# My visit to Ingeus



## DexterTCN (Mar 25, 2013)

My visit to Ingeus (the people who try to help you get a job).

I got a call from my Ingeus advisor on Friday - I'd to come in Monday for an interview.   What for?   Poundland or Poundworld or something, he said...but it'd be alright, Amy from Ingeus was dealing with it so I'd be fine.

I'd be fine.

So it was at 13:20, I arrive at 13:15 and sign the visitor's book, tell the receptionist why I'm there and grab a seat.....the woman comes for me at 13:55 and asks me to go into the office with her.  I ask why she's so late, she says she didn't know I was there, I pointed out I'd signed and timed the vistor's book.

In the office she asks me what experience I have for this position...well, when I come home from shopping I open my cupboards and put things away properly...so I can stack shelves.   I don't have any retail supervisory experience so the positions for supervisors...which I doubt even exist...are not applicable.   No-one looking for a supervisor is going to come here and do interviews, are they.

What do I know about Pound(whateveritis)?  Hmmm...well I know these shops open up in recessions then disappear when things get better.   She says they actually do have some quality items.    I laugh.  

Really?   Batteries that last 1/4 the time, crap watered down cleaning products?   Cheap plastic rubbish that won't last a month?

No...there's no quality there, in fact the stuff is so shoddy charging a pound for it is actually overcharging people for cheap tat.

She tells me the owner actually lives in England and owns the whole company.  I counter by saying he's probably Chinese and none of the money will stay in the country.

She looks a bit annoyed, to be honest, unsure where to go...like she's lost her bearings a little.  I assume my open-ness has taken her back a bit.

I take the lead.   What's the wage for anyone lucky enough to be taken on full time, I ask.

Minimum wage, she says.   I scoff loudly.  See!  I say.  They fucking live off the poor but make sure to keep their workers poor at the same time, a disgrace.

It can't all be stocking shelves, surely, I ask.

Actually, she tells me, stonily, the job is putting up the shelves before the store officially opens.

Hah!   So they bring in joiners to do the main work then get the unemployed to put up the shelves for free so they don't have to pay the skilled labour his £20 an hour for it.   Unbelievable, I opine, shaking my head.  I detest companies like this.

It is frosty in here, there is a chill in the air.

Amy, don;t get me wro...I start to speak.....my name is not Amy, she cuts in.

Slightly confused, I look at the name-badge pinned to her blouse.

Maria
Store Manager.


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## DexterTCN (Mar 25, 2013)

Could a mod put this in Education & Employment for me?  Don't know if it should be in here, thanks.


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## salem (Mar 25, 2013)

Did you get the job?


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## DexterTCN (Mar 25, 2013)

salem said:


> Did you get the job?




No, they haven't gotten back to me yet but prospects aren;t good.


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## stuff_it (Mar 25, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> No, they haven't gotten back to me yet but prospects aren;t good.


As an agency last year said, you just don't seem desperate enough - feel free to come back when you are. With all the complications that brings.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 25, 2013)

or 

take yer pick.....


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## stuff_it (Mar 25, 2013)

StoneRoad said:


> or
> 
> take yer pick.....


TBh I had a uni place, and they were right - I could get by, why should I take a place from someone who was looking at workfare that was in a bad enough position to make their job look a good option? 

Remember this is one of the hardest areas in the country to get a job - Nottingham.


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

DexterTCN oh no  

All your points are right though. The store shouldn't get the shelves assembled by non-trade staff. I'm sure their insurers would love to hear that shelves that could potentially collapse if not correctly installed will be holding up the stock. That's not a liability issue waiting to happen _at all. _Still, never mind, I'm sure you'll do better at the next one.

Did you see anyone at Ingeus at all, other than Maria?


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## geminisnake (Mar 25, 2013)

I hope you don't get sanctioned for this!! Made me lol though


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## DexterTCN (Mar 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> DexterTCN oh no
> 
> All your points are right though. The store shouldn't get the shelves assembled by non-trade staff. I'm sure their insurers would love to hear that shelves that could potentially collapse if not correctly installed will be holding up the stock. That's not a liability issue waiting to happen _at all. _Still, never mind, I'm sure you'll do better at the next one.
> 
> Did you see anyone at Ingeus at all, other than Maria?


I saw my advisor afterwards....I said something like

"That wasn't Amy."  and shrugged.   

I gave him a short recap...explaining that it was actually all his fault.


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## DexterTCN (Mar 28, 2013)

Very weird.  Went back yesterday to check if there was going to be any fall-out.   My advisor said that Maria's feed-back was that I had been crying and talking about my daughter.   I guess she must have mixed me up with someone else....just like I had originally.


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## equationgirl (Mar 28, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Very weird. Went back yesterday to check if there was going to be any fall-out. My advisor said that Maria's feed-back was that I had been crying and talking about my daughter. I guess she must have mixed me up with someone else....just like I had originally.


Just as well really, hopefully no fall-out on you


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## dlx1 (Apr 11, 2013)

_Bump oldish_. I have dealing with Ingeus advisors always late for appointment or forget they meant to see you on date & time. With me they make out it my fourt I got the wrong day. Now I keep all appointment cards.

Money for old rope some are on 22k and bloody lucky to get that for what they do.
Their mental health advisors are not mush help ether.

Good luck getting away from them DexterTCN


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## fakemini (Jul 3, 2013)

I have to had a note here I'm afraid. Yes Ingeus staff are on good money and considering there are no pre requisites, qualifications for working there being on £24k plus is pretty good going but what I will say is they take so much crap its untrue. Their customers or clients as they are called treat them like dirt and talk to them like dirt and the management treat them bad. If they don't hit their targets they are up for disciplinary and targets are getting you guys into work! My sister works in one of the offices and the amount of people off with stress is unbelievable. They also have to report to the jobcentre and they make life difficult. The jobcentre staff don't get as much money but far less hassle. I know which one I would prefer to work in.


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## DexterTCN (Jul 3, 2013)

fake, when I was talking to the woman...who I thought was an Ingeus employee...I was not aggressive or in her face, I was open and honest.   Ingeus workers are like anyone else...some good, some bad.  I don't have any problem with them.


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 6, 2013)

fakemini said:


> I have to had a note here I'm afraid. Yes Ingeus staff are on good money and considering there are no pre requisites, qualifications for working there being on £24k plus is pretty good going but what I will say is they take so much crap its untrue. Their customers or clients as they are called treat them like dirt and talk to them like dirt and the management treat them bad. If they don't hit their targets they are up for disciplinary and targets are getting you guys into work! My sister works in one of the offices and the amount of people off with stress is unbelievable. They also have to report to the jobcentre and they make life difficult. The jobcentre staff don't get as much money but far less hassle. I know which one I would prefer to work in.


 
Who'd you rather be unempolyed with though?


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## DexterTCN (Oct 18, 2013)

What were your complaints?


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## Corax (Oct 18, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Batteries that last 1/4 the time, crap watered down cleaning products?   Cheap plastic rubbish that won't last a month?


They do a pack of 3 x Scampi Fries and 3 x Bacon Fries for a quid as well though.


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## DexterTCN (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> denying cost for interview travel and many, many more


They were always very good at expenses for me.

I ripped them off mercilessly.


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## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

they gave me vouchers for a back to work clothes grant thing a few years back. i had to go to peacocks, where nothing fitted. they were fairly useless in terms of supporting me going back as well. lots and lots of going through the 'if you were working you'd be £x better off' calculator though. every time. including when i was homeless (they helpfully pointed out that i'd have loads of spare cash if i got a job and wasn't paying rent anywhere. the fact i wasn't well enough to work didn't seem to be a barrier).


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## DexterTCN (Oct 19, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> they gave me vouchers for a back to work clothes grant thing. i had to go to peacocks, where nothing fitted.


I got Asda ones for trousers and a shirt I claimed I needed.  Bought food and cider.


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## Maurice Picarda (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> Can you read my post with proper attention!!!! I am looking for solicitor to sue Ingeus, any suggestions?



It sounds more urgent to sue the Urban75 site for failing to provide you with accurate and immediate referrals to legal advice.


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## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> Ingeus has a contract with DWP to provide help and support for unemployed people.
> Condition of this contract is to have complaining procedure.
> Ingeus wrote to me that they not going to deal with any of my complaint
> They not replying on my complains simply ignoring them despite contractual duty to have and follow 4 stages procedure.
> ...


try your local law centre.


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## stuff_it (Oct 19, 2013)

Allegedly Igneus in Nottingham have had people clearing asbestos with not only no safety equipment but not even safety boots. The person who told me isn't the sharpest tool in the box but is generally sound and said they felt unable to report it because where they were doing the work is a community art space that took a lot of effort to get in the first place.


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## geminisnake (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> Law Centres are not dealing with such problems it is a civil matter, there is any volunteer solicitor who would like to help?


Without some vague idea of where you are in the country it is difficult to advise. No point me potentially suggesting a Scottish lawyer if you're in England/Wales. Try asking your local CAB. Or if you have been in touch with a law centre get back to them and ask if they have any suggestions.


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## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

represent yourself?


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## equationgirl (Oct 19, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Allegedly Igneus in Nottingham have had people clearing asbestos with not only no safety equipment but not even safety boots. The person who told me isn't the sharpest tool in the box but is generally sound and said they felt unable to report it because where they were doing the work is a community art space that took a lot of effort to get in the first place.


If that is true contact the HSE. That is unacceptable,


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> If that is true contact the HSE. That is unacceptable,


 
Absolutely.  I think it would also almost certainly result in the company being prosecuted if asbestos was involved, given the obvious risks.  HSE have quite wide investigatory powers I recall, so a tip off might work when you're talking about asbestos.

ETA - this is the HSE page for reporting concerns about the workplace.

https://extranet.hse.gov.uk/lfserver/external/comp1


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## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> if you know anyone who would like to represent me please let me know


i don't. if you're reluctant to ask law centres for advice, i'd suggest representing yourself.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> Ingeus has a contract with DWP to provide help and support for unemployed people.
> Condition of this contract is to have complaining procedure.
> Ingeus wrote to me that they not going to deal with any of my complaint
> They not replying on my complains simply ignoring them despite contractual duty to have and follow 4 stages procedure.
> ...


 
You may have already done this, but if not you could complain to the DWP - if the contractor has a duty to deal with complaints, and are not doing so, the DWP needs to know.  They could instruct the company to follow this contractual requirement you mention.


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> Yes I complained to DWP , I was not satisfy with the reply , I requested for next stage but they just ignored me - not responded. Law Society is not dealing with such problems but I believe it must be someone who do and who care, do you  know anyone who care?



I have no personal recommendations I can make.

A quick search for pro bono solicitors came up with LawWorks which may be worth a look.

You may also want to think about writing to your MP (the usefulness of MPs does vary) if a government department is failing to follow its own procedures.

Boycott Workfare may not be in a position to take up individual cases, but are gathering info on crappy workfare contractors.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 19, 2013)

alonson said:


> Yes I complained to DWP , I was not satisfy with the reply , I requested for next stage but they just ignored me - not responded. Law Society is not dealing with such problems but I believe it must be someone who do and who care, do you  know anyone who care?


 
Well if DWP have responded to your complaint, but you are not content with the response and there are still escalation routes open to you under their complaints procedure, write to them again (by tracked delivery if possible, so you can prove they received it).  If you don't get a response, then you could contact your MP, and look at making a complaint to the Parliamentary and Health Ombudsman if need be.  I'd suggest looking at the DWP complaints procedure to see exactly where you stand, and also look at the Parly Ombudsman website too.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> You may have already done this, but if not you could complain to the DWP - if the contractor has a duty to deal with complaints, and are not doing so, the DWP needs to know.  They could instruct the company to follow this contractual requirement you mention.


you disabled my previous account, I hope you are not paid by Ingeus.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> you disabled my previous account, I hope you are not paid by Ingeus.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

In London is almost impassible send anything to Ombudsman through MP simply because MP does not FORWARD complains to Ombudsman and you may know that MP does not have any consequences if he fail to forward complain to Ombudsman so many complains are "stuck" in MPs office forever. It is typical situation for 3rd world country - manipulation of  actual number of complaints by simply "keeping them" in MP office - I repeat, it is typical situation for 3rd world country . Also Ombudsman "examine" case for one year and their judgement is always highly controversial as I have impression they role is to protect interest of  higher class rather than make honest judgement.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> In London is almost impassible send anything to Ombudsman through MP simply because MP does not FORWARD complains to Ombudsman and you may know that MP does not have any consequences if he fail to forward complain to Ombudsman so many complains are "stuck" in MPs office forever. It is typical situation for 3rd world country - manipulation of  actual number of complaints by simply "keeping them" in MP office - I repeat, it is typical situation for 3rd world country . Also Ombudsman "examine" case for one year and their judgement is always highly controversial as I have impression they role is to protect interest of  higher class rather than make honest judgement.


 
Well, the PHSO reports I've read have often been highly critical of public authorities for their handling of the cases in question, so not exactly biased in favour of the establishment.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Well, the PHSO reports I've read have often been highly critical of public authorities for their handling of the cases in question, so not exactly biased in favour of the establishment.


Well fact than ordinary citizen cannot send complain to Ombudsman because MP is keeping complain forever only shows how primitive system is. Report can be critical but who cares? I am calling for referendum to change this primitive law and allow ordinary citizen send complaint to Ombudsman without MP mediation (or impose £20K default fine on MP if he fail to do so within 30 days) , would you like to join to gather signatures for organizing referendum? We are not in 3rd world , are we?


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Well fact than ordinary citizen cannot send complain to Ombudsman because MP is keeping complain forever only shows how primitive system is. Report can be critical but who cares? I am calling for referendum to change this primitive law and allow ordinary citizen send complaint to Ombudsman without MP mediation (or impose £20K default fine on MP if he fail to do so within 30 days) , would you like to join to gather signatures for organizing referendum? We are not in 3rd world , are we?


Also in this referendum we can ask citizens if they want to abolish fees from Employment Tribunal cases as in whole Europe Employments Tribunals are free of any charges.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Well fact than ordinary citizen cannot send complain to Ombudsman because MP is keeping complain forever only shows how primitive system is. Report can be critical but who cares? I am calling for referendum to change this primitive law and allow ordinary citizen send complaint to Ombudsman without MP mediation (or impose £20K default fine on MP if he fail to do so within 30 days) , would you like to join to gather signatures for organizing referendum? We are not in 3rd world , are we?


 
I doubt you would have much luck in calling for a referendum to be honest, as it just isn't the sort of pressing national issue that warrants one.  But you could start an e-petition on the government website (either the No. 10 site, or the Cabinet Office - can't recall).

Although it is a legal requirement for complaints to be routed via your MP, I suspect this is in part designed to filter out vexatious and meritless complaints with the MP acting as a gatekeeper.  It is certainly true the public bodies receive large numbers of vexatious and meritless complaints, and if the ombudsman was accessible to the public without going through an MP, their caseload would jump substantially, with the associated additional costs that would entail.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I doubt you would have much luck in calling for a referendum to be honest, as it just isn't the sort of pressing national issue that warrants one.  But you could start an e-petition on the government website (either the No. 10 site, or the Cabinet Office - can't recall).
> 
> Although it is a legal requirement for complaints to be routed via your MP, I suspect this is in part designed to filter out vexatious and meritless complaints with the MP acting as a gatekeeper.  It is certainly true the public bodies receive large numbers of vexatious and meritless complaints, and if the ombudsman was accessible to the public without going through an MP, their caseload would jump substantially, with the associated additional costs that would entail.


Unfortunately true /  democracy must cost (but for sure much less than tax evasion) also if MP is thinking that complaint is vexatious should informs citizen about it (within 30 days) and also give WRITTEN reason why he thinks that complain is vexatious. By not doing so he is preserve 3rd world standards. If there is many complains it may suggest that quality of law is LOW therefore it is fundamental question about intellectual level of law creators.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Unfortunately true /  democracy must cost (but for sure much less than tax evasion) also if MP is thinking that complaint is vexatious should informs citizen about it (within 30 days) and also give WRITTEN reason why he thinks that complain is vexatious. By not doing so he is preserve 3rd world standards. If there is many complains it may suggest that quality of law is LOW therefore it is fundamental question about intellectual level of law creators.


Cost of corruption and poor law is much higher than you think.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Cost of corruption and poor law is much higher than you think.


 
Sources please?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Unfortunately true /  democracy must cost (but for sure much less than tax evasion) also if MP is thinking that complaint is vexatious should informs citizen about it (within 30 days) and also give WRITTEN reason why he thinks that complain is vexatious. By not doing so he is preserve 3rd world standards. If there is many complains it may suggest that quality of law is LOW therefore it is fundamental question about intellectual level of law creators.


 
The problem you have with this is that you would have to convince Parliament as a whole to accept restrictions on what it can do in this area, which is fundamentally an administrative one.  I doubt that would be achievable to be frank. 

I don't quite get your point about many complaints suggesting the quality of the law is low, and therefore raising questions of the intellectual level of the law creators.  A law can be a perfectly good law, but also have many complaints resulting from it - the fact that a law enables people to make complaints can actually be seen as a good thing, as it enshrines their rights in legislation for their voice to be heard.  So that would suggest a suitable level of intellectual ability in respect of the drafters of the legislation.  A law can of course also be a bad law, or a badly-written law, and result in many complaints - but you can't make sweeping statements like you have above disparaging the entire process.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Sources please?


Work Programme? Ingesu Minimum Delivery Standard?  tax evasion here: http://gyazo.com/c4275e24787a8693d29ae239c0d28bdc


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> The problem you have with this is that you would have to convince Parliament as a whole to accept restrictions on what it can do in this area, which is fundamentally an administrative one.  I doubt that would be achievable to be frank.
> 
> I don't quite get your point about many complaints suggesting the quality of the law is low, and therefore raising questions of the intellectual level of the law creators.  A law can be a perfectly good law, but also have many complaints resulting from it - the fact that a law enables people to make complaints can actually be seen as a good thing, as it enshrines their rights in legislation for their voice to be heard.  So that would suggest a suitable level of intellectual ability in respect of the drafters of the legislation.  A law can of course also be a bad law, or a badly-written law, and result in many complaints - but you can't make sweeping statements like you have above disparaging the entire process.


Well if complaints are not responded (like Ingeus or DWP) and there is not legal means (accessible for unemployed person, please do not tell me about crap CAB)  to make this people responsive therefore fundamental question about quality of law creators is legitimate also if MPs are keeping (on large scale) complaints to Ombudsman it is clearly 3rd world standard and rise legitimate question about quality of law creators.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

Apparently this website http://fullfact.org/articles/tax_dodging_benefit_grabbing_graph-29041 was taken down http://gyazo.com/c4275e24787a8693d29ae239c0d28bdc probably by hackers hahahahahahhaha.............


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Well if complaints are not responded (like Ingeus or DWP) and there is not legal means (accessible for unemployed person, please do not tell me about crap CAB)  to make this people responsive therefore fundamental question about quality of law creators is legitimate also if MPs are keeping (on large scale) complaints to Ombudsman it is clearly 3rd world standard and rise legitimate question about quality of law creators.


 
Do you have any sources for the claim that MPs are keeping complaints to the Ombudsman on a large scale?  I presume you mean keeping complaints back, or blocking them from actually being referred to the Ombudsman.

And as for the comment about 3rd world standards - in the real 3rd world I very much doubt there would be Ombudsman.  Care to name any Ombudsman in, say, Somalia?  I'd be surprised if they exist.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Do you have any sources for the claim that MPs are keeping complaints to the Ombudsman on a large scale?  I presume you mean keeping complaints back, or blocking them from actually being referred to the Ombudsman.
> 
> And as for the comment about 3rd world standards - in the real 3rd world I very much doubt there would be Ombudsman.  Care to name any Ombudsman in, say, Somalia?  I'd be surprised if they exist.


Well I was on the meeting were some organization (charity.....) requested feedback how Ombudsman is doing. 12 people. Apparently everyone was saying that his/ her complaint was kept longer than 9 months, so I can imagine how many more people is in very similar position.
It does not matter is 3rd world has or not Ombudsman (probably not) , it is matter how Ombudsman in UK is working in comparison to French, German, Czech, Swedish or Polish - that's is the European standard and this standard I am expecting to have in EU.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 20, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Well I was on the meeting were some organization (charity.....) requested feedback how Ombudsman is doing. 12 people. Apparently everyone was saying that his/ her complaint was kept longer than 9 months, so I can imagine how many more people is in very similar position.
> It does not matter is 3rd world has or not Ombudsman (probably not) , it is matter how Ombudsman in UK is working in comparison to French, German, Czech, Swedish or Polish - that's is the European standard and this standard I am expecting to have in EU.


 
But that isn't evidence that MPs are holding back complaints as you said above, and appears to imply that this anecdotal evidence is about how long complaints took to be resolved once they were lodged with the Ombudsman.

Nine months is not actually unreasonable to deal with a complaint of the type that is referred to the Ombudsman.  The complaints Ombudsman and regulators deal with are often complex, and therefore take time to investigate properly, consider all the evidence, and reach a decision.  There isn't any other way unfortunately, unless you want rushed and erroneous decisions.

Anyway, I've got to get ready to do other stuff, so I'll return to this later today.


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## alonsoss (Oct 20, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> But that isn't evidence that MPs are holding back complaints as you said above, and appears to imply that this anecdotal evidence is about how long complaints took to be resolved once they were lodged with the Ombudsman.
> 
> Nine months is not actually unreasonable to deal with a complaint of the type that is referred to the Ombudsman.  The complaints Ombudsman and regulators deal with are often complex, and therefore take time to investigate properly, consider all the evidence, and reach a decision.  There isn't any other way unfortunately, unless you want rushed and erroneous decisions.
> 
> Anyway, I've got to get ready to do other stuff, so I'll return to this later today.


My complaints were never resolved but just forget and ignored, I presume there is much more such examples. MP should have clear deadline for forwarding complaint to Ombudsman or should have fine is is failing to do so. Even Ombudsman office confirmed that is is a problem that MPs are keeping complains. Role of MP is to forward not to analyse complaint. This system is idiotic, nowhere in Europe is similar. In majority countries in Europe citizen can complain direct to ombudsman and I have never heard that thus European Ombudsman are overloaded in any way. Unfortunately there is a other way to change system for European instead of 3rd world style.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

Also "Nine months is not actually unreasonable to deal with a complaint" - words : "deal" and "forward" have totally different meaning. Forwarding complain to Ombudsman for longer than 9 months is out of any standards. Would be great if my text will be read with attention and basic understanding. In EU average time for response from Ombudsman is 6 months , if you will not get it you can go to Tribunal.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Also "Nine months is not actually unreasonable to deal with a complaint" - words : "deal" and "forward" have totally different meaning. Forwarding complain to Ombudsman for longer than 9 months is out of any standards. *Would be great if my text will be read with attention and basic understanding*. In EU average time for response from Ombudsman is 6 months , if you will not get it you can go to Tribunal.


 
I said earlier that your statements are just anecdotal, and I asked for sources to back them up.  So far you have failed to do so, and saying that the Ombudsman's office said that it is a problem is not proper evidence - for all I know you could have made this up. 

And as for your statement I've highlighted in bold above, if that is aimed at me, I'd suggest you stop being such a pompous arse if you want anyone on here to help you with advice.


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## Bob_the_lost (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Also "Nine months is not actually unreasonable to deal with a complaint" - words : "deal" and "forward" have totally different meaning. Forwarding complain to Ombudsman for longer than 9 months is out of any standards. Would be great if my text will be read with attention and basic understanding. In EU average time for response from Ombudsman is 6 months , if you will not get it you can go to Tribunal.


Your written English is generally understandable but grammatically poor, I don't want to be a Grammar snob as my written work isn't perfect either but yours could do with some work. As such you should be very careful making complaints about other peoples' reading comprehension as it can be implied that your poor written work is responsible for any lack of understanding. This might also affect the way your letters to your MP are interpreted. You have to phrase things carefully or it becomes far too easy to write them off as the work of a crank/time waster.

You could put in a FOI request to the ombudsman to find the average response time. That would probably be very useful if you do wish to start an e-petition.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> <snip>
> 
> You could put in a FOI request to the ombudsman to find the average response time. That would probably be very useful if you do wish to start an e-petition.


 
Here are the FOI pages of the PHSO:

http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/about-us/being-open-and-transparent

Check the site to see if they publish any information on average response times (it may be in their disclosure log, or in their annual reports).  It is important to check this before submitting an FOI request as if the information you are seeking is readily accessible to you already, they will refuse your request under s21 of the FOIA.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I said earlier that your statements are just anecdotal, and I asked for sources to back them up.  So far you have failed to do so, and saying that the Ombudsman's office said that it is a problem is not proper evidence - for all I know you could have made this up.
> 
> And as for your statement I've highlighted in bold above, if that is aimed at me, I'd suggest you stop being such a pompous arse if you want anyone on here to help you with advice.


Different between manipulation and poor understanding of the content is very narrow and it is import if the text will be read with proper attention. So it is important distinguish sentences "dealing with complaint" from "forward the complain" (to Ombudsman in this scenario. As I said earlier at least in London it is a very serious problem. Yes Ombudsman is encouraging clients to write to their MPs to make them aware that many complains are not reaching the Ombudsman office (stuck in MP office - my is for 2 years for now - I have evidets as sent my complaint to MP office by email and email was acknowledged.) I met 12 people who had a very similar problem with their MPs and also Ombudsman confirmed fact that this is a serious problem (I have audio record of this conversation). I always advice my friends and colleagues  in the country where many people saying "my word is my bond" recoding I absolutely crucial to prove anything. I do not care about your help, do not be silly, what you called "help"???. I happy to spread the word and make people aware.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Your written English is generally understandable but grammatically poor, I don't want to be a Grammar snob as my written work isn't perfect either but yours could do with some work. As such you should be very careful making complaints about other peoples' reading comprehension as it can be implied that your poor written work is responsible for any lack of understanding. This might also affect the way your letters to your MP are interpreted. You have to phrase things carefully or it becomes far too easy to write them off as the work of a crank/time waster.
> 
> You could put in a FOI request to the ombudsman to find the average response time. That would probably be very useful if you do wish to start an e-petition.


My written English is better than spoken English of many costumer services lines (with great respect).  I have to repeat - you do not understand what I am writing. I am not complaint about Ombudsman responce  time. I am saying that many complaint send to MPs are not reaching Ombudsman office, I am also saying that there is no legal deadlines for MPs to forward such complaint to Ombudsman, I am also saying that in vast majority EU countries (if not in all) citizen can complain directly to the Ombudsman and this European standard.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Here are the FOI pages of the PHSO:
> 
> http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/about-us/being-open-and-transparent
> 
> Check the site to see if they publish any information on average response times (it may be in their disclosure log, or in their annual reports).  It is important to check this before submitting an FOI request as if the information you are seeking is readily accessible to you already, they will refuse your request under s21 of the FOIA.


You do not understand my text. I am not complaint about Ombudsman response time. I am saying that many complaint send to MPs are not reaching Ombudsman office, I am also saying that there is no legal deadlines for MPs to forward such complaint to Ombudsman, I am also saying that in vast majority EU countries (if not in all) citizen can complain directly to the Ombudsman and this European standard.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Different between manipulation and poor understanding of the content is very narrow and it is import if the text will be read with proper attention. So it is important distinguish sentences "dealing with complaint" from "forward the complain" (to Ombudsman in this scenario. As I said earlier at least in London it is a very serious problem. Yes Ombudsman is encouraging clients to write to their MPs to make them aware that many complains are not reaching the Ombudsman office (stuck in MP office - my is for 2 years for now - I have evidets as sent my complaint to MP office by email and email was acknowledged.) I met 12 people who had a very similar problem with their MPs and also Ombudsman confirmed fact that this is a serious problem (I have audio record of this conversation). I always advice my friends and colleagues  in the country where many people saying "my word is my bond" recoding I absolutely crucial to prove anything. *I do not care about your help, do not be silly, what you called "help"???.* I happy to spread the word and make people aware.


 
You really are an ignorant half-wit aren't you?


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## Schmetterling (Oct 21, 2013)

So do I understand this correctly: you want to make a complaint about the ombudsman?


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> So do I understand this correctly: you want to make a complaint about the ombudsman?


No mate I want you to write to your MP to abolish this idiotic law that majority of complains must go through MP and MPs (at least in London) are not forwarding them. I want you to write to your MP and request him for introducing (campaign for) European standrad which means each citizen CAN complain DIRECTLY do Ombudsman without mediation of MP


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> So do I understand this correctly: you want to make a complaint about the ombudsman?


I am complaining about MPs who keeping complains and not forwarding them to Ombudsman and there is no legal deadline for them to do so. So it is base on their HUMOUR rather the LAW. If the will have good humour they may forward you complain but if the humour is bad they may not forward you complain. It is a XIX century standard.


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## Schmetterling (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> No mate I want you to write to your MP to abolish this idiotic law that majority of complains must go through MP and MPs (at least in London) are not forwarding them. I want you to write to your MP and request him for introducing (campaign for) European standrad which means each citizen CAN complain DIRECTLY do Ombudsman without mediation of MP



Aaaah; so all your complaints about MPs go to the ombudsman?  You would like to raise the standrads?


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## Frankie Jack (Oct 21, 2013)

I'm not getting any of this.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> You do not understand my text. I am not complaint about Ombudsman response time. I am saying that many complaint send to MPs are not reaching Ombudsman office, I am also saying that there is no legal deadlines for MPs to forward such complaint to Ombudsman, I am also saying that in vast majority EU countries (if not in all) citizen can complain directly to the Ombudsman and this European standard.


 
Again, you are not reading things properly.  My post that you quoted was about FOI requests - it was not about what MPs may or may not do, but simply the option of making an FOI request to the ombudsman.  Completely separate to the MP issue.

Frankly, given your recent responses on this thread where I and others have been trying to help you, including trying to understand the issue you are dealing with by asking for more detail, I'm not in the least bit surprised that your MP might have ignored your complaint. 

If this is the way you behave, by having a go at those trying to help you, you certainly ask for any problems you encounter as people have a limit to their patience.

You need to understand that you have to be nice to people if you want them on your side, and people on this site will often go out of their way to be helpful as there are lots of decent knowledgeable posters here.  It really won't help you if you are rude I'm afraid.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> No mate I want you to write to your MP to abolish this idiotic law that majority of complains must go through MP and MPs (at least in London) are not forwarding them. I want you to write to your MP and request him for introducing (campaign for) European standrad which means each citizen CAN complain DIRECTLY do Ombudsman without mediation of MP


 
If you want others to write to their MPs about this, you need to provide a much more cogent argument as to why they should do so.  After all, you have been complaining about how your case has been handled - but this obviously doesn't affect anyone else at all so why would they go out of their way to write to their MP on something that is a non-issue for them?


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> You really are an ignorant half-wit aren't you?


The only "help" which you may provided is to make aware your colleges and you MP that complaining to the Ombudsman should be direct not with MP mediation of citizen should decide what is better for him -  complaining directly or with MP "help". Thanks


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

If you don't mind alonsoss - if you want us to write to our MPs to change the law on complaints to the Ombudsman, then it would be helpful if you could let us know which laws you are campaigning to change.  I find it is always helpful to be able to clearly point out to the MP which laws are causing this injustice. 

This is because MPs won't pay much attention to a generic approach, and won't have time or the inclination to research which laws are applicable, so a more precise approach is what is needed here.

Ideally, you could provide a template letter for us to use, so we can model our approach to our MPs on this template.  This would be very helpful to ensure your campaign has a consistent approach.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> The only "help" which you may provided is to make aware your colleges and you MP that complaining to the Ombudsman should be direct not with MP mediation of citizen should decide what is better for him -  complaining directly or with MP "help". Thanks


 
I'm awfully sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  I've read it several times, and taken into account your writing style in previous posts, but I still can't understand what you are trying to say.

I'd be grateful if you could clarify it.  Thanks.


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## Schmetterling (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> If you don't mind alonsoss - if you want us to write to our MPs to change the law on complaints to the Ombudsman, then it would be helpful if you could let us know which laws you are campaigning to change.  I find it is always helpful to be able to clearly point out to the MP which laws are causing this injustice.
> 
> This is because MPs won't pay much attention to a generic approach, and won't have time or the inclination to research which laws are applicable, so a more precise approach is what is needed here.
> 
> Ideally, you could provide a template letter for us to use, so we can model our approach to our MPs on this template.  This would be very helpful to ensure your campaign has a consistent approach.



alonsoss 
I don't get it?  Why is the MP  complaining about you?  I thought she was complaining about the ombudsman.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Again, you are not reading things properly.  My post that you quoted was about FOI requests - it was not about what MPs may or may not do, but simply the option of making an FOI request to the ombudsman.  Completely separate to the MP issue.
> 
> Frankly, given your recent responses on this thread where I and others have been trying to help you, including trying to understand the issue you are dealing with by asking for more detail, I'm not in the least bit surprised that your MP might have ignored your complaint.
> 
> ...


I prefer if people can understand the text and respond with accuracy rather than be "nice" and receive reply not connected to the topic. I do not need make FOI request because I am not interested to know response time from Ombudsman. My 3 complains did not reach Ombudsman office and you can find them in my MP office for more than 2 years and I met meny people in the same position. If you would like to help anyone first you must understand the problem (text, content, topic). Help should useful not useless. Thanks


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> I prefer if people can understand the text and respond with accuracy rather than be "nice" and receive reply not connected to the topic. I do not need make FOI request because I am not interested to know response time from Ombudsman. My 3 complains did not reach Ombudsman office and you can find them in my MP office for more than 2 years and I met meny people in the same position. If you would like to help anyone first you must understand the problem (text, content, topic). Help should useful not useless. Thanks


Also there is not to many "means" to help if MP is not forwarding your complain to Ombudsman. MP is above the LAW may do what he wants and this is not civilize standard. So if you would like to help campaign for changing idiotic law which forces citizen to use MP mediation to complain to Ombudsman. Of course their is a reason behind such law - each government (elite) can say that amount of complains is big or average - without MP mediation (who keep citizens complains) amount of cases will jump as legislation in many areas is VERY very poor.


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## Schmetterling (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> I prefer if people can understand the text and respond with accuracy rather than be "nice" and receive reply not connected to the topic. I do not need make FOI request because I am not interested to know response time from Ombudsman. My 3 complains did not reach Ombudsman office and you can find them in my MP office for more than 2 years and I met meny people in the same position. If you would like to help anyone first you must understand the problem (text, content, topic). Help should useful not useless. Thanks



Aaah; you should write to the MP, the Ombudsman and FOI people about the complaint the woman (the MP) made about you.  I always find it best to cc them all in each correspondence.  They also like it if you don't print on only one side of the paper as they are all enviroment friends.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> I prefer if people can understand the text and respond with accuracy rather than be "nice" and receive reply not connected to the topic. I do not need make FOI request because I am not interested to know response time from Ombudsman. My 3 complains did not reach Ombudsman office and you can find them in my MP office for more than 2 years and I met meny people in the same position. If you would like to help anyone first you must understand the problem (text, content, topic). Help should useful not useless. Thanks


 
I am terribly sorry if I have misunderstood your posts - I will endeavour to enrol in an English class forthwith! 

I've reread your posts, and ensured I paid more attention to detail this time, and I now understand what you are getting at.  Your MP is complaining to the Ombudsman about you, and you are complaining that the MP is sitting on their complaint and not referring it to the Ombudsman.

Now we've got that clear, it would help if you could tell us the name of your MP so we can include that in our letters to our MPs when we complain about this injustice.  Thanks.


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## Schmetterling (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I am terribly sorry if I have misunderstood your posts - I will endeavour to enrol in an English class forthwith!
> 
> I've reread your posts, and ensured I paid more attention to detail this time, and I now understand what you are getting at.  Your MP is complaining to the Ombudsman about you, and you are complaining that the MP is sitting on their complaint and not referring it to the Ombudsman.
> 
> Now we've got that clear, it would help if you could tell us the name of your MP so we can include that in our letters to our MPs when we complain about this injustice.  Thanks.



Oooh; I missed that.  The MP (a woman?) is not passing on her own complaint about herself to the ombudsman.

I don't know; I am feeling a bit stupid.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Also there is not to many "means" to help if MP is not forwarding your complain to Ombudsman. MP is above the LAW may do what he wants and this is not civilize standard. So if you would like to help campaign for changing idiotic law which forces citizen to use MP mediation to complain to Ombudsman. Of course their is a reason behind such law - each government (elite) can say that amount of complains is big or average - without MP mediation (who keep citizens complains) amount of cases will jump as legislation in many areas is VERY very poor.


Good example? Since 1998 when minimum wage act was introduced in whole UK was 10 (ten) cases in Tribunal for not paying minim wage. Only on my street you can find 10 restaurants where employees are paid £3. £4 p/h - nobody cares. This is just very average example but I repeat legislation standards are poor an low as per  level of law creators.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> Aaah; you should write to the MP, the Ombudsman and FOI people about the complaint the woman (the MP) made about you.  I always find it best to cc them all in each correspondence.  They also like it if you don't print on only one side of the paper as they are all enviroment friends.


 
Good advice.  CC-ing people into complaints does help in getting things moving, as the more people who are aware of the issue, the more pressure there is on the MP sitting on their complaint to the Ombudsman about you to act.  It may also be helpful to cc the relevant party into this, and ideally into their local party if you are able to find the contact details online.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> Oooh; I missed that.  The MP (a woman?) is not passing on her own complaint about herself to the ombudsman.
> 
> I don't know; I am feeling a bit stupid.


 
Not to worry - this is a complex situation and I think we are still teasing out the facts of the case so we can help.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I am terribly sorry if I have misunderstood your posts - I will endeavour to enrol in an English class forthwith!
> 
> I've reread your posts, and ensured I paid more attention to detail this time, and I now understand what you are getting at.  Your MP is complaining to the Ombudsman about you, and you are complaining that the MP is sitting on their complaint and not referring it to the Ombudsman.
> 
> Now we've got that clear, it would help if you could tell us the name of your MP so we can include that in our letters to our MPs when we complain about this injustice.  Thanks.


hahaah very funny - you are native speaker? woow I am impressed. My complains were never sent by my MP to Ombudsman, there is no legal means to encourage MP to FORWARD my complain to Ombudsman. Anyway I do not believe in sending letters and depends on somebody humour (MP in this scenario) Law should be clear, everyone should be allowed to complain to Ombudsman without MP mediation. EU gave you one good tool to change this:  Referendum


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Not to worry - this is a complex situation and I think we are still teasing out the facts of the case so we can help.


Situation is extremely simply, MPs are not FORWARDING citizen complains to Ombudsman. There is no legal means to encourage MP to forward complaint to Ombudsman - conclusion : law is poor. Everyone should be allowed to complain to Ombudsman without MP mediation. EU gave you one good tool  to change this: Referendum


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## Bob_the_lost (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> My written English is better than spoken English of many costumer services lines (with great respect).  I have to repeat - you do not understand what I am writing. <snip>


It may be better than some but it's not great. This might contribute to your problems, both here and at your MP's office.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> hahaah very funny - you are native speaker? woow I am impressed. My complains were never sent by my MP to Ombudsman, there is no legal means to encourage MP to FORWARD my complain to Ombudsman. Anyway I do not believe in sending letters and depends on somebody humour (MP in this scenario) Law should be clear, everyone should be allowed to complain to Ombudsman without MP mediation. EU gave you one good tool to change this:  Referendum


 
I'm not a native speaker of English, no.  My mother tongue is Gaelic, and I learnt English about two years ago.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I'm not a native speaker of English, no.  My mother tongue is Gaelic, and I learnt English about two years ago.


So I am even more impressed. BTW I am long time unemployed as Working Programme is totally crap (at least in London as you know) there are any vacancies in Scotland? ;-)


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> So I am even more impressed. BTW I am long time unemployed as Working Programme is totally crap (at least in London as you know) there are any vacancies in Scotland? ;-)


I am asking because Boris Johnson said recently that : British business cannot find employees within EU (so EU borders should be opened for foreign work force to help British business) so here I am. Ready to help!


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> So I am even more impressed. BTW I am long time unemployed as Working Programme is totally crap (at least in London as you know) there are any vacancies in Scotland? ;-)


 
I live in England nowadays.  I moved here from the Isle of Lewis three years ago with my family, as there are very few opportunities up there, being so remote.  It took us a year to learn English, but thankfully I had my family around me so at least we could talk to each other!  I found that English people were quite understanding, and helped us along with the local college where we did an intensive course to learn English in about 9 months.  There are a lot of similarities between Gaelic and English, so it wasn't as difficult as I imaged to learn - thankfully!


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I live in England nowadays.  I moved here from the Isle of Lewis three years ago with my family, as there are very few opportunities up there, being so remote.  It took us a year to learn English, but thankfully I had my family around me so at least we could talk to each other!  I found that English people were quite understanding, and helped us along with the local college where we did an intensive course to learn English in about 9 months.  There are a lot of similarities between Gaelic and English, so it wasn't as difficult as I imaged to learn - thankfully!


Great stuff. I just checked on the map - very beautiful Island. I heard that outside London is different (approach to people) also I would notice that Isle of Lewis is not foreign country only part of UK so you may have warm welcome . My surname is very foreign so I presume that is why I am rejected for so many positions which I applied during last few years.... also that is why Ingeus is so reluctant to support.


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## Schmetterling (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Great stuff. I just checked on the map - very beautiful Island. I heard that outside London is different (approach to people) also I would notice that Isle of Lewis is not foreign country only part of UK so you may have warm welcome . My surname is very foreign so I presume that is why I am rejected for so many positions which I applied during last few years.... also that is why Ingeus is so reluctant to support.




Sorry; couldn't help for a while.  I had to take my pony to the vet.  But I am back now.  

Have you started drafting a letter to the Ombusman yet?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 21, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Great stuff. I just checked on the map - very beautiful Island. I heard that outside London is different (approach to people) also I would notice that Isle of Lewis is not foreign country only part of UK so you may have warm welcome . My surname is very foreign so I presume that is why I am rejected for so many positions which I applied during last few years.... also that is why Ingeus is so reluctant to support.


 
It is a beautiful island - thanks.  I try and get back there for a week or two each year.  While the Isle of Lewis is part of the UK, it so remote (and very far from London) it often feels it isn't!

You're right that peoples' attitudes are different outside of London - people are often friendlier, and more helpful.  There is less of that in London because of the sheer number of people there - it makes people become insular.  Bound to happen in a large city though. I'm not sure what to do about the name issue you mention, apart from changing it.  It must be difficult if you face this sort of rejection on the basis of your own name - I know I'm fortunate in having a very traditional British name so no-one questions it.


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## alonsoss (Oct 21, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> It is a beautiful island - thanks.  I try and get back there for a week or two each year.  While the Isle of Lewis is part of the UK, it so remote (and very far from London) it often feels it isn't!
> 
> You're right that peoples' attitudes are different outside of London - people are often friendlier, and more helpful.  There is less of that in London because of the sheer number of people there - it makes people become insular.  Bound to happen in a large city though. I'm not sure what to do about the name issue you mention, apart from changing it.  It must be difficult if you face this sort of rejection on the basis of your own name - I know I'm fortunate in having a very traditional British name so no-one questions it.


1. I think *Multikulti (multiculturalism)* failed totally. 2. Boris Johnson is wrong - in EU is 500mln citizens, even the most demanding British business can find employee here but they have to make* little* intellectual effort. 3. Some psychologists (or even portal Monster?) are saying if you change your name e.g Piotr for English Peter your chances to get a job can rise by 80%  4. I cannot change the name simply because I cannot change the accent .   I am who I am


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## DexterTCN (Oct 21, 2013)

Isn't this the wrong way round?

It's...complaint (denied)...serious complaint (denied)....Ombudsman (denied)...MP.

MPs would be idiots to position themselves between serious complaints and ombudsmen.


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## alonsoss (Oct 22, 2013)

DexterTCN said:


> Isn't this the wrong way round?
> 
> It's...complaint (denied)...serious complaint (denied)....Ombudsman (denied)...MP.
> 
> MPs would be idiots to position themselves between serious complaints and ombudsmen.


MPs do not have to care simply because there is no legal means to force them for not FORWARDING complain to Ombudsman.  Law creatora are not very clever because they not predicted very simply situation if MP do not want (because of bad weather or humour) to FORWARD complaint. Who is idiot? hmm try guess


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## alonsoss (Oct 22, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> MPs do not have to care simply because there is no legal means to force them for not FORWARDING complain to Ombudsman.  Law creatora are not very clever because they not predicted very simply situation if MP do not want (because of bad weather or humour) to FORWARD complaint. Who is idiot? hmm try guess


well, maybe common law is not very "come on" ;-) tradition is good but tradition PLUS common sense is even better ;-)


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## alonsoss (Oct 22, 2013)

Out of topic but important  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hunting-the-nightmare-bacteria/


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 22, 2013)




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## DexterTCN (Oct 22, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


>


Are you  at the possible trolliness or the bit where you was talking to himself?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 23, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> 1. I think *Multikulti (multiculturalism)* failed totally. 2. Boris Johnson is wrong - in EU is 500mln citizens, even the most demanding British business can find employee here but they have to make* little* intellectual effort. 3. Some psychologists (or even portal Monster?) are saying if you change your name e.g Piotr for English Peter your chances to get a job can rise by 80%  4. I cannot change the name simply because I cannot change the accent .   I am who I am


 
I'm not going to get into a debate about multiculturalism, or the purported failure thereof, and I prefer not to even have to think about cretinous fools like Boris Johnson if I can possibly help it. 

But I can respond to 3 & 4.

3 - if a person is called Piotr (Polish I think), then it would be fair to use Peter as an alternative, if this helped improve the chances of a job.  I'm not saying that people _should_ have to do this though - a name shouldn't make a difference in terms of getting a job, or anything else for that matter, but if the reality on the ground is that it does, then this may be a pragmatic step worth considering. 

I'm not sure what country you are from (apologies if you have said this earlier in the thread and I've missed it), but in the UK people are free to use whatever name they want, and this is legal unless the intent is to commit fraud and the like.  Lots of people who have moved to the UK over time anglicise their names for various reasons, and there is nothing instrinsically wrong with that.  I fully appreciate of course that people may prefer to retain their real name - and quite right too if that is what they want to do. 

But being discriminated against on the basis of your name is clearly wrong, and I'm sorry if you have experienced that here in the UK.

4 - I completely understand about the accent - it is part of your identity.  It is very difficult to change your accent, at least in the short term.  It is possible over time to alter it to an extent, but it is difficult to remove it completely.


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## alonsoss (Oct 23, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I'm not going to get into a debate about multiculturalism, or the purported failure thereof, and I prefer not to even have to think about cretinous fools like Boris Johnson if I can possibly help it.
> 
> But I can respond to 3 & 4.
> 
> ...



Ad3 It has a lot of to do  pragmatism but much more with racism and narrow thinking. But what is "funny" I met few Scots (white, well educated) who complained about English racism (or glass ceiling if you like) in London.  It is a science not just assumption, is scientific proven (by English/US scientists?) that changing name increase you chance by 80%.  I think everywhere people are free to use name whatever they want but also manager are choosing employee whatever he/she wants. Usually if you not match certain criteria you have little change. You can get a job if manger will "like" you - so choice has very little to do with economic preferences or choices, it is about "like" dislike". Check statistic about unemployment among white English, EE and "other". It is science mate, for sure. It is statistic behind and quite few researches. It is proven. So, choice depends on open or narrow minded managers preferences - more often narrow minded. In Norway it is 1% unemployment rate among Norwegian, 7% EE i 15% "other".....The average unemployment rate will be?


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## Pingu (Oct 23, 2013)

i started to read this and then decided my time would be best spent drawing a picture of a cat. i will send it to my MP though just in case


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 23, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Ad3 It has a lot of to do  pragmatism but much more with racism and narrow thinking. But what is "funny" I met few Scots (white, well educated) who complained about English racism (or glass ceiling if you like) in London.  It is a science not just assumption, is scientific proven (by English/US scientists?) that changing name increase you chance by 80%.  I think everywhere people are free to use name whatever they want but also manager are choosing employee whatever he/she wants. Usually if you not match certain criteria you have little change. You can get a job if manger will "like" you - so choice has very little to do with economic preferences or choices, it is about "like" dislike". Check statistic about unemployment among white English, EE and "other". It is science mate, for sure. It is statistic behind and quite few researches. It is proven. So, choice depends on open or narrow minded managers preferences - more often narrow minded. In Norway it is 1% unemployment rate among Norwegian, 7% EE i 15% "other".....The average unemployment rate will be?


 
In the UK there is evidence of racism between members of all four parts, so it isn't just English racism against Scottish people.  All sides can be equally nasty towards people who come from another part of the UK unfortunately. I'm not going to address your other points though as I don't have time.


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## Pingu (Oct 23, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> In the UK there is evidence of racism between members of all four parts, so it isn't just English racism against Scottish people.  All sides can be equally nasty towards people who come from another part of the UK unfortunately. I'm not going to address your other points though as I don't have time.




this is true. for example english people going to job interviews in Caernarfon are normally well advised to wear anti stab vests


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## alonsoss (Oct 23, 2013)

Pingu said:


> this is true. for example english people going to job interviews in Caernarfon are normally well advised to wear anti stab vests


Almost like in California...... 1851 or Somalia 2011 ;-)? Well, if legal system is poor or even shameful then yes, anti stab vests can be helpful.... ;-)


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 24, 2013)

Pingu said:


> this is true. for example english people going to job interviews in Caernarfon are normally well advised to wear anti stab vests


 
I wear one as a matter of course when I have to visit our office in Wales. 

But there certainly is a degree of racism between people of the different nations - although very difficult to quantify for obvious reasons.  There are the obvious fringe groups who are clearly absolute loons and set fire to holiday homes in Wales (for example), but these are clearly extreme xenophobes.  But like all discrimination the bulk will be insidious and difficult to detect. As has ever been thus, sadly.


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## alonsoss (Oct 24, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I wear one as a matter of course when I have to visit our office in Wales.
> 
> farmerbarleymow said: although very difficult to quantify for obvious reasons.
> 
> I am saying that: You can "quantify" on labourer market. It is to find out who (which minority) is doing what and why. And why this minority is restrained from doing something else (In talking about general situation not exceptions).


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 24, 2013)

Hi alonsoss - you can fix your post above by ensuring the [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags are just around my wording, and this will make your response appear below the quote. 

Like so:



> farmerbarleymow said...


 
"and I said..."


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Hi alonsoss - you can fix your post above by ensuring the [ quote ] and [ /quote ] tags are just around my wording, and this will make your response appear below the quote.
> 
> Like so:
> 
> ...


I said: MPs are not FORWARDING citizen complains to Ombudsman. There is no legal means to encourage MP to forward complaint to Ombudsman - conclusion : law is poor. Everyone should be allowed to complain to Ombudsman without MP mediation


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> I said: MPs are not FORWARDING citizen complains to Ombudsman. There is no legal means to encourage MP to forward complaint to Ombudsman - conclusion : law is poor. Everyone should be allowed to complain to Ombudsman without MP mediation


 
If the overall aim of your argument is that the law should be changed to permit complaints to be sent direct to the Ombudsman, rather than via an MP, you would need to campaign to change the law.  First thing would be to identify which law mandates that complaints go via an MP, and establish whether it is primary or secondary legislation.

If it is primary legislation, and Act of Parliament would be required to remove this provision.  A clause could be inserted into another, unrelated, Bill going through the House, but you would of course require support from MPs to get this to happen.  Then it would be subject to the usual debate and votes before it could become law.  But given we are heading closer to the next General Election, Parliamentary time will be very limited as the Government will be trying to pass the Bills that have been highlighted in the Queen's Speech.  This might mean you stand no chance of the law being changed.

If it is secondary legislation (i.e. a SI or Statutory Instrument) this would be slightly easier to amend.  This is because SIs are in effect passed by the relevant Minister, and the SI is placed in the House of Commons.  From my understanding, these are very rarely debated.  So if it is in an SI you would have to identify the Government Department which owned the issue, and lobby them for change.


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> If the overall aim of your argument is that the law should be changed to permit complaints to be sent direct to the Ombudsman, rather than via an MP, you would need to campaign to change the law.  First thing would be to identify which law mandates that complaints go via an MP, and establish whether it is primary or secondary legislation.
> 
> If it is primary legislation, and Act of Parliament would be required to remove this provision.  A clause could be inserted into another, unrelated, Bill going through the House, but you would of course require support from MPs to get this to happen.  Then it would be subject to the usual debate and votes before it could become law.  But given we are heading closer to the next General Election, Parliamentary time will be very limited as the Government will be trying to pass the Bills that have been highlighted in the Queen's Speech.  This might mean you stand no chance of the law being changed.
> 
> If it is secondary legislation (i.e. a SI or Statutory Instrument) this would be slightly easier to amend.  This is because SIs are in effect passed by the relevant Minister, and the SI is placed in the House of Commons.  From my understanding, these are very rarely debated.  So if it is in an SI you would have to identify the Government Department which owned the issue, and lobby them for change.



Would you like to join me and campaign for changing this idiotic legislation?


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

how about Ingeus:
My Work Programme provider is denying my right to raise complain, they wrote to me that they not going to respond on my complains.

In contract between DWP and Work Programme provider stayed that 4 stages complain procedure should be provided for clients as part of the contract.

DWP ignored my complaint against Work Programme provider – not responded.

Independent Case Examiner is examining “my satisfaction” only, not contract with DWP.

Can I go to court to claim my statuary right to complain and receive reply as per contract between DWP and Ingeus?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Would you like to join me and campaign for changing this idiotic legislation?


 
No thanks.  As I said earlier, this is simply a non-issue for me and I see no injustice that is worth expending my energy campaigning against. 

I suspect there is more to this situation that meets the eye - you say in post 107 that the contractor has told you they will not respond to your complaints.  That is unusual, and in my experience such a robust approach is rarely used, and only when a member of the public is vexatious or abusive in some way.  I've taken it occasionally at work, but never made the decision lightly because it is a serious step. Ditto DWP and your MP.  It may be that your behaviour and/or approach to things (as seen sometimes on this thread, by being rude to people), has caused these problems.  I don't know if this is the case, but my experience suggests that it might be, given the context of this thread.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> how about Ingeus:
> My Work Programme provider is denying my right to raise complain, they wrote to me that they not going to respond on my complains.
> 
> In contract between DWP and Work Programme provider stayed that 4 stages complain procedure should be provided for clients as part of the contract.
> ...


 
I don't know - I'm not a lawyer.  If you are contemplating taking action through the court I strongly suggest you seek legal advice, rather than asking for such advice on an internet forum.  Taking court action is very stressful, and often costly, so it is imperative to make sure you have a sufficient ground before lodging any claim.


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> No thanks.  As I said earlier, this is simply a non-issue for me and I see no injustice that is worth expending my energy campaigning against.
> 
> I suspect there is more to this situation that meets the eye - you say in post 107 that the contractor has told you they will not respond to your complaints.  That is unusual, and in my experience such a robust approach is rarely used, and only when a member of the public is vexatious or abusive in some way.  I've taken it occasionally at work, but never made the decision lightly because it is a serious step. Ditto DWP and your MP.  It may be that your behaviour and/or approach to things (as seen sometimes on this thread, by being rude to people), has caused these problems.  I don't know if this is the case, but my experience suggests that it might be, given the context of this thread.


Well, if in my complaints I have been rude then obviously such reason /  expalnation should be provided, "We not responding because complain is rude". Maybe this people are simply incompetent and they do not know what to answer but lack of reply only maintains such opinion. Also if somebody is called rude is always good idea to prove that by quoting certain text


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Well, if in my complaints I have been rude then obviously such reason should be provided, We not responding because complain is rude". Maybe this people are simply incompetent and they do not know what to answer but lack of reply only maintains such opinion.


 
That may be true - I obviously don't know the full details of your case.  However, if it was just incompetence it would be unlucky (going by my experience) to suffer incompetence from a number of organisations simultaneously, with the contractor refusing to deal with your complaint, the DWP just ignoring it, and your MP failing to forward on your Ombudsman complaint.  Yes, this coincidence could happen, but it just sounds unlikely.  But either way, I wish you well and hope you manage to achieve some resolution to the issues you are dealing with.


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> That may be true - I obviously don't know the full details of your case.  However, if it was just incompetence it would be unlucky (going by my experience) to suffer incompetence from a number of organisations simultaneously, with the contractor refusing to deal with your complaint, the DWP just ignoring it, and your MP failing to forward on your Ombudsman complaint.  Yes, this coincidence could happen, but it just sounds unlikely.  But either way, I wish you well and hope you manage to achieve some resolution to the issues you are dealing with.


Well, vast majority of the people do not complaint simply because - YES - people who dealing with complains are INCOMPETENT so VAST majority of the ordinary citizens will "leave it" because system is manage by not very clever but for sure well paid clerks. It is very common and only people "out of touch" may not notice this simply facts.  So there is fundamental question about intellectual capabilities / quality of clerks / officials who are taking money from the government for their lack of work.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Well, vast majority of the people do not complaint simply because - YES - people who dealing with complains are INCOMPETENT so VAST majority of the ordinary citizens will "leave it" because system is manage by not very clever but for sure well paid clerks. It is very common and only people "out of touch" may not notice this simply facts.  So there is fundamental question about intellectual capabilities / quality of clerks / officials who are taking money from the government for their lack of work.


 
If you are using such comments in your complaints, I wouldn't be surprised if they are ignored.  Your statement is a massive sweeping generalisation of many many thousands of people who deal with complaints in one capacity or another.  To say they are all incompetent is obviously nonsense as you couldn't possibly know this for a fact.  Yes, you may have encountered difficulties with regards your complaints, but that doesn't warrant slagging off everyone who deals with complaints.  But sadly, you used the same approach when criticising legislation, and the drafters of it - and it really does come across as very rude and inconsiderate of others.

Just because you haven't got what you wanted, or the outcome you perceive to be right and just, you seem to think there is something therefore wrong/lacking/etc. in others.  When in actual fact you might just be the person without a valid complaint, or are just plain wrong. 

For the record though - I know people who deal with complaints and some of them are very clever people and often aren't well-paid.  The numbers of complaints in many sectors is rising, so your assertion that most people don't bother complaining is just wrong.  And because I don't recognise the picture you paint, I must therefore be out of touch?  I would disagree with that.

And you final sentence made me laugh.  Are you a journalist on the Daily Mail by any chance?  If not, you could easily get a job with them with that sort of bollocks argument.


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## tufty79 (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> system is manage by not very clever but for sure well paid clerks.


i'm not thick. and was on £9 an hour.
my friend who worked in the PHSO as a caseworker also isn't thick, and didn't get paid a vast amount more than me.
(agency work ftw).
so thanks for that, alonsoss


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> If you are using such comments in your complaints, I wouldn't be surprised if they are ignored.  Your statement is a massive sweeping generalisation of many many thousands of people who deal with complaints in one capacity or another.  To say they are all incompetent is obviously nonsense as you couldn't possibly know this for a fact.  Yes, you may have encountered difficulties with regards your complaints, but that doesn't warrant slagging off everyone who deals with complaints.  But sadly, you used the same approach when criticising legislation, and the drafters of it - and it really does come across as very rude and inconsiderate of others.
> 
> Just because you haven't got what you wanted, or the outcome you perceive to be right and just, you seem to think there is something therefore wrong/lacking/etc. in others.  When in actual fact you might just be the person without a valid complaint, or are just plain wrong.
> 
> ...


Complaining process is the only way for majority to claim their rights in this country ("as courts are expensive") therefore should be efficient and easily accessible (by this I mean  to get an answer only then complain has any sense). It is not difficult to find out how many complaints has been made to this or that organization (not too many), also is good idea ask friends if they would be complaining, majority will answer NO. No because they not believe that it will make any change. It is very deep in the culture "play a dumb" (cynicism) approach to many, many problems. For me £24K is good pay and outside London is very good. . Lack of providing clear rules and clear consequences (fines) for lack of addressing the complains make whole system extremely silly and grotesque. BTW in majority EU countries all aspects paid by public money companies (like Ingeus) are covered by Administration Tribunal which are always free of charge and have imposed  deadlines (usually less than 6 months) to judge the case.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> i'm not thick. and was on £9 an hour.
> my friend who worked in the PHSO as a caseworker also isn't thick, and didn't get paid a vast amount more than me.
> (agency work ftw).
> so thanks for that, alonsoss


 
I suspect both you and me have seen complaints containing such generalisations and insults, on more than one occasion! While alonsoss is not quite as extreme as some - the truly bonkers ones who are good entertainment - the approach they take here, if replicated in their complaints, will inevitably result in the complaint being taken less seriously.


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## tufty79 (Oct 25, 2013)

my favourite ever complaint was addressed to 'THE BLIND SOCIETY OF [THE THING THE SOCIETY WAS FOR] WHO HAVE NO EYES'. it also contained some fruity language 

ever worked in engineering, alonsoss?


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## tufty79 (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Out of topic but important  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hunting-the-nightmare-bacteria/


and please can you explain this post?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Complaining process is the only way for majority to claim their rights in this country ("as courts are expensive") therefore should be efficient and easily accessible.


 
I agree - any complaint system should fulfil these criteria. 



alonsoss said:


> It is not difficult to find out how many complaints has be made to this or that organization, also is good idea ask friends if they would be complaining, majority will answer NO. No because they not believe that it will make any change. It is very deep in the culture "play a dumb" (cynicism) approach to many, many problems.


 
As I mentioned before, the level of complaints is rising in a number of sectors, so this doesn't quite square with your assertion that most people wouldn't bother to complain.  Additionally, the views expressed by your group of friends may well differ from those expressed by mine.  People are more willing in my experience to assert their rights.



alonsoss said:


> For me £24K is good pay and outside London is very good. .


 
Perhaps it is a reasonable salary, but it depends how you measure it and where exactly the person earning this lives, and what sort of life they have (kids, etc.).



alonsoss said:


> Lack of providing clear rules and clear consequences (fines) for lack of addressing the complains make whole system extremely silly and grotesque.


 
The complaints procedures are, in my experience of civil service departments and many private companies, quite well designed.  That's not to say they are perfect - inevitably they can't be - but reasonable to deal with the issue of complaints by and large. 

Only speaking from my experience, staff working within the complaints handling area of a business will be constrained by the rules of the system, and require the usual seniority to be able to make certain decisions. 
If a member of staff ignores or mishandles a complaint, without just cause, then invariably they would face management action of some kind as a result. 

I'm not sure how a fine system would work.  Particularly for public bodies, if they repeatedly mishandle complaints and this leads to very critical reports by the Ombudsman, this can lead to a considerable degree of political fall out, with questions being asked in the House, Select Committee hearings, and the like.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> my favourite ever complaint was addressed to 'THE BLIND SOCIETY OF [THE THING THE SOCIETY WAS FOR] WHO HAVE NO EYES'. it also contained some fruity language
> 
> ever worked in engineering, alonsoss?


 
My favourites are the conspiraloon ones.  Massively entertaining, and get passed round to give people a laugh.  Bad language is always a plus!  

I've seen so many of these I could write a book.  Tempting...


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> and please can you explain this post?


it is topic which may "touch" anyone very soon if "they" will not fined the cure. So all our discussion we can put to our a...You must understand that only for last hmm 60 years people are really free from infectious diseases
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...oison_The_Search_for_Modern_Medicines_Poison/
before that such desises taken 20,30,50% of the population, so we are very lucky, very
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01d56dn/episodes/guide


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I agree - any complaint system should fulfil these criteria.
> this can lead to a considerable degree of political fall out, .


Disregard  for peoples rights (e.g. right to complain or go to Tribunal) may cause much serious consequences like riots or hmmm revolution? ;-)


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## tufty79 (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> it is topic which may "touch" anyone very soon if "they" will not fined the cure. So all our discussion we can put to our a...You must understand that only for last hmm 60 years people are really free from infectious diseases
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...oison_The_Search_for_Modern_Medicines_Poison/
> before that such desises taken 20,30,50% of the population, so we are very lucky, very
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01d56dn/episodes/guide


new thread?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Disregard  for peoples rights (e.g. right to complain or go to Tribunal) may cause much serious consequences like riots or hmmm revolution? ;-)


 
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here.  Rights are, by definition, limited, as they need to be balanced against other competing factors, including the rights of others.  So a system may be designed so that it requires certain steps to be followed (e.g. complaining to an Ombudsman via an MP), or not permit appeal rights in certain circumstances (e.g. to a tribunal), but I don't quite see how that may lead to rioting or revolution.  This seems a strange link to make.


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> My favourites are the conspiraloon ones.  Massively entertaining, and get passed round to give people a laugh.  Bad language is always a plus!
> 
> I've seen so many of these I could write a book.  Tempting...


I am Cisco engineer and Microsoft as well.....unemployed for long, long time hahahahaha


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> I am Cisco engineer and Microsoft as well.....unemployed for long, long time hahahahaha


 
Did you mean to reply to tufty79?


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here.  Rights are, by definition, limited, as they need to be balanced against other competing factors, including the rights of others.  So a system may be designed so that it requires certain steps to be followed (e.g. complaining to an Ombudsman via an MP), or not permit appeal rights in certain circumstances (e.g. to a tribunal), but I don't quite see how that may lead to rioting or revolution.  This seems a strange link to make.


It is very extreme assumption (revolution or riots) but obviously I can feel or see that many many people are not happy how their problems are addressed or not addressed. Yes, it is a balance, so this people who keep this balance they must be very careful to not go to far in their ignorance.


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## alonsoss (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Did you mean to reply to tufty79?


no to farmerbarleymow   "ever worked in engineering, alonsoss? "


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## tufty79 (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> no to farmerbarleymow   "ever worked in engineering, alonsoss? "


are you reading these boards on an etch-a-sketch?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> are you reading these boards on an etch-a-sketch?


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> It is very extreme assumption (revolution or riots) but obviously I can feel or see that many many people are not happy how their problems are addressed or not addressed. Yes, it is a balance, so this people who keep this balance they must be very careful to not go to far in their ignorance.


 
Perhaps that is true, but I very much doubt there would be revolution just because of a flaw in a complaints system! That would be a rather extreme reaction to a minor issue...


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## tufty79 (Oct 25, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Perhaps that is true, but I very much doubt there would be revolution just because of a flaw in a complaints system! That would be a rather extreme reaction to a minor issue...


the placard slogans would all be in green paint.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 25, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> the placard slogans would all be in green paint.


 
Naturally!


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## alonsoss (Oct 26, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Perhaps that is true, but I very much doubt there would be revolution just because of a flaw in a complaints system! That would be a rather extreme reaction to a minor issue...


Complaining process gives glimps how (poor) whole system works. Most of the riots or turmoil was started because of very minor problems.


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## alonsoss (Oct 26, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Naturally!


Yeah!!!!


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 26, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Complaining process gives glimps how (poor) whole system works. Most of the riots or turmoil was started because of very minor problems.


 
From my perspective, the complaints process works perfectly well, as I've explained above.  So no, I don't share your view about it showing how the system as a whole is poor.  And I won't watch that youtube clip as I can't stand Russell Brand.


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## alonsoss (Oct 26, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> From my perspective, the complaints process works perfectly well, as I've explained above.  So no, I don't share your view about it showing how the system as a whole is poor.  And I won't watch that youtube clip as I can't stand Russell Brand.


If complain is not addressed system cannot work well by any standards or means.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 26, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> If complain is not addressed system cannot work well by any standards or means.


 
I've mentioned before that given some of your posts on this thread it seems to me, based on my experience, that there is more to this than meets the eye, and the approach you take may be the reason why your complaints are being ignored.  I've seen this too often to discount the possibility I'm afraid. 

Assuming I'm correct, then the complaints system work quite well, and may have justifiably rejected your complaint(s) as vexatious due to the approach you have taken.

I might be completely wrong here of course, but my instinct tells me I am not.


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## alonsoss (Oct 26, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I've mentioned before that given some of your posts on this thread it seems to me, based on my experience, that there is more to this than meets the eye, and the approach you take may be the reason why your complaints are being ignored.  I've seen this too often to discount the possibility I'm afraid.
> 
> Assuming I'm correct, then the complaints system work quite well, and may have justifiably rejected your complaint(s) as vexatious due to the approach you have taken.
> 
> I might be completely wrong here of course, but my instinct tells me I am not.


As I said earlier if complain is vexatious in civilize system should be provided explanation why is vexatious and which part, otherwise there is genuine assumption that people who dealing with complains are not intellectually capable to deal with complain and should try something less challenging like hmm pizza delivery. Not every job is for every one. Some people are in wrong place but overall if system is allowing to ignore complain without any consequences that means system is not efficient and should be adjust to European standard.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 26, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> As I said earlier if complain is vexatious in civilize system should be provided explanation why is vexatious and which part, *otherwise there is genuine assumption that people who dealing with complains are not intellectually capable to deal with complain and should try something less challenging like hmm pizza delivery. Not every job is for every one.* Some people are in wrong place but overall if system is allowing to ignore complain without any consequences that means system is not efficient and should be adjust to European standard.


 
Well, there are vexatious complaints and there are vexatious complaints, and the two differ by quite some margin. 

Some are vexatious because the complaint has been dealt with, and the complainant is simply raising the same issues again and again because they don't like the outcome.  In cases like this it is reasonable to expect the organisation to send a brief letter explaining that the issues raised have been dealt with, and unless new substantive issues are raised, further correspondence will be filed without action.  If the complainer continues to raise the same issues, then it is entirely reasonable to simply ignore it.

Some are vexatious because they are simply abusive, and as above, I don't see why the complainant should receive more than a cursory rejection, if that.  I've seen some shocking abuse aimed at staff within an organisation from complainants, and they rightly get short shrift.

If the legal framework under which a complaint is made requires an explanation, then yes, you would be entitled to one, subject to your complaint not being outright abusive or repetitive as above. 

I don't of course know whether your complaint falls into any of these types, given I've not seen it, but I do suspect it might given this:

The section of your post I've highlighted yet again reveals your contemptuous attitude towards others when you don't get your way.  I'm not going to repeat what I've said before, bar saying that this attitude might explain why your complaints are ignored if you use this sort of language in them.  Given you have displayed this attitude repeatedly on this thread, I suspect you may well have used this sort of approach.

And for the record, there will be plenty of people who work in pizza delivery jobs who are very intelligent.


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## Manter (Oct 26, 2013)

This thread is... Fascinating. Fair play to farmerbarleymow and tufty79 for trying to talk sense but I suspect this is a losing battle


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## tufty79 (Oct 26, 2013)

Manter said:


> This thread is... Fascinating. Fair play to farmerbarleymow and tufty79 for trying to talk sense but I suspect this is a losing battle


it is. i've been trying and failing to talk sense for years


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 26, 2013)

Manter said:


> This thread is... Fascinating. Fair play to farmerbarleymow and tufty79 for trying to talk sense but I suspect this is a losing battle


 
It certainly is.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 26, 2013)

Oh, and I've reread the thread and in post 70 it appears that there are 3 complaints to the Ombudsman, all seemingly stuck in the MP's office. 

Now I don't know if this is unusual, but tufty79 may be able to give us her experience of whether this is typical of complaints to the PHSO. I would have thought it more typical to have just a single complaint to the Ombudsman once you've exhausted all other options and escalate it in this way, but I might well be wrong.


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## Manter (Oct 26, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Oh, and I've reread the thread and in post 70 it appears that there are 3 complaints to the Ombudsman, all seemingly stuck in the MP's office.
> 
> Now I don't know if this is unusual, but tufty79 may be able to give us her experience of whether this is typical of complaints to the PHSO. I would have thought it more typical to have just a single complaint to the Ombudsman once you've exhausted all other options and escalate it in this way, but I might well be wrong.


I don't think typical comes into this...


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

Manter said:


> I don't think typical comes into this...


 
I think you may be right!


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Well, there are vexatious complaints and there are vexatious complaints, and the two differ by quite some margin.
> 
> Some are vexatious because the complaint has been dealt with, and the complainant is simply raising the same issues again and again because they don't like the outcome.  In cases like this it is reasonable to expect the organisation to send a brief letter explaining that the issues raised have been dealt with, and unless new substantive issues are raised, further correspondence will be filed without action.  If the complainer continues to raise the same issues, then it is entirely reasonable to simply ignore it.
> 
> ...


To receive a reply for a complain should be a statuary right of every compiling procedure especially in the organization which is truly and purely paid by European and UK taxpayers. As Cameron said that Work Programme providers are paid by RESULTS is BULLSHIT because they they do not have results at all  therefore they should be a bankrupt as Ingeus management is not intellectually capable to help people return to work and to reply on complain. Free market is not for ignorants.
I have to agree that is will be a lot intelligent people in pizza delivery  as this job is less intellectually challenging for many Ingeus "managers" it could be a perfect match.
Perfect match because Ingeus managers are not intellectually capable to follow complain procedure and to have "return to work" results either. The difference is: pizza delivery is  private establishment and Ingeus is fully subsidized for job which they are not capable to do.
A I said before if complain is vexatious in civilize system should be provided explanation and prove why is vexatious and which part, otherwise there is genuine assumption that people who dealing with complains are not intellectually capable to deal with complain and should try something less challenging for private not public money.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> To receive a reply for a complain should be a statuary right of every compiling procedure especially in the organization which is truly and purely paid by European and UK taxpayers. As Cameron said that Work Programme providers are paid by RESULTS is BULLSHIT because they they do not have results at all  therefore they should be a bankrupt as Ingeus management is not intellectually capable to help people return to work and to reply on complain. Free market is not for ignorants.
> I have to agree that is will be a lot intelligent people in pizza delivery  as this job is less intellectually challenging for many Ingeus "managers" it could be a perfect match.
> Perfect match because Ingeus managers are not intelligently capable to follow complain procedure and to have "return to work" results either. The difference is: pizza delivery is  private establishment and Ingeus is fully subsidized for job which they are not capable to do.
> A I said before if complain is vexatious in civilize system should be provided explanation and prove why is vexatious and which part, otherwise there is genuine assumption that people who dealing with complains are not intellectually capable to deal with complain and should try something less challenging for private not public money.


Here we go again! 

Same old same old - you haven't got your way, so everyone involved in the system is thick. 

You should have the absolute right to a reply to any and every complaint - showing that you have completely ignored the real world reasons why that is just unreasonable I've explained above.  

It is interesting that you haven't answered my observations that I suspect this intransigent attitude towards others may well be the very reason why your complaints are ignored. 

You also haven't explained why you have sent 3 complaints to the Ombudsman rather than the 1 I would expect. 

Over to you...


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Here we go again!
> 
> Same old same old - you haven't got your way, so everyone involved in the system is thick.
> 
> ...


Ombudsman cases are 2 years old. 3 complains each different and about different organization , make little effort to reading my post with a little attention.

Same old same old - you haven't got your way, so everyone who is complaining is thick.

Attitude has nothing to do with the content of the problem. Every request e.g. paying costs of transport can be explained as aggressive or excessive. If you as Ingeus manager has nothing to offer apart from making good impression and cashing up EU and UK taxpayers then the only "reasonable" approach is do deny, deny anything "they"/ unemployed request.

In the real world people are paid for being productive and intellectually capable to to deal with the market and the problems not for pretending the job and doing absolutely nothing (like in Ingeus). In the real world complains are addressed or if complains are vexatious reason and prove is given why complains are vexatious.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Ombudsman cases are 2 years old. 3 complains each different and about different organization , *make little effort to reading my post with a little attention*.
> 
> Same old same old - you haven't got your way, so everyone who is complaining is thick.
> 
> ...


 
Seeing as either you are a hopelessly uninventive troll, or just hard of understanding, you want to take heed of your own advice I've highlighted in bold above.

So, for the sake of absolute clarity here, although I don't know why I'm bothering as you'll just ignore this as you have many times, I've went right back to the start of this thread and here is the synopsis.

Your issue was first mentioned in post 22 and the quote of yours in that post by another poster didn't link to anything earlier in the thread, so it isn't clear what happened there, although in post 33 you bizarrely accused me of disabling your account and being in the pay of this company you have a dispute with.

It was only in post 50, after various general moaning from you about the procedure for Ombudsman complaints, that you actually referred to your own complaints.  You did not, at this point, specify the number of complaints nor the organisations they were against.  Nor did you specify the substance of your complaints.

In post 55 you refer again to your complaint, but you refer to this complaint in the singular rather than plural.  Once again, you did not specify the organisation this individual complaint was against, nor its substance.

And now we move on to post 70, where you refer to your three complaints, and claim they are in your MP's office.  This is the first time you did this, but you did not specify that they were against different organisations or just one - indeed, you didn't even mention the name of _any_ organisation.  You also didn't specify the substance of these complaints.

And then the rest of your posts comprise of more repeated whinging about the procedural aspects of complaints both to organisations and the Ombudsman, and general accusations of people being thick, unable to understand your posts (hardly surprising, with respect, as your written English is not very good at all), and general moaning about the 3rd world.

At no point in this thread have you said which organisations your Ombudsman complaints are against, nor what the substance of your complaints is about.  Further, you kept chopping and changing with regard the number of complaints, as I describe above - so first you had more than one complaint, then a single complaint, and finally three complaints.  It is hardly fair to expect people to keep track of this extremely inconsistent approach of yours.

Your post I'm responding to here contains yet more moaning about this company contracted to the DWP, and further whinging about people being thick.  Change the record please.

Several people on here have tried to help you with specific and useful advice as to how to progress the issues that are clearly important to you, yet you simply keep saying the same things, and asking others to get involved in your nascent campaign for a referendum without actually taking any of the advice provided on board.  It is all rather tedious and a waste of everyone's time.

If you want help, you need to listen to what people say, and provide the details they need to best help you.  What you don't do, and this is exactly what you _have_ done, is provide partial, incomplete and inconsistent information about the issues you want advice on, ignore the advice provided in good faith, continue to whinge about the issue and accuse multiple groups of people, including those trying to help you on here, of being thick.

As I said earlier, given your behaviour on here I'm not in the least bit surprised your complaints are being ignored.  I actually feel sorry for the recipients of your complaints!


----------



## Manter (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow you have the patience of a saint. I am now only reading this thread to find out when you crack...


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

Manter said:


> farmerbarleymow you have the patience of a saint. I am now only reading this thread to find out when you crack...


 
You bastard!


----------



## Manter (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> You bastard!


I am really quite looking forward to the impending meltdown....


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

Manter said:


> I am really quite looking forward to the impending meltdown....


 
Meany!  I am listening to calming music and that is helping my blood pressure.


----------



## Manter (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Meany!  I am listening to calming music and that is helping my blood pressure.


That's just delaying the inevitable. And heightening the anticipation


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

Manter said:


> That's just delaying the inevitable. And heightening the anticipation


 
Right, I'm going to be uber calm just to spoil your fun!


----------



## Manter (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Right, I'm going to be uber calm just to spoil your fun!


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Seeing as either you are a hopelessly uninventive troll, or just hard of understanding, you want to take heed of your own advice I've highlighted in bold above.
> 
> So, for the sake of absolute clarity here, although I don't know why I'm bothering as you'll just ignore this as you have many times, I've went right back to the start of this thread and here is the synopsis.
> 
> ...


AS I said it is not about your surprise it is about to be competent to handle complains (to pay for transport costs as per contract with DWP), follow the procedure and have respect for the law /  contract / client. I have not influence on people who may or not may understand the post. It is obvious that some people may not, it is depends on their intellectual capability but obviously I am very surprise as topic is very simply and straightforward.  Lack of understanding of the post it may suggest why Work Programme is such a failure, it looks like people who are in charge of Work Programme do not understand either: what they doing, why they doing, what for they doing. For sure they know how to cash up European taxpayers but I think it is not enough. As per Cameron   Work Programme provider should be paid per RESULT only not per good impression. It looks like Work Programme is another mystification to drain money from taxpayers. Anyway anyone who cannot understand should really consider pizza delivery job: there is, for sure, plenty of opportunities out there. Free market is not for ignorants and not for cheap actors.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> AS I said it is not about your surprise it is about to be competent to handle complains (to pay for transport costs as per contract with DWP), follow the procedure and have respect for the law /  contract / client.


 
You have already been given advice about how to escalate this complaint to the contractor and DWP - it is now up to you to follow this up.  There is absolutely no point in continuing to moan about this here, unless you think the DWP complaints department read this forum, which is rather doubtful. Perhaps you intend on spending the rest of your life whining about this without actually taking any practical steps to address it?



alonsoss said:


> I have not influence on people who may or not may understand the post. It is obvious that some people may not, it is depends on their intellectual capability but obviously I am very surprise as topic is very simply and straightforward.


 
I'm not clear whether you refer to people on here, including me, who do not understand the posts you have made on this thread, or whether you refer to those at the contractor/DWP not understanding the complaints you have sent to them in the post.

But either way, you are falling back on your childish accusations of people being thick because you have not got what you wanted.  Might I suggest that rather than continue with your silly tantrum, you actually take concrete steps to take your complaints forward with the contractor/DWP?  As above, they won't be reading this thread so you are wasting your time repeatedly griping about it here like a petulant child throwing their toys out of the pram.



alonsoss said:


> Lack of understanding of the post it may suggest why Work Programme is such a failure, it looks like people who are in charge of Work Programme do not understand either: what they doing, why doing, what for they doing. For sure they know how to cash up European taxpayers but I think it is not enough. As per Cameron   Work Programme provider should be paid per RESULT not per good impression. It looks like Work Programme is another mystification to drain money from taxpayers.


 
Well, this is really a political point so this might be something you may wish to raise with your MP.  Oh wait, they ignore your correspondence - that is a shame!

You could arrange an appointment to discuss it with them at the constituency surgery MPs hold - you should be able to find details on these on the relevant MP's website.

For the record, I apologise unreservedly in advance to this so-far unnamed MP for making this suggestion!



alonsoss said:


> Anyway anyone who cannot understand should really consider pizza delivery job: there is, for sure, plenty of opportunities out there. Free market is not for ignorants and not for cheap actors.


 
Thanks for the invaluable careers advice.  I will resign from my current job immediately and seek a job delivering pizzas.  Might be problematic, as I don't drive.  Would you be kind enough to teach me, or provide me with some helpful advice that I can ignore, and then keep on whinging that I can't drive and no-one is listening to me?


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> You have already been given advice about how to escalate this complaint to the contractor and DWP - it is now up to you to follow this up.  There is absolutely no point in continuing to moan about this here, unless you think the DWP complaints department read this forum, which is rather doubtful. Perhaps you intend on spending the rest of your life whining about this without actually taking any practical steps to address it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As I said earlier I would appreciate if you can read my posts with a little attention, just little. DWP not responded to complain which shows how ridiculous system is. Saying that paid by taxpayers organization is not obeying contract with DWP is based  on the facts - again read with little attention.
I absolutely agree "moan" should be heard somewhere else (e.g. in Administration Tribunal) but as per poor quality of legal system there is not too many ways to go so making people aware is also very valuable thing to do.
There is many video record "out there" showing promise that Work Programme provides will be paid only per RESULTS but again it may suggest that people who made such assumption are not intellectually papered to manage this stuff  or they new it that is not realistic approach  meanwhile getting good salaries and bonuses. Again, free market is not for ignorants.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 27, 2013)




----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> As I said earlier I would appreciate if you can read my posts with a little attention, just little. DWP not responded to complain which shows how ridiculous system is. Saying that paid by taxpayers organization is not obeying contract with DWP is based  on the facts - again read with little attention.
> I absolutely agree "moan" should be heard somewhere else (e.g. in Administration Tribunal) but as per poor quality of legal system there is not too many ways to go so making people aware is also very valuable thing to do.
> There is many video record "out there" showing promise that Work Programme provides will be paid only per RESULTS but again it may suggest that people who made such assumption are not intellectually papered to manage this stuff  or they new it that is not realistic approach  meanwhile getting good salaries and bonuses. Again, free market is not for ignorants.


I'm glad you agree your moan should be heard elsewhere - I suggest you go and do exactly that. There are plenty of other forums out there where you can post your repetitive drivel. Although no doubt you may have already done so from under your bridge.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I'm glad you agree your moan should be heard elsewhere - I suggest you go and do exactly that. There are plenty of other forums out there where you can post your repetitive drivel. Although no doubt you may have already done so from under your bridge.


Again would be great if you can read my post with very little attention. I wrote: "as per poor quality of legal system there is not too many ways to go ". Work Programme is another mystification to drain money from taxpayers. Repetition is necessary in case of audience deafness     BTW I am very impressed of your English, very.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Again would be great if you can read my post with very little attention. I wrote: "as per poor quality of legal system there is not too many ways to go ". Repetition is necessary in case of audience deafness     BTW I am very impressed of your English, very.


 
Oh, thanks for letting me know I'm deaf as well as thick - I never knew!  Fuck off you cretin.


----------



## Manter (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Oh, thanks for letting me know I'm deaf as well as thick - I never knew!  Fuck off you cretin.


Took longer than I expected ((farmerbarleymow ))


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

Manter said:


> Took longer than I expected ((farmerbarleymow ))


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Oh, thanks for letting me know I'm deaf as well as thick - I never knew!  Fuck off you cretin.


Let me quote Jacqui Smith former Home Secretary:  "Education, education, education", I have to agree with that , orajd?


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Let me quote Jacqui Smith former Home Secretary:  "Education, education, education", I have to agree with that , orajd?


 
Begone!  Back under your dank and fetid bridge, you ne'er-do-well.

And you might want to check your quotes before citing them...


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Begone!  Back under your dank and fetid bridge, you ne'er-do-well.
> 
> And you might want to check your quotes before citing them...


I know is hard, always is hard (especially for narrow minded imbeciles) but this is how it is. Not good, not good .


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Begone!  Back under your dank and fetid bridge, you ne'er-do-well.
> 
> And you might want to check your quotes before citing them...


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


>


True, true hahhahaha really? is it? yes of course you can ALWAYS call technical support from hmm other continent (to verify identity)?  Do not be shy EVERYONE is doing that, EVERYONE.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> True, true hahhahaha really? is it? yes of course you can ALWAYS call technical support from hmm other continent (to verify identity)?  Do not be shy EVERYONE is doing that, EVERYONE.


 
Are you posting from a secure mental hospital?


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Are you posting from a secure mental hospital?


No, from the UK  there is some kind of similarity of course ;-)
#################################################################
Well, there is not a secret that in the UK vast majority of the companies have (not only IT) support offshore and in the same time Government in investing big sums to train another thousands unemployed MCSA, CCNA and MCP so called "professionals" (with foreign surnames - if you have foreign surname you chances for a job are deceased by 90% ). So, allowing to companies have support offshore and in the same time train army of people knowing that they will not get any job is not very clever approach.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> No, from the UK  there is some kind of similarity of course ;-)
> #################################################################
> Well, there is not a secret that in the UK vast majority of the companies have (not only IT) support offshore and in the same time Government in investing big sums to train another thousands unemployed MCSA, CCNA and MCP so called "professionals" (with foreign surnames - if you have foreign surname you chances for a job are deceased by 90% ).


 
I wonder whether you are posting from one of these three locations - Crowthorne in Berkshire, Rampton in Nottinghamshire or Maghull in Merseyside. This would make an awful lot of sense.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 27, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I wonder whether you are posting from one of these three locations - Crowthorne in Berkshire, Rampton in Nottinghamshire or Maghull in Merseyside. This would make an awful lot of sense.


Well, from capital and I am not very proud of that.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 27, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Well, from capitol and I am not very proud of that.


 
Well good for you for not being proud of being from (or living in) London.  Jolly good - I'm pleased for you.  It is 'capital' by the way in English.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 28, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Well good for you for not being proud of being from (or living in) London.  Jolly good - I'm pleased for you.  It is 'capital' by the way in English.


hahahahhahaha, so old material............


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 28, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> hahahahhahaha, so old material............




It really isn't healthy to search for youtube clips of that vile individual you know.  It rots your brain.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 28, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> It really isn't healthy to search for youtube clips of that vile individual you know.  It rots your brain.


hahahahahahhaha
"The Work Programme is a major new* payment-for-results* welfare-to-work
programme that launched throughout Great Britain in June 2011. Along with
the Universal Credit benefit reforms, it is central to the Coalition Government’s
ambitious programme of welfare reform.
The Work Programme is being delivered by a range of private, public and voluntary sector
organisations which are supporting people who are at risk of becoming long-term unemployed to find work. It replaces previous programmes such as the New Deals, Employment Zones and Flexible New Deal and represents a long-term investment by government and its partners in seeking to help more people into lasting work.
The programme design combines strong long-term incentives with freedom for service providers to innovate. It is at the leading edge of wider government commissioning of *payment-for-results* public services."


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 28, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> hahahahahahhaha
> "The Work Programme is a major new payment-for-results welfare-to-work
> programme that launched throughout Great Britain in June 2011. Along with
> the Universal Credit benefit reforms, it is central to the Coalition Government’s
> ...


 
I'm aware of what this is, but it would be interesting to know your views on it - for example, whether you consider it a sensible policy, or whether you think otherwise. As it is, it looks like you've quoted from a DWP press release which obviously is spin.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 28, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I'm aware of what this is, but it would be interesting to know your views on it - for example, whether you consider it a sensible policy, or whether you think otherwise. As it is, it looks like you've quoted from a DWP press release which obviously is spin.


I am little bit shocked because my 179 posts are mainly about Work Programme provider so anyone who is reading should have opinion about it. Obviously I think this programme is a joke and I am the best example how this programme does NOT work.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 28, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> I am little bit shocked because my 179 posts are mainly about Work Programme provider so anyone who is reading should have opinion about it. Obviously I think this programme is a joke and I am the best example how this programme does NOT work.


 
I think you are once again missing the point here.  While you have raised issues around your complaints, I asked you in post 180 what your opinion of the programme because you just posted up what appeared to be a DWP press release without any interpretation by you to accompany it. 

OK, you don't think it is a good programme, but do you have more details as to why this is?  Just because you have encountered problems with it doesn't automatically mean that that it is a bad programme per se - you may have just been unlucky - so it would be interesting to learn more about your views about why the programme is a joke, as you put it.

Oh, and you haven't made 179 posts about this programme - your overall post count is 62 as of your previous message, whereas there have been 181 posts on this thread _in total_, mostly by other posters to be fair.

And I'm puzzled by your statement that anyone reading your posts should have an opinion about the matter.  Why should they?  It is not exactly within your gift to tell others that they should have any opinion on the subject - many people will be neutral on it as it doesn't affect them, or not be overly bothered either way.  So it is your job to persuade them that your view is valid by reasoned argument.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 28, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I think you are once again missing the point here.  While you have raised issues around your complaints, I asked you in post 180 what your opinion of the programme because you just posted up what appeared to be a DWP press release without any interpretation by you to accompany it.
> 
> OK, you don't think it is a good programme, but do you have more details as to why this is?  Just because you have encountered problems with it doesn't automatically mean that that it is a bad programme per se - you may have just been unlucky - so it would be interesting to learn more about your views about why the programme is a joke, as you put it.
> 
> ...


Obviously I was referring to close topics like Ombudsman and overall my post was about Work Programme provider Ingeus. In generally speaking programme is crap becouse:
- they do not want to pay you travel costs for interview as in contract between DWP and Ingeus,
- their vortal Works https://ingeusworks.co.uk/   does not work for last 7 months -access to exclusive job offers is mystification,
- they restrain you to contact them unless you have 10 minutes slot with adviser once a month (in contact stayed you should see adviser at least every 2 weeks)
- they do not refer you to potential employers - as Boris Johnson said British business is struggling to find employees.
- any course? forget it.
- Ingeus is paid by taxpayers not for RESULT only just for existence

Overall Work Programme is big mystification which is draining taxpayers money.


----------



## dlx1 (Oct 28, 2013)

> Ingeus is paid by taxpayers


  What a waste of money! Now two years coming to the end, there only so many times someone can giggle about with someone CV.

Been told got to join a Universal Jobmatch now


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 28, 2013)

dlx1 said:


> What a waste of money! Now two years coming to the end, there only so many times someone can giggle about with someone CV.
> 
> Been told got to join a Universal Jobmatch now


Ingeus advisers are very unhappy if you ask them for new cv, you know they are *"busy"* hahahahah
It is nothing wrong with Work Programme as idea behind was great but as usually in this country, if you hear from "manager" - "I am confident" to deliver this or that service just *RUNAWAY* as far as you can  "Confident" managers are serious problem in the UK. Would be much better if managers would be:
- qualify
- experienced
- opnen minded
- *competent
- helpful*
There is too many "confident" well paid idiots who decide about other peoples lives.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 29, 2013)

The State of Welfare
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01p0fpg


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Ingeus advisers are very unhappy if you ask them for new cv, you know they are *"busy"* hahahahah
> It is nothing wrong with Work Programme as idea behind was great but as usually in this country, if you hear from "manager" - "I am confident" to deliver this or that service just *RUNAWAY* as far as you can  "Confident" managers are serious problem in the UK. Would be much better if managers would be:
> - qualify
> - experienced
> ...


 
I completely accept that there are incompetent people out there (I've met plenty myself, and they are by no means all confident people), but I'd be interested if you could quantify 'too many' so I can gauge the scale of the problem you are alluding to.


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 29, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I completely accept that there are incompetent people out there (I've met plenty myself, and they are by no means all confident people), but I'd be interested if you could quantify 'too many' so I can gauge the scale of the problem you are alluding to.


too many = ohh boy many, many more than 50% for sure ; around 70% ? my modest assumption
BUT those who are clever are often "terrorize" by not clever majority.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> too many = ohh boy many, many more than 50% for sure ; around 70% ? my modest assumption
> BUT those who are clever are often "terrorize" by not clever majority.


 
It would be useful if you could provide data to back this up, as the claim of 70% is rather startling.  Do you have any properly conducted research which demonstrates your anecdote to be reliable?  I ask because it is always helpful to understand in advance what we are dealing with in all walks of life, and if we all know there was a 7 in 10 chance the person were are speaking to is incompetent, that would be to our advantage.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2013)

Oh, and another quick thought.  It would be useful if the research you are going to cite contains a breakdown of incompetence levels in different industry sectors, so we can see whether there are differing levels depending on the area concerned.  For example, retail, leisure centres, local government, central government, contractors to public authorities, undertakers, elected representatives, wig manufacturers, etc.  This would help paint the full picture of incompetence in Britain today.  I don't suppose you could cite historical data too, so we can identify trends?


----------



## alonsoss (Oct 29, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> It would be useful if you could provide data to back this up, as the claim of 70% is rather startling.  Do you have any properly conducted research which demonstrates your anecdote to be reliable?  I ask because it is always helpful to understand in advance what we are dealing with in all walks of life, and if we all know there was a 7 in 10 chance the person were are speaking to is incompetent, that would be to our advantage.


You are so smart , I am so impressed
2 people out of 100 in Work Programme get a job as per Ed Miliban in video above - it is  shameful achievement in comparison to money taken by Ingeus and other "helpers" from taxpayers. Also we do not know if this people will stay at work longer than 12 months. This result very well shows how INCOMPETENT managers are in Work Programme - do not forget Cameron said PAY PER RESULT, they paid (also by EU) without result and managers salaries are substantial. They paid for being born, not good not good.

In other hand many managers are complaining they cannot find employees
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...f-helping-unemployed-tick-boxes-benefits.html
This article shows how idiotic system is in the very core also very well shows "mentality" of average British so called "manager".. Yes I called her, she told that as I am from London so she cannot give me a job . .


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## tufty79 (Oct 29, 2013)

fuck me - the 'ignore thread' function's back


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> fuck me - the 'ignore thread' function's back


 
So it is - potentially very useful.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> You are so smart , I am so impressed
> 2 people out of 100 in Work Programme get a job as per Ed Miliban in video above - it is  shameful achievement in comparison to money taken by Ingeus and other "helpers" from taxpayers. Also we do not know if this people will stay at work longer than 12 months. This result very well shows how INCOMPETENT managers are in Work Programme - do not forget Cameron said PAY PER RESULT, they paid (also by EU) without result and managers salaries are substantial. They paid for being born, not good not good.
> 
> In other hand many managers are complaining they cannot find employees
> ...


 
Your reply doesn't really address the point I made in posts 189 and 190 - i.e. statistical data/research to back up your assertion of up to 70% of people being incompetent.  It really is important, as you can't expect me and others to take you seriously on your substantive points if you throw around claims like that without being able to back it up with evidence.

You compound your problem of credibility by throwing another unsubstantiated claim into the mix by saying "...very well shows 'mentality' of average British so called 'manager'".  You'd need to provide evidence to back this additional claim up as well, otherwise I can only conclude that you are just ranting without any evidence - and I wouldn't be able to take anything you say seriously.


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## alonsoss (Oct 29, 2013)




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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 29, 2013)

may i refer the thread to the 'dilbert principle'


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## alonsoss (Oct 29, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Your reply doesn't really address the point I made in posts 189 and 190 - i.e. statistical data/research to back up your assertion of up to 70% of people being incompetent.  It really is important, as you can't expect me and others to take you seriously on your substantive points if you throw around claims like that without being able to back it up with evidence.
> 
> You compound your problem of credibility by throwing another unsubstantiated claim into the mix by saying "...very well shows 'mentality' of average British so called 'manager'".  You'd need to provide evidence to back this additional claim up as well, otherwise I can only conclude that you are just ranting without any evidence - and I wouldn't be able to take anything you say seriously.


Ed Miliband provided evidences in video above. As only 2% clients get a job using Work Programme then is very easy make assumption how Work Programme is managed  by idiots. Article pasted above , I can past for you again
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...f-helping-unemployed-tick-boxes-benefits.html
give a glimps of mentality of typical British manager (including you?). It is national problem , she is not exception, she is typical for majority of the class. She will be probably lobbing for opening EU borders for new workforce as she cannot find employees..........I think if you cannot find employees you should sink (go down) or move out from EU.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> Ed Miliband provided evidences in video above. As only 2% clients get a job using Work Programme then is very easy make assumption how Work Programme is managed  by idiots. Article pasted above , I can past for you again
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...f-helping-unemployed-tick-boxes-benefits.html
> give a gimps of mentality of typical British manager (including you?). It is national problem , she is not exception, she is typical for majority of the class. She will be probably lobbing for opening EU borders as she cannot find employees..........


I'm not going to watch a video to try and find evidence to back up your claims (and waste bandwidth in the process). Its up to you to post the relevant information on here - not to just point people somewhere else and expect them to find it themselves.  

And with all respect, the Daily Mail is about as far removed from being a reliable source as it is possible to get. 

And again, yet more claims - it seems I am now a member of the incompetent cohort. Strange thing to say given you don't know me from Adam.


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## alonsoss (Oct 29, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> the Daily Mail is about as far removed from being a reliable source as it is possible to get.
> .


I called her, she is real , company is very successful but she cannot find employees - it is reliable information.


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## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2013)

alonsoss said:


> I called her, she is real , company is very successful but she cannot find employees - it is reliable information.


Says you. That's no better than an anecdote.


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