# "Shoreditch High St tube station should be called Banglatown"



## editor (May 20, 2008)

Yep, that's what one barmy councillor is insisting on BBC News London right now.


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## zenie (May 20, 2008)

what party are they from?


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## cesare (May 20, 2008)

Which councillor?


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## d.a.s.h (May 20, 2008)

Be interesting if it's a Tower Hamlets Labour councillor, as John Biggs, Labour GLA member for City and East, has come out against naming the station 'Banglatown'.

(Not that this is a new demand btw.)


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

It's the same Asian councillor bloke who wanted Aldgate East tube renamed Brick Lane last year.

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co....y=newsela&itemid=WeED25 Apr 2008 19:25:51:423

It's a stupid idea anyhow.


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## FridgeMagnet (May 20, 2008)

That's even stupider than the Brick Lane idea.


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## jæd (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> It's the same Asian councillor bloke who wanted Aldgate East tube renamed Brick Lane last year.
> 
> http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co....y=newsela&itemid=WeED25 Apr 2008 19:25:51:423
> 
> It's a stupid idea anyhow.



The new Shoreditch High Street Station is no-where near Brick Lane... Silly idea...


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's even stupider than the Brick Lane idea.


Indeed. Ridiculous name aside, given London's constantly shifting demographic, the name could be utterly meaningless to the area within ten years.


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## Jografer (May 20, 2008)

... problem is, when I first read this, I thought "...BNP..  "..

Road to hell etc etc....


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## Brainaddict (May 20, 2008)

Actually renaming aldgate east seems reasonable - it can be confused with the other aldgate, and brick lane is a much better known name.  

But Banglatown? That's crap on so many levels it's difficult to know where to start. And would we then rename Golders Green Jewtown?


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## littlebabyjesus (May 20, 2008)

Renaming Aldgate East Brick Lane seems quite a good idea.


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## Roadkill (May 20, 2008)

I don't see any problem with renaming Aldgate East either.  After all, a goodly proportion of people passing through it are heading for Brick Lane, and it's only a few minutes' walk away.  It makes sense to me.


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## Brainaddict (May 20, 2008)

Roadkill said:


> I don't see any problem with renaming Aldgate East either. After all, a goodly proportion of people passing through it are heading for Brick Lane, and it's only a few minutes' walk away. It makes sense to me.


Brick Lane is about 20 seconds walk away from the Eastern exit of Aldgate East tube. Does anyone know why that proposal didn't happen?


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## innit (May 20, 2008)

I don't mind either... lots of businesspeople do use Banglatown to promote the area, as in Chinatown.  I think Brick Lane for Aldgate East is better though.


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

I can live with 'Brick Lane' because it refers to an actual place that's been there for hundreds of years, but this 'Banglatown' idea is ridiculous. If tube stations had traditionally been  named on account of the local ethnic populations at the time, we'd have a right odd tube map by now.


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## d.a.s.h (May 20, 2008)

Was the councillor's name Mohammed Abdus Salique? His father ran a restaurant called 'Banglatown' from the early 1980s, and claims that he was the first person to coin the term. He (Abdus Salique senior) was also involved in the campaign to prevent the filming of Monica Ali's book _Brick Lane_ in the area a couple of years ago.


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## Brainaddict (May 20, 2008)

innit said:


> I don't mind either... lots of businesspeople do use Banglatown to promote the area, as in Chinatown.


Renaming an area for marketing purposes is just one of those things that happens. Renaming a tube station after an ethnic group opens a whole pandoras box, because it's official and looks like an official description of the area. 

Particularly inadvisable in the current political climate of backlash against immigrants - the City & East ward gave a strong vote to the BNP assembly member. I suppose that argument might seem like giving in to racists, but in my opinion the renaming would be a real own goal.


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## Brainaddict (May 20, 2008)

Also, immigrant populations change and move on. We'd look a bit silly in forty years time with a tube station called Banglatown in an area of predominantly Kazak immigrants wouldn't we?


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## chegrimandi (May 20, 2008)

why give this cretin anymore oxygen?

newsflash - there are some morons in the world that say stupid stuff

hold the front page!


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

Brainaddict said:


> Renaming an area for marketing purposes is just one of those things that happens. Renaming a tube station after an ethnic group opens a whole pandoras box, because it's official and looks like an official description of the area.


I think even the most racially tolerant people would be pissed off if their hometown suddenly got renamed to some makey-uppey marketing name.


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

chegrimandi said:


> why give this cretin anymore oxygen?


So what practical difference do you think discussing it here is going to make, considering it's already been on the BBC news?


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## scifisam (May 20, 2008)

Brick Lane for Aldgate East is fine - it's close by and is less confusing. 

Banglatown for Shoreditch High St would be nonsensical. That station won't even be that close to Brick Lane and the area that - very recently - has become known as Banglatown. And it would be a bit unfair to name it after one of the many ethnic groups in the area, as if they were the only ones that counted; mind you, we do already have White City.


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## chegrimandi (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> So what practical difference do you think discussing it here is going to make, considering it's already been on the BBC news?



he's obviously a self publicist councillor who likes to get a name for himself by coming out with this crap

by putting it here you're giving him more coverage and justifying his tactic

you're part of the problem ed. Sorry to have to break it to you.


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## Orang Utan (May 20, 2008)

I've always walked to Brick Lane from Liverpool Street cos I didn't know it had a closer tube station!


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## Radar (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> I think even the most racially tolerant people would be pissed off if their hometown suddenly got renamed to some makey-uppey marketing name.


Anyone remember the Surrey Dock/Quays uproar back in the late eighties ??


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## muckypup (May 20, 2008)

i really love how the media offer complete idiots valuable airtime. It really infuriates 'ethnic' communities, as such idiotic and trivial views appear representative and it also sidelines issues which are actually important.

This thread would do more justice to the issue if it addressed how the media select voices and issues which are not representative, and force them onto us thereby creating disharmony amongst communities. Its wholly irresponsible and a poor use of a valuable reasource.

grrrr


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## muckypup (May 20, 2008)

chegrimandi said:


> you're part of the problem ed. Sorry to have to break it to you.



I wholeheartedly agree   The tone of this thread takes the issue at face value rather then attempt to understand the manipulative factors which give rise to it.


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

chegrimandi said:


> you're part of the problem ed. Sorry to have to break it to you.


Could you quantify this please? In what way have I had any impact on this issue over and above the millions who have just watched it on the BBC?

And in what way am I part of the problem? What 'problem', exactly - I'm just discussing a lead story from the TV news - which I described as "barmy" in post one. 

But by posting on this thread and contributing to the discussion (and post count), aren't you equally guilty of whatever it is you're banging on about?


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## chegrimandi (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Could you quantify this please?



yup - the impact is *x* over *y* * 1.342 - a lol cat.


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## jæd (May 20, 2008)

We could rename more:

* Knightsbridge : Toffs Town
* Westminister : Nobs Town
* Richmond : Chav-Town-On-Thames
* Leicester Square : Hen Nightsville


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## Crispy (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Could you quantify this please?



I've worked it out. You are .043% of the problem, plus or minus 0.002%.


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

chegrimandi said:


> yup - the impact is *x* over *y* * 1.342 - a lol cat.


Perhaps you might draw up some guidelines of what BBC news stories you find acceptable for discussion in this forum and which ones you'd like banned?


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## Kid_Eternity (May 20, 2008)

If you're not part of the problem you're part of the solution...or something.


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## chegrimandi (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Perhaps you might draw up some guidelines of what BBC news stories you find acceptable for discussion in this forum and which ones you'd like banned?



sure no problem. How extensive do you require the document to be? 

I'd also like to not limit the scope and range of this project so maybe I could draw up a seperate document with guidelines for each of maybe say the top 100 news websites out there. That way should someone stray far from the tried and tested bbc we're ready for them and confusion and transgressions will not arise.


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## upsidedownwalrus (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Indeed. Ridiculous name aside, given London's constantly shifting demographic, the name could be utterly meaningless to the area within ten years.



Exactly.


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

chegrimandi said:


> sure no problem. How extensive do you require the document to be?
> 
> I'd also like to not limit the scope and range of this project so maybe I could draw up a seperate document with guidelines for each of maybe say the top 100 news websites out there. That way should someone stray far from the tried and tested bbc we're ready for them and confusion and transgressions will not arise.


I'd like a little graphic icon made up saying, "Thread personally approved by chegrimandi"  please.

Perhaps a nice thumbs up icon might be suitable with your smiling face behind it.

Threads that fail to pass your requirements could be automatically set to red Comic Sans text with a looped "Tut tut" soundtrack playing back while they're being read.

I think that would sort the problem out.


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## g force (May 20, 2008)

Banglatown is a crap idea....meaningless


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## chegrimandi (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> I'd like a little graphic icon made up saying, "Thread personally approved by chegrimandi"  please.
> 
> Perhaps a nice thumbs up icon might be suitable with your smiling face behind it.
> 
> ...



to be honest I think if you go down this root - not only will the popularity of your website increase overnight 16 fold - statistically and scientifically proven no less - but there will be an element of humour and fun introduced that many users complain is somewhat lacking at present.

*a thumbs up smiley*


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## editor (May 20, 2008)

Perhaps we could give you a slightly more chummy nickname and have you pro-actively pop up at random intervals to warn posters about what is and is not acceptable?

e.g.







Cheeky Cheggers says: _"No! You can't post that thread!"_


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## scifisam (May 20, 2008)

jæd said:


> We could rename more:
> 
> * Knightsbridge : Toffs Town
> * Westminister : Nobs Town
> ...



Tottenham Court Rd: Gayville.
Brixton: Ganjatown.
Notting Hill: Carnivalopia and Poshton.


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## Crispy (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Perhaps we could give you a slightly more chummy nickname and have you pro-actively pop up at random intervals to warn posters about what is and is not acceptable?[/I]



That's our job!


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## Orang Utan (May 20, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Tottenham Court Rd: Gayville.
> Brixton: Ganjatown.
> Notting Hill: Carnivalopia and Poshton.



Is Tottenham Court Road 'gay'


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## rutabowa (May 20, 2008)

Orang Utan said:


> Is Tottenham Court Road 'gay'


i guess it's the tube stop for soho. it could equally be called "Emotown" (for the Astoria) or something though


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## Kid_Eternity (May 20, 2008)

Ed, Chegs, the sexual chemistry between you two is staggering, get a room ffs!


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## BarryB (May 20, 2008)

As a Councillor for Haggerston Ward in Hackney which includes Shoreditch High Street there is no way that I will back any change of name to Banglatown.

BarryB


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## scifisam (May 20, 2008)

Orang Utan said:


> Is Tottenham Court Road 'gay'



Closest stop for Soho, like rutabowa says. It's make as much (or more) sense as calling Shoreditch High St Banglatown.


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## chegrimandi (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Perhaps we could give you a slightly more chummy nickname and have you pro-actively pop up at random intervals to warn posters about what is and is not acceptable?
> 
> e.g.
> 
> ...




this is a better pic






but I like the way you're thinking boss


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## PacificOcean (May 20, 2008)

Orang Utan said:


> I've always walked to Brick Lane from Liverpool Street cos I didn't know it had a closer tube station!



It's as broad as it is long getting off at Liverpool Street or Aldgate East for Brick Lane.

Depends which end you want.


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## rennie (May 20, 2008)

chegrimandi said:


> to be honest I think if you go down this root - not only will the popularity of your website increase overnight 16 fold - statistically and scientifically proven no less - but there will be an element of humour and fun introduced that many users complain is somewhat lacking at present.
> 
> *a thumbs up smiley*



You should definitely have your own website. Sounds like you have the key to the universe. Well done.


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## rutabowa (May 20, 2008)

PacificOcean said:


> It's as broad as it is long getting off at Liverpool Street or Aldgate East for Brick Lane.
> 
> Depends which end you want.



liverpool street's best for the more trendy end aldgate east for the indian restaurants. sorry bangladeshi restaurants


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## laptop (May 20, 2008)

When the council announced it was marketing Brick Lane as "Banglatown" I thought "yes please - let's make it authentic. I want goats wandering the streets eating yuppies' clothes, I want it to flood every monsoon season..."


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## PacificOcean (May 20, 2008)

How about naming it:

Shoreditch High Street for Dodgy Curry Houses and Poncey Bars West?


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## Roadkill (May 20, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Notting Hill: Carnivalopia and Poshton.



Grantsville?


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## chegrimandi (May 20, 2008)

rennie said:


> You should definitely have your own website. Sounds like you have the key to the universe. Well done.



I might set one up - would you be my number one fan if I did? You would then be the biggest and most committed fan of what would in all likelihood become the biggest website in the world - sound appealing? I bet it does.


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## Sunray (May 20, 2008)

Orang Utan said:


> I've always walked to Brick Lane from Liverpool Street cos I didn't know it had a closer tube station!



Until they shut it, Brick Lane had a station near the Bagle shops.  Shoreditch station on the East london line.  I'm assuming that they are going to move it somewhere a bit more obvious.


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## scifisam (May 20, 2008)

Sunray said:


> Until they shut it, Brick Lane had a station near the Bagle shops.  Shoreditch station on the East london line.  I'm assuming that they are going to move it somewhere a bit more obvious.



Nah - the new Shoreditch one is on Shoreditch High St (corner of Commercial St - or is it road? They're so confusing), further away from Brick Lane, closer to Hoxton. I wonder what they're going to do with the disused Shoreditch station, though?


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## smokedout (May 20, 2008)

BarryB said:


> As a Councillor for Haggerston Ward in Hackney which includes Shoreditch High Street there is no way that I will back any change of name to Banglatown.
> 
> BarryB



what do want, a medal from Stalin?


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## smokedout (May 20, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Tottenham Court Rd: Gayville.
> Brixton: Ganjatown.
> Notting Hill: Carnivalopia and Poshton.



Tottenham: Skintsville
Camden: Gothic Quarter
Islington: Cuntland

like this game


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## PacificOcean (May 20, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Nah - the new Shoreditch one is on Shoreditch High St (corner of Commercial St - or is it road? They're so confusing), further away from Brick Lane, closer to Hoxton. I wonder what they're going to do with the disused Shoreditch station, though?



The track where the station is (or just before) will become a ramp and a bridge to take the ELL over the mainline tracks that go into Liverpool Street - through what was the old Bishopsgate Goods Yard and then into the new Shoreditch High Street station.


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## HackneyE9 (May 20, 2008)

If anything, Shoreditch High Street Station = NathanBarleyville

surely?


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## laptop (May 20, 2008)

HackneyE9 said:


> If anything, Shoreditch High Street Station = NathanBarleyville




I'm sure I saw mock-ups in which it was called "Hoxton".

But now that's the name for a station which I think is on the site of the old North London Line Shoreditch - PDF map here


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## Crispy (May 20, 2008)

That's right. There's very little new track involvde in this extension, just the re-use of old track/trackbed, including the half-dismantled bridges over shoreditch high street and old street. It's completely obvious when you look at it on google maps. There's going to have to be some demolitions to get the line round to join onto the NLL at Dalston, though.


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## laptop (May 20, 2008)

Crispy said:


> There's going to have to be some demolitions to get the line round to join onto the NLL at Dalston, though.



That's just demolishing sheds that were stupidly built on the trackbed, though, isn't it?


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2008)

Crispy said:


> That's right. There's very little new track involvde in this extension, just the re-use of old track/trackbed, including the half-dismantled bridges over shoreditch high street and old street. It's completely obvious when you look at it on google maps. There's going to have to be some demolitions to get the line round to join onto the NLL at Dalston, though.



They have already rebuilt those bridges along Kingsland Road and demolition has more than started in Dalston.


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2008)

laptop said:


> That's just demolishing sheds that were stupidly built on the trackbed, though, isn't it?



When is the last time you past Daltston Junction going down Dalston Lane towards Graham road...loads of buildings have gone already.


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## Crispy (May 20, 2008)

laptop said:


> That's just demolishing sheds that were stupidly built on the trackbed, though, isn't it?


looks like it. there's a curve on the other side of that junction that would allow trains to run East along the NLL, but I don't think they're planning to reuse it.

 doh!

I completely messed up my interpretation of the aerial photography. they're not buildings that need demolishing, the rails run underground at Dalston junction. The East-bound junction _would_ be a problem though. looks like they've built a supermarket carpark where the rail wants to go.


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## Hocus Eye. (May 20, 2008)

Banglatown is a silly name.  Any estate agent will tell you that it should be Bangla Village.  Perhaps the new name could be in smaller letters under the name on the tube sign in a similar way to Little Venice.

The biggest drawback is that it would require a complete re-write of the rules of Mornington Crescent.  That is a task that could take a decade or more.





probably


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## laptop (May 20, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> When is the last time you past Daltston Junction going down Dalston Lane towards Graham road...loads of buildings have gone already.




Those would be the sheds I was talking about - and more between Boleyn Road and Kingsland High St.


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## laptop (May 20, 2008)

Crispy said:


> the rails run underground at Dalston junction.



I thought the track was in a cutting when the trains ran into Broad Street - did they bridge it? Or were there tunnels that I forgot?

E2A: (Or these aren't buildings, they're big square holes down to the trackbed?)




Crispy said:


> The East-bound junction _would_ be a problem though. looks like they've built a supermarket carpark where the rail wants to go.



Probably not much call for services from New Cross to Southend and Brighton via Dalston, these days 

(Yes, there used to be services from Broad Street to Southend, sporadically to Brighton - and frequently to Poplar, via that curve.)

E2A2: I'll have to think again about that Brighton thing. That would have meant running nearly into Liverpool Street and reversing down the old East London Line. Madder things were done in the name of competition, though.


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## Crispy (May 20, 2008)

Exactly - I mistook the square holes for sheds 
Lots of london has really low sun angles in the aerial photography, it's annoying.


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## George & Bill (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Indeed. Ridiculous name aside, given London's constantly shifting demographic, the name could be utterly meaningless to the area within ten years.



Not read the whole thread, but this is a stupid remark. Loads of places, stations, streets and so on are named after things no longer present - why is this a problem?

edit: I disagree with the 'Banglatown' thing because it is a stupid name, not because there is anything wrong with names that later become arbitrary.


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## smokedout (May 20, 2008)

part of me is quite attracted to the idea even though its daft just because itd be funny to watch people getting all apopleptic about it

but thats probably not a good reason to rename a train station


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2008)

laptop said:


> Those would be the sheds I was talking about - and more between Boleyn Road and Kingsland High St.



Well I was refering to the buildings talked about in this thread that are are part of the redevelopment in the area which includes the tube extension.


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Indeed. Ridiculous name aside, given London's constantly shifting demographic, the name could be utterly meaningless to the area within ten years.




Meaningless?

Not sure i like the name but many places in London have names that speak of their past surely?

The community in that area are significant and the area is known and associated with them, why shouldn't the name 'remember' them even if they are gone in ten years time?


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## innit (May 20, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Meaningless?
> 
> Not sure i like the name but many places in London have names that speak of their past surely?
> 
> The community in that area are significant and the area is known and associated with them, why shouldn't the name 'remember' them even if they are gone in ten years time?



I agree

I do like the name, think it has more positive connotations than Shoreditch - a name which is going out of use as more people refer to various parts of the area as Brick Lane, Spitalfields, Hoxton.. and Banglatown


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2008)

innit said:


> Banglatown



Actually, now you mention the present day connotations of the name 'Shoreditch' the name 'Banglatown' is growing on me.


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## scifisam (May 20, 2008)

innit said:


> I agree
> 
> I do like the name, think it has more positive connotations than Shoreditch - a name which is going out of use as more people refer to various parts of the area as Brick Lane, Spitalfields, Hoxton.. and Banglatown



But Shoreditch High St station isn't in Banglatown, or that near it.


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## George & Bill (May 20, 2008)

innit said:


> I agree
> 
> I do like the name, think it has more positive connotations than Shoreditch - a name which is going out of use as more people refer to various parts of the area as Brick Lane, Spitalfields, Hoxton.. and Banglatown



To be fair, I'm pretty sure that the name 'Shoreditch' is not 'going out of use' among the established population of the area - which doesn't include Hoxton, that being a separate district


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2008)

scifisam said:


> But Shoreditch High St station isn't in *Banglatown*, or that near it.



Where is Banglatown?


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## scifisam (May 20, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Where is Banglatown?



Bottom end of Brick Lane. The bit where Shoreditch High St is much more commercial and really rather white.

Aldgate East and Liverpool are both nearer to 'Banglatown.'


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## innit (May 20, 2008)

slowjoe said:


> To be fair, I'm pretty sure that the name 'Shoreditch' is not 'going out of use' among the established population of the area - which doesn't include Hoxton, that being a separate district



I worked in Tower Hamlets for years and know the area well, yet I'm unclear as to the exact boundaries - and in some areas both appear to be in interchangeable use, hence my argument that the names, in reference to distinct areas, are going out of use.


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## paolo (May 20, 2008)

If it was the common name for the area it would make some sense. If you built a new station slap bang in the middle of Chinatown, Chinatown would be a good name. Banglatown isn't the common name though. The argument for Aldgate East > Brick Lane made more sense.


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## Mation (May 21, 2008)

Brainaddict said:


> Also, immigrant populations change and move on. We'd look a bit silly in forty years time with a tube station called Banglatown in an area of predominantly Kazak immigrants wouldn't we?


lbj says, and I concur, that Brick Lane doesn't sound silly because bricks are no longer made there, so why should Banglatown? 

I definitely think renaming Aldgate East to Brick Lane is a good idea.


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## editor (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Where is Banglatown?


Mainly in the mind of the self-publicist trying to invent it.


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## editor (May 21, 2008)

Mation said:


> lbj says, and I concur, that Brick Lane doesn't sound silly because bricks are no longer made there, so why should Banglatown?


By that reckoning, they could have started the exciting rebranding years ago, with the area being called Brick Lane, Huguenot-town, Irish Weavers Village, Tailor's Town, Ashkenazi Jewishville, Brewerytown  and now Banglatown, with Cityfolk Yupsville quite possibly around the corner in a decade.


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## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Bottom end of Brick Lane. The bit where Shoreditch High St is much more commercial and really rather white.
> 
> Aldgate East and Liverpool are both nearer to 'Banglatown.'



The top end of Brick Lane where it meets Bethnal Green Road is about 3 minutes walk to the entrance of the of the new Shoreditch High Street Station.

I'm not arguing for a name change by the way, I actually don't mind either way.


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## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Mainly in the mind of the self-publicist trying to invent it.



Do you actually care that much Ed, really?


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## BarryB (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> The top end of Brick Lane where it meets Bethnal Green Road is about 3 minutes walk to the entrance of the of the new Shoreditch High Street Station.
> 
> I'm not arguing for a name change by the way, I actually don't mind either way.



Brick Lane is in Tower Hamlets. Shoreditch High Street is in Hackney. They are different areas. For instance in the Brick Lane area Respect are strong. In the Shoreditch High Street area they dont exist. There is no feeling in Hackney for the new stations name to be changed.

BarryB


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## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

BarryB said:


> Brick Lane is in Tower Hamlets. Shoreditch High Street is in Hackney. They are different areas. For instance in the Brick Lane area Respect are strong. In the Shoreditch High Street area they dont exist. There is no feeling in Hackney for the new stations name to be changed.
> 
> BarryB



Did you miss this part of my last post 






			
				me said:
			
		

> I'm not arguing for a name change by the way, I actually don't mind either way.





....and I think the new station is a Tower Hamlets postcode not a Hackney one.


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## cesare (May 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Mainly in the mind of the self-publicist trying to invent it.



LBTH has it on their website now as well. "Spitalfields and Banglatown" 

http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/data/discover/data/spitalfields/index.cfm

Website under construction, I wonder whose it is?

http://www.banglatown.org/

Quite interesting Beeb article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/london/article_1.shtml

------------------------------------------

Curious innit. 

I reckon that in 50-odd years the 'East End' will have been pushed geographically further east but will be still be home to the next wave of immigrant people. Safe landing place and keeps life interesting  

Banglatown? Why not? But also, why? 

Is it that important to mark passage on what, in effect, is the arrivals lounge?

But if it's that important, yeah, why not.


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## BarryB (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Did you miss this part of my last post
> 
> 
> 
> ....and I think the new station is a Tower Hamlets postcode not a Hackney one.



Im not sure what the relevance of the postcode is. For instance E1 and E2 postcodes apply to both Tower Hamlets and Hackney. Shoreditch High Street in Hackney is in E1.    

BarryB


----------



## laptop (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> ....and I think the new station is a Tower Hamlets postcode not a Hackney one.



The station entrance, on Shoreditch High Street, will be in E1 and in Hackney.

The far eastern end of the platform may graze E2 and Tower Hamlets - though looking at this





I'm not sure they won't run the platforms across the new bridge instead.


----------



## scifisam (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> The top end of Brick Lane where it meets Bethnal Green Road is about 3 minutes walk to the entrance of the of the new Shoreditch High Street Station.
> 
> I'm not arguing for a name change by the way, I actually don't mind either way.



It's not, though. My evening job is right next to the new tube station, and it would take a lot more than three minutes to walk from the tube entrance to Brick Lane. Not like half an hour or anything, but it's just not that close. And that little part of Brick Lane (which doesn't connect to the rest of Brick Lane) is nothing like the famous Brick Lane - there's nothing Bangla about it. 

I can't believe the LBTH website is actually calling the area Spitalfields and Banglatown now. I don't think it's helpful to give an area a name which specifically excludes other races (Chinatown isn't as important for that because it's almost purely commercial, not residential). Certain racists - white and Bangladeshi - will love that.


----------



## Crispy (May 21, 2008)

I checked the planning application (does this link work?) and the platforms span over Wheler Street. They don't get near that bridge at all.

Interestingly, the borough boundary doesn't follow the high street at this point, and actually kinks in, onto the goods yard site. So yes, 1/4 of the platforms are in Hackney.

Also note the absolutely perfect alignment with the central line below!


----------



## cesare (May 21, 2008)

scifisam said:


> I can't believe the LBTH website is actually calling the area Spitalfields and Banglatown now. I don't think it's helpful to give an area a name which specifically excludes other races (Chinatown isn't as important for that because it's almost purely commercial, not residential). *Certain racists - white and Bangladeshi - will love that.*



Absolutely.


----------



## ajdown (May 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Website under construction, I wonder whose it is?
> 
> http://www.banglatown.org/



Publicly available information at http://www.whois.net/whois_new.cgi?d=http://www.banglatown.org/&tld=com shows

Registrant Name: Dilowar Hussain
Registrant Organization:domain 4 sale
Registrant Street1:6 bradley house
Registrant Street2:bromley high street
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:London
Registrant State/Province:Not Applicable
Registrant Postal Code:e33ba
Registrant Country:GB
Registrant Phone:+44.07949631364

Sounds like a 'domain squatter' to me, speculative purchase in the hope that someone will pay big money for it.


----------



## laptop (May 21, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Also note the absolutely perfect alignment with the central line below!




There've been mutterings about a Central Line station there.

One reason it hasn't happened is that somewhere very close to the intersection with the new line of the ELL, the Central Line tunnels connect to the "secret cable tunnel" that was a key part of the 1951 A-bomb-proof Civil Defence works. 

This runs from the Club Row/Bethnal Green Road intersection (NE corner of your plan) West along Holborn and further.

These days it's chock full of fibre for the City...


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

scifisam said:


> It's not, though. My evening job is right next to the new tube station, and it would take a lot more than three minutes to walk from the tube entrance to Brick Lane. Not like half an hour or anything, but it's just not that close. And that little part of Brick Lane (which doesn't connect to the rest of Brick Lane) is nothing like the famous Brick Lane - there's nothing Bangla about it.


Okay my bad I was talking about the end of Bethnal green road and commercial Street where I believed the station to be going. 



> I can't believe the LBTH website is actually calling the area Spitalfields and Banglatown now. I don't think it's *helpful to give an area a name which specifically excludes other races *(Chinatown isn't as important for that because it's almost purely commercial, not residential). Certain racists - white and Bangladeshi - will love that.



Why does it exclude other races? 

I don't feel excluded by the name China Town.

The majority of people who you see down Brick Lane shopping, going to bars/cafes or having a curry are not Bangladeshi.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Certain racists - white and Bangladeshi - will love that.



Let's face it though, if it's not this they are jumping on it'll be something else.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

BarryB said:


> Im not sure what the relevance of the postcode is. For instance E1 and E2 postcodes apply to both Tower Hamlets and Hackney. Shoreditch High Street in Hackney is in E1.
> 
> BarryB



Isn't some of Shoreditch High Street in Tower Hamlets also? I thought past Hackney Road and the church is TH. I could be wrong obviously.

Not that it matters a great deal, I made a mistake about the location of the station anyway.

Still, really not fussed about the name rither way TBH, it just doesn't annoy me and I don't yet see it as an issue.


----------



## BarryB (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Isn't some of Shoreditch High Street in Tower Hamlets also? I thought past Hackney Road and the church is TH. I could be wrong obviously.
> 
> Not that it matters a great deal, I made a mistake about the location of the station anyway.
> 
> Still, really not fussed about the name rither way TBH, it just doesn't annoy me and I don't yet see it as an issue.



No all of Shoreditch High Street is in Hackney. The church is in Hackney but all of Hackney Road on the south side is in Tower Hamlets. On the north side its in Hackney from the junction of the High Street and Kingsland Road up to (and including) Hackney City Farm. From there to Cambridge Heath Road its in Tower Hamlets.

Even part of Bethnal Green Road and Commercial Street is in Hackney. 

BarryB


----------



## scifisam (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Okay my bad I was talking about the end of Bethnal green road and commercial Street where I believed the station to be going.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because it says 'this is a town for Bengalis.' I'd be put out by a place being officially renamed Polishville or WhiteBritishTon, too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Because it says *'this is a town for Bengalis*.' I'd be put out by a place being officially renamed Polishville or *WhiteBritishTon*, too.





No, not for me it doesn't at all. 

Does Chinatown make you think it is only for Chinese people? I'm sure it doesn't.

It alludes to the amount of Bengali people living in the area, it acknowledges their existence and influence there. Nothing more at all. 

....and as I've said before the majority of people who you see down Brick Lane shopping, going to bars/cafes or having a curry are not Bangladeshi.

Anyway as others have said, it would make more sense to re-name another station that is closer. But, having said that, as no particular station existed on the site before or now, it's not quite as serious as re-naming anything. It is in lots of ways a new station.

....and your empathsis of writing *WhiteBritishton* is a complete exaggeration, why bring colour into it? Britishtown wouldn't upset me either after all lots of british people live here!

No-one is suggesting the station be name _Black and BrownBanglaTown_. 

For me people are thinking too much about it, it changes nothing, it will not change your life.


----------



## JTG (May 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Mainly in the mind of the self-publicist trying to invent it.



I'm sure a ward of Tower Hamlets is named Banglatown


----------



## George & Bill (May 21, 2008)

editor said:


> By that reckoning, they could have started the exciting rebranding years ago, with the area being called Brick Lane, Huguenot-town, Irish Weavers Village, Tailor's Town, Ashkenazi Jewishville, Brewerytown  and now Banglatown, with Cityfolk Yupsville quite possibly around the corner in a decade.



err, where the hell do you think London place-names originate from, then? Out of thin air?


----------



## scifisam (May 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> No, not for me it doesn't at all.
> 
> Does Chinatown make you think it is only for Chinese people? I'm sure it doesn't.
> 
> ...



Come on, you're not seriously suggesting that Bangladeshi (the root of Banglatown) has nothing to do with race?  Britishtown would have nothing to do with race, because Britain (unlike Bangladesh) is racially diverse, but WhiteBritishton would. 

Chinatown is a commercial district mainly, which is why it's not as important. 'Banglatown' is not mainly commercial. It's fine as a nickname - I quite like it - but making it official kinda officially stamps the area as belonging to Bangladeshis, with others being just visitors. Chinatown does the same to that area, FWIW. The others there are just visitors.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Come on, you're not seriously suggesting that Bangladeshi (the root of Banglatown) has nothing to do with race?



Strangely enough sam I am, I don't care what race the people are who speak Bangla. I think of Banglatown and I am more likely to think of culture, not race, because culture transcends race for me with different races often sharing cultural practices and commonalities. Furthermore, not everyone from the same race has has the same culture. So no, race definately does not come into this for me.

Also as long as that community doesn't behave in a way that excludes anyone, I have no objection whatsoever.I will still go there as many people already do who are not from Bangladesh or speak Bangla.



> Britishtown would have nothing to do with race, because Britain (unlike Bangladesh) is racially diverse, but WhiteBritishton would.



Yeah that was my point about you bringing colour into it, but although anyone can be British lots of people are not and I don't believe they would be excluded by a place named British Town unless the community there purposefully excluded them.

No we are not in Bangladesh, but lots of Bengali people are here,  have been for a long time and will be for a long time yet. We often name roads/estates/other places after people who are not English. Really I can't see the big deal at all.

For me 'Banglatown'  means Bangla is spoken here and Bengali people live here. It acknowledges that community but need not exclude anyone.



> Chinatown is a commercial district mainly, which is why it's not as important. 'Banglatown' is not mainly commercial. It's fine as a nickname - I quite like it - but making it official kinda officially stamps the area as belonging to Bangladeshis, with others being just visitors. Chinatown does the same to that area, FWIW. The others there are just visitors.


 I'd live there if I could afford it or wanted to live in central London, wouldn't bother me one bit, unless the community purposefully made me feel I couldn't.


----------



## TopCat (May 21, 2008)

Radar said:


> Anyone remember the Surrey Dock/Quays uproar back in the late eighties ??



That war has not finished.


----------



## Crispy (May 22, 2008)

It's possible that it might get renamed back to surrey dock

http://www.docklands24.co.uk/conten...ory=znews&itemid=WeED29 Feb 2008 10:02:54:547


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## editor (May 22, 2008)

slowjoe said:


> err, where the hell do you think London place-names originate from, then? Out of thin air?


They're usually based on long-standing physical street names, commercial districts and/or area names that often date back hundreds of years, not newly-spun cultural  descriptors that may quickly become irrelevant as the demographic inevitably shifts again.


----------



## toblerone3 (May 22, 2008)

Interesting debate !!

I like the idea of districts of London being called after descriptions of what happens in them and which ethnic groups live in them. But on the other hand its open to abuse. Of course..

I am genuinely sitting on the fence on this one

One version of the derivation of the placename Shoreditch is....(according to Wikipedia).....

The etymology of 'Shoreditch' is debated. A legendary early tradition connects it with Jane Shore, the mistress of Edward IV who according to an ancient ballad died in the eponymous ditch....

But did anybody at the time say everybody's heard of Jane Shore these days (you know the King's mistress) and the fact that she died in a ditch in this area of London. But lets not start calling the area Shoreditch because in a hundred years noone will know what we talking about.


----------



## d.a.s.h (May 22, 2008)

There are a few London street names which do reflect the past presence of particular ethnic groups, eg Lombard Street and Old Jewry. Not at all sure that it is a practice worth reviving.


----------



## TopCat (May 22, 2008)

Crispy said:


> It's possible that it might get renamed back to surrey dock
> 
> http://www.docklands24.co.uk/conten...ory=znews&itemid=WeED29 Feb 2008 10:02:54:547



Many have never called the docks anything else. 

It was vaguely amusing for a while to watch the deptford lads waylaying folk looking for the _Quays._ But then again I may just be a sickko.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> Not at all sure that it is a practice worth reviving.



Why not? 

Places have to be called something and reflecting something about a particular area is better than something random isn't it?

Place naming like that connects people and practices to areas, they reflect everyday life and acknowledge past and present.


----------



## Lisarocket (May 22, 2008)

Slightly off topic, but i've been wondering for a while now that Arsenal have moved grounds, whether the Aresnal tube is going to revert back to being called Gillespie Road 

That would mean that Holloway Road (or Drayton Park) should now be called Arsenal if you agree with 'them' naming tube stations after the local football ground...


----------



## editor (May 22, 2008)

toblerone3 said:


> But did anybody at the time say everybody's heard of Jane Shore these days (you know the King's mistress) and the fact that she died in a ditch in this area of London. But lets not start calling the area Shoreditch because in a hundred years noone will know what we talking about.


Except there's this bit too:


> However as the place is attested as 'Soersditch', long before this, a more plausible suggestion is 'Sewer Ditch', in reference to an ancient drain or watercourse in what was a boggy area adjacent to the 'fens' of Finsbury/Fensbury to the west. Possibly it refers to the headwaters of the river Walbrook which rose in the Curtain Road area.


But the point is that it has been known as Shoreditch for centuries - since ancient times by all accounts -  and the name stuck as the area developed from nothing. 

Applying a new makey uppey new 'cultural' name to an area already established and named and with a (comparatively) fast-changing demographic seems utterly daft. If Banglatown was a new area being developed from scratch then that makes _some_ sense at least.


----------



## innit (May 22, 2008)

Lisarocket said:


> Slightly off topic, but i've been wondering for a while now that Arsenal have moved grounds, whether the Aresnal tube is going to revert back to being called Gillespie Road
> 
> That would mean that Holloway Road (or Drayton Park) should now be called Arsenal if you agree with 'them' naming tube stations after the local football ground...



Arsenal tube is still very near Emirates, it's only a couple of minutes walk.


----------



## d.a.s.h (May 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Why not?



Because it formalises the existence of an ethnic enclave and makes it seem more exclusive than it really is.

I can appreciate that there may be several different motives for this demand. On behalf of the councillor mentioned in the OP, perhaps there is a sense of filial duty to a father who claims to have first coined the expression 'Bangla Town' (assuming the councillor is who I think he is). 

On behalf of those Brick Lane businessmen who may also be involved, a desire to establish Banglatown as a recognised brand name which will draw in more visitors and custom, like Chinatown does.

Perhaps more widely, a desire on the part of many Bangladeshis to show that they've arrived in their own right, and that they're not just poor cousins to Indians. (This sense may have formed part of the hostile reaction to the proposed filming of Monica Ali's _Brick Lane_.)

But I still think it's an unwise move.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> On behalf of those Brick Lane businessmen who may also be involved, a desire to establish Banglatown as a recognised brand name which will draw in more visitors and custom, like Chinatown does.


Notably, there's not a 'Chinatown' tube station either.


----------



## d.a.s.h (May 22, 2008)

editor said:


> Notably, there's not a 'Chinatown' tube station either.



Indeed, and a consortium of Chinese businessmen probably wouldn't have much luck trying to rename Leicester Square tube station, because there is a lot more to the area surrounding it than Chinese-run shops and restaurants.

Ditto for Shoreditch High Street tube station. It's better to stick to a local geographical reference, as nearly all tube station names do.


----------



## chico enrico (May 22, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> Ditto for Shoreditch High Street tube station. It's better to stick to a local geographical reference, as nearly all tube station names do.




so where's the COCK in _COCKfosters_?


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

editor said:


> Notably, there's not a 'Chinatown' tube station either.





> Indeed, and a consortium of Chinese businessmen probably wouldn't have much luck trying to rename Leicester Square tube station, because there is a lot more to the area surrounding it than Chinese-run shops and restaurants.


Regarding the above....I posted this earlier...





> Anyway as others have said, it would make more sense to re-name another station that is closer. But, having said that, *as no particular station existed on the site before or now, it's not quite as serious as re-naming anything. It is in lots of ways a new station.*



Equally I don't think you can compare Leceister Square and Picadilly Circus with Shoreditch High Street.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> Ditto for Shoreditch High Street tube station. It's better to stick to a local geographical reference, as nearly all tube station names do.



So apart from us, which local people do you imagine know about Jand Shore, the sewer or the ditch?


----------



## editor (May 22, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> so where's the COCK in _COCKfosters_?





> The name has been recorded as far back as 1524, and is thought to be either the name of a family, or that of a house which stood on Enfield Chase. One suggestion is that it was "the residence of the cock forester (or chief forester)".[1]


HTH!


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

editor said:


> HTH!





> The name has been recorded as far back as 1524, and is thought to be either the name of a family, or that of a house which *stood *on Enfield Chase. One suggestion is that it *was* "the residence of the cock forester (or chief forester)".[1]



No longer a local icon or a landmark then?


----------



## d.a.s.h (May 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> So apart from us, which local people do you imagine know about Jand Shore, the sewer or the ditch?



It doesn't really matter. Everyone who lives and works in the area will know where Shoreditch High Street is. Everyone can walk along it. It cannot reasonably be seen as the exclusive property of one ethnic group or another. 

That's why it's a better choice of name than Banglatown, IMO.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> No longer a local icon or a landmark then?


The bit you're missing is that _there was nothing there before_.


----------



## TopCat (May 22, 2008)

I don't feel comfortable in any ghettoised area and I think renaming the tube banglatown will contuinue the process of polarisation.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

editor said:


> The bit you're missing is that _there was nothing there before_.



No, I didn't miss it you didn't say that. You are telling me now.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> No, I didn't miss it you didn't say that. You are telling me now.


I think I did make that general point, you know:



			
				editor said:
			
		

> But the point is that it has been known as Shoreditch for centuries - since ancient times by all accounts - and the name stuck as the area developed from nothing.
> 
> Applying a new makey uppey new 'cultural' name to an area already established and named and with a (comparatively) fast-changing demographic seems utterly daft.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

d.a.s.h said:


> It cannot reasonably be seen as the exclusive property of one ethnic group or another.


Exclusive property, steady on!

I don't think _anyone_ feels like that in Brick Lane or the surrounding areas and I don't believe a station name would be enough to make them feel that either.

As I've said before that would only happen if people were made to feel unwelcome or treated badly. Which doesn't happen now so why would it start because of the naming of a station.

I think people are worrying unnecessarily and imaginging the worse case scenario.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

editor said:


> I think I did make that general point, you know:



You made the point about Shoreditch I quoted you regarding Cockfosters.




			
				editor said:
			
		

> The name has been recorded as far back as 1524, and is thought to be either the name of a family, or that of a house which stood on Enfield Chase. One suggestion is that it was "the residence of the cock forester (or chief forester)".[1]


----------



## Wolfie Smith (May 22, 2008)

Let's not forget that the name 'Banglatown' is a marketing device dreamed up by the restaurant owners down Brick Lane in a rather pathetic attempt to emulate Chinatown.   This is a really terrible idea.


----------



## toblerone3 (May 22, 2008)

Stokey said:


> Let's not forget that the name 'Banglatown' is a marketing device dreamed up by the restaurant owners down Brick Lane in a rather pathetic attempt to emulate Chinatown.   This is a really terrible idea.



Why is it a "rather pathetic attempt"?  What's wrong with emulating Chinatown?

On the point about areas being named after transitory things...

The area of Kings Cross is named after a momument which only lasted 15 years (1830-1845). It was also a marketing gimic of the late Georgian era. But it stuck...

The naming of an area is an incredibly powerful act.

Why should that power necessarily be left in the hands of the rich and powerful developers of greenfield sites. Areas and streets do get renamed occasionally and when that does happen why should the initial decisions of developers not be revisited.

If people in an area want a new name or a new brand why not encourage that. Thats if they want it.

It was interesting to read BarryB's (a local Ward Councillor) posts on this thread about the different areas of the proposed Banglatown being completely different areas. I don't know the micro-politics of the area but I'm not completely convinced by his/her arguements which seemed to revolve about rather arbitrary Borough boundaries between Hackney and Tower Hamlets rather than the real nature of the area.


----------



## Wolfie Smith (May 22, 2008)

No-one actually calls the area Banglatown do they?  

The station isn't actually in 'Banglatown' anyway.  That starts South of the Truman Brewery.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2008)

toblerone3 said:


> Why should that power necessarily be left in the hands of the rich and powerful developers of greenfield sites.


Or indeed, self publicising commercial interests.

It's hardly _The People_ crying out en masse for this Banglatown name, is it?


----------



## BarryB (May 22, 2008)

toblerone3 said:


> Why is it a "rather pathetic attempt"?  What's wrong with emulating Chinatown?
> 
> On the point about areas being named after transitory things...
> 
> ...



The streets in Hackney around what will be Shoreditch High Street station are lived in by mainly white middle class young people living in loft conversions or flats above shops. There is no large Bangladeshi population. Ive never met anyone who has asked for the name of the station to be changed.

The area will drastically change if planning applications for a 51 storey building plus other blocks go through nearby. There will be thousands more office workers in the area and presumably an explosion of new bars and restaurants to cater for the workers.

BarryB


----------



## toblerone3 (May 22, 2008)

BarryB said:


> The streets in Hackney around what will be Shoreditch High Street station are lived in by mainly white middle class young people living in loft conversions or flats above shops. There is no large Bangladeshi population. Ive never met anyone who has asked for the name of the station to be changed.
> 
> The area will drastically change if planning applications for a 51 storey building plus other blocks go through nearby. There will be thousands more office workers in the area and presumably an explosion of new bars and restaurants to cater for the workers.
> 
> BarryB



I don't understand.  Why is the proposal to brand an area of London 'Banglatown' not focused around the area where there is an large existing Bangladeshi population. 

I note that the suggesiton was for the naming (or renaming) of a tube station rather than an area of London. But I suppose tube stations do carry a rather iconic status and can eventually cause an area to become known by a certain name.

What are those opposed to the renaming suggesting is the hidden agenda here. Or is it not linked properly to any idea just a random idea that has not been thought out properly?


----------



## scifisam (May 22, 2008)

toblerone3 said:


> I don't understand.  Why is the proposal to brand an area of London 'Banglatown' not focused around the area where there is an large existing Bangladeshi population.



Because it's a new station, I guess. BarryB's right about the people living in the area around that station - it's very different to 'Banglatown.' 

Banglatown is just a nickname for part of Brick Lane and a couple of small streets branching off it. That's one of the reasons I'm shocked to see it on the Tower Hamlets website - it's far too small an 'area' to merit that. 



> I note that the suggesiton was for the naming (or renaming) of a tube station rather than an area of London. But I suppose tube stations do carry a rather iconic status and can eventually cause an area to become known by a certain name.
> 
> What are those opposed to the renaming suggesting is the hidden agenda here. Or is it not linked properly to any idea just a random idea that has not been thought out properly?



It's just a random idea, most likely.


----------



## Wolfie Smith (May 22, 2008)

BarryB said:


> if planning applications for a 51 storey building plus other blocks go through nearby.
> BarryB



Let's hope not eh?  

If the station had been at the Eastern end of the old goodsyard then clearly it should have been called 'Brick Lane'.  Given that it is at the Western end then 'Shoreditch High Street' seems fair enough to me - it will be on Shoreditch High Street after all.  In 10 years time that particular area will be unrecognisable from what it is today and the Banglatown name would be even more absurd.  

I am alone in thinking that renaming an area of London after the racial make-up of the people that live there is somehow faintly sinisister?


----------



## toblerone3 (May 22, 2008)

Stokey said:


> I am alone in thinking that renaming an area of London after the racial make-up of the people that live there is somehow faintly sinisister?



Yes its potentially much more than faintly sinister. Could be disastrous. But then on the other hand it could be a great idea giving an area a stronger positive identity. It depends on the way its handled and the way that people respond and the type of society it takes place in. 

Context is everything.


----------



## laptop (May 22, 2008)

BarryB said:


> The area will drastically change...



...because there's a station.

Remains to be seen whether it changes as much as if it'd been a Tube station. 

I'm not sure those planners who fail to see the difference between "urban renewal" and "property speculation" have thought through the implications of the East London Line not being a tube line. As it is planned, it'll be an extension of the Magic Railway... full of hoodies... wouldn't go on that, Tristram, would you?



BarryB said:


> if planning applications for a 51 storey building plus other blocks go through nearby.



Does this not already have planning permission?


----------



## Crispy (May 22, 2008)

Not sure if it does. The site includes The Light bar and there's vigorous opposition. Let me trawl through Hackney website...

Nope, no record of it. This is the site:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&h...2182,-0.078524&spn=0.002343,0.004351&t=h&z=18
Between the high street, plough yard and worship street. The railway arches have already been demolished, and the hole to the railway has been filled over with a concrete slab.


----------



## Crispy (May 22, 2008)

Ooop - Found the planning record. No decision yet. It's a monster scheme, though.

Thread here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=431133


----------



## PacificOcean (May 22, 2008)

The station will be a litteral two minute walk from the Liverpool Steet - the busiest turmuni (sp?) in the UK.

How can the area develop any further, regardless of what you call it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2008)

Stokey said:


> I am alone in thinking that renaming an area of London after the racial make-up of the people that live there is somehow faintly sinisister?



Sinister? Are you quite sure that is the right adjective?  Do you think they are coming to get you? 

BTW, Bangla is a language not a race. 

So, the name isn't racially significant, unless that is you have a problem with the race that speak Bangla.


----------



## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Sinister? Are you quite sure that is the right adjective?  Do you think they are coming to get you?
> 
> BTW, Bangla is a language not a race.
> 
> So, the name isn't racially significant, unless that is you have a problem with the race that speak Bangla.



Bangla refers to Bangladesh. The language is usually referred to as Bengali. So 'Banglatown' is connected to a race.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

PacificOcean said:


> The station will be a litteral two minute walk from the Liverpool Steet - the busiest turmuni (sp?) in the UK.
> 
> How can the area develop any further, regardless of what you call it.



You must be a really fast walker! 

It is really close, though. I guess it might help cut down the crush at Liverpool St.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Bangla refers to Bangladesh. The language is usually referred to as Bengali. So 'Banglatown' is connected to a race.


Really?   I had this conversation recently with some Bengali students of mine. They told me that Bangladesh is the country, Bangla is the language and they are Bengali people. I shall correct them tomorrow of course!

The question may be commonly referred as 'Bengali' by who?

Bangla= different race?
Connected to race how? Because people from Bangladesh are not English and therefore not European?


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> You must be a really fast walker!
> 
> It is really close, though. I guess it might help cut down the crush at Liverpool St.



To be honest looking at that map again I could be in Brick lane in t-minus 4 minutes.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Really?   I had this conversation recently with some Bengali students of mine. They told me that Bangladesh is thecountry, Bangla is the language and they are Bengali people. I shall correct them tomorrow of course!
> 
> Bangla= different race?
> Connected to race how? Because people from Bangladesh are not English and therefore not European?



And my students told me the language was Bengali or Bangladeshi.  

The area's clearly named after the country, though. Why would you think it was named after a language? Areas sometimes get named/nicknamed after people or areas, but not after languages.

And yes, Bangladeshi is connected to race. Unless you're claiming that Bangladeshi people are equally likely to be of African or European heritage as South Asian.


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## cesare (May 23, 2008)

Bengali and Bangla are interchangeable terms for the national/official language of Bangladesh.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> And my students told me the language was Bengali or Bangladeshi.
> 
> The area's clearly named after the country, though. Why would you think it was named after a language? Areas sometimes get named/nicknamed after people or areas, but not after languages.


 Please see my edit. My question was commonly referred to by who? How old are your students? Mine are all over 25 and born in Bangladesh. This may be a clue to why they have a different 'common' name for the language they speak.



> And yes, Bangladeshi is connected to race.


No Sam, for me it is connected to a country.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Unless you're claiming that Bangladeshi people are equally likely to be of African or European heritage as South Asian.



And I claimed that when exactly?

Why is race so important here? I don't get it.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> To be honest looking at that map again I could be in Brick lane in t-minus 4 minutes.



You could get to the top end of Brick Lane in about 8, probably. Possibly less at 3am with no traffic. But the top end of Brick Lane is of a completely different character to the famous lower end.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> You could get to the top end of Brick Lane in about 8, probably. Possibly less at 3am with no traffic. But the top end of Brick Lane is of a completely different character to the famous lower end.



TBF I am told I walk fast. 
Famous lower end? Why? 
Because all the restaurants are down the lower end? For me it's one street from the bagel shop down to the end, it's Brick Lane. regardless what's at the top or the bottom.


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## cesare (May 23, 2008)

The Bengali/Bangla language issue is important for Bangladeshis. If anyone's interested google 'Bengali (or Bangla) Language Movement'.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> The Bengali/Bangla language issue is important for Bangladeshis. If anyone's interested google 'Bengali (or Bangla) Language Movement'.



Will do Cesare. 
What did you find?


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Please see my edit. My question was commonly referred to by who? How old are your students? Mine are all over 25 and born in Bangladesh. This may be a clue to why they have a different 'common' name for the language they speak.



Mine are all in their twenties and born in Bangladesh too. 



> No Sam, for me it is connected to a country.



But, unless you reckon that said country has a diverse racial population (hence my comment that you quoted after this one), then it is connected to race too. 

It's important (well, a bit, not a lot) because, like I said before, it excludes those are not Bengali. I honestly don't understand why you disagree with that - it's so obvious to me. 

Like when George Galloway repeatedly referred to Bethnal Green as a 'Muslim area.' It made me feel like I, a non-Muslim in Bethnal Green, suddenly didn't exist, or at best, didn't matter. If I lived near Shoreditch station and the area was officially renamed after a race which is not mine, I'd feel extremely unwelcome, as if that place was not supposed to be for me, despite the fact that I already lived there. 

To use one of KeyboardJockey's favourite words, renaming an area to mark it out as belonging to one particular race or ethnic group would be extremely divisive.


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## cesare (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Will do Cesare.
> What did you find?



There's loads and loads, tis an aspect of the culture. Never thought to even mention it till you and sam started talking about language v race tbh

Here's a wiki link and it seems quite even handed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_Language_Movement

21 Feb, Language Movement Day. Martyrs of the language movement etc. 

In a nutshell, it revolves around muslim v hindu identity and hence bangla v urdu official language. Quite a struggle one way and another. You gotta put it in context of the India/Pakistan/Bangladesh historical tensions.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> TBF I am told I walk fast.
> Famous lower end? Why?
> Because all the restaurants are down the lower end? For me it's one street from the bagel shop down to the end, it's Brick Lane. regardless what's at the top or the bottom.



The top end is separated from the rest by a big road and a curve, with the roads not being directly opposite each other; when you've walked down the length of Brick Lane you probably missed the top end out completely. It's small, ordinary council housing in that part, and it's very quiet; about as different to the famous Brick Lane as can be. 

BTW, I walk fast too. I work next to the new station and walk home from there; it would only be four minutes at 3am with no traffic, though at that time you might be handicapped by being drunk of course. 

@cesare - yeah, when I asked my students, the way they responded told me that it might be a more complicated answer than I'd expected.  The area's nickname is extremely unlikely to be because of the language, though. It's the Bangla in Bangladesh.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Mine are all in their twenties and born in Bangladesh too.
> 
> 
> 
> But, unless you reckon that said country has a diverse racial population (hence my comment that you quoted after this one), then it is connected to race too.


 I don't claim that because it isn't AFAIK , but more importantly I don't care.



> It's important (well, a bit, not a lot) because, like I said before, it excludes those are not Bengali. I honestly don't understand why you disagree with that - it's so obvious to me.


Maybe because you feel the name excludes you? 



> Like when George Galloway repeatedly referred to Bethnal Green as a 'Muslim area.' It made me feel like I, a non-Muslim in Bethnal Green, suddenly didn't exist, or at best, didn't matter. If I lived near Shoreditch station and the area was officially renamed after a *race* which is not mine, I'd feel extremely unwelcome, as if that place was not supposed to be for me, despite the fact that I already lived there.


I just don't feel excluded by names Sam. I feel excluded by other people's behaviour and have never felt excluded by the behaviour of Bengali people in that area. In my life, they have alway been there, always been a part of the diverse communities that I experience and one of the communities that I have always interacted with.



> To use one of KeyboardJockey's favourite words, renaming an area to mark it out as *belonging* to one particular race or ethnic group would be extremely divisive.


I just don't feel the 'ownership' thing.

A name has never stopped me from going to an area, especially one I know well, like, and have been going to since I was ohhhhhhhhhh too long.

Anyway sweet, bedtime for me.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> BTW, I walk fast too. I work next to the new station and walk home from there; it would only be four minutes at 3am with no traffic, though at that time you might be handicapped by being drunk of course.


Drunk? Whats that feel like?  
3am? What the hell are you doing out at that time? 
I have no idea.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> tc.
> 
> In a nutshell, it revolves around muslim v hindu identity and hence bangla v urdu official language. Quite a struggle one way and another. You gotta put it in context of the India/Pakistan/Bangladesh historical tensions.



Thanks Cesare, I had a feeling it would be complicated and am not surprised that has politics at the heart of it.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't claim that because it isn't AFAIK , but more importantly I don't care.
> 
> Maybe because you feel the name excludes you?
> 
> ...



I think you may be unusual in not feeling excluded by an area being renamed, to be honest. Renaming is about ownership to a great extent - not just in this case, but in other place names. Witness the change of names under British Colonial rule, and then the way they got changed again after independence. 

A name wouldn't stop me _visiting_ an area either, but it would be a factor in whether I felt welcome as a resident. 

Not sure why the pleasant behaviour of Bangladeshi people in that area is relevant, actually (though that's been my experience too, FWIW).


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## cesare (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> @cesare - yeah, when I asked my students, the way they responded told me that it might be a more complicated answer than I'd expected.  The area's nickname is extremely unlikely to be because of the language, though. It's the Bangla in Bangladesh.




Here's another link which kind of explains it more simply than the wiki entry:

http://www.betelco.com/bd/bangla/bangla.html Again, looks quite even handed but who can say really. Interesting though.

'Bangla' ties in both language and name of country. I get the impression that the two are intertwined in terms of national identity and therefore 'Banglatown' would carry more significance than 'Bengaltown' (for example). But I'm just speculating tbh.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> Here's another link which kind of explains it more simply than the wiki entry:
> 
> http://www.betelco.com/bd/bangla/bangla.html Again, looks quite even handed but who can say really. Interesting though.
> 
> 'Bangla' ties in both language and name of country. I get the impression that the two are intertwined in terms of national identity and therefore 'Banglatown' would carry more significance than 'Bengaltown' (for example). But I'm just speculating tbh.



It's OK, I can handle the really complicated wiki entry. Thanks anyway. 

Banglatown also sounds much better, of course. Bengaltown would be confusing anyway, since there are parts of Bengal that are in India.


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## cesare (May 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Thanks Cesare, I had a feeling it would be complicated and am not surprised that has politics at the heart of it.



NP 

Just adding a disclaimer that it's a bit of general stuff and I'm by no means stating anything as fact, I'm really not in a position to know. Just been in and around this place since the 70s and you pick up snippets along the way iyswim.


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## cesare (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> It's OK, I can handle the really complicated wiki entry. Thanks anyway.
> 
> Banglatown also sounds much better, of course. Bengaltown would be confusing anyway, since there are parts of Bengal that are in India.



I wasn't implying you couldn't! (Not intentionally anyway, didn't mean to give offence, so apols if it came across that way). It was just one of those things I was aware of but not in a hugely informed way, so I had a wee search for a link that was a bit more explanatory/simple for anyone reading the thread that was interested iyswim.

I'm still not hugely attached to the outcome of this naming thing, but hopefully the Bangladeshi community will support further name changes as the next wave of immigrant people come to the East End.


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## BarryB (May 23, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Ooop - Found the planning record. No decision yet. It's a monster scheme, though.
> 
> Thread here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=431133



Not sure of date its coming to Planning sub committee. Could be Wednesday 4 June.

BarryB


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## d.a.s.h (May 23, 2008)

Stokey said:


> Let's not forget that the name 'Banglatown' is a marketing device dreamed up by the restaurant owners down Brick Lane in a rather pathetic attempt to emulate Chinatown.   This is a really terrible idea.



I don't have a problem with restaurant owners wanting to promote a 'Banglatown' brand name covering Brick Lane and adjoining streets. But it's not a good idea and doesn't make much sense if applied to a tube station. 

Imagine drawing a circle around the tube station with a diameter of, say, half a mile - a distance most people can walk in around 10-15 minutes and which you could argue forms the station's catchment area. 'Banglatown' would only form a small part of that circle's area.


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## Xanadu (May 23, 2008)

Is this thread as dull as the title suggests?


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## innit (May 23, 2008)

Xanadu said:


> Is this thread as dull as the title suggests?



Unless you're interested in debating which end of different roads are in which boroughs, and whether calling an area Banglatown would make other groups feel "excluded" (ffs  )

Yes


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

innit said:


> Unless you're interested in debating which end of different roads are in which boroughs, and whether calling an area Banglatown would make other groups feel "excluded" (ffs  )
> 
> Yes



Because, of course, it's ridiculous to suggest that renaming an area after one particular group of people would ever have any effect on the other groups of people living in that area. Yup, no way that could happen at all. Renaming areas is never problematic anywhere in the world. Right.


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## innit (May 23, 2008)

scifisam said:


> Because, of course, it's ridiculous to suggest that renaming an area after one particular group of people would ever have any effect on the other groups of people living in that area. Yup, no way that could happen at all. Renaming areas is never problematic anywhere in the world. Right.



But this isn't anywhere else in the world, it's London, and it's the name of a tube station, not a borough.  Do you think the Banglatown banners in Brick Lane make other people feel unwelcome?


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## editor (May 23, 2008)

I don't think the name would make anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I just think it's a really shit idea.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

innit said:


> But this isn't anywhere else in the world, it's London, and it's the name of a tube station, not a borough.  Do you think the Banglatown banners in Brick Lane make other people feel unwelcome?



Why would London be free of the problems that dog other places in the world when they change names? 

Like someone else said, tube station names do tend to change what people call the area around it. It also turns out that the LBTH website has decided that Banglatown _is_ an official name for that little part of that little area. Like I've said a few times, nicknames, and the banners, don't bother me at all - they're for the tourists, anyway, and it's just a bit of fun - but making it official does, a bit.


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## chico enrico (May 23, 2008)

editor said:


> I don't think the name would make anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I just think it's a really shit idea.



Yea. It's just crap. kinda like renaming Camden Town "Euro Goth and lump of licqorice in clingfilm Town".

Anyway, 'Bangla' is surely more associated with the film and music industry? I never see groups of guys with 'Vanilla Ice' flat-tops and gold lame shell-suits doing formation dances like i'd walked onto the set of a Bengali _Kids From Fame _whenever I go down there.


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

You know, thinking about it more, I don't really understand _why_ the LBTH website is acting as though there's an actual area called Banglatown. It's a name coined thirty years ago by a businessman and nobody uses it to describe the area; my GF had never heard the term and we live about fifteen minutes' walk from Brick Lane. And how can a council unilaterally decide to rename an area so easily? It just makes no sense. 

Not that I'm suggesting any sinister motives behind it (I don't think there's any _intention_ to make people feel excluded), but it is still weird.


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## jæd (May 23, 2008)

innit said:


> But this isn't anywhere else in the world, it's London, and it's the name of a tube station, not a borough.  Do you think the Banglatown banners in Brick Lane make other people feel unwelcome?



But Shoreditch High St Tube is nowhere near Brick Lane. (But then the proposed Shoreditch High St tube is only just on Shoreditch High Street... It would better be called "Bethnel Green Road" tube station.  )


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## BarryB (May 23, 2008)

jæd said:


> But Shoreditch High St Tube is nowhere near Brick Lane. (But then the proposed Shoreditch High St tube is only just on Shoreditch High Street... It would better be called "Bethnel Green Road" tube station.  )



Trouble is there are already two Bethnal Green stations. One being the central Line tube at the far end of Bethnal Green Road and Bethnal Green overground station off Bethnal Green Road.

BarryB


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## scifisam (May 23, 2008)

If it weren't for the cost involved in a name change, maybe there should simply be a competition to rename the tube. Have people send in suggestions, pick five out of a hat and then have a vote for them. Famous people could do a vox pop arguing for the name of their preference. Then we'd probably end up with it being called JadeGoody Station, but it would at least be democratic!


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## Xanadu (May 23, 2008)

editor said:


> I don't think the name would make anyone feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I just think it's a really shit idea.



'snot like it would happen anyway.  It's a shit idea, dreamt up by someone who's probably trying to fuel up the "It's-PC-gone-mad" crowd.


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## paolo (May 23, 2008)

It's a shit idea because it's not what the area is usually referred to.

Google:

Shoreditch: 22 million
Banglatown: 22 thousand.

Station names aren't meant to be marketing devices.


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## jæd (May 23, 2008)

BarryB said:


> Trouble is there are already two Bethnal Green stations. One being the central Line tube at the far end of Bethnal Green Road and Bethnal Green overground station off Bethnal Green Road.



Then make it : Bethnel Green Road East.


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## paolo (May 23, 2008)

jæd said:


> Then make it : Bethnel Green Road East.



Or even add the Postcode.


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## BarryB (May 23, 2008)

jæd said:


> Then make it : Bethnel Green Road East.



Why confuse people? Shoreditch High Street is a perfectly good name.

BarryB


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## Wolfie Smith (May 23, 2008)

jæd said:


> Then make it : Bethnel Green Road East.



Quaker Street has got a nice ring to it.


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## jæd (May 23, 2008)

BarryB said:


> Why confuse people? Shoreditch High Street is a perfectly good name.



But its not on Shoreditch High Street...


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## BarryB (May 23, 2008)

jæd said:


> But its not on Shoreditch High Street...



The entrance will be in Shoreditch High Street.

BarryB


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## lighterthief (May 23, 2008)

What a lot of barmy nonsense.  Call it Shoreditch High Street and be done with it.

*shakes fist*


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## jæd (May 24, 2008)

BarryB said:


> The entrance will be in Shoreditch High Street.
> 
> BarryB



But (as I pointed out a few posts back), the majority of the station fronts onto Bethnal Green Road...


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## PacificOcean (May 24, 2008)

There is already a Bethnal Green on the Central Line though.

Bethnal Green Road will just confuse people.

I use to use Wandsworth Road station and met a fair few people thinking it was in Wandsworth itself and having to tell them they were about three miles adrift and needed to take a 77.


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## jæd (May 24, 2008)

PacificOcean said:


> There is already a Bethnal Green on the Central Line though.
> 
> Bethnal Green Road will just confuse people.
> 
> I use to use Wandsworth Road station and met a fair few people thinking it was in Wandsworth itself and having to tell them they were about three miles adrift and needed to take a 77.



We've done this bit before : http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7535791&postcount=185


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## toblerone3 (May 24, 2008)

PacificOcean said:


> There is already a Bethnal Green on the Central Line though.
> 
> Bethnal Green Road will just confuse people.
> 
> I use to use Wandsworth Road station and met a fair few people thinking it was in Wandsworth itself and having to tell them they were about three miles adrift and needed to take a 77.



Yeh and Finchley Road station is nowhere near Finchley.


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