# Gok me right up



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

I really want to be Gok'd 

I couldn't be naked with no make up on the telly though.

Could you?


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

I'll happily take a couple of thousand quidsworth of clothes from any of these lot but I'm not willing to pay the price.


----------



## Geri (Jul 21, 2010)

I wouldn't even go on telly fully clothed.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Geri said:


> I wouldn't even go on telly fully clothed.


 
Quite.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

This one's crying too much. Getting on my tits.


----------



## trashpony (Jul 21, 2010)

There is no way I'd allow myself to be ridiculed for the nation's amusement but I would like to be gokked in private


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

trashpony said:


> There is no way I'd allow myself to be ridiculed for the nation's amusement but I would like to be gokked in private


 
I agree, except for the private gokking part.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Do the women get ridiculed though? I just tend to look at them and think they're fretting about fuck all.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't watch it anymore, tbh.   Got bored. 

Has he had a bigger woman with small tits on yet?  I've always been curious as to how he would cope without his standard ''great tits''  to rely on.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

trashpony said:


> There is no way I'd allow myself to be ridiculed for the nation's amusement but I would like to be gokked in private


 
I've never thought of them as being ridiculed but I'd probably feel ridiculed if it was me.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 21, 2010)

Fuck that! There is no way on earth I would go on tv in my bra n knickers!
Be totally up for the naked shoot obviously 
I don't like the way he dresses women anyway, it is sometimes flattering but I hate his styling tbh.


----------



## trashpony (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I've never thought of them as being ridiculed but I'd probably feel ridiculed if it was me.


 
That's what I mean really


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Do the women get ridiculed though? I just tend to look at them and think they're fretting about fuck all.


 
yes, cos lots of people are cussing them in their living rooms


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

I wouldn't be so worried about the public as much as Urban really


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I wouldn't be so worried about the public as much as Urban really


 
I'd prefer my workmates not to see me in my smalls.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I'd prefer my workmates not to see me in my smalls.


 
It wouldn't have been a first for mine


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I really want to be Gok'd
> 
> I couldn't be naked with no make up on the telly though.
> 
> Could you?



No, it would be like my worst nightmare.........wouldn't want to be on tele anyhoo and prefer not to be naked in front of mostly anyone if i can help it !


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 21, 2010)

Gok is het but has found a genius way to fondle boobs through his devious gay persona.


----------



## zenie (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> It wouldn't have been a first for mine


 
Nor mine 

*curses the day she was leaning over a desk with her skirt in her knickers*

There is no way I'd have some pawing over me, and telling me I looked 'fierce'. Even when a make up artist asked me what I most liked about my face I couldn't really tell her anything and clammed up. 

Just 'cos some camp guy is saying you look amazing doesn't mean you'll feel it.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

It seems to work though


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

The bit where they get naked always makes me cry


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> It seems to work though


 
She ran away pretty quick.  

How under pressure do they feel to tell the camera what it wants to hear?


----------



## trashpony (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> The bit where they get naked always makes me cry


 
I don't know what you mean 


<wipes tears>


----------



## TrippyLondoner (Jul 21, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Gok is het but has found a genius way to fondle boobs through his devious gay persona.


 
Indeed, that git.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> She ran away pretty quick.
> 
> How under pressure do they feel to tell the camera what it wants to hear?



They don't have to get naked at the end though. She looked like she really enjoyed it this time. I dunno, I'm not sure the majority of people are such good actors.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

trashpony said:


> I don't know what you mean
> 
> 
> <wipes tears>


 
Why is it? Is it because they're vulnerable and trusting? Or is it that they genuinely feel ok enough about themselves to get naked in front of a load of strangers. Gets me every fucking time.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

zenie said:


> *curses the day she was leaning over a desk with her skirt in her knickers*



I also wouldn't advise not putting any knickers on because you're in a hurry and failing to realise for most of the day that the seam below the zip  in your trousers had split. Oh my special furry trousers.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> . Oh my special furry trousers.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

Exploitative self promnoting cunt of a human being. Other than that I have no strong opinions on the man.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Exploitative self promnoting cunt of a human being. Other than that I have no strong opinions on the man.


 
Don't you bloody start 

He's not exploitative - he makes women feel good about the way they are, just how they are. He doesn't advise them to have surgery or anything else invasive. You, Mr Fed have missed the point.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Don't you bloody start
> 
> He's not exploitative - he makes women feel good about the way they are, just how they are. *He doesn't advise them to have surgery or anything else invasive*. You, Mr Fed have missed the point.



So what? That doesn't make him non exploitative? No, the point is that Gok keeps getting himself all the PR he wants...... It's all about Gok....


----------



## trashpony (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Why is it? Is it because they're vulnerable and trusting? Or is it that they genuinely feel ok enough about themselves to get naked in front of a load of strangers. Gets me every fucking time.


 
The latter I think. I want to feel like that


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> So what? That doesn't make him non exploitative? No, the point is that Gok keeps getting himself all the PR he wants...... It's all about Gok....


 
Explain how he's exploitative? He's no more exploitative than Spanglechick.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

trashpony said:


> The latter I think. I want to feel like that


 God, me too.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Explain how he's exploitative? He's no more exploitative than Spanglechick.


 
Spangles doesn't make women get their kit off on national telly.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> Spangles doesn't make women get their kit off on national telly.


 
Show me where he forces them?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Explain how he's exploitative? He's no more exploitative than Spanglechick.


 
The naked beauty stuff, water hosing women down, making them feel vulnerable and uncomfortable? Telling them how bad they look, even when they like their look. Oh yeah that's really helping.  Using them to make his programme and his name. How many of them actually do anything other than be his projects?  Oooohh look, i'm gay, I can play with womens breasts... I'm soooooo breaking the rules... Me, me me me me


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

you're just jealous


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Show me where he forces them?


 
Because that would be a criminal offence. No one forces people onto the Jeremy Kyle show to spew their lives for voyeruristic entertainment, does that mean it's not exploitative? I think we both know the answer to that.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> The naked beauty stuff, water hosing women down, making them feel vulnerable and uncomfortable? Telling them how bad they look, even when they like their look. Oh yeah that's really helping.  Using them to make his programme and his name. How many of them actually do anything other than be his projects?  Oooohh look, i'm gay, I can play with womens breasts... I'm soooooo breaking the rules... Me, me me me me


 
If they liked their look why would they go on the programme? 
And I've just watched an hour of it and he said nothing bad about the woman at all. It was all supportive of how she looks right now.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> you're just jealous


 
Yeah, that's it.....


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

it is a bit of a crazy world where people have to go on telly to feel good about themselves. they're all shallow cunts imo.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> If they liked their look why would they go on the programme?
> And I've just watched an hour of it and he said nothing bad about the woman at all. It was all supportive of how she looks right now.


 
I think you're confusing exploit with abuse/insult. They're two entirely difernt concepts.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> it is a bit of a crazy world where people have to go on telly to feel good about themselves. they're all shallow cunts imo.


 
I think the going on telly is secondary to getting Gok'd tbh


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I think the going on telly is secondary to getting Gok'd tbh


 
hmmm i am very sceptical about that


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> I think you're confusing exploit with abuse/insult. They're two entirely difernt concepts.


 
I think that nothing I say will change how you feel about him so is there any point?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I think the going on telly is secondary to getting Gok'd tbh


 
Why doesn't he do it off camera then? He could do exactly the same without the full exposure of national tv.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> hmmm i am very sceptical about that



Well, you may be right but I can't see why someone would volunteer to be sen in their underwear when they feel so bad about themselves unless there was a serious pay off (beyond just being on telly)


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I think that nothing I say will change how you feel about him so is there any point?


 
We probably won't change each others minds nthat's true.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Why doesn't he do it off camera then? He could do exactly the same without the full exposure of national tv.


 
Could he really? How would it be funded?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Could he really? How would it be funded?


by the ladies, who else?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Could he really? How would it be funded?


 
Exactly.... it's all about money, exposure, PR oooooohh look at me. It's not about simply making the women feel better, there's no bang in the buck for that. So get funding, make some money, look concerned, turn them all into products of what one man thinks women whould dress like.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Well, you may be right but I can't see why someone would volunteer to be sen in their underwear when they feel so bad about themselves unless there was a serious pay off (beyond just being on telly)


why do people agree to appear on embarrassing illnesses? that i'll never understand!


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> by the ladies, who else?



So, it would only be for wealthy women.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Why doesn't he do it off camera then? He could do exactly the same without the full exposure of national tv.


 
How could he? Where would he get the money from?  Women paying him?   Most women can't afford or are unwilling to spend the money on a whole new wardrobe in one go and a stylist.  A tv programme means others can get tips and some confidence without going on the telly either.   How would that be him doing exactly the same?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Exactly.... it's all about money, exposure, PR oooooohh look at me. It's not about simply making the women feel better, there's no bang in the buck for that. So get funding, make some money, look concerned, turn them all into products of what one man thinks women whould dress like.


 
I don't give a flying fuck about any of that. He _does_ make the women feel good about themselves, that's all I care about.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> why do people agree to appear on embarrassing illnesses? that i'll never understand!


 
That does totally confuse me.  I won't talk about it to my own doc in private but I will show my pustulated arse on telly.....


----------



## zenie (Jul 21, 2010)

It's a fuckin TV show, what do you expect?!  

How dare he have PR and exposure appearing on telly like that!!!!


----------



## moomoo (Jul 21, 2010)

I'd love to be Gokk'd.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> How could he? Where would he get the money from?  Women paying him?   Most women can't afford or are unwilling to spend the money on a whole new wardrobe in one go and a stylist.  A tv programme means others can get tips and some confidence without going on the telly either.   How would that be him doing exactly the same?


 Quite. Millions of women watch one woman being transformed. There's something about every woman, regardless of shape or size , that I can empathise with and learn something from in terms of how to dress etc.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, it would only be for wealthy women.


 
of course! that's how he started


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

I also find it funny when a (well-meaning) man tells a load of women they're being exploited


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I also find it funny when a (well-meaning) man tells a load of women they're being exploited


 
Yes exactly, but when a 'well meaning man' tells women what they should wear that's ok it seems...

Having a pair of bollocks does not make my opinion any less valid purely by dint of having those bollocks however much you may try and insinuate it does. It's an opinion, not invalidated by having bollocks.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Yes exactly, but when a 'well meaning man' tells women what they should wear that's ok it seems...
> 
> Having a pair of bollocks does not make my opinion any less valid purely by dint of having those bollocks however much you may try and insinuate it does. It's an opinion, not invalidated by having bollocks.


 
*snort*


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Yes exactly, but when a 'well meaning man' tells women what they should wear that's ok it seems...
> 
> Having a pair of bollocks does not make my opinion any less valid purely by dint of having those bollocks however much you may try and insinuate it does. It's an opinion, not invalidated by having bollocks.


 
Difference being that Gok Wan is a specialist in what he does.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Difference being that Gok Wan is a specialist in what he does.




I didn't know you could be a specialist in being a self promoting twat. Oh well.....


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> I didn't know you could be a specialist in being a self promoting twat. Oh well.....


 
We're all self promoting in one way or another


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> We're all self promoting in one way or another


*I'M NOT*


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Difference being that Gok Wan is a specialist in what he does.


 
And it seems being a 'specialist in what he does' makes his opinion, whilst being a man and having bollocks acceptable. As such, your wee remark about a 'well meaning man' having an opinion was and is bollocks frankly isn't it?!


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Yes exactly, but when a 'well meaning man' tells women what they should wear that's ok it seems...
> 
> Having a pair of bollocks does not make my opinion any less valid purely by dint of having those bollocks however much you may try and insinuate it does. It's an opinion, not invalidated by having bollocks.


 
He's giving advice to those who seek it.  They don't have to stick to it. 

Gok has found something which he enjoys, which helps other people, which he is good at and that he can make money out of.  Good for him.  Not many of us manage that although most of us would like to.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> And it seems being a 'specialist in what he does' makes his opinion, whilst being a man and having bollocks acceptable. As such, your wee remark about a 'well meaning man' having an opinion was and is bollocks frankly isn't it?!


 
No. You're more than entitled to your 'opinion'. No-one saying you're not. But the plain and simple fact is that the vast majority of women on this thread and probably in the country disagree with you.

You're very angry about him - disproportionately so IMO


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> He's giving advice to those who seek it.  They don't have to stick to it.
> 
> Gok has found something which he enjoys, which helps other people, which he is good at and that he can make money out of.  Good for him.  Not many of us manage that although most of us would like to.


 he'll definitely be once circle above nicky hambleton-jones when he goes to hell


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

In tonights show he was helping a teenage girl campaign to have body confidence classes added to the curriculum. Before he got involved they wouldn't even reply to her letter. He got her an interview with Ed Balls. Self promoting, self centred bastard.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> No. You're more than entitled to your 'opinion'. No-one saying you're not. But the plain and simple fact is that the vast majority of women on this thread and probably in the country disagree with you.
> 
> You're very angry about him - disproportionately so IMO



How then is my opinion funny purely because i'm a man? I'm not angry about gok, but a tad pissed off that my opinion is somehow 'funny' based not on the actual disagreement, or the content of that opinion, but based purely on my gender.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> How then is my opinion funny purely because i'm a man? I'm not angry about gok, but a tad pissed off that my opinion is somehow 'funny' based not on the actual disagreement, or the content of that opinion, but based purely on my gender.


 
Because you're telling us all we're being exploited even though none if us feel it to be the truth 

Give us a pat on the head while you're there why don't you?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

If he was a buff hetero woman getting a lot of plump balding gay chaps to get naked and telling them what cracking cocks they had while they looked miserable would that be ok?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Because you're telling us all we're being exploited even though none if us feel it to be the truth
> 
> Give us a pat on the head while you're there why don't you?


 
Where am I patting anyone on the head? Take your time and point it out. Why not the same refrain to weepiper who dislikes him? Funny that.... And by the way it's simple to disagree, fine, my opinion is neither patronising nor lessened by having bollocks.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> If he was a buff hetero woman getting a lot of plump balding gay chaps to get naked and telling them what cracking cocks they had while they looked miserable would that be ok?


 
Can't see why not. Although, I'm fairly certain that Gok doesn't tell women they have fantastic minges.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Where am I patting anyone on the head? Take your time and point it out. Why not the same refrain to weepiper who dislikes him? Funny that.... And by the way it's simple to disagree, fine, my opinion is neither patronising nor lessened by having bollocks.


 

i'd let it lie if i were you


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Where am I patting anyone on the head? Take your time and point it out. Why not the same refrain to weepiper who dislikes him? Funny that.... And by the way it's simple to disagree, fine, my opinion is neither patronising nor lessened by having bollocks.


 
To be fair though weeps has started wearing what you tell her so why is that any better?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Can't see why not. Although, I'm fairly certain that Gok doesn't tell women they have fantastic minges.


 
last time I saw it he was always going on about their 'gorgeous bangers' though.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> To be fair though weeps has started wearing what you tell her so why is that any better?


 
Yeah right...... You really think?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i'd let it lie if i were you


 Who?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Can't see why not. Although, I'm fairly certain that Gok doesn't tell women they have fantastic minges.


 
i think he has actually


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> To be fair though weeps has started wearing what you tell her so why is that any better?


 
pmsl


----------



## maldwyn (Jul 21, 2010)

I liked the one last week with his first man.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> last time I saw it he was always going on about their 'gorgeous bangers' though.


 
And that translates into telling people they have cracking cocks how?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> last time I saw it he was always going on about their 'gorgeous bangers' though.


 
That's ok though, he's a 'specialist'.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> I liked the one last week with his first man.



Ooooh, I missed that one. He did look at a load of roofers and their jeans tonight though so he's obviously adding men to his world domination


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> And that translates into telling people they have cracking cocks how?


 
I think it's a fair comparison.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Ooooh, I missed that one. He did look at a load of roofers and their jeans tonight though so he's obviously adding men to his world domination


 
it'd be great if he got men to wear jeans that fit them properly


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i think he has actually


 
Got a link? I'd like to see what he'd do with a minge 

Purely for research


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Got a link? I'd like to see what he'd do with a minge
> 
> Purely for research


 
i'm sure i've seen him talking about merkins and shaving and the like


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> That's ok though, he's a 'specialist'.


 
So are you.

At moaning


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i'm sure i've seen him talking about merkins and shaving and the like


 
Are you sure you haven't dreamt that?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> So are you.
> 
> At moaning


 
Yes, after all, replying to posts in a thread you find interesting is 'moaning'... Oh the larfs...


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> And it seems being a 'specialist in what he does' makes his opinion, whilst being a man and having bollocks acceptable. As such, your wee remark about a 'well meaning man' having an opinion was and is bollocks frankly isn't it?!


 
Some people have a natural talent for things and some people work at gaining expertise. Presumably he was a stylist/personal shopper/whatever of some description before getting this show.  People generally become successful at this sort of job because of customer satisfaction and personal recommendations.   He is someone who advises women on what to wear to suit and flatter their body type to gain more confidence in their bodies.  It's not some paternalistic*  diktat telling women how they ''should dress'; that they should dress in short skirts to feel sexy and perk up the male office staff, or to lower their hemline so as to appear modest and not distract the male office staff. 

*except perhaps within the grand scheme of things, but that's not Gok's fault. 

Some men might have a flair for knowing what suits women, most don't.  No reason why they should, of course.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

I think what he does is really objectifying. Plus if someone is having serious self-esteem issues I don't see how wearing some different clothes can suddenly change that.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Yes, after all, replying to posts in a thread you find interesting is 'moaning'... Oh the larfs...


 
I don't really find it interesting tbh. I find it dull and you always derail Gok threads with this shit. You don't like him, that's fine but you can't let people who do like him and want to talk about it wihtout spitting your dummy. You don't like him so why do you feel the need to go on and fucking on about it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Are you sure you haven't dreamt that?


 
i may have got makeover shows mixed up. i wasn't saying he got to spread em, he just advised them on minge topiary. we are talking about minges rather than cunts remember.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I think what he does is really objectifying. Plus if someone is having serious self-esteem issues I don't see how wearing some different clothes can suddenly change that.


 
They have self esteem issues about the way they look


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I don't really find it interesting tbh. I find it dull and you always derail Gok threads with this shit. You don't like him, that's fine but you can't let people who do like him and want to talk about it wihtout spitting your dummy. You don't like him so why do you feel the need to go on and fucking on about it?


 
Well why not say that only people who like gok can post in this thread on a public messageboard. And disagreeing = spitting the dummy.... Oh it gets better.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i may have got makeover shows mixed up. i wasn't saying he got to spread em, he just advised them on minge topiary. we are talking about minges rather than cunts remember.


 
This thread hasn't gone the way I planned


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Well why not say that only people who like gok can post in this thread on a public messageboard. And disagreeing = spitting the dummy.... Oh it gets better.


 Yawn......

You know you always get areated about Gok. Fuck knows why. It's dull though. Dull and disruptive.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> Some people have a natural talent for things and some people work at gaining expertise. Presumably he was a stylist/personal shopper/whatever of some description before getting this show.  People generally become successful at this sort of job because of customer satisfaction and personal recommendations.   He is someone who advises women on what to wear to suit and flatter their body type to gain more confidence in their bodies.  It's not some paternalistic*  diktat telling women how they ''should dress'; that they should dress in short skirts to feel sexy and perk up the male office staff, or to lower their hemline so as to appear modest and not distract the male office staff.
> 
> *except perhaps within the grand scheme of things, but that's not Gok's fault.
> 
> Some men might have a flair for knowing what suits women, most don't.  No reason why they should, of course.


 
Being good at something doesn't mean his schtick and behaviour isn't exploitative, or as smmudge has said, possibly objectifying, it simply makes him good at it.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> They have self esteem issues about the way they look


 
If they had self esteem they wouldn't care about how they looked, or they would realise there is no 'right' way of looking. Ergo self esteem is not that superficial.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Being good at something doesn't mean his schtick and behaviour isn't exploitative, or as smmudge has said, possibly objectifying, it simply makes him good at it.


 
He's good at sending people who seek his advice away feeling happier about themselves, without them getting plastic surgery to boot.  What an exploitative cunt.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> If they had self esteem they would care about how they looked, or they would realise there is no 'right' way of looking. Ergo self esteem is not that superficial.


 
Yes, it is.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Yes, it is.


 
self-esteem goes way deeper than body image.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> self-esteem goes way deeper than body image.


 
You can have low self esteem in all sorts of areas.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> He's good at sending people who seek his advice away feeling happier about themselves, without them getting plastic surgery to boot.  What an exploitative cunt.



Yeah, I mean, TV never lies!

I'm not saying none of the people feel happier, but who knows what the fuck happens when he sends them away.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> self-esteem goes way deeper than body image.


 
I would agree but self image (the way you look to yourself) can also play a huge part in all that..............does for me anyhoo.......


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

And tonight he got the woman to get back into ice skating when she hadn't had the confidence to in 8 yrs. He doesn't just sling them into a pair of magic knickers.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 21, 2010)

Ypo've got to love Goks front. Gay fashionista tells women how to dress. What a grade A fucking tool.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Yeah, I mean, TV never lies!
> 
> I'm not saying none of the people feel happier, but who knows what the fuck happens when he sends them away.


 
True.  I expressed my doubts on this earlier in the thread.   He gives advice and tries to make them see themselves more positively.  Maybe it doesn't always work.  But I haven't seen any huge exposés in the papers from dissatisfied customers leading to the cessation of his contract.   Maybe the papers aren't ready to launch their backlash just yet.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Ypo've got to love Goks front. *Gay fashionista tells women how to dress*. What a grade A fucking tool.


 
Not much different to a large part of the fashion industry then............


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

I don't like the whole idea, not necessarily Gok himself personally but the whole show, because it all reinforces/hangs on women's secret feelings that the only way we can be of any true worth is if we 'look right'.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> I don't like the whole idea, not necessarily Gok himself personally but the whole show, because it all reinforces/hangs on women's secret feelings that the only way we can be of any true worth is if we 'look right'.


 
And you think that if his show didn't exist that would be any different?

Wanting to look good isn't a new phenomena. What's got out of control is that it isn't just about looking right/comfortable/conficent in what we wear, it's now about our actual bodies. He tells women their bodies are just right the way they are and shows them how to dress so they feel more confident.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> I don't like the whole idea, not necessarily Gok himself personally but the whole show, because it all reinforces/hangs on women's secret feelings that the only way we can be of true worth is if we 'look right'.


 
i don't like any of these shows, but i can't really articulate why. i just think it's barrelscraping tasteless entertainment and think people must be a bit dim for liking it (snooty and unreasonable for sure, but that's what i think)


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> And you think that if his show didn't exist that would be any different?


 
I didn't say that. It's just an extreme example of the messages women get right from when we're little babies.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> I didn't say that. It's just an extreme example of the messages women get right from when we're little babies.


 
It's not just women who get them.

Do you wear a sack when you go out then?


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> I don't like the whole idea, not necessarily Gok himself personally but the whole show, because it all reinforces/hangs on women's secret feelings that the only way we can be of any true worth is if we 'look right'.


 
This is basically my feelings on it too. But my main gripe is that the show sells itself on giving the impression that it's doing exactly the _opposite_. Also I heard a R1 interview with Gok Wan when he was saying he'd always found the 'psychology of women' (like as that homogenous group 'we' are ) 'fascinating'. Well I found it creepy and weird.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> This is basically my feelings on it too. But my main gripe is that the show sells itself on giving the impression that it's doing exactly the _opposite_. Also I heard a R1 interview with Gok Wan when he was saying he'd always found the 'psychology of women' (like as that homogenous group 'we' are ) 'fascinating'. Well I found it creepy and weird.


 
So, how far do you take that? Should women not wear make up, or dye their hair, or wear nice underwear? Why don't we all just wear smocks? What is wrong with wanting to feel good about the way you look? What is wrong about wanting to enjoy the clothes you wear?

And as for finding him creepy, how do you feel about gynaecologists?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> It's not just women who get them.
> 
> Do you wear a sack when you go out then?


 
stop having a go every time someone disagrees with you madz.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, how far do you take that? Should women not wear make up, or dye their hair, or wear nice underwear? Why don't we all just wear smocks? What is wrong with wanting to feel good about the way you look? What is wrong about wanting to enjoy the clothes you wear?


 
Who said there was anything wrong with any of that? Straw man....


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> stop having a go every time someone disagrees with you madz.


 
I'm not having a go. You'd know if I was. I'm asking why it's ok for you to want to look nice when you go out and if so, why isn't it ok for women to seek advice form someone they trust about what makes them look nice?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, how far do you take that? Should women not wear make up, or dye their hair, or wear nice underwear? Why don't we all just wear smocks? What is wrong with wanting to feel good about the way you look? What is wrong about wanting to enjoy the clothes you wear?
> 
> And as for finding him creepy, how do you feel about gynaecologists?


 whoah!


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Who said there was anything wrong with any of that? Straw man....


 
I automatically write off the opinion of anyone who says straw man or ad hominem tbh


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> And as for finding him creepy, how do you feel about gynaecologists?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I automatically write off the opinion of anyone who says *straw man* or ad hominem tbh


 
Well stop using them then.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I automatically write off the opinion of anyone who says straw man or ad hominem tbh


that makes you a bit of a fool


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


>


 
What? If it's creepy for a bloke to be interested in the psychology of women tehn surely it's creepy for a bloke to be interested in poking round their cunts?


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i don't like any of these shows, but i can't really articulate why. i just think it's barrelscraping tasteless entertainment and think people must be a bit dim for liking it (snooty and unreasonable for sure, but that's what i think)


 
You like dressing up don't you?  You like presenting yourself in certain ways?  Do you feel different when you've gone to special effort from when you've slung on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt?   I'm presuming you feel confident in what you do with your clothes. Whether you are buying a cape or a pair of jeans you look for what you think suits you.  Not everyone does.  Sometimes they feel they are not dressing how they would like to see themselves in their head.  Sometimes they want a look which is totally incongruous to their body shape and while they keep striving to get that they willl never feel comfortable in their clothes.   It doesn't have to be looking like a supermodel or a page three model.  It might be that they want to look elegant or funky or sexy but never feel they manage it.   Maybe because they are using clothes that make people with different body shapes look elegant etc. but doesn't work on them.  
Also women's fashions have a higher turnaround so finding something in the shops now which suits is a new challenge every year, especially as your body might also be changing.  

Why look down on people who want to enjoy clothes as much as you already do?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> that makes you a bit of a fool


 
Can't help it. They're such tired, overused terms that whenever they crop up I can't help but put the user in a  box marked tosser.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> I'm not having a go. You'd know if I was. I'm asking why it's ok for you to want to look nice when you go out and if so, why isn't it ok for women to seek advice form someone they trust about what makes them look nice?


 
there's nothing wrong with women seeking advice from someone they trust about what makes them look nice. I just think they're ill-advised to trust a TV celebrity tbh.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> there's nothing wrong with women seeking advice from someone they trust about what makes them look nice. I just think they're ill-advised to trust a TV celebrity tbh.


 
He's not just a 'TV Celebrity', he's an experienced and respected stylist.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> What? If it's creepy for a bloke to be interested in the psychology of women tehn surely it's creepy for a bloke to be interested in poking round their cunts?


 
Do you think there's any connection about someone who makes glib remarks aabout the psychology of women, implicitly imputing that women share the same psychology purely by dint of their gender and a doctor who treats women in regards to gynaecological health?


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Who said there was anything wrong with any of that? Straw man....


 
If there is nothing wrong with that what's wrong with getting some help and advice if you are not enjoying the clothes you wear?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> You like dressing up don't you?  You like presenting yourself in certain ways?  Do you feel different when you've gone to special effort from when you've slung on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt?   I'm presuming you feel confident in what you do with your clothes. Whether you are buying a cape or a pair of jeans you look for what you think suits you.  Not everyone does.  Sometimes they feel they are not dressing how they would like to see themselves in their head.  Sometimes they want a look which is totally incongruous to their body shape and while they keep striving to get that they willl never feel comfortable in their clothes.   It doesn't have to be looking like a supermodel or a page three model.  It might be that they want to look elegant or funky or sexy but never feel they manage it.   Maybe because they are using clothes that make people with different body shapes look elegant etc. but doesn't work on them.
> Also women's fashions have a higher turnaround so finding something in the shops now which suits is a new challenge every year, especially as your body might also be changing.
> 
> Why look down on people who want to enjoy clothes as much as you already do?


i'm only looking down on people who seek all this from a telly programme


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Can't help it. They're such tired, overused terms that whenever they crop up I can't help but put the user in a  box marked tosser.


 
But the fact you raised as point no-one even hinted at but tried to claim they were saying that is ok? 

As for 'box marked tosser'..... Such cutting debate....


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Do you think there's any connection about someone who makes glib remarks aabout the psychology of women, implicitly imputing that women share the same psychology purely by dint of their gender and a doctor who treats women in regards to gynaecological health?


 
Who said it was glib? He's based his whole career on the psychology of women as related to appearance.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> there's nothing wrong with women seeking advice from someone they trust about what makes them look nice. I just think they're ill-advised to trust a TV celebrity tbh.


 
I'm guessing he was a stylist before he was a tv celebrity.  And I would imagine the women on there from the 2nd series onwards do trust him because they've seen the programme and liked what they saw.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> If there is nothing wrong with that what's wrong with getting some help and advice if you are not enjoying the clothes you wear?


 
And who said there was anything wrong with that....? Is this only possible with the imparted knowledge of Gok?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> He's not just a 'TV Celebrity', he's an experienced and respected stylist.


 
gah... I don't know... the whole thing just makes me want to rebel against it, it's telling people what to do, it hits my 'fuck you' button. Sorry. Can't help it.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> But the fact you raised as point no-one even hinted at but tried to claim they were saying that is ok?
> 
> As for 'box marked tosser'..... Such cutting debate....


 
Well, I'm sorry my debating skills aren't up to your high and mighty standards but can I remind you that we're discussing Gok fucking Wan.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> gah... I don't know... the whole thing just makes me want to rebel against it, it's telling people what to do, it hits my 'fuck you' button. Sorry. Can't help it.


 
i know exactly what you mean!


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> gah... I don't know... the whole thing just makes me want to rebel against it, it's telling people what to do, it hits my 'fuck you' button. Sorry. Can't help it.


 
It's giving people advice who have specifically asked for it, from him. he doesn't just wander up to people in the street and tell them they should look different.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Do you think there's any connection about someone who makes glib remarks aabout the psychology of women, implicitly imputing that women share the same psychology purely by dint of their gender and a doctor who treats women in regards to gynaecological health?


 
Was he implicitly imputing that? 

If someone says they are interested in the psychology of children does that mean they think all children are the same?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> It's giving people advice who have specifically asked for it, from him. he doesn't just wander up to people in the street and tell them they should look different.


 
you fell for his patter. others haven't.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Well, I'm sorry my debating skills aren't up to your high and mighty standards but can I remind you that we're discussing Gok fucking Wan.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Well, I'm sorry my debating skills aren't up to your high and mighty standards but can I remind you that we're discussing Gok fucking Wan.


 
Surely, given, as you say I get 'aereated' on therads about gok wan, why would I need reminding we're discussing gok wan? Which one is it?


----------



## boohoo (Jul 21, 2010)

The programme with the lady who had had breast cancer was good and inspirational to many women who had gone through the same thing. What is nice is he's not asking the participants to go through cosmetic surgery but learn to love the body they have.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> Was he implicitly imputing that?
> 
> If someone says they are interested in the psychology of children does that mean they think all children are the same?


 
To mention an interest, in passing, in 'The psychology of women' certainly implies to me that yes a rather broad bruish was being applied. It depends on context and whether there was any further expansion of the remarks doesn't it.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 21, 2010)

Ooer. Exploitative.

Other than the scale of the platform, I don't see any difference between what Gok does and what I do on my blog. Am I being exploitative?  I complement the best bits of people's figures while suggesting ways to disguise the bits they don't like.  That's all he's doing.  All the subjects know what's on the agenda when they apply (in their thousands, i'm certain) to be on the show.  

Is he doing it for his own ends - god yes, I'm sure he is. His twitterfeed is hysterical... he's even more Gok-like in real life.  There's a hell of a lot of attention seekers in the world - our tellies, cinemas, theatres and radios would be very dark and silent otherwise... it seems a bit odd to single him out over any other telly presenter. And then, well - unlike someone presenting a game show or whatever, he actually does make some people feel better about themselves.  

I mean, yes - fair enough, in an ideal world no one's self esteem would be wrapped up in how they look and no one would judge another on appearances... BUT not having tv stylists and makeovers isn't going to change that.  It won't make it better.  It just will mean that no one gets inspired to change they way they look and as a result feel more confident.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

boohoo said:


> The programme with the lady who had had breast cancer was good and inspirational to many women who had gone through the same thing. What is nice is he's not asking the participants to go through cosmetic surgery but learn to love the body they have.


 
Exactly.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> And who said there was anything wrong with that....? Is this only possible with the imparted knowledge of Gok?


 
Of course not.  Who suggested otherwise?  strawman yourself. 

So if I understand correctly you don't object to women wanting to improve their looks whatever that might entail.  You don't mind them going to an 'expert' so they can advise them what to wear to achieve that ends.  You just object to them going to Gok Wan to get that advice.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

Obviously I think all gynaecologists are perverts, because that is exactly the same sort of thing.

Of course there's nothing wrong with tailoring how you look, but Gok Wan doesn't just seem to be giving advice to people on how to dress. He seems to be taking people who have serious self confidence issues (like tonight, the woman saying she had lost all her confidence and started crying) and somehow magically making them feel very different about themselves just by putting them in some new clothes. Of course it's the producers making it more dramatic for TV, but it also makes some people think that self esteem issues can be sorted out just by wearing something different, when they're about much more than that.

Fashion/having a style/wearing make up <---(giant red star distance) ---->healthy sense of self

2 very different issues, for me, but Gok doesn't think so.

And don't take much from the psychology comment because I think he actually knows fuck all about psychology. It was just the way he spoke that gave the impression that he Women, for him, is a rather frustratingly distant Other for him..


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 21, 2010)

What gets me is if he thinks they all look so fucking fierce then why does he insist on anyone over4 a size twelve invest in some fucking fat suit?...sorry 'structured underwear to enhance their already faaabulous figure'


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> It's giving people advice who have specifically asked for it, from him. he doesn't just wander up to people in the street and tell them they should look different.


 
mmm... but basically it takes people who come and say 'I look crap, don't I ' and says 'yeah, you do. Oooh, let's have a good close detailed look at exactly how crap you look shall we?' before it makes them feel better. It makes me squirm.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Obviously I think all gynaecologists are perverts, because that is exactly the same sort of thing.
> 
> Of course there's nothing wrong with tailoring how you look, but Gok Wan doesn't just seem to be giving advice to people on how to dress. He seems to be taking people who have serious self confidence issues (like tonight, the woman saying she had lost all her confidence and started crying) and somehow magically making them feel very different about themselves just by putting them in some new clothes. Of course it's the producers making it more dramatic for TV, but it also makes some people think that self esteem issues can be sorted out just by wearing something different, when they're about much more than that.
> 
> ...


 
You've just contradicted yourself.

And as quimmy said earlier, he's been doing this for years now so where are the stories from his 'dissatisfied customers'?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> mmm... but basically it takes people who come and say 'I look crap, don't I ' and says 'yeah, you do. Oooh, let's have a good close detailed look at exactly how crap you look shall we?' before it makes them feel better. It makes me squirm.


 
No he doesn't  That's exactly the _opposite _of what he does.

Have you actually watched it?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> Of course not.  Who suggested otherwise?  strawman yourself.
> 
> So if I understand correctly you don't object to women wanting to improve their looks whatever that might entail.  You don't mind them going to an 'expert' so they can advise them what to wear to achieve that ends.  You just object to them going to Gok Wan to get that advice.


 
Welcome to the box marked tosser. 

Who am I rto 'mind' anything even close to that? I don't like his objectifying, ooooh look at me, oooohhh lovely bangers, ooooohh would you give her one-as he said tonight-aren't I radical and sooooo cool, knowing, sneering attitude.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 21, 2010)

The fact he's a bloke - why is that even remotely relevant?

because he's not speaking from a shared experience?  Should I only advise short, fat women with huge boobs on clothes?


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> To mention an interest, in passing, in 'The psychology of women' certainly implies to me that yes a rather broad bruish was being applied. It depends on context and whether there was any further expansion of the remarks doesn't it.


 
And does the mention of an interest in child psychology do the same then?   

Yes it does depend on those.   Not something you seemed bothered about when you decided what it meant earlier.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

spanglechick said:


> The fact he's a bloke - why is that even remotely relevant?


 
Well it's relevant to my having an opinion according to some.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Welcome to the box marked tosser.
> 
> Who am I rto 'mind' anything even close to that? I don't like his objectifying, ooooh look at me, oooohhh lovely bangers, ooooohh would you give her one-as he said tonight-aren't I radical and sooooo cool, knowing, sneering attitude.


 
How do you know what he said tonight?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> No he doesn't  That's exactly the _opposite _of what he does.
> 
> Have you actually watched it?


 
_yes_  he doesn't personally say 'you look shit love' but the whole point of the show is that it implies/reinforces their own idea that they look shit then he makes them look better. Otherwise why would they be there.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Well it's relevant to my having an opinion according to some.


 
Oh do shut up


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> And does the mention of an interest in child psychology do the same then?
> 
> Yes it does depend on those.   Not something you seemed bothered about when you decided what it meant earlier.


 
To someone who might have a genuine interest no, but if it was to further their career in fashion, womens fashion, they yes it does have a rather creepy feel. In my opinion anyway.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> _yes_  he doesn't personally say 'you look shit love' but the whole point of the show is that it implies/reinforces their own idea that they look shit then he makes them look better. Otherwise why would they be there.


 
What the _fuck _are you on about? 

They come to him because they think they look shit - he convinces them they don't.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> How do you know what he said tonight?


 
You'd be fucking raging if I had an opinion on it if I didn't watch it wouldn't you. After all you just questioned weepiper on whether she watched it.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> To someone who might have a genuine interest no, but if it was to further their career in fashion, womens fashion, they yes it does have a rather creepy feel. In my opinion anyway.



So you don't think fashion has anything to do with psychology?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> You'd be fucking raging if I had an opinion on it if I didn't watch it wouldn't you. After all you just questioned weepiper on whether she watched it.


 
Are you saying you only watched it so you could get involved in this thread?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> What the _fuck _are you on about?
> 
> They come to him because they think they look shit - he convinces them they don't.


 
no he doesn't. He changes their image. They go away looking completely different from when they first appear.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 21, 2010)

Clair De Lune said:


> What gets me is if he thinks they all look so fucking fierce then why does he insist on anyone over4 a size twelve invest in some fucking fat suit?...sorry 'structured underwear to enhance their already faaabulous figure'


 
well, because the people he's working with aren't stupid or blind, and because he's not waving a magic wand over their self-esteem.  If someone feels down because they don't like their lumps and bumps, one thing they can do to look happy is wear some control undies.  and some flatteringly cut clothes.  They're not going to buy it if he says 'you don't have any lumps' or if he says 'love your lumps in this skintight catsuit' or even 'hide them away in a tent so no one can see what body shape you have'.

Equally, the photoshoot is carefully posed to accentuate the positive and mask the negative.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> So you don't think fashion has anything to do with psychology?


 
Amongst many many other things yes. That doesn't make, what could well be a claim that all women share a psychology purely by dint of their gender any less daft/creepy though does it.


----------



## moomoo (Jul 21, 2010)

You lot do realise you are arguing over Gok Wan right?  Why? It's really not that important...


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> no he doesn't. He changes their image. They go away looking completely different from when they first appear.


 
Oh jesus 

They go to him with issues about their physicality. He changes absolutely nothing about their physicality just shows them how to wear nice clothes. He constantly reinforces that there is NOTHING wrong with their bodies.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Are you saying you only watched it so you could get involved in this thread?


 
No, this debate is almost a carbon copy of one at work, it's uncanny. There's a mixture of opinions in my section at work too. Some l;ove him some don't.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

moomoo said:


> You lot do realise you are arguing over Gok Wan right?  Why? It's really not that important...


 
It was intended as a light hearted thread but the usual suspects turned up


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Oh jesus
> 
> They go to him with issues about their physicality. He changes absolutely nothing about their physicality just shows them how to wear nice clothes. He constantly reinforces that there is NOTHING wrong with their bodies.


 
great. He's marginally better than the shows that pay for the women to get cosmetic work done.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> great. He's marginally better than the shows that pay for the women to get cosmetic work done.



Have you read Spangles' posts? Is what she does for people on here only marginally better than telling people they need cosmetic surgery?


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

spanglechick said:


> well, because the people he's working with aren't stupid or blind, and because he's not waving a magic wand over their self-esteem.  If someone feels down because they don't like their lumps and bumps, one thing they can do to look happy is wear some control undies.  and some flatteringly cut clothes.  They're not going to buy it if he says 'you don't have any lumps' or if he says 'love your lumps in this skintight catsuit' or even 'hide them away in a tent so no one can see what body shape you have'.
> 
> Equally, the photoshoot is carefully posed to accentuate the positive and mask the negative.



Aye, thereby perpetuating the idea that there is positive and negative when it comes to (especially women's) body shape. All the while trying to make us believe that he will make us all feel great about our bodies.

I'd much better if there wasn't some ideal he was trying to make us all conform to.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> _yes_  he doesn't personally say 'you look shit love' but the whole point of the show is that it implies/reinforces their own idea that they look shit then he makes them look better. Otherwise why would they be there.


 


weepiper said:


> no he doesn't. He changes their image. They go away looking completely different from when they first appear.


 
Ahh - he might criticise their clothes, but never their body.

the first thing he does is the undies in the mirror thing where they talk about what they don't like and he points out all the good points.  then they do the bit in a public place with the undies photos blown up huge and they get all the members of public to say nice things about the body.  

THEN they look at clothes.  The clothes might be mentioned in voiceover before then, in thaat irritating way C4 have of trailing all the stuff that's coming up...  but the process for the subject deals with body confidence first and then clothes come along to help.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> He constantly reinforces that there is NOTHING wrong with their bodies.


 
Really? But he's always saying things like 'draws attention to THIS area' implying that there's another area we don't want our attention drawn to.

Also pointing out the good points is still a way of separating the body parts from the actual person. It's no better, in my view, than pointing out the parts that they don't like.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

Whats so wrong about changing your image if the one you have makes you miserable................sometimes it might take another person to suggest something you hadn't considered before and if that makes you feel better and happier so what.....

or is this really about not liking gok ?

( have to say i'm neither a lover or hater of his show, haven't watched it in an age)


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Have you read Spangles' posts? Is what she does for people on here only marginally better than telling people they need cosmetic surgery?


 
When I've seen spangles advise people on here it's been because they've come with a specific query, they want a certain outfit but can't find anything that seems to suit, or want to know how to hide/accentuate a particular bit of themselves... when I've seen Gok it's been women who present with serious unhappiness, self-image and self-esteem issues, and it's like they're submitting themselves to the public, I don't see it as the same thing. I wouldn't see it as the same thing if they were going to see a style consultant privately either.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Aye, thereby perpetuating the idea that there is positive and negative when it comes to (especially women's) body shape. All the while trying to make us believe that he will make us all feel great about our bodies.
> 
> I'd much better if there wasn't some ideal he was trying to make us all conform to.


 
He does it for men too.

And balls to the 'ideal' comment. There has been an aesthetic ideal attached to every historical period so far. It's not new and we have all opted in for as long as we've been wearing clothes. People enjoy looking good and always have. If you were talking about cosmetic surgery then I'd agree with you but that is a million miles from what Gok Wan does.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

weepiper said:


> When I've seen spangles advise people on here it's been because they've come with a specific query, they want a certain outfit but can't find anything that seems to suit, or want to know how to hide/accentuate a particular bit of themselves... when I've seen Gok it's been women who present with serious unhappiness, self-image and self-esteem issues, and it's like they're submitting themselves to the public, I don't see it as the same thing. I wouldn't see it as the same thing if they were going to see a style consultant privately either.


 
So, it's just that it's on the telly.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> He does it for men too.
> 
> And balls to the 'ideal' comment. There has been an aesthetic ideal attached to every historical period so far. It's not new and we have all opted in for as long as we've been wearing clothes. People enjoy looking good and always have. If you were talking about cosmetic surgery then I'd agree with you but that is a million miles from what Gok Wan does.



Fine, really, but as I said before my main issue is that he tries to make us believe that he is LIBERATING us from this ideal.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 21, 2010)

spanglechick said:


> well, because the people he's working with aren't stupid or blind, and because he's not waving a magic wand over their self-esteem.  If someone feels down because they don't like their lumps and bumps, one thing they can do to look happy is wear some control undies.  and some flatteringly cut clothes.  They're not going to buy it if he says 'you don't have any lumps' or if he says 'love your lumps in this skintight catsuit' or even 'hide them away in a tent so no one can see what body shape you have'.
> 
> Equally, the photoshoot is carefully posed to accentuate the positive and mask the negative.


 
well I brought it up cos I happen to think that a lot of people he puts em on don't need them. He seems to do it as a matter of course. I dunno I just think the premise of the show is meant to be making women feel good about the figure they have, so the control pants etc defeat the object of that. Perhaps it's how he keeps emphasising their use I dunno.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, it's just that it's on the telly.


 
yeah, presented as entertainment. there's the rub.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Fine, really, but as I said before my main issue is that he tries to make us believe that he is LIBERATING us from this ideal.


 
In what way does he do that?


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Aye, thereby perpetuating the idea that there is positive and negative when it comes to (especially women's) body shape. All the while trying to make us believe that he will make us all feel great about our bodies.
> 
> I'd much better if there wasn't some ideal he was trying to make us all conform to.


 


smmudge said:


> Really? But he's always saying things like 'draws attention to THIS area' implying that there's another area we don't want our attention drawn to.
> 
> Also pointing out the good points is still a way of separating the body parts from the actual person. It's no better, in my view, than pointing out the parts that they don't like.


 
but as I said, these people - they're not stupid.  They have very clear opinions about what they think are good and bad points about human bodies.  They subscribe to the predominant cultural perception of what makes a beautiful body.  If they didn't, they wouldn't need or want Gok - they'd be happy with how they look anyway.  Obviously, this would be great, but it's a little bit outwith the remit of an hour's telly.

we'd all love to not give a shit about how our bodies measure up to the perceived ideals... but that's something massive that society needs to work on as a whole, and perhaps a lot of us need serious, improbable amounts of re-programming to accept.  In the meantime, we can make ourself happier if we learn how to get ahead playing the societal ideals at their own game.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

Clair De Lune said:


> well I brought it up cos I happen to think that a lot of people he puts em on don't need them. He seems to do it as a matter of course. I dunno I just think the premise of the show is meant to be making women feel good about the figure they have, so the control pants etc defeat the object of that. Perhaps it's how he keeps emphasising their use I dunno.


 i'd hazard a guess that he gets kickbacks from the manufacturers


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Clair De Lune said:


> well I brought it up cos I happen to think that a lot of people he puts em on don't need them. He seems to do it as a matter of course. I dunno I just think the premise of the show is meant to be making women feel good about the figure they have, so the control pants etc defeat the object of that. Perhaps it's how he keeps emphasising their use I dunno.


 
I liked that corset thing he put her in tonight though.

And anyway, we do look aesthetically better with smooth lines. My only concern would be about taking them off 

Budoing!


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 21, 2010)

Clair De Lune said:


> well I brought it up cos I happen to think that a lot of people he puts em on don't need them. He seems to do it as a matter of course. I dunno I just think the premise of the show is meant to be making women feel good about the figure they have, so the control pants etc defeat the object of that. Perhaps it's how he keeps emphasising their use I dunno.


 
Nah - he doesn't do it on everyone, but he does do it on all of them who say they're unhappy with having bulges. Which is most of them.  But that's because he's listening to what they're unhappy about.  He also puts those who need it in a proper bra giving them uplift and shape... and I genuinely don't see any difference between a decent, uplifting bra and magic pants.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i'd hazard a guess that he gets kickbacks from the manufacturers


 
He has his own range of control underwear but the stuff he uses on the show doesn't look like it. I have one of his all in one corset things and it's really nice.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Of course there's nothing wrong with tailoring how you look, but Gok Wan doesn't just seem to be giving advice to people on how to dress. He seems to be taking people who have serious self confidence issues (like tonight, the woman saying she had lost all her confidence and started crying) and somehow magically making them feel very different about themselves just by putting them in some new clothes. Of course it's the producers making it more dramatic for TV, but it also makes some people think that self esteem issues can be sorted out just by wearing something different, when they're about much more than that.


 
I could feel fabulously confident about my ability to run the country, or to teach young children maths, or to orate on the history of macrame  in front of hundreds, yet lack self-esteem in how I look or how my attire represents me.  So I might get advice on other ways to dress myself.  I certainly know that how I am dressed can make a big difference to how I feel. What shoes I wear make a difference to how I feel.  

I might feel confident in how I dress, run the country and teach young children maths but feel horribly self-concious orating on the history of macrame in front of hundreds.  For that I would go to someone other than a stylist.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 21, 2010)

pretend to be gay, fondle breasts. He has managed it. I salute the pretend gay.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 21, 2010)

spanglechick said:


> Nah - he doesn't do it on everyone, but he does do it on all of them who say they're unhappy with having bulges. Which is most of them.  But that's because he's listening to what they're unhappy about.  He also puts those who need it in a proper bra giving them uplift and shape... and I genuinely don't see any difference between a decent, uplifting bra and magic pants.


 
Fair enough, I have only seen bout six shows.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

spanglechick said:


> we'd all love to not give a shit about how our bodies measure up to the perceived ideals... but that's something massive that society needs to work on as a whole, and perhaps a lot of us need serious, improbable amounts of re-programming to accept.  In the meantime, we can make ourself happier if we learn how to get ahead playing the societal ideals at their own game.



I don't believe this programme is playing the societal ideals at their own game or being savvy about it, I think it's perpetuating it in a way that is counter to all the work that society has already put in trying to work out these issues.



madzone said:


> In what way does he do that?


 
Saying it doesn't matter what body shape you are (though it clearly does), it's not all about stick thin supermodels, it's all about making sure the teens don't want to get cosmetic surgery etc. Just the discourse in general really.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I could feel fabulously confident about my ability to run the country, or to teach young children maths, or to orate on the history of macrame  in front of hundreds, yet lack self-esteem in how I look or how my attire represents me.  So I might get advice on other ways to dress myself.  I certainly know that how I am dressed can make a big difference to how I feel. What shoes I wear make a difference to how I feel.
> 
> I might feel confident in how I dress, run the country and teach young children maths but feel horribly self-concious orating on the history of macrame in front of hundreds.  For that I would go to someone other than a stylist.


 
Makes perfect sense and I agree. However is it entertainment to 'broadcast' those insecuritites for the pleasure/viewing of others? Whilst being undressed for the viewing pleasure of others? Is it ok in that process to refer to parts of your figure that can be accentuated in order to cover up, de-emphasis another part of your physique, which effectively means you have something to 'hide' or cover up? Advice is something we all seek from time to time.... This, imho, is not merely about advice, it's about playing on the insecuritiers of the subject and masking them whilst portraying himself as somehow liberating those women......


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I don't believe this programme is playing the societal ideals at their own game or being savvy about it, I think it's perpetuating it in a way that is counter to* all the work that society has already put in trying to work out these issues.
> *
> 
> .


 
what work is that then ?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I don't believe this programme is playing the societal ideals at their own game or being savvy about it, I think it's perpetuating it


 
yes!


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I don't believe this programme is playing the societal ideals at their own game or being savvy about it, I think it's perpetuating it in a way that is counter to all the work that society has already put in trying to work out these issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Saying it doesn't matter what body shape you are (though it clearly does), it's not all about stick thin supermodels, it's all about making sure the teens don't want to get cosmetic surgery etc. Just the discourse in general really.


 
You're talking about ideals again. The programme is dealing with the way things are. I could choose not to wear make up or dye my hair and I'd me more fucking miserable than I am now. I'm not going to spend my life feeling miserable just to wave the flag for some ideals.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Makes perfect sense and I agree. However is it entertainment to 'broadcast' those insecuritites for the pleasure/viewing of others? Whilst being undressed for the viewing pleasure of others? Is it ok in that process to refer to parts of your figure that can be accentuated in order to cover up, de-emphasis another part of your physique, which effectively means you have something to 'hide' or cover up? Advice is something we all seek from time to time.... This, imho, is not merely about advice, it's about playing on the insecuritiers of the subject and masking them whilst portraying himself as somehow liberating those women......


 

Pleasure? How about information? I watch it to get his advice via how he deals with the women on the show. I don't watch it for some vicarious thrill.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Fine, really, but as I said before my main issue is that he tries to make us believe that he is LIBERATING us from this ideal.


 
Up to a limited point he is.  It's about making the most of what you have rather than trying to look like a willowy size 10 model. 

I've spent a lot of time trying to straighten myself out into a body shape that isn't mine, rather than wearing stuff that makes use of the curves I have.   i.e.  I'm a larger size on top and smaller on my bottom half.  Instead of trying to balance myself by making the top half smaller I might flatter my figure more by bringing out my narrow hips a bit more.  But it's not always obvious what is the best way to do this. Anyway that's  moving away from the ''ideal'' rather than towards it.  In fact I'm moving towards '_my_ ideal.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> what work is that then ?


 
Exactly


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I don't believe this programme is playing the societal ideals at their own game or being savvy about it, I think it's perpetuating it in a way that is counter to all the work that society has already put in trying to work out these issues.


 if you were to hear what some of the men at my work say about these programmes, you'd be depressed


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I could feel fabulously confident about my ability to run the country, or to teach young children maths, or to orate on the history of macrame  in front of hundreds, yet lack self-esteem in how I look or how my attire represents me.  So I might get advice on other ways to dress myself.  I certainly know that how I am dressed can make a big difference to how I feel. What shoes I wear make a difference to how I feel.
> 
> I might feel confident in how I dress, run the country and teach young children maths but feel horribly self-concious orating on the history of macrame in front of hundreds.  For that I would go to someone other than a stylist.


 
Ok, but surely feeling that you lack the ability to dress yourself properly, only to the extent that a stylist could sort out the problem, wouldn't bring you to tears? 

If I had trouble orating on the history of macrame to the point that I started to cry, I think I would want to explore some deeper anxiety issues about standing up in front of people, rather than just look at my knowledge of the history of macrame.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Pleasure? How about information? I watch it to get his advice via how he deals with the women on the show. I don't watch it for some vicarious thrill.


 
So, you get no pleasure from a programme you enoy? You seriously think it's just about the information?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> So, you get no pleasure from a programme you enoy? You seriously think it's just about the information?


 
Yes. Because it is.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Makes perfect sense and I agree. However is it entertainment to 'broadcast' those insecuritites for the pleasure/viewing of others? Whilst being undressed for the viewing pleasure of others?



Have to say this bit does rather get to me at times but his show certainly doesn't corner the market on that issue.....



> * Is it ok in that process to refer to parts of your figure that can be accentuated in order to cover up, de-emphasis another part of your physique, which effectively means you have something to 'hide' or cover up?* Advice is something we all seek from time to time.... This, imho, is not merely about advice, it's about playing on the insecuritiers of the subject and masking them whilst portraying himself as somehow liberating those women......


 
Do you have no part of yourself that you aren't so happy with ? do you dress to make yourself look as good as you can in your opinion ?


----------



## boohoo (Jul 21, 2010)

spanglechick said:


> Nah - he doesn't do it on everyone, but he does do it on all of them who say they're unhappy with having bulges. Which is most of them.  But that's because he's listening to what they're unhappy about.  He also puts those who need it in a proper bra giving them uplift and shape... and I genuinely don't see any difference between a decent, uplifting bra and magic pants.



Good undies is often the essential to making clothes look good- whether you have a little or a lot of boobs, bum, tum. I see a lot of women with bad bras sizes, undies digging into flesh creating double buttocks and emphasizing bulges. Nowt wrong with good uplifting, bra with no cup runneth over and undies shaping curves and not creating odd lumps and bumps.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Yes. Because it is.


 
So it's purely advice and not entertainment?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> So it's purely advice and not entertainment?


 
Yes. I see nothing 'entertaining' about it tbh. I watch it to see what he advises and I find the change in the women inspirational.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Yes. Because it is.


 
lots of people watch it to laugh at the fatties


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

> if you were to hear what some of the men at my work say about these programmes, you'd be depressed





i bet i can guess


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> Have to say this bit does rather get to me at times but his show certainly doesn't corner the market on that issue.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes, but i'm not the subject of entertainment or public viewing whilst making that choice. I dress how I like, what I enjoy, not what I 'should' be wearing to be 'on trend', as defined by others. Nor am I having my insecurities paraded as entertainment, sorry information.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> lots of people watch it to laugh at the fatties


 
And that's entirely up to them


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Yes, but i'm not the subject of entertainment or public viewing whilst making that choice. I dress how I like, what I enjoy, not what I 'should' be wearing to be 'on trend', as defined by others. Nor am I having my insecurities paraded as entertainment, sorry information.


 
Define entertainment


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Define entertainment


 
television


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Define entertainment


 
Depends on what you like, ffs we disagree on a single tv programme. What I find entertaining is not de facto entertainment for others.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> what work is that then ?


 
Maybe the huge body of feminist literature published over the last hundred or so years?!?!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Depends on what you like, ffs we disagree on a single tv programme. What I find entertaining is not de facto entertainment for others.


 
programmes like this are called factual entertainment in the industry


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> programmes like this are called factual entertainment in the industry


 
So it is 'entertainment' then?!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> So it is 'entertainment' then?!


 of course it is - it's primetime tv


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> of course it is - it's primetime tv


 
Thankyou.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Maybe the huge body of feminist literature published over the last hundred or so years?!?!


 
Oh, that's worked a treat hasn't it? 

 Women's body image is the worst it's ever been to the point where the age of children with eating disorders is in single figures and women pay thousands of pounds to be sliced up to fuck.

Are you a sociology student?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Depends on what you like, ffs we disagree on a single tv programme. What I find entertaining is not de facto entertainment for others.


 
So, why give me the spanish fucking inquisition when I say I don't find it entertaining?


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Maybe the huge body of feminist literature published over the last hundred or so years?!?!


 
well seeing as i don't know 1 single woman that is happy with the way they look (whatever their size, shape etc) something has gone seriously backwards.........


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> Oh, that's worked a treat hasn't it?


 
Yes, it has!

And no I'm not a sociology student.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, why give me the spanish fucking inquisition when I say I don't find it entertaining?


 
Given I didn't i'm at a loss as to your non-point. It's entertainment though however much you may see it as high brow public information altruism.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Makes perfect sense and I agree. However is it entertainment to 'broadcast' those insecuritites for the pleasure/viewing of others? Whilst being undressed for the viewing pleasure of others? Is it ok in that process to refer to parts of your figure that can be accentuated in order to cover up, de-emphasis another part of your physique, which effectively means you have something to 'hide' or cover up? Advice is something we all seek from time to time.... This, imho, is not merely about advice, it's about playing on the insecuritiers of the subject and masking them whilst portraying himself as somehow liberating those women......


 
But it's not just broadcasting those insecurities.  It's broadcasting the move from having them to feeling better about themselves in the area of body image, with, possibly some other knock on effects.  It's not just entertaining for the fans of the show, it's encouraging and informative.   

Gok helps women and the tv people whilst helping himself.  The tv people help Gok and the women whilst helping themselves and the women get help themselves while helping Gok and the tv people.  I still don't understand how you think it's fine for women to adorn themselves in whatever way they feel happy but you think it's wrong for them to put themselves in Gok's hands to help them achieve this.  

Whatever you feel about his personality or him being creepy they presumably don't feel the same, so why worry?  It's them putting themselves in his hands not you.   If I don't like a friend's boyfriend and think,'' ooh I couldn't bear to have him touching me.  I don't know what she sees in him'', I still accept that if she is happy then his personality type works must work for her.  Maybe she doesn't like his every characteristic but there are more pluses for her than minuses.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Yes, it has!
> 
> And no I'm not a sociology student.


In what way has it worked?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Given I didn't i'm at a loss as to your non-point. It's entertainment though however much you may see it as high brow public information altruism.


 
I don't find it entertaining


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Yes, it has!
> 
> And no I'm not a sociology student.


 
Just how has it worked over, say the last 20 years in regards to the way women look and are perceived then ?

it's going backwards as far as i can see...............


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> Just how has it worked over, say the last 20 years in regards to the way women look and are perceived then ?
> 
> it's going backwards as far as i can see...............


 without feminism, no one would be discussing this right now


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 21, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> But it's not just broadcasting those insecurities.  It's broadcasting the move from having them to feeling better about themselves in the area of body image, with, possibly some other knock on effects.  It's not just entertaining for the fans of the show, it's encouraging and informative.
> 
> Gok helps women and the tv people whilst helping himself.  The tv people help Gok and the women whilst helping themselves and the women get help themselves while helping Gok and the tv people.  I still don't understand how you think it's fine for women to adorn themselves in whatever way they feel happy but you think it's wrong for them to put themselves in Gok's hands to help them achieve this.
> 
> Whatever you feel about his personality or him being creepy they presumably don't feel the same, so why worry?  It's them putting themselves in his hands not you.   If I don't like a friend's boyfriend and think,'' ooh I couldn't bear to have him touching me.  I don't know what she sees in him'', I still accept that if she is happy then his personality type works must work for her.  Maybe she doesn't like his every characteristic but there are more pluses for her than minuses.


 
It's a thread on a message board, I have an opinion, it's not worry, it's just an opinion as such i'm expressing it. programmes can inform and exploit, these things aren't incompatible or mutually esclusive. Women to who choose to adron themselves in any way they please, as you put it, aren't having it done to them in the name of entertainment and ratings. That, i'm sure you'll agree is a tad different to the whole notion of a tv programme doing the same thing. It becomes something different. 

Btw, if your pals boyfriend behaves in what you see as a creepy manner would you say something?


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> without feminism, no one would be discussing this right now


 
You're confusing feminism with the internet


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 21, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Yes, but i'm not the subject of entertainment or public viewing whilst making that choice. I dress how I like, what I enjoy, not what I 'should' be wearing to be 'on trend', as defined by others. Nor am I having my insecurities paraded as entertainment, sorry information.


 
I think wanting to dress to feel good and wanting or being willing to be on telly are two different things which will sometimes occur in the same person.  That person applies to go on Gok Wan, or some other programme. 

Thing is, for women, what's ''on trend'' is what you will find available in the shops to buy.  Gok's job is not really to tell people what is ''on trend'' and they should therefore be wearing, but to find things within what is ''on trend'' and therefore readily available in the shops that will suit the woman in question's body shape.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 21, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> Just how has it worked over, say the last 20 years in regards to the way women look and are perceived then ?
> 
> it's going backwards as far as i can see...............


 
Maybe. My timescale was in the ~150 years though.

How long has Gok Wan been working for? 20 years I bet.


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

How has feminism worked?


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Maybe. My timescale was in the ~150 years though.
> 
> How long has Gok Wan been working for? 20 years I bet.


 
Ok then tell me when was the golden time when the way women look/dressed has not been an issue ?

I hold my hand up, i hate the way my body is.....to a deep and painful degree and i'm not immune to the pressures of our society and at the same time it all makes me sad and it's got far more to do with making money than anything else........people have always been interested in thsi subject, not a culture in the world that hasn't got a percived notion of what is "attractive".....difference with ours is we have a huge, money making industry feeding off it !


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> How has feminism worked?


 

Women are now expected to compete in the job market with men AND rear children. Progress!


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 21, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Maybe. My timescale was in the ~150 years though.
> 
> How long has Gok Wan been working for? 20 years I bet.


 
15ish (as a stylist). He's 36.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 21, 2010)

madzone said:


> You're confusing feminism with the internet


 
no i am not. men wouldn't be letting their wives be having opinions, let alone letting them loose on the internet


----------



## madzone (Jul 21, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Women are now expected to compete in the job market with men AND rear children. Progress!


 
AND look like supermodels!

Go feminism!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> How has feminism worked?


 
fucksake, never mind. you can be so obtuse sometimes


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> no i am not. men wouldn't be letting their wives be having opinions, let alone letting them loose on the internet


 
Some still don't.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> AND look like supermodels!
> 
> Go feminism!


 
yes ask my bright, clever 12 yr old niece what she want to be when she grows up and the answer is a "wag"......we've come a loooong way


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> fucksake, never mind. you can be so obtuse sometimes



Obtuse?? I'm asking someone who claimed that 100 years of feminist writing had worked towards womens body issues being dealt with exactly how that can be when we have the highest rates of body dissatisfaction in our entire history. How the fuck is that being obtuse?


----------



## smmudge (Jul 22, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> Ok then tell me when was the golden time when the way women look/dressed has not been an issue ?



I'm not saying there was any such time, I'm saying that women are allowed to do more now than just sitting around looking pretty.


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I'm not saying there was any such time, I'm saying that women are allowed to do more now than just sitting around looking pretty.


 
You've moved your goalposts somewhat


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I'm not saying there was any such time, I'm saying that women are allowed to do more now than just sitting around looking pretty.


 
No now they are allowed to do much more than sit around but must _still_ look pretty at the same time..........


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I'm not saying there was any such time, I'm saying that women are allowed to do more now than just sitting around looking pretty.


 
true - but it really hasn't worked in terms of our society not valuing certain body shapes.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 22, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> yes ask my bright, clever 12 yr old niece what she want to be when she grows up and the answer is a "wag"......we've come a loooong way


 
Oh, so she has a choice!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> Obtuse?? I'm asking someone who claimed that 100 years of feminist writing had worked towards womens body issues being dealt with exactly how that can be when we have the highest rates of body dissatisfaction in our entire history. How the fuck is that being obtuse?


 
maybe i'm misreading your posts and others, but they seem to suggest that feminism has been all in vain.


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> No now they are allowed to do much more than sit around but must _still_ look pretty at the same time..........



Not just allowed to look pretty, it's a requirement to be a certain body shape. Which is why I value Gok Wan because he doesn't conform to that ideal.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 22, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> No now they are allowed to do much more than sit around but must _still_ look pretty at the same time..........


 
Yes,_ according to Gok Wan_. Which is my problem with him!


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> AND look like supermodels!
> 
> Go feminism!


 
problem is, right, is that the aims and objectives of feminism were and are completely laudable and right. It managed to get hijacked by the fucking bourgeoisie and so what we ended up with is Girl Power sold back to the little darlings as revolution. Capital does this, it eats your rebellion and serves you up a regurgitated version of it. For profit.


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> maybe i'm misreading your posts and others, but they seem to suggest that feminism has been all in vain.


 
In terms of women and body image it has been a monumental failure as far as I can see.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 22, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> It's a thread on a message board, I have an opinion, it's not worry, it's just an opinion as such i'm expressing it. programmes can inform and exploit, these things aren't incompatible or mutually esclusive. Women to who choose to adron themselves in any way they please, as you put it, aren't having it done to them in the name of entertainment and ratings. That, i'm sure you'll agree is a tad different to the whole notion of a tv programme doing the same thing. It becomes something different.
> 
> Btw, if your pals boyfriend behaves in what you see as a creepy manner would you say something?



Some of them are doing it in the name of entertainment and ratings or are willing to do so to get the help and advice they want.  As I just said.  Some people want to be on telly, some people want advice on clothes and some people want both.   

 No I wouldn't not unless I thought it was doing her harm in some way, and even then possibly not. And she can fuck the fuck off telling me how she feels my boyfriend fall short of her preferences too.  We're different people who need different qualities in a boyfriend.   Creepy is subjective as evidenced by this thread.  Also for example what is my gushing and sycophantic is another's supportive and positive...


----------



## smmudge (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> Not just allowed to look pretty, it's a requirement to be a certain body shape. Which is why I value Gok Wan because he doesn't conform to that ideal.


 
He conforms to all the ideals!


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> In terms of women and body image it has been a monumental failure as far as I can see.


 
that's hardly feminism's fault though.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge said:


> Yes,_ according to Gok Wan_. Which is my problem with him!


 
Just according to Gok ????

are you serious ?


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> that's hardly feminism's fault though.


 
I didn't say it was the fault of feminism, just that it has failed in that respect.


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge said:


> He conforms to all the ideals!


 
No.

He.

Doesn't.



Maybe if I say it slowly.....


----------



## smmudge (Jul 22, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> Just according to Gok ????
> 
> are you serious ?


 
He joins in with a loud and influential voice.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> I didn't say it was the fault of feminism, just that it has failed in that respect.


 
fair dos. i'm off to bed.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 22, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> Women are now expected to compete in the job market with men AND rear children. Progress!


 
And look pretty for their husbands.  Don't forget that.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 22, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> problem is, right, is that the aims and objectives of feminism were and are completely laudable and right. It managed to get hijacked by the fucking bourgeoisie and so what we ended up with is Girl Power sold back to the little darlings as revolution. Capital does this, it eats your rebellion and serves you up a regurgitated version of it. For profit.


 
QFT

although you could replace _capital_ with _men_ and it'd still make sense, regardless


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge - where do you draw the line? Shaving? Make up? Hair styles? Where do we begin conforming to the ideals and how far should we go in our actions to ensure we avoid perpetuating them?


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 22, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> problem is, right, is that the aims and objectives of feminism were and are completely laudable and right. It managed to get hijacked by the fucking bourgeoisie and so what we ended up with is Girl Power sold back to the little darlings as revolution. Capital does this, it eats your rebellion and serves you up a regurgitated version of it. For profit.


 
What i was trying to say but i'm not as clever or as articulate as you dotty !


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 22, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> Some of them are doing it in the name of entertainment and ratings or are willing to do so to get the help and advice they want.  As I just said.  Some people want to be on telly, some people want advice on clothes and some people want both.



None of which 'need' to be done to make gok look good. Just because someone wants to be on tv is it a good idea to use their insecuirities as entertainment however 'well meaning'?  It can be done in other non voyeuristic ways, in my opinion. 



> No I wouldn't not unless I thought it was doing her harm in some way, and even then possibly not. And she can fuck the fuck off telling me how she feels my boyfriend fall short of her preferences too.  We're different people who need different qualities in a boyfriend.   Creepy is subjective as evidenced by this thread.  Also for example what is my gushing and sycophantic is another's supportive and positive...


 
But if it turns out he is creepy and you said nothing? And she of your boyfriend? Of course it's what we feel/think personally on the matter.


----------



## smmudge (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> smmudge - where do you draw the line? Shaving? Make up? Hair styles? Where do we begin conforming to the ideals and how far should we go in our actions to ensure we avoid perpetuation them?


 
I don't draw the line anywhere. Our actions are not as important as our reasons for doing them.


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I don't draw the line anywhere. Our actions are not as important as our reasons for doing them.


 
Nice question avoidance there


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 22, 2010)

The thing about accentuating and disguising body parts is very relevant to me - it's exactly what I do on my blog - so forgive...

there isn't just one ideal body.  There's being short, which is seen as feminine, but there's having long legs, which is fabulous and sexy.  Having big boobs tends to be a 'good thing', but having pert and perky ones is great too.  Tiny Kylie bum = fab, big round bubble-butt = also great.  There's a very broad range of positives, so when Gok (or I, in my smaller way) suggest drawing attention to a feature, it's not promoting one singular ideal.  And it's often boobs.  they're near the face, so we notice them, and more people have 'great' boobs than have other 'great' features (good legs are much rarer).  Also, playing up the boobs works on most overweight women...  a decent bra is all that's needed, rather than months in the gym...

then there are body parts generally acknowledged to be negative.  Big flat bums, thick ankles, tummies bigger than your boobs. fat upper arms.  it's really brilliant that some people don't see those as bad, but some people really hate themselves for those body parts.  Now perhaps therapy is the long-term solution, but in the meantime, it's not so hard to dress in such a way as to disguise them.   And that does give people a confidence boost.  It makes them happier.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 22, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> None of which 'need' to be done to make gok look good. Just because someone wants to be on tv is it a good idea to use their insecuirities as entertainment however 'well meaning'?  It can be done in other non voyeuristic ways, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> But if it turns out he is creepy and you said nothing? And she of your boyfriend? Of course it's what we feel/think personally on the matter.


 


I won't be able to crow '' I told you so!!!!''  after she ignores my advice to dump him on the basis of my dislike of him,  and the relationship subsequently turns sour.   

What is it you actually mean by creepy anyway?

E2A:  No it doesn't have to be done that way.  It's one way of doing it.  Some choose it, some don't.  I don't want to be on telly, nor do I want to fork out for a stylist. I'll just have to manage as best I can with what is available to me.


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

I think you're on a  hiding to nothing spangles. Some people seem very entrenched in their beliefs.


----------



## mentalchik (Jul 22, 2010)

smmudge said:


> I don't draw the line anywhere. Our actions are not as important as our reasons for doing them.


 
Ok so what are 'good' reasons then ?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 22, 2010)

Crispy said:


> QFT
> 
> although you could replace _capital_ with _men_ and it'd still make sense, regardless


 

well of course, marxism deals with the concept of inequality in the economic realm which is why it dovetails with the feminist critiques that deal with gender inequality. I leave the latter to our capable sistrens cos they either take the piss out of you or have a moan cos you get it wrong. RETREAT! They have it covered.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 22, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I won't be able to crow '' I told you so!!!!''  after she ignores my advice to dump him on the basis of my dislike of him,  and the relationship turns sour.



Hehehe  



> What is it you actually mean by creepy anyway?



Apart from that 'indefinable' something that sets my teeth on edge, his rather slimy reference to womens 'bangers'. His asking a fella tonight if he'd 'give her one' right in front of the woman in question like a 13 yr old schoolboy who still struggles with socialising with others. And then sees it as some triumph that some bloke views her as worth 'giving one' is somehow 'liberating' and 'different'. Not completely objectifyinf the woman at all.....


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Hehehe
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from that 'indefinable' something that sets my teeth on edge, his rather slimy reference to womens 'bangers'. His asking a fella tonight if he'd 'give her one' right in front of the woman in question like a 13 yr old schoolboy who still struggles with socialising with others. And then sees it as some triumph that some bloke views her as worth 'giving one' is somehow 'liberating' and 'different'. Not completely objectifyinf the woman at all.....


 
So, am I supposed to be flattered by pm's from blokes on here when they offer to 'give me one' or should I be insuted that my feminist ideals have been compromised?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> So, am I supposed to be flattered by pm's from blokes on here when they offer to 'give me one' or should I be insuted that my feminist ideals have been compromised?


 
Depends on the context I would say.


----------



## madzone (Jul 22, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Depends on the context I would say.


 
It's ok if it's not on telly?


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 22, 2010)

madzone said:


> It's ok if it's not on telly?


 
Urban 75 reality tv..... ?


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 22, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> Hehehe
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from that 'indefinable' something that sets my teeth on edge, his rather slimy reference to womens 'bangers'. His asking a fella tonight if he'd 'give her one' right in front of the woman in question like a 13 yr old schoolboy who still struggles with socialising with others. And then sees it as some triumph that some bloke views her as worth 'giving one' is somehow 'liberating' and 'different'. Not completely objectifyinf the woman at all.....


 
I'd have to satisfy myself with crossing my arms, adjusting my bosom, raising my eyebrows and declaring, ''I always knew he was a wrong 'un. I never knew what you saw in him''. 

I wouldn't touch any of my friend's partners with madzone's, frankly. 

Is he claiming it's liberating or different to have men want to give you one?  It's encouraging that you've gone from feeling that men don't want to give you one to confirmation that they do.   I much prefer that there are men out there wanting to give me one than not.  And I'd much prefer it if lots and lots of men would give me one given the chance than hardly any. It would be nice to have more to choose from to give one back to.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 22, 2010)

mentalchik said:


> What i was trying to say but i'm not as clever or as articulate as you dotty !


 
You know I'd love to speak for feminism sometimes but then I read this stuff by Robin Morgan and I back away from the female leftist theorists. You've got the gender angle covered


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 22, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I'd have to satisfy myself with crossing my arms, adjusting my bosom, raising my eyebrows and declaring, ''I always knew he was a wrong 'un. I never knew what you saw in him''.
> 
> I wouldn't touch any of my friend's partners with madzone's, frankly.



I wasn't saying you should



> Is he claiming it's liberating or different to have men want to give you one?  It's encouraging that you've gone from feeling that men don't want to give you one to confirmation that they do.   I much prefer that there are men out there wanting to give me one than not.  And I'd much prefer it if lots and lots of men would give me one given the chance than hardly any. It would be nice to have more to choose from to give one back to.



We all, ion our own way, like to be liked, whether that's just liked for who we are, or desired erotically etc. But context, knowledge, situation make how that message is conveyed important and frankly very different.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 22, 2010)

Fedayn said:


> I wasn't saying you should
> 
> 
> 
> We all, ion our own way, like to be liked, whether that's just liked for who we are, or desired erotically etc. But context, knowledge, situation make how that message is conveyed important and frankly very different.



But here's the thing.  You find Gok creepy.  Others don't.  They might find someone else creepy and you don't.   I could get exactly the same comment from two different people and find it creepy from one and delightful from another.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 22, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> But here's the thing.  You find Gok creepy.  Others don't.  They might find someone else creepy and you don't.   I could get exactly the same comment from two different people and find it creepy from one and delightful from another.


 
Aye, I accept others don't, this thread is evidence of that.


----------

