# What's a good 35mm SLR for a novice who wants to learn?



## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

I'm hoping to get a place on a City and Guilds photography course. It's strictly 35mm SLR.  The darkroom malarkey is part of the course.  I know nothing at all about photography. Being skint I'll be looking for cheap second hand stuff. So what do I need?  Lots of manual controls? Something robust and serviceable? For which there's a big selection of affordable lenses and accessories? All advice gratefully received!


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## editor (Sep 22, 2013)

There's loads to choose from - so long as it's got manual controls. I'd look at the likes of the Pentax K1000, Nikon FM/FM2n, Canon AE1 or my fave, Olympus OM1/OM2.


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## 8115 (Sep 22, 2013)

Olympus OMG


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

nikon fm2.


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## editor (Sep 22, 2013)

To be honest any of the above - and many others like it - will do just fine, so if you can find someone flogging one off cheap (with a couple of prime lenses), I'd go for it.


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## dessiato (Sep 22, 2013)

I used a Ricoh for years, with a range of lenses. I'd recommend it. But the best 35mm I ever had was a Nikon. I bought it second hand about fifteen years or more ago. It still works.


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## weltweit (Sep 22, 2013)

Nikon FM2 is a handsome camera! With a 50mm lens, what more do you need?


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

I would pick something in Pentax mount - it seems a lot easier/cheaper to get hold of quality lenses on eBay, and the bodies are often very cheap as they come from non-trendy brands like Ricoh. (Who now own Pentax so must have been doing something right.)

You can't really go too far wrong tbh whatever you get, though. There are a lot of Canon AE-1s out there in the UK for some reason and that's a good camera. If you see a Praktica B-mount camera - BX20, B100 etc - that's a good bet too. Again, not trendy, but takes pictures and has loads of top East German glass for it. My BX20 with a pancake 50 is one of my favourite cameras.

For your course you will want something which has manual shutter speed and aperture controls, but that's pretty much all of them. You'll also want something with a meter, even if you don't use it, but almost everything not antique has a meter. Make sure you check which batteries it takes though as some of them aren't made any more.


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## what (Sep 22, 2013)

Try camera world off oxford street often have good film SLR plus lens in the £75-£175 range


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

what said:


> Try camera world off oxford street often have good film SLR plus lens in the £75-£175 range


You shouldn't need to pay that much! You can get a decent body and a 50 for 30-40 quid - e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RICOH-KR-...071367?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item3cd5fb90c7 just on a quick search, and those Rikenon lenses are pretty good too.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I'm starting to get excited. If I end up graduating to a digital SLR body will I able to use my 35mm lenses? I bet that's a really stupid question, innit?


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Thanks everyone. I'm starting to get excited. If I end up graduating to a digital SLR body will I able to use my 35mm lenses? I bet that's a really stupid question, innit?


...yes and no. You can usually get adaptors but they don't tend to be very good investments, you don't get autofocus or anything sophisticated and they don't help image quality. I'd not worry about that aspect tbh. You shouldn't need to spend much to get quality manual lenses anyway.

eta: the standard for Minolta AF lenses from the 80s onwards was picked up by Sony for their new DSLRs, so those work out of the box on them, but for your course you will probably be asked to do a lot of manual stuff and the Minolta film cameras won't be the best bet. I like them, Minoltas are my current fave system, but you probably want something more traditional for learning. Anyway, Sony DSLRs are pretty pricey.


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Nikon FM2 is a handsome camera! With a 50mm lens, what more do you need?


also incredibly sturdy, plus the only thing to work off the battery is the meter.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

In the Brixton Stn Rd market yesterday one of the vintage tat stalls had a Pentax ME with a huge lens, about 8" long. Can't remember what it was, I'd never heard of the mfr, but it was £30 all in. At those prices there must be a few freebies on freecycle etc.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

discokermit said:


> also incredibly sturdy, plus the only thing to work off the battery is the meter.


Do you mean Minoltas?


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

discokermit said:


> also incredibly sturdy, plus the only thing to work off the battery is the meter.


FM2n is the gold standard for manual SLRs, but a bit out of the price range for a student, that's the only thing. If I saw one around for cheap I'd snap it up.


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Do you mean Minoltas?


no. nikon fm2.

from wiki,

Like its predecessor, the FM, the FM2n has a long-standing reputation for reliability and durability.[1] It has an extremely strong body of copper-aluminum-silicon (silumin) alloy.[2] The FM2's film transport consists of high-strength hardened metal gears and moving parts, mounted on clusters of ball bearings. The camera's precision-tapered, high-strength vertical metal shutter blades were fabricated originally of lightweight titanium (later production FM2 shutter blades were made of aluminum), while the mirror/shutter mechanism rides on self-lubricating bearings. The mirror linkage uses the same mechanism found on Nikon's professional F2, with some modern improvements designed to further reduce effects of vibration and mirror bounce. The FM2 also features Nikon's famous close tolerance assembly and minimal space lubrication, meaning that it will reliably operate in temperature extremes of −40 °C to +50 °C.


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> FM2n is the gold standard for manual SLRs, but a bit out of the price range for a student, that's the only thing. If I saw one around for cheap I'd snap it up.


are they still expensive?
mine was stolen years ago. i replaced it with an f3p but it didn't have the same charm.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

I like the sound of Nikon, just because it smacks of '70s war correspondents and all that. And I have a notion that way back when it was always Nikkor that had the widest range of unusual lenses.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

discokermit said:


> are they still expensive?
> mine was stolen years ago. i replaced it with an f3p but it didn't have the same charm.


They're not super silly expensive, but from what I can see you'd be paying a couple of hundred quid for body plus lens on ebay. Might get lucky but it's still not going to go too much lower.

Better deal than the F3 mind you, but those have gone up in price basically because of hipster value. I went on a street photography workshop with a guy who's used an F3 for the last few decades, and he was baffled by how much they went for these days. "Hey I'll sell this one here to anyone who wants it, I don't care, I'll sell it to you right now, it doesn't make any difference, use an iPhone if you want".


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I like the sound of Nikon, just because it smacks of '70s war correspondents and all that.


years back, when most of the press used nikon f3's, the fm2 was the usual back up.

you could beat someone to death with it then use it to take their picture afterwards.


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They're not super silly expensive, but from what I can see you'd be paying a couple of hundred quid for body plus lens on ebay. Might get lucky but it's still not going to go too much lower.
> 
> Better deal than the F3 mind you, but those have gone up in price basically because of hipster value. I went on a street photography workshop with a guy who's used an F3 for the last few decades, and he was baffled by how much they went for these days. "Hey I'll sell this one here to anyone who wants it, I don't care, I'll sell it to you right now, it doesn't make any difference, use an iPhone if you want".


i gave mine away. it was a special edition 'p', which you could only buy with press accreditation.


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## weltweit (Sep 22, 2013)

Say you have an FM2 and you use the aperture ring to set the lens to f2.8 or f8 whatever, does the exposure meter take this into account when you are setting the shutterspeed?

All my lenses have aperture rings, but I don't have to use them on my Digital Fuji.


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

fuck. f3p over five hundred quid on ebay.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I like the sound of Nikon, just because it smacks of '70s war correspondents and all that. And I have a notion that way back when it was always Nikkor that had the widest range of unusual lenses.


The Nikon manuals are really great cameras. (Arguably they've lost the plot a bit now with digital, though I don't want to get into _that_....) It's just that really it won't make any difference to you if you're shooting a Ricoh with Pentax glass or a Nikon or a Canon or an Olympus OM or whatever. Any decent lens will be much sharper than you will ever appreciate, and the film is the same whatever camera you have. Very few bodies are bad enough that you would say "wait don't get that one".


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Say you have an FM2 and you use the aperture ring to set the lens to f2.8 or f8 whatever, does the exposure meter take this into account when you are setting the shutterspeed?


Yes. It would be a bit shit otherwise


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

discokermit said:


> i gave mine away. it was a special edition 'p', which you could only buy with press accreditation.





discokermit said:


> fuck. f3p over five hundred quid on ebay.


doh!


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

yashica fx-d, fifteen quid,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yashica-F...382108?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item565b34eadc

cracking little camera, carl zeiss lenses.

i had two of these. loved 'em.


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## weltweit (Sep 22, 2013)

discokermit said:


> yashica fx-d, fifteen quid,
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yashica-F...382108?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item565b34eadc
> cracking little camera, carl zeiss lenses.


Could have sworn I saw that very unit at my local car boot sale for about the same price.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

discokermit said:


> yashica fx-d, fifteen quid,
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yashica-F...382108?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item565b34eadc
> 
> ...


I have to say I've never heard of the Contax C/Y mount before, but both Contax and Yashica have a good rep for really nice lenses.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

This is the thing, you need to pick underappreciated brands with good glass for them to really get the best value for money. Nikons are terrific but very well known.


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## discokermit (Sep 22, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is the thing, you need to pick underappreciated brands with good glass for them to really get the best value for money. Nikons are terrific but very well known.


that's the thing with yashica, massively overlooked, considering kyocera also made the well regarded contax. plus on the fx-d, the leatherette patches disintegrate pretty quickly, leaving it looking pretty shabby.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

discokermit said:


> that's the thing with yashica, massively overlooked, considering kyocera also made the well regarded contax. plus on the fx-d, the leatherette patches disintegrate pretty quickly, leaving it looking pretty shabby.


The sharpest lens I have - apart from maybe the Jupiter-8 I have for the Zorki-4 - is on my Yashica GT. And that's a consumer rangefinder. It was way over-specced really, but good if you want to shoot at 1.7 in the dark.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 22, 2013)

I just dug out the Ricoh KR-10 body that I have, and put a Rikenon 50/2 lens on it (as per the ebay link I posted - no affiliation obviously and there are dozens for the same kit) and it's terrific.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

Those Contax/Yashica jobs look amazing value.

I forgot to mention I wear specs....


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## ChrisD (Sep 22, 2013)

I've had a Pentax K1000 since 1977. Dropped it down the himalayas once and it still worked. Very little to go wrong. Brilliant for learning the basics.

 Actually I haven't used it for over 10 years but this summer got it out and battery still working.  I now have digital Pentax but haven't found the old lenses any use on new camera.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

Look at this from camera-wiki:


> While every brand has its adherents, optical testing has generally shown that Zeiss AE/MM lenses were among the sharpest ever made for a production 35mm SLR. Adapters to use Zeiss T* AE/MM lenses on other cameras, most notably Canon digital SLR's, have proved popular.


So you get your bargain C/Y body and Zeiss lenses, later on you get a Canon digital body, bob's your uncle.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 22, 2013)

Been reading about the "Carl Zeiss Planar 1:0,7/50 mm...the fastest available photographic lens. This super-fast variant was only used by NASA for espionage tasks and by Stanley Kubrick to film scenes with just candle light." Here's a site with stills from those scenes - one of my fave films. It always struck me as having a unique look but I never thought about why or how http://www.marcocavina.com/omaggio_a_kubrick.htm


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## fractionMan (Sep 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Thanks everyone. I'm starting to get excited. If I end up graduating to a digital SLR body will I able to use my 35mm lenses? I bet that's a really stupid question, innit?



you can on a pentax - I use an 80s bit of glass that was designed for film on my DSLR and everything like autofocus etc works fine.  I use a manual 50mm prime too.

I think I bought it with a film body attached for about 30 or 40 quid.  It's an 80's slab like wonder.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

editor said:


> There's loads to choose from - so long as it's got manual controls. I'd look at the likes of the Pentax K1000, Nikon FM/FM2n, Canon AE1 or my fave, Olympus OM1/OM2.



Absolutely.  And if money is an issue, there are loads of "badge-engineered" manual SLRs around, stuff like the Centon K100 (built by the Chinese on the old Pentax K1000 production-line equipment) and a host of Vivitars, Chinons, Ricohs and Cosinas that all use the K-mount and the basic Pentax K1000 design.

In fact, I'll have a rummage through my ammo cases (full of cameras!), as I may have a Ricoh KR-10 (auto and manual K-mount slr) going spare.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Thanks everyone. I'm starting to get excited. If I end up graduating to a digital SLR body will I able to use my 35mm lenses? I bet that's a really stupid question, innit?



Right, Frumious B. I've just had a check through my boxes of cameras (yes, boxes!), and I've got a Ricoh KR-10 body in full working order (just put fresh batteries in it), _gratis_ if you want it (all it will cost you is postage).  PM me if you're interested. It takes K-mount lenses, so there's a whole host of reasonably priced 2nd-hand glass available for it, most of which will mount and work on pentax digital SLRs.
The manual for the KR-10 is available free online from various sources, if you want to see what I'm offering.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

dessiato said:


> I used a Ricoh for years, with a range of lenses. I'd recommend it. But the best 35mm I ever had was a Nikon. I bought it second hand about fifteen years or more ago. It still works.



Most electro-mechanical cameras will last 40 or 50 years if you look after them.  My 1962 Pentax Spotmatic F still shoots as smoothly as the day it was made!


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> In the Brixton Stn Rd market yesterday one of the vintage tat stalls had a Pentax ME with a huge lens, about 8" long. Can't remember what it was, I'd never heard of the mfr, but it was £30 all in. At those prices there must be a few freebies on freecycle etc.



The ME is nice, but it's aperture priority automatic only, no manual setting.


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## Greebo (Sep 23, 2013)

Incidentally, if you're wondering why VP has cameras going spare, it's because his hands aren't often up to using them, but he enjoys collecting them on the off chance that he might use them.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I like the sound of Nikon, just because it smacks of '70s war correspondents and all that. And I have a notion that way back when it was always Nikkor that had the widest range of unusual lenses.



Weirdly enough, it wasn't the Nikon F slrs that were most beloved of war photographers, despite what Dennis Hopper has draped around his neck in "Apocalypse Now", it was the Nikon S rangefinder cameras (Nikon's more robust take on the classic Contax III rangefinder camera).


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

discokermit said:


> yashica fx-d, fifteen quid,
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yashica-F...382108?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item565b34eadc
> 
> ...



Robust too.  A mate used to use these for deer-stalking, and his cameras took loads of knocks without breaking, including being dropped about 12ft onto rocks. Busted his lens to fuck, though.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is the thing, you need to pick underappreciated brands with good glass for them to really get the best value for money. Nikons are terrific but very well known.



And Nikon glass holds its' value in a way no other manufacturer's lenses do.  Now personally, I think that *part* of that is down to mystique, but at least some of it is due to them making very good lenses.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

discokermit said:


> that's the thing with yashica, massively overlooked, considering kyocera also made the well regarded contax. plus on the fx-d, the leatherette patches disintegrate pretty quickly, leaving it looking pretty shabby.



There used to be a camera place in York that imported leather (rather than leatherette) panel replacement kits for Yashicas all the way from the US, as it wasn't just the FX-D that had leatherette pox.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

ChrisD said:


> I've had a Pentax K1000 since 1977. Dropped it down the himalayas once and it still worked. Very little to go wrong. Brilliant for learning the basics.
> 
> Actually I haven't used it for over 10 years but this summer got it out and battery still working.  I now have digital Pentax but haven't found the old lenses any use on new camera.



I've still got my K1000.  The meter is u/s (and Pentax UK haven't had the parts to repair K1000 meters for the last 10 years), but the rest of it still works fine.
The only prob with the K1000 is the sheer weight of them!


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Those Contax/Yashica jobs look amazing value.
> 
> I forgot to mention I wear specs....



Short or long-sighted?  Either way, you can get corrective dioptre lenses and fit them to an eyepiece on your camera, up to about plus and minus 3.5 dioptres in half dioptre steps.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The sharpest lens I have - apart from maybe the Jupiter-8 I have for the Zorki-4 - is on my Yashica GT. And that's a consumer rangefinder. It was way over-specced really, but good if you want to shoot at 1.7 in the dark.



The GT/GS/GTN/GSN range are fantastic cameras, the only prob being the battery.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Right, Frumious B. I've just had a check through my boxes of cameras (yes, boxes!), and I've got a Ricoh KR-10 body in full working order (just put fresh batteries in it), _gratis_ if you want it (all it will cost you is postage).  PM me if you're interested. It takes K-mount lenses, so there's a whole host of reasonably priced 2nd-hand glass available for it, most of which will mount and work on pentax digital SLRs.
> The manual for the KR-10 is available free online from various sources, if you want to see what I'm offering.


Cor, that would be brilliant, thank you! I'm going to leap off the sofa and go to Photofusion to give them the good news!


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Cor, that would be brilliant, thank you! I'm going to leap off the sofa and go to Photofusion to give them the good news!



No probs.
Postage would be £3 for 1st class, or £4.10 for 1st class signed for.  If you PM me your address, I'll PM you my Paypal details, and Greebo can stick the camera in the post tomorrow.


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## fractionMan (Sep 24, 2013)

Nice one ViolentPanda What a gent


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## fractionMan (Sep 24, 2013)

You might want to try and find a Pentax M f1.7 50mm to go with that.  They're about 30 quid in good condition second hand, but sometimes can be had for less on ebay.  It's a great lens, one of my faves on my digital body.  Fully manual so you'll learn a ton.

Here's a buy it now in great condition at 31 quid: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pentax-M-...=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item2582dbd8f1

Also, there's a 28mm SMC coming up in 4 hours with no bids on it.  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMC-Penta...=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item2a317ed033


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> Nice one ViolentPanda What a gent



Not a gent, a pragmatist.  I haven't used that particular camera since my parents' 45th anniversary, 7 years ago, so what better than to pass it on to someone who'll benefit from it, learn the noble art of photography properly on a fully manual camera, and not pick up all the bad habits?


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> You might want to try and find a Pentax M f1.7 50mm to go with that.  They're about 30 quid in good condition second hand, but sometimes can be had for less on ebay.  It's a great lens, one of my faves on my digital body.  Fully manual so you'll learn a ton.
> 
> Here's a buy it now in great condition at 31 quid: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pentax-M-...=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item2582dbd8f1
> 
> Also, there's a 28mm SMC coming up in 4 hours with no bids on it.  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMC-Penta...=UK_Lenses_Filters_Lenses&hash=item2a317ed033



T'other thing is, most photographic courses will recommend starting with a prime, generally a 50mm (because it's the closest to your actual visual field), before encouraging you to dabble in zooms (even though you're more likely to get a zoom as a "kit" lens nowadays, than a prime).


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## Crispy (Sep 24, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ...yes and no. You can usually get adaptors but they don't tend to be very good investments, you don't get autofocus or anything sophisticated



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K-mount
With Pentax you do. The control motors in Pentax DSLRs are in the body and can drive the mechanisms in older lenses. I've got a K200 body and it drives Sparrow's dad's old lenses just fine (although you get a cropped portion of the original image size, as the sensor is smaller than 35mm)

EDIT: I am well late to post this information


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 24, 2013)

Crispy said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K-mount
> With Pentax you do. The control motors in Pentax DSLRs are in the body and can drive the mechanisms in older lenses. I've got a K200 body and it drives Sparrow's dad's old lenses just fine (although you get a cropped portion of the original image size, as the sensor is smaller than 35mm)
> 
> EDIT: I am well late to post this information


You're not going to get autofocus on most old K-mount lenses even with a Pentax body because, well, they're manual.


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## Crispy (Sep 24, 2013)

K-AF2 mount, on the other hand...
I might be misremembering my success with this


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

Crispy said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_K-mount
> With Pentax you do. The control motors in Pentax DSLRs are in the body and can drive the mechanisms in older lenses. I've got a K200 body and it drives Sparrow's dad's old lenses just fine (although you get a cropped portion of the original image size, as the sensor is smaller than 35mm)



A 28mm is a good one on a camera with an APS-C sensor - equiv to about 42mm on a full-frame SLR, 



> EDIT: I am well late to post this information



Just a little bit.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 24, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You're not going to get autofocus on most old K-mount lenses even with a Pentax body because, well, they're manual.



I mostly end up setting my AF lenses to MF. I just can't get in the habit of letting them auto-focus! 
I'm happy to let my digi-compact autofocus, but given the choice with an SLR, I revert to old habits!


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## Frumious B. (Sep 24, 2013)

A 50 mm lens was already on my scrounging shopping list because pretty much the only thing I know is that it's the nearest thing to a human eye. If all goes well I'll start the course in Jan, so I have plenty of time to rustle up a lens. 

If you learn photography from scratch is it usual to start with film? Don't people just plunge straight into digital these days?

The course will be at Photofusion, and it should be free for people who claim income-related benefits. Photofusion have been doing a free City and Guilds course for a while, with the fees for benefit claimants funded by Lambeth. Lambeth recently withdrew funding  but Photofusion are optimistic that they'll get funding from Richmond. And the course will morph from a C&G one to a Btec.  Apparently a v similar syllabus.


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## fractionMan (Sep 24, 2013)

My mate spent most of his first year photography degree playing with film.


My pentax film camera currently has a modern crop frame zoom that's stuck on 17mm mounted on it.  Vingettes a fair bit but I think I'm gonna get some cool shots out of it.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> A 50 mm lens was already on my scrounging shopping list because pretty much the only thing I know is that it's the nearest thing to a human eye. If all goes well I'll start the course in Jan, so I have plenty of time to rustle up a lens.
> 
> If you learn photography from scratch is it usual to start with film? Don't people just plunge straight into digital these days?



Some do.

There's still, IMO, a lot to be said for learning on a film camera, though.  The finite number of frames per film makes you consider and pre-visualise your shots better, which in turn makes you consider composition a lot more deeply/helps you develop your "eye" for a good shot.
There's also the darkroom side, of course, which also stands you in good stead if you ever want to dev your own films, or use alternative printing processes like cyanotype, gum bichromate or van Dyck printing.
I suspect that the photography C & G hasn't changed much in 30 years, and it was enjoyable back when I did it (or, I did about 3/4 of the course, then dropped out as I got a night job), and my G-dson found it enjoyable when he did it about 10 years ago.



> The course will be at Photofusion, and it should be free for people who claim income-related benefits. Photofusion have been doing a free City and Guilds course for a while, with the fees for benefit claimants funded by Lambeth. Lambeth recently withdrew funding  but Photofusion are optimistic that they'll get funding from Richmond. And the course will morph from a C&G one to a Btec.  Apparently a v similar syllabus.



They've been talking about consolidating across the BTec and C & G syllabuses for donkey's years.  I'm amazed they've finally got round to it!


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> My mate spent most of his first year photography degree playing with film.
> 
> 
> My pentax film camera currently has a modern crop frame zoom that's stuck on 17mm mounted on it.  Vingettes a fair bit but I think I'm gonna get some cool shots out of it.



I suppose I'm a bit old-fashioned, but to me learning on a dslr would be learning on a camera with too many options, if you see what I mean.  I'm strongly of the opinion that if you can get the basics down with a fairly limited-option film camera, you learn all the "good" lessons about photography that'll stand you in good stead in the future, including the lesson that it's not about your gear, it's about your eye for a picture.


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## fractionMan (Sep 25, 2013)

Same with most skills imo, you have to get a solid grip of the underlying basics first.  Walk before you run.


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## Riklet (Dec 8, 2019)

Looking to buy a film camera as a present for xmas.

Under 100 quid all in if possible.. preferably less but will go for quality and durability. Has to be up to some travelling in South America.

Any tips/recommendations?


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 8, 2019)

what sort of camera and for whom (i.e. will they know what they are doing)?

Prices have gone up a lot, particularly for point-and-shoot cameras, but there are still some bargains around.


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## Riklet (Dec 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> what sort of camera and for whom (i.e. will they know what they are doing)?
> 
> Prices have gone up a lot, particularly for point-and-shoot cameras, but there are still some bargains around.



Good question. Im not really sure tbh. She doesnt have any camera only a camera phone but seems into photography. I cant spend too much but just wanna get something solid which could be used for fun amateur photography and if she enjoys using it could stand a trip in south america for a few months. So I suppose durability and reliability is a factor. My mate recommended a Canon AE1. As you said prices seem higher than a websites from a few years back claim. Any other bargain models which would be a fun reliable intro?

Obvs the other option is a second hand but still decent digital camera.. just thought I'd look into film first.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 9, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Good question. Im not really sure tbh. She doesnt have any camera only a camera phone but seems into photography. I cant spend too much but just wanna get something solid which could be used for fun amateur photography and if she enjoys using it could stand a trip in south america for a few months. So I suppose durability and reliability is a factor. My mate recommended a Canon AE1. As you said prices seem higher than a websites from a few years back claim. Any other bargain models which would be a fun reliable intro?
> 
> Obvs the other option is a second hand but still decent digital camera.. just thought I'd look into film first.


The AE-1 is one of the cameras that's gone up in price - it's pretty random, suddenly the internet gets an idea that one model is valuable and the price triples (and never goes down again). There's nothing particularly outstanding about the AE-1, it was one of many consumer SLRs, it works fine but so do many other things.

In the UK, the Pentax ME Super seems to still go for reasonably low prices - those are good cameras and have an auto exposure mode which is useful for beginners. They're also very small. I've used an MX (very similar, just more manual) for years as a travel camera. Of course there's always the issue of people selling rubbish that doesn't work on eBay... but that's always going to be a potential problem.

You do still need to know a little bit about how these things work to take any decent pictures though, and there's the associated cost of developing and scanning. While I shoot loads of film, I'd still sound this person out first as to whether they'd be interested at all.


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## stowpirate (Dec 19, 2019)

Praktica or Zenit. Really cheap cameras albeit difficult to find the best one which is the Zenit 3m. As for lenses mostly of German Zeiss origin so first class quality.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 19, 2019)

Prakticas are also good, though I wouldn't recommend some of the earlier ones for new users. You can get a Praktica BX20 for 30 quid or less these days, and those are quite advanced and have proper lenses. A full set of zooms still goes for buttons and it's all good quality East German glass.

Makes me want to take my old BX20 with the pancake 50/2.4 out.


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## Riklet (Dec 28, 2019)

I ended up buying an OM-20 in the end, was in good condition from a local shop for 85 quid... not bad at all! A very well received present btw.

I havent shot any film since I was a kid and looking into SLR cameras and watching a few Youtube videos has got me all interested. So I am actually thinking of getting one too. Gonna look locally again before ebay... thanks for the tip on the Pentax ME Super. Im leaning towards another Olympus if I see anything reasonably priced tho.


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## weltweit (Dec 28, 2019)

I occassionaly think that I wouldn't mind shooting 35mm film again.

I used to like the process, take your pics send the film away and after a pause get to see the prints.

I used to have many more prints than I have now with digital ..

Then I kick myself, the quality of my images is so much better now than back when I was shooting film. I only had an instamatic after all..


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 28, 2019)

You can't really compare snaps from a cheap compact on crappy consumer film sent to a one-hour-photo lab to... well, anything decent.

I'm currently scanning some Kodachromes that my dad took and I brought back over xmas and they are frankly quite lovely.


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## Riklet (Dec 29, 2019)

FridgeMagnet  Pentax me super seemingly in good condition going for 22 quid on ebay currently.... only a few hours left.

dead tempted to get a cheeky late bid in. 

Also a Praktica MTL5 going for 50 squid on gumtree. Worth considering? Looks a fair bit trickier for a newbie!


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 29, 2019)

Riklet said:


> FridgeMagnet  Pentax me super seemingly in good condition going for 22 quid on ebay currently.... only a few hours left.
> 
> dead tempted to get a cheeky late bid in.
> 
> Also a Praktica MTL5 going for 50 squid on gumtree. Worth considering? Looks a fair bit trickier for a newbie!


That Praktica is an old model, I wouldn't bother with it (also quite a lot for it). The newer "B mount" ones are more what you'd want IMO - BX20, B100, a few different models beginning with "B". They are more modern and also use batteries that you can actually buy, which is kind of useful.

That would be a pretty good price for an ME Super with a lens.


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## Riklet (Jan 5, 2020)

Ok so I got an old Praktica MTL 5 B off a facebook group for 10 quid. Quite exciting bit of DDR kit even if I dont end up using it much! Think the spring on the lens for apperture is gone cos it doesnt open and close adjusting it with the lens off. Too bad! The battery cover was jammed shut but got it off with a coin.. some corrosion from leaking battery inside. Good news is it's an AG13 zinc battery not mercury! 

I might need to invest in another (more newbie friendly) fully working camera from a shop but if I can get this one working for cheapy cheap It'll still be fun to learn something on. Fully manual and pretty solid. I quite like the button on the front, too.


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