# Poll Tax riots - 15 years on



## Divisive Cotton (Apr 1, 2005)

Unless I've done my maths incorrectly, it is about now 15 years ago that the poll tax riot happened.
So go on then, give us a war story from the day itself...

(I know that Past Caring has a good one, but don't think he go into details even now  )


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## Main Street (Apr 1, 2005)

15 years yesterday, and 116 years yesterday since the formation of the GMB, and I think the Jesus and Mary Chain played Brixton Academy too, 15 years ago yesterday


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## nino_savatte (Apr 1, 2005)

I think it's time we got rid of Council Tax: it's the same tax with a different name and a slightly different feel...that's all.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2005)

there's a lot i won't post up about the day, even now, but a couple of things stand out.

1) i was chased by a cop up the haymarket about halfway through the riot, leapt over a fence, the cop's baton came down by my hand and left a mark. he went off to look for easier pickings, and i looked up to see a well-dressed couple in their sixties, bloke with a blazer with a badge on the pocket. his wife says "what's going on here?" i looked about, and said "a riot?". she said, they can't do that, they're making us late for the theatre!

2) i was on my own when i got to kennington, and got chatting to some punks from manchester, who were on about fruit liberation, which seemed to consist of shoplifting fruit.

3) late on in the day i went back to trafalgar square and found a fairly sturdy 'nantwich against the poll tax' placard. i had it till i was walking up tottenham court rd, when some cop grabbed it off me (but the fighting was pretty much over and the police were pushing everyone north). all the windows of the music and electronics shops were smashed, but the tool shop on tottenham court road hadn't been touched. all over the west end, some shops were looted whilst other small businesses weren't touched - i passed an offie which had been done over with a small toyshop beside it which was left alone. anyway, there was a couple on tottenham court road, and the bloke said to his girlfriend "i saw a walkman i want back there, let's kiss in the doorway till the cops have gone past, then go back and get it".



a fucking top day out!


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## Main Street (Apr 1, 2005)

I have few regrets but missing that day is one of them...and I was only 40 mins by tube away.

hmmmm


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## Louis MacNeice (Apr 1, 2005)

I remember being in the top of Whitehall when the uniformed police (as opposed to the riot police) got routed; it was a genuinely eye opening event. I also remember vividly a riot officer grabbing the woman I was with, and spitting in her face that 'you've had your fun now it's our turn'. It was an extraordinary place to be; by turns terrifying and exhilarating...there and then you knew it mattered.

Cheers - Louis Mac


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## Karac (Apr 1, 2005)

On the march -fucking huge-then went for a Chinese!
Came out of the restaurant-total mayhem-got crushed against a glass window by one police charge thought it was going to break.
Girlfriend at the time was going mental-slagging off all the rioters for throwing stuff-but we hadnt seen what had happened earlier till much later.


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## Stobart Stopper (Apr 1, 2005)

Bloody hell, is it really 15 years? Pig was there on duty that day. I was at work, got home and my mate rang to say they were rioting. No one had mobiles back then so I didn't know what was happening. He got home at about midnight, absolutely knackered.


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## Belushi (Apr 1, 2005)

I was on the demo in Peterborough, gutted when I got home and saw what I missed on the telly!


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## Ground Elder (Apr 1, 2005)

Rather shocked to realise that it was 15 years ago   Plenty of memories - arrived in Trafalgar Square to see some twat was standing on the roof of an abandoned police transit -  he chucked the blue light off it into the crowd, hitting a girl next to me smack on the head   At that moment the police charged and it kicked off. A rumour spread through the crowd that the plume of smoke we could see was the South African embassy (it turned out to be a portacabin). Some bloke with an electric guitar standing in the middle of all the chaos playing Anarchy in the UK. Met up with folk I knew from all over the country  

Agree with Louis - in turn terrifying and exhilarating.

Get PBP onto this thread so we can hear the other side


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## girasol (Apr 1, 2005)

I could barely speak English when it all happened but it was one of the first things I tried to follow in the news when I arrived in England...

I still don't understand the difference between Poll Tax and Council Tax though (apart from the name)... Anybody care to explain?


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 1, 2005)

Ground Elder said:
			
		

> Get PBP onto this thread so we can hear the other side



was the dunkin' donuts by charing cross open in them days?


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## Main Street (Apr 1, 2005)

Iemanja said:
			
		

> I could barely speak English when it all happened but it was one of the first things I tried to follow in the news when I arrived in England...
> 
> I still don't understand the difference between Poll Tax and Council Tax though (apart from the name)... Anybody care to explain?



Poll tax is a tax set by the individual borough or county in which you live. The amount of the tax is the same for every person regardless of their income or wealth.

The Council tax is again set by the individual borough or county but the amount of the tax depends on the type of property that you live in. Now on the following I am unsure - is the amount of the tax stipulated by the size of the property or against its market value? 
The council tax now I'm writing this doesn't sound like a great improvement on the poll tax and if I remember rightly the rate system before the poll tax was unpopular.

But the poll tax was really unfair - I was living with my family when it came in and all of sudden rather than the rates - we had four separate taxes. I knew there was a big no pay campaign, but there wasn't much of that in Edgware and most people I knew were paying. I resisted, received a summons, went to the local court house and bottled it, agreeing to pay what I owed in installments if I remember rightly.
I still remember the uppity clerk at the council offices where I went to pay the installments.

When I moved to Scotland, I remember seeing some great anti-poll tax grafitti and couldn't believe the amount of people who hadn't paid - the reverse of north west London.


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## Groucho (Apr 1, 2005)

Turning into Whitehall the police seperated the march so that those behind would be redirected. Most of my friends were rerouted. 

Zeppo, Groucho and (let's call him for reasons not related here) Shit4brains joined a sit down protest near Downing Street. Police horses moved in and caused a dangerous crush (the police barriers by Downing Street narrowed the road). People started chanting 'no police violence' but the cavalry continued to push the crowd against the barriers.  Shit4brains (Zeppo's partner) passed out, either because of the crush or out of fear. Shit4brains was carried over the barriers for medical attention. Zeppo climbed over and was grabbed by police. An intervention from Groucho and legal observers stopped Zeppo from being arrested. 

The crush continued. Someone screamed. Several people went over. Others tried to restart the sit down protest but the horses walked over them. The demonstrators moved as one and it seemed as if the police horses were being pushed backwards (never seen a horse reverse before). Someone shouted 'we can win'. Placards started flying through the air and the police retreated. There then started a running battle.

A braided police hat flew through the air and landed in Groucho's hands. 

20 minutes of this and that and the demonstrators were fewer in number and on the run up Whitehall and into the Square. Lines of police blocked the way. Police started kicking the shit out of some of the demonstrators until a crowd from the Square succeeded in breaking the police ranks from behind. Groucho and others unknown were chased to Embankment Station. Plumes of smoke could be seen from the Square. 

An attempt was made to build a barracade by the bridge at Embankment and a police cavalryman was pulled off his horse, captured  and let go by a forgiving crowd of protesters. His fellow coppers having ridden off round the corner.

Groucho headed for Waterloo as agreed earlier and met Zeppo and Shit4brains who had recovered. No-one else made it. 

We headed for a pub for a rest. The landlord announced that police had advised that all curtains should be pulled and doors locked because the riot was coming this way. Groucho went upstairs to the gents and opened the window to look out. A crowd of protesters, still chanting 'no poll tax' ran up the street throwing bins into the road. Cavalry charged them down. Groucho picked up a plant pot and...and...cavalry down below...and..bottled it, realising I was upstairs in a locked building.

Later headed for Chinatown. Joined a Q. A surprising number of restaurant goers were carrying electrical equipment, musical instruments, you name it. Discussion in the Q confirmed that the police had completely lost control of the streets. Got a table and were joined by young French tourists carrying chinaware they had liberated from a shop window with no window. 

 I was at Wapping on May 3 '86 and again Jan 87. Then the police had simply terrified and brutalised. March 31 1990 was different. We had won. 

...and the stock market crashed, HMS Thatcher was dead in the water. Gotcha!


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## Main Street (Apr 1, 2005)

Great report, thank you.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 1, 2005)

I was fourteen and not up for a riot. Past my embarrassing Tory phase, though, so I did think "fuck yeah".


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## Hoxtontwat (Apr 1, 2005)

I was 10 and not there    . My housemate got expelled from the Brownies for being on it though


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## General Ludd (Apr 1, 2005)

I was 5.


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## Main Street (Apr 2, 2005)

Hoxtontwat said:
			
		

> I was 10 and not there    . My housemate got expelled from the Brownies for being on it though


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## Kaka Tim (Apr 2, 2005)

Some great reports on here - keep em coming.

I couldn't get there myself (  ). 

The riot in trafalger square came after there had been angry and rioutous protests agasint the tax up and down the country. (Hackney IIRC saw a full on riot when the council tried to set the tax rate)

I remember news reports of angry mobs attacking poll tax offices, cops and tory party offices in places like cheltenham and guildford.

I myself was at the colchester poll tax riot - the cops tried to stop 4000 demonstrators marching down the high street by blocking the road. Th etire demo did a mass detour through the shopping precent and descending on the poll tax office at the other side of town with puffiing and disorgansied plods running in a panic to try and get there before it  got trashed.

In particualr I remember two cops trying to stop about a 1000 people outside WH smiths - everyone was laughing in their face and one copper somehow lost his helmet (  ) which ended up as an improvised football. At this point the crowd lost all repsect and fear of the police and we were out of their contorl for the next six hours (tory office and poll tax office smashed up, bins, cans placards etc reigning down on cops etc).

This was what happened, I guess, on a much larger scale at trafalger square. The crowd suddenly stopped running and believed they could get the better of the police. On the 'people power' doc on bbc recently they showed the footage of the trouble at whitehall - and you can actually see the point where the police start to fall apart and triumphant roar goes up from the crowd - I think a post above referd to someone shouting 'we can win!'. It looked like a 'Ceaucescu Moment' and watching it made the hairs stand up on my neck. 
Becasue when people stop being scared of authority - it loses 90% of its power.

Watching the riots on TV was exhillirating - admist all the usual outrage, handwringing and pompous morralising it was clear that a huge blow had been struck against thatchers viscous ten year assault on the working classes. It was pay back for the miners, for wapping, for the beanfield and for every demo that had been attcked where the cops had enthusasitcally carried out tory policy via swinging batons, boots and beatings in the cells. 

Since the poll tax riot the cops have changed their tactics - I cant remember the last time they did a full on horse and baton charge agasint a large crowd - now its all snatch squads and kettles.


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## tollbar (Apr 2, 2005)

I was on the Glasgow demo.  40,000 or so, very orderly, couldnt believe the stuff going on in London.  The Glasgow demo was much more under the control of the STUC and the LP.

I always reckoned that the ferocity of the reaction to the Poll tax in places like Cheltenham, Exeter and Colchester was down to the fact that a lot of the English middle classes who had backed Thatcher over stuff like the Miners strike and the Falklands couldnt believe that she would shit on them as well.


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## bingiman (Apr 2, 2005)

I had a weird one.   As it kicked off I ran in front of the crowd and put my hand out in a gesture meant to calm things down   

hey, I was young and naive   

I was rushed from behind, arrested and charged with violent disorder.  The police said I was encouraging the crowd on, but six months later all charges were dropped 

I remember that Bow St police station was heaving with more and more people coming in the whole time and a queue to be processed that went out the door and into the yard

later that week journalists from the Daily Mail came round to my mum's house whose address they could only have got from the police 

I spent the next year working with the defendants campaign TSDC in their office helping arrange lawyers, attending trials and finding witnesses


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

Main Street said:
			
		

> Poll tax is a tax set by the individual borough or county in which you live. The amount of the tax is the same for every person regardless of their income or wealth.
> 
> The Council tax is again set by the individual borough or county but the amount of the tax depends on the type of property that you live in. Now on the following I am unsure - is the amount of the tax stipulated by the size of the property or against its market value?
> The council tax now I'm writing this doesn't sound like a great improvement on the poll tax and if I remember rightly the rate system before the poll tax was unpopular.
> ...


i was at barnet magistrates' the first day of the non-payment cases there, and that tout nally was there too (though i was young and innocent so i didn't have the go at him i would do if the same thing happened again ). 

there were a lot of people turned up, as i recall, and an old lady got hold of the millie megaphone and put them all to shame with her rant!


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## Groucho (Apr 2, 2005)

Kaka Tim said:
			
		

> I remember news reports of angry mobs attacking poll tax offices, cops and tory party offices in places like cheltenham and guildford.



I was in Guildford. A fairly small demo managed to blockade the Tory MP, David Howell, in the council offices. He was too scared to come out to face the 'mob' (as described in the local press, didn't know it was reported elsewhere)   His driver refused to go inside to help escort him because that was not what he was paid for.    He was finally escorted out by the police.

After which my landlord had a phone call from the 'Class Warfare Organisation' asking for me. Had a bit of trouble explaining that away to the Tory who took rent from me.

At the first Guildford non-payment cases I was quoted in the the local paper as saying "There are people who would rather go to jail than pay this tax." However, the local paper described me as 'another student'. I was a Civil Servant!

We filled a 53 seater coach to London for the March 31 demo. No mean feat for Guildford. The local Anarchists couldn't come because they had a pre-arranged Hunt Sab or something.

Edit to add: I forget the name of the quaint little Surrey village where they had an anti-Poll tax march but were stopped by police. I had a phone call from a very upset Grandmother who said she was better off as a result of the Poll Tax but her Grandchildren could not afford it, so she had attended the march. She said she had always voted Conservative but that now 'we live in a fascist state' and she would never vote for them again. She was frightened to get involved in campaigning because of the police (apparently they had been quite rough with the villagers) but wanted to know what she could do to help.


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## Donna Ferentes (Apr 2, 2005)

And they probably complained that the authoritarians in the Federation sabotaged it.

Wish I hadn't been here...


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> And they probably complained that the authoritarians in the Federation sabotaged it.
> 
> Wish I hadn't been here...


i didn't know you were a barnsley fan!


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## Donna Ferentes (Apr 2, 2005)

Eh?


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## Groucho (Apr 2, 2005)

Kaka Tim said:
			
		

> Since the poll tax riot the cops have changed their tactics - I cant remember the last time they did a full on horse and baton charge agasint a large crowd - now its all snatch squads and kettles.



Welling was pretty rough; a lot of cracked skulls and false arrests. (ANL/Unity demo against the BNP)


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

Groucho said:
			
		

> Welling was pretty rough; a lot of cracked skulls and false arrests. (ANL/Unity demo against the BNP)


no, it was just the unity demo against the bnp. there was a livingstone-sponsored demo of about 5,000 against the bnp in ctl london the same day. strangely, at welling the speeches all happened before the demo.

and someone got that swappie woman on the back of the head.


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## gawkrodger (Apr 2, 2005)

some quite good photos of the event here.
Unfortunetly i was only 8 at the time

http://www.exileimages.co.uk/HowardD/Prostest/Protest_15.html


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## Donna Ferentes (Apr 2, 2005)

Groucho said:
			
		

> Welling was pretty rough; a lot of cracked skulls and false arrests. (ANL/Unity demo against the BNP)


Yes, I remember that one very well. Loads of people, including myself, escaped by climbing over some railings into a park. So many, in fact, that the railings buckled under the weight. Next day it was reported that it had been damaged by protestors....


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## Groucho (Apr 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> no, it was just the unity demo against the bnp. there was a livingstone-sponsored demo of about 5,000 against the bnp in ctl london the same day. strangely, at welling the speeches all happened before the demo.
> 
> and someone got that swappie woman on the back of the head.



You mean Julie Waterson who was chief steward of the march and ANL convenor. The then editor of New Statesman had his finger broken by the police, and Holocaust survivor Leon Greenman got shuvved.

As Bernie Grant (who was on the ANL steering committee) said while we marched against the BNP HQ in our tens of thousands, ARA went to see the pigeons in Trafalgar Square. It was Livingstone and the TUC's sponsorship of the rival demo that allowed the police to demonise those attending the demo at Wapping.


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## Groucho (Apr 2, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> Yes, I remember that one very well. Loads of people, including myself, escaped by climbing over some railings into a park. So many, in fact, that the railings buckled under the weight. Next day it was reported that it had been damaged by protestors....



Wasn't that park a cemetory?  I remember the silhouetted forms of police cavalry on the hill, and riot police with shields and batons running between headstones, but this I saw froma distance. 

The trigger of that riot was that the police blocked both the route the march intended going down and the route the police insisted we should go down! Police had refused to agree or discuss the route with organisers until the last minute when they imposed a route away from the BNP HQ which they then blocked on the day leaving the march no-where to go, since backwards was blocked by the rest of the 60,000 or so protesters.


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## Donna Ferentes (Apr 2, 2005)

Groucho said:
			
		

> Wasn't that park a cemetery?


Yeah, could have been. I remember climbing over the railings rather better than I remember anything else.


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## Belushi (Apr 2, 2005)

Some twats on that demo decided to fight fascism by smashing up my mates garden


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

Groucho said:
			
		

> Wasn't that park a cemetory?  I remember the silhouetted forms of police cavalry on the hill, and riot police with shields and batons running between headstones, but this I saw froma distance.
> 
> The trigger of that riot was that the police blocked both the route the march intended going down and the route the police insisted we should go down! Police had refused to agree or discuss the route with organisers until the last minute when they imposed a route away from the BNP HQ which they then blocked on the day leaving the march no-where to go, since backwards was blocked by the rest of the 60,000 or so protesters.


er...

the trigger of the riot was when the police decided a few days before that the march would not go past the bnp hq. it was fairly obvious to anyone with eyes to see that it would kick off then. and it was on the local news, so it's not as though people didn't hear about it, from mates if not the telly.

yeh, on the day the filth blocked both routes, which didn't help matters, but if you didn't know prior to the day that it would kick off, then the riot cops everywhere on the day should have given it away.

and that cemetery wall was fucking crumbly!


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## Groucho (Apr 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> er...
> 
> the trigger of the riot was when the police decided a few days before that the march would not go past the bnp hq. it was fairly obvious to anyone with eyes to see that it would kick off then. and it was on the local news, so it's not as though people didn't hear about it, from mates if not the telly.
> 
> ...



Well, yes it is true that the police announced to the media days before the demo that there would be trouble. Police 'intelligence' (don't!) were aware of a group of organised troublemakers intent on causing mayhem. Er...they didn't know who they were or owt else.....


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

Groucho said:
			
		

> Well, yes it is true that the police announced to the media days before the demo that there would be trouble. Police 'intelligence' (don't!) were aware of a group of organised troublemakers intent on causing mayhem. Er...they didn't know who they were or owt else.....


a previous demonstration which had passed the bnp hq had ended in violence, so it wouldn't take a genius to suggest the same result if tens of thousands of angry people walked past it. 

but changing the route of the march arbitrarily made it fucking certain - also the way that they treated the holocaust survivors at the front of the march.


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## tollbar (Apr 2, 2005)

I remember the police and activists lined up on a hill and coloured smoke canisters flying about.  The Cemetary wall was down by the time I got to that bit. I also remember marching with Billy Bragg for a while who was helping carry the big unity banner.  I still have a photo of him there somewhere in the house, now the cunts supporting Oona King, Oh well.


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## Sid (Apr 2, 2005)

*Result*

With hindsight, and a fractured skull, I can only say I am amazed no one was killed. 100 000 rioters v 30 000 police going at it hammer an tong and no one ended up dead.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

Sid said:
			
		

> With hindsight, and a fractured skull, I can only say I am amazed no one was killed. 100 000 rioters v 30 000 police going at it hammer an tong and no one ended up dead.


3,000 police. 376 injured cops, iirc.

there's a hilarious bit in hansard, where there was a statement on the ptr fifteen years ago today. i'll see if it's on the internet...


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## Sid (Apr 2, 2005)

*Running not counting*

There seemed like a hell of a lot more coppers than 3000!!!!


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

when they had a statement on the ptr in the lords, one of the peers asked if those responsible for the violence could be transported!


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## Sid (Apr 2, 2005)

*Still waiting*

Of course one of the great memories is Tommy Sheridan going on TV that night and saying he was going to "Name, names." as to who was responsible for all the violence. We are still waiting Tommy....you f**king grass.

Also the most effective anti-poll tax group were Bournemouth who actually won the key case at the European Court and were not even members of the Anti Poll Tax Federation.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

what key case was that?


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## Divisive Cotton (Apr 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> when they had a statement on the ptr in the lords, one of the peers asked if those responsible for the violence could be transported!



 Post that up if you can find it!


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## Divisive Cotton (Apr 2, 2005)

Another aspect of the poll tax riots was that the next day, Sunday, Strangeways prison went up in smoke and then dozens of over prisons afterwards. Surely more than a coincidence...
Funny enough, I was talking to a south London-based activist some time ago, and being involved in the anti-poll tax campaign he said that the only union that actually coughed up any money was the Prison Officers Association.

I've done my own little tribute to Strangeways http://www.strangeways.marginreleased.net/


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> Post that up if you can find it!


hansard on the internet only goes back to 1994. 

but i'll go to the library on monday and copy it out.


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## tollbar (Apr 2, 2005)

Sid said:
			
		

> Of course one of the great memories is Tommy Sheridan going on TV that night and saying he was going to "Name, names." as to who was responsible for all the violence. We are still waiting Tommy....you f**king grass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sid (Apr 2, 2005)

*Wow*

Finally found something Pickman did not know! Bournemouth took the case to the european court of human rights and won £20 000 compensation for the imprisonment of a Poll Tax debtor. Bournemouth magistrates were really bad they literally had 40 people in the dock and the magistrate asking people to put their hands up. Mind you the clerk of the court at Bournmouth wrote the Magistrates handbook so hardly surprising. Another case run by two (Green Party?) people from Hackney, again non-federation, got the non-admission-of-computer-evidence-thing through at about the same time.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2005)

it was a lady from camden stop the poll tax who did the computer evidence bit. 

she was later run over by a lorry and killed.


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## Main Street (Apr 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i was at barnet magistrates' the first day of the non-payment cases there, and that tout nally was there too (though i was young and innocent so i didn't have the go at him i would do if the same thing happened again ).
> 
> there were a lot of people turned up, as i recall, and an old lady got hold of the millie megaphone and put them all to shame with her rant!



I went to Hendon Court House mores the pity.


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## catch (Apr 2, 2005)

I was 9 when it happened.


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## Chuck Wilson (Apr 2, 2005)

Came down from Manchester on a coach and got caught up in a running battle with the riot police and missed the coach home. Then tried to get across to Euston and there were still battles going on until Tottenham Court Road. Bunked the train and got in to Manchester past midnite, had to walk from Piccadilly to Withington ( about five miles) because I didn't have enough for the cab and when I got to  the house  I was locked out cos I had left the house keys in my jacket on the coach. Climbed on to the front window ledge to get on to the little roof bit over the front room  and was trying to stretch my hand through the top bedroom window to open the main bedroom window when a police car skidded to a halt, police rushed out and told me to get off the roof . I didn't have any ID , no keys, smelt of beer and my wife and son was staying at a friends whose number I couldn't remember. Thank heavens the back up police van, flashing lights and their radios caused the neighbours to come out who vouched for me and I ended up being allowed to break into my own house.

A very long day.


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## Tom A (Apr 2, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> I was 9 when it happened.


 I was 6 years and 9 months old at the time. At the time I was wondering what all the "pay no poll tax" graffiti was all about, it was one of my first vivid memories of protest, although I didn't really know why until a few years later.


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## LLETSA (Apr 3, 2005)

Sid said:
			
		

> With hindsight, and a fractured skull, I can only say I am amazed no one was killed. 100 000 rioters v 30 000 police going at it hammer an tong and no one ended up dead.





100,000 didn't riot.


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## Sid (Apr 4, 2005)

*Ok true, but......*

1. Yes it was the woman killed by the lorry on the bike who kicked off one of the cases, but after she did it with a couple of people from hackney who are still alive. Between them they McKenzie friended over a thousand cases in magistrates courts all over the UK before they got leave to appeal.

2. 100 000 did not riot, at the same time, but neither did they bugger-off allowing those who did want to have ago to do so. Still no one died which I still finding a warming and positive example of socialised hooliganism and responsible policing. Would a dead copper or protestor furthered the cause of anyone? Still seemed to be alot more than 3000 coppers on duty that day.

3. The biggest failure of the Federation or anyone else, from a "revolutionary perspective", was not to come back a second day and do it all again. Everyone was too disorganised, politically immature and freaked out by what had happened or, mildly concussed, to turn up for another go. Given the state of the Federation it would have been an utter balls-up anyway!

4. The Poll Tax riot got rid of Maggie not Parliamentary Democracy. Like the dinosaurs they are, the machinery of state and tory party took six months to wake up to the political reality everyone else had grasped and kick her out of office.

5. Cherie Blair was personally involved in prosecuting Poll Tax debtors and advising local government officers on how to successfully prosecute Poll-Tax debtors despite the official Labour Party policy being non-co-operation with the implimentation the Poll Tax. Nice work if you can get it Cherie!


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## Belushi (Apr 4, 2005)

> Cherie Blair was personally involved in prosecuting Poll Tax debtors and advising local government officers on how to successfully prosecute Poll-Tax debtors despite the official Labour Party policy being non-co-operation with the implimentation the Poll Tax. Nice work if you can get it Cherie!



I never knew that, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.


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## LLETSA (Apr 4, 2005)

Sid said:
			
		

> The Poll Tax riot got rid of Maggie not Parliamentary Democracy. Like the dinosaurs they are, the machinery of state and tory party took six months to wake up to the political reality everyone else had grasped and kick her out of office.





Did this new reality embrace those who re-elected the Tories less than two years later?


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## Sid (Apr 4, 2005)

*Missing electors*

With tens of thousands disappearing off electoral registers to avoid poll tax hardly surprising that they did not register to vote out tories two years later!!!

Doh!


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## hibee (Apr 4, 2005)

I don't think that's the point he was making. And Major won the 1992 election with more votes than any party has ever recieved, if that's the "new reality" you were talking about.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 4, 2005)

I was on top of my b/f's shoulders trying to see what was happening and spotted the horses appearing out of the side streets and then suddenly a few minutes later a load of horses came charging towards us.  Jumped down and jumped across a barrier which happened to be a double-tiered barrier and ended up nearly getting crushed between the two barriers.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2005)

Sid said:
			
		

> With tens of thousands disappearing off electoral registers to avoid poll tax hardly surprising that they did not register to vote out tories two years later!!!
> 
> Doh!


which is why thatcher said that the poll tax was a great success.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 4, 2005)

Divisive Cotton said:
			
		

> Funny enough, I was talking to a south London-based activist some time ago, and being involved in the anti-poll tax campaign he said that the only union that actually coughed up any money was the Prison Officers Association.



It might seem unusual for such a rightwing (to put it politely) union to do that, but it isn't *that* surprising, Single men and women living in Prison Service "quarters" were usually in "houseshare" situations, which at the time meant that a lot of those households were paying 6 or 8 poll tax charges (they didn't get the same concessions that the military and the bill did).
The POA *HAD* to be a bit militant about it because so many of their junior members were affected by it. There would have been severe ructions if they hadn't, and given that at the time certain elements within the Home Office were encouraging splits in the POA....well, I'm sure you catch my drift!


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## LLETSA (Apr 4, 2005)

Sid said:
			
		

> With tens of thousands disappearing off electoral registers to avoid poll tax hardly surprising that they did not register to vote out tories two years later!!!
> 
> Doh!





The biggest doh! of all is in the British left's apparent need to periodically make preposterous, self-deluding claims. 

No wonder it's all but dead.


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## Sid (Apr 5, 2005)

*Sorry mate not a lefty*

Left has been dead 30 years, so your point is?

John Major's vote went up in 1992, but why were they voting Major and nor Maggie? Where had Maggie gone and why? 

If a week is a long time in politics then how much can change in 2 years? I have never claimed that the political reality of the Poll Tax lasted but what political reality ever lasts? People have a very short attention span and a short memory.

Immediately after the Poll Tax the dance music scene suddenly took off and vast amounts of new drugs, supplied by organised crime the favoured and deniable conduit of the intelligence services, became suddenly and inexplicably available to every one. Many people at the time and subsequently did not think this was accidental. The state prefers people bombed out of their minds if the alternative is rioting, and you do not riot on e! Ok I admit I also think Techno is shit so I am a bit bias about this.

In 1992 the Poll Tax had ceased to exist and the Council Tax was on its way in. The media had run the famous grass up a poll-tax rioter campaign and as I said earlier everyone was freaked-out. The "nice" Mr Major replaced the "nasty" Maggie, so middle-England could vote for a someone.....remember the alternative was Kinnock (the biggest lefty looser I can think of!) so the result was a walk over. After all what possible alternative was there to vote for or campaign around?

Kinnock had done nothing about the Poll Tax or the Miners or the Printworkers but had been running witch hunts of Militant. Not a bad thing in itself, a senior member of Militant told me in 1989 that they would achieve a revolution within 5 years and I would be the first to be shot.

However, I cannot understand your arguement:-

An unjust tax is defeated, by accident rather than the left, and replaced by a mildly less offensive local tax

Maggie is booted out of office by her own party

Kinnock did not win the 1992 election


This was a win, win, win situation as far as I can see!


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## Wilf (Apr 5, 2005)

I was involved in local ant-PT stuff but was ill on the big day (i've got a Drs note..)   

Often wondered what happened to that woman who was mown down by a police horse in one of their charges (it featured in the Ch4 documentary).  the force with which she went down looked absolutely horrendous.


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## hibee (Apr 5, 2005)

Point is that this new political reality was barely distinguishable from the old one.


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## WasGeri (Apr 5, 2005)

Sid said:
			
		

> senior member of Militant told me in 1989 that they would achieve a revolution within 5 years



They told me it would be achieved in '10 - 15 years'.

I was very sceptical, I have to say.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2005)

& rightly so!


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2005)

The 'great tide of Marxism sweeping Britain' back in the 80's must have been held back by King Canute then.


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## Tom A (Apr 5, 2005)

There will be no revolution. They are lying.


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## zog (Apr 5, 2005)

Me and some mates came straight off a nightshift in the steelworks and on to the bus down to London. too exited to sleep on the bus cos we knew it was going to be a good one (plus we got a few hours kip in work the night before).

great atmosphere, friendly crowd. very stupid rozzers.

they forced a line through the march at whitehall and charged into the crowd trying to bust a boy who set fire to a union jack on a flag pole. one copper got hold of the boy in a bearhug but the momentum caried him deep into the crowd where the rozzer was stranded trying to hold onto the lad. my mate gave the copper one hell of a kick up the arse (we still had our works stealies on). the copper went down and the boy escaped. does PBP have any mates with a five inch wide arsehole? that was our lot.

never made it to trafalgar square but had a grand day out none the less.

came back the next year for the follow up march, a couple of days after they anounced the scrapping of it, so we just went on the piss instead.


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## Sid (Apr 6, 2005)

*Come on Tom*

If there is a revolution in this country I always hoped it would be along the lines of the Ealing comedy "Passport to Pimlico" rather than Russia 1917 or China 1948. Certainly I would trust the revolutionary potential of Stanley Holloway and Margaret Rutherford more than Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin or Mao! Of course Charles Hawtrey might have to be purged.


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