# Pretend ASBO



## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

Hey my eldest got served one of these by the Anti Social Behavioural Team. It’s not a police document _so far as I can tell_ and he’s (genuinely for once) not done owt wrong.

It forbids him from entering about 10 properties (basically a cul de sac) of council flats directly opposite our house. There was a problem flat where they’d housed this kiddie (19 epilepsy and learning difficulty) and it had become one of those hangouts for kids to sell drugs and cause trouble. Next doors grandson (who is a right shifty little cunt in his early 20s) was involved. They’ve evicted him now and served these orders.

Anyway, I can guarantee you my boy has not been there. I just know he hasn’t. He’s been targeted by association cos he used to hang out with three lads up til a year ago who’ve been involved. But that isn’t fair and he’s outraged and upset cos he’s NOT been getting into bother. Is it worth me challenging or should I just chuck it in the bin?


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

This is it

Bugger deleted as still got bit of address on  I’ll try again


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

Try this:


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## keithy (Jun 28, 2018)

Does he need to go to those places listed?

I'd be writing to that Philip hopton about the effec5 of criminalising young ppl and asking for evidence.


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## 5t3IIa (Jun 28, 2018)

marty21 has probably seen these before. Not on the receiving end, no no.


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

keithy said:


> Does he need to go to those places listed?
> 
> I'd be writing to that Philip hopton about the effec5 of criminalising young ppl and asking for evidence.


Well it’s literally across the street. It’s like he can’t walk on the other side of the road.

When the blokes came to serve it I was at work and apparently there was a bit of a scene and he got indignant and told them to eff off so the police came next with it (I was in).


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## dessiato (Jun 28, 2018)

If I were him I'd ask for evidence of his involvement in any anti-social activity.

But I'd also expect none to be given other than "because I said so."

But I've neither experience nor knowledge of how these things work.

Good luck to him. There's nothing worse than being accused of, and punished for, something of which you are not guilty.


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## JuanTwoThree (Jun 28, 2018)

So the council is writing to a council tenant that if they go onto another piece of council land it will be a breach of their tenancy to do so, but there is no injunction yet.

On the one hand someone is being told not to do something they don't do. Which is a bit like being a non-smoker told not to smoke.

 On the other, the first lines suggest a certainty that the person was at these addresses, which is the separate problem of a false accusation. is that worth pursuing?

I am not a lawyer.


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## marty21 (Jun 28, 2018)

5t3IIa said:


> marty21 has probably seen these before. Not on the receiving end, no no.


I have seen similar , usually used to rein in youth and also to concern social housing tenants as they can be used in possession cases again at the tenants down the line if it is breached , speak  with a law centre / cab.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jun 28, 2018)

I'd ask for the evidence that they used to justify this notice.  It isn't clear whether they alleged that your son Edie was involved when they took the matter to court, or are just issuing notices now they have the closure order.

You can also request copies of your personal data through the good old Subject Access route.  If your son is over the age of twelve he can do so in his own right, or provide written authority for you to do so on his behalf.

There are also other rights that you can exercise, such as requesting incorrect data being corrected.  More information is here.  There are some limitations on these rights, depending on what basis for processing the data is being relied on by the council.  PM me if you need more advice on this.


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## mauvais (Jun 28, 2018)

I am not a lawyer. 

This notice is a few things in one, almost all relating to civil law and process, not criminal charges.

For trespass to be a workable charge, you need to have been told not to enter into the property in question in some form, and this is that form. If he breaches that restriction, a case could be pursued against him. Trespass is hard work for limited gain and this is probably unlikely to happen.

It's also a warning that this alleged behaviour puts your tenancy at risk. That doesn't legally change anything, you didn't need to be notified first, it's just an indication of how they might try and handle these problems, i.e. evictions.

The only thing relating to criminal law is the closure order itself. However they haven't made a big deal about this I guess because they're limited in nature.

If I were you, I would be mostly concerned about the risk to the tenancy from the council viewing you as a problem and taking related action in future. I'd be seeking to discuss that in a cooperative way.

Unless your lad incurs some kind of disadvantage by not being able to access these properties, I'd be less fussed about getting that rescinded, but try and keep him in compliance to avoid any hassle.


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## marty21 (Jun 28, 2018)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I'd ask for the evidence that they used to justify this notice.  It isn't clear whether they alleged that your son Edie was involved when they took the matter to court, or are just issuing notices now they have the closure order.
> 
> You can also request copies of your personal data through the good old Subject Access route.  If your son is over the age of twelve he can do so in his own right, or provide written authority for you to do so on his behalf.
> 
> There are also other rights that you can exercise, such as requesting incorrect data being corrected.  More information is here.  There are some limitations on these rights, depending on what basis for processing the data is being relied on by the council.  PM me if you need more advice on this.


Didn't see the Closure Order bit  I have been involved with those, they prevent any unauthorised person from entering a property with a power of arrest attached. I haven't seen an order attached to the Closure Order attached to an individual as the Closure Order should cover all unauthorised persons  .


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

I did ask what evidence they had when the police come round. Apparently it’s a police photograph of my son and his two new mates (not the bad lads) stood outside the flat. From approx two months ago. I asked my son about this and he said yeah they did go over but didn’t go in.

This is all making me anxious cos when he fell out with the bad lads last October it got pretty nasty. They were threatening to stab him and I was trying to take him up to school all the days I don’t work. They then started chucking shit at my house (eggs, stones etc) which I done my best to ignore.  

The final straw was when they did my tyres. I went out to drive to work and couldn’t. I then lost it and called the police and headteacher cos as far as I was concerned there was a kiddie with a knife out there and it scared me. The police went round their houses, and in retribution for that they shot my sons window with an air rifle and broke it and smashed my shed door in.

Throughout all this I’ve been keeping my cool and just telling myself thank bloody God it’s not my son involved, and none of us are hurt, but it’s cost me a lot of money. I’ve just told my son to stay away from them AND HE HAS.

But now after that eviction someone’s put the hedge across the street up (big fire, dripping from the phone wires, two fire trucks). And they’ve started on at my house again, in my back garden. Obviously I’m a single Mum and honestly I try and not let it show (to the kids or to these fucking pricks) but it scares me. They’re not all 14/15. Some of them are men in their 20s or even a lot older who I think have been dealing, I know cos my bedroom window overlooks it and I see them pulling up in expensive cars and the kids getting out iyswim.

So it really bloody grates that my son gets served this order when he’s just not involved with these people any more!


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## Athos (Jun 28, 2018)

Personally irritating for you and your son, no doubt.  And an example of an overreaching state acting arbitrarily with no regard for the principles of natural justice.  But, if it was me, I'd not waste too much time and energy to seriously challenge it (since he doesn't want to go there or mix with those kids, and given they're at least trying to protect a vulnerable person).

All I'd do would be to send a recorded delivery letter explaining that, whilst I have no intention of visiting that address, I completely refute the allegation that I had caused a nuisance, and point out that the thinly veiled threat to the security of my housing situation amounts to an attempt to interfere with my right to a private life under article 8 of the ECHR, which, in the absence of any due process (i.e. an opportunity for me to dispute the allegation) is unlikely to be withstand any legal challenge.

I'd also query the purported Closure Order, as the letter says it was made by the County Court whereas I'd thought, under s.80 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, it had to be the mags.  Similarly, it purports to be "until further notice" but the legislation limits it to a three month maximum term.  Though I'm not really sure about the law in this area, but some others here might be. 

Also, I'd include within the letter a data subject access request for any data relating to me in respect of this incident.

And I'd ask that they stop harassing me but sending menacing letters purporting to have legal effect, but point out that I'd be happy to have a sensible constructive dialogue should they do wish.


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## Poot (Jun 28, 2018)

Bloody hell Edie that's not fair at all. Is there any chance AT ALL that you might be able to move house? Not that you should have to obviously, but it's an obvious way to solve quite a lot of problems at once. Any possibility?


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

^oh Athos Im not sure I have it in me to do all that


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

Poot said:


> Bloody hell Edie that's not fair at all. Is there any chance AT ALL that you might be able to move house? Not that you should have to obviously, but it's an obvious way to solve quite a lot of problems at once. Any possibility?


No I love my house!


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 28, 2018)

Sorry to hear about all the shit you're having to put up with, Edie, I hope it settles down soon.


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

I’m not a council tennant btw I own the house, but there are a lot of tenanted properties around me. So I don’t think they can threaten my house?


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## Grump (Jun 28, 2018)

You say he hasn't been there, then you say he has, but didn't go in, and he was a friend of those who did go in. Why not just accept he was up to no good, even if he was only involved in a small way. The authorities are trying to protect a vulnerable person who has been targeted by your son's friends, and maybe your son as well. Put your energy into making sure your son stays out of trouble rather than seeing him as a victim.


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## marty21 (Jun 28, 2018)

Edie said:


> I’m not a council tennant btw I own the house, but there are a lot of tenanted properties around me. So I don’t think they can threaten my house?


If you are a Freeholder they can do fuck all and pretty much the same as a leaseholder.


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## marty21 (Jun 28, 2018)

Athos said:


> Personally irritating for you and your son, no doubt.  And an example of an overreaching state acting arbitrarily with no regard for the principles of natural justice.  But, if it was me, I'd not waste too much time and energy to seriously challenge it.
> 
> All I'd do would be to send a recorded delivery letter explaining that, whilst I have no intention of visiting that address, I completely refute the allegation that I had caused a nuisance, and point out that the thinly veiled threat to the security of my housing situation amounts to an attempt to interfere with my right to a private life under article 8 of the ECHR, which, in the absence of any due process (i.e. an opportunity for me to dispute the allegation) is unlikely to be withstand any legal challenge.
> 
> ...


All the Closure Orders I have been involved with have been at a Magistrate's Court .


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## cupid_stunt (Jun 28, 2018)

Grump said:


> You say he hasn't been there, then you say he has, but didn't go in, and he was a friend of those who did go in. Why not just accept he was up to no good, even if he was only involved in a small way. The authorities are trying to protect a vulnerable person who has been targeted by your son's friends, and maybe your son as well. Put your energy into making sure your son stays out of trouble rather than seeing him as a victim.



How the fuck can you draw that conclusion? 

Besides, Edie said, that he hadn't been IN the flat, having a photo taken of him outside the flat doesn't change that.


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

Grump said:


> You say he hasn't been there, then you say he has, but didn't go in, and he was a friend of those who did go in. Why not just accept he was up to no good, even if he was only involved in a small way. The authorities are trying to protect a vulnerable person who has been targeted by your son's friends, and maybe your son as well. Put your energy into making sure your son stays out of trouble rather than seeing him as a victim.


Because he hasn’t! That isn’t the situation!


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## Athos (Jun 28, 2018)

Edie said:


> I’m not a council tennant btw I own the house, but there are a lot of tenanted properties around me. So I don’t think they can threaten my house?



Lol!  Fucking clowns!  They're threatening a tenancy you don't have?!  Ignore my last post, then!


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2018)

Edie said:


> I did ask what evidence they had when the police come round. Apparently it’s a police photograph of my son and his two new mates (not the bad lads) stood outside the flat. From approx two months ago. I asked my son about this and he said yeah they did go over but didn’t go in.
> 
> This is all making me anxious cos when he fell out with the bad lads last October it got pretty nasty. They were threatening to stab him and I was trying to take him up to school all the days I don’t work. They then started chucking shit at my house (eggs, stones etc) which I done my best to ignore.
> 
> ...


Shit Edie thay's bloody horrific having to live with all that.
Feels more like *you* should be sending threatening letters to the police and the council to insist they protect you and your family and sort these fucking people out rather than the other way around.


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## Athos (Jun 28, 2018)

marty21 said:


> All the Closure Orders I have been involved with have been at a Magistrate's Court .



Yeah, that was my understanding, but, considering the letter talks about a non- existent tenancy, the court point seems less surprising, now!


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2018)

It's just a blanket letter from someone at the council who cannot even be arsed to find out whether the properties actually are council properties or not. Feels like a sweeping judgement about all the kids on the street is being made. To be fair, the council employee in question probably doesn't have all the facts and probably doesn't have the time to do anything about getting them. Or just doesn't care.


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## marty21 (Jun 28, 2018)

They've probably served these orders on anyone with an association with the individuals responsible with only the slightest of evidence . I can't see it holding up to scrutiny .


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 28, 2018)

Methinks this kind of bullshit is what they do instead of actually dealing with anti social behaviour in a way that addressed actual causes, engaged with the people involved etc. 

It reads like it was written by a simple person who once read an actual legal notice and thought they'd have a crack at it.


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## Poot (Jun 28, 2018)

It might be worth explaining to your boy that their responsibility has to be with the vulnerable person, and that, as Marty says, they've used a pretty much scatter-gun approach that has no basis in anything but was probably intended to protect the vulnerable person with no thought for the actual law. I know it's massively frustrating, especially when he's doing alright. And I hope it doesn't make him feel persecuted. It's just a sticking plaster or at least an attempt at one.


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Methinks this kind of bullshit is what they do instead of actually dealing with anti social behaviour in a way that addressed actual causes, engaged with the people involved etc.
> 
> It reads like it was written by a simple person who once read an actual legal notice and thought they'd have a crack at it.


Yes - and given the situation that Edie is describing, how anyone thinks a letter like this will make the slightest difference to anything is an absolute fool!


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## marty21 (Jun 28, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Methinks this kind of bullshit is what they do instead of actually dealing with anti social behaviour in a way that addressed actual causes, engaged with the people involved etc.
> 
> It reads like it was written by a simple person who once read an actual legal notice and thought they'd have a crack at it.


Closure Orders can be very effective, I've been involved with a few . They involved dealers taking over a flat and dealing out if it . In one case the two tenants below had to deal with crack users coming in and out throughout the day and night and were terrified.


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 28, 2018)

marty21 said:


> Closure Orders can be very effective, I've been involved with a few . They involved dealers taking over a flat and dealing out if it . In one case the two tenants below had to deal with crack users coming in and out throughout the day and night and were terrified.



And had anyone actually been on the ground dealing with this they'd know who the dealers were and would target them. It's ridiculous how shit police etc are at dealing with these kind of scumbags, who unlike the wire etc pretty much just sit there on the doorstep blatantly selling drugs.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2018)

Edie said:


> I’m not a council tennant btw I own the house, but there are a lot of tenanted properties around me. So I don’t think they can threaten my house?


i'd write back to yer man, and consider copying it to either a councillor or the chief executive of the council (it's bloody hard to find out yer man's manager's name, there's a load of secrecy in local government). i would point out the numerous errors in the post, not least of which are that neither are you a tenant nor, if you were, would your son be a signatory to the tenancy agreement. i would mention the absence of evidence for their contention. i would submit, finally, that the validity of the substantive point the council are trying to make, namely banning your son from the other side of the road, would not stand up to legal scrutiny. i would then end, as Athos suggests, with a 'but i welcome genuine dialogue to resolve any remaining matters'.

i would also consider complaining to the police about their involvement in an activity which seems to be more scare tactics than any actual legal service of a properly authorised and completed form.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> And had anyone actually been on the ground dealing with this they'd know who the dealers were and would target them. It's ridiculous how shit police etc are at dealing with these kind of scumbags, who unlike the wire etc pretty much just sit there on the doorstep blatantly selling drugs.


tbh in the wire that's pretty much what they're doing, standing on street corners or in the estate where so much of the action takes place in series 1


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2018)

Mrs Miggins said:


> It's just a blanket letter from someone at the council who cannot even be arsed to find out whether the properties actually are council properties or not. Feels like a sweeping judgement about all the kids on the street is being made. To be fair, the council employee in question probably doesn't have all the facts and probably doesn't have the time to do anything about getting them. Or just doesn't care.


the laziness involved makes it less likely that the letters would be effective as 'everyone else has had one and nothing ever happens' is likely to be many people's response to them.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 28, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh in the wire that's pretty much what they're doing, standing on street corners or in the estate where so much of the action takes place in series 1


There is some two step biz. Give this man ur money, go around x corner to a a see another for your wmd


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> There is some two step biz. Give this man ur money, go around x corner to a a see another for your wmd


it's pretty fucking blatant mind


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

For the record I’ve not been seeing my son as a victim. I’ve told him he was in the wrong telling them to fuck off, I’ve told him he’s brought this trouble to our door (the attacks on the house) from his poor choice of mates and we’ve had scenes when he’s crying and saying sorry when we’re all hid up in my room. I’ve also told him to have nothing to do with any of it, including the youth workers they sent round. And except for the tyres which really actually scared me I’ve not said a word to the police.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2018)

Edie said:


> For the record I’ve not been seeing my son as a victim. I’ve told him he was in the wrong telling them to fuck off, I’ve told him he’s brought this trouble to our door (the attacks on the house) from his poor choice of mates and we’ve had scenes when he’s crying and saying sorry when we’re all hid up in my room. I’ve also told him to have nothing to do with any of it, including the youth workers they sent round. And except for the tyres which really actually scared me I’ve not said a word to the police.


perhaps you need to say to the council and the police that what they're trying to do is wrong and while you're happy to talk to them to resolve concerns the cackhanded way they're proceeding is offensive.

e2a: also what people have said below


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 28, 2018)

Edie said:


> For the record I’ve not been seeing my son as a victim. I’ve told him he was in the wrong telling them to fuck off, I’ve told him he’s brought this trouble to our door (the attacks on the house) from his poor choice of mates and we’ve had scenes when he’s crying and saying sorry when we’re all hid up in my room. I’ve also told him to have nothing to do with any of it, including the youth workers they sent round. And except for the tyres which really actually scared me I’ve not said a word to the police.



What has the latest attack against you/your property entailed?

I think you should be keeping a diary of all the incidents tbh Edie , your family is being harassed and you do not know how it may be escalated or not in the future.

If you can get hold of a couple of small cctv cameras put one front and back in the hope of catching the little shits doing it.

Unless that notice is going to jepordise your son's prospects in any way I would have good think about whether it's worth challenging it.

Guilty by association is shit but as your son does admit to being outside one of those properties at some point I can see why they have served it...even as a deterrent it makes sense to keep as many people as possible away from the cul de sac opposite you...I imagine other people living in that road have had a fucking shit time too.

Your priority is keeping yourself and the kids safe.


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## newbie (Jun 28, 2018)

Edie said:


> But now after that eviction someone’s put the hedge across the street up (big fire, dripping from the phone wires, two fire trucks). And they’ve started on at my house again, in my back garden. Obviously I’m a single Mum and honestly I try and not let it show (to the kids or to these fucking pricks) but it scares me. They’re not all 14/15. Some of them are men in their 20s or even a lot older



that's getting too serious.
I've got an infra red camera that will send me an email including pictures every time the motion detection triggers.  I've used it for hedgehogs in the garden and mice in the kitchen, but you have somewhat greater concerns.

I think what I've got (by Foscam, recommended) is obsolete but there's pages of similar on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dome-Cameras/b/ref=dp_bc_3?ie=UTF8&node=1330829031


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## JuanTwoThree (Jun 28, 2018)

I haven't become a lawyer in the meantime:

What tenancy agreement?  If there isn't one the whole thing is a bluff, or a mistake.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2018)

newbie said:


> that's getting too serious.
> I've got an infra red camera that will send me an email including pictures every time the motion detection triggers.  I've used it for hedgehogs in the garden and mice in the kitchen, but you have somewhat greater concerns.
> 
> I think what I've got (by Foscam, recommended) is obsolete but there's pages of similar on Amazon.
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dome-Cameras/b/ref=dp_bc_3?ie=UTF8&node=1330829031


you can get tiny ones cheaply e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07B8M89CX


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

Rutita1 its not really anything too bothering. It’s just annoying shit. 
Example: in my back garden, hoods up, looking through my back windows, I go out and tell them to fuck off.
Example at night: banging on the door
Example: chucking their rubbish over my front gate
Example: pulling over my bins

It’s nothing I can’t handle. I only get scared when weapons become involved (knives, air guns), ignore the damage (although it’s fucking annoying), and feel bloody grateful it’s not my kids _doing_ it.

The arson wasn’t aimed at me/us. It was the neighbour who’d been contacting the police about the dealing. Well, there were a group of neighbours who’d got pissed off and been helping the police, but he was one of the main ones. Good for them anyway.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 28, 2018)

Fair enough Edie , not saying you can't handle it although I still do think you should keep a record and think about monitoring who the fuck is doing it because my experience of situations like the one you describe is people get out of hand because they end up not knowing who they want to target and how much they should target someone in terms of revenge or just being grade A cunts.

Shit cunts that is. The ones that terrorise their neighbours for whatever reason. Fuck them.


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## Edie (Jun 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Fair enough Edie , not saying you can't handle it although I still do think you should keep a record and think about monitoring who the fuck is doing it because my experience of situations like the one you describe is people get out of hand because they end up not knowing who they want to target and how much they should target someone in terms of revenge or just being grade A cunts.
> 
> Shit cunts that is. The ones that terrorise their neighbours for whatever reason. Fuck them.


The ones actually directly targeting me are kids. 15, 16, 14. I know them all, I know their mums. They don’t (much) scare me. The biggest of them (in all senses) is a kid whose been in and out of care and whose mum is an alcoholic with a serious anger issue who hates me. I’ve nowt to do with her. The other two Mums and me have a working relationship. They’re both single mums too and I know they’re doing their best and I guess I think ‘there but for the grace of God’ cos if this is shit for me imagine how utterly _horrendous_ this must be for them.

A few weeks after my eldest fell out with them they got arrested at 3am for burglary. Sounds worse than what it was (they’d broken into an abandoned halls of residence and as they left picked up power tools). But they got done for it.

I spent the rest of the year literally thanking God I’d had my tyres done, it was seriously the best thing to happen in 2017 cos it *drew the line* under that shit for my eldest. He saw how shaken up I was, and there was no way he could go back to being mates with them.


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## marty21 (Jun 30, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> And had anyone actually been on the ground dealing with this they'd know who the dealers were and would target them. It's ridiculous how shit police etc are at dealing with these kind of scumbags, who unlike the wire etc pretty much just sit there on the doorstep blatantly selling drugs.


The closure orders I was involved were connected to the same dealer  , his mo was to get friendly with a customer , hang out with them , they got some product , and gradually he's using their place as an office . One tenant admitted to me that it got out of control and he was glad we got the Closure Order . The same dealer targeted a woman of nearly 60 (who tbh was a serious crackhead  ) I quite admire her in a way , still at it after 40 years in the game . She has been targeted in 4 different flats that I know of , we are still working with her (although she can be a bit elusive ) and trying to get her into supported accommodation.

I don't know why this particular dealer hasn't been caught and jailed but he is a clever fellah and doesn't get caught with the gear .


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## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

I think that’s exactly what went on over the street, some older dealer cunt using the flat of this kid. Then other kids hanging out there smoking weed, drinking and generally partying.

There was further bullshit last night. There was a car idling directly outside my house with a man sat in it. Older man, at least in his fourties. The scum grandson from next door went up to him at some point, then some kiddie kicking a ball (about 15) who I’d never seen before came and went a couple of times.

There was no drama really. But it still kept me awake, mainly cos it was hot so all the windows were open so the car engine kept me awake (seriously, hours he was there). And partly cos there were comings and goings til 1am and that shit makes me edgy.

I just want it to end


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 3, 2018)

(((Edie)))

Sounds shit, mate. If someone was doing that outside my house, I would be calling the cops, and asking them to do a drive pass, on the basis that I suspected drug dealing was going on.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 3, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sounds shit, mate. If someone was doing that outside my house, I would be calling the cops, and asking them to do a drive pass, on the basis that I suspected drug dealing was going on.



This really.  In the circumstances it seems the only option is to involve the police.

(((Edie)))


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## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

No way. Not worth it.

Benefit: some cop car drives past and he drives off.

Risk: the coppers say ‘a neighbour’ rung in, they know or think it’s me, shit happens.


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 3, 2018)

As much as you clearly love your house, the shit happening around it is stressing you out, I think you need to consider moving away from that shit, life is too short.


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## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> As much as you clearly love your house, the shit happening around it is stressing you out, I think you need to consider moving away from that shit, life is too short.


It’ll pass. It’s literally only been as bad as this for less than a year. It was quiet for the previous nine years!


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 3, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> As much as you clearly love your house, the shit happening around it is stressing you out, I think you need to consider moving away from that shit, life is too short.



If this is an option Edie its worth considering - its awful living in situations like that, and damaging to your health.


----------



## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

It’s the little cunt in his early 20s next door, my neighbours grandson. I swear he’s bringing this shit on us. I just hope he gets nicked soon.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 3, 2018)

Edie said:


> It’ll pass. It’s literally only been as bad as this for less than a year. It was quiet for the previous nine years!



Well, I hope it does pass, if it doesn't, at least you are in the position to make a move, unlike some that have no choice.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jul 3, 2018)

Edie said:


> It’s the little cunt in his early 20s next door, my neighbours grandson. I swear he’s bringing this shit on us. I just hope he gets nicked soon.



I've lived next to cunts - and in my case it only resolved after he got sent to Strangeways.  I was later told by the police that he was a member of a well-known crim family.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jul 3, 2018)

Edie said:


> I did ask what evidence they had when the police come round. Apparently it’s a police photograph of my son and his two new mates (not the bad lads) stood outside the flat. From approx two months ago. I asked my son about this and he said yeah they did go over but didn’t go in.
> 
> This is all making me anxious cos when he fell out with the bad lads last October it got pretty nasty. They were threatening to stab him and I was trying to take him up to school all the days I don’t work. They then started chucking shit at my house (eggs, stones etc) which I done my best to ignore.
> 
> ...



fucking hell, sounds like you need some prohibition notices dished out on your behalf


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 3, 2018)

Edie said:


> I can guarantee you my boy has not been there. I just know he hasn’t.



Very convincing.


----------



## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

cyril_smear said:


> Very convincing.


Off you fuck


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 3, 2018)

cyril_smear said:


> Very convincing.



Was you born a twat, or did you just grow into one?


----------



## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

Tbf it doesn’t sound massively convincing. So you will just have to take my word that I know my kids bettern you.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 3, 2018)

Edie said:


> Off you fuck


Soz.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 3, 2018)

Edie said:


> Tbf it doesn’t sound massively convincing. So you will just have to take my word that I know my kids bettern you.



You should have said "I know for a fact" instead.


----------



## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

cyril_smear said:


> You should have said "I know for a fact" instead.


That would of definitely been more convincing I’m sure you’re right. 

I do know for a fact he’s not smoking weed or doing drugs cos there’s absolutely no way he’d get that past me 

Anyway, quiet out tonight cos everyone watching the footie.


----------



## cyril_smear (Jul 3, 2018)

Have you thought about moving? I know that's drastic and you're letting these cunts win but do you really need all this?


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 3, 2018)

It's a big problem - they call it "cuckooing" a flat.  If the police are aware it's happening to this vulnerable lad, that's a bloody good thing, cos usually they don't know.  


Shit for your lad, Edie - but you must be so pleased/relieved that he fell out with them when he did.  Are these the "duck" boys?


----------



## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

I AM NOT MOVING because some little 15yo scrotes are fucking about! That’s insane. I own the house, I like my neighbours, I live by the park, I’m close to school. It’ll all simmer down.

Interestingly one of the other single mums IS moving back to Filey. One down.


----------



## Edie (Jul 3, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> It's a big problem - they call it "cuckooing" a flat.  If the police are aware it's happening to this vulnerable lad, that's a bloody good thing, cos usually they don't know.
> 
> 
> Shit for your lad, Edie - but you must be so pleased/relieved that he fell out with them when he did.  Are these the "duck" boys?


Yeah the decapitated duck boys.


----------



## campanula (Jul 4, 2018)

hugs Edie (we have one round here too). Fortunately, these nasty little fuckwits do tend to shit on their own doorsteps (it's what they know, I think) but, as you also note, this is a cyclical thing. Currently, our neughbourhood thief and bully is out of nick...but it will only be a matter of time before he is back inside...and as he has robbed nearly everyone, he has no support (even though grassing is beyond the pale)...he won't be at large much longer.
Those pics of children suffering from foetal alcohol syndrome - fits our scumbag to a tee...so am caught between feeling sorry for him (cos his life is really demarcated now and it isn't a good one)...and wanting to run the fucker over in the pick-up (can't drive though so...).
Chin up - this will pass.
Oh, ignore the council stuff - just a cover your arse letter - no real power to do anything.


----------



## Edie (Jul 4, 2018)

Ta campanula xx


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Anyone know anything about gangs? I was cleaning yesterday and found a balaclava in my eldests room. I’m pretty sure this is all just for show shite. But I looked up some of his mates fb (he doesn’t have fb anymore just insta and snap). These are two of my eldests mates (not best mates but kids that have hung out here and across the street, the kid at the bottom I’ve known since he was 3, lives three doors up). Both pics liked by my eldest. I’m worried about the hand sign? I’ve tried to protect their anonymity (although the pics are just online anyway).


----------



## marty21 (Jul 20, 2018)

I have had dealings with the local authority gang unit . We had to move a family because the teenage son got involved with and fell out with a gang . There was a lot of discussion about where in the borough we could place them , and the gang unit had what seemed to me , excellent information about gang areas , what gangs got on , what didn't.  Whether your affiliation with a particular gang would go down well or not with other gangs . The most knowledgeable person at the meeting was a well spoken woman in her 30s which seemed bizarre to me and slightly comical .


----------



## ffsear (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> Anyone know anything about gangs? I was cleaning yesterday and found a balaclava in my eldests room. I’m pretty sure this is all just for show shite. But I looked up some of his mates fb (he doesn’t have fb anymore just insta and snap). These are two of my eldests mates (not best mates but kids that have hung out here and across the street, the kid at the bottom I’ve known since he was 3, lives three doors up). Both pics liked by my eldest. I’m worried about the hand sign? I’ve tried to protect their anonymity (although the pics are just online anyway).
> View attachment 141694
> View attachment 141695



Looks relatively innocent to me.  Just kids being kids


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## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

I know literally nothing. Are hand signs a thing? I honestly thought that was American stuff. Is this kids just messing about? I’m fucking stressing out cos it’s summer holidays, I’ll be working 10 hours a day and my son will be left to his own devices. I don’t want devices to include gangs.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

ffsear said:


> Looks relatively innocent to me.  Just kids being kids


I know right. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t comment gang gang if yknow it was actually a gang?


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 20, 2018)

It does look like a gang sign, you could check with the school's police liaison or similar.   It might be for show, but might not so it's worth noticing.   

I'd want to know where the balaclava has come from and why.

If he's attracted to the idea of gangs, a quick reality check about the exploitative nature of how "youngers" are treated, (all the risks of police and violence, comparatively very little of the reward); and how youngers are kept in line if they try to leave (violence against families) - together with an unvarnished rundown of gang activities (google "county lines"; systematic gang rape to coerce and punish young girls; cuckooing (which you know about)...  it's hard to glamourise gangs if you're well informed.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

spanglechick i guess I’m now worrying that this bollocks we’ve been having against us (the window shot by the air gun, the tyres etc) is actually gang related? Or is that just paranoid af?


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Neither of those kiddies goes to my sons school both have been permanently excluded for fighting so I’m not sure school will be that helpful. Plus my son would kill me.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 20, 2018)

marty21 said:


> I have had dealings with the local authority gang unit . We had to move a family because the teenage son got involved with and fell out with a gang . There was a lot of discussion about where in the borough we could place them , and the gang unit had what seemed to me , excellent information about gang areas , what gangs got on , what didn't.  Whether your affiliation with a particular gang would go down well or not with other gangs . The most knowledgeable person at the meeting was a well spoken woman in her 30s which seemed bizarre to me and slightly comical .


One of our students had to finish the term early due to a very credible threat that he was going to be stabbed by a rival gang member.  Sweet-seeming lad, 15, bit lazy but never really in trouble at school... apparently he and a mate (who is in a gang) stole this rival gang member's car and crashed it.  They know his school and where he lives.  It's scary.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> Neither of those kiddies goes to my sons school both have been permanently excluded for fighting so I’m not sure school will be that helpful. Plus my son would kill me.


I meant more in terms of that would be a police officer who would know the local gangs and gang signs.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> spanglechick i guess I’m now worrying that this bollocks we’ve been having against us (the window shot by the air gun, the tyres etc) is actually gang related? Or is that just paranoid af?


The cuckooing of the special needs person's flat that started it all off, that's definitely a gang at work.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

I’m reassuring myself that this in Leeds not London. I don’t honestly think Leeds has a gang problem? LynnDoyleCooper has kid similar age in adjacent neighbourhood?


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> The cuckooing of the special needs person's flat that started it all off, that's definitely a gang at work.


It’s hard to know the extent to which that was just kids hanging out and how much was organised dealing though. The older men in cars worry me as that’s not ‘just kids’.

Edit to remove race reference so I don’t appear a massive racist


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> I meant more in terms of that would be a police officer who would know the local gangs and gang signs.


I know him quite well (  ) and I’m about to go to Asda next to school so will look out for him for ‘informal chat’.


----------



## JimW (Jul 20, 2018)

Pretty sure I got a balaclava to play at being hard at around your sons age but different times and not the same sort of gang problem (our gangs still built tree houses).


----------



## Red Cat (Jul 20, 2018)

campanula said:


> hugs Edie (we have one round here too). Fortunately, these nasty little fuckwits do tend to shit on their own doorsteps (it's what they know, I think) but, as you also note, this is a cyclical thing. Currently, our neughbourhood thief and bully is out of nick...but it will only be a matter of time before he is back inside...and as he has robbed nearly everyone, he has no support (even though grassing is beyond the pale)...he won't be at large much longer.
> Those pics of children suffering from foetal alcohol syndrome - fits our scumbag to a tee...so am caught between feeling sorry for him (cos his life is really demarcated now and it isn't a good one)...and wanting to run the fucker over in the pick-up (can't drive though so...).
> Chin up - this will pass.
> Oh, ignore the council stuff - just a cover your arse letter - no real power to do anything.



Some of the children I work with have FAS. One of my supervisors believes that a very high proportion of people in prison are likely to do so.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> I’m reassuring myself that this in Leeds not London. I don’t honestly think Leeds has a gang problem? LynnDoyleCooper has kid similar age in adjacent neighbourhood?




So, Leeds is one of the focal areas for the "Ending Gang and Youth Violence" initiative.  Of course it's more serious in London, but the County Lines phenomenon is making the gangs in regional cities much more serious as they are falling into the structure and m.o. of the London gangs.


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## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

That is not especially reassuring


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Although spanglechick thanks for the info cos clearly you do know your stuff and a lot more than me x


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 20, 2018)

Im genuinely not trying to be over scary.  But it could potentially be a nasty problem.   Being well informed is the best defence, I think.  


This is good info on County Lines http://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov....olence-exploitation-and-drug-supply-2017/file


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## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

I’ll tell you what makes me really fucking angry are the adults involved in this shit. Kids will be kids and especially young lads it’s all about your reputation, looking hard etc. But the adults who take advantage of that, even if that’s just by being fuckin wastemen and hanging out or dealing a bit of smoke like my neighbours son in his early 20s ffs, let alone the much older ones in cars. They enrage me. I seriously want to go out there and confront the fucking pieces of shit and go wtf are you _doing_ with a 14yo or 15yo in your car?! Get away from my house, don’t come near my son. Proper mother rage.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jul 20, 2018)

Are there' any youth workers in your area or attached to the school?  spanglechick 's advice about being informed is useful


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie, regarding those pics...those two may or may not be involved with gang activity in the larger sense. The whole hardman, hand signs pics are a pretty common example of the macho bravado that young men especially get into. Gangs can though start with a few good mates getting into criminal activity together and then plugging into other networks or similar.

That said, they are excluded from school and are more likely to be getting involved with day to day nonsense. spanglechick pointed out, the taking over of the vulnerable person's flat is a real example of 'cuckooing' and a well known gang tactic.

Have you spoken to your boy about the balaclava?

The older guys sound like a worry tbh. I fucking hate adults that do this.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

I’ve not had the conversation (row) about the balaclava yet because we are all so utterly knackered at the end of term it would just kick off straight away. Thought I’d wait til school was finished.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 20, 2018)

I had a balaclava as a child too, never involved in gang stuff

some stuff on the county lines for info
The children forced to sell drugs
https://www.fearless.org/en/campaigns/county-lines


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

ddraig said:


> I had a balaclava as a child too, never involved in gang stuff
> 
> some stuff on the county lines for info
> The children forced to sell drugs
> https://www.fearless.org/en/campaigns/county-lines


_Why_ did you have a balaclava though? Just to look hard as a teenager?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> _Why_ did you have a balaclava though? Just to look hard as a teenager?


think so 
was quite young not sure if teenager, remember getting dragged by teacher down corridor of school by it after putting it on in class


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> Anyone know anything about gangs? I was cleaning yesterday and found a balaclava in my eldests room. *I’m pretty sure this is all just for show shite.* But I looked up some of his mates fb (he doesn’t have fb anymore just insta and snap). These are two of my eldests mates (not best mates but kids that have hung out here and across the street, the kid at the bottom I’ve known since he was 3, lives three doors up). Both pics liked by my eldest. I’m worried about the hand sign? I’ve tried to protect their anonymity (although the pics are just online anyway).
> View attachment 141694
> View attachment 141695



A lot of gang stuff is just for show. Including stabbing someone to show your mates how hard you are.


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## spanglechick (Jul 20, 2018)

The thing is that teenagers who play around at gang signs and so on, who glamourise the gang lifestyle... they're easy to recruit.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Everything glamorises the gang lifestyle. All the music they listen to, the clothes they wear (givency fucking sliders I’m looking at you), the way they talk. And I’m certain that almost all of it is front, that it’s just how it is being a lad that age in the city. But it does my head in. My boys mates are actually nice lads, they say hullo and goodbye, they are polite and respectful, really nice lads. But close the bedroom door and the music goes on or out they all troop with their overpriced clothes and brand new attitude and there is just a bit of me which worries. Five of their mates got killed in a stolen car last summer, three others have been done for burglary. You just have to pray it’s not your boy. The good thing is the last year he *has* been really sensible, no more exclusions, not staying out, not a single bit of trouble with the police (and I don’t count the fake ASBO). So I think you just have to trust in yourself and your kid.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> My boys mates are actually nice lads, they say hullo and goodbye, *they are polite and respectful*, really nice lads.



That's how a lot of people described Ronnie and Reggie Kray.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2018)

.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Have you got a teenage son Saul Goodman? Any actual experience or advice to give about this kind of stuff? Otherwise...


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> Have you got a teenage son Saul Goodman? Any actual experience or advice to give about this kind of stuff? Otherwise...


I *WAS* a teenager around some of the roughest parts of Manchester, so I have plenty of *ACTUAL* experience.
Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't mean it isn't true.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 20, 2018)

Wow  five killed...thats awful. I can imagine you're worried. For some absolutely absurd reason /luck/whatever... My three boys (29, 25 and 24) sort of managed to steer clear of gangs. The eldest was a bit of trouble but always had common sense and good values to balance it out. 

Having worked as a youth worker for many years, I'd really suggest picking your battles. It's been my experience that the more you give a young person to kick against the harder they will kick.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I *WAS* a teenager around some of the roughest parts of Manchester, so I have plenty of *ACTUAL* experience.
> Just because you don't want to hear it, doesn't mean it isn't true.


And your ACTUAL experience has led you to compare teenage lads being polite to their mates mum to the Kray brothers. Right.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> And your ACTUAL experience has led you to compare teenage lads being polite to their mates mum to the Kray brothers. Right.


No, it made me realise that being polite and being a gangster aren't mutually exclusive. Something you appear to be at odds with.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

ice-is-forming said:


> Wow  five killed...thats awful. I can imagine you're worried. For some absolutely absurd reason /luck/whatever... My three boys (29, 25 and 24) sort of managed to steer clear of gangs. The eldest was a bit of trouble but always had common sense and good values to balance it out.
> 
> Having worked as a youth worker for many years, I'd really suggest picking your battles. It's been my experience that the more you give a young person to kick against the harder they will kick.


ice-is-forming it was dreadful
Who were the five killed in the Leeds car crash, where is Meanwood and what's the latest?


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> No, it made me realise that being polite and being a gangster aren't mutually exclusive. Something you appear to be at odds with.


I’ve no opinion on whether organised crime gang members from the 1960s in London who tortured people were polite. I don’t give a shit.

As a mum though I can spot a good lad from a bad example. Stuff like do they go to school, do their mums care where they are, do they have aspirations, are they respectful. This stuffs important.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> ice-is-forming it was dreadful
> Who were the five killed in the Leeds car crash, where is Meanwood and what's the latest?



Oh that's just awful  I don't know if it's a generational thing or not, and not being in the UK can't make a proper guess based on my experience. But I often feel that there was a moment in time when life for young people changed beyond anything we'd experienced or seen before...and I feel blessed that my kids just seemed to have not been apart of this. But only just... It must be so hard Edie x


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> I’ve no opinion on whether organised crime gang members from the 1960s in London who tortured people were polite. I don’t give a shit.
> 
> As a mum though I can spot a good lad from a bad example. Stuff like do they go to school, do their mums care where they are, do they have aspirations, are they respectful. This stuffs important.


I went to school. My mother cared where I was. I had aspirations... But I was still a cunt.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> I’ve no opinion on whether organised crime gang members from the 1960s in London who tortured people were polite. I don’t give a shit.
> 
> *As a mum though I can spot a good lad from a bad example.* Stuff like do they go to school, do their mums care where they are, do they have aspirations, are they respectful. This stuffs important.



And this bit is absolute nonsense! Mothers (parents) are the least likely people on the planet to know what their (or other people's) kids are up to. And the first to believe their child would do no wrong.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> And this bit is absolute nonsense! Mothers (parents) are the least likely people on the planet to know what their (or other people's) kids are up to. And the first to believe their child would do no wrong.


Are you absolutely 100% sure for certain that your contributions are helpful? For certain?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

5t3IIa said:


> Are you absolutely 100% sure for certain that your contributions are helpful? For certain?


I'm absolutely sure that telling the truth is more helpful than not telling the truth.
If all people want is an ego-stroking session, that's fine, but it isn't going to fix anything.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm absolutely sure that telling the truth is more helpful than not telling the truth.
> If all people want is an ego-stroking session, that's fine, but it isn't going to fix anything.


Aight, big man


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> And this bit is absolute nonsense! Mothers (parents) are the least likely people on the planet to know what their (or other people's) kids are up to. And the first to believe their child would do no wrong.



Oh give over. Sure some are blind to this stuff but the majority aren't. Edie having faith in her kid doesn't make her dumb or mean she's got her head in the sand. Anything being possible doesn't mean it's actually happening afterall.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> And this bit is absolute nonsense! Mothers (parents) are the least likely people on the planet to know what their (or other people's) kids are up to. And the first to believe their child would do no wrong.



Your wrong in this, maybe your just generalising based on your own experiences. But in mine and many other situations I know of your take on it doesn't fit,  as inconvenient as that may be...


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> And this bit is absolute nonsense! Mothers (parents) are the least likely people on the planet to know what their (or other people's) kids are up to. And the first to believe their child would do no wrong.


Bollocks. You know nothing. I might not know every single thing my boys do but believe me I have a pretty good idea when they’re getting into trouble.

Also laughing at the thought I’d believe my kids could do no wrong. That is far from the truth. I’m on first name terms with the school copper and the local pcso ffs


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

5t3IIa said:


> Are you absolutely 100% sure for certain that your contributions are helpful? For certain?


This made me laugh


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh give over. Sure some are blind to this stuff but the majority aren't. Edie having faith in her kid doesn't make her dumb or mean she's got her head in the sand. Anything being possible doesn't mean it's actually happening afterall.





ice-is-forming said:


> Your wrong in this, maybe your just generalising based on your own experiences. But in mine and many other situations I know of your take on it doesn't fit,  as inconvenient as that may be...





Edie said:


> Bollocks. You know nothing. I might not know every single thing my boys do but believe me I have a pretty good idea when they’re getting into trouble.



So my experience (and pretty much everyone around me at the time) of being a complete cunt as a kid, and my parents not knowing I was a complete cunt, is trumped by your 'But I'm a parent' spiel?  
If criminals are getting caught by their mothers, they're not very good criminals


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> So my experience (and pretty much everyone around me at the time) of being a complete cunt as a kid, and my parents not knowing I was a complete cunt, is trumped by your 'But I'm a parent' spiel?
> If criminals are getting caught by their mothers, they're not very good criminals



I hear you but it's not been my experience with my four kids.

I was a horrible teenager and it was only retrospectivly that I realised I had snuck nothing past my parents...they just didn't know how to manage it or challenge me

Personally my kids never got caught being criminal..but that wasn't luck it was education, and that only happened because I knew what they were up to...


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> So my experience (and pretty much everyone around me at the time) of being a complete cunt as a kid, and my parents not knowing I was a complete cunt, is trumped by your 'But I'm a parent' spiel?
> If criminals are getting caught by their mothers, they're not very good criminals


Yeah except my kids aren’t criminals, and they are getting busted by their mum.


----------



## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman what criminal shit did you do out of interest? Are we talking about smoking a bit of weed with your mates, or robbery, or dealing, or burglary? Was it gang related crime or just you?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> So my experience (and pretty much everyone around me at the time) of being a complete cunt as a kid, and my parents not knowing I was a complete cunt, is trumped by your 'But I'm a parent' spiel?
> If criminals are getting caught by their mothers, they're not very good criminals



Again, COME THE FUCK OFF IT  ...your experiences are of course valid. I have a younger brother who sounds just like you and am not under any illusions as to the absolute god awful shit mothers/families will put up with and cover up for. That doesn't mean you are right this time....just because it could be happening doesn't mean it is was my point. You are so very certain though, which is odd.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jul 20, 2018)

I'm working in a school where there are teenagers "involved" in gangs. And  also there are teenagers that get mixed up with gangs because they know no better.  There is a distinction. But the end result is someone gets in trouble with the law...And/or someone gets hurt or worse dead.

I've had conferences with parents where I've all but straight out told them that their son/daughter was heading for trouble because of who they were associating with.  I've gone so far as to warn parents that their son/daughter is mixing with someone who will absolutely be the cause of trouble for them and their kid...And yet the parents muddle along and decide "oh but they're friends and my Johnny likes having this friend and sure what could go wrong?" And I absolutely hate knowing that I was right when they come back a year later saying why didn't we listen?

There are parents who watch their own kids like hawks and don't miss a trick. They keep a tight enough rein on their kids and know exactly where they are and what they're doing at all times. They check and double check and triple check. They are not afraid to be very tough with their kids. 

Then there the parents who decide that because their kid is 15 he/she can be more independent. This independence isn't about doing their own washing...nope...it's greater social freedom and getting handed a phone so they can check in every hour. But what goes on isn't always clear and where they are isn't always clear either....And if the kid tells a porkie about where they are and gets away with it they will do it again.  These are the more vulnerable kids in terms of possibly positioning themselves in the way of joining in with what some would call the "wrong crowd". It depends very much on the kid themselves and their personality and their strength of character whether they get involved or have the courage to pull away. This is where home support is vital to encourage them at all times to talk openly and to listen to guidance. Unfortunately teenagers develop strong loyalties to groups and friends. It's very natural but it can be really devastating when a kid is told they have to drop their friends because they're part of  gang. They know them as friends and find it hard to desert their friends. This is where their personal strength has to come into play. Teenagers who can stand up and walk away from trouble need to be really very strong characters and not care what the "gang" will think. Quite frankly if they are that strong then they wouldn't be involved in the first place. So it's a very very difficult thing to get out of a teenage gang...especially if you see the gang members on a daily basis. 

Then there's another group whose parents couldn't really care where their kids are or what they're doing and so long as they don't turn up in the back of a police car everything is grand... these kids are also much more likely to get involved in teenage gangs.

In my experience...kids actively involved in gangs are not monitored accurately or consistently by their parents.
I'll give you an example. A 16yr old out til 12 And sometimes later  every night. Comes to school tired...hung over...doped on pot...can't function in school. So parent is called in.  Parent makes excuses..."I'm working til 9pm every night." "He steals my keys/ drink/cigarettes/ etc.."
" I give him 5 cigarettes a day if he does his homework"...or .."to keep him quiet"..."i don't know how to control him" ..."sometimes I'm afraid of him"..."he attacked a few shop fronts with his friends"..."they're not bad kids they just have nothing to do"...."he's been arrested twice but it wasn't his fault"..."he hit a garda but he was drunk and didn't mean to"...."he won't do any study for me....I send him up to his room to work but then I find out he has climbed out the window and is off with his friends". "his friends are nice lads"... "two of them have asbos but they're ok kids".
When asked what sanctions the parent imposed? "I don't have time...I'm working". And then because the parent was called in to meet the teacher the kid is annoyed..so what does the parent do to quieten him down? Goes off and buys him the most expensive pair of sneakers they can afford...because "I'll do anything for my son"..bar actually discipline him and impose some sanctions.


From what I have read of Edie's posts you're a careful parent  and you monitor where your son is and what he is doing.
 I would say that there really is only one solution but it won't be what you want to hear. It is to get him away from anyone close to gangs. By that I mean he has to completely stop all involvement...friendships...with anyone associated with a whiff of a gang. It looks like this is what has doing. 
That's a really difficult thing to do.. But you and he seem serious about wanting change for him then that's what has to be done. He needs to get involved in groups that are not gang related. The idea of just hanging around is one of the things he will have to stop doing. Maybe if he could get involved in sports or after school programmes that would help....maybe programming?....or languages...or music....anything that adds to his learning and keeps him in a group thats much less likely to turn into a gang.


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## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Again, COME THE FUCK OFF IT  ...your experiences are of course valid. I have a younger brother who sounds just like you and am not under any illusions as to the absolute god awful shit mothers/families will put up with and cover up for. That doesn't mean you are right this time....just because it could be happening doesn't mean it is was my point. You are so very certain though, which is odd.


All I'm certain of is that children who are up to no good can be very good at hiding it from their parents. I grew up with a lot of these people around me, and their parents didn't have a clue what they were up to. 
Parents can be extremely gullible when it comes to their own kids.


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## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> Saul Goodman what criminal shit did you do out of interest? Are we talking about smoking a bit of weed with your mates, or robbery, or dealing, or burglary? Was it gang related crime or just you?


I'd rather not go into it, TBH. It's part of my past that I'd rather leave behind, but suffice to say, it was things I wouldn't have wanted my parents to know about... so they didn't know about any of it. Including things that were happening literally under their nose.


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## planetgeli (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> so they didn't know about any of it. Including things that were happening literally under their nose.



You were their coke dealer but they didn't know and I claim my free gram.


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## planetgeli (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> I know literally nothing. Are hand signs a thing?



Am I missing something? They're flipping the finger. "Fuck off/fuck you". I see this about 100 times a day. Admittedly I work with junior gangsters but...


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 20, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> All I'm certain of is that children who are up to no good can be very good at hiding it from their parents. I grew up with a lot of these people around me, and their parents didn't have a clue what they were up to.
> Parents can be extremely gullible when it comes to their own kids.


That's what I said. Regardless it doesn't mean Edie is being gullible here.


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## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Am I missing something? They're flipping the finger. "Fuck off/fuck you". I see this about 100 times a day. Admittedly I work with junior gangsters but...


I don’t know I am a middle aged mum 

PippinTook thanks for that hun. I have to say I’m not a mum who follows their every move like a hawk. He’ll quite often be out for hours on end (like 1pm when he gets his lazy arse out of bed til 10 at night). But I do check in, and I know roughly what the plan is, like I’m going out with Na’choy or I’m going to town then round Lavelle’s nans. He’s very good at getting home on time and has been out til midnight but only once or twice and I’ve known _exactly_ where he was.

My biggest concern is the summer holidays. I’m working a 48+ hour week and he’ll be left to his own devices cos there is no other option (he can’t go to his Dads due to social services and his Nan and me, my exes mum, don’t get on now after all the child protection stuff). So yeah I worry about that. 

On the positive he’s got a job at the local pub for a fiver an hour and works 4.30-12.30 three nights a week over the summer. So that’ll keep him out of trouble to some extent (plus I’m proud of him for grafting).


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## planetgeli (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> I don’t know I am a middle aged mum



Er, you didn't look that middle-aged on the last pics you put on here.


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## Baronage-Phase (Jul 20, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Am I missing something? They're flipping the finger. "Fuck off/fuck you". I see this about 100 times a day. Admittedly I work with junior gangsters but...



Yep. They all do it. It's to look cool..or hard...or gangsta. Most of them know it's all an act. But there are some who are hard as nails and mean it


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## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Er, you didn't look that middle-aged on the last pics you put on here.


Well I’m old enough to have a 15yo


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## Edie (Jul 20, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Am I missing something? They're flipping the finger. "Fuck off/fuck you". I see this about 100 times a day. Admittedly I work with junior gangsters but...


Do you work at a pupil referral unit? If so then one these lads goes there, the other had a managed move.


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## planetgeli (Jul 20, 2018)

Edie said:


> Do you work at a pupil referral unit? If so then one these lads goes there, the other had a managed move.



Yep. PRU.


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## Saul Goodman (Jul 20, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> You were their coke dealer but they didn't know and I claim my free gram.





Rutita1 said:


> That's what I said. *Regardless it doesn't mean Edie is being gullible here.*


Of course it doesn't. I wasn't pointing fingers in that statement..


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