# EnglishWelsh Defence League, British Campaign agin Muslim Extremist, Causuals United



## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

Ok there was some discussion here 
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=294159&highlight=extremism

but this is getting potentially very serious .. not only do we have the below sites there are now over 30 club based Casuals United sites with hundreds of members .. the politics is angry and frustrated e.g. this from the WDL 

*"A group dedicated to protecting the interests of Welsh people.

From exposing paedophiles, to protesting about Terrorists in our midst, its time the Taffies stood up to be counted.

We are a peaceful protest group, and will organise mass protests when and where needed to protect our people from abuse and having the piss taken out of them.

This is not a racist/Nazi group and those people are not wanted here.

We want normal people who are fed up with having the piss taken out of them and are ready to unite and stand up to be counted.

Our forefathers didnt fight off the Germans and give their lives so we could let a load of foreigners of a certain religion (i wont name it as id probably get arrested) come into our country, then give them money so they can sit around planning to bomb us, poison us or otherwise kill us. They would turn in their graves at a country that after terror attacks instead of throwing these people out, passes laws that mean British people who insult them can be jailed. What have we become? Every day we hear that terrorists have been caught working airside in airports, and at Cardiff airport, all the trainee aircraft technicians are of arab descent. How long before a tragedy happens there?"

IN LEAGUE WITH CASUALS UNITED WE HAVE A LOT OF PROTESTS SET UP AROUND THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE OF ALL RACES ARE WELCOME TO JOIN US
*

I think this demands some serious thought . the demo on the 8th in Brum is happenning and UAF have called a counter demo .. this is POTENTIALLY disasterously counter productive 

while it is clear that there are BNP and fascists within EDL/BCAME/CU it is also clear the many of the admins are NOT associated with BNP .. it is also clear there are millions of increasingly angry and frustrated white .. and with good reason .. but who  in classic fashion are picking on a scapegoat INSTEAD of the real powers 

and in the same way, that as ALWAYS, you do NOT change peoples minds by shouting slogans particularly here we must not allow it to be seen that hundreds of white youth are opposed by the left and attacked for being fascist .. because that will SURELY push them into the arms of the BNP 

i have more info if anyone wants to pm me 

*British Citizens against Muslim extremists 

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=533860939&ref=profile#/group.php?gid=107676721904&ref=mf

English & Welsh Defence League: British citizens against Sharia Law

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=533860939&ref=profile#/event.php?eid=112121489240

Casuals United 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=107676721904&ref=mf&__a=1#/group.php?gid=98350156121&ref=ts

Welsh Defence League Incorporating Casuals United 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=107676721904&ref=mf&__a=1#/group.php?gid=43286850802&ref=mf


*


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## editor (Jul 28, 2009)

They're all fucking Facebook sites. They're meaningless. Any twat can make up 100 profiles in a day and sign them all up to their own 'campaign' site. People will sign up to any old shit on Facebook and the day that people start mistaking small Facebook groups as some sort of barometer of political movement in the UK is a fucking sad one.

Fuck knows why you're giving them the oxygen of publicity here.


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## tar1984 (Jul 28, 2009)

They sound like twats.


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## tarannau (Jul 28, 2009)

Racist football casuals? Whatever next...


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> I think this demands some serious thought . the demo on the 8th in Brum is happenning and UAF have called a counter demo .. this is POTENTIALLY disasterously counter productive


bollocks, they're a bunch oif racist fuckwits, most of whom probably ARE in the BNP but who think it makes more sense to pretend not to be.  there is absolutely no way you can honestly say it is 'clear the many of the admins are NOT associated with BNP' - not unless you are one of those admins, which i doubt. 

It's a racist rally, and 'durutti' thinks it should be allowed to happen without opposition.


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

editor said:


> They're all fucking Facebook sites. They're meaningless. Any twat can make up 100 profiles in a day and sign them all up to their own 'campaign' site. People will sign up to any old shit on Facebook and the day that people start mistaking small Facebook groups as some sort of barometer of political movement in the UK is a fucking sad one.
> 
> Fuck knows why you're giving them the oxygen of publicity here.



excuse me?  they are just the face books .. i don't have all their private groups but we know they exist, as i am sure you know, the soul crew have theirs 

this group has already pulled a number of stunts .. pulling several hundred in brum in July and doing stunts in Whitechapel and Wood Green .. they are likely to get maybe a thousend out in Brum on the 8th Sept as they have timed it for the football .. if you can not see the danger in all this you are frankly daft mate .. this has a potential to turn VERY nasty


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

belboid said:


> bollocks, they're a bunch oif racist fuckwits, most of whom probably ARE in the BNP but who think it makes more sense to pretend not to be.  there is absolutely no way you can honestly say it is 'clear the many of the admins are NOT associated with BNP' - not unless you are one of those admins, which i doubt.
> 
> It's a racist rally, and 'durutti' thinks it should be allowed to happen without opposition.



 classic belboid! .. have you looked into this? NO! so shut up till you have ok? you clearly don't understand facebook either


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

i understand it better than you eejit.  

when are you gonna change your name btw? the original durutti was actually an anti-fascist, not someone who kept squealing 'ooh, they've got a point you know'


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## editor (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> excuse me?  they are just the face books .. i don't have all their private groups but we know they exist, as i am sure you know, the soul crew have theirs
> 
> this group has already pulled a number of stunts .. pulling several hundred in brum in July and doing stunts in Whitechapel and Wood Green .. they are likely to get maybe a thousend out in Brum on the 8th Sept as they have timed it for the football .. if you can not see the danger in all this you are frankly daft mate .. this has a potential to turn VERY nasty


Don't do lists of unexplained YouTube links, sorry.


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

belboid said:


> bollocks, they're a bunch oif racist fuckwits, most of whom probably ARE in the BNP but who think it makes more sense to pretend not to be.  there is absolutely no way you can honestly say it is 'clear the many of the admins are NOT associated with BNP' - not unless you are one of those admins, which i doubt.



"Where is there to start im writing this now after a ginuine new start..............I am 18 (Have it!) Im 6,2, Im half English and half Trinidadian And i am very proud of my heritage!.  ..     Havent made my mind up yet, but im liking Lib dems. All i know is that Bnp and nf can Fuck themselfs" Casual United admin or tell me why two others have the same bengali muslim 'friend' .. this is more compliated than you want it to be


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## tarannau (Jul 28, 2009)

Well, if he's written that he MUST be genuine.


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## Rod Sleeves (Jul 28, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Well, if he's written that he MUST be genuine.



Yep, mock the language ignore the political consequences.


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> "Where is there to start im writing this now after a ginuine new start..............I am 18 (Have it!) Im 6,2, Im half English and half Trinidadian And i am very proud of my heritage!.  ..     Havent made my mind up yet, but im liking Lib dems. All i know is that Bnp and nf can Fuck themselfs"



you're not really that gullible are you?


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

editor said:


> Don't do lists of unexplained YouTube links, sorry.


 you can be hard work ed  

they are vids of EDL/Casuals United demos in birmingham, couple of hundred people, wood green, a dozen and whitechapel, a dozen. 

dismiss this at your peril


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

belboid said:


> you're not really that gullible are you?


 just fuck off .. the geeza is in all the vids .. don't chat shit about what you know nothing


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Yep, mock the language ignore the political consequences.


 indeed .. typical leftist response


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

what do you propse then?  you dismissed the idea of a counter-demo


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> donlt chat shit about what you knwo nothing



sorry, thats your forte isnt it


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

belboid said:


> what do you propse then?  you dismissed the idea of a counter-demo


 wtf .. you gone polite now? you insult belittle? take the piss? which hat you got on now? should i bother to reply to you?


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## Stoat Boy (Jul 28, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> They sound like twats.




They do. But they are also 'twats' who are willing to organise and engage in street demonstrations in not only a confrontational manner but in places that would be best defined as 'enemy' territory.

Slate them as much as you want if it makes you feel better about yourselves but it strikes me that the fact that a predominantely working class 'movement' can emerge and the only arguement the left can have is about whether to oppose them or not says it all.

Maybe the left should be looking to engage with them. Ooops, silly me. Its working class white people involved. Not really the lefts cup of tea is it ?


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

to prove you're a bigger better person?  to show you have a clue?  i dunno, i expect you wont


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> just fuck off .. the geeza is in all the vids .. don't chat shit about what you know nothing



having just watched the whitechapel & brum vids, there doesnt appear to be anyone who might fit that description there (unless they're narrating, no sound on here).

Even if there is, one token hardly changes anything, the BNP often use a sikh bloke to attack muslims in their ppb's, that doesnt make a difference does it?

This is a racist demonstration, called by racists, with an explicitly racist agenda.  you dont think it should be opposed, even tho the whole thing has the 'potential to turn very nasty'


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

belboid said:


> to prove you're a bigger better person?  to show you have a clue?  i dunno, i expect you wont


 belboid you know nothing about me .. fuck all .. IF you are serious about this please discuss if not fuck off .. i have NO personal ego shit involved .. ask anyone  who knows me .. i do not give a flying fuck about being a 'bigger better person' 

it is simple if you wish to discuss these groups lets do so .. you may well be 100% right .. at this moment in time i think you are not 

is this a deal?


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

belboid said:


> having just watched the whitechapel & brum vids, there doesnt appear to be anyone who might fit that description there (unless they're narrating, no sound on here).
> 
> Even if there is, one token hardly changes anything, the BNP often use a sikh bloke to attack muslims in their ppb's, that doesnt make a difference does it?
> 
> This is a racist demonstration, called by racists, with an explicitly racist agenda.  you dont think it should be opposed, even tho the whole thing has the 'potential to turn very nasty'



he is sat down in the whitechapel vid .. but there are clearly BNP in here and on the lists ( have you joined and read all the comments yet? cos tbh until you have are you qualified to talk about them?


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

well, go on then, discuss.  if tere shouldnt be a counter-demo to this racist shite, what should there be?

otherwise all you're doing is advertising a racist demo


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## Spion (Jul 28, 2009)

I'm still waiting for Durruttti to give us his ideas on how to deal with this


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> cos tbh until you have are you qualified to talk about them?



lol

love the way you contradict yourself immediately.

any chance of you answering the question?


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

belboid said:


> well, go on then, discuss.  if tere shouldnt be a counter-demo to this racist shite, what should there be?
> 
> otherwise all you're doing is advertising a racist demo


 you really are a twat sometimes belboid .. i am obviously NOT just advertising a racist demo but hey 


and you know what i am not quite sure .. was actually hoping people could discuss it seriously .. let me turn it back to you ( i will answer better further on) .. ok you say quite clearly it is a racist rally "This is a racist demonstration, called by racists, with an explicitly racist agenda" 

... therefore as an anti fascist YOU must support attacking it (and spion too) .. am i right in this?  

personally i think that this is a provocation set up by BNP and other activists .. and to walk into it in the way they want us to would be disasterous .. what both the islamofascist and the bnp want is white ( and a few black)  kids and asian kids fighting .. and the BNP who LOVE to see the anti fascists attacking these white kids .. that to me is the danger .. are you seriously telling me you 1) can not see this and 2) that it would be no different from attacking a nazi march 

and please HAVE you read through these sites yet . as i say until you have i am not sure you know what you are talking about


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

a counter-demo HAS to include attacking it? not necesarilly.  it can simply be a counter-demo, peacefully blocking the streets, making the police act in defense of racists 'rights'.  Obviously if those racists choose to attack the counter-demo, there should be a proportinate response. Get them to expose themselves. ABC stuff really


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## treelover (Jul 28, 2009)

ABC for Trots, you mean, other groups are considering engaging with these youths...


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

'considering' it are they??!!  that's useful.

whatever long-term solutions are required, there is also a short-term need for the specific action to be opposed


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 28, 2009)

I am still a bit puzzled as to why counter-demos to this particular gang of bigots are seen as being counter-productive, when - I assume here, correct me if I'm wrong - counter-demos to BNP marches aren't. Is it because they say they're not racists?


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## Spion (Jul 28, 2009)

treelover said:


> ABC for Trots, you mean, other groups are considering engaging with these youths...


I expect you'll be joining them, uncritically. And then on Urban you'd be spunking everywhere about how it's 'the new face of the working class movement'.


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## dylans (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> wtf .. you gone polite now? you insult belittle? take the piss? which hat you got on now? should i bother to reply to you?



Ok I will ask the question.you dismiss the idea of a counter demo

you defend this group as not being racist, though they clearly are anti muslim racists.

You attack those that wish to organise opposition

So what do you propose except ignore them, pander to them and appease them?

They should be driven off the streets on the 8th. Alliances need to be built with Birmingham asian community. And these racists fucks need to be shown that Birmingham won't tolerate this racist shit in our city. 

What won't work is the pathetic apologising that you continually make for these racists. They are not "concerned with extremism" they are anti muslim racists.


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## treelover (Jul 28, 2009)

@editors post about facebook, 


it may be inconsequetial but surely it gives an insight into how some sub groups are feeling about politics, the UKk , etc, and yes they are having some success mobilising using facebook.


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## Raw SslaC (Jul 28, 2009)

I like to echo Durutti's concerns about what is happening. What we are seeing here is a section of the class that is being mobilised on nationalism becuase of a percieved threat - jihadists and more widely Islam in the UK. This is potentially a premature fascist movement as it has all the ingredients. It will either develop politically or fizzle out. Already the language and tone of what is being said is hardening. 

Casuals United was formed by Jeff Marsh ex-hooli from Barry Town SoulCrew, Wales. You can read about his exploits (inc. stabbing a couple of Man U fans) in his recent book  . English and Welsh Defence League was set-up to accomodate "non-casuals". 
Initally the FB group had within its description "No Nazi's, No BNP, No NF, No Racists..." two weeks ago the "No BNP" part was taken out. In Luton during the March for England (which has nothing to do with CU or EDF) there was one placard saying "NF go to Hell" -- it could be sectarianism, though I think generally people (even racists) don't like to be associated with any neo-fascist party, mainly I think because they don't have the politics to defend their association.

I'm not sure whats going to happen on August 8th. Its after the Villa vs Fiorentina friendly, and the demo is in the late evening 6pm - 9pm. Means alot of people would have been drinking all day (even the young "muslims"). It is more than likely going to kick off - loads of cops, groups of young asian lads, penned in UAF/ANL/SWP, groups of casuals having a go sporadically at any non-white people. Basically a complete nightmare. That is one scenario. Alternatively, only 100 or so turn up, get chanted down, everyone gets demoralised and all the organisers in Casuals United either stand for election for English First Party or BNP in next years election.

Anyhow, got a plate of fishfingers waiting for me.


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## Spion (Jul 28, 2009)

dylans said:


> Birmingham won't tolerate this racist shit in *our *city.


A Brummie? That used to live in Cambodia? Can't be many of them about  Do I know you?


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## belboid (Jul 28, 2009)

treelover said:


> @editors post about facebook,
> 
> 
> it may be inconsequetial but surely it gives an insight into how some sub groups are feeling about politics, the UKk , etc, and yes they are having some success mobilising using facebook.



does it? there is no real way of knowing whether these groups have a couple of members of several hundred (the member 'count' on the pages being all but meaningless) so you cant tell if it is an insight into a 'sub group', or a couple of mates, or a couple of nutters.


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## purplex (Jul 28, 2009)

This is the BNP slyly engaging the w/c in their politics, engaging with their traditional foot soldiers, the football firms.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 28, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Racist football casuals? Whatever next...



They can't possibly be racististist. They actually say they aren't so they can't be.
Glad to clarify for you.


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## Raw SslaC (Jul 28, 2009)

purplex said:


> This is the BNP slyly engaging the w/c in their politics, engaging with their traditional foot soldiers, the football firms.



I agree. Chris Renton - BNP Organiser in Weston-super-mare setup the english defence league website. Also there was a history with FYC (Fine Young Casuals) in Oldham who were involved in the race riots back in 2001. There also has been many times when football firms have told BNP/NF/C18 to fuck off.


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

dylans said:


> Ok I will ask the question.you dismiss the idea of a counter demo
> 
> you defend this group as not being racist, though they clearly are anti muslim racists.
> 
> ...



ok to start with have you been following all the chat in these sites? cos if you have not you don't know what you are commenting on so my reply to you would be meaningless .. go and check it all out then come back to me


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> I agree. Chris Renton - BNP Organiser in Weston-super-mare setup the english defence league website. Also there was a history with FYC (Fine Young Casuals) in Oldham who were involved in the race riots back in 2001. There also has been many times when football firms have told BNP/NF/C18 to fuck off.


 and this is surely the crux of the matter .. do we give up on all these people? because they are clearly BNP manipulaters in the background most of the punters will be ordinary w/c people ..


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## treelover (Jul 28, 2009)

A peaceful low key oppositional presence may work, but UAF shouting 'nazis out' or even more physical confrontation, to 19 yr old lads many who have said repeatedly they are not, certainly won't.


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## Karac (Jul 28, 2009)

Sort of interesting how these types have rebranded themselves as the English and Welsh Defence league-obviously given up on Scotland and Northern Ireland.


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## smokedout (Jul 28, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> I like to echo Durutti's concerns about what is happening. What we are seeing here is a section of the class that is being mobilised on nationalism becuase of a percieved threat - jihadists and more widely Islam in the UK. This is potentially a premature fascist movement as it has all the ingredients.



i'm not sure it is as yet, no doubt there are fash attempting to pull the strings, but the majority of those involved seem be  closer to extreme conservatives with a little bit of racism thrown in 

it may develop in a more radical direction, but i do think the continued denouncement of racism, fascism etc are probably genuine amongst most of them, even if there might be an element of im not rascist but ...


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## Spion (Jul 28, 2009)

purplex said:


> This is the BNP slyly engaging the w/c in their politics, engaging with their traditional foot soldiers, the football firms.


and the NF remnants


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## Raw SslaC (Jul 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and this is surely the crux of the matter .. do we give up on all these people? because they are clearly BNP manipulaters in the background most of the punters will be ordinary w/c people ..



Though D, fascism has also had "ordinary w/c people" involved - sometimes in their millions. I don't think it is solely BNP manipulators, theres is a conscious decision out of all the turmoil in the economy they pick a muslims as their target???! I think we can get bogged down in understanding their "position" and forget that they have a choice to make - either they continue creating counter-productive, reactinary marches or get involved in targetting the real root problem - capitalism. 

Simplistic I know.


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## purplex (Jul 28, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> I agree. Chris Renton - BNP Organiser in Weston-super-mare setup the english defence league website. Also there was a history with FYC (Fine Young Casuals) in Oldham who were involved in the race riots back in 2001. There also has been many times when football firms have told BNP/NF/C18 to fuck off.



Indeed, Man United for example, but plenty of firms have been infiltrated by the right-wing in the past. The right have often used the angst in these lads and the organization of the firms to their own ends.


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## durruti02 (Jul 28, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> Though D, fascism has also had "ordinary w/c people" involved - sometimes in their millions. I don't think it is solely BNP manipulators, theres is a conscious decision out of all the turmoil in the economy they pick a muslims as their target???! I think we can get bogged down in understanding their "position" and forget that they have a choice to make - either they continue creating counter-productive, reactinary marches or get involved in targetting the real root problem - capitalism.
> 
> Simplistic I know.



 yep don't disagree .. it's how we do it!


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## sonny61 (Jul 28, 2009)

From what I know of football firms and the people who make them up, they tend to fall into the Tory working class category.
I am sure there are some ''fascists'' there.

The problem for those on here who want to physically confront them, are that they will be veterans of many street battles. They fight because they like it, not for any political motives.

And when it comes to street fighting they are not stupid. They will look to pick of the opposition before and after the main event, where there are less police around.
It really depends on how hard core football thugs they are, who will turn up on the day.

If it is serious members of some football firms planning to turn up, then the UAF or antifa will be no match for them.
What could turn the tables on them, are if young Muslims turn up to fight them. But this is what they what, from what I can see.

Maybe it will turn out to be a non event anyway.


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## belboid (Jul 29, 2009)

treelover said:


> A peaceful low key oppositional presence may work, but UAF shouting 'nazis out' or even more physical confrontation, to 19 yr old lads many who have said repeatedly they are not, certainly won't.



that sounds..wrohless.  Smaller than the demo its opposing?  Quieter?  Sio that no llne nitces it?  What would be the point?  Simply shouting 'nazi's out' wouldnt be much cop, I'd rather taking the piss with some more footballs style chants, but thats not tha main issue really. A demo like this, from which racist violence would almost definitely follow, should be opposed.  There should be as many people as necessary to do that (without making this, probably, pisspoor little stunt seem bigger than it will be).  It should be as noisy as it needs to be to drown the wankers out, and to let others know hat the majority oppose their bullshit.  Anything less would be a pathetic cop out.



durruti02 said:


> yep don't disagree .. it's how we do it!



so, what do you suggest?


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## Stoat Boy (Jul 29, 2009)

I suppose for the left its a case of dammed if you do, dammed if you dont.

Many white working class people percieve the left to have abandoned them for all sorts of reasons. And any sort of organised left wing opposition to this sort of march which would, I imagine, be the sort of thing that a lot of people would agree with the general sentiments off, even if they are a bit daft, merely reinforce that. 

The problem is dealing with the reasons why they feel abandoned in the first place. And to be honest you aint got a clue what to do about that. 

The Tories just pick up the support of the white working classes who have managed to do 'ok' for themselves. They are percieved as a party of aspiration. But for those left behind, well there are very few real choices.


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## lewislewis (Jul 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> Ok there was some discussion here
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=294159&highlight=extremism
> 
> 
> ...



What is this bullshit, as if Welsh people call themselves 'Taffies' anymore. Sounds like a bunch of coked up morons. The irony being that Wales is about 98% white people anyway, and outside of South Wales is about 99.5% white.


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## lewislewis (Jul 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> Ok there was some discussion here
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=294159&highlight=extremism
> 
> while it is clear that there are BNP and fascists within EDL/BCAME/CU it is also clear the many of the admins are NOT associated with BNP .. it is also clear there are millions of increasingly angry and frustrated white .. and with good reason .. but who  in classic fashion are picking on a scapegoat INSTEAD of the real powers



These people are extremely separate from the 'millions of increasingly angry and frustrated whites', they are organised around football firms hence Casuals United, people who are up for violence and far-right politics regardless of whether there's a recession or whatever. They are a minority of morons.


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## lewislewis (Jul 30, 2009)

Karac said:


> Sort of interesting how these types have rebranded themselves as the English and Welsh Defence league-obviously given up on Scotland and Northern Ireland.



That'll be the link from Jeff Marsh the Cardiff City Soul Crew author (originally from Barry). Didn't realise he had these kind of leanings though.


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## tarannau (Jul 30, 2009)

To be honest I'm sick of people making excuses for these morons, alleging that unless folks take note of these concerns 'decent' people will be driven to the BNP.

These people are fucking racist idiots and BNP liabilities in the first place. No more understanding is needed, nor any excuses made for these twats.


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## trevhagl (Jul 30, 2009)

editor said:


> They're all fucking Facebook sites. They're meaningless. Any twat can make up 100 profiles in a day and sign them all up to their own 'campaign' site. People will sign up to any old shit on Facebook and the day that people start mistaking small Facebook groups as some sort of barometer of political movement in the UK is a fucking sad one.
> 
> Fuck knows why you're giving them the oxygen of publicity here.



indeed


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## trevhagl (Jul 30, 2009)

i do wonder how these 'campaigners' will be able to stop-

1) kiddy fiddlers
2) terrorists.

Like, a terrorist is not gonna see some News Of The World fanatics marching through the streets and say "right, i'm giving up bombing, public opinion must be against me!" , or a paedo is not gonna say "oh what i'm doing is wrong, i had better stop!"


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## STFC (Jul 30, 2009)

It's just the No Surrender mob with a different target and a new way to reach the masses (Facebook etc.)


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## trevhagl (Jul 30, 2009)

the problem is that no one decent LIKES kiddy fiddlers or terrorists, so how to argue?

The right wing use these issues because their OTHER beliefs (anti welfare state, anti NHS, anti workers rights) are maybe not so popular with the poor


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## Rod Sleeves (Jul 30, 2009)

STFC said:


> It's just the No Surrender mob with a different target and a new way to reach the masses (Facebook etc.)



You still posting on the UBA forums?


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## STFC (Jul 30, 2009)

I never did.

May 2009 join date? Hmmm...


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2009)

as usual hard and long community buliding work is required to develop confidence again in w/class communities and areas: the IWCA under 12's Football Tournament which saw over 200 people involved and paid for out of IWCA councillors funds, may be a start, better than UAF shouting out tired slogans anyway.

http://www.iwca.info/?p=10144


----------



## belboid (Jul 30, 2009)

doing one doesnt and shouldn't stop anyone doing the other.  It's a dangerous and false dichotomoy to present it as such


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2009)

I look forward to UAF/SWP doing the 'other' I won't hold my breath...


----------



## belboid (Jul 30, 2009)

please do


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jul 30, 2009)

tarannau said:


> To be honest I'm sick of people making excuses for these morons, alleging that unless folks take note of these concerns 'decent' people will be driven to the BNP.
> 
> These people are fucking racist idiots and BNP liabilities in the first place. No more understanding is needed, nor any excuses made for these twats.



Valid points but the primary chant of these people seems to be about 'wanting our country back' and whilst its nothing in itself I think it does represent a pretty much majority view amongst white working class people in this country that the changes of the last 50 or so years have not benefited them.

Now you can argue as to why this perception might be wrong or right but for me it still does not alter the fact that many feel it. 

And they also feel that they have been left behind in many ways by Government and politics on all sorts of levels. 

Now of course the clock cannot be turned back and there never was a 'glorious bygone era' but there is still a great deal of largely subdued anger amongst the group of people who still make up the vast majority of this countrys population about how things have turned out. 

Yes they might be wealthier in terms of material items but there seems to be no real sense of belonging or idea that everybody is pulling in the same direction. These are pretty vague terms for something that I cannot put my finger on but I could summon it up as a desire to be patriotic without really having the social-economic structure to express that through. What is it to be English now ? 

Maybe its a wider thing and that English nationalism is still something that has to find its own true voice but I see nobody from either side of the political fence really wanting to come to grips with it. 

And that means that it has the potential to get very messy. Please note my use of the word potential as I think it could also become something very positive but it seems to be very much unchartered political territory and that people who have tinkered for short term political gain need to really think about what they might be creating for future generations.


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 31, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Valid points but the primary chant of these people seems to be about 'wanting our country back' and whilst its nothing in itself I think it does represent a pretty much majority view amongst white working class people in this country that the changes of the last 50 or so years have not benefited them.
> 
> Now you can argue as to why this perception might be wrong or right but for me it still does not alter the fact that many feel it.
> 
> ...


 well worded post .. i agree


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 31, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> That'll be the link from Jeff Marsh the Cardiff City Soul Crew author (originally from Barry). Didn't realise he had these kind of leanings though.


 yes he seems to be a key player


----------



## durruti02 (Jul 31, 2009)

tarannau said:


> To be honest I'm sick of people making excuses for these morons, alleging that unless folks take note of these concerns 'decent' people will be driven to the BNP.
> 
> These people are fucking racist idiots and BNP liabilities in the first place. No more understanding is needed, nor any excuses made for these twats.



1) are you saying it is illegitimate for people to have concerns about Islamic extremism, particularly after Islamic extremists have killed dozens of people bombs in london? my opinion is "white english" should sort out their own world before condemning anothers.  but if i knew people who had died in london boombs or soldiers who had died in afghanistan maybe i would be less 'political'  

2) 'these people' ffs is EVERYONE THE SAME!! in ANY group there are differrent individuals .. clearly there are BNP clearly there are racists but equally clearly there are non racists and anti BNP .. the issue is how to deal with that 

you like many other people forget that the vast majoroty of people do NOT live in Brixton and are white and see their nation as at least OK and are not happy as to what has happenned to it. . If YOU don't want to understand this majority then fuck off .. because if this majority continue to be drawn to the right we are all fucked and you more than me

we need to be thinking about how to engage with this majority ..


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 31, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> They do. But they are also 'twats' who are willing to organise and engage in street demonstrations in not only a confrontational manner but in places that would be best defined as 'enemy' territory.
> 
> Slate them as much as you want if it makes you feel better about yourselves but it strikes me that the fact that a predominantely working class 'movement' can emerge and the only arguement the left can have is about whether to oppose them or not says it all.
> 
> Maybe the left should be looking to engage with them. Ooops, silly me. Its working class white people involved. Not really the lefts cup of tea is it ?



Sadly very very true.
It shows the extent of the Lefts retreat from class politics to liberal bollocks.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 31, 2009)

tarannau said:


> To be honest I'm sick of people making excuses for these morons, alleging that unless folks take note of these concerns 'decent' people will be driven to the BNP.
> 
> These people are fucking racist idiots and BNP liabilities in the first place. No more understanding is needed, nor any excuses made for these twats.



So what do you propose tarannau? should we ignore or oppose them?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 31, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 1) are you saying it is illegitimate for people to have concerns about Islamic extremism, particularly after Islamic extremists have killed dozens of people bombs in london? my opinion is "white english" should sort out their own world before condemning anothers.  but if i knew people who had died in london boombs or soldiers who had died in afghanistan maybe i would be less 'political'
> 
> 2) 'these people' ffs is EVERYONE THE SAME!! in ANY group there are differrent individuals .. clearly there are BNP clearly there are racists but equally clearly there are non racists and anti BNP .. the issue is how to deal with that
> 
> ...



You cannot surely believe that this is _in any way whatsoever_ a response to or motivated by concern regarding "Islamic extremism". Perhaps "no Irish no Blacks" was motivated by concerns regarding the IRA and black-on-white street crime. You know, the vast majority of people do NOT live in Brixton - and they're white!

BTW Kristallnacht was motivated by concerns about Jewish extremism.


----------



## tbaldwin (Jul 31, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> BTW Kristallnacht was motivated by concerns about Jewish extremism.



What point are you trying to make FM?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 31, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> What point are you trying to make FM?



Oh come on, that's not a hard one, surely. That was the "exaggerated Godwinning-myself make the point really obvious in a crude way" part.


----------



## Bajie (Jul 31, 2009)

Seems to me that this lot would have being going on about the IRA 20 years ago, then like now though it seems more a complex picture than they are all hand in hand with the BNP, but there does sometimes seem to be a lot of crossover between these sorts of groups and organised political parties.


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## Bajie (Jul 31, 2009)

This Mr Angry probably sums up what they all think (link from the depths of their facebook page)

http://www.patcondell.net/index.html


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## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> From what I know of football firms and the people who make them up, they tend to fall into the Tory working class category.
> I am sure there are some ''fascists'' there.
> 
> The problem for those on here who want to physically confront them, are that they will be veterans of many street battles. They fight because they like it, not for any political motives.
> ...



Where on earth did you get your 'political' make up of football 'firms' from?


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 1, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Where on earth did you get your 'political' make up of football 'firms' from?



First hand knowledge. Not that I was involved, but I used to go to football matches for years.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2009)

top stuff


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## CUMBRIANDRAGON (Aug 2, 2009)

All we need to do is shout Nazi scum off our streets


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## durruti02 (Aug 4, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You cannot surely believe that this is _in any way whatsoever_ a response to or motivated by concern regarding "Islamic extremism". Perhaps "no Irish no Blacks" was motivated by concerns regarding the IRA and black-on-white street crime. You know, the vast majority of people do NOT live in Brixton - and they're white!
> 
> BTW Kristallnacht was motivated by concerns about Jewish extremism.


 FM do you honestly believe everyone in a group, be it Tory Party/ Labour Party/BNP/or this lot, ALL think identically??????


----------



## cantsin (Aug 5, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Valid points but the primary chant of these *people seems to be about 'wanting our country back' and whilst its nothing in itself I think it does represent a pretty much majority view amongst white working class people in this country that the changes of the last 50 or so years have not benefited them.*
> 
> Now you can argue as to why this perception might be wrong or right but for me it still does not alter the fact that many feel it.
> 
> ...



when the fuck did working people own / have "this country " that they now want back ? 1919 / 1926 for fleeting moments ? doubt you were referring to then tbh 

what was going on pre - the last 50 years that you "think " working people  hark back to - non immigration maybe ?  

Durrutti - this blokes a fraud and you're a mug


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 5, 2009)

and you know seem to know nothing about working class history .. people RIGHTLY see this as THEIR country. Unlike the middle class the w/c actually DID build this country, the roads, the cars, the houses etc etc And they again in their millions fought and died again for what they see as THEIR country. Until the left understand this 'nationalism lite', they will NEVER be able to relate to w/c people. 

And also the w/c DID have power in this country. Through the Trade Unions and the Labour Party w/c people had significant power in this country of a kind which forced previous Tory govts to act in a way that is afr to the left of the current New Labour Party and forced capital to an all out assult in the early 1980s


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 6, 2009)

fwd 

" message from "seaside marshy", the organise of the brum demo: "Just for your information, we ae expecting 700 - 1000 protesters, and among the banners we will have are ones denouncing the BNP, NF and C18 we are the 4 Defence Leagues, English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish. This will be a peaceful march, and is the first of many. These will continue until our government cracks down on Islamic extremists, instead of harrassing us for protesting. See you there. Marshy" 

for what it is worth ..


----------



## treelover (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm tryIng to get a handle on this new and growing phenomeon(sic): is it like the Primrose League and the other working class Unionist organisations of the late19th/early 20th C or something completely new?

Either way, the cobweb left haven't got any idea how to understand or challenge it.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 7, 2009)

gerry gable article in Searchlight full of inflamatory language! 

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/index.php?link=template&story=286


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and you know seem to know nothing about working class history .. people RIGHTLY see this as THEIR country. Unlike the middle class the w/c actually DID build this country, the roads, the cars, the houses etc etc And they again in their millions fought and died again for what they see as THEIR country. Until the left understand this 'nationalism lite', they will NEVER be able to relate to w/c people.
> 
> And also the w/c DID have power in this country. Through the Trade Unions and the Labour Party w/c people had significant power in this country of a kind which forced previous Tory govts to act in a way that is afr to the left of the current New Labour Party and forced capital to an all out assult in the early 1980s



I think you make a useful point here. Also the local working class has literally been there ( in an area for years) its often the middle class types that are more transient, don't know local people and don't feel that same attachment.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 7, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> I think you make a useful point here. Also the local working class has literally been there ( in an area for years) its often the middle class types that are more transient, don't know local people and don't feel that same attachment.



sorry to say this but this is classim by numbers. 

You start of with these generalisations and expect to apply them to reality. If you forget the middle-class/working-class as some sort of defined behaviour then you might get a clearer idea of what the issue is.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and you know seem to know nothing about working class history .. people RIGHTLY see this as THEIR country. Unlike the middle class the w/c actually DID build this country, the roads, the cars, the houses etc etc And they again in their millions fought and died again for what they see as THEIR country. Until the left understand this 'nationalism lite', they will NEVER be able to relate to w/c people.
> 
> And also the w/c DID have power in this country. Through the Trade Unions and the Labour Party w/c people had significant power in this country of a kind which forced previous Tory govts to act in a way that is afr to the left of the current New Labour Party and forced capital to an all out assult in the early 1980s



I think this is perhaps what we may think of a certain generation - say 50-60 year olds. But it doesn't apply to most people. I think alot of w/c people saw the unions as divisive and pretty much the enemy in most instances, the same goes for political parties like Labour (new and old). 

English nationalism has always been reactionary and xenophobic, tied closely with support for an imperialist state, British Army and royalist. You just have to look at the character and tone of any flag waving w/c person - there is little connection with the commonality between people apart that defined by some dumb national and ahistoric charecteristic. 

I'm still not convinced that "nationalism-lite" is useful or is anti-establishment, it is more a lobby for more nationalism, more state intervention. Thats not to say we should shout "Nazi" at anyone wearing an england shirt. The strategy has to be clear. Break the influence and connection in "movements" like the EDL from any far-right agenda by targeting known activists. Initiate campaigns that are appealing to people who would go on an EDL demo but focusses itself on more progressive, and dare I say it, important struggles.  I don't doubt that there are some really good people who are getting court up with EDL stuff, that are rightly dillusioned about their homeland and what to do something about it. Its our job to engage with them, problem is do WE have anything better to offer them?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> sorry to say this but this is classim by numbers.
> 
> You start of with these generalisations and expect to apply them to reality. If you forget the middle-class/working-class as some sort of defined behaviour then you might get a clearer idea of what the issue is.




Really?


----------



## purplex (Aug 8, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> From what I know of football firms and the people who make them up, they tend to fall into the Tory working class category.



All sorts of lads get involved with football firms.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 8, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> I think this is perhaps what we may think of a certain generation - say 50-60 year olds. But it doesn't apply to most people. I think alot of w/c people saw the unions as divisive and pretty much the enemy in most instances, the same goes for political parties like Labour (new and old).
> 
> English nationalism has always been reactionary and xenophobic, tied closely with support for an imperialist state, British Army and royalist. You just have to look at the character and tone of any flag waving w/c person - there is little connection with the commonality between people apart that defined by some dumb national and ahistoric charecteristic.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that "nationalism-lite" is useful or is anti-establishment, it is more a lobby for more nationalism, more state intervention. Thats not to say we should shout "Nazi" at anyone wearing an england shirt. The strategy has to be clear. Break the influence and connection in "movements" like the EDL from any far-right agenda by targeting known activists. Initiate campaigns that are appealing to people who would go on an EDL demo but focusses itself on more progressive, and dare I say it, important struggles.  I don't doubt that there are some really good people who are getting court up with EDL stuff, that are rightly dillusioned about their homeland and what to do something about it. Its our job to engage with them, problem is do WE have anything better to offer them?



yes good post .. and to clarify i am not saying 'nationalism-lite' is 'useful or anti establishment' .. i am saying it is a general reality and has to be understood IF we are to be able to even talk to most people let alone appeal to or win them


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## treelover (Aug 8, 2009)

> 'fuk all u white cunts
> u know were locking off your country pussyholes get ready to get battered tomorrow pricks'
> Report




and the left will be defending arseholes like this? not exactly Cable St is it?


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## treelover (Aug 8, 2009)

> and i suggest u actually learn something about law and the changes which are being suggested u dumb chavs!! ur all here coz ur ignorant fukas frm ur council estates and ur 14 grandkids at the age of 19! ur juts a joke to us!!! seriously u have no class ur just CHAVS!!!! i have reverted more than 23 of my english friends to ISLAM!! RESPECTS TO ALL THE ASIANS ALL THE MUSLIMS!! ONE UMMAH!!!!




and this, not much to choose between the two protagonists is there?


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## audiotech (Aug 8, 2009)

FWIW, posting anonomous comments from YouTube, or similar, makes you look an arse.


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## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2009)

treelover said:


> and the left will be defending arseholes like this? not exactly Cable St is it?



I'm not sure what point you're making?  There's similar posts about "paki cunts" on those facebook groups.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2009)

In fact I don't know why you and durutti are defending these groups.  Yes, there are people pissed off with Islamic extremism (rightly so), yes the Labour Party has abandoned the working class, yes so has most of the left.  However, making common cause with the BNP is fucked up.  This  protest today in Brum is aligned with the far right, make no mistake.  What the hell are you playing at defending it?


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2009)

no one is defending it, but I dont see UAF comdemning islamic fundamentalism, in fact the SWP signed a document in Cairo who  argues for attacking Uk naval units if they blockade Gaza, and they have invited all sorts of IF nutjobs onto their platforms, you have comdemned it, but the UAF/SWP crazies haven't.


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## treelover (Aug 8, 2009)

> Birmingham city centre protests: 31 arrested
> 
> Aug 8 2009
> Add a comment
> ...






From the Birmingham Post


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## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2009)

I was wondering what happened.  Was thinking about going, but went to see a mate instead.


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## Blagsta (Aug 8, 2009)

treelover said:


> no one is defending it, but I dont see UAF comdemning islamic fundamentalism, in fact the SWP signed a document in Cairo who  argues for attacking Uk naval units if they blockade Gaza, and they have invited all sorts of IF nutjobs onto their platforms, you have comdemned it, but the UAF/SWP crazies haven't.



I'm not sure what relevance this has to what I wrote.


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## Karac (Aug 8, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> What is this bullshit, as if Welsh people call themselves 'Taffies' anymore. Sounds like a bunch of coked up morons. The irony being that Wales is about 98% white people anyway, and outside of South Wales is about 99.5% white.



Its probably a load of BNPers pretending to be non-racist because they want Jeff Marsh and some tough Black people to beat up Muslims


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## the button (Aug 9, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8191833.stm

On the BBC website now, along with a couple of minutes of video footage. EDL placards including "Black & White Unite," and "We're not racist! We're not BNP!".


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2009)

Well, they got a fight, which was what they were after.

lol at "We're Not Racist Honest!" placards


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 9, 2009)

the button said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8191833.stm
> 
> On the BBC website now, along with a couple of minutes of video footage. EDL placards including "Black & White Unite," and "We're not racist! We're not BNP!".


i realise you can't tell but that all looked very well behaved and docile tbh,


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## where to (Aug 9, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I'm not sure what point you're making?  There's similar posts about "paki cunts" on those facebook groups.



a plague on all their houses you thick fuck.


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## Blagsta (Aug 9, 2009)

where to said:


> a plague on all their houses you thick fuck.



who the fuck are you?


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## lostexpectation (Aug 9, 2009)

mulism bombers off our streets, erm... they will be quick enough


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## ItWillNeverWork (Aug 9, 2009)

Bloody hell! I was just down the road from there at about that time. Was completley oblivious to anything kicking off. God I'm dopey.


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## revlon (Aug 9, 2009)

okay just got back from brum. I'm sure durutti02 will have a lot to say about what went on but here's my twopennethworth.

We arrived 5.30 down at the bullring, the corner of New street and High street. The uaf counter demo was in full flow, there was a loose cordon of police with 100 or so inside, many more outside. Almost all asian, black faces, very few white/lefty types at all. No swp paper sellers, although lots of uaf placards. Milling about outside few casual looking types (ie white football hoolie types/edl types) small clusters of black lads and lots of asians plus shoppers and curious on lookers. Bit of an atmopshere but no tension.

We walked up New street pedestrian way to the Council House (informed by a copper that's where the edl were meeting up) hung around the fountain and watched casual looking types, white hoolie types, begin to arrive in small groups by the main building. Police were in a very loose cordon around the plaza. Saw a couple of edl people bring all the placards and banners and watch the demo form up. Extremely strange banners that seem to tick all the pc boxes all with the edl logo. Someone had a big union jack an england flag (don't know if they brought them themselves) plus an israeli flag was draped on the fencing behind them. Started singing national anthem, chanting muslim bombers off our streets, around 60-70 in the loose police cordon, all white with 20-30 or so milling outside. Families and kids playing around the fountain, black lads on bikes looked on, as did 4 boneheads who obviously made a point of not joining the demo. 

Suddenly a load of police left the edl cordon charged down to the top end of New street where it seemed a load of asian lads were making their way up. Police blocked the route and pushed them back down New Street and formed lines across the street. Riot police and police dogs were brought out. There was also a mobile metal fence erected as a kind of barrier. Edl were free to move (ie not penned in by police) but remained static against the Council House building. 

We made our way around the side streets (being mistaken on the way for the bnp (!) by a group of drunks standing outside a bar) down to where the police had blocked the asian lads coming up New Street. Made our way back to the corner of New street/High street and the uaf demo where it looked like the police had cordoned everyone in. 

Tensions were rising, volatile if unconfrontational atmosphere at that point. Suddenly a group of around 30 edl/football hoolies lads charged down from round High street towards the demo. Stopped half way and beckoned everyone to have a go. The asian lads just swarmed en masse towards them where the edl/football hoolies did a u-turn and ran like fuck, chased by hundreds of young asian lads. One or two of the younger more inexperienced hoolies got caught, fell and took a battering. 

Hoolies tried to re-group at the bottom end of New street by M&S where there was another onslaught by the asian lads. Police were pretty slow of the mark.

After that it all got a bit surreal. We saw edl/football hoolies being chased all over the shop, riot police running in formation trying to keep up, groups of asian, black lads basically looking for "the bnp". Weird little things: a group of about 25 (white, asian, black, mixed race) looking like a proper youth firm after the edl mob, Edl/hoolie types wandering about untouched and unconfronted (it felt like gangs of lads were after gangs of lads rather than taking out individual white/edl/hoolie types), a load of young goth/emo kids in the park getting into it.  

We tried to keep up with things ducking round side streets avoiding police lines, didn't feel threatened or intimidated despite being the only few white faces amongst a sea of asian/black faces. Didn't seem either that the asian lads were reinforcing their muslim identity.

Of course we weren't everywhere and we may have missed things but the bbc report (especially the eye witness account by gary nichols) is way off the mark.


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## sonny61 (Aug 9, 2009)

Fantastic, pictures today in the papers of young whites lads on their own being beaten by a  large mob of Asians/Muslims.
I am sure the BNP are delighted with that image.

Seen a report on the BBC where a moron from the UAF kept talking about the protesters being BNP, which is bollocks.
They had signs saying we are not the BNP, and anti BNP placards(much the same as the UAF's) and black and white unite!

Clearly not hard core football lads, just a bunch of young kids with something against Islam.
Reports of when the trouble started, of black and Asians lads attacking anyone white. Now that may be partially true, or not true at all, but it does not matter, that is the story which will gain credence.

A terrible photo of a mob of Asian youths dragging a union jack flag of an elderly man, more propaganda for the BNP.

Not long after the 2001 riots, the BNP got it's first council seat.
Pictures of single white males being beaten by Asians is a massive boost for the BNP, and they were not even there.

The event gave the image, true or false, of a very small number of white lads sticking up for ''ingerland'', and getting the crap beaten out of them by British hating  Asians. That is the image which will be seen across Britain, even if false.

The UAF are the biggest bunch of fuckwits ever. They have in a single day made race relations even worse in the UK.
I fear next time some real football lads might turn up, and we will see some terrible race riots.
A few hundred more thousand votes for the BNP in the bag, well done the UAF.


----------



## HarryinOz (Aug 9, 2009)

*Give me fucken strength*



durruti02 said:


> indeed .. typical leftist response



Pull your head out of you arse you fucken prick. I'm sick and fucking tired of you ignorant clowns dressing racism other up than what it is ...

... besides' as soon as I hear this "leftist" bullshit I can't help but switch off because the rest of what coming is the same old predictable regurgerated ignorant shit. 

Next decade, and the one after, will see the same shit from the same ignorant fools because ...they all think their onto something new. Fuckwits. 
Give me fucken strength.






Least the fights are worth watching... need more of that in Oz.
That's the go ... more knuckdraggers punching the fuck out each other ...while there doing that we do real politics.


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## kenny g (Aug 9, 2009)

"off our streets, muslim bombers." " we are not rascist, we are not BNP" and people were protesting against that?? Madness.


----------



## Slugger_O'Toole (Aug 9, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Fantastic, pictures today in the papers of young whites lads on their own being beaten by a  large mob of Asians/Muslims.
> I am sure the BNP are delighted with that image.
> 
> Seen a report on the BBC where a moron from the UAF kept talking about the protesters being BNP, which is bollocks.
> ...



My bold

I agree 100% with what you've posted. The clips of savage asian mobs beating single white people while they were on the ground will have the BNP rubbing their hands in glee.

The UAF and Muslim extremists are between them the best recruiters the BNP can have. Shame on them.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2009)

The edl prats are not the point here. them getting chased around brum centre is not the point either - the bigger picture is what this does for the BNP, and as far i can tell this is brilliantt for them. Racialises stuff in brum where they've been strugglig to get a hold, ratchets the ternsion up - will give them a boost in Dudlely, Sandwell etc How much propoganda about 'pakis' taking over etc can they get out of this to sell to those without the full picture of what happened and why, they'd be utterly incompetent not to get bucket loads. And every other BNP branch nationally with a slightly up for it membership will now be seeking to follow their lead. Total fucking shambles that is going to be paraded as a victory for anti-fascism (more specfically for the UAF) for the next few years, locking anti-fascism into the exact same stuff that's helped lead us to the terrible postion that we're now in - despite this not being likely to touch the BNP in any negative way at all.


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## likesfish (Aug 9, 2009)

pr victory for the bnp


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## Raw SslaC (Aug 9, 2009)

I support RevLon's account. I would want to say that it was a very surreal day. The UAF organised an "Anti-BNP" demo which was obviously targetted against the English Defence League. There was also people calling it a demo against the NF/Combat 18/Neo-Nazis...etc. So my first point was that the "BNP" brand was used to get people on the streets and it certainly worked,  especially in mobilising alot of non-muslim black and asian people. There seemed to be a clear seperation between the English Defence League, who were 500+ metres away from the main UAF demo and numbered around 70 people, and groups of casuals in several pubs and in the surrounding streets that were up for a ruck with "asians". 

I saw around 30-40 casuals charge down the street towards the main UAF demo. They ran about 30 metres and were met by around 150-200 strong group of mainly asian and black youth. The casuals turned and ran. A few got caught and were punched and kicked on to the floor by about 20-30 people before a few cops intervened. During this I heard a few asians shouting "get the white bastards!" and "kill the white bastards". We were with that group and because it was so racially divided we were concerned we could be set upon. However we weren't and it did seem like they were NOT attacking random white people. we even saw groups of casual-types walking past this main group and they weren't touched. 

The old guy with the union jack looked like a local drunk and he was told repeatedly by the police to put his flag away. He must have been hanging around, staggering with his flag for about 30 minutes but must have moved as i didn't see him getting attacked.


----------



## revlon (Aug 9, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Clearly not hard core football lads, just a bunch of young kids with something against Islam.


Hardcore old skool (mid to late 40's) hoolies were there, just had the nous to keep out of the way, not make themselves obvious. I think they sussed the numbers game pretty early on.



sonny61 said:


> Reports of when the trouble started, of black and Asians lads attacking anyone white. Now that may be partially true, or not true at all, but it does not matter, that is the story which will gain credence.


Completely untrue. Not one hoolie type wandering about on their own was targeted. As i say it was gangs of lads looking for gangs of lads (up for a fight). Pics of young white lads on the ground were from when they got left behind after the edl/hoolie mob fronted up the asian lads then did a runner.



sonny61 said:


> A terrible photo of a mob of Asian youths dragging a union jack flag of an elderly man, more propaganda for the BNP.


Okay this happened right at the very end after the hoolies had been runout of town and there was relative calm. He was a random very pissed up bloke nothing to do with the demo (he wasn't part of edl) who happened to get hold on the flag, basically randomly stumbling about shouting at people. Coppers wanted to take the flag off him at one point. Although of course the picture is a fabulous pr coup.


----------



## STFC (Aug 9, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> I'm still not convinced that "nationalism-lite" is useful or is anti-establishment, it is more a lobby for more nationalism, more state intervention. *Thats not to say we should shout "Nazi" at anyone wearing an england shirt.*



Although you'd like to, eh?


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> Although you'd like to, eh?



No, such a thing is idiotic.


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## STFC (Aug 9, 2009)

Fair play. I thought it was a tactical thing.


----------



## STFC (Aug 9, 2009)

http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2009/08/08/police-arrest-31-during-protest-clashes-66331-24352519/

1:12 - "What's happened now, is a number of racist nazis..."

Oh dear.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The edl prats are not the point here. them getting chased around brum centre is not the point either - the bigger picture is what this does for the BNP, and as far i can tell this is brilliantt for them.



perhaps it is, but this doesnt look like a standard UAF banner waving sesh, but more like working class kids, of all races, organising together to fight the fash off the streets

given that by and large it was asian guys who were going to be targeted by the edl, then im loathe to condemn how they chose to resist it


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2009)

smokedout said:


> perhaps it is, but this doesnt look like a standard UAF banner waving sesh, but more like working class kids, of all races, organising together to fight the fash off the streets
> 
> given that by and large it was asian guys who were going to be targeted by the edl, then im loathe to condemn how they chose to resist it



Absolutely no sense of political responsibility from the UAF - they knew damn well if they called a counter-demo they could sit back let the local asian lads do the job of getting all militant, thereby allowing the UAF to chunnel the students into their organisation on the basis of it was them looking all militant (note how the usual UAF broad front bollocks was replaced with clear SWP slogans on many placards for this one). Result for both the UAF and the BNP. Bad for the rest of us.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2009)

smokedout said:


> given that by and large it was asian guys who were going to be targeted by the edl, then im loathe to condemn how they chose to resist it



Asain lads aren't immune from stepping into traps and playing the role of useful idiots (for both sides).


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2009)

While it may have made tactical sense on the day to maximise numbers, (though overall the whole thing sounds like apathy won the day) in the long term for UAF/SWP to brand all critics of islamic fundamentalism as BNP, etc will only alienate people and may push some of the young uns towards the fash.


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## Spion (Aug 9, 2009)

Haha, look at Butchers all pissy cos the world gets on with it without him. *grin*

Some racists wanted to make their presence felt on the streets of Brum, they even tried to physically attack the anti protesters and got a kicking for their trouble. Good.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 9, 2009)

fair enough, and im not defending UAF, but i suspect even without their involvement this kind of resistance would have mobilised anyway, it did in bradford and oldham, just strictly along racial lines, this looks a lot more like different races united (difficult so say without being there - but from the reports on here anyways) in resistance and there is some comfort to be taken in that, especially given one of the edl's agendas seems to have been to stir up tension between the black and asian communities

in short i agree about the uaf, and it was a propaganda victory for the bnp, but beneath the surface, its perhaps not all bad


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## treelover (Aug 9, 2009)

How old are you Spion? sad Trot fuck...


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## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2009)

Spion said:


> Haha, look at Butchers all pissy cos the world gets on with it without him. *grin*
> 
> Some racists wanted to make their presence felt on the streets of Brum, they even tried to physically attack the anti protesters and got a kicking for their trouble. Good.



Yep, exactly as i predicted - _a stunning victory, let's do more of this_! Total lack of political responsbility, sold down the river for a little bit of excitment, some goold old lefty posing and a whole lot of shit further on down the road. Paint this as cable stret mark 2 all you like, simplify it down to the sort of limited picture painted above that a 17 year old junior trot would come out with if you like, cheer on the useful idiots if you like - doesn't change the lijkely outcomes of this - doesn't evebn begin to recognise them even. Dudley, Sandwell, stoke BNP rubbing their hands.


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2009)

> Dudley, Sandwell, stoke BNP rubbing their hands.




a number of BNP blogs, fellow travellers, etc are indeed celebrating this 'defeat' today


----------



## Spion (Aug 9, 2009)

treelover said:


> How old are you Spion? sad Trot fuck...


Yeah, well we all know which demo you'd have been part of, mental boy


----------



## Spion (Aug 9, 2009)

treelover said:


> a number of BNP blogs, fellow travellers, etc are indeed celebrating this 'defeat' today


Oh shit, the patriot blogosphere has spoken. Run for the hills.

Twat


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2009)

> they knew damn well if they called a counter-demo they could sit back let the local asian lads do the job of getting all militant, thereby allowing the UAF to chunnel the students into their organisation on the basis of it was them looking all militant




What do you expect, the asian lads were just Chris Harman's 'footsoldiers'(TM)


----------



## Spion (Aug 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, exactly as i predicted - _a stunning victory, let's do more of this_! Total lack of political responsbility, sold down the river for a little bit of excitment, some goold old lefty posing and a whole lot of shit further on down the road. Paint this as cable stret mark 2 all you like, simplify it down to the sort of limited picture painted above that a 17 year old junior trot would come out with if you like, cheer on the useful idiots if you like - doesn't change the lijkely outcomes of this - doesn't evebn begin to recognise them even. Dudley, Sandwell, stoke BNP rubbing their hands.


And you've got fuck all to contribute. No way to take it forward. Can't even acknowledge that making a bunch of racists run away is a good thing. You're one limp dick, pal


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2009)

Spion said:


> And you've got fuck all to contribute. No way to take it forward. Can't even acknowledge that making a bunch of racists run away is a good thing. You're one limp dick, pal



Wow, thanks for the politics. I've said that the edl are not the point, there's a bigger picture that will now be changed for the worse by your stunning victory. if all you can say is 'but we made them run away' if all you've got is cheering (from the sidelines) people actively playing into the hands of the BNP, then i'm not sure you've very much to contribute yourself. In fact, your _contribution_ is worse than zero, it's counter-productive. But at least you can strike the pose eh? That's what it's all about.


----------



## discokermit (Aug 9, 2009)

smokedout said:


> perhaps it is, but this doesnt look like a standard UAF banner waving sesh, but more like working class kids, of all races, organising together to fight the fash off the streets
> 
> given that by and large it was asian guys who were going to be targeted by the edl, then im loathe to condemn how they chose to resist it


i applaud them.

how would anybody feel if they were young, asian, working class and living in brum, seeing those cunts marching about. and knowing that if you just ignore it, next week there will be more of them, making more noise and making your life more unbearable.


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i realise you can't tell but that all looked very well behaved and docile tbh,


 yes the crew at the town hall were 'well behaved' and had all the right banners 'we hate the nazis as much as we hate muslim extremists' 'we are not the bnp and we are not racist' 'black and white unite' and ones attacking anti gay attitudes and female mutilation in islam, defending israel (so not anti jewish blah blah) etc 

.. the question we can not answer as yet is what is the relationship between that lot and the crews looking for a row with the muslim kids .. is the whole thing a con? or is this a split?

http://www.lionheartuk.blogspot.com/

lionhearts latest blog doesn't really clarify matters at all!


----------



## lostexpectation (Aug 9, 2009)

but the causual and the edl are racist bigots....


muslim bombers off our streets, what muslim bombers in particular are they talking about?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

revlon said:


> okay just got back from brum. I'm sure durutti02 will have a lot to say about what went on but here's my twopennethworth.
> 
> We arrived 5.30 down at the bullring, the corner of New street and High street. The uaf counter demo was in full flow, there was a loose cordon of police with 100 or so inside, many more outside. Almost all asian, black faces, very few white/lefty types at all. No swp paper sellers, although lots of uaf placards. Milling about outside few casual looking types (ie white football hoolie types/edl types) small clusters of black lads and lots of asians plus shoppers and curious on lookers. Bit of an atmopshere but no tension.
> 
> ...



this ^^


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Fantastic, pictures today in the papers of young whites lads on their own being beaten by a  large mob of Asians/Muslims.
> I am sure the BNP are delighted with that image.
> 
> Seen a report on the BBC where a moron from the UAF kept talking about the protesters being BNP, which is bollocks.
> ...



and this ^^ and again this is the question .. was the whole thing a set up? are EDL state assets or dupes?? or a BNP front?? or just a bunch of football boys with army connection?? 

 .. in my mind the jury is still out


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The edl prats are not the point here. them getting chased around brum centre is not the point either - the bigger picture is what this does for the BNP, and as far i can tell this is brilliantt for them. Racialises stuff in brum where they've been strugglig to get a hold, ratchets the ternsion up - will give them a boost in Dudlely, Sandwell etc How much propoganda about 'pakis' taking over etc can they get out of this to sell to those without the full picture of what happened and why, they'd be utterly incompetent not to get bucket loads. And every other BNP branch nationally with a slightly up for it membership will now be seeking to follow their lead. Total fucking shambles that is going to be paraded as a victory for anti-fascism (more specfically for the UAF) for the next few years, locking anti-fascism into the exact same stuff that's helped lead us to the terrible postion that we're now in - despite this not being likely to touch the BNP in any negative way at all.



yes .. though tbh i am not sure UAF could ahve stopped the asian kids wanting a row ( boys will be boys is what it felt like tbh) .. though the constant wind up that EDL were BNP was clearly inflammatory


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, exactly as i predicted - _a stunning victory, let's do more of this_! Total lack of political responsbility, sold down the river for a little bit of excitment, some goold old lefty posing and a whole lot of shit further on down the road. Paint this as cable stret mark 2 all you like, simplify it down to the sort of limited picture painted above that a 17 year old junior trot would come out with if you like, cheer on the useful idiots if you like - doesn't change the lijkely outcomes of this - doesn't evebn begin to recognise them even. Dudley, Sandwell, stoke BNP rubbing their hands.


 yup


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## audiotech (Aug 9, 2009)

According to a police spokesperson on Talksport they didn't ban this event because it's important to 'allow democratic protest'!

He also never mentioned the EWDL, but said that "Casuals United" were the organisors of the "protests". It was also made clear that this group had never been in contact with the police to discuss their intentions?

The police must have realised that these "casuals" were there for a ruck with Asian lads and as expected were the first to start trouble by charging UAF protestors. These casuals then bottled it and ran when they met with a group of mainly Asian and black youth, who rightly defended themselves.

It seems odd then that the police allowed this to go ahead?


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## asbestos (Aug 9, 2009)

EDL are the BNP's sacrificial lambs. (obviously).


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## Spion (Aug 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> But at least you can strike the pose eh? That's what it's all about.


No. You're projecting your own motivations onto others here. 

What it's all about is not allowing a bunch of racists to whip up support unopposed on the streets of Brum. And that's what happened.

Like a strike over pay or jobs that wins its aims, it's not socialism, it's not workers councils, it's a very limited aim that was achieved.


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

discokermit said:


> i applaud them.
> 
> how would anybody feel if they were young, asian, working class and living in brum, seeing those cunts marching about. and knowing that if you just ignore it, next week there will be more of them, making more noise and making your life more unbearable.



well yes .. but some times i is better to maybe ignore idiots .. like with drunks. do you always give a lecture on moral values and termperance to the 6ft monster standing in the middle of the pavement and a bottle in his hand? no 

EDL may well be a provocation .. in which case ignore them .. or they are just a few obsesses ex squaddies and mates .. in which case they are going no where .. and they have a point, that 21st century britain does not want to become a medievalist theocracy which ( however unlikely regardless that thousends of muslims wish for it) the vast majority agree with 

these are really really dangerous times and if we do not play our cards right we will end up with race war and fundamental division 

people like spion appear to have no foresight whatsoever and appear utterly reactive ... we need to be a fuck site more canny


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2009)

Spion said:


> No. You're projecting your own motivations onto others here.
> 
> What it's all about is not allowing a bunch of racists to whip up support unopposed on the streets of Brum. And that's what happened.
> 
> Like a strike over pay or jobs that wins its aims, it's not socialism, it's not workers councils, it's a very limited aim that was achieved.



Wow, simplified down even further - you should be a general or something - and with as a side order attempt to say that those who disagree with your counter-productive side-line cheering are scabs, or the equivalent. _Every_ strike takes account of tactics, analyses what the likely results are of taking certain actions at certain times are. They don't just grunt _urgh -get 'em._


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## revlon (Aug 9, 2009)

the bigger picture will emerge as the bigger emerges with all sides making political capital out of the day.

i think people may be giving too much credit to the uaf, their presense impact and effect. The uaf demo was essentially penned in round the corner when it all kicked off with local asian lads hanging around who chased/attacked the hoolies (i've no doubt they would've done this anyway without the uaf being there).

In fact it felt like a local issue (with edl being the ones parachuting in) resolved by local asian lads. Racialised certainly but they weren't defending or reinforcing a muslim identity, which of course doesn't mean anything against graphic images of lone whites being attacked by a group of asians.


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> According to a police spokesperson on Talksport they didn't ban this event because it's important to 'allow democratic protest'!
> 
> He also never mentioned the EWDL, but said that "Casuals United" were the organisors of the "protests". It was also made clear that this group had never been in contact with the police to discuss their intentions?
> 
> ...



1) there is a split between CU and EDL ( see lionheart blog) 

2) the EDL do NOT appear to have been involved in any rucking .. the casuals who were do nota ppear to have been at the EDL demo .. maybe this was organised this way .. i can not say 

3) it was the asian lads who attacked first as far as we could see .. they attempted to get to the EDL demo, were driven back and then the casuals appeared


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

asbestos said:


> EDL are the BNP's sacrificial lambs. (obviously).



no not obviously .. they had banners clearly attacking nazis and saying they were not BNP .. and there is a political row going on behind the scenes 

BUT yes your point may be right


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## Slugger_O'Toole (Aug 9, 2009)

I realise now what UAF stands for; Unite All Fascists. I suppose it's a group set up and covertly run by the BNP.


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## audiotech (Aug 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> lionhearts latest blog doesn't really clarify matters at all!


 
No?




> It has been brought to my attention today that Chris Renton will not be attending the protest tomorrow, so he has caused the division with me and those who I have worked with for many months, leading to the split. He then blamed it all on me, which turned people against me, and then he jumps ship on the day after causing all of the infighting.
> 
> Says it all really!
> 
> Talk about agent provocateur.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 3) it was the asian lads who attacked first as far as we could see ..


 
Were you there? I wasn't btw.

Others who were there have said:



revlon said:


> Suddenly a group of around 30 edl/football hoolies lads charged down from round High street towards the demo. Stopped half way and beckoned everyone to have a go. The asian lads just swarmed en masse towards them where the edl/football hoolies did a u-turn and ran like fuck, chased by hundreds of young asian lads.


 


Raw SslaC said:


> I saw around 30-40 casuals charge down the street towards the main UAF demo. They ran about 30 metres and were met by around 150-200 strong group of mainly asian and black youth. The casuals turned and ran.


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 1) there is a split between CU and EDL ( see lionheart blog)



This split seems to have been completely fabricated as a response to it being publicised that EDL website was put up by a BNP member.


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The edl prats are not the point here. them getting chased around brum centre is not the point either - the bigger picture is what this does for the BNP, and as far i can tell this is brilliantt for them. Racialises stuff in brum where they've been strugglig to get a hold, ratchets the ternsion up - will give them a boost in Dudlely, Sandwell etc How much propoganda about 'pakis' taking over etc can they get out of this to sell to those without the full picture of what happened and why, they'd be utterly incompetent not to get bucket loads. And every other BNP branch nationally with a slightly up for it membership will now be seeking to follow their lead. Total fucking shambles that is going to be paraded as a victory for anti-fascism (more specfically for the UAF) for the next few years, locking anti-fascism into the exact same stuff that's helped lead us to the terrible postion that we're now in - despite this not being likely to touch the BNP in any negative way at all.



This is about right. The only good thing is the timing. This will be old by the time the elections come round.


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Wow, simplified down even further - you should be a general or something - and with as a side order attempt to say that those who disagree with your counter-productive side-line cheering are scabs, or the equivalent. _Every_ strike takes account of tactics, analyses what the likely results are of taking certain actions at certain times are. They don't just grunt _urgh -get 'em._


 he he General Haig lol 

spion ( interesting choice of name  you have not got f'ing clue whats going on in the world


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> No?



how does it clarify? what does it prove? who does it show as in charge?


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Were you there? I wasn't btw.
> 
> Others who were there have said:



yes of course i was there .. 

that was later .. re read revlon's account


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## Raw SslaC (Aug 9, 2009)

We couldn't tell who attacked first to be honest. Which isn't important, as both sides wanted to fight. From our end it was a group of 5 or 6 black and asain lads chasing another group, with a few bottles being thrown - this to my knowledge was the first skirmished that happened. What was reported later with the 30-40 hoolies attempting to steam in at the site of the UAF demo was maybe 30-40 minutes later. There was also another significant incident in the park with a hail of bottles and cans being thrown onto the hoolies, who were barricading themselves into the park.


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## audiotech (Aug 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> how does it clarify? what does it prove? who does it show as in charge?


 
Certainly clarifies that some with links to the BNP have infiltrated this group in order to take charge and engage in provocation.


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Certainly clarifies that some with links to the BNP have infiltrated this group in order to take charge and engage in provocation.


 yes that was known the months ago .. what Paul Rays blog does not clarify is who actually does now run EDL then


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## Raw SslaC (Aug 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes that was known the months ago .. what Paul Rays blog does not clarify is who actually does now run EDL then



His statement suggests its Chris Renton and his brother


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> His statement suggests its Chris Renton and his brother


 but then he says this 

"It has been brought to my attention today that Chris Renton will not be attending the protest tomorrow, so he has caused the division with me and those who I have worked with for many months, leading to the split. He then blamed it all on me, which turned people against me, and then he jumps ship on the day after causing all of the infighting."


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## durruti02 (Aug 9, 2009)

btw the BNP website is not covering EDL/CU or yesterday at all


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## sonny61 (Aug 9, 2009)

From the BBC:

"It started off with a group of white guys who were chanting 'England, England'. I thought they were just football fans, but then a larger group of black and Asian people turned up and it all kicked off.
Youths drag a Union flag from a man's hands

"You had people burning the Union flag. People were being kicked - some of them weren't anything to do with the protests.''

It is claimed one of the white guys seen on the floor being kicked in by a mob of Asians, had nothing to do with the protest. He had in fact just been mugged, and when the Asains seen him they thought he was one of the ''ingerland'' protesters and attacked him. Some Asians could be facing racially aggravated  assault.

What's that noise I hear?
I think it is the sound of champagne bottles opening at BNP HQ.
Griffin would not piss on those EDL protesters, but he will be rubbing his hands in glee tonight.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> btw the BNP website is not covering EDL/CU or yesterday at all


not quite






			
				bnp said:
			
		

> Nick Griffin: An Audio Response To Birmingham Troubles Yesterday
> August 9, 2009 - By BNP


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## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2009)

While I am sure griffin might be wanking off to the propaganda opportunities here, do you expect asian and black youths to not react angrily to such provocation? They can wave all the 'we aint racists guv, honest' banners they want but it is thinly vieled stuff. 'the left' were pretty much a side issue from what we saw here- this was pure racial tension. Provoked by EDL running dogs.

I can't believe I just used the phrase running dogs with a straight face


e2a 'with glee' not 'in glee'

in suggests the glee is a separate object.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2009)

They went up there with the express intention of starting a fight, and made very sure that everyone they wanted to fight with knew that they were going to be there, as well as physically calling people out when they were there - I'm not sure how it could not have ended up with a fight tbh. If UAF hadn't been there at all there still would have been one.


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## treelover (Aug 9, 2009)

Its bad news all round: with binary oppositions hardening, i fear it won't be the last one, in fact it isn't: there is another one on their 'home turf' Luton


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## Slugger_O'Toole (Aug 9, 2009)

A picture of a group of EDL, they're pointing out that they are not BNP and not racist.

http://i26.tinypic.com/ogazva.jpg


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## tbaldwin (Aug 9, 2009)

Yeah i think its bad news. But maybe not all that important. Sadly i have to agree with fridge magnet, the edl lot probably did want to wind people up and cause a bit of a row. And yeah not altogether suprising some would take the bait.

I think the more important issue for people on the left is how to both oppose racism and fundamental religious bigots.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Yeah i think its bad news. But maybe not all that important. Sadly i have to agree with fridge magnet, the edl lot probably did want to wind people up and cause a bit of a row. And yeah not altogether suprising some would take the bait.
> 
> I think the more important issue for people on the left is how to both oppose racism and fundamental religious bigots.


and what about fascism?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 9, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If UAF hadn't been there at all there still would have been one.




Thats naive. The UAF played the fundamental role of promoting the event and mobilising local Asian youngsters. The ANL remember did the same in Bradford. Once it kicked off they stood back. The only possible beneficaries are the BNP. Such scenes fit tidily into their agenda of inter communal strife.


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## tbaldwin (Aug 9, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> and what about fascism?



Not quite sure what you mean on that pickmans. But i think that fascism(and religious fundamentalism)can grow in terms of economic uncertainty when all other options look discredited.

I guess the job for anti fascists is to either support or create political alternatives to the likes of the BNP. And to point out what a bunch of tossers the BNP are.
When it comes to the EDL i think its a bit more complicated.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2009)

what i mean is that you seem to have picked up on racism and islamic nutters, but missed out some important aspects of fascism, eg the idea of salvation through national renewal.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> Thats naive. The UAF played the fundamental role of promoting the event and mobilising local Asian youngsters. The ANL remember did the same in Bradford. Once it kicked off they stood back. The only possible beneficaries are the BNP. Such scenes fit tidily into their agenda of inter communal strife.



They didn't play a "fundamental role" promoting the event - that was done by the actual organisers, who made sure it got publicity because they wanted a fight, after all, and, er, threads like this - though I'll grant they contributed - and from all accounts it looks like what they did when there was tap into a pre-existing group of people who had come together independent of the UAF.


----------



## Harold Hill (Aug 9, 2009)

No doubt to me the UAF used the EDL for their own ends.  References in interviews to the BNP say it all.  Drip drip drip, make people think its the BNp even if it isn't.

EDL and casuals United are just as responsible for allowing themselves to be used by having no clear raison detre.  Naive at best.  If they didn't want frothing lefties marching against them and Muslim lads trying to kick the fuck out of em, they should have been a little cleverer in their self promotion.  Protesting against Muslim extremism in Birmingham for no reason is pointless.  Chasing Mr Choudhary around AFA style might leave the UAF in an untenible position to oppose them, publicly at least.

Another thing, from attending England games, people vastly overrate the organisation of football firms and probably the Muslim youth as well.  Almost certain innocent members of the public have and will get caught up as a consequence.  It's really nothing to applaud.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> If they didn't want frothing lefties marching against them and Muslim lads trying to kick the fuck out of em



What would ever make you think they didn't? Sorry, may have missed something there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> Drip drip drip, make people think its the BNp even if it isn't.


"i can't believe it's not the bnp"


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 9, 2009)

They need better banners

'honest guv, I am not a racist'


'I love gays really (not like THAT though)'

'It's not Jewish people I hate, it's the _International Financiers_'

*whistles for the dog*


----------



## cantsin (Aug 9, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Fantastic, pictures today in the papers of young whites lads on their own being beaten by a  large mob of Asians/Muslims.
> I am sure the BNP are delighted with that image.
> 
> Seen a report on the BBC where a moron from the UAF kept talking about the protesters being BNP, which is bollocks.
> ...



I can't even bother to reply to this crap , I'll go on my firm site (YA if you're interested or can work out what that is - there's a a shedload of your sort on there )  if I want to read this kind of drivel , why dont you do us all a favour and do likewise you wannabee mug


----------



## cantsin (Aug 9, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> Thats naive. The UAF played the fundamental role of promoting the event and mobilising local Asian youngsters. The ANL remember did the same in Bradford. Once it kicked off they stood back. The only possible beneficaries are the BNP. Such scenes fit tidily into their agenda of inter communal strife.



surprised at hearing such patronising stuff from you tbh - as if firmed up asian lads need Swappy divs to mobilise them  ?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 9, 2009)

It's not 1989 and you're not Paul Scarott.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 9, 2009)

it sounds fucking laughable tbh.


----------



## Harold Hill (Aug 9, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What would ever make you think they didn't? Sorry, may have missed something there.



Because by being in direct opposition to anti fash groups they will, by default, be classed by the media and wider society as the far right/racist and effectively marginalised.  They aren't contesting elections so have nothing to capitalise on like the BNP now do.

I'm sure most casuals would love the opportunity to fight a group of Muslims, just not in the middle of the second city of the UK with lots of CCTV, hacks and countless people filming it on their phones.  Probably why most opted for the football yesterday instead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2009)

cantsin said:


> surprised at hearing such patronising stuff from you tbh - as if firmed up asian lads need Swappy divs to mobilise them  ?


what, as opposed to lardy asian lads?


----------



## treelover (Aug 9, 2009)

> It's not 1989 and you're not Paul Scarott.



thats so wierd: one of the UAF head honchos has the same moniker, also the same name as the chief sup of west midlands police, the ironing of it...


----------



## discokermit (Aug 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and they have a point, that 21st century britain does not want to become a medievalist theocracy


no they don't. it's not going to.


----------



## OneStrike (Aug 10, 2009)

I called upon this site for a left wing version of events yet i feel sadly let down.   Nothing that i have read previous to my post respresents the truth as i saw it.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> btw the BNP website is not covering EDL/CU or yesterday at all



There is a audio message from Griffin to be found in the usual places


----------



## STFC (Aug 10, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> Because by being in direct opposition to anti fash groups they will, by default, be classed by the media and wider society as the far right/racist and effectively marginalised.  They aren't contesting elections so have nothing to capitalise on like the BNP now do.
> 
> *I'm sure most casuals would love the opportunity to fight a group of Muslims*, just not in the middle of the second city of the UK with lots of CCTV, hacks and countless people filming it on their phones.  Probably why most opted for the football yesterday instead.



What makes you think most 'casuals' (cringe) want to fight muslims?

By the way, I've been acused of being a lefty in a thread about this subject on another board!


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 10, 2009)

It is becoming doubtful any of those lone white males pictured being attacked by a mob of Asians, were anything to do with the protests, and were totally innocent.
The EDL is saying it was none of their lot as they were escorted away by the police.
The small young lad in the green, seems to have been mugged and robbed, and then set upon again by a number of Asian youth.

Apparently there is to be another protest on the 30th Aug in Birmingham.
Another chance for the UAF and the SWP to contribute to racial tension.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

STFC said:


> What makes you think most 'casuals' (cringe) want to fight muslims?
> 
> *By the way, I've been acused of being a lefty in a thread about this subject on another board!*



Which one?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> It is becoming doubtful any of those lone white males pictured being attacked by a mob of Asians, were anything to do with the protests, and were totally innocent.
> The EDL is saying it was none of their lot as they were escorted away by the police.
> The small young lad in the green, seems to have been mugged and robbed, and then set upon again by a number of Asian youth.
> 
> ...



Becoming doubtful how and where? Of course the edl/CU are going to say none of their lot went down.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Which one?



Probably that one the football lads all lads post on, I forget the name it's been years since I posted on it...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 10, 2009)

ITK - do you remember when we turned that 5000000000 strong west ham mob over in some tube somewhere at some non-specified time, only 6 of us - no one ran - etc


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Aug 10, 2009)

It's not called that any more though is it?


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

> 35 arrested, lots been sent to hospital beds and knocked the hell out, beaten to another planet, they should know that muslims own uk now and we will conquer this country and have the kafir bow their heads in shame and hand over the jizya
> Go to the top of the page
> 
> http://www.revolutionmuslim.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2330
> ...





posting like this won't help, and no it wasn't on facebook, it was linked to on birminghma indymedia, btw, i think it is the equivalent of s********.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Aug 10, 2009)

Ave-it.net?


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

I wonder if that idiot is aware that muslims and particualrly people like him are still a very tiny minority, though i think they are very dangerous.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Aug 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> I wonder if that idiot is aware that muslims and particualrly people like him are still a very tiny minority, though i think they are very dangerous.



It's just some fuckwit on the internet, about as dangerous as the Aryan Martyrs Brigade


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

Smurker said:


> I called upon this site for a left wing version of events yet i feel sadly let down.   Nothing that i have read previous to my post respresents the truth as i saw it.



Whats your version of events then? Alot has been talked about and not everything was witnessed.

As for the white lad in the green. I heard reports (probably same source) that he was an easy picking for getting mugged by those thugs. Maybe more will come out. Already the left are calling it an "antifascist" victory? What the fuck! Its a disaster, it provides the biggest propaganda for the far-right since bradford!


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

> Three whites from the extreme left in Birmingham have tried to recruit and incite Muslim teenagers to respond by taking to the streets with racially abusive language and slogans. Perhaps two political extremes are seeking confrontation in the city.
> 
> http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/index.php?link=template&story=286



from searchlight, (part of a wider article on the issue: who were these people?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Probably that one the football lads all lads post on, I forget the name it's been years since I posted on it...





butchersapron said:


> ITK - do you remember when we turned that 5000000000 strong west ham mob over in some tube somewhere at some non-specified time, only 6 of us - no one ran - etc





Rod Sleeves said:


> It's not called that any more though is it?



Aye, it's ITK, it's still going. AWOL is the one running now that's taken it's place so to speak. I make a cameo on there occasionally.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> from searchlight, (part of a wider article on the issue: who were these people?



It was made up obviously.


----------



## FreddyB (Aug 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> from searchlight, (part of a wider article on the issue: who were these people?



They've lifted that from the blog of some old school skinhead type, it was bollocks when he wrote it, it's still bollocks now


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

statement from EDL http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/edl-news-080809.html

Latest News 10/08/09

The English Defence League condemn violence, unless in self defence.

In Birmingham on Saturday, the UAF (who Still believe we are a racist BNP front) Stirred up the local mixed race community into believing we were the BNP.

We have a lot of work to do to change public opinion of our group, but we are getting tired of being associated with any political parties.

We would gladly march alongside any Muslim, Jewish in fact ANY other group regardless of colour, shape, sex etc etc who agree with our 2 main issues.

1. STOP ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS/EXTREMISTS

2. STOP IMPOSING SHARI'AH LAW


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

discokermit said:


> no they don't. it's not going to.


 er yes of course it is not! and neither is it going to go national socialist but that does not stop you being against national socialism does it???


----------



## revlon (Aug 10, 2009)

you tube footage is beginning to appear.

The young lad in green getting done over is pretty grim watching for all sorts of reasons

This one, not just asians but black lads (and girls) and the odd white face in pursuit of (?) into a pub


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

cheers for that Jim .. worth listenning to but STILL wtf is going on .. they are clearly alleging it is a secret state play 

rough copy of broadcast 

"  .. something we've been quite wrongly linked with   .. potentially a very dangerous development .. almost certainly not a white english thing ..  luton is a tinderbox  .. on one side growing very aggressive muslim population .. on the other everyone else ..  playing a very dangerous game on the far left here .. perceive young muslims as radicals .. seem oblivious to the fact that muslims will use them .. for their islamic revolution ... reminds me of situation in bradford .. we've impressed on our people not to get involved these protests as will spark a major disturbance and .. very suspicious whilst i've got sympathies .. it's suspicious .. i don't understand why .. NG lthe eft want huge conflagration with young muslims and the police etc ... from anti muslim side .. sure a lot  of it is genuine pent up frustration .. sure lot of people are genuine if misguided but do wonder if there is an element of the security services using this as a honey trap ... if they wanted to stop this they could stop all this dead in their tracks .. very interesting stuff .. we are well positioned as a party to take .. of muslim disorder ..  people at the top use uaf and left as a militia!! D) .. looks similar to zimbabwe .. trouble could benefit us but state thinks it could hurt us .. a misreading .. millions of people have not voted for us who will .. we do not have anything to do with this demonstration .. cameron is part of uaf .. to reiterate we are not involved no one should be involved there is a political route .. if the govt allows confrontation shows they are involved ...  clear footage of placards we are not the BNP .. they are not and they never will be " 


so any clearer! lol i'm not!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> STOP IMPOSING SHARI'AH LAW



True, its really starting to piss me off all these legally sactioned stonings, amputations and beheadings in the dhimmified United Kingdom. When will I ever be able to shave this damn beard off? 

edit to add - happy 1000th posting to me! I never thought I'd live to see the day (wipes tear).


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

Its interesting that most of the young girls of all ethnicities are horrified by the attack on the boy in green,


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

Jeff Robinson said:


> True, its really starting to piss me off all these legally sactioned stonings, amputations and beheadings in the dhimmified United Kingdom. When will I ever be able to shave this damn beard off?
> .



yes that is one of the questions they never answer! how does it affect them??? if does not BUT they then go on to say WHEN the islamists get a majority THEN they will crack down


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 10, 2009)

cantsin said:


> surprised at hearing such patronising stuff from you tbh - as if firmed up asian lads need Swappy divs to mobilise them  ?




Nothing patronising about it. Quite simply they are unlikely to have known about it unless the SWP saw an advantage for _themselves_ in them doing so. Afterall the casuals were few in number and hadn't even called a demonstration. No one would have known unless the SWP started beating the media drum. A complete non-event. Just like the NF 'march' in Bradford where just 5 fronters turned up and the local Asians nearly burned down the town. 

Of course when it came to the conspiracy charges the SWP were no where to be seen. 

From reports it dosen't seem that the SWP were involved in the actual fighting yesterday either with the Mirror stating that the 'UAF is largely Asian youths'. 

It dosen't take much working out does it.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> statement from EDL http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/edl-news-080809.html
> 
> Latest News 10/08/09
> 
> ...




Where is sharia law being imposed exactly? Have we missed something here?

As for their press release so wht? In Luton they attacked a kebab shop, whatw as that about? Singing that they 'hated Muslims'. Yup, guaranteed to get Muslims on their demo that..... 
In Whitechapel they made it perfectly clear they didn't feel like they were in England anymore. What was all that about? The implication ie colour and immigration is pretty clear. This isn't a case of poor little misunderstood nice boys. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> Nothing patronising about it. Quite simply they are unlikely to have known about it unless the SWP saw an advantage for _themselves_ in them doing so. *Afterall the casuals were few in number and hadn't even called a demonstration. No one would have known* unless the SWP started beating the media drum. A complete non-event. Just like the NF 'march' in Bradford where just 5 fronters turned up and the local Asians nearly burned down the town.
> 
> Of course when it came to the conspiracy charges the SWP were no where to be seen.
> 
> ...



I agree, however the bit in bold stretches credibility. A 'demo' like that, in Birmingham, which they did have contrary to what you claim, would have attracted a certain level of attention. However that the UAF stirred it up for their own ends aswell is also not in dispute.


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

on the SU blog, 'victory to the new intifada' or something like it....


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

CU statement 

"Some 2000 muslems and left wing police haters were on the streets, and spent the day attacking lone whites, and small groups, most of whom were nothing to do with our protest. Our main group were NOT attacked, nor involved in any violence as they were surrounded by police, but the police turned a lot of our supporters back on the trains, or sent them away, preventing a lot from reaching the protest, and standing by while some were attacked. This just serves to demonstrate how bad this country has got, when Islamic and left wing mobs are allowed to run around attacking people, while any attempt to protest against the state of affairs this country is in by normal people is met with police harrassment and arrests.

Innocent people with their kids leaving football matches were also attacked by Muslems, which is a disgrace. Will these thugs faces be plastered all over the papers asking for info like they do with football hooligans? Dont hold your breath. All in all it was a success, and if everyone had been able to get there we would have had around 500. Next time will be bigger now, thanks to the photos of the disgusting attacks on British people trying to speak up against extremists and their supporters.

The next one will not be arranged via Faceache, we will arrange it via the Inner Circles secret forums, so we will arrive unnanounced and neither the police or the scum will know any details.

See the Inner Circle forum for details."


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 10, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> Nothing patronising about it. *Quite simply they are unlikely to have known about it unless the SWP saw an advantage for themselves in them doing so. *Afterall the casuals were few in number and hadn't even called a demonstration. No one would have known unless the SWP started beating the media drum. A complete non-event. Just like the NF 'march' in Bradford where just 5 fronters turned up and the local Asians nearly burned down the town.
> 
> Of course when it came to the conspiracy charges the SWP were no where to be seen.
> 
> ...



Asian lads don't use Facebook, that's what you're saying?  Don't be daft.


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

just been looking at MSM coverage, which seems to be becoming more prevalent as the day goes on:the picture of the 'man in green' is everywhere,


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> CU statement
> 
> "Some 2000 muslems and left wing police haters were on the streets, and spent the day attacking lone whites, and small groups, most of whom were nothing to do with our protest. Our main group were NOT attacked, nor involved in any violence as they were surrounded by police, but the police turned a lot of our supporters back on the trains, or sent them away, preventing a lot from reaching the protest, and standing by while some were attacked. This just serves to demonstrate how bad this country has got, when Islamic and left wing mobs are allowed to run around attacking people, while any attempt to protest against the state of affairs this country is in by normal people is met with police harrassment and arrests.
> 
> ...



Aye, nothing inflammatory, bigotted, racist, stereotyping or even close in that rant eh?!


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Aug 10, 2009)

revlon said:


> you tube footage is beginning to appear.
> 
> The young lad in green getting done over is pretty grim watching for all sorts of reasons
> 
> This one, not just asians but black lads (and girls) and the odd white face in pursuit of (?) into a pub



That looks like complete farce. It's just a bunch of kids running around.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 10, 2009)

I am not sure what to think on this. 

I dont think this was like Bradford, where the appalling UAF behaviour on the day got people jailed. Bradford was about a handful of NF'ers at most- some of whom were there to demonstrate, not fight. This lot seemed quite different. There were 20 plus involved in the casuals group,and if unopposed, may have grown among those hanging around to see what was going on and to see which way the wind was blowing

Without UAF mobilising there would at least have been this mob swaggering through town as if they owned the place. The UAF motives, namely recruitment and building for Codnor were transparent, but without them, I doubt the muslims lads woud have turned out in the numbers they did

I think this was a lose-lose situation for antifascism. Turn up and what happened happened. Dont turn up and get some random muslims beaten to pulp

There is a case for not rising to every provocation by some internet-only sadcases, or even the BNP, but on the face of it, this seemed different.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

barthsnotesonreligion has been doing a bit of work on this 

http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/

and note lol on the CU website that there is a picture of Chris Renton ( seen talking gibberish on a youtube video elsewhere) of the BNP under a anti BNP placard hmm


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Divisive Cotton said:


> That looks like complete farce. It's just a bunch of kids running around.



And, at the 'crucial moment' UAF nowhere in sight.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> barthsnotesonreligion has been doing a bit of work on this
> 
> http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/
> 
> and note lol on the CU website that there is a picture of Chris Renton ( seen talking gibberish on a youtube video elsewhere) of the BNP under a anti BNP placard hmm



Barthes also exposes the rather frail claim that EDL isn't anti-Muslim, Rays comments clearly are.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Aye, nothing inflammatory, bigotted, racist, stereotyping or even close in that rant eh?!



 whats your point fed?? i sense a dig!!  

look i and others made the effort to go up there, monitor this whole thing, put ourselves right next to the edl for at least an hour, then spent several hours clocking the various ramapages around New Street, were with 'anti-bnp' 'mob' for a long time, though couldn't keep up with the casuals (they were too young!) so please give us some respect .. we are trying to understand this thing and clearly it is important to do so .. and i am NOT the only one who  does not yet understand it though i suspect i know a lot more about it than most on here including i suspect yourself 

p.s. there is lots of other wierd shit behind the scenes and i am more and more thinking this is as griffin says a honey trap for both english and muslim fundies


----------



## JimPage (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> And, at the 'crucial moment' UAF nowhere in sight.



The chances of UAF stewarding and directing the crowd, even if the wanted to, are very little. They dont have the organisation or interpersonal skills required


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

The October event will be chaos as the SWP/UAF will have its full compliment of students by then...


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Barthes also exposes the rather frail claim that EDL isn't anti-Muslim, Rays comments clearly are.



paul ray is no longer edl .. keep up  http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> whats your point fed?? i sense a dig!!
> 
> look i and others made the effort to go up there, monitor this whole thing, put ourselves right next to the edl for at least an hour, then spent several hours clocking the various ramapages around New Street, were with 'anti-bnp' 'mob' for a long time, though couldn't keep up with the casuals (they were too young!) so please give us some respect .. we are trying to understand this thing and clearly it is important to do so .. and i am NOT the only one who  does not yet understand it though i suspect i know a lot more about it than most on here including i suspect yourself
> 
> p.s. there is lots of other wierd shit behind the scenes and i am more and more thinking this is as griffin says a honey trap for both english and muslim fundies



You seem to think these people are poor little misunderstood chaps with a progressive agenda. Rarely are you it sems capable of doing anything but sit on the fence. Why is that?
There's a difference between understanding and refusing to criticise.....


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> paul ray is no longer edl .. keep up  http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/



They're still more than involved, made clear on his blog and on football websites by a Luton Town lad. They have had NO grief on the demos and their ideas have not been criticised on those demos.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

fed look of course this is anti muslim! you think anyone is arguing it is not???? the issue is as always how to deal with it .. the idiots on here like spion favour ( from their armchairs) a full frontal assault using the foot soldiers of muslim youth .. who wil get nicked and banged up .. and will provide a massive propaganda victory for the far right and state .. you have common sense i know .. so you will see this is too complex for such an approach .. the position of EDL/CU is one that i suspect  the majority of people in this country support .. against bombers and burqhas??? i would say 90% of non muslims ( and 50% at least of muslims) would support that 

so we need to be canny .. and we do need to work out if it is a BNP front, possible, an EDP front more likely, simply a single issue coalition of angry and ex army and casuals, very likely, or a state play, possible 

until we understand this making cheap statements doesn't help 

what i would urge people to do is of they are not already on, is to get on as many facebooks, websites and forums to check all the chat, and feed it back responsibly.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> fed look of course this is anti muslim! you think anyone is arguing it is not???? the issue is as always how to deal with it .. the idiots on here like spion favour ( from their armchairs) a full frontal assault using the foot soldiers of muslim youth .. who wil get nicked and banged up .. and will provide a massive propaganda victory for the far right and state .. you have common sense i know .. so you will see this is too complex for such an approach .. the position of EDL/CU is one that i suspect  the majority of people in this country support .. against bombers and burqhas??? i would say 90% of non muslims ( and 50% at least of muslims) would support that
> 
> so we need to be canny .. and we do need to work out if it is a BNP front, possible, an EDP front more likely, simply a single issue coalition of angry and ex army and casuals, very likely, or a state play, possible
> 
> ...



So why put up their bollocks pressers where they claim to not be anti-muslim, claim to be willing to march alongside muslims. I suggest you read elsewhere, where the talk is of 'paki this' paki that'. The attack on the kebab shop in Luton, the chanting of we hate Muslims. This is not too complex as to need to ponder over it for months. 

The majority of people possibly support the return opf the death penalty, does that mean we take a nice soft a[pproach to pro hanging parties and groups. You're so desperate to distance yourself from the UAF/SWP that you're unable to be, rightly imho, criticial of the useful idiots of this groups of reactionary idiots and the cretinous behaviour of the UAF/SWP typed. 

Both those who defend these cunts and those like Spion who happily spunk away at theior keyboard whilst real life gets played out are a joke. The beneficiaries are neither of the two but the BNP and the BNP know this full well.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

so you recommend a full on attack the next time they appear?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> so you recommend a full on attack the next time they appear?





> Both those who defend these cunts and *those like Spion who happily spunk away at theior keyboard whilst real life gets played out are a joke*.



Does it look like I do?


----------



## belboid (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> so you recommend a full on attack the next time they appear?



what do you actually recommend?  you've been utterly silent on that.  you merrily repeat all their press releseases uncritically, and are happy to go along with their claims about being nothing to do with the BNP, but as for actual proposals....


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

belboid said:


> what do you actually recommend?  you've been utterly silent on that.  you merrily repeat all their press releseases uncritically, and are happy to go along with their claims about being nothing to do with the BNP, but as for actual proposals....



Durruti is right, this is a complex issues because we are meant to choose between two distinct opposing sides. This is not the 1970's! There are extremely reactionary, racist and dangerous elements in both sides that will parasite off the main organisations EDL and UAF for political purposes. The EDL know this thats why they made a good attempt to dissuade far-right politicos from getting involved but the issue is that they are based and organised around fighting "firms" who inherently are autonomous when it comes to deciding what to do. The UAF have shown a complete irresponsibility to the defence. They had a small number of stewards (in the trot not antifascist sense) and therefore were powerless to make an organised defence, this did lead - it seems - to a few attacks by opportunists on just randon young white lads. 

The priorty must be at this stage to have organised defence not 15 year-olds with too much testosterone all hyped up and potentially risking a long stretch if they get caught.

p.s. the trades council had sticks and bottles thrown at them when they turned up as people thought they were the BNP!!


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 10, 2009)

belboid said:


> what do you actually recommend?  you've been utterly silent on that.  you merrily repeat all their press releseases uncritically, and are happy to go along with their claims about being nothing to do with the BNP, but as for actual proposals....


 seriously i am not sure yet .. i think this may well be a provocation from a number of sources. 

 and ffs i am reprinting their stuff to save people the bloody time I have spent on it of ye of little faith


----------



## belboid (Aug 10, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> The EDL know this thats why they made a good attempt to dissuade far-right politicos from getting involved



you think that was genuine??!!  that strikes me as astoundingly naive


----------



## Spion (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> those like Spion who happily spunk away at theior keyboard whilst real life gets played out are a joke.


Sorry, what have I actually said that you disagree with here?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> Sorry, what have I actually said that you disagree with here?



You're whooping it up at the results of the UAF winding people up. Thinking that somehow the picture of peo[ple getting attacked by 5/6/7/8 people whilst on the ground is some great victory for anti-fascism. The idea that PR boosts for the BNP are somehow a good thing.


----------



## Spion (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> You're whooping it up at the results of the UAF winding people up.


I think it was a good thing that this EDL demo was prevented from effectively spouting its racist shit and from potentially going on the rampage and attacking ethnic minorities. Don't you?



Fedayn said:


> Thinking that somehow the picture of peo[ple getting attacked by 5/6/7/8 people whilst on the ground is some great victory for anti-fascism.


 Now you're in fantasy land. Where did I say this? If they were racists from the EDL demo they got what was coming to them. If not then it is deplorable to attack people willy nilly. But, on this, you'll note that the eyewitness reports higher up the thread said that white people were not attacked randomly (tho there may have been one or two exceptions, and that's something that only better organisation on the day can deal with.) 



> The idea that PR boosts for the BNP are somehow a good thing.


The best propaganda victory of the day sent the message - "if you think you can come on these EDL demos to have a go at the pakis and get away with it with impunity, think again"

BTW, was the SP involved in this?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> I think it was a good thing that this EDL demo was prevented from effectively spouting its racist shit and from potentially going on the rampage and attacking ethnic minorities. Don't you?
> 
> Now you're in fantasy land. Where did I say this? If they were racists from the EDL demo they got what was coming to them. If not then it is deplorable to attack people willy nilly. But, on this, you'll note that the eyewitness reports higher up the thread said that white people were not attacked randomly (tho there may have been one or two exceptions, and that's something that only better organisation on the day can deal with.)
> 
> ...



I personally wish it hadn't gone ahead. But the TV/press images are not what some great victory, lone people being leatherd, this IS what happened. You can put them down to mistakes, but mistakes like this are now travelling round the world underlined with far-right replies, hardly a coup for anti-fascism at all.

Have a pop at everyone who's got a racist opinion? Why not do this with some of the cunts like Chaudhury and his ilk? Neither side are on the side of the working-class. 
I also think that the EDL demo was likely to have received short-shrift even if the UAF hadn't whipped it up a bit more. It's perfectly possible to see what actually happebned instead of whooping it up from elsewhere.
No, the best propaganda of the day was a young lad on the floor getting a shoeing of 5/6/7 asian/black lads.... Sadly that propaganda wasn't for the Left/wiorking-class.
No idea if the SP were involved, ask someone who's a member.


----------



## Spion (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> I personally wish it hadn't gone ahead.


You might get your wish. I notice the EDL/CU site has said it won't organise through Facebook again and will not publicise it's next event in advance. I reckon the cops will also be less likely to allow them to do these things in future given the response the EDL/CU got, largely from politically unafilliated ethnic minority youth. And if that's what happens I will be happy that a group that tries to equate all Muslims with terror bombers will have been stopped from publically whipping people up.

Soz, I thought you were SP


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> You might get your wish. I notice the EDL/CU site has said it won't organise through Facebook again and will not publicise it's next event in advance. I reckon the cops will also be less likely to allow them to do these things in future given the response the EDL/CU got, largely from politically unafilliated ethnic minority youth. And if that's what happens I will be happy that a group that tries to equate all Muslims with terror bombers will have been stopped from publically whipping people up.



I have no care for the EDL lot, but the claim that it';s a 'victory' without a thought for how it plays out, for how it will be received and seized upon by the BNP is where I have my real concerns.



> Soz, I thought you were SP



Many years ago yes, left in 2000.


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> The best propaganda victory of the day sent the message - "if you think you can come on these EDL demos to have a go at the pakis and get away with it with impunity, think again"



It's macho bullshit like that, which will mean it will happen again.
30th August for the next demo in Brum, according to rumors on the Internet.

I am still to be convinced that those lone white males being kicked in the head by Asians, had anything to do with the demo.
They were all robbed as well apparently.

The pictures are being pinged all over the Internet, those brave warriors kicking lone men on their own in the head on the floor, should expect the Old Bill to be becoming through their door at 5am in the morning.

Meanwhile those in the UAF and SWP who got the crowd going by talking about a BNP demo, which they knew was a lie, won't get touched by the Old Bil. If there was justice they would be nicked for incitement.

With those pictures all over the Internet, race relations has just took a turn for the worse in this country. Well done the UAF and the SWP.


----------



## Spion (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> I have no care for the EDL lot, but the claim that it';s a 'victory' without a thought for how it plays out, for how it will be received and seized upon by the BNP is where I have my real concerns.


My main concern is that a far right grouping that wants to whip up white youth in a thinly veiled attack on Asians that could result in racist attacks is not allowed to do so. How individual events that form part of that play in the wider media or on right wing websites is down the priority list for me. I mean, there's always the possibility of someone rightly getting a kicking being portrayed as an innocent victim and vice versa, so you'll never win that game


----------



## Spion (Aug 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> It's macho bullshit like that, which will mean it will happen again.


Yeah, like I'm that influential  Anyway, it's the EDL/CU that have the decision over whether they do what they did again.

Quite rightly, a lot of people do not like groups of racists standing around their city centre shouting slogans that equate all Asians/Muslims as bombers.


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> Yeah, like I'm that influential  Anyway, it's the EDL/CU that have the decision over whether they do what they did again.
> 
> Quite rightly, a lot of people do not like groups of racists standing around their city centre shouting slogans that equate all Asians/Muslims as bombers.



Manchester, Luton, Dunstable and Birmingham again, plans for next EDL demos


----------



## Spion (Aug 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Manchester, Luton, Dunstable and Birmingham again, plans for next EDL demos


What's your point, sonny?


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Aug 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Manchester, Luton, Dunstable and Birmingham again, plans for next EDL demos



birmingham on the 30th of this month.. 

I do fear that the "counter" protest at the weekend will only encourage more to turn out for edl/cu next time round.  they couldnt get better publicity than the videos/photos that are kicking around after the weekend.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> Quite rightly, a lot of people do not like groups of racists standing around their city centre shouting slogans that equate all Asians/Muslims as bombers.



Which includes those of us who have grave concerns about what happened on Saturday and the consequent propaganda boost for the BNP.


----------



## Spion (Aug 10, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Which includes those of us who have grave concerns about what happened on Saturday and the consequent propaganda boost for the BNP.


So what do you do about it?

I see no alternative to being involved and making sure the message that random attacks are unacceptable is spread as widely as possible in the counter demo


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> What's your point, sonny?



The point being they have not been put off, the reverse it seems.
Maybe next time they might bring some muscle.

I am really concern how this is going to play out in the months to come, after the Weekend events, and those awful photos.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> The point being they have not been put off, the reverse it seems.
> Maybe next time they might bring some muscle.
> 
> I am really concern how this is going to play out in the months to come, after the Weekend events, and those awful photos.



I don't see what alternatives there are to opposition though.

Unless anyone is genuinely buying the 'we ain't racist guv, honest' line. Which I am not buying at all.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> So what do you do about it?
> 
> I see no alternative to being involved and making sure the message that random attacks are unacceptable is spread as widely as possible in the counter demo



Certainly don't whip asian/black youth up. If asian/black youth independently do their own thing then that's just too bad for the EDL. But now, given the antics of the SWP/UAF, their bragging how it's a victory etc etc the Left could well get be 'seen' as defending Islamists and attacking critics. This is not just about dishing a few slaps out and bragging about doing the 'kuffar' as some seem pleased to see. it's also about how it plays in a wider sense.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

belboid said:


> you think that was genuine??!!  that strikes me as astoundingly naive



I was there. I saw what happened. The BNP boycotted the event, so did the NF and the few boneheads that turned up. Next time it will be different I think, its now bigger than EDL/CU. 

Word has it that August 29th in Harrow and August 30th in Luton are CANCELLED, The big push is for BRUM on August 30th.


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

what sources are you using?


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

Surely going back to Brum on the 30th can only be for 'revenge', they have made their point there such as it is, (the EDl, that is) what a nightmare.


----------



## belboid (Aug 10, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> I was there. I saw what happened. The BNP boycotted the event, so did the NF and the few boneheads that turned up.



sorry, boneheads boycotted the event by turning up???


----------



## treelover (Aug 10, 2009)

A question


If Choudry and co can have the right to march then isn't it consistent that another group opposing Islamic Fundamentalism also have that right, leaving aside who the group may consist of, just the principle...


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> statement from EDL http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/edl-news-080809.html
> 
> Latest News 10/08/09
> 
> ...



Is there anyone who doesn't really agree with both issues ? The trouble is tactically them marching isn't going to have much effect on either.


----------



## cantsin (Aug 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> What's your point, sonny?



that it's all the leftys / asians / blacks fault - it always is with him - waste of space


----------



## lostexpectation (Aug 10, 2009)

who is imposing shariah law

i thought  protest was against what chaudry did with the boy, was that extreme, fundamentalist, terrorism, bombing?


----------



## moon23 (Aug 10, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Is there anyone who doesn't really agree with both issues ? The trouble is tactically them marching isn't going to have much effect on either.



If there hadn't been a counter-demo who would have heard of them? Instead they have been launched into the media who have jumped on it as a story of racial tensions being stoked up. This in turns stokes up racial tensions. 

They are keeping to a strong line about not being racist and simply opposing extermism so the best method of defeating this group would actually be entryism amongst left and muslim groups or simply ignoring them so only a handful of people who actually see the protest hear about it.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

belboid said:


> sorry, boneheads boycotted the event by turning up???



4  boneheads turned up, all looking the part. Took one look at the "Black and White Unite" banner of the EDL and left.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> what sources are you using?



I won't answer that. 

Anyhow the Harrow one is on and some Nigerian Christian group is supporting it. Its seems like it is gonna be an ultra-christian do by the sounds of it.


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> A question
> 
> 
> If Choudry and co can have the right to march then isn't it consistent that another group opposing Islamic Fundamentalism also have that right, leaving aside who the group may consist of, just the principle...









Choudry's mob out in Lewisham on August 1st for their Islamic Road Show. They should be no platformed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 10, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> Choudry's mob out in Lewisham on August 1st for their Islamic Road Show. They should be no platformed.


dates for future appearances?


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Aug 10, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> dates for future appearances?



http [BREAK] ://www.islam4uk.com/current-affairs/events/eventlist


----------



## audiotech (Aug 10, 2009)

Be cool. 

Thirties blackshirts and fascist marches.

A wave of attacks on synagogue's in the 40's

Serious threats of the lynching of black people in Notting Hill in the 50's.

A wave of attacks on Asians and the left in the 70's.

The left is not as yet facing, as it did in the 70's, a _British Movement_, a group Searchlight estimated had 3,000 members at it's height, made up of mainly young white males, many recruited from the football terraces, led by a milkman. With many amongst it's ranks holding duel membership with the main fascist grouping of the time, the NF.

I suspect this EWDL/CU is a tempting vehicle by some for a new _British Movement_, whose targets this time will be any 'Muslim' and their 'left supporters'?

If so, I'm with those thinking time to nip this in the bud.

As for the BNP? They'll hope to make some gains from this and perhaps they will? It also may turn out to be a poisoned chalice?


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## articul8 (Aug 10, 2009)

fantasist.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 10, 2009)

That's him.


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## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Be cool.
> 
> Thirties blackshirts and fascist marches.
> 
> ...



are you fucking serious MC5? The BM were a fully fledged neo nazi  organisation who thought the NF a Tory front. The EDL may be nationalists, they may be confused, they may be tilting at windmills, they may be manipulated by elements sympathetic to the BNP but they aren't nazis and they certaintly aren't a BM mark 2.


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## Raw SslaC (Aug 10, 2009)

Does The Left care that there is a difference between EDL/Casuals United, BNP, NF, C18, aryan martyrs brigade(!), BFF, WNP, BPP?? Seems like they are all "Nazis", do people think that this backfires? I mean the BNP are supposedly Nazi's but they got almost 1 million votes?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 10, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> Does The Left care that there is a difference between EDL/Casuals United, BNP, NF, C18, aryan martyrs brigade(!), BFF, WNP, BPP?? Seems like they are all "Nazis", do people think that this backfires? I mean the BNP are supposedly Nazi's but they got almost 1 million votes?



It should do , despite contrary to some of the tosh uttered on here there has always been football hoolies, football firms, football supporters  that have all sort of views but drew a line with neo nazis and their like. 

The trouble is is that UAF are just a one trick pony , nothing was learnt from Oldham etc. Its a pantomine horse version of anti fascism and quite simply about time anti fascists stopped looking for nazis and started looking for political alternatives for the working class.


----------



## revlon (Aug 10, 2009)

the uaf's response to saturdays events is absolutely fearless in its arrogance. 

_"The UAF counter demonstration acted as an important focal point for the anger that many people in Birmingham, especially those from the Muslim community, rightly felt about the fact that a gang of thugs was being allowed to hold a racist march in the city centre. Our rally was noisy but peaceful. The trouble that arose took place after it had ended and was sparked by a group of racists who broke off from the EDL demonstration and marched towards the anti-fascist rally to goad protesters.

The blame for the violent scenes that ensued lies wholly with the racist football hooligans that came to Birmingham to intimidate and attack the Muslim community. The police should have heeded the many warnings from the local community that this group was intent on anti-Muslim provocation, instead of naively accepting EDL claims that they were "not racist" at face value"._
http://www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=90808


----------



## october_lost (Aug 11, 2009)

Was any literature passed out? Did anyone aside from the far-right criticise political islam?


----------



## JimPage (Aug 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> the uaf's response to saturdays events is absolutely fearless in its arrogance.
> 
> _"The UAF counter demonstration acted as an important focal point for the anger that many people in Birmingham, especially those from the Muslim community, rightly felt about the fact that a gang of thugs was being allowed to hold a racist march in the city centre. Our rally was noisy but peaceful. The trouble that arose took place after it had ended and was sparked by a group of racists who broke off from the EDL demonstration and marched towards the anti-fascist rally to goad protesters.
> 
> ...


Arrogant, but true in it`s facts. If UAF had not mobilised the youth, the it would have been the result? As it was clear that, a few mistakes aside like the attack on the Trades council folk, only nazis were targetted by the youth. It wasnt as if innocent bystanders had got attacked or something as all of the reports indicate otherwise- this was multiracial groups against nazi youth


----------



## articul8 (Aug 11, 2009)

From what has been reported it is very dodgy to assume that casuals/EDL are "Nazis" - they seem like a gang of young scrotes without much of an ideology beyond stirring it.  Perhaps a few hardcore nazi-sympathising odd-balls are trying to manipulate them, but I've seen no evidence whatsoever. that this is some serious far right mobilisation.

Bennett is trying to talk up a "street-fighting" variant of anti-fascism to distract from their poverty of ideas in dealing with the real threat politically.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 11, 2009)

UAF statement might as well be titled *Full steam ahead into the trap.* 

And odd mixture of puffed up posturing side by side with  appeals to the police to come and sort it out please as we can't - see the concluding paragraph esp



> "Nobody – least of all the police – should be taken in by the EDL's pretence that these marches and rallies are not aimed at whipping up race hatred against Muslims and Asians. They are racist demos and we should not allow them to take place. Unite Against Fascism was right to help organise opposition to the EDL and we will endeavour to do the same against any similar demonstration."


----------



## revlon (Aug 11, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Arrogant, but true in it`s facts. If UAF had not mobilised the youth, the it would have been the result? As it was clear that, a few mistakes aside like the attack on the Trades council folk, only nazis were targetted by the youth. It wasnt as if innocent bystanders had got attacked or something as all of the reports indicate otherwise- this was multiracial groups against nazi youth


 
completely untrue mate, in its facts. 

Ironically EDL in its statement admitting it fucked up, recognising its mistakes, almost apologetic in its failure to get over the fact they're not a racist group (ie they took in what actually happened on the day) and the uaf posturing and chestbeating not even aware, never mind concerned, they just helped accelerate what could've been a managable if predicatble social conflict into a polarising and hardening of racial tensions in an area just waiting to explode. 

The bnp weren't ever part of the equation on saturday (but we can predict they will benefit massively), it's almost as if the uaf had to invent the threat of the bnp's presense to justify it's own tawdry political stance. Certainly if you take away the bnp's presense in this what you have is essentially the uaf defending islamic fundamentalism.

They can notch this up as a massive propaganda victory within the comforting walls of Marxism 2010 perhaps, but it still leaves an ugly and unresolved residual mess that won't dissappear once the placards have been neatily folded away.


----------



## revlon (Aug 11, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Arrogant, but true in it`s facts. If UAF had not mobilised the youth, the it would have been the result? As it was clear that, a few mistakes aside like the attack on the Trades council folk, only nazis were targetted by the youth. It wasnt as if innocent bystanders had got attacked or something as all of the reports indicate otherwise- this was multiracial groups against nazi youth



maybe read uaf's statement while watching the youtube footage of the young lad in green getting a kicking. A few mistakes aside indeed.


----------



## purplex (Aug 11, 2009)

Whether or not the uaf were involved the local lads were never going to stand for these racist twats taking the piss. The uaf are merely a sideshow.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> maybe read uaf's statement while watching the youtube footage of the young lad in green getting a kicking. A few mistakes aside indeed.



I think it is agreed that the man in green was one of the fascists and not an innocent bystander. The only report of innocents being targetted is the Trades Council people?


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> Certainly if you take away the bnp's presense in this what you have is essentially the uaf defending islamic fundamentalism.


Oh what twaddle. 

The EDL/CU are an organised attempt to demonise British muslims/Asians, which was clear from their 'Muslim bombers off our streets' chants. It's the organised manifestation of the kind of twats who shout 'bomber' at Asians in the street (which has been a pretty common thing you hear and hear about where I live).

The issues are clear to me, but yeah, but real life's messy - especially when the victims of racist name-calling decide to fight back, and I'm surprised so many are shitting their pants over this.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> completely untrue mate, in its facts.
> 
> Ironically EDL in its statement admitting it fucked up, recognising its mistakes, almost apologetic in its failure to get over the fact they're not a racist group



Its self evident that they are at very least Islamophobic, and therefore very probably racist as well


----------



## articul8 (Aug 11, 2009)

which makes them Nazis does it


----------



## revlon (Aug 11, 2009)

purplex said:


> Whether or not the uaf were involved the local lads were never going to stand for these racist twats taking the piss. The uaf are merely a sideshow.



this is entirely possible. 

But the uaf introduced, in fact shoehorned in, political issues that were never part of of the dynamic. Without the uaf it would've been at best local asian lads fronting up a politicised football firm, a local issue where EDl would've recognised they don't have the same purchase as in luton. 

What has been gifted to Griffin now is the platform of almost universal credibility on all sides:

1. look at the violent left-wing thugs
2. look at the violent racist thugs (nothing to do with us, even their banners say so)
3. look at the violent muslim thugs attacking ordinary _indigenous_ folk
WE TOLD YOU SO!

They have also galvinised genuine nazis and facsists into coming to the defence and support of the edl.


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

So, nothing different to what Griffin says anytime anything like this happens? I really don't care. It's not like the national media is full reports showing a blubbing Griffin bemoaning these injustices. You have to go looking for it, so why you reproduce it here as if it's the most important aspect of all this is beyond me.

And the bottom line stands - organise demos to chant racist shit in a city centre like Brum and it won't be pain-free


----------



## JimPage (Aug 11, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> UAF statement might as well be titled *Full steam ahead into the trap.*



A trap maybe, but what was the alternative to what UAF did which would also have upheld the principle of No Platform?. To try to physically stop the fascist demo was the only option on the table

I think you are over-estimating any bad publicity over this- none of the papers particualrly condemn the muslim community for defending itself


----------



## treelover (Aug 11, 2009)

> I think you are over-estimating any bad publicity over this- none of the papers particualrly condemn the muslim community for defending itself




They don't have to, the photos/images will surely do the talking in many peoples minds


----------



## articul8 (Aug 11, 2009)

JimPage said:


> the fascist demo



how many genuine fascists were on it, as opposed to a few ignorant young scrotes with bugger all better to do?


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

treelover said:


> They don't have to, the photos/images will surely do the talking in many peoples minds


So you're saying that anyone that sees an image of a white kid being kicked by an Asian kid is racist because they will automatically assume the white kid couldn't possibly deserve it?


----------



## Raw SslaC (Aug 11, 2009)

JimPage said:


> I think it is agreed that the man in green was one of the fascists and not an innocent bystander. The only report of innocents being targetted is the Trades Council people?



no no no! The kid in the green was robbed by a group, people then steamed in because everyone was hyped up. The poor lad was beaten to a pulp. as was reported by those that were there, this happened a few other times but people (other asian youth) intervened to stop it.

There were only a few known neo-nazis around, the rest were 40 year-old football casuals wanting to have a go at "asians".


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> 4  boneheads turned up, all looking the part. Took one look at the "Black and White Unite" banner of the EDL and left.



aah, I see, ta


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> I think it was a good thing that this EDL demo was prevented from effectively spouting its racist shit and from potentially going on the rampage and attacking ethnic minorities. Don't you?
> 
> Now you're in fantasy land. Where did I say this? If they were racists from the EDL demo they got what was coming to them. If not then it is deplorable to attack people willy nilly. But, on this, you'll note that the eyewitness reports higher up the thread said that white people were not attacked randomly (tho there may have been one or two exceptions, and that's something that only better organisation on the day can deal with.)
> 
> ...



please educate yourself before spouting nonsense on here 

1) the edl demo DID go ahead and was quite clear ( if honest i do not know) that it was ANTI-racist and ANTI-nazi

2) those involved in the street fights were NOT overtly associated with EDL 

3) whatever 

4) not that i could see at all


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

belboid said:


> you think that was genuine??!!  that strikes me as astoundingly naive


 have you seen the pictures? of the placards? 'black and white unite' 'we hate nazis etc' 'we are not bnp we are not racist' .. ok so tell me what is going on. you think it is simply a big con trick? maybe maybe not


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## Blagsta (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> have you seen the pictures? of the placards? 'black and white unite' 'we hate nazis etc' 'we are not bnp we are not racist' .. ok so tell me what is going on. you think it is simply a big con trick? maybe maybe not



black and white unite can still be racist if they unite against asians.  There is considerable racism from some black people towards asians in Birmingham


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

october_lost said:


> Was any literature passed out? Did anyone aside from the far-right criticise political islam?[/QUOTE i didn't pick up the uaf leaflets but there was an anonymous photocopied one saying "say no to edl bnp" which made the correct point that 'the bnp .. have a lot in common with islamic extremism .. etc' interestingly as i say it was anonymous


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> UAF statement might as well be titled *Full steam ahead into the trap.*



indeed ..


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> Oh what twaddle.
> 
> The EDL/CU are an organised attempt to demonise British muslims/Asians, which was clear from their 'Muslim bombers off our streets' chants. It's the organised manifestation of the kind of twats who shout 'bomber' at Asians in the street (which has been a pretty common thing you hear and hear about where I live).
> 
> The issues are clear to me, but yeah, but real life's messy - especially when the victims of racist name-calling decide to fight back, and I'm surprised so many are shitting their pants over this.



organised by who? and btw do you think no one should be angry that members of their community are prepared to blow them up?? you live in west yorks? one of the bombers came from dewsbury .. what goes round comes round 

btw and what is it you do politically again??


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

JimPage said:


> A trap maybe, but what was the alternative to what UAF did which would also have upheld the principle of No Platform?. To try to physically stop the fascist demo was the only option on the table


 hang on are you saying UAF should have trashed the EDL demo!!! oh boy that would have been great .. asian ( the white lefties hanging back) attacking banners saying 'black and white unite .. we are not racist.. we are not nazis .. etc"


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> have you seen the pictures? of the placards? 'black and white unite' 'we hate nazis etc' 'we are not bnp we are not racist' .. ok so tell me what is going on. you think it is simply a big con trick? maybe maybe not



plenty there were clearly straightforward racist fuckwits. a few had a bit of gumption about them, and knew it was best to try to pretend otherwise, and a small number were probably quite genuine.  In only being racist against people from a presumed muslim background


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> black and white unite can still be racist if they unite against asians.  There is considerable racism from some black people towards asians in Birmingham


 yes very true .. all the placards can equally taken as a wind up against muslims ..  there were also ones attacking islamic attitudes to gays and female genital mutilation


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> this is entirely possible.
> 
> *But the uaf introduced, in fact shoehorned in, political issues that were never part of of the dynamic. Without the uaf it would've been at best local asian lads fronting up a politicised football firm, a local issue where EDl would've recognised they don't have the same purchase as in luton. *
> 
> ...



Exactly, had the UAF not got involved and clearly so, then it would have been exactly this. Something that whilst messy could have, indeed would clearly have, been dealt with and put to bed, soto speak, without real lingering tensions. Sadly, with the involvement of the UAF, the Left is seen and will be seen, as intimately involved with and defending Islamicists/Political Islam/Islamic Fundamentalism. The idea that turning up to oppose a demo rejecting political Islam-however 'backward' that demo's political content may be, will be seen as anything other than defending Political Islam is wishful thinking. As a result the 'Left' is dragged in on the coat-tails of the UAF showboating.




Spion said:


> So, nothing different to what Griffin says anytime anything like this happens? *I really don't care. It's not like the national media is full reports showing a blubbing Griffin bemoaning these injustices. You have to go looking for it, so why you reproduce it here as if it's the most important aspect of all this is beyond me.*
> 
> And the bottom line stands - organise demos to chant racist shit in a city centre like Brum and it won't be pain-free



Fuck sake, are you really this blind? It doesn't have to be the 'national media'. Birmingham, unlike neighbouring Dudley and Sandwell, is a city where the BNP have struggled to make inroads. The West Mids media however are happily reproducing pics of white folks on the deck-racist or otherwise-getting attacked by ostensibly black/asian mobs. Whatver the in depth truth of this the media image is pretty much all there is, context isn't necessarily explained in these pictures.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

belboid said:


> plenty there were clearly straightforward racist fuckwits. a few had a bit of gumption about them, and knew it was best to try to pretend otherwise, and a small number were probably quite genuine.  In only being racist against people from a presumed muslim background



ok this seems to me to be oneof two things 

1) an attempt to inflame genuine islamophobia ( p.s. phobia means fear NOT hatred .. there is nothing evil in fearing something you do not know or understand especially when it seems that thing is attacking you ) by various groups, mainly ex squaddies and their footie mates and with various fasc trying to manipulate it 

2) the above but with more worrying manipulation 

whatever as revlon and slaac and fed and others are saying this is not something to steam into blindly


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> the edl demo DID go ahead and was quite clear ( if honest i do not know) that it was ANTI-racist and ANTI-nazi





durruti02 said:


> have you seen the pictures? of the placards? 'black and white unite' 'we hate nazis etc' 'we are not bnp we are not racist' e what is going on. you think it is simply a big con trick? maybe maybe not


I think you're the most gullible fool on these boards. But you seem convinced these people are being honest. In that case I think you should get in touch with them and join them. Then you can really find out what they're all about. Go on, you agree with them - do it.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Exactly, had the UAF not got involved and clearly so, then it would have been exactly this. Something that whilst messy could have, indeed would clearly have, been dealt with and put to bed, soto speak, without real lingering tensions. Sadly, with the involvement of the UAF, the Left is seen and will be seen, as intimately involved with and defending Islamicists/Political Islam/Islamic Fundamentalism. The idea that turning up to oppose a demo rejecting political Islam-however 'backward' that demo's political content may be, will be seen as anything other than defending Political Islam is wishful thinking. As a result the 'Left' is dragged in on the coat-tails of the UAF showboating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 100%


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and btw do you think no one should be angry that members of their community are prepared to blow them up?? you live in west yorks? _one of the bombers came from dewsbury .. what goes round comes round_


  You're trying to justify white blokes shouting 'bomber' at random Asians on the streets of West Yorks now. You're either naive beyond belief or genuinely dangerous


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> I think you're the most gullible fool on these boards. But you seem convinced these people are being honest. In that case I think you should get in touch with them and join them. Then you can really find out what they're all about. Go on, you agree with them - do it.



are you really as thick as you appear? i quite clearly have said i do not know if they are honest or not 

and you have never met the sort of people in these groups?? guess not .. you're out of your depth spion .. it is very common for people to have black mates, not be racist or be soft racist, hate politics left and right AND be anti islamist .. 

go and sort out all the racists where you live  bye bye


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> You're trying to justify white blokes shouting 'bomber' at random Asians on the streets of West Yorks now. You're either naive beyond belief or genuinely dangerous


 grow up ffs a few drunks big deal .. the world is not as you want it .. some of us are trying to do something about it .. you are just a moaner ..

 btw IF society was as bad as racist as islmophobic as people like you make out where that dewsbury bomber came from would have seen a pogram, mosques and community centres burnt out, street burnt out  .. but what happenned?bugger all! 56 people killed 700 people injured by british muslims, yet NO race riots, NO mosques burnt down, NO muslims beaten by mobs ..


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Exactly, had the UAF not got involved and clearly so,


 You want the UAF to have not got involved and been clear about it? You're tying yourself in knots here with your sectarianism.

And why is it sectarianism? Because you're prepared to let your political differences with the UAF get in the way of the job of stopping a load of knuckledraggers intimidating ethnic minority people in Brum city centre on a Saturday afternoon. 






Fedayn said:


> Fuck sake, are you really this blind? It doesn't have to be the 'national media'. Birmingham, unlike neighbouring Dudley and Sandwell, is a city where the BNP have struggled to make inroads. The West Mids media however are happily reproducing pics of white folks on the deck-racist or otherwise-getting attacked by ostensibly black/asian mobs. Whatver the in depth truth of this the media image is pretty much all there is, context isn't necessarily explained in these pictures.


Well, fuck me, the press - the bosses' press - doesn't give context? Whatever next, Einstein? Are you going to be against strikes when the media reports them unfavourably from now on too?


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ok this seems to me to be oneof two things
> 
> 1) an attempt to inflame genuine islamophobia ( p.s. phobia means fear NOT hatred .. there is nothing evil in fearing something you do not know or understand especially when it seems that thing is attacking you )



Oh please! Dont try and justify their fucking bigotry. It is a clearly racist slogan, with a clearly racist target.


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yet NO race riots, NO mosques burnt down, NO muslims beaten by mobs ..


I think that's a case of watch this space if the EDL/CU are allowed to expand


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> You want the UAF to have not got involved and been clear about it? You're tying yourself in knots here with your sectarianism.
> 
> And why is it sectarianism? Because you're prepared to let your political differences with the UAF get in the way of the job of stopping a load of knuckledraggers intimidating ethnic minority people in Brum city centre on a Saturday afternoon.



Yup, as I thought, a clueless clown who flexes his muscles over the web whilst not having to feel the consequences. No tying in knots at all. The involvement of the UAF has given the impression-fucking idiots that they are-the 'the Left' is onside here. Like it or not the perception has gione round. I know you like to feel all macho and brave behind your keyboard about how great it is. But you clearly understand fcuk all aboput consequences ansd political reality. That you fail to acknowledge the clear winners in this without wanking yourself silly about peiople getting beat up says it all. 



> Well, fuck me, the press - the bosses' press - doesn't give context? Whatever next, Einstein? Are you going to be against strikes when the media reports them unfavourably from now on too?



So a strike is analogous to this is it? What utter pish yet again. Have you managed to pass the teenage testosterone fuelled mindset yet?


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Yup, as I thought, a clueless clown who flexes his muscles over the web whilst not having to feel the consequences. No tying in knots at all. The involvement of the UAF has given the impression-fucking idiots that they are-the 'the Left' is onside here. Like it or not the perception has gione round. I know you like to feel all macho and brave behind your keyboard about how great it is. But you clearly understand fcuk all aboput consequences ansd political reality. That you fail to acknowledge the clear winners in this without wanking yourself silly about peiople getting beat up says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> So a strike is analogous to this is it? What utter pish yet again. Have you managed to pass the teenage testosterone fuelled mindset yet?


Oh dear, here comes the abuse 

It comes down to this:

I'm not prepared to let a load of racists intimidate people on a Saturday afternoon in a British city. You're clearly happy to let them organise with impunity.

I think that's an abstention from engaging with the 'political reality' you talk about, which in concrete terms means Asian people in Brum city centre get abused by these knobs. You can live with that, can you?


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> Oh dear, here comes the abuse
> 
> It comes down to this:
> 
> ...



As I have said, if the demo took place and of their own volition asian/black/wahetever youth did a number on these people then so what, I won't sit and worry over their health. That a few mouthy fuckers got a slap isn't really anyhting to worry about in this context. Revlon has already made this point and I agree with him, you in your rush to claim i'm ok with people being racially abused chose to ignore this, but hey ho. But you shriek at the idea of being mocked for your stupidity. 

That, however, is not what happeend. In the eyes of a large number of people the Left is tied in, not with defending asians/blacks and other minorities but with defending a certain strain of reactionary Islam. They are also tied in with defending those people against their critics.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 11, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> are you fucking serious MC5? The BM were a fully fledged neo nazi organisation who thought the NF a Tory front. The EDL may be nationalists, they may be confused, they may be tilting at windmills, they may be manipulated by elements sympathetic to the BNP but they aren't nazis and they certaintly aren't a BM mark 2.


 
I'm being deadly serious. Maybe not building an overtly nazi organisation, but certainly a reactionary, combative, nationalist one with working class youth in it's ranks to manipulate. They want the numbers and they will want people who are up for a scrap.

It's an attempt to have an explosive summer that will assist the BNP.

Important to stop it now.

The EDL are naive fools who are being used.


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> As I have said, if the demo took place and of their own volition asian/black/wahetever youth did a number on these people then so what, I won't sit and worry over their health. That a few mouthy fuckers got a slap isn't really anyhting to worry about in this context.


 So I'm right? You don't think anyone should have organised against this EDL thing but you're quite happy for asian/black/white youth to give them a kicking. It's a curious stance to take



Fedayn said:


> That, however, is not what happeend. In the eyes of a large number of people the Left is tied in, not with defending asians/blacks and other minorities but with defending a certain strain of reactionary Islam.


YOu'll have a job proving that - unless you want to start quoting Griffin. The youtube videos seem to be pretty clear in that a very multiracial crowd of youth (by no means overwhelmingly asian) thought they were chasing a bunch of white racists. The Sunday Mercury reporter on the video described the EDL/CU as racists or facsists or somesuch


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> So I'm right? You don't think anyone should have organised against this EDL thing but you're quite happy for asian/black/white youth to give them a kicking. It's a curious stance to take



Not 'curious' at all, entirely realistic. Do you think it was gonna pass off with no reply? The important point is what happened, not what would have been the best scenario. 



> YOu'll have a job proving that - unless you want to start quoting Griffin. The youtube videos seem to be pretty clear in that a very multiracial crowd of youth (by no means overwhelmingly asian) thought they were chasing a bunch of white racists. The Sunday Mercury reporter on the video described the EDL/CU as racists or facsists or somesuch



Funny how here you are entirely happy with what the media say....


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> black and white unite can still be racist if they unite against asians.  There is considerable racism from some black people towards asians in Birmingham



Black and white unite placards are racist?
Fucking hell, there is going to be a big bonfire of placards at the  UAF and SWP HQ!


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you sonny?


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> The important point is what happened, not what would have been the best scenario.


 What should be the responses of the left, anti-racists etc the next time the EDL/CU call a demo? 

Or is 'what happened' after the next one more important than thinking what outcome we'd like to see?


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 11, 2009)

Given the bullshit from the UAF and SWP that the EDL are the BNP, and have done their bit towards giving the impression that Muslims are all on Jihad to the general public, with the beating and robbing of probably innocent lone white males.

Maybe the white women of the UAF and the SWP, should cover themselves up on the next demo to show solidarity with militant Islam.
They have done it once before on a demo outside the Israeli embassy, where the SWP women were told to cover their heads.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 11, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Given the bullshit from the UAF and SWP that the EDL are the BNP, and have done their bit towards giving the impression that Muslims are all on Jihad to the general public, with the beating and robbing of probably innocent lone white males.
> 
> Maybe the white women of the UAF and the SWP, should cover themselves up on the next demo to show solidarity with militant Islam.
> They have done it once before on a demo outside the Israeli embassy, where the SWP women were told to cover their heads.


 
You really are full of shit.


----------



## Spion (Aug 11, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Given the bullshit from the UAF and SWP that the EDL are the BNP, and have done their bit towards giving the impression that Muslims are all on Jihad to the general public, with the beating and robbing of probably innocent lone white males.
> 
> Maybe the white women of the UAF and the SWP, should cover themselves up on the next demo to show solidarity with militant Islam.
> They have done it once before on a demo outside the Israeli embassy, where the SWP women were told to cover their heads.


Completely batshit


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 11, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Black and white unite placards are racist?
> Fucking hell, there is going to be a big bonfire of placards at the  UAF and SWP HQ!



why not read what i wrote? Are you capable of that?


----------



## tbaldwin (Aug 11, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I'm being deadly serious. Maybe not building an overtly nazi organisation, but certainly a reactionary, combative, nationalist one with working class youth in it's ranks to manipulate. They want the numbers and they will want people who are up for a scrap.
> 
> It's an attempt to have an explosive summer that will assist the BNP.
> 
> ...



Alternatively it could end up being very very bad news for the BNP. It could be something that helps an alternative to the BNP grow.
The biggest thing that has held the BNP back and always will are the roots and organisation of the BNP go back to really loony naziness....
Without that past they could probably treble their vote.
What do UKIP have to say bout these protests? I would have thought they had far far more to gain.


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 11, 2009)

Letter in the Birmingham Post:

''Dear Editor, I would like to start by apologising to the people of Birmingham for the events of Saturday evening which I am highly ashamed to have been a part of. However, as a moderate who took part in the UAF protest I would like to set the record straight.

I, like the vast majority of people in Birmingham love the fact that our city is so diverse and vibrant. I felt that this was worth defending, especially from a bunch of trouble makers many of whom were from outside the city.

Unfortunately it turned out the UAF were no more interested in our community than the racists many of us turned out to oppose!

The young Muslims who rampaged through the city streets were incited to violence by UAF activists. I was near the front of the rally in Rotunda Square and I saw how they worked and I saw how it got out of hand.

The UAF should have switched rhetoric when they saw that the young Muslims were getting restless and angry. Instead what they did was get increasingly aggressive speakers to talk about ‘smashing the BNP’ (who not directly involved with the protest) whilst sending agitators into the crowd, with megaphones, to whip up anger there.

Only a few members of the Socialist Workers party, some trade unionists and a few moderate Muslim blokes who had been recruited as marshals on the day, remained to help the Police calm the riot.

I would like to commend the West Midlands Police Force for their sensitive handling of the protest and us protesters during what was a very difficult situation.

However, the ten or so members of the Muslim community who stayed with the protest whilst it was settled are the true unsung heroes of the sad event.

I never got to know their names, however, I am very proud to have worked with them in defusing the tensions that built up between rioters and Police. A true example of why our city is great.

As to the UAF well, I don’t mind announcing that I will never join one of their protests again. Once again I can only say how sorry I am that it all got so out of hand. If we had known how it would turn out then I’m sure a lot of protesters would have stayed home.

The UAF has achieved nothing except to create racial tensions were non existed before.

Yours in penance,

Josh Allen, Bournville''


Fair due to the few SWP members who tried to calm the situation down, and also the ten Muslims and trade unionists he mentioned as well, who deserve nothing but praise.
The UAF agitators should be nicked.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

belboid said:


> Oh please! Dont try and justify their fucking bigotry. It is a clearly racist slogan, with a clearly racist target.


 oh jesus you are all over the place .. islam is NOT a race .. islam is a religion ( in fact which makes it very clear it has no racial element) .. and extreme islam or islamism is a small part of islam which is split into as many factions as christinity 

so which slogan are you on about?? 

and how the fuck am i justifying ANYONES bigotry .. you know something i am evangelicophobic i am jesuitophobic i am scared of many aspects of religion .. but I am NOT islamophobic .. BUT with what is going on in the world i am NOT going to condemn people who know little about religion history and politics ( i.e. most people) for fearing something they see blowing up the twin towers, blowing up buses and tube trains, 'forcing' women to wear burqhas, and saying the will behead those who oppose them etc 

yes *WE* know the politics that lies behind it and it is OUR job to make that clear .. but for now to attack people for being ignorent is simply stupid


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> I think that's a case of watch this space if the EDL/CU are allowed to expand


 lol you WANT it don't you?? fool


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> 1) I'm not prepared to let a load of racists intimidate people on a Saturday afternoon in a British city. You're clearly happy to let them organise with impunity.
> 
> 2) I think that's an abstention from engaging with the 'political reality' you talk about, which in concrete terms means Asian people in Brum city centre get abused by these knobs. You can live with that, can you?



1) they didn't! most people ignored the whole thing .. pantomine football stuff tbh

2) the hoolies were NOT attacking random asians .. the were after who they saw as the asian/muslim firm


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I'm being deadly serious. Maybe not building an overtly nazi organisation, but certainly a reactionary, combative, nationalist one with working class youth in it's ranks to manipulate. They want the numbers and they will want people who are up for a scrap.
> 
> It's an attempt to have an explosive summer that will assist the BNP.
> 
> ...



stop it how?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 11, 2009)

"Yours in penance"?

Not a BNP vicar is it?


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> oh jesus you are all over the place .. islam is NOT a race .. islam is a religion ( in fact which makes it very clear it has no racial element) .. and extreme islam or islamism is a small part of islam which is split into as many factions as christinity
> 
> so which slogan are you on about??
> 
> ...


I take it in the seventies you fully supported protests against rasta's.  After all that's just a religion, and a pretty shitty anti-women, anti-gay one too.

Fucks sake, these demo's are a load of cock against _muslims_ and people _assumed to be_ from as muslim background. They are racist.  And you are making excuses for the racists now, which is fucking shameful.

There is a perfectly fair question of how best to oppose such demo's, one's which show the racists are using a little bit of nous, but pretending they aren't racist is no way to do so.

Your politics seem to have disappeared down a drain


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

interesting letter sonny .. he is a lib dem by all accounts .. and yes i can concur that the crowd were being whipped up ..


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

MC5 said:


> "Yours in penance"?
> 
> Not a BNP vicar is it?



libdem blogger - http://www.ukypforums.org.uk/blog.php?u=2288


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 11, 2009)

belboid said:


> I take it in the seventies you fully supported protests against rasta's.  After all that's just a religion, and a pretty shitty anti-women, anti-gay one too.
> 
> Fucks sake, these demo's are a load of cock against _muslims_ and people _assumed to be_ from as muslim background. They are racist.  And you are making excuses for the racists now, which is fucking shameful.
> 
> ...



belboid ffs if you can't even understand the difference between a religion and 'race' then we can't get anywhere .. and you simply don't understand that there is a generation of blokes who have black mates from work, army,  football, boxing doing security drugs parties, whatever. So to continue with this 'they are just racists' just does NOT work. 


but what they do hate is what they see as islamism or extreme islam. and again their position on islamism is probably the same as 90% of english and 50% of muslims in this country .. to attack them on their position, which is neither that wrong and is overwhelmingly popular is doomed 

that they are being manipulated is the important thing and we need to understand by who and how to stop them

re rastas i remember reading the NME in 1977?? when it had a big article on aswad and being totally shocked as to their views on women .. but rasta does NOT have any role in politics as militant islam and no rastas have blown up the twin towers or london buses and tubes ..


----------



## tbaldwin (Aug 11, 2009)

belboid said:


> I take it in the seventies you fully supported protests against rasta's.



Have you ever thought of writing a script for TV?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> interesting letter sonny .. he is a lib dem by all accounts .. and yes i can concur that the crowd were being whipped up ..



Was you there?


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> belboid ffs if you can't even understand the difference between a religion and 'race' then we can't get anywhere .. and you simply don't understand that there is a generation of blokes who have black mates from work, army,  football, boxing doing security drugs parties, whatever. So to continue with this 'they are just racists' just does NOT work.
> 
> 
> but what they do hate is what they see as islamism or extreme islam. and again their position on islamism is probably the same as 90% of english and 50% of muslims in this country .. to attack them on their position, which is neither that wrong and is overwhelmingly popular is doomed
> ...





of course i understand that you patronising sod (i thought it was meant to be 'trots' who were patronising, you are doing a much better job than the SWP can normally manage!).  The point you are wilfully avoiding is that this use of 'religion' is clearly a pisspoor cover for racism.  I am sure no one on the EDL side ever used a word like 'pakis' to describe those ion the 'other side'. And it is something you refuse to challenge, it would seem.  Which is shameful.

Did you demonstrate against rastas then?  You do know that rastafarianism is a religion don't you?


----------



## belboid (Aug 11, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Have you ever thought of writing a script for TV?


Have you ever actually thought at all?


----------



## tbaldwin (Aug 11, 2009)

belboid said:


> .
> 
> Did you demonstrate against rastas then?  You do know that rastafarianism is a religion don't you?



Brilliant.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> stop it how?


 
I think it's already been stopped. I can't see much more coming from this particular group - they're laughable with their talk of "crusades". The authorities will find this unacceptable, as will the general public.

As I understand it, the UAF negotiated with the police at all stages, with a prominant local councillor involved, who has strong links in the community. Whilst the others - group/groups - didn't and who it seems just turned up with a number from outside the area.

I can't see the Birmingham people, or anyone else for that matter siding with a group of 'hoolies', perceived to be from elsewhere, out to cause trouble and allowing this to happen again can you?

Any other similar groups to emerge are also likely to be short-lived. I can see how it could cause some further problems however.

The initiative in Derbyshire dennisr has alluded to on another thread is a good reference point for anti-fascists.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2009)

I find this whole idea that it's okay to march in a city with the intent of starting fights with (or at the very least intimidating) a community - as long as it's not being done in a "racist" way - _really disturbing_.

It's bigotry. If you go on a march like this or support it, I'm afraid that you are either (a) too stupid to be allowed out without a responsible adult or (b) a bigot. "Muslim bombers off our streets"? Yeah, because the streets are full of "muslim bombers" - what there are on the streets though is muslims.

I imagine the EDL lot were a mix of proper racists, people who've identified a group that they feel they can get away with abusing (i.e. muslims) and just those who are up for a big fight, with of course mixes of the above. The ones just up for a fight are the least immoral IMO. It _isn't_ always "racist" to be a bigot, but we don't let people get away with saying "it's not Jews I hate it's their religion" or "it's not blacks that are bad, I'm no racialist, it's _black culture_" even if they actually mean it because the effect is the same. People being bigotted against other cultural groups.

Sometimes I wonder if people haven't forgotten why racism is actually bad.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 11, 2009)

belboid said:


> libdem blogger - http://www.ukypforums.org.uk/blog.php?u=2288


 



> ...led a series of inflammatory chants and speeches calling for blood shed


 
That is not how those on this thread claiming to be there described it and no video I've seen of the protests indicate an inflammotory chant calling for bloodshed from anyone?


----------



## smokedout (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ( p.s. phobia means fear NOT hatred .. there is nothing evil in fearing something you do not know or understand especially when it seems that thing is attacking you )



phobia actually means irrational fear, as opposed to just fear

just being pedantic


----------



## tbaldwin (Aug 11, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sometimes I wonder if people haven't forgotten why racism is actually bad.



Well Racism can be very very bad fridge magnet and it can also be quite funny.
The thing is that there are degrees of racism. Racism at its worst is still complete poison.
It can lead to people being killed, starving, dying, unneccesarily.....

Some people seem to want to lump in everybody they see as racist in all together.....Its as stupid as judging somebody on the colour of their skin.

Racism is about power and how its used. While people are divided by great inequalities of wealth racism is never going to go away.
Racism at its worst does not come from the likes of the Football casuals, it comes from public schools,the universities,the judiciary.
Its not the people who say there going down the paki shop that need to be confronted for their racism. Its the middle class people who come out with poison like "enriching our culture" and think that its really good that so many immigrants live in london etc....


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> belboid ffs if you can't even understand the difference between a religion and 'race' then we can't get anywhere .. and you simply don't understand that there is a generation of blokes who have black mates from work, army,  football, boxing doing security drugs parties, whatever. So to continue with this 'they are just racists' just does NOT work.



I've already pointed out that just because there and black and white people involved, doesn't mean they can't be racist.  I suspect a lot of their supporters aren't racist (one of my facebook friends is a member of the EDL facebook group as well as Love Music Hate Racism), but I also suspect the movers and shakers are.  AFAIK, there are far right and BNP links.


----------



## treelover (Aug 11, 2009)

> I suspect a lot of their supporters aren't racist (one of my facebook friends is a member of the EDL facebook group as well as Love Music Hate Racism), but I also suspect the movers and shakers are. AFAIK, there are far right and BNP links.




I think this is reasonably fair, but i'm not sure all the 'leaders' of the EDl, etc are


----------



## treelover (Aug 11, 2009)

btw, i asked this before, but why is the EDL marching again in Birmingham on august 30th?, it just seems like provocation, they have made their point such as it is.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Well Racism can be very very bad fridge magnet and it can also be quite funny.
> The thing is that there are degrees of racism.



Well funnily enough I don't think that any "racism" is automatically, like, the utmost evil.

That's not my point though. My point is that there seem to be people defending prejudiced actions carried out on a religious/cultural basis that they would not countenance being carried out on a "racial" basis, even though the reasons are equally as stupid and prejudiced.


----------



## revlon (Aug 11, 2009)

To be honest i'm not really sure how the word racism is being used by people here other than as kind of blugeon.

And i'm not really sure how the word muslim is being used either other than as a flashing neon sign that has the capacity to both dazzle us and blind us. 

When Birmingham sikh's held a protest over "muslim extremism" a couple of years ago it remained a local issue, untouched by the guardians of self-righteous anti-fascism. Would and could that protest have been racist? 

So again what was the role of the uaf in this particular episode, and what purpose did it serve? Any decent enough political organisation i would hope ask that question of itself both before and after the event.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't actually give a shit about UAF. In the grand scheme of things, outside of the TLA leftie ghetto, they mean cock all really. They had little influence here from everything I can see and they'll have little influence in the future. They didn't bring people to the EDL march (they publicised it all themselves) and fights that happened weren't down to them, they were down to the EDL coming specifically to start, and locals being happy enough to give them what they wanted.

edit: okay, that's perhaps being a bit unfair, they did bring people and do some organising, but overall concentrating on their role is missing the point IMO


----------



## treelover (Aug 11, 2009)

> outside of the TLA leftie ghetto




What does 'TLA' stand for ?


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 11, 2009)

Three Letter Acronym


----------



## treelover (Aug 11, 2009)

oh....


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 11, 2009)

it's a geek thing


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 11, 2009)

Yup, that was it.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 12, 2009)

We can slag off UAF, we can slag off racist filth. We can slag off any amount of things, but the real problem is that the nazis are organising more than at any time since the late 70s and the left don't have a cohesive narrative or good enough spread of organisation to appeal to people who are rightly pissed off with the effects of the corrupt capitalist status quo.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> of course i understand that you patronising sod (i thought it was meant to be 'trots' who were patronising, you are doing a much better job than the SWP can normally manage!).  The point you are wilfully avoiding is that this use of 'religion' is clearly a pisspoor cover for racism.  I am sure no one on the EDL side ever used a word like 'pakis' to describe those ion the 'other side'. And it is something you refuse to challenge, it would seem.  Which is shameful.
> 
> Did you demonstrate against rastas then?  You do know that rastafarianism is a religion don't you?



sorry i am being patronising you you are not even bothering to get the basics rights 

this IS NOT being used as a cover for racism .. it is clearly ANTI islamic anti muslim .. and if you know about religion you will no islam is a non racial thing .. it is not relevent whether these are pakistanis or whoevere .. their demo in whitechapel was NOT in a pakistani area 

so please get your facts right before mouthing off 

and you think i am refusing to challenge racism?? fgs belboid you reqally do NOT get politics do you. if life and politics is so straightforward as people like you and spiion think tell me why you are so far behind the game?? 


no of course i did not demonstrate against rastas .. what a stupid thing to say


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I think it's already been stopped. I can't see much more coming from this particular group - they're laughable with their talk of "crusades". The authorities will find this unacceptable, as will the general public.
> 
> Whilst the others - group/groups - didn't and who it seems just turned up with a number from outside the area.
> 
> ...


 this may be right .. they seem totally at odds with each other and paul ray is more and more on about religion  but that does not take away the anger beneath


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> phobia actually means irrational fear, as opposed to just fear
> 
> just being pedantic


 yes thats fine ..


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> this IS NOT being used as a cover for racism .. it is clearly ANTI islamic anti muslim .. and if you know about religion you will no islam is a non racial thing .. it is not relevent whether these are pakistanis or whoevere .. their demo in whitechapel was NOT in a pakistani area
> 
> so please get your facts right before mouthing off
> 
> ...



you're a hopeless mess of gullibility, contradiction and confusion 'durutti' - a pathetic liberal on this issue.  at least that means you'll do fuck all about it, apart from indulge in histrionics on the internet.


----------



## tarannau (Aug 12, 2009)

It's also, as FM points out, a load of pish. These people aren't genuinely mobilising against a visible terrorist-loving faction of fanatical muslims that are threatening their way of life. At best, they're protesting they're numpties protesting against some hyper-exaggerated non-issue in reality. Or more likely they're downright racists and/or easily manipulated stooges who really don't deserve much sympathy. Fuck em


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I'm being deadly serious. Maybe not building an overtly nazi organisation, but certainly a reactionary, combative, nationalist one with working class youth in it's ranks to manipulate. They want the numbers and they will want people who are up for a scrap.
> 
> It's an attempt to have an explosive summer that will assist the BNP.
> 
> ...



Sounds too much like the EDF are the street fighting wing of the BNP theory that UAF are now promoting in an attempt to justify the events. The 'preventitive' stratgey is somewhat undermined by the fact that the football season has now started, that WM Police will make a number of arrests after studying CCTV and impose banning orders and that every Police force in the country will be on top of every EDF demo quicker in order to prevent a repeat of Birmingham and a potential Oldham. 

In the meantime a number of working class youth across all races will be manipulated by the photos and the online bragging. Birmingham wasn't Cable Street, it wasn't Lewisham and UAFs obsession with staged confrontations using asian youth against the wrong facsists as in Oldham or in this case 'anti 'facsists is counter productive


----------



## Relahni (Aug 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I find this whole idea that it's okay to march in a city with the intent of starting fights with (or at the very least intimidating) a community - as long as it's not being done in a "racist" way - _really disturbing_.
> 
> It's bigotry. If you go on a march like this or support it, I'm afraid that you are either (a) too stupid to be allowed out without a responsible adult or (b) a bigot. "Muslim bombers off our streets"? Yeah, because the streets are full of "muslim bombers" - what there are on the streets though is muslims.
> 
> ...



Is this about racism though?  I thought it was more about violence.  All the "anti facist protesters" I have met were more interested in a fight than anything else.  In fact I know one that has gone completely far right wing these days.  

Take away the fight and I could bet my life they would have lost interest.


----------



## JimPage (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Sounds too much like the EDF are the street fighting wing of the BNP theory that UAF are now promoting in an attempt to justify the events.



This does ring true though. The BNP are not returning to the streets any time soon, but the narrative being promoted by UAF/SWP,  and Searchlight is that the BNP are in dissaray, and , in desperation, are returning to street violence.

The BNP are still the main enemy, and the real solution to them, a political alternative, is no nearer. The real battlE isnt on the streets but at the ballot box. 2 bye-elections in winnable wards for the BNP coming up, in Barnsley and Daventry. Where will the left be?


----------



## soam (Aug 12, 2009)

Hmm, well the UAF in Barnsley seem to be focused on setting up a more organised structure to the group with treasurer, secretary etc.

Meanwhile the BNP are running a stall in the town centre every Saturday ....

fiddling while rome burns springs to mind!


----------



## JimPage (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> . . Birmingham wasn't Cable Street, it wasn't Lewisham



Reading the bloodcurdling triumplalism in the latest issue of SW online, would agree. It was in fact Stalingrad, although Stalin would probably stand in awe on Weyman Bennett

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18750


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

Socialist Worker said:
			
		

> The racist English Defence League (EDL) is touted as the street fighting wing of the Nazi British National Party (BNP). ]



who the fuck by?


----------



## articul8 (Aug 12, 2009)

by Weyman et al!

The idea that the BNP will be beaten by physical confrontation is both wrong and dangerous


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

> Two white women with pushchairs shouted encouragement to the rally.





> By 7pm Birmingham’s Bull Ring was under the control of Blacks, Asians, trade unionists and socialists. The Nazis wanted to claim Birmingham city centre as theirs. But they did not pass.



Jesus wept.

Wouldn't it be simple if it was just a re run of the 1970s? However whilst UAF might as well be ANL in the remake , the BNP are not applying for the role of the NF.

This article below seems to set out some valid pointers about where we should be going.......

http://nationofduncan.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/give-it-up/


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## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> who the fuck by?



http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18750


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

Yes, that is where the quote comes from, well read.


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## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> Yes, that is where the quote comes from, well read.



No probs , any thing else I can help with?


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## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> whilst UAF might as well be ANL in the remake , the BNP are not applying for the role of the NF.


It appears the EDL/CU may well be tho. It's clearly trying to recruit football firm muscle as streetfighters


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

else?

you could try and say who you think actually 'touts' the EDL as the street fighting wing of the BNP, rather than just repeating the fact that SW reported the 'fact'.


----------



## Random (Aug 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> It appears the EDL/CU may well be tho. It's clearly trying to recruit football firm muscle as streetfighters



The point is still, though, that the EDL is completely marginal to UK politics.  I'm very happy to see thim got rid of by campaigning, but the sad thing is that this _all the UAF can do[/I; meanwhile the BNP vote will continue unabated.

Like is not facing like. The main antifacist org, the UAF, is not facing down the
main extreme right wing group in the UK - the BNP - but only a very small huddle of wingnuts.

The SWP statements are clearly trying to paper over this gap, by blurring the lines between the BNP and EDL, and pretending that this is something of a setback for the BNP.  It's not.

For me, arguments about whether or not the EDL are racists, or whether they sould be opposed completely miss the point._


----------



## Random (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> else?
> 
> you could try and say who you think actually 'touts' the EDL as the street fighting wing of the BNP, rather than just repeating the fact that SW reported the 'fact'.



The wole point, surely, is that the SWP is basically citing itself, since UAF and the like are the main ones drawing the EDL-BNP link.

You're very bad tempered these days belboid.  Look, even pickmans is mellowing these days.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> It appears the EDL/CU may well be tho. It's clearly trying to recruit football firm muscle as streetfighters



This is the same sort of MC5 type hypothesis that leads to the SW labelling them as the fighting wing of the BNP. Belboid please note.


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

not bad tempered, just cant be arsed with ex-lefties like Steptoe who does nowt but sneer and think he's cleverer than everyone else


----------



## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> This is the same sort of MC5 type hypothesis that leads to the SW labelling them as the fighting wing of the BNP. Belboid please note.


That the EDL consists of and is trying to recruits football firms as streetfighters seems beyond doubt to me. 

Whether it can be called the streetfighting wing of the BNP is not something I've seen proved.

The former does not _lead to _the latter. They're both matters of fact or otherwise that has to be proven


----------



## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

Random said:


> The point is still, though, that the EDL is completely marginal to UK politics.  I'm very happy to see thim got rid of by campaigning


  Me too. In fact I'd argue that a specifically anti-fascist campaign should have as its target manifestations of fascism, ie right-wing street muscle.

The BNP, despite having a fascist core and a capacity for physical violence when needed, is largely an extreme right wing party and has to be dealt with by a much broader political response that deals with the social issues that underly its appeal. I don't think the UAF or any other single issue campaign is or should attempt to be capable of that. Only political parties that campaign on social issues can do that, and at present there isn't much in that regard in the UK.


----------



## Random (Aug 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> The BNP, despite having a fascist core and a capacity for physical violence when needed, is largely an extreme right wing party and has to be dealt with by a much broader political response that deals with the social issues that underly its appeal. I don't think the UAF or any other single issue campaign is or should attempt to be capable of that. Only political parties that campaign on social issues can do that, and at present there isn't much in that regard in the UK.


it's true that the UAF can't deal with the BNP - but do you really mean that is no chance in the UK of the BNP being effectively opposed? Seems a bit sad, seeing as how the BNP surely have fewer than a few thousand activists at most.


----------



## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

Random said:


> it's true that the UAF can't deal with the BNP - but do you really mean that is no chance in the UK of the BNP being effectively opposed?


I wouldn't say there's no chance of them being opposed. And they are being opposed, but at present by a collection of opponents, none of whom comprehensively tackle the issues that underly their appeal in the way a political party could. So, yeah, while thre's no clear alternative they have grown and will grow

Yep, they can do what they do with a few thousand activists. But if there were a few thousand activists in w/c communities who clearly pin the blame for shit/no jobs, poor housing etc on the capitalist class* and its government rather than immigrants and the BNP'd be knocked into a cocked hat

(* and campaigned and won victories by mass action)


----------



## Random (Aug 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> Yep, they can do what they do with a few thousand activists. But if there were a few thousand activists in w/c communities who clearly pin the blame for shit/no jobs, poor housing etc on the capitalist class* and its government rather than immigrants and the BNP'd be knocked into a cocked hat
> 
> (* and campaigned and won victories by mass action)



Yes, I completely agree.  Which is why, surely, this kind of action against the EDL shouldn't be seen as a major victory (not saying that you do), but rather as the _sign of defeat _that it actually is. 'Give up antifascism', to coin a phrase.

Of course, the anarcho-öeft in the UK and so many other palces seems to have recently taken steps further away from action in working class communities in the last few years...


----------



## Ungrateful (Aug 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I wouldn't say there's no chance of them being opposed. And they are being opposed, but at present by a collection of opponents, none of whom comprehensively tackle the issues that underly their appeal in the *way a political party could*. So, yeah, while thre's no clear alternative they have grown and will grow



Not sure why you need a political party to oppose fascism in general or the BNP in particular, and to create coherent, attractive alternatives. You don't need to successfully fight cancer by contracting with another cancer.


----------



## revlon (Aug 12, 2009)

Random said:


> The point is still, though, that the EDL is completely marginal to UK politics.



Surely UK politics is marginal to the edl?

If we take edl at its basest level - a politicised football firm with a mix of often reactionary, contradictory, if occasionally valid, expression of views, then they are, in microcosm, a reflection of what ordinary working class people are capable of feeling (whether its politically okay with the left for them to feel it). 

To paraphrase the angry brigade - the edl are the men and women sitting next to you on the bus.

We can dismiss it with shouts of racism all we want or we can try, as durutti02 and others are doing, to understand what's the fuck is going on?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Aug 12, 2009)

revlon said:


> If we take edl at its basest level - a politicised football firm with a mix of often reactionary, contradictory, if occasionally valid, expression of views, then they are, in microcosm, a reflection of what ordinary working class people are capable of feeling (whether its politically okay with the left for them to feel it).



Oh fuck off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2009)

revlon said:


> Surely UK politics is marginal to the edl?
> 
> If we take edl at its basest level - a politicised football firm with a mix of often reactionary, contradictory, if occasionally valid, expression of views, then they are, in microcosm, a reflection of what ordinary working class people are capable of feeling (whether its politically okay with the left for them to feel it).
> 
> ...


anyone who uses the word 'microcosm' is talking wank.

also, i suspect that if you said to someone out of the edl that uk politics was marginal to them, you'd be nursing a split lip or similar.


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

revlon said:


> Surely UK politics is marginal to the edl?
> 
> If we take edl at its basest level - a politicised football firm with a mix of often reactionary, contradictory, if occasionally valid, expression of views, then they are, in microcosm, a reflection of what ordinary working class people are capable of feeling (whether its politically okay with the left for them to feel it).
> 
> ...



Or we can not post false dichotomies, point out tht they are (overwhelmingly) a tiny bunch of racist fuckwits, AND try to understand wtf is going on.  

Denying their racism, and exagerating their support doesn't help that understanding tho.


----------



## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

Random said:


> 'Give up antifascism', to coin a phrase.


I'd no more give up anti-fascism than I'd give up trades unionism, womens' rights, anti-racism or any other single issue. But none of them are a substitute for a fundamental political response to the social problems capitalism brings with its form of property and enslavement to profit


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> not bad tempered, just cant be arsed with ex-lefties like Steptoe who does nowt but sneer and think he's cleverer than everyone else



I am always fascinated by someone whose abilities include knowing what I do or don't do and how I think on the basis of that person turning up pissed once in a pub in manchester. Don't be so bitter and bad tempered Belboid , you weren't always this way.


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

I didn't turn up pissed Steptoe, I left that way.

And you weren't always a supercilious smartarse, either.  I blame the government.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I wouldn't say there's no chance of them being opposed. And they are being opposed, but at present by a collection of opponents, none of whom comprehensively tackle the issues that underly their appeal in the way a political party could. So, yeah, while thre's no clear alternative they have grown and will grow
> 
> Yep, they can do what they do with a few thousand activists. But if there were a few thousand activists in w/c communities who clearly pin the blame for shit/no jobs, poor housing etc on the capitalist class* and its government rather than immigrants and the BNP'd be knocked into a cocked hat
> 
> (* and campaigned and won victories by mass action)



the few thousand activists would also have to listen to what those communities said and wanted and try to deliver in a way that unites the local working class. That's the diffrence between sloganising and organising.


----------



## revlon (Aug 12, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> anyone who uses the word 'microcosm' is talking wank.
> 
> also, i suspect that if you said to someone out of the edl that uk politics was marginal to them, you'd be nursing a split lip or similar.



 

Alistair Darling, Ed Balls, Ed Miliband, David Cameron, George Osborne, Nick Clegg, Mp's expenses, authorising billions in bank bail-outs, cash for questions, cash for honours, british soldiers being killed in wars only UK politics could justify; i would be heartily disappointed if the edl didn't insist that UK politics was mariginal to them.

I would consider: having a job, worrying about not having a job, not having a job, paying the bills, not being able to pay the bills, buying food, being able to afford the basic necessities, far more central to peole's lives than elected representatives shuffling across the debating chamber out of touch with almost all aspects of ordinary working class living.

The edl feel alienated, disenfranchised, pissed off, unprepresented, powerless and angry. A _microcosm _of the current mood of the working class if ever there was one.


----------



## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> the few thousand activists would also have to listen to what those communities said and wanted and try to deliver in a way that unites the local working class. That's the diffrence between sloganising and organising.


Very profound. Thanks for that


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> you're a hopeless mess of gullibility, contradiction and confusion 'durutti' - a pathetic liberal on this issue.  at least that means you'll do fuck all about it, apart from indulge in histrionics on the internet.



so you make accusations pls back them up 

please show 1) gullibility 2) contradiction 3) confusion 

though btw do admit to uncertainty on this 

i have said you have failed to see the differrence between racism and prejudice based on islamophobia .. you have failed to show i am wrong 

'i'll do fuck all about it' .. oh the fucking irony .. i am one of the few on here who IS doing stuff .. indeed all those who went from london , revlon, slaac, and myslef are deeply involved is various things .. but whatever 

what is it you do again?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

tarannau said:


> It's also, as FM points out, a load of pish. These people aren't genuinely mobilising against a visible terrorist-loving faction of fanatical muslims that are threatening their way of life. At best, they're protesting they're numpties protesting against some hyper-exaggerated non-issue in reality. Or more likely they're downright racists and/or easily manipulated stooges who really don't deserve much sympathy. Fuck em[/QUOTE keep up mate we all know that .. the issue is HOW to 'fuck 'em' as they are mobilising around a very popular issue


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> This does ring true though. The BNP are not returning to the streets any time soon, but the narrative being promoted by UAF/SWP,  and Searchlight is that the BNP are in dissaray, and , in desperation, are returning to street violence.
> 
> The BNP are still the main enemy, and the real solution to them, a political alternative, is no nearer. The real battlE isnt on the streets but at the ballot box. 2 bye-elections in winnable wards for the BNP coming up, in Barnsley and Daventry. Where will the left be?


 10/10


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

JimPage said:


> Reading the bloodcurdling triumplalism in the latest issue of SW online, would agree. It was in fact Stalingrad, although Stalin would probably stand in awe on Weyman Bennett
> 
> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18750




Jim this needs cnping as it is sooo bullshit 

*"This is how to stop the Nazis by Sadie Robinson

Anti-Nazi campaigners won a superb victory on the streets of Birmingham last Saturday.

The racist English Defence League (EDL) is touted as the street fighting wing of the Nazi British National Party (BNP). It tried to hold an anti-Muslim rally in the city centre. 

The Nazis hoped to whip up race hate and create a climate of fear in Birmingham.

Instead thousands of people, from all backgrounds, forced them to flee the city.

This is a shining example of the response we need whenever the Nazis try to organise.

Some people argue that to confront the Nazis is denying their “freedom of speech”.

Allowing them to whip up racism and division is not only undemocratic—it is dangerous.

When the Nazis begin to organise in an area, black and Asian people, trade unionists, LGBT people and others face intimidation and brutal attacks.

But when they are are forced to retreat, it gives confidence to everyone who opposes them.

It shows that people don’t have to put up with living in fear.

The BNP tries to put on a “respectable” face and gain influence by winning elections.

This weekend it will hold its “family-friendly” Red, White and Blue festival in Codnor, Derbyshire.

We need to strip the mask away. The BNP’s ultimate aim is the destruction of democracy.

That is why we need to physically confront the Nazis wherever they try to organise." *

this is just total absolute codswallop .. 

1) the EDL held their rally and went away happy .. 

2) there were NO thousends of protesters  .. a few hundred at the UAF rally and a few dozens street fighters on each side 

3) it is really not clear that either the casuals or the EDL demo can be so easyly dismissed as NAZI


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> so you make accusations pls back them up
> 
> please show 1) gullibility 2) contradiction 3) confusion
> 
> ...


It's all in the thread. Sorry you need things repeating so often.

Your gullible in taking so much of the EDL stuff at face value, confused both as to what to do (as you admit - which means you've contradicted yourself again) and in your notion of what the EDL are, and their racism, and contradictory in your attitudes to opposing bigotry.  And then there are all those other contradictions, such as about how 'we all know' about the EDL lies & bigotry, but at the same time they are convincing hundreds/thousands/millions of those same lies.  Doesn't really hold up, does it?

funny that you say you went along.  you slag others off for wanting to oppose the demo, but then travel a couple of hundred miles yourself!  Do as I say not as I do, eh? And what did you do when there?  Stand around watching as far as I can tell. Very useful.

What do I do?  Try and expose the contradictions and hypocrisy of the histrionic.  Amongst other things.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

Random said:


> The point is still, though, that the EDL is completely marginal to UK politics.  I'm very happy to see thim got rid of by campaigning, but the sad thing is that this _all the UAF can do[/I; meanwhile the BNP vote will continue unabated.
> 
> Like is not facing like. The main antifacist org, the UAF, is not facing down the
> main extreme right wing group in the UK - the BNP - but only a very small huddle of wingnuts.
> ...


_

absolutely .. a distraction at best, a provocation at worst though with a VERY populist message it coudl still break out. frankly i donlt think it will as too many (far rights) cooks will spoil the broth_


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Oh fuck off.


 sorry!!  maybe you could make an argument instead of just being abusive


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Don't be so bitter and bad tempered Belboid , you weren't always this way.


  thats how i see it too  belboid you seem to just want a row instead of engaging with anyone now


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> thats how i see it too  belboid you seem to just want a row instead of engaging with anyone now



I'd much rather not have rows, but if someone says something that i think is just daft/contradictory/way OTT I'll say so. As you do. As lots on here do.  Sorry that that persn is you in this thread, but I think you have been a mess of liberal contradictions.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> It's all in the thread. Sorry you need things repeating so often.
> 
> Your gullible in taking so much of the EDL stuff at face value, confused both as to what to do (as you admit - which means you've contradicted yourself again) and in your notion of what the EDL are, and their racism, and contradictory in your attitudes to opposing bigotry.  And then there are all those other contradictions, such as about how 'we all know' about the EDL lies & bigotry, but at the same time they are convincing hundreds/thousands/millions of those same lies.  Doesn't really hold up, does it?
> 
> ...



1) gullible .. bb i am taking NOTHING at face value 
2) confused? no unsure 
3) and no, no contradiction anywhere in there .. 

so how many times do i have to point out the difference between racism ( the idea of different races having different attributes and that some races are thus better than others) and people who do not like other religions and who are bigots or prejudiced or -ophobes .. as i have said before if you can not even see thsi then your whole attitude to this is entirely fucked .. you clearly have no contact with people who think like this which makes me think you have no contact with w/c people who are not lefties 

and yes i am quite open to the fact that we stood around watching .. i am also entirely happy to admit i do not quite understand what this is all about,  do you really not understand this? that we went to learn? you are spouting off out of ignorance at people who actually know a fuck site more about the subject than you


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> I'd much rather not have rows, but if someone says something that i think is just daft/contradictory/way OTT I'll say so. As you do. As lots on here do.  Sorry that that persn is you in this thread, but I think you have been a mess of liberal contradictions.


 bb a few people are pointing out what you do .. not just me .. 

and re the thread you are so wrong / out of touch / misunderstanding etc etc etc .. i think you should show revlon slaac and me a bit more respect .. we have all done a fuck of a lot of research into this .. you have done none afaict yet you think you can tell us what is right and wrong! .. tbh it is embarressing


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and yes i am quite open to the fact that we stood around watching .. i am also entirely happy to admit i do not quite understand what this is all about,  do you really not understand this? that we went to learn? you are spouting off out of ignorance at people who actually know a fuck site more about the subject than you



and another contradiction   tho obviously _no one_ knows moer about anything than the great durutti!  You're the oone who seems to be looking for a pointless scrap.


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i think you should show revlon slaac and me a bit more respect .



this arrogance and hypocrisy is why i despair of you. A clearly decent bloke, with a sound gutt instinct, but you cant stand not being given the respect you think you deserve.  I'm afraid you haven't said owt worthy of respecting on this thread.

And I have said nothing against or about revlon or rawslaac, so dont try and pretend that I have insulted them in any way.  I've slagged off _your_ hypocrisy and gullibility, no one elses.


----------



## tarannau (Aug 12, 2009)

So that's more of Durrutti's usual posturing about himself understanding the working class better than everyone else again then.  Complete with the usual shallow justifications and excuses for hair splitting bigotry/no it's racism behaviour. Does it really matter?

The causes of bonehead activism aren't tough to guess at, but neither is the fact that I'm not going to shed tears or want to understand the misguided tools who choose to join organisations like the EDL.

I do like Durrutti's unique use of the phrase 'fuck site' though.


----------



## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> we have all done a fuck of a lot of research into this


'research', FFS!  You don't need to pick up a dog turd and stick it under your nose to know it stinks of shit


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> 'research', FFS!  You don't need to pick up a dog turd and stick it under your nose to know it stinks of shit


and how did you find that out?


----------



## Spion (Aug 12, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> and how did you find that out?


 *chortle* Very good


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> and another contradiction   tho obviously _no one_ knows moer about anything than the great durutti!  You're the oone who seems to be looking for a pointless scrap.



bb simple questions .. were you there? have you been on the various EDL /  CU face books for the last few weeks?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> this arrogance and hypocrisy is why i despair of you. A clearly decent bloke, with a sound gutt instinct, but you cant stand not being given the respect you think you deserve.  I'm afraid you haven't said owt worthy of respecting on this thread.
> 
> And I have said nothing against or about revlon or rawslaac, so dont try and pretend that I have insulted them in any way.  I've slagged off _your_ hypocrisy and gullibility, no one elses.


 i am only arrogant with idiots like you who jump in with no fucking idea of what the issue is!  what am i suppossed to think of someone who deos that? and there is NO gullibility unless we take your ignorent uneducated analysis as fact .. hypocrisy? whats that about! lol


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

lol, you honestly think reading their facebook pages constitutes serious research?  well, good luck with that.

No I wasn't (as you already know),  yes I have. You wanna set a quiz, with only those who get 'enough' marks being allowed to continue on the thread?


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i am only arrogant with idiots like you who jump in with no fucking idea of what the issue is!  what am i suppossed to think of someone who deos that? and there is NO gullibility unless we take your ignorent uneducated analysis as fact .. hypocrisy? whats that about! lol



sorry you dont understand what 'hypocrisy' means, oh the poor state of the british education system!

Equally sorry tht you don't have the insight to see your own arrogance, as displayed in your contradictory attitude towards EDL and it's possible sympathisers - that is, people _other than_ me.  Anyone who disagree's with durutti is a fool/ignorant - we've all seen it before, but it in no way makes you arrogant.  Oh, no, no, no.

YOU are making this all personal cos you cant argue the politics.  

Argue the politics, I will from now ignore your ignorant personal bullshit.


----------



## sonny61 (Aug 12, 2009)

The SWP say the EDL are the fighting wing of the BNP?
Even for the SWP , that is one hell of a whopper.

 Listen to what Griffin said about the Birmingham event.
He is obviously delighted with what the UAF did in Birmingham, he could hardly contain his glee.
The other thing was, how suspicious he was of the EDL, and who they really are.
He seems to think there are some sort of honey trap, and it is clear from what he said, he would not touch them with a hundred foot barge pole.

Reading the latest article from the SWP, with their child like lies about the EDL being the BNP.
Would not many come to the conclusion, that the SWP and the UAF are deliberately trying to increase racial tensions for their own purposes?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> I didn't turn up pissed Steptoe, I left that way.
> 
> And you weren't always a supercilious smartarse, either.  I blame the government.



There has always been a bit of me that has been regretably.


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

fair play, at least you can recognise your shortcomings.  If only we were all that self-aware


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> sorry you dont understand what 'hypocrisy' means, oh the poor state of the british education system!
> 
> Equally sorry tht you don't have the insight to see your own arrogance, as displayed in your contradictory attitude towards EDL and it's possible sympathisers - that is, people _other than_ me.  Anyone who disagree's with durutti is a fool/ignorant - we've all seen it before, but it in no way makes you arrogant.  Oh, no, no, no.
> 
> ...



take a look at the first few posts on here 

mine in the OP

 "*I think this demands some serious thought *. the demo on the 8th in Brum is happenning and UAF have called a counter demo .. this is POTENTIALLY disasterously counter productive

*while it is clear that there are BNP and fascists* within EDL/BCAME/CU it is also clear the many of the admins are NOT associated with BNP .. it is also clear there are millions of increasingly angry and frustrated white .. and with good reason .. but who in classic fashion are *picking on a scapegoat* INSTEAD of the real powers" 

and your reply

"*bollocks*, they're a bunch oif racist fuckwits, most of whom probably ARE in the BNP but who think it makes more sense to pretend not to be. there is absolutely no way you can honestly say it is 'clear the many of the admins are NOT associated with BNP' - not *unless you are one of those admins*, which i doubt.

It's a racist rally, and *'durutti' thinks it should be allowed to happen without opposition*" 

and you wonder why people on urban think you are a bit overemotional??


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

sigh, you can't keep away from the personal bullshit can you durutti?  (nor from the selective quoting)

When you can post up some politics I'll get back to you, till then......


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> I am always fascinated by someone whose abilities include knowing what I do or don't do and how I think on the basis of that person turning up pissed once in a pub in manchester. Don't be so bitter and bad tempered Belboid , you weren't always this way.



I was in The Castle for half hour Saturday just gone, flying trip down and back up for the Celtic City game. The Castle has been done up, you can go into the gents without fear of contracting some disease now.... A step up frankly....


----------



## audiotech (Aug 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> This is the same sort of MC5 type hypothesis that leads to the SW labelling them as the fighting wing of the BNP.


 
I believe that all of those initially involved with this group have nothing to do with the BNP and they've made clear their opposition.

Nevertheless, it appears that there has been some contact with individuals linked to the BNP, so I ask myself is this group being manipulated and who gains?

Too many CCTV's and more nouced football supporters than in the 70's, so no updated BM, but the BNP would like to have one.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> sigh, you can't keep away from the personal bullshit can you durutti?  (nor from the selective quoting)
> 
> When you can post up some politics I'll get back to you, till then......


 jesus you have said not ONE substantiated thing on this whole thread .. not one name mentioned, not one link, not one piece of research, not one piece of local knowledge .. NOTHING nothing in this whole thread, but just simply your opinion over and over like you know best  

many more than me are saying similar things, rawslaac revlon reilly fed, people who i have respect for their knowledge of this kind of stuff 

 yet you pretty much ignore them because it appears you like to have a pop at me . sort yourself out PLEASE 

.. you want to talk politics? well come back when you have something based in fact instead of your opinion 

and simply deal with what revlon and slaac have said if you find my replies too arrogent


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 12, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I believe that all of those initially involved with this group have nothing to do with the BNP and they've made clear their opposition.
> 
> Nevertheless, it appears that there has been some contact with individuals linked to the BNP, so I ask myself is this group being manipulated and who gains?
> 
> Too many CCTV's and more nouced football supporters than in the 70's, so no updated BM, but the BNP would like to have one.


 agree


----------



## e19896 (Aug 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> sigh, you can't keep away from the personal bullshit can you durutti?  (nor from the selective quoting)
> 
> When you can post up some politics I'll get back to you, till then......



and the point being belboid and when you likewise when you post up some politics I'll get back to you, till then...... Look through your front door..


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Aug 12, 2009)

e19896 said:


> and when you likewise when you post up some politics I'll get back to you, till then...... L




welcome back! i look foward to more political copy and pastes and other peoples opinions from you..  

when you post up some politics of your own.. then you ll be able to suggest this with more credibility in the future.


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Aug 12, 2009)

i dont have the answer to this, i dont think anyone does. 

I do definately think that the way UAF are handling this is playing right into the hands of the right wingers. After the last demo, they have photos and vids of a group of angry young muslims rampaging and attacking white people at the demo. this will only help to increase interest from other groups to attend in the future. .also with the football season about to kick off, would this not give it the chance of a big firm or two joining together for this?

screaming down microphones about the bnp etc is also not only lies but very reactionary hysteria from the uaf. it is not the bnp.. granted there are a few who are there affiliated to other groups, but the bnp/nf etc wont touch this with a bargepole... it has been very unorganised, chaotic and many nationalists have issues walking under banners of "black and white unite" from the edl. indeed has isolated them from a potential larger support.

I think the first one should have been ignored... no counter demo.. then there would be none of the excitement from the edl about doing it again.. revenge or just to prove a point. Putting out an immediate counter demo has just made it (well it is really) look like two groups of extreme views standing upto each other in a tit for tat style.  

The UAF has got this one wrong (again), tho i feel they are now sucked into it for every protest now. Politically what is the UAfs counter demo message? support sharia law in the uk?  all this shouting bnp and nazi scum noncense has wore thin, seriously innacurate and has given the EDL the media coverage that they needed to keep an interest in these protests.

i wish they would stop being so reactionary. with the postings of how its bnp on the internet, the usual hysterical screams of nazi off our streets and facing up to football casuals... fluffed up style is just a recipe for disaster.  they should have stayed away at the beginning. instead have helped give the EDL momentum and reasons to go out and want to do it again... who will be trying to change the demo so that nationalists will join them as they learn more about politcal protests and playing a game


----------



## cantsin (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> Jim this needs cnping as it is sooo bullshit
> 
> *"This is how to stop the Nazis by Sadie Robinson
> 
> ...


----------



## belboid (Aug 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> jesus you have said not ONE substantiated thing on this whole thread .. not one name mentioned, not one link, not one piece of research, not one piece of local knowledge .. NOTHING nothing in this whole thread, but just simply your opinion over and over like you know best


all of which can equally well be said of you (your links beng just as applicable to my argument - an argument i have made, just cos you disagree with it doesnt mean it hasnt been made) 



> many more than me are saying similar things, rawslaac revlon reilly fed, people who i have respect for their knowledge of this kind of stuff


and, where those have said something, i've responded - in agreement frequently.  but they make different - or maybe just better -arguments to you, i distinguish between their nuanced arguments and your crass (imho) ones.



> .. you want to talk politics? well come back when you have something based in fact instead of your opinion


pot/kettle. as i said before, you've not made a political argument, just a personal one.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 13, 2009)

cantsin;9548661][QUOTE=durruti02 said:


> Jim this needs cnping as it is sooo bullshit
> 
> *"This is how to stop the Nazis by Sadie Robinson
> 
> ...



The most amusing thing about all this SWP chest-thumping is that when the BNP _were_ up for it the SWP ran and ran and ran...everywhere...from glasgow to southampton. Moreover they smeared anyone that did not run as a matter of routine. The who thing may just be self-aggrandising like the WRP calling for General Strike Now! - if not - it wouldn't be a great surprise if the state was not in there somewhere.


----------



## purplex (Aug 13, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> Politically what is the UAfs counter demo message? support sharia law in the uk?



Are you fucking serious? Are you george bush?


----------



## JimPage (Aug 13, 2009)

Joe Reilly;9548871][QUOTE=cantsin said:


> The most amusing thing about all this SWP chest-thumping is that when the BNP _were_ up for it the SWP ran and ran and ran...everywhere...from glasgow to southampton..



I think the test of this will be codnor this weekend - both in numbers UAF are able to mobilise, and the level of their militancy- will they succeed in breaking the police lines on their own without the help of muslim youth?

And if they dont succeed, will a chant of "police protect the nazis" be heard


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 13, 2009)

Weyman in the Guardian 



> "They want an explosion over the summer that will help the BNP. We will have counter-protests in Harrow and Luton. We have to. We won't allow them to march through Luton as they did before. We simply won't allow it."



So what's his logic, give them that explosion, give them the fuse. What a tool. (Note the 'we' which really means local asians - being sublimated to the UAF) is it really this simple to flummox and box in the UAF? To get them to agree to actually help the far-right? Apparently so if all they have is apolitical anti-fascism


----------



## revlon (Aug 13, 2009)

> A spokesman for the anti-fascist organisation Searchlight said: "There are a number of fascist elements that have attached themselves to EDL and Casuals United, but these groups are not extreme rightwing organisations."



someone's going off message


----------



## cantsin (Aug 13, 2009)

JimPage;9549746][QUOTE=Joe Reilly said:


> I think the test of this will be codnor this weekend - both in numbers UAF are able to mobilise, and the level of their militancy- will they succeed in breaking the police lines on their own without the help of muslim youth?
> 
> And if they dont succeed, will a chant of "police protect the nazis" be heard



erm , I'm somehow getting quoted for something that J O R said there, but cant disagree with that anyway...


----------



## JimPage (Aug 13, 2009)

cantsin;9550627][QUOTE=JimPage said:


> erm , I'm somehow getting quoted for something that J O R said there, but cant disagree with that anyway...



Apologies for mis quoting you


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 13, 2009)

From Timesonline



> Former football hooligans regroup in far-Right Casuals United
> Russell Jenkins
> 
> They see themselves as the vanguard in a battle for the soul of Britain against extremist Islamist forces — the “enemy within” bent on imposing Sharia. Casuals United announced their arrival on Saturday when a small army of shirt-sleeved, middle-aged men with beer bellies clashed in a flurry of punches and kicks with young Asians in Birmingham city centre.
> ...


----------



## JimPage (Aug 13, 2009)

Thinking of links to the current situation- consider the NF travelling circus which toured the UK in about 1999-2002 

The same group of 40 NF`ers travelled the country holding marches and demonstrations- Thanet, Leicester, Nottingham, Bermondsey, Oldham, Bradford etc - and the ANL under Julie Waterson trotted after them, demonstrated, picketed, and kept many an antifascist occupied at weekends (the Red Action archives will explain more if this means nothing to people)  

And here we go again/ History repeating itself?

Politically, where are the NF now?. And where are the BNP? And in the long run was Bradford 2001 part of the reason why the BNP broke through with their first councillors in 2002?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> I was in The Castle for half hour Saturday just gone, flying trip down and back up for the Celtic City game. The Castle has been done up, you can go into the gents without fear of contracting some disease now.... A step up frankly....



Is the table football and the clientele still the same?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 13, 2009)

_Current_ footage.

This footage gives a feel of how events unfolded.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

cantsin;9548661][QUOTE=durruti02 said:


> this is just total absolute codswallop ..
> 
> 1) the EDL held their rally and went away happy ..
> 
> ...



cantsin .. while the fighting was going on the EDL were kettled at the Town Hall .. maybe some later joined in but that was not obvious indeed some were seen skullking away .. there MAY well be a link it MAY all be a tag team thing but that was not obvious being there

re those opposing the casuals, sorry but really there were no more than a few dozen, 50-60 (70 at most), 30 or 40 asians, maybe a dozen blacks and half a dozen white .. at one point about 25 emos and goths started running after but i doubt they got stuck in!!


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

belboid said:


> all of which can equally well be said of you (your links beng just as applicable to my argument - an argument i have made, just cos you disagree with it doesnt mean it hasnt been made)
> 
> and, where those have said something, i've responded - in agreement frequently.  but they make different - or maybe just better -arguments to you, i distinguish between their nuanced arguments and your crass (imho) ones.
> 
> ...



bb i really do not wish to have any personal disagreement with you or anyone else ftm, and if you feel i have been personal ( and i do get narky on occassion ) i apologise 

but you came onto this thread like a bull in a china shop .. yes opinions do matter and i suspect you have experience behind yours .. but putting links and cnping what the other side are saying  is crucial to me and you and us making some sort of understanding 

the crucial thing i have said i think you are wrong on is the your racism accusation which i maintain is inaccurate .. i do not feel you have dealt with that this. Maybe the anti sharia position is  reactionary but it is not racism it is differrent


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Weyman in the Guardian
> 
> 
> 
> So what's his logic, give them that explosion, give them the fuse. What a tool. (Note the 'we' which really means local asians - being sublimated to the UAF) is it really this simple to flummox and box in the UAF? To get them to agree to actually help the far-right? Apparently so if all they have is apolitical anti-fascism



bennet is thick but are they ALL this thick .. this is as fucking obvious a trap as i have ever seen


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

MC5 said:


> _Current_ footage.


 so just to give background that mob of muppets having a go and getting done was while the EDL ( of which this film has no footage) were having their demo at the town hall .. again it is quite possible that this was deliberately done .. have half at the town hall and half in the streets though there is no evidence yet of that on the net and tbh they look different .. the hoolies looked like a mix of fasc and kids while the EDL looked liked a load of middle aged blokes! though again that might have been the split


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 13, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Is the table football and the clientele still the same?



It was near empty mate, but still some good beers my mate reckoned. Didn't notice the table football.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> bennet is thick but are they ALL this thick .. this is as fucking obvious a trap as i have ever seen


 
Watch the footage I posted.

You anarchists don't recognise a series of spontaneous events when you see them. 

Calling people thick is just, well thick.

There is an emphasis that the demonstration to oppose violent, fascist methods is multi-faith and multi-racial, which it is.

The UAF stewards seek to calm the situation, alongside the police, whilst being abused by a bonehead. Some trade unionists holding a banner get caught up in the fracas.

After a while, some youth spontaneously break free from the stewards and police cordon, where they join others, asian, black and white to chase off the very unfit and deflated casuals, who are far from being casual I might add.

According to some on here this must have all been planned?

Well, I'm open to persuation that it was?


----------



## Spion (Aug 13, 2009)

MC5 said:


> _Current_ footage.
> 
> This footage gives a feel of how events unfolded.


Right. A pound to a penny the white lads that come and front up to the demo are Blues fans just out of the game that afternoon. The one who shouts 'fucking dirty pakis' at the camera at about 3m40 in seems clear about his motivations.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Right. A pound to a penny the white lads that come and front up to the demo are Blues fans just out of the game that afternoon. The one who shouts 'Dirty fucking pakis' at the camera a couple of minutes in seems clear about his motivations.



By all accounts some of the asian lads fronted a large number of blues casuals in a boozer. Seems the blues lads were happy to oblige and when fronted the asian lads had second thoughts. Discussions elsewhere mentiona few Villa being on the casuals demo, also allegations that some blues lads were with the uaf/asian lads.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Watch the footage I posted.
> 
> You anarchists don't recognise a series of spontaneous events when you see them.
> 
> ...



hey i have no dispute with the vid you post, or the reaction particularly of the kids, though as i say it is only filmed at one end of New Street. At the other end there was the EDL ! 

so it was all a series of spontaneous events? maybe 

BUT you have not responded to the accusation it was a set up. the question is what is the relationship between EDL and the hoolies? so was it all a set up? and could should UAF have done something different  

and there is a strong accusation that UAF wound up the kids to have a go ..

and yes sorry it is daft to say bennet is thick .. but seriously he is regularly totally useless at least .. i debated with him a few years ago and he really did not come across well at all and every since i have seen him being interviewed and again he comes over badly ..


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> By all accounts some of the asian lads fronted a large number of blues casuals in a boozer. Seems the blues lads were happy to oblige and when fronted the asian lads had second thoughts. Discussions elsewhere mentiona few Villa being on the casuals demo, also allegations that some blues lads were with the uaf/asian lads.



what was interesting was that with all the football casuals talk we saw NO colours at ALL on the EDL, the hoolies or the various antis though, though there were a couple of liverpool/man utd tops there i think! 

and yes i know casuals usually don't wear colours BUT thought they might to show representation of differrent CU groups within casuals unity! 

so NO obvious sign at all these blokes were Blues .. tbh i doubt they were .. this has gone around long enough on the net it was going to attract nutters whether EDL planned it like that or not 

there was a small group of white kids on the anti mob wearing burberry deerstalkers and all .. is that what Blues are wearing now:O :O :O very retro!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 13, 2009)

A "set up"? What sort of set up? What was set up by whom?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A "set up"? What sort of set up? What was set up by whom?



various things could be a set up. EDL itself, and the way that there were two distinct actions, a very 'respectable' EDL demo then a mob of hooligans roaming around after a row, or that UAF were being set up to give the very pictures that are doing the rounds of asian kids beating up white kids and old men, or that UAF themselves set up a row by bringing loads of kids into town where a row then becomes inevitable   

so by who? 

the BNP ( or are absolutely denying any involvement .. so that counts them out! lol) or the NF ( lagging in the far right stakes) or any of the other far right groups BFF or whoever

Or elements in MI5 who are looking either to honey trap extremists, far right, UAF and muslim ( and we already have the 'Dave Shaw' incident), which is what Griffin is saying 

or UAF themselves .. you could argue that EDL etc, is irrelevent nonsense that UAF have bigged up to give them credit


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 13, 2009)

I can hardly see any other far-right groups bringing in people to somehow ruin the reputation of the EDL, and there's no indication at all that UAF "brought in" any significant number of people.

Why not the simplest explanation: it was a demo explicitly aimed at provocation based on everything they said, certain members of it were more direct than others, and there was a response?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 13, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I can hardly see any other far-right groups bringing in people to somehow ruin the reputation of the EDL, and there's no indication at all that UAF "brought in" any significant number of people.
> 
> Why not the simplest explanation: it was a demo explicitly aimed at provocation based on everything they said, certain members of it were more direct than others, and there was a response?



yes thats fine and may well be accurate 

but it does not explain why there were two distinct 'demo's' in Brum .. the 'respectable' one ( at pains to make out ( honestly or not) that there were not Nazi, BNP or racist ) and the hoolie one .. your 'simple explanation' does not explain the relationship between them  ... or  the relevance that the  'leaders'  have been arguing for control on the net .. or that a BNP activist is photograhped at the EDL demo in front of a 'we are not BNP and we are nor racist' placard .. nor does it encompass that we already know the Whitechapel demo was almost definately a set up where in the 'organiser' a 'Dave Shaw' disappered and all of a sudden a FIT team appearred .. nor that teh SWP are notorious for hyping situations for their own political capital 

so while on some levels i think the simple explanation works on others i do not think it does


----------



## revlon (Aug 14, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> what was interesting was that with all the football casuals talk we saw NO colours at ALL on the EDL, the hoolies or the various antis though, though there were a couple of liverpool/man utd tops there i think!
> 
> and yes i know casuals usually don't wear colours BUT thought they might to show representation of differrent CU groups within casuals unity!
> 
> so NO obvious sign at all these blokes were Blues .. tbh i doubt they were .. this has gone around long enough on the net it was going to attract nutters whether EDL planned it like that or not



it looks like a tight little crew though. Short-arsed guy in the england shirt and black shorts pops all along that footage and the guy who he's with at the beginning in the black shirt who gets nicked - he has very west midlands/brummie accent. 
Plus the skinny lad who shouts 'paki' later at the camera, the guy runnning with him appears early on with this same crew. I'm thinking it's all part of the same firm who been drinking in the pub, didn't want to stand with the edl demo (especially given the banners) and decided to go it alone.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 14, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> It was near empty mate, but still some good beers my mate reckoned. Didn't notice the table football.



Might be worth going for a drink there when the EDL come to manchester so we can watch the EDF/UAF match


----------



## Spion (Aug 14, 2009)

revlon said:


> I'm thinking it's all part of the same firm who been drinking in the pub, *didn't want to *stand with the edl demo (especially given the banners) and decided to go it alone.


I tend to agree, apart from the 'didn't want to' bit. It appears there were the EDL and UAF demos, both basically kettled at different ends of New Street. Then there was this independent group of lads who were possibly alerted via the EDL leafletting the Blues friendly that afternoon or who just got word of mouth that there was a demo going on. They went and taunted the demo and it kicked off.

(Running battles or chases used to be commonplace in Brum on Saturdays in the late 70s/eary 80s when I was living there. If it wasn't football fans it was rockers v skins or mods or punks. Word used to get around town quickly between groups of kids/youths hanging about)


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 14, 2009)

Spion said:


> I tend to agree, apart from the 'didn't want to' bit. It appears there were the EDL and UAF demos, both basically kettled at different ends of New Street. Then there was this independent group of lads who were possibly alerted via the EDL leafletting the Blues friendly that afternoon or who just got word of mouth that there was a demo going on. They went and taunted the demo and it kicked off.
> 
> (Running battles or chases used to be commonplace in Brum on Saturdays in the late 70s/eary 80s when I was living there. If it wasn't football fans it was rockers v skins or mods or punks. Word used to get around town quickly between groups of kids/youths hanging about)



 ok yes that sounds about right


----------



## revlon (Aug 14, 2009)

Spion said:


> I tend to agree, apart from the 'didn't want to' bit. It appears there were the EDL and UAF demos, both basically kettled at different ends of New Street. Then there was this independent group of lads who were possibly alerted via the EDL leafletting the Blues friendly that afternoon or who just got word of mouth that there was a demo going on. They went and taunted the demo and it kicked off.
> 
> (Running battles or chases used to be commonplace in Brum on Saturdays in the late 70s/eary 80s when I was living there. If it wasn't football fans it was rockers v skins or mods or punks. Word used to get around town quickly between groups of kids/youths hanging about)


Possibly. You lived in Brum? You know the general racial composition of these areas?
Ladywood 
Hodge Hill 
Sparkbrook 
Erdington 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7789784.stm

They're the worst employment areas in the uk - 4 out of the top 5 highest jsa claimant areas in the whole of the uk are in brum. That's pretty fucking grim.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 14, 2009)

revlon said:


> Possibly. You lived in Brum? You know the general racial composition of these areas?
> Ladywood
> Hodge Hill
> Sparkbrook
> ...



Sparkbrook is very asian don't really know about the others.


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## belboid (Aug 14, 2009)

Ladywood also has a large number of asian residents - 50/50 indian and pakistani - as well as a sizeable 'black' population. Less than half is 'white british'

Hodge Hill is very white british, with a much smaller (5%) number of people from a pakistani background

Erdington is similarly white, with a larger black british community


----------



## belboid (Aug 14, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> bb i really do not wish to have any personal disagreement with you or anyone else ftm, and if you feel i have been personal ( and i do get narky on occassion ) i apologise


we can all be a tad narky at times, does us good.  sometimes 



> the crucial thing i have said i think you are wrong on is the your racism accusation which i maintain is inaccurate .. i do not feel you have dealt with that this. Maybe the anti sharia position is  reactionary but it is not racism it is differrent



but here I think you are totally wrong. Without simply wanting to repeat everything from before:

Of course opposing Sharia isn't 'racist' in and of itself, but there is always a context.  In this context it is people, including a signed up BNP member and activist in Renton, from somewhere which is _never_ going to have Sharia Law imposed. It is a false enemy, and I find it very hard to believe that the organisers don't know that full well. It is a tool being used to organise people on an anti-muslim basis, (not simply an anti-extreme islam' basis), and, as we can hear in the video's from saturday, that usually (to most people, and in fact, in most places) means 'pakis'.  And that is straightforwardly racist.  

And as such it should be unreservedly opposed.  From everything I have read and seen about last saturday, the EDL'ers had a pretty shit day, and went of not very happy. The reports on their own websites are distinctly downbeat and unimpressed.  Good. 

Bad, is that UAF seem to have done their usual thing of refusing (in effect) to steward the counter-demo, which meant that the hotheads that were there - and would always be there, whoever organised the demo - were left free to go off and attack anyone they thought looked dodgy.  And that led to the scenes that the BNP will be using as recruitment tool, those of asian kids beating up older white blokes.

The lesson from this, it seems to me, is around proper stewarding of demo's, not around the racism or otherwise of the EDL themselves.


----------



## Spion (Aug 14, 2009)

revlon said:


> Possibly. You lived in Brum?


First 3 decades of my life, near enough. I was from the southern outskirts and went to school on the edges of the inner city in a huge racially-mixed comp. Used to go back there a lot for football after I left until 4 or 5 years ago. Still visit rellys there occasionally.


----------



## lostexpectation (Aug 15, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> Choudry's mob out in Lewisham on August 1st for their Islamic Road Show. They should be no platformed.



what in that banner would fall under no platform policy?


----------



## revol68 (Aug 15, 2009)

lostexpectation said:


> what in that banner would fall under no platform policy?



Islam as a third way ie fascism.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 15, 2009)

EDL video re Brum 8th August - 



couple of questions .. can anyone spot any of the people on there in the fighting later? 
and can anyone put names to faces particularly the redhotchillpeppers man? 

the mixed race guy is called Joel Titus and is a gooner and is on all the groups and the whitechapel video .. he does not appear to be associated with BNP


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 15, 2009)

belboid said:


> but here I think you are totally wrong. Without simply wanting to repeat everything from before:
> 
> Of course opposing Sharia isn't 'racist' in and of itself, but there is always a context.  In this context it is people, including a signed up BNP member and activist in Renton, from somewhere which is _never_ going to have Sharia Law imposed. It is a false enemy, and I find it very hard to believe that the organisers don't know that full well. It is a tool being used to organise people on an anti-muslim basis, (not simply an anti-extreme islam' basis), and, as we can hear in the video's from saturday, that usually (to most people, and in fact, in most places) means 'pakis'.  And that is straightforwardly racist.
> 
> ...



ok we agree on UAF 

on the rest i think you are jumping from one position .. (and yes the opposition to sharia is a of course a false enemy)  saying the thing is anti muslim, i tend to agree ( though see vid below) to saying something is racist .. it may well be that most EDL ARE racist but for us we have to get words right .. it simply is NOT racism .. and calling it this actually gets them off the hook and they can simply point the black faces and mixed race faces who support them and no doubt the hindus .. racism is NOT the be all and end of of evil .. 

"I find it very hard to believe that the organisers don't know that full well" .. knowing some people like this fairly well i do not find it hard at all .. most people are not politically savvy and do not give a fuck about politics and react to things with an immediacy .. there is a strong sense that this IS based to a large extent around the Luton demo by choudrys mob and anger form people who generally hate politics and do not think about it .. 

that it MAY or may NOT be being used as a provocation by BNP or MI5 is another matter


----------



## lostexpectation (Aug 15, 2009)

revol68 said:


> Islam as a third way ie fascism.



third?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 15, 2009)

lostexpectation said:


> third?


 'third way'  is a fascist sub ideology that is 'neither communist nor capitalist' so revols quip at the banner ..


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 15, 2009)

It was Mussolini who coined the term I believe, hardly a sub-ideology!


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 15, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> It was Mussolini who coined the term I believe, hardly a sub-ideology!


 i thought it was the rumanians? not sure but yes i'd say still sub as in only Harringtons NF split then his er Third Way have been the banner wavers in the UK the old BUF and  NF were not Third Way though possibly the current BNP is???


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## Blagsta (Aug 15, 2009)

Fascism initially tried to present itself as the "third way" between communism and capitalism.  tbh, not actually sure now if it was Mussolini who coined the phrase, but it's an idea has been part of fascism since the beginning.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 15, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Fascism initially tried to present itself as the "third way" between communism and capitalism.  tbh, not actually sure now if it was Mussolini who coined the phrase, but it's an idea has been part of fascism since the beginning.


 yes


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## belboid (Aug 16, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i thought it was the rumanians? not sure but yes i'd say still sub as in only Harringtons NF split then his er Third Way have been the banner wavers in the UK the old BUF and  NF were not Third Way though possibly the current BNP is???



I think the first people to use the phrase were the Peronists in Argentina.  Harrington picked the phrase up from some Italians.  

Blair, of course, also tried to say he was 'third way', as did Chavez for a little while (till the bourgeoisie tried to depose him, basically)


----------



## revlon (Aug 16, 2009)

neither washington nor moscow


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## purplex (Aug 16, 2009)

It was all okay until the disco came along, disco is to blame, the disco made us weak, to be strong again we must destroy the disco, get it out of our lives. Only when we have defeated the disco will we regain our strength, power and self-belief - just say no to disco.


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## durruti02 (Aug 16, 2009)

EDL video re Brum 8th August -

repost as it might of got lost! 

have peopel watched this yet .. it is the OFFICIAL (lol) EDL Video of August 8th in Brum 



couple of questions .. can anyone spot any of the people on there in the fighting later?
and can anyone put names to faces particularly the redhotchillpeppers man?

the mixed race guy is called Joel Titus and is a gooner and is on all the groups and the whitechapel video .. he does not appear to be associated with BNP


----------



## smokedout (Aug 16, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Fascism initially tried to present itself as the "third way" between communism and capitalism.  tbh, not actually sure now if it was Mussolini who coined the phrase, but it's an idea has been part of fascism since the beginning.



it's a defining point of fascism imo, fascism is radical and revolutionary, promising economic re-ordering even if it failed to deliver, and the idea of synthesis of left/right and futurist/romantic is what seperates it from extreme conservatism/authoritarianism which was simply more of the same but a bit worse

the bnp in many ways could be defined as an extreme nationalist, conservative party, although they maintain the fascist tradition by piggybanking on working class ideals, and whilst they appear radical, their published policy at least is basically extreme reformism

im not sure that their open propanganda could be considered fascist in the technical sense of the term, in fact, dare i say it, their fetishisation of race and 'the indigenuous' _possibly_ could be said to lean towards nazism rather than traditional fascism


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 16, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> EDL video re Brum 8th August -
> 
> repost as it might of got lost!
> 
> ...


your link is bust already.


----------



## revlon (Aug 17, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> EDL video re Brum 8th August -
> 
> repost as it might of got lost!
> 
> ...


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 18, 2009)

new dates

BIRMINGHAM 5TH SEPT 6PM

LUTON 19TH SEPTEMBER 1715 (RESCHEDULED)

MANCHESTER 10TH OCTOBER

and note http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=122031605779


----------



## audiotech (Aug 18, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and note http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=122031605779


 
I had to laugh at this post from the above facebook page.



> Thank you for your email which I have forwarded to the F1 Operational Command Unit, for reply.
> 
> Regards
> 
> David


 
Mugs.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 18, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I had to laugh at this post from the above facebook page.
> 
> 
> 
> Mugs.


 it seems bizarre they think the police are their enemy when most of the police support them 

eta sorry being dopey .. of course most of these boys have much previous with her majs constabulary curtousy of football


----------



## belboid (Aug 18, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> MANCHESTER 10TH OCTOBER



seems an odd choice.  England away to the Ukraine in a WC qualifier. doesn't seem to be that much going on in Mancs itself - Funeral for a Friend playing,  but i doubt there'd be much of a crossover there.  There's a biggish looking 'Muslim Marriage Event' as well, but they'd be rather giving the game away if they were to demonstrate outside that.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 19, 2009)

belboid said:


> seems an odd choice.  England away to the Ukraine in a WC qualifier. doesn't seem to be that much going on in Mancs itself - Funeral for a Friend playing,  but i doubt there'd be much of a crossover there.  There's a biggish looking 'Muslim Marriage Event' as well, but they'd be rather giving the game away if they were to demonstrate outside that.


 i'll keep a look out for reasons ..


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## IC3D (Aug 19, 2009)

The last one was on 8/8/2009, the 88 being a bit Nazish innit, I'm surprised any resident consiraloons have not picked up on it


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## durruti02 (Aug 19, 2009)

IC3D said:


> The last one was on 8/8/2009, the 88 being a bit Nazish innit, I'm surprised any resident consiraloons have not picked up on it


 was picked up on straight away and casued much anguish ( honest or dishonest) on the casuals/edl forums where they are (honest or dishonest) at pains to say they are NOT nazi


----------



## IC3D (Aug 19, 2009)

I've not contributed to this thread but I get the feeling a lot are alienated for lots of reasons and not Nazis, though probably think they are a bit tasty and up for a ruck with the Pakistani youth who don't they don't mix with and are having loads of media prop saying they are all Taliban and wot not


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## durruti02 (Aug 19, 2009)

"Harrow anti mosque/Sharia protest now rescheduled for September 11th, to combine a rememberance ceremony for the victims of 9/11 and to demand the government protect us from future attacks. This is a Friday, which cant be helped, but please let everyone know. Exact details to follow."


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 19, 2009)

IC3D said:


> I've not contributed to this thread but I get the feeling a lot are alienated for lots of reasons and not Nazis, though probably think they are a bit tasty and up for a ruck with the Pakistani youth who don't they don't mix with and are having loads of media prop saying they are all Taliban and wot not


about right imho though big Q is who is pushing it all?


----------



## IC3D (Aug 19, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> about right imho though big Q is who is pushing it all?



oops.. let me get this right Friday outside a mosque on 9/11 sounds controversial, I guess only time will tell who's behind it but it certainly seems they are targeting the youth


----------



## revlon (Aug 19, 2009)

The harrow mosque protest re-scheduled  or off?


> A PROTEST outside a mosque has been called off after claims it intended to hold Sharia court meetings proved false.
> 
> Thousands of people were expected to descend on Harrow Central Mosque, in Station Road, with members of far-right groups the English Defence League (EDL) and Casuals United set to attend.
> 
> ...



http://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/4553713.Mosque_protest_called_off_after_Sharia_court_denial/

the boys over at stormfront don't seem to be impressed with edl's move.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 21, 2009)

Home sec bans Luton march.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 21, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Home sec bans Luton march.


 i've seen the indy post but is it true? if so that is so sad! using the state to ban this sums up so called anti fascism 

https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/08/436622.html


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## durruti02 (Aug 21, 2009)

ok http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/lut-news/Fears-of-further-violence-prompt.5577389.jp

"'We had no alternative' say police and council


The Home Office has issued a ban on any unofficial marches taking place in Luton for the next three months.

The ban was granted to Beds Police and Luton Borough Council, who feared a planned 'anti-extremism' march on September 19 would mean a repeat of violent scenes from earlier in the year.

Several 'marches' have taken place in Luton in response to disruption caused by Islamic extremists at the homecoming parade for the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Anglian Regiment, nicknamed the Poachers, on March 10.

The most recent, in May, saw protestors clash with police and cause damage to cars and a takeaway shop. A man was also assaulted.

The ban, granted under the Public Order Act, prohibits "any procession or march involving members or supporters of, but not limited to, the English Defence League, UK Casuals United, March For England and United People of Luton" from marching in the town without having made a formal application to Luton Borough Council.

The English Defence League is behind the September 19 event, postponed from the August Bank Holiday weekend, but they have not applied for permission to hold the event.

The league's members want to march in protest at the fact that Luton was not included in the battalion's 'All the 4s' 10-day charity march through several towns and cities, which ends in Hertford on Sunday.

Chief Superintendent Andy Frost, Divisional Commander for Luton, said a significant police presence would be in place to uphold the ban, adding: "The risk the proposed marches pose to public safety has left us with no alternative but to apply for a banning order."

http://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/onlinenews/2009/august/210809_banning_order.html


----------



## Davo1 (Aug 22, 2009)

> ''Weyman Bennett, the joint secretary of Unite Against Fascism, welcomed the ban. "What we have proved is that where we, as a multiracial group, organise and stand up the EDL can be defeated."



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/21/rightwing-march-ban-luton

What does he mean by this? I really don't understand.

It says he's the 'joint secretary'. This means there must be another one.

surely he can't be any worse.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 22, 2009)

Davo1 said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/21/rightwing-march-ban-luton
> 
> What does he mean by this? I really don't understand.
> 
> ...



 brilliant, UAF supports government bans!! sorry but what a lot of wankers


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 23, 2009)

I see that *all *marches have been banned in Luton for 3 months.


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## durruti02 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I see that *all *marches have been banned in Luton for 3 months.


 yes great .. a right victory for democracy 

the liberal left has an all too bad track record in demanding the state take action then finding that the state, suprise suprise, takes a deeply undemocratic action .. wankers


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 26, 2009)

looks like they really building hard for birmingham on the 5th sept .. what is the response so far .. UAF??


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2009)

It's clear these groups are not going away, they are now issuing membership cards, fees, etc


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 27, 2009)

this from Lionheart on 10 August 2009

" The fraud & imposter

They say a picture tells a thousand words and there is no better picture to prove that point than this one.

Due to the fact that I did not want my name dragged into things because of Chris Renton, I had absolutely no other alternative but to disassociate myself from his fraudulent version of the EDL.

On several occasions I pleaded for him to do the right thing and he refused, even coming back with empty threats against me, which left me no alternative but to state my position.

I am not anti-BNP, I am anti the extreme neo-Nazis who cling onto their coat tails because of the founding fathers of the parties original ideology. Nick Griffin has brought the BNP into the main political arena with one million British voters now voting for his party, with the potential of having MPs in Westminster at the next general election.

It is not one million neo-Nazis, it is one million people who are living on the front lines in NULabours modern multi-cultural Britain and see that the ballot box and the BNP are their only hope to turn around the destruction of their communities and future way of life.

I am not political and agree with different people in all parties.

It is maverick grass roots BNP activists wanting to make a name for themselves, by using the BNP name that cause damage to the aims and objectives of the high level BNP politicians who are aiming for power, in order to be able to represent their British voters.

As a Christian, I believe in the story of Saul who became Paul, which reflects anyone who turns to Christ. Based on Nick Griffins stance on Christianity, and his seasoned re-evaluated view on Israel and the Jews, who is to say that he has not reverted back to his Catholic faith and is now leading the party from that stand point?

There is no disputing the Lefties accusations of Chris Renton being a grass roots BNP activist, based upon his Facebook activities several months ago, as those who were on his friends list will confirm. You would have to ask the BNP themselves if he is a registered member and activist though. I defended his position in the Talksport radio interview because somebody’s politics are their own prerogative and has nothing to do with me or the cause I am involved with.

Things took a different course between me and those who I was working with, due to Renton’s influence over ‘Casuals United’. I separated myself from the group due to his actions. He and a few of his internet football friends then went on to hijack the EDL name, then going on their campaign of turning people against me so that they could carry the English Defence League name themselves, without any of my influence, and then out onto the streets of Birmingham.

Renton then changed his Facebook name and started trying to use ‘Casuals United’ as a vehicle for his BNP activities and started asking people to join an anti-UAF protest on behalf of the BNP.

Do high level BNP politicians, such as the two who are now in Europe, want their credibility damaged in the eyes of the electorate by links to football hooligans and riots on the streets of Britain because of the likes of Chris Renton?

It is people like Chris Renton who damage not only the street movement that aims to be a neutral voice for the silent majority within Britain, but also the BNP that is becoming a modern, respectable alternative to the Establishment in Westminster.

Is he an agent of the Left trying to blacken the BNP name? Is he part of a plot by the security services trying to stoke up trouble and blame it on the BNP? Is he a covert BNP activist working on behalf of the BNP? Or is he just someone wanting to make a name for himself, firstly through the BNP and now using the street movement that was birthed in Luton?

I called Chris Renton’s hijacked EDL, a fraudulent copy of the real thing, and you only have to look at the above picture to see this.

Him, standing in front of a placard saying we are not BNP is laughable. The Luton EDL division who created the placards are not BNP, because they have people of all colours and races amongst their ranks. They have been forced into defending this position out in the open when they should be attacking the Islamic militants because of Chris Renton but none of them decided to take the action necessary.

I had no alternative but to state that any banners displayed on the day that were created by Chris Renton & Co were absolutely nothing to do with me.

The email image above was sent to him the day before the infamous Friday meeting that started the chain reaction leading to the division, split and then my complete withdrawal from the 8th August event.

In our email exchange (image below) where I am pleading with him not to use the EDL name, he totally disrespects my religious belief that is the same as all Knights Templars throughout the ages, and then goes on to stand underneath the Templar Cross on the day.

I know for a fact that the leader of the Luton EDL division is a Catholic and has just baptised his children into the faith. He can stand and lead his people under that Cross, because he knows and believes the meaning behind it.

How can anyone degrade the Christian belief like Chris Renton has, and then go on to stand under the Cross, even after he was asked not to? Charlatan!

In the email image below he believes that the movement has nothing to do with me, and that I am the one bringing division and arguments.

Those who I have worked with for several months, until Chris Renton caused the division with myself, and then the eventual split due to the Birmingham newspaper article stating the protest was a Casuals United event, would see things completely differently to that.

After the split from ‘Casuals United’, I petitioned all of the groups to bring their groups under the English Defence League banner: Casuals split

On the day in Birmingham you will see that the Luton EDL division, led by ‘Wayne King’, was the only EDL division present on the day. They, along with their placards, pulled off a professional and organised, peaceful protest against Islamic extremism in the face of extreme violence from the government funded, Moslem-filled, UAF army and the religious Moslems who came out for a war against them.

The fraud and imposter was amongst their ranks and ended up having this picture taken that speaks a thousand words and justifies my stand of pulling out from any involvement whilst he had a hand in the direction of events.

I wonder how EDL youths Joel, who is of mixed race, feels about someone writing on Stormfront under EDL, encouraging neo-Nazis to support the protest?

I wonder, out of all the people involved in the hijacked EDL, who is the most likely to be whipping up support on Stormfront?

No wonder the blacks in Birmingham sided with the Moslems on the day.

The real EDL that the Luton division represented, is not politically motivated, although it does seek to influence political decisions. It is not racist and has people from all walks of life and ethnicities amongst its ranks, protesting under the EDL banner. "

ht-tp://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/

_break links to these sites, ffs! - Crispy_


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## Bajie (Aug 27, 2009)

So it all comes out... 

Interesting the prominence of the christian beliefs, adds a slightly new angle to it.

Sounds a bit like the orange order in fact.. religous, right wing but does not want to be associated with the fash, excpet the street element then gets taken over by them.


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## invisibleplanet (Aug 27, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> this from Lionheart on 10 August 2009



Why are you directly quoting the entire screed of this BNP-fundamentalist christian-antisemitic-loon? A short quote and a broken link to his god-forsaken blog is more than enough.
http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/conservatives-ditch-lionheart


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## belboid (Aug 27, 2009)

any evidence of anyone from Casuals United being at West Ham the other night?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 27, 2009)

Please try to avoid posting (a) huge C&Ps - nobody reads them anyway (b) C&Ps with no link (c) quotes which don't look like quotes because it's confusing for people.


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## durruti02 (Aug 27, 2009)

Bajie said:


> So it all comes out...
> 
> Interesting the prominence of the christian beliefs, adds a slightly new angle to it.
> 
> Sounds a bit like the orange order in fact.. religous, right wing but does not want to be associated with the fash, excpet the street element then gets taken over by them.



no he is a loner mate though very influentail early days and no longer part by the sound of it .. check his blog ..


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## durruti02 (Aug 27, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Why are you directly quoting the entire screed of this BNP-fundamentalist christian-antisemitic-loon? A short quote and a broken link to his god-forsaken blog is more than enough.
> http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/conservatives-ditch-lionheart


 why er cos it gives a very clear update as regards the OP


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## durruti02 (Aug 27, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Please try to avoid posting (a) huge C&Ps - nobody reads them anyway (b) C&Ps with no link (c) quotes which don't look like quotes because it's confusing for people.


 cheers FM i do not usually do CnP but this explains a LOT about the OP ( have tidied)


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## durruti02 (Aug 27, 2009)

belboid said:


> any evidence of anyone from Casuals United being at West Ham the other night?



while there are 50 or so club based CUs on facebook ( villa and blues and afc telford all  over a hundred members .. showing midlands bias) neither west ham nor millwall appear to have one .. they may be secret though 

but yes that is almost definately what we are dealing with .. though NO reports of race attacks that night .. they are simply interested in each other and if the police get in the way


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## invisibleplanet (Aug 27, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> why er cos it gives a very clear update as regards the OP



What kind of update? 

Do you agree with everything 'Lionheart' says? If not, why not?

Why do you feel Lionheart's opinion is a) important b) relevant?


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## durruti02 (Aug 27, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> What kind of update?
> 
> Do you agree with everything 'Lionheart' says? If not, why not?
> 
> Why do you feel Lionheart's opinion is a) important b) relevant?



i agree with virtually nothing of what Lionheart says ..  .. in my world he is nuts frankly .. 

BUT his opinions are relevent TO THIS THREAD and have been influential in that scene .. if you don't get that maybe you do not understand what this thread is about


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## invisibleplanet (Aug 28, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i agree with virtually nothing of what Lionheart says ..  .. in my world he is nuts frankly ..
> 
> BUT his opinions are relevent TO THIS THREAD and have been influential in that scene .. if you don't get that maybe you do not understand what this thread is about





> One of its early organisers Chris Renton is a BNP supporter. Another, Paul Ray (aka Lionheart), who now says he has washed his hands of the EDL because of differences with Renton, admitted he was opposed to all Muslims practising their faith in Britain.
> 
> There are good reasons for minorities to worry, even though some from the EDL carried banners saying they were not racist. During the 4 July protest many participants chanted "Muslims out". As the UAF rightly says, the National Front organised demonstrations against black people in the 70s under the guise of "anti-mugging", and now it seems to be jumping on the "Islamic extremism" bandwagon for the same reason.
> 
> More protests are planned over the August bank holiday weekend and in Manchester city centre in early October. There are so many small but hardcore groups involved that I'd advise following Richard's blog for all that.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/12/birmingham-riots-extremism-media

Richard's blog: http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/

Why didn't you just link to Richard's blog, Durrutti? He's got the lowdown on 'Lionheart' et al.


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## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2009)

Stop C&Ping with no comment please.


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## durruti02 (Aug 28, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/12/birmingham-riots-extremism-media
> 
> Richard's blog: http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/
> 
> Why didn't you just link to Richard's blog, Durrutti? He's got the lowdown on 'Lionheart' et al.


 er i did already IP 

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9535828&postcount=227

"barthsnotesonreligion has been doing a bit of work on this

http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/

and note lol on the CU website that there is a picture of Chris Renton ( seen talking gibberish on a youtube video elsewhere) of the BNP under a anti BNP placard hmm undefined"
[/B]

from this it is clear 1) you have not read the thread and 2) have made the classic mistake of liberals in thinking that cos we are talking about nazis/rightists we support them 

do you write to Searchlight and have ago at them for publicising the BNP?


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## purplex (Aug 29, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> do you write to Searchlight and have ago at them for publicising the BNP?



[derail]Does anyone outside the activist community even read searchlight? As a PR exercise its all a bit fail really.[/derail]


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## durruti02 (Aug 29, 2009)

purplex said:


> [derail]Does anyone outside the activist community even read searchlight? As a PR exercise its all a bit fail really.[/derail]


 um not sure what their circulation is .. i think they have a fairly wide readership in the middle ranking union layer .. i suspect many branches have subs


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2009)




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## tbaldwin (Aug 29, 2009)

I knew she was a bit dodgy but shit what a fascist.


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## Stoat Boy (Aug 29, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> I knew she was a bit dodgy but shit what a fascist.



LOL.

I wonder what else she would like to ban if given half a chance.


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> I knew she was a bit dodgy but shit what a fascist.


 
Salma Yaqoob is following recent people power, when 12,500 emails were sent to the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable, to call for a ban on hooligans who were out to cause further trouble and division in Luton.


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## tbaldwin (Aug 29, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Salma Yaqoob is following recent people power, when 12,500 emails were sent to the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable, to call for a ban on hooligans who were out to cause further trouble and division in Luton.



12,500 and what is the population of Birmingham?

Strikes me as incredibly stupid to be calling for a ban. It just plays into the hands of the likes of the BNP who want to point to things like that and say ALL their opponents are against freedom of speech etc. She should be really ashamed of herself.


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> 12,500 and what is the population of Birmingham?
> 
> Strikes me as incredibly stupid to be calling for a ban. It just plays into the hands of the likes of the BNP who want to point to things like that and say ALL their opponents are against freedom of speech etc. She should be really ashamed of herself.


 
BNP leader Nick Griffin has distanced the BNP from such hooligan protests.


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## sonny61 (Aug 29, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Salma Yaqoob is following recent people power, when 12,500 emails were sent to the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable, to call for a ban on hooligans who were out to cause further trouble and division in Luton.



The UAF?


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## sonny61 (Aug 29, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> I knew she was a bit dodgy but shit what a fascist.



Could not agree more. A horrible woman, with an attitude of if your not with us your against us.


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> The UAF?


 
The UAF didn't have a visable presence twice in Luton, when 300 EDL activists turned over cars, smashed windows and attacked passers-by. Those prepared to defend their communities from such fascist violence were not going to allow that to happen in Birmingham.


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Could not agree more. A horrible woman, with an attitude of if your not with us your against us.


 
Your BNP misogyny is showing.


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## durruti02 (Aug 29, 2009)

MC5 said:


> BNP leader Nick Griffin has distanced the BNP from such hooligan protests.


 he he MC .. lol i didn't like all the anti BNP placards EDL were carrying


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## durruti02 (Aug 29, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Salma Yaqoob is following recent people power, when 12,500 emails were sent to the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable, to call for a ban on hooligans who were out to cause further trouble and division in Luton.


 listen to tory boy .. ban all those hoooooligans .. nasty working class scum


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> listen to tory boy .. ban all those hoooooligans .. nasty working class scum


 
Some of my best friends have been described as hooligans.


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## cantsin (Aug 29, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> listen to tory boy .. ban all those hoooooligans .. nasty working class scum



FFS, get a grip , they were a bunch of wankers end of, you're trying TOO HARD PAL, it's embarrassing....


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## audiotech (Aug 29, 2009)

cantsin said:


> FFS, get a grip , they were a bunch of wankers end of, you're trying TOO HARD PAL, it's embarrassing....


 
It's a romantic notion of the working class, usually from those who are not.


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## sonny61 (Aug 30, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Your BNP misogyny is showing.



Oh dear. So does that mean everyone who does not like Thatcher is guilty of ''misogyny''?
Typical SWP , screaming sexism, racism, at everyone who disagrees with them.
She still is a stuck up cow, with her head up her own arse.


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## sonny61 (Aug 30, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The UAF didn't have a visable presence twice in Luton, when 300 EDL activists turned over cars, smashed windows and attacked passers-by. Those prepared to defend their communities from such fascist violence were not going to allow that to happen in Birmingham.



Really, have we got photos, vids, of them doing this?
All this is just to cover up for the SWP, when they incite young Muslims and black youths, to attack young white men in Birmingham.


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

cantsin said:


> FFS, get a grip , they were a bunch of wankers end of, you're trying TOO HARD PAL, it's embarrassing....


 lol PAL ( sorry whf ur?)  .. so you agree with banning? u just fell right into the trap .. we KNOW they are a bunch of wankers .. and they are trying very hard to GET BANNED so they can make hay .. and idiots like yaqoob and MC5 fall for it over and over and over again .. muppets .. u one of that banning gang? (btw people have always took the rise out of MC when he talks like that about hoooligans and the terraces  )


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## audiotech (Aug 30, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Really, have we got photos, vids, of them doing this?
> All this is just to cover up for the SWP, when they incite young Muslims and black youths, to attack young white men in Birmingham.


 
Nobody incited anyone to attack young white men in Birmingham despite the provocation.

In Luton it was a different story:



> A spokeswoman for Bedfordshire Police said: "Nine people are in custody for a range of offences including criminal damage and assault."
> Several cars were damaged in the riot and an Asian-owned business had its windows smashed.
> source.


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## audiotech (Aug 30, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Oh dear. So does that mean everyone who does not like Thatcher is guilty of ''misogyny''...?
> ...She still is a stuck up cow, with her head up her own arse.


 
I thought that the call to "ditch the bitch" could have been worded different.


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## audiotech (Aug 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> lol PAL ( sorry whf ur?) .. so you agree with banning? u just fell right into the trap .. we KNOW they are a bunch of wankers .. and they are trying very hard to GET BANNED so they can make hay .. and idiots like yaqoob and MC5 fall for it over and over and over again .. muppets .. u one of that banning gang? (btw people have always took the rise out of MC when he talks like that about hoooligans and the terraces  )


 
Err, I never sent an email calling for a ban to either the Home Secretary, nor the Chief Constable, because I believe it will be banned anyway.


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## Blagsta (Aug 30, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Really, have we got photos, vids, of them doing this?
> All this is just to cover up for the SWP, when they incite young Muslims and black youths, to attack young white men in Birmingham.



knob


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Err, I never sent an email calling for a ban to either the Home Secretary, nor the Chief Constable, because I believe it will be banned anyway.


 you wrote *" Salma Yaqoob is following recent people power, when 12,500 emails were sent to the Home Secretary and the Chief Constable, to call for a ban on hooligans who were out to cause further trouble and division in Luton".*

1) how the fuck is it people power to petition the home secretary and Chief Constable? 

and 2) what sort of politics believes the Home Secretary and Cheif Constable are either neutral or on our side in terms of 'division' 

fgs MC it is THEY who cause the division NOT the bunch of muppets who is EDL/CU/etc ..


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## treelover (Aug 30, 2009)

@blagsta, 

Calling S61 a knob may make you feel better, but the fact remains that the constant haranguing of the crowd by the SWP with their megaphones did indeed 'psyche up' some of the protestors(though some of the asian gangs needed no prompting) I have seen this happen during the Iraq War Protests: 40 something men inciting 13 year olds to confront the police, some of them (the kids)were near nervous breakdown at the end of the day, the anarchists and some others were at the point of physically taking on the SWP to stop this 'abuse'


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## Blagsta (Aug 30, 2009)

treelover said:


> @blagsta,
> 
> Calling S61 a knob may make you feel better, but the fact remains that the constant haranguing of the crowd by the SWP with their megaphones did indeed 'psyche up' some of the protestors(though some of the asian gangs needed no prompting) I have seen this happen during the Iraq War Protests: 40 something men inciting 13 year olds to confront the police, some of them (the kids)were near nervous breakdown at the end of the day, the anarchists and some others were at the point of physically taking on the SWP to stop this 'abuse'



I don't doubt your account of events.  However, this is a far cry from "incite[ing] young Muslims and black youths, to attack young white men in Birmingham." which is what sonny61 said.  Which is why I called him a knob.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2009)

treelover said:


> @blagsta,
> 
> Calling S61 a knob may make you feel better, but the fact remains that the constant haranguing of the crowd by the SWP with their megaphones did indeed 'psyche up' some of the protestors(though some of the asian gangs needed no prompting) I have seen this happen during the Iraq War Protests: 40 something men inciting 13 year olds to confront the police, some of them (the kids)were near nervous breakdown at the end of the day, the anarchists and some others were at the point of physically taking on the SWP to stop this 'abuse'


i can't speak for what the swp may have said on the occasion to which you refer, but my experience over many years has been to switch off when i hear the swappies as they are more likely to bore to tears than inspire.


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## sonny61 (Aug 30, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I don't doubt your account of events.  However, this is a far cry from "incite[ing] young Muslims and black youths, to attack young white men in Birmingham." which is what sonny61 said.  Which is why I called him a knob.



Did we see any Asians or black youths getting a kicking of white youths?
That picture of the young lad in green being kicked about the floor by a mob of Muslim youth was sickening.
The SWP lied to the crowd when they told those there, that the ''BNP were in town''. This led to attacks on lone white males who were mistaken for the 'BNP'', when the fucking BNP were not even there!


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## Blagsta (Aug 30, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Did we see any Asians or black youths getting a kicking of white youths?
> That picture of the young lad in green being kicked about the floor by a mob of Muslim youth was sickening.
> The SWP lied to the crowd when they told those there, that the ''BNP were in town''. This led to attacks on lone white males who were mistaken for the 'BNP'', when the fucking BNP were not even there!



That's funny, 'cos a couple of my (white) mates were there.  They certainly didn't say anything about the SWP inciting racial attacks.

As I said - knob.


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## sonny61 (Aug 30, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> That's funny, 'cos a couple of my (white) mates were there.  They certainly didn't say anything about the SWP inciting racial attacks.
> 
> As I said - knob.



Because the SWP were lying when they said the BNP was in Birmingham that day, some innocent white males were attacked after being mistaken for the ''BNP''.
The mistaken victims could only be white, because I don't think anyone black or Asian would be mistaken for the 'BNP''.

The SWP are playing a dangerous game seeking confrontation with the tiny EDL. Those pictures of white males being kicked about the floor by young Muslims, does not exactly help race relations does it?

No matter the claim they were ''the BNP'', the only image people would have took in was whites being attacked by Muslims, most people will not be following the debate on the EDL.

That day in Brum saw a tiny number of EDL on the demo.
After those pictures, it is a worry that real football hooligans will turn up on the next one, the West Ham and Millwall type seen on TV this week.

All we need to see is pictures of football hooligans kicking Muslims about the floor, after encouragement from the SWP to confront the ''BNP''. 
Then start thinking about the riots of 2001 in Bradford, Burnley and Oldham.
The riots in Bradford starting after a non NF demo/march.

The BNP gain it's first council seats shortly after the riots, think about it.


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Did we see any Asians or black youths getting a kicking of white youths?
> That picture of the young lad in green being kicked about the floor by a mob of Muslim youth was sickening.
> The SWP lied to the crowd when they told those there, that the ''BNP were in town''. This led to attacks on lone white males who were mistaken for the 'BNP'', when the fucking BNP were not even there!



while i do accept that the respect/swp did wind up the youth ( and yes i hate that too) there WERE some bnp in town


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Because the SWP were lying when they said the BNP was in Birmingham that day, some innocent white males were attacked after being mistaken for the ''BNP''.
> The mistaken victims could only be white, because I don't think anyone black or Asian would be mistaken for the 'BNP''.
> 
> The SWP are playing a dangerous game seeking confrontation with the tiny EDL. Those pictures of white males being kicked about the floor by young Muslims, does not exactly help race relations does it?
> ...


 good post


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## durruti02 (Aug 30, 2009)

asians youth attack police today in luton

http://www.teletext.co.uk/regionaln...ddc074fee3eeb02/Riot+police+break+up+mob.aspx

http://www.dissexpress.co.uk/latest-east-anglia-news/Riot-police-break-up-mob.5601804.jp


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## kenny g (Aug 30, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> That's funny, 'cos a couple of my (white) mates were there.  They certainly didn't say anything about the SWP inciting racial attacks.
> 
> As I said - knob.



You aren't very imaginative with your insults are you? Takes one to know one and all that. Maybe you just aren't very imaginative.

edit: I stand corrected, your last few posts have this remarkable range of insults:



> you plank





> behaved like an arse





> Fucks sake, you lazy twat





> Are you really as simple minded as you make out?





> I really hope you don't have any kids.





> knob



The wit, the intelligence, the verve.


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## audiotech (Aug 30, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> while i do accept that the respect/swp did wind up the youth ( and yes i hate that too) there WERE some bnp in town


 
So sonny61 is the one lying.

The Asian Youth Movement, as was and black community organisations have never waited for the SWP, or anyone else for that matter, to defend their community against violence and abuse.

To quote Linton Kwesi Johnson:


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## Blagsta (Aug 30, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Because the SWP were lying when they said the BNP was in Birmingham that day, some innocent white males were attacked after being mistaken for the ''BNP''.
> The mistaken victims could only be white, because I don't think anyone black or Asian would be mistaken for the 'BNP''.
> 
> The SWP are playing a dangerous game seeking confrontation with the tiny EDL. Those pictures of white males being kicked about the floor by young Muslims, does not exactly help race relations does it?
> ...



You originally said "this is just to cover up for the SWP, when they incite young Muslims and black youths, to attack young white men in Birmingham."

Which just isn't true.  Which is why I'm calling you a knob.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 30, 2009)

kenny g said:


> You aren't very imaginative with your insults are you? Takes one to know one and all that. Maybe you just aren't very imaginative.
> 
> edit: I stand corrected, your last few posts have this remarkable range of insults:
> 
> ...



You seem to be on the wrong thread.

Oh, the wit, the intelligence, the verve


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## purplex (Aug 31, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Because the SWP were lying when they said the BNP was in Birmingham that day, some innocent white males were attacked after being mistaken for the ''BNP''.
> The mistaken victims could only be white, because I don't think anyone black or Asian would be mistaken for the 'BNP''.




This contradicts Lionhearts view that the edl demo had been hijacked by Renton and his nationalist goons. It seems the SWP were bang on.

The alternative is to let these  people march down the streets with their hateful racist message unchallenged. To give up the streets to these people. It would never happen. The EDL demo was always going to be met, the UAF counter-demo if anything provided an alternative focus.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> This contradicts Lionhearts view that the edl demo had been hijacked by Renton and his nationalist goons. It seems the SWP were bang on.
> 
> The alternative is to let these  people march down the streets with their hateful racist message unchallenged. To give up the streets to these people. It would never happen. The EDL demo was always going to be met, the UAF counter-demo if anything provided an alternative focus.


right. a focus rather than something which people listened to? because as far as i can see, the uaf are now in a rather difficult position. most of their backers, people like the labour party, can't really be seen to be associated with the sort of thing which happened in brum. but uaf are now associated with it in the minds of many people, which makes it more likely that future uaf events will result in violence as people who are up for a ruck gravitate to the uaf banner. as a result of the tensions from the brum event, i think uaf's days are certainly numbered - they can't provide a ruck on demand and they can't count on their establishment supporters to continue backing them if there's much more violence. plus if something more does kick off, perhaps in london, i wouldn't be surprised to see a few uafers up for incitement.


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## tbaldwin (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> This contradicts Lionhearts view that the edl demo had been hijacked by Renton and his nationalist goons. It seems the SWP were bang on.
> 
> The alternative is to let these  people march down the streets with their hateful racist message unchallenged. To give up the streets to these people. It would never happen. The EDL demo was always going to be met, the UAF counter-demo if anything provided an alternative focus.



What hateful racist message?


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

MC5 said:


> So sonny61 is the one lying.
> 
> The Asian Youth Movement, as was and black community organisations have never waited for the SWP, or anyone else for that matter, to defend their community against violence and abuse.
> 
> To quote Linton Kwesi Johnson:


 mc please ry to live in the 2000's 

sonny is not totally right and neither is blagsta .. speakers ( who were NOT going to do ANY fighting ) were winding up asian youth .. though yes many asian youth do not need any leadership .. but there were no asian or black organisations active .. and it was not strictly an attack on a community! ( as was attempted clearly in Luton) 

the EDL never moved from the town hall .. the casuals who were street fighting were of unknown political persusion ( probably bnp sympathisers) .. asian youth beat up a couple of them but also innocent bystanders including a drunk ( with the Jack) .. the casuals did not get anyone from what i understand ..


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> You originally said "this is just to cover up for the SWP, when they incite young Muslims and black youths, to attack young white men in Birmingham."
> 
> Which just isn't true.  Which is why I'm calling you a knob.


 yes this is right ..


----------



## purplex (Aug 31, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> What hateful racist message?



All muslims are extremists, is the EDL take on the world.


----------



## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> What hateful racist message?


 the one that said "black and white unite"?  these demos are not racist .. they are anti muslim basically, due to some progressive ideas ( elements of islam are backward compared to UK culture) but i think mianly due to a scapegoating mentality and a provocation from persons unknown to create divison


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> All muslims are extremists, is the EDL take on the world.


 but we have to be accurate .. this is NOT racism .. it may be hateful ( partially) wrong ( partially ) etc but it is NOT racism .. we have to get this right as it is one they turn on us


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## Harold Hill (Aug 31, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> i think uaf's days are certainly numbered - they can't provide a ruck on demand and they can't count on their establishment supporters to continue backing them if there's much more violence. plus if something more does kick off, perhaps in london, i wouldn't be surprised to see a few uafers up for incitement.



Good point.

I certainly think there is a very good chance they won't be able to organise if there is more evidence they can't control the consequences.

Whoever posted about were the EDL at West Ham/Millwall.  Absolutely zero chance of that and I wasn't even there.  Even they will know they can't exert any sort of influence over those two groups.

Didn't mention it before but I was out at the England game in Amsterdam.  From hearing people talking about this whilst you will find many that agree with the basic EDL ideaology, you won't find them at the demos due to either the fear of a six o clock knock or the belief the police are under instruction from above to treat whites with shorter shrift than the Muslims.  Or they can't be bothered.


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## purplex (Aug 31, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> the one that said "black and white unite"?  these demos are not racist .. they are anti muslim basically, due to some progressive ideas ( elements of islam are backward compared to UK culture) but i think mianly due to a scapegoating mentality and a provocation from persons unknown to create divison



"black and white unite" - a convenient flag to hide behind. It wasnt a unity demo it was an anti-muslim demo in a town with a large muslim population. 

Without the UAF taking the focus away from the EDL demo it could have got  very nasty.


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## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2009)

Taking the focus away? You mean magnifying it by 1000% surely?


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## tbaldwin (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> All muslims are extremists, is the EDL take on the world.



But that is not racist is it? And do you really think everybody in the edl thinks exactly the same about muslims and islam?


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## purplex (Aug 31, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but we have to be accurate .. this is NOT racism .. it may be hateful ( partially) wrong ( partially ) etc but it is NOT racism .. we have to get this right as it is one they turn on us




And a few years before they were just known as pakis. Does it make any difference, it is still aiming vicious divisive hatred at a section of british society, who have no more truck with terrorism than you or I.  

Theyve got you running round in circles with their brainz. Theyre just a bunch of racists out to cause division. Except this time they say muslims to avoid the tag of racism. Wolf in sheeps clothes.


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## tbaldwin (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> And a few years before they were just known as pakis. Does it make any difference, it is still aiming vicious divisive hatred at a section of british society, who have no more truck with terrorism than you or I.
> 
> Theyve got you running round in circles with their brainz. Theyre just a bunch of racists out to cause division. Except this time they say muslims to avoid the tag of racism. Wolf in sheeps clothes.



I think it makes a difference. 
 And i think its probably a bit lazy and counterproductive to act as though you think anybody who supports the EDL thinks exactly the same.
On one clip i saw one of the edl people is saying they would be happy to march alongside muslims who opposed muslim bombers. And i think he probably would have been as well but some probably wouldnt.

To lump people in as a bunch of racists seems a bit silly to me.


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## purplex (Aug 31, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Taking the focus away? You mean magnifying it by 1000% surely?



Im pretty sure the Brum lads would have confronted the EDL anyway, the anti-demo most likely prevented that.


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> And a few years before they were just known as pakis. Does it make any difference, it is still aiming vicious divisive hatred at a section of british society, who have no more truck with terrorism than you or I.
> 
> Theyve got you running round in circles with their brainz. Theyre just a bunch of racists out to cause division. Except this time they say muslims to avoid the tag of racism. Wolf in sheeps clothes.



 yes it does make a differrence in the same way that shouting NAZIS OFF OUR STREETS does not work .. simply calling them racist does not work as it is not true ( there are black and white involved ) and it ALLOWS them to maintain an air of respectability when they can deflect .. it fails to actually deal with what they are doing .. it simply does not work and you and me both want to stop those who are trying toio create divison .. 

what we need to do is undercut them by actually presenting an alternative to what they are saying ( which btw is pretty well universally popular in both white and black circles) that is democratic libertarian and opposes fascists bigots racists and dividers on both sides ( as UAF fails to do )


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## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> Im pretty sure the Brum lads would have confronted the EDL anyway, the anti-demo most likely prevented that.



Yes, they would have confonted them anyway, but the UAF presence far from stopping it (an odd claim given what actually happened) actually elevated it to another level and brought it to national attention, encouraging similar thinking people to get involved - _exactly as the edl wanted._ They needed something to boost their pathetic little demos which have been dying on their arse for 5 year now, and now all of sudden it's all over the national papers and the net  all the people who think along the same lines as they do now have a flag to rally around. So yes, well done UAF, you really kept the lid on that one.


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> "black and white unite" - a convenient flag to hide behind. It wasnt a unity demo it was an anti-muslim demo in a town with a large muslim population.
> 
> Without the UAF taking the focus away from the EDL demo it could have got  very nasty.



first bit right .. second bit wrong .. the anti demo could have been inclusive and anti fascist .. it was not .. it was winding up the kids


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> Im pretty sure the Brum lads would have confronted the EDL anyway, the anti-demo most likely prevented that.


 no i donlt think so at all ( and btw i was there .. ask revlon and slaac and they will say the same thing )


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, they would have confonted them anyway, but the UAF presence far from stopping it (an odd claim given what actually happened) actually elevated it to another level and brought it to national attention, encouraging similar thinking people to get involved - _exactly as the edl wanted._ They needed something to boost their pathetic little demos which have been dying on their arse for 5 year now, and now all of sudden it's all over the national papers and the net  all the people who think along the same lines as they do now have a flag to rally around. So yes, well done UAF, you really kept the lid on that one.


 yes ^^^


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## purplex (Aug 31, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> I think it makes a difference.
> And i think its probably a bit lazy and counterproductive to act as though you think anybody who supports the EDL thinks exactly the same.
> On one clip i saw one of the edl people is saying they would be happy to march alongside muslims who opposed muslim bombers. And i think he probably would have been as well but some probably wouldnt.
> 
> To lump people in as a bunch of racists seems a bit silly to me.



Im pretty sure most people muslim or otherwise oppose terrorists or those who glorify them, if this was the focus then I wouldnt have an issue with that. Except it isnt, that argument changed subtly to all muslims are terrorists, and that completely changes the focus and purpose of this group and their reasons for the demos. Its okay saying they wouldnt mind muslims marching with them but that becomes impossible when they themselves are being attacked.


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## treelover (Aug 31, 2009)

> asians youth attack police today in luton



in some areas there are indeed problems with 'asian' or somali gangs, often linked to religious intolerance, but of course most of the trouble is just with young men and their tetestorone, the problem is with the baby boom etc, there are going to be lots more of these gangs.


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## audiotech (Aug 31, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, they would have confonted them anyway, but the UAF presence far from stopping it (an odd claim given what actually happened) actually elevated it to another level and brought it to national attention, encouraging similar thinking people to get involved - _exactly as the edl wanted._ They needed something to boost their pathetic little demos which have been dying on their arse for 5 year now, and now all of sudden it's all over the national papers and the net all the people who think along the same lines as they do now have a flag to rally around. So yes, well done UAF, you really kept the lid on that one.


 
The flag was raised when the EDL, with balaclavas, ran amok in Luton some time previous. The UAF could have ignored the protest in Brum, but considering what had taken place before in Luton, that option wasn't available to them. No doubt some within UAF were hoping for a ban to keep a lid on events, but as we saw the authorities in Birmingham ignored calls for such a ban.


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## tbaldwin (Aug 31, 2009)

purplex said:


> Im pretty sure most people muslim or otherwise oppose terrorists or those who glorify them, if this was the focus then I wouldnt have an issue with that. *Except it isnt, that argument changed subtly to all muslims are terrorists, *and that completely changes the focus and purpose of this group and their reasons for the demos. Its okay saying they wouldnt mind muslims marching with them but that becomes impossible when they themselves are being attacked.



So where have the edl been saying all muslims are terrorists?


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## sonny61 (Aug 31, 2009)

Well done to the SWP and the UAF. The BNP website is showing a video taken last night of rioting Muslim youths in Luton attacking the police.
On the video(taken from the Muslim side), you can hear cries of ''get the BNP''

There was no BNP, no EDL, there never was any BNP.
Due to the shit stirring of the UAF, we have Muslim youths who think the BNP are roaming the streets of Luton attacking Muslims.

Echoes of Bradford 2001, when there was no NF march or demo.


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## Mr T (Aug 31, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> So where have the edl been saying all muslims are terrorists?



Not sure what the relationship is between 'Stop the Islamification of Europe' and EDL but quote from SIE in this week's Harrow Times:

"We don't believe in moderate Muslims.  We are saying to the moderate Muslims to kick those extremists out of the mosques.  The reason we are hardline against Muslims is that if people keep talking about moderate Muslims then they do nothing."

I guess you don't need to say "all muslims are terrorists" if you can just pick on any individual mosque, say "they're extremists and we're against them" and people's reponse is "oh well if its just the extremists you're against..."


link to harrow times weird flash page turning thing - article is p5


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## treelover (Aug 31, 2009)

Re:Harrow

Its all turning to shit isn't it, this will ratchet the tensions up a lot, only good thing is the summers over, no one likes protesting in rain, etc, except maybe the SWP


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 31, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Well done to the SWP and the UAF. The BNP website is showing a video taken last night of rioting Muslim youths in Luton attacking the police.
> On the video(taken from the Muslim side), you can hear cries of ''get the BNP''
> 
> There was no BNP, no EDL, there never was any BNP.
> ...


you can hear one person.

stop chatting shit.


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

Mr T said:


> Not sure what the relationship is between 'Stop the Islamification of Europe' and EDL but quote from SIE in this week's Harrow Times:
> 
> "We don't believe in moderate Muslims.  We are saying to the moderate Muslims to kick those extremists out of the mosques.  The reason we are hardline against Muslims is that if people keep talking about moderate Muslims then they do nothing."
> 
> ...


 definate connections between SIOE and EDL etc


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

and on bnp.website.blah

and see this " * The British National Party has formally proscribed the English Defence League and forbidden BNP members from joining or taking part in any of their activities. The EDL, for its part, has long distanced itself from the BNP, as shown in these photographs taken during one of its recent marches in Birmingham."

and as always check out the comments 

and they love this video http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...don....Police+Run+for+Cover&search_type=&aq=f


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 31, 2009)

yep, and chalk stopped talking to cheese this week....

actions speak louder than words mate.


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> yep, and chalk stopped talking to cheese this week....
> 
> actions speak louder than words mate.


 ? sorry but thats all too criptic for me mate


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## Paulie Tandoori (Aug 31, 2009)

the bnp website is bound to present a one-eyed view of events. sonny's comments do nothing more than repeat them. it's all well and good posting about what the "Emeny" are doing but it's much more challenging to come up with some realistic strategy for overcoming the fash.let alone allowing idjuts to pretend that the threat is far more advanced than is actually the case. imvho.


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## durruti02 (Aug 31, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> the bnp website is bound to present a one-eyed view of events. sonny's comments do nothing more than repeat them. it's all well and good posting about what the "Emeny" are doing but it's much more challenging to come up with some realistic strategy for overcoming the fash.let alone allowing idjuts to pretend that the threat is far more advanced than is actually the case. imvho.



paulie this thread IS about what the enemy are doing .. hence the title of it!  

there are other threads on what to do ( theres one at the moment ) which as you know i regularly contribute to  and also as u know i am doing stuff 

btw watch out for a new Hackney newspaper in the next few weeks  incidently with 2 articles about figting fascism

but yes i agree the bnp website always needs to be taken with more than a pinch of salt .. i find it very hard to believe they are not involved with al this shite


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## audiotech (Aug 31, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Echoes of Bradford 2001, when there was no NF march or demo.


 
They were there, shouting racial abuse, which kicked the whole thing off. Senior West Yorkshire police officers will confirm that if you give 'em a ring.


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## treelover (Aug 31, 2009)

> http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2009/08/luton-town-labour-local-home




article on the tensions in Luton, or not according to the NS journalist, rose coloured glasses?


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## durruti02 (Sep 1, 2009)

MC5 said:


> They were there, shouting racial abuse, which kicked the whole thing off. Senior West Yorkshire police officers will confirm that if you give 'em a ring.


 
sure got a few mates in the senior ranks of the police LOL 

my understanding is it was ONE fascist idiot a guy called Appleby who was the spark 

nb this from wiki 

"Tensions rose after the National Front attempted to organise a march in the city which was banned by Home Secretary David Blunkett under the Public Order Act 1986. The Anti Nazi League organised a rally in Centenary Square in the centre of the city, which was allowed to proceed. During the course of the rally, a rumour was spread by some of the marchers that National Front sympathisers were gathering at a pub in the centre of Bradford. A confrontation then occurred outside the pub in the city centre during which a white man was stabbed. According to the appeal court, this incident almost certainly triggered the riot. [10] . However, subsequent research amongst eye-witnesses contests this view with no single event being identifiable as a flashpoint [11]"


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## audiotech (Sep 1, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> sure got a few mates in the senior ranks of the police LOL


 
No mates, but someone I know was on speaking terms with a former Chief Constable.


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## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2009)

Oldham and Bradford gave the BNP a huge boosts in support for them as did Burnley. The obsession with UAF/ANLof finding any sort of irrelevant and marginalised group to justify the same tactics from thirty years ago just masks their failure to shift tactics against the very relevant and succesful BNP.


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## durruti02 (Sep 1, 2009)

MC5 said:


> No mates, but someone I know was on speaking terms with a former Chief Constable.


 well i'll leave that side of it to you and searchlight


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## durruti02 (Sep 1, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Oldham and Bradford gave the BNP a huge boosts in support for them as did Burnley. The obsession with UAF/ANL of finding any sort of irrelevant and marginalised group to justify the same tactics from thirty years ago just masks their failure to shift tactics against the very relevant and succesful BNP.


 yup


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## durruti02 (Sep 1, 2009)

btw the birimingham edl/cu demo still sounds like it is happenning .. is UAF mobilising?


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## audiotech (Sep 1, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> well i'll leave that side of it to you and searchlight


 
Stupid boy. A friend (spouse of Labour Councillor) had words when a community pub was threatened with demolition.


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## The39thStep (Sep 1, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Stupid boy. A friend (spouse of Labour Councillor) had words when a community pub was threatened with demolition.



Did you mean the Clerk of Works or the Chief Constable?


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## audiotech (Sep 1, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Oldham and Bradford gave the BNP a huge boosts in support for them as did Burnley. The obsession with UAF/ANLof finding any sort of irrelevant and marginalised group to justify the same tactics from thirty years ago just masks their failure to shift tactics against the very relevant and succesful BNP.


 


> Press reports along with the testimony of members of the local community show that the riots in Oldham occurred as the culmination of five weeks of racial abuse orchestrated by right-wing white extremists against the town’s ethnic minority community.


 
This, as well as the police response to this level of violence was the spark to the riots.

Again, as in Bradford, senior police officers highlighted the particular role of the National Front (NF) and British National Party (BNP) in stirring racial tensions in the town.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq6.html


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## audiotech (Sep 1, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Did you mean the Clerk of Works or the Chief Constable?


 
Definately the Chief Constable. The one who became a drugs tzar.


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## Harold Hill (Sep 2, 2009)

MC5 said:


> This, as well as the police response to this level of violence was the spark to the riots.
> 
> Again, as in Bradford, senior police officers highlighted the particular role of the National Front (NF) and British National Party (BNP) in stirring racial tensions in the town.
> 
> http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq6.html



Shouldn't that be 'senior police officers were ordered to highlight'


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## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 2, 2009)

_Luton Town Football Club has cancelled a home game on police advice because a protest march is planned for the town on the same day. The game against York City, due to take place at Kenilworth Road on 19 September, will be rearranged. 

The English Defence League, one of four groups banned from marching in Luton, is planning a protest on the same day. Bedfordshire Police said it advised the Hatters to cancel because the force cannot police both events. _ beeb


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## Mr T (Sep 2, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> _Luton Town Football Club has cancelled a home game on police advice because a protest march is planned for the town on the same day. The game against York City, due to take place at Kenilworth Road on 19 September, will be rearranged.
> 
> The English Defence League, one of four groups banned from marching in Luton, is planning a protest on the same day. Bedfordshire Police said it advised the Hatters to cancel because the force cannot police both events. _ beeb



Yep and Radio 1 newsbeat has been running the story 2nd or 3rd every hour with a quote from a muslim shopkeeper that "there's racism on both sides and i think there'll be a riot sooner or later"  and the longer bulletins have had a quote from some EDL spokesman about how they're only against extremists


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## Garcia Lorca (Sep 2, 2009)

Mr T said:


> Yep and Radio 1 newsbeat has been running the story 2nd or 3rd every hour with a quote from a muslim shopkeeper that "there's racism on both sides and i think there'll be a riot sooner or later"  and the longer bulletins have had a quote from some EDL spokesman about how they're only against extremists



way dit go the UAF! 

another success in bringing a non entity into the spotlight, added with the potential for excalation to rioting.

total reactionary, think, plan, review and look at what your action is going to achieve. Was it worth it? I dont believe the uaf go beyond the reactionary stage... which is bloody dangerous adn detrimental to any left movement or group.


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## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Definately the Chief Constable. The one who became a drugs tzar.



Halliwell .


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## treelover (Sep 2, 2009)

> Luton Town Football Club has cancelled a home game on police advice because a protest march is planned for the town on the same day. The game against York City, due to take place at Kenilworth Road on 19 September, will be rearranged




Surely, this will just give even more exposure to the EDL, etc, people will know hear of them, the EDl, when before they may have been oblivious.


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## treelover (Sep 2, 2009)

Btw, looking at the left press, ie, AWL, SWP, etc, such as it is, the exhortations to 'stop the EDl' just look weak, they don't seem to have a clue.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr T said:


> Yep and Radio 1 newsbeat has been running the story 2nd or 3rd every hour with a quote from a muslim shopkeeper that "there's racism on both sides and i think there'll be a riot sooner or later"  and the longer bulletins have had a quote from some EDL spokesman about how they're only against extremists


fivelive ran some shameful shorts on this issue this am, reportage at its worst and very provocative in a backhandedway i felt.


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## strung out (Sep 3, 2009)

thought about posting this before, but i saw some chap wearing an EDL t-shirt at the cardiff city vs bristol rovers match in cardiff the other day. seemed to be having a chat with a copper at the stadium, but didn't have too much of an idea what they were about...


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## The39thStep (Sep 3, 2009)

strung_out said:


> thought about posting this before, but i saw some chap wearing an EDL t-shirt at the cardiff city vs bristol rovers match in cardiff the other day. seemed to be having a chat with a copper at the stadium, but didn't have too much of an idea what they were about...



obviously not just connected with the bnp but also the police


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## durruti02 (Sep 3, 2009)

sorry for CNP but ... 

"Details of the English Defence League Demonstration in Birmingham on the 5th September 2009 

As many people are now aware, we at the the English Defence League are holding a demonstration in Birmingham on Saturday 5th September to oppose Islamic Extremists. We would like to state that anyone who wishes to cause trouble, or use this demonstration to voice any other issues other than Islamic Fundamentalists, Radical Islam and Sharia will be turned away. We are not a Fascist organisation, and urge anyone who know's of anybody who is intent on causing trouble on the day to contact us.

We have decided to post the details of this Demonstration for all to see in the interests of safety, and to cooperate with West Midlands Police to ensure that this event is conducted smoothly and nobody is hurt. We would like to appeal to the UAF, or any other counter demonstrations present on the day to listen to our message this time, and not to attack us as a "Fascist" organisation. We do not want a repeat of the confrontations seen in Birmingham on the 8th August this year. *We too are demonstrating against fascists also but these Fascists use the banner of Islam to hide behind thus deforming and defacing the Religion.*

We would also like people of all colours, faiths, all Citizens of England and the UK to join us, or come along in support in the hope that our Government will finaly be seen to be doing something to address the increasing concerns of the majority of us, and remove those who wish us harm from society.

Meeting Point and Demonstration Location 

We are due to meet in Broad Street in Birmingham City Centre before 12:30 on Saturday 5th September. The Police will direct us to various Public Houses in Broad Street where we will be asked to wait until further instruction. We strongly recommend that nobody arrives in the City before 11:00, and also we advise supporters not to travel alone. Anyone in large groups may be split and asked to wait in different Pubs. Please respect the Police on this. Anyone arriving after this time may be turned away by Police. ... We expect a large media prescence. We hope this will deter anyone who's intentions are to disrupt the demonstration, or use the demonstration to further causes not supported by the English Defence League. Also, this will provide safety for those wishing to attend the Demonstration and for members of the public.

At around 15:30 we will be escorted to Lancaster Circus. This will be the start of our Demonstration and the march is approximately 1 mile from Broad Street. We ask everybody to act in a peaceful mannor, and do not be sucked in by provocation and opposition from counter protestors, no matter how "off the mark" their comments may be.

We will have a 25min (approx) demonstration at Lancaster Circus and will then be escorted back to Broad Street.

We are confident that, due to the support and communications with West Midlands Police, this looks set to be a great day out for all concerned. We must add that any trouble caused by anyone demonstrating with the English Defence League will be arrested or removed, and could destroy the hard work that has been put in by the English Defence League's organisers and West Midlands Police and ruin the day for everyone. 

Therefore, we urge everybody attending who knows of anyone who is intent on ruining the day for everybody else be it for inciting violence, Religious hatred, Racial Hatred, anything whatsoever to contact us, or notify the Police officers present on the day. Even if you hear a conversation which causes you concern before, during or after the Demonstration, Tell Somebody so that this person, or people can be watched closely by the Police. It does not matter if you are wrong, but may stop any disruption if you are right.

Anybody who is thinking of attending, but feels that they cannot abide by the above, please do not come. The Police and their decisions must be respected on the day...

I look forward to a peaceful demonstration against Islamic Extremism!

Yours, Trevor.


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## Mr T (Sep 3, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> "Details of the English Defence League Demonstration in Birmingham on the 5th September 2009
> We are due to meet in Broad Street in Birmingham City Centre before 12:30 on Saturday 5th September. The Police will direct us to various Public Houses in Broad Street where we will be asked to wait until further instruction.
> 
> At around 15:30 we will be escorted to Lancaster Circus. This will be the start of our Demonstration and the march is approximately 1 mile from Broad Street. We ask everybody to act in a peaceful mannor, and do not be sucked in by provocation and opposition from counter protestors, no matter how "off the mark" their comments may be.
> ...



erm, the police are going to direct a load of far right activists into local pubs for three hours before an anti-muslim demonstration?! 

surely thats a wind-up?


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## treelover (Sep 3, 2009)

Their statement(the EDL) sounds unequivocal, but plenty of the people on the march, etc won't abide by it all, nor will some of the counter protesters, its all rather strange and confused, imo...


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## durruti02 (Sep 3, 2009)

Mr T said:


> erm, the police are going to direct a load of far right activists into local pubs for three hours before an anti-muslim demonstration?!
> 
> surely thats a wind-up?


 everything from EDL I find odd!


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## sonny61 (Sep 3, 2009)

I see the BNP have proscribed their members from having any contact or dealings with the ED. Threatening expulsion from the party any member who ignores this order. They have told organisers to report any members they believe have any involvement with the EDL.


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## Bajie (Sep 3, 2009)

I could see why Nick Griffin would do that, as he would not want another power base which he had no control over challenging him (as he is a bit national socialist in that way). Though I can not figure these EDL people out to be honest.


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## Paul Marsh (Sep 5, 2009)

Mr T said:


> erm, the police are going to direct a load of far right activists into local pubs for three hours before an anti-muslim demonstration?!
> 
> surely thats a wind-up?



I agree, it would be far more entertaining for the cops to escort Salma Yacquoob and the UAF counter demo to the pub for 3 hours, and then to annoy the EDL by _not _letting them have a drink....


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## mutley (Sep 5, 2009)

breaking news....

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/...objectid=24615373&siteid=97319-name_page.html

(no i'm not there so no eye witness stuff from me)


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## upsidedownwalrus (Sep 5, 2009)

As good an advert for widening the British gene pool as you're ever likely to see


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## durruti02 (Sep 5, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8239818.stm


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## durruti02 (Sep 5, 2009)

there should be an eye witness report soonish


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## lostexpectation (Sep 5, 2009)

New powers ahead of demonstration 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/8237073.stm

The new powers mean anyone protesting at The Bullring can be arrested. 

huh


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 5, 2009)

Great. So the boneheads set a precedent of abritrary banning for anyone else.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 5, 2009)

Perhaps the EDL should shout "This is not a riot" with their hands up. The police may beat them up, kill people and lie about it a few times but eventually they might get to demand the entire occasion is unpoliced. Gods teeth, but climate camp was weird.


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## durruti02 (Sep 5, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Great. So the boneheads set a precedent of abritrary banning for anyone else.


 and what was i saying a while back FM??


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 5, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and what was i saying a while back FM??



What - "maybe they have a point maybe they're not racist really cos muslims innit"? Or was it something else?


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## treelover (Sep 6, 2009)

> After an hour of angry skirmishes, police finally trapped around 60 EDL members in Bennetts pub in the city centre at 3.30pm, where they were held for more than an hour.
> 
> Meanwhile, a group of 60 Asian men gathered and tried to storm the premises, only being stopped by police using shields and protective headgear.
> 
> ...




anti-fascists? the BNP will love this, they win


----------



## mutley (Sep 6, 2009)

A few points (having heard from ppl who were present)

1) *The EDL did NOT do what they claimed they would *in the stuff durrutti posted above. They were going to go from broad street to lancaster circus, which would have kept them well away from ant-fascists and the main shopping areas. They marched half a mile into the centre of Brum from broad street. They are liers, and i'd say that applies to their professed anti-racism as well. Their press releases are attempts to throw dust in our eyes, simple as that.

2) Once they were in Brum centre, a quite small anti-fascist prescence (mainly SWP) mushroomed very quickly, and Muslim youth tried hard to get at the EDL from whatvere direction. *If there had been no Left prescence or mobilisation then local youth would still have opposed them!* I'd say that's the case whenever the EDL mobilise in multi-racial cities. No amount of hang-wringing from the likes of treelover will change that.

3) At the end  the police tried to split the left and the youth. They said that the 'older white people' could leave from a loose kettle, but not the asian youngsters. They were told where to go and eventually mixed groups were allowed to disperse. 

It's VITAL that the left stands with Muslim youth against these scum, for all sorts of reasons. Wider forces must be mobilised, but that basic principle stands.


----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

/\/\/\/\ spot on


----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

treelover said:


> anti-fascists? the BNP will love this, they win


If they had been white people who were all militant and angry you'd say they had a point. Because it's Asians you immediately see things through the eyes of the BNP.  indeed


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## Stoat Boy (Sep 6, 2009)

mutley said:


> It's VITAL that the left stands with Muslim youth against these scum, for all sorts of reasons. Wider forces must be mobilised, but that basic principle stands.




And in that post lays the problem for the left. Essentially you back non-white/non-christian against whites. Its how you are now percieved and how you seem to view the struggle.

Now I would be willing to wager that, on the whole, 'Muslim' youth are probably far more socially conservative than those whites you seem so intent on marginalising and would prove to be, on many many issues, far more in conflict with you than the majority of white working class people.

What saddens me, and I say this as somebody from the right, is that nobody on what is a majority left wing board seems to be expressing any sadness as to what was a case of two working class groups clashing. 

What happened to all that stuff about working class unity ? Or does defining yourselves as being 'anti' racist matter more now ?


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2009)

> If they had been white people who were all militant and angry you'd say they had a point. Because it's Asians you immediately see things through the eyes of the BNP.  indeed
> Reply With Quote




what a load of bollocks, as if many of those lads had read the mass tomes of the left, anti-fascism, etc, many of them just wanted to fight.Typical of the unreconstructed left to give them the role of brave class fighters, many seemed to be the mirror image of the hooligan EDL: green shirts vs brown shirts.


----------



## Balbi (Sep 6, 2009)

The BBC video paints the EDL as a load of beered up hoolies trying to get a ruck without a banning order from their favourite team 

The NF became the BNP, will all the old 'firms' suddenly become Anti-Fash? Imagine the looks on the faces of UAF if a load of wannabe Danny Dyer's turned up


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 6, 2009)

mutley said:


> It's VITAL that the left stands with Muslim youth against these scum


And ensure anti-fascism gets no support from the public?

You seriously think supporting a load of criminals running wild and attacking white bystanders is a _good_ idea to gain support?!


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 6, 2009)

mutley said:


> It's VITAL that the left stands with Muslim youth against these scum, for all sorts of reasons. Wider forces must be mobilised, but that basic principle stands.



What reasons are those?

The clashes I've heard about are as likely to have been between Muslim youths and white football fans just out to watch the England game.  Nobody here knows what would motivate these clashes and can only speculate - I suspect both sides would think the other is out to attack them so it's a case of hunt or be hunted.

The consensus seems to be that the UAF are unable to control Muslim youth so why would the EDL be able to wield any useful influence over hundreds of local white lads out?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> And in that post lays the problem for the left. Essentially you back non-white/non-christian against whites. Its how you are now percieved and how you seem to view the struggle.



It's not how I view the struggle. 

I don't view 'the struggle' from your dualist 'left/right, black/white, non-christian/christian'. 

We have a 21st century 'medieval crusade' style of rally which the EDL et al are attempting to popularise. 

The problem for 'the left' and any other people who may be left out of the description you use for those who oppose 'your right', is that your view is polarised, simplisitic, dualist.

EDL et al protest they are not racist, but basically, they're part of a 'white', fundamentalist, 'allegedly christian' movement which seeks to oppose non-Christian religions from practising their faith in the UK. 

Their oppostition extends not only to Islam, but also to Judaism, for by opposing Sharia courts in UK, they also oppose Beth Din, and in their opposition to Halal, they also oppose Kashrut (Kosher).


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

CyberRose said:


> And ensure anti-fascism gets no support from the public?
> 
> You seriously think supporting a load of criminals running wild and attacking white bystanders is a _good_ idea to gain support?!



What evidence is there that they attacked innocent bystanders? From all the se demos it seems the EDL have been the ones to lead the violence against others eg. Luton.

Harold Hill, the violence appears to have been sparked by the EDL demo. I find it quite hard to believe the EDL don't want violence and that it just happens spontaneously whenever they have a protest by beered up firms that appear to be carrying banners with EDL slogans.Theres not that many people in the firms or the EDL. You'd think if they didn't want violence the EDL could ask these firms to not attend their demos, and failing that point them out to police.


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## audiotech (Sep 6, 2009)

Birmingham Mail report and video.


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

The EDL protestors were clearly holding A4 'placards' that said 'NO 2 ISLAM', 'BAN MOSQUES', and 'NO SHARIA LAW'.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2009)

CyberRose said:


> You seriously think supporting a load of criminals running wild and attacking white bystanders is a _good_ idea to gain support?!


 
I keep seeing the charge of 'attacking bystanders', but I don't see much in the way of concrete evidence of this?

Were there 'bystanders' attacked yesterday that I don't know about?


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Harold Hill, the violence appears to have been sparked by the EDL demo. I find it quite hard to believe the EDL don't want violence and that it just happens spontaneously whenever they have a protest by beered up firms that appear to be carrying banners with EDL slogans.Theres not that many people in the firms or the EDL. You'd think if they didn't want violence the EDL could ask these firms to not attend their demos, and failing that point them out to police.



All speculation.  People on the EDL side are no doubt saying there were groups of Muslims tuning up with coshes or bull dogs intent on fighting white gangs whether they were on the march or not.

Why would the EDL try and incite their own side to violence in the UK's second city full of CCTV?  What do they have to gain by being more marginalised?  Nothing.

Again if the SWP element here are admitting they can't control the Muslim youth, why do you think the EDL can come in from outside and influence Midlands lads from local football firms or out watching the football who probably wouldn't need a second invitation once the chinese whispers go up that Muslims are on the streets looking for a row.  They can't.

And what do you suppose they say exactly which wouldn't result in a curt 'Fuck off, it's my city I'll go and drink where I like thanks'


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 6, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I keep seeing the charge of 'attacking bystanders', but I don't see much in the way of concrete evidence of this?
> 
> Were there 'bystanders' attacked yesterday that I don't know about?



You don't have evidence they were part of the march either though.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 6, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> All speculation.  People on the EDL side are no doubt saying there were groups of Muslims tuning up with coshes or bull dogs intent on fighting white gangs whether they were on the march or not.
> 
> Why would the EDL try and incite their own side to violence in the UK's second city full of CCTV?  What do they have to gain by being more marginalised?  Nothing.
> 
> ...



Good points.
The way the UAF have acted has been extremely illjudged.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> Again if the SWP element here are admitting they can't control the Muslim youth, why do you think the EDL can come in from outside and influence Midlands lads from local football firms or out watching the football who probably wouldn't need a second invitation once the chinese whispers go up that Muslims are on the streets looking for a row.  They can't.



Luton Muslims have already experienced violent attacks on Luton Muslims and Muslim-owned property, including the fire bombing of a well-respected Mosque. 

What does it mean to Brummie Muslims to have these Luton thugs mobilise in their city, spreading a message of intolerance and hatred with slogans such as 'NO 2 ISLAM' and BAN MOSQUES' ? 

Imagine if it were the Jewish community facing this level of threat*.


*Arguably, the Jewish community are facing the very same threat as the Muslim community, for within the thugs demands to ban Sharia is an unspoken demand to also ban Beth Din and I notice that the BNP 'community' are trying to persuade their membership to demand a ban on Kashrut/Halal in the UK.


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 6, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Luton Muslims have already experienced violent attacks on Luton Muslims and Muslim-owned property, including the fire bombing of a well-respected Mosque.
> 
> What does it mean to Brummie Muslims to have these Luton thugs mobilise in their city, spreading a message of intolerance and hatred with slogans such as 'NO 2 ISLAM' and BAN MOSQUES' ?
> 
> ...



Was this mosque actually firebombed?  I remember a report where the Bedfordshire police stated they were keepng an open mind but the only people I heard mention firebombing were The Daily Star.  You could debate Anjem Choudhary has done as much to endanger Muslims in Luton, he's the reason all this started.

It's easy to put 2 and 2 together and say it was racist arson without actual proof but then it's hypocritical to then turn around and say 'where's the evidence' when people are saying innocent white bystanders were attacked in Birmingham last month is it not?

I'm not surprised Brum Muslims come out to 'defend' themselves or their right to oppose those opposed to them or their way of life.  You have to accept though, that this leads to local Brummie lads/football firms drawing the same conclusions and acting on the same basis whether you agree with or not.  As far as they are concerned, the Muslim youths are baiting them by attacking groups of white lads last month, regardless of the reasons.  It's saying to them 'we control this city'.

And this isn't a defence of EDL who are as cack handed as the UAF in alienating potential support for their cause in the way they pursue it.  The only thing in their favour would be complete naivity in what they're getting themselves into.

Is the bit at the bottom just a way to try and shoehorn the BNP into this?


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> All speculation.  People on the EDL side are no doubt saying there were groups of Muslims tuning up with coshes or bull dogs intent on fighting white gangs whether they were on the march or not.
> 
> Why would the EDL try and incite their own side to violence in the UK's second city full of CCTV?  What do they have to gain by being more marginalised?  Nothing.
> 
> ...



Point the firms out to the police. As it is they're being seen as violent. As the BBC and newspaper report show. 

If it was Muslim gangs looking for fights with England fans which started this then there would be riots like this every England game. There aren't. I haven't seen any peaceful EDL demonstrators in the footage. Only beered up lads with anti Muslim banners. If the EDL have so many peaceful non white demonstrators how come there is zero footage of them when they are trying to show how multi cultural and friendly they are?

To anyone without an agenda its obvious what is happening. You are either a EDL apologist with an agenda or a completely naive fantasist.


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Good points.
> The way the UAF have acted has been extremely illjudged.



What do they do? 

Do nothing and allow EDL to run riot as they did in Luton? Resulting in national headlines: 'EDL attack muslim area and shops'

Or

Stage an opposition demo and get national headlines of: 'Rigth wing groups and anti fascists clash in Birmingham'.

I'd rather neither happened but thats not really an option given that EDL do want to provoke a fight and the filth seem to be unable or unwilling to do anyhting about it, and given a choice between the two, the second is preferable.

On a less well reported UAF action at Reading Pride: http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/berkshi...s/arts_and_culture/newsid_8240000/8240039.stm


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## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

Looks like everything is going to plan - the UAF are being the midwives to a truly terrifying monster that was unlikely to have been birthed previously.

How many more photos will it take of white men being set upon by gangs of asians circulating around before this completely spins out of control?


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Point the firms out to the police. As it is they're being seen as violent. As the BBC and newspaper report show.
> 
> If it was Muslim gangs looking for fights with England fans which started this then there would be riots like this every England game. There aren't. I haven't seen any peaceful EDL demonstrators in the footage. Only beered up lads with anti Muslim banners. If the EDL have so many peaceful non white demonstrators how come there is zero footage of them when they are trying to show how multi cultural and friendly they are?
> 
> To anyone without an agenda its obvious what is happening. You are either a EDL apologist with an agenda or a completely naive fantasist.



Sorry, where does the report show any violence?  Do/would the UAF point out Muslim aggressors to the police?

You seem to be claiming I stated that Muslim gangs 'started' this by trying to pick fights with England supporters.  I said no such thing.  But you have to accept that reacting with violence, whatever the circumstances, carries it's own consequences.  The Muslim youth acting the way will bring out more white youth to oppose them and for reasons that go beyond what either the EDL or UAF are campaigning against.

You'll have to define what a 'peaceful' protest is.  From the footage the EDL footage was crude and provocative but then tell me how shrieking 'Nazis off our streets' in such a cuddly friendly manner isn't the same just because you don't have few pints inside you.

I'll tell you what naive fantasism is.  It's trying to oppose something when you don't have the first fucking idea what you're opposing or the correct way to go about it.  A+ for the EDL and UAF.

I'm not naive or an apologist, I just understand your 'enemy' better than you do.  Because in 27 pages of this thread, most people here don't have the first clue.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> On a less well reported UAF action at Reading Pride: http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/berkshi...s/arts_and_culture/newsid_8240000/8240039.stm



A perfect examples of chasing after panto nazis rather than the real threat, the BNP. And this after the NF had cancelled their demo anyway.


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## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> Looks like everything is going to plan - the UAF are being the midwives to a truly terrifying monster that was unlikely to have been birthed previously.
> 
> How many more photos will it take of white men being set upon by gangs of asians circulating around before this completely spins out of control?



Get a fucking grip, UAF are largely immaterial in this, the asian attacks are provoked by the fact that on the same day as an EDL demo in Luton asians and asian shops were attacked, most probably by the EDL themselves or other thugs using them as cover. 

What should we do? (Im referring to the left/anti fascism in britain as a whole rather then UAF) 

Let the firms run riot through asian areas? Just so it doesnt get on the telly? We didn't do anthing in Luton and it still got national coverage. Jesus fucking wept.


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> Sorry, where does the report show any violence?  Do/would the UAF point out Muslim aggressors to the police?
> 
> You seem to be claiming I stated that Muslim gangs 'started' this by trying to pick fights with England supporters.  I said no such thing.  But you have to accept that reacting with violence, whatever the circumstances, carries it's own consequences.  The Muslim youth acting the way will bring out more white youth to oppose them and for reasons that go beyond what either the EDL or UAF are campaigning against.
> 
> ...



Go on then, if you have all this evidence and ammassed knowledge of what the EDL is and isn't, (apart from some claim that they make that they aren't racist, bit like the BNP do) give us some of it. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Get a fucking grip, UAF are largely immaterial in this,



Right, because they haven't stoked anything up at all.




grogwilton said:


> What should we do? (Im referring to the left/anti fascism in britain as a whole rather then UAF)



Why are you asking me? You obviously see nothing wrong with the current strategy.



grogwilton said:


> Let the firms run riot through asian areas? Just so it doesnt get on the telly? We didn't do anthing in Luton and it still got national coverage. Jesus fucking wept.



You've yet to answer Harold Hill's point: _"Again if the SWP element here are admitting they can't control the Muslim youth, why do you think the EDL can come in from outside and influence Midlands lads from local football firms or out watching the football who probably wouldn't need a second invitation once the chinese whispers go up that Muslims are on the streets looking for a row. They can't."_


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> A perfect examples of chasing after panto nazis rather than the real threat, the BNP. And this after the NF had cancelled their demo anyway.



1) It was only made clear they weren't attending the night before, by which time everything had already been organised. We weren't 'chasing after panto Nazis'. We weren't chasing after anything. We contacted other progressive and left groups in the area to boost the size of the Pride march to increase it's security in the event of the NF turning up, and we distributed material on the demo highlighting the homophobic nature of the NF and the BNP. What if they had turned up and attacked the demo? Sorry guys we didn't want to be accused of chasing panto nazis!

2) We gained a lot of good union and activist contacts for other local campaigns, the kind you and treelover are always making out we neglect because of anti-fascism, such as this campaign to reopen a good and thriving community pub that was shut down by a property developer this year: http://reopenthejollyanglers.co.uk/show-your-support/

Still I spose it's easier to just post on here why UAF are shit rather then actually suggesting what to do about rampaging racist firms who may or may not be EDL.


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Still I spose it's easier to just post on here why UAF are shit rather then actually suggesting what to do about rampaging racist firms who may or may not be EDL.



Question: Do you assume that all football firms are racist?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 6, 2009)

1) Turned up and attacked the demo!   What all 5 of them and mostly 50 years plus freaks. Ooh get the self defence squads to protect people from this .

2) Could do that anyway - shouldn't need this horrifying threat to do so.

yes, everyone but you does nothing.  You know what, the UBA and associated groups have been trying to kick this stuf for about 7-8 years now and have got precisely nowhere expect for embrassing 5 minute demos with 10 people there tops - they achieved nothing, zilch, nada. Now, thanks to the UAF idots and hotheads giving them the attention they've been begging for they've lept right into the national consciousness, and upped the racial tensions to the ultimate benefit of the BNP. So well done grog, slap yourself on the back, fight the good street fight. At least you can't be accused of actually thinking things through beyond the shouting short term can you? At least you 'do something' eh?


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

How have UAF ramped it up?

I don't think UAFs strategy will ever work in isolation. But in the short term its the least worst option. Better then allowing people to get beaten shit out of.

Assuming the EDL arent the ones out for violence. If EDL don't want violence (which I believe they do) they should either
-stop their demos
-get some decent stewarding
-cooperate with the filth to remove troublemakers. Groups such as Stop the War have been criticised enough by others here for apparent heavy stewarding and cooperation with the police to ensure their demos pass off without indicent.


----------



## spawnofsatan (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> 1) It was only made clear they weren't attending the night before, by which time everything had already been organised. We weren't 'chasing after panto Nazis'. We weren't chasing after anything. We contacted other progressive and left groups in the area to boost the size of the Pride march to increase it's security in the event of the NF turning up, and we distributed material on the demo highlighting the homophobic nature of the NF and the BNP. What if they had turned up and attacked the demo? Sorry guys we didn't want to be accused of chasing panto nazis!
> 
> 2) We gained a lot of good union and activist contacts for other local campaigns, the kind you and treelover are always making out we neglect because of anti-fascism, such as this campaign to reopen a good and thriving community pub that was shut down by a property developer this year: http://reopenthejollyanglers.co.uk/show-your-support/
> 
> Still I spose it's easier to just post on here why UAF are shit rather then actually suggesting what to do about rampaging racist firms who may or may not be EDL.



Would you have a demo and distribute material highlighting the homophobic crimes committed here,  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/24/gay-hate-tower-hamlets

Or are certain types of gay bashing off limits?


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> How have UAF ramped it up?







grogwilton said:


> -stop their demos



Really? Why's that?



grogwilton said:


> -get some decent stewarding



Because stewards will be able to stop it kicking off - like the UAF stewards stopped the asian gangs. Sure.




grogwilton said:


> -cooperate with the filth to remove troublemakers. Groups such as Stop the War have been criticised enough by others here for apparent heavy stewarding and cooperation with the police to ensure their demos pass off without indicent.



^ See above. I guess UAF has its work cut out to "remove troublemakers".


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

spawnofsatan said:


> Would you have a demo and distribute material highlighting the homophobic crimes committed here,  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/24/gay-hate-tower-hamlets
> 
> Or are certain types of gay bashing off limits?



You're forgetting that gay rights are one of the "shibboleths" that should apparently be discarded.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> All speculation.


You say that ^^ 



			
				Harold Hilll said:
			
		

> People on the EDL side are no doubt saying there were groups of Muslims tuning up with coshes or bull dogs intent on fighting white gangs whether they were on the march or not.


... but then indulge in wild speculation yourself about what the EDL 'side' are 'no doubt saying' as though you have the inside scoop on the EDL.


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> 1) Turned up and attacked the demo!   What all 5 of them and mostly 50 years plus freaks. Ooh get the self defence squads to protect people from this .
> 
> 2) Could do that anyway - shouldn't need this horrifying threat to do so.
> 
> yes, everyone but you does nothing.  You know what, the UBA and associated groups have been trying to kick this stuf for about 7-8 years now and have got precisely nowhere expect for embrassing 5 minute demos with 10 people there tops - they achieved nothing, zilch, nada. Now, thanks to the UAF idots and hotheads giving them the attention they've been begging for they've lept right into the national consciousness, and upped the racial tensions to the ultimate benefit of the BNP. So well done grog, slap yourself on the back, fight the good street fight. At least you can't be accused of actually thinking things through beyond the shouting short term can you? At least you 'do something' eh?



Im aware of the state of the NF nationally, the point is we didn't know what they could bring locally as this is the first time theyve attempted to do anything. We weren't complacent given that Reading has a history of nutty violent FR groups (see that bloke from Tilehurst who was arrested in East Anglia), and C18 used to be involved with the Reading FC firms. And yes, 10 determined nazis could have caused a lot of damage to a march that usually numbers around 50.

We are involved in local campaigns, and its not that easy to get get local unions contacts in a town like Reading that dooesn't have a historically massive trade unions tradition like Bristol/Sheffield/Birmingham. How do you get those contacts? Trade unions aren't that keen on giving out contact details of their stewards to complete strangers. 

The idea that UAF has goven them this publicity is lunacy. They may have been shit and pointless for years. But they weren't shit and pointless in Luton, without the help of UAF. They got the publicity in Luton, it was all over the bloody TV! And Luton was before UAF got involved at all, do I have to explain basic chronology now?


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

spawnofsatan said:


> Would you have a demo and distribute material highlighting the homophobic crimes committed here,  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/24/gay-hate-tower-hamlets
> 
> Or are certain types of gay bashing off limits?



No, why would I? The Bangladeshi homophobes in Tower Hamlets pose no threat to Readings gay community. The local BNP and NF do. Are we supposed to put out material condemning every homophobe in the universe or history ever?


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2009)

No, but you are very selective indeed, taking on the TH homophobes or the cunts who attacked the Jewish History Walk would take more courage, etc


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> Really? Why's that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If the UAF had a national demo they would steward it properly, (see the TUC stewards on the RWB demo actually siding with police to stop groups on the demo attacking the police who were blocking the route to the RWB site) but at short notice in reaction its not possible. 

If the EDL are organising their stuff, they pick the time and place (interestingly during an international break in the domestic leagues were firms of the top two flights of english football will be kicking their heals, and on the same day as an Enlgand friendly with lots of drunk football fans around. Interesting coincidence that for a peaceful non violent group), and should be able to organise stewarding or police escort accordingly.


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

treelover said:


> No, but you are very selective indeed, taking on the TH homophobes or the cunts who attacked the Jewish History Walk would take more courage, etc



I don't live in Tower Hamlets?


----------



## spawnofsatan (Sep 6, 2009)

You don't live in Birmingham or Luton either...


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> If the UAF had a national demo they would steward it properly, .



I don't care about a "national demo". We're talking about the demos that just happened where it all kicked off.

If you don't want to deal with some of these questions you could probably save everyone's time by just saying so.

Look at the comments under this article. These are the people you need to convince - what will you say to them?


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> Question: Do you assume that all football firms are racist?



No. Having been a football fan supporting clubs both here in the UK and when I lived in Germany, travelling home and away, I know that a football firms are not automatically racist, in fact there are many who are quite the opposite, USP, Ultras Babelsberg, Green Brigade (if you can call them firms) I believe blades' BBC also had no history of racism.


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> I don't care about a "national demo". We're talking about the demos that just happened where it all kicked off.
> 
> If you don't want to deal with some of these questions you could probably save everyone's time by just saying so.
> 
> Look at the comments under this article. These are the people you need to convince - what will you say to them?



Ive answered every question as best I can. UAF weren't able to stop the asian youths, im not denying that, how could they given the small numbers they could mobilise at such short notice? But they didn't create the situation. EDL did by having the demo during an international break, AND on the same day as an international friendly, which wasn't a great idea given their stated aim of it remaining non violent. 

What would have been the difference if UAF hadn't turned up? The only difference I can see is that the asian youths would have gone in anyway (after I believe being provoked by 'close mosques' placards from the EDL) and the headlines would have been tha it was purely a race riot and not a political riot, which would have been better for the BNP.


ETA: Please don't mistake me for someone who believes UAF are right on everything. I think a lot of what they have done is pointless, eg demonstrating outside the national ballet, the demos outside townhalls after the local election results etc. I just think in this point they made the best of a bad situation, and I dont think they can be blamed for the publicity the EDL have, the EDL and UBA got that for themselves in Luton.


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Ive answered every question as best I can.



No you haven't




grogwilton said:


> What would have been the difference if UAF hadn't turned up? The only difference I can see is that the asian youths would have gone in anyway (after I believe being provoked by closed mosques placards from the EDL) and the headlines would have been tha it was purely a race riot and not a political riot, which would have been better for the BNP.



Right, because UAF's screaming had nothing to do with this.


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> No you haven't



Which question haven't I answered? Please repeat it or point it out to me.



> Right, because UAF's screaming had nothing to do with this.



Just because you keep saying that their 'screaming' was what provoked the asians, doesn't mean that it was.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> Right, because UAF's screaming had nothing to do with this.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

*A leaflet handed out by the group deliberately blurred the line between "fundamentalist" and ordinary Muslims. It said, "Islam is a threat to us all. Don't let this oppressive religion go unchallenged. Time to make stand".*
http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/business-as-usual-0609091.html


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)




----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> Right, because UAF's screaming had nothing to do with this.


Yeah, the UAF are that powerful, and the Asians of Brum are so empty-headed they just do whatever the UAF say.

Never mind that the EDL turn up with a clearly anti-Islamic set of banners and chants and that they have form for attacking Asian areas of Luton.

Get a fucking grip


----------



## grogwilton (Sep 6, 2009)

Thanks for posting that up invisible planet, and thanks for the PM. Im off for dinner.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios, I suspect you are sticking the boot in because your own sectlet of deluded anarcho capitalists are an irrelevance.

No offense like, just my suspicion.


----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> Darios's pics with captions from some right wing blog


Oh, isn't it awful. I wish Asians were all meek and deferrent like they used to be then we'd have some pictures of them getting a kicking and we'd win the propaganda argument.

You massive twat


----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Darios, I suspect you are sticking the boot in because your own sectlet of deluded anarcho capitalists are an irrelevance.


Oh aye. Who's that then?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 6, 2009)

unless I'm mistaken Darios runs with anarcho capitalists from the Liescter area. 

Correct me if I'm wrong Darios?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 6, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> You don't have evidence they were part of the march either though.


 
I never claimed they were.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> unless I'm mistaken Darios runs with anarcho capitalists from the Liescter area.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong Darios?



An 'anarcho'-capitalist? 
*points and laughs*
There's no such thing as an 'anarcho'-capitalist! 

He's a right-'Libertarian'™, isn't he?

Read through this: http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/some-more-notes-on-the-uk-libertarian-right-then-and-now (scroll down to the bottom to the details on attendees of the 2006 Right Now! conference).


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 6, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> You say that ^^
> 
> ... but then indulge in wild speculation yourself about what the EDL 'side' are 'no doubt saying' as though you have the inside scoop on the EDL.



I have no problem stating it's wild speculation because thats what it is.  Point being everyone can play that game.  It doesn't make any of it the truth.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 6, 2009)

Of course there isn't but then neither are they libertarian in owt other than the american political usage of the word 

It's one of the labels they use despite it being a massive oxymoron


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Of course there isn't but then neither are they libertarian in owt other than the american political usage of the word


I knows you knows 



			
				Dot Communist said:
			
		

> It's one of the labels they use despite it being a massive oxymoron


innit


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> Go on then, if you have all this evidence and ammassed knowledge of what the EDL is and isn't, (apart from some claim that they make that they aren't racist, bit like the BNP do) give us some of it. I'd be happy to be proved wrong.



Not so much evidence as common sense.

There's no evidence needed to know that if a mob of Birmingham City or Villa or other casuals met up in the city the day of an EDL demo, a political group who've known one another all of six months will have no influence over a crew of lads that (some of whom) will have known one another for over 25 years.

There's no evidence needed to realise that the BNP have nothing to do with the EDL. Any BNP involvement would not have meant such a cack handed campaign so far by the EDF.

And if the EDF were so intent on planning violence, allowing themselves to be filmed by the nationwide media beforehand wouldn't strike me as the brightest thing to do.


It's interesting so many of the left I've seen blogging about this appear to be criticising the police treatment of them compared to the EDL.  Because when Mr Choudhary still walks the streets or the police are seen running from Palestinian protestors on you tube with no apparent subsequent convictions, football fans and probably the EDL and many other members of the public feel that 'they' wouldn't get treated the same way.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> What do they do?
> 
> Do nothing and allow EDL to run riot as they did in Luton? Resulting in national headlines: 'EDL attack muslim area and shops'
> 
> ...



As the edl have said they are 1 Not racist. 2 Not nazis.  Why treat them as if they are? Are the UAF just opposed to their views on opposing fundamental religion? or is it they just dont like the look of them?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> As the edl have said they are 1 Not racist. 2 Not nazis.  Why treat them as if they are? Are the UAF just opposed to their views on opposing fundamental religion? or is it they just dont like the look of them?


The EDL aren't being entirely honest about what they oppose. They are associating with fundamentalists themselves, so it's hard to believe you when you say they are opposed to fundamentalist religion. It doesn't come more fundamentalist or right wing than the Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority.

The English Defence League have been hanging out with a man known primarily for his alarmist hatemongering against gays and lesbians, Martin Mawyer of the Christian Action Network, a Christian Right outfit based in Virginia.


> Christian Action Network (CAN) was founded in 1990 by Martin Mawyer. He based the organization on biblical principles, values, traditions and truths…An activist in the religious community for over two decades, Mr. Mawyer began as a free-lance journalist for various Christian publications and then served as editor of Jerry Falwell’s “Moral Majority Report.”
> 
> …Since its inception in 1989, the Christian Action Network has strongly supported the right to life for the unborn; voluntary prayer in public schools and restoring religious liberties; has lobbied in favor of legislation that would defend traditional marriage; has worked to expose “Gay Days at Walt Disney World” to protect children and families; and has advocated an end to taxpayer-funded “hate art” through the National Endowment for the Arts.


English Defence League interviewed by veteran US anti-gay bigot
The video below shows head of the Christian Action Network "hanging out with some anonymous men in paramilitary-style balaclavas from the EDL -an organisation which has described itself as “the most ruthless street army in the country”, and which has not quite succeeded in showing it has no truck with the far-right?"
See EDL video here:


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 6, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> The EDL aren't being entirely honest about what they oppose. They are associating with fundamentalists themselves, so it's hard to believe you when you say they are opposed to fundamentalist religion. It doesn't come more fundamentalist or right wing than the Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority.



Political group not being entirely honest!!!!!!!!!! Oh no that can't be!!!!!!

How many people who support the edl do you think have even heard of Jerry Falwell?

It seems there is a concious effort by some people to push the likes of the edl into the arms of the BNP. Another totally shameful episode in the history of the spurious left.


----------



## Darios (Sep 6, 2009)

As usual most of you completely miss the point and instead go for a cheap and poorly executed attempt at character assassination.

Given that as soon as you find out someone is from a different political perspective you decide to write off what they have to say, I really have no idea how you expect to connect with people who have no sympathy with you or your politics at all (i.e. most people).

Those pictures are doing the rounds and most of the images from the recent confrontations are of that nature. While you sit in your ivory towers, many people are expressing sympathies with the EDL, SIOE etc. Whilst UAF it seems is doing everything possible to turn people off except from its own amen corner.

Your tedious holier-than-thou screed is guaranteed to send people into the waiting arms of EDL, BNP etc etc and you're going to get all those bad things you've been having wank fantasies about.

Good luck!


----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

Darios said:


> Your tedious holier-than-thou screed is guaranteed to send people into the waiting arms of EDL, BNP etc etc


Bye then. I'm sure you'll be very happy together


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 6, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Political group not being entirely honest!!!!!!!!!! Oh no that can't be!!!!!!
> 
> How many people who support the edl do you think have even heard of Jerry Falwell?



I'm sure very few EDL supporters know who Falwell was, or understand the history of American Protestant fundamentalism and its associated socio-political religious movements within the USA.




			
				Baldwin said:
			
		

> It seems there is a concious effort by some people to push the likes of the edl into the arms of the BNP.


 Bottom line, Baldwin, is that EDL is an outlet for a relatively small bunch of blokes who hate 'Pakis'. Right-wing football fans who either are, or who will probably end up in the NF.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were several NF within their ranks, and also not surprised if it were found that the NF were gaining new recruits from the EDL.



			
				Baldwin said:
			
		

> Another totally shameful episode in the history of the spurious left.


Baldwin, it's another totally shameless episode in the history of the ultra-right. 
That the left could have any power over people like that, or could ever reach (ideologically, morally) those people on the ultra-right would be too far-fetched to contemplate. How can you reach physical-force racists intent on confrontation ?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 6, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What - "maybe they have a point maybe they're not racist really cos muslims innit"? Or was it something else?


 ffs that is a differrent argument and one in which i am right ( do i REALLY have to explain the difference between reliogion and ethncity again??) .. this is not racism .. 

my point and one you did not understand then and apparrently now is hoe this appears to be some sort of set up to which the idiot left have blindly stumbled


----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> this appears to be some sort of set up to which the idiot left have blindly stumbled


I wish we were all as clever as you. I mean, your clarity in all this has been exemplary, as it always is 

*snigger*


----------



## Spion (Sep 6, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ffs that is a differrent argument and one in which i am right ( do i REALLY have to explain the difference between reliogion and ethncity again??) .. this is not racism ..


So you're really saying the EDL is not a racist organisation? You're really saying this isn't just a bunch of racist football hoolies that want a ruck with 'the pakis'?


----------



## FreddyB (Sep 6, 2009)

Spion said:


> So you're really saying the EDL is not a racist organisation? You're really saying this isn't just a bunch of racist football hoolies that want a ruck with 'the pakis'?



If that's what they are then the question is, what is it that makes them think that it's a good idea to go rucking with pakis in the centre of brum now and why do they seem to expect support?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 6, 2009)

...


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 6, 2009)

grogwilton said:


> .. UAF ....didn't create the situation. EDL did ...



EDL created the situation? interesting .. the EDL say Choudary and Hamza created the situation .. until the left deal with the FACT that Islamist fascists go unchallenged on the streets by the left ( in Luton conservative muslims have had a go) you leave a fucking wide gaping goal for the provocaters of the right


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 6, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I'm sure very few EDL supporters know who Falwell was, or understand the history of American Protestant fundamentalism and its associated socio-political religious movements within the USA.
> 
> Bottom line, Baldwin, is that EDL is an outlet for a relatively small bunch of blokes who hate 'Pakis'. Right-wing football fans who either are, or who will probably end up in the NF.
> 
> ...



^^^ this in a nutshell is why the liberal left are a barrier to change .. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU CAN CONVINCE PEOPLE JUST FUCK OFF!!! AND LEAVE IT TO PEOPLE WHO DO .. the right exist because the left are so fucking pathetic


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 6, 2009)

Spion said:


> So you're really saying the EDL is not a racist organisation? You're really saying this isn't just a bunch of racist football hoolies that want a ruck with 'the pakis'?


 yes and no .. many of them are clearly after a ruck with 'pakis' .. but EDL is also clearly NOT, on paper, a racist organisation .. you also don't understand the difference between religion and 'arce' .. wow i guess thats why your politics is soo marginal  .. 

listenned to this .. nazis clearly .. http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritofstgeorge#play/uploads/2/UIk-d98dVqs


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> The EDL aren't being entirely honest about what they oppose. They are associating with fundamentalists themselves, so it's hard to believe you when you say they are opposed to fundamentalist religion. It doesn't come more fundamentalist or right wing than the Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority.
> 
> The English Defence League have been hanging out with a man known primarily for his alarmist hatemongering against gays and lesbians, Martin Mawyer of the Christian Action Network, a Christian Right outfit based in Virginia.
> 
> ...




did you listen to this one? 

http://www.youtube.com/user/spiritofstgeorge#play/uploads/2/UIk-d98dVqs


the point that I and BA and HH have been trying to make for weeks is that while it is extremely clear there are some nasty elements in EDL who may well be controlling it, it is also clear there are elements who are simply anti islamist / anti jihadi etc which frankly is a position that 90% of english and probably 50% of muslims would support 

their last demo had stars of david, anti fascist statements and 'black and white unite' .. and BNP members in front of placards saying " we are not BNP" 

it is hard to know WHAT the EDL is based on their website and these demos .. did you 
 SO the point we have been making all along is this is too complex, this is differrent and this may be a classic provocation .. and the point of provocation is not to fall for them 

SO MAYBE our tactic here is NOT to call them NAZIS because they may WANT the left to call them nazis, the tactic here is maybe NOT to physically attack them, as this is maybe what they want .. and all the evidence is this IS how the far right are using the results of these demos 

it makes be almost physically sick to see wankers on here who are not young and asian celebrate young asians attacking these casuals as they are NOT the people who will suffer the consequences if this gets out of control .. the victims will not be the do nothing hard men KBJs of urban75 like spion but asian women and kids 

and lets be honest the liberal left have always regarded football fans and the unorganised w/c as scum .. idiots


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

btw lots of contradictory postings on line .. quite a few complaining about bad organisation and a few self congratulatory ones .. think this demo, which did not appear go as the 'leadership' planned, may cause too many problems for them too many arguments .. we'll see


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

respect cllr yaqoob supports bans .. brilliant .. she asks for people to work with the police to ban racism lol .. what a plank


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

FreddyB said:


> If that's what they are then the question is, what is it that makes them think that it's a good idea to go rucking with pakis in the centre of brum now and why do they seem to expect support?



9/11, 7/7, Islamophobia generally, finding its excuse/spark in the existence of tiny groups of Islamic nutters having visibility.

At the same time clashes between racists and groups of Asians in Brum has a long history. The late 70s saw clashes against racists spawn gangs like the Lynx  in Sparkbrook which still exist.


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> EDL created the situation? interesting .. the EDL say Choudary and Hamza created the situation .. until the left deal with the FACT that Islamist fascists go unchallenged on the streets by the left ( in Luton conservative muslims have had a go) you leave a fucking wide gaping goal for the provocaters of the right


What you say is true insofar as there is no strong left wing pole of attraction in society which clearly says, "We're against the bosses and we'll give racism no quarter". 

But at the same time if physical force racists appear on the streets they must be opposed


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> you also don't understand the difference between religion and 'arce'


Oh, I know an 'arce' when I see one 

Religion, 'race' - it makes no difference. The EDL isn't out to debate theology. They exist to intimidate and attack a particular kind of brown people


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> it makes be almost physically sick to see wankers on here who are not young and asian celebrate young asians attacking these casuals as they are NOT the people who will suffer the consequences if this gets out of control .. the victims will not be the do nothing hard men KBJs of urban75 like spion but asian women and kids


And you'd leave these beer swilling racists physically unmolested to intimidate and attack Asian people on the streets of Brum. If I were as hysterical as you I'd be 'almost physically sick' at your attitude. 

The presence of the left and Asian youth are there precisely to ensure these racist football hooligans are NOT FREE to shout their racist crap at people with complete impunity.

Thanks fuck you're irrelevant and someone is doing the right thing


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> And you'd leave these beer swilling racists physically unmolested to intimidate and attack Asian people on the streets of Brum. If I were as hysterical as you I'd be 'almost physically sick' at your attitude.
> 
> The presence of the left and Asian youth are there precisely to ensure these racist football hooligans are NOT FREE to shout their racist crap at people with complete impunity.
> 
> Thanks fuck you're irrelevant and someone is doing the right thing



Out of interest what did you make of their allegations about Muslim extremists being allowed to protest in Birmingham and make a big show of 'converting' an 11 year old white kid ? 

Should the 'left' be there to make sure that sort of thing does not happen as well ?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> EDL created the situation? interesting .. the EDL say Choudary and Hamza created the situation



Choudary and his small group (less than 20) gave the NF and EDL their cause célèbre to take to the streets of _Luton_.

At the time of Choudary's Luton offensive, he was indeed challeneged by local Muslims. A Muslim businessman strode over towards Choudary and jabbing his finger towards Choudary, shouted "You are giving Muslims a bad name!". 



			
				Telegraph said:
			
		

> The radicals argued with [the Muslim businessman] and tried to manhandle him away from the scene. For a moment the confrontation threatened to turn ugly until the businessman decided to walk away, still seething, but his point firmly made.


After Choudary's demo at the Poacher's homecoming, he tried demonstrating in Bury Park, where he met with this response:


> Many locals are unimpressed.
> "Don't listen to those lunatics," one Muslim man in his thirties muttered to me as he walked past the radicals' placard bearing the words "Iraq war casualties" and showing graphic photographs of children allegedly killed or maimed by British soldiers.
> "Those people do not represent the Muslim community," said another passer-by. "They are a bunch of troublemakers."


Choudary doesn't preach in a mosque, because no mosque would have him preach there, so he takes his message to the street and preaches openly on the street, where he encounters challenges from local Muslims. 


> At the town's central mosque, most of those who came to pray admitted that, like many others, they were against the war in Iraq, but added that the protest against the soldiers was wrong.
> Mohammed Sadiq, 58, who came to Luton as a 16-year-old, said: "It was outrageous and we were shocked by it. We totally condemn those extremists. They should respect the soldiers."
> Mohammed Bashir, chairman of the Khadmit advice centre for the Asian community, said: "They are nutters and criminals. What they did was disgraceful. There is no place in our society for people like that.
> "The Muslim community in Luton is hard-working and respectful. The danger is that this irresponsible tiny minority will give us all a bad name."


Choudary is given far too much air-time by the media BBC, CNN (the best coverage of Choudary would be ZERO).

Most British people (incl. our 2.8% Muslim minority) have only heard of Choudary and his views because of this airtime he has received. Choudary has around 20 supporters. 

When EDL marched in Luton, they used the much televised and reported Choudary as their cause célèbre. The EDL supporters were unable to make a distinction between Choudary and his tiny group, and the 30,000 Luton Muslims who do not support Choudary. Randomly, they physically attacked Luton Muslims and their property.  



durruti02 said:


> ... until the left deal with the FACT that Islamist fascists go unchallenged on the streets by the left ( in Luton conservative muslims have had a go) you leave a fucking wide gaping goal for the provocaters of the right


The only response against Choudary is for a team of permanent protesters to make it their full-time business to follow Choudary wherever he goes, surround his tiny band of miscreants and drown-out Choudary's message. This could be easily arranged from the local Mosque and volunteers could be drawn from the congregation there who are willing to follow Choudary wherever he goes, to ensure he is always challenged and can never be heard. This may well happen in the future in a more visible form (i.e. televised, reported in the local and national press) than the challenges Choudary currently receives every day from Luton's Muslims.

I'm not sure I agree with your premise that it is a failure of the left that has allowed the ultra-right to take to the streets and bash random Muslim passers-by and vandalise their businesses. The ultra-right have never needed permission to wreak racist havoc upon the innocent citizens of Britain before. I think you are wrongfully using your own cause célèbre (your view of the 'failures of the left') to blame 'the left' for the criminality of the ultra-right and the failure of the media to give as much airspace to publicising the opposition which Choudary receives daily from the Muslims of Luton.


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Out of interest what did you make of their allegations about Muslim extremists being allowed to protest in Birmingham and make a big show of 'converting' an 11 year old white kid ?
> 
> Should the 'left' be there to make sure that sort of thing does not happen as well ?


Should the left prevent religious people from doing religious things that they do entirely of their own free and that affect no-one but those concerned? Of course not.

Should the left do something about intentionally imflammatory Islamist protest at a soldiers' parade as happened in Luton earlier in the summer? Yes. At such an event in an ideal world an anti war movement would stand in front of and drown out Islamists' sloganeering with a message that pointed out Britain's brutal role in killing people in foreign countries but CRUCIALLY also saying, 'Bring the troops home'. (As well as appealing to the soldiers on a class basis - for better pay, for better accommodation, for rank and file soldiers to organise for better conditions etc). In fact, whether the Islamists are at those events is not the main point. A decent left/anti-war movement should be anyway


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> while it is extremely clear there are some nasty elements in EDL who may well be controlling it, it is also clear there are elements who are simply anti islamist / anti jihadi etc which frankly is a position that 90% of english and probably 50% of muslims would support


This, which I have underlined, is the kind of speculation which makes me incredibly suspicious of you and your often fact-free viewpoints and causes doubt as to where you are coming from both politically and socially.

Basically, it appears that a tiny part of you identifies with EDL and you have expended a great deal of effort and energy both publicising and apologising for them and their behaviour here on urban.

I think it's also fair to say that you then, as you do with many other issues which you discuss here on urban, go on to try to blame 'the left'. 

As far as your involvement in discussions of the EDL, you try to blame 'the left' for the behaviour of a bunch of physical force racists who want to fight Muslims on the streets. 

It's no wonder that you receive such short shrift from other urbanites.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Out of interest what did you make of their allegations about Muslim extremists being allowed to protest in Birmingham and make a big show of 'converting' an 11 year old white kid ?
> 
> Should the 'left' be there to make sure that sort of thing does not happen as well ?



How can 'the left' prevent Choudary from making a stunt of converting this kid or any other person? . 
AFAIK, this stunt-conversion (reversion) is unethical and not probably not valid.

Should 'the left' prevent conversions to Islam, Christianity, or Judaism? 

'The left' cannot prevent conversion to any religion. 

I would personally prefer it if proselytising in public places were prevented. This includes having to endure the shouts of fundamentalist christians telling town-centre shoppers that they're 'Sinners going to hell until they accept Jesus'.  

Manic street preachers can be prevented from aggressive proselytising through the town's council and police and no new law is needed to prevent public proselytisers. In Wakefield, we had a particular problem with a group of US-linked baptists who were verbally violent and highly offensive in their proselytising (and highly uneffective) from the steps of the cathedral (church-owned property). Since the incident outlined below, they appear to have been successfully prevented from proslytising after masses of complaints from people of all hues and creeds. They did (in 2006) appear after the precinct had closed on a Saturday, but after a quick word with the cops, they were moved on. AFAIK, if they appear, the police tend to move them on, but AFAIK, there's no law that I know of that can stop them unless a public disorder/breach of the peace actually occurs. 
However, when the police moved in to arrest the preachers for refusing to stop preaching in 1999 after a crowd of 100 local shoppers gathered and and heckled the preachers, the following happened:


> This approach was applied in the context of a ‘demonstration’ in Redmond-Bate v DPP [1999] Crim LR 998. The appellant was one of three women preaching from the steps of Wakefield Cathedral. A hostile crowd of about 100 people had gathered. A police officer, fearing that a breach of the peace would occur, asked the women to stop preaching. When they refused, the constable arrested them. They were charged with obstructing an officer in the execution of his duty, that is toprevent a breach of the peace. The Divisional Court held that the arrest was unlaw-ful. The women’s conduct had been lawful, and no threat to the peace came fromthem. The court pointed out that the right to freedom of speech, as protected by the ECHR, did not only apply to the inoffensive, but extended to the ‘irritating, the contentious, the heretical, the unwelcome and the provocative provided it didnot tend to provoke violence’. Accordingly, the constable was not acting in the course of his duty when he asked the women to stop preaching, and they were not obstructing him when they refused to do so.
> Cache of Freedom of assembly and public order (html version with incident highlighted)
> Freedom of assembly and public order: http://www.oup.com/uk/orc/bin/9780199231621/stone_ch07.pdf (PDF)


And you need to read the para before the quote above, and subsequent paras to see who, if anyone, has the power to take Choudary or the EDL/NF from the streets of Luton and Brum.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

edl statement 

"We had organised a peaceful Protest in Birmingham on the 5th September 2009, and had cooperated fully with West Midlands Police. Firstly, we would like to praise the West Midlands Police for the way in which they dealt with the trouble that occured in New Street and the surrounding area, we know West Midlands Police fought off many attemps by UAF and local Muslim MPs to have us banned, West Midlands Police did everything they could on the day to implement democracy in Birmingham. Although unfortunately it was to no avail, as the streets were over-run with gangs of Muslim Extremists.

After being held in busses for nearly 2 hours, some of us standing in a subway, we were told by West Midlands Police that we were not permitted to hold a demonstration as there was still a chance we could be attacked, and they didn't have the manpower to defend against any such attack. I hope that this is not a fact as if the police, despite drafting in back-up from various forces cannot, with their combined strength, protect a small number of peaceful protestors in Birmingham. It just goes to show how serious the problem with Radical Muslims is in Birmingham. These are sad times in democratic Britain when in Englands second largest city, people are not able to voice their concerns against terrorists and their supporters operating in our towns and cities.

We had notified West Midlands Police nearly a month ago that we were planning to hold a protest in Birmingham, as our last protest was disrupted by the Unite Against Fascism (UAF) group, a group who would not know what a fascist was if it stood on a podium in the Bullring screaming "Our Streets, Our Streets". 

We are still no further up the path of expressing our concerns regarding Islamic Fundamentalists in Birmingham. At our last two demos in Birminghman we have witnessed OUR police force (the police force we fully support) coming under violent attack by Militant Muslim Extremists. This is the last thing the EDL wanted, *so we will not be coming back to Birmingham in the near future *as we can see the Muslim violence escalating and don't want any more innocent people, or our police officers being the victims of their race crimes."


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

EDL statement on UAF etc 

"More UAF and Far Left Games Exposed (04/09/09) 

'Unite Against Fascism' (UAF) and its affiliated magazine 'Searchlight' between them have extensive experience in campaigning against anything which deviates from their far-left ideology. Their most effective, and widely-used tactic is to label any group that they disagree with: 'far right'. Ironically, these tactics make the group itself far more guilty of Stalin-esque Totalitarianism than any among their opposition. Deliberate use of misleading information about ones' ideological opponent, thus demonising and misrepresenting them, is the hallmark practice of fascist organisations.

So, inevitably, the UAF and Searchlight have deemed the EDL 'far-right'. Quite simply, the 'far-left' (UAF and Searchlight) are strongly aligned with Islam and anybody who criticises extreme Islam now not only has to contend with Islam itself, but with the 'far-left' who threaten the use of force and the limiting if liberties to ensure that their opponents do not have a voice. Ironic that a group who claim to be fighting 'fascism' are both using fascist tactics themselves and openly protecting Islamo-Fascism (which is just as real and dangerous as far-right extremism). ...etc etc etc" 

 see their website


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## tarannau (Sep 7, 2009)

Why are still acting as apologist and unofficial mouthpiece of this bunch of racist arseholes Durrutti, sorry this bunch of thinly masked racist arseholes playing shithead semantics. It beggars belief that you're giving them so much air, or believe that they're anything other than fuckheads.


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> *so we will not be coming back to Birmingham in the near future *


Bye bye


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> Deliberate use of misleading information about ones' ideological opponent, thus demonising and misrepresenting them, is the hallmark practice of fascist organisations.


Oh, the irony, and from those who seek to demonise Muslims


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Why are you still acting as apologist and unofficial mouthpiece of this bunch of racist arseholes Durrutti, sorry this bunch of thinly masked racist arseholes playing shithead semantics. It beggars belief that you're giving them so much air, or believe that they're anything other than fuckheads.



This ^^


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> And you'd leave these beer swilling racists physically unmolested to intimidate and attack Asian people on the streets of Brum. If I were as hysterical as you I'd be 'almost physically sick' at your attitude.
> 
> The presence of the left and Asian youth are there precisely to ensure these racist football hooligans are NOT FREE to shout their racist crap at people with complete impunity.
> 
> Thanks fuck you're irrelevant and someone is doing the right thing


 this is why you really are a wanker of the highest order spion

 .. at NO point have i said or suggested i would ever say or suggest 

 "..leave these beer swilling racists physically unmolested to intimidate and attack Asian people.." 

i have been an ANL activist thru the late 7ts and early 8ts, AFA through the 8ts etc etc. i have been a consistent anti racist and anti fascist both progaganda and 'militant', through my whole life ..  that you consistently try to smear people becuase they do not subscribe to your defeated and outmoded and frankly armchair politics is simply scum behaviour and why soo many of us actually do hate elements of the left 

what i have suggested below is that 

1) these issues are too complex for a simple no platform ( and btw IF you think they are where the fuck are you then?? were YOU in brum?? ) and that this may well be a BNP or state sponsered provocation and NOT the time to act 

2) i have argued above that class struggle activists should act physically to stop any fascist activity (from white fascists OR islamo fascists), so e.g in Luton in stopping any racists entering Bury Park .. 

3) and i would aslo say that asian youth need someone with brains to talk to them .. asians are in a minority of 10-1 in the UK .. winning a few scraps with some "beer swilling racists" could mean serious racial attacks in areas they or we can NOT police .. it is possible that we should also try to stop these kids getting drawn in .. as i said before it is not armchair hard men liek you who end up in nick for these situations but those kids


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## Sesquipedalian (Sep 7, 2009)

From todays Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/06/rightwing-rally-arrests-birmingham


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## mutley (Sep 7, 2009)

'asian youth need someone with brains to talk to them'

You really couldn't make it up....

Obviously the categories 'asian youth' and 'someone with brains' are mutually exclusive.


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

to Durrutti02,
What do you think 'NO TO ISLAM', 'BAN MOSQUES' are, if not 'a simple no-platform'. 
How is showing racism the red card 'a simple no-platform' ? 
Do you believe that EDL racism deserves a platform?


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## DotCommunist (Sep 7, 2009)

> We are simply protesting about the fact that if people come to our country, they should respect our laws," said Leisha Brookes, 42, an EDL protester. "If an English person went to an Arab country they would be expected to dress appropriately, and all we are asking is for them to do the same. We are protesting against sharia law and the acceptance of our government of Muslim extremists."




Liesha seems to be the unofficial spokesperson. Perhaps she is the only one capable of communicating in anything other than grunts


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Choudary and his small group (less than 20) gave the NF and EDL their cause célèbre to take to the streets of _Luton_.
> 
> At the time of Choudary's Luton offensive, he was indeed challeneged by local Muslims. A Muslim businessman strode over towards Choudary and jabbing his finger towards Choudary, shouted "You are giving Muslims a bad name!".
> 
> ...



choudary is not alone as you well know .. bakri hamza there are many .. and yes they are clearly a tiny minority but one who there is NO excuse for the lefts failure to confront .. i have seen these scum sell Holocaust denial DVDs on STWC marches pretty well unchallenged ( see my previous threads) 

Luton was NOT only the Poachers issue, there was the London bombings connection ( no you think people have not heard of them??), the girl who wanted to wear jilbab, the bedford suicide bomber imitator etc etc 

the muslims who drove out choudarys lot are extremely conservative BUT anti political .. good that they did it ( and i posted about it at the time) but not really a suggestion of a turn to the left

and yes i do blame the left .. their idiot managerial m/c authoritarian philosophy have ALLOWED the right wing to grow in a way that is unforgivebale


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

mutley said:


> 'asian youth need someone with brains to talk to them'
> 
> You really couldn't make it up....
> 
> Obviously the categories 'asian youth' and 'someone with brains' are mutually exclusive.



maybe to you .. not to me .. clearly it is you that needs brains ..

 i am suggesting UAF and yaqoob are the ones with no brains 

.. 'youth' have brains .. but brains that need guidance .. not winding up by armchair warriors and the parasites of the liberal left


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

First you say this: 





durruti02 said:


> .. at NO point have i said or suggested i would ever say or suggest "..leave these beer swilling racists physically unmolested to intimidate and attack Asian people.."



Then you say this: 





durruti02 said:


> these issues are too complex for a simple no platform . . .  and that this may well be a BNP or state sponsered provocation and NOT the time to act



You're all over the shop, pal. You need 'someone with brains' to talk to you



durruti02 said:


> your defeated and outmoded and frankly armchair politics is simply scum behaviour and why soo many of us actually do hate elements of the left


 Except that what I've argued all along is precisely what has happened, to the credit of those opposing the EDL in Brum. 



durruti02 said:


> as i said before it is not armchair hard men liek you who end up in nick for these situations but those kids


Oh, do fuck off. I've done my time in cuffs/cells thanks.



durruti02 said:


> asian youth need someone with brains to talk to them


Absolutely incredible, and from someone who constantly whinges about so-called 'vanguardism'


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Liesha seems to be the unofficial spokesperson. Perhaps she is the only one capable of communicating in anything other than grunts



she is one of them, aka  "lady leisha locaber" is her facebook tag if you want to see herfriends 

trevor kelway seems to be the main one ( see EDL vids from Brum on august5th) , Joel Titus for the youth and (token?) black face, not sure who the west country voice is but guess it might be one of the Renton brothers, of whom Chris is in the BNP ( though also someone called Lee Beaven who is bristol is an admin for edl facebook) , and Jeff Marsh aka joe cardiff is key but keeping quiet as he is being prosecuted ..

paul ray aka lionheart is no longer ( according to him) involved


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> First you say this:
> 
> Then you say this:
> 
> ...



spion you are nothing but an armchair warrior who is dangerously out of touch .. and yes i really do hate people like you who would gladly see a load of asian kids do time when you will not be doing so .. your parasitical attitude is why so few people want anything to do with your left ( spartarsitic league? workers power? some such wankers like that i'd guess)


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Why are still acting as apologist and unofficial mouthpiece of this bunch of racist arseholes Durrutti, sorry this bunch of thinly masked racist arseholes playing shithead semantics. It beggars belief that you're giving them so much air, or believe that they're anything other than fuckheads.



jesus christ!!!  .. i'm publicising them AS THEY ARE DANGEROUS!!!!!  DO YOU SAY THE SAME THING TO SEARCHLIGHT?????  that they shoudl NOT talk about C18 etc??? ffs it is laughable


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> This ^^



IP see above ffs


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> spion you are nothing but an armchair warrior who is dangerously out of touch


I'm out of touch? That's why the folk in Brum did exactly as I have argued for all along. Meanwhile you run around like a headless chicken, saying, 'Ooh, it's all so complex.' If the Brum left/Asian community had listened to you they'd have had a much stronger EDL operating on the streets with impunity, threatening and insulting people and gaining more morons to their cause.

This should be ABC stuff for the left and idiots like you run around shitting your pants. You're a disgrace. Thank god you're irrelevant


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## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2009)

mutley said:


> 'asian youth need someone with brains to talk to them'
> 
> You really couldn't make it up....
> 
> Obviously the categories 'asian youth' and 'someone with brains' are mutually exclusive.




I think the point he's making is this: Asian kids _can_ be manipulated by white middle class politicos too cowardly to do any fighting themselves. For instance there was very few white faces in the original Brum protest. Suspect it was the same Saturday. 

Bradford remains for now the classic example where the ANL wound up the locals to mobilise against an imaginary NF march (and in real terms an imaginary NF _organisation_ by that stage) and when the trouble kicked off the left fucked off. 
Result? 

Serious damage to race relations, serious boost for BNP, loads of Asian kids weighed off on conspiracy/riot/arson charges accompanied with hefty jail time. Not one lefty though. Coincidence?

Could the same happen again? Of course it could. The primary beneficaries? The BNP. Who in anticipation of such a fall out have proscribed the EDL already.


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> I think the point he's making is this: Asian kids _can_ be manipulated by white middle class politicos too cowardly to do any fighting themselves. For instance there was very few white faces in the original Brum protest. Suspect it was the same Saturday.
> 
> Bradford remains for now the classic example where the ANL wound up the locals to mobilise against an imaginary NF march (and in real terms an imaginary NF _organisation_ by that stage) and when the trouble kicked off the left fucked off.
> Result?
> ...


 in a nutshell


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> to Durrutti02,
> What do you think 'NO TO ISLAM', 'BAN MOSQUES' are, if not 'a simple no-platform'.
> How is showing racism the red card 'a simple no-platform' ?
> Do you believe that EDL racism deserves a platform?


  i think a left that associates and works with the police and home secretary to ban demos who are saying the above are deeply reactionary and are as dangerous as those who say those things .. particulalry when that left fail to act on islamists saying things far worse


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## mutley (Sep 7, 2009)

West Midlands SWP turned out plenty of people on Saturday. Can't speak for the rest of the left.

What is clear both from Saturdays events and from activity on sites like facebook is that NO MATTER WHAT THE LEFT SAYS OR DOES, Asian youth WILL oppose the EDL when they turn out.

On saturday, the role of the left was 

(a) the 'older white people' who the police allowed to leave *refused *to do so until ALL could leave. This provided solidarity and cover to the younger asian protestors.

(b) at the end of saturdays events, it was the tired old lefties who patiently explained to the asian youth that *they (the youth) really really needed to leave the area, or get prepared to be lifted*. The caricature of lefties pushing the asian youth into a kamikaze attack on the police or whatver is just soooo far from reality.

If anyone (anyone vaguely on the left that is) suggests that either of these roles was a dishonourable one, then I'll be intrigued to hear how they justify it.

Also, I haven't heard much from others on the socialist left. Belboid, Nigel Irritable, Fishergate what do you make of these events?


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## treelover (Sep 7, 2009)

On daves part, someone has come up with the term 'prolefear' to describe the comtempt much of the english middle class left has for the unemployed, the chav, the footie casual, the shell suits, the men with bull necks and bulldogs' and in ill fitting suits, 

I may start a blog on the theme..

PROLEFEAR


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> Bradford remains for now the classic example where the ANL wound up the locals to mobilise against an imaginary NF march (and in real terms an imaginary NF _organisation_ by that stage) and when the trouble kicked off the left fucked off.


What should 'the left' have done? Gone from Bradford city centre the 2 miles to Manningham to take part in the rioting? There's a wholoe load of reasons for why the rioting in Bradford took place and NF provocation and anti-fascist responses are only part of the picture. Add in racism, poverty, unemployment and heavy handed policing and you'll realise Bradford's Asian youth aren't some empty-headed automatons that can be set in motion by the words of a few lefties


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

mutley said:


> West Midlands SWP turned out plenty of people on Saturday. Can't speak for the rest of the left.
> 
> What is clear both from Saturdays events and from activity on sites like facebook is that NO MATTER WHAT THE LEFT SAYS OR DOES, Asian youth WILL oppose the EDL when they turn out.
> 
> ...



muttley teh a) and b) is good but you are wrong to suggest at the PREVIOUS event the kidds were NOT wound up and i suspect that through the weeks the ramblings of SY and her clear and public argument that EDL is fascist and shoudl be banned ramped up the tension 

look it is really simply .. no i'll do a poll ..


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

treelover said:


> On daves part, someone has come up with the term 'prolefear' to describe the comtempt much of the english middle class left has for the unemployed, the chav, the shell suits, the men with bull necks and bulldogs' and in ill fitting suits,
> 
> I may start a blog on the theme..
> 
> PROLEFEAR


I might start one on the so-called working class activists who have contempt for working class people who aren't white and are of Muslim culture. PAKIFEAR


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

mutley said:


> On saturday, the role of the left was
> 
> (a) the 'older white people' who the police allowed to leave *refused *to do so until ALL could leave. This provided solidarity and cover to the younger asian protestors.
> 
> (b) at the end of saturdays events, it was the tired old lefties who patiently explained to the asian youth that *they (the youth) really really needed to leave the area, or get prepared to be lifted*. The caricature of lefties pushing the asian youth into a kamikaze attack on the police or whatver is just soooo far from reality.


Worth repeating, for the numbskulls here


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 3) and i would also say that asian youth need someone with brains to talk to them ..


There is no such thing as 'asian youth'. There is no such thing as a single asian community. You really need to stop using this term. Please stop generalising and be specific as to which communities you are talking about. Obviously, how you communicate is a reflection of how you think about things. 


> asians are in a minority of 10-1 in the UK ..


10-1 would be 10%. Do you have accurate figures for that, or are  you inflating figures to make them appear less of a minority than they are. 


> winning a few scraps with some "beer swilling racists" could mean serious racial attacks in areas they or we can NOT police .. it is possible that we should also try to stop these kids getting drawn in .. as i said before it is not armchair hard men liek you who end up in nick for these situations but those kids


There are already serious racial attacks in the area. Did it escape you the violence against person and community and business property in Luton ? 
You want communities to do nothing to protect their families and businesses and community centres who are experiencing real physical threat. 

You said: 'asian youths need someone with brains to talk to them' 
That has actually been tried, back in May, when the Imam of the mosque which was firebombed back in May, managed to persuade 200 youths to go home and protect their families rather than take the fight onto the street. 

What about EDL 'youths'? Why do you miss out the old racists recruiting and grooming a new set of youths to become the next generation of beer-hooligan-fash-meisters ?  Where is your outrage? It has been non-existent so far, and placed the onus entirely on to the frightened Muslim communities in Luton and Birmingham.

You're incredibly one-sided in your appraisal of the situation.


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## mutley (Sep 7, 2009)

I can't speak for S Yaqoob, who was nowhere to be seen on Sat.

However, it has to be said, again and again, that when the likes of the EDL turn up, there will be a response. They turned up unnannounced in July (the weekend of Marxism so no swp about that day - no I'm not suggesting that was the reason edl chose that day). Lots of youngsters saw them, they got harassed but police protected them. 

Once they announced the plan to return in august, there was always gonna be a response. It could be one that the left could relate to and try and shape, or one that the left abandoned, and let the youngsters do what ever and get lifted. We chose the former, and frankly helped keep some youngsters OUT of the cells.

All this lefty agitators triggering off riots stuff is bullshit. Utter bollocks. One minute we're irrelevant and noone listens to us, the next we're masterminding riots. Can't win really.

Nigel, Belboid, Fishergate what say you? And others who I've forgotten..


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## treelover (Sep 7, 2009)

> I might start one on the so-called working class activists who have contempt for working class people who aren't white and are of Muslim culture. PAKIFEAR
> Reply With Quote



nah, just some of us see the wider picture, not some fantasy of asian youth as the new vanguard of struggle, you do live in the 70's don't you spion? time to retire? i have...


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

I feel ya, Mutley


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> What should 'the left' have done? Gone from Bradford city centre the 2 miles to Manningham to take part in the rioting? There's a wholoe load of reasons for why the rioting in Bradford took place and NF provocation and anti-fascist responses are only part of the picture. Add in racism, poverty, unemployment and heavy handed policing and you'll realise Bradford's Asian youth aren't some empty-headed automatons that can be set in motion by the words of a few lefties


 since when is manningham 2 miles from bradford cc? did none of the left LIVE in manningham?


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

treelover said:


> not some fantasy of asian youth as the new vanguard of struggle


the only fantasy here is the one in your head which tells you that me or anyone else here thinks that. It's quite sad really


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> .. You're incredibly one-sided in your appraisal of the situation.


 boy oh boy oh boy .. you do not get this do you?? ok unlike the KBJs who infest here i am deeply active in politics meet regularly with anti fascists form both Antifa and HNH sides .. i start a thread on EDL/CU ( me started it not anyone else) so we can discuss HOW we deal with this .. what it means, who runs it, how dangerous, what to do .. and yet because i do not agree with the UAF/HnH orthodoxy i get continually smeared and attacked for being a symapthiser? sorry but anyone who thinks that is basically thick


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> since when is manningham 2 miles from bradford cc? did none of the left LIVE in manningham?


Alright, it's 1 mile to 1.5 miles depending whether you mean going all the way over to Whetley Lane end of things or not. Well done for making such an incisive point, Durruuti. Give yourself a pat on the back


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i start a thread on EDL/CU ( me started it not anyone else) so we can discuss HOW we deal with this


how many weeks/months is it now that you still haven't come up with an answer?


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

... and making it up as you go along. 

My disagreements with your opinions and figure-inflations/misrepresentations have nothing to do with you not agreeing with UAF/HnH/Searchlight orthodoxy.

Since you are doing an enormous amount of smearing yourself to those who don't agree with you, I don't see how you can complain if people here are vehement in their response towards you.

You place the entire onus on the Muslim communities who are experiencing real threats to their persons, their families, their community centres, their businesses. 

You have not come up with any convincing alternative to how the UAF etc are handling thigns whatsoever!
You constantly repeat your incessant mantra that it is the left who are to blame.

I conclude that you have no answers, and additionally are not open to those who refuse to join you in your 'blame the left' dogma, regardless of whether they are actually on 'the left' or not.


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

mutley said:


> 1)I can't speak for S Yaqoob, who was nowhere to be seen on Sat.
> 
> 2) However, it has to be said, again and again, that when the likes of the EDL turn up, there will be a response. They turned up unnannounced in July (the weekend of Marxism so no swp about that day - no I'm not suggesting that was the reason edl chose that day). Lots of youngsters saw them, they got harassed but police protected them.
> 
> ...



1) ok so that is what i am saying 

2) what do you mean the likes of EDL .. have you not been following? 

3) yes response but wring response

4) just as bnp some fasc are good at a wind up so can the swp be .. doesn't mean people will listen to you in other situations .. one of the BIG laughs the far right have about you is that the islamists will do you first if the get anywhere ( which i don't believe they will btw)


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 3) yes response but wring response


So, what was the right response?


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> ... and making it up as you go along.
> 
> My disagreements with your opinions and figure-inflations/misrepresentations have nothing to do with you not agreeing with UAF/HnH/Searchlight orthodoxy.
> Since you are doing an enormous amount of smearing yourself to those who don't agree with you, I don't see how you can complain if people here are vehement in their response towards you.
> ...



i have stated in 728 what i think people should do BUT the key thing is that we should not have been in this situation which yes has been called by large elements of the left absenting themselves from local communities and their classist snobbery to large sections of the white w/c


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

Still playing the chicken/egg blame game, durrutti?


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> So, what was the right response?



still not sure but 

1) not talking shit about the EDL 

2) not winding up asian kids 

3) stating clearly that we are entirely anti fasist and oppose both islamist and british fascism 

4) making it entirely clear to EDL and any hangers on that any attempt to enter any muslim area or attack any random muslims or their property would be met with forceably 

but as i said this whole things just illustrates what people like me BA, treelover, joe reilly and many others have been banging on about that if you do not have the preperation these last minute demos are pointless and often counterproductive


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Still playing the chicken/egg blame game, durrutti?


  what do you do IP .. pm me if you like and i'll tell you what i do .. ok?


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i think a left that associates and works with the police and home secretary to ban demos who are saying the above are deeply reactionary and are as dangerous as those who say those things .. particulalry when that left fail to act on islamists saying things far worse



So basicially, everything is the fault of durrutti02's mythic 'left' again! 
They're wrong for associating with the police and wrong for remaining within the bounds of the law. 

But if the 'asian youths' take to the streets, like the 43 group, who were very effective in dealing with the murderous, racist fascists who were persecuting the Jewish community in Hackney after WWI, according to durrutti02, they are 'in need of someone with brains to talk to them'. 

Is that the kind of action you want to see, durrutti02? A pro-active Left/Muslim '09 group who will take on the racist scum and speak to them in the only language they understand? Obviously not, because when Spion mentioned that was also part of the response which is outside the control of your 'mythic left', you accused Spion of wanting to see Muslim youth in the nick.


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## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but as i said this whole things just illustrates what people like me BA, treelover, joe reilly and many others have been banging on about that if you do not have the preperation these last minute demos are pointless and often counterproductive


That's like being asked for directions and saying, 'Oh you don't want to start from here'.

Yes, in an ideal world there'd be a massive left wing workers movement and things like this EDL business would never arise as all its potential recruits would not consider antagonising fellow working class people who happened to be muslim.

But we're not in an ideal world and these things happen and there has to be a response, and there will be by those most directly threatened by racists, and should be by the left - at the level of a simple response to a threat and as a way of geting those drawn in into more sustained w/c activism. 

Anyway, I'm not sure the ideal world is ever very likely to exist. You'd never have thought a country with such a strong workers' movement as post-WW1 Germany would have to deal with racism/fascism, but it did because 'the left' is never going to be that hegemonic, until it has won


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## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> So basicially, everything is the fault of durrutti02's mythic 'left' again!
> They're wrong for associating with the police and wrong for remaining within the bounds of the law.
> 
> But if the 'asian youths' take to the streets, like the 43 group, who were very effective in dealing with the murderous, racist fascists who were persecuting the Jewish community in Hackney after WWI, according to durrutti02, they are 'in need of someone with brains to talk to them'.
> ...



lol the 43 group again .. if only it were like the 1940s again  

IP no you know what allowed the UM to be as minutely successful as it was for a few years post war?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> That's like being asked for directions and saying, 'Oh you don't want to start from here'.
> 
> Yes, in an ideal world there'd be a massive left wing workers movement and things like this EDL business would never arise as all its potential recruits would not consider antagonising fellow working class people who happened to be muslim.
> 
> ...



so you want to build a movement on sand as before? like has been done over and over and what has brought us to this place?? lol


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> so you want to build a movement on sand as before? like has been done over and over and what has brought us to this place?? lol


I don't really know what you're attempting to say, but I'm sure I smell a straw man. 'lol'


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> I don't really know what you're attempting to say, but I'm sure I smell a straw man. 'lol'


 spion what do you do? anything?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 7, 2009)

durutti from what I've seen of your posts I support many of the local campaigning methods that you would.

But fuck me, for someone who says the far left is irrelevant to the working class, you spend enough time banging on about them. Just leave it alone and do something more useful like working out why pro-working class strategies aren't working at the moment.

By the way the EDF are an obvious bunch of racist fuckwits who haven't got a clue. Most people I know, across a few different teams, say the same thing. They're seen as a joke. If most football fans can see that they are racist idiots posing at not being racist then I'm surprised you can't.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> What should 'the left' have done? Gone from Bradford city centre the 2 miles to Manningham to take part in the rioting? There's a wholoe load of reasons for why the rioting in Bradford took place and NF provocation and anti-fascist responses are only part of the picture. Add in racism, poverty, unemployment and heavy handed policing and you'll realise Bradford's Asian youth aren't some empty-headed automatons that can be set in motion by the words of a few lefties




The ANL set the scene. Julie Waterson their national organiser was

televised winding things up. But there was _no NF march_ planned. So 

could not have been any NF provocation. What you had instead was was 

many hundreds of Asian youth brought onto the streets, on the prowl - but - 

no enemy. 

A potentially lethal combination particularly for the customers of the local 

trades and labour club they later tried to burn down.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> since when is manningham 2 miles from bradford cc? did none of the left LIVE in manningham?



really durruti, im from bradford and lived in manningham for a while, its hardly a stronghold of the left

what is it is an incredibly deprived are with little more then slum housing in parts, as well as being the local red light area and the frontline for the small caribbean community, - the police at least were racist to the core, unemployment is rampant and riots happen there as regular as colckwork with no provocation from the left needed

and it could be argued that its about 1 1/2 - 2 miles if you take the city centre as where the town hall is


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Liesha seems to be the unofficial spokesperson. Perhaps she is the only one capable of communicating in anything other than grunts



I'm led to believe this is her?


----------



## 1927 (Sep 7, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> That'll be the link from Jeff Marsh the Cardiff City Soul Crew author (originally from Barry). Didn't realise he had these kind of leanings though.



To clarify he is from Barry Island, which may seem like splitting hairs, unless you come form Barry and understand these things!


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> spion what do you do? anything?



here we go, lost the argument so now some willy waving.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 7, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I'm led to believe this is her?



christ thats a fucking horrible page


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2009)

mutley said:


> I can't speak for S Yaqoob, who was nowhere to be seen on Sat.
> 
> However, it has to be said, again and again, that when the likes of the EDL turn up, there will be a response. They turned up unnannounced in July (the weekend of Marxism so no swp about that day - no I'm not suggesting that was the reason edl chose that day). Lots of youngsters saw them, they got harassed but police protected them.
> 
> ...




First of all there not real riots. Lots of kids running around little damage. 

Second with access to the media as the UAF 

has, and needing the ear of the media which is what the EDL want, the 

relationship is symbiotic, and the resulting confrontation,(even without the 

SWP moblising in the local colleges) materialises effortlessly.  

The UAF cannot lay a hand on the BNP so to justify their existence they 

search for a surrogate and find it in the EDL. Also by pretending that the EDL 

is the BNP once removed it helps justify the absurd SWP prediction that a 

return to the streets by the BNP is imminent. Next up we will have in the 

predictable 'defence fund', which should tie in at least some of those nicked 

for the time being at least. Everyone's a winner - so far. Might not be so 

lucky next time though.


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> christ thats a fucking horrible page


check the album page  http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/ind...viewPicture&friendID=264391630&albumId=721746


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> The UAF cannot lay a hand on the BNP so to justify their existence they
> 
> search for a surrogate and find it in the EDL.


So, the EDL should just have been allowed to do what they wanted? Am I reading you right?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> But if the 'asian youths' take to the streets, like the 43 group, who were very effective in dealing with the murderous, racist fascists who were persecuting the Jewish community in Hackney after WWI, according to durrutti02, they are 'in need of someone with brains to talk to them'.




First of all it was after World War 11. 

Secondly the working class was heavily politicised at the time. Everyone 

knew what fascism was and there was likely to be little or any confusion.

Third, the 43 group was essentially a para military with 

300 former commandos at its centre. Professionals in other words. Events were 

planned meticiously. Everyone knew what they were doing and why. The 

contrast with today could not be starker.


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

What's wrong with your line spacing?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> So, the EDL should just have been allowed to do what they wanted? Am I reading you right?




First of all you need to actually take some time to find out what it is they 

'_wanted_ to do'. Categorising them as BNP/NAZI is both cynical and lazy. 

Though it clearly suits the agenda of some. Next you need to work what it is 

you want to do on the day- _and_ - how it will be percieved. What I'm 

saying here is

that so far the real political beneficaries are the BNP.  Oh, sure the SWP 

might get a couple of dozen recruits but in wider propaganda terms it is 

potentially disastrous. 

One of the interesting aspects of these events is how confrontational the 

UAF appears to be, 80 arrests and so forth, when normally, if faced by real 

fascists and when it is actual SWP members involved, (hunkering down in some cul-de-sac 

preferably) they are extremely judicious of their safety. Cannon fodder 

anyone?


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> First of all you need to actually take some time to find out what it is they
> 
> '_wanted_ to do'. Categorising them as BNP/NAZI is both cynical and lazy.


 I haven't done that. Straw man 



Joe Reilly said:


> Next you need to work what it is
> 
> you want to do on the day- _and_ - how it will be percieved. What I'm
> 
> ...


My aims in such things are:
1. Preventing physical force racists from intimidating and attacking people.

2. Preventing them from operating at will so that potential recruits are made to think they'll have to run the gauntlet to join them.

And lastly, getting my message about w/c and community organisation across.

You seem to start from the point of view of acting as some kind of PR person for how these events will be seen by the mainstream, which I think is a pointless pursuit. And starting from the point of view of an obsession with what the SWP will do is sectarian and likely to lead you to do nothing.

So, if I read you right you _are _saying the EDL should have just been left to do what they wanted? Can you confirm yes or no on that?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> preferably) they are extremely judicious of their safety. Cannon fodder
> 
> anyone?



Most of us, even you Joe, I expect are extremely judicious of their own safety.

Weymen Bennett reportedly attacked, two long standing members car in Yorkshire firebombed, telephone threats, redwatch. That's just recently, I could go on about the seventies, but I won't.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> First of all it was after World War 11.
> 
> Secondly the working class was heavily politicised at the time. Everyone
> 
> ...



Asian youth will join organisations, but they will also lead and develop their own organisations, as the Asian Youth Movement did in the 70's.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> First of all there not real riots. Lots of kids running around little damage.
> 
> Second with access to the media as the UAF
> 
> ...



As you know Joe there is a close connection between far-right groups and some football hooligans. Looking at the events in Birmingham suggests a connection to the NF, whose close connection to BNP is historical, Bronze being a former Chairman, Wingfield, Griffin et al. There will be those with joint membership too of such groups. Of course they'll be expelled if caught holding duel membership.


----------



## Davo1 (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> So, if I read you right you _are _saying the EDL should have just been left to do what they wanted? Can you confirm yes or no on that?



Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

But isn't Joe saying that you need to THINK about the specific situation and react accordingly.

They aren't the most intelligent people in the world, could you not be a little more creative in how you oppose them?

A traditional rally is what they expect, and you are just furnishing the BNP with more headlines......


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> And you'd leave these beer swilling racists physically unmolested to intimidate and attack Asian people on the streets of Brum. If I were as hysterical as you I'd be 'almost physically sick' at your attitude.
> 
> The presence of the left and Asian youth are there precisely to ensure these racist football hooligans are NOT FREE to shout their racist crap at people with complete impunity.
> 
> Thanks fuck you're irrelevant and someone is doing the right thing



I'm sure you could find many shoppers in Birmingham last week intimidated by the Asian youth.  You can keep tryig to paint as one thing but I don't think most see it that way.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

Some  showing the undisciplined rabble.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> I'm sure you could find many shoppers in Birmingham last week intimidated by the Asian youth.  You can keep tryig to paint as one thing but I don't think most see it that way.



The whole scene must have been very frightening to witness, from a shoppers' point of view. 

You seem to omit that it was the EDL, who ignored the agreed schedule with the police and made their way, some with bulldogs, some masked and brandishing wooden poles, into the New Street area at around 2pm to physically confront non-violent anti-fascist demonstrators who were holding up banners saying 'Give EDL the red card'. 

You seem to forget it was the EDL then proceeded to attack the anti-fascist demonstrators with bottles and glasses and punches and bulldogs, and some masked EDL supporters used wooden poles.

Only after the EDL attacked the anti-fascists physically, did a large group of 'asian' men come hurtling through the streets, looking for the EDL protestors who had entered the area. 

It may well have been one of that group's younger brother or sister was in that group of 30 non-violent anti-fascist protestors being attacked by EDL. It may be that these local youths ignored the city-wide call to avoid reacting to the EDL. We won't know what the connection here is until someone speaks up. Were they intent on violence, or were they responding to a brother/sister in distress and under attack by EDL supporters? I don't know. 

Anyway, it's perfectly clear that Brummies don't want EDL to visit again (see Birmingham alt news/campaigns source 'the Stirrer': http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/


----------



## tarannau (Sep 7, 2009)

To be fair, many shoppers in Birmingham are probably scared by spiders too. A largely irrational fears of 'others' is a different factor from the legitimate belief that the EDL are a thinly veiled band of deliberately provocative racists that deserve opposition.


----------



## mutley (Sep 7, 2009)

Got sent this via a facebook group. Gives people a flavour of how the Muslim youngsters (well one of them) percieve events.

_'Subject: EDL 
Seeing as the EDL like going on field trips on buses, while they hype all over facebook and do f*** all.They also claim that they are not rasict but like holding a Israeli flag to redicule the people who have died in Palestine. Not to mention, throwing insults at Pakistanis by calling them "paki" and insulting Allah.On the whole they were represented in the media as bad so it was sort of succesful although could of been done better.There were around about 3 protest on the day, one by New street, one on Broad street and one outside the Odeon Cinema.it went alrigth becuase the fasict couldent actually do much of the protestSo, good work guys. Theres also a protest in London on the 11th and in Manchester. People who went to the protest and made videos feel free to upload on them on the pageP.S There is a rumor going around that the EDL are going to be on alum rock on TuesdayI doubt its true but you never know its just a rumor thanks to all the non Muslims and Muslims for supporting the movement take it easy'_


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> I'm sure you could find many shoppers in Birmingham last week intimidated by the Asian youth.  You can keep tryig to paint as one thing but I don't think most see it that way.


So, what's the root cause of the trouble? Footage here from last month. Quite bizarre actually, of onlookers watch racists kettled in and chanting 'you dirty fucking muslims' and 'you dirty muslim bastards' among other things.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

, the left and others involved in community struggles, who would have thought it and international too.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:
			
		

> One of the interesting aspects of these events is how confrontational the UAF appears to be, 80 arrests and so forth, when normally, if faced by real fascists and when it is actual SWP members involved, (hunkering down in some cul-de-sac preferably) they are extremely judicious of their safety. Cannon fodder anyone?



The UAF were not there on Saturday. They made the decision to stay away and there was no UAF counter-protest.


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> The UAF were not there on Saturday. They made the decision to stay away and there was no UAF counter-protest.


So I see http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/uaf-stay...n-0309091.html 

Blimey


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

Sorry about the long C&P, but this dispels some myths been peddled.



> More than 30 arrests, countless innocent citizens terrorised, dozens of traders facing drastically reduced takings. The grim statistics of another visit to Birmingham by the English Defence League on a day the police promised would be “business as usual”.
> 
> Still, at least the democratic right to protest has been upheld. But for who?
> 
> ...



http://www.thestirrer.co.uk/business-as-usual-0609091.html


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2009)

Not holding a formal counter-protest doesn't mean they weren't there - don't be so naive. I suppose i didn't see Martin Smith there then?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Not holding a formal counter-protest doesn't mean they weren't there - don't be so naive. I suppose i didn't see Martin Smith there then?



Does that mean if a BNP supporter participated in the EDL-organised riot 'demo', it doesn't mean that the BNP weren't there? 

Oh, and which 'side' were you on, butchersapron?  You're sound like David Duke and his 'UAF Marxists give more great publicity to the BNP', ("While viewing this shocking footage keep in mind that Martin Smith’s UAF is a spin off of the Searchlight Jewish extremist organization" - David Duke, PhDickhead) 

Or is this anti-searchlight, anti-UAF stance just a tactic of yours to attract right-wingers to your fold?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

You did on a video in an observers role it appeared. He actually walked away at one point. Must have spotted the bulldogs.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 7, 2009)

Yes, i sound like David Duke, yes i'm really a long term racist far righter. Go fuck yourself you self appointed liberal Vicar of U75. Not my fault you're so painfully naive.


----------



## sonny61 (Sep 7, 2009)

I get the feeling at least some in the SWP are worried at what they have stirred up.

There is a video floating about on the Internet which shows Muslim youths attacking white anti fascists in Sweden.
Will the same happen here I wonder?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, i sound like David Duke, yes i'm really a long term racist far righter. Go fuck yourself you self appointed liberal Vicar Rabbi of U75. Not my fault you're so painfully naive.



Corrected for you.

You do sound like the far right in your anti-searchlight, anti-UAF screeds. Can't believe you're so painfully naive that you can't see the similarity.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> durutti from what I've seen of your posts I support many of the local campaigning methods that you would.
> 
> But fuck me, for someone who says the far left is irrelevant to the working class, you spend enough time banging on about them. Just leave it alone and do something more useful like working out why pro-working class strategies aren't working at the moment.
> 
> By the way the EDF are an obvious bunch of racist fuckwits who haven't got a clue. Most people I know, across a few different teams, say the same thing. They're seen as a joke. If most football fans can see that they are racist idiots posing at not being racist then I'm surprised you can't.


 i was badly bought up .. 

btw the edl are many differrent things and if you were checking all their online chat u would see many of them are nor racist .. against assimilated uk balck people .. but yes there are ALL anti muslim .. no one lesast of all me has ever suggested there is not a lot of dangerous bigots here .. the argument from me is what sort so how do you destroy fascism ..


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I'm led to believe this is her?


 aka lady leisha lochaber and lady england .. that looks like her with courtney


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> I get the feeling at least some in the SWP are worried at what they have stirred up.
> 
> There is a video floating about on the Internet which shows Muslim youths attacking white anti fascists in Sweden.




The 'anti-fascists' were masked and there's no indication in the video why they were attacked and by whom, so quit your shit stirring.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

1927 said:


> To clarify he is from Barry Island, which may seem like splitting hairs, unless you come form Barry and understand these things!


 hi mate i did ask ed for any stories/info a while back but he did not oblige .. can you?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> aka lady leisha lochaber and lady england .. that looks like her with courtney



And I note a banner for Jason Marriner's site.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Does that mean if a BNP supporter participated in the EDL-organised riot 'demo', it doesn't mean that the BNP weren't there?
> 
> Oh, and which 'side' were you on, butchersapron?  You're sound like David Duke and his 'UAF Marxists give more great publicity to the BNP', ("While viewing this shocking footage keep in mind that Martin Smith’s UAF is a spin off of the Searchlight Jewish extremist organization" - David Duke, PhDickhead)
> 
> Or is this anti-searchlight, anti-UAF stance just a tactic of yours to attract right-wingers to your fold?


 david duke??  .. sorry but you are just a troll .. fuck off .. you know i thought you had a bit of sense


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

Yes durruti02, I'm just a troll  

Or maybe I was distastefully taking the piss at those who seek to blame the UAF for the EDL's behaviour in Brum, or who try to blame Searchlight for the rise of the far-right.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Does that mean if a BNP supporter participated in the EDL-organised riot 'demo', it doesn't mean that the BNP weren't there?
> 
> Oh, and which 'side' were you on, butchersapron?  You're sound like David Duke and his 'UAF Marxists give more great publicity to the BNP', ("While viewing this shocking footage keep in mind that Martin Smith’s UAF is a spin off of the Searchlight Jewish extremist organization" - David Duke, PhDickhead)
> 
> Or is this anti-searchlight, anti-UAF stance just a tactic of yours to attract right-wingers to your fold?



you're way off


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm getting a bit hacked off at the 'it's the UAF's fault there were riots' coming from people who say they're 'the true left', but who are using the same language as the anti-Searchlight, anti-UAF rightwing.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

MC5 said:


> And I note a banner for Jason Marriner's site.


 there's a lot worse on the facebook


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Yes durruti02, I'm just a troll
> 
> Or maybe I was distastefully taking the piss at those who seek to blame the UAF for the EDL's behaviour in Brum, or who try to blame Searchlight for the rise of the far-right.


 and a coward and a liar


----------



## revlon (Sep 7, 2009)

EDL have decided not to return to Birmingham.

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/english-defence-league-demo-5th-september-2009.html


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

revolon - AFAIK, they're planning to head up to Manchester instead.


----------



## sonny61 (Sep 7, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The 'anti-fascists' were masked and there's no indication in the video why they were attacked and by whom, so quit your shit stirring.



The anti fascists were antifa as can be clearly seen.
If the SWP thinks the Muslims are going to be their fighting wing, think again.
Has the SWP forgot what happen with Respect?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I'm getting a bit hacked off at the 'it's the UAF's fault there were riots' coming from people who say they're 'the true left', but who are using the same language as the anti-Searchlight, anti-UAF rightwing.



why did you first write " i'm taking the piss" and then edit it to the above?? 

and btw if you can not tell the differrence between people who want to crush fascism but think that anti-fascists have it wrong tactically AND fascists .. the really you need to just go away and do a bit of learning about all this


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

People can just look back over the last few pages to know where I'm coming from.

They'll understand well enough why I'm hacked off.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> The anti fascists were antifa as can be clearly seen.



They were dressed in black and had masks. Could have been a nationalist autonomous group for all you know. Antifa is big in Sweden, Strange then that there was less than half a dozen, or so of these masked 'antifa'.


----------



## Darios (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Does that mean if a BNP supporter participated in the EDL-organised riot 'demo', it doesn't mean that the BNP weren't there?
> 
> Oh, and which 'side' were you on, butchersapron?  You're sound like David Duke and his 'UAF Marxists give more great publicity to the BNP', ("While viewing this shocking footage keep in mind that Martin Smith’s UAF is a spin off of the Searchlight Jewish extremist organization" - David Duke, PhDickhead)
> 
> Or is this anti-searchlight, anti-UAF stance just a tactic of yours to attract right-wingers to your fold?



Holy shit I think you've just embodied the core of the problem there. I don't see eye to eye on Butchers on any issue and even I can state confidently that you've just gone and wildly overreached. You get criticism from within your own ranks and you turn on eachother like rats.

Cue the next "what's happened to the left!" whinge thread that seems to pop up every three months. Its a bit like Sparticus - "*I'm* right.", "No, *I* am RIGHT", "No, no, no, *I'M* RIGHT".


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

Darios said:


> Holy shit I think you've just embodied the core of the problem there. I don't see eye to eye on Butchers on any issue and even I can state confidently that you've just gone and wildly overreached. You get criticism from within your own ranks and you turn on eachother like rats.
> 
> Cue the next "what's happened to the left!" whinge thread that seems to pop up every three months. Its a bit like Sparticus - "*I'm* right.", "No, *I* am RIGHT", "No, no, no, *I'M* RIGHT".



You're mostly wrong here.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 7, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> The anti fascists were antifa as can be clearly seen.



How can it be clearly seen?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 7, 2009)

Darios said:


> Holy shit I think you've just embodied the core of the problem there. I don't see eye to eye on Butchers on any issue and even I can state confidently that you've just gone and wildly overreached. You get criticism from within your own ranks and you turn on eachother like rats.
> 
> Cue the next "what's happened to the left!" whinge thread that seems to pop up every three months. Its a bit like Sparticus - "*I'm* right.", "No, *I* am RIGHT", "No, no, no, *I'M* RIGHT".



Ah the right are just as riven with disagreements. The mythical idea of a united right is just that. 

People disagree, on tactics, analysis and aims. That's politics for you.


----------



## trevhagl (Sep 7, 2009)

i think it's sad that everything has to be analysed and criticised and must be done THE WAY of the poster in question. I support anyone doing something constructive..

I'll never make a 'lefty' !!!


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

Darios said:


> Holy shit I think you've just embodied the core of the problem there. I don't see eye to eye on Butchers on any issue and even I can state confidently that you've just gone and wildly overreached. You get criticism from within your own ranks and you turn on eachother like rats.
> 
> Cue the next "what's happened to the left!" whinge thread that seems to pop up every three months. Its a bit like Sparticus - "*I'm* right.", "No, *I* am RIGHT", "No, no, no, *I'M* RIGHT".




The sticky-out tongues were a big clue to the deliberately insulting taking-the-piss nature of that post I made. 

Can't imagine why you took that comment with the sticky-out tongues more seriously than the other umpteen very serious comments I've made today.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> People can just look back over the last few pages to know where I'm coming from.
> 
> They'll understand well enough why I'm hacked off.


 yes but you have crossed the line .. and have not the backbone to admit it .. there are plenty of us who slag off the left and yes say that it is at fault fro the rise of the right which i accept if you were a lefty ( i thought you were just a liberal?) .. but the left has consistently on here (and many times before from the stalinist smears that the CNT were fascist 5th columnists in 1936/7 onwards) smeared anyone who disagrees or is to the left with being fascists .. it is simply spineless cowardly bullshit and it si always funny when holier than thou types like you join in as you have nowt else to say


----------



## Darios (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> The sticky-out tongues were a big clue to the deliberately insulting taking-the-piss nature of that post I made.
> 
> Can't imagine why you took that comment with the sticky-out tongues more seriously than the other umpteen very serious comments I've made today.



Its OK sweetheart, I take extra special care and attention with every one of your carefully considered comments.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 7, 2009)

I dismiss yours as trite.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes but you have crossed the line ..


humour tends to do that


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

So where were we? Ah yes, dispelling myths about UAF presence on Brum this last weekend during the EDL 'demo'.





MC5 said:


> Sorry about the long C&P, but this dispels some myths been peddled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## revlon (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> revolon - AFAIK, they're planning to head up to Manchester instead.



i think saturday was a bit of territorial pissing turf war and the edl, or their associated number, looking for a return.

Ironically i think what happened on saturday would've happened at the first edl demo in brum if the uaf hadn't shoehorned in their 'bad nazi' sideshow. I'm still not sure how shouting 'fascism' and being 'anti-fascist' towards such a group is anything other than a distraction. Slightly artificial and certainly unproductive.

Apart from flattering a few egos and writing it up as a moral victory for democracy (ban edl, ban them now!) i'm not really sure what the birmingham escapades achieved on behalf of anti-fascism?

I think time will tell just what benefits the bnp (who were never present or involved) will reap.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

I tend to think of it more of Brummies showing the EDL that EDL's racism and violence was not welcome in their city. 

There had been a multicultural event planned for last Saturday, which, due to the EDL's return, was cancelled at the last minute, on the advice of the police.

I also think the NF are more likely to gain in recruitment from EDL's rise, based on what I've read on the S*fr*nt website.

AFAIK, it was a BNP member who created the EDL website, and several BNP members were initially prominent in the organisation, however, by the time it came to Saturday's 'demo', the police say that no-one from EDL presented themselves a an organiser, and so one can only assume that there are organisers, but these organisers don't wish to make themselves known to the police or general public.


----------



## moon23 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> So where were we? Ah yes, dispelling myths about UAF presence on Brum this last weekend during the EDL 'demo'.



That's a good PR victory for UAF.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

moon23 said:


> That's a good PR victory for UAF.



I'm sure you won't mind if I don't feel excited at the thought of other peoples suffering being considered "a good PR victory".

I'm bothered about the EDL causing worry and fear to communities across Britain, and concerned for the Muslim communities as a whole - this must be alot of stress for them, especially since the EDL intend to take their street-violence on tour.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I'm bothered about the EDL causing worry and fear to communities across Britain, and concerned for the Muslim communities as a whole - this must be alot of stress for them, especially since the EDL intend to take their street-violence on tour.


 if you really are bothered i would seriously suggest you learn more about them as at them moment you are getting stuff wrong .. you are using everything second hand instead of finding out first hand 

btw there was more SWP there than last time .. there national organiser is skulking about in the vids


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

I'll request a personal audience with the Lady of Lochaber then, shall I?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> if you really are bothered i would seriously suggest you learn more about them as at them moment you are getting stuff wrong .. you are using everything second hand instead of finding out first hand


Are you getting your info first or second hand? I'm using the same sources as you to glean info. I presume you're not in EDL central command and privy to their plans at first hand.




			
				durruti02 said:
			
		

> btw there was more SWP there than last time .. their national organiser is skulking about in the vids


Seriously, who else cares? Do I really have to quote David Duke PhDickhead winging about the very same thing at you again.  
It's completely unimportant to me which lefty member of which lefty group was there. It's good someone cared enough to be there.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

.


----------



## purplex (Sep 7, 2009)

The EDL may as well give up because they are now rightly or wrongly seen as far right and violent and that will kill off any interest from moderate people, they havent got the numbers to make these demos work, theyve been tainted by association with right wing activists, their politics are anti-islam hatred, rather than anti islamic extremism. They don't seem to have any real leadership or purpose other than anti-islam hatred.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> The whole scene must have been very frightening to witness, from a shoppers' point of view.
> 
> You seem to omit that it was the EDL, who ignored the agreed schedule with the police and made their way, some with bulldogs, some masked and brandishing wooden poles, into the New Street area at around 2pm to physically confront non-violent anti-fascist demonstrators who were holding up banners saying 'Give EDL the red card'.
> 
> ...



If you know anything of the business its best to save the special pleading for the trial. 

So who organised the 30 non -violent anti-fascists supposedly attacked and put them there? Where were their stewards? Or were they just fully functioning tethered goats?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

purplex said:


> The EDL may as well give up because they are now rightly or wrongly seen as far right and violent and that will kill off any interest from moderate people, they havent got the numbers to make these demos work, theyve been tainted by association with right wing activists, their politics are anti-islam hatred, rather than anti islamic extremism. They don't seem to have any real leadership or purpose other than anti-islam hatred.


 thats about right .. but they are ALSO winding the situation up very successfully


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I'll request a personal audience with the Lady of Lochaber then, shall I?


 no but what you could do is maybe listen to those on here who have been monitoring this stuff for a long time .. you very clearly have not


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

purplex said:


> The EDL may as well give up because they are now rightly or wrongly seen as far right and violent and that will kill off any interest from moderate people, they havent got the numbers to make these demos work, theyve been tainted by association with right wing activists, their politics are anti-islam hatred, rather than anti islamic extremism. They don't seem to have any real leadership or purpose other than anti-islam hatred.



Thta's a good summary, although I hear their invisible organisers are supposedly planning a demo on 10th October 2009 in Manchester city centre.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 7, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> _invisible organisers_


----------



## purplex (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> thats about right .. but they are ALSO winding the situation up very successfully



To what end? further restrictions on peoples right to protest. Thats really the main thing I can see coming out of this. Its further weaponry for the government to use against activists in general.
yes you're right d but they are achieving something very different from their original aims. its more oldham/bradford on tour.
I think they are already a dead organization tbh


----------



## Spion (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> no but what you could do is maybe listen to those on here who have been monitoring this stuff for a long time ..


Do you also spend ages poking at dog turds before you're sure what they are? Jeez, I'd despair if it weren't obvious you were so wrong and irrelevant


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes but you have crossed the line .. and have not the backbone to admit it .. there are plenty of us who slag off the left and yes say that it is at fault fro the rise of the right which i accept if you were a lefty ( i thought you were just a liberal?) .. but the left has consistently on here (and many times before from the stalinist smears that the CNT were fascist 5th columnists in 1936/7 onwards) smeared anyone who disagrees or is to the left with being fascists .. it is simply spineless cowardly bullshit and it si always funny when holier than thou types like you join in as you have nowt else to say



Its quite clear where he's coming from. You, on the other hand, can't write a coherent sentence. Must be that SWP obsession that so many have on P&P addling your brain. Its weird, you know that? Its like a psychiatric disorder...


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 7, 2009)

purplex said:


> To what end? further restrictions on peoples right to protest. Thats really the main thing I can see coming out of this. Its further weaponry for the government to use against activists in general.
> yes you're right d but they are achieving something very different from their original aims. its more oldham/bradford on tour.
> I think they are already a dead organization tbh



I linked to this PDF (see Redmond-Bate v. DPP [1999] Crim LR 998, page 296) a few pages back - you'll probably find it very useful/interesting, purplex.
PDF:  Freedom of assembly and public order


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 7, 2009)

purplex said:


> To what end? further restrictions on peoples right to protest. Thats really the main thing I can see coming out of this. Its further weaponry for the government to use against activists in general.
> yes you're right d but they are achieving something very different from their original aims. its more oldham/bradford on tour.
> I think they are already a dead organization tbh



yes possibly .. i suggested from the off that this whole bullshit may be some state op .. the state has always infiltrated fasc groups and IF this is the case AND IF the startegy is to create trouble with the aim to then crack down on 'extremists' .. then it is working a treat with the mugs form HnH and Yaqoob and UAF falling into a trap of demanding bans on demonstrations etc 

but their original aims are impossible to say .. whose original aims? paul rays ( nutty christian crusader) ? chris rentons (bnp)? jeff marshes(hoolie and anti islamist)? trevor kelway (he off the we are not racists on all the videos) is having a joke with joel titus (black and anti islamist) today saying something like " joel they saying you are a right winger!lol" JT replies " lol well i am when it comes to people blowing us up"

so i do not think there has ever been a clear 'this is the edl' .. and i think you may be right that they have gone as far as it can go .. it is not possible for them to pulloff what they did in August in Brum .. all the "black and white unite" and anti bnp placards fucked off too many of their supportters .. and anything they do will inevitably just attract people wanting a row so yes teh contradictions are too many 

 but just as with the BNP , even if EDl were no platformed and or collapsed it would not deal with the underlying issues ..


----------



## cantsin (Sep 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ...



you're a messed up little  prick...

you think  "... * is a an appropriate response to this :

"If that's what they are then the question is, what is it that makes them think that it's a good idea to go rucking with pakis in the centre of brum now and why do they seem to expect support?"


----------



## cantsin (Sep 7, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> Sorry, where does the report show any violence?  Do/would the UAF point out Muslim aggressors to the police?
> 
> You seem to be claiming I stated that Muslim gangs 'started' this by trying to pick fights with England supporters.  I said no such thing.  But you have to accept that reacting with violence, whatever the circumstances, carries it's own consequences.  The Muslim youth acting the way will bring out more white youth to oppose them and for reasons that go beyond what either the EDL or UAF are campaigning against.
> 
> ...



lol, we bow before your superior knowledge of 'the enemy ' you utter sausage


----------



## treelover (Sep 7, 2009)

> Birmingham’s top Muslim leader urged his followers to “vent their feelings” against anti-Islamic protesters during a weekend rally that ended in violence and dozens of arrests, The Times can reveal.
> 
> Muslims were encouraged by the Birmingham Central Mosque to counter-demonstrate during Saturday’s protest in the city, which was organised by the right-wing English Defence League (EDL). It is understood that Muslims were encouraged to confront the protest against the advice given by the West Midlands Police to community leaders to stop their followers from attending.
> 
> ...



While cautious about this article , this is the Mo Naseem who claimed that 911 'was caused by the Jews' and was a big funder of Respect, choose your allies wisely, mmmm


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 8, 2009)

treelover said:
			
		

> While cautious about this article , this is the Mo Naseem who claimed that 911 'was caused by the Jews' ... choose your allies wisely, mmmm


And your sources more wisely.

Incidently, your source for the above would be who exactly, and completely verifiable I presume? (I hope!)


----------



## purplex (Sep 8, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes possibly .. i suggested from the off that this whole bullshit may be some state op .. the state has always infiltrated fasc groups and IF this is the case AND IF the startegy is to create trouble with the aim to then crack down on 'extremists' .. then it is working a treat with the mugs form HnH and Yaqoob and UAF falling into a trap of demanding bans on demonstrations etc
> 
> but their original aims are impossible to say .. whose original aims? paul rays ( nutty christian crusader) ? chris rentons (bnp)? jeff marshes(hoolie and anti islamist)? trevor kelway (he off the we are not racists on all the videos) is having a joke with joel titus (black and anti islamist) today saying something like " joel they saying you are a right winger!lol" JT replies " lol well i am when it comes to people blowing us up"
> 
> ...



The underlying issues being? 
Islamists wandering the streets? The daily mail hate agenda - which these groups seem to be mirroring?


----------



## Spion (Sep 8, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes possibly .. i suggested from the off that this whole bullshit may be some state op ..


I'm fresh out of tinfoil. Anyone got any?


----------



## STFC (Sep 8, 2009)

Well I think Casuals United are doing a great job in protecting us from the scourge of Islamic fundamentalism and we should all be grateful to them. If only our lilly-livered government would do something about the extremists in our midst, we wouldn't need groups like CU.

See what Tony Blair said about them after they foiled the liquid bomb plot:



> Writing in the Sun newspaper he said: "These dedicated men and women work tirelessly behind the scenes, whose names we will often never know, unable to get the full, public credit they deserve.
> 
> "I know we are all safer because of their work."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8243176.stm


----------



## Raw SslaC (Sep 8, 2009)

STFC said:


> Well I think Casuals United are doing a great job in protecting us from the scourge of Islamic fundamentalism and we should all be grateful to them. If only our lilly-livered government would do something about the extremists in our midst, we wouldn't need groups like CU.



No they not. Do thing the marches in Birmingham or Luton has decreased Islamic Fundementalist attidudes or allowed the nutcases in the mulsim communities to be proved right about the need to politicise their youth in to fighting for sharia?


----------



## Balbi (Sep 8, 2009)

The League of Extraordinary Lugheads.


----------



## STFC (Sep 8, 2009)

Raw SslaC said:


> No they not. Do thing the marches in Birmingham or Luton has decreased Islamic Fundementalist attidudes or allowed the nutcases in the mulsim communities to be proved right about the need to politicise their youth in to fighting for sharia?



Next you'll be telling me they didn't foil the liquid bomb plot either...


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 8, 2009)

STFC said:


> Next you'll be telling me they didn't foil the liquid bomb plot either...



They didn't foil the liquid bomb plot either


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 8, 2009)

I thought Football Casuals were a bunch of football-loving, well-dressed blokes who lived for the match ... blokes that a girl could rely upon to do the right thing (unless their team happened to be playing that day) ... blokes who bothered more about the colour of your shirt than the colour of your skin ... blokes who'd rib you senseless for not supporting the same team as them ... blokes who mostly had to have the latest club shirt (but not without a moan about the price)


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 8, 2009)

STFC said:


> Well I think Casuals United are doing a great job in protecting us from the scourge of Islamic fundamentalism and we should all be grateful to them. If only our lilly-livered government would do something about the extremists in our midst, we wouldn't need groups like CU.



Ah, you said 'Casuals United', not Football Casuals. My bad. 

Is there any irony in what you wrote, STFC, or do you really believe they're doing a great job?


----------



## STFC (Sep 8, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Ah, you said 'Casuals United', not Football Casuals. My bad.
> 
> Is there any irony in what you wrote, STFC, or do you really believe they're doing a great job?



Did the liquid bomb plot/Tony Blair quote not give it away?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 8, 2009)

STFC said:


> Did the liquid bomb plot/Tony Blair quote not give it away?



I guess so, but I wanted to make sure


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 8, 2009)

cantsin said:


> lol, we bow before your superior knowledge of 'the enemy ' you utter sausage



That makes two of us then.

Thanks for pointing out all the rubbish I was talking with a well argued, clearly defined counter argument.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> no but what you could do is maybe listen to those on here who have been monitoring this stuff for a long time .. you very clearly have not



This edl stuff has exposed a lot of the usual bigots on here who just want to judge people on their appearances.
Not a lot of point debating with them in a way as they are so fixed in their views.


----------



## Spion (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> This edl stuff has exposed a lot of the usual bigots on here who just want to judge people on their appearances.


I'm clearly one of those bigots. I'm prejudiced against people that chant' You dirty muslim bastards' etc. My bad. I'm so sorry


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

Spion said:


> I'm clearly one of those bigots. I'm prejudiced against people that chant' You dirty muslim bastards' etc. My bad. I'm so sorry



Yeah not a great chant spion. But I dont know why some people always want o pick sides when both sides seem a bit dodgy? I guess some of it is just bigotry. Probably the people who know less about muslims will be much happier to be against the edl, id guess.
Where as people with more direct experience will know more about the racism, sexism and homophobia of a large proportion of muslim men and think bollocks to both of them.
I'd guess your somebody who knows very few muslims.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Where as people with more direct experience will know more about the racism, sexism and homophobia of a large proportion of muslim men and think bollocks to both of them.
> I'd guess your somebody who knows very few muslims.



Prat.


----------



## Spion (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Yeah not a great chant spion. But I dont know why some people always want o pick sides when both sides seem a bit dodgy? I guess some of it is just bigotry. Probably the people who know less about muslims will be much happier to be against the edl, id guess.
> Where as people with more direct experience will know more about the racism, sexism and homophobia of a large proportion of muslim men and think bollocks to both of them.
> I'd guess your somebody who knows very few muslims.


Put yourself in Europe in the late 1930s and substitute Jews for Muslims. Your moral compass is spinning out of control


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> This edl stuff has exposed a lot of the usual bigots on here who just want to judge people on their appearances.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 8, 2009)

How can anyone not see these as far right prats with a racist agenda?

Even if the hardline fash aren't great amongst their number they have plenty of skinhead hoolie types willing to chant anti-muslim slogans.

Honestly there is no excuse for them.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

Yep that certainly exposes the kind of bigotry i am talking about. There skinheads so they must be racists.....fair enough i suppose......


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> How can anyone not see these as far right prats with a racist agenda?
> 
> Even if the hardline fash aren't great amongst their number they have plenty of skinhead hoolie types willing to chant anti-muslim slogans.
> 
> Honestly there is no excuse for them.



If there is no excuse for racism why does nobody speak out against racial segregation when it comes to mosques?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> If there is no excuse for racism why does nobody speak out against racial segregation when it comes to mosques?



what?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> If there is no excuse for racism why does nobody speak out against racial segregation when it comes to mosques?



Because it almost never happens?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 8, 2009)

And even if it did it would not excuse a a blatantly shit-stirring march by racists


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> Because it almost never happens?



Yep Malcolm you probably met the Arab dad who was pleased that his daughter met the Pakistani boy, and then met the Pakistani dad who was pleased his daughter was getting married to the muslim convert from Jamaica and then picked up all your presents from Santa in lapland.

Cos of course Racism its just a white working class fing.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

They're not racists, DotCom, they're just helping out as there's a rush on Islamophobia at the moment!


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 8, 2009)

Religious and cultural divisions are not a justification for the EDL you tool.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Yep Malcolm you probably met the Arab dad who was pleased that his daughter met the Pakistani boy, and then met the Pakistani dad who was pleased his daughter was getting married to the muslim convert from Jamaica and then picked up all your presents from Santa in lapland.
> 
> Cos of course Racism its just a white working class fing.



Heh, well, as someone who bangs on about being a member of the white working classes all the time you're doing a good job of helping dispel that idea.

e2a, if you can provide some credible evidence that mainstream islam routinely segregates mosques by race, I'll eat my own bum.


----------



## Shevek (Sep 8, 2009)

can anyone summarise this thread. Cant be arsed to read through 30 odd pages.

ta 

shvk


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> They're not racists, DotCom, they're just helping out as there's a rush on Islamophobia at the moment!



I'd lend a hand, but my jew-beating activities take up much of my free time.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Religious and cultural divisions are not a justification for the EDL you tool.



Guess thats aimed at me DC.
Not trying to justify the edl. But if people are so opposed to what they are guessing as their racism why are they not more bothered about racism,sexism and homophobia amongst the people they amusingly think there supporting?

I think its down to a mixture of their own ignorance and racism.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

Shevek said:


> can anyone summarise this thread. Cant be arsed to read through 30 odd pages.
> 
> ta
> 
> shvk



Urban's post-racism fanatics defend the working classes by supporting racially motivated attacks on immigrants.

Urban's liberal-handwringers say how awful it is.

Urban's politically minded types take everyone to task from their own political biases and get accused of bigotry and anti-white or anti-working class bias.

Urban's hand-wringing types give up and leave.

Those in an argumentative mood stay.

Thread dies in flames.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Yep that certainly exposes the kind of bigotry i am talking about. There skinheads so they must be racists.....fair enough i suppose......



Only the skinheads who are racist are racist. Those skinheads who are not racist are not racist.

Pretty simple really.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> Heh, well, as someone who bangs on about being a member of the white working classes all the time you're doing a good job of helping dispel that idea.
> 
> e2a, if you can provide some credible evidence that mainstream islam routinely segregates mosques by race, I'll eat my own bum.



Have you ever been outside malcolm?
Think things out there might be a little different to what you think.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Guess thats aimed at me DC.
> Not trying to justify the edl. But if people are so opposed to what they are guessing as their racism why are they not more bothered about racism,sexism and homophobia amongst the people they amusingly think there supporting?
> 
> I think its down to a mixture of their own ignorance and racism.



See?

tbaldwin, you're a legend.


----------



## Shevek (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> Urban's post-racism fanatics defend the working classes by supporting racially motivated attacks on immigrants.
> 
> Urban's liberal-handwringers say how awful it is.
> 
> ...



cheers


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Have you ever been outside malcolm?
> Think things out there might be a little different to what you think.



That's a no to actually backing up your claims then?


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

Shevek said:


> can anyone summarise this thread. Cant be arsed to read through 30 odd pages.
> 
> ta
> 
> shvk



Lots of people on here who seem to think they are really nice clever people and want to find a new (or not so new) group to scapegoat.
People with a preety fascistic world view based on what they see as their superiority.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Lots of people on here who seem to think they are really nice clever people and want to find a new (or not so new) group to scapegoat.
> People with a preety fascistic world view based on what they see as their superiority.



Mental.


----------



## Spion (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Lots of people on here who seem to think they are really nice clever people and want to find a new (or not so new) group to scapegoat.
> People with a preety fascistic world view based on what they see as their superiority.


Get some help. You're projecting like fuck


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> That's a no to actually backing up your claims then?



Do some basic research Malcolm. Do you know any Muslims? Maybe ask one if the mosque they go to has people from different races. Its not difficult just move your mouth up and down and watch the words fall out.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

baldwin, when you're beating up muslims, do you check first to see if they're one of the racist ones, or just assume that they are?


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> baldwin, when you're beating up muslims, do you check first to see if they're one of the racist ones, or just assume that they are?



malcolm when your making stupid assumptions do you ever think i am going to look back at this one day and be really really embarrased?


----------



## Shevek (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Lots of people on here who seem to think they are really nice clever people and want to find a new (or not so new) group to scapegoat.
> People with a preety fascistic world view based on what they see as their superiority.



Are you saying that urbanites have a pretty fascistic world view !!!!!!!! I don't know about the politics forums but urbanites in general seem to have a pretty compassionate worldview (tinged towards the left I admit - but I like that too). I don't know much about these 'casuals united' apart from what I saw on the TV in Birmingham a couple of weeks ago. They seem to be misdirected thugs. They probably have some valid arguments i.e. poverty/lack of jobs etc.. but they direct that against immigrants in a xenophobic way. They are working class but they are going towards the right rather than the left. I think they should go towards the left/be inclusive.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Do some basic research Malcolm. Do you know any Muslims? Maybe ask one if the mosque they go to has people from different races. Its not difficult just move your mouth up and down and watch the words fall out.



I know plenty, cheers.  I work with Muslims as colleagues and as clients.  My work takes me into contact with Muslim charities, mosques, imams, teachers, and all sorts of good people.  It also brings me into contact with Muslim criminals and junkies too.  I think I can safely say that Muslims are no better or worse than any other arbitrarily selected group of human beings.

How about you, do they let you talk to other people on day release?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> malcolm when your making stupid assumptions do you ever think i am going to look back at this one day and be really really embarrased?



Did you get a stiffy when you think you're being clever?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

Shevek said:


> Are you saying that urbanites have a pretty fascistic world view !!!!!!!! I don't know about the politics forums but urbanites in general seem to have a pretty compassionate worldview (tinged towards the left I admit - but I like that too). I don't know much about these 'casuals united' apart from what I saw on the TV in Birmingham a couple of weeks ago. They seem to be misdirected thugs. They probably have some valid arguments i.e. poverty/lack of jobs etc.. but they direct that against immigrants in a xenophobic way. They are working class but they are going towards the right rather than the left. I think they should go towards the left/be inclusive.



You've just outed yourself as a bigot and a fascist.  You're on tbaldwin's list now.


----------



## revlon (Sep 8, 2009)

There was a demo a year or so ago in Birmingham by sikhs, about the same size as the edl demo, against 'muslim extremism'. 

The left didn't shunter down with their smash the bnp placards calling everyone racist and occasionally recoiling in horror that the white working class aren't always the obedient proletariat of our revolutionary dreams. In fact a demonstration by sikhs against muslim extremism can't be anything other than racist if we're defining the logic of this thread.

There is much confusion about what constitutes racism and much following of party lines concerning the religious concept of islam. And it's this that colours all and every attempt to move beyond the idea that simply screaming 'facsist' at convenient intervals is a politically expedient strategy in these turbulent times.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 8, 2009)

Most of the left didn't shunter off to this protest either.


----------



## Shevek (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> You've just outed yourself as a bigot and a fascist.  You're on tbaldwin's list now.





just label me as a racist then its easier than having an open discussion. I am quite open minded and willing to take on new ideas. Try me.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

malcolm eggs said:


> I know plenty, cheers.  I work with Muslims as colleagues and as clients.  My work takes me into contact with Muslim charities, mosques, imams, teachers, and all sorts of good people.  It also brings me into contact with Muslim criminals and junkies too.  I think I can safely say that Muslims are no better or worse than any other arbitrarily selected group of human beings.
> 
> How about you, do they let you talk to other people on day release?



Any muslim friends? erm....
Muslims in the UK face many problems high rates of unemployment and many of them have torrid lives in forced and arranged marriages. You seriously think the edl are one of the bigger problems muslims in the UK face? 
Lets face it Malcolm if you do,it probably says far more about your ignorance and bigotry than anybone connected to the edl.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

revlon said:


> There was a demo a year or so ago in Birmingham by sikhs, about the same size as the edl demo, against 'muslim extremism'.
> 
> The left didn't shunter down with their smash the bnp placards calling everyone racist and occasionally recoiling in horror that the white working class are always the obedient proletariat of our revolutionary dreams. In fact a demonstration by sikhs against muslim extremism can't be anything other than racist if we're defining the logic of this thread.
> 
> There is much confusion about what constitutes racism and much following of party lines concerning the religious concept of islam. And it's this that colours all and every attempt to move beyond the idea that simply screaming 'facsist' at convenient intervals is a politically expedient strategy in these turbulent times.



I think some people on the liberal left are deeply uneasy actually saying anything thought through about racism.
They ignore anything that doesnt fit in with a very cliched and worn out world view that is increasingly ridiculous.
Its laughable the way some of them try to dress up their ignorance and bigotry as some kind of defence of muslims.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 8, 2009)

Shevek said:


> can anyone summarise this thread. Cant be arsed to read through 30 odd pages.
> 
> ta
> 
> shvk



No, Mr. Imalazyliberalcanyoudomyresearchforme, we can't/won't/shan't.


----------



## Shevek (Sep 8, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> No, Mr. Imalazyliberalcanyoudomyresearchforme, we can't/won't/shan't.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 8, 2009)

Shevek said:


>



Taxi!


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 8, 2009)

Shevek said:


> just label me as a racist then its easier than having an open discussion. I am quite open minded and willing to take on new ideas. Try me.



How about irony?


----------



## revlon (Sep 8, 2009)

Interesting. Edl might have dipped out of birmingham but casuals united are promising to return. Seems a definable seperation between the 2 groups is emerging.



> The EDL say they wont go back to Brum in the near future, Casuals United however, intend to arrive unnanounced as we did the first time, hold a protest then leave, leaving the left wing rabble rousers and evil clerics no time to whip up a mob to attack anyone.


http://casualsunited.webs.com/


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The 'anti-fascists' were masked and there's no indication in the video why they were attacked and by whom, so quit your shit stirring.




Remind me who it was topped the communists/trade unionists/progressive left etc after the revolution against the Shah?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> Remind me who it was topped the communists/trade unionists/progressive left etc after the revolution against the Shah?



I don't have to remind you Joe, because you already know the answer, but what has the regime of the ayatollahs in Iran to do with events where a rabble are intimidating the ordinary people of Luton, Birmingham etc?


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I don't have to remind you Joe, because you already know the answer, but what has the regime of the ayatollahs in Iran to do with events where a rabble are intimidating the ordinary people of Luton, Birmingham etc?



I know a muslim woman being forced to marry her cousin in pakistan. Should i tell her the real issue for muslims in the UK is white men with shave heads who cheer for enngeeerlund....


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Most of us, even you Joe, I expect are extremely judicious of their own safety.
> 
> Weymen Bennett reportedly attacked, two long standing members car in Yorkshire firebombed, telephone threats, redwatch. That's just recently, I could go on about the seventies, but I won't.



My point is since the early 1980's the SWP went way out of their way to avoid any confrontation with the far-right, as was possible. This was policy for thirty years. They sold on the same sites as NF and abandoned sites where such an arrangement was not possible. Basically they marched _away_ from 'the sound of gunfire' and collaborated with police as a matter of routine. If the counter-protest was static they usually skulked in a cul-de-sac, the beauty of the said cul-de-sac being that could not 'break out' -allowing 'police protect the fascists' could be sunk with particular gusto- in the knowledge that the fash would have to get through police lines to get to them, as there no other access. 

Accordingly any time individual members came unstuck was down to a) bad luck or b) plain stupidity. 

Now suddenly the SWP leadership are all up for it apparently? 

Yet another UAF backed 'counter riot' planned for the anniversary of 9/11 in London on Friday.  

Of course the CC are all entering their dotage ...how else to explain this violent policy reversal?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I don't have to remind you Joe, because you already know the answer, but what has the regime of the ayatollahs in Iran to do with events where a rabble are intimidating the ordinary people of Luton, Birmingham etc?



I suppose my general point is in reference to the previous post is that activists motivated by religion are not naturally progressive as the left assume here and assumed in Iran and were slaughtered in their tens of thousands as a result. So the notion which you regected out of hand of Muslim youth attacking anti-fascists in Sweden is not as far-fetched as it sounds.


----------



## asbestos (Sep 8, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> Now suddenly the SWP leadership are all up for it apparently?



As you mention, the line of police that separated the swp from fash in the past (more to the benefit of the swp) now has the added bonus of pumped asian youth adding an even larger buffer.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> My point is since the early 1980's the SWP went way out of their way to avoid any confrontation with the far-right, as was possible. This was policy for thirty years. They sold on the same sites as NF and abandoned sites where such an arrangement was not possible. Basically they marched _away_ from 'the sound of gunfire' and collaborated with police as a matter of routine. If the counter-protest was static they usually skulked in a cul-de-sac, the beauty of the said cul-de-sac being that could not 'break out' -allowing 'police protect the fascists' could be sunk with particular gusto- in the knowledge that the fash would have to get through police lines to get to them, as there no other access.
> 
> Accordingly any time individual members came unstuck was down to a) bad luck or b) plain stupidity.
> 
> ...



The fascists split asunder in the eighties and it seemed to me the sensible option not to chase after the Hollywood Nazi's who were left.

It was Griffin et al who walked away, with a tiny group, to form the third positionists and ended up one time in that Muslim country called Libya begging for dosh.

As I haven't been a member of the SWP for the last twenty years, I won't answer for them now, but I would have thought that they would side with those being intimidated, abused and assaulted.

@ tbaldwin, that goes for any Muslim woman suffering the same fate, whoever it came from.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> I suppose my general point is in reference to the previous post is that activists motivated by religion are not naturally progressive as the left assume here and assumed in Iran and were slaughtered in their tens of thousands as a result. So the notion which you regected out of hand of Muslim youth attacking anti-fascists in Sweden is not as far-fetched as it sounds.



I've seen that video and it certainly is not clear whose attacking whom and why. Although, I've seen another few videos from French sources and there are clearly Muslims, both black, asian and white fighting with masked French antifa who it appears have connections with anarcho syndicalists groups in France, so I know it's happened. There are also antifa in other European countries () who appear active alongside Muslim youth, so not as simple as some are making out.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> I know a muslim woman being forced to marry her cousin in pakistan. Should i tell her the real issue for muslims in the UK is white men with shave heads who cheer for enngeeerlund....



It is if they are smashing your shop windows and assaulting your taxi driver son.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 8, 2009)

They're the fucking fash! I don't care what bollocks the facebook groups paint it out to be. It's the politics of the hooligans, it's the 70s' NF spunked into the information age.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> It is if they are smashing your shop windows and assaulting your taxi driver son.



Good lord, have you been watching love thy neigbour or something?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2009)

Whar are the politics of hooligans? Ironically when some posters have identified those who are involved in anti social behaviour , crime and anti working class activities within working class communities there has been the usual liberal left cry of 'don't divide the working class' or blame the govt.

The EDL is a diversion , a handy diversion for those desperate to pin the tail on any  pantomine fash it can find.The real threat from  the BNP but of course engaging in defaating them would require building a political alternative , something that 'anti fascism' doesn't and cannot do.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Whar are the politics of hooligans?



Pardon me for generalisations but I took one look at the goons on the Whitechapel video to be able to deduce what kind of folk we're discussing here. 

Take a look for yourself. It's hardly a broad section of disenfranchised young white working class men, is it?

Do you see any similarities with them all?

Here it is for posterity:


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Good lord, have you been watching love thy neigbour or something?



Good sitcom, but no.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Pardon me for generalisations but I took one look at the goons on the Whitechapel video to deduce what kind of folk we're discussing here.
> 
> Take a look for yourself. It's hardly a broad section of disenfranchised young white working class men, is it?
> 
> ...



I know that first impressions are important but would you like to explain a bit further?What is it about the way they look that gives you such insight?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> I know that first impressions are important but would you like to explain a bit further?What is it about the way they look that gives you such insight?


it's fucking mystifying innit. c66 and d02 combined approaches appears to be to undermine this mob by, err, repeatedly posting links to their dodgy vids and unexpurgated rantings. which is a bit strange to say the least.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

It's the way  in Luton, during a two minutes silence for "our troops" shouting "fucking pakis", that gives me some insight in what the game is with this mob.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> I know that first impressions are important but would you like to explain a bit further?What is it about the way they look that gives you such insight?



It's not so much the way they look, more that they all look like clones of each other. 

Hardly a broad section of proles coming out on the streets, eh?

If it wasn't for the bursts of moronic chanting I suppose you could mistake it for the crowd at your average Madness concert.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 8, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> it's fucking mystifying innit. c66 and d02 combined approaches appears to be to undermine this mob by, err, repeatedly posting links to their dodgy vids and unexpurgated rantings. which is a bit strange to say the least.



I'm commenting on that particular video which is why I linked to it you fucking numpty.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> ...engaging in defaating them [BNP] would require building a political alternative , something that 'anti fascism' doesn't and cannot do.



The IWCA wouldn't exist if it's core members hadn't involved themselves in anti-fascism.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 8, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Whar are the politics of hooligans? Ironically when some posters have identified those who are involved in anti social behaviour , crime and anti working class activities within working class communities there has been the usual liberal left cry of 'don't divide the working class' or blame the govt.



Have you an example of such a cry?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 8, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm commenting on that particular video which is why I linked to it you fucking numpty.


took you 2 months from when d02 posted it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 9, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> took you 2 months from when d02 posted it.



I've been in rehab for 8 weeks!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> I've been in rehab for 8 weeks!


aha, fair enough 

g'luck old bean and all that.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 9, 2009)

Cheers.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 9, 2009)

balls wrong thread


----------



## Bajie (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> It's the way  in Luton, during a two minutes silence for "our troops" shouting "fucking pakis", that gives me some insight in what the game is with this mob.



Looked like the police where bricking themselves most of the time, the Luton cops need some guidance from the Met in how to beat people up properly! 

Though that is probably just what the other lots of idiots (the muslim extremist ones) wanted to happen though.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 9, 2009)

The whole EDL website is showing a Error 404 error message now, either they have done too much coke and deleted it all or they have been hacked again.


----------



## purplex (Sep 9, 2009)

.


----------



## purplex (Sep 9, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Guess thats aimed at me DC.
> Not trying to justify the edl. But if people are so opposed to what they are guessing as their racism why are they not more bothered about racism,sexism and homophobia amongst the people they amusingly think there supporting?
> 
> I think its down to a mixture of their own ignorance and racism.



Are they marching up and down the streets imposing their ignorance, racism and homophobia on other British people?

There are surely plenty of white sexists, racists and homophobes, why choose someone of a specific religion to take a pop at.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The fascists split asunder in the eighties and it seemed to me the sensible option not to chase after the Hollywood Nazi's who were left.



When you get down to it there's no lie like an old lie.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 9, 2009)

I see the EDL are targetting a big mosque on Friday for the 911 anniversary. With UAF piling in for the aggro it may be a chance for the Truthers to get between them and seem quite sensible by comparison.


----------



## glenquagmire (Sep 9, 2009)

I received this yesterday but I don't know what what source. Anyone know if UAF is organising?



> THERE IS ONLY 3 DAYS TO GO UNTIL THE THREATENED PROTEST AGAINST HARROW CENTRAL MOSQUE ON SEPTEMBER 11th.
> 
> The Harrow Times website is reporting that "The event [the protest against the mosque] is being advertised through social networking website Facebook where 206 people say they will go, 560 say they might go and 1,120 are yet to reply." It has been taken off the English Defence League and British Defence League websites, but some of these facebook groups are sponsored by them and by similar groups. One belongs to a woman who asks people to contact her if they want to take part and advertises herself as a "fan" of Nick Griffin, the BNP and Enoch Powell. The EDL is the group that rampaged through Luton, where they were not opposed, smashing the windows of Asian owned shops and shouting abuse at Muslims. We cannot allow them to march unopposed through Harrow. If they get away with doing that, they will be back for more.
> 
> ...


----------



## asbestos (Sep 9, 2009)

glenquagmire said:


> We are black, white, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Sikh and Jew



sex bucket.


----------



## purplex (Sep 9, 2009)

From Casuals Uniteds site 

_Hizb al Tahir are maching in Central London on Sunday 13th September

This is the terrorist supporting "we are Hezbollah" mob

We need all our lads to turn out to let them know they arent welcome here_


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 9, 2009)

purplex said:


> "We need all our lads to turn out to let them know they arent welcome here"



Well I hope they're not being bussed in from cunting Brum to lecture people on who is or isn't welcome in London.

Not that I'm a fan of the islamist Hizb al Tahir but isn't their right to freedom of speech the very same one that the far right keep rattling on about?


----------



## STFC (Sep 9, 2009)

It's Hizb ut-Tahrir, isn't it? If you're opposed to something then you should at least know how to spell it.

Are they marching on Sunday?


----------



## Spion (Sep 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> It's Hizb ut-Tahrir, isn't it? If you're opposed to something then you should at least know how to spell it.


Both are correct. It's a matter of transliteration from the Arabic, and there's no single convention on that. An Arabic speaker would know that 'al-tahrir' coming immediately after 'Hizb' would add a 'u' ending to Hizb which also alters the definite article following into a 'u' sound and that the word 'tahrir' when used with the definite article alters the definite article from 'al' to 'at'.

If you're opposed to something you should at least know the rules involved in writing it down in a different script


----------



## STFC (Sep 9, 2009)

Fair enough, although I've only ever seen it spelt 'my' way before. It's also how it's spelt on their official site.

So, any truth in the claims that they are marching on Sunday? If so, what's it in aid of?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> It's Hizb ut-Tahrir, isn't it? If you're opposed to something then you should at least know how to spell it.



I took the spelling from the other post. And I don't need to be able to spell cunt to realise that you're one.


----------



## STFC (Sep 9, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> I took the spelling from the other post. And I don't need to be able to spell cunt to realise that you're one.



What's the abuse for? I was clearly referring to whoever advertised the fact they are marching in the first place (i.e. CU).


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> What's the abuse for? I was clearly referring to whoever advertised the fact they are marching in the first place (i.e. CU).



Erm... oops!

accept my deepest apologies.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> When you get down to it there's no lie like an old lie.



An historical fact.

In 1979/1980 thousands left the NF, later exacerbated by the split between the Tyndallites. During the eighties the NF split and re-split whilst the BNP just about held together during the 1980's, so no lie.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Have you an example of such a cry?



look at the outcry when the IWCA made a contribution on the very same subject


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The IWCA wouldn't exist if it's core members hadn't involved themselves in anti-fascism.



The conclusion of which was that to fight facsism you need a political alternative for working class communities, that the BNP were in danger of becoming that political alternative, that physical force anti fascism was over and done with as the BNP had withdrawn from march and grow in order to gain political support on the door step, finally that the BNP are the biggest threat to working class communities not the pantomine side show of the NF, the BPP, or EDL or any other short shelf life organisation who just happen to roughly fit what UAF thinks the 'real' threat might look like for their outdated tactics.

Get with the programme MC5


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> look at the outcry when the IWCA made a contribution on the very same subject



I asked for an example of the "..liberal left cry of 'don't divide the working class' or blame the govt." you claimed had been posted in response to some posters here, but I still see you haven't produced one?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I asked for an example of the "..liberal left cry of 'don't divide the working class' or blame the govt." you claimed had been posted in response to some posters here, but I still see you haven't produced one?




Your are a lazy cunt in more ways than one:

http://www.iwca.info/?p=10134

there was some debate on this on this site and also on MATB


----------



## Spion (Sep 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> The conclusion of which was that to fight facsism you need a political alternative for working class communities, that the BNP were in danger of becoming that political alternative, that physical force anti fascism was over and done with as the BNP had withdrawn from march and grow in order to gain political support on the door step, finally that the BNP are the biggest threat to working class communities not the pantomine side show of the NF, the BPP, or EDL or any other short shelf life organisation who just happen to roughly fit what UAF thinks the 'real' threat might look like for their outdated tactics.


And it's been an overwhelming success! 

Aslo, babies and bathwater come to mind. Like zealous converts the former street fighters who went on to be in the IWCA seem to be overcompensating for what they perceive as their former sins


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> An historical fact.
> 
> In 1979/1980 thousands left the NF, later exacerbated by the split between the Tyndallites. During the eighties the NF split and re-split whilst the BNP just about held together during the 1980's, so no lie.



Be honest , we were both in the SWP at the time. The CC told us that the war was over.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> The conclusion of which was that to fight facsism you need a political alternative for working class communities, that the BNP were in danger of becoming that political alternative, that physical force anti fascism was over and done with as the BNP had withdrawn from march and grow in order to gain political support on the door step, finally that the BNP are the biggest threat to working class communities not the pantomine side show of the NF, the BPP, or EDL or any other short shelf life organisation who just happen to roughly fit what UAF thinks the 'real' threat might look like for their outdated tactics.
> 
> Get with the programme MC5



The BNP are indeed the main threat, doesn't take much to work that out. Meanwhile, some of it's supporters run riot, with some carrying out the threats. Now that's real, particularly for any asian crossing their path whose likely to be verbally abused and worse.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2009)

Spion said:


> And it's been an overwhelming success!
> 
> Aslo, babies and bathwater come to mind. Like zealous converts the former street fighters who went on to be in the IWCA seem to be overcompensating for what they perceive as their former sins



Explain the babies and bathwater analogy . As far as I am aware most of the IWCA aren't 'former street fighters', those that were proved that at the time the tactics were correct and succesful in physically forcing the BNP off the streets. The SWP and ANL Mark 2 simply weren't at the party.

Spion, exactly what are your politics btw?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The BNP are indeed the main threat, doesn't take much to work that out. Meanwhile, some of it's supporters run riot, with some carrying out the threats. Now that's real, particularly for any asian crossing their path whose likely to be verbally abused and worse.



what about the working class MC5 , isn't that the real target for fascism? or is it just the muslims that we should be worried about? If so then why should the white working class want to fight fascism?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Be honest , we were both in the SWP at the time. The CC told us that the war was over.



I discussed this at the time with other members and it was clear the NF were fucked, so the war against the rag bag that were left was indeed over.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> what about the working class MC5 , isn't that the real target for fascism? or is it just the muslims that we should be worried about? If so then why should the white working class want to fight fascism?



I remember Tony Cliff going on about how revolutionaries should act in the here and now. If they saw a woman being abused in the street then it was the role of revolutionaries to intervene and stop it. Similarly, if a Rabbi was being attacked by fascists then again intervene and stop it. If I saw a Muslim being abused, or attacked I would do the same.

Nb: Cliff actually said that if he saw a Rabbi being attacked by a fascist he would beat the fascist, then he would kick the Rabbi.

I understand that he later regretted that remark about kicking the Rabbi.

If you're a socialist, then class is at the heart of your politics, but a socialist of any salt has to intervene to halt the abuse, or injury of anyone regardless of class. Otherwise it becomes the nightmare of Pol Pot.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Your are a lazy cunt in more ways than one:



I work fucking hard mate.


----------



## revlon (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I remember Tony Cliff going on about how revolutionaries should act in the here and now. If they saw a woman being abused in the street then it was the role of revolutionaries to intervene and stop it. Similarly, if a Rabbi was being attacked by fascists then again intervene and stop it. If I saw a Muslim being abused, or attacked I would do the same.
> 
> Nb: Cliff actually said that if he saw a Rabbi being attacked by a fascist he would beat the fascist, then he would kick the Rabbi.
> 
> ...



that's got nothing to do with being a revolutionary, it's to do with being a decent human being. 

But what about the young white lad in the green top who got beaten and robbed by the gang of asians during the first edl demo in brum? Would the fear of being accused of being racist win out over revolutionary duty? 

In fact the only people to intervene at any point was a guy in arsenal shirt and a young woman, both white.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

revlon said:


> that's got nothing to do with being a revolutionary, it's to do with being a decent human being.
> 
> But what about the young white lad in the green top who got beaten and robbed by the gang of asians during the first edl demo in brum? Would the fear of being accused of being racist win out over revolutionary duty?
> 
> In fact the only people to intervene at any point was a guy in arsenal shirt and a young woman, both white.



I've got news for you, not all humans are decent, especially the fascist bullies amongst us.

First of all it wasn't just a "gang of asians" having a go and it's unclear whether he was robbed, or not? Not even clear whether he was involved with the EDL, or not?

If he was involved? Well if you come along to stir shit then expect it back. If he wasn't, then the rabble who came to have go at the "paki's" are ultimately responsible for the ruck that took place.

I have intervened before to stop someone having the shit kicked out of them, so it's possible, if I had been there, that I would have done the same.


----------



## Spion (Sep 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Explain the babies and bathwater analogy . As far as I am aware most of the IWCA aren't 'former street fighters',


 I thought there were a fair number of ex-red action among em, but happy to be corrected if that's not the case.

The baby and bathwater comment was in ref to realising that fascists/the BNP could not be decisively dealt with without a comprehensive working class politics. That much I agree with. What I don't agree with is that there is never a cause to confront physical force racists and fascist. Basic self defence/solidarity indicates to me that that is sometimes necessary. 





The39thStep said:


> Spion, exactly what are your politics btw?


I'm an unafilliated Trotskyist. That's all you need to know. Having a label isn't going to help in discussion, IMO


----------



## purplex (Sep 9, 2009)

STFC said:


> It's Hizb ut-Tahrir, isn't it? If you're opposed to something then you should at least know how to spell it.
> 
> Are they marching on Sunday?



No idea, I lifted it from the CU site. 
If they are marching it sounds like they are going to be met by our protectors, our boys. It makes you proud like a mother doesnt it.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Good lord,...



Allah Akbar!


----------



## sonny61 (Sep 9, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I've got news for you, not all humans are decent, especially the fascist bullies amongst us.
> 
> First of all it wasn't just a "gang of asians" having a go and it's unclear whether he was robbed, or not? Not even clear whether he was involved with the EDL, or not?
> 
> ...



That is a SWP classic. So, if a young white lad on that day had the shit kicked out him and robbed by blacks or Asians. Then it is the EDL's fault?

Don't blame the muggers, for the SWP believe, ''they know not what they do''.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 9, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> That is a SWP classic. So, if a young white lad on that day had the shit kicked out him and robbed by blacks or Asians. Then it is the EDL's fault?
> 
> Don't blame the muggers, for the SWP believe, ''they know not what they do''.



Jesus, it's quoting the bible.

Not likely you'll be swearing any oath on it as a witness to events?


----------



## Bajie (Sep 10, 2009)

STFC said:


> Fair enough, although I've only ever seen it spelt 'my' way before. It's also how it's spelt on their official site.
> 
> So, any truth in the claims that they are marching on Sunday? If so, what's it in aid of?



Aginst this apparently
http://www.ihrc.org.uk/events/9048-the-annual-al-quds-day-demonstration-2009-in-support-of-palestine

If the two groups meet in Trafalger sqaure it is going to kick off for sure


----------



## Bajie (Sep 10, 2009)

Having spent some time having some online disucssions with this lot, I still can not figure them out. There certainly are some NF types there, but they are also generally ridiculed when they pop up. 

The rest seem to be a mixture of english nationalist types who are not quite racist but tend to think too much about about being English and those who just have a problem with Islam extremists, even a a few people who state they are left wing.

As the BNP leadership (in the form of popeye) have already publicly stated that he thinks EDL are a MI5 set up to discredit the BNP and wants nothing to do with them... hmmm, still not sure, whole thing may be an elborate way to stir up ethnic conflict but on the other hand why is being aginst wahhabism and other forms of authortarian Islam instantly make someone a fascist?


----------



## sonny61 (Sep 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Jesus, it's quoting the bible.
> 
> Not likely you'll be swearing any oath on it as a witness to events?



Went right over your head I see.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 10, 2009)

Spion said:


> I thought there were a fair number of ex-red action among em, but happy to be corrected if that's not the case.
> 
> The baby and bathwater comment was in ref to realising that fascists/the BNP could not be decisively dealt with without a comprehensive working class politics. That much I agree with. *What I don't agree with is that there is never a cause to confront physical force racists and fascist. Basic self defence/solidarity indicates to me that that is sometimes necessary. *
> 
> ...



I wouldn't disagree with you on this at all but what I am arguing is that this is a tactical option in what has to be primarily a strategy of building a political alternative to the BNP in working class communities.What UAF and others have is one tactic which when it can't be applied to the BNP they then have to find something that it can be applied to. Sorry they have two , the latter is vote anyone but the BNP and as has been pointed out here they effectivley become the anti fascism of the three main stream parties.

Some one was sharp in the EDL to have a banner saying that UAF was sponsored by the state and supported by Cameron.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 10, 2009)

> And it's been an overwhelming success!



This is the problem no-one seems to analyse. Whatever my problems with the latest IWCA article it did at least acknowledge that without success what is the point.

Now much of the anaylis of anti-fascists is good imv and also stuff about building in communities. I would say there should be more about building in workplaces as well and connecting to community work, but thats another point.

But as everyone can see the methods and tactics developed by the IWCA clearly have had very little success for pro-working class forces and this shows no signs of changing. Unless this is dealt with then we can keep on keeping on, but it won't get us anywhere, even if the UAF, as you rightly say, are not only a dead end but a barrier.


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## Louis MacNeice (Sep 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> But as everyone can see the methods and tactics developed by the IWCA clearly have had very little success for pro-working class forces and this shows no signs of changing. Unless this is dealt with then we can keep on keeping on, but it won't get us anywhere.



I can see they have not been at all popular with the self-identified revolutionary left, which is not at all suprising, seeing as the basic method of the IWCA is so at odds with the vangaurdism of much of that left. However, it seems far from clear that where the IWCA has been able to work itself that it hasn't met with a degree of success which the revolutionary left would be shouting from the roof tops...if only it had been theirs.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Nigel (Sep 10, 2009)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I can see they have not been at all popular with the self-identified revolutionary left, which is not at all suprising, seeing as the basic method of the IWCA is so at odds with the vangaurdism of much of that left. However, it seems far from clear that where the IWCA has been able to work itself that it hasn't met with a degree of success which the revolutionary left would be shouting from the roof tops...if only it had been theirs.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



where for instance?


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 10, 2009)

Bajie said:


> Having spent some time having some online disucssions with this lot, I still can not figure them out. There certainly are some NF types there, but they are also generally ridiculed when they pop up.
> 
> The rest seem to be a mixture of english nationalist types who are not quite racist but tend to think too much about about being English and those who just have a problem with Islam extremists, even a a few people who state they are left wing.
> 
> As the BNP leadership (in the form of popeye) have already publicly stated that he thinks EDL are a MI5 set up to discredit the BNP and wants nothing to do with them... hmmm, still not sure, whole thing may be an elborate way to stir up ethnic conflict but on the other hand why is being aginst wahhabism and other forms of authortarian Islam instantly make someone a fascist?



I guess that the problem with trying to understand this whole EDL thing is that it has seemingly just sprung up from no where and seems to have no defined ideological stance, unlike say the BNP. 

Personally I am beginning to see them as just the very small visable part of a much larger submerged iceberg of 'English' nationalism. Now this nationalist movement has no leaders, nobody with any sort of intellectual capital to speak up for it and has remained largely off the media radar and yet its very real and growing. 

The far right are wary of it because it seems to spurn their ideas of racial purity and ideology and the left have no response to it because they have sacrificed any notion of fighting a class struggle and thrown themselves solidly behind internationalism which they seem to think is all about minority 'rights' and the English certainly dont conform to that. 

So you have a group of working class white lads getting off thier arses and organising protests which seem to confound all sides of the British political spectrum.

Now it could be merely a flash in the pan and much like the election of the 'English' nationalist mayor in Doncaster just put down as one of those things or else it could be the start of something rather dramatic. If Scotland gets around to voting to break away from the Union within the next couple of years, well you have a situation where by who manages to win the hearts and minds of those who might define themselves as English nationalists suddenly matters a lot. 

Aint got a clue how its going to pan out. But given the efforts of many on the left to promote the ideal of multi-culturalism then England could become a very politically fractured country over the course of the next couple of decades. 

And its going to be much more complicated than just a black and white thing and I dont see anybody in the current political make-up either willing, or able, to comprehend this.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I can see they have not been at all popular with the self-identified revolutionary left, which is not at all suprising, seeing as the basic method of the IWCA is so at odds with the vangaurdism of much of that left. However, it seems far from clear that where the IWCA has been able to work itself that it hasn't met with a degree of success which the revolutionary left would be shouting from the roof tops...if only it had been theirs.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


where have you had a degree of success which the revolutionary left would be shouting from the roof tops...if only it had been theirs?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 10, 2009)

Louis you don't have to talk to me about the self-identified revolutionary left, I probably have even less time for them than you. As they are of no consequence to the working class why would we waste our time talking about what they think or do? To be fair though the Socialist Party could argue that it has had more success than the IWCA using local campaigning methods.

You are right that where the IWCA has been able to work that there has been a degree of success. Not sure we should be shouting from the roof tops about it though.

But this isn't my point. For whatever reasons, the instances of these successes has been extremely limited. That shows no sign of changing. If that continues then what good are having the right method and outlook if it doesn't lead to any success? Should we just keep on keeping on regardless of whether we are getting anywhere or not?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 10, 2009)

> Personally I am beginning to see them as just the very small visable part of a much larger submerged iceberg of 'English' nationalism. Now this nationalist movement has no leaders, nobody with any sort of intellectual capital to speak up for it and has remained largely off the media radar and yet its very real and growing.



either that or the dying roar of the dragon in a world where nationalism is increasingly irrelevent


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> An historical fact.
> 
> In 1979/1980 thousands left the NF, later exacerbated by the split between the Tyndallites. During the eighties the NF split and re-split whilst the BNP just about held together during the 1980's, so no lie.



The 'lie' is of course in the pretence that the ten's of thousands or NF supporters were converted to multiculturalism or simply evaporated. In fact the electoral defeat of the NF meant it was replaced by more extreme direct action fascists like the BM, Blood&Honour, C18. 

They had a malign influence in the working class music scene and the football terraces. The massed ranks of supporters sieg-heiling at places like West Ham was not uncommon. Race attacks spiralled. 

Faced with such untrammelled aggression what did the SWP leadership do? It told its members to abandon pitches to the NF. It ordered them to turn the other cheek. It swiftly closed the ANL down and walked by on the other side. 

The ethnic minorities were on their own.


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## Spion (Sep 10, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> I wouldn't disagree with you on this at all but what I am arguing is that this is a tactical option in what has to be primarily a strategy of building a political alternative to the BNP in working class communities.


Tactical it may be, optional it isn't. ('it' being confronting racists and fascists)


----------



## Spion (Sep 10, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> The 'lie' is of course in the pretence that the ten's of thousands or NF supporters were converted to multiculturalism or simply evaporated. In fact the electoral defeat of the NF meant it was replaced by more extreme direct action fascists like the BM, Blood&Honour, C18.
> 
> They had a malign influence in the working class music scene and the football terraces. The massed ranks of supporters sieg-heiling at places like West Ham was not uncommon. Race attacks spiralled.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's criminal. As is leaving ethnic minorities on their own when people like the EDL organise on the streets of UK towns and cities


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 10, 2009)

Agree with this.

Also the fact is that for all their talk of no platform it is a total myth with the SWP in the here and now.

They have a largely student and middle class membership who would have no idea of how to physically confront the fascists. Quite simply most of the membership of the SWP can't fight. This isn't an insult, it's just a fact. If the SWP members were actually pitted against BNP security or even the EDL they would get battered.

Someone above said that no platform should be a tactic in a much wider strategy of giving a political alternative and I couldn't agree more. However what the ANL do is on one hand say vote anyone but BNP and bolster the mainstream parties who are causing the very problems they oppose. On the other hand they fetishise no platform while in reality having no ability to actually use that tactic anyway.

However this doesn't take away from the fact that other methods of going about things being discussed aren't getting anywhere either.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Louis you don't have to talk to me about the self-identified revolutionary left, I probably have even less time for them than you. As they are of no consequence to the working class why would we waste our time talking about what they think or do? To be fair though the Socialist Party could argue that it has had more success than the IWCA using local campaigning methods.
> 
> You are right that where the IWCA has been able to work that there has been a degree of success. Not sure we should be shouting from the roof tops about it though.
> 
> But this isn't my point. For whatever reasons, the instances of these successes has been extremely limited. That shows no sign of changing. If that continues then what good are having the right method and outlook if it doesn't lead to any success? Should we just keep on keeping on regardless of whether we are getting anywhere or not?



The core IWCA strategy is all about orientating to the working class proper. This success of this strategy considering the resources available to it is unprecedented - in the areas where the strategy has been applied. 

The focus of the IWCA though limited to a small number of pilot schemes told a far bigger story. But it is not one many of the left want to hear about much less emulate. 

The BNP was set up in 1982. It switched to an overt electoral strategy in 1994. It took eight years for it to have single councillor elected.

'Should be just keep on regardless of whether we are getting anywhere or not?' Griffin would have been asked on a weekly basis. 'There is no alternative' would have been his answer. 

So what sould the Left do? Abandon the working class to the far-right or adopt the core IWCA strategy and apply it on a national basis?


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## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Agree with this.
> 
> Also the fact is that for all their talk of no platform it is a total myth with the SWP in the here and now.
> 
> ...



beered up hoolies are not Ninjas


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## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 10, 2009)

Joe I don't disagree with what you're saying. But the fact remains that whatever the reasons are the IWCA strategy isn't spreading and shows no sign of doing so.

It's not like we haven't been trying for years.

All we can do is keep trying, but at the moment the signs aren't good.

The BNP also have the huge advantage of much of their agenda and fake appeal being put forward by the mainstream media. We have no such luxury.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 10, 2009)

Didn't say they were ninjas, but the fact is that the SWP membership is anything but a fighting force. There is no point them pretending otherwise.


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## audiotech (Sep 10, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> The 'lie' is of course in the pretence that the ten's of thousands or NF supporters were converted to multiculturalism or simply evaporated. In fact the electoral defeat of the NF meant it was replaced by more extreme direct action fascists like the BM, Blood&Honour, C18.
> 
> They had a malign influence in the working class music scene and the football terraces. The massed ranks of supporters sieg-heiling at places like West Ham was not uncommon. Race attacks spiralled.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with the preamble, but my experience with the SWP is somewhat different to someone looking at it from the outside.

In the early eighties it was very weak membership wise. 1978 had been it's low point in that respect. A number of experienced good comrades had left the organisation, or were expelled.

Where I was the SWP did still involve themselves in anti-fascism during the bonehead period. I wasn't there, but I was told that some blood and honour trophy had been captured. In my case, I remember organising a couple of members to join me in protecting the home of an Asian family who felt under threat of attack. Fortunately, it didn't happen, but I recall NF graffiti near the family home. Don't forget too there were still large anl carnivals in 1981 the SWP were involved with.

The SWP later got involved in the usual campaigns, abortion, Ireland, lesbian and gay rights and student work. I also recall, steel workers strike, wapping, the miners strike, for a full year, poll tax (I was involved in the poll tax, but had more, or less, left the organisation by the time it ended) and then came along ANL mk2, which thankfully I had nothing to do with.

This was how it was on the ground where I was. I don't recognise your description, but understand clearly why you would put it that way.


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## Stoat Boy (Sep 10, 2009)

smokedout said:


> either that or the dying roar of the dragon in a world where nationalism is increasingly irrelevent




Its possible. But then what comes after the nation state ? If people no longer identify themselves as English or French or what ever what then ?

Within Islam you have this notion of the Umma which is used by some to justify the actions of say British born Muslims of Pakistani origin based on the actions of the British state that killed Iraqi Muslims. Or even of Palastinians.

And if that is deemed an acceptable state of affairs and being allowed to make up part of British muliticultrualism surely the next logical step would be for white English people to start identifying themselves more with white German people based on a shared European identity and racial origin. Sure you might point to the rise of the UKIP to show that English nationalism is still alive and kicking but if you keep on kicking at the pillars of what it means to be English people are still going to want to identify with something.  

Those on the left cannot champion nationalist causes such as those in Tibet or Ireland and then decry the growth of nationalist sentiments in England.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Went right over your head I see.



Yeah, an angel took it you tool.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Joe I don't disagree with what you're saying. But the fact remains that whatever the reasons are the IWCA strategy isn't spreading and shows no sign of doing so.
> 
> It's not like we haven't been trying for years.
> 
> ...


I actually agree that the IWCA, should keep are working hard at their strategy.  But I think you make a very strong point at the end there.  We cannot compete in a straight electoral fight, in the current ideological situation.  With the current state of the class conflict, there is no tangible examples, of how strong the working class can be.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Those on the left cannot champion nationalist causes such as those in Tibet or Ireland and then decry the growth of nationalist sentiments in England.



The 'National Question' is a biggy and calls for a new thread.


----------



## STFC (Sep 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Its possible. But then what comes after the nation state ? If people no longer identify themselves as English or French or what ever what then ?
> 
> Within Islam you have this notion of the Umma which is used by some to justify the actions of say British born Muslims of Pakistani origin based on the actions of the British state that killed Iraqi Muslims. Or even of Palastinians.
> 
> ...



English nationalism is definitely on the increase, whether it's a growing awareness of St George's Day or calls for an English parliament etc. I don't see people apart from those on the extreme right identifying with other Europeans along racial lines though.

I remember the BNP proclaiming their support of Denmark at a tournament England were playing in, as they were the only side made up of all white players. Your average Englishman in the street would never go along with something so ridiculous. Our black players are considered no less English than the white ones, except to a minority of idiots who would get shouted down in an instant.


----------



## STFC (Sep 10, 2009)

I also remember someone from the SWP saying people should support anyone but England, it may even have been the same tournament. That's just as ridiculous as the BNP's stance.


----------



## Sue (Sep 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Joe I don't disagree with what you're saying. But the fact remains that whatever the reasons are the IWCA strategy isn't spreading and shows no sign of doing so.
> 
> It's not like we haven't been trying for years.



We? Really?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 10, 2009)

Why do you say we, really? I suspect we have been dong much of the same activities, and supporting a similar method.

Just because I'm not seeing many or any positive signs of the IWCA type approach spreading doesn't mean I don't try myself.

What I'm saying is just reality.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 10, 2009)

STFC said:


> I also remember someone from the SWP saying people should support anyone but England, it may even have been the same tournament. That's just as ridiculous as the BNP'S stance.



Yep, 'revolutionary defeatism' for the dumb.


----------



## Sue (Sep 10, 2009)

Does that mean it's not working where you are? Why do you think that is?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 10, 2009)

It it of note that the most significant anti-capitalist actions this year have come from Climate Camp, not the overtly orthodox left?

The rhetoric of the orthodox left is just too niche. Im not going to get into a blame game about that, but it is in stark contrast to the simplistic populist narrative of the right.


----------



## Sue (Sep 10, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It it of note that the most significant anti-capitalist actions this year have come from Climate Camp, not the overtly orthodox left?



What were they? Seemed to me more an exercise in making people feel like they'd done something.


----------



## trevhagl (Sep 10, 2009)

STFC said:


> I also remember someone from the SWP saying people should support anyone but England, it may even have been the same tournament. That's just as ridiculous as the BNP's stance.




i guess all movements attract a certain percentage of freaks..


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 10, 2009)

Sue said:


> What were they? Seemed to me more an exercise in making people feel like they'd done something.



Deriding CC is fine, but in doing so one would only be further deriding events of even smaller import.

Scoffing is a doddle, but there was a sense at Blackheath of constructive broad based movement building and theorising that may yet get somewhere. I hope so, because we are running out of time. Climate Camps are now springing up worldwide and CC is NVDA foccused ahead of anything else: thus in theory at least the antithesis of "making people feel like they'd done something".

Critique is fine, and I'm sures yours would be welcome at national gatherings or elsewhere.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

Again, what were these significant anti-capitalist actions? And in what way 'significant? In what way 'anti-capitalist'?


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Deriding CC is fine...
> Scoffing is a doddle...
> Critique is fine...



Nice of you to allow others that freedom.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Again, what were these significant anti-capitalist actions? And in what way 'significant? In what way 'anti-capitalist'?



Confronting the banks on April 1st, exposing the criminal activities of the police through a huge amount of legal work, establishing camps in Wales and Scotland, a camp in London attended by thousands from across the green/red/black spectrum. A mass action yet to come.

yes, more direct things have taken place: Vestas, Lewisham Bridge etc. but much of their broad support comes from the same quarters as Climate Camp.

If this strikes you as pitiful, and it might, then it follows that the orthodox left has been more pitiful.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Confronting the banks on April 1st, exposing the criminal activities of the police through a huge amount of legal work, establishing camps in Wales and Scotland, a camp in London attended by thousands from across the green/red/black spectrum. A mass action yet to come.
> 
> yes, more direct things have taken place: Vestas, Lewisham Bridge etc. but much of their broad support comes from the same quarters as Climate Camp.
> 
> If this strikes you as pitiful, and it might, then it follows that the orthodox left has been more pitiful.



Don't put words in my mouth weirdo. You've not listed anything either signifgcant or anti-capitalist as far as i can see, in fact, you're trying to backpeddle and claim more significant things for CC.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Don't put words in my mouth weirdo.



Captain Doublethink is having a busy day I see.

I used the word "if" - it is a conditional tense, not putting words in your mouth. But you have twice attributed attitudes to be that are unfounded.

Do you think your constant sneering is any kind of vehicle for advancing an argument?

Out of interest what do you think are the most significant current actions and campaigns on the left?

John McDonnell named Climate Camp as the most significant movement in the UK today. Do you differ, what would you nominate instead?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

No, hang on - doublethink is you, from out of nowhere, saying that _if_ i think something is _pitiful_ etc when i've neither used the word pitiful nor passed any comment even close to it. 

John McDonnell eh? Woo! hoo! 

I'm not interested in handing out gold stars to anyone right now either. No one has really earned them


----------



## smokedout (Sep 10, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Confronting the banks on April 1st, exposing the criminal activities of the police through a huge amount of legal work, establishing camps in Wales and Scotland, a camp in London attended by thousands from across the green/red/black spectrum. A mass action yet to come.



the climate campers didnt confront the banks, they pitched up outside the carbon exchange - the theatrics down the road was organised by other people and the police were largely exposed by the guardian and fitwatch



> yes, more direct things have taken place: Vestas, Lewisham Bridge etc.



Vestas maybe, but i didnt see any climate campers involved in lewisham bridge

as to blackheath i saw a bunch of largely posh kids have a bit of a jamboree in one of the poshest areas of london, it wasnt anti-capitalist, it wasnt  politics, it wasnt even fun


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> No, hang on - doublethink is you, from out of nowhere, saying that _if_ i think something is _pitiful_ etc when i've neither used the word pitiful nor passed any comment even close to it.
> 
> John McDonnell eh? Woo! hoo!
> 
> I'm not interested in handing out gold stars to anyone right now either. No one has really earned them



Using the conditional tense doesnt mean putting words in your cakehole.

Your last sentence is fair comment. How would you remedy it?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 10, 2009)

smokedout said:


> the climate campers didnt confront the banks, they pitched up outside the carbon exchange - the theatrics down the road was organised by other people and the police were largely exposed by the guardian and fitwatch
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, you are right that Meltdown is a different org, but carbon trading will still be mediated by capitalists and is very much part of the problem.

I think your analysis of the social background of CC attendees is simplistic, but nonetheless a persons class need have little bearing on their politics. Perhaps you'd have scoffed at Engles and Marx in the same way. Narrow bigotry I'm afraid. I doubt many of the EDL or BNP are "posh" for what it's worth.

To be honest I think what we have been discussing in recent posts only points to the fact that the broad left is still in a rather parlous state.

CC is the most prolific opponent to business as usual and it may not add up to much. That's a problem for all of us - deriding people on the basis that they may be "posh" isn't exactly going to help.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Yep, 'revolutionary defeatism' for the dumb.


lol


----------



## smokedout (Sep 10, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I think your analysis of the social background of CC attendees is simplistic, but nonetheless a persons class need have little bearing on their politics. Perhaps you'd have scoffed at Engles and Marx in the same way. Narrow bigotry I'm afraid. I doubt many of the EDL or BNP are "posh" for what it's worth.



i like to think id have scoffed at engels for being posh, the difference was though that marx and engels did politics, the climate campers dont

they do vague lifestylism, liberal panicking and some kind of weird protestant conservatism


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 10, 2009)

smokedout said:


> i like to think id have scoffed at engels for being posh, the difference was though that marx and engels did politics, the climate campers dont
> 
> they do vague lifestylism, liberal panicking and some kind of weird protestant conservatism



The legal team has brougt about significant, if temporary, changes in police behaviour.

Show me another organisation that has kept police off site through struggle and I'll be impressed.

"lifestylism" is fine if it means genuine reduced impact, in CC case it probably does. CC is vegan - a more meaningful political statement than hours of leftist naval gazing and class-fetish tracts.

"liberal panic" I'll give you in part.

"conservatism" - well what is more conservative than conservation? 

Obviously, SmokedOuts' tips on how to do it all better are most welcome.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 10, 2009)

blow shit up 

(obv i dont mean this, blowing shit up is wrong, illegal and dangerous)


----------



## smokedout (Sep 10, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> TCC is vegan - a more meaningful political statement than hours of leftist naval gazing and class-fetish tracts.



that is possibly one of the most stupid things anyone has ever said

have a medal from stalin


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## trevhagl (Sep 10, 2009)

unlike Urban to be secretarian and fight people who should be on the same side !!!


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 10, 2009)

Sue as I said on the other thread though it's not about what I do or where I am. I was just saying I'm not sure why you have made comment about me using the word we.

Whatever I do or don't do, whatever the successes or failures of where live it is of little significance. Do you ask the question of every other IWCA supporter on here?

The point is that the IWCA method, whether by the label or otherwise, has achieved extremely limited successes and that shows no sign of changing. It is something that is a  huge problem and no-one seems to know how to address that other than sayiing do more of the same.

The comparisons with the BNP using a community based method aren't simple either as we are working on different terrains. The whole of the media and the establishment is on their side on many questions.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

so on topic, fair account?;

Last Saturday afternoon began like any other in Birmingham’s Victoria Street. 

Local people were making their way to the shops. Kids were playing on a pretend beach while their older brothers and sisters gazed at a fighter jet, part of an air force display.

But it was not an ordinary Saturday afternoon – the anti-Muslim English Defence League (EDL) was threatening to march through the city.

The police had said that the EDL was not going to be allowed anywhere near the city centre.

But the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) and some local youth groups decided to call a counter-demonstration and celebrate multi-racial Birmingham, just in case the EDL tried to march.

At about 2.30pm a group of 30 SWP supporters and young Asian people met to set up the counter protest, which was due to start half an hour later.

Within minutes over 100 EDL marchers, escorted by four or five police officers, marched straight towards it. They were chanting “Muslims out” and carrying banners saying “No more mosques”.

Emblazoned

The EDL tries to claim it has no links with the Nazi British National Party (BNP). 

Yet well-known BNP supporters were seen on the EDL protest and one of the EDL’s key organisers, Chris Renton, is a leading BNP activist from Weston-super-Mare.

One of their thugs in Birmingham on Saturday was wearing a T-shirt emblazoned with the words “Zyklon B”, the name of the gas that was used in Nazi death camps to murder millions of Jews during the Holocaust. 

The EDL tried to march down the high street, abusing passers by and throwing bottles at the Asian youths. 

A series of running protests and skirmishes with the EDL followed. By 3pm between 400 and 500 anti-racist protesters had gathered in two parts of the city centre. They chanted “Black, white, Asian and Jew – there are more of us than you” and “Nazi scum out of Brum”. 

The protesters kept the EDL thugs pinned behind police lines and locked inside a pub for over two hours. 

Eventually the police rounded up the racists and put them on two “special buses”. 

They allowed one bus to drive to Lancaster Circus, over a mile from the city centre, where the EDL held a rally in an underground subway. 

The other bus was literally sent to Coventry. 

We don’t usually quote racists in Socialist Worker, but on this occasion we will make an exception. 

One EDL supporter posted on a website noticeboard: “We were kept on that bus for over five hours. We were then released at half one in the morning – no buses, no trains – and we had to wait five hours in the freezing cold for the first train out of Coventry.”

And over 70 of them were charged and fined £80 each for smashing up the bus.

Since the protest the EDL has said that its supporters will not march in Birmingham again because the “police will not protect them”.

Saturday was a major victory for anti-fascists. But the EDL will try to make a comeback. 

It has already announced plans to protest against a mosque in Harrow and for another demonstration in Luton.

But the experience in Birmingham shows the best way to beat them


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

trevhagl said:


> unlike Urban to be secretarian and fight people who should be on the same side !!!


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

Can you attribute articles to those that wrote them please - that's twice today. On what basis are you saying this account from Martin Smith is fair? Were you there? Did you witness the events he did?


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## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Can you attribute articles to those that wrote them please - that's twice today. On what basis are you saying this account from Martin Smith is fair? Were you there? Did you witness the events he did?


twice? me? what?

was a question.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

Yes, i see you just edited in a question mark.


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, i see you just edited in a question mark.


yup, cus you pointed out my mistake. It's nice to have my own personal little spell checker.

so where else did i unatribute mate.


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> yup, cus you pointed out my mistake. It's nice to have my own personal little spell checker.
> 
> so where else did i unatribute mate.



The middle section of this post. It's not particularly important, it's just annoying - this thread's currently OT enough without going into it.


----------



## treelover (Sep 10, 2009)

> They chanted “Black, white, Asian and Jew – there are more of us than you” and “Nazi scum out of Brum”.





Don't you mean the SWP hectored people with their megaphones to chant that first slogan, god they are so transparent...


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 10, 2009)

treelover - Did you find the source that I asked you to find/prove, earlier in the thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

Mohammed Naseem's Islamic Party website includes writings by the notorious fascist, homophobic and anti-semitic conspiracy loon Alexander Baron (The Organised Homosexual Movement: Its Methods And Its Goals) - they also have their own writings in this vein The unhappy search for the “gay” Muslim. (Ip would also know, being, of course, a big Searchlight fan, that Baron twice took  Searchlight  to court for defamation and won, and that these cases started the movement for radical bookshops to refuse to stock the magazine - housemans (being involved in the court case for stocking the thing) and green leaf in bristol to the fore.) Here's one of his poems:

A good year was 1984, 
With Bhopal, Ethiopia and more, 
Like the miners on strike, 
And the gay man and dike 
Both dying of AIDS by the score.

Many many examples of 911 conspiracy in their publications as well - for example, scenario 4 from his journals who did it? section



> Scenario four is a warning shot fired at the USA by its so-called ally, Israel, now with an experience terrorist, Ariel Sharon, at its helm, who has openly boasted that Israel now runs America and admitted that he wouldn't even mind blowing up a synagogue or two if it furthered his objectives. Israel could have wanted to drive home the message to the United States, that their support for an independent Palestinian state would not be tolerated. It could have been a way of forcing America's hand to join into Israel's global war against Islam and Muslims. The Israeli intelligence service, Mossad, whose motto is "By way of deception", has done it many times before.



His support for 7/7 conspiracy is well known, as is his attempt to sucker the poster Jazzz from this site and the holocuast denier Nick Kollerstrom into a conspiracy that the british security services were behind (with mossad) the attack and abandoned attempts to do the same in brum when discovered by one of his flock. 

All been done on here numerous times before. Charming feller i'm sure though.


----------



## Spion (Sep 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> Don't you mean the SWP hectored people with their megaphones to chant that first slogan, god they are so transparent...


well, at least they did something when a bunch of bottle throwing chanting racists turned up on the street. At least they don't sit aournd moping at home like some depression case


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 10, 2009)

treelover's alleged 'paraphrase' from Naseem was about Jews, not about orthodox religion being against homosexuals (orthodox Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all against). I'm aware Naseem has a non-liberal view of homosexuality, and indulged in early denial of 7/7 and believed it was a CT plot/circulated a CT crank's video.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> treelover's 'paraphrase' from Naseem was about Jews, not about orthodox religion being against homosexuals (orthodox Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all against).



Did you only read the first bit or something?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> While cautious about this article , this is the Mo Naseem who claimed that 911 'was caused by the Jews'



Can you provide a source for this please.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Did you only read the first bit or something?



Thanks, I did ask treelover already.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I totally agree with the preamble, but my experience with the SWP is somewhat different to someone looking at it from the outside.
> 
> In the early eighties it was very weak membership wise. 1978 had been it's low point in that respect. A number of experienced good comrades had left the organisation, or were expelled.
> 
> ...



As early as 1980 the SWP/ANL were running scared of the BM. For example marching away from them in Oxford hiding in a semi cul-de-sac in London while 800 marched past unmolested. As for the 'trophy hunting episode' you have to supply more details before I'd give it any credence whatsoever as it was a matter of reflex to appropriate the work of others from 1980 onwards.


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## TremulousTetra (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> The middle section of this post. It's not particularly important, it's just annoying - this thread's currently OT enough without going into it.


fucking hell butch, get a life.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 10, 2009)

treelover said:


> While cautious about this article , this is the Mo Naseem who claimed that 911 'was caused by the Jews' and was a big funder of Respect, choose your allies wisely, mmmm





butchersapron said:


> Did you only read the first bit or something?



Several  CT-inspired theories given: 

Russia, China, Domestic US terrorism, inside US govt. job to provide reason for 'revenge' attack, op. by Israel to warn US that their support for independent Palestinian state not tolerated, Muslim/third world masterminded attacks. 

Nowhere can I see any claim that 911 was 'caused by Jews'.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2009)

That's because you don't have eyes to see - he's even pimping _the jews were warned about 911_ story as fact. That's enough for me. Given that treelover was paraphrasing a quote _of mine_ about naseem and that you've had your lot from me on this you can continue your desperate efforts if you like - but without me.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

cantsin said:


> you're a messed up little  prick...
> 
> you think  "... * is a an appropriate response to this :
> 
> "If that's what they are then the question is, what is it that makes them think that it's a good idea to go rucking with pakis in the centre of brum now and why do they seem to expect support?"


 lolraof .. soft lad .. i double posted re another post and deleted the first one  ok??  

the answer to the above would be ' i have no idea but i think it would be something to do with them being football hoooooligans and liking a row with whoever wants a row back"


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Why do you say we, really? I suspect we have been dong much of the same activities, and supporting a similar method.
> 
> Just because I'm not seeing many or any positive signs of the IWCA type approach spreading doesn't mean I don't try myself.
> 
> What I'm saying is just reality.




Once again you couldn't possibly attempt it yourself - so fuck knows what you've actually been doing!? 


And at the risk of repeating myself, the IWCA strategy is all about orientating directly to the working class. Why? Because there is no other motor for progressive social change. Employing Muslims as a surrogate or replacement is quite simply reactionary. And if Respect hadn't imploded so early would have played into the hands of the BNP. 

As the IWCA indicated after the June elections it is important to seperate out the IWCA as a 'party' from the strategy it has pioneered. The former has been frail from the outset, while the latter remains robust. 

It has proved it's potential in spades. A six strong activist branch in Havering took just under 5,000 votes across two wards. In the same election by comparison the SLP took just 10,000 votes across the entire country. 

Clearly the IWCA approach is about doing things differently. 

And contrary to what you said in an earlier post the SP has still not managed anthing like it - which is to say build up popular support from a_ standing start_ in the poorest of working class wards. 



The ability to do this is critical as the wholescale deviation from the grassroots class truggle some 40 years ago left little or no legacy behind. Self-evidently the IWCA cannot on its own compete with an organisation like the BNP. 

So there is no point in ploughing a lone furrow. 

As indicated in the IWCA statement it is now looking for a way that will allow the like-minded to also step up to the plate.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I thought Football Casuals were a bunch of football-loving, well-dressed blokes who lived for the match ... blokes that a girl could rely upon to do the right thing (unless their team happened to be playing that day) ... blokes who bothered more about the colour of your shirt than the colour of your skin ... blokes who'd rib you senseless for not supporting the same team as them ... blokes who mostly had to have the latest club shirt (but not without a moan about the price)


 which i guess is why you are so off the pace on this thread


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> That's because you don't have eyes to see - he's even pimping _the jews were warned about 911_ story as fact. That's enough for me. Given that treelover was paraphrasing a quote _of mine_ about naseem and that you've had your lot from me on this you can continue your desperate efforts if you like - but without me.



Oy - thanks for making it clearer - no need to get shirty 

I can see the 'Jews were warned' reference within the 4th scenario now...missed that on the first glance, because I only skimmed it and got bored after the nth rendition of Mossad psyops. He's not exclusively pinning all his belief into this one scenario, and he does give a Muslims done it scenario too, although with zilch expansion, unlike the Israel-scenario. Yes, it's offensive to write/believe (against the reality) that Jews working at the WTC were warned about 911, and really, really offensive that a leading British Muslim has used/repeated US right-wing patriot antisemitic propaganda to avoid facing socio-political realities.  

It's a sign of denial and desparate avoidance of truth for Naseem to indulge in speculation when there's overwhelming proof that Saudi citizens masterminded 9/11  Even worse since Naseem is in a position of power, people rely on him to be wise - and he's not been wise at all over 9/11 and 7/7 - he's allowed himself to be influenced by some racists from USA, and in turn, influenced British Muslims wrongly.


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## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

revlon said:


> Interesting. Edl might have dipped out of birmingham but casuals united are promising to return. Seems a definable seperation between the 2 groups is emerging.
> 
> 
> http://casualsunited.webs.com/


 

qoute, with Eton Rifles playing in the background .. 

" .. Mate, you have to realise, British people are rising up after being treated like shit in their own country for 30 years, and part of that shit treatment is left wing mugs in the press twisting our words and calling anyone patriotic "racist" or "fascist", you made your bed now lie in it. You snapped some little NF mug "seig heiling" at an EDL demo, big deal, doesnt prove anything, those kind of idiots will always try and tag along with us."

and what song have they got playing?? Eton Rifles


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> They're the fucking fash! I don't care what bollocks the facebook groups paint it out to be. It's the politics of the hooligans, it's the 70s' NF spunked into the information age.



so you watched the whole of that video? so what was fash in the the interviews with Trevor kelway and Joel Titus?  and you saw all the placards, so tell me why would a fascist group have placards that say "black and white unite" " we are not racist" " we are not the bnp" etc etc

( i have an idea but what is yours)


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Whar are the politics of hooligans? Ironically when some posters have identified those who are involved in anti social behaviour , crime and anti working class activities within working class communities there has been the usual liberal left cry of 'don't divide the working class' or blame the govt.
> 
> The EDL is a diversion , a handy diversion for those desperate to pin the tail on any  pantomine fash it can find.The real threat from  the BNP but of course engaging in defaating them would require building a political alternative , something that 'anti fascism' doesn't and cannot do.


 yep


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## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> it's fucking mystifying innit. c66 and d02 combined approaches appears to be to undermine this mob by, err, repeatedly posting links to their dodgy vids and unexpurgated rantings. which is a bit strange to say the least.


 paulie judging from the utterly ill informed bollox by many on here it is the least I can do and btw searchlight has been publicising the activities of the far right for decades and i don't hear anyone slag them


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## invisibleplanet (Sep 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> which i guess is why you are so off the pace on this thread



I am actually fully aware of the difference between Football Casuals and Casuals United - thanks. I was having a lighthearted moment, on a day when I was feeling very mischievous and took no thread I wrote in seriously


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## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

they got a book out now too 

http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/who-are-casuals-united/7634958


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## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I am actually fully aware of the difference between Football Casuals and Casuals United - thanks. I was having a lighthearted moment, on a day when I was feeling very mischievous and took no thread I wrote in seriously


 judging from some of your previous comments i has hard to tell but fair play, i apologise for misjudging


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> It's the way  in Luton, during a two minutes silence for "our troops" shouting "fucking pakis", that gives me some insight in what the game is with this mob.



two comments 
1) they are almost all just f'ing kids 
2) note Weston BNP member Chris Renton at 4.00 ( didn't see 'Lionheart' Paul Ray but think he was organiser) 
3) the skinheads at 5.22 are nazis and were in Brum in august but walked away in disgust from the EDL demo at the anti-nazi anti fascist placards
4) can anyone name the big guy with glasses at 7.04?? .. he crops up in differrent demos ( i think) 

conclusion? - football and nationalism is more of a laugh than leftism


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

Bajie said:


> Having spent some time having some online disucssions with this lot, I still can not figure them out. There certainly are some NF types there, but they are also generally ridiculed when they pop up.
> 
> The rest seem to be a mixture of english nationalist types who are not quite racist but tend to think too much about about being English and those who just have a problem with Islam extremists, even a a few people who state they are left wing.
> 
> As the BNP leadership (in the form of popeye) have already publicly stated that he thinks EDL are a MI5 set up to discredit the BNP and wants nothing to do with them... hmmm, still not sure, whole thing may be an elborate way to stir up ethnic conflict but on the other hand why is being aginst wahhabism and other forms of authortarian Islam instantly make someone a fascist?


 yup


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> I guess that the problem with trying to understand this whole EDL thing is that it has seemingly just sprung up from no where and seems to have no defined ideological stance, unlike say the BNP.
> 
> Personally I am beginning to see them as just the very small visable part of a much larger submerged iceberg of 'English' nationalism. Now this nationalist movement has no leaders, nobody with any sort of intellectual capital to speak up for it and has remained largely off the media radar and yet its very real and growing.
> 
> ...



good post except EDL etc has NOT sprung from nowhere at all .. it has been bloody obvious to many of us for a long long time that this was coming, hence the creation of IWCA from AFA/RA and the turn of many @s  like me ( well sort of @) to community politics instead of the usual @ bullshit 

 the liberal left has almost utterly neglected the w/c particulalry the unorganised w/c ( now the majority) and worse, regards them as scum ( as Elaine Heffernan so clealry stated) and now it is coming back to haunt us


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so on topic, fair account?;
> 
> .....Saturday was a major victory for anti-fascists. .. But the experience in Birmingham shows the best way to beat them



 thats what they said last time .. and the time before .. and the time before that .. and every time the BNP vote goes up and up and up .. watch the Luton vid that MC posted and show me where ordinary kids are being drawn into leftwing activity like that?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 10, 2009)

update .. and what is the 13th sept event in london?  eta ok thats the trafalger square al quds thing 

"WEBSITE AND OFFICIAL FORUM
www.englishdefenceleague.org

Polo shirts available via merchandise button on website, You can have your town/city division printed on for same price.

UPCOMING EVENTS

11TH SEPT HARROW (NON EDL EVENT)
13TH SEPT LONDON (MARCH FOR ENGLAND EVENT)
10th OCT MANCHESTER (EDL EVENT)
31ST OCT LEEDS (EDL EVENT)


It has been pointed out to me that some people in this group have been abusing people because of their skin colour, or religion. We are NOT here to turn people against Islam, just Islamic Extremists.
Anyone who cannot control their feelings and feels the need to write insulting comments to people with different beliefs, or skin colour as their own are not welcome, and will be deleted without warning.
I would like to remind people that some of the founder members of the EDL are Mixed Race. If you were looking for a "White Supremacy group, or an "Anti-Islam" group, keep looking as this is NOT for you.
Trevor."


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> update .. and what is the 13th sept event in london?  eta ok thats the trafalger square al quds thing
> 
> "WEBSITE AND OFFICIAL FORUM
> www.englishdefenceleague.org
> ...



I assume they doth protest too much?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 11, 2009)

Joe you have no idea what I have done or haven't done, or what community campaigns I've helped to build up. But I've no intention of going down that road as focusing on an individual has little benefit.

I know about the IWCA strategy I've supported it for years now. Everything you have said I'm already aware of.

I agree that in a few areas the potential has been shown. I also have no wish to put the Socialist Party as an example of what to do, maybe I gave them too much credit.

I agree that others need to step up to the plate. But there are a few if any signs of this happening. That's just the way it is right now. The question is what can be done about it and at the moment I don't see anyone giving any answers other than more of the same and still don't see things changing.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 11, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Joe you have no idea what I have done or haven't done, or what community campaigns I've helped to build up. But I've no intention of going down that road as focusing on an individual has little benefit.
> 
> I know about the IWCA strategy I've supported it for years now. Everything you have said I'm already aware of.
> 
> ...




Well its certainly past the point where it will happen spontaneously that's for sure. So it has to be planned. Simple as that.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> Tactical it may be, optional it isn't. ('it' being confronting racists and fascists)



Impressive slogan but in reality even the SWP and the other stop clocked trots have in the past either tactically decided not to confront or have just abstained from confronting.

Do you really think that 'confronting' the EDL is the big issue of the day?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 11, 2009)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so on topic, fair account?;
> 
> Last Saturday afternoon began like any other in Birmingham’s Victoria Street.
> 
> ...



It was the Police who kept them on the bus not the Walmington on Sea remake of Cable Street. Apparently the reason for the Police response re the bus was that one of EDL shoved a copper .


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 3) the skinheads at 5.22 are nazis and were in Brum in august but walked away in disgust from the EDL demo at the anti-nazi anti fascist placards



And this is what I think many on the left are missing. Yes, as things stand at the moment the EDL has been attracting some support from the far-right but its not hanging around. As I understand it at this Birmingham demo some people from the EDL were waving an Israeli flag and making pro-Israel comments which is hardly going to endear them to the far-right. 

Now this whole EDL thing could just be the flavour of the month and disapear but to just write them off as being just another branch of the far-right is pure laziness on behalf of many. 

I have long suspected that organisations such as the UAF are more about those involved celebrating their own anti-racist credentials rather than a serious attempt to halt the growth of the BNP and whilst they might succeed in hounding the EDL off the streets the stresses and strains which I believe lay beneath this groups appearance are going to remain and will emerge again.


----------



## Silver_Fox (Sep 11, 2009)

Most people on here seem critical of UAF and rightly so. Also it seems a clear a political alternative needs to be built. But what do people on here like durutti, butchersapron, 39th step etc think we should do about the EDF demonstrations?

They seem able to provoke violence whether or not the left is present. So should such demonstrations be ignored even if violence is flaring between the EDF and minority communities?


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

The problem is the EDL is that they are a confusing mesh of people at the moment with no clear political agenda or direction.

And right now the UAF is looking very foolish branding them as a BNP front when the BNP wants nothing to do with them. The BNP member involvement is seperate and does not make EDL a BNP organisation, it does however make something not right about them.

The UAF/SWP also seems to be very knee jerk about any negative campaigning aginst the muslim religion, because they are both self serving organisations looking to build their power & member base.

But what to do about the EDL right now.. nothing, there is nothing wrong about saying religion is stupid. The cops regard them as similar to football hoolies and treat them accordingly, so in terms of protests there is no great risk to people.

Then again, that is the question, is it just about religion? or is it an elborate way to stoke up ethnic conflict, this is still not clear.


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Sep 11, 2009)

Large police presence in Harrow at the moment. Lots of riot vans sitting on road sides.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> But what to do about the EDL right now.. nothing, there is nothing wrong about saying religion is stupid.


i don't think you quite comprehend their critique of islam.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

I do, but the problem is they themselves are also confusing on this.

The offical EDL line is that they are just against extremeists, I dont have a problem with that, I dont like extremist christians or muslims either. And do not see anything wrong with saying so.

Then again another part of the EDL is aginst all muslims (i.e race), and they keep arguing amongst each other


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

And this sort of thing is what gives them oxygen and a reason to exist:

http://www.islam4uk.com/current-aff...1-an-invitation-to-the-english-defence-league

"As far as the English Defence League is concerned, indeed we are aware of your demonstrations against our aspirations to transform Britain into an Islamic State, and we would like to invite you to a constructive debate to discuss the reality of British law and its suitability to govern the masses."


----------



## glenquagmire (Sep 11, 2009)

The main banner says "no to extremism" or something like that. The heckles and smaller placards say things like "no more mosques" or more offensive things.

Bit like the NF used to have 'marches against muggings' through black areas of South London. No doubt some credulous idiots at the time said "but how can anyone be in favour of muggings"?

I'm off to Harrow as soon as I can swing an early finish from work.


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## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

But they are not the NF or the BNP, so the comparasions to the NF in the 70's are not the same.

On top they make the right noises, not-bnp, not racist, inclusive to other ethnic groups.. underneath this a lot of their members are very right wing on all kinds of different issues but others not so much.

So they are either a elborate front or they really are as confused as they seem. Or a combination of both, which is what I personally think they are.

Where as the anti-mugging marches where hightly coordinated with clear political goals, the EDL dont even seem to know what they stand for half the time.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 11, 2009)

incoherent anti-muslim nonsense, is what they stand for. And no amount of 'we aint racist guv, honest' is not going to fool anyone.


----------



## glenquagmire (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm sure certain people within the EDL know exactly what they want to achieve.

And plenty of useful idiots around them haven't a clue, let alone a coherent political plan, but will turn up and shout what they're asked to.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> incoherent anti-muslim nonsense, is what they stand for. And no amount of 'we aint racist guv, honest' is not going to fool anyone.



But that is the problem really, anti-muslim, it is a phrase I would apply to myself as I am anti all religion.

So they can use the excuse that they are protesting aginst a religion, not a race.

But from I have seen of their internet postings at leasts, a very few make some intelligent comments about Wahhbists and Sharia law being shit, then the rest go "yer, that is why we need England for the English!"


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

Chester Copperpot said:


> Large police presence in Harrow at the moment. Lots of riot vans sitting on road sides.





> A Harrow mosque leader says he is sad about plans for a 9/11 far-right protest outside its building. The English Defence League (EDL) has organised a demonstration in front of the building, in Station Road, on September 11, and plans to make it a memorial event for the 2001 terrorist attacks. The event will take place on a Friday, the Islamic holy day. Ghulam Rabbani, general secretary of the mosque, said: We also believe that September 11 wasnt right. We have a policy of anti-extremism.


http://article.feeds4all.nl/EDL-plans-provocation-in-Harrow/1719207175.aspx


----------



## tar1984 (Sep 11, 2009)

How the fuck could we ever get sharia law in this country anyway?  Surely even these guys don't actually believe that.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 11, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> How the fuck could we ever get sharia law in this country anyway?  Surely even these guys don't actually believe that.




We have sharia law in this country.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

glenquagmire said:


> The main banner says "no to extremism" or something like that. The heckles and smaller placards say things like "no more mosques" or more offensive things.
> 
> Bit like the NF used to have 'marches against muggings' through black areas of South London. No doubt some credulous idiots at the time said "but how can anyone be in favour of muggings"?
> 
> I'm off to Harrow as soon as I can swing an early finish from work.



Get there asap. The Harrow community don't deserve this singling out of their mosque for this kind of intimidation.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> How the fuck could we ever get sharia law in this country anyway?  Surely even these guys don't actually believe that.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...m-dispensing-justice-side-British-courts.html


----------



## Silver_Fox (Sep 11, 2009)

Obviously I don't agree with sharia law but these courts only affect people who are muslim. If you're not muslim, they won't affect you.

I think what people were asking was does anyone seriously believe that sharia courts will ever affect anyone outside muslim communities?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 11, 2009)

lol, source fail.


I believe there is a similar provision for Jewish law?

Point being all of these religious courts are subordinate to english crown/mag courts iirc.


----------



## Silver_Fox (Sep 11, 2009)

The google add on the EDF forum site is "The international Muslim Matrimonial Site"...........ROFLMAO!!!!

http://www.muslima.com/?ovchn=GGL&o...ad&ovtac=PPC&gclid=CO3P9uPb6ZwCFZ0U4wodVmZTkQ


----------



## tar1984 (Sep 11, 2009)

But the people who are protesting won't be subject to that...and the british legal system will still have precedence.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 11, 2009)

Silver_Fox said:


> Obviously I don't agree with sharia law but these courts only affect people who are muslim. If you're not muslim, they won't affect you.
> 
> I think what people were asking was does anyone seriously believe that sharia courts will ever affect anyone outside muslim communities?



It's a good stick to beat with though. You can whip up fear and hate with stories about how sharia is practised in the emirates and let people infer that that is what british muslims want here.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

The problem is there are certain UK Islamic groups promoting that exact concept (UK wide Sharia law for all), yes they are loons, but they are the life blood of the EDL as they are their excuse for existing.

Ah, yer, daily mail


----------



## Silver_Fox (Sep 11, 2009)

Only a nutcase would ever think that the UK will ever have a muslim state or sharia law as the national law.


----------



## Silver_Fox (Sep 11, 2009)

Seriously do you think google have done this for a laugh:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/EDL_The_Forum/index/


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

Silver_Fox said:


> Only a nutcase would ever think that the UK will ever have a muslim state or sharia law as the national law.



There are 60millon + people in the UK, and some of them will be nutcases, or just like a ruck, or both. For these people the EDL is looking very attractive at the moment, plus it gives them an excuse to have a go at Asians whilst having the excuse of being non-racist and anti-religion.

And they really hate than ad on the EDL boards, quite funny really I thought, it is because google scans for words to promote ads.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 11, 2009)

Silver_Fox said:


> Seriously do you think google have done this for a laugh:
> 
> http://s1.zetaboards.com/EDL_The_Forum/index/



PMSL either it's software fuckup or some wag at google is taking the royal piss


----------



## Silver_Fox (Sep 11, 2009)

> And they really hate than ad on the EDL boards, quite funny really I thought, it is because google scans for words to promote ads.
> Reply With Quote


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

There is quite a sweet irony about a bunch of people logging on to rant on about Islam and be presented with a Muslim dating website, they dont seem to get the joke though.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Sep 11, 2009)

Sharia law is accepted by Lloyds TSB Bank who will offer an account to Muslims that accords to Sharia Law in respect of not allowing usury.  It isn't just about chopping off hands and the other gory publicity that is associated with Sharia Law whatever EDL say.

English Defence League are indulging in what used to be called "Paki bashing" but now give it a gloss of cultural protectionism and hook it up with fear of terrorism.  Their demand for the closing of Mosques is not a reasonable response to perceived extremism but is the thing itself.


----------



## tar1984 (Sep 11, 2009)

Silver_Fox said:


> Seriously do you think google have done this for a laugh:
> 
> http://s1.zetaboards.com/EDL_The_Forum/index/



It's ok that's innocent muslims - the EDL are fine with the innocents.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 11, 2009)

If they're "peacefully protesting against militant Islam", they won't have a problem surely? Unless it's actually a militant matrimonial site.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 11, 2009)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Sharia law is accepted by Lloyds TSB Bank who will offer an account to Muslims that accords to Sharia Law in respect of not allowing usury.  It isn't just about chopping off hands and the other gory publicity that is associated with Sharia Law whatever EDL say.
> 
> English Defence League are indulging in what used to be called "Paki bashing" but now give it a gloss of cultural protectionism and hook it up with fear of terrorism.  Their demand for the closing of Mosques is not a reasonable response to perceived extremism but is the thing itself.



I love how the sophistry works with islamic banking. 'We aren't usurers but we do charge fees'


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

First they came for the mosques ....
Then they came for the synagogues ...

First they came for Halal ...
Then they came for Kashrut ...

First they came for Sharia ... 
Then they came for Beth Din ...

Anyone who asks those people who currently stand against EDL to stop, must be out of their minds!


----------



## tar1984 (Sep 11, 2009)

It's not as if the EDL are ever going to acheive anything though.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> It's not as if the EDL are ever going to acheive anything though.



Apart from frightening women and children, and sending dads and brothers into full-on 'Protect' mode.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

And that is what I think the point of the EDL is, to cause ethnic conflict under a guise of being anti-religion.

That is why they come across as so confused, as what they are doing does not really make much sense without knowing the actual orginial intention of the formation of the EDL, but there was a lot of thought put into the EDL creation and it is a new develoupment not a front for the BNP or NF.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 11, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> As early as 1980 the SWP/ANL were running scared of the BM. For example marching away from them in Oxford hiding in a semi cul-de-sac in London while 800 marched past unmolested. As for the 'trophy hunting episode' you have to supply more details before I'd give it any credence whatsoever as it was a matter of reflex to appropriate the work of others from 1980 onwards.



Sorry Joe but I'm not going to give any more details, that would be just stupid. Anyway, as I said, I wasn't there, but I trust those who were there and told me about it to believe them. I would prefer to move on from this, so I will.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Sep 11, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I love how the sophistry works with islamic banking. 'We aren't usurers but we do charge fees'



Yeah.  I don't see what the fuss is about.  It's just a bank account dressed up in such a way as to make it 'islamically acceptable'...


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Sep 11, 2009)

http://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/4593891.Community_urged_to_stay_calm/

Hmmm - police activity is rising and saw two helicopters earlier but they seem to have gone. Two full police vans just screamed full of police officers heading for wealdstone. These are not the normal Harrow ones. They we're silver with the black mesh windscreen protectors.

Some of the shops on the high street have been boarded up apparently but I can't confirm that.


----------



## Davo1 (Sep 11, 2009)

> SIOE demo called off!
> 
> Posted by Sitemaster on September 11, 2009
> In this moment Stephen Gash is being told by a senior sergent of the police to call off the demonstration in Harrow. He has been arrested to prevent a breach of the peace…
> ...



They're saying it has been called off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2009)

Chester Copperpot said:


> http://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/4593891.Community_urged_to_stay_calm/
> 
> Hmmm - police activity is rising and saw two helicopters earlier but they seem to have gone. Two full police vans just screamed full of police officers heading for wealdstone. These are not the normal Harrow ones. They we're silver with the black mesh windscreen protectors.
> 
> Some of the shops on the high street have been boarded up apparently but I can't confirm that.


that's tsg - 2/3 of a psu


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Sep 11, 2009)

Just got home and it's starting to kick off. There's police every where. I counted 8 vans at the end of our road when I pulled in. My friends just arrived and they saw a group of about 20 people being marched up the main road flanked on both sides by about 30 police officers. with two vans in front and two behind marching them away from the protest towards south harrow train station. Apparently police in riot gear have now been deployed.


----------



## treelover (Sep 11, 2009)

> If you are on your way to the demo, don’t go, it’s being called off right now. The police can’t handle the muslim counter demonstraters. The senior sergent said that he doesn’t want any of his policemen killed.





If that comment is broadcast, then things could escalate very quickly indeed.


----------



## treelover (Sep 11, 2009)

btw, why does the media insist on calling the Muslim youth 'anti-fascist' some may be, but most wouldn't be there if it was say, a Hindu Temple, being targeted.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 11, 2009)

treelover said:


> If that comment is broadcast, then things could escalate very quickly indeed.




See that UAF string-pullers there with banners protesting against the BNP, 
when the televison images of rampaging Muslims attacking police can only boost BNP support. 

The ANL was shut down because it antics were quite rightly condemned as dangerously counter-productive by a number of Labour MP's in the North West. 

None this is 'defeating the BNP' quite the opposite. The BNP have proscribed the EDL...wouldn't be nice to be able to proscribe the UAF?


----------



## Spion (Sep 11, 2009)

treelover said:


> btw, why does the media insist on calling the Muslim youth 'anti-fascist' some may be, but most wouldn't be there if it was say, a Hindu Temple, being targeted.


Would you be asking the same question if it were an 'anti fascist' demo mostly involving jews or black people?


----------



## Spion (Sep 11, 2009)

Joe Reilly said:


> rampaging Muslims


Oh noes. I suggest you team up with the EDL to stop them


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

just watched the sky news .. vids and pictures of 'rioting' muslim youth .. another victory for the EDL/fascists/SIOE whoever they are .. they are way smarter than the left at the minute


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

Yep they have done what they set out to achieve, stirred up tensions and got pictures of rioting Asians in the newspapers and on TV. Seems they all walked into the trap very easily


----------



## Davo1 (Sep 11, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8251598.stm



> Hundreds of youths, some covering their faces with scarves, are still in the area and there are small skirmishes with police as some demonstrators break the police cordon.





> Seven people were arrested for possession of offensive weapons including a hammer, a chisel and bottles of bleach.



Thats what everyone will remember unfortunately.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> Yep they have done what they set out to achieve, stirred up tensions and got pictures of rioting Asians in the newspapers and on TV. Seems they all walked into the trap very easily


 and of course encouraged by you know who


----------



## Davo1 (Sep 11, 2009)

And for UAF on their Twitter...



> Crowd thinning out now. People handing dates around to remaining demostrators. Very proud that the racists were stopped in their tracks.



.... it was just another lovely day out.

bless.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

.


----------



## Spion (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> and of course encouraged by you know who


what should be the response when a bunch of racists turns up to blame an entire relgious group for an act they didn't do?


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

It is important to look at what the organisers of this lot (whoever they are) where trying to achieve, they knew they would not stop the building of the mosque and they knew there would be a huge turn out aginst them.

That is exactly what they wanted, pictures of Asians throwing things at the police to make all the national papers and TV whilst the "other side" goaded them and jeered behind police lines.

If there was not a counter demonstration, this would have been a non-event, just another bunch of fanatics blowing in the wind, but you are right, how could people not get pissed off by this provocation, that is exactly what 'they' thought would happen.


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> It is important to look at what the organisers of this lot (whoever they are) where trying to achieve, they knew they would not stop the building of the mosque and they knew there would be a huge turn out aginst them.
> 
> That is exactly what they wanted, pictures of Asians throwing things at the police to make all the national papers and TV whilst the "other side" goaded them and jeered behind police lines.
> 
> If there was not counter demonstration, this would have been a non-event, just another bunch of fanatics blowing in the wind, but you are right, how could people not get pissed off by this provocation, that is exactly what "they" thought would happen.




DP


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> It is important to look at what the organisers of this lot (whoever they are) where trying to achieve, *they knew they would not stop the building of the mosque *and they knew there would be a huge turn out aginst them.



The mosque is pretty much finished TBH.



Bajie said:


> That is exactly what they wanted, pictures of Asians throwing things at the police to make all the national papers and TV whilst the "other side" goaded them and jeered behind police lines.
> 
> 
> 
> If there was not a counter demonstration, this would have been a non-event, just another bunch of fanatics blowing in the wind, but you are right, how could people not get pissed off by this provocation, that is exactly what 'they' thought would happen.



^^^ This X 1000000


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> incoherent anti-muslim nonsense, is what they stand for. And no amount of 'we aint racist guv, honest' is not going to fool anyone.



fooled bajie, but that's not too difficult


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

fuck off pickmans.


----------



## Spion (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> It is important to look at what the organisers of this lot (whoever they are) where trying to achieve, they knew they would not stop the building of the mosque and they knew there would be a huge turn out aginst them.


It seems to me the organisers would like there to be anti-muslim demos that increase in size. That's what they've tried to build this summer. That they cannot organise with impunity is a good things. So, there's some trouble. That's life. When workers/minorities get riled things aren't all nice and orderly. I'm not going to condemn them any sooner than I'd condemn a picket line that got violent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> fuck off pickmans.


touched a nerve i see.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

fuck you.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> It seems to me the organisers would like there to be anti-muslim demos that increase in size. That's what they've tried to build this summer. That they cannot organise with impunity is a good things. So, there's some trouble. That's life. When workers/minorities get riled things aren't all nice and orderly. I'm not going to condemn them any sooner than I'd condemn a picket line that got violent.



Yep, every event is chosen to provoke, on one side I can see what they are trying to do and the other side I can see why people have to turn out aginst them. They are shit stirrers of the highest order.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> Yep, every event is chosen to provoke, on one side I can see what they are trying to do and the other side I can see why people have to turn out aginst them. They are shit stirrers of the highest order.


bit of a damascene conversion there


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

fuck off.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

bbc news reporting


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> what should be the response when a bunch of racists turns up to blame an entire relgious group for an act they didn't do?



 an entirely peaceful rememberence service for 9/11  with clear opposition to Islamist terrorism would have been appropriate yet the blurb from UAF etc concentrates on Islamophobia and utterly ignores it's timing of 9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred ) and they do not even mention 9/11 .. they have NO brains in the swp at the moment

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/i...rrow-central-mosque-from-anti-muslim-rac.html

btw there was a right-wing iranian group involved too who seem to have links with the far right http://azarmehr.blogspot.com/ 

(unlike the Workers Communist Part of Iran who will be demonstrating on Sunday agains the Iranian funded Al Quds march who are unsuprisingly simply anti religion)


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> It seems to me the organisers would like there to be anti-muslim demos that increase in size. That's what they've tried to build this summer. That they cannot organise with impunity is a good things. So, there's some trouble. That's life. When workers/minorities get riled things aren't all nice and orderly. I'm not going to condemn them any sooner than I'd condemn a picket line that got violent.



But surely if the aim of the UAF is to stop the growth of the far-right in this country how are tonights events going to help that ?

The overwhelming majority of people in this country probably did not know that this Mosque existed in Harrow and did not care. And if a few dickheads had wanted to protest against it so what ? 

But now they will all see on their Television screens tonight are charging Asians, looking as though they are intent on attacking white people be it protesters or Police officers. 

And it is inevitable that a few more people will decide that 'enough is enough' and decide to vote BNP.

So what has been achieved ? People gain a perception that voicing objections to Islam is met with violence thus backing up the claims of the far-right. 

For the BNP this whole EDL thing is win win. They can offically distance themselves from them whilst picking up votes from the fall out caused by the 'anti' demonstrations. 

If the BNP are behind the EDL then its a stroke of genius.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

lol .. so SIOE which appears to be the brainchild of one NUT stephen gash gets 15 ( fifteen demonstators to harrow) .. the biggest demonstration since the poll tax ( a guess?? ) in this area in opposition to this provocation 
 for fuck sake .. and all around the country is being dismantled sold off privatised CCTVed etc etc etc .. the liberal orthodox left are really fucking idiots


----------



## audiotech (Sep 11, 2009)

Spion said:


> It seems to me the organisers would like there to be anti-muslim demos that increase in size. That's what they've tried to build this summer. That they cannot organise with impunity is a good things. So, there's some trouble. That's life. When workers/minorities get riled things aren't all nice and orderly. I'm not going to condemn them any sooner than I'd condemn a picket line that got violent.



From a US forum in reply to some UK nutjob:



> So 8 people getting arrested for protesting. Is a race riot? Oh gimme a break. Go drink you're tea and shut the fuck up please.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> But surely if the aim of the UAF is to stop the growth of the far-right in this country how are tonights events going to help that ?
> 
> The overwhelming majority of people in this country probably did not know that this Mosque existed in Harrow and did not care. And if a few dickheads had wanted to protest against it so what ?
> 
> ...



and again spot on


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8251598.stm



http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...h_With_Metropolitan_Police_Near_London_Mosque

btw looks like renton in the clip on the sky homepage


----------



## Darios (Sep 11, 2009)

_"Bricks and firecrackers thrown at the police."_

Great. FFS.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8251598.stm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


on the clip on the sky site, i wonder if the xb eg at the end is ps xb92 guy rooney


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> an entirely peaceful rememberence service for 9/11  with clear opposition to Islamist terrorism would have been appropriate yet the blurb from UAF etc concentrates on Islamophobia and utterly ignores it's timing of 9/11 t*he one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic* ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred ) and they do not even mention 9/11 .. they have NO brains in the swp at the moment



Come on this is ridiculous.  You might as well say it's OK to be anti-Irish (or anti-Catholic) on an anniversary of an IRA bombing.  I think most people are bright enough to realise that the tiny minority of Islamist terrorists are not representative of Muslims as a whole.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> .. but this is getting potentially very serious ..
> 
> I think this demands some serious thought . the demo on the 8th in Brum is happenning and UAF have called a counter demo .. this is POTENTIALLY disasterously counter productive [/B]



4 tiny or non existant (luton) demos since and we have 4 sets of pics and vids of muslim youth in luton and harrow attacking the police and in brum (twice) apparrently attacking random white people .. 

1) do more or less people support the positions of the EDL
2) do more or less people support the position of the BNP 
3) do more or less people support the position of UAF
4) do more or less people support the position of the SWP


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Come on this is ridiculous.  You might as well say it's OK to be anti-Irish (or anti-Catholic) on an anniversary of an IRA bombing.  I think most people are bright enough to realise that the tiny minority of Islamist terrorists are not representative of Muslims as a whole.


 blag mate .. READ my post PLEASE .. to be PHOBIC is NOT to be ANTI .. IT IS TO BE AFRAID OF!! ok???


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> blag mate .. READ my post PLEASE .. to be PHOBIC is NOT to be ANTI .. IT IS TO BE AFRAID OF!! ok???



Please read my post.  You're being ridiculous.  Should people have been forgiven for being scared of ALL Irish people during the IRA mainland bombing campaign?

I think you're assuming people are stupid here.  Most people know that Islamist terrorists are the tiny minority.  You're in danger of buying into the EDL propaganda.  Please think about what you're posting!


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Please read my post.  You're being ridiculous.  Should people have been forgiven for being scared of ALL Irish people during the IRA mainland bombing campaign?
> 
> I think you're assuming people are stupid here.  Most people know that Islamist terrorists are the tiny minority.  You're in danger of buying into the EDL propaganda.  Please think about what you're posting!



blag .. this is not about what you or i think but about what the public think .. you are gravely mistaken if you think i have bought any of this .. the issue is who is winning the propaganda war 

and yes you are still missing the point .. phobias are irrational fears based on a vague rationality .. 200 brits were killed in 9/11, 50 in the london bombs and various other plots ( some of who are certainly true if not all) would have massacred many others .. is it wrong for everyone to have a even the bit of fear of this?


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

I think durutti is doing some good work in researching who/what the EDL are about, but that last post was silly.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> blag .. this is not about what you or i think but about what the public think .. you are gravely mistaken if you think i have bought any of this .. the issue is who is winning the propaganda war
> 
> and yes you are still missing the point .. phobias are irrational fears based on a vague rationality .. 200 brits were killed in 9/11, 50 in the london bombs and various other plots ( some of who are certainly true if not all) would have massacred many others .. is it wrong for everyone to have a even the bit of fear of this?



I think "the public" are brighter than you give them credit for.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I think durutti is doing some good work in researching who/what the EDL are about, but that last post was silly.



phobias are NOT wrong or evil .. they are things that need to be sorted .. go through all teh other phobias you know


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I think "the public" are brighter than you give them credit for.


 you have made an assumption that is wrong .. but in a period where people are looking for scapegoats this is works a treat


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> phobias are NOT wrong or evil .. they are things that need to be sorted .. go through all teh other phobias you know



As I said, i think you're underestimating the general public.  Even the EDL are saying they're against just the extremists!


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> As I said, i think you're underestimating the general public.  Even the EDL are saying they're against just the extremists!


 yes but those 'liberals' (fwoabw) in the edl may well be being utterly and totally manipulated


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes but those 'liberals' (fwoabw) in the edl may well be being utterly and totally manipulated



Yes, I know.  My point was that most people can understand that the vast majority of Muslims are nothing to be scared of.  By saying that 9/11 is "the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic", you're saying that you don't believe that most people know this - I think you're underestimating people.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

Seems to me so far though that it is the other way round, the EDL leaders/spokesman say they are just aginst extremists and the actual members want to have a go at all muslims (asians).


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

So why turn up at a Mosque renowned for it's rejection of extremism, and hold a 9/11 protest there?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> Seems to me so far though that it is the other way round, the EDL leaders/spokesman say they are just aginst extremists and the actual members want to have a go at all muslims (asians).



That can't be true, else they'd be following Choudary around. 

Instead, notably today, they turned up at a Mosque renowned for their rejection of extremism taking their angst out on unconnected people. 

Same goes for taking their protest into the city centre - on a Saturday, and claiming they're a multifaith group? For them, multifaith consists of racialised wn neopagan groups and a few fundamentalist Christian-types like Lionheart.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

Today was a SIOE thing, but as for the EDL, the members reflect it's true purpose, what the leadership/spokesman say is just to create a smoke screen.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

I know who SIOE are - they were leafletting my university 2 years ago and were removed by security on my say-so.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

yes


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

Bajie said:


> EDL, the members reflect it's true purpose, what the leadership/spokesman say is just to create a smoke screen.


I agree. I think Luton/Hemel Hempstead NF are involved.


----------



## STFC (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Come on this is ridiculous.  You might as well say it's OK to be anti-Irish (or anti-Catholic) on an anniversary of an IRA bombing.  I think most people are bright enough to realise that the tiny minority of Islamist terrorists are not representative of Muslims as a whole.



Absolutely right. _Most_ people are.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> phobias are NOT wrong or evil .. they are things that need to be sorted .. go through all teh other phobias you know



Give me your email address and I will send you an essay I wrote on Islamophobia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Give me your email address and I will send you an essay I wrote on Islamophobia.


what mark did you get for it?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 11, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> So why turn up at a Mosque renowned for it's rejection of extremism, and hold a 9/11 protest there?



this is key, if they are only against extremists then why protest against a mosque being built


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 11, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> what mark did you get for it?



First (88%).


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> an entirely peaceful rememberence service for 9/11  with clear opposition to Islamist terrorism would have been appropriate yet the blurb from UAF etc concentrates on Islamophobia and utterly ignores it's timing of 9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred ) and they do not even mention 9/11 .. they have NO brains in the swp at the moment
> 
> http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/i...rrow-central-mosque-from-anti-muslim-rac.html
> 
> ...



Oooh, you can be a bigot today, that's ok. WHAT UTTER FUCKING BOLLOCKS.


----------



## STFC (Sep 11, 2009)

smokedout said:


> this is key, if they are only against extremists then why protest against a mosque being built



It was a SIOE demo wasn't it? I've never heard of them before, but it sounds in keeping with their name.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

STFC said:


> It was a SIOE demo wasn't it? I've never heard of them before, but it sounds in keeping with their name.



I'd be very surprised if there's no crossover between them and the EDL, CU etc.


----------



## STFC (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I'd be very surprised if there's no crossover between them and the EDL, CU etc.



Me too. But I've genuinely never heard of them before today, whereas EDL/CU I have.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

The media are featuring the EDL a lot more now

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/english-defence-league-chaotic-alliance

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8250017.stm


----------



## treelover (Sep 11, 2009)

That Guardian article reads like a Searchlight Press Release,


----------



## OneStrike (Sep 11, 2009)

As said, the EDL had nothing to do with this, i know much less about the SIOE,  they looked like a more extreme right wing group (just judging by the pictures,  weak explanation, i know).  The EDL wouldn't be protesting for this i think, though trafalger square will get messy in a couple of days sadly.  One thing is for sure, the UAF are really close to hanging themselves with all of this violence,  an orchestrated show of overwhelming numbers today would have been a real winner, if it was non-violent,  as it is i know of a white couple where the man has a broken nose and his girl got pushed to the ground in Harrow today, because they are white and in the wrong place at the right time.

  It's a sad state of affairs, i'm glad summer is coming to an end.


----------



## Darios (Sep 11, 2009)

From the Harrow Times:



> A group of six white men were spotted heading from the station to the mosque at around 5pm, but before they could make their intentions clear, they were chased by dozens of the protesters, some armed with sticks, through the civic centre car park.
> 
> .....
> 
> As community leaders spoke at around 6pm, declaring the protest a success and a testimony to Harrow's cohesion and multi-cultural make-up, the protesters began running towards the station and to the eventual violent stand-off with police.



FFS


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Oooh, you can be a bigot today, that's ok. WHAT UTTER FUCKING BOLLOCKS.


 do you NEVER forgive people for being AFRAID? of being irrrational?? is everyone here soooo fucking righteous?? none of you have any littel irrationalities any little secret fears? you you deny ANYONE else theirs? hmmm and you wonder why no one fucking listens to you?? lol  

 a bit of rhetoric and the rattles are flying out the prams .. suprised at you though 

"9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred)"


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Smurker said:


> As said, the EDL had nothing to do with this, i know much less about the SIOE,  they looked like a more extreme right wing group (just judging by the pictures,  weak explanation, i know).  The EDL wouldn't be protesting for this i think, though trafalger square will get messy in a couple of days sadly.  One thing is for sure, the UAF are really close to hanging themselves with all of this violence,  an orchestrated show of overwhelming numbers today would have been a real winner, if it was non-violent,  as it is i know of a white couple where the man has a broken nose and his girl got pushed to the ground in Harrow today, because they are white and in the wrong place at the right time.
> 
> It's a sad state of affairs, i'm glad summer is coming to an end.



i don't believe SIOE has any 'supporters' i think they come curtesy of the EDL/CU and anyone else similarly minded


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Yes, I know.  My point was that most people can understand that the vast majority of Muslims are nothing to be scared of.  By saying that 9/11 is "the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic", you're saying that you don't believe that most people know this - I think you're underestimating people.


 where in that sentance does it say or imply ALL or even most mate? it simply says 'people' .. and that IF anyone is going to be irrationally scared of islam if WOULD be on 9/111 or 7/7? yes??


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> where in that sentance does it say or imply ALL or even most mate? it simply says 'people' .. and that IF anyone is going to be irrationally scared of islam if WOULD be on 9/111 or 7/7? yes??



Errr....by writing "people" it implies (to me anyhow) that you're speaking generally about...people


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Give me your email address and I will send you an essay I wrote on Islamophobia.


 summarising it here ( or on another thread)  would be preferable


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 11, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Errr....by writing "people" it implies (to me anyhow) that you're speaking generally about...people



"9/11 the one day of the year people [not; the nation/the whole people/everyone/the mass/the majority/all the people/ etc etc etc .. just 'people'] be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred)" 

saying stuff like this is NOT a big deal .. people [that is the few on the left for whom its is a deal] need to get over things like this .. they stop us dealing with the real issues ..


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> "9/11 the one day of the year people [not; the nation/the whole people/everyone/the mass/the majority/all the people/ etc etc etc .. just 'people'] be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred)"
> 
> saying stuff like this is NOT a big deal .. people [that is the few on the left for whom its is a deal] need to get over things like this .. they stop us dealing with the real issues ..



Just "people" you say.  Which people?  Is irrational bigotry OK now?


----------



## Spion (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> saying stuff like this is NOT a big deal


What next? Anti-semitism day. I mean, it's just a religion, it's not racism.


----------



## Bajie (Sep 11, 2009)

If anyone can bear to hear this git drone on, Lionheart did an interview on the EDL last month
http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2009/08/edl-talksport-radio-interview.html


----------



## Spion (Sep 11, 2009)

Durrutti, thru this whole thing you've been paralysed and unable clearly say what the EDL et al are all about, and consequently you've had no practical suggestion on what people should do when a load of racists try to demonise a whole religio-cultural group. The best thing is tho, you're totally irrelevant. None of your lame-ass ideas (if you can call them that) have had the strength to become more than infantile blether on a message board' "Oh, it's all so complex, well they might have a point" - *vomit*. You've had no single thing to say to the people that are rightly pissed off about bunches of racist troublemakers appearing in UK town centres.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> "9/11 the one day of the year people [not; the nation/the whole people/everyone/the mass/the majority/all the people/ etc etc etc .. just 'people'] be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred)"
> 
> saying stuff like this is NOT a big deal .. people [that is the few on the left for whom its is a deal] need to get over things like this .. they stop us dealing with the real issues ..



Look - I understand how people are scared of Islamist fundies.  Not how people are scared of all Muslims.  You seem to be saying it's OK to be scared of all Muslims for one day a year.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Look - I understand how people are scared of Islamist fundies.  Not how people are scared of all Muslims.  You seem to be saying it's OK to be scared of all Muslims for one day a year.


 but that is the point mate !!!!  .. it is logical and rational to be scared and have a -phobia of black widows and tarantulas .. but arachnophobia is a fear of ALL spiders 

so islmophobia is a fear of ALL islam .. it's not right but thats the deal with fear and phobia ..


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but that is the point mate !!!!  .. it is logical and rational to be scared and have a -phobia of black widows and tarantulas .. but arachnophobia is a fear of ALL spiders
> 
> so islmophobia is a fear of ALL islam .. it's not right but thats the deal with fear and phobia ..



Yes, I know what it means.  You're saying it's OK for people to be scared of all Muslims because of what a tiny minority did.  Let's extend that.  Is it OK to be scared of all black people because one once mugged me?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> What next? Anti-semitism day. I mean, it's just a religion, it's not racism.


 why would people have a fear of jews in the uk in 2009 or at any time? have we just had nearly 400 soldiers killed by israel? or have jewish religious nutters blwon up the tiwn towers killing 200 brits? or were jews behind the london 7/7 bombings? no .. so your comment is nonsense


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> why would people have a fear of jews in the uk in 2009 or at any time? have we just had nearly 400 soldiers killed by israel? or have jewish religious nutters blwon up the tiwn towers killing 200 brits? or were jews behind the london 7/7 bombings? no .. so your comment is nonsense



As is your comment.  MOST PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS DIDN'T DO THESE THINGS.

Sorry for the shouting, but you seem a little deaf tonight.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Yes, I know what it means.  You're saying it's OK for people to be scared of all Muslims because of what a tiny minority did.  Let's extend that.  Is it OK to be scared of all black people because one once mugged me?


 i know too many people who are .. and i would forgive them on an anniversary say of that attack .. 

btw do you remember why i said that comment? .. as the UAF in their propaganda for the demo had failed to even acknowledge what day this was let alone saying WE should emonstrate about that atrocity .. WE should be demonstrating on this day .. against imperialism and fascist islamism .. instead we allow these SIOE and BNP ****s to win hands down a propaganda war ... fools


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> As is your comment.  MOST PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS DIDN'T DO THESE THINGS.
> 
> Sorry for the shouting, but you seem a little deaf tonight.


 you are not getting what phobia means


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i know too many people who are .. and i would forgive them on an anniversary say of that attack ..



Well I think you're being foolish.  People don't just become irrational in their beliefs on one day of the year.  What they may do however is to use that day as an excuse to express their already held prejudices.



durruti02 said:


> btw do you remember why i said that comment? .. as the UAF in their propaganda for the demo had failed to even acknowledge what day this was let alone saying WE should emonstrate about that atrocity .. WE should be demonstrating on this day .. against imperialism and fascist islamism .. instead we allow these SIOE and BNP ****s to win hands down a propaganda war ... fools



Maybe we should be, but not outside a mosque that is against extremism!


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> you are not getting what phobia means



I'm well aware thanks.


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> why would people have a fear of jews in the uk in 2009 or at any time?


jews killed hundreds of British soldiers in Palestine in the late 40s, including blowing up hotels with dozens of dead. Would it have been OK to be anti-semitic then? By your logic it would be


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> Durrutti, thru this whole thing you've been paralysed and unable clearly say what the EDL et al are all about, and consequently you've had no practical suggestion on what people should do when a load of racists try to demonise a whole religio-cultural group. The best thing is tho, you're totally irrelevant. None of your lame-ass ideas (if you can call them that) have had the strength to become more than infantile blether on a message board' "Oh, it's all so complex, well they might have a point" - *vomit*. You've had no single thing to say to the people that are rightly pissed off about bunches of racist troublemakers appearing in UK town centres.


 i have said plenty of times 

1) peaceful static counter demos 
2) militant defence of muslim areas 
3) but the key issue i raise these things is that actually IF there has been no ground work done, and IF as is the case  the liberal m/c left that you belong to have abandoned the working class for soo long, THEN actually there is very little that can be done in the here and now .. it si teh same argument all along re the BNP .. what i do know is that UAF winding up the situation has done no good at all 

and islamism isn't complex .. i am against it as any socialist with a brain is ..


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i have said plenty of times
> 
> 1) peaceful static counter demos
> 2) militant defence of muslim areas
> ...



i'd agree with most of that, it's your excusing of prejudice on one day of the year i find puzzling


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> the liberal m/c left have abandoned the working class for soo long..



Like a lost little puppy dog


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> jews killed hundreds of British soldiers in Palestine in the late 40s, including blowing up hotels with dozens of dead. Would it have been OK to be anti-semitic then? By your logic it would be


 lol 'ok' who said 'ok'? but guess you know that was the basis of the UM agitation after the war .. with the irony that the 43 group who opposed them were themselves zionist .. but i didn't realise the stern gang blew up the underground or declared that britain would become jewish or that non believers should be beheaded?


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i have said plenty of times
> 
> 1) peaceful static counter demos
> 2) militant defence of muslim areas


Well, that's pretty much what's been happening anyway, except 'militant defence' hasn't been limited 'muslim areas' but has been happening in town centres when defence has been necessary. Quite rightly. 




durruti02 said:


> 3) but the key issue i raise these things is that actually IF there has been no ground work done, and IF as is the case  the liberal m/c left that you belong to have abandoned the working class for soo long, *THEN actually there is very little that can be done in the here and now *


What bullshit. You want to get to people 'in their communities' - well, you start out when they appear in the streets because they want to rightly do something about some reactionary idiots who want to threaten their communities

You're crippled by your sectarianism, by wanting to look oh-so-different to this largely mythical idea of 'the left' you peddle


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> largely mythical idea of 'the left' you peddle



And a largely mythical idea of a working class that includes no Muslims


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> i'd agree with most of that, it's your excusing of prejudice on one day of the year i find puzzling


 i will excuse prejudice any day of the year if their is a reason .. (m/c) leftists spend far too much times judging and belittling and condemning and not enough trying to understand .. and you know what else? prejudice is similarly misused  it is people who have judged and are life long bigots who are the evil ones not those who prejudge ignorently and are fearful .. 

the history of fascism is of scared and insecure people walking into the hands of the fascists .. we have a choice .. win them back or drive them into their clutches  

"9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred)"


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> lol 'ok' who said 'ok'? but guess you know that was the basis of the UM agitation after the war .. with the irony that the 43 group who opposed them were themselves zionist .. but i didn't realise the stern gang blew up the underground or declared that britain would become jewish or that non believers should be beheaded?


Earlier you said the British soldiers killed in Afgh were a contributory factor to people fearing muslims but soldiers killed abroad don't count in my example?


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> And a largely mythical idea of a working class that includes no Muslims


Yep, if they're white and working class they've got a point. If it's muslim w/c youth angry that racists are threating their communities they are only helping the fascists apparently


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i will excuse prejudice any day of the year if their is a reason .. (m/c) leftists spend far too much times judging and belittling and condemning and not enough trying to understand .. and you know what else? prejudice is similarly misused  it is people who have judged and are life long bigots who are the evil ones not those who prejudge ignorently and are fearful ..
> 
> the history of fascism is of scared and insecure people walking into the hands of the fascists .. we have a choice .. win them back or drive them into their clutches
> 
> "9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred)"



Surely the way to get people away from their bigotry is to debate rationally, not excuse.  Understand, yes, this is not the same as excuse or forgive.  Although if someone blames all Muslims for the actions of a minority then maybe their mind is made up.  Most people aren't that stupid.  People who are racist against black people for example will sometimes use the excuse that they have been mugged by a black man - this is usually just a rationalisation for being racist.  Racists/bigots will generally find any excuse.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> What bullshit. You want to get to people 'in their communities' - well, you start out when they appear in the streets because they want to rightly do something about some reactionary idiots who want to threaten their communities
> 
> You're crippled by your sectarianism, by wanting to look oh-so-different to this largely mythical idea of 'the left' you peddle



you would say it is bullshit  as your m/c left has so fucked things up .. they are but some self seeking opportunists absent from muslim communities and apart from the SP and IWCA absent from non muslim communities .. if you think think you only start out now you are insane .. bullshit firefighting parachuting opportunism .. what are you again Workers Power? i know you don't actually do anything but hey 


btw your image of me is really 180o wrong  but hey i wouldn't like to spoil your prejudice or bigotry


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> And a largely mythical idea of a working class that includes no Muslims



this is a good point


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> your m/c left has so fucked things up



I have never heard you refer to any idea of the "left" that includes anyone apart from... well, you. Certainly not muslims, they automatically don't count.


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> you would say it is bullshit  as your m/c left has so fucked things up .. they are but some self seeking opportunists absent from muslim communities and apart from the SP and IWCA absent from non muslim communities .. *if you think think you only start out now you are insane *..


I'd like to know where you can start doing anything apart from *now*. Do you have a time machine? I can't believe I'm having to deal with such basics.

You're twisting in the wind, pal


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Surely the way to get people away from their bigotry is to debate rationally, not excuse.  Understand, yes, this is not the same as excuse or forgive.  Although if someone blames all Muslims for the actions of a minority then maybe their mind is made up.  Most people aren't that stupid.  People who are racist against black people for example will sometimes use the excuse that they have been mugged by a black man - this is usually just a rationalisation for being racist.  Racists/bigots will generally find any excuse.


 so what is racism then? where do reactionary ideas come from? why is it wrong to be racist? ( to me as it is unscientific and divisive) why is it wrong to be fascist ( it is divisive and depending on brand, racist and authoritarin) so why then is it wrong to be anti islamist? why is it wrong to understand and forgive (occasion) people who GET THINGS WRONG? 

and btw stephen gash should be tarred and feathered .. but NOT by muslims as he would wnat that ..

this is all about propaganda .. and EDL are winning ..


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have never heard you refer to any idea of the "left" that includes anyone apart from... well, you.


AKA the 'right'. Or to put a finer point on it - a rudderless, right wing 'left' wing clique/sect that's getting blown around like a hayseed


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> so what is racism then? where do reactionary ideas come from? why is it wrong to be racist? ( to me as it is unscientific and divisive) why is it wrong to be fascist ( it is divisive and depending on brand, racist and authoritarin) so why then is it wrong to be anti islamist? why is it wrong to understand and forgive (occasion) people who GET THINGS WRONG?
> 
> and btw stephen gash should be tarred and feathered .. but NOT by muslims as he would wnat that ..
> 
> this is all about propaganda .. and EDL are winning ..



It's not wrong to understand and forgive people who get things wrong.  It's just that IME, people who say they fear all Muslims due to the actions of a minority have already made their minds up and know which side they are on.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> AKA the 'right'. Or to put a finer point on it - a rudderless, right wing 'left' wing clique/sect that's getting blown around like a hayseed



I think that's unfair, durutti has expressed support for the SP and the IWCA.  To caricature either of them as "the right" is daft.


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> so why then is it wrong to be anti islamist?


No one said being anti-islamist is wrong. It's people holding placards with 'no more mosques' and chanting that all muslims are bombers and 'you dirty muslim bastards' etc that is wrong


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I think that's unfair, durutti has expressed support for the SP and the IWCA.  To caricature either of them as "the right" is daft.


I made no intentional reference to the SP and wouldn't include them in that. But if Durriuti, Butchers, Joe Reilly et al are representative of the IWCA then they're pretty right wing in my book


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> AKA the 'right'. Or to put a finer point on it - a rudderless, right wing 'left' wing clique/sect that's getting blown around like a hayseed



The thing is that nobody gives a shit what they say.

They're not helping people practically, and they're not defending them when they're being attacked because they happen to belong to a culture. So nobody cares. People know they have to self-organise and defend themselves and these old lefties are irrelevant, even if they've heard of them in the first place, which they usually haven't.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I made no intentional reference to the SP and wouldn't include them in that. But if Durriuti, Butchers, Joe Reilly et al are representative of the IWCA then they're pretty right wing in my book



In what way right wing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I made no intentional reference to the SP and wouldn't include them in that. But if Durriuti, Butchers, Joe Reilly et al are representative of the IWCA then they're pretty right wing in my book


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I'd like to know where you can start doing anything apart from *now*. Do you have a time machine? I can't believe I'm having to deal with such basics.
> 
> You're twisting in the wind, pal


lol spion i have been all this stuff .. a shop steward for nigh on 20 years .. i work with older english and younger gujeratis blokes and respected all round .. i have been doing community work for 25 years in hackney, including with Hackney Independent in the old fascist stronghold of Shoreditch where our presence played a part in stopping BNP coming back into London ( as they threatenned 5 or 6 years ago) i am also working alongside Hope Not Hate activists trying to create a solid borough wide community organisation .. 

 and all the basic work people like me are doing around the country can be blown away by the wrong reaction to fascist provocation ..


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> In what way right wing?


such as on the last few pages of this thread


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


>


You're also dribbling


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I think that's unfair, durutti has expressed support for the SP and the IWCA.  To caricature either of them as "the right" is daft.



He's also pretty plainly stated that he's happy with the idea of demos against muslims because they are muslims. Oh wait - demonstrations against "islamic extremism".


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> It's not wrong to understand and forgive people who get things wrong.  It's just that IME, people who say they fear all Muslims due to the actions of a minority have already made their minds up and know which side they are on.


 ok i understand .. and i think this is wrong and dangerously wrong as this position denies these people any way out .. though btw i have not heard anyone say they fear MUSLIMS .. people fear islam and islamism


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


>


 that's funny!! does spion not know who any of us are??


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

"oh we don't have anything against muslims, it's islam and islamism we hate!"

fuck's sake


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He's also pretty plainly stated that he's happy with the idea of demos against muslims because they are muslims.....


 fuck off fm .. i have said nothing of the sort .. and to suggest is pretty low .. in fact i am going to report your post


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "oh we don't have anything against muslims, it's islam and islamism we hate!"
> 
> fuck's sake


 we are talking about irrational phobias and prejudices fm .. please keep up instead of picking up fagbutts


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i have not heard anyone say they fear MUSLIMS


You're right. They don't fear them - they chant things like 'you dirty muslim bastards' instead


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> fuck off fm .. i have said nothing of the sort .. and to suggest is pretty low .. in fact i am going to report your post



*handbag*

Look, it's perfectly obvious and has been from the first time you posted about the EDL. Your anti-immigrant stuff feeds into it very easily.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> such as on the last few pages of this thread



I don't think any of it is right wing.  I think that durutti may be misjudged in how he expresses some things, doesn't make him right wing.

Way I see it is that he (and others) are attempting to understand what it is that attracts people to the far right in an effort to counter it.  In the work that I do (drug worker), the main way to start to get people to change their behaviour is to acknowledge how they see things, that their feelings are real for them.  Without that basic understanding, you get nowhere.  I think that is the tactic durutti et al are using here.  Why is it that the BNP are gaining ground while the left are seemingly moribund?  Why do some people feel alienated enough to turn to racism and fascism?  Do we need to understand that to be able to counter it?

There is a danger of collusion though in this approach (as there is in my work, self reflection is neccesary and supervision), it is important to check yourself regularly and not over identify.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ok i understand .. and i think this is wrong and dangerously wrong as this position denies these people any way out .. though btw i have not heard anyone say they fear MUSLIMS .. people fear islam and islamism



I think you're splitting hairs.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He's also pretty plainly stated that he's happy with the idea of demos against muslims because they are muslims. Oh wait - demonstrations against "islamic extremism".



Where?


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> *handbag*
> 
> Look, it's perfectly obvious and has been from the first time you posted about the EDL. Your anti-immigrant stuff feeds into it very easily.



I don't think durutti is anti-immigrant.  He has an analysis of the effects of immigration being of main benefit to capital - not the same thing as being anti-immigrant.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Durruti, you seem unable to distinguish between racism as the prejudice of an individual and racism as a guiding ideology in a group, organisation or movement(although obviously personal racism exists within a context of ideological racism but lets keep things simple) 

IME left wing activists will attempt to persuade people in their communities and their workplace who make racist political comments that they are wrong by pointing out evidence against that point of view. They will also encourage people to think of examples in their own _experience _that counter the racist POV expressed. When I was active I frequently had to argue with people who expressed racist comments and I argued with them politically, not morally and never belittled them. I never heard anyone else doing this either.

I wouldn't argue with someone who was involved with the EDL. You argue with people who you are _relatively_ close to politically. To do otherwise is a waste of time politically. Its like still arguing with your tory parents in your thirties. Except they probably wouldn't beat me up.


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> attempting to understand what it is that attracts people to the far right in an effort to counter it.  In the work that I do (drug worker), the main way to start to get people to change their behaviour is to acknowledge how they see things, that their feelings are real for them.  Without that basic understanding, you get nowhere.  I think that is the tactic durutti et al are using here.  Why is it that the BNP are gaining ground while the left are seemingly moribund?  Why do some people feel alienated enough to turn to racism and fascism?  Do we need to understand that to be able to counter it?


I agree that understanding's vital. But there comes a time when understanding is sterile without action. I mean, in your drug work you may spend as long as you like understanding people and trying to lay the ground for recovery, but if you're attacked by a client you have to exercise some form of response, don't you? And we can 'understand' the EDL til the cows come home but if they're on the streets threatening people they should not be allowed to get away with that. Call it 'right wing' or just negligent and sectarian, but I disagree strongly with sitting on the fence on this


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> Durruti, you seem unable to distinguish between racism as the prejudice of an individual and racism as a guiding ideology in a group, organisation or movement(although obviously personal racism exists within a context of ideological racism but lets keep things simple)
> 
> IME left wing activists will attempt to persuade people in their communities and their workplace who make racist political comments that they are wrong by pointing out evidence against that point of view. They will also encourage people to think of examples in their own _experience _that counter the racist POV expressed. When I was active I frequently had to argue with people who expressed racist comments and I argued with them politically, not morally and never belittled them. I never heard anyone else doing this either.
> 
> I wouldn't argue with someone who was involved with the EDL. You argue with people who you are _relatively_ close to politically. To do otherwise is a waste of time politically. Its like still arguing with your tory parents in your thirties. Except they probably wouldn't beat me up.



I think the point is that there are a mixed bag of people in the EDL.  Some people have been taken in by the "we're not racist guv" stuff.  Surely it's worth trying to steer them away from the right?


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I think the point is that there are a mixed bag of people in the EDL.  Some people have been taken in by the "we're not racist guv" stuff.  Surely it's worth trying to steer them away from the right?



Errrr, how exactly?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I don't think durutti is anti-immigrant.  He has an analysis of the effects of immigration being of main benefit to capital - not the same thing as being anti-immigrant.



There is a point at which someone's relentless opposition to the interest of anyone outside the bloody borough, and insistence on sons and daughters etc, becomes anti-immigrant. I consider that point to have been passed a while back.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> Errrr, how exactly?



By the sort of community organising that the IWCA are doing.  By making left wing politics relevant to people's lives, by being involved in bread and butter issues like pay and conditions, housing, education, benefits rights etc.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I think the point is that there are a mixed bag of people in the EDL.  Some people have been taken in by the "we're not racist guv" stuff.  Surely it's worth trying to steer them away from the right?



It doesn't make political sense to concentrate on people who are miles away from you politically. No one does that in mainstream politics and I'm not sure why other political action should diverge from that. Its a waste of time, energy and resources.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> It doesn't make political sense to concentrate on people who are miles away from you politically. No one does that in mainstream politics and I'm not sure why other political action should diverge from that. Its a waste of time, energy and resources.



The BNP have done well with door knocking politics.  The left are doing abysmally with their tactics.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I don't think any of it is right wing.  I think that durutti may be misjudged in how he expresses some things, doesn't make him right wing.
> 
> Way I see it is that he (and others) are attempting to understand what it is that attracts people to the far right in an effort to counter it.  In the work that I do (drug worker), the main way to start to get people to change their behaviour is to acknowledge how they see things, that their feelings are real for them.  Without that basic understanding, you get nowhere.  I think that is the tactic durutti et al are using here.  Why is it that the BNP are gaining ground while the left are seemingly moribund?  Why do some people feel alienated enough to turn to racism and fascism?  Do we need to understand that to be able to counter it?
> 
> There is a danger of collusion though in this approach (as there is in my work, self reflection is neccesary and supervision), it is important to check yourself regularly and not over identify.



yes you are right ^^^^ but really i see no danger in collusion mate .. none at all! really


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> By the sort of community organising that the IWCA are doing.  By making left wing politics relevant to people's lives, by being involved in bread and butter issues like pay and conditions, housing, education, benefits rights etc.



But that is being active within working class communities. That's not about specifically trying to persuade the EDL.

And I'm not sure anyone disagrees with the above. Its kind of obvious isn't it? But a lot harder to achieve in practice. Its a straw man of these boards rather than anything in the real world IMO.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes you are right ^^^^ but really i see no danger in collusion mate .. none at all! really



There is danger in collusion.

To act together secretly to achieve a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose; conspire.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> The BNP have done well with door knocking politics.  The left are doing abysmally with their tactics.



They do well knocking on doors in vulnerable neighbourhoods where people aren't confident politically. They persuade people who are already quite close to them in their thinking. They adopt precisely the tactic I'm talking about.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> But that is being active within working class communities.



Yes!



Red Cat said:


> That's not about specifically trying to persuade the EDL.



Their support is drawn from...where?



Red Cat said:


> And I'm not sure anyone disagrees with the above. Its kind of obvious isn't it? But a lot harder to achieve in practice. Its a straw man of these boards rather than anything in the real world IMO.



Very hard in practice which is why it's not done very often or well!  Easier to hold big demos against wars or pitch a tent at climate camp.  However, the BNP have done well with this approach (on the surface anyhow) when they abandoned street politics.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There is a point at which someone's relentless opposition to the interest of anyone outside the bloody borough, and insistence on sons and daughters etc, becomes anti-immigrant. I consider that point to have been passed a while back.


 FM you do not imho think politically .. you have never that i have seen expressed that you are involved in any grassroots community or trade union work .. you never express about HOW we can build strength where we live and work .. i have zero prejudice against migrants .. none absolutely none .. my issue has always been about people demanding their employers employ at proper rates and employ peopel who live locally, which leads to stronger communities instead of employing people they know they can exploit more ..


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> They do well knocking on doors in vulnerable neighbourhoods where people aren't confident politically. They persuade people who are already quite close to them in their thinking. They adopt precisely the tactic I'm talking about.



Maybe if the left was more active in these communities, people wouldn't be so near to their thinking.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> There is danger in collusion.
> 
> To act together secretly to achieve a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose; conspire.


 well of course there is but where the fuck am i going to do that!  you know what i do and that world is a long way ( politically) away!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> FM you do not imho think politically .. you have never that i have seen expressed that you are involved in any grassroots community or trade union work .. you never express about HOW we can build strength where we live and work .. i have zero prejudice against migrants .. none absolutely none .. my issue has always been about people demanding their employers employ at proper rates and employ peopel who live locally, which leads to stronger communities instead of employing people they know they can exploit more ..



You are immensely prejudiced against migrants. You regularly promote sons-and-daughters residency and employment regulations. Those intrinsically discriminate against migrants.

I'd be utterly fucked if your ideas ever worked, which they never will, and so would most people on this board.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> well of course there is but where the fuck am i going to do that!  you know what i do and that world is a long way ( politically) away!



Saying it's OK to fear Muslims one day a year?

fuck it, I need to go to bed it's late


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Maybe if the left was more active in these communities, people wouldn't be so near to their thinking.



Ah, and you say you're opposed to 'the vanguard'!


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> Ah, and you say you're opposed to 'the vanguard'!



right. I'm having words with you


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Yes!
> 
> 
> 
> Their support is drawn from...where?



I'm quite clear about the relationship. You're trying to be clever.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You are immensely prejudiced against migrants. You regularly promote sons-and-daughters residency and employment regulations. Those intrinsically discriminate against migrants.
> 
> I'd be utterly fucked if your ideas ever worked, which they never will, and so would most people on this board.



 you are talking shite .. 

1) i do not promote regulations but say w/c should demand "sons and daughters" from their employers and landlords etc
2) that does not make anyone prejudiced against immigrants 
3) i think it is sad anyone can get that so wrong  

if i am so prejudiced against immigrants someone should tell all the gujerati muslims i help at work and the gujerati, afro caribean, spanish and irish stewards i work with! of an have a word with my non english migrant dad and partially jewish mum .. 

fuck me FM i think you have these things  more upside down than anyone else on here


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

I also have lots of immigrant friends!


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Saying it's OK to fear Muslims one day a year?
> 
> fuck it, I need to go to bed it's late


 it was a little piece of rhetoric that said IF people were going to be irrational one day a year then this was the day that you could at least understand it!! yes go to bed .. i need to too! hopefully you over your bug??


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

your mum.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

"say w/c should demand "sons and daughters" from their employers and landlords" = thanks, yeah. that's what I was saying. Explain to me how that could possibly do anything but deny jobs and living places to migrants in the area _purely on the basis of where they were born_ if it worked, which it wouldn't as their employers and landlords wouldn't pay any attention, but assuming it did.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I also have lots of immigrant friends!



fuck off .. FM you never actually deal with what people say .. you what you THINK they say .. pretty poor example as a mod .. you accuse me of all sort of offensive shit then don't back it up .. it is bullshit


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

/me yawns


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "say w/c should demand "sons and daughters" from their employers and landlords" = thanks, yeah. that's what I was saying. Explain to me how that could possibly do anything but deny jobs and living places to migrants in the area _purely on the basis of where they were born_ if it worked, which it wouldn't as their employers and landlords wouldn't pay any attention, but assuming it did.


 yes of course it would deny a pole a job of a local kid gets that job ... but that is entirely differrent to prejudice against migrants as you fucking know .. it is about trying to create strong communities that ONE FUCKING DAY can change the world instead of just whining at all the shite that goe son


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

yeah, it's entirely different

except for the fact that it's precisely the same - are you on drugs? Stopping migrants from getting jobs because they're migrants is entirely different from being prejudiced against migrants? What?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> /me yawns


 yep as i thought no attempt so say " ok i  must be wrong in my bullshit accusations maybe i need to read what he is saying again and try to understand it" ..


----------



## TheDave (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes of course it would deny a pole a job of a local kid gets that job ... but that is entirely differrent to prejudice against migrants as you fucking know .. it is about trying to create strong communities that ONE FUCKING DAY can change the world instead of just whining at all the shite that goe son



What are we doing tonight Brain? Same thing we do every night Pinky, try to take ove... I mean try to change the WORLD. MUHAHAHAHA.

/coughs

As you were.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> yeah, it's entirely different
> 
> except for the fact that it's precisely the same - are you on drugs?


 to be prejudice against migrants is to say they are inferior they are dirty they are theives they are colonisers etc etc etc .. i have NO prejudice against migrants


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> fuck me FM i think you have these things  more upside down than anyone else on here



which really means (punctuation is optional in durruti02's world):

SHEEEEEEET FM is onto me will try to make out it's him not me hope noone else here has noticed


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> to be prejudice against migrants is to say they are inferior they are dirty they are theives they are colonisers etc etc etc .. i have NO prejudice against migrants



Yeah, it's not prejudiced if you just _stop them from getting jobs or housing_ - which you've repeatedly stated you want - as long as you don't call them names.


----------



## tarannau (Sep 12, 2009)

Jesus Christ, this is like watching a moron dig a giant hole for themselves.

I've called you an apologist for the BNP/EDl plenty of times here, but you really are excelling yourself in exposing yourself as a hopeless bigot Durrutti. You're an unpleasant joke.


----------



## STFC (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> I think the point is that there are a mixed bag of people in the EDL.  Some people have been taken in by the "we're not racist guv" stuff.  Surely it's worth trying to steer them away from the right?



But on the face of it, they're not racist - they're anti-extremism. I reckon at least some of the people running EDL/CU truly believe that as well, hence the "Black & White Unite" banners etc. After the Athens Olympics, the UBA (which appears to be a forerunner to EDL/CU - I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same people are involved) had a banner saying "Amir Khan, we're proud of you".

I don't know much about the leadership of EDL/CU, but I have a pretty good idea of the sort of lads who make up their numbers. 10 years ago I probably would have been one of them. They are a mixed bag, like you say: some will be opposed to Islamism (nothing wrong with that) and intelligent enough to know the difference between muslims and extremists, but a lot will simply be anti-Islam/muslims in general. There will be a smattering of your hardcore racist NF types, plus a fair few of my particular favourites, the "I'm not racist, I just don't like p*kis" brigade.

Try as they might to push the "we're not racist, we're anti-extremism" line, the leadership willl have an impossible task on their hands trying to keep a lid on that lot. They're up for a fight, and they know they'll get one. The muslim youth will continue to turn out to defend their areas/mosques, understandably so, with or without the 'help' of UAF.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> But on the face of it, they're not racist - they're anti-extremism.



Although don't expect them to be protesting against the extreme far right any time soon. 

And yesterday's protest was against the building of a mosque in Harrow. That is a sure indicator that they're separating the militant Islamists from the wider Muslim community...


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2009)

Why are some people so ready to buy the 'we aint racist guv, honest' line?


----------



## STFC (Sep 12, 2009)

Ok, anti-Islamic extremism then if we're being pedantic.

Yesterday's demo was called by SIOE, not EDL/CU. There's undoubtedy some crossover, but they are, as far as I am aware, different organisations.


----------



## STFC (Sep 12, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Why are some people so ready to buy the 'we aint racist guv, honest' line?



Much easier just to label them all as Nazis, isn't it.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> Ok, anti-Islamic extremism then if we're being pedantic.
> 
> Yesterday's demo was called by SIOE, not EDL/CU. There's undoubtedy some crossover, but they are, as far as I am aware, different organisations.



Both groups seem to have the same stated 'aims'. 



DotCommunist said:


> Why are some people so ready to buy the 'we aint racist guv, honest' line?



I'm not. They're singling out a specific group of people for persecution. And because it's Muslims there's plenty of folk who'll let it slide. A bit like attitudes to Jews in 1930s Germany.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> Much easier just to label them all as Nazis, isn't it.



yes I'm being that simplistic. tool. You desperately want to believe this is genuine english nationalism and not thinly veiled paki-bashing by beered up hoolies.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> Much easier just to label them all as Nazis, isn't it.



If it looks like a pig and acts like a pig then why label it a dog?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> do you NEVER forgive people for being AFRAID? of being irrrational?? is everyone here soooo fucking righteous?? none of you have any littel irrationalities any little secret fears? you you deny ANYONE else theirs? hmmm and you wonder why no one fucking listens to you?? lol
> 
> a bit of rhetoric and the rattles are flying out the prams .. suprised at you though
> 
> "9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred)"



Of course I have my irrational hatreds, but that's against twats like Ant n Dec, Coldplay, Jamie Oliver because they're cunts. Not against a whole swathe of the populace simply because of their nominal membership of a racial/religious group. And let's be clear here, those people yesterday were not expressing their 'fear' of Islamism but their dislike/hatred/prejudice of Muslims.

There is a fundamental difference in understanding why someone thinks a certain way and how that can be countered and making it clear that one day a year you can have a flurry of hatred and prejudice against a certain section of society. You  are giving them carte blanche to demondtrate that prejudice not understanding it. And before you make some facile point i'm not saying their demo should have been banned or denied free speech etc. Maybe it's how you wrote it maybe not but it was a fucking silly thimng to write/say in such a 'bald' way. 

I'm also wondering what this 'Islamification of Europe' is that they're protesting about?


----------



## STFC (Sep 12, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> yes I'm being that simplistic. tool. You desperately want to believe this is genuine english nationalism and not thinly veiled paki-bashing by beered up hoolies.



Er, no I don't. Did you read my rather long post?


----------



## STFC (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Both groups seem to have the same stated 'aims'.



No, they don't.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> No, they don't.



Right. Well I should perhaps do some reading up on them then. But from what I gather they both oppose radical Islam yet stir up the entire Muslim community with their 'peaceful' protests, no? 

Maybe you could enlighten me on their different stated 'aims'?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Sep 12, 2009)

The Communities Minister has just compared the EDL to Mosley's blackshirts


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes of course it would deny a pole a job of a local kid gets that job ... but that is entirely differrent to prejudice against migrants as you fucking know .. it is about trying to create strong communities that ONE FUCKING DAY can change the world instead of just whining at all the shite that goe son


Narrow localism is not the answer it feeds into prejudice and bigotry. Building common class interests with immigrants is the way, making links not building barriers.


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> But on the face of it, they're not racist - they're anti-extremism. I reckon at least some of the people running EDL/CU truly believe that as well, hence the "Black & White Unite" banners etc. After the Athens Olympics, the UBA (which appears to be a forerunner to EDL/CU - I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same people are involved) had a banner saying "Amir Khan, we're proud of you".
> 
> I don't know much about the leadership of EDL/CU, but I have a pretty good idea of the sort of lads who make up their numbers. 10 years ago I probably would have been one of them. They are a mixed bag, like you say: some will be opposed to Islamism (nothing wrong with that) and intelligent enough to know the difference between muslims and extremists, but a lot will simply be anti-Islam/muslims in general. There will be a smattering of your hardcore racist NF types, plus a fair few of my particular favourites, the "I'm not racist, I just don't like p*kis" brigade.
> 
> Try as they might to push the "we're not racist, we're anti-extremism" line, the leadership willl have an impossible task on their hands trying to keep a lid on that lot. They're up for a fight, and they know they'll get one. The muslim youth will continue to turn out to defend their areas/mosques, understandably so, with or without the 'help' of UAF.



Summed them up pretty well I think.  Crucial to recognise that with casuals involved, the idea of hierarchy controlling members goes out the window.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

Badger Kitten said:


> The Communities Minister has just compared the EDL to Mosley's blackshirts



The spin being put on last nights events are quite staggering, even by todays standards.

From listening to the radio and TV you would think that the EDL rioted yesterday rather than it being 99% Muslim youths causing all the trouble. It is doing nothing to allay the fears that some people have about double standards when it comes to how groups are percieved and treated.

I am beginning to think that the EDL are starting to scare people in Government and that their only way of countering their stance is to try just and play the Nazi card which, as in the case of the BNP, has not been that much of a success.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> The spin being put on last nights events are quite staggering, even by todays standards.
> 
> From listening to the radio and TV you would think that the EDL rioted yesterday rather tha*n it being 99% Muslim youths causing all the trouble*. It is doing nothing to allay the fears that some people have about double standards when it comes to how groups are percieved and treated.
> 
> I am beginning to think that the EDL are starting to scare people in Government and that the only way of countering their stance is to try just and play the Nazi card which, as in the case of the BNP, has not been that much of a success.



1) source

2) How would you feel if a muslim group carrying anti christian banners and calling for churches to be closed marched through a predominately white area?


You'd be spitting blood, wouldn't you?


----------



## likesfish (Sep 12, 2009)

edl have a brilliant tactic.
 leaflet going to have a demo in a mostly muslim area/ outside a mosque. 
  Queue large mob of muslim youth turning up to fight the yobs as normal.
  plenty of pictures of angry brown people attacking the police job done


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> it being 99% Muslim youths causing all the trouble.



The local Muslims weren't the aggressor. The catalyst for the trouble came from an external threat masquerading as a 'peaceful' protest.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> 1) source
> 
> 2) How would you feel if a muslim group carrying anti christian banners and calling for churches to be closed marched through a predominately white area?
> 
> ...



Very much so.

But if me and my fellow protesters reacted in the way that happened yesterday then the condemnation of us would have been far more vitriolic and no doubt with people spouting on about peoples 'right' to protest and so on. And thats the difference. 

It is this reality/perception of double standards that is one of the root causes of much of the tension that is growing in this country and I would suggest one of the reasons why groups such as the EDL have appeared.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Very much so.
> 
> But if me and my fellow protesters reacted in the way that happened yesterday then the condemnation of us would have been far more vitriolic and no doubt with people spouting on about peoples 'right' to protest and so on. And thats the difference.
> 
> It is this reality/perception of double standards that is one of the root causes of much of the tension that is growing in this country and I would suggest one of the reasons why groups such as the EDL have appeared.



But where to Protest? 

A protest through central London, fair enough. But to take a protest against 'radical' Islam the the steps of a Mosque is threatening and provocative. It's like the Orange men wanting to march through Catholic districts of NI. Or, indeed, the blackshirts along cable street.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> But where to Protest?
> 
> A protest through central London, fair enough. But to take a protest against 'radical' Islam the the steps of a Mosque is threatening and provocative. It's like the Orange men wanting to march through Catholic districts of NI. Or, indeed, the blackshirts along cable street.



Fine then. But would you then expact the UAF not to protest in areas that the BNP have been elected in ? Or is that different ?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2009)

That statement by denham was put out _yesterday morning_ (ie before last nights events) in a transparent attempt to focus media attention on the govts feeble efforts to win back it's alienated trad vote before the general election. Standard stuff, desperate, but standard. See this post here for a proper debunking. Total hyperbole.


----------



## purplex (Sep 12, 2009)

The EDL Talksport interview.
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/activism_non_profit/watch/v18874319CZcmHcZe

sorry some of the images on there are utterly disgusting.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Fine then. But would you then expact the UAF not to protest in areas that the BNP have been elected in ? Or is that different ?



Because the BNP is an orthadox religion?


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Fine then. But would you then expact the UAF not to protest in areas that the BNP have been elected in ? Or is that different ?


Is voting BNP different from being jewish or muslim? You're seriously asking that question?


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 12, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> 1) source


The BBC report says the EDL called off their demo and told supporters not to go. The video on the article also shows only Muslim youths rampaging and rioting against the police. 

It seems to me this country is on the verge of a race war. Tensions have reached boiling point in many parts of the country and the worst is yet to come as the EDL are planning on events up North where the previous race riots were. 

Whether it is an intentional consequence or not, the EDL's protests and the UAF's response have had the effect of putting 100s of young Muslims on the streets rioting. That's the impression the EDL/BNP want to give people, and the opposite impression UAF want to give people (if they actually care). 

The EDL don't even have to turn up any more to guarantee police are attacked by hundreds of Muslim youths it would appear and to the wider public that looks terrible. 



> 2) How would you feel if a muslim group carrying anti christian banners and calling for churches to be closed marched through a predominately white area?


Well that is how this whole episode started in the first place. Radical Muslims protested against British troops coming home from Iraq or Afghanistan and pretty much the whole country was disgusted. This led to the original march in Luton by, let's face it, a load of wannabe Danny Dyer Luton Town supporters who were mainly kids. 

Since then the "movement" against Islamic extremism appears to have been hijacked by BNP types and it has been exported around the country. Likewise, the opposition to this has been hijacked by the Anti-Fascists who have ensured the Muslims have turned out on the streets to oppose these demonstrations.

So we basically have a load of right wing football hooligans who like to have a fight, a load of left wing football hooligans who like to have a fight, and a load of Muslim youths who like to have a fight, all whipped up into a frenzy by various forces and it's spilled out onto our streets and is about to get out of control and every group that has been involved needs to take some responsibility for that and look and what their actions have resulted in and what they will result in in the future...


----------



## likesfish (Sep 12, 2009)

its an irrational belief and an excuse for violence


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Because the BNP is an orthadox religion?



So its fine to protest again a political party but not against a religion ?


----------



## likesfish (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> Is voting BNP different from being jewish or muslim? You're seriously asking that question?



its an irrational belief ana an excuse for violence


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> 1) source
> 
> 2) How would you feel if a muslim group carrying anti christian banners and calling for churches to be closed marched through a predominately white area?
> 
> ...



Pedantic but Harrow is not even a predominantly Muslim area.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> So its fine to protest again a political party but not against a religion ?



The police have to separate the two groups in both instances to prevent trouble. Do you assume that I'm in the UAF or something?  

But one protest is clearly racism and the other one isn't.


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

purplex said:


> The EDL Talksport interview.
> http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/activism_non_profit/watch/v18874319CZcmHcZe
> 
> sorry some of the images on there are utterly disgusting.



'The left wing station 'Talksport'.  

Bloody hell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> Fine then. But would you then expact the UAF not to protest in areas that the BNP have been elected in ? Or is that different ?


i never had you down for a shitfer before. i wonder why not.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> But one protest is clearly racism and the other one isn't.



As I understand things the protest was organised by a group calling for a stop to the 'Islamification' of Europe. A group which I understand does not define itself on racial grounds.

The stench of the sort of double standards that lay as one of the root causes of the current tension is alive and well on here, without a shadow of a doubt along with hyprocrisy because if this had been a group protesting at the site of a new super Church being build by an evangelical Christian group and a similar reaction had ensued are you HONESTLY telling me you would be placing the blame for that on the instigators of the protest ?


----------



## Davo1 (Sep 12, 2009)

> The EDL Talksport interview.
> http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/ca...874319CZcmHcZe
> 
> sorry some of the images on there are utterly disgusting.



The description of that video is BRILLIANT:

Lionheart interview with Adrian Goldberg from the *Left Wing station Talksport.*


----------



## Spion (Sep 12, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Why are some people so ready to buy the 'we aint racist guv, honest' line?


I think for some on here it is their supposed 'anti-vanguardist' brand of politics coupled with an idea of the working class that is basically white. By this thinking the working class spontaneously generates and struggles on 'self identified issues' (Butchers et al Urban threads passim). So when working class people 'self identify' immigration, Muslims, mosques etc as a problem the anti-vanguardists get in a spin. They're uncomfortable with what their favoured section of the w/c has come up with but at the same time tend to give it some creedence while seeing the response from the parts of the working class they don't like - the left, anti-fasc, non-white etc - as alien, as made up, as being imposed from outside the w/c


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

> The BBC report says the EDL called off their demo and told supporters not to go. The video on the article also shows only Muslim youths rampaging and rioting against the police.



It wasn't the EDL, it was organised by SIOE, which is a small but international organisation. The protesters who attended were a mixed bag, but the 'respectable' objecters to the Mosque didn't turn up, but gangs of young asian youths did, some legitimate, some just looking for a fight, many masked and looking like Mujahadeen. Clearly there were also some young radical Islamists egging them on,these are the images most people, the 97% of people who are not Muslim will remember. They will I fear, start to 'demand 'something must be done to stop this anarchy' and like Bradford, the Muslim youth will take the pain. They, and particulalry the SWP/UAF like the EDL are playing with fire, the Tories will likely be in power soon and I suspect their 'community cohesion' policies will be somewhat different to NL's.


----------



## purplex (Sep 12, 2009)

CyberRose said:


> It seems to me this country is on the verge of a race war. Tensions have reached boiling point in many parts of the country and the worst is yet to come as the EDL are planning on events up North where the previous race riots were.



Unlikely, the numbers attending these events are tiny and decreasing. They seem to have been successfully marginalized to the point where it is becoming ridiculously unsafe to mob up because they are outnumbered massively.

Tomorrow's the next flashpoint.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> As I understand things the protest was organised by a group calling for a stop to the 'Islamification' of Europe. A group which I understand does not define itself on racial grounds.



They can define themselves however they like but they're still singling out a group of people who happen to be predominantly Asian for persecution. Which happens to be racism despite their squeals to the contrary. 



> The stench of the sort of double standards that lay as one of the root causes of the current tension is alive and well on here, without a shadow of a doubt along with hyprocrisy because if this had been a group protesting at the site of a new super Church being build by an evangelical Christian group and a similar reaction had ensued are you HONESTLY telling me you would be placing the blame for that on the instigators of the protest ?



There's no double standards. I've been on several anti-war marches yet hold the view that the Muslims who turned up to the Soldiers' homecoming parade were insensitive; it was _as_ provocative as last night's organised protest.

If Muslims protested against a church it would be the same deal in my view. So perhaps you'd like to point me to evidence of an instance of that actually happening instead of throwing around hypothetical scenarios with me in order to prove a moot point?


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> They're uncomfortable with what their favoured section of the w/c has come up with but at the same time tend to give it some creedence while seeing the response from the parts of the working class they don't like - the left, anti-fasc, non-white etc - as alien, as made up, as being imposed from outside the w/c



So now the critics of the response don't like non whites?


----------



## purplex (Sep 12, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> 'The left wing station 'Talksport'.
> 
> Bloody hell.



innit


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

> A race riot erupted outside one of Britain's biggest mosques on the anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks.
> 
> Police moved in after several hundred angry Muslim youths threw sticks and stones and charged at about a dozen anti-Islamic demonstrators.




The mass circulation Mirror is describing last nights events as a 'race riot' it also notes the disparity in numbers, this is significant and will alarm its millions of readers, of all colours....

not good is it?


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> If Muslims protested against a church it would be the same deal in my view. So perhaps you'd like to point me to evidence of an instance of that actually happening instead of throwing around hypothetical scenarios with me in order to prove a moot point?




But this was not a group of Christians protesting against this Mosque. I would assume that the SIOE grouping are secular. 

So my question stands. If a secular group protested against the building of a Christian Church and it garnered the reaction it did would you condem the group protesting as opposed to those who reacted against it ?


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

purplex said:


> innit



Surprised they never picked up on Goldberg either.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

> But Weyman Bennett, of United Against Facism, said holding the protest outside a mosque on September 11 was inciting violence.
> 
> He added: "They are not involved in any kind of real politics, but wrapping a swastika around the Union Jack."




Bennett with his usual level of accuracy and sophisticated analysis,


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> Surprised they never picked up on Goldberg either.



The pictures of EDL supporters with Stars of David might give an indication why.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

> But they were greeted by anti-fascist groups. The mood soured when 100 Islam supporters, some wearing provocative slogans, broke off to chase anti-mosque marchers.



I wonder what these provocative slogans where


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I think for some on here it is their supposed 'anti-vanguardist' brand of politics coupled with an idea of the working class that is basically white. By this thinking the working class spontaneously generates and struggles on 'self identified issues' (Butchers et al Urban threads passim). So when working class people 'self identify' immigration, Muslims, mosques etc as a problem the anti-vanguardists get in a spin. They're uncomfortable with what their favoured section of the w/c has come up with but at the same time tend to give it some creedence while seeing the response from the parts of the working class they don't like - the left, anti-fasc, non-white etc - as alien, as made up, as being imposed from outside the w/c



Bullshit, so both the hard-leninist and the anarcho-pacifist suggest that i'm racist. What a revealing little united front. 

My position on this has been clear from the very start, there's been no getting in 'a spin' - the EDL and the organisations and activities its grew out of are politically incoherent, based around a common anti-Islam 'feeling' which makes them ripe for being used for provocations by the more ideologically committed, and that their interests are exactly in line with any fundies on the other side - i said after Luton #1 that they'd both love for this to escalate into a national thing, and if it did the only long term winners would be the BNP, which is why responses had to be tactically thought through, beyond the level of _there they are get them - ugh_. That tactical thinking didn't happen and now it has escalated, and the BNP are now rubbing their hands in glee. 

Through puffing up the threat of these idiots racial tensions have been increased - the BNP can sit pretty by condemning the EDL and formally proscribing them and threatening to expel members invovled whilst picking up the votes that come from the increasing racial tension in their key areas in the west midlands (Stoke, Sandwell, Dudley etc). Rather than just leave it alone and let the local Asians deal with it as they undoubtedly would have done  (I’ve never once denied or tried to argue that the local Muslims and asians should not deal with this as they see fit) it's now become something else entirely - exactly as the EDL wanted and exactly as their mirror images on the other side wanted.  Through chasing after this pathetic little band who’ve been trying without success to get this level of attention ever since 911 the situation has deteriorated  considerably and put race right back at the top of the political agenda.

As for class, if you think i've defended the EDL on grounds of class (i've not defended them at all, not for one single second, for the record) then you're straight up lying. But then, just like the EDL you do need to fit everyone into your little model.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> So my question stands. If a secular group protested against the building of a Christian Church and it garnered the reaction it did would you condem the group protesting as opposed to those who reacted against it ?



But the two are not comparable. If the group being protested against in your hypothetical situation faced a credible threat from political extremists and was regularly slated in the mainstream press then the two instances might be in the same post code. Until then...


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 12, 2009)

treelover said:


> The mass circulation Mirror is describing last nights events as a 'race riot' it also notes the disparity in numbers, this is significant and will alarm its millions of readers, of all colours....
> 
> not good is it?



Somewhat irresponsible of The Mirror and over sensationalist I would say. If there were only a dozen EDL for a fairly well publicised demo in London on a Friday I'd say that is a silver lining.

I was talking to a UAF organiser last night who seemed to me to be over optimistic about EDL being a busted flush. But that stat gives me hope if it is true.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Through puffing up the threat of these idiots racial tensions have been increased - the BNP can sit pretty by condemning the EDL and formally proscribing them and threatening to expel members invovled whilst picking up the votes that come from the increasing racial tension in their key areas in the west midlands (Stoke, Sandwell, Dudley etc). *Rather than just leave it alone and let the local Asians deal with it as they undoubtedly would have done  (I’ve never once denied or tried to argue that the local Muslims and asians should not deal with this as they see fit)* it's now become something else entirely - exactly as the EDL wanted and exactly as their mirror images on the other side wanted.  Through chasing after this pathetic little band who’ve been trying without success to get this level of attention ever since 911 the situation has deteriorated  considerably and pout rae right back at the top of the agenda.
> 
> As for class, if you think i've defended the EDL on grounds of class (i've not defended them at all, not for one single second, for the record) then you're straight up lying. But then, just like the EDL you do need to fit everyone into your little model.



And in this lies the crux of the double standards that the left have with regards to this issue. Muslims and/or Asians should not be allowed to deal with protests as they see fit because we are meant to have the rule of law and order in this country.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2009)

_Any_ community etc - i didn't say asian communites exclusively. Frankly, i'm not interested in the rule of law either.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Sep 12, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> _Any_ community etc - i didn't say asian communites exclusively. Frankly, i'm not interested in the rule of law either.



So a community that has defined its BNP through electing local councillors would be, by your definition, fine to decide how it dealt with UAF protesters ?


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Somewhat irresponsible of The Mirror and over sensationalist I would say. If there were only a dozen EDL for a fairly well publicised demo in London on a Friday I'd say that is a silver lining.
> 
> I was talking to a UAF organiser last night who seemed to me to be over optimistic about EDL being a busted flush. But that stat gives me hope if it is true.



Do they believe the EDL were there yesterday?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> So a community that has defined its BNP through electing local councillors would be, by your definition, fine to decide how it dealt with UAF protesters ?



The very idea of a BNP community defined by elected councillors is an idiocy - councillors are elected as a tiny majority of the local community (never mind the electorate or those who actually vote), nearly all of them are anyway. And sas i said above, rights and legality are neither here nor there - if someone walks into an area threateningly and attacks the people there they're going to get comeback no matter where they are, what colour or religion they are or what their poltics are.


----------



## STFC (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Right. Well I should perhaps do some reading up on them then. But from what I gather they both oppose radical Islam yet stir up the entire Muslim community with their 'peaceful' protests, no?
> 
> Maybe you could enlighten me on their different stated 'aims'?



Just have a look at their respective websites, like I did.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

I think the Islamists have done well out of Friday, they will  have recruited more followers, some will see that radical islam can be exciting, confrontational, etc, some will go even further....


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> Just have a look at their respective websites, like I did.



Oh right!

It was just that you went to such great pains to point out that there was a difference that I assumed it wouldn't have troubled you to elaborate.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

> here these fascist provocateurs intended to 'protest' were thousands of antifascists attending the UAF's counter-demonstration. It was a very large, tremendously militant, multiracial gathering. But the leadership came from local Muslim kids. By contrast, the only signs of the organised left and labour movement that I saw were 'Unite' flags and Socialist Worker - which is a pity because this should have been a priority for the left, for reasons I will come to.
> 
> http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/09/english-defence-league-humiliated-in.html



It looks like the Trots have finally found their new 'proletariat' 'the wretched of the earth'

even though, a fair few were middle class, doctors, engineers, etc


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

treelover said:


> It looks like the Trots have finally found their new 'proletariat' 'the wretched of the earth'
> 
> even though, a fair few were middle class, doctors, engineers, etc



That blog is so full of mistakes it's untrue.


----------



## STFC (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh right!
> 
> It was just that you went to such great pains to point out that there was a difference that I assumed it wouldn't have troubled you to elaborate.



Great pains! Hardly.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> Great pains! Hardly.



So if it didn't hurt you can elaborate, yes?

Or is the point of a _discussion_ forum for us just to sit around and tell each other to read stuff elsewhere?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2009)

purplex said:


> The EDL Talksport interview.
> http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/activism_non_profit/watch/v18874319CZcmHcZe
> 
> sorry some of the images on there are utterly disgusting.



The EDL spokesman (Paul Ray) says he sought political asylum in the US after being accused of inciting racial hatred on his blog? He is against 'all devout and practicing Muslims'. He believes that 'all Muslims impinge on his life'. Muslims have, according to this joker 'taken over Luton council'. Muslims 'are breeding 10 ten more than society'.

This man is a fucking idiot.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

STFC said:


> But on the face of it, they're not racist - they're anti-extremism. I reckon at least some of the people running EDL/CU truly believe that as well, hence the "Black & White Unite" banners etc. After the Athens Olympics, the UBA (which appears to be a forerunner to EDL/CU - I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same people are involved) had a banner saying "Amir Khan, we're proud of you".
> 
> I don't know much about the leadership of EDL/CU, but I have a pretty good idea of the sort of lads who make up their numbers. 10 years ago I probably would have been one of them. They are a mixed bag, like you say: some will be opposed to Islamism (nothing wrong with that) and intelligent enough to know the difference between muslims and extremists, but a lot will simply be anti-Islam/muslims in general. There will be a smattering of your hardcore racist NF types, plus a fair few of my particular favourites, the "I'm not racist, I just don't like p*kis" brigade.
> 
> Try as they might to push the "we're not racist, we're anti-extremism" line, the leadership willl have an impossible task on their hands trying to keep a lid on that lot. They're up for a fight, and they know they'll get one. The muslim youth will continue to turn out to defend their areas/mosques, understandably so, with or without the 'help' of UAF.


 yes


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Of course I have my irrational hatreds, but that's against twats like Ant n Dec, Coldplay, Jamie Oliver because they're cunts. Not against a whole swathe of the populace simply because of their nominal membership of a racial/religious group. And let's be clear here, those people yesterday were not expressing their 'fear' of Islamism but their dislike/hatred/prejudice of Muslims.
> 
> There is a fundamental difference in understanding why someone thinks a certain way and how that can be countered and making it clear that one day a year you can have a flurry of hatred and prejudice against a certain section of society. You  are giving them carte blanche to demondtrate that prejudice not understanding it. And before you make some facile point i'm not saying their demo should have been banned or denied free speech etc. Maybe it's how you wrote it maybe not but it was a fucking silly thimng to write/say in such a 'bald' way.
> 
> I'm also wondering what this 'Islamification of Europe' is that they're protesting about?



look SIOE ARE a bunch of scum .. actually they are not a bunch ..  i think there is probabaly no more than Stepthen Gash .. this is the crusader / christian nut nut end of the spectrum ..

and apparently 15 people turned up .. if there was no counter demo .. how many?? 50?? 

but we KNOW what these people are like , the differrences etc .. the issue why i am interested in this is HOW it is all being used .. and who is winning the prop war


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> Narrow localism is not the answer it feeds into prejudice and bigotry. Building common class interests with immigrants is the way, making links not building barriers.



yes of course but if you have no power and you are insecure and threatenned how then can you build class interests? this is the "how to get to A to Z" that the left ignore .. 

fascism does not grow in the organised w/c but the unorganised working class the left have always written off


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

likesfish said:


> edl have a brilliant tactic.
> leaflet going to have a demo in a mostly muslim area/ outside a mosque.
> Queue large mob of muslim youth turning up to fight the yobs as normal.
> plenty of pictures of angry brown people attacking the police job done


100%


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Citizen66 said:


> The local Muslims weren't the aggressor. The catalyst for the trouble came from an external threat masquerading as a 'peaceful' protest.


 but there was no one there!! ;D there was no external threat .. a tiny group of nut nuts ... someone has been had


----------



## tarannau (Sep 12, 2009)

You don't build common class interests by pulling up the drawbridge, implementing a sons and daughters policy and making repeated excuses for unpleasant bigots and racists. That's appeasement and self interest only.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> look SIOE ARE a bunch of scum .. actually they are not a bunch ..  i think there is probabaly no more than Stepthen Gash .. this is the crusader / christian nut nut end of the spectrum ..
> 
> and apparently 15 people turned up .. if there was no counter demo .. how many?? 50??
> 
> but we KNOW what these people are like , the differrences etc .. the issue why i am interested in this is HOW it is all being used .. and who is winning the prop war




Yes and? It's your rather injudicious comment about allowing irrational prejudice fear and hatred i'm referring to. At best stupid at worst dangerous.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

CyberRose said:


> The BBC report says the EDL called off their demo and told supporters not to go. The video on the article also shows only Muslim youths rampaging and rioting against the police.
> 
> It seems to me this country is on the verge of a race war. Tensions have reached boiling point in many parts of the country and the worst is yet to come as the EDL are planning on events up North where the previous race riots were.
> 
> ...



yes ^^^ .. we desperately need to do something to ratchet down the tension ..


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Yes and? It's your rather injudicious comment about allowing irrational prejudice fear and hatred i'm referring to. At best stupid at worst dangerous.


 fed read what i said again .. it said IF there was one day you coudl forgive someone to be irrational it would be on 9/11 .. is that REALLY that wrong? .. it is the understadning of irrationality that will win or lose us the future .. the far right have always been the masters of irrationality .. we need to understand it and how to turn it back .. 

blagsta made a very good post bringing in his work as a drugs workers about needing to understand and empathise .. the left have lost all understanding and empathy of the w/c particulalarly the unorganised w/c .. the amount of offensive prejudice by liberal lefties against people because they are a bit racist or moan about immigrants is sick .. it's as if they want people to be perfect before they will support them!! lol unless you think people are born evil, people are the sum of their circumstances .. if we want to WIN instead of just moaning we need to win these people over ..


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> So now the critics of the response don't like non whites?


 or migrants and are bigots blah blah blah


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

Radio 4 PM - transcript of coverage 11th September 2009, 5pm Friday


> This was the scene last Saturday in Birmingham when a group calling itself the English Defence League demonstrated against Islamist extremism. They were met by anti-racist protestors and angry young Asian men.
> 
> It's the latest demonstration from a group that's been accused of trying to launch an anti-Muslim movement.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Radio 4 PM - transcript of coverage 11th September 2009, 5pm Friday


link?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> fed read what i said again .. it said IF there was one day you coudl forgive someone to be irrational it would be on 9/11 .. is that REALLY that wrong? .. it is the understadning of irrationality that will win or lose us the future .. the far right have always been the masters of irrationality .. we need to understand it and how to turn it back ..
> 
> blagsta made a very good post bringing in his work as a drugs workers about needing to understand and empathise .. the left have lost all understanding and empathy of the w/c particulalarly the unorganised w/c .. the amount of offensive prejudice by liberal lefties against people because they are a bit racist or moan about immigrants is sick .. it's as if they want people to be perfect before they will support them!! lol unless you think people are born evil, people are the sum of their circumstances .. if we want to WIN instead of just moaning we need to win these people over ..



Forgive who? People who lost relatives on that day or a bunch of bigotted mugs who don't 'fear' but pretty clearly hate, not just the Anjem Choudhary's of this world but anyone nominally a Muslim. I can certainly understand people who lost loved one's being more than a bit irrational on that date, but not those wankers. Their ideas are not 'understandable' theirs is a nasty dangerous murderous idea... Those 15 mugs-the reaction to it I agree has been whipped up-need nothing of our 'understanding'. Let's be clear, those cunts aren't in need of class politics. You and I know how they'd be dealt with by a progressive working-class movement. 

Where have I moaned about w/c people with immigration concerns? I sent you that article ffs so don't tar me with that brush. If I was you i'd learn how to write things instead of baldly justifying not just worries but gutteral prejudice.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> FM you do not imho think politically .. you have never that i have seen expressed that you are involved in any grassroots community or trade union work .. you never express about HOW we can build strength where we live and work .. i have zero prejudice against migrants .. none absolutely none .. my issue has always been about people demanding their employers employ at proper rates and employ peopel who live locally, which leads to stronger communities instead of employing people they know they can exploit more ..



hey durruti, what do you think the bosses would do if they had a static workforce that wasnt able to move and they happened to be the only employer

dumbass


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qskw
report begins at 0:37:37, no mention of it in intro.

My transcript won't be perfect, so feel free to correct it/add to it.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Yes and? It's your rather injudicious comment about allowing irrational prejudice fear and hatred i'm referring to. At best stupid at worst dangerous.



I'm in the process of responding at length to your question: 'Who are SIOE'. It's long, so hang on and I'll try to get it done by the early evening.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Harold Hill said:


> Do they believe the EDL were there yesterday?


 yes there were people who were on edl demos there bu they are claiming none of their 'members' were ( didnlt know they had membership )

 i think it is hard to say who is EDL tbh .. it was Paul Ray but no longer .. Trevor Kelway seems to be the main spokesperson  and Chris Renton always pops up ... what is sad was i hoped this thread could be used to identify and analysis who was who and who is in charge etc but sadly that has got lost under the avalanche of misinformed bullshit form FM, Spion Tarranau and the usual armchair suspects 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8250017.stm


so EDL facebook (2,100 members) admins are 

Lady England (Karen Marshall?? )
Lady Leisha Lochaber 
Trevor Kelway ( brummie in the vids with the Red Hot Chiili Peppers T SHirt)
'Joe Cardiff' ( Jeff Marsh infamous CCFC Soulcrew leader)
Tommy Robinson ( not sure who he is) 
Richard Price ( west midlands think BNP) 
Lee Beaven ( bristol and creator of the page .. guess he is the west country accent in the balaclava in the castle video) 

"British Citizens Against islamic Extremism" ( 3,250 members) admins are

Joe Cardiff again
Tommy Robinson again 
Richard Price again 
Joel Titus ( the north london mixed race kid, he is 18, and head of the EDY english defence youth) 
David Close ( leicster , look about 16 and pic of him with his arm around a mixed race kid) 

Casuals United facebook used to have lots of people but seems to have gone then come back and now has 279 members ( i'm not on that) 

there also used to be about 30 club based facebooks with the west mids ones the biggest with 150 members each, but they have disapperred .. all the facebooks have been infiltrated  and they are aware and trying to get people off facebook 

someone ( with a PO box  ) needs to order and read and summarise this book asap please 

http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/who-are-casuals-united/7634958

all in all i still can't put my finger on who is running EDL ..

i'd also recommend people get on the EDL forums which seems to be where people are doing business these days . and theres over a 1000 people on there ..


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

http://www.islam4uk.com/current-aff...choudary-addresses-the-english-defence-league

and says it is a war between kuffir and muslims .. sighs


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Forgive who? People who lost relatives on that day or a bunch of bigotted mugs who don't 'fear' but pretty clearly hate, not just the Anjem Choudhary's of this world but anyone nominally a Muslim. I can certainly understand people who lost loved one's being more than a bit irrational on that date, but not those wankers. Their ideas are not 'understandable' theirs is a nasty dangerous murderous idea... Those 15 mugs-the reaction to it I agree has been whipped up-need nothing of our 'understanding'. Let's be clear, those cunts aren't in need of class politics. You and I know how they'd be dealt with by a progressive working-class movement.
> 
> Where have I moaned about w/c people with immigration concerns? I sent you that article ffs so don't tar me with that brush. If I was you i'd learn how to write things instead of baldly justifying not just worries but gutteral prejudice.



fed we are entirely at cross purposes if you think i am excusing the stephen gashes/paul rays of this world anything .. that post i made was about non political  people in the wider community who are watching this


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qskw
> report begins at 0:37:37, no mention of it in intro.
> 
> My transcript won't be perfect, so feel free to correct it/add to it.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8250017.stm


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> fed we are entirely at cross purposes if you think i am excusing the stephen gashes/paul rays of this world anything .. that post i made was about non political  people in the wider community who are watching this



Your remarks had no qualifications at all. You simply excused prejudice without any explanations.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> hey durruti, what do you think the bosses would do if they had a static workforce that wasnt able to move and they happened to be the only employer
> 
> dumbass


   are you in a trade unions smokedout? i have argued consistently ( and clearly you have ignored it ) for years that WORKERS must control labour NOT the employers .. currently the employers contol labour and import and export it where they like 

this is the basis of trade unionism .. that WE the ordinary people, the workers, whatever you want, control labour .. without us  controlling labour the bosses access to workers or when the bosses control labour movement we have NO power .. IT IS WHY WE HAVE NO POWER NOW!! everyone in this country knows that if they kick off they can be replaced .. that was NOT the case 30 years ago  .. getting rid of this was the WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THATCHERISM .. only where workers have a monopoly or control do we have any power to control anything .. this is the only real task we have at the moment .. re establishing this control both locally and in workplaces


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Your remarks had no qualifications at all. You simply excused prejudice without any explanations.



" Originally Posted by Spion  
what should be the response when a bunch of racists turns up to blame an entire relgious group for an act they didn't do?"

"D02 .. an entirely peaceful rememberence service for 9/11 with clear opposition to Islamist terrorism would have been appropriate yet the blurb from UAF etc concentrates on Islamophobia and utterly ignores it's timing of 9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred ) and they do not even mention 9/11 .. they have NO brains in the swp at the moment" 

that is fine enough qualification ..


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> " Originally Posted by Spion
> what should be the response when a bunch of racists turns up to blame an entire relgious group for an act they didn't do?"
> 
> "D02 .. an entirely peaceful rememberence service for 9/11 with clear opposition to Islamist terrorism would have been appropriate yet the blurb from UAF etc concentrates on Islamophobia and utterly ignores it's timing of 9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred ) and they do not even mention 9/11 .. they have NO brains in the swp at the moment"
> ...



Put the goalposts back, that's not the remark I was referring to.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> are you in a trade unions smokedout? i have argued consistently ( and clearly you have ignored it ) for years that WORKERS must control labour NOT the employers .. currently the employers contol labour and import and export it where they like



so are you advocating this strategy of workers councils deciding where people can live as a post capitalist method of organisation or as a radical reformist measure in the here and now


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Put the goalposts back, that's not the remark I was referring to.



yes it was  

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9684356&postcount=1166


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> so are you advocating this strategy of workers councils deciding where people can live as a post capitalist method of organisation or as a radical reformist measure in the here and now


 yes .. simply .. the slogan of the IWCA sums it up .. "working class control in w/c area" having that as a clear aim is the most revolutionary slogan for decades in this country .. and it is practical .. working through tenants and residenst groups and through trade unions .. it is what a lot of us do anyway while the left and the @s run around squawking like teenagers who daddy didn't give the car keys to

oops sorry didnlt read your post properly 

so both .. it is both aim and engine


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes it was
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9684356&postcount=1166



This is the phrase *"it's timing of 9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred )"*, without any caveats it's a justification of irrational prejudices not an understanding.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> This is the phrase *"it's timing of 9/11 the one day of the year people can be forgiven being islamophobic ( and i am sure you know phobia is fear NOT hatred )"*, without any caveats it's a justification of irrational prejudices not an understanding.



but the whole post has the caveats .. and tbh this is really not the issue


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but the whole post has the caveats .. and tbh this is really not the issue



Not that that point it doesn't. You made a stupid bald comment. Of course it's not 'your' issue, you made that stupid remark and you're not happy it's being brought up.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Sep 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> so are you advocating this strategy of workers councils deciding where people can live as a post capitalist method of organisation or as a radical reformist measure in the here and now



Working class communities that are strong enough to actually assert a bit of control over their resources, should and would use that control to decide who exactly to share them with, and on what basis, including on what basis to except new applicants into the community or indeed anti social and disruptive elements already within it - just like a worker's coop company or a credit union decides whether to accept people or not.

It's really not that strange a concept.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 12, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Working class communities that are strong enough to actually assert a bit of control over their resources, should and would use that control to decide who exactly to share them with, and on what basis, including on what basis to except new applicants into the community or indeed anti social and disruptive elements already within it - just like a worker's coop company or a credit union decides whether to accept people or not.
> 
> It's really not that strange a concept.



most working class communities in the UK no longer have resources other than labour, tho i have no problem with what you say in a post capitalist world at all

but as a strategy for getting there it makes no sense at all to force labour to be confined to one place whilst capital is free to roam, it will only strengthen the grip of the bosses, not diminish it


----------



## yield (Sep 12, 2009)

I was at the demonstration yesterday. The dozen or so EDL supporters I saw had been penned in by the Police behind the Civic centre. They were outnumbered by journalists.

Didn't see any clashes between youths and the Police. Although a group did chase someone into the Civic shouting that he was Cid.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Not that that point it doesn't. You made a stupid bald comment. Of course it's not 'your' issue, you made that stupid remark and you're not happy it's being brought up.


 i really have no concerns over that comment .. i am happy to forgive people lots .. it seems to be what divides me and people i know with the hectoring lecturing left .. we shall have to disagree .. and really, it is NOT the issue


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> Working class communities that are strong enough to actually assert a bit of control over their resources, should and would use that control to decide who exactly to share them with, and on what basis, including on what basis to except new applicants into the community or indeed anti social and disruptive elements already within it - just like a worker's coop company or a credit union decides whether to accept people or not.
> 
> It's really not that strange a concept.


 yes agree totally .. the stronger the community usually the more inclusive and welcoming


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i really have no concerns over that comment .. i am happy to forgive people lots .. it seems to be what divides me and people i know with the hectoring lecturing left .. we shall have to disagree .. and really, it is NOT the issue



What divides you and others is that others, including those who share much of your view here, don't make such fucking silly comments. Comments made even sillier by your refusal or inability to see how it reads.


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 12, 2009)

purplex said:


> Unlikely, the numbers attending these events are tiny and decreasing. They seem to have been successfully marginalized to the point where it is becoming ridiculously unsafe to mob up because they are outnumbered massively.


You seem unaware of what occurred at the last race riots, it was Asians rioting against the police, rather than romantic battles against fascists. The fascists stoked the flames then sat back and watched the entertainment. We've now reached the situation where the fascists only have to _say_ they'd like to protest somewhere and not even bother to turn up for all the Asians, whipped up by the anti-fascists, to turn out and attack the police. That's what the fascists want because they want everyone in the country to view the Asians as they view the Asians. 

By goading young Asian hooligans into attacking the police (which is what has happened at pretty much every demo so far), the anti-fascists are playing right into the hands of the fascists. 

We have three groups at play here, and all of them are violent thugs. There's no religion or ideology as much as the actors might try to hide behind. It's no different to football violence where you pick a team and fight the other team. The anti-fascists love violence, the fascists (with large support from football hooligans) love violence and the Asian gangs love violence. 

The anti-fascists need to take a long hard look at the absolute damage they are doing to race relations in this country by inciting Asian gangs into committing violence because they are doing the BNP's job for them...


----------



## yield (Sep 12, 2009)

CyberRose said:


> You seem unaware of what occurred at the last race riots, it was Asians rioting against the police, rather than romantic battles against fascists. The fascists stoked the flames then sat back and watched the entertainment. We've now reached the situation where the fascists only have to _say_ they'd like to protest somewhere and not even bother to turn up for all the Asians, whipped up by the anti-fascists, to turn out and attack the police. That's what the fascists want because they want everyone in the country to view the Asians as they view the Asians.



I was in Harrow yesterday. EDL supporters did turn up. The youths were not rioting.


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 12, 2009)

yield said:


> I was in Harrow yesterday. EDL supporters did turn up. The youths were not rioting.


How many turned up?

The BBC article says the organisers called it off and told people not to go.

Oh and don't bullshit me about the Asian gangs not rioting because every man and his dog has seen the video on the BBC website


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2009)

..


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

yield said:


> I was at the demonstration yesterday. The dozen or so EDL supporters I saw had been penned in by the Police behind the Civic centre. They were outnumbered by journalists.
> 
> Didn't see any clashes between youths and the Police. Although a group did chase someone into the Civic shouting that he was Cid.



Yesterday, the protest was organised by SIOE.


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 12, 2009)

Jesus two replies and both nit picking over tiny little points while completely ignoring the major point that the anti-fascists are fuelling a race war in this country which seems a pretty fucking stupid thing to do considering they're supposed to be _anti_-fascists


----------



## tarannau (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh please. There's about as much chance of an imminent race war as there is of Phil Collins winning Mr Universe.

I wonder why people are so keen to exaggerate and grossly oversimplify the groups involved. Yes, folks want to confront the EDL, but if they're asian and go along to protest it doesn't automatically qualify them for membership of an organised asian hooligan gang.


----------



## yield (Sep 12, 2009)

CyberRose said:


> How many turned up?
> 
> The BBC article says the organisers called it off and told people not to go.
> 
> Oh and don't bullshit me about the Asian gangs not rioting because every man and his dog has seen the video on the BBC website



As I said in the post invisibleplanet quoted I only saw around a dozen men penned in by the Police behind the Civic by Churchill Place Estate. They were surrounded by journalists.

Is this the BBC footage? It starts off on the bridge over Harrow and Wealdstone station. I was opposite Costcutter so didn't see that. People were saying that some SIOE supporters had turned up in a car. A load of youths ran off up the bridge. The riot Police tried to block them off.

I was there for hours. It was all pretty tame with groups of kids running around on rumours.



invisibleplanet said:


> Yesterday, the protest was organised by SIOE.



You're right.


----------



## Silver_Fox (Sep 12, 2009)

durutti you seem to constantly come across as hectoring. Like you are the one with the one true vision. And it is, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so frustrating that those libwals on the far left won't listen to you.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 12, 2009)

yield said:


> Is this the BBC footage?



thats not a riot

 is a riot


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> thats not a riot
> 
> is a riot



You're right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> thats not a riot
> 
> is a riot


one of the irritating things about the media is the way when they refer to the maydays '00 '01 '02 '03 they describe them as the mayday riots. when what happened was but scuffles. and when the media were reporting on the dsei do the day before (ie 7/09) they said that there were fears it would get violent like the g20. excuse me? the preponderance of violence on 1/04 was from the filth. takes the fucking piss - any minor ruck's a riot these days, whereas - as you say - a riot's somewhat more than a scrap with the old bill


----------



## e19896 (Sep 12, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> one of the irritating things about the media is the way when they refer to the maydays '00 '01 '02 '03 they describe them as the mayday riots. when what happened was but scuffles. and when the media were reporting on the dsei do the day before (ie 7/09) they said that there were fears it would get violent like the g20. excuse me? the preponderance of violence on 1/04 was from the filth. takes the fucking piss - any minor ruck's a riot these days, whereas - as you say - a riot's somewhat more than a scrap with the old bill


<cut and paste snipped for the millionth time, 24h ban - FM>


----------



## CyberRose (Sep 12, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Oh please. There's about as much chance of an imminent race war as there is of Phil Collins winning Mr Universe.
> 
> I wonder why people are so keen to exaggerate and grossly oversimplify the groups involved. Yes, folks want to confront the EDL, but if they're asian and go along to protest it doesn't automatically qualify them for membership of an organised asian hooligan gang.


If they want to confront the EDL then why do they attack the police?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

1) that looks unusually like another cut'n'paste odyssey of uncertain parentage

2) what the bloody fuck's it got to do with my post you quote?





e19896 said:


> The rise of The English Defence League..
> 
> Should to be frank come as no surprise, it is part the program to demonise the working-class set them against each other, the rise of a militant working class is now more important than ever headlines such Police hit by bricks and bottles as they try to keep apart 1,000 rival demonstrators near Harrow mosque is not what I desire to read, the one id like to read is 1000 united  demonstrators go on the rampage in leafy suburbia, as the middle class hide behind there net curtains.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

e19896 said:


> We can not morn the failing of ourself s,


obviously not


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

e19896 said:


> The rise of The English Defence League..
> 
> Should to be frank come as no surprise, it is part the program to demonise the working-class set them against each other, the rise of a militant working class is now more important than ever headlines such Police hit by bricks and bottles as they try to keep apart 1,000 rival demonstrators near Harrow mosque is not what I desire to read, the one id like to read is 1000 united  demonstrators go on the rampage in leafy suburbia, as the middle class hide behind there net curtains.
> 
> ...


some years ago i drank in a pub in north london where someone i occasionally drank with always managed to move the conversation to the second world war - and often the performance of the german forces on the eastern front - within five minutes, no matter what the original topic of conversation. you seem to me to be the dull wannabe-anarcho limp-wristed liberal version of that man, only without his wit, charm, and knowledge of his chosen subject.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh great. Now he wants to start a class war against the so-called 'middle classes'. 

Come on then, if you think you're hard enough. I'm actually working class, but you'd probably class me as middle class and make me your enemy. 

First he says 'do not let the bosses divide us' and tells us it's part of their plan/programme to divide us, then he bays for the blood of the 'middle classes' and calls for them to be harmed. Does that mean he's working for the bosses and is implementing 'the plan to divide us'? Looks like it to me.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 12, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> 1) that looks unusually like another cut'n'paste odyssey of uncertain parentage


It's a mash. Parts of it come from Lancaster Unity. Other parts of it - no idea where from - e19896's arse? . 





> 2) what the bloody fuck's it got to do with my post you quote?


Nothing that I can see.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> It's a mash. Parts of it come from Lancaster Unity. Other parts of it - no idea where from - e19896's arse?


i take it the sensible bits are from lancaster unity, which is surprising as they're a bunch of searchlight lickspittles


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> thats not a riot
> 
> is a riot


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 12, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You are immensely prejudiced against migrants. You regularly promote sons-and-daughters residency and employment regulations. Those intrinsically discriminate against migrants.
> 
> I'd be utterly fucked if your ideas ever worked, which they never will, and so would most people on this board.



I cant believe that you could post something this pathetic FM. Its beyond idiotic to pretend durruti is prejudiced against migrants.
After all this time do you still not understand that people like durruti look at the international consequences of economic migration. 
You seem lost in your little englander liberal world view where the UK can take all the skilled workers it wants from poorer nations and sod the consequences.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

> Although a group did chase someone into the Civic shouting that he was Cid.
> Reply With Quote




would that be El Cid, i will get my coat...

btw all the media is now leading with all this, its gone massive, all the various factions will now grow bigger


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2009)

a genuine question, 

What is the estimate for the number of far right homophobic Islamic extremists, not Friday Muslims, not people who have some dodgy views, (as most people do) but like the far right will act on their prejudices?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 12, 2009)

Silver_Fox said:


> durutti you seem to constantly come across as hectoring. Like you are the one with the one true vision. And it is, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, so frustrating that those libwals on the far left won't listen to you.


 yes i suspect in my frustration i do at times too often on here .. i can assure you that unlike the left this is not how i relate to people generally


----------



## subversplat (Sep 12, 2009)

For what it's worth, I love the idea of a group of Causals United going around philosophising Aristotle


----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2009)

For those


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 12, 2009)

purplex said:


> Unlikely, the numbers attending these events are tiny and decreasing. They seem to have been successfully marginalized to the point where it is becoming ridiculously unsafe to mob up because they are outnumbered massively.
> 
> Tomorrow's the next flashpoint.



Friday was a work day in a London suburb. If it was (and I doubt it) a nationally syndicated or endorsed protest, only the very hardcore would turn up.

If they organise in city centres on football days (internationals or cup finals) or use their brains and actually reach out to Hindus, Sikhs and target the people they allege to oppose the most strongly (Choudhary), I think they could still get large numbers out.

Would also make them harder to oppose.  Although I don't think theres any danger of Hindus or Sikhs turning out with them anytime soon.  Harrow probably would have been perfect for that and it never happened.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 12, 2009)

CyberRose said:


> How many turned up?
> 
> The BBC article says the organisers called it off and told people not to go.





> It was called off after the first 15 supporters to turn up were chased off by counter-demonstrators who outnumbered them heavily.
> 
> Anti-Islamic protesters had to be sheltered by riot police who formed a cordon round them and rescued one from a beating after he was caught and set upon by a crowd of Asian youths. As police protected the men, further violence broke out when a number of masked protesters started hurling bottles, rocks and fireworks at officers.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...tors-clash-at-antimuslim-protest-1785797.html


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 12, 2009)

programme on EDL on radio 5 now


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes of course but if you have no power and you are insecure and threatenned how then can you build class interests? this is the "how to get to A to Z" that the left ignore ..
> 
> fascism does not grow in the organised w/c but the unorganised working class the left have always written off



You build class interests by having solidarity with your class.  Not by deciding who can and can't have solidarity based on where they live.


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Sep 13, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> programme on EDL on radio 5 now



It's scary how polarised the views on all sides have become.


----------



## purplex (Sep 13, 2009)

Posted on the lionheart blog - Anjem Choudhry shit-stirring


----------



## TremulousTetra (Sep 13, 2009)

MC5 said:


> For those


 imagine them having the temerity to fight back.


----------



## Harold Hill (Sep 13, 2009)

Prince Rhyus said:


> It's scary how polarised the views on all sides have become.



Yep.  In the age of mass communication you wonder how this could happen.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 13, 2009)

> fascism does not grow in the organised w/c but the unorganised working class the left have always written off



catually durruti fascism grows when ideas which have been seen as reactionary, ie ultra nationalism, racism, authoritarianism are presented to the working class as some kind of new radical position within class struggle

you might want to read up on mussolini, youd find you have quite a bit in commen


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 13, 2009)

Prince Rhyus said:


> It's scary how polarised the views on all sides have become.



All it seems to prove is that we can all find bigotry when it suits our prejudices.
I didnt think much of the edl person on radio 5 he seemed quite confused. But to be honest MY PREJUDICE tells me that the nice polite english racism of the middle classes is far more powerful,poisonous and worthy of debate than the edl.
The edl are just convenient scapegoats for those people and dont they just love it as you can see by this thread.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 13, 2009)

Just scapegoats. Yeah. Anyone who opposes them is a middle class type with a polite racist style. Yeah.

Cock off.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 13, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Just scapegoats. Yeah. Anyone who opposes them is a middle class type with a polite racist style. Yeah.
> 
> Cock off.



At the moment it looks to me as they are mostly just that scapegoats.
If you look at racism in the UK do you really think the main problem is people like the edl?
The ideas propogated by the media on issues like migration and international development are far more widespread and far more dangerous.


----------



## purplex (Sep 13, 2009)

smokedout said:


> catually durruti fascism grows when ideas which have been seen as reactionary, ie ultra nationalism, racism, authoritarianism are presented to the working class as some kind of new radical position within class struggle
> 
> you might want to read up on mussolini, youd find you have quite a bit in commen



You are pretty far wide of the mark as it goes, but feel free to carry on, its quite funny seeing people  come on the tail end of a thread and get the wrong end of the stick.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 14, 2009)

EDL supporters show their true colours.


----------



## Davo1 (Sep 14, 2009)

MC5 said:


> EDL supporters show their true colours.



Thanks

That was funny. 

At 1.24 Martin Smith gets into a bit of a 'tussle'.

Arf!....

I honestly went bright red.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 14, 2009)

Sent to Coventry. You couldn't make it up


----------



## smokedout (Sep 14, 2009)

MC5 said:


> EDL supporters show their true colours.



a trot shows his true colours by posting this shite


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 14, 2009)

MC5 said:


> EDL supporters show their true colours.


 what the bit where the woman ( looks like Lady Leisha) says she is against having the freedoms women have won taken away? or the bits where you see Jamaican and Trinidad flags? or just the bit where the muppet shouts i hate pakis more than you?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Sep 15, 2009)

Just because the UAF are a useless bunch of fuckwits that you are obsessed with why do you go out of your way to make out that it is confusing what the EDF are. Everyone I know, involved with various different teams, knows what the EDF are, so why don't you?

They are racist idiots trying to pretend they're not, and not trying very hard at that. They are going into areas trying to kick off race riots.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 15, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Just because the UAF are a useless bunch of fuckwits that you are obsessed with why do you go out of your way to make out that it is confusing what the EDF are. Everyone I know, involved with various different teams, knows what the EDF are, so why don't you?
> 
> They are racist idiots trying to pretend they're not, and not trying very hard at that. They are going into areas trying to kick off race riots.



Yep and the Old Bills keep mounting up....Next time the bailifs come knocking im going to tell them fuck off edf you racist bastards.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 15, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> what the bit where the woman ( looks like Lady Leisha) says she is against having the freedoms women have won taken away? or the bits where you see Jamaican and Trinidad flags? or just the bit where the muppet shouts i hate pakis more than you?



That and other comments about being against the New World Order (ZOG) and 'you are a white disgrace' shouted.

Flags? Afraid of black Millwall supporters probably and solidarity with Hindu nationalists perhaps?.

The straight arm salute is clearly seen twice being given by the dress to type bonehead getting on the bus and the idiot down the alley.

As for Leishe? Fat is a feminist issue dear and the knuckle duster ear ring would not be allowed under Sharia Law, if in the unlikely event it would be imposed here.

The other woman featured appeared to be punching a female photographer. Sisterhood eh?

There appears to be some connection between the EDL and the Christian Action Network, who Bartholomew notes their 'extreme homophobia'.

More here too.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 15, 2009)

smokedout said:


> a trot shows his true colours by posting this shite



An idiot shows his true colours by posting this shite.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 15, 2009)

4:37 into that Current vid - is that the EDL spokesperson Ray? Is it me, but I get the feeling from his expression that he has something to hide?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 16, 2009)

At 03.45 there is a bloke with a dog


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 16, 2009)

Just got this email.....



> URGENT ACTION ALERT - ANTI MUSLIM GROUP PLANNING TO DEMONSTRATE IN GLASGOW ON NOVEMBER 14, 2009
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's a link to the Facebook site I can't access from work so io've sent it to my home e-mail adddress.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 16, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> At 03.45 there is a bloke with a dog



Got home and found mines thrown up on the carpet.


----------



## tbaldwin (Sep 16, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Got home and found mines thrown up on the carpet.



Special branch?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Got home and found mines thrown up on the carpet.



Probably been reading your posts from the last few days.


----------



## Spion (Sep 16, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Just got this email.....
> 
> 
> 
> There's a link to the Facebook site I can't access from work so io've sent it to my home e-mail adddress.


The *English *Defence League go to Scotland!!!!????


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 16, 2009)

Spion said:


> The *English *Defence League go to Scotland!!!!????



And Wales too! They're coming on October 24th (see Wales forum) to protest against a Mosque being built- and rebranding themselves as the Welsh Defence League.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 16, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Just got this email.....
> 
> 
> 
> There's a link to the Facebook site I can't access from work so io've sent it to my home e-mail adddress.



should go down well with Rangers supporters


----------



## audiotech (Sep 16, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Probably been reading your posts from the last few days.



No, it can't work out my password.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 16, 2009)

tbaldwin said:


> Special branch?



No, dog food.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 16, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> should go down well with Rangers supporters



Be interesting to so what they do if they do turn up. Borderline racist chants coupled with Union flags or St George Crosses would likely attract a rather large response.


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 16, 2009)

more smoke and mirrors? 

"A message to John Denham MP 

Mr John Denham MP,
Sir,
Your description of the English Defence League as a “far right” and “Fascist” group is dishonest and Orwellian to say the least. Fascism is a political theory opposed to liberal democracy and is a close ideological relation of radical Islam.

The EDL exists precisely because extremist Muslim groups are being allowed to tour the UK unchallenged, corrupting the minds of young and impressionable people, undermining community cohesion and causing gratuitous offence to non Muslims.

The EDL is a direct product of the failure of government, and indeed of all political parties to seriously address the issue of Islamic extremism in the UK. Your comparison of the situation in Harrow yesterday (to which the EDL were not party) with the Black Shirts of Oswald Mosley is farcical, intended only to legitimise the violent response of Muslim and government sponsored counter demonstrators, and to demonise a group of people who feel that the actions of Anjem Choudary and his ilk must be opposed. Failure to do so will result in further alienation as these extremists are allowed to preach their hatred of the UK, our people and our way of life.

Labour face a political battle with the BNP that is totally removed from the aims and intentions of the EDL, however Labour should not let their fear of legitimate political debate degenerate into the sponsorship and direction of a violent street army like the UAF, who are being used as an alternative means of trying to win the argument. These methods are not far removed from those of Robert Mugabe. Their fight with the BNP is nothing to do with the EDL. We are a non racist and non discriminatory protest group who believe in an integrated and peaceful Britain with one law and one society, respected by all of its members.

The EDL will continue to peacefully protest and highlight the issue of unrestrained Islamic extremism in the UK, unless and until the government take concerted action against those who preach hatred and wish to harm the people of this country.

Regards, The EDL."


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 16, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Just got this email.....
> 
> 
> 
> There's a link to the Facebook site I can't access from work so io've sent it to my home e-mail adddress.


 theres no details on it yet


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Sep 16, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Just got this email.....
> 
> 
> 
> "We have just received information that an anti-Muslim group calling itself the ‘English Defence League‘ are planning to demonstrate in Glasgow on the afternoon of Saturday 14th November 2009"




keep any counter protest group away, kettle the small numbers and guide them towards govanhill...

the rest will take care of itself 
if fucking only,


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Sep 16, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Just got this email.....
> 
> 
> 
> "We have just received information that an anti-Muslim group calling itself the ‘English Defence League‘ are planning to demonstrate in Glasgow on the afternoon of Saturday 14th November 2009"




keep any counter protest group away, kettle the small numbers and guide them towards govanhill...

the rest will take care of itself 
if fucking only,


----------



## audiotech (Sep 16, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> We are a non racist and non discriminatory protest group who believe in an integrated and peaceful Britain with one law and one society, respected by all of its members.



Why hide their faces then and give a group like the Christian Action Network an interview, whose founder served as editor of "Moral Majority Report" a publication produced by that well known US bigot Jerry Falwell?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 16, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> We are a non racist and non discriminatory protest group who believe in an integrated and peaceful Britain with one law and one society, respected by all of its members.
> 
> Regards, The EDL."



Do you believe that?


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 16, 2009)

smokedout said:


> catually durruti fascism grows when ideas which have been seen as reactionary, ie ultra nationalism, racism, authoritarianism are presented to the working class as some kind of new radical position within class struggle
> 
> you might want to read up on mussolini, youd find you have quite a bit in commen



 smoked out .. let me repeat .. active with anl 1978-1982, in afa mid to late 8ts, anti racist and anti fascist all my life i know as much as there is to know about Mussolini and Strasser and Harrington and Griffin

 .. and it is THIS knowledge that leads me to argue as i do, that traditional 'anti-fascism' is NOT working 

i think the inability from people like you and many others on here to see what i am arguing is looking for a way to destroy fascism ( in all its guises) and is not that fascism itself, is deeply worrying ( and would be deeply offensive if i hadn't heard it from other idiots on here before) . it shows you do not understand what fascism is in 2009 and that you do not have the tools to defeat it


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 16, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Why hide their faces then and give a group like the Christian Action Network an interview, whose founder served as editor of "Moral Majority Report" a publication produced by that well known US bigot Jerry Falwell?


 mainly because they are hooligans who love the buzz and also one of their 'leaders' jeff marsh is facing some sort of court case for this stuff ..


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 16, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by durruti02 View Post

"We are a non racist and non discriminatory protest group who believe in an integrated and peaceful Britain with one law and one society, respected by all of its members. Regards, The EDL."




Fedayn said:


> Do you believe that?



  

1) i do not know who the EDL leaders are , who the 'we' is  .. i have posted above about who they possibly are ( sadly no one else has tried to help identify who is who on this thread  

so 2) my feeling remains the same .. that they are some sort of provocation, probably fascist, ( prob BNP, though the EDP has strong links in there) OR some sort of secret state provocation.  

.. but with people who probably do believe the above who are very very naive and believe in a classless mythical bullshit Britain that actually can only come from violence and exclusion of muslims 

 on the EDL forum there is a wide range of views from clearly neo-nazis to people who really do appear to be simply angry over Islamists but stress their otherwise 'british liberal values' 

 the problem for us remains though that there are plugging into something that is deeply unpopular 

1) a minority with a large section who do not appear to wish to integrate 
2) a minority with a tiny yet visible minority who set off bombs and appear to attack the basis of what people see as their culture ( no other migrant group has every done this) 
3) a minority with ethics that are deeply at odds with what people see as liberal british cultural values re women gays etc 

so this provocation is pretty smart .. i also find it deeply disturbing how much publicity they are getting for such a tiny group and why .. 

it fits into a few agendas 
1) the fascist provocation to create 'race riots' ( not race but whatever)  
2) a state provocation for the same
 --- to justify a clampdown
 --- to take attention away from the real issues
 --- or a honey trap to find out how will take to the streets


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 16, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Be interesting to so what they do if they do turn up. Borderline racist chants coupled with Union flags or St George Crosses would likely attract a rather large response.


 "no surrender .. to alqaeda" is one of their fav slogans" lol  i think the police will ban this one!!


----------



## smokedout (Sep 16, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> .. and it is THIS knowledge that leads me to argue as i do, that traditional 'anti-fascism' is NOT working
> 
> i think the inability from people like you and many others on here to see what i am arguing is looking for a way to destroy fascism ( in all its guises) and is not that fascism itself, is deeply worrying ( and would be deeply offensive if i hadn't heard it from other idiots on here before) . it shows you do not understand what fascism is in 2009 and that you do not have the tools to defeat it



if the only tool to defeat fascism is more fascism then we're in a pretty poor state aint we


----------



## smokedout (Sep 16, 2009)

and btw, i know you're not a fascist, and i dont disagree with a lot of what you say on other issues as you know

but sometimes the things you say, combined with the way you say them could lead people to suspect youre skirting the edges of fascism

along with a complete failure to provide any solutions yourself then perhaps you should rethink your approach


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 16, 2009)

smokedout said:


> and btw, i know you're not a fascist, and i dont disagree with a lot of what you say on other issues as you know
> 
> but sometimes the things you say, combined with the way you say them could lead people to suspect youre skirting the edges of fascism
> 
> along with a complete failure to provide any solutions yourself then perhaps you should rethink your approach



lol mate  

1) well thank you 
2) that is my point .. it is not me that is confused but the dogmatic orthodoxy of the left 
3) er excuse me? i am probably more active in grassroots politics than most on here and have consistently argued the solution is grassroots trade unionism ( i am a shop steward and support the NSSN) and radical progressive localism


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 17, 2009)

On the EDL FACEBOOK GROUP



> UPCOMING EVENTS
> 
> 10th OCT MANCHESTER (EDL EVENT)
> 31ST OCT LEEDS (EDL EVENT)
> 7TH NOV GLASGOW (SDL EVENT)


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 17, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> On the EDL FACEBOOK GROUP



How come the Newport march isn't listed?


----------



## Spion (Sep 17, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> How come the Newport march isn't listed?


Saxon racism?


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Sep 17, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> On the EDL FACEBOOK GROUP



7th november makes more sense, rangers have a home game that day.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 17, 2009)

31st Oct - Leeds playing at home against Yeovil
10th Oct - Neither United nor City are playing.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> 31st Oct - Leeds playing at home against Yeovil
> 10th Oct - Neither United nor City are playing.



Its Ukraine v England isn't it?


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 17, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> 7th november makes more sense, rangers have a home game that day.



Exactly....


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2009)

Manchester City Council's request to have the EDL demo banned  turned down

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8259256.stm

Looks like a three way fight GMP versus EDL versus UAF wound up Muslim youth.Could be worse could be a repeat of Rangers UEFA Cup night


----------



## audiotech (Sep 17, 2009)

> We are a static demonstration group, we don't want to hold marches. I believe [under] their powers [the Home Office] can only ban a march.



'Tommy' [EDL] pretends he doesn't know this.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 23, 2009)

BBC File on Four programme on this.

The 'prevent strategy' is acknowledged as being divisive. No surprise there then.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 24, 2009)

MC5 said:


> BBC File on Four programme on this.
> 
> The 'prevent strategy' is acknowledged as being divisive. No surprise there then.




Divisive in two ways , firstly it was seen in some places as targeting Muslim communities ( which of course if the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremism it logically has to ) and secondly it has meant that tens of millions  has been spent entirely on the muslim community.

The other competing pressure is that even new labour realise the threat the BNP are to their working class vote and so have now broadened the Prevent agenda to white far right extremism and also identified monies via DCLG for engaging with the top 100 disaffected white working class wards ie where the BNP vote is high in areas of low income.


----------



## revlon (Sep 24, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Divisive in two ways , firstly it was seen in some places as targeting Muslim communities ( which of course if the biggest terrorist threat is from Islamic extremism it logically has to ) and secondly it has meant that tens of millions  has been spent entirely on the muslim community.
> 
> The other competing pressure is that even new labour realise the threat the BNP are to their working class vote and so have now broadened the Prevent agenda to white far right extremism and also identified monies via DCLG for engaging with the top 100 disaffected white working class wards ie where the BNP vote is high in areas of low income.



there was also blair's 'new deal for communities' where billions are being plowed into the 39 designated most deprived areas in britain filtered through a motley collection of self-appointed quangos and local business interests.

Introduced back at the beginning to new labour as a preventive measure to deal with inner city unrest (a kind of new labour version of lord scarman's recommendations).


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 25, 2009)

EDL have begun a branch in Oldham.


> *Violent background of branch leader
> *
> THE English Defence League’s Oldham branch leader Michael, who does not want to give his surname, admits he has criminal convictions for assault and public disorder and served a two-year order banning him from football grounds — though he says that is in the past.
> 
> ...



However, on EDL forum, there are people saying that all Muslims are extremist:


> Cythraul Sep 13 2009, 11:29 AM
> 
> A lot of our opponents keep making the same argument that only a tiny, tiny minority of Muslims are prepared to bomb or attack innocent people, therefore we're wrong for protesting.
> 
> Truth is: NON-VIOLENT forms of Islamic Extremism are JUST AS DANGEROUS and we really need to highlight these points just as much as we do violent extremism. Sharia courts, women's rights, halal slaughter methods, community segregation, supermosques, special treatment (by police, laws, leisure facilities) and so on... these things are, in my eyes, extremist. They are signs that some Muslims don't want to compromise and adapt to the British way of life. These things, along with high birthrates, are also FAR MORE of a danger to this country, ultimately, than violent terrorism.


http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/n...s/30191/racehate-fears-over-new-protest-group


----------



## BlackArab (Sep 26, 2009)

_The 25-year-old has led football firm the Fine Young Casuals, involved in the Oldham riots, for 10 years. _

Leading the FYC at 15


----------



## Davo1 (Sep 26, 2009)

Anyone heard this yet? (tried to do a broken link hope that's right):

http://simondarby.blogspot.comdeleteme/2009/09/putting-down-marker.html

One eye and Darby on the EDL and the Daily Star.

As far as I can tell Griffin blames the EDL, not on the State or the BNP, but the Zionists or something.

Fuck me, I'm confused! Maybe that's the point....


----------



## revlon (Sep 27, 2009)

Davo1 said:


> Anyone heard this yet? (tried to do a broken link hope that's right):
> 
> http://simondarby.blogspot.comdeleteme/2009/09/putting-down-marker.html
> 
> ...



either griffin's playing a very sophisticated double, double, bluff with his "front group" (c)The Anti-facsists, or as long been stated here the english defence league are nothing to do with the bnp.

The fact people (on all sides of the political spectrum) are still looking for a reason behind the edl, apart from a group of angry, pissed off, alienated and utterly demoralised white working class reinforcing an 'English' identity, that they obvioulsy feel they are losing, and using muslim extremism as a means of doing that, says more about our desperation than that of the edl's frankly confused political trajectory.

It's not particularly pretty, but neither is it smash the nazi bnp off our streets.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 27, 2009)

Just been a report on Radio 4 about the march in Birmingham. One of the EDL spokespeople was complaining about how a load of footie fans were kept inside a pub against their will. Harsh police tactics there.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm listening to File on 4 again, with Allan Urry assessing the threat of attacks by white, racist, right-wing extremists
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00mr4w5


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 27, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I'm listening to File on 4 again, with Allan Urry assessing the threat of attacks by white, racist, right-wing extremists
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00mr4w5



That's the one. Allah, Allah, who the fuck is Allah. What a bunch of simpletons. It also has some info on the right wing extremist caught drunk at the railway with bomb-making stuff in his bag. Turns out he's a paedo with loads of pictures of Hitler on his bedroom wall. What a bunch of sad sacks these people are.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 29, 2009)

And it 'heats up' in Glasgow......



> Scotland’s largest police force has promised to “oppose” a demonstration by anti-Muslim extremists if the event is intent on stirring up racial hatred.
> 
> A spokesman for Strathclyde Police made the comment about a procession by the newly-formed Scottish Defence League (SDL) that is pencilled in for November.


----------



## likesfish (Sep 29, 2009)

we had deal deal for a community EB4U or rather eb4few green buisness park with a wind turbine at the bottom of a hill wankers


----------



## invisibleplanet (Sep 29, 2009)

I think you're in the wrong thread, likesfish, lol


----------



## tar1984 (Sep 29, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> And it 'heats up' in Glasgow......



What a crowd of tossers.


----------



## purplex (Sep 29, 2009)

tar1984 said:


> What a crowd of tossers.



I see no cabers either


----------



## durruti02 (Sep 30, 2009)

interesting four part article on EDL UAF etc from US NeoCon ( though think part 4 is not yet up) 

1 - http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4392/pub_detail.asp
2 - http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4393/pub_detail.asp
3 - http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4398/pub_detail.asp


----------



## tar1984 (Oct 1, 2009)

purplex said:


> I see no cabers either



zing!


----------



## DeepStoat (Oct 1, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> interesting four part article on EDL UAF etc from US NeoCon ( though think part 4 is not yet up)
> 
> 1 - http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4392/pub_detail.asp
> 2 - http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4393/pub_detail.asp
> 3 - http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.4398/pub_detail.asp





> Counter-protesters, left-wing media pundits and the UAF demonize all critics of Islam/Islamism as "BNP" members, despite protestations to the contrary.



Well that's steaming cock.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 2, 2009)

Joining instructions:




> Hello all.
> 
> We have been in talks with the Manchester Police Force today, and our protest to oppose Radical Islam, and Sharia Law has been approved.
> 
> ...


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 2, 2009)

Surely thou doth protest too much?


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 4, 2009)

"English Defence League response to the lies of the UAF and some elements of the press." 28/09/09





.. dominated by one (west country) individual ( who? tommy robinson who is who?), burning swastika, appear to be 3 black lads ( who don't really want to talk) , giving bit of background, going on and on about not being associated with far right, denying Renton is involved?? and saying this stunt is to stop far right support for EDL, going on about 'mad mullahs' and claiming muslim members 

but yes teaboy it is hard not to agree with you


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2009)

Those balaclavas give the whole thing an air of respectability


----------



## revlon (Oct 4, 2009)

the point is _why are_ they trying so hard?

There's an interesting dynamic going on with the emergence of the edl far more subtle than the crater we seemed to have bludgeoned into shape with the taunts of fascism that we expect everyone to obediently fall in to. 

An angry, disenfranchised and politically alienated white working class that isn't immediately deferential to the bnp or seduced by its promises of sorting out this country.

Can't help thinking we've missed something.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 4, 2009)

revlon said:


> the point is _why are_ they trying so hard?
> 
> There's an interesting dynamic going on with the emergence of the edl far more subtle than the crater we seemed to have bludgeoned into shape with the taunts of fascism that we expect everyone to obediently fall in to.
> 
> ...



yes i think you are right .. there is a refusal to believe by most on the left that there is a space in the spectrum for an english nationalism that is reactionary on some levels but progressive on others and that is independent of the traditional far right ( hmm the trot left do this non orthodox left too lol) .. 

a sginficant % of edl speakers trevor kelway and, if this is, tommy robinson and at least a third of those on the forums are coming out with this same new line which i see as disenfranchised w/c, based to an extent in a particular layer of ex squaddies and hoolies,  position which in the absence of a left that they could relate to has taken this line of least resistance against nutters like choudary part legitimate and part scapegoating part simply ignorent of the big picture and part deliberately ignoring the big picture 

the twist is that 1) many believe choudary to be a state asset
 2) since when did people like this get so much press etc etc or is it just as good casuals there present themselves well ;D


----------



## audiotech (Oct 4, 2009)

Is the EDL being funded for this by the 45-year-old businessman from Highgate, North London who has links to far-right groups?



> We have a problem with numbers. We have an army of bloggers [on the far right] but that’s not going to get things done. Football fans are a potential source of support. They are a hoi polloi that gets off their backsides and travels to a city and they are available before and after matches.



source


----------



## audiotech (Oct 4, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Those balaclavas give the whole thing an air of respectability



 amongst them?


----------



## revlon (Oct 4, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Is the EDL being funded for this by the 45-year-old businessman from Highgate, North London who has links to far-right groups?
> 
> 
> 
> source





> He is, however, quick to distance himself from fascist organisations and one of his only demands of the EDL in return for his funding is that it distances itself from groups such as the British National Party.



...?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 4, 2009)

revlon said:


> ...?



Yes, a contradiction well spotted.

But, as the article notes, Lake 'appears acutely aware of its [far-right links] negative impact on the group'.

And:



> Whatever Lake’s wishes it is unlikely that he will be able to direct EDL philosophy and actions too tightly.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 4, 2009)

wheras these two for Manchester from Paul Ray is just anti Islamic nut job stuff full stop .. does it have EDL seal of approval??  for what it is wirth neither are on the EDL website 




he claims to have left but now claims has his OWN EDL division lol the "St George Division" ..  

the two vids on EDL are 1) a mash up of churchill speeches  and the 2) the swastika burning one above


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 7, 2009)

anyone going to manchester?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2009)

Meetings are already taking place in Glasgow on what tactics are need to oppose the SDL 'demo' up here in November.


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Oct 7, 2009)

On the right, all the White nationalist groups are distancing themselves/refusing to stand with the EDL and are suspicious that they are state funded. 
On the left, we have groups  (well at least one) shouting its the BNP and Nazis... 


Shouldnt we be lining the streets and laughing as they waddle past? after all their political message is that muddled, it just doesnt make sense and surely we could be exposing them for the fools they are.

Or is the approach of screaming infactual names at them, stirring up a ruck and maximising their media presence the way to continue?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 7, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> On the right, all the White nationalist groups are distancing themselves/refusing to stand with the EDL and are suspicious that they are state funded.
> On the left, we have groups  (well at least one) shouting its the BNP and Nazis...
> 
> 
> ...



The mighty BFF are in fact turning up to support the EDL.look out for anyone trying to get their picture taken.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2009)

In a month's time nobody will remember who they were tbh.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> In a month's time nobody will remember who they were tbh.



Given that the demo in Scotland is in a months time that's a rather strange comment.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2009)

I exaggerate the timescale slightly, but tbh I've almost forgotten about them myself. Next year it'll be "do you remember that lot who did a couple of marches and tried to start fights with muslims?" "oh yeah, what happened to them?" "nothing really, they had a couple of fights".


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Oct 7, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> The mighty BFF are in fact turning up to support the EDL.look out for anyone trying to get their picture taken.



the White nationalist groups have all said on SF that they do not support the edl as a group and its upto individual members. seems to be a split in the thinking about it due to the black and white unite, israel flags and multi ethnic membership of the edl.

Copy and pastes to avoid any links to the SF forum.


"the bff does not support edl,its up to each member if there go or dont, its down to a persons choice,there are some members in the BFF that dont support EDL and we respect there choice,pino you should not say that every BFF would possibley be there,as there are some in the BFF that dont and wont support EDL,"

"its come to our attention that its gone up on certain web sites that the Racial Volunteer Force support the edl and we will be turning up to the rally in manchester. this is complete rubbish the RVF does not and would never support a group that contains blacks in their group and carry banner around that say BLACK AND WHITE UNITE or WE HATE NAZIS AS MUCH AS WE HATE MUSLIMS, even letting a ****** be interviewed on their behalf. dont beleive us then have a look at their own website"

add that to the BNP distancing themselves.... 

they seem to be a very muddled wee group of individuals. 

You may get the odd bone head out to have a look around etc, but again.. their message is that messed up that no one really wants to stand with them


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I exaggerate the timescale slightly, but tbh I've almost forgotten about them myself. Next year it'll be "do you remember that lot who did a couple of marches and tried to start fights with muslims?" "oh yeah, what happened to them?" "nothing really, they had a couple of fights".



At some point that may well be true, but their 'constituency' up here is slightly diffferent and in a way more coherent that down south. What happens up here might be a bit different.


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Oct 7, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Given that the demo in Scotland is in a months time that's a rather strange comment.



the scottish demo will also test to see if they recieve loyalist support.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 7, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> the scottish demo will also test to see if they recieve loyalist support.


  i woudl think it would be based 100% in loyalism .. which could cause problems in england as there are a few england based hoops shirts showing up on videos and facebook


----------



## revlon (Oct 7, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> the White nationalist groups have all said on SF that they do not support the edl as a group and its upto individual members. seems to be a split in the thinking about it due to the black and white unite, israel flags and multi ethnic membership of the edl.
> 
> Copy and pastes to avoid any links to the SF forum.
> 
> ...



bffyouth are boasting they were out with the edl in birmingham, guaranteed these were the sieg heilers. It's in their blood


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i woudl think it would be based 100% in loyalism .. which could cause problems in england as there are a few england based hoops shirts showing up on videos and facebook



Those who were wearing the Hoops might do themselves a favour and stay away from Parkhead. Their pictures have been noted by left leaning tims up here.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i woudl think it would be based 100% in loyalism .. which could cause problems in england as there are a few england based hoops shirts showing up on videos and facebook



Not 100% but certainly very close.


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Oct 7, 2009)

revlon said:


> bffyouth are boasting they were out with the edl in birmingham, guaranteed these were the sieg heilers. It's in their blood



wasnt it one of them who was pushed around by the EDL and put off the bus for the Seeeeg heeeeil, adding to the tension between the groups?

i know some of em will be out, and some will be standing by the side lines watching..  just worth noting at the moment none of the  groups are giving them support.


----------



## revlon (Oct 7, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> wasnt it one of them who was pushed around by the EDL and put off the bus for the Seeeeg heeeeil, adding to the tension between the groups?
> 
> i know some of em will be out, and some will be standing by the side lines watching..  just worth noting at the moment none of the  groups are giving them support.



i reckon you're right. I also reckon all these tiny far right factions will be jockeying for position to mop up those disillusioned and disappointed that the edl aren't hard enough on muslim extremism and have turned into some multi-cultural liberal wank.


----------



## Davo1 (Oct 7, 2009)

New plans for Manchester if anyone was going to 'laugh' at them:



> Due to all the concerns expressed on here and the EDL forum about the meeting place and not wanting to be stuck in one pub, we have today been in talks again with Manchester police and there are a few new arrangements that should be better for everyone, These have been agreed by EDL organisers and Manchester police for everyones safety.
> 
> We shall no longer be meeting at weatherspoons by picadilly gardens, everyone arriving in Manchester whether by train or car, coach etc should head for piccadilly train station, There the police will direct everyone to new meeting point, cars and coaches are to go to the car park at the station again police will direct you as we have seperate secure parking arranged for all edl with police staying with all vehicles whilst we are at protest to protect them from attacks etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> At some point that may well be true, but their 'constituency' up here is slightly diffferent and in a way more coherent that down south. What happens up here might be a bit different.



If you're saying they're tapping into loyalism, fair enough, but that's not really the EDL there is it? It's just continuing bullshit.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 7, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> the White nationalist groups have all said on SF that they do not support the edl as a group and its upto individual members. seems to be a split in the thinking about it due to the black and white unite, israel flags and multi ethnic membership of the edl.
> 
> Copy and pastes to avoid any links to the SF forum.
> 
> ...




I suspect that despite the posturing on that website about pure white nats not joining ZOG etc is that the main reason is that they are shit scared rather than that the message is messed up.The numbers of neo nazis who actually turn up to anything is minute despite all the wise and 14 word guff and they wouldn't be able to have even strength in numbers with the EDL as the latter will disown them . Its only a hop skip and jump for Wigan Mike and that gormless twat from Liverpool so I suspect they will all be out in their latest casual gear rather than their normal camoflauge and bombers.

It's a shite branch of Weatherspoons as well


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 7, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If you're saying they're tapping into loyalism, fair enough, but that's not really the EDL there is it? It's just continuing bullshit.



But that loyalist element is what they will have to tap into up here to ensure a sizable turnout. It's the 'british and proud' stuff that they'll have to tap into. They can't really use the 'English and proud' bit up here can they....


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 8, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If you're saying they're tapping into loyalism, fair enough, but that's not really the EDL there is it? It's just continuing bullshit.



the edl foot soliders seems to be heavily based in football and ex army ..  it essentially started after the Luton Al Mujahroon demo at the Army March .. which explains how they have a few black lads involved, explains why they go on about No Surrender, explains why they are 'anti-nazi' and so while they probably do have some irish descent support in england, the vast maj will have some sort of  'loyalist' thing going on and will see 'england' as good, and anyone, whether irish republican, muslim jihadist, communist UAF (lol)  or nazi sympathiser, who is 'disloyal' or who supports another regime, as bad


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 8, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> they seem to be a very muddled wee group of individuals.



yes there may be differrent opinions but muddled i am not so sure .. i think they tap into a significantly large % of the 'british people' who ( see my above post) for a number of reasons( some good .. UK is very liberal etc some bad .. used to have an empire etc) think england is a great country ( they call themselves patriotic) and resent ANYONE whether they be 'reds', BNP, Nazis, jihadis who knocks, let alone bombs, this country .. 

imho 'the left' has a problem in dealing with this large group ( many times bigger than real Nazis or BNP activists ) as they cannot fight them in the streets, they can not 'no platform' them, they can NOT put on the Nazi tag on them so their 'anti-fascist' tactics book does not work 

 and tbh i think this group is a majority in the w/c ( and dominates the m/c i would guess ) .. IF we are ever to change society we need to understand WHY they 'love their country' ( we love it when the Irish and Welsh get all nationalistic ) and how we can STOP that being xenophobic and nationalistic 

simply attacking people who come out with 'patriotic' views, who are against whio they see as knockers, as fascists and racists is more likely to push these people to the right instead of engaging and chnaging minds


----------



## belboid (Oct 8, 2009)

'Patriotism' is actually a minority opinion amongst the w-c, according to most (far from definitive) surveys.  Oddly enough, the group who saw themselves as most patriotic in the last survey I saw (from earlier this year), were _muslims_.

The large majority of people, ime, who express sympathy for the kind of 'progressive patriotism' you refer to, do so without falling into any 'englands _better_' nonsense, and just point out that its not all shite.  No problem relating to that, vand neither has any 'leftie' I know.  

lumping those people n with those who miss the empire and all of that is very wrong, imo.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 8, 2009)

belboid said:


> 'Patriotism' is actually a minority opinion amongst the w-c, according to most (far from definitive) surveys.  Oddly enough, the group who saw themselves as most patriotic in the last survey I saw (from earlier this year), were _muslims_.
> 
> The large majority of people, ime, who express sympathy for the kind of 'progressive patriotism' you refer to, do so without falling into any 'englands _better_' nonsense, and just point out that its not all shite.  No problem relating to that, vand neither has any 'leftie' I know.
> 
> lumping those people n with those who miss the empire and all of that is very wrong, imo.


not so sure about this, there are a lot of george crosses on display if you travel around hertfordshire or essex and people I know there are small c conservative w/c and m/c, where here in N London I see more people from both backgrounds involved in the left through unions,voluntary sector, swp causes


----------



## purplex (Oct 8, 2009)

Someone bring a sound system to disrupt their two minutes silence please. 
Who the fuck are they to demand anything of anyone. 
Fuck them and fuck their silence. Pricks.


----------



## Bajie (Oct 8, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes there may be differrent opinions but muddled i am not so sure .. i think they tap into a significantly large % of the 'british people' who ( see my above post) for a number of reasons( some good .. UK is very liberal etc some bad .. used to have an empire etc) think england is a great country ( they call themselves patriotic) and resent ANYONE whether they be 'reds', BNP, Nazis, jihadis who knocks, let alone bombs, this country ..
> 
> imho 'the left' has a problem in dealing with this large group ( many times bigger than real Nazis or BNP activists ) as they cannot fight them in the streets, they can not 'no platform' them, they can NOT put on the Nazi tag on them so their 'anti-fascist' tactics book does not work
> 
> ...



There also seems to be a strong background element of evangelical christians, if anything rather than a BNP front I suspect they are more than of Christian Evangelical front.. with the rank and file being footie/ex-squaddies types as you have said.


----------



## Andy the Don (Oct 8, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> the edl foot soliders seems to be heavily based in football and ex army ..


 
They are all hoolies on a long/life ban who miss having a beer, sing-song and a ruck with like minded idiots..

Actually just like this muppet, who to my shame is a Don, last seen going to Birmingham for the EDL demo when we were off to see the Dons at Tamworth, and is the most pathetic hoolie going. So pathetic that if Viz ever did a "Pathetic Hoolie" comic strip it would be him..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/surrey/8284833.stm - Pathetic hoolie and member of the "master race"..


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes there may be differrent opinions but muddled i am not so sure .. i think they tap into a significantly large % of the 'british people' who ( see my above post) for a number of reasons( some good .. UK is very liberal etc some bad .. used to have an empire etc) think england is a great country ( they call themselves patriotic) and resent ANYONE whether they be 'reds', BNP, Nazis, jihadis who knocks, let alone bombs, this country ..
> 
> imho 'the left' has a problem in dealing with this large group ( many times bigger than real Nazis or BNP activists ) as they cannot fight them in the streets, they can not 'no platform' them, they can NOT put on the Nazi tag on them so their 'anti-fascist' tactics book does not work
> 
> ...



Who do you think you are George Orwell?

http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/ctc/docs/orwlpatr.htm
http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/lion-and-unicorn1.htm

Orwell fought in the Spanish Civil War on the side of Catalan anarchists.



> But Orwell's socialism was always cranky. He took much pleasure in ridiculing the excesses of socialist ideologues, that ~dreary tribe of high-minded women and sandalwearers and bearded fruit-juice drinkers who came flocking toward the smell of "progress" like blue-bottles to a dead cat'.



Excellent stuff.


----------



## BlackArab (Oct 8, 2009)

Andy the Don said:


> They are all hoolies on a long/life ban who miss having a beer, sing-song and a ruck with like minded idiots..
> 
> Actually just like this muppet, who to my shame is a Don, last seen going to Birmingham for the EDL demo when we were off to see the Dons at Tamworth, and is the most pathetic hoolie going. So pathetic that if Viz ever did a "Pathetic Hoolie" comic strip it would be him..
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/surrey/8284833.stm - Pathetic hoolie and member of the "master race"..




_The court heard he goaded opposition fans repeatedly between 2000 and 2008. _

Not exactly Bill Gardner then...


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> > dreary tribe of high-minded women and sandalwearers and bearded fruit-juice drinkers who came flocking toward the smell of "progress" like blue-bottles to a dead cat'
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent stuff.



Indeed it is and it describes the SWP perfectly.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2009)

Those characters, with added fashion accessory's are not exclusive to the SWP by any means, but with their recent recruitment drive amongst the yoof the SWP do look a bit more vibrant these days.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Those characters, with added fashion accessory's are not exclusive to the SWP.



Perhaps, but it does describe the SWP perfectly.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 8, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Who do you think you are George Orwell?
> 
> http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/ctc/docs/orwlpatr.htm
> http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/essays/lion-and-unicorn1.htm
> ...



yes excellent indeed .. particularly the Rossi article  

" Orwell became convinced that the Left in England worshipped power; an insight that would carry him eventually to his two masterpieces, Animal Farm and 1984. It was only after Russia became fully totalitarian, he noted acerbicly, that the British Left embraced it. That didn't surprise him. English socialist intellectuals he argued were nothing less than a deracinated class cut off from the mass of the public. 

'I notice,' he wrote of them, 'they always say "under socialism". They look forward to being on top with all other underneath being told what is good for them'. .. 

Since down deep the intellectuals worshipped power Orwell believed they would never be able to motivate the masses and bring about a real revolution."  ouch  

and  bingo

 "The patriotism of the middle and working classes which Orwell appealed to was largely an instinctive reaction among the English. It had about it a sense of decency and fair play that distinguished it from the uglier forms of patriotism in the recent past. It was a throwback to the initial meaning of the word, a love of the familiar in the form of your land and your people. The very failure of fascism or communism to take root in England Orwell believed was a hopeful sign."   the left have ignored this for too long 

" By patriotism I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige.. ., for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality." 

i do not agree with orwell and bragg about using patriotism but let us at least understand it ffs


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Perhaps, but it does describe the SWP perfectly.



Orwell's shock tactic was aimed at left intellectuals generally, part of as he termed, a 'hopelessly degenerated intelligentsia' focussed on power. The SWP is just one tiny part of today's intellectual left.

But I see we're getting away from the subject of this thread and onto yet another let's take the piss out of the SWP/trots type derail.

The future lies with the proles.





......


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Oct 8, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> simply attacking people who come out with 'patriotic' views, who are against whio they see as knockers, as fascists and racists is more likely to push these people to the right instead of engaging and chnaging minds



This i completely agree with 100 percent and have said the same many a time. I do not believe that the tactic adopted by some left groups of screaming nazi and bnp will work, indeed it has and will continue to be counter productive.

When i say the group are muddled, i mean the political message coming from their protests are muddled, mixed up and can easily be discredited.. they are trying not to let the racism shine out of them, not very successfully.. but they are trying.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 8, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> This i completely agree with 100 percent and have said the same many a time. I do not believe that the tactic adopted by some left groups of screaming nazi and bnp will work, indeed it has and will continue to be counter productive.
> 
> When i say the group are muddled, i mean the political message coming from their protests are muddled, mixed up and can easily be discredited.. they are trying not to let the racism shine out of them, not very successfully.. but they are trying.


 yep  generally but what is harder to discredit is their opposition to violent jihadism which 99% of the pop, muslim and non muslim, share


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2009)

purplex said:


> Someone bring a sound system to disrupt their two minutes silence please.
> Who the fuck are they to demand anything of anyone.
> Fuck them and fuck their silence. Pricks.



which is exactly the sort of unthinking tactic that would be disastrous in terms of news coverage.Whilst you are about it why not burn some Union Jacks as well.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> which is exactly the sort of unthinking tactic that would be disastrous in terms of news coverage.Whilst you are about it why not burn some Union Jacks as well.



Thing is though,  if this happens in Glasgow, pr or not, the Union Flag has entirely different connotations to a rather large section of the population and doesn't have the 'benign' associations for so many as it does in England.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> which is exactly the sort of unthinking tactic that would be disastrous in terms of news coverage.Whilst you are about it why not burn some Union Jacks as well.


 yes


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 9, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Thing is though,  if this happens in Glasgow, pr or not, the Union Flag has entirely different connotations to a rather large section of the population and doesn't have the 'benign' associations for so many as it does in England.


 fair play but in the media and to the public generally it would not play well


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 9, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> fair play but in the media and to the public generally it would not play well



Almost certainly, however like it or not a group of openlly and not so openly loyalist leaning 'types' getting lairy in Glasgow city centre will undoubtedly receive a response and plod know this. 

Btw, away back when the 'Away team' levelled the BNP paper sale on Brick Lane a Union Flag taken from the BNP was burnt in the streets with little if any comeback and that was in the East End with all it's blitz spirit connotations. I know we're in a different period to 1993 but this is not an English city.....


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Thing is though,  if this happens in Glasgow, pr or not, the Union Flag has entirely different connotations to a rather large section of the population and doesn't have the 'benign' associations for so many as it does in England.



The potential combination of some hippy types setting up a 'sound system' disrupting a two minutes silence is probably the best pr the BNP could possibly have for discrediting 'anti fascism' in England.Similarly any pictures of Asian youth anywhere next to a burning flag is going to crank up the tension not just in Manchester but nationally.

On a different note the EDL have now been assigned an additional pub on Piccadily Gardens. I hope it isn't the Kro Bar.


----------



## purplex (Oct 9, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> which is exactly the sort of unthinking tactic that would be disastrous in terms of news coverage.Whilst you are about it why not burn some Union Jacks as well.



Be silent, shut up now, I have ordered your silence, the silence is for Dodi who died with Princess Diana. I demand you be silent. 

Is this an official silence? or some blokes looking to cause trouble. The BNP are already up in arms apparently about the silence being broken even though it hasnt even happened yet.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 9, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Almost certainly, however like it or not a group of openlly and not so openly loyalist leaning 'types' getting lairy in Glasgow city centre will undoubtedly receive a response and plod know this.
> 
> Btw, away back when the 'Away team' levelled the BNP paper sale on Brick Lane a Union Flag taken from the BNP was burnt in the streets with little if any comeback and that was in the East End with all it's blitz spirit connotations. I know we're in a different period to 1993 but this is not an English city.....


 yes i am sure glasgow is different .. but generally lefties/asians burning Jacks on TV doesn't play well imho .. the incident at Brick Lane was i doubt much publicised .. this manc demo will be media saturated 

i think the point remains that EDL have the jump on us at the mo .. the left as Eric Blair so ably points out above D) don't get what is going on here ( and again we can not be sure of who is behind the EDL but i refer to the groundswell of anti jihadi and 'patriotic' opinion) so have an utterly muddled strategy that has the potential to do serious damage to the progressive cause ..


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 9, 2009)

Look - burning a union flag can mean many things. It could be a sign of wanting to secede from the Union - it could be a sign of disapproval/displeasure with the acts of the British Government - it could be a sign of not feeling proud or part of Britain for political/cultural/social reasons - whichever it is, it's futile to get worked up about it. 

It's also not illegal to burn flags, and the companies who produce flags like it because their sales go up and it's good for business. :rolleyes"


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

Live link Manchester

http://qik.com/video/3155209


----------



## smokedout (Oct 10, 2009)

live reports from MEN, 30 arrests so far

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1159175_live__edl_protest_in_manchester


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## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

> The first arrest took place in Birmingham - scene of two previous violent clashes triggered by EDL - before the lunchtime protest in Manchester had even begun.
> 
> A 39-year-old man, who was believed to be travelling to Manchester, was arrested in Birmingham on suspicion of distributing racially aggravated material and possessing cocaine.



Source.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

interview with mixed race scouser edler http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8298437.stm


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8300732.stm?ls  yet again is it the BBC bias/editingor is it the nature of the two sides but, as always, to the vast majority of people, the EDL will come across better


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> interview with mixed race scouser edler http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8298437.stm


 
I note he's convinced that 'the culture is being changed to Muslim' as loads of Mosques are being built and feels it's important to 'preserve Christmas'.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I note he's convinced that 'the culture is being changed to Muslim' as loads of Mosques are being built and feels it's important to 'preserve Christmas'.



 the interviewer was good ( and right generally not totally .. there are areas were there have been real issues around culture but very few) ) and challenging on this but i thought 'mike' trumped him when he said something like 'as there are so few extremists why isn't something done' ..

 . i also think it is easy to be smug and cosmopolitan and dismiss people when they talk about their perceptions .. yes perceptions are often wrong but they usually do indicate something real and important . in this political impotence and frustartion .. and for many w/c people the towns and cities where they live have been changed by immigration .. it is too easy to demand of people they accept things that capitalism decides that they have no choice of ..  and then condemn them for raising issues about these changes ..  if we dismiss people so easily there is always you know who to step in and offer support


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

from edl facebook 


Mario Jbc wrote at 20:01

Publicity is always good and normals citizens out there will, sooner or later, realise we're on their side. Our number is increasing and I take my hat off to those who made to Manchester. So far I've seen reports on BBC and Sky news. The BBC report was alright, but short, and the Sky news one was extremely biased: A fucking uaf representative said some rubbish against us but we were not given the chance to say a word. Typical. Well, let's wait for the 8 o'clock news. EDL WILL GET BIGGER AND BIGGER! WELL DONE LADS!

More publicity (but with a leftist bias): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/628...-League-will-the-flames-of-hatred-spread.html 

Nigel Hall (Leeds) wrote at 19:58

roll on leeds, get those leaflets sent out this week please.

Nigel Hall (Leeds) wrote at 19:57

great to see such a turnout. How did the left become such a dilusioned set of middle class luvvies. In years gone by the left would have marched against Islamists - shame on you in the UAf defending the real Fascists.

Harry Ratcliffe wrote at 19:54

well done today lads in manchester, those fucking UAF are scum, they say they are fighting racism today, whats racist about patriotic people protesting against radical muslims the fucking idiots..........

Gordon Thomas (Manchester) wrote at 19:51

Top day today everybody a really good show of strength put on. As for gettin smashed and being run out of manchester. hahahaha. the only people runnin were the UAF when they charged at EDL escort leavin demo and then shit themselves when about 1000 lads charged them. Fuckin wankers. We owned manchester today. Roll on Leeds.


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## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2009)

1000 lads. Come on this is ITK bollocks


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## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

basically they are cock a hoop tonight  .. well done the wiberal weft


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> 1000 lads. Come on this is ITK bollocks


 thats the numbers we are getting from people up there mate .. 700 in the kettle and a few hundred who didn't want to or didn't get in


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## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2009)

I call bullshit then.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I call bullshit then.


 the report is from someone sound mate who doesn't exaggerate afaik .. and BBC says too .. on EDL saying 170 from Bolton alone

ETA ETA sorry sorry sorry if you referring to a 1000 lads charging i don't know and yes that sounds extremely unlikely!!


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> from edl facebook



Why are you posting this nonsense?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> basically they are cock a hoop tonight



About what?


----------



## where to (Oct 10, 2009)

According to the BBC there were around 700 members from the EDL and 1,400 members from UAF.

Manchester Evening News quoted Police saying there were 1,000 UAF protestors and 600 EDL protestors in piccadilly gardens at around 3pm.

Final report by the Manchester Evening News said there were several hundred EDL protesters and more than 1,000 from the UAF.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

durutti why are you banging on about the EDF as if they are anything but a bunch of muppets who represent nothing but themselves. Anyone who knows anything about it knows they were started a group of racist idiots wanting to kick stuff off, probably with some BNP unofficially involved. Sure some idiots might get taken in by their we're not racist we just don't like muslims and mosques crap but who gives a fuck. Anyone with an ounce of common sense will know what they are about.

They don't represent working class concerns, they're a joke. So maybe stop posting up comments from a bunch of tossers on a facebook group and go and do something useful.

And everyone knows the far left are useless, stop whinging about it, they don't represent anyone either so stop obsessing about it.

As for being cock a hoop most of these wankers are the kind that give it all the bollox on the terraces and then run home and make up a load of shit about what they got up to that day. Wouldn't listen to a word they've got to say, they're sad no lifes.


----------



## laptop (Oct 10, 2009)

Do I understand correctly that durutti has got so fed up with being pwned here that he's now an EDL supporter?



The question remains: would that be a shift to the right, or the left?


----------



## Davo1 (Oct 10, 2009)

The bloke from hnh says 600 - 700. There was alot more than normal, but I think that is something to do with imports from Greater Manchester. NO WAY was it one thousand.

'We' (what ever that means these days) outnumbered them. It was embarrassing tho.  I wouldn't go to another one.

Martin Smith ran past me sweating heavily and screaming something about 'gathering the troops'. Horrible, deeply horrible......


----------



## sonny61 (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> About what?



Because, I am guessing, that was a big turnout for them despite all the threats coming from anti fascists on the Internet over the last few weeks.
The threats against them, or actual violence has not deterred them.
They seem to be growing in numbers and becoming more capable of defending themsleves.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

Big turn out? 600-700 people. Get a grip.

Martin Smith, what a mug that bloke is. Gathering troops, you couldn't make it up. What are they sending SWSS into the TA these days?


----------



## Davo1 (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Big turn out? 600-700 people. Get a grip.
> 
> Martin Smith, what a mug that bloke is. Gathering troops, you couldn't make it up. What are they sending SWSS into the TA these days?



he's a fucking liability.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 One Stop Shop Laptop .. with respect, get your respective fucking heads out of your fucking respective arses!  ok?? 

btw the numbers i have given come form a regular Urb75 poster .. i trust him more than the media numbers


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

laptop said:


> Do I understand correctly that durutti has got so fed up with being pwned here that he's now an EDL supporter?
> 
> 
> 
> The question remains: would that be a shift to the right, or the left?



supporter? i'm the leader you dope


----------



## sonny61 (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Big turn out? 600-700 people. Get a grip.
> 
> Martin Smith, what a mug that bloke is. Gathering troops, you couldn't make it up. What are they sending SWSS into the TA these days?



The EDL demos in Birmingham looked very small compared to the Manchester demo. It has been the anti fascists who have said recent EDL demos have had about fifty on them.

Your correct 600-700 is not a huge number, put it is going up.
The question is, will those numbers grow?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> Because, I am guessing,



Don't apply for 'Deal, or No Deal?' loser.


----------



## sonny61 (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Don't apply for 'Deal, or No Deal?' loser.



You live in Manchester don't you?
Did you go?


----------



## belboid (Oct 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8300732.stm?ls  yet again is it the BBC bias/editingor is it the nature of the two sides but, as always, to the vast majority of people, the EDL will come across better



bollocks, most of the mancs there thought they looked like 'thugs'.  They twice got a smattering of applause as they marched, but they got far far more blank stars and mutterings of 'arseholes' and the like from the passers by.  

The report you link to is quite atrocious.  It is probably about right about the EDL numbers, there might have been a few more even.  But there were at least that many (1400) antis within Piccadilly Gardens and a hell of a lot more around the outside, refusing to get kettled in. The line that the EDL only became riled after the UAF 'charge' is laughable.

for most of the day the idot racists (and they very very clearly were just that, no matter that they can turn up a couple of 'non-whites') wre contained in a small area, completely outnumbered and pathetic. They tried a march in the morning but were kept to a couple of backstreets, and couldnt move an inch without a massive police escort. A very sad bunch of fat old white men, several with BNP badges on, and chanting slogans which rather undercut the lie about them only being interested in 'extreme islam' (No More Mosques and No Surrender to the IRA berng just two).  All looked good at that point.

By four/half four tho, the cops (who had been very nice to the racists all day) escorted the lot from the Gardens to meet up with another group of 100 or so just around the corner.  And then another load came out of apub (or so it appeared from where I was), and sudden;y there were hundreds of the fuckers.

We followed them and their police escort as best we could. At one point we suddenly realised there were six of us, 750 of them and just a thin line of very well tooled up coppers betweeen us. Oh how joyous it is be to be thankful for riot filth!  Fortunately a few more joined us shortly after that, but we were still heavilly outnumbered.

They were allowed to march to Victoria Station and held a rally by the New Century House - hto it looked like they were as interested in their speakers as most lefties are at one of our rallies - ie not very much. Most were then bussed out somewhere.

Had chats with a few of the EDL youth who were hanging around - including one notable mixed race lad. he really was a fucking arsehole, and knew he was full of shit.  that wasn't true of all of them tho, a couple did seem like simply naive footie lads up with their mates. You could have a proper argument with them, and one said something quite significant, imo.  He was demonstrating against islam, even tho he knew the government was a far bigger problem, 'but we cant do anything about them, can we?'  Says a lot.

Went to a pub after and came across the SWP having a post match analysis.  Guess what? it was an 'amazing success' - they kept them out of Piccadilly Gardens (mm, sort of, ok) sold 200 papers and recruited 8 people!

The fact that the enemey held their rally and march unoppossed seemed to pass them by.

only other thing to note, was how fucking easy it was to rile the arsehole - just pointing and laighing seemed to drive them out of their tiny minds.  I'm a traitor apparently


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

durutti your the one needing to get your head out of your arse.

Running round an internet board whinging about the EDF and the far left. It's pathetic, only someone stuck in an alternative reality would think either are worth going on about, and you obsess over it.

The EDF aren't going to go anywhere, they will carry on for a while and then fizzle out. There is only so long a one trick pony can carry on for before everyone works out they are a waste of space.

And to be honest anyone who isn't an internet obsessive like durutti or a wanna be Danny Dyer knows that already. You might get a few hundred mugs turning up for a day out from their sad lives, but there is only so long that will last for. The BNP might pick up a few members from it all but thats about it.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> MC5 One Stop Shop Laptop .. with respect, get your respective fucking heads out of your fucking respective arses!  ok??
> 
> btw the numbers i have given come form a regular Urb75 poster .. i trust him more than the media numbers



HnH reporting that the bloke arrested in Birmingham, mentioned earlier in this thread, is one of the leaders of the EDL. Now, if true as reported, 'carrying inflammatory racist leaflets with a supply of cocaine in his pocket', then this groups slow decline will begin earlier than I thought.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

sonny61 said:


> You live in Manchester don't you?
> Did you go?



fuck off tool


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> HnH reporting that the bloke arrested in Birmingham, mentioned earlier in this thread, is one of the leaders of the EDL. Now, if true as reported, 'carrying inflammatory racist leaflets with a supply of cocaine in his pocket', then this groups slow decline will begin earlier than I thought.



This bloke? http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/


----------



## belboid (Oct 10, 2009)

is that a yes or a no?


----------



## sonny61 (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> fuck off tool



So you did not go then


----------



## purplex (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> HnH reporting that the bloke arrested in Birmingham, mentioned earlier in this thread, is one of the leaders of the EDL. Now, if true as reported, 'carrying inflammatory racist leaflets with a supply of cocaine in his pocket', then this groups slow decline will begin earlier than I thought.



The police often do what they like, neither of those reasons for arrest may actually be reality. The cocaine could be a legal high and the leaflets could be edl promotional leaflets.


----------



## greenman (Oct 10, 2009)

It seems to me that the key questions are not being asked.

These are - what do those "running the show" behind the scenes of the EDL hope to achieve?  What is their strategy and how do they see it panning out?

Once you have made your mind up about this, or made the best educated guess you can, then you are in a better position to see what the appropriate stance towards them and method of countering them might be.

If most people on here would say that they are committed to politics that are about equality, civil liberties and the best strategies for uniting organised workers and communities to struggle against the ruling class and reaction then we must ask how the EDL, if allowed "a free run" might impact on that.

It is clear that the EDL are not about some intellectual, legalistic or libertarian opposition to a clearly defined Islamic fundamentalist "threat".  The EDL are about street conflict, which is why they do not seek to mobilise Daily Mail readers and the "respectable" working class, but football hooligans.  How could anyone who sought to articulate opposition to small groups of isolated extremists believe that mass street confrontations with the left and largely non-extremist asian youth would help their cause?  It is far more likely that these confrontations are the object, with a view to leading to larger and larger street confrontations.  The object, as with the street strategy of 1970s and 80s fascists is to gain victories that embolden reactionary youth and draw them to their side.  This against the backdrop of an increasingly successful fascist electoral strategy whose architects deny any link to the street thugs (and the leaders of the street thugs help them to distance themselves by talking about black and white uniting to fight Islamism). 

I think it is a classic "pincer strategy" where two seemingly "opposed" movements actually mutually support each other by employing different strategies.  The closest political parallel might be Francoism, where the "revolutionary" violence of the Falange was in theory in opposition to the legalism and conservatism of the Catholic Traditionalist element of the right - but in reality they were two wings of the same movement whose main enemies were social liberalism which eroded their power and  the organised working class that ultimately threatened their existence.

The left in Britain should be very careful not to get crushed in this pincer strategy and bear in mind that the economic/social base which allowed for the defeat of British fascism in the 1970s and 80s is now much more fragmented and weak.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

Last time i confronted any fascists was outside wakefield nick when some masked NF turned up with police with dogs in tandem.

Some have to work at weekends.

When they pop up in the city I live I'll have a look.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

purplex said:


> The police often do what they like, neither of those reasons for arrest may actually be reality. The cocaine could be a legal high and the leaflets could be edl promotional leaflets.



You missed the bit "if true?" I posted.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> durutti your the one needing to get your head out of your arse.
> 
> Running round an internet board whinging about the EDF and the far left. It's pathetic, only someone stuck in an alternative reality would think either are worth going on about, and you obsess over it.
> 
> ...



i spent most of the afternoon with a big group handing out hundreds of community newspapers hundreds of miles away from manchester, mate .. but what i do know is that if you think EDL do not represent what millions of w/c brits think you are nuts .. they may well fizzle out but in the mean time the whole political spectrum will have shifted right


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

greenman said:


> A How could anyone who sought to articulate opposition to small groups of isolated extremists believe that mass street confrontations with the left and largely non-extremist asian youth would help their cause?
> 
> B  It is far more likely that these confrontations are the object, with a view to leading to larger and larger street confrontations.  The object, as with the street strategy of 1970s and 80s fascists is to gain victories that embolden reactionary youth and draw them to their side.  This against the backdrop of an increasingly successful fascist electoral strategy whose architects deny any link to the street thugs (and the leaders of the street thugs help them to distance themselves by talking about black and white uniting to fight Islamism).



A because most of these people are not politically savvy and just hate jihadis e.g at Luton .. plus the like a 

B this is the big unknown .. yes i think there are forces behind who are pushing it to do what you say


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

Well do a bit more then and stop whinging.

yeah some wanna be casual mugs represent the views of millions of working class people. You patronising tosser. One step off calling us working class scum on the estates.

Yeah the whole political spectrum waits with baited breath for the next EDL move. I think they could be the the catalyst for the Fourth Reich. Mug.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

belboid said:


> ... Had chats with a few of the EDL youth who were hanging around - including one notable mixed race lad. he really was a fucking arsehole, and knew he was full of shit.  that wasn't true of all of them tho, a couple did seem like simply naive footie lads up with their mates. You could have a proper argument with them, and one said something quite significant, imo.  He was demonstrating against islam, even tho he knew the government was a far bigger problem, 'but we cant do anything about them, can we?'  Says a lot...


well done for chatting to em .. and yes what that kid says does say a lot ..  
peopel are frustrated and angry and the left have lost contact / communication


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Well do a bit more then and stop whinging.
> 
> yeah some wanna be casual mugs represent the views of millions of working class people. You patronising tosser. One step off calling us working class scum on the estates.
> 
> Yeah the whole political spectrum waits with baited breath for the next EDL move. I think they could be the the catalyst for the Fourth Reich. Mug.



don't be a prick  .. i mean millions agree with their opposition to violent jihad 

( wtf do you get 'calling us w/c scum off estates??' )

when i and others raised about the BNP on here ( and as did Red Action?AFA/IWCA many years ago) about the rise of the BNP we (and they) were ridiculed .. they / we have been shown to have been right .. when CU/EDL started and I raised it on here again I and others were ridiculed .. again it looks like we are more on the ball than others


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

Here we go. The left haven't done this, the left haven't done that. Who gives a fuck. They are irrelevant.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

You are being a prick saying that the EDF in any way represent the views of millions of working class people. Your being a patronising tosser, one step of someone like Julie Waterson, or whatever her name is.

Most working class people don't give a fuck about violent jihad as they know it's pretty low down the list of problems in day to day life. And don't patronise working class people by saying that they are too stupid to realise that the message of the EDF is nothing but a bunch of fuckwits. They should rebrand themselves as mugs against muslims and mosques.


----------



## greenman (Oct 10, 2009)

I think the chances of the EDL strategy succeeding (on their own terms) are very, very slim for various reasons (not least because the state/ruling class establishment would not let it happen and do not need it to happen at this time - there is no real threat to their power at the moment - and I would guess their "leadership" are even more vulnerable to a _flick of the wrist of the beast of state_ than that of the left).  However, I would guess that both the shady forces behind the EDL and elements of the secret state would be very happy to see increased polarisation, communalism and violence disrupting the potential of any possible challenge to the status quo from the left. (Divide and rule)


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

I generally support the IWCA but then again they don't come out with the idiotic crap that you are.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> You are being a prick saying that the EDF in any way represent the views of millions of working class people. Your being a patronising tosser, one step of someone like Julie Waterson, or whatever her name is.
> 
> Most working class people don't give a fuck about violent jihad as they know it's pretty low down the list of problems in day to day life. And don't patronise working class people by saying that they are too stupid to realise that the message of the EDF is nothing but a bunch of fuckwits. They should rebrand themselves as mugs against muslims and mosques.



 OSS you are making stuff up  .. i am simply saying the EDL position of being against muslim extremism is supported by millions including MOST Muslims OK!!??


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

greenman said:


> I think the chances of the EDL strategy succeeding (on their own terms) are very, very slim for various reasons (not least because the state/ruling class establishment would not let it happen and do not need it to happen at this time - there is no real threat to their power at the moment - and I would guess their "leadership" are even more vulnerable to a _flick of the wrist of the beast of state_ than that of the left).  However, both the shady forces behind the EDL and elements of the secret state would be very happy to see increased polarisation, communalism and violence disrupting the potential of any possible challenge to the status quo from the left. (Divide and rule)


 yes this ^^^


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2009)

greenman said:


> I think the chances of the EDL strategy succeeding (on their own terms) are very, very slim for various reasons (not least because the state/ruling class establishment would not let it happen



Already happened.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> I generally support the IWCA but then again they don't come out with the idiotic crap that you are.


 sorry what is it you are active in again?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

You are simply saying that the EDF represent the views of millions of working class people. They don't and anyone who says they do is a patronising tosser.

Most pepole might oppose muslim extremism but at the most time most people know that it's not an issue in day to day life and is not anywhere up there on most peoples lists of concerns. Certainly not enough to go on some half-witted demo, which is only for a bunch of bone heads that haven't got a life.

And most people can see through the EDF and know exactly what they are about and don't need to sit there navel gazing about who is behind them and what they are.


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

Who cares what I'm active in or not active in.


----------



## greenman (Oct 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Already happened.


Clarify?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> You are simply saying that the EDF


who are the edf?


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 10, 2009)

English Defence Fuckwits. Represents millions of working class people.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2009)

greenman said:


> Clarify?




They wanted news and that - nothing else. They got it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> English Defence Fuckwits. Represents millions of working class people.



how very witty.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

*'Marked a D'*

Tom Nairn in his book _The Enchanted Glass_ gives an insight about how this 'backward nationalism' against modernity comes about, but I can't find the reference to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Tom Nairn in his book _The Enchanted Glass_ gives an insight about how this 'backward nationalism' against modernity comes about, but I can't find the reference to it.


pisspoor


----------



## greenman (Oct 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> They wanted news and that - nothing else. They got it.



Well, yes, they have succeeded in their primary objective - what I am asking, is that all it is?   Some short term ego trip for some would-be Hoolie "Generals"?  Or are the "leadership's" objectives longer term - does the strategy have stages 3-10 to follow stages 1-2 we have just witnessed?
(Whether they are capable of carrying out stages 3-10 and whether the state will let them, are of course separate questions.)


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 10, 2009)

I really don't think what plans there are go a lot deeper to be honest.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2009)

greenman said:


> Well, yes, they have succeeded in their primary objective - what I am asking, is that all it is?   Some short term ego trip for some would-be Hoolie "Generals"?  Or are the "leadership's" objectives longer term - does the strategy have stages 3-10 to follow stages 1-2 we have just witnessed?
> (Whether they are capable of carrying out stages 3-10 and whether the state will let them, are of course separate questions.)



I'm telling you it's what i said and that's it. The rest is made up madness.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 10, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> pisspoor



it's late


----------



## greenman (Oct 10, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I'm telling you it's what i said and that's it. The rest is made up madness.



Well, it is speculation.  Cold speculation.

Even if this is _only_ about the "generals" egos, it could still run and run.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2009)

MC5 said:


> it's late



no, your posts are like that in the day too.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 10, 2009)

greenman said:


> Well, it is speculation.  Cold speculation.
> 
> Even if this is _only_ about the "generals" egos, it could still run and run.




It's piss on the wind


----------



## Paul Marsh (Oct 11, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> What are they sending SWSS into the TA these days?



It might put hair on a few chests.

Best idea I've read all week.


----------



## Balbi (Oct 11, 2009)

greenman said:


> It seems to me that the key questions are not being asked.
> 
> These are - what do those "running the show" behind the scenes of the EDL hope to achieve?  What is their strategy and how do they see it panning out?
> 
> ...



http://practicalactivism-cerisa.blogspot.com/2009/09/bnp-edl-uaf-there-may-be-trouble-ahead.html

I had a similar thought after Brum - luckily it's not escalated to my fevered fears


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2009)

The Council, Police and the GM Mosques put at lot of effort both saying that the EDL weren't wanted and asking Muslim youth not to get involved . The turnout from EDL was bigger than expected but the Police were in complete control. tactically the EDL can't go much further. GM Police have set the standard for other forces in effectively hemming them in on a bit of grass in the City Centre and keeping UAF apart from them. The Council and Mosques tactic paid off as here was no repeat of the Birmingham footage and the fact that the demonstrations closed Primark means that neither the EDL or UAF are very popular locally.The Mosques letter was interesting as it encouraged Mosques to open their doors and be seen as community facilities for all residents.

Some footage of the Police being nice to EDL supporters.


----------



## treelover (Oct 11, 2009)

> The Mosques letter was interesting as it encouraged Mosques to open their doors and be seen as community facilities for all residents.



A friend of mine a christian who helps run a Sunday Lunch Club/soup kitchen, etc, recently told me that the local Mosque stepped in when they had funding difficulties, now that is positive integration.


----------



## Grandma Death (Oct 11, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but what i do know is that if you think EDL do not represent what millions of w/c brits think you are nuts



Do you have proof of this or is this just yet another exercise in hyperbole.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 11, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> no, your posts are like that in the day too.



The stats read 14 crap posts per day for the model and 4 for me. So you win.


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## revlon (Oct 11, 2009)

belboid's account of the day is pretty much spot on. 

Although there was a couple of issues need clarifying. Yes the original edl demo started small and pathetic in piccadilly gardens, but the police had a load more edlers waiting down oldham street/tib street which they escorted into the demo around 20 at a time. They escorted one block of about 150 (i'm thinking this was the luton lot because they were all carrying the familiar edl placards), after that their mood became more confident and beligerent as the size of the demo swelled (easily hitting the 750 mark) with lots for competitive chanting and a very up for it edl mob.

Another interesting aspect the counter demo was almost exclusively white - student groups and trade unionists, along with the usual politicos and paper sellers. A few isolated gangs of asian lads milling about. Best moment of the day - swp central committee went running around shouting to everyone to march behind the banner, led everyone out of piccadilly gardens in the opposite direction to the edl demo, found the police wouldn't let them out them came marching defiantly back 30 seconds later to exactly the same position. Comedy gold.

We too followed the march throught the streets of manchester (you were the guy in the bright red adidas tracky top and weller haircut belboid!?) which was utterly dispiriting.

What does this tell us? Without the masses of asian youth (or cannon fodder as the swp call them) the left are absolutely useless at "smashing the nazi bnp off our streets" - even when it's the edl. 

The 2 positons here in dealing with the edl:  
1. don't do anything, flash in the pan, they'll go away 
2. smash the nazi bnp off our streets 
don't seem to be bearing fruit. 

The edl have crossed another threshold, held a very successful demo and march, stood their ground increased their numbers and proved good to their word. Their confidence will be sky rocketing, and the far right will be all over this now.

Got some excellent photos, a couple of seig heilers, will post them up if, when i get hold of them.


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## Davo1 (Oct 11, 2009)

> the far right will be all over this now.



yup, have a look at stormfront unless you're allergic. They're wetting their Nazi knickers about it all. Especially when it comes to recruiting the 'yoof'.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> belboid's account of the day is pretty much spot on.
> 
> Although there was a couple of issues need clarifying. Yes the original edl demo started small and pathetic in piccadilly gardens, but the police had a load more edlers waiting down oldham street/tib street which they escorted into the demo around 20 at a time. They escorted one block of about 150 (i'm thinking this was the luton lot because they were all carrying the familiar edl placards), after that their mood became more confident and beligerent as the size of the demo swelled (easily hitting the 750 mark) with lots for competitive chanting and a very up for it edl mob.
> 
> ...


on to tothill st, off parl sq, 22 nov.


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## Red Cat (Oct 11, 2009)

revlon said:


> swp central committee went running



Are you sure? They're quite elderly these days.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 11, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> on to tothill st, off parl sq, 22 nov.


.....


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## Davo1 (Oct 11, 2009)

Red Cat said:


> Are you sure? They're quite elderly these days.



for your amusement. In these photos is Martin Smith squaring off to a dog:

http://jwarren.co.uk/photos/protest/edl-english-defence-league-manchester/

Also, note the FC United Fan they claim is EDL. unlikely.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 11, 2009)




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## treelover (Oct 12, 2009)

I think the SWP must love these EDL marches, more recruits, a chance to rant and push out their paper, meanwhile, the thinking left , if there is any left, is asking what does the EDL signify, is it a 'flash in the pan' or a new social formation, the numbers at Piccadily were considerable, etc. Its clear though that many working class casuals now have a real hatred of the left and particularly the SWP


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## Fedayn (Oct 12, 2009)

What a shite documentary.


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2009)

Oh, and another thing, while there is clearly far right involvement and a fair few fash involved, to just scream 'nazi scum' at the whole protest will just alienate many on the deomo, many who see themselves as 'patriots' whose grandparents fought the Nazis during the war.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 12, 2009)

Perhaps the opposing forces should craft some better insults?

I AM QUITE AWARE THAT YOU MIGHT POSSIBLY BE AN EXPRESSION OF W/C NATIONALISM BUT IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT YOU ARE CRYPTO RACIST CUNTS!

or perhaps
I AM SYMPATHETIC BUT YOU ARE A BUNCH OF BONEHEADS ON A TRANSPARENT ANTI MUSLIM TRIP 

that'll work


----------



## treelover (Oct 12, 2009)

funny ha ha, but i don't get your point, dc, are you accusing me of being a fellow traveller or something?


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## DotCommunist (Oct 12, 2009)

nah, just think these lot are nowt but people who can't ruck at the football no more and have an anti-muslim bent.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

treelover said:


> Oh, and another thing, while there is clearly far right involvement and a fair few fash involved, to just scream 'nazi scum' at the whole protest will just alienate many on the deomo, many who see themselves as 'patriots' whose grandparents fought the Nazis during the war.



if their grandfathers fought nazis they might wonder why so many in their nasty bonehead group are zeig heiling


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

greenman said:


> It seems to me that the key questions are not being asked.
> 
> These are - what do those "running the show" behind the scenes of the EDL hope to achieve?  What is their strategy and how do they see it panning out?
> 
> ...



This is probably the best thing I have read on the subject. Thanks.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> thats the numbers we are getting from people up there mate .. 700 in the kettle and a few hundred who didn't want to or didn't get in



700 is utter garbage mate. 250 would be stretching it. Yes, there were others who didn't get in. so possibly 400 in total, which is 400 too many of course.

There's no point in blaming the antis for any sense of victory among the EDL. Those few hundred would have turned up and felt wonderful about themselves regardless.

We are fucked if we do and fucked if we don't. As ever, it is the keyboard commentariat who think they know best, simplistically supposing that "a plauge on both their houses" will suffice as an argument.

The 1 thousand plus who demonstrated against them were not UAF. They were generally just Mancunians who detest ill-disguised hatemongers and fascists.


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## derf (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> if their grandfathers fought nazis they might wonder why so many in their nasty bonehead group are zeig heiling



How about because they are as thick as pig shit?

This lot made it onto the news over here this morning. Did they look like the bunch of cunts they are, or what? I just hope not too many people realised they were British. I am ashamed to be even slightly from the same country as the bastards.


----------



## purplex (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> 700 is utter garbage mate. 250 would be stretching it. Yes, there were others who didn't get in. so possibly 400 in total, which is 400 too many of course.



Are you suggesting the authorities are talking up the numbers? Thats most odd behaviour for a demo.


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## sonny61 (Oct 12, 2009)

There are a few videos of the event on youtube.
There is one which shows the EDL being escorted into Piccadilly Gardens, at a guess I would say around a thousand.

Big numbers for them, they do seem to be growing claiming they have branches all over the country.
Believe that or not.


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## West_Ham_Wham (Oct 12, 2009)

Another report from Permanent Revolution:



> Around a thousand fascist lead nationalists, escorted by mounted police, dog handlers and five deep rows of riot cops, marched through Manchester on Saturday 10th October. They were met with determined resistance by 2000 anti-fascists. But this was no victory for the anti-fa and the Nazis will take much from the day.



http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2855


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## treelover (Oct 12, 2009)

for the PR lot its the 70's or even the 30's all over again,


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Some footage of the Police being nice to EDL supporters.



got any footage of the cops cheerily escorting the EDL whereever they wanted to go?  Or of them looking the other way as groups of up to forty were going through the streets chanting (and not just the 'approved' edl slogans, but ones which showed their unalloyed racism) and threatening non-white locals? I mean, you wouldn't be so daft as to base your view on 45 seconds of crapply shot fotage would you?


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

West_Ham_Wham said:


> Another report from Permanent Revolution:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2855


Good report. Can you please spell 'gauleiter' correctly tho if you really have to use it?


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> as groups of up to forty were going through the streets chanting (and not just the 'approved' edl slogans, but ones which showed their unalloyed racism) and threatening non-white locals?


tell us more. What did you see/hear?


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Do you have proof of this or is this just yet another exercise in hyperbole.



well, it is right, in a very bland and almost meaningless way.  At least 99.9% of the population disagree eith radical islam, so they 'agree with' the EDL to that extent.  But of course at least 99.8% disagree with fascism too, so 'agree with' the UAF too.  Why durutti chose to mentin only one of these.....

The vast majority of people, even those who fucking hate radical islam, aren't going to want to ally themselves with a bunch of obvious hoolies like the EDL, even some on their demo recognised that a bunch of white blokes screaming 'No More Mosques' are going to do fuck all to stop muslims 'radicalising.'


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> 700 is utter garbage mate. 250 would be stretching it. Yes, there were others who didn't get in. so possibly 400 in total, which is 400 too many of course.



wrong. At the very least 700.


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> tell us more. What did you see/hear?



mentioned some of it, the No Surrenders, some anti-semitic crap, more anti-muslim (any muslim) stuff, you can probably guess the kinda thing. The threats were rather pathetic, fingers across the throat stuff, bit of shoving, but all allowed to continue merrilly with the cops looking on, unconcerned. Much of it was laughable, but you wouldn't want to bump into any of the cunts on a backstreet...


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

revlon said:


> Another interesting aspect the counter demo was almost exclusively white - student groups and trade unionists, along with the usual politicos and paper sellers. A few isolated gangs of asian lads milling about.



a big group of asian youth did turn up quite late on, followed the march for a whiel but then somehow thought it was going to go on a different route to the one it did, and went off in the opposite direction!



> Best moment of the day - swp central committee went running around shouting to everyone to march behind the banner, led everyone out of piccadilly gardens in the opposite direction to the edl demo, found the police wouldn't let them out them came marching defiantly back 30 seconds later to exactly the same position. Comedy gold.


aah, we saw that from outside the gardens and was trying to work out what was going on, looked utterly farcical.



> (you were the guy in the bright red adidas tracky top and weller haircut belboid!?)



that is _so_ not me!


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> wrong. At the very least 700.



Sorry, Bellers, agree to disagree and all that. The penned off bit of Picc gardens was low hundreds IMO. 

Around 4o clock ish they were joined by another 100 plus who were escorted in from the direction of The Arndale.

There were a generality of muppets hanging around loosely that might have made it higher, but not as high as your estimate IMO. What do you base yours on?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> a big group of asian youth did turn up quite late on, followed the march for a whiel but then somehow thought it was going to go on a different route to the one it did, and went off in the opposite direction!
> 
> 
> aah, we saw that from outside the gardens and was trying to work out what was going on, looked utterly farcical.



That was around the time where 40 or so people tried to break the police line protecting the fascists, using the silly parade idea to do so.

The antis were so lacking in asians partly because plod had been round to all the mosques and told them to stay away via the Imams.


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## Stoat Boy (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> The vast majority of people, even those who fucking hate radical islam, aren't going to want to ally themselves with a bunch of obvious hoolies like the EDL, even some on their demo recognised that a bunch of white blokes screaming 'No More Mosques' are going to do fuck all to stop muslims 'radicalising.'



This is true but it still does not alter the fact that the EDL seems to have sprung out of now where and I would say represents a small but  jagged part of a much larger iceberg of what could be called 'English Nationalist sentiment' ( a clumsy term I would concede )

Now I would agree that there is nothing more to the EDL beyond organising some very noisy demo's (although that fact alone should not just be dismissed because it still takes something in the organisers make up to go from a standing start to creating what has been seen in various demos) and that without a coherent political ideology its just noisy pissing in the wind but I sense that if somebody was to emerge from the Political world with anything approaching a political charisma then English nationalism could, and I stress the could, become a significant force in the future. 

Now I accept that UKIP are seen as a one issue party but they still pull in some very respectable figures in elections, including local ones and they show that there is an appetite for what could be considered respectable nationalist ideals. 

It’s all very much up in the ether and given that the political consensus in this country seems to be conspiring to squash any real English national sentiments , including that within UKIP who might be considered that natural home for such thoughts given that a pro European attitude is not something that is going to sit naturally with many who would define themselves as English nationalists then it might not happen but I think the possibility is there and that the English Democrats, who have the Mayoralty in Doncaster, might well be a party that could become more significant in the future.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

If any group consolidates the sentiment stoatboy talks about, UKIP wont be it. Different demographic, philosophy and strategy. Frankly UKIP are too intelligent to be wrapped up in any shit like this, not that it's saying much.

This is far more BNP and possibly ED territory. I buy the "English Nationalist Sentiment" analysis, The tories used to soak up a lot of it but that is never going to be possible with the northern white working class.

I saw the roots of these problems earlier in the decade, teaching FE in Ashton where there was almost complete self segragation between white and asian. In schools it starts around puberty. Younger children are less corrupted by mistrust.

The main sentiment of EDL strikes me as being "we dont like them (insert P word)"

The irony is that their vision of England is even more moribund and ignorant than that of the BNP. Theirs is an England of the deperate and the dim, the culture of the binge drinker and little more. You wont get a Northumbrian pipe tune or 10 lines of Shakespeare out of any of them. And they probably drink foreign lager piss to boot.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Now that's what I call English Culture:


----------



## Stoat Boy (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> If any group consolidates the sentiment stoatboy talks about, UKIP wont be it. Different demographic, philosophy and strategy. Frankly UKIP are too intelligent to be wrapped up in any shit like this, not that it's saying much.



I would agree but I dont think it will be the BNP. Once again they might be seen as another jagged part of the same Ice berg but they are just on the fringes. That form of right wing extremism has been with us since the 30's and I think that its probably gone as far as it is likely to. 

And it probably wont even be the English Democrats for all sorts of reasons but the underlying sentiment is there and I think its being underestimated for all sorts of reasons, not least because we have a politically evolved 'culture' that is just not geared up to either understand it or lead it. 

But that does not get rid of it nor negate the potential upheaval that could come from it.


----------



## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> This is true but it still does not alter the fact that the EDL seems to have sprung out of now where and I would say represents a small but  jagged part of a much larger iceberg of what could be called 'English Nationalist sentiment' ( a clumsy term I would concede )


While that sentiment surely exists, I think you need to pinpoint more precisely that this whole thing also springs from 'racist sentiment' among football hoolies and the desire to turn that into a street presence/action. Since the BNP shifted to the ballot box as their main strategy there has been a lack of opportunity for physical force racists/fascists to manifest themselves.

A cursory glance at Stormdrain and football bulletin boards will demonstrate that the these EDL demos have had NF, Loyalist and weird little Nazi sects crawling all over them (apart from the ones that think 'the EDL is a ZOG Front' that is ).


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Good post Stoatboy.

"not least because we have a politically evolved 'culture' that is just not geared up to either understand it or lead it" 

As someone who despairs of our political "culture" it is still more developed than where these people are at.

The organisers of EDL seem pretty capable but the vast majority of participants are just a big zero in terms of political nous. Their only politics seems to be that they dont like muslims and do like vacuous petty nationalism, taking the easy target of fundementalism as a basis for any "debate". The reason why our political culture cant engage isnt too much the fault of that culture (for once) They cant engage because the hoolies and numbskulls are just too politically dim to engage with or dont want to be engaged with. They just want to cause aggro.

One means of engaging from the left is a very populist tack against the real enemy de jour - the banking elites. 

By happy chance there is a "pots and pans" protest tomorrow starting at The Northern Rock on Albert Square, 5.30pm.


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> By happy chance there is a "pots and pans" protest tomorrow starting at The Northern Rock on *Albert Square*, 5.30pm.


Walford?


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Do you have proof of this or is this just yet another exercise in hyperbole.


what you think people support jihad?? lol


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> Walford?



Sorry, Manchester.


----------



## revlon (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Sorry, Bellers, agree to disagree and all that. The penned off bit of Picc gardens was low hundreds IMO.
> 
> Around 4o clock ish they were joined by another 100 plus who were escorted in from the direction of The Arndale.
> 
> There were a generality of muppets hanging around loosely that might have made it higher, but not as high as your estimate IMO. What do you base yours on?



seriously mate, watch the video. Head of the march kicks in at 1 minute.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> 700 is utter garbage mate. 250 would be stretching it. Yes, there were others who didn't get in. so possibly 400 in total, which is 400 too many of course.
> 
> There's no point in blaming the antis for any sense of victory among the EDL. Those few hundred would have turned up and felt wonderful about themselves regardless.
> 
> ...


the numbers are not mine but from quite a few people 

re "fucked if we do fucked if we don't" t

otally disagree .. my interest in this, as in the BNP, is that these things are NOT beaten on the high streets but in the community .. the liberal left (UAF/SWP/FRFI lol/WP lol) etc have long abandoned these white ( and a few black) working class kids ..that is what all this is showing .. fuck me we KNEW how stupid that was back in the 7ts when the NF were getting involved in football ..

 the (liberal)  left write off the potential footsoldiers of the far right at all of our peril


----------



## smokedout (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> One means of engaging from the left is a very populist tack against the real enemy de jour - the banking elites.



and the jews, don't forget the jews


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

West_Ham_Wham said:


> Another report from Permanent Revolution:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/2855



contradictory article imho .. correctly they say  "The overwhelmingly poor white working class EDL supporters .. overwhelmingly male, young, working class support of the EDL" etc but then the rest of the article is " nazi nazi racist boot boys bnp racists blah blah" .. daft


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> what you think people support jihad?? lol



Jihad means struggle. Which struggles are you opposing, and which are you for?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks Revlon and Durruti. That's more than I thought for sure, still skeptical about "1000" though. I'd accept well over 500 on the basis of that vid though. Pretty disturbing what this country is comming to.

Durruti

_these things are NOT beaten on the high streets but in the community_

Obviously so, but on the day are we just to sit at home while these twats intimidate and jerk off over how great they are?

Your list of failed organisations in this regard misses off the main offender. I recall a mass organisation founded on working class interests called "The Labour Party". BNP success in North Manchester is founded on Labour complacency and arrogance far more than the oversights of a far smaller group of more genuine leftists.

I was on the platform at the recent UAF national conference in Manchester (I say on the platform because I wouldnt have gone otherwise). The Labour speaker (former Mayor) said - "perhaps it's time we got back to door knocking". "go back to "...no wonder we're in the shit. These twats have 3 councillors in Moston where the fascists came 2nd in a bye-election last year. If they aren't door knocking constantly then a fascist victory is on their heads, not UAF, SWP, liberals, greens or anyone else.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

smokedout said:


> and the jews, don't forget the jews



Oh. A strawman. To be fair, this is quite a constructive thread.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> well, it is right, in a very bland and almost meaningless way.  At least 99.9% of the population disagree eith radical islam, so they 'agree with' the EDL to that extent.  But of course at least 99.8% disagree with fascism too, so 'agree with' the UAF too.  Why durutti chose to mentin only one of these.....
> 
> The vast majority of people, even those who fucking hate radical islam, aren't going to want to ally themselves with a bunch of obvious hoolies like the EDL, even some on their demo recognised that a bunch of white blokes screaming 'No More Mosques' are going to do fuck all to stop muslims 'radicalising.'



bb .. look at your first sentance .. and remember that the EDL stress ( maybe dishonestly) publicaly that they TOO are against fascism .. 

it is a brillinat PR strategy .. we have a few options 

1) try to prove that they are or are backed by fascists .. ok works to an extent but they just roll out a few balck lads burn a swastika and hold up a we are not BNP placard and who then has egg on their face .. it is the same as continually calling the BNP fascist .. it doesn't always work

2) attack them physically, as fascists, to drive off the periphery .. i think this could work but would more likely seriously backfire as many of the kids WANT a ruck 

3) accept that untill we are involved with the sort of people who are following the BNP or EDL that we haven't got a hope in hell of communicating with them .. the left come across to those kids like a drganged religious nutter in the streeet does to you 

and this 'hoolies' thing .. tell me do you think the average w/c person relates more to the UAF brigade of these 'hoolies'???


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> is that these things are NOT beaten on the high streets but in the community



you ned to do both.  most of those out on saturday won't get involved in any 'community work', thats not their interest.  oppose them where they are, if that is marching, then oppose them there.



durruti02 said:


> contradictory article imho .. correctly they say  "The overwhelmingly poor white working class EDL supporters .. overwhelmingly male, young, working class support of the EDL" etc but then the rest of the article is " nazi nazi racist boot boys bnp racists blah blah" .. daft



well, there were a fuckload of blatant nazis there, should anyone pretend there weren't?


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> This is true but it still does not alter the fact that the EDL seems to have sprung out of now where and I would say represents a small but  jagged part of a much larger iceberg of what could be called 'English Nationalist sentiment' ( a clumsy term I would concede )
> 
> Now I would agree that there is nothing more to the EDL beyond organising some very noisy demo's (although that fact alone should not just be dismissed because it still takes something in the organisers make up to go from a standing start to creating what has been seen in various demos) and that without a coherent political ideology its just noisy pissing in the wind but I sense that if somebody was to emerge from the Political world with anything approaching a political charisma then English nationalism could, and I stress the could, become a significant force in the future.
> 
> ...



spot on again SB .. yes i think EDP are the ones who would like to think they will do well out of this .. they have the most 'names' in the background ( and indeed this is why some of the anti-BNP stuff comes from .. seen a few little digs at Griffin e.g.) .. bUT in reality as people are not that savvy i think it is inevitably BNP who will benefit


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> you ned to do both.  most of those out on saturday won't get involved in any 'community work', thats not their interest.  oppose them where they are, if that is marching, then oppose them there.
> 
> 
> well, there were a fuckload of blatant nazis there, should anyone pretend there weren't?



1) but that is the problem .. no community work .. white working class vote BNP .. really fucking simple equation 

2) not saying there were not .. it is that PR article imho is swinging from saying they were all active nazis to saying that most were just kids ( which is what i think )


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> bb .. look at your first sentance .. and remember that the EDL stress ( maybe dishonestly) publicaly that they TOO are against fascism ..
> 
> it is a brillinat PR strategy .. we have a few options
> 
> ...



not much in it, most people on saturday seemed to wish they'd both piss off and let them shop in peace. Slightly more in favour of the anti-edl lot. Obviously pretty much every black n asian person was on the right side, didn't buy the 'oh were only against extremist islam' for one second. they probably have a decent idea of the bullshit lies rcists tell tho

No one, other than you and some people who desperately _want_ to believe buys their anti-fascist shite, its obviously dishonest.


----------



## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 1) but that is the problem .. no community work .. white working class vote BNP .. really fucking simple equation


fopr a fucking simpleton maybe. the EDL dont do any community work, and you and they claim they are not a BNP front, so where's the connection?



> 2) not saying there were not .. it is that PR article imho is swinging from saying they were all active nazis to saying that most were just kids ( which is what i think )



well, you're wrong.  at least you were in relation to saturday.  yup, they picked up some kids for a while, but the organised edlers were an organised bunch of straightforward cunts.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Durruti

I would repeat that the vast majority of antis on Saturday were not "UAF Brigade". They were ordinary Mancunians, sure many were from a broad range of community groups, trade unions, political parties etc. But most were there as human beings and Mancunians.

Just because the EDL, Media and UAF critics on the left say it was a UAF demo, doesn't mean it was. It was a people demo.

The idea that the average citizen might somehow sympathise with the EDL from events like Saturday may suit a news narrative whereby hate and aggro sells. It may suits a smug phoney liberal agenda of "a plauge on both their houses" and the weird idea that the (very flawed) UAF are "as bad" as the EDL. These memes do not neccessarily have a basis in truth just because they have a basis in some peoples heads.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> fopr a fucking simpleton maybe. the EDL dont do any community work, and you and they claim they are not a BNP front, so where's the connection?



The BNP do do community work and regardless of the detail of BNP/EDL links it is a very fair bet that the EDL muppets will vote BNP.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 12, 2009)

Why the fuck is Durrutti still playing apologist for these knuckleheads?

They remain a minor concern and bunch of knuckleheads worthy of contempt.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Why the fuck is Durrutti still playing apologist for these knuckleheads?
> 
> They remain a minor concern and bunch of knuckleheads worthy of contempt.


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Why the fuck is Durrutti still playing apologist for these knuckleheads?


I think Durrti should have the courage of his convictions and get in there and campaign among them seeing as he seems to think they're some kind of working class vanguard and 'the left' is irredeemably middle class and 'liberal'


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

durrati

What should people in Leeds do when the EDL come? Attend in some way or allow EDL to dominate the streets intimidating people?

Slag off Saturdays anti efforts all you like - the resulting propaganda and beaten up asians would have been a damn sight worse without so many ordinary Mancunians out in opposition.


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## tarannau (Oct 12, 2009)

He's a fucking obsessed, clueless idiot who contributes fuck all of merit. Honestly, he's making an alarmist molehill out of very little. It's almost wishful thinking and there's an unhealthy, obsessional focus on islam that makes me worry about the small noggin'd fool.

And I say that as someone who spent much of his childhood avoiding and then battling NF members in Tyndall's old manor.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I think Durrti should have the courage of his convictions and get in there and campaign among them seeing as he seems to think they're some kind of working class vanguard and 'the left' is irredeemably middle class and 'liberal'



I don't know what his take on the middle class and the left is, but I trust all leftists who are quick to denounce the middle class are conscience of the backgrounds of Mssrs Marx and Engels.


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> I think Durrti should have the courage of his convictions and get in there and campaign among them seeing as he seems to think they're some kind of working class vanguard and 'the left' is irredeemably middle class and 'liberal'


 lol  are you tarannau in disguise??


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> lol  are you tarannau in disguise??


you can lol and grin all you like but it's clear you're avoiding the logic of your own beliefs


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> durrati
> 
> What should people in Leeds do when the EDL come? Attend in some way or allow EDL to dominate the streets intimidating people?
> 
> Slag off Saturdays anti efforts all you like - the resulting propaganda and beaten up asians would have been a damn sight worse without so many ordinary Mancunians out in opposition.



i disagree that would have happenned .. if they would have wanted to they could have done that 

leeds? i would offer to help defend any muslim area that might be up for targeting but beyond that it is pretty much a lost cause .. 

and without a row the would be no fun in it for the kids and i suspect it would fade away, but still leaving grievances undealt with ..

 if you want a peaceful demo have it but be clear you oppose all reaction and all fascism .. 

but then i happen to think every time UAF/SWP types are on the news it alienates another few hundred thousend people from progressive ideas 

as i said to ne all this illustartes is how fucked the left are and how totally alienated they are from w/c kids


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> you can lol and grin all you like but it's clear you're avoiding the logic of your own beliefs


 where do i suggest, imply or whatever, they are in any way a vanguard ?  but you ARE correct on one thing, i think we should campaign amongst them, and i do (and live and work), them, black people, muslims, asians, whoever .. and you, what was it you do again?


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 12, 2009)

As I said, anything and everything durruti's 'the-mythic-left' are involved in shows how alienated they are from durruti ...


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Thanks for the reply Durrati, I agree with most of it with some important exceptions.

"UAF/SWP types" are on the news because they suit the MSM agenda, not because they represent the broad mass of everyday people out to oppose the EDL. I can not emphasise this enough.

2ndly I agree the left is fucked. The left no longer have the luxury of petty factionalist naval gazing, but I'm sure they will carry on with it.

But you have again overlooked the worst offenders in this regard - the Labour Party. It is their betrayal of the working class that has created the vacuum for the fascist. The numbers of those to the left of Labour were always going to be sketchy in terms of filling that vacuum and too many leftists were clinging on to Labour to see the dangers.

The EDL shame this country and our culture, they are no "defence" of it. And they are a product of 12 years of Labour government far more than of the obvious ditherings of the broader left.


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but then i happen to think every time UAF/SWP types are on the news it alienates another few hundred thousend people from progressive ideas



nonsense.  they have nothing like so much influence.  you do seem to think working-class people are exceptionally gullible


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> i disagree that would have happenned .. if they would have wanted to they could have done that


and yet belboid says that those EDlers that weren't hemmed in were chanting racist slogans and abusing non-white shoppers. Or are you saying he's lying?


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> where do i suggest, imply or whatever, they are in any way a vanguard ?  but yuo ARE correct on one thing, i think we should campaign amongst them, and i do, them, black people, muslims, asians, whoever .. and you, what was it you do again?


you suggest that there is a groundswell of patriotic opinion among the w/c, so anyone who intentionally demonstrates that is de facto in the van of that opinion


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Some more points Durrati

You are wrong if you think things wouldnt have been worse without the antis on Saturday. There was violence against asians in town. The wankers ran through Chinatown intimidating and attacking people as it is.

In terms of "defending muslim areas" - the 2 obvious places in Manchester (I cant speak for leeds) would be Longsight and Levenshulme. Frankly, these areas are more than capable of looking after themselves in such an instance although it is possible that the EDL could aim to repeat Oldham style provocation if they got more bold.

I'm not sure it will get that far.


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Thanks for the reply Durrati, I agree with most of it with some important exceptions.
> 
> "UAF/SWP types" are on the news because they suit the MSM agenda, not because they represent the broad mass of everyday people out to oppose the EDL. I can not emphasise this enough.
> 
> ...



fair play but i take it that Labour are 'bad' as writ


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> nonsense.  they have nothing like so much influence.  you do seem to think working-class people are exceptionally gullible


 no not gullible at all .. imho most people just don't like who they see as wasters .. and that means 'students',  and 'lefties' and 'scrufs' MORE so than 'hoolies' and 'chavs'


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

i think that's just you imposing your prejudices upon them, but hey ho


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> you suggest that there is a groundswell of patriotic opinion among the w/c, so anyone who intentionally demonstrates that is de facto in the van of that opinion


 ok but 'van' is traditionally used in a left wing sense .. so vanguard re 'patriotism' .. yes they are then 'a vanguard' 

.. so do i  support it??  whaddja reckon spy??? do i?? don't i?? do i?  

( uknow i kinda like your old school intransegence sometimes!  ) 


  of course i fucking don't you dork!! 

.. but it means shouting NAZI won't work .. and they should not be writ off


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> i think that's just you imposing your prejudices upon them, but hey ho


 no it isn't, hey ho   go and do a survey


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> and yet belboid says that those EDlers that weren't hemmed in were chanting racist slogans and abusing non-white shoppers. Or are you saying he's lying?


 no i do not doubt it, but there are no reports of anything serious


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> no i do not doubt it, but there are no reports of anything serious




Not serious if you weren't the victim. Less serious than would have been had the filth felt they had a free rein.


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Not serious if you weren't the victim. Less serious than would have been had the filth felt they had a free rein.


 they never got away from the coppers? really?


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## revlon (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Some more points Durrati
> 
> You are wrong if you think things wouldnt have been worse without the antis on Saturday. There was violence against asians in town. The wankers ran through Chinatown intimidating and attacking people as it is.
> 
> ...



surely you mean longsight and rusholme. I remember levenshulme as being traditionally a largely irish area.

Internet chest beating and fearless name calling isn't really resolving anything. If people think the best way to deal with edl is to shout nazi bnp off our streets, then by all means continue the practice. If it offers a sense of purpose and a chance to shine, and maybe add a few more names on the mailing list/membership forms, then all well and good. But the edl won't go away because of it. From what i witnessed on saturday they absolutely revelled in the seige mentality.

The edl with develop and grow not because their have a coherent politically astute message but because they are capturing a particular mood that people will feed into regardless of the name calling and dodgy political associations.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> they never got away from the coppers? really?



Not sure what your point is, but if it is that the coppers would have prevented racist attacks then I would say that I am far more confident in their ability and willingness to keep larg-ish groups in a cordon than their ability to stop small groups causing havoc.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 12, 2009)

A bit of light hearted racist abuse isn't serious, nothing to worry about eh durutti?

You patronise working class people and then down play racism. Then bore everyone to tears with hyping up the EDF and droning on and on about the far left. As if they could put off 100,000s of people from progressive working class politics you numb skull, no-one gives a fuck about them other than navel gazers like you.


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> A bit of light hearted racist abuse isn't serious, nothing to worry about eh durutti?
> 
> You patronise working class people and then down play racism. Then bore everyone to tears with hyping up the EDF and droning on and on about the far left. As if they could put off 100,000s of people from progressive working class politics you numb skull, no-one gives a fuck about them other than navel gazers like you.


 of course it si something to worry about .. but whatever .. anyway it bores you to tears so well bye bye then from this thread .. it is of no interest to you  i said bye!!! ok?   


( i'm having a great day! you, as well as tarannau and invisbleplanet have all gone on ignore   and, as i always say to spion, "so what is it you actually do politically" ??  )


----------



## Stoat Boy (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Good post Stoatboy.
> 
> "not least because we have a politically evolved 'culture' that is just not geared up to either understand it or lead it"
> 
> ...



But this is where I think things are going wrong. 

Our political culture, as a whole, promotes the idea of multiculturalism as a done deal. As a modern reality and people either accept that or move on. But those involved in this political culture are not the ones really living with the consequences of it beyond having a wider selection of restaurants and food stuffs to choose from when deciding what to eat. 

For me one of the most disturbing political myths we have in this country is that its always been 'multi-cultural' and that what has happened since the 50's has just been a continuation of that but the reality is that this country has never experienced the level of people arriving here from different cultures and backgrounds that is has in the last 50 or 60 years. Its been unique in our history. Perhaps you could argue that the arrival of the Hugenots (50,000 which given the size of the population of England at the time was quite a lot) was perhaps a similar experience but they were coming into a country largely sympathetic to their plight rather than them being bought in for solely economic reasons. 

Now by and large this change in the UK has gone relatively smoothly but I think that its now evolving into something that is beyond the realms of understanding by those who have come through our mainstream political culture who only view people in terms of their voting patterns.

On both sides of the political divide you have primarily people who have been 'professional' politicos since their late teens and who have only one interest which is getting into Westminster. It’s a career, not a vocation. And something that is viewed as crass as 'patriotism', especially with an English hue to it, is not what any bright young thing hoping to climb the greasy pole to SW1 wants to take on board.

But its still there. Yes it might be dulled and subdued and those who still believe in it seemingly happy to wallow in a modern day nightmare of reality TV shows, fast food and general apathy about anything else other than football and binge drinking but I think that this EDL mob have shown that people can be shaken into doing ‘something’, even if it is as ill defined as it seems. They have tapped into something that could, and I am even boring myself as stressing the ‘could’, bit turn into something that our political culture is not able to deal with. 

For me the only thing that the extremes of the Left and Right can agree on is an almost disgust at just how apathetic the average man on the Clapham Bendy Bus can be but the EDL do seem to show that they have what it takes to at least get some of them willing to make a stand. To just dismiss this as nothing more than football hooligans looking for a row ignores the fact that modern day football hooliganism has a greater deal of communication and organisation between the various factions within in it, allied with the reality that they also all share a scary amount of common ground on a whole range of issues than certainly the British far left do and also, to a lesser extent, the British far right.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 12, 2009)

If it is something to worry about then don't make flippant comments about it not being anything serious, as you wet your pants about a bunch of wanna be casuals you get all excited about.

I didn't say this thread was of no interest, I said you droning on was a bore.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Revlon - you are right, I did mean Longsight not Levenshulme. Quelle numptie. Could put Cheetham Hill in with those 2.

I agree with you about why EDL might grow - it is a public mood. It is built IMO on severe political and cultural ignorance as well as disempowerment. There is plenty of it about.


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> as i always say to spion, "so what is it you actually do politically"


Yep, it's what you always say when you don't have an argument. It's a transparent and tired old tactic.


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## where to (Oct 12, 2009)

so after Birmingham 10 x more turn out for a ruck in Manchester and people still think Birmingham worked?

Luton was a one-off, the Police are all over them.

move on and ignore or they will actually risk becoming relevant.


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## moon23 (Oct 12, 2009)

If the media only give attention to violent protests, then that's the type of protest that will occur. It's best to ignore them and they won't have anyone to fight with and won't end up attracting the headlines that they are using to grow the group.


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> Yep, it's what you always say when you don't have an argument. It's a transparent and tired old tactic.


 of course it is but hey you never did answer you old trot  ( p.s.  i suspect you once did do a lot unlike OSS/brassic and all his other alter-egos .. i just think you have lost touch to an extent .. praxis and all that  )


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## Vider (Oct 12, 2009)

just seen 'em on bbc london burning a nazi flag - their way of saying they are not nazis, apparently.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

moon23 said:


> If the media only give attention to violent protests, then that's the type of protest that will occur. It's best to ignore them and they won't have anyone to fight with and won't end up attracting the headlines that they are using to grow the group.



We should just get used to several hundred fascists parading through streetsm recrruiting, giving out propaganda lies, threatening people and carrying out racist attacks down backstreets? 

I don't know the answer  (from a short termist POV), but that certainly aint it.


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## Vider (Oct 12, 2009)

they remind me, is small ways, but still, of the Ulster para lot.


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## Fedayn (Oct 12, 2009)

Seems Newsnight tonight 10:30pm BBC2 is doing a feature on the EDL.


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## mike desantos (Oct 12, 2009)

Newsnight not Panorama


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## Orang Utan (Oct 12, 2009)

they're not nazis, no
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thetaker/4000064373/






sorry if this is a repost


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## sonny61 (Oct 12, 2009)

revlon said:


> seriously mate, watch the video. Head of the march kicks in at 1 minute.



Looking at that, I think it was a good job their was a high police presence, for the safety of the anti fascists.

Only a few months ago they were getting less than a hundred, sometimes less on their demos. 
Now in a short space of time they can put numbers such as that onto the streets.
Leeds and Nottingham next. 
If this trend in numbers carries on, there could be even more of them at Leeds and Nottingham.


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Orang Utan said:


> they're not nazis, no
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/thetaker/4000064373/
> 
> sorry if this is a repost


 are there never Stalinists on a  Defend the NHS march? or anti-semites on a Gaza demo?

 the issue is not that Nazis and BNP go on these things, they clearly do ( though we saw nazi skins walk away in disgust from the Brum EDL when they saw the  EDL banners ) and btw afair no one has ever said that .. 

.. the issue is what this, the EDL, represents politically and imho it does not represent a turn to fascism but an outpouring of frustration .. to fixate on a few Nazis i think means you are missing the big picture 

btw many of these who do this will think it is funny and a wind up


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> not represent a turn to fascism but an outpouring of frustration


the former is an example of the latter, isn't it?


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> the former is an example of the latter, isn't it?



yes .. an example of ( other examples are drinking fighting nihilism drug abuse travelling dropping out self and other abuse and anarchism  ) .. and this whole thing could easily turn into real fascism . and so we come to the age old age old of how to you stop people turning to fascism ... and you know what i think


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> yes .. an example of .. and this whole thing could easily turn into real fascism


gangs of streetfighters targetting ethnic minorities and left wingers with abuse and violence is fascism in my book


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> gangs of streetfighters targetting ethnic minorities and left wingers with abuse and violence is fascism in my book


 your doing what Orang Utan is doing .. your taking the anti-semite on the Gaza demo as the definition of Gaza solidarity .. the out and out racists do not imho define the EDL .. do you think we would be having this debate if it were?


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## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> the out and out racists do not imho define the EDL ..


What does define it then? I can only define it by its actions - groups of football hooligans (by definition violent or potentially so) who have on numerous occasions been seen/heard/caught on video chanting racist slogans and who on message boards talk of their violent intent towards 'pakis' and the left. If it quacks etc etc


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Hello everybody.

Well, what can i say, Congratulations to everybody who attended on Sat, there were over 2000 EDL members in the area around Piccadilly Gardens on the day, though only a few hundred were permitted to join in the protest.
This was by far better than any of us expected, and despite the numbers, was a  Peaceful Protest, in fact this was the only truthful remark I could find on the "hope not hate" website.
Please sign up to the 4Freedoms Website, and join the EDL group on there. http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/EDL

We have no doubt gained a lot of support from the public after the events on Saturday, despite the complete "Media Blackout" as far as the tabloids go.  They wanted a riot, 200 arrests etc.  They tried everything in their power to provoke a reaction which they did not get and for that we are all very proud of the conduct from EDL members and supporters who attended not only the protest, or the March to the buses, but lets not forget those who were not permitted to get involved in anyway.  See the video below. 

Thanks again, and i will be in touch soon. Regards, Trevor.


so whats this 4freedoms???  smells rightwing


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> What does define it then? I can only define it by its actions - groups of football hooligans (by definition violent or potentially so) who have on numerous occasions been seen/heard/caught on video chanting racist slogans and who on message boards talk of their violent intent towards 'pakis' and the left. If it quacks etc etc


 but there is as many who SAY ( honestly or not) they oppose this .. and that there are quite a few black and mixed race lads involved shows it is NOT that simple


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## revlon (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> What does define it then? I can only define it by its actions - groups of football hooligans (by definition violent or potentially so) who have on numerous occasions been seen/heard/caught on video chanting racist slogans and who on message boards talk of their violent intent towards 'pakis' and the left. If it quacks etc etc



oddly over at stormfront they have used the very same 'if it quacks' analogy to justify calling edl a "zog front".

It's a strange game we're playing isn't it?


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

4 Freedoms Worldwide .. follow the links  

http://4freedoms.ning.com/

http://www.libertiesalliance.org/

http://westhuhal.blogspot.com/2007/11/center-for-vigilant-freedom-fascist.html

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=The_Center_for_Vigilant_Freedom

he he  right wing loons


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

Durrati

I dont know what point you are trying to make but the comments under your last youtube link are full of vile right wing crap and doublethink. This is fascism in the raw, not some nuanced debate about aspects of reactionary Islam which provide a thin cover for hatred.


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## tbaldwin (Oct 12, 2009)

where to said:


> so after Birmingham 10 x more turn out for a ruck in Manchester and people still think Birmingham worked?
> 
> Luton was a one-off, the Police are all over them.
> 
> move on and ignore or they will actually risk becoming relevant.



Seems the UAF have been busily helping this group. I think you have to ask yourself why.....Potentially i suppose the edl could take support from the BNP and allow the uaf to recruit new activists but it could also lead to more support for the BNP when people see the anti nazis overeacting to a group who deny being nazis and racists.


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## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Durrati
> 
> I dont know what point you are trying to make but the comments under your last youtube link are full of vile right wing crap and doublethink. This is fascism in the raw, not some nuanced debate about aspects of reactionary Islam which provide a thin cover for hatred.


 shakes head .. that is not fascism .. that is the thinking of w/c people, you know the ones who provide the footsoldiers in the wars, who don't understand why their sons get abused, why they get accused iof being Nazis etc etc  if you don't get that you don't get any of this


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## Fedayn (Oct 12, 2009)

where to said:


> so after Birmingham 10 x more turn out for a ruck in Manchester and people still think Birmingham worked?
> 
> Luton was a one-off, the Police are all over them.
> 
> move on and ignore or they will actually risk becoming relevant.



Maybe not ignore but certainly don't help it get bigger.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 12, 2009)

What a whinging idiot durutti is. Anyone with half a brain cell can work out the the EDL is a bunch of racists using stuff about Islam as a transparent cover. You might get some numb nuts going along not realising, but that's more likely so they can have some fun for the day than any burning grievance.

The fact that durutti thinks this represents working class concerns shows all his prejudices. Someone said that 99% of people have a problem with Islamic fundamentalism and I agree. But in a list of daily concerns that wouldn't be one of them. And certainly not enough to join a bunch of fuckwits on a demo.

What kind of patronising tosser says vile right wing crap and doublethink is the thinking of the working class?

But still he gets it man, he knows the true light. Frustrated by not getting anywhere with whatever he has been trying politically year on year it's like a frightened rabbit in the headlights.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 12, 2009)

Also where are these quite a few black and mixed race lads? How many are there? Three, four? Look a the videos, there aren't any to be seen. Just because they can get some sad fucker who is black or mixed race to be duped by them doesn't mean a thing.


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## tbaldwin (Oct 12, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> The fact that durutti thinks this represents working class concerns shows all his prejudices. Someone said that 99% of people have a problem with Islamic fundamentalism and I agree. But in a list of daily concerns that wouldn't be one of them. And certainly not enough to join a bunch of fuckwits on a demo.
> 
> .


Are you the poster formerly known as brassic?
durruti i think would agree that lots of people have a problem with islamic fundamentalism but its hardly top of their concerns.
I think he would argue that it might be good for people on the left to acknowledge that ( as you have)
But there is an issue here of how the Left responds to a group of people who feel betrayed....An issue of how they respond to dubious patriotism and soft racism....


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> shakes head .. that is not fascism .. that is the thinking of w/c people, you know the ones who provide the footsoldiers in the wars, who don't understand why their sons get abused, why they get accused iof being Nazis etc etc  if you don't get that you don't get any of this



They rant about "hanging and drawing ragheads". You are being too generous to these filth. Of course soldiers shouldnt be abused in that way. They shouldnt be fighting resource wars in the first place. That point is clearly a little too nuanced for the hatemongers. Plenty of w/c people don't believe their shit.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 12, 2009)

I've never heard of anyone called brassic. What the are you and durutti on about.

Of course the working class feel betrayed. But the far left have fuck all to do with that as they are a total irrelevance and devoid of any contact with the working class. The Labour Party might have more to do with it.

And whatever the rights and wrongs with that there is no point anyone wetting their pants about a bunch of losers like the EDL who represent no-one but themselves.

Of course a political alternative is needed and that's why I've always been sympathetic to much of what the IWCA do. But that's another issue.


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## Stoat Boy (Oct 12, 2009)

revlon said:


> oddly over at stormfront they have used the very same 'if it quacks' analogy to justify calling edl a "zog front".
> 
> It's a strange game we're playing isn't it?



It does seem as though the EDL have many people confused. I would guess that the BNP must be watching these demos and shaking their heads because they have spent years trying to move away from the whole 'on the cobbles' political party bit and now the agenda is right back on them again without them seeming to have any control or real influence (I accept that there are definite cross-overs but my feeling is that they are riding the tail as opposed to directing the head) 

Just watched that video and it is rather chilling, especially as I understand (and am happy to be corrected by somebody who is confident of the facts as opposed to hyperbole) that there was a significant amount of EDL supporters not allowed to join up with that march.

Must have people in the UAF wondering. My perception is that they had thought of themselves having the upper hand in recent years in terms of winning the 'street fighting' battles but that little lot seem as though they would be well up for it and I doubt the UAF, for all the right reasons, would have significant numbers as a percentage of their protesters willing to stand up and fight.


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## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 12, 2009)

Stoat Boy you make a good point. Not only is there any example of a pro-working class alternative to the far right and right wing generally, there is also a real weakness if street battles do kick off.

The UAF is full of students and the like and they would get absolutely battered if they'd actually had to confront the EDL lot.


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## belboid (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> are there never Stalinists on a  Defend the NHS march?


yeah, cos thats really equivalent isnt it?  

prick


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## Diamond (Oct 12, 2009)

Don't know whether it's been mentioned yet already but there is an investigation into the EDL on newsnight tonight.


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## Davo1 (Oct 12, 2009)

Meanwhile at UAF HQ




> PROTEST AGAINST THE EDL IN MANCHESTER WAS “A VIBRANT CELEBRATION OF MULTICULTURAL MANCHESTER”
> 
> Thousands of local people gathered together in Piccadilly Gardens on Saturday to oppose the EDL’s “national mobilisation” in Manchester.
> 
> ...



YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Stoat Boy (Oct 12, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Stoat Boy you make a good point. Not only is there any example of a pro-working class alternative to the far right and right wing generally, there is also a real weakness if street battles do kick off.
> 
> The UAF is full of students and the like and they would get absolutely battered if they'd actually had to confront the EDL lot.



Which is why the UAF are so keen to get the 'Muslim/Asian' youth on the streets which strikes me as being very self defeating on two counts.

The first being that media images of the EDL being involved in rioting with Muslim youths merely adds to the flames. There was some awful footage from one of the earlier demos in which a large group of Asian lads just set about some white kid, who I understand was an innocent bystander, and although there seems to have been a media black out on the footage being shown (for probably the right reasons) it is available on many right wing websites and just adds fuel to things. 

And second that the UAF are allieing themselves with a group who are just as socially conservative, abliet in different ways, to the EDL and thus making the entire left seem even less credible than it is already along with reinforcing the perception that many working class people have of the left being anti-white.

The problem is that I cannot see any real solutions beyond just letting the whole EDL thing die out, which I think it will. It has no political ideology and no leadership capable of taking things above street level which means that its nothing more than steam being vented. For the moment.


----------



## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> but there is as many who SAY


leaving aside what they say, what does what they have done tell you? From the rampage in Luton, through the muslim/paki chants to the sieg heiling.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Davo1 said:


> Meanwhile at UAF HQ
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 brilliant!


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

Spion said:


> leaving aside what they say, what does what they have done tell you? From the rampage in Luton, through the muslim/paki chants to the sieg heiling.


 ever been to football?


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 12, 2009)

belboid said:


> yeah, cos thats really equivalent isnt it?
> 
> prick


 he he yuo really are not capable of not being abusive are you? 

anyway i made NO attempt at equivalence .. what i said was demos have differrent people on REGARDLESS of who calls them .. hence NHS marches have Tories and Tankies and gaza marches have jews and anti-semites ..


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Oct 12, 2009)

Ever been to football? Have you durutti you fucking muppet.

I don't see much sieg heiling on the terraces or chants about pakis. It does happen, but by a tiny minority of fuckwits who don't represent the average football fan, just like the EDL don't represent the working class.

Again in your desperation to be more working class than thou you actually just patronise the working class by putting on your own prejudices and defeatism. It's pathetic to you on your knees in front of the EDL. Everyone apart from you seems to know that the official statements of the EDL that they are against muslim fundamentalists is a thin cover for their racism. The difference with an anti-war demo or save the nhs demo is that is what they are actually about.

Every been to football? Don't make me laugh. Muppet. It's embarrassing.


----------



## Spion (Oct 12, 2009)

/\/\/\/\ Exactly. 

And FYI I've been to hundreds of matches, seen trouble at first hand, from the 70s to recent times.

What's your point exactly?


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> We should just get used to several hundred fascists parading through streetsm recrruiting, giving out propaganda lies, threatening people and carrying out racist attacks down backstreets?
> 
> I don't know the answer  (from a short termist POV), but that certainly aint it.



go patrol the backstreets if you want to do something then, but providing them with the opposition for a set piece like Saturday is feeding them purpose.

some people are starting a war they have not even begun to think through.  seriously use your imaginations and try and think where this could go.  its not pretty.


----------



## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> Hello everybody.
> 
> Well, what can i say, Congratulations to everybody who attended on Sat, there were over 2000 EDL members in the area around Piccadilly Gardens on the day, though only a few hundred were permitted to join in the protest.
> This was by far better than any of us expected, and despite the numbers, was a  Peaceful Protest, in fact this was the only truthful remark I could find on the "hope not hate" website.
> ...




this is alan lake's website, the edl bankroller, using it to pull in common anti-islamists. Weirdly he talks about linking up with football fans here - he actually says football fans got into contact with him. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOxaNcZ0now&feature=related
Around: 3.23 minutes


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 13, 2009)

One_Stop_Shop said:


> Ever been to football? Have you durutti you fucking muppet.
> 
> I don't see much sieg heiling on the terraces or chants about pakis. It does happen, but by a tiny minority of fuckwits who don't represent the average football fan, just like the EDL don't represent the working class.
> 
> ...



I agree 100%.  If durruti was being genuine he'd be getting his weight behind genuine muslim reformers and so on, not this bunch of seig heiling crypto fascists...


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> some people are starting a war they have not even begun to think through.  seriously use your imaginations and try and think where this could go.  its not pretty.


with this kind of steadfastness I'm sure we'll be fine


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2009)

There was a feature on the EDL on Newsnight last night (Monday 12th October) - should be available on the net to rewatch.

Interesting moment when the Newsnight interviewer asked the 'leader' - "EDL have been described as a drinking group with a facebook site" - to which the leader paused before the whole crew started laughing - making it seem that it had a lot of truth in it.

The gist of the Newsnight piece was that this lot are small fry, but there is danger that the scene is spreading to more and more towns, and that more sinister forces are beginning to get involved behind the scenes and may well pull strings down the line (<<<some evidence for this).


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> he he yuo really are not capable of not being abusive are you?



it's very easy.  unless i'm talking to a fascist apologist who thinks the working-class are idiots.  you're a joke.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> with this kind of steadfastness I'm sure we'll be fine



Btw, are you gonna explain how Birmingham was some great success in the light of the events in Manchester?? They've not been driven fropm the streets at all, they're bigger and if it comes to a street battle against todays UAF not in any danger of being beaten off the streets any time soon. You're like a wartime general busy telling people what to do from the safety of your armchair.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2009)

ska invita said:


> There was a feature on the EDL on Newsnight last night (Monday 12th October) - should be available on the net to rewatch.
> 
> Interesting moment when the Newsnight interviewer asked the 'leader' - "EDL have been described as a drinking group with a facebook site" - to which the leader paused before the whole crew started laughing - making it seem that it had a lot of truth in it.
> 
> The gist of the Newsnight piece was that this lot are small fry, but there is danger that the scene is spreading to more and more towns, and that more sinister forces are beginning to get involved behind the scenes and may well pull strings down the line (<<<some evidence for this).



pretty shallow feature, tho it did show that they are a pissy little group of noop marks only pricks would take seriously. The Home Office advisor chap was exceptionally dull, seemed to have taken all his info from a quick read of a couple of papers and webpages.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

belboid said:


> pretty shallow feature, tho it did show that *they are a pissy little group of noop marks only pricks would take seriously*.



What does that say about the SWP/UAF leadership and their co-thinkers  who are taking them very seriously?


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2009)

do they?  I dunno.  There's a difference between taking them seriously and turning up to oppose them.


----------



## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

upsidedownwalrus said:


> I agree 100%.  If durruti was being genuine he'd be getting his weight behind genuine muslim reformers and so on, not this bunch of seig heiling crypto fascists...



crypto fascists who burn swastikas and don't want anything to do with the bnp? The same bnp [genuine facsists] who don't want anything to do with the edl?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

belboid said:


> do they?  I dunno.  There's a difference between taking them seriously and turning up to oppose them.



believe me they take them seriously, a few mates up here have been to meetings they're involved in and they are taking this very seriously. 

Up here is a tad different though for obvious reasons, their 'consitutency' up here is and will be notably different imho.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 13, 2009)

the far right are always insulting each other, disavowing each other publically and calling each other jews, it isn't anything new.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> What does that say about the SWP/UAF leadership and their co-thinkers  who are taking them very seriously?



That maybe they, and not the Home Office, have got it right ? Or at least more right than thinking them a bunch of 'noop marks' ?

I very much doubt the EDL will be leading a revolution but its obvious that from a standing start they have organised and have got people onto the streets. 

In this day of political apathy that HAS to be something worth taking notice of. Now there does not need to be an over reaction and I can buy into a lot of the arguements about the UAF not really helping with their counter demos and so on but that still does not alter the fact that the EDL have come about and that they should be seen as consequence of social pressures felt within this county.

To just write that off seems to me to be just as bad as proclaiming them as the heirs to the Nazi party and predicting the next Crystal night.


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Btw, are you gonna explain how Birmingham was some great success in the light of the events in Manchester?? .


Why the fuck would I do that? 



Fedayn said:


> They've not been driven fropm the streets at all, they're bigger and if it comes to a street battle against todays UAF not in any danger of being beaten off the streets any time soon.


Driven from the streets one day, back with more the next and a different police response. Such is life. You just have to meet it as it happens.



Fedayn said:


> You're like a wartime general busy telling people what to do from the safety of your armchair.


Yeah, I'm really that influential


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Stoat Boy said:


> That maybe they, and not the Home Office, have got it right ? Or at least more right than thinking them a bunch of 'noop marks' ?
> 
> I very much doubt the EDL will be leading a revolution but its obvious that from a standing start they have organised and have got people onto the streets.
> 
> ...



Am busy in work at the mo but a quick reply, i'm not in favour of writing them off or ignoring them. But the victory provclaimed after Birmingham and by the UAF after Manchester shows how utterly removed from reality the UAF clearly is.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Why the fuck would I do that?
> 
> Driven from the streets one day, back with more the next and a different police response. Such is life. You just have to meet it as it happens.
> 
> Yeah, I'm really that influential



because you were crowing about it then but you seem a bit quiet after Manchester.... Not going how you claimed is it?!

And you also need to re-evaluate your tactics given the laughable tactics so far employed by UAF.... 

You're as influential as the WW1 generals busy telling people what was gonna happen only for the opposite to unfold while they're safely esconced out of the line of fire. And given where you live I expect you to be in the front line giving the troops the correct line when the EDL appear in Leeds.


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> with this kind of steadfastness I'm sure we'll be fine



they've got you hook line and sinker then.  they say jump you say how high.

as i say go and patrol the backstreets if you think that will help (maybe not a bad idea) but standing shouting at them between police doesn't achieve anything tangible.

do you not see that after a few weeks of standing in an empty field with "down with this sort of thing" placards that these guys will soon start to feel like prats and get bored?


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> because you were crowing about it then but you seem a bit quiet after Manchester.... Not going how you claimed is it?!.


I haven't claimed "it" is going any particular way. The job was well done in Brum. Manchester looked like a debacle



Fedayn said:


> And you also need to re-evaluate your tactics given the laughable tactics so far employed by UAF.... .


Err, I'm not in the UAF and I consider large chunks of what they do to be foolish. 

What tactics do you suggest then, general? Please spell them out so we're clear about them


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> do you not see that after a few weeks of standing in an empty field with "down with this sort of thing" placards that these guys will soon start to feel like prats and get bored?


Experience of the Luton rampage, and from the reports of eg Belboid in Mcr who saw groups of EDL abusing Asian passers-by outside the police kettle suggests that given the freedom to do as they please will strengthen them.

What I think is neither here nor there. If the EDL get a free rein to provoke, they will do, and the response of people from ethnic minoroties to that is not something you or I can control


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Experience of the Luton rampage, and from the reports of eg Belboid in Mcr who saw groups of EDL abusing Asian passers-by outside the police kettle suggests that given the freedom to do as they please will strengthen them.



and how would being in a kettle prevent that?  as i say, go and loiter in the backstreets if you want to be useful.  

and stop going on about the Luton rampage - the free reign they had in Luton isn't going to happen again now the Police are all over them.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> I haven't claimed "it" is going any particular way. The job was well done in Brum. Manchester looked like a debacle
> 
> Err, I'm not in the UAF and I consider large chunks of what they do to be foolish.
> 
> What tactics do you suggest then, general? Please spell them out so we're clear about them



You have been cheerleading the UAF from the safety of your armchair since the first Brum events, now you're holding your hands up in a pathetic not me guv stance.... 

The difference here is i'm not cheerleading anyone from afar and unlike the UAF i'm not suggesting we, yet again, patronise black and asian workers by leafletting 'black and asian' areas about the dangers of racism, patronising them just a little bit more. I mean not as if they know about racism is it?   It's working class areas of all backgrounds that need targetting and that need a response to the ideas of the EDL. Also stop the simplistic EDL = BNP bollocks and that they're naaaaaaaartzissss. let's be honest, if they were/are nazis then we're reallty in the shit because they'd wipe the floor with the UAF if it came to it.


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> and how would being in a kettle prevent that?  as i say, go and loiter in the backstreets if you want to be useful.
> 
> and stop going on about the Luton rampage - the free reign they had in Luton isn't going to happen again now the Police are all over them.


Your approach then is just leave them be, just let the police deal with them? You're happy with them chanting abuse at ethnic minorities in the streets of Uk cities?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> they've got you hook line and sinker then.  they say jump you say how high.
> 
> as i say go and patrol the backstreets if you think that will help (maybe not a bad idea) but standing shouting at them between police doesn't achieve anything tangible.
> 
> do you not see that after a few weeks of standing in an empty field with "down with this sort of thing" placards that these guys will soon start to feel like prats and get bored?



No, to be quite frank it's scary and will drive many muslims in precisely the opposite direction to what is needed.  These guys aren't in genuine favour of genuine reform of islam, they're blanket haters of everyone of non white extraction.  IMO.  We need to support people like the reformists mentioned in the thread in protest, whilst combatting the EDL types.  IMO.  I'm 'islamophobic' supposedly, but I would march against the EDL...


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> You have been cheerleading the UAF from the safety of your armchair since the first Brum events, now you're holding your hands up in a pathetic not me guv stance.... .


You're in some kind of fantasy land here. I've rarely mentioned the UAF. I do however, think that opposing a bunch of racists who want to chant foul things at ethnic minorities on the streets of UK cities is a good thing. In that much the UAF are right. In many other things they're wrong.



Fedayn said:


> The difference here is i'm not cheerleading anyone from afar and unlike the UAF i'm not suggesting we, yet again, patronise black and asian workers by leafletting 'black and asian' areas about the dangers of racism, patronising them just a little bit more. I mean not as if they know about racism is it?


 Spreading ideas, informing people of things that are happening is patronising? How odd. 



Fedayn said:


> It's working class areas of all backgrounds that need targetting and that need a response to the ideas of the EDL. .


that I agree with



Fedayn said:


> let's be honest, if they were/are nazis then we're reallty in the shit because they'd wipe the floor with the UAF if it came to it.


And if we were 'really in the shit' what would you be advocating? if there were racist streetfighters making their presence felt in UK city centres what would you be suggesting we do?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

revlon said:


> crypto fascists who burn swastikas and don't want anything to do with the bnp? The same bnp [genuine facsists] who don't want anything to do with the edl?


Maybe there are army NCOs at the head of the EDL. Just a hunch, but the way  some of them held themselves/stood reminded me very much of people who'd been exposed at length to military life.


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Your approach then is just leave them be, just let the police deal with them?



i am saying don't pretend standing in a kettle in a field opposite them shouting is offering tangible defence to people being abused in side streets. unless you think that the UAF could stop them if Police lost control (which they won't).  

leave the main body of them who are totally overwhelmed by Police interest yes.  if they'd been left to it on Saturday in that field they'd of been bored shitless and many wouldn't be back.  you're dealing with folk who're not into protesting but are there for the aggro.  take the aggro (and therefore media interest) away and they're left with an incoherent position and not much else.

as for those of them who avoid the kettle these are the ones worth focusing on - i'm happy to admit i was wrong earlier saying ignore the EDL altogether.



Spion said:


> You're happy with them chanting abuse at ethnic minorities in the streets of Uk cities?



don't be a twat.


----------



## Slugger_O'Toole (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Maybe there are army NCOs at the head of the EDL. Just a hunch, but the way  some of them held themselves/stood reminded me very much of people who'd been exposed at length to military life.


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> i am saying don't pretend standing in a kettle in a field opposite them shouting is offering tangible defence to people being abused in side streets. .


I haven't said this. You're mistaken if you think i have



where to said:


> leave the main body of them who are totally overwhelmed by Police interest yes.  if they'd been left to it on Saturday in that field they'd of been bored shitless and many wouldn't be back.  you're dealing with folk who're not into protesting but are there for the aggro.  take the aggro (and therefore media interest) away and they're left with an incoherent position and not much else.


I think they're probably only being held in the kettle in the first place because of the existence of the counter demo



where to said:


> as for those of them who avoid the kettle these are the ones we should who people should probably be focusing on - i'm happy to admit i was wrong earlier saying ignore the EDL altogether.


So, you're advocating physical action against groups of EDL who are not kettled in?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2009)

belboid said:


> pretty shallow feature... The Home Office advisor chap was exceptionally dull, seemed to have taken all his info from a quick read of a couple of papers and webpages.


The other thing of interest in the Newsnight feature was the response from the academic specialist who advises the goverment etc on how to respond to groups like this. When pressed by Paxman what the correct response to EDL was he fudged his answer repeatedly - the reason being there isn't a simple response. I forget the guys name but he has some pedigree on the subject -sure I've seen him a few times before talking (well) about BNP and other far-right groups.

The fact is EDL is difficult to respond against because of the 'nuances' of their position, make up, size and history - and that difficulty is also visible in the variety of responses on this thread.

I think if they do grow into a bigger animal the response will be more clear cut.


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

ska invita said:


> The other thing of interest in the Newsnight feature was the response from the academic specialist who advises the goverment etc on how to respond to groups like this. When pressed by Paxman what the correct response to EDL was he fudged his answer repeatedly - the reason being there isn't a simple response.


He eventually said, "It's a police matter" or words to that effect.

I thought he was a bit clueless


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> I haven't said this. You're mistaken if you think i have



to be honest you're making no sense here. i hate to do this but i said:



> as i say go and patrol the backstreets if you think that will help (maybe not a bad idea) but standing shouting at them between police doesn't achieve anything tangible.
> 
> do you not see that after a few weeks of standing in an empty field with "down with this sort of thing" placards that these guys will soon start to feel like prats and get bored?



to which you quoted only the second paragraph and replied 


> Experience of the Luton rampage, and from the reports of eg Belboid in Mcr who saw groups of EDL abusing Asian passers-by outside the police kettle suggests that given the freedom to do as they please will strengthen them.



you're either not listening or being totally disingenuous. 



Spion said:


> So, you're advocating physical action against groups of EDL who are not kettled in?



not for me to do, but there would at least be some rationale to monitoring events on the fringes of these events.


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

ska invita said:


> The fact is EDL is difficult to respond against because of the 'nuances' of their position, make up, size and history - and that difficulty is also visible in the variety of responses on this thread.



the truest thing that's been said on this thread.


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> to be honest you're making no sense here.


It's quite clear. a) I have never said that standing in a kettle shouting at the EDL will do anything to help passers by from being abused (tho the presence of the counter demo is making the police act and kettle some of the EDL in) b) I do not believe that leaving the EDL be will see them disappear (as evidenced by Luton and away from the kettle in M'cr)


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

ska invita said:


> The fact is EDL is difficult to respond against because of the 'nuances' of their position, make up, size and history - and that difficulty is also visible in the variety of responses on this thread.


I shouldn't let a bunch of confused bulletin board wibblers convince you that this is such a complex issue. There's a bunch of racists chanting abuse on the streets. Do you let them do that unmolested or make your opposition felt? Easy answer


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> I shouldn't let a bunch of confused bulletin board wibblers convince you that this is such a complex issue.



Who are these bulletin board 'wibblers' you're referring to?


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> 4 Freedoms Worldwide .. follow the links
> 
> http://4freedoms.ning.com/
> 
> ...



ok the link here is with this Lake character MC5 mentionned .. it is he who is behind this "4 freedoms" website  

http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2009/10/businessman-bankrolls-street-army.html


----------



## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ok the link here is with this Lake character MC5 mentionned .. it is he who is behind this "4 freedoms" website
> 
> http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2009/10/businessman-bankrolls-street-army.html







revlon said:


> this is alan lake's website, the edl bankroller, using it to pull in common anti-islamists. Weirdly he talks about linking up with football fans here - he actually says football fans got into contact with him.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOxaNcZ0now&feature=related
> Around: 3.23 minutes


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 13, 2009)

revlon said:


> this is alan lake's website, the edl bankroller, using it to pull in common anti-islamists. Weirdly he talks about linking up with football fans here - he actually says football fans got into contact with him.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOxaNcZ0now&feature=related
> Around: 3.23 minutes


 oops posted the above before i saw this


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 13, 2009)

upsidedownwalrus said:


> I agree 100%.  If durruti was being genuine he'd be getting his weight behind genuine muslim reformers and so on, not this bunch of seig heiling crypto fascists...


  ' .. putting my weight behind ..this bunch of seig heiling crypto fascists.. " muppet


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 13, 2009)

belboid said:


> it's very easy.  unless i'm talking to a fascist apologist who thinks the working-class are idiots.  you're a joke.


 i can guarantee i do more now to oppose fascism and have done many times more than you ever did bellboy


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> . Do you let them do that unmolested or make your opposition felt? Easy answer



How do you make your opposition felt tho? 

shouting nazi scum off our streets, holding a smash the bnp banner, inciting violence from others towards the EDL?

serious question, one i am having a dilemma with at the moment. I know that when it comes to glasgow i will not be standing near anyone who does any of the above.

i cannot understand some of the "victories" that have been claimed by some groups recently. victory? what victory.. numbers are growing and so is confidence.. there is no victory.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> You're in some kind of fantasy land here. I've rarely mentioned the UAF. I do however, think that opposing a bunch of racists who want to chant foul things at ethnic minorities on the streets of UK cities is a good thing. In that much the UAF are right. In many other things they're wrong.
> 
> Spreading ideas, informing people of things that are happening is patronising? How odd.
> 
> ...




1) No, you made it clear and cheerled the events ion Birmingham. The very events that have unleashed a far bigger EDL response than the UAF is able to cope with. You happily, safely esconced miles away, whooped it up but here you are wriggling away from your previous remarks. You cheerlead a response that has resulted in something that is now well out of UAF 'control' or frankly their ability. That the UAF is deluded enough to think Saturday was a great success shows them for the clueless fantasists they are. 

2) It is entirely patronising when it's yet again white middle class wevolutionaries trooping off to 'asian areas' to tell them about the dangers of racism. As if they didn't fucking know! And at the same time those same middle-class wadicals ignore the very areas where the racists are recruiting., it's laughable. As a lad I knew years ago said, when the ANL-yeah it was years ago-come to the estate he lived on that had a sizable asian population, it felt like they were opening a coffin lid and poking a corpse. Patronising and frankly pathetic. And yet here we are again with the same thing happening again with even worse results….

3) I would hope so. 

4) What do you think I would advocate? I have a similar position to 'where to'. I'll be pottering about up here when they have their demo in Glasgow.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

EDL are no raging success, UAF are no raging failure. 

It is easy for EDL to build becuase there are plenty of football "supporters" who will find this kind of thing exciting and attractive. I imagine it's quite a new thrill to march along singing "we want our country back" to an Italian tune behind a banner written in German script and extolling the virtues of a saint from Palestine. The league of the cultural illiteracy is a very large one in this country.

And that's my biggest problem with what I've seen and read over recent weeks: Not the fact that some fascists can organise or that the response from antis is difficult to get right. It is the fact that this country has so many nasty and stupid people in it.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn

What is your problem with white middle class people?

You seem a little fixated in your last post. 

It seems to me like vacuous bigotry, as all race and class prejudice tends to be.


----------



## Garcia Lorca (Oct 13, 2009)

Theres a couple of different dates being flung around for the Scottish demo.

On the council website the date for the proposed demo is the 14th of November but on the 4freedomsworldwide website its down as:

Scottish Defence League

November 7, 2009 all day – Glasgow Protest against terrorists on our streets. Organized by SDL | Type: rally
(when rangers have a home game)


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Fedayn
> 
> What is your problem with white middle class people?
> 
> ...



'Vacuous bigotry'? Oh do fuck off. You don't see anything patronising about middle-class white 'revolutionaries' occasionally turning up on estates with a large asian/black population and telling them about the evils of racism as the ANL did almost on cue? The very same estates that they rarely if ever leaflet or visit when it's not about racism? Nah, nothing patrionising about that at all is there...?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

They are very big on this "terrorism" thing aint they? Will they be organising a demo against the CIA which has been the worlds biggest sponsor of terrorism in the last 50 years?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> 'Vacuous bigotry'? Oh do fuck off. You don't see anything patronising about middle-class white 'revolutionaries' occasionally turning up on estates with a large asian/black population and telling them about the evils of racism as the ANL did almost on cue? The very same estates that they rarely if ever leaflet or visit when it's not about racism? Nah, nothing patrionising about that at all is there...?



"fuck off" is not an argument. I am as skeptical as anyone else about the strategy of UAF in these regards. The class and race of the people doing it is pretty irrelevant. Plenty of people who do it are neither white nor middle class, but that doesnt suit a certain simplistic narrative.


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> 1) No, you made it clear and cheerled the events ion Birmingham. The very events that have unleashed a far bigger EDL response than the UAF is able to cope with. You happily, safely esconced miles away, whooped it up but here you are wriggling away from your previous remarks.


I haven't 'wriggled away' from anything, you nutter. Please quote me if you want to discuss what I'm supposed to have said in the past instead of just making shit up to suit your personal axe grinding


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Plenty of people who do it are neither white nor middle class, but that doesnt suit a certain simplistic narrative.


Exactly. Look at the videos to see who was involved in Brum


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

"oh, look love - someone put a leaflet through the door about the BNP / EDL"

"hmmm....can you discern the socio-economic or ethnic background of who put it through?"

"no...didn't see them"

"ah...that's a shame, I'm unable to judge the leaflet merely on it's content, I need to know the skin colour and class of the person who put it through"


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> "fuck off" is not an argument. I am as skeptical as anyone else about the strategy of UAF in these regards. The class and race of the people doing it is pretty irrelevant. Plenty of people who do it are neither white nor middle class, but that doesnt suit a certain simplistic narrative.



Who said it was an argument? It was a simple retort to someoen clearly unable to see patronising when it is slapping them in the face. Obviously you see nothing patronising in what happened and how it manifested itself good for you. So, middle-class whites, turning up only when it's about race to tell black and asian workers about the evils of racism not patronising? As much as I disagree with Spion he was pretty clear that it's an issue that should be dealt with class wide not just lecturing black and asian workers. You seem oblivious to this.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Who said it was an argument? It was a simple retort to someoen clearly unable to see patronising when it is slapping them in the face.



It certainly can be patronising. I can see that thanks. What I dont see is how race or class is very relevant. 

"sorry mate, I'd like to talk about what to do about these fascists, but you're not asian. Can you find someone asian for me to talk to please?"

"Bugger. I'm really worried about the march on Saturday but I can tell from your accent that you might own your own home or work in a white collar job. This makes conversation impossible"


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fed and Spi -  afaict, you're both very similar in political make-up and both working-class, so give it a rest and please work together.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> I haven't 'wriggled away' from anything, you nutter. Please quote me if you want to discuss what I'm supposed to have said in the past instead of just making shit up to suit your personal axe grinding



You applauded the UAF whipping up the asian youth in brum. You applauded what took place there. And yet you haven't the honesty to accept that what happened there has caused a much bigger reaction within those 'sympathetic' to the EDL and it's now much bigger than the UAF can control. I bet the UAF were glad that plod had the EDL overhwlemingly corralled on Saturday otherwise they'de be looking at a very different series of events. 
As butchers made clar those who have whipped this up, had no ideas or view as to what would happen. Simply playing at Lewisham re-enactment games was what was important. Whipping people up to get onto the streets but having no concern for what will happen is not great politics but a fucking idiotic game that could spiral out of control.

Btw, there's a clip of the EDL demo passing the printwirks in manchester, they were being applauded by locals. How precisely do you propose tyour tactics will cut across this development?


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> So, middle-class whites, turning up only when it's about race to tell black and asian workers about the evils of racism not patronising?


Where did this happen? Tell us exactly what you know about when this happened and where, and who was involved. Because it's sounding like you're just making stuff up to me.

I mean, one of the biggest whinges following the Birmingham events was that the Imam of the Central mosque mobilised people, and he may be middle class but he's hardly unconnected with or 'patronising' anyone.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

The slag off of the "white middle classes" is common on left and right. Daily Mail reactionaries often use it to mean "too liberal for me". Leftist-by-numbers can use it mean "people who aint as pure as me".

It's bollocks. A complete diversion.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It certainly can be patronising. I can see that thanks. What I dont see is how race or class is very relevant.
> 
> "sorry mate, I'd like to talk about what to do about these fascists, but you're not asian. Can you find someone asian for me to talk to please?"
> 
> "Bugger. I'm really worried about the march on Saturday but I can tell from your accent that you might own your own home or work in a white collar job. This makes conversation impossible"



<-------------------------------------------------------------The point
Taffboy--------------------------------------------------------------->


Shall I write this with accompanying drawings so you get it? 

Simply turning up in estates/schemes with a large asian/black population to leaflet, ONLY, when it's a race issue and never when it's about services, jobs etc etc is fucking patronising yes. Ooooh, the racists are mobilising, I know lets wander down to the 'black/asian' areas to tell them about the evils of race, even though we pretty much ignore their estates when it's not about race. That's not patronising no? 
Race and class come into it when it's done the way I said above, oooh look we'll patronise black and asian workers about teh evils of racism.... nah, not patronising at all. The annual lift the lid on racism leaflet.....


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Where did this happen? Tell us exactly what you know about when this happened and where, and who was involved. Because it's sounding like you're just making stuff up to me.
> 
> I mean, one of the biggest whinges following the Birmingham events was that the Imam of the Central mosque mobilised people, and he may be middle class but he's hardly unconnected with or 'patronising' anyone.



It's happening up here already with regard to an area called Pollokshields. Sizable asian population, ignored by many when it's not about race and all of a sudden there's talk of doing stalls/paper sales there regarding the SDL proposed demo. Happened regularly in Coventry too, including by groups I was a member of so some self criticism here too. 

The issue surely is not that discussing the issue with workers in these areas is bad, but only doing it when it's about race/racism is fucking patronising. garcia larca could give you similar stories I would think.


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> You applauded the UAF whipping up the asian youth in brum. You applauded what took place there. And yet you haven't the honesty to accept that what happened there has caused a much bigger reaction within those 'sympathetic' to the EDL and it's now much bigger than the UAF can control. I bet the UAF were glad that plod had the EDL overhwlemingly corralled on Saturday otherwise they'de be looking at a very different series of events.
> As butchers made clar those who have whipped this up, had no ideas or view as to what would happen. Simply playing at Lewisham re-enactment games was what was important. Whipping people up to get onto the streets but having no concern for what will happen is not great politics but a fucking idiotic game that could spiral out of control.


Oh, give over. The UAF were not even officially involved in Brum. There was involvement also by MAB, Respect (AFAIK) and the leader of the biggest mosque in the city.

And I'd like proof of what happened in Brum was the cause of anything. The EDL was always likely to grow anyway whatever the left or muslim/asian orgs did. 



Fedayn said:


> Btw, there's a clip of the EDL demo passing the printwirks in manchester, they were being applauded by locals. How precisely do you propose tyour tactics will cut across this development?


What do you mean, 'cut across'? 

If I was standing next to these applauding locals I'd say the EDL were a load of deluded troublemaking racist twats. Same as I'd say if I were anywhere


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> <-------------------------------------------------------------The point
> Taffboy--------------------------------------------------------------->
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Simply turning up in estates/schemes with a large asian/black population to leaflet, ONLY, when it's a race issue and never when it's about services, jobs etc etc is fucking patronising yes. Ooooh, the racists are mobilising, I know lets wander down to the 'black/asian' areas to tell them about the evils of race, even though we pretty much ignore their estates when it's not about race. That's not patronising no?
> Race and class come into it when it's done the way I said above, oooh look we'll patronise black and asian workers about teh evils of racism.... nah, not patronising at all. The annual lift the lid on racism leaflet.....


Well, yeah, you've got a point. To an extent. But that's also the way of things. Issues arise and socialists would be fools not to try and draw people to immediate events but also to wider socialist answers. I mean, when the power station strikes took place your union passed resolutions of support. Someone arguing your logic now would call you patronising, you only swoooped down on them when they were on strike, where were you before that, you come in with your letter of support then you disappear etc etc. It's bollocks of course because you generally only start to make contacts when particular events stir things up


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Oh, give over. The UAF were not even officially involved in Brum. There was involvement also by MAB, Respect (AFAIK) and the leader of the biggest mosque in the city.
> 
> And I'd like proof of what happened in Brum was the cause of anything. The EDL was always likely to grow anyway whatever the left or muslim/asian orgs did.
> 
> ...



Read what they said about brum, they were afamant it wasn't going to happen again so they wanted the numbers to ensure it didn't. The UAF were more than involved, they declared it a victory, they had the [pressers saying it was a victory. We'll never know if it was gonna grow to the extent it did in manchester. How dio you explain such an exponential rise in numbers? Did what happened in brum have no input to such a massive rise? How do you explain such a huge rise? 

'Cut across', ie discussing with those applauding the demo? Just saying their racist when to those watching there's placards saying black and white unite as there was on Saturday being waved by EDL marchers? Do you trecjkon that will wash with people or are different tactics needed?


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd;9817649][QUOTE=Fedayn said:


> <-------------------------------------------------------------The point
> Taffboy--------------------------------------------------------------->
> 
> 
> ...



Fuck me you're an idiot.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fed:

How dio you explain such an exponential rise in numbers?

No one can tell for sure. I expect counter aggro can help a bit. But to repeat from earlier: Fucked if we do, fucked if we dont.

What grows them more IMo is a large potential base among football "supporters".

After an EDL event an attendee will get his mates to tag along "it's great" they'll say. And I'm sure there is an adrenalin buzz to parading through town chanting and stuff that they dont get out of a regular footie game. I daresay they feel relatively empowered by the experience.

This would be the case with or without opposition.

That's how I explain most of the growth.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn;9817673][QUOTE=taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Fuck me you're an idiot.



I'm not the one who thinks ones credibility in activism is affected by race, class or address.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Well, yeah, you've got a point. To an extent. But that's also the way of things. Issues arise and socialists would be fools not to try and draw people to immediate events but also to wider socialist answers. I mean, when the power station strikes took place your union passed resolutions of support. Someone arguing your logic now would call you patronising, you only swoooped down on them when they were on strike, where were you before that, you come in with your letter of support then you disappear etc etc. It's bollocks of course because you generally only start to make contacts when particular events stir things up



Thankl fuck for that, I hoped you'd at least get what I was driving at. There's no comparison between the vestas strike/lyndsey and what we're discussing.  you can't suppotr a atrike of there's not one taking place. You can't offer support to workers if there's no issue to immediately offer support on. Many yuears ago regualr paper sales took place outside factories precisely to stop the patronising references. Theyu don't happen so much these days so yeah to an extent there is a certain 'swooping' in on them. There is i'm sure you'll agree a bit of a difference, with what we're discussing there though.
The areas i'm referring to are pretty much ignored when it's not about race but then all of a sudden it's get down there and tell them about racism..... As I said, the old MT were guilty of it aswell. The areas we're referring to should not be wheeled out when it's about race, they'er working class areas that have the same wants and needs as other areas.


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Read what they said about brum


 What who said?



Fedayn said:


> How dio you explain such an exponential rise in numbers? Did what happened in brum have no input to such a massive rise? How do you explain such a huge rise?


 Football season? (the last Brum one was on the day of a pre-season friendly, IIRC)



Fedayn said:


> 'Cut across', ie discussing with those applauding the demo? Just saying their racist when to those watching there's placards saying black and white unite as there was on Saturday being waved by EDL marchers? Do you trecjkon that will wash with people or are different tactics needed?


Well, it's the usual gamut or responses isn't it? From pointing out the lies and hypocrisy of the racists through to advocating a class response. I'm not going through all that at lenght. I think you know what I mean


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> You applauded the UAF whipping up the asian youth in brum. You applauded what took place there. And yet you haven't the honesty to accept that what happened there has caused a much bigger reaction within those 'sympathetic' to the EDL and it's now much bigger than the UAF can control. I bet the UAF were glad that plod had the EDL overhwlemingly corralled on Saturday otherwise they'de be looking at a very different series of events.


What you're saying doesn't make sense, since I know Spion is aware of the following, and was aware even before the Brum EDL demo.

. UAF weren't in Brum - made a public point out of not being there - due to criticism that their presence made things worse (I think).
UAF confirm they are not planning a counter demonstration tomorrow (Saturday 5 September): http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562

. Police advised council to cancel long-planned multicultural event which was supposed to be held on the day the EDL came to Brum.

. Brum Central Mosque leader openly encouraged asian youth to counter EDL. (The only mosque leader to have done so, everyone other mosque leader discouraged/discourages this type of response).  

AFAICR, it was mentioned after the event that SWP did have a presence there.


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> The areas i'm referring to are pretty much ignored when it's not about race but then all of a sudden it's get down there and tell them about racism..... As I said, the old MT were guilty of it aswell. The areas we're referring to should not be wheeled out when it's about race, they'er working class areas that have the same wants and needs as other areas.


Well, yeah, sure. NB tho, in painting your 'swoop and partonise' picutre you are completely ignoring the role of asian/muslim organisations for the brum events


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## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Oh, give over. The UAF were not even officially involved in Brum.


are you quite sure about this?



> Unite Against Fascism held a successful demonstration in Birmingham on Saturday against the "English Defence League", a group of racist football hooligans with links to the fascist British National Party that tried to hold an anti-Muslim rally in the city.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> What who said?
> 
> Football season? (the last Brum one was on the day of a pre-season friendly, IIRC)
> 
> Well, it's the usual gamut or responses isn't it? From pointing out the lies and hypocrisy of the racists through to advocating a class response. I'm not going through all that at lenght. I think you know what I mean



What the EDL said after Brum, ie look what happened, we need more numbers. 

Really? There's a football website I go on that the Casuals United fella also goes on. he was explicit, look what ahppened in brum, we, ie EDL, need bigger numbers. Absolutely clear that what happened in brum was a major catalyst for the numebrs in Manchester. 

I'd agree yeah simply calling them nazis, when they'wer holding palcards calling for black and whites unite doesn't make much sense does it? It also means going into those working class areas and discussing that, a tactic utterly ignored by UAF/SWP and their pals.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> UAF weren't in Brum - made a public point out of not being there - due to criticism that their presence made things worse (I think).
> UAF confirm they are not planning a counter demonstration tomorrow (Saturday 5 September): http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562
> 
> Police advised council to cancel long-planned multicultural event which was supposed to be held on the day the EDL came to Brum.
> ...




UAF were there, as revlon has shown in his post above they made a big claim about their counter-demo. They also were on TV Bennett and Smith being their mouthpieces about the days events.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> NB tho, in painting your 'swoop and partonise' picutre you are completely ignoring the role of asian/muslim organisations for the brum events



I think there's a rather notable difference here. I understand entirely why they did what they did. Doesn't mean the likes of Salma Yaqoob and the fella from Brum mosque were right in claiming they wwere BNP though.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

revlon said:


> are you quite sure about this?


>


> The below press release has been issued today by Unite Against Fascism:
> 
> West Midlands Unite Against Fascism today condemned the leadership of Birmingham City Council for refusing to ban a racist demo planned for Saturday, at the same time as vetoing a celebration of Birmingham's multi-cultural diversity.
> The rally is being organised by the racist English Defence League whose two previous visits to Birmingham ended in widespread violence and intimidation. Their conduct has already led to a ban being imposed on their rallies in Luton and many expected Birmingham City Council would call for the same action here. Instead, ignoring the thousands of people who had asked for the City to keep the peace and ban the racists, on Thursday it was announced that the only restriction placed on the English Defence League would be not being allowed to chant their Anti Muslim slogans in the Bull Ring.
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

From the UAF site:



> Instead they were outnumbered and roundly defeated. The spot they wanted to march in was occupied by hundreds of anti-fascists who had come to demonstrate their united opposition to racism and fascism. The UAF rally brought together Asian, black and white young people from the city alongside trade unionists and anti-racist campaigners. Chants included "Black and white, unite and fight" and "Nazi scum out of Brum".
> 
> The rally was addressed by speakers including: Weyman Bennett, joint secretary of Unite Against Fascism; Salma Yaqoob, Respect councillor for Birmingham Sparkbrook; Tony Conway from the national executive of the PCS union; Sam Margrave, former Labour councillor and anti-racist campaigner at Staffordshire University; John Hemingway, Birmingham secretary of the NASUWT teaching union; and Dave Hughes from Birmingham Trades Council.
> 
> The UAF counter demonstration acted as an important focal point for the anger that many people in Birmingham, especially those from the Muslim community, rightly felt about the fact that a gang of thugs was being allowed to hold a racist march in the city centre. Our rally was noisy but peaceful. The trouble that arose took place after it had ended and was sparked by a group of racists who broke off from the EDL demonstration and marched towards the anti-fascist rally to goad protesters.



Interesting though - at what point were the UAF lying, before the rally or after?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> UAF were there, as revlon has shown in his post above they made a big claim about their counter-demo. They also were on TV Bennett and Smith being their mouthpieces about the days events.



I'm talking about the Sept 5th EDL, which UAF were not involved in organising a counter-demo, which had 90+ arrests, which had EDL being bussed to Coventry.

Revlon's unsourced quote comes from UAF statement of 10 August 2009. www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=90808


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## Garcia Lorca (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> The issue surely is not that discussing the issue with workers in these areas is bad, but only doing it when it's about race/racism is fucking patronising. garcia larca could give you similar stories I would think.



as soon as the scottish demo was announced, the swp were out in victoria road (high asian population), glasgow, drumming up support for a counter demo. The edl, who are new to a lot of people, should not be explained as "BNPers and nazi scum", as they were. its not true and if they arent trying to whip up an army, i dont know what they are trying to achieve with this nonsense.


----------



## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> >



don't fuck about.

July 4th edl demo in birmingham was unopposed

As a reposne uaf organised a counter demo for the august 8th demo. It was this demo where the uaf great and good whipped the local asian youth up into who went on the rampage to "get the bnp". This is where it all kicked off and youtube footage was spread of gangs of asian lads attacking lone white males.

Police warned the uaf off attending the sept 5 demo so a rag bag of swp hacks traipsed around birmingham with a homemade banner and had a bit of a stand off with some football casuals while the local asian youth once again got stuck in.

Let's not re write history eh?



> The UAF counter demonstration acted as an important focal point for the anger that many people in Birmingham...
> 
> Unite Against Fascism was right to help organise opposition to the EDL and we will endeavour to do the same against any similar demonstration."




http://www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=90808


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> From the UAF site:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting though - at what point were the UAF lying, before the rally or after?


Neither. We're talking abpout two different Brum EDL demos.
The latter demo is the one I am talking about (Sept) -where the UAF did not organise a counter protest.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I'm talking about the Sept 5th EDL, which UAF were not involved in organising a counter-demo, which had 90+ arrests, which had EDL being bussed to Coventry.
> 
> Revlon's unsourced quote comes from UAF statement of 10 August 2009. www.uaf.org.uk/news.asp?choice=90808



UAF were there on 5th September aswell. They're on video ffs. They also talked about it up here as a big success and that is from the UAF. Martin Smith was on tv afterwards talking about it's success. Now given he was a UAF spokesman why would he talk about their success if they weren't there?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

Yes, as pointed out over a month ago when the same naive claims were made.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

I thought they were SWP. 

And I think there's no success to be claimed other than EDL stating they won't return to Brum because 'it's too violent', and SWP can't claim success when afaik it was Muslim lads who physically clashed with EDL.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> >



So not officially applying for a demo means UAF weren't there? That's bizarre, espcially given they are on youtube and their 'leaders' and press spokespeople are on youtube. They were clearly there, your sleight of hand that UAF didn't apply for an official demo doesn't mean a thing in reality.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I thought they were SWP.
> 
> And I think there's no success to be claimed other than EDL stating they won't return to Brum because 'it's too violent', and SWP can't claim success when afaik it was Muslim lads who physically clashed with EDL.



I suggest you habve a look at other youtuibe videos then which clearly show leading UAF activists on it.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, as pointed out over a month ago when the same naive claims were made.



butchersapron in yet another anti-SWP debarcle.

Does anyone here truly give a flying *beep* about your hatred of the SWP and other lefty groups you don't agree with? (apart from your fellow MATB travellers). If we're not careful, this thread will become eclipsed by your peoples hatred of the SWP. That's not the topic for discussion here. 

(I don't give a fuck about the SWP).


----------



## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> I suggest you habve a look at other youtuibe videos then which clearly show leading UAF activists on it.


i think they were their in a personal capacity


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> I suggest you habve a look at other youtuibe videos then which clearly show leading UAF activists on it.



I don't care! The UAF didn't organise a counter-demo that day (5 Sept). That some of their activists were there is neither here nor there, is it? Or are you one of those people who just wanted the Sept 5 EDL demo to become a straightforward clash between EDL and Muslims with no other visible anti-EDL'ers?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> butchersapron in yet another anti-SWP debarcle.
> 
> Does anyone here truly give a flying *beep* about your hatred of the SWP and other lefty groups you don't agree with? (apart from your fellow MATB travellers). If we're not careful, this thread will become eclipsed by your peoples hatred of the SWP. That's not the topic for discussion here.
> 
> (I don't give a fuck about the SWP).



I've seen some cyncially disingenuous arguments in my time but that one...well...


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> So not officially applying for a demo means UAF weren't there? That's bizarre, espcially given they are on youtube and their 'leaders' and press spokespeople are on youtube. They were clearly there, your sleight of hand that UAF didn't apply for an official demo doesn't mean a thing in reality.



How dare you make this personal. What sleight of hand is mine? I am reporting what West Midlands Police and UAF have said. I don't think this is an issue at all. I don't care for SWP politics much, but I have better things to do with my time than get dragged in to yet another SWP-bashing exercise. I notice the EDL are making a big thing of 'red' bashing too.


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## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

Oh, maybe that one just topped it.


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## Silver_Fox (Oct 13, 2009)

The confusion might be because the UAF didn't build for the Birmingham demo, indeed people like Salma Yaqoob told people to stay at home.

Because they UAF wouldn't support it, the SWP had to do it under their own banner. Granted though many of the leading activists in the SWP do also have a UAF hat.

However this all shows the total bankruptcy of UAF, although the SWP won't face up to this.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> I've seen some cyncially disingenuous arguments in my time but that one...well...



You're the master of cynically disingenous arguments, so I've no doubt you've created many of them, including the ones you're creating now. 

Just for the record - butchersapron & cohorts have never let any issue get in the way of a chance to 'SWP bash'. It's a well known fact on urban and you're all notorious for it.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I don't care! The UAF didn't organise a counter-demo that day (5 Sept). That some of their activists were there is neither here nor there, is it? Or are you one of those people who just wanted the Sept 5 EDL demo to become a straightforward clash between EDL and Muslims with no other visible anti-EDL'ers?



So they didn't organise the demo means as YOU claimed the weren't really there? Followed by some of their activists were there in the next breath? That's some gymnastics you're doing there, congratulations. You've more twists than a corkscrew.
I suggest you stop trying to think for me, especially when you're doing such complicated mental somersaults in your own answers.


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## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> ' .. putting my weight behind ..this bunch of seig heiling crypto fascists.. " muppet



They are though.  I do firmly believe that not all criticism of islam is racist, and have often argued it on here, however, this lot are not helping, claiming to be secularist critics and then indiscriminately attacking asians.

And you do basically seem to be supporting them


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> How dare you make this personal. What sleight of hand is mine? I am reporting what West Midlands Police and UAF have said. I don't think this is an issue at all. I don't care for SWP politics much, but I have better things to do with my time than get dragged in to yet another SWP-bashing exercise. I notice the EDL are making a big thing of 'red' bashing too.



Your sleight of hand is clear. Your claim was that because the UAF didn't organise the counter demo then they weren't there that day, pretty simple to see what you said. 

Oooooh and now equating people pointing out your attempted tricks as using the same tactics as the EDL. Nice try.....


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Below is what I said. Later, someone said that some of their activists were there. It remains that the UAF did not ORGANISE a counter demo. I think those are also prominent SWP members, but since I don't follow what SWP personalities are doing, it's neither here nor there when I reported, correctly, that the UAF (as an organisation) did not ORGANISE a counter-demo (as they did in Mancs). for Sept. 5th EDL march/demo.



invisibleplanet said:


> What you're saying doesn't make sense, since I know Spion is aware of the following, and was aware even before the Brum EDL demo.
> 
> . UAF weren't in Brum - made a public point out of not being there - due to criticism that their presence made things worse (I think).
> UAF confirm they are not planning a counter demonstration tomorrow (Saturday 5 September): http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562
> ...


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## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

upsidedownwalrus said:


> They are though.  I do firmly believe that not all criticism of islam is racist, and have often argued it on here, however, this lot are not helping, claiming to be secularist critics and then indiscriminately attacking asians.
> 
> And you do basically seem to be supporting them



but this is the problem - people from different races adopt islam as their religion and many asians support other religions beyond islam.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Your sleight of hand is clear. Your claim was that because the UAF didn't organise the counter demo then they weren't there that day, pretty simple to see what you said.
> 
> Oooooh and now equating people pointing out your attempted tricks as using the same tactics as the EDL. Nice try.....



I've made no tricks here. I just reported some links to West Midlands Police force that said UAF were not planning a counter-demo for 5th Sept in Brum. I am not in SWP or UAF, but I do resent many conversations here on British Muslims being turned/diverted to discuss SWP/UAF, time and time again. 

Anyway - I imagine the Leeds EDL demo on 31 October will be called off by EDL themselves very shortly.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Below is what I said. Later, someone said that some of their activists were there. It remains that the UAF did not ORGANISE a counter demo. I think those are also prominent SWP members, but since I don't follow what SWP personalities are doing, it's neither here nor there when I reported, correctly, that the UAF (as an organisation) did not ORGANISE a counter-demo (as they did in Mancs). for Sept. 5th EDL march/demo.



As i said, you claim that because UAF didn't organise the counter-demo then they weren't there. It has been pointed out to you, however, that they had a presence there, they had public spokespeople there and that they werem clearly visible on youtube, Indeed one of their leading TV people was clearly visible. It's a sleight of hand to claim what you are claiming. Nah he's got his SWP hat on today not his UAF hat.....


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I've made no tricks here. I just reported some links to West Midlands Police force that said UAF were not planning a counter-demo for 5th Sept in Brum.
> 
> Anyway - I imagine the Leeds EDL demo on 31 October will be called off by EDL themselves very shortly.



You claimed that the evidence that they weren't there is that they didn't organise the counter demo. That is evidence of nothing more than they didn't organise the demo. It is not evidence that they weren't there or had a presence there.

Why do you think the Leeds demo will be called off?

Glasgow City Council have publically claimed they have no powers to stop the demo up here. Interesting line given they've recently banned Republican marches on the grounds of 'public safety'.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> As i said, you claim that because UAF didn't organise the counter-demo then they weren't there. It has been pointed out to you, however, that they had a presence there, they had public spokespeople there and that they werem clearly visible on youtube, Indeed one of their leading TV people was clearly visible. It's a sleight of hand to claim what you are claiming. Nah he's got his SWP hat on today not his UAF hat.....



I really don't care if people have dual membership of SWP/UAF or of Conservative Party/UAF or of Labour Party/UAF etc. 
I was reporting the West Midlands Police statement which stated that UAF would not be organising a counter-demo (they didn't). 

It's really it's not an issue which hat a joint member of SWP/UAF were wearing on 5 SEpt, afaic. It's not my sleight of hand. I don't understand why you're wasting so much wordage on it.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I really don't care if people have dual membership of SWP/UAF or of Conservative Party/UAF or of Labour Party/UAF etc.
> I was reporting the West Midlands Police statement which stated that UAF would not be organising a counter-demo (they didn't).
> 
> It's really it's not an issue which hat a joint member of SWP/UAF were wearing on 5 SEpt, afaic. It's not my sleight of hand. I don't understand why you're wasting so much wordage on it.



Because you're clearly making out people were/are telling untruths about the UAF. You tried to 'prove' that by referring to them not organising a counter demo meant they weren't there. It's a non-sequitor frankly.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> You claimed that the evidence that they weren't there is that they didn't organise the counter demo. That is evidence of nothing more than they didn't organise the demo. It is not evidence that they weren't there or had a presence there.
> 
> Why do you think the Leeds demo will be called off?
> 
> Glasgow City Council have publically claimed they have no powers to stop the demo up here. Interesting line given they've recently banned Republican marches on the grounds of 'public safety'.


You're obviously the superior focus here. Let's keep talking about the SWP, yes. That will really be useful 

Why do I think the 31st October (that is the EDL Leeds date, yes?) demo will be called off by the EDL themselves? 
I'll tell you if you promise to stop talking about the SWP, the UAF, and any others who have got drawn in to counter-demo the EDL.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> You're obviously the superior focus here. Let's keep talking about the SWP, yes. That will really be useful
> 
> Why do I think the Leeds demo will be called off by the EDL themselves?
> I'll tell you if you promise to stop talking about the SWP, the UAF, and any others who have got drawn in to counter-demo the EDL.



In other words, ignore what's happening, ignore the bad tactics, ignore the groups who have helped get us here..... That'll work won't it?! 
You're like a 10 year old stamping your feet telling us all it's your ball and you're taking it home unless we do as you tell us..... Laughable....


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Because you're clearly making out people were/are telling untruths about the UAF. You tried to 'prove' that by referring to them not organising a counter demo meant they weren't there. It's a non-sequitor frankly.



I don't understand what you have to gain - it's obvious that we were talking about different dates - I even realise that later (but of course, an unsourced quote with no clear date took me a while to find when that had been written). 
I thought I made it clear I was talking about 5 Sept. (it was there on the link to be discovered). 

Do you really care more about fighting me about what the UAF did and didn't organise in Brum, than discussing the real matter in hand?


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> In other words, ignore what's happening, ignore the bad tactics, ignore the groups who have helped get us here..... That'll work won't it?!
> You're like a 10 year old stamping your feet telling us all it's your ball and you're taking it home unless we do as you tell us..... Laughable....



You really don't get it, do you. 
If you stop fighting me, it would be alot easier. Since when did I become your enemy?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

"What a shame some stuff was organised against EDL. If only no one had done anything, they could have marched down streets unopposed, intimidated people, attacked people and would surely have given up. That would have been no fun for them."

Who honestly believes this?

Quite a few people might, reading this thread.

EDL would recruit and grow to a certain point with or without opposition. People would show up against them with or without the UAF.

EDL supporters would wet themselves to see the amount of division and sniping around here: Smartarse nuance, namecalling and prolier than thou posturing. The left in this country is a dismal joke, too many are far more obsessed with point scoring against one another than dealing with the issues.

I'm going on an anti-bank demo later. I expect it will be not very well attended (but well supported by by-standers). Lots of people here would queue up to sneer. After all, it's only trying to raise awareness that some people oppose the biggest rip-off in history. Why aint we sitting on a messageboard slagging off the UAF instead?

Where is the left equivalent of any EDL style organising? It's true that we dont have the football "supporter" base to build from as much but the bigger problem is that everyone would be slagging one another off too much.

And the result is that fascists are filling the vacuum created by the crash in establishment credibility and Labours betrayal of their traditional base.

I try not to swear when posting but we really should be fucking ashamed of ourselves.


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> You really don't get it, do you.
> If you stop fighting me, it would be alot easier. Since when did I become your enemy?


Don't take it personally. Fedayn has had the handbag swinging and been looking for someone's hair to grab from the get go this morning.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

I expect the Leeds (31 October) demo to be called off shortly by the EDL themselves.


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Lots of people here would queue up to sneer.


There's your answer. Announcing a mass sneer would boost numbers immeasurably


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I don't understand what you have to gain - it's obvious that we were talking about different dates - I even realise that later (but of course, an unsourced quote with no clear date took me a while to find when that had been written).
> I thought I made it clear I was talking about 5 Sept. (it was there on the link to be discovered).
> 
> Do you really care more about fighting me about what the UAF did and didn't organise in Brum, than discussing the real matter in hand?



No, you care more about trying to paint myself and others as lieing about the UAF having a presence. That you provided 'evidence' that did nothing to rebut our claims seems not to bother you. 

Yes, and it has been mentioned that whilst the UAF didn't NOT organise the counter demo  on 5th September they were clearly there and had a presence there. But carry on with your piss poor evasions....


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> You really don't get it, do you.



From someone who has problems with comprehending reality that's deliciously ironic.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I'm going on an anti-bank demo later. I expect it will be not very well attended (but well supported by by-standers). Lots of people here would queue up to sneer. After all, it's only trying to raise awareness that some people oppose the biggest rip-off in history. Why aint we sitting on a messageboard slagging off the UAF instead?



Who's sneering? personally I wish you good luck with it I hope it goes well and gets some publicity.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

I have not accused you of lying, Fedayn. I don't understand what you have to gain by your continued focus on this. What does it matter who organised a counter-demo. People are free to organise counter-demos in this country.


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Yes, and it has been mentioned that whilst the UAF didn't NOT organise the counter demo  on 5th September they were clearly there and had a presence there.


Do you mean, people who are in the SWP and also the UAF were there that day (Sept 5) but that the UAF did not organise a counter demo?


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I have not accused you of lying, Fedayn. I don't understand what you have to gain by your continued focus on this. What does it matter who organised a counter-demo. People are free to organise counter-demos in this country.



Of course they are, who has said otherwise? Myself and others emntioend the UAF being at the brum 5th Sept event, you claimed they weren't there because they didn't organise the counter demo. Buthcers and myself simply pointed out that not organising a dounter demo doesn't mean they weren't there. You made it clear thaty we were wrong in our claims. To tell something untrue is a lie is it not? That's what you claimed we were doing.... Not too diofficult really....


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Do you mean, people who are in the SWP and also the UAF were there that day (Sept 5) but that the UAF did not organise a counter demo?



The UAF had a presence, including literature. That they didn't organise the counter-demo, something I never claimed they did, does not = not being there.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Do you mean, people who are in the SWP and also the UAF were there that day (Sept 5) but that the UAF did not organise a counter demo?



Man, are you trying to tell me the Marxist reds were opposing EDL? Damn those commies, damn their unpatriotic asses to hell.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Of course they are, who has said otherwise? Myself and others emntioend the UAF being at the brum 5th Sept event, you claimed they weren't there because they didn't organise the counter demo. Buthcers and myself simply pointed out that not organising a dounter demo doesn't mean they weren't there. You made it clear thaty we were wrong in our claims. To tell something untrue is a lie is it not? That's what you claimed we were doing.... Not too diofficult really....



When you write 'the UAF', I (and others) read that as being 'the UAF organisation', not 'UAF members'. You did not write 'UAF members', you wrote 'the UAF', which is why you got the response from me that you did. 

Frankly, I don't care if UAF members joined a counter-demo in Brum on 5th Sept that was not organised by the UAF. I don't care if they handed out leaflets about the organisation that they are a member of. It's really very petty to get worked up about UAF members being there. They have a right to counter-demo, just as much as any other individual. 

I do not understand what your focus re. EDL is at all. Perhaps you could explain. DO you support EDL?


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> When you write 'the UAF', I (and others) read that as being 'the UAF organisation', not 'UAF members'. You did not write 'UAF members', you wrote 'the UAF', which is why you got the response from me that you did.
> 
> Frankly, I don't care if UAF members joined a counter-demo in Brum on 5th Sept that was not organised by the UAF. I don't care if they handed out leaflets about the organisation that they are a member of. It's really very petty to get worked up about UAF members being there. I do not understand what your focus re. EDL is at all.



Yet more sophistry.....


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## Garcia Lorca (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I'll tell you if you promise to stop talking about the SWP, the UAF, and any others who have got drawn in to counter-demo the EDL.



Without trolling,

Its completely on subject to discuss the tactics used at the counter demo and the effectiveness of them. Everyone should always reflect on any actions and the effect of their actions, looking to improve them in the future. 

If groups were willing to listen as well as react, it would also help with a cohesive group to oppose the EDL, as NO one listens to each others veiws, this is not going to happen. Or if people are listening then they do not care..


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Yet more sophistry.....


Sorry, which bit of what IP wrote is untrue exactly?


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Garcia, I think that is what was happening. TBH, the EDL are going to get some opposition when they march into town and shout their random abuse at random Muslims. 

I think that I'm unhappy right now with the fightyness from Fedayn. 

Besides, I believe the EDL will call off their demo in Leeds for 31st October, and I think we should discuss that asap.


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## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

Only one person here going on about the SWP.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> Sorry, which bit of what IP wrote is untrue exactly?





invisibleplanet said:


> UAF confirm they are not planning a counter demonstration tomorrow (Saturday 5 September): http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/latest-news/press-release.asp?id=1562



IP claimed that because the UAF didn't organise the counter demo it meant that the UAF weren't there. That is simply not true.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Yes! It's all about the UAF!


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## Garcia Lorca (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Besides, I believe the EDL will call off their demo in Leeds for 31st October, and I think we should discuss that asap.



getting back on track then... 

do you know the reasons behind the call off in leeds?


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## Spion (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> IP claimed that because the UAF didn't organise the counter demo it meant that the UAF weren't there. That is simply not true.


UAF members were there on Sept 5. But the UAF as an organisation did not organise a counter demo that day. You've been banging  on about Asian youth 'patronisingly' mobilised by outsiders, when in fact the leader of the B'ham Central Mosque suggested they go and vent their feelings. This whole morning's nonsense has been you being dead wrong about the facts and grinding your axe relentlessly.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> UAF members were there on Sept 5. But the UAF as an organisation did not organise a counter demo that day. You've been banging  on about Asian youth 'patronisingly' mobilised by outsiders, when in fact the leader of the B'ham Central Mosque suggested they go and vent their feelings. This whole morning's nonsense has been you being dead wrong about the facts and grinding your axe relentlessly.



Dead wrong about what 'facts' exactly?


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Garcia, 

I believe the EDL will call off the Leeds demo and divert their focus to London because Choudary/ISLAM4UK (front group for Al Muhajaroon) are planning a 'spectacular procession that will take place on 31st October 2009'. These are the raison d'etre that we've been given for EDL, so I believe they won't pass up a chance to be there to oppose them in person, or will they?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> Who's sneering? personally I wish you good luck with it I hope it goes well and gets some publicity.



Thanks. I'm also working on a GreenLeft statement regarding EDL at the mo.

I hope everyone here can see past the inter-left squabbling. To be honest I've found this thread very constructive on the whole. I shouldnt have been as sarcastic to you about the "white middle class" thing. I do get your point, it just gets on my nerves that "WMC" is used to discredit points. The credibility of points and actions are what counts, not the race or class of the people partaking.

I have strong criticism of UAF too, but they are not the main offenders here. The main offenders are the EDL organisers who have us squabbling in a very unproductive manner.

Do you really believe that EDL would have given up without opposition?

I just dont buy it. Opposition strengthens them, lack of opposition would strengthen them. They are in a natural growth phase. They are clearly people who get a buzz from causing aggro. They can and will get that with or without the UAF.


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## revlon (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> UAF members were there on Sept 5. But the UAF as an organisation did not organise a counter demo that day. You've been banging  on about Asian youth 'patronisingly' mobilised by outsiders, when in fact the leader of the B'ham Central Mosque suggested they go and vent their feelings. This whole morning's nonsense has been you being dead wrong about the facts and grinding your axe relentlessly.



to be fair you're the one who was wrong and ip's getting the flak for it for sticking up for you.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I believe the EDL will call off the Leeds demo and divert their focus to London because Choudary/ISLAM4UK (front group for Al Muhajaroon) are planning a 'spectacular procession that will take place on 31st October 2009'. These are the raison d'etre that we've been given for EDL, so I believe they won't pass up a chance to be there to oppose them in person, or will they?



Interesting, if they did pass up the chance to confront 'Islamic militants' then they look simply anti-muslim. If they don't have the demo in Leeds will they lose momentum?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Garcia,
> 
> I believe the EDL will call off the Leeds demo and divert their focus to London because Choudary/ISLAM4UK (front group for Al Muhajaroon) are planning a 'spectacular procession that will take place on 31st October 2009'. These are the raison d'etre that we've been given for EDL, so I believe they won't pass up a chance to be there to oppose them in person, or will they?



We'll see. They will probably do both. Lots of people wouldnt bother their arse going from Leeds to London. Leeds is to big a potential base for recruitment for them to call off. That's my guess.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

revlon said:


> to be fair you're the one who was wrong and ip's getting the flak for it for sticking up for you.



Let's move on. The focus has changed, and we must keep up with current developments.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Thanks. I'm also working on a GreenLeft statement regarding EDL at the mo.
> 
> I hope everyone here can see past the inter-left squabbling. To be honest I've found this thread very constructive on the whole. I shouldnt have been as sarcastic to you about the "white middle class" thing. I do get your point, it just gets on my nerves that "WMC" is used to discredit points. The credibility of points and actions are what counts, not the race or class of the people partaking.
> 
> ...



No probs, I don't think it would have fizzled out in the way you're implying. However who remembers the UBA? They had the same 'raison d'etre' a few years ago and had a moer notable black presence amongst their members and yet what happened to them? I wasn't in favour of 'ignoring them' neither. There's a big difference of making sure things were done and behaving the way the UAF did. In all honesty none of us here has 'control' or any ability to control the mosques. That doesn't mean we can't criticise them or questuion what they did. My criticisms were and are of the tactics as have been employed. That's a legitimate view and frankly in the wake of manchester, which even Spion aceepts wasn't brilliant, then surely it's a vital question?


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## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

Choudry's thing won't happen if anything won't. They're not capable of 'spectaculars' and will have the OB down their necks more than the EDL. They're merely capable of playing the same game of racheting up racial tension as the EDL. The EDL strategy sems pretty clear and pretty succesful - large regional cities on weekends. Why would they change it? Esp given that they managed to turn things around since brum.  They've got their own momentum now and don't need choudry.


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## Garcia Lorca (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> . Lots of people wouldnt bother their arse going from Leeds to London.



I dont know about that, football casuals dont have a problem with travelling. 

I just dont see the gain in the EDL changing their focus to london imo, from the plans they have laid out it they are growing in numbers visiting the cities as planned. Changing this to oppose Choudary/ISLAM4UK would slow their growth down, it could also bring out some further racial hatred that they are trying *not very well* not to be associated with.

edit to add: hopefully we will have a nice wee radio debate in glasgow about it. trying to get a station to take it at the moment, hopefully getting a few different view points represented


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Fed

The UBA point is a good one. The big difference this time is the clever football branding IMO. EDL have made a breakthrough compared to that, but for all I know it could just be a case of a similar bunch of people succeeding 2nd time around as often happens in life.

I didnt see Manchester as all that much of a debacle. I accept that having been there could actually make me less qualified to judge, because distance can make one more objective.

If Manchester is repeated over comming months I think they will struggle to get beyond a certain point. what would make the difference would be to draw mass asian youth in. I think the Imams can keep a lid on that for a while at least (I must admit I thought it wrong for the police to do their mosque thing on Friday, I can see more sense in it now).

There is no way EDL could march through asian areas and get away with it.

In any case, they are provoking. If there is a reaction the press will show it as a "race war" and that will be a victory.
However, that isn't to say that the opposition are as much to blame. It is a narrative the press thirst for. Their agenda is dubious at the least and we shouldn't criticise anti-fascism just because the press twist things. We should criticise the press for that.


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## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

The UBA was football 'branded' from the get-go -if anything it had far more gen types at the centre of it rather than pathetic youtube wannabees.


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Maybe you're right, maybe they aren't bothered about opposing Choudary/Al Muhajaroon and other extremist Muslims (even though they said they were and Choudary/Al Muhajaroon were their raison d'etre for forming). Maybe EDL will go ahead with the Leeds demo as planned, and leave Choudary to march through London on his extremist roadshow spectacle. We'd know for sure if that happened, that they used Choudary as a cover for racism and Islamophobia.


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## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2009)

Or that new dynamics can spring up that involve different targets and different opportunities.


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## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Fed
> 
> The UBA point is a good one. The big difference this time is the clever football branding IMO. EDL have made a breakthrough compared to that, but for all I know it could just be a case of a similar bunch of people succeeding 2nd time around as often happens in life.
> 
> ...




UBA was also football oriented, a number of people from a football site I go on were both involved in 'organising' and attending their demos. They were aroung the Finsbury Park mosque iirc. They made it clear from the outset that they had not time for Griffin and Co. A huge banner at the front of their demo 'One nation many faiths' on it. Griffin and co hated them. Even from the outset they 'limited' their potential but they 'faded' as it became a chore. Yesh they were opposed and physically on occasions. I don't however rememebr the same 'furore' over them. I'm not saying their similar or the same, but it's surely not too outlandish to argue that the methods used against the EDL aren't working or helpful?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2009)

Buthcers and Fed

Sorry about my ignorance of UBA. Thanks for putting me right.

Anti EDL tactics may not be helpful. I still suspect they are better than none. It is new territory for us and I hope we can be constructive in finding our way through it.

I also hope we can start to build movements to galvanise people on the issues that matter a damn sight more than not liking a certain 2% of the population.

Any EDL success should make us seriously question what stops us mirroring in some way it for our own purposes


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

Fedayn said:


> I don't however rememebr the same 'furore' over them.



i suppose the UBA events didn't lead to a Luton type situation and were more disciplined.

or could it be the UAF organisers were just concentrating on other projects back then (around 2005-7)  that they felt were more important to them?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> i suppose the UBA events didn't lead to a Luton type situation and were more disciplined.
> 
> or could it be the UAF organisers were just concentrating on other projects back then (around 2005-7)  that they felt were more important to them?



Well they went to Finsbury park and Regent St mosques which were pretty well heavily policed so yeah the possuibilities that 'presented' a la Luton didn't arise. The StWC was also the SW main project at the time I think.....


----------



## where to (Oct 13, 2009)

i was thinking of Respect too


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2009)

where to said:


> i was thinking of Respect too



Aye good point.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> See the video below.




Propaganda piece, with comments adjudicated on by probably the propagandist themselves. Suspect, not much in the way of impartiality in choosing which to publish either?


----------



## treelover (Oct 13, 2009)

> Btw, there's a clip of the EDL demo passing the printwirks in manchester, they were being applauded by locals. How precisely do you propose tyour tactics will cut across this development?




I remember once marching to supprt a asylum seeker who had sown his lips together as a protest, we passed the local markets and the hatred towards us marchers was incredible, anyone who thinks this is a country at ease with the lastest phase of multi-culturalism, etc is deluded


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2009)

Spion said:


> /\/\/\/\ Exactly.
> 
> And FYI I've been to hundreds of matches, seen trouble at first hand, from the 70s to recent times.
> 
> What's your point exactly?



durruti02 in his 'prolier than though' mode.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 13, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> getting back on track then...
> 
> do you know the reasons behind the call off in leeds?



it hasn't been called off .. they are very excited about it .. they are definately , for now, saying "do not go to Buck House . come to Leeds"


----------



## treelover (Oct 13, 2009)

Re that video, did the UAF lot shout 'nazi scum' at the counter protester who was holding up a picture of his squaddie son, ffs....


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2009)

Garcia Lorca said:


> Without trolling,
> 
> Its completely on subject to discuss the tactics used at the counter demo and the effectiveness of them. Everyone should always reflect on any actions and the effect of their actions, looking to improve them in the future.



I would assume one of the tactics is for the anti-fascist opposition to this mixed bag of groups to be seen as multi-racial, multi-faith, to avoid being portrayed by far-right propagandists as supporting 'Muslims/Asians/"Paki's" against Christian/indigenous people'? The far-right are getting cocky now, with some anti-communist sentiments being heard on the latest demo.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

I'd prefer a group that's opposing another group that chants 'i hate pakis more than you'  to be called UAR (United Against Racism) and to drop the inappropriate 'nazi scum' chanting, maybe shout something more anti-racist.
Although that there are fascist scum in that group is undeniable. 

Dunno - tricky situation.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 13, 2009)

MC5 said:


> I would assume one of the tactics is for the anti-fascist opposition to this mixed bag of groups to be seen as multi-racial, multi-faith, to avoid being portrayed by far-right propagandists as supporting 'Muslims/Asians/"Paki's" against Christian/indigenous people'? The far-right are getting cocky now, with some anti-communist sentiments being heard on the latest demo.


 somthing which i do not belive UAF can do in the slightest ..


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

It's about time someone got these extremist commies UAF off the streets. 

They don't demo against Choudary but they protest against patriotic Brits and BNP by calling them fascists, so that must mean they're supporting Islamists and pro-Islamification of Britain.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> it hasn't been called off .. they are very excited about it .. they are definately , for now, saying "do not go to Buck House . come to Leeds"



Leeds NF had one of the strongest branches in the 70's. There was also the Wild Boar trial which exposed far-right links with the 'service crew', Leeds United's football firm. The NF had a regular paper sale down at Leeds United's ground every week in the late 70's. They got chased off when some militant anti-fascists (before AFA) ran them off their sale. Mounted police protected them that day, but they did come back.

NB: The BNP have a councillor in Morley on the outskirts of Leeds.

Tory/Lib/Green hold sway in the council.

Not sure if it will be cancelled, or not, but I know a large number of emails have been sent to the Leeds City Council authorities demanding a ban? The last anti-fascist protest in Leeds against the BPP brought out quite a number of anti's.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> It's about time someone got these extremist commies UAF off the streets.
> 
> They don't demo against Choudary but they protest against patriotic Brits and BNP by calling them fascists, so that must mean they're supporting Islamists and pro-Islamification of Britain.



Yep, that's the line their peddling.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> somthing which i do not belive UAF can do in the slightest ..



Manchester protest not an example of this tactic being used?


----------



## Silver_Fox (Oct 13, 2009)

> it hasn't been called off .. they are very excited about it ..



Maybe not as excited as you though.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 13, 2009)

Silver_Fox said:


> Maybe not as excited as you though.


 yes of course


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

> I turn my back for one minute or so the saying goes. Thursday I had the pleasant task of being the guest speaker of the Cornwall branch of the British National Party. We have plenty of capable people down there who are full up fit and mad for getting cracking and saving the country from the Marxists that ruin er run it, and the hoards who are descending upon it.
> 
> Unfortunately on the way back we were stuck on the A30 but it was worth it to see the beautiful scenery of Devon and Cornwall. The BNP in the South West, or deep south as I call it is slowly but surely taking shape into the fighting fit machine that will be ready to fight the next election.
> 
> ...



From Young BNP


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

Ulster Defense League - where have I heard that name before?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 13, 2009)

*Ulster Defence League*



> Just to remind everyone what happened to those that fought for Ulster against the IRA, many unnecessary lives were lost.
> 
> There is a mural in tigers bay that really sums it up for me atm with regards to the islamic extremist and the slippery road that we are heading towards should the governement and media continue to lie about the truth, prevent freedom of speech, prevent freedom of rightful protest, I seriously hope they have learned from the mistakes they made in Northern Ireland and we can avoid this from happening on the mainland.
> 
> ...


----------



## audiotech (Oct 13, 2009)

They don't tell the truth then.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The far-right are getting cocky now, with some anti-communist sentiments being heard on the latest demo.




at least the communists are doing something right


----------



## treelover (Oct 14, 2009)

> The far-right are getting cocky now, with some anti-communist sentiments being heard on the latest demo.




what a bizarre comment, the far right are more successful politically than the far left has ever been, for what i've read some of the young EDL hate the left because they see it defending, in their view, radical Islam,


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 14, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> at least the communists are doing something right


 winding this up? i think not .. the whole Islamist issue is irrelevent to creating change .. it is and always was a distraction .. and the 'communists' ( read wooly liberals) have fallen hook line and sinker for it


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Yep, that's the line their peddling.



I know. That's why I wrote it down for all to see.
It's a line the BNP have been peddling for some time.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> what a bizarre comment, the far right are more successful politically than the far left has ever been, for what i've read some of the young EDL hate the left because they see it defending, in their view, radical Islam,



As they no doubt would have hated the left for it's solidarity with wadical  trade unionist Jews before, during and after the BUF street-based terrorism years. What makes you think the EDL are so perfectly placed for success? The fash didn't succeed in the 30s - what makes you think they can succeed today?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> what a bizarre comment, *the far right are more successful politically than the far left has ever been,* for what i've read some of the young EDL hate the left because they see it defending, in their view, radical Islam,



What, ever?


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

Blagsta said:


> What, ever?



Treelover stands with the far right. He's bound to big up his own position.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

There's no need for those sort of smears.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Treelover stands with the far right. He's bound to big up his own position.



That's not true.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

What is he then? A disillusioned lefty who is moving towards the right?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> As they no doubt would have hated the left for it's solidarity with wadical  trade unionist Jews during the BUF terrorism years. What makes you think the EDL are so perfectly placed for success? The fash didn't succeed in the 30s - what makes you think they can succeed today?



It depends  on what you mean by 'succeeding' doesn't it? Or is it just 'black and white' ie winning power or not? The increasing racialisation of politics, race as a natural discourse in politics, 'fixing' of identity politics etc.... These are all 'defeats' for the left/working class.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Treelover stands with the far right. He's bound to big up his own position.



Nice smear.....


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

I read his criticisms of the far-left, specially re. Islam, and he sounds just like the far-right. He turns most discussions into little rants about the SWP etc that look just like the right-wingers arguments. 

If he ain't a righty, then he's doing a good impression of one.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

The usual response from you after you smear someone. Like you did with me earlier.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> I read his criticisms of the left, specially re. Islam, and he sounds just like the right.
> 
> If he ain't a righty, then he's doing a good impression of one.



Well if you're an impression of a 'lefty' i'm not surprised he doesn't want to sound like you frankly.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2009)

New EDL forum 

http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/uk


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> New EDL forum
> 
> http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/uk



Is that an entryist attempt by SIOE et al. to cream EDL membership from EDL forum?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Is that an entryist attempt by SIOE et al. to cream EDL membership from EDL forum?



SIOE are essentially one nutter and a dog.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> what a bizarre comment, the far right are more successful politically than the far left has ever been, for what i've read some of the young EDL hate the left because they see it defending, in their view, radical Islam,



What's bizarre about it, the NF and other groups would like to influence the EDL to be anti-communist/anti-left/anti-progressive. There are clips on YouTube of at least one nutter giving it the big 'commie scum' to anti's.

I note they're pretty silent on radical right nutjobs and their terrorism. I would have thought that a non-violent group, like the EDL claim to be, would be condemning all violence, but they're not. Some of the EDL supporters appear to revel in it.

The comments on this first video gives an insight into what a couple of bystanders think of the EDL. Wonder if that's a general feeling?

.

Others haven't a clue.


----------



## treelover (Oct 14, 2009)

> Treelover stands with the far right. He's bound to big up his own position.




pretty despicable comment that, then again you are an obsessive who just attacks those who don't share your vision of a no borders nirvana


----------



## Spion (Oct 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> pretty despicable comment that, then again you are an obsessive who just attacks those who don't share your vision of *a no borders nirvana*


We can see your obsession clear enough

I've no idea what's left wing about you either, tbh


----------



## treelover (Oct 14, 2009)

dinosaur, leave the stage


----------



## Spion (Oct 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> dinosaur, leave the stage


Who's the dinosaur? With your vision of a reformist socialism I'd say it's you who's had your day. AFAICT, you look back to a golden age of Labour/TUs, and it simply ain't coming back in that form.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

treelover said:


> pretty despicable comment that, then again you are an obsessive who just attacks those who don't share your vision of a no borders nirvana



I haven't mentioned borders since 2007/10. 

Before that, only 23 other times, and most of the time nothing to do with borders of a nation.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 14, 2009)

please can people ignore the troll IP .. has smeared in two days, fedayn, me and treelover (and butchers elsewhere?) and brilliantly decided EDL were to abandon Leeds demo in favour of London then within an hour switched back again!! ffs .. a troll trying to distract .. or just dumb .. but please please put on ignore .. unlike e.g. spion and mc5 who i am neither fans of, but have legitimate positions, IP shows no basis in, or history in, any sort of struggle and hence is irrelavent


----------



## audiotech (Oct 14, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> please can people ignore the troll IP .. has smeared in two days, fedayn, me and treelover (and butchers elsewhere?) and brilliantly decided EDL were to abandon Leeds demo in favour of London then within an hour switched back again!! ffs .. a troll trying to distract .. or just dumb .. but please please put on ignore .. unlike e.g. spion and mc5 who i am neither fans of, but have legitimate positions, IP shows no basis in, or history in, any sort of struggle and hence is irrelavent



Just back from the pub?


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 14, 2009)

MC5 said:


> Just back from the pub?


 i am getting wiberal in my old age


----------



## Davo1 (Oct 14, 2009)

Just got back from speaking to a friend about last Saturday in Manchester.

Apart from being told that edl numbers were bumped up heavily by 200 Man City fans (suprise! suprise!), apparently someone claiming to be EDL contacted the main UAF number and tried to arrange a FIGHT! in a local car park between UAF 'hooligans' and some from the EDL as if it was a 'firm' thing.

That is just fucked up! I really think people should think what they are getting into here. Its not politics at all. Bellends wanting a ruck. Thats it, period.

Starve them of oxygen. Nothing else will work.

Watch for that Weyman Bennett tho, or he'll fackin' cut you aaaaappppp!!!!!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2009)

Davo1 said:


> Just got back from speaking to a friend about last Saturday in Manchester.
> 
> Apart from being told that edl numbers were bumped up heavily by 200 Man City fans (suprise! suprise!), apparently someone claiming to be EDL contacted the main UAF number and tried to arrange a FIGHT! in a local car park between UAF 'hooligans' and some from the EDL as if it was a 'firm' thing.
> 
> ...



I know quite a few City lads who have ben involved for years and whilst I am not saying that no City supporters were there I haven't picked up anything from them regarding turning out for the EDL.  I haven't seen them since the demo but I will ask.Why do you say surprise surprise? btw.

The supposed phone call from EDL to UAF was also claimed by others to be ANTIFA to EDL.


----------



## Davo1 (Oct 14, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> I know quite a few City lads who have ben involved for years and whilst I am not saying that no City supporters were there I haven't picked up anything from them regarding turning out for the EDL.  I haven't seen them since the demo but I will ask.Why do you say surprise surprise? btw.
> 
> The supposed phone call from EDL to UAF was also claimed by others to be ANTIFA to EDL.



My grapevine is obviously rotten. Still shows that its all a load of old bollocks tho. I said city fans 'cause of the historic connections with the NF (don't know any city fans myself so shouldn't really comment), stupid really. 

apologies to city fans. This is all really odd tho. Uaf vs Edl in a car park ffs!!!!

My sectarian mind boggles....


----------



## Spion (Oct 14, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> please can people ignore the troll IP .. has smeared in two days, fedayn, me and treelover (and butchers elsewhere?) and brilliantly decided EDL were to abandon Leeds demo in favour of London then within an hour switched back again!! ffs


Oh, give over. Man up and deal with the things that IP says instead of trying to close down debate. And the speculation (which is all it ever really was) about the Choudhary thing in London is of genuine interest - if the EDL is true to its founding causes they'll be torn over what to do on the 31st


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

"man up" - welcome to TV world. You're a late 40 plus white twat, telling people who reject the approach of smearing opponents as racist to "man up"?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

"man up"


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

"man up" you little bitches


----------



## DeepStoat (Oct 14, 2009)

'Man up'?

What does that mean?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

It means someone gets their politics from TV.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

"man up" 

Fucking hell.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2009)




----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Treelover stands with the far right. He's bound to big up his own position.


that is rubbish.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

It is, and the sort of smear that's becoming too common, on here and in real life. These things cannot be let past.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 14, 2009)

Spion said:


> Oh, give over. Man up and deal with the things that IP says instead of trying to close down debate. And the speculation (which is all it ever really was) about the Choudhary thing in London is of genuine interest - if the EDL is true to its founding causes they'll be torn over what to do on the 31st



Well afaik, there is also Paul Ray's 'St. George' EDL division, which he runs, whereas Luton division are calling the shots with the EDL 'tour of Britain' itself, so some aspect of the EDL will likely be present in both London (Paul Ray) and Leeds (led by Luton EDL).


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> It is, and the sort of smear that's becoming too common, on here and in real life. These things cannot be let past.


i disagree with him on all sorts of things, but to simply resort to stereotypical labels as a means of discussion is pretty poor tbh. wouldn't know what happens on here meanwhile, too busy up trees this evening.....


----------



## Spion (Oct 14, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i disagree with him on all sorts of things, but to simply resort to stereotypical labels as a means of discussion is pretty poor tbh. wouldn't know what happens on here meanwhile, too busy up trees this evening.....


I wouldn't bother yourself too much. As a remark it's not that unusual for round here. Most of us have had worse than this levelled against them. It's worth asking yourself why this smear is so heinous compared to D02's suggestion that posters put IP on ignore, effectively campaigning for them to be silenced.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2009)

it isn't so heinous, it's just lazy.....


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

Spion said:


> I wouldn't bother yourself too much. As a remark it's not that unusual for round here. Most of us have had worse than this levelled against them. It's worth asking yourself why this smear is so heinous compared to D02's suggestion that posters put IP on ignore, effectively campaigning for them to be silenced.



If you're going to play at mendacity then smearing people as far-right is to call for them to be physically attacked.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2009)

and that's not far from the truth either tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

Spion said:


> I wouldn't bother yourself too much. As a remark it's not that unusual for round here. Most of us have had worse than this levelled against them. It's worth asking yourself why this smear is so heinous compared to D02's suggestion that posters put IP on ignore, effectively campaigning for them to be silenced.



Yes, actually it _is_ worth asking why this particular smear is so disgusting. Have a think about _why_ whilst you're manning up and other stuff.


----------



## Spion (Oct 14, 2009)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> it isn't so heinous, it's just lazy.....


It's not difficult to form that impression if you follow things on here, tho I don't think it's really the case


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2009)

Spion said:


> It's not difficult to form that impression if you follow things on here, tho I don't think it's really the case


 that makes very little sense if you read it more than once tbh. let's move on eh?


----------



## Spion (Oct 14, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, actually it _is_ worth asking why this particular smear is so disgusting.


I know. It's disgusting because someone said something howwid about your fwiend?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

Yes, that's what calling someone a sympathiser with racism and fascism is and that's why i'm against that sort of thing.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2009)

Spion said:


> I know. It's disgusting because someone said something howwid about your fwiend?



Is this (which would be embarassing for a 5 year old) an example of manning up btw?


----------



## Chester Copperpot (Oct 15, 2009)

Just found out SIOE are planning another demonstration outside the Harrow Mosque on 13th December if they can get 2000 confirmed attendees.


----------



## revlon (Oct 15, 2009)

Chester Copperpot said:


> Just found out SIOE are planning another demonstration outside the Harrow Mosque on 13th December if they can get 2000 confirmed attendees.



alan lake, who seems to be the edl stategist (least ways they seem to be following his methodology), i think will advise the edl not to put their name to this and to give it a wide berth. In Harrow they got absolutely slaughtered by the _local population_, nothing to gain apart from saving face, and even then they'd have to have a lot stronger presense.

Also what's not being discussed is though the edl are not a fascist group, the fascists within it, and the far right factions watching enviously from the sidelines, have seen what can be done and how, are obviously thinking about their abilities to replicate it from a white nationalist perspective. It'd be intresting to see if any far right group calls an anti-islam demo and what the edl response would be. 

One particluar long term route is that lake will become the spokesman for 'anti-islamist movement' and the edl will be transformed into his bodyguards.


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Oct 15, 2009)

revlon said:


> One particluar long term route is that lake will become the spokesman for 'anti-islamist movement' and the edl will be transformed into his bodyguards.



This isn't the Netherlands.


----------



## revlon (Oct 15, 2009)

lake's got his agenda. He wants to be more public and outspoken about islam but knows he can't do it without some form of physical backup. No difficult to know what role he sees for the edl.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> "man up" you little bitches



That's the sort of language In Bloom normally uses


----------



## invisibleplanet (Oct 15, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> SIOE are essentially one nutter and a dog.



But planning another Harrow Mosque demo on 13th December and more prominent narrative on that 4freedom forum (along with the EDL St. George division, so altogether a more fundy Christian rightwing flavour).


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

Spion said:


> Oh, give over. Man up and deal with the things that IP says instead of trying to close down debate. And the speculation (which is all it ever really was) about the Choudhary thing in London is of genuine interest - if the EDL is true to its founding causes they'll be torn over what to do on the 31st


 spion yes it is worth discussing many things inc london v leeds for the EDL .. but IP has no links into this murky world, as many inc me, on here do and hence though was coming out with totally idle and pointless speculation yet stating categorically what would happen to the extent that someone else ran with it, that EDL had cancelled Leeds when they had not 

... sorry but IP says nowt of worth and worse just chats shite frankly .. i put very few people on ignore  ( fyi Drink, One Stop Shop, Brassicitique,  Carousel, IP and Tarranu ) not for political reason or to avoid argument but as they just simply talk rubbish and smear not once but regularly 

and yes accusing people of being of being far right or racist or whatever is certainly far worse than putting someone on ignore as yes it is entirely possible that in the real world someone will decide to take action on that .. in my case unlikely as i am well known but ..


----------



## tarannau (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't smear you Durrutti. I call you unhealthily obsessed one-issue simpleton, and with good reason too.

We've seen your laughable smear attempts on the 'blood-libel' issue, so I sincerely suggest that you wind your neck in and stop trying to claim the moral high ground. 

<expects another torrent of simplistic islam(ofash)-obsessed nonsense and more self-aggrandising 'prolier than thou' pish


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2009)

tarannau said:


> I don't smear you Durrutti. I call you unhealthily obsessed one-issue simpleton, and with good reason too.
> 
> We've seen your laughable smear attempts on the 'blood-libel' issue, so I sincerely suggest that you wind your neck in and stop trying to claim the moral high ground.
> 
> <expects another torrent of simplistic islam(ofash)-obsessed nonsense and more self-aggrandising 'prolier than thou' pish



I actually find Durutti healthily concerned with a wide number of issues affecting the working class and offering challange and  insight. Might not agree with everything he says but in no way is he an 'unhealthily obsessed one-issue simpleton'

Btw you may or have may not noticed but race and immigraon is a priority issue  in most Mori voter polls.


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

revlon said:


> lake's got his agenda. He wants to be more public and outspoken about islam but knows he can't do it without some form of physical backup. No difficult to know what role he sees for the edl.



who is he though ? 

  6 part series  

but he doesn't seem to google .. the only reference is this 

" .. Alan Lake, a 45-year-old businessman from Highgate, North London .. " which is simply copied from link to link 

is he the same Alan Lake who is secretary of Aquarius Archery Club in Highgate?

http://www.aquarius-archers.org.uk/index.php

one link has him as 'alan lake' as if that is NOT his name


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 15, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> who is he though ?
> 
> 6 part series
> 
> ...




He's on youtube linking up with the 'Euronationalist' Swedish Democrats.


----------



## belboid (Oct 15, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Btw you may or have may not noticed but race and immigraon is a priority issue  in most Mori voter polls.



not as much as one might think tho

"A quarter (25%) are concerned about race relations/immigration, although public concern about this issue has been dropping over the past three months."

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/poll.aspx?oItemId=2452

Even amongst BNP voters it isnt the number one issue


----------



## tarannau (Oct 15, 2009)

And that's in a media climate that continually prattles on about immigration. Add to that push most people on what they believe about immigration and they'll mention rumours, half truths and misplaced perceptions than the more prosaic reality. There's too often a hysterical, uninformed tone to the 'debate'

Immigration and the BNP should be much smaller issues than they are, both on here and in general. There's an unhealthy obsession about them generally, both here and in the wider world.


----------



## revlon (Oct 15, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> who is he though ?
> 
> 6 part series
> 
> ...




aye listened to all 6.

Trouble is there's a few alan lake's floating about on google (including diana dors ex!)

I'd recommened listening to his youtube videos. You kind of see where edl are getting their tactical approach from. And now it's all comfortably together under the 4freedoms banner, who knows.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2009)

belboid said:


> not as much as one might think tho
> 
> "A quarter (25%) are concerned about race relations/immigration, although public concern about this issue has been dropping over the past three months."
> 
> ...



There is no denying that race and immigration are seen as key issues Belboid. I would anticipate that when you pick through issues about the recession you will find that race and immigration will surface time and time again. 

Incidentially the You Gov polls just after the Euro elections found that 87% of BNP supporters saw immigration as one of the biggest issues, compared to 49% of voters as a whole.

Among supporters of the Conservatives, UKIP, and BNP (and presumably, English Democrats) majorities favour stopping all further immigration, withdrawing from the EU, consider Islam to be a threat to Western civilisation, disagree that recent immigration has helped the British economy, and believe that white people are unfairly discriminated against.What marks the BNP as different to the other parties on the right is that many of the party’s supporters are genuinely racially prejudiced, and are very hostile to homosexuality. The views of Labour, Liberal Democrat, and Green voters are diametrically opposed (although large minorities of their voters hold right wing views on these subjects).


Against these polls there is also longer term evidence that less people think that in order to be British you have to be white .

Its a mixed picture but it does show that there is a widespread eurosceptic anti immigration and nationalist current into which racism can expand , I think we can see this with fears about Islam.

Poses some problems for the liberal left with its general pro Europe, open borders and internationalist concerned approach..


----------



## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

belboid said:


> not as much as one might think tho
> 
> "A quarter (25%) are concerned about race relations/immigration, although public concern about this issue has been dropping over the past three months."
> 
> ...



not sure anyone ever suggested it was a number 1 issue just it was a key issue but yes priority is maybe wrong word .. whats fascinating in that graft of unemployment is how mass unemployment has come to be taken for granted


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## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

revlon said:


> aye listened to all 6.
> 
> Trouble is there's a few alan lake's floating about on google (including diana dors ex!)
> 
> I'd recommened listening to his youtube videos. You kind of see where edl are getting their tactical approach from. And now it's all comfortably together under the 4freedoms banner, who knows.



can't you summarise for us??


----------



## belboid (Oct 15, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> There is no denying that race and immigration are seen as key issues Belboid.


whoever said anything different Steptoe?



> Incidentially the You Gov polls just after the Euro elections found that 87% of BNP supporters saw immigration as one of the biggest issues, compared to 49% of voters as a whole.


can't find the elevant poll now, buit I really dont think it was quite that high - 87% of BNP voters thought immigrants 'jumped the queue' for housing, but that's not the same thing.



> Poses some problems for the liberal left with its general pro Europe, open borders and internationalist concerned approach..



No more so than in previous decades when the same was also true. Certainly no reason to dump principles just for (hoped for) short term gain.


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## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2009)

belboid said:


> whoever said anything different Steptoe?
> 
> 
> can't find the elevant poll now, buit I really dont think it was quite that high - 87% of BNP voters thought immigrants 'jumped the queue' for housing, but that's not the same thing.
> ...



Funnily enough I was talking to some one we both know about you the other night and trying to work out how you get so irritated. 

Apart, from the fact that the present period is not the same as previous decades and thus might require a diffrent approach from the stopped clock tactics of Trostskyism ,since when has being pro European, anti borders etc been a principle?


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## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

people may also have missed SWANSEA 17TH OCTOBER and NEWPORT 24TH OCTOBER


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## belboid (Oct 15, 2009)

The39thStep said:


> Funnily enough I was talking to some one we both know about you the other night and trying to work out how you get so irritated.


being bored of those that come out with stuff that sounds like it is being said to create an excuse to sit on their arse might be one thing.*



> Apart, from the fact that the present period is not the same as previous decades and thus might require a diffrent approach from the stopped clock tactics of Trostskyism ,since when has being pro European, anti borders etc been a principle?



I wouldn't agree that being 'pro european' _is_ a current aspect of the 'left', now or in the past.  Being against migration controls and in favour of internationalism certainly is tho.

As to the extent to which 'the present period' is totally different to previous times, I dont fully agree. For sure there are important differences - not least the weakness of the left - but are they fundamental differences?  I dont think so.  It means we have to adapt our strategy and tactics, but not our principles.


*e2a:  oh, and hangovers


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## audiotech (Oct 15, 2009)

butchersapron said:


> If you're going to play at mendacity then smearing people as far-right is to call for them to be physically attacked.



Exaggeration to the extreme.


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## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

so EDL now planning to do both Leeds and LOndon on the 31st, after a day of confusion and anger at each other .. people saying now they won't go to either and some saying if EDL get done in Leeds it will be the fault of those who changed the location .. fun fun fun .. more deatils on S4UK thread

Lady England
just got home, OFFICIAL STANCE OF EDL FOR 31ST = LONDON against ANJEM CHOUDRAY, all those that are able to attend contact me direct for meeting points etc, anyone unable to make london and still wish to have a presence in LEEDS that day let me know a...s need to let police know asap, I will be co-ordinating london, will have the banners etc and we need to show him we wont let him take our CAPITAL CITY !

Lady England wrote at 16:29
after talking to tommy all day, it has been decided that our main demo will be london as our primary objectives are against anjem choudray and sharia law and this is where he will be, we need to show him he cant make demands in our capitol city or against our monarch, anyone unabvle to make london and still wishing to go to leeds to protest contact me for details as we will be having a simultanous demo there for those that want it or cant make london


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## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

and if you ever wondered who did what they have very kindly just told us  


Lady England wrote at 17:34

ok let me explain how the edl works, tommy robinson is main organiser, trevor kelway deals with press etc, i am police liason dealing with all official form filling and meetings to make sure our protests are legal, joel titus is edl youth main person, joe cardiff is wdl and casuals, John sheridon is also an integral main part of edl, as a group as a whole all main admins talk between themselves and decide on next move, we do consult ppl but as so many fb groups and so much infiltration by uaf etc that is hard to control via facebook, that is why we encourage ppl to use the forum.

I do understand the confusion many have felt today re leeds v london, but as i said previously i have been on phone all day trying to confirm and arrange things, lots of ppl are involved with organising and i do try to keep up with all different groups boards and forums, but i draw the line at 12/14 hrs a day and 300+ e-mails, if anyone has any serious concerns feel free to pm me personally.


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## tbaldwin (Oct 15, 2009)

tarannau said:


> And that's in a media climate that continually prattles on about immigration. Add to that push most people on what they believe about immigration and they'll mention rumours, half truths and misplaced perceptions than the more prosaic reality. There's too often a hysterical, uninformed tone to the 'debate'
> 
> Immigration and the BNP should be much smaller issues than they are, both on here and in general. There's an unhealthy obsession about them generally, both here and in the wider world.



There are a lot of hysterical and uninformed views on immigration tarannau. 
Agree with you on that but you sadly think those only come from people who disagree with you.
Your views on immigration seem to be cliched in the extreme and tend to ignore the reality that mass economic migration makes the world a far more unequal place.


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## tarannau (Oct 15, 2009)

And what is your evidence for immigration making the 'world a more unequal place?"

Somehow I doubt you'll be able to provide any real information to back up your nuanced claims, instead wittering on about nurses and doctors being poached by the NHS again. The world has been an unequal place for pretty much as long as humankind has existed, but are you really claiming that global inequality has widened with wider international trade and migration?  Is it worse now, for example, than the days of empire and pillaging colonies for resources? There's a balance somewhere, but your simplistic claim seems hard to fathom.


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## tbaldwin (Oct 15, 2009)

tarannau said:


> And what is your evidence for immigration making the 'world a more unequal place?"
> 
> Somehow I doubt you'll be able to provide any real information to back up your nuanced claims, instead wittering on about nurses and doctors being poached by the NHS again. The world has been an unequal place for pretty much as long as humankind has existed, but are you really claiming that global inequality has widened with wider international trade and migration?  Is it worse now, for example, than the days of empire and pillaging colonies for resources? There's a balance somewhere, but your simplistic claim seems hard to fathom.




The evidence for economic migration being a net negative is shown all over Africa and Asian in poorer countries losing the young and skilled workers they most need.
The evidence you would see if you spent any time say in a hospital is skilled workers coming from some of the poorest nations on earth.
People who have seen their families and countries torn apart by the kind of policies you support.


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## tarannau (Oct 15, 2009)

That's not evidence at all Balders, that's you piping up with same old nonsense once again.

There's of course the growth of remittances, of some families gaining greater social mobility as a result, and the sheer fact that many developing nations are capable of training and providing qualified health care professionals at all. A few generations those achievements would have been nigh on impossible - empires like ours would have simply taken resources, by force if necessary, and offered little to native workers other than employment under expat middle managers.

I've spent plenty of time in hospital fwiw, with some of my family taking exactly that route. And guess what, some have gone back home to take their skills back too.


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## belboid (Oct 15, 2009)

oh dont get him started on his one subject, yet again.  the tedious twat has destroyed enough threads with his ill-informed gibberish already


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## tbaldwin (Oct 15, 2009)

tarannau said:


> That's not evidence at all Balders, that's you piping up with same old nonsense once again.
> 
> There's of course the growth of remittances, of some families gaining greater social mobility as a result, and the sheer fact that many developing nations are capable of training and providing qualified health care professionals at all. A few generations those achievements would have been nigh on impossible - empires like ours would have simply taken resources, by force if necessary, and offered little to native workers other than employment under expat middle managers.
> 
> I've spent plenty of time in hospital fwiw, with some of my family taking exactly that route. And guess what, some have gone back home to take their skills back too.



Its evidence that you choose to ignore as you have been influenced to believe what basically amounts to a load of reactionary racist nonsense.

The remittances arguement is just part of that nonsense....The farcical idea that somehow people sending money home to their individual families somehow compensates a whole nation for losing skilled workers is classic trickle down economics.


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## tarannau (Oct 15, 2009)

Balders, the fact that you're continually harping about this one aspect of inequality, with no facts or stats to back your tiresomely repetitive one trick pony viewpoint, betrays just how weak your position is. As a whole wouldn't you say that many developing nations are increasingly improving their lot compared to the past (and their past masters) suggests that that global inequality is lessening in many ways? 

Please explain the 'reactionary racist nonsense' line to me. Whilst you may be frothing, you're not making much sense.


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## tbaldwin (Oct 15, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Balders, the fact that you're continually harping about this one aspect of inequality, with no facts or stats to back your tiresomely repetitive one trick pony viewpoint, betrays just how weak your position is. As a whole wouldn't you say that many developing nations are increasingly improving their lot compared to the past (and their past masters) suggests that that global inequality is lessening in many ways?
> 
> Please explain the 'reactionary racist nonsense' line to me. Whilst you may be frothing, you're not making much sense.




tarannau. Its reactionary racist nonsense to ignore unfair trade,slavery and economic migration as factors that hold nations and people back.

The idea that many developing nations are increasingly improving is an attractive one perpetuated by people who think the economist and ngo statistics are good sources of information.
How mant times have we had to read bullshit about how well India is doing!
Yeah right a country rich in natural resources where 880 million people live on less than $2 a day....

Under the days of imperialism rich countries plundered poorer countries of natural resources including people........Do you really think that plundering those countries of the people they need ended with the abolition of slavery?


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 15, 2009)

Is Balders saying that we should stop Brits emigrating to Oz, Canada, Spain, New Zealand etc? 
e.g. 200,000 Britons emigrated in 2007


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## Grandma Death (Oct 15, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> what you think people support jihad?? lol



Thats not what you said.


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## tbaldwin (Oct 15, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> Is Balders saying that we should stop Brits emigrating to Oz, Canada, Spain, New Zealand etc?
> e.g. 200,000 Britons emigrated in 2007



I think all migration needs to be tightly controlled. And the white migrants we have from SA,NZ and Australia should definetely be tightly controlled and vice versa.
Often you will find white migrants like them find it a lot easier to get jobs than Black and asian people who grew up in this country.


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## durruti02 (Oct 15, 2009)

hey peeps can we keep this on topic   ( p.s. just txted you )


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 16, 2009)

Report from last Saturday from Manchester Alternative media organ, The Mule

http://themule.info/article/edl-outnumbered-in-manchester-protest

piece gives little mention of UAF and notes

_Many Manchester residents not directly associated with the UAF turned out to express their disgust at the EDL’s choice of Manchester as the site to protest_


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## ska invita (Oct 16, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Report from last Saturday from Manchester Alternative media organ, The Mule
> 
> http://themule.info/article/edl-outnumbered-in-manchester-protest
> 
> ...



Jason Parkinsons got a good write up with lots of pics too (He's primarily a photo journalist I think)
http://jasonnparkinson.blogspot.com/2009/10/racist-chants-nazi-salutes-in.html







> Saturday 10 October 2009: It was the return of Nazi "Sieg Heil" salutes and the racists chants of, "If you all hate Pakis clap your hands" - something they say they are completely against - as the English Defence League (EDL) returned to the streets of the UK, this time it was in Manchester.


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## revlon (Oct 16, 2009)

> Saturday's EDL numbers must now draw concern that they can pull in a large crowd of up to 1000 people for their protests, with supporters travelling to Manchester from Southampton, Bristol, Arsenal in London, Wales and Scotland.
> 
> This may have had something to do with the England football match not being televised, but also the fact - as the interview shows - disillusioned, angry white youths are turning to the EDL in the face of the current social and economic ills, because they see no future in any other political group. That is something that needs addressing, and quick.



even photojournalists seem to be getting it.


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## ska invita (Oct 16, 2009)

revlon said:


> even photojournalists seem to be getting it.


Jason Parkinson is a good guy - he does a lot of work campaigning against the clamp down and criminalisation of the press.


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## The39thStep (Oct 16, 2009)

belboid said:


> being bored of those that come out with stuff that sounds like it is being said to create an excuse to sit on their arse might be one thing.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is more to life than being a headless chicken chasing the wrong end of the pantomine horse in manchester belboid, and then complaining that the Police (who presumably from the 'anti fascists' views were there to protect the fascists ) weren't being beastly enough to them.

I don't think no immigration controls is necessarily a principle of a pro working class left and whilst I agree in supporting workers abroad and international solidarity I think if we had focussed on events that local working class communities thought important rather than what the left did then the left wouldn't be as weak as its is .

I think that pretty much spells out the difference.

Ps Ginger beer is my best hang over medicine


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## revlon (Oct 16, 2009)

ska invita said:


> Jason Parkinson is a good guy -



to be honest i get the opposite. Depends where you are standing when he takes his photos presumably.


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## ska invita (Oct 17, 2009)

revlon said:


> to be honest i get the opposite. Depends where you are standing when he takes his photos presumably.


dont want to sidetrack this thread too much, but why? Has he been taking photos through your bedroom window? Or is it more that you object to people taking photos at demos/actions(without your personal clearance)?


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## revlon (Oct 17, 2009)

ska invita said:


> dont want to sidetrack this thread too much, but why? Has he been taking photos through your bedroom window? Or is it more that you object to people taking photos at demos/actions(without your personal clearance)?



he filmed a demo at the greek embassy in london a while back where a few people got nicked. One of the defendants, who wasn't represented at the time, asked if could use the footage that would prove his innocence in court. The guy demanded £500 and refused to let any of it be used as part of his defence case (although said he would happily hand it over to the police if they asked for it). The only evidence against this person was a couple of lying coppers.

He's not particluarly well thought of amongst some political actvists in london. 

Anyway not the issue.


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## durruti02 (Oct 17, 2009)

http://www.englishdefenceleague.org/why-are-the-edl-not-counter-demonstrating-against-islam4uk.html

though edl activists have also set up a 'casuals united countering anjem choudary' facebook so ..


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 18, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> people may also have missed SWANSEA 17TH OCTOBER and NEWPORT 24TH OCTOBER



Less than 100 WDL turned up for Swansea yesterday (some say 60, some say less). 

WDL have called off Newport demo. 



			
				WDL said:
			
		

> "Newport demo is now OFF spoken to the police and they expect a lot of violence from local blacks, who it seems are convinced we are the klan or whatever, as we dont want to be responsible for a riot, by people we would expect to support what we are doing, we are cancelling until we are able to get message out there that we are not a racist group. "






			
				EDL member at Swansea said:
			
		

> "(it)Was a joke. Descended into nothing more than a NF rally. No organisation from [our] side it ended up with the UAF actually protesting in the area we were given. When we mobbed up to go and tell them to f**k off the police helds us all for the duration of are alloted protest time. There was more white power there along with idiots who just thought we were bnp/nf than there were E/WDL. Racist comments sieg heil salutes and the burning of an anti swastika flag ensued."


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## lewislewis (Oct 18, 2009)

Victory for the anti-racists in South Wales.

Approx 60 Welsh Defence League , exclusively male crowd, turned up to be faced down by over 200 anti-racist demonstrators who peacefully opposed them. A broad section of the community attended the counter-demo including ordinary people not just political activists. The local mosque had some people out but the majority of the counter-demo was white people. A number of Assembly Members from Labour and Plaid Cymru attended, as did UAF, Searchlight, trade unions and students.

Swansea unfortunately witnessed the vile spectacle of men openly giving Nazi salutes in front of groups of children. But on the day our side won without having a single person arrested, whereas a WDL/EDL thug was arrested for racially abusive language. There was no trouble and it passed off quite nicely leaving Swansea a better place. They reared their heads, were confronted and held to account, and then scuttled off.


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## durruti02 (Oct 18, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> Victory for the anti-racists in South Wales.
> 
> Approx 60 Welsh Defence League , exclusively male crowd, turned up to be faced down by over 200 anti-racist demonstrators who peacefully opposed them. A broad section of the community attended the counter-demo including ordinary people not just political activists. The local mosque had some people out but the majority of the counter-demo was white people. A number of Assembly Members from Labour and Plaid Cymru attended, as did UAF, Searchlight, trade unions and students.
> 
> Swansea unfortunately witnessed the vile spectacle of men openly giving Nazi salutes in front of groups of children. But on the day our side won without having a single person arrested, whereas a WDL/EDL thug was arrested for racially abusive language. There was no trouble and it passed off quite nicely leaving Swansea a better place. They reared their heads, were confronted and held to account, and then scuttled off.



WDL themselves are mailing out that their demo was hijacked by nazis! and they are in a right mess on the forums, all saying what a disaster it was and having a go at Nazis, well not becuase they are nazis but because they turned up and burnt a anti-anti-nazi flag and seig heiled and chanted BNP, on THEIR demo. some saying why didn't you sort out the nazis and you should have know the valleys has loads of nazis and swansea of BNP, 'what did you expect??" !! lol 

sounds like end of WDL to me 

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/...uting-Welsh-Defence-League-takes-streets.html


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## lewislewis (Oct 18, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> WDL themselves are mailing out that their demo was hijacked by nazis! and they are in a right mess on the forums, all saying what a disaster it was and having a go at Nazis, well not becuase they are nazis but because they turned up and burnt a anti-anti-nazi flag and seig heiled and chanted BNP, on THEIR demo. some saying why didn't you sort out the nazis and you should have know the valleys has loads of nazis and swansea of BNP, 'what did you expect??" !! lol
> 
> sounds like end of WDL to me
> 
> http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/...uting-Welsh-Defence-League-takes-streets.html



Burning an anti-swastika flag isn't the best way of disproving the Nazi connections!


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## frogwoman (Oct 18, 2009)

they're doing it wrong


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## durruti02 (Oct 18, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> Burning an anti-swastika flag isn't the best way of disproving the Nazi connections!


 er yes my point!


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## Spion (Oct 18, 2009)

just goes to show that if you try to oppose Islamism, and you are not v careful how you do it slogan/chant-wise and you don't make a supreme effort to get ordinary muslims onside, then you're going to attract all the wrong sorts (assuming there are some genuinely not racists among the EDL who are pissed off at all the out and out nazis showing up)


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 18, 2009)

Spion said:


> just goes to show that if you try to oppose Islamism, and you are not v careful how you do it slogan/chant-wise and you don't make a supreme effort to get ordinary muslims onside, then you're going to attract all the wrong sorts (assuming there are some genuinely not racists among the EDL who are pissed off at all the out and out nazis showing up)



I think that's a fair assessment and I believe there are some genuine non-racists among the EDL and I think a Communities Against Fundamentalism initiative might be the only way forward for multiple communities to come together over the issue of opposing fundamentalisms.


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## belboid (Oct 18, 2009)

> I think that pretty much spells out the difference.


this would be a quite devasting spelling out, if it weren't for the fact that it's lazy stereotyping, innacurate, and an excuse for sitting on your arse doing nowt.



The39thStep said:


> There is more to life than being a headless chicken chasing the wrong end of the pantomine horse in manchester belboid,


when you were involved in 'street' anti-fascism you might have run around like a headless chicken, but that's no reason to asssume anyone else did the other week. No need for it whatsoever, calmly watching where EDLers were gathering, following them and taking a few pics is all pretty easy - even for old farts like me n you. Or should we just have ignored them? That wouldn't have done much good, would it?



> and then complaining that the Police (who presumably from the 'anti fascists' views were there to protect the fascists ) weren't being beastly enough to them.


oh dear oh dear, have you not read the thread, or are you just being deliberately dishonest?  You choose to concentrate on the sixty odd seconds of the police swinging out at the racists, whilst ignoring the five hours they allowed them to wander the streets in groups chanting racist slogans and intimidating non-white shoppers.  I know you have rejected the marxist view of the state these days, but quite why you should see the need to defend the police so much, i dont know.

Let's be clear, the activities of those anti-fascists who weren't held by the police in Piccasdilly Square certainly didn't deal any knock-out blow to the EDL, or send them away with their tales between their legs, but it did something that used to be a central part of such work.  It got the racists to _expose themsevles_. The nazi salutes, racist chanting and anti _all_ muslim placards exposed the lie that they are not a bunch of racist arseholes.  The existence of two black people on the demo would not - to the vast majority of people - outweigh the blatant racism on display.

You, meanwhile, thought no one should do owt on the day.  Which would have left them with an even clearer victory, which would have allowed them to walk the streets even more confidently.  And would have left them cockier for next time, more likely to involve themselves in the racist violence so many of them are clearly missing. 

All in all, you can sit back n be as smug as you like, but it achieves fuck all, and allows the racists a free ride.



> I don't think no immigration controls is necessarily a principle of a pro working class left and whilst I agree in supporting workers abroad and international solidarity I think if we had focussed on events that local working class communities thought important rather than what the left did then the left wouldn't be as weak as its is .


demands for the free movement of labour have been a part of the socialist movement for decades, at the very least. If it is rejected, we accpet that bosses can determine where people can work, whereas it should be workers determining that. And there is no need to put forward your false dichotomy of supporting the free movement of labour _or_ focussing on local issues, it is perfectly possible to do both. As we should.



> Ps Ginger beer is my best hang over medicine



I'll bear that in mind, would it still work if you'd been drinking a ginger spiced beer tho...???


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## durruti02 (Oct 18, 2009)

From WDL 
"Swansea Demo hijacked by Nazis
Of 120 people that turned up in Swansea, a large number were Nazi Skinheads, who basically hijacked the demo, wouldnt be told not to Seig Heil or chant "BNP" and seemed intent on ruining it for us, and making Mike, who's been on TV and radio for weeks saying we arent racist, look like a cunt. Its obvious from Nazi websites like Stormfront that they despise us, because they cant accept that we are standing up for our country, but we allow black people and other races march with us. Well we wont allow them to ruin it for us, we will in future not announce our demos, just turn up with trusted members and have our demos. That way Nazis cant latch on and UAF Communist clowns wont be able to mobilize and cause trouble. Happy days!" from casuals united


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## invisibleplanet (Oct 18, 2009)

AFAIK, they're duty-bound to announce their demos. If they don't they'll be moved on immediately by police, possibly arrested for breach of the peace.


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## smokedout (Oct 18, 2009)

more off topic google ads comedy


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2009)

"This demonstration has been delayed due to the wrong sort of racist."


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## audiotech (Oct 18, 2009)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> ... and making Mike, who's been on TV and radio for weeks saying we arent racist, look like a cunt


 
To be honest, wearing a balaclava whilst being interviewed on TV made "Mike" look like a cunt already.


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## revlon (Oct 19, 2009)

invisibleplanet said:


> AFAIK, they're duty-bound to announce their demos. If they don't they'll be moved on immediately by police, possibly arrested for breach of the peace.



there's no legal obligation to inform the police in advance you will be holding a demonstration [public assembly] and the police have no legal power to prevent a demonstration going ahead. They do have to power to impose conditions but only concerning the size, duration and location.


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## durruti02 (Oct 19, 2009)

MC5 said:


> To be honest, wearing a balaclava whilst being interviewed on TV made "Mike" look like a cunt already.


 he he they're all arguing about that too .. they cancelled a photo op when the interviewer demaded they all wear balaclavers


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## audiotech (Oct 19, 2009)

The Welsh division out at the weekend. No clogs, leeks, or daffodils to be seen anywhere amongst those that turned up.

Wales Online.


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## BlackArab (Oct 19, 2009)

Had my doubts about the success of a WDL march. Cardiff & Swansea united? There's a flaw in that plan...


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## lewislewis (Oct 19, 2009)

MC5 said:


> The Welsh division out at the weekend. No clogs, leeks, or daffodils to be seen anywhere amongst those that turned up.
> 
> Wales Online.



Annoying that there are people hogging the comments to that article, outsiders who have been mobilised by the fash.

It's ridiculous that there would ever be placards saying  “Behead those who insult Islam”, “Sharia is the solution”, “Freedom go to Hell”, “Police go to Hell”, “Anglian Soldiers go to Hell” in Wales. There simply isn't the level of immigration here to support Islamic extremist movements or protests. The broad left is quite strong here though, and i'm confident any action the WDL do from here will be outnumbered every time.


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## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2009)

BlackArab said:


> Had my doubts about the success of a WDL march. Cardiff & Swansea united? There's a flaw in that plan...


Saw the pics today, there's people out who they can't control now. Faces i hadn't seen in a long time.


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## durruti02 (Oct 20, 2009)

BlackArab said:


> Had my doubts about the success of a WDL march. Cardiff & Swansea united? There's a flaw in that plan...


 it would seem 'marshy' wasn't able to pull very many over from cardiff!! lol and it begs the question does he have a firm at all?


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## where to (Oct 21, 2009)

not sure if this has been posted before but its an excellent close-up video of those on the EDL protest in Manchester.


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## treelover (Oct 21, 2009)

I'vew just seen it over on SU in the discussion about NG and QT, its obvious that they are now a significant 'street force' and the UAF, students, etc, would have got hammered if they ahd taken the EDL on on the day.


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## Spion (Oct 22, 2009)

treelover said:


> over on SU in the discussion about NG and QT


The what?


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## treelover (Oct 22, 2009)

sorry, socialist unity, nick griffin, question time


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## durruti02 (Oct 22, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> it would seem 'marshy' wasn't able to pull very many over from cardiff!! lol and it begs the question does he have a firm at all?


 they now saying 'cardiff' were 'warned off' from coming to swansea!! lol


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## durruti02 (Oct 22, 2009)

btw EDL going to Leeds and Casuals United are the badge for EDL who want to stay in london .. seems like there will be a few .. but most think S4UK march will be banned


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## durruti02 (Nov 6, 2009)

interesting interview with EDL supporters 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/filkaler/4078749400/


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## upsidedownwalrus (Nov 6, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> interesting interview with EDL supporters
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/filkaler/4078749400/



They look more like SWP types  Would probably not get admitted to anything BNP related


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## upsidedownwalrus (Nov 6, 2009)

But then the girl predictably said the thing about 'not letting the country get turned into something it's not'.  Sadly the last 50 years of depressing americanisation in all the wrong ways has already done that


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## upsidedownwalrus (Nov 6, 2009)

I do like the point someone made on a thread recently about summer solstice, Shakespeare and so on and how half this BNP kind of types were probably ignorant of it all, it does show that the main problem is lack of education, perhaps, which draws people into a more brutallistic backward kind of nationalism, which has been mostly relativey absent from this country in the past...


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## Spion (Nov 6, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> interesting interview with EDL supporters
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/filkaler/4078749400/


What do you find interesting about it?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 6, 2009)

Spion said:


> What do you find interesting about it?


the fact they can stand up and talk at the same time?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 6, 2009)

it's great. the gal with the pink hair says we're not going to take it sitting down.

when she's standing up.

forensic


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 6, 2009)

Spion said:


> What do you find interesting about it?



I found it interesting cos they do look more like "indie" kids. Perhaps they are just reactionaries who follow fashion, but perhaps the reactionaries got to them with an anti-establishment narrative before the left did.


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## upsidedownwalrus (Nov 6, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I found it interesting cos they do look more like "indie" kids. Perhaps they are just reactionaries who follow fashion, but perhaps the reactionaries got to them with an anti-establishment narrative before the left did.



Yeah.  That's what I was thinking, hence the intended-to-be-slightly-trolling SWPer comparison 

You would think they were UAF types though looking at them, if there are 'types' who follow particular groups per se... Most skinheads I've met have been lefty ravers...


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## Davo1 (Nov 6, 2009)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I found it interesting cos they do look more like "indie" kids. Perhaps they are just reactionaries who follow fashion, but perhaps the reactionaries got to them with an anti-establishment narrative before the left did.



The Emo/ Goth/ 'Metaller' thing can sometimes be incredibly right wing. When I was on the 'anti war' march in Manchester on the day they launched the attacks we when past the Grand Central on Oxford Road (the local 'metal' pub) and they all started booing and heckling. Little bastards 

i remember having a argument with a load of 'metallers' about 'Napster' and the 'property rights' of artists in the late 90s and they were all defending Lars Ulrich like he was some kind of god. utterly depressing.

Those 'sub cultures' are just so conservative and nationalistic, its nothing like how I assume punk was in the seventies. Unless someone who was there can tell me different?


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## durruti02 (Nov 7, 2009)

Spion said:


> What do you find interesting about it?


 they are not casuals


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## trevhagl (Nov 7, 2009)

upsidedownwalrus said:


> Yeah.  That's what I was thinking, hence the intended-to-be-slightly-trolling SWPer comparison
> 
> You would think they were UAF types though looking at them, if there are 'types' who follow particular groups per se... Most skinheads I've met have been lefty ravers...




the world has gone mad i think. Indie/emo kids supporting the EDL!! Eh??? 

whereas people automatically assume I'M a nazi so every time i go in a dodgy pub some cunt comes up and starts the old "they come here and get EVERYTHING" lines


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## durruti02 (Nov 20, 2009)

some gems in here .. though mainly nutty stuff as befits a nat forum 

broken link below 

http://www.nwn-for  um.co.uk/sho  wthre  ad.php?t=25  76&page=6


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## greenman (Nov 20, 2009)

durruti02 said:


> some gems in here .. though mainly nutty stuff as befits a nat forum
> 
> broken link below
> 
> http://www.nwn-for  um.co.uk/sho  wthre  ad.php?t=25  76&page=6



Good grief!  I thought we had our fair share of people with mental health issues on _here_ before I had a look at that forum!  It appears to be full of people for whom _the BNP _is an example of leftist political correctness


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## durruti02 (Dec 8, 2009)

this from indymedia today i think sums up EDL  .. can't tell who it is though .. guessing not jeff marsh .. i'll have a think on it 


"EDL

08.12.2009 18:40
You think EDL operate in some sort of vacuum, that we don't talk to people, behind the scenes we talk to a great many people and once they are able to see through all the hype they agree with us.

As for the BNP, who am I to judge people, if some one says that they agree with our cause, then we give them a chance, if they step out of line we throw them out. We don't care about peoples past affiliations.
We are not connected to the BNP or any political group, EDL is EDL.

What you can't stand is that we are patriots and you don't have to a nazi or a racist to be for queen and country.

The idea that this country is white and anglo saxon is out of date, we have a multi-cultural society now and black, brown and white need to unite against political Islam and show them there is no place for them in this country.

The purpose of EDL is to spark debate and we have sparked debate and Muslims are coming out and standing up against the extremist.

Do you really believe that the threat by Choudary is all we march against, how about the Saudi government pouring millions of pounds into mosque building and then staffing them with extremists, how about the setting up of faith schools that teach this extreme version of Islam, subverting our young men into becoming suicide bombers.

You consider your selves working class but you are not, we are the working class and we reflect the opinions and concerns of the working class.
Your ideology is out of date, dead in the water, there will not be a workers revolution in this country because your solution is fascist but your mind is closed to this.

As for using your forum as a playground, you infiltrate our forums all the time, not one word of abuse have I given you all, I have ignored the name calling and have simply put a point of view. Why, because I believe in debate.

We will force the government to act, have no doubt about that. We are united, you can't stop us, you can only react and that's only because we give you the chance to react by telling you when and where our next demo is, this we will change in the near future. One peaceful demo is all we'll need for people to see who the violent ones are.

Arthur "


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## purplex (Dec 8, 2009)

greenman said:


> Good grief!  I thought we had our fair share of people with mental health issues on _here_ before I had a look at that forum!  It appears to be full of people for whom _the BNP _is an example of leftist political correctness



The jihadist forums are equally bonkers mind.


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