# EDL in Tower Hamlets on 20/06



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 8, 2010)

I can't find anything else about this.

The EDL have announced that they are going to be protesting in Tower Hamlets on the 20th of this month, in opposition to a the UK Islamic Conference happening at the Troxy venue.

http://uk-ic.com/

This has obviously now caused the UAF and others to call for a mass demo to stop the EDL from marching in what is clearly a very provocative place.  Concerns that the EDL intend to march onto the East London Mosque are rife.

However, as usual, there seems to be very little critique of the Troxy conference amongst the traditional left (SWP, UAF, Stop the War) who are all focussing on their usual "EDL = Nazi's" line.   We must remember this is a conference which has not been allowed to take place in the mosque or nearby muslim centre, instead having to book a concert venue.  It's a conference hosting such characters as Bilal Philips, below seen telling us that Aids is god's 'devine retribution' on homosexuals and that Islamic Law calls for all queers to be put to death.

http://gaymuslims.org/2007/01/15/bilal-philips-video/

The only group who I can see that are coming out with a progressive line are the Whitechapel Anarchist Group, who are calling for both divisive elements to be run out of town.  The Racists in the EDL and the Homophobes and Sexists in the conference. Alas I don't think this is going to make them many friends in the UAF etc.

http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpress.com/

I'm with them 100%, without addressing the route causes of EDL recruitment we will never defeat them.  We must stop the EDL from marching through east London (they are billing it on their forums as Cable Street Mk2), however we must be clear in our approach and reject all forms of discrimination, not just picking the easy option of calling the EDL hooligans a bunch of Nazi's.



> NO TO UK ISLAMIC CONFERENCE SPEAKERS! NO TO THE ENGLISH DEFENCE LEAGUE!
> 
> On Sunday 20th June 2010 extremists from both the UK Islamic Conference (UK-IC) and the English Defence League (EDL) threaten to invade our local community in Tower Hamlets. Neither of these groups originates from this area but attempt to recruit, divide and create trouble spreading their respective poisons. To this we say NO.
> 
> ...


----------



## Dan U (Jun 8, 2010)

tbh in a Borough that is over 30% Bangladeshi, i think UAF will be the least of the worries the EDL have that day.

think the anarchists have it right opposing both fwiw, could be quite a confusing day.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 8, 2010)

the "easy option" of just calling the EDL Nazis? as if it's not so much easier to wax lyrical about how 'both sides are wrong'...

you've really got a twisted perspective on things if you think it is any kind of priority for the non-Muslim left to start opposing paltry little gatherings of social rejects like this Troxy thing. not only is it not our place to go around trying to sort out the Islamic 'house', it also does exactly what the EDL want by isolating a group of people who 'everybody hates' and bashing them as an indirect attack on the Islamic community as a whole. what are the EDL actually saying with this demo? "know your place". tbh we can really do without thick-as-shit anarchists wanking off with their frankly liberal bullshit.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 8, 2010)

Das Uberdog, I don't know wheer to start challenging your bullshit. The beginning I guess but it's all a stinky turd sandwich.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 8, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> the "easy option" of just calling the EDL Nazis? as if it's not so much easier to wax lyrical about how 'both sides are wrong'...
> 
> you've really got a twisted perspective on things if you think it is any kind of priority for the non-Muslim left to start opposing paltry little gatherings of social rejects like this Troxy thing. not only is it not our place to go around trying to sort out the Islamic 'house', it also does exactly what the EDL want by isolating a group of people who 'everybody hates' and bashing them as an indirect attack on the Islamic community as a whole. what are the EDL actually saying with this demo? "know your place". tbh we can really do without thick-as-shit anarchists wanking off with their frankly liberal bullshit.



Calling the EDL nazi's simplifies the whole thing to a black and white choice between the EDL and radical Islam.  The reason the EDL are gaining support is that they are able to wrap up their extreme nationalist stance in all manner of other clothes (they even have an LGBT wing ffs).  Unless the left starts to have a consistent approach to dealing with things like the situation developing in Tower Hamlets then it loses all legitimacy.  Refusing to address the blatant homophobia, sexism and other vile things being promoted in the Troxy event (which is the reason for the EDL protest) and simply calling the EDL racist makes any counter protest come out as apologist for that behaviour.

It's got fuck all to do with saying 'know your place', if the EDL weren't demonstrating outside this conference, then we probably should have been anyway.  As it is, it's being used as a launch pad for a group of football firms to come into tower hamlets and cause further division.  

A plague on both of their houses!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

Although it's right to oppose both the EDL and the Islamists, I'm not too sure how you can pull off a protest that says "we are protesting against radical Islam, but you're not allowed to!"


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2010)

It's not supposed to say that -  'allowed' is neither here nor there.


----------



## rioted (Jun 8, 2010)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> Refusing to address the blatant homophobia, sexism and other vile things being promoted in the Troxy event (which *is the reason* for the EDL protest)


No it's not.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> It's not supposed to say that -  'allowed' is neither here nor there.



Ok, I'll rephrase it.

"We're protesting against the Islamists but protesting against the EDL for purportedly doing the same."


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 8, 2010)

how about

"We're protesting against both of you outsider divisive elements coming into the area we live and trying to shit stir, neither of your groups are from here, you're both bussing in people in the hope of causing further division in our community.  You should both fuck off and take your backwards, nasty opinions with you."


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 8, 2010)

rioted said:


> No it's not.



yes it it

they are basically saying "the EDL are Nazi's, erm that's all, nothing else to see here, everything else is just chipper" which is not the case


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 8, 2010)

sorry, missed your bolding there

yes, perhaps it's not the reason, but it is the public excuse they're using


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Ok, I'll rephrase it.
> 
> "We're protesting against the Islamists but protesting against the EDL for purportedly doing the same."



So where's the problem - you're allowed to disagree with things in public.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So where's the problem - you're allowed to disagree with things in public.



They're actually agreeing with the EDL.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2010)

No they're not.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

> The EDL have announced that they are going to be protesting in Tower Hamlets on the 20th of this month, in opposition to a the UK Islamic Conference happening at the Troxy venue.



So they agree that the conference should be opposed, just not by the EDL. I'll accept the point that the EDL have a divisive approach and the WA don't.


----------



## the button (Jun 8, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> They're actually agreeing with the EDL.



Pandering.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 8, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> So they agree that the conference should be opposed, just not by the EDL. I'll accept the point that the EDL have a divisive approach and the WA don't.



I don't think 'divisive approach' quite covers the riots that the EDL have been causing up and down the country, rolling in by coach, smashing the place up, goose stepping and calling for the shutting down of all mosques.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

Very confusing. It's just down the road from me so I'll probably pop along. Although I have a mate visiting so it does depend a bit on how heavy the saturday night is.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2010)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> I don't think 'divisive approach' quite covers the riots that the EDL have been causing up and down the country, rolling in by coach, smashing the place up, goose stepping and calling for the shutting down of all mosques.



I accept that. I just mean their stated protest the WA agree with. I don't dispute that the EDL are being disingenuous though.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Jun 9, 2010)

They will never get out alive after George, Weyman and Martin have done their work.


----------



## treelover (Jun 9, 2010)

so, the Trots are going to defend Islamist ultras, who even other muslim groups have denounced, this is going to be a significant move in the slow but speeding up decline of the far left, of course they will spin it as the Second Battle Of Cable St or something, but ultimately unless they challenge the Fundis, the people who will lose apart from them, will be the general muslim population as the EDl gets a massive propaganda boost esp if the ultras denounce the soldiers in Afghan or call for attacks on Uk if we help blockade Gaza as is being proposed, etc. Further, as others have pointed out, local people will respond robustly to the EDL, (though TV images will make it look like race war), but if the left doesn't also picket this event then it is fucked.


----------



## treelover (Jun 9, 2010)

> they are billing it on their forums as Cable Street Mk2




btw, are you sure about this, the EDL try to distance themselves from the fascists/blackshirts, etc why would they implicate themselves?


----------



## treelover (Jun 9, 2010)

Uberdog, you are pathetic,


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

anyone who can't comprehend how counter-productive it would be for the left to start actively pursuing powerless Islamisist sects, whose retrogressive political opinions though isolated still represent a genuine grievance with society on behalf of the Islamic community, are too moronic for me to even attempt conversation with.

yeah, you go ahead and protest against Islamic extremism 'from the left', applying yet further pressure on a marginalized community to declare their solidarity with soppish liberal values against evIL Islamist authoritarians. it's so ridiculous it's untrue. what fucking planet are you on? just because you're too fucking cowardly to actually defend the Islamic community properly (which involves understanding that oppressed communities often turn towards reactionary ideas, and that the way to wean them off these is not to seemingly join in with establishment demands that as a community they must 'know their place') and take hard arguments to the rest of the working class, you cave to general public pressure and join the rancorous denunciation of specific 'alien' values.


----------



## Davo1 (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> anyone who can't comprehend how counter-productive it would be for the left to start actively pursuing powerless Islamisist sects, whose retrogressive political opinions though isolated still represent a genuine grievance with society on behalf of the Islamic community, are too moronic for me to even attempt conversation with.
> 
> yeah, you go ahead and protest against Islamic extremism 'from the left', applying yet further pressure on a marginalized community to declare their solidarity with soppish liberal values against evIL Islamist authoritarians. it's so ridiculous it's untrue. what fucking planet are you on? just because you're too fucking cowardly to actually defend the Islamic community properly (which involves understanding that oppressed communities often turn towards reactionary ideas, and that the way to wean them off these is not to seemingly join in with establishment demands that as a community they must 'know their place') and take hard arguments to the rest of the working class, you cave to general public pressure and join the rancorous denunciation of specific 'alien' values.




(((((((((((((((what fucking planet are you on))))))))))))))))))))))))?


Stupid cunt...... Stupid, stupid cunt!

:facepalm


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> anyone who can't comprehend how counter-productive it would be for the left to start actively pursuing powerless Islamisist sects, whose retrogressive political opinions though isolated still represent a genuine grievance with society on behalf of the Islamic community, are too moronic for me to even attempt conversation with.
> 
> yeah, you go ahead and protest against Islamic extremism 'from the left', applying yet further pressure on a marginalized community to declare their solidarity with soppish liberal values against evIL Islamist authoritarians. it's so ridiculous it's untrue. what fucking planet are you on? just because you're too fucking cowardly to actually defend the Islamic community properly (which involves understanding that oppressed communities often turn towards reactionary ideas, and that the way to wean them off these is not to seemingly join in with establishment demands that as a community they must 'know their place') and take hard arguments to the rest of the working class, you cave to general public pressure and join the rancorous denunciation of specific 'alien' values.



You odious racist.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> anyone who can't comprehend how counter-productive it would be for the left to start actively pursuing powerless Islamisist sects, whose retrogressive political opinions though isolated still represent a genuine grievance with society on behalf of the Islamic community, are too moronic for me to even attempt conversation with.
> 
> yeah, you go ahead and protest against Islamic extremism 'from the left', applying yet further pressure on a marginalized community to declare their solidarity with soppish liberal values against evIL Islamist authoritarians. it's so ridiculous it's untrue. what fucking planet are you on? just because you're too fucking cowardly to actually defend the Islamic community properly (which involves understanding that oppressed communities often turn towards reactionary ideas, and that the way to wean them off these is not to seemingly join in with establishment demands that as a community they must 'know their place') and take hard arguments to the rest of the working class, you cave to general public pressure and join the rancorous denunciation of specific 'alien' values.



So we shouldn't oppose people who encourage wife beating and death to the gays as people who are marginalised sometimes need to escape to those kind of ideas?

You reprehensible cunt. How are you supporting this community again?


----------



## the button (Jun 9, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> So we shouldn't oppose people who encourage wife beating and death to the gays as people who are marginalised sometimes need to escape to those kind of ideas?



No shibboleths, comrade.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> the "easy option" of just calling the EDL Nazis? as if it's not so much easier to wax lyrical about how 'both sides are wrong'...
> 
> you've really got a twisted perspective on things if you think it is any kind of priority for the non-Muslim left to start opposing paltry little gatherings of social rejects like this Troxy thing. not only is it not our place to go around trying to sort out the Islamic 'house', it also does exactly what the EDL want by isolating a group of people who 'everybody hates' and bashing them as an indirect attack on the Islamic community as a whole. what are the EDL actually saying with this demo? "know your place". tbh we can really do without thick-as-shit anarchists wanking off with their frankly liberal bullshit.


on the one hand you seem to suggest you're not of the moslem persuasion, on the other hand you imply you are. not that what you have to say in either stance is persuasive.

the reason it's 'the place' of the whitechapel anarchist group to take a stand on this is that the troxy ain't a million miles from whitechapel - it's local for them. 

that bit about some people being thick as shit? i think you're projecting.



Das Uberdog said:


> anyone who can't comprehend how counter-productive it would be for the left to start actively pursuing powerless Islamisist sects, whose retrogressive political opinions though isolated still represent a genuine grievance with society on behalf of the Islamic community, are too moronic for me to even attempt conversation with.
> 
> yeah, you go ahead and protest against Islamic extremism 'from the left', applying yet further pressure on a marginalized community to declare their solidarity with soppish liberal values against evIL Islamist authoritarians. it's so ridiculous it's untrue. what fucking planet are you on? just because you're too fucking cowardly to actually defend the Islamic community properly (which involves understanding that oppressed communities often turn towards reactionary ideas, and that the way to wean them off these is not to seemingly join in with establishment demands that as a community they must 'know their place') and take hard arguments to the rest of the working class, you cave to general public pressure and join the rancorous denunciation of specific 'alien' values.


fuck off you shitfer wankstain.  you know not of what you witter.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 9, 2010)

I'd say it's essential to protest against both, especially since mosques and other Muslim venues have stated they are not welcome.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

you fucking morons, what good can come of your retarded demonstration against Troxy that couldn't have been achieved far better by simply ignoring them? they are not a threat the Western society, they're an isolated bunch of weirdos. the EDL is, however, quite happy to use them as a stick with which to beat the Islamic community as a whole, and you're buying into it.

this 'threat' from radical Islam is non-existant. the very real threat from black London gangs is far more prevalent on the streets of London - yet somehow everyone here recognizes (or at least they fucking should) that only racists and liberal-opportunists would join in with a right-wing tirade against 'black muggers'. the NF tried building a United Front on that very basis in the 70s, and were rightly routed. how come the "intelligentsia" of Urban can't see the brazen parallels in strategy and tactics used by the EDL, or the similarities of reactions from two different oppressed communities in different cultural and historical contexts?


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> you fucking morons, what good can come of your retarded demonstration against Troxy that couldn't have been achieved far better by simply ignoring them? they are not a threat the Western society, they're an isolated bunch of weirdos. the EDL is, however, quite happy to use them as a stick with which to beat the Islamic community as a whole, and you're buying into it.



Couldn't you just use your same argument vis-a-vis Islamists to suggest that since the white working-class is disenfranchised, it isn't legitimate to protest against the EDL?

Seems silly.


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> that only racists and liberal-opportunists would join in with a right-wing tirade against 'black muggers'.



I would hope that most decent people would be willing to voice opposition to mugging, regardless of who is doing the mugging.


----------



## cesare (Jun 9, 2010)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> how about
> 
> "We're protesting against both of you outsider divisive elements coming into the area we live and trying to shit stir, neither of your groups are from here, you're both bussing in people in the hope of causing further division in our community.  You should both fuck off and take your backwards, nasty opinions with you."



Aye. They can all fuck off.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> you fucking morons, what good can come of your retarded demonstration against Troxy that couldn't have been achieved far better by simply ignoring them? they are not a threat the Western society, they're an isolated bunch of weirdos. the EDL is, however, quite happy to use them as a stick with which to beat the Islamic community as a whole, and you're buying into it.
> 
> this 'threat' from radical Islam is non-existant. the very real threat from black London gangs is far more prevalent on the streets of London - yet somehow everyone here recognizes (or at least they fucking should) that only racists and liberal-opportunists would join in with a right-wing tirade against 'black muggers'. the NF tried building a United Front on that very basis in the 70s, and were rightly routed. *how come the "intelligentsia" of Urban can't see the brazen parallels in strategy and tactics used by the EDL, or the similarities of reactions from two different oppressed communities in different cultural and historical contexts?*



It's obviously because we are morons.

((((poor morons))))


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

Cigarette paper said:


> Couldn't you just use your same argument vis-a-vis Islamists to suggest that since the white working-class is disenfranchised, it isn't legitimate to protest against the EDL?
> 
> Seems silly.



you're presuming that a) the EDL is working class (i think they have a higher working-class demographic than many groups on the left, but i also know that of the EDL members I know personally (from school and shit) they're almost all white-van men's sons, petit bourgeois suburban estate types) and b) that the EDL's attack on Islam is an expression of their disenfranchisement.

In practice, it is not. It is an expression of their ethnic superiority (in a real sense; their cause is not unjustifiable by the establishment's own agenda. In fact, their 'intellectual' basis is entirely sound on the establishment's own agenda, the state only has issue with their 'thuggery'). The Islamic community has no such institutional support. It is in no way a danger to our society or to the left, and attacking it can only have a counter-productive effect in reaching out to politicised muslims with whom this group may carry underlying cultural/subcultural sympathies.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

Cigarette paper said:


> I would hope that most decent people would be willing to voice opposition to mugging, regardless of who is doing the mugging.



You're either willfully ignoring the fact that there is a direct political motivation underlying a campaign against 'muggers' (such as the 1970s NF campaign) or you're just stupid. Such 'issues' do not exist in some kind of abstracted isolation from real social relationships.


----------



## past caring (Jun 9, 2010)

Who is this silly cunt?


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> you're presuming that a) the EDL is working class (i think they have a higher working-class demographic than many groups on the left, but i also know that of the EDL members I know personally (from school and shit) they're almost all white-van men's sons, petit bourgeois suburban estate types) and b) that the EDL's attack on Islam is an expression of their disenfranchisement.
> 
> In practice, it is not. It is an expression of their ethnic superiority (in a real sense; their cause is not unjustifiable by the establishment's own agenda. In fact, their 'intellectual' basis is entirely sound on the establishment's own agenda, the state only has issue with their 'thuggery'). The Islamic community has no such institutional support. It is in no way a danger to our society or to the left, and attacking it can only have a counter-productive effect in reaching out to politicised muslims with whom this group may carry underlying cultural/subcultural sympathies.



Hmm?

What do you mean by institutional support? The EDL are roundly condemned by all and sundry. Sure, there are some articles in the tabloid press that could be used to by the EDL to justify their bigotry but you could say the same of Islamists and the left-wing media! Neither the right-wing media nor the left media do anything but condemn both.


----------



## treelover (Jun 9, 2010)

'Couldn't you just use your same argument vis-a-vis Islamists to suggest that since the white working-class is disenfranchised, it isn't legitimate to protest against the EDL?

Seems silly.'


Uberdog believes in the theory of the hierarchy of the oppressed, he has also read 'The Wretched of the Earth' you know.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2010)

"The Real Battle of Cable Street."

Documentary.

http://current.com/news/92353445_the-real-battle-of-cable-street.htm


----------



## treelover (Jun 9, 2010)

> The Islamic community has no such institutional support




Well, the extreme bits do, from Saudi at least


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> You're either willfully ignoring the fact that there is a direct political motivation underlying a campaign against 'muggers' (such as the 1970s NF campaign) or you're just stupid. Such 'issues' do not exist in some kind of abstracted isolation from real social relationships.



Huh?

Are you trying to suggest that it isn't possible to be against mugging without having some sort of ethnocentric motivation?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

Cigarette paper said:


> Hmm?
> 
> What do you mean by institutional support? The EDL are roundly condemned by all and sundry. Sure, there are some articles in the tabloid press that could be used to by the EDL to justify their bigotry but you could say the same of Islamists and the left-wing media! Neither the right-wing media nor the left media do anything but condemn both.



their professed ideological agenda is totally and utterly compatible with the State's project of social control, and with the establishment's scapegoating of migrant communities. surely you can see that!? the biggest argument the mainstream press have against the EDL is that they're uncomfortable watching ordinary people take these 'legitimate' views into their own hands and doing something about it, where they should rest their faith in the arbitrating powers of the state's legal and judiciary functions.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

Cigarette paper said:


> Huh?
> 
> Are you trying to suggest that it isn't possible to be against mugging without having some sort of ethnocentric motivation?



i'm arguing that for the left to spearhead a campaign against 'muggers' in a political situation in which the evils of 'black muggers' is as prevalent in the media as it was in the 70s is insane. you're joining in with the state and her liberal allies chorus of condemnation over periodically politicised issues (mugging, immigration, terrorism, ethnic tension, football hooliganism, etc) and aiding their ideological agenda! i'm not asking you to accept mugging or terrorism as some legitimate expression of anger, i'm just asking you to be a bit more fucking savvy as to your political alliances and the broader impact of your campaign in _real_ society.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

audiotech said:


> "The Real Battle of Cable Street."
> 
> Documentary.
> 
> http://current.com/news/92353445_the-real-battle-of-cable-street.htm



thank you for posting up that ridiculous piece of shit published by the bizarre autonimists from the former RCP, AKA spiked! online, AKA the Institute of Ideas, AKA Frank Furedi and Claire Fox, AKA 'Worldbytes'...


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> their professed ideological agenda is totally and utterly compatible with the State's project of social control, and with the establishment's scapegoating of migrant communities. surely you can see that!? the biggest argument the mainstream press have against the EDL is that they're uncomfortable watching ordinary people take these 'legitimate' views into their own hands and doing something about it, where they should rest their faith in the arbitrating powers of the state's legal and judiciary functions.



Can you provide some examples of this scapegoating of Muslims by the state?


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'm arguing that for the left to spearhead a campaign against 'muggers' in a political situation in which the evils of 'black muggers' is as prevalent in the media as it was in the 70s is insane. you're joining in with the state and her liberal allies chorus of condemnation over periodically politicised issues (mugging, immigration, terrorism, ethnic tension, football hooliganism, etc) and aiding their ideological agenda! i'm not asking you to accept mugging or terrorism as some legitimate expression of anger, i'm just asking you to be a bit more fucking savvy as to your political alliances and the broader impact of your campaign in _real_ society.



I guess that black communities, who surely suffer from mugging by other members of their communities the most, are racist for not approving of mugging?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2010)

> What was to me the most uplifting was seeing bearded Jews and Irish Catholic dockers side by side behind the barricades.......



...


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

Cigarette paper said:


> Can you provide some examples of this scapegoating of Muslims by the state?



have you been living under a fucking rock for the past 15 years? je-zuz... when i actually do try and engage with someone this is the brain-dead inanity i recieve.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

Cigarette paper said:


> I guess that black communities, who surely suffer from mugging by other members of their communities the most, are racist for not approving of mugging?



wtf?


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 9, 2010)

The ultra-Salafist contingent (such as Bidal Philips et al) as pointed out above are backed by Saudi petro-dollars. This is hardly a marginalised body, althoughthe British Muslim community is somewhat marginalised.  More importantly it is the islamic equivilant of the BNP preaching a supremecist the kuffir versus the believers black and white 2d version of Islam. Why shouldn't it be opposed by the left? Are the brothers who drove Ajem Choudry and his band of bearded nutters out of Luton also being counter-productive? 

This money that Saudi has pumped into the Ummah has had a definite effect. I'll give you an example, I recently took part in a Nikkah in the midlands, it was completely sexually segregated right up to almost the end of the reception. Nikkahs in the 70s and early 80s in the very same community had un segregated receptions. Saudi money has been pushing their austeer 'southern baptist' burn in the hellfire, the shaytan is everywhere waiting to corrupt you, interpretation of islam since the 1980s.

*eta*
The counter march by local anarchists against both the EDL and the Troxy mob gets my support, they see the devisiveness of both sets of extremists.


----------



## cesare (Jun 9, 2010)

ohmyliver said:


> The ultra-Salafist contingent (such as Bidal Philips et al) as pointed out above are backed by Saudi petro-dollars. This is hardly a marginalised body, althoughthe British Muslim community is somewhat marginalised.  More importantly it is the islamic equivilant of the BNP preaching a supremecist the kuffir versus the believers black and white 2d version of Islam. Why shouldn't it be opposed by the left? Are the brothers who drove Ajem Choudry and his band of bearded nutters out of Luton also being counter-productive?
> 
> This money that Saudi has pumped into the Ummah has had a definite effect. I'll give you an example, I recently took part in a Nikkah in the midlands, it was completely sexually segregated right up to almost the end of the reception. Nikkahs in the 70s and early 80s in the very same community had un segregated receptions. Saudi money has been pushing their austeer 'southern baptist' burn in the hellfire, the shaytan is everywhere waiting to corrupt you, interpretation of islam since the 1980s.
> 
> ...


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 9, 2010)

cesare said:


>



eh?


----------



## cesare (Jun 9, 2010)

ohmyliver said:


> eh?



Sorry. I thought it was a piss-take


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> thank you for posting up that ridiculous piece of shit published by the bizarre autonimists from the former RCP, AKA spiked! online, AKA the Institute of Ideas, AKA Frank Furedi and Claire Fox, AKA 'Worldbytes'...



I somehow doubt that you watched this before you posted the rant?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'm arguing that for the left to spearhead a campaign against 'muggers' in a political situation in which the evils of 'black muggers' is as prevalent in the media as it was in the 70s is insane. you're joining in with the state and her liberal allies chorus of condemnation over periodically politicised issues (mugging, immigration, terrorism, ethnic tension, football hooliganism, etc) and aiding their ideological agenda! i'm not asking you to accept mugging or terrorism as some legitimate expression of anger, i'm just asking you to be a bit more fucking savvy as to your political alliances and the broader impact of your campaign in _real_ society.



You are seriously radio rental, you racist trot cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> have you been living under a fucking rock for the past 15 years? je-zuz... when i actually do try and engage with someone this is the brain-dead inanity i recieve.


only because of the brain-dead wank you post.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 9, 2010)

I reckon it's Martin


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> I reckon it's Martin


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2010)

Webster?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

ohmyliver said:


> This money that Saudi has pumped into the Ummah has had a definite effect. I'll give you an example, I recently took part in a Nikkah in the midlands, it was completely sexually segregated right up to almost the end of the reception. Nikkahs in the 70s and early 80s in the very same community had un segregated receptions. Saudi money has been pushing their austeer 'southern baptist' burn in the hellfire, the shaytan is everywhere waiting to corrupt you, interpretation of islam since the 1980s.



I think the political impact of Saudi money is overstated; what we've seen in recent years is a universal movement within the Islamic community away from secularized nationalism and towards theological Islamism, which corresponds more directly to the defeat of secular national liberationist projects and their replacement with Islamist intellectual and activist currents (and also the comparative 'successes' of reactionary bodies like the Taliban and Hamas in achieving real power) rather than the direction of cash-flows.

What institutional protection are Saudi princes capable of offering to this Troxy group, anyway? Ultimately, any sway the Saudi aristocracy might be able to wield over the Islamic community is compromised by their overrall commitment to capitalism, and thus the state entities from which Western Capital is organized.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 9, 2010)

cesare said:


> Sorry. I thought it was a piss-take



ahh, ok...  I'm very tired, and very over caffinated...  but people like Das Uberdog get on my wick...  didn't realise I'd descended into barely intelligable hyperbolic parody...


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> You are seriously radio rental, you racist trot cunt.



i'd love to rub your face in a pavement you tanky piece of shit. you gonna be around in Tower Hamlets attacking muslims at this meeting, eh? maybe we can meet up.


----------



## revlon (Jun 9, 2010)

ohmyliver said:


> ahh, ok...  I'm very tired, and very over caffinated...  but people like Das Uberdog get on my wick...  didn't realise I'd descended into barely intelligable hyperbolic parody...



made perfect sense to me


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> I think the political impact of Saudi money is overstated; what we've seen in recent years is a universal movement within the Islamic community away from secularized nationalism and towards theological Islamism, which corresponds more directly to the defeat of secular national liberationist projects and their replacement with Islamist intellectual and activist currents (and also the comparative 'successes' of reactionary bodies like the Taliban and Hamas in achieving real power) rather than the direction of cash-flows.
> 
> What institutional protection are Saudi princes capable of offering to this Troxy group, anyway? Ultimately, any sway the Saudi aristocracy might be able to wield over the Islamic community is compromised by their overrall commitment to capitalism, and thus the state entities from which Western Capital is organized.


there are 6,000 saudi princes, many of whom are sympathetic to the sort of vile views on parade at the troxy on 20/6, and of course there is a saudi cleric on the bill


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'd love to rub your face in a pavement you tanky piece of shit. you gonna be around in Tower Hamlets attacking muslims at this meeting, eh? maybe we can meet up.


carry on chief, with every post you make it clearer that - as i said above - you know not of what you witter.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

and every time you try and mess around with perfectly reasonable grammatical constructions you further prove what a pretentious ass you are


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> I think the political impact of Saudi money is overstated; what we've seen in recent years is a universal movement within the Islamic community away from secularized nationalism and towards theological Islamism, which corresponds more directly to the defeat of secular national liberationist projects and their replacement with Islamist intellectual and activist currents (and also the comparative 'successes' of reactionary bodies like the Taliban and Hamas in achieving real power) rather than the direction of cash-flows.
> 
> What institutional protection are Saudi princes capable of offering to this Troxy group, anyway? Ultimately, any sway the Saudi aristocracy might be able to wield over the Islamic community is compromised by their overrall commitment to capitalism, and thus the state entities from which Western Capital is organized.



Saudi is considered the 'gold standard' for a lot of Sunni muslims. Despite Saudi's clear breaks with what the Koran says on things like marriage. It pays for the constructions of Masjeeds and pays for Imams to preach its version of Islam. That's a fairly big sway.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

audiotech said:


> I somehow doubt that you watched this before you posted the rant?



no, not at all - i've seen it. if you were wading in on my side then i'd still rather not be represented by the bile-machine that is the IoI.


----------



## cesare (Jun 9, 2010)

ohmyliver said:


> ahh, ok...  I'm very tired, and very over caffinated...  but people like Das Uberdog get on my wick...  didn't realise I'd descended into barely intelligable hyperbolic parody...



Unintentional hits the spot too. Hopefully Das Uberdog will be sporting a helpful 'I'm the nutbobbins' placard if he shows up on the 20th.


----------



## treelover (Jun 9, 2010)

the worrying thing is that DU's ramblings are shared by the SWP high command and are probably Trot orthodoxy.


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> have you been living under a fucking rock for the past 15 years? je-zuz... when i actually do try and engage with someone this is the brain-dead inanity i recieve.



Why haven't you provided us with any examples? 

Scapegoating is a pretty serious allegation, especially considering the fact that our previous government spent millions upon millions on Muslim communities during its mandate. 

The previous government had Muslim ministers, our new government has a Muslim woman minister.

Sure, Tony Blair supported a reprehensible war in Iraq but it wasn't done out of religious motivations. Tony Blair also led Britain into wars against Serbia, was that an example of scapegoating Slavs or Orthodox Christians for a domestic political agenda? What about the boots on the ground in Sierra Leone, an example of racism against blacks?

It's hardly Kristallnacht.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

how about every piece of domestic 'terror' legislation that's been introduced since 2001? endless policy announcements from the Home Office on a weekly basis under John Reid in the Blair years; attacks on the right to wear the veil, paranoid security threat announcements, often entirely fabricated (such as the Old Trafford incident), i really could go on but tbh the fact you have evidently not bothered to look around at the outside world for the past decade really makes me resent it.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

ohmyliver said:


> Saudi is considered the 'gold standard' for a lot of Sunni muslims. Despite Saudi's clear breaks with what the Koran says on things like marriage. It pays for the constructions of Masjeeds and pays for Imams to preach its version of Islam. That's a fairly big sway.



well how come the veer towards more reactionary forms of Islam have only been occurring since the 80s and the success of the Taliban against the Russians (alongside the destruction of the secular and left-wing movements like the PLO in Palestine and general lefty modernization projects like that of Nassers, etc)? sure, the Saudi's played their part in the destruction of these campaigns, but you can hardly claim that the reversion to this belief isn't a desperate move in the absence of a practical alternative to fighting imperialism?


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> how about every piece of domestic 'terror' legislation that's been introduced since 2001? endless policy announcements from the Home Office on a weekly basis under John Reid in the Blair years; attacks on the right to wear the veil, paranoid security threat announcements, often entirely fabricated (such as the Old Trafford incident), i really could go on but tbh the fact you have evidently not bothered to look around at the outside world for the past decade really makes me resent it.



The previous government's policy on civil liberties was absolutely atrocious.

The government cynically used September 11th and the 7th of July as an excuse to attack the freedom of the individual. For example, the Racial and Religious Hatred Act from 2006 has effectively curtailed our right to free speech. However, as much as I disagree with this act, as I do much of the anti-terrorist legislation, it has been applied to Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

In any case, none of this legislation is aimed at the average Muslim and I'm still waiting for an example of the state scapegoating the Muslim community.

As far as attacks on the veil are concerned, Jack Straw may have been insensitive in suggesting that Muslim women should not wear the niqab or a burqba but quite frankly to suggest that he or any other mainstream British politican suggested an outright ban of the garment is misleading. In any case, there is a huge difference between wearing a woman covering her hair and a woman covering her entire face. Jack Straw criticised the latter, not the former. Most Muslim women do not cover their face.

I suppose what I am looking for is any examples of the state actually persecuting Muslims for being Muslims, or suggesting that Muslims are responsible for the ills of the country... something like that. That is what scapegoating is and you haven't provided any examples like that.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

how on earth can you say that stop and search powers under section 44 aren't impacting upon ordinary muslims? what about state propaganda about 'radical mosques' or central diktat that Imams have to rat on children 'at risk of radicalization'? huge cctv presences in Islamic neighbourhoods (as recently uncovered by the Guardian in Birmingham) and massive surveillance operations overhwelming any reasonable assessment of risk? have you seriously missed all of this?


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> how on earth can you say that stop and search powers under section 44 aren't impacting upon ordinary muslims?



This legislation is regularly abused, however those who it is used against are often non-Muslim.



> what about state propaganda about 'radical mosques' or central diktat that Imams have to rat on children 'at risk of radicalization'? huge cctv presences in Islamic neighbourhoods (as recently uncovered by the Guardian in Birmingham) and massive surveillance operations overhwelming any reasonable assessment of risk? have you seriously missed all of this?



State propaganda about radical Mosques? Uhh, I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean reports of extremist views in Mosques in the mainstream media? Well, that does come up in the media but I would imagine that is because there are Muslims who hold these views! When extremist reactionary views are held by Christians, this is brought up too! See http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/apr/05/religion-christianity-andrew-brown

I haven't heard about disproportionate amounts of CCTV in Muslim communities though it doesn't surprise me... but again, it's not as if Muslims are specifically watched by CCTV. Aren't we the most watched country in the world?

In any case, even if any of this WAS aimed exclusively at Muslims then none of it would be an example of the state scapegoating the Muslim community for the ills of the country.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 9, 2010)

this is insane - every single one of these powers and developments has disproportionately affected the Muslim community. What, do you want the State to actually produce an officially Islamophobic statement of intent before you'll see any kind of anti-Muslim agenda at play?


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> this is insane - every single one of these powers and developments has disproportionately affected the Muslim community.



Do you have any statistics for that?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> their professed ideological agenda is totally and utterly compatible with the State's project of social control, and with the establishment's scapegoating of migrant communities. surely you can see that!? the biggest argument the mainstream press have against the EDL is that they're uncomfortable watching ordinary people take these 'legitimate' views into their own hands and doing something about it, where they should rest their faith in the arbitrating powers of the state's legal and judiciary functions.



Which state are you talking about? EDL aren't connected to the British State at all.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, not at all - i've seen it. if you were wading in on my side then i'd still rather not be represented by the bile-machine that is the IoI.



"Thou doth protest....", etc and don't flatter yourself.


----------



## treelover (Jun 9, 2010)

DU, Urban king of Hyperbole


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 9, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> Which state are you talking about? EDL aren't connected to the British State at all.




The SWP, on the other hand...


----------



## cesare (Jun 9, 2010)

Cigarette paper said:


> Do you have any statistics for that?



Don't encourage him


----------



## audiotech (Jun 9, 2010)

> Two neo-Nazi member of the extremist English Defence League have appeared in court accused of soliciting the hate killings of Jews.



http://www.clickliverpool.com/news/...harges-of-soliciting-murder-in-liverpool.html


----------



## OneStrike (Jun 10, 2010)

audiotech said:


> http://www.clickliverpool.com/news/...harges-of-soliciting-murder-in-liverpool.html





Strange, given that several EDL leaders are pro-israel and the Israeli flag is always displayed at their 'demo's'.  Sounds like someone simple and filled with hate.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> this 'threat' from radical Islam is non-existant. the very real threat from black London gangs is far more prevalent on the streets of London



The major difference being that London gangs can claim to come from London which neither the twats preaching misogyny at the troxy or the edl bussed in from the midlands can.

What about you das? where are you being bussed in from?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 10, 2010)

audiotech said:


> "Thou doth protest....", etc and don't flatter yourself.



Ok dickhead


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> this is insane - every single one of these powers and developments has disproportionately affected the Muslim community. What, do you want the State to actually produce an officially Islamophobic statement of intent before you'll see any kind of anti-Muslim agenda at play?



Islam does have a bit of an image problem though, it must be said. What they need is a better marketing strategy. This is interesting. Wonder if it will do any good. 

http://www.inspiredbymuhammad.com/campaign.php


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> this is insane - every single one of these powers and developments has disproportionately affected the Muslim community. What, do you want the State to actually produce an officially Islamophobic statement of intent before you'll see any kind of anti-Muslim agenda at play?



To put things in proportion. All the muslim women who are victims of honour killings and terrorised by their families for not being good muslims are not really effected by any of that.
You seem to think your standing up for muslims against racists and bigots but what about standing up for people born into muslim families who suffer shocking persecution and terror within those families?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

Can't be doing anything like speaking up for vulnerable women. Might make them look like wacists.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> well how come the veer towards more reactionary forms of Islam have only been occurring since the 80s and the success of the Taliban against the Russians (alongside the destruction of the secular and left-wing movements like the PLO in Palestine and general lefty modernization projects like that of Nassers, etc)? sure, the Saudi's played their part in the destruction of these campaigns, but you can hardly claim that the reversion to this belief isn't a desperate move in the absence of a practical alternative to fighting imperialism?



Actually the 'Islamic revival' started in the 1970s, and was helped/enabled a lot by 70s oil price hikes.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 10, 2010)

the intellectual movement started earlier, it only started to gain ground amongst ordinary Muslims since 1979


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 10, 2010)

tbaldwin said:


> To put things in proportion. All the muslim women who are victims of honour killings and terrorised by their families for not being good muslims are not really effected by any of that.
> You seem to think your standing up for muslims against racists and bigots but what about standing up for people born into muslim families who suffer shocking persecution and terror within those families?



you should stand up for abused women on a feminist basis, from the perspective that they are women and oppressed, not on the basis of them being Muslim and you being some enlightened socialist with less rudimentary values.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'd love to rub your face in a pavement you tanky piece of shit. you gonna be around in Tower Hamlets attacking muslims at this meeting, eh? maybe we can meet up.



I have never met a trot who can scrap.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

Look, I agree with you opposing the EDL. Just on this occasion it appears to the wider community that you're supporting the islamist event. The EDL will use that as a stick to beat you with. This is why the community need to be united in opposing both the EDL and the misogynist islamists.

It might also be beneficial if the left aren't divided about something for a fucking change.

And since when were we forced to choose between feminism and anti-fascism. Seems a strange mindset to compartmentalise them off like that.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 10, 2010)

@citizen66 exactly any response should be a rejection of all divisive hate filled groups coming to the east end.  There should be no place for hate in our borough, be it racist, homophobic or sexist.

a clear honest line which the whole community should back and get behind.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 10, 2010)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> @citizen66 exactly any response should be a rejection of all divisive hate filled groups coming to the east end.  There should be no place for hate in our borough, be it racist, homophobic or sexist.
> 
> a clear honest line which the whole community should back and get behind.



exactly, and giving hard line salafists a free pass because they are muslims is patronising in the extreme to the wider muslim community.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> the intellectual movement started earlier, it only started to gain ground amongst ordinary Muslims since 1979



yes, and helped a lot by the Iranian theocratic take over of their revolution and Afghani successes against the Soviets.  But if Saudi money hadn't have put in place imams in commmunities to frame these successes in solely religious terms....


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> you should stand up for abused women on a feminist basis, from the perspective that they are women and oppressed, not on the basis of them being Muslim and you being some enlightened socialist with less rudimentary values.



That just seems a bit dishonest. There are specific problems for muslim women and these seem to be largely ignored.
It makes it really difficult to believe that people like yourself are in any way genuine in your defence of muslim people.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 10, 2010)

@ Das Uberdog, Would you be saying the same shit you have if it was a zionist conference attended by a group like Aish Ha-Torah or something like that, and the EDL were protesting against that, would you be saying the anarchists shouldn't get involved and shouldn't be protesting against a group that "everyone hates"?


----------



## treelover (Jun 10, 2010)

.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 10, 2010)

> Sure, Tony Blair supported a reprehensible war in Iraq but it wasn't done out of religious motivations. Tony Blair also led Britain into wars against Serbia, was that an example of scapegoating Slavs or Orthodox Christians for a domestic political agenda?



I actually agree with some of the stuff DA is saying about the scapegoating of Muslims. Where i disagree with him is over the fact that this somehow means that people who preach an extreme form of Islam which is opposed by the majority of the Muslim community should not be opposed as this is somehow capitulating to the state's agenda. As for Serbia, take a look at some of the propaganda that was going around the time about Serbs. Change a few words and Im sorry but it you could have been looking at something from the 30s.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 10, 2010)

How does this sound to you DA? 



> View Post
> anyone who can't comprehend how counter-productive it would be for the left to start actively pursuing powerless zionist sects, whose retrogressive political opinions though isolated still represent a genuine grievance with society on behalf of the Jewish community, are too moronic for me to even attempt conversation with.
> 
> yeah, you go ahead and protest against Jewish extremism 'from the left', applying yet further pressure on a marginalized community to declare their solidarity with soppish liberal values against evIL zionist authoritarians. it's so ridiculous it's untrue. what fucking planet are you on? just because you're too fucking cowardly to actually defend the Jewish community properly (which involves understanding that oppressed communities often turn towards reactionary ideas, and that the way to wean them off these is not to seemingly join in with establishment demands that as a community they must 'know their place') and take hard arguments to the rest of the working class, you cave to general public pressure and join the rancorous denunciation of specific 'alien' values.


----------



## Dan U (Jun 10, 2010)

> I am aware that there is growing concern amongst staff about community safety following articles in the national and local press that the English Defence League is planning to hold a potentially divisive demonstration in Tower Hamlets on 20th June.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



got sent this from someone i know at TH


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 10, 2010)




----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 10, 2010)

Just heard the conference at the Troxy has been cancelled!


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 10, 2010)




----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 10, 2010)

now the EDL will have to cancel, or show their true intentions, those being to come to Tower Hamlets to cause trouble and division.

They can no longer claim to be coming to oppose a hate filled conference


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 10, 2010)

Glad to see that the conference has been cancelled.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 10, 2010)

*Troxy says "No Place for Hate" here and cancels contraversial conference*



> A controversial Islamic conference due to take place on June 20 has been scrapped by the Troxy.
> 
> The Commercial Road venue was set to host 'The Book that Shook the World' but has changed its position after signing a council pledge.
> 
> A spokesman for the Troxy said: "We recently signed up to the council's No Place for Hate campaign and feel that some of the speakers have the potential to clash with the terms of the pledge."


http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co....y=newsela&itemid=WeED10 Jun 2010 12:11:44:280


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Glad to see that the conference has been cancelled.



Yeah but some of the EDL are still planning to go - they've bought their tickets.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 10, 2010)

*facepalm* Maybe a la Stormfront they'll have the confernce pretending to be Muslims.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 10, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> *facepalm* Maybe a la Stormfront they'll have the confernce pretending to be Muslims.



No - I think they'll try and target the mosque a la SIOE


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 10, 2010)

Majority of EDL members still want to go, esp. those who already bought their tickets. They now want to target the mosque. They know their presence will be found threatening by Muslims and they think that Muslims will 'light the powder keg' and riots will spread out of control across the country. 

Nice bunch of lads @EDL. Hoping to spread riots across the country with their anti-Muslim hate demos.


----------



## IC3D (Jun 10, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> No - I think they'll try and target the mosque a la SIOE



By bottling it and letting the SWP whip up everyone into a frenzy for the media you mean.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> Ok dickhead


----------



## veltins (Jun 10, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> Majority of EDL members still want to go, esp. those who already bought their tickets. They now want to target the mosque. They know their presence will be found threatening by Muslims and they think that Muslims will 'light the powder keg' and riots will spread out of control across the country.
> 
> Nice bunch of lads @EDL. Hoping to spread riots across the country with their anti-Muslim hate demos.



typical bullshit,  The EDL demo is cancelled


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> Just heard the conference at the Troxy has been cancelled!



Good to see they saw sense. UAF should learn from it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2010)

veltins said:


> typical bullshit,  The EDL demo is cancelled


link or stfu


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2010)

veltins said:


> typical bullshit,  The EDL demo is cancelled



Good. Keep the fuck away from East London.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 10, 2010)

They want to come back to Cardiff... LOL


----------



## tim (Jun 10, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> not only is it not our place to go around trying to sort out the Islamic 'house'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## veltins (Jun 10, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Good. Keep the fuck away from East London.



yeah u r right no need to go to east london, maybe west london instead


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

tbaldwin - yes there are issues of oppression specific to Muslim women. that's not the point; the point is that political agents separate from the 'ummah' can't make what amount to theological arguments against the more reactionary Islamist sects without contributing their own share to the general social hysteria around Islam. and bringing up these issues _in the context of an EDL demonstration in the area_ is just barmy. it can't help but serve as another propaganda attack against the Islamic community, both in terms of the community's own perceptions of the left and also in terms of media representation.

frogwoman, the difference between Zionism and Islamism, in its structural context, is that Zionism is a political and military arm of the overarching Western imperial 'project'; in a very real sense, it represents an arm of the ideology of the ruling class, and of those at the helm of global capitalism. Islamism is the ideology of those dispossessed from any real power or influence, and varying strains of reactionary sectism which emanate from it (some of which are, indeed, sponsored by powerful established forces and interests). this is not a debate over theoretical 'truths' or even social values, it's simply a direct assessment of the differing roles which each ideologies play in the geopolitical relations of the world today. Islamism is perfectly compatible with repression and force, ideologically.


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Jun 11, 2010)

http://www.eastlondonadvertiser.co....y=newsela&itemid=WeED10 Jun 2010 12:11:44:280

The Islamismist thing seems to have been cancelled.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> frogwoman, the difference between Zionism and Islamism, in its structural context, is that Zionism is a political and military arm of the overarching Western imperial 'project'; in a very real sense, it represents an arm of the ideology of the ruling class, and of those at the helm of global capitalism. Islamism is the ideology of those dispossessed from any real power or influence, and varying strains of reactionary sectism which emanate from it (some of which are, indeed, sponsored by powerful established forces and interests). this is not a debate over theoretical 'truths' or even social values, it's simply a direct assessment of the differing roles which each ideologies play in the geopolitical relations of the world today. Islamism is perfectly compatible with repression and force, ideologically.



The Saudi royal family I don't think are dispossessed from real power and influence. Yet they are presiding over one of the most repressive Islamic theocracies in the world 

Oh, and Jews being persecuted in tajikistan and the like often believe in zionism despite being "isolated and dispossessed". Hasidic jews living in london have one of the highest rates of unemployment in the city, and many of them believe in zionism as well. Does this mean that zionism should not be opposed and indeed because israel is becoming universally unpopular except among jews that we should just support it? What about fundamentalist churches from africa, the people who believe in that shit, witch children and the like, exorcisms, they're pretty devoid of any real influence in the world as well, but would you want to support them in whatever nonsense they were coming out with? 

You can twist the argument to argue the exact opposite of what you have just argued. Be careful. In 50 years' time when america's power has declined irrevocably are you going to declare that neo-conservatism, christian fundamentalism, zionism and the like are the ones to be sympathised with instead, because they're "anti-imperialist"?


----------



## treelover (Jun 11, 2010)

apparently the EDL are going to protest against an Islamic peace conference which is open to all faiths, etc, sounds like a bad move to me, and indicator of where they are moving.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Umm, no shit.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

veltins said:


> yeah u r right no need to go to east london, maybe west london instead



Yep, feel free to remain west of London.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

frogwoman, Chasidic Jews in London are not politically dispossessed on the basis of their Judaism. they are not oppressed as an ethnicity. taking your Tajikistan example, i would also argue that, yes - in Tajikistan (and, tbh in many areas of Eastern Europe) it would be counter-productive for the left to actively campaign against Zionism in a situation where the prevalent form of ethnic prejudice was anti-Semitism.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

But I wouldn't be protesting against Islamism per se. I'd be protesting against homophobia and misogyny being encouraged in East London which is despicable whether it be preached by Jews, Muslims, Christians or Atheists. I couldn't give a shit about the possibility of a caliphate elsewhere in the world, presently.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 11, 2010)

/\ this

In an area where homophobic attacks have been massively increasing in the last few years, it is totally justified to be campaigning against homophobic speakers coming to town, regardless of their colour or religion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8316646.stm

http://moderngov.towerhamlets.gov.uk/mgAi.aspx?ID=22009

http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2787


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

what c66 said. 

i take your point about it being counterproductive in terms of attracting support but it really makes little sense to have "the left" conducting campaigns in different countries depending on who's more oppressed. to my mind it is better to be honest that all these nationalist and reactionary ideologies are counterproductive and divisive rather than running the risk of people in one country (where the "left" "supports" or at least doesn't oppose islamist ideology) going to another country where they are saying something completely different. your post is very telling in that it comes and talks about "the left" as somehow separate from the political situation in that country, as if they are coming in and telling them what to do.


as for zionists in tajikistan i see no harm in supporting jewish communities in keeping them out of the community in those countries and working with jewish organisations to provide sustainable living alternatives, jobs etc where not many exist as long as there's something to take their place, especially when they are frequently one of the main reasons why anti-semites there and elsewhere can operate with impunity, because they encourage jews to move to israel and essentially say it's their fault if they stay. im not talking about ostracising people for expressing ignorant pro-israel (or pro-islamist) positions i'm talking about building alternatives that don't divide people and that people can get behind whatever their religious or to a lesser extent political beliefs. and to some extent this has to be practical rather than just sloganising. 

it's a difficult question tho and it needs a lot more thought than possibly either you or i have given to this and i respect your views.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

> frogwoman, Chasidic Jews in London are not politically dispossessed on the basis of their Judaism. they are not oppressed as an ethnicity.



that's debatable tbh.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

the left should never 'encourage' Zionism or Islamism or any reactionary ideology amongst oppressed sections of society. however, there's a distinct difference between 'not encouraging' and 'actively protesting against', which is the issue of this thread. the left should always posit its own class analysis as the alternative to nationalism and racism, but in a positive (and not a negative) light. the message shouldn't be that we 'oppose' a reactionary tangent of Islam who may have convinced certain sections of the community that they are needed for liberation, it should be that the entire issue should be seen in its class context.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

fair enough. i don't always agree although i think sometimes protesting against things can be counterproductive (and patronising as it assumes that people from minority communities cannot think for themselves). however, taking a contrary stand against these islamists is not really any different to what the muslim community is doing themselves by no platforming them and refusing to allow them to use their venues. 

at the same time pointing out that it's all about class (which is correct) while ignoring the prejudices that exist against various communities or saying that their concerns are not relevant (a mirror image of saying that concerns re immigration and housing are not relevant and the people raising them are racist) is also fucking stupid as well.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

i do take a contrary stance to these Islamists, and i engage with the issues within the community, just not by having a demo against irrelevent sects which the EDL are protesting against on the same day the EDL are there and trying to make some kind of link between the two.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Like I said before, if you protest against the EDL while they are _ostensibly_ protesting against the Islamists at the Troxy, whilst saying nothing on the matter yourself, it appears to the wider community (and world) that you're in support of the event and the EDL will use that as a stick to beat "the left" with.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

but if you join in with their 'protest' then your allowing the fasc to set the political agenda, and you're essentially joining in with the chorus of establishment disapproval over Muslims in Britain.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> but if you join in with their 'protest' then your allowing the fasc to set the political agenda, and you're essentially joining in with the chorus of establishment disapproval over Muslims in Britain.



Not really. The Muslims in our local community have already shown their disapproval of the women and gay hating Islamists by not giving them a platform at the mosque. I would be supporting their stance by picketing the Troxy whilst not giving the EDL the freedom to move around the community either. They can fuck off back to Birmingham.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 11, 2010)

Oh dear. It appears there's trouble in the ranks?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Oh dear. It appears there's trouble in the ranks?




"They will face the reaction of your actions, because every action causes a reaction."



A split looming?


----------



## OneStrike (Jun 11, 2010)

Is that genuine?  The video is dated on the 8th yet Tommy Robinson was posting on the EDL site on the 9th?

#edited, a quote of his was posted on the 9th, my naughty.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

The whole soap opera appears to be catalogued here:

http:// lionheartuk.blogspot.com/

(Link broken to conform with the faq)


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Not really. The Muslims in our local community have already shown their disapproval of the women and gay hating Islamists by not giving them a platform at the mosque. I would be supporting their stance by picketing the Troxy whilst not giving the EDL the freedom to move around the community either. They can fuck off back to Birmingham.



no, they would have protested against it themselves if they thought it was necessary. they don't need a bunch of white lefties to do it for them.

on the EDL issue, although it looks on the surface like a right good old mess Tommy Robinson was one of the few influential non-BNPers on the leadership body of the organization. without knowing more about the situation, it might be too soon to say whether or not this expulsion and subsequent insanity was due to internal strife, or whether or not it was an unexpected by-product of the BNP formally taking hold of the organization.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, they would have protested against it themselves if they thought it was necessary. they don't need a bunch of white lefties to do it for them.



hahahahaha. 

Same goes for protesting against the edl, then? Hypocritical muppet.

Look, I live in the area. You clearly don't. If I don't want misogyny and homophobia to be given a platform in east London then I'll use my democratic right to protest against it. Same goes for the EDL being bused in from elsewhere to stir up local division.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i do take a contrary stance to these Islamists, and i engage with the issues within the community, just not by having a demo against irrelevent sects which the EDL are protesting against on the same day the EDL are there and trying to make some kind of link between the two.



They aren't irrelevant though. They are having a very negative impact on community relations. As I saw on saturday's demo and as I've seen in the past with other demos and from talking to people I know. And there's no point blaming "the media" for it.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 11, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> The whole soap opera appears to be catalogued here:
> 
> http:// lionheartuk.blogspot.com/
> 
> (Link broken to conform with the faq)



I like they way he mentions the Ebay thing there must be good money in these badges, hoodys and face masks... LOL


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> but if you join in with their 'protest' then your allowing the fasc to set the political agenda, and you're essentially joining in with the chorus of establishment disapproval over Muslims in Britain.



Who said anything about joining in the EDL's protest? The entire point of the demo is to protest against both lol. If a bunch of "anarchists" with a hard on over the EDL decided to march alongside them then that would be fucked up, but that is not what is happening here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> but if you join in with their 'protest' then your allowing the fasc to set the political agenda, and you're essentially joining in with the chorus of establishment disapproval over Muslims in Britain.


and who's joining in with their protest?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> hahahahaha.
> 
> Same goes for protesting against the edl, then? Hypocritical muppet.
> 
> Look, I live in the area. You clearly don't. If I don't want misogyny and homophobia to be given a platform in east London then I'll use my democratic right to protest against it. Same goes for the EDL being bused in from elsewhere to stir up local division.



you pathetic little knob, nobody is denying (or even talking about denying you) your 'democratic right' to protest whatever the fuck you please. despite my superior intellectual capaibilities i am quite aware that you could go and actually _join_ the fucking EDL if you so chose and there'd be little i could do about it. but you wouldn't even be aware of this Troxy event if it weren't for the fact that _the EDL chose to protest against it_, doesn't that fucking say something to you, you fucking moronic bell-end?

stuff your localistic bullshit up your arse - being a local evidently doesn't qualify you to be able to make sane political decisions.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

edit; @frogmeister

it's not your place, nor is it Mr. Local himself, Citizen88's place, to protest against this group - _even if_ the Mosque has condemned it. it's an internal Islamic community issue, and if they're happy with the measures they've taken to ensure the Troxy group gets little attention and has little impact, then _it is fundamentally not for the left to go about demonstrating against them_. the left _should not_ be protesting against Muslims in Britain today. it makes zero sense, on any concievable level.


----------



## the button (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> Citizen88



You can't help yourself.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

christ, no wonder the left is in such a state


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> edit; @frogmeister
> 
> it's not your place, nor is it Mr. Local himself, Citizen88's place, to protest against this group - _even if_ the Mosque has condemned it. it's an internal Islamic community issue, and if they're happy with the measures they've taken to ensure the Troxy group gets little attention and has little impact, then _it is fundamentally not for the left to go about demonstrating against them_. the left _should not_ be protesting against Muslims in Britain today. it makes zero sense, on any concievable level.



What about fundamentalist churches such as the UKCG? The people who belong to them tend to be from minority communities who are pretty marginalised and desperate. Should the left just ignore them and pretend it's not an issue?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

the button said:


> You can't help yourself.



you urban guyz just keep lining 'em up, i'll keep on whacking 'em out!


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> What about fundamentalist churches such as the UKCG? The people who belong to them tend to be from minority communities who are pretty marginalised and desperate. Should the left just ignore them and pretend it's not an issue?



they're an issue?


----------



## the button (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'll keep on whacking 'em out!



This much is true. Although I think "cracking one off" is the more usual phrase nowadays.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

too much projection mate, i was referring to my tremendous capacity for hilarious witticisms


----------



## the button (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> too much projection mate, i was referring to my tremendous capacity for hilarious witticisms



Link?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

...


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> despite my superior intellectual capaibilities



So much so that you even know how to spell the word properly.



Das Uberdog said:


> i was referring to my tremendous capacity for hilarious witticisms



You exist entirely up your own rectum, don't you?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

What is your definition of "protesting against Muslims" anyway? 

could it include, for example: 
Protesting against the Iranian regime? 
Protesting against the attack on Yugoslavia and the subsequent human rights violations of the (largely Muslim) Albanian-dominated government against the Serbs? 
Protesting against Saudi Arabia's treatment of women? 
Protesting against colonisation and settlement building in Morocco and Western Sahara and Darfur? 
Protesting against Egypt for its deals with Israel and for not opening their border crossing in Gaza?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> they're an issue?



Yes they fucking are. See victoria climbie (and recent threads in the brixton forum).


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

Citizen88 said:


> So much so that you even know how to spell the word properly.



OH YEH YOU GOT ME HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



> You exist entirely up your own rectum, don't you?



read the thread again and see who you think comes off as being further entrenched up their respective rectum. in fact, you needn't go further than the first half of your last post...


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> read the thread again and see who you think comes off as being further entrenched up their respective rectum. in fact, you needn't go further than the first half of your last post...



I'm not the one paying myself endless compliments regarding my alleged 'wit' and intellectual 'capaibilities'. 

Although I am now starting to understand why so many folk slag off UAF.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

So there we have it folks in black and white. Demonstrating against homophobia and misogyny by extreme islamists makes you an 88er.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> What is your definition of "protesting against Muslims" anyway?



Protesting against the Iranian regime? *Yes*
Protesting against the attack on Yugoslavia and the subsequent human rights violations of the (largely Muslim) Albanian-dominated government against the Serbs? *No*
Protesting against Saudi Arabia's treatment of women? *Yes*
Protesting against colonisation and settlement building in Morocco and Western Sahara and Darfur? *... No?*
Protesting against Egypt for its deals with Israel and for not opening their border crossing in Gaza? *Err, obviously not.*

kind of irritating we have to go through these baby-steps as to where and when it is reasonable for the British left to have a demonstration, when it's really quite obvious.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not the one paying myself endless compliments regarding my alleged 'wit' and intellectual 'capaibilities'.
> 
> Although I am now starting to understand why so many folk slag off UAF.



where are the endless compliments?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Well there was two. Which is evidently two too many.

Shame you won't be coming to Tower hamlets now. You could have shown me what a hard man you are irl.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, they would have protested against it themselves if they thought it was necessary. they don't need a bunch of white lefties to do it for them.



what utter bollocks.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> Yes they fucking are. See victoria climbie (and recent threads in the brixton forum).



if you were gonna tell me about fundamentalist churches sweeping through the country at the rate at which they're spreading in, say, sub-saharan Africa, then yes i'd say the left should protest against them. but you're talking about one tragic incident. that's different.

just like it would only aid the right-wing if the left were to set about galvanizing its already meagre resources to build anti-paedophile demonstrations, it can only aid the right if the left gets sidetracked by every cultural issue of abuse which arises and starts totally ignoring its cultural (edit; and political) context.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Well there was two. Which is evidently two too many.
> 
> Shame you won't be coming to Tower hamlets now. You could have shown me what a hard man you are irl.



i'd really still love to dickhead if you fancy it


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Well I'm always here. Let me know when you turn up.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

be in central London from the 14th for several weeks. seeing as i'm making the journey all the way down there i think it'd be fair for you to make it into town. gizza bell.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

No worries man. I pass through there daily.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

brill it's a date


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Wear your best perfume!


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

no point, it'll be overpowered by the stench of your shit


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Last time someone said something as lame as that I must have been ooooh, twelve?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> Protesting against the Iranian regime? *Yes*
> Protesting against the attack on Yugoslavia and the subsequent human rights violations of the (largely Muslim) Albanian-dominated government against the Serbs? *No*
> Protesting against Saudi Arabia's treatment of women? *Yes*
> Protesting against colonisation and settlement building in Morocco and Western Sahara and Darfur? *... No?*
> ...



So protesting against one western-backed regime dominated by Muslims (Kosovo) is reasonable and protesting against another (Saudi Arabia) is - ah forget it.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

froglady, you're really not being as smart as you think you are


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2010)

Remember folks: internet hardman is the clever one here.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 11, 2010)

Everyons hard on the internet


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> froglady, you're really not being as smart as you think you are



Talking down to?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> froglady, you're really not being as smart as you think you are



Im not trying to be smart. Im genuinely confused as to how you think that protesting against Saudi Arabia (which, i might as well remind you, is a US ally) is something that the british left should not do. There isn't any need to be rude btw. I take your points and I actually agree with a lot of them. I just don't see how leftists in this country should be squeamish about supporting the left in Islamic countries, who campaign against racism, misogyny, anti-semitism and other issues and emphasise their class struggle politics because Muslim communities over here are targetted by the government, media, etc. Surely it should be about solidarity between the working class of all countries and not adapting your campaigns to who you think is more oppressed depending on what country you're in? 

How about the poor situation of women in Iraq? Would it be right to protest against that? Or is that OK because that was the subject of an imperialist invasion?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 11, 2010)

Frogwoman is actually a lot smarter than she thinks she is.

Das Uberdog, by contrast, is a fuckwit who should be given das boot from these parts.


----------



## Blagsta (Jun 11, 2010)

froggy's pretty smart


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

thanks but i dont think so x


----------



## cantsin (Jun 11, 2010)

treelover said:


> Uberdog, you are pathetic,



this is a deeply complex argument, UDog has put a pretty strong case for the straight -'anti edl ' side ( though not sure I agree with him ) , how the fuck does that make him "pathetic " ?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

he's not pathetic. his posts have actually made me think,i don't agree with him mind.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 11, 2010)

i have a short cyber-fuse. doesn't always help get my point across.


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 11, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> edit; @frogmeister
> 
> it's not your place, nor is it Mr. Local himself, Citizen88's place, to protest against this group - _even if_ the Mosque has condemned it. it's an internal Islamic community issue, and if they're happy with the measures they've taken to ensure the Troxy group gets little attention and has little impact, then _it is fundamentally not for the left to go about demonstrating against them_. the left _should not_ be protesting against Muslims in Britain today. it makes zero sense, on any concievable level.




The left should not be seeing 'the Muslims' as a single homogeneous block.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2010)

well. quite


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jun 11, 2010)

@ DU To be fair I did agree about 50% with your initial point, but it got somewhat buried upon a steaming pile of cyber poo.

edi: actually make it 15%


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 12, 2010)

ohmyliver said:


> The left should not be seeing 'the Muslims' as a single homogeneous block.



i've never said anything you could sensibly construe as meaning that. all i've said is that the Troxy group is an issue for the ummah in all of its wonderful multi-faceted and faithed glory to deal with.


----------



## Cigarette paper (Jun 12, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i've never said anything you could sensibly construe as meaning that. all i've said is that the Troxy group is an issue for the ummah in all of its wonderful multi-faceted and faithed glory to deal with.



You do give me the impression of someone who has internalised the idea that Muslims are a monolithic bloc. I don't know how else you could justify a lot of your opinions.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 12, 2010)

no, explain _why_ what i've said suggests that Muslims are a homogeneous group of people.


----------



## JHE (Jun 12, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> all i've said is that the Troxy group is an issue for the ummah in all of its wonderful multi-faceted and faithed glory to deal with.



Us kuffar should know our place and shut up


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 13, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> edit; @frogmeister
> 
> it's not your place, nor is it Mr. Local himself, Citizen88's place, to protest against this group - _even if_ the Mosque has condemned it. it's an internal Islamic community issue, and if they're happy with the measures they've taken to ensure the Troxy group gets little attention and has little impact, then _it is fundamentally not for the left to go about demonstrating against them_. the left _should not_ be protesting against Muslims in Britain today. it makes zero sense, on any concievable level.



bollocks. You should always protest against that which is homophobic, sexist  bigoted, racist and so forth. Regardless of whichever bunch of pondlife are attacking them for quite different, equally odious reasons.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 13, 2010)

in which case, you've totally lost your class perspective and have descended into cultural politics.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 13, 2010)

Ah, misogyny and homophobia are a cultural issue so people should keep their noses out.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 13, 2010)

can you actually read?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> can you actually read?


can you actually think?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 13, 2010)

i'm sorry, care to explain how the comment before mine wasn't moronic or stfu?

actually dealing with tadpole fucking minds.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 13, 2010)

You seem to think that misogyny and homophobia from 'other cultures' in our communities is separate from class politics, even though it is likely to affect working class muslims.


Superior intellect my arse.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 13, 2010)

where did i say it was 'separate'?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 13, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> where did i say it was 'separate'?



Right here to Streathamite:



Das Uberdog said:


> in which case, you've totally lost your class perspective and have descended into cultural politics.



The implication being that he has somehow moved away from class politics and 'descended' into 'cultural' politics.


----------



## treelover (Jun 14, 2010)




----------



## treelover (Jun 14, 2010)

Looks like this is happening and the inevitable response, unless its a fake?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 14, 2010)

Didn't you actually start a thread on this? Why are you spamming it, are you involved?

edit: ok, seen report etc


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 14, 2010)

treelover said:


> Looks like this is happening and the inevitable response, unless its a fake?



Why are you giving this publicity?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 14, 2010)

Joe90 said:
			
		

> The implication being that he has somehow moved away from class politics and 'descended' into 'cultural' politics.



yeah, 'cos he has, by viewing issues of gender and such as somehow removed from the class struggle and as entities to be 'protested' in their own right. that's the opposite of what you accused me of when you said i was attempting to 'separate' class and gender.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 14, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> yeah, 'cos he has, by viewing issues of gender and such as somehow removed from the class struggle and as entities to be 'protested' in their own right. that's the opposite of what you accused me of when you said i was attempting to 'separate' class and gender.



I don't see how he is removing those things. It is you who is doing that and, indeed, only concerned with anti-fascism hence running around after the EDL with UAF.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 14, 2010)

treelover said:


>



That poster is so cool, can you buy them in Woolies?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 14, 2010)

Woolies doesn't exist.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Woolies doesn't exist.



No way, you're kidding?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 14, 2010)

Woolies are still online! I only just found that out the other day by the way!!!

http://www.woolworths.co.uk/


----------



## ernestolynch (Jun 14, 2010)

I'll get one from Athena.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 14, 2010)

Or Fop.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't see how he is removing those things. It is you who is doing that and, indeed, only concerned with anti-fascism hence running around after the EDL with UAF.



well, no, 'cos that's not what i literally just said. what i said was the opposite - it's you guys who are failing to see the question of anti-fascism and gender politics outside the sphere of class politics (and attaining the unity of white and Muslim working classes).


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 14, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> well, no, 'cos that's not what i literally just said. what i said was the opposite - it's you guys who are failing to see the question of anti-fascism and gender politics outside the sphere of class politics (and attaining the unity of white and Muslim working classes).



So we "attain the unity of the Muslim working class" by not opposing fuckwits preaching misogyny and homophobia in the community we share with them? You've lost me mate. I don't see how turning a blind eye to it helps the working class Muslim community at all. I also don't understand why it should be divorced from class politics. Perhaps you see it that way because you are in fact middle class and only engage in anti-fascism as working class politics might contradict your position.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 14, 2010)

I dont know what you are all giving this Uberdog so much grief because his position seems to be the most consistent.

He obviously sees the class struggle as being the defining one. As things stand the majority of the Muslim population of this country would fall within that category and thus could provide, ultimately, a lot of support to the left who have frankly alienated their traditional foot soliders amongst the white working classes who cannot be trusted to actually do what they are told and who still adhere to all that nonsense about patriotism and so on. 

Its the long game that matters so in the short term that means not alienating this new potential support from the working class Muslims. 

It appears contradictory and on the face of it you would have thought that the SWP would have been the first to be calling for demos and the like at this venue but, and credit where it is due, they have kept their eye on the main prize. 

I know that for most of you socialism has really become just another word for celebrating 'diversity' and being able to buy numerous different types of pasta in Waitrose but Uberdog and his colleagues strike me as being the ones keeping the red flag flying.

I might disagree with them and think them twats but at least they still have some notion of what it means to have a real political ideology and to pursue it as opposed to just wanting to feel good about yourself whilst secretly dreaming of that second home in Tuscany.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2010)

Right the class struggle is the most important one so we should ignore it. His position is all about race (and guilt) - he's the edl mirror image. I can see why a hard righter like you would lap him up - he's exactly what you need. 

In fact, what a mad post, you're actually defending the SWP for what they've abandoned and what other are defending. Bizarre. What new potential support? Have you missed the last 10 years or something? Cross alliances almost broke the SWP. They _were_ the fist calling for a demo - and on cross class grounds. wtf?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2010)

Stoat Boy said:


> I know that for most of you socialism has really become just another word for celebrating 'diversity' and being able to buy numerous different types of pasta in Waitrose but Uberdog and his colleagues strike me as being the ones keeping the red flag flying.
> 
> I might disagree with them and think them twats but at least they still have some notion of what it means to have a real political ideology and to pursue it as opposed to just wanting to feel good about yourself whilst secretly dreaming of that second home in Tuscany.



You're a fucking idiot.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Right the clsas struggle is the most important one so we should ignore it. His position is all about race (and guilt) - he's the edl mirror image. I can see why a hard righter like you would lap him up - he's exactly what you need.



Guilt my arse. Him and his comrades are just playing the cards that life has dealt them. Socialism got its arse kicked and seems dead and buried but they are still willing to give it go. But the point is that they are still playing as opposed to selling out to all those cosy notions about multi-cultrualism and equality which are actually the biggest con going because its all about a pick and mix approach based on what a bunch of soppy liberals want it to be.   

And in the game it makes sense not to alienate a group that feel increasingly disenfranchised from the system that ultimately they want to topple. My enemies enemy and all that old baloney.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2010)

Stoat Boy said:


> Guilt my arse. Him and his comrades are just playing the cards that life has dealt them. Socialism got its arse kicked and seems dead and buried but they are still willing to give it go. But the point is that they are still playing as opposed to selling out to all those cosy notions about multi-cultrualism and equality which are actually the biggest con going because its all about a pick and mix approach based on what a bunch of soppy liberals want it to be.
> 
> And in the game it makes sense not to alienate a group that feel increasingly disenfranchised from the system that ultimately they want to topple. My enemies enemy and all that old baloney.



You're absolutely back to front - the SWP are the biggest defenders of multi-culturalism - the UAF's counter demos are all on the basis of support of MC. You've made an arse of yourself and have waded in at the wrong end -and have brought a walloping great strawman along with you.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2010)

It's amazing that you can see tip-toeing around race and culture as a class approach. Esp posh-boy tip-toeing like hooverbags,


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You're absolutely back to front - the SWP are the biggest defenders of multi-culturalism - the UAF's counter demos are all on the basis of support of MC. You've made an arse of yourself and have waded in at the wrong end -and have brought a walloping great strawman along with you.



LOL. The SWP are just trying to keep themselves actually in a position to try and make a difference should 'events' go their way. Yes, they make all the right noises and the like but ultimately only ever defend 'multi-culturalism' when it serves their purpose i.e trying to be deemed as a friend to the Muslim. If they really gave a shit about it then they would be the ones leading the opposition to the sort of conference that EDL were going to protest against. 

They dont believe in it one little bit because ultimately its at complete odds with any version of traditional socialism that you care to mention.

Are they opportunists ? Without a shadow of a doubt but given the disastorous position of the entire left in terms of the political spectrum surely thats the only way to be ?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2010)

Stoat Boy said:


> LOL. The SWP are just trying to keep themselves actually in a position to try and make a difference should 'events' go their way. Yes, they make all the right noises and the like but ultimately only ever defend 'multi-culturalism' when it serves their purpose i.e trying to be deemed as a friend to the Muslim. If they really gave a shit about it then they would be the ones leading the opposition to the sort of conference that EDL were going to protest against.
> 
> They dont believe in it one little bit because ultimately its at complete odds with any version of traditional socialism that you care to mention.
> 
> Are they opportunists ? Without a shadow of a doubt but given the disastorous position of the entire left in terms of the political spectrum surely thats the only way to be ?




Mental - so those cutting to the chase and organising around class lines without this damaging flannel and attacking top-down multi-culturalism (which the SWP do genuinely beleive in btw) are those celebrating 'diversity' - you waded in at the wrong end you clown.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Mental - so those cutting to the chase and organising around class lines without this damaging flannel and attacking top-down multi-culturalism (which the SWP do genuinely beleive in btw) are those celebrating 'diversity' - you waded in at the wrong end you clown.




Oh come off  it. 

Do you really believe that anybody in the SWP 'genuinely' believe in multi-culturalism ? Its pure opportunism on their part and with a real logic behind it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2010)

I couldn't care fucking less - the fact is that your defence of them and attack on others confuses the positions of both sides - it reverses them in fact. Oddball.


----------



## treelover (Jun 14, 2010)

Froggie said 

'Why are you giving this publicity?'


Because it may be happening and will cause chaos if it does, however, I asked for a main thread to be pulled on it because it looks quite suspect, in fact it looks(the poster) like the very polished work the RCP used to do, but on this thread, tucked away on protest imo, it is an entirely legitimate discussion topic.


----------



## rioted (Jun 14, 2010)

Down with multiculturalism! Down with diversity!! The working class is monolithic or it is nothing!!! All power to Butchers and his workerist mates!!!!


----------



## tbaldwin (Jun 14, 2010)

Stoat Boy said:


> Are they opportunists ? Without a shadow of a doubt but given the disastorous position of the entire left in terms of the political spectrum surely thats the only way to be ?



The SWP have always been arch opportunists. Sadly they are preety dam useless at it.
The reason a lot of other lefties hate them is they are marginally more succesful...A lot of other lefties have very similar top down politics but are a bit embarrased by oppportunism....which holds them back.
In reality a lot of their politics is very similar to the SWPs....They all talk about the MASSES>>>>>but view them as not much better as a piece of dog shit on their shoes.


----------



## trevhagl (Jun 14, 2010)

the sad fact is i am more likely to bump into someone from EDL in the pub than i am SWP. something they might like to take on board


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 15, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Right the class struggle is the most important one so we should ignore it. His position is all about race (and guilt) - he's the edl mirror image. I can see why a hard righter like you would lap him up - he's exactly what you need.



how is my argument about race and guilt? point to where i've claimed the white population should self-flaggelate themselves for the crimes of their forefathers? what have i actually said which is in any way related to that point?



> In fact, what a mad post, you're actually defending the SWP for what they've abandoned and what other are defending. Bizarre. What new potential support? Have you missed the last 10 years or something? Cross alliances almost broke the SWP. They _were_ the fist calling for a demo - and on cross class grounds. wtf?



evidently you don't understand class - and you're quite happy to let the most disenfranchised working class community in Britain continue to be sidelined whilst you dance along to your soppish liberal harp. you're former RA intcha, butcha? might go some way to explaining your innaccurate white blokey take on w/c unity.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 15, 2010)

just another question here thrown into the mix; if the NF organized an 'anti-black gang' demonstration in Hackney or something, should the left both oppose them _and set up their own anti-black gang demonstration_?


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 15, 2010)

that's not a comparison of the situation at all though is it?

To match up, there would have to first have been arranged, at a prominent local venue, a group of New York black gangs coming over to give a conference on why it's Hackney gang members duty to mug non-black people.  Which I would suggest would be a perfectly fine thing to organise against.  This all being done after the New York gang conference has been kicked out of all of the local black venues for stirring up trouble.

basically you're talking out of your arse, and trying to make up comparisons which are completely fanciful (as the one above is)


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 15, 2010)

The Black Hand Gang?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 15, 2010)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> that's not a comparison of the situation at all though is it?
> 
> To match up, there would have to first have been arranged, at a prominent local venue, a group of New York black gangs coming over to give a conference on why it's Hackney gang members duty to mug non-black people.  Which I would suggest would be a perfectly fine thing to organise against.  This all being done after the New York gang conference has been kicked out of all of the local black venues for stirring up trouble.
> 
> basically you're talking out of your arse, and trying to make up comparisons which are completely fanciful (as the one above is)



no, because the fundamentals of the issue aren't about the organizational level of the group in question; this Troxy group could well just be a local gang and the counter-counter-counter-protest would still be defended by the anarchoids on here. the fundamentals are that they're a group which is damaging to the community and with a reactionary political character, but who appeal to a certain layer of a disenfranchised community. the only basis upon which the left should protest them is via their own members in the respective marginalized communities, not on those community's behalf.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 15, 2010)

Black gangs aren't on a political platform. If the NF wanted to march in Hackney about it no doubt they'd be doing it from a black people = criminals pov and casting white people in the role as the victims in all of it despite it being black people for the most part who are the victims of black gang culture. The only link I can see between this situation and the Muslim one is that black gang culture in the uk is a result of being disenfranchised members of society. But there isn't anyone standing on a podium encouraging black youth to take up arms and turn on their own communities, it's merely a by-product of the society we live in.


----------



## Davo1 (Jun 16, 2010)

e e edl!:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffdexter/4696960101/sizes/o/in/set-72157624268020580/

grrrrrrrr


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 16, 2010)

Sorry to hear that Davo. Perhaps writing lessons?


----------



## Davo1 (Jun 16, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry to hear that Davo. Perhaps writing lessons?



I dunt now whut you means .


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 16, 2010)

Interesting picture with the fash lurking ominously in the background.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 16, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> just another question here thrown into the mix; if the NF organized an 'anti-black gang' demonstration in Hackney or something, should the left both oppose them _and set up their own anti-black gang demonstration_?



stupid thing to say


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 16, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> e e edl!:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffdexter/4696960101/sizes/o/in/set-72157624268020580/
> 
> grrrrrrrr



this lot where in Cardiff the other week, same woman and kids from the photos.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 16, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> stupid thing to say



fuck off


----------



## TopCat (Jun 17, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> e e edl!:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffdexter/4696960101/sizes/o/in/set-72157624268020580/
> 
> grrrrrrrr



People hanging about?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 17, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> fuck off



Big boy trotsky...


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 17, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> e e edl!:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffdexter/4696960101/sizes/o/in/set-72157624268020580/
> 
> grrrrrrrr



This is them leaving Cardiff, feel sorry for the kids like... 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4671716647_6041207646_b.jpg


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2010)

'UAF TO MARCH AGAINST NON-EXISTENT PICKET OF NON-EXISTENT CONFERENCE'


Ian Bone has it right


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 17, 2010)

B0B2oo9 said:


> this lot where in Cardiff the other week, same woman and kids from the photos.



What a sad sorry bunch. I do pity the stupid fux, and that girl in particular. The myth of 'England' has a lot to answer for.


----------



## albionism (Jun 17, 2010)

B0B2oo9 said:


> this lot where in Cardiff the other week, same woman and kids from the photos.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/geoffdexter/4696960101/sizes/o/in/set-72157624268020580/
Looks like they fitted the young girl in the white Lyle and Scott jumper with a gum shield, in case it kicks off....just saying like.

poor poor fuckers....so utterly clueless.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 18, 2010)

I thought you'd all be interested in this press release denouncing the Troxy speakers from within the Muslim community



> PRESS STATEMENT FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> TOWER HAMLETS COMMUNITY STANDS UP TO FIGHT FASCISM IN ALL its COLOURS:
> The entry of the English Defence League (EDL) into Tower Hamlets to protest against a meeting organized under the auspices of the Federation of Student Islamic Societies (FOSIS) is a direct provocation to stir up racial tensions, foment dissent among faiths and attempt to bring disunity amongst the communities of the borough. We condemn the fascist EDL whose sole objective is to act as storm troopers for the British National Party (BNP) and pick up the pieces for them after their miserable rout in the local and national elections in neighbouring Barking and Dagenham Council. Under the guise of being non-political and upholding “English” values they are propagating a virulent form of naked Islamophobia which is rejected by the communities of Tower Hamlets. We will do everything in our power to defend the peace in the borough, protect the lives of Muslims and ensure that the unity amongst all is maintained.
> This borough has a rich tradition of successful challenge to fascist forces of the Blackshirts and the National Front. The Battle of Cable Street in the 30,s and the Struggle for Brick Lane following Altab Ali’s murder in the 70’s and the move to oust Derek Beackon in the 90’s is part of our common history. The values of universalism, anti-racism and no compromise with fascism inform our thinking and has become part of our existence. We will build on this rich tradition as we face Oswald Mosley’s grandchildren.
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> just another question here thrown into the mix; if the NF organized an 'anti-black gang' demonstration in Hackney or something, should the left both oppose them _and set up their own anti-black gang demonstration_?


you're not very good at this, are you.


----------



## Davo1 (Jun 19, 2010)

TopCat said:


> People hanging about?



nah, a small girl with social problems getting moody with ineffectual socialist men. She's in the middle of that picture I originally posted, and has an e e edl badge on.

At 1.08 in this video, she starts to punch them (both funny and disturbing in a good/bad way):



Disturbing mainly


----------



## Dan U (Jun 19, 2010)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> I thought you'd all be interested in this press release denouncing the Troxy speakers from within the Muslim community





really good to see that


----------



## JHE (Jun 19, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> if the NF organized an 'anti-black gang' demonstration in Hackney or something, should the left both oppose them _and set up their own anti-black gang demonstration_?



The Social Workers would denounce gangsterophobia and try to negotiate a Gangsta-Trot electoral alliance.  Prince Charles would make heartfelt speeches about how much we have to learn from the venerable traditions of Yardies.  The Labour Party would propose a law making it a criminal offence to disrespect thugs and robbers.  Boris Johnson would boast of his robber ancestors and praise the entrepreneurial spirit of gun-toting crack-dealers.


----------



## JHE (Jun 19, 2010)

*Poor old anarchs!*

*Unfortunately, four white local punk anarchists (who are actively against the EDL) were caught up in the atmosphere of paranoia and were attacked by 30 angry young Asian men.*​
See:  http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news7277.php

We mustn't be too critical of the "angry young Asian men", must we?  It would be too much to expect them not to beat up godless white kuffars with funny haircuts.


----------



## trevhagl (Jun 19, 2010)

B0B2oo9 said:


> This is them leaving Cardiff, feel sorry for the kids like...
> 
> http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4671716647_6041207646_b.jpg



funny how they can LIKE the jews when it suits em - i bet 2 years ago they were laughing about the holocaust!


----------



## albionism (Jun 21, 2010)

Yeah i reckon...Show your hatred of muslims via  Argos catalogue star of david.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 21, 2010)

trevhagl said:


> funny how they can LIKE the jews when it suits em - i bet 2 years ago they were laughing about the holocaust!



They still do


----------



## audiotech (Jun 21, 2010)

Thousands march in unity against racism and fascism.

http://uaf.org.uk/2010/06/thousands-march-in-unity-against-racism-and-fascism/


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 21, 2010)

What does EDL mean again?

Englanders Defending Likud?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 22, 2010)

News report on yesterday's Secular Society march in London (One Law for All). 


This report from Russia Today shows that much photographed EDL woman & two kids, from West Midlands 'division' speaking to their reporter. The RT news report also claims UAF joined the demos and shouted 'Allahu Akbar'.  
! RT are increasingly cited/linked by EDL


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 22, 2010)

Who are this MAtC lot? Are they anything to do with Islam 4 UK/Al Muj?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2010)

UAF chanting _Allahu Akbar_ in that vid above.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 22, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> What does EDL mean again?



Extremists/ Dupes / Losers


----------



## ohmyliver (Jun 22, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who are this MAtC lot? Are they anything to do with Islam 4 UK/Al Muj?



It would seem that they are Al Muj rebranded.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 22, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> UAF chanting _Allahu Akbar_ in that vid above.



No way!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2010)

I kid you not. 2.20 onwards.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 22, 2010)

I'll check when I get home. 

Do you reckon they'll convert?


----------



## OneStrike (Jun 22, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I kid you not. 2.20 onwards.




   Did the UAF actually join the MAtC demo or was that a bad bit of reporting?


----------



## revlon (Jun 22, 2010)

young asian lads who broke away from the uaf demo in whitechapel and went to find the edl in central london. 

Why then continued to carry the uaf placards to downing st is anyone's guess.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 22, 2010)

Luther Blissett said:


> News report on yesterday's Secular Society march in London (One Law for All).
> 
> 
> This report from Russia Today shows that much photographed EDL woman & two kids, from West Midlands 'division' speaking to their reporter. The RT news report also claims UAF joined the demos and shouted 'Allahu Akbar'.
> ! RT are increasingly cited/linked by EDL





Poor kids man..


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 22, 2010)

The thing is, not everyone a counter EDL demos is UAF.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 22, 2010)

Davo1 said:


> nah, a small girl with social problems getting moody with ineffectual socialist men. She's in the middle of that picture I originally posted, and has an e e edl badge on.
> 
> At 1.08 in this video, she starts to punch them (both funny and disturbing in a good/bad way):
> 
> ...




Is there any logic in two groups standing there hurling slogans at each other?

The anti-fash guy is seemingly a failed pop star who had to quickly find a new vocation to justify the purchase of the microphone, or something.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Jun 22, 2010)

revlon said:


> young asian lads who broke away from the uaf demo in whitechapel and went to find the edl in central london.
> 
> Why then continued to carry the uaf placards to downing st is anyone's guess.



That Russia today report also showed the Police arresting and removing the EDL lot as they did not have permission to march. 

I wonder if the Sharia people did have permission ?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I kid you not. 2.20 onwards.



Here's images of the police, escorting a group from Whitechapel all the way to Downing Street, where they place them in a pen next to the Islamist MaC/I4UK/Al-M (between the NSS's One Law for All anti-Sharia demonstration and the counter-demoing MaC). 
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheBisub#p/a/u/0/LjZU9q5aKwg

This is the group with UAF banners and cries of Allahu Akbar that we see enter in the OLFA video.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 24, 2010)

sounds like a confused day tbh - i don't think you can seriously read Sharia-Lawrites into a bunch of kids who splintered from a UAF demo when they heard the EDL were in town. it's no secret that Allahu Akhbar gets chanted by Islamic sections on some UAF demos, but it's abit much to read into this that UAF is somehow organizing with and coordinating the activities of a broader layer of Islam 4 UK activists or something.

kids hear about EDL, they go to protest, police corrall them into the most immediately convenient 'group' and they all chant Allah is greatest.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 24, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> sounds like a confused day tbh - i don't think you can seriously read Sharia-Lawrites into a bunch of kids who splintered from a UAF demo when they heard the EDL were in town. it's no secret that Allahu Akhbar gets chanted by Islamic sections on some UAF demos, but it's abit much to read into this that UAF is somehow organizing with and coordinating the activities of a broader layer of Islam 4 UK activists or something.
> 
> kids hear about EDL, they go to protest, police corrall them into the most immediately convenient 'group' and they all chant Allah is greatest.



Why did the police facilitate their march to Downing Street and direct them to the MaC pen?


----------



## treelover (Jun 24, 2010)

'"Police officers were attacked by the crowd at points throughout the afternoon. One member of the public was attacked at random by members of the crowd as those gathered surged up and down the Whitechapel Road. '

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-attacked-during-antiracist-march-2006407.html'



i love the way the SWP will go out of their way to condone and 'understand' the behaviour/activities of young muslim men but when it comes to similar WWC kids who may do bad things like march with the EDL, they 'have to be smashed'


----------



## treelover (Jun 24, 2010)

'Upon reflection WAG believes the UAF, who had spent the previous few weeks scaremongering, behaved irresponsibly in what turned out to be nothing more than a sensational recruitment drive. Despite organizing a 5000-strong march, they obviously felt no sense of responsibility towards local people once they had realized few were willing to be recruited– fleeing Whitechapel for the provinces after giving their speeches and selling their papers. A few hours after the march ended they were nowhere to be seen, leaving the police and locals in a tense stand-off.'

http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpress.com/


power without responsibility?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 24, 2010)

treelover said:


> 'Upon reflection WAG believes the UAF, who had spent the previous few weeks scaremongering, behaved irresponsibly in what turned out to be nothing more than a sensational recruitment drive. Despite organizing a 5000-strong march, they obviously felt no sense of responsibility towards local people once they had realized few were willing to be recruited– fleeing Whitechapel for the provinces after giving their speeches and selling their papers. A few hours after the march ended they were nowhere to be seen, leaving the police and locals in a tense stand-off.'
> 
> http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpress.com/


I was about to point you to the heavy-handed policing that was witnessed by WAG


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 24, 2010)

I think this stuff just shows that the SWP have learnt nothing from the RESPECT debacle - and will learn nothing whilst they continue entertain their essentially (imagined)  proprietary relationship with muslim communities. They should have learnt that the latter have their own interests and their own class cleavages which they will act on and there's nothing the SWP can do about it. The same farce is playing out once more - not in council chambers this time but 'in the streets' (ugh). 

They really need to learn sharpish that their attitude that us and only us have the right to engage with muslim communities (_we own them_), the rest of you are racists if you challenge this - because they're helping heighten racial tensions and instead of the model we're always presented with of the swp pulling muslims towards class politics their antics are actually pushing more and more people further into solely muslim identities. 

I don't blame people for reacting in such a way in the face of such blatant provocations btw but if the UAF tactics (scaremongering, talking militant etc) are helping to _further_ this then it effects us all and we have the responsibility to criticise their approach - and we have the right not to be labeled racist in return.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jun 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I think this stuff just shows that the SWP have learnt nothing from the RESPECT debacle - and will learn nothing whilst they continue entertain their essentially (imagined)  proprietary relationship with muslim communities. They should have learnt that the latter have their own interests and their own class cleavages which they will act on and there's nothing the SWP can do about it. The same farce is playing out once more - not in council chambers this time but 'in the streets' (ugh).
> 
> They really need to learn sharpish that their attitude that us and only us have the right to engage with muslim communities (_we own them_), the rest of you are racists if you challenge this - because they're helping heighten racial tensions and instead of the model we're always presented with of the swp pulling muslims towards class politics their antics are actually pushing more and more people further into solely muslim identities.
> 
> I don't blame people for reacting in such a way in the face of such blatant provocations btw but if the UAF tactics (scaremongering, talking militant etc) are helping to _further_ this then it effects us all and we have the responsibility to criticise their approach - and we have the right not to be labeled racist in return.



PC Butch


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I think this stuff just shows that the SWP have learnt nothing from the RESPECT debacle - and will learn nothing whilst they continue entertain their essentially (imagined)  proprietary relationship with muslim communities. They should have learnt that the latter have their own interests and their own class cleavages which they will act on and there's nothing the SWP can do about it. The same farce is playing out once more - not in council chambers this time but 'in the streets' (ugh).
> 
> They really need to learn sharpish that their attitude that us and only us have the right to engage with muslim communities (_we own them_), the rest of you are racists if you challenge this - because they're helping heighten racial tensions and instead of the model we're always presented with of the swp pulling muslims towards class politics their antics are actually pushing more and more people further into solely muslim identities.
> 
> I don't blame people for reacting in such a way in the face of such blatant provocations btw but if the UAF tactics (scaremongering, talking militant etc) are helping to _further_ this then it effects us all and we have the responsibility to criticise their approach - and we have the right not to be labeled racist in return.



I agree with everything you said there, butchersapron.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 24, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> in which case, you've totally lost your class perspective and have descended into cultural politics.


what utter rubbish.
you _don't_ think working class people are victims of misogyny, homophobia and other prejudices? typical idiotic swappie ;posturing, and as near-perfect illustration, as any I've seen, as to why the Socialist Burkas Party are a total irrelevance to and in the lives of the british working classes.
and it is NOT 'cultural politics' to take a stand whenever such ugly things rear their head - it's called 'principles' - those selfsame principles you all merrily jettisoned to form WESPECK


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 24, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> yeah, 'cos he has, by viewing issues of gender and such as somehow removed from the class struggle and as entities to be 'protested' in their own right. that's the opposite of what you accused me of when you said i was attempting to 'separate' class and gender.


actually,as is pitifully obvious, I was doing precisely the opposite. the one doesn't preclude the other, you know


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 24, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I think this stuff just shows that the SWP have learnt nothing from the RESPECT debacle - and will learn nothing whilst they continue entertain their essentially (imagined)  proprietary relationship with muslim communities. They should have learnt that the latter have their own interests and their own class cleavages which they will act on and there's nothing the SWP can do about it. The same farce is playing out once more - not in council chambers this time but 'in the streets' (ugh).
> 
> They really need to learn sharpish that their attitude that us and only us have the right to engage with muslim communities (_we own them_), the rest of you are racists if you challenge this - because they're helping heighten racial tensions and instead of the model we're always presented with of the swp pulling muslims towards class politics their antics are actually pushing more and more people further into solely muslim identities.
> 
> I don't blame people for reacting in such a way in the face of such blatant provocations btw but if the UAF tactics (scaremongering, talking militant etc) are helping to _further_ this then it effects us all and we have the responsibility to criticise their approach - and we have the right not to be labeled racist in return.


you've just said what I was trying - and failing - to articulate.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> PC Butch



Quite.

Rastafari!


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 24, 2010)

Streathamite said:


> actually,as is pitifully obvious, I was doing precisely the opposite. the one doesn't preclude the other, you know



if you believe that cultural issues need to be protested in their own right, separate from the context of uniting the class in common struggle, then you _are_ separating the two. that is unavoidable fact, here for all of us to see.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 24, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> if you believe that cultural issues need to be protested in their own right, separate from the context of uniting the class in common struggle, then you _are_ separating the two. that is unavoidable fact, here for all of us to see.



No, it is you who is doing that. You appear to be compartmentalising homophobia and misogyny in the Muslim community as a 'cultural thing' and therefore we should keep our noses out of Muslim business.

Everyone else is arguing that the victims of said homophobia and misogyny are likely to be w/c Muslims, so it should be opposed as _part_ of class solidarity.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 25, 2010)

they are cultural issues, because they can impact people on a cross-class basis a la 1970s militant feminism, black nationalism, etc.

and also what's being missed out is that many of the Muslim 'victims' of mysogyny and homophobia are to a certain degree willing victims, insofar as they have internalised the conservative cultural belief system of the Mosque. raving on at a group of Muslims about their reactionary beliefs when in fact what is needed is for them to be united with is counter-productive and absent of class understanding.

edit; just to be clear, my position is that these issues _should_ be engaged with, but on a case-by-case basis rather than as part of a campaign to root out reactionary values within the Islamic community or something.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> and also what's being missed out is that many of the Muslim 'victims' of mysogyny and homophobia are to a certain degree willing victims, insofar as they have internalised the conservative cultural belief system of the Mosque.



That's okay then.

Also, love the 'victims' bit.

_They're not real victims. They fucking loves it!_


----------



## dennisr (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> raving on at a group of Muslims about their reactionary beliefs when in fact what is needed is for *them* to be united with is counter-productive and absent of class understanding.



eh? 
are you saying _they_ (as in Muslims) have to be united??
i hope that is just poor english on your part....

so how do we bring *class unity* into the equation? what issues do we unite people around? why did the demonstration organisers not push *class* issues - "jobs, homes, not racism, make the bankers pay for their crisis". Issues that would concretely 'unite'. What better way to show *real unity* of East End folk against a real and potentially divisive threat to all??


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 25, 2010)

If uaf wanted class unity then it'd have to be with middle class Muslims.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 25, 2010)

dennisr said:


> eh?
> are you saying _they_ (as in Muslims) have to be united??
> i hope that is just poor english on your part....
> 
> so how do we bring *class unity* into the equation? what issues do we unite people around? why did the demonstration organisers not push *class* issues - "jobs, homes, not racism, make the bankers pay for their crisis". Issues that would concretely 'unite'. What better way to show *real unity* of East End folk against a real and potentially divisive threat to all??



a) obviously, i'm not arguing for some Islamic popular front.
b) i would agree with arguing that UAF demos should push jobs, homes, and other class issues on the platform. most SWP members i know do. however, the SWP doesn't control every aspect of UAF.

and even in the absence of these progressive campaigns, i would argue against the 70-esque culture politics being propounded by most of the urbanites on this thread.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 25, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> That's okay then.
> 
> Also, love the 'victims' bit.
> 
> _They're not real victims. They fucking loves it!_



you evidently don't have a very subtle understanding of religious communities, or the way to engage with them.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> you evidently don't have a very subtle understanding of religious communities, or the way to engage with them.



Do you engage with them by applying completely different rules to 'them' and 'us' and generally behaving like a patronising patriarch?

Because if so, I reckon you've got the formula sorted.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 25, 2010)

as mentioned, you engage with them by focussing on class unity, not by coming at them from an outsider perspective and protesting against 'mysogyny and homophobia within the Muslim community'


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> you engage with them by focussing on class unity, not by coming at them from an outsider perspective



Lol.

Hypocrisy at its finest.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> as mentioned, you engage with them by focussing on class unity, not by coming at them from an outsider perspective and protesting against 'mysogyny and homophobia within the Muslim community'



Also, I think you've characterised me a bit off here. I'm not for 'protesting against misogyny and homophobia in the (cough splutter) Muslim community'*. I'm just not for applying double standards and saying reactionary views are okay if you happen to not be white, which is essentially what SWP and UAF do.

Here's a novel idea; focus on class. Recognise the beleaguered and oppressed position of UK Muslims, absolutely, but - shock horror - Muslims are people too. They are no more or less likely to recognise their class interests than any other section of society.

The Swappies really did buy this whole multicultural divide and conquer bollocks wholesale didn't they?

*Christ I hate the use of 'the Muslim community', 'the Hindu community' blah blah


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 25, 2010)

i'm perfectly happy to focus on class, moreso than is currently done at present within UAF. as i say, i also believe most SWP members take that default stance in their actions and speeches within UAF anyway. but if you're counterposing your argument against mine in context with this thread (and with no equivalent criticism of the majority of the thread who are equally critical of my position) then expect me to assume you're default defending their tactical position; i.e., that community events such as this Troxy one (which actually, when you look into it a little more, was actually organised by the moderates of the local Isoc, not wannabe terrorists) should be _actively protested_ with _equal vigour_ to the EDL demonstration.

if you genuinely can't see the difference between the two, then you're operating from fucking Mars.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'm perfectly happy to focus on class, moreso than is currently done at present within UAF. as i say, i also believe most SWP members take that default stance in their actions and speeches within UAF anyway. but if you're counterposing your argument against mine in context with this thread (and with no equivalent criticism of the majority of the thread who are equally critical of my position) then expect me to assume you're default defending their tactical position; i.e., that community events such as this Troxy one (which actually, when you look into it a little more, was actually organised by the moderates of the local Isoc, not wannabe terrorists) should be _actively protested_ with _equal vigour_ to the EDL demonstration.
> 
> if you genuinely can't see the difference between the two, then you're operating from fucking Mars.



What a silly swerper...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'm perfectly happy to focus on class, moreso than is currently done at present within UAF. as i say, i also believe most SWP members take that default stance in their actions and speeches within UAF anyway. but if you're counterposing your argument against mine in context with this thread (and with no equivalent criticism of the majority of the thread who are equally critical of my position) then expect me to assume you're default defending their tactical position; i.e., that community events such as this Troxy one (which actually, when you look into it a little more, was actually organised by the moderates of the local Isoc, not wannabe terrorists) should be _actively protested_ with _equal vigour_ to the EDL demonstration.
> 
> if you genuinely can't see the difference between the two, then you're operating from fucking Mars.



But I haven't passed comment on Troxy.

You seem to be saying that _by not commenting_ I must therefore be wholly in favour of protesting against it. What strange logic.

As it happens, I know sweet fuck all about this Troxy shindig, nor anything about its organisers. Hence why I haven't commented. I know, I know, it's very novel isn't it?

I do know a little about how UAF operate, and of the deeply contradictory and confused approach to 'community cohesion' (eurgh - another term I despise) displayed by the SWP, however, so I am commenting on that.

I don't think any section of society, if espousing reactionary views, should be above and beyond reproach. I also recognise, however, that in terms of threat, fundies of all colours and creeds are pretty low down the pecking order, whereas yer EDL's are drawing out thousands on a fairly frequent basis; ergo this is where the focus should be.

Somewhere along the way, the SWP got themselves all into a tizwas with multiculturalism; and consequentially display the most appalling double standards and patriarchalism, supported by some very confused logic and a lot of moral indignation on behalf of 'teh Muslims', as if they were some homogeneous and exclusive club completely separated and isolated from every other section of society. And it really isn't doing anybody any good. I'd hoped that the Respect debacle might have shifted perspectives amongst the SWP, and for a time I think it may have started to, but then along came the EDL and the whole charade got reduced to pantomime. It is very unbecoming, and I'm at a loss to see where the socialism in all this is supposed to be.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> as mentioned, you engage with them by focussing on class unity, not by coming at them from an outsider perspective and protesting against 'mysogyny and homophobia within the Muslim community'



What about genital mutilation? ignore that too? So called honour killings? Imprisonment of women in the home? Cultural issues eh? Do you not have a sense of right and wrong?


----------



## dennisr (Jun 25, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> b) i would agree with arguing that UAF demos should push jobs, homes, and other class issues on the platform. most SWP members i know do. however, the SWP doesn't control every aspect of UAF.



You agree with me in theory here on this thread, when i raise it after you come out with a load of confused gobbledegook -  but then you excuse your 'cdes' by claiming you do not control UAF.

Maybe as trot-style socialists you should take a leaf out of the old man's book (and your own, after all you reprinted it...)  - organise a united front rather than a popular one - a common platform of anti-fascism based on class unity - rather than cross-class illusion. Unite around a common programme rather than liberal anti-nazi generalisations.

Stop inviting Tories to speak for a start - feckers like that create the situation fascism and racism is able to breed in


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

TopCat said:


> What about genital mutilation? ignore that too? So called honour killings? Imprisonment of women in the home? Cultural issues eh? Do you not have a sense of right and wrong?



no, because nothing is 'right' or 'wrong'.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

dennisr said:


> You agree with me in theory here on this thread, when i raise it after you come out with a load of confused gobbledegook -  but then you excuse your 'cdes' by claiming you do not control UAF.
> 
> Maybe as trot-style socialists you should take a leaf out of the old man's book (and your own, after all you reprinted it...)  - organise a united front rather than a popular one - a common platform of anti-fascism based on class unity - rather than cross-class illusion. Unite around a common programme rather than liberal anti-nazi generalisations.
> 
> Stop inviting Tories to speak for a start - feckers like that create the situation fascism and racism is able to breed in



where have Tories ever spoken at UAF events?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> But I haven't passed comment on Troxy.
> 
> You seem to be saying that _by not commenting_ I must therefore be wholly in favour of protesting against it. What strange logic.



no, i was saying that in the context of this debate if you wade in against me without referring to the arguments already going on (which you may or may not disapprove of) then it's fair for me to assume you support them.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, because nothing is 'right' or 'wrong'.



So why demonstrate against the EDL then if they are neither of the above, in your view?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

for blatantly obvious strategical reasons in line with the ultimate objective of attaining socialism.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Why want to achieve socialism if it is neither right or wrong?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> where have Tories ever spoken at UAF events?



What?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, i was saying that in the context of this debate if you wade in against me without referring to the arguments already going on (which you may or may not disapprove of) then it's fair for me to assume you support them.



No it isn't.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

yes it is, dickhead


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

and go on, give a fucking example of where Tories have spoken at UAF events while you're at it


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> yes it is, dickhead



No it isn't, you giant knob. Saying 'if you don't speak in support of us, you must be against us' is politics for fucking cretins and Stalinists.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> and go on, give a fucking example of where Tories have spoken at UAF events while you're at it



I can't be arsed trawling the web. You have David fucking Cameron on your books for fucks sake.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

a) that's not what i said, learn to fucking read
b) David Cameron isn't on the books, he said he supported UAF in a totally isolated situation with no UAF involvement whatsoever. all i'm asking you for is one single example to show you're not talking out of your arse


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Why want to achieve socialism if it is neither right or wrong?



because i, personally, would prefer it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> a) that's not what i said, learn to fucking read
> b) David Cameron isn't on the books, he said he supported UAF in a totally isolated situation with no UAF involvement whatsoever. all i'm asking you for is one single example to show you're not talking out of your arse



a) same fucking difference. 'You're either with us or against us' blah blah

b) he's a signatory you dickhead

http://uaf.org.uk/about/founding-signatories/


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

a) it's not the same thing you moron, and
b) i didn't know that and it's genuinely enough to make me consider leaving UAF and arguing against the entire strategy


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> because i, personally, would prefer it.



But why would you personally prefer it?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

'cos it's better for me. i wouldn't have to worry about bills and shit.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Why, what's wrong with bills and shit?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

nothing, in some abstract sense about 'right' or 'wrong'. i just don't like them 'cos they stop me doing stuff i wanna do.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2010)

Scintillating analysis of the socialist cause here


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Scintillating analysis of the socialist cause here



That isn't what we're doing. He reckons there's "no such thing as right and wrong" which is plainly bollocks.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2010)

Wow. Striner's moral void egoism reborn in the SWP. Genuinely fantastic.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> That isn't what we're doing. He reckons there's "no such thing as right and wrong" which is plainly bollocks.



don't mind PT, he can't read.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> nothing, in some abstract sense about 'right' or 'wrong'. i just don't like them 'cos they stop me doing stuff i wanna do.


confirming that you're a wrong un and not in a good way


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Wow. Striner's moral void egoism reborn in the SWP. Genuinely fantastic.



so you believe in 'right' and 'wrong' then?

P.S. there's a difference between a subjective morality, which i possess, and some kind of confusion over 'right' or 'wrong'. i am capable of rationally justifying my morality, don't know about you.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> confirming that you're a wrong un and not in a good way


 oh hey genius, been following the thread for a while?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> so you believe in 'right' and 'wrong' then?
> 
> P.S. there's a difference between a subjective morality, which i possess, and some kind of confusion over 'right' or 'wrong'. i am capable of rationally justifying my morality, don't know about you.



It is wrong to exploit another human being for personal gain.

Ok, do you agree with that sentence? Or how would you reword it?

I'm beginning to think you're just a troll btw.


----------



## pinkpumkin (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, because nothing is 'right' or 'wrong'.



So we must achieve socialism so that you don't have to pay your bills. But we don't mind if there is a bit of genital mutilation, honour killings and imprisonment of women in the home along the way cause nothing is 'right' or 'wrong'.

Cultural relativism at its wankiest.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> so you believe in 'right' and 'wrong' then?
> 
> P.S. there's a difference between a subjective morality, which i possess, and some kind of confusion over 'right' or 'wrong'. i am capable of rationally justifying my morality, don't know about you.



I like this attempt at teenage philosophy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> oh hey genius, been following the thread for a while?



there's no need to display your fuckwittery - a simple search reveals i've been following it since 9 june.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 26, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> That isn't what we're doing. He reckons there's "no such thing as right and wrong" which is plainly bollocks.



Don't worry C66, was thinking more of the 'bills and shit' thing


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> so you believe in 'right' and 'wrong' then?
> 
> P.S. there's a difference between a subjective morality, which i possess, and some kind of confusion over 'right' or 'wrong'. i am capable of rationally justifying my morality, don't know about you.



go on then


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

pinkpumkin said:


> So we must achieve socialism so that you don't have to pay your bills. But we don't mind if there is a bit of genital mutilation, honour killings and imprisonment of women in the home along the way cause nothing is 'right' or 'wrong'.
> 
> Cultural relativism at its wankiest.



Good time to break out of the lurking! Top lurking btw.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Don't worry C66, was thinking more of the 'bills and shit' thing



Ah right, no worries. He's getting more bizarre by the post. I think butchers has hit the nail on the head with the 'teenage philosophy' thing.


----------



## pinkpumkin (Jun 26, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Good time to break out of the lurking! Top lurking btw.



super lurking for teh win!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 26, 2010)

Catch you in seven years.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> for blatantly obvious strategical reasons in line with the ultimate objective of attaining socialism.



is that how socialism is achieved? can you point out precisely how?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 26, 2010)

pinkpumkin said:


> super lurking for teh win!



definitely


----------



## dennisr (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> b) i didn't know that and it's genuinely enough to make me consider leaving UAF and arguing against the entire strategy



left yet?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

jeeeeeesus, there are some sad fucking morons on urban75. no kidding, i'm feeling so intellectually superior to you all right now that even considering responding to any one of your idiotic 'questions' is quite beyond me. really would like to see some of you guys som day. wonder how many of you look like this pathetic geezer; 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





however, as per usual, highest prize for old, pathetic 'past-his-prime' bastard has to go to kitchenapron. where others merely feel some vague sense of self-superiority in ploughing through their linear righteous liberal bullshit, kitchenapron over here goes one step further, and reaaaally tries hard to engage with the stupidity - mixing in confused and crude philosophical arguments with what are essentially misplaced theoretical disputes.

actually incredible how fucking dense the collective consciousness of urban can be.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Don't worry C66, was thinking more of the 'bills and shit' thing



quoted for pathetic, pathetic hilarity.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> there's no need to display your fuckwittery - a simple search reveals i've been following it since 9 june.



another cringingly pathetic cracker. big fucking man! lmao


----------



## One_Stop_Shop (Jun 26, 2010)

It seemed like a simple question to me from dennisr.

I'd seriously consider giving these boards a break if they wind you up this much. Your posts are getting pretty crazy.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 26, 2010)

wasn't particularly directed towards dennis.


----------



## IMR (Jun 26, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> wonder how many of you look like this pathetic geezer;



Not having a go at you, but was curious about that photo.

Is that a random man or is he noted for some wrongness? It'd make a good avatar pic, so long as he's not a nonce or something similar.


----------



## treelover (Jun 26, 2010)

Thats your dad Ubermensch


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 27, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> quoted for pathetic, pathetic hilarity.



You're right, saying you want socialism because you don't like "bills and shit" is both pathetic and hilarious.

Perhaps if you're nice enough to Mr Cameron he might invite a swappie onto the cabinet.

Hasta la victoria, comrades.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 27, 2010)

IMR said:


> Not having a go at you, but was curious about that photo.
> 
> Is that a random man or is he noted for some wrongness? It'd make a good avatar pic, so long as he's not a nonce or something similar.



i'm not aware of him having committed any particular offence, i just typed 'sad bastard' into google images or something.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 27, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> no kidding, i'm feeling so intellectually superior to you all right now



You may have managed to delude yourself of such but you demonstratively aren't.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 27, 2010)

still lmaoing at the pathetic twats on urban75...


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 27, 2010)

How very intellectually superior of you.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 27, 2010)

in it for the last post on this thread, citizen?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 27, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> in it for the last post on this thread, citizen?



Trying to trash the thread, Uberdog?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jun 27, 2010)

Fuck me, it's like a baby screaming for tit


----------



## Das Uberdog (Jun 27, 2010)

my my, what freudian insults you have


----------



## IMR (Jun 27, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> i'm not aware of him having committed any particular offence, i just typed 'sad bastard' into google images or something.



OK fair enough, I thought it was quite a funny pic.


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 28, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> a) same fucking difference. 'You're either with us or against us' blah blah
> 
> b) he's a signatory you dickhead
> 
> http://uaf.org.uk/about/founding-signatories/



As are Teddy Taylor right-wing Tory nutjob and Martin Smyth MP UUP,orange bigot and former Western Goals supporter.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 28, 2010)

I've always wanted to move to Weston and set up a football team with that name.


----------



## treelover (Jun 28, 2010)

I've just seen this video, why did TH youth who were on the UAF march join up with the Islamists/MAC and shout God is Great' and oppose the secualarist One Law For All, Uk left politics is going bonkers and very dangerous

http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday#p/u/26/9qt_Q06wI8o


----------



## Davo1 (Jun 28, 2010)

treelover said:


> I've just seen this video, why did TH youth who were on the UAF march join up with the Islamists/MAC and shout God is Great' and oppose the secualarist One Law For All, Uk left politics is going bonkers and very dangerous
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday#p/u/26/9qt_Q06wI8o



Can I recommend this thread on Indymedia, where One Law For All post and are called 'Fascists' by loads of people who seem to be well into Iran. Some UAF people have decided they are as bad as the NAZIBNPFASCISTEDL and suggest a counter protest:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/06/454271.html

Just a snippet for your amusement:



> Stirring up more hatred against Muslims yet with a more respectable face. One Law For All can be compared to UKIP whilst the EDL is BNP.
> 
> One may look more respectable than the other but at the core they are just as hateful and racist as the EDL are. Same as the more respectable looking UKIP are just as racist and hateful as the BNP.
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2010)

Amazing, a bunch of iranian and Iraqi communists in exile (some having been tortured, jailed and beaten in Iran and Iraq) compared to the UKIP. Spinning out of control.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jun 29, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing, a bunch of iranian and Iraqi communists in exile (some having been tortured, jailed and beaten in Iran and Iraq) compared to the UKIP. Spinning out of control.



Surely EDL wouldn't have known where to put themselves?
Islamists _opposing _ communists? 
Communists opposing Islamists? 

Since March 2010, communists, anarchists, tradesunions were added to their 'people to oppose'. So much for being a single-issue group opposed to extremist muslims. They're a shambles.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 29, 2010)

Trolling by fascists on indymedia is rife. Just a thought like. I know one SWP member based in Bristol who joined with the secularists demo and I can assure you that's genuine.

Another header of the ball is found with home made explosives:



> Police found a pipe packed with nails and screws and charged with powder in the 16 year old’s bedroom, and a pipe with a firework inside hidden under a waste oil tank at a nearby petrol station.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-nailbombs-with-chemicals-bought-on-eBay.html


...


----------



## TopCat (Jun 29, 2010)

Das Uberdog said:


> jeeeeeesus, there are some sad fucking morons on urban75. no kidding, i'm feeling so intellectually superior to you all right now that even considering responding to any one of your idiotic 'questions' is quite beyond me. really would like to see some of you guys som day. wonder how many of you look like this pathetic geezer;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are hardly superior to anyone here. You have displayed little rational thinking or indeed the ability to reason through an argument that you assert. 

Very funny but to be fair we are all laughing at you rather than with you.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Trolling by fascists on indymedia is rife. Just a thought like. I know one SWP member based in Bristol who joined with the secularists demo and I can assure you that's genuine.
> 
> Another header of the ball is found with home made explosives:
> 
> ...



Good edit.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 29, 2010)

Anybody know why the Antifa newswire is down?


----------



## sihhi (Jul 2, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Amazing, a bunch of iranian and Iraqi communists in exile (some having been tortured, jailed and beaten in Iran and Iraq) compared to the UKIP. Spinning out of control.





Can someone tell me who were the speakers at the rally

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/06/24/anti-fascism-east-london-under-whose-banner



> This “platform” has substantial political problems of its own, but it does at least make clear that the idea of the Bengali community being a homogeneous political bloc under the leadership of religious zealots is essentially a racist fantasy. Unfortunately the organised secularist elements decided to effectively boycott the United East End demonstration. Without such an intervention, Islamists were able to retain hegemony of the demonstration, supported by their sycophantic “left-wing” fans in Respect and the SWP.
> Consequently, and unfortunately, the demonstration had a distinctly religious character. The SWP-led chants of “black and white, unite and fight” proved less popular than “Allahu Akbar”. Councillor Helal Abbas, who publicly called for the Islamist conference to be cancelled, was booed off the stage at the rally. Every other speaker (including George Galloway) said that it was a disgrace that the conference had been cancelled.



I've found this from SW



> The rally was also addressed by Motin Uz-Zaman, mayor of Tower Hamlets; Tower Hamlets councillor Abjol Miah; Steve Hart, regional organiser for the Unite union; Hugh Lanning, deputy general secretary, PCS union; Councillor Helal Abbas, leader of Tower Hamlets Council; John Biggs, London Assembly Member; Laura Maxwell, Jewish Council for Racial Equality; Rushanara Ali MP for Bethnal Green and Bow, and Tower Hamlets college lecturer Richard McEwan for the UCU union.





> Diwar Khan, Director of East London Mosque
> Alex Kenny, NUT east London branch secretary
> Leon Silver from the East London Central Synagogue
> Max Levitas Cable Street veteran
> ...



Tally
2 'SWP' or 'SWP line-follower' John McLoughlin + Richard McEwen.
3 Union 'bureaucrats' Alex Kenny, Steve Hart, Hugh Lanning [Hart pro-Labour]
5 Labour Motin uz-Zaman, Hellal Abbas, John Biggs, Rushanara Ali, Oliur Rahman (ex-Respect) 
2 Respect George Galloway, Abjol Miah [strongly pro-IFE]
1 ordinary religious conservative Muslim leadership Dilwar Khan
2 Jewish community organisations Laura Maxwell, Leon Silver


----------



## audiotech (Jul 4, 2010)




----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 4, 2010)

Heh. Reminds me of this banner in Berlin:


----------



## JHE (Jul 4, 2010)

audiotech said:


>



Turkeys for Christmas, Women for Peter Sutcliffe, Jews for Nazism, Trots for Uncle Joe, Protestants for the Inquisition and now we've also got Anarchists for Islam!






Anarcho-Islamism:  Neither God, except Allah, nor master, except Sharia and the Caliph and his servants!   Alllahu akbaaaaar!


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 4, 2010)

JHE said:


> Turkeys for Christmas, Women for Peter Sutcliffe, Jews for Nazism, Trots for Uncle Joe, Protestants for the Inquisition and now we've also got Anarchists for Islam!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have a word with yourself.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 4, 2010)

JHE said:


> Turkeys for Christmas, Women for Peter Sutcliffe, Jews for Nazism, Trots for Uncle Joe, Protestants for the Inquisition and now we've also got Anarchists for Islam!



Ah, they have an anarchist symbol on their banner. I guess if I put on a white dress and comfy shoes it would make me a nurse.


----------



## Zonk (Jul 4, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Anybody know why the Antifa newswire is down?



It's hosted by antifa.net who these days are *always* down...


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 4, 2010)

Zonk said:


> It's hosted by antifa.net who these days are *always* down...



It seems to have completely vanished now actually...


----------



## audiotech (Jul 4, 2010)

JHE said:


> Turkeys for Christmas, Women for Peter Sutcliffe, Jews for Nazism, Trots for Uncle Joe, Protestants for the Inquisition and now we've also got Anarchists for Islam!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



JHE for whatever?

Rastafari, lord of lords, king of kings, black star liner.


----------



## albionism (Jul 5, 2010)

audiotech said:


>



anyone know where this pic was taken....Whitechapel ?


----------



## JHE (Jul 5, 2010)

albionism said:


> anyone know where this pic was taken....Whitechapel ?



Whitechapel... where anarchists were beaten up by "30 angry young Asian men"

http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news7277.php


----------



## audiotech (Jul 5, 2010)

JHE said:


> Whitechapel... where anarchists were beaten up by "30 angry young Asian men"
> 
> http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news7277.php



A very biased and selective version from JHE which runs counter to this report:.



> One note of concern was that rising tension had seen misdirected anger focused on an unfortunate van driver and a lone “skinhead” who was rescued from an angry crowd by marshalls from the Mosque. It is unclear what exactly the spark for these incidents was but the EDL might like to reflect on such events before deciding on future provocations in the area. Despite these isolated events WAG encountered no hostility, chatting freely with youth from both Tower Hamlets and Newham. It is important to note that despite EDL claims on internet forums Whitechapel was NOT a “no-go area” for white people on Sunday.
> 
> http://whitechapelanarchistgroup.wordpress.com/


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 5, 2010)

A gang of young lads terrorise their neighbourhood shocker.


----------



## JHE (Jul 5, 2010)

audiotech said:


> A very biased and selective version from JHE...



... from Schnews, you mean.

Still, I'm very willing to believe that a van driver and a 'skinhead' were also attacked - as well as "four white local punk anarchists".

Unfortunately, four white local punk anarchists (who are actively against the EDL) were caught up in the atmosphere of paranoia and were attacked by 30 angry young Asian men.​


----------



## audiotech (Jul 5, 2010)

JHE said:


> ... from Schnews, you mean.
> 
> Still, I'm very willing to believe that a van driver and a 'skinhead' were also attacked - as well as "four white local punk anarchists".
> 
> Unfortunately, four white local punk anarchists (who are actively against the EDL) were caught up in the atmosphere of paranoia and were attacked by 30 angry young Asian men.​



Apparently "misdirected anger" towards the van driver and skinhead and "30 angry young Asian men" attacked four local punk anarchists, but reportedly no hostility towards WAG? A confusing set of reports all round.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2010)

audiotech said:


> A very biased and selective version from JHE which runs counter to this report:.



why hasn't the Whitechapel anarchists got any black or Asian members


----------



## revlon (Jul 5, 2010)

they have


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2010)

revlon said:


> they have



Not what the article inferred.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 6, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Not what the article inferred.



Some of them came into the pub close to freedom a couple of weeks ago after id bought a book there and there was indeed a black and Asian guy amongst them as I chatted to them for a bit.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 6, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> why hasn't the Whitechapel anarchists got any black or Asian members



To be fair, they definately have. They are all working clarse and on the streets as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2010)

Let's have it on the cobbles.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> why hasn't the Whitechapel anarchists got any black or Asian members



fuck off you ignorant twat

wag has both black and asian members. and even women too


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 6, 2010)

A black woman too iirc.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 6, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Some of them came into the pub close to freedom a couple of weeks ago after id bought a book there and there was indeed a *black and Asian guy* amongst them as I chatted to them for a bit.



half black half asian?


----------



## past caring (Jul 6, 2010)

Half biscuit?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 6, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> half black half asian?



No. one of each variety.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 13, 2010)

The plot thickens.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/762/'Tommy-Robinson'-goes-into-hiding


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> fuck off you ignorant twat
> 
> wag has both black and asian members. and even women too



of course it does


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2010)

audiotech said:


> The plot thickens.
> 
> http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/762/'Tommy-Robinson'-goes-into-hiding



Isn't this old news?


----------



## alfajobrob (Jul 14, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> fuck off you ignorant twat
> 
> wag has both black and asian members. and even women too




Don't suppose Dulwich has it's own Anarchist group does it 

I could be the DAG founder/only member.....blacks, asians & EVEN women  welcome as long as your proper Anarchists & long term Dulwich residents and council tax payers!

First meeting in the EDT on Thurs evening.......I tried to book Weds but we were gazumped by the Mother and Child Ashraam yoga & knitting group.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 14, 2010)

Actually joking aside there is a really sound group of anarchists and TUists around Dulwich, I don't think they are massively active around the community yet (they mostly do workplace stuff atm) but I know it is an aim.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 14, 2010)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Actually joking aside there is a really sound group of anarchists and TUists around Dulwich, I don't think they are massively active around the community yet (they mostly do workplace stuff atm) but I know it is an aim.



any timescales for when they might make the transition?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 14, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> any timescales for when they might make the transition?



I assume it will be when things calm down in some of their workplaces.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 14, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't this old news?



If true, it's news to me that he's gone into hiding.  He'll be trembling from the Ray, Gregor, Adair and state pressure I suspect?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jul 14, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> of course it does



Well it did 4 or 5 weeks ago.


----------



## revlon (Jul 15, 2010)

never seen so many women at a political meeting. Not since the squads launched their 'spirit of 74' naked calendar (aint half hot mum theme) at marxism resistance conference, battersea working mens college


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2010)

Another "peaceful" demo by the happy hour brigade, leads to 20 arrests in Dudley, where reportedly drainpipes and house bricks were tossed around.

http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2010/07/20-arrested-at-another-peaceful-edl.html


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Another "peaceful" demo by the happy hour brigade, leads to 20 arrests in Dudley, where reportedly drainpipes and house bricks were tossed around.
> 
> http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/2010/07/20-arrested-at-another-peaceful-edl.html


other sources (ie the dudley local rag) report 21. i wonder why the uaf are only going for 20?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> other sources (ie the dudley local rag) report 21. i wonder why the uaf are only going for 20?



I know you like to take the piss Pickman's, as do most of us at times, but just to point out it's a Lancaster Unity report and they are not part of the UAF as you know it. Lancaster Unity follow _Searchlight_ mainly.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2010)

board wobble


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2010)

alright, why lancaster unity seem to have missed someone out then.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 19, 2010)

The interesting thing here is  not so much the EDL being nasty people etc and reports telling us just how beastly they are  but the continuing dilemma for UAF and Searchies on how to 'fight' them.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 20, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> The interesting thing here is  not so much the EDL being nasty people etc and reports telling us just how beastly they are  but the continuing dilemma for UAF and Searchies on how to 'fight' them.



I expect an implosion from within over who controls the present lucrative merchandise they sell.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2010)

Isn't it worrying that it is precisely the success of the EDL rather than the opposition that dominates the potential demise of the EDL?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jul 20, 2010)

Dudley 1: around 7 arrested. Bricks were thrown at police. Fences were pushed down. 'Demonstrators' did run rampage after that. EDL who'd didn't come from Dudley blamed locals and 'non-EDL' for the violence and racism. 

Dudley 2: around 21 arrested. Bricks, drainpipes and fences were thrown at police. Fences were pushed down. Demonstrators were knocked over and seriously injured after EDL protestors broke the window of the car which reacted by putting foot down to get away from the violence. EDL outsiders once again blame locals and 'non-EDL' for violence & racism.

Both Dudley demos were against the building of a mosque, under the SIOE slogan and viewed as helping to put a stop to what SIOE and other Counter Jihadis call 'Islamification'. 

Both Dudley demos had nothing to do with being against extremist Islamism (a la Despatches 'Undercover Mosque') but were against all Mosques in England, thus against English Muslims. 

Anglo-Jews are against SIOE and EDL's extremist Islamophobia. So what has EDL & it's ICLA allies done? 

EDL/ICLA brought in a Brazilian who identified herself as as Jewish (named Roberta) then proceded to call Islam a cult and generally focus on the most extreme examples in the world to turn English men and women (mainly men) against their fellow Englishmen and women (but only if they're Muslim). The Counter Jihad 'Infidel Blogger Alliance' then spread the news of this lone wingnut Brazilian who spoke, as a Jew, to EDL.

Basically we believe that these Counter-Jihadis are hoping to destroy Jewish-Muslim alliances in Britain, which are by similarity in nature stronger than Christian-Jewish alliances, not only because of the same threat from the ultra-right nationalists, but because of some close similarities of practices (such as Halal//Kosher dietary requirements). 

Jewish security group CST (who gather data on antisemitic incidences and advise on security for temples) have advised and continue to advise the Muslim community on security for their Mosques whilst EDL and SIOE and other atlanticist-euroskeptik Islamophobes have resorted to insults and ad hominems to denegrade and insult the British Jewish community as a whole for their support of Britain's Muslim community. 

EDL supporters attacked a Hindu Temple during their last visit, actions that appear to be saying that nothing is sacred for the EDL, else why would they vandalise religious communities' sacred buildings?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't it worrying that it is precisely the success of the EDL rather than the opposition that dominates the potential demise of the EDL?



Absolutely.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2010)

EDL court protest in Luton, then escorted to pub by police who then seem to become irregular "pub bouncers"? 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10731835


----------



## audiotech (Jul 29, 2010)

Following his exposure as a former member of the BNP:



> Yaxley-Lennon, [aka 'Tommy Robinson'], has handed over the leadership of the ‘peaceful’ EDL to Kevin Carroll, who has just been convicted of violent disorder in Luton. Even Tommy has realised how untenable the ‘we ain’t BNP’ claims have become and has buried his membership card in the garden.



Source.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 7, 2010)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/07/english-defence-league-bradford-march

Chants of "Kevin Jenkins is a Pedo" from the EDL? I doubt it. 

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...t-girl-14/article-2382755-detail/article.html


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 10, 2010)

audiotech said:


> I expect an implosion from within over who controls the present lucrative merchandise they sell.


ERm, what 'success'? All they do is run around doing shouty things, which is exactly what you criticise the anarchists and the left for doing!


----------



## audiotech (Aug 12, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> ERm, what 'success'? All they do is run around doing shouty things, which is exactly what you criticise the anarchists and the left for doing!



'success and doing 'shouty things, which is exactly what you criticise the anarchists and the left for doing'?

I've never said anything of the kind, so what are you blathering about?


----------



## revlon (Aug 12, 2010)

went down to this

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/330940-Fighting-Fascism-in-London

glad to see, apart from the whitechapel anarchists mobbed up (with ladies present and everything) the uaf types providing a bit of physicality - just in case edl made an appearence.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 16, 2010)

The EDL get a kick up the ARRSE.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 17, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't it worrying that it is precisely the success of the EDL rather than the opposition that dominates the potential demise of the EDL?


 
ERm, what 'success'? All they do is run around doing shouty things, which is exactly what you criticise the anarchists and the left for doing!


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 23, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> ERm, what 'success'? All they do is run around doing shouty things, which is exactly what you criticise the anarchists and the left for doing!


 
Success as in they have proved that 'antifascism' ie the opposition hasn't the capacity to smash them/no platform them?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 23, 2010)

audiotech said:


> The EDL get a kick up the ARRSE.




Reading some thread slowly delivered by youtube? How tedious.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 24, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Reading some thread slowly delivered by youtube? How tedious.


 
I enjoyed it


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 24, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Success as in they have proved that 'antifascism' ie the opposition hasn't the capacity to smash them/no platform them?


 
That was never their aim, & i am not sure whether it matters too much either. We all knew the 'opposition' was weak anyway... I think it will have given a lot of them confidence - the 'first far right street movement' etc since the 1970's but luckily they have not got a collective clue, & some individuals even less. They are symptomatic of a general decline in progressive working class education & values - class consciousness so to speak, but we knew that was happening anyway. Rather we have to promote alternatives.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2010)

go on then


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 24, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> go on then


 
A definate contender for 'waste of time post of the year'.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Aug 25, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A definate contender for 'waste of time post of the year'.


 
Self awareness lol


----------



## audiotech (Aug 25, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Reading some thread slowly delivered by youtube? How tedious.



More tedium from a bunch of muppets:


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 25, 2010)

Couldn't we just offer Lancaster Unity a sticky here? It would save Auditech what must be a mind numbing task of cutting and pasting their material.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> A definate contender for 'waste of time post of the year'.


 
i thought you might be promoting an alternative and now i see how wrong i was to think you had anything to offer


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Couldn't we just offer Lancaster Unity a sticky here? It would save Auditech what must be a mind numbing task of cutting and pasting their material.


 






an audi tech recently


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 25, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Self awareness lol


 
Fully, obviously u hav no idea.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 25, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought you might be promoting an alternative and now i see how wrong i was to think you had anything to offer



 FUll of political lies again Pickman - will you ever grow up? YOu do nothing!!
At least we're doing it in the North East with a range of alternatives;
http://tynewearleftunity.wordpress.com/
http://sunderlandwelfareaction.wordpress.com/
http://iww.org.uk/tyneandwear
http://mayday-magazine.com/
http://workingclassbookfair.vpweb.com/


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> FUll of political lies again Pickman - will you ever grow up? YOu do nothing!!
> At least we're doing it in the North East with a range of alternatives;
> http://tynewearleftunity.wordpress.com/
> http://sunderlandwelfareaction.wordpress.com/
> ...


 
i look forward to reading your next incisive article in capital & class, from whose pages you have too long been absent.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Aug 25, 2010)

The Black Hand said:


> Fully, obviously u hav no idea.


 
Obviously


----------



## audiotech (Aug 26, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> Couldn't we just offer Lancaster Unity a sticky here? It would save Auditech what must be a mind numbing task of cutting and pasting their material.



blah,blah,blah.


----------



## The Black Hand (Aug 26, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> Obviously


Patently.


----------



## treelover (Aug 26, 2010)

why is the West Yorkshire media saying they expect upto 10'000 EDL supporters,  surely that is just scaremongering?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 26, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> an audi tech recently



Ha Ha.

Meanwhile, to piss off The39thStep further:


----------



## The Black Hand (Sep 23, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> i look forward to reading your next incisive article in capital & class, from whose pages you have too long been absent.


 
I am doing other things Pickman, you had better learn a different tune too, you're so stale. Obsessed (like some of the other ultra leftists around here) and Camus called it correctly about you and similar types; "*The need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind*"


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 23, 2010)

audiotech said:


> Ha Ha.
> 
> Meanwhile, to piss off The39thStep further:



why would that piss me off?


----------



## audiotech (Sep 23, 2010)

The39thStep said:


> why would that piss me off?


 
I jape, as the image is from Lancaster Unity.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 9, 2010)

The EDL scum are holding a static demonstration just down the road from me today. Wonder if it'll kick off - Leicester has the biggest ethnic minority population in the whole of the UK, could get nasty. Would have gone down to protest but am in bed with the flu.


----------

