# ANTIFA - CHASSEURS DE SKINS (2008)



## IC3D (Mar 28, 2012)

Beautiful documentary about Immigrants and Antifa fighting fash in 1980/90's Paris, surprised there ain't a thread but well worth a gander.


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## elfman (Mar 28, 2012)

Seen this before and it's well worth a watch. Very interesting!


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## audiotech (Mar 28, 2012)

This is the same complete film with English subtitles.

'Striking back against the fascists was an act of public safety.'


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## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2012)

So is the first one, you just have to click cc.


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## audiotech (Mar 28, 2012)

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll remember the next time.


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## manny-p (Mar 28, 2012)

.


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## imposs1904 (Mar 28, 2012)

Watched it a few months back. Very interesting documentary. I presumed it'd already been mentioned on the BTF thread.


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## Divisive Cotton (Mar 29, 2012)

it's funny how they existed at the exactly the same time as AFA but both groups were completely ignorant of each others existence.

I don't suppose that would happen now


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## albionism (Mar 29, 2012)

Just watched it. Thanks for posting. Well worth a look.


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## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 29, 2012)

good stuff - cheers for posting


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## krink (Apr 4, 2012)

just watched the whole thing - amazing how more or less the same thing happened here at the same time. great film, might have to actually buy it


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## Deareg (Apr 4, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> it's funny how they existed at the exactly the same time as AFA but both groups were completely ignorant of each others existence.
> 
> I don't suppose that would happen now


There was a photo shown at one point of a group of men with the words "Red Action skinheads" sprayed on a wall in the back ground, so maybe they at least knew of us?


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## audiotech (Apr 4, 2012)

This film appears to debunk the idea expressed on here that Le Pen's FN grew because of a lack of militant anti-fascism? This film shows that there were clearly militant, anti-fascist groups active in France.


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## manny-p (Apr 4, 2012)

audiotech said:


> This film appears to debunk the idea expressed on here that Le Pen's FN grew because of a lack of militant anti-fascism? This film shows that there were clearly militant, anti-fascist groups active in France.


Did it mention the anti-fascists being active outside of Paris? Can't remember as I watched it ages ago.


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## butchersapron (Apr 4, 2012)

audiotech said:


> This film appears to debunk the idea expressed on here that Le Pen's FN grew because of a lack of militant anti-fascism? This film shows that there were clearly militant, anti-fascist groups active in France.


To what extent? Who were they fighting? Who was each group? Who could they call on as their base? These sort of questions.

More generally the BNP learnt from the FN's sidestep away from making this sort of thing the centre of their politics.

What's been debunked - that there were fascist groups in France? Never been claimed.


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## discokermit (Apr 4, 2012)

some of them in that film looked well hard.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> To what extent? Who were they fighting? Who was each group? Who could they call on as their base? These sort of questions.
> 
> More generally the BNP learnt from the FN's sidestep away from making this sort of thing the centre of their politics.
> 
> What's been debunked - that there were fascist groups in France? Never been claimed.


 
You might want to rewrite this, as the last bit is the exact opposite of what was posted.


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## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> You might want to rewrite this, as the last bit is the exact opposite of what was posted.


What has been debunked?


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

Post #13.


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## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2012)

Yes, which i replied to. Reply which you ignored. And the question is now restated - what is debunked exactly?


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

I haven't ignored your reply.

Edit:

Comment by one of the main players at 49.57 minutes in:

"We all felt strongly about fighting fascism in France. It was a lost cause if you look at today's elections."

Militant anti-fascism played its part in France in driving the fascists off the streets and it has sent out a message that in future whenever fascists turn to the streets they will be met with antifa's.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Did it mention the anti-fascists being active outside of Paris? Can't remember as I watched it ages ago.


 
The commentary describes a "dynamic, unstoppable force" against fascism that emerged in France at the time. There is also talk in the film of the development of a 'nationwide "Redskin" movement' in France. There was little association with political party's. Politics described mainly as, "anarchist-liberation". There was however some link with 'S.O.S Racism'.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

discokermit said:


> some of them in that film looked well hard.


 
And some of the less hard looking one's, as young as seventeen even, were taking on the most militant of the fascists. Described such: 'with arms as thick as my legs, some of whom trained French paratroopers'.


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## The39thStep (Apr 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I haven't ignored your reply.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


 
The FN still march, in fact every May Day .


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## wemakeyousoundb (Apr 5, 2012)

oh the memories,
I was a lot fitter then: too small to fight, to fast to get beaten up (well, most of the time)


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> oh the memories,
> I was a lot fitter then: too small to fight, to fast to get beaten up (well, most of the time)


you in the video?


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## wemakeyousoundb (Apr 5, 2012)

manny-p said:


> you in the video?


probably not unless in the background on some gig video, only seen half so far, but I did meet/know most of the people in it.
Due to being a young punk, not a fascist but not into getting into any of the "gangs" I pretty much got a lot of shit from all sides with my mates.
The 80s, so much fun.


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> probably not unless in the background on some gig video, only seen half so far, but I did meet/know most of the people in it.
> Due to being a young punk, not a fascist but not into getting into any of the "gangs" I pretty much got a lot of shit from all sides with my mates.
> The 80s, so much fun.


was batskin feared back then?


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## wemakeyousoundb (Apr 5, 2012)

manny-p said:


> was batskin feared back then?


depends by who I guess, main thing with fear would have been due to reputation and hearsay.
Only time I met him was on a way to a gig, after some serious verbal aggro at the start he ended saying he'd "protect" us from the other fascist/nazis at the gig, I guess he wasn't on the train on the way back as a large gang of fascist proceeded to rob every punk onboard it with baseball bats and guns in hand, and as this was the last train there wasn't really any way of not getting onto it, possibly one of my finest moment I reckon:
"look at him, he doesn't wear anything worse stealing!"
my fashion sense has not improved in the intervening years 
On arrival at the Paris train station there was a large welcoming committee of ticket inspectors and police (no one on the "scene" used to buy tickets in those days) the skinheads forced open a door opposite the platform side and made their escape that way, me and the girl I was with managed to succesfully navigate through the uniforms without getting pulled and promptly left the area.

Basically you needed to have your wits about you, keep your eyes open onto your surroundings and be sharp when spotting large gangs of shaved heads bomber wearing people (waiting till they were close enough for you to spot their colours was not a very good idea)


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> depends by who I guess, main thing with fear would have been due to reputation and hearsay.
> Only time I met him was on a way to a gig, after some serious verbal aggro at the start he ended saying he'd "protect" us from the other fascist/nazis at the gig, I guess he wasn't on the train on the way back as a large gang of fascist proceeded to rob every punk onboard it with baseball bats and guns in hand, and as this was the last train there wasn't really any way of not getting onto it, possibly one of my finest moment I reckon:
> "look at him, he doesn't wear anything worse stealing!"
> my fashion sense has not improved in the intervening years
> ...


 




Cheers for that story!Funny thing about batskin is that he is part/full lebanese? From the Christian minority I'm guessing so he probly would look abit like a 'mud/paki' to fash in the UK at that time.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Apr 5, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Cheers for that story!Funny thing about batskin is that he is part/full lebanese? From the Christian minority I'm guessing so he probly would look abit like a 'mud/paki' to fash in the UK at that time.



Well, i can't remember all the stories but quite possible, I think a fair amount of the fascist/racist ones were definitely not 100% of French origins, which I always thought weird.
Julien (who was "head" of the redskins) runs a bar in the east of Paris, batskin also runs a bar in another part of Paris he went through various other gang phases before going back to the skinhead thing including being in a biker gang IIRC.


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> Well, i can't remember all the stories but quite possible,I think a fair amount of the fascist/racist ones were definitely not 100% of French origins, which I always thought weird. .


 
Could that be why he is called 'batskin' or is there another reason for that nickname?


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

http://gloryrac.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04/batskin-interview.html



> Have you seen the blog of Kim and DVD on hunters skins? Is what it seems in line with your memories of the time?





> To be honest I flew over the blog of Kim, because he perceived spelling totally foreign to me. I have huge trouble to read a line and it is closer to the esoteric concept of the French. Otherwise I was translated. I think it's humor, because when we read, and not because they must decipher, but once you translate, you want to laugh! I find it a bit of the legend for children between five and seven years, those who do not really read and have an imagination, where they do not distinguish between reality and fantasy. This happy period where we do not know if you have dreamed, or if you have lived the events. So he made a Kung Fu Shaolin monastery, see ben, ben oui with Kwai Chang Caine! With Carradine, surely! This is the time, he had to see the series, but it was not and he is really the big difference. It was made for "small beetle". I think that's good fun. I remember just having crossed once and actually having slapped. There is nothing unusual, no flying dragons, no installation of pelican gas, not none of that was trivial.
> 
> He was how old at the time?
> Oh, he is younger than me, he must be 19 years old when I slapped him. But I have known long ago, when he was a skin, in Third Way with us in the Young Guard. This is where he discovered, contrary to what he says in his DVD, humorous, and the Para boot bombers because it was skin, skin de Segur, he can remember.
> ...


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## The39thStep (Apr 5, 2012)

manny-p said:


> Could that be why he is called 'batskin' or is there another reason for that nickname?


 
It was because he often used a baseball bat.


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## imposs1904 (Apr 5, 2012)

manny-p said:


> http://gloryrac.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04/batskin-interview.html


 
babel fish has a lot to answer for.


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## The39thStep (Apr 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> This film appears to debunk the idea expressed on here that Le Pen's FN grew because of a lack of militant anti-fascism? This film shows that there were clearly militant, anti-fascist groups active in France.


 

These were Paris based and essentially took on the neo nazi type skin groups like the JNR rather than the FN.  The JNR were the sort of neo nazi groupuscle who would march under banners  of 'Friends of Klaus Barbie'.

The FN , which would have nothing to do with them, holds its annual May day demos in Paris with out any opposition.


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> It was because he often used a baseball bat.


ahh ok!


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> babel fish has a lot to answer for.


yeah but you can get the general idea of what he was saying-just about!


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## imposs1904 (Apr 5, 2012)

manny-p said:


> yeah but you can get the general idea of what he was saying-just about!


 
I really tried but it was just too garbled.


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2012)

imposs1904 said:


> I really tried but it was just too garbled.


Basically batskin was saying the baby face guy rapping at start of chasseurs de skins (kim) used to be a fash or in their circle and was kicked out? then he went on to join the ducky boys. Probly a load of shite mind you.


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## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2012)

Be very interested in learning more about the anti-racist rockers gangs from the 70s, the black panthers etc - anyone got any pointers?


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## Deareg (Apr 5, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> oh the memories,
> I was a lot fitter then: too small to fight, to fast to get beaten up (well, most of the time)


You can never too small to fight, too young maybe but never to small.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> These were Paris based and essentially took on the neo nazi type skin groups like the JNR rather than the FN. The JNR were the sort of neo nazi groupuscle who would march under banners of 'Friends of Klaus Barbie'.
> 
> The FN , which would have nothing to do with them, holds its annual May day demos in Paris with out any opposition.


 
It was because the FN broke through politically, which led to the growth of these anti-fascist groups, described in the film posted as a '"great alternative movement" that grew all around the country, who were against racism and fascism'. Also, it was stated that the JNR actually paraded at FN marches and rally's. They were later dropped by the FN, as they became a liability image wise. The FN may hold an annual May Day rally, but the fascist gangs don't control the streets in France (I would agree, mainly Paris) as they once did.


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## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> It was because the FN broke through politically, which led to the growth of these anti-fascist groups, described in the film posted as a '"great alternative movement" that grew all around the country, who were against racism and fascism'. Also, it was stated that the JNR actually paraded at FN marches and rally's. They were later dropped by the FN, as they became a liability image wise. The FN may hold an annual May Day rally, but the fascist gangs don't control the streets in France as they once did.


Have you watched this thing? The FN are pretty much irrelevant to the story. The only time they really appear in the narrative is at the BN gig where this "great alternative movement" is shown in its opposition to the FN.The film goes to great lengths to _distinguish_ this  "great alternative movement" from the 'hunters' and to distinguish the people the hunters deal with from the FN - a point re-emphasised by the little story about the FN washing their hands of them due to their unruly nature.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Apr 5, 2012)

Deareg said:


> You can never too small to fight, too young maybe but never to small.


fair enough, corrected version:
too small and crap at fighting to do anything but get my ass whipped, which happened plenty of times


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## Deareg (Apr 5, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> fair enough, corrected version:
> too small and crap at fighting to do anything but get my ass whipped, which happened plenty of times


You should have carried something with you to even things up.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Have you watched this thing? The FN are pretty much irrelevant to the story. The only time they really appear in the narrative is at the BN gig where this "great alternative movement" is shown in its opposition to the FN.The film goes to great lengths to _distinguish_ this "great alternative movement" from the 'hunters' and to distinguish the people the hunters deal with from the FN - a point re-emphasised by the little story about the FN washing their hands of them due to their unruly nature.


 
Does it state in the film that the growth of the FN led to this "great movement" or not? You will find that it does state that. The "hunters", a 100 at most at its height in Paris btw, also stated in the film, played its part on the physical front, but it was the broader movement against racism and fascism amongst young people that was the key in France, to break the back of the fascist gangs, most of whose members "vanished" when they realised they were about to be "crushed".


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## butchersapron (Apr 5, 2012)

Wtf are you rambling on about?


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## The39thStep (Apr 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> It was because the FN broke through politically, which led to the growth of these anti-fascist groups, described in the film posted as a '"great alternative movement" that grew all around the country, who were against racism and fascism'. Also, it was stated that the JNR actually paraded at FN marches and rally's. They were later dropped by the FN, as they became a liability image wise. The FN may hold an annual May Day rally, but the fascist gangs don't control the streets in France (I would agree, mainly Paris) as they once did.


 
You need to do a bit more googling. Surely you remember the SWPs line on all this?


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Wtf are you rambling on about?


 
Another cheap shot as a reply, well done.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> You need to do a bit more googling. Surely you remember the SWPs line on all this?


 
Remind me oh wise one.


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## framed (Apr 5, 2012)

Another short film that is worth a watch is this one from the London History Group based on a series of interviews with former members of the 43 Group.


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## wemakeyousoundb (Apr 5, 2012)

Deareg said:


> You should have carried something with you to even things up.


as a rule you should never carry a "weapon" you are not ready and willing to use; neither of which I am in general. And also it would more than likely have been used on me after being taken of me so not really a great idea.
Truth be told I'm not and never have been one up for a ruck, which is what a lot of this was.


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## Deareg (Apr 5, 2012)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> as a rule you should never carry a "weapon" you are not ready and willing to use; neither of which I am in general. And also it would more than likely have been used on me after being taken of me so not really a great idea.
> Truth be told I'm not and never have been one up for a ruck, which is what a lot of this was.


Fair enough.


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## framed (Apr 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Does it state in the film that the growth of the FN led to this "great movement" or not? You will find that it does state that. The "hunters", a 100 at most at its height in Paris btw, also stated in the film, played its part on the physical front, but it was the broader movement against racism and fascism amongst young people that was the key in France, to break the back of the fascist gangs, most of whose members "vanished" when they realised they were about to be "crushed".


 
A deliberately skewed political interpretation of the period.

This is the classic line employed by the SWP leadership against squadism, that the sheer weight of numbers of the _'anti-racist movement'_ was enough to see off the far-right. The counter-argument is that it was the successes of these small groups of anti-fascist militants in street battles against the fascists that was providing the space for such a _'broader movement against racism'_ to develop.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

Nothing deliberately skewed at all. That is the political interpretation of the period in France, as depicted in the film posted. I'm not taking away from how important anti-fascist militants played in creating a space for a broader movement against racism to develop, both in France and also here in the UK. A small group of 100 anti-fascist militants based in Paris were the beginnings, much broader forces, than a hundred or so militants are needed to make it impossible for fascists gangs to control the streets as before. A huge cultural shift, involving thousands of mainly young people was the key in the final analysis.


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## manny-p (Apr 6, 2012)

framed said:


> Another short film that is worth a watch is this one from the London History Group based on a series of interviews with former members of the 43 Group.




You got any more video suggestions?


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## framed (Apr 10, 2012)

Still on the historical theme, the Resistance's own filmed account of the uprising that led to the liberation of Paris ...

_"All in French, no English subtitles, but fucking brilliant all the same. More Dead Nazis , s'il vous plait!"_ - Barry Norman



The early part of the film is very good, it's all show from the Yanks and the Free French at the end. Most of the city had already been effectively liberated by the Resistance.


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## framed (Apr 10, 2012)




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## framed (Apr 10, 2012)

Bob Doyle RIP


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## audiotech (Apr 10, 2012)




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## Red Storm (Apr 11, 2012)

Did AFA ever have knowledge of these anti-fascist gangs? I've just read an article in _Fighting Talk_ #1 on French fascism and it basically calls for a French version of AFA.


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## framed (Apr 11, 2012)

I remember a letter from one of the Paris groups was published in Red Action, so there may have been limited contact but nothing formal. The picture that accompanied the letter was the one of masked anti-fascists in front of 'Red Action Skinhead' graffiti.


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## Red Storm (Apr 12, 2012)

framed said:


> I remember a letter from one of the Paris groups was published in Red Action, so there may have been limited contact but nothing formal. The picture that accompanied the letter was the one of masked anti-fascists in front of 'Red Action Skinhead' graffiti.


 
Not found the letter yet but there is a small article in issue 13 of Fighting Talk about how AFA has made contact with militant skinhead anti-fascists in France. They produced a magazine called Sang-Mele (Mixed Blood).


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## framed (Apr 19, 2012)

The letter and pic were published in one of the old newspaper editions of Red Action, not the magazine version. However, I can't be bothered going through 20+odd years worth of shite in my garage to find it, so I'll leave the search for it to you...


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## Red Storm (Apr 19, 2012)

framed said:


> The letter and pic were published in one of the old newspaper editions of Red Action, not the magazine version. However, I can't be bothered going through 20+ years worth of shite in my garage to find it, so I'll leave the search for it to you...


 
Right haha. 

It took me long enough to read through the seven copies of _RA_ I have! 

Although I've made a mental note that you have 20+ years of Red Action goodies in your garage


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## framed (Apr 19, 2012)

Bastard! Why did I mention that? 

I am trying to organise the shite, but it'll take years...


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## Red Storm (Apr 19, 2012)

framed said:


> Bastard! Why did I mention that?
> 
> I am trying to organise the shite, but it'll take years...


 
Well I've managed to organise 10 files of 'shite' and hours of video and audio stuff for my dissertation. If I'm unlucky enough to end up doing a Masters on it I'll know where to find you


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## framed (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm only a redirection point...


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## love detective (Apr 19, 2012)

here's the pic for just now


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## miktheword (Apr 19, 2012)

framed said:


> Bob Doyle RIP







just seeing Bob Doyle (RIP) reminded me of a book that some may have by Max Arthur 'The Brits who fought for Spain'
chapters on Lou Kenton, Penny Feiwel, Jack Jones, Jack Edwards, Bob Doyle, Sam Lesser, Lee Gibson, Paddy Cochrane .

Anyway, reason for post is that I've dvd'd off sky Military Channel the 2 hour doc of the same title and by the same author with certainly Penny, Bob, Jack E, Sam and Paddy being interviewed at length with wheelchair bound Sam, Jack J, Jack E all receivinghherpoes welcome circa 2006 as they return, at the end of the doc.
couldn't find it on youtube, so If anyone knows how to upload/convert the dvd to put up on here, I could send in a copy.
The last surviving 9 were all asked by MA, would you do it again..all said 'yes'.


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## framed (Apr 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> here's the pic for just now
> 
> View attachment 18321


 

That's the one... So, it wasn't actually a letter from them, just the photo with some comment from RA, and according to the blurb with it they weren't from Paris but Marseilles... Well, at least I got it right that we did actually publish the photo!


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## love detective (Apr 20, 2012)

was in a few different issues (each time saying they were from a different place in France!) that one above was from Issue 75 - the 15 year retrospective issue

This one was from Issue 58 (Paris)



And this was the one with the letter that you were thinking off from Issue 54 (Lille!)



The whole archive should be ready to go out soon


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## framed (Apr 20, 2012)

Ah, so there was a letter, I am not losing my memory, and it looks like the Red Action Skinheads were from Lille. There was a Redskin faction from Marseilles featured in a French music/style magazine who were pictured on a rooftop, masked up, holding baseball bats and pump action shotguns. I found those pics quite recently, I'll dig them out again...


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## Red Storm (Apr 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> was in a few different issues (each time saying they were from a different place in France!) that one above was from Issue 75 - the 15 year retrospective issue
> 
> This one was from Issue 58 (Paris)
> 
> ...


 
Is it going on the new Red Action website?


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## love detective (Apr 20, 2012)

yeah they will be


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## framed (Apr 20, 2012)

Brilliant, looking forward to it, any idea how soon it will be?


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## Red Storm (Apr 20, 2012)

love detective said:


> yeah they will be


 
When do you think it will be up and running or you not sure yet?


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## love detective (Apr 20, 2012)

framed said:


> Brilliant, looking forward to it, any idea how soon it will be?


 


Red Storm said:


> When do you think it will be up and running or you not sure yet?


 
Should be pretty soon, they were pretty much all ready to go when the problems with the old site started, so that put back things quite a bit


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## Red Storm (Apr 21, 2012)

love detective said:


> Should be pretty soon, they were pretty much all ready to go when the problems with the old site started, so that put back things quite a bit


 
When its up I'll write an article on the Anti-Fascist Archive.


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## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2012)

Possible related interest,The Black Dragon Gang:



> The Black Dragon Gang was the biggest gang in french history (more than 900 members at their peak) they ruled from the mid-80s to the early 90s, as a french version of the Black Panthers, and their goal was to kick out the racist / fascist skinheads out of Paris, much like the Red Warriors & all the antifa thing, except that BDG were an all-black gang (in the film, the only white guy in the gang will tell you the story of how he got in)their turf was mostly La Defense / Nanterre area of Paris, but also Chatelet, and pretty much every station on the RER A train line. as they made this docu themselves, they wont tell you that they were also sometimes considered a racist / anti-white gang...to sum it up, white guys (no matter how they dress) were pretty much supposed to avoid hanging around La Defense at night when BDG were around...


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