# Autumn Internationals...



## llantwit (Oct 30, 2006)

> Autumn internationals
> 
> 4 November:
> Wales v Australia (Millennium Stadium, 1430 GMT, live on BBC)
> ...



I'm off to see the kiwis and the canadians - kiwis are a birthday pressie, and I'll see the canadians with my father in law who's visiting from Germany. Looking forward to both to be honest. Should be a good series. 

Predictions, selection gossip, etc here please...


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## Juice Terry (Oct 30, 2006)

I think you could well win 3 out of 4 with the All Blacks being just too much.

Unlike England who are pretty well set to lose all 4 of their games.


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## Dic Penderyn (Oct 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I'm off to see the kiwis



git.

I got tickets for the aussie, PIs & Canadians, but as of yet kiwis are a game too far.


will fuck for one ticket to Wales v New Zealand


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## llantwit (Oct 30, 2006)

The kiwi tickets went on sale inTesco in the weekend apparently - my old man was just wandering by and thought, 'I'll have a few of those!' .
They were the youth WRU's spare alocation being sold to make a few bob for the young uns.
I'm not too chuffed about the Canada game tickets, as I'd rather spend money to see the islanders, like. But That's the weekend they're coming - so what can you do? Should be fun anyway.
Dic - if you don't mmind paying full whack I might be able to get you a NZ ticket. PM/text if interested. You have to promise not to try and fuck me, though.


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## llantwit (Oct 30, 2006)

I'm not so sure about a win over the islanders.
Isn't Jenkins fielding a totally different side to the one against the aussies? What's all that about? We're hardly New Zealand, are we (yet ).


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 30, 2006)

I would LOVE 2 NZ tickets
not likely to get any tho


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

They're going for a song on e-bay!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/x-2-best-tickets-here-NOW-Wales-V-New-Zealand-25-nov_W0QQitemZ230041221668QQihZ013QQcategoryZ25611QQcmdZViewItem
£250!! 
I fucking hate touts. I also hate the fucking WRU who can get away with charging £45 in the first place. Bastards.


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## waterloowelshy (Oct 31, 2006)

i may have a spare ticket for the Ozzy game this saturday - i got a pair free so prob will give it away to someone who fancies buying a couple of drinks - the drawback being you will have to sit next to me! - oh well time to make frineds and all that! - anyone up for it let me know on here or pm me.

cheers


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

Nice offer there WW! Top bloke!
I'm working on saturday, so can't go to this one. Hope you enjoy.
We got a chance of winning, d'you reckon?


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## waterloowelshy (Oct 31, 2006)

yeah i think so - just seen the ossies going past the offices training - they are missing some big names and in transition so think we have a strong chance. our back line is looking good too! – be interested to know what the odds on a Wales win are -–may be worth a bet as we have only beaten them once in twenty years.  Anyone else interested in free ticket (minus a few pints) for sat let me know.


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## Jim2k5 (Oct 31, 2006)

got my tickets for PI and Canada but thats all i can afford at the moment, could only afford one 45 pound game and i saw oz last year and NZ last year so decided to go for PI this year. go wales wooo


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## Jim2k5 (Oct 31, 2006)

waterloowelshy said:
			
		

> yeah i think so - just seen the ossies going past the offices training - they are missing some big names and in transition so think we have a strong chance. our back line is looking good too! – be interested to know what the odds on a Wales win are -–may be worth a bet as we have only beaten them once in twenty years.  Anyone else interested in free ticket (minus a few pints) for sat let me know.



dammit i would have loved this, if only i had seen it earler, but an hour ago i told my sister i would go visit her this weekend. stupid sister in stupid england


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

Jim2k5 said:
			
		

> dammit i would have loved this, if only i had seen it earler, but an hour ago i told my sister i would go visit her this weekend. stupid sister in stupid england


How about, 'Sorry sis, there's a chance of tickets for the game. See you another time, yeah?'?!!
If she loves you she'll understand!


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

waterloowelshy said:
			
		

> yeah i think so - just seen the ossies going past the offices training - they are missing some big names and in transition so think we have a strong chance. our back line is looking good too! – be interested to know what the odds on a Wales win are -–may be worth a bet as we have only beaten them once in twenty years.  Anyone else interested in free ticket (minus a few pints) for sat let me know.


I'm not so optimistic - they trounced England and Ireland in June. We got a chance, mind.
Loads of injury/no-show worries all of a sudden for us, though. Ryan Jones, Sidoli, possibly Shane Williams, and Cockbain, Chris Horseman (leaving the front row looking dodgy without the injured Adam Jones). If they have to have Gethin Jenkins at tight-head, that could be a worry - especially off the back of his torrid game against Leicester on the weekend.


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## waterloowelshy (Oct 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I'm not so optimistic - they trounced England and Ireland in June. We got a chance, mind.
> Loads of injury/no-show worries all of a sudden for us, though. Ryan Jones, Sidoli, possibly Shane Williams, and Cockbain, Chris Horseman (leaving the front row looking dodgy without the injured Adam Jones). If they have to have Gethin Jenkins at tight-head, that could be a worry - especially off the back of his torrid game against Leicester on the weekend.


back line of shane williams, stephen jones, shanklin, alfie / morgan, james hook sounds pretty impressive mind.  And Chekai (Spelling?) is looking pretty good and may get in there for shane if he is injured anyway.  Cant see henson having a starting berth to be honest.


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

Yup - the backs look really good - as does our back row really - there's quite a bit of depth there I guess. And you can't complain about having to call up thr likes of Michael Owen because of injury.
Henson shouldn't have been picked in my opinion - waaay too patchy.


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## Dic Penderyn (Oct 31, 2006)

I worry about Chekai's (Sp?) handling - rather patchy on times.

The Horsman difficulties are a real thin end of the wedge, when will clubs learn that international matches are what keep the game popular!

Hopefully it'll get sorted and we can play:

1. C. Horsman
2. R. Thomas
3. G. Jenkins
4. I. Gough
5. I. Evans
6. J. Thomas
8. R. Jones
7. M. Williams

9. D. Peel
10. S. Jones

12. C. Sweeny
13. T. Shanklin

11. S. Williams
14. G. Thomas

15. K. Morgan


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

From the beeb today - line up announced by the looks of it:






Wales team v Australia (Millennium Stadium, Cardiff):
Kevin Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons); Gareth Thomas (Toulouse), Tom Shanklin (Cardiff Blues), Gavin Henson (Ospreys), Shane Williams (Ospreys); Stephen Jones (Llanelli Scarlets), Dwayne Peel (Llanelli Scarlets); Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Matthew Rees (Llanelli Scarlets), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Ian Gough (Newport Gwent Dragons), Jon Thomas (Ospreys), Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues), Ryan Jones (Ospreys).
Replacements: Rhys Thomas (Cardiff Blues), Duncan Jones (Ospreys), Chris Horsman (Worcester Warriors), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (Cardiff Blues), James Hook (Ospreys), Mark Jones (Llanelli Scarlets).


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## waterloowelshy (Oct 31, 2006)

squad announced on bbc wales.  my three observations are:

1) If Horsman is available for selcetion and they have sorted out the issue with Worcester then why the hell is on the bench and not in the starting line up?

2) Why oh why is Henson in the starting line up given his recent form compared with that of James Hook.

3) Shouldnt Mark Jones be given a starting place instead of Alfie? - this seems like a bit of a cop out by Jenkins if you ask me.


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

That looks OK to me - although 3 front-row replacements means only one generic 2nd row/flanker. I'd like to see Michael Owen in there, to be honest, even though he hasn't played much recently.


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

I dunno - I don't mind seeing Alfie there at all. Agree on Henson. Fucking shocking, esp. given Hook's current form being pretty good. And as far as Horseman's concerned - don't mind that either much - they've both done alright and are pretty evenly matched in my book. Good to have depth of choice there for once. Shanklin deserves to be there after his stormer against Leicester - he was awesome.
Maybe Henson's there for his kicking? Not convinced by his selection - but that's a good team overall innit?


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## waterloowelshy (Oct 31, 2006)

yeah good team overall - i think horseman and adam jones will play a half each anyway - so prob best in hindsight for Horesman to come on second half.

Henson has played well with Shanklin outside him before so maybe thats what Jenkins is banking on.  I am dissapointed with Mark Jones' ommission mind.  I think he should be in ahead of Alfie on current form.  Jones is a flyer and would give us two genuine flyers on the wings.  But there again, maybe he has picked Alfie there to tackle and counter Tikiri whos, to be fair, is gonna take some tackling on their wing.


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

Jones is a bit tasty at the mo, it's true. Good to have him as an option there, tho.
Come on the Ospreys tomorrow!!!


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## bendeus (Oct 31, 2006)

waterloowelshy said:
			
		

> 1) If Horsman is available for selcetion and they have sorted out the issue with Worcester then why the hell is on the bench and not in the starting line up?



Because he's a disciplinary liability and AJ has shown he is now capable of competing at the highest level, e.g. giving Andrew Sheridan a right old hard time in the HC the other week



> 2) Why oh why is Henson in the starting line up given his recent form compared with that of James Hook.



Because he is still the best inside centre we have, offers better kicking (both place and line) options than Hook, has greater international experience and is defensively superior. It also looks like he's starting to hit form again, though I agree he still isn't back to his best.



> 3) Shouldnt Mark Jones be given a starting place instead of Alfie? - this seems like a bit of a cop out by Jenkins if you ask me.



Hands like Feet???? If only jellyhead could catch! You really are pushing the bounds of believability by suggesting MJ, who's defence is suspect and handling is out of the bottom drawer, should be considered against Wales' record try scorer, prime motivator, rhino tackler and all round talisman.


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## bendeus (Oct 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> That looks OK to me - although 3 front-row replacements means only one generic 2nd row/flanker. I'd like to see Michael Owen in there, to be honest, even though he hasn't played much recently.



I wouldn't. His day is done. His form was dreadful in the last 6n. There's no space for a number 8 who can't break the line - we have precious few line breakers as it is.


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## bendeus (Oct 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I dunno - I don't mind seeing Alfie there at all. Agree on Henson. Fucking shocking, esp. given Hook's current form being pretty good. And as far as Horseman's concerned - don't mind that either much - they've both done alright and are pretty evenly matched in my book. Good to have depth of choice there for once. Shanklin deserves to be there after his stormer against Leicester - he was awesome.
> Maybe Henson's there for his kicking? Not convinced by his selection - but that's a good team overall innit?



Henson is weakened having Connor inside and Parker outside him while playing for the Os. He'll come good with Jones and Shanks on either side, mark my words. You're also right about the kicking. On song he's every bit as good a line kicker as Wellies, and better from the spot at distance. Would you really want to negate the 40+ metre penalty option in what will probably be a tight game? 

Hook is an excellent impact replacement should Chavin have a quiet game, though.


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

On Owen:
I'd like to think that was a bit of a blip - he's an excellent all-round footballer and a first-rate workhorse. I hope he gets a bit of form this season so he's back to his best next year.


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

I agree about Henson's kicking - he's a phenomenal kicker from hands and at goal, but I'm not convinced he should be first choice. Hope he does well, tho, obviously. He's had to take a lot of stick in his short career. Brought it on himself, mind, but I do feel a bit sorry for him.


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## bendeus (Oct 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> On Owen:
> I'd like to think that was a bit of a blip - he's an excellent all-round footballer and a first-rate workhorse. I hope he gets a bit of form this season so he's back to his best next year.



But he's nowhere near as good as Ryan Jones, who'll be holding down the number 8 slot for many years to come.


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## llantwit (Oct 31, 2006)

bendeus said:
			
		

> But he's nowhere near as good as Ryan Jones, who'll be holding down the number 8 slot for many years to come.


That's true - but he's versatile, and is a really good utility forward to have about the place. He grew up playing second row, but he's better in the back row, imo.


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## Dai Sheep (Oct 31, 2006)

I like Michael Owen as a rugby player, but his major weakness is that he lacks the power, physicality and presence of other international backrowers, meaning in the really physical games he shrinks away.

In general this team looks strong, and the backs  looks really exciting, especially the back three . 

Not sure whats wrong with Duncan Jones (injured?), on current form I would have put him in ahead of Gethin Jenkins.


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## llantwit (Nov 1, 2006)

OSPRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYS!!!!!!! 
Shit game tho.


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## Dai Sheep (Nov 1, 2006)

What a cracking result  . Should give the Wales squad a boost ahead of Saturdays encounter with the Aussie 1stXV.

I'm feeling lucky  . I fancy a flutter on first try scorer in the bookies now on saturday.


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## Jim2k5 (Nov 1, 2006)

was a dissapointing game, a great result and one wales can hopefully copy for the weekend, would be nice for wales to beat austraila for a second year in a row after not winning for 14 years


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## Karac (Nov 3, 2006)

Looking good for tomorrow
Prob the best line-up weve had for years-especially the back line
Nice to see Ryan Jones back and Shanklin to International duty
The couple of games ive seen with Shanklin playing for Cardiff-hes looked fucking amazing
We have to pick Henson no matter what-because of what he can do even if he hasnt much recent match play


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## bendeus (Nov 3, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Looking good for tomorrow
> Prob the best line-up weve had for years-especially the back line
> Nice to see Ryan Jones back and Shanklin to International duty
> The couple of games ive seen with Shanklin playing for Cardiff-hes looked fucking amazing
> We have to pick Henson no matter what-because of what he can do even if he hasnt much recent match play



Agreed, agreed and, er, agreed!


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## llantwit (Nov 4, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Looking good for tomorrow
> Prob the best line-up weve had for years-especially the back line
> Nice to see Ryan Jones back and Shanklin to International duty
> The couple of games ive seen with Shanklin playing for Cardiff-hes looked fucking amazing
> We have to pick Henson no matter what-because of what he can do even if he hasnt much recent match play


Agreed apart from the Henson bit. 
Can't have too much agreement can we?!
It's true about Shanklin - he's been awesome recently.
I've got the jitters now that it's all gonna be false-confidence and the aussie's are gonna play us off the park. 
Waits nervously.


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## Belushi (Nov 4, 2006)

Excited now, what time is kick off?


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## Karac (Nov 4, 2006)

Good game
bad start tho-and when Jones went off and Hook came on -i thought oh no were fucked!!
First time ive seen Hook play and now i see what the fuss is about- for such a young player hes as cool as a cucumber-did a tremendous tackle on Tuqiri and generally played like he had 50 caps-


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## ddraig (Nov 4, 2006)

meh, sort of lucky in the end despite being stitched up a few times with reffing non decisions.
mostly a good game tho
meh


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## llantwit (Nov 4, 2006)

That was our game for the taking. They were good (especially their backs), but so were we. The ref blew up about 2 minutes to early at the end of BOTH halves - the final whistle was way too early, and Henson's kick to touch at the end would've been a lovely platform for a final push. Was gutted at the end -but a draw's a good result for us there.
Henson was good, I reckon - I'll eat my words there. Shanklin didn't dissappoint. And yes, Hook was great. 
The dodgiest moment was that Kevin Morgan kick that gave the Aussie's the second half try.


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## bendeus (Nov 6, 2006)

Henson was immense, as were Hook and Ryan Jones. Alfie and Peel were unusually subdued. On the balance of it the result was fair, but the ref should have awarded two yellow cards to Aussie players at critical moments for typically southern hemisphere-style, cynical professional fouls. Had he done his job properly, we'd have won - simple as that!


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## llantwit (Nov 6, 2006)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Henson was immense, as were Hook and Ryan Jones. Alfie and Peel were unusually subdued. On the balance of it the result was fair, but the ref should have awarded two yellow cards to Aussie players at critical moments for typically southern hemisphere-style, cynical professional fouls. Had he done his job properly, we'd have won - simple as that!


He was a kiwi tho, wasn't he?


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## Jim2k5 (Nov 10, 2006)

14 changes to tomorrow team :O 

http://www.wru.co.uk/2_9142.php

thats like the entire team jsut getting swapped, they should stick to who they had imo


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## llantwit (Nov 10, 2006)

> See the squad in full
> 
> 15 Kevin Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons)
> 14 Lee Byrne (Ospreys)
> ...


Nah man - this a fucking audacious move - exciting as hell in my book. Lets see if we can do what the All Blacks do and field two quality teams.
That's a good looking team in my book.
Parker and Hook in the centre is a very good pairing (parker's beenawesome recently, and Hook, well - we all know he's boy wonder).
You can't fault Jones on the wing - but I don't know Byrne's play very well.
Mike Philips - meh. But he's pretty good, I guess. I'm a big Sweeny fan, and always have been.
The whole pack is pretty formidable, in my book.
There's some good subs on the bench, too. Although Jonathan Thomas isn't my favourite player.


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## Karac (Nov 10, 2006)

Sort of hope that side is expendable versus the Islanders-head high tackles and body slams will be the order of that game.


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## llantwit (Nov 14, 2006)

Well, I never - we done it and good stylee!
We now have two fully functioning pretty damned good sides. Hope this lasts to go into the world cup!

OK predictions for Canada?

40-odd - 12 to Wales is mine. I'm feeling chipper and confident.


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2006)

There seems to be a fascinating selection headache going on at the moment. It involves:

Alfie: Can play at 15, 14 or out wide
Gavnenson: Can play at 10, 12 or 15
Shanks: Can play at 13 or out wide
Kevin Morgan: Can play out wide or at 15
Wellies: Can only play at 10, and is our captain.
Hands Like Feet (Mark Jones) can only play wide

and

One James 'ascending the Pantheon' Hook, who can play at 10 or 12

At current state of play:

Alfie looks well off colour, and may no longer have the pace to play out wide. He won't supplant Shanks at 12 and, though his tackling game is the best in the business (who would you choose as your last man vs. McCaw?), his kicking game is mediocre at best. Would you as a manager choose to dispense with the greatest talisman and natural leader Wales has, though.

Shanks is hitting form just at the right time - a shoe in, and surely needs to be at 13 to provide that straight running option off the guile of Hook/Henson

Gavnenson showed his class against Aus, IMO. His kicking game gives that extra dimension, and he guards his channel well. He also showed in the offload for the Shane Williams try just what he's capable of as a creative player.

Kevin Morgan is still ring rusty but is showing signs of getting back to his best. His line breaking and angles of running, particularly against PI, were fantastic, and was responsible for tries in both that and the Aus games, either setting them up or scoring them. His tackling has been immense, but his boot is a) not cultured and b) not big.

Hook: True great potential. Quieter against PI but still showed what he can do. A cultured boot, a cool head, great hands and wonderful vision. Still wonder if he has it defensively yet, though. Particularly against the likes of Dan Carter.

Hands like Feet: Few better natural wingers in Britain with ball in hand, as evidenced by his try against PI. Blistering pace and decent defence but - as the moniker suggests, he has hands like feet. The pass out to him has to be dead on, or he'll drop it - something we can ill afford to do when there's a good chance Joe Rokococo will be the one picking it up  

Wellies: Injured or not?

So, the back line could be

Ickle Shane  Shanks  Henson  Wellies Peel  Alfie             > no Hook

                        Morgan

But other back lines could equally be:

Shanks, Alfie, Henson, Wellies, Peel, Ickle               > No Hook

                    Morgan

or:

Ickle, Shanks, Henson, Wellies, Peel, Morgan              > no Hook

                        Alfie

or:

Ickle, Shanks, Hook, Wellies, Peel, Morgan     > no Alfie

                      Henson

or:

Ickle, Shanks, Hook, Wellies, Peel, Morgan    > No Henson

                      Alfie

or:

Ickle, Shanks, Hook, Wellies, Peel, Alfie                > no Morgan

                     Henson


or, if Wellies remains injured:

Ickle, Shanks, Henson, Hook, Peel, Alfie/Morgan

                     Alfie/Morgan

It's a fucking headache and no mistake. I don't think anyone thought that Hook would come on so quickly, and I wouldn't be alone in thinking that we've unearthed a player with the potential of a Dan Carter/O'Driscoll - a once in a generation player. As such, should he be given as much exposure at the top level as possible to prepare him for the world cup? If so, who would stand aside - Jones or Henson? I bet Jenkins is kicking himself for appointing Jones as Captain now, as if Henson stands tall this season he'll be presented with one hell of a dilemma. 

My own opinion? Bring on Hook as an impact replacement in the second half for either Jones or Henson depending on which one of them is off colour in a given game.

Tell you what, though. What a wonderful headache to have - having to choose whether to keep class players such as Henson, Alfie, Hook, Wellies or Kevin Morgan on the bench is a mark of how far we've come, IMO.

Edited to add: Forgot about Hands like feet! Play Alfie against Canada on the wing. If he's not up to it, HLF starts against the ABs. Otherwise, on the bench against the Kiwis.


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## llantwit (Nov 14, 2006)

Shit Bendeus! You're right about it being a good dilemma to have. I like, out of your options:


> Ickle, Shanks, Hook, Wellies, Peel, Alfie > no Morgan
> 
> Henson


With hands like feet D ) and Morgan as super subs.


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Shit Bendeus! You're right about it being a good dilemma to have. I like, out of your options:
> 
> With hands like feet D ) and Morgan as super subs.



...which gives decent options on the bench - HLF on for Alfie or Ickle, Morgan on for the same, and the potential for positional swaps with no major holes opening up if someone ain't on their game. I also find the embarrasment of riches at scrum half to be an asset. Coops and Phillips on for Peel, all three of whom would be first choice for England over fatty Perry


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## llantwit (Nov 14, 2006)

bendeus said:
			
		

> ...which gives decent options on the bench - HLF on for Alfie or Ickle, Morgan on for the same, and the potential for positional swaps with no major holes opening up if someone ain't on their game. I also find the embarrasment of riches at scrum half to be an asset. Coops and Phillips on for Peel, all three of whom would be first choice for England over fatty Perry


 
We shouldn't laff at the English.
Ah fuck it, I guess we should.
How about a pairing of fatty Parry and chubby Goode?! 
Enough to strike fear into the hearts of any burger-bar staff.


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2006)

Team announced:

Gethin Jenkins, Matthew Rees, Adam Jones, 
Ian Gough, Ian Evans,
Jonathan Thomas, Martyn Williams,
Ryan Jones

Mark Jones, Tom Shanklin, Gavin Henson, Hook, Peel, Ickle
Alfie

Bench: Rhys Thomas, Duncan Jones, Robert Sidoli, Alan Wyn-Jones, Mike Phillips, Ceri Sweeney, Sonny Parker

Shocked that Kevin Morgan didn't even make it to the bench given that this is supposed to be the full-strength side in preparation for the ABs. Very, very harsh on him, IMO, and limits our options. Jenkins has obviously gone for the power and tackling of Alfie at FB rather than Morgan's mercurial running, even  though Morgan is more of a natural FB than Alfie. Also surprised that Rhys Thomas doesn't start - thought that he played well against the PIs. Interested that there's no Horsman on the bench also. Injured? Finally, also surprised that Gethin gets the nod against Duncan. The latter is on fire at the moment, as displayed against PIs.


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## bendeus (Nov 14, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> We shouldn't laff at the English.
> Ah fuck it, I guess we should.
> How about a pairing of fatty Parry and chubby Goode?!
> Enough to strike fear into the hearts of any burger-bar staff.



Rolfmao!   Wheel on the half time pie truck!


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## Jim2k5 (Nov 15, 2006)

not a bad little squad, should be a entrtaining game


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## Jim2k5 (Nov 17, 2006)

woo rugby night


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## Jim2k5 (Nov 17, 2006)

meh was a ok match, nothing special, hoipefully nexdt weeks will be more entertaining


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## nwnm (Nov 17, 2006)

we HAVE to play better than this to stand a chance against the all blacks. More importantly we have to stop shipping points at the start and having to play catch up. We also have to finish strongly - thats where the all blacks got us during the last world cup, <and what a thrilling match that was>.


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## bendeus (Nov 18, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> we HAVE to play better than this to stand a chance against the all blacks. More importantly we have to stop shipping points at the start and having to play catch up. We also have to finish strongly - thats where the all blacks got us during the last world cup, <and what a thrilling match that was>.



Couldn't agree more. Yet again defensive errors cost us dear, and could mean us shipping 50+ points against the ABs if replicated in that match.

Positives: Martyn Williams (again); Ickle (though I'm not sure if he can do that against the ABs)

Negatives: Our AWFUL fucking lineout. It comes to something when Canada win all their own ball and we fuck up repeatedly. The turnover stats were only made more palatable by the fact that the 50/50 balls on our own throw that bounced around randomly were mainly luckily won by us.

Sonny Parker: Sorry butt, number 12s don't just repeatedly run into people. Class act against the PIs, hopelessly out of his depth against a team of the ABs quality.

Hook: Too much too young. Please play Henson at 12 and Wellies at 10. His youth and inexperience were exposed tonight, though his place kicking was spot on.

Alfie: Off the pace in spite of the try. White line fever when he could have passed inside for a sure try and instead lost the ball. Should not start next weekend.

Ian Evans: Penalty machine. Has potential but problematic character flaws.

Defence: Sleeping again at critical moments. Exposed hideously for the try from the driving lineout. You can betcha bottom dollar that Messrs. Henry and Hansen were furiously scribbling notes throughout that game, and that weaknesses will be ruthlessly exploited come next Saturday.

Attack: Too lateral again. Crabbing it towards the wings without that punch and incisiveness that made us rock in 2005. Shanks needs to step up another gear and Kevin 'Ratboy' Morgan must start.

Hands like Feet: Hmmmmmm. He has hands like feet.

My starting back line:

Ickle  Shanks  Gavnenson  Wellies  Peel  Alfie/HLF (though I despair at both)

Ratboy

38-8 ABs


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## Jim2k5 (Nov 21, 2006)

Fans rewarded with extra seats for NZ

http://www.wru.co.uk/14_9217.php

very tempting but at 45+BF it gets expsensive very quickly


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## bendeus (Nov 22, 2006)

Jenkins has picked Parker at 12!!!    

Seems that he is going for the damage limitation option; trying to keep the ball by going straight down the middle and then recycling it from the tackle. The problems with this are:


Kicking options from hand now limited to Wellies
Place kicking from distance now nullified, allowing ABs to do their usual, clever professional fouling at will provided they're more than 40 yards out
Huge reliance on Parker breaking the line in order to suck in tacklers and reset the ball quickly. This seems to ignore the fact that he'll be going head-to-head with McCaw and Collins, who'll rip him a new ringpiece and get turnover ball again, and again and again. It also seems to be based on the premise that Parker (who wouldn't even get into either of the AB squads) can actually break the line in the first place against the best defence in the world
Sonny Parker doesn't pass. The only chance we have of scoring will be to bring Ickle and Kevin Morgan into play, or to allow Shanks to go route one. Parker will not provide that link, forcing wellies to throw out miss passes to Shanks, and thus leave us open to, ahem, turnovers.
Parker is not a 12. He's a 13. He doesn't have the guile or rugby nouse to lead the line and make things happen
 Parker and Shanklin have no experience together in those positions, Henson and Shanklin have loads
By picking Parker, retired until a month ago and not a natural 12, he is sending out a very, very negative message to Henson, who is a natural 12 and on his day one of the most creative and naturally gifted players in the Welsh game. He is a confidence player, and management such as this can only serve to undermine him and diminish his natural game

I really think that Jenkins has fucked up this time. It's a retrograde move. We are at our best when playing expansive rugby and spreading it wide. By picking this starting XV, Gareth has basically admitted defeat in advance and ensured that large doubts hang over one of the players we have to develop in order to be internationally competitive, especially with the WC coming up.

I had doubts over his coaching ability before he even started at the Wales job - look at how Phil Davies has improved the Scarlets with barely any change in personnel since he took over, and those doubts are becoming more deep seated. Parker appears to have been picked on the back of two performances - one strong one vs. a hastily assembled and experimental PI side that was disorganised and there for the taking, and one adequate one vs . a frankly weak Canada, ffs! Henson, on the other hand, had a fantastic game against Australia, one of his best in a Wales shirt, IMO. What exactly is it that he's done to deserve this?

NZ; 50+, Wales 10ish

Gareth out!


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## llantwit (Nov 22, 2006)

Harsh words but fair. Agree that Henson should have a day out against the ABs - we're gonna lose anyway, so we might as well play our game and take risks. His kicking from hands would also cme in handy. I like Parker, but he is a bit 1-D.
Is Henson on the bench?


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## llantwit (Nov 22, 2006)

> Wales: Kevin Morgan; Mark Jones, Tom Shanklin, Sonny Parker, Shane Williams; Stephen Jones (capt), Dwayne Peel; Duncan Jones, Rhys Thomas, Adam Jones, Ian Evans, Ian Gough, Jonathan Thomas, Martyn Williams, Ryan Jones.
> Replacements: Mathew Rees, Gethin Jenkins, Alun Wyn Jones, Alix Popham, Mike Phillips, James Hook, Gavin Henson.


Hmm.
I've got a bad feeling about this.


> New Zealand: Mils Muliaina; Rico Gear, Conrad Smith, Luke McAlister, Sitiveni Sivivatu; Dan Carter, Byron Kelleher; Neemia Tialata, Anton Oliver, Carl Hayman, Keith Robinson, Ali Williams, Jerry Collins, Richie McCaw (capt), Rodney So'oialo.
> Replacements: Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock, James Ryan, Reuben Thorne, Piri Weepu, Nick Evans, Ma'a Nonu.


Poos pants. Runs away.


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## bendeus (Nov 22, 2006)

Henson's on the bench, but rumour has it that it's only as cover for FB because Alfie's injured.

The only positive spin I can see from this is if Jenkins tries to hold the ABs to within a score or two for the first 60 and then brings on Hook and Gav as a double impact substitution for the last 20, thus upsetting the AB gameplan.

Doubt it, though


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## waterloowelshy (Nov 22, 2006)

Henson is still recovering from his toe infection from last week that kept him out though.  So prob not the best idea to start with him if he isnt 100% fit.  Any sign of weakness or lack of match fitness will just be magnified massively playing the all blacks.  He is there if we need him - but due to lack of training over the past week isnt fully fit to last a full match.


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## bendeus (Nov 22, 2006)

waterloowelshy said:
			
		

> Henson is still recovering from his toe infection from last week that kept him out though.  So prob not the best idea to start with him if he isnt 100% fit.  Any sign of weakness or lack of match fitness will just be magnified massively playing the all blacks.  He is there if we need him - but due to lack of training over the past week isnt fully fit to last a full match.



I see where you're coming from but, by the same token, isn't Wellies in exactly the same position? They've both been back in training for the same amount of time since coming back from their respective injuries yet the Duke of Wellington goes straight back into the starting XV

Should Hook play at ten for the same reason that SP should be playing at 12?


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## waterloowelshy (Nov 22, 2006)

bendeus said:
			
		

> I see where you're coming from but, by the same token, isn't Wellies in exactly the same position? They've both been back in training for the same amount of time since coming back from their respective injuries yet the Duke of Wellington goes straight back into the starting XV
> 
> Should Hook play at ten for the same reason that SP should be playing at 12?


I personally think that Hook should be playing at 10 given Jones' return from injury and Hook's form. Think Jenks may have bottled that though as without Alfie they would be onto 3rd choice captain which isnt ideal - and Hook offers a ready made replacemtn for No 10 or 12 depending on how things go.  I personally would liked to have seen Hook in the starting line up either in place of Jones or Parker, but can kind of understand Jenks back up plan by leaving him on the bench to cover a multitude of bases.  I suppose its inevitable that somenone will get injured against NZ.


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## bendeus (Nov 22, 2006)

Mmm. While I think that Hook will one day be a great, he's still a kid with only 5 international caps to his name, and got found out to an extent by Canada, IMHO. I wouldn't play him at 10 against the ABs at this moment in his career - look what Henson's treatment of English rising star Tait in 2005 did to the young fella's confidence at the top level. He's only just finding his way back now.


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## sleaterkinney (Nov 22, 2006)

It's going to be tough for wales, NZ are very good at controlling the game, and very physical.

I'm still full of it after the Irish games, what a team we have - good combinations all over the place, Neil Best is a helluva player to emerge too. certainly the best team in the northern hemisphere.


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## bendeus (Nov 22, 2006)

Till the opening match of the 6N, that is


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## waterloowelshy (Nov 22, 2006)

Yeah - but you cant judge all young players on the shortcomings of Tait.

Anywya - all i have to say is i really cant wait for Sat - it does seem to have that air of anticipation about the place that hasn't been around for a long time now.  I guess we should just hope for a truly great game No matter what the outcome - lets just hope for tries galore from both sides.  What with this and the ashes starting tonight i am in sporting utopia!


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## bendeus (Nov 22, 2006)

I wish I could share your excitement. I can't help but feel that if Ruddock were still at the helm I'd be far more optimistic about not only the ABs test but also the 6N and the WC. I'm just not convinced that Jenkins is good enough, and his appointments to his team, namely Rowland Phillips as defence coach - experienced at Welsh Premiership level - and McBryde - experienced at being very strong and playing for Wales - are sub par.

I'd be very, very happy to be surprised on Saturday, though.


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## sleaterkinney (Nov 25, 2006)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Till the opening match of the 6N, that is


See you there boyo!.


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## llantwit (Nov 26, 2006)




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## rhys gethin (Nov 26, 2006)

Funny how this thread has gone so quiet.   Wonder why?

It was bloody brilliant rugby, though, fair play!


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## bendeus (Nov 26, 2006)

Brilliant rugby by the ABs, maybe, but if you look at the stats in many ways there was parity on the field in terms of possession, time in opponents' half, tackles made, etc. I'm not saying we would or could have won that game but tactical naivete from Jenkins cost us dear. Our defence was shite again, with far too many gaps opening up and inviting the ABs to run at us. Parker as 12 was exposed as idiocy, particularly when Hook and, latterly, Henson were brought on to allow us to begin playing our natural game. 

GJ also needs to pick players on form rather than reputation. Peel was rubbish yesterday and was frequently caught staring at the ball as it popped out of the back of a ruck rather than getting it out to Wellies. Phillips looked far better when on, IMHO. Wellies was obviously not match fit and his rubbish line kicking cost us dear by gifting the ball to the most dangerous back three in world rugby. This, for me, showed the greatest idiocy from Jenkins: knowing that failing to find touch from our kicks would be suicide, Jenkins only picked one recognised kicker, and an injured one at that. The minute the second, and later the third kicking options, in Hook and Henson, were introduced, the game changed and we started moving forwards

As for our 8, Ryan Jones was particularly dissapointing, though he is reported to still be finding his way to full fitness after his big layoff. A. Jones was mullered in the scrum, leaving open the possibility of the far more abrasive Horsman coming in his stead. Cockbain's return should shore up the second row, and Alun Wyn-Jones should be developed at 6 as Jonothan Thomas is simply not mean enough for games at this level. Popham was good when he came on, but he is a bit headless chicken, and his defensive frailities were exposed for the ABs fourth tries.

Anyway, we should be looking at a runner's up spot in the 6N as the minimum return this winter, and yet why do I find myself feeling that we're going to slip further back under Jenkins' tutelage. He appears to be undoing all the things that made us so competitive in '05, such as our tackling, speed and aggression at the breakdown and (and I know I repeat myself on this) offloading in the tackle which, theoretically, we should be the second best team in the world at doing. Why isn't it happening? Possibly because Jenkins is yesterday's coach with outmoded tactics and limited ability to change.

I'd say bring back Ruddock if it weren't for the fact that England will probably offer him the job in the next couple of weeks


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## rhys gethin (Nov 27, 2006)

bendeus - I don't disagree with any of that, surprisingly - but it seems to me that it is something about the AB's _training_ to work as a team that is way ahead of everyone else.   It looked, almost all the time, as if they had ten more players than we did:  I found it awesome, to be honest!


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## llantwit (Nov 27, 2006)

What was so disappointing for me was looking at our performance. I *know* that we're capable of playing an appealing free flowing running game with offloads from the tackle providing opportunities for runers to take the bal on at pace... but we were just static. I thought we'd get beaten heavilly, but I also thought we'd play an open game and run in around 20 points. I didn't tyhink we'd get as marmalised as we actually did.


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## bendeus (Nov 27, 2006)

Rhys: Aye. It's that esprit de corps that was present in 2005 and seems lacking now. I'd say that the 2005 team gelled together so well because they believed in the gameplan and tactics that were being employed, because they played to their individual and collective strengths. There were times during the GS year the collective understanding, both in terms of attack and defence, was almost psychic. They KNEW there'd be a player on each shoulder to take the offload, just like NZ do now. Looking at Ireland, who we trounced in 2005, it makes me wonder where we'd have been if we'd had that continuity in coaching and a relatively injury-free season in 2006 to allow an already bedded in team to get to know each other even more. I'd be willing to bet we'd be a lot closer to them, and that we'd have run the ABs a lot closer. My fear is that we're about to piss a golden generation against the wall.

Llantwit: Coaching again. The players looked clueless and out of sorts because they either did not understand or did not agree with what was being tactically asked of them. Wales tasted success by avoiding contact, keeping the ball alive and getting quick ball at the breakdown because we don't have the physicality to match other nations in the brawn department. The minute we acknowledged this we started to play our way - great rugby. We have lost the ability to do these things and have now reverted to a style of play ill-suited to us as a team and, frankly, outmoded. Picking a crash and bang player with little guile on the ball at 12 just proved how naive our tactics were. I really think we're in for disappointment for a while to come.


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## llantwit (Nov 28, 2006)

I hope you're wrong about the coaching - but I'm starting to think you're not.


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