# Energy Prices: Don't Pay Campaign



## chilango (Jul 9, 2022)

Don't Pay
					

Don’t Pay is a grassroots campaign opposing the rise in energy bills. We demand:




					dontpay.uk
				




Clearly modelled on the Poll Tax (amongst other things).

This looks good.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 9, 2022)

Stop paying rent is what's really needed.


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## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Stop paying rent is what's really needed.



And food.


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## LDC (Jul 9, 2022)

chilango said:


> Don't Pay
> 
> 
> Don’t Pay is a grassroots campaign opposing the rise in energy bills. We demand:
> ...



Looks very good. Nice simple clear website, you can order leaflets and stickers for your area. Has potential this...


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## chilango (Jul 9, 2022)

LDC said:


> Looks very good. Nice simple clear website, you can order leaflets and stickers for your area. Has potential this...


I also like how they're clear on the numbers they think they'll need to get before anybody commits.


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## planetgeli (Jul 9, 2022)

LDC said:


> Looks very good. Nice simple clear website



It is but they could do with a proof reader

Anyway I'm in, glad somebody is doing something.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 9, 2022)

Great idea. I'm in. Anyone got any idea who is behind this group?


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## campanula (Jul 9, 2022)

I'm in and I have ordered my first lot of leaflets  (£7.69, inc. postage) and put my name down to campaign.


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## maomao (Jul 9, 2022)

I don't fancy our chances but I'm in.


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## hitmouse (Jul 9, 2022)

Was a bit of discussion over on this thread about it: Should there be an energy/fuel payment strike in the UK? Dunno what the chances of it working are but I've pretty much given up trying to predict things at this point.


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## muscovyduck (Jul 9, 2022)

Even if you can't hold off paying indefinitely, just "forgetting" or being 'unable' to pay for a week or two could help the cause


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## Red Sky (Jul 9, 2022)

campanula said:


> I'm in and I have ordered my first lot of leaflets  (£7.69, inc. postage) and put my name down to campaign.


Went with the stickers myself.


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## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Anyone got any idea who is behind this group?



They're trying to remain anonymous:









						Campaign calls for 1m UK consumers to stop paying energy bills
					

Anonymous activists behind Don’t Pay hope cancelling direct debits will have impact akin to poll tax protests




					www.theguardian.com


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 9, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> They're trying to remain anonymous:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough


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## LDC (Jul 9, 2022)

Yeah ordered a load of leaflets and stickers. Will do some locally, try and tie it to other stuff a bit - local mutual aid group, etc.


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## agricola (Jul 9, 2022)

Can't see this working, but a strike on buying petrol almost certainly would.


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## MickiQ (Jul 9, 2022)

I would imagine most people have already cut back on non-essential motoring as it is.


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## platinumsage (Jul 9, 2022)

Hopefully it will be more successful than the Big Power Switch Off.


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## LDC (Jul 9, 2022)

agricola said:


> Can't see this working, but a strike on buying petrol almost certainly would.



Why do you think that, I'd say the opposite? People often have no choice but to drive, and something about that risks falling into moralism, and also not everyone drives so it from the start isn't going to include plenty of the poorest people. With this _in theory_ there's no impact to your day-to-day life as you just keep doing the same as before, just without paying. I think stuff like this has real potential.


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## maomao (Jul 9, 2022)

A strike on buying petrol would become a de facto general strike pretty quickly.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 9, 2022)

maomao said:


> A strike on buying petrol would become a de facto general strike pretty quickly.



Certainly would round here, as with maybe half of all buses being cancelled at short notice many people will have no choice bit to drive.


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## agricola (Jul 9, 2022)

LDC said:


> Why do you think that, I'd say the opposite? People often have no choice but to drive, and something about that risks falling into moralism, and also not everyone drives so it from the start isn't going to include plenty of the poorest people. With this _in theory_ there's no impact to your day-to-day life as you just keep doing the same as before, just without paying. I think stuff like this has real potential.



There are some people who do need to drive at certain times, but there are a lot of people and a lot of journeys for which alternate forms of transport exist (especially in London). If enough people stopped using their cars for those purposes for any length of time the demand for fuel will inevitably drop and so will the price, probably rather quickly. There would be less pollution, fewer people on the road (so those who did have to use it would use less too) and hopefully many more people would realise that actually they don't need that metal thing which costs them thousands a year in fuel, insurance, depreciation, parking, servicing etc etc.

With the wider energy strike though there is no drop in demand; in fact there might even be more of a demand because some people might think "sod it" and consume more to make more of a point.  All it will do is put a small hole in the pockets of energy supply companies, and it will inevitably lead to disconnections when they start to chase people for repayment.  I think the only way a wider strike like that would work would be to organize less consumption, or to get more communal ownership of local generation and storage of power. 

The cynic in me does wonder how genuine things like this (and especially the go-slow driving protest against forecourt prices) are.


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## MickiQ (Jul 9, 2022)

The fact that these people claim they want to remain anonymous for fear of "reprisals" does tend to undermine their message. Would be revolutionaries who aren't prepared to stand up and be counted are somewhat dubious.
I can think of so many flaws in this plan

Each person taking part has NO IDEA just how many others are so they are taking the same risk as if they decided to do it alone. An awful lot of people who might sign up now in the heat of the moment thinking 'we have got to do something'  will have had pleny of time to realise that doing something is not without risk. 

Obviously the energy companies will struggle to penalise 1m people compared to 10 thousand but they can still do it, it will just take longer and during that time people will either run up bigger and bigger debts or just give up and still have to pay the debt off. It won't just get cancelled no matter what.

This action will stay on people's credit ratings for a very long time which will effect their ability to get loans to buy other stuff including a mortgage, it will particularly hit renters hard if they have to move since not many landlords are going to be keen on a new tenant with a record of refusing to pay their bills.

And of course how will taking action against the energy companies (privately owned commercial interests) put pressure on the Govt which is the only body which could actually do something? The energy companies can scream a lot louder and will get listened to a lot more than private citizens. But the Govt doesn't have to pay subsidies it could equally change the law making it easier to put in a smart meter.

Fuel boycotts I'm equally dubious about, I'm sure that people are cutting back on what they consider non-essential driving anyway, I certainly have and I am 'relatively' well-off compared to many people. There has been a massive surge in drive offs from petrol stations of late for obvious reasons.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The fact that these people claim they want to remain anonymous for fear of "reprisals" does tend to undermine their message. Would be revolutionaries who aren't prepared to stand up and be counted are somewhat dubious.
> I can think of so many flaws in this plan
> 
> Each person taking part has NO IDEA just how many others are so they are taking the same risk as if they decided to do it alone. An awful lot of people who might sign up now in the heat of the moment thinking 'we have got to do something'  will have had pleny of time to realise that doing something is not without risk.
> ...


What a craven, lily-livered post. Why shouldn't people stay anonymous? You're doubtless the sort of person who wishes people stand up and fight on their opponents' terms and who piously objects to kicking people when they're down. The government isn't the only body that can do something about fuel prices, fuel companies can. And they're reaping record profits. Why not have a non-payment campaign? No one ever gets prices reduced by continuing to pay full whack, and if it gives the energy companies a bloody nose so much the better


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## MickiQ (Jul 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> What a craven, lily-livered post. Why shouldn't people stay anonymous? You're doubtless the sort of person who wishes people stand up and fight on their opponents' terms and who piously objects to kicking people when they're down. The government isn't the only body that can do something about fuel prices, fuel companies can. And they're reaping record profits. Why not have a non-payment campaign? No one ever gets prices reduced by continuing to pay full whack, and if it gives the energy companies a bloody nose so much the better


Go ahead then I'm not stopping you.


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## planetgeli (Jul 9, 2022)

> This action will stay on people's credit ratings for a very long time which will effect their ability to get loans to buy other stuff including a mortgage,



Jesus. The millions of people worst affected by energy price rises aren't the same cohort as those worried about future fucking mortgages. There are millions of people for whom not paying £3300 in energy costs will not be a choice but a fact of life. They worry about feeding their kids, not some ideological pipe dream of buying a home.



> it will particularly hit renters hard if they have to move since not many landlords are going to be keen on a new tenant with a record of refusing to pay their bills.



If enough people do it, landlords won't be able to be so picky as to who to persecute. Just like the energy companies and the courts won't be able to penalize mass numbers of people.

Mass non-payment does work.


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## MickiQ (Jul 9, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Jesus. The millions of people worst affected by energy price rises aren't the same cohort as those worried about future fucking mortgages. There are millions of people for whom not paying £3300 in energy costs will not be a choice but a fact of life. They worry about feeding their kids, not some ideological pipe dream of buying a home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The millions of people worst affected by energy price rises are on pre-payment meters so this won't help them 

It's already difficult enough to get rented accomodation if you're on a low income never mind with a bad payment record hanging over you. Yes if enough people take part in this (and by enough it means millions) then yes it might mean that landlords can't afford to be so picky though of course they can just sell up rather than go to the trouble of finding new tenants.

If you are a renter taking part in this then you are making the assumption based on no verifiable proof whatsoever than the rest of society has got your back. If you genuinely believe that and it will work out then go ahead and do it, I salute your bravery but I fully understand why a lot of people might not be so keen.


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## muscovyduck (Jul 9, 2022)

If they don't stay anonymous they'll get sued. Not for their own energy payments like everyone else, but for the entire disruption. And that's before considering things like harassment from the media and so on. Since when did organising direct action mean you need to release your full name and other identifying info into the public domain, ffs


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 9, 2022)

No-one need get into any trouble with this. First, you don't pay. If you're sensible you'll put what you owe on one side (if you can afford to) for when it may be needed. Then put off paying what you owe for as long as possible. Then pay it, or whatever payment plan may have been agreed. Then stop paying again. If millions of people are doing this then building societies and banks will just ignore it, if they want to continue in business. But the impact on the energy providers will be considerable and the impact on society of non-payment will also be considerable. The government won't want that. Something will happen.


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## MickiQ (Jul 9, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> If they don't stay anonymous they'll get sued. Not for their own energy payments like everyone else, but for the entire disruption. And that's before considering things like harassment from the media and so on. Since when did organising direct action mean you need to release your full name and other identifying info into the public domain, ffs


I know full well why they are staying anonymous from their point of view it makes sense but don't you think people who are being asked to take this action might be a little concerned that the organisers aren't willing to stick their heads above the parapet?
I bet if it works they will be quite happy to claim credit but if it fails and there are people on the news complaining about how this has left them in debt/in danger of losing their homes do you think they will come forward or just fade into the background?


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## campanula (Jul 9, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> I know full well why they are staying anonymous from their point of view it makes sense but don't you think people who are being asked to take this action might be a little concerned that the organisers aren't willing to stick their heads above the parapet?
> I bet if it works they will be quite happy to claim credit but if it fails and there are people on the news complaining about how this has left them in debt/in danger of losing their homes do you think they will come forward or just fade into the background?


MickQ, there are going to be plenty of us not paying. Not out of some ideological position though...but because we quite literally cannot pay. I guess you are not seeing yourself in that position...and in truth, neither am I cos I have a prepayment meter. So it will probably be dinners going astray in my case. So, you know...solidarity. That's why I will be shoving leaflets through doors...and hoping my better off neighbours, in a similar act of solidarity, decide to hang onto their cash for a few extra weeks. This is what community action looks like. An easy way of supporting those of us who have no fucking choice. It is about strength of numbers, a desperate loyalty, organised action on behalf of those who are the poorest and most vulnerable. I get why people are cynical about the possibility of any sort of change, thinking about the utter feebleness of our parliamentary representatives (fuck them)  but FFS, just being so dismissive is kinda weaselly. 

Personally, I don't actually give the smallest fuck who is organising this - I am bloody glad for any chance whatsoever to register my rage and disgust as a small cog in a much bigger machine because we are not going to make a single iota of difference whining on the internet about the misguided idea of standing together and facing down injustice.


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## LDC (Jul 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> The fact that these people claim they want to remain anonymous for fear of "reprisals" does tend to undermine their message. Would be revolutionaries who aren't prepared to stand up and be counted are somewhat dubious.
> I can think of so many flaws in this plan
> 
> Each person taking part has NO IDEA just how many others are so they are taking the same risk as if they decided to do it alone. An awful lot of people who might sign up now in the heat of the moment thinking 'we have got to do something'  will have had pleny of time to realise that doing something is not without risk.
> ...



No, it doesn't undermine 'the message'. For a start, it's not about any message, it's about applying collective financial (and maybe some social) pressure to companies to drop prices. Nobody organising the campaign needs to 'stand up and be counted' by being named, as had been said that could fuck this up even before it gets going with newspaper exposes, legal action, etc. I am willing to bet that they'll be doing the campaign of non-payment themselves, that's all that is needed. I also think your 'criticism' on this front is just the flip side of what people say when people are named in that it's, "Oh look at their egos, it's all about them" or similar.

People do have an idea of how many people are talking part, there's a goal of 1 million, if that's not reached it doesn't happen. And when you sign up you can be put in touch with people in your postcode to do this together. So it's partly going to result in building local contacts of networks of mutual aid and support for this project, as well as also finding people who might be on the same page as you materially and politically for the longer term. That's important.

You're mistaken if you think energy companies are likely to take 1 million people through the courts, especially as if it got to that point they'd be protests at the courts, demos, etc. It would be one of the biggest social movements for decades and I am willing to bet if it got to that it would catalyze loads of other stuff in a similar way and might just spiral into something pretty important.

All the credit rating and mortgage stuff you mention, meh it's not worthy of any time beyond saying political action comes with some risk often. People know this and can decide as adults if they want to take that, and the risk you mention is very low level and I'd expect not to really be a problem for many/any people.

The pressure on the government thing is again some mealy mouthed nit-picking. If this was targeted at the government you'd be saying 'Oh but why not the companies, they're the ones you pay money to?' The reality is it's much harder to 'target the government' whereas there's a clear easily identifiable line between us and the energy companies: they send us demands for cash and we have to send them that cash. And also of course this is targeting both really, political pressure will mount on the government through this, they might well be forced to act, and even if they act on the side of the companies it shows people what side they stand on.

Your points might be well-meaning but they're not really political (or even practical) criticisms, they're just radio talk show cynical middle aged man griping. While of course not perfect, it's a pretty good go at something that I think has potential in what are fucking hard times (with worse coming) for a load of people. But all ears if you have better plans for other projects.


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## MickiQ (Jul 10, 2022)

campanula said:


> MickQ, there are going to be plenty of us not paying. Not out of some ideological position though...but because we quite literally cannot pay. I guess you are not seeing yourself in that position...and in truth, neither am I cos I have a prepayment meter. So it will probably be dinners going astray in my case. So, you know...solidarity. That's why I will be shoving leaflets through doors...and hoping my better off neighbours, in a similar act of solidarity, decide to hang onto their cash for a few extra weeks. This is what community action looks like. An easy way of supporting those of us who have no fucking choice. It is about strength of numbers, a desperate loyalty, organised action on behalf of those who are the poorest and most vulnerable. I get why people are cynical about the possibility of any sort of change, thinking about the utter feebleness of our parliamentary representatives (fuck them)  but FFS, just being so dismissive is kinda weaselly.
> 
> Personally, I don't actually give the smallest fuck who is organising this - I am bloody glad for any chance whatsoever to register my rage and disgust as a small cog in a much bigger machine because we are not going to make a single iota of difference whining on the internet about the misguided idea of standing together and facing down injustice.


Good Luck I genuinely wish you success


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## MickiQ (Jul 10, 2022)

LDC said:


> No, it doesn't undermine 'the message'. For a start, it's not about any message, it's about applying collective financial (and maybe some social) pressure to companies to drop prices. Nobody organising the campaign needs to 'stand up and be counted' by being named, as had been said that could fuck this up even before it gets going with newspaper exposes, legal action, etc. I am willing to bet that they'll be doing the campaign of non-payment themselves, that's all that is needed. I also think your 'criticism' on this front is just the flip side of what people say when people are named in that it's, "Oh look at their egos, it's all about them" or similar.
> 
> People do have an idea of how many people are talking part, there's a goal of 1 million, if that's not reached it doesn't happen. And when you sign up you can be put in touch with people in your postcode to do this together. So it's partly going to result in building local contacts of networks of mutual aid and support for this project, as well as also finding people who might be on the same page as you materially and politically for the longer term. That's important.
> 
> ...


That is an excellent and well thought out response that is one of the things I love about this place


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## LDC (Jul 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> That is an excellent and well thought out response that is one of the things I love about this place



Sorry if it was a bit grumpy mate, I wrote it pre-coffee! We're all a bit middle aged cynical, myself included, but I do try and fight against it sometimes, and I didn't mean it to come across badly if it did.


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## kabbes (Jul 10, 2022)

I hope this works and I’m not surprised that in a social system that has built itself around consumer-capitalism, the only viable response people see as available is a consumerist one.  No criticism from me on the action.  I’m interested to see its efficacy, though, because capital has built a clever series of walls between the end-consumer and the ownership of the resource.  

The companies from whom the payment will be withheld are not those who own the energy production or even the organisation and delivery mechanisms of the energy.  They are just service providers who arrange the administrative details of the delivery mechanisms.  That’s why so many of them went bust recently — like all service providers, they operate on the knife-edge of not really owning anything of value, just their customer book.  They don’t actually have the ability to affect prices that much, because they have to buy the energy wholesale at market rates.  They can manage the process by arranging forward contracts and so on but eventually, they have to just pay the cost the actual energy producers are demanding.  So when payment is withheld from these companies, a few more will probably therefore go to the wall.  What I’m wondering is what happens after that?  

I suppose the aim is that the government will have to intervene at some point.  As the administrative system (in the form of the energy companies) starts to crumble, the government will have to step in to fill the void.  At that point, they may feel the need to intervene in the pricing.  That’s the hope, anyway.


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## MickiQ (Jul 10, 2022)

LDC said:


> Sorry if it was a bit grumpy mate, I wrote it pre-coffee! Didn't mean it to come across badly if if did.


You didn't you made your point very well. We will see which of us is correct come Oct. For what it is worth I would sooner it is you than me.


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## LDC (Jul 10, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> You didn't you made your point very well. We will see which of us is correct come Oct. For what it is worth I would sooner it is you than me.



TBH if you'd been going on about how amazing and brilliant it was, I'd probably have been a bit more hang on what about XYZ as problems. Anyway, betting on something like this failing is a safe bet unfortunately though, as kabbes said there's a whole load of barriers to stuff like this 'working' built into the system. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. Etc.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 10, 2022)

One thing worth remembering is if you cancel your monthly DDs, most, if not all, companies will put you on higher tariffs, I know from my current games with OVO that it would increase my gas & electric from around £1500 to £1600+. However, I guess they have to give notice, OVO gives you 10 days to set-up a new DD.

Long story, short, I have been well over-charged, and they continue to over estimate my usage despite having meter readings, it's with the ombudsman and due to be resolved by 21st. They think I am over £300 in debit, whereas I am actually around £700 in credit. 

In June they put my DD up from £125 to £185, so I cancelled it & got given a deadline to set-up a new one, which I did for £125. After that payment was made, I get notice they are putting it up to £189, as soon as they did that, I cancelled it again, then set up a new one, but this time for only £1, which is due to go out on the 15th. After which I expect to hear they are putting it up again, so the game will continue. 

So, the tip is, after cancelling the DD, set-up a new one for a silly amount, or if their system doesn't allow that, just cancel it the day before it's due go out, get another 10 notice period, rinse & repeat.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 10, 2022)

Come October a lot of people may well have built up some kind of credit with the energy companies. This will give customers some wiggle room and make life more tricky for the companies. If a customer is in credit then they can't be taken to court at all, yet the cash flow which the companies rely on will be reduced. The message will be received loud and clear, the pressure on the government increased.


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## kabbes (Jul 10, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, the tip is, after cancelling the DD, set-up a new one for a silly amount, or if their system doesn't allow that, just cancel it the day before it's due go out, get another 10 notice period, rinse & repeat.


The amount of the direct debit is, by its very nature, in the control of the creditor. If you’re setting up the amount, that’s a standing order.


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## platinumsage (Jul 10, 2022)

kabbes said:


> The amount of the direct debit is, by its very nature, in the control of the creditor. If you’re setting up the amount, that’s a standing order.



Not if the creditor hands over control of setting the amount to you.


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## kabbes (Jul 10, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Not if the creditor hands over control of setting the amount to you.


Is that something that energy companies allow, though?


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## planetgeli (Jul 10, 2022)

kabbes said:


> Is that something that energy companies allow, though?



Mine does. I only discovered this recently.


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## kabbes (Jul 10, 2022)

planetgeli said:


> Mine does. I only discovered this recently.


Gosh, I’m guessing this is not a widely known thing.


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## platinumsage (Jul 10, 2022)

Most only allow it within a range, or require approval after you’ve submitted the amount. Apparently not cupid_stunt’s though.


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## hitmouse (Jul 10, 2022)

I'd been feeling a bit ambivalent about it, but am now considerably more on board after reading the discussion on this thread. (For what it's worth, which is not much since I'm one of the few people lucky enough to have bills included in my rent, and my rent's going up but I don't think it'll manage to go up as fast as energy bills!)


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## LDC (Jul 10, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I'd been feeling a bit ambivalent about it, but am now considerably more on board after reading the discussion on this thread. (For what it's worth, which is not much since I'm one of the few people lucky enough to have bills included in my rent, and my rent's going up but I don't think it'll manage to go up as fast as energy bills!)



All this stuff is difficult isn't it? Like it has to work, _then_ it has to generalize and escalate beyond what it was intended to do. Both are unlikely given the world we live in, both happening one after the other is _very_ unlikely. (It also needs other stuff to happen alongside it...) But still, it's good to stay open to possibilities...


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## yield (Jul 11, 2022)

LDC said:


> All this stuff is difficult isn't it? Like it has to work, _then_ it has to generalize and escalate beyond what it was intended to do. Both are unlikely given the world we live in, both happening one after the other is _very_ unlikely. (It also needs other stuff to happen alongside it...) But still, it's good to stay open to possibilities...


LDC


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## hitmouse (Jul 14, 2022)

Novara interview:








						Could ‘Don’t Pay’ Pull It Off? | Novara Media
					

A new, viral campaign is encouraging people to cancel their direct debits if the government fails to act on the cost of living crisis. It’s a longshot, but the organisers fancy their chances. Sophie K Rosa reports.




					novaramedia.com


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## chainsawjob (Jul 14, 2022)

Haven't read the thread, but just signed up. Cheers for the prompt sojourner , it was on my to-do list


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## chainsawjob (Jul 14, 2022)

campanula said:


> I'm in and I have ordered my first lot of leaflets  (£7.69, inc. postage) and put my name down to campaign.


I have too (put my name down to campaign).


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## chainsawjob (Jul 16, 2022)

Ordered some stickers and leaflets.


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## geminisnake (Jul 17, 2022)

muscovyduck said:


> Even if you can't hold off paying indefinitely, just "forgetting" or being 'unable' to pay for a week or two could help the cause


I intend to wait til I get a final reminder for every bill til the prices come down.  Bastards used to give you a prompt payment discount, that disappeared and it's gotten worse ever since


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## geminisnake (Jul 17, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Long story, short, I have been well over-charged, and they continue to over estimate my usage despite having meter readings, it's with the ombudsman and due to be resolved by 21st. They think I am over £300 in debit, whereas I am actually around £700 in credit.
> 
> In June they put my DD up from £125 to £185, so I cancelled it & got given a deadline to set-up a new one, which I did for £125. After that payment was made, I get notice they are putting it up to £189, as soon as they did that, I cancelled it again, then set up a new one, but this time for only £1, which is due to go out on the 15th. After which I expect to hear they are putting it up again, so the game will continue.
> 
> So, the tip is, after cancelling the DD, set-up a new one for a silly amount, or if their system doesn't allow that, just cancel it the day before it's due go out, get another 10 notice period, rinse & repeat.



I can't alter FIL's DD with SSE/OVO, so it is getting cancelled shortly and they can fecking shove it if they think there will be a new one. I too am about to contact the ombudsman cos SSE have overetimated every feffing bill for the last 11 yrs despite readings being given regularly. I'm sick of them


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 17, 2022)

geminisnake said:


> I can't alter FIL's DD with SSE/OVO, so it is getting cancelled shortly and they can fecking shove it if they think there will be a new one. I too am about to contact the ombudsman cos SSE have overetimated every feffing bill for the last 11 yrs despite readings being given regularly. I'm sick of them



For me, the SSE's over estimating only started after OVO took over in Jan. 2020, 11 years is bloody nuts. 

I've just won my ombudsman case against OVO, it was easy enough to deal with, just takes time as they are so busy.


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## hitmouse (Jul 21, 2022)

They have an organising guide up now:








						Don’t Pay - Organisers Guidebook
					

________________________________ _Don’t Pay__Organisers Guidebook_   This document will be frequently updated and was last updated on 18 July 2022.  Check dontpay.uk for the most recent version.   _Don’t Pay__Organisers Guidebook_ The Problem Our Plan 1 Build support: 2 Gather a million   ple...




					docs.google.com
				




Look to be using telegram as their main channel:








						Dontpay.uk
					

We’re building a mass non-payment strike of energy bills starting on Oct 1st. Join us in building the strike! Dontpay.uk🔥




					t.me
				




Also have a map of where people are pledging:





						Activist Dashboard — Don't Pay
					

Live view of organisers signed up across the country




					dontpay.uk
				




Zoom meeting on July 28:








						Welcome! You are invited to join a meeting: Don't Pay - Welcome call for organisers. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the meeting.
					

Welcome! You are invited to join a meeting: Don't Pay - Welcome call for organisers. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the meeting.




					zoom.us
				




Also asking people to fill in this survey:








						Help build Don't Pay near you
					

We're hard at work on setting up tools and resources to help you build this campaign in your neigbourhood and with people you know.  But we want to know what you need. Answer any of these questions that you feel comfortable with.  If you have any questions, please let us know at info@dontpay.uk



					actionnetwork.org


----------



## AverageJoe (Jul 21, 2022)

Martin Lewis was talking about this









						Masses may stop paying energy bills in 'poll tax' moment, Martin Lewis warns | ITV News
					

Don't Pay UK is urging individuals to take action from October 1 if energy companies don't reduce bills to 'an affordable level'. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 21, 2022)

Martin Lewis was talking about this









						Masses may stop paying energy bills in 'poll tax' moment, Martin Lewis warns | ITV News
					

Don't Pay UK is urging individuals to take action from October 1 if energy companies don't reduce bills to 'an affordable level'. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com
				




Good. He reaches a lot of people.



> "We need the government to get a handle on that, because once it starts becoming socially acceptable not to pay energy bills, people will stop paying energy bills and you’re not going to cut everyone off.”


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## Rob Ray (Jul 22, 2022)

Good showing on GMB this morning, well done to Simon.


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## LDC (Jul 22, 2022)

Dead good that. A bunch of us in my area being put in touch with each other, stickers started to be seen as well.


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## Red Sky (Jul 23, 2022)

Been put in touch with people in my area. Quite a cross section.  They're really keen to get stuff happening.


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## chainsawjob (Jul 24, 2022)

I've signed up to be an organiser (waiting on stickers & posters arriving). There's a national zoom Thursday 28th 7pm, anyone else attending?

Also there's a Telegram thing for updates (I need to set up a Telegram account).

So far the map's not showing anyone else near me that's involved, I'll try and drum up some interest. I live in a village of about 2,000. Hopefully some folk I know will want to join in. It's good people are keen where you are Red Sky & LDC


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## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2022)

Galaxy brained take from Martin.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Galaxy brained take from Martin.



He at least outlines his views and the thinking behind them - even though i think him wrong on the non-payment front. And I'm not persuaded that a succession of riots over fuel will win the day. I think a great explosion of anger is coming in which fuel and food prices will play a part: if it comes we'll see how it plays out


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## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> He at least outlines his views and the thinking behind them - even though i think him wrong on the non-payment front. And I'm not persuaded that a succession of riots over fuel will win the day. I think a great explosion of anger is coming in which fuel and food prices will play a part: if it comes we'll see how it plays out


It's just thoughtlessly tossed out bollocks.  Everyone's too middle class and individualistic to do a boycott so we'll get them riot instead. Brilliant.


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## LDC (Jul 26, 2022)

Blah, blah, identity politics.... riot... middle class... meh. It's shit and lazy criticism, nothing worth thinking about in there tbh.

Saying what won the Poll Tax was the riots not the mass non-payment is just wrong isn't it? It was both, and there's no way that the former would have happened without the later. The non-payment local groups provided much of the groundwork for building up the movement that led to the riots, and then it provided a longer term support for the fall-out from them. Plus it gave people the feeling they weren't alone, built confidence, gave a mix of people stuff they could do, etc. All this calling non-payment individualistic bollocks is also just missing the point, it's an attempt to get away from that by a collective refusal. Anyway, I could go on...


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 27, 2022)

From an email I got:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

LDC said:


> Blah, blah, identity politics.... riot... middle class... meh. It's shit and lazy criticism, nothing worth thinking about in there tbh.
> 
> Saying what won the Poll Tax was the riots not the mass non-payment is just wrong isn't it? It was both, and there's no way that the former would have happened without the later. The non-payment local groups provided much of the groundwork for building up the movement that led to the riots, and then it provided a longer term support for the fall-out from them. Plus it gave people the feeling they weren't alone, built confidence, gave a mix of people stuff they could do, etc. All this calling non-payment individualistic bollocks is also just missing the point, it's an attempt to get away from that by a collective refusal. Anyway, I could go on...


You've gone on quite enough tbh. Local groups varied very much in a) when they were set up; b) their longevity; c) their politics and d) their effectiveness. I don't think there's the link you suggest between local groups and riots or between riots and local groups.

My first involvement with the poll tax post riot was a public meeting called to set up a local group, where from a packed hall only three remained to do the work, me, a stalinist and a Trot. So certainly where I lived at the time the riots didn't bring a ton of activists in. In Hackney where there was a big riot in front of the town hall (somewhere I have some pictures Fozzie Bear) there wasn't a longstanding group as there was in Haringey or Camden, perhaps because at the time half the population of the borough moved each year.

The only reason there was any support for the fallout from the 31.3.90 and 20.10.90 riots was tsdc, the trafalgar square defendants campaign, for which dave morris out of the mclibel 2 was a great force. I don't know of any support organised for people nicked in front of town halls, I never saw any information on the people jailed for it or discussion in anti-poll tax groups I was involved in. I don't think the information was ever gathered or acted on. If you know anything different I'd be very interested to know.

For me a great part of what toppled thatcher was the spring of poll tax riots. But what broke the poll tax was non-payment and the government decision to lower bills by £140 (£136 in Wandsworth) announced in March 1991. Although vat was put up 2.5% to pay for it. But at that point, when the decision to abolish was announced, you lost fuck loads of people from the apt movement. The swp had pulled put before that. But many areas hardly had local groups. I remember having a great list of London groups and phoning round them for London fight the poll tax and speaking to someone from Sutton. 

But many areas had a group more in name only. And although there were calls for an amnesty for poll tax non-payment and the debts to be written off that never happened. As time went on anti-poll tax groups dissolved even though court cases and bailiff action continued. In the final year of the poll tax being levied, 93/94, can't have been many groups supporting non-payment left. But it was years after that that council's stopped chasing the money.

It's always nice to see a big win. But the poll tax wasn't won on 31 march 90. It wasn't the riots that win it. It was the extent of opposition shown through non-payment and the way that in that year, 90/91, people refused to pay. 

So yeh Martin's called this one wrong for me. But it's also wrong to see local groups providing the impetus for the riots across the board and local groups providing support for the fallout after. Many local groups were short-term coalitions of activists and where Haringey became a solidarity group, moves to do the same in Camden foundered when only a few anarchists wanted to do that and almost all the Marxists were against it. But the role of militant and the swp deserves fuller investigation because for their own sectarian reasons they tried to undermine groups of other political hues where they couldn't control them.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jul 27, 2022)

Good discussion. Pickman's model there appears to have been support for people arrested at the riot outside Hackney Town hall from Hackney Community Defence Association. 

Obviously I agree with most people here that non-payment of the poll tax was a key factor as well as riots. 

Non-payment then could be made less individualistic through things like people gathering together to burn their bills, which happened in Clissold Park. (It’s harder to do this with an email or direct debit!)

And also regular street stalls where people could discuss what was happening.


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## Red Sky (Jul 27, 2022)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Good discussion. Pickman's model there appears to have been support for people arrested at the riot outside Hackney Town hall from Hackney Community Defence Association.
> 
> Obviously I agree with most people here that non-payment of the poll tax was a key factor as well as riots.
> 
> ...


These things are in the pipeline for Don't Pay I believe.

However as a campaign there's a hurdle to clear that wasn't there for the Poll Tax, which is convincing people that the price rises aren't natural and inevitable but rooted in profit.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> These things are in the pipeline for Don't Pay I believe.
> 
> However as a campaign there's a hurdle to clear that wasn't there for the Poll Tax, which is convincing people that the price rises aren't natural and inevitable but rooted in profit.


Just look over the channel! The pious words about inflation from Truss and sunak won't be worth much in the autumn if the great rise for energy comes in. That'll put some fire under prices. It's a political decision to allow the prices to rise so, no doubt influenced by the tories' friends in the energy sector.


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## Red Sky (Jul 27, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Just look over the channel! The pious words about inflation from Truss and sunak won't be worth much in the autumn if the great rise for energy comes in. That'll put some fire under prices. It's a political decision to allow the prices to rise so, no doubt influenced by the tories' friends in the energy sector.


I know this, it's feedback from talking to people.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> I know this, it's feedback from talking to people.


Yeh I haven't found the same hurdle and cannot always tell what you know


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## teqniq (Jul 28, 2022)

Herein lies the major part of the problem:









						British Gas owner Centrica profits increase five-fold as energy bills soar
					

Company reinstates dividend after suspending it for three years




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						Biden says US economic slowdown due to Fed inflation-fighting measures – as it happened
					

US president says growth affected by moves to tackle inflation as US enters technical recession




					www.theguardian.com
				




I get the impression from this that he is actually not given to hysteria but is actually genuinely worried:


----------



## WhyLikeThis (Jul 28, 2022)

The reasonable middle ground in this debate is to both organise in non-payment community groups spiced up with some old fashioned civil unrest.

When this level greed filters through to a critical mass of people unable to pay their bills it’s definitely going to kick off.


The spanner in the works is Patel’s newish anti-protest powers. What impact will they have?


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## A380 (Jul 28, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> The reasonable middle ground in this debate is to both organise in non-payment community groups spiced up with some old fashioned civil unrest.
> 
> When this level greed filters through to a critical mass of people unable to pay their bills it’s definitely going to kick off.
> 
> ...



Some,

But less that the fact that the police would be hard pushed to cope with protracted and dispersed disorder . Whilst the one in five cops disposed of by Cameron and May are ,ever so slowly being replaced, numbers are still way down. Also a workforce that in some places is  seeing the response function, so the initial police response,  at 70% (or in some places even 80% of officers with less than three years experience). The fucking about with rest days and shift patterns and overtime means far less of the new rozzers want to do public order training (why risk losing their one weekend off in five when they don't get paid anymore, just swapped for a Tuesday and Thursday six months later) besides, you need to be a least 40 now to have the right licence to drive the carriers (riot vans) and of course the agents of the state don't pay for people to go off and do the three day course to get the licence  - probably in case the cops that get it, resign and go off to drive mini-busses for more money...


Add into the mix that many senior cops don't want to risk their careers by going anywhere near public order command, where errors, lack of decision making  and bad luck can be seen immediately unlike if you focus on corporate change and engagement... and you have a position where quite a lot of smaller forces can't staff a command cadre rota...

Fold in fantastic PFI and other ace accountancy decisions meaning world class state of the art training rigs are sitting empty half the time whilst elsewhere riot rozzers are training by running round  and round the same six shipping containers on an airfield somewhere having old parquet flooring thrown at them by bored colleagues and it adds to the fun. Apparently

There are still public order trained cops and commanders of course,  but meeting the national mobilisation commitments is getting harder and doing it with experienced people is getting really hard.

The last two PMs probably had a more vicarial and personal hatred for the old bill than many  posters on on here and so tried to break it.  Bojo and Patel don't really care either way. If there is wide spread protracted disorder its not going to be pretty.

Apparently, many senior ex rozzers are well glad to be out of it all and living off their gold plated pensions...


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## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Herein lies the major part of the problem:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Martin is appealing to capitalism to solve capitalism. Shame.


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## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2022)

chainsawjob said:


> From an email I got:
> 
> View attachment 334648
> 
> ...


I'm on this zoom now, if anyone else is? Intro meeting for campaigners, 200 attending. 6,000 have signed up to the campaign so far.


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## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2022)

20,000 have signed up now and it's doubling in a week (must have misheard the 6,000 earlier).


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## ElizabethofYork (Jul 28, 2022)

Katie Hopkins is urging her fans to join!


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

Yeah on it. Slightly depressing number of 'Great Reset' loons. Way of the world now I guess...


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## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah on it. Slightly depressing number of 'Great Reset' loons. Way of the world now I guess...


Oh god, first person with a question was a crank. I went for a loo break.


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

I'm constantly shouting 'FUCK OFF' at the screen. Typed a load of messages then deleted as thought better just left unsaid. God people are insane.


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## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2022)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Katie Hopkins is urging her fans to join!
> 
> View attachment 334944


Yeah, they mentioned that. And said we're gonna have to be not left, not right, but united on a single issue.


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## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2022)

chainsawjob said:


> Yeah, they mentioned that. And said we're gonna have to be not left, not right, but united on a single issue.


Swallow your distaste basically.


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

chainsawjob said:


> Swallow your distaste basically.



I do find that hard.... I can cope with people with different ideas etc. I just wish they wouldn't try and bulldoze them into everything...


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

WHAT ABOUT THE MAGNA CARTA, let's get King John involved!


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## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2022)

Last thing the person organising said, was that the number of people signed up to the campaign had gone up by 2,00 during the last hour while the meeting's been on. 

I found that _quite_ good. Useful to know how it's gonna work, and hear some of the ideas people had (the ones that were sensible).


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## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2022)

People do like to take things off track, and blow their own particular trumpet, their own pet projects. Twas ever thus I suppose. Dunno why people don't agree to keep the aim narrow & focus on just achieving that. Instead of world peace or whatever


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

Good amount of people, and kept on focus by the main speaker, despite the best attempts of some! Any big thing is going to have a slightly odd element to it.


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## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

If Hopkins is involved I'd be worried. What's her angle? She dont care about poors, she's made a career insulting people worse off than she


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## cybershot (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What's her angle?


The same as always. Attention, and the sort of crowd that will lap it up. (no offence to those who back this idea here!  )


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## Karl Masks (Jul 28, 2022)

cybershot said:


> The same as always. Attention, and the sort of crowd that will lap it up. (no offence to those who back this idea here!  )


More than that tho, we all know her history of shit disturbance and her choice of media allies (didn't she work for fascist Gavin Macinnes'? Founder of the Proud Boys?)


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

She's not 'involved', she's just mentioned it on Twitter. Exactly because it is/will be popular and she's a parasitical grifter.


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

Generally it is going to be hard to stop the conspiracy theory, right wing types (rather than unaligned people with a mix of ideas), etc trying to assert control. Guess best way it prioritize local groups and work rather than national Zoom meetings where they thrive.


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## Red Sky (Jul 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> If Hopkins is involved I'd be worried. What's her angle? She dont care about poors, she's made a career insulting people worse off than she


She's not involved.  She's just talking about it.


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## Red Sky (Jul 28, 2022)

Thought it was a brilliant meeting. Massive cross section.  Real energy. People really want to do this.

Yes, keeping a lid on the eccentrics is going to be a challenge but they were getting shouted down in the chat.


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## LDC (Jul 28, 2022)

Gets a mention in relation to the Ukraine invasion and rising energy prices on Simon Pirani's blog here:









						War and climate justice: a discussion
					

OpenDemocracy yesterday hosted a useful, and sobering, discussion about the war in Ukraine and the fight for climate justice, with Oleh Savitsky (Stand with Ukraine and Ukraine Climate Network), An…




					peopleandnature.wordpress.com


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## chainsawjob (Jul 31, 2022)

Ooo, exciting, the map of where campaigners are based now has 2 showing in my area, it's not just me on my lonesome anymore! And since I signed up, it's jumped from 5,000 odd to 14,000 odd. 

Following the zoom meeting last Thursday, I've set up a Telegram chat for my area (as they suggested people do), and given it to the organisers, so anyone who signs up can be given it and get in touch with others in their area. I spoke to another guy from Hampshire on the zoom, but he was the other end of the county to me.


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## LDC (Jul 31, 2022)

chainsawjob said:


> Ooo, exciting, the map of where campaigners are based now has 2 showing in my area, it's not just me on my lonesome anymore! And since I signed up, it's jumped from 5,000 odd to 14,000 odd.
> 
> Following the zoom meeting last Thursday, I've set up a Telegram chat for my area (as they suggested people do), and given it to the organisers, so anyone who signs up can be given it and get in touch with others in their area. I spoke to another guy from Hampshire on the zoom, but he was the other end of the county to me.



Yeah, similar, my small area (town of 15,000) has gone from 4 to 16 signed up, but bit unclear to me with the map if that's just organisers or people signed to not pay? Must be the later right?






						Activist Dashboard — Don't Pay
					

Live view of organisers signed up across the country




					dontpay.uk


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## danski (Jul 31, 2022)

Do you have to sign up to do this?


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## LDC (Jul 31, 2022)

danski said:


> Do you have to sign up to do this?



No, you could just stop paying. But guess the point is partly to collectivize it so it feels like not just individuals doing it, the companies won't know who's involved. I think one of the side benefits of this is as so many people anyway are likely to stop paying this autumn/winter, or have problems paying, it'll be impossible for the energy companies to know who is doing it as part of the campaign, and who is doing it anyway because they're struggling but never have heard about the Don't Pay thing. That'll help build pressure on them even more.


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## kenny g (Jul 31, 2022)

danski said:


> Do you have to sign up to do this?


Nope. It is completely your choice at all times 😃


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## chainsawjob (Jul 31, 2022)

LDC said:


> Yeah, similar, my small area (town of 15,000) has gone from 4 to 16 signed up, but bit unclear to me with the map if that's just organisers or people signed to not pay? Must be the later right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, when I signed up there didn't seem to be anywhere to just pledge to do it/support it, only for signing up to be an organiser (just looked again, and afaict that's still the case  ). So I did that.


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## danski (Jul 31, 2022)

kenny g said:


> Nope. It is completely your choice at all times 😃


In case I wasn’t clear, I was meaning would it be detrimental in some way by not paying but also not signing up?
I realise there are benefits in being part of a group but I find such activities difficult.


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## LDC (Jul 31, 2022)

danski said:


> In case I wasn’t clear, I was meaning would it be detrimental in some way by not paying but also not signing up?
> I realise there are benefits in being part of a group but I find such activities difficult.



I think it'd only be detrimental to you really, like not being able to be more of a collective thing and get the support from that etc., but probably not in any massively significant way?


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## kenny g (Jul 31, 2022)

danski said:


> In case I wasn’t clear, I was meaning would it be detrimental in some way by not paying but also not signing up?
> I realise there are benefits in being part of a group but I find such activities difficult.


Not a problem. Completely understandable and just by the act of cancelling your DD you will have an impact.


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## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2022)

Can't quite believe how stratospheric this has gone. 

Been and leafletted CWU and RMT picket lines and there was already familiarity and support for the campaign.


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## chainsawjob (Jul 31, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Can't quite believe how stratospheric this has gone.
> 
> Been and leafletted CWU and RMT picket lines and there was already familiarity and support for the campaign.


Excellent.


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## BristolEcho (Jul 31, 2022)

I'm currently in a bit of a dispute with E.ON as they put up my direct debit when it didn't need to be.

My tarriff ends in October and I'm going to move. Do you think if I stop paying in October I might find it hard to move supplier? Might have to start in November.


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## BristolEcho (Jul 31, 2022)

BristolEcho said:


> I'm currently in a bit of a dispute with E.ON as they put up my direct debit when it didn't need to be.
> 
> My tarriff ends in October and I'm going to move. Do you think if I stop paying in October I might find it hard to move supplier? Might have to start in November.


Result they just gave me £10 credit on my account.


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## danski (Jul 31, 2022)

LDC said:


> I think it'd only be detrimental to you really, like not being able to be more of a collective thing and get the support from that etc., but probably not in any massively significant way?





kenny g said:


> Not a problem. Completely understandable and just by the act of cancelling your DD you will have an impact.


Thank you both


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## krink (Jul 31, 2022)

If I don't pay I'll be "cut off" after a day or two as I'm on prepay meters like a lot of us at the very bottom. But good luck to the direct debit crew I hope it works


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## LDC (Jul 31, 2022)

krink said:


> If I don't pay I'll be "cut off" after a day or two as I'm on prepay meters like a lot of us at the very bottom. But good luck to the direct debit crew I hope it works



Yeah, people on pre-pays are not going to be able to do it. Maybe one of the (much) longer term demands if it was successful with this would be for people to have their pre-pay meter removed and replaceed with a normal meter (if they wanted).


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## Rob Ray (Jul 31, 2022)

I wouldn't be surprised if abstracting to get around pre-pays rises through this period as well tbh. I mean the alternative is basically just "don't have electricity" and if there's going to be one serious cultural impact from Don't Pay as a campaign it'll be to bust the myth that these companies have a moral right to charge what they are.

On Hopkins, if she's sniffing around that's both a good and a bad sign I'd reckon. Good because people like her are very attuned to what's going places so they can glom on early. Bad because people like her glomming on will be an influence pushing both a jingoistic interpretation of the situation (eg. "this is all the foreigners' fault for owning our electric" rather than "companies all act like this when they have cartel power and shareholders to please") and attempting to discredit and oust left influences. Every chance she'll grab a GB News slot at some point saying "I supported Don't Pay to start with, then I realised it's a marxist plot" type shite as well.


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## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if abstracting to get around pre-pays rises through this period as well tbh. I mean the alternative is basically just "don't have electricity" and if there's going to be one serious cultural impact from Don't Pay as a campaign it'll be to bust the myth that these companies have a moral right to charge what they are.
> 
> On Hopkins, if she's sniffing around that's both a good and a bad sign I'd reckon. Good because people like her are very attuned to what's going places so they can glom on early. Bad because people like her glomming on will be an influence pushing both a jingoistic interpretation of the situation (eg. "this is all the foreigners' fault for owning our electric" rather than "companies all act like this when they have cartel power and shareholders to please") and attempting to discredit and oust left influences. Every chance she'll grab a GB News slot at some point saying "I supported Don't Pay to start with, then I realised it's a marxist plot" type shite as well.


At least she "supported it to start with" rather than starting it herself.  
This could easily have been a right wing project at the outset, aimed at Net Zero, the fracking ban, immigrants using all our gas etc.

Thank fuck someone picked up the ball before they did.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 31, 2022)

Very true.


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## LDC (Jul 31, 2022)

Yeah shit I hadn't thought of that either, sent a shiver down my spine. That would have been a massive disaster for us.


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## Red Sky (Jul 31, 2022)

James Frayne: A working-class revolt looms if the new Prime Minister doesn't tackle surging living costs | Conservative Home
					

When the final two candidates emerge, they have serious repair work to do. They must ensure they’re speaking to the public about cost-of-living issues.




					conservativehome.com


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 1, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> James Frayne: A working-class revolt looms if the new Prime Minister doesn't tackle surging living costs | Conservative Home
> 
> 
> When the final two candidates emerge, they have serious repair work to do. They must ensure they’re speaking to the public about cost-of-living issues.
> ...


That's clearly one Tory at least who is smart enough to guess which way the wind might be blowing. The comments are a different matter, the frothing loonspuds are out in force. There's one twonk who reckoned that during the lockdown, the Gvt should have given £94 per week UC (is that the actual figure you get?) to anyone without savings and the rest got nothing. All public employees should have been sent home without pay. Even some of the other loonspuds were pointing out that this may not be a great approach.


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## campanula (Aug 1, 2022)

Yeah, it's truly amazing how few of them imagine they have no reliance on the sort of services which are fundamental to running a country. I imagine there would be a Tory bloodbath if water and sewage suddenly vanished. One day of shitting in a bucket and dealing with the (ahem) output would focus the minds of a few Tory twats.
£94 is statutory sick pay - UC basic is even less.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2022)

campanula said:


> Yeah, it's truly amazing how few of them imagine they have no reliance on the public sector. I imagine there would be a Tory bloodbath if water and sewage suddenly vanished. One day of shitting in a bucket and dealing with the (ahem) output would focus the minds of a few Tory twats.


the sooner all of them are resident in victorian penitentiaries the better


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## Ranbay (Aug 1, 2022)

I wont be doing it.

/end


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## Elpenor (Aug 1, 2022)

campanula said:


> Yeah, it's truly amazing how few of them imagine they have no reliance on the sort of services which are fundamental to running a country. I imagine there would be a Tory bloodbath if water and sewage suddenly vanished. One day of shitting in a bucket and dealing with the (ahem) output would focus the minds of a few Tory twats.
> £94 is statutory sick pay - UC basic is even less.


£99.35 actually but the point stands - amongst lowest in Europe and my personal view is it should be paid at least Minimum wage (as should the flat rate of maternity pay etc)

The House of Lords pays £300/ day for turning up!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> £99.35 actually but the point stands - amongst lowest in Europe and my personal view is it should be paid at least Minimum wage (as should the flat rate of maternity pay etc)
> 
> The House of Lords pays £300/ day for turning up!


can't help thinking the legislative process would be aided if they were paid £305 for staying away


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 1, 2022)




----------



## kabbes (Aug 1, 2022)

campanula said:


> Yeah, it's truly amazing how few of them imagine they have no reliance on the sort of services which are fundamental to running a country. I imagine there would be a Tory bloodbath if water and sewage suddenly vanished. One day of shitting in a bucket and dealing with the (ahem) output would focus the minds of a few Tory twats.
> £94 is statutory sick pay - UC basic is even less.


This is the thing that always gets me about them running down the NHS. Private medical cover only gets you so far — for anything major, like cancer, you tend to be back in the NHS. And if you need an ambulance or other emergency medical attention, that’ll be the NHS.  And private medical firms get a lot of their infrastructure from the NHS anyway. So in the end, these twats are as dependent on a good NHS as everybody else is. Why the fuck aren’t they prioritising it for their _own_ sake as much as anybody else’s?


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 1, 2022)

The younger ones think they'll never die. The older ones are angry about it but would rather blame the shibboleths they've been presented with like immigrants, or State bureaucracy stymieing reforms that would make a part-private NHS more efficient. The rich ones correctly reckon they can pay either in the UK or elsewhere for preferential treatment.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Aug 2, 2022)

Ranbay said:


>




This is great, let's hope some folks from DPUK pick up on this as it would be good to have more info on what to do re: red letters and credit rating risks. 

I used to work for an gas and leccy company in a call centre, worst job I've ever had as I was answering calls to people getting red letters through their doors, many of whom just couldn't pay and were desperate. 

The bit in the video about complaints is spot on, it really wouldn't take that many more complaints than what they're already receiving to overwhelm the system. The call centres are overstretched as it is and staff morale in those places is always low.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 2, 2022)

Ranbay said:


>




Nice one. Finally Tik Tok is useful for something.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 2, 2022)

kabbes said:


> This is the thing that always gets me about them running down the NHS. Private medical cover only gets you so far — for anything major, like cancer, you tend to be back in the NHS. And if you need an ambulance or other emergency medical attention, that’ll be the NHS.  And private medical firms get a lot of their infrastructure from the NHS anyway. So in the end, these twats are as dependent on a good NHS as everybody else is. Why the fuck aren’t they prioritising it for their _own_ sake as much as anybody else’s?



They're expecting private healthcare to grow as public healthcare is run down. There'll be a bare minimum version for the plebs, something broadly equivalent to what they used to get for free for middle class folk with insurance; and then a top tier for the rich. The top tier will probably be no better than the NHS was in its prime in terms of actual care, but it'll have more bowing and scraping, comfier beds and, crucially, most people will have no chance of accessing it.

I honestly think other people not having things motivates the rich more than the prospect of having things for themselves.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 2, 2022)

I realise this sounds like a bit of a made-up start to a post, but today I found myself chatting with someone who works in debt collection for an energy company, and he was saying that energy (and water) companies aren't allowed to disconnect customers, all they can do is switch them over to pre-payment meters. Is this correct/something that's widely known?


----------



## MickiQ (Aug 2, 2022)

Surprised you didn't know that but yes they can't disconnect as in just go and turn you off completely, The great thing about pre-payment meters (from the companies point of view) is that the punters effectively disconnnect themselves. 
The pre-payment meters are set to charge at a higher rate until the debt is settled though.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 2, 2022)

Some constructive criticism


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 3, 2022)

Threshers_Flail said:


> This is great, let's hope some folks from DPUK pick up on this as it would be good to have more info on what to do re: red letters and credit rating risks.
> 
> I used to work for an gas and leccy company in a call centre, worst job I've ever had as I was answering calls to people getting red letters through their doors, many of whom just couldn't pay and were desperate.
> 
> The bit in the video about complaints is spot on, it really wouldn't take that many more complaints than what they're already receiving to overwhelm the system. The call centres are overstretched as it is and staff morale in those places is always low.




I worked the British Gas debt line in the 90's was fucking shite.... however what was funny at the time you could hear them when on hold


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 3, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I realise this sounds like a bit of a made-up start to a post, but today I found myself chatting with someone who works in debt collection for an energy company, and he was saying that energy (and water) companies aren't allowed to disconnect customers, all they can do is switch them over to pre-payment meters. Is this correct/something that's widely known?



They can't cut you off if you have kids and various other things, they in most cases will get a court order and come and swap the meter for pre payment type.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 3, 2022)

Stickers also available on the site.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 3, 2022)

I hope that this campaign is successful but I am also concerned that it might put vulnerable people at risk. Also, this has been compared to the times of the poll tax - but alot has changed since then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I hope that this campaign is successful but I am also concerned that it might put vulnerable people at risk. Also, this has been compared to the times of the poll tax - but alot has changed since then.


I'll tell you what puts vulnerable people at risk and that's the bloody energy prices. People on prepay meters obviously can't really join in, and vulnerable people with meters will be making choices between food and fuel. And the whole nonpayment thing's for them, in solidarity with them, as much as anyone else


----------



## teqniq (Aug 3, 2022)

Petition: Nationalise Energy Companies
					

The Government needs to take back ownership of strategic energy assets.  It needs to accept that the Free Market has failed the energy sector, that it is in the national interest to renationalise our energy assets.  The Government must therefore renationalise all the UK energy assets.




					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 3, 2022)

I see the Don't Pay campaign is asking people not to be aggressive or unpleasant towards call centre workers at energy companies. That shows the right spirit.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 3, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> I see the Don't Pay campaign is asking people not to be aggressive or unpleasant towards call centre workers at energy companies. That shows the right spirit.


That’s good, never a reason to be unpleasant to folk in a call centre. Being nice isn’t hard - and if they’re helpful I usually put a compliment through, it may get them a voucher or something if they have a reward scheme


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 3, 2022)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

Ranbay said:


> View attachment 335869View attachment 335870


A million households? I doubt it. Anyway you'll get more people forced into it now Ofgem confirms energy price cap to be updated every three months


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2022)

Elpenor said:


> That’s good, never a reason to be unpleasant to folk in a call centre. Being nice isn’t hard - and if they’re helpful I usually put a compliment through, it may get them a voucher or something if they have a reward scheme


That shows a good spirit


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 4, 2022)

Enough is enough: this winter I will be refusing to pay my energy bills | Christopher
					

Tens of thousands of Britons have made a pledge to the Don’t Pay campaign. It’s a last resort, but we’ve no other choice, says Christopher (a pseudonym), 75, and from South Yorkshire




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 4, 2022)

Which organisations are behind this campaign?


----------



## AverageJoe (Aug 4, 2022)

Read the thread


----------



## LDC (Aug 4, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I hope that this campaign is successful but I am also concerned that it might put vulnerable people at risk. Also, this has been compared to the times of the poll tax - but alot has changed since then.



Nobody is forced to do it if they are vulnerable or feel like they can't/shouldn't. Unless you mean people that are very vulnerable and lack capacity to make the decision to do it or not in some way? And of course lots has changed, people have made some comparisons with the Poll Tax, but nobody is saying it's the same nor suggesting it's happening in the same context are they?



AmateurAgitator said:


> Which organisations are behind this campaign?



No organisations. Lots of these kind of questions are answered on the FAQ page here FAQs — Don't Pay


----------



## A380 (Aug 4, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> Which organisations are behind this campaign?


NATO; it's NATO's fault.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 4, 2022)

I heard it was a CIA op in league with the Great Reset.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 4, 2022)

It's David Icke, KLF and the Hunt Saboteurs Association. 

Banksy put up the money.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Aug 5, 2022)

I've started a Whatsapp group for my postcode, just me so far but we'll see!

 Anyone else looking to organise on this?


----------



## LDC (Aug 6, 2022)

Threshers_Flail said:


> I've started a Whatsapp group for my postcode, just me so far but we'll see!
> 
> Anyone else looking to organise on this?



Yup, started a local (postcode area) Whatsapp group as suggested on the website/emails, and then they send a joining link out to everyone else that filled in the 'organisers' box on the website. On the website 20 people are signed up, and so far 7 have joined using the link. To me the website is slightly unclear in the difference/process between signing up to be an 'organiser' and signing up to do the general thing. I think the numbers on the map are the former not the later? I suspect some people have signed up as organisers thinking they're just signing up to the pledge maybe, and that's why we have fewer people joining the Whatsapp than have signed up on the website?

We've got our first local meeting next week. There's been loads of interest and excitement already, people have a bunch of ideas and enthusiasm.

Also just been in a large town in the NW and there was a huge (3 tables and a gazebo and covered area) stall of conspiracy theory/British Lions for Freedom/FOTL stuff that was getting good attention from passers-by, and they had some stuff about energy bill increases and the cost of living all mixed in with the elites/Great Reset/Soros etc. Which as others have pointed out is a good reason for us to organise on this as it's going to be an area of conflict in the coming months, and if we don't provide a framework and some better ideas and politics then people like that will and when people look about for answers and a channel for their anger they'll end up with them and we'll lose a load more people to bonkers ideas and racist/right wing politics.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Aug 6, 2022)

Just five in my group so far, two are my housemates and the one is a mate who lives on my road, plus one random who's not messaged just yet! Only started it on Thursday so hopefully see a few more trickle in next week and then can pencil in a meeting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2022)

This from the mail Energy watchdog boss says people should NOT join Don't Pay movement


----------



## A380 (Aug 6, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> This from the mail Energy watchdog boss says people should NOT join Don't Pay movement





‘Hurrah for the blackouts!’


----------



## Ranbay (Aug 8, 2022)

Threshers_Flail said:


> I've started a Whatsapp group for my postcode, just me so far but we'll see!
> 
> Anyone else looking to organise on this?



No


----------



## LDC (Aug 8, 2022)

People that have signed up live counter now on the website Don't Pay (Sure there's a better name for it though.)


----------



## cybershot (Aug 8, 2022)

Talking about this on Radio 2 now Jeremy Vine show (from 9 minures into show if you listen on replay)


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 8, 2022)

Bosses are circling the wagons against Don’t Pay UK
					

One of the most notable things about Don’t Pay UK and its plan of getting a million people to cancel their direct debits on October 1st, as a way of pressuring for energy price reductions, has been…




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 8, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Bosses are circling the wagons against Don’t Pay UK
> 
> 
> One of the most notable things about Don’t Pay UK and its plan of getting a million people to cancel their direct debits on October 1st, as a way of pressuring for energy price reductions, has been…
> ...


Freedom should give itself a pat on the back..









						The People’s Price Cap
					

A woman in your area saved £££££s with anarchism today. Find out how.Dear Uncle Kropotkin,How the fuck am I going to pay my gas bill?TLDR: You’re notThe total absence of any kind of tax on th…




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 8, 2022)

Their campaign video makes me positive.


----------



## WhyLikeThis (Aug 8, 2022)

They need to look at the stickers they’re using. Modern stickers peel from the middle to stop edges curly up. Don’t Pay’s are sadly old school. Ones I’ve stuck up have started to curl up already.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> This from the mail Energy watchdog boss says people should NOT join Don't Pay movement



_Turkeys declare war on Christmas.

 _I am enjoying watching everyone on the right do all this free PR work for the don't pay thing. It's nice to be reminded that our enemies are, when you get right down to it, pretty fucking stupid. And right now, they're stupid and scared.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> They need to look at the stickers they’re using. Modern stickers peel from the middle to stop edges curly up. Don’t Pay’s are sadly old school. Ones I’ve stuck up have started to curl up already.


A bad workman...


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 11, 2022)

100k up


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 11, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> They need to look at the stickers they’re using. Modern stickers peel from the middle to stop edges curly up. Don’t Pay’s are sadly old school. Ones I’ve stuck up have started to curl up already.


Not the latest batch.


----------



## LDC (Aug 11, 2022)

WhyLikeThis said:


> They need to look at the stickers they’re using. Modern stickers peel from the middle to stop edges curly up. Don’t Pay’s are sadly old school. Ones I’ve stuck up have started to curl up already.



If that's all you can find to moan about we're onto a winner.


----------



## RainbowTown (Aug 11, 2022)

What are the options for managing skyrocketing energy bills this winter?
					

Explainer: The looming hardship is fuelling support for Don’t Pay UK campaign, but there are other approaches




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 11, 2022)

RainbowTown said:


> What are the options for managing skyrocketing energy bills this winter?
> 
> 
> Explainer: The looming hardship is fuelling support for Don’t Pay UK campaign, but there are other approaches
> ...


This is the counter attack. 

There's nothing in any of their proposals that solves the issue.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 12, 2022)

Sad not but entirely surprising to see Lynch and Dempsey are joining in – too middle class apparently.


----------



## NoXion (Aug 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Sad not but entirely surprising to see Lynch and Dempsey are joining in – too middle class apparently.



They've got a point though, if you're on a key meter then the Don't Pay campaign isn't really relevant. I've got a key meter and that's been a big factor in why I haven't paid this thread as much attention as the EIE thread. I think it's going too far to characterise their criticism as part of the counter attack.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 12, 2022)

NoXion said:


> They've got a point though, if you're on a key meter then the Don't Pay campaign isn't really relevant. I've got a key meter and that's been a big factor in why I haven't paid this thread as much attention as the EIE thread. I think it's going too far to characterise their criticism as part of the counter attack.


They are dismissing it as 'middle class' though, just because a lot of working class people have key meters. It seems to ignore that you've got to use the tools at your disposal, and yes it's a shame not everyone has that tool, but what's the alternative? The Enough is Enough campaign they are touting (and which I would love to be successful) has just announced their first big move - a series of 'rallies' across the country. What is the lever of power they are pulling on here? It's non-existent. I'd have more sympathy with their criticism if they had more (beyond striking, which is also not available to everyone) to offer themselves.


----------



## campanula (Aug 12, 2022)

I delivered all my leaflets (in the freaking heat too). Have not really considered what's App groups cos I can't actually pledge not to pay (pre-payment metre) and I am also a bit thick...when it comes to tech stuff. I had no fucking idea what that bar-code-y thing was on my leaflets and dreaded being asked about it. My youngest took a bunch to put in the shop at his work and has printed up a few much larger ones and has plastered them around his workshop. Afraid that's probably the limit to my involvement.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 12, 2022)

It also ignores that most working class people aren't on pre-paid – 15% of the public, which means it's not the norm in C2DE households let alone if you include C1/B (ie. his actual constituency). And I do wonder exactly how Dempsey, a man on 3X the average wage, social class A, is one of them. Like I've got no problem with him talking about his personal history, but pretending he's still living it so he can have a go at some perceived rivals to the latest union campaign is a bit weak. 

Plus it's really a bit irrelevant that only part of the public can join in as far as leverage goes – if every campaign only functioned with everyone involved the RMT would never have a strike mandate. It's worth looking for ways to get involvement from and support to both pre-paid and smart meter users, but the strategy is to go after a perceived weak point.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 12, 2022)

campanula said:


> I delivered all my leaflets (in the freaking heat too). Have not really considered what's App groups cos I can't actually pledge not to pay (pre-payment metre) and I am also a bit thick...when it comes to tech stuff. I had no fucking idea what that bar-code-y thing was on my leaflets and dreaded being asked about it. My youngest took a bunch to put in the shop at his work and has printed up a few much larger ones and has plastered them around his workshop. Afraid that's probably the limit to my involvement.


The QR code will just be a link to their website - most smartphones can scan it.


----------



## chilango (Aug 12, 2022)

I noticed some murmurings from certain quarters on Twitter taking this "middle-class" line. 

Wasn't impressed.

Also yet to be impressed by the EIE alternative they're touting. I've signed up, but there's no apparent way to take action except wait for the 'tops' to call something.

That may change.


----------



## LDC (Aug 12, 2022)

chilango said:


> I noticed some murmurings from certain quarters on Twitter taking this "middle-class" line.



It's lazy and inaccurate criticism. I'd expect it from some of the super-uber-idproles, but had hoped better from more sensible people. Maybe inevitably they'll be some early days grumbling, but hopefully it'll sort itself out in the coming weeks and working along similar lines on slightly different but complimentary areas will happen.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Sad not but entirely surprising to see Lynch and Dempsey are joining in – too middle class apparently.


Bit of a broadside aimed at the campaign really, given that this is clearly a scripted session. 

Hopefully just a bit of Idprole silliness.


----------



## LDC (Aug 12, 2022)

Especially lazy and not very self critical given I bet that their only contact is probably reading and listening to the media reports and maybe looking at the Don't Pay website rather than having been part of any of the discussions about the ideas behind it etc. or being involved in any local organising.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 12, 2022)

LDC said:


> Especially lazy and not very self critical given I bet that their only contact is probably reading and listening to the media reports and maybe looking at the Don't Pay website rather than having been part of any of the discussions about the ideas behind it etc. or being involved in any local organising.


Sadly I think it's a bit more calculated and sectarian than that.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Sad not but entirely surprising to see Lynch and Dempsey are joining in – too middle class apparently.


I didn't hear them mention middle class once.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I didn't hear them mention middle class once.


Then you didn't watch it.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Then you didn't watch it.


timestamp?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> timestamp?


42 minutes in (ish)


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 12, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> 42 minutes in (ish)


fair enough. Mick does say "it's a slightly middle class concept, cancel your direct debit, write an angry letter"
in the context of talking about those on prepay/keys who can't afford to participate. 

They aren't slagging them off either, so I'm unclear as to what the greater issue here is, even though you are correct


----------



## smokedout (Aug 12, 2022)

I think it's partly sectarian but also one of the problems with large bureacratic top down unions is that they don't really want to break the rules, which refusing to pay your bills kind of is.  Their members are often labour aristocracy, their leaders and top officials even more so and they seek to present themselves as the reasonable and respectable working class.  They may be being fucked over but they also recognise they have something to lose, so they will fight within the rules laid out but they don't want to end up in jail or something.

It's pretty galling hearing pro-working class voices raises shrill alarms about damaging credit ratings or not being to get mortgages when for millions of people that ship has long sailed.  And those are the people who are going to be hit hardest and this campaigns resonates because they simply are not going to be able to pay these bills so at least Don't Pay provides some cover and comradeship whatever else happens.  It was the same in the anti-austerity movement when the big unions just didn't get claimants, they didn't understand that for a lot of people it was a literal fight for survival and nothing was off the table in terms of tactics.  At times like these we need trade union bosses, if we have to have bosses, who are prepared to go to jail but the big unions are too much part of the machine to ever truly contemplate that kind of radicalism.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 12, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> fair enough. Mick does say "it's a slightly middle class concept, cancel your direct debit, write an angry letter"
> in the context of talking about those on prepay/keys who can't afford to participate.
> 
> They aren't slagging them off either, so I'm unclear as to what the greater issue here is, even though you are correct


Who is talking about "writing an angry letter " ? 

The only people who've written a letter so far are Enough is Enough , and it wasn't very angry.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

smokedout said:


> I think it's partly sectarian but also one of the problems with large bureacratic top down unions is that they don't really want to break the rules, which refusing to pay your bills kind of is.  Their members are often labour aristocracy, their leaders and top officials even more so and they seek to present themselves as the reasonable and respectable working class.  They may be being fucked over but they also recognise they have something to lose, so they will fight within the rules laid out but they don't want to end up in jail or something.
> 
> It's pretty galling hearing pro-working class voices raises shrill alarms about damaging credit ratings or not being to get mortgages when for millions of people that ship has long sailed.  And those are the people who are going to be hit hardest and this campaigns resonates because they simply are not going to be able to pay these bills so at least Don't Pay provides some cover and comradeship whatever else happens.  It was the same in the anti-austerity movement when the big unions just didn't get claimants, they didn't understand that for a lot of people it was a literal fight for survival and nothing was off the table in terms of tactics.  At times like these we need trade union bosses, if we have to have bosses, who are prepared to go to jail but the big unions are too much part of the machine to ever truly contemplate that kind of radicalism.


The RMT isn’t a large bureaucratic union , it’s probably one of the unions where the rank and file have a larger say .


----------



## smokedout (Aug 12, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> The RMT isn’t a large bureaucratic union , it’s probably one of the unions where the rank and file have a larger say .



As large and bureacratic unions go it's one of the better ones but they are closer in culture and structure to someone like the PCS than the CNT for example. They are part of the official respectable left, even if they are at the more militant end of it.  They don't break the law and they pay their bills, except poor Eddie with his key meter who doesn't have a choice.

My comments were aimed more generally at some of the left criticisms I've seen of Don't Pay though.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 12, 2022)

smokedout said:


> As large and bureacratic unions go it's one of the better ones but they are closer in culture and structure to someone like the PCS than the CNT for example. They are part of the official respectable left, even if they are at the more militant end of it.  They don't break the law and they pay their bills, except poor Eddie with his key meter who doesn't have a choice.
> 
> My comments were aimed more generally at some of the left criticisms I've seen of Don't Pay though.


Amazing he hasn't applied to have that swapped out.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2022)

smokedout said:


> As large and bureacratic unions go it's one of the better ones but they are closer in culture and structure to someone like the PCS than the CNT for example. They are part of the official respectable left, even if they are at the more militant end of it.  They don't break the law and they pay their bills, except poor Eddie with his key meter who doesn't have a choice.
> 
> My comments were aimed more generally at some of the left criticisms I've seen of Don't Pay though.


I get your drift . Obviously, we don't have CNT in the UK ( and no equivalent here in Portugal either )  , but imv  the RMT  is the nearest example of modern day syndicalism that I have come across.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 12, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Amazing he hasn't applied to have that swapped out.



Having visions of the negotiations with the rail companies being disrupted because someone had to nip out to the offie to get leccy.


----------



## Karl Masks (Aug 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Who is talking about "writing an angry letter " ?
> 
> The only people who've written a letter so far are Enough is Enough , and it wasn't very angry.


Did I misquote mick?


----------



## Wolveryeti (Aug 13, 2022)

Good luck to everyone doing this. A shitty situation to be in and government should be doing much more (I read Germany is spending 4x as much on energy support).

You should try and avoid being lumbered with a prepayment meter as a result however - they are mega shit and you will pay a higher rate for energy as well as going through all the faff of topping up.

This has some useful advice:









						Stop your energy supplier moving you to prepayment
					

If you owe money to your energy supplier, they might want to install a prepayment meter. Here are the situations where you can stop them doing this.




					www.citizensadvice.org.uk
				




Basically use protected circumstances if they apply and strongly emphasise it's a case of cant pay rather than wont pay. Raise disputes to string out the process. The message will still get through.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 13, 2022)

Ideally there would be some local organising whereby those not paying direct debits put a bit of the money they would have spent on energy that month into a fund to help those on key meters. 

Then again that would be a nightmare to organise and could be open to abuse. Also it'd be withholding money from the energy companies only to give it to...the energy companies.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 20, 2022)

Anyone got any idea who this grassing Behind Labour prick is? I reckon they're something to do with London.


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2022)

Some great new stuff on the website today Don't Pay

Especially the demands, see 2 about key meters that's been raised on here a bit What we're striking for — Don't Pay

Also some good stuff on the risks and legality of it all.


----------



## Rob Ray (Aug 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Anyone got any idea who this grassing Behind Labour prick is? I reckon they're something to do with London.


Some management consultant who apparently got into Corbynism five years ago and thinks they're the vanguard of the resistance.

What they actually seem to be is a proper chin-out loonspud who's just discovered the anarchist set exists and are busily weaving this revelation into a Conspiracy to Destroy the Real Left featuring Paul Mason, the deep state, Plan C and er ... the well known "49A" anarchist bookshop and printer.

The latter of which sounds like they've conflated Freedom and 56A, but for all I know could simply have been thrown up by whatever magic roundabout is going on in their head...


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## hitmouse (Aug 21, 2022)

Ah yeah, I was curious about the claim to have done something with "obscure elements of Solfed in 2008", but thinking about it that might just be an exceptionally rare attempt at stolen valour? I don't think I'd ever encountered the anarchosyndicalism equivalent of a walt before but suppose this might be it.


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## AmateurAgitator (Aug 21, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Stop paying rent is what's really needed.


I'd like to think I could do that, especially as my bills are included in my rent, but I'm sure I would just get evicted and end up homeless.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Aug 21, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I'd like to think I could do that, especially as my bills are included in my rent, but I'm sure I would just get evicted and end up homeless.


Well no a lone strike wouldn't be a good idea. Would need to be a particular street/postcode etc. I had thought Living Rent up in Scotland had organised rent strikes but after not very extensive googling I guess it must have been Gordon Maloney just shouting for one on fb. I'm gonna join living rent this week  and sincerely hope that it leads to rent strikes one day.
Just building a bit of positivity around fantasy rent strikes on the thread guys


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## Red Sky (Aug 21, 2022)

1 in 7 already up for canceling direct debits. 70% aware of the campaign. 









						Fears of a winter debt crisis with 1.7m poised to cancel direct debits to energy companies
					

Which? and Citizens Advice have called for new Government help - and warned consumers that rash decisions could damage their credit in future




					inews.co.uk


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## smokedout (Aug 25, 2022)

Plot twist.


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## chilango (Aug 25, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Anyone got any idea who this grassing Behind Labour prick is? I reckon they're something to do with London.


Wow. Just read through some of their tweets.

Utter bollocks btw.


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## hitmouse (Aug 25, 2022)

chilango said:


> Wow. Just read through some of their tweets.
> 
> Utter bollocks btw.


Yeah, definitely a fantasist, but seems like the kind who has no issue with providing (flimsy) material for right-wing media hitjobs.


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## hitmouse (Aug 26, 2022)

Anyway, here's some Don't Pay stuff for today - online, London and Glasgow:








						Digital Actions for 26th August (and beyond!) — Don't Pay
					

Struggling to make it out to protests or outreach events on the national day of Don’t Pay action on August 26th? Or want to do more from home? Here’s some actions you can do remotely to help support the campaign and challenge Ofgem’s announcement of the price hike.




					dontpay.uk


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## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2022)

Don't Pay day of action roundup:








						Day of Action 1: No one cold or hungry this winter — Don't Pay
					

As Ofgem hiked the energy price cap by a massive 80% on Friday, Don’t Pay groups across the country came together with a clear message: no one cold or hungry this winter!




					dontpay.uk
				




Doing a London demo next week:


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## Calamity1971 (Aug 30, 2022)

Eie live now.


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## LDC (Aug 31, 2022)

Excellent new video from Don't Pay.


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## Red Sky (Aug 31, 2022)

LDC said:


> Excellent new video from Don't Pay.



I like it but the soundtrack is a bit Koynasquatsii


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## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2022)

LDC said:


> Excellent new video from Don't Pay.



What on earth does reclaim the energy commons mean ?


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## LDC (Aug 31, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> What on earth does reclaim the energy commons mean ?



Energy produced by us, taken by capitalists, and then sold back to us for profit.

I admit it's a bit of a niche way of framing it, but it's not a wildly complex or controversial way of talking about it. I had nothing to do with the video btw.


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## The39thStep (Aug 31, 2022)

LDC said:


> Energy produced by us, taken by capitalists, and then sold back to us for profit.
> 
> I admit it's a bit of a niche way of framing it, but it's not a wildly complex or controversial way of talking about it. I had nothing to do with the video btw.


Ta. Never heard of  it ., made me wonder how many people had.


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## LDC (Aug 31, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> Ta. Never heard of  it ., made me wonder how many people had.



Slightly less than not very many at all?! It's not the language I would use, it's a bit common in the autonomist type scene.


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## hitmouse (Sep 1, 2022)

LDC said:


> it's a bit _*common*_ in the autonomist type scene.


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## chilango (Sep 1, 2022)

Tbf whilst it's current political use is quite niche (though its  been kicking around for at least 30 years ime.) plenty of people will be familiar with both the word and the concept if they've lived near "a common".


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## Louis MacNeice (Sep 3, 2022)

Public ownership probably wouldn't need explaining and would do the job.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## chilango (Sep 3, 2022)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Public ownership probably wouldn't need explaining and would do the job.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Yeah.

Though to be fair I can see, and share, the desire to shift the vocabulary used.


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## bcuster (Sep 7, 2022)




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## Ĝasper (Sep 7, 2022)

Calamity1971 said:


> Eie live now.


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## Ĝasper (Sep 7, 2022)

Power to the people, who spoke at eie Glasgow rally. Pamphlet on their website discouraging non payment.


			Home


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 7, 2022)

TLDR: Stepchange by the way can't actually deal with energy debts people will have this coming winter because they will calculate that you can't afford to put a debt payment plan in place, so your only options would be a payment holiday (lol, wait three months and then the price cap goes up again!) or bankruptcy- well to be quite honest I will probably declare myself bankrupt soon but i have managed to put DPP in place by just fudging my figures at present.

- there are probably other options that i have forgotten and please do contact stepchange post haste if you need to, but this is a basic run down of the situation we are in now, that I was already in at the start of this year. 

Any website claiming to be able to help you with high energy bills is really bullshitting at this point aren't they? You either have the money to pay it, or you really really don't. In the latter scenario, what possible harm could come from at least politicising your inability to pay?


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## Ĝasper (Sep 8, 2022)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Any website claiming to be able to help you with high energy bills is really bullshitting at this point aren't they? You either have the money to pay it, or you really really don't. In the latter scenario, what possible harm could come from at least politicising your inability to pay?


I completely agree with you. Some of the top table EIE speakers aren't seeing it that way though. Which is.... "interesting". This pamphlet argues "Unlike other mass non-payment campaigns of the past (e.g., the
Poll Tax), there is not yet any organised campaign of solidarity to protect those who do not pay their energy bills." Is that a blindspot for Dont Pay, or is this just blatant sectarianism from the full timers?


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## LDC (Sep 8, 2022)

Ĝasper said:


> I completely agree with you. Some of the top table EIE speakers aren't seeing it that way though. Which is.... "interesting". This pamphlet argues "Unlike other mass non-payment campaigns of the past (e.g., the
> Poll Tax), there is not yet any organised campaign of solidarity to protect those who do not pay their energy bills." Is that a blindspot for Dont Pay, or is this just blatant sectarianism from the full timers?



It's clearly sectarianism now tbh.


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## Brainaddict (Sep 8, 2022)

Seems the strategy after Truss's announcement is just to say it isn't enough support and press on. Which is fair enough, but in reality I wonder if the announcement will take some of the momentum out of it.


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## HoratioCuthbert (Sep 8, 2022)

Ĝasper said:


> I completely agree with you. Some of the top table EIE speakers aren't seeing it that way though. Which is.... "interesting". This pamphlet argues "Unlike other mass non-payment campaigns of the past (e.g., the
> Poll Tax), there is not yet any organised campaign of solidarity to protect those who do not pay their energy bills." Is that a blindspot for Dont Pay, or is this just blatant sectarianism from the full timers?


Just had a pal speaking to me about this, their group in Edinburgh that had run a care home  campaign had tried reaching out to EiE but that "they quite clearly don't want grassroots". Hmm.


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## LDC (Sep 26, 2022)

New posters for windows and flyposting and new leaflets now arriving for folks. Looking great I think.


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## hitmouse (Sep 26, 2022)

List of events here:








						1 October Day of Action - find your nearest event — Don't Pay
					

Everyone can help make this Day of Action a powerful moment in our campaign – it's about being visible in the communities we live in. Find out about your local Don't Pay event, get out on the streets and tell the government we won't pay for their profits!




					dontpay.uk


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## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 2, 2022)

.


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## LDC (Oct 14, 2022)

Revealed: E.ON lobbied Tories to cut tax for energy firms
					

The UK’s biggest energy supplier also felt threat from Don’t Pay UK was ‘existential’, exclusive documents reveal




					www.opendemocracy.net
				




'The warnings came as growing numbers of people threatened to “strike” from paying their spiralling energy bills. The “Don’t Pay” campaign had originally aimed to enlist a million customers who would pledge not to pay their bills when prices increased in October.

Documents now reveal how worried E.ON was about the campaign, saying it was “existential for the sector. A million customers cancelling their direct debits on 1 Oct means a c£265 million loss per month across the energy retail sector meaning a c£45m loss per month for E.ON alone"…'.


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## fucthest8 (Oct 14, 2022)

LDC said:


> Revealed: E.ON lobbied Tories to cut tax for energy firms
> 
> 
> The UK’s biggest energy supplier also felt threat from Don’t Pay UK was ‘existential’, exclusive documents reveal
> ...



I've been saying to my local group that as winter bites and people have to start spending on heating - or choosing not to - we'll have reason to go back out and talk to our community. Having reports like the above to show people will be a great way to demonstrate that more pressure could get more results. Ta for posting.


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## hitmouse (Oct 19, 2022)

Don’t Pay Took Down Kwasi Kwarteng | Novara Media
					

We should be talking about the campaign's pivotal role in sending the government into a tailspin, argues Keir Milburn.




					novaramedia.com
				






> Recently uncovered documents have revealed that the threat the campaign presented was pivotal in forcing the Truss government into an energy price guarantee costing £150 billion over the next two years. That commitment was so big it made the rest of the government’s programme impossible to deliver under current fiscal conditions. Kwarteng’s decision to nonetheless push ahead led to his fall. The prime minister is soon likely to follow, and the Conservative party has itself been thrust into an existential crisis.
> 
> 
> The long and the short of it is this: Without the Don’t Pay campaign Kwarteng would still be chancellor and the Tories would not be trailing by 30 points in opinion polls...
> ...


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> A bad workman...


Is usually knackered from doing his 2nd job in order to make ends meet?


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2022)

smokedout said:


> At times like these we need trade union bosses, if we have to have bosses, who are prepared to go to jail but the big unions are too much part of the machine to ever truly contemplate that kind of radicalism.



Thats some neck attacking labour union representatives putting their heads above the parapet as public figures from folk ‘wanting to remain anonymous’ themselves. I wonder what the job prospects are for a formerly imprisoned general secretary of a militant TU. 
Do you suggest trade unions don’t have a public face? I think Lynch’s recent media performances have done more for class politics in the UK than any of the various groupsicles have over the last two decades. 
Equally odd is that Don’t Pay aren’t even suggesting a strategy of imprisonment on their website. So it just appears to be a generic swipe at unions being hierarchical when the RMT don’t even fit that mould.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2022)

smokedout said:


> Plot twist.



Oh no! Some of the ‘bosses’ support you. What a dilemma!


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## Ĝasper (Nov 7, 2022)

They're striking on 1st December


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## ska invita (Nov 7, 2022)

Momentum is lost I feel


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## hitmouse (Nov 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Momentum is lost I feel


To be fair, it seems to me like they're still doing regular outreach work, which is something.


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