# French Students murdered in New Cross



## Melinda (Jul 3, 2008)

I woke up to the news that the last Sunday's 'suspicious' fire at a house in New Cross in which 2 people died, has turned out to be murder.  


> The bodies of two men found after a fire in a flat had stab wounds to the head, neck and chest, the Metropolitan Police have revealed.
> 
> The murdered men are believed to be French exchange students in their 20s, but have not been formally identified.
> The bodies were found in a ground floor flat in Sterling Gardens, New Cross, south-east London, on Sunday night.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7486628.stm


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## Melinda (Jul 3, 2008)

Looking around, there seems to have been a number of murders in South London in the last few days. 

A man got killed in Milford Towers in Catford that estate above Tescos in Catford Mews. Someone has been arrested for that one. 

Maybe its the heat or something.


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## dynamicbaddog (Jul 3, 2008)

Melinda said:


> I woke up to the news that the last Sunday's 'suspicious' fire at a house in New Cross in which 2 people died, has turned out to be murder.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7486628.stm



 This is quite near to where I live, when I walked past Sterling Gdns on Monday evening there were loads of police and the area was closed off , I thought it was just a house fire until I heard about what happened on the radio this morning, it sounds really horrific


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## JHE (Jul 3, 2008)

According to a news report on the radio, one of the murdered frenchmen was stabbed in the chest about 200 times!

Grim, grim stuff.

I'm very curious to know what this was all about.  Personal stuff or the work of a 'random' homocidal maniac?


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## Roadkill (Jul 3, 2008)

Very nasty business indeed, if the news reports I've seen are to be believed.  One police source is quoted as saying that it was like something out of a Tarantino film - a 'frenzied' attack, multiple stab wounds, and then an attempt to burn the house down to hide the evidence.  

Ugh


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## monsterbunny (Jul 3, 2008)

This is a really gruesome story.  I'm also curious as to the motive for this madness.


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## Sunspots (Jul 3, 2008)

BBC said:
			
		

> They had suffered a total of 243 stab wounds to the head, neck and chest before being set alight.
> 
> ...
> 
> Mr Bonomo had 196 stab wounds, including 100 to his back, and Mr Ferez had been stabbed 47 times.



Horrific.  This is so fucking grim.


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## Melinda (Jul 3, 2008)

That is horrifying. Nightmarish even. What a way to die- their poor families.  And the neighbours' homes could have gone up too. 

Cant be random, passer-by shit this time. WTF gets you killed in such a manner? 

DBD- is the street still taped off?


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## Gingerman (Jul 3, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Looking around, there seems to have been a number of murders in South London in the last few days.
> 
> A man got killed in Milford Towers in Catford that estate above Tescos in Catford Mews. Someone has been arrested for that one.
> 
> Maybe its the heat or something.


Some chap was stabbed to death in the Old Kent Road on Mon Night as well
Sterling Grds is not far from where I live,depressing stuff.


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## goldenecitrone (Jul 4, 2008)

the perpetrator must have been covered in blood. Can't believe nobody heard nor saw anything. And where's the surveillance society when you need it? Hope the psychopath gets caught soon.


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## ddraig (Jul 4, 2008)

goldenecitrone said:


> the perpetrator must have been covered in blood. Can't believe nobody heard nor saw anything. And where's the surveillance society when you need it? Hope the psychopath gets caught soon.



^^^
this

i was thinking drugs, burglary gone badly wrong or just proper psycho's???


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## ddraig (Jul 4, 2008)

also that one in Thornton Heath
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7489039.stm

wtf!!

it's always well busy around there 



			
				bbc said:
			
		

> 'Senseless incident'
> 
> Dee Bamina, 35, tried to stem the bleeding from a wound to his chest with a bath towel after another neighbour brought him into the communal doorway of her block of flats.
> 
> ...


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## Griff (Jul 4, 2008)

This really is horrific. There must be CCTV footage of someone released soon. 

Very odd and nasty.


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## dynamicbaddog (Jul 4, 2008)

Melinda said:


> DBD- is the street still taped off?


it's not taped off anymore, but there were lots of press hanging about when I rode past there today - a big van with loads of satellite dishes on the roof, seeing that reminded me of when that Polish woman got shot last September (that was just round the corner from Sterling Gdns)


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## Melinda (Jul 4, 2008)

dynamicbaddog said:


> it's not taped off anymore, but there were lots of press hanging about when I rode past there today - a big van with loads of satellite dishes on the roof, seeing that reminded me of when that Polish woman got shot last September (that was just round the corner from Sterling Gdns)


I was thinking about that- how the fuck does that affect the local community? What is the cumulative effect of 3 murders on a small area?  People are going to want to move. 

You cant engage with people who have so little respect for life.


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## Dan U (Jul 4, 2008)

> She said the boy was saying "I don't want to die" and "where's my mum, I want my mum".





that's the saddest thing i've read in ages.


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## Belushi (Jul 4, 2008)

My brothers a witness of one of the recent high profile murders, he stopped the bleeding of one of the kids stabbed for over half an hour until the ambulance arrived, all the time getting the kid to say Jack and Jill Went Up the Hill so he wouldnt slip into unconciousness. 

I think he found it a pretty traumatic experience to be honest.

edit to say the kid my brother cradled didnt die fortunately


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## cesare (Jul 4, 2008)

Belushi said:


> My brothers a witness of one of the recent high profile murders, he stopped the bleeding for over half an hour until the ambulance arrived, all the time getting the kid to say Jack and Jill Went Up the Hill so he wouldnt slip into unconciousness.
> 
> I think he found it a pretty traumatic experience to be honest.



He must be in shock himself after that  Well done him though, trying to save the kid  That's a hell of a long time to try and keep someone hanging on whilst trying to stem the bleeding.


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## Dan U (Jul 5, 2008)

they've arrested someone apparently

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7491122.stm

very early days obviously


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## Maggot (Jul 5, 2008)

monsterbunny said:


> This is a really gruesome story.  I'm also curious as to the motive for this madness.


 Same here. It's really shocking.

The police are saying some stuff was stolen, PlayStation consoles and other things, but surely burglars don't need to go to such extreme lengths just to steal stuff?


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## Chairman Meow (Jul 5, 2008)

Dan U said:


> that's the saddest thing i've read in ages.



Isn't it just.

The poor kid.


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## twistedAM (Jul 5, 2008)

Maggot said:


> Same here. It's really shocking.
> 
> The police are saying some stuff was stolen, PlayStation consoles and other things, but surely burglars don't need to go to such extreme lengths just to steal stuff?



Read somewhere today that they  extracted PIN numbers from them and then used the cards. Dunno if that's true but nearly every cashpoint has some kind of CCTV even if it's one of those LINK jobs in a convenience store. Might well be how they caught the guy.


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## Dravinian (Jul 5, 2008)

They are debating whether it was 1 or more killers...

Are they seriously considering that one person inflicted roughly 250 stab wounds?

Just think about that for a moment, repeating the same task 125 times, if you switched arms, you would barely be able to move your arms afterwards.

This has to be a group attack surely, one person couldn't have done that.


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## Gingerman (Jul 5, 2008)

Melinda said:


> I was thinking about that- how the fuck does that affect the local community? What is the cumulative effect of 3 murders on a small area?  People are going to want to move.
> 
> You cant engage with people who have so little respect for life.


 Sterling Grds is'nt a bad area tbh,a nice quiet Cul De Sac hopefully it'll stay that way.


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## lenny101 (Jul 5, 2008)

I don't understand the extreme level of violence for what looks like a robbery. Truly fucking shocking.

London seems so dangerous at the moment with so many stabbings but I have lived here for years and never had any problems. The London I read about in the papers seems like a different world to the one I live in.


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## scruff (Jul 5, 2008)

Carrying and using a knife/gun should get you an instant life sentance in the army. If these fuckers want to play hard...


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

goldenecitrone said:


> And where's the surveillance society when you need it?


It doesn't exist.  It's principally in the fevered minds of the conspiraloons.  As I (and others) have pointed out repeatedly, there are NOT ranks of CCTV operators watching every camera 24/7.  There are not millions of people and computers laving away reading every word of every e-mail and listening to every second of every phone call.

There is very, very little real-time surveillance at all.  And that that there is is almost always targetted on someone who has become a suspect for some justifable reason.


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

ddraig said:


> ... or just proper psycho's???


Very, very few of those around.

This is an _extremely_ unusual crime.  That level of apparently frenzied violence (and unnecessary violence) is, in my experience, usually connected with sexual motivation (which seems not to be likely in this case, though there is no way anyone can be sure on the basis of what is in the public domain) or mental illness (where it is far more usual for an attack to be in a public place rather than in someone's home).

Very strange case ...


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

Dravinian said:


> ...one person couldn't have done that.


There is no basis for concluding that.  It could quite possibly be inflicted by one person.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 5, 2008)

What do you think of the possibility mentioned earlier on this thread that it was more than one person because of the energy needed to inflict that many stab wounds?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 5, 2008)

Ah, you've just answered me


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## twistedAM (Jul 5, 2008)

scruff said:


> Carrying and using a knife/gun should get you an instant life sentance in the army. If these fuckers want to play hard...



Hey guys. Meet The Taliban. Good luck with your knives.


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## Maggot (Jul 5, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> There is no basis for concluding that.  It could quite possibly be inflicted by one person.


How could one person take on two other people and tie them up?


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## Dan U (Jul 5, 2008)

Maggot said:


> How could one person take on two other people and tie them up?



depends how fucking hard/crazed they were.

we don't know they were both in at the same time and overpowered or if they came home seperately and someone was waiting.
or if they used chloroform or something.

i just hope the police sort this one out asap. it's nasty.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 5, 2008)

ddraig said:


> i was thinking drugs, burglary gone badly wrong or just proper psycho's???



This story is very nasty.
Those poor men.
I was thinking the same as you but then I found the comment made by one of their girlfriends which seems to suggest that something may have been going on.


> "I will give all the required information to the investigation, my dear, so you can be avenged."



From here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7487126.stm


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## Dravinian (Jul 5, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> There is no basis for concluding that.  It could quite possibly be inflicted by one person.



Yeah why not take half the sentence out of context.

I did use the well known term 'surely' as in, man this can't be true! Surely.


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

Maggot said:


> How could one person take on two other people and tie them up?


How could a handful of children take on a whole train full of adults and rob them?

(EG:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3618618.stm)


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

Dravinian said:


> Yeah why not take half the sentence out of context.


I didn't.  I addressed exactly the point your post made.



> I did use the well known term 'surely' as in, man this can't be true! Surely.


No, you didn't.  




			
				Original post said:
			
		

> This has to be a group attack surely, one person couldn't have done that.




If you _meant to_ you need to address your use of syntax and punctuation and consider the use of exclamation marks and / or  smilies.


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## Hi-ASL (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm thinking gangland killing disguised as robbery but the victims seem so clean-living that it seems a silly notion.

But still, I'm thinking drug debt or something along those lines - otherwise the ferocity of the attack just doesn't seem to make any sense.


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi-ASL said:


> I'm thinking gangland killing disguised as robbery


The level/type of violence would be _extremely_ unusual for either of those explanations.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 5, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> ....but then I found the comment made by one of their girlfriends which seems to suggest that something may have been going on.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7487126.stm


To be honest, I think that's more because her English is very ropey....


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## twistedAM (Jul 5, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> The level/type of violence would be _extremely_ unusual for either of those explanations.



Yeah. Soon as I heard they were brilliant minds, were only there for a short research stint and had a stolen laptop I thought it might have been an industrial espionage job but that falls down on the same count.


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## Sweaty Betty (Jul 5, 2008)

Nutjob i reckon, cant see them being involved in ganglad shit!!


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## HackneyE9 (Jul 5, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> The level/type of violence would be _extremely_ unusual for either of those explanations.



Couldn't the frenzied attack be drug-induced, though?

Very odd.


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## Sweaty Betty (Jul 5, 2008)

HackneyE9 said:


> Couldn't the frenzied attack be drug-induced, though?
> 
> Very odd.



You'd think so, as how anyone could do that sober or without major mental health issues is clearly in need of putting down...


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## Hi-ASL (Jul 5, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> The level/type of violence would be _extremely_ unusual for either of those explanations.


Someone at their hometown university - one of their professors, I think - expressed the opinion that the level of violence used was intended to send a message to someone. All very vague I know, but the shocking nature of the crime lends itself to all kinds of frenzied speculation. Maybe it's just as it appears - a simple robbery gone wrong. They were, after all, the victims of burglary just a week before. Maybe the robbers returned, found them home unexpectedly, they resisted, and everything went downhill from there.

It's pointless to speculate but the not knowing is maddening. It just seems to defy all logical explanation.


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

HackneyE9 said:


> Couldn't the frenzied attack be drug-induced, though?


Very rarely came across that in real-life (or, to be rather more accurate, real-death).  Alcohol-induced violence, yes.  Drig-induced violence, far, far less commonly.


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi-ASL said:


> Maybe the robbers returned, found them home unexpectedly, they resisted, and everything went downhill from there.


As I said, the level and type of violence is not associated with that explanation.  Anything is possible but it would be a very unusual incident if it were.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 5, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> To be honest, I think that's more because her English is very ropey....



Maybe....





> "I will never stop thinking about you for a second. I had 10 months of a happiness I had never experienced until then.
> 
> "Today you are gone. I will try to be as good as you always wanted.
> 
> "I will give all the required information to the investigation, my dear, so you can be avenged."



Maybe it's a translation....even so it struck me as a strange thing to say, a strange translation even...


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## Hi-ASL (Jul 5, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> As I said, the level and type of violence is not associated with that explanation. Anything is possible but it would be a very unusual incident if it were.


So not a robbery. Not a gangland attack. A serial killer then?

That it's a "very unusual incident" is the one thing we can be sure of.

What kind of incidents, in your experience, leave 250 stab wounds in two bodies?


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## detective-boy (Jul 5, 2008)

Hi-ASL said:


> What kind of incidents, in your experience, leave 250 stab wounds in two bodies?


As I said earlier:



> That level of apparently frenzied violence (and unnecessary violence) is, in my experience, usually connected with sexual motivation (which seems not to be likely in this case, though there is no way anyone can be sure on the basis of what is in the public domain) or mental illness (where it is far more usual for an attack to be in a public place rather than in someone's home).



Whatever it turns out to be, it will be a very unusual example of it.  Many / most murders pretty much tell you from the outset what has happened and / or why.  I think this is one of the relatively few which does not seem to fit any common "type" (unless, as may well be the case, there are significant pieces of information which we do not know in the public domain).  The profilers will no doubt be having a field day trying to work it out!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 5, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Maybe....
> 
> Maybe it's a translation....even so it struck me as a strange thing to say, a strange translation even...


I must say it was my first thought...in fact my actual thought was "She's put what she wants to say through a ropey online translator"


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## lenny101 (Jul 5, 2008)

Maybe they offended one of the local gangsters by looking at them the wrong way or something. Sounds a bit flippant but (dis) respect and all that bollocks means a lot to some people.


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## dream_girl (Jul 5, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Very strange case ...



Thank goodness for you, Detective Boy, without you I could never have come to such an incisive conclusion. 

Have a lollipop!


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## Maggot (Jul 6, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> How could a handful of children take on a whole train full of adults and rob them?
> 
> (EG:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3618618.stm)


 Eh? You can't really compare those 2 cases. 

5 people 'steaming' a train load of people has nothing to do with this.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 6, 2008)

Well, I think you can, Maggot. I think the point being made is threat and fear.....


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## Maggot (Jul 6, 2008)

I can see how a gang of 5 people can rob a train load, due to fear, but tying someone up takes both hands and concentration, I don't see how one person could do that and stop the other person from taking some sort of action.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 6, 2008)

Maybe both victims weren't there to begin with ...maybe he was lying in wait having nicked keys from previous burglary and the victims didn't arrive together...maybe he had a gun...maybe he got one victim to tie up the other....threats & fear


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## twistedAM (Jul 6, 2008)

Maggot said:


> I can see how a gang of 5 people can rob a train load, due to fear, but tying someone up takes both hands and concentration, I don't see how one person could do that and stop the other person from taking some sort of action.



I've met a few people capable of doing that easily. Usually ex-special forces.


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## detective-boy (Jul 6, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, I think you can, Maggot. I think the point being made is threat and fear.....


Precisely.

You are taking a totally simplistic and naive view of the situation.  There are several possible scenarios which could explain how one person achieved this (not least of which is stabbing one, incapacitating them, and then taking on the other).


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

JHE said:


> According to a news report on the radio, one of the murdered frenchmen was stabbed in the chest about 200 times!
> 
> Grim, grim stuff.
> 
> I'm very curious to know what this was all about.  Personal stuff or the work of a 'random' homocidal maniac?



Sounds like the work of crackheads to me. Fucking scum.


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## detective-boy (Jul 6, 2008)

pk said:


> Sounds like the work of crackheads to me. Fucking scum.


Does it?  Please link to some previous examples of this type and level of violence being down to "crackheads" ...


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## pk (Jul 6, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Does it?  Please link to some previous examples of this type and level of violence being down to "crackheads" ...



You are joking, right?

If somehow in the course of your career you haven't noticed the link between crack use and casual violence, ranging from wifebeating to full on torture to reveal PIN numbers (as a former Urban75 poster experienced whilst trying to buy drugs on Coldharbour Lane) then I don't think you were in the right job.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/dec/23/ukcrime.topstories3

http://www.independent.ie/national-...s-nine-years-for-night-of-torture-225700.html

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/091307/news091307_08.html


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## Dan U (Jul 7, 2008)

Second man held

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/07/ukcrime.knifecrime


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## detective-boy (Jul 7, 2008)

pk said:


> You are joking, right?


No.  Thank you for your examples of violence by crackheads.  I am well aware of lots of such examples.  What I am NOT aware of, is any significant trend of the use of the extreme violence (tying up; almost 200 stab wounds, some post death; arson) seen in this case by simple "crackheads".

Are you?


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## lostexpectation (Jul 7, 2008)

we'll see he recently been let out of some mental hospital


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## HackneyE9 (Jul 7, 2008)

Arrested man suffering from burns and about to be charged, I'm hearing.


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## detective-boy (Jul 7, 2008)

HackneyE9 said:


> Arrested man suffering from burns and about to be charged, I'm hearing.


* Waits for fuckwits to turn up and post "Oh, I've got a burn.  Does that make me a multiple murderer" style posts ... *


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## Riklet (Jul 7, 2008)

The fact he turned himself in makes me suspect the guy's a nutter, or else he was caught up in it with someone else, or sobered up and realised what had happened...... either way, fucking BRUTAL and tragic crime, and it really seems like there's very little motive.  They were tortured and then mutilated after they died, most likely, so someone was either really trying to make a point, or is so out of it the idea of "point" had little bearing... I mean come on, it can't have been to get the PIN codes, anyone would have coughed up their codes as soon as they realised they were dealing with a seriously fucked psychopath.

Mmmm, very unsettling if the guy who handed himself in has just got out of a mental hospital, and tbh... the fact he did hand himself in could well mean he was; few days wandering around, and then no idea how to look after himself or get himself treated... then straight to the cop shop.   If that turns out to be the case there'll certainly be a fair bit of fuss over the government's handling of people with mental illnesses.... perhaps with good reason.

RIP poor buggers anyway.


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## pk (Jul 7, 2008)

I'll lay a tenner on that he's a crackhead.


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## Louloubelle (Jul 8, 2008)

pk said:


> http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/091307/news091307_08.html



This was the case that came to my mind when I heard of this murder
Obviously I don't know for sure but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the person who committed these murders was a crack addict


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## kyser_soze (Jul 8, 2008)

I used to live in Sterling Gardens so reading about this felt weird.

My first response was 'WTF!?' then 'Was there anything dodgy going on we don't know about?'

Whatever, this is hugely fucked up.


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## Louloubelle (Jul 8, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> No.  Thank you for your examples of violence by crackheads.  I am well aware of lots of such examples.  What I am NOT aware of, is any significant trend of the use of the extreme violence (tying up; almost 200 stab wounds, some post death; arson) seen in this case by simple "crackheads".
> 
> Are you?



from the last example from PK's link

"Mrs Wright, who has two daughters and worked in the ladies’ wear department of the John Lewis store in Oxford Street before her retirement, was repeatedly ‘pricked’ with a knife.

Her skull was fractured and she suffered 40 hammer blows. Two of Mrs Wright’s teeth had been knocked out and she had a fracture to one hand.
She was bludgeoned with the hammer and stabbed. She suffered 14 broken ribs and 15 head injuries in addition to knife wounds."

OK she wasn't tied up, but she was a frail 71 year old lady attacked by her much bigger and stronger crack addict son, so he probably didn't need to tie her up. 

I think that the repeatedly ‘pricked’ with a knife is another way of saying she had been stabbed, but to hurt her, not to kill her, as someone might do if attempting to torture someone to get their pin number.


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## twistedAM (Jul 8, 2008)

Apparently the receptionist told the guy "take a seat and someone will be with you soon" and he was waiting for five minutes until a Dibble appeared


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## poster342002 (Jul 8, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> maybe he was lying in wait having nicked keys from previous burglary


With rented accomodation the locks are seldom changed when one tenant moves out and another moves in. You often have no idea just how many people could have the keys to your flat or have made copies and passed them on - especially in places with a very high turnover of residents.


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## Belushi (Jul 8, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Another possibility: with rented accomodation the locks are seldom changed when one tenant moves out and another moves in. You often have no idea just how many people could have the keys to your flat or have made copies and passed them on - especialy in places with a very high turnover.



Yes, a couple fo years back I threw out a huge collection of keys I'd picked up over ten years of living in shared houses.


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## Louloubelle (Jul 8, 2008)

twisted said:


> Apparently the receptionist told the guy "take a seat and someone will be with you soon" and he was waiting for five minutes until a Dibble appeared



Round here you'd be in a queue for 2 - 5 hours before you even got to speak to the receptionist


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## JHE (Jul 8, 2008)

twisted said:


> Apparently the receptionist told the guy "take a seat and someone will be with you soon" and he was waiting for five minutes until a Dibble appeared



Five minutes spent trying to find a volunteer?

_- OK, everyone, listen up.  Out in the reception area is a suspected homicidal maniac.  He says he stabbed those two French students hundreds of times.  Who would like to go out there and deal with him?  Don't forget to search him properly, mind.

- Sorry, Sarge, I'd love to help, but I'm, er, really busy right now._


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## HackneyE9 (Jul 8, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> With rented accomodation the locks are seldom changed when one tenant moves out and another moves in. You often have no idea just how many people could have the keys to your flat or have made copies and passed them on - especially in places with a very high turnover of residents.



<Hmm. Must remember to change locks when we get our old house back! >


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## detective-boy (Jul 8, 2008)

pk said:


> I'll lay a tenner on that he's a crackhead.


But that isn't the same thing, is it?

You _were_ claiming that it was motivated entirely by the fact that the suspect was a crackhead, as opposed to the suspect happening to have a crack habit and it being due to mental illness / robbery / some other motivation.  The offender may well have a crack habit.  But I would take your tenner that it's not been committed _simply_ because of that fact.


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## detective-boy (Jul 8, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> from the last example from PK's link


The context / motivation is domestic (mother / son) not _simply_ because he was a crack addict.


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## detective-boy (Jul 8, 2008)

twisted said:


> Apparently the receptionist told the guy "take a seat and someone will be with you soon" and he was waiting for five minutes until a Dibble appeared


This is not unusual - I had that with one of mine.  The standards today ... 

(who, incidentally, had legged it to Devon or somewhere and then, on seeing the media coverage, had decided to travel back to Sutton and give himself up.  Having done so, he promptly (on the advice of a muppet brief) gave a "no comment" interview which included the priceless exchange:

Interviewer (somewhat non-plussed on the lack of cooperation):  Er, you travelled all the way from Devon and gave yourself up at the front counter as being wanted.  What do you believe you are wanted for?

Suspect:  No comment.  

(He was charged with murder and kept in custody - if he'd talked he would have been bailed pending further enquiries (it was a one punch, cracked skull type incident) and probably would have been charged with manslaughter and stayed on bail pending trial).)


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## Louloubelle (Jul 8, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> The context / motivation is domestic (mother / son) not _simply_ because he was a crack addict.



TBF I don't think that anyone commits a hideously violent crime _just_ because they are a crack addict, however crack addiction does seem to make some people more likely to commit hideously violent crimes, torturing people for information for either pin number or safe combinations or "where's the money hidden then?" type crimes. 

I was robbed by a crack addict.  he was clearly pathetic and desperate, however he apologised to me as he was attacking me and told me "don't be silly now" as I tried to fight with him.  We were both rubbish fighters and we ended up with him in a get away car holding my bag and me still holding onto my bag strap, a potentially lethal situation which thankfully ended up with me suffering no more than a few bruises and a ripped coat. 

I suppose I'm saying that I appreciate that crack doesn't turn all addicts into monstrous torturers and murderers, but if someone is inclined towards violence, the addition of crack into the mix makes the outcome potentially much more dangerous. 

As for the fire, well that could just be the CSI effect, as could the stabbing injuries sustained after death.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 8, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> TBF I don't think that anyone commits a hideously violent crime _just_ because they are a crack addict, however crack addiction does seem to make some people more likely to commit hideously violent crimes, torturing people for information for either pin number or safe combinations or "where's the money hidden then?" type crimes.


That's not my experience - at least where the sort of really excessive violence of this case is concerned (I agree that they do tend to resort to some violence pretty quickly during robberies, etc. but not, in my experience to this sort of thing)

As I said from the start, I have only experienced this as a matter of identifiable trend in relation to sexual motivation (often linked with an aspect of hate crime, now I think of it) and mental illness.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jul 8, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> That's not my experience - at least where the sort of really excessive violence of this case is concerned (I agree that they do tend to resort to some violence pretty quickly during robberies, etc. but not, in my experience to this sort of thing)
> 
> As I said from the start, I have only experienced this as a matter of identifiable trend in relation to sexual motivation (often linked with an aspect of hate crime, now I think of it) and mental illness.




I don't know all the details of exactly how they were mutilated so you could be right

There are some kinds of injuries that obviously suggest a sexual motivation and some that indicate mental illness.  The postmortems stabbings would suggest either possibility as they serve no function in terms of torturing someone to obtain information and there is substantial literature recording such murders as being motivated by sexual sadism and/ or hate crime. 

However the fact that the murderer/s set fire to the crime scene suggests that he/they had attempted to destroy evidence yes?  It is possible that the postmortem stabbings were an attempt to throw investigators off the case, yes? Especially given that, with the CSI effect, an ordinary member of the public can learn about how to disguise an acquisitive crime as a crime committed by a sexual psychopath. 

The fact that a laptop had been stolen at an earlier burglary suggests that, _if_ the murders were linked to the earlier burglary, the perpetrator/s had some time to think about what they were going to do and how to cover their tracks, so there is a _possibility _ that he/they planned to make an acquisitive crime appear to be a sex crime or some other kind of crime.

Another possibility is that more than one perpetrator was involved as there is a history of horrific murders, involving kidnap and torture where the relevant factors were a) a group who decided, for whatever reason, that they were justified in torturing people to death (or at least in torturing them, got carried away and then realised they had gone too far and went on to murder) and b) the consumption of certain drugs by the perpetrators

The cases that come to my mind to me are the murders of Mary-Ann Leneghan and, years earlier, the murder of Suzanne Capper.  Both murders involved horrific torture and sexual degradation of the victims while the perpetrators were under the influence of drugs (crack cocaine and amphetamines respectively).  In both cases the perpetrators were fired up by a sense of righteous indignation in relation to real or imaginary crimes that they imagined the victims had committed.  In both cases the members of the group egged each other on to commit even more horrific acts of violence that, as individuals, they probably wouldn't have committed.

Just thinking aloud really.  I really hope that the man who gave himself up is the perpetrator.


----------



## Hi-ASL (Jul 9, 2008)

wtf?

*Oh MODERATORS!?!?WAAKEY WAAAAAKEEEY!!!*


----------



## Hi-ASL (Jul 9, 2008)

lkky00245 said:


> The Runner is a moving, sincere Age of Conan Gold piece of art. Despite that, most audiences might not have even noticed that it went through the theaters like a desert breeze. It’s made a modest showing internationally, and pulled in $15.4 million in its limited Age of Conan Power Leveling US release. Critics, however, remained mixed, although most of the negative reviews placed the film up against the poetic genius of its source material ?C the best selling novel by Khaled Hosseini.


Oh well. Might as well quote it, so that all the people still yawning awake don't feel like they've missed anything. 'snot like there's much else to be doing at this stupid, unearthly hour of the morning. Who knows, maybe someone will actually _want_ an Age of Conan levelling - whatever one of them is.

And now we return you to: _deranged multiple stabbings and the world going to Hell in a handbasket_. Please do not adjust your sets..


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> However the fact that the murderer/s set fire to the crime scene suggests that he/they had attempted to destroy evidence yes?  It is possible that the postmortem stabbings were an attempt to throw investigators off the case, yes? Especially given that, with the CSI effect, an ordinary member of the public can learn about how to disguise an acquisitive crime as a crime committed by a sexual psychopath.


Anything is possible ... but ...

Fire has a variety of uses - I have encountered it being used deliberately, and primarily, to obscure evidence quite rarely (at least when it comes to murders - torching the getaway car is _de rigeur_ for robbers!).  Likewise I have rarely heard of additional injuries being used to disguise a basic crime (unless being used to make murder look like suicide).

If it is either of these motivations (and neither can be ruled out on the basis of what we know) then it will be an unusual crime.

The other cases you mention with massive amounts of torture / sadism involved, as you point out, victims known to the suspects and a motivation borne of that.  It seems unlikely from what we know of the background of the two victims that that is the case here (although again it cannot be ruled out - lots of people have totally hidden second lives).


----------



## Louloubelle (Jul 9, 2008)

Nigel Edward Farmer 33 years old of NFA, the man who handed himself in, has been charged with 2 counts of murder, one of arson and one of perverting the course of justice 

just heard it on BBC news


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 9, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> Nigel Edward Farmer 33 years old of NFA, the man who handed himself in, has been charged with 2 counts of murder, one of arson and one of perverting the course of justice


Perverting the course of justice??? 

Anyway, that's the last we'll hear of the background until the trial.


----------



## agricola (Jul 9, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> This is not unusual - I had that with one of mine.  The standards today ...
> 
> (who, incidentally, had legged it to Devon or somewhere and then, on seeing the media coverage, had decided to travel back to Sutton and give himself up.  Having done so, he promptly (on the advice of a muppet brief) gave a "no comment" interview which included the priceless exchange:
> 
> ...



Idiot duty solicitors are the last unreformed part of the criminal justice system.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 9, 2008)

Accoriding to the BBC news two more people have been arrrested in Streatham.


----------



## Louloubelle (Jul 10, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> Perverting the course of justice???
> 
> Anyway, that's the last we'll hear of the background until the trial.



I'm wondering if starting a fire in an attempt to destroy forensic evidence would be classified as attempting to pervert the course of justice?

I know we have to be careful what we post now so I hope it's OK  to post this


----------



## Louloubelle (Jul 10, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> The other cases you mention with massive amounts of torture / sadism involved, as you point out, victims known to the suspects and a motivation borne of that.  It seems unlikely from what we know of the background of the two victims that that is the case here (although again it cannot be ruled out - lots of people have totally hidden second lives).



I suppose I'm thinking of the stolen laptop
People leave a lot of information about themselves on their computers so even if the perpetrator/s didn't know them IRL they could have developed real knowledge or developed all kinds of erroneous fantastical theories about the lives of the victims from data on the laptop


----------



## Louloubelle (Jul 11, 2008)

This poor lady had been tortured by being repeatedly stabbed, probably for her pin number, before being murdered 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/7288825.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/7227498.stm

A friend of mine knows her daughter.  

I wonder how common these kind of crimes are?


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 11, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I'm wondering if starting a fire in an attempt to destroy forensic evidence would be classified as attempting to pervert the course of justice?


It seems that is the basis of the charge - I can certainly see the basis for it ... but I've never seen it used before (certainly not as a matter of course) where a suspect has destroyed their own crime scene (as it were) as opposed to destroying someone elses to cover up for them.  This case gets odder and odder ...


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 11, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I wonder how common these kind of crimes are?


THIS sort of crime (based on what we know) is very unusual - the use of far lower levels of violence to extort pin numbers, etc (as in the case you linked to) are nore common.  As I have said, the only types of case where I would not be surprised by this type and level of violence would be those involving sexual motivation or mental illness.


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## dynamicbaddog (Apr 27, 2009)

The trial at the Old Bailey has started today. 

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Torture-French-Students-Laurent-Bonomo-And-Gabriel-Ferez-Killed-By-Dano-Sonnex-And-Nigel-Farmer/Article/200904415270128?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15270128_Torture%3A_French_Students_Laurent_Bonomo_And_Gabriel_Ferez_Killed_By_Dano_Sonnex_And_Nigel_Farmer


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 27, 2009)

I'm generally against the death penalty, but a case like this does seriously sway my feelings. The perpetrators are definitely surplus to humanity.


----------



## purplex (Apr 28, 2009)

goldenecitrone said:


> I'm generally against the death penalty, but a case like this does seriously sway my feelings. The perpetrators are definitely surplus to humanity.



While the crime was heinous, and many crimes are more so, I wouldnt ever be in favour of the death penalty. Its an absolute abuse of state power. Though I do appreciate your sentiment.


----------



## maximilian ping (Apr 28, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> As I have said, the only types of case where I would not be surprised by this type and level of violence would be those involving sexual motivation or mental illness.



bang on. one of the accused was seriously mentally ill


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 29, 2009)

purplex said:


> While the crime was heinous, and many crimes are more so, I wouldnt ever be in favour of the death penalty. Its an absolute abuse of state power. Though I do appreciate your sentiment.



You're right, obviously. I'll have to just hope that they never walk around free ever again.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 29, 2009)

I have a friend who was convicted of a similar crime (torturing to death of a bookies manager trying to get a safe combination). There were calls for him to be hanged. 20 years later he was completely exonerated.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm in no implying that these two are victims of miscarriages of justice btw, I'm just saying they do happen and in ghastly crimes feelings run high.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Apr 29, 2009)

To some degree, the worse the crime the moire likely the miscarriage, which is one reason why the argument that the death penalty should apply in really appalling cases doesn't hold water.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (May 14, 2009)

here's an interesting development

http://news.aol.co.uk/man-tried-to-steal-from-actress/article/20090513095549185187671

sounds like Maureen had a lucky escape that night


----------



## Melinda (May 14, 2009)

dynamicbaddog said:


> here's an interesting development
> 
> http://news.aol.co.uk/man-tried-to-steal-from-actress/article/20090513095549185187671
> 
> sounds like Maureen had a lucky escape that night



Whoa. That is so disturbing. 

I bet this incident has forced  Maureen Bass to move house. Sometimes you have to trust your fear and get the fuck out. 

It must have been extra hard for the murdered students' parents to listen to that via a translator. This 'near miss' is yet something else to add to their list of 'what ifs.'


----------



## pk (May 14, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> THIS sort of crime (based on what we know) is very unusual - the use of far lower levels of violence to extort pin numbers, etc (as in the case you linked to) are nore common.  As I have said, the only types of case where I would not be surprised by this type and level of violence would be those involving sexual motivation or mental illness.



Or indeed crack cocaine, as I suspect is the main motivation behind the robbery and willingness to stab someone hundreds of times.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jun 4, 2009)

guilty verdict announced this morning

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8073659.stm


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 4, 2009)

dynamicbaddog said:


> guilty verdict announced this morning
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8073659.stm


 

Excellent.  That was one sick crime.  Ok, all murder is sick, but to have been stabbed so many times....


----------



## pk (Jun 4, 2009)

pk said:


> I'll lay a tenner on that he's a crackhead.



Looks like I'd have won that tenner then...



> Dano Sonnex, 23, and Nigel Farmer, 34, the two *crack-addicted* drunks in the middle of the small living room, would bind them by hand and foot and subject them to the most horrific torture, leaving their two bodies with 244 stab injuries, including wounds that left their brains haemorrhaging in what was described in the Old Bailey as "an orgy of blood-letting".



Fuck the pair of them, hope they die alone screaming in some shithouse prison cell. Utter surplus.


----------



## pk (Jun 4, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> That's not my experience - at least where the sort of really excessive violence of this case is concerned (I agree that they do tend to resort to some violence pretty quickly during robberies, etc. but not, in my experience to this sort of thing)
> 
> As I said from the start, I have only experienced this as a matter of identifiable trend in relation to sexual motivation (often linked with an aspect of hate crime, now I think of it) and mental illness.



I am therefore questioning your experience.

I'm also going to ask you - do you not think that a serious crack habit is in fact proof of mental illness? 

You take enough crack and you develop a mental illness, including a propensity for extreme violence.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jun 4, 2009)

> A senior probation officer in London has resigned as a result of the mistakes.
> 
> Six weeks before the killings, magistrates had granted Sonnex bail on charges of handling stolen goods.
> 
> He was expected to be recalled to prison to serve the remainder of an earlier sentence, but the paperwork was not ready and he walked free from court.



why does this not suprise me?

This sort of incompetence by the probation service goes on all the time. I have a neighbour who's partner is a really violent criminal - always in and out of the nick - burglaries, muggings, all sorts of badness. A couple of years ago he was out on licence and got caught trying to rob a tourist in the West End using a knife. He was given bail and ordered to attend court, he failed to turn up  & after  a few months they caught up with him and  in court the probation people hadn't sorted their shit out and he walked - and he caused all sorts of trouble since then. He's now back in prison again for a similar but unrelated offence


----------



## dtb (Jun 4, 2009)

an absolutely evil and chilling crime, for some reason i've been following this one closely and thinking about it a lot. the level of violence involved makes you wander what pushed them over the edge, especially since there was no need to inflict so much pain


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## Gingerman (Jun 5, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8030777.stm
Jeeze the Sonnex clan sound like a right bunch of cunts


----------



## agricola (Jun 5, 2009)

dynamicbaddog said:


> why does this not suprise me?
> 
> This sort of incompetence by the probation service goes on all the time. I have a neighbour who's partner is a really violent criminal - always in and out of the nick - burglaries, muggings, all sorts of badness. A couple of years ago he was out on licence and got caught trying to rob a tourist in the West End using a knife. He was given bail and ordered to attend court, he failed to turn up  & after  a few months they caught up with him and  in court the probation people hadn't sorted their shit out and he walked - and he caused all sorts of trouble since then. He's now back in prison again for a similar but unrelated offence



Its not incompetence, at least not personal incompetence (the caseworker for Sonnex had 127 other "clients").  Noone can function under such a caseload, nor can they really be blamed when the prison overcrowding mess was influencing matters.

The bulk of the blame for this whole catalogue of affairs lies with the current Government, who - as mentioned in Straw's entirely self-serving statement - have managed to make a large amount of money disappear without any tangible benefit.  What little blame remains should be directed at the probation service, the courts system and the police.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 5, 2009)

Gingerman said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8030777.stm
> Jeeze the Sonnex clan sound like a right bunch of cunts



Yeah they do.

Am I the only person who is not quite as sorry for the French students as I would be for most other victims of this sort of horrendous violence?

I just know that if I had met either of these French post-graduate students, I would find them really annoying.


----------



## pk (Jun 5, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> Yeah they do.
> 
> Am I the only person who is not quite as sorry for the French students as I would be for most other victims of this sort of horrendous violence?
> 
> I just know that if I had met either of these French post-graduate students, I would find them really annoying.



You are a cunt though, "Holmes" let's face it. 

And an obvious troll. Time you fucked off isn't it really?

I'll see you in the gutter, looking up at me, laughing down at you.


----------



## Tricky Mickey (Jun 5, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> Yeah they do.
> 
> Am I the only person who is not quite as sorry for the French students as I would be for most other victims of this sort of horrendous violence?
> 
> I just know that if I had met either of these French post-graduate students, I would find them really annoying.



read this.


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 5, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> Am I the only person who is not quite as sorry for the French students as I would be for most other victims of this sort of horrendous violence?
> 
> I just know that if I had met either of these French post-graduate students, I would find them really annoying.


Spot the blatant  wind up.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 5, 2009)

pk said:


> You are a cunt though, "Holmes" let's face it.
> 
> And an obvious troll. Time you fucked off isn't it really?
> 
> I'll see you in the gutter, looking up at me, laughing down at you.



I hate trolls - and actually if you look at my posts they are not consistent with a troll.

My post about the French students is anti-social, but just brutally honest.

Please also note that I have Asperger’s syndrome.

We have had a previous spat on the drugs board. You are also a cunt.


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 5, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> My post about the French students is anti-social, but just brutally honest.


No, it's puerile and inflamatory.


----------



## Greenfish (Jun 5, 2009)

sick, horrible.  can't read about this stuff too much.  there's little point in reading about it - these are one off cases done by extremely sick fcukers who in my opinion should be locked away for life.


----------



## Greenfish (Jun 5, 2009)

dynamicbaddog said:


> why does this not suprise me?
> 
> This sort of incompetence by the probation service goes on all the time. I have a neighbour who's partner is a really violent criminal - always in and out of the nick - burglaries, muggings, all sorts of badness. A couple of years ago he was out on licence and got caught trying to rob a tourist in the West End using a knife. He was given bail and ordered to attend court, he failed to turn up  & after  a few months they caught up with him and  in court the probation people hadn't sorted their shit out and he walked - and he caused all sorts of trouble since then. He's now back in prison again for a similar but unrelated offence




you might find it interesting to read the scientific lit on sociopathy/psychopathy - your neighbour sounds like a classic case!


----------



## Gingerman (Jun 5, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> I just know that if I had met either of these French post-graduate students, I would find them really annoying.


I imagine I'd find you pretty annoying


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Jun 5, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> I hate trolls - and actually if you look at my posts they are not consistent with a troll.
> 
> My post about the French students is anti-social, but just brutally honest.
> 
> ...



fuck off cockend.


----------



## Greenfish (Jun 5, 2009)

Gingerman said:


> I imagine I'd find you pretty annoying



and cold.  if someone said what he said to me, i would find that very cold....


----------



## Gingerman (Jun 5, 2009)

Greenfish said:


> and cold.  if someone said what he said to me, i would find that very cold....



Lack of empathy possibly? anyway this happened not far from me poor guys,unlucky to be the victims of a  particularly sadistic pair of burglars.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 5, 2009)

I don't know how you can possibly make any judgements about whether someone is annoying or not based on nothing but the fact that they were brutally and sadistically murdered. Autistic or not.


----------



## pk (Jun 6, 2009)

Aspergers - the best cure for that is 100 percent pure cocaine.


----------



## JHE (Jun 6, 2009)

How much of the bile directed at John Holmes is misdirected anger at the appalling murders?  Quite a bit, I'd guess.

~~~~

John Holmes:  Just out of idle curiosity:  What is it that would annoy you?  The fact that they are French or the fact that they are students?

~~~~

PK, yes, I think you were right about crack.  There are lots of daft druggies round here that don't like hearing things like that.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 6, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> Yeah they do.
> 
> Am I the only person who is not quite as sorry for the French students as I would be for most other victims of this sort of horrendous violence?
> 
> I just know that if I had met either of these French post-graduate students, I would find them really annoying.



I hope your death is painful and slow you piece of shit.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 6, 2009)

JHE said:


> How much of the bile directed at John Holmes is misdirected anger at the appalling murders?  Quite a bit, I'd guess.
> 
> ~~~~
> 
> ...




PK is 100% cunt, so I will let him off.

It is a combination - most French people annoy me, and most post-graduate students annoy me. However, they were playing Playstation, so they may actually have been alright.


----------



## pk (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> PK is 100% cunt, so I will let him off.
> 
> It is a combination - most French people annoy me, and most post-graduate students annoy me. However, they were playing Playstation, so they may actually have been alright.



The fact that you can say this shite, and consider me 100% cunt, means I must be doing something right.

I think you need to fuck off now, cabbage.


----------



## pk (Jun 7, 2009)

JHE said:


> PK, yes, I think you were right about crack.  There are lots of daft druggies round here that don't like hearing things like that.



I know I'm right. Crack cocaine is more often than not the motivation behind these over-the-top murderous frenzies, horrific acts of torture can be carried out with apparent impunity.

I think the drug erases anything you might call a conscience in normal people, much more so than alcohol, for example.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 7, 2009)

pk said:


> I know I'm right. Crack cocaine is more often than not the motivation behind these over-the-top murderous frenzies, horrific acts of torture can be carried out with apparent impunity.
> 
> I think the drug erases anything you might call a conscience in normal people, much more so than alcohol, for example.



People often say that about crack cocaine and crystal meth, but really I think only people with a predisposition towards violence would be violent on these drugs - exaggerate violent tendencies yes - but all these people were violent before drugs (with the exception of those who are in a drug induced psychotic state).


----------



## Maggot (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> People often say that about crack cocaine and crystal meth, but really I think only people with a predisposition towards violence would be violent on these drugs - exaggerate violent tendencies yes - but all these people were violent before drugs (with the exception of those who are in a drug induced psychotic state).


But the victims were French, and students. Surely that's annoying enough to make anyone violent.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 7, 2009)

Maggot said:


> But the victims were French, and students. Surely that's annoying enough to make anyone violent.



No. It is not. That was about sympathy from myself towards them.


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> It is a combination - most French people annoy me, and most post-graduate students annoy me.


You're turning out to be quite a prick, you know. Well done.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 7, 2009)

editor said:


> You're turning out to be quite a prick, you know. Well done.



*blushes* thanks. you made my day.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> I hate trolls - and actually if you look at my posts they are not consistent with a troll.
> 
> My post about the French students is anti-social, but just brutally honest.



So you don't mind extreme violence being used on people you suspect _may_ 'annoy' you? Which school of cuntishness did you graduate from?



> Please also note that I have Asperger’s syndrome.



Oh well that makes it okay then. 

Seriously, you need to consider getting yourself sectioned if you hold those kinds of views.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 7, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> So you don't mind extreme violence being used on people you suspect _may_ 'annoy' you?



Thats not what I said.

I was attempting to initiate a discussion on the degrees of sympathy attracted when something bad happens - it depends on who and what you are.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> Thats not what I said.
> 
> I was attempting to initiate a discussion on the degrees of sympathy attracted when something bad happens - it depends on who and what you are.



Well I suppose if Robert Mugabe were to meet a horrific end I wouldn't weep. But two young men in their prime who are guests to the country in order to study? A bit early for them to die and hardly warrants the circumstances in which they met their fate, does it?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jun 7, 2009)

um

the ,close but not quite close enough to NewX ,East Dulwich forum is quite forward in its readers opinions of the case

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,284841

If you cant be arsed to read the pages , the consensus is they should be killed. Now.


----------



## John Holmes (Jun 7, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Well I suppose if Robert Mugabe were to meet a horrific end I wouldn't weep. But two young men in their prime who are guests to the country in order to study? A bit early for them to die and hardly warrants the circumstances in which they met their fate, does it?



No, it was not at all deserved. It was very wrong and evil.

I am still, however, not giving the victims 100% of sympathy level that such a crime could generate - for the racist reason that they were French, the sexist reason that they were men, and the anti-education reason of disliking post-graduates.


----------



## Gingerman (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> No, it was not at all deserved. It was very wrong and evil.
> 
> I am still, however, not giving the victims 100% of sympathy level that such a crime could generate - for the racist reason that they were French, the sexist reason that they were men, and the anti-education reason of disliking post-graduates.


Sorry but were you born a gobshite or did you study hard  at school to become one????


----------



## JHE (Jun 7, 2009)

The bullying personal abuse and daft accusations directed at John Holmes by many people here are far nastier, IMO, than John's comment on his own less-than-fair-minded attitude towards French people and students.

(I don't know whether this ganging up and bullying happens as much on other message boards.  Perhaps not.  I've pretty much only seen it here.  In any case, it reminds me of the behaviour of school children at their worst.)


----------



## Gingerman (Jun 7, 2009)

JHE said:


> The bullying personal abuse and daft accusations directed at John Holmes by many people here are far nastier, IMO, than John's comment on his own less-than-fair-minded attitude towards French people and students.
> 
> (I don't know whether this ganging up and bullying happens as much on other message boards.  Perhaps not.  I've pretty much only seen it here.  In any case, it reminds me of the behaviour of school children at their worst.)



So you dont think hes just an attention seeking troll then?


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## John Holmes (Jun 7, 2009)

Yes, there is a lot of bullying on this forum. It is because there a lot of people on this forum who have been bullied from a young age - since they are considered different - then they start to think this is normal behaviour and enjoy doing it to others.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> Yes, there is a lot of bullying on this forum. It is because there a lot of people on this forum who have been bullied from a young age - since they are considered different - then they start to think this is normal behaviour and enjoy doing it to others.


There's the odd moronic troll desperately seeking attention too.


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## trashpony (Jun 7, 2009)

JHE said:


> The bullying personal abuse and daft accusations directed at John Holmes by many people here are far nastier, IMO, than John's comment on his own less-than-fair-minded attitude towards French people and students.
> 
> (I don't know whether this ganging up and bullying happens as much on other message boards.  Perhaps not.  I've pretty much only seen it here.  In any case, it reminds me of the behaviour of school children at their worst.)



Or perhaps people are really sickened by someone writing something as crass as he did when two innocent people have been slaughtered in a really, really horrible way for no reason.


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## pk (Jun 7, 2009)

trashpony said:


> Or perhaps people are really sickened by someone writing something as crass as he did when two innocent people have been slaughtered in a really, really horrible way for no reason.



Aye. Fuck him. Autistic or not, he's a cunt. 
Maybe bulletin boards aren't the best place for him.

Either way... meh.


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## John Holmes (Jun 7, 2009)

Wow. So much love for me. I am not a troll - read my posts. The only slightly troll like post since joining u75 is my first post about the French students - but I subsequently explained fully - although some other forum users failed to really engage with this.


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## berniedicters (Jun 7, 2009)

John Holmes said:


> Wow. So much love for me. I am not a troll - read my posts. The only slightly troll like post since joining u75 is my first post about the French students - but I subsequently explained fully - although some other forum users failed to really engage with this.


You can't be surprised if people are being hostile. That comment you made was monumentally insensitive.


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