# Learning to draw: hints, tips, warnings



## Vintage Paw (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm throwing myself headlong into 'learning to draw'.

'Learning to draw' probably isn't the best description, because it's not just about wanting to be able to put pencil to paper and produce something that looks like something real, but understanding colour, shading, light, composition, how mediums react in certain circumstances and how to use that positively, etc. Basically, I'm learning how to make arty shit that looks like it's meant to look like that.

I know very little about this stuff. I don't have an innate ability to understand the relationships between shapes, to deconstruct what I see in front of me (or in my mind) and get it down on paper as the correct movements, lines, etc. However, I do have enthusiasm, and I have time on my hands.

So, good artists of Urban: firstly, do you think it's possible for someone who doesn't have that innate sense to actually practice and study enough that they can learn to do it (reasonably) well, or do you have to have that understanding before you even start?

Secondly, what hints, tips and warnings would you give to someone wanting to improve their skill?

I'm immersing myself in other people's stuff. I'm looking at a lot of it, then picking out a few pieces here and there and basically trying to copy them - not a complete rip-off but copying some basic shapes and then going in my own direction with it. Not tracing, but copying from eye. I figure that's one decent way of starting out, because it forces me to study how they made that picture, and what steps I'd need to do to recreate it.

Copying a variety of other people's stuff is also useful at exposing me to different styles, so I can see what sticks.

I also think that repeating the same kinds of things over and over - like doing a bunch of really quick sketches of simple faces, or birds or something - will help build muscle memory, so my eyes, brain and hand start to work in sync.

Teach me to draw, Urban.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2013)

every time i to forbidden planet on shaftesbury avenue i'm struck by the number of books about drawing they have in the basement. i've flicked through quite a few of them and i think you could do worse than have a look yourself - you might well find something which would help you on your way.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 18, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> every time i to forbidden planet on shaftesbury avenue i'm struck by the number of books about drawing they have in the basement. i've flicked through quite a few of them and i think you could do worse than have a look yourself - you might well find something which would help you on your way.



I wondered about this. I picked up a copy of _Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain_ a few years ago, flicked through it once, then never went back to it. I should dig that out, for starters.

The internet is a great resource, of course. I've been plunging head first into tumblr and deviantArt, searching various tags, and there are tutorials, etc.

One thing that keeps my motivation up is a silly little thing on deviantArt called "Draw This Again". People go back to one of their old pictures and, well, draw it again. Then they upload them side-by-side to compare how they've improved, whether their style has changed, and so on. I've seen some amazing pictures sitting alongside versions of them that a few years ago looked like they were drawn by a drunken monkey in the dark. That's keeping my spirits up ^^

(One thing I'm learning to avoid is watching speedpainting videos, because they just make me feel hopelessly useless.)


----------



## wayward bob (Nov 18, 2013)

something they're always getting us to do at college is timed exercises - say 3 or 5 minutes a piece, drawing with your left hand, continuous line (not taking pencil off paper), without looking at the paper (you can put another sheet on top so you don't cheat), drawing from your wrist/elbow/shoulder. use whatever materials you can get your hands on - pencil, ink, biro, charcoal, crayons, brown or news paper, try covering a sheet in charcoal and use a rubber to draw. a lot of it is just discovering what different marks you can get from your materials. if you google drawing exercises i'm sure you'll find a load more.

have fun  (fwiw i hate drawing, even after college and life classes, avoid it at every possible opportunity )


----------



## jakethesnake (Nov 18, 2013)

Drawing On The Right Side of The Brain is an excellent book and if you follow her instructions and practise you will be able to draw what you are looking at. The neuro-science is a bit shonky but the technique works and very quickly too.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Nov 18, 2013)

I'd recommend trying a lot of different mediums: chalk, pencil, charcoal, ink and brush, pastels... Think of experimenting with the medium as well as the lines that you're making, it takes the pressure off and it can be useful for finding out what you like, what works best for you and what effects you can achieve.
Maybe look up some tutorials on youtube, there must be some. Drawing negative space might be a good one. I might look one up myself.
TImed exercises are good. Sit at a table and set a three minute timer, do a drawing of something ling around. Stop, set the timer again and draw a different thing. That's a good warm up, you should always have a warm up.
Try drawing something without looking at the page, the results of that one are always interesting...


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2013)

Practice, practice, practice! Draw everything you can and don't be afraid to throw away things that aren't looking right and start again. 

Taking a part time night course can prove a good impetus too.


----------



## heinous seamus (Nov 18, 2013)

I've been editing the mistakes out of some of my drawings on photoshop lately


----------



## ohmyliver (Nov 18, 2013)

Firstly, practice, practice and more practice. 

Secondly, it's all about the looking, if you've got the manual dexterity to write your name you can draw. If you look at expert drawers they'll spend about 80% of the time looking at what they see, and about 20% of the time about looking at what they're drawing.

Thirdy, it's not about making 'nice pictures' it's about drawing what you see, and being really strict with yourself on this respect. Don't forgive drawings that look 'good' but veer away from the reality of what you're seeing. Don't expect to make good or nice drawings at first. Just concentrate on drawing what you see, and correcting your drawing if it's moving away from that, because really, that's all that matters.


----------



## peterkro (Nov 18, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> Drawing On The Right Side of The Brain is an excellent book and if you follow her instructions and practise you will be able to draw what you are looking at. The neuro-science is a bit shonky but the technique works and very quickly too.


This is true,I was over forty before it even occurred to me to draw (years of being told as a lefty with weak wrists  I shouldn't even bother trying) it got me doing a reasonable sketch in no time.It's true the neuroscience is shonky but drawing upside down does work.


----------



## mr steev (Nov 18, 2013)

Another recommendation for 'Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain' from me too 

and practice, practice, practice


----------



## RedDragon (Nov 18, 2013)

practice, practice and practice again every single day - if only for a couple of minutes.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 18, 2013)

Yet another urbanite who'd agree that practice, as often as you can, really does help.

BTW expensive materials might make you feel like a proper artist, but cheaper ones can go a long way to removing the fear of wasting good materials on less than perfect pictures.


----------



## RedDragon (Nov 18, 2013)

Greebo said:


> BTW expensive materials might make you feel like a proper artist, but cheaper ones can go a long way to removing the fear of wasting good materials on less than perfect pictures.


It's not like_ everything _you produce will be a masterpiece. 

I have a stack of cheap photocopy paper and pencils dotted around the place - a clipboard is handy too.

Lidl has cheap drawing/painting materials once/twice a year.


----------



## wayward bob (Nov 18, 2013)

Greebo said:


> BTW expensive materials might make you feel like a proper artist, but cheaper ones can go a long way to removing the fear of wasting good materials on less than perfect pictures.



this is really good advice  i get horribly intimidated by a blank sheet of paper, especially nice paper  it helps me to work on the backs of old printouts or over the top of them. and the conjunction of old and new can make even a crappy drawing look more interesting


----------



## ChrisD (Nov 18, 2013)

Agree with above. .. suggest getting an open fire or shredder so you can get rid of old stuff


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 19, 2013)

Some absolutely excellent suggestions, thanks everyone.

Glad to hear praise for _Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain_ - I wasn't sure whether it was all hokum or not. I'll try to find my copy later tonight.

Timed exercises sound good. Giving yourself just a few minutes to sketch something specific, then moving on, rather than fretting about what you're doing if it's not great. I like that idea.

And the idea about not worrying about material quality. I've got a stack of printer paper lying around that I've been using, and I picked up some big jotters of cartridge paper a few years ago in a sale that's just been sitting there. I like that because it's got a rough texture and it's fun to draw on.

I feel so enthusiastic after reading all these comments. Being able to make pretty things has always seemed like this mythical thing that other, talented people can do - almost like it's utterly unattainable if you don't just happen to have what it takes. When you look at a painting or an illustration, the hours, weeks, months and years of hard work and constant practice are completely invisible, and all you're aware of is the immediate marks on the paper. That's really intimidating, and breaking it down in your mind to realise that all that practice is propping up the art is a crucial thing to keep working at. Because it's easy to forget.


----------



## mr steev (Nov 19, 2013)

ChrisD said:


> Agree with above. .. suggest getting an open fire or shredder so you can get rid of old stuff



Personally, I'd say keep your old stuff for a bit. Stash it away somewhere. Then, if at somepoint in the future you're feeling a little frustrated, dig them out to remind yourself how much you've improved


----------



## slightlytouched (Nov 19, 2013)

I found that after spending a whole year having to try and accurately represent what was in front of me I found the most enjoyment being released from that.  I ended up drawing / painting the aspects I wanted to highlight from what was in front of me.  I got the most enjoyment from that, and half the time it looked nothing like the real thing.  I've done the 'forge my own work' thing and the differences are interesting (10+ year gap).  I wish wish wish I'd kept way more than the few token pieces of work, so don't bin your old stuff!
My avatar is from when I went abstract!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 19, 2013)

Yeah, in terms of style, I'm not so interested in realistic representation as I am in more abstract and illustration styles. I don't really know what the correct terms are for different styles so I have no idea what I'm describing, really. But that's not especially important.

That being said, being able to look at something and then draw it so it sort of looks like it is the foundation that leads to everything else, I think.


----------



## slightlytouched (Nov 19, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yeah, in terms of style, I'm not so interested in realistic representation as I am in more abstract and illustration styles. I don't really know what the correct terms are for different styles so I have no idea what I'm describing, really. But that's not especially important.
> 
> That being said, being able to look at something and then draw it so it sort of looks like it is the foundation that leads to everything else, I think.


Indeed it is.....once you have control of your hand eye co-ordination you can move on to other things with far more confidence.....boring as it is!!


----------



## ohmyliver (Nov 19, 2013)

By trying to stick to drawing what you see and being really strict with yourself on this you'll develop your own style. Everyone looks differently, after all.   It's also easier to experiment with drawing once you've spent sometime trying to do it 'by the book' as it were, or "in other words being able to look at something and then draw it so it sort of looks like it is the foundation that leads to everything else." 

I meant to draw my daughter every day for the first 6 months of her life.  I sadly got bored of drawing her asleep (which was the only times she'd stay still enough to be drawn), I have a few drawings of her that were worth keeping.  I really should have polished my rusty hands and eyes as it were for a few months before hand.


----------



## ohmyliver (Nov 19, 2013)

Oh and practicing with really unforgiving hard mediums like biro is like training to play tennis in leaden heavy shoes.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 19, 2013)

Try not to think about drawing what you think you see but draw the shape that's left behind, think about the spaces between objects or figures and the shapes they make. Don't think top-down like how do I draw 'that' and make an image that looks like it's a 'drawing done by someone who knows what their doing' but feel free to scribble. Piss about with everything, shape, colour, texture. In your everyday life if you see something interesting, a face or a view or an object, if you're struck by something you see, think about how you could capture it. A man I work with (people with learning disabilities) draws every day. He uses biro, I give him big sheets of paper and he free draws the city he sees on his bus journey. Every drawing is different and every one is stunning, different themes and feelings, buildings, people and stuff.  I've saved them all for years, thousands of beautiful drawings done with a few biros. I want to animate them somehow but don't know how yet. Anyway I'm rambling but if you want to learn to draw, just do it, keep doing it and you'll find you're own thing.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 19, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Try not to think about drawing what you think you see but draw the shape that's left behind, think about the spaces between objects or figures and the shapes they make. Don't think top-down like how do I draw 'that' and make an image that looks like it's a 'drawing done by someone who knows what their doing' but feel free to scribble. Piss about with everything, shape, colour, texture. In your everyday life if you see something interesting, a face or a view or an object, if you're struck by something you see, think about how you could capture it. A man I work with (people with learning disabilities) draws every day. He uses biro, I give him big sheets of paper and he free draws the city he sees on his bus journey. Every drawing is different and every one is stunning, different themes and feelings, buildings, people and stuff.  I've saved them all for years, thousands of beautiful drawings done with a few biros. I want to animate them somehow but don't know how yet. Anyway I'm rambling but if you want to learn to draw, just do it, keep doing it and you'll find you're own thing.



That sounds amazing. If you ever do find a way to display them all somehow, I'd love to see them.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 19, 2013)

if you ever find yourself in need of a life model, i'd be happy to oblige VP, just give me the shout


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 19, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> That sounds amazing. If you ever do find a way to display them all somehow, I'd love to see them.


 
I will. I tried scanning them, sorted them out into themes and such. The man is a savant. Prolific. I've scanned loads of a4 but don't know how to do the rest which are bigger, incredible stuff. I see it every day and it's amazing, I take it for granted but I know it's special. And the guy used to have all sorts of behavioural stuff and now he doesn't, comes in, draws his thing and he's cool for the rest of the day. It's nice.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Nov 19, 2013)

ohmyliver said:


> Oh and practicing with really unforgiving hard mediums like biro is like training to play tennis in leaden heavy shoes.


Well, I disagree because i like drawing in ink and paintbrush. IT's unforgiving and the line is permanent, once you accept that you can embrace it and it makes you bolder. Or it does me anyway. With chalks and pencils I always think 'how can i imporve this line, can i smudge that there..' whereas with ink it's done, it's there, you move on.
I love smudging things too though so *shrug*


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 20, 2013)

Paul T said:


> if you ever find yourself in need of a life model, i'd be happy to oblige VP, just give me the shout









Not sure if come on...


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 20, 2013)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Well, I disagree because i like drawing in ink and paintbrush. IT's unforgiving and the line is permanent, once you accept that you can embrace it and it makes you bolder. Or it does me anyway. With chalks and pencils I always think 'how can i imporve this line, can i smudge that there..' whereas with ink it's done, it's there, you move on.
> I love smudging things too though so *shrug*



I do patterning with fountain pens and ink, or a rotring art pen. There's no going back, but because it's patterning I can pretend I meant that squiggle to be there, rather than where I really wanted it  Patterning is quite rewarding in itself, because it's easy enough, relaxing, and by the end of it it usually looks decently impressive, for very little skill outlay.

This is one I was working on earlier in the week (not finished yet):





That said, when I broke out some pencils I'd had lying around for ages, I was surprised by how much I enjoyed using them. Learning how to shade with them is a lot easier than with something more permanent, even if you're not erasing as you go.

I did this last week:





And while there's plenty wrong with it, I really enjoyed doing it, and I was mostly thinking about the effects that shading has. I learned a lot, even simple things like realising that the hair will be darker when it's behind other bits of hair, where bits pass over each other. Seems really obvious, but when you're not used to thinking like that it's quite the revelation.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using a medium that can be more forgiving, because having little victories and things you're proud of - even if they were helped in large part by the materials rather than your own skill - is a really good motivator. It keeps you buoyed up in the midst of a sea of frustration (I do get frustrated very, very easily - with all things in life - if I can't do excellently at them immediately. It's a personal failing).


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Nov 20, 2013)

Those are beautiful VIntage Paw.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 20, 2013)

Thanks.

I also learned that it's so much easier to draw proper shapes with pointillism than it is with proper lines. That bird's form looks like a child would imagine a bird to look like... until you get to the red dots... then it starts to look more like a proper bird's silhouette. You can keep adding to them until you make it look right


----------



## heinous seamus (Nov 20, 2013)

Looks like you can draw very well already!


----------



## Clair De Lune (Nov 20, 2013)

Yeah the cheek of it! you are already great


----------



## Cribynkle (Nov 20, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> I do patterning with fountain pens and ink, or a rotring art pen. There's no going back, but because it's patterning I can pretend I meant that squiggle to be there, rather than where I really wanted it  Patterning is quite rewarding in itself, because it's easy enough, relaxing, and by the end of it it usually looks decently impressive, for very little skill outlay.
> 
> This is one I was working on earlier in the week (not finished yet):
> 
> ...


Have you heard of Zentangles? They're doodles that are a bit like your first picture - there's a whole online movement around them which has a v annoying vibe but some of the resources are quite interesting


----------



## Clair De Lune (Nov 20, 2013)

zentangles eh...didn't know my style of doodling had a name


----------



## moon (Nov 20, 2013)

look up art journalling on youtube, there is a massive community there who play with colour, texture, form etc Its mainly dominated by women drawing pictures of women but France Papillon tends to work with more varied themes.. she is amazing.. http://www.youtube.com/user/francepapillon/videos


----------



## moon (Nov 20, 2013)

Journal artista is also amazing, I've learnt so much from her  http://www.youtube.com/user/JournalArtista/videos


----------



## Cribynkle (Nov 20, 2013)

Clair De Lune said:


> zentangles eh...didn't know my style of doodling had a name



The way that some of the online sites are is all a bit "by numbers" but I do love some of the work that comes out of it


----------



## Mumbles274 (Nov 20, 2013)

It's been said, but one thing I learnt at art college was the simple maxim

Draw what you see, not what you think you see


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Nov 20, 2013)

Cribynkle said:


> Have you heard of Zentangles? They're doodles that are a bit like your first picture - there's a whole online movement around them which has a v annoying vibe but some of the resources are quite interesting


 


It looks like an organized version of doodling with collector card trading of patterns.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Nov 20, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> That said, when I broke out some pencils I'd had lying around for ages, I was surprised by how much I enjoyed using them. Learning how to shade with them is a lot easier than with something more permanent, even if you're not erasing as you go.
> 
> I did this last week:
> 
> ...



Nothing wrong with that from where I am looking.

Personally, the best lesson I ever listened to came from a guy called Mark who worked at the Wallace Collection on projects for the homeless and others. It stuck with me for many reasons.

Very simply it is about setting time limits, loosening up and building confidence. Initially you give yourself 30 seconds. You know that whatever happens in 30 seconds isn't going to be brilliant. Use cheap paper to take money out of the equation also. Then, do another over 3 minutes. Then, another over 10 minutes. Then another over 30 minutes. Then, another over 1 hour.

Sketching isn't so much about copying a reality. It's about having the confidence and boldness to put your own expression on the reality.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 21, 2013)

Cribynkle said:


> Have you heard of Zentangles? They're doodles that are a bit like your first picture - there's a whole online movement around them which has a v annoying vibe but some of the resources are quite interesting





Clair De Lune said:


> zentangles eh...didn't know my style of doodling had a name





Yuwipi Woman said:


> It looks like an organized version of doodling with collector card trading of patterns.



Huh, I hadn't heard of it either. I googled it. I'm not entirely certain I like the idea of trying to stamp a name and ownership on something that everybody has been doing since time immemorium.  I shall continue to call it patterning. I have to say, I'm doing a bit of a grumpy face at the thought that people might say "oh, you're doing zentangles" and associate it with a community that claims ownership over a particular style.

Anyway, a couple of others I did - this one I never finished because I burped ink all over it (a couple of years ago, now):





And this one I'm in the process of finishing:





(Incidentally, I'd love to see other people's work... rather than this end up being a thread where I just keep showing off a bunch of my own.)


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 21, 2013)

moon said:


> look up art journalling on youtube, there is a massive community there who play with colour, texture, form etc Its mainly dominated by women drawing pictures of women but France Papillon tends to work with more varied themes.. she is amazing.. http://www.youtube.com/user/francepapillon/videos





moon said:


> Journal artista is also amazing, I've learnt so much from her  http://www.youtube.com/user/JournalArtista/videos



Thanks for those links. I have to say, I am a bit of a fan of all that Moleskine art stuff (it's generally lumped into Moleskine worship, which, while I do like them as journals they are expensive and there are others that do the job just as well, if not better). I've got a nice coffee table book called Sketchbooks (or something like that), that features a bunch of professional artists' ... well, sketchbooks. So the stuff they doodle and the rough ideas they have, etc.

I find it interesting that art done in a Moleskine journal/sketchbook has its own aura associated with it (in the Benjamin sense). It's like polaroids - scanning in a polaroid with the white paper frame included turns the picture into something else entirely. It's not about the subject matter anymore, it's about the whole thing as an artifact. I'm pretty cynical about it, but I also find it interesting, and admit to quite liking it. But still deeply cynical


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 21, 2013)

Mumbles274 said:


> It's been said, but one thing I learnt at art college was the simple maxim
> 
> Draw what you see, not what you think you see



Yeah, I think that's the point of that _Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain_ book (and others, no doubt). Trying to break that link between your eyes and brain that try to interpret the shapes you see into a 'sense' of an object and what it represents, and instead focus on what shapes and negative space make up the thing you're looking at. I find that really difficult to do, but hopefully it's something that will become easier with lots of practice.


----------



## Cribynkle (Nov 21, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Huh, I hadn't heard of it either. I googled it. I'm not entirely certain I like the idea of trying to stamp a name and ownership on something that everybody has been doing since time immemorium.  I shall continue to call it patterning. I have to say, I'm doing a bit of a grumpy face at the thought that people might say "oh, you're doing zentangles" and associate it with a community that claims ownership over a particular style.
> 
> Anyway, a couple of others I did - this one I never finished because I burped ink all over it (a couple of years ago, now):
> 
> ...


Beautiful work there! And you've articulated the issues I've got with the whole Zentangle movement, but it's good for me to be able to easily google the kind of drawings I like


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 21, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Nothing wrong with that from where I am looking.
> 
> Personally, the best lesson I ever listened to came from a guy called Mark who worked at the Wallace Collection on projects for the homeless and others. It stuck with me for many reasons.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you commented. I might think you're weird and ornery and prickly but you know how to make pretty things, you know your stuff 

Some good points there. Setting time limits, doing exercises ... I think it's a way of releasing yourself from that expectation of having to produce something that is worthwhile or looks good.

I'll admit that one thing that bothers me is what if I never develop my own style? What if I always end up relying on other people's work for inspiration? I know that it's pretty pointless worrying about that, it's like wondering if I'll be able to afford the right kind of running shoes before I can even crawl across the floor unaided. Still, it'd be silly to deny it's something I think about.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Nov 21, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Huh, I hadn't heard of it either. I googled it. I'm not entirely certain I like the idea of trying to stamp a name and ownership on something that everybody has been doing since time immemorium.  I shall continue to call it patterning. I have to say, I'm doing a bit of a grumpy face at the thought that people might say "oh, you're doing zentangles" and associate it with a community that claims ownership over a particular style.


 
I have a similar issue with "zentangles."  It has the same flavor as that white guy who copyrighted some translated materials from African religious traditions and then went on to sue the African elders who were teaching it.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 21, 2013)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I have a similar issue with "zentangles."  It has the same flavor as that white guy who copyrighted some translated materials from African religious traditions and then went on to sue the African elders who were teaching it.



Fucking hell, I hadn't heard of that.


----------



## wayward bob (Nov 21, 2013)

your work is beautiful vp, imho it _does_ have a personal style, just as your photography has. i don't think it matters that you're not the *first* to work in that style - let's face it pretty much everything in the art world has already been done by someone, somewhere. it makes sense to me with what i know of your eye from your photos - it all has a sense of coming from the same person. does that make sense?  (i'm mildly trollied ) 

it's funny, i'm having a bit of a drawing moment atm. like i said i'm allergic to drawing on the whole, it terrifies me, it never comes out how i'd like, everyone else's drawing is to my eye "better" than mine. but this term they asked us to work digitally so i figured i'd do my drawing on illustrator. it doesn't count as "real" drawing to the tutors - it's slightly seen as some kind of cheating, but i've _always_ been much happier with my results from illustrator, i like doing it, so i practice _for fun_  and the more i do the more i understand about how to make the marks i want and i'm starting to develop a style. i reckon the same principals apply no matter whether it's digital or analogue, it's all drawing.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Nov 21, 2013)

wayward bob said:


> it's funny, i'm having a bit of a drawing moment atm. like i said i'm allergic to drawing on the whole, it terrifies me, it never comes out how i'd like, everyone else's drawing is to my eye "better" than mine. but this term they asked us to work digitally so i figured i'd do my drawing on illustrator. it doesn't count as "real" drawing to the tutors - it's slightly seen as some kind of cheating, but i've _always_ been much happier with my results from illustrator, i like doing it, so i practice _for fun_  and the more i do the more i understand about how to make the marks i want and i'm starting to develop a style. i reckon the same principals apply no matter whether it's digital or analogue, it's all drawing.


 
There's no such thing as "cheating" in art.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 21, 2013)

Seriously, you don't even want to know what diabolical shit I come up with if I use my tablet in a digital program of some sort. I find traditional materials _far_ easier to get my head around, so none of this cheating malarkey. It takes absolute skill to understand first how the digital programs work, and second how to make something look good in them. 

On the subject of style - it's strange, I've never felt a cohesive style in any of the various arty things I've done, but others have told me they recognise one. Like in my photos, or even in the daft video game screenshot stuff I do. I certainly don't set out with a view to creating a certain type of thing, but perhaps it just happens anyway. idk.

I wonder if others feel the same way? If they don't consider they necessarily have a defined style when others recognise it in their work anyway?


----------



## wayward bob (Nov 21, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> On the subject of style - it's strange, I've never felt a cohesive style in any of the various arty things I've done, but others have told me they recognise one. Like in my photos, or even in the daft video game screenshot stuff I do. I certainly don't set out with a view to creating a certain type of thing, but perhaps it just happens anyway. idk.



i think it does happen anyway if you're doing something that really *makes sense* to you and if you put in the hours. lucky/talented people might get away with more or less of either, but as long as you do both persistently it will come.


----------



## jakethesnake (Nov 21, 2013)

With regard to warnings... don't go to a life drawing class whilst coming down off acid... the nude guy may make you feel uncomfortable (I kept catching his eye) that was my first experience of a life drawing class.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Nov 21, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> With regard to warnings... don't go to a life drawing class whilst coming down off acid... the nude guy may make you feel uncomfortable (I kept catching his eye) that was my first experience of a life drawing class.


 
You don't want to be throwing clay on the wheel when high/drunk either....


----------



## Corax (Nov 21, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Yet another urbanite who'd agree that practice, as often as you can, really does help.


IME that's very *very* true.  I am, and always have been, a bit rubbish at drawing from real life.  I can make some pretty shapes and patterns (often reminiscent of the stuff produced by psych patients actually ) but I've never been able to sketch an apple or a dog or whatever. 

Our art teachers at school were always proto-hipster wankers tbh, which didn't help.  I've loved art since I was diddy, but having my efforts mocked at the age of 11 by some twat wanabee kinda put me off, so I threw myself into drama instead.  

A couple of years ago I bought a sketchpad and some charcoal pencils for the princely sum of about £3 and spent a few weeks occasionally sitting in the local park trying to draw what I saw.  The park as a whole, a tree, a daffodil, a water-fountain, anything really.  I was astounded at what I was able to produce after just a few sessions of really trying.  It was still pretty amateurish by anyone's reckoning, but after a bit some of them looked like they were drawn by someone who could actually, well.... draw.  

It was amazingly relaxing too.  Really meditative.  Focusing on something like that really clears some of the crap out of your mind for a bit and gives your brain a break.  It was nice, and now I've seen your thread it occurs to me I should give it another go even though I'm unlikely to ever be framing anything - just for the enjoyment and peace of it.


----------



## jakethesnake (Nov 21, 2013)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> You don't want to be throwing clay on the wheel when high/drunk either....


Yeah, drugs and artistic endevour don't go together anywhere near as well as you might think they do.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 21, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> Yeah, drugs and artistic endevour don't go together anywhere near as well as you might think they do.


can sometimes be good for inspiration. Keep a notebook handy. Read it back to yourself when sober. Most of the time it'll be bollocks, mind


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 24, 2013)

I grabbed a copy of _You Can Draw in 30 Days_ - a foolish brag, methinks. However, it seems to take a pretty good approach to setting out little exercises that slowly build up various concepts. Basically, it deals with depth perception and perspective, through getting you to draw spheres, cubes, cylinders, and cones - getting slightly more complex with each lesson. (Then there are lessons on faces and hands at the end.)

So, for example, the first lesson gets you to draw a sphere. It teaches you how to think about where a light source would be, and where different types of shading would be, and slowly build them up to create the impression of a 3d sphere. Then, when you've done that, you go away and draw something that is based on a sphere. It gives you a photograph of an apple, but you can do whatever you want.

The next lesson gets you to draw 2 spheres, one just behind the other, so you learn about how the size of objects affects depth perception. Then you shade them again as before. And once you have your 2 spheres, you go on to draw 2 real objects that are based on spheres. It gives you a photo of 2 tennis balls as an example, but you can choose whatever you want. I drew the tennis balls, because I'm feeling lazy today.

That's as far as I've got with it so far. The next lesson gets you to draw a more complex arrangement of spheres, nestled behind and in front of each other. So, for example, a set of pool balls all racked up. It's really simple stuff, but I kind of think of it a bit like Michel Thomas' language method: giving you some basic tools and rules so that you can use them to create things for yourself.

Anyway, take a look at my balls:






Sorry for the crappy low-light photo. I'll probably scan it tomorrow. Rather boring drawings but I'm super happy with them. And that's what it's all about, isn't it?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 24, 2013)

Here we go, I scanned it in. I'm about to have a bash at lesson 3 - advanced-level spheres


----------



## Greebo (Nov 25, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> I grabbed a copy of _You Can Draw in 30 Days_ - a foolish brag, methinks. However, it seems to take a pretty good approach to setting out little exercises that slowly build up various concepts. Basically, it deals with depth perception and perspective, through getting you to draw spheres, cubes, cylinders, and cones - getting slightly more complex with each lesson. <snip> Rather boring drawings but I'm super happy with them. And that's what it's all about, isn't it?


It is.  

FWIW one secondary school art teacher (the nice one, not the sneery one) made us spend 3 double blocks drawing a single curled woodshaving (each) to teach us a grasp of light and shade.  I'm not sure how much of a success it was, but it certainly pushed home the point that everyone could draw if they thought about the light and shade on what they were looking at.


----------



## Oldboy (Nov 25, 2013)

Can I point you towards the Andrew Loomis books, the guy was a master illustrator and his books up until recently were super rare. Fortunately, his stuff is being reissued in print once again but the PDFs are freely available - http://www.alexhays.com/loomis/


----------



## Vintage Paw (Nov 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> It is.
> 
> FWIW one secondary school art teacher (the nice one, not the sneery one) made us spend 3 double blocks drawing a single curled woodshaving (each) to teach us a grasp of light and shade.  I'm not sure how much of a success it was, but it certainly pushed home the point that everyone could draw if they thought about the light and shade on what they were looking at.



Yeah, spending a lot of time on one subject really pays off. I agree with Stan, about just giving yourself a couple of minutes to sketch something then move onto something else - I'm finding that really useful, but likewise spending a lot of time really looking at something and considering just what defines it is a good exercise.



Oldboy said:


> Can I point you towards the Andrew Loomis books, the guy was a master illustrator and his books up until recently were super rare. Fortunately, his stuff is being reissued in print once again but the PDFs are freely available - http://www.alexhays.com/loomis/



I spotted those when I was doing my massive, endless trawl of Amazon's drawing books section, they have the facsimile editions. I think once I've moved on a bit and got some practice under my belt I'll give them a look, because they look great. I'll definitely take a look at the pdfs though, cheers!

Edit: Alright, I've just taken the quickest of looks at 'Fun with a Pencil' and I already love it - the stuff about drawing a circle  I respond well to stuff that doesn't take itself too seriously when it comes to art, because otherwise I feel overwhelmed and cowed by srs artists being srs.


----------



## Oldboy (Nov 25, 2013)

James Gurney's site is one of the best art blogs around - http://gurneyjourney.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## fishee77 (Nov 26, 2013)

Hi! i also want to share my experience, once i was inspired by nature so i came home and sterted to draw. I did it every day and i think i did it quite well. So my point is that everythink needs practice.
Good luck!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Dec 17, 2013)

So I've been enjoying playing around with lots of different things. I did a bit of watercolour stuff, just some abstracts to get used to the paint (and bizarrely someone on flickr said they want to buy one of them, which, wtf idek). Been doing lots more sketching just with a basic pencil, slowly working my way through that drawing book, but not slavishly so, because it's too much fun experimenting with all sorts of other things. 

And I got myself an evaluation copy of Corel Painter, which takes a lot of the pressure off because I'm not wasting any materials when I fuck up. 

A thing I made in Painter:


----------



## 8ball (Dec 17, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Here we go, I scanned it in. I'm about to have a bash at lesson 3 - advanced-level spheres


 
I especially like the advice regarding 'size'.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Dec 17, 2013)

That's precisely what I thought of as I got to that part in the book. I thought I'd write it down because there's always a danger my poor feckless brain will forget the whole smaller/farther away thing.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Dec 20, 2013)

Something I'm working on:





I used one of my Skyrim screenshots and traced the basic outline on a blank canvas in Painter. I'm referring back to the screenshot as I paint to keep me on track. It's a good exercise in learning how the program works, as well as how to build up colouring, shading and so on, without getting frustrated that I'm still not that brilliant at drawing line art etc. It's taken me a few hours to get to this point. I'm not certain I'm using the right brush for it, but that's what trial and error and lots of practice is all about.

I hate eyes. Hate, hate, hate.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Dec 28, 2013)

It's progressing.






Slowest painted portrait ever, probably.

Once I'm finished with the glove, blade and background, I'm going to open it in Photoshop and try to breathe some life into that dead face with the various skin brushes I've picked up on my travels. There is a dearth of brushes for Painter, unfortunately.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 1, 2014)

Saw in the new year finishing my painting:






Yeah, pretty pleased with it


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 9, 2014)

I have always wanted to be able to draw what I am actually looking at and not seem as though a ten year old as drawn it.
Although I have done some decent watercolours over the years, pencil drawing as always left me feeling unsatisfied.
Therefore I promised myself that I would teach myself to draw. I mentioned this to my wife and she gave me a copy of Drawing from the right side for Christmas.
I have spent my last days off getting a few bits and bobs together. I will let you know how I am doing.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 14, 2014)

I'd be interested to see how you get on. I've sort of ditched pencils and stuff for the moment, and thrown myself wholeheartedly into Painter and Photoshop. It seems a million times easier. It's almost like you're slowly sculpting the canvas, gradually layering up and refining more and more details. It feels quite natural. I find myself getting far too immersed in deviantART, but there's a lot of help and support on there.

For example, I found this brilliant tutorial on how to paint a realistic eye. I've been meaning to follow it for ages, because eyes... ugh... but was too scared  

I got around to it tonight though, and am really pleased with how it turned out:


----------



## heinous seamus (Jan 14, 2014)

Are you using a drawing tablet VP?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 14, 2014)

Yep. I got myself a Wacom Intuos4 a few years ago and was immediately intimidated by it and never used it. I'm glad I got it now!

Top tip: you can make your own replacement nibs using strimmer wire.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2014)

It's going to be a thing... eventually. Seeing it at this stage is really interesting. For me, anyway


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2014)

Well, it became this:






Not sure if I like it. But I was pushing myself to try a different direction, more painterly, less precise. I've got the preliminary stage above saved so I might try that more realistic style with it too, see what happens.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 15, 2014)

looks like you're getting on in leaps and bounds vp


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 17, 2014)

Thanks very much, bob. I'm a bit astounded by what I've achieved so far. After a lifetime of being convinced I have zero artistic talent, I'm slowly realising that talent means fuck all... it's _skill_ that matters, and skill can be learned. I can't imagine a day going by without pootling around making something now.

Anyway, like I said I was going to do, I took those eyes in another direction:






I had another version with some wank lines across it, trying to make it look a bit more... idk, purposeful or something, a bit graphicky, but I wimped out so this is the official (boring) version


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm not quite so good with mouths, it seems, but still I do quite like this...


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 18, 2014)

the mouth is fine, Vintage Paw 

if you have trouble w/ drawing any part of the face or body, studying anatomy is really helpful

I will have to try Corel paint. These are amazing! 

I love this one so much:


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2014)

Miss Caphat said:


> the mouth is fine, Vintage Paw
> 
> if you have trouble w/ drawing any part of the face or body, studying anatomy is really helpful
> 
> ...



Thanks Miss Caphat 

I've been spending just as much time looking at other pictures and various tutorials and references and so on (inc. anatomy) as I have actually drawing. You're right, it does help to understand what's going on under the hood when trying to make shapes right. Like, remembering the eyeball is just that - a ball - helps when shading the areas around the eye because of how the skin will sit around it. Really obvious stuff, but not if you've never had to think about it or put it into practice.

I've actually switched to using Photoshop more recently. The one you quoted was Corel Painter, as was the side portrait of my Skyrim character (with a bit of finishing stuff done in Photoshop), but everything since then has been CS5. There's a lot of interesting things that Painter can do, and I'd like to mess around with it more at some point, but for the moment I think I'm sticking with Photoshop, not least because it seems to have the most support in terms of people making resources and tutorials available that specifically reference it. And it's probably better to stick with just one program while I'm still at an early stage of learning so I don't bombard myself with too much. I'm also mostly sticking to just a couple of standard brushes. There are so many fancy ones out there, and I'm sure they all have their place, but it's too overwhelming to try to incorporate them into stuff atm, plus I think it's better to learn how to do what you want to do with a simple brush than it is to take the shortcut right off the bat. Taking the shortcut is fine, obviously, because it's all about utilisng the tools you have in the best way possible, but while learning I want to make sure I learn how to do things from scratch so I can break the rules and use the shortcuts in a more informed way later.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 18, 2014)

Thanks for the tips - I will look into that, a drawing tablet has been on my wish list for a long time.

I have to say, with all due respect Vintage Paw, this thread confuses me a bit. You must know that you're at a very advanced level as far as drawing, understanding shape, color, shadows, highlights, contrast, composition, and all that. Anyone who can "paint" like the above image that I quoted of yours, has to have had a lot of experience thinking about all this stuff, and must have had experience with drawing/ painting, even if it was not with formal instruction. I'm not sure why the lack of confidence?

As an art teacher (mostly teens, kids, & tweens, but some adults), I have given a lot of advice to people wanting to improve their drawing/ painting skills, and my advice is always to go back to the basics. A lot of people have to "unlearn" the way they have taught themselves to draw, often because they learn little tricks to make things look good, without really understanding the basic principles of _why_ they look good iyswim. I don't get that sense from you at all, which is rare. There are  a few little anatomical things with the facial structure in a couple of the pictures, but that's really a matter of practicing and looking more, as well as going back to the anatomy books.

Anyway, you have a great style, and I think you could/ already are be a fantastic painter/ whatever type of artist you want to be. You have a great sense of style, color, shape, form, and line. I would definitely go more with the "painterly" approach. It's sometimes fun/ challenging to see how perfect/photographic you can make an image look, but the more impressionistic ones express so much more.

Other than that, just keep doing quick sketches of everything. focus only on the parts that are most interesting to you, as if you're a camera...imagine that little box around the part you want to draw. the rest of the image can fade out of view, drawn in a blurry way or not at all.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2014)

(I didn't know you were an art teacher, Miss Caphat!)

I don't really know how to reply to any of that (and certainly not without being verbose, so sorry in advance).

*thinks*

On experience: I suppose I have experience _looking_ at art, particularly photography, and during that time I think I got a sense for when a picture works or is 'off' in some way, even if I wasn't able to translate that into good composition in my own pictures sometimes. Over the past 3 months or so I've spent an unhealthy amount of time browsing art, mostly on deviantART or tumblr. Once I made the decision that I would teach myself to draw/paint (I think of these as 2 different things, with some different skills involved - painting is easier imo) I added in lots of tutorials, how-to's, step-by-step process pictures to the mix of things I'd regularly look at. I've completely immersed myself in it, and I some things have sunk in so they are always there in the back of my mind both when I'm painting and when I'm looking at other people's stuff.

In terms of creating art, before I made that decision (as marked by the beginning of this thread) to learn the only experience I'd had was creating a few little ink patterns like this. I only completed a couple, and started maybe 4 or 5. That was a couple of years ago or so. Before that, and apart from some photography and 'screenarchery' (the wank name for taking nice screenshots of video games), I'd try my hand at watercolours or drawing or something as a kid and teen, and promptly throw the pencils/brush down in frustration after a couple of hours because I didn't automatically produce a masterpiece. That's the extent of my experience _doing_ arty things.

I used to think that you had to be born with talent. The phrase "I can't draw" or "I have no artistic talent" is a barrier in itself, because it encourages a certain type of thinking that ends up sabotaging any desire to learn. When I'd pick up a pencil and not be able to translate what I saw in front of me into shapes that represented that on paper I'd instantly get frustrated and think it was because my brain just didn't see things the way artists' brains do. I knew that artists have to practice and practice, but I always thought they at least started with some skill already there. Talent. 

I had a friend who lived across the road who, when she was probably about 12, drew a picture of an amazing dragon with a pearl in its mouth. I'd never seen her draw before, it just came out of nowhere. It wasn't perfect, but she clearly just _understood_ the relationship between shapes and so on. I couldn't do that. So I labelled myself as someone who has no artistic talent. My lines are wobbly, they don't start or end where they should, shapes are never what they should be. And that's all there was to it. I blocked off the possibility that it's something I could be good at. And any time I would pick up a pencil again, I'd fail miserably again, and give up the same day. It was a cycle of reinforcement.

Until the start of this thread, which is when I decided once and for all to learn. I think I'd been vaguely paying more attention to art and artists online for a while, noticing the odd thing one of them would say about talent being about learning skill, inspirational stuff about how if you could sign your name you could learn to draw. Maybe there's something different about me now than there was back then, and I'm more receptive to learning. I don't know.

When I started this thread, apart from immersing myself in other people's art, I started out with a really basic drawing book that gave me small tasks. It was incredibly useful, because it focused on how to give things volume with shading and rules of perspective, size and placement. When you talk about those rules they seem really obvious, but actually following the short lessons in the book made them reality. I haven't actually finished that book, although I intend to. 

I started itching to make finished pieces of art, instead of just practice cubes and spheres and so on. So I found my dusty wacom (oh yes, I forgot that failed attempt - some years ago I thought I'd be able to be an amazing artist simply by owning a tablet and when I opened my first Photoshop canvas and realised I couldn't draw from some innate talent it got put away in a corner and forgotten) and decided to try some digital painting. I realised that I'd imbibed some of the things I'd read and observed, and some of the things from the drawing book, and was able to translate that into creating shapes that had volume. 

Earlier I said I think of drawing and painting as two separate things. I still can't draw. What I mean by that is I can't do what my 12 year old friend did all those years ago - I can't look at something or imagine something and put pencil to paper and draw something that has all the right shapes in all the right relationships with each other. My lines are still wobbly, they don't start or end in the right places, my brain still can't translate what is in front of me through to my hand to create something that looks good, that doesn't look _off_. If I had a reference picture and an endless amount of time I might be able to, through lots of trial and error and erasing and redrawing, be able to copy something so it looked similar, but it would still look off to some degree. I have faith that with practice I can get better at this, though. But I still think of myself as someone who can't draw.

Painting (digitally at least) feels different. With the last picture I did, of the mouth thing, I drew a rough sketch underneath first. The proportions were dreadful (worse than in the finished picture), I went over the same lines multiple times because I never quite got them going in the right direction. But with painting, it sort of doesn't matter. Because when I start putting colour down I can move it around, erase it, change where the shading is, where the highlights are, over and over again so easily, until my eyes tell my brain (or the other way around), "wait, that looks about right". Painting digitally for me is like slowly sculpting the canvas. At first it looks like an unidentifiable mess - something the 'no artistic talent' me would make - but over time as I move colour around something begins to emerge, and all of a sudden there's a real thing there. 

I look at a lot of stuff on dA by people who are quite young and/or haven't had much practice and don't really understand form and so on, and I find myself thinking that the reason X looks flat and 'childish' is because they stopped at a certain point, and that if they'd have carried on slowly building up more and more, if they'd have thought about it in terms of the volume of the thing, it'd be a bit better. And then I realise that I know more than I give myself credit for. But that is simply because I've read and looked at so damn much over the past few months. When I look at pictures I think about what makes them work and what is stopping them from working. I can't necessarily translate that into my own pictures yet because I lack a lot of hand-eye coordination and I still can't get my hands and eyes and brain to cooperate with putting accurate shapes down (and I'm rubbish with composition), but it's something I'm always thinking about. It's this change in the way I think, and the sheer amount of stuff I look at, that has made it relatively easy to get to the point I've got to in this short time.

BUT - the things I've painted so far - with the exception of the blue portrait that you like - have all been done by effectively 'copying' a reference. They've either been following a tutorial to the letter, or using a guide picture. I did two portraits of Skyrim characters that I initially traced the outlines of, and kept them either underneath in a bottom layer or next to the painting while I was building it up. The eye I followed a tutorial for, same for the mouth. The half face thing I used a photo reference. Now, I know that this is a perfectly acceptable and useful way to go about learning, because - as I heard someone say recently - you can't draw a horse if you don't know what a horse looks like. What I do know I've become a lot better at is observation, and slowly, with lots of practice, that will aid me in being able to paint things without necessarily being so slavishly reliant on 'copying'. 

So the lack of confidence you describe - well, at the beginning of this thread I hadn't ever achieved anything like what I have now. I was very firmly and resolutely a person with no artistic talent. And even now, even though I _know_ I've produced some really nice things considering my experience and practice level - things I'm really very proud of - I still don't consider myself to be an artist, and I still don't put myself in the category of 'can paint' (and certainly not of 'can draw') because all I'm doing is observing a reference, following tutorial steps, and copying something. Without any of those things I wouldn't be able to do what I've done so far. 

It's also worth noting that I could probably have avoided a good chunk of this incredibly long and boring post by simply posting a link to this because I have it (it's part of the reason I quit my PhD).


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 19, 2014)

wow, Vintage Paw   there is so much there that I want to respond to! I am going to try tonight, to break it down, but if I don't get a chance to finish, and you don't hear back from me please don't think I've forgotten. I will be away for the next few days, and have a very long day on Tuesday.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 19, 2014)

Vintage Paw said:


> (I didn't know you were an art teacher, Miss Caphat!)




the extent of my teaching experience is this: I have taught a couple classes of kids and adults at a private studio, done some work as a private tutor for high school seniors applying to art colleges, and now I work at an afterschool program teaching art to preteens. most of my knowledge comes from the many years I was an art student myself. 



Vintage Paw said:


> I don't really know how to reply to any of that (and certainly not without being verbose, so sorry in advance).
> 
> *thinks*
> 
> On experience: I suppose I have experience _looking_ at art, particularly photography, and during that time I think I got a sense for when a picture works or is 'off' in some way, even if I wasn't able to translate that into good composition in my own pictures sometimes. Over the past 3 months or so I've spent an unhealthy amount of time browsing art, mostly on deviantART or tumblr. Once I made the decision that I would teach myself to draw/paint (I think of these as 2 different things, with some different skills involved - painting is easier imo) I added in lots of tutorials, how-to's, step-by-step process pictures to the mix of things I'd regularly look at. I've completely immersed myself in it, and I some things have sunk in so they are always there in the back of my mind both when I'm painting and when I'm looking at other people's stuff.




I would think photography would give one an excellent basis for drawing/ art in general. ok, this is making more sense now  



Vintage Paw said:


> In terms of creating art, before I made that decision (as marked by the beginning of this thread) to learn the only experience I'd had was creating a few little ink patterns like this. I only completed a couple, and started maybe 4 or 5. That was a couple of years ago or so. Before that, and apart from some photography and 'screenarchery' (the wank name for taking nice screenshots of video games), I'd try my hand at watercolours or drawing or something as a kid and teen, and promptly throw the pencils/brush down in frustration after a couple of hours because I didn't automatically produce a masterpiece. That's the extent of my experience _doing_ arty things.



well, those ink patterns are certainly a form of drawing, an advanced one at that, and you are very skilled at doing them  . please understand that I don't mean to dispute your experience, I just...I don't know, I just don't want people to feel like it's normal to just pick up a pencil/paintbrush/whatever and start creating art like you've shown here. I'm afraid that it sets a very intimidating standard for other novices! 



Vintage Paw said:


> I used to think that you had to be born with talent. The phrase "I can't draw" or "I have no artistic talent" is a barrier in itself, because it encourages a certain type of thinking that ends up sabotaging any desire to learn. When I'd pick up a pencil and not be able to translate what I saw in front of me into shapes that represented that on paper I'd instantly get frustrated and think it was because my brain just didn't see things the way artists' brains do. I knew that artists have to practice and practice, but I always thought they at least started with some skill already there. Talent.
> 
> I had a friend who lived across the road who, when she was probably about 12, drew a picture of an amazing dragon with a pearl in its mouth. I'd never seen her draw before, it just came out of nowhere. It wasn't perfect, but she clearly just _understood_ the relationship between shapes and so on. I couldn't do that. So I labelled myself as someone who has no artistic talent. My lines are wobbly, they don't start or end where they should, shapes are never what they should be. And that's all there was to it. I blocked off the possibility that it's something I could be good at. And any time I would pick up a pencil again, I'd fail miserably again, and give up the same day. It was a cycle of reinforcement.



ok, a lot of different thoughts here I want to respond to. First of all, what a shame 12 yr olds don't have the communication skills of people our age, otherwise she might have given you some clues about why she could draw this, and you wouldn't have spent your life with these self-limiting ideas!
 Now, I don't know this girl, but I'll tell you what I do know. 
People tend to draw best the things they are emotionally connected with/ invested in. Those connections lead us to create intricate visual memories of things, without even realizing it. The thing I drew when I first realized i "could draw" was a portrait, of a made-up woman. I was about 11 or 12 too. It wasn't anyone I knew. She had long, brown-black hair, brown eyes, olive skin, red lips. I painted her on a piece of paper with some crusty old paints. Looking back at it, I know that the reason I was able to paint this and have it look like a real person's face, is due to the way our brains and eyes work. Our facial recognition is amazing. I had been looking at faces my whole life. Studying them without realizing it. 
I would guess that beyond a doubt, that your friend had a very intimate relationship w the sort of image she reproduced, and that she had had a lot of experience drawing things like that dragon, at least. 
It is largely a myth that artists draw things entirely from their imagination. Most require long amounts of time studying the object they are trying to draw, or at least various references to that thing (for example if it's a fantasy scene of a misty mountain on mars, the artist might look at lots of misty mountain scenery on earth, and then add elements of perhaps other things they have seen in sci-fi etc) 

In any case, there is always some basis for what artists draw in things they have seen and attempted to draw before. Kids who ride horses and/ or love horses and spend a lot of time looking at their faces and the way their bodies move are way better at drawing horses...and unicorns, and similar animals . Kids who love superheroes and read a lot of comic books will be better at drawing muscle guys. People in general tend to have a much easier time drawing a woman's body and face from their imagination than a man's, because we see and analyze so many images of women's bodies and faces in the media all the time. 

Anyway, that was sort of a ramble, sorry. For so many reasons, though, when you think about it long enough, artistic skill does not come out of thin air. If you look back in history, people have seemed to 'copy' from one another. The best artists of any time period had similar levels of skill. In many ways, artists teach and show each other how to draw. It's a visual language. To think that it comes out of nowhere is like thinking a cave man could have written War and Peace, if he had the right tools and the vocabulary. It's just not how things work. 
There are prodigies, of course, but they don't exist in a vacuum.

It is also a myth that you need to draw straight lines or perfect circles or whatnot in order to be able to draw.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 19, 2014)

Vintage Paw said:


> Until the start of this thread, which is when I decided once and for all to learn. I think I'd been vaguely paying more attention to art and artists online for a while, noticing the odd thing one of them would say about talent being about learning skill, inspirational stuff about how if you could sign your name you could learn to draw. Maybe there's something different about me now than there was back then, and I'm more receptive to learning. I don't know.



That's all it really takes, is intent, focus, study, and being receptive. Yes, it is true that anyone who has learned how to write the alphabet can draw. Remember how daunting that seemed at age 5, or whenever? Remember how many times you had to practice before you could make an 'm' without looking at one that was already done? 
Ok, then think about how silly it is to try to draw a _tree _on your first try, and get frustrated and think you can't draw if you can't learn how to do it in one afternoon.




Vintage Paw said:


> When I started this thread, apart from immersing myself in other people's art, I started out with a really basic drawing book that gave me small tasks. It was incredibly useful, because it focused on how to give things volume with shading and rules of perspective, size and placement. When you talk about those rules they seem really obvious, but actually following the short lessons in the book made them reality. I haven't actually finished that book, although I intend to.
> 
> I started itching to make finished pieces of art, instead of just practice cubes and spheres and so on. So I found my dusty wacom (oh yes, I forgot that failed attempt - some years ago I thought I'd be able to be an amazing artist simply by owning a tablet and when I opened my first Photoshop canvas and realised I couldn't draw from some innate talent it got put away in a corner and forgotten) and decided to try some digital painting. I realised that I'd imbibed some of the things I'd read and observed, and some of the things from the drawing book, and was able to translate that into creating shapes that had volume.
> 
> Earlier I said I think of drawing and painting as two separate things. I still can't draw. What I mean by that is I can't do what my 12 year old friend did all those years ago - I can't look at something or imagine something and put pencil to paper and draw something that has all the right shapes in all the right relationships with each other.



Ok, wait a minute! This is clearly not true!!!! In drawing that woman's face from your mind, and also in your ink drawings etc, you created or re-created something without looking at a picture of that thing. And you stylized it to make it visually appealing. In a way that looks very polished and professional. This is why I'm so baffled that you don't think you can do this. I bet it's a million times better than what the 12 yr old's dragon (no offense to her)!




Vintage Paw said:


> My lines are still wobbly, they don't start or end in the right places, my brain still can't translate what is in front of me through to my hand to create something that looks good, that doesn't look _off_. If I had a reference picture and an endless amount of time I might be able to, through lots of trial and error and erasing and redrawing, be able to copy something so it looked similar, but it would still look off to some degree. I have faith that with practice I can get better at this, though. But I still think of myself as someone who can't draw.
> 
> Painting (digitally at least) feels different. With the last picture I did, of the mouth thing, I drew a rough sketch underneath first. The proportions were dreadful (worse than in the finished picture), I went over the same lines multiple times because I never quite got them going in the right direction. But with painting, it sort of doesn't matter. Because when I start putting colour down I can move it around, erase it, change where the shading is, where the highlights are, over and over again so easily, until my eyes tell my brain (or the other way around), "wait, that looks about right". Painting digitally for me is like slowly sculpting the canvas. At first it looks like an unidentifiable mess - something the 'no artistic talent' me would make - but over time as I move colour around something begins to emerge, and all of a sudden there's a real thing there.



ok, again I think you're being absurdly hard on yourself. but I'll stop harping on that. Drawing _is_ sort of like sculpting. and so is painting. Many teachers talk about this in depth.
What I recommend for you now is to get out and do some life drawing or figure drawing classes. Often these classes are offered on a drop-in, pay-per class basis. You might want to go to one where they give a little bit of instruction, so you can learn more about generally accepted approaches to drawing/painting. You need to get out of this cycle of expecting perfection and beating yourself up for not attaining it (in your own mind)
As Stanley & others mentioned, they will start out each drawing as a series of quick sketches from 30 seconds, to 1 minute, to 5 minutes, then to an hour. Some will just have you do 30 second sketches over and over. This is a great way to learn to see, and to learn how to draw what you see, and to break that inherent fear of failure or messing up.
The thing is artists never stop doing this, learning how to see, and how to draw what they see. The figure drawing class I drop in to sometimes has artists as old as 85, who have had successful careers for many years. They still need to do these exercises, to keep those skills sharp.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 19, 2014)

Vintage Paw said:


> I look at a lot of stuff on dA by people who are quite young and/or haven't had much practice and don't really understand form and so on, and I find myself thinking that the reason X looks flat and 'childish' is because they stopped at a certain point, and that if they'd have carried on slowly building up more and more, if they'd have thought about it in terms of the volume of the thing, it'd be a bit better. And then I realise that I know more than I give myself credit for. But that is simply because I've read and looked at so damn much over the past few months. When I look at pictures I think about what makes them work and what is stopping them from working. I can't necessarily translate that into my own pictures yet because I lack a lot of hand-eye coordination and I still can't get my hands and eyes and brain to cooperate with putting accurate shapes down (and I'm rubbish with composition), but it's something I'm always thinking about. It's this change in the way I think, and the sheer amount of stuff I look at, that has made it relatively easy to get to the point I've got to in this short time.



those are good observations...besides the stopping to soon and filling in/ creating volume, there is a lot of planning that goes into the composition too (i.e. if you're going to have a row of mountains and a row of tress in front of that and then some closer trees you have to do things in a certain order - seems simple but I still screw that up a lot and have to start over, and it seems like a very difficult thing for younger people to do- they often try to just dive right in)II still don't get why you're trying to convince me/ us that you're lacking in all these skills though  I do have eyes, you know, and I've seen just about every level of beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert work there is.




Vintage Paw said:


> BUT - the things I've painted so far - with the exception of the blue portrait that you like - have all been done by effectively 'copying' a reference.


 nothing wrong w/ that whatsoever. I would, like I said, try to do some more life drawing, and not be so attached to the idea of perfection there.




Vintage Paw said:


> They've either been following a tutorial to the letter, or using a guide picture. I did two portraits of Skyrim characters that I initially traced the outlines of, and kept them either underneath in a bottom layer or next to the painting while I was building it up. The eye I followed a tutorial for, same for the mouth. The half face thing I used a photo reference. Now, I know that this is a perfectly acceptable and useful way to go about learning, because - as I heard someone say recently - you can't draw a horse if you don't know what a horse looks like. What I do know I've become a lot better at is observation, and slowly, with lots of practice, that will aid me in being able to paint things without necessarily being so slavishly reliant on 'copying'.
> 
> So the lack of confidence you describe - well, at the beginning of this thread I hadn't ever achieved anything like what I have now. I was very firmly and resolutely a person with no artistic talent.



even though you're a skilled photographer who made elaborate ink drawings? you're starting to drive me a bit nutty here 



Vintage Paw said:


> And even now, even though I _know_ I've produced some really nice things considering my experience and practice level - things I'm really very proud of - I still don't consider myself to be an artist, and I still don't put myself in the category of 'can paint' (and certainly not of 'can draw') because all I'm doing is observing a reference, following tutorial steps, and copying something. Without any of those things I wouldn't be able to do what I've done so far.
> 
> It's also worth noting that I could probably have avoided a good chunk of this incredibly long and boring post by simply posting a link to this because I have it (it's part of the reason I quit my PhD).



I mean this with absolute kindness, but please don't tell me the story of you quitting your phd! I don't think I can handle it!  Was it because you were unable to discover the 5th dimension in six months, and therefore labelled yourself as a failure? 

Anyway, best of luck! you're a very talented person. Now go take some art classes!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2014)

Oof.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that <3

Quite apart from all the absolutely excellent advice you gave about classes and quick sketches and observation, I think you got to a really important point when you said:



> You need to get out of this cycle of expecting perfection and beating yourself up for not attaining it (in your own mind)





You're absolutely right, of course. I don't know how to stop thinking like that though, because it's what I've been like my whole life, with everything I've ever done. To the point where I sabotage my progress in some way so that I simply _can't_ fail (or not be the absolute best I can be) - can't fail through my own lack of ability because I stop myself from trying to begin with.

I _know_ that with practice and if I apply myself I can become competent and good and even accomplished at certain things, but I'm so damn scared of not being amazing that I find reasons to not ever get to the point where I find out the best level I can ever achieve is mediocre. 

I know it's ridiculous. It's fucked up. I don't know at what point in my life these neuroses started to form, but there it is.

I'm trying very hard with this, though. On the one hand I don't want to make more of it than it is, on the other I've found it to be helpful to recognise it.

Well, when all is said and done, when I post my pictures here I've been seeing each one as something fucking amazing because I never for a moment thought I could do something like that. I absolutely understand your point about it giving the wrong impression to novices... and yet that's what I still think of myself as - and that's where the cognitive dissonance between what I can do and what I think I can do comes in, I suppose. I'm feeling wracked with self-doubt, wondering if everyone thinks I'm pulling a fast one for attention or something. idk, maybe I'll let the thread die a bit, or try to change the emphasis or ... idk.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 22, 2014)

Vintage Paw said:


> Oof.
> 
> I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that <3
> 
> ...




I had seen this post on my phone over the long weekend, but didn't get a chance to respond properly. 
 I'm really sorry if it came across as judging you as being neurotic or anything like that. I think you're very talented and very dedicated, and that being really hard on yourself can be a good thing if you want to _do_ really incredible things. We only get one life, so why not? I am very obsessive and hard on myself/ all-or-nothing myself.
I do want you to know that you should continue with this, but that you can relax a bit, because you certainly have what it takes (and I'm glad you think it's amazing!). I would love to see what you're working on, so I hope you don't let the thread die


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jan 22, 2014)

I think, Vintage Paw, that you overestimate other people's skill.  A lot of what you see is mostly the result of repeatedly drawing the same thing, and a lot of starting over, erasing and redoing.  Even professional artists do a lot of this.  It's real work to be an artist.

Artists also use more "crutches" than you'd imagine.  Norman Rockwell would put people in the clothes he wanted to paint, take lots of reference photos, draw several test compositions, and then use a projector to put it on the canvas.  And then he still made changes on the fly as he was painting.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...how-technique-behind-master-article-1.1179719

Severin Roeson (19th century still life painter) would create little paper cut-outs he used repeatedly in different compositions.  He'd move them about and trace around them.  If you google images of his paintings, you'll find that he uses the same bunches of grapes or a little curly leaf over and over again. (He also liked to use glasses of wine  in his compositions, which he's well known to have partaken of quite liberally).

So give yourself some slack.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

Miss Caphat said:


> I had seen this post on my phone over the long weekend, but didn't get a chance to respond properly.
> I'm really sorry if it came across as judging you as being neurotic or anything like that. I think you're very talented and very dedicated, and that being really hard on yourself can be a good thing if you want to _do_ really incredible things. We only get one life, so why not? I am very obsessive and hard on myself/ all-or-nothing myself.
> I do want you to know that you should continue with this, but that you can relax a bit, because you certainly have what it takes (and I'm glad you think it's amazing!). I would love to see what you're working on, so I hope you don't let the thread die



Thank you, really 

I can't see me _not_ being really hard on myself, but hopefully I'll be able to tame it in a way that just pushes me to do the best I can, rather than stopping me from trying.

I'll keep posting what I paint... having this thread to look back on as I continue to improve and do new things should be quite a motivator, and hopefully make me feel pretty good. And of course, if you ever have any tips they'd always be welcome


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I think, Vintage Paw, that you overestimate other people's skill.  A lot of what you see is mostly the result of repeatedly drawing the same thing, and a lot of starting over, erasing and redoing.  Even professional artists do a lot of this.  It's real work to be an artist.
> 
> Artists also use more "crutches" than you'd imagine.  Norman Rockwell would put people in the clothes he wanted to paint, take lots of reference photos, draw several test compositions, and then use a projector to put it on the canvas.  And then he still made changes on the fly as he was painting.
> 
> ...



<3

Thank you, YW. I think you're right - part of my issue is that I don't realise how others (even famous artists) go about it and just assume some kind of flawless genius ability. 

Along the same lines as you wrote about Rockwell, I got a copy of one of Gurney's books, and in it he was describing the steps various old masters would go through - pretty much the same as you described. He was also saying that over the centuries they learned to paint by copying great works that went before them because it taught them to concentrate on working out how an artist had done X or Y. It's daft, isn't it? But realising that they were human too is a big step


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

Well, with my new leaf of "don't be so hard on yourself" turned over, I'll show you what I was working on the past couple of days or so:

 

I took what I'd learned from following the eye and mouth tutorials earlier on, and added in a really quick self-taught lesson on shoulders (first attempt so I know there are some anatomical issues but I'm happy with how they turned out nonetheless), and made a full portrait thingy. 

I'm learning how to use photo references for basic things like expression and lighting rather than completely copying them - for this I used 2 different photo refs: one of Meryl Streep for the face (see, it looks nothing like her, and isn't meant to, so I suppose that worked out well); and a random stock thing I found at a moment's notice to get the shoulders vaguely right.

The fact they are from 2 different sources explains why the lighting is stronger on the face. When working close up I didn't realise the difference was quite so stark - I far prefer the skin tones and shading on the body to the face, but you live and learn.

I also had a bash at using some skin texture brushes for this too... I've been a bit heavy handed with them but they bring a nice bit of texture to the skin. Here's a close-up of the face at full resolution so you can see some of the details.

Apart from a few niggles I'm really pleased with this.

I tried to do some sort of background but it looked naff, so I stuck with my tried and tested block of colour. I think next time I'll attempt to subtly shade the background. I was looking online desperately for something that would magically teach me how to create a nice background and came across this lesson - it's difficult to follow because of the format it's been written in, but there seems to be some interesting stuff there about portrait shading and backgrounds and so on, so I've bookmarked it to have a proper read of later.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

I should say, I'm trying to take your advice Miss Caphat about not going for extreme realism and to be a bit more painterly. I find it quite difficult, actually - it's easier to do realism somehow. I am hoping that as I get more confident that my strokes will get more confident as well, and I'll be able to find a bit more expression in the act of painting itself, rather than trying to hide the brush strokes by making everything blend together perfectly.

I _tried_ to do it here, but it's really hard for me. Baby steps.


----------



## heinous seamus (Jan 23, 2014)

How much are these drawing tablets? This thread is making me want to have a go


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

You can get them pretty cheap. The standard is Wacom. Their very nicest have a screen in them so you can see what your doing on the tablet - the Cintiq. They run steep. The cheapest of those is about £600, and you can pay £2k for the biggest.

I've got an Intuos4, which has been replaced now by the IntuosPro. No fancy screen, but I've found it really easy to adapt to. Straight lines are harder with a tablet than with a pencil, I think - but Photoshop has keyboard shortcuts for straight lines so who cares?  Small starts at around £180, I've got the medium which is roughly the size of an A4 piece of paper. I can't imagine needing anything larger than that, and smaller might get a bit awkward for bigger strokes. 

Then there's the old Bamboo line, which is a bit of a pared back version but just as serviceable. Cheaper than the Pro.

There are other non-Wacom brands but I don't often see much said about them. Wacom is industry standard as far as I can tell. Don't think you need the best to create the best artwork. There's some stunning stuff that's been created on a Bamboo. Hell, people are making lovely stuff using Sketchbook Pro on their iPad with a Wacom pressure sensitive stylus.

If you don't already have Photoshop, CS2 can be had for free from Adobe's website, you just have to tell them that you had previously bought it, but they don't check. Or there are evaluation copies of other versions. I believe the last one before they went solely cloud is CS6.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

Can't remember if I've said this in this thread or not, but if you get a Wacom don't pay for the expensive nibs (they are really expensive for what they are). Get some strimmer nylon line and make your own. My first strimmer nib has lasted so far longer than the Wacom versions


----------



## Ponyutd (Jan 23, 2014)




----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

Reaffirming my belief that all cats are dicks.

I also present you with:


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

And I just found this as well:


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 23, 2014)

i have to say vp that i'm green with envy at your progress  you clearly have talent, but more than that you have the desire to improve, to learn, to work your way through those tutorials, though your own hang ups, and that can take you a long way. i still make myself draw, i still hate what i produce, but equally i recognise that i have talent in my own particular areas. i have faith (mostly) that effort in = results out. 

for myself, i'm glad that i landed up on a course where drawing is seen much less as a prerequisite for everything else than it was in my first year, but i'm i'm genuinely chuffed at how you've pushed on, pushed aside your reservations, kept going, and i love refreshing this thread and seeing your latest stuff


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2014)

Thanks bob <3

Practically all my free time (which is all the time atm because I don't have any work right now) is spent devouring everything I can, whether it's looking at other people's stuff, reading things, looking for tutorials, just imbibing stuff as it washes over me I suppose. I hope I don't burn out. I'm not painting constantly - I try to get in a couple of hours a night, sometimes a bit more, sometimes I don't do any at all. None of it feels like work though. I mean, even when I'm sat with a cup of coffee scrolling through my tumblr feed I'm seeing stuff and bookmarking it or taking a few minutes to sit back and just _look_. It feels like I'm taking stuff in even when I'm wasting time on the internet, iyswim.

I think if I'd have gone to do proper classes it would have felt like 'you have to do this, it's homework' and I wouldn't have done it. But because it's just me relaxing in my free time it's a lot of fun. 

What's pushing me on is that amazing feeling of finishing a picture and leaning into the screen to look at it, and to think 'fuck me, I did that, that's a thing I can do!' That's a really powerful motivator. That's why I'm doing it - because it feels out of this world to achieve something that I previously never, ever thought I could.

I can see how, if drawing isn't the thing that you're most... er, drawn to *groan*... that having it as the foundation for a particular art-based course would be a real obstacle. What is it you're doing?


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 24, 2014)

Vintage Paw said:


> Practically all my free time (which is all the time atm because I don't have any work right now) is spent devouring everything I can, whether it's looking at other people's stuff, reading things, looking for tutorials, just imbibing stuff as it washes over me I suppose. I hope I don't burn out. I'm not painting constantly - I try to get in a couple of hours a night, sometimes a bit more, sometimes I don't do any at all. *None of it feels like work though*. I mean, even when I'm sat with a cup of coffee scrolling through my tumblr feed I'm seeing stuff and bookmarking it or taking a few minutes to sit back and just _look_. It feels like I'm taking stuff in even when I'm wasting time on the internet, iyswim.



this is very much me with college stuff atm, fucking great innit  although what with deadlines and them pushing us to keep going, never being content with where we are, not stopping until we're on the 4th, 5th, 10th version of something i'm constantly wishing for twice as many hours in a day. 

the course title is "artist/designer: maker", we basically have free access to every workshop/technician in the school. it's _very_ hands on which suits me down to the ground. drawing was a much bigger part of the textiles course where the vast majority were looking to be designers, which i guess makes sense, it's a foundation skill they'll be using all their working lives. our stuff is more about the materials/processes, finding how far we can take them


----------



## moon (Jan 25, 2014)

I love watching Sakuems paint, following artists on youtube is a nice way to learn new things..


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jan 25, 2014)

I see you've taken to digital drawing (is that a term? i dunno) but I saw this online course http://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/courses-and-workshops/introduction-drawing-techniques and thought of your thread.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 26, 2014)

That looks fun, thanks for the tip ShiftyBagLady


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 28, 2014)

Well, I abandoned something I had been working on for a few days because I kept hitting a brick wall. I've saved it so I can go back to it if I want, but I was getting too frustrated and it stopped being fun.

So tonight I started a new portrait, using a photo reference as inspiration (you can find the details of the photo - credit where credit is due - in the description under my picture on dA):






My sketching and lack of understanding about anatomy let me down, and after several attempts I ended up sketching the placement of the eyes, nose and mouth directly from the picture (as in from a layer over the top),. So that's something I need to practice, practice, practice - sketching lots and lots of faces, eyes, noses, mouths, trying to get proportions right. Still, even though I resorted to doing that I'm really pleased with the rest of it. I'm learning a little bit more about how to make the (digital) paint work for me each time. And this was my fastest piece so far.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Jan 28, 2014)

wow! so beautiful. I love so many things about it. I went and looked at the photo and it made me love what you did even more. I love the _suggestion_ of all the eyelets in the lace of the blouse, instead of feeling like you had to render them all in detail (beginners make that mistake a lot) I love the way some of the lines are stylized and make really intriguing shapes (like the highlight from the tip of the nose that runs down the top of the lip) and the eyelid. 
Making decisions about composition like that is really incredibly advanced! I'm floored, honestly. 
One thing I might have done is to make the eye that's visible a tad brighter, because when people look at portraits they really try to connect w/ the subject, but don't get me wrong the portrait has a ton of character and feeling  to it anyway. Also, hair, which you've done beautifully, is very tricky! I would add a few more highlights here and there.
But it's a really nicely balanced composition. amazing!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 28, 2014)

Thank you so much for the detailed feedback, Miss Caphat - it's something I really appreciate, very helpful!

I enjoyed doing the lace - I think if I'd have tried to be more precise about it it would have driven me crazy  

I took your advice to try to be a bit looser, and I really like the result. I saw a little not-quite-tutorial on dA earlier, someone who paints gorgeous portraits was saying what brush they use. So I replicated the settings and used just that one brush for the whole picture. It's a hard brush instead of a soft one that I was using before, so unless you go over areas with extremely low flow and opacity settings and very little pressure the strokes will always be visible to a greater or lesser extent. I think I'll stick with that method for a while, because it forces me to think a bit more about structure - each stroke seems to count more. And having the confidence to let the strokes stand as they are without blending them to death is... well, it's something I need to work on, but it is rewarding.

You're right about the eye. I think at the time I wanted the whole piece to be relatively subdued, but it could have popped a little more to create that focus as you say. The hair took me longer than I thought it would. So far I've generally really enjoyed painting hair and find it relatively easy (I get confused how hair grows when I get to the hairline though). With this I struggled a bit with the top, I couldn't quite get it to look right, but I don't think it's too noticeable. More highlights would have brought it alive a bit more, that's true enough. I think I didn't want to add anything more to it that might show up the problems I had with the hair, but I could have added a bit more.

I've since noticed I didn't shade the back of the neck where it gets covered by hair and it's really, really bugging me. I saved the .psd before I merged my layers* so I might go back and do it tomorrow, or I might just let it stand as it is and learn from it for next time, not sure.

* The beauty of digital means I can work in layers and not mess something up. The hair, clothing, skin, and background were all in their own layers, and while I was doing the smaller detailed stuff the eyes and lashes were as well because goddammit I really hate doing eyelashes and end up erasing them a million times and doing them again. If they are in a separate layer I don't end up screwing up anything else that's near them.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 1, 2014)

I made another thing:






again using a photo reference. These studies are helpful.

I lost that painterly feel... idk, I find it really hard. I'll keep trying though.

I didn't enjoy doing the hair, I found it quite tough. It turned out okay for the most part, except the bit on the right. Ugh. Don't look at that bit. Or the bit that sticks out. Ugh. 

I made the eye a bit brighter


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 3, 2014)

Despite my recent successes, I'm aware I'm relying heavily on references. So I wanted to put into practice some of the things I've learned recently and try a really quick portrait from the imagination, with no references at all, to see if I can remember where shadows and highlights go, and roughly how the proportions of the face should look (although this isn't aiming for precise realism). This took probably just over an hour, hour and a half.

It's not that great, and I can see places where I need to pay more attention (under the eye and top of the cheek doesn't quite get the shading right, for example; I also had quite a bit of trouble getting the shape of the eye right; etc.).

So there you go, proof that I'm not all that 

I really like the loose style of this dA user so it was largely inspired by their style. My first attempt, so I'm not being too hard on myself. I might aim for one of these a day, a really quick smashing down of colours to see what happens.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Feb 3, 2014)

Vintage Paw 

your portraits are all so beautiful, stunning, really. It makes me want to try a tablet, but afraid I won't be anywhere near as good as you  
I would highly recommend switching back and forth between your tablet and traditional materials (pencil and paper, paint, etc) so that your skills are all developing at the same time. 
My sense is that if you were to master these skills with actual paint on canvas, or whatever, you could be really successful.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Feb 3, 2014)

also, and I don't want to insult your intelligence, because I think you know this, but do some practice on fabric folds and hair, either if it's finding a way to just "suggest" them or to do them flawlessly.
those two things are really tricky, as well as hands. I never really mastered any of them.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 3, 2014)

Miss Caphat said:


> Vintage Paw
> 
> your portraits are all so beautiful, stunning, really. It makes me want to try a tablet, but afraid I won't be anywhere near as good as you
> I would highly recommend switching back and forth between your tablet and traditional materials (pencil and paper, paint, etc) so that your skills are all developing at the same time.
> My sense is that if you were to master these skills with actual paint on canvas, or whatever, you could be really successful.



Thank you, Miss Caphat 

You'd be far better, because you understand things I don't and have had lots of practice! 

I'd be interested to see if I could do the same sort of thing with acrylics - it'd be a scary prospect, not having the undo button. At the very least I'm trying to do a bit of pencil sketching alongside the digital stuff, because the main thing that I'm lagging behind in is simply being able to draw shapes to make them look like they should. For my digital portraits I'm starting to try the grid method at the moment to line up my eyes and proportions etc., with what I see in the reference picture, rather than getting so frustrated with my freehand sketching and resorting to tracing the main features. It's a step in the right direction, I think. And then things like the quick portrait above helps solidify some of that because it's all from the imagination. I know it's the actual drawing part that will be the slowest to progress, so I'm trying to not get too disheartened with it, and keep practicing.



Miss Caphat said:


> also, and I don't want to insult your intelligence, because I think you know this, but do some practice on fabric folds and hair, either if it's finding a way to just "suggest" them or to do them flawlessly.
> those two things are really tricky, as well as hands. I never really mastered any of them.



You're absolutely right. The hair in particular is something that I both enjoy doing and find difficult. I didn't the first few times I did it, it was quite easy, but I think it was with styles and poses that made it easy. I have a hard time working out how hair grows, and just how to represent that. I'm trying to look very carefully at other paintings of hair to see how they've done it. For fabric, I think the bottom left beige part of the scarf in the other portrait came out the best, that was the part I did first and it was quite simple. The pink and purple bits gave me more problems - I got some of the folds right, many of them wrong. Again, I'm trying to keep studying what shapes make up the folds and so on in other paintings. 

As for hands *hisses* ... I hate hands. I have a painting in mind that I want to do. I have a vague reference for it, but I want to add a hand in there too because I think it would be quite interesting. The hand would be palm out, I guess pressing on the glass of the screen or camera or something, facing the viewer... difficult to explain. And no doubt difficult to paint. I probably will attempt it, but the hand might get scrapped if I get too frustrated with it XD


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 4, 2014)

Selfie, lol






Ugh. 

Tones are all over the place. Glasses were surprisingly easy and came out pretty darned well I think. Should have spent more time on the chin. Could have made the eye a bit bigger but I have small eyes, so.... Nose was the hardest, stupid fat nose. I don't think it's quite that big in reality but I'd used a grid over a photo to sketch out the placement of my features in a grid on my canvas and that's what it said it looked like so that's what I painted. I blame the angle. Yeah, the angle >_>

Not doing one of these again for a good long while 

Took about 3 hours.


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 4, 2014)

That's great


----------



## Greebo (Feb 4, 2014)

It's a good attempt (far better than I'd be able to do in twice that amount of time) and self portraits are seldom kind.


----------



## Miss Caphat (Feb 6, 2014)

Amazing! 
The eye through the glasses is perfect! That's really hard to do! I love the expression, it says so much.


----------



## Corax (Feb 16, 2014)

The stuff on this thread is far too good, it makes me sadface. 

But fuck it. I bought a stylus for my Nexus today, and downloaded a free sketching app. So, this is my first effort - my cat:


----------



## moon (Apr 25, 2014)

I joined a mixed media folk art type online course recently, here are a few things I've made


----------



## Miss Caphat (Apr 26, 2014)

Vintage Paw I've been wondering how this has been going...would love to see what you've been working on.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 27, 2014)

Hints: draw.
Tips: keep drawing.
Warning: don't stop drawing.

If i'd carried on drawing from when I was a kid, well I'd be  a lot better than I am now.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 27, 2014)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yep. I got myself a Wacom Intuos4 a few years ago and was immediately intimidated by it and never used it. I'm glad I got it now!
> 
> Top tip: you can make your own replacement nibs using strimmer wire.


What are the hardware requirements of such a thing. Do they come with specific software or do you have to go out and buy it separately?


----------



## moon (May 15, 2014)

I've made a few more pictures
Mixed-Media papercut collage inspired by Anna Dabrowska and Karl Blossfeldt





Everyone should have butterflies in their hair





Wading bird


----------



## RoyReed (May 15, 2014)

moon said:


> I've made a few more pictures
> Mixed-Media papercut collage inspired by Anna Dabrowska and Karl Blossfeldt
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 8, 2016)

I stopped. Because I do that. I'm a bit rubbish at working hard. Stupid brain.

Anyway, I started again. Haven't drawn or painted probably since I posted here last. Done a couple of silly doodle things, trying to remember some of the things I learned before.

James Gurney had an entry on his blog recently about doing high contrast studies to help you learn light and shadow without worrying about detail, so I just knocked one out (hurr).



Of course digital painting is more forgiving in this instance than traditional stuff. But I find it easier to draw with a real pencil than draw in photoshop. A lot of people scan line work so the get the best of both worlds.

Anyway, took me about an hour. Went over some areas until the proportions looked okay, cuz I'm shit at getting it right first time (or second, or third). Going to try to do one of these quite often. Scouring the internets for suitable pictures to reference since I don't have a ready supply of people willing to sit in the corner of my room looking photogenic.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 8, 2016)

Oh yeah, and I did this masterpiece while trying to decide which brush to use.

 

His name is Harold.


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 8, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> Oh yeah, and I did this masterpiece while trying to decide which brush to use.
> 
> View attachment 83167
> 
> His name is Harold.


Hi Harold


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 10, 2016)

Yesterday I didn't like this; today I like this.



I'm not confident with strokes, so everything ends up looking blurry and ill-defined. That's particularly evident in the previous picture I posted (although not so much when viewed up close).

I went back into this one and tried to better define certain areas by cutting in with some stronger strokes. Eventually I hope I'll have that confidence on the first pass, but for now I'm happy enough I'm realising some of the things that will make a difference, and trying to apply them at some point.

I'm trying to be more angular, rather than attempting to get the contours and shapes smooth and realistic.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 11, 2016)

Took longer than I expected. Started using extra tones, rather than just 2. It didn't work at first, but I think it's okay with a bit of messing.

 

Eye's a bit weird, and let's not talk about that thing that is meant to be a hand


----------



## Calamity1971 (Feb 11, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> Took longer than I expected. Started using extra tones, rather than just 2. It didn't work at first, but I think it's okay with a bit of messing.
> 
> View attachment 83289
> 
> Eye's a bit weird, and let's not talk about that thing that is meant to be a hand


You have some major talent there vp. I like Harold,  but can he have a friend please


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 12, 2016)

I don't know about talent, but I'm trying to develop some skill, we'll see what happens. I find the simplest of things unbelievably trying and difficult. Thank you, though 

I tried a 'fan art' - gawd.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 12, 2016)

moon, are you still painting? I'd love to see what you've been up to lately.


----------



## moon (Feb 12, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> moon, are you still painting? I'd love to see what you've been up to lately.


Yes mostly in this thread
2015 art thread
and some here
2016 Art Thread
Although I really hate the last thing I painted 'Pink lady', it was made for a really bad online class.
I'm doing a lot of sketching and art journaling at the moment and also working on paper crafting, but will be starting a new painting this weekend hopefully.. 
Good to see that you've taken up painting again, the shading is very good.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 12, 2016)

I didn't know those threads existed 

I'll move over there.


----------

