board in general.


p.s. You certainly are a master strategist, though. Got to hand you that...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Btw, Kismet and Citizen called you all sorts of names, argued for pages with you,  but it's only me that you've put on ignore. Twice.

I'll take that as a compliment.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

But if you actually mean the ignore this time, I'd better say this:


----------



## Jazzz (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> p.s on wiki, look up "Dishing it out" vs "Taking it"



I have to concur with JC2 here. In my experience Badger Kitten is one of the most aggressive posters on urban75 and with whom I very unlikely to find discussion rewarding in any way. She launches into her crusades as if seeking a pub brawl, easily attracting negative attention with her condescensions and personal jibes which she introduces. It appears not enough for her to win an argument she must completely humiliate any opponent she comes across. She is much like editor in that respect but where she really outdoes our beloved site creator is that she is always the set-upon, harassed poor little kitten! Pull the other one. There's never any qualifications, any idea that she's not sure about anything. And when you find she completely reinvents history or changes position, well there's never any acknowledgement just more attacks.

We saw her amusing trick again of implying that her opponent is obsessed with her - well I had that one too a while back: I have to say it's mighty curious why someone that has had the misfortune of having a real stalker is so keen to bandy around such a suggestion. Strange!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> . In my experience Badger Kitten is one of the most aggressive posters on urban75 and with whom I very unlikely to find discussion rewarding in any way. She launches into her crusades as if seeking a pub brawl, easily attracting negative attention with her condescensions and personal jibes which she introduces. It appears not enough for her to win an argument she must completely humiliate any opponent she comes across. She is much like editor in that respect but where she really outdoes our beloved site creator is that she is always the set-upon, harassed poor little kitten! Pull the other one. There's never any qualifications, any idea that she's not sure about anything. And when you find she completely reinvents history or changes position, well there's never any acknowledgement just more attacks.



Very well put.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 10, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I have to concur with JC2 here. In my experience Badger Kitten is one of the most aggressive posters on urban75 and with whom I very unlikely to find discussion rewarding in any way. She launches into her crusades as if seeking a pub brawl, easily attracting negative attention with her condescensions and personal jibes which she introduces. It appears not enough for her to win an argument she must completely humiliate any opponent she comes across. She is much like editor in that respect but where she really outdoes our beloved site creator is that she is always the set-upon, harassed poor little kitten! Pull the other one. There's never any qualifications, any idea that she's not sure about anything. And when you find she completely reinvents history or changes position, well there's never any acknowledgement just more attacks.
> 
> We saw her amusing trick again of implying that her opponent is obsessed with her - well I had that one too a while back: I have to say it's mighty curious why someone that has had the misfortune of having a real stalker is so keen to bandy around such a suggestion. Strange!




Thanks. That's a massive compliement.
Sun Tzu would get why.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 10, 2008)

Oh,and .

Night.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh,and .
> 
> Night.



Mood music for your beddy bye...


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> You know what?
> 
> I've really tried hard with you. I've explained. I've explained again.


 
No. What you've done is, at first, denied any connection at all. Then once it became clear that most people can see a pretty clear connection you then have told me that you have already thought it all through and you're fine with it.

Despite a number of questions from a number of people you actually haven't answered most of them except to say you don't think it matters over and over again.



> I've done some long and thoughtful posts. I've even done a summary of the 'anti' argument for you, to show I understood and had thought about your position before reaching my own. (You wondered if
> you'd written it yourself.)


 
Most of those posts were self-pitying and self-justifying bollocks, I'm afraid. And your summary was wrong. I told you that but you seem not to have noticed.



> And I thought, well, he'll probably just be dismissive and sneering but at least I tried.


 
And I was neither. Even though you appear to think you know everything.

I've just watched you avoid questions over and over.



> I have thought about it. I understand your arguments. I don't accept them. I think the least you could do is accept that I don't agree with you and respect it, rather than rudely insist you are right and I don't understand and don't think. Someetimes people have a think about things and they don;t agree with you. Deal with it.


 
You don't accept them because it's not *convenient* for you to do so. That's why I'm arguing with you. 

If I felt that you had honestly thought about most of this and had just come to a different conclusion then a) it would be obvious from your answers b) we could agree to disagree.

But I think it's clear you haven't and instead have just tried to insinuate bad things about me to avoid doing so.



> You seem to think of women as basically quite stupid, influenced by 'the media and older role models'. That is frankly, patronising.
> 
> Are you seriously suggesting your only influences as a young man were 'media and older men'?
> 
> ...


 
See.. you're doing it again.... twisting what I've said to make it seem as if I'm somehow denigrating ALL women again.

Anyone can tell you that there is a problem with young women and the influences they are receiving from the media.. and it's a growing problem with men. Anorexia is just one example.

But here you are trying to claim that it doesn't happen and that somehow I'm a misogynist for even mentioning it.

It's shitty behaviour, Badger Kitten, and it's the reason why a number of posters who have watched you do it time and time again have an issue with you.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 10, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> We saw her amusing trick again of implying that her opponent is obsessed with her - well I had that one too a while back: I have to say it's mighty curious why someone that has had the misfortune of having a real stalker is so keen to bandy around such a suggestion. Strange!



Not really, she obviously has experience of being harassed by deluded fruitcakes on the internet. Who can blame her for jumping to conclusions?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 10, 2008)

Walk away BK, there's times when threads like these just become a waste of time, and for you I think that was about on page 2 

Looks like it's going to be nice out again today 

*goes to look for a likely looking pole in the garden*


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

two sheds said:


> Walk away BK, there's times when threads like these just become a waste of time, and for you I think that was about on page 2


 
Whereas for most of the rest of us it was about page 1 post 1.

Actually that's not entirely fair.. in between all the fighting it's been interesting reading agentsparrow's perceptions on the subject.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 10, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Whereas for most of the rest of us it was about page 1 post 1.
> 
> Actually that's not entirely fair.. in between all the fighting it's been interesting reading agentsparrow's perceptions on the subject.



And i hadn't realised you could have pole dancing that wasn't linked to the sexual control/gratification element. So yes, it's not all been wasted.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

I heard that Jeremy Kyle's slot is soon up for grabs if anyone is interested.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

two sheds said:


> And i hadn't realised you could have pole dancing that wasn't linked to the sexual control/gratification element.


 
I think, if you manage to find a pole, you could show us exactly what that looks like.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Why not just admit that you love it?





Badger Kitten said:


> *on ignore*



Jesus wept, get it over with and get married to each other ffs.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> I heard that Jeremy Kyle's _slot_ is soon up for grabs if anyone is interested.


 
Now _there's_ a valid use of a pole.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> I think, if you manage to find a pole, you could show us exactly what that looks like.



Meow.


----------



## boskysquelch (Oct 10, 2008)




----------



## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Meow.


 
Shame he probably won't get it for _aaaages_.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 10, 2008)

boskysquelch said:


>




Nice, although the pole reference eludes me  

You didn't half inch my camera usb lead when you were here did you?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 10, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> I think, if you manage to find a pole, you could show us exactly what that looks like.



Yes, I realised after i posted that it wasn't exactly the mental image people would want first thing of a friday morning. A sort of fitting end to the thread though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

two sheds said:


> Yes, I realised after i posted that it wasn't exactly the mental image people would want first thing of a friday morning. A sort of fitting end to the thread though.



It hasn't got past 30 pages of grief yet.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> It hasn't got past 30 pages of grief yet.


 
The funny thing is.. all she really had to say was 'Yeah I know it's a bit hypocritical.. but I don't really care because I enjoy it loads.'

And that would have been honest enough to shut me up.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> The funny thing is.. all she really had to say was 'Yeah I know it's a bit hypocritical.. but I don't really care because I enjoy it loads.'
> 
> And that would have been honest enough to shut me up.



But where's the fun in that?


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> But where's the fun in that?


 
This was a lot of things... but 'fun' wasn't one of them.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 10, 2008)

This is what it feels like debating with Kismet

''Women! Behave as I think you ought to! Otherwise you are perpetuating sexism! Which is WRONG!
If you disagree with me, you're WRONG. 
WRONG because you have not thought about it enough to come to the right conclusion yet. 
Or wrong because you are a silly, stupid woman, influenced by a sexist media.
What do you mean, you don't agree and have views of your own?
They are the WRONG views.
My views are RIGHT and anyone who disagrees is WRONG.
The only reason you won't accept I am RIGHT is because it's not convenient for you to do so. Hypocrite!
I don't need to explain why I am RIGHT. I just am.
Summarise my position? Why should I have to? Everyone should just be able to sense its RIGHTNESS.
Think of the children!''

it's fairly boring and pointless actually, so I'm not going to bother anymore.
It's like talking to Victorian Dad.








Reading back, it's quite funny today. I can imagine him with his thumbs under his lapels, shaking his head sadly. 'Oh, foolish young women! How you have been led astray! By those flibbertigibbet magazines and those shameless older women who should know better...Let me enlighten you! I am a man of the world, don't you know, in and out of lap dancing places, man and boy....come back here, what do you mean, you disagree and make your own choices? harrumph! And you're not going out the door dressed like that, dash it!...'....<SLAM>

He actually uses phrases like 

'taken to task'
'bored housewives'

'stupid young girls' ( wish you'd said 'gels' or 'hussies' , it would have been funnier
'silly people' (oh noes,  not silly people!)
'all I'm trying to do is to get you to see that you are wrong, no matter what you think'
'as a responsible older woman I don't think you should be promoting...'
'older women who should know better'
'your opinion is rubbish. And not worth a fig'

Battling for the rights of women by labelling every woman who chooses to do something he disapproves of as stupid, misguided or hypocritical. And he can't see the irony in his position as a warrior against sexual stereotyping.



Based on past experience, the one thing the pompous cannot stand is being found unintentionally amusing. This will amuse me even more as I head outside to replace all the bulbs that the bastard squirrel has dug up and eaten.

Johnny Canuck has issues with crusading moralists and self-righteous prigs apparently so perhaps he and Kismet can have a ding-dong-off in my abscence.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

Nothing, if not rankled.


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## golightly (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it's fairly boring and pointless actually, so I'm not going to bother anymore.



How many times have you said that in this thread?  One would be forgiven for thinking that you weren't genuine.

Oh, and attempting to put words in other people's mouths is an appalling debating technique and is unlikely to reflect well on you.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

The show aint over until golightly sings...


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## boskysquelch (Oct 10, 2008)

18 pages without a mention of the Local Government Association?


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## Crispy (Oct 10, 2008)

golightly said:


> How many times have you said that in this thread?  One would be forgiven for thinking that you weren't genuine.
> 
> Oh, and attempting to put words in other people's mouths is an appalling debating technique and is unlikely to reflect well on you.


Pretty much agreed. It's not so much the putting words in mouths thing, but stating as fact what you_suspect_ to be the motivations of others. This sort of long-distance psychoanalysis never goes down well. "Don't tell me how I think!" is the instant reaction,regardless of how accurate the analysis might be.


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 10, 2008)

*pops back in whilst kettle boils*

Hmmm, well he has told me how and what I think/don't think all the way through the thread. So I have posted _explaining how I experience him_ when he goes on like that. It is my feedback on his debating style, and I have noticed posters have been remarkably forthcoming about mine.


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## golightly (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> The show aint over until golightly sings...



Leave it out.  I'm using this to distract me from what I should be doing.


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## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *pops back in whilst kettle boils*
> 
> Hmmm, well he has told me how and what I think/don't think all the way through the thread. So I have posted _explaining how I experience him_ when he goes on like that. It is my feedback on his debating style, and I have noticed posters have been remarkably forthcoming about mine.


 
The difference being, of course, that I haven't twisted a single thing you've said... whereas you're known for doing it.

I do quite like the victoriana thing you have for me though... I reckon deep down you quite fancy me. 

(That was a joke, by the way, in case you go off on one. )


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## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

And one more thing.. it's Ki Z met. With a Z not an S.

I do wish you'd get it right.. because I've been resisting the urge to call you Burger King/Burger Kitten all through this argument...


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## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Alright.. two more things:

I don't actually have any problem with lap-dancing, poledancing, stripping, anything... what I have a problem with is _money_ changing hands. Because I think that's where exploitation comes in. And in an enviroment where there is already exploitation you have to think carefully about what you can subvert and what you can't.

If you had any nous about you when you were going on about other usernames you'd have found this: Notice the date....

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3610492&postcount=67



> I think Porn's great. But I don't think you should pay for it.
> 
> In any format, ever.
> 
> ...


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## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

Can I have the last word please?


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Can I have the last word please?



 Have you really got the time, inclination or energy to go ensure you get it?


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## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Can I have the last word please?


No.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Have you really got the time, inclination or energy to go ensure you get it?



It's all about timing too. I'll breath my last and then no doubt kizmet will have wound BK up enough for another epic.


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## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> It's all about timing too. I'll breath my last and then no doubt kizmet will have wound BK up enough for another epic.


 
So glad you said epic and not 'whopper'...

.. alright enough BK puns.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 10, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> It's all about timing too. I'll breath my last and then no doubt kizmet will have wound BK up enough for another epic.



I believe others wanting it more than you is the point.


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## Kizmet (Oct 10, 2008)

Will you two stop yabbering, please.. all you're doing is putting more distance between the end of the thread and my last post about changing the world!


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## Citizen66 (Oct 10, 2008)

I actually prefer wednesdays to fridays...


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 10, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Will you two stop yabbering, please.. all you're doing is putting more distance between the end of the thread and my last post about changing the world!







Okay.


*whimpers and bows in submission*


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## Grandma Death (Oct 10, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> I don't know, it doesn't sound like the worst job in the world.  Again, maybe its just me.



But you would say that-you're obsessed with lesbians phil.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

has it really taken you 4 days to come up with that riposté? :

((((bandwidth)))))


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Johnny Canuck has issues with crusading moralists and self-righteous prigs apparently so perhaps he and Kismet can have a ding-dong-off in my abscence.



Look: if it was the 'prig' thing that got you incensed, I apologize for that. 

I'll amend it to 'crusading moralist and self-righteous _person'_.

Okay. So: friends?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> And one more thing.. it's Ki Z met. With a Z not an S.
> 
> I do wish you'd get it right.. because I've been resisting the urge to call you Burger King/Burger Kitten all through this argument...



Just never Budger Kitten, if you please.

And get off it: _I'm _the apple of her eye.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

She won't budge in an argument, you know.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

Stop typing one-handed eh JC2?


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## phildwyer (Oct 10, 2008)

Grandma Death said:


> But you would say that-you're obsessed with lesbians phil.



Now look what you've done Canuck--I'd just got her to sleep with a treble G'n'T and you have to rattle her cage.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Stop typing one-handed eh JC2?



What do you see here that I don't, that's supposed to get me excited?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What do you see here that I don't, that's supposed to get me excited?


i don't see anything JC2, am not psychic. why are you getting excited?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Now look what you've done Canuck--I'd just got her to sleep with a treble G'n'T and you have to rattle her cage.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 10, 2008)

There was an interesting experiment done in a lapdancing club reported in the New Scientist this week. Ovulating lapdancers get bigger tips.


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## two sheds (Oct 10, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There was an interesting experiment done in a lapdancing club reported in the New Scientist this week. Ovulating lapdancers get bigger tips.



sure it was tips?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There was an interesting experiment done in a lapdancing club reported in the New Scientist this week. Ovulating lapdancers get bigger tips.


i read something about that this week. its a curious phenomena by the sound of it. maybe not all that surprising though?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There was an interesting experiment done in a lapdancing club reported in the New Scientist this week. Ovulating lapdancers get bigger tips.



I heard that on the radio.

It confirms a long held belief amongst the strippers themselves. 

It's kind of scary if you think about it. As in, we think we do everything of our own free will, but then you hear things like this.


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## two sheds (Oct 10, 2008)

Did it say why they thought it happens?


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 10, 2008)

Yeah, and the women who didn't have natural cycles (ie on the pill) didn't get the tip blip.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 10, 2008)

two sheds said:


> Did it say why they thought it happens?


Well, they wanted to see if women who were in the fertile phase were more attractive to men, so they devised an experiment that might show this.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

two sheds said:


> Did it say why they thought it happens?



Pheromones, maybe?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Pheromones, maybe?


Probably. Basically.


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## two sheds (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Pheromones, maybe?



yep suppose so, i wondered whether they'd get close enough but of course i presume they would. 

[/naiveness]


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

two sheds said:


> yep suppose so, i wondered whether they'd get close enough but of course i presume they would.
> 
> [/naiveness]



Assuming that the pheromones don't disperse over a wider area.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 10, 2008)

In the end, we're slaves to biology. Sort of takes a burden off, innit?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 10, 2008)

real men think with their dick eh JC2? 

[www.notbotheredwithsomelongdrawnoutrowaboutnowtimportant.com]


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## 8ball (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> In the end, we're slaves to biology.



Tried that line on the magistrate.

£500 fine and a month community service . . .


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 11, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> real men think with their dick eh JC2?
> ]



This is the 'moron-ized' version of what I said.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 11, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> *whimpers and bows in submission*



Hahaha and that's what he looks like as well. Cleverly done.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 11, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> There was an interesting experiment done in a lapdancing club reported in the New Scientist this week. Ovulating lapdancers get bigger tips.



Fertility or the appearance of being and attraction are regularly linked in surveys.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 11, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Hahaha and that's what he looks like as well. Cleverly done.



I've met him once actually!


Also, I remember the pic that was referred to earlier in this thread , of him dressed as a Pharoah.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 11, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> I've met him once actually!
> 
> 
> Also, I remember the pic that was referred to earlier in this thread , of him dressed as a Pharoah.



Yeah, he looks a proper nob in that picture. 

He ought to stick to the boy and ones tbh.


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## snadge (Oct 11, 2008)

Is this thread a recruitment drive for BK's pole dancing classes by any chance?

It seems that way to me......


It's not sleazy at all girls, it's women empowerment....


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## Kizmet (Oct 11, 2008)

Clearly it's also turned into a 'let's laugh at Kizmet for looking like a girl' thread too...


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## Citizen66 (Oct 11, 2008)

Nobody asked you to dress like one...


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## Badger Kitten (Oct 11, 2008)

snadge said:


> Is this thread a recruitment drive for BK's pole dancing classes by any chance?
> 
> It seems that way to me......
> 
> ...



Nope, studio is closed as landlord is having money problems. Think it might be repossesed.


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## Kizmet (Oct 11, 2008)

And to be fair it was me who brought up her lessons in the first place.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 11, 2008)

And look what that caused.


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## snadge (Oct 11, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> And to be fair it was me who brought up her lessons in the first place.




Are they good like?


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## Kizmet (Oct 11, 2008)

I wouldn't know. Last time I tried being upside down for any length of time all the blood rushed to my head and I couldn't see straight for about an hour...


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## Homeless Mal (Oct 11, 2008)

Fuck me (or maybe 'pole dance me' ) I can't believe this thread is _still_ going.


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## Kizmet (Oct 11, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> And look what that caused.



Was a darn sight more interesting than a mundane thread about lapdance regulations in cornwall, or whatever.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 11, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Was a darn sight more interesting than a mundane thread about lapdance regulations in cornwall, or whatever.



Are you sure? 

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=246268

Was quite spectacular. But appears to have caused someone to stop posting after the efforts of the usual suspects.


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## Kizmet (Oct 11, 2008)

I remember that thread... was silly more than anything else.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 11, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Clearly it's also turned into a 'let's laugh at Kizmet for looking like a girl' thread too...



I didn't say you looked like a girl! 

I actually liked that picture.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 11, 2008)

Homeless Mal said:


> Fuck me (or maybe 'pole dance me' ) I can't believe this thread is _still_ going.



Quite!


It's a gorgeous day outside, just back from the gym now off to the park.

Stop sitting in looking for internet fights and get out and enjoy the day!


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## Kizmet (Oct 11, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> I didn't say you looked like a girl!
> 
> I actually liked that picture.



Thanks, hon. 

Though I think I prefer the hat in the picture you chose.


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## Grandma Death (Oct 11, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Now look what you've done Canuck--I'd just got her to sleep with a treble G'n'T and you have to rattle her cage.


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## HarrisonSlade (Oct 12, 2008)

She gonna get it. Oh boy, is that bitch gonna get it. 
She gonna get what comin' to her.

You want women being treat like second class citizens. Well here you are.

Dat beetch even got her hands tied behind her mother fukkin back


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## Louloubelle (Oct 13, 2008)

Lapdancing video from 1910

back in the old days the women had a different strategy for making sure the men kept their hands to themselves

note the policeman and council officials watching in the background


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