# The Secret History Of Our Streets BBC2 series



## Gingerman (Jun 6, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01jt9bv
Looks interesting


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2012)

Ooh ta for the heads up. I'm staying in Deptford at the mo and its high street is a curious place.


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## marty21 (Jun 6, 2012)

It was very interesting - 6 part series too - next week Camberwell


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2012)

That was a really good programme!


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## Gingerman (Jun 6, 2012)

marty21 said:


> It was very interesting - 6 part series too - next week Camberwell


 Camberwell Grove,Caledonian Road,Portland Road,Reverdy Road and Arnold Circus going to be featured over the comming weeks.


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## marty21 (Jun 6, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Camberwell Grove,Caledonian Road,Portland Road,Reverdy Road and Arnold Circus going to be featured over the comming weeks.


cheers - there's plenty of mileage in this series - they could do loads more streets - could end up as a urban 'Coast'.


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## spanglechick (Jun 6, 2012)

looking forward to next week.


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## danski (Jun 6, 2012)

Yes, most enjoyable.
Also infuriating that the council had an agenda to knock down the "slums" regardless of the fact they were not.


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## cybertect (Jun 6, 2012)

Annoyingly unnecessary appearance of subtitles whenever a black person was speaking with an accent, though they were easily understood without. You wonder why they didn't also subtitle the Deptford natives for viewers outside London. :-?

That aside it was fascinating dissection of Deptford's history.


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## Gingerman (Jun 6, 2012)

Love stuff like this,always been facinated by the history of London and how its changed over the years.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2012)

cybertect said:


> Annoyingly unnecessary appearance of subtitles whenever a black person was speaking with an accent, though they were easily understood without. You wonder why they didn't also subtitle the Deptford natives for viewers outside London. :-?
> 
> That aside it was fascinating dissection of Deptford's history.


They did it with a couple of the old white ladies


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## nagapie (Jun 6, 2012)

Very interesting and sad. Reminded me of the history of District Six and Sophiatown in South Africa in terms of clearance and breaking up communities.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 6, 2012)

cybertect said:


> Annoyingly unnecessary appearance of subtitles whenever a black person was speaking with an accent, though they were easily understood without. You wonder why they didn't also subtitle the Deptford natives for viewers outside London. :-?
> 
> That aside it was fascinating dissection of Deptford's history.


 
yes

it also grated that they used the Americanism of referring to streets as "Reginald" or "Albury" not "Albury Street"  

Would now be a good time to mention the series of radical history walks that Past Tense are doing - first one (this Saturday - 9 June) is Deptford - Camberwell is in October.  More at Transpontine 

I did start a thread about them but it died a sad and lonely death 

I hope to get there on Saturday.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 6, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Transpontine
> 
> I did start a thread about them but it died a sad and lonely death


 

(((Puddy_Tat)))


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## oryx (Jun 6, 2012)

danski said:


> Yes, most enjoyable.
> Also infuriating that the council had an agenda to knock down the "slums" regardless of the fact they were not.


 
Just been watching this with my partner who grew up in one of the non-slum, subsequently demolished old houses on the other side of the high street to Reginald Road.

The interesting thing is: what *was* their agenda?

Was it the classic urban renewal argument of replacing old, overcrowded and bathroomless houses with shiny new flats which were shoddily built and alienating, or was it something more sinister, such as backhanders to landlords?

Of course, there was not the historical perspective of knowing that jerry-built concrete blocks would quickly become little better than slums, or at best were a wrench from family and established communities. Nor was there the rampant gentrification of old Victorian streets, which was just beginning then but was a new social phenomenon.


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## sleaterkinney (Jun 6, 2012)

danski said:


> Yes, most enjoyable.
> Also infuriating that the council had an agenda to knock down the "slums" regardless of the fact they were not.


Just one big experiment.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2012)

I wish they'd spent a bit more time on the street drinking culture. Never seen owt like it in London.


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## ska invita (Jun 6, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> it also grated that they used the Americanism of referring to streets as "Reginald" or "Albury" not "Albury Street"


 
havent watched, sounds great - re only mentioning the first part of a street name and dropping the street or road, i dont know about the states, but thats an old skool London thing too. 

Camberwell Grove will be a good one - ive read the Past Tense thing on Camberwell - its online here too -
http://www.alphabetthreat.co.uk/pasttense/camberwell.html 
Camberwell dodgy as fuck since 1802!!


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## ska invita (Jun 6, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I wish they'd spent a bit more time on the street drinking culture. Never seen owt like it in London.


i reckon it dates back to the sailors and such


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2012)

Yeah, I don't agree with the priest, but I liked the idea - well psychogeographic!


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## ska invita (Jun 6, 2012)

Deptford the site of many a press gang-ing - I only found out what a press gang was the other day (apart from that kids show) - the navy would come round beat the shit out of you and throw you on their boat and force you to be a sailor for them, to fight in their endless wars for the crown. Once there you could 'volunteer' and get paid a pitance, or else stay on with your pride and get fuck all. This went on for a couple of hundred years


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## cybertect (Jun 6, 2012)

oryx said:


> The interesting thing is: what *was* their agenda?
> 
> Was it the classic urban renewal argument of replacing old, overcrowded and bathroomless houses with shiny new flats which were shoddily built and alienating, or was it something more sinister, such as backhanders to landlords?


 
I may be proved wrong, but the programme seemed to suggest that Reginald Road was mostly in owner-occupation by the time Compulsory Purchase Orders were served by the council.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2012)

Belushi was telling me just last week that Peter The Great studied shipbuilding here for three years. It's an interesting place alright


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 6, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Belushi was telling me just last week that Peter The Great studied shipbuilding here for three years. It's an interesting place alright


Yes, John Evelyn mentions it in his diaries. Peter the Great was a terrible tenant. He wrecked all Evelyn's beautiful hedges and flowerbeds by careering around in a wheelbarrow being furiously and recklessly propelled around the garden by his manservant.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 6, 2012)

Missed it.  Any repeats on TV?


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 6, 2012)

More Deptford history at

Deptford Is

Deptford Dame

Old Deptford History

Shipwrights Palace

ETA - more about Peter the Great in London / Deptford here


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## Orang Utan (Jun 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Missed it.  Any repeats on TV?


The OP says next Tuesday BBC2 23.20 
Also on iplayer


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## Gingerman (Jun 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Missed it. Any repeats on TV?


 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod..._History_of_Our_Streets_Deptford_High_Street/


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## Orang Utan (Jun 7, 2012)

Some grumbling about it being too negative here: http://t.co/tNBSMHYW


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 7, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> The OP says next Tuesday BBC2 23.20
> Also on iplayer


 
Cheers, will try to catch it next week then.  Don't like watching programmes on iplayer


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## ska invita (Jun 7, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Some grumbling about it being too negative here: http://t.co/tNBSMHYW


...i bet thats why they left out the street drinking 

just watching now - "despite their working class origins, one in three shopkeeping families keeps at least one domestic servant"... sounds like a thread for urban


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## ska invita (Jun 7, 2012)

ska invita said:


> Deptford the site of many a press gang-ing -


sounds like that man archie, the stowaway from jamaica, effectively got press ganged - he came out of prison (for his stowaway offence) and the military police were waiting for him and signed him up and sent him to suez...1956


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## ska invita (Jun 7, 2012)

i think the exact same thing is true of Rye Lane as Deptford Hight Street...


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## ska invita (Jun 7, 2012)

...i think its fair to say the destruction of the original housing to be replaced with lo-rise blocks was another one to mark down on the list of mistakes in the name of socialist progress.

great show, cant wait for the rest


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## Chz (Jun 7, 2012)

It was a great show, but they had their job padding it out to the full hour. I must've seen the same bloody photographs at least half a dozen times over. It could have easily been a tight, little half hour programme. God help them if some of the other areas don't have quite the characters to interview that Deptford has. 

Also thought it was weird they covered the Evelyn Estate, given that it's a fair old distance from the High Street.


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## ElizabethofYork (Jun 7, 2012)

I'm looking forward to the Caledonian Road one.  I lived in a terraced "slum" in the 60s, in that area, and my family was moved out of there and into a high rise council estate.


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## ska invita (Jun 7, 2012)

Chz said:


> It was a great show, but they had their job padding it out to the full hour. I must've seen the same bloody photographs at least half a dozen times over. It could have easily been a tight, little half hour programme. God help them if some of the other areas don't have quite the characters to interview that Deptford has.


Agreed - Id have like to have heard a bit more of the naval history of the area


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 7, 2012)

ska invita said:


> Agreed - Id have like to have heard a bit more of the naval history of the area


 
indeed.

The Navy (Royal Dockyard etc) was pretty much the reason for Deptford's existence in the first place, the reason for the substantial town houses in Albury Street (for example) being built and its population growth, then the employment boom and bust reflecting of war and peace, and the final closure of the dockyard all being pretty significant in Deptford's changing fortunes.


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## bromley (Jun 8, 2012)

ska invita said:


> i think the exact same thing is true of Rye Lane as Deptford Hight Street...


I think you're right, I find the two streets very similar.

Brilliant programme.


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## ska invita (Jun 8, 2012)

bromley said:


> I think you're right, I find the two streets very similar.
> 
> Brilliant programme.


i worked on rye lane for a few years, my boss was an old timer (windrush generation jamaican ex-soldier), he remembers rye lane as a similarly grand shopping street. Bellenden Road side has survived the wrecking ball, but to the north and east it must have gotten flattened.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 8, 2012)

Interesting take on this week's prog here on 'Crosswhatfields?' blog (and I'd recommend the book 'Turning the Tide')


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## marty21 (Jun 8, 2012)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I'm looking forward to the Caledonian Road one. I lived in a terraced "slum" in the 60s, in that area, and my family was moved out of there and into a high rise council estate.


 I work near the Caldedonian Rd, so it will be interesting to see that programme


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## oryx (Jun 8, 2012)

cybertect said:


> I may be proved wrong, but the programme seemed to suggest that Reginald Road was mostly in owner-occupation by the time Compulsory Purchase Orders were served by the council.


 
I think you're right - the programme certainly mentioned owner-occupation. The thing was, if a propoerty was deemed unfit, the less it was worth in terms of compensation if a CPO was done.


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## oryx (Jun 8, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Interesting take on this week's prog here on 'Crosswhatfields?' blog (and I'd recommend the book 'Turning the Tide')


 
Great link - thanks for that. The book sounds really interesting and have already flagged it up to my Deptford-born partner, who I suspect will buy it ASAP!


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 8, 2012)

Another tangent of Deptford history that I can't remember being mentioned was early trade union activity, e.g. John Gast.  There is a book (other booksellers are available) which I haven't got round to reading thoroughly yet...


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## nagapie (Jun 8, 2012)

Do you think some of these people would have a claim for compensation now? I mean there are documents saying their houses were fine and yet they were told they weren't and forcibly removed. Now those houses would be worth a lot.


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## Chz (Jun 9, 2012)

No, compulsory purchase orders don't work like that. The council doesn't *have* to have a good reason to issue them, it just looks a lot better and goes easier if they do.

(At least at the time in question. They have to demonstrate that it's "in the public interest" now. Pretty broad.)


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## Cloo (Jun 10, 2012)

ska invita said:


> ...i bet thats why they left out the street drinking
> 
> just watching now - "despite their working class origins, one in three shopkeeping families keeps at least one domestic servant"... sounds like a thread for urban


That line reminded me about some stuff my dad found out about his family when doing the family tree. Some census (or similar) in about 1900 said that my great-grandmother's family, living on Brick Lane, had a servant, and they wouldn't have been very well off - a shopkeeping family in a working class area.

Nagapie - I also wondered whether those people might be able to claim something as it seems blatantly to be the case that their homes didn't need to be pulled down.

Fascinating programme overall.


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## Chz (Jun 10, 2012)

Lewisham may have claimed the houses were in a poor state to make things flow easier, but it's irrelevant. They were perfectly within their rights to say "Look, we want to build a giant estate here and your house is in the middle of it. Get out." 

It wouldn't have even affected the price they were paid under the CPO. Back then, they'd normally just assign a value to the entire street so you were screwed a bit if your neighbours were running their own rubbish tip.


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## Cloo (Jun 10, 2012)

Interesting what it says on the blog about the councillor being misrepresented - I noticed there were a lot of cuts in his interviews and I did wonder if he was being done over.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 10, 2012)

He did get a bit of a kicking considering he never made the decision and actually disagreed with a lot of the policy


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## scanner (Jun 10, 2012)

Not visited Deptford for many years, I'm wondering if Carrington House still exists ?


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 10, 2012)

scanner said:


> Not visited Deptford for many years, I'm wondering if Carrington House still exists ?


 
Yes and no.

The building is still there (it's a listed building), but it was converted to flats in the 1990s

more on old deptford history

likewise on domesticated bohemian


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## tommers (Jun 11, 2012)

My mum's a bit upset that apparently she used to live in a slum.


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## ringo (Jun 11, 2012)

Great bit of telly, looking forward to the Camberwell one. Spoiled at the mo with these and the London market documentaries. Have recorded Jools' show on London music to catch up on this week too.


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## Maggot (Jun 19, 2012)

I missed most of the Camberwell one cos of the football. It's repeated tonight at 11.20. 

What are these London market documentaries, Ringo?


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## Orang Utan (Jun 19, 2012)

Maggot said:


> I missed most of the Camberwell one cos of the football. It's repeated tonight at 11.20.
> 
> What are these London market documentaries, Ringo?


Check em on iplayer - they're great.
There's another series about London on film which looks interesting too.
Think it's all part of a season of programmes about London


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## DJWrongspeed (Jun 19, 2012)

Really enjoyed the Camberwell Grove one. The 'Neo-Georgian' movement really started there in the early70s it seems. Opens up an interesting self-interest vs preservation argument. Intriguing watching the change in population over the years.


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## ringo (Jun 19, 2012)

Thses are the London markets programmes - really good, especially the Billingsgate one, the porters were nuts.

I missed the Camberwell one, will have to record it tonight if I didn't already.


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## Chz (Jun 19, 2012)

Overall, I liked the Camberwell Grove one. But there was one particular couple that for some reason I really, really just wanted to punch in the face. Not as good as Deptford, either. I look forward to finding out there was a time when the entirety of Caledonian Road wasn't a shithole.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 19, 2012)

Repeat of Camberwell Grove one on BBC2 now


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## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2012)

it's on iplayer till round 18/7


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## Gingerman (Jun 20, 2012)

Caledonian Road tonight


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## IC3D (Jun 20, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Caledonian Road tonight


Nice one, should be very interesting.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 20, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Caledonian Road tonight


I have a very soft spot for the Caledonian Road as it was what got two teenage boys who did not do books, and lived on the Caledonian Road, reading up about their area in a library in that excellent book, The London Encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_London_Encyclopaedia
They didn't even stop when the breaktime bell went


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## marty21 (Jun 20, 2012)

must remember to watch this - I work near Callie Rd


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## ringo (Jun 21, 2012)

Another corker. The amount of time spent on the town planning aspect in this series could be really dull if done badly but when entwined with the effect on real people and their communities it makes it whole and brings it to life. Top notch tellybox.

Love the old footage, a huge cattle market in central London just seems bizarre now, even though I remember my Uncles taking the stock down to the same in my home town. Slightly shocked when the old geezer suggested that when the calves were at market the pervs used to turn up and get blow jobs from them.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 21, 2012)

I was more shocked when he told us about a colleague slitting his own throat in the abattoir  The landlady was mesmerising - she was so quietly beautiful. 

Where are they doing next? TELL ME!


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## Gingerman (Jun 21, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> I was more shocked when he told us about a colleague slitting his own throat in the abattoir  The landlady was mesmerising - she was so quietly beautiful.
> 
> Where are they doing next? TELL ME!


Portland Road W11,the landlady was indeed  attractive,looked damn good for 53,did'nt like that property guy,one  of those chancers who doesn't believe in planning permission,bet he dos'nt give a shit about building regulations either,came across as a bit of a Rachmann type,hope someone from the council was watching,the bit about the dirty old men and the suckling calves was


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## Orang Utan (Jun 21, 2012)

The old geezer sounded like he was making up most of the stories he told


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## spliff (Jun 21, 2012)

5t3IIa said:


> The landlady was mesmerising - she was so quietly beautiful.


I thought she was wonderful. 


5t3IIa said:


> Where are they doing next? TELL ME!


As Gingerman says, Portland Road. So we should get to see The Winchester Club. 
http://www.minder.org/locations/loc_winchester.htm


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## ringo (Jun 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> The old geezer sounded like he was making up most of the stories he told


 
I didn't think that at all.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 21, 2012)

Really? He sounded like one of those pub man-and-boy fabulists. Didn't believe a word he said.


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## marty21 (Jun 21, 2012)

ringo said:


> Another corker. The amount of time spent on the town planning aspect in this series could be really dull if done badly but when entwined with the effect on real people and their communities it makes it whole and brings it to life. Top notch tellybox.
> 
> Love the old footage, a huge cattle market in central London just seems bizarre now, even though I remember my Uncles taking the stock down to the same in my home town. Slightly shocked when the old geezer suggested that when the calves were at market the pervs used to turn up and get blow jobs from them.


 that old fellah was comedy gold - didn't believe everything he said - particularly the bovine BJ perves.

very interesting  - that Landlord who has bought up a lot of the street - the flats underground  I will take a wander down the Callie soon - will pop into that pub


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Really? He sounded like one of those pub man-and-boy fabulists. Didn't believe a word he said.


Your loss


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> The old geezer sounded like he was making up most of the stories he told


How do you get from 'making up most of it' to 'didn't believe a word of it'?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2012)

Didn't the prince used to be the islington? And the pub opposite, kennedy's, iirc that was the edinburgh before.


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## Thimble Queen (Jun 21, 2012)

Looking forward to watching this on catch up tonight


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## Orang Utan (Jun 21, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> How do you get from 'making up most of it' to 'didn't believe a word of it'?


Hyperbole


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Hyperbole


Not for the first time you're talking a load of hyperbollocks


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## Orang Utan (Jun 21, 2012)

Not really. I thought he was telling many a tall tale, esp about the abattoir


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## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Not really. I thought he was telling many a tall tale, esp about the abattoir


i thought you meant your hyperbole.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 21, 2012)

zzzzzzzzz


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## spliff (Jun 21, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> zzzzzzzzz


That's just about it isn't it.
Because maybe you haven't lived a life of incidents like this.
They got to the pub at 5am. got pissed before for the start of work at 7am. and fucked about. I believe the throat cutting story.
I'm more doubtful about the calves cocksucking but that could be childhood gossip that has become etched in stone.


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## toblerone3 (Jun 23, 2012)

Really enjoyed this. Have been photographing the road for a couple of years now. I feel that the comment about the Cally being just like any other road now that its been cleaned up was unfair. Still very few chain stores up there.

Couple of really interesting articles on the local Kings Cross blog. On on planning enforcement and the other on whether the Cally Road is a shithole.

PS still don't know how to do links on words. Do you need to use html to do this?

Eta. I have now applied Maggot's information to my post restrospectively.

"Shithole" is now clickable


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## Maggot (Jun 23, 2012)

Do you mean like this?


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## toblerone3 (Jun 23, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Do you mean like this?


 
Yes that's exactly what I mean.


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## maldwyn (Jun 23, 2012)

That slum landlord certainly warrants further investigation by the Council - the arrogant fucker thinks he's untouchable. 

Amused by the photographer who after years of documenting the seedier side of life from his flat window now thinks the place has become too sanitised.


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## Mr Smin (Jun 23, 2012)

cybertect said:


> Annoyingly unnecessary appearance of subtitles whenever a black person was speaking with an accent, though they were easily understood without. You wonder why they didn't also subtitle the Deptford natives for viewers outside London. :-?


 
Easily understood by you but maybe not by everyone. A colleague of mine was subtitled on a tv programme. He's white and a native english speaker, but he has a strong rural accent. I can understand him but the programme makers thought not everyone could.


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## Maggot (Jun 23, 2012)

toblerone3 said:


> Yes that's exactly what I mean.


Type your post. Select the word you want to use as a link. Click on the chain icon. Paste the link.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 23, 2012)

I did not know that! Cheers!


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 23, 2012)

Chz said:


> Overall, I liked the Camberwell Grove one. But there was one particular couple that for some reason I really, really just wanted to punch in the face. Not as good as Deptford, either. I look forward to finding out there was a time when the entirety of Caledonian Road wasn't a shithole.


 
I had the same reaction to the couple "we're both architects, the kitchen is the spirit of the house, theres 2 people living in a 4 bedroom house, ya?"

Tossers.

Camberwell Grove episode was overall a bit flat, when the older residents made an appearance to discuss renovating the places it perked up a bit though.


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## boohoo (Jun 25, 2012)

Interesting episode (Camberwell Grove) - -went to a party in a squat in the last days of the Grove squats (1994). When the houses was empty, we went to tat the place; with our shopping trolley we walked from Stockwell to Camberwell and back. Good times....


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## Maggot (Jun 25, 2012)

boohoo said:


> Interesting episode (Camberwell Grove) - -went to a party in a squat in the last days of the Grove squats (1994). When the houses was empty, we went to tat the place; with our shopping trolley we walked from Stockwell to Camberwell and back. Good times....


Tat the place?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 25, 2012)

The Caledonian Road landlady really reminded me of Stobart Stopper.


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## Greebo (Jun 25, 2012)

Maggot said:


> Tat the place?


Picking up whatever bits might be useful or sellable, I think.


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## boohoo (Jun 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Picking up whatever bits might be useful or sellable, I think.


 
More useful than sellable - we were furnishing our squat.


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## Hollis (Jun 27, 2012)

The Cally Road one was generally good - apart from that boring landlord they decided to spend ages and ages on..zzz.  I'd always assumed  the estates were due to bomb damage.. so interesting they're the product of Islington Council slum clearnance..


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## toblerone3 (Jun 27, 2012)

No the Bemerton was the result of slum clearance although the Treaty Street Estate south of Copenhagen Street was the result of bomb damage.


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## mrs quoad (Jun 27, 2012)

Professionally repellent bankers on tonight! 

Utterly repellant.


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## Chz (Jun 27, 2012)

Oh yay! They've found a worse couple than the architects. Justifies carpet bombing the area just to get them.


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## Gramsci (Jun 28, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Professionally repellent bankers on tonight!
> 
> Utterly repellant.


 
I found it emotional viewing. It showed more than the Cally programme the huge gulf in wealth in this country. And the way there is no mixing of the different social classes. One person said they had not realised the street continued to the Council estate further up the road until the doc makers told her. The Council had some years previously partly blocked the street to pedestrianise it. This, so happened , to be the border between the toffs and the Council Estate. FFS

I was  when one banker type said where do people think all the bank bailouts ( and quantitative easing) went. Not loans to small business, he said, but to buy houses like the one he was in for £3 million plus. All bought by those working in the financial industry he said. House prices has held up ( and increased) in his area despite the recession and crisis in economy. No crisis for Bankers.

Brilliant programme.


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## Onket (Jun 29, 2012)

I don't think he was a banker though, just some massively well-off toff. If he was a banker, I'm not sure how he got to work each day after he moved to that shipping container in the woods.


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## golightly (Jun 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> I was  when one banker type said where do people think all the bank bailouts ( and quantitative easing) went. Not loans to small business, he said, but to buy houses like the one he was in for £3 million plus. All bought by those working in the financial industry he said. House prices has held up ( and increased) in his area despite the recession and crisis in economy. No crisis for Bankers.


 
At the same time, someone stated (it may have been the same person) that the bankers required their huge salaries and bonuses to fund the lifestyle that they are expected to have as bankers. I'm sure that he said that with his tongue placed strategically in his cheek, but even so.... The interesting thing is that he can be so candid about it because he knows that nothing will change.


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## golightly (Jun 29, 2012)

Btw, were there no people from the Caribbean moving into Portland Road in the 50's and 60's?  There certainly were in other parts of Notting Hill and Ladbroke Grove.


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## BigTom (Jun 29, 2012)

golightly said:


> Btw, were there no people from the Caribbean moving into Portland Road in the 50's and 60's?  There certainly were in other parts of Notting Hill and Ladbroke Grove.



The landlady's dad was from the Caribbean.


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## golightly (Jun 29, 2012)

BigTom said:


> The landlady's dad was from the Caribbean.


 
I thought that was on the Cally Road?


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## BigTom (Jun 29, 2012)

golightly said:


> I thought that was on the Cally Road?


 
oh yeah, you're right.. I watched them one after the other and got confused.


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## gosub (Jun 29, 2012)

golightly said:


> At the same time, someone stated (it may have been the same person) that the bankers required their huge salaries and bonuses to fund the lifestyle that they are expected to have as bankers. I'm sure that he said that with his tongue placed strategically in his cheek, but even so.... The interesting thing is that he can be so candid about it because he knows that nothing will change.


Thought he was feeling sorry for himself, especially when he compared the current financial industry wit C19 factory work..  Some of them probably do work similar hours but the pay and conditions completely different. The only thing that they really have in common is that they are both responsible for the spread of Marxist thought


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## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2012)

Onket said:


> I don't think he was a banker though, just some massively well-off toff. If he was a banker, I'm not sure how he got to work each day after he moved to that shipping container in the woods.


 
Banker "type" is what I said. He said he was descended from the original Barclay family ( the Bank) who made there money a couple of hundred years ago and never looked back. He never had to work as his family were loaded.

He did have insight into the Banker class as he mixed with them before dropping out.


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## gosub (Jun 29, 2012)

I do hope East Anglia council has a word with Mayhew about planning permission for his shipping containers


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## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2012)

golightly said:


> Btw, were there no people from the Caribbean moving into Portland Road in the 50's and 60's? There certainly were in other parts of Notting Hill and Ladbroke Grove.


 
Answer no. Probably because at that time the Council flats were built where the working class were moved. Then the houses on the street were starting to be sold off more middle class ( but not wealthy bankers) bohos who did the houses up.

What I did find fascinating was that there was established Gypsy/ Roma community at top of road. One of the people interviewed said on one side of the family were Roma. His grandparents were as he said full Roma. The programme did not go into this much. I wondered how they got to be there and what happened to them.

Some of them said they were Teds when they were younger. It was white Teds who were getting into fights with Carribbean people. The prog did not ask the people they interviewed about this.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 29, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> What I did find fascinating was that there was established Gypsy/ Roma community at top of road. One of the people interviewed said on one side of the family were Roma. His grandparents were as he said full Roma. The programme did not go into this much. I wondered how they got to be there and what happened to them.


A lot settled post-war. My first husband's Mum was Romany (not from that area, Kent way, but settled in Elephant with an Irish husband). Six kids, two adults, two rooms. Really similar conditions to the North end of Portland Road. Long demolished now. They were moved onto the Elmington Estate in Camberwell eventually.


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## Gramsci (Jun 29, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A lot settled post-war. My first husband's Mum was Romany (not from that area, Kent way, but settled in Elephant with an Irish husband). Six kids, two adults, two rooms. Really similar conditions to the North end of Portland Road. Long demolished now. They were moved onto the Elmington Estate in Camberwell eventually.


 
Forgotten history. The pics in the doc showed the dressed as tradtional Roma. Like the East European one who sells Big Issue outside Sainsburys.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 29, 2012)

Post-war housing was appalling before the war, so even more appalling with added bomb damage. Things must have become really tough for Romany families to give up life on the road for that. I know a lot of Romanies joined up and fought bravely in WWII and felt utterly betrayed after the war.


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## marty21 (Jun 29, 2012)

Onket said:


> I don't think he was a banker though, just some massively well-off toff. If he was a banker, I'm not sure how he got to work each day after he moved to that shipping container in the woods.


 that was strange - couldn't work him out - sold his house for £££s and goes to live in a container in the woods  was he having a breakdown?


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## marty21 (Jun 29, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> Professionally repellent bankers on tonight!
> 
> Utterly repellant.


 not sure if they were bankers - she was in 'fashion' they were repellant though


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## Chz (Jun 29, 2012)

She was in banking before she had a kid and moved into fashion. Can it get worse?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2012)

Chz said:


> She was in banking before she had a kid and moved into fashion. Can it get worse?


probably, if she was the demon love-child of ian paisley and margaret thatcher


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## golightly (Jun 29, 2012)

marty21 said:


> not sure if they were bankers - she was in 'fashion' they were repellant though


 
I wanted to throw her off her balcony.  Vile woman.


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## golightly (Jun 29, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Post-war housing was appalling before the war.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 29, 2012)

As in, it was really bad before and even worse after.


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## golightly (Jun 29, 2012)

Riiight


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 29, 2012)

That was probably the most interesting one of the series so far, some truly shocking indications of just how big a gap there is between rich and poor and a cast of slightly loathsome yet fascinating people.

Henry Mayhew (the banker type) moving to a portacabin and washing in a kitchen bowl was fucking hilarious, I'm thinking he had a messy divorce and he's having midlife crisis.

Looking forward to the next one, used to live in Bermondsey


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## trabuquera (Jun 29, 2012)

Artaxerxes said:


> Henry Mayhew (the banker type) moving to a portacabin and washing in a kitchen bowl was fucking hilarious, I'm thinking he had a messy divorce and he's having midlife crisis.


 
Yeah, all his harping on about 'battery lifestyle' and 'people only live in Notting Hill cos it's what their wives want' might hint in that direction.

Many reasons to hate the banker-turned-fashion-maven woman, but the most pressing one for me was when she GIGGLED and admitted "yeah, actually we did consider trying to buy that [PUBLIC!!!] park..."

 neckshot's too good for some people. I mean how/why, in London, where there are quite obviously loads of people living pretty close to you, would you even imagine that you could or should be buying up parkland for yourself?


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 29, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> As in, it was really bad before and even worse after.


 
what housing?

the social housing built in the 1940s and the early 1950s was by far the best quality social housing Britain has ever built. Indeed, they are considerable better than many new private builds today

As the 1950s progressed the standard of housing was gradually reduced in the push for quantity over quality... by the 60s and 70s the quality of new social house builds was awful. Many weren't even built with brick and no thought was given to landscaping the surrounding areas. Previously this was considered just as important as the housing itself.


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## marty21 (Jun 29, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> what housing?
> 
> the social housing built in the 1940s and the early 1950s was by far the best quality social housing Britain has ever built. Indeed, they are considerable better than many new private builds today
> 
> As the 1950s progressed the standard of housing was gradually reduced in the push for quantity over quality... by the 60s and 70s the quality of new social house builds was awful. Many weren't even built with brick and no thought was given to landscaping the surrounding areas. Previously this was considered just as important as the housing itself.


 I manage some 70s built social housing - apparently it won awards in the 70s - now we have constant problems with plumbing, roofs, leaks, damp,etc 

I have managed housing in the Notting Hill/Bayswater/Maida Vale area - where several Housing Associations bought up the shitty houses (victorian and earlier) that had been let out by Rachman and his like - once they were converted into flats - they require little maintenance compared to the newer builds


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## Divisive Cotton (Jun 29, 2012)

marty21 said:


> I manage some 70s built social housing - apparently it won awards in the 70s - now we have constant problems with plumbing, roofs, leaks, damp,etc
> 
> I have managed housing in the Notting Hill/Bayswater/Maida Vale area - where several Housing Associations bought up the shitty houses (victorian and earlier) that had been let out by Rachman and his like - once they were converted into flats - they require little maintenance compared to the newer builds


 
If you go an estate built between the late 1940s and late 1950s (many of them where built over an extended period) you can visibly see the difference in the quality of housing built at the beginning and at the end of the period


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 29, 2012)

Divisive Cotton said:


> what housing?
> 
> the social housing built in the 1940s and the early 1950s was by far the best quality social housing Britain has ever built. Indeed, they are considerable better than many new private builds today


 Well, up to point Lord Copper. I've lived in 50's social Housing and 70s social housing. Both have problems, usually due to disrepair.The award-winning 50s housing I moved into had thick black mould and water running down the walls. It was the worst. They argued for years it was 'tenant lifestyle'.
However, I meant housing during that period, not built in that period.
They moved into Elmington from something like this.


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## Maggot (Jul 1, 2012)

The people of Deptford aren't happy about their portrayal.

http://deptfordptrs.com/


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## Orang Utan (Jul 1, 2012)

Interesting. Many fair points made.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jul 2, 2012)

This is really vital contemporary history.  Catch the Portland Road one now on iPlayer. The themes of social housing and banking obviously all very present.  Great viewing, drops off a bit after 40 mins but i guess they had to let the 'nobs' hang themselves.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> The people of Deptford aren't happy about their portrayal.
> 
> http://deptfordptrs.com/


Good read, i'm no expert but I'd heard anecdotes about the high street never recovering after the war so was surprised at the portrayal.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 2, 2012)

Maggot said:


> The people of Deptford aren't happy about their portrayal.
> 
> http://deptfordptrs.com/


I've just twigged from reading that that the ex-councillor, Nick Taylor, is the Nicholas Taylor who wrote The Village In The City. I've got that somewhere.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 4, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> What I did find fascinating was that there was established Gypsy/ Roma community at top of road. One of the people interviewed said on one side of the family were Roma. His grandparents were as he said full Roma. The programme did not go into this much. I wondered how they got to be there and what happened to them.


 
I believe that area was where the piggeries and potteries were (I think that was mentioned very briefly). I think they were there some way into the 20th Century so well within the lifetime of that street. I'm speculating a bit but you could see how that sort of lifestyle, with some quasi-rural features, could form links with traveller communities (although they weren't travellers initially - they were previously turfed out of the area that's now Marble Arch when it was urbanised.)


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## Maggot (Jul 4, 2012)

Tonight's one is in Bermondsey - and no football to clash with it!


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## Gramsci (Jul 4, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I believe that area was where the piggeries and potteries were (I think that was mentioned very briefly). I think they were there some way into the 20th Century so well within the lifetime of that street. I'm speculating a bit but you could see how that sort of lifestyle, with some quasi-rural features, could form links with traveller communities (although they weren't travellers initially - they were previously turfed out of the area that's now Marble Arch when it was urbanised.)


 
I didnt know they were at Marble Arch. How history repeats itself. The Police have just turfed out Romanians Roma and Romanians who were camping out in Marble Arch.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 9, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I've just twigged from reading that that the ex-councillor, Nick Taylor, is the Nicholas Taylor who wrote The Village In The City. I've got that somewhere.


Which I've unearthed. It's really rather good.


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## oryx (Jul 9, 2012)

Artaxerxes said:


> That was probably the most interesting one of the series so far, some truly shocking indications of just how big a gap there is between rich and poor and a cast of slightly loathsome yet fascinating people.
> 
> Henry Mayhew (the banker type) moving to a portacabin and washing in a kitchen bowl was fucking hilarious, I'm thinking he had a messy divorce and he's having midlife crisis.
> 
> Looking forward to the next one, used to live in Bermondsey


 
All spot-on - deffo a mid-life crisis! I thought some of Mayhew's analysis was interesting, in that the bankers just go to work and have (probably) fairly dull lives and are driven by what their spoilt wives want. Not that I feel sorry for them, of course!

Does anyone know when the Bermondsey one's repeated? Doesn't appear to be late Tuesday (i.e. tomorrow) night as has been the case with the others.


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## Gingerman (Jul 9, 2012)

oryx said:


> All spot-on - deffo a mid-life crisis! I thought some of Mayhew's analysis was interesting, in that the bankers just go to work and have (probably) fairly dull lives and are driven by what their spoilt wives want. Not that I feel sorry for them, of course!
> 
> Does anyone know when the Bermondsey one's repeated? Doesn't appear to be late Tuesday (i.e. tomorrow) night as has been the case with the others.


 http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01kn6jn/The_Secret_History_of_Our_Streets_Reverdy_Road/


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## oryx (Jul 9, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01kn6jn/The_Secret_History_of_Our_Streets_Reverdy_Road/


 
Cheers. I'll watch on iPlayer if necessary but thought each Wednesday episode was repeated the folloing Tuesday.

Thanks heaven for the iPlayer if not - this has been such a brilliant series, and I wouldn't want to miss any of them.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 9, 2012)

A DVD will come out apparently. 
Think I might read the book too 
I was also wondering if there had been any complaints from locals about it. There were a fair few about the Deptford episode, but I was only aware of them cos I was following a few Deptford related accounts on Twitter


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## Maggot (Jul 10, 2012)

oryx said:


> Cheers. I'll watch on iPlayer if necessary but thought each Wednesday episode was repeated the folloing Tuesday.
> 
> Thanks heaven for the iPlayer if not - this has been such a brilliant series, and I wouldn't want to miss any of them.


The Radio Times says it's on today at 12.20am, but the Guide says it isn't.


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## Maggot (Jul 11, 2012)

The Reverdy Road Ep is on now.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 11, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> Think I might read the book too


Get 'The Village In The City' by Nicholas Taylor too. 1973.
I dug it out from the back of a bookshelf two-deep in paperbacks. Well worth a read.


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## Maggot (Jul 11, 2012)

The Reverdy Road episode doesn't have the ups and downs of the other streets, but Dr Alfred Salter is a real local hero. He deserves a programme of his own.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 11, 2012)

Maggot said:


> The Reverdy Road episode doesn't have the ups and downs of the other streets, but Dr Alfred Salter is a real local hero. He deserves a programme of his own.


 
Yes.  The prog led to me tracking down a copy of Fenner Brockway's biography of Dr Salter ("_Bermondsey Story: the Life of Alfred Salter_") - I'd heard a bit about the work of Bermondsey Council but not in much detail.

I'm trying to resist tracking down and buying the Nicholas Taylor book...


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 11, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I'm trying to resist tracking down and buying the Nicholas Taylor book...


I've just looked and there are a few copies on abebooks.co.uk


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## ska invita (Jul 11, 2012)

Tonights (in east london somewhere) is meant to have something on the first estate - i thought the first estate was near new oxford street - sort of behind Bookmarks , or is it opposite Bookmarks where theres a Wagamamas - somewhere there. Anyone know for sure which it was?


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## harpo (Jul 11, 2012)

Where is it tonight?


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 11, 2012)

ska invita said:


> Tonights (in east london somewhere) is meant to have something on the first estate - i thought the first estate was near new oxford street - sort of behind Bookmarks , or is it opposite Bookmarks where theres a Wagamamas - somewhere there. Anyone know for sure which it was?


 
Tonight's prog is about the Boundary Street estate in shoreditch, which was certainly one of the first housing schemes undertaken by a local authority.  If you're thinking about the place near New Oxford Street that I think you mean, that was one of the 'model dwellings' companies, not a council.


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## ska invita (Jul 11, 2012)

"Arnold Circus - home to the first council estate which opened in 1896."


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## ska invita (Jul 11, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Tonight's prog is about the Boundary Street estate in shoreditch, which was certainly one of the first housing schemes undertaken by a local authority. If you're thinking about the place near New Oxford Street that I think you mean, that was one of the 'model dwellings' companies, not a council.


thanks, sounds right, i guess council involvement is a seperate (later) class


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 11, 2012)

There is quite a good history of the Boundary Estate (built on the site of the area known as 'Old Nichol' - semi fictionalised as the 'Jago' by Arthur Morrison on (of all places) the Boundary Community Launderette's website - part 1 here.  (incidentally, they claim the Boundary Estate to be the first 'council *estate*')

From distant memory, I believe Birmingham can lay claim to the first 'council *houses*' c. 1890 - a reference to them here


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## ska invita (Jul 11, 2012)

i thought that was the best one of the series


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## ringo (Jul 12, 2012)

Loved this one, especially as my dad's family were Jewish immigrants living round Spitalfields at the the time. I was hoping there would be a mention in this series of the tenements built by philanthropists and employers as well as those built by councils, but the whole series was much more centred on govt/council policy. Not really a complaint, I loved it, just what I would have enjoyed.

My folks lived on Flower And Dean Street, now long gone, just by Brick Lane in the Rothschild Buildings, working for Rothschild as cigar makers, also the street where some of Jack The Ripper's victims were murdered. Would have loved to have seen an episode on that.

I ought to get on with reading the book:


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 12, 2012)

Yes, there's a heck of a lot could be said about the Spitalfields / Shoreditch patch, but wouldn't have fitted the focus on one street / a few people that is considered to be good mainstream TV.

Shoreditch is also home to the first Peabody development in London (corner of Commercial Street / Folgate Street - 1863/4)


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## ska invita (Jul 12, 2012)

i dont know the production credits, but i got the feeling different ones were made by different people - overall i thought there could have been more gotten into the hour on a few of the episodes, such as the lack of the mention of the maritime connection at Deptford, or no mention of Camberwell Fair on that episode, and so on, but still a great watch. The last one really made you yearn for quality social housing... 

That King of the Ghetto show sounds fun Its got Ian Dury in it! (and tim roth)


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## nagapie (Jul 12, 2012)

I really enjoyed this series. Now I have nothing on TV to watch.


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## cybertect (Jul 13, 2012)

ska invita said:


> i dont know the production credits, but i got the feeling different ones were made by different people]



Yes. Last week's episode on Bermondsey had a very different feel with the current inhabitants of the houses introducing themselves as their predecessors. Nice touch.


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 9, 2013)

Thread bump - seems to be being repeated on 'Yesterday' (on Freeview) 2100 Tuesday 12.2.13(not sure whether this is the first or they have already started and I didn't notice)

Their website doesn't admit it yet...


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## Maggot (Feb 9, 2013)

Well spotted Puddy Tat!  According to the Radio Times this week's episode is the 2nd one: Camberwell Grove.


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## Onket (Feb 9, 2013)

It was a good episide, that one.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2013)

Maggot said:


> The Reverdy Road Ep is on now.


 
Repeat on tonight (Yesterday)


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## danny la rouge (Mar 5, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Repeat on tonight (Yesterday)


What time?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 5, 2013)

danny la rouge said:


> What time?


 
9.00pm


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## danny la rouge (Mar 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> 9.00pm


Cheers.  I turned on in time to see it was halfway through.  I'd seen that one, though.  I was hoping to catch the ones I missed first time round.


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## clandestino (Mar 6, 2013)

Bugger, totally missed this. Saw the last four of the initial run. I guess I've missed the first lot again is that right?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2013)

ianw said:


> Bugger, totally missed this. Saw the last four of the initial run. I guess I've missed the first lot again is that right?


 
Looks like Arnold Grove is the last one, so yes, you've missed them again


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## Schmetterling (Mar 6, 2013)

It's only one once a week though, yes?  Saw last weeks on Portland Road and last night's on Reverdy Road.  I also think it is fantastic.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> It's only one once a week though, yes? Saw last weeks on Portland Road and last night's on Reverdy Road. I also think it is fantastic.


 
Yes, next one (last episode) is 12th I think


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

Bump

Arnold Street now on Yesterday


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## Maggot (Mar 12, 2013)

Having a channel called Yesterday can be confusing.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

Maggot said:


> Having a channel called Yesterday can be confusing.


 
Especially when something is on today or tomorrow on Yesterday


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 23, 2013)

The Deptford one is being shown on 'Yesterday' channel 2100 this evening


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 30, 2013)

Camberwell Grove one is on 'Yesterday' today

if you see what I mean.

again, 2100 (freeview 19 round here)


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## Maggot (Nov 8, 2016)

This is being repeated on  BBC4. 1st Episode tonight at 10pm (8 November). Hopefully they will show the whole  series.


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## Maggot (Nov 15, 2016)

Camberwell Grove on now


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## CH1 (Nov 15, 2016)

Maggot said:


> Camberwell Grove on now


I really like this programme. Saw it before a couple of years ago. Kind of confirms my ageing identity - being Brixton based since 1979 the issues are all very similar.


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