# Cyclist killed at Kings Cross Lighthouse



## toblerone3 (Oct 3, 2011)

There was a particularly nasty fatality at Kings Cross today when a female cyclist was run over by an HGV lorry in front the Lighthouse Building.  The body lay in the road for a long time while a crowd gathered round. The police arrived and eventually the body was removed from the incident tent straight into a funeral directors van. RIP


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## Geri (Oct 3, 2011)

Oh God, how awful


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## editor (Oct 3, 2011)

That horrible. Really upsetting.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 3, 2011)

Its the third fatal accident in the past two years in the Kings Cross area and the second one at this particular junction.  The previous fatal collision was between a car and a pedestrian at three in the morning. The other death was another crash between a cyclist and a lorry - that time a lorry turned left from Camden Road onto St Pancras Way killing a cyclist on its near side.


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 3, 2011)

I've seen loads of vehicles accelerating through just turned red lights at that junction. You have to wait a few seconds after the lights turn green to be really safe.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2011)

Horrible way to go...


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## Mapped (Oct 3, 2011)

I saw all the road closures at lunch time. Sorry to hear about this 

That junction/1way system is horrible for cyclists. I used to cycle into work at King's Cross and would always take a diversion down back streets to avoid that spot.


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## davesmurf (Oct 4, 2011)

head popped under HGV apparently __ fuck up __ especially for the parents __ fucksake they should pedestrianise so much of London ...


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## joevsimp (Oct 4, 2011)

davesmurf said:


> head popped under HGV apparently __ fuck up __ especially for the parents __ fucksake they should pedestrianise so much of London ...



I thought there was supposed to be a low emmissions zone to keep lorries out of central london?


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 4, 2011)

davesmurf said:


> head popped under HGV apparently __ fuck up __ especially for the parents __ fucksake they should pedestrianise so much of London ...



yes indeed

very sad news.  RIP cyclist.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2011)

davesmurf said:


> head popped under HGV apparently __ fuck up __ especially for the parents __ fucksake they should pedestrianise so much of London ...


but pedestrianising would, by its very nature, not do much for cyclists.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 4, 2011)

does anyone know what time this happened?

yes, it's a horrible way to go.


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> does anyone know what time this happened?
> 
> yes, it's a horrible way to go.


Just after midday.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

It's just insane allowing HGVs to drive through London


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks MrSki...


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## Athos (Oct 4, 2011)

I am very sorry for this woman, and for her family.

Reading this has really made me reflect on how silly some of my 'anti-cyclist' posts (on other threads) have been.  The relatively minor irritation that some of them cause me is nothing compared to an incident like this.  Even though my pops at cyclists have been largely toungue-in-cheek, I guess it's not a laughing matter; given the risks they have to run, I can understand why some get annoyed with drivers.  I shall try to be a bit more tolerant of cyclists, and understanding of their position, in future.


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## T & P (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> It's just insane allowing HGVs to drive through London


Undoubtedly the number of HGVs could be greatly reduced if the right measures were implement, but there will always be a need for _some_ HGVs entering towns and cities. Certain types of load cannot be delivered by other means, really.

Maybe there is an argument for HGVs only entering cities at night when there is minimal traffic.


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

T & P said:


> Undoubtedly the number of HGVs could be greatly reduced if the right measures were implement, but there will always be a need for _some_ HGVs entering towns and cities. Certain types of load cannot be delivered by other means, really.
> 
> Maybe there is an argument for HGVs only entering cities at night when there is minimal traffic.


Unless you live in the city & don't want HGVs rumbling past all night long.


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## plurker (Oct 4, 2011)

Reported in Standard - how come I can't edit the URL title here? http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s-as-cyclist-is-killed-outside-kings-cross.do


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 4, 2011)

Terrible terrible.  So sad. Thoughts go out to her friends and family.
Every time I start to think about cycling in London, incidents like this put me off. Sorry, cycling fans, I'm sure you can come up with lots of statistics about its safety, etc, but it's just really offputting for me. I'll stick to public transport, even if it IS expensive and more time-consuming.

Edit: I too would like to see restricted access hours for heavy goods vehicles in central London.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

T & P said:


> Undoubtedly the number of HGVs could be greatly reduced if the right measures were implement, but there will always be a need for _some_ HGVs entering towns and cities. Certain types of load cannot be delivered by other means, really.
> 
> Maybe there is an argument for HGVs only entering cities at night when there is minimal traffic.



They should certainly be banned from rush hour traffic. Or there could be an HGV Congestion Charge priced accordingly to discourage rush hour driving. Plus the EPZ or whatever it is called.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 4, 2011)

plurker said:


> Reported in Standard - how come I can't edit the URL title here? http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s-as-cyclist-is-killed-outside-kings-cross.do



Jeez...I know you might say that every accident in which somebody dies deserves the adjective, but reading this. Horrific.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 4, 2011)

wasn't there a Polish guy who got hit by an HGV earlier this year in Streatham?
HGVs scare the fuck out of me, I'm very cautious of them...


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> They should certainly be banned from rush hour traffic. Or there could be an HGV Congestion Charge priced accordingly to discourage rush hour driving. Plus the EPZ or whatever it is called.


It might be because of the congestion charge that so many lorries use the route along Euston Road & up Pentonville because it skirts the congestion zone.

I don't think midday could be described as rush hour. HGVs are often delivering to building sites & therefore need to be during the day.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> wasn't there a Polish guy who got hit by an HGV earlier this year in Streatham?
> HGVs scare the fuck out of me, I'm very cautious of them...



I find it staggering how many people try and undertake them. Just don't FFS.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

MrSki said:


> It might be because of the congestion charge that so many lorries use the route along Euston Road & up Pentonville because it skirts the congestion zone.
> 
> I don't think midday could be described as rush hour. HGVs are often delivering to building sites & therefore need to be during the day.



True, midday is not rush hour. But the wider point stands that volume of HGV's driving around central London is far too high.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> I find it staggering how many people try and undertake them. Just don't FFS.



I agree. I personally only overtake them when they're stationary.

Also, the poor girl, it seems the HGV cut into her path cos according to witnesses, the right hand of the rear wheel was what hit her.


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

plurker said:


> Reported in Standard - how come I can't edit the URL title here? http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s-as-cyclist-is-killed-outside-kings-cross.do


Does make me angry that one of the first things they mention is her not wearing a helmet. Fuck lot of good two inches of polystyrene will do if an HGV drives over your head. Typical disingenuous journalism that subtly shifts some blame to the poor victim.


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

Juice Terry said:


> Does make me angry that one of the first things they mention is her not wearing a helmet. Fuck lot of good two inches of polystyrene will do if an HGV drives over your head. Typical disingenuous journalism that subtly shifts some blame to the poor victim.



They also got the location wrong. It was at the junction of York Way not King's Cross Road.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't know how people could eat in that macdonalds opposite that.


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## Mikey77 (Oct 4, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> I don't know how people could eat in that macdonalds opposite that.



I heard about it from someone whose friend was in there eating. I hope they didn't see it all. That would be awful to see. An awful thing to happen.


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## ExtraRefined (Oct 4, 2011)

Juice Terry said:


> Does make me angry that one of the first things they mention is her not wearing a helmet. Fuck lot of good two inches of polystyrene will do if an HGV drives over your head. Typical disingenuous journalism that subtly shifts some blame to the poor victim.



This really fucked me off too, despite being someone who always wears a helmet.


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## Cid (Oct 4, 2011)

goldenecitrone said:


> I've seen loads of vehicles accelerating through just turned red lights at that junction. You have to wait a few seconds after the lights turn green to be really safe.



I don't know in this case, but most cycling fatalities in London recently have involved lorries moving at relatively slow speeds.



Garek said:


> It's just insane allowing HGVs to drive through London



Not really any alternative if you want to keep central London working economically... Could potentially pedestrianise areas, but you'd need delivery points which would probably still use that junction. It would also cost an enormous amount, and sadly the appetite for that kind of project isn't there at the moment.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

Cid said:


> Not really any alternative if you want to keep central London working economically... Could potentially pedestrianise areas, but you'd need delivery points which would probably still use that junction. It would also cost an enormous amount, and sadly the appetite for that kind of project isn't there at the moment.



I think parts of Germany have HGVs to transport stuff between cities and then distribution point for the stuff to go on smaller vehicles to go around town. I mean you can still have fairly big vehicles on the road without them being artics. But I do agree with your point that is ingrained into how this city works.


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

The last bike under a vehicle in King's Cross was a bus (Don't really want to ban these!) & the one before was a cement mixer & they need to deliver to sites during working hours.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 4, 2011)

Still a great idea this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/green-living-blog/2010/aug/02/hgv-lorries-cycling-campaign


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## Thraex (Oct 4, 2011)

On Saturday evening I was in my front room, which fronts straight onto a High Street (my flat used to be a shop) I heard an almighty bang followed by a whirring of a wheel spinning. Looked through my blinds and saw a motorcyclist in the middle of the road (don't know what hit the bike). A few people there so I thought someone would have called an ambulance. Looked out about 5 minutes later and a crowd of 20 - 30 had gathered, a significant number were filming it on their phones...with fuckin' grins on their faces. It took over an hour to clear the road; I don't know if it was a fatality but a friend said taking that amount of time was probably due to the police doing their measuring as it probably was a fatality.  It was the nastiness of the rubber-necking that got me.


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

dragonwolf said:


> On Saturday evening I was in my front room, which fronts straight onto a High Street (my flat used to be a shop) I heard an almighty bang followed by a whirring of a wheel spinning. Looked through my blinds and saw a motorcyclist in the middle of the road (don't know what hit the bike). A few people there so I thought someone would have called an ambulance. Looked out about 5 minutes later and a crowd of 20 - 30 had gathered, a significant number were filming it on their phones...with fuckin' grins on their faces. It took over an hour to clear the road; I don't know if it was a fatality but a friend said taking that amount of time was probably due to the police doing their measuring as it probably was a fatality.  It was the nastiness of the rubber-necking that got me.


Normally 3 to 4 hours for a fatality.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

We don't yet know the facts of this case, though one report says the cyclist was riding alongside the lorry - rather than any suggestion that it had moved to be unknowingly alongside the cyclist - though doubtless some of the accidents *are* 100 percent the fault of the driver.

But what do we do about *cycle training* ?

The fatuous "she wasn't wearing a helmet" comment in the Standard is presumably meant to imply that the cyclist was inexperienced, and by the same token they mention the advanced age of the lorry driver, but sadly in spite of repeated tragedies of this sort, you can *daily* see cyclists *deliberately* riding close to HGVs - as if they lack the basic shiver down the spine that should make them get as far away as possible.

Speaking for myself, I had motorcycle training and had passed my MC test and learned to drive a car long before I switched to a pushbike at 27, but doubtless lacked certain *pushbike-specific* skills I've hopefully acquired since and could have usefully learned from an instructor.


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> This really fucked me off too, despite being someone who always wears a helmet.


I usually wear a helmet too but am aware of their limitations.

If a pedestrian or motorist died of head injuries no-one would mention the lack of helmet.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 4, 2011)

I think gentlegreen said it best with the 'shiver down the spine' feeling when HGVs/ lorries are around.
As a cyclist, it's common sense to stay as far away from them as possible...
I get that feeling all the time and my heart stops whenever I see a cyclist under-taking them...

ETA - just read she was from Korea, 24 year old fashion student. Probably not use to London roads...


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## edeeta (Oct 4, 2011)

I was there yesterday and saw everything. The lorry hasn't even stopped after the accident. Woman's head was crushed and her brains were on the road. At least this is what I saw. People were screaming. I didn't want to watch at her for too long so I run away from that place as soon as possible... If she had a helmet on maybe she would be alive today..


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## plurker (Oct 4, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> but doubtless lacked certain *pushbike-specific* skills I've hopefully acquired since and could have usefully learned from an instructor.



Such as GG?  I used to push-bike commute all the time, then moved to scooter then full m/c test.

I learnt so much from my m/c training (livesavers, positioning, filtering, cornering, blind-spots etc - all of which were woefully lacking in car driving tests) that I genuinely can't think of anything cycle-specific that isn't covered by Direct Access and subsequent riding.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

edeeta said:


> I. If she had a helmet on maybe she would be alive today..



Not a chance.

That's the one thing we can be absolutely sure of.

Do you wear a helmet as a pedestrian ?
By all accounts there's actually more risk of a head injury if you travel by car.
Why not make toddlers wear helmets all the time ?

You subscribed to U75 just to say that ?


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## snowy_again (Oct 4, 2011)

^^ this. I've reported my first post on here (edeeta's), as it's factually incorrect (the driver was stopped by police) and frankly mawkish. If you have anything sensible to add to the accident, please report it to the police and don't post it on open messageboards.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

plurker said:


> Such as GG? I used to push-bike commute all the time, then moved to scooter then full m/c test.
> 
> I learnt so much from my m/c training (livesavers, positioning, filtering, cornering, blind-spots etc - all of which were woefully lacking in car driving tests) that I genuinely can't think of anything cycle-specific that isn't covered by Direct Access and subsequent riding.



OK, perhaps I _*had*_ learned everything I needed as a motorcyclist - I can't remember if I was initially prone to forget that I didn't have an engine to get me out of trouble - but then I was a very slow motorcyclist and I've always been incredibly lucky with the quietness of the roads I use as a cyclist ...

Overall, I feel it's taken me most of the 34 years and 60-odd thousand miles since I first took to the road on a Honda 125 to really engage with what I'm doing - and I have so little experience even now of commuting in city traffic, I don't know if I'd cope. Doubtless I would have to do without the comfort of musical accompaniment for a start.

... so I wonder how much training it would take ..


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## edeeta (Oct 4, 2011)

I've just said what I saw, if the driver was stopped by the police that's great. Going back to the helmet, this is only my opinion. I don't think people wear them just because it looks nice (in my opinion it doesn't).
You should not compare pedestrians and cyclists because pedestrians are walking on the sidewalks not in the middle of the street.
When you travel by car you have airbags in your car.
And no, that's not the reason why I subscribed to U75.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

edeeta said:


> <....>



Having witnessed what you say you witnessed, just what sort of helmet do you suppose would resist the wheels of a lorry ?

Why not try a less challenging thread ?
We've recently lost our main celeb gossip poster ...


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## edeeta (Oct 4, 2011)

You are really "sweet". I don't understand why you are attacking me. As if I should feel sorry that I saw what I saw and expressed my opinion in this forum. For your information I haven't seen how her head was crushed (and thanks god). I just saw the lorry and her body after the accident. I'm not an expert, but even if in this particular situation the helmet may not have saved her, I believe it is still useful thing and every cyclist should wear it.


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## Boycey (Oct 4, 2011)

i call shenanigans


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

Yep - definitely posting from under a bridge ...


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

edeeta said:


> You are really "sweet". I don't understand why you are attacking me.


Because someone died and you're talking shit.


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## edeeta (Oct 4, 2011)

I know and I feel sorry for her. I don't think that's the reason. Most probably someone is not in the mood and want to express his anger on a stranger...


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

edeeta said:


> I know and I feel sorry for her. I don't think that's the reason. Most probably someone is not in the mood and want to express his anger on a stranger...


Oh do feck off Firky.

"edeeta" sounds like something else ...


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## Crispy (Oct 4, 2011)

Ok, calm down people. Nothing wrong with saying what you saw. Please keep "jump on the newbie" activities off this thread.

EDIT: And _there_'s the Firky accusation


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## edeeta (Oct 4, 2011)

I always thought that forums are designed to share your thoughts with other people, but perhaps I was wrong. For some people it's a place where they can feel less miserable than they really are in the real life. Good luck attacking other people!

BTW, thanks Crispy, at least there is one person who acts mature.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 4, 2011)

i felt very vulnerable on my bike coming through london today. i'd read about this, and last week i saw the aftermath of a fatal mobility scooter accident, in the very place i saw a cyclist get killed a few years ago.
be careful out there people! i feel a hypocrite saying so though as last week i cycled through the very spot in king's cross where this accident happened, in a stupidly dangerous way, and i'm lucky and this cyclist wasn't.


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> It's just insane allowing HGVs to drive through London


yes santa should deliver all year round


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> True, midday is not rush hour. But the wider point stands that volume of HGV's driving around central London is far too high.


they really should stop all that joy-riding


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> Still a great idea this.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/green-living-blog/2010/aug/02/hgv-lorries-cycling-campaign


what a shit article. just shovels all responsibility onto the hgv driver, when it's suicidal cyclists aiming for your blind spots that are the problem


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

ffs


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

your point caller?

i drive hgv's and never ceased to be horrified at the antics of cyclists, or the stupid places they position themselves


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

You drive a 20 ton lump of metal with massive blind spots through over crowded city streets and you think the problem is the cyclists.


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

now i understand your response. you're thick


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 4, 2011)

How do you want firms to bring goods into London then?


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

perhaps all building sites should only work nights?
hospitals situated out of town?
out of town shopping centres to replace all the high streets?


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> How do you want firms to bring goods into London then?



I think we can all agree the choice is not between a Mini and a road train. There can be a sensible agreement to a maximum size of vehicle allowed to enter London without any sort of authorisation. Just as with the Congestion Charge there can be a zone of where there is a maximum size of vehicle allowed to enter. If it is over, for building works let's say, then a special permit can be applied for. As I said earlier you can still probably get very large vehicles in London without them needing to be the absolutely massive vehicles allowed at the moment.

This is not an all or nothing situation.


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

gavman said:


> now i understand your response. you're thick



No you really haven't understood it at all, in fact my main point completely passed you by, and you're calling me thick. How about the first thing you do is eliminate the fucking blind spots before you drive in an over crowded environment? That would be my first step if I was driving an HGV and I didn't want to crush anyone to death? Probably too expensive though isn't it, not worth the money just another cyclist under the wheels eh?


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

Juice Terry said:


> No you really haven't understood it at all, in fact my main point completely passed you by, and you're calling me thick. How about the first thing you do is eliminate the fucking blind spots before you drive in an over crowded environment? That would be my first step if I was driving an HGV and I didn't want to crush anyone to death? Probably too expensive though isn't it, not worth the money just another cyclist under the wheels eh?



Actually this is a good question. Why do lorries need raised cabs?


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> Actually this is a good question. Why do lorries need raised cabs?


With all the cheap cameras and lcd screens around these days theres no excuse for any HGV to have a blind spot.


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

increased visibility. we also have no less than six mirrors to enable you to see various blind spots, and 'mirror work' is the single biggest component of your lgv test, you have to have half a dozen nervous ticks to make sure people arent coming up your inside when waiting at lights. cyclists need to ride more defensively and not ride into your blind spots when you are stationary. if you can't see my mirrors, how can i see you?


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## gavman (Oct 4, 2011)

Juice Terry said:


> With all the cheap cameras and lcd screens around these days theres no excuse for any HGV to have a blind spot.


so you require infallible hgv drivers, instead of cyclists taking basic care of themselves?
is this technology infallible?
or does it make good sense to, you know, not put yourself in dangerous positions where you rely on others?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 4, 2011)

everyone needs to look out really.
people do need to stay behind hgvs. it's just suicidal not to.
(though i'm not implying that the dead cyclist in the OP did anything to hasten her demise)


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

HGVs have blind spots, so effectively do all vehicles - mainly due to the varying competence of the people driving them.

It's a two way thing. When I drive I make mistakes. When I ride my bike I make mistakes. We survive because every competent road user allows a sufficient margin of error.

Scaled down I'm detecting some friction building on my beloved Bristol to Bath path between cyclists and pedestrians because so many cyclists are selfish c*nts or idiots.


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## weepiper (Oct 4, 2011)

It's not just about the blind spots, it's because the back end of a lorry can swing out much further than you might anticipate it could as it turns. I never overtake lorries now, in queuing traffic I'll wait behind them, if I'm pulling out of a side street and there's one coming a short way up the road I'll wait for it to pass before I pull out because I'd rather it was in front of me and I've been known to get off my bike and put myself on the pavement if I'm waiting at lights and a lorry pulls up behind/beside me. That said, I don't know what happened here and it's still perfectly possible the cyclist did nothing wrong at all.


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## Boycey (Oct 4, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> everyone needs to look out really.
> people do need to stay behind hgvs. it's just suicidal not to.
> (though i'm not implying that the dead cyclist in the OP did anything to hasten her demise)



what if you're behind an HGV and there's another one behind you? get off? hop onto the pavement? blanket advice like that isn't necessarily helpful in all road situations.

it is well worth reading this thread from movingtarget when an HGV driver and sometime cyclist joined the board to educate us on the many blindspots of your average HGV.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

I had a scary few minutes one time driving a Peugeot 305 van (windowless apart from the cab and back.) and I got stuck in a position where I had to pull into a one way traffic stream from the right hand side. I really can't remember how I pulled it off.
I really don't get on with mirrors. I park by leaning out of the door.


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

gavman said:


> so you require infallible hgv drivers, instead of cyclists taking basic care of themselves?
> is this technology infallible?
> or does it make good sense to, you know, not put yourself in dangerous positions where you rely on others?



Well of course in a perfect world all cyclists would never put themselves in danger, but that's not where we're living. Cyclists are going to be around in ever increasing numbers, they're not going away and some of them may be inexperienced/reckless. But if someone gets killed on the road the most important question is surely not "who is to blame?" but "can we do something to stop it happening again?".

With regards to cyclist deaths (13 so far in London this year alone) it's simply not enough to keep saying it was their fault they were riding like muppets. Death by HGV is a disproportionate penalty for doing something stupid.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 4, 2011)

We're not the  Netherlands, never can be.

A brilliant starting point would be for all those lazy gits driving a few miles got on their bikes and left most private car use for the elderly / disabled - thus easing the pressure on the roads.


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## Juice Terry (Oct 4, 2011)

More cyclists make it better.

On my route into the city these days there can easily be 20/30 cyclists queuing up at each set of lights (yes most of us do stop), safety in numbers does come into play, there's simply too many of us now to ignore. It's way better than when I started commuting by bike in the mid 90's when there'd be just a handful of bikes on the same route.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 4, 2011)

I often cycle along Euston Road and cross over that junction to continue onto the Pentonville Road. It is a scary junction for even for a relatively confident cyclist such as myself.

A big problem is that many cars have often been in stop start traffic for long sections of the Euston Road and as they pass the lights at St Pancras Road and at York Way and the Caledonian Road traffic tends to speed up. This combined with the multi-lane nature of the road makes it difficult to cycle.

The junction with York Way (where this accident took place) is one of the worst spots. It is dangerous to stick to the left hand lane as you risk being cut up by fast moving vehicle turning left into York Way. In heavy traffic you can easily find yourself on the outside edge of the left lane toying with the idea of overtaking a vehicle in the left hand lane. The problem here is that the vans and taxis overtaking you in the right hand lane are often driving extremely fast making it difficult to give enough clearance to the vehicle you are overtaking in the left hand lane. If you try and ride in lane in the middle lane (which is what I think you should do here) you often get honked at by accelerating drivers behind you wanting to speed through the lights.

I think the whole junction needs to be redesigned, But I'm not quite sure how.


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## Cid (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> I think we can all agree the choice is not between a Mini and a road train. There can be a sensible agreement to a maximum size of vehicle allowed to enter London without any sort of authorisation. Just as with the Congestion Charge there can be a zone of where there is a maximum size of vehicle allowed to enter. If it is over, for building works let's say, then a special permit can be applied for. As I said earlier you can still probably get very large vehicles in London without them needing to be the absolutely massive vehicles allowed at the moment.



More traffic on the roads, more pollution, problems for companies changing their fleets.



Juice Terry said:


> Well of course in a perfect world all cyclists would never put themselves in danger, but that's not where we're living. Cyclists are going to be around in ever increasing numbers, they're not going away and some of them may be inexperienced/reckless. But if someone gets killed on the road the most important question is surely not "who is to blame?" but "can we do something to stop it happening again?".
> 
> With regards to cyclist deaths (13 so far in London this year alone) it's simply not enough to keep saying it was their fault they were riding like muppets. Death by HGV is a disproportionate penalty for doing something stupid.



Your 'not a perfect world' theory applies to HGV drivers just as readily. There are limits to what you can do with HGV drivers too; only so many checks someone can do before setting off, only so many mirrors before it becomes a mess and distracts the driver from what's happening in front of him. Some of them aren't going to be from England so you won't reach them with ad campaigns etc, some are simply going to be a bit negligent from time to time, due to not being perfect (I imagine, for example, that the junction in the OP is not a pleasant one for an HGV driver).

There are quite a few things you can do from the cyclist's point of view though; road signs, targeted ad campaigns etc.


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

There is a so called cycle lane that starts two or three metres from the start of Pentonville Road by McDonalds in the photo. Maybe that would indicate staying left at the Junction of York Way but I would not cycle there. Bad enough on foot.


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 4, 2011)

Horrible junction to cross, even for pedestrians.
Ultimately, if you're in a HGV and you make a mistake, you're still alive at the end of it. If you're on a bike and you make a mistake, well, you're less likely to be alive at the end of it.
Therefore traffic policy should take relative risk into account. Something should be done to mitigate the risk which HGVs currently pose in central London.

On a plus note, it's good that councils are increasingly removing those barriers from the pavement - absolute death-traps for cyclists.


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## Cid (Oct 4, 2011)

_What_ should be done?


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## MrSki (Oct 4, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Horrible junction to cross, even for pedestrians.
> Ultimately, if you're in a HGV and you make a mistake, you're still alive at the end of it. If you're on a bike and you make a mistake, well, you're less likely to be alive at the end of it.
> Therefore traffic policy should take relative risk into account. Something should be done to mitigate the risk which HGVs currently pose in central London.
> 
> On a plus note, it's good that councils are increasingly removing those barriers from the pavement - absolute death-traps for cyclists.


It was TFL that removed them from outside the Big Chill. Saw one fatality & another ambulance case within the first week. Might be a nightmare for cyclists, saw a couple of accidents over the last ten years but much worse for pedestrians with it seeming one way if you look towards King's Cross from the junction of Pentonville Road & KX Road. It is very busy at times with pedestrians a lot of whom are tourists. Forget to look up the hill especially if they have walked up KX road & it loks like a one way street with the bus lane that comes down the hill not visable.


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## temper_tantrum (Oct 4, 2011)

Cid said:


> _What_ should be done?



I do believe that people have already put forward some good ideas in this very thread.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 4, 2011)

Take out all of the one way streets in the Kings Cross gyratory area. Introduce a Shared Space approach with diagonal crossings with a shared space pedestrian *and* cyclist phase. And put some traffic calming in. We were talking about this in the Living Streets Kings Cross branch.   Mad ideas I know, but this junction tends to blow the street design manuals to pieces. Fundamental problem being a combination of grade one place with grade one link.


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## ExtraRefined (Oct 4, 2011)

gavman said:


> your point caller?
> 
> i drive hgv's and never ceased to be horrified at the antics of cyclists, or the stupid places they position themselves



And yet in 80% of collisions involving cyclists, the other party is at fault.


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## Cid (Oct 5, 2011)

toblerone3 said:


> Take out all of the one way streets in the Kings Cross gyratory area. Introduce a Shared Space approach with diagonal crossings with a shared space pedestrian *and* cyclist phase. And put some traffic calming in. We were talking about this in the Living Streets Kings Cross branch. Mad ideas I know, but this junction tends to blow the street design manuals to pieces. Fundamental problem being a combination of grade one place with grade one link.



Yep, there are plenty of things you could do to this specific junction (and should do, for such a major transport hub it's pretty awful). Doesn't address the wider issue though.



ExtraRefined said:


> And yet in 80% of collisions involving cyclists, the other party is at fault.



I'm guessing most collisions with cyclists don't involve HGVs...


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 5, 2011)

gavman said:


> what a shit article. just shovels all responsibility onto the hgv driver, when it's suicidal cyclists aiming for your blind spots that are the problem



No it doesn't.
It shoves the responsibility onto the company not the driver.
We know it's impossible for drivers to see cyclists in blind-spots, so why not introduce extra cameras?
Surely that would lessen the chances of more civilians getting killed right?

No-one deserves to die for doing something unknowingly stupid, like that foreign student riding alongside a HGV.


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## fredfelt (Oct 5, 2011)

Meanwhile there's a proposal to allow longer HGV's on the roads in the UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/mar/31/longer-lorries-road-accidents

http://road.cc/content/news/37738-c...on-fight-introduction-longer-lorries-uk-roads


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## Juice Terry (Oct 5, 2011)

Why can't HGVs be fitted with mesh guards/metal skirts around the wheels/trailer that would prevent anyone being able to go under the wheels? Is this not another blatantly obvious safeguard ignored due to cost and the extra hassle it would put on maintenance.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> No it doesn't.
> It shoves the responsibility onto the company not the driver.
> We know it's impossible for drivers to see cyclists in blind-spots, so why not introduce extra cameras?
> Surely that would lessen the chances of more civilians getting killed right?
> ...


tbh it doesn't take a genius to work out that cycling alongside a hgv is perilous.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 5, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it doesn't take a genius to work out that cycling alongside a hgv is perilous.



I know that. I said that earlier.
But with inexperienced cyclists...the mistakes they make...that single second of misjudgement...


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## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> I know that. I said that earlier.
> But with inexperienced cyclists...the mistakes they make...that single second of misjudgement...


i was responding to the last sentence of your previous post


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## snowy_again (Oct 5, 2011)

edeeta said:


> I've just said what I saw, if the driver was stopped by the police that's great. Going back to the helmet, this is only my opinion.  <snip> And no, that's not the reason why I subscribed to U75.



I'm sure you're still probably a troll, but if you have any witness information, I'm sure you'll be providing it to the police won't you?

Details of how here: http://content.met.police.uk/Appeal...traffic-collision/1400003474066/1257246745782

Let us know what you do?


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## ElizabethofYork (Oct 5, 2011)

Oh the poor kid, and her poor parents.  What a ghastly thing.  RIP Min Joo Lee.


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## Cid (Oct 5, 2011)

Juice Terry said:


> Why can't HGVs be fitted with mesh guards/metal skirts around the wheels/trailer that would prevent anyone being able to go under the wheels? Is this not another blatantly obvious safeguard ignored due to cost and the extra hassle it would put on maintenance.



Most have side guards between the wheels, just not on them... Not sure why, perhaps a width thing/issue with stuff damaging tires..


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## IC3D (Oct 5, 2011)

By simply giving cyclists x amount of seconds to clear junctions before other traffic accidents like this would be a rarity. I watch the traffic and light change on the road I'm crossing as my cue to set off across the junction, I'm at risk from some one racing through at the last second (normally a motorbike) but generally this means going through and open junction in peace. A system based on this wouldn't slow traffic because vehicles would catch up anyway on a straight bit of road. RIP


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## nino_savatte (Oct 5, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> We don't yet know the facts of this case, though one report says the cyclist was riding alongside the lorry - rather than any suggestion that it had moved to be unknowingly alongside the cyclist - though doubtless some of the accidents *are* 100 percent the fault of the driver.
> 
> But what do we do about *cycle training* ?
> 
> ...



Yes, poor road positioning is the most frequent cause of cycling deaths in London. I've lost count of the number of cyclists I see trying to squeeze through a 6 inch gap between a large vehicle and the kerb. I even tell off those people who I see doing it. They look at me like I'm crazy. In heavy traffic, I always find it best to take the primary position. Far too many cyclists seem to think it's okay to be invisible to other road users.

I saw some idiot cycling around with his V-brakes undone yesterday. I said "sort your brakes out". He just laughed.


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## 100% masahiko (Oct 5, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> I saw some idiot cycling around with his V-brakes undone yesterday. I said "sort your brakes out". He just laughed.



He had no brakes at all?


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## nino_savatte (Oct 5, 2011)

100% masahiko said:


> He had no brakes at all?


They'd been popped open. So he effectively had no means of stopping his bike.


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## Crispy (Oct 5, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> They'd been popped open. So he effectively had no means of stopping his bike.


Wasn't a fixie?
(Not that I think riding a fixie without brakes is big and clever either)


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## Ae589 (Oct 5, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> They'd been popped open. So he effectively had no means of stopping his bike.


Fixie?  That would explain the laughing too - he was a bit simple.


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## nino_savatte (Oct 5, 2011)

Ae589 said:


> Fixie? That would explain the laughing too - he was a bit simple.


No, it was a crappy-looking MTB.


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## nino_savatte (Oct 5, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Wasn't a fixie?
> (Not that I think riding a fixie without brakes is big and clever either)


No, MTB... could have been one of those cheap Probikes...ugh.


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## lllmax (Oct 5, 2011)

I am in the same year at Saint Martins as this poor girl, she was killed on her first day back at university. She wouldn't have died if our campus hadn't been moved to King's Cross. The students and teachers on the fashion course didn't want to move from charing cross and it's completely irresponsible to move students to an incomplete building that is surrounded by building sites. I would be interested to know if that lorry was from one of these sites on the king's cross redevelopment area. So sad, just awful.


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## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> And yet in 80% of collisions involving cyclists, the other party is at fault.


link?


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## editor (Oct 5, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it doesn't take a genius to work out that cycling alongside a hgv is perilous.


Sometimes the HGV comes alongside you and you haven't much choice in the matter.


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## ExtraRefined (Oct 5, 2011)

gavman said:


> link?


http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/drivers-at-fault-in-majority-of-cycling-accidents-28489/


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## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

so according to cyclists then. in a very narrow survey. in australia.


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## Blagsta (Oct 5, 2011)

gavman said:


> so according to cyclists then. in a very narrow survey. in australia.



_Naturalistic Cycling Study: Identifying risk factors for on-road commuter cyclists' by Marilyn Johnson, Judith Charlton, Jennifer Oxley and Stuart Newstead at Monash University Accident Research Centre in Melbourne (54th AAAM Annual Conference, Annals of Advances in Automotive Medicine, October 17-20, 2010)_


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 5, 2011)

editor said:


> Sometimes the HGV comes alongside you and you haven't much choice in the matter.


that should be a situation where you, as the cyclist, need to take control of circumstances, before they reach that state. most hgv drivers give sensible cyclists a wide berth, in the same way that they do peds, motorbikes etc.

it is true that some cyclists take insane risks undertaking, or aren't fully conscious of what's going on around them because they don't concentrate, or because they cycle with ipod headphones in, such that they put themselves and others in danger.


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## Cid (Oct 5, 2011)

lllmax said:


> I am in the same year at Saint Martins as this poor girl, she was killed on her first day back at university. She wouldn't have died if our campus hadn't been moved to King's Cross. The students and teachers on the fashion course didn't want to move from charing cross and it's completely irresponsible to move students to an incomplete building that is surrounded by building sites. I would be interested to know if that lorry was from one of these sites on the king's cross redevelopment area. So sad, just awful.



Sorry to hear this, hope none of the posts on this thread seem targeted at her - it's a dreadful thing to happen. If we debate causes and solutions a little callously sometimes it's because these issues are important to us... That junction has always been hairy as a cyclist, the route leads on to mount pleasant sorting office (largest in london) as well as serving the industrial estates in York Way and being one of the main routes from the west through central London (effective starts at the M40) to the city and south.

Agree on St Martins btw, whole thing has been woefully managed.


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## Cid (Oct 5, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> that should be a situation where you, as the cyclist, need to take control of circumstances, before they reach that state. most hgv drivers give sensible cyclists a wide berth, in the same way that they do peds, motorbikes etc.
> 
> it is true that some cyclists take insane risks undertaking, or aren't fully conscious of what's going on around them because they don't concentrate, or because they cycle with ipod headphones in, such that they put themselves and others in danger.



As a cyclist I have to say i've never got into one of these 'HGV sneaking up' situations, I mean we're talking about an 18 metre behemoth belching fumes and chugging away. Not _that_ hard to anticipate them. Certainly in the case of a new cyclist who doesn't understand the risks I can see it happening, but really shouldn't to someone experienced.


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## ExtraRefined (Oct 5, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> _Naturalistic Cycling Study: Identifying risk factors for on-road commuter cyclists' by Marilyn Johnson, Judith Charlton, Jennifer Oxley and Stuart Newstead at Monash University Accident Research Centre in Melbourne (54th AAAM Annual Conference, Annals of Advances in Automotive Medicine, October 17-20, 2010)_



With observation skills like that, you can see how gavman became an HGV driver


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## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

from your link:
'13 adult cyclists in Melbourne were given helmet-mounted video cameras and asked to film 12 hours of commuting each over a four-week period.'

yes incredible how someone could overlook such an authoritative body of evidence

btw how are you getting on with your deliveries by skyhooks?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 5, 2011)

Cid said:


> As a cyclist I have to say i've never got into one of these 'HGV sneaking up' situations, I mean we're talking about an 18 metre behemoth belching fumes and chugging away. Not _that_ hard to anticipate them. Certainly in the case of a new cyclist who doesn't understand the risks I can see it happening, but really shouldn't to someone experienced.


thank you


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## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

an article from a non-cycling media outlet

from the article:
Bicyclists were twice as likely as drivers to be at fault in the nearly 2,000 collisions that killed or severely injured Bay Area bike riders in the past decade, an analysis by The Chronicle shows.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/21/MNU3VOB22.DTL#ixzz1Zwex6xEI​


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## Blagsta (Oct 5, 2011)

gavman said:


> from your link:
> '13 adult cyclists in Melbourne were given helmet-mounted video cameras and asked to film 12 hours of commuting each over a four-week period.'
> 
> yes incredible how someone could overlook such an authoritative body of evidence
> ...


Presumably you can write a cogent critique of the methodology used, including a statistical analysis?


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## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

presume away fucknut.
however i would set greater store in an analysis of 2,000 injury / fatal accidents (over ten years) than in the anecdotal evidence gathered from 12 hours of footage from 13 riders' helmet cams, over a four week period


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## Blagsta (Oct 5, 2011)

gavman said:


> presume away fucknut.
> however i would set greater store in an analysis of 2,000 injury / fatal accidents (over ten years) than in the anecdotal evidence gathered from 12 hours of footage from 13 riders' helmet cams, over a four week period



An academic study vs a newspaper?

Here's the original paper if you want to write a critique.
http://www.thinkingtransport.org.au...lyn Johnson, HelmetCam research results_0.pdf


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## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

erm...your post specified the methodology and statistical analysis. but keep moving the goalposts, by all means.


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## Blagsta (Oct 5, 2011)

no wonder people hate you


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## gavman (Oct 5, 2011)

oh nooes!
who hates me blagsta?
i jolly well won't be able to sleep now


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## gavman (Oct 6, 2011)

ftr all i'm pointing out here is that you can't just blame lorry drivers or wish the problem away. cyclists must ride defensively, especially since their lives depend on it. many have posted perfectly sensible advice in specific situations.

the only controversial thing there is whether cyclists should also have some training, and is it wise to have hgv's on the road at the same times as cyclists if we are going to encourage everyone to bike more often...boris bikes etc

 i know my last driving job was silent deliveries through the night to a major high street chain. the hours are dictated by limited access to town centres, depending on the time of day. we worked at a time to avoid traffic, cyclists etc, and most of the pedestrians were looking for somewhere to have a slash on the way home from the pub
but these are regular, scheduled 'stock-ups', so easy to plan and arrange to do overnight. unfortunately when i was delivering steel to building sites that wasn't an option..as it came off the wagon it went straight into place.

unless of course people would prefer building works to only happen at night...and the more you insist that wagons avoid town centres, well that means yet more bypasses, yet more countryside beneath concrete


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## Blagsta (Oct 6, 2011)

gavman said:


> oh nooes!
> who hates me blagsta?
> i jolly well won't be able to sleep now


You're always complaining about your lack of social skills. Hint - stop being abusive to anyone who has a different opinion.


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## Ae589 (Oct 6, 2011)

gavman said:


> an article from a non-cycling media outlet
> 
> from the article:
> Bicyclists were twice as likely as drivers to be at fault in the nearly 2,000 collisions that killed or severely injured Bay Area bike riders in the past decade, an analysis by The Chronicle shows.
> ...



"some cyclists are very political about their cycling: They yell at the motorists to 'Just stop driving.' "


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## fredfelt (Oct 6, 2011)

gavman said:


> erm...your post specified the methodology and statistical analysis. but keep moving the goalposts, by all means.



Glad you have an interest in this.  Here's some information from the Transport Research Laboratory- commissioned by TFL



> With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time.



http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/r..._britain_s_roads_establishing_the_causes_.htm


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## editor (Oct 6, 2011)

Ae589 said:


> "some cyclists are very political about their cycling: They yell at the motorists to 'Just stop driving.' "


Those bloody cyclists. Always yelling that at cars. At times, it sounds like there's a football match going on in the street with all that 'Just stop driving' shouting.


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## ElizabethofYork (Oct 6, 2011)

gavman said:


> ftr all i'm pointing out here is that you can't just blame lorry drivers or wish the problem away. cyclists must ride defensively, especially since their lives depend on it.



^
Yeah, that.


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 6, 2011)

define defensively? I mean, a lot of inexperienced cyclists seem to me to undertake, because overtaking is seen as more aggressive...


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## tommers (Oct 6, 2011)

Defensively is good, assertively is better.  Cycle safety is all about road position and not taking unnecessary risks.

I would say riding defensively puts your safety as the most important thing and that takes precedence over getting there quickly etc.  So... if there's a f**k off big lorry in front of you at lights and you think it's safer behind it than in front of it or inside it then you stay there.

Assume everybody is trying to kill you.

The main thing that inexperienced cyclists should know is that it is better to cycle in the middle of the lane than in the gutter.


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## TitanSound (Oct 6, 2011)

tommers said:


> The main thing that inexperienced cyclists should know is that it is better to cycle in the middle of the lane than in the gutter.



Damn right. Especially on main roads with lots of parked cars. I may get the finger for "getting in somebody's way", but that's a lot better then some dozy cunt opening a door in front of me whilst I'm travelling at 15mph.


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## rover07 (Oct 6, 2011)

lllmax said:


> I am in the same year at Saint Martins as this poor girl, she was killed on her first day back at university. She wouldn't have died if our campus hadn't been moved to King's Cross. The students and teachers on the fashion course didn't want to move from charing cross and it's completely irresponsible to move students to an incomplete building that is surrounded by building sites. I would be interested to know if that lorry was from one of these sites on the king's cross redevelopment area. So sad, just awful.



Thats so sad. 

A week later and she would have had that junction sussed.


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## fredfelt (Oct 6, 2011)

gavman said:


> an article from a non-cycling media outlet
> 
> from the article:
> Bicyclists were twice as likely as drivers to be at fault in the nearly 2,000 collisions that killed or severely injured Bay Area bike riders in the past decade, an analysis by The Chronicle shows.
> ...



I don't think it's useful to look to the US for these kind of figures.  I lived in Georgia for a while in a gated community - less than 500m from the entrance was a set of shops.  There was not a pavement to use, I refused to drive for just 500 metres so I walked along the verge of the main road.

Twice a police car pulled over and told me that I was stupid for walking as I'd cause an accident.  The attitude is if a cyclist or a pedestrian is in an accident with a car the driver's blameless as you should really be in a car to be on a street.

Here in the UK academic research shows that in the event of driver / cyclist collision that drivers usually are to blame - and the victim invariably suffers the consequences.

http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/r..._britain_s_roads_establishing_the_causes_.htm

But I agree with your point that cyclists must ride defensively.


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## Cid (Oct 6, 2011)

San francisco bay is about as different from Georgia as it is from Melbourne - I think both examples are of limited help, but Gavman was at least coming from a 'look I can dig up a random article too' perspective than a 'here are my FACTS' one. In reality, as in your link (well, I assume from the abstract), the best way to do it is probably meta-analysis of data relating to number of accidents, types of vehicles, outcomes of court cases etc.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 6, 2011)

Camden New Journal was interesting today calling for a complete London-wide ban on HGVs during the daytime.​
It has also discovered that a redesign of the Kings Cross junction to make it safer for cyclists was due to have begun last month, but TfL delayed it. The delayed improvements include new ASLs, tactile paving and the change in location of a no stopping box. Earlier TfL reports commissioned in 2008 had called for the introduction of traffic calming at the junction, but these had not been carried through.​
No link on their website yet.​


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## toblerone3 (Oct 6, 2011)

Camden New Journal link

http://www.camdennewjournal.com/new...’s-life-kings-cross-junction-safety-work-was-


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## nino_savatte (Oct 6, 2011)

TitanSound said:


> Damn right. Especially on main roads with lots of parked cars. I may get the finger for "getting in somebody's way", but that's a lot better then some dozy cunt opening a door in front of me whilst I'm travelling at 15mph.


Exactly. If a motorist beeps their horn, I know they've seen me and I'm not invisible like so many gutter cyclists tend to be. Making eye contact with other road users is also good practice.


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## gavman (Oct 6, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> You're always complaining about your lack of social skills. Hint - stop being abusive to anyone who has a different opinion.


the day i take hints from you on social skills is the day i've truly lost the plot.


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## edeeta (Oct 6, 2011)

snowy_again said:


> I'm sure you're still probably a troll, but if you have any witness information, I'm sure you'll be providing it to the police won't you?
> 
> Details of how here: http://content.met.police.uk/Appeal...traffic-collision/1400003474066/1257246745782
> 
> Let us know what you do?



As I mentioned  before I really was there between 11.30 - 12.00 am and I saw the accident, but I have nothing to say to the police. Everything happened so fast that I only saw the lorry and her bike and her body when the lorry moved. I didn't see how it happened and whose fault was it. I am not the only one who saw the accident, there were many people at that time near McDonald's.


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## fredfelt (Oct 7, 2011)

Cid said:


> San francisco bay is about as different from Georgia as it is from Melbourne - I think both examples are of limited help, but Gavman was at least coming from a 'look I can dig up a random article too' perspective than a 'here are my FACTS' one. In reality, as in your link (well, I assume from the abstract), the best way to do it is probably meta-analysis of data relating to number of accidents, types of vehicles, outcomes of court cases etc.



The point remains.  When looking for this kind of information getting 'facts' from a different country is problematic.  Better to look towards the country under discussion.  Also when the report is funded by the transport authority of the city in question it's harder to dismiss.

Regardless of the report I piped up as it seemed the victim was being blamed.  That left a bad taste in my mouth when the victim has just had their head crushed by a lorry.


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## NickF24 (Oct 13, 2011)

lllmax said:


> I am in the same year at Saint Martins as this poor girl, she was killed on her first day back at university. She wouldn't have died if our campus hadn't been moved to King's Cross. The students and teachers on the fashion course didn't want to move from charing cross and it's completely irresponsible to move students to an incomplete building that is surrounded by building sites. I would be interested to know if that lorry was from one of these sites on the king's cross redevelopment area. So sad, just awful.



Hi Max,

I'm doing a story for the Arts London News about the tragic accident last week. Would you be willing to answer a couple of questions for the article? If you're up for it, you can drop me an email at nicktravelling20@hotmail.co.uk

Regards

Nick


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## Crispy (Oct 13, 2011)

NickF24 said:


> Hi Max,
> 
> I'm doing a story for the Arts London News about the tragic accident last week. Would you be willing to answer a couple of questions for the article? If you're up for it, you can drop me an email at nicktravelling20@hotmail.co.uk
> 
> ...



Would be a good idea to start a private Conversation with the poster, so they get an email notification


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## NickF24 (Oct 13, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Would be a good idea to start a private Conversation with the poster, so they get an email notification



I'm new to this. How do you start a private conversation? Sorry for the bother.


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## Crispy (Oct 13, 2011)

No bother 
Click their username on the left of this page. Then click Start Conversation


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## toblerone3 (Oct 14, 2011)

Seems as though TfL have suppressed a report* on this junction which they commissioned three years ago and which heavily criticised the York Way/Pentonville Road junction**. There is now talk of pursuing a corporate manslaughter charge against TfL.

http://www.kingscrossenvironment.co...-and-injuries-tfl-corporate-manslaughter.html

*
They were eventually forced to release details of the report following a Freedom of Information request.

****​*The TfL-managed York Way, Pentonville Road junction complex was especially heavily criticised. *​*In respect of this junction the report noted that: *​
*‘road markings are faded and the crossing space is no longer clear’ (p32)*​
*‘it is notable just how aggressive vehicles are at this point’ *​
*‘auditors felt that casualties were inevitable...auditors felt that vehicle speeds should be reduced..the carriageway surface was uneven’ *​
*‘the key crossing location at the southern end of York way should be redesigned’ (p100)*​
*The report called for ‘proper traffic calming measures’ and ‘enforcing/revising speed limits’ (pages 65-66)*​
*..reduce traffic speeds around the junction by installing traffic calming measures (p72)*​


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## IC3D (Oct 14, 2011)

Cyclists should be made aware of the marked routes around Kingsx for avoiding this junction, I'm not sure how clearly they are signed I found them myself or was shown by friends. The route north is ossulston st going through Summerstown


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## toblerone3 (Oct 14, 2011)

The Gordon Street/Melton Street Crossing of the Euston Road is a good one and one that I often used although you need to make use of the ASLs and position yourself firmly in front of any vehicles waiting at the lights.

The Penton Street Amwell Street crossing of the Euston Road needs care. It is a notorious accident blackspot. There are often flowers attached to the lampposts there.

Cant recall exactly how cyclists are protected in their right turns at the Ossulton Road crossing.


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## ska invita (Oct 17, 2011)

This has haunted me a little - although i only read about it, the image of what happened keeps popping into my mind.

There a local campaign brewing about it - consdiering the line of corporate manslaughter by TfL.  http://www.kingscrossenvironment.co...alEnvironment+(Kings+Cross+Local+Environment)



> Local residents have long campaigned for improvement of the dangerous junctions at the York Way, Pentonville, Grays Inn Road intersection. In February 2008 a number of us took part in a walkabout with TfL-commissioned contractors TRL limited and Living Streets for a report into the Kings Cross street environment.
> Some months later residents received informal feedback that TfL wasn’t going to publish the report. In October 2008 I used FOI to force publication of the report for this website. The report was damning of the entire street environment in Kings Cross. Sober engineer speak was interspersed with phrases like ‘highly dangerous’.
> The TfL-managed York Way, Pentonville Road junction complex was especially heavily criticised.
> In respect of this junction the report noted that:
> ...


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## MrSki (Oct 18, 2011)

I caught the end of a piece on BBC London News at lunchtime talking about the corporate manslaughter charges but missed the main part.

Probably be repeated in the longer evening edition.


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## plurker (Oct 18, 2011)

Didn't know whether to start a new thread or not, but a lucky escape for this lady at London Bridge today, yet another bike under an HGV...go careful out there...

http://londonist.com/2011/10/amazing-escape-in-cyclistlorry-crash-in-london-bridge.php


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## Ponyutd (Oct 18, 2011)

.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 19, 2011)

plurker said:


> Didn't know whether to start a new thread or not, but a lucky escape for this lady at London Bridge today, yet another bike under an HGV...go careful out there...
> 
> http://londonist.com/2011/10/amazing-escape-in-cyclistlorry-crash-in-london-bridge.php



Looks like one situation where I would be going through before the lights were green - certainly inventing an imaginary ASL- assuming the lorry came up behind her, and not that she filtered past and sat in front of it ... but not a situation to have your chain snap or even jump ...

Shocking that the driver chose to be so sealed-up in his cab he couldn't hear her screams from just below his windscreen.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 19, 2011)

BBC London piece from last night on the junction and the accident

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15355659


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## gentlegreen (Oct 19, 2011)

It looks about as appealing as cycling into a giant food processor.

Tragic that people getting behind the wheels of killing machines can't be relied upon to adjust their speed and general attitude  accordingly.


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## gavman (Oct 19, 2011)

bit early to be drawing that conclusion, surely?
and in defence of the driver, the positioning of the cyclist requires some explanation


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## Orang Utan (Oct 19, 2011)

more big lorries are coming to london:
http://lcc.org.uk/articles/governme...n-our-streets-increasing-the-risk-to-cyclists


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## Geri (Oct 19, 2011)

There's only one part of my journey which involves riding on a road which HGVs may be on, and I although there is a cycle lane, I must admit I worry about the prospect of undertaking buses/lorries on it. Starting to wonder if I would be better off on the pavement, which is massively wide.


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## baldrick (Oct 19, 2011)

Geri said:


> There's only one part of my journey which involves riding on a road which HGVs may be on, and I although there is a cycle lane, I must admit I worry about the prospect of undertaking buses/lorries on it. Starting to wonder if I would be better off on the pavement, which is massively wide.


I would never undertake a bus/HGV using a cycle lane if there were lights/a roundabout coming up. I think they do place cyclists in a vulnerable road position in that a cycle lane isn't always the best place to be yet cyclists are encouraged to use them and they are often perceived as being safer than just being on the road with other traffic.


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## Geri (Oct 19, 2011)

baldrick said:


> I would never undertake a bus/HGV using a cycle lane if there were lights/a roundabout coming up. I think they do place cyclists in a vulnerable road position in that a cycle lane isn't always the best place to be yet cyclists are encouraged to use them and they are often perceived as being safer than just being on the road with other traffic.



The worst thing about it is that it ends very suddenly, and unless you make a conscious decision to move out to the right, you are suddenly almost in the gutter with cars cutting you up, as it's an approach road to the M32.


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## Cid (Oct 20, 2011)

gentlegreen said:


> It looks about as appealing as cycling into a giant food processor.
> 
> Tragic that people getting behind the wheels of killing machines can't be relied upon to adjust their speed and general attitude accordingly.



To be fair the woman in the report is a pretty good example of how not to deal with that junction. Think I mentioned earlier in the thread that I've used it extensively over the years, the design is piss-poor, but provided you keep a level head and have a reasonable road sense it's not all that bad. Mind you I just ignore the reds, so can position myself ahead of any traffic in clear view. Salutary lesson in why we need more advanced stop boxes, and why drivers need to be forced not to ignore them.


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## baldrick (Oct 20, 2011)

Geri said:


> The worst thing about it is that it ends very suddenly, and unless you make a conscious decision to move out to the right, you are suddenly almost in the gutter with cars cutting you up, as it's an approach road to the M32.


christ almighty.

there's loads like that around here though, especially ones that encourage cyclists into the left hand lane of roundabouts, if you want to turn right it puts you in a dangerous position.

i do see bad cycling around though and cycle lane stupidity on the part of councils just encourages it.  unless there is room to have segregated cycle lanes away from other traffic I think they should just not bother.  they do more harm than good imo.


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## MrSki (Oct 24, 2011)

Another accident between a cyclist & a bus last Thursday morning at the junction of Pentonville Road & King's Cross Road.

Thankfully not a fatality but an ambulance case.


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## plurker (Oct 24, 2011)

just seen that there's a ghost bike being placed this Wed, 26th, at 6.30 if anyone's interested...
http://cycling-intelligence.com/2011/10/24/a-ghost-bike-for-min-joo-lee/


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 24, 2011)

baldrick said:


> christ almighty.
> i do see bad cycling around though and cycle lane stupidity on the part of councils just encourages it. unless there is room to have segregated cycle lanes away from other traffic I think they should just not bother. they do more harm than good imo.



What do we think about cyclists *not* using the segregated cycle lanes?  We have them at the Tottenham Hale gyratory - we need them there - it's dangerous - I use them, they are not on the road. But lots of cyclists don't use them?
And I saw a really horrible collision -cyclist and double decker bus - in the bus lane when there was a cycle path on the pavement right next to it.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 24, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> What do we think about cyclists *not* using the segregated cycle lanes? We have them at the Tottenham Hale gyratory - we need them there - it's dangerous - I use them, they are not on the road. But lots of cyclists don't use them?
> And I saw a really horrible collision -cyclist and double decker bus - in the bus lane when there was a cycle path on the pavement right next to it.


as i said earlier, i prefer to stay on the road. you can't go too fast on paths.


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## baldrick (Oct 24, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> What do we think about cyclists *not* using the segregated cycle lanes? We have them at the Tottenham Hale gyratory - we need them there - it's dangerous - I use them, they are not on the road. But lots of cyclists don't use them?
> And I saw a really horrible collision -cyclist and double decker bus - in the bus lane when there was a cycle path on the pavement right next to it.


I can't condemn someone for not using a cycle lane even when it is dangerous not to.  I think a lot of confident cyclists will do as OU does and use the road regardless, because it is quicker.

I don't know what the cycle lane is like there, but I suspect that person didn't use it because it puts them in the same position as pedestrians if it is on the pavement - having to use pedestrian crossings, or give vehicular traffic priority.  Which brings me back to the point of most cycle lanes not being well-designed.  I don't know what the answer is, but there must be a way of building cycle lanes so they are both safe and fast?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 24, 2011)

baldrick said:


> I don't know what the cycle lane is like there, but I suspect that person didn't use it because it puts them in the same position as pedestrians if it is on the pavement - having to use pedestrian crossings, or give vehicular traffic priority. Which brings me back to the point of most cycle lanes not being well-designed. I don't know what the answer is, but there must be a way of building cycle lanes so they are both safe and fast?


i was talking about cycle paths rather than lanes. i think it would be very difficult to have a safe, fast cycle path as it would have to be very wide and pedestrians would have to be fenced off from them.


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## baldrick (Oct 24, 2011)

yeah, my terminology is confused.  i was on about cycle paths


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## Orang Utan (Oct 25, 2011)

here's are pics i took today of traffic in kennington completely oblivious to the blue-laned cycle superhighways. even cop vehicles are flouting the law (or is it law actually?).


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## toblerone3 (Oct 25, 2011)

pinkmonkey said:


> What do we think about cyclists *not* using the segregated cycle lanes? We have them at the Tottenham Hale gyratory - we need them there - it's dangerous - I use them, they are not on the road. But lots of cyclists don't use them?
> And I saw a really horrible collision -cyclist and double decker bus - in the bus lane when there was a cycle path on the pavement right next to it.



Tottenham Hale gyratory is incredibly dangerous for cyclists. Very scary.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 25, 2011)

About Cycle SuperHighway Seven and the encroaching lorries. What the fuck is the point of building it if that is the way it gets abused?


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## Greebo (Oct 25, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> here's are pics i took today of traffic in kennington completely oblivious to the blue-laned cycle superhighways. even cop vehicles are flouting the law (or is it law actually?).<snip>


OMFG!   I've been in extremely heavy traffic on dual carriageways but it felt safe compared with how that looks.


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## Greebo (Oct 25, 2011)

toblerone3 said:


> About Cycle SuperHighway Seven and the encroaching lorries. What the fuck is the point of building it if that is the way it gets abused?


^^^this.  Signpost recommended routes for cyclists by all means, but stop giving a false sense of security with those cycle lanes.


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 25, 2011)

toblerone3 said:


> Tottenham Hale gyratory is incredibly dangerous for cyclists. Very scary.


yep -what's more important? Getting to work a few seconds earlier or avoiding injury or worse?


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## Ae589 (Oct 26, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> here's are pics i took today of traffic in kennington completely oblivious to the blue-laned cycle superhighways. even cop vehicles are flouting the law (or is it law actually?).



Jesus.


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## gentlegreen (Oct 26, 2011)

((((city cyclists))))

They should make Boris ride that.

If he had any decency he would volunteer and make a statement out of it.


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## Crispy (Oct 26, 2011)

And the sad thing is, that road is 5 lanes wide, with huge pavements. There's enough space for a 2m wide, fully segregated cycle path.


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## baffled (Oct 26, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15440182

A 58 year old man died on the Bow superhighway, he was involved in a collision with a lorry on Monday night.

Edit; I see there is a separate thread on this.


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## toblerone3 (Oct 26, 2011)

A White bicycle was placed at the scene of the Kings Cross accident by well wishers and friends of Deep Lee tonight.

Deep Lee (Min Joo Lee) 24 years old 3rd October 2011 Rest in Peace


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## ska invita (Oct 27, 2011)

toblerone3 said:


> A White bicycle was placed at the scene of the Kings Cross accident by well wishers and friends of Deep Lee tonight.
> 
> Deep Lee (Min Joo Lee) 24 years old 3rd October 2011 Rest in Peace



Saw this late last night, and very moving it is too.

I think this kind of thing is called a Ghost Bike, and its not the only one in London:
ghostbikes.org/london
ghostbikes.org/ghostbikemap/London
(site down at this moment in time)

wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_bike


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## toblerone3 (Oct 30, 2011)

This is new. A Kings Cross Road Safety issues map with some of the comments on the roads and crossings in the area. Creation of this map was prompted by this tragic death.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ms...0&ll=51.531174,-0.120528&spn=0.007675,0.01929


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## toblerone3 (Dec 10, 2011)

TfL is resisting pressure to install a cycle lane at the junction, saying that it would cause delays. They also want to remove Deep Lee's Ghost Bike. Brian Paddick is getting involved.

http://www.camdennewjournal.com/news/2011/dec/death-spot-road-anger


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## Detroit City (Dec 10, 2011)

what a shame


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 10, 2011)

Sad story, but someone should have a quiet word with Tom Foot of the Camden New Journal and advise him to stay away from journalism. And if that doesn't work, his laptop will have to be confiscated and his fingers broken.



> The death of the promising 24-year-old Central St Martins student has plunged boyfriend Kenji Hirasawa into a whirlpool of despair.
> 
> Kenji – a Japanese photographer specialising in infra-red images which bring a subject’s life-force to the fore  – said he was struggling to reconcile his art with her death.
> 
> On Monday night, Kenji listened patiently in the Town Hall chamber – a perfect picture of dignity in his blue suit with top shirt button done up – as council officials argued they were mostly meeting cycle safety targets in a presentation of endless graphs and pie charts.


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## gentlegreen (Dec 10, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Sad story, but someone should have a quiet word with Tom Foot of the Camden New Journal and advise him to stay away from journalism. And if that doesn't work, his laptop will have to be confiscated and his fingers broken.



It's seems to be all about the men's fashion connection - I'm sure it's very "clever" in his mind :-



> Wearing a wide-brimmed fedora hat and trenchcoat, the Lib Dem candidate in the London Mayoral race toured King’s Cross at rush hour.


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## fakeplasticgirl (Dec 10, 2011)




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## Diamond (Dec 15, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Sad story, but someone should have a quiet word with Tom Foot of the Camden New Journal and advise him to stay away from journalism. And if that doesn't work, his laptop will have to be confiscated and his fingers broken.



I don't know, it's a bit over blown but I quite like the refreshingly descriptive approach.

Modern journalism is so often about grinding out the hard facts in a pithy, cliche ridden style.

Journalism from a few generations back was much more entertaining.


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## fjydj (Dec 19, 2011)

Theres a vigil tomorrow evening at Kings Cross:

Tuesday 20 December, at 6pm outside Kings Cross station, there's a chance for all Londoners to gather to remember everyone who's died on our roads this year.

2011 has been a particularly bad year for cyclist fatalities, with 16 losing their lives on the capital's streets.

On Tuesday we'll be calling on the Mayor to put our safety above traffic flow, and asking why cyclists in London are twice as likely to be killed on our streets than they are in the cycle-friendly countries like the Netherlands.

http://lcc.org.uk/articles/kings-cro...s-as-the-dutch

Spread the word!

more here:

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2011/12/kings-cross-christmas-vigil-16-deaths.html


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## plurker (Dec 21, 2011)

fjydj said:


> On Tuesday we'll be calling on the Mayor to put our safety above traffic flow,



A success, of sorts:

*TfL said yesterday: *
_“The Kings Cross one way system is a critical and complex part of the strategic network. Although changes have been made to it, it is acknowledged that there has not been a wide ongoing review looking at options for radical change up to and including removal. *To address this discussions are commencing with LB Islington and LB Camden to scope out and undertake such a review in the New Year.”*_

http://kingscrossenvironment.com/2011/12/21/tfl-shifts-on-kx-killer-gyratory/


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## toblerone3 (Dec 23, 2011)

I think the change of heart at TfL is a potentially massive step forward. They are not just considering one junction or crossing now but the possible removal of the whole Kings Cross gyratory.






Its amazing to think that this thread has played a role in making this change happen. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16300698


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## Orang Utan (Dec 23, 2011)

Good news, but how has this thread played role?


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## MrSki (Jan 9, 2012)

Protest tonight at 6pm.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...plan-blockade-of-deadly-junction-6286999.html


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## 19sixtysix (Jan 9, 2012)

Glad it was bumped already for the protest this evening.

http://bikesalive.wordpress.com/


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## gentlegreen (Jan 9, 2012)

The WI have decided helmets should be compulsory :-

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2011/12/cycle-helmet-laws-on-your-bike-wi.html

petition against their petition :-

http://www.change.org/petitions/to-reject-calls-for-compulsory-helmet-laws


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## toblerone3 (Jan 9, 2012)

Just on my way down there.


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## Winot (Jan 9, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> The WI have decided helmets should be compulsory :-
> 
> http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2011/12/cycle-helmet-laws-on-your-bike-wi.html
> 
> ...



Signed


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## toblerone3 (Jan 9, 2012)

Winot said:


> Signed



Which one?


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## Brixton Hatter (Jan 10, 2012)

it looks like a cyclist was killed or seriously injured on Victoria Street this morning/lunchtime at the junction with Artillery Row. I didn't see it myself but the road was closed and I saw a mangled bike surrounded by police photographers. My colleague reported seeing a body bag. 

Fed up with this sh!t.....


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## snowy_again (Jan 10, 2012)

Injured apparently (there's some twitter feed from the ambulance crew) - another left turning lorry. Second cyclist who went to look after the first cyclist was then also hit by some vehicle. http://www.lfgss.com/thread78154.html


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## toblerone3 (Jan 16, 2012)

Next critical mass traffic calming at Kings Cross is in the evening rush hour on January 23rd from 6pm to 7pm.

http://bikesalive.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/we-ride-again/


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## fjydj (Jan 22, 2012)

Tomorrow 6 - 7 pm


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## plurker (Jan 27, 2012)

Yet another rider under an HGV today, just seen on Twitter. GWS rider.

_ @Ldn_Ambulance We treated a 38yo male cyclist for pelvic & lower limb injuries following a collision with a lorry in EC3 this pm & tk him to Royal Ldn Hosp_


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## editor (Feb 28, 2012)

I've posted a piece about the Bikes Alive campaign on my blog:
http://www.urban75.org/blog/ghost-b...ass-and-the-fight-for-safe-cycling-in-london/


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## toblerone3 (Mar 1, 2012)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3336152.ece

Met Police now considering a corporate manslaughter charge against TfL


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## toblerone3 (Apr 10, 2014)

edeeta said:


> I was there yesterday and saw everything. The lorry hasn't even stopped after the accident. Woman's head was crushed and her brains were on the road. At least this is what I saw. People were screaming. I didn't want to watch at her for too long so I run away from that place as soon as possible... If she had a helmet on maybe she would be alive today..


 p

Just liked this comment, but I mean to support the poster, not to like what he or she saw. Not sure about the helmet comment though.


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