# Hatboy's letter in Evening Standard



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 2, 2005)

Not sure if there is a link for it anywhere, but it's about the drug problems and St Agnes Place eviction.
Anyone else seen it?


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## Donna Ferentes (Dec 2, 2005)

No, but here's a funny thing - the _Standard_ phoned me up yesterday and asked if I'd like to write them a letter on the subject of policing in Brixton. I said I no longer lived in Brixton or indeed in Lambeth and didn't read the _Standard_ ...


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 2, 2005)

Blimey, he's been busy! He's got an article about the yuppification of Brixton in this month's New Internationalist and all...turning into a regular little Keith Flett isn't he?


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## bluestreak (Dec 2, 2005)

i always thought keith flett was the name of a group of letter writers, kind of like italian anarchists all call themselves luther blissett.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 2, 2005)

No, he's a real person because I met him at an Index on Censorship thang that Sheena McDonald was chairing at the Ritzy a few years ago (unless he was an imposter, of course).


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## rednblack (Dec 2, 2005)

if he was a chubby bloke with a beard it was keith, he drinks in my local


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## editor (Dec 2, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Blimey, he's been busy! He's got an article about the yuppification of Brixton in this month's New Internationalist and all...turning into a regular little Keith Flett isn't he?


Glad to see him putting his considerable energies to constructive use.

Mind you, we've seen how desperate the Standard is for letters here!


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## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Glad to see him putting his considerable energies to constructive use.
> 
> Mind you, we've seen how desperate the Standard is for letters here!


some years ago, i encountered a senior standard journo. the chat turned to the letters page, and i was told that on occasion they made them up.

although i hope that that insidious practice has now ceased, it does indicate that they're not exactly flooded with correspondence.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2005)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> i always thought keith flett was the name of a group of letter writers, kind of like italian anarchists all call themselves luther blissett.


no, he's a big cheese (or a cheese, at any rate) in the world of socialist history.


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## Belushi (Dec 2, 2005)

Anyone got a link to Hatboys letter?


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## Stobart Stopper (Dec 2, 2005)

I can't find a link, checked TIL site but they don't put the letters on there.


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## Kid_Eternity (Dec 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> although i hope that that insidious practice has now ceased, it does indicate that they're not exactly flooded with correspondence.



Or they just get letters they don't want published...well done to HB though.


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## pooka (Dec 2, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Not sure if there is a link for it anywhere, but it's about the drug problems and St Agnes Place eviction.
> Anyone else seen it?



Good for hatboy...what did he have to say?


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## Stobart Stopper (Dec 2, 2005)

pooka said:
			
		

> Good for hatboy...what did he have to say?


You will have to go and buy it!


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## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> You will have to go and buy it!


is it 20p today?


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## bluestreak (Dec 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> no, he's a big cheese (or a cheese, at any rate) in the world of socialist history.



and there was me thinking he was just an unemployed leftie with too much time on his hands.


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## Stobart Stopper (Dec 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> is it 20p today?


No, 40p I'm afraid, you tight bastard, anyway it's too long for me to type up and I am not sure it's allowed anyway, they could do the Editor for copyright I think.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 2, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> No, but here's a funny thing - the _Standard_ phoned me up yesterday and asked if I'd like to write them a letter on the subject of policing in Brixton. I said I no longer lived in Brixton or indeed in Lambeth and didn't read the _Standard_ ...


That is a funny thing indeed - they could do it themselves. Surely the _Evening (sub) Standard_ are quite talented in making stuff up, since they do it every single day?


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## WasGeri (Dec 2, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> some years ago, i encountered a senior standard journo. the chat turned to the letters page, and i was told that on occasion they made them up.



I had the opposite - a letter I'd written got turned into a full blown article! It made it sound like they had interviewed me.


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## Streathamite (Dec 2, 2005)

I have the _standard,_ and will type the whole thing up here, when i have time, prolly tomorrow as I have a zillion CVs to look at and techies to torture etc.


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## dogmatique (Dec 2, 2005)




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## bluestreak (Dec 2, 2005)

it's a good letter.  makes sense.


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## zenie (Dec 2, 2005)

Yes indeed a good letter - seems like he's doing things right for a change as I only ever heard bad stuff about him on here 

I take it there's no comment on it though?


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## Donna Ferentes (Dec 2, 2005)

The other letter is appalling.


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## Fruitloop (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, pity about that...

"Black people stole our lunch money!"


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## rennie (Dec 2, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> The other letter is appalling.



indeed.


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## zenie (Dec 2, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> The other letter is appalling.



But they do live in Dulwich


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 2, 2005)

Hatboy again! How the fuck did one person manage to offend so many people?!


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## Streathamite (Dec 2, 2005)

zenie said:
			
		

> Yes indeed a good letter - seems like he's doing things right for a change as I only ever heard bad stuff about him on here
> 
> I take it there's no comment on it though?


he also did a lot of good stuff here once, and started The Thread Which Made U75 (briefly) Famous - see 'guns/crack/brixton etc'


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## aurora green (Dec 2, 2005)

It's a brilliant letter. Well done Hatboy!


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## Blagsta (Dec 2, 2005)

He has an article on the IWCA website too.  Good on him.


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## Bob (Dec 2, 2005)

Imperialist?    Err lets see:


> _*Originally written by Wikipedia*_
> Imperialism is a policy of extending control or authority over foreign entities as a means of acquisition and/or maintenance of empires, either through direct territorial conquest or through indirect methods of exerting control on the politics and/or economy of other countries. The term is often used to describe the policy of a country in maintaining colonies and dominance over distant lands, regardless of whether the country calls itself an empire.
> 
> Insofar as 'imperialism' might be used to refer to an intellectual position, it would imply the belief that the acquisition and maintenance of empires is a positive good, probably combined with an assumption of cultural or other such superiority inherent to imperial power. See The White Man's Burden.
> ...



Not so sure about that.


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## innit (Dec 2, 2005)

Am I the only person who didn't think it was a very good letter?  Maybe as a man, Hatboy can't appreciate that women might actually feel threatened or frightened by being approached by men lurking in the shadows late at night, rather than inconvenienced.  I also think it is rather moot to claim that 'professionals' would be the only people who might rather not be offered drugs on the street.  He seems to conflate the issues of street dealing and St Agnes Place very conveniently... personally I don't think that arresting street drug dealers is an assault on difference or diversity (Political Correctness gone mad?  )


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## Ms T (Dec 2, 2005)

innit said:
			
		

> Am I the only person who didn't think it was a very good letter?  Maybe as a man, Hatboy can't appreciate that women might actually feel threatened or frightened by being approached by men lurking in the shadows late at night, rather than inconvenienced.  I also think it is rather moot to claim that 'professionals' would be the only people who might rather not be offered drugs on the street.  He seems to conflate the issues of street dealing and St Agnes Place very conveniently... personally I don't think that arresting street drug dealers is an assault on difference or diversity (Political Correctness gone mad?  )



I agree.  And there are plenty of people on the boards who are far from being NIMBYs or "yuppies" who are saying that the drug dealing problem is out of control at the moment.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 2, 2005)

innit said:
			
		

> Am I the only person who didn't think it was a very good letter?  Maybe as a man, Hatboy can't appreciate that women might actually feel threatened or frightened by being approached by men lurking in the shadows late at night, rather than inconvenienced.


This was something that I pointed out to him quite a while ago actually. He's a tall man with a deep voice and didn't really grasp that a woman can be both intimidated and indeed actively harrassed by a lot of the dealers, as indeed I have been, as have my children. I think he thought it was down to my attitude and unwillingness to engage.


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## tarannau (Dec 2, 2005)

Ms T said:
			
		

> I agree.  And there are plenty of people on the boards who are far from being NIMBYs or "yuppies" who are saying that the drug dealing problem is out of control at the moment.



To be fair, there are also plenty of people who don't think that the problem has escalated that much - in many ways, on the side streets at least, it's much the same crews that I've seen for many, many years in the same place. Which is perhaps why I objected so strongly to ERG's and the anti Brighton Terrace centre folks for their near hysterical hyperbole about the sutuation. Guff like _there's now a needle disposal box, so our kids aren't safe any more..._ 

The exception, for me at least, is the centre, where those annoying whistling tossers seem to be growing ever more prominent and blatant. And to be honest those guys aren't exactly lurking in the shadows - they're far too much in your face for my liking.


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## Ms T (Dec 2, 2005)

tarannau said:
			
		

> To be fair, there are also plenty of people who don't think that the problem has escalated that much - in many ways, on the side streets at least, it's much the same crews that I've seen for many, many years in the same place. Which is perhaps why I objected so strongly to ERG's and the anti Brighton Terrace centre folks for their near hysterical hyperbole about the sutuation. Guff like _there's now a needle disposal box, so our kids aren't safe any more..._
> 
> The exception, for me at least, is the centre, where those annoying whistling tossers seem to be growing ever more prominent and blatant. And to be honest those guys aren't exactly lurking in the shadows - they're far too much in your face for my liking.



Fair enough.  I'm thinking mainly of the residents of Rushcroft Rd, whose lives are being made a misery by drug dealers and crack addicts.  I live out in the sticks of SE24 now (  ), but on the occasions when I've been to the Ritzy and walked home via Saltoun, I've been struck by the number of dealers who emerge from the shadows to see if you're a likely customer or not.  It was not as bad as that when I lived on Kellett a couple of years ago now.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 2, 2005)

Yes, and both you and me, Ms T, have been approached by blokes looking for prostitutes which at best is annoying and at worst really frightening (I have been followed right down the street by the really persistent till I did the unpredictable and aggressively deranged old bag routine).


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## tarannau (Dec 2, 2005)

Rushcroft is a tough one - it definitely feels a little lawless down there. I can't say it's a pleasure to meet go to friends' houses there late at night. There again it's not exactly a place you stumble down easily either - I'd be more than happy if the police would concentrate their efforts on the more chaotic unfortunates down there than on more opportunistic kiddies buying fake drugs outside the station.

I always felt safe on Saltoun to be honest, probably because I lived there for a fair old while. The older guys there are sound, although I reckon they struggle to contain some of the rowdier young ones. The only time they ever tried to really sell to me was on the rare occasions I wore a suit - everyone would approach me before they recognised my face.

Strangely enough I always found Brixton Hill a little more foreboding late at night. As Ms M suggests, female friends used to get hassled regularly by kerb crawlers, whilst there were plenty of lurkers to discomfort you.


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## editor (Dec 2, 2005)

Somerleyton Road at night. The only street in London I won't walk down at night and I'm a stubborn bastard.


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## dogmatique (Dec 2, 2005)

Whilst I find the in your face in the open dealing unacceptable, what I find most offensive are the white, middle class tossers who think it's perfectly fine to hop off the bus / tube, score weed in front of families waiting for the bus, and then fuck off into the night to their nice cosy bolt holes.

If they didn't buy it, the dealers wouldn't be there.


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## articletwo (Dec 2, 2005)

Why does the response of the people of Brixton to illegal drug dealing depend on their class? Is it really the case that the non-professional classes don't feel the same? Sounds like the last gasp of class warfare to me.

And what is "alleged" about the anti-social nature of the dealers' behaviour - they are committing a blatant crime, and in doing so acting in a way that can intimidate some members of the community. 

Worse, the slippery slope that Hatboy is implicitly suggesting is very scary: where does his principle that Londoners should have the ability to "manage a basic encounter" end: should the diasbled be able to "manage a basic encounter" with stairs, should non-whites be able to "manage a basic encounter" with racists?

There is a problem of criminal activity outside the Tube in Brixton, which creates a threatening and unpleasant atmosphere. The police, eventually, have agreed that they will put their tea down and get out there and do something about it. I welcome that.

And once the dealers are forced to stop dealing, maybe they can do what most of the rest of us have to do, which is get up every day, struggle in to a legal job, earn some money, struggle home again, and get on with leading lawful lives.


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## JHE (Dec 2, 2005)

dogmatique said:
			
		

> Whilst I find the in your face in the open dealing unacceptable, what I find most offensive are the white, middle class tossers who think it's perfectly fine to hop off the bus / tube, score weed in front of families waiting for the bus, and then fuck off into the night to their nice cosy bolt holes.
> 
> If they didn't buy it, the dealers wouldn't be there.


Unless, of course, they had other, more local, customers to keep them in business.


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 2, 2005)

articletwo said:
			
		

> Why does the response of the people of Brixton to illegal drug dealing depend on their class? Is it really the case that the non-professional classes don't feel the same? Sounds like the last gasp of class warfare to me.
> 
> And what is "alleged" about the anti-social nature of the dealers' behaviour - they are committing a blatant crime, and in doing so acting in a way that can intimidate some members of the community.
> 
> ...



thoroughly rubbish post, sir, please come again!


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## dogmatique (Dec 3, 2005)

JHE said:
			
		

> Unless, of course, they had other, more local, customers to keep them in business.



They (we, being a white middle class tosser myself) _do_ live locally.  It's only a few stops up the Hill / wherever.


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## articletwo (Dec 3, 2005)

bristle-krs said:
			
		

> thoroughly rubbish post, sir, please come again!



thanks, I will


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## Blagsta (Dec 3, 2005)

articletwo said:
			
		

> Why does the response of the people of Brixton to illegal drug dealing depend on their class? Is it really the case that the non-professional classes don't feel the same? Sounds like the last gasp of class warfare to me.
> 
> And what is "alleged" about the anti-social nature of the dealers' behaviour - they are committing a blatant crime, and in doing so acting in a way that can intimidate some members of the community.
> 
> ...




*bangs screen*


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## pooka (Dec 3, 2005)

Well written. Though I'd take issue with 'so-called anti-social behaviour that might inconvenience the professional classes'. My experience is that exasperation with open street drug dealing goes absolutely across the community, including many people who have been in Brixton for a lot longer than either myself or hatboy, having arrived here from much further afield and in circumstances and times of much greater disadvantage. It also includes people trying to make a living in Brixton Market.

The comments about St Agnes are exactly right. Whatever one thinks about the rights or wrongs of squatting, or whether St Agnes could have been developed into a housing coop of some sort, to turn people out in the middle of winter and to do it in so confrontational a manner as required 200 police to avoid the risk of disorder, and to preface the whole espisode with irresponsible jibes about 'parasites', smacks of pure vindictiveness.


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## Donna Ferentes (Dec 5, 2005)

pooka said:
			
		

> Well written. Though I'd take issue with 'so-called anti-social behaviour that might inconvenience the professional classes'. My experience is that exasperation with open street drug dealing goes absolutely across the community, including many people who have been in Brixton for a lot longer than either myself or hatboy, having arrived here from much further afield and in circumstances and times of much greater disadvantage. It also includes people trying to make a living in Brixton Market.
> 
> The comments about St Agnes are exactly right. Whatever one thinks about the rights or wrongs of squatting, or whether St Agnes could have been developed into a housing coop of some sort, to turn people out in the middle of winter and to do it in so confrontational a manner as required 200 police to avoid the risk of disorder, and to preface the whole espisode with irresponsible jibes about 'parasites', smacks of pure vindictiveness.


Indeed and indeed.


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## sugar swiller (Dec 5, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> The other letter is appalling.



I thought both letters were interesting. Why did you find the latter "appalling"?


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## Donna Ferentes (Dec 5, 2005)

sugar swiller said:
			
		

> I thought both letters were interesting. Why did you find the latter "appalling"?


The appalling racism? The appalling willingness of the _Standard_ to print a letter making undetailed accusations against black people?


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## sugar swiller (Dec 5, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> The appalling racism? The appalling willingness of the _Standard_ to print a letter making undetailed accusations against black people?



So you find the view that many white and asian children are developing negative attitudes towards black people as a result of being robbed by black kids to be wrong in fact and hence racist?


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## Donna Ferentes (Dec 5, 2005)

I think you understand very well indeed what I mean - and _I _ understand very well what you are doing, new poster.


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## editor (Dec 5, 2005)

sugar swiller said:
			
		

> So you find the view that many white and asian children are developing negative attitudes towards black people as a result of being robbed by black kids to be wrong in fact and hence racist?


And you are.... oh yes, rednblack's "friend", graymon, _aka_ shinynew-@ _aka_ piss-weak troller shortygoldtooth. All banned (as you will be shortly).

He reckons you're the spammers friend, Top Cat. I reckon you should see a doctor about your weird obsession with this site.


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## sugar swiller (Dec 5, 2005)

"Spammers Friend?" Lost me there with that one...


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## editor (Dec 5, 2005)

sugar swiller said:
			
		

> "Spammers Friend?" Lost me there with that one...


You know - the kind of spineless twat who signed me up to loads of spam lists.

Now fuck off.


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## pk (Dec 7, 2005)

Load of pants.

Hatboy once again mistaking useless weed and crack dealers as some kind of endagered element of black culture.

If he can't handle the fact that the majority of Brixton's residents - including those who happen to be black - don't want to be pestered by junkies and other such lowlife as soon as they step out of the tube station perhaps he should be the one to move.

Maybe if he enjoys the cultural richness that is the constant hassling by surplus dealers he should move to Bogota.

St Agnes - well that's a shame, really, but it had been swamped by crack dealers operating without any fear of arrest for a while, as anyone living there will testify.

If I were a black resident of Lambeth I would be keen to stop Hatboy's efforts to represent what it is their culture is supposed to be about - he speaks for nobody but himself and his "misfit" mates - you know, the ones who enjoy all the benefits of having local professionals pay for their rent, income support, sickness pay, incapacity benefit, medicines and methodone through taxes...

That letter is an insult to the black residents of Lambeth, and his attitude is precisely why I moved away to raise a family... excusing the foul behaviour of drug addicts littering children's playgrounds with dirty needles will be next, you watch... all in the name of "diversity".


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## dum dum (Dec 7, 2005)

Your Jon Gaunt and i claim my five pounds.


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## pk (Dec 7, 2005)

dum dum said:
			
		

> Your Jon Gaunt and i claim my five pounds.



Why is that - because I detest being pestered in Brixton town centre by idiots hissing "skunk... coke...." ?

I don't want to see the area yuppiefied any more than Hatboy does, but neither should the dealers be tolerated.

Move them off the High Road. Not much to ask really is it?


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## IntoStella (Dec 7, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> Load of pants.
> 
> Hatboy once again mistaking useless weed and crack dealers as some kind of endagered element of black culture.
> 
> ...


Yeah, not being a proper Brixton 'Playa' like you, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.  

You're too scared to even walk down the street on your own in Brixton. You live out in Surrey somewhere, or some other chickenshit bit of commuterland, because you were too conservative and too cowardly to stay in south London. That's why you moved away. Your opinions on Brixton have no relevance.

You're not a cool, edgy young inner-city DJ any more (though I doubt you ever were). You're a suburban dad with a midlife crisis and I really wish you wouldn't inflict it on us. Your thinly veiled bigotry fools no-one.


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## aurora green (Dec 7, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> load of pants...
> 
> St Agnes - well that's a shame, really, but it had been swamped by crack dealers operating without any fear of arrest for a while, as anyone living there will testify.




 I'm sorry but that _is_ a load of  pants.


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## Belushi (Dec 7, 2005)

> Why is that - because I detest being pestered in Brixton town centre by idiots hissing "skunk... coke...." ?



I don't mind that, its when they insist on calling me 'Biggie' i get pissed off


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## Donna Ferentes (Dec 7, 2005)

What I could never tolerate was the drug-dealers round the back of my place never offering to sell me anything in two and a half years. What's _wrong_ with me?


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## rennie (Dec 7, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> What I could never tolerate was the drug-dealers round the back of my place never offering to sell me anything in two and a half years. What's _wrong_ with me?




they know their market.


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## IntoStella (Dec 7, 2005)

*Right to reply*

HB has asked me to post up a response from him, which is fair enough as we are discussing him and his letter. 






			
				Hatboy said:
			
		

> I hope people read what I really said in my letter, "not all dealers are aggressive" - I'm not saying they are all OK or that there isn't a major crack dealing problem. I am saying that I'm sick of the blanket condemnation.
> 
> People will misunderstand or think my letter indicates some naivety in that area. I wish I'd made that part clearer really. Try getting an unedited letter in a newspaper - or an article in a magazine - and then you'd know it doesn't always come out exactly as you'd wish, especially if you are not a person people have heard of.
> 
> ...


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## editor (Dec 7, 2005)

I agree with a lot of what hatboy originally said, but I'm afraid I'm unable to muster up any sympathy for "struggling" crack dealers.


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## Dubversion (Dec 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I agree with a lot of what hatboy originally said, but I'm afraid I'm unable to muster up any sympathy for "struggling" crack dealers.




depends why they're doing it. can you really not see how somebody could end up in that position? i'm not condoning it, i just think it's folly to try and make out these people are uniformly evil and born that way.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I agree with a lot of what hatboy originally said, but I'm afraid I'm unable to muster up any sympathy for "struggling" crack dealers.


too much competition, in't it? of course some people are going to go to the wall, and perhaps they should consider an alternative trade. or diversify.


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## kea (Dec 7, 2005)

i have sympathy for people who are struggling in their lives and turn to dealing 
that doesn't in any way excuse what they chose to do, mind.
i just hope that i never find myself in such desperately grim circumstances as those people clearly have.


good reply from hatboy.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> depends why they're doing it. can you really not see how somebody could end up in that position? i'm not condoning it, i just think it's folly to try and make out these people are uniformly evil and born that way.


I haven't used the word 'evil'. I just can't muster any sympathy for a 'poor' crack dealer failing to shift enough units - but maybe that's got something to do with me being smashed in the face and randomly attacked by two of his/her customers.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2005)

i'd have thought you were more likely to have met a couple of customers of one of the more successful entrepreneurs.

a smack in the face off a crackie's still not right, tho'.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i'd have thought you were more likely to have met a couple of customers of one of the more successful entrepreneurs.


I didn't really get chance to ask them about the financial status of their supplier.


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## Dubversion (Dec 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I haven't used the word 'evil'. I just can't muster any sympathy for a 'poor' crack dealer failing to shift enough units - but maybe that's got something to do with me being smashed in the face and randomly attacked by two of his/her customers.




unless you're talking about a specific dealer, you've lost me.

Hatboy didn't mention crack dealers struggling to sell, he talked about people struggling in their lives who were crack dealers. i think you've muddled all that up.


there's a world of difference between the big dealers / suppliers - who i'm sure are all the bling 'n' beemer clichés - and the the poor fuckers out there on the street who are as much a victim of the bastards at the end as regular crackheads


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## DaveCinzano (Dec 7, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> depends why they're doing it. can you really not see how somebody could end up in that position? i'm not condoning it, i just think it's folly to try and make out these people are uniformly evil and born that way.



i agree. i think hatboy's reply above expands on that far better than the constraints of the original published letter allowed. i certainly don't get the sense that he's arguing that 'dealers' are some sort of modern urban role model, more that it is a tragedy that people get into that position.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> Hatboy didn't mention crack dealers struggling to sell, he talked about people struggling in their lives who were crack dealers. i think you've muddled all that up.


I'm obviously saddened that they've reached that point in their lives and hope that they could be helped to sort themselves out*, but I really _do _ generally find it hard to muster any sympathy for crack dealers**, whether they be dealing  from the window of a darkened BMW or on a Coldharbour Lane street corner.

Sorry, but that's how it is for me. Maybe the smack in the face has turned me illogically anti-dealer.

(*and I'm happy for my taxes to be spent on meaningful rehabilitiation
** there will, of course, be specific cases that deserve sympathy - I'm talking generally here, from my own experience)


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## Blagsta (Dec 7, 2005)

I believe HB wrote "empathy", not "sympathy".  There is a difference.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I believe HB wrote "empathy", not "sympathy".  There is a difference.


Ooops! That'll teach me to try and quickly fire off a reply while I was working on something else!


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## Dubversion (Dec 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> ** there will, of course, be specific cases that deserve sympathy - I'm talking generally here, from my own experience)



which is EXACTLY what Hatboy said: that blanket condemnation doesn't work.


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## editor (Dec 7, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> which is EXACTLY what Hatboy said: that blanket condemnation doesn't work.


Oy! You! Back off! I've already said that I'm not payng attention here so I don't need you rubbing my red face in my half-cocked comments anymore, innit?


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## Dubversion (Dec 7, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Oy! You! Back off! I've already said that I'm not payng attention here so I don't need you rubbing my red face in my half-cocked comments anymore, innit?





ok, i'll let you off then


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## pk (Dec 7, 2005)

cut


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## pk (Dec 7, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but that _is_ a load of  pants.




Is it?

http://society.guardian.co.uk/communities/comment/0,16289,1654644,00.html


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## aurora green (Dec 7, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> Is it?
> 
> http://society.guardian.co.uk/communities/comment/0,16289,1654644,00.html




Did you actually know anyone who lived on St.Agnes or have you based your entire opinion of the place on *one* questionable article in the Guardian?

Because I have known quite a lot of St Agnes residents over the years, and your tale of the place being over run with crack, is the first I've heard of it.

Lambeth systematically destroyed a community and you're trying to say that it's ok, because they were all on crack. 

Offensive and uninformed.


----------



## pk (Dec 7, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Did you actually know anyone who lived on St.Agnes or have you based your entire opinion of the place on *one* questionable article in the Guardian?
> 
> Because I have known quite a lot of St Agnes residents over the years, and your tale of the place being over run with crack, is the first I've heard of it.
> 
> ...



I don't and never have supported the kicking of people out of their homes midwinter, a week before Xmas - in fact I expressed disgust at the very notion as soon as I heard about it.

But if you're saying there were no crack dealers operating openly both indoors and out on the street - your opinions differs sharply from those I have heard who live in the area.

No, it's not fair the decent innocent residents were victimised, and I think it would be poetic should Keith Fuckwitt be burglarised on Christmas Eve considering his stupid comments.

But if you're looking for something to blame, it's the crack dealing, in the opinion of people I trust. Unfortunately they'll move in where they can do business, bringing heat on top for people just trying to get along.
As well you know.

I wonder if the professionals Hatboy seems to single out for particular ire who lived there enjoyed being harassed by aggressive dealers on the way home?


----------



## Giles (Dec 7, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> I wonder if the professionals Hatboy seems to single out for particular ire who lived there enjoyed being harassed by aggressive dealers on the way home?



Oh, but in his opinion they should realise that they are not beyond reproach for London's divisive problems, so they probably asked for it, eh?

Giles..


----------



## netbob (Dec 7, 2005)

HatBoy said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by Hatboy
> I hope people read what I really said in my letter, "not all dealers are aggressive" - I'm not saying they are all OK or that there isn't a major crack dealing problem. I am saying that I'm sick of the blanket condemnation...........



Excelent reply.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 7, 2005)

Yup.


----------



## Santi-Panchita (Dec 8, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Your opinions on Brixton have no relevance.



Now this riles me. 

My great grand parents, my gran and her kids were born and bred in Brixton. I - incidentally - was born in the sticks but moved to Brixton in my teens. I left after ten years precisely because 

a. gentrification pushed up prices beyond my means
b. i had enough off of being threatened by dealers on me way home

....so who are you to say that my (or anybody else's) opinions dont count? Do we have to be in your club to have a valid opinion or to be able to express an opinion?


----------



## thestraightman (Dec 8, 2005)

Hatboy.
I wanted to insult you, now I miss you  
Come back ya bas


----------



## pk (Dec 8, 2005)

cut


----------



## aurora green (Dec 8, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> I don't and never have supported the kicking of people out of their homes midwinter, a week before Xmas - in fact I expressed disgust at the very notion as soon as I heard about it.
> 
> But if you're saying there were no crack dealers operating openly both indoors and out on the street - your opinions differs sharply from those I have heard who live in the area.
> 
> ...





The eviction of St Agnes had nothing whatsoever to do with crack, and was all about money, whatever a few professionals you know who live in the 'area', may misguidedly believe.

I am finding it hard to articulate exactly why Hatboy made the link between St agnes and drug dealers, but crack _wasn't_ the point of connection.

It was about the way that all 'undesirables' are demonised (like calling a longterm community of council tax payers 'parasites') and seemingly the cause of all the boroughs' problems, rather than looking at the underlying problems. For instance, Lambeth education has been failing its' youngsters for years, schools sold off for re-development into luxury flats... 
Is it any wonder so many end up on the streets, with little prospects?

Lambeth could easily have incorporated the community of St Agnes into any re-devolopment of the area, it could have put some value on that communty and used it as an integral part of any new one. 
Instead it  choose to destroy it, and treat everyone like scum. Crack had nothing to do with it.


----------



## alcopop (Dec 8, 2005)

innit said:
			
		

> Am I the only person who didn't think it was a very good letter?  Maybe as a man, Hatboy can't appreciate that women might actually feel threatened or frightened by being approached by men lurking in the shadows late at night, rather than inconvenienced.  I also think it is rather moot to claim that 'professionals' would be the only people who might rather not be offered drugs on the street.  He seems to conflate the issues of street dealing and St Agnes Place very conveniently... personally I don't think that arresting street drug dealers is an assault on difference or diversity (Political Correctness gone mad?  )



i agree


----------



## pk (Dec 8, 2005)

alcopop said:
			
		

> i agree



The letter also basically infers that there can be no such thing as professional rastafarians.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> The letter also basically infers that there can be no such thing as professional rastafarians.


[offtopick]good to see you posting again! [/offtopick]


----------



## pk (Dec 8, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> [offtopick]good to see you posting again! [/offtopick]



Found a little time for my online Brickston posse, but I'll prolly disappear again soon though for work/family reasons so enjoy it while you can...


----------



## nick (Dec 8, 2005)

Aah - all the old posters, just like 3 years ago.
Congrats on No 2 Kid PK - By the way, you're slipping:
 you meant imply, not infer


----------



## pk (Dec 8, 2005)

nick said:
			
		

> Aah - all the old posters, just like 3 years ago.
> Congrats on No 2 Kid PK - By the way, you're slipping:
> you meant imply, not infer



Ah cheers Nick... yeah, imply... not infer.


----------



## dogmatique (Dec 8, 2005)

Bleach breath.  Interesting.  Innovative.  But is it a real insult?  Ahem.  As you were.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> Just pity her instead, I know I do, and I'm certainly not alone in doing so.


Calm down, dad. Haven't got any paediatricians to set light to?

 Who pk thinks he is:






Who pk really is:


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> Like I'd ever give a fuck what a harpie twat like you thinks of me anyway.


Oh, but you so obviously do. 

The trouble with using 'harpie' as an insult to a woman is this: it only works with other bigots.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

Any chance of getting this thread back on topic or is it a goner?


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## hendo (Dec 9, 2005)

I think PK's posting on this thread is a disgrace.


----------



## kea (Dec 9, 2005)

so do i.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

>


Can you stop this please ?


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Who pk really is:


Stop please.


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## netbob (Dec 9, 2005)

this thread was interesting once wasn't it


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 9, 2005)

Just bin it, Editor.
(just make sure I am last in though!)


----------



## hendo (Dec 9, 2005)

Then PK's presumably done what he intended, which was to get a worthwhile discussion about a worthwhile topic derailed and binned.


----------



## knopf (Dec 9, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Just bin it, Editor.
> (just make sure I am last in though!)


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> she's a poisonous old hag


This is out of order and you should go back and edit it out.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> she's a poisonous old hag and always has been


Calm down, dad, you'll give yourself a coronary. 

You don't get it, do you?  You are so _over_. Mohhh. Poor thing.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> It was a goner from the outset - Hatboy's letter just <blah blah, yawn. Snip>


 In other words, you deliberately trolled the thread.

Because you're an old bigot.


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## sam/phallocrat (Dec 9, 2005)

heheheh


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

You'll take out my real name, please.

_Do not piss about with user names or refer to people by their real names _


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> You'll take out my real name, please.
> 
> _Do not piss about with user names or refer to people by their real names _



Oh my mistake, it's just that your full name appears in your profile and I don't feel comfortable calling you Donna.


----------



## Radar (Dec 9, 2005)

Light the blue touchpaper and whee .....


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> Why don't you run along to your new forums, since you have such contempt for these ones (even though you spend most of your life here).


 No one thinks you're cool and no-one is afraid of you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. 

I don't have contempt for urban75. I have contempt for you. Along with a vast number of other people who are bored to death with you shitting your pants with rage every time someone refuses to be intimidated by you.

Threatened any more women lately?


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## gabi (Dec 9, 2005)

Don't know you PK, but fuck you sound like a right bitter Cunt.


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> And I haven't threatened any women to my knowledge - unlike your boyfriend, from what I hear..


 That's quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever heard. Charles Haughtrey is more threatening than AK. 

    

Silly little man. 

Hear that?

..........

It's the world's smallest violin and it's playing just for you.


----------



## gabi (Dec 9, 2005)

Anyway, back on topic - the letter itself is all over the place.  Just sounds like someone venting for the sake of it.

Trying to connect dealers on Coldharbour and St Agnes seems a bit bizarre.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

gabi said:
			
		

> Don't know you PK


Think yourself lucky.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

gabi said:
			
		

> Trying to connect dealers on Coldharbour and St Agnes seems a bit bizarre.


I thought it was quite good how he managed to kill two birds with one stone.  I don't think he was connecting the two, as such. The St Agnes part did begin "meanwhile..." after all. It was notable that the Standard  printed the whole thing.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

Their conduct in printing the other letter though was remarkable. It's basically a collection of fact-free slurs against black people. They had no business printing it.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Their conduct in printing the other letter though was remarkable. It's basically a collection of fact-free slurs against black people. They had no business printing it.


I didn't actually read the other one.


----------



## kea (Dec 9, 2005)

it's pretty cunty.
(as is pk incidentally)


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 9, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Their conduct in printing the other letter though was remarkable. It's basically a collection of fact-free slurs against black people. They had no business printing it.


I must admit, looking back on it, maybe they did it on purpose.Printing it directly under Hatboy's letter. It wouldn't surprise me at all.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

I was actually inclined to write to them asking for their rationale for printing it.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 9, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> I was actually inclined to write to them asking for their rationale for printing it.


It's crap anyway, that letter. There are black on black street robberies, as there are white on white, asian on asian it's not a race thing.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

So, I pop out to watch the last Routemasters roll through Brixton and I come back to bunfight _par excellence_. No fun!


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> The letter also basically infers that there can be no such thing as professional rastafarians.



What in the world is a "professional rastafarian"?


----------



## sam/phallocrat (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So, I pop out to watch the last Routemasters roll through Brixton and I come back to bunfight _par excellence_. No fun!



_Au contraire._ Mega fun


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

For the love of HTML, PHP and all things bulletin board-esque, can't you give this a rest, pk?

Keep it up and you're looking at a ban.


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## lang rabbie (Dec 9, 2005)

[reveals inner fascist within every so-called liberal ]If I were a mod, I'd have banned him some time ago.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> [reveals inner fascist within every so-called liberal ]If I were a mod, I'd have banned him some time ago.


There's lots of people who have done more than enough to have banned, but sometimes it's simply not worth the grief.

And it's a Friday, so let's all sing happy songs and be nice to each other.

La, la, la, la.......


----------



## kea (Dec 9, 2005)

you really are a nasty cunt pk.
which is a shame cos i've met you and you used to be pretty nice.


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

kea said:
			
		

> you really are a nasty cunt pk.
> which is a shame cos i've met you and you used to be pretty nice.


Put your big book of naughty words down and join in a happy clappy chorus instead!


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 9, 2005)

*Oi.*


----------



## kea (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> As I recall you were desperate to meet me mainly because of my links with the news industry.
> 
> As opposed to Builders Monthly.
> 
> You're as two-faced as they come, love, so don't play the innocent.




completely and utterly fictitious and you know it. you work in broadcast remember? not even plausible.
i'd suggest you should try harder but it'd probably get you banned.

edit: you clearly only came back on these boards for a fight, you haven't made one constructive post since you got back here. there's a word for that. why not piss off back to your hidey hole before butchers tans your arse again.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 9, 2005)

Bin time?


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Bin time?


No, the thread's fine. It's another disposal entirely that's in order.


----------



## Bob (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> And it's a Friday, so let's all sing happy songs and be nice to each other.
> 
> La, la, la, la.......


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm just giving this a shine...


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## gaijingirl (Dec 9, 2005)

PK.. I did feel sorry for you at first- back at the start of this whole playground style kerfuffle - but your response to Intostella is _way_ out of line - what cruel things you are saying....


----------



## pk (Dec 9, 2005)

cut


----------



## rennie (Dec 9, 2005)

i think pk should be banned. friday or not.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

reNnIe said:
			
		

> i think pk should be banned. friday or not.


Already done, 24hr ban. 

More of the same if anyone carries on the bollocks, with or without organ accompaniment.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> I thought AK threw you out of the house last Christmas anyway, IntoStella.


I'd love to know where PK gets his information from. Either some fellow coward who likes making up things about other people or he just fabricates them himself. 

*For the record*, it's well known to the many people in this forum who I know personally that I was not living with AK when this occurred, but sharing a flat with some twerp who thinks he's an anarchist.

Gaijingirl -- I wouldn't call it cruel. For something to be cruel, it has to succeed in being hurtful. pk lost all his teeth long, long ago.


----------



## bluestreak (Dec 9, 2005)

without being funny, pk used to be one of urban's stalwarts, and accorded me many hours of amusement by being harsh but fair.  these days he's just harsh.  it's a shame.  bring back the old pk and not a vitriolic hate-merchant.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I'd love to know where PK gets his information from. Either some fellow coward who likes making up things about other people or he just fabricates them himself.


Either name names or just shut the fuck up _*please*_.

pk's been banned so what's the point of trying to keep the bad vibes going with these 'coward' comments clearly aimed at stirring up someone else?



Let's have a nice singalong instead:






Go Kennie!


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> pk's been banned so what's the point of trying to keep the bad vibes going with these 'coward' comments clearly aimed at stirring up someone else?


If some hateful, washed-up no-mark fabricates malicious rumours about people on your board then it is only right and proper for the record to be set straight.

Don't you think? 

He certainly hasn't won any hearts on this thread today.  Do you see anyone defending his pitiful tantrums?


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

Oh hang on. I think I'm with you now. Are you suggesting  that I am saying  pk got his made-up information from Dubversion? 

I wasn't suggesting that at all. I don't know where the hell he gets it from. I would imagine he just writes the first thing that comes into his shiny little head. 

Is that what you're saying? Do you know something about the situation that I don't?


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 9, 2005)

don't any of you fucking dare bring me into this car crash.


----------



## IntoStella (Dec 9, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> don't any of you fucking dare bring me into this car crash.


 For the record, I never suggested -- or suspected -- pk's behaviour was anything to do with you.  

He is far beneath anybody else here.


----------



## Dubversion (Dec 9, 2005)

i don't give a fuck, just leave me out of it.


----------



## aurora green (Dec 9, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> [reveals inner fascist within every so-called liberal ]




Never a truer word....eh?


----------



## lang rabbie (Dec 9, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Never a truer word....eh?


Can't I even make an attempt at self-deprecating humour on this forum today without being dragged into someone else's spat


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

Why should today be any different (etcetcetc)


----------



## netbob (Dec 9, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Never a truer word....eh?



On the subject of which, google rates the man the 10th biggest parasite in the UK 

A few more of the below on peoples bloggies and he might make number 1    :

<a href="http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/NR/exeres/F9307333-3A43-4659-BE11-0CD339F06A62.htm">
Parasite
</a>


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Oh hang on. I think I'm with you now. Are you suggesting  that I am saying  pk got his made-up information from Dubversion?


Nope. I just asked you to either name this "fellow coward" that _you chose_ to  introduce to the discussion or (preferably) back off and stop making this hideous thread even worse.

You certainly played a part in kicking off the unpleasantness today with your attack on pk - who you called a 'coward'-  but he went too far in response and was banned. 

I would have thought that should have been the end of it.

So why the chuffin' nobblenuts are you going on about a "fellow coward" and trying to drag Dubversion into all this?


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

memespring said:
			
		

> A few more of the below on peoples bloggies and he might make number 1    :


For a while, if you typed in Van Hoogstraten in google, the urban75 'punch page' came in at number one.

Great laugh when he was in prison. 
Not so much fun when he got unexpectedly released!


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> and trying to drag Dubversion into all this?


Ah, I don't think she did.

I _do_ wonder whether allegations as vile as those published by pk should maybe have been removed.


----------



## netbob (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> For a while, if you typed in Van Hoogstraten in google, the urban75 'punch page' came in at number one.
> 
> Great laugh when he was in prison.
> Not so much fun when he got unexpectedly released!



Why what happened?


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Ah, I don't think she did.


Err, she mentioned him in her post, which - considering their _long _history of rubbing each other the wrong way over the slightest thing - is unlikely to help matters. Really.

I can't be arsed to go back and reread any more of this thread or start editing out bits (unless specifically asked to) because I've really got far better things to do with my time.

Like sort out my Brixton lost pubs  section, for example.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

memespring said:
			
		

> Why what happened?


Would you fancy the attentions of his henchmen?

Thankfully, press stories about his release bumped the page further down the Google rankings.


----------



## netbob (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Would you fancy the attentions of his henchmen?



See your point. No probably not. 

Here's hoping KF hasnt got any heavies.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, she mentioned him in her post, which - considering their _long _history of rubbing each other the wrong way over the slightest thing - is unlikely to help matters. Really.


yes, but she specifically mentioned in that posting and another that she was quite clear Dubversion was nothing to do with it. In other words she was clearly ruling him out,  not dragging him in.




			
				editor said:
			
		

> I can't be arsed to go back and reread any more of this thread or start editing out bits (unless specifically asked to) because I've really got far better things to do with my time.


Fair enough. But as it stands, you have really, really vile accusations about named individuals on your site.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> yes, but she specifically mentioned in that posting and another that she was quite clear Dubversion was nothing to do with it. In other words she was clearly ruling him out,  not dragging him in.


Look: I'm doing the best I can here but I've had enough of having to look at this fucking  shitty thread and getting moaned at whatever I do.

And to be honest, you're not really helping.

It's not up to you to ask if content relating to another poster should be removed: if IS wants it removed she can PM me and I'll be glad to oblige her when and if I get time. But she hasn't asked.

No, I'll tell you what, I'll just save myself the bother of all that extra work and just dump the entire thread now and then everyone will be happy, yes?

No? Of course not! Some people will no doubt complain that it should be kept. 
What a silly idea!

It's these kind of threads that really make it really hard to be a cheery fucker, but what the fuck. 

It's Friday and I've got a shiny new camera coming on loan tomorrow. And there's beer coming my way tonight. Nice.

The power of positive thinking in action.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Dec 9, 2005)

I'm not sure what's upsetting you. You have said before that people should make their feelings known if they think something is out of order: you've previously asked people who've mentioned things after the fact whether or not they've done so. I _have_ done so. And I think it's a serious thing, defamation of character, trying to spread rumours to destroy somebody else's reputation. You may think it doesn't "help" to say so: I see it otherwise. It is surely your privilege to leave things as they are if you wish. But it is surely also mine to express some measure of disagreement.

As for getting moaned at whatever you do - well, I sympathise, but not all moans are equally unreasonable, are they?


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> And I think it's a serious thing, defamation of character, trying to spread rumours to destroy somebody else's reputation.


So I'm supposed to spend ages of my precious time trawling through a really fucking dull, long thread where insults have been freely traded between several posters and find and delete content that you personally find objectionable, even if the original posters haven't complained, yes?

I can see some of IS's comments about pk could be described as defamatory, but why aren't you asking me to delete them too?

I'm getting more inclined to just delete the whole fucking thing on account of wanting to have a life on a Friday night.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Dec 9, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm getting more inclined to just delete the whole fucking thing on account of wanting to have a life on a Friday night.


Isn't it time for your electric blanket and hot milk, old boy?


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Isn't it time for your electric blanket and hot milk, old boy?


Well, I have switched from _'aving it large, wife-beater_ Stella to _old man_ real ale recently, but I don't think I'm quite ready for an electric blanket yet.


----------



## kea (Dec 9, 2005)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> without being funny, pk used to be one of urban's stalwarts, and accorded me many hours of amusement by being harsh but fair.  these days he's just harsh.  it's a shame.  bring back the old pk and not a vitriolic hate-merchant.



i echo this sentiment - heart-felt. pk was a great bloke. it's really sad things have turned out like this 

sorry for bumping the thread editor, but i'd just like to add that pk's posts about me are complete crap (sure everyone has realised this anyway but would like to say so, just for the record).

i hope if pk comes back he will manage to restrain himself a bit better.


edit: and i really do think that his comments about intostella are beyond acceptability. completely disgusting.


----------



## Santi-Panchita (Dec 10, 2005)

edited out to avoid further provocation


----------



## oryx (Dec 10, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> but I don't think I'm quite ready for an electric blanket yet.



And what is wrong with electric blankets?    

Re. Hatboy's letter - I do tend to think it portrays dealers as cheeky chappie outlaws who are an annoyance to the yuppies. This ignores the fact that most people whose lives are blighted by drugs and dealers are not 'yuppies' but live in poverty & disenfrachisement on the disadvantaged estates of Lambeth (and elsewhere, of course). The downside to the cheeky chappie dealers plying their wares by the tube is not a tutting and disapproving yup, but someone (probably a working-class family who have no alternative) having to live next door to a crackhouse. 

I do miss Hatboy's intelligent & incisive posts (though the reasons he's not posting here any more are not for me to coment on).

<remembers to plug leccy blanket in soon>


----------



## Ms T (Dec 10, 2005)

oryx said:
			
		

> Re. Hatboy's letter - I do tend to think it portrays dealers as cheeky chappie outlaws who are an annoyance to the yuppies. This ignores the fact that most people whose lives are blighted by drugs and dealers are not 'yuppies' but live in poverty & disenfrachisement on the disadvantaged estates of Lambeth (and elsewhere, of course). The downside to the cheeky chappie dealers plying their wares by the tube is not a tutting and disapproving yup, but someone (probably a working-class family who have no alternative) having to live next door to a crackhouse.



Not to mention the fact that a significant number of young, black men end up dead because of drug dealing.


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## Blagsta (Dec 10, 2005)

oryx said:
			
		

> And what is wrong with electric blankets?
> 
> Re. Hatboy's letter - I do tend to think it portrays dealers as cheeky chappie outlaws who are an annoyance to the yuppies. This ignores the fact that most people whose lives are blighted by drugs and dealers are not 'yuppies' but live in poverty & disenfrachisement on the disadvantaged estates of Lambeth (and elsewhere, of course). The downside to the cheeky chappie dealers plying their wares by the tube is not a tutting and disapproving yup, but someone (probably a working-class family who have no alternative) having to live next door to a crackhouse.
> 
> ...



Hmmm...I read it more along the lines of - a lot of people are dealing precisely because of the poverty and disenfranchisment and shouldn't we be addressing that?


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## Dubversion (Dec 10, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Hmmm...I read it more along the lines of - a lot of people are dealing precisely because of the poverty and disenfranchisment and shouldn't we be addressing that?




i'm amazed it can be read any other way, to be honest.


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## editor (Dec 10, 2005)

Isn't just as much of a stereotype to assume that "a lot" of people are dealing crack because of "poverty and disenfranchisment" in Brixton? 

I'm sure some are, but who knows what proportion? The majority? 50%? A minority? Anyone got any figures?

That's not to say that poverty and disenfranchisment shouldn't be addressed, of course.

Edit to add: interesting article here:
http://www.schnews.org.uk/sotw/evrybody-neighbours.htm


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## Blagsta (Dec 10, 2005)

Its an opinion based on observation and working for a Brixton drugs service.  Street dealers aren't exactly top of the pile.


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## editor (Dec 10, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Its an opinion based on observation and working for a Brixton drugs service.


Has there been no study?
I'd be interested in learning the demographic breakdown of crack dealers in my 'hood.


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## editor (Dec 10, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Street dealers aren't exactly top of the pile.


<notes edit>

True. But that doesn't necessarily make them disenfranchised or poverty-striken, does it?

(That's not to say that some aren't, of course!)


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## Blagsta (Dec 10, 2005)

Not sure about stats for Brixton dealers but Turning Point recently produced The Crack Report
http://www.turning-point.co.uk/NR/r...-B8D5-F60A30D9BCE3/0/TP_CrackReport250705.pdf


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## editor (Dec 10, 2005)

Eeek! PDF! I'll look later. Cheers for the link.


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## pk (Dec 10, 2005)

*An apology*

Just want to say I fucked up last night, I was in a proper bollocks mood and went way over the top in response to IntoStella, and for that I apologise, both to her and the rest of the forum.

I wasn't looking for a ruck but shouldn't have been such a cunt especially with the personal bullshit... I admit that I definitely was with the stuff I was coming out with.

Guess a lot of shit been slinging around lately, and I have felt more than a bit guilty that I let it get the better of me, especially this close to Christmas.

So - once again I find myself having to eat the humble crumble and admit I was way over the top.

I'll start deleting now. Perhaps others can do the same? We'll see.

I still stand by the comments I made about the letter and the need to get rid of street dealers, but that's an opinion - the rest was an unneccesarily cuntish and spiteful over the top attack, and although IntoStella and I have hardly ever seen eye to eye on anything, she definitely didn't deserve that shit.

I wouldn't blame you if you told me to go and get fucked, IS, but I do genuinely apologise anyway. I hope you took it with the pinch of salt it deserved. 

Shit happens, but to chuck it back at random in such a way shouldn't happen.

Again, sorry.

  

pk


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## Derian (Dec 10, 2005)

Top post


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## gaijingirl (Dec 11, 2005)

Derian said:
			
		

> Top post



Yes.... I agree......


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## editor (Dec 11, 2005)

Good for you, pk.


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## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2005)

memespring said:
			
		

> On the subject of which, google rates the man the 10th biggest parasite in the UK
> 
> A few more of the below on peoples bloggies and he might make number 1    :
> 
> ...


He's made page 6 of the worldwide parasite list.


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## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2005)

memespring said:
			
		

> Here's hoping KF hasnt got any heavies.


I got a final warning threat of banning on the Guardian talkboards when I posted a thread saying that the Lambeth LibDems had banned the cannabis festival. They also deleted the whole thread - which apparently is unusual - and refused to answer my emails asking why. Obviously the LibDem central intelligence agency were on the case.


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## netbob (Dec 11, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I got a final warning threat of banning on the Guardian talkboards when I posted a thread saying that the Lambeth LibDems had banned the cannabis festival. They also deleted the whole thread - which apparently is unusual - and refused to answer my emails asking why. Obviously the LibDem central intelligence agency were on the case.



If that's the case it seems a bit over the top, if you'd said it in a local paper they wouldn't have tried to ban the local paper?! 

_The internet- easy to publish, easy to censor_  

Fortunately blogs (especially when privately hosted) are less susceptible to that kind of censorship. (Earlier in the year a few bloggers managed to get the word Liar associated with Tony Blair and Sir Iain Blair.)


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## netbob (Dec 11, 2005)

Derian said:
			
		

> Top post






			
				gaijingirl said:
			
		

> Yes.... I agree......


Yep


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## articletwo (Dec 11, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Not sure about stats for Brixton dealers but Turning Point recently produced The Crack Report
> http://www.turning-point.co.uk/NR/r...-B8D5-F60A30D9BCE3/0/TP_CrackReport250705.pdf



Interesting report, but it hardly portrays the dealers as victims of "poverty and disenfranchisement"; in fact, they come across as ruthless and cynical profiteers who switched recovered heroin users to crack (p.6) and who "promoted [crack] as ‘smokeable cocaine’ to engage the younger market, or marketed [it] initially for free as a ‘two for one’ offer with the purchase of heroin" (p.6). 
It then goes on to say that "[the] British Crime Survey reveals that primary crack use may be particularly prevalent in and damaging to African-Caribbean ommunities in certain areas of the UK" and "The effects of crack also hit harder where social exclusion is acute. Many deprived neighbourhoods experience the additional blight of open dealing, associated violence and street prostitution." (also p.6). Far from the action against dealers at the Tube being to placate the "professional" classes, it seems more to do with helping the wider community in Brixton.
What the report also makes clear is that "treatment works" (p.8); is there a corresponding provision of treatment alongside the police clampdown on the dealers?


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## Blagsta (Dec 11, 2005)

Do you think that they're on about street level dealers?  Why do you think people turn to crime?  I was up at the prison the other week.  A lot of the inmates were of the opinion that getting a job is pointless as they can make more money other ways.  Maybe addressing some of the social and economic inequalities in our society might address the problem.


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## editor (Dec 11, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I was up at the prison the other week.  A lot of the inmates were of the opinion that getting a job is pointless as they can make more money other ways.  Maybe addressing some of the social and economic inequalities in our society might address the problem.


Are you saying they _could_ get work but would rather go for the more lucrative, easier buck, or that they are forced into dealing because they're unable to get a job?


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## pooka (Dec 11, 2005)

articletwo said:
			
		

> What the report also makes clear is that "treatment works" (p.8); is there a corresponding provision of treatment alongside the police clampdown on the dealers?



See this thread

There's useful stuff too in a recent report by Mike Hough and others at Kings about the relationships between drug dealing and communities, summarised in Understanding drug selling in local communities


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## Blagsta (Dec 11, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Are you saying they _could_ get work but would rather go for the more lucrative, easier buck, or that they are forced into dealing because they're unable to get a job?



I guess the point is that most jobs pay shit.  These people aren't stupid - they just figure why should they work their arses off so someone else can profit when they can commit crime and be better off...I don't think crime* is justified but I can understand it.

*although that depends what is meant by "crime".


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## TeeJay (Dec 11, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I guess the point is that most jobs pay shit.  These people aren't stupid - they just figure why should they work their arses off so someone else can profit when they can commit crime and be better off...


Whether you are retailing illegal drugs or retailing groceries someone else is making a profit somewhere in the supply chain.

What would you define as "shit"? Something like £200/week (40 hours @ £5/hr)?

Maybe in the short term people can make money, but I'd guess that lifetime earnings for people involved in crime in the UK isn't on average that great, so as a "career choice" it ends up being pretty shit.


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## Bob (Dec 11, 2005)

There've been a few studies of this by economists that show that street level guys typically make no more than they'd make on the minimum wage, and of course are taking serious risks by doing it. The reason they do it is so they have a shot at working their way up the chain to the big time where they make serious amounts of money. No tackling of deprivation will have any significant impact on this unless we make sure that every kid who leaves school in Britain goes into a job earning at least £50k a year - which seems a little unlikely to me.

I can only see two long term answers. The first is full legalisation of everything. The second is reducing demand substantially.


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## phildwyer (Dec 11, 2005)

Of course these things are impossible to estimate accurately, and vary greatly, but generally speaking in the USA, the street-level dealers of hard drugs make $40--80K p.a., which is a the equivalent of a skilled blue-collar worker such as pumber, electrician or cop.  This is much more than the dealers could make any other way, since they lack skills due to the fact that they grow up in low-income areas with a low tax base and therefore crap schools.  

I'd also say, and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, that it is the purest hyporisy for people who use drugs to criticize dealers, whether they work on the street or elsewhere.


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## editor (Dec 11, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I'd also say, and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, that it is the purest hyporisy for people who use drugs to criticize dealers, whether they work on the street or elsewhere.


So would someone who smokes, say, a little weed, be a 'hypocrite' for criticising a violent crack dealer?

And you don't see any difference between the drugs being sold and the damage they can cause, both to the local community and to the user?


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## phildwyer (Dec 12, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So would someone who smokes, say, a little weed, be a 'hypocrite' for criticising a violent crack dealer?
> 
> And you don't see any difference between the drugs being sold and the damage they can cause, both to the local community and to the user?



Well, violence is a different issue.  And I'd separate weed from other drugs too.  But anyone who uses coke is directly contributing to the industry that puts crack dealers on the streets.  There was a thread a while ago about a Nigerian mule being given prison time, and several people who've said they use coke were endorsing the sentence.  Personally, I think that if one uses drugs oneself, one is not really in a position to object to street dealers of those same drugs.


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## TeeJay (Dec 12, 2005)

Does this mean that noone who uses electricity or motorised transport can speak out against climate change?


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## phildwyer (Dec 12, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Does this mean that noone who uses electricity or motorised transport can speak out against climate change?



Oh don't be a twat, again.  All I mean is that the residents of Brixton (at least those who consider themselves in any sense "left-wing") should stop moaning about street dealers, instead accepting them as an inevitable element within the alternative culture of which they are rightly proud.


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## TeeJay (Dec 12, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Oh don't be a twat, again.  All I mean is that the residents of Brixton (at least those who consider themselves in any sense "left-wing") should stop moaning about street dealers, instead accepting them as an inevitable element within the alternative culture of which they are rightly proud.


If that's what you meant why did you say "people who take drugs" instead of "people who are left wing" or "people who live in Brixton"? In any case you new version of 'what you mean' makes even less sense.

So it seems that it is you being a twat.

How is your new book coming on btw?


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## editor (Dec 12, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> All I mean is that the residents of Brixton (at least those who consider themselves in any sense "left-wing") should stop moaning about street dealers, instead accepting them as an inevitable element within the alternative culture of which they are rightly proud.


I'm honestly a bit lost here.

Why should the residents of Brixton "accept" the random violence and crime  that goes with the crack trade?


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## phildwyer (Dec 12, 2005)

TeJay said:
			
		

> How is your new book coming on btw?



Great, how about yours?


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## TeeJay (Dec 12, 2005)

I'm not writing a book you donut! 

What's the connection between being "left wing" and 'not complaining about crack dealers' again?


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## JHE (Dec 12, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Oh don't be a twat, again.  All I mean is that the residents of Brixton (at least those who consider themselves in any sense "left-wing") should stop moaning about street dealers, instead accepting them as an inevitable element within the alternative culture of which they are rightly proud.


Assuming that you are referring to smack/crack dealers as well as some relatively harmless types flogging cannabis, I'm not sure how to take this.  Is it (a) a parody of fashionable liberal twaddle or (b) sincere twaddle (and almost beyond parody)?


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## TeeJay (Dec 12, 2005)

or (c) a message from God


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## phildwyer (Dec 12, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I'm not writing a book you donut!
> 
> What's the connection between being "left wing" and 'not complaining about crack dealers' again?



Just a matter of live-and-let-live among the lumpenproles.  A matter of not sympathising with state oppression of the disenfranchised.  A sense of common interests within a diverse community.  A feeling of solidarity with those who have no chance to achieve a decent standard of living within the law.  Things like that, which were once basic persuppositions of anarchist politics...


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## TeeJay (Dec 12, 2005)

Shall I start a "Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?" thread in the Politics & Protest forum or would you like the honour?


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## phildwyer (Dec 12, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Shall I start a "Is it left wing to tolerate crack dealers?" thread in the Politics & Protest forum or would you like the honour?



The honour is all yours.


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## Blagsta (Dec 12, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> Whether you are retailing illegal drugs or retailing groceries someone else is making a profit somewhere in the supply chain.
> 
> What would you define as "shit"? Something like £200/week (40 hours @ £5/hr)?
> 
> Maybe in the short term people can make money, but I'd guess that lifetime earnings for people involved in crime in the UK isn't on average that great, so as a "career choice" it ends up being pretty shit.



Errrr...did I say it was a good choice?  I'm just trying to illustrate how people involved in crime see their choices.


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