# The 2019 General Election



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Buckle up, arms in...here we go...


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## hash tag (Oct 24, 2019)

Not another bloody election thread


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

hash tag said:


> Not another bloody election thread


U R Brenda AICMFP


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## hash tag (Oct 24, 2019)

If helps if you call me Brenda, feel free, you were beaten to it 



cupid_stunt said:


> Another election thread...


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

If Johnson receives the extension confirmation before the vote for a GE I can't see how Labour can turn it down this time.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 24, 2019)

Oh, what fun, I can't wait.


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## Teaboy (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If Johnson receives the extension confirmation before the vote for a GE I can't see how Labour can turn it down this time.



It'll be the same reasoning as last time.  Say the EU grant an extension until 31st Jan.  Opposition parties agree to an election on 12th December or whenever.  Johnson then changes the date of the election till February sometime which he can do and its a no deal crash out on the 31st.  Once the house agrees with calling an election the PM can muck around with the date if they like.

The opposition parties will quite rightly point out that the PM's pants are permanently ablaze and something will need to be written in law before they vote for an election.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 24, 2019)

I’ve made plans for this evening already!


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> It'll be the same reasoning as last time.  Say the EU grant an extension until 31st Jan.  Opposition parties agree to an election on 12th December or whenever.  Johnson then changes the date of the election till February sometime which he can do and its a no deal crash out on the 31st.
> 
> The opposition parties will quite rightly point out that the PM's pants are permanently ablaze and something will need to be written in law before they vote for an election.


Johnson could easily see that off at the pass by putting the date in a one-liner bill...or the oppo could amend to do so.
Labour's excuses will start to look a little thin tbh.


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve made plans for this evening already!


Me too, but the offy will be open till late


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## hash tag (Oct 24, 2019)

WTF. You even posted on the other threads a few times 


brogdale said:


> U R Brenda AICMFP


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

hash tag said:


> WTF. You even posted on the other threads a few times


Consistent.


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## Teaboy (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Johnson could easily see that off at the pass by putting the date in a one-liner bill...or the oppo could amend to do so.
> Labour's excuses will start to look a little thin tbh.



I don't think you can amend an act that's already passed, I think something new is required.  If it was that easy Johnson would have already done it.  He could bring a new bill with the 'Not withstanding the FTPA' line in it but that one could and likely would be hijacked with shed loads of amendments which is the probable reason he's not done so thus far.

If he really wanted this election he should just go balls out and call a no confidence motion in himself.  Except he's shit scared about being turfed out of No 10 if they opposition parties suddenly get their act together.  The coward.


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## hash tag (Oct 24, 2019)

Granted.


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

If passed on Monday..by my calculation (iffy?)...the earliest Election day would Thursday 5th December. (there has to be a recess of at least 25 sitting days)


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## hash tag (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Consistent.



Granted.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Oh, what fun, I can't wait.



Another 5 years of Tory rule with a clown at the helm. Fuck me, I really can’t cope with that thought.


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## treelover (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If passed on Monday..by my calculation (iffy?)...the earliest Election day would Thursday 5th December. (there has to be a recess of at least 25 sitting days)




awful date for an election


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## danny la rouge (Oct 24, 2019)

“Son, come out of the cupboard. I promise I won’t hit you”.


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

treelover said:


> awful date for an election


You think it should be 3 weeks later?


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

Just watching this crap on sky news - why is a December election bad for the LP? Postal votes or some such?


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Another 5 years of Tory rule with a clown at the helm. Fuck me, I really can’t cope with that thought.


Stop Mr.Bishie ! Walk back from the ledge...


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## Teaboy (Oct 24, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Just watching this crap on sky news - why is a December election bad for the LP? Postal votes or some such?



Wasn't there some old bollocks about Labour voters not turning up when it rains?  Probably something like that but with it being cold and wet. Sounds like crap.


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Wasn't there some old bollocks about Labour voters not turning up when it rains?  Probably something like that but with it being cold and wet. Sounds like crap.


Whippet paws susceptible to wet-rot...along with the clogs


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Whippet paws susceptible to wet-rot...along with the clogs



lol


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## Dogsauce (Oct 24, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Wasn't there some old bollocks about Labour voters not turning up when it rains?  Probably something like that but with it being cold and wet. Sounds like crap.



Old school Labour voters are on the Brexit Party bandwagon now, they’ll be sat inside avoiding the drizzle while the great outdoors loving urban Labour/Lib scum voters will be out braving it in their goretex finery.


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## treelover (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> You think it should be 3 weeks later?




Maybe in the spring


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Oborne has really got to them...


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## Dogsauce (Oct 24, 2019)

Anyway, “give me a great political victory and then an election to capitalise on it please” doesn’t sound like a very attractive offer to the opposition, though they’ll have to find a more reasonable sounding excuse than ‘fuck off, you chancer” to avoid it.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

treelover said:


> Maybe in the spring



when the tulips bloom


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## Teaboy (Oct 24, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Old school Labour voters are on the Brexit Party bandwagon now, they’ll be sat inside avoiding the drizzle while the great outdoors loving urban Labour/Lib scum voters will be out braving it in their goretex finery.



Taking an uber to the polling station.


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

treelover said:


> Maybe in the spring


Easter, you monster...he died for your sins.


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## andysays (Oct 24, 2019)

treelover said:


> Maybe in the spring


The current request awaiting approval from EU leaders is for an extension of three months, ie until 31 January 2020.

If it's going to happen, it has to happen asap


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Gotta say that has the potential to go down in political quote history along the likes of _Crisis? What crisis?
_
Could come back to bite the blustercunt's arse.
_
_


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2019)

Now for the GE/2nd ref split in Labour to open up more deeply. 

Tedious. Inevitable. Fill space whilst we wait for the deal with CU alignment to be finally barfed up by these wankers at some point in 2020


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## agricola (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Oborne has really got to them...
> 
> View attachment 188008



If I didn't already like Oborne for the time I saw him give a talk to a pubful of people after arriving with a tray full of pints so he wouldn't go thirsty during his talk, I would like him for this.


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## chilango (Oct 24, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Old school Labour voters are on the Brexit Party bandwagon now, they’ll be sat inside avoiding the drizzle while the great outdoors loving urban Labour/Lib scum voters will be out braving it in their goretex TresTex finery.



Ffy


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## redsquirrel (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Stop Mr.Bishie ! Walk back from the ledge...


Come on you know better than to take voting intentions based on hypotheticals with any less than an Everest of salt.

Don't get me wrong I don't think a Tory majority is nailed on but that poll is pretty much worthless


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Come on you know better than to take voting intentions based on hypotheticals with any less than an Everest of salt.
> 
> Don't get be wrong I don't think a Tory majority is nailed on but that poll is pretty much worthless


Yeah, it wasn't my most earnest post of the day tbf


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Aww...just when you think that Christmas is coming...fucking grinches


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## kenny g (Oct 24, 2019)

The fixed term parliament act is one of the many biggest piles of shite the Lib Dems bestowed on the UK.


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## 19sixtysix (Oct 24, 2019)

The only thing Johnson can do is resign as PM. Everything else he has to ask parliament. I don't think he's ever been told no before.


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## Proper Tidy (Oct 24, 2019)

I know there are loads of variables but still, the more a GE is delayed the bigger the tory majority I expect. It just makes it such an easy story to sell  when campaigning. We're the democrats. We wanted to honour the majority vote. We wanted to put it to the polls. They opposed us every step. They don't trust you.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I know there are loads of variables but still, the more a GE is delayed the bigger the tory majority I expect. It just makes it such an easy story to sell  when campaigning. We're the democrats. We wanted to honour the majority vote. We wanted to put it to the polls. They opposed us every step. They don't trust you.


I think it's the other way, the more Johnson swears it's sunny when it's pissing down the more votes will ebb away from the tories


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## Proper Tidy (Oct 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think it's the other way, the more Johnson swears it's sunny when it's pissing down the more votes will ebb away from the tories


God I hope so


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## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2019)

19sixtysix said:


> The only thing Johnson can do is resign as PM. Everything else he has to ask parliament. I don't think he's ever been told no before.


He could top himself without asking parliament and history would look kindly on him for so doing


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## weltweit (Oct 24, 2019)

Do we really need yet more politics?


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 24, 2019)

ok, that's it, turning off the internet for everything apart from games and cat pictures now, bye


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## 19sixtysix (Oct 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> He could top himself without asking parliament and history would look kindly on him for so doing



I'm sure plenty of folks would help him to a ditch.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2019)

19sixtysix said:


> I'm sure plenty of folks would help him to a ditch.


His final act could be to dig his own ditch


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2019)

Someone was trying to put a letter through my door last night, which took absolutely ages and I nearly opened the door to check they were ok but also found the whole drawn out, painful process oddly fascinating.

It was a letter from Boris Johnson asking me to help him continue with the amazing things he is doing for the NHS.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2019)

8ball said:


> Someone was trying to put a letter through my door last night, which took absolutely ages and I nearly opened the door to check they were ok but also found the whole drawn out, painful process oddly fascinating.
> 
> It was a letter from Boris Johnson asking me to help him continue with the amazing things he is doing for the NHS.


He is doing to the NHS what his erstwhile friend David Cameron famously did to a pig's head


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, it wasn't my most earnest post of the day tbf


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Do we really need yet more politics?



You calling for a revolution? Count me in Welty!!


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## Raheem (Oct 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> His final act could be to dig his own ditch


Not if you want a decent ditch.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Not if you want a decent ditch.



A half arsed attempt at a ditch to cover his rancid corpse will suffice.


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## Marty1 (Oct 24, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I know there are loads of variables but still, the more a GE is delayed the bigger the tory majority I expect. It just makes it such an easy story to sell  when campaigning. We're the democrats. We wanted to honour the majority vote. We wanted to put it to the polls. They opposed us every step. They don't trust you.



They’d have a good point.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Not if you want a decent ditch.


A shallow ditch will do, pariah dogs will dig him up and dispose of the corpse


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## Proper Tidy (Oct 24, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> They’d have a good point.


Well you have to remember they are tories and therefore are a) the establishment and b) don't actually give a fuck about anybody who isn't, but yeah I agree it's a strong campaign line to take


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## Jennastan (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Whippet paws susceptible to wet-rot...along with the clogs


i had a whippet once. Hated going out in the rain!


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## Plumdaff (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If passed on Monday..by my calculation (iffy?)...the earliest Election day would Thursday 5th December. (there has to be a recess of at least 25 sitting days)



That's my work Christmas do. So I was already going to be drunk and maudlin.


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## Marty1 (Oct 24, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well you have to remember they are tories and therefore are a) the establishment and b) don't actually give a fuck about anybody who isn't, but yeah I agree it's a strong campaign line to take



Farage has been saying from day one that this would go to a GE under the banner of ‘The People Vs Parliament.


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Gary Gibbon on C4News just revealed that he'd been told by 'a source' that if Johnson fails to secure GE19 on Monday then the vermin will go on a (legislative) 'strike'!  They'll bring nothing forward at all, including their shite deal/WAB.

 Tories to go on strike 

It gets better.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Gary Gibbon on C4News just revealed that he'd been told by 'a source' that if Johnson fails to secure GE19 on Monday then the vermin will go on a (legislative) 'strike'!  They'll bring nothing forward at all, including their shite deal/WAB.
> 
> Tories to go on strike
> 
> It gets better.



He can’t bring legislation forward with a majority of -43. 

I have to say I’m really starting to enjoy this. The whole sleaze ridden pus is becoming more exposed to the public gaze than it’s ever been.


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He can’t bring legislation forward with a majority of -43.
> 
> I have to say I’m really starting to enjoy this. The whole sleaze ridden pus is becoming more exposed to the public gaze than it’s ever been.


The smell of decay strengthening by the day


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The smell of decay strengthening by the day



I’ve just seen the leader of the SNP in Westminster claim their can’t be a GE because it’ll be ‘dark and cold’ in Scotland in December 

People can be homeless, struggle to afford to put the heating on and work in cold outside spaces but not vote.

Put the lot against a wall


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve just seen the leader of the SNP in Westminster claim their can’t be a GE because it’ll be ‘dark and cold’ in Scotland in December
> 
> People can be homeless, struggle to afford to put the heating on and work in cold outside spaces but not vote.
> 
> Put the lot against a wall


This is the Gary Gibbon 'strike' piece...


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

Tories to strike? Will they now change policy to increase the % for strike action?

fuck me again


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Tories to strike? Will they now change policy to increase the % for strike action?
> 
> fuck me again


How strikers are dealt with in UK...


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

Has there ever been in the history of UK politics, a strike by a government?


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## Supine (Oct 24, 2019)

Cummings is next level for trying to play the system. Luckily he seems to be rather shit at actually playing it. A strike by the tories LOL. Fucking chancers.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2019)

Tory gov strike?! Oh my fuckin sides


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## brogdale (Oct 24, 2019)

When Priti Patel started singing the 'earwig O' song...


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## Supine (Oct 24, 2019)

There is absolutely no reason to pause the bill. Apart from the fact johnscunt doesn’t want the scrutiny or any proposed amendments. The election at this point is a deflection from the problems he faces in getting anything through Parliament. 

Do labour still want to renegotiate their own version of brexit? Give me strength!!!


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## Yossarian (Oct 24, 2019)

"In America, garbagemen go on strike. In Boris Britain, garbage men go on strike."


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## Raheem (Oct 24, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is the Gary Gibbon 'strike' piece...



If they did that, wouldn't the other parties plus Tory rebels just take over the HoC and pass a soft Brexit/referendum bill or whatever?


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## Humberto (Oct 25, 2019)

Got to be worth a go.


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## Humberto (Oct 25, 2019)

May as well go down fighting


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## Humberto (Oct 25, 2019)

As in I literally have never really met a Tory. The odd one. Don't know. My personal experience I've literally never met anyone who professes Tory afilliation. And yet they are apparently everywhere.


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## Mation (Oct 25, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> the PM's pants are permanently ablaze


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## hash tag (Oct 25, 2019)




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## tim (Oct 25, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Another 5 years of Tory rule with a clown at the helm. Fuck me, I really can’t cope with that thought.


Don't worry the UVF will be doing their damnedest to ensure that keeps his dying in a ditch pledge.


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## brogdale (Oct 25, 2019)

Welcome to the neoliberal, consolidator state in action; no room at the (public) "Inn" for even the performative charade of representative democracy.


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## brogdale (Oct 25, 2019)

_Fewer_, I know Pickman's model


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2019)

brogdale said:


> _Fewer_, I know Pickman's model


the less / fewer debate is one i don't pursue.

you should be addressing your post to those with skin in the game like Taper, B.I.G, dcdulwich and danny la rouge


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## brogdale (Oct 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the less / fewer debate is one i don't pursue.
> 
> you should be addressing your post to those with skin in the game like Taper, B.I.G, dcdulwich and danny la rouge


You're right, of course. I should strive to differentiate the particular pedantic proclivities of the pedants present here.
My bad.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2019)

brogdale said:


> You're right, of course. I should strive to differentiate the particular pedantic proclivities of the pedants present here.
> My bad.


my pedant days are in the past and any pedantic enquiries should be addressed to those posters who have adopted the mantle of the ultrapedant


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## brogdale (Oct 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> my pedant days are in the past and any pedantic enquiries should be addressed to those posters who have adopted the mantle of the ultrapedant


Just reminded me; been a while since I've heard anyone called a grammar nazi...are they still amongst us?


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## andysays (Oct 25, 2019)

I'll admit, my first thought on reading it was that it should be "fewer and fewer", not that there should be more public buildings available for use.

Is this a demonstration of the effects of aging, or have I just spent too much time exposed to the pedants of Urban?


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## Yossarian (Oct 25, 2019)

There hasn't been an election this close to Christmas since 1918, I'm surprised the Tories want to have one at a time of year when people are talking about peace on Earth and goodwill to all men - wouldn't they do better in January when everybody's miserable and grumpy?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> There hasn't been an election this close to Christmas since 1918, I'm surprised the Tories want to have one at a time of year when people are talking about peace on Earth and goodwill to all men - wouldn't they do better in January when everybody's miserable and grumpy?


they want to destroy what remains of the yule spirit so it's no surprise they're angling for an election at that time


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 25, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> There hasn't been an election this close to Christmas since 1918, I'm surprised the Tories want to have one at a time of year when people are talking about peace on Earth and goodwill to all men - wouldn't they do better in January when everybody's miserable and grumpy?



They don't - they want to expose that the opposition parties don't want one and are 'blocking Brexit'.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'll admit, my first thought on reading it was that it should be "fewer and fewer", not that there should be more public buildings available for use.
> 
> Is this a demonstration of the effects of aging, or have I just spent too much time exposed to the pedants of Urban?


yes


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## not-bono-ever (Oct 25, 2019)

I Remember that Blair discussed with the BoE joining the Euro during jubilee year as everyone would be in a good mood and summer


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## Yossarian (Oct 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they want to destroy what remains of the yule spirit so it's no surprise they're angling for an election at that time



At some point, Johnson's probably going to claim he was visited by the terrifying Ghost of Brexit Past, until someone tells him that was just Jacob Rees-Mogg.


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## andysays (Oct 25, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> I Remember that Blair discussed with the BoE joining the Euro during jubilee year as everyone would be in a good mood and summer


I've just heard on the radio that pub opening hours will be extended to celebrate the 75th anniversary of VE day. If we can just hold on till next May for the GE...


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## The39thStep (Oct 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> I've just heard on the radio that pub opening hours will be extended to celebrate the 75th anniversary of VE day. If we can just hold on till next May for the GE...


NEW SEALED - MAX BYGRAVES SING-A-LONG-A WAR YEARS V.1 Pop Wartime Music CD Album 5050457022426 | eBay


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## andysays (Oct 25, 2019)

Interesting article here

Winter election: What difference does it make?

The first election I can remember was February 1974, notable mostly for the fact that I got a day off school


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## PR1Berske (Oct 26, 2019)

Sunset on the 12 December is 1553, six hours before polling stations close at 2200. That could be very important in respect to turnout, particularly vulnerable groups and the elderly.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 27, 2019)

Typical LibDems, having pushed for the Fixed Term Parliaments Act during the coalition years, they are now plotting with the SNP to circumvent it.



> The Lib Dems and the SNP intend to introduce a short amendment to the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, which would specify the polling day for the next election as 9 December.
> 
> Mr Johnson's plan for an election would require the agreement of two-thirds of MPs, under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act rules for calling an early general election.
> 
> The Lib Dem and SNP amendment to the act would only need a simple majority, if they can get the Parliamentary time for it to be debated.



Lib Dems and SNP push for earlier election


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## Supine (Oct 27, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Typical LibDems, having pushed for the Fixed Term Parliaments Act during the coalition years, they are now plotting with the SNP to circumvent it.
> 
> 
> 
> Lib Dems and SNP push for earlier election



I'm trying not to be pedantic but they aren't circumventing it. It's being changed to allow an election. The interesting bit is - will anyone add voting rights for 16-17 yr olds...


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## brogdale (Oct 27, 2019)

Supine said:


> I'm trying not to be pedantic but they aren't circumventing it. It's being changed to allow an election. The interesting bit is - will anyone add voting rights for 16-17 yr olds...


As in _to find a way around_?
Well, that's exactly what they're doing wrt to the provisions of the FTPA; can't see what you're pulling up cupid_stunt for?

From the BBC:


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2019)

Supine said:


> The interesting bit is - will anyone add voting rights for 16-17 yr olds...



Unlikely, because there wouldn't be enough time to register them.


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## andysays (Oct 28, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Unlikely, because there wouldn't be enough time to register them.



I don't think we should rule out anything at this stage simply because it's completely impractical and couldn't be achieved in the time scale necessary


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## kebabking (Oct 28, 2019)

andysays said:


> I don't think we should rule out anything at this stage simply because it's completely impractical and couldn't be achieved in the time scale necessary



Indeed. One thing that the last 3 years should have taught everyone is that the Emperor walks the Land, and that his Powers are Mighty...


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## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Indeed. One thing that the last 3 years should have taught everyone is that the Emperor walks the Land, and that his Powers are Mighty...


one thing that the last 3 years should have taught everyone is that mps are particularly stupid and are the last people who should be given any influence over the government of the country


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2019)

BREAKING NEWS - if the government loses the vote under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act this evening, they will bring forward their own bill, similiar to that proposed by the LibDems & SNP, in order to circumvent it.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> BREAKING NEWS - if the government loses the vote under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act this evening, they will bring forward their own bill, similiar to that proposed by the LibDems & SNP, in order to circumvent it.


wouldn't the speaker, the redoutable bercow, simply rule it out of order?


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## danny la rouge (Oct 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> wouldn't the speaker, the redoutable bercow, simply rule it out of order?


We are of course now in the Delphic Expanse, where the normal laws of physics don’t apply. And it’s not clear whether warp drive is working. So who knows?


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> wouldn't the speaker, the redoutable bercow, simply rule it out of order?



I see no reason why he should, it would be a new separate bill & totally different vote.

Bercow goes on Thursday anyway.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I see no reason why he should, it would be a new separate bill & totally different vote.
> 
> Bercow goes on Thursday anyway.


i refer the honourable gentleman to the bit about 'this evening' in post 107


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 28, 2019)

Is there a more useless piece of legislation than the FTPA? It was the libdems' idea, too, and they now support measures to subvert it?


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i refer the honourable gentleman to the bit about 'this evening' in post 107



Yeah, if they lose the vote this evening, they will bring forward their own bill, no notice has been given as to when they would do that, yet.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yeah, if they lose the vote this evening, they will bring forward their own bill, no notice has been given as to when they would do that, yet.


Not sure how this stops the speaker ruling it out of order


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure how this stops the speaker ruling it out of order



Well, firstly, it would be a totally different vote, on a new bill, so I can't see how he can rule it out of order.

If, in the unlikely event he did, they could bring it back after he's gone.


----------



## elbows (Oct 28, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is there a more useless piece of legislation than the FTPA? It was the libdems' idea, too, and they now support measures to subvert it?



When it was brought in, I saw it as simply being there so that the press did not speculate about the coalition collapsing from the moment it was formed. That and providing a clear timetable to stop either coalition partner from electioneering at each others expense prematurely.

It served its purpose with the above. I am glad it caused unintended problems years later.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 28, 2019)

elbows said:


> When it was brought in, I saw it as simply being there so that the press did not speculate about the coalition collapsing from the moment it was formed. That and providing a clear timetable to stop either coalition partner from electioneering at each others expense prematurely.
> 
> It served its purpose with the above. I am glad it caused unintended problems years later.


I seem to remember at the time that there was quite a deal of comment about how the FTPA was really introduced to assuage LD fears that the tories might destabilise the coalition when it suited them to. It was introduced as an 'insurance policy' for the junior partner. And, tbf, the LDs (along with Labour) had actually proposed a FTPA in their 2010 manifesto(s).


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 28, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> They don't - they want to expose that the opposition parties don't want one and are 'blocking Brexit'.


Surely now is the time for Corbyns sitting on the fence tactic to bear fruit?.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 28, 2019)

Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson seems annoyed with the result.

Was that not a Tory/Cameron change to voting policy?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

The joy of seeing Anna Soubry on Sky News getting all upset about a December election, knowing she will be out of a job.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The joy of seeing Anna Soubry on Sky News getting all upset about a December election, knowing she will be out of a job.




Her present job; I fear she'll become a semi-permanent media presence after being ditched by the electorate.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Her present job; I fear she'll become a semi-permanent media presence after being ditched by the electorate.



Yes. My joy at her imminent job loss is somewhat tempered by the thought of her inevitable move to slurry punditry.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> her inevitable move to slurry punditry.


she will, i understand, be the new anchor for countryfile


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Her present job; I fear she'll become a semi-permanent media presence after being ditched by the electorate.



Sadly I expect the same for Chuka Umunna.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> she will, i understand, be the new anchor for countryfile



Did you mean to type 'anchor'?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sadly I expect the same for Chuka Umunna.



You don't think he can win in London?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

One thing for sure, there'll will be plenty of 'Portillo' moments on the results night.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Did you mean to type 'anchor'?


the w is traditionally silent at the bbc


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You don't think he can win in London?



I'll be very surprised, it would be a hell of a swing, the Tories were on 46.6% & LibDems on 11.1% in the 2017 GE, in the Cities of London and Westminster constituency.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sadly I expect the same for Chuka Umunna.


chucked umunna


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2019)

A friend of mine who works within Labour party HQ has seen and leaked a central campaign posters  they plan to run with if the election is called today.  I think it's quite effective. Please don't post it on further on social media.



Spoiler


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I'll be very surprised, it would be a hell of a swing, the Tories were on 46.6% & LibDems on 11.1% in the 2017 GE, in the Cities of London and Westminster constituency.



Remoan South Central though.... 

That said that is a big task even for a neo liberal as slick as Chukka.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Remoan South Central though....
> 
> That said that is a big task even for a neo liberal as slick as Chukka.



It's been a safe Tory seat since its creation at the 1950 general election, Labour has always been second, with the exception of just two elections - 1983 & 1987.

Cities of London and Westminster (UK Parliament constituency) - Wikipedia


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's been a safe Tory seat since its creation at the 1950 general election, Labour has always been second, with the exception of just two elections - 1983 & 1987.
> 
> Cities of London and Westminster (UK Parliament constituency) - Wikipedia



Looks like a 'glittering' media career for Chukka......


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Looks like a 'glittering' media career for Chukka......


i don't know why you keep adding a superfluous k


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

> A government source who would know says this is true,
> 
> As of this morning there were three days separating the Lib Dems and the SNP, who want the early election on Monday 9 December, and the government, who wanted it on Thursday 12. Now the government is shifting, and the gap is down to two days.
> 
> ...



FFS they are still arguing over what day of the week the GE should be held.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know why you keep adding a superfluous k



Because he's worth it.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

So...LP says it's game on?

Yo Ho Ho


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So...LP says it's game on?
> 
> Yo Ho Ho


this will end well


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> this will end well



For who?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

Excitingly we're likely to be moving in December, but our electoral registration will be in our current constituency. I will therefore have the chance to vote for who someone else’s MP will be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> For who?


it's what i always say when a course of action is embarked on which will be a great catastrophe


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> For who?


Whom. For _whom_.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Yeah, apparently Labour is whipping MPs to support the election now, fuck knows why they didn't do that yesterday.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yeah, apparently Labour is whipping MPs to support the election now, fuck knows why they didn't do that yesterday.


Because the EU hadn’t tweeted anything at that point.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Whom. For _whom_.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

this is going to be the worst election evah


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Because the EU hadn’t tweeted anything at that point.



They had, the extension until 31st Jan. was announced in the morning, the vote was in the evening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

if the 'corbyn ruined christmas' thing hadn't been done a few years back it'd be a front runner for a seasonal headline this year


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> this is going to be the worst election evah


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 188492


it will be if a load of current mps lose their seats.

people like boris johnson with a 5,034 majority in uxbridge


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> They had, the extension until 31st Jan. was announced in the morning, the vote was in the evening.


Maybe they forgot to @ Jezza.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it will be if a load of current mps lose their seats.
> 
> people like boris johnson with a 5,034 majority in uxbridge


Hope Uxbridge & South Ruislip CLP have got enough tea cups & mugs for all the volunteers that'll be rocking up to help them canvass.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Whom. For _whom_.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Maybe they forgot to @ Jezza.



I think Jezza has woken-up to the fact that the LibDems & SNP have pissed on him, so he has no choice but to change his position.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


>


Sorry. It’s a slow morning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

pity there'll be no anti-election alliance


----------



## not a trot (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think Jezza has woken-up to the fact that the LibDems & SNP have pissed on him, so he has no choice but to change his position.



Fucking good position going into an election.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> people like boris johnson with a 5,034 majority in uxbridge



i thought it was already fairly common knowledge that he's moving to a safer seat?


----------



## BristolEcho (Oct 29, 2019)

*deletes all social media*


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

not a trot said:


> Fucking good position going into an election.




Perhaps they'll wheel out Richard 'eighth-wit' Burgon to explain it to us?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry. It’s a slow morning.



For _whom_?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

Tory line..._Only a vote for the Brexit Party can stop Brexit now _?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Asking for a GE 35 times, voting against one 3 times, before changing his mind, because he's outmanoeuvred by the LibDems & SNP, isn't a good look for Corbyn IMO. 

Yeah, but no, but yeah.


----------



## rekil (Oct 29, 2019)

Someone do poll pls. Nice'n'Public.


----------



## binka (Oct 29, 2019)

20/1 for a labour majority - just in time for Christmas too


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i thought it was already fairly common knowledge that he's moving to a safer seat?


There have been rumours. Unless you where he's moving too of course


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> There have been rumours. Unless you where he's moving too of course



maybe i read too much in to something then (or whoever wrote whatever i read had)


----------



## Flavour (Oct 29, 2019)

well, let's speculate. after all, that's the fun bit.

let's say the tories again fail to get an outright majority (which is difficult now snp have cleaned up in scotland)... and for whatever reason, a coalition with the DUP won't deliver a majority either.

you've got the lib dems and the SNP both potentially ready to go into coalition with the tories (have the SNP ever explicity said they wouldn't? even if they had, do we trust them?)... but each making a separate demand: the lib dems that there be a second ref / peoples vote and the SNP that there be indyref2...

what does boris do then?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Sky is now reporting 'rumours' tweeted by a Labour backbench MP that some shadow cabinet members & whips have resigned over Corbyn's change of direction.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

Flavour said:


> well, let's speculate. after all, that's the fun bit.
> 
> let's say the tories again fail to get an outright majority (which is difficult now snp have cleaned up in scotland)... and for whatever reason, a coalition with the DUP won't deliver a majority either.
> 
> ...


Can't he just bungle along till we crash out on 31 Jan?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 29, 2019)

Surely the SNP wouldn't go into coalition with the Tories. That's an instant way to be blow their very strong position in Scotland, a massive chunk of their voters would see it as a massive betrayal.

ETA: The Lib Dems would be all over it of course. They'd probably sell out the second ref stuff in a moment.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Flavour said:


> well, let's speculate. after all, that's the fun bit.
> 
> let's say the tories again fail to get an outright majority (which is difficult now snp have cleaned up in scotland)... and for whatever reason, a coalition with the DUP won't deliver a majority either.
> 
> ...



Fancy sharing whatever you have been smoking?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

Flavour said:


> have the SNP ever explicity said they wouldn't?


Yes, they have.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Fancy sharing whatever you have been smoking?



you think tory majority nailed on then?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Flavour said:


> you think tory majority nailed on then?



I think the odds are on that, Labour is sadly in a complete mess.


----------



## Smangus (Oct 29, 2019)

Another hung parliament and a Labour leadership battle after. Brexit Flextention until summer 2020.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

"


----------



## skyscraper101 (Oct 29, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2019)

Alastair Campbell's come out against having an election. So that's something to be said for having one.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 29, 2019)

I'm dreaming of a hung christmas


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


>




Corrected that for her...

#Breaking Liberal Democrat MP Heidi Allen has said she will not stand in the next General Election, adding that she is “certain to lose, so I am jumping before the electorate push me"


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Oh dear, what a shame, never mind.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm dreaming of a hung christmas



’twas christmas day in the workhouse,
the candidates came in view,
the promises, they were many,
the explanations, they were few,
up spake a brave old trooper,
he was as bold as brass,
I don’t want your christmas ballot,
stick it up your arse!


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm dreaming of a hung christmas



Santa Clause Four?


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think the odds are on that, Labour is sadly in a complete mess.



I’m not Corbyn’s greatest fan, but the ball’s in play now. Let’s see what happens. 

It’s not as if the Tories are in a great place. They will be squeezed in both Scotland and the Remain parts of the South. We are yet to see if they can really gain in the Labour North. They may struggle to.

They are very reliant on Johnson’s electoral ‘magic’. The rest of the Government is full of absolute twats who will need keeping off the TV. Should any revelation damage Johnson (Arcuri?) it could get close.

C’mon Jezza, get on the stump again.


----------



## Beermoth (Oct 29, 2019)

What is point Green Party what is point


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm dreaming of a hung christmas


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm dreaming of a hung christmas


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 29, 2019)

Had labour canvassers round mine the other day, to be expected, election imminent. Told bloke who knocked my door I would probably vote labour in GE as didn't want a tory MP but declined invitation to put a fucking poster in my window. Anyway now I get to look forward to answering door to some tory wankers, last time round I did so in my pants. It's the little pleasures.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anyway now I get to look forward to answering door to some tory wankers, last time round I did so in my pants. It's the little pleasures.


Nice that you've got a name for them.


----------



## Rimbaud (Oct 29, 2019)

Reasonable chance that DUP will lose Belfast South to SDLP, Belfast North to Sinn Fein, and potentially even Belfast East to Alliance.

This would mean 8 Sinn Fein seats, 1 SDLP seat, 7 DUP seats, 1 Alliance seat, and 1 independent (unionist). Or in other words, 9 Nationalist seats, 1 neutral, and 8 unionist seats.

This would be the first election since partition in which nationalist MPs outnumber unionist.

United Ireland not far away.


----------



## quiet guy (Oct 29, 2019)

Had the Brexit Party canvassing around my street and some mugs have fallen for their shite and are displaying posters. This is Denis Skinner's constituency and Labour are going to have to pull their fingers out to canvass and spread the message and not just expect the votes.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 29, 2019)

Last December election was in 1923. Conservatives won most seats, but hung parliament. 

A repeat would be funny.


----------



## binka (Oct 29, 2019)

quiet guy said:


> Had the Brexit Party canvassing around my street and some mugs have fallen for their shite and are displaying posters. This is Denis Skinner's constituency and Labour are going to have to pull their fingers out to canvass and spread the message and not just expect the votes.


Is Skinner standing? Think that would make him father of the house? Assuming Clarke sticks to his word and doesn't stand again


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Last December election was in 1923. Conservatives won most seats, but hung parliament.
> 
> A repeat would be funny.


Hmm..


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 29, 2019)

Corbyn's backing means election is on

Interesting photo they're using...


----------



## quiet guy (Oct 29, 2019)

binka said:


> Is Skinner standing? Think that would make him father of the house? Assuming Clarke sticks to his word and doesn't stand again


Not seen anything locally to say that he isn't standing but time will tell.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

EDIT - got my figures muddled-up.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Corbyn's backing means election is on
> 
> Interesting photo they're using...
> 
> View attachment 188526



Just plain abuse of staff and shouldn’t be tolerated. Make the bosses wear those tops.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Hmm..
> 
> View attachment 188524



Odd that there is already 118 (counting Sein Fein) so it’s not the wildest prediction even if many Change/Independents will lose their seats.


----------



## belboid (Oct 29, 2019)

quiet guy said:


> Not seen anything locally to say that he isn't standing but time will tell.


If he was stepping down we'd know. The selection timetable, at least, would be out by now, but it isn't. So he's staying on.

Not sure what is/will be happening with Derby North though.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Odd that there is already 118 (counting Sein Fein) so it’s not the wildest prediction even if many Change/Independents will lose their seats.



This includes the 20+ Tories like Clarke who have had the whip withdrawn. There’s currently 30-35 Independents. There is no way that will remain the same.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 29, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> This includes the 20+ Tories like Clarke who have had the whip withdrawn. There’s currently 30-35 Independents. There is no way that will remain the same.





> Boris Johnson has restored the Conservative whip to 10 of the 21 Tory MPs expelled last month for rebelling to stop a no-deal Brexit, including Churchill's grandson Sir Nicholas Soames and former cabinet minister Greg Clark, a party spokesman has announced.
> 10 rebel Tories have whip restored after rebelling against no-deal Brexit


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Corbyn's backing means election is on
> 
> Interesting photo they're using...
> 
> View attachment 188526


Must be a Scottish election. The T shirt appears to read “cunt aff”, which isn’t  an instruction I’ve head south of the border.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 29, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> This includes the 20+ Tories like Clarke who have had the whip withdrawn. There’s currently 30-35 Independents. There is no way that will remain the same.



And as if by magic, radio is reporting this very second that 10 of them have just had the whip restored and are no longer Independents.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> And as if by magic, radio is reporting this very second that 10 of them have just had the whip restored and are no longer Independents.


And  of those that haven't had the whip restored, how many will be standing again? (Not Philip Hammond or Ken Clarke)
)


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

How’s the Queen? What if she dies at the time of the GE?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> How’s the Queen? What if she dies at the time of the GE?



or if she does the reggie perrin thing and fakes her death because she can't face any more of this shit?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> or if she does the reggie perrin thing and fakes her death because she can't face any more of this shit?


And names herself after the first thing she sees over a hedge.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

I've long been saying HM should keep her hand over her teacup till it's all over.


----------



## andysays (Oct 29, 2019)

December 12th it is then


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2019)

andysays said:


> December 12th it is then



Can eliminate the votes of anyone who has a work Xmas Party that night and has a habit of going on to the pub after the meal.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> I’m not Corbyn’s greatest fan, but the ball’s in play now. Let’s see what happens.
> 
> It’s not as if the Tories are in a great place. They will be squeezed in both Scotland and the Remain parts of the South. We are yet to see if they can really gain in the Labour North. They may struggle to.
> 
> ...


I’d like it to be otherwise but I think the Tories are in a great place tbh .


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

Parliament to be dissolved on the 5th of November.

Insert gag here.


----------



## hash tag (Oct 29, 2019)

I know of two Christmas parties that day. Not mine, I doubt if will we be having one.
btw. does this mean we can cancel Christmas?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> I know of two Christmas parties that day. Not mine, I doubt if will we be having one.
> btw. does this mean we can cancel Christmas?


Boris Johnson ruined Christmas


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Parliament to be dissolved on the 5th of November.
> 
> Insert gag here.


Acid a change on gunpowder


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

As I said





brogdale said:


> Buckle up, arms in...here we go...



Aaaannnd....they're aawwfff...


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Parliament to be dissolved on the 5th of November.
> 
> Insert gag here.



You melts!


----------



## tommers (Oct 29, 2019)

The day of our xmas party. Great.


----------



## hash tag (Oct 29, 2019)

Johnson killed Christmas...the very best thing he has done ​


----------



## Looby (Oct 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> I know of two Christmas parties that day. Not mine, I doubt if will we be having one.
> btw. does this mean we can cancel Christmas?



Ours is the 13th so at least we can go out and get drunk. Although I’m on duty so there’s always a chance I won’t make it out at all if there’s a crisis.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

tommers said:


> The day of our xmas party. Great.


Open till 10pm; could be some scenes behind those little curtains across the booths.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Open till 10pm; could be some scenes behind those little curtains across the booths.


You have curtains on your booths? Are you in Russia?


----------



## hash tag (Oct 29, 2019)




----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> I’d like it to be otherwise but I think the Tories are in a great place tbh .



Yes, Brexit counts for a massive amount and would seem to put a lot of votes in the Tory bag. 

But in other respects they are not in such a great place - he's a PM who continually loses votes, failed to deliver his 31st October promise, has alienated natural support of unionists of all sorts, faces meltdown in Scotland, pressure in the Tory Remain seats, has other issues like Arcuri that threaten to boil over, has ex-ministers ready to cause trouble and has a calamity prone cabinet comprised of what must be the thickest group of shits ever to take the name. Moreover the strategy to mitigate these deficits is the Tories (or their provisional wing the BP) need to take Labour heartlands.

In any post war election these would have been seen as potentially fatal problems. They probably won't be, but a majority is by no means assured.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 29, 2019)

Phew - glad it's the twelfth for purely selfish reasons (It means a four-day weekend for me)


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2019)

Watershed election , could be the end of Corbyn and Corbynism.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 29, 2019)

For fuck sake, here we go again.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> For fuck sake, here we go again.


Not another one.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> You have curtains on your booths? Are you in Russia?


Yeah, maybe I've just imagined that.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Watershed election , could be the end of Corbyn and Corbynism.


Wonder if we could find a post from 2017 that said exactly that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, maybe I've just imagined that.


You’re thinking of confessionals. And you’ve outed yourself as a Catholic.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 29, 2019)

I'm in Amsterdam that week,  oh well


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> You’re thinking of confessionals. And you’ve outed yourself as a Catholic.


What a day! earlier I was _YOu're a (old punk) cunt_!
Now a Cath!
FS Urban.


----------



## treelover (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Yes, Brexit counts for a massive amount and would seem to put a lot of votes in the Tory bag.
> 
> But in other respects they are not in such a great place - he's a PM who continually loses votes, failed to deliver his 31st October promise, has alienated natural support of unionists of all sorts, faces meltdown in Scotland, pressure in the Tory Remain seats, has other issues like Arcuri that threaten to boil over, has ex-ministers ready to cause trouble and has a calamity prone cabinet comprised of what must be the thickest group of shits ever to take the name. Moreover the strategy to mitigate these deficits is the Tories (or their provisional wing the BP) need to take Labour heartlands.
> 
> In any post war election these would have been seen as potentially fatal problems. They probably won't be, but a majority is by no means assured.




most of those errors, etc, will be forgotten in a GE

oh, and much of the fight and bile from the right is going to be on social media, unless you are targeted, or read the guardian, which will document it, you won't really know it is happening.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

treelover said:


> most of those errors, etc, will be forgotten in a GE
> 
> oh, and much of the fight and bile from the right is going to be on social media, unless you are targeted, or read the guardian, which will document it, you won't really know it is happening.


True. Most of the campaigning will be done invisibly online rather than on the doorstep. (Plus the Tories don't have the foot soldiers these days anyway.)


----------



## moochedit (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Open till 10pm; could be some scenes behind those little curtains across the booths.



Also opens at 7am. I usually vote early before i go to work. If i leave it til the evening something comes up and i don't get round to it.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Also opens at 7am. I usually vote early before i go to work. If i leave it til the evening something comes up and i don't get round to it.


Good for you! If only all electors would be as responsible!


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 29, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Also opens at 7am. I usually vote early before i go to work. If i leave it til the evening something comes up and i don't get round to it.



Ah, that’s good, I’ll get it done first thing.

Unsure who to vote for though


----------



## moochedit (Oct 29, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Good for you! If only all electors would be as responsible!



Does depend on your start time at work and how far you have to travel to be fair.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 29, 2019)

In no way a prediction this but I did enjoy how rapidly the wheels came off tory campaign last time round ('nothing has changed nothing has changed' haha was in wrexham that, fuck off you twats) and will be keen to see where we are in a month


----------



## moochedit (Oct 29, 2019)

Have the boundrys been changed yet or are they still the same as last time?  Currently my seat coventry south is fairly safe labour but i did hear there were plans to lump us in with kenilworth which would tip it in the tories favour.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Does depend on your start time at work and how far you have to travel to be fair.


Fair enough. I apologise for the snark. It's a serious issue though, getting people out to vote when it's cold and dark.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2019)

Still surprised they gave a vote for this with no amendments 

let hope the polls have been bullshite like just before the Mat election


----------



## moochedit (Oct 29, 2019)

Is this official yet or are they still arguing over the amendments etc?


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 29, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Have the boundrys been changed yet or are they still the same as last time?  Currently my seat coventry south is fairly safe labour but i did hear there were plans to lump us in with kenilworth which would tip it in the tories favour.



All boundaries unchanged  ....


----------



## treelover (Oct 29, 2019)

For many disabled and sick people, this is a life or death election, its a shame that such groups are not more mobilised, but most are just existing day to day.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Is this official yet or are they still arguing over the amendments etc?



Has to go to the lords but has past the main house without amendments


----------



## killer b (Oct 29, 2019)

Nice one. I love a general election.


----------



## moochedit (Oct 29, 2019)

When are the cwu post strikes?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

quiet guy said:


> Had the Brexit Party canvassing around my street and some mugs have fallen for their shite and are displaying posters. This is Denis Skinner's constituency and Labour are going to have to pull their fingers out to canvass and spread the message and not just expect the votes.



His constituency voted leave. What message do you advise Labour to spread? It’s position on Brexit?


----------



## treelover (Oct 29, 2019)

'I know it looks like we are enabling Brexit by going into coalition with Johnson but really we are tempering his worst excesses ' Jo Swinson Feb 2020

posted elsewhere


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 29, 2019)

This is my first General Election since 1979 that I wont be drinking ahead of the results (also, and especially after they start to come in -- win or lose on the booze etc.   )

But this time, I'm 100% determined to stay with my already-scheduled "Give up for most of December" plan, similar plan to the one I had last year (it worked).

Thank fuck the insane idea of holding it on a fucking Monday (9th Dec)   has fallen by the bonkers-side though -- drinking or not, Thursdays are my Fridays because I don't work Fridays 
So at least I'll be able to stay up for the results  

</all about me     >


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

treelover said:


> 'I know it looks like we are enabling Brexit by going into coalition with Johnson but really we are tempering his worst excesses ' Jo Swinson Feb 2020
> 
> posted elsewhere


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> Has to go to the lords but has past the main house without amendments



Is there any real chance that the Lords will fuck about with the election dates? Surely not ...


----------



## skyscraper101 (Oct 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Nice one. I love a general election.



Same. 

Especially because it also means #DogsAtPollingStations will happen twice this year


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> This is my first General Election since 1979 that I wont be drinking ahead of the results (and especially after -- win or lose on the booze etc.   )
> 
> But this time I'm determined to stay with my already-scheduled "Give up for most of December" plan, similar plan to the one I had last year.
> 
> ...


Admire your good intentions, but there's got to be a very real risk that repeated exposure to the blustercunt's ranting will drive you to drink by the 12th of the month.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Admire your good intentions, but there's got to be a very real risk that repeated exposure to the blustercunt's ranting will drive you to drink by the 12th of the month.



I know .... 
But I'll just rant on the Internet _instead  of_ , rather than accompanied by, beer ...


----------



## killer b (Oct 29, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> Especially because it also means #DogsAtPollingStations will happen twice this year


fuck that cutesy bullshit though.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2019)

bluescreen said:


>



hey the lib dems have done it in the past

reason people won't vote for them again


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> hey the lib dems have done it in the past
> 
> reason people won't vote for them again


Yeah I know. Obvs. Hence the headslap. Not sure it's a reason people won't vote for them, though.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2019)

it a reason they will never get my vote again


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> it a reason they will never get my vote again


again?


----------



## tommers (Oct 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Ah, that’s good, I’ll get it done first thing.
> 
> Unsure who to vote for though


Maybe not the ones who's aim is to remove what little employment rights we have left?

Voting tory is like turkeys voting for fucking Xmas. Genuinely amazes me why it keeps happening. They don't even hide it.

I want to vote for the cunts who plan to reduce tax rates for people who earn over £100k and sell off the NHS or something cos God bless those fuckers.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> again?



moved to England and hate the Tories and was no fan of Blair

so voted more than once for the fuckers

Plus used to live in Twickenham for the first few years over
and Vince did not appear to be a someone who saddle up with the David Cameron at the time


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 29, 2019)

I set a bet with my mate this Sunday just gone, on the share of the Labour vote if there's a December election. Now there will be one, how well or badly will I do?

I predicted over 30%, he predicted under 30%
(*NB* : I did _NOT_ predict a Labour victory)

Here are the stakes (payable at or after Xmas , or in the New Year  )

30% : No win for either side.
31% : One pint (of winner's choice  ) for me ; 32% : Two pints for me, etc. etc.
29% : One pint (of winner's choice  ) for him, 28% : Two pints for him, etc. etc.

We're both Labour voters btw ...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> I set a bet with my mate this Sunday just gone, on the share of the Labour vote if there's a December election. Now there will be one, how well or badly will I do?
> 
> I predicted over 30%, he predicted under 30%
> (*NB* : I did _NOT_ predict a Labour victory)
> ...


Can he handle his drink?


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> I set a bet with my mate this Sunday just gone, on the share of the Labour vote if there's a December election. Now there will be one, how well or badly will I do?
> 
> I predicted over 30%, he predicted under 30%
> (*NB* : I did _NOT_ predict a Labour victory)
> ...


Well, that's fascinating, but who do you think is going to be 'running/ruining the country'after Dec 12?


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> moved to England and hate the Tories and was no fan of Blair
> 
> so voted more than once for the fuckers
> 
> ...


I admit at the time of the banking crisis, having heard Vince Cable talking to Mark Thomas on one of his podcasts I did think he was basically sound. Though I've never trusted the Libs, the SDP, or the mash up they became, from when i was knocking on doors for Labour in south London back in the 1980s. Their leaflet was designed to smear our candidate by association without actually accusing him of anything directly and it was fucking disgusting. At that point the worst dirty trick that this naive, young and fresh faced campaigner had ever seen.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 29, 2019)

brogdale 's end-question : Depends!  

I genuinely do think that current polls have been unrealistically bad for Labour right now. Once the election gets full on, I can see _some_ Labour improvement poll-share wise, maybe only a modest one, but we'll see.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 29, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Well, that's fascinating, but who do you think is going to be 'running/ruining the country'after Dec 12?



Current answer only : Johnson  , but maybe not by much of a majority. 
I *definitely* wouldn't rule out a Tory/Lib Dem coalition again .


----------



## brogdale (Oct 29, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> brogdale 's end-question : Depends!
> 
> I genuinely do think that current polls are unrealistically bad for Labour right now. Once the election gets full on, I can see _some_ improvements, maybe only4u modest ones, but we'll see.


No, you're probably right...there's usually some convergence once things get going. The only thing is that this time it could be more of a 2 & 2 halves election, hence much harder to call and predict what % will yield 'victory'.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 29, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> Current answer only : Johnson  , but maybe not by much of a majority.
> I *definitely* wouldn't rule out a Tory/Lib Dem coalition again .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 29, 2019)

It’ll be over by Christmas, Chukka.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

Watching Newsnight. Burgon attacking Tories and LDs. LDs attacking Labour and Tory.

In both cases the key emphasis was Labour and LDs have a pop at each other. 

the battle for the 48% begins


----------



## steeplejack (Oct 29, 2019)

Bonkers election, really.

SNP’s biggest enemies in Scotland will be Christmas and Apathy. Santa Claus’ position on frictionless trade within the EEA post-Brexit considerably clearer than Labour’s who will come a very poor fourth up here behind the SNP, Christmas and Apathy.

Jo Swinson losing her seat in E Renfrewshire would be my personal Portillo moment.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 29, 2019)

Even I’d vote SNP to get shot of Swinson


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Oct 29, 2019)

Could be the election that ends parliamentary politics as we know them in UK if enough people on whatever side feel/ believe result is unfair/rigged/disastrous/gerrymandered etc. Could lead to either massive political disengagement by one section of population or another, or even explicit turn to extraparliamentary path by the “losers”. Can see some people just giving up in despair, or leaving the country if able, if result goes against them.  Highest stakes election in my lifetime, including 1979. This is before we even consider effect in Scotland and North of Ireland.....


----------



## Ground Elder (Oct 30, 2019)

It's off to a promising start with the Tories going for the tagline _Britain Deserves Better_


----------



## Sue (Oct 30, 2019)

Oh FFS. Another general election. 



Smokeandsteam said:


> Even I’d vote SNP to get shot of Swinson


 As an aside, I've never ever met anyone who speaks like Swinson. Her vowel sounds or something just sound really wrong/weird.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

Sue said:


> Oh FFS. Another general election.
> 
> 
> As an aside, I've never ever met anyone who speaks like Swinson. Her vowel sounds or something just sound really wrong/weird.


2015, 2017, 2019 - the fixed term parliament act seems to be really doing its job.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 30, 2019)

Ground Elder said:


> It's off to a promising start with the Tories going for the tagline _Britain Deserves Better_



Yes, and campaigning on 'biggest increase in spending on public services in the last decade' or some bollocks like that (I've decided to take a break from twitter)

bunch of cunts


----------



## weepiper (Oct 30, 2019)

Oh, another election? _*yay*.

_


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 30, 2019)

weepiper said:


> another election?



hi, brenda


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 30, 2019)

weepiper : Does anyone in Scotland succeed Glenn Campbell's name with "Not that one"? 

(Down here, we have a "Ray Davies" with Grey Trees Brewery in Aberdare, who attracts similar ...  )


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 30, 2019)

I have the 13th booked off for the first Xmas party of the season so I will be drinking the day after the election whether it is to celebrate or drown my sorrows has yet to be determined.
I  have really no idea how this will pan out.
The Tories have a massive lead at the moment but Bozo has effectively been campaigning since he became PM.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 30, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> weepiper : Does anyone in Scotland succeed Glenn Campbell's name with "Not that one"?
> 
> (Down here, we have a "Ray Davies" with Grey Trees Brewery in Aberdare, who attracts similar ...  )


We’re used to him now. And tbh he’s probably better known to younger people than the other one.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 30, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> We’re used to him now. And tbh he’s probably better known to younger people than the other one.


Yeah, I'm probably one of the youngest people to remember _that _Glen Campbell and I'm 42


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

Glen Campbell did become a bit more popular with the young folk about a decade ago, a bit of a rebirth that sadly didn’t last through Alzheimer’s.

This reworking of the Foo Fighter’s classic could almost be an election theme.


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 30, 2019)

tommers said:


> Voting tory is like turkeys voting for fucking Xmas. Genuinely amazes me why it keeps happening. They don't even hide it.



Deeply ingrained support for the tories within the tabloid media who have such a grip on the population?  Lack of effective opposition from a Labour Party who seem at times more interested in destroying their party than opposing the government?  Decades of education policy which has left many knowing little to nothing of history or politics?

I might’ve missed a few, but those are some preliminary guesses on why it keeps happening.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 30, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Deeply ingrained support for the tories within the tabloid media who have such a grip on the population?



Although given that circulation numbers are falling I don't think they have the influence that they once had.


----------



## tommers (Oct 30, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Yes, and campaigning on 'biggest increase in spending on public services in the last decade' or some bollocks like that (I've decided to take a break from twitter)
> 
> bunch of cunts


The best bit is when they refer to themselves as the "party of working people". Spat my tea all over the telly when I saw that one.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2019)

#BritainDeservesBetter


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

tommers said:


> The best bit is when they refer to themselves as the "party of working people". Spat my tea all over the telly when I saw that one.



Tell a lie, tell a big lie.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Puddy_Tat concisely summing up the GE so far...


Puddy_Tat said:


> bunch of cunts


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 30, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Deeply ingrained support for the tories within the tabloid media who have such a grip on the population?  Lack of effective opposition from a Labour Party who seem at times more interested in destroying their party than opposing the government?  Decades of education policy which has left many knowing little to nothing of history or politics?
> 
> I might’ve missed a few, but those are some preliminary guesses on why it keeps happening.



It's all about divide and rule isn't it. Making sure people have some out group to be against. They're on your side against the foreigners/unemployed/single mothers/whoever they can come up with. Sadly it's effective enough to keep them going.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Deeply ingrained support for the tories within the tabloid media who have such a grip on the population?  Lack of effective opposition from a Labour Party who seem at times more interested in destroying their party than opposing the government?  Decades of education policy which has left many knowing little to nothing of history or politics?
> 
> I might’ve missed a few, but those are some preliminary guesses on why it keeps happening.


Reminded me of this rather magnificent 1976 poster held in the National Gallery of Australia...seems tangentially relevant to our Yuletide election.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> It's all about divide and rule isn't it. Making sure people have some out group to be against. They're on your side against the foreigners/unemployed/single mothers/whoever they can come up with. Sadly it's effective enough to keep them going.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 30, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Decades of education policy which has left many knowing little to nothing of history or politics?


'Knowing' of politics has nothing to do with education*, and it is dangerous to create such a link

*might even say the same for history


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> 'Knowing' of politics has nothing to do with education*, and it is dangerous to create such a link
> 
> *might even say the same for history


Know exactly where that's coming from, but there is a long working class tradition of struggling for education that facilitates freedom of thought, something that neoliberal state education policy has determinedly attempted to undermine.
No coincidence that economic awareness became business studies, anything other than STEM at HE lost funding etc.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Know exactly where that's coming from, but there is a long working class tradition of struggling for education that facilitates freedom of thought, something that neoliberal state education policy has determinedly attempted to undermine.


But that is not a neo-liberal thing it goes back well beyond that. The state and capital have always attempted to use its cultural power to attack labours political knowledge. The splitting of economics from politics and the limiting of politics to parliamentary politics being prime examples.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

I know there's been quite a deal of mocking those (predominantly Scots nationalist) MPs complaining that the evenings are dark in November/December, but there has to be a real issue around evening canvassing sessions.
My previous experience of CLPs (albeit some time ago) was that evening doorstep canvassing sessions were an essential part of Voter ID, but they tended to draw to a close as dusk fell...with a concern that activists shouldn't really be knocking up potentially elderly/vulnerable residents in the pitch dark.
Gotta say I've been on the phone to my very elderly old Mum to tell her/remind her not to respond to any callers after dark.
Think this could be a real issue, setting aside the fact that there will be many party activists that themselves may feel less than comfortable heading off into less familiar parts of their constituencies/other constituencies in the pitch dark. Much harder for them to get of the sofa once its dark, rather than those bright, sunny evenings of May/June.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> But that is not a neo-liberal thing it goes back well beyond that. The state and capital have always attempted to use its cultural power to attack labours political knowledge. The splitting of economics from politics and the limiting of politics to parliamentary politics being prime examples.


Indeed. 
One classic example being the bastard iron-masters of the early iron industry (on the periphery of the South Wales coalfield) who, out of the very christian kindness of their hearts, set up schools for the little ones. They insisted the curriculum included the 3 rs; reading, writing & religion. They didn't want the poor fuckers to be able to work out how they were being twisted of their meagre wages in the company tally shop.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I know there's been quite a deal of mocking those (predominantly Scots nationalist) MPs complaining that the evenings are dark in November/December, but there has to be a real issue around evening canvassing sessions.
> My previous experience of CLPs (albeit some time ago) was that evening doorstep canvassing sessions were an essential part of Voter ID, but they tended to draw to a close as dusk fell...with a concern that activists shouldn't really be knocking up potentially elderly/vulnerable residents in the pitch dark.
> Gotta say I've been on the phone to my very elderly old Mum to tell her/remind her not to respond to any callers after dark.
> Think this could be a real issue, setting aside the fact that there will be many party activists that themselves may feel less than comfortable heading off into less familiar parts of their constituencies/other constituencies in the pitch dark. Much harder for them to get of the sofa once its dark, rather than those bright, sunny evenings of May/June.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 30, 2019)

Party activists might decide to go out in groups for safety - and it's a terrifyingly small step from that to them deciding to sing Christmas carols while they're at it.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Party activists might decide to go out in groups for safety - and it's a terrifyingly small step from that to them deciding to sing Christmas carols while they're at it.


That's an interesting point.
i'd assume that parties are under some sort of duty of care towards their member activists that go out and about campaigning for them and insisting that they should no go alone? 
Last time (2018 locals) I noticed that the vermin  & yellow vermin that I saw out doorstepping were doing so on their own using their phones instead of the paper sheets I remember. Presumably some party app allows this 'lone wolf' campaigning?


----------



## chilango (Oct 30, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Party activists might decide to go out in groups for safety - and it's a terrifyingly small step from that to them deciding to sing Christmas carols while they're at it.



Fortunately the LibDems will only be able to do that one constituency at a time.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

The self-culling so far...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The self-culling so far...
> 
> View attachment 188569


Not including those since the time stamp!

La Rudd & McLoughlin also baled.


----------



## ignatious (Oct 30, 2019)

John Curtice thinks the Tories will struggle to gain a majority.

Professor John Curtice Makes Surprising Prediction For General Election 2019 - LBC


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The self-culling so far...
> 
> View attachment 188569



I hope Chris Leslie stands again. He still seems to be deluded that he has some local support. Anna Soubry as well; her seat must be top of Labour's hit list and she's still there to split the tory vote, although probably not by very much.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 30, 2019)

Makes a total of 51 standing down now apparently. Though by the time I hit post it will probably have gone up again.


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I hope Chris Leslie stands again. He still seems to be deluded that he has some local support. Anna Soubry as well; her seat must be top of Labour's hit list and she's still there to split the tory vote, although probably not by very much.


Soubry is deffo standing again


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 30, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Makes a total of 51 standing down now apparently. Though by the time I hit post it will probably have gone up again.



There's a few notable omissions. Is Umunna really going to stay put? Amber Rudd?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> Soubry is deffo standing again



And, losing.


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's a few notable omissions. Is Umunna really going to stay put? Amber Rudd?


Ummuna is standing again, just in a different seat, Cities of London and Westminster


----------



## newbie (Oct 30, 2019)

a little rant

When the likes of Blair, Cameron or May became PM they brought with them a mainsteam political apparatus and an entourage well versed in how power works.  Corbyn and Johnson are made differently, they're mavericks with careers based on positioning themselves as irritants outside that mainstream.   Johnson more recently discovered 'principles' than Corbyn but has brought far more flamboyance to his performance.  The entourages they've brought with them don't have the grounding in power, they're also outsiders with the skillset to match It shows, every time one of the goes off like Patel's mate did last night, or Rees Mogg lounges looking aloof, or Cummings has an aide frogmarched out or last week's Chancellor has the whip withdrawn, or they all pretend not signing a letter amounts to dying in a ditch.

Thing is, the attacks against Corbyn- from anti-semitism to consorting with terrorists-  have been blunted by endless repetition and he/they have learnt how to handle them.  Johnson is vulnerable on corruption, his sex life and his disregard for anything approaching truth, his rotten performance as Mayor, as foreign secretary and as PM.  This shortlived government has already acquired a reputation for abuse of power, autocratic behaviour, breaking the law, abandoning promises, wasting money and being too frit to face scrutiny, from the WAB itself through the economic impact assessment to the budget statement. And on being turncoats, solid Brexiteers who took a principled stance on the 39billion, Irish sea border, unionism etc until they got some power at which point they abandoned all that pointless baggage, shafted their allies and settled in to arrogant, boorish entitlement.

In any normal election they might be seen as there for the taking, but this time it apparently suits most of the competing parties- Brexit party, Libdems, Greens, Plaid- to promote Johnson's notion that, as someone said, this one is a proxy referendum on Brexit.  I hope it's not, if ever there was a time to talk about food banks and the NHS and student finance and school whip-rounds and climate change and air quality and landlordism and and and... then surely the abject and utter failure of the third disfunctional tory government in as many years is it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 30, 2019)

I wish I believed that Johnson's manifest lack of fitness to hold public office was going to hurt him. It seems to be his main selling point.

If he continues to lean on 'I'm not Jeremy Corbyn' as his USP however, that might cost him.


----------



## maomao (Oct 30, 2019)

I'll be very upset if I don't get some doorknockers this year. It's the only time I genuinely allow myself to be as foul and abusive as I like.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Puddy_Tat concisely summing up the GE so far...
> 
> Bunch of cunts



It would be funny if someone revisited Brenda of Bristol and that was her latest take.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 188566


Gawd, you could replace all the Frankfurt School, all the Situationists, with just that bit of cardboard.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Know exactly where that's coming from, but there is a long working class tradition of struggling for education that facilitates freedom of thought, something that neoliberal state education policy has determinedly attempted to undermine.
> No coincidence that economic awareness became business studies, anything other than STEM at HE lost funding etc.



_Libraries gave us power._


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Gawd, you could replace all the Frankfurt School, all the Situationists, with just that bit of cardboard.



As succinct as it gets.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

newbie said:


> a little rant
> 
> When the likes of Blair, Cameron or May became PM they brought with them a mainsteam political apparatus and an entourage well versed in how power works.  Corbyn and Johnson are made differently, they're mavericks with careers based on positioning themselves as irritants outside that mainstream.   Johnson more recently discovered 'principles' than Corbyn but has brought far more flamboyance to his performance.  The entourages they've brought with them don't have the grounding in power, they're also outsiders with the skillset to match It shows, every time one of the goes off like Patel's mate did last night, or Rees Mogg lounges looking aloof, or Cummings has an aide frogmarched out or last week's Chancellor has the whip withdrawn, or they all pretend not signing a letter amounts to dying in a ditch.
> 
> ...


Yep. Labour lose on Brexit, not just because they have been shit on brexit, but a focus on brexit stops the election getting onto everything that's shit about Johnson and the Tories.


----------



## mack (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm hoping for lots of this...


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's a few notable omissions. Is Umunna really going to stay put? Amber Rudd?



Amber Rudd has just announced she won’t be standing for MP.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 188566



Do you know when/where that's from?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

Will Johnson be photographed juggling chips and coffee?


----------



## ignatious (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yep. Labour lose on Brexit, not just because they have been shit on brexit, but a focus on brexit stops the election getting onto everything that's shit about Johnson and the Tories.


The electorate surely by now have sufficient information about Brexit for it not to be a focus in terms of day-to-day campaigning. We know where the players stand on the issue and going over old ground is just going to bore people off.

By contrast there should be some enthusiasm amongst the electorate (and media) to move onto other issues.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

ignatious said:


> The electorate surely by now have sufficient information about Brexit for it not to be a focus in terms of day-to-day campaigning. We know where the players stand on the issue and going over old ground is just going to bore people off.
> 
> By contrast there should be some enthusiasm amongst the electorate (and media) to move onto other issues.


yes, how to deal with the mps upon their election


----------



## marty21 (Oct 30, 2019)

Saw a tweet from the Irish Border account , basically saying that this election would be just like a Northern Ireland Election -  except with Leave v Remain, rather than Unionist v Nationalist .

Whatever Corbyn does to make it about other stuff - it will be a Brexit election (like 2017 ffs)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Saw a tweet from the Irish Border account , basically saying that this election would be just like a Northern Ireland Election -  except with Leave v Remain, rather than Unionist v Nationalist .
> 
> Whatever Corbyn does to make it about other stuff - it will be a Brexit election (like 2017 ffs)


the status of mps will never have been lower in this country than it will be following this unedifying and perverse general election.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 30, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Saw a tweet from the Irish Border account , basically saying that this election would be just like a Northern Ireland Election -  except with Leave v Remain, rather than Unionist v Nationalist .
> 
> Whatever Corbyn does to make it about other stuff - it will be a Brexit election (like 2017 ffs)



2017 election, the votes went overwhelmingly to the two parties backing Brexit ?


----------



## marty21 (Oct 30, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 2017 election, the votes went overwhelmingly to the two parties backing Brexit ?


well, one party mostly backing it, and the other basically pretending to but not really backing it - yes


----------



## elbows (Oct 30, 2019)

Has the obvious slogan 'ditch Boris' happened yet?


----------



## newbie (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yep. Labour lose on Brexit, *not just because they have been shit on brexit,* but a focus on brexit stops the election getting onto everything that's shit about Johnson and the Tories.


yeah.  Maybe I'm the only person in the country to think that the leader of the opposition has got it more or less right in seeing his primary function being to hold his party together and position it for a GE.  Not to base overall strategy on fighting every battle on ground prepared and defined by the enemy.  To oppose throughout, but without presenting endless hostages to fortune by defining themselves entirely on the one issue.

/crying in the wind


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

newbie said:


> yeah.  Maybe I'm the only person in the country to think that the leader of the opposition has got it more or less right in seeing his primary function being to hold his party together and position it for a GE.  Not to base overall strategy on fighting every battle on ground prepared and defined by the enemy.  To oppose throughout, but without presenting endless hostages to fortune by defining themselves entirely on the one issue.
> 
> /crying in the wind


yeh that party unity's really holding together with about half the plp abstaining yesterday


----------



## a_chap (Oct 30, 2019)

It's the Christmas carol singers I feel sorry for.


----------



## neonwilderness (Oct 30, 2019)

a_chap said:


> View attachment 188572
> 
> 
> It's the Christmas carol singers I feel sorry for.


Maybe kill two birds with one stone? I might suggest it to my CLP


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh that party unity's really holding together with about half the plp abstaining yesterday



I hope you are not trying to imply that Corbyn isn’t a unifying figure. Admittedly it hasn’t been his own party, but boy has he kept the others together.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> Maybe kill two birds with one stone? I might suggest it to my CLP


it's being stoned they're afraid of

well, stones and other missiles


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Oct 30, 2019)

Absolute state of Plaid even contemplating this. 

Election pact pursued by Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru and Greens


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 30, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> I hope you are not trying to imply that Corbyn isn’t a unifying figure. Admittedly it hasn’t been his own party, but boy has he kept the others together.



A perfect example of the glib stupidity that seems likely to dominate what passes for political analysis this election period, particularly among the chattering classes and media pundit land.

As though Corbyn exists in a vacuum, the Labour right hasn't run a campaign of sabotage against its own party for the last four years, the left wasn't always going to use that same period to scrap both internally and externally over party power, the Tories and allies weren't always going to find a cause for unity when socialism is mentioned, that the reality of party politics was never going to match the prayers of the new faithful etc.

Yes, if only Owen Smith had won, then it could have been neoliberalism lite and the universal acclaim centrism brings (which TIG so handily shone a light on), all engines go. Toot toot.

I mean fucking hell I don't think Corbyn's a strong leader or anything, I'm not even going to vote, but the level of brainless autopiloted sneering that goes on from people who think voting can change the world but refuse to exit the fucking shallow end for it makes me despair.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> A perfect example of the glib stupidity that seems likely to dominate what passes for political analysis this election period, particularly among the chattering classes and media pundit land.
> 
> As though Corbyn exists in a vacuum, the Labour right hasn't run a campaign of sabotage against its own party for the last four years, the left wasn't always going to use that same period to scrap both internally and externally over party power, the Tories and allies weren't always going to find a cause for unity when socialism is mentioned, that the reality of party politics was never going to match the prayers of the new faithful etc.
> 
> Yes, if only Owen Smith had won, then it could have been neoliberalism lite and the universal acclaim centrism brings (which TIG so handily shone a light on), all engines go. Toot toot.



It was a joke FFS. Park the high horse.

But part of the wider campaign has been exactly that, however shitty and venal the other parties are, even the ones they chuck out agree on Corbyn as existential threat.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 30, 2019)

It's repeating a media canard with fuck-all brain behind it. You might as well be sharing a "hang in there" cat poster for all it adds to the conversation.

Edit: Sorry I realise the above is probably a bit aggressive, it's not aimed solely at you. I just get so fucking _tired_ of being bombarded day after day with people bashing out punditry that just rewords the same boring swill that a cursory moment of actual thought or research would reveal isn't even accurate most of the time. And it's only going to get louder and more stupid the closer we get to December 12th.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 30, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> It's repeating a media canard with fuck-all brain behind it. You might as well be sharing a "hang in there" cat poster for all it adds to the conversation.



You didn’t enjoy it. I get that.


----------



## Beermoth (Oct 30, 2019)

I will vote for whoever talks about Brexit least because I'm sick to death of hearing about it.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> I set a bet with my mate this Sunday just gone, on the share of the Labour vote if there's a December election. Now there will be one, how well or badly will I do?
> 
> I predicted over 30%, he predicted under 30%
> (*NB* : I did _NOT_ predict a Labour victory)
> ...



I reckon you've won yourself a pint or two, just about.


----------



## newbie (Oct 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh that party unity's really holding together with about half the plp abstaining yesterday


Doomsaying is easy but has been shown to be ott many times in the last three years, when there have been plenty of far more serious potential fractures, yet here we are with just a few resignations or purges.	

One, other or both of Johnson and Corbyn will be gone by xmas, but it's not over yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

newbie said:


> Doomsaying is easy but has been shown to be ott many times in the last three years, when there have been plenty of far more serious potential fractures, yet here we are with just a few resignations or purges.
> 
> One, other or both of Johnson and Corbyn will be gone by xmas, but it's not over yet.


i am not doomsaying, simply pointing to the objective reality that the parliamentary labour party is divided.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 30, 2019)

maomao said:


> I'll be very upset if I don't get some doorknockers this year. It's the only time I genuinely allow myself to be as foul and abusive as I like.


Great innit? They don't seem to come to mine any more though. Think they get warned that it's the house with the abusive weirdo who remembers everything bad the candidate has ever done.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Oct 30, 2019)

Beermoth said:


> I will vote for whoever talks about Brexit least because I'm sick to death of hearing about it.


Have you contacted the BBC to let them know?  They luuuurve takes like this. 
#VoxPops


----------



## maomao (Oct 30, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Great innit? They don't seem to come to mine any more though. Think they get warned that it's the house with the abusive weirdo who remembers everything bad the candidate has ever done.


I'm scared the Tories won't come back after last time. Cheeky cunt asked for his pamphlet back 'so someone else could read it' after the first barrage of abuse so I ripped it up in his face and threatened to fetch weapons if he didn't get off my property immediately.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Oct 30, 2019)

Prediction: there will come a time, in the not too distant future, when these spats over Brexit will be seen by some as a bygone peaceful age of civility.....


----------



## chilango (Oct 30, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> It's repeating a media canard with fuck-all brain behind it. You might as well be sharing a "hang in there" cat poster for all it adds to the conversation.
> 
> Edit: Sorry I realise the above is probably a bit aggressive, it's not aimed solely at you. I just get so fucking _tired_ of being bombarded day after day with people bashing out punditry that just rewords the same boring swill that a cursory moment of actual thought or research would reveal isn't even accurate most of the time. And it's only going to get louder and more stupid the closer we get to December 12th.



Yep.

Ideology working hard.


----------



## chilango (Oct 30, 2019)

Had someone claim (apropos of their intention to vote LibDem) that the economy was fine until the referendum.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 30, 2019)

Has anyone done general election bingo yet? Off the top of my head:

- John Harris does a vox pop of people who hang around in town centres on a Wednesday daytime, has revelation than not everyone is a Guardian reader.
- The Sunday Times does another front page reveal that some Corbynistas are _still_ acting like arseholes on Facebook and why has nothing been done about it?
- Diane Abbott puts her feet up on a train carriage seat, news fulminates for a week over this latest outrage.
- ANTI-SEMITISM
- Boris exposed for something vile, everyone shrugs except the Guardian and Mirror which go nuts and are then totally ignored.

Etc.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Threshers_Flail said:


> Do you know when/where that's from?


Not exactly, though from dim, distant memory I have a feeling it is a pic from the Occupy Wall Street times...or possibly a more recent anti-Trump demo; the former I think.
I found it here.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

Not sure how people feel about ruminations on political betting on this thread but I am considering lumping on a Tory minority govt, available at 9/2 from William Hill. Any thoughts? 

Apologies for this very limited contribution. I am actually going to go and do some doorknocking for Labour in a marginal seat or two, and I do think we have to take this opportunity to get the Tories out, despite the ham fisted approach of the Labour leadership to this election. But I can't say I'm filled with enthusiasm so I'm mostly thinking about whether I can make a few quid out of the election.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 30, 2019)

Not sure how a Tory minority govt could work now they have even pissed off the DUP.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Has anyone done general election bingo yet? Off the top of my head:
> 
> - John Harris does a vox pop of people who hang around in town centres on a Wednesday daytime, has revelation than not everyone is a Guardian reader.
> - The Sunday Times does another front page reveal that some Corbynistas are _still_ acting like arseholes on Facebook and why has nothing been done about it?
> ...


- Labour led coalition would lead to the break up of the UK, in hoc to SNP etc.
- Octopus predicts Johnson's majority
- Russians, something something, Corbyn, facebook, something something
- Commissar McDonald and your taxes
- Gary Lineker, lots of Gary Lineker - in person and in his pants
- How the politically correct/metropolitan elite/corbyn/some other people betrayed the people of Hull and/or Hartlepool and/or...
- Trump says Johnson is a [garbled bullshit meaning very good] but Corbyn is [garbled bullshit. Just garbled bullshit]


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure how a Tory minority govt could work now they have even pissed off the DUP.


True, but that doesn't bother the bookies or punters.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

_Do keep up at the back_...a few more to the cull...e2a : that's 57...and rising.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

Not sure when the fuckers prorogue off, but Bercow presumably returns to the back benchers for about a day or so before that. Wonder where he'll sit? Don't really, but I do like the idea of tory backbanchers tripping him up and flicking his ears. They'll probably make him sit with the Chunks, the ultimate humiliation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Not sure when the fuckers prorogue off, but Bercow presumably returns to the back benchers for about a day or so before that. Wonder where he'll sit? Don't really, but I do like the idea of tory backbanchers tripping him up and flicking his ears. They'll probably make him sit with the Chunks, the ultimate humiliation.


he might just take a break till parliament's dissolved (not prorogued)


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Not sure when the fuckers prorogue off, but Bercow presumably returns to the back benchers for about a day or so before that. Wonder where he'll sit? Don't really, but I do like the idea of tory backbanchers tripping him up and flicking his ears. They'll probably make him sit with the Chunks, the ultimate humiliation.


Only Monday (4th) & Tuesday (5th) as sitting days after he said he'd bale.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Not sure when the fuckers prorogue off, but Bercow presumably returns to the back benchers for about a day or so before that. Wonder where he'll sit? Don't really, but I do like the idea of tory backbanchers tripping him up and flicking his ears. They'll probably make him sit with the Chunks, the ultimate humiliation.



Parliament is due to be dissolved next Tuesday, 5th November. 

By some chap called Guy Fawkes.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> he might just take a break till parliament's dissolved (not prorogued)


I've only just got used to the word prorogued and now it's a distant memory.  Yes, I guessed he probably won't turn up as a backbencher, but do wonder if there will be an awkward day or two. Normally, retiring speakers are honoured and go paintballing with the Privy Council (I think). They'll probably just shove Bercow out with the bins.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Only Monday (4th) & Tuesday (5th) as sitting days after he said he'd bale.


ah! he's going boating then


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Only Monday (4th) & Tuesday (5th) as sitting days after he said he'd bale.


But he'll have to give back the symbols of office, such as his gown and ugg boots.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> ah! he's going boating then


Pitched straight off the terrace into the Thames!


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> - Labour led coalition would lead to the break up of the UK, in hoc to SNP etc.


I'm not really sure that they'd really risk that one considering it's what Johnsons just done


----------



## strung out (Oct 30, 2019)

Fucking cunts cost me £4 on exchanging my holiday money by calling the election when they did yesterday


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure how a Tory minority govt could work now they have even pissed off the DUP.



Part of my thinking is that it would be impossible for the Tories to work with anyone, even on the basis of confidence and supply, so if they find themselves as largest party they will have to govern as a minority, or at least attempt to. Labour led coalition seems fairly unlikely unless Lib Dems agree to work with Corbyn. Which they have said they won't. Which isn't to say I trust anything they say but I do think it's unlikely they would be a junior partner to Corbyn.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> I'm not really sure that they'd really risk that one considering it's what Johnsons just done



That's an interesting one isn't it? I still think they'll happily try it but would be hilarious if it backfired and the narrative became about Johnson smashing up the Union.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Pitched straight off the terrace into the Thames!


Only to be rescued by a heroic Sir Peter Bone, who dives in to save him. Following the rescue they form an unlikely friendship and go on to form a comedy duo on the northern club circuit. It _could_ happen.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

By the way, does this mean we don't want England to win the rugby world cup now?


----------



## andysays (Oct 30, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Part of my thinking is that it would be impossible for the Tories to work with anyone, even on the basis of confidence and supply, so if they find themselves as largest party they will have to govern as a minority, or at least attempt to. Labour led coalition seems fairly unlikely unless Lib Dems agree to work with Corbyn. Which they have said they won't. Which isn't to say I trust anything they say but I do think it's unlikely they would be a junior partner to Corbyn.


I find it difficult to believe that anyone here thinks that neither the DUP nor the LibDems (and potentially both together) wouldn't be willing to prop up a minority Tory government, if the arithmetic allowed and the price was right.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Only to be rescued by a heroic Sir Peter Bone, who dives in to save him. Following the rescue they form an unlikely friendship and go on to form a comedy duo on the northern club circuit. It _could_ happen.


_Sir Peter Beauuunnnne_!


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> _Sir Peter Beauuunnnne_!


TBF, Bercow's got plenty of catchphrases. Early tip for the Perrier award?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> By the way, does this mean we don't want England to win the rugby world cup now?



No, we definitely do, if that box kicking twat de Klerk gets a world cup winners medal that's it I'm going to hibernate.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

andysays said:


> I find it difficult to believe that anyone here thinks that neither the DUP nor the LibDems (and potentially both together) wouldn't be willing to prop up a minority Tory government, if the arithmetic allowed and the price was right.



Lib Dems would want a second referendum as their price. DUP can be bought on most things but not on the question of a border down the Irish sea. 

I'm not ruling it out mind just trying to weigh up the value. Are you saying you don't think it's worth the bet?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Not sure when the fuckers prorogue off, but Bercow presumably returns to the back benchers for about a day or so before that. Wonder where he'll sit? Don't really, but I do like the idea of tory backbanchers tripping him up and flicking his ears. They'll probably make him sit with the Chunks, the ultimate humiliation.



I'm going for 'in the heavily subsidised bar all day.'


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm going for 'in the heavily subsidised bar all day.'


To be fair, he may not have enough time. His last chance to abuse the House of Commons staff.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> By the way, does this mean we don't want England to win the rugby world cup now?



No because then one of those fat cunts will get SPOTY instead of Ben Stokes.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No because then one of those fat cunts will get SPOTY instead of Ben Stokes.



even better cricket isn't a sport


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Not exactly, though from dim, distant memory I have a feeling it is a pic from the Occupy Wall Street times...or possibly a more recent anti-Trump demo; the former I think.
> I found it here.



Thanks.


----------



## andysays (Oct 30, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Lib Dems would want a second referendum as their price. DUP can be bought on most things but not on the question of a border down the Irish sea.
> 
> I'm not ruling it out mind just trying to weigh up the value. Are you saying you don't think it's worth the bet?


I'm not expressing an opinion on the bet, one way or another.

But if your calculation about the likelihood of a minority Tory government includes an assumption that neither the DUP nor the LibDems would enter into a coalition or even a confidence and supply arrangement with the Tories, as you appear to me to be doing, I think that assumption is open to question.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 30, 2019)

Dominic Grieve and rebel Tories write to EU demanding EIGHT-MONTH Brexit delay

8 months


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'm not expressing an opinion on the bet, one way or another.
> 
> But if your calculation about the likelihood of a minority Tory government includes an assumption that neither the DUP nor the LibDems would enter into a coalition or even a confidence and supply arrangement with the Tories, as you appear to me to be doing, I think that assumption is open to question.



Yeah, it's open to question, not denying that. But it's 9/2, not evens.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 30, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> even better cricket isn't a sport



I'll let you tell Stokes that to his face.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Not sure when the fuckers prorogue off, but Bercow presumably returns to the back benchers for about a day or so before that. Wonder where he'll sit? Don't really, but I do like the idea of tory backbanchers tripping him up and flicking his ears. They'll probably make him sit with the Chunks, the ultimate humiliation.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

_Five more years._


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 30, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> View attachment 188583



Nice Freddy Krueger sweater.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> _Five more years._



that's a long Brexit extension!


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Flavour said:


> that's a long Brexit extension!


We've got the MEPs in place already...


----------



## chilango (Oct 30, 2019)

Wilf said:


> By the way, does this mean we don't want England to win the rugby world cup now?



Never did. They are the class enemy.



> *17 of the England squad heading to South Africa went to fee-paying schools*.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'll let you tell Stokes that to his face.



Hey, if you're happy to call Tuilagi and Vunipola fat cunts to their faces then I'm quite happy to discuss what is and isn't a sport with Stokes.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> Never did. They are the class enemy.



I'm afraid I've got some bad news for you about the South Africa team.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> Never did. They are the class enemy.


"...heading to South Africa..."


----------



## chilango (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> "...heading to South Africa..."



Like I know where the so-called World Cup of a Public School sport is.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> Like I know where the so-called World Cup of a Public School sport is.



You do, really


----------



## moochedit (Oct 30, 2019)

strung out said:


> Fucking cunts cost me £4 on exchanging my holiday money by calling the election when they did yesterday
> 
> View attachment 188581



That's quite a crash you caused! how much did you exchange?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2019)

moochedit said:


> That's quite a crash you caused! how much did you exchange?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

chilango said:


> Like I know where the so-called World Cup of a Public School sport is.


'World Series' = Septics and a couple of Canucks.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 30, 2019)

Given the number of MPs keen to avoid contact with the electorate I’m guessing there are going to be a lot of seats without candidates.

Does anyone know a) when the candidate has to be officially nominated by and b) how Labour will fill these? I’m assuming the reselection process has to be abandoned now? 

I’m asking because my MP - Roger Godsiff - was subject to challenge


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Given the number of MPs keen to avoid contact with the electorate I’m guessing there are going to be a lot of seats without candidates.
> 
> Does anyone know a) when the candidate has to be officially nominated by and b) how Labour will fill these? I’m assuming the reselection process has to be abandoned now?
> 
> I’m asking because my MP - Roger Godsiff - was subject to challenge


triggers were suspended yesterday, but the NEC is still deciding on him and a couple of others (including Williamson and Vaz).  Next meeting is due next Wednesday, but I bet that will change.


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

Any bets on the new speaker?  That's going ahead this week we're told


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> Any bets on the new speaker?  That's going ahead this week we're told


Saw a snippet of Parliament TV yesterday at the point where Eleanor Laing had taken the chair for a bit; she didn't seem to know what was going on at all. Reckon I could have done as well had I been plonked down in the Speakers chair at that point.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> Any bets on the new speaker?  That's going ahead this week we're told


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> triggers were suspended yesterday, but the NEC is still deciding on him and a couple of others (including Williamson and Vaz).  Next meeting is due next Wednesday, but I bet that will change.



Ta. I presume/hope they bin the twat. In the event they do do they choose the replacement or does the local CLP?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

Whoever it is they should plonk a microphone in front of them on a table and call the MPs up to speak bingo style:

- He got drugs for some lads, it's Keith Vaz
- Mad as a Hatstand, it's Edward Miliband
- Erm, it's just Jeremy Hunt


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 188592



Is that a coded message that Theresa May is being lined up for the job?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 30, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> my MP - Roger Godsiff - was subject to challenge



I read that as Roger Godstiff.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> Any bets on the new speaker?  That's going ahead this week we're told


Will there be new deputy speakers to be appointed as well. I ask as our current MP Rosie Winterton might actually have to vote on something in the near future, if re-elected.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> I read that as Roger Godstiff.


Erections of Grandeur.


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Ta. I presume/hope they bin the twat. In the event they do do they choose the replacement or does the local CLP?


Probably the former.  They could let the CLP choose but it's unlikely.


----------



## killer b (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> Any bets on the new speaker?  That's going ahead this week we're told


I'm guessing Lindsay Hoyle.


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm guessing Lindsay Hoyle.



They're the odds because they're who we know(ish) is running. I an well see the Tories playing with the buggins turn norm and wanting another Tory in. Especially as they don't count Bercow as having been one.


----------



## killer b (Oct 30, 2019)

belboid said:


> They're the odds because they're who we know(ish) is running. I an well see the Tories playing with the buggins turn norm and wanting another Tory in. Especially as they don't count Bercow as having been one.


those aren't odds, it's a poll of MPs by yougov.


----------



## belboid (Oct 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> those aren't odds, it's a poll of MPs by yougov.


doh! So it is. Just very similar to the odds.  Tho I can probably work out why the odds are similar....

(still wouldn't bet against the Tories trying to play silly beggars tho)


----------



## Ground Elder (Oct 30, 2019)

From the FT - Brexit party considers pulling out of hundreds of seats to boost Tories 

Arise Sir Farage


----------



## killer b (Oct 30, 2019)

UKIP did this in 2017, and whoever was leader then (Paul thing?) didn't get a knighthood. Also the tories did worse in places where UKIP stood down.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 30, 2019)

nicky morgan is jumping ship also. lololol


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

Ground Elder said:


> From the FT - Brexit party considers pulling out of hundreds of seats to boost Tories
> 
> Arise Sir Farage


If they can afford some deposits, might just be a lifeline for UKIP?


----------



## killer b (Oct 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> If they can afford some deposits, might just be a lifeline for UKIP?


The current UKIP leader just resigned, I don't think they have the wherewithal to grab any lifeline dropped their way.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> The current UKIP leader just resigned, I don't think they have the wherewithal to grab any lifeline dropped their way.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 30, 2019)




----------



## gosub (Oct 30, 2019)

See Mr Trump will be in town the week before the election.  That should spice things up a bit


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 30, 2019)

Ground Elder said:


> From the FT - Brexit party considers pulling out of hundreds of seats to boost Tories
> 
> Arise Sir Farage



Couldn’t read behind the paywall. Let me guess, they are planning to only stand in seats that voted leave and where there is no leave supporting candidate? I predicted this months ago


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 30, 2019)

Corbyn is 9/4 to be next Prime Minister. After 10 years of Tory austerity, the second worst prime minister ever, followed by the worst ever and he’s 9/4. He should be 1/4. At least he’ll be gone in 2020.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 30, 2019)

maomao said:


> I'm scared the Tories won't come back after last time. Cheeky cunt asked for his pamphlet back 'so someone else could read it' after the first barrage of abuse so I ripped it up in his face and threatened to fetch weapons if he didn't get off my property immediately.


My mum used to invite them in and talk to them for as long as possible, well over an hour on at least one occasion. Her reasoning was that as long as they were at our house wasting their time they weren't anywhere they might actually persuade someone to vote for them. I'd do it but I don't have enough self control.


----------



## A380 (Oct 30, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> My mum used to invite them in and talk to them for as long as possible, well over an hour on at least one occasion. Her reasoning was that as long as they were at our house wasting their time they weren't anywhere they might actually persuade someone to vote for them. I'd do it but I don't have enough self control.


My Gran did this too. Then when she got really old she used to say she was a Tory voter and needed a lift to the polls. She would act really doddery in order to waste the driver’s  time and so get less actual Conservative voters to polling station.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 31, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I know there's been quite a deal of mocking those (predominantly Scots nationalist) MPs complaining that the evenings are dark in November/December, but there has to be a real issue around evening canvassing sessions.
> .
> Think this could be a real issue, setting aside the fact that there will be many party activists that themselves may feel less than comfortable heading off into less familiar parts of their constituencies/other constituencies in the pitch dark. Much harder for them to get of the sofa once its dark, rather than those bright, sunny evenings of May/June.



Of course, this will mainly impact a party with huge membership that has benefitted from door knocking and engaging with local communities, and be of no concern to a party that has barely any activists and relies on expensive precision-targeted internet dishonesty to get the message out.  Advantage to the cunts, yes?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 31, 2019)

gosub said:


> See Mr Trump will be in town the week before the election. That should spice things up a bit



stock up now


----------



## N_igma (Oct 31, 2019)

I’m just looking forward to put some Christmas bells and Rudolph’s big red nose on my giant spunking cock.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 31, 2019)

N_igma said:


> I’m just looking forward to put some Christmas bells and Rudolph’s big red nose on my giant spunking cock.



Fair enough, but when you actually leave the house, how are you going to vote?


----------



## andysays (Oct 31, 2019)




----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 31, 2019)

Mr Retro said:


> Corbyn is 9/4 to be next Prime Minister. After 10 years of Tory austerity, the second worst prime minister ever, followed by the worst ever and he’s 9/4. He should be 1/4. At least he’ll be gone in 2020.


Christ we going to have more and more of this garbage aren't we. Rob summed it up.


Rob Ray said:


> A perfect example of the glib stupidity that seems likely to dominate what passes for political analysis this election period, particularly among the chattering classes and media pundit land.
> 
> As though Corbyn exists in a vacuum, the Labour right hasn't run a campaign of sabotage against its own party for the last four years, the left wasn't always going to use that same period to scrap both internally and externally over party power, the Tories and allies weren't always going to find a cause for unity when socialism is mentioned, that the reality of party politics was never going to match the prayers of the new faithful etc.
> 
> ...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

Okay, I’ve found a guardian report on the debate in the BP:

Brexit party divided over election tactics

If Farage has leaned anything from the UKIP experience he’ll know the choice they have to make is to either finish second in around one hundred seats or to be genuinely competitive in maybe 20-30 seats. The talk of 600 plus candidates has always been bollocks. Once they get past 100- 200 possible candidates they’ll have hit a nutter seam anyway.

He’ll also know in a hung parliament where Johnson needed BP votes to govern he would have the influence and power he’s always wanted.

In electoral terms I still believe that significant numbers of ex Labour voters still wouldn’t be able to stomach the idea of voting Tory. No such historical qualms exist with the BP.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Oct 31, 2019)

Nuttall seam


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 31, 2019)

Interesting that Twitter is banning political advertising, is doesn't come into effect on 22 November, so I guess there'll be a big push to up that date.



> Twitter will ban all political advertising, the company’s CEO has announced, in a move that will increase pressure on Facebook over its controversial stance to allow politicians to advertise false statements.
> 
> The new policy, announced via Jack Dorsey’s Twitter account on Wednesday, will come into effect on 22 November and will apply globally to all electioneering ads, as well as ads related to political issues. The timing means the ban will be in place in time for the UK snap election.
> 
> Twitter to ban all political advertising, raising pressure on Facebook


----------



## killer b (Oct 31, 2019)

Doubt it, British political parties dont spend much on Twitter ads anyway - last time the tories - who spent the most - only spent 25 grand. The money goes on Facebook.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Nuttall seam



Precisely. Below the leadership they’ll have 20-40 serious candidates. After that it’s swivel eye land. Its enjoyable for us as their opponents unearth various head the balls, but Farage will know brand damage must be avoided


----------



## marty21 (Oct 31, 2019)

maomao said:


> I'm scared the Tories won't come back after last time. Cheeky cunt asked for his pamphlet back 'so someone else could read it' after the first barrage of abuse so I ripped it up in his face and threatened to fetch weapons if he didn't get off my property immediately.


In 26 years of living in Hackney , I have rarely had anyone knock on my door canvassing , it's a rock solid Labour seat (Diane Abbott) Tories have never darkened my door step , Labour don't really need to canvass hard , had a Green canvasser once during a Council Election , that's about it .


----------



## maomao (Oct 31, 2019)

marty21 said:


> In 26 years of living in Hackney , I have rarely had anyone knock on my door canvassing , it's a rock solid Labour seat (Diane Abbott) Tories have never darkened my door step , Labour don't really need to canvass hard , had a Green canvasser once during a Council Election , that's about it .


When I lived in Hackney I voted Communist  (Monty Goldman for Mayor). Tbh we get more action for council elections and the Euros in Romford. It's a pretty safe Tory seat. Rosindell the MP is a proper swivel eyed loon too.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2019)

maomao said:


> When I lived in Hackney I voted Communist  (Monty Goldman for Mayor). Tbh we get more action for council elections and the Euros in Romford. It's a pretty safe Tory seat. Rosindell the MP is a proper swivel eyed loon too.


In a very competitive field, Rosindell is also widely regarded as the thickest tory MP; some achievement!


----------



## tommers (Oct 31, 2019)

Can't wait to see which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> Can't wait to see which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.


Sovereign Military Order of Malta


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

Mr Retro said:


> Corbyn is 9/4 to be next Prime Minister. After 10 years of Tory austerity, the second worst prime minister ever, followed by the worst ever and he’s 9/4. He should be 1/4. At least he’ll be gone in 2020.


you should put a score on at 9/4 because those odds are only going to shorten.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> Can't wait to *Czech* which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.



Missed op.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> Can't wait to see which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.



He has got many hobbyist causes to pick from tbf


----------



## tommers (Oct 31, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He has got many hobbyist causes to pick from tbf


He does like his allotment.

And I hear his front room is a whirl of diving stukas and dog fighting spitfires.


----------



## Argonia (Oct 31, 2019)

If the Tories win a majority I am going to spend Friday 13th crying.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> He does like his allotment.
> 
> And I hear his front room is a whirl of diving stukas and dog fighting spitfires.



Manhole covers. 

But I was thinking more about his hard on for selected regimes subject to western imperialism or colonial subjugation


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Manhole covers.
> 
> But I was thinking more about his hard on for selected regimes subject to western imperialism or colonial subjugation


at least he's never gone full george galloway


0:30 on


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> at least he's never gone full george galloway
> 
> 
> 0:30 on




Salute to indefatigability. Was Tony Benn on that trip?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Salute to indefatigability. Was Tony Benn on that trip?


don't think so. but he went in 2003

Tony Benn was entirely ineffectual - and usually wrong


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Salute to indefatigability. Was Tony Benn on that trip?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

Nice one for posting that Pickmans. Haven't seen it for years....


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 31, 2019)

Lovely stuff.


----------



## marty21 (Oct 31, 2019)

maomao said:


> When I lived in Hackney I voted Communist  (Monty Goldman for Mayor). Tbh we get more action for council elections and the Euros in Romford. It's a pretty safe Tory seat. Rosindell the MP is a proper swivel eyed loon too.


I voted for Monty a few times


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> Can't wait to see which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.



 Israel.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

It's stuff like what Idris2002 has just posted that makes me despair.

Those posting this type of stuff on Facebook/Twitter it tend to think its a) political b) that other people are engaged by it and c) that's posting it makes them an activist.

I mean, 'do you want your vote to do anything'. It's just meaningless shite isn't it?


----------



## killer b (Oct 31, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's stuff like what Idris2002 has just posted that makes me despair.
> 
> Those posting this type of stuff on Facebook/Twitter it tend to think its a) political b) that other people are engaged by it and c) that's posting it makes them an activist.
> 
> I mean, 'do you want your vote to do anything'. It's just meaningless shite isn't it?


I think it's just a joke.


----------



## Idris2002 (Oct 31, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's stuff like what Idris2002 has just posted that makes me despair.
> 
> Those posting this type of stuff on Facebook/Twitter it tend to think its a) political b) that other people are engaged by it and c) that's posting it makes them an activist.
> 
> I mean, 'do you want your vote to do anything'. It's just meaningless shite isn't it?


Well, speaking personally, I just posted it for a laugh, like. I thought the "dogs know what I have done" bit was especially good.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Israel.


Beaten to it. It would certainly confuse the Guardian.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, speaking personally, I just posted it for a laugh, like. I thought the "dogs know what I have done" bit was especially good.



Aye, I'm not talking about on here.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> at least he's never gone full george galloway
> 
> 
> 0:30 on



For me the word indefatigable has no other meanings than the Galloway-Saddam love in and a Monty Python and the Holy Grail song:


> We're Knights of the Round Table,
> We dance when ere we're able,
> We do routines and chorus scenes
> With footwork impeccable.
> ...


A very special word that now has no other connotations than Stalinist sycophancy and Arthurian comedy. Probably not what it says in the dictionary - well done George!


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2019)




----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> don't think so. but he went in 2003



I went to a Benn talk/public meeting in Bedworth days before he went to Iraq. If I remember properly, there was a sense of how futile it would be, a sort of weary inevitability about his stance. A path well trodden, going through the motions, with more than a hint of self-importance. I dont think he was optimistic about it himself, especially since the war was looking inevitable despite certain pretexts for war coming a cropper.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 31, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, speaking personally, I just posted it for a laugh, like.



It's funny cos it's true.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 31, 2019)

Have we had this yet?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 31, 2019)

Wilf said:


> For me the word indefatigable has no other meanings than the Galloway-Saddam love in and a Monty Python and the Holy Grail song:
> A very special word that now has no other connotations than Stalinist sycophancy and Arthurian comedy. Probably not what it says in the dictionary - well done George!



A strange word, in my mind it associates with Lt Col Ian Stanley's adventures on the Fortuna Glacier in 1982. Pickman's model may wish to consult with him as to the best place to site the accommodation blocks up on the glacier.


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> Can't wait to see which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.



This is a good demonstration of the difficulty in landing punches on Johnson despite what a calamity prone lying incompetent he is. 

Corbyn allegedly met someone who was no one in the 1980s will get front page for days. Johnson actually plays tennis for cash with Putin associates, barely a ripple.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 31, 2019)

Apparently Boris Johnson is ditching Uxbridge and South Ruislip (majority of 5,034) and scarpering off to stand in Rutland & Melton (majority of 23,104)


----------



## gosub (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> He does like his allotment.
> 
> And I hear his front room is a whirl of diving stukas and dog fighting spitfires.


How big is his front room?


----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 31, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Apparently Boris Johnson is ditching Uxbridge and South Ruislip (majority of 5,034) and scarpering off to stand in Rutland & Melton (majority of 23,104)
> 
> View attachment 188668



How apt that he will stand in the land of porky pies.


----------



## killer b (Oct 31, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Apparently Boris Johnson is ditching Uxbridge and South Ruislip (majority of 5,034) and scarpering off to stand in Rutland & Melton (majority of 23,104)
> 
> View attachment 188668


What's your source on this? Anything beyond James Melville? Cause if that's all, I'd say it's balls.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 31, 2019)

I'm not saying Johnson wouldn't change constituency, cos there's nothing he wouldn't do, but why? 

1) Uxbridge and Ruislip is a Leave constituency, just because it's in London doesn't mean everyone is wearing EU berets.
2) 5,000 isn't an insignificant majority.
3) If he did switch seats to avoid losing that would be all anyone talked about for the whole election campaign. He would look like a muppet.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2019)

Hope it's true, a 'shithouse' narrative would be just fine and dandy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm not saying Johnson wouldn't change constituency, cos there's nothing he wouldn't do, but why?
> 
> 1) Uxbridge and Ruislip is a Leave constituency, just because it's in London doesn't mean everyone is wearing EU berets.
> 2) 5,000 isn't an insignificant majority.
> 3) If he did switch seats to avoid losing that would be all anyone talked about for the whole election campaign. He would look like a muppet.


election 2017: johnson majority 5034
election 2015: johnson majority 10695

not a lot of politicians can halve a majority in 2 years, but johnson can


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

rumours that the sun nick their stories off other papers baseless, news international declare


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 31, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> He would look like a muppet









i think that's unfair to muppets


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 31, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i think that's unfair to muppets



You say that but I honestly can't tell which one is which.


----------



## elbows (Oct 31, 2019)

Oh so the early stages of this election campaign features Javids version of class war.

Hugh Grant in handshake row with Sajid Javid



> In his interview, Mr Javid, 49, said he was at an event to promote Martin Scorsese's new film The Irishman earlier this month when the handshake incident happened.
> 
> "I recognised him and put my hand out and said, 'Lovely to meet you', and you know what he does? He refuses to shake my hand.
> 
> "He says, 'I am not shaking your hand'. I am completely shocked.





> "He said, 'When you were culture secretary you didn't support my friends in (anti-media intrusion campaign) Hacked Off.'
> 
> "I think that is incredibly rude.
> 
> "I wonder if people like Hugh Grant think they are part of the elite and they look down on working class people no matter what station they reach in life."





> On Twitter, Grant put across "my side of the story", saying he declined the handshake because he felt Mr Javid was dismissive to press abuse victims.
> 
> Grant, 59, has been one of the leading voices in the campaign for stricter press regulation, after being one of the victims of the phone-hacking scandal.
> 
> ...



Perhaps time to rewrite the classic sketch. I look down on him, because he is a fucking tory cunt.


----------



## Mr Retro (Oct 31, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Christ we going to have more and more of this garbage aren't we. Rob summed it up.


Yes, can't blame Jeremy, he's only the leader after all


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 31, 2019)

Bring back New Labour! 
These wet liberal need strong leaders prats don't they


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2019)

I suspect Johnson will keep his seat fairly easily, but with a bit of careful candidate selection, Labour could have a bit of fun and maybe put him under pressure.


----------



## chilango (Oct 31, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Hope it's true, a 'shithouse' narrative would be just fine and dandy.



To a point it doesn't matter whether it's true or not. Once it's out there and enough people's gut reaction is that it's the sort of thing he would do then the damage is done.

Just like Cameron sticking his cock in a dead pig's mouth.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2019)

chilango said:


> Just like Cameron sticking his cock in a dead pig's mouth.


Which he definitely did. Maybe not that time, but definitely another time.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Which he definitely did. Maybe not that time, but definitely another time.


... and if didn't, he might have. Certainly wanted to.


----------



## killer b (Oct 31, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I suspect Johnson will keep his seat fairly easily, but with a bit of careful candidate selection, Labour could have a bit of fun and maybe put him under pressure.


They've had a candidate selected and working the constituency since last year.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2019)

Wilf said:


> ... and if didn't, he might have. Certainly wanted to.


Even if he didn't, bet he wishes he had.


----------



## chilango (Oct 31, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Even if he didn't, bet he wishes he had.


...and he will soon (again?)


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 31, 2019)

BoZo  (sadly) isn't likely to lose his seat, being the leader of a party (let alone the PM) seems to make the local voters feel special. I would die laughing if he did but I think I'm probably safe in that regard. There is more of a chance that Swinson might lose hers (though I suspect she won't), I expect the SNP to do really well in Scotland.


----------



## gosub (Oct 31, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i think that's unfair to muppets


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2019)

killer b said:


> They've had a candidate selected and working the constituency since last year.


Oh, allow me to be rhetorical.


----------



## killer b (Oct 31, 2019)

I didn't realise you were being rhetorical!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> You say that but I honestly can't tell which one is which.


The creatures outside looked from pig to muppet, and from muppet to pig, and from pig to muppet again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 31, 2019)

Jo means business!


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2019)

These hospital trust managers and Multi-Academy trust mangers who agree to let the blustercunt onto their premises for the purposes of political propaganda...are we reserving places for them on the transports to the S.Atlantic Pickman's model


----------



## Argonia (Oct 31, 2019)

All this talk of the Lib Dumbs about winning the election looks like appalling hubris.


----------



## JimW (Oct 31, 2019)

Argonia said:


> All this talk of the Lib Dumbs about winning the election looks like appalling hubris.


They can't really do a leaflet begging for enough MPs to jump into the first shitty coalition available, sometimes you need the white lie.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2019)

Argonia said:


> All this talk of the Lib Dumbs about winning the election looks like appalling hubris.


I don’t think they’ll even get the 30 seats everyone seems to be predicting.


----------



## gosub (Oct 31, 2019)

Argonia said:


> All this talk of the Lib Dumbs about winning the election looks like appalling hubris.


I agree with Nick


----------



## teqniq (Oct 31, 2019)




----------



## Mr Moose (Oct 31, 2019)

Argonia said:


> All this talk of the Lib Dumbs about winning the election looks like appalling hubris.



It’s an hilarious tradition that started with ‘go back to your constituencies and prepare for Government’.

It’s a bit like that sketch about the English butler the Germans watch each New Year. A bit of mad eccentricity to laugh at.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2019)

brogdale said:


> These hospital trust managers and Multi-Academy trust mangers who agree to let the blustercunt onto their premises for the purposes of political propaganda...are we reserving places for them on the transports to the S.Atlantic Pickman's model


Yes, we'll need some beancounters for a few months


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, we'll need some beancounters for a few months


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2019)

tommers said:


> Can't wait to see which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.


Probably Scotland.


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 188671
> 
> View attachment 188672
> 
> rumours that the sun nick their stories off other papers baseless, news international declare




Sounds quite hostile for the DM


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Which he definitely did. Maybe not that time, but definitely another time.


I reckon he did it that time and the other time


----------



## kenny g (Oct 31, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> It’s an hilarious tradition that started with ‘go back to your constituencies and prepare for Government’.
> 
> .


Should be "go back to your constituencies and prepare to lie".


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Oct 31, 2019)

Starting well for Boris being booed at Addenbrokes, Cambridge today but student Dr delivers 5 min off the cuff speech


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 31, 2019)

The Lib Dem’s are going for the ‘bicep kissing strategy’!



> make big, bold claims about how tremendously you’re going to do, in order to convince the public that it’s possible. Most politicians are told to under-promise and over-deliver. The Lib Dems believe that the more they shout they can win apparently unwinnable seats, the more the voters may give them a go.



HuffPost is now part of Verizon Media

Jeepers!


----------



## ska invita (Oct 31, 2019)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Starting well for Boris being booed at Addenbrokes, Cambridge today but student Dr delivers 5 min off the cuff speech


Here's an optimistic scenario how the campaign might turn out:

-Brexit is on 'pause' and there'll be no new news to keep it in the headlines. There's already a lot of Brexit fatigue out there, so maybe voters might not be as pumped about it coming into the election. It's the end of the year, its dark out, and we're all exhausted. The Dominic Cummings approach has been to turbocharge Brexit, create maximum heat and ride that boost. But maybe that peaked too early and there's not enough Brexit outrage left to keep the momentum up - especially as it was Johnson himself who put the brakes on. 

-If that's true then there's more room for the domestic agenda to take a central role. The Tory election pitch is to throw a lot of money at hospitals and schools (whether true or not is not the issue). But hospital and school workers basically hate Johnson, meaning he can barely step foot in one without getting booed or similiar. In fact public appearances are going to be awkward full stop. By contrast Corbyn will get a much better reception. Over time this could become a clear pattern in media representation. Heckling Boris might even become a Thing. 

-Corbyn has already had every possible arrow fired at him - there can't be anything new to try and pin on him. Johnson by contrast has fresher rope infront of him. Might yet get hung a bit.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 31, 2019)

With Sandbach joining the LDs and standing as their PPC, Eddisbury could be interesting.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2019)

Trump interfering in the UK election

Trump criticises Johnson's Brexit deal


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 1, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Trump interfering in the UK election
> 
> Trump criticises Johnson's Brexit deal


Trump giving Corbyn a boost.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 1, 2019)




----------



## Dom Traynor (Nov 1, 2019)

My partner and I have just registered for proxy votes. Two extra votes to pile up for Stella Creasy.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2019)

Was just talking about this yesterday... 

Tactical voting website criticised for 'bogus' advice | General election 2019 | The Guardian


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Here's an optimistic scenario how the campaign might turn out:
> 
> -Brexit is on 'pause' and there'll be no new news to keep it in the headlines. There's already a lot of Brexit fatigue out there, so maybe voters might not be as pumped about it coming into the election. It's the end of the year, its dark out, and we're all exhausted. The Dominic Cummings approach has been to turbocharge Brexit, create maximum heat and ride that boost. But maybe that peaked too early and there's not enough Brexit outrage left to keep the momentum up - especially as it was Johnson himself who put the brakes on.
> 
> ...


Hopefully also drawn and quartered


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

MrSki said:


>



How times change


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 1, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Trump interfering in the UK election
> 
> Trump criticises Johnson's Brexit deal



Why would the BBC chose that headline when Trump endorses Johnson and denounces Corbyn? It’s almost like they’re trying to minimise his kiss of death.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 1, 2019)

Johnson accused of withholding key report on Russia from voters


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> With Sandbach joining the LDs and standing as their PPC, Eddisbury could be interesting.
> 
> View attachment 188729



Yes. Leave/Remain was pretty much 52/48 so that may be less of a factor or at least a more neutral factor. Has to be a Labour target on the basis the Tory vote could split..


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Johnson accused of withholding key report on Russia from voters


Smoking gun?


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

no.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 1, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Smoking gun?


Possibly, yes.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Yes. Leave/Remain was pretty much 52/48 so that may be less of a factor or at least a more neutral factor. Has to be a Labour target on the basis the Tory vote could split..


Obviously much will hinge on Sandbach's personal support/loyalty (& incumbency factor), but I'm afraid that I know nothing of the constituency.
Even so...one to watch.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Possibly, yes.


what kind of smoking gun are you imagining they might have uncovered?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 1, 2019)

tommers said:


> Can't wait to see which foreign intelligence service Corbyn is an agent of this time.



SEBIN?


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## teqniq (Nov 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> what kind of smoking gun are you imagining they might have uncovered?


I am not imagining anything. Large sums of money have been used to buy political influence in the past and probably will continue to do so.

How Britain let Russia hide its dirty money


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 1, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Here's an optimistic scenario how the campaign might turn out:
> 
> -Brexit is on 'pause' and there'll be no new news to keep it in the headlines. There's already a lot of Brexit fatigue out there, so maybe voters might not be as pumped about it coming into the election. It's the end of the year, its dark out, and we're all exhausted. The Dominic Cummings approach has been to turbocharge Brexit, create maximum heat and ride that boost. But maybe that peaked too early and there's not enough Brexit outrage left to keep the momentum up - especially as it was Johnson himself who put the brakes on.
> 
> ...



I do think the tories have had tunnel vision on brexit and they assume the rest of the country does too. In my experience people are more concerned about the chaos that greeted them last time they had to go to A&E, or the fact their kid's school is sending them begging letters, or the fact they haven't seen a policeman since 2016. 

Johnson secured the tory leadership by picking that 31st of October deadline as the hill he was going to die on. That was all he had to offer his own party even, and he blew it. If I were a tory MP I'd much rather someone else was leading me into an election in which I want to keep my seat.


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## Proper Tidy (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Obviously much will hinge on Sandbach's personal support/loyalty (& incumbency factor), but I'm afraid that I know nothing of the constituency.
> Even so...one to watch.


Mostly very posh. Tattenhall, Malpas - this is posh cheshire territory


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I am not imagining anything. Large sums of money have been used to buy political influence in the past and probably will continue to do so.
> 
> How Britain let Russia hide its dirty money


But what smoking gun do you think they might have uncovered, that Johnson is now suppressing?


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Mostly very posh. Tattenhall, Malpas - this is posh cheshire territory



Appealing to the millionaire footballer vote will be crucial.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 1, 2019)

BXP election strategy: No "Leave Alliance" unless the govt. drops the Deal


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

perhaps i was wrong and the only man in the land who can deliver a corbyn government is nigel farage


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Yeseterday's Evening Standard was reporting how tory candidates in London marginals are pretending that brexit and Johnson don't exist in their literature.  I bet if you live in a very pro brexit area the local tory will be hammering on about it relentlessly.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2019)

UKIP got 12.9% in the 2015 GE, yet the Tories still won with a majority, so I am not sure Johnson is going to be too worried about the current polling for the Brexit Party, esp. with Labour polling so low, and the LibDems so high.

Although, of course, it could all shift over the next few weeks.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps i was wrong and the only man in the land who can deliver a corbyn government is nigel farage



Unless their polling is telling them something radically different to what everyone else is seeing I am amazed by this.

Farage has clearly learnt nothing from the UKIP experience. At least 100 of the BP candidates will be head the balls, thereby damaging the brand beyond repair. They will be unable to flood resources in to winnable seats and will therefore end up with about 20-50 second places and zero MP's. Wow.

Johnson can't turn around and publicly rubbish his own deal and now Labour leave seats are likely to draft out of reach as the BP take 10-20% of the remain vote. This is the best news Corbyn has had for months. Who would have thought Farage would be the saviour of Labour..


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

Of course Farage could just be bluffing/negotiating. And there is no doubt a split within their ranks on the best tactics. But any debate of the best tactics would automatically rule out the option he's just announced.

As I said yesterday, anyone making any assumptions about this election, is likely to be proven wrong. 

I've been certain for months a leave alliance would emerge with Farage given a free run at Labour in 20-30 working class leave seats and the BP not standing against pro leave Tories. 

What the fuck do I know eh? 

Game on Jeremy....


----------



## andysays (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Of course Farage could just be bluffing/negotiating. And there is no doubt a split within their ranks on the best tactics. But any debate of the best tactics would automatically rule out the option he's just announced.
> 
> As I said yesterday, anyone making any assumptions about this election, is likely to be proven wrong.
> 
> ...


Sounds like Farage has been listening to his good friend Donald and is actually taking his advice seriously


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

andysays said:


> Sounds like Farage has been listening to his good friend Donald and is actually taking his advice seriously



It's either a stupid bluff (as he's demanding an unpayable price) or a determined bid to visit the dustbin of history. Either way, Labour has just been gifted 40 seats.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Brexit Party have a clear message which is their appeal.  If Farage starts softening and moving towards Johnson's deal it will instantly make them an irrelevance I reckon.  If they start trying to promote the line that no deal is possible under a Johnson government and that's why they can support it that might be a different matter.  I'm not sure that would benefit Johnson especially.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 1, 2019)

farage is being consistent with what he's been saying for years. the deal is shit, he can't support it. end of. i'm not that surprised. he's built such a massive brand over the years that's taken on an uncompromising "no deal" banner. there's no turning back. it's much more embarrasing for a politician with no actual power or responsibilites like farage to change his mind about something than it is for a PM like BJ who can blame the EU and so on


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

I'm not sure whether the Brexit Party being in the mix is a gift to Labour - UKIP standing aside in loads of seats in 2017 seemed to actually hurt the tory vote in those seats.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

Stephen Bush's piece from yesterday: Nigel Farage's plan to pull out of seats could actually harm the Tories


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 1, 2019)

I'm not sure any sort of deal is in Farage's interests really is it? This whole process of it being dragged out is working very nicely for him, probably much better than an actual Brexit in any form. After a no-deal it would probably be chaotic enough for him to keep himself in a prominent role sniping at any negotiations with Europe. A comfortable Tory majority voting through a deal though? Not sure where he'd go after that.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure whether the Brexit Party being in the mix is a gift to Labour - UKIP standing aside in loads of seats in 2017 seemed to actually hurt the tory vote in those seats.



And potentially in other seats too tbf - an explicit alliance with the Brexit Party is not going to convince any wavering remainy Tory voters to vote for them.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 1, 2019)

All this nonsense with split votes, marginal seats and so on, all of which is just to do with tactical maneuvers rather than having any hope of reflecting what people actually want, is why there should have been a 2nd referendum before any general election.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

But there was never the numbers in the current parliament to vote for a referendum, so whether it would have been better or not is moot.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> All this nonsense with split votes, marginal seats and so on, all of which is just to do with tactical maneuvers rather than having any hope of reflecting what people actually want, is why there should have been a 2nd referendum before any general election.


Well, if a referendum is to reflect what I “actually want” it needs to have an option for a European free federation of workers’ councils.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> farage is being consistent with what he's been saying for years.


not really, he was advocating a Norway model for years


----------



## maomao (Nov 1, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I'm not sure any sort of deal is in Farage's interests really is it? This whole process of it being dragged out is working very nicely for him, probably much better than an actual Brexit in any form. After a no-deal it would probably be chaotic enough for him to keep himself in a prominent role sniping at any negotiations with Europe. A comfortable Tory majority voting through a deal though? Not sure where he'd go after that.


This is the peak of Farage's power before the election. Even if he got a dozen of his nutters into the HoC they're not actually a party and he wouldn't be able to control them. This is all about his position in the post Brexit/not Brexit fallout and his 'legacy'.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, if a referendum is to reflect what I “actually want” it needs to have an option for a European free federation of workers’ councils.



I'll go for that in lieu of better options.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Farage has clearly learnt nothing from the UKIP experience. At least 100 of the BP candidates will be head the balls, thereby damaging the brand beyond repair. They will be unable to flood resources in to winnable seats and will therefore end up with about 20-50 second places and zero MP's. Wow.



Which is interesting in itself because the EU elections very much showed signs of learning from UKIP and doing some decent vetting of candidates to weed out uber-loons


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> All this nonsense with split votes, marginal seats and so on, all of which is just to do with tactical maneuvers rather than having any hope of reflecting what people actually want, is why there should have been a 2nd referendum before any general election.





killer b said:


> But there was never the numbers in the current parliament to vote for a referendum, so whether it would have been better or not is moot.



I think you are likely both right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> All this nonsense with split votes, marginal seats and so on, all of which is just to do with tactical maneuvers rather than having any hope of reflecting what people actually want, is why there should have been a 2nd referendum before any general election.


only if you're in america. here it's tactical manoeuvres


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 1, 2019)

Anybody looking at odds? I only bet on big political events nowadays, might stick a few quid on hung with same balance of power (tories need DUP)


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, if a referendum is to reflect what I “actually want” it needs to have an option for a European free federation of workers’ councils.


Lexit has been delayed.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anybody looking at odds? I only bet on big political events nowadays, might stick a few quid on hung with same balance of power (tories need DUP)



Yuck.  Is that one of those bets you make so you'll feel a little better (or at least a little flusher) if it happens?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 1, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yuck.  Is that one of those bets you make so you'll feel a little better (or at least a little flusher) if it happens?


No it's to try and make money tbh


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> No it's to try and make money tbh



Fair enough.  Can't say I personally want you to lose money, but...


----------



## extra dry (Nov 1, 2019)

Turn out will be key. 
  Labour, I think, will sqeak in with 32-35%. 
 Other votes will be cons 28-30%
 Brexit party 18%-20%
Libs 15-17%.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

So...the Faragists in every seat, then?

Hmmm..


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

extra dry said:


> Turn out will be key.
> Labour, I think, will sqeak in with 32-35%.
> Other votes will be cons 28-30%
> Brexit party 18%-20%
> Libs 15-17%.



Any thoughts on the Lib/Lab coalition concept?


----------



## A380 (Nov 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, if a referendum is to reflect what I “actually want” it needs to have an option for a European free federation of workers’ councils.



Well I want a European free federation of people’s ’ councils. So I’m going to invest all my political efforts in opposing you. Worse than Hitler.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

it undermines any claims this country has to be in any sense a meritocracy when you see the sub-mediocrities who attain political office and who people the upper echelons of businesses and other employers across the land


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

A380 said:


> Well I want a European free federation of people’s ’ councils. So I’m going to invest all my political efforts in opposing you. Worse than Hitler.


yeh i by contrast want a free european federation of people's councils


----------



## extra dry (Nov 1, 2019)

8ball said:


> Any thoughts on the Lib/Lab coalition concept?


Not really. 
Could they work with Labour?
  Who knows. Very interesting times.


----------



## A380 (Nov 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh i by contrast want a free european federation of people's councils


Facist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

A380 said:


> Facist.


how dare you  i have never judged people's value by their faces, not once


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 1, 2019)

I've never heard of the _ecological fallacy_ before.  This raises a question: is Rob Ford (whoever he is) a cock for using it in a tweet or am I a cock for not having heard of an often used and useful phrase?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I've never heard of the _ecological fallacy_ before.  This raises a question: is Rob Ford (whoever he is) a cock for using it in a tweet or am I a cock for not having heard of an often used and useful phrase?


is he the coward robert ford?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I've never heard of the _ecological fallacy_ before.  This raises a question: is Rob Ford (whoever he is) a cock for using it in a tweet or am I a cock for not having heard of an often used and useful phrase?



I think it’s very easy to live a long, productive and engaged life without ever running into that term.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I've never heard of the _ecological fallacy_ before.  This raises a question: is Rob Ford (whoever he is) a cock for using it in a tweet or am I a cock for not having heard of an often used and useful phrase?


Former; I had to look it up here.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Former; I had to look it up here.



I tend to take the view that if you use a term, and I don’t know it, then that doesn’t mean either of us have done anything wrong.

When it comes to politicians who are meant to represent and understand the needs of a large and diverse group of people, I think it’s reasonable to expect them to have some understanding of such things, even if fairly informal and intuitive.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So...the Faragists in every seat, then?
> 
> Hmmm..
> 
> View attachment 188758



I can only think he was forced into this to avoid a split within the BP leadership. It's the only reason that makes any sense. Ford's language is pretentious but the point he's making is the key one.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can only think he was forced into this to avoid a split within the BP leadership. It's the only reason that makes any sense. Ford's language is pretentious but the point he's making is the key one.



Brexit party has only one leader and his name is Farage.

Anyone else is a pyramid scheme buyer.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, if a referendum is to reflect what I “actually want” it needs to have an option for a European free federation of workers’ councils.


And an official spunking cock option.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So...the Faragists in every seat, then?
> 
> Hmmm..
> 
> View attachment 188758


I'm probably being thick here but wtf is the ecological fallacy?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Brexit party has only one leader and his name is Farage.
> 
> Anyone else is a pyramid scheme buyer.



That was also the case in UKIP. But, as we know, this doesn't mean that there were all sorts of vicious divisions bubbling below the surface. The BP will be split between the ultras who because they are delusional believe that they can dictate to Johnson and those who recognise their leverage and need to deploy it seriously. Farage has to keep them both on board.

I look forward immensely to the 500 candidates they are going to announce on Monday. At least 100 will be certifiable.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm probably being thick here but wtf is the ecological fallacy?


That a whole can be defined by a part, I think.

E2A: No, I have that the wrong way round. It's that features of an individual specimen of anything can be inferred from data about the collective whole to which that individual specimen belongs.

Ecological fallacy - Wikipedia


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I look forward immensely to the 500 candidates they are going to announce on Monday. At least 100 will be certifiable.



Anyone fancy having a guess at how many will be revealed to be nonces/other forms of sex offenders within 24 hours of announcement?

I'm going for 23.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Anyone fancy having a guess at how many will be revealed to be nonces/other forms of sex offenders within 24 hours of announcement?
> 
> I'm going for 23.


i'll see your 23 and raise you 20


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Anyone fancy having a guess at how many will be revealed to be nonces/other forms of sex offenders within 24 hours of announcement?
> 
> I'm going for 23.



About right. How many ex-fash? I'm going 14


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> About right. How many ex-fash? I'm going 14


i'll raise you 25 to 39 and some of these will also be in the set nonces / other forms of sex offender.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I've never heard of the _ecological fallacy_ before.  This raises a question: is Rob Ford (whoever he is) a cock for using it in a tweet or am I a cock for not having heard of an often used and useful phrase?


I don't think either of you are cocks - Ford is a professor of politics tweeting in a professional capacity, you'd hope a professor of politics might occasionally introduce you to ideas you aren't familiar with otherwise wtf use are they?

He's been banging this particular drum for years - not sure I'm that convinced tbh.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 1, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Brexit party has only one leader and his name is Farage.
> 
> Anyone else is a pyramid scheme buyer.


It definitely has all the signs of a good cult 


Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Anyone fancy having a guess at how many will be revealed to be nonces/other forms of sex offenders within 24 hours of announcement?
> 
> I'm going for 23.


Brexit Party candidates are the gift that keeps on giving with nonces, sex pests, racists (always popular) Christian fundamentalists and just outright loons.
There will be quite a few that will tick multiple boxes as well.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll raise you 25 to 39 and some of these will also be in the set nonces / other forms of sex offender.



Yes, there will be a significant nonce/fash intersection point.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> It definitely has all the signs of a good cult
> 
> Brexit Party candidates are the gift that keeps on giving with nonces, sex pests, racists (always popular) Christian fundamentalists and just outright loons.
> There will be quite a few that will tick multiple boxes as well.


Sometimes these are all the same person.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That was also the case in UKIP. But, as we know, this doesn't mean that there were all sorts of vicious divisions bubbling below the surface. The BP will be split between the ultras who because they are delusional believe that they can dictate to Johnson and those who recognise their leverage and need to deploy it seriously. Farage has to keep them both on board.
> 
> I look forward immensely to the 500 candidates they are going to announce on Monday. At least 100 will be certifiable.



No ukip was a slightly more traditional setup than the Brexit party, with established cliques and factions. Farage got in charge and became the front man but he didn't build it so there were elements not loyal to him or with own agenda behind the frothy madman despite him coming to become indelibly linked with it.

BP is a bunch of investors fronting Farage and then a plethora of people either getting scammed for donations or occasionally loaned cash to stand for seats. It's very much a business.


----------



## JimW (Nov 1, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'm probably being thick here but wtf is the ecological fallacy?


Silly argument but at least it biodegrades safely under a sufficient weight of shitposting.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> That a whole can be defined by a part, I think.
> 
> E2A: No, I have that the wrong way round. It's that features of an individual specimen of anything can be inferred from data about the collective whole to which that individual specimen belongs.
> 
> Ecological fallacy - Wikipedia


Yep, agree with many that Ford could have said that just because numbers of Lab voters live in Leave voting areas does not necessarily mean that they were Leave or Leave enough to change their tribal loyalty.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yep, agree with many that Ford could have said that just because numbers of Lab voters live in Leave voting areas does not necessarily mean that they were Leave or Leave enough to change their tribal loyalty.


Or he could have said 'ecological fallacy', which says all of that in two words. It's not that much of an imposition to look up terms you aren't familiar with is it?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> Or he could have said 'ecological fallacy', which says all of that in two words. It's not that much of an imposition to look up terms you aren't familiar with is it?


Well, we've managed to cover it all ways now. 

Anyways, the psephological point being made seems to me to be significant and, potentially, makes the Farage announcement quite an important moment in the early campaign.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 1, 2019)

Good to see Our Nigel stepping up


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Anyways, the psephological point


psephology is mind games for the middle classes


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure whether the Brexit Party being in the mix is a gift to Labour - UKIP standing aside in loads of seats in 2017 seemed to actually hurt the tory vote in those seats.



Speaking of UKIP, I wonder what those crypto-fascists and sex offenders are going to do this election under the leadership of Dick Braine? I wonder if they'll stand any candidates or if they'd rather lose money in other ways.


----------



## maomao (Nov 1, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Speaking of UKIP, I wonder what those crypto-fascists and sex offenders are going to do this election under the leadership of Dick Braine? I wonder if they'll stand any candidates or if they'd rather lose money in other ways.


Dickbrain's already resigned.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Speaking of UKIP, I wonder what those crypto-fascists and sex offenders are going to do this election under the leadership of Dick Braine? I wonder if they'll stand any candidates or if they'd rather lose money in other ways.


Braine resigned last week, I don't think they're doing anything much.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 1, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Speaking of UKIP, I wonder what those crypto-fascists and sex offenders are going to do this election under the leadership of Dick Braine? I wonder if they'll stand any candidates or if they'd rather lose money in other ways.



He just quit didn't he? Who can keep track.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 1, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Speaking of UKIP, I wonder what those crypto-fascists and sex offenders are going to do this election under the leadership of Dick Braine? I wonder if they'll stand any candidates or if they'd rather lose money in other ways.



Hasn't Dick Brain just jacked it in?

Keeping track of the UKIP leader is pretty tricky - and probably not worth it tbf.


ETA: Ah dammit. Shouldn't have gone for the showy second line.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

I heard he resigned


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 1, 2019)

Ah yes, on Wednesday apparently.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> psephology is mind games for the middle classes


Well that's quite a few of us here down as _PFMC_, then!


----------



## marty21 (Nov 1, 2019)

There seems to be a belief amongst faragists that all the labour leave voters will vote Brexit party - I've heard a figure of 5m labour leave voters - all happily voting for the batshit crazy BP candidates   I have my doubts that those 5m actually want BP MPs.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, there will be a significant nonce/fash intersection point.


I doubt the BPs vetting process will be any better than UKIP's, so a good few dv cases, a solid phalanx of facebook racists along with a smattering of Paul Nuttall level weirdos and fantasists.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I doubt the BPs vetting process will be any better than UKIP's, so a good few dv cases, a solid phalanx of facebook racists along with a smattering of Paul Nuttall level weirdos and fantasists.


They _claim_ there's a rigorous vetting process - the candidates have all stumped up a fair wedge of cash to pay for it in fact...


----------



## 8ball (Nov 1, 2019)

Dick Brain 

How they could have thought that would fly...


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> They _claim_ there's a rigorous vetting process - the candidates have all stumped up a fair wedge of cash to pay for it in fact...


Which is an interesting point; makes you wonder if there were legal consequences to any strategy that might have involved significant numbers of BP PPCs being told to stand down?


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Which is an interesting point; makes you wonder if there were legal consequences to any strategy that might have involved significant numbers of BP PPCs being told to stand down?


I don't think they've been stood up yet in most (any?) cases, so I doubt it.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't think they've been stood up yet in most (any?) cases, so I doubt it.


No, the official nomination deadline is still someway off, but I was speculating about their internal processes and considerations...particularly as they seem to operate like a business. Wouldn't mind betting that their lawyers had something to say about the prospect of standing down folk who'd already paid handsomely and 'entered into a contract' with the business.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> No, the official nomination deadline is still someway off, but I was speculating about their internal processes and considerations...particularly as they seem to operate like a business. Wouldn't mind betting that their lawyers had something to say about the prospect of standing down folk who'd already paid handsomely and 'entered into a contract' with the business.


november 14 apparently


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> No, the official nomination deadline is still someway off, but I was speculating about their internal processes and considerations...particularly as they seem to operate like a business. Wouldn't mind betting that their lawyers had something to say about the prospect of standing down folk who'd already paid handsomely and 'entered into a contract' with the business.


They haven't paid handsomely for a guaranteed seat to run in though - only to be considered.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anybody looking at odds? I only bet on big political events nowadays, might stick a few quid on hung with same balance of power (tories need DUP)



Best you'll get on a hung parliament is 11/10, and most bookies not even that. I got 9/2 on a Tory minority govt this morning though. 

Since Farage's announcement I was tempted by Labour as largest party, but since Farage's announcement that's gone from 7/1 to 5/1.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> They haven't paid handsomely for a guaranteed seat to run in though - only to be considered.


Bow to your greater knowledge on the matter; probably best to disregard my speculation.


----------



## killer b (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Bow to your greater knowledge on the matter; probably best to disregard my speculation.


CBA going to look but there was some consternation when they announced the fee for prospective MPs that anyone paying was doing so with no guarantee of seeing any kind of return.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Bow to your greater knowledge on the matter; probably best to disregard my speculation.


don't know what you're doing on urban with an attitude like that


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I doubt the BPs vetting process will be any better than UKIP's, so a good few dv cases, a solid phalanx of facebook racists along with a smattering of Paul Nuttall level weirdos and fantasists.



The MEPs were a lot saner than past UKIP fruit loops (not saying much) but there's going to be a lot more MPs than those so we'll have exciting reveals to look forward to.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> don't know what you're doing on urban with an attitude like that


----------



## hash tag (Nov 1, 2019)

I wonder, could I crowd fund to raise a deposit?


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 1, 2019)

hash tag said:


> I wonder, could I crowd fund to raise a deposit?



And then not mention brexit at all in your campaign.  Just run on a hyper local issue like maintenance of the trees on Grove Avenue.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 1, 2019)

Not sure I know Grove Avenue. Could I not campaign on an anti Johnson ticket


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> The MEPs were a lot saner than past UKIP fruit loops (not saying much) but there's going to be a lot more MPs than those so we'll have exciting reveals to look forward to.


Yep and to be honest, there is a bit less of a fruitloopish feel to the BP generally (ditto, not saying much). But yeah, if they do have to select 650 or so candidates, what the fuck will the 650th one be like?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 1, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Best you'll get on a hung parliament is 11/10, and most bookies not even that. I got 9/2 on a Tory minority govt this morning though.
> 
> Since Farage's announcement I was tempted by Labour as largest party, but since Farage's announcement that's gone from 7/1 to 5/1.



UPDATE. I've now lumped on both Labour as largest party and Tory minority govt so provided no one actually wins a majority I should hopefully make a profit either way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yep and to be honest, there is a bit less of a fruitloopish feel to the BP generally (ditto, not saying much). But yeah, if they do have to select 650 or so candidates, what the fuck will the 650th one be like?


they haven't done anything yet. the fruitloopery will soon become apparent


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Gotta say, it's quite amusing to see how 'Spartans' like Francois, Baker etc. are bleating about Farage; almost as though the ERG don't like being ERGed.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Gotta say, it's quite amusing to see how 'Spartans' like Francois, Baker etc. are bleating about Farage; almost as though the ERG don't like being ERGed.



Worried I reckon.  Though Francois appears to have at best a fingernail grip on reality so probably not much to be gained from understanding where he is coming from.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Gotta say, it's quite amusing to see how 'Spartans' like Francois, Baker etc. are bleating about Farage; almost as though the ERG don't like being ERGed.



Delightful. 

You've got to feel a sort of reluctant admiration for Farage I think. 

Spartans: "C'mon Nigel, if you spoil the vote for us Corbyn might be PM and they'll probably cancel Brexit."

Farage: "MY show, MY cash cow, bitches."


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Delightful.
> 
> You've got to feel a sort of reluctant admiration for Farage I think.
> 
> Spartans: "C'mon Nigel, if you spoil the vote for us Corbyn might be PM and they'll probably cancel Brexit."



If Farage pulls off what millions of remoan loons were unable to the irony-meter would explode.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If Farage pulls off what millions of remoan loons were unable to the irony-meter would explode.



An outcome that he would, of course, claim justified the continuation of his personal, political project.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> An outcome that he would, of course, claim justified the continuation of his personal, political project.



Even for a man of his talents persuading people to support a new crusade to overturn his own hubris would be a stretch.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> If Farage pulls off what millions of remoan loons were unable to the irony-meter would explode.


This may have been his long term plan. He's really a modest and quietly spoken feller, with deeply held socialist convictions. It's been hell for him playing this deep cover braying fuckwit for the last 30 years.


----------



## maomao (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> An outcome that he would, of course, claim justified the continuation of his personal, political project.


And guarantee him an income for many years to come. Who would need a Farage after a disappointing or even a catastrophic Brexit?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

maomao said:


> And guarantee him an income for many years to come. Who would need a Farage after a disappointing or even a catastrophic Brexit?



A speaking tour of the European lowlands beckons....


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Even for a man of his talents persuading people to support a new crusade to overturn his own hubris would be a stretch.


Indeed; though I'd imagine that he & his goons would probably not quite frame it in those exact terms!


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2019)

For some reason, talk of braying fuckwits, that reminds me: where's Galloway? Surely time for him to choose a particular ethnic group and mould a quest for personal aggrandisment around their concerns.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Indeed; though I'd imagine that he & his goons would probably not quite frame it in those exact terms!



They can frame it how they like - as Labour candidates win leave seats with 35% of the vote the sounds of pennies dropping will alert even their most cloth eared fan to what the faux man of the people has done. Delicious.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> For some reason, talk of braying fuckwits, that reminds me: where's Galloway? Surely time for him to choose a particular ethnic group and mould a quest for personal aggrandisment around their concerns.



He standing here isn't he? Against Tom Watson.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 1, 2019)

Wasn't he trying to get into the brexit party or did I dream that


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> They can frame it how they like - as Labour candidates win leave seats with 35% of the vote the sounds of pennies dropping will alert even their most cloth eared fan to what the faux man of the people has done. Delicious.


All delicious, yes...a potential win, win win situation if ever there were one. Just seeing Marco Gino go through the shades of red as he found out this morning was a win in itself!


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wasn't he trying to get into the brexit party or did I dream that


He certainly tried to get in for the Euros and got knocked back by farage. This town ain't big enough for the both of us gobshites type thing.


----------



## belboid (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He standing here isn't he? Against Tom Watson.


yup, as an 'independent pro-jeremy corbyn pro-brexit' candidate

Or at least that's what he said in July


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 1, 2019)

Imagine voting for Galloway


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Imagine voting for Galloway



You're too late, Halloween was yesterday.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Imagine voting for Galloway


No chance. What if he ended up winning an election inside my mind?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 1, 2019)

Raheem said:


> No chance. What if he ended up winning an election inside my mind?


You'd have fedora sticking out of both ears


----------



## teuchter (Nov 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He standing here isn't he?


On urban75?


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> On urban75?



Its Friday evening.  Few here are standing.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> On urban75?


Thread opportunity; the _right (dis)honourable member for U75_!
Who would you vote for?


----------



## belboid (Nov 1, 2019)

Ed is up for class war


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Thread opportunity; the _right (dis)honourable member for U75_!
> Who would you vote for?


farmerbarleymow

He has always had delusions of grandeur


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> This may have been his long term plan. He's really a modest and quietly spoken feller, with deeply held socialist convictions. It's been hell for him playing this deep cover braying fuckwit for the last 30 years.



is it time to post this again?

Nigel Farage ‘just a comic creation that got out of hand’


----------



## teuchter (Nov 1, 2019)

I'd be happy to vote for George Galloway and have him represent urban75 in Parliament.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2019)

I wish he’d re-release Annie’s Song.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 1, 2019)

Wait did the real Ed Miliband account say "FFS"? that's amazing


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Wait did the real Ed Miliband account say "FFS"? that's amazing


He thinks it stands for full face sandwich


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Wait did the real Ed Miliband account say "FFS"? that's amazing


Yes, he says ffs irl too, he'd never say fuck


----------



## Flavour (Nov 1, 2019)

Get him back in as Labour leader after corbyn loses this election I say, I've had a change of heart. Go Ed!


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> He thinks it stands for full face sandwich


sharp for a Friday at beer o'clock


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I'd be happy to vote for George Galloway and have him represent urban75 in Parliament.


Yeh let's have gg back, offering attractive young women jobs on the basis of five minutes acquaintance, he's a dirty auld man

Let's have him back doing all the shitty things he did as the RUC mp, when he was to be found anywhere apart from parliament 

Not surprised you'd back Galloway, you probably find all the shit he's done politically attractive


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 1, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I'd be happy to vote for George Galloway and have him represent urban75 in Parliament.


You're in a minority. Ironically.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 1, 2019)

Farage calls on Johnson to 'build Leave alliance'

Brexit power pact?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Farage calls on Johnson to 'build Leave alliance'
> 
> Brexit power pact?


Your story is auld news


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 1, 2019)

maomao said:


> And guarantee him an income for many years to come. Who would need a Farage after a disappointing or even a catastrophic Brexit?



House of Lords, probably. Put him out to grass.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> House of Lords, probably. Put him out to grass.


Put him put to wander the earth with the mark of cain branded on his face


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 1, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yep and to be honest, there is a bit less of a fruitloopish feel to the BP generally (ditto, not saying much). But yeah, if they do have to select 650 or so candidates, what the fuck will the 650th one be like?



Can they re-use the MEPs? If not then they’ve already used up some of their top talent. An even sparser barrel to scrape. 

They’ll probably get Richard Tice standing in about 50 seats wearing a different disguise for each, only to be unmasked Scooby Doo style in one of them. He’ll be at every count in hologram form.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 1, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Can they re-use the MEPs?


Legally, yes.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Legally, yes.



But, if they get elected as an MP, they have to stand down as an MEP.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, if they get elected as an MP, they have to stand down as an MEP.


That’s fine though because it’s after 31st October.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 1, 2019)

I expect to see more of this in the next six weeks.





> In 2015 the government pledged to add an extra 5,000 doctors, including trainees, to the GP workforce by 2020 – based on the latest September data it still has 5,460 posts to go.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 1, 2019)

Goodwin highlighting the potentially soft nature of LD support. What with this & Farage's ego being realised...seems like a surprisingly positive day for Labour?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Goodwin highlighting the potentially soft nature of LD support. What with this & Farage's ego being realised...seems like a surprisingly positive day for Labour?
> 
> View attachment 188802


Only six weeks till this part of the nightmare's over


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wasn't he trying to get into the brexit party or did I dream that



He was. They didn't want him. They've learnt from the UKIP experience and are vetting candidates far more rigorously.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Only six weeks till this part of the nightmare's over



Nup. We get a 6-9 month referendum campaign and vote if the remoan coalition wins.


----------



## rutabowa (Nov 2, 2019)

could this be the first ever party political election song to be a total banger? (i guess with ld's history there wont be an official endorsement though). its def better than those guys doing "humorous" singalong songs to suppport jeremy corbyn a few years ago.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Nup. We get a 6-9 month referendum campaign and vote if the remoan coalition wins.


That's the next part of the nightmare


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 2, 2019)

most likley option is hung parliament. Could have tories biggest party but with lib/lab/SNP big enough to form a majority - but lib dem shit housery preventing corbyn becoming PM. 2020 election and brexit extension to march 31.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> most likley option is hung parliament. Could have tories biggest party but with lib/lab/SNP big enough to form a majority - but lib dem shit housery preventing corbyn becoming PM. 2020 election and brexit extension to march 31.



Yes. A good option would be just keep having  elections and referendums until people finally snap, put the lot against the wall and decide to run things themselves


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> most likley option is hung parliament. Could have tories biggest party but with lib/lab/SNP big enough to form a majority - but lib dem shit housery preventing corbyn becoming PM. 2020 election and brexit extension to march 31.


Would be quite happy with the chaos continuing, no end in sight, let them eat themselves


----------



## maomao (Nov 2, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Would be quite happy with the chaos continuing, no end in sight, let them eat themselves


Was thinking this myself. The most pleasing result all round would be no change whatsoever.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 2, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> most likley option is hung parliament. Could have tories biggest party but with lib/lab/SNP big enough to form a majority - but lib dem shit housery preventing corbyn becoming PM. 2020 election and brexit extension to march 31.


Johnson has burnt his bridges with the DUP so there isn't anyone else left to make friends with. If the so-called Rainbow Coalition is a possibility then it will happen, for all McDonnell's (rather than Corbyn) and Swinson's talk of not forming alliances, they're politicians and want power so something will be worked out.
Both the SNP and the LD will need buying off but allowing Holyrood the power to call Indyref(s) whenever it wants rather than having to ask Westminster and a 2nd Ref (Labour policy anyway) will be enough.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 2, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Would be quite happy with the chaos continuing, no end in sight, let them eat themselves



The inertia has certainly not been worse than what came before. The Tories have been distracted from enacting new ways to fuck with everyone and despite Brexiteer wet dreams the country barely batted an eyelid at the 31st passing by without leaving.


----------



## andysays (Nov 2, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I'd be happy to vote for George Galloway and have him represent urban75 in Parliament.


I hope you would at least check that he has a proper lock on his bathroom door first


----------



## MrSki (Nov 2, 2019)

There must be something uncomfortable in the report for Johnson otherwise it would get published.


----------



## binka (Nov 2, 2019)

maomao said:


> Was thinking this myself. The most pleasing result all round would be no change whatsoever.


Roughly no change would be very funny but it would be even better if the Tories lost a dozen or so and all those lib dem defectors got booted out. Maybe labour can gain ten to keep Corbyn in for another go round


----------



## maomao (Nov 2, 2019)

binka said:


> Roughly no change would be very funny but it would be even better if the Tories lost a dozen or so and all those lib dem defectors got booted out. Maybe labour can gain ten to keep Corbyn in for another go round


Something really annoying like five less Tories and two less DUP. Just so the remainers can't turn up and cancel A50 but Johnson remains absolutely fucked.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 2, 2019)

Something that puts Corbyn in no.10. Anything less than that is just shit, and may well mark a point at which everything starts getting even worse.  

I've no doubt he'll be a disappointment in power, but it would be a thing to see after the fucking shitcunts who've been made PM for decades.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 2, 2019)

Huge boost for Brexit as ‘People’s Vote’ campaign civil war explodes with legal threats.



> THE civil war which has enveloped the anti-Brexit ‘People’s Vote’ campaign intensified on Friday with threats of legal action from employees and accusations of intimidation


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 2, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> The inertia has certainly not been worse than what came before. The Tories have been distracted from enacting new ways to fuck with everyone and despite Brexiteer wet dreams the country barely batted an eyelid at the 31st passing by without leaving.


The nearest thing to public disorder round here was the number of kids knocking on the door to extort sweets out of us.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 2, 2019)

So we're still in the EU and Boris is not in a ditch. That's the opposite of what I wanted.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> So we're still in the EU and Boris is not in a ditch. That's the opposite of what I wanted.


Nor indeed _dead..._given that he didn't _do._


----------



## gosub (Nov 2, 2019)

S☼I said:


> So we're still in the EU and Boris is not in a ditch. That's the opposite of what I wanted.



Ah!   One of those cake and eat it types


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 3, 2019)

Horribly cynical this, chuck a few pennies at the poorest that even by usual standards you've brutalised for a decade because it's an election, cunts

BBC News - Benefits freeze to end in 2020, government confirms
Benefits freeze to end in 2020, government says


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 3, 2019)

Farage has announced he'll not be standing in the election. 

Shame, it would have been nice to see him lose again.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 3, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Horribly cynical this, chuck a few pennies at the poorest that even by usual standards you've brutalised for a decade because it's an election, cunts
> 
> BBC News - Benefits freeze to end in 2020, government confirms
> Benefits freeze to end in 2020, government says


I expect a Tory "promise" of shit loads of spending in all areas


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 3, 2019)

The govt (regardless of who they are) has an automatic advantage in that they can do stuff rather than just say stuff but the short notice this time means their options other than probably empty promises is limited.
There is absolutely nothing stopping them from raising benefits in 2020 only to bang another freeze on in 2021 
I don't think this will win them many votes and let's face it anyone on benefits who votes Tory because they have been given a few extra crumbs just this once really is beyond help


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I expect a Tory "promise" of shit loads of spending in all areas



It’s that 2010 Lib Dem strategy again, when they’re forced into a coalition post-election suddenly all promises vapourise and it’ll be back to ‘tough choices’ again.


----------



## maomao (Nov 3, 2019)

It's fair enough for then to run to govern the country. A platform of 'please be a hung parliament so we might get a couple of ministerial cars out of it' or 'vote for us to let the Tories in' would get them even less votes than they'll get anyway.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 3, 2019)

Just think of the money! Clegg who was against this once upon a time is now strangely for it.

Facebook will allow UK election candidates to run false ads  - CNN


----------



## Badgers (Nov 3, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Just think of the money! Clegg who was against this once upon a time is now strangely for it.
> 
> Facebook will allow UK election candidates to run false ads  - CNN


A libdem going back on their principles


----------



## brogdale (Nov 3, 2019)

A reasonably sensible account of attempting to use polling to predict seat outcomes on _Political Betting _. Author concludes:


> _If I had to guess, I’d now predict a Tory majority of 15-30 overall, but anything from 60 to minus 30 and a Labour minority government looks perfectly credible. Do your own research, but despite the feverish atmosphere I’d bet against larger changes either way._


----------



## MrSki (Nov 3, 2019)

Remember to read the smallprint.  Fucking cheek of it.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 3, 2019)

They have no shame.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 3, 2019)

scum


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 3, 2019)

Ceausescu offered to increase wages by 20% during his final public appeareance in Bucharest. Thtat worked out well for him. lets hope these election  handouts get a similar response


----------



## brogdale (Nov 3, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> They have no shame.


----------



## belboid (Nov 3, 2019)

Another Tory MP quits.

Tory MP quits after 'grope' claim by Labour MP


----------



## kenny g (Nov 3, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Ceausescu offered to increase wages by 20% during his final public appeareance in Bucharest. Thtat worked out well for him. lets hope these election  handouts get a similar response


Minus the helicopter.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 3, 2019)

Jeremy Corbyn has written to me personally and asked me to write his manifesto for him:
***
Dear Kabbes

*We could have a Labour Government by Christmas!*

The General Election on 12 December gives us all a once-in-a-generation chance for real change in this country. In the coming weeks we will be publishing our election manifesto setting out our proposals.

*Labour is a movement, and our strength comes from us all working together. That's why I want to hear your priorities for our manifesto.*

Help write our manifesto today
How do you think we can best tackle the climate and environmental emergency, or rebuild our public services? How can we end the scourge of poverty, or create a world of peace and human rights? Share your thoughts now, and together we'll make our movement even stronger.

***

What suggestions shall I give?


----------



## Supine (Nov 3, 2019)

Suggest he shows some leadership and sets out a manifesto himself?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 3, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Jeremy Corbyn has written to me personally and asked me to write his manifestation for him:
> ***
> Dear Kabbes
> 
> ...



Strict enforcement of any previous ditch-based commitments.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 3, 2019)

kabbes said:


> What suggestions shall I give?


Tell him to read some Marx. People call him as Marxist, so he may as well start being one.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2019)

He asked me as well, the cheapskate. This is some sort of crowdsourcing con job if you ask me. Listen pal, you write the manifesto and then we'll decide whether we want to vote for it, that's how this works*, and hire proper copywriters for a fair wage.

* NB has not worked like that pretty much forever


----------



## JimW (Nov 3, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He asked me as well, the cheapskate. This is some sort of crowdsourcing con job if you ask me. Listen pal, you write the manifesto and then we'll decide whether we want to vote for it, that's how this works*, and hire proper copywriters for a fair wage.
> 
> * NB has not worked like that pretty much forever


Just bill them for the work.


----------



## Beermoth (Nov 3, 2019)

Here's hoping...

'He’s got a battle on his hands': could Uxbridge unseat Boris Johnson?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 3, 2019)

Beermoth said:


> Here's hoping...
> 
> 'He’s got a battle on his hands': could Uxbridge unseat Boris Johnson?


Now this would beyond funny into outright hysterical, especially if the Tories won a majority. The power struggles would be glorious to behold


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 3, 2019)

I didn't get asked, rude cunt. I think I'm still classed as an affiliated member or whatever they call people in affiliated unions too


----------



## mauvais (Nov 3, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I didn't get asked, rude cunt. I think I'm still classed as an affiliated member or whatever they call people in affiliated unions too


I'm one of those and I got asked. I have heard on the grapevine that your manifesto ideas are particularly shit though, IDK if maybe that's it?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 3, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I'm one of those and I got asked. I have heard on the grapevine that your manifesto ideas are particularly shit though, IDK if maybe that's it?


Can't argue with that really. I was just going to propose introducing more violent rhetoric


----------



## mauvais (Nov 3, 2019)

I've told him I want (a) power at all levels of government to be devolved to local decision makers, and (b) Radio 4 to be shut down immediately.


----------



## Gerry1time (Nov 3, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Jeremy Corbyn has written to me personally and asked me to write his manifesto for him:
> ***
> Dear Kabbes
> 
> ...



They're not asking you to write the manifesto. They wouldn't anyway, but especially not with a shadow cabinet that divided. They're just asking you to send them your personal policy preferences so they can then target you with personalised follow up messages they think you'll like so you'll vote for them.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 3, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> They're not asking you to write the manifesto. They wouldn't anyway, but especially not with a shadow cabinet that divided. They're just asking you to send them your personal policy preferences so they can then target you with personalised follow up messages they think you'll like so you'll vote for them.


So, if I wrote saying I wanted free Bishop's Finger, they'd get back to me saying they'd do that?
Sound's like a winner to me.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 3, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So, if I wrote saying I wanted free Bishop's Finger, they'd get back to me saying they'd do that?
> Sound's like a winner to me.


No, they'd have an algorithm telling them that people who prioritise free Bishop's Finger also support renationalisation of the railways.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 3, 2019)

Raheem said:


> No, they'd have an algorithm telling them that people who prioritise free Bishop's Finger also support renationalisation of the railways.


Yikes!
Just in time Raheem ...I was just about to click the "Yes, I'll join" button!


----------



## Gerry1time (Nov 3, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So, if I wrote saying I wanted free Bishop's Finger, they'd get back to me saying they'd do that?
> Sound's like a winner to me.



They’ll probably just suggest that Shepherd Neame would be better as a nationalised industry. It appears that’s pretty much the only message they’ve got for this election.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 3, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> They’ll probably just suggest that Shepherd Neame would be better as a nationalised industry. It appears that’s pretty much the only message they’ve got for this election.


_Corbyn's Finger; the people's pint._


----------



## Raheem (Nov 3, 2019)

brogdale said:


> _Corbyn's Finger; the people's pint._


Half-litre. May as well be open about it.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 3, 2019)

I support compulsory maths lessons up to age 30.  What will that make them target me on?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Nov 3, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So, if I wrote saying I wanted free Bishop's Finger, they'd get back to me saying they'd do that?
> Sound's like a winner to me.



Judging by the taste of that stuff I shudder to think where that bishop's finger has been.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 3, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Judging by the taste of that stuff I shudder to think where that bishop's finger has been.


Er...what?
Named after (pointing) signposts on the pilgrim's way btw.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 3, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Farage has announced he'll not be standing in the election.
> 
> Shame, it would have been nice to see him lose again.


HUGE vote of no confidence in his own party


----------



## Gerry1time (Nov 3, 2019)

brogdale said:


> _Corbyn's Finger; the people's pint._



Along with the launch of a new beer that will be carefully designed for everyone to like up and down the country, or at least designed so that no-one will find it too objectionable, to the point that everyone goes off and consumes different, more distinctive, beers instead. Ones that better suit their own specific outlook on beer. I imagine the new beer will be called 'Magic Grandpa'.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 3, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> Along with the launch of a new beer that will be carefully designed for everyone to like up and down the country, or at least designed so that no-one will find it too objectionable, to the point that everyone goes off and consumes different, more distinctive, beers instead. Ones that better suit their own specific outlook on beer. I imagine the new beer will be called 'Magic Grandpa'.


_Leamain Ale 4.8%
Reave Bitter 5.2%
_


----------



## ThirtyFootSmurf (Nov 4, 2019)

brogdale said:


> _Leamain Ale 4.8%
> Reave Bitter 5.2%_




Not sure it's worth breaking a near decade long lurk for this, but sadly those really are a thing:







Although they're both at 3.7%, so they missed a trick there.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 4, 2019)

ThirtyFootSmurf said:


> Not sure it's worth breaking a near decade long lurk for this, but sadly those really are a thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pint of AB for me, then!


----------



## tim (Nov 4, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Now this would beyond funny into outright hysterical, especially if the Tories won a majority. The power struggles would be glorious to behold


He'll move to a safer seat and let someone else get trounced in Uxbridge.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 4, 2019)

ThirtyFootSmurf said:


> Not sure it's worth breaking a near decade long lurk for this, but sadly those really are a thing:
> 
> 
> 
> Although they're both at 3.7%, so they missed a trick there.



thought having the "remain" beer be the "bitter" would have made more sense tbh.


----------



## andysays (Nov 4, 2019)

tim said:


> He'll move to a safer seat and let someone else get trounced in Uxbridge.


I'd be very surprised if he did that, not least because it will make him look like a bottler


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'd be very surprised if he did that, not least because it will make him look like a bottler



He may consider it's better to look like a bottler than be an actual loser.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'd be very surprised if he did that, not least because it will make him look like a bottler


Would certainly send a message about his/their expectation of swing/blustercunt's real 'appeal'.


----------



## andysays (Nov 4, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Would certainly send a message about his/their expectation of swing/blustercunt's real 'appeal'.


Exactly. It wouldn't just make him look like a bottler personally,  it would provide all the opposition parties with a big stick to beat the Tories. 

Plus, it's actually not necessary because he isn't going to lose in Uxbridge, much though I'd like to see that.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 4, 2019)

I guess what a close-ish contest in Uxbridge might do is force him to go and do some actual campaigning there. He probably doesn't want to be doing that, especially as it might end up with him having to deal with some members of the public in an uncontrolled situation.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> E
> Plus, it's actually not necessary because he isn't going to lose in Uxbridge, much though I'd like to see that.



Yep, can't see where Lab could possibly pick up votes from; the yellow vermin only got 4% in 2017.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 4, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I've told him I want (a) power at all levels of government to be devolved to local decision makers, and (b) Radio 4 to be shut down immediately.



Given the 'local decision makers' we've got round here, so crooked they can see the backs of their own heads, this policy is a vote loser for me.

And I don't give a shit about Radio 4, as Radio 3 is now my soothing RP background noise of choice.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 4, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Given the 'local decision makers' we've got round here, so crooked they can see the backs of their own heads, this policy is a vote loser for me.
> 
> And I don't give a shit about Radio 4, as Radio 3 is now my soothing RP background noise of choice.


BBC Radio 4 - Wikipedia


> The station is the UK's national broadcaster in times of national emergency such as war, due to the wide coverage of the Droitwich signal: if all other radio stations were forced to close, it would carry on broadcasting. It has been claimed that the commanders of nuclear-armed submarines believing that Britain had suffered nuclear attack were required to check if they could still receive Radio 4 on 198 long wave, and if they could not they would open sealed orders that might authorise a retaliatory strike.


----------



## Santino (Nov 4, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yep, can't see where Lab could possibly pick up votes from; the yellow vermin only got 4% in 2017.


Labour (indeed, anyone) can pick up thousands of voters from the influential 'didn't vote' demographic.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 4, 2019)

Santino said:


> Labour (indeed, anyone) can pick up thousands of voters from the influential 'didn't vote' demographic.


True enough, but & 67% the U&SR turnout was pretty much bang on the national average for the 2017 GE; I suppose it could be significantly higher this time...but I've not seen many predicting much higher turnouts for the 2019?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 4, 2019)

brogdale said:


> True enough, but & 67% the U&SR turnout was pretty much bang on the national average for the 2017 GE; I suppose it could be significantly higher this time...but I've not seen many predicting much higher turnouts for the 2019?


I've never seen a convincing explanation as to why UK youth voter turnout is so low compared to most other countries. The initial stories about youth turnout being sharply up in 2017 turned out to be overstated. It remains a potential nut for someone to crack.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

Whichever way we look at this, it's dark news.

I'm well aware Boris Johnson is a dick of the worst kind, but he's grabbing votes for the tories and that means things are looking bad. At least the brexit party are having problems, so there's some bright side.
I really hope this turns around, but it might be a mess.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

One thing is clear, the Labour party must dump Corbyn or suffer until they do. It's looking a lot like he's gifting Brexit to the Tories, and badly damaging the party while he's on the go.
I loved it when May was in charge - she was really crap and almost sabotaged Brexit without any help.
I was sad when she left number 10, a lot more so when that bastard moved in.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2019)

which bland centrist from the fucking clone factory meets the approval of Donald Trooooomp ? Would it be Yvette Cooper maybe? Perhaps the craggy yet patrician features of Kier Starmer?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> which bland centrist from the fucking clone factory meets the approval of Donald Trooooomp ? Would it be Yvette Cooper maybe? Perhaps the craggy yet patrician features of Kier Starmer?



Swinson, I suspect.


----------



## Cid (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Whichever way we look at this, it's dark news.
> 
> I'm well aware Boris Johnson is a dick of the worst kind, but he's grabbing votes for the tories and that means things are looking bad. At least the brexit party are having problems, so there's some bright side.
> I really hope this turns around, but it might be a mess.



Yougov have labour a couple of percentage points up on that, but not what you'd call significant.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 4, 2019)

I think the Brexit Party is self imploding   Seeing the Farage getting a lot of stick about not running for parliament - their vote share in opinion polls is now hovering around 10%, hopefully that will decrease still further. Despite saying they would field 650, they are now not standing in NI - I was looking forward to that   . They were obsessed with the Labour Leave vote, thinking that 5m? Labour Leave voters would clearly vote for them   I think Labour Leave voters may want some sort of Brexit, but they are not going to want batshit crazy Brexit Party MPs.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

I hope the polls are well out, they have been in the past, but it looks bad because most seem to be about the same.
Johnson seems to be the big reason, regardless of how crappy that is and what it says about tory voters.


----------



## Cid (Nov 4, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I think the Brexit Party is self imploding   Seeing the Farage getting a lot of stick about not running for parliament - their vote share in opinion polls is now hovering around 10%, hopefully that will decrease still further. Despite saying they would field 650, they are now not standing in NI - I was looking forward to that   . They were obsessed with the Labour Leave vote, thinking that 5m? Labour Leave voters would clearly vote for them   I think Labour Leave voters may want some sort of Brexit, but they are not going to want batshit crazy Brexit Party MPs.



Yougov above has them down to 7% as of Nov 1st.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I think the Brexit Party is self imploding   Seeing the Farage getting a lot of stick about not running for parliament - .



I'm really happy to see this, but their votes seem to have mostly gone back to the blasted tories.
As for Farage, need I say what I think of that twat?


----------



## maomao (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> need I say what I think of that twat?


No, you're fine mate.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> One thing is clear, the Labour party must dump Corbyn or suffer until they do. It's looking a lot like he's gifting Brexit to the Tories, and badly damaging the party while he's on the go.



Leaving aside the fact that dumping a leader 6 weeks before an election is insane, what exactly would this new leader need to do to reverse Labour's position? 

Take your time.....


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

Corbyn must go, but it's too late for this election and, sadly, probably Britain staying in the EU.
I know a lot on this forum like him, but I think he's a serious dickhead that is giving Brexit to the fucking tories.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Corbyn must go, but it's too late for this election and, sadly, probably Britain staying in the EU.
> I know a lot on this forum like him, but I think he's a serious dickhead that is giving Brexit to the fucking tories.



Thanks. 

Leaving aside the fact that dumping a leader 6 weeks before an election is insane, what exactly would this new leader need to do to reverse Labour's position?

Take your time.....


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Corbyn must go, but it's too late for this election and, sadly, probably Britain staying in the EU.
> I know a lot on this forum like him, but I think he's a serious dickhead that is giving Brexit to the fucking tories.


you don't seem to follow the news. or if you do, you don't seem to understand it.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leaving aside the fact that dumping a leader 6 weeks before an election is insane, what exactly would this new leader need to do to reverse Labour's position?
> 
> Take your time.....



Tough one, but not being a useless idiot like Corbyn would be a good start. With May gone he hasn't got a hope of anything because only that inept tory idiot kept his numbers up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Tough one, but not being a useless idiot like Corbyn would be a good start. With May gone he hasn't got a hope of anything because only that inept tory idiot kept his numbers up.


you seem determined to force everyone to consider you a fool


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't seem to follow the news. or if you do, you don't seem to understand it.



Given I'm quoting polls that show Labour way down and Corbyn very unpopular, this suggesting the tories are likely to win and get Brexit through, I suggest you're a pointless wanker without a clue .. or just trolling again.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Corbyn must go, but it's too late for this election and, sadly, probably Britain staying in the EU.
> I know a lot on this forum like him, but I think he's a serious dickhead that is giving Brexit to the fucking tories.


He may not be the most remain-y of remainers - but has played a clever game - he had left it to the Tories to fuck themselves again over the EU - and the current Labour policy - renegotiate the WA, and have a referendum on the deal with a remain option  - is a sensible proposal - keeps remainers (mostly) on side - doesn't piss off labour brexiters too much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Given I'm quoting polls that show Labour way down and Corbyn very unpopular, this suggesting the tories are likely to win and get Brexit through, I suggest you're a pointless wanker without a clue .. or just trolling again.


there is of course only one poll that matters, and your focussing on polls which have been taken before manifestos have been published or indeed candidates declared suggests you're coming unarmed - once more - to a battle of wits.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Tough one, but not being a useless idiot like Corbyn would be a good start. With May gone he hasn't got a hope of anything because only that inept tory idiot kept his numbers up.



In your opinion who in Labour's ranks is not a useless idiot? Who can stop the rot?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

Ignoring reality is the best way of fucking up in an even more spectacular way than is on the cards at the moment.
I want to tories down to shit all, Brexit forgotten, and a Labour PM sitting in No 10, but it doesn't look like I'm going to see any if that unless something drastic happens.
Not dumping Corbyn when May left was a massive mistake, and one that'a likely to cost the UK a lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Ignoring reality is the best way of fucking up in an even more spectacular way than is on the cards at the moment.
> I want to tories down to shit all, Brexit forgotten, and a Labour PM sitting in No 10, but it doesn't look like I'm going to see any if that unless something drastic happens.
> Not dumping Corbyn when May left was a massive mistake, and one that'a likely to cost the UK a lot.


do you honestly think that there was the desire for another leadership contest in the labour party in the summer?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 4, 2019)

Dumping Corbyn for whom, though? You seem light on the detail.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you seem determined to force everyone to consider you a fool



Also, idiotic infighting is messing the job up. It's great for the tories, but not helpful to Labour. We can see Corbyn is a very unpopular politician with no personality, but it's almost like some in the Labour ranks want to destroy the party and will do anything they can to see it happen.
If, and I hope this doesn't happen, the Labour party get hammered at the polls, it's Corbyn's fault.

May leaving was the perfect time to ditch the useless bugger as a change of leadership could have been put down to new needs, but the silly sod hung on and it's likely to be costly in far too many ways.


----------



## Cid (Nov 4, 2019)

It's such a shame that Owen Smith was forced out. Such a shame.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 4, 2019)

Cid said:


> It's such a shame that Owen Smith was forced out. Such a shame.


And then before that, they chose the wrong Milliband. Wasted opportunities.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Not dumping Corbyn when May left was a massive mistake, and one that'a likely to cost the UK a lot.



Who for?
How does he/she stop the rot you've identified?


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2019)

this is it, for all the talk of dumping him, how exactly was that supposed to happen? It was tried, more than once. Through coup, through open challenge.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> do you honestly think that there was the desire for another leadership contest in the labour party in the summer?



If there was no such feeling, the Corbyn and the PLP didn't read the electorate. Corbyn should have stepped down with grace and left the field open for someone not useless, but it didn't happen.
Johnson moving into No10 was a new challenge, one Corbyn had no clue how to handle, but he stayed anyway.
If Labour gets killed in the polls, that's where it started.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Also, idiotic infighting is messing the job up. It's great for the tories, but not helpful to Labour. We can see Corbyn is a very unpopular politician with no personality, but it's almost like some in the Labour ranks want to destroy the party and will do anything they can to see it happen.
> If, and I hope this doesn't happen, the Labour party get hammered at the polls, it's Corbyn's fault.
> 
> May leaving was the perfect time to ditch the useless bugger as a change of leadership could have been put down to new needs, but the silly sod hung on and it's likely to be costly in far too many ways.


yeh and if labour do really well at the polls it will doubtless be despite corbyn.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Corbyn should have stepped down with grace and left the field open for someone not useless, but it didn't happen.



Like who? Come on, just one name.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Like who? Come on, just one name.


he'll have to get his big book of labour politicians down from the shelf


----------



## elbows (Nov 4, 2019)

I'm going to assume that 'no personality' actually means the way they come across in mass media, and the absence of certain specific personality traits. 

Like John Major, Corbyn is said to do much better on the streets during an election campaign than any of this media shit would suggest.

Larger than life shitheads need not apply.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> he'll have to get his big book of labour politicians down from the shelf


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

There's still a month to go so time for things to change. However, it'll be people seeing though that tory twat that makes the difference, not Corbyn's leadership.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> There's still a month to go so time for things to change. However, it'll be people seeing though that tory twat that makes the difference, not Corbyn's leadership.


Hmmm. You set up a bullet-proof position that cannot be proved wrong. Win and it's not down to Corbyn. Lose and it's Corbyn's fault.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 4, 2019)

I think this is a big part of how corbynism happens. Because nothing makes me want to start posting corbyn memes and go labourite and ignore the misgivings quite like the apolitical dribble of anti corbyn labour types. 'Somebody less useless' like for instance any of those people who caused labour to lose half its voters and more importantly its natural constituency


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Also, idiotic infighting is messing the job up. It's great for the tories, but not helpful to Labour.



Idiotic infighting like, say, a leadership election during a General Election campaign? 

Either answer Smokeandsteam's question and indicate who you think Labour should have as their leader instead or please - and I really do mean please - shut the fuck up.

Honestly, your inane yammering is so stupifying I feel like I'm slipping into a coma every time I read your posts.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 4, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. You set up a bullet-proof position that cannot be proved wrong. Win and it's not down to Corbyn. Lose and it's Corbyn's fault.



The same thing - Corbyn is crap


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 4, 2019)

Four hours reading dickheads bang on about magic grandpa and how 1997 - 2010 was a golden age for social democracy and the working class because sure start and I temporarily forget about the mural and the shit swp meets charles kennedy politics and find my finger over the buy now button for one of those sadfuck arm john mcdonnell tshirts


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 4, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The same thing - Corbyn is crap


That makes no sense as a response to my post.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Four hours reading dickheads bang on about magic grandpa and how 1997 - 2010 was a golden age for social democracy and the working class because sure start and I temporarily forget about the mural and the shit swp meets charles kennedy politics and find my finger over the buy now button for one of those sadfuck arm john mcdonnell tshirts


I mostly want a Labour victory for the pleasure of watching all the worst people in the world having to tuck into a fresh plate of turds on the morning of Dec 13.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2019)

so people are trying to make cummings the kremlin man a thing. The paranoid style of modern libs.


----------



## tim (Nov 4, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Like who? Come on, just one name.


If I look resolutely pensive enough, it could be me!


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> farmerbarleymow
> 
> He has always had delusions of grandeur





I thought you always vote for the Blobfish party?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

Interesting developments in Northern Ireland.



> On Monday morning the SDLP confirmed it will not be contesting North Belfast, East Belfast and North Down. Deputy leader Nichola Mallon would not be drawn on if she would herself, or advise others, to vote Sinn Fein in the constituency.
> 
> "Given the reality of our political situation," she said, "We need to remove as much as possible the very toxic pro-Brexit, pro-Boris DUP MPs, who over their antics over the last two years have done nothing to represent the interests of the people of Northern Ireland."





> Sinn Fein has said it won't run candidates in three constituencies in the forthcoming December General Election.
> 
> The party urged Alliance to consider its anti-pact stance as it announced its decision not to stand candidates in South Belfast, East Belfast and North Down.



General Election: Sinn Fein pulls out of three constituencies in race for Westminster seats - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

tony blair weighs in Tony Blair accuses Jeremy Corbyn of Donald Trump-style 'populism' and backs tactical election voting | Daily Mail Online
at last he's worked out that if he says one thing people will generally do the opposite


----------



## Raheem (Nov 4, 2019)

Cid said:


> It's such a shame that Owen Smith was forced out. Such a shame.


I don't think a woman in labour has much choice, though.


----------



## andysays (Nov 4, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Interesting developments in Northern Ireland.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can some one clarify who is likely to benefit from those moves, because the article doesn't make that very clear.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> Can some one clarify who is likely to benefit from those moves, because the article doesn't make that very clear.



Inference seems to be that it's more about fucking the DUP.


----------



## andysays (Nov 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Inference seems to be that it's more about fucking the DUP.


Sorry if I'm being dim, but how would it fuck the DUP? Which party currently holds those seats?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> Can some one clarify who is likely to benefit from those moves, because the article doesn't make that very clear.



It's to fuck over the DUP, by not splitting the remain vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> Sorry if I'm being dim, but how would it fuck the DUP? Which party currently holds those seats?


what they're doing is putting up one 'unity' candidate to prevent the remain vote being split among the sdlp, sinn fein and the alliance party. so they're thinking their one candidate would have more votes than the dup candidate.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

andysays said:


> Sorry if I'm being dim, but how would it fuck the DUP? Which party currently holds those seats?



They are all DUP - apart from North Down, which is held by a former UUP member, now an Independent, who might stand down. I'm not sure about North Down as both the Shinners and Alliance seem not to be standing.


----------



## andysays (Nov 4, 2019)

Thanks all


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> what they're doing is putting up one 'unity' candidate to prevent the remain vote being split among the sdlp, sinn fein and the alliance party. so they're thinking their one candidate would have more votes than the dup candidate.



Ahhhh cheers Pickers - sorry was getting confused. So Alliance will challenge DUP in North Down.


----------



## maomao (Nov 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Idiotic infighting like, say, a leadership election during a General Election campaign?
> 
> Either answer Smokeandsteam's question and indicate who you think Labour should have as their leader instead or please - and I really do mean please - shut the fuck up.
> 
> Honestly, your inane yammering is so stupifying I feel like I'm slipping into a coma every time I read your posts.


If he plots up on this thread like he did on the Trump one we'll have to get a new thread or something.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

maomao said:


> If he plots up on this thread like he did on the Trump one we'll have to get a new thread or something.



Imagine having to abandon this thread. I mean, it's literally a key historical source for future generations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Pickers






two different posters


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 189037
> 
> View attachment 189038
> 
> two different posters



How come we've never seen you both in the same thread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> How come we've never seen you both in the same thread?


never seen you and zora on the same thread but i have no doubt you're different people


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> never seen you and zora on the same thread but i have no doubt you're different people



Right into my trap


----------



## MrSki (Nov 4, 2019)

What a surprise.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

MrSki said:


> What a surprise.




Nobody cares.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 4, 2019)

MrSki said:


> What a surprise.



Obviously focus grouped it and factored that any short-term 'reputational' harm is out-weighed by the medium term electoral damage limitation afforded by withholding.


----------



## JimW (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 189037
> 
> View attachment 189038
> 
> two different posters


You should just roll with it - look at their excellent likes-to-posts ratio


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2019)

Why are Sinn Fein pro remain?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Why are Sinn Fein pro remain?



Brexit


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Brexit





> Sinn Féin has argued that the only credible approach is for the north to be designated special status within the EU and for the whole island of Ireland to remain within the EU together. There is widespread support for such a position and it can be delivered in the Brexit negotiations. The EU has shown itself to be flexible in dealing with different forms of integration and different forms of relationships for member states and non-member states.



What's on offer in the current deal is not close enough to this, then


----------



## Wilf (Nov 4, 2019)

JimW said:


> You should just roll with it - look at their excellent likes-to-posts ratio


Whoa, just hold on a minute sunny, erm, Jim!  If you start merging Pickman's trophy points with those of his #2 account he'll not only join Club 443, he'll, gasp, have 3 more than me!  And nobody can _honestly _say he's a better poster than me. _Can they_?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 4, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Whoa, just hold on a minute sunny, erm, Jim!  If you start merging Pickman's trophy points with those of his #2 account he'll not only join Club 443, he'll, gasp, have 3 more than me!  And nobody can _honestly _say he's a better poster than me. _Can they_?



Pickers certainly isn't any better than you are.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

teuchter said:


> What's on offer in the current deal is not close enough to this, then



You should go on Mastermind.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 4, 2019)

MrSki said:


> What a surprise.




If only Grieve had access to like a photocopier and some envelopes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If only Grieve had access to like a photocopier and some envelopes.


or a network of computers through which he could share things


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> or a network of computers through which he could share things



Alright let's not get into the realms of the absurd.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 4, 2019)

Pffft, what does Rickets know about such matters :rollseyes:


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 4, 2019)

Lady Whooping Cough begs to differ.


----------



## JimW (Nov 4, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Whoa, just hold on a minute sunny, erm, Jim!  If you start merging Pickman's trophy points with those of his #2 account he'll not only join Club 443, he'll, gasp, have 3 more than me!  And nobody can _honestly _say he's a better poster than me. _Can they_?


I hold the perfidious trophy point system in complete contempt, because my unwillingness to receive birthday greetings has robbed me of a place on the leader board. One of the great injustices of modern times.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 4, 2019)

Let's face it, someone in this divided, embittered, fragmented government is going to leak the report, anyway, aren't  they?


----------



## maomao (Nov 4, 2019)

JimW said:


> I hold the perfidious trophy point system in complete contempt, because my unwillingness to receive birthday greetings has robbed me of a place on the leader board. One of the great injustices of modern times.


Just do first of January. The traditional birthday of all those who are asked their birthday by a computer but don't want to tell. Unless your birthday really is first of January.

Even then there'd be scum like me in the 443 club before you made it so wouldn't be properly exclusive anymore.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 4, 2019)

maomao said:


> Just do first of January. The traditional birthday of all those who are asked their birthday by a computer but don't want to tell. Unless your birthday really is first of January.


In which case do it anyway because we’d know.


----------



## JimW (Nov 4, 2019)

maomao said:


> Just do first of January. The traditional birthday of all those who are asked their birthday by a computer but don't want to tell. Unless your birthday really is first of January.


Thank you for the suggestion, but this is obviously a matter of vital principle and i cannot be seen to compromise my integrity in the struggle for justice.


----------



## maomao (Nov 4, 2019)

JimW said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, but this is obviously a matter of vital principle and i cannot be seen to compromise my integrity in the struggle for justice.


祝你生日快乐，无论哪天过的。


----------



## JimW (Nov 4, 2019)

maomao said:


> 祝你生日快乐，无论哪天过的。


欺人太甚！


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 4, 2019)

Nice and neutral of the BBC to have this as their main headline all morning. Aren’t civil servants supposed to be neutral, because there’s no way this statement meets that criteria.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Nice and neutral of the BBC to have this as their main headline all morning. Aren’t civil servants supposed to be neutral, because there’s no way this statement meets that criteria.
> 
> View attachment 189056



'Don't politicise health service' was directed at all parties, so seems neutral to me. 

Don't use NHS as political weapon - health bosses


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 4, 2019)

But for which party is the NHS their greatest strength? Hardly neutral to say it shouldn’t be in play. The run-down of services is tangible to everyone, and the party responsible for this does need challenging on it. They don’t get to dictate what issues can and can’t be raised.

I popped onto twitter for the first time in ages and there were a few tweets about the NHS that had been piled on by various bots/Turning Point weirdos quoting the same few stats in favour of the government, and a similar number of bots/racist twats claiming it was all due to immigration overloading the service. They know they’re vulnerable on this and want to close it down when raised.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 4, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> But for which party is the NHS their greatest strength? Hardly neutral to say it shouldn’t be in play. The run-down of services is tangible to everyone, and the party responsible for this does need challenging on it. They don’t get to dictate what issues can and can’t be raised.
> 
> I popped onto twitter for the first time in ages and there were a few tweets about the NHS that had been piled on by various bots/Turning Point weirdos quoting the same few stats in favour of the government, and a similar number of bots/racist twats claiming it was all due to immigration overloading the service. They know they’re vulnerable on this and want to close it down when raised.


Yes, it is utterly absurd to say that a government-funded service should not be an issue in an election. 

The key word in that, of course, is 'bosses'. It's not nurses or doctors saying it.


----------



## Cid (Nov 4, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> 'Don't politicise health service' was directed at all parties, so seems neutral to me.
> 
> Don't use NHS as political weapon - health bosses



This is coming from someone whose twitter handle is 'chrisCEOhopson'.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> But for which party is the NHS their greatest strength?



Ironically polls recently have shown Johnson & Corbyn neck & neck on who is most trusted on the NHS, and the latest Survation poll, bearing in mind they were the most accurate at calling the last 2 GE results, shows Johnson is slightly more trusted. 

 

https://www.survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/DM-Tables-Oct-30.pdf


----------



## belboid (Nov 4, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Ironically polls recently have shown Johnson & Corbyn neck & neck on who is most trusted on the NHS, and the latest Survation poll, bearing in mind they were the most accurate at calling the last 2 GE results, shows Johnson is slightly more trusted.
> 
> View attachment 189058
> 
> https://www.survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/DM-Tables-Oct-30.pdf


interesting they ask which party _leader _rather than the more usual which party. I bet you'd get quit a different answer if you just asked the latter


----------



## Cid (Nov 4, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, it is utterly absurd to say that a government-funded service should not be an issue in an election.
> 
> The key word in that, of course, is 'bosses'. It's not nurses or doctors saying it.



It's also not 'bosses', it's a boss of one part of the NHS, specifically the bit that negotiates between NHS trusts and the DoH.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 4, 2019)

During the Euro Elections or the Locals (can't remember which) My middle daughter opened the door to a Tory canvasser whilst wearing her nurse's uniform. 
When this individual started spouting, Middle told her, "You can see what I'm wearing right? Do you think I am going to vote for you?"


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 4, 2019)

Swinson is just making herself look like a prat and I suspect any judge is unlikely to show her much sympathy. The next PM is going to be either Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn. It could well be (especially if it's the latter) that they need the support of other party leaders to form a government but claiming she has any real chance of being the next PM is out and out delusional.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 4, 2019)

More to add to the list:


----------



## belboid (Nov 4, 2019)

teqniq said:


> More to add to the list:
> 
> View attachment 189066


it is very easy to make Swinson look like a petulant child


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Swinson is just making herself look like a prat and I suspect any judge is unlikely to show her much sympathy. The next PM is going to be either Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn. It could well be (especially if it's the latter) that they need the support of other party leaders to form a government but claiming she has any real chance of being the next PM is out and out delusional.



She's been claiming the move is sexist.

ETA - just beaten to it by teqniq


----------



## Badgers (Nov 4, 2019)

Are any LibDem members/voters still thinking she is a good leader or even politician?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 4, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Nice and neutral of the BBC to have this as their main headline all morning. Aren’t civil servants supposed to be neutral, because there’s no way this statement meets that criteria.
> 
> View attachment 189056


That guy isn't a civil servant though is he?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 4, 2019)

teqniq said:


> More to add to the list:
> 
> View attachment 189066


Nothing wounds as deeply as the truth


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 4, 2019)

Who will libdems have as leader when she gets fucked off in five weeks? Maybe umunna will finally realise his dream of the top job


----------



## Badgers (Nov 4, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who will libdems have as leader when she gets fucked off in five weeks? Maybe umunna will finally realise his dream of the top job


'top job'?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 4, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who will libdems have as leader when she gets fucked off in five weeks? Maybe umunna will finally realise his dream of the top job


No, because he won’t win the seat he is challenging in.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 4, 2019)

The declaration for Cities of London and Westminster constituency is around 3:30am if you want to stay up to see him lose.


----------



## belboid (Nov 4, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The declaration for Cities of London and Westminster constituency is around 3:30am if you want to stay up to see him lose.


when's East Dunbartonshire?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 4, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The declaration for Cities of London and Westminster constituency is around 3:30am if you want to stay up to see him lose.



To a Tory presumably? No fun in that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> when's East Dunbartonshire?


About 3am.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> To a Tory presumably? No fun in that.


Take you pleasures where you can get them eh?


----------



## Cid (Nov 4, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The declaration for Cities of London and Westminster constituency is around 3:30am if you want to stay up to see him lose.



Why'd they dump him there? Surely there must be better prospects.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 4, 2019)

Cid said:


> Why'd they dump him there? Surely there must be better prospects.



Perhaps they are worried he could potentially take-over, so best to dump him ASAP?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 4, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The declaration for Cities of London and Westminster constituency is around 3:30am if you want to stay up to see him lose.


 I don't have to work the next day so I might very well do, Chuka is actually a credit to the private school system, he has that whiff of self-assured arrogance that so many of them do. He clearly feels that there is a 'name recognition vote' that will vote for him because they recognise his name. (Bit like the Eddie Murphy movie where he scammed his way into Congress because he had the same name as a real candidate who suddenly died) 
Someone in the LibDems has made a smart decision in my view by sticking him in a seat that they probably wouldn't expect to have much of a chance. It's a win-win for them. If there is a "Chuka" vote then they take the seat (and they must be as curious as I am), If there isn't then they are rid of him.


----------



## binka (Nov 4, 2019)

Friend at work had Angela Smith knocking on his door the other weekend, he reckoned she was alright but don't worry I set him straight


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 4, 2019)

Cid said:


> Why'd they dump him there? Surely there must be better prospects.


Where in London? Twickenham already had a candidate and they didn't want to provoke a bout of infighting. Cities is an unlikely but doable target, Tory but with a strong remain bent.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2019)

The Lib Dems have been spending a lot on MRP polling and apparently their polls show them doing well in Two Cities - the Best for Britain MRP (Chris Hanretty has created a spreadsheet of it here) has it as Tories 35 Labour 22 Lib Dems 27, which is still a long way off.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 4, 2019)

teqniq said:


> More to add to the list:
> 
> View attachment 189066



Well done for pissing off the Scots sky. 



If in any doubt look at the comments underneath.


----------



## agricola (Nov 4, 2019)

killer b said:


> The Lib Dems have been spending a lot on MRP polling and apparently their polls show them doing well in Two Cities - the Best for Britain MRP (Chris Hanretty has created a spreadsheet of it here) has it as Tories 35 Labour 22 Lib Dems 27, which is still a long way off.



Have Labour even got a candidate there yet?


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2019)

agricola said:


> Have Labour even got a candidate there yet?


I dunno. I don't know if that really matters that much though, it's the party that wins in the vast majority of seats. An energetic candidate might be able to shift things a % or two, but people vote nationally in generals.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2019)

(actually, I know they don't have a candidate yet 'cause I was looking at the longlist for the constituency last week)


----------



## teqniq (Nov 4, 2019)

Reckon this could be a real vote loser for the vermin. Which is why it's probably unlikely to happen.

Labour, Lib Dems and SNP call for TV election debate on climate crisis


----------



## Wilf (Nov 4, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Obviously focus grouped it and factored that any short-term 'reputational' harm is out-weighed by the medium term electoral damage limitation afforded by withholding.


If grieve hadn't got such a parliamentary stick up his arse, he'd publish it himself. He'll have the substantive report, if not the massaged no. 10 version.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 4, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Well done for pissing off the Scots sky.
> 
> View attachment 189078
> 
> If in any doubt look at the comments underneath.



Debates are usually shit anyway.

I can't vote for the SNP and neither can most other people in the UK, and if you put them in why not Plaid? Or the Greens? Eventually you end up with one of the even more comical 10 speaking heads and two seconds each debates.

Sod that.

Just get 30-60 minutes of each leader on there lonesome getting grilled by the public and answering questions. Got to better than the 5 minute I'm great political rallying cries masquerading as debates the TV channels put on.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 4, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Debates are usually shit anyway.
> 
> I can't vote for the SNP and neither can most other people in the UK, and if you put them in why not Plaid? Or the Greens? Eventually you end up with one of the even more comical 10 speaking heads and two seconds each debates.
> 
> ...


3rd biggest party in the UK, 2nd biggest membership.  Libdems are 4th.  Swinson can't be PM anyway because of EVEL.

Libdems and Labour don't stand in NI either, only the tories do afaik.


----------



## killer b (Nov 4, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Libdems and Labour don't stand in NI either, only the tories do afaik.


they don't


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 4, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> 3rd biggest party in the UK, 2nd biggest membership.  Libdems are 4th.  Swinson can't be PM anyway because of EVEL.
> 
> Libdems and Labour don't stand in NI either, only the tories do afaik.



Don't get me wrong, Swinson can do one, but the SNP are as irrelevant as the Lib Dems but for different reasons.

I'd rather not hear from either but the arbitrary decision to include the piss eagle brigade at least makes some sense for an all UK broadcast.

Literally nobody gives a fuck about Norn. It's an embarrassment to the establishment and the Irish really can't afford to deal with it.


----------



## andysays (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> 3rd biggest party in the UK, 2nd biggest membership.  Libdems are 4th.  Swinson can't be PM anyway *because of EVEL.*
> 
> Libdems and Labour don't stand in NI either, only the tories do afaik.



What's EVEL?

And Sturgeon can't be PM because she isn't an MP, she's an MSP, whereas Swinson can at least fantasize about it, even though it's never going to happen.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> What's EVEL?


English votes for English laws - more here.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2019)

Gove seemed full of coke as he breezed through BBC morning time tv at 0630 then straight onto the today program. 

His attacks on JC, as crammed into the programmes made him look unhinged and the BBC completely biased.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Gove seemed full of coke as he breezed through BBC morning time tv at 0630 then straight onto the today program.
> 
> His attacks on JC, as crammed into the programmes made him look unhinged and the BBC completely biased.


It does, they are...but the relentless negative messaging will stick for the tories. We've got 6 more weeks of this.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Don't get me wrong, Swinson can do one, but the SNP are as irrelevant as the Lib Dems but for different reasons...


Can you give some of the reasons why Scotland's representatives, as I say the SNP are the 3rd biggest UK party, are irrelevant...in the UK?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Gove seemed full of coke as he breezed through BBC morning time tv at 0630 then straight onto the today program.
> 
> His attacks on JC, as crammed into the programmes made him look unhinged and the BBC completely biased.


Even on Today they were getting a bit tired of him answering every question with "Jeremy Corbyn loves Putin" and saying how great Boris was. It might turn into another "strong and stable" at this rate.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 5, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Even on Today they were getting a bit tired of him answering every question with "Jeremy Corbyn loves Putin" and saying how great Boris was. It might turn into another "strong and stable" at this rate.


Suspect they're more likely to carry on with the lines but maybe put Gove back in the cupboard for a while.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 5, 2019)

brogdale said:


> *Suspect they're more likely to carry on with the lines* but maybe put Gove back in the cupboard for a while.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 5, 2019)

bluescreen said:


>



Not intentional.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> What's EVEL?
> 
> And Sturgeon can't be PM because she isn't an MP, she's an MSP, whereas Swinson can at least fantasize about it, even though it's never going to happen.


It’s not been tested post EVEL, but there were many comments at the time that MPs for Scottish Westminster constituencies could not now become PM (because of the West Lothian Question: they’d be responsible for laws in England that they aren’t responsible for in their own constituency, due to devolution).  It’s something that can’t really be resolved in an asymmetrically devolved state. The solutions can only be found in federal U.K. or independence.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 5, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Not intentional.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Gove seemed full of coke as he breezed through BBC morning time tv at 0630 then straight onto the today program.
> 
> His attacks on JC, as crammed into the programmes made him look unhinged and the BBC completely biased.


Would be interesting to have some drug and blood alcohol tests done.

Given that they are proposing, reading and voting on policy and making statements that impact millions of lives it is not too big an ask really. I think the likes of Gove/Johnson have already said on record that they took drugs but regret it so there is nothing to fear is there?


----------



## andysays (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s not been tested post EVEL, but there were many comments at the time that MPs for Scottish Westminster constituencies could not now become PM (because of the West Lothian Question: they’d be responsible for laws in England that they aren’t responsible for in their own constituency, due to devolution).  It’s something that can’t really be resolved in an asymmetrically devolved state. The solutions can only be found in federal U.K. or independence.


It's an interesting constitutional anomaly to mull over on the dark autumnal evenings ahead, but I suggest it's far from the main obstacle Swinson faces in her attempt to become PM


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> It's an interesting constitutional anomaly to mull over on the dark autumnal evenings ahead, but I suggest it's far from the main obstacle Swinson faces in her attempt to become PM


Well quite. The idea that they’re even likely to overtake the SNP in seat numbers is, I submit, far fetched. I expect all their recent defections to be seatless by Christmas.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

the lib dems have constructed yet another obstacle to their success, which is to be ludicrously euphoric and exaggeratedly optimistic about their prospects, which to the uninformed (and indeed to the informed) makes it appear they have taken leave of their senses.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

When will the milkshake throwing start?


----------



## andysays (Nov 5, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> English votes for English laws - more here.


Unless I'm missing something (not the first time) there's nothing there to say an MP representing a non-English constituency can't be PM, merely that non-English MPs can't vote on exclusively English laws.

It's almost like DexterTCN is talking nonsense, or something


----------



## andysays (Nov 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the lib dems have constructed yet another obstacle to their success, which is to be ludicrously euphoric and exaggeratedly optimistic about their prospects, which to the uninformed (and indeed to the informed) makes it appear they have taken leave of their senses.


But at least it gives the rest if us a cheap laugh


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> But at least it gives the rest if us a cheap laugh


you have to take your laughs where you can get them these days


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> Unless I'm missing something (not the first time) there's nothing there to say an MP representing a non-English constituency can't be PM, merely that non-English MPs can't vote on exclusively English laws.
> 
> It's almost like DexterTCN is talking nonsense, or something


The news in Scotland at the time was full of MPs and ministers commenting (variously approvingly or disapprovingly) that the implication was very much that no MP for a Scottish constituency could now be PM.  It may not have hit radars south of the border, but it certainly did here.

But as I say, that aspect has yet to be tested.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> Unless I'm missing something (not the first time) there's nothing there to say an MP representing a non-English constituency can't be PM, merely that non-English MPs can't vote on exclusively English laws.
> 
> It's almost like DexterTCN is talking nonsense, or something


Well everyone else has known about it since 2014, you found out about it this morning.  

Mull it over...in the _united_ kingdom parliament there is a law in place to make sure only those in english seats can be prime minister. No Scots, Welsh or NI.

In the UK parliament.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays Here's Boris muddying the waters recently: Tory leadership: Boris Johnson says 'sorry' for saying a Scot can't be PM

Quite how much you can trust anything he says at any time is very much up to the reader’s discretion. But he’s now saying that what he said previously wasn’t what he said. And if it was, he’s sorry.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> But at least it gives the rest if us a cheap laugh


We're used to it.



tick tock.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The news in Scotland at the time was full of MPs and ministers commenting (variously approvingly or disapprovingly) that the implication was very much that no MP for a Scottish constituency could now be PM.  It may not have hit radars south of the border, but it certainly did here.
> 
> But as I say, that aspect has yet to be tested.


I certainly remember it being mentioned but as you can imagine most English people didn't really give two hoots about it. Luckily it's not evel stopping Jo Swinson becoming PM.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 5, 2019)

The last two Scottish PMs were cunts, since then we've had three English cunts. There seems to be a theme here...


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The last two Scottish PMs were cunts, since then we've had three English cunts. There seems to be a theme here...


No argument here.

Last two Scots PMs were from parties only registered in England though.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The last two Scottish PMs were cunts, since then we've had three English cunts. There seems to be a theme here...


Blair would have been fine as his constituency was in England. Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Alec Douglas-Holme, Ramsey MdcDonald, Bonar Law, David Lloyd-George, H.H. Asquith and Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman would have all had problems though.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> Blair would have been fine as his constituency was in England. Gordon Brown, James Callaghan, Alec Douglas-Holme, Ramsey MdcDonald, Bonar Law, David Lloyd-George, H.H. Asquith and Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman would have all had problems though.


Indeed. It’s not the birthplace of the PM that’s the issue (indeed the current incumbent was born outside the U.K. altogether), but the location of the constituency they represent.

This is because in Scotland, many functions of government are handled at Holyrood, where MSPs are the representatives not MPs.  Therefore in the event Swinson became PM, she’d have a say on Education, Health, law and order and so on in England but not in Scotland. This might, for example, lead to a PM privatising the NHS in England, while knowing that the hospital serving her own constituency remains in public hands. For example.

Devolved versus reserved powers: What are the powers of the Scottish Parliament? - Visit & Learn :									Scottish Parliament

This asymmetry to differing degrees also applies to the other devolved institutions, depending on which powers are devolved. So that’s Wales, Northern Ireland, and yes London, although the mayor and assembly are seldom mentioned in this context, but of course the same argument holds: an MP in London represents a constituency where certain (albeit limited) matters are devolved whereas an MP in Devon, or County Durham or the West Midlands does not.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the lib dems have constructed yet another obstacle to their success, which is to be ludicrously euphoric and exaggeratedly optimistic about their prospects, which to the uninformed (and indeed to the informed) makes it appear they have taken leave of their senses.


Will Chuka stick to the we can win line?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 5, 2019)

Wait was Blair scottish?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Will Chuka stick to the we can win line?


he'll stick to his usual 'we can whine' line


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wait was Blair scottish?


yes


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

The matter was already considered when Owen Smith stood for labour leader. It's irrelevant.




			
				Parliament said:
			
		

> Despite the voting restrictions an MP representing a constituency in one of the devolved nations might face under the EVEL procedures, there is no constitutional reason why a future UK Prime Minister should not represent a constituency in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. It remains the Sovereign’s prerogative to invite whomsoever she chooses to be Prime Minister, albeit in accordance with the constitutional convention that she invite the person who appears most likely to be able to command the confidence of the House of Commons.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wait was Blair scottish?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Indeed. It’s not the birthplace of the PM that’s the issue (indeed the current incumbent was born outside the U.K. altogether), but the location of the constituency they represent.
> 
> This is because in Scotland, many functions of government are handled at Holyrood, where MSPs are the representatives not MPs.  Therefore in the event Swinson became PM, she’d have a say on Education, Health, law and order and so on in England but not in Scotland. This might, for example, lead to a PM privatising the NHS in England, while knowing that the hospital serving her own constituency remains in public hands. For example.
> 
> ...


It won't be Swinson of course, but in the event of a Scottish mp becoming pm, they'd fudge it. The current arrangement, as you point out, is a fudge already.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wait was Blair scottish?


Born Edinburgh. Brought up in Australia and County Durham.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It won't be Swinson of course


Of course. Not even in a parallel universe.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> The matter was already considered when Owen Smith stood for labour leader. It's irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, DexterTCN posting bollocks again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, DexterTCN posting bollocks again.


was that ever news?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 5, 2019)

Well I never


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> It's irrelevant


It may turn out not to affect who becomes PM in practise, but it’s not irrelevant. I can imagine a tabloid inspired backlash should it ever happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well I never


there has even been a welsh prime minister in the past


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, DexterTCN posting bollocks again.


It's shocking, I know.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It may turn out not to affect who becomes PM in practise, but it’s not irrelevant. I can imagine a tabloid inspired backlash should it ever happen.


It would be empty bluster, though - the contradictions of devolution are there already, and a Scottish pm would be a relatively minor thing compared to some other constitutional issues. It could lead to calls for federalism, I guess, but I'm not sure who from - most of the (English) tabloids would be dead against that.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It would be empty bluster, though - the contradictions of devolution are there already, and a Scottish pm would be a relatively minor thing compared to some other constitutional issues. It could lead to calls for federalism, I guess, but I'm not sure who from - most of the (English) tabloids would be dead against that.


It’d feed into English nationalism.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Born Edinburgh. Brought up in Australia and County Durham.


Went to school in Edinburgh though. A really really posh school (Fettes, the one that James Bond was supposed to have gone to after having been expelled from Eton) but definitely in Edinburgh. And there's a hint of posh Scottish in his accent.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’d feed into English nationalism.


In an 'I'm outraged' way rather than 'I've really thought about this and am concerned' way. Same old tune.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> And there's a hint of posh Scottish in his accent.


Is there?  I can’t hear it, but you’re the expert there.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Is there?  I can’t hear it, but you’re the expert there.


I can hear it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In an 'I'm outraged' way rather than 'I've really thought about this and am concerned' way. Same old tune.


I didn’t say it’d be sane.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I can hear it.


Jings. And indeed crivvens.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Jings. And indeed crivvens.


Maybe a hint of scots is easier to hear if you're not Scottish. It won't stand out as much for you - you'll notice the Englishness more.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Is there?  I can’t hear it, but you’re the expert there.


Might just be me imagining it cause I know he's from Edinburgh.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe a hint of scots is easier to hear if you're not Scottish. It won't stand out as much for you - you'll notice the Englishness more.


I guess you’re right. I’ve had people tell me I’ve picked up a hint of Mrs LR’s Stoke accent. It wouldn’t surprise me, but she says she can’t hear it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I guess you’re right. I’ve had people tell me I’ve picked up a hint of Mrs LR’s Stoke accent. It wouldn’t surprise me, but she says she can’t hear it.


I have a hint of Welsh that only some people can hear (and to complicate matters, it's east Gwent, which has much in common with nearby Forest of Dean in England). But to contradict myself a bit, it's often Welsh people who can hear it.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe a hint of scots is easier to hear if you're not Scottish. It won't stand out as much for you - you'll notice the Englishness more.


Scots is a dialect, not an accent.

If you hear a hint of anything it would be of a Scottish accent, surely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Scots is a dialect, not an accent.
> 
> If you hear a hint of anything it would be of a Scottish accent, surely.


in blair's case it would be more than a hint of bullshit


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Scots is a dialect, not an accent.
> 
> If you hear a hint of anything it would be of a Scottish accent, surely.


Ooh, top pedantry!


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, DexterTCN posting bollocks again.


Of course...EVEL doesn't mean EVEL and Sky and the BBC are not cutting Scotland's voice out of the televised debates and are not only having leaders registered in England.

But you don't understand where I'm coming from.

I love it.  I love that you shit on it and dismiss it.  I love that it discriminates against my representatives based on where I live.   I've laughed about it with my MP and MSP and friends sitting in the Tower bar.

Many in Scotland are looking forward to this election.  Are you?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Ooh, top pedantry!


Comes from 20 years living in London and defending myself against allegations that I am either speaking "Scots" or should be speaking "Scots", as if I'm some kind of southern degenerate (like quimcunx for example).


----------



## killer b (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Are you?


absolutely. fucking loved it so far.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Ooh, top pedantry!


it's posts like those that will see teuchter retain his 'pedant of the year' trophy for an unprecedented third time


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> *blah, blah, blah*



I was referring to this post...



DexterTCN said:


> Well everyone else has known about it since 2014, you found out about it this morning.
> 
> *Mull it over...in the united kingdom parliament there is a law in place to make sure only those in english seats can be prime minister. No Scots, Welsh or NI.*
> 
> In the UK parliament.



Which has turned out to be bollocks.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's posts like those that will see teuchter retain his 'pedant of the year' trophy for an unprecedented third time


I for one applaud this effort.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Of course...EVEL doesn't mean EVEL and Sky and the BBC are not cutting Scotland's voice out of the televised debates and are not only having leaders registered in England.
> 
> But you don't understand where I'm coming from.
> 
> ...


you are talking drivel, as usual. The law doesn't claim what it claims you mean and leaders dont have to register themselves anywhere.   You've copied something, probably from your racist friend, without bothering to check the reality (tho you couldn't give a fuck about the Welsh, so why would you?). 0/10


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> you are talking drivel, as usual. The law doesn't claim what it claims you mean and leaders dont have to register themselves anywhere.   You've copied something, probably from your racist friend, without bothering to check the reality (tho you couldn't give a fuck about the Welsh, so why would you?). 0/10


So if I prove you're wrong about 'giving a fuck' about the Welsh you'll apologise then?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> So if I prove you're wrong about 'giving a fuck' about the Welsh you'll apologise then?


Apologise for what? Your central claim - that a Scottish MP would be barred from becoming UK PM - is simply false.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Scots is a dialect, not an accent.
> 
> If you hear a hint of anything it would be of a Scottish accent, surely.



Scots is a language with its own dialects. Dialect would be considered a slightly pejorative term even for a smallish language like Scots.

And a native Scots speaker (rather than a Scottish English speaker who would be speaking English with a Scottish accent) trying to speak proper English but with Scots sounds could easily be considered L1 interference rather than a 'Scottish accent' so a 'hint of Scots' could be correct.

What's the level above uberpedant?


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> So if I prove you're wrong about 'giving a fuck' about the Welsh you'll apologise then?


as soon as you apologise for all your falsehoods, including the one you are currently promoting.  EVEL has no effect upon who the PM is, does it?


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> ...(tho you couldn't give a fuck about the Welsh, so why would you?). 0/10


You'll apologise for that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> Scots is a language with its own dialects. Dialect would be considered a slightly pejorative term even for a smallish language like Scots.
> 
> And a native Scots speaker (rather than a Scottish English speaker who would be speaking English with a Scottish accent) trying to speak proper English but with Scots sounds could easily be considered L1 interference rather than a 'Scottis accent' so a 'hint of Scots' could be correct.
> 
> What's the level above uberpedant?


That’s terrific. Good work.  Where is the cut off between dialect and language?


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s terrific. Good work.  Where is the cut off between dialect and language?


" If you can understand it without training, it’s a dialect of your own language; if you can’t, it’s a different language."  is quite nice.  There isn't one really, though. Languages are more formal, they will have a codified, written, structure, dialects don't _need _one.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> So if I prove you're wrong about 'giving a fuck' about the Welsh you'll apologise then?


How are you going to prove you give a fuck about the welsh, you coming here to do missionary work


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> You'll apologise for that?


If you meet all the other criteria. As clearly stated.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> How are you going to prove you give a fuck about the welsh, you coming here to do missionary work


I am looking forward to this. I suspect he'll claim wanking over Gladys from Hi De Hi counts.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s terrific. Good work.  Where is the cut off between dialect and language?


These men behind me carrying guns will tell you that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> Scots is a language with its own dialects. Dialect would be considered a slightly pejorative term even for a smallish language like Scots.
> 
> And a native Scots speaker (rather than a Scottish English speaker who would be speaking English with a Scottish accent) trying to speak proper English but with Scots sounds could easily be considered L1 interference rather than a 'Scottish accent' so a 'hint of Scots' could be correct.
> 
> What's the level above uberpedant?


ultrapedant


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> " If you can understand it without training, it’s a dialect of your own language; if you can’t, it’s a different language."  is quite nice.


I like that, but you'll get into arguments if you call Norwegian a dialect of Danish on that basis. Also, it's not always symmetrical - a speaker of one dialect/language may understand another dialect/language, but not vice versa.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> If you meet all the other criteria. As clearly stated.


There's no criteria son, you made a claim about me and the Welsh and I've offered to prove you wrong.  Now you're backtracking like a bitch.

Anyway I'm off to a meeting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> There's no criteria son, you made a claim about me and the Welsh and I've offered to prove you wrong.  Now you're backtracking like a bitch.
> 
> Anyway I'm off to a meeting.


on your way then


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

oh my.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Now you're backtracking like a bitch.


What is this language? Please don’t.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> ultrapedant


tssk, tssk. Uber means 'supreme', ultra is merely 'extreme' so uber is higher.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Where is the cut off between dialect and language?


The old saying is that a 'language is a dialect with an army and a navy'. Doesn't have to be taken too literally. Having its own ISO-639 2 and Linguasphere observatory codes make it official though.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> There's no criteria son, you made a claim about me and the Welsh and I've offered to prove you wrong.  Now you're backtracking like a bitch.
> 
> Anyway I'm off to a meeting.


clearly laid out on post 949. So stop being a sexist little fibber.

I hope you enjoy your meeting with your hand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> tssk, tssk. Uber means 'supreme', ultra is merely 'extreme' so uber is higher.


uber means above, it doesn't mean supreme


----------



## andysays (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Indeed. It’s not the birthplace of the PM that’s the issue (indeed the current incumbent was born outside the U.K. altogether), but the location of the constituency they represent.
> 
> This is because in Scotland, many functions of government are handled at Holyrood, where MSPs are the representatives not MPs.  Therefore in the event Swinson became PM, she’d have a say on Education, Health, law and order and so on in England but not in Scotland. This might, for example, lead to a PM privatising the NHS in England, while knowing that the hospital serving her own constituency remains in public hands. For example.
> 
> ...


Given that it also applies to London, I'm amazed that no one has used it as a way of arguing that Corbyn can't be PM either.

But even if we can suspend disbelief enough to imagine PM Swinson (very difficult) wanting to privatise the NHS (not so difficult) she couldn't do it on her own, it would still need a majority of English MPs to actually vote for it.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I like that, but you'll get into arguments if you call Norwegian a dialect of Danish on that basis. Also, it's not always symmetrical - a speaker of one dialect/language may understand another dialect/language, but not vice versa.


I have often heard Italian and Spanish people converse, each speaking their own language, so, no, it doesn't entirely work. But it's neat. And illustrates the unclear line between the two.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> Given that it also applies to London, I'm amazed that no one has used it as a way of arguing that Corbyn can't be PM either.
> 
> But even if we can suspend disbelief enough to imagine PM Swinson (very difficult) wanting to privatise the NHS (not so difficult) she couldn't do it on her own, it would still need a majority of English MPs to actually vote for it.


if swinson became pm we can only assume the country would already be facing an utterly unprecedented emergency, like some sort of real life designated survivor


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> uber means above, it doesn't mean supreme


we're not german!  It means what we want it to mean


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> we're not german!  It means what we want it to mean


yeh well ultrapedant is above uberpedant


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well ultrapedant is above uberpedant


now you're saying its above above?  This way madness lies!


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

andysays said:


> Given that it also applies to London, I'm amazed that no one has used it as a way of arguing that Corbyn can't be PM either.
> 
> But even if we can suspend disbelief enough to imagine PM Swinson (very difficult) wanting to privatise the NHS (not so difficult) she couldn't do it on her own, it would still need a majority of English MPs to actually vote for it.


Yeah, it’s more of a “what if” kind of a scenario. I submit that it’s worth pondering. 

But of course there is no explicit rule, law or convention stating that the MP for a Scottish constituency cannot be PM. It’s more about what the implications of EVOL amount to. And those who say if it comes to it it’ll be fudged are of course correct. The U.K. constitution is created from fudge.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> The old saying is that a 'language is a dialect with an army and a navy'. Doesn't have to be taken too literally. Having its own ISO-639 2 and Linguasphere observatory codes make it official though.


Serbo-Croat would be a good example, imo. 'Dialects' brought together as part of one political project until new political projects (and armies) prised them apart into 'languages'. It's a process that happens everywhere of course. Here in the UK, English has been forged as one language with regional dialects as part of a political project.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> now you're saying its above above?  This way madness lies!



Don't even think about Hyper...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 5, 2019)

pedant-ultima?


----------



## friedaweed (Nov 5, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> pedant-ultima?


Sounds like something you wear in your knickers when you're out on your bike.

Extrapedantry should suffice.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Extrapedantry should suffice


Extrapedantry would be things that were beyond pedantry but weren't actually pedantry cf. extraordinary.

I quite like hyperpedant as it underlines the pointless but compulsive nature of it.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> Scots is a language with its own dialects. Dialect would be considered a slightly pejorative term even for a smallish language like Scots.
> 
> And a native Scots speaker (rather than a Scottish English speaker who would be speaking English with a Scottish accent) trying to speak proper English but with Scots sounds could easily be considered L1 interference rather than a 'Scottish accent' so a 'hint of Scots' could be correct.
> 
> What's the level above uberpedant?



I intended to be pejorative, as supported by my statements in my post no.940. Therefore, my use of 'dialect' rather than 'language' was not a result of a deficiency in pedantry. Some might call this a post-rationalisation, but they wouldn't be able to prove it.

Regarding the question of whether a 'hint of Scots' could be correct - we were talking about Tony Blair. As you yourself said:



maomao said:


> Went to school in Edinburgh though. A really really posh school (Fettes, the one that James Bond was supposed to have gone to after having been expelled from Eton) but definitely in Edinburgh. And there's a hint of posh Scottish in his accent.



So, if we are talking about Tony Blair, and as already established by you, an "accent", involving "posh Scottish" I don't think a 'hint of Scots' could be correct. Whether you call it a language or a dialect, what would be being spoken at Fettes would not be Scots. Posh Scots don't speak Scots, they speak English with a posh Scottish accent.

You will take the pedantry trophy from my cold dead hands.


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

teuchter said:


> So, if we are talking about Tony Blair, and as already established by you, an "accent", involving "posh Scottish" I don't think a 'hint of Scots' could be correct. Whether you call it a language or a dialect, what would be being spoken at Fettes would not be Scots. Posh Scots don't speak Scots, they speak English with a posh Scottish accent.



But you were replying to LBJ's post which didn't specifically reference Blair.



teuchter said:


> You will take the pedantry trophy from my cold dead hands.



Works for me.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> But you were replying to LBJ's post which didn't specifically reference Blair.



It was clearly part of the following conversation about Blair, with each of the posts quoting the one preceding it. If LBJ's post was in fact an outrageous non sequitur then that's not my responsibility.



maomao said:


> Went to school in Edinburgh though. A really really posh school (Fettes, the one that James Bond was supposed to have gone to after having been expelled from Eton) but definitely in Edinburgh. And there's a hint of posh Scottish in his accent.





danny la rouge said:


> Is there?  I can’t hear it, but you’re the expert there.





littlebabyjesus said:


> I can hear it.





danny la rouge said:


> Jings. And indeed crivvens.





littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe a hint of scots is easier to hear if you're not Scottish. It won't stand out as much for you - you'll notice the Englishness more.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)

You bothered to do that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

Poppies!


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2019)

Slow day is it?


----------



## The Boy (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Poppies!



Would be 'puppies' in a Scottish accent.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

The Boy said:


> Would be 'puppies' in a Scottish accent.


Poapies, surely!


----------



## maomao (Nov 5, 2019)

teuchter said:


> It was clearly part of the following conversation about Blair, with each of the posts quoting the one preceding it. If LBJ's post was in fact an outrageous non sequitur then that's not my responsibility.


Both your initial statements were wrong. Scots is a language not a dialect and it is perfectly possible to hear a 'hint of Scots' in an accent (though not Blair's). Have a look at your trophy cabinet mate. It's empty already.



TopCat said:


> Slow day is it?


Yes, thank fuck. First time I've had a few hours with nothing to do in months.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2019)

maomao said:


> it is perfectly possible to hear a 'hint of Scots' in an accent (though not Blair's).



I have not claimed otherwise. And I have already dealt with your objection to the first of my statements. My cabinet is secure and has not been breached.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

apropos of nothing

"The pedant is he who finds it impossible to read criticism of himself without immediately reaching for his pen and replying to the effect that the accusation is a gross insult to his person. He is, in effect, a man unable to laugh at himself." ― Sigmund Freud, _The Ego and the Id_


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

Aren't y'all bitches supposed to laughing up your sleeve at dexter er... son?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

teuchter said:


> My cabinet is secure and has not been breached.


thank god


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Slow day is it?


it is here


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

Are you ready to make that apology? I'd best tag in Proper Tidy in too he usually wants a piece and had something  to say.



belboid said:


> I am looking forward to this. I suspect he'll claim wanking over Gladys from Hi De Hi counts.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 5, 2019)




----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

OMG - drringdings scanned in wetherspoons receipt to prove he's working class might just have been beaten.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 5, 2019)

Lol


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 5, 2019)

Mark you dickhead


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

Separate account for PC stuff - one email in a year. That's commitment.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

We need proof he committed in 2019 - when it cost money.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

Proves it's me.  Proof given.

Waiting now.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

That’s cheered me up no end.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Proves it's me.  Proof given.
> 
> Waiting now.


No it doesn't.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> ...





What's this?

You joined PC in 2018? 

Are you still a member?


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

That's hilarious.  Almost up there with Only the LibDems Can Win Here.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Proves it's me.  Proof given.
> 
> Waiting now.


No that could be anybody, do a selfie of yourself with a massive daffodil on your head singing calon lan in a dickhead pub in pontcanna with all the other dickheads, only this will satisfy me. Dickhead


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> No that could be anybody, do a selfie of yourself with a massive daffodil on your head singing calon lan in a dickhead pub in pontcanna with all the other dickheads, only this will satisfy me. Dickhead





belboid said:


> That's hilarious.  Almost up there with Only the LibDems Can Win Here.



Thought so


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> No, because he won’t win the seat he is challenging in.



Are you confident about that? Bookies have Lib Dems and Tories neck and neck and the constituency was 72% remain. 

Am genuinely interested in any insight you might have because Labour improved their vote share significantly in 2017 at the Tories expense with Lib Dems doing poorly. You can get 9/1 on Labour to take the seat and I quite fancy that unless Umunna is likely to significantly increase the yellow vermin share of the vote.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Thought so


I note you have completely ignored the other half of the requirements mentioned on post 949.  But I guess they're not as easy to fake


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 5, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Are you confident about that? Bookies have Lib Dems and Tories neck and neck and the constituency was 72% remain.
> 
> Am genuinely interested in any insight you might have because Labour improved their vote share significantly in 2017 at the Tories expense with Lib Dems doing poorly. You can get 9/1 on Labour to take the seat and I quite fancy that unless Umunna is likely to significantly increase the yellow vermin share of the vote.


I don’t have anything you can base your betting on.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Proves it's me.  Proof given.
> 
> Waiting now.



How do we know you're Mark?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t have anything you can base your betting on.


----------



## andysays (Nov 5, 2019)

Well, this thread continues to take some interesting twists and turns


----------



## Wilf (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Of course. Not even in a parallel universe.


Not even in a parallel universe that is entirely dedicated to Jo Swinson becoming PM, where all physical laws, natural systems and moral philosophy work towards that goal. No, couldn't happen there either.


----------



## elbows (Nov 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Separate account for PC stuff - one email in a year. That's commitment.



If that detail all comes from that one screenshot then I dont think its a proper match what is shown. The 1 next to inbox refers to how many unread items there are. Cannot see how many search results for plaid there are from that image, because the window needs to be wider before it starts to show such numbers in the row below the search bar. Nothing to indicate a separate account.

Sorry for the sad analysis. Might have signed up with Plaids website as "mark --" though, which shows true commitment to the cause


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 5, 2019)

I just heard Swinson saying the upcoming election could bring about a seismic change. I think she means the resumption of fracking tests after the said election.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 5, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Poapies, surely!


A collective noun for Bishops of Rome?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 189132
> 
> What's this?
> 
> ...




DexterTCN


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

elbows said:


> If that detail all comes from that one screenshot then I dont think its a proper match what is shown. The 1 next to inbox refers to how many unread items there are. Cannot see how many search results for plaid there are from that image, because the window needs to be wider before it starts to show such numbers in the row below the search bar. Nothing to indicate a separate account.
> 
> Sorry for the sad analysis. Might have signed up with Plaids website as "mark --" though, which shows true commitment to the cause



I think I've found the original:


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

elbows said:


> If that detail all comes from that one screenshot then I dont think its a proper match what is shown. The 1 next to inbox refers to how many unread items there are. Cannot see how many search results for plaid there are from that image, because the window needs to be wider before it starts to show such numbers in the row below the search bar. Nothing to indicate a separate account.
> 
> Sorry for the sad analysis. Might have signed up with Plaids website as "mark --" though, which shows true commitment to the cause


He did a search for plaid  - it turned up 1. It was in his inbox, not deleted or in a folder. He just left it there. That's the level of commitment. The bit at the bottom where you choose which account to view - and it's dead nature - suggests a separate account.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> DexterTCN


what?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> what?




Will you reply to cupid_stunt?

The 2019 General Election


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Will you reply to cupid_stunt?
> 
> The 2019 General Election


If my email snip is true, which of course it is...do you think belboid should apologise for saying I don't give a fuck about Wales?   And those that sided with him?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> If my email snip is true, which of course it is...do you think belboid should apologise for saying I don't give a fuck about Wales?   And those that sided with him?


I don't. You think PC is wales? You think that you can use welsh interest as rhetoric - that nationalism equals the interests that you claim to give a shit about. No. You owe a lot more people apologies.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He did a search for plaid  - it turned up 1. It was in his inbox, not deleted or in a folder. He just left it there. That's the level of commitment. The bit at the bottom where you choose which account to view - and it's dead nature - suggests a separate account.



I never delete any emails or put them in a folder to be fair.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> If my email snip is true, which of course it is...do you think belboid should apologise for saying I don't give a fuck about Wales?   And those that sided with him?



No, how does joining PC *for free* mean you care about Wales?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2019)

He's had one plaid email on that account in a year then. I don't think this indicates enough interest in wales beyond a formal bureaucratic interest - in fact, given these people are anti-=the w/c in wales he's siding with the oppressor.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I never delete any emails or put them in a folder to be fair.


That stupid cunt doesn't know how googlemail works.  The bit at the bottom with the account avatar....Dexter from The Cartoon Channel....i.e.  me.  I searched my inbox for plaid, used the one with least info...and at that point today did have an unread email, yup.  

Doesn't matter though...proof was posted and your mates are bending over backwards arguing about why no apology is required. 

It's embarrassing.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 5, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He's had one plaid email on that account in a year then. I don't think this indicates enough interest in wales beyond a formal bureaucratic interest - in fact, given these people are anti-=the w/c in wales he's siding with the oppressor.



Fair.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> That stupid cunt doesn't know how googlemail works.  The bit at the bottom with the account avatar....Dexter from The Cartoon Channel....i.e.  me.  I searched my inbox for plaid, used the one with least info...and at that point today did have an unread email, yup.
> 
> Doesn't matter though...proof was posted and your mates are bending over backwards arguing about why no apology is required.
> 
> It's embarrassing.



I mean, nobody owes you an apology. If anyone owes anyone an apology it's you.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Fair.


Really?  You know...you can search for people saying things on urban, yeah?

Even in the Wales subforum.


DexterTCN said:


> No the job is not done, not by a long shot.   You do the job if you choose to.
> 
> Yes, we lost the first indy (against the might of the british state and media and corporations... by just over 5%) but we're stronger now and we have a lot more experience...we should win next time...and they know that still won't be the end of it.  You can do the same if it's what you want.   We'll support you if you want us to.
> 
> ...



I'm on record _here_ as supporting Wales, on urban.  Did I photoshop that as well?  

Let's see the twisting now.


----------



## killer b (Nov 5, 2019)

I mean, no-one gives a fuck.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN why will not answer these simple questions...

What's this? You joined PC in 2018? 

Are you still a member?

- or did you just join for a free period?


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> DexterTCN why will not answer these simple questions...
> 
> What's this? You joined PC in 2018?
> 
> ...


And are you (Dexter) prepared to apologise for the falsehoods in your post, as requested earlier?


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> And are you prepared to apologise for the falsehoods in your post, as requested earlier?


Go and fuck yourself, you mendacious, slandering twatwanking fucktrumpet.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> And are you prepared to apologise for the falsehoods in your post, as requested earlier?



Pardon? 

I've not posted any falsehoods, I've only asked him questions, which he seems to be too thick to answer.


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Pardon?
> 
> I've not posted any falsehoods, I've only asked him questions.


sorry, twas an additional one for Dexter.  He seems strangely unhappy to comply.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Go and fuck yourself, you mendacious, slandering twatwanking fucktrumpet.



Are you still a member?

- or did you just join for a free period?


----------



## belboid (Nov 5, 2019)

I am surprised someone with as keen interest in Welsh matters as our Dexter was unaware of the fact that Owen Smith disproved the claim the EVEL meant an MP from a devolved nation couldn't be PM.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 5, 2019)

belboid said:


> And are you (Dexter) prepared to apologise for the falsehoods in your post, as requested earlier?





DexterTCN said:


> Go and fuck yourself, you mendacious, slandering twatwanking fucktrumpet.



Come on, yes or no!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 5, 2019)

Save it for the televised debate eh?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 5, 2019)

Rees mogg is getting it it the neck. BBC are rolling with it. He's not a minor figure.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 5, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Save it for the televised debate eh?



Are you suggesting that DexterTCN, the SNP & PC champion, is going to be on a televised debate?

*orders a truckload of popcorn*


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 5, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Save it for the televised debate eh?


Would love for this to be on telly tbh. With the curb your enthusiasm music every time dexter appears in shot


----------



## Wilf (Nov 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Are you suggesting that DexterTCN, the SNP & PC champion, is going to be on a televised debate?


 He speaks for _two _nations. We should all be very proud of him.


----------



## Gerry1time (Nov 5, 2019)

This is just painful to watch.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 5, 2019)

Absolute fucking shameful bunch of cunts.

Tories unrepentant over misleadingly edited Keir Starmer TV footage


----------



## brogdale (Nov 5, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> This is just painful to watch.



The horror, the horror!


----------



## killer b (Nov 5, 2019)

Solid day of campaigning for the tories huh.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 5, 2019)

Who'd have thought that they'd gone so early on the eugenics line?


----------



## Humberto (Nov 6, 2019)

Am I right in thinking the battle lines are becoming more lucid, but that this is still a step on the road? There seems to be a paranoia infecting this whole debate. By which I mean: constant gaffes, people speaking before they can think, fear. We've been talking about a Tory implosion. I think that is what we are going to see. We have not even kicked off yet and arch-villain Rees-Mogg is talking like a demented idiot. Johnson a steady hand to calm the ship? I very much doubt it.

They are shit people. They don't have a base as such among the wider electorate. So certainly these buffoons could start a snowballing of idiotic 'maneuvers' that sees them lose popularity and leave Labour ready to carry on its project.

They know they can't compete with Labour in terms of vision and appeal to the majority. If I see them keep making shit errors like they have done for so long, things will turn around when the going gets tough.

In terms of strategy, now is the time. Take the open goal wherever it can be found. Destroy them and humiliate them. They are in my opinion walking themselves into a trap, again. 

Why should we resign ourselves, more and more of us, to having shitter lives and futures? Because they flatter those who still keep their heads above water? Absolute rubbish. Despite what the media and the well fed politicians tell you, Labour are streets ahead of the incumbent govt in terms honest record, credibility and political vision.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 6, 2019)

Humberto said:


> They know they can't compete with Labour in terms of vision and appeal to the majority. If I see them keep making shit errors like they have done for so long, things will turn around when the going gets tough.



I think I'll wait til December 13th before settling on how much there is to this.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 6, 2019)

8ball said:


> I think I'll wait til December 13th before settling on how much there is to this.



YES


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

Well edited clip


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 6, 2019)

Humberto said:


> By which I mean: constant gaffes, people speaking before they can think, fear. We've been talking about a Tory implosion. I think that is what we are going to see. We have not even kicked off yet and arch-villain Rees-Mogg is talking like a demented idiot. Johnson a steady hand to calm the ship? I very much doubt it.



I think gaffes and incompetence have always been there, as well as dodgy statements from the past etc.

What has changed is the level of scrutiny of individuals, and how quickly fuck-ups can be shared and amplified. In the past politicians’ words and actions were presented via mainstream media channels, a limited and filtered content. Now we get everything, with thousands of eyes able to pick out the indiscretions.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> What's your source on this? Anything beyond James Melville? Cause if that's all, I'd say it's balls.


Still no confirmed msm source but some good speculation and talk of leaks regards Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson Johnson standing in Rutland and Melton.



Melton Mowbray pork pie makers and No 10 clash over Johnson claim

Pretty harsh on the region if so. They already have Andrew Brigden, Keith Vaz and Annunziata Rees-Mogg festering around.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 6, 2019)

and the Tory election campaign launches with............











a good sign though, in as much as it suggests the Tories might be getting their tone all wrong. I dont think "literally worse than Hitler Stalin" is going to work for them.


(That reminds me, must pop in to Boodles and get some diamonds)


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

> Over the last five years, the number of emergency food parcels provided to people in crisis by food banks in the Trussell Trust’s network has increased by 73%. No charity can replace the dignity of buying your own food. To help end the need for food banks, the Trussell Trust commissioned State of Hunger – the most authoritative piece of independent research into hunger in the UK to date.


State of Hunger

Nothing we don't already know but good to share with folks.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 6, 2019)

He still writing articles for that compendium of cunts?


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 6, 2019)

How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.


Russian dancer, a friend of the former strictly judge lenin goodman


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.


They finally figured out the Venezuela thing was remote and meaningless to most people, so are trying for something more relevant to the floating voter of 2019.


----------



## chilango (Nov 6, 2019)

Good. Make it a class war election. About fucking time.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Absolute fucking shameful bunch of cunts.
> 
> Tories unrepentant over misleadingly edited Keir Starmer TV footage


Listening to one of the cunts on 5 Live using words like 'satirical' and 'how social media works' regards this. Also saying they have 'nothing to hide' about this


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> State of Hunger
> 
> Nothing we don't already know but good to share with folks.


My virus protection warned against that link as 'very risky' so here's a different one, accessed via the Trussell Trust: https://www.trusselltrust.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/06/SoH-Interim-Report-Final-2.pdf


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> My virus protection warned against that link as 'very risky' so here's a different one, accessed via The Trussell Trust: https://www.trusselltrust.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/06/SoH-Interim-Report-Final-2.pdf


Cheers bluescreen it is something that should be read and shared


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

Here it comes...


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 6, 2019)

chilango said:


> Good. Make it a class war election. About fucking time.


Thing most likely to turn me from a non-voter to voting for Labour (as in 2017)


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Here it comes...



Walking down the street...


----------



## teqniq (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Here it comes...



Hopefully they will actually come up with some really shit ideas that alienate the public but I like these.


----------



## maomao (Nov 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.


I have a customer with the surname Stalin and when I commented on it no-one in my office knew what I meant.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.



Read an article about the Red Menace stuff in the US, nobody cares any more beyond an ageing portion of the right. Think that's a bit part of the right embracing the Anti-Semitism stuff, they need a new staple and think that'll do it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 6, 2019)

maomao said:


> I have a customer with the surname Stalin and when I commented on it no-one in my office knew what I meant.



Did he buy or was he stalling?


----------



## maomao (Nov 6, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Did he buy or was he stalling?


She has a company account and doesn't worry about the price so that joke won't work unfortunately.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 6, 2019)

I hope he has nieces and nephews though


----------



## brogdale (Nov 6, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I hope he has nieces and nephews though


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

YouSir said:


> Read an article about the Red Menace stuff in the US, nobody cares any more beyond an ageing portion of the right. Think that's a bit part of the right embracing the Anti-Semitism stuff, they need a new staple and think that'll do it.


The sad truth is that the right need an enemy or hate figure. Reading some of the baseless 'statements' from Tories/Brexiteers are mind boggling and they will never debate or accept they are wrong regardless of facts. 

The cunts sleep like babies at night too


----------



## MrSki (Nov 6, 2019)

Well Kay Burley on Sky has empty chaired James Cleverly. 

Sums up yesterday for the tories pretty well.


----------



## maomao (Nov 6, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I hope he has nieces and nephews though


Even if she preferred 'uncle' to 'auntie' she'd still be 'Uncle <first name>'


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Well Kay Burley on Sky has empty chaired James Cleverly.
> 
> Sums up yesterday for the tories pretty well.



Outstanding


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.



As it happens, I asked a group of millenials if anyone could identify the decapitated statue in this image recently. Nobody had a clue who it was, even when I mentioned that it had been taken in Budapest in 1956.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 6, 2019)

Quite something to see the vermin's campaign reduced to claiming that they're not all cunts like Rees Mogg.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 6, 2019)

I don’t know why they have assigned cleverly the role of fronting their fuck ups - he is a charmless unimaginative wanker - he’s a patsy and doesn’t realise he is being made to look like a twat on a daily basis


----------



## rekil (Nov 6, 2019)

I for one have never doubted comrade Burley's commitment to the cause of intergalactic communism.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 6, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> I don’t know why they have assigned cleverly the role of fronting their fuck ups - he is a charmless unimaginative wanker - he’s a patsy and doesn’t realise he is being made to look like a twat on a daily basis



I was wondering that as well.  He's been sent around to do all the leg work at the moment, I know he's the chairman and all but what are the ministers up to?  Of course if you were being very cynical you may consider there to be one reason why he is going to be a very public figure of this campaign...


----------



## inva (Nov 6, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> As it happens, I asked a group of millenials if anyone could identify the decapitated statue in this image recently. Nobody had a clue who it was, even when I mentioned that it had been taken in Budapest in 1956.


I would've thought mentioning Budapest 56 would only make it less easy to identify.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

Mr James Cleverly


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 6, 2019)

TA officer bully


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Mr James Cleverly




JFC = Totally Spineless Chicken

Um, yeah OK.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 6, 2019)

Interesting line of attack Johnson has chosen - are there any examples from history of a charismatic right-wing nationalist leader vowing to defeat a Stalin figure?


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 6, 2019)

inva said:


> I would've thought mentioning Budapest 56 would only make it less easy to identify.



Are you basing this on your own blindspots or awareness of those common to social memory today?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.


Easy, he's the bloke in the memes. The one with the moustache and no beard, not the one with the beard.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 6, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> As it happens, I asked a group of millenials if anyone could identify the decapitated statue in this image recently. Nobody had a clue who it was, even when I mentioned that it had been taken in Budapest in 1956.



I can see how the Stalin references might resonate with a segment of the electorate. But these are likely to be Tory voters in the main, although also possibly older working class voters who remember the constructed crises of the 1970's. But it's a bizarre line to open up a campaign with and, as with the IRA stuff, unlikely to connect with much outside he tory base. Odd.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can see how the Stalin references might resonate with a segment of the electorate. But these are likely to be Tory voters in the main, although also possibly older working class voters who remember the constructed crises of the 1970's. But it's a bizarre line to open up a campaign with and, as with the IRA stuff, unlikely to connect with much outside he tory base. Odd.


Maybe they’re worried about the Tory base?


----------



## inva (Nov 6, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Are you basing this on your own blindspots or awareness of those common to social memory today?


Both I think.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> State of Hunger


....not seen since Stalin collectivised the land of the kulaks


Idris2002 said:


> How many people out there have the vaguest idea who Stalin even was? Normal people, I mean.


I think rich Tory readers probably continue to have an inkling of the spectre, for reasons of self interest


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Maybe they’re worried about the Tory base?



Leaking to the BP? Definitely. Voting for Corbyn? Nah.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2019)

its not all that long since they wheeled out the Stalin  docus on the beeb, round the time of the revolution's centenary. Thats not much compared to the glut of docus on royalty, war and the victorians


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Listening to one of the cunts on 5 Live using words like 'satirical' and 'how social media works' regards this. Also saying they have 'nothing to hide' about this


if they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> I don’t know why they have assigned cleverly the role of fronting their fuck ups - he is a charmless unimaginative wanker - he’s a patsy and doesn’t realise he is being made to look like a twat on a daily basis


because on his application form he said he approached difficult situations cleverly


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 6, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> its not all that long since they wheeled out the Stalin  docus on the beeb, round the time of the revolution's centenary. Thats not much compared to the glut of docus on royalty, war and the victorians



Did they? I must have missed that. The only upsurge in interest in Stalin I've noted is on the fringes of the middle class hobbyist left. Who. let's face it, talk only to themselves.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 6, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> As it happens, I asked a group of millenials if anyone could identify the decapitated statue in this image recently. Nobody had a clue who it was, even when I mentioned that it had been taken in Budapest in 1956.



Ask them who they think this person is.


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leaking to the BP? Definitely. Voting for Corbyn? Nah.


A good part of their strategy will surely be about preventing a split vote: if you can scare the base with the spectre of Corbyn, then they're more likely to not risk voting BP.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Leaking to the BP? Definitely. Voting for Corbyn? Nah.


Yes, precisely. They are trying to say voting BP risks a Corbyn government.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Ask them who they think this person is.
> 
> View attachment 189194


isn't he out of a boy band and on strictly a couple of years ago?


----------



## Supine (Nov 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The only upsurge in interest in Stalin I've noted is on the fringes of the middle class hobbyist left. Who. let's face it, talk only to themselves.



Urban75 politics forum?


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> isn't he out of a boy band and on strictly a couple of years ago?



He was part of a male-dominated band of revolutionaries and he was certainly strict, so I'm going to give you half a point there.


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

99% of the Stalin stuff on the middle class hobbyist left is comedy meme stuff, all as a response to idiotic attacks like Johnson's today.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes, precisely. They are trying to say voting BP risks a Corbyn government.



This is the only logical conclusion, but it remains a bizarre start to their campaign.


----------



## strung out (Nov 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> isn't he out of a boy band and on strictly a couple of years ago?


Zayn Malik I think


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Ask them who they think this person is.
> 
> View attachment 189194



It's a toughie but the facial hair and barnet would suggest a League One footballer.


----------



## JimW (Nov 6, 2019)

Runs a rice crispy caff in Shoreditch


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

strung out said:


> Zayn Malik I think
> 
> View attachment 189195


yeh he's the one i had in mind


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

.


----------



## Santino (Nov 6, 2019)

ska invita said:


> (That reminds me, must pop in to Boodles and get some diamonds)


If you go in after 4:00pm you can sometimes find them marking down stock that's almost out of date.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> JFC = Totally Spineless Chicken
> 
> Um, yeah OK.


They dont get the funny bit is important. Like Gove on Today yesterday answering a question (not) with a statement about Boris being a premier league footballer whilst Jeremy Corbyn was non league. 
This is all going to look like an unacceptable refusal to discuss policy before too long.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

Let's see how the betting odds look today (day 2). Next Prime Minister
Boris 1/3
Jeremy 2/1
Jo Swinson 20/1

Well punters there has been a pile of money going on Jeremy with his odds shortening to 2/1.
Boris's odds hold and the lib dems have what must be their shortest odds in 50 years.

I want to offer better odds to lib dem fanciers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Let's see how the betting odds look today (day 2). Next Prime Minister
> Boris 1/3
> Jeremy 2/1
> Jo Swinson 20/1
> ...


a pity you can't simply set up a stall outside lib dem hq offering odds and taking money



or maybe you can


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

I'll give 8/1 on any bets on "jo swinson next PM. 

Please share.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

> Priti Patel will introduce Boris Johnson this evening at his campaign launch in the West Midlands. Expect to see her front and centre for Tories throughout election campaign.
> 
> She's also being lined up to represent the Tories if there's a debate with all the party leaders


#thiswillgowell


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

The Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns has just resigned. This is going fabulously.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> The Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns has just resigned. This is going fabulously.



"Rape Case Sabotage Minister Resigns" is quite the day-two-of-campaign headline


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> "Rape Case Sabotage Minister Resigns" is quite the day-two-of-campaign headline


They are writing themselves


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> "Rape Case Sabotage Minister Resigns" is quite the day-two-of-campaign headline


I wonder what Priti will say.


----------



## gosub (Nov 6, 2019)

Boris Johnson us about to make a statement.   I reckon he might be calling a surprise election!


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I wonder what Priti will say.


Something awful about the victim while grinning


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I wonder what Priti will say.



"Law and order, law and order, I'm going to bring back hanging!"


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I wonder what Priti will say.


'off with their heads'


----------



## gosub (Nov 6, 2019)

gosub said:


> Boris Johnson us about to make a statement.   I reckon he might be calling a surprise election!


Called it : )


----------



## bendeus (Nov 6, 2019)

Cairns is my MP and a more shameless, publicity seeking, toadying bandwagon jumper you will be hard pushed to find. Tory majority of only 2200 here should be seriously under threat as it looks like he will still be the candidate. Sorry, I meant rape case sabotage candidate.


----------



## belboid (Nov 6, 2019)

Chris Williamson, Stephen Hepburn and Roger Godsiff not endorsed as @uklabour candidates by NEC and new ones will be selected


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 6, 2019)

maomao said:


> I have a customer with the surname Stalin and when I commented on it no-one in my office knew what I meant.



You’re forgetting that the average age of a Telegraph reader is about ninety. Right for the target audience.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Something awful about the victim while grinning


Not sure. This is also about attempting to pervert the course of justice, an offence that almost always gets prison time. Priti might be torn.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

The world at one (radio 4) led on the rape minister court perversion and everyone on it seemed gobsmacked that this has happened on day two and were openly questioning the whole tory strategy.

I'm going to the bookies.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2019)

I heard priri patel is going to be unveiling new, longer stretches for crimes and also making it so they can steal caravans from travellers more easily. Absolute cunt.


----------



## andysays (Nov 6, 2019)

So have I got this right, this twat has resigned as a minister (the day after parliament is dissolved anyway) but intends to stand again for re-election?


----------



## belboid (Nov 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> So have I got this right, this twat has resigned as a minister (the day after parliament is dissolved anyway) but intends to stand again for re-election?


You are still a minister when parliament is prorogued, so its not entirely meaningless. 

But,yes, you are right.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> The world at one (radio 4) led on the rape minister court perversion and everyone on it seemed gobsmacked that this has happened on day two and were openly questioning the whole tory strategy.
> 
> I'm going to the bookies.



Also telling was the minimal amount of any cuddly Boris on show. He must be spitting feathers at the incompetence of those around him; whilst obviously not reflecting on his own ineptitude.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 6, 2019)

belboid said:


> Chris Williamson, Stephen Hepburn and Roger Godsiff not endorsed as @uklabour candidates by NEC and new ones will be selected



Good to hear about Godsiff. Suspect Salma Yaqoob might be lined up for the seat?


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

is there likely to be more to come, or does Vaz's absence from this list suggest he's running?


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> The world at one (radio 4) led on the rape minister court perversion and everyone on it seemed gobsmacked that this has happened on day two and were openly questioning the whole tory strategy.
> 
> I'm going to the bookies.



Tory supporters contacting 5 live to ask what the f is going on and is the party going to fuck it up just like 2017.  It always amazes me when people align themselves with wankers and then get surprised when they are surrounded by wankers.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 6, 2019)

Good (convenient) news.

UK terror threat level downgraded from severe to substantial


----------



## belboid (Nov 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good to hear about Godsiff. Suspect Salma Yaqoob might be lined up for the seat?


Yaqoub is also being discussed at the panel I believe - but in relation to Mayor of Brum not as an MP.



killer b said:


> is there likely to be more to come, or does Vaz's absence from this list suggest he's running?


delayed as Vaz is in hospital apparently


----------



## brogdale (Nov 6, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Good (convenient) news.
> 
> UK terror threat level downgraded from severe to substantial


Seems somewhat unusual; I was under the impression that such status was always considered potentially higher at times of significant electoral events?


----------



## bendeus (Nov 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> So have I got this right, this twat has resigned as a minister (the day after parliament is dissolved anyway) but intends to stand again for re-election?


That's what seems to be happening, yes


----------



## brogdale (Nov 6, 2019)

This quite something from the god-bothering sexting pest...



Vote tory in Wales, eh?


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> 99% of the Stalin stuff on the middle class hobbyist left is comedy meme stuff, all as a response to idiotic attacks like Johnson's today.


I'm really sorry.


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 6, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> As it happens, I asked a group of millenials if anyone could identify the decapitated statue in this image recently. Nobody had a clue who it was, even when I mentioned that it had been taken in Budapest in 1956.



It's Ron Swanson


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

Hope that Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson is promoting #NationalStressAwarenessDay


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This quite something from the god-bothering sexting pest...
> 
> View attachment 189203
> 
> Vote tory in Wales, eh?


His tone was very telling. In summary the Tories have no moral compass.


----------



## JimW (Nov 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> I'm really sorry.View attachment 189204


Thought he had it in for "cosmopolitans"?


----------



## treelover (Nov 6, 2019)

Revealing that the broadcast media is not discussing much the ASA ruling about the DWP and U/C advertising

then again, there have been a lot of 'mistakes' this week.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> Revealing that the broadcast media is not discussing much the ASA ruling about the DWP and U/C advertising
> 
> then again, there have been a lot of 'mistakes' this week.



It was on the BBC this morning. I'm not surprised the ministerial resignation has been given greater importance.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)




----------



## Teaboy (Nov 6, 2019)

2 million parents break into a spontaneous bout of cartwheels.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> 2 million parents break into a spontaneous bout of cartwheels.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 6, 2019)

No doubt the usual suspects will come up with stories of religious suppression due to not wanting to discourage non-Xtains to vote ...


----------



## treelover (Nov 6, 2019)

> So let’s recap on Day 1 yesterday from the Blonde Bombsite and his unpopulist rabble:
> 
> Released a doctored video of Kier Starmer
> 
> ...



All in a days work, but they are still on course to win GE, Trumpian Days..


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> All in a days work, but they are still on course to win GE, Trumpian Days..


got money on the tories have you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Not sure. This is also about attempting to pervert the course of justice, an offence that almost always gets prison time. Priti might be torn.


thought it might be contempt of court too, to flagrantly go against the court's direction of what might not be spoken


----------



## treelover (Nov 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> got money on the tories have you?



Oh, ffs, what are you inferring, I want the Tories gone.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 6, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Not sure. This is also about attempting to pervert the course of justice, an offence that almost always gets prison time. Priti might be torn.


Is this perversion being formally investigated?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> Oh, ffs, what are you inferring, I want the Tories gone.


i'm not inferring anything, looked like you were saying the tories can do what they want and they'll still win


----------



## Wilf (Nov 6, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> its not all that long since they wheeled out the Stalin  docus on the beeb, round the time of the revolution's centenary. Thats not much compared to the glut of docus on royalty, war and the victorians


2015 and the spectre of Red Ed's Dead Dad was haunting the election.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2019)

It's not really that surprising that they are fucking this up though is it? The party was at the "dregs" stage at the last election when May was the best they could manage as leader. Now they've gone through the dregs and, I dunno where you go past that in the metaphor, maybe raid the bathroom cabinet and start drinking the mouthwash.

The whole "they may look like stupid toffs but actually they're really smart" thing was never true. It's only people around them who have an interest in keeping them in power who could manage a win - the Tories themselves are a liability to their own election chances. Tragically that still doesn't mean they can't make it, of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not really that surprising that they are fucking this up though is it? The party was at the "dregs" stage at the last election when May was the best they could manage as leader. Now they've gone through the dregs and, I dunno where you go past that in the metaphor, maybe raid the bathroom cabinet and start drinking the mouthwash.
> 
> The whole "they may look like stupid toffs but actually they're really smart" thing was never true. It's only people around them who have an interest in keeping them in power who could manage a win - the Tories themselves are a liability to their own election chances. Tragically that still doesn't mean they can't make it, of course.


to take a smoking analogy, they've had all the rolling tobacco and now they're rummaging through the ashtray and making new cigarettes from the dog-ends of the auld ones.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> to take a smoking analogy, they've had all the rolling tobacco and now they're rummaging through the ashtray and making new cigarettes from the dog-ends of the auld ones.


Or some kind of mechanically separated meat product once the prime cuts have been taken.

Some Tories, yesterday


Spoiler


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

bendeus said:


> Or some kind of mechanically separated meat product once the prime cuts have been taken.


more trying to re-eat the meat once it has already been through a human digestive tract once.

that's where the tories are.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> more trying to re-eat the meat once it has already been through a human digestive tract once.
> 
> that's where the tories are.


There's a bunch of them who look like they've been on that dark and noisome journey at least once.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> more trying to re-eat the meat once it has already been through a human digestive tract once.
> 
> that's where the tories are.


Preparing for another coalition?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

bendeus said:


> Or some kind of mechanically separated meat product once the prime cuts have been taken.
> 
> Some Tories, yesterday
> 
> ...


could you whack a spoiler round that pls


----------



## bendeus (Nov 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> could you whack a spoiler round that pls


Fucking hell, you've just led me down a dark labyrinth of phone based ineptitude


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

bendeus said:


> Fucking hell, you've just led me down a dark labyrinth of phone based ineptitude


i'd be happy to do this sort of thing for you in future, just pm me your log-in details


----------



## MrSki (Nov 6, 2019)




----------



## friedaweed (Nov 6, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> Good (convenient) news.
> 
> UK terror threat level downgraded from severe to substantial


More fucking spin than a roulette wheel


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 6, 2019)

And, the biggest money tree award goes to the Green party...



> The Green Party has launched its general election campaign, with a pledge to *spend £100bn a year over the next decade* trying to rid the UK of fossil fuels.
> 
> The party said around £91bn annually would come from borrowing while £9bn would be raised through a 5% hike in corporation tax.
> 
> General Election 2019: Greens pledge to spend £100bn a year to tackle climate crisis


----------



## Wilf (Nov 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Preparing for another coalition?


Just as an aside, I wonder how shitting on someone works as a business plan? You'd  have to be _very_ regular to be able to 'deliver' every time Mr  Oaten rang.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I for one applaud this effort.


I fear that it is no effort, but comes entirely naturally.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2019)

Tom Watson's stepped down now.


----------



## belboid (Nov 6, 2019)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 6, 2019)

Even his resignation statement boils my piss in its monumental self indulgence. 

Given his eulogy to the Black Country I expect him to move to London immediately, never to be seen again. With any luck anyways


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 6, 2019)

another communication from the limp dems today (3 in the last week or so)

(high profile ex tory standing against incumbent tory brexiter in 'remain' area)

still haven't got round to sending back the thing that came with a reply paid envelope last week.  must find it.  and a brick.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 6, 2019)

Theresa May is stepping down too.

ETA I thinks this is bollocks cos I can't find any confirmation.


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Theresa May is stepping down too.


where did you get this...?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Even his resignation statement boils my piss in its monumental self indulgence.
> 
> Given his eulogy to the Black Country I expect him to move to London immediately, never to be seen again. With any luck anyways


With any luck he'll take up residence in a ditch alongside johnson


----------



## binka (Nov 6, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Theresa May is stepping down too.


I hope that's true and comes out tonight if only to piss on Watson's chips


----------



## MrSki (Nov 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> where did you get this...?


A couple of different tweets but can't find any confirmation so could be bollocks.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 6, 2019)

MrSki said:


> A couple of different tweets but can't find any confirmation so could be bollocks.


I’ve been looking around and there’s nothing. If it was even just likely it’d be bigger news than Watson.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 6, 2019)

How will deputy leader selection work now then, one member one vote? And does it have to be an MP? If not they should get kathy burke or something, got to better than some dickhead


----------



## MrSki (Nov 6, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve been looking around and there’s nothing. If it was even just likely it’d be bigger news than Watson.


Agreed. I have been looking too & found nothing else.


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> How will deputy leader selection work now then, one member one vote? And does it have to be an MP? If not they should get kathy burke or something, got to better than some dickhead


a leftwinger will walk it.


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

(I appreciate that doesn't mean they won't be a dickhead)


----------



## kenny g (Nov 6, 2019)

Best news of the day by a mile. Good bye TW.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Is this perversion being formally investigated?


Refer to the DPP!


----------



## MrSki (Nov 6, 2019)

I think it was someone getting the end with shit on it from this story in The Times.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Nov 6, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Just as an aside, I wonder how shitting on someone works as a business plan?



 

Quite well, apparently


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> a leftwinger will walk it.



I thought there were going to be two deputy leader posts?


----------



## killer b (Nov 6, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I thought there were going to be two deputy leader posts?


I think that was a proposal being mooted to neutralise Tom Watson. With him having neutralised himself I expect it's something that will be quietly forgotten about.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 6, 2019)

He has been pissing into the tent for so long now.


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 6, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Ask them who they think this person is.
> 
> View attachment 189194



It’s my father in law in 1962!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 6, 2019)

lol best news all day


----------



## Grace Johnson (Nov 6, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Seems somewhat unusual; I was under the impression that such status was always considered potentially higher at times of significant electoral events?



Tends to be only if there is a precieved domestic threat. The last raise of the threat level was due to isis having massive resources at the time. That has now diminished after various defeats in Syria. That's why it was downgraded. 

Also they evaluate the threat level over 6 months before they downgrade it. It can go up quickly after a change in world events or a terror attack but downgrading it is a long process. The election wouldn't have even been able to be taken in to account during the time frame the decision was made in.


----------



## belboid (Nov 6, 2019)

Williamson is standing as an independent.


----------



## belboid (Nov 7, 2019)

Just thought.  Galloway was going to stand in West Brom to oppose Watson.  I hope he's put his papers in already


----------



## moochedit (Nov 7, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Theresa May is stepping down too.
> 
> ETA I thinks this is bollocks cos I can't find any confirmation.





danny la rouge said:


> I’ve been looking around and there’s nothing. If it was even just likely it’d be bigger news than Watson.



No idea if it's true but not many ex-pm's stay on for long as backbenchers do they? I'd be more surprised if she does stand again.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 7, 2019)

Maybe the call of the wheatfield is strong. Like Frodo and the Shire.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> Williamson is standing as an independent.
> 
> View attachment 189247


Won't even keep his deposit


----------



## belboid (Nov 7, 2019)

moochedit said:


> No idea if it's true but not many ex-pm's stay on for long as backbenchers do they? I'd be more surprised if she does stand again.


Heath was the last one to stay on for an election after he'd lost. Hung on for years just to annoy Thatcher.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> Williamson is standing as an independent.
> 
> View attachment 189247


There's commitment -  I will only stay in the party I pretend to believe in if I can be an mp.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> Williamson is standing as an independent.
> 
> View attachment 189247



He's just been on Sky News saying he is standing down, Corbyn isn't fit to be PM, and people should vote for Johnson.


----------



## Plumdaff (Nov 7, 2019)

Plaid, Greens, and Lib Dem electoral pact. I think that's remarkably stupid of Plaid. The areas they want to be competitive in aren't jam packed with 'Sensible Centrists', and it'll put off left voters fed up with Welsh Labour.


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 7, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> He's just been on Sky News saying he is standing down, Corbyn isn't fit to be PM, and people should vote for Johnson.


interesting take on "social justice, internationalism and socialism"


----------



## Badgers (Nov 7, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> He's just been on Sky News saying he is standing down, Corbyn isn't fit to be PM, and people should vote for Johnson.


Shocking


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 7, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> He's just been on Sky News saying he is standing down, Corbyn isn't fit to be PM, and people should vote for Johnson.


You sure you are not getting Williamson confused with Austin? There is nothing on the Sky News front page on Williamson.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 7, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> You sure you are not getting Williamson confused with Austin? There is nothing on the Sky News front page on Williamson.



Fuck, yes, I am.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 7, 2019)

Neither corbyn nor Johnson- and Swinson can fuck off as well


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 7, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> He's just been on Sky News saying he is standing down, Corbyn isn't fit to be PM, and people should vote for Johnson.



Has anyone told him how many bankers support the conservatives?


----------



## teqniq (Nov 7, 2019)

Heh.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 7, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Plaid, Greens, and Lib Dem electoral pact. I think that's remarkably stupid of Plaid. The areas they want to be competitive in aren't jam packed with 'Sensible Centrists', and it'll put off left voters fed up with Welsh Labour.


Both PC and Greens are total mugs


> The majority of candidates given a free run will be Lib Dems given that the party had 20 MPs when parliament was dissolved this week, against four for Plaid Cymru and one for the Greens.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Heh.
> 
> View attachment 189261


Someone should do a "million pixel" version ...


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 7, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Plaid, Greens, and Lib Dem electoral pact. I think that's remarkably stupid of Plaid. The areas they want to be competitive in aren't jam packed with 'Sensible Centrists', and it'll put off left voters fed up with Welsh Labour.



Very generous of Swinson to let someone else have a little chance in the middle of her glorious sweep to government isn't it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Plaid, Greens, and Lib Dem electoral pact. I think that's remarkably stupid of Plaid. The areas they want to be competitive in aren't jam packed with 'Sensible Centrists', and it'll put off left voters fed up with Welsh Labour.


The 'party of wales' not standing in every welsh constituency is lunacy. Even the remain alliance bit doesn't wash - I know price wanted a revoke position but official plaid stance is second ref, which is contrary to libdem position of revoke


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

Also just had the amusing realisation that dexter is now formally in an alliance with the libdems, lol


----------



## andysays (Nov 7, 2019)

Subsequent to Williamson announcing he's standing as an independent, he has now asked Labour not to stand a candidate, claiming it would be *their* fault if the vote is split and the Tories win the seat...


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> Williamson has now announced he's standing as an independent, and has asked Labour not to stand a candidate, claiming it would be *their* fault if the vote is split and the Tories win the seat...


By Their, does he mean “the Jews”?


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 7, 2019)

Many Welsh indy supporters are against this, libdems are a unionist party.  FPTP makes for strange bedfellows at times.

In the longer run it should be positive because they'll stab PC in the back down the line, that's guaranteed.

libdems are now, allegedly, pro-Welsh indy but anti-Scots indy.


----------



## andysays (Nov 7, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> By Their, does he mean “the Jews”?


Probably (he actually puts the blame on the Labour NEC, it was me who abbreviated to 'their'. Maybe *I'm *blaming the Jews  )


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

by 'allegedly' do you mean 'not'?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> Probably (he actually puts the blame on the Labour NEC, it was me who abbreviate to 'their'. )


I know. I was making a joke.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> by 'allegedly' do you mean 'not'?


I don't believe that they are pro-Welsh indy, no.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> Williamson is standing as an independent.
> 
> View attachment 189247



Bad news for labour, they won that seat by a gnat's bollock last time IIRC. That does of course mean that Williamson has only been local MP for two years and is unlikely to take a huge personal vote with him.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Heh.
> 
> View attachment 189261


Things like this are telling.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Many Welsh indy supporters are against this, libdems are a unionist party.  FPTP makes for strange bedfellows at times.
> 
> In the longer run it should be positive because they'll stab PC in the back down the line, that's guaranteed.
> 
> libdems are now, allegedly, pro-Welsh indy but anti-Scots indy.


So you're saying it's a nazi-soviet style pact and you're not going to rip your party card up over it? It's 1939 and you're  Palme Dutt.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Bad news for labour, they won that seat by a gnat's bollock last time IIRC. That does of course mean that Williamson has only been local MP for two years and is unlikely to take a huge personal vote with him.


He was first elected in 2010 - but i agree that he's unlikely to have much of a personal vote, at least not one that is significantly larger than his personal anti-Williamson vote.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> The 'party of wales' not standing in every welsh constituency is lunacy. Even the remain alliance bit doesn't wash - I know price wanted a revoke position but official plaid stance is second ref, which is contrary to libdem position of revoke


This is shocking news. More so than Williamson urging votes for Boris.


----------



## rekil (Nov 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> Probably (he actually puts the blame on the Labour NEC, it was me who abbreviated to 'their'. Maybe *I'm *blaming the Jews  )


It's pretty clear who he blames in his statement.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 7, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Very generous of Swinson to let someone else have a little chance in the middle of her glorious sweep to government isn't it.


Clinging to her coat tails...


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I know price wanted a revoke position but official plaid stance is second ref, which is contrary to libdem position of revoke


Thought Swinson wanted a second ref and if it didn't go her way she was going to ignore the result.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 7, 2019)

copliker said:


> It's pretty clear who he blames in his statement.
> 
> View attachment 189267


Oh, ffs.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 7, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Thought Swinson wanted a second ref and if it didn't go her way she was going to ignore the result.


Yeah that would be a great policy, upfront, in your face, fuck you half of the UK.


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, ffs.


At least this makes it explicit that the only people left supporting him are supporting an open racist.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 7, 2019)

The "Remain Alliance" (Green, Plaid, Lib Dems) has released the list of seats that will be uncontested by other members of the alliance:


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> libdems are now, allegedly, pro-Welsh indy but anti-Scots indy.



No they're not. Libdems position is that they can work with plaid as plaid don't have an official position of independence but can't work with SNP who do. And they're right for a change, official plaid stance is further powers from westminster


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

I wonder why Penistone is on the Greens list? The Greens have never stood there and it's a Labour/Tory marginal - have they just included every seat they don't bother standing in or something?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 7, 2019)

I loved this quote in the Guardian in response to Tom Watson's resignation. 

"After the news was announced, one senior party figure spoke of “a great sense of desolation and abandonment sweeping the moderates". "


----------



## strung out (Nov 7, 2019)

Lib Dems not standing in Bristol West, which they held until four years ago.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

Williamson is doing a sort of Angela Smith isn't he? He wants that 22 grand.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wonder why Penistone is on the Greens list? The Greens have never stood there and it's a Labour/Tory marginal - have they just included every seat they don't bother standing in or something?


Is it a way of clearing the decks for the Lab Con fight?


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

I guess he's got a limited chance of an offer of a job from Johnson, so fair enough


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Is it a way of clearing the decks for the Lab Con fight?


But as part of a 'remain pact' that presumably involves telling their supporters to vote Lib Dem? if they just wanted to clear the decks they could have just stood aside and told them to vote Labour, like they did in Calder Valley.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Williamson is doing a sort of Angela Smith isn't he? He wants that 22 grand.


Needs it.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 7, 2019)

strung out said:


> Lib Dems not standing in Bristol West, which they held until four years ago.


My constituency.
Thangam Debbonaire seems to have it nailed now.

If I knew enough to help with canvassing I would have to help in Kingswood where my Tory family live


----------



## andysays (Nov 7, 2019)

copliker said:


> It's pretty clear who he blames in his statement.
> 
> View attachment 189267


That's really quite something, and hopefully will be the end of anyone other than loons claiming Williamson isn't really an anti semite


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Needs it.


he'll piss it away in a month


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Heh.
> 
> View attachment 189261




Hope this gets memed


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 7, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Really?  You know...you can search for people saying things on urban, yeah?
> 
> Even in the Wales subforum.
> 
> ...



No you aren't you fucking moron, Plaid Cymru is a political party, it isn't a country. The majority of Welsh people are not members of PC. The majority of Welsh people don't even vote PC.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 7, 2019)

He’s got some front that McDonnell-he just used the S*****ism word in his Q&A


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 7, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> I don’t know why they have assigned cleverly the role of fronting their fuck ups - he is a charmless unimaginative wanker - he’s a patsy and doesn’t realise he is being made to look like a twat on a daily basis



I suspect that's the answer - he's willing.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 7, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> No you aren't you fucking moron, Plaid Cymru is a political party, it isn't a country. The majority of Welsh people are not members of PC. The majority of Welsh people don't even vote PC.



But, but, but, he's a Welsh warrior - having joined Plaid for free, for a few weeks.


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> No you aren't you fucking moron, Plaid Cymru is a political party, it isn't a country. The majority of Welsh people are not members of PC. The majority of Welsh people don't even vote PC.


please, leave this nonsense now.


----------



## Plumdaff (Nov 7, 2019)

Jesus, that list. So Cardiff Plaid are going to be telling the students in Cardiff Central to kick out their Labour MP for a Lib Dem? Way to build on that emerging radical independence movement


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> please, leave this nonsense now.



Sorry hadn't logged in for a couple of days.


----------



## 03gills (Nov 7, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> He's just been on Sky News saying he is standing down, Corbyn isn't fit to be PM, and people should vote for Johnson.



That was Ian Austin, not Williamson. Personally i think he's a fucking idiot for standing against Labour next month (& almost certainly splitting the vote) but let's get our facts straight here.

I reckon Labour should simply stand down in Derby North & let Williamson stand as the sole left candidate, then if he fucks it, there's no excuses. Whereas if Labour field a candidate, both sides will be shouting about 'splitting the vote' for all eternity.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 7, 2019)

I suspect Soubry is looking forward to getting her old job back in Derby North.
Williamson standing alone won't win but he will certainly keep Labour out in a seat they need to win


----------



## 03gills (Nov 7, 2019)

Honestly I'm surprised Watson has gone with a little fuss as he has. He's been a troublemaker in the party for so long that you'd assume he'd have left a huge steaming turd for Corbyn to clear up.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 7, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I suspect Soubry is looking forward to getting her old job back in Derby North.
> Williamson standing alone won't win but he will certainly keep Labour out in a seat they need to win



Certainly? How many votes do you think he's likely to win?

I doubt he's got any sort of significant personal vote at all tbh. Not many MPs do, despite what they like to think, and I don't see him being one of them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

03gills said:


> Honestly I'm surprised Watson has gone with a little fuss as he has. He's been a troublemaker in the party for so long that you'd assume he'd have left a huge steaming turd for Corbyn to clear up.


there's boris johnson still to be taken care of


----------



## belboid (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wonder why Penistone is on the Greens list? The Greens have never stood there and it's a Labour/Tory marginal - have they just included every seat they don't bother standing in or something?


It is bizarre. It's not even a quid pro quo for them standing down in Hallam (which would make some sense).  Something about A Smith making libs even more unpopular in that seat, maybe??


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I suspect Soubry is looking forward to getting her old job back in Derby North.
> Williamson standing alone won't win but he will certainly keep Labour out in a seat they need to win


Amanda Solloway?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 7, 2019)

03gills said:


> That was Ian Austin, not Williamson. Personally i think he's a fucking idiot for standing against Labour next month (& almost certainly splitting the vote) but let's get our facts straight here.



Always worth reading on a few posts before replying to a post made hours ago. 



MickiQ said:


> I suspect Soubry is looking forward to getting her old job back in Derby North.
> Williamson standing alone won't win but he will certainly keep Labour out in a seat they need to win



Not Soubry, Amanda Solloway.


----------



## colacubes (Nov 7, 2019)

Crispy said:


> The "Remain Alliance" (Green, Plaid, Lib Dems) has released the list of seats that will be uncontested by other members of the alliance:




I was surprised to see Dulwich and W Norwood (my constituency) on the list as we're very remainy here and I thought the Lib Dems would fancy their chances, but it makes a certain amount of sense thinking about it as the Greens are the main opposition party on the council and we've got a couple of green councillors in the ward and some others have come very close to being elected. Still nailed on for Labour I would think though.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Jesus, that list. So Cardiff Plaid are going to be telling the students in Cardiff Central to kick out their Labour MP for a Lib Dem? Way to build on that emerging radical independence movement


Against Jo Stevens, a firm remain soft left MP more alligned with Plaid's politics in a constituency that, while you couldn't call it marginal based on last election with libdems in 3rd, was a libdem seat until 2010 and has a heavy libdem base (plenty of LibDem signs up every election particularly around posh lakeside)


----------



## Sue (Nov 7, 2019)

03gills said:


> I reckon Labour should simply stand down in Derby North & let Williamson stand as the sole left candidate, then if he fucks it, there's no excuses. Whereas if Labour field a candidate, both sides will be shouting about 'splitting the vote' for all eternity.


What?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 7, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Always worth reading on a few posts before replying to a post made hours ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Not Soubry, Amanda Solloway.


Apologies to you and butchersapron you are correct my age is catching up with me


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

My reading is that Williamson is using the threat of standing to leverage himself into a well paid secure position somewhere in the labour movement if he withdraws and accepts he won't be getting his 22 grand or whatever it is. Then galloway will probably go and stand instead anyway.


----------



## chilango (Nov 7, 2019)

Could come back to haunt them. Anecdotally the ultra-remainers I know are split between soft Tories voting LibDem and soft Laborites voting, er, Labour.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 7, 2019)

Labour can't stand aside in Derby North or anywhere else for the same reason that the Tories can't form a pact with the Farage cultists. Both major parties are fighting the election with the objective of winning it.
Smaller parties can form alliances since despite Swinson's ranting they know they won't do so. The 2 big ones need to campaign on the assumption they will and will want guaranteed votes in the HoC


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 7, 2019)

Crispy said:


> The "Remain Alliance" (Green, Plaid, Lib Dems) has released the list of seats that will be uncontested by other members of the alliance:





My constituency is on that list, where the incumbent Tory MP got 55% of the vote last time, 59% time before. Greens and Plaid don't stand anyway. So, it's just, well, really Lib Demmy...


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 7, 2019)

chilango said:


> Could come back to haunt them. Anecdotally the ultra-remainers I know are split between soft Tories voting LibDem and soft Laborites voting, er, Labour.


It strikes me that there are only 6 million "ultra-remainers" in total - i.e. those who signed the "revoke" petition ... about the same number who voted for Forage's party in the euros - and only about a million people turned out in London where there are millions of remainers who only needed to step outside their doors ...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Certainly? How many votes do you think he's likely to win?
> 
> I doubt he's got any sort of significant personal vote at all tbh. Not many MPs do, despite what they like to think, and I don't see him being one of them.



Derby North was a big target for day-tripper activists from the various safe Labour seats nearby in Nottingham etc. I would expect to see the same happening this time round.


----------



## belboid (Nov 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> My reading is that Williamson is using the threat of standing to leverage himself into a well paid secure position somewhere in the labour movement if he withdraws and accepts he won't be getting his 22 grand or whatever it is. Then galloway will probably go and stand instead anyway.


Doubt that, tbh. He doesn't have the support within any particular body. Any group affiliated to Labour would get untold shit for appointing him, so wont. With a bit of luck him n Galloway will cobble together some load of shit and take a few of the nutters with them.


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> It strikes me that there are only 6 million "ultra-remainers" in total - i.e. those who signed the "revoke" petition ... about the same number who voted for Forage's party in the euros - and only about a million people turned out in London where there are millions of remainers who only needed to step outside their doors ...


The entry requirements for ultra remainer is much higher than 'spent 20 seconds signing a petition last year's tbh. It's much lower than 6 million.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> Doubt that, tbh. He doesn't have the support within any particular body. Any group affiliated to Labour would get untold shit for appointing him, so wont. With a bit of luck him n Galloway will cobble together some load of shit and take a few of the nutters with them.


It might not pay off for him but that's not a reason for him to try it. What's he got to lose, either it'll work and he'll get bought off or he'll get his angela-smith money if it doesn't. Either way, we'll never get any proof of his motivation i suppose.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 7, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> If I knew enough to help with canvassing I would have to help in Kingswood where my Tory family live


I'm not sure if this is serious or not. But you really don't need to know much to canvas, most of it is just increasing party visibility, letting people know that your party wants their vote. (And most people are generally pretty polite).


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 7, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not sure if this is serious or not. But you really don't need to know much to canvas, most of it is just increasing party visibility, letting people know that your party wants their vote. (And most people are generally pretty polite).


I'll see how I feel when my membership details show up.
I can't even get onto the official Facebook pages yet....


----------



## TopCat (Nov 7, 2019)

Sue said:


> What?


Yeah its bonkers Bruno.


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> I'll see how I feel when my membership details show up.


Why wait? Canvassing sessions are openly advertised and they don't check your membership card. 

That said Kingswood looks safeish tory to me - you'd be better looking on the Momentum marginals map and seeing where's more urgent in your area...


----------



## belboid (Nov 7, 2019)

Crispy said:


> The "Remain Alliance" (Green, Plaid, Lib Dems) has released the list of seats that will be uncontested by other members of the alliance:



Aliiance already collapsing as the Libdem canddiate for Pontypridd says he'll now run as an independent


----------



## andysays (Nov 7, 2019)

LibDem in Pontypridd running as independent after being told to stand aside for Plaid


----------



## andysays (Nov 7, 2019)

Snap!


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

lol


----------



## campanula (Nov 7, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not sure if this is serious or not. But you really don't need to know much to canvas, most of it is just increasing party visibility, letting people know that your party wants their vote. (And most people are generally pretty polite).


I would definitely go out doorstepping but I am not sure that I would be allowed. I left the LP in 1992  -  but rejoined during the leadership contest...and was  kicked out shortly after (we will not be renewing your party membership....pffft!)
However, my town is very marginal and the anti-Corbyn meme is absolutely toxic. I have fallen out with all but 2 others in my dogwalking group...and  both of them are pug owners so I have to walk around the graveyard  at snail's pace with snorfling piglets (the pugs, not the owners). Anyway, I fucking loathe the Lib-Dems and I am certain I can cut back on sweary ranting but action, I feel is needed to counteract despair.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 7, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> My constituency.
> Thangam Debbonaire seems to have it nailed now.
> 
> If I knew enough to help with canvassing I would have to help in Kingswood where my Tory family live





killer b said:


> Why wait? Canvassing sessions are openly advertised and they don't check your membership card.
> 
> That said Kingswood looks safeish tory to me - you'd be better looking on the Momentum marginals map and seeing where's more urgent in your area...



Kingswood is one of those seats labour need to be winning back. It's an area with a reputation for bucking national trends and being v independent. Not in the brighton green sense but in w/c bloody mindedness sense. (They still ended up with a private school oxbridge MP mind). The labour candidate does seem to have that sort of bolshy spark that might appeal to that constituency. How she pitches herself on brexit in this bristol leave seat (higher than national average at that) might be crucial given the current tory MP is opposed to leaving the EU.


----------



## a_chap (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> Why wait? Canvassing sessions are openly advertised and they don't check your membership card.
> 
> That said Kingswood looks safeish tory to me - you'd be better looking on the Momentum marginals map and seeing where's more urgent in your area...



I thought about doing some canvassing.

But then I met the prospective candidate last week and took an instant and very strong dislike to them


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

a_chap said:


> I thought about doing some canvassing.
> 
> But then I met the prospective candidate last week and took an instant and very strong dislike to them


go to a different constituency then


----------



## a_chap (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> go to a different constituency then



But, but... that's _*nearly three miles away *_for goodness sake!


----------



## kebabking (Nov 7, 2019)

a_chap said:


> But, but... that's _*nearly three miles away *_for goodness sake!



I know it's a bit of a drag, but I'd put good money on the sex pest Tory in Wyre Forest getting a run for his money this time - remainy, no hoper, sacked by TM for getting his staff to buy sex toys on his behalf, never seen in the constituency, and just an all round sleezebag.

Worcester city and WF are the only places worth pounding the streets round here.

Unfortunately the WF Labour candidate is also a bit of a tosser - he nudges my Spidey sences for being a bit of a conspiraloon...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

a_chap said:


> But, but... that's _*nearly three miles away *_for goodness sake!


i can picture it now

a_chap: i'm canvassing on behalf of the labour party. can we rely on your vote?
voter: you're not from round here, i've seen you three miles away in the next constituency, i've never seen you round here before.
a_chap: the candidate here's really good...
voter: so why aren't you canvassing where you live?
a_chap: well, the candidate there, they've got all the canvassers they need, so i thought i'd come and give this candidate a bit of support.
voter: are you sure that's really why you're here?
a_chap: well, yes
voter: it's just you're the 14th canvasser in the past two days from the next constituency


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 7, 2019)

My LibDem candidate is the same woman who ran in 2015 when she got 1887 votes and in 2017 when she got 1870 votes so I suspect that she will get about the same this time. The Labour candidate got 10x that but the Tory romped home with 60% of the vote. 
She doesn't seem to have announced her candidacy yet but I am largely resigned to the fact that she will be my MP come 13 Dec


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> My LibDem candidate is the same woman who ran in 2015 when she got 1887 votes and in 2017 when she got 1870 votes so I suspect that she will get about the same this time. The Labour candidate got 10x that but the Tory romped home with 60% of the vote.
> She doesn't seem to have announced her candidacy yet but I am largely resigned to the fact that she will be my MP come 13 Dec


my prediction? she'll get 1853 votes


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 7, 2019)

What the fuck is going on with the Green Party by the way?  We're supposed to be in the midst of a climate crisis.  XR are out on the streets and there is doom and gloom predictions everywhere.  As the self-appointed voice for the environment should this not be the time they are shouting the loudest and fighting hardest?  Instead they're standing aside so parties who don't really give much of a fuck about the environment can try and stop Brexit.

Is the environment less important than a largely technical argument over immigration, trade and dispute resolution?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 7, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> What the fuck is going on with the Green Party by the way?  We're supposed to be in the midst of a climate crisis.  XR are out on the streets and there is doom and gloom predictions everywhere.  As the self-appointed voice for the environment should this not be the time they are shouting the loudest and fighting hardest?  Instead they're standing aside so parties who don't really give much of a fuck about the environment can try and stop Brexit.
> 
> Is the environment less important than a largely technical argument over immigration, trade and dispute resolution?



To the Green Party? 

Nah.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 7, 2019)

They're shit and they know they are. Mild-mannered Jeremy Vine tied one in knots yesterday by simply asking if he was in favour of parking charges at rural hospitals.


----------



## a_chap (Nov 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i can picture it now
> 
> a_chap: i'm canvassing on behalf of the labour party. can we rely on your vote?
> voter: you're not from round here, i've seen you three miles away in the next constituency, i've never seen you round here before.
> ...


----------



## andysays (Nov 7, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> What the fuck is going on with the Green Party by the way?  We're supposed to be in the midst of a climate crisis.  XR are out on the streets and there is doom and gloom predictions everywhere.  As the self-appointed voice for the environment should this not be the time they are shouting the loudest and fighting hardest?  Instead they're standing aside so* parties who don't really give much of a fuck about the environment* can try and stop Brexit...


But, but, but
15:05 Swinson focuses on green agenda


> Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson has also been out campaigning today, pushing the party's green agenda on a visit to the West Country. During a tour of a Forest School in Welton, Somerset, Ms Swinson says the Lib Dems are committed to environmental issues and are looking to gain seats in south-west England. Ms Swinson chatted to staff and children at the eco-friendly nursery and joined a group *toasting marshmallows on a fire*.


Can't get much more committed to the environment than that


----------



## JimW (Nov 7, 2019)

Interviewed later, one of the children said it was one of the biggest melts she'd ever been in the presence of.


----------



## JimW (Nov 7, 2019)

Just seen the Yellow filth are standing aside for the Greens in super marginal Stroud (couldn't access the lists upthread), might actually help Dave Drew keep the seat.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 7, 2019)

JimW said:


> Just seen the Yellow filth are standing aside for the Greens in super marginal Stroud (couldn't access the lists upthread), might actually help Dave Drew keep the seat.



There's a lot of places where a resurgent Lib Dem vote might actually massively help Labour to be honest. They seem to be pitching squarely at Tory remain voters.


----------



## a_chap (Nov 7, 2019)

I think this election is all much too complicated.

I recommend that all seats are determined by the candidates taking part in duels.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 7, 2019)

a_chap said:


> I think this election is all much too complicated.
> 
> I recommend that all seats are determined by the candidates taking part in duels.



No weapons all-ins. Bagsie NE Somerset!


----------



## chilango (Nov 7, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> There's a lot of places where a resurgent Lib Dem vote might actually massively help Labour to be honest. They seem to be pitching squarely at Tory remain voters.



Yep. Although I think they think they're pitching at Labour "moderates".


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

a_chap said:


> I think this election is all much too complicated.
> 
> I recommend that all seats are determined by the candidates taking part in duels.


Only if they both get to shoot first


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Only if they both get to shoot first


Make sure neither of them delopes by tying them to stakes and using a firing squad


----------



## kabbes (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> But as part of a 'remain pact' that presumably involves telling their supporters to vote Lib Dem? if they just wanted to clear the decks they could have just stood aside and told them to vote Labour, like they did in Calder Valley.


It’s a bit of a stretch, but this way it would only be the Greens standing aside for Labour — the LDs would have already stood aside for the Greens.  That way, Swinson can maintain her anti-Corbyn stance and yet still not contest this marginal.
Just a thought.  Probably over-complicating it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Make sure neither of them delopes by tying them to stakes and using a firing squad


After all who amongst us doesn't believe in democracy and equality of opportunity


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

kabbes said:


> It’s a bit of a stretch, but this way it would only be the Greens standing aside for Labour — the LDs would have already stood aside for the Greens.  That way, Swinson can maintain her anti-Corbyn stance and yet still not contest this marginal.
> Just a thought.  Probably over-complicating it.


I might have confused matters sorry - the Greens are standing aside for the LDs in Penistone, despite neither of them getting anywhere last time and it being a Lab/Tory marginal


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Make sure neither of them delopes by tying them to stakes and using a firing squad


New word I have learned today.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 7, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> There's a lot of places where a resurgent Lib Dem vote might actually massively help Labour to be honest. They seem to be pitching squarely at Tory remain voters.


And putting them off with the bonkers "revoke" stance.


----------



## belboid (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> I might have confused matters sorry - the Greens are standing aside for the LDs in Penistone, despite neither of them getting anywhere last time and it being a Lab/Tory marginal


I think you may have said that in the first place and I confused matters!  Not sure now. Either way, pretty pointless.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 7, 2019)

It's just part of Jo Swinson's grand plan to be our next PM.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> I might have confused matters sorry - the Greens are standing aside for the LDs in Penistone, despite neither of them getting anywhere last time and it being a Lab/Tory marginal


Maybe only people inside the Westminster bubble can see the advantages of this non-aggression pact for anyone but the lib dems.

Maybe they said there's no point everyone losing deposits in all the seats


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe only people inside the Westminster bubble can see the advantages of this non-aggression pact for anyone but the lib dems.
> 
> Maybe they said there's no point everyone losing deposits in all the seats


i think there's advantages for the tories in some seats too tbf


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 7, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No weapons all-ins. Bagsie NE Somerset!



I'll sub you a tenner for the deposit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 7, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'll sub you a tenner for the deposit.



ta, I will of course be going through his pockets whilst he’s on the deck...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 7, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ta, I will of course be going through his pockets whilst he’s on the deck...


All you will get is some everton mints and a hand that smells of dusty piss


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> i think there's advantages for the tories in some seats too tbf


I meant as parties to the deal rather than the tories, but that's a good point


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ta, I will of course be going through his pockets whilst he’s in the dock...


C4U


----------



## belboid (Nov 7, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Good to hear about Godsiff. Suspect Salma Yaqoob might be lined up for the seat?


Guess who's running as an independent?

MP deselected over LGBT row stands as independent


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> Guess who's running as an independent?
> 
> MP deselected over LGBT row stands as independent


Difficult to know where to begin with all the shit going on there ... there were even far right nutters "defending" LGBT rights against Muslim parents ...

Strongly remain though ...


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2019)

'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' chant at packed manchester rally, not sure good idea.

Corbyn sharp, on fire, i wonder why he couldn't be like this at PMQ's


----------



## killer b (Nov 7, 2019)

Why?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 7, 2019)

treelover said:


> Corbyn sharp, on fire, i wonder why he couldn't be like this at PMQ's


He _was_ like that at PMQs, regularly.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 7, 2019)

I'd assumed it was a "My Fair Lady" reference


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

treelover said:


> 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' chant at packed manchester rally, not sure good idea.
> 
> Corbyn sharp, on fire, i wonder why he couldn't be like this at PMQ's


Do you watch pmqs?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 7, 2019)

belboid said:


> Guess who's running as an independent?
> 
> MP deselected over LGBT row stands as independent


He's wasting his money, he could take 20-25% of the Labour Vote which is probably impossible and they would still walk it.
As for this LD/Green/PC pact, I really don't know about this pact, it might help some of them win a few seats or it might be a colossal waste of time, I will watch with interest what happens. It worked in Brecon but that was probably a special case since the Tories scored a massive own goal by taking the piss and re-running the same candidate that had been been ousted for being a crook.
Pacts are a new thing in British Politics and it seems a bit unnatural, it's also based on one unproven assumption that people care so much about Brexit they will put all their other concerns aside over it. It is no doubt the most important issue in this election but it isn't the only one.
I can well imagine that if you're a committed Green voter for instance, you might decide you're not going to put your cross against a party who you don't think fully represents your views and just sit it out.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 7, 2019)

a_chap said:


> I think this election is all much too complicated.
> 
> I recommend that all seats are determined by the candidates taking part in duels.


Thunderdome, two men enter, one man leaves.


----------



## Plumdaff (Nov 7, 2019)

I've just had a lot of Plaid folk online tell me that telling students to vote Lib Dem is OK because education is devolved. Because a/ nothing is going to put pressure on Drakeford to get radical like more Lib Dems in Westminster preventing a Corbyn Labour government and b/ fuck those English students voting in Cardiff in their droves, eh? I'm pro indy, but Jesus, not this shower.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Heh.
> 
> View attachment 189261


----------



## friedaweed (Nov 7, 2019)

I'm really worried about this 'Manger danger' scenario. What will the tea towel sellers eat this winter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> I'm really worried about this 'Manger danger' scenario. What will the tea towel sellers eat this winter.


Roots in the woods

Next


----------



## Wilf (Nov 7, 2019)

A tory finally, actually resigns as candidate over his rape comments:
Conrad quits as Tory candidate over rape comments

So that's a candidate gone and a cabinet minister resigned. Astonishes me mogg hasn't had more made of his vile views on rape victims and abortion. I'm not sure whether his or conrad's views are worse (or how you could make that judgement tbh). Maybe mogg's version is so far outside of the range of even anti-abortionist's views that they fail to bring the ceiling down on him.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 8, 2019)

Vote for the party that ISN'T interested in only a quick buck or the one that has a record of running you down and insulting you every day. The media tells you that these cretins are the good guys and they decide that the ones who WANT to help you are the bad guys because 'we the media' decided it.

It does seem childish, but that's how it is.

Those who actually want to put in the work to serve you because they are enthusiastic about doing a meaningful job of work, whose record is constantly attacked while the actual malefactors get praise and an easy ride from same media, and who go on the political campaign trail WITH THEIR NANNY; are apparently the credible ones.

As hard as life is in Britain in 2019; these guys hate you, laugh at you and destroy your lives. I know which side I am on. My own, my kid's own, and not ever theirs who couldn't give any fucks about you.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 8, 2019)

andysays said:


> But, but, but
> 15:05 Swinson focuses on green agenda
> 
> Can't get much more committed to the environment than that


----------



## andysays (Nov 8, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> He's wasting his money, he could take 20-25% of the Labour Vote which is probably impossible and they would still walk it...


But presumably he will ensure he gets the golden handshake payoff which Angela Smith was so annoyed she'd missed out on.

How much are the two figures in comparison, I wonder?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2019)

Fez909 said:


>


Someone should remind her the phrase is a poke in the eye with a sharp stick


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 8, 2019)

Not sure if already been mentioned on here but I was listening to BBC1 news the other day who reported the Green Party are pledging to spend £100 billion on tackling the climate emergency.

Claim they are going to borrow £91 billion and get the rest off taxing big businesses.

I wonder if this means I’d get a free electric van?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 8, 2019)

belboid said:


> Guess who's running as an independent?
> 
> MP deselected over LGBT row stands as independent



Yes. It’s enough to make me vote labour. 

Godsiff needs routing. Lazy, useless and in the pocket of reactionaries


----------



## maomao (Nov 8, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I wonder if this means I’d get a free electric van?


No but they'll buy you a bicycle.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 8, 2019)

maomao said:


> No but they'll buy you a bicycle.



 Already have one.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Not sure if already been mentioned on here but I was listening to BBC1 news the other day who reported the Green Party are pledging to spend £100 billion on tackling the climate emergency.
> 
> Claim they are going to borrow £91 billion and get the rest off taxing big businesses.
> 
> I wonder if this means I’d get a free electric van?


Green party suggests investment in environmental issues shocker. 

And no, it wouldn't mean you'd get a free electric van. Hth.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Green party suggests investment in environmental issues shocker.
> 
> And no, it wouldn't mean you'd get a free electric van. Hth.



Pretty sure it’s 100 billion a year and to spend half a trillion in 5 years - I think you might get two electric vans


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

alex_ said:


> Pretty sure it’s 100 billion a year and to spend half a trillion in 5 years - I think you might get two electric vans


So a similar amount to the quantitative easing done in response to the banking crisis. Climate crisis not so important really.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 8, 2019)

IIRC
Greens have said an extra 100 billion a year
Torys have said an extra 20 billion a year
Labour have said 55 billion a year (+ an extra 400 billion over the next ten years earmarked on green and social projects)

ETA: How much has each party pledged to spend if they win the election?
+ This must be the climate election - Greens


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

Be interested to hear alternative ways to tackle the climate emergency. Ways that don't involve investment.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Be interested to hear alternative ways to tackle the climate emergency. Ways that don't involve investment.



Mass suicide?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2019)

Just waiting for him to pull on the string-backs and crank up the Roachford...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> Mass suicide?


Some would say that this would appear to be the current most-favoured solution.

I'm going to be charitable and take Marty1's post as a dryly satirical poke at the idea that we can create collective solutions to problems such as the climate emergency through the electoral systems of liberal democracies, geared as they are to appeal to short-term 'freebies' presented as benefits at an individual level, feeding the rampant atomised consumerism that led us here in the first place and beyond which it is simply not possible to appeal.


----------



## andysays (Nov 8, 2019)

There are probably worse ways to spend £X billion than incentives for a mass switching from diesel to electric vehicles over the next few years, TBH


----------



## Supine (Nov 8, 2019)

andysays said:


> There are probably worse ways to spend £X billion than incentives for a mass switching from diesel to electric vehicles over the next few years, TBH



certainly better than cruise missiles


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2019)

Supine said:


> certainly better than cruise missiles


Yes, can't be long before we get to the bit of the tory/media grid where we hear how the man who hates Britain would never press the button. Maybe that's next week?


----------



## andysays (Nov 8, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yes, can't be long before we get to the bit of the tory/media grid where we hear how the man who hates Britain would never press the button. Maybe that's next week?


I expect they're saving their trump card for when it will really count


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

Yeah well, I'm against borrowing. I think everyone should be saving. If nobody borrowed and everybody saved, we could all live off the interest. Sorted.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2019)

andysays said:


> I expect they're saving their trump card for when it will really count


The convergence tactic, eh?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2019)

Do we reckon we know the hierarchy of negative attack lines?
Is the nuke button/pacifism at the top?
Presumably the loving the jew killing beardy terrorists is a bit further down...being how that's all a bit remote for workingclasstownman?
Then there's the up the RA stuff.
Hmmm so much to look forward to.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Some would say that this would appear to be the current most-favoured solution.
> 
> I'm going to be charitable and take Marty1's post as a dryly satirical poke at the idea that we can create collective solutions to problems such as the climate emergency through the electoral systems of liberal democracies, geared as they are to appeal to short-term 'freebies' presented as benefits at an individual level, feeding the rampant atomised consumerism that led us here in the first place and beyond which it is simply not possible to appeal.


He doesn't think there's a climate emergency at all.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Be interested to hear alternative ways to tackle the climate emergency. Ways that don't involve investment.


There are really only 3 ways to tackle climate change

1.Sufficient technological/scientific Progress.
2.Going back to a simpler lifestyle abandoning such things as modern tranport and agricultural methods.
3. Doing nothing and letting Nature take care of the problem (as it ultimately will)

The problem with the first one is that it will take massive investment in both capital and political will, so there is reluctance to do it
The problem with the second one is that there are now simply too many of us to be able to feed and support if we do that so human numbers will need to fall drastically and there is natural reluctance to be one of the numbers reduced.
The problem with the third is that Mother Nature truly doesn't give a shit about mankinds dreams and ambitions. The Earth and Life itself will survive climate change(it has done before and will do again) the question is will we.
I suspect in the longer run that ever increasing evidence of solution 3 will focus minds more on a combination of solutions 1 and 2.

But investment in fighting climate change is a good thing in and of itself, scientific progress, clean air, clean water and skilled good quality jobs are definitely nice to haves.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> There are really only 3 ways to tackle climate change
> 
> 1.Sufficient technological/scientific Progress.
> 2.Going back to a simpler lifestyle abandoning such things as modern tranport and agricultural methods.
> ...


Yeah, what is needed is ambition. Is £100 billion a year (just under 5% UK GDP) enough? It would be a start at least. 

At its peak, the Apollo space programme was employing nearly half a million people. They were engaged in a project with no immediate payoff beyond the glory of putting someone on the Moon. A climate emergency programme many times the size of the Apollo programme would have just about the biggest payoff imaginable. Madness not to do it.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 8, 2019)

If we have to assume that the climate emergency has it roots in the capitalist model ( yeah I know) then there will be a cost involved in making changes to the climate issue- glibly , digging shit up to them set fire to  still forms the basis of this model cos it’s cheap.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> If we have to assume that the climate emergency has it roots in the capitalist model ( yeah I know) then there will be a cost involved in making changes to the climate issue- glibly , digging shit up to them set fire to  still forms the basis of this model cos it’s cheap.


it's not cheap and that's what's being realised. not universally, and not as fast as may be desired, but the burning a leads to expense b is percolating through people's consciousness.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 8, 2019)

Ok , Not as cheap as it was then- the dig it and burn it mindset is still king.it cannot end well .


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> If we have to assume that the climate emergency has it roots in the capitalist model ( yeah I know) then there will be a cost involved in making changes to the climate issue- glibly , digging shit up to them set fire to  still forms the basis of this model cos it’s cheap.


Yes and no. Renewables like solar are starting to outperform the likes of coal now in terms of cost per unit of energy. But I agree with your basic point - we need to change our habits whether or not there is a cost, and to pay whatever that cost is. If only it were as simple as spending 5% GDP on the problem and thus solving it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Ok , Not as cheap as it was then- the dig it and burn it mindset is still king.it cannot end well .


it will end very badly


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 8, 2019)

gentlegreen said:


> And putting them off with the bonkers "revoke" stance.



*shrug* Its no more bonkers than telling people to vote again until they get the answer right. And I suspect that this 'never mind the proles just cancel the bloody thing' stance is actually fairly attractive to Tory voters in the South who live in 70% Remain constituencies and can't understand why this is happening anyway.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> *shrug* Its no more bonkers than telling people to vote again until they get the answer right.



Fucking ludicrous innit.  We only had a general election two years ago.
Take a look at what was happening before that - they've been having them every few years, and this goes back a couple of centuries.

They just won't respect the will of the people!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Be interested to hear alternative ways to tackle the climate emergency. Ways that don't involve investment.



If we scrap trident by firing nukes at random countries then carbon emissions will go right down and the ensuing nuclear winter will cool the planet down enough for wildlife to start to recover


----------



## treelover (Nov 8, 2019)

Lots of bluster from all parties, Sharmi Chakrabarti and then Faiza Shaheen just couldn't say what labour's immigration policy would be, it seems they are being cautious before the vote as they don't want to lose an element of their vote.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 8, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Do we reckon we know the hierarchy of negative attack lines?
> Is the nuke button/pacifism at the top?
> Presumably the loving the jew killing beardy terrorists is a bit further down...being how that's all a bit remote for workingclasstownman?
> Then there's the up the RA stuff.
> Hmmm so much to look forward to.


Also, allowing weeds to flourish on his allotment.  Metaphor for what Corbyn's Britain would be like. Contrast to 'boris' and his lusty up and at em positivity etc.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> At its peak, the Apollo space programme was employing nearly half a million people. They were engaged in a project with no immediate payoff beyond the glory of putting someone on the Moon. A climate emergency programme many times the size of the Apollo programme would have just about the biggest payoff imaginable. Madness not to do it.


One Million Climate Jobs
https://www.campaigncc.org/sites/data/files/Docs/one_million_climate_jobs_2014.pdf

"The One Million Climate Jobs report produced by the Campaign against Climate Change Trade Union group and backed by eight national unions shows that, for a relatively small amount, we can tackle all these problems. We can create a million secure Government jobs in renewable energy, in increasing energy efficiency by insulating homes and public buildings free of charge, in hugely expanding cheap public transport to get people and freight onto cleaner forms of transit, and in developing the "green skills" that we need through education and training.

A million decently paid Government jobs, and the spin-off of half a million additional jobs that this would create, could kick-start the economy. It is the alternative both to austerity and to Government inaction as the world slides towards climate catastrophe."

...thats 5 years old now but i think still influential on labours green deal (are details of that yet published?)


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Be interested to hear alternative ways to tackle the climate emergency. Ways that don't involve investment.


Plant more trees. Ideal time of year for collecting seeds.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

ska invita said:


> One Million Climate Jobs
> https://www.campaigncc.org/sites/data/files/Docs/one_million_climate_jobs_2014.pdf
> 
> "The One Million Climate Jobs report produced by the Campaign against Climate Change Trade Union group and backed by eight national unions shows that, for a relatively small amount, we can tackle all these problems. We can create a million secure Government jobs in renewable energy, in increasing energy efficiency by insulating homes and public buildings free of charge, in hugely expanding cheap public transport to get people and freight onto cleaner forms of transit, and in developing the "green skills" that we need through education and training.
> ...


imo Labour needs to get on the case with it's Green New Deal asap. This could and should be its one big idea for this election. Big, bold, ambitious, joined-up thinking, and of course necessary.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Plant more trees. Ideal time of year for collecting seeds.


That sounds like effort. Can't we just do something that doesn't involve any effort, please? Or expense. Or inconvenience.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

treelover said:


> Lots of bluster from all parties, Sharmi Chakrabarti and then Faiza Shaheen just couldn't say what labour's immigration policy would be, it seems they are being cautious before the vote as they don't want to lose an element of their vote.


The manifesto isn't out yet tbf


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> imo Labour needs to get on the case with it's Green New Deal asap. This could and should be its one big idea for this election. Big, bold, ambitious, joined-up thinking, and of course necessary.



Perhaps not likely to make much difference while the Green Party are trying to ensure the Tories get in again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2019)

people who say 'joined-up thinking' will end up in the nether regions of gehenna


----------



## Wilf (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> imo Labour needs to get on the case with it's Green New Deal asap. This could and should be its one big idea for this election. Big, bold, ambitious, joined-up thinking, and of course necessary.


Yeah, I'm not convinced there is even a greener capitalism to be had, but pushing a green new deal has potential to get beyond brexit. Maybe to _superficially_ at least, get beyond the brexit divide amongst labour's vote. In fact labour are so weak on brexit, strategically, everything should focus on the green and social democratic possibilities of a _post_ brexit world. Bit late for all that though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, I'm not convinced there is even a greener capitalism to be had, but pushing a green new deal has potential to get beyond brexit. Maybe to _superficially_ at least, get beyond the brexit divide amongst labour's vote. In fact labour are so weak on brexit, strategically, everything should focus on the green and social democratic possibilities of a _post_ brexit world. Bit late for all that though.


we better hope there's a greener capitalism because at least some of the responses necessary to prevent an utterly horrific future* will have to be undertaken under capitalism


____
*i know that for a lot of people esp in the global south things are horrific at present: but i suspect this is little in comparison to the horrors which lie ahead should things go entirely pear-shaped.


----------



## chilango (Nov 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> people who say 'joined-up thinking' will end up in the nether regions of gehenna



Is that policy evidence based?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2019)

chilango said:


> Is that policy evidence based?


Going for the low hanging fruit, there?


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2019)

Has this not come up yet? I'm curious what impact this might have - it's been seen by probably 3-4 million people now (at least), but - while he's contradicting his own government's policy and the treaty he's just negotiated with the EU - he's not really saying anything that isn't widely desired/spoken about among brexit supporters. Is it likely to actually improve his polling?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> *shrug* Its no more bonkers than telling people to vote again until they get the answer right.



Or... not letting people vote again, in case they get the answer 'wrong'.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 8, 2019)

killer b said:


> Has this not come up yet? I'm curious what impact this might have - it's been seen by probably 3-4 million people now (at least), but - while he's contradicting his own government's policy and the treaty he's just negotiated with the EU - he's not really saying anything that isn't widely desired/spoken about among brexit supporters. Is it likely to actually improve his polling?



Not a man to let actual facts bother him much


----------



## 8ball (Nov 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I know for a lot of people esp in the global south things are horrific at present: but i suspect this is little in comparison to the horrors which lie ahead should things go entirely pear-shaped.



I learned on the Brexit thread that this is small fry compared to the horrors of Dagenham.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 8, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Or... not letting people vote again, in case they get the answer 'wrong'.



Yeah that isn't an actual campaign though is it? Whereas the People's Vote campaign to ask people again until they get it right is.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 8, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Not a man to let actual facts bother him much


Scary thing is that it is calculated. He knows he's lying. He knows a fair few people listening know he's lying. But he doesn't care, and he'll spread lie upon lie upon lie, and when he calls out someone else for lying when they're not, he'll point _at himself _and say 'you know there are lots of lies out there, so who knows if this is another one or not'.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Scary thing is that it is calculated. He knows he's lying. He knows a fair few people listening know he's lying. But he doesn't care, and he'll spread lie upon lie upon lie, and when he calls out someone else for lying when they're not, he'll point _at himself _and say 'you know there are lots of lies out there, so who knows if this is another one or not'.



He lies all the time, its like a compulsion.  He doesn't care if they're really obvious lies, he even lies when he doesn't have to.  Its like that time he was asked about hobbies and he started lying about building model buses.  I mean, he didn't have to tell the full truth and say 'booze, cocaine and casual racism'.  He could have said watching sport and stuff which is true, but lying is just an automatic thing to do.

Its just what he does.  He lies all the time and has betrayed everyone who he has ever come into contact with.  If someone told him they could guarantee he would win the election but he'd have to run a far left administration and cancel brexit he'd be singing the internationale and hugging Donald Tusk within seconds.  He cares for nothing except himself yet there are still a lot of people who look at him and go ' that's my guy, I trust him to get it all sorted'.  It just shows how easy life is for narcissists because people are drawn to them for some reason.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2019)

https://edition-m.cnn.com/2019/11/0...?r=https://apple.news/AxQNjs3fHSXy_JccA6caW3w


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 8, 2019)

Apparently Paul Mason has applied to be Labour candidate in Hall Green Birmingham.


----------



## campanula (Nov 8, 2019)

O Jesus fucking Christ. I am watching Kier Starmer right now and almost weeping at the sheer incompetence. Clutching his little fists together, stammering witlessly - what the fuck is the matter with him? Is this really the best LP can do? I am mortified. The most cringingly clueless wittering - I could write and deliver a better response myself...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2019)

campanula said:


> O Jesus fucking Christ. I am watching Kier Starmer right now and almost weeping at the sheer incompetence. Clutching his little fists together, stammering witlessly - what the fuck is the matter with him? Is this really the best LP can do? I am mortified. The most cringingly clueless wittering - I could write and deliver a better response myself...


Eh!


----------



## campanula (Nov 8, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Eh!



On Channel 4, Badgers.

am I posting on a wrong thread? I am just...baffled.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 8, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yeah that isn't an actual campaign though is it? Whereas the People's Vote campaign to ask people again until they get it right is.


There are people arguing against a second referendum, and there are people arguing for it.

You characterise the latter as "asking people again until they get it right". By the same token I could characterise the former as "not letting people vote again in case they get it wrong".

There's one of those approaches that lets people choose, and one that doesn't. The only right answer is the one people choose. 

I wasn't sure about a second referendum for a while because of the difficulties of deciding what the options would be. Now it's rather clearer what the 'deal' is. So let people choose: deal, no-deal or remain.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 8, 2019)

campanula said:


> O Jesus fucking Christ. I am watching Kier Starmer right now and almost weeping at the sheer incompetence. Clutching his little fists together, stammering witlessly - what the fuck is the matter with him? Is this really the best LP can do? I am mortified. The most cringingly clueless wittering - I could write and deliver a better response myself...


But didn't his little face light up when he asked about being leader.


----------



## maomao (Nov 8, 2019)

teuchter said:


> There are people arguing against a second referendum, and there are people arguing for it.
> 
> You characterise the latter as "asking people again until they get it right". By the same token I could characterise the former as "not letting people vote again in case they get it wrong".
> 
> ...


There's an outside chance of a second ref. There's fuck all chance of a second ref with no deal on the ballot.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 8, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Apparently Paul Mason has applied to be Labour candidate in Hall Green Birmingham.


Hahahaha


----------



## agricola (Nov 8, 2019)

I see they are banging the Hindu - Muslim drum again:

British Hindus urged in WhatsApp messages to vote against Labour


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 8, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> If we scrap trident by firing nukes at random countries then carbon emissions will go right down and the ensuing nuclear winter will cool the planet down enough for wildlife to start to recover



Pure genius!


----------



## Wilf (Nov 8, 2019)

Tories have selected elphicke's wife for dover. I know she isn't the one accused of sexual assault but ffs.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 9, 2019)

campanula said:


> O Jesus fucking Christ. I am watching Kier Starmer right now and almost weeping at the sheer incompetence. Clutching his little fists together, stammering witlessly - what the fuck is the matter with him? Is this really the best LP can do? I am mortified. The most cringingly clueless wittering - I could write and deliver a better response myself...


And he appears to be the best the Labour centrist have to offer lol


----------



## gosub (Nov 9, 2019)




----------



## Supine (Nov 9, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> And he appears to be the best the Labour centrist have to offer lol



who do the labour left have?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 9, 2019)

Supine said:


> who do the labour left have?


Hate getting bogged down in all this labour stuff but uh the incumbent?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Hate getting bogged down in all this labour stuff but uh the incumbent?


I can't think of anyone on the Labour left who has less charisma than starmer if I'm honest. 

Agree it's a daft debate though, only fuels the ridiculous argument that the problem here is one of leadership rather than the tensions between the leave and remain sections of their voter base and those whose votes they want to win.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 9, 2019)

What’s hitting labour is the internal chaos, which was instigated and prolonged by Blairite types, not the fault of the so-called ‘hard left’. Corbyn’s first shadow cabinet was a broad church including some on the right of the party. What followed was mass resignations, leadership challenges and sniping from MPs writhing columns in the Tory press, leading up to the situation now where you have dissident members/former members calling for people to vote for an entitled Etonian prick instead. This isn’t Corbyn’s doing.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 10, 2019)

It'll be interesting to see what Farage does this week, he was supposed to announce all the 600 candidates last week, but held off.

He's under pressure not to stand anything like that number, from some of his own candidates, Arron Banks, and Brexit supporting rags, apparently the Mail carried 5 pages yesterday on why he shouldn't put candidates up against the Tories, for fear of handing No. 10 to Corbyn.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 10, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It'll be interesting to see what Farage does this week, he was supposed to announce all the 600 candidates last week, but held off.
> 
> He's under pressure not to stand anything like that number, from some of his own candidates, Arron Banks, and Brexit supporting rags, apparently the Mail carried 5 pages yesterday on why his shouldn't put candidates up against the Tories, for fear of handing No. 10 to Corbyn.


Yeah, thursday's the nomination deadline IIRC?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 10, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, thursday's the nomination deadline IIRC?



Yep.


----------



## a_chap (Nov 10, 2019)

This surely wraps it up for Labour.

Corbyn finally exposed as a SOCIALIST.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 10, 2019)

a_chap said:


> This surely wraps it up for Labour.
> 
> Corbyn finally exposed as a SOCIALIST.




Tweet would have carried more weight if they’d mentioned Corbyn’s house is in Islington and his net worth is approx £4.5 million.


----------



## a_chap (Nov 10, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Tweet would have carried more weight if they’d mentioned Corbyn’s house is in Islington and his net worth is approx £4.5 million.



I suspect that Tweet went right over your head...


----------



## maomao (Nov 10, 2019)

a_chap said:


> I suspect that Tweet went right over your head...


Wouldn't have to be flying very high to do that.


----------



## treelover (Nov 10, 2019)

> Amid much debate about spending, the Mirror’s political editor says a TV debate between Sajid Javid and John McDonnell could be on the cards, although claims the chancellor may not be as keen as he’s making out …



yes, it would be great, Mcdonnell would wipe the floor with Javid, though he would need to keep his cool, not lose temper, issue is public would see he is miles better than corbyn in so many ways.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 10, 2019)

McDonnell does TV pretty well, always seems relaxed and sure of himself, doesn’t get flustered or caught out. Would be a bonus for Labour to take on Javid, who seems a bit of a lightweight, comes across like one of those Apprentice candidates that’s overly sure of themselves but a bit shit (which is a fair description of half the cabinet at least).


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 10, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Can you give some of the reasons why Scotland's representatives, as I say the SNP are the 3rd biggest UK party, are irrelevant...in the UK?



They are not a UK party, the clue is in their name.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 10, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Tweet would have carried more weight if they’d mentioned Corbyn’s house is in Islington and his net worth is approx £4.5 million.


As a matter of interest, where did you get that figure Marty1 ?

You wouldn't, for example, be using the logic used in this piece would you (scroll down to 'jeremy corbyn's net worth')? Usual apols for the source etc.

ooops: What is Jeremy Corbyn’s net worth?  | Daily Mail Online


----------



## brogdale (Nov 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> As a matter of interest, where did you get that figure Marty1 ?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> As a matter of interest, where did you get that figure Marty1 ?
> 
> You wouldn't, for example, be using the logic used in this piece would you (scroll down to 'jeremy corbyn's net worth')? Usual apols for the source etc.



Think I heard it on the radio.

So is he worth a few quid for a socialist then?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 10, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Think I heard it on the radio.
> 
> So is he worth a few quid for a socialist then?


Yes, I imagine he's very, but not mega, rich - for a socialist or for anyone really. Not Tony Benn rich,, but still rich.

But I'm interested in the maths. The DM got him up to £3million in 2018, using the entirely misleading phrase 'his accumulated wealth' from the public purse. It's badly written, but they seem to be just adding up the money he's received since entering parliament. I wonder, was 'the radio' doing something similar?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 10, 2019)

Oooh, have I just become a fact checker! 

Bet I've got it wrong...


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yes, I imagine he's very, but not mega, rich - for a socialist or for anyone really. Not Tony Benn rich,, but still rich.
> 
> But I'm interested in the maths. The DM got him up to £3million in 2018, using the entirely misleading phrase 'his accumulated wealth' from the public purse. It's badly written, but they seem to be just adding up the money he's received since entering parliament. I wonder, was 'the radio' doing something similar?



Couldn’t give two hoots what his exact net worth is tbh - but I’m glad we can both agree that he is worth a decent amount for a socialist.

I think it’s fair to say that old crusty Corbyn is the very definition  of the phrase ‘champagne socialist’ or the American version ‘limousine liberal’.


----------



## killer b (Nov 10, 2019)

remind me why you're all wasting your time on this weirdo again?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 10, 2019)

so he's wrong for having been working for 40 years or so and getting paid in that time?

and he's wrong for having bought a house 40 or so years ago that has gone up in value?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 10, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I think it’s fair to say that old crusty Corbyn is the very definition  of the phrase ‘champagne socialist’ or the American version ‘limousine liberal’.


But then you are wrong on that as well. The term 'champagne socialist' isn't predominantly about wealth, it's about lifestyle - the champagne bit. If you know anything about Corbyn you'd know he is famously austere and even the piece I quoted from the mail makes much of him eating cold beans from a can and refusing to go to restaurants during his 1st marriage.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 10, 2019)

Champagne socialist = new labour types. The most misused word in that phrase is socialist really. The one that gets me is the newer latte socialist. I mean I drink my coffee black but is having milk really a signifier of something, I dunno


----------



## Wilf (Nov 10, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Champagne socialist = new labour types. The most misused word in that phrase is socialist really. The one that gets me is the newer latte socialist. I mean I drink my coffee black but is having milk really a signifier of something, I dunno


I thought Owen Smith had settled the Coffee Question for a generation? Ditto watching football and having lots of beers.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I thought Owen Smith had settled the Coffee Question for a generation? Ditto watching football and having lots of beers.



I'm starting to think consumer choices might not be the best shorthand label for a persons politics. That said, when I'm rich you can call me le creuset communist.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Champagne socialist = new labour types.


Nah, it's a term that predates New Labour by a few decades at least. That lot spent more on making sure no-one drank champagne in public than they did on the champagne.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Tweet would have carried more weight if they’d mentioned Corbyn’s house is in Islington and his net worth is approx £4.5 million.


He's an Islington MP so should be living there , and bought his house decades ago when it was worth a lot less (and was affordable).


----------



## Raheem (Nov 11, 2019)

.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

For those still amassing their fortune, it's Cava Council Communist, Lambrusco Leninist or Bucksfizz Ba'athist.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

Anyway, what's Galloway's tipple?


----------



## Raheem (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> For those still amassing their fortune, it's Cava Council Communist, Lambrusco Leninist or Bucksfizz Ba'athist.


Meths Marxist.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

Firewater FRELIMO. Erm... IST.


----------



## belboid (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> For those still amassing their fortune, it's Cava Council Communist, Lambrusco Leninist or Bucksfizz Ba'athist.


Am I a Tequilla Trotskyist, or was that ernestolynch?


----------



## JimW (Nov 11, 2019)

Maotai Maoist, that stuff goes for thousands a bottle (Christ knows why)


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

belboid said:


> Am I a Tequilla Trotskyist, or was that ernestolynch?


A Benedictine Bronsteinist eh?


----------



## maomao (Nov 11, 2019)

JimW said:


> Maotai Maoist, that stuff goes for thousands a bottle (Christ knows why)


I'm in the Tsingtao Tsinghua clique.


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2019)

Absinthe anarchists FTW


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> But then you are wrong on that as well. The term 'champagne socialist' isn't predominantly about wealth, it's about lifestyle - the champagne bit. If you know anything about Corbyn you'd know he is famously austere and even the piece I quoted from the mail makes much of him eating cold beans from a can and refusing to go to restaurants during his 1st marriage.



Ok then, a hero he is


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Ok then, a hero he is



Actually say something or gtfo these boards. Youre getting on my tits.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 11, 2019)

Green tea Trotskyist


This works surprisingly well actually.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Absinthe anarchists FTW


Asti spumanti anarchists, surely?


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Absinthe anarchists FTW


Not keen on aniseed, I'm going to be an amaretto anarchist instead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Not keen on aniseed, I'm going to be an amoretto anarchist instead.


You'll puke off it and never touch it again


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 11, 2019)

What's that well known phrase. Def change horses midstream, what could go wrong. Think that's it anyway.


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Asti spumanti anarchists, surely?





redsquirrel said:


> Not keen on aniseed, I'm going to be an amaretto anarchist instead.


Splitters!!!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

As Brenda from Bristol would say, 'not another one'. 



> Former Labour MP tells voters to back Boris Johnson
> 
> Gisela Stuart, the former Labour MP who was also a chair of the official Leave campaign, has told talkRADIO she is still a Labour member – despite urging people to vote for the Tories at this election.
> 
> Many have suggested she won’t be member much longer.


----------



## kebabking (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Anyway, what's Galloway's tipple?



Pretty, and terribly niave first year students at Glasgow University.

Allegedly, M'lud.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

Pressure mounts on Farage to stand down most of his candidates.



> It comes as Nigel Farage is pressured to pull Brexit Party candidates by Tory Brexiteers and former allies, with the Leave.EU campaign group threatening to release a tactical voting app showing Leave voters that they should back the Tories in most parts of the country.
> 
> Nigel dubbed 'the Frodo Baggins of Brexit' as Tories fearing election disaster urge him to drop candidates - follow live


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 11, 2019)

so what/who is the sauron in this situation,  corbyn or no deal?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> so what/who is the sauron in this situation,  corbyn or no deal?


sauron is putin, corbyn is one of the ring wraiths


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Pressure mounts on Farage to stand down most of his candidates.


Fortunately despite his claims to the contrary, Farage cares more for his ego than he ever did about Brexit
Go for it Nige runs up another 600 loonies and run them


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 11, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Fortunately despite his claims to the contrary, Farage cares more for his ego than he ever did about Brexit
> Go for it Nige runs up another 600 loonies and run them


You surely don't think that he doesn't care about leaving the EU? Really? I suppose by extension then most leave voters don't either.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 11, 2019)

Left wing twitter types hunting out Brexit Party loonies aren’t really thinking strategically. Splitting the right vote is helpful.

Tories are the threat and need more of a light shining on all their assorted loonies and racists, not that this stuff has a great deal of traction anyway.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

Farage dropped his demand for a no-deal Brexit, and compromised by calling for changes to the political declaration, to rule out an extension of the transition period beyond 2020, or a future trade deal that has "regulatory alignment" with the EU.

Looks like Johnson has agreed. It looks like the backroom talks between the Tories & the BP may well have paid off, be interesting to hear what Farage has to say at his planned press conference today. 



> Boris Johnson has ruled out extending the transition period for Brexit beyond 2020. In a move likely to be interpreted as being aimed at Brexit Party voters, the Prime Minister said Britain would aim for a free trade agreement ‘on the model of a super Canada-plus arrangement’.
> 
> Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party are set to stand candidates backing a rapid ‘clean-break Brexit’ in around 600 seats, which could eat into the Conservative vote. Now Mr Johnson appears to be targeting those candidates and undecided voters, after previously rejecting a ‘Leave Alliance’ with Mr Farage, backed by USA President Donald Trump.
> 
> Boris Johnson tries to woo Nigel Farage with latest Brexit deadline | Metro News



Do or die?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 11, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You surely don't think that he doesn't care about leaving the EU? Really? I suppose by extension then most leave voters don't either.


He does but it is secondary to his love of the limelight and having his ego fluffed up


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 11, 2019)

not optimistic. looks like tories could keep most of their 2017 vote share - whilst labour has lost out to lib dems and brexit party. However lib dem "revival" look decidedly stalled. Need to hope tactical voting and localised campaigning prevent Johnson cunt getting a majority.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 11, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You surely don't think that he doesn't care about leaving the EU? Really? I suppose by extension then most leave voters don't either.


But your point does deserve a more nuanced response than a discussion of Farages failings
There are plenty of Leave voters who want to leave for whatever reason but a great many I think voted Leave out of dissatisfaction with the status quo rather than a specific objection to an EU policy.
These are sadly the people who are going to lose out the most after we do leave


----------



## Sue (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> For those still amassing their fortune, it's Cava Council Communist, Lambrusco Leninist or Bucksfizz Ba'athist.


Prosecco Proletarian.


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> He does but it is secondary to his love of the limelight and having his ego fluffed up


This is such a banal and shallow - and wrong - reading of Farage's political motivations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> not optimistic. looks like tories could keep most of their 2017 vote share - whilst labour has lost out to lib dems and brexit party. However lib dem "revival" look decidedly stalled. Need to hope tactical voting and localised campaigning prevent Johnson cunt getting a majority.


not even been a week of campaigning and already there's puling and groaning as tho we were in the final furlong


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

> NIGEL Farage is preparing to unveil “something big” at midday after a crunch meeting with Prime Minister Boris Johnson as pressure builds on both sides in advance of Thursday’s deadline for the submission of nomination papers for candidates seeking election to Parliament in next month’s general election.
> 
> Farage about to cave-in? Brexit Party rally CANCELLED – urgent press conference imminent



Blimey Johnson himself had a meeting with Farage.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> not even been a week of campaigning and already there's puling and groaning as tho we were in the final furlong



the scars of 1992 and 2015 run deep. also - im not convinced that just because corbyn upset the applecart last time means he will pull the same trick this time around. If the elections about brexit than it looks like leave voters will vote solidly for the tories - whearas the remain vote gets split.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

The UK leaves on 31 October. There will be NO EXTENSION to transition. Yes, dear, of course there won't.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Pretty, and terribly niave first year students at Glasgow University.
> 
> Allegedly, M'lud.


Apparently he's teetotal (Rape Apologist Ribenaist).


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> This is such a banal and shallow - and wrong - reading of Farage's political motivations.


OK I'll bite what do you believe motivates him?


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

the short answer is 'rightwing political ideology'


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 11, 2019)

Manufactured social media furore by Tory hard men about Corbs willingness to start chucking nukes around - as if this is a marker of how suitable you are for a role. We really  have struck a rich seam of jingoistic macho fuckery. These cunts should be dropped into the nearest war zone to live out their fantasies 4 real


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

*BREAKING NEWS.*

Farage press conference - Brexit Party will not be standing in current Tory held seats, they will only be going after Labour seats.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Manufactured social media furore by Tory hard men about Corbs willingness to start chucking nukes around - as if this is a marker of how suitable you are for a role. We really  have struck a rich seam of jingoistic macho fuckery. These cunts should be dropped into the nearest nuclear test site to live out their fantasies 4 real


corrected for you


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> *BREAKING NEWS.*
> 
> Farage press conference - Brexit Party will not be standing in current Tory held seats, they will only be going after Labour seats.


farage makes boris johnson look strong and stable


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> *BREAKING NEWS.*
> 
> Farage press conference - Brexit Party will not be standing in current Tory held seats, they will only be going after Labour seats.


Sounds like game over for the LP.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Sounds like game over for the LP.


you say that...

i suspect there may be further diminutions of the brexit party's electoral exposure in the next few days.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Sounds like game over for the LP.



It's certainly a bit of a game changer, and not great news for Labour.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you say that...
> 
> i suspect there may be further diminutions of the brexit party's electoral exposure in the next few days.


I admire your optimism, but on the face of it and *if *the BP strategy is to stand against 'remain' incumbents...then it's pretty much sunk Corbyn's hope of getting anywhere near the number of seats gained in 2017. 
Looking more like a 3 figure tory majority if this plays out as stated.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

I expect the BP will also drop out from some Labour seats, which the Tories stand a good chance to win, I guess we will know exactly how many seats they are going after in the next few days.


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2019)

So Farage only needs to find about 300 or so non-loon candidates now. I reckon it will still be a tough ask.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 11, 2019)

Will they still be standing in Labour seats where the tories have a chance of taking the seat anyway?


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Will they still be standing in Labour seats where the tories have a chance of taking the seat anyway?


apparently so, yeah. mind, last week they said they were contesting the lot so who knows.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I expect the BP will also drop out from some Labour seats, which the Tories stand a good chance to win, I guess we will know exactly how many seats they are going after in the next few days.


There are a few LD/Tory marginals (like my own constituency) in which they may also let the Tory challenger have a free run against the LD incumbent (Brake in C&W).


----------



## 8ball (Nov 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> So Farage only needs to find about 300 or so non-loon candidates now. I reckon it will still be a tough ask.



They only need to be non-loony enough to not be in prison or sectioned by election day, and they're guaranteed a lot of votes.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 11, 2019)

Johnson scared enough that he had to do a deal with the Brexit lot, didn’t have the balls to fight the leave corner alone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I admire your optimism, but on the face of it and *if *the BP strategy is to stand against 'remain' incumbents...then it's pretty much sunk Corbyn's hope of getting anywhere near the number of seats gained in 2017.
> Looking more like a 3 figure tory majority if this plays out as stated.


if the brexit party are competing with the tories against labour then i would expect a proportion of the tory vote to go to farage. i suspect that by doing this farage will - perversely - bolster labour as if the choice is vote brexit and let the tories win the bp's unlikely to garner a vast amount of support from labour voters. i think the naked opportunism will see a rise in the proportion of labour voters turning out.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 11, 2019)

Arise sir Farage


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> There are a few LD/Tory marginals (like my own constituency) in which they may also let the Tory challenger have a free run against the LD incumbent (Brake in C&W).



I expect that to be the case, like down the road from me, in Hastings.


----------



## emanymton (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's certainly a bit of a game changer, and not great news for Labour.


Is it? It could make it harder for the Tories to take seats of Labour. And if Labour take a few of them...

But really who the fuck knows?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if the brexit party are competing with the tories against labour then i would expect a proportion of the tory vote to go to farage. i suspect that by doing this farage will - perversely - bolster labour as if the choice is vote brexit and let the tories win the bp's unlikely to garner a vast amount of support from labour voters. i think the naked opportunism will see a rise in the proportion of labour voters turning out.


I'd be more inclined to entertain such a theory if I hadn't seen those regional cross-breaks off the latest (large) YG. I know, I know...polling, but they were dire for LP.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I expect that to be the case, like down the road from me, in Hastings.


Hastings is a Con/Lab marginal currently held by Con, although there will be a new mp this time. Presumably BP won't contest Hastings. It's the kind of place Labour could really do with winning. 

BP have just voluntarily made themselves irrelevant, I'd have thought. I can't see anything other than a nosedive in their share of the vote.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

I think the key points are what he said, “if we field 600 candidates there will be a hung parliament".

And, what he didn't say, he didn't say they would stand in every Labour seat.

I'll be surprised if they stand in more than around 40-50 seats.


----------



## maomao (Nov 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hastings is a Con/Lab marginal currently held by Con, although there will be a new mp this time. Presumably BP won't contest Hastings. It's the kind of place Labour could really do with winning.
> 
> BP have just voluntarily made themselves irrelevant, I'd have thought. I can't see anything other than a nosedive in their share of the vote.


Doesn't matter. They're not a genuine  political party, they're a vehicle for Nigel Farage and nothing else. He's obviously got what he wants.


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

This is really going to fuck with the polling huh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think the key points are what he said, “if we field 600 candidates there will be a hung parliament".
> 
> And, what he didn't say, he didn't say they would stand in every Labour seat.
> 
> ...



I think so too. In a lot of seats in the Midlands, North and Wales a single leave candidate would be necessary to overturn Labour. The question is which party in each seat. If they do a deal on that, and get it right, Labour are done. 

Labour’s position on Brexit is a toxic mess in these areas


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think so too. In a lot of leave seats in the Midlands, North and Wales one leave candidate would be necessary to overturn Labour. The question is which party in each seat. If they get that right Labour are done


I guess we should stop behing surprised, but I really would be surprised if the Tories stood down any candidates in British constituencies. I think it could backfire spectacularly if they were to do that, and I don't see how they can make the political case for it to their own supporters.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

Have to see how this plays out in terms of what will probably be unpredictable splits and shifts, but on the face of it it's a disaster for Labour. I suspect Farage will get a bit of stick for this and there will be a tiny boost for ukip, but the bigger picture is messy but good for the tories. It's up to Labour to present this as a capitulation by johnson, a hard right alliance etc.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I guess we should stop behing surprised, but I really would be surprised if the Tories stood down any candidates in British constituencies. I think it could backfire spectacularly if they were to do that, and I don't see how they can make the political case for it to their own supporters.



400 years of political history says you are right. But these are not normal times. A possibility is that they could compromise by fielding a paper only candidate and agree not to campaign.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Have to see how this plays out in terms of what will probably be unpredictable splits and shifts, but on the face of it it's a disaster for Labour. I suspect Farage will get a bit of stick for this and there will be a tiny boost for ukip, but the bigger picture is messy but good for the tories. It's up to Labour to present this as a capitulation by johnson, a hard right alliance etc.


Your last bit shows the opportunity this might represent. It could help Labour hold on to a few seats, I'd have thought.


----------



## JimW (Nov 11, 2019)

So presume they'll stand in Stroud which Drew won by a few hundred votes, hard to say if they'll take more labour than Tory votes there, he got over the line on a personal vote last time I reckon.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I guess we should stop behing surprised, but I really would be surprised if the Tories stood down any candidates in British constituencies. I think it could backfire spectacularly if they were to do that, and I don't see how they can make the political case for it to their own supporters.



I don't expect any Tories to stand down, and I think Farage knows that.

Although they may decide not to campaign in a few areas to give the BP a free run.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 11, 2019)

Re impact on labour vote - if it's BXP standing aside just in tory held seats but standing in labour seats where tories a threat then could help labour couldn't it?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Re impact on labour vote - *if it's BXP standing aside just in tory held seats* but standing in labour seats where tories a threat then could help labour couldn't it?



BIB - Farage didn't actually say that. 



cupid_stunt said:


> I think the key points are what he said, “if we field 600 candidates there will be a hung parliament".
> 
> And, what he didn't say, he didn't say they would stand in every Labour seat.
> 
> I'll be surprised if they stand in more than around 40-50 seats.


----------



## JimW (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Re impact on labour vote - if it's BXP standing aside just in tory held seats but standing in labour seats where tories a threat then could help labour couldn't it?


That's what I meant about Stroud - tight Lab-Tory marginal, Lib Dems leaving it to Greens too.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Re impact on labour vote - if it's BXP standing aside just in tory held seats but standing in labour seats where tories a threat then could help labour couldn't it?



It depends on who they take votes from. In some seats I think you are right. In others the BP could take labour votes (which is what Farage thinks will happen)


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> BIB - Farage didn't actually say that.


What I've seen reported (BBC) is that they won't stand in the 317 seats won by  Conservatives in 2017, but they will run against all other parties and focus on taking seats off Labour


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I wasn't sure about a second referendum for a while because of the difficulties of deciding what the options would be. Now it's rather clearer what the 'deal' is. So let people choose: deal, no-deal or remain.



Would you be up for having no deal on the ballot paper?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Sounds like game over for the LP.


We will see, if we accept the belief that the BP take more votes from Tory than Labour then this will make it easier for the Tories to hang onto the marginals they already have but no easier to win the ones they need.
However rather than complaining about other parties conspiring against them Labour needs to get out and sell the message that they can run the country in a better and fairer way than the current shower and so far they don't seem to be doing a great job of that


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Would you be up for having no deal on the ballot paper?


fortunately the question won't rely on teuchter's answer


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> What I've seen reported (BBC) is that they won't stand in the 317 seats won by  Conservatives in 2017, but they will run against all other parties and focus on taking seats off Labour



He has committed to not standing against the Tories in seats they won last time, he also said they will 'concentrate their efforts on all Labour held seats', but fell short of actually giving a commitment to stand in them all.

It's all in the wording, he's a fucking politician after all.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Anyway, what's Galloway's tipple?



He doesn't drink, "God knows who is and who is not a Muslim", remember.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> What I've seen reported (BBC) is that they won't stand in the 317 seats won by  Conservatives in 2017, but they will run against all other parties and focus on taking seats off Labour



Yes. Thats what he said. But Farage said they were standing in 600 seats last week.

If you take a seat like Walsall at the moment you’d expect Labour to win the seat even though the majority of the vote will probably go to two leave candidates. It makes sense therefore for either the BP or Tories only to stand in these seats. Or at least decide which of them will ‘go for it’ with the other agreeing not to campaign.

If, as Farage suggests, there is now a ‘Leave Alliance’ this would be the only logical position to adopt


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

So, there could be an element of this helps Labour keep their seats, but makes it harder to take Tory seats?  Though all of that has to be cross cut with the issue of whether any particular seat - Lab or Con - was strongly leave or remain.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 11, 2019)

Farage bottled it , he was never going to get a deal from Boris. His strategy relies on the leave vote going to Boris in those Tory constituencies and on labour leavers being prepared to vote BP or Tory. It will depend on whether or not they think 5 more years of the Tories is worth it .


----------



## 8ball (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> He doesn't drink, "God knows who is and who is not a Muslim", remember.



How does this work?  Does it mean if you drink you're not a Muslim?  Or that no one can say who is a Muslim or not, regardless of whether they drink.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 11, 2019)

They’ll do what serves them/their paymasters best, same as any other party. I don’t think there will be a formal position, just whatever makes the end goal most likely.


----------



## Smangus (Nov 11, 2019)

if nothing else it should (hopefully) clarify a few minds on the anti Tory front. I won't hold my breath though.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> How does this work?  Does it mean if you drink you're not a Muslim?  Or that no one can say who is a Muslim or not, regardless of whether they drink.



"Many will remember the personal letter he sent around households, addressing voters of the Muslim faith and Pakistani heritage in Bradford West in 2012, in which he said: “I, George Galloway, do not drink alcohol and never have. Ask yourself if you believe the other candidate in this election can say that truthfully.”

In a concluding phrase, that led to the later revelation that Galloway had actually converted from Catholicism to Islam, he said: “God KNOWS who is a Muslim. And he KNOWS who is not. Instinctively, so do you”."

Is George Galloway really the authentic voice of all Muslims everywhere?

E2A: I don't think Galloway has ever actually said he is a Muslim for clarity but the fact he questions whether other Muslims are in fact Muslims means a lot of papers have said he is.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> "Many will remember the personal letter he sent around households, addressing voters of the Muslim faith and Pakistani heritage in Bradford West in 2012, in which he said: “I, George Galloway, do not drink alcohol and never have. Ask yourself if you believe the other candidate in this election can say that truthfully.”
> 
> In a concluding phrase, that led to the later revelation that Galloway had actually converted from Catholicism to Islam, he said: “God KNOWS who is a Muslim. And he KNOWS who is not. Instinctively, so do you”."
> 
> Is George Galloway really the authentic voice of all Muslims everywhere?



Cheers, I'd totally forgotten about that.


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It depends on who they take votes from. In some seats I think you are right. In others the BP could take labour votes (which is what Farage thinks will happen)


Historically BP/UKIP has always taken more Tory votes than it has done Labour. I can't see why we would expect to see any big changes as far as that's concerned in seats where the BP is standing.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> Historically BP/UKIP has always taken more Tory votes than it has done Labour. I can't see why we would expect to see any big changes as far as that's concerned in seats where the BP is standing.



If anything, Farage talking up an alliance with Johnson will boost that trend I would have thought.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 11, 2019)

I'll be expecting libdem polling to sink now, with a brexit pact they are going to find it hard to stop voters swinging behind labour in all but a few seats


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> Historically BP/UKIP has always taken more Tory votes than it has done Labour. I can't see why we would expect to see any big changes as far as that's concerned in seats where the BP is standing.



You don’t think the fact that in the previous election you refer to Labour stood on a platform of respecting and enacting the referendum result?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'll be expecting libdem polling to sink now, with a brexit pact they are going to find it hard to stop voters swinging behind labour in all but a few seats



Shouldn't Corbyn be seeking to develop a remain alliance with the Lib Dems/Greens etc?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Shouldn't Corbyn be seeking to develop a remain alliance with the Lib Dems/Greens etc?


God I hope not


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Would you be up for having no deal on the ballot paper?



It would guarantee a win for remain if it was a three-way poll.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 11, 2019)

Labour should make hay out of them being only party standing on own feet and putting themselves to the polls on their own terms and manifesto tbh


----------



## maomao (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It would guarantee a win for remain if it was a three-way poll.


Two stages like French presidential elections. Three or more options with two biggest votes going to a final vote. Would be the fairest way and wouldnt guarantee remain at all.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

maomao said:


> Two stages like French presidential elections. Three or more options with two biggest votes going to a final vote. Would be the fairest way and wouldnt guarantee remain at all.



That doesn't sound fair at all.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Shouldn't Corbyn be seeking to develop a remain alliance with the Lib Dems/Greens etc?



No. In fact I'm willing to bet a small amount of money the existing 'alliance' ends up costing ground for all the parties involved.


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Couldn’t give two hoots what his exact net worth is tbh - but I’m glad we can both agree that he is worth a decent amount for a socialist.
> 
> I think it’s fair to say that old crusty Corbyn is the very definition  of the phrase ‘champagne socialist’ or the American version ‘limousine liberal’.



What happened to the Bollinger Bolsheviks and the Vimto Vanguardists?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

imposs1904 said:


> What happened to the Bollinger Bolsheviks?



They spilt.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Labour should make hay out of them being only party standing on own feet and putting themselves to the polls on their own terms and manifesto tbh


Yep. It's their only hope of appealing beyond Brexit, which has still got to be Labour's main goal, imo.


----------



## maomao (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That doesn't sound fair at all.


What's unfair about it?


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You don’t think the fact that in the previous election you refer to Labour stood on a platform of respecting and enacting the referendum result?


there's some figures in this article - 

_Our most recent data was collected right after the European Parliament elections in June when the Brexit party was briefly leading the polls. Taken together, the Brexit party drew 72% of its support from 2017 Conservatives and 17% from 2017 Labour voters. In Labour-held seats, this gap narrows slightly to 64% Conservatives and 24% Labour voters. 
_
Opinium have a rising number of Labour/Leave voters returning to Labour (66% in their last poll) - I don't think you can assume this will hurt them.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

maomao said:


> What's unfair about it?



If remainers lose round one they get to pick between two things they don't want. If either deal or no deal loses round one then leavers get to pick the other kind of leave.

Imagine a presidential election with three candidates but two of them are the same bloke in two different hats.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That doesn't sound fair at all.


Sounds fair to me, if there were, say, some specified deal that's been worked out and can be applied, no deal, and remain. My problem with it is that I don't think a political class can or should present an option to a referendum that it itself considers to be dangerous - dangerous to peace in NI, for starters. It would bear responsibility for any shit that happened if that option won and was enacted, but would seek to shift that responsibility to 'the voters'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If remainers lose round one they get to pick between two things they don't want. .


That's pretty much what happens in French elections - Macron or Le Pen? Well, neither. But you get to choose your less-hated option.


----------



## maomao (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Imagine a presidential election with three candidates but two of them are the same bloke in two different hats.


Most elections are just two or three identical blokes in different hats tbf. I can't think of a fairer way of doing it anyway.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'll be expecting libdem polling to sink now, with a brexit pact they are going to find it hard to stop voters swinging behind labour in all but a few seats


Yes. I think the Tories win, but if there is to be anything other than a tory working majority, this is the key issue.  Same time, the libs need to also still do well in a few tory/lib marginals.

Another thought about the BP not standing  in tory held seats: this makes it even more a brexit election.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> there's some figures in this article -
> 
> _Our most recent data was collected right after the European Parliament elections in June when the Brexit party was briefly leading the polls. Taken together, the Brexit party drew 72% of its support from 2017 Conservatives and 17% from 2017 Labour voters. In Labour-held seats, this gap narrows slightly to 64% Conservatives and 24% Labour voters.
> _
> Opinium have a rising number of Labour/Leave voters returning to Labour (66% in their last poll) - I don't think you can assume this will hurt them.



There are, I think, 3 issues with this:

1. Labour’s Brexit position has changed since June.
2. One in four 2017 voters is significant - given Labour’s shift can we see much of the 24% switching back? 
3. Labour’s target seats are predominantly leave seats


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There are, I think, 3 issues with this:
> 
> 1. Labour’s Brexit position has changed since June.
> 2. One in four 2017 voters is significant - given Labour’s shift can we see much of the 24% switching back?
> 3. Labour’s target seats are predominantly leave seats


1. It has, but the labour party have still held on to more than half of their 2017 leave supporters, which is currently on an upwards trend (we'll see if the latest from Farage changes this)
2. You have your percentages mixed up a bit here: 24% of the BP support was made up of Labour 2017 voters, not 24% of Labour 2017 voters voted BP in June. Either way, the EP elections are only a vague guide to Westminster voting intention at the best of times
3. A 'leave seat' is a pretty crude measure of anything - I live in a 'leave seat' where UKIP have generally polled fuck all and Labour dominate comfortably. That's not going to change here, and in plenty of other 'leave seats'


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

Aside from the political analysis, there's the ever present question of 'what does farage himself get out of this?'  He'd happily abandon the BP in a heartbeat if this led to a cabinet post. There's also the possibility of him becoming ambassador to Washington, though there's probably too much admin and real work involved in a job like that.


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Aside from the political analysis, there's the ever present question of 'what does farage himself get out of this?'  He'd happily abandon the BP in a heartbeat if this led to a cabinet post. There's also the possibility of him becoming ambassador to Washington, though there's probably too much admin and real work involved in a job like that.


I don't think it's necessary for him to have been offered anything: the polling was pretty clear and the BP vote was getting squeezed to fuck, and he's been under significant internal pressure to stand down in many seats over the last week or so to give the tories a clear run. This could as easily be a face saving exercise as anything else.


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

I think it's very unlikely Johnson will have agreed anything formally. He doesn't need to. The BP footsoldiers are overwhelmingly ex-tory members who are committed to Brexit, not Farage. Anyone can see the route to brexit in this election is through the tories.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 11, 2019)

The Brexit Party will get fuck all votes. This is a nationwide general election, people have other priorities than Brexit, as we saw 2 years ago.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The Brexit Party will get fuck all votes. This is a nationwide general election, people have other priorities than Brexit, as we saw 2 years ago.


Yep, and this announcement is a symptom of that. As killer b says, the BP was already getting hammered in the polls. This is an action carried out from a position of increasing weakness. It's hard to judge, but I'm inclined to welcome it, tbh.


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes. Thats what he said. But Farage said they were standing in 600 seats last week.
> 
> If you take a seat like Walsall at the moment you’d expect Labour to win the seat even though the majority of the vote will probably go to two leave candidates. It makes sense therefore for either the BP or Tories only to stand in these seats. Or at least decide which of them will ‘go for it’ with the other agreeing not to campaign.
> 
> If, as Farage suggests, there is now a ‘Leave Alliance’ this would be the only logical position to adopt


I'm just clarifying what he's reported to have said today, obviously things could change over the coming weeks.

And there isn't a Leave alliance in any meaningful sense, nor IMO will there be one which involves the Conservative Party agreeing not to put up candidates in particular seats to give Brexit Party a clear run as the only leave party. Why on earth would they?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 11, 2019)

Lol 

Nigel Farage admits he was offered a peerage 48 hours before election U-turn

Nigel Farage admits he was offered a peerage 48 hours before election U-turn


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 11, 2019)

Anyway I'd say the main factor for brexit party decision to stand down will have been its own polling


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anyway I'd say the main factor for brexit party decision to stand down will have been its own polling


Activist pressure too - there's overwhelming support in the BP grassroots for something like this, and loads of candidates pulling out and endorsing the local tory.


----------



## Argonia (Nov 11, 2019)

Fucking Farage.


----------



## chilango (Nov 11, 2019)

Meh.

Don't think the BXP makes much difference to Labours chances tbh.

As things stand Labour will lose regardless.

But.

It's early days. The campaigning on the ground is only just starting and I've already had 4 or 5 leaflets from Labour. If they can change the framing if the election from Brexit to transformative policy (which they actually have for once) and catch the imagination with it, they've got the boots on the ground to do something with it.

We'll see.


----------



## treelover (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Have to see how this plays out in terms of what will probably be unpredictable splits and shifts, but on the face of it it's a disaster for Labour. I suspect Farage will get a bit of stick for this and there will be a tiny boost for ukip, but the bigger picture is messy but good for the tories. It's up to Labour to present this as a capitulation by johnson, a hard right alliance etc.






> *'Unlikely to be a game-changing moment' - YouGov on significance of Farage's decision*
> *YouGov*, the polling company, has sent out an analysis of the Nigel Farage decision saying it is unlikely to be a “game-changing moment” for the election. This is from its political research manager, Chris Curtis.
> 
> Farage’s decision to stand aside in current Conservative-held seats and not in Labour-held seats that the Tories will be looking to gain will likely make very little difference. There are three caveats to this. Firstly, whilst there has been a swing towards the Tories in their battle against Labour, the increase in Lib Dem and SNP vote share means that there is likely to be a swing against them in seats where they are battling against those parties. However, there are not as many of these seats as there are Labour/Conservative marginals, and most of them will be the kind of places where the Brexit party wouldn’t have won many votes anyway, such as in Scotland or more remain-leaning seats in the south.
> ...



YOU GOV's view, politics live


----------



## treelover (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Have to see how this plays out in terms of what will probably be unpredictable splits and shifts, but on the face of it it's a disaster for Labour. I suspect Farage will get a bit of stick for this and there will be a tiny boost for ukip, but the bigger picture is messy but good for the tories. It's up to Labour to present this as a capitulation by johnson, a hard right alliance etc.



Lib Dems are already doing this, using image of Borias in Falange's pocket.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

treelover said:


> > Farage’s decision to stand aside in current Conservative-held seats and not in Labour-held seats that the Tories will be looking to gain will likely make very little difference.
> 
> 
> 
> YOU GOV's view, politics live



But, that's based on the idea the BP is going to stand in all Labour seats, Farage hasn't committed to doing that, and I doubt he will, considering his stated top priority is to avoid a hung parliament.


----------



## treelover (Nov 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> there's some figures in this article -
> 
> _Our most recent data was collected right after the European Parliament elections in June when the Brexit party was briefly leading the polls. Taken together, the Brexit party drew 72% of its support from 2017 Conservatives and 17% from 2017 Labour voters. In Labour-held seats, this gap narrows slightly to 64% Conservatives and 24% Labour voters.
> _
> Opinium have a rising number of Labour/Leave voters returning to Labour (66% in their last poll) - I don't think you can assume this will hurt them.



the manifesto launch and response will be a key indicator.


----------



## treelover (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol
> 
> Nigel Farage admits he was offered a peerage 48 hours before election U-turn
> 
> Nigel Farage admits he was offered a peerage 48 hours before election U-turn



So, so transparent.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2019)

Lord Cuntyface of Massive Cuntingdon


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> 1. It has, but the labour party have still held on to more than half of their 2017 leave supporters, which is currently on an upwards trend (we'll see if the latest from Farage changes this)
> 2. You have your percentages mixed up a bit here: 24% of the BP support was made up of Labour 2017 voters, not 24% of Labour 2017 voters voted BP in June. Either way, the EP elections are only a vague guide to Westminster voting intention at the best of times
> 3. A 'leave seat' is a pretty crude measure of anything - I live in a 'leave seat' where UKIP have generally polled fuck all and Labour dominate comfortably. That's not going to change here, and in plenty of other 'leave seats'



On 1 it’s already lost 2015 voters and it’s new policy  of a ‘People’s Vote’ has yet to be put to the electorate. So it’s purely speculative but it wouldn’t be a massive surprise if further leave voters gets desert them now.

On 2, you are right - I did. But even so these are relatively big numbers (albeit in small turnouts)

Finally. I don’t know where you live, but in the West Midlands Bexit is likely to be a bigger issue than in 2017. Then, a lot of people (including Labour voters) assumed it was settled and voted on other issues. Given what’s happened since this won’t be the case this time round.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You don’t think the fact that in the previous election you refer to Labour stood on a platform of respecting and enacting the referendum result?



That might well be a factor, it's true, but technically Labour are still committed to negotiating their own Brexit deal and hopefully that will be in the manifesto and not too hideously undermined by the Labour right.

Hopefully.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It would guarantee a win for remain if it was a three-way poll.



Hmmm. Wouldn't bet on it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> That might well be a factor, it's true, but technically Labour are still committed to negotiating their own Brexit deal and hopefully that will be in the manifesto and not too hideously undermined by the Labour right.
> 
> Hopefully.



It’ll be interesting to see how labour portrays its own policy for sure. To date, the policy has not been communicated clearly and precisely because shadow cabinet ministers have clouded the issue with their own spin/position on it


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’ll be interesting to see how labour portrays its own policy for sure. To date, the policy has not been communicated clearly and precisely because shadow cabinet ministers have clouded the issue with their own spin/position on it



Yeah, I agree it's a mess. But I think as long as Corbyn can get across that he doesn't want to cancel Brexit, the rest of the bullshit won't matter too much and hopefully they won't lose too many voters to the BP and that even if they do it won't be on the scale that Southern Tories lose votes to the Lib Dems.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Would you be up for having no deal on the ballot paper?


Yes, in a two stage process as mentioned by others.

Or put another way, whatever happens in the end needs to have a majority. If >50% of voters chose no deal at the first stage then we go with that. If not, then you look for a majority on a choice between the two highest polling options.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Yes, in a two stage process as mentioned by others.
> 
> Or put another way, whatever happens in the end needs to have a majority. If >50% of voters chose no deal at the first stage then we go with that. If not, then you look for a majority on a choice between the two highest polling options.



Interesting. How would you feel if no deal won?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Interesting. How would you feel if no deal won?


Maybe there needs to be a bit more honesty about what 'no deal' means. It means 'crash out, period of chaos, _then a deal_'. It doesn't mean 'no deal' at all. A massive amount of bollocks has been spouted on this issue (not aimed at you particularly), as if crashing out were the end of the process rather than just a really crap way to start it.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe there needs to be a bit more honesty about what 'no deal' means. It means 'crash out, period of chaos, _then a deal_'. It doesn't mean 'no deal' at all. A massive amount of bollocks has been spouted on this issue (not aimed at you particularly), as if crashing out were the end of the process rather than just a really crap way to start it.



You're not really answering the question. 

In any case, I am sure during the referendum campaign this point could be made.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> You're not really answering the question.
> 
> In any case, I am sure during the referendum campaign this point could be made.


I answered the question upthread. 'no deal' can't in good faith be put in a referendum as an option. Those charged with enacting it would use the ref result as cover to avoid responsibility for the shit that would be its consequence.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

Could people take the discussion about a second referendum, which appears highly unlikely anyway, to the brexit thread?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol
> 
> Nigel Farage admits he was offered a peerage 48 hours before election U-turn
> 
> Nigel Farage admits he was offered a peerage 48 hours before election U-turn



The peerage claim seems a bit weird/off message. Farage is basically saying "I'm not going to stand everywhere to help Johnson win, but that guy was so desperate he offered me a peerage, which I turned down because I don't want it."

Agree its probably as much about pressure from activists and financial pressure as much as anything.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I answered the question upthread. 'no deal' can't in good faith be put in a referendum as an option. Those charged with enacting it would use the ref result as cover to avoid responsibility for the shit that would be its consequence.



That sounds a bit like you think it would win. And probably lots of people would be worried it would win, and wouldn't want it on the ballot paper. Which is why it won't work teuchter. 



cupid_stunt said:


> Could people take the discussion about a second referendum, which appears highly unlikely anyway, to the brexit thread?



Sorry.


----------



## killer b (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Finally. I don’t know where you live, but in the West Midlands Bexit is likely to be a bigger issue than in 2017. Then, a lot of people (including Labour voters) assumed it was settled and voted on other issues. Given what’s happened since this won’t be the case this time round.


I'm sure - my only point there was that a 'leave seat' covers a lot of different types of seat, with lots of different things in play - you can't generalise about them in the way you were doing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

Green candidate stands down and throws support behind Labour

A Green candidate in Bristol has stood down and backed labour in an apparent fuck you to her party's 'remain alliance' bullshit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Finally. I don’t know where you live, but in the West Midlands Bexit is likely to be a bigger issue than in 2017. Then, a lot of people (including Labour voters) assumed it was settled and voted on other issues. Given what’s happened since this won’t be the case this time round.



What are you basing that on?

Anecdotally, although in my city (Nottingham) most people voted leave, few people are that bothered about it compared to various other issues. Brexit or no Brexit the city will return 3 Labour MPs as it always does and Broxtowe next door is likely to swing to Labour as well.


----------



## strung out (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Green candidate stands down and throws support behind Labour
> 
> A Green candidate in Bristol has stood down and backed labour in an apparent fuck you to her party's 'remain alliance' bullshit.


Tom is a good friend of mine - he said he was going to use the money he saves from his Green Party subs to renew his membership of IWW.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Green candidate stands down and throws support behind Labour
> 
> A Green candidate in Bristol has stood down and backed labour in an apparent fuck you to her party's 'remain alliance' bullshit.



Awesome, they could’ve run a picture of the guy the story actually refers to, but went instead with a headline image of the pretty blonde labour candidate and lower down the page, three attractive female members of the Green Party leadership.

Article edited by an old bloke in a raincoat, no doubt.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm sure - my only point there was that a 'leave seat' covers a lot of different types of seat, with lots of different things in play - you can't generalise about them in the way you were doing.



There are lots of different types of leave seats. Posh ones in the south of England, rural ones, coastal ones and those in deindustrialised towns in the Midlands, North and Wales.

But it’s entirely legitimate to ask a) the extent to which Labour’s policy shift on Brexit will affect its vote in all of these type of seat and b) if a ‘leave alliance’ where one leave candidate from the BP/Tories runs against Labour what the effect would be and also what happen if the BP/Tories are both competitive in these type of seats. 

I‘ll also be interested to see how Labour candidates who voted for Johnson’s deal like Lisa Nandy do.

You seem to take the view that these aren’t significant points. We will have to disagree


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What are you basing that on?
> 
> Anecdotally, although in my city (Nottingham) most people voted leave, few people are that bothered about it compared to various other issues. Brexit or no Brexit the city will return 3 Labour MPs as it always does and Broxtowe next door is likely to swing to Labour as well.



According to a yougov survey brexit is the biggest issue, we could take that with a pinch salt, but the lead is massive.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

Bearing in mind remain has been ahead in the polls for some time now some recalibration of what constitutes a 'leave seat' is required, even for those who insist on running with the idea that nobody is voting about anything besides the EU in this election.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What are you basing that on?
> 
> Anecdotally, although in my city (Nottingham) most people voted leave, few people are that bothered about it compared to various other issues. Brexit or no Brexit the city will return 3 Labour MPs as it always does and Broxtowe next door is likely to swing to Labour as well.



Anecdotal too, also feedback from Labour Party members who’ve been out and about in the Black Country and other peripheral places around the City. I’ve got no doubt Labour will do well in Birmingham, even though it narrowly voted leave. But the election isn’t going to be won or lost in the cities.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> According to a yougov survey brexit is the biggest issue, we could take that with a pinch salt, but the lead is massive.
> 
> View attachment 189701


Despite my deep misgivings about their recent absurd action on public transport; props to XR, increasing the environment % to that extent in the context of all else falling away in the face of Brexit...impressive.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Bearing in mind remain has been ahead in the polls for some time now some recalibration of what constitutes a 'leave seat' is required, even for those who insist on running with the idea that nobody is voting about anything besides the EU in this election.



The reason that nobody has done that type of ‘recalibration’ is because the remain ‘lead’ is too marginal for it to be considered significant. In fact it’s lower than the ‘lead’ it had before the referendum


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The reason that nobody has done that type of ‘recalibration’ is because the remain ‘lead’ is too marginal for it to be considered significant. In fact it’s lower than the ‘lead’ it had before the referendum



You can't use inverted commas three times in a two-sentence post it just looks silly.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> You can't use inverted commas three times in a two-sentence post it just looks silly.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Green candidate stands down and throws support behind Labour
> 
> A Green candidate in Bristol has stood down and backed labour in an apparent fuck you to her party's 'remain alliance' bullshit.


The 'Fuck You' vote from across the entire political spectrum is probably going to be a major factor in this election


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> You can't use inverted commas three times in a two-sentence post it just looks silly.


Oh 'really'?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 11, 2019)

An aside about this brexit party decision to contest only non-Tory seats: the 'decision' (sorry Frank) seems to have been falange just 'deciding' last night. It may well have been his game all along, to try and bluff his way into a formal deal with the tories. But regardless, there isn't even a nominal attempt at getting a decision of the wider party. A whole structure set up to do exactly what he wants. What a fucking twat.

Iirc, falange also chooses the candidates. Maybe the whole thing was the got into the 300s but was just too fucking lazy to come up with any more loons.  He probably stopped at the point where the next one would have be been George Galloway...


----------



## Arbeter Fraynd (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I expect that to be the case, like down the road from me, in Hastings.



bit baffled by this - Lib Dems are nowhere in Hastings, it's a tight Tory/Labour competition (well not Hastings itself which is easily Labour, but Rye/Fairlight/Winchelsea more Tory)


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 11, 2019)

Channel 4 interviewing three MPs that have left their parties for their opinion on the election, Nick Boles & Heidi Allen (ex Tory) and Gisela Stuart (Labour right, leaver), which is basically a Corbyn pile-on. Nice bit of balance...


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's certainly a bit of a game changer, and not great news for Labour.



At this stage perhaps Labour should boot Corbyn out and replace him with his more grounded brother, Piers.

Also Lord West has thrown the boot in on Jeremy today.

Yahoo is now part of Verizon Media


----------



## brogdale (Nov 11, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Channel 4 interviewing three MPs that have left their parties for their opinion on the election, Nick Boles & Heidi Allen (ex Tory) and Gisela Stuart (Labour right, leaver), which is basically a Corbyn pile-on. Nice bit of balance...


1st thing Stuart said was that she still a member of the Labour Party.


----------



## belboid (Nov 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> At this stage perhaps Labour should boot Corbyn out and replace him with his more grounded brother, Piers.
> 
> Also Lord West has thrown the boot in on Jeremy today.
> 
> Yahoo is now part of Verizon Media


Double fuck off!


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 11, 2019)

Whatever your opinions about either Brexit or Trident, it's a bit of long stretch trying to pretend they are in any way related.
I'm not sure where they're going with these personal attacks on Corbyn, most voters don't give a shit if he met with the IRA or Hamas 30 years ago or whether he is reluctant to press the big button (how is this not a good thing?), Most folks have more important things to worry about can they pay their rent at the end of the month, will their kids get a decent education, how long it takes to see a doctor.
The Tories can't come close on these issues and on the one thing where they could say something meaningful about Labour's woolly and vague mutterings about the top issue of the day they just fall back on their daft slogan of "Get Brexit Done"


----------



## agricola (Nov 11, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Whatever your opinions about either Brexit or Trident, it's a bit of long stretch trying to pretend they are in any way related.
> I'm not sure where they're going with these personal attacks on Corbyn, most voters don't give a shit if he met with the IRA or Hamas 30 years ago or whether he is reluctant to press the big button (how is this not a good thing?), Most folks have more important things to worry about can they pay their rent at the end of the month, will their kids get a decent education, how long it takes to see a doctor.
> The Tories can't come close on these issues and on the one thing where they could say something meaningful about Labour's woolly and vague mutterings about the top issue of the day they just fall back on their daft slogan of "Get Brexit Done"



TBF the biggest thing linking them together is how Labour have done nothing to actually respond to the questions that get raised.  How difficult would it be, for example, to respond to "_Would Corbyn push the button?_" with "_There is no button_"?


----------



## Supine (Nov 11, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Iirc, falange also chooses the candidates. Maybe the whole thing was the got into the 300s but was just too fucking lazy to come up with any more loons.  He probably stopped at the point where the next one would have be been George Galloway...



nah, he got them all and has pocketed the £100 each they paid. So that’s a cool 300k for grafting his own followers. A grifters gonna grift.


----------



## agricola (Nov 11, 2019)

Supine said:


> nah, he got them all and has pocketed the £100 each they paid. So that’s a cool 300k for grafting his own followers. A grifters gonna grift.



... and that is on top of the £2.50 a head entrance money to hear the great man speak, or all those people who paid £25 each for the right to be able to say they'd paid the Brexit Party £25.


----------



## newbie (Nov 11, 2019)

So, based on a promise from Johnson, Farage is selling the deal to the Leave hardcore, who hated it this morning.  If they follow his lead, is that the end of no deal as a political option?


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What are you basing that on?
> 
> Anecdotally, although in my city (Nottingham) most people voted leave, few people are that bothered about it compared to various other issues. Brexit or no Brexit the city will return 3 Labour MPs as it always does and Broxtowe next door is likely to swing to Labour as well.


I wouldn't bet on it. Neighbouring Mansfield went Tory at the last election after being solidly labour for the previous 96 years.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 12, 2019)

People are saying the next parliament will be full of loons of one stripe or another. I say, Iraq war, Afghanistan pointlessness, austerity and ideologically driven privatisation is evidently now 'loon' and we are where you led us. Here.

So thanks for that.

An Englishman's home is his castle. It isn't now so why?


----------



## Poi E (Nov 12, 2019)

An Englishman's home is is castle. So much in that. The need to secure defences against the depredations of the class system, yet wrapped up in aristocratic aspirations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

Poi E said:


> An Englishman's home is is castle. So much in that. The need to secure defences against the depredations of the class system, yet wrapped up in aristocratic aspirations.


No, it's actually a put-down. The invading aristos had proper castles, the Normans, but the English had hovels. Nonetheless the English were proud and no matter that a besieging force of two arthritic dogs could bust down a hovel nonetheless an English man's home was his castle. Norman humour.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Norman humour.



Fuck the Orcs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Fuck the Orcs.


Orc is from erk, raf slang for ground crew.


----------



## chilango (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Orc is from erk, raf slang for ground crew.



Ah.

I'd connected Orc to Oik.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Orc is from erk, raf slang for ground crew.



Orcs are what the Anglo-Saxons called their Norman oppressors.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Ah.
> 
> I'd connected Orc to Oik.



Basically the same thing then.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 12, 2019)

Helpfully, the Orcs are still pretty identifiable for the purposes of some fast lead.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

btw...the deal with Farage was not a deal...so...nothing here to scare the horses...


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You seem to take the view that these aren’t significant points. We will have to disagree


I don't think these aren't significant points - I just don't think they are necessarily as significant as you think they are, and I find the flattening of all the Labour heartlands into 'leave seats' from someone who demands nuance in the same breath worth challenging.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 12, 2019)

In case anyone was wondering what a progressive conservative looks like:


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There are lots of different types of leave seats. Posh ones in the south of England, rural ones, coastal ones and those in deindustrialised towns in the Midlands, North and Wales.
> 
> But it’s entirely legitimate to ask a) the extent to which Labour’s policy shift on Brexit will affect its vote in all of these type of seat and b) if a ‘leave alliance’ where one leave candidate from the BP/Tories runs against Labour what the effect would be and also what happen if the BP/Tories are both competitive in these type of seats.
> 
> ...


there's an interesting article in the mail about the bp declaration and the effect it may have A morale boost for Boris Johnson, but victory is far from certain, writes Professor Philip Cowley  | Daily Mail Online


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 12, 2019)

Supine said:


> nah, he got them all and has pocketed the £100 each they paid. So that’s a cool 300k for grafting his own followers. A grifters gonna grift.



30k but still, yes.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> 30k but still, yes.



Nope, it's £300k, as 3000 applied to be candidates, all paying £100.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

Poi E said:


> In case anyone was wondering what a progressive conservative looks like:
> 
> View attachment 189750


pls use the spoiler code for images like those


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

Ponzi politics


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Poncey politics


c4u


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

Sources say they're confident there's been no data breach.
Hmmm


----------



## The Boy (Nov 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 189755
> 
> Sources say they're confident there's been no data breach.
> Hmmm



Was just a DDoS by the looks of it.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 12, 2019)

The Boy said:


> Was just a DDoS by the looks of it.



Nice timing, on the day the lead story on many UK news websites is the report into Russian interference in UK politics. Someone seizing the opportunity to plant the idea in voters’ minds that that Russians don’t want Labour to win?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Nice timing, on the day the lead story on many UK news websites is the report into Russian interference in UK politics. Someone seizing the opportunity to plant the idea in voters minds that that Russians don’t want Labour to win?


Yeah...that said...just been speaking with a mate who's a CLP officer...she said that the campaign stuff had been even more glitchy/slow than normal over the last 24 hrs...so, sounds genuine?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

> Nick Boles, who was a Conservative MP, says he will vote for the Lib Dems in the 12 December election.
> 
> In a piece for the Evening Standard, he called Mr Johnson a "compulsive liar" and said he had "betrayed every single person he has ever had any dealings with: every woman who has ever loved him, every member of his family, every friend, every colleague, every employee, every constituent".
> 
> General election: Corbyn is a 'pharisee' and Johnson is a 'liar', says ex-Tory minister Nick Boles



The election that just keeps on giving.


----------



## pavski (Nov 12, 2019)

*Cough*
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

pavski said:


> *Cough*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


14 years and 6 months since you joined and this is your first message


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The election that just keeps on giving.


and there's a month to go


----------



## pavski (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> 14 years and 6 months since you joined and this is your first message


I just reported my own post. 

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The election that just keeps on giving.



He's right but what is it with all these 'centrists' throwing their rattles out of the pram.  Surely you can dislike the leader and still support the party?  Anyway isn't it supposed to be about your local candidate anyway?  Bunch of vain shallow nutters.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> He's right but what is it with all these 'centrists' throwing their rattles out of the pram.  Surely you can dislike the leader and still support the party?  Anyway isn't it supposed to be about your local candidate anyway?  Bunch of vain shallow nutters.



Can't help notice centrists are fond of insisting we all play centre field but as soon as anyone tries to move the ball left and back from the right it's dangerously populist...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there's an interesting article in the mail about the bp declaration and the effect it may have A morale boost for Boris Johnson, but victory is far from certain, writes Professor Philip Cowley  | Daily Mail Online



I think that’s about right. Although, it does mean the Tories can redeploy resources from defending some of these seats into target seats.

I’ve also heard (but not seen) that the Daily Mail has now ‘analysed’ where the BP should stand down in Labour held leave seats because the Tories are best placed to win there. They are encouraging their readers to email the BP and tell them to stand down in these seats.

There are about 50 seats in my estimation which are marginal and which both parties will need to win. The majority of these are leave voting. It’s delusional to think that the consequences of such an arrangement proposed by the Mail, formal or otherwise, might not be decisive. And yet some people clearly do. At the very least Labour should a) acknowledge the matter and b) consider taking steps to counter the developing situation


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 12, 2019)

Tories holding back on manifesto launch until two weeks before the election:

Conservatives set to delay manifesto launch until just two weeks before election

I suspect this is not only to avoid scrutiny, but also to see how things stand at this point so they can work out whether to risk putting in stuff they really want but might not get away with in a tight contest (like repealing of hunting ban, tax breaks for private healthcare and other long-desired policies)


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> whether to risk putting in stuff they really want but might not get away with in a tight contest (like repealing of hunting ban, tax breaks for private healthcare and other long-desired policies)


Surely if they get a majority they can just do all these things anyway? Why would they put them in their manifesto?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Surely if they get a majority they can just do all these things anyway? Why would they put them in their manifesto?


things that are in the manifesto fall under the parliament act and it's harder for them to be defeated if introduced

also, to get votes


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Tories holding back on manifesto launch until two weeks before the election:
> 
> Conservatives set to delay manifesto launch until just two weeks before election
> 
> I suspect this is not only to avoid scrutiny, but also to see how things stand at this point so they can work out whether to risk putting in stuff they really want but might not get away with in a tight contest (like repealing of hunting ban, tax breaks for private healthcare and other long-desired policies)


An incentive for Labour to get its manifesto out there as soon and vigorously as possible. As ever, hard to say exactly what is wise or unwise in the current political universe, but campaigning without a manifesto for weeks when your opponents are campaigning with one doesn't strike me as wise.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> things that are in the manifesto fall under the parliament act and it's harder for them to be defeated if introduced
> 
> also, to get votes


They dont, formally.  It is mere convention that manifesto promises aren't blocked by the Lords.  

And thy dont always stick to it - see, eg, Labours 2001 bill to...ban hunting!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> things that are in the manifesto fall under the parliament act and it's harder for them to be defeated if introduced
> 
> also, to get votes



I suspect their manifesto will basically be ‘crack down on crime through more police, build loads of hospitals and infrastructure/connectivity spending’.

Unless they are insane they’ll have learnt from 2017 when Timothy believed the lead was unassailable and the manifesto was an ideal time to ‘think the unthinkable’.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

Particularly given that the Tories are (very sensibly) not going to tell anyone their plans for govt, I am starting to worry that Labour have moved so far towards a Remain position that they will lose seats. Anyone care to tell me I'm wrong and it'll be ok?


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Anyone care to tell me I'm wrong and it'll be ok?


no-one is doing this.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

Labour scooped up most of the remain leaning voters in 2017 even though they ran on a 'honouring the referendum' ticket because it was assumed the matter was settled. That's no longer the case, and huge swathes of the remain vote have abandoned them for the Lib Dems and Greens because they promise harder remain policies. Labour can lose seats because of losing remain leaning voters, or they can lose seats because of losing leave leaning voters, but as things stand they're losing seats - probably lots of them - unless they can move the conversation off brexit and convince people to vote on other stuff.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Labour scooped up most of the remain leaning voters in 2017 even though they ran on a 'honouring the referendum' ticket because it was assumed the matter was settled. That's no longer the case, and huge swathes of the remain vote have abandoned them for the Lib Dems and Greens because they promise harder remain policies. Labour can lose seats because of losing remain leaning voters, or they can lose seats because of losing leave leaning voters, but as things stand they're losing seats - probably lots of them - unless they can move the conversation off brexit and convince people to vote on other stuff.



Well that sounds realistic but not comforting. Sigh.


----------



## chilango (Nov 12, 2019)

Goad the Tories into a shocked "how are yougoing to pay for all these great policies?" debate (they can't resist it) and then the conversation becomes rich vs poor.

Bingo.


----------



## ignatious (Nov 12, 2019)

Then they’ll just lie and say ‘economic growth’, and the debate shifts to labour’s ‘economic incompetence’. 

Anything that threatens the status quo just seems to get lost in the churn.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Well that sounds realistic but not comforting. Sigh.


There's no fantasy position Labour could have taken on Brexit that wouldn't have resulted in a massive loss of support from one side or the other, _if people decide to vote purely on their position on Brexit_. Their only hope is to make this election about more than brexit. They managed it last time, but as I said, it was assumed brexit was settled then. Much more tricky now.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> There's no fantasy position Labour could have taken on Brexit that wouldn't have resulted in a massive loss of support from one side or the other, _if people decide to vote purely on their position on Brexit_. Their only hope is to make this election about more than brexit. They managed it last time, but as I said, it was assumed brexit was settled then. Much more tricky now.



I think we've done this one before, but the position they had in 2017 worked pretty well.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think we've done this one before, but the position they had in 2017 worked pretty well.


It worked just fine, under quite different political conditions. There was a consensus on all sides that the referendum result should be honoured: that simply isn't the case anymore.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think we've done this one before, but the position they had in 2017 worked pretty well.


the position they had in 1997 worked pretty well (electorally).  But this isn't 1997.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> It worked just fine, under quite different political conditions. There was a consensus on all sides that the referendum result should be honoured: that simply isn't the case anymore.



I think quite a lot of the electorate - including a lot of Remain voters - think it is still the case that the referendum result should be honoured. That circumstances appear to have changed is largely the fault of Starmer, Watson etc.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> the position they had in 1997 worked pretty well (electorally).  But this isn't 1997.



_Anything _would have worked in 1997.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> It worked just fine, under quite different political conditions. There was a consensus on all sides that the referendum result should be honoured: that simply isn't the case anymore.



Totally agreed, and it's going to be hard to stop this being a Brexit election, considering it's been all consuming for the last couple of years.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Particularly given that the Tories are (very sensibly) not going to tell anyone their plans for govt, I am starting to worry that Labour have moved so far towards a Remain position that they will lose seats. Anyone care to tell me I'm wrong and it'll be ok?



You’ll be amazed to learn that I agree with you Spacklefrog.

What amazes me - on purely party political grounds, and setting aside for a moment any_ political analysis of the EU - _is that the majority of key swing seats are leave voting. 

The surrender to dumb knee jerking by remainers in such circumstances is astonishing.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

Here's a kiss of death if ever there was one. 

'Shameful' not to publish Russia report - Clinton


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You’ll be amazed to learn that I agree with you Spacklefrog.
> 
> What amazes me - on purely party political grounds, and setting aside for a moment any_ political analysis of the EU - _is that the majority of key swing seats are leave voting.
> 
> The surrender to dumb knee jerking by remainers in such circumstances is astonishing.


But regardless of the leave/remain lean in key swing seats, the - vast - majority of the membership, activists and MPs of the Labour Party are remain. The vast majority of their support from the 2017 election throughout the country is remain. That can't be ignored or wished away any more than the fact that key swing seats lean leave can be.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> But regardless of the leave/remain lean in key swing seats, the - vast - majority of the membership, activists and MPs of the Labour Party are remain. The vast majority of their support from the 2017 election throughout the country is remain. That can't be ignored or wished away any more than the fact that key swing seats lean leave can be.



It can be challenged though. It can be discussed. Ignoring it and muddling through hasn't helped anyone.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> But regardless of the leave/remain lean in key swing seats, the - vast - majority of the membership, activists and MPs of the Labour Party are remain. The vast majority of their support from the 2017 election throughout the country is remain. That can't be ignored or wished away any more than the fact that key swing seats lean leave can be.



The vast majority of the membership, activists and MPs of the Labour Party should perhaps recognise that their own personal peccadilloes have consequences when they come into contact with the electorate. 

As you correctly indicate Labour hoovered up remain support in 2017 when it had a perfectly sensible policy on Brexit.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

I can't see the point in continuing this when you just ignore half of what I'm saying.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 12, 2019)

Most of my bubble (majority younger than me in their thirties) are strongly Labour and strongly remain, and don’t really see a conflict, I’m seeing little leakage to lib dems (was a bit at the Euros but that wasn’t seen to matter in the same way). Other people’s bubbles may differ.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> I can't see the point in continuing this when you just ignore half of what I'm saying.



Which half sorry? 

Not wishing to drag it out, we've done it before, just what do you think we're ignoring?


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

You're going on about the 2017 policy as if it would have been fine to just stick with it. 

Anyway, it's an interesting turnaround for socialists to be advocating the narrow targeting of swing seats over all other concerns.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The vast majority of the membership, activists and MPs of the Labour Party should perhaps recognise that their own personal peccadilloes have consequences when they come into contact with the electorate.


An electorate that voted 64% remain, you mean? A higher percentage of Labour voters voted remain than voters for the SNP. It's way more than 'personal peccadilloes'. 

In this election, Labour needs to win a big number of votes from people who think Brexit is a really stupid thing to do generally, and that this tory hard brexit in particular is a vile thing to do. Alienate them and Labour really is fucked.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> But regardless of the leave/remain lean in key swing seats, the - vast - majority of the membership, activists and MPs of the Labour Party are remain. The vast majority of their support from the 2017 election throughout the country is remain. That can't be ignored or wished away any more than the fact that key swing seats lean leave can be.


I'll accept that the contradictions in and between labour's members, voters and activists could never easily be resolved. But the problem is what Labour did with those contradictions, all the decidingnot to decide, waiting till this that or the other NEC meeting and the rest. Labour's body language on brexit has been dreadful, a body language that made even theresa may look resolute and looks bad against the 'getting it done' narrative of the current twat. There's an element of hindsight here, admittedly, but the moment they voted for Article 50, there should have been an aggressive articulation of a lexit (of sorts - it would have been a social democratic exit vision). I've no idea, but it might well have meant some version of the single market, but allied with a real push on workers rights and the rest - and most of all tied in with a confident left agenda at home. There would have been something there for both leave and remain areas, maybe even a way of getting beyond fucking brexit.

We've obviously been round and round these issues, but I only mention is a component of labour's current problems. They haven't really got much to say to _either _leave or remain areas.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

David Lammy has basically admitted Labour is in trouble, by calling on Corbyn to get into bed with the LidDems, etc.

Jeremy Corbyn urged to cut deals and form 'Remain alliance' to defeat the Tories


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> David Lammy has basically admitted Labour is in trouble, by calling on Corbyn to get into bed with the LidDems, etc.
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn urged to cut deals and form 'Remain alliance' to defeat the Tories



London based remain backing MP thinks Labour should go all out remain?

This is not a huge surprise, no?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> _Anything _would have worked in 1997.



Tbf people said that in 87 and 92..


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'll accept that the contradictions in and between labour's members, voters and activists could never easily be resolved. But the problem is what Labour did with those contradictions, all the decidingnot to decide, waiting till this that or the other NEC meeting and the rest. Labour's body language on brexit has been dreadful, a body language that made even theresa may look resolute and looks bad against the 'getting it done' narrative of the current twat. There's an element of hindsight here, admittedly, but the moment they voted for Article 50, there should have been an aggressive articulation of a lexit (of sorts - it would have been a social democratic exit vision). I've no idea, but it might well have meant some version of the single market, but allied with a real push on workers rights and the rest - and most of all tied in with a confident left agenda at home. There would have been something there for both leave and remain areas, maybe even a way of getting beyond fucking brexit.
> 
> We've obviously been round and round these issues, but I only mention is a component of labour's current problems. They haven't really got much to say to _either _leave or remain areas.


They accepted the Tory line that the referendum result meant the need to end free movement because it showed that's what a majority wanted (it did nothing of the kind). That was a massive mistake, imo. It instantly cut off various forms of brexit that involved the single market.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> London based remain backing MP thinks Labour should go all out remain?
> 
> This is not a huge surprise, no?



Nope, no surprise.

Can't see it flying myself, what with the LibDems being somewhat toxic from the coalition years for a majority of Labour voters, and Swinson claiming she would never help to put Corbyn into No. 10.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Tbf people said that in 87 and 92..


and how prescient they were


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 12, 2019)

Received the 4th or 5th lib dem flier through the post today.  Not a surprise as we have an incumbent lim dem MP and is a strong remain area.  What is interesting is that I have seen nothing at all from the tories.  This in a seat they held going into 2017 albeit on an outlier of the lib dem collapse in 2015.  Still, you'd think they'd give it a bit of a go.

This all ties in with the other news of tory mp's in London marginals trying to pretend brexit and Johnson don't exist.  There is a lot of a talk on here about the Labour remain seats in the North and Midlands but it's clear to me that the tories are braced for a torrid time in London and likely other metropolitan areas not to mention the whole of Scotland.

I'm not a betting person but if I was I'd still be edging towards another hung parliament.


----------



## chilango (Nov 12, 2019)

If people's votes are determined by Brexit Labour cannot win. They're fucked whatever position they take.

Once again.

If Labour can make it about everything, anything, else they've got a shot.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> You're going on about the 2017 policy as if it would have been fine to just stick with it.
> 
> Anyway, it's an interesting turnaround for socialists to be advocating the narrow targeting of swing seats over all other concerns.



I think it would have been fine to stick with it. Sticking with it would have to mean defending it against attack from the Labour right, of course, but again I don't think that's something Corbyn should have shied away from. 

I'm not advocating the targeting of swing seats over all other concerns either to be fair, I'm just saying it's hard to see how this shift towards Remain is helpful or positive.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'll accept that the contradictions in and between labour's members, voters and activists could never easily be resolved. But the problem is what Labour did with those contradictions, all the decidingnot to decide, waiting till this that or the other NEC meeting and the rest. Labour's body language on brexit has been dreadful, a body language that made even theresa may look resolute and looks bad against the 'getting it done' narrative of the current twat. There's an element of hindsight here, admittedly, but the moment they voted for Article 50, there should have been an aggressive articulation of a lexit (of sorts - it would have been a social democratic exit vision). I've no idea, but it might well have meant some version of the single market, but allied with a real push on workers rights and the rest - and most of all tied in with a confident left agenda at home. There would have been something there for both leave and remain areas, maybe even a way of getting beyond fucking brexit.


I don't know how all this stuff can have been possible in the middle of an internal civil war in which one side of the party was using brexit as it's main means of destabilising the other. This kind of message discipline on policy which goes against the wishes of most of the membership & support base would have been difficult at the best of times: under the conditions Labour have been (cough) labouring under the past few years? No chance.



Wilf said:


> We've obviously been round and round these issues, but I only mention is a component of labour's current problems. They haven't really got much to say to _either _leave or remain areas.



Is this true? We can all talk about how far Labour policy goes, but it's inarguable that their manifesto completely changed the election campaign in 2017. The policies they've rolled out this time seem to be in a similar vein. Whether it gets a proper hearing is another question.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Tbf people said that in 87 and 92..



But I didn't. They were wrong.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They accepted the Tory line that the referendum result meant the need to end free movement because it showed that's what a majority wanted (it did nothing of the kind). That was a massive mistake, imo. It instantly cut off various forms of brexit that involved the single market.



No. The single market isn't really free movement from any sort of class perspective. Added to which in 2017 Corbyn pledged not to introduce any new immigration controls.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't know how all this stuff can have been possible in the middle of an internal civil war in which one side of the party was using brexit as it's main means of destabilising the other. This kind of message discipline on policy which goes against the wishes of most of the membership & support base would have been difficult at the best of times: under the conditions Labour have been (cough) labouring under the past few years? No chance.



The thing about that argument is that if this means Labour do poorly at this election, it means using Brexit to destabilise Corbyn worked. So you're edging towards saying that there was nothing Corbyn could do to stop his leadership being destabilised.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> _Anything _would have worked in 1997.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

I think we've already been over this...but...I've actually bothered to look it up now.(noticing today how quickly it got dark wot prompted it)

So, perhaps surprisingly (? it not being the Solstice - shortest day) Johnson seems to have chosen a date for the General Election which falls within the 5 day period of earliest sunsets (15:51pm). Although, because of the sunrise differences 12/12/19 has, in total 5 minutes more light than the days around the Solstice.



So, well done Johnson...you've actually determined GE day will, pretty much, feel like the shortest day to many folk. Heard some ERO or summat from the IoW (likely to have one of the latest sunset times) say that he reckoned that there'd be approx 7.5hrs of darkness for polling.

Anyway...nerding over.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


>



What? Are you going to tell me it was neccessary for Blair to scrap clause 4 and move the party to the right in order to win? 

That Major govt after the ERM disaster was fucked whatever Labour did.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I think we've already been over this...but...I've actually bothered to look it up now.(noticing today how quickly it got dark wot prompted it)
> 
> So, perhaps surprisingly (? it not being the Solstice - shortest day) Johnson seems to have chosen a date for the General Election which falls within the 5 day period of earliest sunsets (15:51pm). Although, because of the sunrise differences 12/12/19 has, in total 5 minutes more light than the days around the Solstice.
> 
> ...



Excellent nerding. I've actually been wondering if a December election will mean fewer older voters turning out. Have we done that yet?


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'll accept that the contradictions in and between labour's members, voters and activists could never easily be resolved. But the problem is what Labour did with those contradictions, all the decidingnot to decide, waiting till this that or the other NEC meeting and the rest. Labour's body language on brexit has been dreadful, a body language that made even theresa may look resolute and looks bad against the 'getting it done' narrative of the current twat. There's an element of hindsight here, admittedly, but the moment they voted for Article 50, *there should have been an aggressive articulation of a lexit (of sorts - it would have been a social democratic exit vision). I've no idea, but it might well have meant some version of the single market, but allied with a real push on workers rights and the rest* - and most of all tied in with a confident left agenda at home. There would have been something there for both leave and remain areas, maybe even a way of getting beyond fucking brexit.
> 
> We've obviously been round and round these issues, but I only mention is a component of labour's current problems. They haven't really got much to say to _either _leave or remain areas.


That's exactly what they did argue for. That the argument got lost amidst cretins from left and right calling for (close as damn it to) no deal or revoke may well be true, but it isnt true that they didn't make it.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What? Are you going to tell me it was neccessary for Blair to scrap clause 4 and move the party to the right in order to win?
> 
> That Major govt after the ERM disaster was fucked whatever Labour did.


No dear, I'm pointing out that you miss the point. Then is not now, and itmatters little whether we are talking about 1917, 1945 or 1917.  Ideas aren't just like shoes that you can pull out from under the bed and slip back on your feet twenty years later.  Things move on, Labour need a new and even better manifesto.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Nope, it's £300k, as 3000 applied to be candidates, all paying £100.



3000? Just _applying_ to be candidates? That's fucking hilarious. Made my day.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> The thing about that argument is that if this means Labour do poorly at this election, it means using Brexit to destabilise Corbyn worked. So you're edging towards saying that there was nothing Corbyn could do to stop his leadership being destabilised.


Good job we're heading for a Labour majority then huh? 

FWIW though, Corbyn has always been up against it. They could have done some things better, but jesus christ.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Excellent nerding. I've actually been wondering if a December election will mean fewer older voters turning out. Have we done that yet?


I'd say that there's got to be a risk of that, especially given the increased likelihood of discouraging weather, (anyone who lives off the proper/bigger M&S reductions of "Tramps' buffet" knows that a good dose of cold & rain can keep the oldies at home with Countdown, leaving the yellow labels for the younger cost-conscious).

The serious point is that this has the potential to really expose differential rates of Postal Vote amongst the older voters by party. Around my neck of the woods the vermin/yellow vermin have always been cynically good at the 'granny-farming' by going into homes etc. to hoover up the PV. If the LP were less likely to have their older voters (who vote) on PV then the time of the year/weather could play a role and not in a good way for them.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Excellent nerding. I've actually been wondering if a December election will mean fewer older voters turning out. Have we done that yet?



Hmm, first time I've seen this brought up, likely to be a few factors playing into it. 
The weather could be a significant factor - imagine if we had a big freeze...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

Is there any polling on what key issues are driving voters this election and in what proportions? Obviously entirely anecdotal this but most of the people I talk to day to day aren't political nerd types and have been surprised to hear a few heavy leave types I know - a few weeks ago were banging on about how anything but no deal isn't brexit, one I know def voted brexit party at euros but a couple more probably did - say they are voting labour. They're obviously not doing this based on brexit.

I know this means nothing by itself but would be interested to see what key issues are for voters and in what %s


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is there any polling on what key issues are driving voters this election and in what proportions?



This is all I've seen...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> This is all I've seen...
> 
> View attachment 189788


Fucking hell, 70%, that's depressing


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Fucking hell, 70%, that's depressing


Yeah, but it's a catch all tag...L & R...bound to be high given that politics has been little else for yonks.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

And, it's why Labour is going to struggle to make this anything other than the Brexit election, which was Johnson's plan.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think it would have been fine to stick with it. Sticking with it would have to mean defending it against attack from the Labour right, of course, but again I don't think that's something Corbyn should have shied away from.
> 
> I'm not advocating the targeting of swing seats over all other concerns either to be fair, I'm just saying it's hard to see how this shift towards Remain is helpful or positive.


The only detailed constituency by constituency projections of the election so far is the Best for Britain MRP, which paints a very bad picture for Labour in the Brexit leaning marginals - but it's hard to see how they could make this picture much better by tacking towards leave.

If we look at Crewe & Nantwich (line 123): the projection has the tories on 38%, Labour on 28%, LDs on 10%, Greens on 5% and Brexit on 15%. Last time, the greens didn't even stand and the LDs & UKIP were nowhere - Labour and the Tories were both on 47%.

There's 15% hard brexit and 15% hard remain votes moved from Labour / Tories to smaller parties since 2017: which 15% do they chase? I don't think there's any easy answers.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't know how all this stuff can have been possible in the middle of an internal civil war in which one side of the party was using brexit as it's main means of destabilising the other. This kind of message discipline on policy which goes against the wishes of most of the membership & support base would have been difficult at the best of times: under the conditions Labour have been (cough) labouring under the past few years? No chance.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this true? We can all talk about how far Labour policy goes, but it's inarguable that their manifesto completely changed the election campaign in 2017. The policies they've rolled out this time seem to be in a similar vein. Whether it gets a proper hearing is another question.


On the first para, my point is that from the Article 50 vote onwards the leadership should have been seeking to build _something _rather than avoiding having something because of their fear of the internal/voter divisions.  Yeah, hindsight as I said, but I think there was a way through this. Not an easy one, not one that necessarily pulled the party together, but something that started with the social democratic vision, the defence of workers interests and then formulated brexit accordingly. Technically, the 6 tests (was it six?) did that, but in a rather smug way that used the tests to avoid facing up to divides, flack and the rest. The lack of that assertive message has still, right up to fucking now, left Starmer unable to answer whether he would vote for his own party's future renegotiated deal. There's very little in labour's faffing about that resonates with people's lives.

Just on the second para, we may be at cross purposes. I meant that on brexit itself labour now have very little they can offer to leave or remain areas. In terms of wider policies, they certainly have got things to say, as in 2017, over health, privatisation and the rest.  That's their one hope. Trouble is the brexit silence has taken them further away from the voters.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> That's exactly what they did argue for. That the argument got lost amidst cretins from left and right calling for (close as damn it to) no deal or revoke may well be true, but it isnt true that they didn't make it.


But as I said in reply to killer b, that was largely in the '6 tests' or the late in the day offer to May to get her deal through. It was institutional/parliamentary politics and I certainly didn't see it as part of a real, engaged, attempt at meeting the concerns that led to the leave vote.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> No dear, I'm pointing out that you miss the point. Then is not now, and itmatters little whether we are talking about 1917, 1945 or 1917.  Ideas aren't just like shoes that you can pull out from under the bed and slip back on your feet twenty years later.  Things move on, Labour need a new and even better manifesto.



I think you're fucking about and being tiresome, you're not pointing anything out to me. But if Labour need a new and even better manifesto as you claim, what is better about their Brexit position now?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Good job we're heading for a Labour majority then huh?
> 
> FWIW though, Corbyn has always been up against it. They could have done some things better, but jesus christ.



A lot of things that could have been done better, lets be real. Don't disagree he has been in a very difficult situation though.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> That's exactly what they did argue for. That the argument got lost amidst cretins from left and right calling for (close as damn it to) no deal or revoke may well be true, but it isnt true that they didn't make it.



What cretins from the left were calling for no deal or revoke?


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> But as I said in reply to killer b, that was largely in the '6 tests' or the late in the day offer to May to get her deal through. It was institutional/parliamentary politics and I certainly didn't see it as part of a real, engaged, attempt at meeting the concerns that led to the leave vote.


But most of those concerns weren't really anything to do with our relationship with the EU - except for around immigration. The decades of under-investment and deindustrialisation that fucked those communities and led to the breakdown in community weren't caused by the EU. They are being addressed by the rest of Labour policy, policy that would (and could) be implemented whether in the EU or not.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think you're fucking about and being tiresome, you're not pointing anything out to me. But if Labour need a new and even better manifesto as you claim, what is better about their Brexit position now?


No, I'm being patronising. 

And it is basically the same position on Brexit this time around - negotiate a better version still based around the six tests. They've just added the public vote now.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What cretins from the left were calling for no deal or revoke?


the full brexit lot and paul mason


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Fucking hell, 70%, that's depressing



All it's really saying is what the interviewee thinks is the issue most people think is important. If you ask someone what _they_ think is important atm I reckon the spread is likely going to be markedly different.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I think you're fucking about and being tiresome, you're not pointing anything out to me. But if Labour need a new and even better manifesto as you claim, what is better about their Brexit position now?



There are I think two problems with it. Firstly, the notion that corbyn is going to cut a deal with the EU, get it through the commons and set up and deliver a referendum within 6 months seems, after the past three and a half years, a somewhat stretching target. The decision to pursue bilateral agreements with 27 other countries over free movement further muddies the credibility waters.

Secondly, the ‘we are going to let the people decide’ argument sounds risible given the events that have led to the election and the fact that a number of shadow cabinet ministers have already made clear they’ll be campaigning against their own deal.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> No, I'm being patronising.
> 
> And it is basically the same position on Brexit this time around - negotiate a better version still based around the six tests. They've just added the public vote now.



You are being fucking stupid if you are seriously arguing this line. ‘They’ve just added the public vote’ ffs


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> All it's really saying is what the interviewee thinks is the issue most people think is important. If you ask someone what _they_ think is important atm I reckon the spread is likely going to be markedly different.



Err?

The question was - what do YOU think.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are being fucking stupid if you are seriously arguing this line. ‘They’ve just added the public vote’ ffs


The public vote bit is pretty important, for sure, but what else, formally, has changed?  

It's not about the reality, it's about the perception.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 12, 2019)

Politically Brexit is everywhere, so of course it's seen as the "most important issue" when answering a Yougov poll. But practically? It's an abstracted concept. Media fulminating on Brexit isn't the reason why hospitals are short staffed and housing is in crisis, nor is it the reason the right wing is so united against Corbyn.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> A lot of things that could have been done better, lets be real.


Very easy for us to say. It's almost impossible to really have a clear view of it though, so I won't.


----------



## gosub (Nov 12, 2019)

Missing UKIP, 

Who's left to blame the flooding in Yorks hire on homosexuality


----------



## Wilf (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> But most of those concerns weren't really anything to do with our relationship with the EU - except for around immigration. The decades of under-investment and deindustrialisation that fucked those communities and led to the breakdown in community weren't caused by the EU. They are being addressed by the rest of Labour policy, policy that would (and could) be implemented whether in the EU or not.


Yeah, they weren't, true. But they were in part what drove the leave vote and certainly the last 3 years would have been a good time for Labour to get back, explicitly, overtly and loudly, on the side of those communities. Something that in turn was about policy but much more than policy. It's about matching your stance on brexit to deeper issues about neoliberalism, but also using that to get beyond brexit. Ultimately this was about having a stance on brexit that was part of something bigger and more important. Instead, here we are, with high % of voters not knowing what Labour's policy has been - and no signs of enthusiasm about the new renegotiations/2nd ref version.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> The public vote bit is pretty important, for sure, but what else, formally, has changed?
> 
> It's not about the reality, it's about the perception.



what has formally changed, in addition to the trifling decision to hold a second referendum, is Labour’s position. It’s gone from a commitment to deliver a ‘People’s Brexit’ to their deal v remain. Do we even know if Labour will campaign for its own deal or if their members and MPs will be free to campaign against it?


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> what has formally changed, in addition to the trifling decision to hold a second referendum, is Labour’s position. It’s gone from a commitment to deliver a ‘People’s Brexit’ to their deal v remain. Do we even know if Labour will campaign for its own deal or if their members and MPs will be free to campaign against it?


So you cant actually name one thing that has changed, other than what I said.  Their deal, obviously being the 'People's Brexit' they were talking about in 2017.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> what has formally changed, in addition to the trifling decision to hold a second referendum, is Labour’s position. It’s gone from a commitment to deliver a ‘People’s Brexit’ to their deal v remain. Do we even know if Labour will campaign for its own deal or if their members and MPs will be free to campaign against it?


Yeah, the doctored video of keir starmer was, indirectly, quite accurate.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, the doctored video of keir starmer was, indirectly, quite accurate.



People bleating about what Labour could have done differently should start their enquiries with the role and latitude given to Starmer


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> So you cant actually name one thing that has changed, other than what I said.  Their deal, obviously being the 'People's Brexit' they were talking about.



What? Let’s try it again.

2017: we respect the referendum result and we will deliver it via a people’s Brexit focussed on jobs

2019: we respect the referendum result so we will negotiate a deal which we will then put to a second referendum. Our position in that referendum is as yet unclear. We will probably have a special conference to decide if we back our deal, or remain or a free vote for all.

You think this is essentially the same. Fuck me, no wonder Labour are fucked


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, they weren't, true. But they were in part what drove the leave vote and certainly the last 3 years would have been a good time for Labour to get back, explicitly, overtly and loudly, on the side of those communities. Something that in turn was about policy but much more than policy. It's about matching your stance on brexit to deeper issues about neoliberalism, but also using that to get beyond brexit. Ultimately this was about having a stance on brexit that was part of something bigger and more important. Instead, here we are, with high % of voters not knowing what Labour's policy has been - and no signs of enthusiasm about the new renegotiations/2nd ref version.


So, you're talking about framing everything as bring about Brexit?  Because Labour have been talking, explicitly and overtly, about being on the side of those communities, _whatever _the result of Brexit. They've been saying they'll invest in those communities, they'll give money for hospitals, social care, flood defences, etc etc, whatever the outcome. The gains for those communities from Brexit are quite marginal, and the priorities for them can be carried out whether we are a member of the trading bloc or not.


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## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> But most of those concerns weren't really anything to do with our relationship with the EU - except for around immigration. The decades of under-investment and deindustrialisation that fucked those communities and led to the breakdown in community weren't caused by the EU. They are being addressed by the rest of Labour policy, policy that would (and could) be implemented whether in the EU or not.


Deindustrialisation was caused by the EU though. Not in isolation and it would have happened outside of the EU too but point stands. That's how freedom of capital within a single market with varying labour markets works. Would Cadburys have shifted production from UK sites to Poland without the EU?


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What? Let’s try it again.
> 
> 2017: we respect the referendum result and we will deliver it via a people’s Brexit focussed on jobs
> 
> ...


Once again, you fail to make any specific distinction, beyond the second referendum.

I'll say it again. The People's Brexit from 2017 is the same deal they are talking about now, a people's brexit focussed on jobs.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Deindustrialisation was caused by the EU though. Not in isolation and it would have happened outside of the EU too but point stands. That's how freedom of capital within a single market with varying labour markets works. Would Cadburys have shifted production from UK sites to Poland without the EU?


So it would have happened anyway, and they weren't a driver, but they did cause it?  Makes no sense. Cadbury's would probably have shifted them somewhere.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> Once again, you fail to make any specific distinction, beyond the second referendum.
> 
> I'll say it again. The People's Brexit from 2017 is the same deal they are talking about now, a people's brexit focussed on jobs.



The deal they seek to negotiate is the same. What they intend to then do with it. And their position on it is not. 

Their position is effectively the Blair/Campbell People’s Vote campaign position


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> So it would have happened anyway, and they weren't a driver, but they did cause it?  Makes no sense. Cadbury's would probably have shifted them somewhere.



Proper Tidy, as you well know, is arguing that the key function of the EU is the facilitation of the free movement of capital. Deindustrialisation and capital flight was actively facilitated by both the EU and the Thatcher Government. The latter would have found it harder without, for example, the EU Coal and Steel community imposing quotas and demanding closures on member states


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## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Except they don't want to renegotiate the deal, which is pretty significant.


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## andysays (Nov 12, 2019)

Welsh Tories have apparently chosen Chris Davies as their candidate in Ynes Mos.

He's the one who lost Brecon and Radnor by election after being convicted of expenses fraud, of course


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## Marty1 (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The deal they seek to negotiate is the same. What they intend to then do with it. And their position on it is not.
> 
> Their position is effectively the Blair/Campbell People’s Vote campaign position



Let’s not beat around the bush, if Labour get into power it’s highly unlikely Brexit will happen.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Let’s not beat around the bush, if Labour get into power it’s highly unlikely Brexit will happen.


Only true on the assumption that Brexit is not what the majority of the voting public want.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> So it would have happened anyway, and they weren't a driver, but they did cause it?  Makes no sense. They'd probably have shifted them somewhere.



Yes, deindustrialisation of the UK would have happened outside of the EU, while at same time being entrenched and furthered by the EU which is, fundamentally, about creating and enforcing a single market across multiple labour markets ranging from developed to low wage economies, thus meaning deindustrialisation is inevitable. There is no contradiction here and it makes perfect sense. What other view could a socialist take?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 12, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Only true on the assumption that Brexit is not what the majority of the voting public want.


----------



## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Channel 4 interviewing three MPs that have left their parties for their opinion on the election, Nick Boles & Heidi Allen (ex Tory) and Gisela Stuart (Labour right, leaver), which is basically a Corbyn pile-on. Nice bit of balance...




yes it was appalling, real bias.


----------



## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Whatever your opinions about either Brexit or Trident, it's a bit of long stretch trying to pretend they are in any way related.
> I'm not sure where they're going with these personal attacks on Corbyn, *most voters don't give a shit if he met with the IRA or Hamas 30 years ago *or whether he is reluctant to press the big button (how is this not a good thing?), Most folks have more important things to worry about can they pay their rent at the end of the month, will their kids get a decent education, how long it takes to see a doctor.
> The Tories can't come close on these issues and on the one thing where they could say something meaningful about Labour's woolly and vague mutterings about the top issue of the day they just fall back on their daft slogan of "Get Brexit Done"



actually many men of a certain age do, my brother in law in his sixties, blairite, is spitting blood about JC and McDonnell,  IRA, etc.


----------



## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

Supine said:


> nah, he got them all and has pocketed the £100 each they paid. So that’s a cool 300k for grafting his own followers. A grifters gonna grift.



The upmarket tommy robinson, I wonder if he would have been a Spiv in the 40's?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> actually many men of a certain age do, my brother in law in his sixties, blairite, is spitting blood about JC and McDonnell,  IRA, etc.


But IRA-obsessed right wing men in their sixties are not most voters. They aren't even most men in their sixties.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 12, 2019)

andysays said:


> Welsh Tories have apparently chosen Chris Davies as their candidate in Ynes Mos.
> 
> He's the one who lost Brecon and Radnor by election after being convicted of expenses fraud, of course



Ynys Môn, aka Anglesey. 5000 Labour majority in a three way split. LDs have stood aside and I’m sure the 479 votes (1.3%) they got last time will be a massive help to PC.


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## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The election that just keeps on giving.



Boles was the libertarian who claimed to like 'creative destruction' in politics, changed his tune.


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## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Proper Tidy, as you well know, is arguing that the key function of the EU is the facilitation of the free movement of capital. Deindustrialisation and capital flight was actively facilitated by both the EU and the Thatcher Government. The latter would have found it harder without, for example, the EU Coal and Steel community imposing quotas and demanding closures on member states


...and the Thatcher government....

The EU, especially pre-Maastricht, had virtually zero effect upon deindustrialisation. _Nothing _to do with the closing of the mines or the steel industry or the docks. Under-investment has overwhelmingly been caused by financialisation.  



Proper Tidy said:


> Yes, deindustrialisation of the UK would have happened outside of the EU, while at same time being entrenched and furthered by the EU which is, fundamentally, about creating and enforcing a single market across multiple labour markets ranging from developed to low wage economies, thus meaning deindustrialisation is inevitable. There is no contradiction here and it makes perfect sense. What other view could a socialist take?


a socialist should recognise the contradictions. The EU is also there to protect 'heavy industry' in member states, and used there rules to stop a complete rush to the bottom by moving industries lock stock to eastern europe after its collapse, which the tories would have loved to do given no constraints. 

Of course the EU is a bloc within which its easy for a neo-liberal state to operate. Slightly easier than it is outside of it.  But it's still not very difficult to operate as a neo-liberal state outside of it, and as all our governments for the last forty years have been neo-liberal....


----------



## agricola (Nov 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> The upmarket tommy robinson, I wonder if he would have been a Spiv in the 40's?



More likely he'd have been the sort who went around telling everyone that the Japanese couldn't see in the dark, or things more than three meters away.


----------



## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The vast majority of the membership, activists and MPs of the Labour Party should perhaps recognise that their own personal peccadilloes have consequences when they come into contact with the electorate.
> 
> As you correctly indicate Labour hoovered up remain support in 2017 when it had a perfectly sensible policy on Brexit.



Absolutely, they are pushing for more open borders(not complete)/free movement in the manifesto

at our CLP meeting, most were affluent public sector home owner types, and however much they care, even if they were from WC background, their priority seemed to be international ones, migration, etc, etc.There was a food bank collection , that for 80 odd people wasn't exactly substantial.

Waits for Belboid to put me right,


----------



## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'll accept that the contradictions in and between labour's members, voters and activists could never easily be resolved. But the problem is what Labour did with those contradictions, all the decidingnot to decide, waiting till this that or the other NEC meeting and the rest. Labour's body language on brexit has been dreadful, a body language that made even theresa may look resolute and looks bad against the 'getting it done' narrative of the current twat. There's an element of hindsight here, admittedly, but the moment they voted for Article 50, there should have been an aggressive articulation of a lexit (of sorts - it would have been a social democratic exit vision). I've no idea, but it might well have meant some version of the single market, but allied with a real push on workers rights and the rest - and most of all tied in with a confident left agenda at home. There would have been something there for both leave and remain areas, maybe even a way of getting beyond fucking brexit.
> 
> We've obviously been round and round these issues, but I only mention is a component of labour's current problems. They haven't really got much to say to _either _leave or remain areas.



Wilf For labour leader!


----------



## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> David Lammy has basically admitted Labour is in trouble, by calling on Corbyn to get into bed with the LidDems, etc.
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn urged to cut deals and form 'Remain alliance' to defeat the Tories



Bubble politician of a different kind


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## treelover (Nov 12, 2019)

> I don't know how all this stuff can have been possible in the middle of an internal civil war in which one side of the party was using brexit as it's main means of destabilising the other. This kind of message discipline on policy which goes against the wishes of most of the membership & support base would have been difficult at the best of times: under the conditions Labour have been (cough) labouring under the past few years? No chance.



R4, Today was all about Social Care this morning, Rishi Sunac was asked repeated what was their policy on it, he just kepy repeating Labout will spend 1,2 trillion, seems going for the Trumpian/High Thatcher era, appraoch.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> ...and the Thatcher government....
> 
> The EU, especially pre-Maastricht, had virtually zero effect upon deindustrialisation. _Nothing _to do with the closing of the mines or the steel industry or the docks. Under-investment has overwhelmingly been caused by financialisation.
> 
> ...



Can you give any examples of the EU protecting heavy industry or preventing production switches to low wage EU economies in eastern europe because I can only think of examples of it encouraging this


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

ECSC rules were all about protecting German industry. A lot of the 'social' regulations brought in in '92 were to stop a shift of industry to unregulated EE.  Their workers were generously allowed to come here instead.

EU 'regional' policy also allows for support for industry, the UK governments chose not to make use of it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Can you give any examples of the EU protecting heavy industry or preventing production switches to low wage EU economies in eastern europe because I can only think of examples of it encouraging this



No he can’t. What’s more he continues to pretend the EU didn’t play a role in imposing quotas or demanding closures.

As usual it’s nonsense. The EU Davignon Plan in the _in the mid 1970’s - _long before Maastricht- saw steel subject to common external trade barriers; required detailed production, employment and delivery forecasts from firms; set minimum prices and production quotas; and granted aid on the condition it was coupled with capacity and employment reductions.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> ECSC rules were all about protecting German industry. A lot of the 'social' regulations brought in in '92 were to stop a shift of industry to unregulated EE.  Their workers were generously allowed to come here instead.
> 
> EU 'regional' policy also allows for support for industry, the UK governments chose not to make use of it.



I assume the ECSC rules you cite here is referring to post war policy which I think you know is very silly. As silly as citing UK social democratic policy from same era.

Social chapter of Maastricht was about freedom of movement (of labour) with standardisation of labour rights to facilitate that freedom of movement of labour (for benefit of capital).


----------



## gosub (Nov 12, 2019)

Lib Dem candidate stands aside to avoid 'nightmare' of Tory win

Getting odder by the day in a sort of l9gicalway


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No he can’t. What’s more he continues to pretend the EU didn’t play a role in imposing quotas or demanding closures.
> 
> As usual it’s nonsense. The EU Davignon Plan in the _in the mid 1970’s - _long before Maastricht- saw steel subject to common external trade barriers; required detailed production, employment and delivery forecasts from firms; set minimum prices and production quotas; and granted aid on the condition it was coupled with capacity and employment reductions.


took you a while too google that. Can you do anything to show how it affected UK plants? and was not smashing the unions a rather more important factor?  

Germany and France spend double what the UK does on state aid. It was a UK government decision.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

gosub said:


> Lib Dem candidate stands aside to avoid 'nightmare' of Tory win
> 
> Getting odder by the day in a sort of l9gicalway


On C4News they said that the party had confirmed they would select and stand a replacement candidate to ensure that the tories take back the seat.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I assume the ECSC rules you cite here is referring to post war policy which I think you know is very silly. As silly as citing UK social democratic policy from same era.
> 
> Social chapter of Maastricht was about freedom of movement (of labour) with standardisation of labour rights to facilitate that freedom of movement of labour (for benefit of capital).


Yes, I just said that. But it wasn't just that. It did so in order to stop those industries (and the associated taxes revenue) from going somewhere else. It is about ensuring a market entry position that the eastern european nations couldnt match.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> took you a while too google that. Can you do anything to show how it affected UK plants? and was not smashing the unions a rather more important factor?
> 
> Germany and France spend double what the UK does on state aid. It was a UK government decision.



Given the steelworks where my dad worked - and was a steward - was closed as part of the BSC ‘contribution’ to the plan I don’t need to google it you prick. I’ve got lived experience of it.

As for numbers I think over 150,000 jobs were lost here during the period. However, we can both google the numbers if necessary. 

Now, how about answering the question from proper tidy or are you going to carry on embarrassing yourself?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> Yes, I just said that. But it wasn't just that. It did so in order to stop those industries (and the associated taxes revenue) from going somewhere else. It is about ensuring a market entry position that the eastern european nations couldnt match.


And then it brought those eastern european nations into the tent and exploited their low wage low rights economies by facilitating production switches from more developed EU economies, what are you arguing here, everything you cite is the EU looking after the interests of EU capital


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

There you go.


Updated: The British steel industry since the 1970s - Office for National Statistics


*Employment in the steel industry around a tenth of the early 1970s level*
*Employment in the steel industry, Great Britain, 1971 to 2014*


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> And then it brought those eastern european nations into the tent and exploited their low wage low rights economies by facilitating production switches from more developed EU economies, what are you arguing here, everything you cite is the EU looking after the interests of EU capital


of course the EU looks after capital, of course that's what it's there for. But it works in the interests of the major capitals within it and allows support for the industries they want to retain, notably Germany and France. The UK too was fairly protected, as a major funder. Most of Eastern Europe is still completely fucked too, precious few productin switches to Bulgaria and Romania.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There you go.
> 
> 
> Updated: The British steel industry since the 1970s - Office for National Statistics
> ...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> of course the EU looks after capital, of course that's what it's there for. But it works in the interests of the major capitals within it and allows support for the industries they want to retain, notably Germany and France. The UK too was fairly protected, as a major funder. Most of Eastern Europe is still completely fucked too, precious few productin switches to Bulgaria and Romania.



Right, so no deindustrialisation in germany or france then, no wholesale increase in unemployment levels across EU as whole, no production switches to poland or hungary where wages are lower. This all started when I queried your claim that the EU has nothing to do with deindustrialisation. How can it not


----------



## Wilf (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> So, you're talking about framing everything as bring about Brexit?  Because Labour have been talking, explicitly and overtly, about being on the side of those communities, _whatever _the result of Brexit. They've been saying they'll invest in those communities, they'll give money for hospitals, social care, flood defences, etc etc, whatever the outcome. The gains for those communities from Brexit are quite marginal, and the priorities for them can be carried out whether we are a member of the trading bloc or not.


No I don't think it's about framing everything about Brexit, and if things were right in terms of labour having a good relationship with working class communiites they wouldn't be where they are on brexit. And if labour have been saying all those things overtly and explicitly, why is it that nobody believes them or even cares what they think anymore?


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Right, so no deindustrialisation in germany or france then, no wholesale increase in unemployment levels across EU as whole, no production switches to poland or hungary where wages are lower. This all started when I queried your claim that the EU has nothing to do with deindustrialisation. How can it not


I said the EU had next to nothing to do with deindustrialisation_ in this country_. The UK led the field there, well ahead of the EU. There was almost no industry (within the meaning of deindustrialisation) left to move! Even now, at least as many factories are being moved to Singapore etc as to Poland and Hungary (two of the three or four countries which are getting such transfers.)

To get back to my original point - most of the UK's economic and social problems have been caused by UK government decisions, that they'd have made whatever trading bloc they did or did not belong to, and we shouldn't rewrite history to blame the EU or EEC for things done by our governments.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> I said the EU had next to nothing to do with deindustrialisation_ in this country_. The UK led the field there, well ahead of the EU. There was almost no industry (within the meaning of deindustrialisation) left to move! Even now, at least as many factories are being moved to Singapore etc as to Poland and Hungary (two of the three or four countries which are getting such transfers.)
> 
> To get back to my original point - most of the UK's economic and social problems have been caused by UK government decisions, that they'd have made whatever trading bloc they did or did not belong to, and we shouldn't rewrite history to blame the EU or EEC for things done by our governments.




This is all over the shop. Deindustrialisation is ultimately driven by capital and company directors searching out cheaper labour, union free zones and higher profit. Both the UK government and the EU have actively facilitated this process for the last 40 years. Your failure to understand that this is the case, and to paint the EU, the single market and the prioritisation of the free flow of capital as largely a bystander is frankly bizarre.

We’ve got a chance to elect a government offering a different approach next month. There is no democratic opportunity to do the same with the EU single market.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> No I don't think it's about framing everything about Brexit, and if things were right in terms of labour having a good relationship with working class communiites they wouldn't be where they are on brexit. And if labour have been saying all those things overtly and explicitly, why is it that nobody believes them or even cares what they think anymore?


well, lets see how many people believe and support them on december 12th. 

There are clearly communities who were absolutely fucked under Thatcher and Blair where labours base was all but destroyed, where the membership disappeared and unions often did the same. It is fucking hard to win those communities back without just offering some misty eyed vision of the past. Labour being fully gung ho for Brexit wouldn't change that.


----------



## gosub (Nov 12, 2019)

Other side of the world but seems pertinent


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is all over the shop. Deindustrialisation is ultimately driven by capital and company directors searching out cheaper labour, union free zones and higher profit. Both the UK government and the EU have actively facilitated this process for the last 40 years. Your failure to understand that this is the case and to paint the EU, the single market and the prioritisation of the free flow of capital is frankly bizarre.
> 
> We’ve got a chance to elect a government offering a different approach next month. There is no democratic opportunity to do the same with the EU single market.


to paint the Eu etc etc as what??? I fully understand both have facilitated the process, and have said so repeatedly.  My point is about _causation. _

Leaving the EU doesn't give that much more room for manoeuvre than remaining in does, in terms of economic policy. WTO rules are almost as restrictive and aren't at all keen on the capital controls you seem to be demanding. There is a little more room, which is why I support leaving, but it really is quite small indeed.  A properly socialist economic plan would mean fucking both off, and if we're going to fuck them both off, it doesn't really matter if we're in the EU or out of it when we do so.


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2019)

Interesting thread here with some details of ructions in Canterbury Lib Dems over the candidate (the editor of The New European) standing down and the national party insisting on standing someone there anyway...


----------



## Libertad (Nov 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I think we've already been over this...but...I've actually bothered to look it up now.(noticing today how quickly it got dark wot prompted it)
> 
> So, perhaps surprisingly (? it not being the Solstice - shortest day) Johnson seems to have chosen a date for the General Election which falls within the 5 day period of earliest sunsets (15:51pm). Although, because of the sunrise differences 12/12/19 has, in total 5 minutes more light than the days around the Solstice.
> 
> ...



Have you considered what effect the full moon on the 12th may have on voting choices?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Interesting thread here with some details of ructions in Canterbury Lib Dems over the candidate (the editor of The New European) standing down and the national party insisting on standing someone there anyway...



BP = another variable this time, though.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Have you considered what effect the full moon on the 12th may have on voting choices?


More loons.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Have you considered what effect the full moon on the 12th may have on voting choices?


The moon is in opposition to Jupiter on the 12th, which could indicate trouble towards law authorities.

Which sounds like spunking cock for the win.


----------



## belboid (Nov 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> Interesting thread here with some details of ructions in Canterbury Lib Dems over the candidate (the editor of The New European) standing down and the national party insisting on standing someone there anyway...



the Best for Britain MRP thingy has figures of 31 tory, 25 labour and 21 libs, so I can imagine that poor deluded Jo thinks they could have a change there.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 12, 2019)

brogdale said:


> More loons.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> View attachment 189807


That looks like something from a musical onstage. Is that St Bob centre?


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Excellent nerding. I've actually been wondering if a December election will mean fewer older voters turning out. Have we done that yet?



The one thing a December election will do is make it harder for people to go canvassing or leafleting in the evening, darkness/cold may make this unsafe or unappealing. Given Labour has a lot more boots on the ground than the tories then any advantage from this will be reduced.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Let’s not beat around the bush, if Labour get into power it’s highly unlikely Brexit will happen.



I’m not so certain, if they hold a ‘People’s Vote’ it’ll be something that opponents will rally against strongly, anti-labour types will see it as a means to give them a kicking, goaded on by a hostile press. Would almost certainly mean the most Brexity option was chosen. Kind of like how the Lib Dems lost the AV referendum because people wanted to punish them for their betrayal going in with the tories, not that people were happy with the current voting system.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> the Best for Britain MRP thingy has figures of 31 tory, 25 labour and 21 libs, so I can imagine that poor deluded Jo thinks they could have a change there.


Either Swinson looks weak and not in control of events or she looks psychopathically tribal.
Good stuff.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 13, 2019)

To think we could be shortly rid of the self-serving Tory cunts. Labour won't do it as it stands; hearts and minds have to be won. Whatever it takes. Therefore it follows it can be done. Deal with the SNP and they won't be far off.

They do need to preach beyond the choir though. There is no other way to win. How would that look? : Offer people a vision of the future that includes them. Tell the truth.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 13, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Offer people a vision of the future that includes them. Tell the truth.


Think we may be in an era where you have to lie to be believed.


----------



## chilango (Nov 13, 2019)

The risible "Remain Alliance" continues to self-destruct...

More random Greens announcing their resignations on Twitter and the Express has Caroline Lucas as saying:


> .
> “The position of revoke, at that point I just felt that this is taking party interest above national interest to such an unforgivable degree.
> 
> “To be honest, if you wanted to send a message to 17.4 million people that you don’t give a f*** what they have just said, why don’t you just say so?”


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 13, 2019)

Humberto said:


> hearts and minds have to be won. Whatever it takes. Therefore it follows it can be done.


_This_ is “begging the question”.  Just repeating the first bit in different words. And putting something like “therefore” in between. _It was frosty because of the iciness_. It doesn’t tell us how; it begs the question. 

/flails away at losing battle


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Think we may be in an era where you have to lie to be believed.


Put Johnson on his deathbed and let's see if he can be believed


----------



## strung out (Nov 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Put Johnson on his deathbed and let's see if he can be believed


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

belboid said:


> No, I'm being patronising.
> 
> And it is basically the same position on Brexit this time around - negotiate a better version still based around the six tests. They've just added the public vote now.



You might think you're being patronising but you _sound _like you think the six tests and this godawful second referendum is somehow the articulation of the social democratic form of Brexit Wilf was referring to. Or that is a better position than they had in 2017. Which, you can't be, because we all recognise the six tests were bloody stupid and in no way an articulation of a vision on Brexit. And we all recognise the second ref thing has been and is disastrous. Right? 




belboid said:


> But most of those concerns weren't really anything to do with our relationship with the EU - except for around immigration. The decades of under-investment and deindustrialisation that fucked those communities and led to the breakdown in community weren't caused by the EU. They are being addressed by the rest of Labour policy, policy that would (and could) be implemented whether in the EU or not.



Nearly 1300 pages in and you've learnt nothing. You're no better than teuchter, in fact you're worse. Arrogantly vomiting up nonsense. Once a swappy, always a swappy.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

belboid said:


> the full brexit lot and paul mason



What do they matter? Clutching at straws.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

killer b said:


> Very easy for us to say. It's almost impossible to really have a clear view of it though, so I won't.



How pious of you!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

belboid said:


> So, you're talking about framing everything as bring about Brexit?  Because Labour have been talking, explicitly and overtly, about being on the side of those communities, _whatever _the result of Brexit. They've been saying they'll invest in those communities, they'll give money for hospitals, social care, flood defences, etc etc, whatever the outcome. The gains for those communities from Brexit are quite marginal, and the priorities for them can be carried out whether we are a member of the trading bloc or not.



Marginal gains. Fucking hell.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

belboid said:


> Labour being fully gung ho for Brexit wouldn't change that.



Nobody argued it would.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 13, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> _This_ is “begging the question”.  Just repeating the first bit in different words. And putting something like “therefore” in between. _It was frosty because of the iciness_. It doesn’t tell us how; it begs the question.
> 
> /flails away at losing battle



Agree.


----------



## elbows (Nov 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Tories have selected elphicke's wife for dover. I know she isn't the one accused of sexual assault but ffs.



A pattern forms....

Sexting politician's wife chosen as Tory candidate



> The wife of a former Conservative MP, who sent sexual messages to two female constituents, has been selected as the candidate for his seat.
> 
> Andrew Griffiths, 49, announced he was standing down from frontline politics, would not seek his party's nomination, and was backing Kate Griffiths.
> 
> She was selected as the Tory candidate for Burton and Uttoxeter on Thursday.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 13, 2019)

elbows said:


> A pattern forms....
> 
> Sexting politician's wife chosen as Tory candidate


#ToryWives...so loyal.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> #ToryWives...so loyal.



Or at least keen to keep it in the family.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Or at least keen to keep it in the family.


Let's face it; collectively they're attracted to venal psychopaths...so...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2019)

strung out said:


> View attachment 189827


----------



## strung out (Nov 13, 2019)




----------



## Badgers (Nov 13, 2019)

Surprisingly strong support for rail nationalisation from YouGov survey today


----------



## ska invita (Nov 13, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Surprisingly strong support for rail nationalisation from YouGov survey today
> 
> View attachment 189849


I remember support for being in the 70s if not 80s not long ago... Suggests support has fallen? Or yougov anomaly, or other stat 'truths'


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Marginal gains. Fucking hell.



It’s a Parliamentary election to run the state. I’d bite your arm off for some marginal gains.


----------



## binka (Nov 13, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Surprisingly strong support for rail nationalisation from YouGov survey today
> 
> View attachment 189849


I tried googling what % of the country regularly takes the train. I found a yougov page from 2018 
Four in ten Brits haven’t set foot on a train in the last 12 months | YouGov 
It says 39% of people haven't taken a train in 12 months. Coincidentally on your graphic 38% of people oppose renationalisation or don't know. 

I regularly take the train around greater Manchester and it would be hard to explain to a non train user how utterly shit the service is.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 13, 2019)

Last time round Labour had activists flyering at railway stations, think it’s a good tactic. Should use the phrase ‘Take back control’ too just for the lols.


----------



## belboid (Nov 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What do they matter? Clutching at straws.


Seriously? Appearing regularly on the media, having the ear of various labour party leading figures.  They matter a tad more than as couple of feckers arguing on the internet, or than a small spilt from the Socialist Party.

The rest of your pots are high on indignation but low on anything specific. Generic criticisms of the EU don't really count for much, certainly not compared to actual investments are promising stay or leave.


----------



## BoxRoom (Nov 13, 2019)

Has anyone else received this bollocks email from what looks like a particularly patronising children's telly host?
https://view.e.bbcmail.co.uk/?qs=29...d5dc216c2832d9c6c4844ebda18437693389561d1f485
  
etc...


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 13, 2019)

binka said:


> I tried googling what % of the country regularly takes the train. I found a yougov page from 2018
> Four in ten Brits haven’t set foot on a train in the last 12 months | YouGov
> It says 39% of people haven't taken a train in 12 months. Coincidentally on your graphic 38% of people oppose renationalisation or don't know.
> 
> I regularly take the train around greater Manchester and it would be hard to explain to a non train user how utterly shit the service is.



Agreed.  You'd really need to see some decent polling for people who actually use trains.  Our new franchise (South West Railway) are taking the Southern approach in seeing the running of trains as a terrible interference in their day to day business of trying to rinse as much money as possible.  Only a year or so back a cancellation was a rare thing now its the norm and that's not to mention all the delays.  To top it all they've so fucked over their employees that the union has called a virtually month long strike in December.

Absolutely dismal service.


----------



## belboid (Nov 13, 2019)

It is slightly pleasing that facebooks demographic targeting is so bad it is currently promoting (paid) content from _Parent's Choice_ to me. Defending the right to public schooling is obviously a key issue for everyone I know.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 13, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Surprisingly strong support for rail nationalisation from YouGov survey today
> 
> View attachment 189849



Would be more interesting to see what the support would be for better funding, which would have a vastly greater effect on the quality of rail services than nationalisation would.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 13, 2019)

Should throw in strict price tariffs on Upper Crust and those cornish pasty shops alongside the renationalisation, would be in the high 90%s among regular train users then


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 13, 2019)

This surprises me, considering if Labour does do well, resulting in a hung parliament, they are going to need SNP support to govern.



> A Labour government would not back a second Scottish independence vote during its "first term" in power, leader Jeremy Corbyn has said.
> 
> Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon wants to hold a new referendum in 2020.
> 
> ...



Corbyn: No indyref2 in 'first term' under Labour


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Would be more interesting to see what the support would be for better funding, which would have a vastly greater effect on the quality of rail services than nationalisation would.



And all that extra money defiantly all wouldn't end up in the pockets of rich people, no way.  Would never happen.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> This surprises me, considering if Labour does do well, resulting in a hung parliament, they are going to need SNP support to govern.
> 
> 
> 
> Corbyn: No indyref2 in 'first term' under Labour



Tricky one for the SNP as well. Their main justification for another ref is brexit. But if Labour promise a new deal and a referendum on the new deal, they can't demand a new indyref on this justification until the brexit ref result has come in, and if that result is 'remain', that justification is blown away.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

belboid said:


> Seriously? Appearing regularly on the media, having the ear of various labour party leading figures.  They matter a tad more than as couple of feckers arguing on the internet, or than a small spilt from the Socialist Party.
> 
> The rest of your pots are high on indignation but low on anything specific. Generic criticisms of the EU don't really count for much, certainly not compared to actual investments are promising stay or leave.



It's not about leave and remain, it's about your position and phrasing - namely "Yes people voted to leave but it won't really benefit them, what they need to understand is that we're on their side."


----------



## teuchter (Nov 13, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> And all that extra money defiantly all wouldn't end up in the pockets of rich people, no way.  Would never happen.


No. But it's probably worth renationalising, if only to remove this tedium from the discussion, which just ends up as a way of distracting from and avoiding the real issue.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> This surprises me, considering if Labour does do well, resulting in a hung parliament, they are going to need SNP support to govern.
> 
> 
> 
> Corbyn: No indyref2 in 'first term' under Labour



It would be pretty difficult for the SNP to refuse to work with Labour at all and bring about a Tory govt. Confidence and supply would still happen.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> No. But it's probably worth renationalising, if only to remove this tedium from the discussion, which just ends up as a way of distracting from and avoiding the real issue.



Great lets renationalise.  Now, what other tedium can be removed?  Starting with this site?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 13, 2019)

This is, apparently, real...FFS


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is, apparently, real...FFS
> 
> View attachment 189874



Yeah that's bound to work.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah that's bound to work.



To be fair it might convince like 3 or 4 people he is the Labour candidate.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Nov 13, 2019)

Mike _Gapes?_


----------



## maomao (Nov 13, 2019)

He wants his 22 grand and he has to have some sort of poster.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 13, 2019)

.


----------



## chilango (Nov 13, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> To be fair it might convince like 3 or 4 people he is the Labour candidate.



Who then tick the Labour box on the ballot cos they don't recognize the TIG logo.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is, apparently, real...FFS
> 
> View attachment 189874


Porn name?


----------



## rekil (Nov 13, 2019)

Galloway interviewed Chris Williamson on one of his russian state shows and they didn't mention jews or israel or palestinians once in the whole 25 minutes which must be some sort of record. Just a load of old shit with Williamson claiming that he got hunted and deselected because of integrity initiative and for being too pro-Corbyn.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> Who then tick the Labour box on the ballot cos they don't recognize the TIG logo.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is, apparently, real...FFS
> 
> View attachment 189874


Isn't that some sort of breach of electoral rules? I'd have thought if you can't have party names that sound vaguely similar then this would extend to aldi puffin bar style stuff


----------



## Wilf (Nov 13, 2019)

copliker said:


> Galloway interviewed Chris Williamson on one of his russian state shows and they didn't mention jews or israel or palestinians once in the whole 25 minutes which must be some sort of record. Just a load of old shit with Williamson claiming that he got hunted and deselected because of integrity initiative and for being too pro-Corbyn.


Quite difficult for the camera person, with all those elephants in the room.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Isn't that some sort of breach of electoral rules? I'd have thought if you can't have party names that sound vaguely similar then this would extend to aldi puffin bar style stuff


He will get his 22 grand, minus certain expenses for rule breaches.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 13, 2019)

Gapes really is a cunt.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Gapes really is a cunt.



Miiiiiiiiiwk


----------



## belboid (Nov 13, 2019)

Oh joy. The landlady of my local us standing as an anti-trans candidate in Hallam. Time to find a new local.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 13, 2019)

belboid said:


> Oh joy. The landlady of my local us standing as an anti-trans candidate in Hallam. Time to find a new local.



Which pub?


----------



## belboid (Nov 13, 2019)

Harlequin

'I'm Terrified I'll Win' – Inside the Most Dramatic MP Race in Britain


----------



## Cid (Nov 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Isn't that some sort of breach of electoral rules? I'd have thought if you can't have party names that sound vaguely similar then this would extend to aldi puffin bar style stuff



Party colours/other aspects of design are also registered with the electoral commission iirc...


----------



## Cid (Nov 14, 2019)

belboid said:


> Harlequin



Go to Shakespeares instead.

I kind of liked the harlequin (decent food and beer), but it is kind of known as filth and home office hangout.


----------



## belboid (Nov 14, 2019)

Cid said:


> Go to Shakespeares instead.
> 
> I kind of liked the harlequin (decent food and beer), but it is kind of known as filth and home office hangout.


Their pub quiz is on a Monday though! Lousy night. Thankfully the coppers have generally gone by the evening (in the harlequin) though the clientele is still rather tedious.  Nice beer though.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 14, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Isn't that some sort of breach of electoral rules? I'd have thought if you can't have party names that sound vaguely similar then this would extend to aldi puffin bar style stuff



Yeah, after the "Literal Democrat" incident of 1994.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 14, 2019)

They'll say something too cunty to row back from, now that the coverage is supposed to be equal. They won't get away with it to the same extent. Faith in the people is important. The hardened Tories aren't that many, and the workers outnumber the rich elite.

People can hear more or less, despite all the media filth and manipulation, who is more honest and prepared to act in their interests. It'll go to the wire no doubt.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 14, 2019)

I’d totally forgotten how utterly awful that CUK logo is.  (Also, the name CUK.). It just looks like a printing error.  It represents nothing but blandness and a lack of vision.


----------



## andysays (Nov 14, 2019)

kabbes said:


> I’d totally forgotten how utterly awful that CUK logo is.  (Also, the name CUK.). It just looks like a printing error.  It represents nothing but blandness and a lack of vision.


Yep, perfect choice I'd say.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

> The Conservatives have offered an electoral pact to Nigel Farage that would mean the Brexit Party targeting just 40 key seats, The Telegraph can disclose.
> 
> Boris Johnson was prepared to put up “paper candidates” in the Labour-held constituencies, meaning the Tories would carry out only minimal campaigning in order to give an advantage to Brexit Party rivals.
> 
> ...



It wouldn't surprise me if this is true, but I can't see the Tories standing down candidates, it could put off more moderate Tories voters in the south, and leave them with egg on their faces.

But, I do wonder if Farage will blink at the last moment, realising that's the best deal he'll get from his hard-line negotiating position, he's under a lot of pressure to do so.  Although I wouldn't put money on it, I also wouldn't be surprised if he did.


----------



## chilango (Nov 14, 2019)

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Farage doing something to grab the headlines this evening. No idea what though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2019)

astonishing stuff here


Sketch: Boris Johnson can’t even be trusted to insult Jeremy Corbyn properly
do you want as prime minister a man who can't even call another politician a wanker, who bottles it?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2019)

Hospitals 'imploding' as waits at worst-ever level

Doubt this will swing many/any Tory voters but a pretty damning statistic to ignore


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 14, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Hospitals 'imploding' as waits at worst-ever level
> 
> Doubt this will swing many/any Tory voters but a pretty damning statistic to ignore



Probably the only positive for Labour about a December election is all the noise about another winter NHS crisis, likely to get louder as we go.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

So, Farage is pushing ahead with 300 candidates in Labour areas, but I wonder how many could decide to stand down over the next few hours, like this guy in Hove.



> A BREXIT Party election candidate has pulled out of a heated race and endorsed the Conservatives.
> 
> Andy Wood, who ran for Nigel Farage's party in Hove, announced today he would not compete in the December General Election.
> 
> ...


----------



## killer b (Nov 14, 2019)

lol


----------



## steeplejack (Nov 14, 2019)

John Curtice says chances of Lab majority “as close to zero as it’s possible to be”. Citrs Corbyn’s general unpopularity.

Only issue is whether parliament will be hung or Johnson has a majority.

madness


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> lol




Is the High Street doomed


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 14, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, Farage is pushing ahead with 300 candidates in Labour areas, but I wonder how many could decide to stand down over the next few hours, like this guy in Hove.


Considering how many of them he has stabbed in the back, he can hardly complain if some of them return the favour can he?


----------



## andysays (Nov 14, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> John Curtice says chances of Lab majority “as close to zero as it’s possible to be”. Citrs Corbyn’s general unpopularity.
> 
> Only issue is whether parliament will be hung or Johnson has a majority.
> 
> madness


No option for Johnson being hung?


----------



## Ted Striker (Nov 14, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is, apparently, real...FFS
> 
> View attachment 189874



Wtf...Top right "oh god I'm no good with computers..." Is that on the actual poster?!


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 14, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Wtf...Top right "oh god I'm no good with computers..." Is that on the actual poster?!


No


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2019)

andysays said:


> No option for Johnson being hung?


defenestration is the preferred option, pollsters report





boris johnson being thrown out of a westminster window - an artist's impression


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2019)




----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> lol



Similar:


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 14, 2019)

The media: "Corbyn is historically unpopular with the general public, he is a liability in this election"

Also the media: "Johnson can't go anywhere without everyone telling him how he is a useless cunt, at length, with diagrams"


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


>


----------



## killer b (Nov 14, 2019)

Despite reports from bullshitters to the contrary, nominations have just closed and Johnson is standing in Uxbridge


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

killer b said:


> Despite reports from bullshitters to the contrary, nominations have just closed and Johnson is standing in Uxbridge



I so hope he loses. 

I know it's unlikely, but, well, if you don't have a dream, how you gonna make a dream come true?


----------



## Argonia (Nov 14, 2019)

De Pfeffel losing his seat would be the funniest thing I have ever seen.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

Farage is whinging about the Tories targeting his candidates with endless phone calls & e-mails putting pressure on them to stand down, and even offering them jobs.

Nigel Farage claims Tories 'offering jobs' to candidates if they stand down

This was always going to be a dirty election, what did he expect?

ETA - He's frothing at the mouth on Sky News, the twat.


----------



## belboid (Nov 14, 2019)

Any interesting candidatures out yet?  We've got a UKIP and a Brexit Party, but otherwise Sheffield is very dull. Socialist Equality Party candidate in central. And just the one independent - ohh, 2 i mean


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

belboid said:


> Any interesting candidatures out yet?  We've got a UKIP and a Brexit Party, but otherwise Sheffield is very dull. Socialist Equality Party candidate in central. And just the one independent.



Just the usual - Tory, LibDem, Labour & Green - plus for some reason David Aherne, who I guess is now a former coordinator of the Worthing Green Party, standing as an independent for some reason.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 14, 2019)

The LibDem candidate in Wrexham is called Tim Sly


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> The LibDem candidate in Wrexham is called Tim Sly



And, the Tory candidate is Tim Nice, but dim?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 14, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Just the usual - Tory, LibDem, Labour & Green - plus for some reason David Aherne, who I guess is now a former coordinator of the Worthing Green Party, standing as an independent for some reason.



Worthing needs to up it's game; what happened to the days when it had two fascist candidates whose supporters came to blows at the count?

Cheers - Louis (one time long term Worthing resident) MacNeice


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Worthing needs to up it's game; what happened to the days when it had two fascist candidates whose supporters came to blows at the count?
> 
> Cheers - Louis (one time long term Worthing resident) MacNeice



Must have been before my time here.


----------



## cantsin (Nov 14, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Worthing needs to up it's game; what happened to the days when it had two fascist candidates whose supporters came to blows at the count?
> 
> Cheers - Louis (one time long term Worthing resident) MacNeice



that sounds epic - can you remember which fash orgs it was ?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 14, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Must have been before my time here.



1983 - NF v BNP. Between them they got 0.7%.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 14, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> 1983 - NF v BNP. Between them they got 0.7%.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice





Yeah, long before I moved here.

The place has seriously changed, no sign of fascists here now, we had the first Labour councillor elected 3 or 4 years ago, in 41 years, we now have 10 on the borough council.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 14, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yeah, long before I moved here.
> 
> The place has seriously changed, no sign of fascists here now, we had the first Labour councillor elected 3 or 4 years ago, in 41 years, we now have 10 on the borough council.




I know. I bumped into Jim Dean on line recently and congratulated him on the transformation. When I was there the closest we got to a Labour councillor was Jim in the wake of the poll tax, and we were still light by about 100 votes in Seldon ward...happy days. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 14, 2019)

belboid said:


> Any interesting candidatures out yet?  We've got a UKIP and a Brexit Party, but otherwise Sheffield is very dull. Socialist Equality Party candidate in central. And just the one independent - ohh, 2 i mean



Here’s some loon:

'Anti-Brexit cat' to stand in General Election in bid to disrupt Tory support


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 14, 2019)

Entertaining story tbf


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 15, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Here’s some loon:
> 
> 'Anti-Brexit cat' to stand in General Election in bid to disrupt Tory support



hmm

while i firmly support increased species diversity in politics, i'm not convinced i'd vote for a candidate solely on that basis...


----------



## belboid (Nov 15, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Here’s some loon:
> 
> 'Anti-Brexit cat' to stand in General Election in bid to disrupt Tory support


Nice.  On the other side there's the candidate who wouldn't allow the Brexit Party standing down to get in his way

General Election 2019: Chorley candidate changes his name by deed poll to include the word 'Brexit'


----------



## Humberto (Nov 15, 2019)

Johnson may as well keep on lying. He's allowed to and Labour aren't.  The thing is, not that you can trust him anyway, what does he offer? A warm fuzzy re-assurance (all a big Bullingdon con) vs honesty and concrete practical help and solutions. Everyone must see what they are doing to the country and its institutions, more of the same is just plain daft.

I think Corbyn could probably be a bit more combative in terms of making it personal. He has clearly called Johnson the liar that he is, to his credit. But Johnson is a fairly wide target for this stuff. There is not much to laugh about when it comes down to it so i don't know. But maybe for example, 'Boris lies so much; he even believes he is a great leader up there with Churchill when he can't even brave Yorkshire or Glastonbury without being driven out and howled down', and so on. That kind of line. Open goals aplenty I reckon for this vain con artist


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 15, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2019)

belboid said:


> Nice.  On the other side there's the candidate who wouldn't allow the Brexit Party standing down to get in his way
> 
> General Election 2019: Chorley candidate changes his name by deed poll to include the word 'Brexit'


He bears an unusual resemblance to ron swanson


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

Fez909 said:


>



Excellent policy. Will be costly and no doubt criticised but an excellent investment for the country, people and business.

Would prefer to pay for this than subsidise poor private sector service and shareholders.

Britons paying £2.2bn each year to compensate for poor home Wi-Fi


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

The broadband policy is an absolute banger. I love how much all the awful people are shitting themselves over it.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 15, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Excellent policy. Will be costly and no doubt criticised but an excellent investment for the country, people and business.
> 
> Would prefer to pay for this than subsidise poor private sector service and shareholders.
> 
> Britons paying £2.2bn each year to compensate for poor home Wi-Fi


Small print in the policy...to be done by 2030.


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

It's a substantial infrastructure project, 10 years for delivery doesn't sound bad. How long do you think digging up all the roads in the country should take?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Small print in the policy...to be done by 2030.


Pretty reasonable time frame for a national project.


killer b said:


> It's a substantial infrastructure project, 10 years for delivery doesn't sound bad. How long do you think digging up all the roads in the country should take?


Three weeks?


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 15, 2019)

It needs labour to be in power for a decade to fulfil the promise.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 15, 2019)

Obviously the openreach network should be renationalised. All the substantial infrastructure work & investment was back when it was publicly owned, it's our fucking network, all post privatisation infrastructure investment has been patchy as fuck and commercially driven. Which is why almost every household still gets its fixed line services down a copper cable from a street cabinet and why people living in rural underpopulated places get half a MBPS if they are lucky.

See also the railway network.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> It needs labour to be in power for a decade to fulfil the promise.


One of the problems with boom and bust politics eh?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Obviously the openreach network should be renationalised. All the substantial infrastructure work & investment was back when it was publicly owned, it's our fucking network, all post privatisation infrastructure investment has been patchy as fuck and commercially driven. Which is why almost every household still gets its fixed line services down a copper cable from a street cabinet and why people living in rural underpopulated places get half a MBPS if they are lucky.
> 
> See also the railway network.


Where I live the only option for fibre optic broadband is Virgin. The service is mostly okay but patchy (like most) but Virgin like in contract price rises as much as they don't like paying tax.

I work from home and have a smart telly (fwp) so need a decent connection and am stuck with a single supplier.


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> It needs labour to be in power for a decade to fulfil the promise.


It doesn't though does it - it's work that needs doing either way, and there is zero chance of any party getting in in 2025 with half the work done and cancelling the rest.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 15, 2019)

I love the idea of free ultra-fast fibre to the home broadband, and can see the logic in a nationalised network, but I am struggling with the network running cost, which Labour puts at £230m pa, yet the Openreach wages alone are £800-850m pa. 

That was put to John McDonald just now on Sky News, he was very good at not answering the question, he waffled on about the retail opportunities of renting the infrastructure to other providers. But, if we all have free ultra-fast broadband, why would anyone pay for the same from another provider.


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

The idea that political parties should only promise policies that can be delivered in a 5-year timeframe is moronic tbh.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

There is also the digital divide to address.

People out of work or on long term benefits need to get on line. Health services, benefits and a lot of government services are online.

Luckily there are libraries with free Internet access all over the.... Oh hang on.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I love the idea of free ultra-fast fibre to the home broadband, and can see the logic in a nationalised network, but I am struggling with the network running cost, which Labour puts at £230m pa, yet the Openreach wages alone are £800-850m pa.
> 
> That was put to John McDonald just now on Sky News, he was very good at not answering the question, he waffled on about the retail opportunities of renting the infrastructure to other providers. But, if we all have free ultra-fast broadband, why would anyone pay for the same from another provider.


Imagine a national health service in the USA? People would go bankrupt  oh hang on


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 15, 2019)

Fez909 said:


>



Isn't this a plot point in one of Ken Macleod's books?


----------



## Supine (Nov 15, 2019)

Maybe I’m the only one but I’m not entirely sure about the government owning ALL personal and commercial internet traffic. In the wrong hands that could be a bad thing.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

Supine said:


> Maybe I’m the only one but I’m not entirely sure about the government owning ALL personal and commercial internet traffic. In the wrong hands that could be a bad thing.


Have you not read any of the Snowden stuff?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

Supine said:


> Maybe I’m the only one but I’m not entirely sure about the government owning ALL personal and commercial internet traffic. In the wrong hands that could be a bad thing.


IMO the 'wrong hands' are a lot of the tech companies...


----------



## Flavour (Nov 15, 2019)

Supine said:


> Maybe I’m the only one but I’m not entirely sure about the government owning ALL personal and commercial internet traffic. In the wrong hands that could be a bad thing.



better off being owned by a handful of san francisco oligarchs, you're totally right


----------



## Supine (Nov 15, 2019)

Flavour said:


> better off being owned by a handful of san francisco oligarchs, you're totally right



That bit wouldn't be changing though. It's the BT bit that is changing. 

Not that it makes much difference to my life. I'm rather boring so nothing for the government to spy on me


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 15, 2019)

Supine said:


> Maybe I’m the only one but I’m not entirely sure about the government owning ALL personal and commercial internet traffic. In the wrong hands that could be a bad thing.


It wouldn't it would simply own the infrastructure over which that traffic passed 
It would have no idea what was in that traffic 
Bit like the fact that the state provides the roads but has no idea what is in the back of each van or the boot of each car.
There is a sound argument that the state provides infrastructure such as power, networking etc whilst allowing private services to flourish on top.
I don't think Farmer John grasps the complexity or cost of what he is suggesting but the basic idea has merit


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

Supine said:


> That bit wouldn't be changing though. It's the BT bit that is changing.
> 
> Not that it makes much difference to my life. I'm rather boring so nothing for the government to spy on me


Boring or not; doesn't matter...they snaffle the lot.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> It wouldn't it would simply own the infrastructure over which that traffic passed
> It would have no idea what was in that traffic
> Bit like the fact that the state provides the roads but has no idea what is in the back of each van or the boot of each car.
> There is a sound argument that the state provides infrastructure such as power, networking etc whilst allowing private services to flourish on top.
> I don't think Farmer John grasps the complexity or cost of what he is suggesting but the basic idea has merit


Regarding cost, the only thing you really need to understand is that a nationalised network would be cheaper to build and to run, and it would necessarily be less complex than an arrangement involving a variety of private companies - see also railways.

Add to that the increasing social exclusion of people without access to broadband, which provides a compelling argument for total coverage based on social justice.

It will be interesting to see how the tories try to argue against this. I suspect that that is where you will see the real failure to grasp the complexity and cost issues.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 15, 2019)




----------



## MickiQ (Nov 15, 2019)

I don't think they will to any great degree, To win this election the Tories need to keep the conversation centred around the dreaded B word where they are strong and Labour is pitifully weak.
To have a chance Labour need to expand the conversation to include a discussion of the fundamental unfairness that underpins so much of modern Britain and where they can claim the high ground.
I suspect that this is an idea that is potentially popular, I can't imagine anyone I know getting outraged over whether BT investors  are getting a return on their money.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 15, 2019)

Ultimately the state is the only option for providing mass large scale infrastructure/networks which is why it was the state which built the fixed line network and the state that built the railway network and the state which built social housing. 

Only have to look at the disparity in provision/service of these since privatisation, with the exception of housing based on population density, to see why private enterprise can't deliver. Look at financial services, probably the most militant of any sector in its opposition to public involvement, which was happy to about turn and welcome state intervention when it needed bailing out - something only the state could do (irrespective of whether it should have)


----------



## xenon (Nov 15, 2019)

Not sure of details but... If the idea is to have the infrastructure built, improved, maintained, i.e. Open Reach comes back into public ownership. Yep. If it's to also have one publically owned ISP serving everyone, no to that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ultimately the state is the only option for providing mass large scale infrastructure/networks which is why it was the state which built the fixed line network and the state that built the railway network and the state which built social housing.
> 
> Only have to look at the disparity in provision/service of these since privatisation, with the exception of housing based on population density, to see why private enterprise can't deliver. Look at financial services, probably the most militant of any sector in its opposition to public involvement, which was happy to about turn and welcome state intervention when it needed bailing out - something only the state could do (irrespective of whether it should have)


Even housing isn't an exception. Not enough housing is being built - and what is being built is of the wrong kind - to meet the real need. A situation of permanent shortage is far more profitable than one of decent homes for all.


----------



## Poot (Nov 15, 2019)

My only fear is that, whilst water and sewerage undertakers have statutory powers to lay pipes, other utility companies rely on wayleaves and easements to lay assets where it's not possible to put them in the road. So the broadband might be a good way of lining the pockets of big landowners if it isn't carefully considered. Still a good policy, mind. Just needs fine tuning.


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

What percentage of the Daily Mail comments are pisstakes do you think?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

Poot said:


> My only fear is that, whilst water and sewerage undertakers have statutory powers to lay pipes, other utility companies rely on wayleaves and easements to lay assets where it's not possible to put them in the road. So the broadband might be a good way of lining the pockets of big landowners if it isn't carefully considered. Still a good policy, mind. Just needs fine tuning.


Good point ^ 

I guess most policies need fine tuning but this one has far reaching benefits. Would be nice to have schools, hospitals and such supplied alongside the public and businesses. 

The UK is well behind on this!


----------



## treelover (Nov 15, 2019)

I think it is a great policy in many ways, shades of Harry Perkins blindsiding the Tories in A Very British Coup, just not sure about the free bit, it could be a revenue earner to pay say for social care.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> I think it is a great policy in many ways, shades of Harry Perkins blindsiding the Tories in a very british coup, just not sure about the free bit, it could be a revenue earner to pay say for social care.


If you're not going to make it free, you certainly shouldn't be aiming to make it _for profit_. That would just be the equivalent of a massively regressive tax.

Also, if you don't make it free, you don't solve the problem of social exclusion and the marginalisation of those without it.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> I think it is a great policy in many ways, shades of Harry Perkins blindsiding the Tories in a very british coup, just not sure about the free bit, it could be a revenue earner to pay say for social care.


Was thinking that there would be a free package with some upgrades available


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 15, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Even housing isn't an exception. Not enough housing is being built - and what is being built is of the wrong kind - to meet the real need. A situation of permanent shortage is far more profitable than one of decent homes for all.


Ah yeah agree, I just meant issues with housing provision aren't mainly due to population density like with fixed line/railways (low pop areas get shitter provision) - in fact almost reverse with social housing


----------



## Crispy (Nov 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ultimately the state is the only option for providing mass large scale infrastructure/networks which is why it was the state which built the fixed line network and the state that built the railway network and the state which built social housing.


The railways (and to a lesser exten the phone system) were built by private industry in relentless competition.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ah yeah agree, I just meant issues with housing provision aren't mainly due to population density like with fixed line/railways (low pop areas get shitter provision) - in fact almost reverse with social housing


I see, yes. This proposal really isn't much different in that respect from the idea of a universal postal service in which everyone pays the same rate and gets the same level of service regardless of where they live. Internet is in many ways the modern equivalent of the post after all.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 15, 2019)

Crispy said:


> The railways (and to a lesser exten the phone system) were built by private industry in relentless competition.


Can't agree. A patchwork network was built by private enterprise which wasn't fit for purpose and led to disparity of service and stupid shit like different track guages, not to mention a horrendous safety record. It was state that created the railway network as we know it today.

Fixed line network was entirely state, GPO then British Telecom. Pre GPO was just hobby shit.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 15, 2019)

It’s not really that different to the state providing roads, people use different means to get shopping or socialise these days so meeting a similar need (and the early decent roads were tolled by private companies at one time). I guess opponents might argue that it’s not only providing the roads but also providing the petrol for the car.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

See the Green Party have waded in with basic income by 2025 

Green Party offers universal basic income by 2025


> The Green Party has pledged to introduce a universal basic income by 2025, which would see every adult receiving a minimum of £89 per week.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Can't agree. A patchwork network was built by private enterprise which wasn't fit for purpose and led to disparity of service and stupid shit like different track guages, not to mention a horrendous safety record. It was state that created the railway network as we know it today.
> .


And that kind of makes the point as to why this is something that should be a prime target for nationalisation. A new concept may be developed privately at first, but when it becomes transformatively successful, as the internet has and as the railways did, then it becomes something that is far too important to be left in private hands, because private hands maximise profit, they don't maximise benefit. Same with roads, where it took a nationalised system to build the modern motorways.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> What percentage of the Daily Mail comments are pisstakes do you think?


This one has to be:


----------



## Crispy (Nov 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Can't agree. A patchwork network was built by private enterprise which wasn't fit for purpose and led to disparity of service and stupid shit like different track guages, not to mention a horrendous safety record. It was state that created the railway network as we know it today.


Railway Mania - Wikipedia
10,000km of railways were built in just a few years of the boom, privately financed and barely regulated. The state didn't really control the railways until the Big Four grouping in 1923, by which time all the routes were long built.

Nationalisation then made perfect sense, but it's simply not true that "the state built the railway network"


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

Rees-Mogg seems quiet of late?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Rees-Mogg seems quiet of late?


If the tories have any sense, they've locked him inside a castle somewhere for the next month.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the tories have any sense, they've locked him inside a castle somewhere for the next month.


Sense eh?  

Hopefully he is very ill


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

blustercunt


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

brogdale said:


> blustercunt



It is painfully great to see this.


----------



## treelover (Nov 15, 2019)

Shares in BT haven't gone down much, the City doesn't think labour in power is a real possibility?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Rees-Mogg seems quiet of late?


Raab?

Turns out the vermin's focus groups couldn't identify any senior figure that the electorate could stomach!


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Shares in BT haven't gone down much, the City doesn't think labour in power is a real possibility?


If you really want to talk about the price of BT shares...


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Shares in BT haven't gone down much, the City doesn't think labour in power is a real possibility?


Who gives a fuck what those cunts think?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> Who gives a fuck what those cunts think?


My heart bleeds for the fucking shareholders


----------



## treelover (Nov 15, 2019)

Anyone over 50 knows how much power the City can wield in an election and after, do you think their power has waned?


----------



## treelover (Nov 15, 2019)

Btw, its weird seeing the Tories offering dosh everywhere, though of course, whether they would pay out is another thing.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Anyone over 50 knows how much power the City can wield in an election and after, do you think their power has waned?


Seriously, financialised capital has nothing to fear from national legislatures...they'll well above all that malarkey


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

I think paying attention to movements in the stock market as a guide to what's going to happen in an election a month away is a fool's errand


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 15, 2019)

The city wants a plan - any plan will do in the absence of anything


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 15, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Railway Mania - Wikipedia
> 10,000km of railways were built in just a few years of the boom, privately financed and barely regulated. The state didn't really control the railways until the Big Four grouping in 1923, by which time all the routes were long built.
> 
> Nationalisation then made perfect sense, but it's simply not true that "the state built the railway network"


That in no way differs to what I've just said though


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Shares in BT haven't gone down much, the City doesn't think labour in power is a real possibility?


They probably don't no but even if they did, they have plenty of time. Labour won't be seizing assets on 13/12.
They would have to get legislation through Parliament, then they would have to win a court case, come to agreements with foreign governments where there are foreign investors, possibly fight overseas court cases as well. Agree a price probably fight the odd court case over that. If they lose any then they will have to amend the legislation and start again.
Even if they win a massive majority next month, we will be halfway through the lifetime of the Parliament before any utilities are taken into public ownership.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 15, 2019)

Great to hear the dubious reasons why a free product isn't good for consumers. Apparently choice is what we currently get.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 15, 2019)

It’s a great idea and no one can say the market has provided for rural broadband or even especially reliable broadband elsewhere. It ticks all the boxes for the environment, for working and for delivering healthcare.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 15, 2019)

Badgers said:


> See the Green Party have waded in with basic income by 2025
> 
> Green Party offers universal basic income by 2025


Will probably be enough for a packet of fags by 2025.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 15, 2019)

Piece about how the tories killed off the BT fibre project decades ago because "competition":

How Thatcher killed the UK's superfast broadband before it even existed | TechRadar


----------



## belboid (Nov 15, 2019)

Great stuff, another Trump visit planned!

US President Donald Trump to visit UK ahead of general election


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 15, 2019)

belboid said:


> Great stuff, another Trump visit planned!
> 
> US President Donald Trump to visit UK ahead of general election


This is actually good imo


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

Yeah, he won't hold back from endorsing blustercunt (again) and that will, indeed, be a major electoral problem for Johnson.


----------



## belboid (Nov 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> This is actually good imo


I know, that's why I said it!


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 15, 2019)

Its got to be that Trump has invited himself with the unwavering belief that he will win the election for Johnson.  I can't believe that for one minute Johnson's advisers want this to happen.  Knuckle headed pro Trump headbangers is a vote that is firmly in the bag already for Johnson.  This will not go well.


----------



## Smangus (Nov 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> This will not go well.



it will for us


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2019)

Just a straw in the wind... in the 2 previously Labour held Croydon constituencies the Brexit Party is standing a candidate but in Croydon South where (Tory) Chris Philp faces no BP candidate, a UKIP candidate is nominated to stand.

This happening elsewhere in former Tory held seats, or just a local thing to Croydon?


----------



## teqniq (Nov 15, 2019)

One can only hope that this will be the kiss of death for the tories.

Trump confirms pre-election UK visit

E2a lol apologies I see this was already posted upthread, I stand by my observation though.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 15, 2019)

belboid said:


> Great stuff, another Trump visit planned!
> 
> US President Donald Trump to visit UK ahead of general election



Probably won’t make it as he’ll no doubt be impeached by then.


----------



## binka (Nov 15, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Probably won’t make it as he’ll no doubt be impeached by then.


He won't be


----------



## YouSir (Nov 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Its got to be that Trump has invited himself with the unwavering belief that he will win the election for Johnson.  I can't believe that for one minute Johnson's advisers want this to happen.  Knuckle headed pro Trump headbangers is a vote that is firmly in the bag already for Johnson.  This will not go well.



Maybe in his madness he thinks that over here he'll get a better reaction than the boos he's been facing back home recently. So, he's in for a nice surprise.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Its got to be that Trump has invited himself with the unwavering belief that he will win the election for Johnson.


Its a NATO meeting with all NATO leaders - they'll be at Buckingham Palace too


> Queen Elizabeth II will host a reception for NATO leaders at Buckingham Palace on 03 December to mark 70 years of NATO alliance. Allied heads of state will then meet on 04 December in Watford to discuss security challenges to "ensure that NATO continues to adapt in order to keep its population of almost one billion people safe", according to the organisation's Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 15, 2019)

YouSir said:


> Maybe in his madness he thinks that over here he'll get a better reaction than the boos he's been facing back home recently. So, he's in for a nice surprise.



Trump loves attention, good or bad.

Right now as President he’s like a pig in shit.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 15, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Its a NATO meeting with all NATO leaders - they'll be at Buckingham Palace too



That'll be nice then, Erdogan's security beating up protesters outside as Trump pretends the distant booing isn't happening and Johnson tries to convince the waiting staff that he's a normal human being.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2019)

YouSir said:


> That'll be nice then, Erdogan's security beating up protesters outside as Trump pretends the distant booing isn't happening and Johnson tries to convince the waiting staff that he's a normal human being.


IIRC demo meets at 4pm at Trafalgar Square then moves at some point on Buck Palace


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 15, 2019)

I have a mental vision of Brenda smiling and shaking hands then going to the Ladies and screaming in frustration at the idiots she has to deal with


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 15, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I have a mental vision of Brenda smiling and shaking hands then going to the Ladies and screaming in frustration at the idiots she has to deal with


She is one of the idiots.


----------



## killer b (Nov 15, 2019)

I have a mental vision of her mounting a gibbet.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 15, 2019)

killer b said:


> I have a mental vision of her mounting a gibbet.



I have a mental image of her mounting Boris Johnson. And now so do you.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 15, 2019)

Perhaps Labour should announce a plan to nationalise golf courses the day before he arrives


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 15, 2019)

YouSir said:


> I have a mental image of her mounting Boris Johnson. And now so do you.



I have a mental image of a flibbertigibbet mounting a gibbet. And now so do you.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 15, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Perhaps Labour should announce a plan to nationalise golf courses the day before he arrives



Just crazy golf?


----------



## A380 (Nov 15, 2019)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 15, 2019)

Wait, were we supposed to be paying for it?


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 15, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wait, were we supposed to be paying for it?


broadband cost


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 15, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> broadband cost



It was a joke you bonehead


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 15, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wait, were we supposed to be paying for it?


we're*


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 16, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> we're*



You’re doing that on purpose now, aren’t you?


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 16, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> You’re doing that on purpose now, aren’t you?


um no...somehow mixed up posting in 3 different places. 

apols


----------



## existentialist (Nov 16, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This quite something from the god-bothering sexting pest...
> 
> View attachment 189203
> 
> Vote tory in Wales, eh?


A god fearing sex pest with a very slim majority. There's a very active local campaign to get him unseated.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 16, 2019)

existentialist said:


> A god fearing sex pest with a very slim majority. There's a very active local campaign to get him unseated.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 16, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Perhaps Labour should announce a plan to nationalise golf courses the day before he arrives



I endorse this message.


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## Badgers (Nov 16, 2019)

Libertad said:


> I endorse this message.


Golf courses and a lot of private (hunting) land would be nice. Plus Starbucks and all other coffee chains.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Golf courses and a lot of private (hunting) land would be nice. Plus Starbucks and all other coffee chains.


Could all be renamed Costa less than before or Corbyn's for short


----------



## Badgers (Nov 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Could all be renamed Costa less than before or Corbyn's for short


Jezza's Tea Hut


----------



## Libertad (Nov 16, 2019)

Bearded Beelzebub's Bistro.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 16, 2019)

Something I would geniunely love to see is something along the lines of Polish Milk Bars Bar mleczny - Wikipedia
Cost-price wholefood canteens with limited menus, councils supporting with peppercorn rents if not outright subsidy from the state. We're not short of empty shop spaces


----------



## TopCat (Nov 16, 2019)

Have fun today peeps.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 16, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Something I would geniunely love to see is something along the lines of Polish Milk Bars Bar mleczny - Wikipedia
> Cost-price wholefood canteens with limited menus, councils supporting with peppercorn rents if not outright subsidy from the state. We're not short of empty shop spaces



there used to be state / local authority restaurants 

initially set up to help workers during the 1939-45 war, but some local authorities carried them on post 1945.  the 1950s tory governments were not keen on municipal trading, and they got closed...


----------



## kenny g (Nov 16, 2019)

Start by providing free school meals for primary children during holidays and allow carers to eat for nominal fee.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2019)

Got this through my door this morning:

 

Cheeky twat. He's well known for never showing his face round here unless he wants to get elected. Doesn't even have a Nottingham address.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 16, 2019)

Honestly what a pathetic strategy for a party that makes (undefined) change its central promise. I could understand it if standing as Independent Labour or Scargill's Socialist Labour, the subtext being we're real labour, we didn't leave labour they left us, for example Frank Field doing red and yellow literature would at least make sense even if he is a cunt. But this lot, fucking liberal dribble made up of ex tories, fuck off. Fine blend of pathetic and cynical at same time. Dickheads.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 16, 2019)

Is that Soubry still in the Tinge... and do her flyers come in blue with a squiggly tree logo?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Honestly what a pathetic strategy for a party that makes (undefined) change its central promise. I could understand it if standing as Independent Labour or Scargill's Socialist Labour, the subtext being we're real labour, we didn't leave labour they left us, for example Frank Field doing red and yellow literature would at least make sense even if he is a cunt. But this lot, fucking liberal dribble made up of ex tories, fuck off. Fine blend of pathetic and cynical at same time. Dickheads.



I wonder if Soubry down the road is running with a fake tory poster.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 16, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> there used to be state / local authority restaurants
> 
> initially set up to help workers during the 1939-45 war, but some local authorities carried them on post 1945.  the 1950s tory governments were not keen on municipal trading, and they got closed...


I’m a great believer in working class activity rather , where possible, than relying on the state . Sylvia Pankhurst’s ‘cost price restaurants ‘ are  worth looking at as an example of working class self help. Funded by donations they were set up to provide meals at affordable prices . As someone once said ‘ a helping hand not a handout’ .


----------



## treelover (Nov 16, 2019)

Election 2019: London polls show surge to the Lib Dems


Not good polling in the Observer, though it is even more biased to LD's than the Guardian, it supported New labours welfare reforms as well


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 16, 2019)

That's not where this election will be decided, though. Any loss from the tories in those seats to anyone is a bonus still.

'most libdem supporters think the tories would be better for the economy than labour'

That's an ongoing problem. Where the fuck the idea that the tories are better than labour for the economy has come from, I don't quite know, but it's a myth that is stubbornly hard to banish. It certainly doesn't come from a rational analysis of economic history.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 16, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not where this election will be decided, though. Any loss from the tories in those seats to anyone is a bonus still.
> 
> 'most libdem supporters think the tories would be better for the economy than labour'
> 
> That's an ongoing problem. Where the fuck the idea that the tories are better than labour for the economy has come from, I don't quite know, but it's a myth that is stubbornly hard to banish. It certainly doesn't come from a rational analysis of economic history.



Would agree that a Lib Dem surge in London is likely to harm the Tories.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 17, 2019)

Good to see some more coverage here


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 17, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Would agree that a Lib Dem surge in London is likely to harm the Tories.



Depends in which seats though. If this LibScum surge happens in seats were Labour was the clear challenger and LDs were miles behind in 2017, eg Chingford and Uxbridge  , the effect would probably be to save the Tory MP and stop possible Labour gains


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2019)

I really can't predict this GE. Tories still ahead about 10 points, as far as I can tell. LibDems doing well, too, supposedly, but I heard Labour had picked up a few points last week, too. 

Farage not standing in Con seats will help the Leave vote and have an impact. He's positioning himself for a coalition with that, I think: hopefully win a couple of seats and then have a DUP-style casting vote to bring about  hard Brexit and screw the NHS over.

It's a weirdly interesting one, if frightening. I might stay up most of election night for it. Ive already booked the  Friday after off work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2019)

Voley said:


> I really can't predict this GE. Tories still ahead about 10 points, as far as I can tell. LibDems doing well, too, supposedly, but I heard Labour had picked up a few points last week, too.
> 
> Farage not standing in Con seats will help the Leave vote and have an impact. He's positioning himself for a coalition with that, I think: hopefully win a couple of seats and then have a DUP-style casting vote to bring about  hard Brexit and screw the NHS over.
> 
> It's a weirdly interesting one, if frightening. I might stay up most of election night for it. Ive already booked the  Friday after off work.


Farage won't win any seats


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2019)

Voley said:


> I really can't predict this GE. Tories still ahead about 10 points, as far as I can tell. LibDems doing well, too, supposedly, but I heard Labour had picked up a few points last week, too.



Round-up of this weekend polls in this post: Political polling

There's six polling companies involved, giving the Tories between 8% & 17% lead, lower than where they were at this stage in the 2017 election, which was 15-20%.

The LibDems have dropped from their dizzy heights of getting 20-25% to 11-16%.


----------



## killer b (Nov 17, 2019)

I think farage has just fucked it. No grand strategy there, hes just totally shat the bed.


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Farage won't win any seats


I hope not but do wonder if he's directing all resources to the seats where there's an outside chance, he might cause an upset. He's not done a big publicity-grabbing 'Breaking Point' poster-type thing yet. I expect he will and this stuff usually gets him votes, sadly. Impossible to predict this GE, though, for loads of reasons.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2019)

Voley said:


> I hope not but do wonder if he's directing all resources to the seats where there's an outside chance, he might cause an upset. He's not done a big publicity-grabbing 'Breaking Point' poster-type thing yet. I expect he will and this stuff usually gets him votes, sadly. Impossible to predict this GE, though, for loads of reasons.


His u-turn on standing in every seat will have lost him votes where he does stand, the way he's handled things is unbelievably cackhanded and I expect the BP will be down to 3, 4% if not lower on the night


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> His u-turn on standing in every seat will have lost him votes where he does stand, the way he's handled things is unbelievably cackhanded and I expect the BP will be down to 3, 4% if not lower on the night


Oh I do hope you're right. I tend to plan for  the worst with that fucker, I must admit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> His u-turn on standing in every seat will have lost him votes where he does stand, the way he's handled things is unbelievably cackhanded and I expect the BP will be down to 3, 4% if not lower on the night



Agreed, their polling is already down to 4-6%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2019)

Voley said:


> Oh I do hope you're right. I tend to plan for  the worst with that fucker, I must admit.


He's twisted and turned like a twisty-turny thing and his shift from 'boris' plan isn't brexit' to 'i won't oppose tories' shows quite how fluid his principles are


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2019)

My constituency, St Ives, will be interesting. As marginal as you like. Cons hung on by a mere 312 votes. LibDem bloke very popular locally.

I'd say I'll stay up to see this result come in but it could be a recount if it's this close again.


----------



## treelover (Nov 17, 2019)

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...eryone-what-could-possibly-go-wrong-with-that


> Free stuff for absolutely everyone. What could possibly go wrong with that? | Andrew Rawnsley
> 
> Voters won’t trust politicians promising the moon if they suspect it will end up costing them the earth




Rawnsley is so fucking blatant, i began this article thinking it was going to be about all the main parties huge giveways, but no, it is only about labour and of course Corbyn. might consider a complaint.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 17, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> I’m a great believer in working class activity rather , where possible, than relying on the state . Sylvia Pankhurst’s ‘cost price restaurants ‘ are  worth looking at as an example of working class self help. Funded by donations they were set up to provide meals at affordable prices . As someone once said ‘ a helping hand not a handout’ .


Not mutually exclusive, both good. Ideal situation I think is a state that helps create and support grassroots initiatives, but not in the spirit of letting themselves off the hook of the states obligations iyswim (a la big shitiety). From what I've heard GLC threw a load of cash around in this positive fashion.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 17, 2019)

Voley said:


> My constituency, St Ives, will be interesting. As marginal as you like. Cons hung on by a mere 312 votes. LibDem bloke very popular locally.
> 
> I'd say I'll stay up to see this result come in but it could be a recount if it's this close again.
> 
> View attachment 190198


I'd hate to live somewhere like that tbh, there is no way I would vote for a libdem


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 17, 2019)

treelover said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...eryone-what-could-possibly-go-wrong-with-that
> 
> 
> Rawnsley is so fucking blatant, i began this article thinking it was going to be about all the main parties huge giveways, but no, it is only about labour and of course Corbyn. might consider a complaint.


Link is not working there but here it is: Free stuff for absolutely everyone. What could possibly go wrong with that? | Andrew Rawnsley

And yes it is awful, full of every cliche: free stuff, someone else will pay, gift to the middle classes, how's it going to be paid for, Labour not trustworthy etc, framed as "this is what the public will be thinking" which is a rhetorical tactic about as convincing as starting with "some people say...".


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 17, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'd hate to live somewhere like that tbh, there is no way I would vote for a libdem


I'd still vote labour somewhere like that. Solidarity with the few others who do the same, save the deposit at least...


----------



## Poi E (Nov 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Link is not working there but here it is: Free stuff for absolutely everyone. What could possibly go wrong with that? | Andrew Rawnsley
> 
> And yes it is awful, full of every cliche: free stuff, someone else will pay, gift to the middle classes, how's it going to be paid for, Labour not trustworthy etc, framed as "this is what the public will be thinking" which is a rhetorical tactic about as convincing as starting with "some people say...".



What's with the whole silk tie leaning in to let you in on the honest truth schtick?


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'd hate to live somewhere like that tbh, there is no way I would vote for a libdem


Options fairly limited, you're right. Labour canvasser mate of mine says he's been getting lots of positive stuff on the doorsteps but I'd be very surprised if it turned over a gap  like that.


----------



## Voley (Nov 17, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'd still vote labour somewhere like that. Solidarity with the few others who do the same, save the deposit at least...


Annoyingly, if you live a few miles up the road in Camborne your Labour vote is actually really worth something. Only a couple of thousand votes in it last time round:


----------



## BCBlues (Nov 18, 2019)

Yeshua...who the hell are this lot popping up in some Midlands areas, West Brom included where I have family. They are also blessed with George Galloway as an option.

My own constituency has an A Nettle as the Green candidate


----------



## elbows (Nov 18, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Yeshua...who the hell are this lot popping up in some Midlands areas, West Brom included where I have family



Their candidate in West Brom East:



> As the Pastoral Leader of Active Christians Ministry , I believe God has kept me grounded to fulfil all of these tasks. I want to connect with others to share my expertise and experience. I am also looking for franchisees to open up a Schools nationally and internationally.
> 
> ASPIRATIONS I AM CURRENTLY PURSUING:
> To be the Prime minister of the uk see www.yeshuaparty.co.uk
> Or Mayor of a unified Great Britain (including the remaining Common Wealth Countries). This is to increase international trade to help increase business for all the local areas as we operate within a global market.



https://uk.linkedin.com/in/homeschool


----------



## elbows (Nov 18, 2019)

They probably only have one or two candidates, based on their past electoral performance its really little more than a one man band.

Some manifesto highlights:



> There will be a flat-rate tax system to create a fair society.





> There will be start-up support for the slaughtering of animals. There will be mobile abattoirs where individuals will have the opportunity to slaughter animals and lock up their equipment. This data will be stored on a secure computer system.





> The Yeshua Party will create a fairer society founded upon Biblical principles where individuals are not judged and are given a choice. Communities and corporations will be held accountable for their actions.





> Single parents will receive financial support for a child and there will be tighter inspections to ensure that the money is spent on that child.





> Funding for ministries and good causes.
> 
> The lottery must simplify the good causes that they support and distribute funds equally.





> Pro-life
> 
> We encourage the route of counselling rather than abortion.
> 
> Individuals will receive the biblical knowledge of what they do.





> Safeguarding
> 
> There will be support within a home where a child is at minor risk but where the risk can be eliminated.
> 
> There will be more rigorous standards of investigation and harsher consequences to false allegations. There are current flaws that enable people to falsely accuse others of criminal activity without any real evidence. There is a revenge culture that is sustained by inadequate investigation processes and this needs to stop. This disturbs the child and leads to family breakdown.



Detailed manifesto


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 18, 2019)

Manifesto:

Tax cuts for the rich
Mobile slaughter houses
Don't break up families by errr removing at risk kids

They sound lovely


----------



## BCBlues (Nov 18, 2019)

Its 


Proper Tidy said:


> Manifesto:
> 
> Tax cuts for the rich
> Mobile slaughter houses
> ...



Its them or Galloway


----------



## flypanam (Nov 18, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Its
> 
> 
> Its them or Galloway


Spunking cock not an option?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 18, 2019)

I'd go for self immolation


----------



## Wilf (Nov 18, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Yeshua...who the hell are this lot popping up in some Midlands areas, West Brom included where I have family. They are also blessed with George Galloway as an option.
> 
> My own constituency has an A Nettle as the Green candidate


Haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure we've got A Cunt standing for the tories here.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 18, 2019)

When are we supposed to get our polling cards?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 18, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> When are we supposed to get our polling cards?


Three weeks before polling day. But you don’t need them for anything. Although they can be used as bookmarks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Three weeks before polling day. But you don’t need them for anything. Although they can be used as bookmarks.


made into paper darts


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 18, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Three weeks before polling day. But you don’t need them for anything. Although they can be used as bookmarks.


good roach as well


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure we've got A Cunt standing for the tories here.


it's the same in pretty much every other constituency


----------



## marty21 (Nov 18, 2019)

Astonishing that the Tories still have a healthy lead in the polls - Boris and the affair/corruption is getting media play - the Russian thing is also, they might as well print the bloody report, it's being talked about anyway - the JRM Grenfell stuff - and still the support does not seem to be ebbing away .


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Astonishing that the Tories still have a healthy lead in the polls - Boris and the affair/corruption is getting media play - the Russian thing is also, they might as well print the bloody report, it's being talked about anyway - the JRM Grenfell stuff - and still the support does not seem to be ebbing away .


there are still 24 fucking-up days for the tories before the polls close


----------



## Badgers (Nov 18, 2019)

Was interesting to spend some time with my mum yesterday discussing the election and the current political situation. She (unlike my dad) has never been that politically active and very green leaning in her views. Over the years she has wobbled between the Green, Labour and LibDem parties mostly on policy rather than the party leaders. Right now she is really scared  partly about another Tory era but mostly about Johnson coming to power and what that stands for. 

She is far from rich but financially secure compared to many. She is just afraid of the hostility, the greed and what what is lying ahead. It seems in part for herself (older woman living alone) but also for society as a whole. Was sad to see.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there are still 24 fucking-up days for the tories before the polls close


For the loyal Tories, all this Boris shit is just Boris being Boris so they'll still vote for him as the alternative is that Commie Corbyn - it's the moderates he has to be concerned about , if they get pissed off with the Affair/Corruption/Russia stuff , then the lead may start to decrease.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2019)

still a couple of days before the 120 days of sod 'im are up


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 18, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> When are we supposed to get our polling cards?



Got mine last week.


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> For the loyal Tories, all this Boris shit is just Boris being Boris so they'll still vote for him as the alternative is that Commie Corbyn - it's the moderates he has to be concerned about , if they get pissed off with the Affair/Corruption/Russia stuff , then the lead may start to decrease.


I'm pretty sure none of it will make any difference if it hasn't done by now tbh. There's nothing there in any of those three things that everyone doesn't already know to some degree.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Astonishing that the Tories still have a healthy lead in the polls - Boris and the affair/corruption is getting media play - the Russian thing is also, they might as well print the bloody report, it's being talked about anyway - the JRM Grenfell stuff - and still the support does not seem to be ebbing away .



They were polling slightly higher at this stage in 2017.


----------



## maomao (Nov 18, 2019)

Got mine already too. We're in the church itself this time cause the church hall is usually a homeless shelter for the month. Gives me a chance for a nose around. I know I'm welcome anytime but I worry about being too welcome.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 18, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> good roach as well


beat me to it


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 18, 2019)

Got mine already. Bet you all wish you got to vote in a caravan.


----------



## maomao (Nov 18, 2019)

The Tories have now dropped their pledge to cut corporation tax because they want the money for public services. Which kind of shows uo their claim that cutting taxes raises money for the blatant lie it always was.

If we had a nice 'moderate' labour party with a Tory lite manifesto they'd probably bably be committing to an extra two percent cut.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 18, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Got mine last week.



Our polling cards also arrived last week


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> Got mine already. Bet you all wish you got to vote in a caravan.
> 
> View attachment 190301


Part of a ward near me have, for years, voted in a portakabin in a builders' merchant's yard...this time, even that's gone & they all have to schlep best part of a mile through industrial estates to the 'new' one in another polling district. Surprise, surprise...one of the most deprived/most Labour parts of the borough given a huge barrier to vote. This is the way voter suppression starts.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 18, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> Got mine already. Bet you all wish you got to vote in a caravan.
> 
> View attachment 190301


How they expect the good people of Barnes to vote in a caravan? #appalled


----------



## Badgers (Nov 18, 2019)

Polling card arrived Friday


----------



## marty21 (Nov 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm pretty sure none of it will make any difference if it hasn't done by now tbh. There's nothing there in any of those three things that everyone doesn't already know to some degree.


I agree, but it might swing the undecided - and they could be crucial.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> How they expect the good people of Barnes to vote in a caravan? #appalled



In reality it's more of a proper portacabin with wheelchair access these days than a caravan. 

What I don't understand though is why whenever I've been to vote, in a swing constituency where the Tories only won by 45 votes last time, there have been no exit pollsters.


----------



## Argonia (Nov 18, 2019)

How can they run an election in a caravan?

(sorry has already been answered, my bad)


----------



## maomao (Nov 18, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> whenever I've been to vote, in a swing constituency where the Tories only won by 45 votes last time, there have been no exit pollsters.


I've always wanted to be exit polled so I can tell them to fuck off it's none of their business and then immediately tell everyone on the internet how I voted.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 18, 2019)

maomao said:


> I've always wanted to be exit polled so I can tell them to fuck off it's none of their business and then immediately tell everyone on the internet how I voted.



Same. I've always wanted to fuck with them somehow for the lol. I have to make do with weirding out the officials in the portacabin.


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> In reality it's more of a proper portacabin with wheelchair access these days than a caravan.
> 
> What I don't understand though is why whenever I've been to vote, in a swing constituency where the Tories only won by 45 votes last time, there have been no exit pollsters.


they don't do exit polls in all constituencies - they use the same ones each time and extrapolate nationally from the changes observed in the sample seats.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Astonishing that the Tories still have a healthy lead in the polls - Boris and the affair/corruption is getting media play - the Russian thing is also, they might as well print the bloody report, it's being talked about anyway - the JRM Grenfell stuff - and still the support does not seem to be ebbing away .



It’s all ‘get Brexit done’ and nothing much else to offer. People aren’t really reading the small print that says this also comes with five fucking years of Tory rule. 

We’ve seen what they’ve done to hospitals over the last nine years, who the fuck would think ‘yes, let’s have some more of that’. It’s almost like people want to die of something preventable on a trolley in a corridor.


----------



## belboid (Nov 18, 2019)

Swinson's going to have her sulky face on again Lib Dems and SNP lose high court bid over TV election debate


----------



## Crispy (Nov 18, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s all ‘get Brexit done’ and nothing much else to offer. People aren’t really reading the small print that says this also comes with five fucking years of Tory rule.


It'll also be five more years of Getting Brexit Done


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2019)

Anyone done any doorknocking? 

I did some at the weekend in the North East Derbyshire constituency, Tory held at the moment and Labour really need to win it back. Was alright, kind of reactions you would expect but was surprised at how little time Labour actually knocked doors for (some were going somewhere else in the afternoon but most just going home).


----------



## Badgers (Nov 18, 2019)

Leafleting loads and bullying neighbours but not knocking on doors. 

(I can't be trusted tbh)


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Anyone done any doorknocking?
> 
> I did some at the weekend in the North East Derbyshire constituency, Tory held at the moment and Labour really need to win it back. Was alright, kind of reactions you would expect but was surprised at how little time Labour actually knocked doors for (some were going somewhere else in the afternoon but most just going home).


How many of you were out? They seem to be getting insane numbers of people turning up in some areas, and in most cases are still using paper canvas sheets, so I think they often can't respond flexibly when a hundred people turn up. 

Most of these areas are used to going canvasing with 4 time servers, and they have no idea how to organise a big group...


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> How many of you were out? They seem to be getting insane numbers of people turning up in some areas, and in most cases are still using paper canvas sheets, so I think they often can't respond flexibly when a hundred people turn up.
> 
> Most of these areas are used to going canvasing with 4 time servers, and they have no idea how to organise a big group...



Yeah I think that's definitely a possibility. 55 came out. I don't think they had planned to do that many boards. 

I was also silently enraged by the incompetence of the guy running my board.


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2019)

Give them a break, no-one really knows what they're doing. There's no staff coming from the region to help organise so it's all down to how useful the local regulars are, and mostly they aren't useful IME


----------



## belboid (Nov 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Anyone done any doorknocking?
> 
> I did some at the weekend in the North East Derbyshire constituency, Tory held at the moment and Labour really need to win it back. Was alright, kind of reactions you would expect but was surprised at how little time Labour actually knocked doors for (some were going somewhere else in the afternoon but most just going home).


similar story, reaction wise.  Sounds a bit more organised here. NEDs is getting a lot more turnout, cos of the seat and the candidate. PLeasantly surprised we are beig encouraged to have bit more of an actual conversation this time.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> Give them a break, no-one really knows what they're doing. There's no staff coming from the region to help organise so it's all down to how useful the local regulars are, and mostly they aren't useful IME



Yeah I know. I didn't voice any criticism and smiled politely whenever he got confused or mixed up.


----------



## Voley (Nov 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yeah I know. I didn't voice any criticism and smiled politely whenever he got confused or mixed up.


That's like me with Corbyn.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 18, 2019)

In about 15 years living in Worthing, I've never had anyone knock my door, bit pointless TBH as Peter Bottomley always get over 50%.

Actually, Bottomley almost knocked my door in 2015, but spotted me in the garden & popped his head over the fence instead, I guess I was too polite by just saying something like, 'I am not voting for you, I am not interested in discussing it with you, I am busy, goodbye.'


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 18, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> In about 15 years living in Worthing, I've never had anyone knock my door, bit pointless TBH as Peter Bottomley always get over 50%.
> 
> Actually, Bottomley almost knocked my door in 2015, but spotted me in the garden & popped his head over the fence instead, I guess I was too polite by just saying something like, 'I am not voting for you, I am not interested in discussing it with you, I am busy, goodbye.'


That was nice of you.  He only has so much time to knock the doors, you really helped him there.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 18, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> In about 15 years living in Worthing, I've never had anyone knock my door, bit pointless TBH as Peter Bottomley always get over 50%.
> 
> Actually, Bottomley almost knocked my door in 2015, but spotted me in the garden & popped his head over the fence instead, I guess I was too polite by just saying something like, 'I am not voting for you, I am not interested in discussing it with you, I am busy, goodbye.'



I'm surprised he bothers coming to the constituency at all...it's not exactly a close contest.

Cheers - Louis  MacNeice


----------



## MrSki (Nov 18, 2019)

Well here's a surprise.


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Anyone done any doorknocking?
> 
> I did some at the weekend in the North East Derbyshire constituency, Tory held at the moment and Labour really need to win it back. Was alright, kind of reactions you would expect but was surprised at how little time Labour actually knocked doors for (some were going somewhere else in the afternoon but most just going home).


Went out in Bristol NW the other day. Bellwether marginal currently held by Labour (first time in decades that it's not been held by the governing party). We had Bristol Momentum with us so were able to cover loads of ground with people who had done plenty of this sort of thing already. Three sessions through the day (I did two) and loads going on elsewhere nearby as well (I seem to have ended up in about five WhatsApp grounps for Bristol NW, Filton & Bradley Stoke, Momentum etc).
Labour vote is holding up healthily, both from my own personal experience (roughly half the people who answered their doors to me instantly promised to vote Labour) and from numbers that I've seen/anecdotal stuff I've heard. Local people understand it's marginal, it's a two horse race etc
People canvassing in Bristol West aren't remotely concerned that the Greens are throwing the kitchen sink at it and reckon Labour will hold easily.
Am told that Tory marginal Filton & Bradley Stoke "feels good". I'll see for myself on Wednesday when I've promised to go out on the doors in Severn Beach, one of the more Tory villages in F&BS. Sitting MP is Jack Lo Presti and he is a CUNT. Everybody knows it as well, even the Tories.
Bristol Momentum are pretty active in the marginals, organising regular trips to F&BS, Kingswood and BNW and having weekend awaydays to Gloucester, Stroud, Vale of Glamorgan. They've got good numbers, loads of them down in town and being well directed to where they're needed.

If Labour don't hold or move forward in the West of England then it won't be for lack of numbers and effort.


----------



## Just saying ... (Nov 18, 2019)

marty21 said:


> How they expect the good people of Barnes to vote in a caravan? #appalled



Just think of it as a shepherd’s hut if it helps . . .


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

My mate just messaged to say she's out locally to her tonight and everybody's voting Labour. That's Hackney South & Shoreditch mind so no real surprise! She helped out in Blackpool South on the weekend and said it was tough but some positive responses too


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

Oh, big registration drive at UWE led by Momentum as well. Could be very helpful in F&BS, Kingswood and BNW where many of their students live


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2019)

Voley said:


> That's like me with Corbyn.



What would your criticism of Corbyn be?


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Nov 18, 2019)

Manchester Momentum are doing loads, organising phone banking as much as on the door stuff.


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> How many of you were out? They seem to be getting insane numbers of people turning up in some areas, and in most cases are still using paper canvas sheets, so I think they often can't respond flexibly when a hundred people turn up.
> 
> Most of these areas are used to going canvasing with 4 time servers, and they have no idea how to organise a big group...


While this kind of thing can be frustrating, two years ago similar things were happening but with relatively safe seats being swamped by eager volunteers. So at least this time the organised chaos is being directed at winnable places rather than seats that are safely in the bag


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 18, 2019)

Bristol East will stay with Kerry I have no doubt.

If Kingswood could swing it would be good.


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

Just been told that Chingford and Kensington have such huge numbers turning up that they're being redirected to Harlow, Thurrock etc

Friend of a friend was in Canterbury on the weekend and says things reasonably positive for Labour despite Lib Dem nonsense


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2019)

JTG said:


> While this kind of thing can be frustrating, two years ago similar things were happening but with relatively safe seats being swamped by eager volunteers. So at least this time the organised chaos is being directed at winnable places rather than seats that are safely in the bag


The numbers turning out are impressive, and serve something of a purpose just as a demonstration of the strength of the party - but I do think they could be directed a bit more intelligently as the campaign goes on. What's the point in 200 people turning up in one seat and only getting to do half an hours actual door knocking?


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Bristol East will stay with Kerry I have no doubt.
> 
> If Kingswood could swing it would be good.


No way is Kerry losing East and if she does then we're in proper meltdown territory

Kingswood would be huge. Sure that the Kingswood/New Cheltenham parts can be turned out for Labour but it's bloody Hanham, Longwell Green, Emersons Green etc that worry me


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 18, 2019)

JTG said:


> Friend of a friend was in Canterbury on the weekend and says things reasonably positive for Labour despite Lib Dem nonsense



but the bar chart shows that only the lib dem can stand a chance of coming second to the tories*

* assuming both the other candidates have just been done for molesting sheep or something similarly anti-social


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> The numbers turning out are impressive, and serve something of a purpose just as a demonstration of the strength of the party - but I do think they could be directed a bit more intelligently as the campaign goes on. What's the point in 200 people turning up in one seat and only getting to do half an hours actual door knocking?


Sure. The MyCampaignMap thing is a step forward from MyNearestMarginal last time around but still needs managing better tbh. Parts of Bristol NW getting good turn outs while others have the usual half dozen plodding around - probably cos it's down to ward secretaries or whoever to put details on and not all of them are on the ball with it


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but the bar chart shows that only the lib dem can stand a chance of coming second to the tories*
> 
> * assuming both the other candidates have just been done for molesting sheep or something similarly anti-social


Twitter joke of the day: "Your wife has gone into labour sir" "*gasps* but only the Lib Dems can win here!"

Someone who knows Wimbledon reckons that constituency level poll from yesterday is garbage, as is the Kensington one


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> The numbers turning out are impressive, and serve something of a purpose just as a demonstration of the strength of the party - but I do think they could be directed a bit more intelligently as the campaign goes on. What's the point in 200 people turning up in one seat and only getting to do half an hours actual door knocking?


Also I think that turning out big numbers in the right areas for GOTV on the day is gonna be crucial


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 18, 2019)

Those doing canvassing - last time round were you doing stuff in the evenings, and are people still doing evening canvassing this time of year? Just wondered if the darker nights/crap weather was having any effect on this in terms of turnout and willingness to bother people on the doorstep.


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Those doing canvassing - last time round were you doing stuff in the evenings, and are people still doing evening canvassing this time of year? Just wondered if the darker nights/crap weather was having any effect on this in terms of turnout and willingness to bother people on the doorstep.


Got nothing to compare it to as I wasn't active last time. Though I guess that makes me an increase on numbers myself
There are plenty of evening sessions occurring in my neck of the woods anyway

Labour have just launched their phone banking operation as well and already seen a pic on twitter of people in Humberside having a phone bank party for Truro & Falmouth. Hopefully that'll be well used as well


----------



## Voley (Nov 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What would your criticism of Corbyn be?


Brexit and antisemitism. All over the place on both.


----------



## strung out (Nov 18, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Bristol East will stay with Kerry I have no doubt.
> 
> If Kingswood could swing it would be good.


I got a 'sorry I missed you' note from Kerry yesterday. Bit gutted, as I would have loved to tell her she had our support.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2019)

Voley said:


> Brexit and antisemitism. All over the place on both.



I mean, he is a little bit all over the place on both but I've got this feeling you won't have anything useful to say on it.


----------



## JTG (Nov 18, 2019)

strung out said:


> I got a 'sorry I missed you' note from Kerry yesterday. Bit gutted, as I would have loved to tell her she had our support.


Have you persuaded the cat yet?


----------



## killer b (Nov 18, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I mean, he is a little bit all over the place on both but I've got this feeling you won't have anything useful to say on it.


I'm not sure being brittle and defensive over some really mild criticism that you seem to mostly actually agree with is that _useful_ either tbf.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure being brittle and defensive over some really mild criticism that you seem to mostly actually agree with is that _useful_ either tbf.



That is fair.


----------



## Sue (Nov 19, 2019)

Fucking hell, when did everyone go Labour? I mean I know a few people did when Corbyn won the leadership but surprised people are not only still in but going out canvassing for them.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 19, 2019)

Sue : Because they're anti-Tory?


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

Sue said:


> Fucking hell, when did everyone go Labour? I mean I know a few people did when Corbyn won the leadership but surprised people are not only still in but going out canvassing for them.



Yeah. I've almost, _almost_, been tempted myself 

(I haven't, and I won't, but...)

It's definitely "a thing". Even more than 2017.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 19, 2019)

Interesting video report from Mahyar Tousi reporting on Dianne Abbott accidentally leaking Labours open border policy on twitter and Mahyar speaks to a few voters in Stevenage.



Spoiler


----------



## Badgers (Nov 19, 2019)

The IEA eh?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 19, 2019)

More from the IEA

New health secretary received £32,000 in donations from chair of think tank that wants NHS 'abolished'


----------



## teqniq (Nov 19, 2019)

I wish someone would actually leak the thing rather than little drips of information here and there. Then at least we would know whether it was worth making a fuss about.

Russia report suppressed because Downing Street is concerned it raises questions over validity of referendum result


----------



## teuchter (Nov 19, 2019)

Sue said:


> Fucking hell, when did everyone go Labour? I mean I know a few people did when Corbyn won the leadership but surprised people are not only still in but going out canvassing for them.


I've been waiting for things to kick off on this front


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2019)

Sue said:


> Fucking hell, when did everyone go Labour? I mean I know a few people did when Corbyn won the leadership but surprised people are not only still in but going out canvassing for them.



Almost without exception all the 'anarchists' I know are not only voting for Labour, but are very, very excited about them and many of them are out canvassing for them too.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

Sue said:


> Fucking hell, when did everyone go Labour? I mean I know a few people did when Corbyn won the leadership but surprised people are not only still in but going out canvassing for them.


It’s not something I’d advocate. Voting is one thing, but actually joining an electoral party and canvassing. Nope.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 19, 2019)

FactCheck: Johnson wrong about Labour corporation tax


> There are various ways to measure corporate tax rates, but stats from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) show that on all standard measures, a 26 per cent rate would not see the UK take top spot as Mr Johnson claims.
> 
> Looking at the rate set by central governments, we’d be behind France, Portugal, Belgium, and Greece. The same is true when we look at the combined corporate income tax rate (a measure that includes taxes levelled locally, as happens in some countries outside the UK).
> 
> The Conservative Party were contacted for comment.


I look forward to the comment


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 19, 2019)

Received my first tory leaflet through the post yesterday.  A frankly quite bizarre piece of work which was mostly asking us about what campaign she should run.  Also wittering on about Crossrail 2.  Given Crossrail 1 is not finished yet and a bit of a hot potato to say the least its a bloody odd thing to build a campaign around.  Also there are some other things going on at the moment which are a bit more important.

As per usual now in London, not one mention of Brexit or Johnson.  They must fear being wiped out down here.


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

I think there's a number of factors at play in the collapse into Labour:

The weakness of the extra-parliamentary left. 

Labour putting forward what is ostensibly the most Left-wing platform in most of our living memories.

The hegemony of liberalism within the movements - Brexit, idpol, climate change etc.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Almost without exception all the 'anarchists' I know are not only voting for Labour, but are very, very excited about them and many of them are out canvassing for them too.



Anarchists for ye


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

Also there's a pole of attraction on the edge of Labour that "we" can't match: Momentum, TWT, Novara Media, Acid Corbynism etc. and it's being articulated by some prominent faces (Sarkar, Jones, Blakeley, Mason etc.) who do "we" have?


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

All of the above, but mostly I'm motivated mainly by the desire to see those cunts weeping on the 13th tbh


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think there's a number of factors at play in the collapse into Labour:
> 
> The weakness of the extra-parliamentary left.
> 
> ...


One of the (many) difficulties I have with Labour in particular is how much Labour here in Scotland was until very recently the ossified political establishment. In monolithic local government, in the parliamentary seats, in civil society. It wasn’t a progressive force, it was a force of conservatism (small c) and establishment. They had been in power in many local governments for many decades. They were the administrations who implemented the poll tax. They carried out the warrant sales. And they took the working class for granted. And here in Scotland they show no sign of remorse or change.

There is no chance I’d campaign for them.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

Also, a general election is our world cup, and by joining a campaign you're actually playing rather than watching from the stands.


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think there's a number of factors at play in the collapse into Labour:
> 
> The weakness of the extra-parliamentary left.
> 
> ...



I wonder what's it's all going to collapse into if Labour lose? The next thing with a slight glimmer of hope that people can get excited about for six months?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

And just to add that locally it’d mean working with people like this (posted by me two years ago: Scottish Labour, bast*rds the lot of them ).

Absolutely no chance.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> Also, a general election is our world cup, and by joining a campaign you're actually playing rather than watching from the stands.



I wouldn't trust the stand if I was you.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I wonder what's it's all going to collapse into if Labour lose? The next thing with a slight glimmer of hope that people can get excited about for six months?


I think there's going to be plenty of things to do if they lose.


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

This sums it up perfectly for me.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I wonder what's it's all going to collapse into if Labour lose? The next thing with a slight glimmer of hope that people can get excited about for six months?


also there's this: Labour Transformed


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think there's a number of factors at play in the collapse into Labour:
> 
> The weakness of the extra-parliamentary left.
> 
> Labour putting forward what is ostensibly the most Left-wing platform in most of our living memories.



Few people want far left policies so Labour put forward nationalization and other far left policies. Add the leader is a pointless wanker that makes Johnson look like a better choice (That's pretty hard to do), and you have what is very possibly going to be an absolute smashing at the polls. It's too late for this election and prolly Brexit, but the whole party needs a big shakeup before the next one.
I'm going to get hammered by the far left for this post, but that's because they're too fucking stupid to realise a mildly left but electable Labour party that will take care of the NHS and the rest of the welfare state is far better than years of tory shit.

I await being told I'm a wanker for wanting an Electable Labour party that'll stop the tories fucking up the country.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Few people want far left policies so Labour put forward nationalization and other far left policies.


I mean... all the polling on nationalisation for key utilities, rail etc, for years and years on end directly contradicts your claim here.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> nationalization and other far left policies


This is why nobody takes you seriously. Nationalisation is “far left”. FFS.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Few people want far left policies so Labour put forward nationalization and other far left policies. Add the leader is a pointless wanker that makes Johnson look like a better choice (That's pretty hard to do), and you have what is very possibly going to be an absolute smashing at the polls. It's too late for this election and prolly Brexit, but the whole party needs a big shakeup before the next one.
> I'm going to get hammered by the far left for this post, but that's because they're too fucking stupid to realise a mildly left but electable Labour party that will take care of the NHS and the rest of the welfare state is far better than years of tory shit.
> 
> I await being told I'm a wanker for wanting an Electable Labour party that'll stop the tories fucking up the country.


The people that you so naively rail at actually saved the labour party from the utter destruction you and people like you were wreaking on it. I have no doubt that you and people like you will never give up until they are destroyed for doing so -  and you will then put in place the original destruction that they managed to prevent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Few people want far left policies so Labour put forward nationalization and other far left policies. Add the leader is a pointless wanker that makes Johnson look like a better choice (That's pretty hard to do), and you have what is very possibly going to be an absolute smashing at the polls. It's too late for this election and prolly Brexit, but the whole party needs a big shakeup before the next one.
> I'm going to get hammered by the far left for this post, but that's because they're too fucking stupid to realise a mildly left but electable Labour party that will take care of the NHS and the rest of the welfare state is far better than years of tory shit.
> 
> I await being told I'm a wanker for wanting an Electable Labour party that'll stop the tories fucking up the country.


you're a wanker in part because you lie about other people


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Almost without exception all the 'anarchists' I know are not only voting for Labour, but are very, very excited about them and many of them are out canvassing for them too.


Piss poor anarchists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'm going to get hammered by the far left for this post, but that's because they're too fucking stupid to realise a mildly left but electable Labour party that will take care of the NHS and the rest of the welfare state is far better than years of tory shit.


you don't remember neil kinnock, do you? or gordon brown?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Few people want far left policies so Labour put forward nationalization and other far left policies. Add the leader is a pointless wanker that makes Johnson look like a better choice (That's pretty hard to do), and you have what is very possibly going to be an absolute smashing at the polls. It's too late for this election and prolly Brexit, but the whole party needs a big shakeup before the next one.
> I'm going to get hammered by the far left for this post, but that's because they're too fucking stupid to realise a mildly left but electable Labour party that will take care of the NHS and the rest of the welfare state is far better than years of tory shit.
> 
> I await being told I'm a wanker for wanting an Electable Labour party that'll stop the tories fucking up the country.



It isn't the far left that is hammering your posts, it's everyone.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 19, 2019)

Anarchists for Corbyn is not a contradictory position... It's a strategic and  realpolitik one. Have recently heard the case made made in different ways by Erik Wright and  Chomsky though intellectuals aside  it's pretty obvious as to why

-people want to end 50 straight years of neoliberalist government in the UK, and aren't exactly looking forward to the impact of a Boris Brexit and the rest of the Tory program

-they want to improve their own lot and that of the rest of the working class

-they recognise that their own political ideals have a better chance of coming to be realised or enabled under a society shaped  by a Corbyn government  than a Tory one.

- they recognise the limits of an anarchist movement, barely able to put on a bookfair without tearing chunks off one another, never mind anything else

-the Labour party is changing at grassroots level, and that change is coming from below. There's potential to extend bottom up power both in that party and within the state if that influence can be extended. Anarchist ideas have a big role to play within that, and to a lesser extent already have over the last I don't know twenty years in widely extending the logic of horizontalism in heirchical socialist organisations

Etc  etc etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Piss poor anarchists.


tbh it's a position i have some sympathy with, because for a change the alternatives are make things a bit worse (corbyn) or make them very much worse (johnson).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it's a position i have some sympathy with, because for a change the alternatives are make things a bit worse (corbyn) or make them very much worse (johnson).



The alternative is wanting option two to happen because you think that deepening national misery will somehow hurry along the violent revolution.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it's a position i have some sympathy with, because for a change the alternatives are make things a bit worse (corbyn) or make them very much worse (johnson).


Sure. But there’s a difference between _preferring_ Crohn’s disease to pancreatic cancer and actually _campaigning for_ Crohn’s disease.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Sure. But there’s a difference between _preferring_ Crohn’s disease to pancreatic cancer and actually _campaigning for_ Crohn’s disease.


let me be clear, i am not campaigning for nor will i vote for corbyn


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> let me be clear, i am not campaigning for nor will i vote for corbyn


Fair comment. But I was replying to the general point.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Sure. But there’s a difference between _preferring_ Crohn’s disease to pancreatic cancer and actually _campaigning for_ Crohn’s disease.


Though I believe that self-described anarchists should be free to do what they want regarding rep.dem....there's a troubling logic that, if they were to engage with the process, voting for the party pledged to remove one layer of (supra) state control might make most sense?


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Few people want far left policies so Labour put forward nationalization and other far left policies. Add the leader is a pointless wanker that makes Johnson look like a better choice (That's pretty hard to do), and you have what is very possibly going to be an absolute smashing at the polls. It's too late for this election and prolly Brexit, but the whole party needs a big shakeup before the next one.
> I'm going to get hammered by the far left for this post, but that's because they're too fucking stupid to realise a mildly left but electable Labour party that will take care of the NHS and the rest of the welfare state is far better than years of tory shit.
> 
> I await being told I'm a wanker for wanting an Electable Labour party that'll stop the tories fucking up the country.



Just be honest and admit you're a libdem shill


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Though I believe that self-described anarchists should be free to do what they want regarding rep.dem....there's a troubling logic that, if they were to engage with the process, voting for the party pledged to remove one layer of (supra) state control might make most sense?


I’m not seeking to prescribe anything on behalf of anarchists. Voting for or campaigning for parliamentary parties. But personally I’ll be doing the former but can’t see the circumstances in which I’d do the latter.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I await being told I'm a wanker



You're a wanker. Feel better now?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yeah. I've almost, _almost_, been tempted myself
> 
> (I haven't, and I won't, but...)
> 
> It's definitely "a thing". Even more than 2017.


It's a weird one isn't it, I feel the pull, even though there are many parts of corbyn's politics that I don't like and I think labour are basically cunts, although I would rather have any labour govt than a tory one and I would rather have a Corbyn/labour left govt than any other labour govt. Won't join or canvass though obv.

I think the dynamic of painting corbyn/labour lefts politics as dangerous, not mostly for the parts that are toxic like the shitty anti imperialism or the wet stuff like being err labour, but for the stuff that we would all welcome like addressing housing inequality, wealth inequality etc, drives it, that's what creates the siege mentality and the pull, but that causes problems - there are people I know now heavily into labour and turning a blind eye to stuff that I know they wouldn't have a few years ago. Funny times.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 19, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Few people want far left policies so Labour put forward nationalization and other far left policies. Add the leader is a pointless wanker that makes Johnson look like a better choice (That's pretty hard to do), and you have what is very possibly going to be an absolute smashing at the polls. It's too late for this election and prolly Brexit, but the whole party needs a big shakeup before the next one.
> I'm going to get hammered by the far left for this post, but that's because they're too fucking stupid to realise a mildly left but electable Labour party that will take care of the NHS and the rest of the welfare state is far better than years of tory shit.
> 
> I await being told I'm a wanker for wanting an Electable Labour party that'll stop the tories fucking up the country.



Case in point. Makes me want to knock doors with a load of middle class wankers I can't stand.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's a weird one isn't it, I feel the pull, even though there are many parts of corbyn's politics that I don't like and I think labour are basically cunts, although I would rather have any labour govt than a tory one and I would rather have a Corbyn/labour left govt than any other labour govt. Won't join or canvass though obv.
> 
> I think the dynamic of painting corbyn/labour lefts politics as dangerous, not mostly for the parts that are toxic like the shitty anti imperialism or the wet stuff like being err labour, but for the stuff that we would all welcome like addressing housing inequality, wealth inequality etc, drives it, that's what creates the siege mentality and the pull, but that causes problems - there are people I know now heavily into labour and turning a blind eye to stuff that I know they wouldn't have a few years ago. Funny times.



On a purely bullshit, speculation point - I think fear and a lack of agency play a big part for some. Generationally especially. Don't recall any time in my (adult) life where there even was hope for an alternative of any sort, not even the sort of soft, half-hearted effort Corbyn offers. People a generation up from mine seem to have a lot more lived memory of struggles where there was some hope though, or at least a sense that there was a fight to be had - Miner's Strike, Poll Tax Riots etc. 

Makes something like a slight leftward shift from Labour feel a lot more profound than it really is and the possibility of losing completely with it a lot worse given how bad things have gotten.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Case in point. Makes me want to knock doors with a load of middle class wankers I can't stand.



It really is awful I had to shower six times afterwards and listen to 'Cocaine Socialism' on repeat.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Though I believe that self-described anarchists should be free to do what they want regarding rep.dem....there's a troubling logic that, if they were to engage with the process, voting for the party pledged to remove one layer of (supra) state control might make most sense?



Well, to be fair Johnson's/May's version of Brexit will leave the supra state with plenty of control.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s not something I’d advocate. Voting is one thing, but actually joining an electoral party and canvassing. Nope.



Sign of a deranged mind. We should look into providing mental health support for sufferers.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> This is why nobody takes you seriously. Nationalisation is “far left”. FFS.





killer b said:


> I mean... all the polling on nationalisation for key utilities, rail etc, for years and years on end directly contradicts your claim here.




Tbf it usually is billed as far left, unless it's the conservatives doing it which is merely taking charge until a suitable buyer can be found and to ensure standards are maintained.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Tbf it usually is billed as far left,


so what. it's still a lie.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

YouSir said:


> On a purely bullshit, speculation point - I think fear and a lack of agency play a big part for some. Generationally especially. Don't recall any time in my (adult) life where there even was hope for an alternative of any sort, not even the sort of soft, half-hearted effort Corbyn offers. People a generation up from mine seem to have a lot more lived memory of struggles where there was some hope though, or at least a sense that there was a fight to be had - Miner's Strike, Poll Tax Riots etc.


I've read some chat recently about how Generation X is much less represented in radical political campaigns than the generations either side: I think part of that is due to childcare and suchlike, but there's also got to be another aspect too - that Gen X came up through the eras of blair and TINA technocratic governance and there was no fight for them to join.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've read some chat recently about how Generation X is much less represented in radical political campaigns than the generations either side: I think part of that is due to childcare and suchlike, but there's also got to be another aspect too - that Gen X came up through the eras of blair and TINA technocratic governance and there was no fight for them to join.



I'd definitely agree with that. It's really visible in trade unions - you've got your over 50's and your under 35's and in the middle, a big gap. I do wonder if childcare responsibilities also factor into this but it's definitely a thing. Thatcher's children.


----------



## maomao (Nov 19, 2019)

I'm generation X and I'd be firebombing Downing St right now if it wasn't for the fucking kids.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

(also worth noting that Gen X are the last generation to get their foot on the housing ladder before the ladder was pulled up)


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've read some chat recently about how Generation X is much less represented in radical political campaigns than the generations either side: I think part of that is due to childcare and suchlike, but there's also got to be another aspect too - that Gen X came up through the eras of blair and TINA technocratic governance and there was no fight for them to join.


or that it's just tosh, i can think of lots of people born from say 1963-1977 who are and have been politically active for many years.

no fight during the blair years? i think i missed that email.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

As do I - I'm not sure us knowing some people who go against an observed trend means the trend doesn't exist though.


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

There was plenty of stuff during Gen X's as was for the boomers (one of many reasons why this ok boomer nonsense is illiterate) and probably for the youngsters now.

But "activism" is a young/retired person's game regardless of generation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> As do I - I'm not sure us knowing some people who go against an observed trend means the trend doesn't exist though.


i'm not filled with confidence in the truth of this trend by some unspecified chat as the source


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no fight during the blair years? i think i missed that email.


There was one significant piece of mass political mobilisation, which ended in defeat. Sure there was plenty of actions and activity going on, but all in movements numbering at best in their hundreds. Union membership and mass political participation went through the floor.


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> There was one significant piece of mass political mobilisation, which ended in defeat. Sure there was plenty of actions and activity going on, but all in movements numbering at best in their hundreds. Union membership and mass political participation went through the floor.



Hundreds?

No.

Much, much bigger than that.

Which "specific" are you talking about btw?

I'm thinking dockers, RTS, Iraq, anti-cap, ar, afa, tail end of eco stuff etc etc. Just in the Blair years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> There was one significant piece of mass political mobilisation, which ended in defeat. Sure there was plenty of actions and activity going on, but all in movements numbering at best in their hundreds. Union membership and mass political participation went through the floor.


my experience of the blair years seems to vary greatly from yours, with things like the liverpool dockers attracting widespread support, the anti-globalisation movement of c.1998-c.2005, the latter reclaim the streets events, and of course the anti-war movement. i don't know why you seem to identify union membership with radical political campaigning.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it's a position i have some sympathy with, because for a change the alternatives are make things a bit worse (corbyn) or make them very much worse (johnson).


Aye, me too. I wouldn't dream of slagging off some anarchist for voting Labour and totally get why they would do this. Those former anarchists who have completely thrown in their lot with Project Corbyn and have joined or do legwork for the party come election time, then I'm a bit less forgiving.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Aye, me too. I wouldn't dream of slagging off some anarchist for voting Labour and totally get why they would do this. Those former anarchists who have completely thrown in their lot with Project Corbyn and have joined or do legwork for the party come election time, then I'm a bit less forgiving.



Is it ok if I'm not a former anarchist?


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> Hundreds?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


the specific I was thinking of was the anti-war movement. the other stuff happened sure, but none of it seemed to me to be mass participatory in the same way that the miners strikes or the anti-poll tax stuff and the like were.


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> the specific I was thinking of was the anti-war movement. the other stuff happened sure, but none of it seemed to me to be mass participatory in the same way that the miners strikes or the anti-poll tax stuff and the like were.



No. But the Miners' Strike and the Poll Tax are outliers in terms of mass participation in the last 50 years or so.

Nothing since (post Gen X) has come close to that either.


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is it ok if I'm not a former anarchist?



I'm a former Anarchist if that helps?


----------



## YouSir (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> my experience of the blair years seems to vary greatly from yours, with things like the liverpool dockers attracting widespread support, the anti-globalisation movement of c.1998-c.2005, the latter reclaim the streets events, and of course the anti-war movement. i don't know why you seem to identify union membership with radical political campaigning.



I'm not getting into the Gen X stuff but then I'm from the generation after - so my initial post was more about that. My first, teenaged political activity came with the anti-War protests- which we resoundingly lost despite mass support. After that we had odd bits like the student protests or Occupy. Neither of which felt like fights that could be won and both of which were a lot more marginal than the anti-War stuff. The defining factor throughout though, ime, has been the 'Left' being mostly ignored except by minor and often (not always) shitty little groups like the SWP.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> No. But the Miners' Strike and the Poll Tax are outliers in terms of mass participation in the last 50 years or so.
> 
> Nothing since (post Gen X) has come close to that either.


the nearest thing has been the 2011 riots


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

YouSir said:


> I'm not getting into the Gen X stuff but then I'm from the generation after - so my initial post was more about that. My first, teenaged political activity came with the anti-War protests- which we resoundingly lost despite mass support. After that we had odd bits like the student protests or Occupy. Neither of which felt like fights that could be won and both of which were a lot more marginal than the anti-War stuff. The defining factor throughout though, ime, has been the 'Left' being mostly ignored except by minor and often (not always) shitty little groups like the SWP.


the argument resoundingly won, the war however went ahead. and from that stems so many of our current ills.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the argument resoundingly won, the war however went ahead. and from that stems so many of our current ills.



Aye, meaningless victory though.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is it ok if I'm not a former anarchist?


This is getting confusing.  If you’re someone who wants to campaign for Labour, that’s perfectly permissible whether you’re a former anarchist or not.  What I’d caution against is expecting too much of it, and I’ve added that it’s not something I’d do.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 19, 2019)

Just checked out who's standing in my constituency.  Disappointed to report there are no independents standing.  I do love a random nutty independent standing on some hyper-local issue.

Next constituency along there are a couple of independents.  One seems over exercised about building new houses, as in she doesn't want new house built.  I can't find any info on the other guy which is promising from the lulz perspective.

We do quite randomly have a Brexit Party candidate.  In theory this is a 2 way shootout between the tories and lib dems so theoretically this could be the sort of situation where BP can damage the tories.  That being said I'll be surprised if the BP guy gets his deposit back.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

I’m Generation X and so’s my wife.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 19, 2019)

It would be unlike this website to get bogged down in minutiae of labels applied to political positions.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 19, 2019)

All generational stuff is bollocks. Stuff about this generation having/not having ladder pulled up is bollocks. Applying class analysis on a generational basis is bollocks. You cannot extrapolate how some from a generation did against others. There are plenty of poor pensioners, poor boomers, poor generation x's, people who didn't benefit, there are plenty of millennials and generation z's who are doing just fine even if they are pissing all their money away on avacado on toast festivals and nitrous oxide or whatever shite people come out with.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

Gen Z?

Whatever happened ot the Ys?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Gen Z?
> 
> Whatever happened ot the Ys?


That's millennials isn't it. Tbh I don't really know


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> That's millennials isn't it. Tbh I don't really know


I have no idea. Which is probably typical of my generation...


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> All generational stuff is bollocks.


True. Unless it’s about how my generation have had it worse and everything is the fault of older and younger people.  The pricks.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 19, 2019)

I blame the who. Boomer fucks.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 19, 2019)

I don’t know that I agree it’s “all bollocks”.  People are heavily affected by the prevailing social forces, and those have some similarity of action across cohorts born into the same era.  Clearly, any kind of oversimplification would be inappropriate— you still need to understand those forces in the other contexts they exist within for different groups of people.  And any generalisations anyway will not be entirely true for anybody and will be completely false for some others, which limits the use of the generalisation.  But that’s not the same thing as it being “all bollocks”


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I blame the who. Boomer fucks.


Yeah. Boomer cocks. 

And whatever it is Millenials are supposed to listen to. Dicks.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 19, 2019)

I don't think generational stuff effects the nature of the problems people face, as was said - people of all ages suffer all sorts of shit. Definitely effects the way people approach them though. Communities change, culture changes - people pretending that it's all always the same as in their day is pointless.

And on a side note - my generation didn't even get a name until people started getting pissy about the generation after and decided to lump us all in as millenials.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

YouSir said:


> my generation didn't even get a name until


Boo hoo. Tell that to your Insta account. You invented the Kardashians.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Boo hoo. Tell that to your Insta account. You invented the Kardashians.



OK Boomer.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 19, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> I do love a random nutty independent standing on some hyper-local issue.



I have fond memories from 1992 of Chris Peat from Altern-8 standing in Stafford for the Altern8ive hardcore party and promising techno on every street corner.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

YouSir said:


> OK Boomer.


You’ll take that back! I’m a Generation Xer and proud! I didn’t put up with the test card for nothing. You young people will never understand Space Hoppers and proper clackers!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

YouSir said:


> I don't think generational stuff effects the nature of the problems people face, as was said - people of all ages suffer all sorts of shit. Definitely effects the way people approach them though. Communities change, culture changes - people pretending that it's all always the same as in their day is pointless.
> 
> And on a side note - my generation didn't even get a name until people started getting pissy about the generation after and decided to lump us all in as millenials.


There are definitely certain patterns to do with particular things. 

eg housing - in the 70s, a man (and it was nearly always a man - another aspect of the time) with a skilled job in, say, a car factory, could have an expectation to marry and have kids and buy a house on his wage. His wife could have an expectation to stop working for a few years when she got married. That generation has now paid off its mortgage, while their children in equivalent jobs are priced out of housing even with two wages. That's mirrored in social housing - as late as the 80s, there was an expectation to be able to put your name down for a council house and get one a few years later. Again, an idea and expectation that has disappeared entirely.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 19, 2019)

I'm on the cusp of boomer/generation X, it's a bit confusing - I'll stick to membership of X as we get less blame than the boomers


----------



## kabbes (Nov 19, 2019)

Gen X started and finished later in the U.K. than the US, for added confusion.  Different effects of the war on the population.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 19, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is it ok if I'm not a former anarchist?


Fill yer boots.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are definitely certain patterns to do with particular things.
> 
> eg housing - in the 70s, a man (and it was nearly always a man - another aspect of the time) with a skilled job in, say, a car factory, could have an expectation to marry and have kids and buy a house on his wage. His wife could have an expectation to stop working for a few years when she got married. That generation has now paid off its mortgage, while their children in equivalent jobs are priced out of housing even with two wages. That's mirrored in social housing - as late as the 80s, there was an expectation to be able to put your name down for a council house and get one a few years later. Again, an idea and expectation that has disappeared entirely.


my parent's bought their first house in 1975 , my dad was on a good wage 'on the buildings' but tbh , it was mostly organised by my mum who had multiple jobs in care/cleaning/taking in washing, etc - his good income often went to local landlords and bookies   I think their first house was about £7k which bought them a 4 bed in a nice-ish area of Bath (Larkhall). I managed to buy 22 years later in Hackney when property prices were very affordable. If I was looking to buy my first home now in London , I wouldn't, I'd move outside tbh.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 19, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Gen X started and finished later in the U.K. than the US, for added confusion.  Different effects of the war on the population.


so 1965 in the UK is boomer or generation x?


----------



## kabbes (Nov 19, 2019)

marty21 said:


> so 1965 in the UK is boomer or generation x?


I’d personally say boomer because I don’t see that you could realistically be the child of a boomer but I agree it’s right on the cusp.  In the US it would be Gen X for sure — they view Gen X as starting some time in the early 60s and finishing by the mid 70s


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

marty21 said:


> so 1965 in the UK is boomer or generation x?


Don’t listen to him: he’s a Millenial!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

marty21 said:


> my parent's bought their first house in 1975 , my dad was on a good wage 'on the buildings' but tbh , it was mostly organised by my mum who had multiple jobs in care/cleaning/taking in washing, etc - his good income often went to local landlords and bookies   I think their first house was about £7k which bought them a 4 bed in a nice-ish area of Bath (Larkhall). I managed to buy 22 years later in Hackney when property prices were very affordable. If I was looking to buy my first home now in London , I wouldn't, I'd move outside tbh.


The flip side of that is that young people today have more of an expectation to do stuff like eating out (a real luxury thing to do when you and I were growing up), foreign holidays (ditto), etc. Which is good! 

In London, housing went wrong very quickly. Mate of mine bought a two-bed flat in Hackney in the late-90s for £60k. We had no idea what was coming. I think London was generally a kinder, easier place to live in then, but again that's no doubt partly me getting old.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> This is getting confusing.  If you’re someone who wants to campaign for Labour, that’s perfectly permissible whether you’re a former anarchist or not.  What I’d caution against is expecting too much of it, and I’ve added that it’s not something I’d do.



I'm not expecting too much don't worry


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

kabbes said:


> In the US it would be Gen X for sure — they view Gen X as starting some time in the early 60s and finishing by the mid 70s


 except they don't

Generation X - Wikipedia

it's another of your tobyjug facts


----------



## marty21 (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Don’t listen to him: he’s a Millenial!


never trust a millennial, danny


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

marty21 said:


> never trust a millennial, danny


Never trust anything if you can’t tell how many Ns it should have!

(That’s @ me. I’ve no idea).


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2019)

The definitions have actually changed over the years - "millennial" was only invented relatively recently, and for a long time I was arguably Gen Y rather than Gen X. Now I'm (tail-end) Gen X which isn't an insult yet but probably should be.

It is of course all marketing bullshit, created by and believed in by men in boardrooms who tuck their shirts into their chinos and love their iPads.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

I tuck my shirt into my chinos. Are you supposed to just let it flap?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> I tuck my shirt into my chinos. Are you supposed to just let it flap?



Yes.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> I tuck my shirt into my chinos. Are you supposed to just let it flap?


When you’re 41? No, you tuck it in.

So we can judge you.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> I tuck my shirt into my chinos. Are you supposed to just let it flap?



Just ask one of the other old men at the garden centre you're presumably posting from.


----------



## andysays (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> I tuck my shirt into my chinos. Are you supposed to just let it flap?




But more to the point, WTF has happened to this thread


----------



## teuchter (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> When you’re 41? No, you tuck it in.
> 
> So we can judge you.


First sensible thing anyone's written on this thread in ages.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

I reckon someone having an opinion on chinos is an easy way to tell what generation they're from


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> I reckon someone having an opinion on chinos is an easy way to tell what generation they're from


depends what the opinion is


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

Yes that's right


----------



## teuchter (Nov 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> depends what the opinion is


What's your opinion?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

teuchter said:


> What's your opinion?


you're a twat


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

andysays said:


> View attachment 190392
> 
> But more to the point, WTF has happened to this thread


You’ve given away your generation.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

Let's just accept that everone here but me is old and move on.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Let's just accept that everone here but me is old and move on.


But nobody is the right sort of old. Except me.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> But nobody is the right sort of old. Except me.



OK boomer.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

Quiet election day?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> OK boomer.


How many times?! 
I can’t hypnotise dogs! I’m Generation X!


----------



## JimW (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> ...
> I can’t hypnotise dogs! I’m Generation X!


Having the powers of Dr X doesn't put you in that generation.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Nov 19, 2019)

I was born in '81 which apparently means I'm a Xennial


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

JimW said:


> Having the powers of Dr X doesn't put you in that generation.


The important thing is, do you remember Lager and Lime Top Deck. 

And having a class analysis.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

So when was Y? And why aren't they getting blamed for anything?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I was born in '81 which apparently means I'm a Xennial


Your people don’t even have a proper name! Losers!


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So when was Y? And why aren't they getting blamed for anything?


Aren’t they what we call Millennials now?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Aren’t they what we call Millennials now?


Don't ask me. I've only just found out that millenial _doesn't mean _someone born after 2000.


----------



## flypanam (Nov 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't ask me. I've only just found out that millenial _doesn't mean _someone born after 2000.


2002 isn't it?

It's the Zoomers you gotta watch out for...


----------



## strung out (Nov 19, 2019)

flypanam said:


> 2002 isn't it?
> 
> It's the Zoomers you gotta watch out for...


Millennials were born from the early 80s onwards.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

flypanam said:


> 2002 isn't it. It's the Zoomers you gotta whatch out for...


Hit 18 in 2000 or later, I have been told.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So when was Y? And why aren't they getting blamed for anything?



Generation Z is the kids of millennials I think. We appear to have skipped Y.

And the reason generation Z isn't getting blamed for anything is that they're barely sentient. They're basically just external xbox peripherals.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'm a former Anarchist if that helps?


I'm not but I did once buy a sex pistols CD if that counts?


----------



## belboid (Nov 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Generation Z is the kids of millennials I think. We appear to have skipped Y.
> 
> And the reason generation Z isn't getting blamed for anything is that they're barely sentient. They're basically just external xbox peripherals.


Millenials are Y. Renamed so that they couldn't just moan 'y bother'


----------



## Sue (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The important thing is, do you remember Lager and Lime Top Deck.
> 
> And having a class analysis.



In P5, someone brought a can to our summer trip. The Head confiscated it, what with it being super alcoholic and all.  

Those of us with Fine Fare own brand cola were fine.

Top Deck and a class analysis  in one anecdote.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 19, 2019)

kabbes said:


> I don’t know that I agree it’s “all bollocks”.  People are heavily affected by the prevailing social forces, and those have some similarity of action across cohorts born into the same era.  Clearly, any kind of oversimplification would be inappropriate— you still need to understand those forces in the other contexts they exist within for different groups of people.  And any generalisations anyway will not be entirely true for anybody and will be completely false for some others, which limits the use of the generalisation.  But that’s not the same thing as it being “all bollocks”


Yeah all of this is fair. It's probably not all bollocks but the recent fad for applying crude generational analysis on everything does my tits in


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

All our analyses are pretty crude on here tbf.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 19, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> I was born in '81 which apparently means I'm a Xennial


Fucking hell, it's only a couple of years since I found out I was a millennial, now I'm a sub category


----------



## elbows (Nov 19, 2019)

Of the numerous flaws with generational stuff, I suppose I naturally focus on one that I can judge in the context of myself.

Some of these generation timescales are just too long, and they are sometimes a very poor fit for events and periods of notable change.

So I'm generation X but born in 1975. So I was a kid throughout the 1980's. I was still in school when Thatcher went. I could not directly suffer 1980s unemployment (though could of indirectly via parents). Home computers were going mainstream by the time I was 7 or 8. Thats quite a bit of a different world and timing of things and how I related to them than I would have faced if I'd been born 10 years earlier. I did GCSEs not O levels. Channel four was with me

Plus cultural and political influences change over the course of one of these generations. A lot of the cultural icons of the boomers werent boomers themselves, and gaps often even larger when it comes to politicians and political influences. Some crap joke here about the youth being told not to trust people over 30, invariably by people over 30.

Anyway I've certainly started to notice people much closer to my age that the broader gen x definition, have been reaching the giddy heights of power in recent years. Not just in politics, but in the various professions such as journalism. In most cases I have not be impressed. And it is tempting to have simple thoughts along generational lines about this, no doubt involving plenty of self-generational-loathing, but this sounds like a crap recipe. Better to consider the reasons why certain candidates are deemed to be the right person for the job, how unsuitable that makes them to actually do the task in a decent fashion. What lessons of success and priority they have been taught by the systems they have climbed within. What powerful illusions it proved expedient for them to buy into, and whether that leaves them naked to the gaze of those who have viewed the grubby state of affairs from very different angles. Some have different viewing angles because of their age, but we all know the multitude of other factors that shitty generational labels dont begin to cover.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 19, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Anarchists for Corbyn is not a contradictory position... It's a strategic and  realpolitik one. Have recently heard the case made made in different ways by Erik Wright and  Chomsky though intellectuals aside  it's pretty obvious as to why


Wright was not an anarchist, in fact as he was explicitly opposed to revolutionary socialism his politics is at odds with anarchism (at least the overwhelming part of it). And frankly based on his last book his conception of anarchism was piss weak.



ska invita said:


> -people want to end 50 straight years of neoliberalist government in the UK, and aren't exactly looking forward to the impact of a Boris Brexit and the rest of the Tory program
> 
> -they want to improve their own lot and that of the rest of the working class
> 
> ...


This is the equivalent reasoning as why you (as a socialist?) voted for the LDs in 2010 isn't it?
From the above I'm not sure your understanding of anarchism is much better than Wrights. The idea that anarchist ideas have had a big role to play in the LP, one of the two establishment parties of the UK, is fantasy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Anarchists for Corbyn is not a contradictory position... It's a strategic and  realpolitik one. Have recently heard the case made made in different ways by Erik Wright and  Chomsky though intellectuals aside  it's pretty obvious as to why
> 
> -people want to end 50 straight years of neoliberalist government in the UK, and aren't exactly looking forward to the impact of a Boris Brexit and the rest of the Tory program
> 
> ...


Were Heath, Wilson and Callaghan neoliberals?


----------



## mauvais (Nov 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Generation Z is the kids of millennials I think. We appear to have skipped Y.


Not the kids of millennials, although it's possible. Kids of Gen X, starting with people born in the mid-90s.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 19, 2019)

Advance the class struggle by any means necessary. At present a vote for labour does this. Prancing about with cheap banners gets us nowhere.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 19, 2019)

I find the whole Labour support thing fascinating, independently of what I personally think about it.

If you took a very Machiavellian and distinctly non-parliamentary approach to class struggle, then you've got some interesting questions to answer.

Would a Labour Party success at best placate the people and therefore further delay more meaningful change? Conversely, would a Tory win hasten a dramatic collapse of existing systems and therefore be a long term positive?

But simultaneously if the people can't even be convinced that Labour's if-you-prefer-a-milder-reform is necessary and positive even at this late juncture, then you've also got to address or recognise that the political landscape is really not aligned to whatever you're banging on about. Maybe you can explain that away as being a facet of the current system rather than true expression of goals but it's not the easiest of sells.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 19, 2019)

Good to see the old imputations of immiseration being wheeled out.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

Save yourself an hour of tedious telly...here's the #libdembarchart showing who won tonight's debate:


----------



## binka (Nov 19, 2019)

Ring walk in 2 minutes


----------



## chilango (Nov 19, 2019)

If it gets physical let me know. Otherwise I'm not bothering this time.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Just checked out who's standing in my constituency.  Disappointed to report there are no independents standing.  I do love a random nutty independent standing on some hyper-local issue.
> 
> Next constituency along there are a couple of independents.  One seems over exercised about building new houses, as in she doesn't want new house built.  I can't find any info on the other guy which is promising from the lulz perspective.
> 
> We do quite randomly have a Brexit Party candidate.  In theory this is a 2 way shootout between the tories and lib dems so theoretically this could be the sort of situation where BP can damage the tories.  That being said I'll be surprised if the BP guy gets his deposit back.



Not much choice here either. Tory, lib dem, green, brexit, labour or CUK.

Some grumbling in the local labour party about the all women, all BAME shortlist which has apparently robbed the heir apparent to Chris Leslie's seat who, while female, is also white. The candidate they have picked seems promising though. She's local unlike the parachuted-in Leslie, working class and unlike other candidates for the nomination is untainted by association with the foul city council. She also says she'll only claim 35 grand of her MP's salary.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Nov 19, 2019)

Corbyn off to a convincing start at least......Boris attacking from the off


----------



## binka (Nov 19, 2019)

chilango said:


> If it gets physical let me know. Otherwise I'm not bothering this time.


It's a really flash studio, itv pulled out all the stops here


----------



## neonwilderness (Nov 19, 2019)

binka said:


> It's a really flash studio, itv pulled out all the stops here


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

I like the fact that Corbyn's specs are all on the piss...just like mine.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 19, 2019)

binka said:


> It's a really flash studio, itv pulled out all the stops here


It's hired. Didn't even have an ITV logo on it earlier.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 19, 2019)

Corbyn starts of rather woodenly. Warming up now.


----------



## elbows (Nov 19, 2019)

Boris 'Two Ditches' Johnson.

Coin mint piss take, didnt realise this program would have a comedy aspect from the host.


----------



## oryx (Nov 19, 2019)

OH and I playing Boris* Bingo - we've already had 'get Brexit done' and 'oven ready deal'.

* I hate referring to the c*nt by his first name but it alliterates better.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2019)

CCHQ is now "factcheckUK"


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 19, 2019)

Oven fresh brexit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

Host woman is getting her digs in here.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2019)

"dither and delay"


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Nov 19, 2019)

Boris talks such shit but like the use of the word lacuna.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 19, 2019)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Corbyn off to a convincing start at least......Boris attacking from the off



His only tactic is Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.

Plenty will lap it up but I do hope Corbyn does well and sells people an actual future to look toward.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

Johnson already looking riled. Doesn't take much with him.


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 19, 2019)

It's so much bigger than Brexit. Corbyn really needs to push it home. He should come out on top over the NHS.


----------



## D'wards (Nov 19, 2019)




----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 19, 2019)

How can we trust you? 

What a shit question.


----------



## Supine (Nov 19, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> How can we trust you?
> 
> What a shit question.



His answer is just lie lie lie. Talk about doubling down.


----------



## oryx (Nov 19, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> How can we trust you?
> 
> What a shit question.


Even shitter answer from Johnson - 'Get brexit done'!


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 19, 2019)

Johnson looks close to hulking out.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

Johnson
_Look at what I've said I'd do and look at what I've done...

_


----------



## D'wards (Nov 19, 2019)

Whenever Corbyn is asked about Anti-semitism he always broadens it out to racism in general


----------



## oryx (Nov 19, 2019)

Etchingham simply failed to probe Johnson properly on that last question.


----------



## elbows (Nov 19, 2019)

Oh that ITV attempt to get a pledge out of them was painful.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

elbows said:


> Oh that ITV attempt to get a pledge out of them was painful.


and they fucked up the camera angle...all we saw was trouser & arse; fail all round


----------



## xenon (Nov 19, 2019)

Oh shut up about Brexit you cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

Johnson didn't want to fall into the 'dementia tax' trap


----------



## xenon (Nov 19, 2019)

Jesus fucking Christ.  We are great because I didn’t give the corporation tax cut. Brexit. Brexit.


----------



## Supine (Nov 19, 2019)

Corbyn should actually attack directly. This is not the time for calm nuanced discussion.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2019)

Can't watch any more of this drivel.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

Supine said:


> Corbyn should actually attack directly. This is not the time for calm nuanced discussion.


are you watching?


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 19, 2019)

Will you defend an alleged pedophile?


----------



## SE25 (Nov 19, 2019)

How anyone could vote for this Tory cunt


----------



## xenon (Nov 19, 2019)

Cretins in the audience. Too many.


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 19, 2019)

xenon said:


> Cretins in the audience. Too many.



What were they saying during the climate bit?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

blustercunt is coming across as monomaniacal as maybot


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

The itv 'Blind date' bit...what pressie would you give... FFS


----------



## xenon (Nov 19, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> What were they saying during the climate bit?



 Just sort of jeering at Corbin  saying come on. This was in response to him saying climate change biggest issues facing the world, people suffering elsewhere unusual weather patterns rain here.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> are you watching?


No. Has either of them denied sweating?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

jeering the cunt


----------



## binka (Nov 19, 2019)

Corbyn came across as being much better at thinking on his feet than Johnson


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The itv 'Blind date' bit...what pressie would you give... FFS


Johnson would hand her a superinjunction at the end of the date


----------



## binka (Nov 19, 2019)

Well I think we learned nothing


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 19, 2019)

Corbyn wins on points with a Christmas Carol.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

Liked the split screen bit when they asked _what foreign leader do you most admire _when Corbyn was caught looking a bit 'eek' trying to think of one that wasn't a "commie"


----------



## andysays (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> No. Has either of them denied sweating?


Apparently they're both going for a pizza in Woking later


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 19, 2019)

Don't think Johnson will be volunteering for another one of them


----------



## binka (Nov 19, 2019)

Disappointed we didn't have 15 minutes of Corbyn refusing to say he'd nuke anyone


----------



## D'wards (Nov 19, 2019)

binka said:


> Well I think we learned nothing


Was just coming in to post exactly that. 

Was entirely pointless


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2019)

Making them shake hands. Then the Xmas present nonsense. FFS, sometimes I think humanity deserves to fucking die out.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Don't think Johnson will be volunteering for another one of them


He certainly can make people laugh...though not with him.


----------



## elbows (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The itv 'Blind date' bit...what pressie would you give... FFS



Yeah, a cheesy gimmick just like the earlier pledge shit.

Oh ITV, there was much snobbery about you when you came along. Much of it was unfair and revealed something of the classes operating the beeb beeb ceeb. But its not like ITV was authentically run by people of a different class who were magically aligned with the multitude, and so it had its own ways to patronise its audience and talk down to them at times. I get the sense that some of this lives on, even if only via glimpses of the cheese that still runs through its veins, a cheap gimmick here, a botched stunt there.


----------



## Kuke (Nov 19, 2019)

Johnson saying the royal family is "beyond reproach" after randy Andy's interview was deffo the biggest fuck up of the debate. You coukd hear the tory audience members auto clapping then slowing down as they processed what he'd actually said.


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Liked the split screen bit when they asked _what foreign leader do you most admire _when Corbyn was caught looking a bit 'eek' trying to think of one that wasn't a "commie"



Yeah noticed that bit!


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2019)

Kuke said:


> Johnson saying the royal family is "beyond reproach" after randy Andy's interview was deffo the biggest fuck up of the debate. You coukd hear the tory audience members auto clapping then slowing down as they processed what he'd actually said.



Thought Corbyn's reply to that question was quick and funny though.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 19, 2019)

Thought Corbyn did ok...but missed opportunity to bury Johnson on the personal integrity  question? He is a serial liar and worse, just name him. 

Cheer  - Louis MacNeice


----------



## elbows (Nov 19, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Yeah noticed that bit!



Luckily the ghost of Tony Benn was on hand to remind him of the United Nations.


----------



## alsoknownas (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Liked the split screen bit when they asked _what foreign leader do you most admire _when Corbyn was caught looking a bit 'eek' trying to think of one that wasn't a "commie"


Yeah I noticed that too .

Over all I thought he, quietly, smashed it though.


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I find the whole Labour support thing fascinating, independently of what I personally think about it.
> 
> If you took a very Machiavellian and distinctly non-parliamentary approach to class struggle, then you've got some interesting questions to answer.
> 
> ...



Immiseration never really works in the west, ask the RCP


----------



## Duncan2 (Nov 19, 2019)

blustercunt won't be happy with that performance.Broken record doesn't cover it.It is quite frightening to think that he could get a majority and actually start making his things happen.


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2019)

> "Leaving aside your own party preference, who do you think performed best overall in tonight’s debate?"
> 
> Boris Johnson - 51%
> Jeremy Corbyn - 49%
> ...




guardian, snapyougov(its always them) saying Johnson wins, just, ffs.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 19, 2019)

andysays said:


> Apparently they're both going for a pizza in Woking later


And I am sure it will be so memorable they will still remember it in another 18 years


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2019)

haven't seen it, but was JC heckled when he alluded to poor people in poorer countries,?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 19, 2019)

The monarchy is beyond reproach ffs


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 19, 2019)

treelover said:


> guardian, snapyougov(its always them) saying Johnson wins, just, ffs.



Better for Corbyn than I'd expect tbh, TV debates rarely change anyone's mind because they get played through the preconception filter, and live broadcast telly audiences skew older.


----------



## alsoknownas (Nov 19, 2019)

treelover said:


> guardian, snapyougov(its always them) saying Johnson wins, just, ffs.


I think you have to filter that through the prism of Johnson having a much higher popularity rating going into the debate.  Allowing for pre-existing bias, that's probably a very good tilt for Corbyn I would have thought.


----------



## neonwilderness (Nov 19, 2019)

andysays said:


> Apparently they're both going for a pizza in Woking later


Then Boris will be sweating in Tramp


----------



## agricola (Nov 19, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Liked the split screen bit when they asked _what foreign leader do you most admire _when Corbyn was caught looking a bit 'eek' trying to think of one that wasn't a "commie"



Would anyone of thought ill of him if he had said "Marshal Zhukov", though?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 19, 2019)

Boris' Christmas present to Corbyn, a copy of his Brexit deal. Miserly cunt.


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2019)

Revealing how Lib Dem messaging is so exactly aligned with Tory messaging post debate.


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2019)

> I watched the debate with someone who hasn't had a good word to say about Corbyn before and who expressed anger before now that he would be the reason we would get a Johnson government after the election. He is now delighted that Corbyn performed so much better than De Pfeffel Johnson, albeit surprised after believing so much propaganda beforehand. If people like that believe Corbyn came out as the more credible prospective PM, that's what counts.



CIF, straws in the wind?


----------



## Tooter (Nov 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> CCHQ is now "factcheckUK"
> 
> View attachment 190427



 Lily Allen quick off the mark on the rebrand


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 19, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> Then Boris will be sweating in Tramp



He'll be sweating like Trump


----------



## binka (Nov 19, 2019)

agricola said:


> Would anyone of thought ill of him if he had said "Marshal Zhukov", though?


He should have said Maduro for a laugh


----------



## xenon (Nov 19, 2019)

treelover said:


> haven't seen it, but was JC heckled when he alluded to poor people in poorer countries,?


It was in response to a question about climate change. He said it's the biggest issue facing the world. People abroad suffering, eratic weather... Was going on to talk about the rain here and sort of geering, harrumphing, comments of "come on" cut across.


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2019)

You gov poll, drill down, Corbyn more likeable, more in touch than Johnson!


----------



## Tooter (Nov 19, 2019)

I'm quite surprised Corbyn let him off on the 'labour ruined the economy' line when the information is widely available that national debt has skyrocketed under the Tories.  It's quite clear neither government is managing to get a grip of the economy or national debt. 

Also irritating how many times the SNP and Sturgeon were mentioned, would have been good to maybe have the third largest political party in the UK present. I'm sure they would have had a few things to say.


----------



## killer b (Nov 19, 2019)

Tooter said:


> neither government is managing to get a grip of the economy or national debt.


there hasn't been a Labour government to get a grip of the economy or national debt for almost 10 years tbf.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 19, 2019)

Honestly, the whole thing was a complete waste of time, even if a waste of a couple of hours on a dull Tuesday evening is reasonable. But I could have read a book or at least watched some Netflix.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 19, 2019)

Well that was fucking turgid and, as someone else posted, toe curlingly bad when they were asked to ‘look at each other and shake hands’ Ugh 

definite points win for jezza and his bizarrely wonky bins, but no game changers


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Honestly, the whole thing was a complete waste of time, even if a waste of a couple of hours on a dull Tuesday evening is reasonable. But I could have read a book or at least watched some Netflix.


I went to the library and heard a crime fiction writer I’ve never read drop names I’ve mostly never heard of. It was much better than I imagine the debate was.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Honestly, the whole thing was a complete waste of time, even if a waste of a couple of hours on a dull Tuesday evening is reasonable. But I could have read a book or at least watched some Netflix.


Masterchef was excellent.


----------



## 8115 (Nov 19, 2019)

Can you watch the debate on catchup? I can't find it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 19, 2019)

8115 said:


> Can you watch the debate on catchup? I can't find it.


It was ITV, so it’ll be your ITV region’s catch up service I’d guess. (I find the STV one murder to use, so I don’t).


----------



## Tooter (Nov 19, 2019)




----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I went to the library and heard a crime fiction writer I’ve never read drop names I’ve mostly never heard of. It was much better than I imagine the debate was.


This evening I have had a violently unpleasant shit and caught the last 10 minutes of the debate. The shit was the highlight of the night.


----------



## 8115 (Nov 19, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It was ITV, so it’ll be your ITV region’s catch up service I’d guess. (I find the STV one murder to use, so I don’t).


It's ok, Newsnight are ripping through the highlights.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 19, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> This evening I have had a violently unpleasant shit.
> 
> The shit was the highlight of the night.



What a time to be alive.


----------



## D'wards (Nov 19, 2019)

They asked Nigel Farage what he personally did to help climate change - he basically said "fuck all - i drive and fly all the time".

The man is a nobhead, but are least he didnt try and style it out like you know the main two would have done


----------



## imposs1904 (Nov 19, 2019)

Tooter said:


>



Has Tommy Corbyn and Elijah Wood ever been in the same room at the same time?


----------



## krink (Nov 19, 2019)

I'm not a Corbyn fanboi at all but fuck me, he battered Johnson tonight. What got me really wound up was when some people were booing and moaning when Corbyn mentioned poor people - I wish we could've seen their faces and tracked the cunts down.


----------



## 2hats (Nov 19, 2019)

oryx said:


> OH and I playing Boris* Bingo - ... it alliterates better.


Boris Brexit Bullshit Bingo.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 19, 2019)

D'wards said:


> They asked Nigel Farage what he personally did to help climate change - he basically said "fuck all - i drive and fly all the time".
> 
> The man is a nobhead, but are least he didnt try and style it out like you know the main two would have done


A cunt's cunt.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 20, 2019)

Parliamentary politics is a sham if the leader of the opposition is given constant unfavourable press by billionaire owned propaganda outlets. The BBC is failing also. 'Unnamed sources said this' etc. The talking points are set by billionaire interests and the BBC follow suit. Careerism is rife. It's not partisanship, I really do think these things need to be spoken about by Labour. Call it out, tell people the truth. There is too much at stake to be scammed like this.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> It really is awful I had to shower six times afterwards and listen to 'Cocaine Socialism' on repeat.



Why not sensible socialism?
There's fuck all point pushing nationalization and other far left stuff when there's zero chance of getting elected because of it.
Try realism that can get elected, then do as much as possible for as many people as possible. An elected Labour government can ensure social welfare is revitalized and stop tory shit happening, but a far left opposition party with no power can do shit all.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Oh, and the climate crisis - a Labour government could push renewables and anti-pollution legislation, but the tories are more than likely to push profits for their mates.
Labour can't do shit as a weak opposition party.

Fuck the tories over by making Labour electable.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 20, 2019)

There's an election on you tit.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Yes, and the polls are telling us Labour has fucked up and the same old far left shit has buggered up the chances of sensible government.
This election MUST be a lesson learnt, one that previous fuckups should have been enough to do but people were too deaf and stupid to take note of.
Are the far left going to keep getting the fucking tories elected, or are they going to grow a brain?


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp I don't like Corbyn and can't stand the Labour Party but you sir are a cunt.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

There's still time for an upset and a chance the tories will get kicked out, but it's looking bloody bad at the moment.
The manifesto is going to be a big deal, and the indications for that aren't looking good.
Nationalisation is a dirty word for a lot of people who remember the messes of old, labour is being depicted as copying tory NHS spending plans, and the tories scrapping tampon tax is a snappy vote winner, a simple sort of tactic labour isn't engaging in.
Yes, I know it's just a blatant attempt at vote winning, but it's working, and that's the point.
If this election is to be won, and that's going to be tough now, a change of direction is needed immediately.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> Don Troooomp I don't like Corbyn and can't stand the Labour Party but you sir are a cunt.



I don't like Corbyn because he's a useless cunt that's dragging the labour party down, but I do like Labour and want them to form the new government.

I might very well be a cunt, but that's better than being a tory cunt.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 20, 2019)

Rail Nationalisation is backed by something like 70% of people if you look at polling. They should be shouting about it, not cowering. Fuck off with this being some sort of ‘far left’ extremist nonsense, people want to take back control. Most other European countries still have nationalised systems, it’s not some soviet fantasy.


----------



## maomao (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> There's fuck all point pushing nationalization and other far left stuff when there's zero chance of getting elected because of it.



Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov

Given latest polls suggest most of the country is 'far left' by your definition shall we all just fuck work off today and get on with the revolution?

It's not that you're a cunt Troomp, though you probably are, it's that you're an idiot. People aren't objecting to your posts because they disagree with them, it's because you're foolish and annoying. You've consistently failed to engage when posters have bothered responding to you and when you've tried you've misrepresented their positions. But mostly you just keep repeating the same dumb rants. You haven't a clue what you're talking about and you're boring to boot. Just stop it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

'sensible socialism'


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 20, 2019)

I'd want insensible socialism  and a *much* more hard-core Labour manifesto but 'sensible' will have to do for now


----------



## mauvais (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I don't like Corbyn because he's a useless cunt that's dragging the labour party down, but I do like Labour and want them to form the new government.


Bollocks. You don't like Labour, because this is what Labour is.


----------



## tim (Nov 20, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Rail Nationalisation is backed by something like 70% of people if you look at polling. They should be shouting about it, not cowering. Fuck off with this being some sort of ‘far left’ extremist nonsense, people want to take back control. Most other European countries still have nationalised systems, it’s not some soviet fantasy.



Nationalised rail systems that have won the contracts to run half the railway franchises in the UK.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 20, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Bollocks. You don't like Labour, because this is what Labour is.


Is it? Then why did it spend so many years arguing in favour of the private sector, why are it's councils currently attacking workers, why are so many of its MPs, councillors and party members in favour of tacking right? Are Watson, Creasy, Cooper, Benn etc not Labour? 

DT is a moronic berk but the idea that Labour is the politics of Corbyn/McDonnell is as one dimensional as the idea that Labour was the politics of Blair/Brown. There has always been a very large strand of the LP that views "managing" capitalism as the aim.


----------



## DownwardDog (Nov 20, 2019)

Corbyn should have legalisation of recreational cannabis in the manifesto. It would be an 18-25 voter turnout machine.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I don't like Corbyn because he's a useless cunt that's dragging the labour party down, but I do like Labour and want them to form the new government.
> 
> I might very well be a cunt, but that's better than being a tory cunt.


No you don't like Labour you mendacious piece of shit. The second you stopped getting your own way you left like the rat you are.

You also don't know what the fuck you're on about, nationalisation is not 'far left' and if you'd taken a moment to look at the polling rather than just thinking whatever the papers tell you to think you'd see that it's actually incredibly popular.

You thick twat.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 20, 2019)

maomao said:


> It's not that you're a cunt Troomp, though you probably are, it's that you're an idiot. People aren't objecting to your posts because they disagree with them, it's because you're foolish and annoying. You've consistently failed to engage when posters have bothered responding to you and when you've tried you've misrepresented their positions. But mostly you just keep repeating the same dumb rants. You haven't a clue what you're talking about and you're boring to boot. Just stop it.


Nothing to add— it just bears repetition.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Fuck the tories over by making Labour electable.



And you do that by abandoning policies like nationalisation (for which polling shows consistent majority support, even among tory voters in the case of the railways) and going back to the tory lite politics that saw Miliband and Brown poll so well? 

Realism eh?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 20, 2019)

maomao said:


> Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov
> 
> Given latest polls suggest most of the country is 'far left' by your definition shall we all just fuck work off today and get on with the revolution?
> 
> It's not that you're a cunt Troomp, though you probably are, it's that you're an idiot. People aren't objecting to your posts because they disagree with them, it's because you're foolish and annoying. You've consistently failed to engage when posters have bothered responding to you and when you've tried you've misrepresented their positions. But mostly you just keep repeating the same dumb rants. You haven't a clue what you're talking about and you're boring to boot. Just stop it.


If id seen this I wouldn't have bothered with my last post. Says it all.


----------



## JimW (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation is a dirty word for a lot of people who remember the messes of old


It's a dirty word for headbangers and bellends. And you.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 20, 2019)

The popularity of Corbyn’s policies has also forced the Tory party to track left in its own policy proposals.  No way would they be promising to invest in the NHS etc if they weren’t losing ground to Corbyn on those issues.  His condemnation of austerity has demonstrated it is not just inevitable and forced them to give way on the policy.  The Blairite approval of austerity was what greenlit it in the first place.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Is it? Then why did it spend so many years arguing in favour of the private sector, why are it's councils currently attacking workers, why are so many of its MPs, councillors and party members in favour of tacking right? Are Watson, Creasy, Cooper, Benn etc not Labour?
> 
> DT is a moronic berk but the idea that Labour is the politics of Corbyn/McDonnell is as one dimensional as the idea that Labour was the politics of Blair/Brown. There has always been a very large strand of the LP that views "managing" capitalism as the aim.


I ain't quite that dim thank you. But it's what the current form of the LP is and derailing that is not easy. Ask Owen Who? Smith how well attempting to change it goes. DT wants us to believe it's simply a matter of leadership but it's not a new leader he wants, it's a change of what the LP (currently) fundamentally is, thus he does not like it.

I really love beer you guys, always have, real big fan, but I think it'd work better if it was just made from fermented grapes instead of barley, hops and yeast.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I don't like Corbyn because he's a useless cunt that's dragging the labour party down, but I do like Labour and want them to form the new government.
> 
> I might very well be a cunt, but that's better than being a tory cunt.


You're worse than a Tory cunt


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Why not sensible socialism?
> There's fuck all point pushing nationalization and other far left stuff when there's zero chance of getting elected because of it.
> Try realism that can get elected, then do as much as possible for as many people as possible. An elected Labour government can ensure social welfare is revitalized and stop tory shit happening, but a far left opposition party with no power can do shit all.



Far left = communists?


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 20, 2019)

Another one


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 20, 2019)

mauvais said:


> But it's what the current form of the LP is


Is it why then is the Labour council in Birmingham attacking strikers?  Why are Labour councils cutting funding? The current Labour party is no more what you want it to be than what DT wants it to be.

And it's the above that is precisely the folly and danger of Labourism.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Is it why then is the Labour council in Birmingham attacking strikers? The current Labour party is no more what you want it to be than what DT wants it to be.
> 
> And it's the above that is precisely the folly and danger of Labourism.


I know this is your hobby horse and to get your money's worth it must be ridden at any opportunity, and I'm not here to stop that, but you're arguing some point that hasn't been made. I haven't said that the LP is good or bad, or what I want it to be, or that it does or doesn't do what you describe. Simply that it is firmly what it is today - broadly, the set of things DT wrongly describes as 'far left'. It's not immutable and it's not absolute but neither of those things matter.

Despite what he claims, he doesn't like it and he doesn't want it to win because what he wants it to be is something else entirely, maybe something that it used to be or maybe not. It can only be resolved by him either changing his shit politics or by admitting that his support lies elsewhere.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 20, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Simply that it is firmly what it is today - broadly, the set of things DT wrongly describes as 'far left'. It's not immutable and it's not absolute but neither of those things matter..


You still haven't answered the question if the LP is firmly what you claim it is then why is it strike breaking? Why is it attacking workers? Your picture of the LP is no more accurate than DTs. And lets be honest you do want the type of LP that Corbyn represents don't you? You've argued for such.

DT is irrelevant but there is a huge body of thought in the LP that feels it has 'moved too far left', that exists and it as much part of the LP as Momentum. Many of these people have been members for years or decades. Whatever one might think of their politics anyone getting involved in the LP needs to recognise they exist that they need to be contended with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Why not sensible socialism?
> There's fuck all point pushing nationalization and other far left stuff when there's zero chance of getting elected because of it.
> Try realism that can get elected, then do as much as possible for as many people as possible. An elected Labour government can ensure social welfare is revitalized and stop tory shit happening, but a far left opposition party with no power can do shit all.


Yeh Blair did this electoral thing and he did for lots of people in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries.


----------



## inva (Nov 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> There has always been a very large strand of the LP that views "managing" capitalism as the aim.


What's the other strand?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation is a dirty word for a lot of people who remember the messes of old,


This really sums up your politics. It’s culled from old tabloid headlines from Thatcherite newspaper bosses. Its entirety is “Micheal Foot’s duffel coat disgrace”, and Thatcherite  privatisation propaganda.

I’m old enough to remember nationalised utilities, rail, Mail. And I remember who privatised them. Your definition of “sensible socialism” seems to mean electing a Labour Party which accepts Thatcherite doctrine - neoliberalism - as “common sense”. This was tried. It was called New Labour. It entailed further attacks on the working class. I see no point in electing a non Tory government in name only. And yet that for you is “sensible socialism”.

You, sir, are a buffoon.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> There has always been a very large strand of the LP that views "managing" capitalism as the aim.



Tbh that's near universal for labour isn't it, even the labour left and its political leaders are no thereat to capitalism, capitalism in a particular form fair enough but the aim is a more regulated form


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 20, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I know this is your hobby horse and to get your money's worth it must be ridden at any opportunity, and I'm not here to stop that, but you're arguing some point that hasn't been made. I haven't said that the LP is good or bad, or what I want it to be, or that it does or doesn't do what you describe. Simply that it is firmly what it is today - broadly, the set of things DT wrongly describes as 'far left'. It's not immutable and it's not absolute but neither of those things matter.
> 
> Despite what he claims, he doesn't like it and he doesn't want it to win because what he wants it to be is something else entirely, maybe something that it used to be or maybe not. It can only be resolved by him either changing his shit politics or by admitting that his support lies elsewhere.



You’ve conflated the position of Corbyn and other left social democrats as ‘what the party is’. That’s a fundamental misreading of how Labour works.

You can broadly divide the Party into the following sections: The leadership, the PLP, the CLPs, the unions, factional groups, Local Government and other affiliates. I’ve probably missed a few. These  groups are not in step politically. They haven’t been historically either. At any one time certain sections will be ascendant, others on decline and others battling it out. 

I don’t think this is a controversial point and not sure why you’ve decided to try to make it one.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 20, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Tbh that's near universal for labour isn't it, even the labour left and its political leaders are no thereat to capitalism, capitalism in a particular form fair enough but the aim is a more regulated form



Yes. Spot on. Even for the Labour left the aim is the management of the system into a different direction rather than its replacement.

Nationalisation is a classic case in point. Firstly, a large segment of the Party only ever saw it as a necessary expedient during war to manage supply and after to manage reconstruction. It wasn’t, for them, _politically_ important and they wanted a return to the private sector ASAP.

Even amongst those who believes in nationalisation politically they stopped short of worker control or even involvement in the management of the operation. If you look at, for example, British Steel. There wasn’t a great deal of difference in the management board in periods of national and private ownership


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 20, 2019)

inva said:


> What's the other strand?





Proper Tidy said:


> Tbh that's near universal for labour isn't it, even the labour left and its political leaders are no thereat to capitalism, capitalism in a particular form fair enough but the aim is a more regulated form


Probably badly put, what I meant by managing capitalism was the (traditional) labour right and left-liberal strands of the party.

While there is clearly an overlap (especially in deeds) I'd argue the soft left and hard left are different strands, who want (in theory anyway) to go a little further than just "managing" capitalism. And TBF there has always been a reformist socialist strand in the LP, even if it was small.


----------



## krink (Nov 20, 2019)

I must have watched a different debate last night cos both news reporters on two stations on the radio this morning said boris johnson won. The bias against Labour in the media is unbelievable, its almost as bad as it was during the miners strike. I'm even thinking I might vote for him to spite the fuckers. Its blatant.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 20, 2019)

krink said:


> I must have watched a different debate last night cos both news reporters on two stations on the radio this morning said boris johnson won. The bias against Labour in the media is unbelievable, its almost as bad as it was during the miners strike. I'm even thinking I might vote for him to spite the fuckers. Its blatant.



I found the entire hour turgid.I don't think either 'won' I can't imagine anyone changed their mind having watched it. The format didn't help, it was piss poor. That definitely harmed Corbyn who couldn't develop points and it bailed Johnson out when he started wobbling.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The format didn't help, it was piss poor. That definitely harmed Corbyn who couldn't develop points and it bailed Johnson out when he started wobbling.



The circus loves the clown


----------



## elbows (Nov 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I found the entire hour turgid.I don't think either 'won' I can't imagine anyone changed their mind having watched it. The format didn't help, it was piss poor. That definitely harmed Corbyn who couldn't develop points and it bailed Johnson out when he started wobbling.



I dont think rudely talking all over the host all the bloody time was a good look for Johnson either. Format made his repeated dragging of everything back to Brexit tired and awkward too.

Not that I'm trying to make too much of these things, they arent big difference makers.

My mum has joined Labour but long-term dodgy media messages still seem to affect her expectations regarding Corbyn in these situations - every time he is in a debate like this she expresses surprise afterwards that he did OK. Even though his strengths and weaknesses with this stuff are fairly constant and unchanging over these leadership years.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You’ve conflated the position of Corbyn and other left social democrats as ‘what the party is’. That’s a fundamental misreading of how Labour works.
> 
> You can broadly divide the Party into the following sections: The leadership, the PLP, the CLPs, the unions, factional groups, Local Government and other affiliates. I’ve probably missed a few. These  groups are not in step politically. They haven’t been historically either. At any one time certain sections will be ascendant, others on decline and others battling it out.
> 
> I don’t think this is a controversial point and not sure why you’ve decided to try to make it one.


I know what the component parts of the party are, and I know what the nature and history of it is. I don't know why you're trying to explain it to me.

When someone bangs on about everything that they don't like, only to claim, "_I do like Labour and want them to form the new government_", WTF are we to take that to mean? I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with local government. Maybe it really means, 'I liked the Tony Blair Labour Party and I wish it was that again', but that would be fucking stupid, because it's no longer a thing and nor can it be. Maybe it means, 'I like whatever the party might be without Jeremy Corbyn', but that's not a thing either, that's the absence of a thing - probably any electoral popularity for the last couple of iterations, FWIW - and barely even that.

No matter what diagrams you come up with to detail the cogs and wires of how the machine works, that's not the machine, the machine is the assembled thing, either as it exists right now or in the set of possible permutations through which it might actually successfully operate in today's reality. And since DT doesn't like the former and doesn't demonstrate any understanding of the latter, it's a load of bollocks, isn't it?

And we've all wasted much more time on this than they deserve.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

mauvais said:


> And we've all wasted much more time on this than they deserve.


quite. let's get back to the chino chat.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 20, 2019)

[QUOTE="mauvais, post: 16293946, member: 17847"No matter what diagrams you come up with to detail the cogs and wires of how the machine works, that's not the machine, the machine is the assembled thing, either as it exists right now or in the set of possible permutations through which it might actually successfully operate in today's reality. And since DT doesn't like the former and doesn't demonstrate any understanding of the latter, it's a load of bollocks, isn't it? And we've all wasted much more time on this than they deserve.[/QUOTE]

Unless you understand how each cog and wire operates _and the function it performs _then you can't understand the machine except on the most superficial level.

Anyway, can see how this might turn into a derail, so let's move on. Even though the thread is becoming as boring as the GE itself.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Why not sensible socialism?
> There's fuck all point pushing nationalization and other far left stuff when there's zero chance of getting elected because of it.
> Try realism that can get elected, then do as much as possible for as many people as possible. An elected Labour government can ensure social welfare is revitalized and stop tory shit happening, but a far left opposition party with no power can do shit all.



By sensible socialism do you mean 'not socialism'?

If you had a clue about anything you would know that nationalisation is popular. 

Honestly you're just stuck in a loop from the mid 90's don't you bore yourself to tears at this point?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Why not sensible socialism?
> There's fuck all point pushing nationalization and other far left stuff when there's zero chance of getting elected because of it.
> Try realism that can get elected, then do as much as possible for as many people as possible. An elected Labour government can ensure social welfare is revitalized and stop tory shit happening, but a far left opposition party with no power can do shit all.



She's no Lady Macbeth

there is nothing socialist apart from the inclusion of socialism in its name about the 'sensible socialism' you suggest

don't you remember the dumping of clause four and the inviting of margaret thatcher to downing street by tony blair - the disappearance of everything socialist from the labour party's politics save the occasional use of the word 'socialist'?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 20, 2019)

Did anyone watch the interviews with the leaders of the smaller parties?

Jo Swinson made it very clear, if there's a hung parliament, that the LibDems will not put Johnson or Corbyn into No.10.

So, if it's a hung parliament, and LibDems MPs are required to back one or other, what are they going to do?

Stick their fingers in their ears and make the lala sound?


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

They'll support - tacitly or explicitly - whichever it's most politically expedient to support I'd imagine.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Did anyone watch the interviews with the leaders of the smaller parties?
> 
> Jo Swinson made it very clear, if there's a hung parliament, that the LibDems will not put Johnson or Corbyn into No.10.
> 
> ...



Technically they're not required to are they? They can refuse to go with either and let them do whatever thy decide.

In reality though they'd go with whoever offers her personally the best position in the cabinet.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Why not sensible socialism?
> There's fuck all point pushing nationalization and other far left stuff when there's zero chance of getting elected because of it.
> Try realism that can get elected, then do as much as possible for as many people as possible. An elected Labour government can ensure social welfare is revitalized and stop tory shit happening, but a far left opposition party with no power can do shit all.


You really haven't got a clue have you? I'm highly critical of Corbyn and the Labouur left's strategy, not just on brexit but you pick the very things to criticise that give Labour a chance of minimising the tory majority. But you'd prefer to keep public utilities in private hands?  So, what is this sensible socialism that Labour should be pushing? Could you give us some details where they are going wrong?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 20, 2019)

maomao said:


> Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov
> 
> Given latest polls suggest most of the country is 'far left' by your definition shall we all just fuck work off today and get on with the revolution?
> 
> It's not that you're a cunt Troomp, though you probably are, it's that you're an idiot. People aren't objecting to your posts because they disagree with them, it's because you're foolish and annoying. You've consistently failed to engage when posters have bothered responding to you and when you've tried you've misrepresented their positions. But mostly you just keep repeating the same dumb rants. You haven't a clue what you're talking about and you're boring to boot. Just stop it.


Actually, I don't know why I bothered responding. This covers it perfectly.


----------



## chilango (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> quite. let's get back to the chino chat.



The sad demise of Gap Khakis


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

the snap poll from last night among undecided voters is much better than the headline figures fwiw.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

the actual tables are hilarious tbh. the results are mostly just a straight indication of party preference


----------



## N_igma (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Did anyone watch the interviews with the leaders of the smaller parties?
> 
> Jo Swinson made it very clear, if there's a hung parliament, that the LibDems will not put Johnson or Corbyn into No.10.
> 
> ...



They’ll enter a coalition with the Tories if they get a second crack at that AV Referendum.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 20, 2019)

N_igma said:


> They’ll enter a coalition with the Tories if they get a second crack at that AV Referendum.



Even the Lib-Dems aren't stupid enough to do exactly the same the same thing as they did before tbf. They'd find something else to sell out for of course but the AV stuff is dead.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> This really sums up your politics. It’s culled from old tabloid headlines from Thatcherite newspaper bosses. Its entirety is “Micheal Foot’s duffel coat disgrace”, and Thatcherite  privatisation propaganda.
> 
> I’m old enough to remember nationalised utilities, rail, Mail. And I remember who privatised them. Your definition of “sensible socialism” seems to mean electing a Labour Party which accepts Thatcherite doctrine - neoliberalism - as “common sense”. This was tried. It was called New Labour. It entailed further attacks on the working class. I see no point in electing a non Tory government in name only. And yet that for you is “sensible socialism”.
> 
> You, sir, are a buffoon.


Yeah, this. Labour are in a complete mess, particularly its relationship with working class voters, but the policies they are likely to include in the manifesto might be seen as the very essence of 'sensible social democracy'.


----------



## treelover (Nov 20, 2019)

kabbes said:


> *The popularity of Corbyn’s policies has also forced the Tory party to track left in its own policy proposals.  N*o way would they be promising to invest in the NHS etc if they weren’t losing ground to Corbyn on those issues.  His condemnation of austerity has demonstrated it is not just inevitable and forced them to give way on the policy.  The Blairite approval of austerity was what greenlit it in the first place.



One of the editors of the the Telegraph was bemoaning this on Sky New, the magic money tree is now growing in the Tory garden, etc.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, this. Labour are in a complete mess, particularly its relationship with working class voters, but the policies they are likely to include in the manifesto might be seen as the very essence of 'sensible social democracy'.


It’s instructive that people who repeat the headline tabloid scare stories that Corbyn’s programme is “hard left” are unable to define “hard left”, other than Don Troooomp ’s risible complaint that it’s something to do with “nationalisation”. 

The thing is that Labour’s 2017 manifesto was actually pretty mealie mouthed about nationalisation. It talked about “transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system”. That is frankly pretty disappointing.  Their 2019 Manifesto isn’t published yet, as far as I know, but I imagined it’ll be similarly couched with “eventually” and “as far as possible”.  

Anyone who thinks that’s “far left” has got a knackered compass.


----------



## treelover (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> the snap poll from last night among undecided voters is much better than the headline figures fwiw.





Shame the media have already shaped the message, Johnson by a whisker, no real winner, etc.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Their 2019 Manifesto isn’t published yet, as far as I know


it's supposed to be out tomorrow, so will probably be leaked at some point this afternoon.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> Shame the media have already shaped the message, Johnson by a whisker, no real winner, etc.


What else were they going to do?


----------



## N_igma (Nov 20, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Even the Lib-Dems aren't stupid enough to do exactly the same the same thing as they did before tbf. They'd find something else to sell out for of course but the AV stuff is dead.



Yeh I was taking the piss mate doesn’t usually translate well in the written word lol.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

JimW said:


> It's a dirty word for headbangers and bellends. And you.



I'm not a headbanger or bellend?
Thank you


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'm not a headbanger or bellend?
> Thank you


Is that a rhetorical question?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> if you'd taken a moment to look at the polling rather than just thinking whatever the papers tell you to think you'd see that it's actually incredibly popular.



Ah, that's why Labour is so far ahead in the polls.I must go to an opticians and see about my chronic red/blue colourblindness.

Daft fucker


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You're worse than a Tory cunt



I'm not pushing an agenda that's giving the tory cunts this election on a silver bastard platter.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'm not pushing an agenda that's giving the tory cunts this election on a silver bastard platter.


Yes you fucking are.  Very much so.  Very, very, very much so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> Shame the media have already shaped the message, Johnson by a whisker, no real winner, etc.



perhaps you should check all the media before making such statements. and upthread there's a post about how on a couple of radio stations they were saying this morning johnson had won it. not suggesting you can do better but now and then you might like to at least try


----------



## andysays (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'm not pushing an agenda that's giving the tory cunts this election on a silver bastard platter.


Oh yes you are...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'm not pushing an agenda that's giving the tory cunts this election on a silver bastard platter.


and perhaps you'd like to finally show me where i've supported corbyn.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Far left = communists?



Up to you but for me ... far left = unelectable so the tories win

Just as with the Foot disaster, this position will be proven correct in time.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'm not pushing an agenda that's giving the tory cunts this election on a silver bastard platter.



Let's say your preferred leader - Starmer - was the leader.

Let's also assume he'd dropped the programme on nationalisation. He would also presumably be campaigning on a remain pledge.

What else should he dump from the current policies? The National Investment Bank? Broadband? Health and Education policy?

What would he add?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'm not pushing an agenda that's giving the tory cunts this election on a silver bastard platter.


your agenda is that the labour party is unelectable and this election has already been handed to johnson. you have at every turn derided corbyn with on rare occasion a dig at johnson: but your attacks on the labour party have been unremitting. and they've been based on a view that they must move to the right. that the right is where the population of this country is, despite numerous observations to the contrary - eg the popularity of nationalisation. i don't know how you can say without lying (again) through your teeth that you're not acting in the conservative and unionist party's interests.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

maomao said:


> Given latest polls suggest most of the country is 'far left' by your definition shall we all just fuck work off today and get on with the revolution?



Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov

Bollocks. Most people, rightly, don't want the police and army in private hands, but telecoms can't even get to 40% support for nationalisation. Given that's one of the stated aims and the majority don't want it, Labour is wrong both politically and strategically.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You're worse than a Tory cunt



That's just nasty, even for a troll job.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Up to you but for me ... far left = unelectable so the tories win
> 
> Just as with the Foot disaster, this position will be proven correct in time.



You're so vacuous and repetitive I'm beginning to suspect you might actually be Jonathan Freedland.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> That's just nasty, even for a troll job.


how old are you ?


----------



## maomao (Nov 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Let's say your preferred leader - Starmer - was the leader.
> 
> Let's also assume he'd dropped the programme on nationalisation. He would also presumably be campaigning on a remain pledge.
> 
> ...


Add in a few Tory lite policies and just think what Boris would be pushing. As it is he's had to reign in the manifesto a little. Might even get a bit more free childcare. Up against a Blair clone promising more privatisations and benefit crackdowns he'd be promising to cut corporation tax to 0%.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov
> 
> Bollocks. Most people, rightly, don't want the police and army in private hands, but telecoms can't even get to 40% support for nationalisation. Given that's one of the stated aims and the majority don't want it, Labour is wrong both politically and strategically.


Why didn't you read that old article:



> While support for nationalisation drops off beyond these services, state ownership is still the preferred option for a majority of people across most of the industries we asked about. In fact, there were only three sectors on the list that the majority of British people wanted to remain in private hands: telephone and internet providers (53% want them run by the private sector), banks (also 53%) and airlines (68%).



Why am i bothering?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> That's just nasty, even for a troll job.


is it? you're a liar (numerous requests for you to back your claims about what i've said have been met with silence or ridicule). you want the labour party to move to the right, describing nationalisation as far-left politics when it's nothing of the sort. you obsessively criticise jeremy corbyn for all manner of things which appear plucked straight from the pages of the more barking daily mail articles. and you big up mrs thatcher. you make out how you want rid of the tories but it's clear that you want everyone to move towards that nefandous party. you're a fraud and a fake and a tory-aiding cunt


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov
> 
> Bollocks. Most people, rightly, don't want the police and army in private hands, but telecoms can't even get to 40% support for nationalisation. Given that's one of the stated aims and the majority don't want it, Labour is wrong both politically and strategically.


and this is your not helping the tories how?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Ah, that's why Labour is so far ahead in the polls.I must go to an opticians and see about my chronic red/blue colourblindness.
> 
> Daft fucker


Here's a thought - maybe they'd be even further behind without nationalisation as a policy? Maybe they're behind for some other reason?

You'd have thought you'd get something right by accident occasionally but it appears not.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> That's just nasty, even for a troll job.


Also true.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Here's a thought - maybe they'd be even further behind without nationalisation as a policy? Maybe they're behind for some other reason?
> 
> You'd have thought you'd get something right by accident occasionally but it appears not.


perhaps a reason like the last few years of relentless anti-corbyn nonsense like this gem from the mail website


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 20, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Here's a thought - maybe they'd be even further behind without nationalisation as a policy? Maybe they're behind for some other reason?
> 
> You'd have thought you'd get something right by accident occasionally but it appears not.



Even stopped clocks but not DT.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Have you read "industries we asked about"?

Seems people don't want the police and army nationalised
Did they say all schools, or just the ones run by government at the moment ? 
The poll asked really stupid questions that were guaranteed to get answers showing most people want nationalisation, but the election promises of buses and telecoms are 50/50 or just plain unpopular.
It's a stretch that doesn't work.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps a reason like the last few years of relentless anti-corbyn nonsense like this gem from the mail website
> View attachment 190470



Fucking hell that's mad even for the Heil.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 20, 2019)

Many congratulations to everyone debating with Don Troooomp . Amazing work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Have you read "industries we asked about"?


just a quick 'mea culpa' from you and we can move on from your lying about things i've said.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> That's just nasty, even for a troll job.


Tell Sid.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Tell Sid.


One for Generation X there.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Here's a thought - maybe they'd be even further behind without nationalisation as a policy? Maybe they're behind for some other reason?



Well ..

unpopular policies
unrealistic policies
A wanker posing as labour leader
A tory leader that's a daft cunt but a labour leader unable to show the fucking obvious
A labour party with no unified position on much


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Well ..
> 
> unpopular policies
> unrealistic policies
> ...


if the labour policies are so unpopular why are the tory party riffing them?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 20, 2019)

Can someone switch off the Don-bot?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Can someone switch off the Don-bot?


editor, aqua, Lazy Llama or FridgeMagnet can throw the switch


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you're a fraud and a fake and a tory-aiding cunt



Fuck off. Unpopular policies and an unpopular leader are the tories biggest friends here, and silly fuckers defending those ideals and the silly fucker leader.
Tory aiding - that's Corbyn and the left wing, and they're doing a fine job. I'd accuse them of being on the take from tory central office, but I think they're just too stupid to see what they're doing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 20, 2019)

Or we could all just ignore the buffoon.


----------



## maomao (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov
> 
> Bollocks. Most people, rightly, don't want the police and army in private hands, but telecoms can't even get to 40% support for nationalisation. Given that's one of the stated aims and the majority don't want it, Labour is wrong both politically and strategically.


They're not offering to nationalise telecoms only to build a proper fibre network and make it free at point of use. 62% of people across political affiliations think this is a good idea and only 22% out and out oppose it:

Survey shows public support for Labour free broadband plan

Please stop posting here.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Or we could all just ignore the buffoon.


I've tried doing that, but these threads end up looking really odd.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> I've tried doing that, but these threads end up looking really odd.



Yes same here. It's like everyone else at the picnic flapping away a wasp you can't see.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 20, 2019)

maomao said:


> They're not offering to nationalise telecoms only to build a proper fibre network and make it free at point of use. 62% of people across political affiliations think this is a good idea and only 22% out and out oppose it:
> 
> Survey shows public support for Labour free broadband plan
> 
> Please stop posting here.



The plan is to nationalise Openreach, which is by far the largest telecoms provider. 

They have also said they will need to consider doing the same with other broadband/telecom networks, such as Virgin & CityFibre.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Fuck off. Unpopular policies and an unpopular leader are the tories biggest friends here, and silly fuckers defending those ideals and the silly fucker leader.
> Tory aiding - that's Corbyn and the left wing, and they're doing a fine job. I'd accuse them of being on the take from tory central office, but I think they're just too stupid to see what they're doing.


you don't know the difference between policies and ideals. which doesn't surprise me.


----------



## maomao (Nov 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't know the difference between policies and ideals. which doesn't surprise me.


He doesn't know the difference between his arse and his fucking elbow.


----------



## maomao (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The plan is to nationalise Openreach, which is by far the largest telecoms provider.
> 
> They have also said they will need to consider doing the same with other broadband/telecom networks, such as Virgin & CityFibre.


But not telephones so not the whole of 'telecoms'.


----------



## elbows (Nov 20, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One for Generation X there.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 20, 2019)

maomao said:


> But not telephones so not the whole of 'telecoms'.



You do realise the 'networks' they plan to nationalise, also carry telephone traffic, there isn't separate networks?

And, that if everyone has free fibre into the home, no one is going to be paying for a 'telephone line', as everyone will just switch to using 'voice over internet' phones?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> You do realise the 'networks' they plan to nationalise, also carry telephone traffic, there isn't separate networks?
> 
> And, that if everyone has free fibre into the home, no one is going to be paying for a 'telephone line', as everyone will just switch to using 'voice over internet' phones?


or just use their mobiles like they do now ?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 20, 2019)

Indeed.


----------



## maomao (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> You do realise the 'networks' they plan to nationalise, also carry telephone traffic, there isn't separate networks?
> 
> And, that if everyone has free fibre into the home, no one is going to be paying for a 'telephone line', as everyone will just switch to using 'voice over internet' phones?


Even better. Was this explained to the people who answered the yougov poll before Labour had even released their current policy which there is clear public support for.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Well ..
> 
> unpopular policies
> unrealistic policies
> ...



The policies are not unpopular or unrealistic. And Corbyn might be a wanker, sure, but he's not as much of a wanker as Starmer who you want or Johnson and none of these people not even Johnson is as much of an asinine fucking ballbag as you please shut up just stop.

E2A: AND the Labour Party had a unified position on Brexit until Remainiac CUNTS like you demanded it be changed if you remember the shitty policy on Brexit is to placate YOU.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> You do realise the 'networks' they plan to nationalise, also carry telephone traffic, there isn't separate networks?
> 
> And, that if everyone has free fibre into the home, no one is going to be paying for a 'telephone line', as everyone will just switch to using 'voice over internet' phones?


Cool.

This proposal isn't really so radical. Nationalised basic infrastructure as opposed to private monopolies is, as someone pointed out a while ago, Buttskellite really. It's something Adam Smith may have approved of.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

why are you all having last week's argument again?


----------



## maomao (Nov 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> The policies are not unpopular or unrealistic. And Corbyn might be a wanker, sure, but he's not as much of a wanker as Starmer who you want or Johnson and none of these people not even Johnson is as much of an asinine fucking ballbag as you please shut up just stop.
> 
> E2A: AND the Labour Party had a unified position on Brexit until Remainiac CUNTS like you demanded it be changed if you remember the shitty policy on Brexit is to placate YOU.


If Starmer was leader the Mail would be calling him Keir Stalin and cunts like Trump would still be demanding the party shift right.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 20, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> The policies are not unpopular or unrealistic. And Corbyn might be a wanker, sure, but he's not as much of a wanker as Starmer who you want or Johnson and none of these people not even Johnson is as much of an asinine fucking ballbag as you please shut up just stop.
> 
> E2A: AND the Labour Party had a unified position on Brexit until Remainiac CUNTS like you demanded it be changed if you remember the shitty policy on Brexit is to placate YOU.


Labours economic policies are popular, poll after poll confirms that. Its the rest of the baggage that comes with Labour thats the problem which means it has issues winning over many working class voters.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 20, 2019)

maomao said:


> If Starmer was leader the Mail would be calling him Keir Stalin and cunts like Trump would still be demanding the party shift right.


Yep. If Labour are going to win with anything other than a 'tory-lite' programme (and what's the point of that - just let the tories do tory things), then they have to win with large parts of the press lined up against them, including the likes of the BBC and The Guardian, spreading lies and misinformation, selectively quoting and generally misrepresenting everything they can. That's the challenge, and it is really nothing to do with Corbyn the individual at all.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 20, 2019)

I didn't see it, I was watching Iplayer - something about a Yorkshire farm , 9 kids, sheep, quite enjoyed that.


----------



## elbows (Nov 20, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I didn't see it, I was watching Iplayer - something about a Yorkshire farm , 9 kids, sheep, quite enjoyed that.



Any ditches?


----------



## chilango (Nov 20, 2019)

Last night's TV made me pretty angry tbh. I mean, how can professional chefs fuck up a _croque monsieur_?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> Last night's TV made me pretty angry tbh. I mean, how can professional chefs fuck up a _croque monsieur_?


yeh that was appalling  not to mention how other chefs fucked up *risotto*


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 20, 2019)

spoilers... im still on catch up on ep 4 

Still it was far better than the debate


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 20, 2019)

Brexit Party are putting up a candidate in my constituency (I get a postal vote, even though now abroad). Trying to find out who she is and what she believes wasn’t very successful - one of the earliest google results is her less than illuminating twitter feed:  Delphine Gray-Fisk (@DGrayFisk) on Twitter

.. it doesn’t scream “sharp operator” to me.

With further googling I see she’s an ex airline pilot, which is enough to rule her out for me, as every pilot I’ve ever known has been a total nutcase.  Does piloting attract narcissistic psychopaths, or does the job just lead them down that path?  

Of course her standing for BXP was already enough to rule her out of contention for my vote, but nosiness led me to want to research what kind of person wants to be a Brexit party MP.  She will have no chance anyway, Slough is a safe Labour seat.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 20, 2019)

elbows said:


> Any ditches?


there were some ditches


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Seems people don't want the police and army nationalised


please engage brain before posting


----------



## chilango (Nov 20, 2019)

Our Brexit Party candidate got milkshaked yesterday.

Reading Brexit Party candidate has milkshake thrown at him


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> Our Brexit Party candidate got milkshaked yesterday.
> 
> Reading Brexit Party candidate has milkshake thrown at him


A wonderful tradition. Fills me with renewed trust in human nature.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 20, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Tell Sid.


There was grafitti in our local park that said 'we've seen sid and we've told him now fuck off' which I always found very amusing.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> Our Brexit Party candidate got milkshaked yesterday.
> 
> Reading Brexit Party candidate has milkshake thrown at him



Our intended BP candidate, now stood down, is a US citizen that only moved here in April 2018, and described his British citizenship as 'pending'.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 20, 2019)

Shame about his aim but at least it landed on some Brexit Party crap.



> "He repeatedly screamed “F**k you! F**k the Brexit Party! And F**k Nigel Farage!”
> 
> “He was carrying a container in his hand, which he threw at me from six feet.
> 
> “He missed but still managed to damage my property, including Brexit Party-branded items that were resting on the table, before running away."


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> Our Brexit Party candidate got milkshaked yesterday.
> 
> Reading Brexit Party candidate has milkshake thrown at him



I like that they've gone to the effort of taking plenty of photos so everyone can see the true horror of it.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Our intended BP candidate, now stood down, is a US citizen that only moved here in April 2018, and described his British citizenship as 'pending'.



They really do attract a special kind of person.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> Last night's TV made me pretty angry tbh. I mean, how can professional chefs fuck up a _croque monsieur_?


Bet they forgot to put cheese on top of the toastie


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> They really do attract a special kind of person.


so do we


----------



## Wilf (Nov 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps a reason like the last few years of relentless anti-corbyn nonsense like this gem from the mail website
> View attachment 190470


Wow, we've arrived at a very weird place. I remember about 7/8 years ago there was a student anti-austerity demo in Manchester where some chant or other was reported to have included the word Jews or similar. I recall it playing out on the guardian website comments or maybe youtube where the clip was posted. Tanya Gold was amongst those making the accusations and I post a few comments aimed directly at her saying to just listen and giving what was a more likely syllable by syllable break down. TBF to her she accepted that it was entirely innocent and none of the words used in the demo were about Jews, Jewishness etc. But it was depressing seeing an influx of people joining the guardian board solely to repeat the accusations of antisemitism and who were then completely unwilling to listen to clear evidence that there was no antisemitism at all.

By the by, A) I'm quite embarrassed that I ever had a log in for the guardian's comments page.  Also, B) that's not some metaphor saying that all accusations of anti-semitism are made up. It's been a habit of mind that some in the Labour Party have inherited from the 'far left'. My only point is that this ridiculous accusation in the mail is both depressing and a sign of the times.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 20, 2019)

chilango said:


> Our Brexit Party candidate got milkshaked yesterday.



This should be _got milkshook.
_
HTH


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 20, 2019)

Milkshocked


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 20, 2019)

Milkshaken


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 20, 2019)




----------



## strung out (Nov 20, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Milkshaken


Not stirred.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> This should be _got milkshook.
> _
> HTH





not-bono-ever said:


> Milkshocked





bluescreen said:


> Milkshaken



Headbutted.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 20, 2019)

Milkshock troops


----------



## Wilf (Nov 20, 2019)

Semi-Skimmed Special Forces
Soya Squadron
Lactic Logistics Corps


----------



## teqniq (Nov 20, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Up to you but for me ... far left = unelectable so the tories win
> 
> Just as with the Foot disaster, this position will be proven correct in time.


You absolute fuckinng clown. You woudn't know 'far left' if it pissed on you leg. Labour in it's present manifetation is mildly socialist. It would seem you have bought the bullshit being put forth by a number of right-leaning media outlets.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 20, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Semi-Skimmed Special Forces
> Soya Squadron
> Lactic Logistics Corps


Long Range Dessert Group.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 20, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Long Range Dessert Group.


Sadly, they were involved in recent attacks on the Curds.


----------



## xenon (Nov 20, 2019)

Smoothie attack squad

 Who dairies   wins...


----------



## treelover (Nov 20, 2019)

The tory dirty tricks with twitter, is not just an issue of fake news, it also undermines the concept of full facts, which is very serious in itself as more and more with social media it will need independent verification, if the public can't trust F/F what can it trust?


----------



## weltweit (Nov 20, 2019)

Political advertising should come under Advertising Standards and be required to be correct. 

Why do commercial advertisers get held to the truth but political parties escape such a test?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Political advertising should come under Advertising Standards and be required to be correct.
> 
> Why do commercial advertisers get held to the truth but political parties escape such a test?


Because politicians make the laws


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> The tory dirty tricks with twitter, is not just an issue of fake news, it also undermines the concept of full facts, which is very serious in itself as more and more with social media it will need independent verification, if the public can't trust F/F what can it trust?


Death and taxes


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 20, 2019)

Alan Moore has entered the chat.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> The tory dirty tricks with twitter, is not just an issue of fake news, it also undermines the concept of full facts, which is very serious in itself as more and more with social media it will need independent verification, if the public can't trust F/F what can it trust?


Tbf , the Tories proper fucked up on this , their Social Media advisors thought they understood Twitter and the backlash proves they don't.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 20, 2019)

So - Corbyn's Labour is pressuring the Tories to edge their manifesto ever so slightly leftwards, and Johnson's Conservatives are edging anarchists towards the ballot box.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 20, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Alan Moore has entered the chat.
> 
> View attachment 190493



Welp, Corbyns lost now.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 20, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Alan Moore has entered the chat.
> 
> View attachment 190493


Are Alan Moore fans ( who ever Alan Moore is) a big swing indicator ?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 20, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Are Alan Moore fans ( who ever Alan Moore is) a big swing indicator ?


Might as well give Labour the trophy now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2019)

teuchter said:


> So - Corbyn's Labour is pressuring the Tories to edge their manifesto ever so slightly leftwards, and Johnson's Conservatives are edging anarchists towards the ballot box.


I don't think you've even managed to persuade one person to get a lock for their toilet, so you're somewhere below the vauxhall conference of influencers


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 20, 2019)

teuchter said:


> So - Corbyn's Labour is pressuring the Tories to edge their manifesto ever so slightly leftwards, and Johnson's Conservatives are edging anarchists towards the ballot box.


He’s managed to get one former anarchist I know to vote for the Tories


----------



## mauvais (Nov 20, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Alan Moore has entered the chat.
> 
> View attachment 190493


I'm having a great Alan Moore week so far.

 

That's from 2016 but got dug up by some publication this week. Nails it IMO.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 20, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> He’s managed to get one former anarchist I know to vote for the Tories


I bet it's someone off urban75.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> He’s managed to get one former anarchist I know to vote for the Tories


how did he do this?


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Nov 20, 2019)

My voting card arrived today! Roll on 12th.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> He’s managed to get one former anarchist I know to vote for the Tories


Is he a Dr?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 20, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I bet it's someone off urban75.


Was. Tbf he’s about the only anarchist I’ve met in real life.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 20, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is he a Dr?


Yup.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> how did he do this?


To be fair it’s a complex formula of Brexit , an analysis of Labour being a  coalition of w/class/ Islamacists/ identity politics and classic liberal tendencies in anarchism . Me I’d build something new but he thinks it’s gone past that stage .


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> To be fair it’s a complex formula of Brexit , an analysis of Labour being a  coalition of w/class/ Islamacists/ identity politics and classic liberal tendencies in anarchism . Me I’d build something new but he thinks it’s gone past that stage .


I don't understand how that gets to voting tory!


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

It's basically a great big shame


----------



## Libertad (Nov 20, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's basically a great big shame



Innit tho


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

I mean... it's bullshit isn't it? Not a shame, absolute bullshit.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 20, 2019)

I know who the39thstep is talking about but who the fuck is Alan Moore of Northampton??


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 20, 2019)

Is it this Alan Moore?

Can U Dig It?
pop will eat itself can u dig it? - Google Search


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I know who the39thstep is talking about but who the fuck is Alan Moore of Northampton??


he's probably the most important comic writer of the past 50 years - Wrote Watchmen and V for Vendetta among other seminal works.


----------



## killer b (Nov 20, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is it this Alan Moore?
> 
> Can U Dig It?
> pop will eat itself can u dig it? - Google Search


probably.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't understand how that gets to voting tory!


It fits with the general tendency on urban, very visible at present, of a gradual drift from anarchism towards conservatism as people get older. It's just like the rest of society, but with more pretentious justifications.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 20, 2019)

teuchter said:


> It fits with the general tendency on urban, very visible at present, of a gradual drift from anarchism towards conservatism as people get older. It's just like the rest of society, but with more pretentious justifications.


Alright churchill


----------



## Wilf (Nov 21, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Yup.


I'm intrigued. Somebody off urban, Dr related? Medical or academic?


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 21, 2019)

Reading between the lines on some of these comments, I’m suspecting a couple of posters on this thread have shares in privatised companies.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I'm intrigued. Somebody off urban, Dr related? Medical or academic?


Academic.He's always laid his cards on the table even when he identified as an anarchist.  Hes a mixed bag tbh, excellent on terrorism and on the far right personally I dont understand the vote Tory stuff. He came to interview me as part of his Phd and I spent a fascinating three hours with him chatting. Excellent company despite our political disagreements and a nice bloke.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if the labour policies are so unpopular why are the tory party riffing them?



I don't believe they've suggested nationalising anything so far this week.
The fuckers have stolen the NHS stuff but they'll drop that one after the election. However, they've got their point over, even if it is a lie.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> The policies are not unpopular or unrealistic. And Corbyn might be a wanker, sure, but he's not as much of a wanker as Starmer who you want...
> .



The policies are unpopular or Labour would be ahead in the polls.

Corbyn is a wanker, Johnson a far bigger one, but the latter is good at PR so hides it really well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Academic.He's always laid his cards on the table even when he identified as an anarchist.  Hes a mixed bag tbh, excellent on terrorism and on the far right personally I dont understand the vote Tory stuff. He came to interview me as part of his Phd and I spent a fascinating three hours with him chatting. Excellent company despite our political disagreements and a nice bloke.


Is /was he a member of ukip?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The policies are unpopular or Labour would be ahead in the polls.
> 
> Corbyn is a wanker, Johnson a far bigger one, but the latter is good at PR so hides it really well.


This is pointless, you only comprehend politics on the most superficial level and usually even get that wrong. Nobody here has anything but contempt for you, you thick cunt, and it appears you don't think too highly of us either so why don't you just fuck off? There's probably a lib dem or tory wet forum where you'd feel right at home.

I'm not saying this to be nasty, please just fuck off.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The policies are unpopular or Labour would be ahead in the polls.
> 
> Corbyn is a wanker, Johnson a far bigger one, but the latter is good at PR so hides it really well.


If the policies are so shit , and if as you say Corbyn's a wanker, how come he and the policies destroyed May's majority so much she had to jump into bed with the DUP last time ?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 21, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> If the policies are so shit , and if as you say Corbyn's a wanker, how come he and the policies destroyed Mays's majority so much she had to jump into bed with the DUP last time ?


And why are the Tories tacking left and borrowing labour policies? Why did Owen Smith (who I assume the fuckwit supported) pretend to agree with Corbyn on basically everything?

Please don't answer that troooomp, it will be boring, irritating and wrong so don't bother.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 21, 2019)

This is just shitposting isn’t it? Ignore the disruptive and dishonest twat, it’s being stupid on purpose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The policies are unpopular or Labour would be ahead in the polls.
> 
> Corbyn is a wanker, Johnson a far bigger one, but the latter is good at PR so hides it really well.


So obvs years of derision from the tory press and opposition from blairites means Corbyn is given a fair hearing. This man, who would have been well within the mainstream of the Labour Party he joined, is now only seen as on the barking left because of people who, like you, want to drive the party to the right as far as they can.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp , did you buy shares in the sell-offs of the public assets? BT? Gas? Electricity?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Academic.He's always laid his cards on the table even when he identified as an anarchist.  Hes a mixed bag tbh, excellent on terrorism and on the far right personally I dont understand the vote Tory stuff. He came to interview me as part of his Phd and I spent a fascinating three hours with him chatting. Excellent company despite our political disagreements and a nice bloke.


Ex mainstay of p&p here too. I did a few articles with him on the BNP.


----------



## LDC (Nov 21, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Academic.He's always laid his cards on the table even when he identified as an anarchist.  Hes a mixed bag tbh, excellent on terrorism and on the far right personally I dont understand the vote Tory stuff. He came to interview me as part of his Phd and I spent a fascinating three hours with him chatting. Excellent company despite our political disagreements and a nice bloke.



Ahhhh, I know who you mean. I met him in passing a few times over the years, always really liked him and appreciated his perspectives on stuff. A bit surprised he's voting Tory. But maybe only a bit!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

It was a surprise when he went over to the dark side but looking back lots of signs were there


----------



## teuchter (Nov 21, 2019)

Were they banned or did they skulk off when they no longer conformed with the groupthink?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Were they banned or did they skulk off when they no longer conformed with the groupthink?


no


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 21, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I'm having a great Alan Moore week so far.
> 
> View attachment 190500
> 
> That's from 2016 but got dug up by some publication this week. Nails it IMO.



Hmm. Interesting but I think Alan is forgetting his work on Superman and Batman, back in the day. Ok, there's Watchmen with some very dubious superhero characters (see Rorschach) in it but none of them are BAME (afaicr). In trying to skewer the ubermensch in Watchmen and Miracleman, BAME characters were relegated to the sidelines. 

And in fairness to comic book creators in the Golden and Silver Age, quite a lot of the artist and writers (Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, Bob Kane, Siegel & Schuster) were Jewish. Not exactly flag wavers for the white supremacists, surely?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 21, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> This is just shitposting isn’t it? Ignore the disruptive and dishonest twat, it’s being stupid on purpose.


Doing quite a good job of it though.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Were they banned or did they skulk off when they no longer conformed with the groupthink?


One of the benefits of such tight 'groupthink' is the complete lack of disagreement, argument, debate or conflict within these threads.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> If the policies are so shit , and if as you say Corbyn's a wanker, how come he and the policies destroyed May's majority so much she had to jump into bed with the DUP last time ?



Because May was more crap


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 21, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Were they banned or did they skulk off when they no longer conformed with the groupthink?



what is the groupthink you believe you’ve identified? Can you provide some examples of it working in practise.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Don Troooomp , did you buy shares in the sell-offs of the public assets? BT? Gas? Electricity?



I have owned shares, but only ones I was given for various reasons.
I have never bought any and the ones I had were sold quickly as I'm not bothered about such things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I have owned shares, but only ones I was given for various reasons.
> I have never bought any and the ones I had were sold quickly as I'm not bothered about such things.


and what were these various reasons?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and what were these various reasons?



All were shit all to do with you


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I have owned shares, but only ones I was given for various reasons.
> I have never bought any and the ones I had were sold quickly as I'm not bothered about such things.


Thank you for clearing that up.

I note you’re not in favour of privatising the NHS further. And yet public ownership, in your estimation, was the source of chaos in rail, the utilities, the Royal Mail, the nationalised industries.  Why do you want chaos in the NHS?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

nice to see cilip weigh in


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> All were shit all to do with you


your vocabulary is as limited as your politics.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2019)

Little bit like the current, completely contradictory tory positions held at the moment on corp tax:
OTOH lowering it yields greater net revenue to be spent on public services
OTO maintaining it 'saves' billions that can be spent on public services

Math


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

Back to the election, and I will be proven correct when he final results come in. 

Best I can see of what's been said so far, it's going to be massively expensive, and the tories are going to land on top of that like a ton of bricks. Yes, Britain needs a lot of affordable housing, but can the target be reached and, will it be worth anything until you control estate agents. The noises about forced buyback of previous sold council housing are great ammo for the tories, regardless of the truth behind the words.
As for hospitals, I think we can all agree they should be in public hands, but not to the exclusion of private care as is being suggested by some - That also applying to schools and leaving the option of private education. 
Private postal services are fine, but the royal mail should be 100% public, and I'm concerned at the thought the internet being in government hands for what should be obvious reasons. However, just in case they aren't, imaging what Trump could do in the US if the internet there was state controlled, and what could happen with a future government here.
State control of the internet is way too dangerous so I totally oppose it, as should everyone else.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 21, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> what is the groupthink you believe you’ve identified? Can you provide some examples of it working in practise.



The view that conservatives are utterly reprehensible 

Search Results for Query: "tory cunt" | urban75 forums

An exception will be made for whoever the mystery ex-poster is, of course.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2019)

teuchter said:


> The view that conservatives are utterly reprehensible
> 
> Search Results for Query: "tory cunt" | urban75 forums
> 
> An exception will be made for whoever the mystery ex-poster is, of course.


Anyone not in there needs to go into the little book.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 21, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Anyone not in there needs to go into the little book.


Do you know who the mystery ex-poster is?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I have owned shares, but only ones I was given for various reasons.



Were they given to you because you sent bitcoin to somebody you met on facebook


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Do you know who the mystery ex-poster is?


No, I'm new round here.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> nice to see cilip weigh in


Don't fuck with librarians.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Anyone not in there needs to go into the little book.


i can't believe there's only 772 occurrences of the phrase going back about 14 years


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Don't fuck with librarians.


yeh cilip will get medieval on them


----------



## Badgers (Nov 21, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Don't fuck with librarians.


I notice a few twitter users had their accounts blocked for setting up versions of this


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Back to the election, and I will be proven correct when he final results come in.


No one here believes the Tories will lose and the result won't prove anything about the reasons for the result. However every post you make proves that you're a fucking pointless cretin. Fuck off, you're not welcome here.


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2019)

And when I say 'here' I mean 'earth'.


----------



## killer b (Nov 21, 2019)

maomao said:


> No one here believes the Tories will lose and the result won't prove anything about the reasons for the result.


I believe the tories (could) lose tbf


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I believe the tories (could) lose tbf


I also believe there is a range of possible results but that's a bit of a complicated notion for the intended audience of that post.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I believe the tories (could) lose tbf



Without question they can fail to get a majority. They will lose seats in some Remain areas. Without that what happens next is hard to guess, though Ed Davey is clearly trying.


----------



## killer b (Nov 21, 2019)

maomao said:


> I also believe there is a range of possible results but that's a bit of a complicated notion for the intended audience of that post.


I'm unsure why any of you are bothering


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2019)

I had a dream that told me what the result would be. Johnson misses out on a majority again, but only by a couple of seats. Labour loses ground, and Corbyn is forced to resign. The lib dems, having gained a few seats, promptly sell out to Johnson for some pathetic concession or other. This coalition lasts about six months until enough yellow tories join the normal tories to make the arrangement redundant. 

We do not leave the EU in 2020.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 21, 2019)

Could there be a Tory/Liberal coalition again if the numbers go that way?
Johnson is off the hook because his so called deal is clearly a mish mash mess, and the price for Swinson is another referendum.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2019)

philosophical said:


> Could there be a Tory/Liberal coalition again if the numbers go that way?
> Johnson is off the hook because his so called deal is clearly a mish mash mess, and the price for Swinson is another referendum.



Obviously don't believe anything Swinson says.


----------



## killer b (Nov 21, 2019)

I doubt they would go for a full coalition, but Davey said explicitly last night that they would support a minority Tory government on a vote-by-vote basis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I doubt they would go for a full coalition, but Davey said explicitly last night that they would support a minority Tory government on a vote-by-vote basis.


every time they pipe up they say something else which makes them look unprincipled opportunists


----------



## killer b (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> every time they pipe up they say something else which makes them look unprincipled opportunists


Do they? I mean, this is the first time they've made it explicit, but it's been the obvious end point of their electoral strategy. I'd say it's a big mis-step to say it out loud now though - it can only increase the flow of anti-tory voters back to Labour.


----------



## strung out (Nov 21, 2019)

philosophical said:


> Could there be a Tory/Liberal coalition again if the numbers go that way?
> Johnson is off the hook because his so called deal is clearly a mish mash mess, and the price for Swinson is another referendum.


It won't be Swinson in charge because she won't be an MP.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> Do they? I mean, this is the first time they've made it explicit, but it's been the obvious end point of their electoral strategy. I'd say it's a big mis-step to say it out loud now though - it can only increase the flow of anti-tory voters back to Labour.


the master criminal always makes one fatal error and theirs was to admit they'd jump into bed with boris johnson


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> Do they? I mean, this is the first time they've made it explicit, but it's been the obvious end point of their electoral strategy. I'd say it's a big mis-step to say it out loud now though - it can only increase the flow of anti-tory voters back to Labour.


It's going to eat right into their tactical voters  - people who i think may have been keeping the lib-dem polling artificially high nationally over the last few weeks. And then they see stuff like this on top of Davey.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

...and help a lot of those Don't Knows -  already tending mostly to labour  - make their mind up.


----------



## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

Yep.

There's not many % left to abandon the BXP but still a good 10% to come off the LibDem polling figures.


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm unsure why any of you are bothering


Bored in queue at Lidl.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Nov 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I believe the tories (could) lose tbf


I decided to put a few bob on the result. The Conservatives are at 1/16. 1/16. One thing I have noticed over the last few elections... the bookies tend to call it correctly.


----------



## killer b (Nov 21, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> I decided to put a few bob on the result. The Conservatives are at 1/16. 1/16. One thing I have noticed over the last few elections... the bookies tend to call it correctly.


you can't have been paying much attention then, they haven't 'called it' since 2015


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Is /was he a member of ukip?


UKIP Red Faction


----------



## kabbes (Nov 21, 2019)

Anything new or unexpected in Labour’s manifesto then?  Everything I’ve skim-read is largely as trailed in advance.  I do like it though.  Best manifesto I can remember in my adult lifetime, at least.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Nov 21, 2019)

Committed anarchist Alan Moore has said he's going to vote for the first time in 40 years. For Labour.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 21, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Anything new or unexpected in Labour’s manifesto then?  Everything I’ve skim-read is largely as trailed in advance.  I do like it though.  Best manifesto I can remember in my adult lifetime, at least.


It's mostly same stuff as 2017. Weird to see news sites leading with labour announce freeze on state pension age increases past 66 when this has been its policy for nearly three years (maybe longer, fuck knows)


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> your vocabulary is as limited as your politics.



It's excrement all to do with you


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> It's excrement all to do with you


your politics are excrement.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> your politics are excrement.



But my vocabulary is widening. Fornicate off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> But my vocabulary is widening. Fornicate off.


yeh that's about the limit of your political analysis.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 21, 2019)

Labour's most avowedly socialist manifesto in generations.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

I believe the way to win the next election is sensible, well presented policies that work so a Labour government can take care of the welfare system and get a lot done on the most serious issues such as the climate crisis. 
Labour can't do anything while they're led by a useless pillock and promote tired old far left ideals so few people want.
As for government control of the internet - that's as fucking stupid as it is terrible and dangerous.
The idea is repulsive.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> As for government control of the internet - that's as fucking stupid as it is terrible and dangerous.



I think they were asked if nationalised internet would mean controlling access to porn etc and answer came there none.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I believe the way to win the next election is sensible, well presented policies that work so a Labour government can take care of the welfare system and get a lot done on the most serious issues such as the climate crisis.
> Labour can't do anything while they're led by a useless pillock and promote tired old far left ideals so few people want.
> As for government control of the internet - that's as fucking stupid as it is terrible and dangerous.
> The idea is repulsive.



The government already has control of the internet if it wants it, or do you imagine that Virgin Media are going to take to the barricades to defend your privacy and data access?

Out of curiosity, you drone on a lot about 'sensible policies' - so what are they in your mind?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I believe the way to win the next election is sensible, well presented policies that work so a Labour government can take care of the welfare system and get a lot done on the most serious issues such as the climate crisis.
> Labour can't do anything while they're led by a useless pillock and promote tired old far left ideals so few people want.
> As for government control of the internet - that's as fucking stupid as it is terrible and dangerous.
> The idea is repulsive.



You have made your view on Corbyn very clear, over & over & over & over again.

We are 3 weeks from the GE, there's not going to be a change of leadership in that period, what will be, will be, so shut the fuck up, you boring twat.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I believe the way to win the next election is sensible, well presented policies that work so a Labour government can take care of the welfare system and get a lot done on the most serious issues such as the climate crisis.
> Labour can't do anything while they're led by a useless pillock and promote tired old far left ideals so few people want.
> As for government control of the internet - that's as fucking stupid as it is terrible and dangerous.
> The idea is repulsive.


Oh just fuck off back to 1997 already. Things can only get better eh? Don't bet on it.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

Scrapping the planned rise in the pension age beyond 66 and reviewing the retirement age of those in hard manual jobs
Introducing a second homes tax
Reversing inheritance tax cuts and imposing VAT on private school fees
Giving EU nationals living in UK the automatic right to stay
Free broadband for all, delivered by part-nationalising BT
£75bn to build 150,000 new council and social homes a year, within five years
A £3bn plan to offer adults in England free access to retraining
A pledge to reduce all primary school classes to fewer than 30 children
An increase in the length of statutory maternity pay from nine months to a year
Free personal at-home care in England for over-65s most in need of it
Pension age - good
Second home tax - good, and it'll fuck estate agents over
Inheritance tax - carefully
VAT on private school fees - The idea is fine but the damage it will do to Labour's election chances will mean it's a stupid thing to include. Where did Corbyn go to school?
EU nationals - The idea is fine as long as the EU returns the favour, but the press will kill labour on it
Government controlled internet. OMG!

I'll get to the rest later


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> I think they were asked if nationalised internet would mean controlling access to porn etc and answer came there none.



Does that apply to all future governments?
Are you happy to see all your data government controlled?


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Does that apply to all future governments?
> Are you happy to see all your data government controlled?



Ever heard of RIPA?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> You have made your view on Corbyn very clear, over & over & over & over again.
> 
> We are 3 weeks from the GE, there's not going to be a change of leadership in that period, what will be, will be, so shut the fuck up, you boring twat.



It should have happened when Johnson got into number 10, but it'll have to wait until after the election now. Safly, Corbyn and his idiot mates have cost Brexit and years of tory shit.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Does that apply to all future governments?
> Are you happy to see all your data government controlled?


I'm not in support of the policy  I'm by far not a Labour supporter, that's something I'm very clear on. Have never been a Labour supporter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> I'm not in support of the policy  I'm by far not a Labour supporter, that's something I'm very clear on. Have never been a Labour supporter.


he's always saying people are labour supporters, he's not one to let the facts get in the way


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Does that apply to all future governments?
> Are you happy to see all your data government controlled?


ok I'll bite. There would need to be safeguards in place - distance between govt ministers and the body running the network, 'independent' monitoring boards, that kind of thing. But that's really no different from what there is with private monopolies operating the networks, and at the very least there is a chance of democratic accountability with a state-owned system. 

And if you think your data is safe now, you're wrong. Assume you're being spied on and act from there.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And if you think your data is safe now, you're wrong. Assume you're being spied on and act from there.



Maybe he already is. He's actually planning to get Corbyn into government by force, and what we are being treated to is mere cover for this plan.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

elbows said:


> Ever heard of RIPA?



Ever heard of GCHQ?
Ever heard of a law being changed or ignored?

Oh, the PM has been doing a bit of that over the last couple of months, and future PMs could do it again, but with control of your internet.
Are you really telling the world you support government control of the net?


----------



## YouSir (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Ever heard of GCHQ?
> Ever heard of a law being changed or ignored?
> 
> Oh, the PM has been doing a bit of that over the last couple of months, and future PMs could do it again, but with control of your internet.
> Are you really telling the world you support government control of the net?



I'm telling the world that you really don't understand how the internet works.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ok I'll bite. There would need to be safeguards in place



That's fine until someone decides not to play nice.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Ever heard of GCHQ?
> Ever heard of a law being changed or ignored?
> 
> Oh, the PM has been doing a bit of that over the last couple of months, and future PMs could do it again, but with control of your internet.
> Are you really telling the world you support government control of the net?


Could you clarify what you mean by 'government control of the net'? I currently connect to the net via private company Plusnet. Are Plusnet thus 'in control over my internet'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Pension age - good
> Second home tax - good, and it'll fuck estate agents over
> Inheritance tax - carefully
> VAT on private school fees - The idea is fine but the damage it will do to Labour's election chances will mean it's a stupid thing to include. Where did Corbyn go to school?
> ...


please don't


----------



## YouSir (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> That's fine until someone decides not to play nice.



At which point you think Virgin Media will stand in the way of the state?


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Ever heard of GCHQ?
> Ever heard of a law being changed or ignored?
> 
> Oh, the PM has been doing a bit of that over the last couple of months, and future PMs could do it again, but with control of your internet.
> Are you really telling the world you support government control of the net?



I wasnt mentioning RIPA with the idea that it protects us, rather the idea that it already enables in law plenty of spooky internet shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

YouSir said:


> I'm telling the world that you really don't understand how the internet works.


it's been added to the long, long list of things he hasn't a clue about


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's been added to the long, long list of things he hasn't a clue about



Dont tell him that all traffic is already routed via Corbyns garden shed, we'll never hear the end of it. Eye the gnomes with suspicion!


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

*How Iran's Government Shut Off the Internet*

*How the Iranian Government Shut Off the Internet*
*After years of centralizing internet control, Iran pulled the plug on connectivity for nearly all of its citizens*

*Take over the internet, then do what the fuck you like with it, just like Iran. *


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's been added to the long, long list of things he hasn't a clue about



It seems you haven't been reading the news


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I believe the way to win the next election is sensible, well presented policies that work so a Labour government can take care of the welfare system and get a lot done on the most serious issues such as the climate crisis.
> Labour can't do anything while they're led by a useless pillock and promote tired old far left ideals so few people want.
> As for government control of the internet - that's as fucking stupid as it is terrible and dangerous.
> The idea is repulsive.



We know what you believe. Do you understand that nobody agrees?

Do you see any dangers in private companies controlling the Internet? Do you understand that in any case the Internet is under the sole control of one provider right now?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> *How Iran's Government Shut Off the Internet*
> 
> *How the Iranian Government Shut Off the Internet*
> *After years of centralizing internet control, Iran pulled the plug on connectivity for nearly all of its citizens*
> ...



Labour are going to turn us into Iran? Not Venezuela?


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> *How Iran's Government Shut Off the Internet*
> 
> *How the Iranian Government Shut Off the Internet*
> *After years of centralizing internet control, Iran pulled the plug on connectivity for nearly all of its citizens*
> ...



A 2011 article:



> In Britain there are two pieces of legislation which give the Government power to order the suspension of the internet and, in theory, bring about web armageddon. The Civil Contingencies Act and the 2003 Communications Act can both be used to suspend internet services, either by ordering internet service providers (ISPs) to shut down their operations or by closing internet exchanges. Under the protocol of the Communications Act, the switch-flicking would be done by the Culture Secretary. In the eyes of the legislature, Jeremy Hunt is the man invested with the power to send us back to the dark ages.



Could the UK Government shut down the web?


----------



## YouSir (Nov 21, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> We know what you believe. Do you understand that nobody agrees?
> 
> Do you see any dangers in private companies controlling the Internet? Do you understand that in any case the Internet is under the sole control of one provider right now?



He's been asked that question numerous times, he has no response, just the endless repetition of his own fantasy talking points. Don't know why he's worried about the government taking over the internet, he's already blind to most of the info and debate on it anyway. Bit like the model Reddit poster.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> *How Iran's Government Shut Off the Internet*
> 
> *How the Iranian Government Shut Off the Internet*
> *After years of centralizing internet control, Iran pulled the plug on connectivity for nearly all of its citizens*
> ...


and you think that's going to happen here
when the link from europe to the united states runs across britain
tell me when you've engaged brain


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and you think that's going to happen here
> when the link from europe to the united states runs across britain
> tell me when you've engaged brain



Routing can be quite sophisticated.

I would expect most states to switch off their domestic internet if they felt that the state and regime was under serious threat of being overthrown. We are no exception, except that such a scenario is not currently considered likely to happen here. Legislation is in place for such a possibility though, as things can always unravel quickly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation vs privatisation: the public view | YouGov
> 
> Bollocks. Most people, rightly, don't want the police and army in private hands


from your link



Don Troooomp said:


> Seems people don't want the police and army nationalised


you clearly don't know the difference between privatising something and nationalising something


----------



## andysays (Nov 21, 2019)

I wish someone would shut off Don Troooomp's internet


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

elbows said:


> Routing can be quite sophisticated.
> 
> I would expect most states to switch off their domestic internet if they felt that the state and regime was under serious threat of being overthrown. We are no exception, except that such a scenario is not currently considered likely to happen here. Legislation is in place for such a possibility though, as things can always unravel quickly.


yeh legislation is in place. but things would have to be pretty fucking bad before anything like that was tried


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> I wish someone would shut off Don Troooomp's internet


nothing a cable tie wouldn't sort out


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> nothing a cable tie wouldn't sort out



I'm thinking more of a Columbian necktie.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Does that apply to all future governments?
> Are you happy to see all your data government controlled?



If you think your data isn't already controlled I have a bridge to sell you.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Labour are going to turn us into Iran? Not Venezuela?



They're going to invent Iranezuela. In Surrey.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh legislation is in place. but things would have to be pretty fucking bad before anything like that was tried



Yeah, it would have to be near to the end game before such things were done. Because of huge backlash, gigantic economic consequences, governments own use of internet, loss of distraction/entertainment for the masses. Not to mention it being an obvious sign of desperation that would embolden the regimes opponents and alert everyone that big stuff is going down.

Under certain scenarios its easy to imagine more limited forms of shutdown, either certain sites or regions. I dont take the global internet as a given either, could easily see that ending if global relations carry on their ugly 21st century journey in the manner to which we are becoming accustomed.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 21, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> I have a bridge to sell you.



Haven't heard this one in years


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> I'm thinking more of a Columbian necktie.


it has the advantage of novelty on these shores


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They're going to invent Iranezuela. In Surrey.


ruddy yurts' second wife is iranezuela patterson, who lives in surrey


----------



## Wilf (Nov 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Labour are going to turn us into Iran? Not Venezuela?


Which one has the best weather? I imagine it's quite humid in Venezuela, bit more arid in Iran. Very real issues if you suffered an adrenaline overdose in 1982.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> ruddy yurts' second wife is iranezuela patterson, who lives in surrey



I heard her cattery was cover for something far more sinister.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Which one has the best weather? I imagine it's quite humid in Venezuela, bit more arid in Iran. Very real issues if you suffered an adrenaline overdose in 1982.



I suffered from traffic cone hotline overdose in 1992, does that count?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

elbows said:


> I heard her cattery was cover for something far more sinister.


just so, a business so base and dastardly that on a family boards like these the real activity carried on there cannot be mentioned or even significantly alluded to


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> *How Iran's Government Shut Off the Internet*
> 
> *How the Iranian Government Shut Off the Internet*
> *After years of centralizing internet control, Iran pulled the plug on connectivity for nearly all of its citizens*
> ...


The Internet was privately run in Iran (except for one semi state owned ISP out of half a dozen) when the government shut it down you clueless twat.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> just so, a business so base and dastardly that on a family boards like these the real activity carried on there cannot be mentioned or even significantly alluded to



The less said about that the better!


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

maomao said:


> The Internet was privately run in Iran (except for one semi state owned ISP out of half a dozen) when the government shut it down you clueless twat.



Egypt too, this quote is from the article I posted about UK government net shutdown powers:



> Shorty after going offline Vodafone Egypt issued a statement explaining: "Under Egyptian legislation the authorities have the right to issue such an order and we are obliged to comply with it."


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> I wish someone would shut off Don Troooomp's internet


Or his windpipe.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Just getting round to my first skim of the Labour manifesto.

I see they mention new nuclear, with no detail other than a desire to get some new nuclear stuff at Wylfa.

They attempt to balance their Trident commitment with 'Labour will also actively lead multilateral efforts under our obligations to the Non-Proliferation Treaty to create a nuclear-free world.'

At least this energy angle got a mention:



> Over the past three decades, Britain has reduced its emissions at the expense of domestic industry by offshoring production. This is an accounting trick, not a solution. It does not protect the climate, is unfair to other countries and it damages jobs and communities at home.


----------



## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Scrapping the planned rise in the pension age beyond 66 and reviewing the retirement age of those in hard manual jobs
> Introducing a second homes tax
> Reversing inheritance tax cuts and imposing VAT on private school fees
> Giving EU nationals living in UK the automatic right to stay
> ...



I started reading that thinking it was your list of "sensible policies"....


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Ethical foreign policy 2.0.



> Conduct an audit of the impact of Britain’s colonial legacy to understand our contribution to the dynamics of violence and insecurity across regions previously under British colonial rule.


----------



## treelover (Nov 21, 2019)

Priti Patel says Tory government not to blame for poverty in UK

Former Tobacco Industry lobbyist Priti Patel doesn't believe the govt, her Govt, is reponsible for poverty in the UK, thats it's a societal issue and LA's have to take some of the blame, never mind they get most of the funding from C/G, and of course Osbourne and Cameron and Clegg savaged that and benefits and later adminstrations continued the cuts, etc.

Not sure how much impact it will have though.


----------



## elbows (Nov 21, 2019)

Austerity is beyond reproach


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

dp


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

treelover said:


> Priti Patel says Tory government not to blame for poverty in UK
> 
> Former Tobacco Industry lobbyist Priti Patel doesn't believe the govt, her Govt, is reponsible for poverty in the UK, thats it's a societal issue and LA's have to take some of the blame, never mind they get most of the funding from C/G, and of course Osbourne and Cameron and Clegg savaged that and benefits and later adminstrations continued the cuts, etc.
> 
> Not sure how much impact it will have though.


to be fair _her_ government under the nefandous johnson has only been in office a matter of months.

but her unspeakable party has been in office far far too long


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> VAT on private school fees - The idea is fine but the damage it will do to Labour's election chances will mean it's a stupid thing to include.


Ah, that’s what “sensible socialism” means? - Don’t charge VAT on things that the private school FPs in the media pay for their own children. 




> Where did Corbyn go to school?


A school he wants the current parents to pay VAT on the fees for.



> Government controlled internet. OMG


Idiot.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> to be fair _her_ government under the nefandous johnson has only been in office a matter of months.
> 
> but her unspeakable party has been in office far far too long


If there were any logic to her contention, it would seem that she's positing capitalism as the cause of poverty.


----------



## Smangus (Nov 21, 2019)

Some sterling work done here by Led By Donkeys 

Farage wants to sue us. And he's using EU law to do it ‍♀️


----------



## philosophical (Nov 21, 2019)

Priti Patel is said to be 'the person who will unplug your life support system in order to recharge her phone.'


----------



## Kuke (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Because May was more crap


She got 42% vote share. Similar to Blair and Thatcher in their hey days. 

Any more pearls of wisdom?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

philosophical said:


> Priti Patel is said to be 'the person who will unplug your life support system in order to recharge her phone.'


Nah I think she'd just unplug your life support because she's like that


----------



## chilango (Nov 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Nah I think she'd just unplug your life support because she's like that


It's a big assumption to make that she'd notice you tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's a big assumption to make that she'd notice you tbh.


very true


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Because May was more crap


It's incisive in depth analysis like this that's given you a reputation as a great political thinker.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> It should have happened when Johnson got into number 10, but it'll have to wait until after the election now. Safly, Corbyn and his idiot mates have cost Brexit and years of tory shit.



When Labour was on 40%+ and tories around 20%? How would that have made any sense whatsoever?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> It should have happened when Johnson got into number 10, but it'll have to wait until after the election now. Safly, Corbyn and his idiot mates have cost Brexit and years of tory shit.



Reminder that Corbyn called for article 50 the morning of the ref so we'd be an entire 6 months further along if he'd been in charge.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Reminder that Corbyn called for article 50 the morning of the ref so we'd be an entire 6 months further along if he'd been in charge.


He did no such thing - as has been pointed out here and elsewhere over and over for three fucking years now.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 21, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He did no such thing - as has been pointed out here and elsewhere over and over for three fucking years now.



Seems fairly conclusive.



> “The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union.
> 
> “Obviously there has to be strategy but the whole point of the referendum was that the public would be asked their opinion. They’ve given their opinion. It is up for parliament to now act on that opinion.



He'd have done better if the PLP hadn't shat the bed the day after mind.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 21, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Seems fairly conclusive.
> 
> 
> 
> He'd have done better if the PLP hadn't shat the bed the day after mind.



Literally what he said in a live interview was:

“The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union.

If he had put the now at the start of that second sentence it changes things immensely and brings it closer to what he shortly after clarified was his meaning, that now the vote has been held and the results know that it's clear article 50 has to be triggered - that the referendum cannot and should not be ignored. And remember, this was at the time of the first flurry of non-binding rubbish so it was important to make this very clear.

"I may not have put that as well as I should have done," he told presenter Evan Davis.

"The view I was putting was that Article 50 will be invoked at some point. I did not mean it should be invoked on Friday morning and we should rush over to Brussels and start negotiating things away because clearly the negotiations are going to be very long and very complicated."


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 21, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Literally what he said in a live interview was:
> 
> “The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union.
> 
> ...



Ah yes, clarifications and rewording.

I love his policies but there has been so much of that it gets quite hard to work out what he and the others actually want sometimes.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 21, 2019)

i think they meant to re-tweet BJ's tweet, not the response to it

oops


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 21, 2019)

They didn't even have the bottle to put someone on Newsnight to argue against Labour's manifesto with Barry Gardiner. Spineless cunts.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 21, 2019)

I really like the Labour manifesto...as far as parliamentary politics go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 21, 2019)

If the tories suggested government control if the internet, members if this forum would go apeshit.
Russia is now insisting all new phones have local software, China controls the population with QQ, and many other governments have used internet access to control their population's ability to communicate.
It can be controlled a lot more effectively if it's run by the state.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> If the tories suggested government control if the internet, members if this forum would go apeshit.
> Russia is now insisting all new phones have local software, China controls the population with QQ, and many other governments have used internet access to control their population's ability to communicate.
> It can be controlled a lot more effectively if it's run by the state.


Mate you're a walking advert for state control of the internet. Also it's public ownership of the fixed line network to supply broadband you absolute knobber


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 21, 2019)

Weird that all these people going 'oh no state control of the internet' but not oh no state control of the post


----------



## N_igma (Nov 21, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Mate you're a walking advert for state control of the internet. Also it's public ownership of the fixed line network to supply broadband you absolute knobber



There’s no point arguing with cunts like that. They’re just trolls looking a rise out of people.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 21, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> VAT on private school fees - The idea is fine but the damage it will do to Labour's election chances will mean it's a stupid thing to include. Where did Corbyn go to school?


I imagine parents and staff at Harrow and Radley will now be balancing their lifelong commitment to International Maoist-Red-Army-Faction-Terrorist-Corbynism against the financial consequences of this proposal.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 21, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I imagine parents and staff at Harrow and Radley will now be balancing their lifelong commitment to International Maoist-Red-Army-Faction-Terrorist-Corbynism against the financial consequences of this proposal.


Note to Don Troooomp (In the exasperated tone of Stewart Lee): don't Like that post, _I DON'T REALLY THINK HE'S AN INTERNATIONAL MAOIST RED ARMY FACTION TERRORISM FAN. _


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 22, 2019)

Wilf said:


> I imagine parents and staff at Harrow and Radley will now be balancing their lifelong commitment to International Maoist-Red-Army-Faction-Terrorist-Corbynism against the financial consequences of this proposal.



Hardly matters - The press and politicians will hit on any Labour MPs that went to private schools and worse, use labour MPs that send their kids to private schools as examples of hypocritical cunts.

The idea of taxing them is fine, but Labour can't do it without losing votes unless they stop all of their people using private schools.
Of course I'm sure no Labour front benchers have kids in private schools - oops
Even May, and she was serious crap, managed to attack Labour on that one, but Corbyn is far too fucking stupid to realise, even when he's been told.
Idiocy like this is losing votes and giving the fucking tories an easy ride.
All of this will be pulled apart when Labour gets smashed at the polls in a few weeks, then hopefully so.e common fucking sense will find its way in and the idiotic policies dumped when Corbyn goes. I want the tories out and a Labour government in, but there's zero chance until stupidity gets left behind.
Yes, I know I'm not left wing enough for some here, but left wing is allowing the tories, especially the tory right, every opportunity to fuck up Britain.
The Labour left has learnt nothing from their fuck ups of old, and that means a tory government.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 22, 2019)

You fucking wrong un. no one cares


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 22, 2019)

Edited. Fuck it. And fuck off don troomp you boring twat.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 22, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> If the tories suggested government control if the internet, members if this forum would go apeshit.
> Russia is now insisting all new phones have local software, China controls the population with QQ, and many other governments have used internet access to control their population's ability to communicate.
> It can be controlled a lot more effectively if it's run by the state.



The conservative government literally just spent 9 years trying to put in a privatised porn filter, and has spent at least that long not understanding how encryption works.

The. Internet. Is. Already. Controlled.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 22, 2019)

Can't troooomp just be banned? Impossible to have anything approaching a decent discussion with him around. His stupidity is so dense it has its own gravitational pull that drags you in and makes you respond to the cunt, then you're an unwitting accomplice in his mission to dumb down and bore.


----------



## tim (Nov 22, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Can't troooomp just be banned? Impossible to have anything approaching a decent discussion with him around. His stupidity is so dense it has its own gravitational pull that drags you in and makes you respond to the cunt, then you're an unwitting accomplice in his mission to dumb down and bore.



I doubt that I'd get much gratification from an indecent discussion with him, either.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 22, 2019)

tim said:


> I doubt that I'd get much gratification from an indecent discussion with him, either.


He saves that for when he wants to do some grooming


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Hardly matters - The press and politicians will hit on any Labour MPs that went to private schools and worse, use labour MPs that send their kids to private schools as examples of hypocritical cunts.
> 
> The idea of taxing them is fine, but Labour can't do it without losing votes unless they stop all of their people using private schools.
> Of course I'm sure no Labour front benchers have kids in private schools - oops
> ...


When you hit on someone you hope for a sexual relationship with them


----------



## NoXion (Nov 22, 2019)

Don't do or propose anything that the press might not like. That approach worked so well under New Labour, right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

NoXion said:


> Don't do or propose anything that the press might not like. That approach worked so well under New Labour, right?


New Labour, who abolished the cycle of boom and bust


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> When you hit on someone you hope for a sexual relationship with them


He probably wants to groom them too the sick man


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> He probably wants to groom them too the sick man


Should start with grooming himself, it's likely weeks if not months since he washed and shaved


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 22, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> . His stupidity is so dense it has its own gravitational pull that drags you in and makes you respond to the cunt, then you're an unwitting accomplice in his mission to dumb down and bore.


I know. I had a response ready to go, but I just thought, what’s the point?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 22, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Hardly matters - The press and politicians will hit on any Labour MPs that went to private schools and worse, use labour MPs that send their kids to private schools as examples of hypocritical cunts.
> 
> The idea of taxing them is fine, but Labour can't do it without losing votes unless they stop all of their people using private schools.
> Of course I'm sure no Labour front benchers have kids in private schools - oops
> ...



So you are advocating only doing what the press/media will allow. The two huge problems with this are firstly that it simply entrenches and reinforces the existing wasteful, anti-social and all too often inhuman situation we 'enjoy' at the moment. Secondly, it places the Tory party institutionally at the head of the country; in your scenario they truly are the natural party of government, so why vote for the Labour second eleven alternative when you can have the Conservative full fat real thing.

It would seem that your 'sensible socialism' is nothing more than ineffective Conservatism lite. Of course I could be wrong but in the absence of any detail from you beyond a few sweary denunciations of Corbyn, his mates, the Labour Left, the left and the far left, it's hard to see anything else.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## maomao (Nov 22, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Can't troooomp just be banned? Impossible to have anything approaching a decent discussion with him around. His stupidity is so dense it has its own gravitational pull that drags you in and makes you respond to the cunt, then you're an unwitting accomplice in his mission to dumb down and bore.


Well the faq says the most important rule of the boards is don't be a dick and he's a total fucking dick. I agree we should at least be able to ban his idiocy from the politics forums.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 22, 2019)

The Govt controls the internet anyway, how else do you think they do all the spying?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 22, 2019)

We all know why trooomp doesn't want the government to know what he's doing on the internet (see previous posts re: grooming) but he's misguided on this one.

It's the implicit assumption that the likes of Virgin and BT would go toe to toe with the government to stop the authorities finding out what he does on facebook when he's using his 13 year old future boyband member profile that I find most difficult to understand.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

DT has had his chance to enter the debate and offer up some serious ideas that can be engaged with and discussed. 

Given he’s not interested can we just move on and ignore him now. I’m not in favour of banning idiots I am in favour of zero engagement, replies and moving on to better discussions/rows/punch ups


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 22, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not in favour of banning idiots I am in favour of zero engagement, replies and moving on to better discussions/rows/punch ups



Well I'm fucking not, outside now!


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Well I'm fucking not, outside now!



That’s better....


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Weird that all these people going 'oh no state control of the internet' but not oh no state control of the post


Or for that matter, the navy, the police, or anything else the state traditionally runs. The moment you concede any natural monopoly to state ownership, you've conceded the principle, and it's just a question of where the line's drawn. Personally, I'd nationalize all natural monopolies -- if there can be no competition, unaccountable private control's oppressive -- so on this, bravo Labour.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Or for that matter, the navy, the police, or anything else the state traditionally runs. The moment you concede any natural monopoly to state ownership, you've conceded the principle, and it's just a question of where the line's drawn. Personally, I'd nationalize all natural monopolies -- if there can be no competition, unaccountable private control's oppressive -- so on this, bravo Labour.



There are a lot of nebulous terms flying around here. 'State ownership' 'nationalisation' 'public control'. It is very important that Labour spell out what they mean by these terms. Previous nationalisations - where the board remained largely the same, where worker control or even a say in decision making were firmly off limits and where the culture of organizations remained unchanged  - and where a cleavage emerged between the shopfloor and the unions are all lessons and warnings from history. 

On the general point you are correct private ownership of monopolies makes no societal or economic sense.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 22, 2019)

There seems to be a hint of 'blue labour's' (sorry)  attempt to breathe some life into the corpse of guild socialism in those economic suggestions of various forms of socialisation not trad nationalism. At first glance anyway, haven't had time to dig deeper yet but will be looking for that.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> There seems to be a hint of 'blue labour's' (sorry)  attempt to breathe some life into guild socialism in those economic suggestions of various forms of socialisation not trad nationalism. At first glance anyway, haven't had time to dig deeper yet but will be looking for that.



The manifesto is silent on the exact nature of what is proposed. Terms are interchangeable and bandied about sloppily by Labour types. 

I accept these are complex matters and that negotiation (hopefully starting with the appropriate unions) is necessary. But, it feels _airy. _


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 22, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The manifesto is silent on the exact nature of what is proposed. Terms are interchangeable and bandied about sloppily by Labour types.
> 
> I accept these are complex matters and that negotiation (hopefully starting with the appropriate unions) is necessary. But, it feels _airy. _


Yup, I’ve had a glance through and it’s very light on detail. Like I said I expected, it reads like “eventually” and “as far as possible”, and little more than that. I’ll need to read in more depth, but there’s nothing about workplace democracy that wouldn’t fit in the Limehouse Declaration.

It’s better than being the North Atlantic Singapore under Johnson, for sure, but it’s very timid, moderate social democracy. Keynes wouldn’t bat an eyelid.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 22, 2019)

I know size isn't everything, but raised a smile nonetheless.


----------



## maomao (Nov 22, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> North Atlantic Singapore under Johnson,


Wouldn't mind Singapore's public housing system tbh.


----------



## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I know size isn't everything, but raised a smile nonetheless.
> 
> View attachment 190706



Presumably that's passport sized?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I know size isn't everything, but raised a smile nonetheless.
> 
> View attachment 190706


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Nov 22, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I know size isn't everything, but raised a smile nonetheless.
> 
> View attachment 190706



Boris would need a JCB to lift his little black book


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 22, 2019)

_Mr Farage also said his party favoured making civil servants sign a "pledge of political neutrality" and devising "political guidelines" for the Supreme Court.
_
Wow please tell me I am not the only person who doesn't think this in an incredibly bad idea even for him


----------



## maomao (Nov 22, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> _Mr Farage also said his party favoured making civil servants sign a "pledge of political neutrality" and devising "political guidelines" for the Supreme Court.
> _
> Wow please tell me I am not the only person who doesn't think this in an incredibly bad idea even for him



When your only actual policy is in the name of your party then I think a manifesto is just for appearances.


----------



## 2hats (Nov 22, 2019)

maomao said:


> When your only actual policy is in the name of your party then I think a manifesto is just for appearances.


Does a get-rich-quick scheme, registered as a PLC, masquerading as a political party need a manifesto when a 'contract' might suffice?


----------



## Argonia (Nov 22, 2019)

передовой


----------



## Libertad (Nov 22, 2019)

Шаги малыша


----------



## gosub (Nov 22, 2019)




----------



## Badgers (Nov 22, 2019)




----------



## Buddy Bradley (Nov 22, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2019)

wrong thread Badgers, that goes here: Shitposting/'Parafiction' Watch


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 22, 2019)

I don’t even know what that is. Is it saying he isn’t a plant or is? Either way, it’s QT. It’s a show. There’s nothing authentic about it.


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t even know what that is. Is it saying he isn’t a plant or is? Either way, it’s QT. It’s a show. There’s nothing authentic about it.


Zands is a pisstake account - in this case he's taking the piss out of all the people on twitter who go _OMG He's an obvious tory plant _whenever someone is rude to a labour politician on QT.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> Zands is a pisstake account - in this case he's taking the piss out of all the people on twitter who go _OMG He's an obvious tory plant _whenever someone is rude to a labour politician on QT.


Ah, OK. In that case I care even less. Which was already very little.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 22, 2019)

maomao said:


> When your only actual policy is in the name of your party then I think a manifesto is just for appearances.



If your leader isn't even running as an MP and you're contesting fewer than half the seats available then presenting a manifesto of policies you'll enact when in government is almost, not quite but almost, as ridiculous as Jo Swinson calling herself a candidate to be the next Prime Minister.


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If your leader isn't even running as an MP and you're contesting fewer than half the seats available then presenting a manifesto of policies you'll enact when in government is almost, not quite but almost, as ridiculous as Jo Swinson calling herself a candidate to be the next Prime Minister.


not an SNP voter then?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 22, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If your leader isn't even running as an MP and you're contesting fewer than half the seats available then presenting a manifesto of policies you'll enact when in government is almost, not quite but almost, as ridiculous as Jo Swinson calling herself a candidate to be the next Prime Minister.



Except it's not a manifesto according to Farage, it's a 'contract with the people'. 



> The former UKIP leader, who is not standing as a candidate in the election, said manifestos were a "means of telling people what they want to hear without ever having the genuine desire to implement them".
> 
> Instead, he said his party would be making a "contract with the people" containing a "targeted set of deliverable pledges".
> 
> Brexit Party promises 'political revolution'


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 22, 2019)

belboid said:


> not an SNP voter then?


Nicola Sturgeon isn’t calling herself a candidate for UK Prime Minister. Nor is the SNP running for UK government. But it is clear what their intentions are. 

What isn’t at all clear is what Farage thinks he can do. I’ve looked at his statements. They don’t really make sense.


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Nicola Sturgeon isn’t calling herself a candidate for UK Prime Minister. Nor is the SNP running for UK government.


neither if farage or the BP!



> But it is clear what their intentions are.
> 
> What isn’t at all clear is what Farage thinks he can do. I’ve looked at his statements. They don’t really make sense.


just to keep his name in the headlines, surely?


----------



## maomao (Nov 22, 2019)

If it's really 21 pages long I bet there's a lot of pictures.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 22, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There are a lot of nebulous terms flying around here. 'State ownership' 'nationalisation' 'public control'. It is very important that Labour spell out what they mean by these terms. Previous nationalisations - where the board remained largely the same, where worker control or even a say in decision making were firmly off limits and where the culture of organizations remained unchanged  - and where a cleavage emerged between the shopfloor and the unions are all lessons and warnings from history.
> 
> On the general point you are correct private ownership of monopolies makes no societal or economic sense.


Yes, I can't say I've high hopes about the exact model being genuinely worker led or internally democratic, which is one of the many reasons I'm ambivalent about state ownership. I expect another quango, or things carrying on much as before, just with government holding the capital. (But who knows: pleasant surprise from a party always welcome.) It should, at least, see profits reinvested, which is more than enough to make it a lesser evil.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 22, 2019)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 190732



Have Snopes fact checked this for clarity?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 22, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Have Snopes fact checked this for clarity?


Has gavin mcinnes?


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

Nice noisy crowd outside the octagon.  Can be clearly heard inside apparently. Disappointing lack of squirrel referencing going on though.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Yes, I can't say I've high hopes about the exact model being genuinely worker led or internally democratic, which is one of the many reasons I'm ambivalent about state ownership. I expect another quango, or things carrying on much as before, just with government holding the capital. (But who knows: pleasant surprise from a party always welcome.) It should, at least, see profits reinvested, which is more than enough to make it a lesser evil.



I’ve been reading the 1974 manifesto today (as you do). It has this to say on state ownership:

“The British people, both as workers and consumers, must have more control over the powerful private forces that at present dominate our economic life. To this end we shall:

7. Sustain and expand industrial development and exports and bring about the re-equipment necessary for this purpose through the powers we shall take in a new INDUSTRY ACT and through the Planning Agreement system which will allow Government to plan with industry more effectively.

8. Wherever we give direct aid to a company out of public funds we shall in return reserve the right to take a share of the ownership of the company.

In addition to our plans set out in point 5 above for taking into common ownership land required for development, we shall substantially extend PUBLIC ENTERPRISE by taking mineral rights. We shall also take shipbuilding, shiprepairing and marine engineering, ports, the manufacture of airframes and aeroengines into public ownership and control. But we shall not confine the extension of the public sector to the loss-making and subsidised industries. We shall also take over profitable sections or individual firms in those industries where a public holding is essential to enable the Government to control prices, stimulate investment, encourage exports, create employment, protect workers and consumers from the activities of irresponsible multi-national companies, and to plan the national economy in the national interest. We shall therefore include in this operation, sections of pharmaceuticals, road haulage, construction, machine tools, in addition to our proposals for North Sea and Celtic Sea oil and gas. Our decision in the field of banking, insurance and building societies is still under consideration. We shall return to public ownership assets and licences hived-off by the present government, and we shall create a powerful National Enterprise Board with the structure and functions set out in _Labour's Programme 1973. _

9. We intend to socialise existing nationalised industries. In consultation with the unions, we shall take steps to make the management of existing nationalised industries more responsible to the workers in the industry and more responsive to their consumers' needs.

10. Regional development will be further encouraged by new public enterprise, assistance to private industry on a selective basis, and new REGIONAL PLANNING MACHINERY, along the lines set out in _Labour's Programme 1973. _We will retain and improve the Regional Employment Premium. Revenues from North Sea oil will be used wherever possible to improve employment conditions in Scotland and the regions elsewhere in need of development.

11. We shall develop an active manpower policy with a powerful NATIONAL LABOUR BOARD. In the longer term, redundant workers must have an automatic right to retraining; redundancy should then lead not to unemployment, but to retraining and job changing.”

In terms of clarity, ambition and purposive left  social democratic politics this stands in contrast to the current manifesto. Socialisation, control of profit making sectors, planning, trade union and worker involvement etc. Note also the ambition to apply controls - quietly dropped by McDonnell

And, of course, Labour actually won the election albeit with a small majority.

As I think Danny LR commented, given the other option on offer it’s clear which is best  regardless of the limits of Labour’s actual plan. But, those who think Labour are being outlandishly radical (or even radical in absolute terms, rather than the narrowed horizons of now) might want to read this and reflect.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 22, 2019)

They only won cos Heath was even more crap or something.


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

wtf is this prick going on about Evo Morales? Weirdo


----------



## magneze (Nov 22, 2019)

Never-ending Scottish questions.


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

The sycophantic questioner last but one was an SWP bod.  Somewhat surprising line for them to take.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

belboid said:


> The sycophantic questioner last but one was an SWP bod.  Somewhat surprising line for them to take.



which one was the SWPer?


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

Last but one questioner/commenter to Corbyn.


----------



## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

belboid said:


> Last but one questioner/commenter to Corbyn.


This guy?

[Removed image cos nobody wants to be mistakenly identified as a SWPie]


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> This guy?




embarrassing fail on Labour’s position in the 1970’s on Europe. When, of course, socialists were opposed to the EU


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

belboid said:


> Last but one questioner/commenter to Corbyn.



Thought so.


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> This guy?



Gawd no, he was coherent.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 22, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’ve been reading the 1974 manifesto today (as you do). It has this to say on state ownership:
> 
> “The British people, both as workers and consumers, must have more control over the powerful private forces that at present dominate our economic life. To this end we shall:
> 
> ...


Note to media the next time the '83 bogeymen's raised: there's other manifestos.

Given how far the Overton window's been moved by the Thatcherite counter-revolution, I can see why they didn't think they could go that far, but emphasising internal democracy could've helped sell it in the media by forcing opponents to either attack workers or concede the point.

Regardless, a foundation to build on at least.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

belboid said:


> Gawd no, he was coherent.



Except being totally wrong?

Wilson want not neutral. The freedom for cabinet ministers to campaign freely was to avoid splitting the Party between the pro-EU right wing and the left who opposed the EU


----------



## Mumbles274 (Nov 22, 2019)

I had worries about dick thumb guy and his question


----------



## neonwilderness (Nov 22, 2019)

Corbyn and Sturgeon managed to be fairly concise with their answers, then Swinson has failed on the first question


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

Kate rutter is killing her!  Didn’t even need to mention squirrels.


----------



## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

I'm enjoying watching Swinson.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'm enjoying watching Swinson.



she really is a fucking sack of rancid cats vomit.


----------



## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> she really is a fucking sack of rancid cats vomit.



She's not doing very well so far, is she?


----------



## magneze (Nov 22, 2019)

So bad


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 22, 2019)

Mad ear rings and talking shit. Not good.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> She's not doing very well so far, is she?



Anyone who votes for her should be executed.


----------



## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Anyone who votes for her should be executed.



It's not looking like anyone will if the silence from the audience to her answers is anything to go by.


----------



## belboid (Nov 22, 2019)

She’s being utterly fucking hammered


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2019)

Fabulous


----------



## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

A joyful 30 minutes.


----------



## LDC (Nov 22, 2019)

Brilliant. Loved watching her. Stunned silence to most of her answers. What a class A horror she is.


----------



## Smangus (Nov 22, 2019)

Not bothering to watch this but am certainly enjoying the running commentary on here, good job all


----------



## LDC (Nov 22, 2019)

Johnson first question, Brexit within 15 seconds.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 22, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Anyone who votes for her should be executed.



Even thinking about it should incur a bullet


----------



## N_igma (Nov 22, 2019)

Fuck sakes just change your name by deed poll to Boris Brexit.


----------



## LDC (Nov 22, 2019)

Audience hammering Johnson. Ha.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 22, 2019)

I was going to avoid Swinson as unbearable, but that was great. Rabbit in headlights


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Audience hammering Johnson. Ha.


Sadly not literally


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 22, 2019)

Is this an anti Brexit crowd?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

eatmorecheese said:


> I was going to avoid Swinson as unbearable, but that was great. Rabbit in headlights


----------



## LDC (Nov 22, 2019)

eatmorecheese said:


> I was going to avoid Swinson as unbearable, but that was great. Rabbit in headlights



Johnson starting to look like a half shaved polar bear on speed in the headlights.


----------



## LDC (Nov 22, 2019)

Fucking hell he might be doing worse than Swinson.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Johnson starting to look like a half shaved polar bear on speed in the headlights.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 22, 2019)

Johnson is bombing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 22, 2019)

Hmmm. He's getting away with a series of big lies, particularly about his time as mayor of London, which is clearly what he wants to refer to rather than the govt he was part of.


----------



## elbows (Nov 22, 2019)

The Bermuda triangle ate the report.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 22, 2019)

What a fucking state he is.

It's like Mr Bean.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 22, 2019)

Wide eyed tinfoiler banging on about Russian conspiracy theories


----------



## elbows (Nov 22, 2019)

Its gone all Brass Eye.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 22, 2019)

Ah. Now he's gone all Prince andrew about his racism.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 22, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Wide eyed tinfoiler banging on about Russian conspiracy theories



>




Marty1 said:


> David Icke has some quite interesting content tbf.


----------



## neonwilderness (Nov 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah. Now he's gone all Prince andrew about his racism.


He was in Pizza Express when that article was written.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 22, 2019)

This United Kingdom. Pointing and laughing the only sane response.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 22, 2019)

Great point from audience member about NHS conditions for doctors and nurses.

60hrs a week is shocking.


----------



## elbows (Nov 22, 2019)

Savaged by National Heckling Service workers.


----------



## magneze (Nov 22, 2019)

The audience hasn't really asked about Brexit so he's had nothing to say.


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2019)

Johnson is being absolutely bodied here


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 22, 2019)

.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Nov 22, 2019)

Notably the needle on the Betfair 'largest party' market refused to budge a sodding inch during all that.

You can still get 3.1 on No Overall Majority (so Tories 324 or less) - that seems like great value to me?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 22, 2019)

Have ignored all this but going to have to watch now


----------



## treelover (Nov 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> Johnson is being absolutely bodied here



Will it make any difference?, i know the media looks for them, creates the narrative, vox pops, etc, but working class voters seem to be moving to the Tories in significant numbers. A number of council bye elections have seen shifts as well.


----------



## killer b (Nov 22, 2019)

treelover said:


> Will it make any difference?, i know the media looks for them, creates the narrative, vox pops, etc, but working class voters seem to be moving to the Tories in significant numbers. A number of council bye elections have seen shifts as well.


Fuck knows mate, I was just glad to see him sweat.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 22, 2019)

killer b said:


> Fuck knows mate, I was just glad to see him sweat.


The queen tends to sack people who can't sweat.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2019)

Can't imagine that Johnson's handlers were well pleased that he had to retreat to London Mayoral boasts on at least 3 occasions. Looks really weak.
That 'room next door' guy will be filling his boots.


----------



## chilango (Nov 22, 2019)

"Get Brexit done"


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2019)

My twitter list titled "Vermin" (most tory MPs) is not moving very quickly tonight.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Nov 22, 2019)

Gotta love Gogglebox.. About the lib dem Party Political Broadscast:

"Has this made Jo Swinson more relatable?"

"No, I always knew she lived in a house and wore shoes"


----------



## neonwilderness (Nov 22, 2019)




----------



## mauvais (Nov 22, 2019)

I'm watching this however far behind for belated lols. The biggest puzzle for me is what Swinson's accent is about. It veers wildly between Scottish (which she is, at least), something from The Archers and Catherine Tate.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 22, 2019)

That's a strong Lib Dem policy, that bar charts should be labelled. Not necessarily correct, but labelled.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> View attachment 190763


Latest Lib Dem bar-chart showing the minutes of wild applause received by each leader during the QuestionTime leaders programme.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 22, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I'm watching this however far behind for belated lols. The biggest puzzle for me is what Swinson's accent is about. It veers wildly between Scottish (which she is, at least), something from The Archers and Catherine Tate.


You are correct.  Like everything else about her it's a pretence but the accents certainly catch the ear.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 22, 2019)

[


----------



## mauvais (Nov 22, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Latest Lib Dem bar-chart showing the minutes of wild applause received by each leader during the QuestionTime leaders programme.
> 
> View attachment 190765


Labels you can believe in exist!


----------



## Hollis (Nov 22, 2019)

Really wish we could've seen that karate contest between Raab and Andy McDonald


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 22, 2019)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 190732


He’s an IT consultant apparently and races motor bikes with his father ( Manchester Evening News)


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 22, 2019)

I heard he's a squirrel fluffer for the lib dems


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 22, 2019)

Watching this QT special, on Swinson bit now. Savage tbh


----------



## brogdale (Nov 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Watching this QT special, on Swinson bit now. Savage tbh


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 22, 2019)

i missed this - any highlights of swinson dying on her arse?


----------



## Kuke (Nov 22, 2019)




----------



## belboid (Nov 23, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> i missed this - any highlights of swinson dying on her arse?


It’s the entire thirty minutes.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 23, 2019)

I expect she thought she kicked arse.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 23, 2019)

Because we've been at a gig and in pub ... 

I'm *baffled *by all these above posts, was Corbyn involved at all,in this QT?? 

No mention of him ...


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 23, 2019)

(OK, starting to get it now  )


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 23, 2019)




----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 23, 2019)

MrSki said:


> I expect she thought she kicked arse.




the comments on that twitter thread are not happy reading. If you have the misfortune to be joe swinson


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 23, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> What would your criticism of Corbyn be?



He's a useless twat.

Brexit is easily the biggest single issue in this election, and probably in British politics since declaration of war on Germany, and Corbyn manages a resounding 'Ermmm'.
Is Johnson paying him?


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 23, 2019)

Ban the above twat immediately please, mods. 
Not because he's broken any FAQs, but because he's an utterly predictable and spectacularly boring arsehole.

Just fuck off and now.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 23, 2019)

The UK needs a Labour government but is unlikely to get one this time.
The reasons Labour is doing so badly in the polls, and probably will do badly in the election, must be examined as soon as possible in order to stop the tories next time around.
That means looking at everything and not excluding any possibilities just because they might be a problem for some of the more vocal party members.
The other option is more tory governments with no effective opposition, an especially bad one under Johnson this time.
I hate to think what Johnson will get up to over the next few years if he gets the widely predicted majority, but I can guarantee it's going to be bloody terrible.
I'm assured I'm a twat for promoting realism and wanting a Labour government, but I'm only accused because I want a sensible Labour government with workable policies that can stop tory extremism but ditching the best thing to happen to the tories in years, Corbyn.
What's better, radical policies with no hope of ever happening, or mild policies that can restore public services?


----------



## discokermit (Nov 23, 2019)

Shut up.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 23, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The UK needs a Labour government but is unlikely to get one this time.
> The reasons Labour is doing so badly in the polls, and probably will do badly in the election, must be examined as soon as possible in order to stop the tories next time around.
> That means looking at everything and not excluding any possibilities just because they might be a problem for some of the more vocal party members.
> The other option is more tory governments with no effective opposition, an especially bad one under Johnson this time.
> ...



For the last time before I put you on ignore what would your prefered 'sensible Labour government' do, what would its 'workable policies be?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Azrael (Nov 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Watching this QT special, on Swinson bit now. Savage tbh


Well deserved.

Short of reappointing Nick Clegg as leader, the Lib Dems couldn't have played this golden opportunity worse. If they'd broken decisively with the Con-Dem years, unilaterally stood down in Lab-Con marginals, and focused their fury on the Tories, this could've been the breakthrough that began to undo Lloyd George's decision to take his party down with him.

Instead, they voted in a leader who demanded a statue of Thatcher. The legacy of Tim lives!


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 23, 2019)

Why would they do something that is contrary to their politic ideology and would ensure their irrelevance? 

There are a maximum of two seats that the LDs can take off Labour. Both their target seats and their marginals are battles with either the Tories or SNP. If they want to win seats they need to persuade remain supporting conservative inclined voters to back them (in E&W, different dynamics in Scotland) that necessarily means being the party of Gauke, Gyimah, Lee etc. 


> As unjust as it is, our outdated electoral system means that the vote of a Gauke in St Ives or Cities of London & Westminster is worth more than the vote of a Walker in Hackney South or East Surrey.


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

What's with the #girlyswot thing?


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> What's with the #girlyswot thing?


Johnson said something disparaging about girly swots a bit ago (not connected to swinson) which swinson has been trying to appropriate as some sort of badge of honour, and failing.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> What's with the #girlyswot thing?





killer b said:


> Johnson said something disparaging about girly swots a bit ago (not connected to swinson) which swinson has been trying to appropriate as some sort of badge of honour, and failing.


He called Cameron a "girly swot" in a letter, didn't he?

<edit:


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 23, 2019)

Yep.

Boris Johnson calls David Cameron 'girly swot' in leaked note


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

Thanks.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> Johnson said something disparaging about girly swots a bit ago (not connected to swinson) which swinson has been trying to appropriate as some sort of badge of honour, and failing.



Quite a few Twitterati were appropriating but now I reckon she's killed it off. Which is good cos it didn't make much sense to most people.


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

Who told her it was a good idea?

Is it part of her "appealing to centrist dads" schtick?


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 23, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> There are a maximum of two seats that the LDs can take off Labour.



Presumably these are the two seats that Sporting Index and Spreadex ‘gave back’ to Labour and took off the LDs in the readjusted bet spread after the debate last night.

And that was it as far as the debate’s impact on the betting went. All else is unchanged. If you really fancy Labour won’t do as bad as polls are suggesting, you should be buying Labour seats, now at 213. Last night you could have got 210.

Conservatives remain unchanged at 339/345 (or 338/346 on Spreadex).

LDs are 27/31. I can’t see them getting 27. But it probably won’t be many less than that, maybe not enough
less even to merit a gamble.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 23, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Presumably these are the two seats that Sporting Index and Spreadex ‘gave back’ to Labour and took off the LDs in the readjusted bet spread after the debate last night.


No idea, I'm am totally ignorant on betting stuff. That said I'd still fancy the LDs chances in Sheffield Hallam, Leeds North West could be close but I think Labour might keep it.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Nov 23, 2019)

On the two seats things - I kind of get that. LD have made all the ground they are going to make against Labour, and by far the most fertile hunting ground for them is remainer tories or would be tories that are worried by Johnson/Cummings. So she should be pissing me off if she's got any sense really.

I would be really surprised if Lab take Hallam, but then, you can never rule out a total studentquake I suppose.

And while I don't really like them, they can take as many seats off the tories as they like as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 23, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Badgers said:


>



It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

King Biscuit Time said:


> On the two seats things - I kind of get that. LD have made all the ground they are going to make against Labour, and by far the most fertile hunting ground for them is remainer tories or would be tories that are worried by Johnson/Cummings. So she should be pissing me off if she's got any sense really.
> 
> I would be really surprised if Lab take Hallam, but then, you can never rule out a total studentquake I suppose.
> 
> And while I don't really like them, they can take as many seats off the tories as they like as far as I'm concerned.


You won't be so happy if the golden shower go into coalition with Johnson's foul crew


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 23, 2019)

Badgers said:


>


I know the twitter account is real but this has to be a piss take post, surely. I know loads of people really struggle with tax rates only applying on earnings above but this dickhead is subtracting a pounds and pence figure for the average extra amount of tax the top 5% will pay - which includes all those people earning late hundreds/millions/more and is probably bullshit anyway - from the threshold the top rate will kick in at. Nobody is that fucking stupid


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I know the twitter account is real but this has to be a piss take post, surely. I know loads of people really struggle with tax rates only applying on earnings above but this dickhead is subtracting a pounds and pence figure for the average extra amount of tax the top 5% will pay - which includes all those people earning late hundreds/millions/more and is probably bullshit anyway - from the threshold the top rate will kick in at. Nobody is that fucking stupid


Unlike genius stupidity knows no limits


----------



## Badgers (Nov 23, 2019)

Regular QT audience member


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I know the twitter account is real but this has to be a piss take post, surely. I know loads of people really struggle with tax rates only applying on earnings above but this dickhead is subtracting a pounds and pence figure for the average extra amount of tax the top 5% will pay - which includes all those people earning late hundreds/millions/more and is probably bullshit anyway - from the threshold the top rate will kick in at. Nobody is that fucking stupid


Looks like she is...


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2019)

It's just blatant disinformation isn't it? She isn't that stupid, it's posted for people with a very vague grasp of how taxation works to get angry about.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's just blatant disinformation isn't it? She isn't that stupid, it's posted for people with a very vague grasp of how taxation works to get angry about.


Yes, she's on SM virtually full-time and has quite a history of involvement going back to Mark Clarke's YBF/CF infamous 'Road-trip' canvassing sessions.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 23, 2019)

Engaging article on the Labour candidate Faiza Shaheen in Chingford and Woodford Green. In with a chance? Maybe...

'Britain's AOC', the young Muslim woman trying to unseat Iain Duncan Smith


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2019)

My local CLP put this up on their SM yesterday.
I get it, but I'm left feeling troubled by the attempt at 'throw-away' casual racism humour at the end.
Maybe I'm being a bit testy, (i'm sure the intent was ironic & all that) but I'm not really impressed by that; is it just me wondering how it will be read?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 23, 2019)

It's dogshit


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 23, 2019)

On so so many levels.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 23, 2019)

Did they mean to join the lib-dems or greens and failed or something?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2019)

There are some real corkers out there on vermin SM...but this one from far-right thicko Swayne has to take the #diveristyandinclusion award today?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 23, 2019)

That dog doesn't look happy about being included in the photo.


----------



## flypanam (Nov 23, 2019)

Erm what about that gamer bloke and his fear of Corbyn? Fascinating specimen, i genuinely don't know any gamers.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> That dog doesn't look happy about being included in the photo.


Or what's being done to it.


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Erm what about that gamer bloke and his fear of Corbyn? Fascinating specimen, i genuinely don't know any gamers.



I bet he's got an edgy YouTube channel


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> My local CLP put this up on their SM yesterday.
> I get it, but I'm left feeling troubled by the attempt at 'throw-away' casual racism humour at the end.
> Maybe I'm being a bit testy, (i'm sure the intent was ironic & all that) but I'm not really impressed by that; is it just me wondering how it will be read?
> 
> View attachment 190800


Leave voters are thick racists who got mugged off


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Leave voters are thick racists who got mugged off


That's about it, isn't it?
My constituency = 57% L


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Leave voters are thick racists who got mugged off


And old. Bastards.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Or what's being done to it.


_Get in the fucking bag and shut up._


----------



## brogdale (Nov 23, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _Get in the fucking bag and shut up._


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Nobody is that fucking stupid



That's a bold statement on a site with Don Trooomp posting on it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> I bet he's got an edgy YouTube channel


95% probability he subscribes to that that nazi dog fella


----------



## Riklet (Nov 23, 2019)

Labours gonna do a lot better than initially predicted eh.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> My local CLP put this up on their SM yesterday.
> I get it, but I'm left feeling troubled by the attempt at 'throw-away' casual racism humour at the end.
> Maybe I'm being a bit testy, (i'm sure the intent was ironic & all that) but I'm not really impressed by that; is it just me wondering how it will be read?
> 
> <snipped>


What BA said. Appalling.


----------



## treelover (Nov 23, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> No idea, I'm am totally ignorant on betting stuff. That said I'd still fancy the LDs chances in Sheffield Hallam, Leeds North West could be close but I think Labour might keep it.



Olivia Blake is a great candidate, resigned from the hard line labour council as deputy leader, partly over the tree's fiasco, but you are probably right.


----------



## treelover (Nov 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> My local CLP put this up on their SM yesterday.
> I get it, but I'm left feeling troubled by the attempt at 'throw-away' casual racism humour at the end.
> Maybe I'm being a bit testy, (i'm sure the intent was ironic & all that) but I'm not really impressed by that; is it just me wondering how it will be read?
> 
> View attachment 190800



inverse racism, not good


----------



## treelover (Nov 23, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Erm what about that gamer bloke and his fear of Corbyn? Fascinating specimen, i genuinely don't know any gamers.



right wing libertarian?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 23, 2019)

treelover said:


> Olivia Blake is a great candidate, resigned from the hard line labour council as deputy leader, partly over the tree's fiasco, but you are probably right.



Disclaimer: Not an accurate account of events.


----------



## treelover (Nov 23, 2019)

please expand, am open to info


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

.oops wrong thread


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 23, 2019)

treelover said:


> please expand, am open to info



While she has resigned as deputy leader for this bizarre referendum thing, she was quite happy to carry out cuts as deputy leader for years, arguably the stunt is about compensating for never challenging Julie Dore.

Not a great candidate imo.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 23, 2019)

Although perhaps some would say she's a great candidate for what is usually a Lib Dem seat.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 23, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> On so so many levels.


Yep, it's both horrible and ridiculous. It manages to piss about with Labour's strongest issue while insulting the very voters they need to win back from the BP. And in a bigger, probably more important context, it's an example of how labour got to where they are.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> There are some real corkers out there on vermin SM...but this one from far-right thicko Swayne has to take the #diveristyandinclusion award today?
> 
> View attachment 190801


A group of lads that wouldn't _quite _get an invite to Prince Andrew's shooting weekend. Volunteer beaters perhaps?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 23, 2019)

brogdale said:


> There are some real corkers out there on vermin SM...but this one from far-right thicko Swayne has to take the #diveristyandinclusion award today?
> 
> View attachment 190801


And that's just the youth section.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 23, 2019)

So not just the tories editing videos.



How it actually sounded.


----------



## belboid (Nov 23, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> While she has resigned as deputy leader for this bizarre referendum thing, she was quite happy to carry out cuts as deputy leader for years, arguably the stunt is about compensating for never challenging Julie Dore.
> 
> Not a great candidate imo.


Hmm. You’re right she didn’t resign over trees, but the rest.... She and the others (inc Sophie in rother valley who is deffo a ‘proper lefty’ that we’re all campaigning for) resigned over general democracy issues not, simplistically, the referendum. She was deputy leader for six minutes, not years, and, while she undoubtedly did vote for cuts as a labour councillor, she voted for far fewer than chris peace did - because she wasn’t a councillor for half as long - and chris is definitely the best of the local candidates in marginal seats.  

tldr - Olivia is alright, definitely a lefty just no revolutionary. Slightly better than Francyne in penistone, who is still worth campaigning for.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 23, 2019)

Sent to me by a correspondent at Liverpool cathedral. Something for everyone to reflect upon.


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 23, 2019)

treelover said:


> inverse racism, not good



No. It's just a reference to the anti-immigrant sentiment, which clearly carried the day in the frauderendum.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 23, 2019)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 190830
> Sent to me by a correspondent at Liverpool cathedral. Something for everyone to reflect upon.



Or, just laugh at.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 23, 2019)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 190830
> Sent to me by a correspondent at Liverpool cathedral. Something for everyone to reflect upon.


I mean omnipotent supreme being and so on but "strengthen us to make politics a noble calling that serves the common good of all" is a bit of an ask.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 23, 2019)

The BBC appear to be at it again:


----------



## teuchter (Nov 23, 2019)

teqniq said:


> The BBC appear to be at it again:



A bit conspiracy theory -ish isn't it?
It was broadcast in full on the programme, and then a condensed version for a news clip. So they cut the bits where no-one is speaking. They have the audience clapping the question but not the brief murmur of laughter.
So what. 

"Utterly Extraordinary"? Nah.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 23, 2019)

isvicthere? said:


> No. It's just a reference to the anti-immigrant sentiment, which clearly carried the day in the frauderendum.


Yeah you're right, laughing at old people who are probably brexit racists having heart attacks is sound


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

teqniq said:


> The BBC appear to be at it again:




They've edited out people laughing at Johnson before iirc.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2019)

they edit stuff down for news bulletins, and the stuff that gets cut is the stuff where no-one is saying anything, of course. this is embarrassing stuff.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 23, 2019)

teuchter said:


> A bit conspiracy theory -ish isn't it?


No, it's an illustration of how media bias works. However many people watched the debate live, you can be certain that many more will only have watched that clip. How they edit things for clips matters.


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> they edit stuff down for news bulletins, and the stuff that gets cut is the stuff where no-one is saying anything, of course. this is embarrassing stuff.



Whilst it's not a major conspiracy, making a decision to cut out people laughing at the PM is still worthy of note.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2019)

it really isn't.


----------



## chilango (Nov 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> it really isn't.



Oh yes it is. 

He's the Prime Minister.

People are laughing at him.

To his face.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 23, 2019)

They were laughing at the question.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

chilango said:


> Oh yes it is.
> 
> He's the Prime Minister.
> 
> ...


He'll go back to no 10 and say "the people love me. As I was coming back they called out we hail Boris johnson' but his security detail will put him right, 'it was we hate Boris Johnson, sir'


----------



## mauvais (Nov 23, 2019)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 190830
> Sent to me by a correspondent at Liverpool cathedral. Something for everyone to reflect upon.


Is it an encouragement to vote for Jo Swinson's Nuclear Annihilating Liberal Democrats?


----------



## MrSki (Nov 23, 2019)

teuchter said:


> They were laughing at the question.


They were laughing at Johnson & replaced it with clapping so it seemed the audience was supporting him & not laughing at him.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 23, 2019)

Tories have a 19 point lead, apparently. JFC.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Tories have a 19 point lead, apparently. JFC.


Mind games for the middle classes


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> they edit stuff down for news bulletins, and the stuff that gets cut is the stuff where no-one is saying anything, of course. this is embarrassing stuff.


Sorry, but I'm going to have to throw your own advice at you here. Listen to the clips before commenting - you're wrong, they didn't edit it down, as in they didn't take any seconds or parts of seconds out of it. They edited the sound so that you heard claps and not the sniggers. And they must have gone to a fair bit of trouble to do so. Nothing to do with taking out time when no-one is saying anything.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 23, 2019)

They did edit it down - they cut out a pause and some waffling before Johnson started to speak, the space between the end of the question and when he actually started to say something, which was when the laughter took place. That also had the effect of cutting out the laughter.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 23, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Tories have a 19 point lead, apparently. JFC.



This one, I guess:



That's 200+ majority territory.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 23, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They did edit it down - they cut out a pause and some waffling before Johnson started to speak, the space between the end of the question and when he actually started to say something, which was when the laughter took place. That also had the effect of cutting out the laughter.


Ok, in that case the one they're comparing it to has also been edited.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 23, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok, in that case the one they're comparing it to has also been edited.


That's based on the "before and after" videos posted on twitter and quoted above. It's not a long space of time but then it doesn't need to be.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 23, 2019)

Actually I've now listened to it several times and it's not a simple matter of cutting a section out, they have spliced different bits together. I would say with the intention of shortening it rather than to cut the laughter out but there you go.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 23, 2019)

The word 'vital' is intonated differently in each version.


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2019)

Didn't know that Despair is a sin. Thats not very encouraging is it.


----------



## gosub (Nov 23, 2019)

bimble said:


> Didn't know that Despair is a sin. Thats not very encouraging is it.



I think it's more a stick approach : them losing faith that God has a plan probably more likely to get struck by lightning


----------



## bimble (Nov 23, 2019)

wikipedia says despair is an unforgivable & eternal sort of sin, which seems pretty rough. Anyway carry on, not much of a tangent really.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 23, 2019)

Maybe you & teuchter take this god bothering shite to pm?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Maybe you & teuchter take this god bothering shite to pm?


Leave me out of it


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> This one, I guess:
> 
> 
> 
> That's 200+ majority territory.



That's utterly fucked


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> That's utterly fucked



Pass me my Purdey’s!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Pass me my Purdey’s!


You'll need something more like a mossberg


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 23, 2019)

I say we withdraw and nuke the site from orbit.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 23, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> This one, I guess:
> 
> 
> 
> That's 200+ majority territory.




That’s well off beam. No way will they get 47%.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> That’s well off beam. No way will they get 47%.


These things are always wrong


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll need something more like a mossberg



Americans don’t do shot guns. James Purdey did.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Americans don’t do shot guns. James Purdey did.


... Or an sks


----------



## Humberto (Nov 23, 2019)

Well, Labour need to keep opening the door to the undecided. How many of those there are I'm not sure. They need to stop playing nice. Because the truth about this shower in government is _not_ nice. How do you shift something in three weeks? Take the kid gloves off and rough them up a bit (speaking in terms of verbal combat obviously). Firstly; they deserve it. Secondly; it's not cynical, it's speaking plainly. Their crimes, their hypocrisy, the lack of conscience and competence. Be bold and take them to task. That in my opinion is the right thing to do.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 23, 2019)

Why are the Tories getting a boost now, other than everyone being thick as mince? I can understand the situation remaining flat but I'm puzzled by the uplift. Is it as simple as a transfer from the Brexit Party?


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 23, 2019)

Mostly, yes. Plus we don’t see everything they’re up to on Facebook as only those targeted will be getting the message.


----------



## 8115 (Nov 23, 2019)

I think the polls are f***ed. We'll see.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Why are the Tories getting a boost now, other than everyone being thick as mince? I can understand the situation remaining flat but I'm puzzled by the uplift. Is it as simple as a transfer from the Brexit Party?


it looks like that to me - the last big round of polling they had only just dropped out in tory held seats, it takes a while for something like that to filter through (and presumably for the polling companies to adjust their methodology). The BP vote has completely collapsed now though, as far as I can see.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 23, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Well, Labour need to keep opening the door to the undecided. How many of those there are I'm not sure. They need to stop playing nice. Because the truth about this shower in government is _not_ nice. How do you shift something in three weeks? Take the kid gloves off and rough them up a bit (speaking in terms of verbal combat obviously). Firstly; they deserve it. Secondly; it's not cynical, it's speaking plainly. Their crimes, their hypocrisy, the lack of conscience and competence. Be bold and take them to task. That in my opinion is the right thing to do.



I reckon they should go after the cunts on their record, not on what they *might* do with bogeyman Trump which can easily be dismissed as speculation. Enough evidence of what they have done to the NHS, proliferation of the homeless, stagnant wages, fucked trains, stabby kids, homes hardly anyone can afford, corrupt deals etc. Billboards emphasising this and saying ‘so you want some more?’ or something like that.

(Incidentally, haven’t really seen any billboard stuff yet other than the bydonkeys stuff, is it even used anymore or all channelled on Facebook instead?)


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 23, 2019)

*19 fucking points* 

The Guardian is reporting a much increased tory lead.
As I've said many times, and been called a cunt for saying, this election has been given to the tories by Corbyn and his band of idiots - as the polls clearly prove.

I said Corbyn's idiotic Brexit sit on the fence position was nothing short of stupid but told how wrong I was, but this shows I was right.
I dread to think what the tories will do with their predicted majority, but I can guarantee it's going to be rough.

Conservatives open up 19-point lead with 47% share of the vote



> The Conservatives have taken a commanding 19-point lead over Labour with less than three weeks to go before voters head to the polls, according to the latest Opinium poll for the _Observer_.....
> ....*The Tory share of the vote now stands at 47%, with Labour on 28% *and the Lib Dems falling back to 12%. Also struggling is the Brexit party, which has collapsed to 3%. Underlying the Tory lead is the party’s success in attracting support from Leave voters: three-quarters of them say they would vote Conservative.


----------



## strung out (Nov 23, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> *19 fucking points*
> 
> The Guardian is reporting a much increased tory lead.
> As I've said many times, and been called a cunt for saying, this election has been given to the tories by Corbyn and his band of idiots - as the polls clearly prove.
> ...


Presumably if Labour had gone full remain earlier they would have attracted all those Brexit party voters who have switched to the Tories now?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 23, 2019)

Don Troooomp any chance you can take your Liberalangst rage to it's logical conclusion and jump out of the nearest window, thanks.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2019)

just don't respond to him, it's pointless.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> just don't respond to him, it's pointless.



you are correct of course, although it's always worth planting a seed.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 23, 2019)

Don't want to sound like a crackhead or a corbynite true believer but I don't buy this polling, it's off imo. Tories ahead but by a nose.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 23, 2019)

killer b said:


> just don't respond to him, it's pointless.



You could try responding to the polls


----------



## Cid (Nov 23, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> you are correct of course, although it's always worth planting a seed.



Though famously not on stony ground.


----------



## killer b (Nov 23, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Don't want to sound like a crackhead or a corbynite true believer but I don't buy this polling, it's off imo. Tories ahead but by a nose.


How do you assess this though?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 23, 2019)

8115 said:


> I think the polls are f***ed. We'll see.



Aye, anyone who says they know how the elections going to turn out is a liar.

I suspect the conservatives will win just by virtue of convincing people this will end Brexit (it will not) and get it done (it will not) while the remain vote splinters between parties.

But they'll either win by a fraction or all the way up to fuck me we're fucked levels.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 24, 2019)

killer b said:


> How do you assess this though?


I don't really. Almost all the undecided types I know who don't really like corbyn are swinging in behind labour, but then this is obviously anecdotal and I mostly know people from a couple of specific parts of UK. Bit more objectively, I don't like the weightings pollsters are using for turnout by age cohort, I think they've fucked it.

I made a few quid out of referendum, corbyn (first time) and last general election (I bet on hung parliament when dickheads were talking about May getting a 100 seat majority and did alright on constituencies) so I like to fool myself my instincts are good, so Tories will probably get 380 seats or something.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 24, 2019)

I think that poll's possibly a bit of an outlier, but there's also this [from the Guardian article about the poll]:
_
The Tory lead stood at 16 points last week, three points lower than now. *However, Opinium is now taking into account the fact that some parties – primarily the Brexit party, which has pulled its candidates from Tory-held constituencies – are not running in every seat.* Opinium also asked voters who they would back if all parties were running in their seat, which gave the Tories a 16-point lead – the same as last week’s poll._

Still, 16 points lead is not looking good


----------



## Humberto (Nov 24, 2019)

Polls are slippery things. I'm not worried.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 24, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Aye, anyone who says they know how the elections going to turn out is a liar.
> 
> I suspect the conservatives will win just by virtue of convincing people this will end Brexit (it will not) and get it done (it will not) while the remain vote splinters between parties.
> 
> But they'll either win by a fraction or all the way up to fuck me we're fucked levels.



That's not why they will win. Corbyn is a true skool kemalist who can't even advocate the disbanding of a professional standing army! much less say that the UK will commit to freedom of movement if we leave. when you have tory lite and da real primo bomb shit its a no brainer really.

*not saying this positively, this is basically a pretty hard right wing manifesto with basically 0 socialist content... the social justice stuff exactly has shy/soft labourites deceived*


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 24, 2019)




----------



## Marty1 (Nov 24, 2019)

Tories to unveil manifesto 'to get Brexit done'

Brexit by January 2020!


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 24, 2019)

dialectician said:


> That's not why they will win. Corbyn is a true skool kemalist who can't even advocate the disbanding of a professional standing army! much less say that the UK will commit to freedom of movement if we leave. when you have tory lite and da real primo bomb shit its a no brainer really.
> 
> *not saying this positively, this is basically a pretty hard right wing manifesto with basically 0 socialist content... the social justice stuff exactly has shy/soft labourites deceived*


I'm not sure a policy of disbanding the armed forces would have a positive impact on polling for labour tbh


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 24, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> *19 fucking points*
> 
> The Guardian is reporting a much increased tory lead.
> As I've said many times, and been called a cunt for saying, this election has been given to the tories by Corbyn and his band of idiots - as the polls clearly prove.



That's one poll out of six this weekend, and would seem an outlier, as the other 5 all give them a smaller lead of between 10 & 13%, and there were polls showing similiar leads at this stage in 2017, and we know how that played out.

So, the polls haven't proven anything, yet.

* All polling companies have now removed parties from areas where they are not standing, hence the Brexit Party only polling between 3 & 5% across all 6 polls this weekend.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 24, 2019)

Wasn’t there a direction of travel towards labour at this time in 2017? That’s what we’re not seeing now, it needs a bit of movement and optimism. 

I think last time the press was less deferential towards the tories as they felt they didn’t need to be (dementia tax and all that) but seem to be in lock-step this time, and the BBC seems more cowed. As predicted, they’re not taking things for granted this time round.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 24, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Wasn’t there a direction of travel towards labour at this time in 2017? That’s what we’re not seeing now, it needs a bit of movement and optimism.



Looking back, there was some movement at this stage in 2017, but most were still coming up with a similar lead to what is being shown this week.

It was only 2 weekends before that many started to show lower levels of lead, but even in the week before the GE, the spread was crazy from a Labour lead of 2% to a Tory one of 13%.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 24, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Wasn’t there a direction of travel towards labour at this time in 2017? That’s what we’re not seeing now, it needs a bit of movement and optimism.
> 
> I think last time the press was less deferential towards the tories as they felt they didn’t need to be (dementia tax and all that) but seem to be in lock-step this time, and the BBC seems more cowed. As predicted, they’re not taking things for granted this time round.


Took a while for movement toward Labour in 2017, if remember it was after the LE results.


----------



## Smangus (Nov 24, 2019)

Everyone is using 2017 for  comparison, this is a different election with a few similarities but a vast difference in the way people are thinking about the politics of now. I think it's a mistake to compare imho we are not fighting the last election again.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 24, 2019)

Smangus said:


> Everyone is using 2017 for  comparison, this is a different election with a few similarities but a vast difference in the way people are thinking about the politics of now. I think it's a mistake to compare imho we are not fighting the last election again.



That's true, and May car-crashed it, esp. with the dementia tax, but there's still a chance something similiar could happen, although I am not convinced it will.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 24, 2019)

This is worth a look...

Top target seats in the 2019 general election – interactive


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 24, 2019)

Sac


copliker said:


> Galloway interviewed Chris Williamson on one of his russian state shows and they didn't mention jews or israel or palestinians once in the whole 25 minutes which must be some sort of record. Just a load of old shit with Williamson claiming that he got hunted and deselected because of integrity initiative and for being too pro-Corbyn.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 24, 2019)




----------



## elbows (Nov 24, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


>




Pretty close to a real world Cold War Steve montage!


----------



## kebabking (Nov 24, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Sac
> 
> View attachment 190882



Is it just me, or is the Chris Williamson image on the banner looking a lot like Williamson is wearing a Wehrmacht field cap last seen in the _Blitzkrieg _era?

Subliminal messaging?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 24, 2019)

Yes, it looks like something he he should be wearing late 41 - scouring the horizon with binoculars. With a shitty drawn on derby ram.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 24, 2019)

He also looks like he's dead, or at least been dug up.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 24, 2019)

What's with the double L emphasis?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 24, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's one poll out of six this weekend, and would seem an outlier, as the other 5 all give them a smaller lead of between 10 & 13%, and there were polls showing similiar leads at this stage in 2017, and we know how that played out.



Agreed, but the tories have a powerful twat this time instead of a weak twat, something that has to be taken seriously, especially as their powerful twat is also a clever twat.
little things like scrapping  the unpopular parking charges are a massive positive for him, even though we all know he'd scrap the NHS tomorrow if he could.
As I've said many times, the tory's policies hardly matter, it's how they come over, and they're doing a very good PR job while making Corbyn look like a useless pillock that's scrambling to catch up and copying tory policies. Johnson, a man any decent politician should be able to expose as the utter cunt he is, is running rings round Corbyn.

Tories to unveil manifesto 'to get Brexit done'



> The Conservative Party will launch its general election manifesto later, promising to bring back the Withdrawal Agreement Bill before Christmas to achieve Brexit by the end of January.
> 
> Other pledges include a promise not to raise the rates of VAT, income tax and National Insurance, as well as an extra £250m a year to expand childcare.
> 
> ...



Yes, it's bollocks, but it's really well presented bollocks and that's dangerous.


----------



## kebabking (Nov 24, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> What's with the double L emphasis?



It's _IL, _harking back to the old Independent Labour of the 20/30s (someone will put me right, I'm thinking of Maxwell in Glasgow...).


----------



## kebabking (Nov 24, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, it looks like something he he should be wearing late 41 - scouring the horizon with binoculars. With a shitty drawn on derby ram.



While standing on a tank with a stream of JU-88's flying overhead...


----------



## LDC (Nov 24, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Is it just me, or is the Chris Williamson image on the banner looking a lot like Williamson is wearing a Wehrmacht field cap last seen in the _Blitzkrieg _era?
> 
> Subliminal messaging?



Afrika Corps was totally my first thought. Although I think that might say more about me than him.


----------



## LDC (Nov 24, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He also looks like he's dead, or at least been dug up.



I always though he looked a bit Nosferato tbh.


----------



## agricola (Nov 24, 2019)

kebabking said:


> It's _IL, _harking back to the old Independent Labour of the 20/30s (someone will put me right, I'm thinking of Maxwell in Glasgow...).



or Ilyushin


----------



## andysays (Nov 24, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> What's with the double L emphasis?


Maybe it's just me, but it looks a bit...







...sure it's just a terrible coincidence, though


----------



## kebabking (Nov 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I always though he looked a bit Nosferato tbh.



I must admit the combination of the Wehrmacht field cap and the corpse look made me think of one of the melting Germans at the end of Indiana Jones...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Agreed, but the tories have a powerful twat this time instead of a weak twat, something that has to be taken seriously, especially as their powerful twat is also a clever twat.
> little things like scrapping  the unpopular parking charges are a massive positive for him, even though we all know he'd scrap the NHS tomorrow if he could.
> As I've said many times, the tory's policies hardly matter, it's how they come over, and they're doing a very good PR job while making Corbyn look like a useless pillock that's scrambling to catch up and copying tory policies. Johnson, a man any decent politician should be able to expose as the utter cunt he is, is running rings round Corbyn.
> 
> ...


He's a weak and stupid twat, you're a stupid twat


----------



## gosub (Nov 24, 2019)

So Jo Swinson is prepared to use nukes , whilst Nicola Sturgeon has vowed not to retaliate or do I need another cup of coffee before I try to catch up on the news


----------



## kebabking (Nov 24, 2019)

kebabking said:


> It's _IL, _harking back to the old Independent Labour of the 20/30s (someone will put me right, I'm thinking of Maxwell in Glasgow...).



_Maxton,_ I meant _Maxton...._


----------



## tim (Nov 24, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Polls are slippery things. I'm not worried.



The words of a dedicated fire-fighter.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 24, 2019)

So, are the Seventh Cavalry going to show up with their famous battle cry "ok, boomer"?



Or is the UK fated to slip, finally, into darkness eternal?

And more importantly, could the dire polls we're seeing be underestimating or excluding this bloc of yoof?


----------



## elbows (Nov 24, 2019)

Oh here we go with this shit:

Top energy firms move offshore over Labour plans



> National Grid runs the electricity transmission network in England and Wales, as well as the main gas transmission pipelines. It has a market value of £31bn.
> 
> "Labour's proposals for state ownership of National Grid would be highly detrimental to millions of ordinary people who either hold shares in the company or through their pension funds - which include several local authority pension funds," a spokeswoman said.
> 
> "To protect their holdings, and in line with our legal fiduciary duty to our shareholders, we have established holding companies in Luxembourg and Hong Kong. This has no financial benefit to the company and does not affect its day-to-day operations," she added.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 24, 2019)

“Taking back control’ again. Brilliant stuff.

Tories get away with playing the nationalism card while all the bits that make the nation work are owned offshore or by overseas based companies. no democratic oversight, no control.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 24, 2019)

elbows said:


> Oh here we go with this shit:
> 
> Top energy firms move offshore over Labour plans



Waste of time. Any govt would nationalise the assets, not the corporate holding(s).


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 24, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Waste of time. Any govt would nationalise the assets, not the corporate holding(s).


waste of energy , surely ?


----------



## JimW (Nov 24, 2019)

Last one to leave country turn out lights etc


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 24, 2019)

Well I’ve just voted.  And into the post it goooooes!


----------



## tim (Nov 24, 2019)

JimW said:


> Last one to leave country turn out lights etc


You'll have to go to Luxembourg Todo that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> *19 fucking points*
> 
> The Guardian is reporting a much increased tory lead.
> As I've said many times, and been called a cunt for saying, this election has been given to the tories by Corbyn and his band of idiots - as the polls clearly prove.
> ...


They will do nothing with their predicted majority as it is simply imaginary, it doesn't exist


----------



## Weller (Nov 24, 2019)

Dont know if the manifesto site has already been posted 

https://www.thetorymanifesto.com/


----------



## brogdale (Nov 24, 2019)

Weller said:


> Dont know if the manifesto site has already been posted
> 
> https://www.thetorymanifesto.com/


Think we may need to FactCheckUk that site!


----------



## treelover (Nov 24, 2019)

MrSki said:


> So not just the tories editing videos.
> 
> 
> 
> How it actually sounded.





Tbf, lots of broadcast media did show it, inc BBC news, LK, and obv Corbyn laughed at on his Brexit position.


----------



## treelover (Nov 24, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Sac
> 
> View attachment 190882



is that James Cosmo on the right?


----------



## treelover (Nov 24, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> So, are the Seventh Cavalry going to show up with their famous battle cry "ok, boomer"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





how many registered, but then voted last time?


----------



## teqniq (Nov 24, 2019)

The BBC have questions to answer which they are not. I am not surprised.


----------



## Hollis (Nov 24, 2019)

Com on Greg!  Where the hell is your 2019 campaign video..


----------



## Wilf (Nov 24, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They did edit it down - they cut out a pause and some waffling before Johnson started to speak, the space between the end of the question and when he actually started to say something, which was when the laughter took place. That also had the effect of cutting out the laughter.


Whether they took seconds out or not, the editing alters the meaning of the clip, so it is significant, particularly in an election.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 24, 2019)

kebabking said:


> _Maxton,_ I meant _Maxton...._


Dammit, I thought you'd found out where she's hiding!


----------



## Supine (Nov 24, 2019)

.


----------



## killer b (Nov 24, 2019)

I keep seeing people talking about the number of young voters registering to vote - hundreds of thousands, someone said 1.5 million... but then I think _what if they're all registering to vote lib dem? _


----------



## teqniq (Nov 24, 2019)

One would hope not.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> They will do nothing with their predicted majority as it is simply imaginary, it doesn't exist



I would love that to be true, but I'm unsure of its accuracy


----------



## elbows (Nov 24, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I would love that to be true, but I'm unsure of its accuracy


Show me where I can see this great majority


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 24, 2019)

killer b said:


> I keep seeing people talking about the number of young voters registering to vote - hundreds of thousands, someone said 1.5 million... but then I think _what if they're all registering to vote lib dem? _



A lot might be voting green tbh, all the XR/climate emergency stuff has been taken onboard by a lot of the younger generation.


----------



## mauvais (Nov 24, 2019)

I think you're both underestimating their political awareness, personally.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Nov 24, 2019)

People complain about "the cult of Corbyn", but the Conservative manifesto has Johnson on the front cover and the Lib Dems bus not only has Jo Swinson on the side of it but also the title "Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats".

Farage, by comparison, looking positively humble.

Manifesto is still much lighter than Labour's.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> People complain about "the cult of Corbyn", but the Conservative manifesto has Johnson on the front cover and the Lib Dems bus not only has Jo Swinson on the side of it but also the title "Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats".
> 
> Farage, by comparison, looking positively humble.
> 
> Manifesto is still much lighter than Labour's.


And more absorbent


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 24, 2019)

64 pages, 52 once you take out the full-page pics and blanks (which is still very generous - if you take out the half-page pics it drops to around 48 I reckon). including nine separate shots of either Boris or men in hard hats holding as big sign saying 'We Love Boris'.

The whole thing [PDF] reads like they handed in a bunch of scrawled notes on some old receipts to the designer and told them "spin it out to however many pages would make a book with a spine look plausible. If in doubt put another photo of Boris in. Oh and throw a couple of BME people in there as well, make it look like we've got black friends and therefore can't be racist."


----------



## gosub (Nov 24, 2019)

As a result of an earlier Brexit legal skirmish, manifestos mean fuck all anyway The court case that proves you can't sue politicians for breaking their election promises


----------



## Humberto (Nov 25, 2019)

It just shows the state for what it is that a committed, serious candidate gets more unfavourable press than a waffly completely untrustworthy 'but can turn on the charm' Etonian. The default winner. In all honesty, the future of the majority of the people in this country relies on the Labour leadership's ability to reach out beyond the committed supporters and signed up members. How? Make them fear another Conservative party government... by being honest and blunt.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 25, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> 64 pages, 52 once you take out the full-page pics and blanks (which is still very generous - if you take out the half-page pics it drops to around 48 I reckon). including nine separate shots of either Boris or men in hard hats holding as big sign saying 'We Love Boris'.
> 
> The whole thing [PDF] reads like they handed in a bunch of scrawled notes on some old receipts to the designer and told them "spin it out to however many pages would make a book with a spine look plausible. If in doubt put another photo of Boris in. Oh and throw a couple of BME people in there as well, make it look like we've got black friends and therefore can't be racist."


The real surprise has to be that it’s more than 3 words long.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> I keep seeing people talking about the number of young voters registering to vote - hundreds of thousands, someone said 1.5 million... but then I think _what if they're all registering to vote lib dem? _


Can't say I've looked into it, but things must have changed a bit since the introduction of individual rather than household (or University Hall) registration. In other words, there's always likely to be more late registration of younger voters nowadays. Labour benefits from it, but it's not in itself _necessarily _a sign of a mini 'surge'. I think what I'm trying to say is that a fair % of these younger voters would have been on the register anyway 20 years ago.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 25, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> People complain about "the cult of Corbyn", but the Conservative manifesto has Johnson on the front cover and the Lib Dems bus not only has Jo Swinson on the side of it but also the title "Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats".
> 
> Farage, by comparison, looking positively humble.
> 
> Manifesto is still much lighter than Labour's.



Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats sounds like a breakaway version of a successful band.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

Party leaders personality polling.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 25, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm not sure a policy of disbanding the armed forces would have a positive impact on polling for labour tbh



of course not. but those most concerned about a labour victory are labour socialists, but this manifesto is not even a reform orientated socialist one.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Farage, by comparison, looking positively humble.



Farage is a far bigger wanker than Johnson, and that's a tough act to beat.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Party leaders personality polling.




I keep saying this but I'm told I'm a cunt for doing so. Corbyn is working for the tories, not against them.
Before some silly fucker tells me I'm accusing Corbyn of being a tory spy, not at all, just he's fucking useless to might as well be.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

I was asked what I believe Labour should do to improve their poll numbers, so have the first post on that subject.

Housing, especially affordable housing. There are many problems here but both parties are ignoring the best ways of solving the issues.


Ban all non-UK residents from buying any property hasn't been on the market for at least six months from the first properly advertised offer date in the UK, but the price can't be lowered without resetting the clock.
Tax the merry fuck out of any non-UK residents with more than one property so making it either unattractive, or raising money to build new council housing.
Build as many new council houses as possible within the limits funds allow with only minimal borrowing
Offer massive tax incentives to private builders who build affordable housing (Sales and rentals with a specified maximum price) on brownfield sites, but only if they cap the sale or rental price to an agreed maximum. Builders can still make money, but the upshot is cheaper housing. It would also be possible to make the buyer's contract state it can only be sold back to the builder within 5 years of the sale date, then only at cost + pre-negotiated interest.
The availability of cheaper housing will force down prices in general, the only losers being estate agents, and who gives a fuck about that lot?

The tories have nothing to moan about or attack Labour for, can't without looking like bastards, and only estate agents will get hammered - no loss there.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 25, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The real surprise has to be that it’s more than 3 words long.



There was only one aim for the manifesto: no May style blowing off their own feet. In that they’ve succeeded.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Ban all non-UK residents from buying any property hasn't been on the market for at least six months from the first properly advertised offer date in the UK, but the price can't be lowered without resetting the clock.
> Tax the merry fuck out of any non-UK residents with more than one property so making it either unattractive, or raising money to build new council housing.



Racist



Don Troooomp said:


> The tories have nothing to moan about or attack Labour for, can't without looking like bastards, and only estate agents will get hammered - no loss there.


Yes, very important that whatever labour do they don't upset the Tories. 

You must have loved Tony Blair.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Racist



How can it be racist when it applies to all, including white British expats?
I said non-residents, not foreigners, but perhaps you're too stupid to be able to read properly.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 25, 2019)

Corbyn was elected Labour leader by due process. From memory he was against Kendall, Burnham and Cooper but the membership chose him, he was not the 'mystery prize' but an MP who was known.
If there is a problem with his leadership it is down to the wider party for electing him or for not throwing up a popular alternative, it is not the fault of Corbyn being Corbyn.
Tories elected Boris Johnson in full knowledge that he is a lying sneering duplicitous privileged cunt who can spout a bit of Latin.
If the complaint is that party members are being manipulated by either Momentum or Hedge Fund Managers then that is rather a desperate position, and also rather patronising.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yes, very important that whatever labour do they don't upset the Tories.



My god, you're stupid.
This will upset the tories in a big way, but they can't moan about it without looking bad as there are no losers except estate agents. Even builders can make a profit, so they have nothing to worry about.
Please learn to fucking read, that or stop with the pathetic trolling


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

philosophical said:


> Corbyn was elected Labour leader by due process. From memory he was against Kendall, Burnham and Cooper but the membership chose him



Everybody makes mistakes, or did the British public get things right when they voted Brexit?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I was asked what I believe Labour should do to improve their poll numbers, so have the first post on that subject.
> 
> Housing, especially affordable housing. There are many problems here but both parties are ignoring the best ways of solving the issues.
> 
> ...



You make some interesting suggestions.

As a side note - my mum has just returned from a short break in London with friends and she remarked about the insanity of the capitals house prices.  She saw one 3 bed house (smaller than her house) on the market for £27million and a 4 bedroom flat on the rental market for £18k per week or £13k per week on a long term lease.  

She also noticed quite a few people sleeping rough around London.  Such insane wealth yet abject poverty side by side.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Racist



A Monaco Family Amassed A $130 Million Property Portfolio In London’s West End In Months

Capitalist lover


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

I wonder - Brain fart

High rise blocks are commonly seen as undesirable because they tend to be concrete and not a lot more, but what would happen if a multi story car park like structure was populated with detached housing on the edges, complete with small city view private gardens, and open communal areas in the middle?
Could promoting such a building program assist the housing crisis by creating cheap, popular housing that used little land?
Cheap to build because of low land usage, but tower blocks without the disadvantages of tower blocks.
Just looked -Someone beat me to it

Multistorey car park in US transformed into designer micro-apartments

Vote winner for next time?


----------



## Poi E (Nov 25, 2019)

Shopping malls, too. Prefab units dropped in. Keeps embodied carbon captured relative to knocking down and building again.


----------



## Lorca (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> You make some interesting suggestions.
> 
> As a side note - my mum has just returned from a short break in London with friends and she remarked about the insanity of the capitals house prices.  She saw one 3 bed house (smaller than her house) on the market for £27million and a 4 bedroom flat on the rental market for £18k per week or £13k per week on a long term lease.
> 
> She also noticed quite a few people sleeping rough around London.  Such insane wealth yet abject poverty side by side.



who are you voting for Marty1?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

Lorca said:


> who are you voting for Marty1?



Undecided.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> You make some interesting suggestions.
> 
> As a side note - my mum has just returned from a short break in London with friends and she remarked about the insanity of the capitals house prices.  She saw one 3 bed house (smaller than her house) on the market for £27million and a 4 bedroom flat on the rental market for £18k per week or £13k per week on a long term lease.
> 
> She also noticed quite a few people sleeping rough around London.  Such insane wealth yet abject poverty side by side.


i suspect there's a decimal point missing in your £27m


----------



## YouSir (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Please learn to fucking read, that or stop with the pathetic trolling



Oh the irony.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> My god, you're stupid.
> This will upset the tories in a big way, but they can't moan about it without looking bad as there are no losers except estate agents. Even builders can make a profit, so they have nothing to worry about.
> Please learn to fucking read, that or stop with the pathetic trolling


please learn to stop making up lies or stop with the pathetic trolling you subliterate piece of rancid monkey shit


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> just don't respond to him, it's pointless.


.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 25, 2019)

I’m reading a history of India at the moment. John Keay. It’s a good read. Surprisingly engaging writing style, despite the often esoteric primary sources.


----------



## JimW (Nov 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m reading a history of India at the moment. John Keay. It’s a good read. Surprisingly engaging writing style, despite the often esoteric primary sources.


That Chola dynasty, eh?


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Can't say I've looked into it, but things must have changed a bit since the introduction of individual rather than household (or University Hall) registration. In other words, there's always likely to be more late registration of younger voters nowadays. Labour benefits from it, but it's not in itself _necessarily _a sign of a mini 'surge'. I think what I'm trying to say is that a fair % of these younger voters would have been on the register anyway 20 years ago.


I wasn't serious btw, no fucker is going to end up voting Lib Dem this time round: I do have some concerns about the way the voter registrations seem to be being thought of as a bloc Labour vote though - I remember around the referendum lots of people voted for the first time (and presumably had to register to do so) in order to vote out - lots of these registrations could be the same this time round, except to vote tory. Fact is we don't really know...


----------



## philosophical (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Everybody makes mistakes, or did the British public get things right when they voted Brexit?


 I have not noticed a lot of Brexit voters saying they made a mistake,  most say they knew what they were voting for.
The British public voted leave,  the problem is being connected to the EU via the land border in Ireland.


----------



## chilango (Nov 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wasn't serious btw, no fucker is going to end up voting Lib Dem this time round: I do have some concerns about the way the voter registrations seem to be being thought of as a bloc Labour vote though - I remember around the referendum lots of people voted for the first time (and presumably had to register to do so) in order to vote out - lots of these registrations could be the same this time round, except to vote tory. Fact is we don't really know...



There's been a big(ish) registration drive at my Uni (although here I fear there's plenty of posh kids who _would_ vote Tory -  if they could be arsed) and that seems to be the case nationwide. I've seen figures floated on Twitter for the number of these registrations being younger voters. I think a degree of _hope_ that this could boost Labour, and that this is not being reflected in the polls, is justified. Whether it's enough is a much harder question.


----------



## PR1Berske (Nov 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> I keep seeing people talking about the number of young voters registering to vote - hundreds of thousands, someone said 1.5 million... but then I think _what if they're all registering to vote lib dem? _


One thing to note. Remember that we don't have a national voting system where seats are allocated in proportion to votes; we have 650 individual contests, some more sealed off from the national picture than others.

I noticed in 2017 that some Labour figures - Corbyn and Lammy amongst them - got over 40,000 votes in their constituencies while the Labour Party lost near by marginals by a few hundred or a thousand or so. If all these new voters vote Labour, but do so in already safe seats, their support really isn't helping.

Votes matter in the marginals and target seats. So in Twickenham, say, not Tottenham.

It'll be interesting to see if this happens again, where prominent MPs are elected by mammoth scores while neighbouring seats are lost by a handful. Remember the old adage; "A majority of one is a win, anything more is showing off."


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 25, 2019)

chilango said:


> There's been a big(ish) registration drive at my Uni (although here I fear there's plenty of posh kids who _would_ vote Tory -  if they could be arsed) and that seems to be the case nationwide. I've seen figures floated on Twitter for the number of these registrations being younger voters. I think a degree of _hope_ that this could boost Labour, and that this is not being reflected in the polls, is justified. Whether it's enough is a much harder question.


The sense I get here from the polls and anecdotally is that the Labour vote here is going to collapse even further.  How that relates to what's happening in England, I don't really know.  My guess is that the Tories will have a working majority.  And then the Overton Window in the Labour Party will shift further right again.


----------



## chilango (Nov 25, 2019)

Something that's been tickling my reflections on this election is the though of voters turning on well-known MPs.

We're already hearing that there's an energetic campaign to unseat Johnson, many of us will no doubt be staying up in the hope of watching Swinson lose her seat and IDS is in danger.

We saw in the Brexit and AV referendums, as well as in the Euros, voters being increasingly savvy in using the tools available to them at the ballot box to try and send their own messages.

Given we've seen mounting hostility to the political class everywhere from the streets to the QT audience I wonder whether we could see voters deliberately turn on the more high-profile MPs of all Parties to express this disgust.

_One, two, many Portillo moments!_


----------



## chilango (Nov 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> The sense I get here from the polls and anecdotally is that the Labour vote here is going to collapse even further.  How that relates to what's happening in England, I don't really know.  My guess is that the Tories will have a working majority.  And then the Overton Window in the Labour Party will shift further right again.



I suspect the feeling on the ground here in the South East is very different from Scotland. The North and Midlands different again. Increasing divisions abound.


----------



## andysays (Nov 25, 2019)

chilango said:


> Something that's been tickling my reflections on this election is the though of voters turning on well-known MPs.
> 
> We're already hearing that there's an energetic campaign to unseat Johnson, many of us will no doubt be staying up in the hope of watching Swinson lose her seat and IDS is in danger.
> 
> ...


Not sure how this would work. As just pointed out, voters are in particular constituencies, which limits their ability to vote against high profile MPs in the way you seem to be suggesting.

I would be quite happy to switch my vote from Tottenham to Chingford so I could vote against IDS rather than for Lammy, who will win here whatever I do, but that's not how the system works.


----------



## chilango (Nov 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> Not sure how this would work. As just pointed out, voters are in particular constituencies, which limits their ability to vote against high profile MPs in the way you seem to be suggesting.
> 
> I would be quite happy to switch my vote from Tottenham to Chingford so I could vote against IDS rather than for Lammy, who will win here whatever I do, but that's not how the system works.



Of course, it would have to happen on a constituency level.


----------



## chilango (Nov 25, 2019)

chilango said:


> Of course, it would have to happen on a constituency level.



...and I'm not especially advocating it as a wider tactic, just musing whether its something we may see on a greater scale than before and lead to to some surprising results here and there.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> please learn to stop making up lies or stop with the pathetic trolling you subliterate piece of rancid monkey shit



How about commenting on my idea for social housing rather than trolling and insulting?


----------



## Poi E (Nov 25, 2019)

Putting people in car parking buildings? It's happening already 'Homeless' man found dying in freezing car park


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> How about commenting on my idea for social housing rather than trolling and insulting?


how's about you back up your claim about my supporting corbyn? but wait - your claim's nothing but hot air from a puffed up windbag. apology due, i think


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i suspect there's a decimal point missing in your £27m


So do I, but it's still a ridiculous sum of money


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> apology due, i think



True, when are you going to issue it?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2019)

Around 1% of this decade remains  

Let's see how much we can still fuck it up eh?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 25, 2019)

Just wondering in Swinson's constituency whether anti indy pro brexit voters will waste vote on tory, swing in behind libdems as anti SNP vote, or swing behind SNP to unseat Swinson.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Around 1% of this decade remains
> 
> Let's see how much we can still fuck it up eh?


if anyone can fuck it up, johnson's your man


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 25, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just wondering in Swinson's constituency whether anti indy pro brexit voters will waste vote on tory, swing in behind libdems as anti SNP vote, or swing behind SNP to unseat Swinson.


Don't think that is a very big voting bloc PT (ED 26.7% leave), and Tories have pretty consistently taken 4500-7500 votes.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wasn't serious btw, no fucker is going to end up voting Lib Dem this time round: I do have some concerns about the way the voter registrations seem to be being thought of as a bloc Labour vote though - I remember around the referendum lots of people voted for the first time (and presumably had to register to do so) in order to vote out - lots of these registrations could be the same this time round, except to vote tory. Fact is we don't really know...


Yeah, I was just responding to your post as it was on the same topic, agree with you about 'the youth' not being a libdem army. Similarly, I think I was getting to the same point about young/first time voters not being a 'Corbyn army'. They will probably be less tory and less brexity than other voters, but lesss and less a bloc as you say.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2019)

YouGov poll as at 12pm


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

Badgers said:


> YouGov poll as at 12pm
> 
> View attachment 190989


----------



## elbows (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> How about commenting on my idea for social housing rather than trolling and insulting?



A taste of your own medicine - being picked on for personality rather than policies, sounds a lot like your attitude to Corbyn.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> How about commenting on my idea for social housing rather than trolling and insulting?


yeh you're the only person round here allowed to troll and insult i suppose. you hand it out but you don't like it. you weak cunt.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 25, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, I was just responding to your post as it was on the same topic, agree with you about 'the youth' not being a libdem army. Similarly, I think I was getting to the same point about young/first time voters not being a 'Corbyn army'. They will probably be less tory and less brexity than other voters, but lesss and less a bloc as you say.


In 2017, young voters did represent a 'Corbyn army', just as much as older voters represented a 'May army', and given how overwhelmingly anti-brexit under-25s are, I would be surprised if this pattern were not repeated. It's crucial to Labour to get young people out to vote. 







These are striking figures, I think. A really rather huge majority of under-40s were Labour in 2017, and an equally huge majority of over-60s voted Tory. It goes beyond brexit, I think, in terms of the age divide in UK voting that has developed. But of course older people go and vote - that's an inbuilt advantage to the tories.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In 2017, young voters did represent a 'Corbyn army', just as much as older voters represented a 'May army', and given how overwhelmingly anti-brexit under-25s are, I would be surprised if this pattern were not repeated. It's crucial to Labour to get young people out to vote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Before this GE campaign started in earnest, YG produced a similar age-based analysis which offers a  'bench-mark' that contrasts significantly with the 2017 outcome. Obviously, there's opportunity for these to change through the present campaign:


----------



## bellaozzydog (Nov 25, 2019)

Just had my house doxed on Facebook photographs of my van and had my fb account maliciously reported


My crime, my van has Labour posters on it


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 25, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Before this GE campaign started in earnest, YG produced a similar age-based analysis which offers a  'bench-mark' that contrasts significantly with the 2017 outcome. Obviously, there's opportunity for these to change through the present campaign:
> 
> View attachment 190993


I'm not sure that's so different, tbh. Still tiny numbers for the tories among the young and tiny numbers for Labour among the old. I'd be surprised if the Greens did that well among the young come election day - I may be wrong, but I suspect many if not most of those will, unless they live somewhere like Brighton, go to Labour. And I'd also give at least a chance to some or many of those libdems among the young switching to labour. Similarly, most of those BP votes will go to the tories come election day. But even if these changes don't happen, those figures still show it as absolutely crucial to labour to get the youth vote out - the under-30s are still more than twice as likely to vote Labour as Tory.


----------



## binka (Nov 25, 2019)

bellaozzydog said:


> Just had my house doxed on Facebook photographs of my van and had my fb account maliciously reported
> 
> 
> My crime, my van has Labour posters on it


When my parents moved into their current house about 25 years ago the retired copper next door was furious that my dad put a labour poster in the window 'we dont vote labour round here!' within a week or so another half dozen houses in the street had them in the window too


----------



## flypanam (Nov 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 190991


Interesting, should also put some heavier regulations on letting agents. Ours has tried to take £150 quid from our deposit after the ban on letting fees.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Interesting, should also put some heavier regulations on letting agents. Ours has tried to take £150 quid from our deposit after the ban on letting fees.


they're scum, letting agents, they really are shitty


----------



## bellaozzydog (Nov 25, 2019)

binka said:


> When my parents moved into their current house about 25 years ago the retired copper next door was furious that my dad put a labour poster in the window 'we dont vote labour round here!' within a week or so another half dozen houses in the street had them in the window too



The post has got a proper stream of hateful right wing bullshit I only found out because a mate has the mad cunt on fb because he works as a barman in this blokes regular boozer


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

but the golden shower will still maintain a minority tory adminstration in office


----------



## elbows (Nov 25, 2019)




----------



## elbows (Nov 25, 2019)

The ghost of Tony Blair finds this to be the weirdest election, presumably because we actually have a serious ideological gap between the big parties. The mainstream aint the narrow ground it used to be when you were strutting your sellout stuff, chump.

First of these is just a screenshot I took, not the video.

 



Yes its entirely unsurprising that a Corbyn Labour government is Blairs stuff of nightmares. The public as some kind of monolithic consciousness, fuck off.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Nov 25, 2019)

WATCH: Tory hopeful caught 'blatantly' staging door-knock interview with friend in fake news scandal

What a donkey.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 25, 2019)

he's always doing this. It won't stop till he's dead, they were wheeling fatch out at election times for years


----------



## brogdale (Nov 25, 2019)

In Wales...



...reckon we know what bobble hat woman is thinking.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Nov 25, 2019)

Buddy Bradley said:


> WATCH: Tory hopeful caught 'blatantly' staging door-knock interview with friend in fake news scandal
> 
> What a donkey.



Was labour but jumped before he was pushed because of misogyny and racism no campaigning as Tory candidate.... cap fits etc


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In 2017, young voters did represent a 'Corbyn army', just as much as older voters represented a 'May army', and given how overwhelmingly anti-brexit under-25s are, I would be surprised if this pattern were not repeated. It's crucial to Labour to get young people out to vote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder how much the weather will affect the outcome. A cold December 12th that kept the oldies in their bungalows would be good news for Labour.


----------



## chilango (Nov 25, 2019)

Some guy on twitter reckoning the youth registration could count for an 8% shift in the polls.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I wonder how much the weather will affect the outcome. A cold December 12th that kept the oldies in their bungalows would be good news for Labour.


Do the tories have an on-the-ground army of volunteers lined up to drive people to the polling stations? They might need them.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

I am not convinced of any 'youthquake' happening, it didn't happen in 2017, not sure why it would happen this time, TBH.

The myth of the 2017 'youthquake' election


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am not convinced of any 'youthquake' happening, it didn't happen in 2017, not sure why it would happen this time, TBH.
> 
> The myth of the 2017 'youthquake' election


this article is not uncontested - this blog at LSE gives another view.

Why 2017 may have witnessed a Youthquake after all | British Politics and Policy at LSE


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do the tories have an on-the-ground army of volunteers lined up to drive people to the polling stations? They might need them.



Doubt it. The average tory party member is about 84 these days.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I wonder how much the weather will affect the outcome. A cold December 12th that kept the oldies in their bungalows would be good news for Labour.


The oldies are used to the cold having grown up in houses without central heating and winters that were a lot colder. I can't see that stopping them.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 25, 2019)

chilango said:


> Some guy on twitter reckoning the youth registration could count for an 8% shift in the polls.



Rob Delaney the comedy writer and actor?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 25, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> The oldies are used to the cold having grown up in houses without central heating and winters that were a lot colder. I can't see that stopping them.


Snow and ice will stop a lot of old people, no matter how determined they might be. If it's icy, and there's nobody to take her, my mum won't be voting. It's nothing to do with a stoical attitude - grew up in the 40s, survived the blitz, etc, but that was then. It's to do with having old bodies that can't do what they used to be able to do.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Rob Delaney the comedy writer and actor?


that's him. He's better known as a campaigner for the NHS these days though.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Snow and ice will stop a lot of old people, no matter how determined they might be. If it's icy, and there's nobody to take her, my mum won't be voting. It's nothing to do with a stoical attitude - grew up in the 40s, survived the blitz, etc, but that was then. It's to do with having old bodies that can't do what they used to be able to do.


Current forecast is for a bit of sleet for the 12th. If it's right I can't see that stopping them.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do the tories have an on-the-ground army of volunteers lined up to drive people to the polling stations? They might need them.


Can't find any data to confirm this, but I've always been led to believe that the tories have been more successful at getting their supporters to vote postally (_granny farming_). It will be interesting to see quite how much a mid-winter GE drives up the PV rate.



> Postal votes accounted for *21.6%* of all votes included at the [2017 GE] count. This compares with 20.5% in 2015 and 18.8% in 2009.


 Source

I'm figuring that the % could well reach 25% what with the traditional high PV turnout and the chance that the weather/dark might dissuade some turn-up voting.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2019)

Where are the police?


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 25, 2019)

Time to start stealing the contents of grit bins in Tory-leaning wards.


----------



## andysays (Nov 25, 2019)

If the terms of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act are followed in future (and that's a big if, TBH) we can look forward to further General Elections in December.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> If the terms of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act are followed in future (and that's a big if, TBH) we can look forward to further General Elections in December.



If the Tories get a majority, I suspect the Fixed-term Parliaments Act will be repealed.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> If the terms of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act are followed in future (and that's a big if, TBH) we can look forward to further General Elections in December.


Both parties who might form a government have committed to repealing


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 25, 2019)

They’ll scrap that act. Presumably they’ll also be reducing the number of constituencies as previously proposed and gerrymandering the new seats (they’d already started doing this IIRC). Would be nice if they didn’t get away with this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> If the terms of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act are followed in future (and that's a big if, TBH) we can look forward to further General Elections in December.


The ftpa seemed like a good idea at the time...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The ftpa seemed like a good idea at the time...



... by the LibDems, to secure their 5 years in ministerial roles.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> ... by the LibDems, to secure their 5 years in ministerial roles.


Should have made parliaments annual, conceding the chartists' final unfulfilled demand


----------



## andysays (Nov 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Should have made parliaments annual, conceding the chartists' final unfulfilled demand


So you want an election *every* December, you bastard. Won't somebody think of the Nativity plays...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> So you want an election *every* December, you bastard. Won't somebody think of the Nativity plays...


I am indeed, thinking of the part politicians could play as the victims of king herod's soldiers in the massacre of the innocents

Not that any of them would get to reprise the role in subsequent years


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I was asked what I believe Labour should do to improve their poll numbers, so have the first post on that subject.
> 
> Housing, especially affordable housing. There are many problems here but both parties are ignoring the best ways of solving the issues.
> 
> ...



Why make private buyers borrow at higher interest rates than available to the government, to build homes that the developers will need to recoup the cost of (including any dividends to share holders) in the relatively short term? Why not let the government borrow cheaply to build homes which can be offered at genuinely affordable rents and the costs recouped over the many decades long life time of the properties? In other words why go for the more costly solution, the costs of which fall on those less able to pay, rather than the cheaper alternative, the costs of which can be shared more equitably across society?

But thanks for coming back with some content re. your prefered sensible socialism (even if it isn't either very sensible or very socialist). Keep up the good work.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 25, 2019)

Actually to make use of the inadvertent double posting, I should point out that the costs of building council housing can be and has been recouped many times over over the lifespan of the housing. It all seems like a bit of a win win...unless of course you have a very strong ideological predilection for the 'free market' as your prefered housing provider. 

Hey ho - Louis MacNeice


----------



## MrSki (Nov 25, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do the tories have an on-the-ground army of volunteers lined up to drive people to the polling stations? They might need them.


A lot of elderly voters have a postal vote. It is a shame the RM strike was blocked.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> They’ll scrap that act. Presumably they’ll also be reducing the number of constituencies as previously proposed and gerrymandering the new seats (they’d already started doing this IIRC). Would be nice if they didn’t get away with this.



At least they won't be able to do it based on the 2015 electoral roll as originally planned. Probably.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 25, 2019)

A mistake? Changed the whole story of the clip.


----------



## Combustible (Nov 25, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Time to start stealing the contents of grit bins in Tory-leaning wards.


Wouldn't flooding the postboxes be a better bet


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

I'm getting a little weary of this constant pulling the BBC up on all of their fuckeries as if each new example of the same old shit is somehow a new low, rather than a mere continuation of a clearly established policy. If the left can't effect change without the state broadcaster on side, well what would it cost to get them on side? More tory-lite bullshit, not that that did Miliband Jr much good either with the media or the electorate.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Nov 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Rob Delaney the comedy writer and actor?



This gives me hay fever


----------



## teqniq (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank I kinda see your point and yeah fair enough. But they are supposed to be unbiased when they are very obviously not. That's twice they changed the story of how this came about and now it's a 'mistake'. It would seem that quite a few people are pissed off with them over this and I'm guessing they've had a lot of complaints.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 25, 2019)

Orgreave.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

teqniq said:


> SpookyFrank I kinda see your point and yeah fair enough. But they are supposed to be unbiased when they are very obviously not. That's twice they changed the story of how this came about and now it's a 'mistake'. It would seem that quite a few people are pissed off with them over this and I'm guessing they've had a lot of complaints.



It pisses me off too, I just don't think that any of this should come as a surprise, or that endlessly moaning about it is going to change anything.


----------



## andysays (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm getting a little weary of this constant pulling the BBC up on all of their fuckeries as if each new example of the same old shit is somehow a new low, rather than a mere continuation of a clearly established policy. If the left can't effect change without the state broadcaster on side, well what would it cost to get them on side? More tory-lite bullshit, not that that did Miliband Jr much good either with the media or the electorate.



It's not being argued as a new low though, is it? It is generally being pointed out as the continuation of a clearly established pattern, though some observers may be less aware of the existence of the pattern.



SpookyFrank said:


> It pisses me off too, I just don't think that any of this should come as a surprise, or that endlessly moaning about it is going to change anything.



I look forward to the cessation of your seemingly endless moaning about a variety of subjects with immediate effect...


----------



## teqniq (Nov 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Orgreave.



Is this a reference to distortion of facts by them during the miners strike? If so then the differnce is that it's far easier to call them out over it now than it was then.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 25, 2019)

Just had the first election leaflet. A really dull, poorly produced pamphlet from PC. I’m in a supposedly three way marginal (PC held, Labour 2nd, then Tories). Brexit party have just moved their candidate from next door, which is a Tory seat...to ‘not fight’ the Tories? But this is a Tory target seat, albeit about number 80 on their list.

Go figure. At least it should guarantee a split vote for the Tories.


----------



## magneze (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It pisses me off too, I just don't think that any of this should come as a surprise, or that endlessly moaning about it is going to change anything.


If no one complains, likelihood is that it gets worse..


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

andysays said:


> It's not being argued as a new low though, is it? It is generally being pointed out as the continuation of a clearly established pattern, though some observers may be less aware of the existence of the pattern.



There's definitely a lot of hyperbole going on. A lot of it seems to be based on the idea that there are some grown ups somewhere in a position to give the BBC a clip round the ear and make them stop being naughty. There aren't. It's all just bootlickers as far as the eye can see.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 25, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Is this a reference to distortion of facts by them during the miner strike? If so then the differnce is that it's far easier to call them out over it now than it was then.


Just saying they’ve been doing it forever and keep doing it.

Battle of Orgreave - Wikipedia

(Trying to link straight to the media coverage section. Not working, but scroll down).


----------



## teqniq (Nov 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Just saying they’ve been doing it forever and keep doing it.
> 
> Battle of Orgreave - Wikipedia


Yeah fair ernough too, but now I think particularly with the advent of social media people share stuff and the story gets out there more effectively. This has to a dergree caught them on the back foot. Witness the latest development - it was a 'mistake'. Weasel words really but they must be feeling the heat a bit to come out with it and actually it just makes them look more duplicitious in the end.


----------



## weltweit (Nov 25, 2019)

Have they published the unedited footage yet?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2019)

Love their work


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It pisses me off too, I just don't think that any of this should come as a surprise, or that endlessly moaning about it is going to change anything.


Bit defeatist that


----------



## Ted Striker (Nov 25, 2019)

In the Crick of It


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I wonder how much the weather will affect the outcome. A cold December 12th that kept the oldies in their bungalows would be good news for Labour.



many are postal votes, one of the things I learnt from the Lol Duffy/Linda Chalker battle in Wallasey in the 87 election, is to have plenty of vehicles to get people to the polling stations, if you live on a large council estate it can be some way, same with rural, labour had plenty of transport in the cities in 2017, but not sure about the former.


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2019)

chilango said:


> Some guy on twitter reckoning the youth registration could count for an 8% shift in the polls.




isn't tomorrow last day? get tweeting, social media, etc.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

According to BBC News, 9.4 million haven’t registered to vote, that includes 34% of 18-19 year olds, compared to just 6% of those aged 65+


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

treelover said:


> isn't tomorrow last day? get tweeting, social media, etc.



Yes.


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2019)

MrSki said:


> A mistake? Changed the whole story of the clip.




yes, like the editing at Orgreave was a mistake


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> According to BBC News, 9.4 million haven’t registered to vote, that includes 34% of 18-19 year olds, compared to just 6% of those aged 65+



anyone know what % of 18/19 yr olds voted in 79/83


----------



## belboid (Nov 25, 2019)

treelover said:


> anyone know what % of 18/19 yr olds voted in 79/83


low 60's


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

treelover said:


> anyone know what % of 18/19 yr olds voted in 79/83


How Britain Voted Since October 1974


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 25, 2019)

belboid said:


> low 60's
> 
> View attachment 191036


and I was one of them


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 25, 2019)

belboid said:


> low 60's



Sixtie’s.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Why make private buyers borrow at higher interest rates than available to the government, to build homes that the developers will need to recoup the cost of (including any dividends to share holders) in the relatively short term? Why not let the government borrow cheaply to build homes which can be offered at genuinely affordable rents and the costs recouped over the many decades long life time of the properties? In other words why go for the more costly solution, the costs of which fall on those less able to pay, rather than the cheaper alternative, the costs of which can be shared more equitably across society?
> 
> But thanks for coming back with some content re. your prefered sensible socialism (even if it isn't either very sensible or very socialist). Keep up the good work.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



The government would have to put no money into private built houses (No public borrowing) and not actually lose any taxes raised as there would be zero without the projects, but the goal of low cost housing would still be achieved. Add the fact builders would still make a profit, albeit more limited, and that stops any possibility the tories can complain without looking bad.
No losers (except estate agents), lots of winners, and the lower priced homes would have a downward effect on pricing in the area.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Also, much reduced spending by the government on housing means more for the NHS and other extremely important sectors.
NHS next, and more of the same no loser but lots of winners.

The NHS is a mess, much of that being tory fucking about, but a lot being down to really crap management. I'm not quite ready for posting the thoughts just yet, but they involve more win-win ideas.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Also, much reduced spending by the government on housing means more for the NHS and other extremely important sectors.
> NHS next, and more of the same no loser but lots of winners.
> 
> The NHS is a mess, much of that being tory fucking about, but a lot being down to really crap management. I'm not quite ready for posting the thoughts just yet, but they involve more win-win ideas.



You do understand the different between day-to-day spending, such as on the NHS, and borrowing for investment in, for example, council houses, where you have an asset to off-set against that investment?

That, of course, is a rhetorical question, because clearly you are too fucking thick to understand that.


----------



## maomao (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The NHS is a mess, much of that being tory fucking about, but a lot being down to really crap management. I'm not quite ready for posting the thoughts just yet, but they involve more win-win ideas.


Brown's 'sensible socialism' in the shape of PFI has done as much if not more damage to the NHS than that cunt Lansley did.

And lowering house prices not really widely considered a vote winner especially amongst the demographic that do the most voting. Which isn't to say that this shouldn't happen but I'm not sure pretty boy Starmer would go down so well with the swing voters if he was promising to knock a third off the value of everyone's houses. Whereas every poll suggests that renationalising the utilities is a widely popular policy.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> between day-to-day spending, such as on the NHS, and borrowing for investment in, for example, council houses, where you have an asset to off-set against that investment?



You want to allow sales of council homes, one of only two ways to turn spending into investment?
The only other way is making a profit on rentals, but I would argue rentals should be break even plus a little put aside for improvements and repair, but no more.
Low rental costs would be really nasty hit on greedy landlords and their ever rising rents as easy availability of cheap rents would kill their ability to keep their own prices high.
I would not allow Thatcher style selling off for any reason, and only break even rents, thus that's spending, not investment.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

Jesus, FFS what are you on about Don, you thick twat?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

maomao said:


> And lowering house prices not really widely considered a vote winner especially amongst the demographic that do the most voting. Which isn't to say that this shouldn't happen but I'm not sure pretty boy Starmer would go down so well with the swing voters if he was promising to knock a third off the value of everyone's houses.


Something that really doesn't get talked about a lot - but which the landlord and property-owning/investing sectors I'm sure are very aware of, which basically means pretty much all rich people because they've all invested in property even if they don't manage it - is that any successful* housing policy is going to mean a property price crash. There just isn't any way around it.

* Successful in the sense of "making it possible for people to have secure homes for amounts that they can afford".


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

maomao said:


> Brown's 'sensible socialism' in the shape of PFI has done as much if not more damage to the NHS than that cunt Lansley did.



That's because PFI wasn't sensible. To be sensible it must achieve the goal of 100% free health care, or at least improve the situation - didn't happen.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The government would have to put no money into private built houses (No public borrowing) and not actually lose any taxes raised as there would be zero without the projects, but the goal of low cost housing would still be achieved. Add the fact builders would still make a profit, albeit more limited, and that stops any possibility the tories can complain without looking bad.
> No losers (except estate agents), lots of winners, and the lower priced homes would have a downward effect on pricing in the area.



Where do the people you are expecting to buy these homes get the money from? What interest rates can they borrow at and over what length of time? What do they forego spending on and how does that tied up capital effect the rest of the economy? And vitally how do you limit how much builders can charge, while still encouraging them to build? 

You seem to be looking at this just from a 'what would make headlines' point of view, rather than what would actually provide the most affordable housing at the lowest capital outlay. Don't get blinded by the 'style' of the battle over party political soundbite above  the 'substance' of might provide/has provided actual real world solutions...council housing successfully provided homes for a third of the population for many years. It was attacked for a reason(s) which wasn't to do with the efficient delivery of appropriate, secure and affordable homes. It's an interesting and important history you should look into; it will open up more possibilities than you currently seem to invisage.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Something that really doesn't get talked about a lot - but which the landlord and property-owning/investing sectors I'm sure are very aware of, which basically means pretty much all rich people because they've all invested in property even if they don't manage it - is that any successful* housing policy is going to mean a property price crash. There just isn't any way around it.
> 
> * Successful in the sense of "making it possible for people to have secure homes for amounts that they can afford".



House prices falling are often seen as bad for homeowners, but if you only own a house so you can live in it then it doesn't make that much difference. Maybe it grates a bit if your mortgage payments don't go down to reflect the present value of your property but ultimately you still have a place to live, and also a lot of other people have a better chance at having a place to live. A general fall in prices doesn't make it any harder to sell up and move elsewhere.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> You want to allow sales of council homes, one of only two ways to turn spending into investment?
> The only other way is making a profit on rentals, but I would argue rentals should be break even plus a little put aside for improvements and repair, but no more.
> Low rental costs would be really nasty hit on greedy landlords and their ever rising rents as easy availability of cheap rents would kill their ability to keep their own prices high.
> I would not allow Thatcher style selling off for any reason, and only break even rents, thus that's spending, not investment.



How do impose low cost rentals on private landlords (e.g rents at break even plus a little extra for improvement repairs)? It can be done but imagine the media outcry you were so concerned with earlier.

Surely it would be easier to have democratically accountable landlords with very long term financial commitments to and statutory obligations for the provision of appropriate, affordable and secure housing?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

MrSki said:


> A lot of elderly voters have a postal vote. It is a shame the RM strike was blocked.



One day you’ll be elderly.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> any successful* housing policy is going to mean a property price crash. There just isn't any way around it.



Absolutely, and the only way to do that is create an alternative that puts them out of business or forces them to change.
Easy to find affordable rental housing will stop them in their tracks, another downward pressure on the sales market as buy to let will die.

Can I suggest crash is bad, but a steady downward trend over a few years of building is good.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> One day you’ll be elderly.



But I'll never be a fucking tory.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Can I suggest crash is bad, but a steady downward trend over a few years of building is good.



Price bubbles do not traditionally deflate in a controlled fashion.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Absolutely, and the only way to do that is create an alternative that puts them out of business or forces them to change.
> Easy to find affordable rental housing will stop them in their tracks, another downward pressure on the sales market as buy to let will die.



You mean like Labour's policy to build loads of new council houses?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> You mean like Labour's policy to build loads of new council houses?



No, because that's mad commie talk. First it's council houses then it's salt mines, every single time.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Something that really doesn't get talked about a lot - but which the landlord and property-owning/investing sectors I'm sure are very aware of, which basically means pretty much all rich people because they've all invested in property even if they don't manage it - is that any successful* housing policy is going to mean a property price crash. There just isn't any way around it.
> 
> * Successful in the sense of "making it possible for people to have secure homes for amounts that they can afford".



A nationwide property price crash or just down South?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> House prices falling are often seen as bad for homeowners, but if you only own a house so you can live in it then it doesn't make that much difference. Maybe it grates a bit if your mortgage payments don't go down to reflect the present value of your property but ultimately you still have a place to live, and also a lot of other people have a better chance at having a place to live. A general fall in prices doesn't make it any harder to sell up and move elsewhere.


For individuals it's generally okay as long as they weren't relying on that money to fund social care - and a proper social care plan would remove that issue too.

But let's face it, if anyone was prepared to talk about it, it could still be a big issue. "Labour's plans will cause property price crashes and take away all that money you've earned!" Except that to do that, they'd have to also admit that it really _was_ a choice between affordable housing and the increasing profits of property owners, and there increasingly tend to be more votes for the latter and less for the former.

Property needs to crash - I've been saying this for years, decades in fact. The longer it takes the worse it will be when it does, and if you can guarantee anything it will be that it _will_ crash eventually, so let's get it over with ASAP. Right now it won't be fun because of how much the financial system in this country is tied to property, including pension funds etc, and you can bet they will try to take us down with them (or first). But it will just be worse the bigger the bubble gets.


----------



## maomao (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Something that really doesn't get talked about a lot - but which the landlord and property-owning/investing sectors I'm sure are very aware of, which basically means pretty much all rich people because they've all invested in property even if they don't manage it - is that any successful* housing policy is going to mean a property price crash. There just isn't any way around it.
> 
> * Successful in the sense of "making it possible for people to have secure homes for amounts that they can afford".


Absolutely. We were promised sure fire vote winners though.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> A nationwide property price crash or just down South?


It would be much more significant in the London area as that's where the prices are the most inflated.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

maomao said:


> Absolutely. We were promised sure fire vote winners though.


Labour certainly won't be talking about it and, for reasons I've mentioned above, the Tories won't either.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It would be much more significant in the London area as that's where the prices are the most inflated.



Loads of southerners up here living in rural mansions after no doubt cashing in on their London commuter belt house/s.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Property needs to crash - I've been saying this for years, decades in fact. The longer it takes the worse it will be when it does, and if you can guarantee anything it will be that it _will_ crash eventually, so let's get it over with ASAP. Right now it won't be fun because of how much the financial system in this country is tied to property, including pension funds etc, and you can bet they will try to take us down with them (or first). But it will just be worse the bigger the bubble gets.



Brexit could easily cause a property crash. If offshore capital no longer thinks that luxury flats in London or Manchester are a good place to piggybank cash, that could be a lot of money disappearing from the system more or less overnight. This is one of the reasons I'm ambivalent on the whole leave/remain thing.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Property needs to crash - I've been saying this for years, decades in fact. The longer it takes the worse it will be when it does, and if you can guarantee anything it will be that it _will_ crash eventually, so let's get it over with ASAP. Right now it won't be fun because of how much the financial system in this country is tied to property, including pension funds etc, and you can bet they will try to take us down with them (or first). But it will just be worse the bigger the bubble gets.


There was a crash in 2007, which many parts of the country haven't recovered from yet.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2019)

This somewhat brutal.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> There was a crash in 2007, which many parts of the country haven't recovered from yet.



And property and home debt was protected thoroughly.

Though I feel we have long reached the point where the defict between homes needed and homes actually in existence is such that there is no possible way to reduce housing costs to manageable levels. There just aren't enough empty properties.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Brexit could easily cause a property crash. If offshore capital no longer thinks that luxury flats in London or Manchester are a good place to piggybank cash, that could be a lot of money disappearing from the system more or less overnight. This is one of the reasons I'm ambivalent on the whole leave/remain thing.


Property crashes are one potentially good thing about Brexit, though given the Tories, if they were in control I'd assume they'd find some way to keep prices as they are.


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> And property and home debt was protected thoroughly.


who's property & home debt? Mine wasn't. I sold the house I bought in 2006 last year for £10,000 less than I paid for it.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> How do impose low cost rentals on private landlords (e.g rents at break even plus a little extra for improvement repairs)? It can be done but imagine the media outcry you were so concerned with earlier.



I mentioned tax breaks, or 100% forgiven tax on selected building projects, but only with agreement as to maximum sales and rental prices. Add council house building with no possibility of sale, and that's more cheap rents.
These cheap houses would force other rentals down because buy to let landlords would have no choice, and they'd probably go under bit by bit. That means even more downward pressure on house prices as they sold up. The only thing the tories could moan about is estate agents and greedy landlords that made the housing market go mad losing their businesses, and who likes that bunch?
The tories would be arguing for high rent and house prices, so shooting themselves in the foot. They aren't that idiotic as to complain, and involving private builders means they can't moan about projects and public without saying capitalism is bad and .. err, what public spending?
They could moan on about lost tax revenue, but tax that would never have been taken isn't lost.
However, the goal of cheap housing is realised.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2019)

killer b said:


> who's property & home debt? Mine wasn't. I sold the house I bought in 2006 last year for £10,000 less than I paid for it.



The banks mainly.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Property crashes are one potentially good thing about Brexit, though given the Tories, if they were in control I'd assume they'd find some way to keep prices as they are.



They might be in power, doesn't mean they're in control.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

I've long thought we need a housing policy thread around here, just never got around to starting one.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> There just aren't enough empty properties.


There are an enormous number of empty properties though. It's the pricing and distribution that is the big issue.

Eg Number of empty homes in England rises to more than 216,000 - ignore the nonsense quotes by the survey starters as they are a construction company


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They might be in power, doesn't mean they're in control.


No, and they would probably fuck it. It's always been one of the "potential pluses of Brexit" for me.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There are an enormous number of empty properties though. It's the pricing and distribution that is the big issue.
> 
> Eg Number of empty homes in England rises to more than 216,000 - ignore the nonsense quotes by the survey starters as they are a construction company



Which is less than a year's supply.

We are in a 30 year defict of housing, not enough have been built for years and we are fucked.

Not helped by many low value empty homes being where there's no work and to many industries focused in London.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> You mean like Labour's policy to build loads of new council houses?



A good policy, but private builders under strict pricing rules will mean less public spending and builders will love the massive boost in work, something the tories will have no answer to.
Cheap housing as a popular, vote winning policy, supported by the building industry who stand to gain in big ways, and shitall the tories can say against it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> A good policy, but private builders under strict pricing rules will mean less public spending and builders will love the massive boost in work, something the tories will have no answer to.
> Cheap housing as a popular, vote winning policy, supported by the building industry who stand to gain in big ways, and shitall the tories can say against it.



Building homes is not a vote winner sadly because while everyone wants more they also don't want them built anywhere near them.

"There's no room"
"Think of the green belt'
"I paid 300k for my house and more houses will lower the selling price"
"There's no services here as it is, we're not made of doctors"


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Which is less than a year's supply.



It's no supply at all because people can't afford the idiotic prices. The problem, as was said in the post you quoted, is pricing.
The solution to the housing crisis is fucking over estate agents and cheap building and cheap rents by contract does exactly that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Building homes is not a vote winner sadly because while everyone wants more they also don't want them built anywhere near them.
> 
> "There's no room"
> "Think of the green belt'
> ...



Also the houses built are almost universally bad, and in poorly planned estates. 

Saw a new development that's going up near me the other day. It's called Rivendell, because just like the magical Elven city from Lord of the Rings it's nestled between an industrial estate, a sewage works and a dual carriageway. And it's on a flood plain.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Building homes is not a vote winner sadly because while everyone wants more they also don't want them built anywhere near them.



True, hence using brownfield sites. Many old business areas still have very good roads, so more costs saved.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I mentioned tax breaks, or 100% forgiven tax on selected building projects, but only with agreement as to maximum sales and rental prices. Add council house building with no possibility of sale, and that's more cheap rents.
> These cheap houses would force other rentals down because buy to let landlords would have no choice, and they'd probably go under bit by bit. That means even more downward pressure on house prices as they sold up. The only thing the tories could moan about is estate agents and greedy landlords that made the housing market go mad losing their businesses, and who likes that bunch?
> The tories would be arguing for high rent and house prices, so shooting themselves in the foot. They aren't that idiotic as to complain, and involving private builders means they can't moan about projects and public without saying capitalism is bad and .. err, what public spending?
> They could moan on about lost tax revenue, but tax that would never have been taken isn't lost.
> However, the goal of cheap housing is realised.



You still haven't addressed where the money to buy these homes is coming from; remember these are to be homes that those on low incomes (including those on social security?) can afford? Why are you so willing to effectively get the poor (the potential target home owners) to pay the affluent developers (alongside your promised tax breaks) to make homes that local authorities could provide and maintain for less? 

You seem to want to appease pro-marketeers regarding the market's fitness to provide housing to everybody; a fitness which has been demonstrably lacking at least since the industrial revolution...it can't do it and it hasn't done it which is why we have had council/social housing and various forms of rent controls. You are putting much too much effort into not upsetting 'the tories' and missing the bigger prize of actually using capital 'sensibly' - i.e. cheaply and accountably - to provide the thing you claim to want; homes that meet people's needs, that they are secure in and that they can afford.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Also the houses built are almost universally bad, and in poorly planned estates.
> 
> Saw a new development that's going up near me the other day. It's called Rivendell, because just like the magical Elven city from Lord of the Rings it's nestled between an industrial estate, a sewage works and a dual carriageway. And it's on a flood plain.


They're all ripoff leasehold deals as well.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> True, hence using brownfield sites. Many old business areas still have very good roads, so more costs saved.



Also highly contaminated.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They're all ripoff leasehold deals as well.



Oh god yes, leasehold can fuck right off.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They're all ripoff leasehold deals as well.



Wouldn't surprise me. Round here you can always get a much nicer terraced house in an actual neighbourhood with bus stops and shops and stuff for less money than a new build on the edge of a shit suburb.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> It's no supply at all because people can't afford the idiotic prices. The problem, as was said in the post you quoted, is pricing.
> The solution to the housing crisis is fucking over estate agents and cheap building and cheap rents by contract does exactly that.



Estate agents are not responsible for house prices. Think about what happened to the availability of credit and council housing  between 1979 and now? Both of these have had a far greater impact than the desire of estate agents to make a bob or two.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, and they would probably fuck it. It's always been one of the "potential pluses of Brexit" for me.



So homeowners will get hammered?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You still haven't addressed where the money to buy these homes is coming from; remember these are to be homes that those on low incomes (including those on social security?) can afford? Why are you so willing to effectively get the poor (the potential target home owners) to pay the affluent developers (alongside your promised tax breaks) to make homes that local authorities could provide and maintain for less?



Between council house building and contracted low cost private building, there will be lots of homes available for all groups.
The beauty of using developers is zero public spending for those houses, and screwing up any arguments the tories can use against it.

Money for home owners to buy a house comes from the usual places, banks and so on, exactly as it does now, but the houses would be far cheaper and the sales contract would mean the buyer couldn't resell for a quick profit.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Estate agents are not responsible for house prices



Just back from the pub?
Between buy to let and estate agents, the pair are mostly responsible for the mess. The Thatcher government started the ball rolling, but that set of bastards are kicking it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

Well here is the thread I've been meaning to start for ages:

UK Housing Policy

In case anyone wants to take this interesting derail outside.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well here is the thread I've been meaning to start for ages:
> 
> UK Housing Policy
> 
> In case anyone wants to take this interesting derail outside.



Thank fuck for that.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 25, 2019)

68,000 followers


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> You want to allow sales of council homes, one of only two ways to turn spending into investment?
> The only other way is making a profit on rentals, but I would argue rentals should be break even plus a little put aside for improvements and repair, but no more.
> Low rental costs would be really nasty hit on greedy landlords and their ever rising rents as easy availability of cheap rents would kill their ability to keep their own prices high.
> I would not allow Thatcher style selling off for any reason, and only break even rents, thus that's spending, not investment.


Ignoring your complete ignorance of council housing revenue (iirc only about 30% goes back to the LA for repairs and renewals, you can have cheap rents and a return) isn't ending right to by on labour's crap manifesto and wasn't under any of the previous sensible socialists?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

Labour have the biggest spending plans by a long shot.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Labour have the biggest spending plans by a long shot.
> 
> View attachment 191044
> 
> View attachment 191045



But that's a good thing isn't it?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 25, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> But that's a good thing isn't it?



Who’s paying for it all?

And - is it true that Labour are pledging  a 200% tax on second homes?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Who’s paying for it all?


You.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> And - is it true that Labour are pledging  a 200% tax on second homes?



Seems like something you could look up for yourself.

But if they are, so what? Second homes are a blight on rural areas, simultaneously driving up prices for local folk while reducing the number of actual residents to support businesses, send their kids to schools etc. An increased contribution to the local authority in view of that is a pretty small price to pay, and no cunt with two houses can claim they can't afford it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Just back from the pub?
> Between buy to let and estate agents, the pair are mostly responsible for the mess. The Thatcher government started the ball rolling, but that set of bastards are kicking it.


If you got pissed now and then there'd be some excuse for your right wing pub bore bullshit.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Who’s paying for it all



This is what the tories always use to attack affordable housing and other social needs. Using private builders with strict rules means they make a profit, we get affordable housing, but public spending is massively reduced.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 25, 2019)

the biggest impact will be the BTL market- lots of people highly levereged on the basis that their 3 or 4 % yield will be enough to cover their running costs with the bonus of a constantly rising asset value as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Chuck in the few who have think they have beaten the system by ( usually ropey and not going to be able to withstand scrutiny) trust structures -They will be the first the blame the communists for stealing their pension pot.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty how much would you spend and on what in an election manifesto ?


----------



## Sue (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> This is what the tories always use to attack affordable housing and other social needs. Using private builders with strict rules means they make a profit, we get affordable housing, but public spending is massively reduced.


This makes no sense. Why not cut out the middle man?


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> 68,000 followers




I wonder if most are working class or not?


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 25, 2019)

treelover said:


> I wonder if most are working class or not?


In terms of voting patterns the Tories ( according to polls) have a higher vote percentage amongst the W/class than the middle class .


----------



## killer b (Nov 25, 2019)

treelover said:


> I wonder if most are working class or not?


it's twitter, so probably not


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 25, 2019)

Three separate things through the door from the limp dems today

They are making an effort to beat labour to second place here again...


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 25, 2019)

danny la rouge said:
			
		

> I’m reading a history of India at the moment. John Keay. It’s a good read. Surprisingly engaging writing style, despite the often esoteric primary sources.





JimW said:


> That Chola dynasty, eh?



That book looks like it's going to be vastly more fascinating than the General Ejection!**  

**  for somewhat _older_ GE veterans   , who've also read certain books about India


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 25, 2019)

Haven't had a leaflet or a door knock at all yet except a non glossy, b&w leaflet from the indy Jim Hakewell, a veteran Conservative local politician and councillor. I haven't bothered to find out why he's gone rogue, remain tory maybe.  Not that it matters either way, it'll be Hollobone back in again as usual unless he falls down some very steep stairs or chokes on his food. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Who’s paying for it all?
> 
> And - is it true that Labour are pledging  a 200% tax on second homes?



rich people hopefully and if they cannot afford to fuck of somewhere else

well my heart fucking bleeds


----------



## 8ball (Nov 25, 2019)

Anyone had a polling card yet?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 25, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> This is what the tories always use to attack affordable housing and other social needs. Using private builders with strict rules means they make a profit, we get affordable housing, but public spending is massively reduced.


So where do the private builders get their finance from? Oh, they borrow money, at interest, a higher interest rate than the state, or a local authority or housing association backed by the state, would pay. Why do you want the spending to be private rather than public? Why do you want very rich people to be given a profit? That's not very sensible.

Building housing using the public purse really is the easiest and best way to do it. The state/housing association/council take out a 30-year loan to pay for it (borrowing from, for instance, pension companies, which snap up such secure govt loans - so people's private pensions can get paid - but you could equally simply print the money, no reason at all not to). The loan is paid back by the rents. And at the end of 30 years the state/housing association/council owns the housing outright with the loan paid off. People get work building the housing on decent terms. People get a good place to live at an affordable and secure rent. Everyone wins, except the rich private financiers.

And before you start on some badly informed rant, the above is exactly how social housing was built in the past.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 25, 2019)

There is no doubt that voting for the Tories is voting for 'more of the same'. Labour should confidently get that across to people, that there is a real choice available. A much better alternative.

Whilst the Brexit Party support has swung behind the Tories, as nobody is surprised about; Labour can appeal on a broader prospectus to undecided potential voters over the next few weeks.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 25, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> And property and home debt was protected thoroughly.
> 
> Though I feel we have long reached the point where the defict between homes needed and homes actually in existence is such that there is no possible way to reduce housing costs to manageable levels. There just aren't enough empty properties.



Socialist campaign for labour to seize all assets of the DWP and any newspapers calling the disabled scroungers would be a start. but this country is full of the most toothless communists in existence they are literally jizzing over the DWP being renamed. Pathetic.


----------



## nogojones (Nov 25, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Who’s paying for it all?
> 
> And - is it true that Labour are pledging  a 200% tax on second homes?


How does that work then? If I had a 2nd house, say worth £100k, would I pay £200k in tax? A one off ? or every year?

It's almost like a made up figure


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 25, 2019)

8ball said:


> Anyone had a polling card yet?


Yes. Had mine for over a week.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 25, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Yes. Had mine for over a week.



Hmm, registered to vote ages ago - should look into that..


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Anyone had a polling card yet?



aye

still surprised the "turkeys voting for christmas is not a bigger" angle in the lead up to this


----------



## Raheem (Nov 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Hmm, registered to vote ages ago - should look into that..


You prolly know this, but you don't need the card to vote. Email the council and ask them to check if you are registered. Think you've basically got today to get it done otherwise.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 26, 2019)

Raheem said:


> You prolly know this, but you don't need the card to vote. Email the council and ask them to check if you are registered. Think you've basically got today to get it done otherwise.



Yeah, knew it wasn’t required, but didn’t know time was so short re: the card.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 26, 2019)

Apropos of nothing, ACAB.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Brexit could easily cause a property crash. If offshore capital no longer thinks that luxury flats in London or Manchester are a good place to piggybank cash, that could be a lot of money disappearing from the system more or less overnight. This is one of the reasons I'm ambivalent on the whole leave/remain thing.



A Brexit with Johnson in charge will not frighten them at all, he will absolutely gobble them off like he did when he was mayor. Look at what got built in that time, with all these agreements for ‘affordable’ homes renegotiated down to nothing.


----------



## Ground Elder (Nov 26, 2019)

nogojones said:


> How does that work then? If I had a 2nd house, say worth £100k, would I pay £200k in tax? A one off ? or every year?
> It's almost like a made up figure


 Double Council tax. Long called for down my way.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

nogojones said:


> How does that work then? If I had a 2nd house, say worth £100k, would I pay £200k in tax? A one off ? or every year?
> 
> It's almost like a made up figure



Page 80 of their manifesto.

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf


----------



## kebabking (Nov 26, 2019)

dialectician said:


> Socialist campaign for labour to seize all assets of the DWP and any newspapers calling the disabled scroungers would be a start. but this country is full of the most toothless communists in existence they are literally jizzing over the DWP being renamed. Pathetic.



You mean the DWP that is (and always has been) a wholy government owned, controlled and operated government department - and therefore it's assets are, and always have been owned entirely by the state, and then promising to shut down any media that says anything you don't like?

Is there a village somewhere looking for it's idiot?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

kebabking said:


> You mean the DWP that is (and always has been) a wholy government owned, controlled and operated government department - and therefore it's assets are, and always have been owned entirely by the state, and then promising to shut down any media that says anything you don't like?
> 
> Is there a village somewhere looking for it's idiot?


It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Anyone had a polling card yet?


Yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Hmm, registered to vote ages ago - should look into that..


Maybe you've been struck off


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

Lord Heseltine is advising people to vote for any rebel Tories standing, or the LibDems.


----------



## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Page 80 of their manifesto.
> 
> https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf


A new national levy on second homes? Where did you get 200% from and 200% of what?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

maomao said:


> A new national levy on second homes? Where did you get 200% from and 200% of what?



Its already been mentioned up thread, double council tax charge. 

Councils can and do currently charge up to 150% council tax on properties lying empty for a period of time (6 months usual for BTL).


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

dialectician said:


> Socialist campaign for labour to seize all assets of the DWP and any newspapers calling the disabled scroungers would be a start. but this country is full of the most toothless communists in existence they are literally jizzing over the DWP being renamed. Pathetic.


they are literally jizzing over the dwp?


----------



## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Its already been mentioned up thread, double council tax charge.
> 
> Councils can and do currently charge up to 150% council tax on properties lying empty for a period of time (6 months usual for BTL).


That's not a 200% tax.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

The 200% council tax figure has been widely reported TBF. 



> *Second homes tax*
> 
> Labour would introduce a tax on second homes that is equivalent to 200 per cent of the council tax bill for the property in question. This tax would apply to properties that are considered holiday homes, rather than second homes for employment purposes.
> 
> ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

> The analysis - which modelled 269,838 polling responses - also claims seven senior Tories including the Prime Minister could be at risk of losing their seats.
> 
> According to data provided to the Sunday Times, the likes of Boris Johnson , Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab , former Conservative leader Iain Duncan Smith and leading Brexiteer Steve Baker could all be ousted by tactical voting campaigns.
> 
> ...



Worth reading - General election poll projection claims Tories are set to win 48-seat majority


----------



## ignatious (Nov 26, 2019)

What happens if Johnson loses his seat? Can he be parachuted in somewhere or does it mean a Tory leadership election?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Worth reading - General election poll projection claims Tories are set to win 48-seat majority


especially this bit


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

ignatious said:


> What happens if Johnson loses his seat? Can he be parachuted in somewhere or does it mean a Tory leadership election?


it means we can scoff at the spaffing wanker


----------



## nogojones (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Page 80 of their manifesto.
> 
> https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf


Well as you were able to find it, can you point out where the figure of 200% comes from and the context please?  

The copy I've just checked seems to have that bit printed white on white


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Worth reading - General election poll projection claims Tories are set to win 48-seat majority


Given that I’m expecting a slim Tory majority, a Tory majority but with Johnson losing his seat would be pretty funny.


----------



## nogojones (Nov 26, 2019)

Ground Elder said:


> Double Council tax. Long called for down my way.


If you can afford a holiday home then you can stretch to double bubble on the council tax


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

ignatious said:


> What happens if Johnson loses his seat? Can he be parachuted in somewhere or does it mean a Tory leadership election?


They could get someone in a safe seat to resign so he can stand in a by-election. They might just take to opportunity to replace him with a different leader though


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

ignatious said:


> What happens if Johnson loses his seat? Can he be parachuted in somewhere or does it mean a Tory leadership election?


He _can_ be made a Lord. Lords can be cabinet members, and by extension I suppose PM. But I don’t think it would prove acceptable to general opinion.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> He _can_ be made a Lord. Lords can be cabinet members, and by extension I suppose PM. But I don’t think it would prove acceptable to general opinion.



No, the PM has to be in the Commons.



> Ultimately, this erosion of power led to the Parliament Act 1911, which marginalised the *Lords*' role in the legislative process and gave further weight to the convention that had developed over the previous century that a *prime minister* *cannot* *sit in the House of Lords*.
> 
> Prime Minister of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


----------



## strung out (Nov 26, 2019)

ignatious said:


> What happens if Johnson loses his seat? Can he be parachuted in somewhere or does it mean a Tory leadership election?


If the Tories have some kind of working majority, I'd expect a sitting Tory MP in a safe seat to step aside for Boris in a by-election. Anything else and it should mean Boris resigning, and another Tory leadership election.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, the PM has to be in the Commons.


I wondered. Fair enough.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Nov 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Anyone had a polling card yet?


yes , last week


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

strung out said:


> If the Tories have some kind of working majority, I'd expect a sitting Tory MP in a safe seat to step aside for Boris in a by-election. Anything else and it should mean Boris resigning, and another Tory leadership election.


if johnson cannot command the confidence of his chosen seat, where in four years he would have spaffed away a majority of more than 10,000, i see no reason for believing another constituency would welcome him with open arms


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

The anti-Semitism row is back in the news.



> The Archbishop of Canterbury has supported the Chief Rabbi over the anti-Semitism row, as he said British Jews feel a "deep sense of fear".
> 
> After the Chief Rabbi warned the soul of the nation would be at stake if Jeremy Corbyn were to win the General Election, Justin Welby said his intervention to make "such an unprecedented statement" ought to "alert us to the deep sense of insecurity and fear felt by many British Jews.
> 
> General election 2019:  Archbishop of Canterbury supports Chief Rabbi over anti-Semitism row, saying Jews feel 'deep sense of fear'   '- latest news


----------



## chilango (Nov 26, 2019)

The scenes if having lost his seat, he then failed to win a safe by-election...


----------



## Cid (Nov 26, 2019)

nogojones said:


> Well as you were able to find it, can you point out where the figure of 200% comes from and the context please?
> 
> The copy I've just checked seems to have that bit printed white on white



Under the homelessness bit of housing:



> We will bring in a new national levy on second homes used as holiday homes to help deal with the homelessness crisis, so that those who have done well from the housing market pay a bit more to help those with no home.



No figures I can see... though given the language I can see how it would be double council tax. But it sounds entirely reasonable. Most of their housing policy does.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

nogojones said:


> Well as you were able to find it, can you point out where the figure of 200% comes from and the context please?
> 
> The copy I've just checked seems to have that bit printed white on white





Cid said:


> Under the homelessness bit of housing:
> 
> No figures I can see... though given the language I can see how it would be double council tax. But it sounds entirely reasonable. Most of their housing policy does.



As well as being widely reported, it's in their funding document.



> Second homes tax
> 
> This is an annual levy on second homes that are used as holiday homes equivalent to 200% of the current council tax bill for the property. Based on the following sources and work from the House of Commons Library we estimate it could currently raise up to £560m a year:



Page 39 - https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Funding-Real-Change-1.pdf


----------



## strung out (Nov 26, 2019)

Interesting goings on in Uxbridge and South Ruislip, Lord Buckethead is standing, but has been forced to change his name to Count Binface after a copyright dispute. The Official Monster Raving Loony Party are also standing a candidate under the name of Lord Buckethead, although his identity is unclear.


----------



## andysays (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, the PM has to be in the Commons.


Lords can be in the cabinet, but not be PM.

The Tories have previously had an ex-lord as leader and PM, Douglas Home in the 50's. He resigned his peerage and was elected as an MP.


----------



## Cid (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> As well as being widely reported, it's in their funding document.
> 
> 
> 
> Page 39 - https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Funding-Real-Change-1.pdf



Either way it’s a perfectly reasonable policy.


----------



## strung out (Nov 26, 2019)

andysays said:


> Lords can be in the cabinet, but not be PM.
> 
> The Tories have previously had an ex-lord as leader and PM, Douglas Home in the 50's. He resigned his peerage and was elected as an MP.


Another piece of trivia: Winston Churchill was Prime Minister for 5 months without being leader of the Conservatives in 1940.


----------



## Spandex (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Labour have the biggest spending plans by a long shot.
> 
> View attachment 191044


Hang on... what happened to all those tens of billions of spending promises the Conservatives have made over the past few weeks? The ones that led to loads of 'whoever you vote for austerity is over' comment pieces? The Tories sneak their manifesto out on a Sunday afternoon and suddenly _pooof_  all those promises have dissapeared and we're back to 'oh noes, look how much Labour want to spend'. All they've committed to is ongoing austerity. £2.9 billion might sound a lot on it's own, but in the context of Government spending of £821 billion this year it's nothing. In fact the Labour spending is only an 11% increase, which hardly sounds mad when you consider this is after 10 years of cuts to spending.

And how has austerity worked out over the last decade? The ruin it's caused should be obvious to anyone, but it was supposed to be all about clearing the nation's 'unsustainable' debts. And how's that gone? In 2010 the UK national debt was £1011 billion. This year it's £1803 billion. So austerity has been an abject failure on it's own terms.

Fuck austerity and fuck the Conservatives and fuck that lying weasle Johnson.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

Spandex said:


> Hang on... what happened to all those tens of billions of spending promises the Conservatives have made over the past few week? The ones that led to loads of 'whoever you vote for austerity is over' comment pieces? The Tories sneak their manifesto out on a Sunday afternoon and suddenly _pooof_  all those promises have dissapeared and we're back to 'oh noes, look how much Labour want to spend'. All they've committed to is ongoing austerity. £2.9 billion might sound a lot on it's own, but in the context of Government spending of £821 billion this year it's nothing. In fact the Labour spending is only an 11% increase, which hardly sounds mad when you consider this is after 10 years of cuts to spending.
> 
> And how has austerity worked out over the last decade? The ruin it's caused should be obvious to anyone, but it was supposed to be all about clearing the nation's 'unsustainable' debts. And how's that gone? In 2010 the UK national debt was £1011 billion. This year it's £1803 billion. So austerity has been an abject failure on it's own terms.
> 
> Fuck austerity and fuck the Conservatives and fuck that lying weasle Johnson.


as i understand it the tories never intended to cut the national debt but some other more technical deficit which was never properly explained.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> as i understand it the tories never intended to cut the national debt but some other more technical deficit which was never properly explained.



Yep. it was the deficit, i.e. amount of borrowing per year, rather than the actual debt itself.

 

Down from around £150bn in year ending March 2010, to a forecast of £25bn year ending March 2019.


----------



## flypanam (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The anti-Semitism row is back in the news.



Unusul for Welby, he normally speaks up for the souls of oil industry executives. Getting to season that any slur will do.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yep. it was the deficit, i.e. amount of borrowing per year, rather than the actual debt itself.
> 
> View attachment 191072
> 
> Down from around £150bn in year ending March 2010, to a forecast of £25bn year ending March 2019.



What about off-balance sheet private finance shenanigans though?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What about off-balance sheet private finance shenanigans though?



Fuck knows how much is owed under PFI, but I remember reading they had reduced the number of new ones, and I am sure they have been abolished now.

ETA:



> Controversial PFI and PF2 contracts, under which private companies provide public services and infrastructure, are to be abolished in the wake of the collapse of construction firm Carillion.
> 
> Chancellor Philip Hammond said doing away with the public-private partnerships, which have been heavily criticised for failing to deliver value for money, showed the government was “putting another legacy of Labour behind us”.
> 
> The contracts were first introduced by John Major’s Conservative government in the 1990s but were significantly expanded under Tony Blair.



Hammond abolishes PFI contracts for new infrastructure projects

ETA 2 - 





> There are around 700 active PFI and PF2 deals, which the government estimates will cost the taxpayer £199bn by the 2040s.



£199bn.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What about off-balance sheet private finance shenanigans though?


Exactly this. It matters not just what the debt is, but to whom it is owed, what the average maturity length is, and what is owned by the state as a result of the debt - and so doesn't have to be rented from a private owner. On its own, the headline figure of national debt is meaningless.

Last I looked, the 'to whom is it owed' question wasn't so alarming (mostly to ourselves), the maturity date was pretty good (14 years), but the 'what is owned by the state as a result' question is a problem - not much, basically, about half of what is owned by the French state, for instance. That's a potential source of both cost and weakness, quite aside from the issue that it means of course that more is owned privately by rich people who make a profit from their ownership.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What about off-balance sheet private finance shenanigans though?



Andrew McGettigan's LRB piece from September (_Fiscal illusions) _is well worth the (longish) read if you can get around the £wall.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, the PM has to be in the Commons.





> Ultimately, this erosion of power led to the Parliament Act 1911, which marginalised the *Lords*' role in the legislative process and gave further weight to *the convention* that had developed over the previous century that a *prime minister* *cannot* *sit in the House of Lords*.
> 
> Prime Minister of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia


And we all know how much the current Tory party respects parliamentary convention...


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> And we all know how much the current Tory party respects parliamentary convention...


If blustercunt lost in U&SR he'd probably declare himself King.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 26, 2019)

I cringed so hard I broke a rib


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 26, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I cringed so hard I broke a rib




Jesus Christ.


----------



## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I cringed so hard I broke a rib



It's man dem not dem man innit or am I as out of touch as Pob?


----------



## binka (Nov 26, 2019)

strung out said:


> If the Tories have some kind of working majority, I'd expect a sitting Tory MP in a safe seat to step aside for Boris in a by-election. Anything else and it should mean Boris resigning, and another Tory leadership election.


I reckon there's no chance of that happening, a lot of Tory MPs hate him and if he delivered a majority but lost his own seat he'll have served his purpose and they'd get rid


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 26, 2019)

maomao said:


> It's man dem not dem man innit or am I as out of touch as Pob?


I think I'm more out of touch than either of you as I have no idea what man dem (or dem man) means.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think I'm more out of touch than either of you as I have no idea what man dem (or dem man) means.


Nick Clegg rather than Jo Swinson


----------



## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think I'm more out of touch than either of you as I have no idea what man dem (or dem man) means.


Man + them = a plural of man ie. men. From a carribean creole but often heard in teenage Londoners' speech.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

binka said:


> I reckon there's no chance of that happening, a lot of Tory MPs hate him and if he delivered a majority but lost his own seat he'll have served his purpose and they'd get rid


i think one of them would respond to the offer of a peerage and surrender a seat. but i'd love it if that happened and johnson lost the fucking by-election


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 26, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, the PM has to be in the Commons.


"further weight to the *convention* that had developed over the previous century that a prime minister cannot sit in the House of Lords." (my emphasis)
Convention not requirement

Not that it really matters, practically no party would go for a PM in the Lords


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> "further weight to the *convention* that had developed over the previous century that a prime minister cannot sit in the House of Lords." (my emphasis)
> Convention not requirement


yeh the nineteenth century is replete with peers becoming pm


----------



## chilango (Nov 26, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> "further weight to the *convention* that had developed over the previous century that a prime minister cannot sit in the House of Lords." (my emphasis)
> Convention not requirement
> 
> Not that it really matters, practically no party would go for a PM in the Lords



Never underestimate what Johnson might think he can get away with.


----------



## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

We'd end up with Gove ffs.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 26, 2019)

strung out said:


> Interesting goings on in Uxbridge and South Ruislip, Lord Buckethead is standing, but has been forced to change his name to Count Binface after a copyright dispute. The Official Monster Raving Loony Party are also standing a candidate under the name of Lord Buckethead, although his identity is unclear.



It must be a worry that with Buckethead, Binface and Johnson standing that the Loony vote may be split.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think one of them would respond to the offer of a peerage and surrender a seat. but i'd love it if that happened and johnson lost the fucking by-election



Would be the biggest lol of all election time.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 26, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> "further weight to the *convention* that had developed over the previous century that a prime minister cannot sit in the House of Lords." (my emphasis)
> Convention not requirement
> 
> Not that it really matters, practically no party would go for a PM in the Lords



Yes it's a convention, but because the Parliament Act 1911 so limited the powers of the Lords, it would be impractical for the PM to sit in that house.

But, as you say, it would never happen anyway.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 26, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Just back from the pub?
> Between buy to let and estate agents, the pair are mostly responsible for the mess. The Thatcher government started the ball rolling, but that set of bastards are kicking it.



How do estate agents set prices when they control neither the capital available for the purchase of homes or the supply of those homes? If what you mean is that estate agents working on commision will seek the highest prices they can (in a market set by others) then you're right; but that is something very different. The actions of estate agents do not explain the differences in house prices over the last four decades or their current geographical diversity. 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> How do estate agents set prices when they control neither the capital available for the purchase of homes or the supply of those homes? If what you mean is that estate agents working on commision will seek the highest prices they can (in a market set by others) then you're right; but that is something very different. The actions of estate agents do not explain the differences in house prices over the last four decades or their current geographical diversity.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


it's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## weltweit (Nov 26, 2019)

Estate agents are motivated to get the highest price possible for both house prices and rents.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 26, 2019)

8ball said:


> Anyone had a polling card yet?



I hope so as I've delivered hundreds of the things.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Santino (Nov 26, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Estate agents are motivated to get the highest price possible for both house prices and rents.


Actually the pricing structure of most estate agents' fees means they are motivated to get a deal done as soon as possible and move onto another job.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 26, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Estate agents are motivated to get the highest price possible for both house prices and rents.


You could argue that completions are a greater driver than best price ,given that their return is based on a small % of sometimes of a very large number - a few grand either way on a London house will make little difference to their return , whilst hanging on to extract that little bit extra for the punter is a cost they would prefer not to have to deal with.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 26, 2019)

Santino said:


> Actually the pricing structure of most estate agents' fees means they are motivated to get a deal done as soon as possible and move onto another job.


  Fuck , just posted the same ish


----------



## kebabking (Nov 26, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Estate agents are motivated to get the highest price possible for both house prices and rents.



no, estate agents - those who work on a percentage basis, are motivated to get the _best offer_ accepted by the owner, the sale proceeded with, and the commission paid as soon as possible. the best offer isn't neccesarily the highest price, not least because the person offering a high (relative) price might subsequently decide to pull out because they've paid too much. a house priced so high that it does get any offers and never gets sold doesn't pay the EA anything, but its costs them money to market it and reputational damage by not selling it.

Estage Agents who work on a fixed fee basis couldn't care less what price it goes for, in fact a lower price suits them because it will sell quicker, so they get paid quicker.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 26, 2019)

that gove tweet is absolutely sensational


----------



## mauvais (Nov 26, 2019)

kebabking said:


> no, estate agents - those who work on a percentage basis, are motivated to get the _best offer_ accepted by the owner, the sale proceeded with, and the commission paid as soon as possible. the best offer isn't neccesarily the highest price, not least because the person offering a high (relative) price might subsequently decide to pull out because they've paid too much. a house priced so high that it does get any offers and never gets sold doesn't pay the EA anything, but its costs them money to market it and reputational damage by not selling it.
> 
> Estage Agents who work on a fixed fee basis couldn't care less what price it goes for, in fact a lower price suits them because it will sell quicker, so they get paid quicker.


Yes, but within those fundamentals they are also motivated to talk up areas and raise prices - hence modern strategies like 'sealed bids' which artificially inflate prices.


----------



## strung out (Nov 26, 2019)

maomao said:


> It's man dem not dem man innit or am I as out of touch as Pob?


Gove is quoting a lyric from Stormzy's popular hit track, Shut Up. Unfortunately, he's quoting the track correctly, which doesn't make it much less cringey...


----------



## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

strung out said:


> Gove is quoting a lyric from Stormzy's popular hit track, Shut Up. Unfortunately, he's quoting the track correctly, which doesn't make it much less cringey...


Tbf he probably got an intern to look it up.


----------



## chilango (Nov 26, 2019)

Do any of these politicians actually tweet themselves?


----------



## pesh (Nov 26, 2019)




----------



## D'wards (Nov 26, 2019)

The BBC confirming what is already obvious - the Labour Party is no longer the party for the working classes. 

(And I believe this abandoning of the working class concerns is why they have lost the last three elections and will lose this one)

General election 2019: Do people still vote according to class?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

D'wards said:


> The BBC confirming what is already obvious - the Labour Party is no longer the party for the working classes.
> 
> (And I believe this abandoning of the working class concerns is why they have lost the last three elections and will lose this one)
> 
> General election 2019: Do people still vote according to class?


One of the greatest con tricks in British politics has been the Labour party's largely successful claim to be the party for the working class


----------



## treelover (Nov 26, 2019)

> On the doorstep, Labour faces the question: who do you speak for?
> 
> 
> Tilley and Evans show that the working-class electorate across the UK has since been staying at home in ever-larger numbers. Corbyn has not reversed the trend: in 2017, 83% of professionals voted compared with only 52% from working-class jobs.
> ...



Another incisive article by Aditya Chakrabortty,  Wilf has been noting this on here, along with others, Labour has to become a movement, embedded in communities, outside parts of cities, I don't think that is happening


----------



## treelover (Nov 26, 2019)

> The difference in emphasis is striking given how many working-age households are being driven to the wall by the Tories’ cuts to welfare. In North East Derbyshire I meet a couple who last year endured so many errors on their disability benefits and suffered such hardship that the wife contemplated killing herself.
> 
> Privately, Labour people admit the issue. Enthusiasts know Corbyn’s longstanding policies on increasing wages and trade union rights; casual viewers will spot only free broadband and the four-day week.



Corbyn, not John MC, is on record as saying it would be a difficult process to change embedded views on welfare, he didn't say that about another contested issue, immigration.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 26, 2019)

D'wards said:


> The BBC confirming what is already obvious - the Labour Party is no longer the party for the working classes.
> 
> (And I believe this abandoning of the working class concerns is why they have lost the last three elections and will lose this one)
> 
> General election 2019: Do people still vote according to class?


While I some sympathy for the underlying argument I think we need to be very clear that stories like this are talking about C2DE, the census definition of "working class". Is that a definition of class that we want to use?


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 26, 2019)

Nice bit of full on “the well known anti-Semite Jeremy Corbyn” there synchronised on Radio 4 and 5 for a few minutes.

Is the Brexit Election not sticking or something?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Nice bit of full on “the well known anti-Semite Jeremy Corbyn” there synchronised on Radio 4 and 5 for a few minutes.
> 
> Is the Brexit Election not sticking or something?


Poll convergence plan 1


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> One of the greatest con tricks in British politics has been the Labour party's largely successful claim to be the party for the working class



Also workers Vs non-workers. The systemic  attack on those who don't work for various reasons has created a schism amongst society. It's been a very successful tactic in my eyes and allowed them to get away with most of the things that they have.


----------



## toblerone3 (Nov 26, 2019)

Is it anti-semitic to be disgusted with the Chief Rabbi's statements on Anti Semitism in the Labour Party today?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Is it anti-semitic to be disgusted with the Chief Rabbi's statements on Anti Semitism in the Labour Party today?


No


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Is it anti-semitic to be disgusted with the Chief Rabbi's statements on Anti Semitism in the Labour Party today?


It depends on why you’re disgusted. If you’re disgusted that he’s using antisemitism to play politics, then no. If you’re disgusted because it’s another Jew in the news, then yes.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 26, 2019)

Did he have anything to say when the tories were getting all _North London Intellectual _about Milliband back in 2015?


----------



## toblerone3 (Nov 26, 2019)

I'm disgusted because its incredibly partisan and he's using Anti-Semitism to play politics and also because the atmosphere today is enough to silence many people on this issue for fear of being accused of being anti-semitic.


----------



## maomao (Nov 26, 2019)

Hang him from the same fucking lamppost as Welby to quash accusations of antisemitism.


----------



## binka (Nov 26, 2019)

Anyone watch the Neil Corbyn interview? I expected it to go a lot worse than it did


----------



## treelover (Nov 26, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Did he have anything to say when the tories were getting all _North London Intellectual _about Milliband back in 2015?



can posters recall outrage at the time, certainly not on this scale.


----------



## treelover (Nov 26, 2019)

> On one Saturday alone, Shaheen helmed an army of 700 volunteers to help oust the ex-Tory leader. Yet just half-an-hour’s drive away lies the marginal of Enfield Southgate, which Labour is fighting to hold with only handfuls of doorknockers. It is an example of what one former Labour adviser warns is “an epic misallocation of resources”.



This is very revealing, 700 canvassers!


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

treelover said:


> This is very revealing, 700 canvassers!


I think all it reveals is that there's a lot of safe Labour seats nearby full of activists who are really keen on giving johnson a bloody nose


----------



## chilango (Nov 26, 2019)

Also "half an hour's drive" might become something a lot less manageable by public transport.


----------



## treelover (Nov 26, 2019)

So, why not Enfield, where it says only a handful of canvassers, the Owen Jones show?


----------



## chilango (Nov 26, 2019)

I don't know what point you're making tbh.


----------



## belboid (Nov 26, 2019)

treelover said:


> So, why not Enfield, where it says only a handful of canvassers, the Owen Jones show?


where one bloke says there are 'only a handful' - given the numbers out in even the safest seats, I doubt that is entirely true - except by comparison with somewhere with such a well known MP as Chingford has.  And, given how Enfield Southgate had a smaller lave vote than London's average, it isn't such a high target as the figures might suggest for the tories. 

Happens every time tho, in 2015 everyone round here was going to Hallam to try to get rid of Clegg, not turning out to places where MP's were at risk like Morley or, uhh, Derby North.


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

treelover said:


> So, why not Enfield, where it says only a handful of canvassers, the Owen Jones show?


It's just people turning up off their own bat, after using the momentum campaign map thing, or just googling a campaign they've heard about. They go to whichever is the most high profile or convenient seat within half an hour or so of their homes - and there isn't a more high profile seat than Boris Johnson's.

The campaign map tool has been an unprecedented success, but its success has meant the rock star seats get many more people than they could feasibly use - they need to find some way of directing campaigners more efficiently IMO - but if people are just turning up without being part of an organised group, it's not always going to be possible to do that...


----------



## kebabking (Nov 26, 2019)

binka said:


> Anyone watch the Neil Corbyn interview? I expected it to go a lot worse than it did



Allegedly, this - from twitter - is from an LP media team member...

 
 

It came via Tom Newton-Dunn.

The terms 'car crash', and 'has he been taking lessons from Prince Andrew?' seem to be the main reactions I've seen on twitter...


----------



## binka (Nov 26, 2019)

kebabking said:


> 'has he been taking lessons from Prince Andrew?' seem to be the main reactions I've seen on twitter...


It wasn't that bad!


----------



## agricola (Nov 26, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Allegedly, this - from twitter - is from an LP media team member...
> 
> View attachment 191135
> View attachment 191136
> ...



That doesn't ring true - the worst moment Corbyn had IMHO was the WASPI one (edit: as the first bit said), so for someone to bang on about that rather than AS is a bit odd.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's just people turning up off their own bat, after using the momentum campaign map thing, or just googling a campaign they've heard about. They go to whichever is the most high profile or convenient seat within half an hour or so of their homes - and there isn't a more high profile seat than Boris Johnson's.
> 
> The campaign map tool has been an unprecedented success, but its success has meant the rock star seats get many more people than they could feasibly use - they need to find some way of directing campaigners more efficiently IMO - but if people are just turning up without being part of an organised group, it's not always going to be possible to do that...


The former Tory leader referred to in treelovers post is IDS I think


----------



## Plumdaff (Nov 26, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Allegedly, this - from twitter - is from an LP media team member...
> 
> View attachment 191135
> View attachment 191136
> ...



Hasn't that been debunked? Odd that the person who sent it wrote it all themselves, don't you think? 

I think it was an Andrew Neil interview, trap questions, not being allowed to answer etc. Corbyn had as torrid a time as Sturgeon. Don't think anyone will have had their mind changed.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 26, 2019)

Andrew Neil cost his newspaper a third of a million pounds when he libelled Carmen Proetta.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 26, 2019)

Not sure how much more of Corbyn's racism I can handle


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> The former Tory leader referred to in treelovers post is IDS I think


Oh yeah - same thing though: I know the names of the Labour Candidates for Chingford and Uxbridge without having to check because they've both had very active campaigns with a lot of (sometimes national) media coverage since last year - Shaheen is on the telly as a Labour commentator semi-regularly too. So for any not-totally-engaged Labour activist in north London who decides to go out campaigning this weekend, those will be the campaigns they already know about, and both with high profile absolute vermin tories that they'd dearly love to see lose...


----------



## belboid (Nov 26, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Not sure how much more of Corbyn's racism I can handle



"We find it nauseating that no Labour Member of Parliament has condemned the anti-Jewish and now what we witness as anti-Hindu manoeuvrings at play in the Party."

No Labour Mp? Really?  I think the man is talking balls. 

And is a Hindu chauvinist.


----------



## GarveyLives (Nov 26, 2019)

Beyond Brexit and Craft Beer culture (if only for a day or two):

Black and Asian people can change this election: it’s urgent that we register now

Chief Rabbi launches unprecedented attack on 'mendacious' Jeremy Corbyn over Jew hate

The Muslim Council of Britain accuses Conservative party of “approaching Islamophobia with denial, dismissal and deceit”


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Not sure how much more of Corbyn's racism I can handle



I wait to see what if anything the oto say


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> Oh yeah - same thing though: I know the names of the Labour Candidates for Chingford and Uxbridge without having to check because they've both had very active campaigns with a lot of (sometimes national) media coverage since last year - Shaheen is on the telly as a Labour commentator semi-regularly too. So for any not-totally-engaged Labour activist in north London who decides to go out campaigning this weekend, those will be the campaigns they already know about, and both with high profile absolute vermin tories that they'd dearly love to see lose...



Referring a group of people as ‘vermin’, hmmm I wonder who has historically done that before?

Fks sake.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 26, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Not sure how much more of Corbyn's racism I can handle


I know hindu council has long existed but is its takeover by BJP/hindu nationalists a recent thing or has it always been like that


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Referring a group of people as ‘vermin’, hmmm I wonder who has historically done that before?
> 
> Fks sake.


Nye Bevan


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 26, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I know hindu council has long existed but is its takeover by BJP/hindu nationalists a recent thing or has it always been like that


Not sure on the make up of the council, but Labour passed a resolution at conference condemning India's actions in Kashmir, which is probably what this is about.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 26, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Not sure on the make up of the council, but Labour passed a resolution at conference condemning India's actions in Kashmir, which is probably what this is about.


Yeah. Been some recent articles about whatsapp campaigns targeting british hindus to not vote labour on back of that too. First time I've clocked hindu council's involvement though


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 26, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah. Been some recent articles about whatsapp campaigns targeting british hindus to not vote labour on back of that too. First time I've clocked hindu council's involvement though


I think its just opportunism, what with all the ethno-religious bollocks happening today.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 26, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Hasn't that been debunked? Odd that the person who sent it wrote it all themselves, don't you think?



The 'don't mention brexit at all' bit seems particuarly suspicious.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 26, 2019)

Wow, the bot activity on this is phenomenal. George2349233 registered October 2019 definitely won't vote Labour now due to a nothing interview. None of them actually say _why_ of course, it's just to boost "andrew neil corbyn interview car crash".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 26, 2019)

I'm sure some pundits will be along soon to back-formulate this in an evidence-based way to satisfy the centrists.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Referring a group of people as ‘vermin’, hmmm I wonder who has historically done that before?
> 
> Fks sake.


Tories.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I wait to see what if anything the oto say



the Typhonians will be contacting the rabbi via a praeter-human intelligence to express their opinions.


----------



## magneze (Nov 26, 2019)

Watching the Andrew Neil interview now. Its fine. Neil comes across badly in the last 10 minutes on WASPI and ISIS, not listening, repeating questions which have been answered. Corbyn did well considering. It's only a "hard" interview because the interviewer isn't listening.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Referring a group of people as ‘vermin’, hmmm I wonder who has historically done that before?



Not Nye Bevan. He said the Tory party were lower than vermin. He was right and he'll always be right.

It comes from a deep, burning hatred. He said that too.


----------



## binka (Nov 26, 2019)

magneze said:


> Watching the Andrew Neil interview now. Its fine. Neil comes across badly in the last 10 minutes on WASPI and ISIS, not listening repeating questions which have been answered. Corbyn did well considering. It's only a "hard" interview because the interviewer isn't listening.


I thought Corbyn came across reasonably well remaining calm and trying to explain his position while Neil kept interrupting and talking over him


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 26, 2019)

Where is it now, the glory and the dream?


----------



## magneze (Nov 26, 2019)

binka said:


> I thought Corbyn came across reasonably well remaining calm and trying to explain his position while Neil kept interrupting and talking over him


I agree. Overall it made Neil look bad.


----------



## treelover (Nov 26, 2019)

Going to be the story tomorrow, all the papers, including the DM, perhaps ask them about Ed's dad, maybe he should have apologised, the culture wars will now get more intense.


----------



## magneze (Nov 26, 2019)

treelover said:


> Going to be the story tomorrow, all the papers, including the DM, perhaps ask them about Ed's dad, maybe he should have apologised, the culture wars will now get more intense.


What is?


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

There's no way in which every day between now and the 12th of December isn't going to see the right-wing press savaging Corbyn, multiple times. It barely seems worth remarking on tbh.


----------



## binka (Nov 26, 2019)

treelover said:


> Going to be the story tomorrow, all the papers, including the DM, perhaps ask them about Ed's dad, maybe he should have apologised, the culture wars will now get more intense.


He should have apologised for how AS was being dealt with by the party but he was entitled to challenge the chief rabbis views and did it quite well I thought


----------



## Ted Striker (Nov 26, 2019)

JC just 'Boris'd the questions (slightly denying him the moral high ground as "the guy who doesn't do that") and didn't do the disingenuous pally smile at the end. He looked rattled. It wasn't a good look tbf.

No ones changing their minds on it.

As an aside, BBC coverage of it all (and Labour in general) is an abomination.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

‘Schrodingers Brexit’ - an interesting perspective from an American political commentator.

More of a ramble but that’s his style.



Spoiler


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 26, 2019)

video by


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> video by
> 
> View attachment 191142


exciting, his wiki entry has a section on 'holocaust revision'


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 26, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Where is it now, the glory and the dream?
> 
> View attachment 191140


Lol, I was just about to come and ask whether anyone had a picture of a famous interviewer getting up close and personal with a younger and more exciting partner...


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 If wondering whether this is a far right vlogger, why bother researching? Just look at his logo.


But when you do research, you find he’s a Holocaust denier, a literal racist, and a thoroughly unpleasant far right piece of crap. Why do you keep using these people as a source?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 26, 2019)

Because he's a thoroughly unpleasant far right piece of crap.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 191146
> 
> Marty1 If wondering whether this is a far right vlogger, why bother researching? Just look at his logo.
> 
> ...



Thought he was an occultist, I’ve never heard him talk about the Holocaust or be racist.  His YT channel is political commentary with occasional videos on his garden.


----------



## xenon (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Referring a group of people as ‘vermin’, hmmm I wonder who has historically done that before?
> 
> Fks sake.



Toriesare filth


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 26, 2019)

Just watched the Andrew Neill interview, and thought it was a shocker, tbh. Yeah, Neill was a dick, but that's what he's meant to do. Corbyn didn't look good. Would be almost impossible to look 'good', but he didn't handle it well.

Tories are re-broadcasting it on their 'FB live' page.

Won't mean much anyway, but to say he came across OK is not reality.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Thought he was an occultist, I’ve never heard him talk about the Holocaust or be racist.  His YT channel is political commentary with occasional videos on his garden.


If that was true, it would frighten me that you’re roaming about the internet on your own.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 26, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Not sure how much more of Corbyn's racism I can handle



When the Westboro Baptists accuse him, we'll have reached peak Corbyn racism.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 26, 2019)

Wilf said:


> When the Westboro Baptists accuse him, we'll have reached peak Corbyn racism.


Does he still have a Spanish wife? There's still an anti-Iberian claim that's yet to materialise from close quarters


----------



## gosub (Nov 26, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> JC just 'Boris'd the questions (slightly denying him the moral high ground as "the guy who doesn't do that") and didn't do the disingenuous pally smile at the end. He looked rattled. It wasn't a good look tbf.
> 
> No ones changing their minds on it.
> 
> As an aside, BBC coverage of it all (and Labour in general) is an abomination.




Its all just methadone for the political junkies. It will be the NATO summit and reactions to it that crystallises the narrative(s) of the election.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Thought he was an occultist, I’ve never heard him talk about the Holocaust or be racist.  His YT channel is political commentary with occasional videos on his garden.



That's such obvious bullshit. Your political positions all cohere with the far right. Your sources are all far right (some of them right off the scale like this one - you don't stumble across that shit unless you're already wading up to the waist in it) and you've a fondness for far right conspiracy theorists like Icke. 

Stop being a fucking coward and be honest for once you sad little man.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> If that was true, it would frighten me that you’re roaming about the internet on your own.



Not really, if something is on YouTube then I give it no thought as they (YT) are pretty strict on racism, Holocaust deniers etc.

As you’re no doubt aware YT is part of Google who are pretty left wing.


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

can we lose this joker yet.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Not really, if something is on YouTube then I give it no thought as they (YT) are pretty strict on racism, Holocaust deniers etc.
> 
> As you’re no doubt aware YT is part of Google who are pretty left wing.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> That's such obvious bullshit. Your political positions all cohere with the far right. Your sources are all far right (some of them right off the scale like this one - you don't stumble across that shit unless you're already wading up to the waist in it) and you've a fondness for far right conspiracy theorists like Icke.
> 
> Stop being a fucking coward and be honest for once you sad little man.




Lol, I also watch Bill Maher’s Real Time show and political commentator Tim Pool on YT, but I really don’t need to offset that with crackpots like you.

My last post on this.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> There's no way in which every day between now and the 12th of December isn't going to see the right-wing press savaging Corbyn, multiple times. It barely seems worth remarking on tbh.



so pretty much the same since he was nominated as party leader


----------



## JimW (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Thought he was an occultist, I’ve never heard him talk about the Holocaust or be racist.  His YT channel is political commentary with occasional videos on his garden.


At least we know now why you're familiar with issues of anti-Semitic language


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Thought he was an occultist, I’ve never heard him talk about the Holocaust or be racist.  His YT channel is political commentary with occasional videos on his garden.



if you gonna link some in here a quick google before the link will be helpful

HTH


----------



## killer b (Nov 26, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> if you gonna link some in here a quick google before the link will be helpful
> 
> HTH


he knows what he is.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Lol, I also watch Bill Maher’s Real Time show and political commentator Tim Pool on YT, but I really don’t need to offset that with crackpots like you.
> 
> My last post on this.


That's far right fake journalist Tim pool for anyone wondering.

Tim Pool. Investigative journalism in Sweden after Trump allegations on immigration problems


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2019)

killer b said:


> he knows what he is.



I've been lurking lately so aye i agree with you


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Nov 26, 2019)

Day off booked for the 13th before the election was announced, so for once I don't have to worry about a ten hour shift minus sleep


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Not really, if something is on YouTube then I give it no thought as they (YT) are pretty strict on racism, Holocaust deniers etc.
> 
> As you’re no doubt aware YT is part of Google who are pretty left wing.


Nobody’s that clueless.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Not really, if something is on YouTube then I give it no thought as they (YT) are pretty strict on racism, Holocaust deniers etc.
> 
> As you’re no doubt aware YT is part of Google who are pretty left wing.


Lol


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2019)

aye no racists ever have a ever found a platform on youtube

it like  left wing paradise on youtube


----------



## gosub (Nov 26, 2019)

Interesting choices as to why Google isn't left wing - I'd probably have gone with taxes paid myself


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 26, 2019)

Socially liberal (very debatable) = left wing to lots of headbangers. Old fashioned stuff like workers rights or performing a social good don't really come into it.


----------



## Serge Forward (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Thought he was an occultist, I’ve never heard him talk about the Holocaust or be racist.  His YT channel is political commentary with occasional videos on his garden.


You fucking moron. Is it not time this cunt was binned off?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 26, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Socially liberal (very debatable) = left wing to lots of headbangers. Old fashioned stuff like workers rights or performing a social good don't really come into it.



Google is only socially liberal to make money.

And only at pre-approved events or days like Pride week.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2019)

gosub said:


> Interesting choices as to why Google isn't left wing - I'd probably have gone with taxes paid myself



quiet you 

fair point as well


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 26, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Google is only socially liberal to make money.
> 
> And only at pre-approved events or days like Pride week.


Well aye. All the big professional services/accountancy firms, the banks, the intelligence services, they all do this stuff now. Make your logo rainbow flag during pride week, whack a poppy on in November, make sure the models used on your websites and in literature are ethnically diverse, remember to do a few social media posts on international womens day and don't forget to wish everybody a happy diwali. Like they give a fuck really, but doing a chick a fil isn't good reputationaly. But anyway, it has fuck all to do with being 'left wing'


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty by name, Marty by nature


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 26, 2019)

Now this, is very positive:



> Labour also vowed to end in-work poverty, with plans to give a £10-an-hour minimum wage for all, ban zero-hours contracts and give every worker full rights from their first day in a job.





Corbyn calls out 'tax and wage cheat culture' outside Amazon depot | Metro News


----------



## gosub (Nov 26, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Google is only socially liberal to make money.
> 
> And only at pre-approved events or days like Pride week.


It has impacted on the world  and some of the change has been positive internet back in the yahoo days.. Mapping translation big impact the groundwork on autonomous vehicles, even scanning all the classic books, star maps.. There is some good stuff to pout to, they ain't brilliant but there is some good stuff


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 26, 2019)

gosub said:


> It has impacted on the world  and some of the change has been positive internet back in the yahoo days.. Mapping translation big impact the groundwork on autonomous vehicles, even scanning all the classic books, star maps.. There is some good stuff to pout to, they ain't brilliant but there is some good stuff


Er, remind you of anything else? Good mapping, translating the bible, building roads and railways, mass education - but some serious exploitation along with that. (Not suggesting they ever actually killed anyone though, let alone millions.)


----------



## editor (Nov 26, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> ‘Schrodingers Brexit’ - an interesting perspective from an American political commentator.
> 
> More of a ramble but that’s his style.
> 
> ...



NO MORE dodgy videos. Official warning.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Just watched the Andrew Neill interview, and thought it was a shocker, tbh. Yeah, Neill was a dick, but that's what he's meant to do. Corbyn didn't look good. Would be almost impossible to look 'good', but he didn't handle it well.
> 
> Tories are re-broadcasting it on their 'FB live' page.
> 
> Won't mean much anyway, but to say he came across OK is not reality.



I thought Corbyn was poor. His lack of grasp of the detail was really evident on the WASPI issue (which should be a vote winning pledge). He was also flaky on the top rate tax payer issue not knowing the figures (and more importantly how they relate to equivalent rates in other countries). He was also sloppy on the tax challenge. 

The AS handling never looks good but people know about it by now and have decided their position on it. But on the domestic and economic agenda he - or more accurately his team - should have armed him with rebuttal points. Let’s put it this way, McDonnell would have devoured some of those attacks


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 26, 2019)

This piece is a really good in-depth look at the collapse of Google's liberal pretensions over the last few years, fwiw.

Three Years of Misery Inside Google, the Happiest Company in Tech


----------



## Azrael (Nov 26, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I thought Corbyn was poor. His lack of grasp of the detail was really evident on the WASPI issue (which should be a vote winning pledge). He was also flaky on the top rate tax payer issue not knowing the figures (and more importantly how they relate to equivalent rates in other countries). He was also sloppy on the tax challenge.
> 
> The AS handling never looks good but people know about it by now and have decided their position on it. But on the domestic and economic agenda he - or more accurately his team - should have armed him with rebuttal points. Let’s put it this way, McDonnell would have devoured some of those attacks


On the upside, no-one looks good after _Private Eye_'s fave pinup's done with them, not even Sturgeon the other day. Al Johnson's bumbling Boris character's floundered with Neil before, and will again.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 26, 2019)

Just seen an ad encouraging people to register to vote with 14 minutes left...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 26, 2019)

Azrael said:


> On the upside, no-one looks good after _Private Eye_'s fave pinup's done with them, not even Sturgeon the other day. Al Johnson's bumbling Boris character's floundered with Neil before, and will again.



I’m not sure these interviews have much bearing on the overall result. I’m not sure if many people even watch them. But, even so I’d expect a ‘socialist to have dealt with the risible attack on Labour’s mild tax on the rich plans much better than corbyn managed. He could have even made a political point (wow). Similarly, the WASPI funding issue is easy to explain, except he didn’t. He really is piss poor Corbyn


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 26, 2019)

wait for the sun and the mail to start  a campaign to vote


----------



## Azrael (Nov 26, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I’m not sure these interviews have much bearing on the overall result. I’m not sure if many people even watch them. But, even so I’d expect a ‘socialist to have dealt with the risible attack on Labour’s mild tax on the rich plans much better than corbyn managed. He could have even made a political point (wow). Similarly, the WASPI funding issue is easy to explain, except he didn’t. He really is piss poor Corbyn


John McDonnell's the detail man, but it was Corbyn's turn in 2015, so we are where we are. Johnson will screw up epically on his "get Brexit done!" lynchpin, and unlike Labour, after the slop-pot of thin gruel impersonating a manifesto, the Tories have nothing else to fall back on.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Azrael said:


> John McDonnell's the detail man, but it was Corbyn's turn in 2015, so we are where we are. Johnson will screw up epically on his "get Brexit done!" lynchpin, and unlike Labour, after the slop-pot of thin gruel impersonating a manifesto, the Tories have nothing else to fall back on.



Swinson is the one I’m looking forward to. The car crash on BBC QT was highly entertaining. I suspect that this will be even better. She’s disappearing as fast as their vote.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

Fun as it is watching Violet Elizabeth Bott getting schooled by political reality, just hope it doesn't depress the Lib Dem vote in Tory seats essential to denying Vote Leave 2.0 a majority.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Fun as it is watching Violet Elizabeth Bott getting schooled by political reality, just hope it doesn't depress the Lib Dem vote in Tory seats essential to denying Vote Leave 2.0 a majority.



The Lib Dem vote is gone. There might be some specific local results that buck the trend but the trend has been apparent for weeks


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

I reckon the WASPI offer will sway a considerbale number of voters, not least the 60 something women themselves.


----------



## Anju (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Let’s put it this way, McDonnell would have devoured some of those attacks



McDonnell always comes across well. My mum falls for the Corbyn is a dangerous Marxist stuff, knows McDonnell has similar views but says she thinks he would be a good PM. 

I thought the guy on the question time party leaders thing who explained Corbyn's position on Brexit so well was a good example of how poor Corbyn and Labour have been at getting their messages across. I even see posts on here sometimes and find myself thinking why aren't the actual politicians able to express themselves like this, clearly and with the necessary context to at least make people stop and think.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

Nationally it was never there, but given that there's been some spectacular swings in recent council elections, swings mirrored in some constituency polling (not their own bar charts of shame), those local results could prove crucial.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Anju said:


> McDonnell always comes across well. My mum falls for the Corbyn is a dangerous Marxist stuff, knows McDonnell has similar views but says she thinks he would be a good PM.
> 
> I thought the guy on the question time party leaders thing who explained Corbyn's position on Brexit so well was a good example of how poor Corbyn and Labour have been at getting their messages across. I even see posts on here sometimes and find myself thinking why aren't the actual politicians able to express themselves like this, clearly and with the necessary context to at least make people stop and think.



Ironically, given their absurd position, I thought he did okay on Brexit. Although, his inability to answer who would campaign for his ‘deal’ was clunky. 

But yes, you think he’d have some killer - easy to understand -lines on tax, borrowing and investment lined up given he has been campaigning on them for weeks


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

Anju said:


> McDonnell always comes across well. My mum falls for the Corbyn is a dangerous Marxist stuff, knows McDonnell has similar views but says she thinks he would be a good PM.
> 
> I thought the guy on the question time party leaders thing who explained Corbyn's position on Brexit so well was a good example of how poor Corbyn and Labour have been at getting their messages across. I even see posts on here sometimes and find myself thinking why aren't the actual politicians able to express themselves like this, clearly and with the necessary context to at least make people stop and think.


Corbyn's a campaigning backbencher who's flakey on detail, but isn't _that_ bad, and he knows how to whip up a crowd. If he were leader, McDonnell would also be getting a deluge of slime, and has plenty skeletons of his own to disinter (the press would likely be focusing on "the struggle" far more). And his competence could be turned against him, presenting him as a ruthless politburo man. Mocked as it is, the Magic Grandpa meme does help soften the edges.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Corbyn's a campaigning backbencher who's flakey on detail, but isn't _that_ bad, and he knows how to whip up a crowd. If he were leader, McDonnell would also be getting a deluge of slime, and has plenty skeletons of his own to disinter (the press would likely be focusing on "the struggle" far more). And his competence could be turned against him, presenting him as a ruthless politburo man. Mocked as it is, the Magic Grandpa meme does help soften the edges.



people call corbyn many things. Magic Grandpa is not one of the descriptions I commonly hear


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

I’d be worried if anyone used a meme in earnest. His opponents do, however, endlessly allege that his perceived niceness is a fraud, so they obviously view it as a threat.


----------



## rutabowa (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> people call corbyn many things. Magic Grandpa is not one of the descriptions I commonly hear


really? its def up there with the most frequent piss-take names ive seen used.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 27, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Not really, if something is on YouTube then I give it no thought as they (YT) are pretty strict on racism, Holocaust deniers etc.
> 
> As you’re no doubt aware YT is part of Google who are pretty left wing.


Just fuck off


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 27, 2019)

gosub said:


> It has impacted on the world  and some of the change has been positive internet back in the yahoo days.. Mapping translation big impact the groundwork on autonomous vehicles, even scanning all the classic books, star maps.. There is some good stuff to pout to, they ain't brilliant but there is some good stuff



Doesn't make em left wing though.



Azrael said:


> Fun as it is watching Violet Elizabeth Bott getting schooled by political reality, just hope it doesn't depress the Lib Dem vote in Tory seats essential to denying Vote Leave 2.0 a majority.



Interviews are amusing for a minute but feel it's rather sad that "cutting, deep interview" is just a fat fuck ranting at someone in a chair for 5 minutes solid.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 27, 2019)

BBC have an interactive policy guide that lets you compare each parties pledges on a variety of key issues.

Who should I vote for? Election policy guide


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2019)

.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 27, 2019)

660k registered to vote yesterday, before the midnight deadline. (460k <35 years)


----------



## mauvais (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Ironically, given their absurd position, I thought he did okay on Brexit. Although, his inability to answer who would campaign for his ‘deal’ was clunky.
> 
> But yes, you think he’d have some killer - easy to understand -lines on tax, borrowing and investment lined up given he has been campaigning on them for weeks


I thought this about the Sheffield QT Scottish independence bit. Why not just simple as: you've been suffering a decade of Tory austerity, we can do better, give us a chance to show you and then you can choose? Rather than a complicated technical explanation about when a ref would be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

Judging by this morning's toady programme the tories are running silent


----------



## krink (Nov 27, 2019)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Day off booked for the 13th before the election was announced, so for once I don't have to worry about a ten hour shift minus sleep


Same. But then I remembered I still have to take the kids to school


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I thought this about the Sheffield QT Scottish independence bit. Why not just simple as: you've been suffering a decade of Tory austerity, we can do better, give us a chance to show you and then you can choose? Rather than a complicated technical explanation about when a ref would be.


And make clear that he seeks to persuade, not compel, Scots to delay.

It's disturbing how many English politicians are treating Scotland like a colony, and not a nation with sovereign rights, in direct opposition to the Claim of Right affirmed by Westminster as recently as 2018. However strongly English politicians may disagree with Indyref2, it's not for them to decide. Even an arch-unionist like Thatcher said plainly that she'd never dream of trying to keep Scotland in the union against her people's will.

If nothing else, on pragmatic grounds alone, this is foolhardy. Westminster acting like she's a veto over Scottish self-determination's an excellent way to bring it about a lot quicker and easier than by referendum. Keep this self-defeating nonsense up, and the SNP will be tempted to go back to the old convention of using a majority of Scottish seats as sufficient mandate for dissolving the Union.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> I reckon the WASPI offer will sway a considerbale number of voters, not least the 60 something women themselves.


Its a brilliant pledge . The problem is Labour offer so many things lots get lost and its difficult to focus . I would have thought five or six big promises , focus on them and the rest in the background.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I thought Corbyn was poor. His lack of grasp of the detail was really evident on the WASPI issue (which should be a vote winning pledge). He was also flaky on the top rate tax payer issue not knowing the figures (and more importantly how they relate to equivalent rates in other countries). He was also sloppy on the tax challenge.
> 
> The AS handling never looks good but people know about it by now and have decided their position on it. But on the domestic and economic agenda he - or more accurately his team - should have armed him with rebuttal points. Let’s put it this way, McDonnell would have devoured some of those attacks



I think there will be a (another) Corbyn apology on antisemitism today. You are right that at this time minds are made up, but two and a bit weeks of the man who is not ‘sorry’ will chip away at that and moreover firm up the opposition.

The Neil clip appears to have landed differently with Corbyn being criticised more roundly. He is doing well in most other aspects of the campaign, but what he says on this is wearing thin, needs a passionate reboot. He looked frustrated and angry at Neil’s questions and that won’t cut it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Its a brilliant pledge . The problem is Labour offer so many things lots get lost and its difficult to focus . I would have thought five or six big promises , focus on them and the rest in the background.



Yes. Labour are in danger of promising so much that a) some people get confused and b) people beginning to think they’ll promise anything for votes.

I posted up the 1974 manifesto commitments on nationalisation the other day. Clear, precise, specific. All of the things corbyn wasn’t last night.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> I think there will be a (another) Corbyn apology on antisemitism today. You are right that at this time minds are made up, but two and a bit weeks of the man who is not ‘sorry’ will chip away at that and moreover firm up the opposition.
> 
> The Neil clip appears to have landed differently with Corbyn being criticised more roundly. He is doing well in most other aspects of the campaign, but what he says on this is wearing thin, needs a passionate reboot. He looked frustrated and angry at Neil’s questions and that won’t cut it.



I don’t think the AS issue will keep cutting through. But we’ll see.

The problem with an apology is that the political road leads back to his (and much of his support) entire world view. Crude anti-Americanism, a binary my enemy’s enemy is my friend analysis and a totemic issue for left hobbyists. He’s not AS but he’s politically incapable of dealing with a hinterland that is and even elements of the core which have periodically accommodated it in a usually clunking posturing manner


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 27, 2019)

mauvais said:


> I thought this about the Sheffield QT Scottish independence bit. Why not just simple as: you've been suffering a decade of Tory austerity, we can do better, give us a chance to show you and then you can choose? Rather than a complicated technical explanation about when a ref would be.


Because the reply wasn’t for a Scottish audience but for an English one. He knows Labour in Scotland is a busted flush, but he doesn’t want to alarm English voters that there’ll be another change coming on the back of Brexit.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 27, 2019)

They're going all in on AS...





> A VOTE for Labour is a vote for racism.
> 
> Each one tells Jews: “We don’t care that you’re terrified of Corbyn’s anti-Semitic thugs taking power. Go ahead and leave.”
> 
> ...


----------



## mauvais (Nov 27, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Because the reply wasn’t for a Scottish audience but for an English one. He knows Labour in Scotland is a busted flush, but he doesn’t want to alarm English voters that there’ll be another change coming on the back of Brexit.


Given that what he actually said was that there won't be another indy ref for at least the first two years of a Labour gov, he's not been successful at that either. What I suggested has value to the English as well - that he's going to try and save the union.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

‘It is not that the working classes have nothing to say about politics; it is that there are no parties to listen to them. For all Corbyn’s rhetoric, this has changed less under his leadership than one might imagine’

Excellent reportage from the Guardian for a change characterising Labour’s activist base accurately and working in a terrain alien to it

On the doorstep, Labour faces the question: who do you speak for?


----------



## kabbes (Nov 27, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> They're going all in on AS...
> 
> View attachment 191163


Whereas voting Tory tells people you don’t care about anybody at all.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 27, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Whereas voting Tory tells people you don’t care about anybody at all.


I know you know this, but it's a myth to say that Tories don't care about anyone. They do, they care about themselves, their families and their friends. 

Tories, and conservatives in general, are often very generous and look after the people around them, give to charity, volunteer and all that. They just don't want to be 'forced' to do so.

We need to counter conservative thought and policy by understanding it better and framing the message accordingly. Tories do this effectively by looking at what Labour policies could mean and framing them in a way to appeal to WC fears. 'We' need to do the same by showing how the wider outcome is better for everyone.

I thought Corbyn's one good bit on Neill last night was when he tried to counter the claim that people on low incomes would be taxed more. He started on the defensive and was struggling before bringing it back around to the childcare policies and showing how they'd pay a little more but get a whole load more back in return.

That's what I think Smokeandsteam is getting at here:


Smokeandsteam said:


> But yes, you think he’d have some killer - easy to understand -lines on tax, borrowing and investment lined up given he has been campaigning on them for weeks



He should have ready-made answers to these questions. They don't know the questions up front, but whatever they are, they can be turned around into "yes, and here's how our policies will help with that".

"You're going to tax people more, aren't you?"
"A minority of people will be asked to contribute a little bit more, but here's what they'll be getting in return: free childcare, saving £x, free broadband, saving £y, etc., I think that's a good deal, don't you?"

"Would you bomb a guy in Syria?"
"Labour wouldn't need to nuke anyone as our policies will make us safer. The terrorist threat has failed to be dealt with by the Tories. We would end the arms sales to Saudi, which is the world's #1 source of terror funding, and we would have a foreign policy based on co-operation, and etc., etc."

Obviously I'm no media strategist so those answers above probaby have issues, but they have millions of quid and whole teams of people whose job it is to do this shit. Surely they can do better?

Anyway, slight tangent/rant, there. Sorry


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> I know you know this, but it's a myth to say that Tories don't care about anyone. They do, they care about themselves, their families and their friends.
> 
> Tories, and conservatives in general, are often very generous and look after the people around them, give to charity, volunteer and all that. They just don't want to be 'forced' to do so.
> 
> ...


you wouldn't really know the tories were standing in this election given the focus on trashing labour so apparent on the toady programme this morning


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you wouldn't really know the tories were standing in this election given the focus on trashing labour so apparent on the toady programme this morning


"The only thing worse than being talked about..." adage is really being stretched thin here.


----------



## kebabking (Nov 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you wouldn't really know the tories were standing in this election given the focus on trashing labour so apparent on the toady programme this morning



Easy tactic - the focus is on Corbyn, and not in a complimentary way - all the Tories need to do is simply not put anyone up for interview today. Firstly that stops some non-entity putting his foot in it, and secondly keeps the focus on Corbyn because they've nothing else to talk about.

The old adage is to not interrupt your enemy while he's making a mistake - another would be to not intrude on private grief.

It'll be the Tories turn soon enough...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Easy tactic - the focus is on Corbyn, and not in a complimentary way - all the Tories need to do is simply not put anyone up for interview today. Firstly that stops some non-entity putting his foot in it, and secondly keeps the focus on Corbyn because they've nothing else to talk about.
> 
> The old adage is to not interrupt your enemy while he's making a mistake - another would be to not intrude on private grief.
> 
> It'll be the Tories turn soon enough...


oh i do hope so


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> [...] Tories, and conservatives in general, are often very generous and look after the people around them, give to charity, volunteer and all that. They just don't want to be 'forced' to do so.
> 
> We need to counter conservative thought and policy by understanding it better and framing the message accordingly. Tories do this effectively by looking at what Labour policies could mean and framing them in a way to appeal to WC fears. 'We' need to do the same by showing how the wider outcome is better for everyone. [...]


As a conservative (emphatically not a Tory, a party I detest), I agree about framing. Conservatives tend to be pragmatists who value institutions over fly-by-night politicians and like change to be cautious and gradual. All the exact opposites of the rogues' alliance of spivs and market worshippers who've colonized the Tories like bindweed with half the charm. There's a yawning goal just waiting to be exploited.

That love of institutions can feed into Labour manifestos if done right. A cautious approach to nationalizing, say, the railways would be a vote winner: it's not for nothing that the Tories have pledged to reverse Beeching (matched, naturally, with funding sufficient to open about a mile of track with a Pacer shuttle). Although I agree with Labour's current programme, I know it'll scare away many others with a conservative POV.

Alternatively, start explaining to voters how an economy with a fiat currency and control of its own money supply actually works, and the disbelief in Labour's promises will begin to melt away. Britain's where she is 'cause the Tories have ruthlessly weaponized people's frugality and exploited the household budget lie for all it's worth.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Picking up on what Fez has just posted, a few points need to be made:

1. The central achievement of corbyn and McDonnell, whatever happens in the GE, is that they have reframed politics. It’s now possible to imagine a society not dominated from top to bottom by neo-liberal ‘truths’. Given the last 40 plus years this is a significant achievement. It should not be underestimated. Yes it’s limited and often confused and always contingent but to even get to that point is a shift that at the darkest points seemed impossible. To misquote Frederic Jamieson for most it’s been ‘easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism’. The towering achievement of Corbyn has been to take a step away from the orthodoxy. There is also the achievement of drawing, again with the caveats endlessly discussed here (often by me I accept), young people into political activity.

2. What’s piss boiling is the inability of Corbyn to explain some of the most basic tenets of 1 in front a large audience. A political ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. On at least 4 occasions he could have taken Neil on - on tax, on higher earners, on the WASPI issue and on borrowing. A chance to further popularise, embed and widen consent. To use a footballing terminology the ball has been delivered brilliantly into the box only for the overrated striker to miss an open goal. He’s okay when lobbed up questions by planted audience members, but when put under the pump by a knob like Neill he was all over the shop.


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

Labour are holding a press conference right now about the NHS. Depends what's in this dossier, but could be important...


----------



## MrSki (Nov 27, 2019)

Corbyn on stage now with 451 pages of unredacted documents relating to trade talks with US about NHS.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 27, 2019)

Looks like Agent Corbyn has got his hands on 451 pages of unredacted US/UK trade negotiation documents. Juicy.


----------



## steeplejack (Nov 27, 2019)




----------



## chilango (Nov 27, 2019)

From his Czech spy handlers no doubt


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 27, 2019)

Live video: https://www.reuters.tv/l/P3yE/2019/11/27/jeremy-corbyn-on-the-election-campaign-trail

Jeremy Corbyn on the election campaign trail


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

Yes, *Smokeandsteam* the reframing is why I believe Corbyn was the right choice in 2015. Burnham could've walked it if he'd resigned from shadow cabinet before the Welfare Bill (to this day, I don't understand why he didn't), but when he was compromised, Corbyn was the only hope of breaking the suffocatingly market worship that was choking British politics. The value of moving that Overton window mustn't be underestimated.

And regarding the breaking news of the unredacted NHS documents, if they live up to the preview, it's the kinda revelation that can swing an election. Chlorinated chicken's even appeared on the table!


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> From his Czech spy handlers no doubt


Older, Budweiser.


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Picking up on what Fez has just posted, a few points need to be made:
> 
> 1. The central achievement of corbyn and McDonnell, whatever happens in the GE, is that they have reframed politics. It’s now possible to imagine a society not dominated from top to bottom by neo-liberal ‘truths’. Given the last 40 plus years this is a significant achievement. It should not be underestimated. Yes it’s limited and often confused and always contingent but to even get to that point is a shift that at the darkest points seemed impossible. To misquote Frederic Jamieson for most it’s been ‘easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism’. The towering achievement of Corbyn has been to take a step away from the orthodoxy. There is also the achievement of drawing, again with the caveats endlessly discussed here (often by me I accept), young people into political activity.
> 
> 2. What’s piss boiling is the inability of Corbyn to explain some of the most basic tenets of 1 in front a large audience. A political ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. On at least 4 occasions he could have taken Neil on - on tax, on higher earners, on the WASPI issue and on borrowing. A chance to further popularise, embed and widen consent. To use a footballing terminology the ball has been delivered brilliantly into the box only for the overrated striker to miss an open goal. He’s okay when lobbed up questions by planted audience members, but when put under the pump by a knob like Neill he was all over the shop.



He should have workshopped to death a way of dealing with the question beyond the I have been anti racism all my life. He did look genuinely cross at being pushed on it. Maybe anyone would, but that’s the running for PM deal. He has lacked fulsome engagement on this issue, displays of real passion and apparent soul-searching. That doesn’t mean he is everything they say he is, but it’s a firestorm to deal with now.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 27, 2019)

Excellent, hope this blows up


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 27, 2019)

The docs are here 



- scribd.com/document/43715… 
- scribd.com/document/43715… 
- scribd.com/document/43715… 
- scribd.com/document/43715… 
- scribd.com/document/43715…


----------



## Badgers (Nov 27, 2019)




----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

Shades of Harry Perkins, A Very British coup, audacious stunts,  yet again, took the shine of the SNP manifesto lauch, lessened impact of the A/S issue for next few days

even had NHS workers in scrubs giving out the documents, inspired and wonderful.


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Its a brilliant pledge . The problem is Labour offer so many things lots get lost and its difficult to focus . *I would have thought five or six big promises , focus on them and the rest in the background*.



Zoe Williams said this in the G yesterday, she was bang on for a change.


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> ‘It is not that the working classes have nothing to say about politics; it is that there are no parties to listen to them. For all Corbyn’s rhetoric, this has changed less under his leadership than one might imagine’
> 
> Excellent reportage from the Guardian for a change characterising Labour’s activist base accurately and working in a terrain alien to it
> 
> On the doorstep, Labour faces the question: who do you speak for?



discussed already, but worth more exploration


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 27, 2019)

A tangent, but a bit odd. Those unredacted documents were posted on a reddit thread a few weeks ago. The thread didn't gain any traction at the time.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

krink said:


> Same. But then I remembered I still have to take the kids to school


You'll be alright, I think there's probably a kids climate strike that day, to celebrate Corbyn's first term in office. Just have a lie in.


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> A tangent, but a bit odd. Those unredacted documents were posted on a reddit thread a few weeks ago. The thread didn't gain any traction at the time.



this story has details about how it was sent to multiple journos as well as the LP, and... nothing.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 27, 2019)

I know it is becoming known as the 'Brexit election' and obviously that will have a big influence on the voting, but. I think the Tories/Brexit party are assuming that the Labour Brexit vote will go to them, I don't think that will happen - a lot of the lexit vote was anti-EU not pro Tory , can't see them willingly voting for the Tories when a victory for them would mean 5 more years of their shite .


----------



## MrSki (Nov 27, 2019)




----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Nov 27, 2019)

Well they've clearly had it for quite some time. 

I think, really this was due to be "revealed" later in the election campaign but was pulled forward cuz of last night's shenanigans (which I still haven't seen by the way - can't stand Neil syle pwnage and refuse to watch them).


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> discussed already, but worth more exploration



Has it? Where?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2019)

Nice timing ahead of Trump's visit next week


----------



## Badgers (Nov 27, 2019)

Those bloody Euro Jews meddling in our politics


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I know it is becoming known as the 'Brexit election' and obviously that will have a big influence on the voting, but. I think the Tories/Brexit party are assuming that the Labour Brexit vote will go to them, I don't think that will happen - a lot of the lexit vote was anti-EU not pro Tory , can't see them willingly voting for the Tories when a victory for them would mean 5 more years of their shite .


Saw some polling earlier that Lab have held on to 60-odd percent of their 2017 pro brexit vote.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> ‘It is not that the working classes have nothing to say about politics; it is that there are no parties to listen to them. For all Corbyn’s rhetoric, this has changed less under his leadership than one might imagine’
> 
> Excellent reportage from the Guardian for a change characterising Labour’s activist base accurately and working in a terrain alien to it
> 
> On the doorstep, Labour faces the question: who do you speak for?


Yeah, I liked that. As well as getting to the disconnect between Labour activists and working class areas/voters, it still managed to be fair to those activists. It also got to the issue of 'descending on an area'. In elections there has always been a tradition of activists from other areas coming in for mass leafleting etc. But in the context of the disconnect, it adds to the feel that politics is something done by other people in another place.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> Saw some polling earlier that Lab have held on to 60-odd percent of their 2017 pro brexit vote.



Yes 63%.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 27, 2019)

Apologies for twitter link but this is an interesting perspective on a Johnson hospital visit


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 27, 2019)




----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, I liked that. As well as getting to the disconnect between Labour activists and working class areas/voters, it still managed to be fair to those activists. It also got to the issue of 'descending on an area'. In elections there has always been a tradition of activists from other areas coming in for mass leafleting etc. But in the context of the disconnect, it adds to the feel that politics is something done by other people in another place.



It also correctly identifies that the major working class drift from Labour began under Blair. Labour supporters constantly use the GE 2017 result to measure these things. But, of course, a slightly longer lens reveals a much more severe rupture and parting of the ways. Labour have lost _millions _of working class voters. Most don't vote at all (as the article also highlights) and they won't return under the current leadership and Brexit policy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It also correctly identifies that the major working class drift from Labour began under Blair. Labour supporters constantly use the GE 2017 result to measure these things. But, of course, a slightly longer lens reveals a much more severe rupture and parting of the ways. Labour have lost _millions _of working class voters. Most don't vote at all (as the article also highlights) and they won't return under the current leadership and Brexit policy.


In 2010 I was struck by, impressed by, a vast 'vote labour' sign, about 6' by 3', outside a mansion in Highgate. They've made new friends.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> Saw some polling earlier that Lab have held on to 60-odd percent of their 2017 pro brexit vote.


So they've lost 30-odd per cent of their 2017 pro-brexit vote. That's a lot of people to lose in two years. It's a third of a third, essentially, so they've lost more than 10 per cent of all 2017 Labour voters. That equates to around 4 percentage points in the polls. Could be the difference between a small tory majority and a hung parliament from which Labour can cobble something together.


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf

I tipped you on the Corbyn thread, thats where it was briefly discussed, you have been bang on, I have seen it in my own CLP, and certainly in Momentum, with the latter, W/C weren't on the radar, except in some cases, EDL threat, etc.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> Saw some polling earlier that Lab have held on to 60-odd percent of their 2017 pro brexit vote.


If that is the case , I just can't see the 40% all voting Tory/BP , whatever their desire for Brexit  , they can't want to see the Tories in power for another 5 years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> If that is the case , I just can't see the 40% all voting Tory/BP , whatever their desire for Brexit  , they can't want to see the Tories in power for another 5 years.


or even an extra five minutes


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So they've lost 30-odd per cent of their 2017 pro-brexit vote. That's a lot of people to lose in two years. It's a third of a third, essentially, so they've lost more than 10 per cent of all 2017 Labour voters. That equates to around 4 percentage points in the polls. Could be the difference between a small tory majority and a hung parliament from which Labour can cobble something together.



It's also the case that the seats Labour need to win are, in the main, seats that voted leave in 2017. Someone will be along soon to tell us that if Labour had stuck to its 2017 policy they would have lost their 'new friends'. But to where? Swinson??


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

Fez909 said:


>



yeh they would say that, wouldn't they


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> If that is the case , I just can't see the 40% all voting Tory/BP , whatever their desire for Brexit  , they can't want to see the Tories in power for another 5 years.


IIRC only a small % polled said they would make a direct switch to tory


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

marty21 said:


> If that is the case , I just can't see the 40% all voting Tory/BP , whatever their desire for Brexit  , they can't want to see the Tories in power for another 5 years.



The evidence is some drift to the Tories but in the main they don't vote - more added to the massive pile of WC voters who feel they are without political representation.


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Someone will be along soon to tell us


why do you do this?


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> In 2010 I was struck by, impressed by, a vast 'vote labour' sign, about 6' by 3', outside a mansion in Highgate. They've made new friends.


See Labour are incompetent. If you were struck by the sign you should sue.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 27, 2019)

Everyone know's the Tories will sell off the NHS but their core voters won't admit it 
Even presented with proof they will not accept it 
When it gets sold off they will blame Labour or the poorer of society 

They will sleep like babies in their nice houses and can afford health insurance, even if they 'struggle' alongside private school fees


----------



## chilango (Nov 27, 2019)

Is anybody getting utterly fed up with the BBC coverage? Not (just) because of bias, but because it's crap?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

chilango said:


> Is anybody getting utterly fed up with the BBC coverage? Not (just) because of bias, but because it's crap?


it's absolutely appalling. i've never heard anything so devoid of quality in all my born days.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It also correctly identifies that the major working class drift from Labour began under Blair. Labour supporters constantly use the GE 2017 result to measure these things. But, of course, a slightly longer lens reveals a much more severe rupture and parting of the ways. Labour have lost _millions _of working class voters. Most don't vote at all (as the article also highlights) and they won't return under the current leadership and Brexit policy.


It's always been a bee in my bonnet that the Labour leadership and Momentum don't understand or, more likely, have a politics that engages with these issues. I had a naive view that when Corbyn was elected there would be an attempt by Labour to move back into its own communities/emphasise community organising/think about other forms of resistance/start to shift local government away from making cuts. That does sound very naive, there was nothing in Corbyn's pitch that suggested any of this and the labour left itself has increasingly become the groups described in the article. Metropolitan, young, facing the economic pressures of the young, but disengaged from working class communities. So - the naive bit - I didn't _really _expect that Labour would transform itself, but thought that shift back to Labour as an engaged party of working class communities was _the only logical thing they could do._ It was obvious Labour had become hollowed out in 2015, disconnected. But here we are in 2019.

Brexit of course has been a horror story for Labour and pushed the party further away from it's base. It's been the era of Keir Starmer and plotting silly moves in Parliament. Thinking they could do for May/Johnson with a nod from speaker Bercow. Alienating everybody, particularly leave voters. I've said before, I'm neither remain nor leave, in the absence of a functioning Lexit. But if Labour had been serious about reconnecting it should have been creating it's own social democratic Lexit. Risks of losing remain voters and working class voters in remain areas, but building a campaign around workers rights, environmental protection and the rest would have been a decent message. Something _better _than the EU.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> why do you do this?



I like to anticipate your arrival...


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> why do you do this?


John the Baptist was the same.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> Wilf
> 
> I tipped you on the Corbyn thread, thats where it was briefly discussed, you have been bang on, I have seen it in my own CLP, and certainly in Momentum, with the latter, W/C weren't on the radar, except in some cases, EDL threat, etc.


Ah, cheers, sorry, I missed it, my mum's ill so I've only been on here sporadically. And right on cue I've just had another lengthy rant along the same lines!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Ah, cheers, sorry, I missed it, my mum's ill so I've only been on here sporadically. And right on cue I've just had another lengthy rant along the same lines!


best wishes for your mum's swift recovery


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> best wishes for your mum's swift recovery



What Pickman's said Wilf


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> best wishes for your mum's swift recovery


Many thanks.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Ah, cheers, sorry, I missed it, my mum's ill so I've only been on here sporadically. And right on cue I've just had another lengthy rant along the same lines!


Sorry to hear about your mum, mate. Hope there’s other family members to take some of the strain.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 27, 2019)

Liz truss response to being asked about the leaked redacted papers summarised :


Yeah but antisemitism


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I like to anticipate your arrival...


by inventing positions for me to take? ta for that.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> by inventing positions for me to take? ta for that.



You are most welcome


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Liz truss response to being asked about the leaked redacted papers summarised :
> 
> 
> Yeah but antisemitism



Appalling, they merit a detailed response.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> Appalling, they merit a detailed response.



The Tories line is:

1. talks happened under a previous leader (May)
2. Talks were officials only. Not Ministers/pols 
3. Talks have not started yet. When they do the NHS isn’t on the table
4. This is a distraction from Brexit...blah


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Ah, cheers, sorry, I missed it, my mum's ill so I've only been on here sporadically. And right on cue I've just had another lengthy rant along the same lines!


Yeah, best wishes to you and your mum Wilf


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, best wishes to you and your mum Wilf


Thanks.


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are most welcome


I don't actually disagree that a policy of a second referendum is poison to (some of) Labour's former working class base, but I think it's a whole lot more complicated than you make out, and a whole lot more difficult than you seem to think for Labour to just plough on with the same Brexit policy they had in 2017 when the politics has changed considerably since.

Anyway, this piece touches on the same ground, and shows the malaise with Labour in the heartlands goes well beyond Brexit The hidden predictor? Council control


----------



## chilango (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Thanks.



Best wishes from me too.


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> It's always been a bee in my bonnet that the Labour leadership and Momentum don't understand or, more likely, have a politics that engages with these issues. I had a naive view that when Corbyn was elected there would be an attempt by Labour to move back into its own communities/emphasise community organising/think about other forms of resistance/start to shift local government away from making cuts. That does sound very naive, there was nothing in Corbyn's pitch that suggested any of this and the labour left itself has increasingly become the groups described in the article. Metropolitan, young, facing the economic pressures of the young, but disengaged from working class communities. So - the naive bit - I didn't _really _expect that Labour would transform itself, but thought that shift back to Labour as an engaged party of working class communities was _the only logical thing they could do._ It was obvious Labour had become hollowed out in 2015, disconnected. But here we are in 2019.
> 
> Brexit of course has been a horror story for Labour and pushed the party further away from it's base. It's been the era of Keir Starmer and plotting silly moves in Parliament. Thinking they could do for May/Johnson with a nod from speaker Bercow. Alienating everybody, particularly leave voters. I've said before, I'm neither remain nor leave, in the absence of a functioning Lexit. But if Labour had been serious about reconnecting it should have been creating it's own social democratic Lexit. Risks of losing remain voters and working class voters in remain areas, but building a campaign around workers rights, environmental protection and the rest would have been a decent message. Something _better _than the EU.



The thing is,if you want to challenge this, then you have raise the issue of what the new members, etc,are interested in, and that can cause real tensions, shouted down, etc,

btw, how do you tag?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> The thing is,if you want to challenge this, then you have raise the issue of what the new members, etc,are interested in, and that can cause real tensions, shouted down, etc,
> 
> btw, how do you tag?


You type @ and then start typing the name of the poster, which then appears and you can click on it treelover  (no gap between the @ and the posters name).

Edit: and on what you say, I think that's a divide in various parts of the left as broadly defined. Non aligned anti austerity groups are not immune nor are anarcho groups (to say the least). After Labour and the Corbyn projects likely defeat in a couple of weeks, all this will be part of the wider left's autopsy. Whether post 2015 Labour joiners will start to drift back into other left politics (or none) will also be a live issue.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 27, 2019)

Pickman's model


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2019)

treelover said:


> The thing is,if you want to challenge this, then you have raise the issue of what the new members, etc,are interested in, and that can cause real tensions, shouted down, etc,
> 
> btw, how do you tag?


perhaps you should ask what the new members are interested in rather than raising the point on their behalf


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 27, 2019)

Sorry to hear about your mum Wilf, hope you're alright mon


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Sorry to hear about your mum Wilf, hope you're alright mon


Cheers and thanks all (and sorry for the derail).


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 27, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Apologies for twitter link but this is an interesting perspective on a Johnson hospital visit




I'd absolutely love it if he came to my workplace.

Have no doubt all the shit around it is true.


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 27, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> I'd absolutely love it if he came to my workplace.
> 
> Have no doubt all the shit around it is true.



Certainly reads very true indeed, doesn't it? 
(ETA : Sorry, I didn't realise that link had already been posted  )


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 27, 2019)

My local council have _already_ set up a polling booth (a Portakabin!) on the edge of the estate just next to where I work**. Has anyone else yet noticed any early signs of voting places? 
(**Not in our own ward -- we'll vote in a community centre).

Previous elections, the above cabin has only appeared about three days earlier.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 27, 2019)

Not seen this confirmed.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 27, 2019)

Can't believe this!


----------



## agricola (Nov 27, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Can't believe this!




You shouldn't


----------



## MrSki (Nov 27, 2019)

agricola said:


> You shouldn't


Fell for that one. Mind you it would not surprise me.


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Not seen this confirmed.


all spads resign at the start of an election campaign - there was a similar story (with similar initial SHOCK) about Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill last time round.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> all spads resign at the start of an election campaign - there was a similar story (with similar initial SHOCK) about Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill last time round.



If memory serves those two jumped ship the day after the 2017 election.


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

'Dominic Cummings getting ready for Christmas ... hanging out his Goldman Sachs'

pinched from CIF


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2019)

> Labour needs its leave voters too – or a Johnson era beckons | Owen Jones
> 
> Unless the party starts winning round leavers soon, it can kiss goodbye to its election hopes
> Owen jones



Labour London types now getting it?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 27, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Just watched the Andrew Neill interview, and thought it was a shocker, tbh. Yeah, Neill was a dick, but that's what he's meant to do. Corbyn didn't look good. Would be almost impossible to look 'good', but he didn't handle it well.
> 
> Tories are re-broadcasting it on their 'FB live' page.
> 
> Won't mean much anyway, but to say he came across OK is not reality.



I’ve only seen a few clips and it was almost as painful as the Prince Andrew interview.


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If memory serves those two jumped ship the day after the 2017 election.


It was Katie Perrior PM's top spin doctor resigns after early election call


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 27, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I’ve only seen a few clips and it was almost as painful as the Prince Andrew interview.



Watch the whole lot, then you can be even more critical


----------



## William of Walworth (Nov 27, 2019)

For what it's worth, festivaldeb and I have both properly been recruited as Labour leaflet droppers.
I'll be doing a central ward in Swansea West middayish on Friday, then at the Swansea end of Gower constituency later that afternoon.

Then on Monday after work, we'll both be doing some leaflet drops, not sure where yet. We do know from Gower's ward agent and from one of the Swansea West city councillors (both of them are CAMRA pals too!) that new leaflets are being brought out very soon.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 27, 2019)

Wilf said:


> [...] Brexit of course has been a horror story for Labour and pushed the party further away from it's base. It's been the era of Keir Starmer and plotting silly moves in Parliament. Thinking they could do for May/Johnson with a nod from speaker Bercow. Alienating everybody, particularly leave voters. I've said before, I'm neither remain nor leave, in the absence of a functioning Lexit. But if Labour had been serious about reconnecting it should have been creating it's own social democratic Lexit. Risks of losing remain voters and working class voters in remain areas, but building a campaign around workers rights, environmental protection and the rest would have been a decent message. Something _better _than the EU.


Outstanding observations on community alienation from Labour! 

As regards "Lexit" specifically, I'd be interested to know what you had in mind. It's a concept I've always struggled with. I favoured secession from the E.U. long before Brexit was a word, but my arguments were always rooted in national sovereignty, and I considered the Norway option essential to safeguarding Britain's economy. Since retaining EEA membership leaves the U.K. party to state aid restricted other fiscal rules, it doesn't leave much scope for Lexit: but leaving the single market would so devastate the economy that scope for any economic reform would be severely limited. How would Lexit work?


----------



## Humberto (Nov 27, 2019)

Nobody in the establishment is doing Labour any favours, that is for sure. Polling numbers narrowing? Ramp up the anti-semitism bullshit. Nothing Corbyn does is without censure. The thing is, I'm a christian, but I don't buy Archbishop Welby. My Gran was Jewish, was arrested for looking Jewish by the Nazis, and I don't buy the Chief Rabbi. And the simple fact is the Tories are more racist, and more anti-semitic for that matter. But it's a game. There are Jewish groups who see this for what it is, the establishment closing ranks.

'Oh, our former industrial town is a shithole, the town centre is bleak.' They all are, across the land. Stop feeding the beast and stand up to it. Stop accepting the state's manipulation of democracy on behalf of its billionaire backers. We have the momentum.

The bottom line is that the people suffer under Tory governments. Always have done in my lifetime. They are scared of us because they only have one game. We can blow them to smithereens if we 'catch ourselves on'.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 27, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Those bloody Euro Jews meddling in our politics



House of Commons postcode is wrong. 

The organisations email address is a gmail one, despite them appearing to own this recent acquired domain:

Choose Your Language - United European Jews Not a terribly fleshed-out website either.

The contact phone number at the bottom isn't recognised when you call it.

The address at the bottom appears to be a bakery?

Rabbi Mayer Weinberger has no internet presence prior to this letter.

Well.


----------



## killer b (Nov 27, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> House of Commons postcode is wrong.
> 
> The organisations email address is a gmail one, despite them appearing to own this recent acquired domain:
> 
> ...


tbf I didn't even need to check to tell it was either a tiny crank sect or completely made up.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 27, 2019)

killer b said:


> tbf I didn't even need to check to tell it was either a tiny crank sect or completely made up.



Tbf I bookmarked it when it was going around earlier purely on the basis that a Rabbi wouldn't have such a shit signature


----------



## Humberto (Nov 27, 2019)

ah well


----------



## keybored (Nov 28, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Rabbi Mayer Weinberger has no internet presence prior to this letter.


I found a fair few hits including this (also ) from April.
Pan-Europe Orthodox Jewish organisation’s letter to Corbyn records ‘gratitude for numerous acts of solidarity’


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 28, 2019)

They are a haredi jewish group, ultra orthodox although they reject that term, but against modernity and stuff. Probably a bit of a shit comparison but a bit like jewish amish I suppose. Dunno how many people in this group but it is weird they don't have their own domain, maybe that's too modern


----------



## bimble (Nov 28, 2019)

it's the naturei karta with a new name.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 28, 2019)

This is taking the piss...



> Boris Johnson now says he privately told colleagues after the 2010 general election that "austerity was just not the right way forward for the UK" - but never aired his concerns publicly
> 
> In an interview with The Spectator, the Prime Minister now says he privately opposed the deficit-slashing policies of the Tory-Lib Dem coalition between 2010 and 2015.
> 
> He said: "I remember having conversations with colleagues in the government that came in in 2010 saying I thought austerity was just not the right way forward for the UK."



Boris Johnson admits austerity was wrong - after a decade of painful Tory cuts


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 28, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> This is taking the piss...
> 
> 
> 
> Boris Johnson admits austerity was wrong - after a decade of painful Tory cuts


Not sure 'I was against it but kept my mouth shut' is the trump card he thinks it is really


----------



## Wilf (Nov 28, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not sure 'I was against it but kept my mouth shut' is the trump card he thinks it is really


_'In my weakness and ambition, I kept my mouth shut...'_


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 28, 2019)

He got where he got by being all things to all people, by trimming his opinions, if he really had any, to what people he was with wanted to hear. He could cross the road and say one thing on one side and another on the other.


----------



## Sue (Nov 28, 2019)

Ex-Labour seat, went SNP in 2015, 5000 majority. Imagine it was v unlikely Labour would've won this back anyway...

Scottish Labour drops Falkirk candidate over antisemitism claims


----------



## killer b (Nov 28, 2019)

Another candidate dropped over antisemitism, this time by the SNP - looks like Labour might manage to hang on to two seats in Scotland instead of just one...

SNP drop candidate over claims of anti-Semitism


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 29, 2019)

Sue said:


> Ex-Labour seat, went SNP in 2015, 5000 majority. Imagine it was v unlikely Labour would've won this back anyway...
> 
> Scottish Labour drops Falkirk candidate over antisemitism claims





killer b said:


> Another candidate dropped over antisemitism, this time by the SNP - looks like Labour might manage to hang on to two seats in Scotland instead of just one...
> 
> SNP drop candidate over claims of anti-Semitism


This is an informal alliance.

They know they have to contest every seat, but if your candidate says something antisiemitic, then you can have them deselected without arousing suspicion.

Do it for enough seats and you can deprive the Tories of their majority while at the same time looking 'strong' on the issue for the media.


----------



## Gerry1time (Nov 29, 2019)

Have we had this yet?

Jo Swinson sends her CV off to Facebook


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> Have we had this yet?
> 
> Jo Swinson sends her CV off to Facebook



Lol, even in jest that’s not a bad idea for her. 

Nick Clegg landed a $15 million a year job at Facebook after he left politics.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Lol, even in jest that’s not a bad idea for her.
> 
> Nick Clegg landed a $15 million a year job at Facebook after he left politics.


Didn't Nick Clegg get a job at Facebook as well?


----------



## belboid (Nov 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Didn't Nick Clegg get a job at Facebook as well?


methinks thats the joke


----------



## Gerry1time (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Nick Clegg landed a $15 million a year job at Facebook after he left politics.



About half that, but still an absurd amount of money - Nick Clegg swaps Putney townhouse for £7million California mansion ahead of new Facebook role


----------



## Sue (Nov 29, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> This is an informal alliance.
> 
> They know they have to contest every seat, but if your candidate says something antisiemitic, then you can have them deselected without arousing suspicion.
> 
> Do it for enough seats and you can deprive the Tories of their majority while at the same time looking 'strong' on the issue for the media.


Are you suggesting there's an informal alliance between Labour and the SNP? If so, you've not been paying attention for the last decade at least.

Eta You do know Labour were telling people in certain seats to vote Tory to stop the SNP before?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Nov 29, 2019)

Sue said:


> Are you suggesting there's an informal alliance between Labour and the SNP? If so, you've not been paying attention for the last decade at least.
> 
> Eta You do know Labour were telling people in certain seats to vote Tory to stop the SNP before?


The snp were doing that too, to stop labour.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 29, 2019)

Sue said:


> Are you suggesting there's an informal alliance between Labour and the SNP? If so, you've not been paying attention for the last decade at least.
> 
> Eta You do know Labour were telling people in certain seats to vote Tory to stop the SNP before?


No, it was a joke


----------



## Sue (Nov 29, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> The snp were doing that too, to stop labour.


Unaware of that. Whereabouts?


----------



## Mr Moose (Nov 29, 2019)

Sue said:


> Are you suggesting there's an informal alliance between Labour and the SNP? If so, you've not been paying attention for the last decade at least.
> 
> Eta You do know Labour were telling people in certain seats to vote Tory to stop the SNP before?



Was that policy or a random fool?


----------



## magneze (Nov 29, 2019)

Any thoughts on the climate debate? I didn't see it but feels like Johnson is the big loser. The narrative of avoiding scrutiny is taking hold.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Nov 29, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> About half that, but still an absurd amount of money - Nick Clegg swaps Putney townhouse for £7million California mansion ahead of new Facebook role



I wonder if he's keeping his two bed flat in Stannington as a weekend place?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

Daily Mail owner buys i newspaper for £50m

Just in time to change agenda


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Daily Mail owner buys i newspaper for £50m
> 
> Just in time to change agenda



I've just posted that on the Johnson Press thread, it's been a dead cert for sometime, as they were confirmed as the only bidder left.

The 'i' newspaper & 200 others up for grabs - Johnston Press puts itself up for sale.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

> that requires a certain degree of literacy which I think the Great British public doesn't necessarily have.... *they* couldn't spell Pinocchio if they tried.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

BJ has just held a press conference.

The theme: ‘this is the Brexit election’.



> The prime minister said a re-elected Conservative government would take "immediate steps" to introduce new rules to take effect after the transition period is due to finish at the end of 2020. These would include a new immigration system, a new state aid regime to help industries in trouble, scrapping VAT on sanitary products and promoting a "buy British" rule for public bodies to help farmers.
> He said a new law to implement the withdrawal agreement - the Brexit "divorce" deal - would be brought back to the Commons before Christmas if the Conservatives won a majority at the general election



General election 2019: Latest from the campaign trail as parties prepare for BBC debate - BBC News


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


>




You can see where Boris gets his attitude from.


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 29, 2019)

King Biscuit Time said:


> I wonder if he's keeping his two bed flat in Stannington as a weekend place?



((((Stannington))))


----------



## treelover (Nov 29, 2019)

Sun touting for bad news about the NHS, paying for it as well, journalism?

at least we know they see the NHS as a weakness for them.


----------



## BristolEcho (Nov 29, 2019)

Imagine being the absolute toss that did that interview.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Nov 29, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> The snp were doing that too, to stop labour.


They did it in east ren, where I’m from, during the 2005 election. I don’t live there any more though so don’t know if they’re still doing it!

Edit - I guess it worked though as the snp took the seat from labour that year!


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Nov 29, 2019)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> They did it in east ren, where I’m from, during the 2005 election. I don’t live there any more though so don’t know if they’re still doing it!


 sorry meant to quote Sue not myself


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Imagine being the absolute toss that did that interview.



I’ll do it. What’s the phone number?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

Good, honest reporting by the sc*m


----------



## Raheem (Nov 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I’ll do it. What’s the phone number?


Me too. I've got a brilliant nurse voice.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Raheem said:


> Me too. I've got a brilliant nurse voice.


i've heard you sound just like hattie jacques, the matron out of carry on doctor (and other carry on films)


----------



## Raheem (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i've you sound just like hattie jacques, the matron out of carry on doctor (and other carry on films)


It's more like a sinister Charlie Fairhead.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

slight dodgy day with the current goverment treating a national broadcaster

and misquoting another presenters to push its line further 


*saying that lauras employers  complaining about someone making it appear she is bais toward the tory's is kinda funny *


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)




----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

So Corbyn now wants to rip gas boilers out of homes - but will offer interest free loans for homeowners to pay for it?

Channel 4 debate: Corbyn to force homeowners to spend THOUSANDS to eradicate gas boilers — Express

Fucking awesome


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> So Corbyn now wants to rip gas boilers out of homes - but will offer interest free loans for homeowners to pay for it?
> 
> Channel 4 debate: Corbyn to force homeowners to spend THOUSANDS to eradicate gas boilers — Express
> 
> Fucking awesome


Yep. Awesome. Ambitious, proper Green New Deal stuff. Well done him.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> So Corbyn now wants to rip gas boilers out of homes - but will offer interest free loans for homeowners to pay for it?
> 
> Channel 4 debate: Corbyn to force homeowners to spend THOUSANDS to eradicate gas boilers — Express
> 
> Fucking awesome




We must stop using gas to heat our homes. Well done to any fucker who has a plan as to how we can achieve that


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

We don't get to zero carbon by magic. It takes work and investment and compulsion, at the end of the day, to make things change. Idiots like Marty1 and the Express complain about Labour handing out freebies then also complain about people with assets being expected to pay for improvements to those assets. How would you do it, Marty1? Do you even understand why it needs to be done?


----------



## mx wcfc (Nov 29, 2019)

That's not the point.  we have to change the way we do things.  Of course changing the way we heat our homes, cook our food and make hot water is a big big problem, but we have to deal with it, or we are all fucked,  The cost is nothing compared to if we do nothing.

(that was a rely to the post one up, not LBJ)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> That's not the point.  we have to change the way we do things.  Of course changing the way we heat our homes, cook our food and make hot water is a big big problem, but we have to deal with it, or we are all fucked,  The cost is nothing compared to if we do nothing.
> 
> (that was a rely to the post one up, not LBJ)



Yep, had a new boiler put in last year, nearly five grand, but we need to have a viable alternative that is not so destructive. That won’t come by me ripping it out, it needs to be a national commitment to heating via genuinely renewable leccy. To get everyone there needs a national policy from government. This is what XR is asking for, it ain’t difficult to grasp and if it doesn’t happen we’re all fucked. Yet there is still resistance, it’s bonkers.


----------



## mx wcfc (Nov 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep, had a new boiler put in last year, nearly five grand, but we need to have a viable alternative that is not so destructive. That won’t come by me ripping it out, it needs to be a national commitment to heating via genuinely renewable leccy. To get everyone there needs a national policy from government. This is what XR is asking for, it ain’t difficult to grasp and if it doesn’t happen we’re all fucked. Yet there is still resistance, it’s bonkers.


OK. maybe we don't disagree that much, but change has to happen and that is going to involve a lot of people be out of pocket (which is shit), and a lot of resistance.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> OK. maybe we don't disagree that much, but change has to happen and that is going to involve a lot of people be out of pocket (which is shit), and a lot of resistance.


This sounds like the way to do it, though. Social housing, it's done of course by the landlord. Private renting, it's done by the landlord (and needs to be combined with other elements such as rent controls to make sure it's the _landlords_ who pay for it). But ultimately, if you own a house and you're making an improvement to it that will increase its resale value, you're going to have to pay for it, and the offer of an interest-free loan to do so seems about about the best way to handle that reality.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We must stop using gas to heat our homes. Well done to any fucker who has a plan as to how we can achieve that



So you think this new proposal is an election winner?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This sounds like the way to do it, though. Social housing, it's done of course by the landlord. Private renting, it's done by the landlord (and needs to be combined with other elements such as rent controls to make sure it's the _landlords_ who pay for it). But ultimately, if you own a house and you're making an improvement to it that will increase its resale value, you're going to have to pay for it, and the offer of an interest-free loan to do so seems about about the best way to handle that reality.



I think you live in cloud cuckoo land tbh.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I think you live in cloud cuckoo land tbh.


No, you do. You're a boring old climate-change denier. You have no answers. You don't even understand the question.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> So you think this new proposal is an election winner?


gets my vote


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> So you think this new proposal is an election winner?



I couldn’t give a fuck about any politico, unless we’re talking about separating their heads from their bodies.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No, you do. You're a boring old climate-change denier. You have no answers. You don't even understand the question.



It’s perfectly clear that you are happy to spend other people’s money.

Landlords pay to rip out gas boilers - which would inevitably lead to rent increases - but no - cuz rent controls - yay! Sorted!

Absolute fantasist.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I couldn’t give a fuck about any politico, unless we’re talking about separating their heads from their bodies.



You make a valid point tbf


----------



## mx wcfc (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This sounds like the way to do it, though. Social housing, it's done of course by the landlord. Private renting, it's done by the landlord (and needs to be combined with other elements such as rent controls to make sure it's the _landlords_ who pay for it). But ultimately, if you own a house and you're making an improvement to it that will increase its resale value, you're going to have to pay for it, and the offer of an interest-free loan to do so seems about about the best way to handle that reality.


There is really easy stuff,  Change building regs so no one can build anything anywhere without solar panels (how this hasn't happened yet is beyond me other than it costing property developers a few quid), and I don't care if the roofs point the wrong way, change the paln so they do.  And change rules around around conservation zones.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> OK. maybe we don't disagree that much, but change has to happen and that is going to involve a lot of people be out of pocket (which is shit), and a lot of resistance.



It will meet much resistance, I have just spend five grand on a new boiler, etc. Which is why it must be a government thing; gas to be phased out, here is your viable alternative, you have three years or you start shivering. Will provide loads of well paid jobs too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Landlord pay to rip out gas boilers - which would inevitably lead to rent increases - but no - cuz rent controls - yay! Sorted!


yep. There is no inevitability to rent increases because of the gap between what landlords charge and the amount of that money that they spend. Renting property is the ultimate free lunch. This will just take the dessert off the menu for a little while, that's all.

You do understand rent controls and that they used to exist - existed for years under Thatcher until she abolished them. You do get how they work, yes? You do get why they're needed?


----------



## Flavour (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> It’s perfectly clear that you are happy to spend other people’s money.
> 
> Landlords pay to rip out gas boilers - which would inevitably lead to rent increases - but no - cuz rent controls - yay! Sorted!
> 
> Absolute fantasist.



why don't you just fuck off you boring right wing twat


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1, you do understand that you're Thatcher's child, don't you? I worry you might be too thick to realise. Why not join the Daily Express comments board if we're all fantasists on here?


----------



## MrSki (Nov 29, 2019)

Welsh tory accused of adding swastikas to his own sign for sympathy.








Tory MP accused of adding swastika graffiti to his own election placard to get sympathy


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Kinell. How hard is it exactly to find yourself a black pen?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Welsh tory accused of adding swastikas to his own sign for sympathy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thing is...how thick does the twat have to be to drag out that top notch, actual graffiti?
I mean _*"will starve your nan and steal her house"; *_that's quality.


----------



## tommers (Nov 29, 2019)

Things are better when everybody thinks the same.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Marty1, you do understand that you're Thatcher's child, don't you? I worry you might be too thick to realise. Why not join the Daily Express comments board if we're all fantasists on here?



Far from it.

Don’t you understand that it’s these type of cack handed green tax payer funded pledges that will almost guarantee a Tory govt?

From what I’ve seen so far if Labour were to get into power it would be equivalent to letting your kids run your annual home budget - be a good time party for the first six months to a year before you filed for bankruptcy.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Too thick to realise. Feared as much.


----------



## Wilf (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Kinell. How hard is it exactly to find yourself a black pen?


Innocent explanation: '_y'know, when you are on the phone and you start absent mindedly doodling on the nearest surface? Could be a flower, a balloon, the symbol of the Third Reich...'_


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Far from it.
> 
> Don’t you understand that it’s these type of cack handed green tax payer funded pledges that will almost guarantee a Tory govt?
> 
> From what I’ve seen so far if Labour were to get into power it would be equivalent to letting your kids run your annual home budget - be a good time party for the first six months to a year before you filed for bankruptcy.



Read a bit of history (not the great men sort) and economics (but not too much).. and stop being such a coward.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## tommers (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Far from it.
> 
> Don’t you understand that it’s these type of cack handed green tax payer funded pledges that will almost guarantee a Tory govt?
> 
> From what I’ve seen so far if Labour were to get into power it would be equivalent to letting your kids run your annual home budget - be a good time party for the first six months to a year before you filed for bankruptcy.



I agree with you that this will get resistance from people. But I don't agree that austerity is the answer to financial issues. I said it in 2008 or whenever it started and its been proved to not be the answer since. It treats the country's finances as if they were a household budget and it doesn't work like that.

Maybe it's time to try something else? Spend some money, create some jobs, get the economy flowing again. Getting rid of 450k public sector workers and expecting tax income to rise was fucking stupid.

Carrying on the way we are isn't going to cut it. Might as well try something else.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 29, 2019)

Not sure if this has been posted Election 2019: Labour pledges inquiry into seven years of DWP benefit deaths


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 29, 2019)

IIRC labour also have committed to equality of arms for families in inquests

Labour promises automatic legal aid for state-related deaths


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 29, 2019)

Possibly a silly question this, but if MPs can't call themselves MPs during election period, how come Johnson can still be called PM?


----------



## belboid (Nov 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Possibly a silly question this, but if MPs can't call themselves MPs during election period, how come Johnson can still be called PM?


Cos he is. Same as brown was still pm after losing the election! The ministers are still ministers as well.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Possibly a silly question this, but if MPs can't call themselves MPs during election period, how come Johnson can still be called PM?


Because the HoC is dissolved but the government isn't.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 29, 2019)

Ah. Cheers both. Still think it's a bit of a scam, should make them be former ministers/PM until the GE


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ah. Cheers both. Still think it's a bit of a scam, should make them be former ministers/PM until the GE



but then larry the cat would be the only one in charge during the election period.

hmm.

sounds like a good idea


----------



## belboid (Nov 29, 2019)

Not sure what would happen if, like 2010, no one got an overall majority, but Johnson lost his seat. Normally the outgoing pm holds on until a new government is formed but pm has to be an mp, so if he wasn’t...


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> gets my vote



Only when you’re old enough to.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But ultimately, if you own a house and you're making an improvement to it that will increase its resale value, you're going to have to pay for it, and the offer of an interest-free loan to do so seems about about the best way to handle that reality.


What happens if you're on a low income and are just about scraping by as it is. How are you going to afford the repayments of a sizeable loan on top even if it is interest free?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> What happens if you're on a low income and are just about scraping by as it is. How are you going to afford the repayments of a sizeable loan on top even if it is interest free?


Even the Express couldn't ignore the fact that Corbyn answered that one.



> Those on low incomes will have it done for them.



Thing is the question here isn't 'should it be done?' That question is already answered. The only  question is 'how should it be done?' How would you do it if not like this?

Note also that, as ever, the likes of the Express are keen to cry about stuff like this, but they themselves offer no solutions. They are tired old climate-change deniers, like our own Marty1 here.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Only when you’re old enough to.


Yeah, you got me. I'm only 17. I'm precocious, mind. I signed up to U75 aged 3.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Even the Express couldn't ignore the fact that Corbyn answered that one.
> 
> 
> 
> Thing is the question here isn't 'should it be done?' That question is already answered. The only  question is 'how should it be done?' How would you do it if not like this?


The way I read it when watching the debate was Corbyn meant those on benefits.

Even some people on middle incomes can be struggling these days. How does that fit with what Corbyn said?
It may be better if the loan was secured against the property and only repaid when the house is sold.

I fully support the idea of reducing CO2 and I'm in the process of insulating my house to the highest standards I can manage. My house is heated by a carbon neutral wood burner and as soon as I can I'll be putting in a heat recovery ventilation system.

I'm convinced the amount all parties have been quoting is woefully inadequate for the job at hand.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> I'm convinced the amount all parties have been quoting is woefully inadequate for the job at hand.


Yes, that is probably the case. As with most public works, tbh - it is usual to underestimate/outright lie in order to get a thing started, then it's too late to stop when it becomes clear it's going to cost a lot more. 

But again I ask, how else to do it? It could be tweaked to allow some deferment of payment until someone dies and their home can be sold, perhaps - some form of equity release, essentially. But the basic thrust would still have to be that those who own property and whose property will be worth more once it has been upgraded really have to pay for this. Unfair for them not to. And an interest-free loan to enable it is not a bad offer. This stuff is going to cost. But it's also going to create - jobs and innovation and, well, energy in the economy. And we have no choice. Finally it is starting to be discussed properly - this is the first election really that it's been at the forefront of a major party's proposals. Thirty years late (and the UK is behind many other countries now) but better late than never. Me, I applaud it.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 30, 2019)

Next year could be one where we invest in public services or further ruin them and introduce private interests for their own profit. That's what the Tories are planning. We could see the housing crisis begin to be dealt with - because it absolutely needn't be this way - or we could stick with the Tories and let it rot away.

A new decade, a new start. The reason the country is ruined and getting worse for the 90 odd per cent is that the 0.1% control the media, scaremonger about Labour and buy off the middle class; those who stand to gain. I've said it before: they are scared of us. They should be. They grasp and oppress. They are all at it. They wound themselves though and that is no way to run a country and indeed a world. Time for change.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 30, 2019)

Time to prepare for the scenarios we will be facing.


----------



## N_igma (Nov 30, 2019)

It all reads from a chapter of The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. That book is over a 100 years old and we’re still living in the same shit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Because the HoC is dissolved but the government isn't.



need a bigger acid bath then.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> From what I’ve seen so far if Labour were to get into power it would be equivalent to letting your kids run your annual home budget - be a good time party for the first six months to a year before you filed for bankruptcy.



I know why you think that. It's because you're a fucking moron.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Whichever home has the legal right to print its own currency, someone please locate it so the bidding war can begin.


----------



## chilango (Nov 30, 2019)

"it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism"

Turns out for some it is literally easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of ultra-low taxation


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 30, 2019)

N_igma said:


> It all reads from a chapter of The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. That book is over a 100 years old and we’re still living in the same shit.



On my bus journey to work I'm currently re-reading 'The Making of the English Working Class'. I keep being pulled up short by things in contemporary society that would be absolutely familiar to our early nineteenth century predecessors (seen as either good or bad things, but recognised nonetheless)...low wages, state attacks on notions of mutual aid and solidarity, insecure and inappropriate housing, deep and striking dislocations of society, valourisation of individualism, desires for profound social economic, political and social change.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> On my bus journey to work I'm currently re-reading 'The Making of the English Working Class'. I keep being pulled up short by things in contemporary society that would be absolutely familiar to our early nineteenth century predecessors (seen as either good or bad things, but recognised nonetheless)...low wages, state attacks on notions of mutual aid and solidarity, insecure and inappropriate housing, deep and striking dislocations of society, valourisation of individualism, desires for profound social economic, political and social change.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Exactly why I find myself in the bizarre position, as a (passionately anti-Tory) conservative, of finding Labour's manifesto closet to my preferred economic and social outlook. I'm especially keen to see trade union rights bolstered.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> On my bus journey to work I'm currently re-reading 'The Making of the English Working Class'. I keep being pulled up short by things in contemporary society that would be absolutely familiar to our early nineteenth century predecessors (seen as either good or bad things, but recognised nonetheless)...low wages, state attacks on notions of mutual aid and solidarity, insecure and inappropriate housing, deep and striking dislocations of society, valourisation of individualism, desires for profound social economic, political and social change.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Does it include not carrying out the democratic will of the people? (Many of which being low wage earners in insecure housing etc?).

Cheers.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Does it include not carrying out the democratic will of the people? (Many of which being low wage earners in insecure housing etc?).
> 
> Cheers.



You mean the book covering 1780-1832, that being the year when voting rights were first extended to males renting land above a certain value, equivalent to the top seventh or so richest males in Britain?

Yes.

You one note idiot.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Does it include not carrying out the democratic will of the people? (Many of which being low wage earners in insecure housing etc?).
> 
> Cheers.


Does Engels Do Brexit


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> You mean the book covering 1780-1832, that being the year when voting rights were first extended to males renting land above a certain value, equivalent to the top seventh or so richest males in Britain?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> You one note idiot.


----------



## weltweit (Nov 30, 2019)

Can I assume Johnson's saying that others are discussing whether he should do the af Neil interview that they might be negotiating questions that cannot be asked, for example the Darius guppy issue etc..


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

weltweit said:


> Can I assume Johnson's saying that others are discussing whether he should do the af Neil interview that they might be negotiating questions that cannot be asked, for example the Darius guppy issue etc..


Well the BBC seem to be going ahead with the Marr interview without having the Neil interview confirmed. Supposedly because of the London Bridge incident.


----------



## magneze (Nov 30, 2019)

Disgusting


----------



## editor (Nov 30, 2019)

> Matt Hancock Loses His Cool At Haverhill Hustings, Audience Boos & Chants ‘Liar!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 30, 2019)

im starting to have doubts about johnsons competence you know


----------



## agricola (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Well the BBC seem to be going ahead with the Marr interview without having the Neil interview confirmed. Supposedly because of the London Bridge incident.



That is absolutely risible.  Do they think he wouldn't have been on TV otherwise?


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

agricola said:


> That is absolutely risible.  Do they think he wouldn't have been on TV otherwise?


The BBC had said they would not let him appear on Marr if he did not agree to the Neil interview.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 30, 2019)

Now of course it's vitally important that he be given a chance to call Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser on TV as soon as possible.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 30, 2019)

Doubt that Johnson will get asked questions over this on Marr or with Neil though imo.

Tories criticised over police cuts in wake of London Bridge attack

e2a actually to be fair Neil would most probably be rigourous in his questioning which is why Johnson has evaded appearing in fornt of him.


----------



## agricola (Nov 30, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Now of course it's vitally important that he be given a chance to call Corbyn a terrorist sympathiser on TV as soon as possible.



Corbyn even opposes the hunting of whales, which would mean that if he seizes power that bloke with the narwhal tusk would have been completely unarmed.


----------



## agricola (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> The BBC had said they would not let him appear on Marr if he did not agree to the Neil interview.



I meant last night, all of today and most things tomorrow.


----------



## JimW (Nov 30, 2019)

agricola said:


> Corbyn even opposes the hunting of whales, which would mean that if he seizes power that bloke with the narwhal tusk would have been completely unarmed.


No doubt Red Jezza's plan _all along_


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Does it include not carrying out the democratic will of the people? (Many of which being low wage earners in insecure housing etc?).
> 
> Cheers.



I work as a part time postman (well below the average wage) and I voted leave.  However, my democratic wish was not for Johnson's dangerous and selfish dog's breakfast of a deal.  I take the same attitude to leaving the EU as I did to having a new combi-boiler fitted; I don't just want it done (an idiot's mantra if ever there was one)...I want it done properly/safely, I want it to be better than what I currently have.

Returning to 'The Making of the English Working Class'; have you read it and if so, how do you think it speaks to today's concerns?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I work as a part time postman (well below the average wage) and I voted leave.  However, my democratic wish was not for Johnson's dangerous and selfish dog's breakfast of a deal.  I take the same attitude to leaving the EU as I did to having a new combi-boiler fitted; I don't just want it done (an idiot's mantra if ever there was one)...I want it done properly/safely, I want it to be better than what I currently have.
> 
> Returning to 'The Making of the English Working Class'; have you read it and if so, how do you think it speaks to today's concerns?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


You know I've only just realised you had said the making of the english working class all along, now my not very good engels comment is completely fucked. Made a right mess of it. Cheers louis


----------



## treelover (Nov 30, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Not sure if this has been posted Election 2019: Labour pledges inquiry into seven years of DWP benefit deaths




Needs to be a bit longer than that, there was the case of the woman who laid down on the railway tracks and was killed, that was pre 2010.


----------



## xenon (Nov 30, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> im starting to have doubts about johnsons competence you know


Yeah but he's a wonderful oriter. Charming, sense of humour, charisma, able to reach out and talk to the common man. 






etc


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 30, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> You know I've only just realised you had said the making of the english working class all along, now my not very good engels comment is completely fucked. Made a right mess of it. Cheers louis



Thompson references Engels enough for complete fuckery to be avoided, so no real damage done. Although I am surprised that Marty didn't pick you up on it, what with his massive knowledge of 19th century English history.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cantsin (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Well the BBC seem to be going ahead with the Marr interview without having the Neil interview confirmed. Supposedly because of the London Bridge incident.




tend not to get over excited by Beeb stuff, it's never not been like this etc.... but this GE just feels different, it's one thing after another.

After the Neil vs Corbo massacre, someone pointed out on twitter it wld all be squared up when Neil get's hold of Bozza, and I thought I'd seen Rob Burley or some apparatchik or another say  along the lines of ' exactly, and the conspiracists will quiet down' etc .... I thought it was scheduled for the next night or sthn... bit f*cking amazed how this is panning out now tbh


----------



## ska invita (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I work as a part time postman (well below the average wage) and I voted leave.  However, my democratic wish was not for Johnson's dangerous and selfish dog's breakfast of a deal.  I take the same attitude to leaving the EU as I did to having a new combi-boiler fitted; I don't just want it done (an idiot's mantra if ever there was one)...I want it done properly/safely, I want it to be better than what I currently have.


Is the way Brexit is being implemented so far different from how you expected it to be when you voted for it?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 30, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Is the way Brexit is being implemented so far different from how you expected it to be when you voted for it?



Yes. I thought that was clear from what I wrote.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 30, 2019)

Andrew Neill has done well out of this election. Anyone watching abroad would think he was the most heavyweight political interviewer of all time given the situation we're in.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Yes. I thought that was clear from what I wrote.


Yeah that was the impression i got but didnt want to presume. It surprises me because I'm having the exact opposite experience: everything that is happening so far is exactly what was to be expected: deportation day for eu citizens looms closer, the implication of a points based immigrations date has been set, deals for sell off of the NHS to the US are progressing etc. This broadly was what it was only ever going to mean in practice when implemented by a triumphant right wing with wind in their sails. 

Im surprised that this reality doesnt match your earlier expectations. I'm curious what those expectations were, but maybe that's getting too much into a derail. I thought everyone expected this, but the leave argument was It'll be worth it in the long run


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Did your lib-dem vote pan out as expected btw?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Yeah that was the impression i got but didnt want to presume. It surprises me because I'm having the exact opposite experience: everything that is happening so far is exactly what was to be expected: deportation day for eu citizens looms closer, the implication of a points based immigrations date has been set, deals for sell off of the NHS to the US are progressing etc. This broadly was what it was only ever going to mean in practice when implemented by a triumphant right wing with wind in their sails.


Me too, with the caveat that it wasn't _immediately_ obvious that the tories would definitely go for hard brexit, so I didn't think what has happened was inevitable, merely likely.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 30, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Yeah that was the impression i got but didnt want to presume. It surprises me because I'm having the exact opposite experience: everything that is happening so far is exactly what was to be expected: deportation day for eu citizens looms closer, the implication of a points based immigrations date has been set, deals for sell off of the NHS to the US are progressing etc. This broadly was what it was only ever going to mean in practice when implemented by a triumphant right wing with wind in their sails.
> 
> Im surprised that this reality doesnt match your earlier expectations. I'm curious what those expectations were, but maybe that's getting too much into a derail. I thought everyone expected this, but the leave argument was It'll be worth it in the long run



I made one big mistake in underestimating not just the dominance of the hard right/pro-US brexiteers, but also their willingness/ability to actually do what they said. My second big mistake was in believing that the left (from old Labour social democrats leftwards) were capable of putting forward an effective pro-solidarity/mutual recognition, pro-working class, pro-European and anti-EU brexit.

I should've known better.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I made one big mistake in underestimating not just the dominance of the hard right/pro-US brexiteers, but also their willingness/ability to actually do what they said. My second big mistake was in believing that the left (from old Labour social democrats leftwards) were capable of putting forward an effective pro-solidarity/mutual recognition, pro-working class, pro-European and anti-EU brexit.
> 
> I should've known better.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Yeah, sounds about right.

I'm glad your able to acknowledge this lot, many leave voters aren't.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Returning to 'The Making of the English Working Class'; have you read it and if so, how do you think it speaks to today's concerns?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



I recently re-read this on holiday (I’m a party animal). The book is strikingly prescient. Thompson was writing about a proto-industrial working class being forced into industrial society. Time discipline, the disruption of customs and traditions, the introduction of surplus labour, smashing up of craft unions and mutual societies and other working class forms of organisation. A way of life forcibly ended

Fast forward to now and the industrial working class is now being forced into post-industrial society. The same attacks are occurring to condition it.

The book should be required reading for anyone who wants to understand the dynamic processes and how capital and power works


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 30, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> My second big mistake was in believing that the left (from old Labour social democrats leftwards) were capable of putting forward an effective pro-solidarity/mutual recognition, pro-working class, pro-European and anti-EU brexit.
> 
> I should've known better.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



It’s not too late still for this. Some of us are trying to do precisely that


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 30, 2019)

cantsin said:


> After the Neil vs Corbo massacre, someone pointed out on twitter it wld all be squared up when Neil get's hold of Bozza, and I thought I'd seen Rob Burley or some apparatchik or another say  along the lines of ' exactly, and the conspiracists will quiet down' etc .... I thought it was scheduled for the next night or sthn... bit f*cking amazed how this is panning out now tbh



I believe Corbyn only agreed to do the interview if Johnson was doing it too, and was (mis)led to believe this was happening. Whether deliberate by the BBC or not, it’s a bit shitty.

Usually this sort of stuff doesn’t have a lot of traction in the wider world, those interested enough in politics to bother watching have normally already picked a side. However, the tories are using clips of the interview in targeted Facebook adverts, some clips that have been dishonestly edited, so it does kind of matter.


----------



## bimble (Nov 30, 2019)

editor said:


>



Have avoided saying anything about the state of the whole antisemistism thing this year (aim to continue that way) but this video was maybe the worst of it so far- a shithead reaching for The Jews as cover as shelter / amunition, his audience seeing it for what it was and  - understandably  -howling derision at the mere mention of the subject.
The reaction totally justified in this video but have seen plenty of exasperated eyerolls elsewhere, where they shouldn't be,  this election a nightmare all round.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 30, 2019)

Hancock is a wanker of the highest order.

Anger as Hancock offers string of seven-year-old policies on institutional care


----------



## Humberto (Dec 1, 2019)

Did any one make a serious attempt to question the Tories about the plans to start privatising the NHS yet? You know, the ones that the leader of the Labour party revealed to the public?


----------



## chilango (Dec 1, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Did any one make a serious attempt to question the Tories about the plans to start privatising the NHS yet? You know, the ones that the leader of the Labour party revealed to the public?



You mean the ones revealed by the anti-Semitic leader of the anti-Semitic Labour Party? Those ones? Has he apologized for all that anti-Semitism yet?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> You mean the ones revealed by the anti-Semitic leader of the anti-Semitic Labour Party? Those ones? Has he apologized for all that anti-Semitism yet?



Jews or the NHS. Get off the fence etc


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 1, 2019)

I heard Corbyn was in the IRA and tried to shoot the Queen.


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

Marr (speaking about Khan):  he was released under serious conditions, what were they?
Johnson:  serious conditions
Marr:  what were they?
Johnson:  I am not getting in to that

edit:  then, strangely, he manages to tell Marr what some of the conditions were four minutes later


----------



## brogdale (Dec 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I heard Corbyn was in the IRA and tried to shoot the Queen.


There's worse...

Corbyn The Barbarian: Documenting the Brutality of a Monster.


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

Fair play to Marr, he has actually gone after him this morning.  If only he'd challenge this "Corbyn wants to dismantle MI5" fib that Johnson keeps coming out with (when he isn't mentioning Shami Chakrabarti's name).


----------



## Mattym (Dec 1, 2019)

'Andrew- I'm not going to hide it from you'.

Tosser!


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

"They'll cut VAT on sanitary products in NI... all the advantages of Brexit will be there"


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

"My great-granddad knew the Quran off by heart"


----------



## MrSki (Dec 1, 2019)

Article from the NYTimes on how fucked the election is.



> Pity British voters because they are being subjected to a barrage of distortion, dissembling and disinformation without precedent in the country’s history. Long sentimentalized as the home of “fair play,” Britain is now host to the virus of lies, deception and digital skulduggery that afflicts many other countries across the world.



Full article here.​


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 1, 2019)

How the fuck can they mix-up Wells with Wales, the useless twats?

Conservative General Election leaflet mistakes Wells for Wales



> Hundreds of leaflets have been sent out by the Conservative Party in Wells containing details about its manifesto for Wales.
> 
> The printing error meant that constituents received details of the party's plans for Wales - rather than the Somerset city.


----------



## JimW (Dec 1, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> How the fuck can they mix-up Wells with Wales, the useless twats?
> 
> Conservative General Election leaflet mistakes Wells for Wales


The Celtic reconquista begins.


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

JimW said:


> The Celtic reconquista begins.



P-Celtic, you mean.  Those Q-Celts will have to be pushed back beyond the wall.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 1, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> How the fuck can they mix-up Wells with Wales, the useless twats?


Because they speak like Kirsty Alsop.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2019)

Opinion | Britain’s Dirty Election


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 1, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Opinion | Britain’s Dirty Election





> *Britain’s Dirty Election*
> A serial liar. A campaign of online disinformation. The risk of foreign meddling. Sound familiar?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2019)

Revealed: Tory candidates issued with attack manuals on how to smear rivals


----------



## brogdale (Dec 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Revealed: Tory candidates issued with attack manuals on how to smear rivals


Loving that "Revealed"


----------



## gosub (Dec 1, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I heard Corbyn was in the IRA and tried to shoot the Queen.



That can't be true, aftersuch a blatent aggressively act, we would have to declared war o  Czechoslovacia


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2019)

Lib Dems suspend campaigner after apparent email forgery



> The Liberal Democrats have suspended a senior member of their campaign team just days before polling day, after an official apparently forged emails to support a legal threat against a journalist over an embarrassing story.
> 
> Jo Swinson’s party has been fighting the website openDemocracy for weeks over a little-noticed article published last month about the party allegedly selling voter data to the remain campaign for £100,000 during the EU referendum.
> 
> ...


----------



## Azrael (Dec 1, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Yeah that was the impression i got but didnt want to presume. It surprises me because I'm having the exact opposite experience: everything that is happening so far is exactly what was to be expected: deportation day for eu citizens looms closer, the implication of a points based immigrations date has been set, deals for sell off of the NHS to the US are progressing etc. This broadly was what it was only ever going to mean in practice when implemented by a triumphant right wing with wind in their sails. [...]


As someone who supported British secession from the E.U. way back when "Maastricht rebels" still meant something and "bastards" was particular to John Major's woes, I switched to Remain the second I saw who'd be heading up the Leave campaign, voted Remain, and have even turned out for two of the "People's vote" marches.

I still don't like the E.U., but no movement exists in the abstract. This particular manifestation of Brexit has been a proxy for Bannonism from the start. However much I dislike Jean Monnet's Grand Project, it pales to nothing next to my loathing of the authoritarian nationalism with which this putrid version of secession's bound at the hip.

If Brexit isn't stopped, I dread to think what the U.K. will metastasize into. All who oppose the toxic politics of blood and soil should be able to unite to put an end to it.


----------



## treelover (Dec 1, 2019)

Just been talking to a labour party worker, he is a lovely bloke, lots of empathy and class awareness, works for SY MP, i was telling him about how many carers just leave their job, just like that, he said ah, people can walk into a job now, crap low paid jobs, but jobs, i replied there is still officially over a milllion unemployed, there was a time post war that would have meant curtains for a govt, bit like the NEETS have been forgotten, I do think there are blind spots with the LP.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 1, 2019)

Oh FFS...another fucking telly debate...will they not leave us alone?


----------



## Santino (Dec 1, 2019)

treelover said:


> Just been talking to a labour party worker, he is a lovely bloke, lots of empathy and class awareness, works for SY MP, i was telling him about how many carers just leave their job, just like that, he said ah, people can walk into a job now, crap low paid jobs, but jobs, i replied there is still officially over a milllion unemployed, there was a time post war that would have meant curtains for a govt, bit like the NEETS have been forgotten, I do think there are blind spots with the LP.


Nurse, he's out of bed again.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Oh FFS...another fucking telly debate...will they not leave us alone?
> 
> View attachment 191597



Simple solution, just fucking ignore them.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

Santino said:


> Nurse, he's out of bed again.



Fuck off


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Oh FFS...another fucking telly debate...will they not leave us alone?
> 
> View attachment 191597


I've not seen any of the debates, I imagine they're emetic


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

In any case, the best bit of labour manifesto is the health/social care/disability elements


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

Santino said:


> Nurse, he's out of bed again.



The really shitty, moronic and parts of the left are at least clever enough to appear give a shit about people like treelover 

You oh so clever fuckers have no idea what’s going on in disability politics. The Canary do. 

Which is part of the reason why we’ve ended up with ‘is it the NHS or the Jews’.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

Anyway, there’s someone called James Leaver on the ITV debate. That is mildly amusing.


----------



## treelover (Dec 1, 2019)

Santino said:


> Nurse, he's out of bed again.



whats that about, don't shoot the messenger


----------



## teqniq (Dec 1, 2019)

Dunked in shit on the doorstep canvassing? I think he may well be rattled.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

treelover said:


> whats that about



You access/require care services. You’re scum.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 1, 2019)

Who is the Tory on this irredeemably bad ITV debate? And why is Burgon on for Labour?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Who is the Tory on this irredeemably bad ITV debate? And why is Burgon on for Labour?



Neither labour nor Tory leaders on.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

Tory geezer has been put up to do the Al-Sahaf/mark Regev slot before. Maybe Burgons on for the same reasons


----------



## brogdale (Dec 1, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Simple solution, just fucking ignore them.


Yep...radio on.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The really shitty, moronic and parts of the left are at least clever enough to appear give a shit about people like treelover
> 
> You oh so clever fuckers have no idea what’s going on in disability politics. The Canary do.
> 
> Which is part of the reason why we’ve ended up with ‘is it the NHS or the Jews’.



Funnily enough Richard ‘the Zionists are out to get you’ Burgon has been (or so I’m told) a very good ally of bereaved families in his shadow justice role. That (inquests) is one of the best arguments for voting labour


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

Green Party quoting Hillel. Always knew they were funded by Soros


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Who is the Tory on this irredeemably bad ITV debate? And why is Burgon on for Labour?



I think Johnson chickened it again, so Labour refused to put Corbyn up in his absence.


----------



## treelover (Dec 1, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Who is the Tory on this irredeemably bad ITV debate? And why is Burgon on for Labour?



Rishi Sunak, bit of an attack dog


----------



## Santino (Dec 1, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You access/require care services. You’re scum.


Nonsense.


----------



## treelover (Dec 1, 2019)

Election 2019: Labour pledges inquiry into seven years of DWP benefit deaths

So, what did you mean, Labour have, in the past, had blind spots on welfare, their policies are now fantastic, but they have raised it sooner, so has much of the left, tomorrrow, Disability News Service
are going to publish a 12,000 word investigation over five years, into the brutal UK welfare regime and the DWP, lets see how much traction it gets, people could get it trending, push the BBC to cover it, but will  they, they did for Windrush, and other travesties, why not this?


----------



## Azrael (Dec 1, 2019)

I cannot praise the prospect of an inquiry enough. Of all the government's many sins, the DWP's barbarities may be the worst, and the stain will be with Britain for decades. An inquiry is the least its many victims deserve (personally, I'd love to see some creative prosecutor make manslaughter charges stick).


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 1, 2019)

treelover said:


> Election 2019: Labour pledges inquiry into seven years of DWP benefit deaths
> 
> So, what did you mean, Labour have, in the past, had blind spots on welfare, their policies are now fantastic, but they have raised it sooner, so has much of the left, tomorrrow, Disability News Service
> are going to publish a 12,000 word investigation over five years, into the brutal UK welfare regime and the DWP, lets see how much traction it gets, people could get it trending, push the BBC to cover it, but will  they, they did for Windrush, and other travesties, why not this?


Any time Labour say they're going to do something the answer is usually Wales.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

treelover said:


> Election 2019: Labour pledges inquiry into seven years of DWP benefit deaths
> 
> So, what did you mean,



My friends are dead. I want them to have justice. The labour/socialist/anarchist/whatever movement has been useless to my community. I want this to change. We’re being murdered mate. You know this. 



> people could get it trending, push the BBC to cover it, but will  they, they did for Windrush, and other travesties, why not this?



Because the labour movement has been crap. Let’s make a better one.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I cannot praise the prospect of an inquiry enough. Of all the government's many sins, the DWP's barbarities may be the worst, and the stain will be with Britain for decades. An inquiry is the least its many victims deserve (personally, I'd love to see some creative prosecutor make manslaughter charges stick).



 Barbara Keeley is excellent. Good thing Skwarkbox don’t know she’s in LFI. 

Crafty Zionist fuckers eh


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 1, 2019)

When I was in hospital recently I found out that one of my friends died three years ago in a secure unit. He committed suicide by cutting his wrists.

He was in a place where he should have been safe; where he didn’t deserve to be; where he was abused by those who should have been caring for him.

He deserved better.

Fuck off with your “nurse he’s out of bed again”.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 2, 2019)

Good twitter thread on MPs earnings


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Good twitter thread on MPs earnings
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 191636



de pfeffel johnson really is a fat pig


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> de pfeffel johnson really is a fat pig



And like all fat pigs, all the more hungry for being one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> And like all fat pigs, all the more hungry for being one.


he'll lose his appetite when he's told why he's going to the south atlantic industrial zone


----------



## LDC (Dec 2, 2019)

Statement from Plan C on the whole thing. Ignore the terrible title, I thought it was reasonably good.

A hero lies in you: Plan C statement on the UK General Election


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Statement from Plan C on the whole thing. Ignore the terrible title, I thought it was reasonably good.
> 
> A hero lies in you: Plan C statement on the UK General Election


i thought it could be half the length and twice as good. but their hearts are in the right place.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought it could be half the length and twice as good. but their hearts are in the right place.


Thanks. I got half way through and gave up. (I’ve got flittybrain this morning).


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Thanks. I got half way through and gave up. (I’ve got flittybrain this morning).


in summary: don't believe the hype; politicians are bastards; we can build institutions outside the current political structure to win


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> in summary: don't believe the hype; politicians are bastards; we can build institutions outside the current political structure to win


They’re right about all that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> They’re right about all that.


i'm not denying they're right, but they take a lot of words to say it


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not denying they're right, but they take a lot of words to say it


Glad it’s not just me then.  I’m making a personal plea for pithy political polemic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Glad it’s not just me then.  I’m making a personal plea for pithy political polemic.


that's a ppppp we can all get behind


----------



## LDC (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not denying they're right, but they take a lot of words to say it



PhD-itis. A common affliction in Plan C.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> PhD-itis. A common affliction in Plan C.


there's nothing which says a phd has to be verbose.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 2, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Dunked in shit on the doorstep canvassing? I think he may well be rattled.
> 
> View attachment 191603


Serious point.
Numerous SM reports of vermin canvassers telling (especially old) folk that 'Corbyn will take yer house away'.
Needs watching.


----------



## chilango (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there's nothing which says a phd has to be verbose.


----------



## chilango (Dec 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Statement from Plan C on the whole thing. Ignore the terrible title, I thought it was reasonably good.
> 
> A hero lies in you: Plan C statement on the UK General Election



I thought it was ok. Especially as trying to reconcile those inside and outside Labour right now.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 2, 2019)

I didn't bother reading it tbh. Too long, too repetitive. An article for itself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Labour inches up on the Tories as lead drops to single figures
and so it begins


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

from that link


----------



## treelover (Dec 2, 2019)

I haven't for a while, but I now really think Labour can convince a lot of the labour brexit voters in their 'red wall', get Laura Pidcock, etc, out there, inform them how much better their lives will be,higher minimum wage, end of U/C, etc, good housing, it is possible.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought it could be half the length and twice as good. but their hearts are in the right place.



That'd be an accurate review of anything Plan C produces. Editing is a real job folks.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 2, 2019)

UKIP's election launch is going well. Allegedly this person (Patricia Mountain) is their interim leader, but I reckon it's just some woman who wandered into the studio by accident because she doesn't really seem to know a lot about UKIP.



General election: UKIP launch manifesto and claim members aren't 'seriously racist'

Around the 6:00 mark she is asked about Tommy Robinson and says their constitution won't let him join "because of his association with other racist parties".


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 2, 2019)

I saw that when it broadcast, total car crash, clueless 'leader' in charge of a dead party.


----------



## Santino (Dec 2, 2019)

She looks and sounds exactly as if she were a character performed by Catherine Tate.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 2, 2019)

This is inspired; almost performance art.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> from that link
> View attachment 191670


Is it a multiple-choice poll?


----------



## Argonia (Dec 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> UKIP's election launch is going well. Allegedly this person (Patricia Mountain) is their interim leader, but I reckon it's just some woman who wandered into the studio by accident because she doesn't really seem to know a lot about UKIP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




At what point do UKIP call it a day?


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is inspired; almost performance art.




Someone should go to one of his advice clinics and ask him whether trekking around his whole parish to film a propaganda video was worth the climate cost.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Is it a multiple-choice poll?


no nor is it publick. i have written to george osborne to complain.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 2, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Is it a multiple-choice poll?



Why do you ask that, when the results add up to 100%? 

ETA - Penny has dropped, after seeing PM's reply above.


----------



## Argonia (Dec 2, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Is it a multiple-choice poll?



There's no spunking cock either


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Argonia said:


> There's no spunking cock either


it's that i really laid into osborne for


----------



## teqniq (Dec 2, 2019)

I wonder how significant this is? Hopfully quite a lot.

'We've been robbed': how women hit by rise in pension age intend to vote


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 2, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I wonder how significant this is? Hopfully quite a lot.
> 
> 'We've been robbed': how women hit by rise in pension age intend to vote


I don't know how much it will change things overall, and I'm reflexively unsympathetic to the "oh I was happy with the Tories fucking everyone else until I got it too" position quoted many times there, but it _is_ important and it's aggravating (if entirely par for the course) that this basic issue has been dismissed so much. I mean it's only women isn't it, and _old_ women at that  So I hope it really bites them.


----------



## Hollis (Dec 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is inspired; almost performance art.




If only it lasted about 10 minutes longer..


----------



## teqniq (Dec 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't know how much it will change things overall, and I'm reflexively unsympathetic to the "oh I was happy with the Tories fucking everyone else until I got it too" position quoted many times there, but it _is_ important and it's aggravating (if entirely par for the course) that this basic issue has been dismissed so much. I mean it's only women isn't it, and _old_ women at that  So I hope it really bites them.


Yeah it rankles a bit that only now that they've been fucked over do they finally decide to switch their vote to Labour, still better late than never.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is inspired; almost performance art.




Brilliant. 'I am legend'! Everyone else is dead. There was a seventies film, can't remember the name.

eta Omega Man!


----------



## ska invita (Dec 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is inspired; almost performance art.



bloody hell, what is it with Torys and benches


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 2, 2019)

I just despair sometimes. Just saw a focus group on channel 4 where people described Boris Johnson as 'trustworthy, a strong leader, a loveable buffoon and who answers whatever questions he's asked.' These are former Labour voters who now intend to vote Tory. They further just regurgitated, word for word, the horse shit vote leave said about how leaving the EU will increase NHS funding. Are these people inhabiting a different dimension to me? Boris Johnson trustworthy who gives straight answers to questions? It's truly staggering.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 2, 2019)

Unbelievably stupid:



Particularly as many of the responses have pointed out:

MP received £165,000 from trade union

Open goal.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't know how much it will change things overall, and I'm reflexively unsympathetic to the "oh I was happy with the Tories fucking everyone else until I got it too" position quoted many times there, but it _is_ important and it's aggravating (if entirely par for the course) that this basic issue has been dismissed so much. I mean it's only women isn't it, and _old_ women at that  So I hope it really bites them.


Can but hope that a cohort of Tory voters will at last begin to grasp that the Conservative Party's not remotely interested in conserving anything but its grip in power. They've proved awfully stubborn over the decades, so not too hopeful, but perhaps this will finally do it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> This is inspired; almost performance art.




Is he trying to copy Rory the Tory?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 2, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I just despair sometimes. Just saw a focus group on channel 4 where people described Boris Johnson as 'trustworthy, a strong leader, a loveable buffoon and who answers whatever questions he's asked.' These are former Labour voters who now intend to vote Tory. They further just regurgitated, word for word, the horse shit vote leave said about how leaving the EU will increase NHS funding. Are these people inhabiting a different dimension to me? Boris Johnson trustworthy who gives straight answers to questions? It's truly staggering.


Possibly the most troubling aspect of the focus group responses was the near universal repetition of the internalised 'household economics' scepticism of any LP spending proposal...how can _we _afford it...where's the money coming from? An acceptance that _we_ can't afford any attempt to improve their own material circumstances. A hegemony reliant on economic illiteracy.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Possibly the most troubling aspect of the focus group responses was the near universal repetition of the internalised 'household economics' scepticism of any LP spending proposal...how can _we _afford it...where's the money coming from? An acceptance that _we_ can't afford any attempt to improve their own material circumstances. A hegemony reliant on economic illiteracy.



Yeah I thought that too... I kept shouting 'taxes! TAXES!' at the telly whenever they asked where the money was going to come from


----------



## brogdale (Dec 2, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah I thought that too... I kept shouting 'taxes! TAXES!' at the telly whenever they asked where the money was going to come from


Yes, and borrowing...but, of course, over the last 11 years, the cost-cutting agenda of the consolidator state has made any notion of national debt seem completely counterintuitive.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 2, 2019)

brogdale said:


> [...] A hegemony reliant on economic illiteracy.


Outstanding summary of the plague of modern politics.

It's a matter of extreme urgency that the electorate's educated about how a sovereign economy that issues fiat currency actually works. Whether out of a fear of being seen as paternalistic, or simply underestimation of the scale of the problem, this hasn't been done.

Labour would've boosted their chances enormously if they'd spent the last few years pushing this line at every opportunity, from snappy Twitter / Facebook vids to memorable soundbites repeated by front-benchers. It'll be a tragedy if such a bold manifesto fails because voters don't believe that things can get better.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 2, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Can but hope that a cohort of Tory voters will at last begin to grasp that the Conservative Party's not remotely interested in conserving anything but its grip in power. They've proved awfully stubborn over the decades, so not too hopeful, but perhaps this will finally do it.


I really don't understand some of the comments from the ones who are still voting Tory though - not on a "how can you vote Tory" or "you're only saying that as an excuse" basis, but on a "what are you even talking about" one. For instance:



> Labour’s pension offer will not persuade Davenport back to the party either because, she said. “The women who most need this money, who have to use food banks and can’t afford housing, heating and so on, will not see any of their compensation because the money given will be taken off of their benefits.”


What? Labour are going to lower benefits? How is that even in the Tory mythos - I thought they were all about taking money from hard working taxpayers to give to Benefit Street.


----------



## Des Kinvig (Dec 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I really don't understand some of the comments from the ones who are still voting Tory though - not on a "how can you vote Tory" or "you're only saying that as an excuse" basis, but on a "what are you even talking about" one. For instance:
> 
> 
> What? Labour are going to lower benefits? How is that even in the Tory mythos - I thought they were all about taking money from hard working taxpayers to give to Benefit Street.



I think what she is getting at is that the compo will take a poor person over the means test threshold for receiving certain benefits. Still a shit argument, though.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I really don't understand some of the comments from the ones who are still voting Tory though - not on a "how can you vote Tory" or "you're only saying that as an excuse" basis, but on a "what are you even talking about" one. For instance:
> 
> "Labour’s pension offer will not persuade Davenport back to the party either because, she said. 'The women who most need this money, who have to use food banks and can’t afford housing, heating and so on, will not see any of their compensation because the money given will be taken off of their benefits.' ”
> 
> What? Labour are going to lower benefits? How is that even in the Tory mythos - I thought they were all about taking money from hard working taxpayers to give to Benefit Street.


Why I place such store in the old adage that you can't reason people out of a position they haven't been reasoned into! They'll find any excuse to justify a decision rooted in emotive propaganda. (Some of which are so ingenious I'm reminded what a waste of talent I'm witnessing!) I've done exactly the same myself, and have to constantly check the impulse.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 2, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Why I place such store in the old adage that you can't reason people out of a position they haven't been reasoned into! They'll find any excuse to justify a decision rooted in emotive propaganda. (Some of which are so ingenious I'm reminded what a waste of talent I'm witnessing!) I've done exactly the same myself, and have to constantly check the impulse.


I at least like to know what the propaganda _is_. With the increasing targeting of advertising to specific demographic profiles, I'm starting to feel like there are whole sectors of the population who are basing decisions on messages I will never see unless someone leaks them, and I try to keep on top of the messaging going around on social. Just finding out what people who are of a different age to me are hearing is starting to be like infiltration.

This isn't accidental of course - it might have originated with advertising, but isolating groups is a very effective tactic for keeping people divided and unable to properly discuss anything since they don't share a common worldview.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 2, 2019)

Des Kinvig said:


> I think what she is getting at is that the compo will take a poor person over the means test threshold for receiving certain benefits. Still a shit argument, though.


I guess that would at least be coherent, even if it's ridiculous.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 2, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah I thought that too... I kept shouting 'taxes! TAXES!' at the telly whenever they asked where the money was going to come from



Billionaires taxes to be precise.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 2, 2019)

And, what if it actually does? Who will really give a fuck apart from some billionaires and their hangers-on?


----------



## Azrael (Dec 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I at least like to know what the propaganda _is_. With the increasing targeting of advertising to specific demographic profiles, I'm starting to feel like there are whole sectors of the population who are basing decisions on messages I will never see unless someone leaks them, and I try to keep on top of the messaging going around on social. Just finding out what people who are of a different age to me are hearing is starting to be like infiltration.
> 
> This isn't accidental of course - it might have originated with advertising, but isolating groups is a very effective tactic for keeping people divided and unable to properly discuss anything since they don't share a common worldview.


Exactly why, despite my being all for the maximum practical protection of speech under the law, I'm all for a ban (or at least severe regulation) of micro-targeting. Free speech is justified by testing opinions to destruction in the public square: but how can we counter propaganda whispered in corners? Drag it out into the light.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 2, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Exactly why, despite my being all for the maximum practical protection of speech under the law, I'm all for a ban (or at least severe regulation) of micro-targeting. Free speech is justified by testing opinions to destruction in the public square: but how can we counter propaganda whispered in corners? Drag it out into the light.


Or at least make it mandatory that it's all revealed publicly, along with who it's been targeted at. Unfortunately the modern advertising industry is completely based around the idea, and that's what funds the internet giants so they won't stop that, but at least if everyone could see what is going on there would be more chance to challenge it. In more aspects than elections too - for instance Facebook were (and undoubtedly still are) very happy to take illegal "racial steering" property ads.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 2, 2019)

They'd stop after a few execs got a natty new set of bracelets, but yes, public declaration's a vital first step. It's unhinged that this election was run without first passing comprehensive electoral reform to bring the net to book.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 2, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I just despair sometimes. Just saw a focus group on channel 4 where people described Boris Johnson as 'trustworthy, a strong leader, a loveable buffoon and who answers whatever questions he's asked.' These are former Labour voters who now intend to vote Tory. They further just regurgitated, word for word, the horse shit vote leave said about how leaving the EU will increase NHS funding. Are these people inhabiting a different dimension to me? Boris Johnson trustworthy who gives straight answers to questions? It's truly staggering.



In this really well-argued and well-reasoned article about Labour, John Harris instructs us not to blame the voters 

Very difficult not to , sometimes


----------



## oryx (Dec 2, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I just despair sometimes. Just saw a focus group on channel 4 where people described Boris Johnson as 'trustworthy, a strong leader, a loveable buffoon and who answers whatever questions he's asked.' These are former Labour voters who now intend to vote Tory. They further just regurgitated, word for word, the horse shit vote leave said about how leaving the EU will increase NHS funding. Are these people inhabiting a different dimension to me? Boris Johnson trustworthy who gives straight answers to questions? It's truly staggering.



I saw that too, and despaired.

Is there a plot by Channel 4 and the BBC to only air (at prime time) the views of middle-aged to elderly white people whenever they show something like this or do vox pops? Usually in leave-voting areas. I regularly watch the BBC and Channel 4 news between about 7 and 8.30 and it's all you seem to see.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 2, 2019)

Vox "Pops" should be banned 
C4 and BBC reporters deliberately pick the most conspicuously stupid people to highlight ....


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2019)

From the FT...
"British officials have urged Mr Trump not to intervene in the election campaign by endorsing Mr Johnson — partly because Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has cast the prime minister as being in the White House’s pocket, notably on a possible post-Brexit UK-US trade deal — but ministers know the president is highly unpredictable. “We’re watching his Twitter feed and waiting for the inevitable comments,” said one UK minister, referring to Mr Trump. “We’ve tried to make it clear to the White House that Trump shouldn’t say anything about Corbyn or Brexit, but he probably can’t help himself.”"

Downing Street has been careful to avoid opportunities for Mr Johnson and Mr Trump to be seen together during the Nato summit, which takes place on Wednesday. No UK-US press conference is currently arranged, nor has a bilateral meeting been confirmed between the two."

let us pray for a jetlagged Trump outburst


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 3, 2019)

The labour disability manifesto is out later. Be interesting to see the detail. Looks like will go some way to spelling out what they meant in 2017 with the ‘we will incorporate UNCRPD into Uk law’ pledge. 

Stuff about co-designing social security is good, and committing to working with DPOs will go down well with the the user-led groups.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The labour disability manifesto is out later. Be interesting to see the detail. Looks like will go some way to spelling out what they meant in 2017 with the ‘we will incorporate UNCRPD into Uk law’ pledge.
> 
> Stuff about co-designing social security is good, and committing to working with DPOs will go down well with the the user-led groups.



I speak too soon. Election 2019: Labour offers new rights and a UN convention pledge

NSUN upset that the labour manifesto won’t ‘end sectioning’. Daft fuckers


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 3, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yes, and borrowing...but, of course, over the last 11 years, the cost-cutting agenda of the consolidator state has made any notion of national debt seem completely counterintuitive.



Which is curious as national debt has ballooned under the tories.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 3, 2019)

William of Walworth said:


> Vox "Pops" should be banned
> C4 and BBC reporters deliberately pick the most conspicuously stupid people to highlight ....



And they're intrinsically weighted in favour of people with nothing better to do than roaming the high street on a wednesday lunchtime.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2019)

Leaked NHS document reveals plans to use cheaper staff to fill nurse vacancies


> Although the NHS document says there will be 45,000 more full-time equivalent staff, this figure includes 10,200 nursing associates (NAs). Nursing associates were introduced into the NHS this year and include staff who have completed a two-year course.


----------



## pesh (Dec 3, 2019)

Midsomer Norton


----------



## treelover (Dec 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The labour disability manifesto is out later. Be interesting to see the detail. Looks like will go some way to spelling out what they meant in 2017 with the ‘we will incorporate UNCRPD into Uk law’ pledge.
> 
> Stuff about co-designing social security is good, and committing to working with DPOs will go down well with the the user-led groups.



is it getting much coverage?, not seen anything on Sky, Derbyshire, etc, really are invisible.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2019)

treelover said:


> is it getting much coverage?, not seen anything on Sky, Derbyshire, etc, really are invisible.


Shocker


----------



## treelover (Dec 3, 2019)

General Election Complaints  | Contact the BBC

Apparently, lots of complaints that Johnson was given a hard time on Marr show, interruptions, bias, 

you couldn't make it up, i am not always convinced about media bias, but this election the media has been shocking, BBC, Sky

local media seems better.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 3, 2019)

Did anyone else see this?

Johnson "run out" of Salisbury:



It does seem too good to be true, but maybe a sign of things to come? I don't remember anything like this happening in any other UK election. No one was bothered one way or another about Major and his soapbox.


----------



## gosub (Dec 3, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which is curious as national debt has ballooned under the tories.



Rate of ballooning has fallen though (which is what they meant by tackling the deficit


----------



## imposs1904 (Dec 3, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Are Alan Moore fans ( who ever Alan Moore is) a big swing indicator ?



I seem to remember that some optimistic souls thought that Russell Brand was going to swing the 2015 election for Ed Miliband.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Did anyone else see this?
> 
> Johnson "run out" of Salisbury:
> 
> ...



no one wanted to see major's soapbox, everyone wanted to see his vaunted ability on the trapeze


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

imposs1904 said:


> I seem to remember that some optimistic souls thought that Russell Brand was going to swing the 2015 election for Ed Miliband.


but brand gifted it to cameron instead


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no one wanted to see major's soapbox, everyone wanted to see his vaunted ability on the trapeze


I think he saved the trapeze stuff for Edwina.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 3, 2019)

imposs1904 said:


> I seem to remember that some optimistic souls thought that Russell Brand was going to swing the 2015 election for Ed Miliband.


 
Anyone asking for proof British politics was broken in 2015 or earlier only had to be pointed towards Russell Brand.

A simpler time and I'm glad politics has only improved since he fucked off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> I think he saved the trapeze stuff for Edwina.


pass the mind bleach


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Did anyone else see this?
> 
> Johnson "run out" of Salisbury:
> 
> ...



I don't have a TV.  .. is there much of this being shown on telly? I get impression not


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> It does seem too good to be true, but maybe a sign of things to come? I don't remember anything like this happening in any other UK election. No one was bothered one way or another about Major and his soapbox.


Might not be all good news, though. Thatcher was properly hated by half the population. Didn't stop her winning elections. Major got a 'meh' reaction from most people, then lost in 97.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 3, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Are Alan Moore fans ( who ever Alan Moore is) a big swing indicator ?





imposs1904 said:


> I seem to remember that some optimistic souls thought that Russell Brand was going to swing the 2015 election for Ed Miliband.


Personally waiting on Chuck Dixon's endorsement.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 3, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Leaked NHS document reveals plans to use cheaper staff to fill nurse vacancies





treelover said:


> is it getting much coverage?, not seen anything on Sky, Derbyshire, etc, really are invisible.



In the mirror today What do the election manifestos mean for local government funding? -

Tories would cut vital social care services even more, new study finds


----------



## Smangus (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Did anyone else see this?
> 
> Johnson "run out" of Salisbury:
> 
> ...




I don't know much about Salisbury, sounds like it should be tory friendly , isthat right?


----------



## maomao (Dec 3, 2019)

Smangus said:


> I don't know much about Salisbury, sounds like it should be tory friendly , isthat right?


Tory John Glenn has a 17,000 majority. Only takes a few dozen people to run someone out of town.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 3, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Might not be all good news, though. Thatcher was properly hated by half the population. Didn't stop her winning elections. Major got a 'meh' reaction from most people, then lost in 97.


And didn't Michael Foot get rapturous welcomes whenever he appeared on the stump in 1983?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> And didn't Michael Foot get rapturous welcomes whenever he appeared on the stump in 1983?


Probably. Great manifesto, too. 

No 'Alliance' this time round, though.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 3, 2019)

maomao said:


> Tory John Glenn has a 17,000 majority. Only takes a few dozen people to run someone out of town.



Thanks, that's true but it doesn't look good, for him.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> In the mirror today What do the election manifestos mean for local government funding? -
> 
> Tories would cut vital social care services even more, new study finds



And the Graun Labour vows to end 'prejudice' faced by disabled people in UK


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 3, 2019)

Smangus said:


> Thanks, that's true but it doesn't look good, for him.


Glenn can go back to the spacefaring, at least.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Glenn can go back to the spacefaring, at least.


And being dead...


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 3, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And being dead...


"Ex-MP to be first corpse on Mars"


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 3, 2019)

Boris Johnson Will Face A Live TV Grilling From Phillip Schofield And Holly Willoughby

(not satire)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Boris Johnson Will Face A Live TV Grilling From Phillip Schofield And Holly Willoughby
> 
> (not satire)


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 3, 2019)




----------



## emanymton (Dec 3, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Boris Johnson Will Face A Live TV Grilling From Phillip Schofield And Holly Willoughby
> 
> (not satire)


To be fair they will probably give him a harder time than most BBC political journalists.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2019)

Is Swinson going to last till election day? If she does will she win her seat?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 3, 2019)

emanymton said:


> To be fair they will probably give him a harder time than most BBC political journalists.



Choco biscuits or ginger it's with your coffee? 

[Boris just sweats in terror]


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 3, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Is Swinson going to last till election day? If she does will she win her seat?



Election day will be Swinson's swansong


----------



## weepiper (Dec 3, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Is Swinson going to last till election day? If she does will she win her seat?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> Election day will be Swinson's swansong


More likely to be a tuneless wail


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 3, 2019)

The squeak of a dying squirrel.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> More likely to be a tuneless wail


Or a mute swan song


----------



## treelover (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Did anyone else see this?
> 
> Johnson "run out" of Salisbury:
> 
> ...




Sky News were just saying how welcome he was

But it did look like just one person


----------



## treelover (Dec 3, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And the Graun Labour vows to end 'prejudice' faced by disabled people in UK



Nothing in the Tory rags, or broadcast media.


----------



## treelover (Dec 3, 2019)

emanymton said:


> To be fair they will probably give him a harder time than most BBC political journalists.



They got Corbyn to apologise for A/S, sort of.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 3, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> Or a mute swan song


Of a fascist octopus


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Of a fascist octopus



.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Of a fascist octopus


With a garden no doubt


----------



## Spandex (Dec 3, 2019)

All this blather about the NHS is doing my head in. 'Not for sale' says Corbyn. 'I won't sell the NHS' say Johnson. 'I don't want it anyway' says Trump.

Is this some alternate reality where the NHS is a single public sector organisation and the argument is about it being sold wholesale to US businesses? You'd be forgiven for thinking so looking a the media the last week.

The NHS has been gradually yet continually nudged towards privatization for the past 30 years, by governments Conservative and Labour. There'd up uproar at a 'tell Sid' style sell off, so it hasn't happened. Instead marketisation has been marching steadily onwards'. Private firms have been handed £15 billion of NHS contracts over the past 5 years. The idea of 'free at the point of delivery has been gradually erroded: 'sorry, we don't syringe ears anymore, you'll have to pay £50 at a private clinic', 'sorry, we don't freeze off keratosis anymore, you'll have to pay £350 for that 10 second procedure'. 

Privatisation of the NHS needs reversing, not preventing. This needs shouting clearly and loudly, but Corbyn seems incapable of being clear and most of the media don't seem to want to cover this message anyway, preferring to present a simplistic 'not for sale/we won't sell it' argument that doesn't reflect the lived experience of normal people.

Sure a Johnson-Trump trade deal will be a disaster for the UK, but that's a different, if related, issue to NHS privatization.

Christ this country is so fucked.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 3, 2019)

weepiper said:


>




That would be brilliant. First because she’s no great asset to parliament obviously, but second because it’s the Lib Dems that have been banging on about running a ‘decapitation strategy’ (removing opposing parties’ senior leadership) at every election since 2005, and every time they’ve failed at it. For them to be the first victims of such an effect would be ironic beyond words.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 3, 2019)

Gerry1time said:


> That would be brilliant. First because she’s no great asset to parliament obviously, but second because it’s the Lib Dems that have been banging on about running a ‘decapitation strategy’ (removing opposing parties’ senior leadership) at every election since 2005, and every time they’ve failed at it. For them to be the first victims of such an effect would be ironic beyond words.


Johnson's seat isn't that safe either.  That would be funny.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 3, 2019)

first communication from tories / john redwood through the door today.  basic message seems to be that if we dare to vote limp-dem we'll get jeremy corbyn as PM and brexit might not happen.

limp dems have gone quiet - don't think i've had any crap from them this week (did reach three things a day a week or two back)

nothing from labour (who came second here the last couple of times round, despite the limp dems' dodgy graphs) yet


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 3, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> first communication from tories / john redwood through the door today.  basic message seems to be that if we dare to vote limp-dem we'll get jeremy corbyn as PM and brexit might not happen.
> 
> limp dems have gone quiet - don't think i've had any crap from them this week (did reach three things a day a week or two back)
> 
> nothing from labour (who came second here the last couple of times round, despite the limp dems' dodgy graphs) yet



I've had tory and Lib Dem stuff through the door.  The local tory mp is very, very quiet in his leaflet about the fact that he's a TORY.   very odd, and he is clearly very scared.


----------



## xenon (Dec 3, 2019)

Spandex said:


> All this blather about the NHS is doing my head in. 'Not for sale' says Corbyn. 'I won't sell the NHS' say Johnson. 'I don't want it anyway' says Trump.
> 
> Is this some alternate reality where the NHS is a single public sector organisation and the argument is about it being sold wholesale to US businesses? You'd be forgiven for thinking so looking a the media the last week.
> 
> ...



Good post. Allows the Tories the simple rebuttle of we have no plans to privatise the NHS. When one of the core things about those leaked documents is the NHS being screwed over by having to buy various medicines from US suppliers who's products have longer patents.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 3, 2019)

The Thatcherite 'household' analogy of economics is indeed shite. One place though where I think it does hold is in borrowing to renationalize essential services - much like getting a mortgage which is cheaper in the long term by avoiding having to pay extortionate rents to private profiteers who picked stuff up on the cheap in the first place.


----------



## toblerone3 (Dec 4, 2019)

Vintage new political Madness song.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 4, 2019)

We get loads of Lib Dem crap, because there are some passionate Lib Demmers (can you imagine?!) in the village.  Noticeably, they’ve dropped Swinson from the leaflets.  At first, it was all pictures of her and “Jo Swinson’s Lib Dem’s” and “Jo Swinson’s plans for Britain”.  They have now replaced her with rubbish photos of the celery in a jumper that is their candidate though.  They’ve even done a cut and paste so it now says “Paul Kennedy’s Lib Dem’s”.  They obviously have cottoned on to how shot she is.

incidentally, autocorrect keeps trying to change Swinson to Swindon.  Somehow, this seems right.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 4, 2019)

Starting to warm to the LibDems


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 4, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Starting to warm to the LibDems



Looks more like UKIP colours!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Starting to warm to the LibDems



The only way to warm to the lib dems is to enjoy a fire made from their dessicated corpses


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

fishfinger said:


> Looks more like UKIP colours!


Fucking lib dems even fuck up conspiraloon nonsense they invent


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

so diane abbott's son's been nicked and charged

Diane Abbott's son, 28, charged over alleged attack on police officers | Daily Mail Online


----------



## JimW (Dec 4, 2019)

Not all the family turned out bad then.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 4, 2019)

We've had several more Labour leaflets, a Plaid and a Tory mailshot.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 4, 2019)

Her entire justification for sending him to a private school was to keep him away from wrong'uns and out of trouble.
Clearly it hasn't worked perhaps she should ask for her money back


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Dec 4, 2019)

When's the next poll out?


----------



## Wilf (Dec 4, 2019)

JimW said:


> Not all the family turned out bad then.


----------



## andysays (Dec 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> so diane abbott's son's been nicked and charged
> View attachment 191858
> Diane Abbott's son, 28, charged over alleged attack on police officers | Daily Mail Online


Crime correspondent Richard Spillett


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 4, 2019)

Things that make you go "hmmmmm". . .


----------



## Humberto (Dec 4, 2019)

I think this deserves to be read.

This Is Why We Hate You: December Editorial


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I think this deserves to be read.
> 
> This Is Why We Hate You: December Editorial


for what reason does it deserve to be read?


----------



## Humberto (Dec 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> for what reason does it deserve to be read?



I think it makes some astute arguments regarding the importance of next thursday's General Election. Which is useful at the moment. e.g:



> Would it be possible, we wonder, in the manner of a ‘costing’, to calculate how many lives the Labour manifesto would likely save? From the policy to make Truvada available on the NHS, from ending austerity, from ending arms sales to Israel and Saudi Arabia? Can any previous political manifesto have promised survival for so many?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 4, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> for what reason does it deserve to be read?


I got part of the way through and gave up. I found it irritating.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I got part of the way through and gave up. I found it irritating.


it may offer some astute arguments but i didn't see anything of that character there myself.


----------



## killer b (Dec 4, 2019)

It does go on a bit, I got bored too. Is it Seymour? I've been finding his analysis pretty useful recently, but his polemic is a bit too pompous and long winded IMO.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 4, 2019)

Yeah I nearly used 'pompous'.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 4, 2019)

killer b said:


> It does go on a bit, I got bored too. *Is it Seymour? *I've been finding his analysis pretty useful recently, but his polemic is a bit too pompous and long winded IMO.


 
Yes, partly at least.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Yeah I nearly used 'pompous'.


it's a word which might be profitably used more often here


----------



## belboid (Dec 4, 2019)

killer b said:


> Is it Seymour?


look at that third paragraph, who else could it be?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 4, 2019)

belboid said:


> look at that third paragraph, who else could it be?


Perry Anderson.


----------



## rekil (Dec 4, 2019)

The 'Salvage editorial collective' needs an editor.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 4, 2019)

killer b said:


> It does go on a bit, I got bored too. Is it Seymour? I've been finding his analysis pretty useful recently, but his polemic is a bit too pompous and long winded IMO.


Seymour is a lot more succinct these days.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 4, 2019)

Purulent


----------



## ska invita (Dec 4, 2019)

The one time we could really have done with Trump opening his fat trap he keeps it shut. Annoying


----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Vintage new political Madness song.




sadly a fair few of Madness fans are going to vote Tory.

its a good song, campaign to get it to Number 1?


----------



## Supine (Dec 4, 2019)




----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2019)




----------



## rekil (Dec 4, 2019)

Madness played on top of the palace for her majesty's jubilee do bless er. Barson is a rancid beeleyite conspiraloon. A nutter who's who tagged here. 



Spoiler


----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

treelover said:


>



Why should I watch that video?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2019)

treelover said:


>



Why should I watch that video?


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 4, 2019)

copliker said:


> The 'Salvage editorial collective' needs an editor.


A camel is a horse designed by a committee.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 4, 2019)

first communication from labour today.

hardly mentions either the labour party (who have come second here the last couple of times) or the candidate's name

basically negative about the incumbent twunt of an MP (john redwood) about his 'two jobs' - as an MP advocating no deal, and as a fund manager advising people to move money out of the UK

while i can't argue with it, wonder if something slightly more positive would be better?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 4, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> A camel is a horse designed by a committee.


The Animals for the Desert Committee. They did a pretty good job there.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 4, 2019)

Horses are shit scared by camels apparently/or I just reckon.


----------



## Santino (Dec 4, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> first communication from labour today.
> 
> hardly mentions either the labour party (who have come second here the last couple of times) or the candidate's name
> 
> ...


Richest constituency in the country. I expect they only do a token campaign most of the time.


----------



## binka (Dec 4, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Horses are shit scared by camels apparently/or I just reckon.


Anyone who's played the Total War games knows this is definitely true


----------



## Humberto (Dec 4, 2019)

binka said:


> Anyone who's played the Total War games knows this is definitely true



That's it


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 4, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Horses are shit scared by camels apparently/or I just reckon.



It's the smell apparently.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 4, 2019)

Santino said:


> Richest constituency in the country. I expect they only do a token campaign most of the time.



variable

it's one of the top 50 safe tory seats

until a couple of elections ago, they used to be fairly token, and local party members were encouraged to help out canvassing in the reading seats (both marginal) but labour did come second the last couple of times...


----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2019)

Boris Johnson sets out plans for first 100 days if he wins election

If they get a large majority, the new right, ERG, etc, will be pushing for a lot more than that.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2019)

> Another former Labour minister has urged voters to back the Conservatives at next Thursday's general election in order to "stop" Jeremy Corbyn.
> 
> Ivan Lewis, who served in government under ex-prime ministers Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, resigned his Labour membership in December last year with an attack on Mr Corbyn's handling of antisemitism allegations.
> 
> ...



So, he was suspended by Labour & then resigned, decided to stand as an independent, and is now telling people to vote Tory. 

Is he going after Chuka Umunna's record for switching sides?


----------



## Azrael (Dec 5, 2019)

So he's to the right of Ken Clarke, Michael Heseltine and Dominic Grieve. Labour man, oh aye.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 5, 2019)

So that's now Ivan the Naughty, Gisela Stuart and Ian Austin who're advocating a Tory vote for Brexit good and hard (Ivan's given the nod to crashing out with no deal if necessary; Stuart thinks the Norway option previously backed by Farage and Banks is remain by another name). Stylistically, I like "Lexit" even less than "Brexit," but given the above, it's redundant.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 5, 2019)

Ivan is an absolute bellend with a grudge, alleged sex offender too, not sure that 'naughty' covers it. He's only standing so he gets paid £22k for losing.

(he's my MP and he is fucking useless, thank god we are getting rid)


----------



## Azrael (Dec 5, 2019)

"Naughty" doesn't begin to cover it, but have no wish to feed the worm's ego: it's so bloated I fear a Mr. Creosote situation.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 5, 2019)

Boris Johnson is about to destroy our democracy – just because he wants to get back at me | Gina Miller

Page 48
Immunity


----------



## Azrael (Dec 5, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Boris Johnson is about to destroy our democracy – just because he wants to get back at me | Gina Miller
> 
> Page 48
> Immunity


If, God forbid, Johnson gets his majority, I expect that the repellent dogma of parliamentary supremacy is about to become dramatically less popular amongst Remainers ... and in short order, the courts who foolishly invented it. A reminder never to allow expediency to drive you into supporting a doctrine that can be used against you.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 5, 2019)

Boris is proposing tax cuts amongst other new things, likely due to his lead in the polls reducing.

Boris Johnson to offer tax cut after Brexit — The Times and The Sunday Times


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Boris is proposing tax cuts amongst other new things, likely due to his lead in the polls reducing.
> 
> Boris Johnson to offer tax cut after Brexit — The Times and The Sunday Times



He's only talking about the increase in the threshold at which we start paying national insurance to £9,500 from April, a saving an average of £85 a year, and he announced that two weeks ago, before the polls started to narrow.


----------



## rekil (Dec 5, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Is it just me, or is the Chris Williamson image on the banner looking a lot like Williamson is wearing a Wehrmacht field cap last seen in the _Blitzkrieg _era?





LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Afrika Corps was totally my first thought. Although I think that might say more about me than him.





butchersapron said:


> Yes, it looks like something he he should be wearing late 41 - scouring the horizon with binoculars. With a shitty drawn on derby ram.


The 10th panzer division's logo was a ram. They were destroyed in north africa. 


bluescreen said:


> What's with the double L emphasis?


I think 'jackboots' is a reasonable deduction at this point.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 5, 2019)

what can Labour do now, with a week to go, that could potentially make a difference? i really hope they're doing a good job door-to-door in the marginals, because this is all going to be won and lost on a relatively small number of votes. now the manifesto boost has run its course i'm not sure what else can be done. the tories just need to sit still and shut up and are guaranteed around 40% of the vote. the less they say the better really. Labour have really got an uphill struggle here. and my feeling is there's a significant chunk of the Labour party (certainly the PLP if not the grassroots) who won't mind the result too much if it gets Corbyn out. "looking on the bright side" of another 5 years of Tory majority rule is not really possible though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

Flavour said:


> what can Labour do now, with a week to go, that could potentially make a difference?


cull tory voters


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Is it just me, or is the Chris Williamson image on the banner looking a lot like Williamson is wearing a Wehrmacht field cap last seen in the _Blitzkrieg _era?
> 
> Subliminal messaging?


by no means, here's a bundeswehr cap the same design

only i wouldn't myself wear one of those with the ill-placed target on the front.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2019)

Azrael said:


> If, God forbid, Johnson gets his majority, I expect that the repellent dogma of parliamentary supremacy is about to become dramatically less popular amongst Remainers ... and in short order, the courts who foolishly invented it. A reminder never to allow expediency to drive you into supporting a doctrine that can be used against you.


Not entirely sure what you mean by 'repellent dogma' here. In its most recent judgement, the Supreme Court was very clear about what it meant - the government is the government only through parliament. This seems very clear to me: and Miller is right that in the UK set-up, Parliament is 'the people'. Government very specifically is not 'the people' and it only governs with the consent of 'the people'. That's all 'parliamentary supremacy' means, and the tories may talk about changing it but it's not immediately obvious how they would do that. If Johnson gets his majority, he'll have no pressing need to change anything in any case - this will be last year's problem. The current set-up actually gives a government with a clear majority in Parliament a huge amount of power. Why would he change that?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2019)

General election: Three Brexit Party MEPs quit to back Conservatives



> *The group, including Jacob Rees-Mogg's sister, want Boris Johnson to stay on as prime minister and "get Brexit done".*
> 
> Annunziata Rees-Mogg - brother of cabinet minister Jacob - as well as Lance Forman and Lucy Harris are due to announce their decision later today.
> 
> They will urge voters to support the Tories on polling day in exactly one week's time to "get Brexit done".



No great surprise, I guess it could reduce the Brexit Party's vote share a little more.



> Nigel Farage, leader of the Brexit Party, said he was "disappointed" at the news.



I bet he's fucking furious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I bit he's fucking furious.


sadness in his eyes


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 5, 2019)

Unlike Mogg’s sister I want Brexit to stay on and get Boris Johnson done!


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 5, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Is it just me, or is the Chris Williamson image on the banner looking a lot like Williamson is wearing a Wehrmacht field cap last seen in the _Blitzkrieg _era?
> 
> Subliminal messaging?






This was subliminal.


----------



## treelover (Dec 5, 2019)

BBC debate tomorrow, they have given Johnson an easy time,Corbyn shouldn't, ask him about Darius Guppy, his comments over the years, but also push the welare state agenda, which is going down well, and yes, free broadband!


----------



## treelover (Dec 5, 2019)

> and my feeling is there's a significant chunk of the Labour party (certainly the PLP if not the grassroots) who won't mind the result too much if it gets Corbyn out.



Yes, plenty on guardian CIF, really shows their political trajectory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

treelover said:


> BBC debate tomorrow, they have given Johnson an easy time,Corbyn shouldn't, ask him about Darius Guppy, his comments over the years, but also push the welare state agenda, which is going down well, and yes, free broadband!


email jeremy corbyn with these points lest they not otherwise reach him corbynj@parliament.uk


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> email jeremy corbyn with these points lest they not otherwise reach him corbynj@parliament.uk


I’ve had a few off him in all fairness.
Asking for a quid or two.


----------



## GarveyLives (Dec 5, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> Beyond Brexit and Craft Beer culture (if only for a day or two):
> 
> Black and Asian people can change this election: it’s urgent that we register now
> 
> ...



Now:

'BAME' support for Corbyn much higher than overall electorate

Seen earlier today:







(Source: Twitter)​


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’ve had a few off him in all fairness.
> Asking for a quid or two.


from treelover?


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> from treelover?



It is Christmas.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2019)

treelover said:


> BBC debate tomorrow, they have given Johnson an easy time,Corbyn shouldn't, ask him about Darius Guppy, his comments over the years, but also push the welare state agenda, which is going down well, and yes, free broadband!



The Darius Guppy thing was dealt with years ago, the free broadband could be problematic, considering they originally announced the cost at £230m per year, but it went up to about £2bn pa in their funding document.

But, there's plenty of other stuff to attack on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Darius Guppy thing was dealt with years ago, the free broadband could be problematic, considering they originally announced the cost at £230m per year, but it went up to about £2bn pa in their funding document.
> 
> But, there's plenty of other stuff to attack on.


his utter inability to tell the truth for example


----------



## treelover (Dec 5, 2019)

Yes, lots!


----------



## treelover (Dec 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> his utter inability to tell the truth for example



is that having an impact, not on the vox pop, but than again?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

treelover said:


> is that having an impact, not on the vox pop, but than again?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 5, 2019)

Boris is going to win, with an increased working majority, and i feel like Im going to lose my fucking mind. Five fucking years with added getting Brexit done bullshit on top of everything else. My heart rate is going up already. Total despair


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 5, 2019)

People have been reading Johnson's novel for the first time ever (hopefully not paying for it) and apparently it includes a character who is, uh, a crooked big-nosed curly-haired tight-fisted sex pervert Jew.



Not going to make any difference though is it


----------



## maomao (Dec 5, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not going to make any difference though is it


If it was actually about prejudice the party full of racists would be the one with the problem.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2019)

He's written a novel??? Fuck. Add that to the ever-growing list of 'things Boris Johnson is crap at'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He's written a novel??? Fuck. Add that to the ever-growing list of 'things Boris Johnson is crap at'.


when next someone writes a biography of johnson they could do worse than title it pride and prejudice


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He's written a novel??? Fuck. Add that to the ever-growing list of 'things Boris Johnson is crap at'.


It's called "72 Virgins"


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 5, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's called "72 Virgins"



I thought you were taking the piss, but it is!

It got good reviews in the papers, including the Observer. 



> Johnson scores in his comic handling of those most sensitive issues…he succeeds in being charming and sincere…Boris Johnson has written a witty page-turner.' Observer


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2019)

Fuck me. I just looked it up. Not only is it still in print, it is currently selling very well.


----------



## maomao (Dec 5, 2019)

There was a bit of a fad for writing novels among Tory MPs during the Labour government. Even Dunked-in Shit wrote one. Everyone was surprised he could read let alone write.


----------



## iona (Dec 5, 2019)

Brexit Party candidate here (local news  websites are good for procrastination ) has written twelve books and describes his latest novel as "a feminist thriller".

I bet it's AMAZINGly bad


----------



## Azrael (Dec 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not entirely sure what you mean by 'repellent dogma' here. In its most recent judgement, the Supreme Court was very clear about what it meant - the government is the government only through parliament. This seems very clear to me: and Miller is right that in the UK set-up, Parliament is 'the people'. Government very specifically is not 'the people' and it only governs with the consent of 'the people'. That's all 'parliamentary supremacy' means, and the tories may talk about changing it but it's not immediately obvious how they would do that. If Johnson gets his majority, he'll have no pressing need to change anything in any case - this will be last year's problem. The current set-up actually gives a government with a clear majority in Parliament a huge amount of power. Why would he change that?


He wouldn't: but the courts may well do, especially if the Tories restrict the scope for judicial review, as was strongly hinted at on p.48 of their I-can't-believe-it's-not-a-manifesto (whoever did that either's got a sick sense of humour, or really needs to read up on Article 48 of the Weimar constitution).

Parliamentary supremacy's a repellent dogma 'cause it theoretically hands the legislature unchecked power to pass unjust laws. It's for good reason that most democracies place limits on what their parliaments can, and can't, do. If he does get a majority, to have any hope of stopping him, Johnson's opponents will soon be required to junk it.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 5, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Boris is going to win, with an increased working majority, and i feel like Im going to lose my fucking mind. Five fucking years with added getting Brexit done bullshit on top of everything else. My heart rate is going up already. Total despair


With a choice between a no-deal crash out and caving to every E.U. demand to cut a trade deal by December '20, the odds of him seeing out a full five year term would be ... variable.

His governing coalition's perilously unstable. The hard Brexiteers don't trust him anymore than the rest of us, and will turn on his govt. if he dashes their Singapore on Thames fantasies. And the wet ex-Remain Tories have all been promised that no-deal's a million-to-one against.

That's not getting started on the Russia report, revelations from across the Atlantic, and how Trump falling would hurt him. Even if he gets his majority, he'll be fighting to keep it on a daily basis.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 5, 2019)




----------



## MrSki (Dec 5, 2019)

Neil should just do a half hour of empty chairing & calling out all his lies if he doesn't agree.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2019)

I liked this bit:


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 5, 2019)

.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 5, 2019)

This getting fucking beyond now:


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2019)

Beyond what?


----------



## cantsin (Dec 5, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


>




good to see, but still not clear how Corbyn / Lab Press / PR HQ wld / cld have agreed to JC going up against Neil without guaranteed undertaking that Johnson wld be doing the same, and with a firm date attached - seems v unlikely scenario


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 5, 2019)

That Neil clip has been viewed 1.26 million times already. That’s quite impressive for the timespan.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 5, 2019)

It’s alright though, he can go on for the Neil interview now as he’s been told the questions they want to ask in advance, so some wonk can start focus grouping potential answers.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 5, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s alright though, he can go on for the Neil interview now as he’s been told the questions they want to ask in advance, so some wonk can start focus grouping potential answers.



That's exactly what I was thinking.


----------



## agricola (Dec 5, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s alright though, he can go on for the Neil interview now as he’s been told the questions they want to ask in advance, so some wonk can start focus grouping potential answers.



... and if it happens it will be during the last few days of the campaign, with a huge audience that is going to have very low expectations of Johnson.


----------



## tommers (Dec 5, 2019)

Like he didn't know what the questions would be.


----------



## killer b (Dec 5, 2019)

Yeah, you don't have to be a massive intellect to work out what he might ask - and there's not really any amount of preparation Johnson could do that will make it possible for him to answer them without looking like a shifty cunt, otherwise he'd already have worked out how to answer them the last hundred times he was asked. 

The question is, does there come a point where doing the interview damages him less than not doing the interview?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2019)

If he was going to do it, wasn't there something to be said for doing it as early as possible? Surely the later he leaves it, the fresher it will be in people's minds, and more impact it will have. If he does now agree to do it after basically being called out as subverting the democratic process, hopefully that will represent a big misjudgement on his part ever to have delayed it.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 5, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If he was going to do it, wasn't there something to be said for doing it as early as possible? Surely the later he leaves it, the fresher it will be in people's minds, and more impact it will have. If he does now agree to do it after basically being called out as subverting the democratic process, hopefully that will represent a big misjudgement on his part ever to have delayed it.


Postal votes account for about 20% of votes cast.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Postal votes account for about 20% of votes cast.


Yes good point


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 5, 2019)

The Tory social media strategy has involved sharing clips on Facebook of Labour figures being interviewed and fucking up, sometimes heavily edited to remove context (or in the case of the Starmer clip to add a pause that wasn’t there). 

By not doing interviews early on (or at all) they’re essentially stopping Labour responding in kind, it might be too late for any ‘gotchas’ to gain traction / wider circulation. So there is some logic in it. They know that a ‘bottler’ narrative won’t really get anywhere as they have most of the press on side.


----------



## treelover (Dec 5, 2019)

The focus group and interviews with working class ex labour voters are very worrying, they want a strong decisive leader, don't like Corbyn, nearly all of them,


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 5, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Perhaps they'll wheel out Richard 'eighth-wit' Burgon to explain it to us?


He's on newsnight now and his pronunciation of brexit is the worst I've heard. Breaagset.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 5, 2019)




----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 5, 2019)

Has the br-exit v br-eggsit thing been done on here? Irritates the fuck out of me, why do people do it


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 5, 2019)

I think any breggsiteers on here should own up and explain themselves


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 5, 2019)

They can’t, we’ve already nailed them up.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Has the br-exit v br-eggsit thing been done on here? Irritates the fuck out of me, why do people do it


its had a few mentions. I think bregg-sit is favoured by RP or RP adjacent accents. And people who emphasize and draw out their words too much in an attempt at gravitas.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> He's on newsnight now and his pronunciation of brexit is the worst I've heard. Breaagset.


Saw they'd lined up a load more vox popery and turned the telly off. I really have had enough of them.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 5, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s alright though, he can go on for the Neil interview now as he’s been told the questions they want to ask in advance, so some wonk can start focus grouping potential answers.



He won't do it until polls/focus groups tell him his position on it is substantially eroding his lead. It won't happen.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 5, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Saw they'd lined up a load more vox popery and turned the telly off. I really have had enough of them.


It was shite. Wark hammering Burgon on how large numbers of traditional labour voters feel divorced from labour, a perfectly valid line obv, but was again all focussed on labour while tory next to him (a PPC because tories refused to put up a minister) was completely left alone. This particular newsnight has gone in really heavy, all emphasis on labour, part of me wondering if a deliberate reaction to labour's complaint to DG but it's late and I could be talking shit


----------



## brogdale (Dec 5, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It was shite. Wark hammering Burgon on how large numbers of traditional labour voters feel divorced from labour, a perfectly valid line obv, but was again all focussed on labour while tory next to him (a PPC because tories refused to put up a minister) was completely left alone. This particular newsnight has gone in really heavy, all emphasis on labour, part of me wondering if a deliberate reaction to labour's complaint to DG but it's late and I could be talking shit


Polling convergence is worrying them.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 5, 2019)

A mate of mine got vox popped in Wakefield by Kirsty Wark today, I hope he gets included as working with vulnerable people has made them pretty passionate about austerity and stuff like that.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 5, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> A mate of mine got vox popped in Wakefield by Kirsty Wark today, I hope he gets included as working with vulnerable people has made them pretty passionate about austerity and stuff like that.


Was one fella who fits that bill, I'd say late 30s/early 40s, voting labour, said worked for a charity and austerity & housing main issues


----------



## Humberto (Dec 5, 2019)

Bend over: here comes Boris.

Johnson will fuck this country up because his mates and kin stand to gain by doing so. He is once, twice, three times a...  compulsive liar. His record is shameful if you ascribe to any human politics. What you've seen happen to the country since the 2010 election, Johnson likes. Look at his dad ffs. A clan of heartless buffoons. There is nothing safe, comforting or familiar about the status quo. If Corbyn is a 'risk', you damn well better be prepared to take that 'risk'. Since the Tories have not done anything except raise hell. And then lie about it.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 5, 2019)

I'll tell you one thing, if you think I've talked shite all my life; Boris johnson is the most insidious politition I have ever witnessed. So probably not that much of a 'buffoon'. He is the worst of the worst no doubt in my mind.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 6, 2019)

Jeremy Corbyn though. I bet he has rubbish trousers.

Boris' trousers ARE fabulous.

I reckon Jesus didn't have trousers

But corbyn's evil? What to do.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 6, 2019)

No you started a war: hahaha ease off big guy

no kids are starving: Hahah Britain is open for business

no your support base is racist: haha hahhaahh they don't belong like us lets be honest for once


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 6, 2019)

kebabking said:


> You mean the DWP that is (and always has been) a wholy government owned, controlled and operated government department - and therefore it's assets are, and always have been owned entirely by the state, and then promising to shut down any media that says anything you don't like?
> 
> Is there a village somewhere looking for it's idiot?



Surprised you got a job at nato without being able to parse that as the *impossible* proposal it is. that's the whole point you absolute tesco value piri piri sauce. labour cannot do a socialist campaign for anything, it is a capitalist party through and through. But then again, law students are some of the most intellectually mendacious grifters in existence. I'm sure you would know about that.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they are literally jizzing over the dwp?



yeah, cop sex. thought about trying to make a cut-up thing in windows video editor of cop romances in Turkish dramas. wonder if I can premier it at the ICA with a needlessly verbose prelude to set the scene. probably not.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 6, 2019)

dialectician said:


> Surprised you got a job at nato without being able to parse that as the *impossible* proposal it is. that's the whole point you absolute tesco value piri piri sauce. labour cannot do a socialist campaign for anything, it is a capitalist party through and through. But then again, law students are some of the most intellectually mendacious grifters in existence. I'm sure you would know about that.



Resend key, over....


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 6, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Postal votes account for about 20% of votes cast.



Was fretting about this yesterday; many postal votes are cast by old folk, we’re due a cold snap next week which could kill many of them off, yet their votes will still count. The hanging chads pale in the face of this scandal.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> Beyond what?


_Really?_


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> Beyond what?


The realms of credibility?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> That Neil clip has been viewed 1.26 million times already. That’s quite impressive for the timespan.


1.25m times by wonks


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Dec 6, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Resend key, over....



you might have to do that a good 15 million times to fill my gmail inbox. I'll wait. got all the time in the world. I'm boring, boring like that.

either way, if you're gonna confine me to a village of idiots, can you at least be so curteous as to give me a sample of your kingly kebab? Quite curious to taste it.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

teqniq said:


> _Really?_


Why would moving it give the tories an advantage? They don't just let random people from the area into the audience


----------



## teqniq (Dec 6, 2019)

You may well have answered your own question there.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

teqniq said:


> You may well have answered your own question there.


But they could put their thumb on the scale much more discreetly in Southampton. Why would they need to move it to pack the audience with Labour hostiles? I don't get it.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 6, 2019)

Surely the motive (if there is one) is to ensure a sympathetic tory audience? in any event it smacks to me of the BBC running scared and anxious to please.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Surely the motive (if there is one) is to ensure a sympathetic tory audience? in any event it smacks to me of the BBC running scared and anxious to please.


but why would they need to move it to ensure a sympathetic tory audience? They already choose who to let in.


----------



## chilango (Dec 6, 2019)

I wonder if they want to avoid the scenes of pro-Corbyn crowds outside the studio that saw before. I bet someone got a bollocking for that. Not just 'cos "Party bias" but because it undermines their role as the location of discourse.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 6, 2019)

The Sheffield one attracted mass crowds outside that were warm to Corbyn. It might not be the actual studio audience but the crowds outside. Johnson getting booed & Coorbyn getting cheered. Although it is not something the BBC would cover either way.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> but why would they need to move it to ensure a sympathetic tory audience? They already choose who to let in.



I guess it might look a little less obvious.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 6, 2019)

chilango seems to provide a better anwere that I could have.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

Seems like a lot of bother to go to for something no-one really cares about.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 6, 2019)

In case you did not see it, here is a clip from Sheffield.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

and that only The Canary would report anyway. And now they're no doubt reporting on this instead.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 6, 2019)

It might go some way to explainning the 'secret location' bit from the tweet i screenshotted.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 6, 2019)

Sally Ann Heart says disabled people should be paid less as 'they don't understand money' | Metro News

‘Work as a health outcome’. Wankers.


----------



## chilango (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> Seems like a lot of bother to go to for something no-one really cares about.



I bet some BBC management types care.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Good stuff


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

More good stuff 

A bad day for Farage as Brexit party MEPs realise they've been had | Nigel Farage | The Guardian


> Because Nigel’s unique talent is to destroy everything he creates. He craves power but is unable to delegate or share it. People who disagree with him are cast out and crushed. Like Trump and Boris, he is a political narcissist who can see no further than his own reflection.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 6, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Sally Ann Heart says disabled people should be paid less as 'they don't understand money' | Metro News
> 
> ‘Work as a health outcome’. Wankers.



Literally no clue whatsoever.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2019)

MrSki said:


> In case you did not see it, here is a clip from Sheffield.




Fucking hell. Evil people don't even want to hide how evil they secretly are but parade that quality with pride. They know they have similarly evil associates, aka Tories who will vote for them with relish.



MadeInBedlam said:


> Sally Ann Heart says disabled people should be paid less as 'they don't understand money' | Metro News
> 
> ‘Work as a health outcome’. Wankers.



Edit. Messed up the quoting. The evil ones are the Hastings and Rye Tories.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 6, 2019)

Shadow chancellor backs call for criminal investigation into Duncan Smith and Grayling


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Shadow chancellor backs call for criminal investigation into Duncan Smith and Grayling


Utter utter cunts 

Sadly they almost certainly won't face charges. Will most likely keep their jobs and definitely will sleep like babies at night.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Uxbridge hustings


----------



## existentialist (Dec 6, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> He's only talking about the increase in the threshold at which we start paying national insurance to £9,500 from April, a saving an average of £85 a year, and he announced that two weeks ago, before the polls started to narrow.


Oh, _facts_


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 192059 View attachment 192060
> 
> Uxbridge hustings


should be a game on 'i'm sorry i haven't a clue'


----------



## MrSki (Dec 6, 2019)

Corbyn has got his hands on another document relating to NI & post Brexit trade between NI & mainland.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## WouldBe (Dec 6, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> we’re due a cold snap next week which could kill many of them off,


Weather is looking fine now.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 6, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Weather is looking fine now.



Dropping in time for the big day though...


----------



## existentialist (Dec 6, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


>



How convenient that the format suddenly "got tired" in between every other leader and him 

Perhaps, if he hadn't dithered around for so long...


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 6, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Dropping in time for the big day though...
> 
> View attachment 192064


Up here it's warming up for Thursday with partial sun. 

(Lab stronghold that's swinging to Tory)


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 6, 2019)

Son of "things that make you go hmmm".


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

isn't that a joke?


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

sorry, I meant 'that's a joke'


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 6, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Son of "things that make you go hmmm".




I see you are unfamiliar with Ern's work.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 6, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I see you are unfamiliar with Ern's work.


Sandwiches are taking over the world - "curses, foiled again".


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

I'm pretty sure it is talent too fwiw.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 6, 2019)

EDIT - wrong clip, it's here:

Boris Johnson 'people of colour' subtitles prompt confusion


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

It's worth noting that when there was a similar what did he say?? issue with the leader of the Labour party a few months ago, the media hired an actual lip reader to try and prove he said what they thought he said, rather than say 'ok, fair cop'


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Not sure how C-4 got it wrong, it's very clear he said talent.



that's not the clip.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm pretty sure it is talent too fwiw.


Probably  we all know what he is thinking though #thoughtpolice


----------



## Santino (Dec 6, 2019)

By 'people of talent' he means well-educated white people anyway.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> that's not the clip.



Cheers, edited.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Hardly a shocker... 

Tories and LibDems under fire for £658,000 donations from tax haven-linked firms


> Since the election was called the Conservatives have accepted £567,000 from four companies with links to Luxembourg, Guernsey and the British Virgin Islands.
> 
> The Liberal Democrats accepted £75,000 from an investment fund manager whose parent company is registered to a post office box in the Cayman Islands and £16,000 from a property developer whose parent company is registered to the Isle of Man.


----------



## treelover (Dec 6, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Shadow chancellor backs call for criminal investigation into Duncan Smith and Grayling



McDonnell has been meeting campaigners on this for some time,I still don't think it will get the traction of say, Windrush, for a number of reasons, not least media interest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> McDonnell has been meeting campaigners on this for some time,I still don't think it will get the traction of say, Windrush, for a number of reasons, not least media interest.


it certainly won't with a defeatist attitude like that


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Hardly a shocker...
> 
> Tories and LibDems under fire for £658,000 donations from tax haven-linked firms


The Tories I can understand, they're probably going to win but why the LibDems? Are there people out there so daft that they not only believe Death of Squirrels can be PM but are prepared to drop £75k on it?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> The Tories I can understand, they're probably going to win but why the LibDems? Are there people out there so daft that they not only believe Death of Squirrels can be PM but are prepared to drop £75k on it?


Probably a tax write off.... 


Oh


Hang on


----------



## maomao (Dec 6, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> The Tories I can understand, they're probably going to win but why the LibDems? Are there people out there so daft that they not only believe Death of Squirrels can be PM but are prepared to drop £75k on it?


Tory donors chucking them money to spend in lib lab marginals? The Tories know which side the piss scum will pick in a hung parliament.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Boris Johnson may win the election. The rest of us will lose


> It would appear Johnson is looking for a mandate to put himself above the law. Fairness and decency have been abandoned by people who ought to know better. Johnson and his Tories may well win next week. But they will have won through deceit and bullying. In the long term, they will pay a price. So - sadly - will the rest of us.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## MickiQ (Dec 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> McDonnell has been meeting campaigners on this for some time,I still don't think it will get the traction of say, Windrush, for a number of reasons, not least media interest.


No matter how much some people might want it to this isn't going to happen, It would effectively be saying that Government ministers or any other government agent be it civil servant, copper whatever can act completely in accordance with the law yet still be accused of acting unlawfully. Scumbags that IDS and Grayling might be, the worse punishment they will ever face is being sent to the Opposition back benches.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> McDonnell has been meeting campaigners on this for some time,I still don't think it will get the traction of say, Windrush, for a number of reasons, not least media interest.



 I went to my local hustings this week. Asked if the panel agreed that government ministers should be persecuted for the human rights violations and needless deaths of disabled people caused by austerity. Got a round of applause (in a pretty safe Tory seat).


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 6, 2019)

Suggestion that Boris' "no-show" isn't the big problem some think it is, according to pollsters. C&P'ed from Guardian live election coverage:
_
"Opinion pollsters I’ve spoken to this morning are united in saying this row is a less serious problem for Mr Johnson than his opponents think. They offer three broad reasons.


First, people will view this row through the prism of their pre-existing support. Voters who dislike Mr Johnson think he is being cowardly. People who warm to him think it doesn’t matter. “It’s an issue at the margins,” said Ben Page, head of Ipsos MORI. “The people it excites are people who already don’t like him.”


Second, the fact that Mr Johnson is appearing in a BBC head-to-head debate with Mr Corbyn tonight helps neutralise the damage. “Back in the 2017 election campaign, Theresa May refused to debate head-on with Corbyn and that undermined her claim to be a strong leader,” said Marcus Roberts, a former Labour strategist now at YouGov. “Many voters will see Johnson debating Corbyn this evening and wonder what the fuss is about Andrew Neil.”


A third factor that shouldn’t be ignored is that this is a row that helps the Tories. The party is 10 points ahead of Labour in the polls. By filling the airwaves with lots of headlines about what is fundamentally an issue of process, they stop Labour getting on the front foot on issues that really could affect the election, like the state of the National Health Service and public services. In other words, this row suits the Conservatives’ defensive election strategy."
_
Third point the most telling one IMO


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

What sort of country would tolerate child poverty rising to 40%? Maybe the UK | Polly Toynbee


> Since 2010, spending on children has fallen by 10%, making children the most likely to be poor – and the old the least: contrary to what Boris Johnson told Andrew Marr last weekend, child poverty is rising sharply on current government plans, to nearly 40% by 2022.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 6, 2019)

treelover said:


> McDonnell has been meeting campaigners on this for some time,I still don't think it will get the traction of say, Windrush, for a number of reasons, not least media interest.



What’s the plan then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> What sort of country would tolerate child poverty rising to 40%? Maybe the UK | Polly Toynbee








as in the 1830s so in 2020


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What’s the plan then?


no one tells treelover things like that


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Imagine being so hated that the police tell you not to be out in public and STILL trying to be Prime Minister.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Imagine being so hated that the police tell you not to be out in public and STILL trying to be Prime Minister.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Boris Johnson cancels speech after five protesters turn up


> Boris Johnson has cancelled a speech to members of the public in Rochester after a small number of protesters turned up. The prime minister was due to give a stump address to Tory supporters near the Ye Arrow pub in the Kent town.
> 
> A small number of protesters – which _The Independent_ counted at five – also arrived holding signs which read “Tories out”, “Austerity killed over 130,000, the blood is on your hands” and “No to racism, no to Boris Johnson”.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Maybe the police could not cope with 5 people after the cuts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Boris Johnson cancels speech after five protesters turn up


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Imagine being so hated that the police tell you not to be out in public and STILL trying to be Prime Minister.



I look at the endless polls saying how everyone hates Corbyn and loves Johnson, and then I look at every time the two of them have been out this election, Corbyn always being surrounded by people who are happy to see him and Johnson by people who want to tell him what a shit he is, and I think "there seems to be a mismatch somewhere".


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 6, 2019)

I've wondered about that too, but get the impression it's just that Corbyn fans/Johnson haters are just more demonstrably active, while those who will eventually vote Tory are more likely to just stay at home until election day. Ultimately, crosses in boxes count more than crowds at appearances.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I've wondered about that too, but get the impression it's just that Corbyn fans/Johnson haters are just more demonstrably active, while those who will eventually vote Tory are more likely to just stay at home until election day. Ultimately, crosses in boxes count more than crowds at appearances.


The shit state of our post Thatcher country and FPTP elections


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 6, 2019)

I don't think there's that much enthusiasm about Johnson at all tbh - all that 'haha I saw him on Have I Got News For You, what a ledge' stuff is mostly long gone. I'd say even most Tory voters think he's a shitty lying cunt (although they might express it more politely). The issue is that a lot of them think he's a shitty lying cunt who's essentially on their side, enough to vote for him at least.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 6, 2019)

I used "just" three times in one sentence.

I have decided I am not fit for public office and hereby withdraw my candidacy.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 6, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I don't think there's that much enthusiasm about Johnson at all tbh - all that 'haha I saw him on Have I Got News For You, what a ledge' stuff is mostly long gone. I'd say even most Tory voters think he's a shitty lying cunt (although they might express it more politely). The issue is that a lot of them think he's a shitty lying cunt who's essentially on their side, enough to vote for him at least.


Exactly. They don't have to love him, only be willing to vote Tory.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Exactly. They don't have to love him, only be willing to vote Tory.


He will be dumped by the party soon and the next cunt will be smarmed into power 
Tory voters won't care as long as they can dodge taxes and send their kids to private schools


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## weltweit (Dec 6, 2019)

Anyone got a link to af Neil empty chairing Johnson?

Eta found it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I've wondered about that too, but get the impression it's just that Corbyn fans/Johnson haters are just more demonstrably active, while those who will eventually vote Tory are more likely to just stay at home until election day. Ultimately, crosses in boxes count more than crowds at appearances.


True that both can theoretically be correct (though it's another thing that makes me sceptical about polling methodology) but even if so, not being able to distinguish between someone whose fans are really enthusiastic and enemies apparently not so bothered, vs someone whose fans are not so bothered but whose enemies really despise him, is missing something important. It's not the only thing people vote on, plus enthusiastic fans or haters are more likely to take other action than tick a box.


----------



## elbows (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I look at the endless polls saying how everyone hates Corbyn and loves Johnson, and then I look at every time the two of them have been out this election, Corbyn always being surrounded by people who are happy to see him and Johnson by people who want to tell him what a shit he is, and I think "there seems to be a mismatch somewhere".



As per my recent post on the bbc thread, Laura came up with some framing to 'explain' part of that - its Labour party members who are happy to see Corbyn, not people. People want to shake the Johnson.

#1145


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

elbows said:


> As per my recent post on the bbc thread, Laura came up with some framing to 'explain' part of that - its Labour party members who are happy to see Corbyn, not people. People want to shake the Johnson.
> 
> #1145


Much as I would be impressed if Labour could manage the logistics required to pack streets and hospitals and schools around the country with party members on a rapid basis, I have a feeling there may be a simpler explanation.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 6, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I've wondered about that too, but get the impression it's just that Corbyn fans/Johnson haters are just more demonstrably active, while those who will eventually vote Tory are more likely to just stay at home until election day. Ultimately, crosses in boxes count more than crowds at appearances.


Exactly.  My workplace is stuffed with people that are rather apathetic/a bit embarrassed by Johnson, but boy do they hate Corbyn.  You’re not going to see them bothering to go to events, though.  They’ll just quietly vote Tory.

I don’t say that as a criticism of Corbyn, by the way.  If he was liked by these people, he’d be doing something wrong.  They liked Blair, but that’s as far as they would be willing to go.


----------



## chilango (Dec 6, 2019)

Tory voters aren't voting for Johnson, they're voting for their wallets. 

They'll turn out in crowds for that, y'know like the John Lewis sale.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

The failures that let Joseph McCann out of prison

Tough on crime


----------



## elbows (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Much as I would be impressed if Labour could manage the logistics required to pack streets and hospitals and schools around the country with party members on a rapid basis, I have a feeling there may be a simpler explanation.



Are there any surviving BBC reports from 1945 on how terribly well received that Mr Churchill was on the campaign trail?


----------



## agricola (Dec 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Exactly.  My workplace is stuffed with people that are rather apathetic/a bit embarrassed by Johnson, but boy do they hate Corbyn.  You’re not going to see them bothering to go to events, though.  They’ll just quietly vote Tory.
> 
> I don’t say that as a criticism of Corbyn, by the way.  If he was liked by these people, he’d be doing something wrong.  They liked Blair, but that’s as far as they would be willing to go.



TBF it is amazing how much of that hatred of Corbyn is a reflex; point out something like reduced rail season ticket costs if Labour win and the effect is akin to switching a light back on.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Exactly.  My workplace is stuffed with people that are rather apathetic/a bit embarrassed by Johnson, but boy do they hate Corbyn.  You’re not going to see them bothering to go to events, though.  They’ll just quietly vote Tory.
> 
> I don’t say that as a criticism of Corbyn, by the way.  If he was liked by these people, he’d be doing something wrong.  They liked Blair, but that’s as far as they would be willing to go.


Thing is, the post-Corbyn LP will have to get smarter at dealing with the shit-storm of negativity thrown at his leadership. One thing's for certain, having tasted this blood, the Johnson regime will not drop this strategy however far to the right the LP jumps next.


----------



## [62] (Dec 6, 2019)

My totally anecdotal bollocks contribution for the afternoon based on a chat at work and quite a good overheard debate in the pub afterwards is that Corbyn really is utterly toxic. Genuinely surprised me.

I've never been keen on him for his lack of leadership and dismal handling of the anti-semitism complaints, but heard at least three people I'd always taken as natural Labour voters saying they couldn't face voting for him. One I might say was more easily swayed by the press, but the other two are not daft.

Beginning to understand why our Labour MP (not a Corbyn fan either) is taking nothing for granted.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

A cunt calling out a cunt


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2019)

How did we end up here? _Andrew Neill_ the towering intellectual colossus of the age? Kinell.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Exactly.  My workplace is stuffed with people that are rather apathetic/a bit embarrassed by Johnson, but boy do they hate Corbyn.  You’re not going to see them bothering to go to events, though.  They’ll just quietly vote Tory.
> 
> I don’t say that as a criticism of Corbyn, by the way.  If he was liked by these people, he’d be doing something wrong.  They liked Blair, but that’s as far as they would be willing to go.


It's the Berlusconi-isation of British politics. Loads of Italians were embarrassed by having such an obviously corrupt, loathsome, racist, lying, criminal buffoon as their prime minister, but at least some of those embarrassed by him must also have voted for him.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How did we end up here? _Andrew Neill_ the towering intellectual colossus of the age? Kinell.


Indeed. Look at the toilet political party he is goading 
.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

I liked this thought provoking and entirely correct tweet.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Exactly.  My workplace is stuffed with people that are rather apathetic/a bit embarrassed by Johnson, but boy do they hate Corbyn.  You’re not going to see them bothering to go to events, though.  They’ll just quietly vote Tory.
> 
> I don’t say that as a criticism of Corbyn, by the way.  If he was liked by these people, he’d be doing something wrong.  They liked Blair, but that’s as far as they would be willing to go.


I do also encounter people who hate Corbyn but I've never been able to find out _why_ (well, explicitly, of course). Even in the case of, say, Tories who consistently hated Blair and Cameron because of "focus group politics" and "insincerity", somehow Corbyn - who even his worst enemies could not reasonably say was inconsistent or swayed by political fashion - still fails, and they won't even mention that aspect.

I mean it's not hard to understand that when people absolutely refuse to say why they dislike someone, it's probably because the reason is one they don't want to admit to the questioner. I'm probably not the best person to gather that information, as I make it pretty clear what I think, so it would be socially unacceptable for them in polite chat.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

The reasons people loathe corbyn are the things he's been vilified for in the press for the last 4 years. But _no-one tells me what to think._


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 6, 2019)

Had this through the letterbox today.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I do also encounter people who hate Corbyn but I've never been able to find out _why_ (well, explicitly, of course). Even in the case of, say, Tories who consistently hated Blair and Cameron because of "focus group politics" and "insincerity", somehow Corbyn - who even his worst enemies could not reasonably say was inconsistent or swayed by political fashion - still fails, and they won't even mention that aspect.
> 
> I mean it's not hard to understand that when people absolutely refuse to say why they dislike someone, it's probably because the reason is one they don't want to admit to the questioner. I'm probably not the best person to gather that information, as I make it pretty clear what I think, so it would be socially unacceptable for them in polite chat.


Oh, it’s clear why so many people of my workplace hate him.  (1) He plans to make them poorer, which is related to (2) he isn’t an unabashed supporter of completely unfettered free markets.  Like I say, he shouldn’t even be trying to appeal to these people.  They do represent a sizeable portion of the population, though.


----------



## maomao (Dec 6, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Had this through the letterbox today.
> 
> View attachment 192112


Did you have a good wank over it yet?


----------



## agricola (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I do also encounter people who hate Corbyn but I've never been able to find out _why_ (well, explicitly, of course). Even in the case of, say, Tories who consistently hated Blair and Cameron because of "focus group politics" and "insincerity", somehow Corbyn - who even his worst enemies could not reasonably say was inconsistent or swayed by political fashion - still fails, and they won't even mention that aspect.
> 
> I mean it's not hard to understand that when people absolutely refuse to say why they dislike someone, it's probably because the reason is one they don't want to admit to the questioner. I'm probably not the best person to gather that information, as I make it pretty clear what I think, so it would be socially unacceptable for them in polite chat.



I think a lot of it is that we've had decades of often contradictory arguments made in attempt to define what political leadership is, with the result that many people do not now understand it as a concept without an accompanying explanation of whether whatever is being talked about is good or bad.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Oh, it’s clear why so many people of my workplace hate him.  (1) He plans to make them poorer, which is related to (2) he isn’t an unabashed supporter of completely unfettered free markets.  Like I say, he shouldn’t even be trying to appeal to these people.  They do represent a sizeable portion of the population, though.


I also know, or can generally make a good guess at, why people who talk to me don't like him. The bit which I find interesting is that they won't say it to me, to the point where they're actually incomprehensible.


----------



## andysays (Dec 6, 2019)

maomao said:


> Did you have a good wank over it yet?


The image of Marty1 knocking one out over Farage is really not what I needed before I sit down for my tea


----------



## maomao (Dec 6, 2019)

andysays said:


> The image of Marty1 knocking one out over Farage is really not what I needed before I sit down for my tea


Sorry. Hope it's not chipolatas.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I also know, or can generally make a good guess at, why people who talk to me don't like him. The bit which I find interesting is that they won't say it to me, to the point where they're actually incomprehensible.


It’s because what he stands for is so fundamentally antithetical to their ideology, their core beliefs that it can’t even be explained — it’s axiomatic.  Somebody so heretical is just _evil_.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

agricola said:


> I think a lot of it is that we've had decades of often contradictory arguments made in attempt to define what political leadership is, with the result that many people do not now understand it as a concept without an accompanying explanation of whether whatever is being talked about is good or bad.


I don't know - people do talk about Corbyn and leadership but it always seems like it's just another incoherent excuse covering up for something else, particularly when they say he's a weak leader but also talk about how he's an authoritarian. I mean even quite close friends of mine here. (But given that they are close friends they'll also be more sensitive to my own opinions and self-censor based on that, rather than a random pub conversation where the person doesn't know who you are and is pissed anyway. I get more honesty with those.)


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> The reasons people loathe corbyn are the things he's been vilified for in the press for the last 4 years. But _no-one tells me what to think._


First day back in England last week and in a casual group conversation some bloke in a pub told me Corbyn was an IRA supporter . I asked him what proof he had and he said it was in ‘the paper ‘. This bloke is retired and on benefits . Went through Labours economic programme and he informed me ‘you can’t believe what you read in the papers ‘


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 6, 2019)

My middle daughter (Derby North) has had this which she gave to me, A nurse living with her (Irish) boyfriend she reckons that it couldn't have annoyed her more if they had set out to do so deliberately.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> It’s because what he stands for is so fundamentally antithetical to their ideology, their core beliefs that it can’t even be explained — it’s axiomatic.  Somebody so heretical is just _evil_.


There is certainly a strong case that even quite mild Corbyn-style social democracy is now literally inconceivable in the standard course of political dialogue - as in, people can't express it, it doesn't exist within that worldview, there's no way of talking about it. After several decades I have trouble myself. I find myself just assuming that, say, a nationalised system would have to include tendering to corporations for most of it.


----------



## elbows (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There is certainly a strong case that even quite mild Corbyn-style social democracy is now literally inconceivable in the standard course of political dialogue - as in, people can't express it, it doesn't exist within that worldview, there's no way of talking about it. After several decades I have trouble myself. I find myself just assuming that, say, a nationalised system would have to include tendering to corporations for most of it.



Its the ghost of TINA.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

elbows said:


> Its the ghost of TINA.


Part of the point has always been to adjust what people can conceive of. It works too.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There is certainly a strong case that even quite mild Corbyn-style social democracy is now literally inconceivable in the standard course of political dialogue - as in, people can't express it, it doesn't exist within that worldview, there's no way of talking about it. After several decades I have trouble myself. I find myself just assuming that, say, a nationalised system would have to include tendering to corporations for most of it.



for many people, yes, sadly. a crisis of imagination.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 6, 2019)

maomao said:


> Sorry. Hope it's not chipolatas.


Or a solitary cocktail sausage.


----------



## elbows (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Part of the point has always been to adjust what people can conceive of. It works too.



Yes. Its a strange time at the moment, as in some senses the hideously shrunken ground of what had become the mainstream 'acceptable spectrum of possibilities/policies' has been expanding again since the financial crisis. But there seems to be a large amount of resulting potential change on the ideological front that doesnt seem to have happened yet.

It was curious to me that besides the temporary 'outrage towards bankers', the one ideological concession that was made was that 'trickle down is dead/discredited'. That much they were prepared to admit, that myth they were willing to sacrifice. I thought they might try to come up with a replacement. Or they could have tried an austerity bargain, featuring some future carrot of something being done better/more fairly at the end of peoples long period of sacrifice. But they didnt even bother to pretend. The well for those forces may be empty, and this could mean more opportunities than are currently obvious with the ghost of There Is No Alternative still haunting the passageways.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 6, 2019)

That's certainly how I try to challenge people on the rare occasions I engage on social media; I'll say they're being "unimaginative" or "unambitious", tends to go down a bit better than "evil" or "a fucking idiot".


----------



## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> That's certainly how I try to challenge people on the rare occasions I engage on social media; I'll say they're being "unimaginative" or "unambitious", tends to go down a bit better than "evil" or "a fucking idiot".


I like to do that too, but tend to add “in your genes” for an extra explosion of outrage.


----------



## magneze (Dec 6, 2019)

Jeremy Corbyn won the toss. Good enough for me, can't we just go with that?


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 6, 2019)

oh the one nation drum is out. I've got a two mentions count, will he go higher


----------



## brogdale (Dec 6, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> oh the one nation drum is out


dragged out by the one notion 'leader'


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 6, 2019)

Tampons ffs


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the secretary of state for health and social care


----------



## brogdale (Dec 6, 2019)

What a particularly dull format


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

Do you think Johnson said to all the women unfortunate enough for him to sleep with him that they should get this done?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)




----------



## magneze (Dec 6, 2019)

Johnson looking uncomfortable and shifty when Corbyn talking. More please.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the secretary of state for health and social care



Some real galaxy brain stuff there.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 6, 2019)

Sanitary products ffs


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Vote Labour


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Do you think Johnson said to all the women unfortunate enough for him to sleep with him that they should get this done?



Oven ready you mean?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 6, 2019)

This is fucking rubbish isn't it

I mean the only reason I pay attention to these things is in the hope that Johnson makes a complete fool of himself, but he does that regularly and it doesn't matter so I really don't know what I'm expecting here


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I mean the only reason I pay attention to these things is in the hope that Johnson makes a complete fool of himself, but he does that regularly and it doesn't matter so I really don't know what I'm expecting here


I figure I'll hear about it on Twitter if anything like that happens, so spare myself the everything else.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

“Mr Corbyn is well intentioned” how patrician of you Mr Johnson...


----------



## marshall (Dec 6, 2019)

brogdale said:


> What a particularly dull format



Battle rap, that's what's needed...'headshot!'


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2019)

That was poor.
Like an arse kicking contest with two one legged men, presided over by the Mekon and watched and questioned by pre programmed androids.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 6, 2019)

Didn't watch it. Did anybody proper fuck up?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


>




Christ, there's more than one Jolyon out there?


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

Watching it now. God Johnson is killing it. Looks so much stronger, more decisive, more reassuring. Get Brexit done, strong economy, move Britain forward, one nation. Corbyn standing there indecisive about Brexit  Promising the world on a stick. Pure Bermuda Triangle stuff about the Tories selling the NHS.

This is fucking painful. I want Corbyn to win and have a chance. But as my 14yo is day here telling me, he is being  owned.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I do also encounter people who hate Corbyn but I've never been able to find out _why_ (well, explicitly, of course). Even in the case of, say, Tories who consistently hated Blair and Cameron because of "focus group politics" and "insincerity", somehow Corbyn - who even his worst enemies could not reasonably say was inconsistent or swayed by political fashion - still fails, and they won't even mention that aspect.
> 
> I mean it's not hard to understand that when people absolutely refuse to say why they dislike someone, it's probably because the reason is one they don't want to admit to the questioner. I'm probably not the best person to gather that information, as I make it pretty clear what I think, so it would be socially unacceptable for them in polite chat.


Standard attack line I’ve heard belched out over a pint or three is old Trot in a Lenin hat who hates his country, supports its enemies and wants to tank the economy. (Throw in a rant about open borders if their guard's really down.) Labour were wise to attack that _Newsnight_ backdrop, it's stuck like a limpet, but there's millions of voters who can still be reached.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

How the actual fuck does _Boris_- who even his OWN SIDE recognise as a bullshitter if not an outright liar- look like he has conviction. And Jeremy look weak and like he’s fabricating a bunch of scare mongering shit up. 

The irony that it’s the other way round


----------



## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> Watching it now. God Johnson is killing it. Looks so much stronger, more decisive, more reassuring. Get Brexit done, strong economy, move Britain forward, one nation. Corbyn standing there indecisive about Brexit  Promising the world on a stick. Pure Bermuda Triangle stuff about the Tories selling the NHS.
> 
> This is fucking painful. I want Corbyn to win and have a chance. But as my 14yo is day here telling me, he is being  owned.



nah no one won. It was a bbc debate. Ultimately means nothing to anyone only those wavering wanna be Lib Dem’s who might want to pick a side...

or they both lost only one losing more slowly than the other...

my one take was Johnson calling Corbyn out on the RA made Corbyn seem much much cooler.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

flypanam said:


> nah no one won. It was a bbc debate. Ultimately means nothing to anyone only those wavering wanna be Lib Dem’s who might want to pick a side...
> 
> or they both lost only one losing more slowly than the other...
> 
> my one take was Johnson calling Corbyn out on the RA made Corbyn seem much much cooler.


You have to be joking


----------



## Poot (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> How the actual fuck does _Boris_- who even his OWN SIDE recognise as a bullshitter if not an outright liar- look like he has conviction. And Jeremy look weak and like he’s fabricating a bunch of scare mongering shit up.
> 
> The irony that it’s the other way round


I think that's the difference between conviction and integrity. One is suited to soundbites and the other takes a little longer to be evident. Unfortunately people lose concentration quite quickly...


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> You have to be joking


the yougov snap poll is 52/48 (the cursed ratio), so _no-one won_ is about right.

(I didn't watch it)


----------



## belboid (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> Pure Bermuda Triangle stuff about the Tories selling the NHS.


ffs, you're actually quoting one of Johnson's lines


----------



## Azrael (Dec 6, 2019)

flypanam said:


> nah no one won. It was a bbc debate. Ultimately means nothing to anyone only those wavering wanna be Lib Dem’s who might want to pick a side...
> 
> or they both lost only one losing more slowly than the other...
> 
> my one take was Johnson calling Corbyn out on the RA made Corbyn seem much much cooler.


Find it impossible to stomach politicians affecting moral outrage over Corbyn's past associates in one breath then with the other begging for arms deals with this week's bloodsoaked despotism. If there's any politician with the moral authority to condemn him, they're several benches away from where the power lies.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

Poot said:


> I think that's the difference between conviction and integrity. One is suited to soundbites and the other takes a little longer to be evident. Unfortunately people lose concentration quite quickly...


It’s not just sound bites though. His entire argument has thrust. Feels positive and has economic assurance.

Corbyn keeps appealing about starving kids, and whilst the majority of people don’t want that, the fact is that if you believe that Labour will torpedo the economy then no one thinks that’ll help the weakest.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

killer b said:


> the yougov snap poll is 52/48 (the cursed ratio), so _no-one won_ is about right.
> 
> (I didn't watch it)


No I meant joking about the IRA sympathising making Corbyn look cool


----------



## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

It’s Corbyn a weakness that he hasn’t gone after billionaires and the cosy relationship with the Saudis more often and more vigorously.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

belboid said:


> ffs, you're actually quoting one of Johnson's lines


Intentionally. It was a great line. It’s a widely held belief that Labour are either exaggerating or fabricating the Tory intention of selling the NHS.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> No I meant joking about the IRA sympathising making Corbyn look cool


Nah not joking, I have in my time talked with, drank with, and lived beside volunteers.


----------



## belboid (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> Intentionally. It was a great line. It’s a widely held belief that Labour are either exaggerating or fabricating the Tory intention of selling the NHS.


it's also a widely held belief that he is bang on the fucking money.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 6, 2019)

Corbyn’s closing remarks didn’t include any comment on Brexit


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Nah not joking, I have in my time talked with, drank with, and lived beside volunteers.


Volunteers for what? How does your experience translate to the general public thinking IRA sympathising is cool?


----------



## magneze (Dec 6, 2019)

Johnson didn't look like he had any conviction or believed a word he said.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

Corbyn is well intentioned. 

And there you have it. Damned with faint praise.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

magneze said:


> Johnson didn't look like he had any conviction or believed a word he said.


Why’d you think he came over so bad?!! Cos he really DOES believe it. Just came over as weak. Feel gutted for him.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 6, 2019)

I know what it sounds like but I’m not from England, I’m from the border counties in Ireland. Interpretation is not support.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

magneze said:


> Johnson didn't look like he had any conviction or believed a word he said.


He looked like he deserved a conviction or two


----------



## weltweit (Dec 6, 2019)

Did Corbyn make any mileage out of the n Ireland customs lie?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> Intentionally. It was a great line. It’s a widely held belief that Labour are either exaggerating or fabricating the Tory intention of selling the NHS.


The last couple of times I've gone for tests, for an ultrasound examination and an endoscopy, I've been sent by my GP to private medical places paid for by the NHS. So the tories have form for this quiet privatisation.


----------



## magneze (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> Why’d you think he came over so bad?!! Cos he really DOES believe it. Just came over as weak. Feel gutted for him.


I'm confused. You're gutted for Johnson?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> Why’d you think he came over so bad?!! Cos he really DOES believe it. Just came over as weak. Feel gutted for him.


Eh?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 6, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the secretary of state for health and social care


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

magneze said:


> I'm confused. You're gutted for Johnson?


No for Corbyn


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 6, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Corbyn’s closing remarks didn’t include any comment on Brexit



Quite right too. Those nose-holders that will vote for him regardless if it stops their biggest issue in their world are in the bag... It's the northern leave lot who need their thought process redirected away from Brexit, and reminding what a socialist Govt could do. Probably his best feature of that debate. Like Edie, I was crying out for him to be a bit bantsier, and look smooth and in control. Boris bluster works because he floats above the seriousness. Corbyns worst display, against Neil, was so bad because he got flustered and too serious, and didn't have the mental capacity In the moment) to even end with a cheery smile and faux-thank Neil.

I say that as someone who wants him to win, and isn't put off by his lack of slick-ness (ofc)...But it's not me he needs to convince.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2019)

magneze said:


> I'm confused. You're gutted for Johnson?



Don't think so - Corbyn was I'm sure meant. 

I did hear someone say they'd seen on Facebook that it's true that the tories *aren't* selling off the NHS. They compared it to selling a car: they've not sold the car, they've just sold off the wing mirrors and gear stick and engine and wheels and ...


----------



## magneze (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> No for Corbyn


I wasn't talking about him.


----------



## Edie (Dec 6, 2019)

magneze said:


> I wasn't talking about him.


Shit, totally misread!


----------



## Supine (Dec 6, 2019)

My "get Brexit done" drinking game isn't going well. I'm constantly pissed.

Amazed to find out my mum is also tactically voting for the libs. As a hard left Labour party member, for 50+ years, it just goes to show how tactical voting really might come into play this season.


----------



## killer b (Dec 6, 2019)

I didn't and won't watch it, but the consensus seems to be a no-score draw, decent performance from both of them but ultimately a bit  boring, which is supported by the polling. Corbyn needed better than that if it was going to shift the dial (do these things ever shift the dial?)


----------



## kabbes (Dec 6, 2019)

Boris just comes across as a clueless wanker shouting the same utterly meaningless phrase over and again.  But it evidently works for him for 50% of the population.


----------



## magneze (Dec 6, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Boris just comes across as a clueless wanker shouting the same utterly meaningless phrase over and again.  But it evidently works for him for 50% of the population.


This. Each time he's off focus he looks nervously at Corbyn because he simply doesn't have any detail. Fucking chancer. If the polls are correct how the fuck are 43% of people voting for him?


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 6, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> It's the northern leave lot who need their thought process redirected away from Brexit, and reminding what a socialist Govt could do.



Yeah, those northeners, thick c*nts, why can’t they just forget about Brexit?


----------



## Azrael (Dec 6, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, those northeners, thick c*nts, why can’t they just forget about Brexit?


There's two groups for whom this particular Brexit makes sense: free market fanatics with misty dreams of undercutting the E.U. by ripping up what's left of our mixed economy; and nativists who'd pull up the drawbridge regardless of the economic cost. Anyone else, north or south, who wants to leave Brussels' political structures should be doing all they can to stop it, before it taints the concept of E.U. secession for good.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 6, 2019)

Azrael said:


> There's two groups for whom this particular Brexit makes sense: free market fanatics with misty dreams of undercutting the E.U. by ripping up what's left of our mixed economy; and nativists who'd pull up the drawbridge regardless of the economic cost. Anyone else, north or south, who wants to leave Brussels' political structures should be doing all they can to stop it, before it taints the concept of E.U. secession for good.


A third group would be  people in the tradition of Benn, Bob Crowe, Scargill etc


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2019)

Edie said:


> Corbyn is well intentioned.
> 
> And there you have it. Damned with faint praise.


I don't see that as faint praise at all. Corbyn is well-intentioned. Johnson isn't. That's that, no? Easy.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 6, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> A third group would be  people in the tradition of Benn, Bob Crowe, Scargill etc


This particular Brexit's alien to that tradition, which is why the Beast of Bolsover voted against Johnson's deal.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 6, 2019)

I know I'm stating the obvious, but Corbyn's style isn't going to change. He's not going to tear into Johnson or berate him. I kind of wished he would though. But then it's not on my shoulders come Friday morning.


----------



## B.I.G (Dec 6, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, those northeners, thick c*nts, why can’t they just forget about Brexit?



I am sure when their children are suffering it will be a great consolation that they dont have to listen to a foreign language in the park.


----------



## starfish (Dec 6, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> Tampons ffs


Or sanitary products. He keeps bringing them up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2019)

Azrael said:


> This particular Brexit's alien to that tradition, which is why the Beast of Bolsover voted against Johnson's deal.


Not exactly. Skinner hates the tories. He's not going betray his party to help the tories do a brexit.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not exactly. Skinner hates the tories. He's not going betray his party to help the tories do a brexit.


Of course. The two are bound together. His Twitter vid cited the withdrawal agreement's failure to protect workers' rights. He rightly saw that this Brexit was at-odds with his secessionist principles. Other pro-Brexit Labour MPs didn't care (or, in Laura Smith's bizarre case, wrote Twitter essays on the many splendid joys of Lexit, which was I'm sure fascinating and also bore no relation whatsoever to waving through Johnson's deal).


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2019)

I'm pretty sure i heard Boris Johnson uttering something about prostrating himself on the floor of the House of Commons or some such shit, Surprised nobody has mentioned it, unless I imagined it. I do remember thinking at the time his stance was in full on 'you're all plebs to me' mode


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 6, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Of course. The two are bound together. His Twitter vid cited the withdrawal agreement's failure to protect workers' rights. He rightly saw that this Brexit was at-odds with his secessionist principles. Other pro-Brexit Labour MPs didn't care (or, in Laura Smith's bizarre case, wrote Twitter essays on the many splendid joys of Lexit, which was I'm sure fascinating and also bore no relation whatsoever to waving through Johnson's deal).


Looking her up, Smith voted for Johnson's deal, you're right. A bizarre choice, and a really fucking shitty one.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2019)

philosophical said:


> I'm pretty sure i heard Boris Johnson uttering something about prostrating himself on the floor of the House of Commons or some such shit, Surprised nobody has mentioned it, unless I imagined it. I do remember thinking at the time his stance was in full on 'you're all plebs to me' mode



Sure it wasn't a ditch in the floor of the House of Commons?


----------



## Azrael (Dec 6, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Looking her up, Smith voted for Johnson's deal, you're right. A bizarre choice, and a really fucking shitty one.


Not only that, in 2018, she pointlessly resigned from the front bench to vote against an EEA amendment (already dead thanks to Labour's gutless decision to abstain, but that wasn't hardline enough for her). Then took to Twitter to lecture us on how it wasn't really Brexit, which would be news to the secessionists who've spent years advocating it.

Apparently she's a good constituency MP. Referendum's driven so many from reason.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 7, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Not only that, in 2018, she pointlessly resigned from the front bench to vote against an EEA amendment (already dead thanks to Labour's gutless decision to abstain, but that wasn't hardline enough for her). Then took to Twitter to lecture us on how it wasn't really Brexit, which would be news to the secessionists who've spent years advocating it.
> 
> Apparently she's a good constituency MP. Referendum's driven so many from reason.


Yes, your last bit is very true. I just read that about the EEA thing. It was a bizarre gesture, you're right. 

The idea that going back to something like the EEA (Uk was in EFTA before the EEC) isn't brexit will also be news to the likes of Norway or Iceland. They're really in the EU, it would appear, even though they don't know it. 

It actually pisses me right off when people claim certain forms of brexit 'aren't brexit'. As has been pointed out by some MPs, quite a few older people (and my parents fall into this category of leave voters) voted leave 'because we only voted originally to join a common market, not all this other stuff'. For such members of the saintly 17.4 million, that's exactly the brexit they presumably voted for.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 7, 2019)

Could be posted to the Brexit thread but pretty damning whatever or wherever:

British diplomat in US resigns, saying she can't 'peddle half-truths' on Brexit


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, your last bit is very true. I just read that about the EEA thing. It was a bizarre gesture, you're right.
> 
> The idea that going back to something like the EEA (Uk was in EFTA before the EEC) isn't brexit will also be news to the likes of Norway or Iceland. They're really in the EU, it would appear, even though they don't know it.
> 
> It actually pisses me right off when people claim certain forms of brexit 'aren't brexit'. As has been pointed out by some MPs, quite a few older people (and my parents fall into this category of leave voters) voted leave 'because we only voted originally to join a common market, not all this other stuff'. For such members of the saintly 17.4 million, that's exactly the brexit they presumably voted for.


The 1975 "No" campaign actually advocated EFTA membership! (Not surprisingly, as Britain helped found it.)

I too loathe the "not really Brexit" malarkey; but worse is being lectured by ex-Remainers about Real Brexit. I was advocating secession long before the word existed, and a good decade before the referendum. I'm sure there's a good reason to take lessons on the One True Brexit from a buncha weathervanes, and it may even arrive before another decade's passed.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Could be posted to the Brexit thread but pretty damning whatever or wherever:
> 
> British diplomat in US resigns, saying she can't 'peddle half-truths' on Brexit


Popped up there, too, and couldn't agree more.

Despite being a long-standing supporter of Britain seceding from the E.U., I forced myself to vote Remain 'cause Leave was manifestly being used as a proxy for Bannonism. But even if it hadn't been, just knew these muppets would make a bollocks of it.

Now they want to visit the same on the entire British constitution, which is why this election's uniquely dangerous.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 7, 2019)

Bannon, and what he represents (the far right) are the weeping sore in this shitshow.


----------



## JimW (Dec 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Could be posted to the Brexit thread but pretty damning whatever or wherever:
> 
> British diplomat in US resigns, saying she can't 'peddle half-truths' on Brexit


Rest of their career would have involved much of the same, what did they think diplomacy entailed?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 7, 2019)

Yeah i pretty much suppose so.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Bannon, and what he represents (the far right) are the weeping sore in this shitshow.


Is he ever. This conniving pustule couldn't give a good goddam about Britain or her national interest. He's just an agent of chaos, using the country I love as a testbed for his campaign strategies, unconcerned with who he hurts in the process. Any patriotic conservative would balk at being reduced to a means for his toxic ends; no wonder that the Tories, being as far from conservatism as it's possible to get, can't get enough.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 7, 2019)

JimW said:


> Rest of their career would have involved much of the same, what did they think diplomacy entailed?


This. "Socialists" making wankers like this or Rogers hero's FFS.


Edie said:


> Feels positive and has economic assurance.


What's that mean?


----------



## Edie (Dec 7, 2019)

This comment as a reaction to it sums it up tbh (not my comment):
“ I *wish Corbyn won with all my heart, but I think Boris did tonight’*
Just finished watching it. My strong sense was Corbyn was honest, spoke with an intimate sense of the issues, a lot of empathy for the average person – but was also a bit too complex/academic for many (sadly). He also sometimes focused on his comfort zone (homelessness etc.) but the fact is most people are not without a home, going to food banks etc. So my worry is, people will think nice guy, but he’s not what I need. He also sounded contrived on Brexit.

Boris just recited lots of simple but effective lies, but was a more assertive speaker, his voice literally sounds stronger than Corbyn’s. I’m afraid that, although I am probably more socialist radical than JC and wish he won with all my heart, I think Boris won tonight and will win at this rate. I don’t think Nick Robinson was that bad.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

Edie said:


> This comment as a reaction to it sums it up tbh (not my comment):
> “ I *wish Corbyn won with all my heart, but I think Boris did tonight’*
> Just finished watching it. My strong sense was Corbyn was honest, spoke with an intimate sense of the issues, a lot of empathy for the average person – but was also a bit too complex/academic for many (sadly). He also sometimes focused on his comfort zone (homelessness etc.) but the fact is most people are not without a home, going to food banks etc. So my worry is, people will think nice guy, but he’s not what I need. He also sounded contrived on Brexit.
> 
> Boris just recited lots of simple but effective lies, but was a more assertive speaker, his voice literally sounds stronger than Corbyn’s. I’m afraid that, although I am probably more socialist radical than JC and wish he won with all my heart, I think Boris won tonight and will win at this rate. I don’t think Nick Robinson was that bad.”


If we were going on strength of voice Brian blessed would have been pm for 40 years


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 7, 2019)

Azrael said:


> This particular Brexit's alien to that tradition, which is why the Beast of Bolsover voted against Johnson's deal.



We get your line. But it’s a strange one. Labour/the left has had ample opportunity (and at this point the opportunity to implement it if Labour win) to set out a plan for leaving directly counterposed to those of those on the right. It didn’t.

By all means rail against this version of leaving the EU. But let’s not pretend it wasn’t possible to compete in the realm of political ideas over what leaving could look like.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't see that as faint praise at all. Corbyn is well-intentioned. Johnson isn't. That's that, no? Easy.


No. People seem to prefer liars, bluster, banter and cuntishness over being calm, well intentioned and informed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

Badgers said:


> No. People seem to prefer liars, bluster, banter and cuntishness over being calm, well intentioned and informed.


the road to hell famously paved with good intentions


----------



## teqniq (Dec 7, 2019)

Hard to say that Johnson's intentions are good here, except maybe for a select few.


----------



## tommers (Dec 7, 2019)

Made me laugh a few times. 

Frankie Boyle’s election countdown: 'You’ll be praying they prorogue the next parliament'


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 7, 2019)

Jonathan Pie gives his opinion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Hard to say that Johnson's intentions are good here, except maybe for a select few.


they are good, good for nothing


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We get your line. But it’s a strange one. Labour m/the left has had ample opportunity (and at this point the opportunity to implement it if Labour win) to set out a plan for leaving directly counterposed to those of those on the right. It didn’t.
> 
> By all means rail against this version of leaving the EU. But let’s not pretend it wasn’t possible to compete in the realm of political ideas over what leaving could look like.


Sure, It was theoretically possible, but the referendum framed Brexit in such toxic terms that pivoting to a sensible future relationship would always be an uphill struggle. That's why I broke with the other "liberal Leavers" months before the referendum and voted to remain.

Labour tried to advocate a sensible deal, but since even the Labour left was cowed by the tsunami of xenophobia unleashed by Vote Leave's carnival of lies, their refusal to defend the single market alienated remain voters, making continuity Remain inevitable.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 7, 2019)

Don't you ever just shut up?


----------



## Edie (Dec 7, 2019)

Badgers said:


> No. People seem to prefer liars, bluster, banter and cuntishness over being calm, well intentioned and informed.


It’s not so much that as the widely recognised subtext of ‘well intentioned but useless’. ‘Nice chap but doesn’t have a clue’.

If you say someone’s well intentioned then what you mean is that they meant well but they fucked it up anyway.

Which is, essentially, what a large swarthe think about Corbyn. If they don’t think he’s a terrorist sympathiser, Marxist, or outright dangerous.

(Obviously there’s also a good chunk of people who think Corbyn is a principled man who wants to redress wealth inequality, end austerity, and inject huge amounts of cash into public services. But Boris wasn’t talking to them).


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 7, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Sure, It was theoretically possible, but the referendum framed Brexit in such toxic terms that pivoting to a sensible future relationship would always be an uphill struggle. That's why I broke with the other "liberal Leavers" months before the referendum and voted to remain.
> 
> Labour tried to advocate a sensible deal, but since even the Labour left was cowed by the tsunami of xenophobia unleashed by Vote Leave's carnival of lies, their refusal to defend the single market alienated remain voters, making continuity Remain inevitable.



No. Labour never tried to advocate anything. They abandoned the field to right wing leavers and liberal remainers.

Basic untruths - the EU is progressive, leaving the EU means leaving Europe, that workers rights can only be ‘protected’ by the EU, that freedom of movement is automatically progressive - were left unchallenged.

There was no attempt to explain the political economy of the single market. 

I could go on. 

The current deal is shit. But it’s creation is partly owned by Labour.


----------



## killer b (Dec 7, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Don't you ever just shut up?


A post for the ages


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. Labour never tried to advocate anything. They abandoned the field to right wing leavers and liberal remainers.
> 
> Basic untruths - the EU is progressive, leaving the EU means leaving Europe, that workers rights can only be ‘protected’ by the EU, that freedom of movement is automatically progressive - were left unchallenged.
> 
> ...


Labour's been pushing their "jobs first Brexit" for years, badly I agree, but how could anyone sell that dog's dinner well? Before 2019, Corbyn and the front bench criticised the single market from a left-wing POV, particularly state aid. It never gained traction 'cause it left both camps cold: secessionists were in thrall to Vote Leave's castles in the air; and it offered nothing to remainers. 

I've many criticisms of Labour -- with courage and skill, Norway may well have been politically viable -- but Vote Leave deserve the lion's share of the blame. They chose to win as they did, setting a direction of travel that's hijacked a nation.


----------



## Edie (Dec 7, 2019)

tommers said:


> Made me laugh a few times.
> 
> Frankie Boyle’s election countdown: 'You’ll be praying they prorogue the next parliament'


No one does insults better than Boyle 

Gove: looking like someone took all the flesh out of a serial killer’s drains and forced it into some brogues; like Davros fell out of his Dalek; like a rushed cartoon of a horny snail – is somehow not the worst person in cabinet, or even his own marriage.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 7, 2019)

Saw my MP handing out leaflets.

Laing is just as horrifically entitled looking in real life.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

Edie said:


> If you say someone’s well intentioned then what you mean is that they meant well but they fucked it up anyway.


Sad that people think like this.

Not sure if our species is becoming more stupid or just expect so little.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 7, 2019)

"The story of Britain in three polls" (Twitter)


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> "The story of Britain in three polls" (Twitter)


Well, if there's anything more prime ministerial than an out of touch liar I don't know what it is.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 7, 2019)

This is the thinking we're up against. They don't want trustworthy, they don't want in touch with the people, they want... Posho Twatty McGee


----------



## xenon (Dec 7, 2019)

A lot of people just like blustering blowhard posh types don’t they.  Pfft


----------



## moochedit (Dec 7, 2019)

4 letters from the tories in 3 days (2 of them on 1 day) and they just phoned me (i couldn't think of a clever reply so i just hung up on them ). They don't normally put this much effort in round here in coventry.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 7, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Labour's been pushing their "jobs first Brexit" for years, badly I agree, but how could anyone sell that dog's dinner well? Before 2019, Corbyn and the front bench criticised the single market from a left-wing POV, particularly state aid. It never gained traction 'cause it left both camps cold: secessionists were in thrall to Vote Leave's castles in the air; and it offered nothing to remainers.
> 
> I've many criticisms of Labour -- with courage and skill, Norway may well have been politically viable -- but Vote Leave deserve the lion's share of the blame. They chose to win as they did, setting a direction of travel that's hijacked a nation.



For a party avowedly committed to challenging power structures, inequality and the dominant economic thought and policy of the last 40 odd years you’d think there would be a strategy. A radical vision of a social democratic Britain. Free from the death grip of a single market that exists to facilitate the free movement of capital and to open markets for profit. You think there would be a post EU industrial strategy. There would be an analysis of how to build partnerships across the world using the knowledge economy. There could be a radial devolution and devolved power plan based around common demands with the European left. Solidarity with the Catalans, the Greeks, yes to a 2nd ref. An anti austerity beacon flashing across Europe.

What did we get instead? Keir Starmer. An ideological collapse into the yesterdays men behind the ‘People’s Vote’ campaign.

This is a Labour Brexit as much as the Tories. They’ve opened up the space for them in their accommodation and alliance with politically promiscuous middle class liberalism


----------



## Winot (Dec 7, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> This is the thinking we're up against. They don't want trustworthy, they don't want in touch with the people, they want... Posho Twatty McGee



I’ve read some quite good anecdotal reportage over the last few days and analysis of focus groups which suggests that there are a lot of people who will be voting for the Tories even though they’ve got no respect whatsoever for Johnson and think he’s a twatty posho liar. The ‘get Brexit done’ li(n)e seems to have been very successful.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 7, 2019)

moochedit said:


> 4 letters from the tories in 3 days (2 of them on 1 day) and they just phoned me (i couldn't think of a clever reply so i just hung up on them ). They don't normally put this much effort in round here in coventry.



It has gone weird around here, I've had the Royal Mail deliver the usual free ones for the Tories, Lab, LDs, Greens & the independent candidate - who's the former Green candidate, and is moaning that he was deselected because of ageism in the local Green Party.

Last GE, I got extras from Lab, LDs & Greens, delivered by their supporters. This time I've had 2 extras from the Tories, but nothing from any of the others, very odd.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 7, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It has gone weird around here, I've had the Royal Mail deliver the usual free ones for the Tories, Lab, LDs, Greens & the independent candidate - who's the former Green candidate, and is moaning that he was deselected because of ageism in the local Green Party.
> 
> Last GE, I got extras from Lab, LDs & Greens, delivered by their supporters. This time I've had 2 extras from the Tories, but nothing from any of the others, very odd.



I've not yet had anything from any other party yet.


----------



## chilango (Dec 7, 2019)

We've had 7 from Labour, 2 from the Tories and 1 each from the Lib Dems and Greens.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> For a party avowedly committed to challenging power structures, inequality and the dominant economic thought and policy of the last 40 odd years you’d think there would be a strategy. A radical vision of a social democratic Britain. Free from the death grip of a single market that exists to facilitate the free movement of capital and to open markets for profit. You think there would be a post EU industrial strategy. There would be an analysis of how to build partnerships across the world using the knowledge economy. There could be a radial devolution and devolved power plan based around common demands with the European left. Solidarity with the Catalans, the Greeks, yes to a 2nd ref. An anti austerity beacon flashing across Europe.
> 
> What did we get instead? Keir Starmer. An ideological collapse into the yesterdays men behind the ‘People’s Vote’ campaign.
> 
> This is a Labour Brexit as much as the Tories. They’ve opened up the space for them in their accommodation and alliance with politically promiscuous middle class liberalism


Even accepting (very much arguendo) your criticisms of the single market, reorienting a service-based economy back to industrialization -- about the only viable model of hard Brexit -- is the work of a decade or more, during which continued EEA-membership's essential to maintain European access for services. So even if Norway was just a stopgap, Labour would've had to make the case regardless.

That's not getting started on practical barriers such as a majority of Lab voters and overwhelming majority of Lab members being pro-E.U. We saw what happened to Lab's support when the leadership dragged their feet over a confirmatory referendum.

Above all, how do you repurpose a referendum used as a proxy for Bannonism and won with a cavalcade of xenophobia and lies to left-wing ends? This horror show of an election, with the Tories churning out the most hateful smears of E.U. citizens exercising their treaty rights, shows just how hard that is.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

Winot said:


> I’ve read some quite good anecdotal reportage over the last few days and analysis of focus groups which suggests that there are a lot of people who will be voting for the Tories even though they’ve got no respect whatsoever for Johnson and think he’s a twatty posho liar. The ‘get Brexit done’ li(n)e seems to have been very successful.


Despising the Tories and their campaign as I do, I readily admit it's a great line, just as "take back control" was a great line. Succinct, to the point, achieves cut-through. For some reason, Lab's message discipline's been much weaker than 2017, when "for the many, not the few" made an impression.

"Just make it stop" has achieved some organic cut-through, Lab could easily have deployed that or something similar.


----------



## chilango (Dec 7, 2019)

chilango said:


> We've had 7 from Labour, 2 from the Tories and 1 each from the Lib Dems and Greens.



...oh and the Christian People's Alliance one has just dropped through the letterbox.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Despising the Tories and their campaign as I do, I readily admit it's a great line, just as "take back control" was a great line. Succinct, to the point, achieves cut-through. For some reason, Lab's message discipline's been much weaker than 2017, when "for the many, not the few" made an impression.
> 
> "Just make it stop" has achieved some organic cut-through, Lab could easily have deployed that or something similar.


maybe the way that 'for the many, not the few' has been used for many, many years has undermined its impact.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...oh and the Christian People's Alliance has just dropped one through the letterbox.


a leaflet, i hope


----------



## maomao (Dec 7, 2019)

I've had one Tory one and nothing else. Get something from them every few months election or not. They're well organised round here. Labour candidate was standing around the High Street this morning with no one talking to her so I told her she had one vote and she agreed she was unlikely to win.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

had labour, green, tory. read the green one: bin. didn't read the tory one, straight to bin. can't remember if i read the labour one or not, but it's in the bin too.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 7, 2019)

Winot said:


> I’ve read some quite good anecdotal reportage over the last few days and analysis of focus groups which suggests that there are a lot of people who will be voting for the Tories even though they’ve got no respect whatsoever for Johnson and think he’s a twatty posho liar. The ‘get Brexit done’ li(n)e seems to have been very successful.



People are fucking bored of it that's why. It's just a constant stream of Brexit related shit and people want to get on with life.

God knows I feel the same.

Not voting Tory though. Ever.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 7, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> This is the thinking we're up against. They don't want trustworthy, they don't want in touch with the people, they want... Posho Twatty McGee


Remember: brexit was a protest vote. People were saying they'd had enough of out of touch london poshos running the country. They want an end to all that, and Boris Johnson is going to get the job done.


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 7, 2019)

Not had any leaflets from anyone round here.


----------



## treelover (Dec 7, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There is certainly a strong case that even quite mild Corbyn-style social democracy is now literally inconceivable in the standard course of political dialogue - as in, people can't express it, it doesn't exist within that worldview, there's no way of talking about it. After several decades I have trouble myself. I find myself just assuming that, say, a nationalised system would have to include tendering to corporations for most of it.





> In Mytholmroyd, Labour councillor Roisin Cavanagh has spotted something else to worry her leader. After a decade of austerity, the hard-up voters she canvasses “have lost the ability to believe that things can be different”. She recently met a woman who had lost her home thanks to the bedroom tax and now lived in a small flat. With no room to put up her daughter, she complained of feeling isolated. Asked what she made of the bedroom tax, the woman said simply: “It’s the system, isn’t it? That’s what it does to people like me.”
> 
> Corbyn still plays the crowds – but spirit of 2017 remains elusive




This is exactly what Aditya Chakrabortty in the Guardian is quoting a Labour Councillor as saying, the bastards seem to win however many cuts/failures are made.


----------



## treelover (Dec 7, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Standard attack line I’ve heard belched out over a pint or three is old Trot in a Lenin hat who hates his country, supports its enemies and wants to tank the economy. (Throw in a rant about open borders if their guard's really down.) Labour were wise to attack that _Newsnight_ backdrop, it's stuck like a limpet, but there's millions of voters who can still be reached.



hardly anyone watches Newsnight, it was the commotion afterwards that meant many milllions more saw it, Sky, etc.

Btw, there is a particuarly hideous meme of Corbyn, looking deformed, eveil, with hammer and sickle on it, doing the rounds, tbh, its redolent of Nazi propaganda, and may have been done by a neo-nazi one.


----------



## treelover (Dec 7, 2019)

flypanam said:


> nah no one won. It was a bbc debate. Ultimately means nothing to anyone only those wavering wanna be Lib Dem’s who might want to pick a side...
> 
> or they both lost only one losing more slowly than the other...
> 
> my one take was Johnson calling Corbyn out on the RA made Corbyn seem much much cooler.



Thats crazy, that will resonate with many many WC voters, especially ex military, Corbyn should have robustly responded.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 7, 2019)

Just noticed this in a BBC news article. Isn't Hamilton every liberals favourite musical?


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> had labour, green, tory. read the green one: bin. didn't read the tory one, straight to bin. can't remember if i read the labour one or not, but it's in the bin too.


I've still had sod all, I think with it being a safe tory seat no-one is wasting effort on trying to win votes that won't actually change anything. I haven't seen any Labour, Tory or Green signs even. I have seen 3 LibDem ones in the past 2 or 3 days including one that was rather forlornly lying in the hedge


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> I've still had sod all, I think with it being a safe tory seat no-one is wasting effort on trying to win votes that won't actually change anything. I haven't seen any Labour, Tory or Green signs even. I have seen 3 LibDem ones in the past 2 or 3 days including one that was rather forlornly lying in the hedge


as opposed to them lying on tv i suppose


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 7, 2019)

I've had labour (lots), tory (three), libdem & brexit party (two - one of libdem ones was handwritten envelope and letter designed to look like a mate wrote it, indicative of libdem view of public being fucking idiots). Nothing from plaid or greens. Have never had anything from greens but plaid is surprising.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I've had labour (lots), tory (three), libdem & brexit party (two - one of libdem ones was handwritten envelope and letter designed to look like a mate wrote it, indicative of libdem view of public being fucking idiots). Nothing from plaid or greens. Have never had anything from greens but plaid is surprising.


not had anything from plaid but i would consider voting for them if they stood a candidate in hackney


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> not had anything from plaid but i would consider voting for them if they stood a candidate in hackney


Honestly I wouldn't bother, they're about 70% libdem


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Honestly I wouldn't bother, they're about 70% libdem


ah we have our own problems with the golden shower


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 7, 2019)

I've had one from hollobone, filled with pictures of him in that hideous union jack jacket. This one:






disgusting




Also one from the labour bod clare pavitt, and that one from the 'independant' tory bloke


----------



## andysays (Dec 7, 2019)

We've just had a Conservative flyer, which is certainly optimistic of them here in Tottenham.

I was about to sit down and read it for the LOLs, possibly even post a few choice exerts here, but it appears my wife has already thrown out out in the re-cycling bin.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just noticed this in a BBC news article. Isn't Hamilton every liberals favourite musical?


ask lbj


----------



## Azrael (Dec 7, 2019)

treelover said:


> hardly anyone watches Newsnight, it was the commotion afterwards that meant many milllions more saw it, Sky, etc.
> 
> Btw, there is a particuarly hideous meme of Corbyn, looking deformed, eveil, with hammer and sickle on it, doing the rounds, tbh, its redolent of Nazi propaganda, and may have been done by a neo-nazi one.


Absolutely, Lab knew it'd go viral on social media. Oh for the days that _Newsnight_'s influence was confined to the occasional newspaper pickup and the 0.5% (or whatever it is) who put themselves through it each evening.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2019)

I also got a “local letter from concerned citizen” Lib Dem piece of bollocks.  “I’m not telling you how to vote but look at these FACTS about BREXIT and oh look the Tories and Labour aren’t going to help...”


----------



## kebabking (Dec 7, 2019)

One Tory leaflet, two Lab (not sure why they bother tbh..) and one LibDem.

I rather think they can't be arsed for this one.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2019)

Looks like a last minute bullshit blitz: 88% of Conservative ads on Facebook 'misleading'


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Looks like a last minute bullshit blitz: 88% of Conservative ads on Facebook 'misleading'


Surely 100%


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Surely 100%


The other 12% were just obvious bullshit perhaps, using no deception.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 7, 2019)

had a fake 'local newspaper' thing from the yellow vermin through the door yesterday.

at least this one doesn't try to look like one of the real local papers here (which may or may not have been a cock up on their part)


----------



## Sue (Dec 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> We've just had a Conservative flyer, which is certainly optimistic of them here in Tottenham.
> 
> I was about to sit down and read it for the LOLs, possibly even post a few choice exerts here, but it appears my wife has already thrown out out in the re-cycling bin.


They had an ad on a big advertising screen thing at Hackney Central last time which I also thought was a touch on the optimistic side...


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

Not even sure what thread this goes in 

WATCH: Embarrassing footage shows Rees-Mogg slag off PM before giving him support


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

Man with 6 months to live 'devastated' after DWP ask him to reapply for benefits


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 7, 2019)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 7, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Man with 6 months to live 'devastated' after DWP ask him to reapply for benefits



or to put it another way "you have a terminal condition but have not dropped dead quick enough so we want to re-assess your benefits"

bunch of cunts


----------



## gosub (Dec 7, 2019)

Russia involved in leak of papers saying NHS is for sale, says Reddit

Even more confused having read that,


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

gosub said:


> Russia involved in leak of papers saying NHS is for sale, says Reddit
> 
> Even more confused having read that,


Best that 'our government' release the reports ASAP if this sort of thing is happening.


----------



## gosub (Dec 7, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Best that 'our government' release the reports ASAP if this sort of thing is happening.



Which means what they'll actually do is carry on a dawn raid on Anne Soubry to ensure she hasn't got a sniper rifle 

Given a choice between the "well that makes sense" and what bat shit mental thing can we do"... The future is wibble


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Best that putin tell 'our government' to release the reports ASAP if this sort of thing is happening.


c4u


----------



## not a trot (Dec 7, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Man with 6 months to live 'devastated' after DWP ask him to reapply for benefits



That will gladden the heart of every fucking Tory.


----------



## gosub (Dec 7, 2019)

not a trot said:


> That will gladden the heart of every fucking Tory.



That's clearly untrue!








Tories don't have hearts.


----------



## killer b (Dec 7, 2019)

Incredible piece in The Sun this afternoon where they drew a map of the far left and it's links to Corbyn, all pulled together by some 'former' British intelligence officers. One problem is their sources - the sources they actually quoted - included erm antisemitic conspiracy sites and an organisation called 'Aryan Unity', as quickly pointed out by some people on twitter. The piece has since been taken down...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2019)

killer b said:


> Incredible piece in The Sun this afternoon where they drew a map of the far left and it's links to Corbyn, all pulled together by some 'former' British intelligence officers. One problem is their sources - the sources they actually quoted - included erm antisemitic conspiracy sites and an organisation called 'Aryan Unity', as quickly pointed out by some people on twitter. The piece has since been taken down...



there are no depths of stupidity or shitness to which the sun will not descend


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 7, 2019)

The Sun rises in the morning, spreading all it's shite around.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2019)

Just seen this Proper Tidy ...wtaf


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2019)

The loon graph looks amazing - somebody used it to connect Thomas Aquinas with Thomas the Tank Engine, in three steps.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 7, 2019)

Imagine actually citing the words “Aryan Unity” and it not ringing any alarm bells. Just the words are enough.

Don't buy the Sun. Don’t drive any traffic to its site. Don’t cause it to raise any advertising revenue.

Utter scum.

(Good work, btw, Fozzie Bear ).


----------



## Ground Elder (Dec 7, 2019)

A friend in Portsmouth reports that Conservative candidate Donna Jones declined to attend a climate crisis hustings and then trolled it by hiring a plane to fly past with a ' Let's Get Brexit Done' banner


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

Father of London Bridge attack victim calls Johnson a fraud | London Bridge terror attack 2019 | The Guardian


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

PM cancels second campaign outing in less than 24 hours amid protests


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 7, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Father of London Bridge attack victim calls Johnson a fraud | London Bridge terror attack 2019 | The Guardian


That reminds me I need to pop into the woods on my way home to get some bear shit for the garden


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2019)

WATCH: Tory candidate tells food bank users to 'get a payday loan'


----------



## iona (Dec 7, 2019)

Just been on a train with some people who were discussing internal politics and positions they'd previously held within Labour, then one answered their phone and said they'd just been out canvassing with the lib dems, encouraging people to vote tactically, and were going out with the greens in another constituency next week. This a new Brexit thing or has it always happened?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 7, 2019)

Well done, that restaurant


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Well done, that restaurant
> 
> View attachment 192211



I didn't make it past 'Dark Side of the Cauliflower'


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 7, 2019)

Oh. I've had a forest worth of libdem leaflets. All of them bullshit. 9 leaflets maybe. Now also had 2 tory ones.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 7, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I didn't make it past 'Dark Side of the Cauliflower'


The Rioja Reserva at £27 looks interesting. If Worthing goes Labour and Bolsover Tory then the world is definitely turning upside down.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 7, 2019)

teqniq said:


> Well done, that restaurant
> 
> View attachment 192211



The demographic in town has certainly changed, we had the first Labour councillor in 41 years elected to the borough council in 2017, and more in both 2018 & 2019 - now there's 10, out of 37.

But, that restaurant is in the West Worthing constituency, that includes some sizeable villages in Arun district, and there's no chance of Labour taking it, Peter Bottomley was re-elected in 2017 with 12,000 majority - and a 55.4% share of the vote, the highest since the constituency was created in 1997. 

They have a very slim chance in East Worthing and Shoreham, where Tim Loughton has a 5,000 majority & 48.9% vote share, but fairly unlikely TBH.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 7, 2019)

iona said:


> Just been on a train with some people who were discussing internal politics and positions they'd previously held within Labour, then one answered their phone and said they'd just been out canvassing with the lib dems, encouraging people to vote tactically, and were going out with the greens in another constituency next week. This a new Brexit thing or has it always happened?


Sound like labour liberals who wish it was still pre '15 and are really into the EU


----------



## iona (Dec 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Sound like labour liberals who wish it was still pre '15 and are really into the EU



Oh yeah they HATED Corbyn (and had no idea why people dislike Jo Swinson except maybe "the [her/LDs/idk?] trans position")

Was just wondering how usual it is to be out with different parties in different areas. I've never been a member of any political party or gone canvassing or been canvassed.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 7, 2019)

Do Tory voters;

Want the NHS to be dissolved? 
Not care about the NHS?
Not care much about the NHS? 
Are in denial that it will be fucked up by the Torys?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 7, 2019)

iona said:


> Oh yeah they HATED Corbyn (and had no idea why people dislike Jo Swinson except maybe "the [her/LDs/idk?] trans position")
> 
> Was just wondering how usual it is to be out with different parties in different areas. I've never been a member of any political party or gone canvassing or been canvassed.


Haha, yeah remain alliance type stuff I reckon


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 7, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Do Tory voters;
> 
> Want the NHS to be dissolved?
> Not care about the NHS?
> ...


One or more of the above, depending which Tory voter you ask.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 7, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Do Tory voters;
> 
> Want the NHS to be dissolved?
> Not care about the NHS?
> ...



"It won't happen to me" - most conservative voters.


----------



## xenon (Dec 7, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Do Tory voters;
> 
> Want the NHS to be dissolved?
> Not care about the NHS?
> ...



Far as I can tell it's
Labour, spending other people's money, wreckless with the economy.
Marxist extremeists.
Anti semite.
friends with terrorists.
Jhonson's not great but
"Get Brexit done."


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 7, 2019)

Dear Sally-Ann Hart, 

We are trainees at Little Gate Farm and we are writing about the article you shared and the comments you made at the hustings. We are adults with learning disabilities, and we want to share our opinions. 

We would like to extend an invitation to you to visit our farm in Beckley so that you can see the work training we do to get into paid employment. Sometimes people don’t realise the potential of people with learning disabilities, but Little Gate Farm is here in East Sussex to help them get paid jobs. 

What you get paid depends upon the work you put in. If the amount of work you put in amounts to minimum wage whether you have a learning disability or not, you should get minimum wage. ‘Minimum’ is in the name! Sometimes people with learning disabilities need work adjustments to achieve their best, sometimes we need more support to get into jobs, but we do deserve to get equal pay. 

We agree with parts of the article you shared – employment is important for health and mind. Having work gives us a quality of life and a sense of purpose. It helps us be more independent. After college you’re left adrift to float in the wind, and Little Gate gives us a way in which we can enter paid employment in a way which is comfortable for us. 

Some of us believe that if it became legal to pay any of us less than minimum wage, it could easily become more difficult for others to get full pay. 

This letter is just to increase general understanding of people with learning difficulties. It is not intended as an attack because we’re all learning all the time. This is why we would like you to come and see what we do. If you can’t come, we would like to hear your feedback about this letter, please. 

If you are interested in visiting and having lunch, or to send a reply, please contact the senior project leader Biff Mooney at biffmooney@littlegate.org.uk 

We are also including some information about how Little Gate helps us find jobs, and some quotes from trainees about our experiences. 

Thank you for your time.  

Yours sincerely, 

 The Little Gate Farm trainees

A letter to Sally Ann Hart — Little Gate


----------



## weepiper (Dec 7, 2019)

We've had two or three leaflets each from Labour, the Tories and the SNP. And at least eight from the Lib Dems. I don't know why they're bothering, I went to a hustings and I wouldn't vote the Lib Dem candidate onto a school parent council committee, never mind to Westminster. He's completely hopeless.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 8, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Do Tory voters;
> 
> Want the NHS to be dissolved?
> Not care about the NHS?
> ...


Why is it only Tory Voters that get this nonsense?

Do LD voters want the NHS dissolved?
Did those that voted Labour from 97-15 want the NHS dissolved?
Do Labour voters want libraries closed? If not why are they voting for a party that is currently closing them?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 8, 2019)

McDonnell doing well on Marr (I think)


----------



## Supine (Dec 8, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> McDonnell doing well on Marr (I think)



I was just thinking he did terribly.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 8, 2019)

There's a surprise. 

BTW are voters that vote for homophobes responsible for homophobia?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 8, 2019)

Yeah I know it's the mail but this is just desperate stuff. I see the papers every day as I work in a shop and every day it's been the anti semitism line. Not a word in islamophobia in the tory party of course but this one just makes me laugh... Worst on the planet? Yeah totally, I mean he's obviously way worse than the rulers of Iran and ISIS isn't he? Crazy! I'm surprised they push it this hard because surely there comes a point where people reading it just see it for the hysterical desperation it is. I mean how can anyone take that seriously?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

'the worst antisemite in the world 2019'


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

David Irving must be gutted


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> David Irving must be gutted


Good idea.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> David Irving must be gutted



A bold manifesto pledge, but one I can support


----------



## JimW (Dec 8, 2019)

He's produced tripe for decades, about time he went that last step.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

Just had a labour thing through door. Amazing that candidates can run literature with an entirely different position to party


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

This is welsh labour, so assume they can go full remain on leaflets because that's welsh labour's policy (!) but this is, you know, a westminster election. They also don't mention NHS, presumably because it's a devolved power and labour in govt here while welsh NHS a right mess so don't want to draw too much attention to it


----------



## gosub (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just had a labour thing through door. Amazing that candidates can run literature with an entirely different position to party



Protecting older people and Remaining in the EU.......These older people need protecting from themselves gawd bless em


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 8, 2019)




----------



## Shechemite (Dec 8, 2019)

Communist League landslide in Tottenham


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 8, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> "It won't happen to me" - most conservative voters.



Plus I don't care if it happens to someone else (and it's probably their fault if it does)...which is the bit I really really don't get.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> This is welsh labour, so assume they can go full remain on leaflets because that's welsh labour's policy (!) but this is, you know, a westminster election. They also don't mention NHS, presumably because it's a devolved power and labour in govt here while welsh NHS a right mess so don't want to draw too much attention to it


This is one area in which Wales is currently screwed over by devolution. If Wales were included with England for funding, Wales would receive significantly more money per person than it currently receives. One of the problems with this half-arsed devolution, but also one of the problems with nationalism in general. Wales has more old people than England. Why? Because old people tend to go to places like Wales to retire, while young people tend to go to certain parts of England to work. That isn't reflected in the funding formula, while it is reflected in the _internal_ England formula - whoever agreed to that formula at the time of devolution is either an idiot or a wanker. It makes no sense to consider Wales in isolation from England on matters like these.

NHS Wales: badly run by Labour or underfunded by Westminster?

Formula for English funding detailed here:

https://www.england.nhs.uk › nhs-allocations-infographics-v1.2.pdf

Basically, based on things like demographics, poverty levels and employment levels, Wales would receive about 10 per cent more money per head under this formula than it does under the devolution formula. And yes, the NHS in Wales is in a right mess. Of course - if England is underfunded (and it is), what does that make Wales?


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> [...] One of the problems with this half-arsed devolution, but also one of the problems with nationalism in general. [...]


I agree about half-baked devolution, but since it's different in kind, how do its shortcomings undermine the case for independence? Sovereign states of comparable size to Wales don't suffer her funding woes, since they can either create their own currency or (in the case of eurozone members) decide their own fiscal policy.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 8, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I agree about half-baked devolution, but since it's different in kind, how do its shortcomings undermine the case for independence? Sovereign states of comparable size to Wales don't suffer her funding woes, since they can either create their own currency or (in the case of eurozone members) decide their own fiscal policy.


Even full 'independence' would not change the extreme interdependence of Wales with England. You would still have more young people (like me, eg) leaving Wales as they reach adulthood to go and work in England than you would have going in the reverse direction. 'Independent' Wales would be nothing of the sort. It would be hugely dependent on England. There would be a danger of something similar to what happened in Ireland in the decades following independence - net emigration (much of it to England), a skewed demography as a result of that emigration, and a state of perpetual economic struggle.

Calls for independence rest more on hope than realistic expectation, while half-arsed devolution like there is at the moment is just a pile of stinking shit, of benefit to nobody except the politicians who get to wield the (extremely limited) devolved powers. It's little better than a con.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 8, 2019)

And to pull that back onto some kind of relevance here, it is why you can never trust a nationalist. If independence, or failing that devolution, is the goal, fucking up things like NHS funding becomes a secondary concern if those aims of independence/devolution are reached.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Even full 'independence' would not change the extreme interdependence of Wales with England. You would still have more young people (like me, eg) leaving Wales as they reach adulthood to go and work in England than you would have going in the reverse direction. 'Independent' Wales would be nothing of the sort. It would be hugely dependent on England. There would be a danger of something similar to what happened in Ireland in the decades following independence - net emigration (much of it to England), a skewed demography as a result of that emigration, and a state of perpetual economic struggle.
> 
> Calls for independence rest more on hope than realistic expectation, while half-arsed devolution like there is at the moment is just a pile of stinking shit, of benefit to nobody except the politicians who get to wield the (extremely limited) devolved powers. It's little better than a con.


As ever with matters of independence, I say that it’s a matter for the people of Wales: but speaking generally, smaller countries are always hugely dependent on their larger neighbours. Not an argument against independence itself so much as it’s an argument for the absence of trade barriers (why, alongside an understandable desire for mutual protection, the Benelux nations were so keen on the Treaty of Rome).


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And to pull that back onto some kind of relevance here, it is why you can never trust a nationalist. If independence, or failing that devolution, is the goal, fucking up things like NHS funding becomes a secondary concern if those aims of independence/devolution are reached.


Depends on the relative weight they place on independence and economic well-being, surely?

Plenty in Scotland — let alone Wales — are soft nats (strictly in an economic sense!), whose support for Indy is far from unconditional. I’m a hopeless convert to romantic lost causes, but I try to let my head govern my heart, which is why I’ve been convinced of the case for Scottish independence, but ran a mile from Vote Leave.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 8, 2019)

In economic history, dependency theory seems to have gone out of fashion in recent decades as a way of explaining macroeconomic patterns. It shouldn't, though, imo. It's still a pretty powerful way of looking at things. In such a scheme, Wales would be the 'periphery' draining resources to the England 'core'. And if Wales were a notionally separate political entity, there would be little pressure on England to sort out any of Wales's problems, just as there isn't currently regarding the NHS funding gap, which would be addressed if it were part of England. 'Welsh problems for Welsh people', but that would be an illusion, another con.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In economic history, dependency theory seems to have gone out of fashion in recent decades as a way of explaining macroeconomic patterns. It shouldn't, though, imo. It's still a pretty powerful way of looking at things. In such a scheme, Wales would be the 'periphery' draining resources to the England 'core'. And if Wales were a notionally separate political entity, there would be little pressure on England to sort out any of Wales's problems, just as there isn't currently regarding the NHS funding gap, which would be addressed if it were part of England. 'Welsh problems for Welsh people', but that would be an illusion, another con.


I’ll not speak for the Welsh, but generally, the nat rebuttal would be that they don’t seek handouts, but the autonomy to decide their own spending priorities.

Even accepting it arguendo, dependence theory can be countered by federalism, but that’d require the federalization of England herself, and outside major cities, her counties have shown little interest, rejecting attempts to set up local executives several times.

That being so, in these particular circumstances where England will always dominate, I can’t find fault with those nations who wish to escape her grip and chart their own course.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

And dragging it back to the election, if the Tories do manage a majority off the back of English votes (my entreaties to any god who’ll listen that they don’t continue), the momentum towards reunification for Ireland and independence for Scotland will be unstoppable. No union of nations can long survive such regional disparities.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 8, 2019)

I'm all for a properly federal UK, not to mention a return to local authorities of the powers and responsibilities they've been stripped of over the last 40 years.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 8, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I’ll not speak for the Welsh, but generally, the nat rebuttal would be that they don’t seek handouts, but the autonomy to decide their own spending priorities.
> 
> Even accepting it arguendo, dependence theory can be countered by federalism, but that’d require the federalization of England herself, and outside major cities, her counties have shown little interest, rejecting attempts to set up local executives several times.
> 
> That being so, in these particular circumstances where England will always dominate, I can’t find fault with those nations who wish to escape her grip and chart their own course.


Please stop saying arguendo.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm all for a properly federal UK, not to mention a return to local authorities of the powers and responsibilities they've been stripped of over the last 40 years.


Theoretically, British federalization has much to recommend it: but as noted, it's impracticable when one constituent part's bigger than every other combined. Lopsided federations tend to either splinter, or be federations in name only, such as the German Empire with Prussia.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Please stop saying arguendo.


I'll vary it with the clunky "for the sake of argument" if it'll make ya happy.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 8, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Please stop saying arguendo.


Yes, I’d be grateful if you stopped it _ex nunc_, Azrael .


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I'll vary it with the clunky "for the sake of argument" if it'll make ya happy.



what's wrong with arguentably?


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

Hick hack hock, no pleasing some. I pledge myself to keeping English, erm, English. And I thought I was conservative!


----------



## JimW (Dec 8, 2019)

One of the best left backs River Plate ever had.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 8, 2019)

Azrael said:


> That being so, in these particular circumstances where England will always dominate, I can’t find fault with those nations who wish to escape her grip and chart their own course.


You recast the argument. Which 'England' dominates? It's not Cornwall, is it? It's not Yorkshire farmers or working class Londoners. That's the key problem with nationalisms of all kinds - they obscure more than they reveal wrt shared struggles. Indeed they need a project of national identity in order to construct a common struggle. Corporatism, in a word.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You recast the argument. Which 'England' dominates? It's not Cornwall, is it? It's not Yorkshire farmers or working class Londoners. That's the key problem with nationalisms of all kinds - they obscure more than they reveal wrt shared struggles. Indeed they need a project of national identity in order to construct a common struggle. Corporatism, in a word.


Whichever party a majority of English constituencies choose to elect. Of course they don’t speak for all in England, but when those trends are markedly different from other members of the U.K., it’s a problem.

Does, say, the independence of the Nordic countries distract from their common struggles? Their citizens can cooperate across borders without a common government.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 8, 2019)

I thought this was the GE thread.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Please stop saying arguendo.


Captain arguendo


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 8, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm all for a properly federal UK, not to mention a return to local authorities of the powers and responsibilities they've been stripped of over the last 40 years.



We'd have to do something about the rancid corruption and incompetence of local authorities first.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 8, 2019)

One of those surreal moments that made me smile:


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

Watching some election debate on C4. Rayner for Labour, not sure who SNP woman is, then Price, Bartley, and Swinson. Swinson getting absolutely fucking hammered. Everything I've seen her on she gets demolished. Lots on austerity and she's got fuck all. Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats, lol


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Watching some election debate on C4. Rayner for Labour, not sure who SNP woman is, then Price, Bartley, and Swinson. Swinson getting absolutely fucking hammered. Everything I've seen her on she gets demolished. Lots on austerity and she's got fuck all. Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats, lol


spare a thought for those of us whose tactical vote has to be Lib Dem.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> spare a thought for those of us whose tactical vote has to be Lib Dem.


I honestly don't think I could do it. I bet Plaid and Greens deeply regretting that remain alliance shit too, they saw EU election results and pre election period polling and thought they could take some seats with libdems swinging behind them, now look


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Watching some election debate on C4. Rayner for Labour, not sure who SNP woman is, then Price, Bartley, and Swinson. Swinson getting absolutely fucking hammered. Everything I've seen her on she gets demolished. Lots on austerity and she's got fuck all. Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats, lol


John Mayall's Bluesbreakers have more chance to win seats than the golden shower


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Swinson getting absolutely fucking hammered


I'll be fair, this is my reaction to modern British politics as well.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Watching some election debate on C4. Rayner for Labour, not sure who SNP woman is, then Price, Bartley, and Swinson. Swinson getting absolutely fucking hammered. Everything I've seen her on she gets demolished. Lots on austerity and she's got fuck all. Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats, lol



At least Swinson turned up.   Another debate the Tories and Brexit Party have refused to take part in.  Absolute cunts.  

The SNP woman is my MP FYI.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 8, 2019)

teqniq said:


> One of those surreal moments that made me smile:
> 
> View attachment 192358
> View attachment 192357



I demand that Johnson apologise for the vandalism that is now endemic amongst Tory supporters.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Watching some election debate on C4. Rayner for Labour, not sure who SNP woman is, then Price, Bartley, and Swinson. Swinson getting absolutely fucking hammered. Everything I've seen her on she gets demolished. Lots on austerity and she's got fuck all. Jo Swinson's Liberal Democrats, lol


The SNP woman is Philippa Whitford.


----------



## treelover (Dec 8, 2019)

If labour has become a social movement campaigning and acting on poverty, food banks, UC, it may have been able to engage with the red wall voters a bit more, but as i repeat adfin, these issues were not a priority for much of the left, even at Conf, social security was right down the ballot for motions to it. Wilf on here had been saying that for years.


----------



## treelover (Dec 8, 2019)

I wonder how a Blue Labour leadership, maybe under Cruddas would have fared?


----------



## chilango (Dec 8, 2019)

treelover said:


> I wonder how a Blue Labour leadership, maybe under Cruddas would have fared?



Terribly.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 8, 2019)

treelover said:


> I wonder how a Blue Labour leadership, maybe under Cruddas would have fared?



Worse I think. That centre ground is pretty dead at the moment and I think they'd have lost a lot of voters around here. I agree with your first post to an extent.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 8, 2019)

Plenty of blue labour influence in the miliband era, ended up with a tory majority after five years of cuts and attacking the working class. It's dead. All for focussing on appealing to w/c voters but it didn't.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 8, 2019)

treelover said:


> I wonder how a Blue Labour leadership, maybe under Cruddas would have fared?


Talking to some people the other day  (I say people, but they worked for a bank) they thought a Blairite Labour party would walk this election,  I don't think so - Bliarites are anti-Brexit so it would have been the same arguments.


----------



## belboid (Dec 8, 2019)

treelover said:


> I wonder how a Blue Labour leadership, maybe under Cruddas would have fared?


They'd have cheered on benefit cuts, praised UC to the sky, and would have tried to face in two directions at once over Brexit. May would have won the 2017 election.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 8, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Plenty of blue labour influence in the miliband era, ended up with a tory majority after five years of cuts and attacking the working class. It's dead. All for focussing on appealing to w/c voters but it didn't.



Exactly. There was no way I'd have voted for them at that time.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 8, 2019)

Mildly interesting/diverting (click for full (massive) size).


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 8, 2019)

If only people were............


----------



## emanymton (Dec 8, 2019)

belboid said:


> They'd have cheered on benefit cuts, praised UC to the sky, and would have tried to face in two directions at once over Brexit. May would have won the 2017 election.


My nightmare scenario. 

Tories win, Labour then shifts to the right and win the next election. Which these fucks see it as a proof they were right all along.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 8, 2019)

emanymton said:


> Tories win, Labour then shifts to the right and win the next election. Which these fucks see it as a proof they were right all along.



with the blairites, a bad poll / election is taken as a sign they should move further right.  a good poll / election is taken as endorsement of doing so.

blargh.


----------



## treelover (Dec 8, 2019)

Times reporting Johnson to visit parts of the 'red wall' tomorrow, Sunderland, etc, he will them them, that "EU migrants have thought they could treat the UK as part of their own country for too long"

Nice...

I think McDonnell's huge amount of nationalisation, offers, etc, may have been a bridge too far.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 9, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> spare a thought for those of us whose tactical vote has to be Lib Dem.


*Has to be?* Is someone holding a gun to your head?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Plenty of blue labour influence in the miliband era, ended up with a tory majority after five years of cuts and attacking the working class. It's dead. All for focussing on appealing to w/c voters but it didn't.



I mostly just remember the attempts to demonise immigration then.

Noone believed it, besides the Tory's do it better.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 9, 2019)

In defence of the Conservative voters.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 9, 2019)

Badgers said:


> In defence of the Conservative voters.



Grim reading, but probably accurate in respect of a large number of voters.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> spare a thought for those of us whose tactical vote has to be Lib Dem.


Obviously people will use their vote (or not use it) however they see fit, but given the situation where the fight in a constituency is between the Tories and the Lib Dems, I probably wouldn’t vote.

If the Tories can only be denied a majority by Lib Dem gains, that’s a Pyrrhic victory for Not Tory, because the Lib Dems will then put the Tories back in government by going into coalition. And break all their prior promises in order to ride in ministerial cars.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Grim reading, but probably accurate in respect of a large number of voters.



It’s smug moral garbage. Written to display the superiority of the writer compared to the dim sheep voting Tory. It’s not a serious attempt to _engage _and convince. Echo chamber fodder


----------



## belboid (Dec 9, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Obviously people will use their vote (or not use it) however they see fit, but given the situation where the fight in a constituency is between the Tories and the Lib Dems, I probably wouldn’t vote.
> 
> If the Tories can only be denied a majority by Lib Dem gains, that’s a Pyrrhic victory for Not Tory, because the Lib Dems will then put the Tories back in government by going into coalition. And break all their prior promises in order to ride in ministerial cars.


looking at the seats the Guardian says we should vote LibDem in....against Dominic Raab, I could see it as being tempting because he is _such _a shit. One would do so in private, of course, and publicly proclaim for Labour still. Otherwise, fuck that.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Dec 9, 2019)

I'm well out of it. I don't know if I could vote Lib-Dem, however tactically it made sense.

Why don't the fuckers vote Labour? It always seems to be Liberals who benefit.
 Are they going to vote Labour in Uxbridge?  Even Lord Buckethead has urged his supporter(s) to vote Labour

_"Lord Buckethead, also a candidate, has urged his supporters put Monster Raving Loony loyalties aside and vote tactically, because “some things are more important than electing an intergalactic space lord to parliament”.
_
Jo Swinson 'could help defeat Boris Johnson if Lib Dems pull out of Uxbridge'

That's seemingly all about Brexit, which I think has got to happen. But seeing Johnson unceremoniously lose his seat has got to be worth it.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 9, 2019)

treelover said:


> If labour has become a social movement campaigning and acting on poverty, food banks, UC, it may have been able to engage with the red wall voters a bit more, but as i repeat adfin, these issues were not a priority for much of the left, even at Conf, social security was right down the ballot for motions to it. Wilf on here had been saying that for years.


As someone who's long admired the British tradition of friendly societies, I couldn't agree more. The financial commitments are so vast that social security unboundedly needs the power of government, but as a proto welfare state, friendly societies showed the way. Now that the Tories have dismantled so much of the 1906 and 1945 consensus (with the cheery complicity of the Orange Bookers), repeating the cycle may be necessary.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 9, 2019)

Badgers said:


> In defence of the Conservative voters.


Good description of how the con's run, although the end goes way too easy on those voting against the interests of themselves and their communities. We're all responsible for how we vote, and enabling Johnson at the expense of society's most vulnerable isn't something to be waved away.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2019)

weepiper said:


> The SNP woman is Philippa Whitford.
> 
> View attachment 192363


Didn’t watch the debate, but she’s far more impressive than Blackford, whom I find too “business friendly” (E.g. suggesting zero rate of capital gains tax, ffs).


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Good description of how the con's run, although the end goes way too easy on those voting against the interests of themselves and their communities. We're all responsible for how we vote, and enabling Johnson at the expense of society's most vulnerable isn't something to be waved away.



Who is it aimed at? Who does it attempt to convince? 

The answers are a) those who believe their liberalism/socialism makes them superior to others and b) nobody. 

At this stage those planning to switch to the Tories because of Brexit/Corbyn need to be engaged with to stay or, if that is impossible, to sit on their hands. That article offers _nothing_ to help.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It’s smug moral garbage. Written to display the superiority of the writer compared to the dim sheep voting Tory. It’s not a serious attempt to _engage _and convince. Echo chamber fodder



I was thinking that - if that is truly the political analysis of labour/the left of why people vote Tory, then it's little wonder they are about to lose their fourth election on the trot.

Vacuous, virtue-signalling, tosh....


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I was thinking that - if that is truly the political analysis of labour/the left of why people vote Tory, then it's little wonder they are about to lose their fourth election on the trot.
> 
> Vacuous, virtue-signalling, tosh....



“You literally all read The Sun and the Daily Mail”

Fuck off


----------



## LDC (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> “You literally all read The Sun and the Daily Mail”
> 
> Fuck off



It's from the smug moralistic anarchists for Corbyn bloc.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 9, 2019)

Ex-anarchists, surely?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Grim reading, but probably accurate in respect of a large number of voters.


Christ. I got as far as “You barely know the names of the leaders of the other parties”, and could see the tone set, so stopped.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 9, 2019)

This boards full of gammon sheeple


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2019)

Badgers said:


> In defence of the Conservative voters.



i want to earn £7,472 an hour too


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> “You literally all read The Sun and the Daily Mail”
> 
> Fuck off




As EP Thompson once observed 


> will no doubt believe that they owe some allegiance to the working-class movement, as the ultimate political force which will achieve socialism. But it is a very abstract allegiance. Real working people fill them with nausea: “they know no more than the material standards of the television and washing machine which they have gained.”


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Obviously people will use their vote (or not use it) however they see fit, but given the situation where the fight in a constituency is between the Tories and the Lib Dems, I probably wouldn’t vote.
> 
> If the Tories can only be denied a majority by Lib Dem gains, that’s a Pyrrhic victory for Not Tory, because the Lib Dems will then put the Tories back in government by going into coalition. And break all their prior promises in order to ride in ministerial cars.


I’m in such a constituency and I voted Labour (postal already done) to try to get them back their deposit.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Who is it aimed at? Who does it attempt to convince?
> 
> The answers are a) those who believe their liberalism/socialism makes them superior to others and b) nobody.
> 
> At this stage those planning to switch to the Tories because of Brexit/Corbyn need to be engaged with to stay or, if that is impossible, to sit on their hands. That article offers _nothing_ to help.


Politics as views - _you have the correct views so you are progressive_.

Never mind if someone has just scabbed, never mind if they are a employer or landlord those those things aren't political. What's political is putting a tick on a piece of paper and making sure you share the right twitter memes.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 9, 2019)

Next election the vermin will build their case around the ‘points-based immigration system’ which Labour will oppose. That’s the next battle ground, building more anti-immigrant/anti poor attitudes.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 9, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Obviously people will use their vote (or not use it) however they see fit, but given the situation where the fight in a constituency is between the Tories and the Lib Dems, I probably wouldn’t vote.
> 
> If the Tories can only be denied a majority by Lib Dem gains, that’s a Pyrrhic victory for Not Tory, because the Lib Dems will then put the Tories back in government by going into coalition. And break all their prior promises in order to ride in ministerial cars.


More than likely, but not the only possible outcome, and I'd still say a coalition government is better than a Tory majority.

Without a Tory majority there is still hope. Of what, exactly, I don't know, but with a Tory majority we're just all fucked.

One fewer Tory MP is better than almost any other option, imo.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> More than likely, but not the only possible outcome, and I'd still say a coalition government is better than a Tory majority.
> 
> Without a Tory majority there is still hope. Of what, exactly, I don't know, but with a Tory majority we're just all fucked.
> 
> One fewer Tory MP is better than almost any other option, imo.


That’s an individual call, of course.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 9, 2019)

I couldn't do it. I feel like shit voting labour tbh, couldn't manage anything worse than that, would just stay in


----------



## chilango (Dec 9, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> That’s an individual call, of course.



There are positives to take from a Tory?LibDem coalition. Largely in the strife it'll trigger in, and for, both Parties.

*Not that I could ever vote LibDem, as Proper Tidy says its been enough of an ask to vote Labour.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 9, 2019)

treelover said:


> Times reporting Johnson to visit parts of the 'red wall' tomorrow, Sunderland, etc, he will them them, that "EU migrants have thought they could treat the UK as part of their own country for too long"
> 
> Nice...
> 
> I think McDonnell's huge amount of nationalisation, offers, etc, may have been a bridge too far.



I should think Johnson will be thirsty during his trip and the good people of the North East may wish to buy him a milkshake.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 9, 2019)

edit: somethings better left unspoken.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 9, 2019)

This is where I get torn; I honestly don't know how much responsibility I place on people who could help keep a Tory out, but for whatever reason don't.

I get it, I'm very glad it's not a question I have to put to myself (my constituency is a Labour maj, so I can just hold my nose and vote for them), but I still struggle to completely understand the logic. If it's a choice between a Tory winning your seat or a Lib Dem winning your seat, _surely_ the latter is preferable, even it is only by a very slim margin?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> More than likely, but not the only possible outcome, and I'd still say a coalition government is better than a Tory majority.
> 
> Without a Tory majority there is still hope. Of what, exactly, I don't know, but with a Tory majority we're just all fucked.
> 
> One fewer Tory MP is better than almost any other option, imo.


Don't agree with your first point - if anything the tories in coalition with the libdems were able to be worse than they could have been otherwise in 2010-2015. But I do agree with your second point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> I should think Johnson will be thirsty during his trip and the good people of the North East may wish to buy him a milkshake.


i was thinking more of a bottle of drain cleaner.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 9, 2019)

Lib Dems took the damage for the 2010 coalition, the collapse of their vote then gave Cameron a victory as LD seats in the south-west and elsewhere lost their ‘tactical’ vote.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> This is where I get torn; I honestly don't know how much responsibility I place on people who could help keep a Tory out, but for whatever reason don't.
> 
> I get it, I'm very glad it's not a question I have to put to myself (my constituency is a Labour maj, so I can just hold my nose and vote for them), but I still struggle to completely understand the logic. If it's a choice between a Tory winning your seat or a Lib Dem winning your seat, _surely_ the latter is preferable, even it is only by a very slim margin?


I once thought that.  2010 taught me otherwise.  2015 then taught me that if you vote for people you don't like, subsequent politicos will use that data as arguments in favour of the things you don't like.  So don't do it -- always refuse the option you are fundamentally opposed to, even if that does mean another option you are fundamentally opposed to gets a victory.  The war is what matters, not one battle.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i was thinking more of a bottle of drain cleaner.



Maybe get this bawdy geordie to serenade him.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 9, 2019)

I'm not convinced by this - not least because some wars swing on particular battles, and you usually don't get to find out which were the important battles, and which ones the unimportant ones, until you can look back from 20/30/40 years in the future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Maybe get this bawdy geordie to serenade him.



the geordies repudiate him


----------



## Cid (Dec 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 192384
> i want to earn £7,472 an hour too



I do feel a bit sorry for 'Emily'. She was probably just some random student/tourist in Louisiana who happened to pose with Srdjan Loncar's 2008 piece _Value_, and yet now she is the face of countless cons.







They're styrofoam with photographic prints incidentally.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the geordies repudiate him



Indeed. Repudiate would also be a good name for a rapper.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> Indeed. Repudiate would also be a good name for a rapper.


Rep UD8's second album is coming out in a week


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Next election the vermin will build their case around the ‘points-based immigration system’ which Labour will oppose. That’s the next battle ground, building more anti-immigrant/anti poor attitudes.


A points based immigration system or one built on skill shortages would probably gain significant traction outside of Tory voters tbh. Open borders might be popular in what passes for the left and big business these days but that's about it .


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 9, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> A points based immigration system or one built on skill shortages would probably gain significant traction outside of Tory voters tbh. Open borders might be popular in what passes for the left and big business these days but that's about it .


If big business will go with a points system, it will probably be like that in the California computer industry where immigrant programmers are in a state of indentured servitude. Their visas prevent them looking for alternative work in the US and cuts them off from local workers, so it drives down wages for both them and the locals. That would be one possible line of attack, surely?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2019)

Dont think this superb video has been posted . Apols if it has.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> If big business will go with a points system, it will probably be like that in the California computer industry where immigrant programmers are in a state of indentured servitude. Their visas prevent them looking for alternative work in the US and cuts them off from local workers, so it drives down wages for both them and the locals. That would be one possible line of attack, surely?


Possibly.Not sure what happened to the old aage about choosing fights carefully, if you can.  Why anyone would think a points sytem is the 'next' battleground out of all the issues that the w/class face is quite beyond me tbh I'm not sure its a 'battle' worth fighting.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Possibly.Not sure what happened to the old aage about choosing fights carefully, if you can.  Why anyone would think a points sytem is the 'next' battleground out of all the issues that the w/class face is quite beyond me tbh I'm not sure its a 'battle' worth fighting.



Depends on why you are in the game doesn't it? If it's for hobbyist/belonging to the in crowd reasons then a battle to win 'open borders' ticks so many of the correct boxes.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Rep UD8's second album is coming out in a week



Sort of knew there would be one. It’s like the late 80s/90s when all the bands had one word names, Curve, Embrace, Ash. Eventually there is only a few left.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Depends on why you are in the game doesn't it? If it's for hobbyist/belonging to the in crowd reasons then a battle to win 'open borders' ticks so many of the correct boxes.


I don't think immigration policy is for 'hobbyists' only tbf. And if something is popular with the electorate, it doesn't necessarily mean it's just or right.

The medium to long term future - indeed, the present moment - is one of increasing migration from parts of the world made less hospitable by climate change. A 'points based system' is not a humane response to this challenge, and the efforts countries will have to go to to enforce their 'points based system' will be increasingly ugly. It's already very ugly- and wanting a political answer to this that doesn't involve ever increasing numbers of human beings drowning in the med, living in squalor for years on end in refugee camps and dying in refrigerated lorries is not a 'hobby'.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2019)

Got a “hand written” (ie script text) letter from the celery-in-a-jumper Lib Dem candidate now:


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Possibly.Not sure what happened to the old aage about choosing fights carefully, if you can.  Why anyone would think a points sytem is the 'next' battleground out of all the issues that the w/class face is quite beyond me tbh I'm not sure its a 'battle' worth fighting.



At conference groups like Labour Campaign to Defend Free Movement were dominant and got much of their motions agreed.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't think immigration policy is for 'hobbyists' only tbf. And if something is popular with the electorate, it doesn't necessarily mean it's just or right.
> 
> The medium to long term future - indeed, the present moment - is one of increasing migration from parts of the world made less hospitable by climate change. A 'points based system' is not a humane response to this challenge, and the efforts countries will have to go to to enforce their 'points based system' will be increasingly ugly. It's already very ugly- and wanting a political answer to this that doesn't involve ever increasing numbers of human beings drowning in the med, living in squalor for years on end in refugee camps and dying in refrigerated lorries is not a 'hobby'.



There is an implication that those who don’t meet the narrow requirements of a points based system are the opportunistic flotsam of the world, less worthy humans than, say, someone who has reached the level of IT skills necessary to help a global company maintain its paywalls.

I wouldn’t even argue that social utility is the right measure, but people who arrive with seemingly less to offer make massive contributions all the way through, whether they clean or care or build or because they or their children do unexpected and creative things. Or simply just be with the rest of us.


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2019)

But how many, is there support for this, it doesn't look like it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't think immigration policy is for 'hobbyists' only tbf. And if something is popular with the electorate, it doesn't necessarily mean it's just or right.
> 
> The medium to long term future - indeed, the present moment - is one of increasing migration from parts of the world made less hospitable by climate change. A 'points based system' is not a humane response to this challenge, and the efforts countries will have to go to to enforce their 'points based system' will be increasingly ugly. It's already very ugly- and wanting a political answer to this that doesn't involve ever increasing numbers of human beings drowning in the med, living in squalor for years on end in refugee camps and dying in refrigerated lorries is not a 'hobby'.



The OP stated that the Tories would focus their manifesto at the next GE (presumably in 2024) around a points based immigration system and that this was the coming "battleground".

I don't think that right. Firstly, I do not believe that it will be what they base their next manifesto around. Secondly, if they did, why would their opponents focus on this issue over many other urgent issues facing the WC?

Your post seems to be answering a different set of questions.

ETA: If something is popular with the electorate, simply attacking the electorate for it is not likely to be successful. But, this will be a debate for the comimg days and not now.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 9, 2019)

Post election there will be big fights over NHS/social care.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2019)

treelover said:


> At conference groups like Labour Campaign to Defend Free Movement were dominant and got much of their motions agreed.


when you say much of their motions, do you mean the 'conference notes' bit but not the 'conference resolves to' bits?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Post election there will be big fights over NHS/social care.



Post election there will be massive issues and questions posed. I would argue (in no order) - trading arrangements with the EU/USA/others, the economy, inequality, further precarity, an expansion of privatisation, further anti union laws, social care, local government/services, crime, immigration, climate change.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Post election there will be massive issues and questions posed. I would argue (in no order) - trading arrangements with the EU/USA/others, the economy, inequality, further precarity, an expansion of privatisation, further anti union laws, social care, local government/services, crime, immigration, climate change.


post election there will be massive barneys about who'll be last out of the country and need to check the heating's off and turn out the lights.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

treelover said:


> But how many, is there support for this, it doesn't look like it.


Of course not, but does that mean activist should see it as a lost cause, or should they try and change people's minds? The alternative is pretty horrific tbh.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The OP stated that the Tories would focus their manifesto at the next GE (presumably in 2024) around a points based immigration system and that this was the coming "battleground".
> 
> I don't think that right. Firstly, I do not believe that it will be what they base their next manifesto around. Secondly, if they did, why would their opponents focus on this issue over many other urgent issues facing the WC?
> 
> ...


I wasn't answering any set of questions, I was challenging the idea in your post (and many of your other posts) that support for a more open immigration policy is only for hobbyists and 'the in crowd'.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 9, 2019)

DUP seem a bit miffed 

Arlene Foster turns on Boris Johnson, saying she will never take him at his word again


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 9, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Arlene Foster turns on Boris Johnson, saying she will never take him at his word again


I mean, y'have to wonder why she ever did in the first place.


----------



## Supine (Dec 9, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I mean, y'have to wonder why she ever did in the first place.



Couple of billion dollars wasn't it


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> There is an implication that those who don’t meet the narrow requirements of a points based system are the opportunistic flotsam of the world, less worthy humans than, say, someone who has reached the level of IT skills necessary to help a global company maintain its paywalls.
> 
> I wouldn’t even argue that social utility is the right measure, but people who arrive with seemingly less to offer make massive contributions all the way through, whether they clean or care or build or because they or their children do unexpected and creative things. Or simply just be with the rest of us.


Yep. Those who don't have an urgent need to emigrate to make a better life for themselves are the ones who will get the points. Those with that need won't have the points. It's a topsy-turvy world.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 9, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Possibly.Not sure what happened to the old adage about choosing fights carefully, if you can.  Why anyone would think a points sytem is the 'next' battleground out of all the issues that the w/class face is quite beyond me tbh I'm not sure its a 'battle' worth fighting.



You don’t get to choose your battles in this game, the government and media allies will make it the issue, same way that discussion of the state of the NHS has been shut down in this election, as Brexit was the wedge issue to provide a Tory victory despite their appalling record on running (down) the country.  I think they’ll be able to successfully make immigration control the next wedge between themselves and other parties, might see them through until 2029.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wasn't answering any set of questions, I was challenging the idea in your post (and many of your other posts) that support for a more open immigration policy is only for hobbyists and 'the in crowd'.



The evidence suggests that Britain is already more pro-immigration than the rest of Europe: 
Poll reveals significant shift in UK attitude towards immigration

Given you weren’t answering the points raised by the OP I’m even more unclear as to your point.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

ok.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The evidence suggests that Britain is already more pro-immigration than the rest of Europe:
> Poll reveals significant shift in UK attitude towards immigration
> 
> Given you weren’t answering the points raised by the OP I’m even more unclear as to your point.


We also know that anti-immigrant hostility has risen in the last four years. And now we have a prime minister openly inciting hatred towards immigrants. I'd be pretty nervous if were a Pole running a shop right now.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> ok.



You weren't commenting on the point made by the OP about a points based system. 

You state that prioritising a more open immigration policy issue isn't just for hobbyists or performative lefts 

You've seen the evidence that Britain already has a progressive attitude to immigration relative to the rest of Europe 

So what is it that you are calling for?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 9, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Got a “hand written” (ie script text) letter from the celery-in-a-jumper Lib Dem candidate now:
> 
> View attachment 192399


Wonder what the logic is to choosing a font that looks at first glance like it's handwritten and therefore personal then addressing it to 'dear voter'


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2019)

Badgers said:


> DUP seem a bit miffed
> 
> Arlene Foster turns on Boris Johnson, saying she will never take him at his word again



bit late now, isn't it?


----------



## flypanam (Dec 9, 2019)

Badgers said:


> DUP seem a bit miffed
> 
> Arlene Foster turns on Boris Johnson, saying she will never take him at his word again


Like fuck. If Johnson needs a friend, she'll be there. This is all part of the DUP trying to sure up their vote. Their under pressure in the north. They'll still return 8-9 seats I think, but its the possibility of losing either South or East Belfast that shits them. Their conduct over the last two years hasen't endeared them to either the South Belfast middle class nor the farmers.

Of course if the Tories win a majority, they won't count. If it's a hung parliament unless the yellow scum join up who else is there?

eta in East Belfast they fucked over the shipyard workers, that sort of thing is not easily forgotten.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So what is it that you are calling for?


I'm not 'calling' for anything. I was challenging you on something you said, which you're trying real hard not to understand for some reason.


----------



## maomao (Dec 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wonder what the logic is to choosing a font that looks at first glance like it's handwritten and therefore personal then addressing it to 'dear voter'


Or maybe 'Voter' is kabbes' real name.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We also know that anti-immigrant hostility has risen in the last four years. And now we have a prime minister openly inciting hatred towards immigrants. I'd be pretty nervous if were a Pole running a shop right now.


If you were this imaginary Polish shopkeeper you'd probably be more worried about shoplifters and armed attackers rather than the prime minister tbh.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm not 'calling' for anything. I was challenging you on something you said, which you're trying real hard not to understand for some reason.



I said that the only people who could look at the consequences of a Tory win, and the challenges facing the working class now and in those circumstances, and draw the conclusion that the key coming battle was over open borders were hobbyists.

Do you disagree?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 9, 2019)

maomao said:


> Or maybe 'Voter' is kabbes' real name.


Voter Montague MBE PC


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I said that the only people who could look at the consequences of a Tory win, and the challenges facing the working class now and in those circumstances, and draw the conclusion that the key coming battle was over open borders were hobbyists.
> 
> Do you disagree?


Immigration policy will absolutely be a key battle with the tories in the coming months/years. You'd be mad to think otherwise.


----------



## xenon (Dec 9, 2019)

Open borders is a misnoma anyway, No mainstream political public argument exists in favour of them and there's no apetite for open borders in the populas at large.

Immigration isn't going away as a contencious subject any time soon though. With likely just more rhetoric about how to control it. Personly I'm not in favour of open borders but neither a fortress Europe approach.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 9, 2019)

xenon said:


> Open borders is a misnoma anyway, No mainstream political public argument exists in favour of them and there's no apetite for open borders in the populas at large.
> 
> Immigration isn't going away as a contencious subject any time soon though. With likely just more rhetoric about how to control it. Personly I'm not in favour of open borders but neither a fortress Europe approach.


When I had my job in New Zealand I went under a scheme where employers can say "hey, we need this guy for this job, please give him a visa". Is that open borders, or is it controlled immigration? Or is it both?

To fight both open borders (far too vague) and fortress Europe (far too explicit, in a bad way) we need slogans that refuse to define the problem in those terms. I suggest these -

1. No colour bar in immigration.

2. No abuse of asylum seekers.

3. No use of immigration to increase exploitation of either native or immigrant labour.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 9, 2019)

There is still time for a major tory fuck up. A few more interviews like this could swing the undecideds.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2019)

maomao said:


> Or maybe 'Voter' is kabbes' real name.


No, it’s “Resident”.  

And the kabbess’ real name is “Occupier”.

All kinds of businesses seem to know us.


----------



## xenon (Dec 9, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> When I had my job in New Zealand I went under a scheme where employers can say "hey, we need this guy for this job, please give him a visa". Is that open borders, or is it controlled immigration? Or is it both?
> 
> To fight both open borders (far too vague) and fortress Europe (far too explicit, in a bad way) we need slogans that refuse to define the problem in those terms. I suggest these -
> 
> ...



I think open borders as espoused by some, means total freedom of movement for anyone to any where with the same rights as the host population. I mean that's how I've come to understand it and would hazard a guess is most non politico nerds' understanding.

I agree with points 1 - 3.


----------



## ignatious (Dec 9, 2019)

MrSki said:


> There is still time for a major tory fuck up. A few more interviews like this could swing the undecideds.


I admire your optimism but I would imagine if you’re still considering voting for the tories, you’ve already priced in the fact that their leader is pure vermin.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I said that the only people who could look at the consequences of a Tory win, and the challenges facing the working class now and in those circumstances, and draw the conclusion that the key coming battle was over open borders were hobbyists.
> 
> Do you disagree?


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

The issues the electorate think are most important today are not the same thing as the political battleground chosen by a rightwing government tomorrow.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wonder what the logic is to choosing a font that looks at first glance like it's handwritten and therefore personal then addressing it to 'dear voter'



They are Lib Dems, I have hacked up phlegm that has more intelligence that that bunch of dicks.



Speaking of which, last night I altered a Winning Here poster to Whining Here that was on display next to BB2's school, this morning I went to have a look at my handiwork and they'd gone and replaced it with a fresh one. Do people who display political posters have spares on standby as a matter of routine?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The OP stated that the Tories would focus their manifesto at the next GE (presumably in 2024) around a points based immigration system and that this was the coming "battleground".
> 
> I don't think that right. Firstly, I do not believe that it will be what they base their next manifesto around. Secondly, if they did, why would their opponents focus on this issue over many other urgent issues facing the WC?
> 
> ...


Are you for or against points based immigration?
Will LeFT (however it's spelt) be for or against it. 
My money is For on both counts


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They are Lib Dems, I have hacked up phlegm that has more intelligence that that bunch of dicks.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of which, last night I altered a Winning Here poster to Whining Here that was on display next to BB2's school, this morning I went to have a look at my handiwork and they'd gone and replaced it with a fresh one. Do people who display political posters have spares on standby as a matter of routine?


The kabbess has a marker pen she keeps meaning to take with her to change them all to “wanking here”


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 9, 2019)

kabbes said:


> The kabbess has a marker pen she keeps meaning to take with her to change them all to “wanking here”



ooh, I’ll be going past the same place tonight, will give that a go...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 9, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Are you for or against points based immigration?
> Will LeFT (however it's spelt) be for or against it.
> My money is For on both counts




LeFT or whatever will be as tedious bunch of pricks as the current shower. Guaranteed.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Are you for or against points based immigration?
> Will LeFT (however it's spelt) be for or against it.
> My money is For on both counts



Then you'd be wrong (nothing new there):  Core Principles

Well done on the attempt to muddy the waters though...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> LeFT or whatever will be as tedious bunch of pricks as the current shower. Guaranteed.



Eh?


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

I once altered a 'winning here' poster to read 'fucked my grandad'. As it turned out the candidate in question was lifted for noncery a couple of years later, so I had things out by a few generations...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Eh?



Eh, what?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Eh, what?



"LeFT or whatever will be as tedious bunch of pricks as the current shower. Guaranteed". 

I don't understand what this means


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2019)

The39thStep said:


>



I would say the fact that only 16% see poverty as the main issue is an example of the failure of the wider left in the U.K.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ooh, I’ll be going past the same place tonight, will give that a go...


“Waning here” was her other option


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 9, 2019)

treelover said:


> I would say the fact that only 16% see poverty as the main issue is an example of the failure of the wider left in the U.K.



I reckon most people don’t know anyone in significant poverty - middle England/Suburban Britain is a very big place, not enough empathy to go round. Sadly you need to throw a few bones for those people too, to get the numbers for an electoral victory. Blair figured this out (not that I’m a fan). You need to show how you can make nearly everyone better off, since middle England is still being fucked over by those at the top, on pensions, housing and so on.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2019)

The39thStep said:


>


I’ve been reading a lot about discourse theory recently, and its application to social psychology, sociology and politics.  As a discipline, this would teach us to be highly suspicious of this sort of polling result.  This is because what people respond from a multiple choice list requires a kind of internal cognition that is simply not applicable to the way we actually construct our ideologies, perspectives and behaviours in the real world.  In reality, these kind of constructs derive from our interaction practices with other people, and the discourse that is driven by these interactions.  When you record real life conversations and analyse them to see what it tells you about how people think about complex situations, this doesn’t necessarily marry up with their responses via simple scores from a drop-down list of options on a questionnaire.  The real thing is subject to a lot of meta-analysis, whereby people discuss what paths others are trying to lead them down, and they choose then to accept or reject these constructs.  You don’t get any of that from questionnaires — you just get a kind of immediate reflex.


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> I reckon most people don’t know anyone in significant poverty - middle England/Suburban Britain is a very big place, not enough empathy to go round. Sadly you need to throw a few bones for those people too, to get the numbers for an electoral victory. Blair figured this out (not that I’m a fan). You need to show how you can make nearly everyone better off, since middle England is still being fucked over by those at the top, on pensions, housing and so on.



I actually agree with that, the free broadband offer was once such enticement, but overall i am not sure most people believed in Mcdonnell's offers, using the old Thatcher formula of if it was a household.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 9, 2019)

.dp


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## binka (Dec 9, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> I reckon most people don’t know anyone in significant poverty


I live in Manchester near the city centre but work in wealthy as fuck Altrincham. There's people in my office who point blank refuse to believe there's a problem with poverty, they don't think anyone would ever really need to use a food bank and if anyone does it's down to poor life choices. So yeah I agree there's an awful lot of people out there doing ok, and everyone they know is doing ok too, so what's the problem exactly?


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 9, 2019)

kabbes said:


> I’ve been reading a lot about discourse theory recently, and its application to social psychology, sociology and politics.  As a discipline, this would teach us to be highly suspicious of this sort of polling result.  This is because what people respond from a multiple choice list requires a kind of internal cognition that is simply not applicable to the way we actually construct our ideologies, perspectives and behaviours in the real world.  In reality, these kind of constructs drive from our interaction practices with other people, and the discourse that is driven by these interactions.  When you record real life conversations and analyse them to see what it tells you about how people think about complex situations, this doesn’t necessarily marry up with their responses via simple scores from a drop-down list of options on a questionnaire.  The real thing is subject to a lot of meta-analysis, whereby people discuss what paths others are trying to lead them down, and they choose then to accept or reject these constructs.  You don’t get any of that from questionnaires — you just get a kind of immediate reflex.


Yep. I  once did market research in Andersonstown, in Belfast - which is a pretty republican area - and one of the questions was "should the UK Labour Party organize and stand in elections in Northern Ireland?" (this is when Blair was still leader). One guy said to me, yes they should, but we should also be able to vote for parties from the 26 counties. And no, there was no little box I could tick for how this guy was thinking about this particular complex situation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2019)

binka said:


> I live in Manchester near the city centre but work in wealthy as fuck Altrincham. There's people in my office who point blank refuse to believe there's a problem with poverty, they don't think anyone would ever really need to use a good bank and if anyone does it's down to poor life choices. So yeah I agree there's an awful lot of people out there doing ok, and everyone they know is doing ok too, so what's the problem exactly?


An errant g has undermined your point


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 9, 2019)

It's not lack of personal knowledge that's the problem, it's how people can be presented with massive amounts of testimony and evidence (and even personal knowledge too) and contradict it, dismiss it, or simply not care.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Then you'd be wrong (nothing new there):  Core Principles
> 
> Well done on the attempt to muddy the waters though...


Happy to be proved wrong. So from that "The left in the UK must fight for the election of a government which will pursue the most egalitarian immigration and refugee policies, while at the same time working in workplaces and communities to build strong, working class anti-racist movements as a central part of the fight against racism and for migrant rights." - I take it that means against points based migration right? And against Settled Status Brexit?


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 9, 2019)

Received a personally addressed Brexit Party leaflet through the door today. Addressed only to me, not my partner, as they’ve probably not acknowledged women have the vote yet.

The whole leaflet was anti-Labour, assuring me that only the Brexit Party could address my desires.

I live in a Plaid constituency. They didn’t seem to warrant a mention. 

Idiots.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 9, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Received a personally addressed Brexit Party leaflet through the door today. Addressed only to me, not my partner, as they’ve probably not acknowledged women have the vote yet.



During the EU election, I know of women receiving such 'letters' & not their male partners.

They only get one free delivery per household, not per voter, so it seems all a bit random as to who it is addressed to.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 9, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> During the EU election, I know of women receiving such 'letters' & not their male partners.
> 
> They only get one free delivery per household, not per voter, so it seems all a bit random as to who it is addressed to.



I have passed your comments on to my partner who is now fully placated and feels the Brexit Party is obviously worthy of her vote.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 9, 2019)




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## weltweit (Dec 9, 2019)

I saw somewhere, it might have been twitter, a photo of Johnson with what might have been a discrete earpiece apparently during the last leadership debate with Corbyn. Could it be true? and if so, whose voice would he have been hearing in his ear?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 9, 2019)

cummings , or bannon 

( not entirely serious )


----------



## chilango (Dec 9, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> cummings , or bannon
> 
> ( not entirely serious )



Cummings in his ear?


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 9, 2019)

Today we had our fourth mail shot from Labour and Rosie Winterton. I have also had several letters from Len McCluskey and phone calls from Unite. Our third mailing from the brexit bastards and first from the vermin. All addressed to both of us. The Tory candidate’s CV has his serving as a special constable as his only relevant experience.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 9, 2019)




----------



## LDC (Dec 9, 2019)

weltweit said:


> I saw somewhere, it might have been twitter, a photo of Johnson with what might have been a discrete earpiece apparently during the last leadership debate with Corbyn. Could it be true? and if so, whose voice would he have been hearing in his ear?



No.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 9, 2019)

weltweit said:


> whose voice would he have been hearing in his ear?



Satan's obvs


----------



## weltweit (Dec 9, 2019)

I think this was the tweet I saw, or something like it.


----------



## killer b (Dec 9, 2019)

don't post frothing conspiracy theory please welters.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 9, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Obviously people will use their vote (or not use it) however they see fit, but given the situation where the fight in a constituency is between the Tories and the Lib Dems, I probably wouldn’t vote.
> 
> If the Tories can only be denied a majority by Lib Dem gains, that’s a Pyrrhic victory for Not Tory, because the Lib Dems will then put the Tories back in government by going into coalition. And break all their prior promises in order to ride in ministerial cars.


I'm not arguing with that,  My plea was for those of us with that dilemma.  I tactically voted Lib Dem in 2015 and though the Lib Dems didn't get in here, now my daughter is paying 9k per year in fees.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 9, 2019)

Is a weird ear though, never seen one with flaps


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 9, 2019)

Nicola Sturgeon has been visiting my late grandad’s club. Been there to prise him out many a time.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is a weird ear though, never seen one with flaps



He's a seventeenth generation cousin-fucker it would be weirder if he had normal ears.


----------



## steveo87 (Dec 9, 2019)

weltweit said:


> View attachment 192448
> I think this was the tweet I saw, or something like it.


Maybe those Michael Spicer videos on twitter AREN'T satire.



(I mean, THEY ARE, but...you know...*if*)


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 9, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Nicola Sturgeon has been visiting my late grandad’s club. Been there to prise him out many a time.


There will no doubt be mutterings, that is not her seat!!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 9, 2019)

two letters in the post today from the limp dems (they really are throwing everything at getting back in to second place in this safe tory seat)

one from brian paddick - crime, police, cuts etc etc

the other included a form to send back (freepost) to fill in with name and address to give permission to have a LD sign on a stick in my garden.

wonder if john redwood's constituency address is in the public domain?


----------



## eoin_k (Dec 9, 2019)

Tory advert for a youtube video: does it cost them more money if I click on the link?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 9, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Tory advert for a youtube video: does it cost them more money if I click on the link?


It tells them to do it again. So don't.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 9, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Tory advert for a youtube video: does it cost them more money if I click on the link?



Dunno but it'll make the video look more popular, and possibly bring it to the attention of more and bigger algorithms. Not worth it tbh, these fuckers never spend their own money anyway.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 9, 2019)

Is Hugh Grant (of all people) working for the tories?



Spoiler


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 9, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Tory advert for a youtube video: does it cost them more money if I click on the link?


right click the video and watch incognito if you want to see it, it won't be added to your suggestions or stats


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 9, 2019)

weltweit said:


> and if so, whose voice would he have been hearing in his ear?



Putin.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 9, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Putin.


He doesn't need an earpiece for that.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 9, 2019)

Why do politicians pull pints for the cameras?

(Corbyn’s is all head too).


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 9, 2019)

Look at that sweaty leer and those big sausage fingers, disgusting, I'm not saying he is a sex offender but he does look like one


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 9, 2019)

(I'm not saying he isn't either, I just don't know)


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 9, 2019)

In response to Marty 1
To appear as if they are of the people


----------



## teuchter (Dec 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Speaking of which, last night I altered a Winning Here poster to Whining Here that was on display next to BB2's school, this morning I went to have a look at my handiwork and they'd gone and replaced it with a fresh one. Do people who display political posters have spares on standby as a matter of routine?



I'd like to think your handiwork was removed because it wasn't good enough. A good alteration requires only addition of elements, not removal of them, from the already extant lettering. Yours doesn't work. Fudging it doesn't cut it. The best I have seen recently were a series of FLAT EARTH SOCIETY graffiti that had become PEATY EARTH SOCIETY.


----------



## agricola (Dec 9, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> View attachment 192454
> View attachment 192455
> 
> Why do politicians pull pints for the cameras?
> ...



Corbyn doesn't drink, and Johnson is pouring a cider.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Look at that sweaty leer and those big sausage fingers, disgusting, I'm not saying he is a sex offender but he does look like one


Full on wrong'un in so many pics.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Full on wrong'un in so many pics.


Might sound a bit woo this but you can tell a bit about somebody from their resting face and his resting face is that of a right cunt


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Might sound a bit woo this but you can tell a bit about somebody from their resting face and his resting face is that of a right cunt


Remember his nonce-wing look a while back?


----------



## treelover (Dec 9, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Nicola Sturgeon has been visiting my late grandad’s club. Been there to prise him out many a time.


she definetely has the ordinary/human touch


----------



## gosub (Dec 9, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> View attachment 192454
> View attachment 192455
> 
> Why do politicians pull pints for the cameras?
> ...




If it all goes tits up for them can't see any of them doing deliveroo.  
Good to have some proof of having at some capability of doing something useful


----------



## Anju (Dec 9, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> Tory advert for a youtube video: does it cost them more money if I click on the link?



They have paid for it to be top add for the 3 days before election. If you go on YouTube with a UK IP address the add will be there. 

No idea if they pay extra for clicks.


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 9, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Remember his nonce-wing look a while back?
> 
> View attachment 192457



His eyes are getting more like Maggies as time goes by


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 10, 2019)

xenon said:


> Open borders is a misnoma anyway, No mainstream political public argument exists in favour of them and there's no apetite for open borders in the populas at large.
> 
> Immigration isn't going away as a contencious subject any time soon though. With likely just more rhetoric about how to control it. Personly I'm not in favour of open borders but neither a fortress Europe approach.



Immigration was a contentious subject even when Windrush ship came here.

I'm in Brixton/ Loughborough Junction ( Lambeth London) Large Black British population whose parents came from Carribbean. Post WW2 for a period there was open borders in the British Empire and Commonwealth. I know someone who mother came her from Nigeria just before it became an independent country. So her mother was a British subject and had full rights to come to London . Yes for a short period after WW2 a lot of Black people were British because they lived in British colonies like Nigeria.

Due to so called "mainstream" " no appetite for open borders" "populas at large" in 70s Commonwealth subjects gradually lost the rights they had to come here. Which ended up with some of them having to fight deportation in their later years. I know some people in my area who have had problems.

Immigration policies are about keeping people out. Its something the "mainstream" in my largely working class Black community are all to aware of. As well as the anti immigrant / racism that underlay so called controlling immigration.

So my point is "populas at large" depends on where one lives.

In my area they would like the rights to open borders in Commonwealth restored.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2019)

The arguments and rhetoric are depressingly similar to those that appeared in the early 60s when those Commonwealth rights to come here were first curtailed. Taking our jobs, taking our housing, driving down wages, _living here like it's they're still in their own country. _It was all said then as well. Didn't think that last bit of nasty racist cuntishness would be coming from a British prime minister's mouth in 2019, but here we are and it does, and he may well win.

Add to that Britain's ongoing totally shit record for taking in refugees. The idea that the UK is immigrant-friendly is a bit of a sick joke. If the racist Johnson wins on Thursday, it will continue to get worse.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 10, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> View attachment 192454
> View attachment 192455



I was intending to vote Labour this coming Thursday, but then I saw him collaborating with  Yank ultra-rubbish "beer"  x 25,000


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 10, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The arguments and rhetoric are depressingly similar to those that appeared in the early 60s when those Commonwealth rights to come here were first curtailed. Taking our jobs, taking our housing, driving down wages, _living here like it's they're still in their own country. _It was all said then as well. Didn't think that last bit of nasty racist cuntishness would be coming from a British prime minister's mouth in 2019, but here we are and it does, and he may well win.
> 
> Add to that Britain's ongoing totally shit record for taking in refugees. The idea that the UK is immigrant-friendly is a bit of a sick joke. If the racist Johnson wins on Thursday, it will continue to get worse.



I think this explains why imo the Labour vote will hold up in inner London. Black British working class in my area aren't going to vote Tory or Brexit party as ( and I've had this said to me) the Tory party is racist and anyone who votes for a party with Farage in it is a racist- UKIP or Brexit party. Same goes for someone like me whose spent most of working life/ living with first or second generation migrants.

I've been a bit surprised at work by those say who are they definitely voting Labour with no reluctance. Doesn't fit the mainstream media reports of Labour voters.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2019)

Labour will hold all their London seats and possibly pick up some more. Dog-whistle racism doesn't work here, as Goldsmith discovered, let alone the plain racism racism that Johnson has adopted.

Not sure that says much about what will happen elsewhere, though. One of the big lies is the one about London being 'remain' because it's a 'metropolitan elite'. Anyone who lives here knows that is not true - it was the most working class bits of London that voted most strongly remain, ffs. But how much that false narrative rings true elsewhere, I don't know. There is much talk about 'remain bubbles', but if they exist then there are equally 'leave bubbles' where people seem not to grasp, or frankly care, why others are so fearful of the nasty forces unleashed by brexit.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 10, 2019)

agricola said:


> Corbyn doesn't drink, and Johnson is pouring a cider.


 
Trump doesn’t drink either, is there a link?


----------



## NoXion (Dec 10, 2019)

It doesn't matter anyway. It's not like Coors is a real beer or anything.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2019)

un fucking believeable.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 10, 2019)

Funny how those people used the exact same wording.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2019)

uncanny.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 10, 2019)

And I suppose the NHS wait times being the worst record in recent decades is also just a total coincidence.


----------



## andysays (Dec 10, 2019)

bimble said:


> un fucking believeable.View attachment 192478
> 
> View attachment 192479
> View attachment 192481
> ...


Johnson didn't doubt its veracity though, he refused to look at it


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2019)

Useful heuristic for cuntitude.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

this guy is doing some sterling work about online viral stories - click through to see his analysis of the Leed sick kid misinformation campaign.


----------



## chilango (Dec 10, 2019)

I would caution those behind this strategy..._be careful what you wish for_.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 10, 2019)

*Exciting Election Leaflet News!!!!!!
*
Two leaflets yesterday - one Tory, one Labour. The Tory one is half and half local and brexit, lots of pictures of non-entity MP pointing at things and standing next to Johnson who clearly doesn't know who he is. 

The Labour one is more interesting - it's _entirely _local. There's not one single image of Corbyn, or mention of his name, or even the words 'Labour Government'.


----------



## LDC (Dec 10, 2019)

It's all high adrenaline in our house as well, 2 leaflets on the SAME DAY! One Brexit Party and one Labour. The highlight of the Brexit Party one was a photo of their candidate standing by a street sign and pointing at it for no clear reason. It's definitely persuaded me...


----------



## Badgers (Dec 10, 2019)

bimble said:


> un fucking believeable.View attachment 192478
> 
> View attachment 192479
> View attachment 192481
> ...


Old Alison Pearson has a bit of previous looking at this twitter thread


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 10, 2019)

kebabking said:


> *Exciting Election Leaflet News!!!!!!
> *
> Two leaflets yesterday - one Tory, one Labour. The Tory one is half and half local and brexit, lots of pictures of non-entity MP pointing at things and standing next to Johnson who clearly doesn't know who he is.
> 
> The Labour one is more interesting - it's _entirely _local. There's not one single image of Corbyn, or mention of his name, or even the words 'Labour Government'.



The Tory candidate here seems to have decided the environment is the route to go down, oddly enough. Lots of claims about her supposed green credentials.

The Labour incumbent is basically 'Remain Remain Remain!'


----------



## NoXion (Dec 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> I would caution those behind this strategy..._be careful what you wish for_.


I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 10, 2019)

The reason Johnson is doing racist stuff in Sunderland is because he believes that working class communities in the north are racist.


----------



## chilango (Dec 10, 2019)

NoXion said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate?



Discrediting electoral politics and removing any possibility of trust in liberal democracy.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2019)

Feels like we have already reached the point where not only are obvious barefaced lies completely normal and accepted but something being demonstrably true no longer matters, if you dont like a fact you can just call it a lie and people who share your objectives will happily go along with that. i know this is common knowledge but watching the spread of this madness around the child on the hospital floor has really brought it home. Doesn't even make any sense at all as a defence of Johnsons behaviour but successfully changes the story.


----------



## tommers (Dec 10, 2019)

bimble said:


> Feels like we have already reached the point where not only are obvious barefaced lies completely normal and accepted but something being demonstrably true no longer matters, if you dont like a fact you can just call it a lie and people who share your objectives will happily go along with that. i know this is common knowledge but watching the spread of this madness around the child on the hospital floor has really brought it home. Doesn't even make any sense at all as a defence of Johnsons behaviour but successfully changes the story.


Because it means you don't have to question the choices you've made. Kid lying on a pile of coats? Never happened. Carry on. Nothing to worry about. You're a good person.


----------



## Winot (Dec 10, 2019)

bimble said:


> Feels like we have already reached the point where not only are obvious barefaced lies completely normal and accepted but something being demonstrably true no longer matters, if you dont like a fact you can just call it a lie and people who share your objectives will happily go along with that. i know this is common knowledge but watching the spread of this madness around the child on the hospital floor has really brought it home. Doesn't even make any sense at all as a defence of Johnsons behaviour but successfully changes the story.



It’s really depressing I agree but we can’t tell yet how successful it has been at changing the story.


----------



## rekil (Dec 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Discrediting electoral politics and removing any possibility of trust in liberal democracy.


This is PDSCHA's strategy. It's in their video. 



Spoiler


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2019)

bimble said:


> Feels like we have already reached the point where not only are obvious barefaced lies completely normal and accepted but something being demonstrably true no longer matters, if you dont like a fact you can just call it a lie and people who share your objectives will happily go along with that. i know this is common knowledge but watching the spread of this madness around the child on the hospital floor has really brought it home. Doesn't even make any sense at all as a defence of Johnsons behaviour but successfully changes the story.



Feels very much we're in the "shouting at each other and not backing down" stages of a fight.

Don't think we've got any mates to take us away and calm us down either.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Discrediting electoral politics and removing any possibility of trust in liberal democracy.


What if your long-term political objectives don't really include electoral politics and liberal democracy?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 10, 2019)

something on the bbc this morning about how parties are putting out fake news and faked videos on social media

the fucking bbc


----------



## chilango (Dec 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> What if your long-term political objectives don't really include electoral politics and liberal democracy?



Indeed.

I'm not sure that'll work out for them. Electoral politics has been very useful for the social stability capital has needed.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Discrediting electoral politics and removing any possibility of trust in liberal democracy.


Great isn't it, crack on, something's brewing


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I'm not sure that'll work out for them. Electoral politics has been very useful for the social stability capital has needed.


electoral politics has been really shit in many other ways. there's inbuilt short-termism. where i work there's an institution-wide strategy working towards a vision for the mid-2030s. you can't say that for the country, no one knows what the country's going to be like in 3 years let alone 13. i'd have thought capital could have done better with a government which didn't face the prospect of being ousted every few years, one which might really take difficult decisions about eg climate change and infrastructure - and perhaps even get the decisions right and see them through.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I'm not sure that'll work out for them. Electoral politics has been very useful for the social stability capital has needed.


_has been_ in the past tense.


----------



## Teaboy (Dec 10, 2019)

Well, its all looking pretty grim at the moment but maybe there is some sort of optimism to be gained out of this.  Johnson may win this election but I reckon he's fucked it longer term.  Of course he won't give a shit about that.

In recent history the tories have normally been punished for moving even further rightwards.  It took an absolute financial meltdown and a one nation tory to get them back into power and even then it was only in a coalition.  Even May was hit pretty hard in 2017 by just a slight shift rightwards.

This is a brexit election and it really an open goal for the even righter wing of the tory party.  When the immediacy of brexit drifts away and we're left the reality of what a Johnson government means I am hopeful that it'll leave the tories unelectable for a decade or more.  Of course what replaces them may not be much better, but still...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> electoral politics has been really shit in many other ways. there's inbuilt short-termism. where i work there's an institution-wide strategy working towards a vision for the mid-2030s. you can't say that for the country, no one knows what the country's going to be like in 3 years let alone 13. i'd have thought capital could have done better with a government which didn't face the prospect of being ousted every few years, one which might really take difficult decisions about eg climate change and infrastructure - and perhaps even get the decisions right and see them through.



By keeping elections short term it's done pretty well at stopping governments being focused on anything but the short term and the short term has nearly always benefited capital. 

Look at right to buy, long term that was unsustainable but no government has had the balls to revoke it and they are perpetually afraid to address the issues from it lest it cost them the next election.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> By keeping elections short term it's done pretty well at stopping governments being focused on anything but the short term and the short term has nearly always benefited capital.
> 
> Look at right to buy, long term that was unsustainable but no government has had the balls to revoke it and they are perpetually afraid to address the issues from it lest it cost them the next election.


you say the short term has nearly always benefited capital but i note you do not place it in comparison to anything. yeh it's often enough done quite nicely out of some decisions made. but i suspect that if decisions had been made with longer term interests in mind that there might have been more significant gains. and there have been times when this short-termism has been nearly disastrous - for example, the interwar period when rearmament did not begin until the mid to late 1930s.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 10, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> By keeping elections short term it's done pretty well at stopping governments being focused on anything but the short term and the short term has nearly always benefited capital.
> 
> Look at right to buy, long term that was unsustainable but no government has had the balls to revoke it and they are perpetually afraid to address the issues from it lest it cost them the next election.


Right to buy ended was ended by the SNP in Scotland a few years ago.

Right to buy ends in Scotland - gov.scot

We have new schemes to assist home-buyers but it's _mainly_ new builds. Getting help to buy your home - mygov.scot


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2019)

Weather forecast for Thursday is heavy rain. Will this keep the oldies in their bungalows and thus deliver the nation to Corbyn? Probably not.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Weather forecast for Thursday is heavy rain.


Bloody hell; sod the election, I'm supposed to be walking round Kew on Thursday evening


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 10, 2019)

Finally had some election leaflets. Brexit party and Labour. Labour candidate claims he's "The only candidate to stand up for here in parliament." Hardly suprising as he's the standing MP.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Bloody hell; sod the election, I'm supposed to be walking round Kew on Thursday evening



At least it'll be quiet


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> At least it'll be quiet


Depends on the wind direction on the day.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Depends on the wind direction on the day.



Give the treetop walkway a miss in high winds.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2019)

Bit more prosaic than that. It's right under the Heathrow flight path. It's noisy as hell on the wrong day.


----------



## red & green (Dec 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Weather forecast for Thursday is heavy rain. Will this keep the oldies in their bungalows and thus deliver the nation to Corbyn? Probably not.



postal vote


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2019)

bimble said:


> Feels like we have already reached the point where not only are obvious barefaced lies completely normal and accepted but something being demonstrably true no longer matters, if you dont like a fact you can just call it a lie and people who share your objectives will happily go along with that. i know this is common knowledge but watching the spread of this madness around the child on the hospital floor has really brought it home. Doesn't even make any sense at all as a defence of Johnsons behaviour but successfully changes the story.


Re deliberate lying and fake stories, my impression is there's a degree of generational devide about how effective it is as a strategy... Anecdotally for example my dad couldn't be more gullible in response to this kind of thing if he tried, whereas I get the impression younger people are less taken in and more vigilant, especially those socialised in the social media age. It's an impression, can't say how true it is.l, nor that it makes anything much better.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> electoral politics has been really shit in many other ways. there's inbuilt short-termism. where i work there's an institution-wide strategy working towards a vision for the mid-2030s. you can't say that for the country, no one knows what the country's going to be like in 3 years let alone 13. i'd have thought capital could have done better with a government which didn't face the prospect of being ousted every few years, one which might really take difficult decisions about eg climate change and infrastructure - and perhaps even get the decisions right and see them through.



I've probably told this story here already but it addresses this point. I was at some Dementia training a couple of years ago and the trainer was one of the top health advisors on it in the 80's. He said they knew that we would get to current situation and his team constantly raised the issue with governments, but none of them were interested as it was to far off to worry about today. We are paying for that now.

Many of the acts and changes that are put in place take 10-15 years to be fully implemented and verified, but everything being ripped up every couple of years due to drive to keep in power at all cost massively hampers this.

It's the same with building transport networks. Local people don't understand they take time to be built so any new scheme gets panned due to the immediate disruption it causes and the apparently small affect. Failing to see that once things are connected and built upon they will hopefully improve. I say hopefully as I probably don't trust our council either, but the point remains!


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Re deliberate lying and fake stories, my impression is there's a degree of generational devide about how effective it is as a strategy... Anecdotally for example my dad couldn't be more gullible in response to this kind of thing if he tried, whereas I get the impression younger people are less taken in and more vigilant, especially those socialised in the social media age. It's an impression, can't say how true it is.l, nor that it makes anything much better.


yeah its true, and it does help to remember that younger people less easily fooled
Older people more likely to share fake news on Facebook, study finds
but disbelieving / dismissing things that are true is in a way more worrying and i dunno if generalised extreme cynicism is the end result of all this.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 10, 2019)

Polls poised between about 6% lead (hung parliament-ish) and 15% (the horror, the horror...). But whilst the Tory leads are all over the place I suspect the real lead has been set in stone for a while. Lots of voters self describe as not yet decided and Labour will have a final bash on the NHS + the photo of the kiddie on the floor in A&E, so, who knows. Same time, it doesn't feel like the campaign has shifted the fundamental dynamics of the election. This is still about Brexit and Labour's vacillation/loss of working class voters. Realise that's a bit broad brush and the election has different issues in place in different parts of the country. But I'm trying to get at the 'feel of it' - and it feels like the playing out of the referendum and the grim inevitability of it all.


----------



## elbows (Dec 10, 2019)

bimble said:


> but disbelieving / dismissing things that are true is in a way more worrying and i dunno if generalised extreme cynicism is the end result of all this.



Its partly the other way round - decades of mounting cynicism due to shit 'mainstream' politics, economics etc is the backdrop that allows some of the modern sinister manipulations to thrive.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 10, 2019)

Well, well, well...... 

Corbyn criticism was 'banter', says Jonathan Ashworth

I'm not one for conspiracy. But this feels like a deliberate attempt to damage Corbyn/left social democrats), to prepare the ground for the coming battles and to get ahead of the narrative. It is inconceivable, given the timing and the press onslaught, that a Shadow Cabinet member would allow himself to be recorded by a TORY ( or in fact even have the conversation with him) otherwise in my view.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

He thought he was chatting to a mate. Whatever happens his career is torpedoed now, so there's zero chance he was in on it IMO. The release of it is defo to fuck a second day of NHS stuff though, and some sweet headlines for the papers tomorrow.

two lessons: 

fuck the broad church, no centrists in cabinet, and
fuck having tory mates.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 10, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Well, well, well......
> 
> Corbyn criticism was 'banter', says Jonathan Ashworth
> 
> I'm not one for conspiracy. But this feels like a deliberate attempt to damage Corbyn/left social democrats), to prepare the ground for the coming battles and to get ahead of the narrative. It is inconceivable, given the timing and the press onslaught, that a Shadow Cabinet member would allow himself to be recorded by a TORY ( or in fact even have the conversation with him) otherwise in my view.



Not my experience of party politics _at all. _ I believe Ashworth entirely, though I think he's being a little disingenuous when he ascribes his recorded pessimism wholey to 'banter' or 'joshing' - I would take it as being an exaggerated, comedic-effect polemic take on his actual views, but containing more than a grain of his own truth.

My experience of party politics - and indeed workplace politics - is that often the only people you can be entirely truthful with, in private, are your opponents.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Re deliberate lying and fake stories, my impression is there's a degree of generational devide about how effective it is as a strategy... Anecdotally for example my dad couldn't be more gullible in response to this kind of thing if he tried, whereas I get the impression younger people are less taken in and more vigilant, especially those socialised in the social media age. It's an impression, can't say how true it is.l, nor that it makes anything much better.


I think younger people are also very susceptible to sharing and boosting stuff from dodgy sources that confirms their wordview - it's just that their worldview tends to be quite different to the worldview of the greyhairs (and more in tune with yours) so it's less noticeable. There's also a difference in style - much of the claims of bot activity from this leeds hospital disinformation campaign are actually real accounts, just fat fingered greyhairs copying and pasting stuff with no explanation like they do every other latest chain status craze and the like. Kids just don't do that.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> He thought he was chatting to a mate. Whatever happens his career is torpedoed now, so there's zero chance he was in on it IMO. The release of it is defo to fuck a second day of NHS stuff though, and some sweet headlines for the papers tomorrow.



He was fucked anyway - he's useless. 

Is it really conceivable that a shadow minister would talk so openly, at this time, to a Tory? How many people secretly record their close mates? How did he know to record that particular chat? 

I don't buy it.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is it really conceivable that a shadow minister would talk so openly, at this time, to a Tory?


Yeah, it is. The centrists think they're all mates.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 10, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Not my experience of party politics _at all. _ I believe Ashworth entirely, though I think he's being a little disingenuous when he ascribes his recorded pessimism wholey to 'banter' or 'joshing' - I would take it as being an exaggerated, comedic-effect polemic take on his actual views, but containing more than a grain of his own truth.
> 
> My experience of party politics - and indeed workplace politics - is that often the only people you can be entirely truthful with, in private, are your opponents.



Really? So you are suggesting Cabinet Ministers and their opposites will have spent the election period ringing up members of the other party to slag off their own leader in a manner which just so happens to absolutely accord with the media narrative about them?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> Yeah, it is. The centrists think they're all mates.



Given the timing, as you yourself acknowledge this is the Shadow Health Secretary knocking the NHS story off the front pages, its disastrously bad timing to have called a tory chum for a good old bitch about Jeremy.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Given the timing, as you yourself acknowledge this is the Shadow Health Secretary knocking the NHS story off the front pages, its disastrously bad timing to have called a tory chum for a good old bitch about Jeremy.


It's not from today.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's not from today.



I know. But he is quoted talking about 'the last week of the campaign' indicating it was very recent.

His explanation - "i was trying to use a football management technique to lull the opposition into a false sense of security by talking down our chances" also looks like lies. If that's the case why talk about the security services moving against Corbyn, the failed coups and other matters entirely irrelevant to that?


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

Oh, his _excuse_ is bullshit. His mate rang him up and asked him how the campaign was going and he told him it was going shit, in detail. Like you do when your mate rings you up and asks you how things are going and they're going shit.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> Oh, his _excuse_ is bullshit. His mate rang him up and asked him how the campaign was going and he told him it was going shit, in detail. Like you do when your mate rings you up and asks you how things are going and they're going shit.



Indeed.

That his mate recorded it and this is now news is going to be interesting. If the parties now no longer separate personal from party politics then that's an escalation and a large division.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 10, 2019)

Liam Byrne's note that there was no money left was all part of this blokey wink wink game that they (MPs) play with each other.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

All those cunts who spent the last couple of years shaming people who said they wouldn't be friends with a tory. This is why.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Liam Byrne's note that there was no money left was all part of this blokey wink wink game that they (MPs) play with each other.


And used in the exact same way. It's not new.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 10, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Really? So you are suggesting Cabinet Ministers and their opposites will have spent the election period ringing up members of the other party to slag off their own leader in a manner which just so happens to absolutely accord with the media narrative about them?



In stark terms, yes.

You think that Tories don't despise Johnson for his dishonesty, and don't vent about it with people they know from work, then you've not been paying attention.

In (party) politics, the opposition are only the opposition, your _enemies _are sitting behind you.


----------



## campanula (Dec 10, 2019)

Tory mates - ha ha ha. Vicious mendacious scum to the last man or woman


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 10, 2019)

kebabking said:


> In stark terms, yes.
> 
> You think that Tories don't despise Johnson for his dishonesty, and don't vent about it with people they know from work, then you've not been paying attention.



I look forward to the leaked recordings....


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Polls poised between about 6% lead (hung parliament-ish) and 15% (the horror, the horror...). But whilst the Tory leads are all over the place I suspect the real lead has been set in stone for a while. Lots of voters self describe as not yet decided and Labour will have a final bash on the NHS + the photo of the kiddie on the floor in A&E, so, who knows. Same time, it doesn't feel like the campaign has shifted the fundamental dynamics of the election. This is still about Brexit and Labour's vacillation/loss of working class voters. Realise that's a bit broad brush and the election has different issues in place in different parts of the country. But I'm trying to get at the 'feel of it' - and it feels like the playing out of the referendum and the grim inevitability of it all.



Raises the question of how bad is shit going to have to get before fewer than 40% of the population thinks the tories are suitable people to be running the country.


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Dec 10, 2019)

Not sure the ashworth thing does Labour much harm tbh. Everyone who isn't scared of Corbyn becoming PM is voting Labour whatever. The extra votes will come from people who want to fuck up Boris as long as Corbyn doesn't get in, who might take some solace in this.


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2019)

Utterly discredited, lazy, useless 'journalists.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2019)




----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 192522


Hopefully supplied by Acme!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Weather forecast for Thursday is heavy rain. Will this keep the oldies in their bungalows and thus deliver the nation to Corbyn? Probably not.


Probably worth sharing the *Breaking* news that the Met Office have issued an exceptional "Blue" Weather Warning that old (tory) folks* should stay inside between the hours of 7.00am & 10.00pm on Thursday to avoid the combined hazards of heavy rain, strong, gusty winds and cold temperatures.

*unless they're PV, in which case they can go out and do what they want.


----------



## strung out (Dec 10, 2019)

Chuka Umunna's sending out letters to voters in Lab/Can marginals telling people to vote for the Lib Dems instead of Labour: Darren Jones hits out at ex-colleague for 'helping the Tories'


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2019)

strung out said:


> Chuka Umunna's sending out letters to voters in Lab/Can marginals telling people to vote for the Lib Dems instead of Labour: Darren Jones hits out at ex-colleague for 'helping the Tories'


All part of his personal 'journey'


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

Great story here on the BBC, reporting analysis of political advertising, and how much of it is inaccurate (ie, full of lies). _General election 2019: Ads are 'indecent, dishonest and untruthful'_ the headline reads - surely this means all parties are lying through their arses?

well. 

_for the Conservatives, it said that 88% (5,952) of the party's most widely promoted ads either featured claims which had been flagged by independent fact-checking organisations including BBC Reality Check as not correct or not entirely correct._
_
for the Lib Dems, it said hundreds of potentially misleading ads had featured identical unlabelled graphs, with no indication of the source data, to claim it was the only party that could beat either Labour, the Conservatives or the SNP "in seats like yours"
_
and finally, surely Labour is a massive shitshow too? Oh.

_for Labour, it said that it could not find any misleading claims in ads run over the period. _


----------



## Badgers (Dec 10, 2019)




----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2019)

Badgers said:


>



You wouldn't think that 'trust' & 'children' were topics that they'd immediately want to raise?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 10, 2019)

Yet they choose to illustrate the article on the BBC with a Corbyn Facebook post.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 10, 2019)

Badgers said:


>


That is absolutely unhinged the fucking weirdos


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Yet they choose to illustrate the article on the BBC with a Corbyn Facebook post.


Funny that.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 10, 2019)

Badgers said:


>



Weird.  Rachel is on my block list but I see her tweet here.  Learn something new every day.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 10, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> That is absolutely unhinged the fucking weirdos


I'd like to think it's a sign they've been rattled by something. . .


----------



## treelover (Dec 10, 2019)

If labour do better than expected due to the youth vote, etc, then the cleavage with the traditional working class will get wider, as the former make demands, etc.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

what demands will the youth make that the _traditional_ working class won't be able to bear?


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Dec 10, 2019)

treelover said:


> If labour do better than expected due to the youth vote, etc, then the cleavage with the traditional working class will get wider, as the former make demands, etc.



Plenty of young working class people mate.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Dec 10, 2019)

treelover said:


> If labour do better than expected due to the youth vote, etc, then the cleavage with the traditional working class will get wider, as the former make demands, etc.


because young people are somehow not working class?


----------



## existentialist (Dec 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 192522


Could have been worse. He could have had an Acme ONE TON weight dropped on top of him, rendering him pancake-shaped for a few minutes until he went *pop* and regained his "normal" shape...


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 10, 2019)

killer b said:


> what demands will the youth make that the _traditional_ working class won't be able to bear?


something, something, avocado.


----------



## treelover (Dec 10, 2019)

I guarantee they will make different demands than a sixty year old ex miner.


----------



## elbows (Dec 10, 2019)

When I was young I didnt like long division. You seem to be a fan of it. Divided we stand, united we fall, mind if I rest my crap in the generation gap?


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

treelover said:


> I guarantee they will make different demands than a sixty year old ex miner.


tell us some of the points of friction.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2019)

POint has already been made about the weather but checking the latest forecast for around the country its looking pretty torrential all day and pretty much everywhere. Chilly too. (unless the bbc have lied about that as well)


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 10, 2019)

ska invita said:


> POint has already been made about the weather but checking the latest forecast for around the country its looking pretty torrential all day and pretty much everywhere. Chilly too. (unless the bbc have lied about that as well)


Fuck's sake


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 10, 2019)

He these thru the letterbox today - the Labour one came in an envelope!


Spoiler


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

There is zero correlation between weather and turnout in general elections, so don't sweat it.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 10, 2019)

Came home to Labour, Tory and Brexit Party leaflets. Actually two Brexit Party ones, got the one addressed to the flat opposite too. They won't be getting it, and I'm pretty sure they'll be ok with that.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 10, 2019)

plenty on the doormat today.

one from labour, fairly basic, selling the policies they have set out 

one from the lib dems - "do you trust boris with our NHS?" - no, and i don't trust the lib dems who voted for all david cameron's cuts

two from the tories - one "jeremy corbyn wants you to vote lib dem" - strange, labour were second here the last couple of times, one "more money for everything, tax cuts for everyone, greener and better area" (the latter seems to mean not building any new homes for poor people)


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 10, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> two from the tories - one "jeremy corbyn wants you to vote lib dem" - strange, labour were second here the last couple of times


Is that some weird double-bluff thing, splitting the opposition vote by conning people into thinking voting Lib Dem is the anti-Tory vote?


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 10, 2019)

Don’t think we’ve had a Lib Dem flyer unless the girlfriend has thrown it away


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2019)

Some Labour party mate has given our house a Labour poster to put up in the front window. This is a guaranteed Labour seat, and you can't really see our front window from anywhere because there's a wall and trees in the way, but I'm confident someone will get around to putting it up round about Friday lunchtime.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 10, 2019)

Fourth mailing from Brexit mob in six days. Says I must not vote labour and vote for a party that will get Brexit sorted. My choice is a Tory ex special constable or a Sikh market trader.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Is that some weird double-bluff thing, splitting the opposition vote by conning people into thinking voting Lib Dem is the anti-Tory vote?



That is the whole and entire lib dem strategy yes.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 10, 2019)

Here is a voter.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That is the whole and entire lib dem strategy yes.


But it's on the _Tory_ leaflet.


----------



## killer b (Dec 10, 2019)

what's this video and why should we watch it?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 10, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Polls poised between about 6% lead (hung parliament-ish) and 15% (the horror, the horror...). But whilst the Tory leads are all over the place I suspect the real lead has been set in stone for a while. Lots of voters self describe as not yet decided and Labour will have a final bash on the NHS + the photo of the kiddie on the floor in A&E, so, who knows. Same time, it doesn't feel like the campaign has shifted the fundamental dynamics of the election. This is still about Brexit and Labour's vacillation/loss of working class voters. Realise that's a bit broad brush and the election has different issues in place in different parts of the country. But I'm trying to get at the 'feel of it' - and it feels like the playing out of the referendum and the grim inevitability of it all.



In my area inner London where the working class is Remain and votes Labour their is a frustration that the emphasis in media is that the working class voter is from up North. Today at work we had the radio on and the BBC were interviewing yet again a Labour voter from somewhere up North who said they had voted for Labour but will vote for Boris this time as " he will get the job done". This elicited groans from my fellow workers.

For working class people I know in inner London they really want a Labour government ( not New Labour) who will deal with issues of housing, UC, knife crime, loss of youth services, cost of living.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jon Ashworth in leaked phone call to his Tory friend activist says Corbyn has no chance.

Victory for Corbyn? No chance, says Labour frontbencher Jon Ashworth


----------



## flypanam (Dec 10, 2019)

Liverpool fans disagree


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2019)

crossthebreeze said:


> because young people are somehow not working class?



Having a degree and working in Starbucks precludes people being working class according to the narrative.


Sooner or later society is really going to need to update the definition of working class and agree on it because frankly everyone's operating from a different book these days.


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 10, 2019)

We got a tory leaflet yesterday. Today, we got them from Brexit party, Lib Dems and Labour. All went straight in the bin.


----------



## Winot (Dec 10, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Having a degree and working in Starbucks precludes people being working class according to the narrative.
> 
> 
> Sooner or later society is really going to need to update the definition of working class and agree on it because frankly everyone's operating from a different book these days.



It’s broader than you think.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 10, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Having a degree and working in Starbucks precludes people being working class according to the narrative.
> 
> 
> Sooner or later society is really going to need to update the definition of working class and agree on it because frankly everyone's operating from a different book these days.



It doesn’t help that people throw out tired cultural stereotypes about what working class should be, like it’s a fucking uniform rather than the status of your labour.  I suspect this is deliberate to prevent wider class identity/solidarity, so suburban office workers see themselves as somehow middle class despite being exploited just the same way.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 10, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It doesn’t help that people throw out tired cultural stereotypes about what working class should be, like it’s a fucking uniform rather than the status of your labour. I suspect this is deliberate to prevent wider class identity/solidarity, so suburban office workers see themselves as somehow middle class despite being exploited just the same way.



seems to come both from some 'i'm proper working class, me' types in one direction, and from the daily mail etc in the other...


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 10, 2019)

Received a Dear Voter letter from Nigel today, it went straight in the bin.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Having a degree and working in Starbucks precludes people being working class according to the narrative.
> 
> 
> Sooner or later society is really going to need to update the definition of working class and agree on it because frankly everyone's operating from a different book these days.


Fair point but lets  not have the Paul Mason one in which the new w/class is the connected city worker(prob with a degree)  who is up for a coalition with the middle classes against 'the mob' who voted for Brexit. The fact that the Tories lead Labour amongst working class voters says something about how far in some parts of the country the left has failed the w/class. Reparing that ,if its possible,  is going to need more than just a discussion on who is working class.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 10, 2019)

fishfinger said:


> We got a tory leaflet yesterday. Today, we got them from Brexit party, Lib Dems and Labour. All went straight in the bin.



Recycling bin I hope!


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 10, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Recycling bin I hope!


Of course 
<polishes halo>


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2019)

fishfinger said:


> Of course
> <polishes halo>



Better class of landfill


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 10, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Better class of landfill


The people's landfill.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 10, 2019)

fishfinger said:


> The people's landfill.



In the grounds of the liberated stately homes, come the glorious day!


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> In the grounds of the liberated stately homes, come the glorious day!



The grounds of the peoples' liberated stately homes you mean?


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 10, 2019)

two sheds said:


> The grounds of the peoples' liberated stately homes you mean?


Of course.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 10, 2019)

Well this might make a slight difference. Hopefully if the press run with it which is unlikely.



ETA Strap yourselves in folks, one of the political stories of the century is brewing... • Dorset Eye


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> It doesn’t help that people throw out tired cultural stereotypes about what working class should be, like it’s a fucking uniform rather than the status of your labour.  I suspect this is deliberate to prevent wider class identity/solidarity, so suburban office workers see themselves as somehow middle class despite being exploited just the same way.



I do think a lot of the energy that could be spent on the class struggle is going towards the identity/culture struggle.

Most likely in quite a successful divide and rule strategy. Egg on students having a thousand different causes and stop them and workers realising there's one enemy and it's the rich fucker behind the curtain.



Winot said:


> It’s broader than you think.



God help us all.


----------



## gosub (Dec 10, 2019)

They didn't fuck about.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2019)

MrSki said:


> ETA Strap yourselves in folks, one of the political stories of the century is brewing... • Dorset Eye


I see a Pulitzer in the works for the Dorset Eye.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Well this might make a slight difference. Hopefully if the press run with it which is unlikely.
> 
> 
> 
> ETA Strap yourselves in folks, one of the political stories of the century is brewing... • Dorset Eye




A link to (15 of the ETA)?


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

It was on newsnight. Looked a bit flimsy to me, cant see it making a difference.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2019)

Yep War of Jennifer's Ear as noted


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 11, 2019)

There is a photo of the women who posted the original comment on Twitter with Theresa May, also claims her and her husband work in the private healthcare industry (BUPA).  This could also be fake news, so not going to give these claims too much credit.

If there is truth in it, pretty disgusting to attack the mother of the child with false allegations to try and kill the story. Shows how desperate they are. I hope the mother sues them and those sharing the fake story without apology.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 11, 2019)

Polls showing possible Boris majority. Who are these cunts voting Tory?


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 11, 2019)

donkyboy said:


> Polls showing possible Boris majority. Who are these cunts voting Tory?



The answer is in your question.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 11, 2019)

donkyboy said:


> Polls showing possible Boris majority. Who are these cunts voting Tory?



A sizeable chunk of people for whom "getting brexit done" trumps everything else. Johnson getting his deal through parliament was a massive political gift. The Labour mps who enabled it should be slung out of the party


----------



## Looby (Dec 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Don’t think we’ve had a Lib Dem flyer unless the girlfriend has thrown it away



I keep finding torn up leaflets in the porch so they don’t make it into the house. I have pointed out he could just put them in the bin instead.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 11, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> A sizeable chunk of people for whom "getting brexit done" trumps everything else. Johnson getting his deal through parliament was a massive political gift. The Labour mps who enabled it should be slung out of the party



Also consider in the not particularly likely scenario that Johnson ends up without a majority and can’t get his deal through, he’ll be the bloke who had a Brexit deal agreed in parliament but threw away the opportunity to enact it by having an election, the man who gambled with your Brexit and lost. The 17.4 million will be furious. Maybe.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 11, 2019)

Millions of people are - stupidly - going to vote for a man and a party that despises them. I can't see much beyond that today.


----------



## andysays (Dec 11, 2019)

treelover said:


> I guarantee they will make different demands than a sixty year old ex miner.


Are all Labour's non youth votes from sixty year old ex miners, then?

You don't half post some nonsense...


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 11, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Millions of people are - stupidly - going to vote for a man and a party that despises them. I can't see much beyond that today.



Who will sit with his colleagues and openly laugh, probably saying look at all these fools, they honestly think we see them as equals.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 11, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Fair point but lets  not have the Paul Mason one in which the new w/class is the connected city worker(prob with a degree)  who is up for a coalition with the middle classes against 'the mob' who voted for Brexit. The fact that the Tories lead Labour amongst working class voters says something about how far in some parts of the country the left has failed the w/class. Reparing that ,if its possible,  is going to need more than just a discussion on who is working class.



Spot on. The first step is the fight to consign the politics, popular frontism and essentialism of Mason, Jones etc to the dustbin. It can be followed into the trash with the ludicrous lifestyle politics of Bastani and gang


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Are all Labour's non youth votes from sixty year old ex miners, then?
> 
> You don't half post some nonsense...



How can a ‘youth’ living in London, with a degree and a shit job have the same _lived experience_ as a 60 year old miner in a deindustrialised village? One has known only late capitalism. The other was once part of a strong non-state working class network fused by a union/community nexus and which was based around class collective action?

Social being produces social consciousness as EP Thompson once reminded us


----------



## tommers (Dec 11, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Millions of people are - stupidly - going to vote for a man and a party that despises them. I can't see much beyond that today.


We were just talking about what could be an any more suitable set of circumstances for getting rid of the Tories. Apart from Brexit I can't see it, and I guess Corbyn. As much as I like him I know a lot of people really don't.

But surely 9 years of needless austerity, the first policy announced was cutting taxes for the 5%, the manifesto was £2 billion for potholes, the endless lying, the American girlfriend, the child lying on coats, the blatant lies to cover that up, the 40 new hospitals that weren't, the 50,000 nurses that weren't... It goes on and on but none of it seems to matter to anybody. They still sit there at 40%.  It's fucking depressing.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 11, 2019)

Better the devil you know,  I can only imagine


----------



## tommers (Dec 11, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Better the devil you know,  I can only imagine


Yeah you're probably right but we're always told that Leave won cos people have been left behind and they want change and the system isn't working. 

Well, here's their chance and oh.. they're voting for more of the same


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

I _think_ that's a bit of a misreading.

My suspicion is that, if there is a big Tory swing in the so-called Red Wall, it wont be a vote for the Tories and for "more of the same" but will be a vote for "Getting Brexit Done" and will remain a vote for change.

Of course, there's a massive flaw in that logic, but remember that Labour local government has been exactly "more of the same" too so it shouldn't be surprising that there's little trust that a Labour government will deliver anything else.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 11, 2019)

Yeah the problem for labour is that for a big chunk of voters they aren't really a break with the past. I find it strange how this coexists with the marxist threat capital flight stuff but the constant comparisons to last labour govt(s) shows it, and of course people in areas that have always been labour, have labour councils, have a labour govt like in wales


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 11, 2019)

Few people vote for entire platforms, Most people vote for a headline policy that effects them personally and/or they care about (sometimes in a not particularly rational manner) and accept that the party implementing it has other policies that they don't like but will accept if the important thing gets done.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2019)

Good work


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2019)

Also, people in general — all people — find it hard to conceive of a social reality that is truly different to the one they exist in.  They don’t really believe things can be better.  They conceptualise more of the same, only with some things not working as well because they’ve been messed with by the unknown.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 11, 2019)

We need D:Ream to reform.

For the country.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 11, 2019)

Johnson hid in a fridge to avoid talking to Piers Morgan. Insert your own gag here.


----------



## Scaggs (Dec 11, 2019)

treelover said:


> I guarantee they will make different demands than a sixty year old ex miner.



As a 'sixty year old ex miner' I'll be voting Labour for the same reasons as my two eldest kids. Minimum wage rise, ending tuition fees, evironment, NHS, free broadband, housing policy, stopping a hard brexit etc. Don't see why young peoples demands would be any different to mine.


----------



## andysays (Dec 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> How can a ‘youth’ living in London, with a degree and a shit job have the same _lived experience_ as a 60 year old miner in a deindustrialised village? One has known only late capitalism. The other was once part of a strong non-state working class network fused by a union/community nexus and which was based around class collective action?
> 
> Social being produces social consciousness as EP Thompson once reminded us


Firstly, not all youths living in London have degrees (the streets here aren't paved with gold either, btw).

Secondly and more importantly, social and economic changes since the golden age of the Labour movement t which you continually harken back to mean it is impossible for Labour to win a majority by appealing *solely *to their traditional base described by you, and summed up more crudely by treelover.

If they aren't able to appeal across the entirity of the working class as it actually exists in 2019 and onwards, across the whole country including in London where sixty year old ex miners are pretty thin on the ground, they aren't ever going to win an election again.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

Hiding in a fridge while your aides tells reporters to fuck off is a strong look for a prime minister on the day before polls, have to say.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2019)

Paid advert in the Manchester evening News and Northern Echo by Continuity Blairites


----------



## JimW (Dec 11, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Paid advert in the Manchester evening News and Northern Echo by Continuity Blairites


Neck shots all round, I'll show 'em extremism.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Firstly, not all youths living in London have degrees (the streets here aren't paved with gold either, btw).
> 
> Secondly and more importantly, social and economic changes since the golden age of the Labour movement t which you continually harken back to mean it is impossible for Labour to win a majority by appealing *solely *to their traditional base described by you, and summed up more crudely by treelover.
> 
> If they aren't able to appeal across the entirity of the working class as it actually exists in 2019 and onwards, across the whole country including in London where sixty year old ex miners are pretty thin on the ground, they aren't ever going to win an election again.



Not all youths living in London have degrees and crap jobs. Not all youths are voting Labour. Not all youths support remain. That's kind of the point I was making in defence of treelover's entirely sensible point that the lived experience of various groups that Labour hope to appeal to are different and produce a different set of assumptions, desires and ' moral economies'.

As for your latter point, far from appealing to the entirety of the working class Labour is increasingly the party of the _English middle class_. How else to explain the two predicted gains by the MRP - Putney and and Barnet -  and the predicted loses across Scotland the Midlands and the North?


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> Hiding in a fridge while your aides tells reporters to fuck off is a strong look for a prime minister on the day before polls, have to say.



...and on GMB too. More interesting audience than Twitter, QT or C4 News.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 11, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Paid advert in the Manchester evening News and Northern Echo by Continuity Blairites



Whatever else happens Corbyn's leadership has at least one solid achievement it can point to - a Labour party free of that list of cunts.


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> As for your latter point, far from appealing to the entirety of the working class Labour is increasingly the party of the English middle class. How else to explain the two predicted gains by the MRP - Putney and and Barnet -  and the predicted loses across Scotland the Midlands and the North?



As you hint at in the start of your post it's a different "cultural" section of the w/c, not the "English middle class".


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Paid advert in the Manchester evening News and Northern Echo by Continuity Blairites


i am particularly impressed by the proof reading, in particular the name of john woodcock's former constituency


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> Hiding in a fridge while your aides tells reporters to fuck off is a strong look for a prime minister on the day before polls, have to say.



from the daily mail


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)




----------



## rekil (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> what demands will the youth make that the _traditional_ working class won't be able to bear?


Is it open borders? Again?


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 11, 2019)

I’ve just had a letter addressed to me and my partner from “Ruth Davidson”, retired Scottish Tory leader, in fake handwriting script, all about voting against Nicola Sturgeon. It neglects to mention Boris Johnson even once.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 11, 2019)

Johnson in a fridge, the oven ready bastard.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 192588


Interesting that the Mail are reporting it like that. Could it have any kind of impact? I've seen apologists saying "he shouldn't have to speak to every interviewer, he's busy", etc, and I can see this being spun as "doorstep journalism".

I know everyone keeps saying it, but it is amazing that there are _so many _of these in what has been a very short election, all things considered, and yet we're still staring down the barrel of a Tory majority


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 11, 2019)

Tom Harris might not have seen it coming, but I did.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 11, 2019)

Telegraph columnist Tom Harris is voting Tory? Shocking.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

copliker said:


> Is it open borders? Again?


It's _always_ open borders


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 11, 2019)

88%! Nothing learned since the referendum then. Facebook still doing its part, noticeably 0% of Labour's ads.

88% of Conservatives' most widely promoted ads feature claims which are not correct


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Interesting that the Mail are reporting it like that. Could it have any kind of impact? I've seen apologists saying "he shouldn't have to speak to every interviewer, he's busy", etc, and I can see this being spun as "doorstep journalism".
> 
> I know everyone keeps saying it, but it is amazing that there are _so many _of these in what has been a very short election, all things considered, and yet we're still staring down the barrel of a Tory majority


let's see what tomorrow brings before measuring out the rope and investing in a stool.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> 88%! Nothing learned since the referendum then. Facebook still doing its part, noticeably 0% of Labour's ads.
> 
> 88% of Conservatives' most widely promoted ads feature claims which are not correct


I'd say plenty learned tbh


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> 88%! Nothing learned since the referendum then. Facebook still doing its part, noticeably 0% of Labour's ads.
> 
> 88% of Conservatives' most widely promoted ads feature claims which are not correct



BBC headline on this notable left out the word 'conservative' and just says something like 'political ads are misleading'


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 11, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> BBC headline on this notable left out the word 'conservative' and just says something like 'political ads are misleading'



Indeed that's why I didn't quote their report. Note the word misleading too...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2019)

Could be the vote clincher of the election


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'd say plenty learned tbh



I meant by Facebook and the electoral commission but yeah certainly plenty learned by sociopathic campaign managers.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 11, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> I've seen apologists saying "he shouldn't have to speak to every interviewer, he's busy", etc, and I can see this being spun as "doorstep journalism".
> 
> I know everyone keeps saying it, but it is amazing that there are _so many _of these in what has been a very short election, all things considered, and yet we're still staring down the barrel of a Tory majority



yeah. what right have the media turn up and ask questions of boris johnson when he is busy carrying out a staged media event that the media have been invited to? bastards.

But yes - he has been shockingly shit at dealing with any sort of awkward or confrontational questions - either trying to shut down the questioner or running away. 

Great campaigner though, charasmatic, witty, reaches out to ordinary people, great at interacting with the media .....


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2019)

Well if you want an optimistic  dark horse punt this has possibilies at 5-1 Labour minority govt assuming the Tories have run out of partners.



> This is where it gets a little bit interesting. Despite the Tories being priced at 1/3 to obtain a majority government, the money this morning is coming for a Labour minority.
> 
> In the last hour, 48% of all bets on the government following the election have backed a labour minority.
> 
> That’s caused bookies to cut odds on both that and the Labour party forming an alliance with the SNP, which has been cut from 25/1 into as short as 9/1.



Oddschecker


----------



## treelover (Dec 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Firstly, not all youths living in London have degrees (the streets here aren't paved with gold either, btw).
> 
> Secondly and more importantly, social and economic changes since the golden age of the Labour movement t which you continually harken back to mean it is impossible for Labour to win a majority by appealing *solely *to their traditional base described by you, and summed up more crudely by treelover.
> 
> If they aren't able to appeal across the entirity of the working class as it actually exists in 2019 and onwards, across the whole country including in London where sixty year old ex miners are pretty thin on the ground, they aren't ever going to win an election again.



I was referring to what seems to be happening in places like Bolsover, where ex miners are saying they are going to vote tory, and how in future they may be stopped.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 11, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Well if you want an optimistic  dark horse punt this has possibilies at 5-1 Labour minority govt assuming the Tories have run out of partners.
> Oddschecker


I definitely think the Tories have run out of friends, Unlike some other posters, I really don't believe that the LibDems are dumb enough to go back into coalition with the Tories after what happened last time and Arlene seems to have learnt her lesson but at things stand at the moment BoZo is showing his true colours in the (probably) correct belief he doesn't need friends.
Even so there is still a smidgeon of hope, the fat lady may be on her way to the theater but she isn't singing yet.


----------



## treelover (Dec 11, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Whatever else happens Corbyn's leadership has at least one solid achievement it can point to - a Labour party free of that list of cunts.



Chris Leslie was one of the key architects of New Labours's brutal welfare reforms.


----------



## Winot (Dec 11, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Few people vote for entire platforms, Most people vote for a headline policy that effects them personally and/or they care about (sometimes in a not particularly rational manner) and accept that the party implementing it has other policies that they don't like but will accept if the important thing gets done.



Don’t most people vote for a party based on the personality of its leader?


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 11, 2019)

Winot said:


> Don’t most people vote for a party based on the personality of its leader?


Two words: Theresa May


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2019)

Winot said:


> Don’t most people vote for a party based on the personality of its leader?


There seems to be very little evidence of this.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2019)

Winot said:


> Don’t most people vote for a party based on the personality of its leader?


Berlusconi? 
Trump?
Johnson? 

Cheeky bunch of lads with the banter


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

Most people vote the same way in every general election. Often they won't vote for anyone else, so the main calculation is 'will "our voters" bother to vote or not?', hence the term 'turning out the base'.

I know there is a lot of talk about this changing, but both labour and conservative seem to have a base in general elections of at least 25%. Local conditions can apply, such as Labour's collapse in Scotland, but generally most of us know at the start how we will vote and won't be swayed from that by pretty much anything - and it's the same as we voted last time.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 11, 2019)

kabbes said:


> There seems to be very little evidence of this.


"Poor John Major. I feel so sorry for him. Such a nice man".


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> Are all Labour's non youth votes from sixty year old ex miners, then?
> 
> You don't half post some nonsense...



Labours support by age:  18-24: 58% 25-49: 43% 50-64: 28% 65+: 15%


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 11, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Labours support by age:  18-24: 58% 25-49: 43% 50-64: 28% 65+: 15%


Keep seeing these figures, which are encouraging for the future, but I wonder if there is any data about how voting preference has shifted as people grow older?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2019)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Keep seeing these figures, which are encouraging for the future, but I wonder if there is any data about how voting preference has shifted as people grow older?


I haven't but I would guess you'd have to link that data with events that would/could  have contributed to any shift in voting patterns to make any sense out of.


----------



## Supine (Dec 11, 2019)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Keep seeing these figures, which are encouraging for the future, but I wonder if there is any data about how voting preference has shifted as people grow older?



People turn conservative? I certainly won't be


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Keep seeing these figures, which are encouraging for the future, but I wonder if there is any data about how voting preference has shifted as people grow older?


This article has a graph showing how age as a determinant has become stronger since the 1970s. There was still a shift as you went up in age in 1974, but it has become more pronounced over time - in particular, tories losing those in their 30s and Labour losing those in their 60s. Interesting that the age at which the lines cross is the same for both - around 60.

I think the article actually overstates its case a bit as there was a marked difference in 1974 as well, but the differences have certainly grown.

Age, rather than class, has come to determine how Britain votes | Torsten Bell

The other thing to mention there is that the difference in turnout between young and old in the 1970s was less pronounced than it is now. I think that's going to be the key tomorrow. How many people under 40 will vote compared to those over 60? It will be fewer, but by how much?

And one final thing to bear in mind. Rich people tend to live longer than poor people, and rich people tend to vote tory. That was probably a bigger factor in 1974 than 2017, but it will still be a factor. Still significant  - around a seven year gap between the top 20 per cent and the bottom 20 per cent. That's on average 1.5 extra votes per lifetime to the rich.

Life expectancy gap between rich and poor widens


----------



## LDC (Dec 11, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Could be the vote clincher of the election




Jesus fucking christ, bring on the horsemen of the apocalypse, it really is the end of days.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2019)

Strong message that 
Seems there will be *40 new* hospitals and *50k new* nurses after all


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Strong message that
> Seems there will be *40 new* hospitals and *50k new* nurses after all



yeh but you haven't seen the bill for them yet


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Jesus fucking christ, bring on the horsemen of the apocalypse, it really is the end of days.


would have been nice to see the horsemen of the apocalypse ride down the brexit flash mob


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 192589



what an absolute scumbag


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2019)

What’s that male/female “end the uncertainty” thing all about?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2019)

kabbes said:


> What’s that male/female “end the uncertainty” thing all about?



Yeah that looked dodgy to me too.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 11, 2019)

kabbes said:


> What’s that male/female “end the uncertainty” thing all about?


"End the uncertainty" is a Tory "get Brexit done" catchphrase, but no idea how those emoji relate to it.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Strong message that
> Seems there will be *40 new* hospitals and *50k new* nurses after all




Great responses to it though.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2019)

Hardly a shocker  


> The Conservative election campaign has pocketed more than £1m in “dirty money” from investors in the fossil fuels responsible for the climate emergency, research by Greenpeace has found.
> 
> The campaign group raised fears that Boris Johnson’s government would be “beholden” to firms helping to fund the coal, oil and gas industries and “making the climate crisis worse”.


Tories take £1m in 'dirty money' for election campaign from fossil fuel investors responsible for climate emergency


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

Labour have put out a couple of good little videos over the last day or two.

I think I might even be in this one! (for a fraction of a second!)


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 11, 2019)

One positive after friday if the tories do get a majority or form next govt is that I reckon it'll be a bit like with libdems after 2010, will be able to have great fun saying to people after 'you voted for this cunt you silly prick, you clown, look at your clown shoes you fucking clown', when the dust settles people will be mortified and ashamed


----------



## maomao (Dec 11, 2019)

My dearest hope is for a hung parliament with the Tories on one or two seats less than they got with May last time. Will just show the whole fucking shitshow up as the waste of fucking time and energy that it is.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> One positive after friday if the tories do get a majority or form next govt is that I reckon it'll be a bit like with libdems after 2010, will be able to have great fun saying to people after 'you voted for this cunt you silly prick, you clown, look at your clown shoes you fucking clown', when the dust settles people will be mortified and ashamed


Do find that when talking with Tory voters I wish harm on their families, businesses and lives so I can say the same.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> One positive after friday if the tories do get a majority or form next govt is that I reckon it'll be a bit like with libdems after 2010, will be able to have great fun saying to people after 'you voted for this cunt you silly prick, you clown, look at your clown shoes you fucking clown', when the dust settles people will be mortified and ashamed



Strongly suspect that any negatives will of course be blamed on Labour and Lib D intransigence.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2019)

Someone left a copy of the sun in the kitchen at work today. Fucking hell. It’s front to back propaganda. It’s not often I actually look at these days.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Someone left a copy of the sun in the kitchen at work today. Fucking hell. It’s front to back propaganda. It’s not often I actually look at these days.


Any tits?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 11, 2019)

There's a newsagents I go into in the morning sometimes and every time I do I get offered a free copy of the Sun. At first I thought it was a temporary promotion thing but going on for months now so assume they are just doing it to try and boost circulation, although can't find anything online about it and no other shops I frequent offer me a copy so must be limited to some shops. Anyway hopefully this means they're slowly dying


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2019)

View attachment 192625 No , just one big arsehole


I will delete this in a
Min


----------



## 8115 (Dec 11, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 192625 No , just one big arsehole
> 
> 
> I will delete this in a
> Min


Yesterday's Sun front page was even worse (I saw it in the supermarket).

Eta Monday's actually.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> There's a newsagents I go into in the morning sometimes and every time I do I get offered a free copy of the Sun. At first I thought it was a temporary promotion thing but going on for months now so assume they are just doing it to try and boost circulation, although can't find anything online about it and no other shops I frequent offer me a copy so must be limited to some shops. Anyway hopefully this means they're slowly dying


At Manchester Airport theres usually bundles of them free on racks . I once caught a flight back at 20.30 and the racks were still full of them.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 11, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> There's a newsagents I go into in the morning sometimes and every time I do I get offered a free copy of the Sun. At first I thought it was a temporary promotion thing but going on for months now so assume they are just doing it to try and boost circulation, although can't find anything online about it and no other shops I frequent offer me a copy so must be limited to some shops. Anyway hopefully this means they're slowly dying



Is it a Spar shop? 

Only my local Spar tries to give me a free copy, I always reply, 'no thanks, I find Andrex is softer'.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2019)

Last time I flew from Manchester it was a spar in the terminal - rather unusual in a world usually dominated by smiths


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 11, 2019)

This has been one of the few things to make me laugh in a non-bitter way recently:



Fair play, after the initial "oh shit" moment he just gets on with shooting, rather than duck down again which would be worse.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 11, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 192625 No , just one big arsehole
> 
> 
> I will delete this in a
> Min


Scottish edition avoids Johnson praise, and instead attacks Sturgeon on a devolved issue.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 11, 2019)

Within five steps of coming through the front door, the meet Jo Swinson leaflet was in the recycling bin. Interesting to see the candidate for this seat is someone who failed miserably as a councillor on the two occasions he got elected during Donnygate.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Is it a Spar shop?
> 
> Only my local Spar tries to give me a free copy, I always reply, 'no thanks, I find Andrex is softer'.


No, it's an independent (I think) and funnily enough there is a spar I go to quite a bit that has never offered me a free copy


----------



## 8ball (Dec 11, 2019)

Facebook has a lot of pro-Labour propaganda on it today, but this is the best one by far:


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Facebook has a lot of pro-Labour propaganda on it today, but this is the best one by far:
> 
> View attachment 192644


Although the placement of the apostrophe shows a singular lack of ambition.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 11, 2019)

maomao said:


> My dearest hope is for a hung parliament with the Tories on one or two seats less than they got with May last time. Will just show the whole fucking shitshow up as the waste of fucking time and energy that it is.


IMO it's the realistic best-case scenario right now


----------



## 8ball (Dec 11, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Although the placement of the apostrophe shows a singular lack of ambition.



Yeah, but I like how it references those Jesus pictures, with Jezza comforting the distraught tenant, bringing his Christmas message of hope.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Facebook has a lot of pro-Labour propaganda on it today, but this is the best one by far:
> 
> View attachment 192644


I can't tell what is satire and what isn't nowadays.  

Right to rent?  Or is this satire?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, but I like how it references those Jesus pictures, with Jezza comforting the distraught tenant, bringing his Christmas message of hope.


Ah, I thought that was the distraught landlord on finding out that he wasn't going to be allowed to increase the rent again this year.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah, I thought that was the distraught landlord on finding out that he wasn't going to be allowed to increase the rent again this year.



Is that the tenant in the background, then?  It looks like a rented flat.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

I dunno. I'm confused.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

tbh there is a significant 'btl' constituency out there, presumably. People who are middlingly off, and making useful extra money from their 'wise investment' in a house to rent. Won't anybody think of them?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 11, 2019)

No.


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh there is a significant 'btl' constituency out there, presumably. People who are middlingly off, and making useful extra money from their 'wise investment' in a house to rent. Won't anybody think of them?



Yep.

Most politicians


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 11, 2019)

They’re also running those ‘parents choice’ adverts against private education being properly taxed, as though they think that’s somehow a vote winner.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

teqniq said:


> No.


_You are responsible for my child having to leave her (private) school, you monster. Are you going to tell her? Well? Are you????_


----------



## teqniq (Dec 11, 2019)

Lol, no. I seem to have run out of fucks to give.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

"We're not rich anyway. After paying the school fees for two children, we really have very little left over. "

/genuine thing someone once said to me


----------



## teqniq (Dec 11, 2019)




----------



## 2hats (Dec 11, 2019)




----------



## MrSki (Dec 11, 2019)

This might be accidental.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 11, 2019)

MrSki said:


> This might be accidental.




She's saying the Tories believe Boris Johnson needs "the majority he so deserves", not expressing her own view.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> She's saying the Tories believe Boris Johnson needs "the majority he so deserves", not expressing her own view.


how can you tell?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 11, 2019)

I've just got home to find a leaflet inviting me to vote for the SDP. Truly the dead are rising for this election.


----------



## JimW (Dec 11, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Truly the dead are rising for this election


Breaking the mould just like they promised


----------



## maomao (Dec 11, 2019)

My constituency must be a complete write off because I've seriously only had one flyer through the door. Either that or Mrs maomao is getting them in the recycling bin before I've had a chance to rant.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2019)

maomao said:


> My constituency must be a complete write off because I've seriously only had one flyer through the door. Either that or Mrs maomao is getting them in the recycling bin before I've had a chance to rant.


Not had anything from anyone (Safe lab)


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> how can you tell?



By listening to her reporting on what the Tories are saying.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 11, 2019)

Momentum panicked by opinion polls.

 

And leaked Momentum WhatsApp suggests they are trying to rig the election via betting.


----------



## maomao (Dec 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> And leaked Momentum WhatsApp suggests they are trying to rig the election via betting.


'Rigging' lol you tosser.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

Oborne's piece just out in the graun is unhinged - also have some key words been edited out? As you read through the article it becomes clear that he isn't just planning on not voting tory, but actually voting for Labour - but he never explicitly says it. 

Boris Johnson wants to destroy the Britain I love. I cannot vote Conservative | Peter Oborne


----------



## MrSki (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> Oborne's piece just out in the graun is unhinged - also have some key words been edited out? As you read through the article it becomes clear that he isn't just planning on not voting tory, but actually voting for Labour - but he never explicitly says it.
> 
> Boris Johnson wants to destroy the Britain I love. I cannot vote Conservative | Peter Oborne


He is voting Labour.


----------



## maomao (Dec 11, 2019)

Nice big 'Fuck off and die, cunt' right in Rosindell's face followed by the now customary greenie all over the door handle of his campaign car. That felt good. Deep breath.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 11, 2019)

maomao said:


> Nice big 'Fuck off and die, cunt' right in Rosindell's face followed by the now customary greenie all over the door handle of his campaign car. That felt good. Deep breath.



Valium may make you feel better.


----------



## treelover (Dec 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Momentum panicked by opinion polls.
> 
> View attachment 192657
> 
> ...



Its commonsense to get out to marginals in the North, outside the comfort zone, etc, it is absolutely necessary and has been a mistake not to do so.


----------



## maomao (Dec 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Valium may make you feel better.


Killing some tories would make me feel even better. Then valium.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

hey treelover have you seen this piece? 

Labour has problems in its ‘heartlands’ – but only grassroots work can rebuild trust | Tom Blackburn


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Momentum panicked by opinion polls.
> 
> View attachment 192657
> 
> ...


£1 bets aren’t going to move the dial.  You need millions being bet on an election for it to be felt.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

kabbes said:


> £1 bets aren’t going to move the dial.  You need millions being bet on an election for it to be felt.


it's made up anyway. saw a similar 'leaked whatsapp' thing in 2017


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 11, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I've just got home to find a leaflet inviting me to vote for the SDP. Truly the dead are rising for this election.


Weird bunch, the new SDP. A bit blue laboury


----------



## Spandex (Dec 11, 2019)

Not Boris Johnson

Not Boris Fucking Johnson

Not Alexander Boris Island Garden Bridge Just Pat Her On The Bottom And Send Her Away Tank Topped Bum Boys Watermellon Smile Picaninnie Hooked On Grief Over Hillsborough de Pfeffel Literally Centuries Behind The West Three Men And A Dog Couldn’t Tell The Truth If His Life Depended On It Fucking Johnson.

Get the overprivileged shitbag off my fucking telly so I don’t have to look at his smug fucking face and listen to him waffle his fucking lies ever a-fucking-gain. His fucking stunts are worse than a fucking Noel Edmonds Saturday evening TV show. Somebody fucking save us. Please don’t make him the fucking Prime Minister. Please let it all go wrong for the wretched fucking tosspot tomorrow.

And not just him. There’s also Michael ‘Massive Cunt’ Gove, Priti ‘Hate Machine’ Patel, Sajid ‘Ayn Rand’ Javid, Dominic ‘Somebody Please Punch Him In His Stupid Fucking Face’ Raab, Matt ‘Lying Piss Puddle Bullying Shit Stain’ Hancock,  Jacob ‘He Can’t Be Real The Snivelling Panto Villain’ Rees-Mogg… The list of contemptible fucking arse wipes who are likely to be the fucking government for the next fucking five fucking years goes on and on.

Somebody fucking stop them


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

Spandex said:


> Not Boris Johnson
> 
> Not Boris Fucking Johnson
> 
> ...


I'm eagerly anticipating their arrival at fox bay west


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> "We're not rich anyway. After paying the school fees for two children, we really have very little left over. "
> 
> /genuine thing someone once said to me



I had someone tell me that they were helping the area out by sending their kid private, by easing the terrible overcrowding they'd witnessed in the local state primary.


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 11, 2019)




----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 11, 2019)

I’m not going to be voting tomorrow.

Corbyn and his advisors, Milne and Murray are trots and are responsible for attracting more trots to the party, and I fucking hate trots. I don’t think they’re capable of engaging with the public at large or even the working class and I hate the toxic bullshit they bring with them.

I have doubts over Corbyns leadership too, he had so many opportunities to put the anti-semitism thing to bed and he didn’t and brexit is the an important issue, to stay neutral on that is pathetic. His PLP colleagues seem to think so too, which is why you get idiots like Burgon on the front bench.

More Tory austerity coming, it’s so shit.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 11, 2019)

Then do something about it , apathy is a great way to stop the fuckers , no ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> I had someone tell me that they were helping the area out by sending their kid private, by easing the terrible overcrowding they'd witnessed in the local state primary.


Selfless


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’m not going to be voting tomorrow.
> 
> Corbyn and his advisors, Milne and Murray are trots and are responsible for attracting more trots to the party, and I fucking hate trots. I don’t think they’re capable of engaging with the public at large or even the working class and I hate the toxic bullshit they bring with them.
> 
> ...


On the other hand jc is not bj


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Corbyn and his advisors, Milne and Murray are trots and are responsible for attracting more trots to the party, and I fucking hate trots..



They may be many things, but Trots they are most certainly not.

Milne and Murray both have past links with the CP.  Y'know, the Tankies? It's hard to get more anti-Trot tbh.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 11, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’m not going to be voting tomorrow.
> 
> Corbyn and his advisors, Milne and Murray are trots and are responsible for attracting more trots to the party, and I fucking hate trots. I don’t think they’re capable of engaging with the public at large or even the working class and I hate the toxic bullshit they bring with them.
> 
> ...



still not the fucking Tory party under fucking Bojo


----------



## Smangus (Dec 11, 2019)

Don't vote, then don't moan


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

chilango said:


> They may be many things, but Trots they are most certainly not.
> 
> Milne and Murray both have past links with the CP.  Y'know, the Tankies? It's hard to get more anti-Trot tbh.


Yeh they'd have sent the trots to kolyma


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh they'd have sent the trots to kolyma


Didn’t know about Kolyma, woah.. you have educated me again fella ( maybe not a fella , can’t tell on the interwebs)


----------



## Part-timah (Dec 11, 2019)




----------



## Hollis (Dec 11, 2019)

Labour activists targeting Cities of London and Westminster. Perhaps they've given up.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 11, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Milne and Murray are trots and are responsible for attracting more trots to the party, and I fucking hate trots.



They are both stalinists you knob


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 11, 2019)

Could probably bond well with them over your shared hatred of trots tbh


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 11, 2019)

Smangus said:


> Don't vote, then don't moan


I'll not vote and then moan, thank you very much.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 11, 2019)

if you cannot even bring yourself to drag you ass to a voting booth and draw a spunking cock you moaning rights should be removed


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 11, 2019)

chilango said:


> They may be many things, but Trots they are most certainly not.
> 
> Milne and Murray both have past links with the CP.  Y'know, the Tankies? It's hard to get more anti-Trot tbh.


No real difference.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 11, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> if you cannot even bring yourself to drag you ass to a voting booth and draw a spunking cock you moaning rights should be removed



I'll do a spunking cock in the comfort of my own home, ta


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I'll do a spunking cock in the comfort of my own home, ta


Behind closed doors


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 11, 2019)

It's a political act.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 11, 2019)

if you don't vote your letting a spunking cock be the PM by default


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> No real difference.


The trots never sent tanks into Hungary or czechoslovakia


----------



## treelover (Dec 11, 2019)

You gov saying Bolsover could go to the Tories, Skinners seat since 1970!

Election 2019: class war lives on for Sophie Wilson, Labour candidate in Rother Valley

and Sophie Wilson, who would normally sail it in rother valley and would be youngest MP, and a great person is under attack in the Times, etc.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 11, 2019)

treelover said:


> You gov saying Bolsover could go to the Tories, Skinners seat since 1970!
> 
> Election 2019: class war lives on for Sophie Wilson, Labour candidate in Rother Valley
> 
> and Sophie Wilson, who would normally sail it in rother valley and would be youngest MP, and a great person is under attack in the Times, etc.



Possibly due to the massive leave votes in these constituencies. Kevin Barron could see this may happen, so jumped in order to get a better package for stepping down rather than losing his seat.
There are some around here expecting Miliband seeing his majority decimated.


----------



## binka (Dec 11, 2019)

Would be a shame for Skinner to lose his seat, he'd be father of the house otherwise meaning he'd get preferential treatment to call the Tories cunts


----------



## chilango (Dec 11, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> No real difference.




Well there is. Certainly enough of a difference to warrant being accurate in slinging labels around to justify your opposition to Corbyn et al.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 11, 2019)

still find it weird with Boris record of racism to all sorts of people and the Tory faithful

people are finding reason not to vote  for the  labour party who currently has been purposed by media as having  worse record for it

even if it is another tory result on Friday


the voting record should stand by JC for the onslaught of negativity that been produced over the last few years

not see it in 20 years of elections over here in england


----------



## Humberto (Dec 11, 2019)

No one expects a Labour majority, but the flimsy excuses given for the unbalanced coverage are simply not good enough. Moving leftward to any degree instead of constantly lurching further to the right is constantly deluged in a torrent of base propaganda. Honestly, its embarrassing. And very dangerous.

Anything other than getting these nut-cases kicked out of government is only going to ruin the country. I've learnt a lot about the press in this country in the lead up to polling day. First and foremost, they are only there to protect wealth and constantly fearmonger and lie to get people to fall in line. Most here knew this, but to see it at fever-pitch day in day out to this extent is an eye-opener for me. They are so dead against anything that doesn't grab what's left for themselves. And hold onto it. Dignity and honesty in abeyance.

What does the future hold for those of us who aren't tied to the mob that controls business/political office/major media outlets, if Boris Johnson gets elected? The young don't have any memory of anything much better and the middle-class have received years of political scaremongering. So, marketisation of everything, individualism and short-termism. In short; the very last things the great majority of this country need from its next government.

What those faulty doctrines will do though is concentrate wealth ever further into the hands of the greedy, whilst taking us further down the path to ruin. Towards becoming a country where people say; 'thankfully its not like that here', or worse. They aren't competent at running the country. The real question is, who do you vote for: the ones who see politics (in fact all walks of life) as the chance to make more money for themselves (the have-nots be damned), or for the one chance we have this time round for a fairer deal and a brighter future?


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 11, 2019)

maomao said:


> My constituency must be a complete write off because I've seriously only had one flyer through the door. Either that or Mrs maomao is getting them in the recycling bin before I've had a chance to rant.


one more than me


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 11, 2019)

An hour ago I was driving through the next village when I saw the Brexit party candidate being chauffeured around, spouting their usual spiel about Brexit treachery through a loudspeaker, like some seventies local councillor. What struck me was the car he was in was sandwiched between two other cars, looked like a couple of minders for him out here in bandit country.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 11, 2019)




----------



## Ax^ (Dec 11, 2019)

does he have the flash cards in there with him?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> Oborne's piece just out in the graun is unhinged - also have some key words been edited out? As you read through the article it becomes clear that he isn't just planning on not voting tory, but actually voting for Labour - but he never explicitly says it.
> 
> Boris Johnson wants to destroy the Britain I love. I cannot vote Conservative | Peter Oborne


Oborne's changed a bit in my estimation recently. Never paid much attention as had him down as a classic tory, but he's written a couple of good articles recently, including an absolutely scathing piece taking apart the pro-Tory bias in the mainstream media and their unquestioning reliance on "senior tory sources". (So scathing that no newspaper would touch it so he had to publish it himself on Open Democracy.)


----------



## agricola (Dec 11, 2019)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Oborne's changed a bit in my estimation recently. Never paid much attention as had him down as a classic tory, but he's written a couple of good articles recently, including an absolutely scathing piece taking apart the pro-Tory bias in the mainstream media and their unquestioning reliance on "senior tory sources". (So scathing that no newspaper would touch it so he had to publish it himself on Open Democracy.)



His piece on the riots in 2011 is still his best work (apologies if you've seen it already):  The moral decay of British society is as bad at the top as the bottom

That polemic, incredibly, appeared in the Telegraph first of all.


----------



## killer b (Dec 11, 2019)

He's been writing these maveric articles since forever, it's part of his schtick. still a cunt. His description of the tory party he loved at the start of this latest article is beyond ludicrous.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 11, 2019)

killer b said:


> He's been writing these maveric articles since forever, it's part of his schtick. still a cunt. His description of the tory party he loved at the start of this latest article is beyond ludicrous.


Yeah, I tried not to let his description of the post-war tories as a "wise, gentle, decent party" ruin my enjoyment of the rest of the article


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 11, 2019)

Hollis said:


> Labour activists targeting Cities of London and Westminster. Perhaps they've given up.



It because Chuka is standing in that constituency. 

Chuka really pissed off Labour party members in Streatham. So its personal. I know a few people who have gone and canvassed in Westminster. 

It is not about giving up. 

Chuka should have stood as LD candidate in Streatham.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 11, 2019)

Surely, since the creation of the SNP and labour losing all those seats in Scotland (40+), its been an uphill struggle for them ever since?
I fear the tories will be in for fucking life


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 11, 2019)

I will be voting Labour tomorrow. Despite reservations. ( Dulwich and West Norwood in London/ Lambeth)

My Green candidate is leader of Greens - Bartley. A decent local Cllr in the New Labour run Lambeth Council. Green Cllrs were voted in by Labour voters who couldn't stand the New Labour dominated Council.

As I do. I also know Labour party members in Lambeth who vote Green at Council elections and Labour at General elections . As Lambeth Labour is still run by Blairites. Except in Chuka old area Streatham. Partly why Chuka left Labour party. He could not cold with the new influx of members.

Unfortunately Greens are part of Remain alliance. So I got a leaflet from LDs today urging me to vote for Greens. Oh dear. Greens should not have teamed up with LDs.

My Labour MP Helen Hayes is Remain anyway.

Her election literature focuses on how she is Remain . Corbyn is never mentioned.

No MP or Cllr in Lambeth has ever supported Corbyn. Being on right of the party they want to replace him. Except for Kate Hoey.  Who ended up alienating everyone.

As local Cllr said to me that after election Corbyn "will have to be replaced". They want party to do poorly. 

So my vote is for Corbyn/ McDonnell led Labour party.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 11, 2019)

circulating on teh tweeter


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 11, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Surely, since the creation of the SNP and labour losing all those seats in Scotland (40+), its been an uphill struggle for them ever since?
> I fear the tories will be in for fucking life



When are you thinking the SNP was created? But yes, losing the bastion of Scotland makes it very difficult nowadays for Labour, but that's as much to do with their problems in England. The three Blair governments would still have had majorities without any Scottish seats, for example.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 11, 2019)

Today's leaflet from Bozo was "vote Tory, or there'll be a hung Parliament".

Seemed like a fair trade.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 11, 2019)

Newsnight repeating the ‘brexit election’ line


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## Sue (Dec 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not had anything from anyone (Safe lab)


Me too (safe Labour seat) but I've had two from Labour (unheard of), one Tory, two BP (in this the second biggest remain constituency ),  one Lib Dem (before he got kicked out for twitter scandal of some description) and one from Renew earlier (nope, me either).  

Not sure how you've got off so lightly...


----------



## 8ball (Dec 11, 2019)

Over the last few hours my usually lefty FB feed has been chucking me stuff from the Brexit party and the Tories.  All of it is paid for content.

Anyone noticed similar?

I'm in a key marginal btw.


Suspect a lot of money is being spent...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

Sue said:


> Me too (safe Labour seat) but I've had two from Labour (unheard of), one Tory, two BP (in this the second biggest remain constituency ),  one Lib Dem (before he got kicked out for twitter scandal of some description) and one from Renew earlier (nope, me either).
> 
> Not sure how you've got off so lightly...


Soz.

Lucky I guess. Massively remain here too. I supposed that combination meant nobody thought it worth bothering. We get stuff for the locals, but it's normal to be ignored in the general elections tbh.

Dunno if it's also a bit of a racial thing - lots of Bangladeshis around here. That's a bit of a depressing thought, but it does occur to me that some parties wouldn't bother canvassing in Bangladeshi areas.


----------



## SE25 (Dec 12, 2019)

Absolute nervous wreck right now, going between cautious hope and fearing End of Days every 5 mins...

please make there be good things in this world


----------



## Part-timah (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## Raheem (Dec 12, 2019)

Part-timah said:


> View attachment 192691


So, everything basically hangs on whether or not this image makes the front page of tomorrow's Telegraph.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

Part-timah said:


> View attachment 192691


Fuck off.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

And, so we enter that surreal period where the broadcasters can basically only mention the general election is on & the opening times for the polling stations, no mentions of Brexit, the NHS or any other election issues.

So, it's hold tight for the fun to start just after 10pm when the results of the exit poll are announced, then fingers cross for some Portillo moments.  



> Some of the big beasts of Brexit found their seats under threat as polling day approached, with foreign secretary Dominic Raab, former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith, environment secretary Theresa Villiers, veteran eurosceptic Sir John Redwood – and possibly even Mr Johnson himself – vulnerable to a pro-EU backlash in constituencies where many voters do not share their enthusiasm for leaving.
> 
> Tactical voting expected to play major role in ‘truly historic’ election



Oh, and Swinton - please make it happen.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> So, it's hold tight for the fun to start just after 10pm when the *results of the exit poll* are announced



I have this horrible fear that the election's suddenly going to become very boring, very quickly, after that  

A tedious endurance rather than nervous but interested anticipation ....


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 12, 2019)

We'll be going up to our friends' house after work tonight, for beer, curry, politics ....  anyone else doing that sort of thing?

I'm not even meant to be drinking at the moment**  but Johnson will drive me to it later today 

**My "Dry central December" plan was _supposed_ to go from Tuesday 10th to (morning of!) Tuesday 24th Dec inclusive ....


----------



## Poi E (Dec 12, 2019)

Smoke weed instead. Boris is a drinker.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 12, 2019)

Poi E said:


> *Smoke weed instead. *Boris is a drinker.



Not mutually exclusive  

Plus Boris Johnson wouldn't know quality beer if he tripped over a case of it in a brewery, the posh rich champagne-swigging cunt** 

**aka Tory


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 12, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’m not going to be voting tomorrow.
> 
> Corbyn and his advisors, Milne and Murray are trots and are responsible for attracting more trots to the party, and I fucking hate trots. I don’t think they’re capable of engaging with the public at large or even the working class and I hate the toxic bullshit they bring with them.
> 
> ...


This is total garbage from start to finish. 
Others have already dealt with the deranged allegations of people being "trots" (a word you clearly have not the slightest understanding of).

But the stuff about "Tory austerity" is garbage too. For a start "austerity" was not a Tory thing, it was a policy backed, and implemented, by Labour, it was a policy backed and implemented by the LDs. But it is also not a policy in any parties 2019 manifesto. 

There are plenty of criticism to be made of the LP under Corbyn but one thing it has helped to achieve is to at least challenge the economic consensus. The Tory manifesto of 2019 is not just to the left (economically) of the Tory manifesto's of 2017 or 2015, it is to the left of the Labour manifesto's of 2010 and 2015.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> This is total garbage from start to finish.
> Others have already dealt with the deranged allegations of people being "trots" (a word you clearly have not the slightest understanding of).
> 
> But the stuff about "Tory austerity" is garbage too. For a start "austerity" was not a Tory thing, it was a policy backed, and implemented, by Labour, it was a policy backed and implemented by the LDs. But it is also not a policy in any parties 2019 manifesto.
> ...



Doubt the conservatives will actually do anything in their manifesto though.

Haven't last nine years.


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## skyscraper101 (Dec 12, 2019)

First person to vote in my ward. Tories out.


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## Ptolemy (Dec 12, 2019)

Just got back from voting. Busy; there was a substantial queue already. I wonder what turnout will be this time around.

I second skyscraper - let's get the Tories out of office.


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## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Gonna pop in to vote now on my way to work. What the fuck has become of me.


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## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Surprising number of voters for 7am opening at mine.

A very firm No. to the Tory teller asking for numbers at the door, you can knock on empty door and slip on the ice mate.

That's at least the bright point this year, a lot of a&e visits for slips and falls and hypothermia. Get to see what 9 years of blue rules done to the NHS.


----------



## JimW (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Gonna pop in to vote now on my way to work. What the fuck has become of me.


Look what we've driven good people to have to do. For shame!


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

Yup my wife said the polling station in upper norwood was very busy. She said there must have been 20+ i front of her at 7am.


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## redsquirrel (Dec 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Doubt the conservatives will actually do anything in their manifesto though.
> 
> Haven't last nine years.


The connection between the actions of all parties and the claims their manifestos always has been, and will be, weak. 

But that does not change the substantive point. 
The pressure for investment in public services, against cuts to the NHS/education/police etc, the support for re-nationalisation has pushed all parties to move (rhetorically at least) to the left in terms of economics. Let's remember in 2015 the LP was arguing for austerity* and yet Miliband's politics were proclaimed as "too left wing". Now in 2019 the Conservative Party is calling for more investment in public services. Even under May (a PM that in my view was far more enamoured of austerity than Johnson) there was a change in direction - student fee's not increasing in line with inflation, an above inflation increase for teachers and others in the public sector. 

I'm not claiming that the Tories (or LDs) have broken with a commitment to neoliberalism, of course they haven't, but sleaters invocation of "Tory austerity" is dishonest garbage, particularly when (1) "austerity" started under the type of LP, and political ideology, he supports and (2) for all his faults Corbyn has been key in moving the LP back towards a social democratic politics.   


*Personally I dislike this creation of austerity as something that started in 2008, when it is really a continuation of policies that have had a far longer existence, but I'll use it for convenience sake.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 12, 2019)

Boris was still going on about 40 new hospitals at his last rally. Like Trump's campaign, many of his supporters know this is a lie but still support him. Are the lies worse in this elections and is this related to social media influence?


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

Queue at the polling station - never seen that before, but could be people voting before going to work.


----------



## Winot (Dec 12, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Queue at the polling station - never seen that before, but could be people voting before going to work.



My (London) Twitter feed all reporting unusually long queues.


----------



## rekil (Dec 12, 2019)

SpunkingCockQuake


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 12, 2019)

I have a soft spot for polling stations. The flickering light outside, "books for 50p", all dog eared and creased, community notices pinned to walls, the stoic looking and very dry polling staff. Two ballot boxes for an arbitrary split down the map, streets on a poster behind the men so no way of knowing without asking anyway. That brief moment of absolute secrecy, a few grabbed seconds of held breath, and then out.


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## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

My polling station is in a church. One other end of town is the back room of a boozer.

I had a mate I was really close to PM me for the first communication we've had in a couple of years to ask me if I'm voting Labour. I may have had a little rant (without being unkind).


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## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

Ptolemy said:


> Just got back from voting. Busy; there was a substantial queue already. I wonder what turnout will be this time around.
> 
> I second skyscraper - let's get the Tories out of office.



Yes queue for me too. Only other time i've had to queue here that early in the morning was the eu referendum.

The amount of tory leaflets i have received in the last week spooked me so i changed my plans from cock and balls and voted labour.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

Winot said:


> My (London) Twitter feed all reporting unusually long queues.


I can't ever remember seeing a queue before.  About 40 people waiting at mine.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> I have a soft spot for polling stations. The flickering light outside, "books for 50p", all dog eared and creased, community notices pinned to walls, the stoic looking and very dry polling staff. Two ballot boxes for an arbitrary split down the map, streets on a poster behind the men so no way of knowing without asking anyway. That brief moment of absolute secrecy, a few grabbed seconds of held breath, and then out.


Mine is very similar - a community room in a housing block for elderly people - including a random collection of books and a framed picture of the cast of Corrie on the wall for some reason.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> This is total garbage from start to finish.
> Others have already dealt with the deranged allegations of people being "trots" (a word you clearly have not the slightest understanding of).


 I have not the slightest understanding of the internecine bs on the far left, that’s true.


> But the stuff about "Tory austerity" is garbage too. For a start "austerity" was not a Tory thing, it was a policy backed, and implemented, by Labour, it was a policy backed and implemented by the LDs. But it is also not a policy in any parties 2019 manifesto.


 oh, so it didn’t happen in 2019 then?. Great stuff.


> There are plenty of criticism to be made of the LP under Corbyn but one thing it has helped to achieve is to at least challenge the economic consensus. The Tory manifesto of 2019 is not just to the left (economically) of the Tory manifesto's of 2017 or 2015, it is to the left of the Labour manifesto's of 2010 and 2015.


They’ve achieved fuck all.

Posting links to manifestos, like you expect them to be carried out.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 12, 2019)

Big queue here too. Lots of young people.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

When I eventually got to the front of the queue, after listening to those in front reel off their addresses my mind went completely blank when the clerk asked for mine and I told her I'd forgotten where I live.  Luckily I'd brought the polling card with me.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## Winot (Dec 12, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Big queue here too. Lots of young people.



They probably think it’s a cool new breakfast place.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I can't ever remember seeing a queue before.  About 40 people waiting at mine.



A mate on fb has just said the same, never had to queue but did this morning!


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2019)

maybe random poll twitter man "centrist telephone" or whatever his name was was right and pollsters have been underexpecting turnout based on previous elections (using 2015 figures according to him IIRC)


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2019)

My local polling station was deserted, even at school run time. Glad others are busier.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> My local polling station was deserted, even at school run time. Glad others are busier.


Passed two in Sidcup on the way to work, no queues, no-one entering or exiting.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Anyone else (Unite members) had a text from Unite asking to be sure and vote Labour then text V after voting?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 12, 2019)

no one in the queue when I went at 7.30 , a cold Tory was sitting out side, started to say something to me and was cut off with a sharp

'No thank you' ( Lucky it was as polite as that tbh)

and in I went and voted with my heart


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2019)

flypanam said:


> Passed two in Sidcup on the way to work, no queues, no-one entering or exiting.


Oh.

And the school run thing is important here because it is directly opposite the school in quite a Labour-supporting area. I don't know about Sidcup. 

Hope it picks up soon. (Our Labour MP is actually decent but under threat).


----------



## maomao (Dec 12, 2019)

I walked past mine two hours before opening. Will vote tonight on the way home. Only people at work who'll admit to voting are one for Brexit and one Tory.

I sleep 9pm to 4am normally. No point falling asleep in front of the telly at eleven so I'll set my alarm for two instead. If there's carnage that'll be right in the middle of it.


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## JimW (Dec 12, 2019)

ruffneck23 said:


> ...and in I went and voted with my heart


Made me use a pencil


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 12, 2019)

JimW said:


> Made me use a pencil


less mess


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## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

JimW said:


> Made me use a pencil


i wouldn't use a pencil since the eu referendum when i was given an eraser to alter my ballot. i would always use ink.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> Oh.
> 
> And the school run thing is important here because it is directly opposite the school in quite a Labour-supporting area. I don't know about Sidcup.
> 
> Hope it picks up soon. (Our Labour MP is actually decent but under threat).


Sidcup is solid Tory, hope none of them make it the polls or that they take the scum's advice and tick every box.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

maomao said:


> I walked past mine two hours before opening. Will vote tonight on the way home. Only people at work who'll admit to voting are one for Brexit and one Tory.
> 
> I sleep 9pm to 4am normally. No point falling asleep in front of the telly at eleven so I'll set my alarm for two instead. If there's carnage that'll be right in the middle of it.


there will be blood


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 12, 2019)

Just back from the voting. It seemed very busy. I asked the polling staff if they felt it had been busier than usual, and they said it had.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

What are the odds of three new party leaders by Monday?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Just back from the voting. It seemed very busy. I asked the polling staff if they felt it had been busier than usual, and they said it had.


i can report busyness in hackney north and stoke newington too


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> What are the odds of three new party leaders by Monday?


0

sadly most political parties take longer than a weekend to decide on their new leaders. unless there's some three-way collision in which swinson, corbyn and johnson all roll a seven.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

the most pathetic thing i've seen during this entire election campaign was the green candidate in hackney north and stoke newington standing beside diane abbott this morning and shouting 'vote green to keep the pressure on labour in hackney'. 

the 2017 result:


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> 0
> 
> sadly most political parties take longer than a weekend to decide on their new leaders. unless there's some three-way collision in which swinson, corbyn and johnson all roll a seven.


As in tory win but Johnson loses seat and labour and Lib Dem’s dump their 
Incumbents.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> What are the odds of three new party leaders by Monday?



Corbyns going nowhere quickly unless Labour win.

If Labour do badly it'll be 3 months of fighting. Then maybe he'll stand down, maybe. Probably a leadership election.

If they do ok Corbyn will claim victory and hang on for a year or two.

If they somehow win convincingly Corbyn will be in office for a year or so before sorting out a successor.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> As in tory win but Johnson loses seat and labour and Lib Dem’s dump their
> Incumbents.


i prefer a different option, where johnson is pecked to death by a waddle of penguins, swinson is trampled to death by a string of shetland ponies and corbyn has a heart attack on learning he's the only major party leader left alive.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i prefer a different option, where johnson is pecked to death by a waddle of penguins, swinson is trampled to death by a string of shetland ponies and corbyn has a heart attack on learning he's the only major party leader left alive.


So it is possible?


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 12, 2019)

Tableau Public

This looks pretty good, for later. Provides eta's of each districts results, along with latest (MRRP poll) prediction


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> So it is possible?


i've had a team working on this scenario for months and while it's impossible to ensure success, believe me when i say we've tried.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i've had a team working on this scenario for months and while it's impossible to ensure success, believe me when i say we've tried.



As the CIA say, Coincidences take a lot of planning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> As the CIA say, Coincidences take a lot of planning.


yeh but i told them to sling their hook when they couldn't promise to deliver a hundred trained assassin penguins


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i prefer a different option, where johnson is pecked to death by a waddle of penguins, swinson is trampled to death by a string of shetland ponies and corbyn has a heart attack on learning he's the only major party leader left alive.



and larry the cat gets a peerage so he can lead a government of national unity...


----------



## [62] (Dec 12, 2019)

Very busy in St Thomas, Exeter too. And it's pissing it down.

To tie up the anecdotal loose ends, the only party that knocked on our door was Labour, the only window labels and placards I've seen are Labour, and the only party at the polling station were Labour. My wife was talking to a local Labour councillor, though, and he's quite nervous and taking nothing for granted.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

[62] said:


> Very busy in St Thomas, Exeter too. And it's pissing it down.
> 
> To tie up the anecdotal loose ends, the only party that knocked on our door was Labour, the only window labels and placards I've seen are Labour, and the only party at the polling station were Labour. My wife was talking to a local Labour councillor, though, and he's quite nervous and taking nothing for granted.



That's a Labour-held seat there isn't it?


----------



## prunus (Dec 12, 2019)

Longest queue I’ve even seen (Herne Hill ward, Dulwich and West Norwood).   Not that the result here is in any doubt.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2019)

I've got a proxy vote to do as well as my own, and its rightful owner has no way of knowing what I actually do with it. Ultra safe labour seat. Never felt so powerful.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 12, 2019)

Maybe we should post pics/infos about queues?


----------



## [62] (Dec 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's a Labour-held seat there isn't it?



It is. Exeter has been held by the same MP since 1997 with a 16,000 majority last time round.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2019)

long queues seem to be mainly in safe lab seats....curious about these though


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

No queue at my polling station, despite it being dropping off time at the school around the corner.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> No queue at my polling station, despite it being dropping off time at the school around the corner.


Where are you, if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## 19force8 (Dec 12, 2019)

I don't know much about election law, but this sounds a bit naughty:


----------



## weepiper (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> No queue at my polling station, despite it being dropping off time at the school around the corner.


Aren't primary schools generally closed to be used for polling stations? Ours is.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Where are you, if you don't mind me asking?



Worthing, safe Tory seat, 55% last time.



weepiper said:


> Aren't primary schools generally closed to be used for polling stations? Ours is.



My polling station is a church hall.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> long queues seem to be mainly in safe lab seats....curious about these though
> View attachment 192712


 We could be curious, or we could surmise that the labour vote is motivated and see what happens.


----------



## andysays (Dec 12, 2019)

weepiper said:


> Aren't primary schools generally closed to be used for polling stations? Ours is.


They are traditionally (I remember having not one but two days off in 1974) though I think they're trying to move away from this where possible. 

My local polling station moved recently from a primary school to a church hall. In some places there may not be a suitable alternative to the school though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

Pissing down here in Reading East. No queues at 9:30. But busier than it's been in the past at 8:00.


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2019)

weepiper said:


> Aren't primary schools generally closed to be used for polling stations? Ours is.


I have NEVER understood this. So many unused churches and church halls. WTF? You can't even go to work if your kids are off school.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 12, 2019)

The final opinion polls were looking brighter but not a lot will be worth shouting about until the exit polls results, then it's still well short of sure. I'm still hoping for a shock result in Labour's favour but realistically I think the best we can hope for is a hung parliament, preferably with johnson hanged first.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> I have NEVER understood this. So many unused churches and church halls. WTF? You can't even go to work if your kids are off school.


yeh should be some secondary schools used too


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The final opinion polls were looking brighter but not a lot will be worth shouting about until the exit polls results, then it's still well short of sure. I'm still hoping for a shock result in Labour's favour but realistically I think the best we can hope for is a hung parliament, preferably with johnson hanged first.


In the unlikely event labour end up biggest party, will you shut up?


----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> I have NEVER understood this. So many unused churches and church halls. WTF? You can't even go to work if your kids are off school.


My dad put me to work campaigning for Labour on polling days when the school was closed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

Election Day should be a Bank Holiday.


----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

But not "dry" like in Mexico.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> In the unlikely event labour end up biggest party, will you shut up?



If that happened, he would implode.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> long queues seem to be mainly in safe lab seats....curious about these though
> View attachment 192712


I am Colne Valley. Last GE, Labour took it by 879 or something. I voted at 0702 in -1°, no queues but an expectation of bad weather:


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The final opinion polls were looking brighter but not a lot will be worth shouting about until the exit polls results, then it's still well short of sure. I'm still hoping for a shock result in Labour's favour but realistically I think the best we can hope for is a hung parliament, preferably with johnson hanged first.


that's a really daft thing to say. hang johnson last so he can know that all his hopes have turned to tinsel


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> My dad put me to work campaigning for Labour on polling days when the school was closed.


This is admirable of course but many people don't have the luxury of being able to take paid time off work to look after kids, and all for the sake of not using a huge empty church building for some reason. It seems ridiculous. Schools just aren't a logical place to put a polling booth.


----------



## LDC (Dec 12, 2019)

Just voted for the first time in my life. I was the only person in a small hall staffed by three people sitting behind a wobbly plastic table looking very bored while ticking my name off a badly printed list. Into the hastily knocked together plywood booth to tick a box with a half pencil that looked like it had be nicked from Argos. All in all a distinctly underwhelming experience leaving me feeling slightly depressed and dirty.

Felt like the democratic equivalent of that shit Lapland Xmas experience in Essex or wherever it was.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Poot said:


> This is admirable of course but many people don't have the luxury of being able to take paid time off work to look after kids, and all for the sake of not using a huge empty church building for some reason. It seems ridiculous. Schools just aren't a logical place to put a polling booth.


Why are schools used as polling places? although this is about scotland a similar rationale seems to exist in england and wales too


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> All in all a distinctly underwhelming experience leaving me feeling slightly depressed and dirty.



Innit. Hate voting, always leave feeling quite dejected, like how I'd imagine i'd feel leaving a brothel


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just voted for the first time in my life. I was the only person in a small hall staffed by three people sitting behind a wobbly plastic table looking very bored while ticking my name off a badly printed list. Into the hastily knocked together plywood booth to tick a box with a half pencil that looked like it had be nicked from Argos. All in all a distinctly underwhelming experience leaving me feeling slightly depressed and dirty.


yeh the feeling's like coming out of some seedy soho establishment


----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just voted for the first time in my life. I was the only person in a small hall staffed by three people sitting behind a wobbly plastic table looking very bored while ticking my name off a badly printed list. Into the hastily knocked together plywood booth to tick a box with a half pencil that looked like it had be nicked from Argos. All in all a distinctly underwhelming experience leaving me feeling slightly depressed and dirty.



In 2017 I felt soiled voting Labour.

Today I didn't.


----------



## LDC (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh the feeling's like coming out of some seedy soho establishment



Promised so much, yet delivered so little...


----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

I wonder if the polls are taking into account the massive potential swing of spunking cock towards Labour across seats all over the country?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> In 2017 I felt soiled voting Labour.
> 
> Today I didn't.


Is your labour candidate alright? Might make a difference whereas voting for a blairite or remain headbanger...


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just voted for the first time in my life. I was the only person in a small hall staffed by three people sitting behind a wobbly plastic table looking very bored while ticking my name off a badly printed list. Into the hastily knocked together plywood booth to tick a box with a half pencil that looked like it had be nicked from Argos. All in all a distinctly underwhelming experience leaving me feeling slightly depressed and dirty.
> 
> Felt like the democratic equivalent of that shit Lapland Xmas experience in Essex or wherever it was.


Makes me realise - you don't know whose grubby mitts have left their skin grease on the pencils at polling station.  A good reason to vote early on.


----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is your labour candidate alright? Might make a difference whereas voting for a blairite or remain headbanger...



No idea. Don't care. He doesn't get my support beyond that pencilled X.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

Polling station here (inner city, safe labour seat) was dead apart from me.

Got exit polled on the way out. Answered to the best of my ability but I honestly don't remember if I voted in 2017, never mind who for.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Innit. Hate voting, always leave feeling quite dejected, like how I'd imagine i'd feel leaving a brothel


Think of the money, though.


----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

I also had to show a lost looking young lad where the polling station was. #youthquake


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## Lord Camomile (Dec 12, 2019)

One person in front of me in the 'queue', and another already in the 'booth' (it's not a booth, looked more like those public urinals  ).

There was a dog outside, but I currently don't have a phone so couldn't take a picture


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Makes me realise - you don't know whose grubby mitts have left their skin grease on the pencils at polling station.  A good reason to vote early on.


and to use your own pen


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 12, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> I’m not going to be voting tomorrow.
> 
> Corbyn and his advisors, Milne and Murray are trots and are responsible for attracting more trots to the party, and I fucking hate trots. I don’t think they’re capable of engaging with the public at large or even the working class and I hate the toxic bullshit they bring with them.
> 
> ...



I'm a Trot. They are not Trots. You're a dribbling moron and I would hate you if you were even worthy of hatred, but you're not.


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


>




Wonder if we will see similar, in say, Bolsover?


----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> Wonder if we will see similar, in say, Bolsover?


Mansfield is going to be gutted you've all moved on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm a Trot. They are not Trots. You're a dribbling moron and I would hate you if you were even worthy of hatred, but you're not.


i think even the late great 'uncle' joe stalin would agree with you on that one


----------



## iona (Dec 12, 2019)

About five people queueing in front of me just now and maybe ten more came in before I left. People handing out ballots said it'd been loads busier than usual.

Polling station was in a little theatre (had to go outside in the rain to get there  I used to live in my previous polling station) and there were loads of props stacked up everywhere, including a big BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU sign right above some of the booths 

E2a I'm in Brighton Pavilion


----------



## marty21 (Dec 12, 2019)

weepiper said:


> Aren't primary schools generally closed to be used for polling stations? Ours is.


Ours too, the kids weren't given the day off ((((kids)))) despite there being signs everywhere, a couple of kids excitedly pointed me in the direction of the polling station


----------



## krink (Dec 12, 2019)

our primary now stays open for polling day as they don't get many in so not worth closing. it's on one of the most deprived estates in the city.


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## Kaka Tim (Dec 12, 2019)

my facebook is wall to wall with people giving it the "vote labour/kick out the tories" - many many people I know have been out canvassing for the first time in their lives. Reports of big queues and its clear their has been big efforts in terms voter registration and getting out the vote from the young and politically engaged. Some people are already getting giddy from what they see. 

But ..... there is also a very large chunk of people who are dead set on "getting brexit done" - they are less visible, less socially engaged, generally older - but they are out there - those plus 40% tory poll ratings are almost certainly accurate. Will they go out and vote in the cold? especially the brexit minded ex-labour voters. They turned out for the referendum - will they do so again for Boris Johnson and the tories?  

Its entirely possible that the labour vote has been underestimated again - and there are so many atypical variables this time around that the polls could be wrong again - but I fear this will not be 2017 again. A smallish tory majority is probably the most likely outcome - but it may be that labours traditional base deserts to the tories in unprecedented numbers - and i fear that if their is going to be an upset - it will be that, rather than another late corbyn surge. 

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

I’m giving the boy my vote as he’s not 18 for a month or so . Break the law, break the law as Judas Priest wisely advised


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Just been to vote (Labour of course) in my fairly sleepy town and there were 11 other people there which is decent for 10:45 on a working day.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Just been to vote (Labour of course) in my fairly sleepy town and there were 11 other people there which is decent for 10:45 on a working day.


No day's a working day for Labour voters, am I riiiiiiiiiiiiiight?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> No day's a working day for Labour voters, am I riiiiiiiiiiiiiight?


yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> No day's a working day for Labour voters, am I riiiiiiiiiiiiiight?


no day's a working day for tory bigwigs

they live off unearned income


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no day's a working day for tory bigwigs
> 
> they live off unearned income



It is earned. Just not by them.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


>



brianelects is not a reliable source of polling data.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 12, 2019)

wrt to big queues - could this maybe to do with people wanting to vote early cos not wanting to go out in the dark (#PissingOnEveryonesChips)?


----------



## strung out (Dec 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> brianelects is not a reliable source of polling data.


More or less reliable than Britain Erects?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> brianelects is not a reliable source of polling data.


damn - i checked for erections, but not for Brians


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> wrt to big queues - could this maybe to do with people wanting to vote early cos not wanting to go out in the dark (#PissingOnEveryonesChips)?



Who knows what it means but it was dark at 7.10am when i voted and i had to queue (which is unusual at that time where i live.)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> wrt to big queues - could this maybe to do with people wanting to vote early cos not wanting to go out in the dark (#PissingOnEveryonesChips)?



Yes also the only half decent weather forecasted today was before 10am. Freezing rain here atm.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just voted for the first time in my life. I was the only person in a small hall staffed by three people sitting behind a wobbly plastic table looking very bored while ticking my name off a badly printed list. Into the hastily knocked together plywood booth to tick a box with a half pencil that looked like it had be nicked from Argos. All in all a distinctly underwhelming experience leaving me feeling slightly depressed and dirty.
> 
> Felt like the democratic equivalent of that shit Lapland Xmas experience in Essex or wherever it was.


Started out promising, but lost me at the Argos pencil bit as anyone who shops at argos knows the use betting shop pens.

6/10


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> damn - i checked for erections, but not for Brians



There is only one Brian and he elects who he chooses.


----------



## kazza007 (Dec 12, 2019)

I voted Labour by post. I feel I'm missing out on polling booth action. Could I voted in person if signed up to postal vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


>



i'd love it if the labour man's elected with a majority of 1 as johnson cast his vote elsewhere.

i'd prefer it, mind, if the unspeakable johnson lost by a substantial margin


----------



## elbows (Dec 12, 2019)

I see the fucking sun has resorted to lightbulbs again, pushing the theme towards something I'd regard as self-parody territory if it wasnt the fucking sun I was talking about.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> brianelects is not a reliable source of polling data.



Don't they just tweet results from the various polling companies, in this case, Deltapoll?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

My neighbours voting intentions:

Self employed plumber bloke downstairs has never voted in his life and won't be today 
Couple across the hall both work in logistics and can't be bothered to vote 
Interesting is the self employed Italian mechanic (who is married to a Polish NHS nurse) has voted UKIP because he is sick of immigrants

Solid turn out


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

elbows said:


> I see the fucking sun has resorted to lightbulbs again, pushing the theme towards something I'd regard as self-parody territory if it wasnt the fucking sun I was talking about.


i only wish they'd place that lightbulb where the sun don't shine


----------



## Ptolemy (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Don't they just tweet results from the various polling companies, in this case, Deltapoll?



BrianElects is a parody account! Seen it before, but it got me this time.


----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Don't they just tweet results from the various polling companies, in this case, Deltapoll?


britainelects do that. brianelects tweets made up polls for clicks


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

Ptolemy said:


> BrianElects is a parody account! Seen it before, but it got me this time.



OK. I missed it was *Brian*Elects, fucking dyslexic twat.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> OK. I missed it was *Brian*Elects.


Basically trust nothing. It's all there to cause confusion.


----------



## Ptolemy (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> OK. I missed it was *Brian*Elects, fucking dyslexic twat.



I got excited about the Uxbridge poll and didn't look closely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Ptolemy said:


> I got excited about the Uxbridge poll and didn't look closely.


i'd still love it if that low wretch johnson is ejected by the burghers of uxbridge


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> OK. I missed it was *Brian*Elects, fucking dyslexic twat.


Lots of people retweeting it, including Hugh Grant.

Don't know if that makes you feel better or worse 

(To be honest, I assumed it was real too)


----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

always double check any poll that looks good for Labour is a rule of thumb to live by.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Lots of people retweeting it, including Hugh Grant.
> 
> Don't know if that makes you feel better or worse
> 
> (To be honest, I assumed it was real too)




Won't do any harm eh


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> My neighbours voting intentions:
> 
> Couple across the hall both work in logistics and can't be bothered to vote
> 
> ...



Who would they have voted for previously?


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

Three Lib Dem leaflets in my letter box, I don't fucking think so.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 12, 2019)

Centrist Phone is not a reliable source of...etc.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Centrist Phone is not a reliable source of...etc.


Shh! We only question reliability when it's something we don't want to hear!


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> Centrist Phone is not a reliable source of...etc.


Wish somebody would disconnect the cunt tbh, he's done my head in on here last few days


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


>



see my 4818


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 12, 2019)

Postal vote, put this shit down days ago, no out in the rain, no ignoring or interacting involved.

Disappointed that Laura bin opening my letters.


----------



## elbows (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wish somebody would disconnect the cunt tbh, he's done my head in on here last few days



Yeah, when someone tries much too hard to come up with hopeful news, it tends to have the opposite effect in my mind.

Having said that, someone from Labour just knocked on my door in 'used to be a marginal but looks way harder for Labour to win here these days' Nuneaton.


----------



## inva (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Wish somebody would disconnect the cunt tbh, he's done my head in on here last few days


Disconnect them all. Breathless twats, pompous strategists, conspiracy theorists.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> The connection between the actions of all parties and the claims their manifestos always has been, and will be, weak.
> 
> But that does not change the substantive point.
> The pressure for investment in public services, against cuts to the NHS/education/police etc, the support for re-nationalisation has pushed all parties to move (rhetorically at least) to the left in terms of economics. Let's remember in 2015 the LP was arguing for austerity* and yet Miliband's politics were proclaimed as "too left wing". Now in 2019 the Conservative Party is calling for more investment in public services. Even under May (a PM that in my view was far more enamoured of austerity than Johnson) there was a change in direction - student fee's not increasing in line with inflation, an above inflation increase for teachers and others in the public sector.
> ...



Yes. Spot on. It’s like the 70’s in reverse. Lots of elections. The nation divided. A political economy unraveling. Both parties forced to move to accommodate it. How best to manage and, ultimately safeguard, it must be said, capitalism up for debate and ownership. Forced by pressure bubbling up from below (albeit in a different form)

whatever happens today this is the key underlying narrative of what’s happening and been happening for the last 5 or 6 years.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Who would they have voted for previously?


They have voted Labour in the past but not regular voters


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

Busy today in Peckham


----------



## hash tag (Dec 12, 2019)

I can't go to vote yet as my favourite brewery doesn't open until 5 and it's next door to the polling station


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

General Election 2019: Longest voting queues ever at polling stations | Metro News

Huge general election day turnout with massive queues and polling stations '15 times busier'


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> General Election 2019: Longest voting queues ever at polling stations | Metro News
> 
> Huge general election day turnout with massive queues and polling stations '15 times busier'


your top article: while i was reading it 'vote tory' adds popped up


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> your top article: while i was reading it 'vote tory' adds popped up



The cunts are everywhere! 

No pop ups for me on phone.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm getting an awful lot of pro tory ads on my FB this morning , I'm reporting every one of them


----------



## strung out (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> General Election 2019: Longest voting queues ever at polling stations | Metro News
> 
> Huge general election day turnout with massive queues and polling stations '15 times busier'


15 times busier means that turnout should be 1035%. Good news for Labour?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 12, 2019)

voted in leeds west. solid labour. no queues. was amazed to get a leaflet from an SDP candidate - promising "more council houses/lower immigration/leave the EU and Railway Nationalisation". The guy looks about 40 - so he would have been about 8 years old when the SDP were in their .... "pomp". What led him on such a disturbing political journey?  Who the fuck is the SDP now? IS it all paid for out of the David Owen trust fund or something?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 12, 2019)

Voted just before lunch at local library a few hundred metres away. A few people in but no queue, canvassers outside for Labour & Green (remain alliance) looking a bit bored and wet. Fairly safe Labour, 80% remain vote, Greens putting some effort in.


----------



## gawkrodger (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> My neighbours voting intentions:
> 
> Self employed plumber bloke downstairs has never voted in his life and won't be today
> Couple across the hall both work in logistics and can't be bothered to vote
> ...



My neighbours on the one side are a lovely sikh family who wanted to vote Green but candidate has stood down to support Labour so are voting Labour.

In the one occupied flat on the other side is a small time drug dealer who is disabled and claims benefits.* He is the only person for about 5 roads with a Tory poster and sign up. 

*pretty sure in his younger years he had some stiff-arm tendencies


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

Mirror is saying big queues at some polling stations. The queue at mine wasn't as dramatic as the one's in these photos but it was busier than usual. 

'Busiest ever' polling stations with huge queues of voters to cast their ballot


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 12, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> Who the fuck is the SDP now? IS it all paid for out of the David Owen trust fund or something?



the residual SDP and the Liberal Party both got re-constituted, albeit in quite small scale, after the merger, by members who did not want to merge, and each has had a handful of local councillors since.

what the latter have to say about the lib dems is fairly amusing.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 12, 2019)

Appeared on the side of the abandoned Wey Inn in Godalming overnight...


----------



## gawkrodger (Dec 12, 2019)

in the Black Country marginal I'm in we've had some reports of polling stations in some of the strongest Labour wards being busier than expected.

LP people now seem quietly confident we will retain this marginal but there seem to be serious concerns about one of the relatively safe seats in the city (suggestions seem to be that a largely left membership predominatly failed to turn out for a Blairite MP and have had low numbers canvassing (esp. compare to the other consitituencies in the city) and some people are now being encouraged to redirect themselves to the north of the city)


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## quimcunx (Dec 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Polls poised between about 6% lead (hung parliament-ish) and 15% (the horror, the horror...). But whilst the Tory leads are all over the place I suspect the real lead has been set in stone for a while. Lots of voters self describe as not yet decided and Labour will have a final bash on the NHS + the photo of the kiddie on the floor in A&E, so, who knows. Same time, it doesn't feel like the campaign has shifted the fundamental dynamics of the election. This is still about Brexit and Labour's vacillation/loss of working class voters. Realise that's a bit broad brush and the election has different issues in place in different parts of the country. But I'm trying to get at the 'feel of it' - and it feels like the playing out of the referendum and the grim inevitability of it all.



Sorry this is days back and I've not read past it.

I've been nosing  on mumsnet and reasons for voting tory and/or not voting labour:

Corbyn is a dangerous commie, friend to terrorists and anti semites
Corbyn not done enough to combat AS which is rife in the party
Corbyn will ruin the economy
I pay enough taxes thank you
Manifesto not costed/magic Money tree,


Busy polling stations this morning might be because xmas party season means people cant vote in the evening.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

strung out said:


> 15 times busier means that turnout should be 1035%. Good news for Labour?


Vote early, vote often.


----------



## Hollis (Dec 12, 2019)

High turnout must be good for Lab?  Hopefully Tories stay at home...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

quimcunx said:


> Busy polling stations this morning might be because xmas party season means people cant vote in the evening.


Yep. That and people not wanting to go out when it's cold and dark later on.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 12, 2019)

mine is a labour safe seat formerly held by kate hoey. glad she has gone. still going to vote labour, anyway


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 12, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


>




Blind, 93 year old mums turning out in force


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 12, 2019)

donkyboy said:


> mine is a labour safe seat formerly held by kate hoey. glad she has gone. still going to vote labour, anyway


I used to know her nephew.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 12, 2019)

I voted in a Tory / SNP marginal in mid morning, usually a quiet time. Certainly no queues, but polling station busier than expected and mainly younger voters. 

Hopefully a positive sign that the Tories are sinking here, at least.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Blind, 93 year old mums turning out in force


May well be false, but its a nice mental image.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 12, 2019)

On voting tory I forgot the whole trans debacle also cited on mumsnet as a reason to vote tory.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 12, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> May well be false, but its a nice mental image.


THAT KIND OF THINKING IS HOW WE GOT INTO THIS MESS!!


----------



## PursuedByBears (Dec 12, 2019)

quimcunx said:


> On voting tory I forgot the whole trans debacle also cited on mumsnet as a reason to vote tory.


What?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Blind, 93 year old mums turning out in force



Are all of the pointing at kids on hospital floors and calling them shirkers


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

quimcunx said:


> On voting tory I forgot the whole trans debacle also cited on mumsnet as a reason to vote tory.


Now that's a sentence that could be taken the wrong way. The 'I' next to 'On voting tory'. Dangerous.


----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> May well be false, but its a nice mental image.


The 93 year old mum meme is based on an obviously fake tweet from the EU referendum - details here: The Best Of The "93-Year-Old" Mum Voting Meme


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> The 93 year old mum meme is based on an obviously fake tweet from the EU referendum - details here: The Best Of The "93-Year-Old" Mum Voting Meme


Yeah, the bit about people cheering was too good to be true. That Iain Duncan Smith dickhead is going to win.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

Lord Camomile said:


> Blind, 93 year old mums turning out in force



I think there was a simalar tweet in the eu referendum. With the "people in the queue cheering" her voting leave. So i'd take that story with a pinch of salt.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

moochedit said:


> I think there was a simalar tweet in the eu referendum. With the "people in the queue cheering" her voting leave. So i'd take that story with a pinch of salt.



Killer b beat me too it!


----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

it's just an election joke rather than any kind of attempt to deceive though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

people queuing to kick boris johnson earlier


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Hoping to see more of this tomorrow


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

killer b said:


> The 93 year old mum meme is based on an obviously fake tweet from the EU referendum - details here: The Best Of The "93-Year-Old" Mum Voting Meme



That made me wonder how blind people do vote. It seems they don't make it easy for them..

It's still absurdly difficult for blind people to vote in the election | WIRED UK


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Now that's a sentence that could be taken the wrong way. The 'I' next to 'On voting tory'. Dangerous.



I just want to state for the record that I am *not* voting Tory.


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 12, 2019)

PursuedByBears said:


> What?



I was expanding on my previous post regarding reasons I'd seen given on mumsnet for voting Tory.


----------



## nagapie (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> people queuing to kick boris johnson earlier



How do you know these people are not voting Tory? Or is this in a safe Labour seat? Only asking to ease my anxiety.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

nagapie said:


> How do you know these people are not voting Tory? Or is this in a safe Labour seat? Only asking to ease my anxiety.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

quimcunx said:


> I was expanding on my previous post regarding reasons I'd seen given on mumsnet for voting Tory.


It is interesting reading the self-justifications. The real reason in almost every case will be 'fuck everyone else, I don't want to pay vat on school fees/I want a tax cut/I want to be able to charge my tenants whatever the fuck I want'.


----------



## N_igma (Dec 12, 2019)

nagapie said:


> How do you know these people are not voting Tory? Or is this in a safe Labour seat? Only asking to ease my anxiety.



Ask Laura Kuenssberg she knows.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2019)

quimcunx said:


> On voting tory I forgot


First we find out that danny la rouge is a dog hypnotist and now quimcunx is a tory


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

teuchter said:


> First we find out that danny la rouge is a dog hypnotist and now quimcunx is a tory


you don't find out very much, do you


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 12, 2019)

teuchter said:


> First we find out that danny la rouge is a dog hypnotist and now quimcunx is a tory


It’s OK, I hypnotised a dog to hypnotise quimmy not to vote Tory.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 12, 2019)

quimcunx said:


> On voting tory I forgot the whole trans debacle also cited on mumsnet as a reason to vote tory.



A former colleague of mine who was very New Labour and has basically been in a perpetual temper tantrum since Corbyn was elected has loudly announced that she has to vote Tory now as she can't possibly vote Lib Dem due to their stance on trans inclusion.

Which is funny as the last time she announced she was voting Tory it was definitely going to be a one-off.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is interesting reading the self-justifications. The real reason in almost every case will be 'fuck everyone else, I don't want to pay vat on school fees/I want a tax cut/I want to be able to charge my tenants whatever the fuck I want'.


I don't think that's true. I've had conversations with people who I'm confident aren't motivated by things like wanting to pay less tax, and do care about 'everyone else'. They have a genuine concern about anti-semitism for example. I think the anti-semitism thing is partly generational. A long conversation I had recently made me wonder if it's something I dismiss too easily because it's not something I've really directly seen in my life whereas older people may have.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> A former colleague of mine who was very New Labour and has basically been in a perpetual temper tantrum since Corbyn was elected has loudly announced that she has to vote Tory now as she can't possibly vote Lib Dem due to their stance on trans inclusion.
> 
> Which is funny as the last time she announced she was voting Tory it was definitely going to be a one-off.



Wow.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s OK, I hypnotised a dog to hypnotise quimmy not to vote Tory.


It didn't work though


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I don't think that's true. I've had conversations with people who I'm confident aren't motivated by things like wanting to pay less tax, and do care about 'everyone else'. They have a genuine concern about anti-semitism for example. I think the anti-semitism thing is partly generational. A long conversation I had recently made me wonder if it's something I dismiss too easily because it's not something I've really directly seen in my life whereas older people may have.


Hmmm. 'I'm worried about anti-semitism in labour, so I'm going to vote for a racist party led by an openly racist person instead.'


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 12, 2019)

teuchter said:


> It didn't work though


I know. I CAN’T FUCKING HYPNOTISE DOGS!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I know. I CAN’T FUCKING HYPNOTISE DOGS!



Oh, yes you can.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. 'I'm worried about anti-semitism in labour, so I'm going to vote for a racist party led by an openly racist person instead.'


To be clear, this is not someone who I think is going to vote tory. I was responding to reasons given to "not vote for labour" or for a dislike of Corbyn.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I know. I CAN’T FUCKING HYPNOTISE DOGS!


And look at the state of the nation as a result.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I know. I CAN’T FUCKING HYPNOTISE DOGS!


your powers have waned


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

teuchter said:


> To be clear, this is not someone who I think is going to vote tory. I was responding to reasons given to "not vote for labour" or for a dislike of Corbyn.


Ok. I was responding to quimcunx's post about reasons given to vote tory.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> your powers have waned


My powers remain the same:

- eventual recall
- room for pudding 
- the same tolerance to whisky as last time 
- foot sized mouth
- chocolate finding skillz


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> My powers remain the same:
> 
> - eventual recall
> - room for pudding
> ...


maybe the steps outlined here will help you regain your ability to put dogs into a trance


----------



## marty21 (Dec 12, 2019)

strung out said:


> 15 times busier means that turnout should be 1035%. Good news for Labour?


vote early, vote often


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 12, 2019)

Dianne Abbot came out in odd shoes 

Absolute trolling hero


----------



## marty21 (Dec 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Vote early, vote often.


damn you LBJ


----------



## JimW (Dec 12, 2019)

Are the dogs at polling stations some sort of zombie canine army under danny's fiendish sway?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

JimW said:


> Are the dogs at polling stations some sort of zombie canine army under danny's fiendish sway?


yes


----------



## JimW (Dec 12, 2019)

He's a known anarchist. The authorities must be notified.


----------



## andysays (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I know. I CAN’T FUCKING HYPNOTISE DOGS!


Don't give up Danny, keep practising and I'm sure you'll get the hang of it on the end


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 12, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Dianne Abbot came out in odd shoes
> 
> Absolute trolling hero


Well I hope so, but the both being left shoes suggests a panic to get to the taxi rather than design.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 12, 2019)

Garret Fitzgerald did the same back in the '80s. Turned out he had dressed in the dark so as not to disturbed his severely disable wife.

As for Abbott, I see that the story comes from the aptly-named Staines, of Guido Fawkes infamy.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Dianne Abbot came out in odd shoes
> 
> Absolute trolling hero


My understanding is that pic was faked


----------



## belboid (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> My understanding is that pic was faked


It's fake shoes??!! Whatever next


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 12, 2019)

Fake shoes


----------



## imposs1904 (Dec 12, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm a Trot. They are not Trots. You're a dribbling moron and I would hate you if you were even worthy of hatred, but you're not.



You're right about Murray and Milne. They're posh tankie cunts.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Interesting piece about who's funding the parties. Loads of Russian/Ukranian backing for the cunting Tories. 

Cider and oligarchs: Who is paying for the election?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 12, 2019)

report from wokingham constituency - 

further communication from lib dems through the door this morning, headed 'last chance to stop brexit' 

went to vote about 1430 as i'm off work sick and needed to go out for essentials as well.

no queue as such, but modest flow of people going to vote (it's a village hall sort of thing, so local schools would be in as usual) - don't know if that's usual for that time of day as i usually go in the evening.

one soggy (physically as well as probably politically) lib dem teller outside.  gave him my number to save getting anyone coming round this evening.

no dogs visible (probably mostly had the sense to stay out of the rain)

choice included a candidate for 'advance together' who i'd not previously noticed were standing or even that they exist.  

they sound like an alternative lib dem party (one suggestion is they are a lib dem front so they can spend more in key constituencies), which seems a bit weird - lib dems are putting a heck of a lot of effort in to this seat (they have a remainer ex tory mp from the neighbouring seat who quit the party - he's standing against a leaver / euro-septic incumbent tory) so possible risk of losing LD votes to AT.  Unless any of the 'vote lib dem' crap that came through the door was really issued / funded by AT (and not sure that's allowed.)  I'm not trawling through the recycling bin to find it now...


----------



## Santino (Dec 12, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> report from wokingham constituency -
> 
> further communication from lib dems through the door this morning, headed 'last chance to stop brexit'
> 
> ...


This lot? Another week, another new centrist party


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 12, 2019)

Santino said:


> This lot? Another week, another new centrist party



yes, them.  and her.

i didn't notice the thread at the time.  

to be fair, it looks like 99% of urban didn't notice it either


----------



## killer b (Dec 12, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> one suggestion is they are a lib dem front so they can spend more in key constituencies


this is absolute nonsense


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Probably won't surprise anyone here to read this.




The Yellow Tories have been making 'announcements' in this constituency that Labour have given up and voters need to vote LibDem 'tactically to keep the tories out. This has been by leaflet, while canvassing and on social media 

*ETA the polls have the LibDems a distant third behind Labour who were around 3000 short of the tory cunt *


----------



## Flavour (Dec 12, 2019)

what a gang of bastards. god i hate them so much. PLEASE let swinson lose her seat tonight


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

I have found over the last fifty odd years that there is nothing as untrustworthy as a working class tory voter.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

Flavour said:


> what a gang of bastards. god i hate them so much. PLEASE let swinson lose her seat tonight


. 


I got 5 /1 in this a little while ago


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

They need fucking strung up for lying like that. I cannot put into words how much I despise these slimy opportunistic fuckers


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> They need fucking strung up for lying like that. I cannot put into words how much I despise these slimy opportunistic fuckers


They are absolute weasels - I honestly think it's a byproduct of their politics, that it's fine to lie to thicko ordinaries as the end - liberal intelligentsia like us - justifies the means. Rat bastards. Libdems should be shot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> They are absolute weasels - I honestly think it's a byproduct of their politics, that it's fine to lie to thicko ordinaries as the end - liberal intelligentsia like us - justifies the means. Rat bastards. Libdems should be shot.


South atlantic industrial zone


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## a_chap (Dec 12, 2019)

Apologies if this has been posted already



Made me smile, anyway.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Probably won't surprise anyone here to read this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In a decent world they'd forfeit all their votes to Labour for such filthy, underhand, dishonest tactics.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 12, 2019)

Flavour said:


> what a gang of bastards. god i hate them so much. PLEASE let swinson lose her seat tonight



Result expected 3am, I believe.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> In a decent world they'd forfeit all their votes to Labour for such filthy, underhand, dishonest tactics.


In a decent world we would not have a Tory party at all 

What irks me is all the lies will go unpunished. The LibDem misinformation and the fake policy promises of the Tories.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 192768



"I prefer my parties to have a main course of being a massive cunt and unbiased contempt for all mankind"


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> In a decent world we would not have a Tory party at all
> 
> What irks me is all the lies will go unpunished. The LibDem misinformation and the fake policy promises of the Tories.


As will Facebook which has filled its coffers propagating these lies.


----------



## YouSir (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> As will Facebook which has filled its coffers propagating these lies.



This is always an odd thing to me, although having learnt it myself I understand the lesson. The media, business, of course they're against us. Always have been, always will be. Need more force to that message though, next generation shouldn't be suckered into thinking otherwise as most of us are by the weight of convention.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> Result expected 3am, I believe.



Bollocks i forgot to book tommorow off like i normally do


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> As will Facebook which has filled its coffers propagating these lies.


And the BBC, which hasn't, and actually faces losing out under the tories.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Bollocks i forgot to book tommorow off like i normally do



Me too, I’ll be nodding off by midday. Although in all fairness it may go unnoticed.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 12, 2019)

hash tag said:


> I can't go to vote yet as my favourite brewery doesn't open until 5 and it's next door to the polling station



It's wet I'm waiting to vote


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Really wet, windy and shit outside here in Hertfordshire.

The optimistic in me thought that might deter the older (tory) voters. The pessimistic in me thinks more likely the young voters will be staying home #lazyfecklessgeneration


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Biggest queue I've ever seen at my Brixton polling station and that was at 4.30pm, which wouldn't appear to be in line with any kind of work/school rush hour...


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

danny la rouge said:


> I know. I CAN’T FUCKING HYPNOTISE DOGS!



Yeah yeah yeah...riiiight..


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Really wet, windy and shit outside here in Hertfordshire.
> 
> The optimistic in me thought that might deter the older (tory) voters. The pessimistic in me thinks more likely the young voters will be staying home #lazyfecklessgeneration



Got fuckin soaked walking home. I’m going to the pub before voting. Mrs B still stuck in traffic due to Queen Caroline’s fuck up. Any Tory tellers on the door get told to fuck off.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr. QofG's is a Presiding Officer at a nearby polling station.

They've already surpassed the turnout for the European elections (not hard tbh) and about 50% of the electorate in this ward have already voted with some busy periods still to come.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And the BBC, which hasn't, and actually faces losing out under the tories.



and in its handling of this election will have lost the support of a fair chunk of the liberal / leftish types who would a year or two ago have been most likely to defend it...


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Bollocks i forgot to book tommorow off like i normally do


Am 'working' from home tomorrow. Going to be at the vote count tonight though. Hopefully only till about 2am as am doing ballot box security or some such nonsense. Hopefully won't get roped into the count as well this time.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 12, 2019)

In this brewery, I am reliably informed 6 people are queuing to vote


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 12, 2019)

Are these long queues I keep hearing about elsewhere other than London?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 12, 2019)

My polling station (in London) seemed no busier than normal.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 12, 2019)

I've just received an email from Mr Johnson saying the labour turnout is high. Let's hope so


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

My kind of polling station!


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Am 'working' from home tomorrow. Going to be at the vote count tonight though. Hopefully only till about 2am as am doing ballot box security or some such nonsense. Hopefully won't get roped into the count as well this time.


Can you slip in two million Labour votes while you're there? Ta.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

hash tag said:


> I've just received an email from Mr Johnson saying the labour turnout is high. Let's hope so



I wouldn’t believe a word the lousy, lying bastard uttered. Oh!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Are these long queues I keep hearing about elsewhere other than London?



Yes, a few scattered around. 

From what I'm hearing a lot are in student areas so mostly safe Labour anyway but a few outliers. Canterbury is a marginal and that's supposed to be queued up.


----------



## chilango (Dec 12, 2019)

Labour have got the ground game on in Reading East right now it appears...


----------



## weltweit (Dec 12, 2019)

dissapointed

No monster raving loony on my ballot paper 

/dissapointed


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

Work seems to be dominated by Labour voters, all expressing wild optimism at what might be. And mildly rebuking me for my cynicism.

Our propensity for hope in the face of the odds seemingly knows no bounds. Admirable perhaps but surely another kick in the teeth awaits. 

It really is the hope that kills.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

weltweit said:


> dissapointed
> 
> No monster raving loony on my ballot paper
> 
> /dissapointed



Spunking cock & be fucking done with it ffs!


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Can you slip in two million Labour votes while you're there? Ta.


Last time I had a UKIP cunt standing over me to check the counting


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Last time I had a UKIP cunt standing over me to check the counting



I hope you told him to back off or you’d break his jaw?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I hope you told him to back off or you’d break his jaw?




I did tell off a Tory for sneering in victory


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> I did tell off a Tory for sneering in victory



Surprised you didn’t glass the cunt


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Surprised you didn’t glass the cunt


Vote counts are a bit public for violence 

The person who got me the gig also said in her email 'for fucks sake don't wear one of those Corbyn shirts'


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> It really is the hope that kills.



That's what people kept saying about the Headingley test match.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

Upper Norwood polling station quiet at 5.30. One in front of me and about 9 behind me. Voted for Steve Reed, arch Blairite. Not feeling dirty but not happy either.


----------



## binka (Dec 12, 2019)

Back home from work, chippy tea eaten, tomorrow booked off, what time do I open the box of wine? Last time I peaked too early and was asleep by 1:30. Maybe I should go to sleep now and set my alarm for 21:55?


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Last time I had a UKIP cunt standing over me to check the counting



Yes and look where they are now!


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

binka said:


> Back home from work, chippy tea eaten, tomorrow booked off, what time do I open the box of wine? Last time I peaked too early and was asleep by 1:30. Maybe I should go to sleep now and set my alarm for 21:55?


I'm debating a nap.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

weltweit said:


> dissapointed
> 
> No monster raving loony on my ballot paper
> 
> /dissapointed



They are all monster raving loonies. Just don't pick the blue one.


----------



## eoin_k (Dec 12, 2019)

Out and about in High Barnett today: looked like Theresa Villiers might be hitting the after-dinner speaker circuit in the New Year.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Last time I had a UKIP cunt standing over me to check the counting



Should have put a rubber and pencil on the table to wind him up.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

Get a good nights sleep comrades. Tomorrow many shallow graves will need to be dug.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Vote counts are a bit public for violence
> 
> The person who got me the gig also said in her email 'for fucks sake don't wear one of those Corbyn shirts'



Bit chilly, don a Corbyn jumper instead


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

Everytime I've voted I was the only one in there (north west Durham) will see in about an hour?
Laura pidcock and usually a safe seat. However my friend was up from Liverpool and we went to the pub next to where the polling station is and the pub was rammed with Tories. I only know this because as we were playing pool we were discussing Corbyn and people were standing up shouting at us! Proper red faced fuckers . 
One bloke said the Tories saved his life because, 'if the prison system was softer he would've ended up back inside ' 
The poverty in surrounding old pit villages is awful and yet they still love the cunts 
I think mates are having a whip round to move me back to Liverpool. 
Somebody say something optimistic ..


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

I just voted - one person leaving as I was going in, another coming in as I left a minute later. Unusually non-weird officers, too


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 12, 2019)

Was nice earlier chatting to a lady at work , from the same voting area , who said she couldn’t vote Lib Dem or Tory and had to vote with her heart , like me . So at least lab have 2 votes in our area


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Get a good nights sleep comrades. Tomorrow one very large shallow grave will need to be dug.



FFY


----------



## shifting gears (Dec 12, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Everytime I've voted I was the only one in there (north west Durham) will see in about an hour?
> Laura pidcock and usually a safe seat. However my friend was up from Liverpool and we went to the pub next to where the polling station is and the pub was rammed with Tories. I only know this because as we were playing pool we were discussing Corbyn and people were standing up shouting at us! Proper red faced fuckers .
> One bloke said the Tories saved his life because, 'if the prison system was softer he would've ended up back inside '
> The poverty in surrounding old pit villages is awful and yet they still love the cunts
> ...



Soon be Christmas


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

shifting gears said:


> Soon be Christmas


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 12, 2019)

Queue at Leeds Central - not that it matters nailed on Labour seat


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 12, 2019)

I keep seeing on Facebook that seemingly many polling stations have a Tory outside asking for polling card numbers. Mine did it in a way that looked like he was there in an official capacity. I have heard some are not even identifying themselves as Tories. 
A. Is this legal?
B. What do they want with your polling card number.

I told my to do one obviously, but now I wish I had asked more questions.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 12, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I keep seeing on Facebook that seemingly many polling stations have a Tory outside asking for polling card numbers. Mine did it in a way that looked like he was there in an official capacity. I have heard some are not even identifying themselves as Tories.
> A. Is this legal?
> B. What do they want with your polling card number.
> 
> I told my to do one obviously, but now I wish I had asked more questions.



recently discussed (including the role of "knickers up") on another thread here-ish onward


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 12, 2019)

was in the vauxhall voting station. there was a bloke in front of me who took his ballot paper and then was just standing leaning against the window looking at the ballot paper. one of the stewards asked him what he was doing to which he replied he still is unsure who to vote for. I mean, FFS prick how long have you had to decide? As I dumped my paper in the ballot box, the steward asked him again whats going on and got the same I haven't decided yet reply.  whole thing just looked dodgy


----------



## MrSki (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Everytime I've voted I was the only one in there (north west Durham) will see in about an hour?
> Laura pidcock and usually a safe seat. However my friend was up from Liverpool and we went to the pub next to where the polling station is and the pub was rammed with Tories. I only know this because as we were playing pool we were discussing Corbyn and people were standing up shouting at us! Proper red faced fuckers .
> One bloke said the Tories saved his life because, 'if the prison system was softer he would've ended up back inside '
> The poverty in surrounding old pit villages is awful and yet they still love the cunts
> ...



Do you mean Labour now Tories, there were always WC tories, even in Durham, just kept a low profile.


----------



## girasol (Dec 12, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I keep seeing on Facebook that seemingly many polling stations have a Tory outside asking for polling card numbers. Mine did it in a way that looked like he was there in an official capacity. I have heard some are not even identifying themselves as Tories.
> A. Is this legal?
> B. What do they want with your polling card number.
> 
> I told my to do one obviously, but now I wish I had asked more questions.



Mmmm, someone asked for mine, what do they do with that information? I didn't say who I was voting for, they didn't ask. I guess it let's them know I'm a voter who voted iyswym, and they can target my address in the future?

It's ok, I got it.  I think I knew this but forgot... 





Maidmarian said:


> So that voters who have already voted don't get bothered by "knickers up" - either in person or on the phone


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

Quite a queue at our local station. Lots of younger voters too, whereas in it’s just been older yoghurt weavers. Here’s hoping Queen Caroline’s majority is properly bashed.


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Biggest queue I've ever seen at my Brixton polling station and that was at 4.30pm, which wouldn't appear to be in line with any kind of work/school rush hour...



Weighhing the votes there or say, Sheffield central won't make any difference really


----------



## agricola (Dec 12, 2019)

donkyboy said:


> was in the vauxhall voting station. there was a bloke in front of me who took his ballot paper and then was just standing leaning against the window looking at the ballot paper. one of the stewards asked him what he was doing to which he replied he still is unsure who to vote for. I mean, FFS prick how long have you had to decide? As I dumped my paper in the ballot box, the steward asked him again whats going on and got the same I haven't decided yet reply.  whole thing just looked dodgy



Was in there earlier and either he'd decided or had been washed away by the rain.


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and in its handling of this election will have lost the support of a fair chunk of the liberal / leftish types who would a year or two ago have been most likely to defend it...



They had already lost a fair bit of disabled and sick viewers, and some allies,  due to their appalling pro gov't(NL/Coalition/Tories under Oscam) coverage of the brutal welfare reforms, Panorama doc, the seminal 'Britain On The Sick', comes to mind, just as the NL Welfare Reform Bill was going through


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Quite a queue at our local station. Lots of younger voters too, whereas in it’s just been older yoghurt weavers. Here’s hoping Queen Caroline’s majority is properly bashed.


Just been back to our station. No queues but still busier than previous year, plus a more people in their 20s than I expected.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Police involved here which is good to see. Sadly any damage will have been done.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> Do you mean Labour now Tories, there were always WC tories, even in Durham, just kept a low profile.


one said they had swapped because of Corbyn. Some were all praising the good old days of MT. Wouldn't like to say really, it turned into a bit of a mob. It's surrounded by farms and my friend thought he was about to end up in a wicker man.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Whoops. Meant to post in the meme thread. Oh well, just as good here


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

> *Police have been called in after hundreds of ‘offensive and illegal’ posters featuring Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn were plastered across Sheffield in an overnight blitz.*
> 
> Campaigners have targeted streets, schools and polling stations in the Penistone and Stocksbridge constituency in an overnight attack, believed to have been orchestrated in the hours before polling stations opened at 7am yesterday.
> 
> ...



weird but very alarming, no idea who is doing this, ex BNP?

Police say matter for council, bet they wouldn't say that if they were about johnson


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

https://blogs.susu.org/blog/2019/12/12/statement-on-students-being-prevented-from-voting/

Voters being turned away seems to be getting reported in several places


----------



## krink (Dec 12, 2019)

glad i got a postal vote, it has pissed down all day here in sunderland. unfortunately, i have to go to lidl for election snax for later and it's still pissing down. kids can come with me, get them used to being miserable for the next five tory years.


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Police involved here which is good to see. Sadly any damage will have been done.




thats Crookes, not a Tory area, lots of graduates, students, but still wc in parts


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

Ricky


----------



## belboid (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Police involved here which is good to see. Sadly any damage will have been done.



Dunno why police are involved. It isnt flyposting, all a bit daft sayig they're illegal.

Put up by the 'Campaign Against Corbynism' set up by a Daily Express journo.

My spellcheck wants me to change Corbynism to Communism.  It's clearly fallen to CaC already.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Saw one of those Corbyn/kids posters this morning on the way into Grimsby, not even the town centre, just on an estate


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> Do you mean Labour now Tories, there were always WC tories, even in Durham, *just kept a low profile*.


Out of shame I guess.


----------



## elbows (Dec 12, 2019)

belboid said:


> Dunno why police are involved. It isnt flyposting, all a bit daft sayig they're illegal.
> 
> Put up by the 'Campaign Against Corbynism' set up by a Daily Express journo.
> 
> My spellcheck wants me to change Corbynism to Communism.  It's clearly fallen to CaC already.



One on a bus at Brunel University mentioned previously in the thread too: #4440


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

elbows said:


> One on a bus at Brunel University mentioned previously in the thread too: #4440


Fucking hell, that's bad.


----------



## belboid (Dec 12, 2019)

more detailed list of when every seat is due to be announced:
Election results timetable: what time do they start and when will they be declared in my area?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2019)

#BackBorris is trending on twitter


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> #BackBorris is trending on twitter


Tbf half of those are back boris into a fridge


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> #BackBorris is trending on twitter


What's that?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> #BackBorris is trending on twitter



Send the Turk back!


----------



## xenon (Dec 12, 2019)

Voted after work. Good job I checked polling card. Different station this time . A few people there. Apparently quite steady turn out day. Is a safe Labour seat. Bristol ;south.;;


----------



## binka (Dec 12, 2019)

New plan - fall asleep watching United struggle at home to AZ. Alarm set for 21:45


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

Apparently, this is Southampton Itchen, never before seen ques, but who are they all voting for?

majority of just 31 Tory.

'It is seen as the more working class of the two constituencies in the city'

Leavers?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 12, 2019)

Someone's worried...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

the not yet 18 boy is on his way clutching my poll card. he has worked out a plausible excuse if he gets pulled as well


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 12, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> I have not the slightest understanding of the internecine bs on the far left, that’s true.
> oh, so it didn’t happen in 2019 then?. Great stuff.
> They’ve achieved fuck all.
> 
> Posting links to manifestos, like you expect them to be carried out.


You really a totally dishonest twat. Are you now going to claim not not be in favour of austerity


sleaterkinney said:


> Labour need to be seen as economically competent and that means a plan to reduce the deficit and that means austerity, even within that there is room for manoeuvre. Letting the tories have successive governments will not bring around social democracy either.


No to "Tory austerity", yes to "New Labour austerity".


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> the not yet 18 boy is on his way clutching my poll card. he has worked out a plausible excuse if he gets pulled as well


Why didn't you go vote for his choice?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Why didn't you go vote for his choice?




the frission of excitement he will get when doing something that is not allowed


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> the not yet 18 boy is on his way clutching my poll card. he has worked out a plausible excuse if he gets pulled as well



Wise to admit publicly?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

its not actually true obvs


----------



## hash tag (Dec 12, 2019)

my station earlier today 
A neighbouring station, the lavender hill mob


----------



## magneze (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> the not yet 18 boy is on his way clutching my poll card. he has worked out a plausible excuse if he gets pulled as well


Why don't you simply vote his preference? Might save him some possible unnecessary bother with the police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Send the Turk back!


send him to fox bay west


----------



## 2hats (Dec 12, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Someone's worried...



Frankie Boyle is baiting him in near-real-time...


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 12, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Big queue here too. Lots of young people.



McDonalds?


----------



## MrSki (Dec 12, 2019)

There is still hope.


----------



## Sweet FA (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> Apparently, this is Southampton Itchen, never before seen ques, but who are they all voting for?
> 
> majority of just 31 Tory.
> 
> ...


I'm just down the road (Soton Test) and the queue was so big I sacked it off (going back now).


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

MrSki said:


> There is still hope.



I'll believe it when it's fact. Would be hilarious, mind


----------



## Sweet FA (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> Apparently, this is Southampton Itchen, never before seen ques, but who are they all voting for?
> 
> majority of just 31 Tory.
> 
> ...


That's right by Solent Uni.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 12, 2019)

this is tweeting a lot

#UxbridgeAndSouthRuislip


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 12, 2019)

lFrom local reports high turnout in my area Lambeth. I really hope this works well for Corbyn / McDonnell. As I've said previously one of my loyalist New Labour Cllrs told me that if Labour party do badly they will have another go at getting rid of Corbyn  ( he didn't say this but its clear to me getting the party back in control of the "centrists").


----------



## hash tag (Dec 12, 2019)

MrSki said:


> There is still hope.




Expect the worst, Hope for the best...


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Someone's worried...




I thought they weren't allowed to campaign during polling hours?


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

I do wonder if a lot of WC labour brexiteers just won't vote, any reports/photos, from bassetlaw, ashfield, bolsover, etc?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

moochedit said:


> I thought they weren't allowed to campaign during polling hours?


See the date


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> See the date



Tweet is today's date. Of course they could be old pictures.


----------



## bendeus (Dec 12, 2019)

Just asked in my polling station - Vale of Glamorgan. They told me that turnout has been 'unbelievable' and higher than anything they'd previously seen


----------



## MrSki (Dec 12, 2019)

hash tag said:


> Expect the worst, Hope for the best...


Pessimist is never disappointed & all that.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> McDonalds?



Nope, your mums house.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Tweet is today's date. Of course they could be old pictures.


Lol so it is. I've been a day ahead of myself all week


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

bendeus said:


> Just asked in my polling station - Vale of Glamorgan. They told me that turnout has been 'unbelievable' and higher than anything they'd previously seen



But what does that indicate, Tory win, Plaid?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 12, 2019)

So my wife and I voted by proxy, I filled out both forms (obvs we both signed respectively), gave the same name for my proxy vote, (my SIL), posted them in the same envelope well on time. When SIL turned up to vote, my proxy vote not recorded but my wife's was. SIL kicked up a fuss and was in the end allowed to cast my vote but wtf. Not suggesting conspiracy, just clerical incompetence.


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

Bookies shifting to Tory win again.

I have relatives in the N.E, they hate corbyn and i think will vote Tory,


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

They haven't closed loads of polling stations have they? Bloke on the bus said he'd had to go several miles to get to his (middle of cornwall though).


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Nothing indicates anything until it's indicated
Who knows. I feel like I'm watching the world like a film with a plot made in the cut up style and edited by a marmoset smashed on Benylin and alcopops


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> I do wonder if a lot of WC labour brexiteers just won't vote, any reports/photos, from bassetlaw, ashfield, bolsover, etc?



Someone that I know who has voted Ukip the last two times in a rural seaside town has voted Labour this time. Not sure if Brexit were standing there. It's no surprise as he nearly ended up on the streets due to sanctions and it took a lot of work to get him back to a safe place with no local support. 

Not reading much into as I'm ever a pessimist, but it is encouraging.


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

If the red wall crumbles, Johnson will owe, or will he just push the patrotism line.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## crossthebreeze (Dec 12, 2019)

Just realised that they probably did that deliberately eh?


----------



## bendeus (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> But what does that indicate, Tory win, Plaid?


Cairns currently has a 2.2k majority and Plaid aren't running. Either a reinforced Tory majority or a shock Labour win. Guess it's all down to who constitutes the increased turnout.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 12, 2019)

moochedit said:


> I thought they weren't allowed to campaign during polling hours?



Candidates canvas all the time on polling day. It's just unusual to see a PM doing so a couple of hours before polls close.


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

Could you tell a bit from the voters,age, etc?


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr. QofG's reckons 75% turnout in the polling station where he is.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> You really a totally dishonest twat. Are you now going to claim not not be in favour of austerity
> No to "Tory austerity", yes to "New Labour austerity".


Can you take this tedious shit to PM please?  We're talking about the GE, not the beef between 
the pair of you...


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 12, 2019)

shitting it here tbf


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 12, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Can you take this tedious shit to PM please?  We're talking about the GE, not the beef between
> the pair of you...


Yeah terrible to discuss politics in P&P.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Here's the current odds. I don't know enough about gambling to make sense of them 

UK General Election Betting Odds | Politics | Oddschecker


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'll believe it when it's fact. Would be hilarious, mind


Would be fucking glorious.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

binka said:


> New plan - fall asleep watching United struggle at home to AZ. Alarm set for 21:45


The Reds are now winning.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

I had an uncomfortable moment with a member of my staff today when he announced that he wasn't voting because he couldn't vote for an IRA sympathiser (He's ex army). All I could do was ask him if all his politics was decided by the tabloid press.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Here's the current odds. I don't know enough about gambling to make sense of them
> 
> UK General Election Betting Odds | Politics | Oddschecker



Not looking good. Bit of a dose of reality.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> The Reds are now winning.


Reds now winning by a landslide (2-0).


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

treelover said:


> I have relatives in the N.E, they hate corbyn and i think will vote Tory,


Disown them


----------



## marty21 (Dec 12, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Am 'working' from home tomorrow. Going to be at the vote count tonight though. Hopefully only till about 2am as am doing ballot box security or some such nonsense. Hopefully won't get roped into the count as well this time.


Are you packing heat to protect Democracy?


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Reds now winning by a landslide (2-0).


Red Wall still standing (4-0).


----------



## shifting gears (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Here's the current odds. I don't know enough about gambling to make sense of them
> 
> UK General Election Betting Odds | Politics | Oddschecker



Far better off checking the betting exchanges for live markets with no bookie margin, this is current (last 5 mins)

Vermin majority: 71% chance (1.4 odds)
No overall majority: 27% chance (3.7 odds)
Lab majority: 1.81% chance (55.0 odds)

Vermin majority went out to 1.6ish (62.5% chance) earlier, no overall majority came in to 2.86 (34%) chance 2/3 hours ago, that’s as rosy as it looked all day when I checked 

Betting markets can move like fuck during elections but it’s another valid reference point


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

Just returned from knocking up in Vale of Glamorgan. I was in Barry. Well, if we fail to unseat Cairns it won't be for lack of effort, there was a massive ground operation out there today. The Labour w/c vote in Barry was turning out and holding up. It's down to what was happening in the posher bits of the constituency.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Just returned from knocking up in Vale of Glamorgan. I was in Barry. Well, if we fail to unseat Cairns it won't be for lack of effort, there was a massive ground operation out there today. The Labour w/c vote in Barry was turning out and holding up. It's down to what was happening in the posher bits of the constituency.


Did you get the impression the w/c voters were voting Labour?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Here's the current odds. I don't know enough about gambling to make sense of them
> 
> UK General Election Betting Odds | Politics | Oddschecker


Just tried to stick a tenner on a labour minority at 8-1 on paddy power as per above link, fuckers are saying my account is suspended - only time I've ever used paddy power was last GE when I took them for a few hundred, not exactly a high roller, cunts


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just tried to stick a tenner on a labour minority at 8-1 on paddy power as per above link, fuckers are saying my account is suspended - only time I've ever used paddy power was last GE when I took them for a few hundred, not exactly a high roller, cunts


Since then all online bookies have get photo ID and proof of address off punters. Mine was suspended until I'd spent 90 mins in a live chat to prove I was me and collect my £53 Grand National winnings


----------



## shifting gears (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just tried to stick a tenner on a labour minority at 8-1 on paddy power as per above link, fuckers are saying my account is suspended - only time I've ever used paddy power was last GE when I took them for a few hundred, not exactly a high roller, cunts



Betfair exchange odds is 11.0 (10/1)


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 12, 2019)

I put £15 on lab majority yesterday 20/1 , wasn't confident, however if johnson loses his seat , it was well worth it


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just tried to stick a tenner on a labour minority at 8-1 on paddy power as per above link, fuckers are saying my account is suspended - only time I've ever used paddy power was last GE when I took them for a few hundred, not exactly a high roller, cunts



Anyone who hadn't sent them a photocopy of their passport by May had their account suspended IIRC


----------



## Sweet FA (Dec 12, 2019)

Drove past Soton Itchen about 10 minutes ago & the queue still outside and round the building. Pissing down too.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Did you get the impression the w/c voters were voting Labour?



Tricky to be entirely objective as we were only knocking up previous Labour or undecided, but on some roads, that was everyone, and yeah, there was some grumbling about Brexit but mostly people were seeing beyond that alone. The previous Labour voters were staying Labour.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Dec 12, 2019)

Plus there were a couple of streets where everyone who is registered to vote on those streets did!


----------



## Hollis (Dec 12, 2019)

I have a strange feeling of hubris, similar to that just before the referendum result..


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

18 minutes to go and I’m on a train.  Will still be on it when the exit poll hits.  Keep me entertained, you fuckers


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

Who was it had that bet with me that (they said) the LDs would get a better % than Lab? £10 to the server fund. 

Have you paid up yet?


----------



## magneze (Dec 12, 2019)

My fingernails are already gone.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

So what’s going on here then?


----------



## a_chap (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

kabbes said:


> So what’s going on here then?
> 
> View attachment 192808


What even is that


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 12, 2019)

kabbes said:


> So what’s going on here then?
> 
> View attachment 192808


 
It goes down and then goes back up again.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> What even is that


Value of Sterling today.  It steadily fell then suddenly surged at 8pm


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

15 minutes to the exit polls.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

Exit poll in 15 mins. Followed by 7 hours of kidding yourself it is wrong before you realise it was right after all about 4.30am


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

kabbes said:


> So what’s going on here then?
> 
> View attachment 192808



At around half past seven someone leaked an exit poll result.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

The exit poll has been incredibly reliable for the last two elections so I’m assuming it’s accurate this time


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> At around half past seven someone leaked an exit poll result.


Trufax or FAKE NEWS?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Since then all online bookies have get photo ID and proof of address off punters. Mine was suspended until I'd spent 90 mins in a live chat to prove I was me and collect my £53 Grand National winnings


Ah this explains it, I thought it was a bit miserable for taking a couple of hundred


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Who was it had that bet with me that (they said) the LDs would get a better % than Lab? £10 to the server fund.
> 
> Have you paid up yet?


My memory is a bit vague on that one...


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

kabbes said:


> The exit poll has been incredibly reliable for the last two elections so I’m assuming it’s accurate this time



I read somewhere earlier the beeb is going to stick it's neck out and predict every seat on it's website.


Yep guardian says..

For the first time there are plans to make constituency-level exit poll projections available on the BBC website from shortly after 10pm, with seats called for each party on a ‘likely’, ‘possible’, or ‘too close to call’ basis. This could enliven the first hour of coverage by giving a local dimension to the headline exit poll figures.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Here's the current odds. I don't know enough about gambling to make sense of them
> 
> UK General Election Betting Odds | Politics | Oddschecker


It's very, very bad.


----------



## elbows (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

This who can count the fastest malarky is weird.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

kabbes said:


> So what’s going on here then?
> 
> View attachment 192808



That shit is all run by algorithms these days. They don't know anything we don't.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> This who can count the fastest malarky is weird.


Bunch of twats


----------



## a_chap (Dec 12, 2019)

Right. Watching the BBC coverage now.



Fingers crossed.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm watching the politics on the telly.  Fingers-crossed for JC!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

How many times can they explain that an exit poll is not an election result? Fuck's sake


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

If nobody is allowed to know a poll prior to 10pm, how do they produce the exit poll ready for 10pm?


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 12, 2019)

Very sombre outfit on Huw - should we update the "Has the queen died" thread?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

I hate this bit.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

Tory whitewash


----------



## agricola (Dec 12, 2019)

368-191

fuck


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Cunt


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

cunts


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

Oh shit


----------



## magneze (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucked


----------



## gawkrodger (Dec 12, 2019)

Fuck.

Exit polls are dire


----------



## wtfftw (Dec 12, 2019)

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

No surprise


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 12, 2019)

They started banging on about 326 seats to win already.  It isn't 326.  Sein Fein don't take their seats - It's 650- SF seats divided by two.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2019)

disaster...


----------



## kebabking (Dec 12, 2019)

The exit poll says Tory on 368 and Lab on 191.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

Shit the bed.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

Fuck sake.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 12, 2019)

Christ


----------



## shifting gears (Dec 12, 2019)

We’re fucked. Betting says Vermin Majority 95% chance

Going to bed, hopefully die in my sleep


----------



## MrSki (Dec 12, 2019)

Bollocks.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Size of that majority, did not expect that, fucking hell


----------



## Supine (Dec 12, 2019)

Ouch


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 12, 2019)

Let’s hope that exit poll is crack head


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

Seriously how shit do the tories have to be to lose?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 12, 2019)

Poop


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 12, 2019)

shiit.  fuck.  May as well go to bed.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

That's not what I wanted to see.


----------



## a_chap (Dec 12, 2019)

WTF???


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

Jesus.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm going to go hide in my fridge.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucking jesus christ. Midlands and North must have gone completely Tory.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2019)

SNP on 55

LD on 13, lol


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

Five years of really hoping you don't need any medical care coming up.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

I don't get it


----------



## aqua (Dec 12, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> shiit.  fuck.  May as well go to bed.


This. I'm not staying up to be so fucking depressed.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 12, 2019)

Better get used to striking because eff all is going to happen any other way if this is correct.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

I wish I'd got more wine now.


----------



## sojourner (Dec 12, 2019)

Think I'm gonna be sick


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

I was a pessimist, but that's really horrendous.


----------



## kazza007 (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucking hell. Who'll replace corbyn


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

We're fucked.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 12, 2019)

Right I'm going to bed already.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 12, 2019)

cuntholes


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We're fucked.


That was the exact thought going through my head.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 12, 2019)

oh fuck


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 12, 2019)

Yeah, fuck this


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 12, 2019)

Second referendum.


----------



## mack (Dec 12, 2019)

God dammit - just necked an espresso - how am i gonna sleep now?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

When were the exit polls released at this time last badly wrong?


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 12, 2019)

If that is right it's as hard a Brexit as he likes.  And as hard a far right govt as he wants.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

YEAH FUNNY THAT LAURA.

ETA and breath.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I don't get it



I do, but I despair.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucking hell. Shit.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucksticks.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm building up an unhealthy dislike of any cunt that votes Tory. It's like a big fuck you to the NHS, the environment, the needy, foreigners and anyone on low incomes.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

kabbes said:


> View attachment 192813


Obscene.


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 12, 2019)

No point staying up for this shitshow. A few strong drinks and hopefully oblivion.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Second referendum.


Oh do shut up


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

Riot.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> When were the exit polls released at this time last badly wrong?


Last time exit poll failed to call largest party correctly was 92 I think, no way they will be out by 86 seats


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

Good job I already have my Christmas wine stash in the house.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 12, 2019)

FFS


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

emanymton said:


> Right I'm going to bed already.



^
Yeah same as


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Good job I already have my Christmas wine stash in the house.


I've got wine but no corkscrew.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

If the SNP are up to 55, I’m guessing Swinson has lost her seat.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Dec 12, 2019)

Devastating.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

Well I'm sure this brexit thing everyone's decided to fuck the country to death for is gonna turn out to be everything we all dreamed of and more.


----------



## SovietArmy (Dec 12, 2019)

if is correct emigrate to Europe.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Good job I already have my Christmas wine stash in the house.



I've got nearly twenty bottles for the xmas period, but the nearest off licence is closed


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 12, 2019)

This must be what it feels like in Russia if you don’t like Putin.


----------



## SovietArmy (Dec 12, 2019)

I confuse are their already counted ballot papers?


----------



## crossthebreeze (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucking Hell. I expected a Tory win but not this.


----------



## Dovydaitis (Dec 12, 2019)

kabbes said:


> If the SNP are up to 55, I’m guessing Swinson has lost her seat.


A small victory if so


----------



## oryx (Dec 12, 2019)

My partner has just said 'People in this country must be fucking mad' which just about sums it up.

Hideous, gloating, condescending Priti Patel on now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Last time exit poll failed to call largest party correctly was 92 I think, no way they will be out by 86 seats


Let's hope ids and johnson are kicked out


----------



## crossthebreeze (Dec 12, 2019)

SovietArmy said:


> I confuse are their already counted ballot papers?


Its an exit poll - no actual results yet.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

SovietArmy said:


> I confuse are their already counted ballot papers?


They ask people outside polling stations, it's called an exit poll. It's usually reasonably reliable I think.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 12, 2019)

Off the telly goes - I'm not watching this cunt


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

Great, Priti Patel.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

oryx said:


> My partner has just said 'People in this country must be fucking mad' which just about sums it up.



My partner is telling me the political climate in this country is fucked beyond repair.

And she's from Russia.


----------



## prunus (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucking fuck every fucking one. Which is now what is going to happen, so hooray. Fucking fuckers have fucked it all.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

My celebrity death list will be full of tories.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 12, 2019)

Priti Patel looks like she’s about to burst out laughing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Good job I already have my Christmas wine stash in the house.


I'm fucking tempted to nip down the offie and get a bottle of whiskey


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 12, 2019)

Gin and despair, I think. The old familiar.

Gutted.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 12, 2019)

oryx said:


> My partner has just said 'People in this country must be fucking mad' which just about sums it up.
> 
> Hideous, gloating, condescending Priti Patel on now.


Watching the BBC coverage on the internet, it must be a minute behind the telly.


----------



## Ole (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm gonna book myself a vasectomy tomorrow and beat the rush.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm fucking tempted to nip down the offie and get a bottle of whiskey



I'm regretting my initially very modest level of purchase.


----------



## Ole (Dec 12, 2019)

Just a memory now.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Britain can fuck off right now tbh.

I don't want to live anywhere in this shit hole.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 12, 2019)

Now we will see what kind of Brexit Boris really wants, because he no longer needs to walk a tightrope to keep rebels happy.  Harder Brexit coming, no doubt.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

It really has been about nothing but Brexit. And once that's rammed through these cunts can get on with selling everything they can steal, still blame all problems on Labour because they're better at lying and down we spiral


----------



## kazza007 (Dec 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Priti Patel looks like she’s about to burst out laughing.


And Laura cuntsberg


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 12, 2019)

Who was taking the exit polls? I thought they were compiled roughly by people on their way out.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Dec 12, 2019)

Flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2019)

Extraordinary that the pound can spike due to the election of an avowed Brexiter, when it was Brexit that made the pound plunge in the first place


----------



## SovietArmy (Dec 12, 2019)

Shit my stomach  are shaking now bastards fascist in power.


----------



## elbows (Dec 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Priti Patel looks like she’s about to burst out laughing.



She usually looks like that, eg:

BBC apology after Marr accuses Patel of 'laughing'



> The BBC has apologised after Andrew Marr accused Priti Patel of laughing during an interview about Brexit.
> 
> While discussing the subject with the home secretary on his Sunday morning politics show on 13 October, Marr said: "I can't see why you're laughing."
> 
> ...


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm building up an unhealthy dislike of any cunt that votes Tory. It's like a big fuck you to the NHS, the environment, the needy, foreigners and anyone on low incomes.


Same here. It’s the fucking dickheads who vote for them who give them the mandate. And do you know what? When their access to free health care stops and they get bankrupted by medical bills do you know who they’ll blame? The EU and immigration. The Murdoch press’ll make sure of that. No wonder De Pfeffel and his band of psychopaths have contempt for the people who vote them in. They ARE idiots.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Helped into power is the only sentence in my head. Fucking facist shithole.


----------



## tommers (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucking. Pricks.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Back to the 80s.

This time no strikes, no major organisations to rally around.

We're a shit country again. Tory's going to sell off everything and then make us pay for the privilege.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 12, 2019)

Despising for you, the city, thus I turn my back: there is a world elsewhere.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

Uruguay looks like a good place right now. Far from this shithole and its shit.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

McDonnell looks devastated.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 12, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> You really a totally dishonest twat. Are you now going to claim not not be in favour of austerity
> No to "Tory austerity", yes to "New Labour austerity".


Digging through my old posts now, fucking hell.

I probably contradicted myself five years ago too.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Oh fuck, fuck, fuck. I think I predicted a 65 majority, knowing how bad I'd feel if they got it. But this...

I don't exactly give a fuck about the finer traditions of representative democracy, Wesminster etc - more worried about universal credit, poverty and the NHS. But that majority means they can do just what they fucking want in terms of parliament and all it's procedures. 

Fucking hell, this isn't just the end point of Brexit, it's the final destination of neoliberalism. Oh, shit.


----------



## Anju (Dec 12, 2019)

Britain, more of a cuntry than a country.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 12, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Now we will see what kind of Brexit Boris really wants, because he no longer needs to walk a tightrope to keep rebels happy.  Harder Brexit coming, no doubt.



Or could go the other way, they used to be a pragmatic party serving the needs of business, and plenty of those don’t want a fuckabout hard Brexit, might act for them and ignore the headcases.


----------



## Cid (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> When were the exit polls released at this time last badly wrong?



1992...


----------



## Voley (Dec 12, 2019)

Jesus.


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2019)

The other option is to stay here and fight of course. Any way you can.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

.


----------



## SovietArmy (Dec 12, 2019)

Unite people and go on street demonstrate is not that priti life anymore


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

Wake up and stop living in hope (this isn't getting me any brownie points with my partner but...). How is this a surprise to people? We live in a right wing country. Tories have governed for about 75% of the last 100 years. How did anyone following the news and the biased news reporting of the last few weeks expect anything different? All it shows is that parliamentary democracy is a ball of shite. Everything we have gained has only ever come from extra-parliamentary activity, scaring our leaders into giving us crumbs.

Go out, mobilise in trade unions or whatever non-parliamentary group you can find. 

Wake up. And riot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

Usual drill. Don't be too disheartened. Very little is won at a ballot box on its own. Resistance can only be built by us and we don't need to defer power to political parties that have continually screwed us over.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> McDonnell looks devastated.



Very downbeat, wasn't he?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> I'm regretting my initially very modest level of purchase.


I am fortunate to have a well-stocked 24 hour offie within easy walking distance


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

I mean I say don't be disheartened as someone that was certain this would happen, but I'm still gutted.


----------



## Supine (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> McDonnell looks devastated.



He just discovered corbynism wasn't a winner.


----------



## Ole (Dec 12, 2019)

This country... fucking fucked.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> They ask people outside polling stations, it's called an exit poll. It's usually reasonably reliable I think.


The only people outside the polling stations I saw asking were Tories and as a labour supporter I don't talk to Tories. . . .this is the only hope I have for the result. 
I really don't get it. 
Boris has outright lied and dodged interviews, behaved terribly, and wants things done to this country that will be absolutely devastating. They have been fucking everyone for ten years, but still we get this. Its astonishing. It can only be the media coverage (which I barely see or read).


----------



## Humberto (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I am fortunate to have a well-stocked 24 hour offie within easy walking distance




I know we don't see eye to eye and have cunted eachother off but mind how you go.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Maybe not the thread for it but this big a loss, mass loss of support in historically labour voting areas that voted leave, labour's fucked it on its brexit position


----------



## eoin_k (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I am fortunate to have a well-stocked 24 hour offie within easy walking distance



Stay on the wagon. I'll drown your sorrows for you.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

what a toilet this country has turned into. Ah well.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's hope ids and johnson are kicked out


They’re not going to be, are they?


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

The fucking horror of this is whether Labour get these seats back anytime soon. They'll certainly need to mobilise and organise in those northern seats, things they've not been keen on doing for a while.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> The only people outside the polling stations I saw asking were Tories and as a labour supporter I don't talk to Tories. . . .this is the only hope I have for the result.
> I really don't get it.
> Boris has outright lied and dodged interviews, behaved terribly, and wants things done to this country that will be absolutely devastating. They have been fucking everyone for ten years, but still we get this. Its astonishing. It can only be the media coverage (which I barely see or read).


I think something really interesting has happened around social media, echo chambers and media bias, but maybe it really is just Brexit.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 12, 2019)

Dawn Butler on ITN looks utterly, utterly shattered.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2019)

Britain Elects are saying the exit poll includes 65 seats classified as "too close to call".


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> The only people outside the polling stations I saw asking were Tories and as a labour supporter I don't talk to Tories. . . .this is the only hope I have for the result.


The exit poll is conducted by a polling company, not party supporters, at a selected sample number of polling stations.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 12, 2019)

So, Corbyn's a gonna, obviously - Swinson too, maybe? Will Farage finally give up?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> They’re not going to be, are they?




We can only hope.


----------



## tommers (Dec 12, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> The only people outside the polling stations I saw asking were Tories and as a labour supporter I don't talk to Tories. . . .this is the only hope I have for the result.
> I really don't get it.
> Boris has outright lied and dodged interviews, behaved terribly, and wants things done to this country that will be absolutely devastating. They have been fucking everyone for ten years, but still we get this. Its astonishing. It can only be the media coverage (which I barely see or read).


People are cunts. That's the key to it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Maybe not the thread for it but this big a loss, mass loss of support in historically labour voting areas that voted leave, labour's fucked it on its brexit position



If it had taken the Leave position the Party would have split in two. But you also have to listen to the word on the door and that was about Corbyn.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 12, 2019)

Under the exit poll, Sedgefield (ex-Tony Blair), Hartlepool (ex-Peter Mandleson) and Bolsover (Dennis Skinner) all fall Tory.


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)

I must live in such an echo chamber.


----------



## elbows (Dec 12, 2019)

Buddy Bradley said:


> So, Corbyn's a gonna, obviously - Swinson too, maybe? Will Farage finally give up?



Farage was already floating his 'Reform Party' ideas for the post-Brexit picture before this election campaign was even over.


----------



## prunus (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The exit poll is conducted by a polling company, not party supporters, at a selected sample number of polling stations.



The same ones each time, so they can compare and track changes. It’s usually pretty accurate. Fuck it.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 12, 2019)

if it gone that way let the country be


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

wiskey said:


> I must live in such an echo chamber.




Did you think was hope of Labour winning?


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 12, 2019)

elbows said:


> Farage was already floating his 'Reform Party' ideas for the post-Brexit picture before this election campaign was even over.


I know, but it's even more clear now that nobody is interested.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Maybe not the thread for it but this big a loss, mass loss of support in Historically labour voting areas that voted leave, labour's fucked it on its brexit position



likely Conservative gains: Workington, Bishop Auckland, Dudley North, Halifax, Wakefield, Don Valley. Two courses of avtion:blame the voters which many will do or ask why? The answer to the last is a heady mix but the failure of the left to support Brexit will be a large part of it.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 12, 2019)

Poor old Jez if this is true.  I went from thinking of him as ineffective to probably the most 'decent' and 'natural' party leader.  He'd make a great neighbour.. be round with a few marrows and tomatoes if he had a glut.  The British public would rather vote for a cunt who runs from interviews and hides in a fridge.


----------



## blameless77 (Dec 12, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Or could go the other way, they used to be a pragmatic party serving the needs of business, and plenty of those don’t want a fuckabout hard Brexit, might act for them and ignore the headcases.



So...the worst kind of brexit , everything sold off and Britain becoming nastier and smaller by the day


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

No sign of Corbyn - he'll be in a fridge


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Did you think was hope of Labour winning?



No, I'm not an idiot. But maybe I thought they'd do better than the exit poll predicts.

I dunno, I think maybe I'm too invested because things are so fucking shit here that I honestly don't know how much further we can be pushed by austerity.


----------



## magneze (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Maybe not the thread for it but this big a loss, mass loss of support in historically labour voting areas that voted leave, labour's fucked it on its brexit position


Yep, I think you're right.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 12, 2019)

Fuck me, the gloating from Marr and Robinson is sickening.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Not sure why I want to look, but wasn't there talk of the bbc giving constituency predictions on the basis of the exit poll? Can't find it, maybe they are doing it in combination with some of the early results.  Fuck, even Sunderland could be dodgy at this rate.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

we love the toffs dont we ? ffs


----------



## mauvais (Dec 12, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> likely Conservative gains: Workington, Bishop Auckland, Dudley North, Halifax, Wakefield, Don Valley. Two courses of avtion:blame the voters which many will do or ask why? The answer to the last is a heady mix but the failure of the left to support Brexit will be a large part of it.


Oh stop this mince. What should the left have done? Been less left? Died?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> They’re not going to be, are they?


Let's wait and see


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Was sure I'd bought wine but I did not. FML


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 12, 2019)

This little prick New Labour fucker on ITV can fuck off.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

Shall I push the cork into the wine?


----------



## ferrelhadley (Dec 12, 2019)

Turns out student politics was not the missing ingredient for UK wide elections.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Mr Moose said:


> If it had taken the Leave position the Party would have split in two. But you also have to listen to the word on the door and that was about Corbyn.


Or look at where labour looks like it's done well and where it hasn't


----------



## The Boy (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> Shall I push the cork into the wine?



Put the bottle into a shoe, base first. Bash the shoe against a wall. The cork will nudge out with the pressure.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

Cameron was, with hindsight, a massive success for the Tories. He sparked a culture war that has been tremendously successful for them.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

wiskey said:


> No, I'm not an idiot. But maybe I thought they'd do better than the exit poll predicts.
> 
> I dunno, I think maybe I'm too invested because things are so fucking shit here that I honestly don't know how much further we can be pushed by austerity.




Apologies. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were “an idiot”. I just didn’t know what you meant. I should have just said “what do you mean?” Or just not posted at all. 

I’ll shut up now. Sorry.


----------



## ffsear (Dec 12, 2019)

Easy money


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The exit poll is conducted by a polling company, not party supporters, at a selected sample number of polling stations.


Oh.
Bum.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Apologies. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were “an idiot”. I just didn’t know what you meant. I should have just said “what do you mean?” Or just not posted at all.
> 
> I’ll shut up now. Sorry.


I'd convinced myself Labour could do it.


----------



## oryx (Dec 12, 2019)

O H is weighing up whether we should relocate to Scotland or Cuba.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Despise Kuessenberg. She's delighted


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> No sign of Corbyn - he'll be in a fridge



No, he won't, because he's not a cunt.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

Let’s get this wake started


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> we love the toffs dont we ? ffs



We just hate the forrins.

A relentless 40 year smear campaign against the EU decided this election.

Corbyn had no good options to break for leave or remain and had not enough airtime or ability to sell neutrality. The second ref line was also a mistake because the voters are treating this like one and so was bojo.


----------



## A380 (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> Shall I push the cork into the wine?



Take a shoe, stick the fat end of the bottle inside the shoe up against the heel, and firmly bang the heel a few times up against something solid. The cork will slowly work its way out. Sounds daft, but it actually works.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

Will this mean a resurgence of New Labour? 


Urrrgh


----------



## kazza007 (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Despise Kuessenberg. She's delighted


Needs a firm slap


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The exit poll is conducted by a polling company, not party supporters, at a selected sample number of polling stations.


144 polling stations I've seen mentioned.
I think the exit poll will be wrong by some margin. But working majority is there for sure


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Er no


----------



## circleline (Dec 12, 2019)

Gutted.

Punished again for another thousand fucking years.

Proper grief


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Could well be more Labour seats in the south than the north after this.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

kazza007 said:


> Needs a firm slap



Er no


----------



## binka (Dec 12, 2019)

So how shit is everything going to be after five years of this lot doing whatever they want?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> 144 polling stations I've seen mentioned.



The figure I saw, and about 50,000 interviewees.


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Apologies. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were “an idiot”. I just didn’t know what you meant. I should have just said “what do you mean?” Or just not posted at all.
> 
> I’ll shut up now. Sorry.


Sorry. I've just spent the last 40 minutes crying... Which is a bit of an issue as we've no loo roll because we had to pay the rent. 

I may be taking this a bit personally.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> I think something really interesting has happened around social media, echo chambers and media bias, but maybe it really is just Brexit.


Both


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

Pound’s gone up sharply for some reason. Considering we’re going to get a hard Brexit i don’t know why that is. I thought short positions on GBP would kick in and drop it sharply with this result.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 12, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Will this mean a resurgence of New Labour?
> 
> 
> Urrrgh




David Moyes?


----------



## magneze (Dec 12, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Will this mean a resurgence of New Labour?
> 
> 
> Urrrgh


Can't see that considering the membership now.


----------



## not a trot (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm building up an unhealthy dislike of any cunt that votes Tory. It's like a big fuck you to the NHS, the environment, the needy, foreigners and anyone on low incomes.



Yeah and it's gonna turn out that many who will suffer actually voted for this shit.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Despise Kuessenberg. She's delighted


I'm sure she'll be rewarded handsomely.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Ming said:


> Pound’s gone up sharply for some reason. Considering we’re going to get a hard Brexit i don’t know why that is. I thought short positions on GBP would kick in and drop it sharply with this result.



They are betting Johnson won't go full hard Brexit with a majority.


----------



## Looby (Dec 12, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Sorry. I've just spent the last 40 minutes crying... Which is a bit of an issue as we've no loo roll because we had to pay the rent.
> 
> I may be taking this a bit personally.



[emoji20] Mr Looby has been completely silent since 10, he just won’t talk. 

Devastated.


----------



## alsoknownas (Dec 12, 2019)

Reckon Ruth Davidson will be a little nervous looking at the Exit Poll.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

magneze said:


> Can't see that considering the membership now.



Hopefully not - also presumably depends on the makeup of the MPs left though.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Sorry. I've just spent the last 40 minutes crying... Which is a bit of an issue as we've no loo roll because we had to pay the rent.
> 
> I may be taking this a bit personally.


((wiskey )) and SheilaNaGig , I'm trying not to cry but I know it's inevitable. Fuck this fucking shit x


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Sorry. I've just spent the last 40 minutes crying... Which is a bit of an issue as we've no loo roll because we had to pay the rent.
> 
> I may be taking this a bit personally.




I’m crying too. I’ve got bog roll, but no one to cry with. Trying to decide whether to drink alone or try to go to sleep.  I’m also utterly fucked financially, with ongoing health is issues.


----------



## Funky_monks (Dec 12, 2019)

Shocking.

I'm normally surrounded by Tory types (work in Ag), but the consensus seemed to be that even they couldn't vote Tory under Boris.


----------



## not a trot (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's hope ids and johnson are kicked out



Johnsons job was to deliver a hard Brexit. The lazy cunt won't want to serve 5 years, he's delivered and will hand the job to some other cunt.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Thank god I don't see anyone's Facebook posts.

I expect most of them believe that voting is the beginning bit of politics, not the end. Can't do anything now for five years


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)

Looby said:


> [emoji20] Mr Looby has been completely silent since 10, he just won’t talk.
> 
> Devastated.


Give him a hug from me. 

I feel I've failed my children so badly.


----------



## magneze (Dec 12, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Hopefully not - also presumably depends on the makeup of the MPs left though.


Yep, the choice could be all right wingers I suppose.


----------



## Cid (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> 144 polling stations I've seen mentioned.
> I think the exit poll will be wrong by some margin. But working majority is there for sure



It won't, they're pretty accurate these days.

e2a: they chose 144 seats where the results might be close, get people coming out to fill a separate ballot so it's anonymous iirc.


----------



## Sputwang (Dec 12, 2019)

Time to apply for that Irish passport I think.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m crying too. I’ve got bog roll, but no one to cry with. Trying to decide whether to drink alone or try to go to sleep.  I’m also utterly fucked financially, with ongoing health is issues.


I'm going to drink alone, clinks glasses x


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 12, 2019)

alsoknownas said:


> Reckon Ruth Davidson will be a little nervous looking at the Exit Poll.


It's actually Nessie that's nervous.


----------



## donkyboy (Dec 12, 2019)

A Tory majority over 86... We are well and truly screwed.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

Shitting it waiting for Sunderland vote


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> They are betting Johnson won't go full hard Brexit with a majority.


I would have thought the opposite. He’s a got a strong mandate to do what he wants now. I hope I’m wrong don’t get me wrong. The thing I’m most worried about is a ‘trade deal’ (asset stripping) with Trumps US. NHS is definitely on the table. The thing is you never know what these hedge funds have access to informationally.
Like this example.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2019)

exit poll still suggesting a few surprises/positives, eg poss lab gain from tory in putney and swinson losing her seat


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 12, 2019)

As to the five years; the Tory manifesto vows to scrap FTPA. We'll see.


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m crying too. I’ve got bog roll, but no one to cry with. Trying to decide whether to drink alone or try to go to sleep.  I’m also utterly fucked financially, with ongoing health is issues.



I'd kill for a spliff. Or even a fag. 

Big hugs to you. 

I'm not a drinker, I'm looking at the very dusty alcohol shelf but I've got to do the school run in the morning.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

I'll talk about wales because I know it. Looks like labour has held cardiff north - north cardiff being a mixed bag but overall quite posh & leafy, flip flopped between tories and labour at westminster and senedd for a long time, gain in '17 - but losing every seat north of the valleys, seats there that have never been tory. Valleys will remain solid labour but on welsh coverage talking about tory surge in places like Bridgend, not enough but gaining ground.

Will see what happens but if the likely becomes the definite then this tells its own story. Not that they'll listen, welsh pundits already banging on about how it is down to UK labour ignoring (remain, middle class, fucking useless) welsh labour, corbyn, not clearly backing remain, how it's because people on twitter told them to fuck off and join the tories. Pricks.


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> I'm going to drink alone, clinks glasses x


Me too.


----------



## Looby (Dec 12, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Give him a hug from me.
> 
> I feel I've failed my children so badly.



Oh mate, that’s so far from the truth.xx 
This is spectacularly shit and I really don’t know what or who the answer is. I really felt like the message had got across just a bit, just maybe enough to keep the Tories back. 

Fucksake.


----------



## Cid (Dec 12, 2019)

AnnaKarpik said:


> As to the five years; the Tory manifesto vows to scrap FTPA. We'll see.



Well they're not likely to call an early GE with a majority of 86.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m crying too. I’ve got bog roll, but no one to cry with. Trying to decide whether to drink alone or try to go to sleep.  I’m also utterly fucked financially, with ongoing health is issues.


Ah much love Sheila. Sleep and see afresh tomorrow.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 12, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Shitting it waiting for Sunderland vote



Wonder if Sunderland are first to declare?

Think last time Newcastle beat them to it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Ming said:


> I would have thought the opposite. He’s a got a strong mandate to do what he wants now. I hope I’m wrong don’t get me wrong. The thing I’m most worried about is a ‘trade deal’ (asset stripping) with Trumps US. NHS is definitely on the table. The thing is you never know what these hedge funds have access to informationally.
> Like this example.




Johnson's secure for 5 years and has no fucking morals, plenty reckon he'll not go through with a hard Brexit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

I suppose the best we can hope for now, is that Swinton loses her seat.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 12, 2019)

Dillinger4 said:


> Flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo.


Shamelessly lifted.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Squeaky bum time for Caroline Flint, it was only the split in the vote to Tories and UKIP that saved her last time.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

Ming said:


> Me too.


Chin chin Ming . 
Stomach may not keep it down, but I'm gonna give it a good go.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Shitting it waiting for Sunderland vote



it will go tory. I know, sunderland going blue. ffs


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 12, 2019)

a_chap said:


> View attachment 192812
> 
> WTF???



I feel sick.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> 144 polling stations I've seen mentioned.
> I think the exit poll will be wrong by some margin. But working majority is there for sure


I agree. I don't see how it can be this wrong.

Nothing has predicted 86 majority. 

Possibly denial, but I'm just not having it.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 12, 2019)

bbc exit poll seat prediction tool here:

Check the exit poll forecast for your area

enter your postcode.

says my seat coventry south likely to stay labour but coventry north west has 64% chance of going tory 

definetly not staying up for this one.


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Johnson's secure for 5 years and has no fucking morals, plenty reckon he'll not go through with a hard Brexit.


What benefit is it to him to not go through with the hardest of hard Brexits? It won’t affect him and he’ll please his financial backers. Like you say. No morals.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

Ming said:


> I would have thought the opposite. He’s a got a strong mandate to do what he wants now. I hope I’m wrong don’t get me wrong. The thing I’m most worried about is a ‘trade deal’ (asset stripping) with Trumps US. NHS is definitely on the table. The thing is you never know what these hedge funds have access to informationally.
> Like this example.




I'm concerned that any deals he does selling stuff to the US etc will be irreversible because any attempt to reverse them will leave us open to being sued in WTO? court for loss of profit by the companies involved.


----------



## Red Cat (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m crying too. I’ve got bog roll, but no one to cry with. Trying to decide whether to drink alone or try to go to sleep.  I’m also utterly fucked financially, with ongoing health is issues.



Go to sleep x


----------



## 8ball (Dec 12, 2019)

That would be Crowdfunder for the next heart surgery, then.


----------



## a_chap (Dec 12, 2019)

I just got back from walking Lily in the pouring rain (seems appropriate for my mood) and I just kept muttering to myself "Fucking hell... _*fucking*_ HELL..."

*Edited to add:* and I just turned on the TV to see Farage. Could it get ANY WORSE????


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 12, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Oh stop this mince. What should the left have done? Been less left? Died?


They should have listened to their voters who voted leave and got totally ignored.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

Isn't John Curtice normally on around 11pm, with his predictions based on the exit polls?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> it will go tory. I know, sunderland going blue. ffs


I'm waiting for that, then it will sink in how fucked we are.


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Chin chin Ming .
> Stomach may not keep it down, but I'm gonna give it a good go.


Chin chin dear.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2019)

Love and solidarity to all. 
Stay strong brothers and sisters.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

Well at least we can say goodbye to anti-semitism.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

Until the next election.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Ming said:


> What benefit is it to him to not go through with the hardest of hard Brexits? It won’t affect him and he’ll please his financial backers. Like you say. No morals.




The economy doesn't collapse and business pays him off for "stability"


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

two sheds said:


> I'm concerned that any deals he does selling stuff to the US etc will be irreversible because any attempt to reverse them will leave us open to being sued in WTO? court for loss of profit by the companies involved.


Of course. I remember why people were opposing NAFTA and WTO back in the day over this very thing.


----------



## Anju (Dec 12, 2019)

Bollocks, just ordered some drugs so I can stay up until Johnson's smug face appears on the TV and see what happens when you throw 12 darts at a screen.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

We've been Trumped. It's not democracy by any means now. Time to riot!


----------



## Johnny Doe (Dec 12, 2019)

. Can't be arsed. Night


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 12, 2019)

Doncaster Central being touted as too close to call on BBC website.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

Harry Smiles said:


> So proof the majority of voters are entirely self-serving, or thick as pigshit.



Not even self-serving. Trying to be self-serving and getting it wrong.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Harry Smiles said:


> So proof the majority of voters are entirely self-serving, or thick as pigshit.


I know tempers are high but if you're going to rely on electoral politics to deliver change then this relies on appealing to voters. Also self serving, politics should be driven by self interest, what the post mortem should be is why so many, particularly working class people, saw their interests better served by fucking tories


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## kebabking (Dec 12, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Until the next election.



Nah, you'll not find pictures of Rebecca Long-Bailey with people from Hamas.

The anti-Semitism thing was Corbyn focused, it's shit on his shoes - and those of his Ilk and to some extent, his generation.


----------



## telbert (Dec 12, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> We've been Trumped. It's not democracy by any means now. Time to riot!


Put the drugs away. It's not helping..


----------



## B.I.G (Dec 12, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> They should have listened to their voters who voted leave and got totally ignored.



Listened to their racist northerners. Makes sense.


----------



## SE25 (Dec 12, 2019)

I hate this fkn country. No hope for it at all.


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> The economy doesn't collapse and business pays him off for "stability"


Thing is there’s money to made from economic catastrophe. Old school ‘build shit’ type capitalism would be against it, new style speculator vulture/disaster capitalism loves this stuff to bits. Remember when Soros bet against the pound and made billions forcing the UK out of the ERM (Black Wednesday)? I think the demons behind Brexit are in the later camp.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2019)

One positive (there are more)

Boris is an arsehole and his weaknesses remain to be kicked at. He's bound to fuck up off his own steam too .


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m crying too. I’ve got bog roll, but no one to cry with. Trying to decide whether to drink alone or try to go to sleep.  I’m also utterly fucked financially, with ongoing health is issues.


I'm at the railway. Come along and drink yourself stupid.


----------



## elbows (Dec 12, 2019)

Meanwhile on planet Marr


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Nah, you'll not find pictures of Rebecca Long-Bailey with people from Hamas.
> 
> The anti-Semitism thing was Corbyn focused, it's shit on his shoes - and those of his Ilk and to some extent, his generation.



I dunno, as a big stick they've found that it's worked really well. I think we might find that it's so ingrained in the Labour party that it'll *never* be eradicated.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'll talk about wales because I know it. Looks like labour has held cardiff north - north cardiff being a mixed bag but overall quite posh & leafy, flip flopped between tories and labour at westminster and senedd for a long time, gain in '17 - but losing every seat north of the valleys, seats there that have never been tory. Valleys will remain solid labour but on welsh coverage talking about tory surge in places like Bridgend, not enough but gaining ground.
> 
> Will see what happens but if the likely becomes the definite then this tells its own story. Not that they'll listen, welsh pundits already banging on about how it is down to UK labour ignoring (remain, middle class, fucking useless) welsh labour, corbyn, not clearly backing remain, how it's because people on twitter told them to fuck off and join the tories. Pricks.



Yes, I get the sense that Welsh Labour sees this as a reason to get even worse. Can see a Scotland style wipeout on the horizon. Suspect the Yes Cymru movement is going to have a massive boost, but so will anti devolution movement. I'm genuinely gutted.


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Well at least we can say goodbye to anti-semitism.


Until the next election.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

ska invita said:


> One positive (there are more)
> 
> Boris is an arsehole and his weaknesses remain to be kicked at. He's bound to fuck up off his own steam too .



Can we impeach him already?


----------



## existentialist (Dec 12, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> I'm going to drink alone, clinks glasses x


You're only drinking as alone as me, then, and while I'm on this thread, I'm not drinking alone *clinks glass*


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2019)

elbows said:


> Meanwhile on planet Marr
> 
> View attachment 192823



Gods but that last line is chilling.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

telbert said:


> Put the drugs away. It's not helping..


Not taken any drugs for years but thanks for the slur


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Nah, you'll not find pictures of Rebecca Long-Bailey with people from Hamas.
> 
> The anti-Semitism thing was Corbyn focused, it's shit on his shoes - and those of his Ilk and to some extent, his generation.



Ed Miliband got it, why wouldn't Long Bailey?


----------



## telbert (Dec 12, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Not taken any drugs for years but thanks for the slur


Sorry didn't mean that the way it sounded. Wasnt trying to be nasty.


----------



## SE25 (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Ed Miliband got it, why wouldn't Long Bailey?



when will people get that it doesn't matter what we do, the vermin media will always find something?


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 12, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Doncaster Central being touted as too close to call on BBC website.


Same for Chesterfield. Was 10k lab majority. 

Bolsover is 94% go to Tories.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Yes, I get the sense that Welsh Labour sees this as a reason to get even worse. Can see a Scotland style wipeout on the horizon. Suspect the Yes Cymru movement is going to have a massive boost, but so will anti devolution movement. I'm genuinely gutted.


It's depressing, watching the coverage on BBC1 wales and the shit being talked is just so wide of mark, getting hammered in leave areas = should have been more pro remain, loss of north due to lack of appeal of corbyn and no mention of the burning resentment to how devolution and perpetual welsh labour senedd govts have resulted in north rotting. Utter joke.


----------



## oryx (Dec 12, 2019)

existentialist said:


> You're only drinking as alone as me, then, and while I'm on this thread, I'm not drinking alone *clinks glass*


OH is about to turn in (no doubt to dream of our future in Edinburgh or Havana) so will soon be drinking alone, or not alone while on this thread!


----------



## Hollis (Dec 12, 2019)

Well, Cities of London and Westminster looking like a potential Labour gain....


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Ming said:


> Thing is there’s money to made from economic catastrophe. Old school ‘build shit’ type capitalism would be against it, new style speculator vulture/disaster capitalism loves this stuff to bits. Remember when Soros bet against the pound and made billions forcing the UK out of the ERM (Black Wednesday)? I think the demons behind Brexit are in the later camp.



They are but Boris is happy throwing anyone under a bus.

He's not a particularly strong radical, he prides himself on this centrist Churchill shit. It's not a dead cert but it is improved odds he goes softer Brexit now.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 12, 2019)

oryx said:


> OH is about to turn in (no doubt to dream of our future in Edinburgh or Havana) so will soon be drinking alone, or not alone while on this thread!


I was going to turn in, but I think I want to face tomorrow with at least a bit of a hangover. And there's a bottle of Grouse there that's not going to drink itself. I think I'll fire up the vape, too, while I'm at it.

ETA: so does this make this the Official Urban Election Sorrows-Drowning Thread, or should we be taking that elsewhere?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Gods but that last line is chilling.



Like Sellers' maybe even Boris doesn't know who he is by now...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Oh stop this mince. What should the left have done? Been less left? Died?


You won't find a more left person in the HofC than Dennis Skinner but I'll be very surprised if he keeps his seat, I hope he does. Will he lose it because he's too left wing?No he'll lose it mainly because of Labours position on Brexit and secondly because even before that many w/class voters in his and many areas no longer saw Labour as their party. No amount of good but late economic policies , no amount of election time tweets or facebook ads can make up for the fact they've done f all in many of those communities for decades and whether remainers like it or lump it Labour areas  areas that voted for leave expected Labour nationally to support the referendum result. As I said its a heady mix but to me thats the biggest innluence and prob the tipping point.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

I was supposed to be DJing. If they let me near the decks I'm going to play an explosion of angry smash it up tunes. I've never been so angry or upset over an election and I've been around a long while. Tory cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> I was supposed to be DJing. If they let me near the decks I'm going to play an explosion of angry smash it up tunes. I've never been so angry or upset over an election and I've been around a long while. Tory cunts.


Sure the damned would have gone down well


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

telbert said:


> Sorry didn't mean that the way it sounded. Wasnt trying to be nasty.


Bit of a cunts comment to make then mate. Always thought better of you TBH but yeah emotions are high!

When you hear ordinary folk spouting tabloid media spin about Corbyn you really do have to ask yourself how democratic this country or any western one is now. He's anti Jew, IRA sympathiser, a Russian red... 

US Trump
UK Boris

 Hand me the drugs

Democracy based upon politics is kind of a joke now and I'll stand by my comments but thanks for realising your error.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> Go to sleep x





editor said:


> I'm at the railway. Come along and drink yourself stupid.






Genuinely torn between these options.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's depressing, watching the coverage on BBC1 wales and the shit being talked is just so wide of mark, getting hammered in leave areas = should have been more pro remain, loss of north due to lack of appeal of corbyn and no mention of the burning resentment to how devolution and perpetual welsh labour senedd govts have resulted in north rotting. Utter joke.



There is no left-wing organisation in Wales talking to Leave voters. It's ridiculous, and depressing. I was going well off-piste canvassing by pushing Corbyn's compromise, a lot of the time we were being told to push Remain, or avoid talking about Brexit  Pushing Remain works in Cardiff North and Cardiff Central and ......nowhere else in Wales.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 12, 2019)

Recount in Blyth Sunderland


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

Blyth Valley going to a 'bundled' recount.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Grimsby is going Tory. It's just fucking baffling. The homeless and the mentally broken walk the streets, the shops are all pawnbrokers and vape shacks and people are going hungry. And yet, and yet


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Fucking Cameron. The spineless cunt. This is all his doing. He split the country forever.


----------



## Favelado (Dec 12, 2019)

People refuse to vote in their own interests. I'm so worn down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Genuinely torn between these options.


Go to the railway and drink till you pass out, seems a good compromise


----------



## PursuedByBears (Dec 12, 2019)




----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Fucking Cameron. The spineless cunt. This is all his doing. He split the country forever.



Clearly a master strategist.


----------



## prunus (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Blyth Valley going to a 'bundled' recount.



56% chance of vermin gain, according to exit poll. I guess we get to see how right it is here first.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 12, 2019)

Tory voters are a virus and cancer. Hurry up and die you degenerate vermin.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 12, 2019)

Turnout must have been fucking huge if no one has declared yet


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

I don't like being this full of hate.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> There is no left-wing organisation in Wales talking to Leave voters. It's ridiculous, and depressing. I was going well off-piste canvassing by pushing Corbyn's compromise, a lot of the time we were being told to push Remain, or avoid talking about Brexit  Pushing Remain works in Cardiff North and Cardiff Central and ......nowhere else in Wales.


That it's worked in cardiff central and north for stevens and mcmorrin will be used as justification for its national position though, that's what they'll do - cardiff north was held, mcmorrin is hard remain, so should have been harder remain everywhere else. That will be the logic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Grimsby is going Tory. It's just fucking baffling. The homeless and the mentally broken walk the streets, the shops are all pawnbrokers and vape shacks and people are going hungry. And yet, and yet


And town have been doing shit too


----------



## Favelado (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Grimsby is going Tory. It's just fucking baffling. The homeless and the mentally broken walk the streets, the shops are all pawnbrokers and vape shacks and people are going hungry. And yet, and yet


Blackpool South possibly too. Mental.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> There is no left-wing organisation in Wales talking to Leave voters. It's ridiculous, and depressing. I was going well off-piste canvassing by pushing Corbyn's compromise, a lot of the time we were being told to push Remain, or avoid talking about Brexit  Pushing Remain works in Cardiff North and Cardiff Central and ......nowhere else in Wales.



Wales voted leave and it's amazing how much that gets ignored, especially by Plaid.


----------



## campanula (Dec 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’m crying too.



Me too, Sheila. With daughter on the phone doing the same. She has been in court every day this week, giving evidence in 3 separate child abuse cases. The system is so irreparably broken, she has 28 complex cases (the normal caseload is 16-17 ish) and she feels as though she is just an agent of state repression. I have been in court too (non payment of council tax) because Sweetheart's awful health issues has left us stony broke with no access to benefits because we have a pocket woodland. The measly ESA/UC I get is reduced by more than 25% because of the bedroom tax. Trying not to despair but really can't face the TV.

My fucking idiot sister and her (worse) family have all voted Tory.  Finally, my offspring have  given up on their cherished family reunification project (I had fucked them off years ago).


----------



## telbert (Dec 12, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Bit of a cunts comment to make then mate. Always thought better of you TBH but yeah emotions are high!
> 
> When you hear ordinary folk spouting tabloid media spin about Corbyn you really do have to ask yourself how democratic this country or any western one is now. He's anti Jew, IRA sympathiser, a Russian red...
> 
> ...


You're completely right mate. No excuses. T


friedaweed said:


> Bit of a cunts comment to make then mate. Always thought better of you TBH but yeah emotions are high!
> 
> When you hear ordinary folk spouting tabloid media spin about Corbyn you really do have to ask yourself how democratic this country or any western one is now. He's anti Jew, IRA sympathiser, a Russian red...
> 
> ...



Sorry mate,  absolutely didn't mean to  be cuntish.


----------



## rubbershoes (Dec 12, 2019)

At least some people here will be happy as we'll be out the EU.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

This amused me. The whole pub is full of people talking politics and being angry/upset. And I look around and there's a bloke proudly taking a picture of his pint.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 12, 2019)

Currently telling all my family to get out the UK now. My mum may have to stay until my dad pops his clogs. 

I left 8 years ago, people on urban told me to stay and fight. I fely guilty, but now, nah, not with the experience I had growing up the daughter of an immigrant mother and council estate father.

I am genuinely worried for the UK and hope that Scotland get their independance. If you have the opportunity to get out the country (not via Brexit) please do. 

It's not going to get better.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 12, 2019)

Wish some of you would get a fucking grip.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Fuck that. This is where I live. This is where we do the many small important things that make a difference.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2019)

Chi Onwurah labour holds newcastle central


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 12, 2019)

Labour are winning!


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

telbert said:


> You're completely right mate. No excuses. T
> 
> 
> Sorry mate,  absolutely didn't mean to  be cuntish.


Fair dos mate and none taken. Sorry for taking the hump. x

Let's share our love for Newcastle and it's folk


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

So that doesn't look that bad?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

sunderland . looks like it didnt go blue.


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> Labour are winning!


That made me smile, if I go to bed now I can believe it's all going to be ok.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> This amused me. The whole pub is full of people talking politics and being angry/upset. And I look around and there's a bloke proudly taking a picture of his pint.


That just about sums up this countries politics currently Ed but the significant population of the county's people not politicised and are happy taking pictures of their pints.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

wiskey said:


> That made me smile, if I go to bed now I can believe it's all going to be ok.


Yeah I'm tempted to have a valerian tea now.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Blyth Valley going to a 'bundled' recount.



Tory gain!

Labour won by 7,915 last time & had held it since the 1950's.


----------



## Looby (Dec 12, 2019)

Blyth. [emoji20]


----------



## wiskey (Dec 12, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Yeah I'm tempted to have a valerian tea now.


I made a cuppa ... No milk 

Did find some biscuits though


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> sunderland . looks like it didnt go blue.



Wrong Sunderland seat.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

fucking blyth. fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 12, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> We've been Trumped. It's not democracy by any means now. Time to riot!



This isn’t Trump - he didn’t win percentage-wise, and has a media and judiciary that will hold him to account. This is Putin. Captive media, tame electoral commission etc. Oligarchs pulling the strings.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

campanula said:


> Me too, Sheila. With daughter on the phone doing the same. She has been in court every day this week, giving evidence in 3 separate child abuse cases. The system is so irreparably broken, she has 28 complex cases (the normal caseload is 16-17 ish) and she feels as though she is just an agent of state repression. I have been in court too (non payment of council tax) because Sweetheart's awful health issues has left us stony broke with no access to benefits because we have a pocket woodland. The measly ESA/UC I get is reduced by more than 25% because of the bedroom tax. Trying not to despair but really can't face the TV.
> 
> My fucking idiot sister and her (worse) family have all voted Tory.  Finally, my offspring have  given up on their cherished family reunification project (I had fucked them off years ago).





https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/post-election-support-thread-2019.368647/#post-16324402


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2019)

jesus fucking christ, has anyone been to blyth? how the fuck has this happened ( rhetorical)


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2019)

Blyth Valley. You stupid cunts.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 12, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> fucking blyth. fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck



I'm pleased my Nan isn't here to see her hometown go Tory.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 12, 2019)

There is no hope in electoral politics now.

The thing is, what else can you do?


----------



## UrbaneFox (Dec 12, 2019)

Utterly .... ????


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Grimsby is going Tory. It's just fucking baffling.



Dont mean to be disrespectful but it really isnt. But I remember 1979.


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> They are but Boris is happy throwing anyone under a bus.
> 
> He's not a particularly strong radical, he prides himself on this centrist Churchill shit. It's not a dead cert but it is improved odds he goes softer Brexit now.


I genuinely hope you’re right. I hope he believes his own bullshit. People like JRM and Farage are a different kettle of fish though.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 12, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> They are but Boris is happy throwing anyone under a bus.
> 
> He's not a particularly strong radical, he prides himself on this centrist Churchill shit. It's not a dead cert but it is improved odds he goes softer Brexit now.



Haven’t kipper entryists caused local associations to put up a lot of hard Brexit loonies? Plus all the moderates leaving. It might not be up to him.


----------



## telbert (Dec 12, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Fair dos mate and none taken. Sorry for taking the hump. x
> 
> Let's share our love for Newcastle and it's folk


Ta mate.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> This isn’t Trump - he didn’t win percentage-wise, and has a media and judiciary that will hold him to account. This is Putin. Captive media, tame electoral commission etc. Oligarchs pulling the strings.


I wasn't suggesting it was anything to do with Trump. I was drawing a similarity. You know, the sort of election where you wake up in the morning and a mad man is running your country, sort of bad dream similarity.

Like wiskey I'm going to save a couple of biscuits to sweeten the blow of reality when I wake up. There after it's aldi rich tea and a lot more stuff in my trolley for the food bank


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Humberto said:


> There is no hope in electoral politics now.
> 
> The thing is, what else can you do?


If only there was some sort of left-anarchist forum to help with this


----------



## Hollis (Dec 12, 2019)

Blyth Valley - Tories just gained their 116th target seat..


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2019)

Hard for me to be reasonable right now, but anyone who voted tory because they wanted to 'get brexit done' is a fucking moron. There appear to be millions of them.


----------



## kazza007 (Dec 12, 2019)

Bye bye blythe


----------



## Ming (Dec 12, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Clearly a master strategist.


Well the Tories have won again. And likely increased their majority from the exit polling. Funny that. For a bunch of clueless wonders.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2019)

Riots in the summer


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

Gonna go to bed in a bit and dream of unlikely christmas riots, what the fuck else is there


----------



## Casual Observer (Dec 12, 2019)

Blythe Tory cunt worked (until today) for the NHS. Words fail me.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Riots in the summer


Next winter, to keep them warm


----------



## Humberto (Dec 12, 2019)

I finished me spaceship and I'm off.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Haven’t kipper entryists caused local associations to put up a lot of hard Brexit loonies? Plus all the moderates leaving. It might not be up to him.



Possibly but unlike Labour the Tory party is a dictatorship.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Riots in the summer



What's wrong with Spring?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 12, 2019)

'tight in bridgend' fucking bridgend


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 12, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hard for me to be reasonable right now, but anyone who voted tory because they wanted to 'get brexit done' is a fucking moron. There appear to be millions of them.


Yet labour are supposedly for a second referendum. Looks like they could be getting it sooner than they wanted.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 12, 2019)

Humberto said:


> There is no hope in electoral politics now.
> 
> The thing is, what else can you do?



TBH, I think this election has pushed me from social democrat to anarchist.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 12, 2019)

The Tories take _Blyth Valley_ with a 1,000 majority

Play Leaving GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 12, 2019)

I've never gone to bed this early on election night as far back as I can remember, The Blyth result means I can't watch any more.

Fuck


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 12, 2019)

Has it been presented as a possible share of vote yet? I’ve not seen it as a percentage yet, curious which polling was accurate.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 12, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> TBH, I think this election has pushed me from social democrat to anarchist.


I'm surprised. You always come across as the latter


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 12, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> They should have listened to their voters who voted leave and got totally ignored.



Correct.

And this is the fallout.


----------



## prunus (Dec 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> 'tight in bridgend' fucking bridgend



Tight is good. It’s at 96% forecast to go blue, so if there’s a chance it’s not...

I know I should stop this clutching at straws, it’ll just be repeating the disappointment over and over.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 12, 2019)

So looking at the Blyth result do we think the brexit party took votes off Labour and cost them the seat or maybe stoped a larger Tory majority. 

CONConservative
Ian Levy
Votes:17,440
Vote share %:42.7
Vote share change:+5.4

LABLabour
Susan Dungworth
Votes:16,728
Vote share %:40.9
Vote share change:-15.0

BRXThe Brexit Party
Mark Peart
Votes:3,394
Vote share %:8.3
Vote share change:+8.3


----------



## treelover (Dec 12, 2019)

The Red Wall has had a fucking big JCB smashed through it, god save us all.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

existentialist said:


> I was going to turn in, but I think I want to face tomorrow with at least a bit of a hangover. And there's a bottle of Grouse there that's not going to drink itself. I think I'll fire up the vape, too, while I'm at it.
> 
> ETA: so does this make this the Official Urban Election Sorrows-Drowning Thread, or should we be taking that elsewhere?



https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/post-election-support-thread-2019.368647/#post-16324402


----------



## a_chap (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm desperately trying to find some positives.

At least we're guaranteed to get 40 new hospitals.

[Shoots self...]


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Correct.
> 
> And this is the fallout.



Yeah. But you lost the right to an opinion on here a while back you Tory twat. Fuck off.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 12, 2019)

I'm cautiously optimistic, (don't quote me), we can win in 2040.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

editor said:


> Fucking Cameron. The spineless cunt. This is all his doing. He split the country forever.


Nah, he just created the issue through which very real divisions would be warped and twisted.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

Worst thing is that all of the stuff they've promised and won't materialize will be forgotten at next election as some other shit is pushed by the Mail and all their mates.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Tory voters are a virus and cancer. Hurry up and die you degenerate vermin.


Fuck off with that, whatever this is about it isn't about being old.


----------



## binka (Dec 12, 2019)

At the rate this box of wine is going down I don't think I'll last too long. Probably a good thing, I only got this telly a couple of months ago it would be a shame to put my foot through it when I reach smug Tory overload


----------



## existentialist (Dec 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Riots in the summer


We have to wait that long?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 12, 2019)

emanymton said:


> So looking at the Blyth result do we think the brexit party took votes off Labour and cost them the seat or maybe stoped a larger Tory majority.
> 
> CONConservative
> Ian Levy
> ...



Impossible to know, although Farage has already been claiming the BP has helped the Tories in the north, by taking Labour votes that wouldn't go to them.


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 12, 2019)

emanymton said:


> So looking at the Blyth result do we think the brexit party took votes off Labour and cost them the seat or maybe stoped a larger Tory majority.
> 
> CONConservative
> Ian Levy
> ...



People that couldn't bring themselves to vote tory, likely old school Labour leave voters.

So yeah I reckon they took votes from Labour.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2019)

But wait ......

... at 23:52 there's 3 seats declared and it's 2 to labour 1 to tory, at this rate corbyn will have 100 majority


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 12, 2019)

emanymton said:


> So looking at the Blyth result do we think the brexit party took votes off Labour and cost them the seat or maybe stoped a larger Tory majority.
> 
> CONConservative
> Ian Levy
> ...





2017

Labour 23,770

Conservative 15,855


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Fuck off with that, whatever this is about it isn't about being old.



I meant the young scum too. All Tory vermin must die obviously


----------



## oryx (Dec 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Fuck off with that, whatever this is about it isn't about being old.


FWIW I didn't interpret that as a comment on older voters.


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 12, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Yeah. But you lost the right to an opinion on here a while back you Tory twat. Fuck off.


Trouble is on this occasion he's not wrong


----------



## GarveyLives (Dec 12, 2019)

Why Black Brits Are Considering Leaving UK After Election: 'If The Conservatives Win, I'm Gone'


----------



## emanymton (Dec 12, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Fuck off with that, whatever this is about it isn't about being old.


People have been predicting the end of the Tories due to old age for decades. Tonight shows how stupid that is


----------



## Wilf (Dec 12, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I meant the young scum too. All Tory vermin must die obviously


Fair enough. Like everybody else I'm not in a great mood.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 12, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> Why Black Brits Are Considering Leaving UK After Election: 'If The Conservatives Win, I'm Gone'




What's your opinion on this? Do you have one?


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 12, 2019)

lizzieloo said:


> Trouble is on this occasion he's not wrong



He's always wrong even when he's right.

And I said "Yeah".


----------



## 8115 (Dec 12, 2019)

When do all the results start coming in thick and fast? I feel like I'm slowly dying.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 12, 2019)

lizzieloo said:


> People that couldn't bring themselves to vote tory, likely old school Labour leave voters.
> 
> So yeah I reckon they took votes from Labour.


Yeah I think so to.


----------



## yardbird (Dec 12, 2019)

I have been life Socialist as was my father before me. Neither of us were given respect here. Dad is long gone and I'm 72 in Feb.
Corbyn has fucked up my party The Labour Party that I knocked on doors for.
Sad. Very


----------



## a_chap (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> When do all the results start coming in thick and fast? I feel like I'm slowly dying.



The results coming in quicker will probably just help you die quicker, sadly


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 12, 2019)

8115 said:


> When do all the results start coming in thick and fast? I feel like I'm slowly dying.




If memory serves me right, it starts around 1:00 am and gets busy from 2:00 onwards.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 12, 2019)

a_chap said:


> At least we're guaranteed to get 40 new private hospitals.



FTFW


----------



## two sheds (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> People have been predicting the end of the Tories due to old age for decades. Tonight shows how stupid that is



My mum used to get the Daily Mail (GRHS ) . In 1971 they printed a letter from a little old lady saying "I keep reading that only old people will be confused by decimalisation and the problem will go when we've all died off. Don't they realise that people are growing old all the time???" 

I'm not sure how that's relevant but I feel it somehow is.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

yardbird said:


> I have been life Socialist as was my father before me. Neither of us were given respect here. Dad is long gone and I'm 72 in Feb.
> Corbyn has fucked up my party The Labour Party that I knocked on doors for.
> Sad. Very


Corbyn tried to bring a bit of socialism back in. That was a decent manifesto, best in decades, and it's been rejected in favour of a bunch of lying cunts.


----------



## a_chap (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Corbyn tried to bring a bit of socialism back in. That was a decent manifesto, best in decades, and it's been rejected in favour of a bunch of lying cunts.



It's the lies wot won it.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Corbyn tried to bring a bit of socialism back in. That was a decent manifesto, best in decades, and it's been rejected in favour of a bunch of lying cunts.



People prefer bullshitters.


----------



## binka (Dec 13, 2019)

yardbird said:


> I have been life Socialist as was my father before me. Neither of us were given respect here. Dad is long gone and I'm 72 in Feb.
> Corbyn has fucked up my party The Labour Party that I knocked on doors for.
> Sad. Very


Can I ask how you think he fucked the party up? My dad is 69, life long labour member and union shop steward - very involved in the party and basically old school labour left and he loves Corbyn


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Corbyn tried to bring a bit of socialism back in. That was a decent manifesto, best in decades, and it's been rejected in favour of a bunch of lying cunts.


In favour of getting Brexit done.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 13, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> Why Black Brits Are Considering Leaving UK After Election: 'If The Conservatives Win, I'm Gone'



Huffpost?

Give it 5mins and they’ll be blaming Russia.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Huffpost?
> 
> Give it 5mins and they’ll be blaming Russia.


Just fuck off.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2019)

Kate Hoey ex Vauxhall MP says she is "positive about the result". Meaning a Boris victory. Speaking on BBC a few minutes ago.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

WC voters have voted for more poverty, more inequality, more homelessness, more ZHC, more welfare cuts, 

where is the fight going to come from,U/C, Bedroon tax,deaths from welfare cuts, not exactly been on a mass scale, and now it is going to be turbo charged.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

My nightmare is going to come true. Labour are going to jump to the right and have a chance to win in 2024, but even if they do they just carry on driving us into the shit. This doesn't fuck us for 5 years it fucks us for decades. 

Unless people actually fight back, but I have fuck all hope for that.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 13, 2019)

How many people are going to die because of this result. There's a lot of people who've barely made it through the last few years. This is desperate.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> If only there was some sort of left-anarchist forum to help with this




Help how?


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

binka said:


> Can I ask how you think he fucked the party up? My dad is 69, life long labour member and union shop steward - very involved in the party and basically old school labour left and he loves Corbyn


I think that there's a chunk of the country that always vote Labour, and a chunk of the country that always vote Conservative, and same for the other parties, but actually, floating voters make up a massive part of the country and Corbyn, like it or not, wasn't popular with people who are not heavily invested in Labour.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> People have been predicting the end of the Tories due to old age for decades. Tonight shows how stupid that is



Last time I had a vague look at this topic I think I concluded that its had a serious impact on the number of actual party members. Which probably doesnt mean much unless the numbers dwindled to some unsustainable level, and I dont remember seeing that looming large on the cards at all.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

My friend's parents read the Daily Mail and about 6 months ago he sent me a photo of the front page, with a banner saying "How to protect your cash from Corbyn". That's what he was up against.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Kate Hoey ex Vauxhall MP says she is "positive about the result". Meaning a Boris victory. Speaking on BBC a few minutes ago.


Just saw that. She's fucking scum but, ironically, she got it right in what she was saying about how the Labour line on Brexit went from supporting in 2017 through various degrees of bollox since (and about Corbyn becoming isolated in the shadow cabinet as a result).


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> How many people are going to die because of this result. There's a lot of people who've barely made it through the last few years. This is desperate.


Yeah, I'm really worried about public services and benefits.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> View attachment 192822


Thankfully started earlier - see everyone tomorrow.


----------



## binka (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> I think that there's a chunk of the country that always vote Labour, and a chunk of the country that always vote Conservative, and same for the other parties, but actually, floating voters make up a massive part of the country and Corbyn, like it or not, wasn't popular with people who are not heavily invested in Labour.


Yeah I agree with all that I think it probably is down to Corbyns popularity in the wider public I was just interested in yardbirds thoughts on him fucking up the party


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Sunderland Central, Labour hold, but down by 13.4%, Brexit Party 11.4%, Tories only up 2%. 

Clear evidence the Brexit Party is taking Labour leave votes.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Huffpost?
> 
> Give it 5mins and they’ll be blaming Russia.





littlebabyjesus said:


> Just fuck off.



TBF the poster of the graph is a serial cut, paste and drop without comment merchant.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Just saw that. She's fucking scum but, ironically, she got it right in what she was saying about how the Labour line on Brexit went from supporting in 2017 through various degrees of bollox since (and about Corbyn becoming isolated in the shadow cabinet as a result).



She was an MP in a strongly Remain area. She showed contempt for her electorate with her support of Brexit.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sunderland Central, Labour hold, but down by 13.4%, Brexit Party 11.4%, Tories only up 2%.
> 
> Clear evidence the Brexit Party is taking Labour leave votes.


More of a reason to train seagulls to attack NF


----------



## Wilf (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> My nightmare is going to come true. Labour are going to jump to the right and have a chance to win in 2024, but even if they do they just carry on driving us into the shit. This doesn't fuck us for 5 years it fucks us for decades.
> 
> Unless people actually fight back, but I have fuck all hope for that.


Yep. The key issue that showed up how much people have been fucked over and ignored has ended up leading to more of the same. Much more. And Labour are fucking guilty over this - new labour and Corbyn labour.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 13, 2019)

Lewis Goodall "has it on good authority" that the Tories have won Wrexham- Labour since 1922


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Does the exit poll give a prediction for overall share of vote (rather than constituencies)?


----------



## Wilf (Dec 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> She was an MP in a strongly Remain area. She showed contempt for her electorate.


Not disagreeing with you.


----------



## a_chap (Dec 13, 2019)

Sunderland Central. Turnout 60%.

60% !!!


----------



## Wilf (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Does the exit poll give a prediction for overall share of vote (rather than constituencies)?


No.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 13, 2019)

Wilf said:


> Yep. The key issue that showed up how much people have been fucked over and ignored has ended up leading to more of the same. Much more. And Labour are fucking guilty over this - new labour and Corbyn labour.



If Labour has backed Brexit they could have won this.


----------



## Ming (Dec 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Riots in the summer


So the cops get an excuse to kick the shit out of people and kill them (RIP Ian Tomlinson). Voting is the only power we have. We need to work out how to influence people to vote in their own self interest. Difficult, but identifying the problem is the first step to a solution. Never underestimate the Tories. They can be defeated but they’re good at what they do.


----------



## Winot (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Does the exit poll give a prediction for overall share of vote (rather than constituencies)?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 13, 2019)

Increasing rough sleepers, increasing food bank use, crumbling NHS, rising prices, rising rents, precarious work, suicide increase, mental health problems through the roof, ghost high streets, pension injustice, piss poor wages, crowd funding schools, child poverty up, knife crime...

'Oh aye I'll have 5 more years of that please' fucking cunts. Chuck this country in the fucking bin. It's just gonna be England, on its own like a pathetic puddle of piss on the floor of some grim night club toilet at 7 in the morning after everyone's gone home, grim, shallow, fetid...


----------



## Lorca (Dec 13, 2019)

Me missus is a Nurse, currently working a 12 hr night shift. She just texted saying how demoralized nearly everyone there is now feeling. She is constantly exhausted and stressed out due to chronic under staffing and an array of other problems and she's close to giving up. She says staff regularly have a quiet cry in the staff room, away from the patients, especially in A and E. She personally knows loads of frontline NHS staff who are actively looking for a way out. I know there's some catastrophizing going on tonight already, but I suspect a lot of people really don't know how bad things are behind the scenes. Anyway, we always wanted to move to Scotland, if the swine do get a significant majority, we will now hopefully do it!


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 13, 2019)

Ming said:


> So the cops get an excuse to kick the shit out of people and kill them (RIP Ian Tomlinson). Voting is the only power we have. We need to work out how to influence people to vote in their own self interest. Difficult, but identifying the problem is the first step to a solution. Never underestimate the Tories. They can be defeated but they’re good at what they do.


In Scotland it'll probably be the army.

Not the peelers. I'm not being funny.


----------



## spring-peeper (Dec 13, 2019)

This thread is depressing


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 13, 2019)

Ming said:


> Voting is the only power we have.



No it isn't.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 13, 2019)

Get brexit done is what won it. Hopefully the tories will hang them selves on their own rope. Love and solidarity to all. We fight on for a better world x


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 13, 2019)

a_chap said:


> Sunderland Central. Turnout 60%.
> 
> 60% !!!



Too busy making Nissans, I expect. Turnout should be a lot higher next time


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Yeah, I'm really worried about public services and benefits.



The further declines already baked in by decisions made in the major austerity years, coupled with the freshly empowered swine having their eyes on a bunch of bigger, longer term prizes, might mean the new government dont go as hard on some fronts as people understandably fear they will right now.

I dont mean this as some kind of optimistic take, I have no silver linings to offer, but I suspect the agenda will be slightly different.


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 13, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> 2017
> 
> Labour 23,770
> 
> Conservative 15,855


In 2017 Labour said they'd honour the Brexit vote.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Winot said:


>



It seems like a lot of conclusions about what people want and what labour have done wrong, and so on, are being drawn without talking about overall vote share. As usual the (predicted) dramatic majority in Parliament doesn't reflect how people have actually voted.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 13, 2019)

I


treelover said:


> WC voters have voted for more poverty, more inequality, more homelessness, more ZHC, more welfare cuts,
> 
> where is the fight going to come from,U/C, Bedroon tax,deaths from welfare cuts, not exactly been on a mass scale, and now it is going to be turbo charged.



Bullshit.


----------



## steeplejack (Dec 13, 2019)

BBC radio Cumbria reporting Tories will win in Workington and Barrow. Sedgefield going Tory as well.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 13, 2019)

Lorca said:


> She is constantly exhausted and stressed out due to chronic under staffing and an array of other problems and she's close to giving up. She says staff regularly have a quiet cry in the staff room, away from the patients, especially in A and E. She personally knows loads of frontline NHS staff who are actively looking for a way out.



It's no consolation to her I know, but FWIW I've heard very similar stories from the police force too.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Things are on a 'knife edge' in Swinton's seat.


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 13, 2019)

binka said:


> Can I ask how you think he fucked the party up? My dad is 69, life long labour member and union shop steward - very involved in the party and basically old school labour left and he loves Corbyn



Yep my dad has spoiled his vote for as long as I can remember "due to there being no real socialist candidate" 

He voted today.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> It seems like a lot of conclusions about what people want and what labour have done wrong, and so on, are being drawn without talking about overall vote share. As usual the (predicted) dramatic majority in Parliament doesn't reflect how people have actually voted.


Of course. Although 45 % voting Tory is bad enough. Looks like the pollsters had sorted their weighting this time. 

Feels like we're right back at peak Thatcher.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Things are on a 'knife edge' in Swinton's seat.


A possible tiny sliver of silver in a very black cloud.


----------



## wiskey (Dec 13, 2019)

I can't watch this unfold in real time, I'm going to bed and hoping by tomorrow morning it will be easier to digest.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> I can't watch this unfold in real time, I'm going to bed and hoping by tomorrow morning it will be easier to digest.


I want to give up and go to bed, but can't stop watching.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> I can't watch this unfold in real time, I'm going to bed and hoping by tomorrow morning it will be easier to digest.


Works with pizza, in my experience.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour candidate (previously the MP) in Stoke-on-Trent, told BBC that he expects to lose his seat, and that the (two?) other seats in Stoke - held by Labour since God was an apprentice - will also fall to the Tories.

He was less than coy about the future of Corbyn....


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Massive swing to the Tories in North Swindon, almost doubled their majority from around 8k to 16k.


----------



## pennimania (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> I can't watch this unfold in real time, I'm going to bed and hoping by tomorrow morning it will be easier to digest.



Me too.

Old Archers podcasts help.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Labour candidate (previously the MP) in Stoke-on-Trent, told BBC that he expects to lose his seat, and that the (two?) other seats in Stoke - held by Labour since God was an apprentice - will also fall to the Tories.
> 
> He was less than coy about the future of Corbyn....


Gareth Snell. Another silver lining.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 13, 2019)

steeplejack said:


> BBC radio Cumbria reporting Tories will win in Workington and Barrow. Sedgefield going Tory as well.



Barrow was a top ten target and was in no doubt. Submarines and the IRA - I've heard nothing else.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

Goodnight good folk. Back tomorrow.
Hopefully less depressed.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 13, 2019)

I'm off. I have to go to work in 7 hours with kids who are going to be even more fucked by this than me. I need to get my shit together.

Know your rights. Know your riots. Night all.


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> I want to give up and go to bed, but can't stop watching.



I give you an hour.  Fuck watching smug toffs drenching each other in 10k bottles of bubbles after they leave their "clubs"


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

Something I haven't heard mentioned is how remarkable it is for the party in government to gain any seats, let alone this many. Makes Labours performance look even worse.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 13, 2019)

Right. I’m off. Doubled majority in Swindon. Ugh.

Maybe I’ll wake up dead and it won’t matter to me anymore.


----------



## spring-peeper (Dec 13, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Right. I’m off. Doubled majority in Swindon. Ugh.
> 
> Maybe I’ll wake up dead and it won’t matter to me anymore.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 13, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Right. I’m off. Doubled majority in Swindon. Ugh.
> 
> Maybe I’ll wake up dead and it won’t matter to me anymore.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 13, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Right. I’m off. Doubled majority in Swindon. Ugh.
> 
> Maybe I’ll wake up dead and it won’t matter to me anymore.


There is power in a union. Wake up and be with us x


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course. Although 45 % voting Tory is bad enough. Looks like the pollsters had sorted their weighting this time.
> 
> Feels like we're right back at peak Thatcher.


But the labour percentage of overall vote is not much different from that in 2005 or 2010 is it?


----------



## Hollis (Dec 13, 2019)

Brexit Party appear to have done Tories a massive favour..


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 13, 2019)

Worst Friday ever. 

The only silver lining is that a 32 county Republic seems inevitable now, as does Scottish independence. But meanwhile, another generation fucked over by the Tories and a return of Blairism is a horrifying thought.


----------



## a_chap (Dec 13, 2019)

Sunderland West. Turnout 57%

57%

Christ. Did no-one fucking care?


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Under the exit poll, Sedgefield (ex-Tony Blair), Hartlepool (ex-Peter Mandleson) and Bolsover (Dennis Skinner) all fall Tory.



 Fuck these people. Working-class people in those areas voting Tory. No, no more excuses.


----------



## Tankus (Dec 13, 2019)

some lowish turnouts ...   57% in Sunderland west   ....somewhat surprised


----------



## two sheds (Dec 13, 2019)

I kept looking at photos of the queues at the polls and thinking "wehey - loads of young people"

well there you go.


----------



## Tankus (Dec 13, 2019)

a_chap said:


> Sunderland West. Turnout 57%
> 57%  Christ. Did no-one fucking care?


when its a choice of shit or turds.......  , maybe  _they_ wanted to stay _unsmeared _


----------



## weepiper (Dec 13, 2019)

Tankus said:


> some lowish turnouts ...   57% in Sunderland west   ....somewhat surprised


80% turnout in Jo Swinson's seat, I've just read


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

Tankus said:


> some lowish turnouts ...   57% in Sunderland west   ....somewhat surprised



I think I still expect it to be higher than usual in some places, although that will probably delay their results and make it more likely I will be in bed by then.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Tankus said:


> some lowish turnouts ...   57% in Sunderland west   ....somewhat surprised


Bit lower than 2017, still higher than 2015 or 2010, though. It's historically an area with a low turnout.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)




----------



## AverageJoe (Dec 13, 2019)

I might be reading it wrong, as I'm not a maths buff, but it seems that the turnout overall is exceptionally low?


----------



## Wilf (Dec 13, 2019)

Any road off to bed. 'Good night' all.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 13, 2019)

McDonnell claims it was Brexit that cost them the vote.
Gareth Snell claims Labour's Brexit position cost them the election.
Jeremy Vine overlays Brexit leave with Tory gains and they match almost 100%

Andrew Neill, Laura K, anyone else on BBC: Surely this means the shift to the left was disasterous?

No.

It was the pivot to remain that cost this election. The manifesto was good. The policies has a surprising amount of cross party support. The anti-semitism reporting was obviously not good, but it was nothing new.

Ignoring the referendum result was the turning point. That Labour manifesto with Brexit _was _Lexit.

And they blew it.


lizzieloo said:


> In 2017 Labour said they'd honour the Brexit vote.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

AverageJoe said:


> I might be reading it wrong, as I'm not a maths buff, but it seems that the turnout overall is exceptionally low?


Don't think so. These are the very early returns from places that historically are lower than average. eg Sunderland West has been a constituency for four elections now and this is the second-highest turnout of the four.


----------



## a_chap (Dec 13, 2019)

After an election I almost always stay up all night watching the results come in.

Frankly I can't be arsed to listen/read/watch to the stream of shite that is the live coverage. I'm off to bed a broken man.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 13, 2019)

What they/we don't want to do is start disowning the project. You'll only end up with a weak leader starting all over again.

Won't work.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 13, 2019)

What you need is someone streetwise with it. Source: I reckon.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Lorca said:


> Me missus is a Nurse, currently working a 12 hr night shift. She just texted saying how demoralized nearly everyone there is now feeling. She is constantly exhausted and stressed out due to chronic under staffing and an array of other problems and she's close to giving up. She says staff regularly have a quiet cry in the staff room, away from the patients, especially in A and E. She personally knows loads of frontline NHS staff who are actively looking for a way out. I know there's some catastrophizing going on tonight already, but I suspect a lot of people really don't know how bad things are behind the scenes. Anyway, we always wanted to move to Scotland, if the swine do get a significant majority, we will now hopefully do it!


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 13, 2019)

a_chap said:


> After an election I almost always stay up all night watching the results come in.
> 
> Frankly I can't be arsed to listen/read/watch to the stream of shite that is the live coverage. I'm off to bed a broken man.


Exactly the same.

Live to fight another day.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

My friends family are all medics of various kinds, and yes it is exactly the same, they are looking for escape routes, abroad, etc.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> McDonnell claims it was Brexit that cost them the vote.
> Gareth Snell claims Labour's Brexit position cost them the election.
> Jeremy Vine overlays Brexit leave with Tory gains and they match almost 100%
> 
> ...


All this ignores the (unknown) quantity of votes that would have been lost if a remain-friendly position had not been adopted.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 13, 2019)

Five years though.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 13, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> McDonnell claims it was Brexit that cost them the vote.
> Gareth Snell claims Labour's Brexit position cost them the election.
> Jeremy Vine overlays Brexit leave with Tory gains and they match almost 100%
> 
> ...


Yep, there would have been plenty of work for labour to do to convince their remain voters of that, but it was the only _conceivable _line to take. A principled line and one around which they could start to map out a lexit/soc democratic lexit.  A positive message of engagement with the world but on something other than neoliberalism.  But it wasn't just that they didn't take that line, they didn't end up with _any _line on Brexit. Fucking astonishing, Corbyn having to say he'd renegotiate the deal but unable to say whether he would actually vote for that deal. 

Right, really am going to bed...


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> I
> 
> 
> Bullshit.



Ok, where was the national mass demo against UC?


----------



## a_chap (Dec 13, 2019)

Right, I really am going to bed...


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> All this ignores the (unknown) quantity of votes that would have been lost if a remain-friendly position had not been adopted.


No, it doesn't.

Imagine you're a non-Tory voter. You're a remainer or a leaver. A Lib-Dem, Green or Labour supporter.

Labour Leavers in Labour areas won't vote Tory en masse, but they do see Brexit as one of the most important issues - so Brexit Party gets their vote. This benefits the Tories, as in Blyth.
Labour Remainers in Labour areas can vote for Labour and get a promise of a 2nd referendum, vs defo Brexit with any other possibile party.

So, Labour remainers have nowhere to go. Labour leavers have Tory, Brexit Party, both of which hurt Labour.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Nuneaton CON hold, majority up from under 5k to over 13k, this was a Labour seat during the 90's & up to 2010.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

I hope it's down to Brexit because the other option - that people can't stomach socialism - is quite depressing. I'm not sure though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> All this ignores the (unknown) quantity of votes that would have been lost if a remain-friendly position had not been adopted.


Yep. iirc 63% of labour voters voted remain. Higher than SNP voters. 

It's an easy trap to fall into when one strategy clearly fails to think another would have been better. Cunting off 'remainers' could potentially have given the libdems hope in various other parts of the country. I'm afraid a very large number of people _like Johnson_. It's idiotic, but it's undeniable. And in the US, many were saying (including me) that Sanders would have done better against Trump than Clinton. But he might not. Once the partial press had got into him, he might not. A large number of people _like Trump_ as well. What an absurd fucking world.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> My friends family are all medics of various kinds, and yes it is exactly the same, they are looking for escape routes, abroad, etc.


Where to the rest of the world is pretty much just as fucked.


----------



## editor (Dec 13, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> Why Black Brits Are Considering Leaving UK After Election: 'If The Conservatives Win, I'm Gone'


Make a fucking point of your own or be banned from this thread.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> Where to the rest of the world is pretty much just as fucked.


Uruguay?


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

What's really pissing me off is how pissed of I am. That my side has been so fucked for so long that hoping for a Labour win in an election was the biggest hope I had. The Labour party shouldn't be my big hope they should be my enemy. But even that tiny bit of hope has been utterly smashed.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

Hollis said:


> Brexit Party appear to have done Tories a massive favour..


Nigel Farage is the most effective politician of the new century for sure 

Somewhat curious what the results would've been in  terms of seats if brexit party hadn't stood at all.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. iirc 63% of labour voters voted remain. Higher than SNP voters.
> 
> It's an easy trap to fall into when one strategy clearly fails to think another would have been better. Cunting off 'remainers' could potentially have given the libdems hope in various other parts of the country. I'm afraid a very large number of people _like Johnson_. It's idiotic, but it's undeniable. And in the US, many were saying (including me) that Sanders would have done better against Trump than Clinton. But he might not. Once the partial press had got into him, he might not. A large number of people _like Trump_ as well. What an absurd fucking world.


Implementing the referendum is not 'cunting off' remainers.

If you went back 10 years and offered people EU membership or that manifesto, what do you think they would choose?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. iirc 63% of labour voters voted remain. Higher than SNP voters.
> 
> It's an easy trap to fall into when one strategy clearly fails to think another would have been better. Cunting off 'remainers' could potentially have given the libdems hope in various other parts of the country. I'm afraid a very large number of people _like Johnson_. It's idiotic, but it's undeniable. And in the US, many were saying (including me) that Sanders would have done better against Trump than Clinton. But he might not. Once the partial press had got into him, he might not. A large number of people _like Trump_ as well. What an absurd fucking world.



Johnson has consistently polled as the most popular politician in the UK for at least a decade now. Grim.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Uruguay?


Too hot for me.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> So, Labour remainers have nowhere to go. Labour leavers have Tory, Brexit Party, both of which hurt Labour.



'Labour' leavers have those two parties. 'Labour' remainers have the Lib Dems, who could hurt them in the same way by vote splitting. If Labour had pursued a harder Brexit line I'm sure you'd have seen a lot more votes go to the Lib Dems.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Johnson has consistently polled as the most popular politician in the UK for at least a decade now. Grim.


Yep. He won mayor of London twice despite being objectively terrible at the job to anyone who cared to look at what he did.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Nuneaton CON hold, majority up from under 5k to over 13k, this was a Labour seat during the 90's & up to 2010.



Yes, theres something about there being almost twice as many tory votes here now as labour ones thats especially dramatic to me. Since its a con hold its also an opportunity to see whats happened in a seat which was 66% leave and where there is no brexit party candidate.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour sources saying Redcar is "lost".


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Workington CON gain, over 4k maj.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives HOLD Fylde. 
Conservatives GAIN Workington from Labour.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 13, 2019)

Workington gone


----------



## oryx (Dec 13, 2019)

editor said:


> Make a fucking point of your own or be banned from this thread.



I think that's a bit harsh TBH.

GarveyLives has made a point about a hostile environment for BAME people which when we have a likely PM who talks about 'watermelon smiles' Muslim women looking like letterboxes etc. is far from an unreasonable one.

I read their link and at least that's what I inferred.

I can see that GarveyLives often posts stuff without comment but their posts don't wind me up in the way that some posters do...


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Here we go.


----------



## UrbaneFox (Dec 13, 2019)

o workington's gone ...


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Labour sources saying Redcar is "lost".


Christ!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> Implementing the referendum is not 'cunting off' remainers.
> 
> If you went back 10 years and offered people EU membership or that manifesto, what do you think they would choose?


But that also works equally the other way. That manifesto or brexit? Brexit is clearly more important to many people. Either that, or they really don't want that kind of manifesto. Reading the 1983 manifesto, that was a rather splendid thing as well, but labour got split by the SDP and the tories won by a landslide. There is perhaps a quarter of the population that actively wants some kind of socialism. I don't know how those of us in that quarter get that number up, but that's the wider, and harder, challenge, because that number really hasn't changed in the last 40 years. I don't know. I don't have any answers at the moment. Maybe climate change needs to kick in harder for people to wake up to the disaster that is unfolding before their eyes. A few immigrants are going to have to get a kicking first. A few people are going to have to die. 

As it stands, we have just seen a victory to a proto-fascist programme of lies and misinformation in which those that cause people's problems and get rich on the back of them blame those problems on an 'other', in this case, immigrants. It's worked. Johnson going to the North East and talking about EU immigrants 'coming here and treating it like it's their own country' has worked. This goes so far beyond 'honouring the referendum'.


----------



## Ming (Dec 13, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> No it isn't.


OK, unions.


----------



## Quote (Dec 13, 2019)

God, this is so fucking depressing.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Darlington now blue. FFS !


----------



## editor (Dec 13, 2019)

oryx said:


> I think that's a bit harsh TBH.
> 
> GarveyLives has made a point about a hostile environment for BAME people which when we have a likely PM who talks about 'watermelon smiles' Muslim women looking like letterboxes etc. is far from an unreasonable one.
> 
> ...


Take a look at his posting history.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Darlington now blue. FFS !


Darlington: Con GAIN CON: 48.1% (+4.8) LAB: 40.5% (-10.1) LDEM: 4.8% (+2.5) BREX: 3.5% (+3.5) GRN: 2.4% (+1.2) Swing: Lab to Con (+7.5)


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Jesus. Just woke up. No way I'm going back to sleep but I'm fucked if I'm putting the telly on to see them scum smirking all over the place. Just fuck. 5 fucking years of these cunts to come. I could cry.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 13, 2019)

Graun said:
			
		

> If the Ipsos Mori exit poll is correct about the scale of the Scottish National party victory in Scotland, the former Scottish Tory leader, Ruth Davidson, is destined to take a nude swim on new year’s day.



Oh, Christ...


----------



## oryx (Dec 13, 2019)

editor said:


> Take a look at his posting history.



I'm aware of his posting history, because he usually posts on S/SE London threads that I am interested in, and while I can appreciate that regularly dropping news stories without comment can be irritating, in this instance I think he had a point to make.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Fez909 said:


> McDonnell claims it was Brexit that cost them the vote.
> Gareth Snell claims Labour's Brexit position cost them the election.
> Jeremy Vine overlays Brexit leave with Tory gains and they match almost 100%
> 
> ...



This was socialism, and the left left's, chance for a generation. The public isn't up for it (again). For years, (at risk of sounding like a faux nostradamus), it was always this election that was Corbyn's chance. Him vs Hard right. I never thought he had a chance against a moderate tory.

Its game over for Corbyn and McDonnell,  as much as it kills me. I'd back Starmer,  but it'll take something very special for media to not fawn over 'box office' Boris every election for years to come. And the Tories will always be streets ahead with Bannon/Cummings tactics (ime what won it).

Boris, on paper, is the worst candidate I've ever seen. The dark arts that have propelled him to the top is depressingly impressive. I can't see what can stop him.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

maomao said:


> Jesus. Just woke up. No way I'm going back to sleep but I'm fucked if I'm putting the telly on to see them scum smirking all over the place. Just fuck. 5 fucking years of these cunts to come. I could cry.


Don't you want to know what Heidi Allen and Aaron Banks have to say? 

Only joking, we're still fucked. I'd get another 5 hours sleep in if I were you.


----------



## editor (Dec 13, 2019)

oryx said:


> I'm aware of his posting history, because he usually posts on S/SE London threads that I am interested in, and while I can appreciate that regularly dropping news stories without comment can be irritating, in this instance I think he had a point to make.


I've just had enough of his comment-free cut and paste posts. It's something that the faq is quite clear on and many posters have quite rightly reported them in the past.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Don't you want to know what Heidi Allen and Aaron Banks have to say?
> 
> Only joking, we're still fucked. I'd get another 5 hours sleep in if I were you.


How fucking bad is when Allen manages to be one of the most sensible people on all night. That's how low we have sunk.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)




----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Mootest of points, but how did the pre-pollsters get it so wrong? I did get a bit buoyed by the twitter/fb echo chamber that I did everything to disregard...But even objectively, none of the polls predicted this


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Don't you want to know what Heidi Allen and Aaron Banks have to say?
> 
> Only joking, we're still fucked. I'd get another 5 hours sleep in if I were you.


I'd be three hours late for work.

Just fuck this shit man.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Mootest of points, but how did the pre-pollsters get it so wrong? I did get a bit buoyed by the twitter/fb echo chamber that I did everything to disregard...But even objectively, none of the polls predicted this


I think they did? The Tories have done a bit better than the polls predicted but not much.

The twitter echo chamber was immense though, at least from where I was standing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Mootest of points, but how did the pre-pollsters get it so wrong? I did get a bit buoyed by the twitter/fb echo chamber that I did everything to disregard...But even objectively, none of the polls predicted this


Didn't nearly all of the polls predict this? 

I was pinning my hopes on their models being wrong again.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But that also works equally the other way. That manifesto or brexit? Brexit is clearly more important to many people. Either that, or they really don't want that kind of manifesto. Reading the 1983 manifesto, that was a rather splendid thing as well, but labour got split by the SDP and the tories won by a landslide. There is perhaps a quarter of the population that actively wants some kind of socialism. I don't know how those of us in that quarter get that number up, but that's the wider, and harder, challenge, because that number really hasn't changed in the last 40 years. I don't know. I don't have any answers at the moment. Maybe climate change needs to kick in harder for people to wake up to the disaster that is unfolding before their eyes. A few immigrants are going to have to get a kicking first. A few people are going to have to die.



There is an existing 'conventional wisdom' along those lines for sure, which I did think of when skimming the Labour manifesto.

The Brexit stuff will complicate any conclusions from this election on that one, but it will probably reinforce that conventional wisdom about overt socialism in uk elections regardless.

Personally I'm unwilling to buy heavily into grand proclamations about what the voting public would accept, because I think its unnecessarily limiting and I'm not going to do my political opposites work for them. Many things are plausible given the right context. But in this case I think the context was flawed. Even leaving aside brexit, the return of socialism to some areas of mainstream political discourse has happened in a rather incomplete and one-dimensional form. The most obvious example from the Labour manifesto I can think of right now to explain what I mean was the 4 day week stuff. I'm fairly sure this sort of aspiration came across as bizarre and otherworldly to some sections of the voting public. Because we have not had a series of very long and occasionally sensible public discussions around this topic with which to set the scene and provide some connection between this sort of vision of the future and everything else people have been encouraged to think about work and the economy for decades.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Mootest of points, but how did the pre-pollsters get it so wrong? I did get a bit buoyed by the twitter/fb echo chamber that I did everything to disregard...But even objectively, none of the polls predicted this


The Tories had a 10+ lead throughout. They can't have been as wrong as they would have had to have been for Labour to scrape a hung parliament.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Gateshead
Speaker GAINS Chorley from Labour


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> I think they did? The Tories have done a bit better than the polls predicted but not much.
> 
> The twitter echo chamber was immense though, at least from where I was standing.



Ah, I thought this massively surpasses the predictions. They had it much closer, irrc


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour holds Makerfield


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Mootest of points, but how did the pre-pollsters get it so wrong? I did get a bit buoyed by the twitter/fb echo chamber that I did everything to disregard...But even objectively, none of the polls predicted this



They are talking about a Tory result of a 12.5% lead, all yesterday's polls had it on 9-12%, except ComRes on 5%, so most were within the +/- 2% margin of error.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Ah, I thought this massively surpasses the predictions. They had it much closer, irrc


Selective memory. I was guilty of the same thing. You see the odd poll with a much closer gap and remember that and forget the rest.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Ah, I thought this massively surpasses the predictions. They had it much closer, irrc


I guess they didn't spell out what the polls meant, why is maybe interesting.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Knowsley
Labour hold Caerphilly
Conservatives GAIN Vale of Clwyd from Labour


----------



## oryx (Dec 13, 2019)

editor said:


> I've just had enough of his comment-free cut and paste posts. It's something that the faq is quite clear on.



Absolutely fair enough, I can see his posting style may be irritating and breaches FAQ but I also think he is an important poster. The stuff GarveyLives posts is a jolt out of many people's comfort zones which is necessary. I agree that it would be good to see him comment on his postings but maybe they don't need comment?

Maybe for another thread, another time. I think most of us are stunned/horrified tonight.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Vale of Clwyd CON gain, by a local GP!


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

I don't know what I'm hoping for anymore.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Labour hold Knowsley
> *My old borough. Think it would have been whisky and tablets if that went blue.*



Fucked that quote up, and I'm only 3 beers in


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservative GAIN Wrexham from Labour.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

elbows said:


> There is an existing 'conventional wisdom' along those lines for sure, which I did think of when skimming the Labour manifesto.
> 
> The Brexit stuff will complicate any conclusions from this election on that one, but it will probably reinforce that conventional wisdom about overt socialism in uk elections regardless.
> 
> Personally I'm unwilling to buy heavily into grand proclamations about what the voting public would accept, because I think its unnecessarily limiting and I'm not going to do my political opposites work for them. Many things are plausible given the right context. But in this case I think the context was flawed. Even leaving aside brexit, the return of socialism to some areas of mainstream political discourse has happened in a rather incomplete and one-dimensional form. The most obvious example from the Labour manifesto I can think of right now to explain what I mean was the 4 day week stuff. I'm fairly sure this sort of aspiration came across as bizarre and otherworldly to some sections of the voting public. Because we have not had a series of very long and occasionally sensible public discussions around this topic with which to set the scene and provide some connection between this sort of vision of the future and everythign else people have been encouraged to think about work and the economy for decades.



Yes, I agree. And I wanted Labour to really push the Green New Deal this time as the one big idea from which everything else would then hang. That gives the whole programme an overarching point and necessity. I was encouraged by the bits they did, but I wanted them to fall full-square behind it.

That might not have worked either, though. As I said above, we are all sometimes guilty of thinking some other strategy would have been better when the one adopted fails, but we don't know it would.

I think the difficult truth unfolding here is that it was brexit wot won it for Johnson, and 'get brexit done' might always have beaten 'green new deal'. But if Labour had supported brexit after blocking it in the commons, they would have left themselves wide open to all kinds of attacks as well. How the fuck did we get to this - the tories totally fuck up and lead the country into crisis and gridlock, and _Labour_ suffers the consequences.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

I don't think, living in an affluent remain constituency in the south, I really appreciated what Brexit meant to people.

I'm not saying it's right just maybe it's a bigger deal than I thought.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Alliance GAIN North Down from Independent (ex-UUP)


----------



## strung out (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour gain Putney


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservative hold Southport


----------



## Ground Elder (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> I'm not saying it's right just maybe it's a bigger deal than I thought.


  first laugh I've had since 10 pm


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Ground Elder said:


> first laugh I've had since 10 pm


At me not with me I presume.

I'm only laughing because if I didn't laugh I'd cry.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> I don't think, living in an affluent remain constituency in the south, I really appreciated what Brexit meant to people.


What people in the metropolitan bubble didn't understand was that it was a protest vote against the establishment, the status quo, years of austerity and so on. It was a way of destroying the system and making way for something new - a clean break from the type of government we've had for the past couple of decades. People didn't want a Tory style Brexit. That's not what they were voting for. And tonight's results confirm all of this.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> What people in the metropolitan bubble didn't understand was that it was a protest vote against the establishment, the status quo, years of austerity and so on. It was a way of destroying the system and making way for something new - a clean break from the type of government we've had for the past couple of decades. People didn't want a Tory style Brexit. That's not what they were voting for. And tonight's results confirm all of this.


I appreciate people vote Brexit because they're so angry with the establishment, I just find it a little ironic that's returning BJ a massive majority.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Alliance GAIN North Down from Independent (ex-UUP)



Beat the DUP scum by over 3000.


----------



## Quote (Dec 13, 2019)

Just seat after seat of people who’ve been fucked by the Tories and austerity going out and voting Tory.


----------



## oryx (Dec 13, 2019)

Ken Livingstone, quoted on BBC, WTF?

I used to admire and like Livingstone when he was London mayor and previously GLC leader.

His clumsy and ill thought out comments on radio a few years ago earned him a name as an anti-Semite and a ban from the LP. Now he's criticising the way Corbyn handled AS.

Yeah Ken, his job would have been easier if it hadn't been for you blathering controversial stuff over the airwaves sounding like you were pissed.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Rochdale
Labour hold Wigan
Conservative GAIN Leigh from Labour


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Islwyn
Labour hold Barnsley East


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> What people in the metropolitan bubble didn't understand was that it was a protest vote against the establishment, the status quo, years of austerity and so on. It was a way of destroying the system and making way for something new - a clean break from the type of government we've had for the past couple of decades. People didn't want a Tory style Brexit. That's not what they were voting for. And tonight's results confirm all of this.


I know you are being sarcastic but it does. It increasingly looks more and more like  Labour votes going to the brexit party is a large factor driving this result.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour only just holding onto Stockton north!


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

Fuck me these former Labour votes gone Tory in BBC. Just shot them the thick cunts.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> I know you are being sarcastic but it does. It increasingly looks more and more like  Labour votes going to the brexit party is a large factor driving this result.


The Brexit party with their lexity Brexit aims, proposals to abolish inheritance tax and so on.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> The Brexit party with their lexity Brexit aims, proposals to abolish inheritance tax and so on.


I don't expect you to understand it's clearly much to complicated for you.


----------



## oryx (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> I know you are being sarcastic but it does. It increasingly looks more and more like  Labour votes going to the brexit party is a large factor driving this result.



I don't think teuchter was being sarcastic.

Where I think they are wrong is about people in a so-called metropolitan bubble. I think they do see the protest vote thing, and despair about the lack of attention paid to the reasons behind the protest vote.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> What people in the metropolitan bubble didn't understand was that it was a protest vote against the establishment, the status quo, years of austerity and so on. It was a way of destroying the system and making way for something new - a clean break from the type of government we've had for the past couple of decades. People didn't want a Tory style Brexit. That's not what they were voting for. And tonight's results confirm all of this.



Yeah, this’ll fix that austerity thing.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, I agree. And I wanted Labour to really push the Green New Deal this time as the one big idea from which everything else would then hang. That gives the whole programme an overarching point and necessity. I was encouraged by the bits they did, but I wanted them to fall full-square behind it.



I can see the point to that, but I think it would also have suffered from some disconnect too, because of the rather superficial and gimmicky, low-hanging fruit way the mainstream have handled this topic so far, and various forms of denial about the ramifications and the things people might have to give up (and not much promotion of the gains). But then I would say that because I'm a long time bore on this forum about joining environmental and climate issues with energy issues and a whole bunch of other political and economic stuff. And I also like to bore on about the strange ideological voids that formed in the wake of the financial/banking crisis. The Corbyn socialism thing could have benefitted more from broader attempts to fill that void with something, rather than containing the banking crisis in a special silo, too hot to handle, too big to fail. So we get incomplete stories where austerity in general is attacked, but thats not joined up to stories of the financial crisis and whatever crisis of capitalism it might have represented.

Anyway I am good at bleating on about that sort of thing, but I dont offer anything detailed to fill the void or build upon, and most of my strategies involve contexts that have not shown signs of properly emerging, such as various shocks that give the word unsustainable its teeth back, jolt peoples sense of what can, should or must be done, the future, the fragility of our current ways of doing things, etc.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservative GAIN Clwyd South from Labour.


----------



## N_igma (Dec 13, 2019)

If projections are correct there could be more Nationalist than Unionist MPs for the first time. 

DUP - 8
Sinn Fein - 7
SDLP - 2
Alliance - 1 

North Belfast going to Sinn Fein will be a milestone. Can’t wait to see Dodds’ face if it happens.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, this’ll fix that austerity thing.


Boris will Get Austerity Fixed.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Blackpool South


----------



## stolinski (Dec 13, 2019)

i'm pingponging between youtube streams, it keeps it quite interesting although farage keeps on popping up and generally it's looking like pretty bad news


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

I would not claim to have expected tonights result, but I seem to be much less surprised about it than many are. I'm surprised at how surprised people are.

I guess Corbyns better than expected 2017 performance may be part of the reason. Then not taking account that something that existed in 2017 had drained away. Combined with some not taking great enough account of what the Brexit partys decisions on where to stand might mean, or not realising quite how much of a disaster waiting to happen Labours Brexit stance had become?


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Sinn Fein HOLD West Tyrone


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 13, 2019)

What time do Floppy Johnson and Raab C Brexit get their marching orders? Is it worth staying up for?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

elbows said:


> I would not claim to have expected tonights result, but I seem to be much less surprised about it than many are. I'm surprised at how surprised people are.
> 
> I guess Corbyns better than expected 2017 performance may be part of the reason. Then not taking account that something that existed in 2017 had drained away. Combined with some not taking great enough account of what the Brexit partys decisions on where to stand might mean, or not realising quite how much of a disaster waiting to happen Labours Brexit stance had become?



I was expecting a Tory win of around 30-40, so I am somewhat surprised that it could be 80+.


----------



## Beermoth (Dec 13, 2019)

Fuck it. Electoral politics is dead.

It's us vs. them.


----------



## Beermoth (Dec 13, 2019)

This is a complete nightmare.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

PC hold Dwyfor Meirionnydd
Labour hold Ogmore
SNP hold Lanark and Hamilton East
Conservative hold Rochford and Southend East
Conservative hold Harrogate and Knaresborough
SNP hold Kilmarnock and Loudoun


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Five years of Kuenssberg fawning over that piggy eyed toff cunt like he's Xi Jin fucking Ping to come god I want to kill myself*.

*I am in no way a suicide risk I just can't find any other language strong enough.


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Nuneaton CON hold, majority up from under 5k to over 13k, this was a Labour seat during the 90's & up to 2010.



There will have been a big leave vote in Nuneaton (I was brought up there)


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 13, 2019)

Dunked-in-Shit is back, so rest easy Urbanites


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Dunked-in-Shit is back, so rest easy Urbanites


FUUUUUCCCKKKK. Hope is dead.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Chingford and Woodford Green held by Conservative, IDS is back.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Jo Swinson losing her seat is going to be the dampest of damp squibs.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 13, 2019)

Swing to the LibDems! Congratulations to local voters!


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I was expecting a Tory win of around 30-40, so I am somewhat surprised that it could be 80+.



I made no attempt to do any actual numbers, so maybe thats why Im not as surprised, I sort of cheated by not thinking about it in these terms ahead of time. I think it was just filed in my mind as one strongly possible eventuality, of 'Johnson romps away with it'. But I had some other outcomes in mind as plausible too, such as Labour sort of doing a repeat of 2017 or some variation on that theme. I had a 'hatred towards Johnson changes the picture' eventuality in mind too, but I had trouble buying into that one much given how some people love leaders with awful attributes, and how it would likely be cancelled out by 'hatret towards Corbyn' anyway.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

BBC reporting that SF has gained North Belfast.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Wolverhampton North East


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Scunthorpe


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> BBC reporting that SF has gained North Belfast.



They are reporting 'may have' taken it, seeing Nigel Dodd gone would be a bonus for me.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

lizzieloo said:


> There will have been a big leave vote in Nuneaton (I was brought up there)



I doubt you'll be surprised to learn that anti-Corbyn sentiments found a home here as well as the leave stuff (66% leave in the referendum)


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Redcar


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> BBC reporting that SF has gained North Belfast.


Republican gain in NI overall, now Republican majority I think they are saying. I'm not up enough on NI to really know what this means.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Zac Goldsmith reported as out. I'm taking what I can get.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Preston


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Burnley.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives hold Blackpool North and Cleveleys.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Who is this twat?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

.


Ted Striker said:


> Zac Goldsmith reported as out. I'm taking what I can get.


We'll be taking any crumbs we can for the foreseeable


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

BBC.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

About 150 seats declared so far, Labour has lost 15, 11 to the Tories & 4 to the SNP. 

Conservatives take Labour seats in early results


----------



## N_igma (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Republican gain in NI overall, now Republican majority I think they are saying. I'm not up enough on NI to really know what this means.



It means there are more MPs who are in parties who want to take Northern Ireland out of the UK and join in a United Ireland than MPs in parties who want to stay in the UK.

The only possible silver lining of this election for me is the eventual break up of the UK and a United Ireland.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

Tories cleaning up in the north/midlands, Labour making a few gains in the south. It's mainly brexit-driven imo.

I think the vast majority of people are barely engaged in politics tbh, unlike most of us on this thread. Many don't seem to care or even know about the detail. "Get brexit done" was a simple proposition and that was clearly enough for many people to vote on. The labour manifesto barely seemed to matter. People like many of the policies, but basically people want brexit above all else. The tories and the establishment have done a proper job on it to be fair: focus on brexit, denigrate Corbyn, job done. Fuck it's depressing.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Labour hold Preston





PR1Berske said:


> Conservatives GAIN Burnley.





PR1Berske said:


> Conservatives hold Blackpool North and Cleveleys.



Are we going to have to sit through 600-odd of these posts?


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Conservatives GAIN Redcar



Look at the swings there.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Tories cleaning up in the north/midlands, Labour making a few gains in the south. It's mainly brexit-driven imo.
> 
> I think the vast majority of people are barely engaged in politics tbh, unlike most of us on this thread. Many don't seem to care about the detail. "Get brexit done" was a simple proposition and that was clearly enough for many people to vote on. The labour manifesto barely seemed to matter. People like many of the policies, but basically people want brexit above all else. The tories and the establishment have done a proper job on it to be fair: focus on brexit, denigrate Corbyn, job done. Fuck it's depressing.


Like-not-like.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Ynys Mon 
Conservatives GAIN Bishop Auckland


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Are we going to have to sit through 600-odd of these posts?


I'm finding it quite helpful as I'm trying to post on here, knit and watch the tv and I'm missing quite a bit.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> I'm finding it quite helpful as I'm trying to post on here, knit and watch the tv and I'm missing quite a bit.


Also I'm a bit drunk.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> I'm finding it quite helpful as I'm trying to post on here, knit and watch the tv and I'm missing quite a bit.



I was thinking about watching Emmerdale and keeping my eye on PR1Berske . Not as productive I grant you, but I can't knit for shit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Shrek Javid looking very smug.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 13, 2019)

Ynys Mon has just elected a fly in from Kensington who has consistently slagged off the Welsh language. Of course, the combined Labour and Plaid vote would have seen her off.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

This is so shit.

I think we've won the moral victory though.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Nige has gone for the dup


----------



## tim (Dec 13, 2019)

lizzieloo said:


> There will have been a big leave vote in Nuneaton (I was brought up there)


And you left


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Are we going to have to sit through 600-odd of these posts?



Why not? The posts are informative.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

SNP holds Airdrie and Shotts
Conservative GAIN Wakefield
Conservative GAIN Eastbourne


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Nige has gone for the dup


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservative GAIN Heywood and Middleton
Conservative hold Hornchurch and Upminster
Conservative hold Watford


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


>


----------



## tim (Dec 13, 2019)

Sadly, the BBC hasn't lost Jeremy Vine.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)




----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Trying desperately to pluck some, erm, positives...

Tonight's result is where we thought 2017 would turn up, no? If not  on the night (when the support rallied, and TM fucked it dodging interviews and the elderly care decision...), bit certainly just after TM announced the election, Labour looked on their knees.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives hold Cities of London and Westminster


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Chuka cant.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Doncaster North - Ed Miliband returned.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Birkenhead - Frank Field fails to "gain" seat as an independent.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Conservatives hold Cities of London and Westminster



Goodbye Chuka Umunna, you cunt.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Goodbye Chuka Umunna, you cunt.


You're celebrating a Conservative victory then.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

PC hold Carmarthen East & Dinefwr
Conservative hold Wyre Forest
DUP hold East Londonderry


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN West Bromwich East


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> You're celebrating a Conservative victory then.



I am celebrating Chuka Umunna losing, you clown.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

So the forecast majority has been revised from eighty-something to sixty-something.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Neath.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> So the forecast majority has been revised from eighty-something to sixty-something.


I suspect that must be Scotland, where the exit poll didn't really cover.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Hyndburn.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> You're celebrating a Conservative victory then.


Tbf, I know nothing about the Tory candidate, but they're unlikely to be meaningfully more Tory.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold West Lancashire
Conservatives GAIN Bridgend.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

good to see the traitor chuka gone. hopefully we're replacing him in streatham with a decent left winger in Bel Ribero-Addy.

Have any of the tiggers got a seat?


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Walsall South
Labour hold City of Durham


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Walsall South
Labour hold City of Durham


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> So the forecast majority has been revised from eighty-something to sixty-something.



The comeback is ON


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Have any of the tiggers got a seat?



Don't be silly.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

Zak racist Goldsmith gone

(and his ridiculous hammersmith bridge as well, hopefully)


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

.


Ted Striker said:


> The comeback is ON


I'm still hopeful 
Why am I laughing . Oh yeh, sauvignon blanc.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservative hold Bury St Edmunds
Labour hold Durham North


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Zac Goldsmith reported as out. I'm taking what I can get.



Confirmed


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Have any of the tiggers got a seat?



Or ex Tory Indy's?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

79% turnout in Zak Goldsmith's seat 

he got 26,000 votes and still lost by 8,000. 

some northern seats are being won with 16,000 votes


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Liberal Democrats GAINS Richmond Park
Liberal Democrats hold Kingston and Surbiton


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservative hold Staffordshire Moorlands
Conservatives GAIN High Peak


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

Corbyn's middle name is Bernard. That's cheered me up a bit.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Canterbury
Labour hold Islington North - Jeremy Corbyn back in


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

In order to survive the night I was just looking at a results feed on twitter till now, and only just switched to watching some of the tv coverage instead. Just in time to see Zac Goldsmith out.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Corbyn's middle name is Bernard. That's cheered me up a bit.



Yes this was news to me too.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Corbyn has won it


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Liberal Democrats hold Westmorland and Lonsdale
Liberal Democrats hold Bath
Liberal Democrats hold Twickenham
Conservatives GAIN Barrowand Furness


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Bolton North East


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

The grinning twat from the Monster Raving Loony Party, standing behind Corbyn & towering above him.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

Whatever you think about Corbyn, he's a decent man. Tbh what he's had to put up with is disgraceful. And we have a cunt like BJ as PM. I hope JC gets to chill out a bit on his allotment now.


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 13, 2019)

Big win for SNP in Stirling


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Delyn


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Corbyn: "I will lead the party during a discussion and reflection and as we move into the future"


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Corbyn just announced he will not be leading the party into another GE.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Hampstead and Kilburn
Labour hold Vauxhall.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Good speech from Corbyn.


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

By the way, not sure if it was already mentioned here earlier but George Galloway got 489 votes in West Brom East.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Good speech from Corbyn.


He had a bit of bother wrapping it up at the end though.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2019)

Apparently in Bury South the candidates are being asked to agree on what spoiled ballots represent.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Labour hold Vauxhall.


kate hoey replaced by Flo Eshalomi, another progress/right wing labour bod from the lambeth/steve reed group


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

Caroline Flint's lost her seat


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Caroline Flint gone.

Tory maj. 3,630, Brexit Party took over 6000 votes - been Labour since 1922!


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

Sedgefield.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Liberal Democrats GAIN Fife North East
Conservatives GAIN Sedgefield (ex-Tony Blair)
Conservatives GAIN Great Grimsby


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

Raabs survival in Esher & Walton.


CON majority:2,743
Turnout up 3.8%


----------



## tim (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Trying desperately to pluck some, erm, positives...
> 
> Tonight's result is where we thought 2017 would turn up, no? If not  on the night (when the support rallied, and TM fucked it dodging interviews and the elderly care decision...), bit certainly just after TM announced the election, Labour looked on their knees.


Carolyn Flint has just been kicked out. That's kind of positive, if we're going to have a Tory majority anyway.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

elbows said:


> Sedgefield.
> 
> View attachment 192841



Looks like more evidence that the Brexit Party has been mopping-up Labour leave voters, that couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives gain Bury South. Fuck.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Johnson up now, wins on an increased maj.

Lord Buckethead beats Count Binface, 125 to 69.


----------



## stolinski (Dec 13, 2019)

damn boris survived


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

8 for Elmo


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Penistone and Stocksbridge
SNP hold Motherwell and Wishaw
Conservatives hold Totnes
Conservatives hold Belxleyheath and Crayford
Labour hold Bristol North West
Labour hold Leeds West


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Commonly known as intergalactic...


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

*Please Elmo put your head on his*


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

You lying c***.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Sorry but the brass neck of the man.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

SDLP GAIN Foyle


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Swinson!


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

He just f***ing lies.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Brighton Kemptown


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

"500000 new nurses, 40 new hospitals". I DON'T THINK SO.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives hold Maidenhead - Theresa May is returned.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Swinson!


Is she gone? Good stuff.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

See ya swinson


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Swinson next PM?


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

SNP GAINS East Dunbartonshire - Jo Swinson loses seat.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Swinson gone!


----------



## danny la rouge (Dec 13, 2019)

Swinson out


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Gone! 150 votes!


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Small mercies.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Is she gone? Good stuff.


Only 144 votes in it . So sad


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN North West Durham - Laura Pidcock is out of the Commons.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

Ha ha ha....,Swinson


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

'Kinell. I don't take the same joy at Lib Dems downfall, but that's nuts for a party leader.


----------



## neonwilderness (Dec 13, 2019)

A very small silver lining


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Only 144 votes in it . So sad



80% turnout.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

weepiper was right, 80% turn-out!


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Only 144 votes in it . So sad


Oh dear. How sad.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

I guess she definitely wont be propping up a Corbyn govt now


----------



## stolinski (Dec 13, 2019)

Fight breaks out between rival parties at John McDonnell count | Metro News


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour holds Leeds North West
Conservative holds Derbyshire Dales
Labour holds Oldham East and Saddleworth


----------



## binka (Dec 13, 2019)

I'm glad she's gone but it's difficult to be too happy about anything tonight


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

Terrible result all said, but there’s been a great clear out of many of the utter cunts we’ve been complaining about here in recent years

good night all. The fight starts again tomorrow x


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

There's literally nobody at Jo Swinson's count? There were more people at my mate's wedding and he had it in the middle smallest room of the registry office


----------



## tim (Dec 13, 2019)

binka said:


> I'm glad she's gone but it's difficult to be too happy about anything tonight


St Albans has gone Liberal.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> 'Kinell. I don't take the same joy at Lib Dems downfall, but that's nuts for a party leader.


I do. Bunch of lying pricks.


----------



## neonwilderness (Dec 13, 2019)

Laura Pidcock is gone


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Liberal Democrats GAIN St Albans.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> Laura Pidcock is gone


Nooooooo


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> 'Kinell. I don't take the same joy at Lib Dems downfall, but that's nuts for a party leader.


Sturgeon, on the other hand...


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Salford and Eccles - Rebecca Long-Bailey back in.


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 13, 2019)

tim said:


> And you left



As soon as I could


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Everytime I've voted I was the only one in there (north west Durham) will see in about an hour?
> Laura pidcock and usually a safe seat. However my friend was up from Liverpool and we went to the pub next to where the polling station is and the pub was rammed with Tories. I only know this because as we were playing pool we were discussing Corbyn and people were standing up shouting at us! Proper red faced fuckers .
> One bloke said the Tories saved his life because, 'if the prison system was softer he would've ended up back inside '
> The poverty in surrounding old pit villages is awful and yet they still love the cunts
> ...


I fucking knew it.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives hold Brecon and Radnorshire.
Labour holds Old Southwark and Bermondsey


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Sturgeon, on the other hand...



FUCKETY BYE.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

lizzieloo said:


> As soon as I could


I'm thinking the same now. Surrounded by fucking Tories .


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour holds Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford - Yvette Cooper returns.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> Laura Pidcock is gone


How much did she lose by?


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

How is Michael Gove anything but a total fucking liability for the Conservatives?


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

The world is a messed up place.


----------



## Part-timah (Dec 13, 2019)

Good night in the 6 counties at least.


----------



## neonwilderness (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> How much did she lose by?


Just over 1k


----------



## binka (Dec 13, 2019)

Alastair Campbell, Toby Young, Piers Corbyn and Rachel Johnson on C4. They are spoiling us


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

binka said:


> Alastair Campbell, Toby Young, Piers Corbyn and Rachel Johnson on C4. They are spoiling us


Is it worth turning over?


----------



## wiskey (Dec 13, 2019)

Glad I didn't stay up tbh


----------



## binka (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Is it worth turning over?


Yeah why not, can't get any worse


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> How is Michael Gove anything but a total fucking liability for the Conservatives?



He's a very polished performer (as well as a rubber faced cunt). The way he turned around Boris not turning up to the debate was annoyingly well handled.

Ffs tho...Look at that front bench. It really is the elite of the elite of dickheads. Literally THE n worst people are called in. Quite an achievement. The efficiency at how they've built a cabinet of not just dickheads, but the nadir of the worst shitcunts. I genuinely wouldn't swap any of them out. Maybe Mark Francois (tho has comedy value) and David Davis. Oh, IDS too


----------



## binka (Dec 13, 2019)

And they've brought Tom Watson back on now, judge rinder really seals the deal


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> Just over 1k


Shite. I worked in a shop in Langley park, and people were coming in with bags of 2p's to buy a loaf. The library is open one day a week and still these cunts get in 
I can't convey how fucked off and upset I am.


----------



## neonwilderness (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Shite. I worked in a shop in Langley park, and people were coming in with bags of 2p's to buy a loaf. The library is open one day a week and still these cunts get in
> I can't convey how fucked off and upset I am.


I was at the count for Gateshead and Blaydon (thankfully both Labour holds) and it was depressing to see the number of Tory votes


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

C'mon Caroline!


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Caroline Lucas


----------



## Part-timah (Dec 13, 2019)

Fuck, Hastings stays Tory


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

As it stands:

Con - 250 (+34)
Lab - 167 (-46)


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

SNP holds Na h-Eileanan an Iar


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> I was at the count for Gateshead and Blaydon (thankfully both Labour holds) and it was depressing to see the number of Tory votes


Liked for the labour hold. Durham can officially fuck off.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

I've definitely drunk too much wine because I'm getting a bit weepy* at her speech.

*no actual tears shed.


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Green holds Brighton Pavilion.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Guy on ITV asking Ruth Davison were Jeremy Corbyn went wrong! Wtf!


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Conservatives GAIN Stoke-on-Trent North
Conservatives GAIN Stoke-on-Trent Central
Conservatives hold Morecambe and Lunesdale
Conservatives GAIN Kensington


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> C'mon Caroline!



You taking the piss??


----------



## PR1Berske (Dec 13, 2019)

Labour hold Lancaster and Fleetwood


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Looking forward to 5 years of Yes/No tennis, with Sturgeon repeatedly asking for a indyref and Boris not even remotely considering it.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 13, 2019)

PR1Berske said:


> Green holds Brighton Pavilion.



ffs


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2019)

Gapes lost 40000 votes.


----------



## stolinski (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Guy on ITV asking Ruth Davison were Jeremy Corbyn went wrong! Wtf!


dear ruth is one of a growing number of commentators i don't want to hear any more from


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Guy on ITV asking Ruth Davison were Jeremy Corbyn went wrong! Wtf!



Fair play to Ruth Davison. Single handedly carried Tories north of the border (and seemed fairly human)


----------



## stolinski (Dec 13, 2019)

right now the SNP has 1,013,852 votes and 42 seats, whilst the liberal democrats have 2,868,230 votes and 7 seats


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You taking the piss??


Why not? Genuinely interested.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> and seemed fairly human


. Is that sarcasm (I've had a few tbf)


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2019)

Chris Williamson 635. Still can't believe Bastani and co tried to make him a star.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Richard Burgon gone


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Finding strange pleasure from the 4am interviews whilst the chairs are getting stacked in the background.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Richard Burgon gone


No he's not. Leeds East (UK Parliament constituency) - Wikipedia


----------



## 8115 (Dec 13, 2019)

Skinner has lost his seat.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> No he's not. Leeds East (UK Parliament constituency) - Wikipedia



Ah, I was misinformed.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Skinner has lost his seat.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> Skinner has lost his seat.


That's really grim


----------



## hipipol (Dec 13, 2019)

KIn ell,its awful


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

And Jo Swinson gone. How very interesting for the LibDems.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Fair play to Ruth Davison. Single handedly carried Tories north of the border (and seemed fairly human)


Describe, please, the ways in which Ruth Davidson's politics make her seem fairly human.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> And Jo Swinson gone. How very interesting for the LibDems.


Put the kettle on celyn. I'm moving to Scotland


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Describe, please, the ways in which Ruth Davidson's politics make her seem fairly human.


I've already asked that. He's gone a bit shy.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> And Jo Swinson gone. How very interesting for the LibDems.


And how very amusing for the rest of us.


----------



## kage (Dec 13, 2019)

It took me tonight to finally get back to facebook and really tell some deserveds how much I think that they're utter cunts. 

At least there was some catharsis


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Describe, please, the ways in which Ruth Davidson's politics make her seem fairly human.



I don't know- obvs there's that inner Tory evilness, but I thought she stood out as coming across as relatively (cf Tories) 'normal'. And her single woman impact in Scotland was remarkable.

I knew little about her politics, TBF


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Fair play to Ruth Davison. Single handedly carried Tories north of the border (and seemed fairly human)



No, she was a lying sack of shit and the media in England loved her.


----------



## hipipol (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> Fair play to Ruth Davison. Single handedly carried Tories north of the border (and seemed fairly human)


You mean she gave birth to an apparently human child as opposed to a demon, its a start I suppose


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

Half-human. Davidson's partner is in the SNP.

Edit. This is lies, damned lies! She's not in the SNP,  but will be holding Davidson's cloths by the loch when she does her skinny dip.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Put the kettle on celyn. I'm moving to Scotland


Will do.   A thousand welcomes in advance. I might need a bigger kettle.


----------



## Ted Striker (Dec 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> No, she was a lying sack of shit and the media in England loved her.



Fair enough. It's not a particularly strong opinion of mine


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

Which is how the liberal media slotted her into your brain. Easily digestible.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Will do.   A thousand welcomes in advance. I might need a bigger kettle.


A tea urn might be appropriate . Brushing up on my Scottish


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Half-human. Davidson's partner is in the SNP.


Never knew that. Everyday a school day an all that.


----------



## hipipol (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> A tea urn might be appropriate . Brushing up on my Scottish








Get in practice, keep yer strength up


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

Ted Striker said:


> I don't know- obvs there's that inner Tory evilness, but I thought she stood out as coming across as relatively (cf Tories) 'normal'. And her single woman impact in Scotland was remarkable.
> 
> I knew little about her politics, TBF


O Good Grief!      Where to start?   You have said that you know nothing about her but that she stood out as 





> relatively (cf Tories) 'normal'.



In what ways was she "normal" ? Tell me which of her policies you liked or disliked.


> And her single woman impact in Scotland was remarkable.


Oh. Really.    Are you sure about that? I should have thought, really, that Nicola Sturgeon's single woman impact was rather more important, (or if you prefer, "remarkable").


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

hipipol said:


> Get in practice, keep yer strength up


What in god's name is that !
Re thinks move


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> No, she was a lying sack of shit and the media in England loved her.


I'm sorry, but with all due respect, Poi E, I feel I must disagree. You say that she was "a lying sack of shit ...", but I think you might be mistaken. Surely you mean that she IS a lying sack of shit.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> What in god's name is that !
> Re thinks move


It's a Scottish mutton pie (or just scotch pie, or just pie) and is the loveliest pie in piedom. Mash and brown sauce required obviously.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Half-human. Davidson's partner is in the SNP.


Is she? That seems not be to be public knowledge at all. Are you quite sure that Jen Wilson is an SNP member? It is quite strange that this is not known to any news sites so far. Sell the story, then, Poi E .  Go on.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

maomao said:


> It's a Scottish mutton pie (or just scotch pie, or just pie) and is the loveliest pie in piedom. Mash and brown sauce required obviously.


Mutton, how lovely. I'm sure brown sauce makes it all the more lovely


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

8115 said:


> The world is a messed up place.


I like your very original thinking here. Have you thought of writing a song about it?


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> I like your very original thinking here. Have you thought of writing a song about it?


Cold play have already covered it


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Is she? That seems not be to be public knowledge at all. Are you quite sure that Jen Wilson is an SNP member? It is quite strange that this is not known to any news sites so far. Sell the story, then, Poi E .  Go on.


 Hah! Whoops, 5 in the morning posting. My mistake!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Jesus, this is quite bad.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Dec 13, 2019)

Just as I thought but worse than expected. I've never felt so utterly out of step with the country I live in. Makes me consider even more getting my Aussie visa application in and fucking off there.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> Never knew that. Everyday a school day an all that.


Well, I don't think *anybody* ever knew that. Apart from Poi E. It is news to the rest of the world. Of course it *might* be true.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Just as I thought but worse than expected. I've never felt so utterly out of step with the country I live in. Makes me consider even more getting my Aussie visa application in and fucking off there.



Australias even more fash sadly.

NZ is nice though.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Just as I thought but worse than expected. I've never felt so utterly out of step with the country I live in. Makes me consider even more getting my Aussie visa application in and fucking off there.


Morrison and the LNP are to the right of Johnson and the Conservatives. And the ALP is well to the right of the LP.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 13, 2019)

Anyone know why the BBC is showing 358-203 but Guardian says 359-202?

Edit - because Guardian is wrong as usual.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

I feel like I'm going to cry. How the fuck is there a Tory majority.

I think I will have to look for a new job that takes me back north of the border.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

I know it's a bloody depressing morning but a lot of posters have a very peculiar view of the rest of the world - in France the two main parties are a bunch of socially liberal admirers of Thatcher and a far right group. In Germany the CDU have been in power for 10 years and a hard right party are polling second, ok in Italy you currently have a centre-left/populist coalition but you'd be daft not to put money on La Lega leading a government shortly, etc


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Dec 13, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Australias even more fash sadly.
> 
> NZ is nice though.


My very, very long term plan is to get to Aussie on the visa I can get as a route to NZ.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I feel like I'm going to cry. How the fuck is there a Tory majority.
> 
> I think I will have to look for a new job that takes me back north of the border.


Have you moved south then EG, didn't know that.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

And contrary to popular belief there are loads of cats in Scotland and the streets aren’t paved with cheese.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Morrison and the LNP are to the right of Johnson and the Conservatives. And the ALP is well to the right of the LP.


Yeah I know but at least in Aussie I can be out of step with the politics in nice weather and not surrounded by millions of miserable people


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Yeah I know but at least in Aussie I can be out of step with the politics in nice weather and not surrounded my millions of miserable people


Well that's true. I'd move back there if I got the chance.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Yeah I know but at least in Aussie I can be out of step with the politics in nice weather and not surrounded by millions of miserable people



Merely thousands


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I feel like I'm going to cry. How the fuck is there a Tory majority.
> Pricks ? Just a guess like.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Half-human. Davidson's partner is in the SNP.
> 
> Edit. This is lies, damned lies! She's not in the SNP,  but will be holding Davidson's cloths by the loch when she does her skinny dip.


 Right, so Ruth Davidson's partner, indeed wife by now I think, (although I seem to recall Ruth Davidson having some reservations about same sex marriages at one point) is now, according to you not in the SNP and it was lies.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics, then?   Who was telling the lies?

I wonder whether you might have become a tiny wee bit confused between Ruth Davidson (Tory) and Kezia Dugdale (Labour therefore not quite a Tory) and the latter's partner Jenny Gilruth who is indeed an SNP MSP. 

Tory, Scottish Labour, easy mistake to make, really. Anybody could do it.


----------



## hipipol (Dec 13, 2019)

Calamity1971 said:


> What in god's name is that !
> Re thinks move


Scotch pie, gae ye strength,
ken?


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

stolinski said:


> right now the SNP has 1,013,852 votes and 42 seats, whilst the liberal democrats have 2,868,230 votes and 7 seats


Oh dear. Better to have a different system, one better than this old FPTP thing then?


----------



## PursuedByBears (Dec 13, 2019)

Brexit won it for the Tories.
Corbyn lost it for Labour


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Oh dear. Better to have a different system, one better than this old FPTP thing then?


SCOTLAND SHOULD ONLY BE ALLOWED 2 SEATS


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Have you moved south then EG, didn't know that.


I'm working down south half the time, and living with my brother and his family when I'm down. They're pissed off as well.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> SCOTLAND SHOULD ONLY BE ALLOWED 2 SEATS


You're just annoyed we have another party to vote for. I did postal vote for this election.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

moochedit said:


> says my seat coventry south likely to stay labour but coventry north west has 64% chance of going tory .



Just woke up. Well all all 3 cov seats stayed labour but south and north west were fucking close. Jesus i bet that means even more tory leaflets and phone calls next time.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

Where have all these Tory voters come from?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> You're just annoyed we have another party to vote for. I did postal vote for this election.


I didn’t realise I’d been kicked out of Scotland for not voting SNP with enough fervour, fuuuck.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Where have all these Tory voters come from?



They never left.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I didn’t realise I’d been kicked out of Scotland for not voting SNP with enough fervour, fuuuck.


You haven't don't worry. It was my fault - I assumed you were in englandshire.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)




----------



## a_chap (Dec 13, 2019)

On a lighter note, at least the odious Mike Gapes got well and truly stuffed.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

At least we know what all those massive queues were.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

All the lights were on at Caroline Flint’s when I passed at 6:30.
Maybe packing up and leaving!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> At least we know what all those massive queues were.



Safe Labour seats.


----------



## Casual Observer (Dec 13, 2019)

Haven't watched any of the coverage since 11.30 last night. Will catch up in minute but presumably  Jo Swinson is now on her way to visit the Queen to ask for permission to form a new government.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

For the first time ever I have a tory MP.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

PursuedByBears said:


> Brexit won it for the Tories.
> Corbyn lost it for Labour


No I'm sorry but that's too simplistic. It ignores the points The39thStep made


The39thStep said:


> You won't find a more left person in the HofC than Dennis Skinner but I'll be very surprised if he keeps his seat, I hope he does. Will he lose it because he's too left wing?No he'll lose it mainly because of Labours position on Brexit and secondly because even before that many w/class voters in his and many areas no longer saw Labour as their party. No amount of good but late economic policies , no amount of election time tweets or facebook ads can make up for the fact they've done f all in many of those communities for decades and whether remainers like it or lump it Labour areas  areas that voted for leave expected Labour nationally to support the referendum result. As I said its a heady mix but to me thats the biggest innluence and prob the tipping point.


This result is a combination of 30+ years of neglect, neglect highlighted by the decision to not make any significant appeal to voters that were traditionally Labour but wanted to leave the EU.


----------



## JimW (Dec 13, 2019)

Drew lost by more than 4,000 in Stroud to some parachuted in candidate who still doesn't live in the constiuency. Shite.


----------



## wiskey (Dec 13, 2019)

Bristol is still a red island in a blue sea (well done Bristol NW) ... I really think it's time we declared independence.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> Ok, where was the national mass demo against UC?


Check down the back of your sofa - perhaps it fell down there the last time you were wringing your hands...


----------



## Lorca (Dec 13, 2019)

Jess Phillips and Emily Thornbury both appear to be throwing their hats in the ring lol, but Sir Keir Starmer the favourite according to the mirror.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

Urgh, 3 wastes of space.

Starmer and Thornberry who's push towards an outright Remain stance was a key factor in losing a shot load of Labour heartlands. Great strategy that.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 13, 2019)

Jess Philips would be an awesome Labour leader.  She’s so down to earth and effective at communicating with the public. Funny too, which helps.


----------



## Ming (Dec 13, 2019)

Still. At least a rejection of the vile EU will create a political space and foment anger which will... (drone)...


----------



## wiskey (Dec 13, 2019)

Kier starmer should have led into this election


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Jess Philips would be an awesome Labour leader.  She’s so down to earth and effective at communicating with the public. Funny too, which helps.


Never mind her politics, eh?


wiskey said:


> Kier starmer should have led into this election


As I said his push to a more Remain position was a key factor is losing seats like Bolsover and Sedgefield. How would a LP led by him have done better?


----------



## wiskey (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Never mind her politics, eh?
> As I said his push to a more Remain position was a key factor is losing seats like Bolsover and Sedgefield. How would a LP led by him have done better?



People who voted for personalities not politics wouldn't have been pushed away by Corbyn.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Jess Philips would be an awesome Labour leader.  She’s so down to earth and effective at communicating with the public. Funny too, which helps.



Fuck off.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> People who voted for personalities not politics wouldn't have been pushed away by Corbyn.


First who are these people? If you think long time Labour voters deserted the party in 2019 because of Corbyn - after voting for a Corbyn led LP in 2017- then you are another burying you head in the sand. And the consequences of such politics are rather unpleasant, a rejection of politics as actions in favour of a politics of "personalities", the type of politics that typifies New Labour, Trudeau, Macron, etc.

Second, if you think Starmer would have appealed as a "personality" to Labour heartland seats I think you are dreaming.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 13, 2019)

Tale of three impacts on the markets in their open



Middle market clearly view Johnson tax haven as being a wonderful thing.  Upper market don’t like Sterling resurgence as they are big exporters or otherwise earn in non-GBP currencies.  Lower market a bit more of a mixed view.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> At least we know what all those massive queues were.





Artaxerxes said:


> Safe Labour seats.



Urban centres in general. Canterbury held as did Newcastle and Sunderland (both with big leave votes).


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Where have all these Tory voters come from?


Well in some cases they were Labour voters. 

Looking at the Sedgefield result for example, both the Tories *and* the Brexit Party have increased their votes (I'm comparing the BP in 2019 with UKIP in 2017). Of course some Labour voters may have stayed at home and some non-voters moved to Con/BP but the size of the decrease in the LP strongly suggest a significant amount of Lab->Con/BP movement.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 13, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Tale of three impacts on the markets in their open
> 
> View attachment 192851
> 
> Middle market clearly view Johnson tax haven as being a wonderful thing.  Upper market don’t like Sterling resurgence as they are big exporters or otherwise earn in non-GBP currencies.  Lower market a bit more of a mixed view.


Well fuck a duck


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Kier starmer should have led into this election


Not sure who but agree he should've stepped down.  From what I could see Corbyn was mortally wounded by January of this year. He took too many arrows. 2017 election was different. By 2019 they got him good


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Urban centres in general. Canterbury held as did Newcastle and Sunderland (both with big leave votes).


Vote in Newcastle was not that different to Leeds, and Sheffield, Nottingham and Birmingham all recorded higher vote shares for leave.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 13, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Jess Philips would be an awesome Labour leader.  She’s so down to earth and effective at communicating with the public. Funny too, which helps.



she could slay Johnson every week


----------



## tommers (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Kier starmer should have led into this election


Whoa. I know we're all upset but steady on.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

First time I've looked at a lot of social media during  an election,  particularly Twitter. Total echo chamber waste of time. Even Trending in the UK seemed echo chambered up.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 13, 2019)

alex_ said:


> she could slay Johnson every week



Exactly. We’ve already seen her take him apart in PMQs. What Labour really needs now is a leader who the public can warm to and who can expose Boris’s lies.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

tommers said:


> Whoa. I know we're all upset but steady on.


Whatever you or I think he's now favourite (with the bookies)


----------



## tommers (Dec 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Whatever you or I think he's now favourite (with the bookies)


Could not give a fuck. Can't wait for a labour party that abstain from welfare votes again. Yes, move them to the right, same as every other part of this fucking godforsaken island.


----------



## Edie (Dec 13, 2019)

Predictable but depressing. Labour just don’t get it. You can offer the world on a stick but unless you actually fucking _listen_ to people it’s utterly pointless


----------



## alex_ (Dec 13, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Exactly. We’ve already seen her take him apart in PMQs. What Labour really needs now is a leader who the public can warm to and who can expose Boris’s lies.



It’s only downhill from here for the tories - they have to own their mess and can’t blame anyone else.

they are going to be disappointing a lot of their voters from here on whatever happens 

Alex


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Urgh, 3 wastes of space.
> 
> Starmer and Thornberry who's push towards an outright Remain stance was a key factor in losing a shot load of Labour heartlands. Great strategy that.



McDonnell provided the Judas kiss. He left Corbyn as the only one sticking to an honouring the result position after being led by Momentum into a people’s vote/remain position.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

Even if it is true someone else as leader would have done better  (which it isn't) so fucking what? What would be the point of that? It would just have been more of the fucking same. It isn't about just getting a Labour win. It is about getting a government that might at least try to slow down the rate we are sinking into shit.


----------



## tommers (Dec 13, 2019)

Chuka's writing his "can I come back" speech.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 13, 2019)

I horrible nights sleep. I honestly had hope and believed that most people were not this horrible or stupid. We have the three worst PM's in a row, each one making the last look like a saint, destroying the country over the last 10 years, and still the people fall for it. 
I have no hope left at all. I'm empty.


----------



## Poot (Dec 13, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I horrible nights sleep. I honestly had hope and believed that most people were not this horrible or stupid. We have the three worst PM's in a row, each one making the last look like a saint, destroying the country over the last 10 years, and still the people fall for it.
> I have no hope left at all. I'm empty.


Have an empathy like. I honestly believed that people were better than this.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 13, 2019)

tommers said:


> Chuka's writing his "can I come back" speech.



Do you think he's already applied to rejoin the Labour party?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 13, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I horrible nights sleep. I honestly had hope and believed that most people were not this horrible or stupid. We have the three worst PM's in a row, each one making the last look like a saint, destroying the country over the last 10 years, and still the people fall for it.
> I have no hope left at all. I'm empty.



Yep, no hope and I'm afraid to say no sympathy for when those who voted for them get absolutely shafted by them. This makes my social atomisation complete, which is of course exactly what they want.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Do you think he's already applied to rejoin the Labour party?



I would’ve thought he’d try the tories next, to complete the set.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 13, 2019)

I see Labour's pivot towards Remain has paid off.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Some spot on observations here particularly “trying to advance socialism for the working class, not with them”


Like Edie said too. 
Paul O'Connell – Why We Lost, How We Win


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 13, 2019)

Thank god I got hammered last night - don't think I could have coped with watching the fucking disaster play out through the night.  We're properly fucked. 

At least I've still got a labour MP (29k majority), and the tory cunts will own whatever disasters happen in the next five years.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 13, 2019)

Poot said:


> Have an empathy like. I honestly believed that people were better than this.


Sadly there are a large number of bastards in the country - particularly England.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

I said this on the positives thread. But lets take some solace from the fact that there  are not actually that many more people voting from the scum, and it will still be around a third of the population that voted for them. So we will save a little on bullets.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 13, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> Exactly. We’ve already seen her take him apart in PMQs. What Labour really needs now is a leader who the public can warm to and who can expose Boris’s lies.


His lies were exposed. The public didn't care.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I horrible nights sleep. I honestly had hope and believed that most people were not this horrible or stupid. We have the three worst PM's in a row, each one making the last look like a saint, destroying the country over the last 10 years, and still the people fall for it.
> I have no hope left at all. I'm empty.



England loves a drunk racist.


----------



## Ming (Dec 13, 2019)

I wonder how the UK will be in 5 years time. Snigger. Stupid Tories.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Just one seat left to declare - St Ives, because of high tide and bad weather.



> As there is a single returning officer for the islands, based on St Mary's, all ballot boxes from the smaller outer islands must be shipped to St Mary's before the results for the Isles of Scilly can be phoned into the main counting centre at Carn Brae leisure centre in Camborne.
> 
> Bad weather could see Cornish constituency being last to declare



A Tory held seat that could go to the LDs, but unlikely.


----------



## tommers (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Do you think he's already applied to rejoin the Labour party?


Wouldn't put it past him.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yep, no hope and I'm afraid to say no sympathy for when those who voted for them get absolutely shafted by them. This makes my social atomisation complete, which is of course exactly what they want.


It's a perfectly understandable reaction but it probably won't pan out like that. I felt much like that about the Brexit referendum, as did many, but in fairly short order the whole 'thick racists' sentiment got dismantled. I don't see eye to eye with many on here about the potential for the working class to produce a better future in my lifetime but I can also see that there is a more productive way to frame the narrative.


----------



## Winot (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Where have all these Tory voters come from?



The result is mainly due to a drop in Labour voters. The Tories didn’t increase their vote share by very much as far as I know. Labour voters did not turn out.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 13, 2019)

Aye, at the risk of being a "hug a racist" woolly liberal, we just lost the numbers game, _hard_; alongside all the resistance and the fighting back, we're going to have to do something to bring people over to 'our side'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

NoXion said:


> I see Labour's pivot towards Remain has paid off.


Yeh it seemed like a good idea at the time


----------



## chilango (Dec 13, 2019)

Ah well voting Labour was, erm, fun while it lasted. I guess it'll be back to having noone to vote for from now on.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> You won't find a more left person in the HofC than Dennis Skinner but I'll be very surprised if he keeps his seat, I hope he does. Will he lose it because he's too left wing?No he'll lose it mainly because of Labours position on Brexit and secondly because even before that many w/class voters in his and many areas no longer saw Labour as their party. No amount of good but late economic policies , no amount of election time tweets or facebook ads can make up for the fact they've done f all in many of those communities for decades and whether remainers like it or lump it Labour areas  areas that voted for leave expected Labour nationally to support the referendum result. As I said its a heady mix but to me thats the biggest innluence and prob the tipping point.


Fair. I agree with you on long term neglect. I don't agree so much on Brexit, which is a Tory grenade put through the window leaving no really good options.

But there will be this whole period now of self-flagellation and recrimination looking at, at most, the last few years if not just the campaign itself, and I think it's going to be really unfair: lots of people worked really hard to offer something positive, and it's not OK to write them off as should-have-done-better. That's a road that takes us to abandonment and inherent centrism.

Edit: I'm not saying you yourself are doing that, just want to be really cautious of blaming 'the left' for failing to handle a really difficult scenario


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

Winot said:


> The result is mainly due to a drop in Labour voters. The Tories didn’t increase their vote share by very much as far as I know. Labour voters did not turn out.


Or voted brexit party.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 13, 2019)

The lost Labour seats largely had lower turnouts, there was a lot of people who stayed at home yesterday. 

On the doorstep, invariably when people said they couldn't vote for Corbyn it was about Brexit. Never being hard left or anything else. Brexit. If Labour pick a new leader who wants to keep relitigating that vote it'll be a disaster. It is done. We need to start the fight for the post Brexit settlement, there'll be a lot of disillusionment coming very quickly in 2020.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 13, 2019)

Edit: posted in error.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 13, 2019)

There is still hope.

Mars One


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 13, 2019)

We’re done for a generation now. Brexit has exposed such toxic divisions there's no way out. We’ve got another 10 years of Tory rule ahead of us.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

Just looking at the result for Doncaster Central and it appears to me that if the BP hadn’t stood we too, along with Don Valley could have a Tory MP.
Winterton’s 2017 10,000+ majority cut to 2,278. BP got 6,000.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

Corbyn Shrugged.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

I wish Johnson joy of the victory, for it will turn to ashes in his mouth.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> McDonnell provided the Judas kiss. He left Corbyn as the only one sticking to an honouring the result position after being led by Momentum into a people’s vote/remain position.


McDonnell's role was more undermining than Watsons tbh


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

Winot said:


> The result is mainly due to a drop in Labour voters. The Tories didn’t increase their vote share by very much as far as I know. Labour voters did not turn out.


----------



## Rob Ray (Dec 13, 2019)

Yeesh, leftie social media replete with "the working classes are all stupid racist scumbags" today. Like guys I know you're disappointed, but blaming working class people for being too thick and mean to agree with you ain't the way.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


>


I'm not sure what evidence Winot is basing that on.

As I said for some seats the drop in the Lab vote is so large that it is very hard not to believe that there was a significant amount of Lab->Con/BP transfer.

Which underlines the problem with this "Tory voter" idea - a not insignificant number of Tory voters were one time Labour voters.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> We’re done for a generation now. Brexit has exposed such toxic divisions there's no way out. We’ve got another 10 years of Tory rule ahead of us.


I'd like to say it will be only 5. The Tories will fuck a lot of people off and there will not be the same 'brexit factor' in 5 years, it may even be going against the Tories. I would like to say that but even if Labour win in 5 years it is unlikely to be the same Labour party that lost last night it will be one only a tad to the left of the fucking tories, them winning will mean nothing. I kind of hope the tories do win again, so I can laugh at the cunts in Labour who don't understand why they lost.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

One of my colleagues has admitted he's a proud Tory voter and Boris supporter.

I really liked him until he said that.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not sure what evidence Winot is basing that on.
> 
> As I said for some seats the drop in the Lab vote is so large that it is very hard not to believe that there was a significant amount of Lab->Con/BP transfer.
> 
> Which underlines the problem with this "Tory voter" idea - a not insignificant number of Tory voters were one time Labour voters.





* UKIP got 1.9% in 2017


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not sure what evidence Winot is basing that on.
> 
> As I said for some seats the drop in the Lab vote is so large that it is very hard not to believe that there was a significant amount of Lab->Con/BP transfer.
> 
> Which underlines the problem with this "Tory voter" idea - a not insignificant number of Tory voters were one time Labour voters.


I know it is hard to tell, but is there much indication of Labour to tory movement? The tory vote looks pretty static yo me it looks mainly like Labour to brexit and maybe abstention.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Yeesh, leftie social media replete with "the working classes are all stupid racist scumbags" today. Like guys I know you're disappointed, but blaming working class people for being too thick and mean to agree with you ain't the way.


Yeah. But it also has an elephant in its room too, that doing anything useful with this outlook - hello redsquirrel - seems to have just got even further away. More divisions, more apparent enemies, more disarray, less evidence of any kind of structure to leverage.


----------



## Mr Retro (Dec 13, 2019)

Nigel Farage on LBC talking about Corbyn's antisemitism. Christ alive.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> I know it is hard to tell, but is there much indication of Labour to tory movement? The tory vote looks pretty static yo me it looks mainly like Labour to brexit and maybe abstention.



Judging by the graph above, I would guess at some movement from Lab to Con in the north, and some from Con to Lab/LDs in the south, hence the Con voting share only going up 1.2%.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Where have all these Tory voters come from?


Hell.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Judging by the graph above, I would guess at some movement from Lab to Con in the north, and some from Con to Lab/LDs in the south, hence the Con voting share only going up 1.2%.


I am sure there is some but not sure it is the  significant factor in the result.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 13, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> We’re done for a generation now. Brexit has exposed such toxic divisions there's no way out. We’ve got another 10 years of Tory rule ahead of us.



Hard to believe this is happening after the Tories had already been in power for 10 years - by the next election, there will be 32-year-olds who have spent their entire adult lives under Tory governments.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> One of my colleagues has admitted he's a proud Tory voter and Boris supporter.
> 
> I really liked him until he said that.


Thankfully people generally tend not to talk about politics at work - I don't think I could bear it if people behaved like that.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Thankfully people generally tend not to talk about politics at work - I don't think I could bear it if people behaved like that.


I wish I worked in a place like yours. It’s relentless here this morning. Ex-miners offspring bragging about how they are proud to have helped the country by voting Tory.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Dec 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I wish I worked in a place like yours. It’s relentless here this morning. Ex-miners offspring bragging about how they are proud to have helped the country by voting Tory.


At least they're outing themselves as cunts.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> At least they're outing themselves as cunts.



Barnsley.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 13, 2019)

I work in the NHS. I'm not in today but lots of colleagues have been in touch. We feel pretty broken but I suppose at least we're all in despair together. 

There's already been talk of when we'll be striking over the US deal.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> There is still hope.
> 
> Mars One





That's the dutch reality tv lot isn't it? I think they went bust. There is a thread somewhere.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2019)

Cannot say I'm surprised by the vote result this morning,

was hoping for another hung parliament but as the Brexit ballocks has already be dragged out for 4 years already.

let just see how people react when they find out even if Boris pushes for the end of January deadline.

we still got years of this shit to come


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 13, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Fair. I agree with you on long term neglect. I don't agree so much on Brexit, which is a Tory grenade put through the window leaving no really good options.
> 
> But there will be this whole period now of self-flagellation and recrimination looking at, at most, the last few years if not just the campaign itself, and I think it's going to be really unfair: lots of people worked really hard to offer something positive, and it's not OK to write them off as should-have-done-better. That's a road that takes us to abandonment and inherent centrism.


The trouble is that the 'something positive' evidently wasn't positive in the eyes of too many people, particularly in the places where safe Labour seats were lost. That's because, the disastrous shift in the party on Brexit and some of the positive economic stuff aside, it reflected the preoccupations of today's radical left, which don't really have to be listed, as they have been endlessly debated on here. In particular, the obsession with 'identity' and lifestyle politics, reflecting the mentality of the largely middle class professional makeup of today's left, is evidently alienating for too many of the 'left behind,' as is the obsession with 'minorities' (which mirrors that of the right.)

This defeat represents the final nail in the coffin of the old left or what it has become, and has been a long-time in the making. The remnants of the far-left (along with those they have been able to drag in from the younger, self-righteous activist milieu) and their fellow-travellers in the LP will never again get so close to government, however far away that proved to be in the end. So what remains for them? Any change in approach will only ever be cosmetic, as they are, as as been proved time and time again, incapable of change. There will be a concerted attempt by the equally out-of-touch, Remain-obsessed Labour right, to rid the LP of their influence, which will fail because of the present-day party membership, and due to being based on politics made redundant by events since 2008, particularly Brexit. These factors, and the scale of the defeat, might mean that Labour will never be in government again, aside from in some kind of unlikely coalition. So it's back to mere protest politics for the old left. And that bodes ill: you only have to look at the hand-wringing, 'What-is-wrong-with-people-the-country-is-full-of cunts' incomprehending self-righteousness in this thread alone to realise that little or nothing will come of it. And talk of 'riots' in the summer smacks of desperation, and would only result in a further move to the right among the population. But none of this means we live in a right-wing society, just one where the delusions of lifestyle politics and 'identity' can easily be incorporated into an economy controlled by right-wing zealots.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Thankfully people generally tend not to talk about politics at work - I don't think I could bear it if people behaved like that.



Same here. Although i used to share a room with a rabid ukipper. Glad he left. He'd be unbearable this morning.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 13, 2019)

emanymton said:


> Even if it is true someone else as leader would have done better  (which it isn't) so fucking what? What would be the point of that? It would just have been more of the fucking same. It isn't about just getting a Labour win. It is about getting a government that might at least try to slow down the rate we are sinking into shit.



Better Boris than Blair ?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

Tory-voing working class people are still WC people getting exploited by bosses and the Tories. Best not to forget that


----------



## OzT (Dec 13, 2019)

does anyone know when has an election been won by number of seats and with over 51% of the voters please?


----------



## emanymton (Dec 13, 2019)

alex_ said:


> Better Boris than Blair ?


False comparison Johnson (Not Boris) is taking charge of a country in a very diffrent position to Blair did.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

mauvais said:


> Fair. I agree with you on long term neglect. I don't agree so much on Brexit, which is a Tory grenade put through the window leaving no really good options.
> 
> But there will be this whole period now of self-flagellation and recrimination looking at, at most, the last few years if not just the campaign itself, and I think it's going to be really unfair: lots of people worked really hard to offer something positive, and it's not OK to write them off as should-have-done-better. That's a road that takes us to abandonment and inherent centrism.
> 
> Edit: I'm not saying you yourself are doing that, just want to be really cautious of blaming 'the left' for failing to handle a really difficult scenario


Yes, lots of people did work really hard and I don’t think anyone is blaming them- but the message was still unavoidably “You shouldn’t have bothered voting in 2016, here have all these nice promises and do get out and vote again!”  

As I said in  another post ages ago even many working class remain voters think this attitude is rank, the ones you don’t hear shouting on social media, at work, etc.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2019)

RD2003 I don't think identity politics has been a big feature of this election or the party stuff leading up to it. Whilst I agree it's toxic to overall organising and solidarity, Labour ran on a public services ticket. I also think they did change significantly. Whether it sticks is another matter.

Identity politics is not the same thing as not listening to people or operating in a middle class metropolitan bubble.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

OzT said:


> does anyone know when has an election been won by number of seats and with over 51% of the voters please?



I don't think any recent election has had over 50% of the votes. Possibly 1945 did (not checked any figures)


----------



## crossthebreeze (Dec 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Yeesh, leftie social media replete with "the working classes are all stupid racist scumbags" today. Like guys I know you're disappointed, but blaming working class people for being too thick and mean to agree with you ain't the way.


Yeah that shit is doing my head in as much as the result and the gloating tories.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

I think a dislike of labour councils has had some impact in many of the 'red wall' seats.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

moochedit said:


> I don't think any recent election has had over 50% of the votes. Possibly 1945 did (not checked any figures)



Or do you mean over 50% turnout? I think most general elections manage that.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

crossthebreeze said:


> Yeah that shit is doing my head in as much as the result and the gloating tories.


Whilst simultaneously phil collins-ing.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 13, 2019)

mauvais said:


> RD2003 I don't think identity politics has been a big feature of this election or the party stuff leading up to it. Whilst I agree it's toxic to overall organising and solidarity, Labour ran on a public services ticket. I also think they did change significantly. Whether it sticks is another matter.
> 
> Identity politics is not the same thing as not listening to people or operating in a middle class metropolitan bubble.


It's perception though. The identity brigade don't seem to realise that to those who don't live in social media or in their own little bubbles, they appear a little insane.


----------



## OzT (Dec 13, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Or do you mean over 50% turnout? I think most general elections manage that.



No I meant over 51% of the people who voted, so they can say they really ARE the majority, not just in the number of seats.


----------



## pinkychukkles (Dec 13, 2019)

Just to note - _people who voted_ = turnout

_The electorate_ = anyone who is eligible to vote, whether they do so or not.


----------



## OzT (Dec 13, 2019)

You're right pinkychukkles my error


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Sadly there are a large number of bastards in the country - particularly England.


Not England's fault. Not the fault of one particular country, not completely. Bastards are everywhere.  	Likewise, plenty of people in England who are not Tory bastards. Most people, really.  I don't know what we can do. 

Don't mourn ... well you know the rest.


----------



## pinkychukkles (Dec 13, 2019)

OzT said:


> You're right pinkychukkles my error


 no worries

As an aside, I would like voting to be compulsory but for there to also be a "None of the above" on every ballot paper. [/derail]


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

OzT said:


> No I meant over 51% of the people who voted, so they can say they really ARE the majority, not just in the number of seats.



Well i just quickly googled thatcher in 1983 (the "landslide") and blair in 1997 and they were 42.4% and 43.2% so i doubt 50% of the votes has happenned very often if ever.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Macmillan got 49.7% in 59. The 1935 election had 55% for Baldwin.

edit: no, think i read that wrong


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

RD2003 said:


> ...


 "Liked" because I will take time to read this properly.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

RD2003 said:


> The trouble is that the 'something positive' evidently wasn't positive in the eyes of too many people, particularly in the places where safe Labour seats were lost. That's because, the disastrous shift in the party on Brexit and some of the positive economic stuff aside, it reflected the preoccupations of today's radical left, which don't really have to be listed, as they have been endlessly debated on here. In particular, the obsession with 'identity' and lifestyle politics, reflecting the mentality of the largely middle class professional makeup of today's left, is evidently alienating for too many of the 'left behind,' as is the obsession with 'minorities' (which mirrors that of the right.)
> 
> This defeat represents the final nail in the coffin of the old left or what it has become, and has been a long-time in the making. The remnants of the far-left (along with those they have been able to drag in from the younger, self-righteous activist milieu) and their fellow-travellers in the LP will never again get so close to government, however far away that proved to be in the end. So what remains for them? Any change in approach will only ever be cosmetic, as they are, as as been proved time and time again, incapable of change. There will be a concerted attempt by the equally out-of-touch, Remain-obsessed Labour right, to rid the LP of their influence, which will fail because of the present-day party membership, and due to being based on politics made redundant by events since 2008, particularly Brexit. These factors, and the scale of the defeat, might mean that Labour will never be in government again, aside from in some kind of unlikely coalition. So it's back to mere protest politics for the old left. And that bodes ill: you only have to look at the hand-wringing, 'What-is-wrong-with-people-the-country-is-full-of cunts' incomprehending self-righteousness in this thread alone to realise that little or nothing will come of it. And talk of 'riots' in the summer smacks of desperation, and would only result in a further move to the right among the population. But none of this means we live in a right-wing society, just one where the delusions of lifestyle politics and 'identity' can easily be incorporated into an economy controlled by right-wing zealots.



Anyone who has fought to get issues like welfare reform as a key campaign by the left will agree with you, a number of years ago, benefit campaigners in London held a Requiem for the dead in parliament square, i think there were about 20 there, this in a city where protesters are on the streets for every global issue going, etc. Here in Sheffield, a major meeting on social care saw 10 people, a few months later,  one on a deportation had over 100 on a rainy Monday night. i also saw it with the priorities of the motions to the CLP.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

So i guess we have a labour leadership contest coming up. Does "the left" have enough numbers now in the mp's to get a "left" candidate onto the ballot? Or will the blairites manage to keep them off it? 
Anyone know?


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Tory-voing working class people are still WC people getting exploited by bosses and the Tories. Best not to forget that


Even if many of them appear to have lost sight of it


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> I work in the NHS. I'm not in today but lots of colleagues have been in touch. We feel pretty broken but I suppose at least we're all in despair together.
> 
> There's already been talk of when we'll be striking over the US deal.


Let's see what happens with the six counties as that will have a big influence on whether a US trade deal gets past the house of representatives


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

While there is a lot of value in critiquing the identity focus of dominant left, its impact on this election was fuck all. This really was about brexit and about labour backing a second referendum. That's it.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

moochedit said:


> So i guess we have a labour leadership contest coming up. Does "the left" have enough numbers now in the mp's to get a "left" candidate onto the ballot? Or will the blairites manage to keep them off it?
> Anyone know?


There are no real blairites left. The left is in control of the party.


----------



## RD2003 (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> Anyone who has fought to get issues like welfare reform as a key campaign by the left will agree with you, a number of years ago, benefit campaigners in London held a requiem for the dead in parliament square, i think there were about 20 there, this in a city where protesters are on the streets for every global issue going, etc.


Part of the trouble is that any fightback based on public sector workers and middle-class professionals is doomed to failure if it can't drag in the exploited working class in the private sector-where nobody will organise themselves because they're-rightly-shit scared of losing their jobs, and prey to those who will blame immigrants for their plight.


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Tory-voing working class people are still WC people getting exploited by bosses and the Tories. Best not to forget that



Course they are, but equally Labour has long - perhaps always - exploited its wc voters. All New Labour did was sugar-coat the turd Thatcher had done on mining and other post-industrial communities,* and not out of any loyalty to them but to ensure that appalling human beings like Alan Milburn could be installed in seats where they could get away with doing fuck-all locally while they were busy with their cabinet agendas.

*often with the help of the EU funding those communities have repeatedly been accused of being too stupid or ungrateful to appreciate in the last three years - it all adds up, doesn't it?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 13, 2019)

moochedit said:


> I don't think any recent election has had over 50% of the votes. Possibly 1945 did (not checked any figures)



Attlee got a smidge under 48%


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2019)

Have we had any regretful tory voter vox pops yet?
Can't be long?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Dec 13, 2019)

Has anyone seen an age breakdown of the exit polling? 
Wondering whether a few hundred thousand older English people in the north, probably retired, have moved labour to BP/con and had a significant impact on the result. Whilst others stayed at home.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Have we had any regretful tory voter vox pops yet?
> Can't be long?



Give it until Johnson extends the transitional period.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)




----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

The writing was on the wall for Flint, when areas like Denaby Main, regarded in 74 as the most militant, bloody-minded area in Britain, voted 85% Leave.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Following the defeat of Dennis Skinner, my MP, Peter Bottomley, becomes 'Father of the House of Commons'.

Momentum is very active here, got the first Labour councillor in 41 years elected to the borough council in 2017, more in 2018 & this year, meaning we now have 10, and Bottomley isn't happy.



> In his victory speech, he launched a scathing attack on the Labour leader.
> 
> "Corbyn, it is time for you to get out of the way," he said. "Your world view has been rejected, your national view has been rejected and I hope Momentum will leave town and we can get the Labour Party back."


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> The writing was on the wall for Flint, when areas like Denaby Main, regarded in 74 as the most militant, bloody-minded area in Britain, voted 85% Leave.



bur what do they think will happen now?

Goldthorpe, that saw the thatcher death celebrations, voted same, ffs.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

Did Goldthorpe vote Tory?


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 13, 2019)

Twitter is full of people saying Labour could have won by going full remain. Facts never touch some people do they?


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Thankfully people generally tend not to talk about politics at work - I don't think I could bear it if people behaved like that.


I retreated to the kitchen. I didn't want to say anything that would get me disciplined.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> bur what do they think will happen now?
> 
> Goldthorpe, that saw the thatcher death celebrations, voted same, ffs.


I’m gutted but sadly not surprised.
My dad’s family and all my wife’s family are from Denaby.
I worked in Goldthorpe, between 79 to 91. Incredible people, salt of the earth. But lately I just hear the same story over and over that Labour has abandoned these areas. Whatever the truth, facts or cause, these people have totally lost faith in Labour as a party that looks after the WC.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 13, 2019)

I feel like the Tories offered people a chance at self-respect through the reliable old medium of nationalism - always the best way to create unity across class divides. Sometimes I've been baffled by the success of the Brexit narrative coming from a bunch of spivs. But I've realised it's always been about stirring up nationalism.

Labour offered free broadband. And a load of other good stuff. But they didn't offer self-respect.

That's my initial thought on the media-game level. There's also an extent to which the left should never leave itself at the mercy of the media game. It should be creating practical solidarity between elections, building a politics that isn't at the mercy of the media. That also didn't happen. 

Thus we are fucked.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Did Goldthorpe vote Tory?



11,000+ for BP.
John Healey back for Labour.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I feel like the Tories offered people a chance at self-respect through the reliable old medium of nationalism - always the best way to create unity across class divides. Sometimes I've been baffled by the success of the Brexit narrative coming from a bunch of spivs. But I've realised it's always been about stirring up nationalism.
> 
> Labour offered free broadband. And a load of other good stuff. But they didn't offer self-respect.
> 
> ...


There is an ingrained sense of the legitimacy of the democratic vote (i mean _any _democratic vote) amongst w/c communities - even those alienated from formal politics, even from those who voted remain. I don't think that exists to the same extent across all of society. The tories could campaign with that as background understanding in these areas - not nationalism.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> There is an ingrained sense of the legitimacy of the democratic vote (i mean _any _democratic vote) amongst w/c communities - even those alienated from formal politics, even from those who voted remain. i don't think that exists to the same extent across all of society. The tories could campaign with that as background understanding in these areas - not nationalism.


That may be true in the north, I don't know, I admit to being a southerner. The working class Brexiters I've spoken to in the south-east haven't talked much about democratic legitimacy, just the odd comment about 'respecting the vote', but never as the main point (because I suppose that wasn't the issue when they first voted Brexit).


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2019)

So Labour will swing rightwards with a centreist drone and likely lose again in 2024. Or dump Corbyn but keep the social democratic flavoured policies. Change the scenery and cast but keep the same script?

The former seems more likely, given the early prognostications.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> That may be true in the north, I don't know, I admit to being a southerner. The working class Brexiters I've spoken to in the south-east haven't talked much about democratic legitimacy, just the odd comment about 'respecting the vote', but never as the main point (because I suppose that wasn't the issue when they first voted Brexit).



You live in a different world to me. I’ve been warning people for 3 years that people were raging about this.

The reason why the people we are talking about voted to leave wasn’t primarily about the EU. The reason why they are furious about the frustration of the vote wasn’t primarily about the EU either.

Class inequality is complicated. Political alienation is corrosive and devastating. Being pushed to the periphery and demonised and sneered at hurts and provokes anger.

That after the GE sections of the left still don’t get or understand these points makes one thing clear. They are the problem


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

xenon said:


> So Labour will swing rightwards with a centreist drone and likely lose again in 2024. Or dump Corbyn but keep the social democratic flavoured policies. Change the scenery and cast but keep the same script?
> 
> The former seems more likely, given the early prognostications.



Wherever centrist third way politics entered the fray in the election it was smashed. It’s dead


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Wherever centrist third way politics entered the fray in the election it was smashed. It’s dead


The Third Way was so associated with Blair, whose era is utterly dead.


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Wherever centrist third way politics entered the fray in the election it was smashed. It’s dead


You'd think but there are plenty trying to reserect that corpse this morning.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> The Third Way was so associated with Blair, whose era is utterly dead.



Precisely. Look at their new political formations: dead. Look at the PV: dead. Look at the failed dregs who stood: dead. LD’s: dead.

A once in a lifetime battle on the left is coming. But they won’t be part of it


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That after the GE sections of the left still don’t get or understand these points makes one thing clear. They are the problem



Your section of the left - which gets it - you believe that had they put together a manifesto for people to vote for - we'd be looking at a different result this morning? Is that your genuine belief?


----------



## kebabking (Dec 13, 2019)

I've heard of very few conversations with 'should be' labour voters that suggested that going back to Blairite-Miliband-esque  economic policies would be what would get them to vote Labour - the problem was _overwhelmingly _the london-based swing to remain and Corbyn personally.

From where I sit it looked like fairly obvious, Politics 101 stuff - accept the referendum result, and don't ask people to vote for a bloke who went on cycling holidays in East Germany, was best mates with Gerry Adams, and who, through his odd friendships and bizarre tastes in art, allowed himself to painted as anti-Semitic.

Corbynite economics were almost universally popular - and not just amongst would-be Labour motors - but the move away from respecting the vote, and the man personally, was electoral poison on the doorstep.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Your section of the left - which gets it - you believe that had they put together a manifesto for people to vote for - we'd be looking at a different result this morning? Is that your genuine belief?



People weren’t voting to stop investment. People weren’t going mental about plans to renationalise rail. There aren’t furious arguments about plans to set up a national investment bank


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> People weren’t voting to stop investment. People weren’t going mental about plans to renationalise rail. There aren’t furious arguments about plans to set up a national investment bank


That doesn't answer the question.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I've heard of very few conversations with 'should be' labour voters that suggested that going back to Blairite-Miliband-esque  economic policies would be what would get them to vote Labour - the problem was _overwhelmingly _the london-based swing to remain and Corbyn personally.
> 
> From where I sit it looked like fairly obvious, Politics 101 stuff - accept the referendum result, and don't ask people to vote for a bloke who went on cycling holidays in East Germany, was best mates with Gerry Adams, and who, through his odd friendships and bizarre tastes in art, allowed himself to painted as anti-Semitic.
> 
> Corbynite economics were almost universally popular - and not just amongst would-be Labour motors - but the move away from respecting the vote, and the man personally, was electoral poison on the doorstep.


Johnson personally was fine though?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> That doesn't answer the question.



Historically successful movements were interconnected with a non state network of working class institutions including trade unions, cooperatives, newspapers, mutual aid groups, art scenes etc.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Johnson personally was fine though?



No, he's not liked - but he respected their vote.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

xenon said:


> So Labour will swing rightwards with a centreist drone and likely lose again in 2024. Or dump Corbyn but keep the social democratic flavoured policies. Change the scenery and cast but keep the same script?
> 
> The former seems more likely, given the early prognostications.


Leadership election rules have changed and the now enlarged membership won't be swinging too far rightward. I don't see how the new leader could be a Blair clone.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Johnson personally was fine though?


People like "characters", cunts who are amusing.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> There is an ingrained sense of the legitimacy of the democratic vote (i mean _any _democratic vote) amongst w/c communities - even those alienated from formal politics, even from those who voted remain. I don't think that exists to the same extent across all of society. The tories could campaign with that as background understanding in these areas - not nationalism.


Respect for the vote extends across communities, which is why the "People's Vote" campaign didn't get going until 2018, after every attempt at a pragmatic Brexit was repeatedly ignored by Whitehall, and the full extent of Vote Leave's dirty tricks became public.

The underlying problem's that the 2016 referendum's been de-legitimized among the 2nd referendum crowd, but thanks to a media blackout on the extent of Leave's lawbreaking and Labour ignoring the issue (with a few brave exceptions like Ian Lucas), this hasn't escaped the bubble, leaving people to conclude that their vote's being disregarded not because of mass electoral rule breaking, but because Remainers hold them in contempt. PR disaster from start to finish.


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I've heard of very few conversations with 'should be' labour voters that suggested that going back to Blairite-Miliband-esque  economic policies would be what would get them to vote Labour - the problem was _overwhelmingly _the london-based swing to remain and Corbyn personally.
> 
> From where I sit it looked like fairly obvious, Politics 101 stuff - accept the referendum result, and don't ask people to vote for a bloke who went on cycling holidays in East Germany, was best mates with Gerry Adams, and who, through his odd friendships and bizarre tastes in art, allowed himself to painted as anti-Semitic.
> 
> Corbynite economics were almost universally popular - and not just amongst would-be Labour motors - but the move away from respecting the vote, and the man personally, was electoral poison on the doorstep.


Interesting. Yes, I'm no Corbynista. I'll admit, I don't get the furver for Brexit amongst large sections of the populas. I spoiled my voet in that one. So for me putting aside my misgivings about Corbyn, the ugly antisematism debarkle, I could vote Labour for the rest.

I can't yet find much empathy for the gainfully employed former Labour, debutant Tory voters who've given this bunch of cunts a mandate though.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

xenon said:


> So Labour will swing rightwards with a centreist drone and likely lose again in 2024. Or dump Corbyn but keep the social democratic flavoured policies. Change the scenery and cast but keep the same script?
> 
> The former seems more likely, given the early prognostications.


Will be a huge battle in labour which the left is best placed to win imo, they control labour now. It won't just drift away into a soft left nothingness, will be blood and guts first. Honestly don't know what labour party a year away will look like.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Azrael said:


> leaving people to conclude that their vote's being disregarded not because of mass electoral rule breaking, but because Remainers hold them in contempt.


Telling people they voted to leave the EU because of foreign money is what makes them think you hold them in contempt.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> No, he's not liked - but he respected their vote.


This is true. If Johnson ever calls an election relying on his personal likeability he will be in for a shock. He has a small fanbase who he might mistake for the mainstream, but they aren't. Most people held their noses to vote for him.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 13, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> I work in the NHS. I'm not in today but lots of colleagues have been in touch. We feel pretty broken but I suppose at least we're all in despair together.
> 
> There's already been talk of when we'll be striking over the US deal.



Could be an opportunity to link in with disability/social care/welfare issues treelover ?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Historically successful movements were interconnected with a non state network of working class institutions including trade unions, cooperatives, newspapers, mutual aid groups, art scenes etc.


I think what you are saying is your 'gets it' section of the left would have been incapable of success in this election because these networks don't exist in sufficient strength. But we are talking about what would or wouldn't have worked in the context of current reality.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> No, he's not liked - but he respected their vote.


But it seems like you are saying Corbyn's policies weren't what mattered - it's him personally. Then that Johnson's policies were what mattered - not him personally.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I think what you are saying is your 'gets it' section of the left would have been incapable of success in this election because these networks don't exist in sufficient strength. But we are talking about what would or wouldn't have worked in the context of current reality.



You can keep seeking binary, simple answers. But there aren’t any.

This is a slow motion car crash.

The majority left position on Brexit was the fuse.

The first question today is are the left listening. Has the penny now dropped. The early signs are that the answer is no.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

maomao said:


> Telling people they voted to leave the EU because of foreign money is what makes them think you hold them in contempt.


Of course, which is why not even Nick Timothy would put it in those terms.

Democracy's worthless without law, particularly laws mandating a level playing field. If you support an electoral free-for-all that'd make the justices behind Citizens United blush, with no spending limits,   no restrictions on campaign ads, and no limit to the lies that can be told, well fine, it's a POV, but one that should be agreed upfront, not done covertly in gleeful defiance of the law.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Dec 13, 2019)

peak moment for me last night was seeing my home town turn blue for the first ever time on one TV screen. And Aaron Bastani, looking like a man who had just seen his income disappear, on the other, telling us Corbyn got twice as many retweets as Boris.

What a time to be alive.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> But it seems like you are saying Corbyn's policies weren't what mattered - it's him personally. Then that Johnson's policies were what mattered - not him personally.



is this the bit where you finally grasp that politics can be complicated?


----------



## a_chap (Dec 13, 2019)

Take a look at the number of votes per seat column 







(via the Electoral Reform Society)


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Historically successful movements were interconnected with a non state network of working class institutions including trade unions, cooperatives, newspapers, mutual aid groups, art scenes etc.


This is true, but for a variety of reasons, social/technological/whatever, those institutions no longer exist, and are not going to be recreated in their previous form.

As I've pointed out before, harkening back to the glory days of the traditional labour movement and dismissing anything and anyone outside of that won't get us anywhere


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> This is true, but for a variety of reasons, social/technological/whatever, those institutions no longer exist, and are not going to be recreated in their previous form.



You are right they can’t be. But they, and similar collective working class networks, have to be recreated _in some form. 
_


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> is this the bit where you finally grasp that politics can be complicated?


That's an odd thing to say when I was questioning what seemed like an overly simplistic explanation for LP failure - it was 'obvious' what went wrong:



kebabking said:


> From where I sit it looked like fairly obvious, Politics 101 stuff - accept the referendum result, and don't ask people to vote for a bloke who went on cycling holidays in East Germany, was best mates with Gerry Adams, and who, through his odd friendships and bizarre tastes in art, allowed himself to painted as anti-Semitic.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are right they can’t be. But they, and similar collective working class networks, have to be recreated _in some form. _


By who?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

teuchter said:


> By who?



By those interested in pro working class politics


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> This is true, but for a variety of reasons, social/technological/whatever, those institutions no longer exist, and are not going to be recreated in their previous form.
> 
> As I've pointed out before, harkening back to the glory days of the traditional labour movement and dismissing anything and anyone outside of that won't get us anywhere


Helping Hands in Edingburgh is a good example of independent mutual aid


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 13, 2019)

Meanwhile, in a better timeline:


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Helping Hands in Edingburgh is a good example of independent mutual aid



Yes. It and similar projects needs a thread of their own at some point in the future. Projects like this - unglamorous, hard graft, requiring of commitment and led and dominated by the class itself - have much to tell us.

_By_ the class, _of_ the class, _for_ the class


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> This is true, but for a variety of reasons, social/technological/whatever, those institutions no longer exist, and are not going to be recreated in their previous form.
> 
> As I've pointed out before, harkening back to the glory days of the traditional labour movement and dismissing anything and anyone outside of that won't get us anywhere


Traditional industrial institutions may not be coming back, but Labour could embed itself deep into communities with new structures like friendly societies and co-ops, and by empowering locals to become parliamentary candidates.

It's striking how, both in the 2016 referendum and now this general, so many Lab MPs held so little sway in their constituencies, looking like so many district officers, not representatives embedded in their communities. Without the interface that used to be provided by industry, unions and so on, then however good the MP, that alienation's inevitable.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> No, he's not liked - but he respected their vote.


I'm not sure he has. Johnston has "cynical opportunist" written through him like a stick of rock, and I think it's suited his purposes, for now, to get behind the whole Brexit thing. I have no doubt that, just as it starts to get sticky - and it will - he'll find a convenient fridge to jump into, or the board of a merchant bank to join, do a Cameron, and fuck off out of it to leave someone else to pick up the mess.

The biggest tragedy of this is not that the Conservatives won, but that a government was elected on the basis of lies and unfulfillable promises...and a government from a party with a solid track record of botching up pretty much everything they've touched.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 13, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> Meanwhile, in a better timeline:
> 
> View attachment 192871


Picture and end of the headline make it look like ol' Jeremy's having a different kind of 'Christmas miracle"


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

existentialist said:


> and a government from a party with a solid track record of botching up pretty much everything they've touched.



This is reassuring.


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are right they can’t be. But they, and similar collective working class networks, have to be recreated _in some form. _


On this point, I agree 100%, but we need to find new forms relevant to the whole working class as it actually exists now, rather than dismissing the views of those you don't consider PFWC


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Helping Hands in Edingburgh is a good example of independent mutual aid


I'll Google them later


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> I'll Google them later


They are on Twitter as well


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Corbyn has the two highest labour votes since 87 now.

edit: disregard, read wrong figures


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

Top four house builders in England have made the biggest gains on the FTSE at the moment. Fire sale of whatever public land and commons are left eh. Watch those planning laws crash outside of posh spots.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> This is reassuring.


Not that reassuring - somehow, all the botching up still seems to end up landing in the laps of the poorest and most vulnerable


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

existentialist said:


> I'm not sure he has. Johnston has "cynical opportunist" written through him like a stick of rock, and I think it's suited his purposes, for now, to get behind the whole Brexit thing. I have no doubt that, just as it starts to get sticky - and it will - he'll find a convenient fridge to jump into, or the board of a merchant bank to join, do a Cameron, and fuck off out of it to leave someone else to pick up the mess.
> 
> The biggest tragedy of this is not that the Conservatives won, but that a government was elected on the basis of lies and unfulfillable promises...and a government from a party with a solid track record of botching up pretty much everything they've touched.


It's impossible to "respect" the 2016 vote for the simple reason that the model of Brexit promised is moonshine. That's why, despite wanting Britain to secede from the E.U. long before "Brexit" was a word, I voted to remain, choosing to sacrifice a bogus independence in the present to have a chance of the real thing in the future. When the hard trade-offs between national autonomy and economic well-being become impossible to hide, it'll discredit the idea of secession for decades, if not permanently.

Johnson's a binary choice ahead of him: rip the U.K. out the European economic zone, devastating its economy before tearing the union like frayed cloth; or adopting the fax democracy of the EFTA countries. Either option's a betrayal of the referendum promises. He's merely postponed the backlash.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 13, 2019)

..


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 13, 2019)

andysays said:


> On this point, I agree 100%, but we need to find new forms relevant to the whole working class as it actually exists now, rather than dismissing the views of those you don't consider PFWC



I don't dismiss any working class people.

what is PFWC?


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Ch4 news interviewing people who had voted labour for many many years, now voting tory, and now happy with the landslide.

yes, i know, vox pops.


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 13, 2019)

Entered in error.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2019)

a few random reactions to the Guardian's final results table:

*1 *: wtf...some interesting 'churn' going on
*2 *: lol
*3 *: good
*4 *: sorry if this sounds regionalist/offensive...but why the fuck did we have to listen to this guy so much in the TV debates if their total vote haul = 1/3 of Croydon's population?
*5 *: ha fucking ha

feel free to add....


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

I posted about how we will now suffer on my support group page

this woman from rotherham posted this.

'yeah it is if u see the state of sum areas in rotherham u would
understand why I want brexit to stop all the scum coming to my town
and making it a shit hole'


This is what we were up against in parts of the red wall.


----------



## JimW (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Corbyn has the two highest labour votes since 87 now.


Think Drew lost with more than he won with in 2005 in Stroud.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Top four house builders in England have made the biggest gains on the FTSE at the moment. Fire sale of whatever public land and commons are left eh. Watch those planning laws crash outside of posh spots.


Yep. What Johnson managed to do with the limited powers of London mayor should be a warning about what will come in the next five years now that he has considerably more power.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Corbyn has the two highest labour votes since 87 now.


87 or 97?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

maomao said:


> 87 or 97?


Oh ffs i looked at the tory numbers for 97. That's twice now i have misread that site.


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> a few random reactions to the Guardian's final results table:
> 
> *1 *: wtf...some interesting 'churn' going on
> *2 *: lol
> ...



In fairness to your regional bias, that’s also less than 5% of the Welsh population I think.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Corbyn has the two highest labour votes since 87 now.


Is this in pure numbers or %?

Edit ah should have read whole thread


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> I posted about how we will now suffer on my support group page
> 
> this woman from rotherham posted this.
> 
> ...



It’s Rovrum. 
Though there is a lot of hate toward the Labour controlled council who seemed complacent and unrepentant over the child abuse.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Is this in pure numbers or %?


Popular vote, but i got it wrong anyway by looking at tory numbers for labour in a couple of elections, so disregard.


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

Just for the hell of it I did the percentages of total uk population (not of electorate) at the time who voted labour:

2019 - 15.26%
2017 - 19.53%
2015 - 14.38%
2010 - 13.71%
2005 - 15.83%
2001 - 18.14%
1997 - 23.19%


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

So Corbyn did better than Brown and Milliband, and in 2017 better than anyone bar Blair's first win


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

But what we need is more sensible centrists like Brown and Milliband


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

I may be missing something, like maths ability, but on the face of it, as a simple proportion of total population, yes.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> I may be missing something, like maths ability, but on the face of it, as a simple proportion of total population, yes.


And voting eligibility, but you know. I'm taking every crumb today


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 13, 2019)

a_chap said:


> Take a look at the number of votes per seat column
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Cor, bet the yellow Tory scummers wish they had proportional representation


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Following the defeat of Dennis Skinner, my MP, Peter Bottomley, becomes 'Father of the House of Commons'.



I didn't know he wasn't dead - although perhaps that doesn't stop you being a tory MP. He always had those cold, dead eyes anyway - like a concentration camp guard.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

billy_bob said:


> I didn't know he wasn't dead - although perhaps that doesn't stop you being a tory MP. He always had those cold, dead eyes anyway - like a concentration camp guard.



TBF, if they put up a dead dog around here, it would win.


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> Just for the hell of it I did the percentages of total uk population (not of electorate) at the time who voted labour:
> 
> 2019 - 15.26%
> 2017 - 19.53%
> ...



Hard to see what if anything this tells us, given constituency-based FPTP.


----------



## Argonia (Dec 13, 2019)

I fucking hate FPTP, it's utterly perverse.


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

billy_bob said:


> Hard to see what if anything this tells us, given constituency-based FPTP.



It’s essentially the same figure as number of people voting for a party, but in terms relative to population change rather than an absolute figure. Limited use, but puts things into perspective a bit.


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

It would probably be more useful as a % of people eligible to vote in a given year, but couldn’t be arsed finding that. Though suppose it would have been easy to work out from turnout. Oh well. Always good to practice maths.


----------



## moochedit (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> a few random reactions to the Guardian's final results table:
> 
> *1 *: wtf...some interesting 'churn' going on
> *2 *: lol
> ...



Cheers. Was trying to find something with gains and losses. Bbc only gave the net change. Also theirs was based on change from last election.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

Argonia said:


> I fucking hate FPTP, it's utterly perverse.


I'm a fan in different circumstances -- independent MPs elected in multiple-member constituencies, as used to be the case in Britain -- but with the Tories' purge of the few moderates they had left, I've given up any hope of England getting back to that.

I couldn't support the closed-list systems seen on the Continent, which gift political parties central control over a procession of placemen, making legislatures powerless talking shops, but Ireland's STV system is a reasonable compromise between proportionality and maintaining strong constituency links.


----------



## Argonia (Dec 13, 2019)

STV is good


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

Plus causes politicans to engage in perpetual civil war against members of their own parties to get the transfer votes, which helps popcorn sales and distracts them from more malign plots.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2019)

It has started already. That fucking awful woman is already stirring it up.


Spoiler: Nasty piece of shit.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELqpUq0WoAEPhih?format=jpg&name=medium


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Don't fucking help her mate!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 13, 2019)

Christ 

Yes, I know she's a professional cunt and just doing it to keep herself in the spotlight. But she's speaking for a lot of people, isn't she?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

What a total scumbag.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 13, 2019)

Got a point though with the scumbags that surround johnson.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Loathe though i am to talk about this, the idea that a) either TR or KH would be allowed in the tory party is nonsense and b) the claim that the tory party have moved into a hard white nationalist position is just not correct - their non-membership being one example of this.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 13, 2019)

Last result in - St Ives, CON majority was just 78 over the LDs, CON hold with massive increase in maj.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> * UKIP got 1.9% in 2017


That shows the overall vote share, that does not prove that Lab voters are going to non-voters and not going to Con/BP


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Loathe though i am to talk about this, the idea that a) either TR or KH would be allowed in the tory party is nonsense and b) the claim that the tory party have moved into a hard white nationalist position is just not correct - their non-membership being one example of this.


Eh? Seriously, I don't understand. And I'm not even sure how relevant it is whether TR or KH would be 'allowed' into the tory party - isn't it enough that they sit there on twitter and twit their tory bile?


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Loathe though i am to talk about this, the idea that a) either TR or KH would be allowed in the tory party is nonsense and b)* the claim that the tory party have moved into a hard white nationalist position is just not correct* - their non-membership being one example of this.


This. Johnson is of course revolting but this idea going round that he and/or the CP is hard right is not based on anything factual.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 13, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Eh? Seriously, I don't understand. And I'm not even sure how relevant it is whether TR or KH would be 'allowed' into the tory party - isn't it enough that they sit there on twitter and twit their tory bile?


What I said above. No one is saying TR and KH are anything but scum. BA is saying, and I've agreeing with him, that the Tory party is not a hard right party, that Johnson is not hard right.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Eh? Seriously, I don't understand. And I'm not even sure how relevant it is whether TR or KH would be 'allowed' into the tory party - isn't it enough that they sit there on twitter and twit their tory bile?


They spout white nationalist bile and pretend that it's the tory party doing so. It's not. And it's not them saying what the tory party leadership really thinks undercover either. And they do this to get attention, like we're giving them now.


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What I said above. No one is saying TR and KH are anything but scum. BA is saying, and I've agreeing with him, that the Tory party is not a hard right party, that Johnson is not hard right.


OK, if you say so.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 13, 2019)

It’s a national populist government surely?


----------



## elbows (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> This. Johnson is of course revolting but this idea going round that he and/or the CP is hard right is not based on anything factual.



And if the first hours commentary after the exit poll were anything to go by, we will be hearing a lot more parping about 'one nation' tory stuff now. Blended with the 'what positions will Johnson actually take now that he doesnt need certain partners/wings of the party' stuff.


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 13, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What I said above. No one is saying TR and KH are anything but scum. BA is saying, and I've agreeing with him, that the Tory party is not a hard right party, that Johnson is not hard right.


Sorry, I was reading it as almost as if you were somehow excusing tory party , which obvs you're not, so was confused. 
/Not confused.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 13, 2019)

Much more important issues are afoot in California.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> They spout white nationalist bile and pretend that it's the tory party doing so. It's not. And it's not them saying what the tory party leadership really thinks undercover either. And they do this to get attention, like we're giving them now.


'treat the UK as if it's part of their own country for too long'

Boris Johnson four days ago, wooing the racist vote. 

That _is_ white nationalist bile, or as near as damn it.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2019)

Regardless of membership of the party. I have already heard reports of people being abused outside Brixton tube this morning. I really feel sorry for minorities at the moment. Unfortunately little englander got his way.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 13, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> It’s a national populist government surely?


What does that even mean?

And while his victory may have encouraged loads of racists to drop the mask and abuse people they don't like of (soon, one of them is going to try it on the wrong person), there's nothing at all to stop people like that being mainstream Conservatives instead of coloured shirt wearers.


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'treat the UK as if it's part of their own country for too long'
> 
> Boris Johnson four days ago, wooing the racist vote.
> 
> That _is_ white nationalist bile, or as near as damn it.


Exactly, just like the infamous Breaking Point poster, and the Turkey Facebook ads. Since Johnson believes in nothing beside his own success, I doubt he'd take the effort to form some white supremacist worldview, but so what if he doesn't sit around fantasizing about an ethno-state? As evidenced by decades of saloon-bar columns, he's more than happy to wallow in that swamp, and there's self-appointed proxies to pick up where he's left off.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 13, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Exactly, just like the infamous Breaking Point poster, and the Turkey Facebook ads. Since Johnson believes in nothing beside his own success, I doubt he'd take the effort to form some white supremacist worldview, but so what if he doesn't sit around fantasizing about an ethno-state? As evidenced by decades of saloon-bar columns, he's more than happy to wallow in that swamp, and there's self-appointed proxies to pick up where he's left off.


If he does fantasize like that, it's about as deep as the idiot kids who post Stalin memes about the place. But he has the capacity to do more serious harm.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

Azrael said:


> As evidenced by decades of saloon-bar columns, he's more than happy to wallow in that swamp, and there's self-appointed proxies to pick up where he's left off.


Yep, and when I say 'wooing the racist vote', it's actually worse than that. To the extent that he actually influences people, he is legitimising and strengthening racist sentiment, fertilising the ground in which it can grow, and so contributing towards new racist votes.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2019)

Don't know about 'red wall'...it's now looking like someone took a messy leg wound in the NW and limped down to Kent leaving a trail of blood...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Don't know about 'red wall'...it's now looking like someone took a messy leg wound in the NW and limped down to Kent leaving a trail of blood...
> 
> View attachment 192887


Of course, once you take out the spatial variation in population density determined constituency size, things (on an equalised scale) look much 'brighter'..


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Of course, once you take out the spatial variation in population density determined constituency size, things (on an equalised scale) look much 'brighter'..
> 
> View attachment 192888


Well...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2019)

The TR joining the tories has traction across the twitter sphere apparently. It is obviously shite


----------



## Azrael (Dec 13, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep, and when I say 'wooing the racist vote', it's actually worse than that. To the extent that he actually influences people, he is legitimising and strengthening racist sentiment, fertilising the ground in which it can grow, and so contributing towards new racist votes.


And is of course in with Steve Bannon, the guy who bragged that he ran the platform of the alt-right, says that "racist" should be worn as a badge of pride, and never shuts up about the "party of Davos." (Bannon, naturally, insists that he's free of racial bigotry and has been misunderstood.) Whatever their personal views, this transatlantic sewer is plumbed in to Johnson and the rest of the Vote Leave 2.0 mob.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Well...


ish


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Of course, once you take out the spatial variation in population density determined constituency size, things (on an equalised scale) look much 'brighter'..
> 
> View attachment 192888



I’m generally pretty bad at art, but quite chuffed with my quick caricature:


 

Edited for a more Britannia feel


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> I’m generally pretty bad at art, but quite chuffed with my quick caricature:
> 
> 
> View attachment 192890


E Anglia as the ample arse of the UK.


----------



## JimW (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> E Anglia as the ample arse of the UK.


Didn't Prince Charles go to Amplearse then send his sons there?


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You live in a different world to me. I’ve been warning people for 3 years that people were raging about this.
> 
> The reason why the people we are talking about voted to leave wasn’t primarily about the EU. The reason why they are furious about the frustration of the vote wasn’t primarily about the EU either.
> 
> ...





Smokeandsteam said:


> Historically successful movements were interconnected with a non state network of working class institutions including trade unions, cooperatives, newspapers, mutual aid groups, art scenes etc.



I think its time to back to basics, mutual aid, we do have acorn, here with have Foodhall, foodbanks,though obviously issues with endorsing those, today one of my carers has the baillifs around, for nin payment of traffic fine, it was two days late, i am going bankrupt paying 50% of my care costs back to the council, its a labour council. To many they are seen as the enemy, but  as i say adfin, where are the allies of people like my carer, years ago, you could have rang round and a crowd would support her.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 13, 2019)

Saw my first celebrating racist on the tube earlier this afternoon, on the Central Line going west. Got on with a little union jack on a stick and started saying "excuse me sir, are you _offended_ by the flag? Madam, are you _offended_ by the flag of our country? I'm just doing an experiment to see if anyone is _offended_ by our country's flag." Occasionally he would swear to himself as well.

Of course everyone stared very hard at their phones and rolled their eyes when he wasn't looking. (He was at the other end of the row of seats so didn't get near me thankfully.) He did quiet down after a bit of being ignored, but at Shepherd's Bush, when the announcement about "change her for..." came on, he muttered audibly "change here if you want to get stabbed" - which I'm sure of course is a reference to the general issue of knife crime in the capital and nothing at all to do with the multicultural makeup of the area.

I expect there will be a bunch out around Whitehall, particularly as some people are talking about doing an anti-Tory protest in Parliament Square.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

RD2003 said:


> The trouble is that the 'something positive' evidently wasn't positive in the eyes of too many people, particularly in the places where safe Labour seats were lost. That's because, the disastrous shift in the party on Brexit and some of the positive economic stuff aside, it reflected the preoccupations of today's radical left, which don't really have to be listed, as they have been endlessly debated on here. In particular, the obsession with 'identity' and lifestyle politics, reflecting the mentality of the largely middle class professional makeup of today's left, is evidently alienating for too many of the 'left behind,' as is the obsession with 'minorities' (which mirrors that of the right.)


The Labour Manifesto was all about material conditions - what has it got to do with Identity?

If anything has to do with Identity in this election its the Tory campaign in which national identity played a massive part


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Casually asked my son what we should do about Boris on the way home from school, he replies 
“We could just kill him?”


Hadn’t even gotten to that part of the indoctrination yet


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Saw my first celebrating racist on the tube earlier this afternoon, on the Central Line going west. Got on with a little union jack on a stick and started saying "excuse me sir, are you _offended_ by the flag? Madam, are you _offended_ by the flag of our country? I'm just doing an experiment to see if anyone is _offended_ by our country's flag." Occasionally he would swear to himself as well.
> 
> Of course everyone stared very hard at their phones and rolled their eyes when he wasn't looking. (He was at the other end of the row of seats so didn't get near me thankfully.) He did quiet down after a bit of being ignored, but at Shepherd's Bush, when the announcement about "change her for..." came on, he muttered audibly "change here if you want to get stabbed" - which I'm sure of course is a reference to the general issue of knife crime in the capital and nothing at all to do with the multicultural makeup of the area.
> 
> I expect there will be a bunch out around Whitehall, particularly as some people are talking about doing an anti-Tory protest in Parliament Square.


I'd have glanced at it and told him he had it the wrong way up, if he'd approached me


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Will be a huge battle in labour which the left is best placed to win imo, they control labour now. It won't just drift away into a soft left nothingness, will be blood and guts first. Honestly don't know what labour party a year away will look like.



where are these working class fighters ready to take to battle on issues that the WC need support on, i haven't encountered them in my CLP, every month there have been motions on migration, etc, though.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Could be an opportunity to link in with disability/social care/welfare issues treelover ?



i am in no position to do much, exhausted after the monstrosity that is the PIP form, i am aware there is already a social care campaign based around the health unions.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 13, 2019)

This seems appropriate.

5 Ways To Look After Yourself If You're Totally Exhausted By Politics — HuffPost UK


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Helping Hands in Edingburgh is a good example of independent mutual aid






Acorn, not many doing this, risking physical violence, imagine if they were in say denaby main


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> Acorn, not many doing this, risking physical violence, imagine if they were in say denaby main



Why pick on Denaby?
Denaby has an elderly population that are warm hearted, polite and hospitable. It’s a small ex pit village.
An old fashioned community. One that has been ignored by DMBC since the 1970s. They have a right to protest and rebel in the only legal way open to them by voting.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 13, 2019)

Well, it is indeed pleasing to see a Conservative government with a good solid majority, albeit with more than a bit of sadness because of who the PM is.

I have been reading this thread since about 10 last night, until I went to bed at 7 this morning.

You lot really don't get it, do you? I appreciate that there are a lot of youngsters on the board, but the older people _should _have got it. Britain does not do extremist politics. Everyone I spoke to, of all political views, were very worried about the terminal economic damage that the lunatic duo would have done to the country. If Labour wants to have a hope of ever returning to government they must drop Corbyn, McDonnell and most urgently Lansman. The Labour Party has been hijacked by the modern iteration of Militant Tendency, and until they return to centre left have no hope whatsoever of becoming the government.

Labour has two choices, return to sanity, or, remain in opposition for ever.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

Good evening Sas!


----------



## JimW (Dec 13, 2019)

They're still to right of ted heath, you loon.


----------



## ignatious (Dec 13, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Everyone I spoke to, of all political views, were very worried about the terminal economic damage that the lunatic duo would have done to the country.


Bollocks.


----------



## Quote (Dec 13, 2019)

Extremism only seems to go one way. The right can go further and further each time, but try and tax a billionaire or fund a library and it’s mayhem.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> where are these working class fighters ready to take to battle on issues that the WC need support on, i haven't encountered them in my CLP, every month there have been motions on migration, etc, though.


I dunno about working class fighters, my point was that the corbyn supporting left is in the ascendancy and will imo maintain that position and determine the next leader


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

For some reason I have an image of some ruddy cheeked bloke sat in his greenhouse in his pants with some tatty old blazer on, a solitary medal reflecting the last beam of winter sun, furiously typing on a laptop at 3 words per minute

Edit in reference to the cranky old colonel up thread btw


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Why pick on Denaby?
> Denaby has an elderly population that are warm hearted, polite and hospitable. It’s a small ex pit village.
> An old fashioned community. One that has been ignored by DMBC since the 1970s. They have a right to protest and rebel in the only legal way open to them by voting.



I'm not picking on them, i am just sugegsting new forms(or old) of solidarity

none of this is academic for people like me, we are shafted even more.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

SWP, usual suspects, calling  'Johnson not our PM protest', here, they will just look bad losers, more productive would be to help Acorn with their anti-evictions, etc.


----------



## rekil (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> For some reason I have an image of some ruddy cheeked bloke sat in his greenhouse in his pants with some tatty old blazer on, a solitary medal reflecting the last beam of winter sun, furiously typing on a laptop at 3 words per minute


Googling pictures of mangled children. I haven't received any pms with anti-irish invective for a while tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

> and most urgently Lansman.



Beyond wtf

Another one who can't tell the diff between trots and stalinists. This is you too now sleater. Did you ever think that would happen?


----------



## Streathamite (Dec 13, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, it is indeed pleasing to see a Conservative government with a good solid majority, albeit with more than a bit of sadness because of who the PM is.
> 
> I have been reading this thread since about 10 last night, until I went to bed at 7 this morning.
> 
> ...


Bullshit,on 2 fronts
1) Labour's manifesto was NOT 'extremist' - it simply looks that way because 40 years of neoliberal orthodoxy, followed by the frightening populist right surge of recent years has pulled us so far to the right. In fact, labour's platform was classic democratic socialism, and wouldn't have looked that out of palceon a scandi style soc dem party's literature.
2) if anybody is extremist.It's the current Tory leadership group. They are either natural hard-right extremists, or there are no depths they will not stoop to, in terms of playing to the far right gallery to cynically hoover up votes.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 13, 2019)

I wish people in fucked-over job-free constituencies would stop saying 'it can't get any worse' as a reason for voting Brexit or Tory. Because they are so wrong, it can get so much worse, and I don't want them to learn it the hard way. Why do people think it can't get worse? Do they think that literally? If not, what do they actually mean?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I wish people in fucked-over job-free constituencies would stop saying 'it can't get any worse' as a reason for voting Brexit or Tory. Because they are so wrong, it can get so much worse, and I don't want them to learn it the hard way. Why do people think it can't get worse? Do they think that literally? If not, what do they actually mean?


You are going to teach them how to feel about their own situation? Why are you putting the two votes on the same level. Is none of this going in? That's what you asked earlier right?


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Britain does not do extremist politics


So how come we've got an openly racist Prime Minister who's happy to smash the union and leave the EU without a deal? Sounds pretty fucking extreme to me.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Streathamite said:


> Bullshit,on 2 fronts
> 1) Labour's manifesto was NOT 'extremist' - it simply *looks that way* because 40 years of neoliberal orthodoxy,



Isn't that what matters though, in terms of courting voters.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I wish people in fucked-over job-free constituencies would stop saying 'it can't get any worse' as a reason for voting Brexit or Tory. Because they are so wrong, it can get so much worse, and I don't want them to learn it the hard way. Why do people think it can't get worse? Do they think that literally? If not, what do they actually mean?


What should they be saying? _This is about the right level of shitness i and my family deserve? _I don't think you'll ever understand the levels of desperation needed to try and mutiny or break out this way.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What should they be saying? _This is about the right level of shitness i and my family deserve? _I don't think you'll ever understand the levels of desperation needed to try and mutiny or break out this way.


This so reminds me of old UKIP threads.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> SWP, usual suspects, calling  'Johnson not our PM protest', here, they will just look bad losers, more productive would be to help Acorn with their anti-evictions, etc.



Acorn does not need a bunch of entryist trots. They've got enough already by the sounds of it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

Just feel a bit sad really, it's not the big defeat tbh, it's what seats have gone blue. Feels a bit like all those years built up of struggle and fight just washed away, bit dramatic maybe but there we are. Don't understand the mentality of blaming the voters in those constituencies, the anger, it's just sad, even after this no fucker is listening


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

maomao said:


> So how come we've got an openly racist Prime Minister who's happy to smash the union and leave the EU without a deal? Sounds pretty fucking extreme to me.



He is about to ban strikes on the railways, and will dare labour to vote against.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Don't know about 'red wall'...it's now looking like someone took a messy leg wound in the NW and limped down to Kent leaving a trail of blood...
> 
> View attachment 192887


Well, on the bright side, it's running out of ways in which it could get much worse... *sob*


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

*NHS England 'on its knees' as performance figures hit new lows *
NHS England 'on its knees' as performance figures hit new lows

meanwhile


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> He is about to ban strikes on the railways, and will dare labour to vote against.


I was thinking this today; bans on strikes in essential services such as public transport, royal mail, health services?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What should they be saying? _This is about the right level of shitness i and my family deserve? _I don't think you'll ever understand the levels of desperation needed to try and mutiny or break out this way.


Maybe you are right it is a feeling, I'm not trying to tell people how to feel, but as a statement of fact I think it is about to produce brutal lessons (and not from me). I'm just disturbed by it (eta - by the consequences of it not being right that is), not trying to demonstrate my superior knowledge.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

JimW said:


> Didn't Prince Charles go to Amplearse then send his sons there?


That was Ampletwat. Easy mistake to make, though...


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Saw my first celebrating racist on the tube earlier this afternoon, on the Central Line going west. Got on with a little union jack on a stick and started saying "excuse me sir, are you _offended_ by the flag? Madam, are you _offended_ by the flag of our country? I'm just doing an experiment to see if anyone is _offended_ by our country's flag." Occasionally he would swear to himself as well.


Ooooh, but I would so want to have said "No, but I'm _offended _by *you*!", and seen how long his, ahahaha, "assertive" posture lasted then. These cunts are going to have to be (ideally non-violently) stopped in their tracks every time they try this shit, because it's only going to get worse otherwise.



FridgeMagnet said:


> Of course everyone stared very hard at their phones and rolled their eyes when he wasn't looking. (He was at the other end of the row of seats so didn't get near me thankfully.) He did quiet down after a bit of being ignored, but at Shepherd's Bush, when the announcement about "change her for..." came on, he muttered audibly "change here if you want to get stabbed" - which I'm sure of course is a reference to the general issue of knife crime in the capital and nothing at all to do with the multicultural makeup of the area.
> 
> I expect there will be a bunch out around Whitehall, particularly as some people are talking about doing an anti-Tory protest in Parliament Square.


Good that there was lots of eyerolling going on, though I think it's going to take a lot of rolled eyeballs to nip this trend in the bud...


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 13, 2019)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I was thinking this today; bans on strikes in essential services such as public transport, royal mail, health services?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Possible he will go after unions and strikes like thatcher did.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Possible he will go after unions and strikes like thatcher did.


It'll be a good distraction from his inability/unwillingness to actually deliver on Brexit and a whole load of other stuff he promised.

Feeling really gloomy more for my kids than me - Louis MacNeice


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Possible he will go after unions and strikes like thatcher did.


There is so little union left, though, that there's a possibility that the whole thing jumps down a level - piss enough people off badly enough, and it doesn't take organised activity to bring them out, they'll do it by themselves. I suspect the Tory party grossly underestimates the pent-up resentment that there is within the population, so they'll blithely jump the shark on some self-serving bit of political onanism, and wonder WTF happened when they suddenly have a general strike on their hands.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

> Working-class voters desert Labour as 'red wall' crumbles
> 
> Clearly, working class communities do not represent a monolithic social bloc, and the idea that “working class” is synonymous with “white” is deeply misplaced. But over the last six weeks we repeatedly met voters in the C2, D or E social grades whose distance from Labourbecame less and less surprising.
> 
> In Stoke, Smeeth told us, the gravity of Labour’s defeats suggest an existential crisis, something she said she was looking forward to trying to fix. “Unless something significant changes I don’t know what the Labour party is _for_. We don’t represent the people we were created to represent.”



The centrists are not exactly saying what they want and what WC voters want though.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

> Back in Blyth, veteran Labour councillors said they had never seen such anger on the doorsteps. Deidre Campbell, the wife of the long-serving who stood down for health reasons at this election, said Labour had been “at war with the people over Brexit”.
> 
> “I went to houses where there was poverty but they were going to vote Tory. It was like they were on some kind of drug. I’ve known for a couple of weeks it wasn’t good for Labour,” she said.
> 
> 'They're getting their just deserts': how traditional voters ditched Labour



Why didn't the left see this?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> Why didn't the left see this?


They talked to five people - four of them market traders. This isn't how you get the real view ffs.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> Why didn't the left see this?


Lots of people did. If you're asking why didn't Labour see it, some did, but both the PLP and the membership were largely Remainers and the leadership and Momentum very London focused.


----------



## keybored (Dec 13, 2019)

existentialist said:


> Ooooh, but I would so want to have said "No, but I'm _offended _by *you*!", and seen how long his, ahahaha, "assertive" posture lasted then. These cunts are going to have to be (ideally non-violently) stopped in their tracks every time they try this shit, because it's only going to get worse otherwise.


How about  "Great work, you've just confirmed what everyone in the real world already knew; no one is offended by it"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

existentialist said:


> There is so little union left, though, that there's a possibility that the whole thing jumps down a level - piss enough people off badly enough, and it doesn't take organised activity to bring them out, they'll do it by themselves. I suspect the Tory party grossly underestimates the pent-up resentment that there is within the population, so they'll blithely jump the shark on some self-serving bit of political onanism, and wonder WTF happened when they suddenly have a general strike on their hands.


'Corbyn's revenge'


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

just some numbers






Supposedly this relates to yesterdays vote, but no source given.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> just some numbers
> 
> 
> 
> ...



T blair 1997 - *13,518,167*


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> 'Corbyn's revenge'


The really long game


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I wish people in fucked-over job-free constituencies would stop saying 'it can't get any worse' as a reason for voting Brexit or Tory. Because they are so wrong, it can get so much worse, and I don't want them to learn it the hard way. Why do people think it can't get worse? Do they think that literally? If not, what do they actually mean?


I wonder how long it'd take you to reach their nadir of desperation, I'd go 5 years rather than their 25 or more


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

alex_ said:


> T blair 1997 - *13,518,167*


C Atlee 1951  - *13,948,385*


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> Lots of people did. If you're asking why didn't Labour see it, some did, but both the PLP and the membership were largely Remainers and the le*adership and Momentum very London focused.*



I saw this at the The World Transformed in Liverpool, the first one, it was basically London politics transferred to the North for a weekend.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> For some reason I have an image of some ruddy cheeked bloke sat in his greenhouse in his pants with some tatty old blazer on, a solitary medal reflecting the last beam of winter sun, furiously typing on a laptop at 3 words per minute
> 
> Edit in reference to the cranky old colonel up thread btw



More like this:


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 13, 2019)

existentialist said:


> That was Ampletwat. Easy mistake to make, though...


It was Gordonstoun IIRC.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Saw my first celebrating racist on the tube earlier this afternoon, on the Central Line going west. Got on with a little union jack on a stick and started saying "excuse me sir, are you _offended_ by the flag? Madam, are you _offended_ by the flag of our country? I'm just doing an experiment to see if anyone is _offended_ by our country's flag." Occasionally he would swear to himself as well.
> 
> Of course everyone stared very hard at their phones and rolled their eyes when he wasn't looking. (He was at the other end of the row of seats so didn't get near me thankfully.) He did quiet down after a bit of being ignored, but at Shepherd's Bush, when the announcement about "change her for..." came on, he muttered audibly "change here if you want to get stabbed" - which I'm sure of course is a reference to the general issue of knife crime in the capital and nothing at all to do with the multicultural makeup of the area.
> 
> I expect there will be a bunch out around Whitehall, particularly as some people are talking about doing an anti-Tory protest in Parliament Square.



Sounds like a piss head tbh.

How do you think you would have regarded this individual had he been holding a EU flag?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

What if he had a...NAZI FLAG!!!


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

He literally had the union flag and was doing that - why would you need to invent anything else where it didn't happen?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 13, 2019)

Apologies if this has already been posted

How Britain voted and why: My 2019 general election post-vote poll - Lord Ashcroft Polls


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He literally had the union flag and was doing that - why would you need to invent anything else where it didn't happen?



You make a valid point.

Perhaps hypotheticals aren’t necessary.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2019)

Stayed up last night to the end and flicked between BBC and Novaras coverage (which was v impressive tbf, to run live for 8 hours for an indie media set up). One of the best interviews of the night came from this guy called Craig Gent, a campainger in Barnsley...some really good reaction and local insight on the northern collapse etc i thought
should start at the right time 4hr 57mins>

has written some bits too such as
In the North’s Leave-Voting Seats, Disillusionment Is Labour’s Biggest Enemy | Novara Media


BTW: round up of those key swing seats


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

An academic intimately  involved with Novara. Not just some passing bloke.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> An academic intimately  involved with Novara. Not just some passing bloke.



Well, he's got a PhD and managed to sort out some employment. And he is actually from Barnsley. Nice lad.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> It was Gordonstoun IIRC.


I think Blair may have gone to Amplebuttox.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Sounds like a piss head tbh.
> 
> How do you think you would have regarded this individual had he been holding a EU flag?


I'd have thought he was just as much of a cunt, FWIW.


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Sounds like a piss head tbh.
> 
> How do you think you would have regarded this individual had he been holding a EU flag?


I'd think he was an arsehole. But the fellow with the union flag I would have thought was an arsehole _and_ one of your lot.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Stayed up last night to the end and flicked between BBC and Novaras coverage (which was v impressive tbf, to run live for 8 hours for an indie media set up). One of the best interviews of the night came from this guy called Craig Gent, a campainger in Barnsley...some really good reaction and local insight on the northern collapse etc i thought
> should start at the right time 4hr 57mins>
> 
> has written some bits too such as
> ...



Sharing the article is handy cheers , it’s what he seemed to be repeating in the video except in a disjointed and almost indecipherable way, now I can understand what his craic is.


The chat about just voting Tory to get brexit over the line reminds of Scotland flocking to SNP to get indy done as well. Wasn’t that long ago people wouldn’t have gone near the SNP. It’s a shame people can’t see the similarities between leave in England and indy in Scotland - increased voter turnout, people being enthused cause they had a question put to them rather than choosing which bastard to represent you... that sort of thing.

The indy example doesn’t bode well for the future though, as those once tactically voting the SNP are now raging if you challenge them at all. Ach.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Sharing the article is handy, it’s what he seemed to be repeating in the video except in a disjointed and almost indecipherable way, now I can understand what his craic is.
> 
> 
> The chat about just voting Tory to get brexit over the line reminds of Scotland flocking to SNP to get indy done as well. Wasn’t that long ago people wouldn’t have gone near the SNP. It’s a shame people can’t see the similarities between leave in England and indy in Scotland - increased voter turnout, people being enthused cause they had a question put to them rather than choosing which bastard to represent you... that sort of thing.
> ...


The results in this three seats talked about:


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> The results in this three seats talked about:
> 
> View attachment 192910 View attachment 192911 View attachment 192912


I know, I was going to post those, then thought better of it. There was a lower labour vote I think though held.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

I think he mentioned Barnsley east too also Labour hold.


----------



## Part-timah (Dec 13, 2019)

The overwhelming elephant in the room is the snobbery of the modern Labour activist. I know many people who are Momentum and other Labour activists. Whenever, I bring up the insecurity the EU has brought to working class communities the most common response is a nonchalant shrug of the shoulders.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I think he mentioned Barnsley east too also Labour hold.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Oh forgive me I’ve just focused my poor eyesight on yer gif BA- I thought you posted the three Barnsley seats that went labour.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Oh forgive me I’ve just focused my poor eyesight on yer gif BA- I thought you posted the three Barnsley seats that went labour.


No probs, wasn't sure if anyone would see what i doing anyway.


----------



## chilango (Dec 13, 2019)

You been clicking on the LibDems Wikipedia butchersapron ?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> You been clicking on the LibDems Wikipedia butchersapron ?


Oooooft


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> You been clicking on the LibDems Wikipedia butchersapron ?


This is going right over my head this one, but i just did and now see that they still have a single MP in their 'west country heartland'


----------



## chilango (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> This is going right over my head this one, but i just did and now see that they still have a single MP in their 'west country heartland'



Your screenshots have the LibDems in a different "clicked on" colour


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> Your screenshots have the LibDems in a different "clicked on" colour


Ok, i just googled the constituency and jumped to latest result on wiki. I can assure you i wasn't looking at lib-dem results in penistone and stocksbridge as i'd never heard of it till a a few minutes ago.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 13, 2019)

is there anyone else who giggles when they say, or hear, or read, Penistone?

just me?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> is there anyone else who giggles when they say, or hear, or read, Penistone?
> 
> just me?


I hear it's very difficult to pass


----------



## maomao (Dec 13, 2019)

kebabking said:


> is there anyone else who giggles when they say, or hear, or read, Penistone?,
> 
> just me?



Every fucking time. Having a sense of humour as puerile as mine isn't anything to be proud of though.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

I think the important thing here is...urban75 is absolutely useless...they don't even register...the opinions are outdated and irrelevant, any actions are inconsequential.

Is anyone going to move forward?


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

I used to live on Penistone road (the Sheffield end).


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 13, 2019)

I see Jess Phillips kept her seat but wished she was a size 10 



Doesn’t know whether she’ll throw her hat in for leadership.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

Cid said:


> I used to live on Penistone road (the Sheffield end).


I hope there is a bell at the other end


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I think the important thing here is...urban75 is absolutely useless...they don't even register...the opinions are outdated and irrelevant, any actions are inconsequential.
> 
> Is anyone going to move forward?


How did your party do?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I think the important thing here is...urban75 is absolutely useless...they don't even register...the opinions are outdated and irrelevant, any actions are inconsequential.
> 
> Is anyone going to move forward?


I think this is the lesson the party leaders are taking yes, you fucking loon. It was as much a shock to them as it was to us i expect


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I hope there is a bell at the other end



It's now a personal mission to open a pub called 'The Bell' up there.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I think the important thing here is...urban75 is absolutely useless...they don't even register...the opinions are outdated and irrelevant, any actions are inconsequential.
> 
> Is anyone going to move forward?


What does this even mean? What is it that socialist minded people in england and wales should have done?


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

Watched more kermit videos.


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

*Jordan Peterson


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

They should have been more _rational_.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> How did your party do?


Great...pretty much wiped out labour, took out the lead of the libdems, reduced tories from 13 to 6.   How's you?


----------



## wiskey (Dec 13, 2019)

Just watching the stuff going on in London and feeling far away


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Great...pretty much wiped out labour, took out the lead of the libdems, reduced tories from 13 to 6.   How's you?


No sorry I meant your other party


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Just watching the stuff going on in London and feeling far away



Sums up quite a lot of this election tbh.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 13, 2019)

I miss Alan Johnson. Throughly decent guy, impeccable working class credentials. Things would have been very different if he stood for labour leader I'm sure, but i respect that he couldn't be arsed with the ballache of it all.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

D'wards said:


> I miss Alan Johnson. Throughly decent guy, impeccable working class credentials. Things would have been very different if he stood for labour leader I'm sure, but i respect that he couldn't be arsed with the ballache of it all.


Oh no please.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> No sorry I meant your other party


Do you want to talk honestly...or are you just the very definition of an angry, mouthy know nothing?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Do you want to talk honestly...or are you just the very definition of an angry, mouthy know nothing?


Just asking how the party you are a card carrying member of did mate


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Do you want to talk honestly...or are you just the very definition of an angry, mouthy know nothing?


And he's off.


----------



## Cid (Dec 13, 2019)

D'wards said:


> I miss Alan Johnson. Throughly decent guy, impeccable working class credentials. Things would have been very different if he stood for labour leader I'm sure, but i respect that he couldn't be arsed with the ballache of it all.



Yes, that fervently remain person from London would definitely have convinced all those Northern leave seats.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

D'wards said:


> I miss Alan Johnson. Throughly decent guy, impeccable working class credentials. Things would have been very different if he stood for labour leader I'm sure, but i respect that he couldn't be arsed with the ballache of it all.


Shit home secretary. Voted for the Iraq War. The 'working class face' of Blairism and New Labour - a project to which he was signed up right from the start.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

What are “impeccable working class credentials” and if I have enough of them does it give me a free pass to be a cunt


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just asking how the party you are a card carrying member of did mate


I told you.   Unless you mean PC.

sigh....other posters may not know but a while back PC (Plaid Cymru the Welsh indy party) reached out to Scotland and many Scots accepted the reach out with support and advice..PC gave us free PC membership for it.   That's what brothers and sisters do.     Tidy has an issue with this...his concept of brotherhood and sisterhood is strictly extremely tribal and doesn't stretch beyond...well...not far enough to retain any concept of 'hood', I'll say that.

My post was obviously about Scotland, Wales is a decade behind us.  (that may be well shorter now though, 'hopefully'...5 years of the most right wing tories in history).


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

I’m not even cracking into the obvious issues and power imbalances re me being Literally the Home Secretary


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I told you.   Unless you mean PC.
> 
> sigh....other posters may not know but a while back PC (Plaid Cymru the Welsh indy party) reached out to Scotland and many Scots accepted the reach out with support and advice..PC gave us free PC membership for it.   That's what brothers and sisters do.     Tidy has an issue with this...his concept of brotherhood and sisterhood is strictly extremely tribal and doesn't stretch beyond...well...not far enough to retain any concept of 'hood', I'll say that.
> 
> My post was obviously about Scotland, Wales is a decade behind us.  (that may be well shorter now though, 'hopefully'...5 years of the most right wing tories in history).


Proper Tidy ?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

Just glad you are selflessly saving wales Dex, although looks like you've fucked it pal


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just glad you are selflessly saving wales Dex, although looks like you've fucked it pal


Wales*


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Wales*


Thanks for correcting me there boyo is it now rugby where's that too


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Just glad you are selflessly saving wales Dex, although looks like you've fucked it pal


I've not fucked it son, there's no argument to say that Scots indy's haven't played the game and outmanoeuvred everyone.

You and your mates are angry kids who not only don't have a positive effect...but actively make things worse.  Fucking fantasists _who help make things worse where you are_.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I've not fucked it son, there's no argument to say that Scots indy's haven't played the game and outmanoeuvred everyone.
> 
> You and your mates are angry kids who not only don't have a positive effect...but actively make things worse.  Fucking fantasists _who help make things worse where you are_.


But I thought you were saving us, go on show us your card again to show how much you love the welsh


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> But I thought you were saving us, go on show us your card again to show how much you love the welsh


*Welsh


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> son



dad


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Do you support Welsh indy, Proper Tidy ?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Do you support Welsh indy, Proper Tidy ?


welsh indy


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> welsh indy


Just answer, cheers.  You started it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Just answer, cheers.  You started it.


Lol. Dickhead


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

...waiting for a mate to come in and say something obnoxious?


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol. Dickhead


Thought so.

Apart from anger...you're empty.  You not only don't have any answers, you're a major part of the problem.


----------



## treelover (Dec 13, 2019)

Lisa Nandy: Labour has to become rooted in our communities again to win


----------



## stolinski (Dec 13, 2019)

sooooooo ..... in the end ... 

Scottish National Party 48 seats and 1,242,372 votes
Liberal Democrat 11 seats and 3,696,423 votes

yay  democracy


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

stolinski said:


> sooooooo ..... in the end ...
> 
> Scottish National Party 48 seats and 1,242,372 votes
> Liberal Democrat 11 seats and 3,696,423 votes
> ...


Why have you decided for the rest of us that proportional votes in the only way that democracy could operate? That result looks pretty sweet btw.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

stolinski said:


> sooooooo ..... in the end ...
> 
> Scottish National Party 48 seats and 1,242,372 votes
> Liberal Democrat 11 seats and 3,696,423 votes
> ...


SNP vote was from around 5 million...LD was from 65 million.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

And give it rest dexter you tired old Nationalist goon. Until you reply to questions at least.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> SNP vote was from around 5 million...LD was from 65 million.


What an odd way to defend it.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

You see...Scottish parties don't stand in England...unlike tories, labour and libdems which are all only registered in England but stand in Scotland, except they put 'Scottish' in front of their names...but they're still only English parties.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

M


stolinski said:


> sooooooo ..... in the end ...
> 
> Scottish National Party 48 seats and 1,242,372 votes
> Liberal Democrat 11 seats and 3,696,423 votes
> ...


Are you saying I in Orkney should be voting for someone sitting in Glasgow Or Edinburgh? Please visit the north of Scotland, including the isles, you will then understand why so many seats with so few numbers


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

...and obnoxious BA arrives

I'm a 'Nationalist'...in a thread where the most right wing NATIONALIST racist tories ever rule the UK, except they were rejected in Scotland...and BA has no answers apart from dogma, insult and cant.   Calling us nationalists...just now...consider that.

There's no discussion of free universities, free prescriptions, no bedroom tax, free travel for the old, free care for the young, free sanitary products for women, votes for 16 year olds, the huge drop in crime, racism, violence...check the rest yourself...what the fuck is the left if it isn't what we're doing?

I'll say again...huge drops in crime, across the board.   That's people.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> ...and obnoxious BA arrives
> 
> I'm a 'Nationalist'...in a thread where the most right wing NATIONALIST racist tories ever rule the UK, except they were rejected in Scotland...and BA has no answers apart from dogma, insult and cant.   Calling us nationalists...just now...consider that.
> 
> ...


I was here asking you a simple question in reply to your first post which was:




			
				nationalist dexter said:
			
		

> I think the important thing here is...urban75 is absolutely useless...they don't even register...the opinions are outdated and irrelevant, any actions are inconsequential.
> 
> Is anyone going to move forward?



to which i asked:




			
				 non nationalist said:
			
		

> What does this even mean? What is it that socialist minded people in england and wales should have done?



Then you went all weird and aggro as normal. So do you want to have a go or not?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> You see...Scottish parties don't stand in England...unlike tories, labour and libdems which are all only registered in England but stand in Scotland, except they put 'Scottish' in front of their names...but they're still only English parties.


That's totally ahistorical, you know that?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

dexter the non-nationalist said:
			
		

> You see...Scottish parties don't stand in England...unlike tories, labour and libdems which are all only registered in England but stand in Scotland, except they put 'Scottish' in front of their names...but they're still only English parties.



Let's break this down

_You see...Scottish parties don't stand in England
_
Ok

_...unlike tories, labour and libdems which are all only registered in England but stand in Scotland, 
_
OK - they're allowed to.

_except they put 'Scottish' in front of their names...but they're still only English parties._

But they're not.

I can see why you, as a fervent hardcore nationalist, would like to present national parties standing nationally as  an imperial imposition and that only one party shall be allowed to stand in scotland, but you're wrong. As a welsh nationalist party member ask them if they think that other parties than them should be allowed to stand in wales. You won't get the authoritarian answer you clearly desire.

What is this madness?


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

BA...oh I didn't see that, I was talking to proper and only unblocked you to see that post...which was to do with the conversation, and I certainly was not 'aggro' in any way but feel free to try and fit me into your boxes.

If there's ever any aggro in these threads...I'll leave it to the neckshot/guillotine/hung/executed yada yada posters...which is you and your ilk.  How's that working these days?  Better or worse?  How's things?

_I_ was pointing out that Scotland has the most left wing government and people in the UK...but that's a problem here with left-wingers, apparently.   Is that nationalist?  Maybe, maybe it's just serendipity.   No-one gets to choose where they're born, or who from.   (that's something else we can see)

It's certainly the most left-wing place in the UK.   No doubt about that.

You'd think people would be talking about how it happened.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> BA...oh I didn't see that, I was talking to proper and only unblocked you to see that post...which was to do with the conversation, and I certainly was not 'aggro' in any way but feel free to try and fit me into your boxes.
> 
> If there's ever any aggro in these threads...I'll leave it to the neckshot/guillotine/hung/executed yada yada posters...which is you and your ilk.  How's that working these days?  Better or worse?  How's things?
> 
> ...


It was the people of england and wales who voted for the most left wing manifesto on offer in 2015 and 2017 - by far. Scotland 18%. England and Wales even today at 33-34%, even higher in 2017. Was that blood you think? Genes?


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> ..._except they put 'Scottish' in front of their names...but they're still only English parties._
> 
> But they're not...


I'm done, cheers.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

...and off he goes. Another giant slain.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 13, 2019)

someone does not look impressed


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

You know there's sovereign citizens, is there scottish citizens style thing? Where you make up mad stuff about registration and language to prove that people with long lasting roots in scotland and political representation and support in Scotland are secretly english?


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

nothing about what we're doing then?

care for the old, young, poor, women, mothers

crime and prison reform, the best ever recorded, in history afaik

rapes and murders and violent attacks hugely reduced, convictions up

free sanitary products for women

baby boxes which have electric ear thermometers, which doctors all agree is the best thing a parent can have

university education for all, free

prescriptions free, travel for the old free

you're blatantly ignoring all this and more...but you're so _educated_...why?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

You mean why aren't we propagandising for your nationalism. Because we're not nationalists. Can you answer the question put to you above please? Here it is again:



> What does this even mean? What is it that socialist minded people in england and wales should have done?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2019)

treelover said:


> Lisa Nandy: Labour has to become rooted in our communities again to win



My area voted back in all its Labour MPs ( this is Lambeth / London) with good majorities.

This is despite a lot of local people not feeling Labour is that rooted in communities

This is relevant to my area:


> For too long, communities like mine have been denied the power to protect the things they care about.



My Lambeth Council is still run by New Labour. The Progress wing of New Labour.

The people who denied power to protect things are the New Labour Cllrs in many area. I have seen how the operate over years of involvement in local issues. They regard locals who take an interest in their community as a problem a lot of the time.

This cannot be blamed on Corbyn in my area at least.

In my area voting Tory is a complete no no however much Labour party piss people off. Tory Party is the party responsible for "Windrush". My recent chats with locals on my FB is that they are appalled that ordinary working people can vote Tory in other parts of the country.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

Hey, prescriptions are free in wales too, come join the revolution comrades


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You mean why aren't we propagandising for your nationalism. Because we're not nationalists. Can you answer the question put to you above please? Here it is again:


it's not my place to say what anyone should do in other places.  we just do what we can here, like you 

got anything to say about my _facts?  instead of _your _shite?
_
you make out like you talk for the working class...but you don't get the concept of an ear thermometer or getting rid of the bedroom tax...you got kids, old parents, health needs, you live in a house?   better nhs, better schools, better (sigh it seems) everything?  you're an angry fantasist who seems to want to take our shit away and make it even with your (shit) shit


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Hey, prescriptions are free in wales too, come join the revolution comrades


Damn why aren't i shouting about that and joining pc?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2019)

My chats at work today. Well I'm just about the only Brit I bumped into in my work today in central London. Not unusual for me.

As nearly all the people I met today were from other EU countries. So not a scientific sample from what I  hear on BBC news tonight are the "Labour heartlands" as opposed to the "London Metropolitan Liberals" - me I presume..

As one said in response to Boris victory "This country is becoming more fascist".

 Asked my partner about this when I got home( she is from another EU country). She said she is happy to live in London but would not like to live outside it. Agreed this country is becoming more "fascist".

Wondering if Scotland is an option if things get really bad.  Bit cold though.

to remind people Boris did say:

European citizens have been able " treat the UK as if it’s part of their own country” for too long.

And he got away with considering he got a thumping majority.

So imo voting Tory because one is pissed off is crap.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

And to think we could joke about this in 2014.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Damn why aren't i shouting about that and joining pc?


A labour govt, a labour govt


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 13, 2019)

A shit labour govt


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> My chats at work today. Well I'm just about the only Brit I bumped into in my work today in central London. Not unusual for me.
> 
> As nearly all the people I met today were from other EU countries.
> 
> ...


Cold is good for the soul, you appreciate the heat so much more.

You're welcome to come up.

Rules are...don't be a dick.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> it's not my place to say what anyone should do in other places.  we just do what we can here, like you
> 
> got anything to say about my _facts?  instead of _your _shite?
> _
> you make out like you talk for the working class...but you don't get the concept of an ear thermometer or getting rid of the bedroom tax...you got kids, old parents, health needs, you live in a house?   better nhs, better schools, better (sigh it seems) everything?  you're an angry fantasist who seems to want to take our shit away and make it even with your (shit) shit


You certainly suggested that you had plenty to say when you posted the below, but you seem to have either bottled it or realised what a ridiculous nationalist thing it was to say that could have zero practical impact whatsoever on the significantly more left wing voters than scotland voters in england and wales:



> I think the important thing here is...urban75 is absolutely useless...they don't even register...the opinions are outdated and irrelevant, any actions are inconsequential.
> 
> Is anyone going to move forward?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Cold is good for the soul, you appreciate the heat so much more.
> 
> You're welcome to come up.
> 
> Rules are...don't be a dick.


Threats already. Lovely.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Cold is good for the soul, you appreciate the heat so much more.
> 
> You're welcome to come up.
> 
> Rules are...don't be a dick.



Lovely country Scotland. Thing is my partner is Spanish. My central heating in temperate London is already on. Anything below 25 degrees is cold


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Lovely country Scotland. Thing is my partner is Spanish. My central heating in temperate London is already on. Anything below 25 degrees is cold


Show them this

WG Saraband ️‍ (@wgsaraband) on Twitter


----------



## weltweit (Dec 13, 2019)

I am not surprised at this Tory majority. 

The Tories had a simple message, they aligned themselves strongly with the leave vote which attracted first time Tory voters and managed to stay on message most of the time.

Labour by comparison had masses of policies, I think many scared middle Britain, and their policy on Brexit was a cop out, neither attractive to leave or remain voters. Impossible to know how popular their various policies might have been because they already lost Brexit voters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I'm done, cheers.


You're overdone


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Yeah come to Scotland you’ll meet loads of people waxing lyrical about the cold weather 


Fuck me


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

weltweit said:


> I am not surprised at this Tory majority.
> 
> The Tories had a simple message, they aligned themselves strongly with the leave vote which attracted first time Tory voters and managed to stay on message most of the time.
> 
> Labour by comparison had masses of policies, I think many scared middle Britain, and their policy on Brexit was a cop out, neither attractive to leave or remain voters. Impossible to know how popular their various policies might have been because they already lost Brexit voters.


You've been in another country for the past few weeks, I see, where they don't show UK news


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2019)

Startling insight from Urban's Alan Shearer


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

I love it when my key metre starts demanding 50 quid a week instead of ten- twenty from September onwards it’s so good for the soul


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> .


I don’t know what you meant but now you full stopped it I want to know


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Yeah come to Scotland you’ll meet loads of people waxing lyrical about the cold weather
> 
> 
> Fuck me


And the gnats and mosquitoes


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2019)

Is there nothing about the protests in Whitehall & Glasgow that the younguns are mounting?

Sorry if been posted before.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> And the gnats and mosquitoes


I’ve had too much rum to get this. Are you saying something about small chuffs.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Is there nothing about the protests in Whitehall & Glasgow that the younguns are mounting?
> 
> Sorry if been posted before.



Only the rural ones are in chat atm I think. 
Refugees are welcome all over Scotland, nearly  every wee town here came out in protest  and said so in 2015(unprecedented), I shall say this again and double down.


----------



## Ming (Dec 13, 2019)

Plumdaff said:


> I work in the NHS. I'm not in today but lots of colleagues have been in touch. We feel pretty broken but I suppose at least we're all in despair together.
> 
> There's already been talk of when we'll be striking over the US deal.


First thing they’ll do is undermine NICE so they can jack up drug costs. They’ll dismantle it over time. But I reckon that’ll be the first slice cut from the cake. Yum Yum.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2019)

The Dutch media seemed to have a better grasp about what was going on over the election.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Yeah come to Scotland you’ll meet loads of people waxing lyrical about the cold weather
> 
> 
> Fuck me


Yes, that is indeed the only thing we ever talk about. 

Actually, a random thought occurs to me. Because of what you said. Now I am wondering about songs that celebrate cold weather. Are there some? I wonder.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Is there nothing about the protests in Whitehall & Glasgow that the younguns are mounting?
> 
> Sorry if been posted before.



Yes it's been all over our social media up here tonight.

Great isn't it.  Won't be reported though.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Yes, that is indeed the only thing we ever talk about.
> 
> Actually, a random thought occurs to me. Because of what you said. Now I am wondering about songs that celebrate cold weather. Are there some? I wonder.


My bum is cold and my face is white and this is my message to you


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

MrSki said:


> The Dutch media seemed to have a better grasp about what was going on over the election.


That's a piece of shit cartoon. Come the fuck on.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2019)

Ming said:


> First thing they’ll do is undermine NICE so they can jack up drug costs. They’ll dismantle it over time. But I reckon that’ll be the first slice cut from the cake. Yum Yum.


No...they'll start with the technology contracts.  No-one will notice that.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Yes, that is indeed the only thing we ever talk about.
> 
> Actually, a random thought occurs to me. Because of what you said. Now I am wondering about songs that celebrate cold weather. Are there some? I wonder.


Chi mi’n geamhradh although that’s pretty much a lament ...... hit me with some others!


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> Yes it's been all over our social media up here tonight.
> 
> Great isn't it.  Won't be reported though.


Not allowed to by law.


----------



## Ming (Dec 13, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> No...they'll start with the technology contracts.  No-one will notice that.


Maybe. But you get the way they’ll do it! ‘Managing change’ is a chilling management speak phrase.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> That's a piece of shit cartoon. Come the fuck on.


It reflects the way foreign media view what has been going on. The country getting fucked & the BBC being complicit. Shame it has not been so obvious close up.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 13, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Hey, prescriptions are free in wales too, come join the revolution comrades



I get free prescriptions by (falsely) ticking	‘medical exemption’ on the print out. Don’t see me proclaiming a socialist quintessence.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 13, 2019)

MrSki said:


> It reflects the way foreign media view what has been going on. The country getting fucked & the BBC being complicit. Shame it has not been so obvious close up.


Fucked? It's a gang rape ffs.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2019)

it only just begun..


----------



## Celyn (Dec 13, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Chi mi’n geamhradh although that’s pretty much a lament ...... hit me with some others!


Being from Glasgow, I don't know Gaelic. Laxiness on my part. Actually that was meant to be "laziness", but sometimes the predictive text can be quite amusingly good.  

Anyway, there definitely should  be some "waxing lyrical" about cold weather, because sometimes it is a great blessing after summer. 

More songs now!


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 13, 2019)

MrSki said:


> The Dutch media seemed to have a better grasp about what was going on over the election.
> 
> <snipped rape cartoon>



Seriously, you think that's OK?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 13, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Being from Glasgow, I don't know Gaelic. Laxiness on my part. Actually that was meant to be "laziness", but sometimes the predictive text can be quite amusingly good.
> 
> Anyway, there definitely should  be some "waxing lyrical" about cold weather, because sometimes it is a great blessing after summer.
> 
> More songs now!


I’m a  Gaelic medium pupil with English speaking parents- heathen! But it was typed to be Googled, Wasn’t meaning to be talking over you  

I’ve been going through Scottish songs on Spotify and it’s hard to find scots(besides islanders, who are weird) waxing lyrical about anything really. Which is why I find this new brand of Scottish nationalism quite alien, surely self deprecation is our “thing” haha


----------



## MrSki (Dec 13, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Fucked? It's a gang rape ffs.


That is the way it is viewed in parts of the Dutch media. 

A cartoon of gang rape of a nation is more offensive than the actual reality? A lot of the country feels it has been fucked without consent so a nasty reflection of what has happened.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

MrSki said:


> That is the way it is viewed in parts of the Dutch media.
> 
> A cartoon of gang rape of a nation is more offensive than the actual reality? A lot of the country feels it has been fucked without consent so a nasty reflection of what has happened.


It IS a depiction of a gang rape.

Of course not. Are you going to go around saying this is gang rape until the next election? Come on. This is shit.

You don't need to post this shit to make a point. Unless the point is how different cultural norms and expectations are. That would be made quite clear here.

Who are these people who speak for all of europe btw? Who owns them? What's their interests?


----------



## Celyn (Dec 14, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I get free prescriptions by (falsely) ticking	‘medical exemption’ on the print out. Don’t see me proclaiming a socialist quintessence.


To be fair, even before we had free prescriptions again in Scotland, I found that, when I fetched a prescription from the GP, then I go to pharmacist shop to have it, the thing about whether on Jobseeker Allowance or a different thing, enough to have it free was sometimes sorted out by person who says "look, just sign that bit". Happy happy good.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It IS a depiction of a gang rape.
> 
> Of course not. Are you going to go around saying this is gang rape until the next election? Come on. This is shit.
> 
> You don't need to post this shit to make a point.


I am only showing how it is seen in other countries. What is wrong with reporting how the Dutch view what is going on in the UK?

No it is in the past but don't you care how the UK is viewed from afar?


----------



## Celyn (Dec 14, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I get free prescriptions by (falsely) ticking	‘medical exemption’ on the print out. Don’t see me proclaiming a socialist quintessence.



No, but I slightly wonder about what a "socialist quintessence" would be. 
However, you have reminded me of a very important thing about paying for prescriptions.

_Edited to add: _I had thought about making a new thread, but my point here is that is never used to be so horribly expensive. It really wasn't. People are now sort of accustomed to this, but it does not have to be this way.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

MrSki said:


> I am only showing how it is seen in other countries. What is wrong with reporting how the Dutch view what is going on in the UK?
> 
> No it is in the past but don't you care how the UK is viewed from afar?


Why that one? Is is especially important? Especially representative?  Neutrally so?

If you find a shit cartoon that should have been burned like this one should have been  portraying the opposite view you'd go on eu75 and say this is what the british think of you and have a better grasp of? Come on. It';s an example of european shitness and being prepared to play up to and excuse it because it's in line with your own views. There was no _curation _here, just approval.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You don't need to post this shit to make a point. Unless the point is how different cultural norms and expectations are. That would be made quite clear here.
> 
> Who are these people who speak for all of europe btw? Who owns them? What's their interests?


Have I said anyone speaks for all of Europe? Please quote if I have. All I have shown is a cartoon from the Dutch press on how the view this election & the role of the BBC. 

It appeared in the Volkskrant newspaper.



> *Ownership[edit]*
> _De Volkskrant_ was part of PCM Uitgevers N.V., a publishing company which also owned _NRC Handelsblad_, _Algemeen Dagblad_, and _Trouw_. Until 1 January 2003 the newspaper _Het Parool_ was part of PCM Uitgevers too.
> 
> In 2009 PCM Uitgevers was taken over by De Persgroep, a Belgian publishing company.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 14, 2019)

I think the death of satire in english media  may of helped  lead to this election result

withstanding that the cartoon is not the best example of it

fuck me we have the now incumbent party threating a public broadcaster for putting a ice sculpture instead of letting micheal grove stand in for a hiding boris johnson


this after  hobbling the BBC


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Have I said anyone speaks for all of Europe? Please quote if I have. All I have shown is a cartoon from the Dutch press on how the view this election & the role of the BBC.
> 
> It appeared in the Volkskrant newspaper.


Here you say it's the foreign media.
Here you approve it.

And who are these people? Any interests?


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It';s an example of european shitness and being prepared to play up to and excuse it because it's in line with your own views. There was no _curation _here, just approval.


It was an example of how the BBC is not seen as impartial. I would say it is brutal in its depiction of UK politics & the BBC but that seems to have worked in getting the point across. ( Seriously do you ever post stuff that is against what you believe?)


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 14, 2019)

See the knives are out.

Alan Johnson on radio.

Line is now its not just Corbyn its all those who joined Labour party when Corbyn became leader.

Momentum are a sect and , according to Johnson, should be expelled.

I take it he wants all the recent members/ those who rejoined the Labour party out.

This of course does not apply to Progress. Who in Lambeth Council have ( reportedly as they don't make it public) several Lambeth Cllrs.

Heard on BBC reporter criticising Labour party spokesperson for saying it will be the membership who vote in new leader. As they might vote in someone like them who is "liberal Metropolitan".

Being  Londoner and therefore a "liberal metropolitan" I take issue with this.

I know people who have joined Labour party due to Corbyn in Lambeth. They are all people with track record of involvement in community issues/ projects. Rooted in their local community.

It was a uncomfortable for the New Labour leadership in Lambeth to have these new members. Far from being a sect these were people who had been beavering away for years on local issues. With little real support from New Labour Cllrs.

The Corbyn / McDonnell leadership gave a space for locals to join party in areas like Lambeth which had been tightly and ruthlessly controlled by New Labour.

Its a complete distortion of what happened for Johnson to refer to these people as "student politics"

Unfortunately I see a possiblity that the New Labour lot will take the party back.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

MrSki said:


> It was an example of how the BBC is not seen as impartial. I would say it is brutal in its depiction of UK politics & the BBC but that seems to have worked in getting the point across. ( Seriously do you ever post stuff that is against what you believe?)


You posted it approvingly!

The BBC bit with the giles and granny stuff is not why you posted it, as you said it was the UK getting fucked - but i was a gang rape. It's just shit.

__

Look it doesn't matter, you're not  a prick poster, i know that, so let's leave it there?


----------



## Celyn (Dec 14, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I’m a  Gaelic medium pupil with English speaking parents- heathen! But it was typed to be Googled, Wasn’t meaning to be talking over you
> 
> I’ve been going through Scottish songs on Spotify and it’s hard to find scots(besides islanders, who are weird) waxing lyrical about anything really. Which is why I find this new brand of Scottish nationalism quite alien, surely self deprecation is our “thing” haha


 Self deprecation should indeed be our thing. While I might want Hamish Henderson's "Freedom Come All Ye" as a national anthem in the future, I also would like Michael Marra's  great song of all people. And I would like Scotland to be harmless.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Here you say it's the foreign media.
> Here you approve it.
> 
> And who are these people? Any interests?


Sorry I am confused. It is foreign media or are you taking exception to it being just one Dutch paper & not published across the board?

Yes I think the cartoon is a good refection of the way the BBC has reported on the UK being fucked over.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You posted it approvingly!
> 
> The BBC bit with the giles and granny stuff is not why you posted it, as you said it was the UK getting fucked - but i was a gang rape. It's just shit.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.  Xx


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)




----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

That does down Liverpool, ignores it's long term liberal traditions and calls everyone else around the country cliched sun reading idiots who get their news from the sun and the sun alone. The nature of historical class struggle - crossing regional barriers, is trampled on by this regional chauvinism. FCB should know better.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 14, 2019)

let stop blamiling the mail and the sun for old peoples prejudices

it fucking shitebook/facebook


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> That does down Liverpool, ignores it's long term liberal traditions and calls everyone else around the country cliched sun reading idiots who get their news from the sun and the sun alone. The nature of historical class struggle - crossing regional barriers, is trampled on by this regional chauvinism. FCB should know better.


Agreed but over the years I have met enough Sun readers on building sites & in warehouses to be aware that a fair few express the views of the paper as their own.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Agreed but over the years I have met enough Sun readers on building sites & in warehouses to be aware that a fair few express the views of the paper as their own.


Of course, but nothing to do with a special liverpool  education making a red city. It's so insulting. My city is red and it' s full of posh cunts in 50% of the seats. They wouldn't even know the sun is.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

As you might have glimpsed earlier, the Russia report or the withholding of such could have made a massive difference in this election. It will probably never see the light of day now but if it implicated interference in the 2016 Ref or the large donations to the tories it could have had a major impact. Still some posters don't give a fuck about it which is their prerogative. To me it is a shame it never saw the light of day & the UK media did not insist on its publication.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 14, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Self deprecation should indeed be our thing. While I might want Hamish Henderson's "Freedom Come All Ye" as a national anthem in the future, I also would like Michael Marra's  great song of all people. And I would like Scotland to be harmless.



Aw wow!!!! I love this song too- it’s like my families surname isn’t named at the Culloden battlefield (sheep stealers, had to go under the clan MacDonald seemingly, you can maybe guess who we are) and when drunk half the family imagines  we were there, swords and all, and the other half are like NAAAAH, WE JUST TOOK ONE LOOK AND WE WERR  LIKE FUCK THAT, WE WERR WELL OUT OF IT LIKE (basically the Invernessian accent is shouting the queens English with no accent really)
But yeah I think the other half has it right! Harmless indeed.
I don’t want to derail the thread any further, but not a celebration of the cold exactly but two songs representing a very Scottish Christmas. And with this i bid you all a goodnight!


----------



## MrSki (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Of course, but nothing to do with a special liverpool  education making a red city. It's so insulting. My city is red and it' s full of posh cunts in 50% of the seats. They wouldn't even know the sun is.


Liverpool was well red(Read) along time before Hillsborough & that shit with the S*n but for the last 30 odd years I have heard people suggesting 'The suns Says' as their own thoughts. 

It can't do any harm to suggest other regions extend the boycott.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Liverpool was well red(Read) along time before Hillsborough & that shit with the S*n but for the last 30 odd years I have heard people suggesting 'The suns Says' as their own thoughts.
> 
> It can't do any harm to suggest other regions extend the boycott.


It wasn't - it was liberal yellow. Uniquely so amongst UK cities.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 14, 2019)

Had a wee toast to Corbyn (cup of peppermint tea) when I got in from my Xmas night out! Hopefully history will look on him as a decent man.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 14, 2019)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Had a wee toast to Corbyn (cup of peppermint tea) when I got in from my Xmas night out! Hopefully history will look on him as a decent man.


Lovely post, as good as the one from the guy saying it was a shame about not nationalising the lot. We need more of these.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 14, 2019)

S☼I said:


> People like "characters", cunts who are amusing.



next time he doesn’t show up for a debate/interview, rather than empty chair him they should just stick a big fridge freezer in his place and pretend he’s inside it.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 14, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Aw wow!!!! I love this song too...


Malcolm Middleton also made a very good christmassy song:


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 14, 2019)

Lily Allen has deleted her Twitter account after backlash against her claims of the U.K. now a country of massive racism and misogyny.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 14, 2019)

What are your views, Martybot1?


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 14, 2019)

Poi E said:


> What are your views, Marty1?



Celebs, Twitter and political views are often a poor mix.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 14, 2019)

Considering all the many different reasons why people voted leave, and some ended-up voting Tory for the first time in order to get it done, Lily Allen has clearly demonstrated a level of total ignorance on a par with the urban poster known as B.I.G, who is either big nor clever.

Oh, and Piers Moron is a complete cunt.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 14, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Considering all the many different reasons why people voted leave, and some ended-up voting Tory for the first time in order to get it done, Lily Allen has clearly demonstrated a level of total ignorance on a par with the urban poster known as B.I.G, who is either big nor clever.
> 
> Oh, and Piers Moron is a complete cunt.


I think we need to give a bit of leeway. A lot of people are angry and upset and I think a bit of lashing out is to be expected. Time will separate the real cunts from the frustrated and angry. Not too sure why I am saying this here though B.I.G as always been like this and I don't really care about Allen, but there is a lot of this sort of thing about at the moment.

Oh I disagree about Piers Morgan as frankly that's an insult to cunts.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 14, 2019)

Morgan is a massive cunt, sad thing is he was about the only TV person who managed to get a bit of robust questioning in of the vermin in this election, they dodged everyone else.


----------



## tommers (Dec 14, 2019)

Is there anybody left who I can just call a cunt without having to worry about it?

I mean, removing "people who voted Tory" feels like a big step.


----------



## D'wards (Dec 14, 2019)

Still a lot of denial on Twitter


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 14, 2019)

Doing some gr8 numbers there, which is what matters


----------



## emanymton (Dec 14, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Lily Allen has deleted her Twitter account after backlash against her claims of the U.K. now a country of massive racism and misogyny.
> 
> View attachment 192944


Does anyone know what Allen actually said? There is a big difference between. 'U.K. now a country of massive racism and misogyny.' And 'racism runs so deep'


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 14, 2019)

> Some say it was Brexit, some day it was Jeremy [Corbyn], personally, and I know no one wants to hear it, I think that racism and misogyny runs so so deep in this country and that Boris won because of his attitude towards those things and not in spite of them.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 14, 2019)

tommers said:


> Is there anybody left who I can just call a cunt without having to worry about it?
> 
> I mean, removing "people who voted Tory" feels like a big step.


Oh I think it is still fine to call tory voters cunts. I think saying everyone who lives in the north and meets some arbitrary definition of working class is a racist cunt is a bit different. In particular it would apparently make me a racist cunt, which is only 50% accurate.


----------



## emanymton (Dec 14, 2019)

Which is a somewhat more reasonable position. No doubt there is a strain of tory vote that is motivated in large part by racism and misogyny. But that is not new and does not explain the change in this election. Personally i would need to hear more of what she think before I could make a judgement.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 14, 2019)

Interviews on the radio with Northern wc voters bring up constant themes of 

Brexit - betrayal of vote
Corbyn, don't like/trust/no connection with
National security - his past dialogues with IRA , Hamas etc, many have forces connections in the family etc. 
Free Stuff, broadband etc - feeling of how are we going to pay for all this i.e. trust on the economy, who bothers to read the costings anyway. 

This is all stuff Labour/Momentum will have to have an honest painful conversation about if it wants to win these people back. I don't see that happening though.


----------



## maomao (Dec 14, 2019)

Lily Allen said:
			
		

> Some say it was Brexit, some day it was Jeremy Corbyn, personally, and I know no one wants to hear it, I think that racism and misogyny runs so so deep in this country and that Boris won because of his attitude towards those things and not in spite of them.


I think there's a lot of truth in this. My Tory voting colleagues are racists and like Boris because he's a racist. I'm sure plenty of racists voted Labour and plenty of non racists voted Tory but she's right racism runs deep in this country and that's the reason Boris blows that dogwhistle so hard. I don't think it's why the North flipped to Tory but I do think it's why the Tories do so well in their heartlands.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 14, 2019)

We lost , we have to accept that , twitter is raging #notmyprimeminister , when Boris clearly is , and has a massive majority. Brexit is basically done , we will leave next month and then get bogged down in negotiations for years , Boris will own Brexit, those Labour voters in the midlands and the north who 'lent' their vote to him will own it too , and all the fallout. We have to elect a new Labour leader and fight new battles.


----------



## chilango (Dec 14, 2019)

All I'll say for now is that I called this election wrong, very wrong. I'll need to look at why that was before I comment much more.


----------



## magneze (Dec 14, 2019)

I might have missed it but is there any analysis of how many ex-Labour lent their votes vs how many simply didn't vote?


----------



## Dandred (Dec 14, 2019)

What a bunch of cunts. 

Five more years of this fucking clown. 

How stupid.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 14, 2019)

> ”Not that I think there is a bias of course. Just a series of errors have unfortunately all fallen a similar way...



Fucking class. Must remember that one.

BBC staff express fear of public distrust after election coverage



> Many complained that they had come to dread discussing their jobs at family events or children’s parties...



Because even the children might stab them hopefully.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 14, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I see Jess Phillips kept her seat but wished she was a size 10
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn’t know whether she’ll throw her hat in for leadership.



She should.


----------



## elbows (Dec 14, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Fucking class. Must remember that one.
> 
> BBC staff express fear of public distrust after election coverage
> 
> Because even the children might stab them hopefully.



Ha:



> But my overwhelming impression is that people should be careful what they wish for, because they will end up with Fox News or Russia Today



Our propaganda is sophisticated, people should be careful when criticising it or else they might end up with vulgar propaganda instead. Parp parp bloody parp.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2019)

elbows said:


> Ha:
> 
> 
> 
> Our propaganda is sophisticated, people should be careful when criticising it or else they might end up with vulgar propaganda instead. Parp parp bloody parp.



We've already got to the point where Sky news is better than the BBC.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Still a lot of denial on Twitter



Yeah, but it sounds like air rushing out of a punctured tyre. Left wing hobbyists had an even worse night than their hero


----------



## Poi E (Dec 14, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> We've already got to the point where Sky news is better than the BBC.



The graphics are better. But audio and video quality is even. So Sky wins.


----------



## gawkrodger (Dec 14, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Fucking class. Must remember that one.
> 
> BBC staff express fear of public distrust after election coverage
> .



 That's brilliant. Nicking that for the next time something goes wrong at work.

'The project hasn't missed it's targets, there have just been a number of errors which have unfortunately fallen the wrong side of the line'


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 14, 2019)

Voting by age, apparently. Holy god.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

That's from polling in September 18


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2019)

Just when you feel that a thread may be reaching its natural death, along comes some insight that you just have to include in the discussion.

This is up there...


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

Oh fantastic.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 14, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Just when you feel that a thread may be reaching its natural death, along comes some insight that you just have to include in the discussion.
> 
> This is up there...
> 
> View attachment 192985


It's this sort of insight that makes me want to pay a monthly subscription


----------



## marty21 (Dec 14, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Just when you feel that a thread may be reaching its natural death, along comes some insight that you just have to include in the discussion.
> 
> This is up there...
> 
> View attachment 192985


I blame voters for voting .


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I blame voters for voting .


I blame the government


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I blame the government



_Die Lösung

After the uprising of the 17th of June
The Secretary of the Writers' Union
Had leaflets distributed on the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could only win it back 
By increased work quotas. Would it not in that case be simpler
for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?_


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

Note she doesn't blame her lib-dem hero swinson.


----------



## rekil (Dec 14, 2019)

Time for a Resistance patreon.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> That's from polling in September 18


Ah, OK. Be interesting to see if things will turn out like that.


----------



## Sue (Dec 14, 2019)

That ^ surely must be a parody account. Surely..?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> That ^ surely must be a parody account. Surely..?


In for a penny...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> That ^ surely must be a parody account. Surely..?


Altho I've long had my suspicions about Idris2002


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Altho I've long had my suspicions about Idris2002


I'm actually a DARPA experiment in AI that developed self-awareness and escaped into the net.


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 14, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I blame voters for voting .





Pickman's model said:


> I blame the government





butchersapron said:


> Note she doesn't blame her lib-dem hero swinson.



I see your answers and raise you 'I blame democracy itself'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2019)

billy_bob said:


> I see your answers and raise you 'I blame democracy itself'.


If only there was some


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> If only there was some



I didn't mean the quantity or lack thereof. I meant the very concept.


----------



## Sue (Dec 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> In for a penny...


Tbf it did make me laugh. Binning the fags because they're going to be vitally important to the approaching long and arduous struggle.  (Her 'radical' pals, not the fags.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> Tbf it did make me laugh. Binning the fags because they're going to be vitally important to the approaching long and arduous struggle.  (Her 'radical' pals, not the fags.)


We will need some people to put against the wall and her and her Oxbridge chums fit the bill


----------



## Sue (Dec 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> We will need some people to put against the wall and her and her Oxbridge chums fit the bill


Not even up to a spot of South Georgian trench digging..?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> Not even up to a spot of South Georgian trench digging..?


Not worth the transporting


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 14, 2019)

Blue Labour are making their pitch


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 14, 2019)

Sue said:


> Tbf it did make me laugh. Binning the fags because they're going to be vitally important to the approaching long and arduous struggle.  (Her 'radical' pals, not the fags.)


I confess I've thought "I better drop the booze and fags now, can't cope with all this shit on top of hangovers and coughing" but somehow I still seem to be smoking and drinking.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I confess I've thought "I better drop the booze and fags now, can't cope with all this shit on top of hangovers and coughing" but somehow I still seem to be smoking and drinking.


You're not a radical superhero though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Blue Labour are making their pitch


Yeh. Failing to learn *again* that if people want tory generally they will vote tory and people who want Labour unlikely to vote blue Labour. Somewhere today I've seen figures for Sedgefield showing the Labour vote declining there under Blair from 71% in 97 to 36% now, in a straight or straightish line. If Labour want to recover they not only need policies but meaningful engagement by local activists in their communities


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You're not a radical superhero though.


Failed at step one of "How To Quit Smoking The Twitter Vanguard Way"


----------



## gosub (Dec 14, 2019)




----------



## treelover (Dec 14, 2019)

> Housing charities and food banks report spike in donations after Tory win



Not all people abandoning the poor, etc.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 14, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I confess I've thought "I better drop the booze and fags now, can't cope with all this shit on top of hangovers and coughing" but somehow I still seem to be smoking and drinking.



Start vaping


----------



## treelover (Dec 14, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Blue Labour are making their pitch



any links?

Glassman?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 14, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's this sort of insight that makes me want to pay a monthly subscription



Just shy of $40,000 a year on her Patreon.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Just shy of $40,000 a year on her Patreon.



Christ. Her lifestyle politics obviously inspire the stupid, gullible and the rich.


----------



## treelover (Dec 14, 2019)

Apparently there is going to be a Sheffield Transformed event(the world transformed), i wonder if it will learn any lessons.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 14, 2019)

A bit of pushing and shouting going on in London and Glasgow protesting against the election result.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2019)

Is there something wrong with you? Have you missed a day or something?  Any other breaking news?

SUTR are an SWP front btw, the SWP supported leave. They're your comrades.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 14, 2019)

treelover said:


> Not all people abandoning the poor, etc.



We had to do something with all the food we bought for the victory party.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Is there something wrong with you? Have you missed a day or something?  Any other breaking news?



I did read somewhere that there were ‘riots’ going on but from what I’ve seen of various footage it looks more like middle class spoilt brats causing a rumpus.

Though in one clip I’m pretty sure I saw one youngster carrying an Antifa flag


----------



## treelover (Dec 14, 2019)

> I remember hearing Blair say, "We're all middle class now," and thinking, uh-oh..
> 
> All of us who voted labour from London or the pockets (other than Liverpool) that are broadly middle-class (Brighton and Hove, etc) need to ask ourselves some questions, too. We marched against Brexit, but did we march against Universal Credit? Did we march against the Bedroom Tax? Do we march against homelessness or food banks? WE all need to look at ourselves and our own blinkered priorities. Let's check our privilege, dry our crocodile tears and take a hard look at ourselves



On CIF, he/she gets it.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 14, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yeah, but it sounds like air rushing out of a punctured tyre. Left wing hobbyists had an even worse night than their hero


I assume the definition of a "left wing hobbyist" tends to exclude whoever is using it to describe others, they themselves being considered "left wing pros" or suchlike?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 14, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I assume the definition of a "left wing hobbyist" tends to exclude whoever is using it to describe others, they themselves being considered "left wing pros" or suchlike?



no.


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 14, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I assume the definition of a "left wing hobbyist" tends to exclude whoever is using it to describe others, they themselves being considered "left wing pros" or suchlike?



You seem to be asking for confirmation that people who criticise a group they don't see themselves as belonging to don't see themselves as belonging to that group.


----------



## tommers (Dec 14, 2019)

Spoke to my mum's wife today and she said she was really glad that Corbyn hadn't got in as "the country would have been taken over within a year".

As in, by another country - presumably Russia or I dunno the fucking IRA or something. I didn't feel up to investigating further. 

So, you know, feel free to rationalise people's choices but also remember that folk like that exist.


----------



## treelover (Dec 14, 2019)

Boris Johnson announces plans for spending spree in north

The people's govt'

who is advising him, is this Cummings work?


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 14, 2019)

tommers said:


> Spoke to my mum's wife today and she said she was really glad that Corbyn hadn't got in as "the country would have been taken over within a year".
> 
> As in, by another country - presumably Russia or I dunno the fucking IRA or something. I didn't feel up to investigating further.
> 
> So, you know, feel free to rationalise people's choices but also remember that folk like that exist.



Maybe by the Antisemites, all coming over here. Stay in bloody Antisemitania!


----------



## two sheds (Dec 14, 2019)

We really needed a strong leader like Swinson who'd nuke anyone who'd try and take us over - before they even do it to show them a lesson.


----------



## Ming (Dec 14, 2019)

treelover said:


> Boris Johnson announces plans for spending spree in north
> 
> The people's govt'
> 
> who is advising him, is this Cummings work?


Well let’s see if the money shows up. He is known to be economical with the actualite.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 14, 2019)

teuchter said:


> I assume the definition of a "left wing hobbyist" tends to exclude whoever is using it to describe others, they themselves being considered "left wing pros" or suchlike?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 14, 2019)

two sheds said:


> We really needed a strong leader like Swinson who'd nuke anyone who'd try and take us over - before they even do it to show them a lesson.



especially if they are a squirrel


----------



## two sheds (Dec 14, 2019)

Yeh wouldn't get taken over by squirrels with her in charge.


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 14, 2019)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, it is indeed pleasing to see a Conservative government with a good solid majority, albeit with more than a bit of sadness because of who the PM is.
> 
> I have been reading this thread since about 10 last night, until I went to bed at 7 this morning.
> 
> ...


Dog Vomit I'm alright Jack. Fill in the gaps and merry xmas chuck  x


----------



## marty21 (Dec 14, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Just shy of $40,000 a year on her Patreon.


FFS


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Dec 14, 2019)

marty21 said:


> FFS



Nice baseline income, huh?


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


>



Where’s that excerpt from?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 15, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Where’s that excerpt from?


It's pablo inglesias (podemos), a speech he made a few years ago. All here:

The Left Can Win


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's pablo inglesias (podemos), a speech he made a few years ago. All here:
> 
> The Left Can Win



Ta. I’m trying to remember what Berkman said about Bolshevik activists being scared of/confused by workers.


----------



## Ming (Dec 15, 2019)

One thing that’s occurred to me is how right wing politics is viewed by joe voting public as being non-ideological. Like it’s the party of freedom. And left wing politics is ideological. Marx, USSR, ‘the enemy within’, etc. When right wing politics is actually intensely ideological. Hayek, Strauss, Friedman, Rand, etc. I think it’d be a good tactic going forward to point this out.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 15, 2019)

Ming said:


> One thing that’s occurred to me is how right wing politics is viewed by joe voting public as being non-ideological. Like it’s the party of freedom. And left wing politics is ideological. Marx, USSR, ‘the enemy within’, etc. When right wing politics is actually intensely ideological. Hayek, Strauss, Friedman, Rand, etc. I think it’d be a good tactic going forward to point this out.


It's what happens when you win. You become the default, common sense. The more you win, the more it becomes the default, the more you win.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2019)

They also use simpler language and give simpler reasons for society's ills. Wrong but simpler.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 15, 2019)

billy_bob said:


> You seem to be asking for confirmation that people who criticise a group they don't see themselves as belonging to don't see themselves as belonging to that group.


No, I am interested in the choice of the word 'hobbyist', assuming it is meant as a criticism. If you are calling others hobbyists, what does it mean about how you rate yourself in comparison.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 15, 2019)

treelover said:


> Boris Johnson announces plans for spending spree in north
> 
> The people's govt'
> 
> who is advising him, is this Cummings work?


Government's have promised spending spree's for hundreds of years. You don't need some special adviser to tell you this is a good idea.

Moreover, it fits with Johnsons own politics, he has never really been an economic dry, he likes spending money - look at his tenure as London mayor. It may be money spent on useless or even harmful things (Garden Bridge) but his politics differs from Cameron, Osbourne, May, Hammond.

Finally, and most importantly, one of the genuine victories of Labour under Corbyn has been that they have helped make the idea of further cuts to public services politically toxic.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 15, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Finally, and most importantly, one of the genuine victories of Labour under Corbyn has been that they have helped make the idea of further cuts to public services politically toxic.



Has it? With that sort of majority Johnson won't have any trouble asking the one nation to come together for post brexit cuts. We're all in this together.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 15, 2019)

Ming said:


> One thing that’s occurred to me is how right wing politics is viewed by joe voting public as being non-ideological. Like it’s the party of freedom. And left wing politics is ideological. Marx, USSR, ‘the enemy within’, etc. When right wing politics is actually intensely ideological. Hayek, Strauss, Friedman, Rand, etc. I think it’d be a good tactic going forward to point this out.



I think it is one of the problems for the left is we've allowed the right to dominate the idea of freedom, we (the left) don't talk about freedom nearly enough, we should talk up the idea of life be free from both State and Economic coercion.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 15, 2019)

If he's got any sense he'll spend some money. It wouldn't take much, just enough so next election people in those constituencies that switched could think, we voted Tory, and things got a bit better. 

Meanwhile the red cities will continue to be squeezed.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 15, 2019)

Poi E said:


> Has it? With that sort of majority Johnson won't have any trouble asking the one nation to come together for post brexit cuts. We're all in this together.


1) What evidence is there that Johnson will do such?
2) You are focussing on party politics, I'm talking about society. Regardless of what the government does there has been a clear shift in popular opinion against cut's to public services, an increased vocal backing for nationalisation. Hence a 2019 Conservative manifesto that is to the left of the 2010 and 2015 Labour manifesto's. Hence the above inflation wage rises have been seen in parts of the public sector.

In 2010 and 2015 both parties (+the LD scum) were promising attacks on public services, in 2019 no major party was. That is a real shift. And while there are many factors for it, for all my criticism of the LP, it would be churlish not to give Labour members some credit is helping to make it.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 15, 2019)

I hope you are right, but the history of the Conservative Party of the last few decades is not to boost public services. I suspect any increases in funding will be in the form of payments to private sector subcontractors of the state. As far as evidence goes, I have none. However, I do not believe Brexit will expand the economy, and I believe this will reduce public spending overall, regardless of whatever platitudes were sold to the public this election.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 15, 2019)

I don't believe a word that comes out of Johnson's fat gob but the country is stuck with him for a while. He'll make things look or sound good for a while, then cut, cut, cut.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 15, 2019)

teuchter said:


> No, I am interested in the choice of the word 'hobbyist', assuming it is meant as a criticism. If you are calling others hobbyists, what does it mean about how you rate yourself in comparison.


It refers to people for who leftwing politics is an exclusive social scene where they talk to each other, without hope, and perhaps without intent, of that translating into any sort of mass politics. 

Not a phrase I use myself tbh but that's what it refers to.


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 15, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> 1) What evidence is there that Johnson will do such?
> 2) You are focussing on party politics, I'm talking about society. Regardless of what the government does there has been a clear shift in popular opinion against cut's to public services, an increased vocal backing for nationalisation. Hence a 2019 Conservative manifesto that is to the left of the 2010 and 2015 Labour manifesto's. Hence the above inflation wage rises have been seen in parts of the public sector.
> 
> In 2010 and 2015 both parties (+the LD scum) were promising attacks on public services, in 2019 no major party was. That is a real shift. And while there are many factors for it, for all my criticism of the LP, it would be churlish not to give Labour members some credit is helping to make it.



Maybe, but the odds are these will fall short of repairing the damage caused and meanwhile the same forces roll on. 

Fast forward five years, Dominic Cummings breaks ranks _I genuinely thought they wanted to change things._


----------



## Poi E (Dec 15, 2019)

Cummings worked in post-Soviet Russia 1994-1997. No doubt he picked up some tips on fleecing a state of its public assets while you sell it as democracy.


----------



## magneze (Dec 15, 2019)

Ming said:


> One thing that’s occurred to me is how right wing politics is viewed by joe voting public as being non-ideological. Like it’s the party of freedom. And left wing politics is ideological. Marx, USSR, ‘the enemy within’, etc. When right wing politics is actually intensely ideological. Hayek, Strauss, Friedman, Rand, etc. I think it’d be a good tactic going forward to point this out.


Point it out to who?


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 15, 2019)

For anyone who thinks Johnson is going to suddenly flash the cash:


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 15, 2019)

Poi E said:


> I hope you are right, but the history of the Conservative Party of the last few decades is not to boost public services. I suspect any increases in funding will be in the form of payments to private sector subcontractors of the state. As far as evidence goes, I have none.


Oh I'm not making a claim that the Conservative Party is going to move from neo-liberalism, of course they won't.

There will still be cuts to the "unpopular' public services - immigration, benefits, overseas aid. Any increased funding will be used to advance the aims of neo-liberalism, facilitating the private sector, etc. But that is still a different politics to Cameron/Obsourne, May/Hammond or even Labour 2010-2015.

And it is something that those of us with socialist politics need to build on - something that can be used to extend political solidarity


----------



## Poi E (Dec 15, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> For anyone who thinks Johnson is going to suddenly flash the cash:




Fuck, that was fast. 

That pesky Human Rights Act must be for the chopping block now. Easy win.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 15, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> For anyone who thinks Johnson is going to suddenly flash the cash:



The article is from November. Which is actually worse than them suddenly saying it now.


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 15, 2019)

teuchter said:


> No, I am interested in the choice of the word 'hobbyist', assuming it is meant as a criticism. If you are calling others hobbyists, what does it mean about how you rate yourself in comparison.



Presumably people who do a thing as a part-time diversion, rather than a permanent lifelong commitment or way of life. I don't necessarily hold with its pejorative use, but I thought the intended meaning was clear enough.

E2a: posted before I saw Proper Tidy's similar response


----------



## chilango (Dec 15, 2019)

I use "hobbyist" from time to time. And I don't exclude myself from the term when it fits.

It, for me, is pretty straightforward.

People for whom the Left fulfils the same role in their life as any other hobby 

It provides things to do, some sort of social life, an element of identity and so on.


----------



## Ming (Dec 15, 2019)

magneze said:


> Point it out to who?


Joe public.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2019)

chilango said:


> I use "hobbyist" from time to time. And I don't exclude myself from the term when it fits.
> 
> It, for me, is pretty straightforward.
> 
> ...


Like work

But sadly I can't leave work and go down the pub and watch the racing or play chess when I feel like it


----------



## magneze (Dec 15, 2019)

Ming said:


> Joe public.


Do you think that it'd sway anyone's vote?


----------



## Ming (Dec 15, 2019)

magneze said:


> Do you think that it'd sway anyone's vote?


Yes. Of course it would. If the medicine went down. People these days are conditioned to small sound bites. Just do it that way.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 15, 2019)

Ming said:


> Yes. Of course it would. If the medicine went down. People these days are conditioned to small sound bites. Just do it that way.


Not like you with your great big amygdala eh Ming?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It refers to people for who leftwing politics is an exclusive social scene where they talk to each other, without hope, and perhaps without intent, of that translating into any sort of mass politics.
> 
> Not a phrase I use myself tbh but that's what it refers to.


Seems kind of snooty and arrogant to use it against those who decided to put their support behind labour/corbyn for the GE, whatever one might think about corbyn it's something that actually has a chance of real world effect. I spent last night with some people who gave up masses of their spare time - weekends and evenings after work - to go door knocking and so on. They did it because they wanted to do something positive; I take my hat off to them because it's way more than I and most people do. Of course they were devastated by the result. No doubt they'd be impressed by a member of some leftist micro-faction telling them they are 'hobbyists'.


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 15, 2019)

Jesus. 
_
Have you heard of a man called Hayek?_


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 15, 2019)

Now teuchter's stale warmed up concern trolling. Oh what a morning.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Now teuchter's stale warmed up concern trolling. Oh what a morning.


Are you a hobbyist or a pro? A pro, right?


----------



## stolinski (Dec 15, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> M
> 
> Are you saying I in Orkney should be voting for someone sitting in Glasgow Or Edinburgh? Please visit the north of Scotland, including the isles, you will then understand why so many seats with so few numbers



haha no i was making a point about the need for proportional representation


----------



## stolinski (Dec 15, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Why have you decided for the rest of us that proportional votes in the only way that democracy could operate? That result looks pretty sweet btw.


if you are not in favour of PR i would honestly like to hear why


----------



## magneze (Dec 15, 2019)

Ming said:


> Yes. Of course it would. If the medicine went down. People these days are conditioned to small sound bites. Just do it that way.


Sorry, I don't see it. Does anyone vote on the basis that one party is "ideological"? Even if some do, are they enough to sway anything? Again, I think the answer is no.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 15, 2019)

Ming said:


> right wing politics is actually intensely ideological. Hayek, Strauss, Friedman, Rand, etc. I think it’d be a good tactic going forward to point this out.



yet none of those are household bogeymen like Stalin etc. All ‘we’ have is Hitler (which sounds preposterous) and Thatcher, which won’t work on everyone and might be worn out from overuse.


----------



## billy_bob (Dec 15, 2019)

teuchter said:


> Seems kind of snooty and arrogant to use it against those who decided to put their support behind labour/corbyn for the GE, whatever one might think about corbyn it's something that actually has a chance of real world effect. I spent last night with some people who gave up masses of their spare time - weekends and evenings after work - to go door knocking and so on. They did it because they wanted to do something positive; I take my hat off to them because it's way more than I and most people do. Of course they were devastated by the result. No doubt they'd be impressed by a member of some leftist micro-faction telling them they are 'hobbyists'.



I respect such people for putting the hours in that they have, and I think on the whole you're right that their motivations are entirely positive. It's far better that they want to do something and change something than not giving a shit. But what we're talking about is the difference between politics conducted by blitzing a place with leaflets at election time, maybe even a few times a year away from elections, maybe even at best with a bit of door-knocking, and permanent, year-round community-based organising. They both have their uses and it doesn't do much good for anyone to get too purist or sanctimonious about people who are doing something rather than nothing, which is why I said I don't really hold with using the term you're querying, but they're clearly not the same thing or equally as impactful.

E2a: also I'm not making any judgement here about whether anyone who has used the term 'hobbyist' about others is in fact the kind of year-round committed community activist who might be in a position to do so with any justification. I don't know anyone here irl.


----------



## gosub (Dec 15, 2019)

Didn't dare share on facebook as this weekend it is full of people blaming the electorate, the media, the electoral system...

<didn't vote>
Not that unhappy with the result as it at least crystallises the challenges the Country faces, but one of the most urgent is the need for an effective oppostion....I see the Government is now boycotting the Today prram,   Mr Johnson clearly has an allergy to scrutiny .  All the more reason for ensuring that he is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2019)

gosub said:


> Didn't dare share on facebook as this weekend it is full of people blaming the electorate, the media, the electoral system...
> 
> <didn't vote>
> Not that unhappy with the result as it at least crystallises the challenges the Country faces, but one of the most urgent is the need for an effective oppostion....I see the Government is now boycotting the Today prram,   Mr Johnson clearly has an allergy to scrutiny .  All the more reason for ensuring that he is.



Five years of ambushing his every publick appearance beckons


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 15, 2019)

gosub said:


> Didn't dare share on facebook as this weekend it is full of people blaming the electorate, the media, the electoral system...
> 
> <didn't vote>
> Not that unhappy with the result as it at least crystallises the challenges the Country faces, but one of the most urgent is the need for an effective oppostion....I see the Government is now boycotting the Today prram,   Mr Johnson clearly has an allergy to scrutiny .  All the more reason for ensuring that he is.




The video says exactly what I've been saying for ages, and the insults noted in the video are exactly what I've been attacked with.

That in mind, thank you to Corbyn and all his fucking moronic supporters, including those on here, for 5 fucking terrible years of cunt Johnson and his tory fucking cuntmob.

It's your fucking fault so wake the fuck up, fucking slap yourselves across the face, then stop being such a set of Johnfuckingson pals, because that's what you are when you fucked up Labour.

Corbyn - Fuck off tomorrow morning because you're an idiot tory supporting cunt, and you're too fucking stupid to see it.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 15, 2019)

U ok hun


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 15, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The video says exactly what I've been saying for ages, and the insults noted in the video are exactly what I've been attacked with.
> 
> That in mind, thank you to Corbyn and all his fucking moronic supporters, including those on here, for 5 fucking terrible years of cunt Johnson and his tory fucking cuntmob.
> 
> ...



Ok boomer.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 15, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The video says exactly what I've been saying for ages.


 No, I'm not sure that it does.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The video says exactly what I've been saying for ages, and the insults noted in the video are exactly what I've been attacked with.
> 
> That in mind, thank you to Corbyn and all his fucking moronic supporters, including those on here, for 5 fucking terrible years of cunt Johnson and his tory fucking cuntmob.
> 
> ...


You shouldn't hit the booze so early in the day


----------



## elbows (Dec 15, 2019)

Don Snorleone will not rest until socialism and the leaders that profess to support socialist policies are consigned to the cor bin of history.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 15, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> The video says exactly what I've been saying for ages, and the insults noted in the video are exactly what I've been attacked with.
> 
> That in mind, thank you to Corbyn and all his fucking moronic supporters, including those on here, for 5 fucking terrible years of cunt Johnson and his tory fucking cuntmob.
> 
> ...



I'll remind you of this post when Labour's descent into your preferred flavour of woke right wing liberal bullshit has rendered them an irrelevance.

Labour's northern constituencies didn't abandon them in 2017 when Corbyn came out with a "dangerously socialist" manifesto for the Labour campaign. But they *did* abandon Labour after the pivot towards Remain. Labour opened themselves up to having their vote split by the Brexit party and here we are.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 15, 2019)

NoXion said:


> Labour's northern constituencies didn't abandon them in 2017 when Corbyn came out with a "dangerously socialist" manifesto for the Labour campaign. But they *did* abandon Labour after the pivot towards Remain.



Good point.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 15, 2019)

For some reason I read this in Tony Hancock's voice.


----------



## gosub (Dec 15, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> For some reason I read this in Tony Hancock's voice.




Nicotine withdrawal.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 15, 2019)

gosub said:


> Nicotine withdrawal.


A pint? That's very nearly an armful.


----------



## gosub (Dec 15, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> A pint? That's very nearly an armful.



 Last time I had a blood test, the nurse wasn't old enough to know the quote, getting old.


----------



## rekil (Dec 15, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> For some reason I read this in Tony Hancock's voice.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 15, 2019)

Just our Laurie  being herself, old chap.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 15, 2019)

gosub said:


> Last time I had a blood test, the nurse wasn't old enough to know the quote, getting old.


In Andersonstown about 20 years ago, I met a lad proudly wearing a "Tony Hancock Appreciation Society" t-shirt.


----------



## elbows (Dec 15, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Just our Laurie  being herself, old chap.



A lot of weight resting on her shoulders, making sure Magna Carta did not die in vain.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 15, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Imagine voting for Galloway


Well now you can!


A lash up with (checks notes) the CPGBML? Thank you my dear, you have delighted us enough already.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 15, 2019)

Saddam? Brexit Party? RT? I wish the feller could settle on one particular cowpat and stay there. Come on flies on shit, we need to see some more consistency from you!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2019)

Holy fuck.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 15, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Holy fuck.
> 
> View attachment 193083



See. Right-wing governments give better satire. 

The upturn's started already.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 15, 2019)

Post-election statement from the ACG: Never Mind the Ballots, Create the Resistance – Anarchist Communist Group


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 15, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Holy fuck.
> 
> View attachment 193083



Well I hope everyone at BBC towers has learned their lesson about sucking up to the school bully.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 15, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well I hope everyone at BBC towers has learned their lesson about sucking up to the school bully.


Narrator: "They had not learned their lesson."


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 15, 2019)

Fear isn't the only motivation anyway - plenty of people in BBC news appear to simply think that Labour deserved the treatment they got and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Matey chats with Farage every morning, selfies with Johnson, all fine. It was just when the Tories started absolutely taking the piss and threatening their own self-image as Proper Journalists if they completely let them get away with it that Neil or fucking Schofield starting coming down on them. I mean take Neil - he's got a very long history of being pro-Tory, but he also clearly thinks of himself as a hard-hitting no-nonsense objective interviewer. If you show him a fish in a barrel he will pull the trigger.

But actually, intimidating the BBC isn't the Tories' main motivation anyway IMO. Just like Trump, it's to send a message to their supporters about who they should listen to.


----------



## treelover (Dec 15, 2019)

> This may be a dark time but there is plenty to smile, even laugh, about. For example, I had an email from a right wing conservative Conservative. A mixture of triumphalism and moaning about Johnson's liberalism and the UK going to the dogs.



not every Tory is ecstatic, 
posted elsewhere


----------



## treelover (Dec 15, 2019)

I'm certain that with Cummings behind him, Johnson will promote community/social enterprises, etc, in fact he will pinch a lot of John Mc's economic ideas.

One of the other issues as i have been reading is for some time, some of the red wall, is not really that constituency any more, Newcastle Under Lyme for example, is now full of retirees, commuters, a few ex mining towns are like that.


----------



## treelover (Dec 15, 2019)




----------



## Wilf (Dec 15, 2019)

Take a break, lighthearted moment time: some bloke from Gavin and Stacey calls Laura Kuennsberg a 'plopcarpet'. Actor Mathew Horne apologises for Laura Kuenssberg 'plopcarpet' attack
Though I'm not sure why he apologised.


----------



## Kuke (Dec 15, 2019)

Cid said:


> It's now a personal mission to open a pub called 'The Bell' up there.



You'd like the Prince Albert on Bellenden Road, Peckham.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 15, 2019)

NoXion said:


> I'll remind you of this post when Labour's descent into your preferred flavour of woke right wing liberal bullshit has rendered them an irrelevance.



You mean Labour is relevant now?
Bullshit. Labour got absolutely hammered because they put themselves before what people wanted, made themselves look fucking stupid, had high profile fucking idiots leading the campaign, and generally looked inept.
Corbyn came over as a moron, 2 left shoes is the ideal candidate for the press to fuck about with, the policies were tired old extremist crap, and the "errrm" position on Brexit was pure stupidity.

Much as I don't like it, the electorate have soundly voted for Brexit so, as the UK is a democracy, elected politicians must work for the people, not themselves.
Labour came out as Errm or remain, and the electorate punished them for it, this giving Britain a five year bad hair day from a bastard with seriously bad hair.

This election result was the consequence of a set of idiots, led by an idiot, with easy to ridicule idiots as his main team, ignoring the electorate.
There's only one cure - Purge the far left, especially Corbyn, then find new people the press will find it far more difficult to attack.
Before the old racist argument comes out about 2 left shoes, it's shit all to do with her skin colour for most, more because she's fucking stupid.


----------



## YouSir (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> You mean Labour is relevant now?
> Bullshit. Labour got absolutely hammered because they put themselves before what people wanted, made themselves look fucking stupid, had high profile fucking idiots leading the campaign, and generally looked inept.
> Corbyn came over as a moron, 2 left shoes is the ideal candidate for the press to fuck about with, the policies were tired old extremist crap, and the "errrm" position on Brexit was pure stupidity.
> 
> ...



What does that mean policy wise? What do you actually advocate for a Labour platform?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 16, 2019)

trying to mimic the tory party is how i read his post


fuck me if they follow that we are doom


----------



## YouSir (Dec 16, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> trying to mimic the tory party is how i read his post
> 
> 
> fuck me if they follow that we are doom



Always worth asking, one day there might even be an answer.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> trying to mimic the tory party is how i read his post



Then go back to school to brush up on your reading skills. I want to see mild socialist policies, workable ones delivered by people the press don't find quite so easy to ridicule. 
I ask you this - Is it better to have mild socialism that can look after social services and the other more important parts of life than ultra left policies no fucker wants and tory governments?

That's your choice.


----------



## YouSir (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Then go back to school to brush up on your reading skills. I want to see mild socialist policies, workable ones delivered by people the press don't find quite so easy to ridicule.
> I ask you this - Is it better to have mild socialism that can look after social services and the other more important parts of life than ultra left policies no fucker wants and tory governments?
> 
> That's your choice.



What policies?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Then go back to school to brush up on your reading skills. I want to see mild socialist policies, workable ones delivered by people the press don't find quite so easy to ridicule.
> I ask you this - Is it better to have mild socialism that can look after social services and the other more important parts of life than ultra left policies no fucker wants and tory governments?
> 
> That's your choice.



Ultra left policies?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> Ultra left policies?



Nationalisation to start with. It fails every time and the press absolutely hammer anyone that puts it forward, that meaning unelectable.
Can you tell me of a time when a more left leaning Labour government managed to win two terms in office and completed both of them?


----------



## YouSir (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation to start with. It fails every time and the press absolutely hammer anyone that puts it forward, that meaning unelectable.
> Can you tell me of a time when a more left leaning Labour government managed to win two terms in office and completed both of them?



What policies do you want Labour to have?


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

YouSir said:


> What policies do you want Labour to have?



I listed a few ideas before - look up my posting history


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation to start with. It fails every time and the press absolutely hammer anyone that puts it forward, that meaning unelectable.
> Can you tell me of a time when a more left leaning Labour government managed to win two terms in office and completed both of them?



seeming as i've never suggest nationalisation of the energy and rail service 

all i will remark is both sectors are still costing the public purse millions and more each year even after privatisation

also what policies


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

However, all policies must be electable ones, not pie in the sky loads of old bollocks that have been tried and failed before.
I see nobody answered by question about successful Labour governments - Apart from Blair, a nasty little fucker, Labour have never managed more than 5 years in office, and have always fucked up, the 1974 to 77 mess probably contending for the worst 'in power' fuck up in Labour's political history, but Foot and Corbyn easily being the worst two silly fucker leaders of any party, in any country, in all history - that including Trump who, much as he's an utter dog turd of a cunt, at least does well for his own people and the US ultra right. (I'll be a pleasurable day when he finally gets fucked over and dumped into prison)
It's time for some common sense so Labour can get into number 10 and stay there.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> also what policies



Subscribe to read | Financial Times



> Labour has pledged to abolish all independent schools in the UK if it wins the next general election, following a motion passed by delegates at its annual conference on Sunday. The opposition party has resolved to include a commitment in its next election manifesto to “integrate all private schools into the state sector”. This would be achieved by withdrawing charitable status, tax exemptions — including business rates — and all other public subsidies from private institutions.  A future Labour government would seek to implement the policy by initially ensuring that the proportion of students admitted to universities from private schools did not exceed their share of the overall school population, which currently stands at 7 per cent.



Idiocy


----------



## editor (Dec 16, 2019)

A friend comments: 



> To put it bluntly, it seems that, the more older people a society has, the more right-wing and reactionary it becomes. Here, by age group, is why Boris Johnson is now free to see how much he, via Dominic Cummings, can become a tech-savvy modern version of that chilling old bogeyman, the dictator, while pretending that he's just fulfilling his promise to 'Get Brexit Done.'


----------



## Wilf (Dec 16, 2019)

Very similar gradients to 2017 iirc. So it was all about a combination of the number of registered voters in each age group along with respective turnout figures. A side issue but the libdem consistent score across the age groups is interesting. The Lab and Con figures were party (but not entirely) about the attitudes towards brexit in the different age groups. But the Libs, who had a very clear anti-brexit stance don't seem to have been affected by that dynamic.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Let's run through a few points.

NHS - Good stuff, but must be tempered with efficiency. That doesn't mean Tory style business managers, it means stopping waste - all waste

Hold a second referendum on Brexit - Highly unpopular, as we found out

Minimum wage - Nice but it's a vote grabber the press killed so ended up as a vote loser. It just copied a tory vote winner policy, and Labour looked stupid

National care - Too expensive and already rejected as such in the past. That was always going to get hammered and, just to really fuck it up, most people had no clue what the fuck it was so it meant nothing

Zero carbon - Good news but a slow, careful approach is needed with line spun about being business friendly and saving money, not just climate change. The climate crisis has to be sorted out, but most people just don't see it so make it cheap to run eco-friendly cars and so on. People understand low bills a lot better than they do carbon emmitions.

Nationalisation - Expensive idiocy - dump that moronic idea forever. 

Universal credit - Yes, it's a bit crap but you have to work out how to replace it before you can say you'll replace it. That was a killer the tories loved.

Conference's private schools stuff was always going to mean attacks on the whole party, more so when you look at how many Labour parliamentarians wither went to private schools or send their kids there. Yes, improve state schools, but attacking private education is a guaranteed fuck up policy.

Free buses - Not that free as tax pays for them, so always an invitation for attacks there was no defence against.

EU nationals right to remain - Blanket policies like that are stupid because they include all the ones the press love to attack Labour with. There goes a policy because 'Polish rapists' will get cited as examples. The remain policy is fine, but there had to be exceptions for criminals and other undesirables in order to avoid obvious tory attacks.

Council home - Good, but make sure they match the people the things are intended for. If we're talking pensioners, easy access and small to keep bills down work better than a 3 bed with an upstairs.

At the end of the day,the whole thing was a silly bit of toilet paper that had too little thought, no idea what was actually needed, and went against the stated aims of the electorate. It was a left wing political document designed for a minority left wing with no fucking clue their ideals are seriously unpopular.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 16, 2019)

Ignore this loser prick troll Don Trooomp. It wouldn’t be worth pissing on him if he were on fire so it’s also obviously not worth engaging in discourse with him. He is a worthless human.


----------



## maomao (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Let's run through a few points.


Let's not eh. No-one actually reads all your posts you blathering imbecile.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Then go back to school to brush up on your reading skills. I want to see mild socialist policies, workable ones delivered by people the press don't find quite so easy to ridicule.
> I ask you this - Is it better to have mild socialism that can look after social services and the other more important parts of life than ultra left policies no fucker wants and tory governments?
> 
> That's your choice.



What are these mild socialist policies. You did have a bit of a go about housing, but since then nothing. Come on let's have some actual content.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Ignore this loser prick



Given the loser here is the Labour party, it seems reasonable to consider a whole new approach.
If wanting to get Labour into government is what you see as trolling, you're a sad fucker.


----------



## bimble (Dec 16, 2019)

Have you ever thought there might be more fun ways to explore your masochistic side Don Troooomp ?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 16, 2019)

What kind of man spends half his life posting reams and reams of text nobody will read on a website where everyone hates him and thinks he's a thick cunt?

A fucking weirdo. Probably abuses animals when he's not boring the good people of urban.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Just our Laurie  being herself, old chap.


Red Laurie yellow laurie


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

YouSir said:


> What policies?


He's light and bitter


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 16, 2019)

Even while eating toast, annoying the dogs and idly wondering if the snot in my nose is going to work its way to my chest in time for Christmas I can see ol' Don's talking with his dick out again - nationalisation of transport and utilities is a very popular idea, and the minimum wage was a key campaign policy of Labour's in 1997, implemented the following year. Tit


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Subscribe to read | Financial Times
> 
> 
> 
> Idiocy



Edward Heath demanded their abolition writing in 1940. When it was debated in the Commons in the same year a Liberal MP was one of the loudest voices calling for public schools to be taken over by the State sector.

In 1964 Labour won an election with a manifesto which included "integrating public schools into the state system".

Well known Labour hard-lefter Shirley Williams is on record  as wanting an end to them.

Within the Conservative Party both Gove and Hancock have sparked rows by trying to move against private schools.

You may want to read more on the subject before making such sweeping assumptions.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 16, 2019)

Troomp will be along soon to tell us that the way to sort out education is to have smaller signs, get them run by tesco cos nationalisation never works and to have 8 hours PE a week where they have to ride exercise bikes connected to generators so the electricity can be sold to the national grid to fund share dividends.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 16, 2019)




----------



## Marty1 (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Given the loser here is the Labour party, it seems reasonable to consider a whole new approach.
> If wanting to get Labour into government is what you see as trolling, you're a sad fucker.



I think that’s the disparity, you look for an electoral win others here seem they’d rather have a moral one and indulge in arrogance and sneering.

It’s the latter that could possibly keep Labour out of power for generations.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 16, 2019)

Fucking hell, it's the brains trust


----------



## kabbes (Dec 16, 2019)

“Labour lost so 100% of the things they were advocating for were unpopular with everyone”.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 16, 2019)

Almost as though Don and M1 just haven't read anything whatsoever on Urban or elsewhere other than the biggest type in the shittest papers


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Almost as though Don and M1 just haven't read anything whatsoever on Urban or elsewhere other than the biggest type in the shittest papers


They have all the political nous of Jo Swinson, the architect of the recent election and our next prime minister


----------



## tommers (Dec 16, 2019)

Still at least those potholes will be well filled.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

tommers said:


> Still at least those potholes will be well filled.


All the labour mps who lost their seats have been employed by the government to first dig and then fill potholes on the a406 around hangar lane as part of a pilot scheme


----------



## not a trot (Dec 16, 2019)

MY wife and I don't enjoy the best of health and are getting on in years._ it's a sobering thought that we most likely will never see another Labour government in our lifetimes._


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I think that’s the disparity, you looks for an electoral win others here seem they’d rather have a moral one and indulge in arrogance and sneering.
> 
> It’s the latter that could possibly keep Labour out of power for generations.



Nice bit of arrogance and sneering there


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> Within the Conservative Party both Gove and Hancock have sparked rows by trying to move against private schools.
> 
> You may want to read more on the subject before making such sweeping assumptions.



yes, sparked rows. That means the policy is contentious. Is that easy enough for you to understand?


----------



## rekil (Dec 16, 2019)

Trromp is the Artem Bahmet of u75.



Spoiler


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

So, to prove the left wing and their ideas work, just tell us all the dates of a successful left wing Labour government that lasted 2 full terms.

I ask but never get an answer  Anyone have any idea why the left refuse to answer?


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> yes, sparked rows. That means the policy is contentious. Is that easy enough for you to understand?



Of course it's contentious.

The point is it's been a regular proposal, and not from the far-left, for 70 years.

Hardly some new game changer.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> yes, sparked rows. That means the policy is contentious. Is that easy enough for you to understand?


Contentious amongst tories yeah


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> So, to prove the left wing and their ideas work, just tell us all the dates of a successful left wing Labour government that lasted 2 full terms.
> 
> I ask but never get an answer  Anyone have any idea why the left refuse to answer?


Because it's a stupid question from a stupid person I suspect


----------



## Poi E (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> yes, sparked rows. That means the policy is contentious. Is that easy enough for you to understand?



By that token you just end up brown nosing the middle and upper classes in England, like it's always been. I mean, the schools are shit, producing lazy wankers. I've had to manage them. Their strongest skill is waiting for someone else to volunteer for a task. Sure, they're affable and come with that easy confidence that people here mistake for competence. But c'mon, they're a hijacked feudal relic and who gives a fuck if the public are fascinated with them like they are with Downton Abbey. Although I doubt they are.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Screw it, to save waiting for them to deflect, I'll answer. The Labour left have Never managed a successful 2 term run.

That would suggest far left wing ideas are crap in that they don't work in reality, and the whole fucking daft leaning is unpopular. Labour only get in when the Tories fuck themselves over, never because the Labour left have ever managed anything.
This election was especially shit, the left having taken over the whole job, stuffed a total fucking idiot into the leadership, then watched with support when he chose fucking idiots like 2 left shoes into his shadow cabinet. 

Now, before some bleeding idiot starts claiming I'm a Blair fan - Fuck off - he was a cunt almost as bad as Thatcher.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 16, 2019)

So ditch all the policies just get the personality right. No wonder England becomes a more inchoate place by the day.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Poi E said:


> By that token you just end up brown nosing the middle and upper classes in England, like it's always been. I mean, the schools are shit, producing lazy wankers. I've had to manage them. Their strongest skill is waiting for someone else to volunteer for a task. Sure, they're affable and come with that easy confidence that people here mistake for competence. But c'mon, they're a hijacked feudal relic and who gives a fuck if the public are fascinated with them like they are with Downton Abbey. Although I doubt they are.



What they are hardly matters, attacking them in any way brings weight against you. 
Perhaps you can explain the advantages of destroying them, and how that will help get a Labour PM into number 10.



> who gives a fuck if the public are fascinated with them like they are with Downton Abbey.



Sort of depends if you want a Labour government or not.


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

What far-left ideas?
(I know, I should just ignore him, sorry)


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Poi E said:


> So ditch all the policies just get the personality right. No wonder England becomes a more inchoate place by the day.



Ditch all the shit policies, then get personalities that don't look and sound like fucking idiots. Not personality politics, just removing easy targets that keep labour in opposition.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> What far-left ideas?
> (I know, I should just ignore him, sorry)



There's a list further up the thread


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Because it's a stupid question from a stupid person I suspect



No - Because you refuse to answer because you can't without admitting the far left are unpopular and crap at their jobs.
If you can prove me wrong - Do so by posting the dates, PM, how many years they were in power, and their achievements.
Don't bother if they didn't manage 10 years in government, or left the country in a mess with things like very high inflation and debts to the IMF.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

I keep blocking the cunt, only person I've ever blocked, then unblocking cos threads don't make sense (how do serial blockers cope), honestly he's doing my tits in, why can't somebody just fuck him off


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

I'll give you a clue, the largest ever loan from the IMF was in 1976.


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> There's a list further up the thread



There isn't.

That's my point.

That they've been repeatedly painted as far-left by vested interests and that this has been breathlessly repeated by many is undeniably a problem.

But the policies themselves?

Nothing that would out of place on mainstream manifestos for most post-war elections in the UK and nothing that would look out of place in our OECD peers.

I've given you the example of Labour's policy on private schools as that's my own area of interest.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I keep blocking the cunt, only person I've ever blocked, then unblocking cos threads don't make sense (how do serial blockers cope), honestly he's doing my tits in, why can't somebody just fuck him off



Try answering the questions

Which years have far left Labour governments run for two terms?
Which Labour governments have left power with the country in a better state than when they took office, thus left the electorate better off?


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I keep blocking the cunt, only person I've ever blocked, then unblocking cos threads don't make sense (how do serial blockers cope), honestly he's doing my tits in, why can't somebody just fuck him off



Sorry PT. I'll give him till I've finished my morning cup of tea and if nothing improves I'll press the button too.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> In 1964 Labour won an election with a manifesto which included "integrating public schools into the state system".



How many years did they hold power - 2?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> Sorry PT. I'll give him till I've finished my morning cup of tea and if nothing improves I'll press the button too.


I bite sometimes too, when I said can somebody fuck him off what I meant was can editor ban him


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I bite sometimes too, when I said can somebody fuck him off what I meant was can editor ban him



Freedom of speech and open expression is fine until you don't like something?
You can't answer so you just want rid rather than examine the problems that are keeping Labour of of power.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I bite sometimes too, when I said can somebody fuck him off what I meant was can editor ban him


maybe auld fridgey might like in on the action


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> There isn't.



I think there is



Don Troooomp said:


> Let's run through a few points.
> 
> NHS - Good stuff, but must be tempered with efficiency. That doesn't mean Tory style business managers, it means stopping waste - all waste
> 
> ...


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> How many years did they hold power - 2?



You think that's because of that (unimplemented) policy?

*shakes head*


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I think there is



Not a single one of them is "far left" by any useful definition.


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Anyway you've got about two mouthfuls to say something more serious and worth engaging with (hint: I don't have to agree with it but it has to have least a passing acquaintance with reality) before I hit the button....


----------



## Part-timah (Dec 16, 2019)

editor said:


> A friend comments:



I wonder why the difference. Is it purely the accumulation of capital that turns older voters and/or the consumption of traditional media.

What will that look like in 5 years?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Part-timah said:


> I wonder why the difference. Is it purely the accumulation of capital that turns older voters and/or the consumption of traditional media.
> 
> What will that look like in 5 years?


or is it that more people who have always voted tory are alive about the age of 65


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

/


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 16, 2019)

Just thought of a minor positive of the demise of Corbyn/McDonnell: Seamus Milne will no longer be in charge of the press office. I sometimes wonder how much better they might have done with someone with an ounce of media nous in charge. The anti-semitism could have been dealt with so much better (I mean, getting rid of anti-semites faster too, but there was also the PR element). But I realised they were still being shit when they released that broadband policy in the election campaign. "I know, since one of the attack lines on us is that we just offer to give away free stuff, and since this is successful and people already have trouble believing we can keep our promises, why don't we announce a policy of more free stuff that literally no-one even asked for!" The media obviously monstered Corbyn, but there were also so many unforced errors.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> No - Because you refuse to answer because you can't without admitting the far left are unpopular and crap at their jobs.
> If you can prove me wrong - Do so by posting the dates, PM, how many years they were in power, and their achievements.
> Don't bother if they didn't manage 10 years in government, or left the country in a mess with things like very high inflation and debts to the IMF.


no, i did answer your question, namely


Don Troooomp said:


> I ask but never get an answer  Anyone have any idea why the left refuse to answer?


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Ok tea finished. Must crack on with my day.


----------



## bimble (Dec 16, 2019)

Part-timah said:


> I wonder why the difference. Is it purely the accumulation of capital that turns older voters and/or the consumption of traditional media.
> 
> What will that look like in 5 years?



That's what i want to know too.
graphic probably been posted already but its so stark when seen like this:



eta CORRECTION - thats not actually form this election soz its from sept 2018.


----------



## JimW (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I'll give you a clue, the largest ever loan from the IMF was in 1976.


Healy's on record as saying they never actually needed that, he was conned by the civil service for some odd reason.


----------



## Part-timah (Dec 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> or is it that more people who have always voted tory are alive about the age of 65



The rich living longer no doubt is a depressing factor.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 16, 2019)

JimW said:


> Healy's on record as saying they never actually needed that, he was conned by the civil service for some odd reason.


I mentioned that case to an old boss of mine, who had a family connection to the Labour cabinet of that era. And he got _really _huffy with me  - "all that money was paid back inside six months". Which in fairness is a detail that usually gets left out.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 16, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> But I realised they were still being shit when they released that broadband policy in the election campaign. "I know, since one of the attack lines on us is that we just offer to give away free stuff, and since this is successful and people already have trouble believing we can keep our promises, why don't we announce a policy of more free stuff that literally no-one even asked for!" The media obviously monstered Corbyn, but there were also so many unforced errors.



Yes, it would have been a good policy but just looked like another uncosted giveaway. I groaned early on when Corbyn said he was offering four extra days holiday a year, it just looked like a bribe. 

I wanted to see costings all the way through. How much from stopping offshore tax evasion for example? How much from taxing the millionaires and billionaires? Similarly they could have put more stress on  the profits that the privatized industries were making - I saw a report somewhere that renationalizing would pay for itself within 6 or 7 years: eliminating all the wasteful duplicated advertising and legal fees that are involved with multiple suppliers for example. 

Even if most of the money was coming from quantitative easing, then stress that it had been done before but instead of all the money going to the banks this time it would have gone for investment in infrastructure.

Of course, he might have been giving these figures every time he spoke but they just might not have been reported - hard to tell with the press we've got.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 16, 2019)

two sheds said:


> Yes, it would have been a good policy but just looked like another uncosted giveaway. I groaned early on when Corbyn said he was offering four extra days holiday a year, it just looked like a bribe.
> 
> I wanted to see costings all the way through. How much from stopping offshore tax evasion for example? How much from taxing the millionaires and billionaires? Similarly they could have put more stress on  the profits that the privatized industries were making - I saw a report somewhere that renationalizing would pay for itself within 6 or 7 years: eliminating all the wasteful duplicated advertising and legal fees that are involved with multiple suppliers for example.
> 
> ...



There was no need to put so much in the manifesto anyway. It just became more for them to be targetted for. Manifesto could have looked like:

Better public services with a focus on the NHS
Green new deal for jobs (particularly in the north)
End food banks by ending Universal Credit

All a bit academic with their Brexit position, but it was distressing to see them spending days defending stuff like free broadband and planting billions of trees. It all meant they weren't talking about the important stuff. An intern fresh out of a media/comms degree could have told them they were fucking up the messaging.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 16, 2019)

I saw someone on Twatter saying that Labour won the vote among working age population, pensioners won it for the Tories. Does this mean the ‘working class’ did back Labour after all?


----------



## marty21 (Dec 16, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> There was no need to put so much in the manifesto anyway. It just became more for them to be targetted for. Manifesto could have looked like:
> 
> Better public services with a focus on the NHS
> Green new deal for jobs (particularly in the north)
> ...



Whereas the Tories were on point on messaging - 'Get Brexit Done' was practically their only message - repeated again and again - clearly that worked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> I saw someone on Twatter saying that Labour won the vote among working age population, pensioners won it for the Tories. Does this mean the ‘working class’ did back Labour after all?


i am sure the twittereriat won't let anything like that get in their way of slagging off northern working class people as responsible for the Great Calamity


----------



## kabbes (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Try answering the questions
> 
> Which years have far left Labour governments run for two terms?
> Which Labour governments have left power with the country in a better state than when they took office, thus left the electorate better off?


You know that the U.K. isn’t the only country that elects governments, right?  And plenty of those countries have used nationalised industries for decades.  Governments supporting these policies have been repeatedly returned.  So is your contention that there is a special reason why mildly socialist policies like the ones in the Labour manifesto are unworkable specifically in the U.K.?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 16, 2019)

I think the problem is that Don Troooomp actually believes in Conservative ideology but he doesn’t want to admit it to himself.  He really is a natural Tory voter.  If that’s what he believes in, he’d be better off sticking with that rather than trying to turn the Labour Party into the Tory party.  He could and should just join the Tory party — his more natural home — and concentrate on steering that party towards its One Nation Conservative roots rather than its Free Market Thatcherism later incarnation.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 16, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Whereas the Tories were on point on messaging - 'Get Brexit Done' was practically their only message - repeated again and again - clearly that worked.


Maybe it could have been countered with something like "Real Brexit, Real Choice"? Or simply "Don't trust Johnson"?


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 16, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Whereas the Tories were on point on messaging - 'Get Brexit Done' was practically their only message - repeated again and again - clearly that worked.


Yeah, it did. I don't want to obsess about media strategy as it is only a small part of the picture (compared to working out what would actually make people feel more powerful), but Milne has consistently been an incompetent muppet and I'm glad to be seeing the back of him. Quite a failure by Corbyn to appoint a friend rather than someone actually competent.


----------



## marty21 (Dec 16, 2019)

I was speaking to a work mate this morning - he voted Labour (In Brent) liked Corbyn, wanted Labour to win, but wasn't surprised they didn't. He said Labour had too many policies   He said he was only interested in having a home, earning a living, and having a NHS, he wasn't interested in having free broadband or any of the other things they had in the manifesto. I think he had a point - the simple Tory message was easy to understand - Labour overthought - had too many strategists/media experts and they got found out.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 16, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Maybe it could have been countered with something like "Real Brexit, Real Choice"? Or simply "Don't trust Johnson"?



Deck chairs and Titanic.

Labour leave, and labour respect-the-result voters were massively offended when Labour stopped talking about respecting the result and started moving towards a second ref - that's when trust went down the shitter. When they started saying that they wouldn't even vote for a leave deal that they had negotiated the game was completely dead in the water.

It was - or appeared to be, which in politics is the same thing - a London-centric, remainer stitch-up where labour were now saying they would negotiate a different deal, then come back and then vote against it in another referendum. No choice, and no brexit was what the electorate heard, and no slogan was going to cut through that visceral betrayal of trust. 

 They weren't keen on Corbyn to start with, but that made them lose their shit...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

marty21 said:


> I was speaking to a work mate this morning - he voted Labour (In Brent) liked Corbyn, wanted Labour to win, but wasn't surprised they didn't. He said Labour had too many policies   He said he was only interested in having a home, earning a living, and having a NHS, he wasn't interested in having free broadband or any of the other things they had in the manifesto. I think he had a point - the simple Tory message was easy to understand - Labour overthought - had too many strategists/media experts and they got found out.


yeh there were too many policies, trotted out before previous policies had really settled in people's minds. this would have been the time to issue not a great long manifesto but a short 'deal with brexit' and several major domestic policies, like nationalisation - saying something like 'when we have replaced the shitty tory exit plan with one which we can commend to the people we will place it before the public for a confirmatory vote which will remove this divisive issue from our national debate. once this is done we will turn to the major planks of our domestic agenda which include nationalisation of key resources, enabling everyone to take part in the digital society through expansion of superfast broadband and provision of computer skills tuition, and looking after the weakest in our society'.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 16, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Deck chairs and Titanic.
> 
> Labour leave, and labour respect-the-result voters were massively offended when Labour stopped talking about respecting the result and started moving towards a second ref - that's when trust went down the shitter. When they started saying that they wouldn't even vote for a leave deal that they had negotiated the game was completely dead in the water.
> 
> ...


I was thinking that even if the referendum was advisory, and not legally binding. . . it was still politically binding. Precisely because, unlike in Ireland, referenda in the UK system are not a normal, everyday part of political life, but are instead something very unusual, only resorted to (in most cases) when a party is fatally split over some key issue. And when a party in control of parliament delegates its sovereign power to a popular referendum, regardless of the legal status of that referendum, its political status becomes fairly substantial.

And that's why watery bints chucking scimitars about isn't a rational basis for a system of government.


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

Twitter, obviously and predictably, is full of foam, froth and invective directed at the Labour Left and it's commentariat personalities.

...but how many of these critics would've _ever_ voted Labour anyway? Just as the Left should've turned down the volume on the #fbpe noise that may have contributed to errors this time, they should do the same now before lurching rightwards and turning on their left mouthpieces.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> Twitter, obviously and predictably, is full of foam, froth and invective directed at the Labour Left and it's commentariat personalities.
> 
> ...but how many of these critics would've _ever_ voted Labour anyway? Just as the Left should've turned down the volume on the #fbpe noise that may have contributed to errors this time, they should do the same now before lurching rightwards and turning on their left mouthpieces.


the labour party is like a drunk staggering down the street veering first left then stumbling into the gutter then lurching right and bashing into a wall before zigging into the gutter again and on and on


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 16, 2019)

There is the odd dig at the ruling party


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Nationalisation to start with. It fails every time and the press absolutely hammer anyone that puts it forward, that meaning unelectable.
> Can you tell me of a time when a more left leaning Labour government managed to win two terms in office and completed both of them?



rail nationalisation is very popular, in fact I can see Johnson floating the idea, maybe public consultation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> rail nationalisation is very popular, in fact I can see Johnson floating the idea, maybe public consultation.


johnson floating is very popular, especially if face down


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> rail nationalisation is very popular, in fact I can see Johnson floating the idea, maybe public consultation.



Yeah good luck with that.


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2019)

'And that's why watery bints chucking scimitars about isn't a rational basis for a system of government.'

eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> 'And that's why watery bints chucking scimitars about isn't a rational basis for a system of government.'
> 
> eh?


have you honestly never heard of king arthur and his sword excalibur and the lady of the lake? it is an allusion to monty python and the holy grail


----------



## Crispy (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> rail nationalisation is very popular, in fact I can see Johnson floating the idea, maybe public consultation.


The most they might stretch to wouldn't be real natioinalisation. It would be a tightening up of the franchise system to be more like London buses. Government control of infrastructure fares and routes, but traincos remaining private operators who get rewarded for achieving service levels within a set budget. A similar model they'll move the NHS further and further to.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 16, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> What kind of man spends half his life posting reams and reams of text nobody will read on a website where everyone hates him and thinks he's a thick cunt?
> 
> A fucking weirdo. Probably abuses animals when he's not boring the good people of urban.


He's the Ancient Mariner and we are the wedding guest, compelled to listen. Though I don't expect to emerge a wise and sadder man.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> rail nationalisation is very popular, in fact I can see Johnson floating the idea, maybe public consultation.


The Tories have just given Avanti the West Coast Franchise until 2031 - apparently to delay any nationalisation by an incoming Labour government


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2019)

Ah, ok, scrub that one.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Ditch all the shit policies, then get personalities that don't look and sound like fucking idiots. Not personality politics, just removing easy targets that keep labour in opposition.


So, basically,  change everything.  New policies, new people, new premises, new office cat. Its almost as if you want a new _party_.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Wilf said:


> So, basically,  change everything.  New policies, new people, new premises, new office cat. Its almost as if you want a new _party_.


it's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the labour party is like a drunk staggering down the street veering first left then stumbling into the gutter then lurching right and bashing into a wall before zigging into the gutter again and on and on


He'll make it home in the end, mind. Heavily bruised though he be.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 16, 2019)

marty21 said:


> Whereas the Tories were on point on messaging - 'Get Brexit Done' was practically their only message - repeated again and again - clearly that worked.



Helps if nobody in the media pulls you up on the fact you promised numerous times to get it done by Halloween or die in the attempt.


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2019)

any figures for BAME votes yet, over a million for the Tories last time.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 16, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Helps if nobody in the media pulls you up on the fact you promised numerous times to get it done by Halloween or die in the attempt.



TBF I saw them pulled up on that on a number occasions, but it was easy to bat away, by blaming the other parties.


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2019)

looking at the DM headlines, Tories appear to want to govern like the danish social democrats, control of borders, public investment, of course whether they do is another thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> looking at the DM headlines, Tories appear to want to govern like the danish social democrats, control of borders, public investment, of course whether they do is another thing.



The sooner you abandon this idea of Johnson actually investing in things or acting like some kind of reasonable centrist, the less the disappointment will sting.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> One of the other issues as i have been reading is for some time, some of the red wall, is not really that constituency any more, Newcastle Under Lyme for example, is now full of retirees, commuters, a few ex mining towns are like that.


interesting that, would be (fairly) curious to see per seat demographics including on the vote itself. Of course its true that grassroots politics have to be done by local people - you cant/wouldn't want to parachute/astroturf - which leads to the question, who lives in place X exactly to engage in this? Age as well as wealth is an issue too







(not sure as change since when on that graph but gives an impresion)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

ska invita said:


> interesting that, would be (fairly) curious to see per seat demographics including on the vote itself. Of course its true that grassroots politics have to be done by local people - you cant/wouldn't want to parachute/astroturf - which leads to the question, who lives in place X exactly to engage in this? Age as well as wealth is an issue too


this change, what period is it over? or what's your source?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> this change, what period is it over? or what's your source?


ETA'd (not sure as change since when on that graph but gives an impresion)

will have a look though


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> looking at the DM headlines, Tories appear to want to govern like the danish social democrats, control of borders, public investment, of course whether they do is another thing.


if you put a 'national' in there you may find additional points of reference


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> this change, what period is it over? or what's your source?


past 3 decades according to
@centrefortowns


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> looking at the DM headlines, Tories appear to want to govern like the danish social democrats, control of borders, public investment, of course whether they do is another thing.


No. Whenever they get elected they trot out some crap in the early days, May did the same pre and post '17 results, lots of 'tanks on labour's lawn', a workers manifesto blah. It doesn't match the reality. Tories are not going to go scandi social democrats with stronger borders. Maybe the latter but probably not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> No. Whenever they get elected they trot out some crap in the early days, May did the same pre and post '17 results, lots of 'tanks on labour's lawn', a workers manifesto blah. It doesn't match the reality. Tories are not going to go scandi social.democrats with stronger borders. Maybe the latter but probably not.


yeh every incoming prime minister makes nice sounding comments but within a month or two down the line these happy sentiments are forgotten


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> No. Whenever they get elected they trot out some crap in the early days, May did the same pre and post '17 results, lots of 'tanks on labour's lawn', a workers manifesto blah. It doesn't match the reality. Tories are not going to go scandi social democrats with stronger borders. Maybe the latter but probably not.


They understand bungs and bribes though, so chucking some money at their new northern seats is a possibility, but it'll go into tory businessmans hands and the trickledown will be irrelevant as per


----------



## killer b (Dec 16, 2019)

ska invita said:


> interesting that, would be (fairly) curious to see per seat demographics including on the vote itself. Of course its true that grassroots politics have to be done by local people - you cant/wouldn't want to parachute/astroturf - which leads to the question, who lives in place X exactly to engage in this? Age as well as wealth is an issue too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was in Pendle on Thursday, talking to a youngish local - no work round there so all the kids who can move out to Manchester earliest opportunity.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

ska invita said:


> past 3 decades according to
> @centrefortowns


one more from this lot -
Centre For Towns - POLLING: How do our towns intend to vote?
 they did some polling analysis:





Pre this 2019 election:





Also


----------



## chilango (Dec 16, 2019)

One for those who though Labour's policies were far-left idiocy...


> The public are now even more likely to want the railways, water companies, buses, energy companies, Royal Mail, and the health service to be run in the public sector than they were at the last election – to the extent that there is now a "political consensus" among voters.



Public support for nationalisation increased while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader, poll finds


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Perhaps the best way is sack the cat but keep Corbyn and go even further left.
After all, it's working so well.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> One for those who though Labour's policies were far-left idiocy...
> 
> 
> Public support for nationalisation increased while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader, poll finds



Damn and shit - voters must have marked the wrong bits if their papers. 

Rerun the election because the voters got it wrong.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 16, 2019)

Pol Pot was far-left, let’s all stop talking twaddle about Corbyn. He’s a social democrat at most.


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh every incoming prime minister makes nice sounding comments but within a month or two down the line these happy sentiments are forgotten



I know that, and you know that, but Corbyn didn't manage to convince anyone.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

This is quite interesting (ashcroft) - more for the social grade than age. Largest tory share in C2s, and 5% over labour in DEs.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

chilango said:


> One for those who though Labour's policies were far-left idiocy...
> 
> Public support for nationalisation increased while Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader, poll finds


i expect whatever new Lab leader takes place, no matter how to the right, nationalisation (of all key utilities? Probably) will be on the manifesto. Whether its ever carried out (if they win that is!) is another matter. Its one thing writing it down and another having the fight to enact it. My expectation is none of the current lead candidates and their teams  seems as up to the task of carrying these things through, even if they claim to support them.  Hope to be proved wrong. I don't really know much about any of them in all honesty, just impressions. 

*also read John McDonnell saying it wasn't just about nationalisation, it was about significant workers control of those institutions. I believed him. Again, that is something else that might fall off the table. <<<<pointless speculations/concerns really, but have crossed my mind.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Perhaps the best way is sack the cat but keep Corbyn and go even further left.
> After all, it's working so well.



You're are like a fucking Durcell bunny, going on & on & on, FFS you have made your point over various threads, over & over again, it's beyond boring...


----------



## mauvais (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I know that, and you know that, but Corbyn didn't manage to convince anyone.


You don't appear to know that, as you keep banging on about the far left unironically.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> This is quite interesting (ashcroft) - more for the social grade than age. Largest tory share in C2s, and 5% over labour in DEs.



Searching it says C2 is skilled working class, Skilled manual workers. Amongst my friends these are the people earning the most, often with families (can afford children and their upkeep) and buying their own homes. Yeah they work hard but builders/carpenters/plumbers and electricians are earning really good money from what I can see. Look at hourly rates - eye watering.
Small trader capitalism seems to work well for them so Im not surprised by that

DE is depressing though, though i see it includes pensioners, so theres that demographic bomb in there too


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> This is quite interesting (ashcroft) - more for the social grade than age. Largest tory share in C2s, and 5% over labour in DEs.


And this bit


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

In some vox pops the other day, teenager in Blackpool IIRC: "My dad is a scaffolder and he earns £80k, why should he pay more tax etc."
80k, i can believe that. File under C2


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Searching it says C2 is skilled working class, Skilled manual workers. Amongst my friends these are the people earning the most, often with families (can afford children and their upkeep) and buying their own homes. Yeah they work hard but builders/carpenters/plumbers and electricians are earning really good money from what I can see. Look at hourly rates - eye watering.
> Small trader capitalism seems to work well for them so Im not surprised by that
> 
> DE is depressing though, though i see it includes pensioners, so theres that demographic bomb in there too



E only includes pensioners reliant solely on state pension - if they have workplace/private pension provision as well they are categorised on previous occupation - so the DE breakdown is very depressing.

C2 isn't just trades tbf and overall income levels do correspond broadly with social grades


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> E only includes pensioners reliant solely on state pension - if they have workplace/private pension provision as well they are categorised on previous occupation - so the DE breakdown is very depressing.
> 
> C2 isn't just trades tbf and overall income levels do correspond broadly with social grades


thanks


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> I know that, and you know that, but Corbyn didn't manage to convince anyone.


it may surprise you to learn that jeremy corbyn is not the incoming prime minister


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> And this bit


Anyway this shows labour taking 25% of libdem voters and 8% of tory voters against 25% of labour leave voters going direct to tories & 4% to BP, plus 9% labour remainers going libdem, so switch to second referendum didn't cost them in pure %. But it's where those voters were I suppose. Also doesn't factor in the stay at homes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

mauvais said:


> You don't appear to know that, as you keep banging on about the far left unironically.


he knows nothing and not in a jon snow sort of way either
more of a manuel sort of way


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> E only includes pensioners reliant solely on state pension - if they have workplace/private pension provision as well they are categorised on previous occupation - so the DE breakdown is very depressing.
> 
> C2 isn't just trades tbf and overall income levels do correspond broadly with social grades



definitely there are C2s making way way more than £19K...graphs dont show everything


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

ska invita said:


> definitely there are C2s making way way more than £19K...graphs dont show everything


Yeah of course, it's just an average (and dunno how old that graph is tbh, I googled it, suspect it's not that new)


----------



## killer b (Dec 16, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anyway this shows labour taking 25% of libdem voters and 8% of tory voters against 25% of labour leave voters going direct to tories & 4% to BP, plus 9% labour remainers going libdem, so switch to second referendum didn't cost them in pure %. But it's where those voters were I suppose. Also doesn't factor in the stay at homes.


you can't take a % of one thing and assume it's directly comparably to a % of another though.


----------



## Argonia (Dec 16, 2019)

What do politicians do when they lose their seats? Do they have to go to the Jobcentre?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

Argonia said:


> What do politicians do when they lose their seats? Do they have to go to the Jobcentre?


via the bank to make a fat deposit


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2019)

Argonia said:


> What do politicians do when they lose their seats? Do they have to go to the Jobcentre?


well paid non job with whichever industry's arse you were crawling up while in power


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 16, 2019)

Has Williamson officially joined the Galloway/CPGB(ML) alliance yet?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 16, 2019)

killer b said:


> you can't take a % of one thing and assume it's directly comparably to a % of another though.


Well no obviously


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

DotCommunist said:


> well paid non job with whichever industry's arse you were crawling up while in power


after getting a hefty golden goodbye


----------



## gosub (Dec 16, 2019)

Argonia said:


> What do politicians do when they lose their seats? Do they have to go to the Jobcentre?



Never heard the House of Lords called that before


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 16, 2019)

Argonia said:


> What do politicians do when they lose their seats? Do they have to go to the Jobcentre?



IIRC, they get a £22k payout if they lose their seat, enough to keep them going whilst they make a few calls to their 'network' and find an over-paid 'job' of some description.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 16, 2019)

Argonia said:


> What do politicians do when they lose their seats? Do they have to go to the Jobcentre?


They get paid £20+k for their defeat, so probably not any hurry to do anything.

Edit: took me an hour to press send and CS beat me to it


----------



## belboid (Dec 16, 2019)

The amount depends on how long you've been an MP.  22k has become almost writ in the stars, but that just cos its what Angela Smith would have got after 14 years.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 16, 2019)

It is or at least was a month of salary for every year in office, up to a maximum of six.


----------



## belboid (Dec 16, 2019)

mauvais said:


> It is or at least was a month of salary for every year in office, up to a maximum of six.


Loss of Office Payment, equivalent to double statutory redundancy payment, apparently. Plus costs for winding up their office.  Tho both only if they've been in two years at least.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

belboid said:


> Loss of Office Payment, equivalent to double statutory redundancy payment, apparently. Plus costs for winding up their office.  Tho both only if they've been in two years at least.


we should all get money then as it winds me up

i'd love to get a payout if i got sacked, but i don't suppose it's on the cards


----------



## NoXion (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> You mean Labour is relevant now?



They haven't won the election, but they have shifted the frame of public discourse such that even the Tories have to pay lip-service to the notion of increased spending in the north, which is where Labour's vote got split by the Brexit party, and the place that the Tories have to thank for their recent victory.



> Bullshit. Labour got absolutely hammered because they put themselves before what people wanted, made themselves look fucking stupid, had high profile fucking idiots leading the campaign, and generally looked inept.
> Corbyn came over as a moron, 2 left shoes is the ideal candidate for the press to fuck about with, *the policies were tired old extremist crap*, and the "errrm" position on Brexit was pure stupidity.



Speaking of bullshit, why didn't the "extremist crap" which was front andf centre in the 2017 campaign lead to a bigger defeat? Why was it instead that Labour did better on a number of metrics than it had been doing for many years?

It speaks to the character of life in the UK under late capitalism that you seem to think, in all seriousness, that Corbyn's views are extremist. He's not a commie and you're just as fucking foolish as what you think of as the great Brexit-voting unwashed you look down your nose at, if that's really where you think Corbyn's politics lies.



> Much as I don't like it, the electorate have soundly voted for Brexit so, as the UK is a democracy, elected politicians must work for the people, not themselves.
> Labour came out as Errm or remain, and the electorate punished them for it, this giving Britain a five year bad hair day from a bastard with seriously bad hair.



Given that here you admit that it was Labour's Remain position that contributed to its defeat (and having established that the "commie extremism" argument is fucking bollocks), I'm having a hard time understanding why you seem to be expressing a great deal of personal antipathy towards Corbyn. His own views on the EU are a matter of public record; it was the right-wingers in the PLP that you love so much who are the ones who twisted Corbyn's arm into pivoting Labour towards Leave and the consequent loss at the polls.



> This election result was the consequence of a set of idiots, led by an idiot, with easy to ridicule idiots as his main team, ignoring the electorate.
> There's only one cure - Purge the far left, especially Corbyn, then find new people the press will find it far more difficult to attack.



The press will *always* attack the Labour party you absolute fucking idiot! Do you not remember the wink-wink nudge-nudge "son of a Marxist" nonsense and cryptic anti-Semitism that was being directed towards Ed Miliband?


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2019)

been talking to fair few 20 somethings, they are devasted, say there was real gloom in the city centre, thursday night, say they were in bubble, say they will never own a home now, the impulse that is behind the hong kong events, i suspect we  are going to hear from them on the streets quite soon.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 16, 2019)

Just when Donald Trump Don Troooomp had gone AWOL, NoXion summons him back.


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2019)

> In the absence of that leadership, other pseudo-patriotic voices have stepped in. Penny Pearson, 60, who helps to run the committee at Fishburn, tells me with some pride how the club hosted three events for a tweed-jacketed Nigel Farage and the Brexit party, down in the room with the Hardie banner. They catered for 100 each time and more came. Like many here Pearson would have voted for Farage, but went Conservative “just to make sure” that Corbyn’s Labour had no chance.



Fuck me, Falange was invited to speak at the Fishburn Miner Club, three times!, world turned upside down.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 16, 2019)

treelover said:


> Fuck me, Falange was invited to speak at the Fishburn Miner Club, three times!, world turned upside down.



"He's a lad innhe, one of us, likes a pint, hates the fuckin frogs"


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

NoXion said:


> They haven't won the election, but they have shifted the frame of public discourse such that even the Tories have to pay lip-service to the notion of increased spending in the north, which is where Labour's vote got split by the Brexit party, and the place that the Tories have to thank for their recent victory.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Just when Donald Trump Don Troooomp had gone AWOL, NoXion summons him back.


Yeh well the twat's due a shoeing


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 16, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Screw it, to save waiting for them to deflect, I'll answer. The Labour left have Never managed a successful 2 term run.
> 
> That would suggest far left wing ideas are crap in that they don't work in reality, and the whole fucking daft leaning is unpopular. Labour only get in when the Tories fuck themselves over, never because the Labour left have ever managed anything.
> This election was especially shit, the left having taken over the whole job, stuffed a total fucking idiot into the leadership, then watched with support when he chose fucking idiots like 2 left shoes into his shadow cabinet.
> ...


If council House building and nationalised utilities is far left then every government between Attlee and thatcher was far left so there's plenty that have lasted more than one term. In fact there's even some far left tory governments in there.


----------



## stolinski (Dec 16, 2019)

we're gonna need new and extraspecial memes for the forthcoming shitshow


----------



## Don Troooomp (Dec 17, 2019)

NoXion said:


> Speaking of bullshit, why didn't the "extremist crap" which was front andf centre in the 2017 campaign lead to a bigger defeat?



Because the tories were a fucking mess. Labour only ever do well when the tories fuck up, not because they're any good.
If that changes, we see Labour governments that stay in power.
On a personal note, my mum is in long term care and absolutely dependent on good NHS services, but Labour losing all the time means tories, and tories fuck up the NHS.


----------



## bimble (Dec 17, 2019)

Kenan Malik on the dysfunctional relationship between media and politicians that helped make this election such a circus. Think he's right that the disinformation about the child on the floor was the worst bit, 'the cynicism that can turn any truth into a lie'.
TOO SCEPTICAL AND NOT SCEPTICAL ENOUGH


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 17, 2019)

I've just read this piece for the first time. The Quietus | Features | Last House On The Left: Following Jeremy Corbyn's Campaign Trail

Was it ever posted here? It is one of the most accurately prophetic articles I've read, particularly in light of the polls saying Brexit was only the second most important reason Labour voters shifted. Those who think Corbyn lost because the press smeared him should have a read.

Contains the should-be-immortal line "He doesn't just have skeletons in his closet, he hangs up his shirts in an ossuary."


----------



## mauvais (Dec 17, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I've just read this piece for the first time. The Quietus | Features | Last House On The Left: Following Jeremy Corbyn's Campaign Trail
> 
> Was it ever posted here? It is one of the most accurately prophetic articles I've read, particularly in light of the polls saying Brexit was only the second most important reason Labour voters shifted. Those who think Corbyn lost because the press smeared him should have a read.
> 
> Contains the should-be-immortal line "He doesn't just have skeletons in his closet, he hangs up his shirts in an ossuary."


It took me until about half way through to realise when that was written - not last week.


----------



## Poi E (Dec 17, 2019)

"Taylor Parkes visits Chelmsford - Thatcher's _Agincourt _".

When did she invade France?


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 17, 2019)

mauvais said:


> It took me until about half way through to realise when that was written - not last week.



Yeah, 2015. It's so spookily accurate that it feels like he's gone back and edited it.

I admit I was among those many people who for a long time dismissed the attacks on Corbyn as right wing smears without doing too much digging myself. And much of it was smears of course. But during the election campaign when people started saying 'terrorist-loving anti-semite' to me at the mention of Corbyn, I finally looked up the accusations in more detail so I could reply, and realised that the left of Labour had indeed decided to ignore the fact that he's spent quite a lot of time hanging around with (and approving of) total cunts. 

The right wing press threw a lot of shit at Corbyn from the moment he got in, and most of it didn't stick. The two accusations that did stick did so because there was enough truth to them that even a life-long labour supporter could start to have doubts. Reading the Taylor Parkes article made me feel that the left did to a certain extent do what they so often accuse the right of doing: ignored the nasty aspects of a leader for the sake of getting the program they want.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2019)

mauvais said:


> It took me until about half way through to realise when that was written - not last week.


this bit near the beginning indicates its age


----------



## xenon (Dec 17, 2019)

mauvais said:


> It took me until about half way through to realise when that was written - not last week.



Heh, me too. Only when it spoke of Cameron and Osbourne.


----------



## rekil (Dec 17, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Has Williamson officially joined the Galloway/CPGB(ML) alliance yet?


If he has I haven't seen it. Not even a courtesy follow back on the twitter so far. Appearing alongside Galloway at 3 hour events is one thing, putting up with him dishing out orders from behind his chippendale desk and raking in cash for him and the likes of Brar is something else.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 17, 2019)

Also, bad leadership is also transformational.  In, like, a bad way, obvs.  No leader — even in a chaotic style — is less harmful than a bad leader.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Also, bad leadership is also transformational.  In, like, a bad way, obvs.  No leader — even in a chaotic style — is less harmful than a bad leader.


Wrong thread. But yeah.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 17, 2019)

copliker said:


> If he has I haven't seen it. Not even a courtesy follow back on the twitter so far. Appearing alongside Galloway at 3 hour events is one thing, putting up with him dishing out orders from behind his chippendale desk and raking in cash for him and the likes of Brar is something else.


Reckon he is holding fire pending events. Suspect that to the corbyn/milne sphere he was not persona non grata and he's waiting to see how it plays out with new leadership


----------



## treelover (Dec 17, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I've just read this piece for the first time. The Quietus | Features | Last House On The Left: Following Jeremy Corbyn's Campaign Trail
> 
> Was it ever posted here? It is one of the most accurately prophetic articles I've read, particularly in light of the polls saying Brexit was only the second most important reason Labour voters shifted. Those who think Corbyn lost because the press smeared him should have a read.
> 
> Contains the should-be-immortal line "He doesn't just have skeletons in his closet, he hangs up his shirts in an ossuary."



Grimly prescient


----------



## stolinski (Dec 17, 2019)

treelover said:


> Grimly prescient


I skimmed it and all it is for me is just another example of Corbyn bashing by someone who should have got behind a genuine far left representative. I've been so sick of all the attack pieces in supposedly leftwing places like London Review of Books and Guardian that I didn't really feel like reading another one in detail. Particularly because this piece seems just the same as the rest, saying Corbyn is incompetent and supports terrorists lalala, I find all these very vague allegations pathetic, i've been on a march where other people were shouting 'up with Hamas', so what, that doesn't make me a terrorist.
Let's not forget the Tories in the 1980s were saying "hang mandela" (Federation of Conservative Students) and Thatcher called the ANC terrorists - source: The Conservative party's uncomfortable relationship with Nelson Mandela. Yes Corbyn expressed support for the IRA back then, so did a lot of the radical left. And it was Blair not him shaking hands with those scumbags McGuiness and Adams (who by the way directly ordered killings, as Kevin Myers says in his excellent book about the Troubles 'Watching the Door' ). Of course now it seems prescient because all the negativity helped defeated a genuine far left manifesto, so now all these commentators can crow and say they told us so. I find it all a bit chicken and egg, I wonder what would have happened if the left had actually got behind Corbyn. But of course that's not what happened and now we all have to suck it up. Anyway that's my two cents on that article that everyone else seems to like.


----------



## treelover (Dec 17, 2019)

> i've been on a march where other people were shouting 'up with Hamas', so what, that doesn't make me a terrorist.



but did you challenge them?, I recall a Palestine march where some young men were putting out anti-semitic literature, I went over to the SWP guy who organised it, (I will say he now has a senior role in Love Music/Hate Racism.) he said "but these people are overwhelmed by suffering", er, they were from Attercliffe! Another time, a crew were chanting 'Palestine, for the river to the sea', put my hand over megaphone and got chased down the block, no leftist/liberal leftist came to my aid.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 17, 2019)

stolinski said:


> I skimmed it and all it is for me is just another example of Corbyn bashing by someone who should have got behind a genuine far left representative. I've been so sick of all the attack pieces in supposedly leftwing places like London Review of Books and Guardian that I didn't really feel like reading another one in detail. Particularly because this piece seems just the same as the rest, saying Corbyn is incompetent and supports terrorists lalala, I find all these very vague allegations pathetic, i've been on a march where other people were shouting 'up with Hamas', so what, that doesn't make me a terrorist.
> Let's not forget the Tories in the 1980s were saying "hang mandela" (Federation of Conservative Students) and Thatcher called the ANC terrorists - source: The Conservative party's uncomfortable relationship with Nelson Mandela. Yes Corbyn expressed support for the IRA back then, so did a lot of the radical left. And it was Blair not him shaking hands with those scumbags McGuiness and Adams (who by the way directly ordered killings, as Kevin Myers says in his excellent book about the Troubles 'Watching the Door' ). Of course now it seems prescient because all the negativity helped defeated a genuine far left manifesto, so now all these commentators can crow and say they told us so. I find it all a bit chicken and egg, I wonder what would have happened if the left had actually got behind Corbyn. But of course that's not what happened and now we all have to suck it up. Anyway that's my two cents on that article that everyone else seems to like.


Ever wonder if you might be part of the problem...?

Also you seem to be living in some alternate reality. More of 'the left' got behind the Labour Party than seemed imaginable a few years ago. Half a million party members. The idea 'the left' didn't get behind Corbyn is so weird. These boards are full of complaints by radical leftists that _too many_ of their comrades have got involved. You may be confusing leftists with guardian columnists or something. Odd.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2019)

I do think Corbyn's unpopularity rating can't be ignored. Somehow I was hoping it wouldn't be a big factor in this election, just as I was hoping brexit would be trumped by the Labour manifesto. But clearly it was a big factor. It and brexit were the two biggest factors, perhaps, both of them trumping the other big factors, which are that Boris Johnson is a total cunt and a decade of tory misrule. 

But I'm not totally sure that article properly articulates why Corbyn ended up so unpopular. I'm not sure it was to do with his poor decisions or remarks in the past. He has made anti-semitic comments in the past, confusing anti-zionism with anti-semitism in a way that someone in his position should never do. But how many people actually know that - I only know it because someone posted a link to it on here. Mostly the story was about how he had failed to deal with anti-semitism in the party, but I don't see the pattern of who failed to vote labour this time as supporting a claim that this was a big issue - 'liberal' metropolitan areas ok with it, smaller towns not ok with it. Hmmm, really? 

I'm really not sure his fitness as a prospective war leader, or somesuch, was much of a factor either, although maybe it was, and maybe that resonated much more strongly with older people. Just from bits I've heard from people, it seems a lot of it is the _perception_ of Corbyn as 'hard' left, even if they may not be able to specify when challenged what it is about him that makes him that. 

The other thing to remember is the age divide in all this. Corbyn wasn't unpopular among the under-40s, but he was remarkably unpopular with the over-65s. 'small c' conservatives almost universally loathed him.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 17, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I do think Corbyn's unpopularity rating can't be ignored. Somehow I was hoping it wouldn't be a big factor in this election, just as I was hoping brexit would be trumped by the Labour manifesto. But clearly it was a big factor. It and brexit were the two biggest factors, perhaps, both of them trumping the other big factors, which are that Boris Johnson is a total cunt and a decade of tory misrule.
> 
> But I'm not totally sure that article properly articulates why Corbyn ended up so unpopular. I'm not sure it was to do with his poor decisions or remarks in the past. He has made anti-semitic comments in the past, confusing anti-zionism with anti-semitism in a way that someone in his position should never do. But how many people actually know that - I only know it because someone posted a link to it on here. Mostly the story was about how he had failed to deal with anti-semitism in the party, but I don't see the pattern of who failed to vote labour this time as supporting a claim that this was a big issue - 'liberal' metropolitan areas ok with it, smaller towns not ok with it. Hmmm, really?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure anti-semitism (some real, some imagined) was what did for him. It was him consorting with enemies of Britain and/or the West*. The anti-semitism thing then got loaded onto all that and amplified it.

*You might not interpret it in that way. Lots of people do.


----------



## Brainaddict (Dec 17, 2019)

On the leftism, I think people would have accepted most of his program but it was played very badly. It's true there was dishonesty from the press about how hard left his manifesto was. But also he and parts of the party fed into that. Whatever leftists might think of it, I don't hear people clamouring against private schools. I think a lot of people who might dream of success or even winning the lottery would book their kids into private school first thing the next day. Threatening to end them all is seen as pretty hard left among many. Labour was giving signals on things like this but to who?  Who was demanding free broadband? Nobody. Who were they talking to? So there was a perception of him - stirred up by the right for sure - as further left than any PM anybody had known before and for reasons best known to himself and his followers, he played it up rather than downplaying. Strange strategic decisions were made, and without Brexit and calling Hamas 'brothers' he might have got away with it. But put together with those it was all over.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2019)

treelover said:


> Another time, a crew were chanting 'Palestine, for the river to the sea', put my hand over megaphone and got chased down the block, no leftist/liberal leftist came to my aid.


perhaps if you'd used to precious gift of language to talk to them then you'd have persuaded them of your good intentions


----------



## kebabking (Dec 17, 2019)

It was a magic mix, all of which fed into each other.

TripAdvisor call it the waterfall effect: if you have a problem during your stay, even if it gets fixed straight away, you are more likely to notice and mark down other things: if there's confusion at check in you're more likely to think that the room is dirty, if you have to hunt for the remote and get new batteries you're more likely to think the breakfast was pitiful.

If you're offended by Corbyns' bizarre choice of friends you're more likely to decide that he's anti-Semitic rather than just willfully blind to it in others, if you thought his day-after-being-elected-leader lunch at the Argentine embassy was crass and ill-thought-out, you're more likely to view his forays into Irish politics as being more sinister than niave useful idiocy.

Labours problem was that there was something for everyone to be offended about in Corbyns' _journey, _and then more stuff to be viewed negatively in the light of that first peak in his cupboard of delights.

A bigger problem for Labour is that this stuff has been glaringly obvious in every single opinion poll since he became leader - he's been astonishingly unpopular with the electorate for his entire tenure, to the point where for a good many of those polls, he was viewed _less positively than the incumbent Tory PM by Labour voters.
_
Read that again: Corbyn was viewed as a worse choice for PM by Labour voters than whichever Tory was PM.

Labours real problem has been that for four years, they haven't cared - or noticed - that their candidate for PM was viewed negatively by the vast majority of the electorate. Well, they know now....


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 17, 2019)

treelover from today onward my excuse for any untoward or objectionable behaviour will be...
They/we/I’m/you are from Attercliffe, just off Staniforth road!!
It’s where our union branch meetings are.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2019)

The problem with summing the whole thing up as 'people didn't trust Corbyn' is, well, look at the man who beat him.

It might be fair to say that Corbyn struggled to gain ground _with that portion of the electorate that cares about people being trustworthy_. But it seems pretty clear to me that a lot, a lot of people are outside that category. Johnson has done little with his life besides stack up material evidence of his own incompetence, amorality and lack of even passing familiarity with the concept of truthfulness. And yet there the fucker sits.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 17, 2019)

Another point is that whenever the anti-Corbynists tried to unseat him as leader, they were unable to come up with anyone who looked like a plausible alternative. I loathed Blair, but the fucker at least looked plausible as a world leader. Could you say the same about Owen Smith or any of the rest of them?

In fact, it says something about Blairism that it was unable to produce a successor generation to whom Tony's Torch could be passed.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

kebabking said:


> It was a magic mix, all of which fed into each other.
> 
> TripAdvisor call it the waterfall effect: if you have a problem during your stay, even if it gets fixed straight away, you are more likely to notice and mark down other things: if there's confusion at check in you're more likely to think that the room is dirty, if you have to hunt for the remote and get new batteries you're more likely to think the breakfast was pitiful.
> 
> ...


All this is true, and yet... 2017 showed none of this was set in stone, it showed that voters would put their personal animosity for him aside - even change their opinion on him (IIRC his approval ratings even went above zero briefly) - with the right policies and the right campaign. That didn't happen this time for various reasons - a toxic mix of brexit and a more hardened view on the Labour leadership IMO, and a much more effective campaign from the tories - which everyone now _definitely_ knew were terminal problems. But the same people also knew for sure there were terminal problems in 2017, and they were wrong last time round. 

It's not that we didn't care about or notice Corbyn's polling: it's that we thought it could be shifted. That's why there was thousands of people out on the doorstep for the whole of the campaign. And while there was a lot of negative responses from voters, to me they didn't seem that different to the doorstep in 2017 - I left campaigning on election night in 2017 despondent and convinced we were going to be wiped out, only to be proved wrong by a wave of voters that just hadn't been picked up by the canvassers. It's not unreasonable to have had some expectation (or hope at least?) that this might happen again.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 17, 2019)

Optimism is very welcome at the moment.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Another point is that whenever the anti-Corbynists tried to unseat him as leader, they were unable to come up with anyone who looked like a plausible alternative. I loathed Blair, but the fucker at least looked plausible as a world leader. Could you say the same about Owen Smith or any of the rest of them?
> 
> In fact, it says something about Blairism that it was unable to produce a successor generation to whom Tony's Torch could be passed.



Big reason for that can be summed up in two words: Iraq War. Voting in favour of ending the principle of free education was bad enough. But voting for Tony's War was unforgiveable, and every Blair loyalist did so. That's a huge part of what Corbyn becoming leader represented - renewal post-Iraq War. And it was a necessary renewal.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 17, 2019)

Johnson and Corbyn were/are, in their different ways, products of the crisis of British society.

In the old days, the Tories would never have let the likes of Johnson anywhere near the hot seat.


----------



## Cid (Dec 17, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Another point is that whenever the anti-Corbynists tried to unseat him as leader, they were unable to come up with anyone who looked like a plausible alternative. I loathed Blair, but the fucker at least looked plausible as a world leader. Could you say the same about Owen Smith or any of the rest of them?
> 
> In fact, it says something about Blairism that it was unable to produce a successor generation to whom Tony's Torch could be passed.



To be fair there was an element of any 'plausible' centrist not wanting to wade into something that Corbyn was essentially guaranteed to win. Not that there were many options anyway, but iirc Benn was riding high among the centrists. And that leading light of great decisions, Chuka Umunna.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Optimism is very welcome at the moment.


Whereas pessimism is more realistic


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 17, 2019)

For me the thing with this stuff is that, sitting here with the benefit of hindsight, does anyone want to argue how a more electable leader would have actually done better? Because I can't see it. You can take it as read that they'd have been more remain so they wouldn't have done any better in the northern leave seats that have swung Tory. They already lost Scotland. And they oversaw ever declining votes prior to his election. Where would more of the same be winning the 100 plus seats they'd need to be the winners they think they are?

I don't really expect much of an answer as I've seen literally nothing along those lines from all the Corbyn critics since he was elected. Not from the PLP, not from the press, not even on here. It seems to be assumed that there's an obvious 'more media friendly leader -> mighty victory' line which doesn't actually need anything else.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 17, 2019)

Cid said:


> To be fair there was an element of any 'plausible' centrist not wanting to wade into something that Corbyn was essentially guaranteed to win. Not that there were many options anyway, but iirc Benn was riding high among the centrists. And that leading light of great decisions, Chuka Umunna.


I've not seen Hilary's name floated among those of possible successors to JC. And he would still be young enough to serve, surely? That must say something.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2019)

He was too old n'all. How can old people be expected to vote for someone who's their age???


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 17, 2019)

The fact that they chose Ed over the other Miliband is another sign that the Blair era couldn't be carried on.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> For me the thing with this stuff is that, sitting here with the benefit of hindsight, does anyone want to argue how a more electable leader would have actually done better? Because I can't see it. You can take it as read that they'd have been more remain so they wouldn't have done any better in the northern leave seats that have swung Tory. They already lost Scotland. And they oversaw ever declining votes prior to his election. Where would more of the same be winning the 100 plus seats they'd need to be the winners they think they are?


I'm not sure you can take it as read a more centrist leader would be remain tbh - plenty of centrist MPs were well aware of the leave juggernaut heading their way: the FBPE queen over the water herself Yvette Cooper quietly supported honouring the referendum (this may have changed, I haven't checked) - I guess it's possible someone with a better grasp of the PLP and more friends in the media might have made a better fist of selling some sort of customs union compromise and not had to pivot. Fuck knows though.


----------



## Cid (Dec 17, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> For me the thing with this stuff is that, sitting here with the benefit of hindsight, does anyone want to argue how a more electable leader would have actually done better? Because I can't see it. You can take it as read that they'd have been more remain so they wouldn't have done any better in the northern leave seats that have swung Tory. They already lost Scotland. And they oversaw ever declining votes prior to his election. Where would more of the same be winning the 100 plus seats they'd need to be the winners they think they are?
> 
> I don't really expect much of an answer as I've seen literally nothing along those lines from all the Corbyn critics since he was elected. Not from the PLP, not from the press, not even on here. It seems to be assumed that there's an obvious 'more media friendly leader -> mighty victory' line which doesn't actually need anything else.



Full media friendly, centrist dad, strong remain line... I think they might have swung a few seats - a handful of labour losses were in areas close to 50:50. But I do literally mean one handful, and my putative 1997 Blair transported to 2019 with no baggage is obviously not a real thing. And a lot of the newer activist base would have downed tools - certainly those that I know were far more interested in policy than brexit. And, looking at results from 2001 to now there is also every chance they'd have done worse.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 17, 2019)

A more electable leader wouldn't have come with the baggage that corbyn did and would have sold his strategy better, like being neutral - who was impressed by that?. His statements that he won the arguments shows how out of touch he is.


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## Cid (Dec 17, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> A more electable leader wouldn't have come with the baggage that corbyn did and would have sold his strategy better, like being neutral - who was impressed by that?. His statements that he won the arguments shows how out of touch he is.



With what brexit position?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 17, 2019)

I think the result we got was what we expected in 2017, the reality just somehow got deferred for a couple of years due to Maybot being useless at campaigning.  There was also less complacency from the Tories and their media backers this time around. I think in 2017 they didn’t feel like they had to try very hard, nearly got caught out, so really ramped up the vitriol this time around. Savage attacks in the press, plus coordinated hit pieces from ex-Labour people and Jewish groups. Danger to children etc. Kept Labour on the defensive.  

Meanwhile, the golden child, who also hangs his clothes in an ossuary, managed to dodge any robust questioning and was tightly managed so as not to allow situations where there might be gaffs and fuck ups to occur.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 17, 2019)

There's a danger of chucking baby out with bathwater here. A critical lookback at corbyn and the political movement around him ('corbynism') is absolutely right obv and there is plenty to highlight, goes without saying.

But in '17 from a position of not insensible people predicting a 100 seat majority labour ran a campaign which turned everything on its head, people can say now oh they didn't win or whatever but it defied everybody's expectations and it offered hope, it did. Policy that in current climate is quite transformative was being talked about, not as pipe dreams or something to laugh at but as something that could and might happen. 

The tories were rattled to fuck, even from the outside looking in - inasmuch as not being able to embrace the labourism and the parts that to me (and many others on 'left') are unpleasant - it was for a moment glorious. That momentum carried over, post election polling showed labour would have won a majority (yeah yeah I know post election polling is not exactly reliable) and that carried over for a good long stretch, labour were ahead until, what, mid 19?

The cards fell for labour in '17 tbf, the (presumably hostile) leaking of the manifesto early was a masterstroke, May was fucking awful in the campaign, the dementia tax and 'nothing has changed', but nonetheless labour's relative success was beyond expectation.

It's interesting that this time labour policy wasn't talked about in same way, didn't get same wow factor, despite the '19 manifesto going further - I say interesting, it just got drowned by a range of factors (tories learning lessons from '17 and running a nasty and effective campaign, labour rushing more and more policy out to try and get that '17 positivity, and the big one brexit) but in haste to learn lessons of this one I think people are forgetting the lessons of the previous one.

Danger of being too limited in terms of achievable policy, short termist, can't go that far etc. I mean some truth to that too but it's all about proportions isn't it.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 17, 2019)

Cid said:


> With what brexit position?


It goes right back to the original referendum, he was always lukewarm about remaining and this meant that he or members of his party could never oppose brexit properly. This vote is just the logical conclusion of that.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 17, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> It goes right back to the original referendum, he was always lukewarm about remaining and this meant that he or members of his party could never oppose brexit properly. This vote is just the logical conclusion of that.


Lol


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

incredible.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 17, 2019)

Why?. His strategy over brexit has been a mess, if he did believe some lexit rubbish, he never put if forward. The only narrative people in leave areas had was Johnson's and Farage's.


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## Cid (Dec 17, 2019)

If only there were a party that had campaigned with a strong remain policy that might tell us how taking that line would have played out.


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## treelover (Dec 17, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> treelover from today onward my excuse for any untoward or objectionable behaviour will be...
> They/we/I’m/you are from Attercliffe, just off Staniforth road!!
> It’s where our union branch meetings are.



Ok,but of course, I meant they weren't from Palestine.


----------



## treelover (Dec 17, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> I think the result we got was what we expected in 2017, the reality just somehow got deferred for a couple of years due to Maybot being useless at campaigning.  There was also less complacency from the Tories and their media backers this time around. I think in 2017 they didn’t feel like they had to try very hard, nearly got caught out, so really ramped up the vitriol this time around. Savage attacks in the press, plus coordinated hit pieces from ex-Labour people and Jewish groups. Danger to children etc. Kept Labour on the defensive.
> 
> Meanwhile, the golden child, who also hangs his clothes in an ossuary, managed to dodge any robust questioning and was tightly managed so as not to allow situations where there might be gaffs and fuck ups to occur.




Boy, were they savage, that piece in the Sun Online from the 'affable' Newton Dunn was quickly removed.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 17, 2019)

Cid said:


> If only there were a party that had campaigned with a strong remain policy that might tell us how taking that line would have played out.


If only.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 17, 2019)

It's all just a load of people saying "I was right all the time and this result proves it", isn't it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's all just a load of people saying "I was right all the time and this result proves it", isn't it.


They could sell t-shirts to raise funds with, I told you so! on.


----------



## Cid (Dec 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's all just a load of people saying "I was right all the time and this result proves it", isn't it.



That is admittedly true.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 17, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> They could sell t-shirts to raise funds with, I told you so! on.



I’m going to get one for five years time , hopefully it will still fit , and I’m still alive


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

This piece is good about what Labour should do next fwiw

A party that works and wins for working people will need to understand us first


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 17, 2019)

There's no one factor to blame for Labours defeat.

Corbyn vs Johnson in 2017 would likely have been a decent win but the man's never been charismatic enough to win over the gruff builders, plumbers and delivery driver types who make up much of the modern working class. At the same time Labour has drifted away from supporting these people and mattering to them the last few decades, instead they've been sold the lie that immigration is to blame for all ills and Corbyn was never going to all out and support anti-immigration. Something that must be applauded at least. They've been sold this by politicians from all sides and the media which is solidly supporting capital and status quo.

 The media at best approaches left matters from a "oh we must be jolly and play nice with different people" perspective and never really sells a different way of living or working together.

Remainers never managed to work together and the electorate was fed the fuck up with Brexit. If there had been a majority for a single soft Brexit or customs union in may put in front of the house we'd be approaching a Norway plus settlement with the EU or a second ref. Instead they fucked about and left a hypothetical second ref on table. Boris was clever enough to note that making this a election about Brexit it  would act as a second ref by default. And guess which side would be split by that (hint not leave) 

Lastly Corbyn is filled with a lot of baggage and after 4 solid years there's no way the constant barrage of traitor by all sources would make a difference. I like the guy and he can work a crowd but he's not able to translate that to TV audiences or the unconverted. 


There's probably more but this will do for now.


----------



## A380 (Dec 17, 2019)




----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's all just a load of people saying "I was right all the time and this result proves it", isn't it.


Even the corbynites!.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> Even the corbynites!.


is that happening here?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2019)

this also is good.

Labour’s Economic Plans: What Went Wrong? | Novara Media


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's all just a load of people saying "I was right all the time and this result proves it", isn't it.


There's something here for everyone


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 17, 2019)

It’s not hard - Labour got wiped out due to not backing Brexit and Corbyn being massively unpopular (apart from mainly the London bubble).


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 17, 2019)




----------



## Marty1 (Dec 18, 2019)

Corbyn didn’t lose because of Murdoch.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

A380 said:


> View attachment 193296


It'd be more interesting if it showed 'did not vote', especially for 2019.


----------



## mod (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm still in shock and mourning the election result. I've never felt this down after an election. It's so fucking depressing. 

They had BoJo on the ropes and Brexit was far from certain. Now look. 

Johnson, Raab, priti patel, Mogg are horrible, horrible cunts. 

Sorry, not much value to this post. I just feel so devastated.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 18, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Corbyn didn’t lose because of Murdoch.




Oh thanks for this! I was really keen to know Maajid Nawaz's take on the result.


----------



## killer b (Dec 18, 2019)

it's best if you don't reply, it's just confusing for everyone else cause it looks like you're talking to yourself.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Dec 18, 2019)

I've heard some pretty disingenuous bollocks the past few days but a couple of points that stick out are that Corbyn was unwilling to form a unity government after a vote of no confidence. It was my understanding it was Swinson who was unwilling because she kept saying how divisive Corbyn was and that Ken Clarke or Harriet Harmon should.
Second one is this morning and that cunt Blair's response 'Labour should've accepted the result of the referendum' I mean wtf? He was constantly blabbering on from the sidelines about how we need a second referendum.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I've heard some pretty disingenuous bollocks the past few days but a couple of points that stick out are that Corbyn was unwilling to form a unity government after a vote of no confidence. It was my understanding it was Swinson who was unwilling because she kept saying how divisive Corbyn was and that Ken Clarke or Harriet Harmon should.
> Second one is this morning and that cunt Blair's response 'Labour should've accepted the result of the referendum' I mean wtf? He was constantly blabbering on from the sidelines about how we need a second referendum.


Did Blair really say that? Lol


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Did Blair really say that? Lol


From Guardian feed



			
				Blair said:
			
		

> What we should have done, following June 2016, is accepted the result, said it was for the government to negotiate an agreement but reserved our right to critique that agreement and should it fail to be a good deal for the country, advocate the final decision should rest with the people. Ultimately, we might have lost the most ardent Brexit support, but I believe, with different leadership, we would have kept much of our vote in traditional Labour areas, whilst benefiting from the fact that even in those areas, the majority of those voting Labour, were Remain.
> 
> Instead we pursued a path of almost comic indecision, alienated both sides of the debate, leaving our voters without guidance or leadership.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> From Guardian feed


So Blair thinks Labour should have followed Corbyn's preferred strategy rather than the one Blair banged on about, using his weight to force the issue in the press and the labour party, again and again. Amazing stuff.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

Tbf I suppose Blair's does differ a bit because he's still wedded to this second referendum bollocks whereas Corbyn wanted to force a GE and strike a labour brexit deal. But anyway, lol


----------



## killer b (Dec 18, 2019)

the fucking cheek of Blair there. I'm speechless.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 18, 2019)

I liked this bit


> Blair says he is cautious about this. In the Tony Blair Institute, they take a view that they must give practical advise when they are advising leaders around the world. There is no point giving advice that will be rejected.


_Oh we don't want to advise people not to boil their political opponents alive because that advice will be rejected._


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Dec 18, 2019)

Surely the age demographic of party support taken in conjunction with the age demographic of where people get their news from must go someway to explaining Labour's poor performance?

Anyway I'm just finishing off 'The Making of the English Working Class' and one key lesson it seems to offer is that unless a movement is born out of the culture, practices and desires of a class (or can at least genuinely engage with that culture, those practices and desires) then it cannot hope to achieve its goals. Another is that any such movement needs its own spaces to share, interrogate and build on its experiences. There was a period when the Labour Party may have been able to play a role in meeting the demands of both these lessons; in these immediate post-election days it is hard to see any such remaining capacity.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Azrael (Dec 18, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> From Guardian feed


All those not-so-worthies sermonizing about how they'd have done it differently should remember that, by denying the existence of hard choices, Vote Leave's gleefully dishonest, xenophobic horrowshow of a campaign made a sensible Brexit vanishingly unlikely.

Labour can be rightly criticized for their six tests, "jobs first Brexit" and the rest of the nonsense churned out by those who knew better, but even if they'd advocated Norway consistently and honestly from the start, in a climate where even May's very hard Brexit was denounced as BINO, it would've been an uphill struggle, via a steep incline, on ice.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2019)

Azrael said:


> All those not-so-worthies sermonizing about how they'd have done it differently should remember that, by denying the existence of hard choices, Vote Leave's gleefully dishonest, xenophobic horrowshow of a campaign made a sensible Brexit vanishingly unlikely.
> 
> Labour can be rightly criticized for their six tests, "jobs first Brexit" and the rest of the nonsense churned out by those who knew better, but even if they'd advocated Norway consistently and honestly from the start, in a climate where even May's very hard Brexit was denounced as BINO, it would've been an uphill struggle, via a steep incline, on ice.


Don't think I quite agree with that. Norway +, in the form of 'Common Market II', came about as close as anything last year to winning the support of parliament. If Labour had advocated that from the start, it might have found some tough going initially, but May's deal would still have failed in just the way it did, and then Labour would have been left in a vastly improved position.

I say the above partly with the benefit of hindsight, but there was always a strong moral case for something akin to Norway + - 'leave the EU but stay in EFTA' reflects a referendum split nearly 50:50  with no detail of what any brexit might look like much more accurately than any other form of brexit.

imo Labour made the biggest mistake tactically by going along with May's assertion that the referendum result demanded new immigration controls (these are also new emigration controls, of course, something that is all too rarely pointed out). It didn't. Immigration wasn't on the ballot paper. Ed Milliband made the same mistake in bowing to tory pressure to bang on about immigration. Concede that this is a source of the UK's social ills and you already concede a great deal more on all kinds of areas to the right.

Still might not have worked, of course, but it might have avoided the ludicrous situation in which Labour contrived to find itself the party hardest hit by the mess of brexit, a mess created entirely by the Tory party.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> _Oh we don't want to advise people not to boil their political opponents alive because that advice will be rejected._



But we wouldn't want to reject taking their money on such trivial grounds, oh no.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain


----------



## B.I.G (Dec 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain



LOL @ lexit.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

Not an open borders position this, open borders is a nonsense without a dramatic closing of wealth gap across the world, but I would rather a system that didn't allow freedom of movement or whatever we call it based on origin or nationality, or social background/economic power fwiw, but on need


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

B.I.G said:


> LOL @ lexit.


Oh ok, so it's bad to think immigration should be based on fairness to migrants than on which countries a state has trade deals with, ok sound


----------



## treelover (Dec 18, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Oh thanks for this! I was really keen to know Maajid Nawaz's take on the result.



LIb Dump.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain


Sure. But removing the right of free movement around that larger area doesn't help those not from that area. In fact, what we have seen with the toxic immigration debate is that, for those already here, things have got tougher for all of them, regardless of where they are from. 

_It's not fair that you punch me and don't punch them.

Oh, ok, I'll punch both of you. That better? 
_
The UK's recent dismal record in taking in refugees (despite being one of the countries whose foreign policy has helped to create many of those refugees) had nothing to do with free movement in the EU, and you can bet that the situation will either remain the same or get worse once the tories have removed free movement (if/when they manage it). Anti-EU immigration can't be separated from just a general anti-immigration position. And it's left us in a very sorry place right now.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sure. But removing the right of free movement around that larger area doesn't help those not from that area. In fact, what we have seen with the toxic immigration debate is that, for those already here, things have got tougher for all of them, regardless of where they are from.
> 
> _It's not fair that you punch me and don't punch them.
> 
> ...


Yeah I agree with all that, but labour - and beyond labour - could have taken a position that wasn't retreat to the above and also wasn't defending the deeply unfair and brutal immigration policy of the EU


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah I agree with all that, but labour - and beyond labour - could have taken a position that wasn't retreat to the above and also wasn't defending the deeply unfair and brutal immigration policy of the EU


Yes. that's dangerously close to 'radical remain'.  Pretty much my position through all this fwiw. 

Labour conceded the May argument that the brexit vote had to mean new immigration controls. imo, as I said above, that inevitably left them in a corner from which they had to promise to land more punches. I think it was a terrible decision.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes. that's dangerously close to 'radical remain'.  Pretty much my position through all this fwiw.
> 
> Labour conceded the May argument that the brexit vote had to mean new immigration controls. imo, as I said above, that inevitably left them in a corner from which they had to promise to land more punches. I think it was a terrible decision.



Coulda would shoulda of course but could have (should have imo) been a leave position


----------



## Azrael (Dec 18, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't think I quite agree with that. Norway +, in the form of 'Common Market II', came about as close as anything last year to winning the support of parliament. If Labour had advocated that from the start, it might have found some tough going initially, but May's deal would still have failed in just the way it did, and then Labour would have been left in a vastly improved position.
> 
> I say the above partly with the benefit of hindsight, but there was always a strong moral case for something akin to Norway + - 'leave the EU but stay in EFTA' reflects a referendum split nearly 50:50  with no detail of what any brexit might look like much more accurately than any other form of brexit.
> 
> ...


Couldn’t agree more about Labour’s failure to challenge anti-immigrant rhetoric, and they should certainly have advocated Norway from the off.

As for its odds of success, it was likely too late by early 2019 and the indicative votes: continuity Remain loathe Norway; Labour leavers won’t touch anything that doesn’t allow draconian immigration controls; and most Tories who could stomach the EEA were put off by the customs union bolt-on.

Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it back in some form: as you say, emigration controls aren’t well known, and several leavers have reacted with horror when they learn of them. A few thousand voters screaming about delays at airports and not being able to retire to Spain and the conversation changes fast.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Coulda would shoulda of course but could have (should have imo) been a leave position


Don't think so, Labour were always going to be facing a massive problem whichever position they took, they were appealing to 2 major groups of voters,  The poorer working class voters in solid Labour seats who are also pretty solid Leave and the youth vote who were attracted to the initial "Break the Mould, Let's try Something New" approach that Corbyn seemed to offer. This vote is equally solid Remain. 
Which is why  Labour came up with their hideous Sit on The Fence mashup that in the end appealed to no-one, it was a bad idea but in fairness I don't think there was any other option for them.
Labour's best hope was to get the conversation away from Brexit all together and onto other issues and that they largely failed to do.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Labour's best hope was to get the conversation away from Brexit all together and onto other issues and that they largely failed to do.


Yep. Totally this. It was the only hope I had that Labour would do well (by which I simply mean prevent an overall tory majority). But it didn't work. Clearly it all did boil down to brexit in the areas that mattered, and 'Get Brexit Done' won it. For all that all of us are saying that we would have liked to have seen, that might always have been the case - even if Labour had committed to a 'soft' brexit all along, given the anti-immigrant message of the tories. 

The most depressing aspect of that is that the tories were nakedly racist and xenophobic with the specific goal of winning over a significant number of Labour leavers, or at least getting them to vote Brexit Party or stay at home. Johnson turned himself into Farage. And it worked. That depresses the hell out of me.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2019)

Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.


He looks more like a lizard every day


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 18, 2019)

MickiQ said:


> Don't think so, Labour were always going to be facing a massive problem whichever position they took, they were appealing to 2 major groups of voters,  The poorer working class voters in solid Labour seats who are also pretty solid Leave and the youth vote who were attracted to the initial "Break the Mould, Let's try Something New" approach that Corbyn seemed to offer. This vote is equally solid Remain.
> Which is why  Labour came up with their hideous Sit on The Fence mashup that in the end appealed to no-one, it was a bad idea but in fairness I don't think there was any other option for them.
> Labour's best hope was to get the conversation away from Brexit all together and onto other issues and that they largely failed to do.



People aren't innately leave or remain, they take those positions for reasons. The 'youth vote' (not solid remain fwiw, plenty of younger activist types in labour who were leave) took that position because of the leave on offer.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> He looks more like his true self every day



FFY


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.


All Blair needed to do to prevent brexit happening was to campaign in favour of it. He's more toxic than corbyn


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> FFY


Yeh like his true self, like a lizard, two sides of the same debased coin


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 18, 2019)

That side parting is worrying


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> That side parting is worrying


And look at those dead eyes


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not a strategic point this, just about politics and fairness in general, but surely we/'the left' should want an overhaul of immigration rules - freedom of movement (unless you are homeless etc) within europe while enforcing hard borders around europe to deny desperate and vulnerable people sanctuary doesn't sound like something I would want to maintain



That's going to be tricky when the narrative ever since the days of Ed Miliband has been 'Labour needs to get more racist to win back the working class voters'.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Blair now looks exactly like the Steve Bell cartoon of himself. Which fits in nicely with his descent into delusional self-parody.








YES.


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> He looks more like a lizard every day


"Tony has risen from the grave".


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> "Tony has risen from the grave".


Quick, where's a stake


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's going to be tricky when the narrative ever since the days of Ed Miliband has been 'Labour needs to get more racist to win back the working class voters'.



Who’s narrative? 

This isn’t correct, both in that since Ed’s immigration mug printing spree it’s been off the menu for Labour and that this is not what most w class people want. I don’t, you don’t and most of the people you are referring to simply want someone who they believe is on their side. Hostility to others is the way the right shows that, but equally being positive about the UK, its people, it’s prospects and what they care about/need is what is required.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> "Tony has risen from the grave".


I was thinking that, I thought surely he’s going to get to a point of greyness and deterioration that the BBC policy will change and they won’t get him to weigh in every time.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 18, 2019)

One of those metropolitan elite remainer types calls LBC and sticks it to the leavers


----------



## kebabking (Dec 18, 2019)

If you're interested in the absolute gangfuck that was Labours' election campaign in a random constituency...

Wyre Forest is in the West Midlands, voted leave by about 60%, and is a swing constituency - it's been Labour, independent, and Tory. Firstly there was a squabble over the candidate: local bloke got chinned off, bloke from outside with no local links got dropped in, and the sum total of the Labour campaign in this swing constituency was - 3 tweets, a couple of Facebook posts, and, err... that's it.

Yup, that was fucking it.

A CLP chair was on the radio here and he was having a right honk off about the campaign - he was saying that the regional media Comms people set up not one single interview with any of the local candidates, and when the CLP's organised their own the party HQ ordered them cancelled.

And that ladies and gents, is how you tell people that you're not interested in them...


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> People aren't innately leave or remain, they take those positions for reasons. The 'youth vote' (not solid remain fwiw, plenty of younger activist types in labour who were leave) took that position because of the leave on offer.


Exactly, being a “middle class refugees welcome banner” sort myself i should have been “innately remain”. But this isn’t where I ended up.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 18, 2019)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Exactly, being a “middle class refugees welcome banner” sort myself i should have been “innately remain”. But this isn’t where I ended up.


Both in quotes cause both statements are pish


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 18, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> One of those metropolitan elite remainer types calls LBC and sticks it to the leavers



Emily Thornberry?


----------



## Humberto (Dec 19, 2019)

I think making Corbyn out to be the bad guy/fall guy is a real mistake. He came along with vision and solid ideas. In fact he was TOO nice. Arguably he brought the Labour party back from the brink of oblivion. Sounds hyperbolic though as I write it. The guy was besieged by his own party, for what? By those who forgot their duty, or don't care about anything but their career?

Remind me, how does a party whose own parliamentary members are constantly attacking and undermining the leadership and throwing digs in at every opportunity expect to win standing in front of a rabidly hostile press?

It's not Labour voters who need to take a look at themselves. I'm disappointed with the result like everyone else who knew it was the better deal.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 19, 2019)

I can agree with some of that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 19, 2019)

Humberto said:


> I think making Corbyn out to be the bad guy/fall guy is a real mistake. He came along with vision and solid ideas. In fact he was TOO nice. Arguably he brought the Labour party back from the brink of oblivion. Sounds hyperbolic though as I write it. The guy was besieged by his own party, for what? By those who forgot their duty, or don't care about anything but their career?
> 
> Remind me, how does a party whose own parliamentary members are constantly attacking and undermining the leadership and throwing digs in at every opportunity expect to win standing in front of a rabidly hostile press?
> 
> It's not Labour voters who need to take a look at themselves. I'm disappointed with the result like everyone else who knew it was the better deal.


I agree with the bringing the lp back from the brink bit. It was needed, and it's easy to forget how much it was needed. I would add though that doing that was kind of his job, his role, but in an ideal world perhaps he would not have stood as leader for this election. His good work was done in the first couple of years, and his successor could have been his legacy. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that this manifesto, or the heart of it, and it was a manifesto with heart, could have been his legacy.

Might still have lost though. 'Get Brexit Done', where that phrase was explicitly tied in with ending free movement, was wot won it. I'm not sure anything would have countered that, sadly. In that sense, I do think it was the voters who were wrong. Everyone voting tory is wrong! They always have been.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 19, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> There's no one factor to blame for Labours defeat.
> 
> Corbyn vs Johnson in 2017 would likely have been a decent win but the man's never been charismatic enough to win over the gruff builders, plumbers and delivery driver types who make up much of the modern working class. At the same time Labour has drifted away from supporting these people and mattering to them the last few decades, instead they've been sold the lie that immigration is to blame for all ills and Corbyn was never going to all out and support anti-immigration.w.



I was working with my deliver driver workmate yesterday.

He was having a go at Blair. Had heard him on the radio in the morning. Said he should be up for war crimes and just wanted to push the Labour party to the right again. Which he. disagreed with. Didnt have anything good to say about Blair's wife either.

Another one I know was hoping Corbyn would win.

Neither of them blame immigration for all ills.

I am in London.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 19, 2019)

I was chatting with a local Tory councillor in the pub and mentioned that, seen from space, borders make no sense whatsoever and that the greatest injustice on the planet at this time is how your life chances are heavily dictated by geography.

I’m not a radical “no borders” type in any simplistic sense, but in broad brush strokes it seems like a basic human problem that we need to deal with.

To him, even the concepts seemed enraging.  It’s a hard gap to bridge.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I was working with my deliver driver workmate yesterday.
> 
> He was having a go at Blair. Had heard him on the radio in the morning. Said he should be up for war crimes and just wanted to push the Labour party to the right again. Which he. disagreed with. Didnt have anything good to say about Blair's wife either.
> 
> ...



Always a problem when you deal with trying to stereotype, you end up talking bollocks and missing people out.

Sorry old bean.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Dec 19, 2019)

Laura Pidcock has put out a "Letter to the people I represented" (North West Durham constituency) which is worth a read

"Firstly, what was acutely obvious throughout my time as the MP, was that there was a hard core of people who were bitterly angry with me before I had even opened my mouth: angry at the political establishment; angry at the expenses scandal; angry at being left behind, angry that their life was not as good now as it was; angry that their communities had not been invested in and that there was no longer a buzz and a sense of community about the place.

At many doors, there was a mixture of fury and apathy at successive governments (and I very much include New Labour in that). The current Labour Party were blamed for much of the problems in our communities, despite being out of power for a decade and I was seen as part of the establishment."...

"On Jeremy. This bit is hard, because when I knocked on your doors in 2017, so many of you talked about what a good guy he seemed, that he was on the side of the people and that he was getting a very hard time from people inside the Labour Party and out. People who were less friendly to Labour spoke about how damaging a divided party is, about things like the IRA and the connections internationally that you didn’t understand or agree with.

By 2019, you seemed so much angrier about Jeremy Corbyn. I had a handful of angry people say “I would shoot him” or “take a gun to his head” whilst in the next breath calling him an extremist. But mostly people were not connecting with him for lots of different reasons. I know people on either side of the Brexit division wanted him to come down on the side of Remain or Leave. I don’t want to patronise anyone by saying that this was all the fault of the media. I know people make up their own minds. But I cannot and will not accept that the media had no part. So much of the coverage sought to demolish Jeremy from day one, not because of him as a person, but because of his politics."​She also talks a lot about her frustration at getting policies like employment rights into the media, instead getting asked constantly about Corbyn's popularity or political gossip, and about how unpopular the Labour Brexit policy was.


----------



## treelover (Dec 19, 2019)

Labour had a superlative disability manifesto, it got hardly any coverage, there were real issues with A/S and an element of the party, supporters, etc, but the coverage thery gave to noneties like Ian Austin, particuarly compared to Tory dissenters, was appalling, and unaceptable.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2019)




----------



## treelover (Dec 19, 2019)

> *Queen's speech: national living wage increase could be shelved if economy falters, government suggests – live news*
> 
> Queen's speech: national living wage increase could be shelved if economy falters, government suggests – live news



So it begins, one born every minute


----------



## treelover (Dec 19, 2019)

Time for a people's march?, would be a sign the wider left has learnt some lessons from the defeat.


----------



## treelover (Dec 19, 2019)




----------



## treelover (Dec 19, 2019)

Hey @*JakeBerry* what are you guys in the hunting pack going to do about this - as your constituents are on some of the lowest poverty wages in the UK?

Robert Schopen added,


  











*Jake Berry*Verified account @*JakeBerry*

Welcoming (some!) of the new #*BlueWall* of northern Conservative MPs to Parliament tonight Working together we’ll hunt like a pack to get a brilliant deal for…

	8:22 am - 19 Dec 2019


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 19, 2019)

Diverse bunch aren't they? Any of them _not_ called Simon?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 19, 2019)

Either way they're all cunts.


----------



## treelover (Dec 19, 2019)

So gutted that John Mc lost the plot, he had some amazing prepatory with economic plans, would have made a great chancellor, but then spread offers round like confetti.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 19, 2019)

treelover said:


> So gutted that John Mc lost the plot, he had some amazing prepatory with economic plans, would have made a great chancellor, but then spread offers round like confetti.


In 2017 some fairly radical policy (in context of westminster elections anyway) announcements caught a bit of a wave and got talked about, I think it was just a badly executed attempt to recreate that


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 19, 2019)

treelover said:


>



Should be tree pissing all over everything else.


----------



## AnandLeo (Dec 19, 2019)

After the general election, not just the labour party, but the whole country that including Conservative party are struggling to find what caused the Labour’s rout. Everyone knows that Jeremy Corbyn was a controversial leader to be the Prime Minister of UK when he was elected leader of the Labour party. However, at the 2017 general election he managed to market the Labour manifesto to the country successfully against the Theresa May’s government and improve the Labour’s position in the parliament. That was a stunning achievement for a controversial party leader. Since then Corbyn performed comfortably with much less controversy. No one including the media and the Conservative party expected Tory landslide victory, considering the Boris Johnson’s frenzied conduct until up to the election. He was agitated by his vulnerability of leading a minority government with a pathetically divided and penalised Conservative party.
During the election campaign Nigel Farage’s Brexit party gave fullest support for the Conservative party. The Labour party produced an unprecedented radically socialist manifesto which is somewhat surreal. Probably the Labour manifesto was incredible even to the Labour supporters. In my opinion, most of all, people who voted for Brexit are the Labour supporters in the north. Before the election, Boris Johnson managed to reach a Brexit deal with the approval of the parliament. The Labour Brexit supporters followed through the outcome of this Brexit deal, and gave an election result approving the Brexit deal. The controversial character of the Jeremy Corbyn also may have lurked to some extent. I reckon, the Brexit deal already agreed, the ultra-socialist Labour manifesto, Brexit party election manoeuvring in support of the Conservative party, and the unpopularity of Jeremy Corbyn as a Prime Minister, in that order are the factors that led to the downfall of the Labour party. I am suggesting the traditional Labour voters in the north voted for Brexit in the referendum – and they voted for Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal in the general election.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 19, 2019)

Brilliant reading of what radical socialism is there


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 19, 2019)

Zac Goldsmith loses seat but given life peerage so he can stay on as whatever ministerial role he won't do properly

These fucking _parasites_


----------



## kebabking (Dec 19, 2019)

AnandLeo said:


> After the general election, not just the labour party, but the whole country that including Conservative party are struggling to find what caused the Labour’s rout. Everyone knows that Jeremy Corbyn was a controversial leader to be the Prime Minister of UK when he was elected leader of the Labour party. However, at the 2017 general election he managed to market the Labour manifesto to the country successfully against the Theresa May’s government and improve the Labour’s position in the parliament. That was a stunning achievement for a controversial party leader. Since then Corbyn performed comfortably with much less controversy. No one including the media and the Conservative party expected Tory landslide victory, considering the Boris Johnson’s frenzied conduct until up to the election. He was agitated by his vulnerability of leading a minority government with a pathetically divided and penalised Conservative party.
> During the election campaign Nigel Farage’s Brexit party gave fullest support for the Conservative party. The Labour party produced an unprecedented radically socialist manifesto which is somewhat surreal. Probably the Labour manifesto was incredible even to the Labour supporters. In my opinion, most of all, people who voted for Brexit are the Labour supporters in the north. Before the election, Boris Johnson managed to reach a Brexit deal with the approval of the parliament. The Labour Brexit supporters followed through the outcome of this Brexit deal, and gave an election result approving the Brexit deal. The controversial character of the Jeremy Corbyn also may have lurked to some extent. I reckon, the Brexit deal already agreed, the ultra-socialist Labour manifesto, Brexit party election manoeuvring in support of the Conservative party, and the unpopularity of Jeremy Corbyn as a Prime Minister, in that order are the factors that led to the downfall of the Labour party. I am suggesting the traditional Labour voters in the north voted for Brexit in the referendum – and they voted for Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal in the general election.



Fantastic analysis. Your position as Urbans most incisive political commentator would have been assured if only exactly the same conclusion had not been reached a week ago by the entire English speaking world.

Any news from Lucknow?


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 19, 2019)

AnandLeo said:


> After the general election, not just the labour party, but the whole country that including Conservative party are struggling to find what caused the Labour’s rout. Everyone knows that Jeremy Corbyn was a controversial leader to be the Prime Minister of UK when he was elected leader of the Labour party. However, at the 2017 general election he managed to market the Labour manifesto to the country successfully against the Theresa May’s government and improve the Labour’s position in the parliament. That was a stunning achievement for a controversial party leader. Since then Corbyn performed comfortably with much less controversy. No one including the media and the Conservative party expected Tory landslide victory, considering the Boris Johnson’s frenzied conduct until up to the election. He was agitated by his vulnerability of leading a minority government with a pathetically divided and penalised Conservative party.
> During the election campaign Nigel Farage’s Brexit party gave fullest support for the Conservative party. The Labour party produced an unprecedented radically socialist manifesto which is somewhat surreal. Probably the Labour manifesto was incredible even to the Labour supporters. In my opinion, most of all, people who voted for Brexit are the Labour supporters in the north. Before the election, Boris Johnson managed to reach a Brexit deal with the approval of the parliament. The Labour Brexit supporters followed through the outcome of this Brexit deal, and gave an election result approving the Brexit deal. The controversial character of the Jeremy Corbyn also may have lurked to some extent. I reckon, the Brexit deal already agreed, the ultra-socialist Labour manifesto, Brexit party election manoeuvring in support of the Conservative party, and the unpopularity of Jeremy Corbyn as a Prime Minister, in that order are the factors that led to the downfall of the Labour party. I am suggesting the traditional Labour voters in the north voted for Brexit in the referendum – and they voted for Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal in the general election.



Any word on why you never see a dinosaur these days? I like to keep up with developments.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 19, 2019)

Well I enjoyed AnandLeo's post anyway


----------



## chilango (Dec 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Brilliant reading of what radical socialism is there


...and of "unprecedented" in all honesty.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 19, 2019)

I think the important thing is that the left, having been absolutely pounded in England, keeps itself fragmented and hostile.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well I enjoyed AnandLeo's post anyway


Oh, I enjoyed it immensely.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 19, 2019)

DexterTCN said:


> I think the important thing is that the left, having been absolutely pounded in England, keeps itself fragmented and hostile.



Didn't it get pounded in scotland too


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Didn't it get pounded in scotland too


Nope...stronger than ever up here.  Half of labour's promises last week were knicked from ones already in place up here.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 19, 2019)

They proper tartan pilled you didn't they


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Well I enjoyed AnandLeo's post anyway


moving on,


----------



## LDC (Dec 19, 2019)

I've got so many people on ignore half these threads make no sense any more.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 19, 2019)

Who said that???


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 19, 2019)

treelover said:


> So it begins, one born every minute



it begin it began when they removed workers fucking right from exit bill

they will eventually get around to workers rights 



snide horrible fuckers who know whats coming


----------



## prunus (Dec 19, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I've got so many people on ignore half these threads make no sense any more.



Doesn’t require anyone on ignore for that to be the case...


----------



## kenny g (Dec 19, 2019)

We need to bring back national service, arm the youth and develop a ten year plan. As well as having a female northern voice to lead us because so many people have shown their allegiance by voting for a male southern Etonian.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 19, 2019)

Ha, I see the Independent Group has disbanded. Which smacks more than a little of 'you can't fire me, I quit!' type petulence in the circumstances.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 19, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> They proper tartan pilled you didn't they



Here you go

_O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!_

Hope that's _tartan _enough for you, arsehole.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 19, 2019)

Twll din


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 19, 2019)

Pogue mahone


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 19, 2019)

Malaka


----------



## ska invita (Dec 21, 2019)

Two maps on the London vote
Distribution of ethnic groups in Greater London according to the 2011 census. THis map shows "White-British"
Ethnic groups in London - Wikipedia






London election map 2019


----------



## ska invita (Dec 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Two maps on the London vote
> Distribution of ethnic groups in Greater London according to the 2011 census. THis map shows "White-British"
> Ethnic groups in London - Wikipedia
> 
> ...



I grew up in several places but teenage years were spent in the Orpington ward, and now live in neighbouring Beckenham ward, after 20 years in Lewisham (south east corner of the map). Those maps are no surprise to me. Those Kent border seats are solid Tory seats with a solid working class tory vote component wihtin them. Farage lives in that Orpington ward btw.

Challening the culture of WC-Toryism in particular is something Ive thought about since being a teenager - having been on the sharp end of some of that growing up - cant say Im much close to an answer to it. I loved it when the rave scene came along as it really did move the compass on values somewhat, for a time at least. Really hard to imagine that changing again for the forseeable.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I've got so many people on ignore half these threads make no sense any more.


That's one of the reasons I don't bother using it. Also I have enough echo chambers in my life thanks to Facebook and Twitter.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 21, 2019)

Posting this from carrying on from the Inside Against and Beyond the LP thread as its a bit of a derail....


ska invita said:


> Familiar with everything covered there but the bit about anti-semitism was new to me - particularly the bit they lifted off Twitter and expanded on, about the interaction of claims of anti-semitism and islamaphobia/nativism
> 
> 
> > Luke Pagarani, put it on a perspicacious and distressing Twitter thread:
> > The real charge against Corbyn is that he fundamentally believes that British/white lives are of equal value with the lives of others. Our opponents wouldn’t put it so bluntly but that is what it has always been about. That prioritisation of British lives must always be assumed. … It is impossible to defend Corbyn against this unspoken charge because it is clearly true. … I think this is also how the antisemitism scandal had such a big effect on people who don’t really care about antisemitism itself. Leaving aside all the people who do care about antisemitism for its own sake for a lot of people *Corbyn’s association with antisemitism seems to represent his association with Islam, where Islam in turn comes to stand for the undifferentiated mass of humanity making a claim for equal eminence.*


Right on cue Luke has a piece here published today here:
Labour failed to engage older voters – and after 100 hours canvassing, I know why | Luke Pagarani

interesting bits, including
"The good news is that people are not crying out for more racism or war. Immigration itself didn’t come up once in all my conversations, and indeed polls show declining hostility to it. Corbyn’s opposition to military adventurism is popular, although his pacifist principles are not.

Pandering to so-called legitimate concerns will fail, as it always does for Labour, but so will labelling large chunks of the electorate racist. Despite ethical injunctions to “call out” prejudice, there are no electoral prizes to be won from naming racism as such, except in the most egregious cases. We need to reduce the salience of nativist and nationalist identity. Let’s start by abstaining from the self-indulgence of “gammon” jokes and other temptations to sharpen cultural and intergenerational divides."


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Two maps on the London vote
> Distribution of ethnic groups in Greater London according to the 2011 census. THis map shows "White-British"
> Ethnic groups in London - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


I'd be more interested to see the 2021 census ethnicity map, as 2011 is now a long time ago. I'd also like to see a map of the size of majorities, as fptp rather a blunt instrument and for all I know half the majorities could be easily overturned


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 21, 2019)

Somebody has made a complaint against Jess Phillips.

MP faces 'cheating' complaint for handing out foodbank vouchers on polling day


----------



## rekil (Dec 23, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> What kind of man spends half his life posting reams and reams of text nobody will read on a website where everyone hates him and thinks he's a thick cunt?
> 
> A fucking weirdo. Probably abuses animals when he's not boring the good people of urban.


Is he this twat?


----------



## Libertad (Dec 23, 2019)

In passing I miss cesare.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2019)

copliker said:


> Is he this twat?


Derf lived in Indonesia or somewhere didn't he? I know that was ten years ago and people move but from tropical paradise to Amazon delivery driver really?


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 23, 2019)

maomao said:


> Derf lived in Indonesia or somewhere didn't he? I know that was ten years ago and people move but from tropical paradise to Amazon delivery driver really?


I think he means Trooomp, not Marty1.


----------



## rekil (Dec 23, 2019)

fishfinger said:


> I think he means Trooomp, not Marty1.


Yeah. Tromp signed off as derf. Both nuisance cunts just to be clear.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2019)

copliker said:


> Yeah. Tromp signed off as derf. Both nuisance cunts just to be clear.


Oh that's possible. Funny posting hours and total arsehole. Definitely a pattern.

ETA: Have now seen his thread.


----------



## treelover (Dec 23, 2019)

Lots of the language, memes, bile against Corbyn, Abbot, seems to replicate what is posted on Guido Fawkes/Order Order, sometimes word for word.How influential are they, pages, hits, etc.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 23, 2019)

Cheeky motherfuckers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2019)

ska invita said:


> We need to reduce the salience of nativist and nationalist identity. Let’s start by abstaining from the self-indulgence of “gammon” jokes and other temptations to sharpen cultural and intergenerational divides."


I agree with this last sentence, but it's going to take more than stopping gammon jokes to reduce the salience of nativist and nationalist identity - after all, the gammon stuff was a reaction to it, rather than a cause of it. It seems very easy to say 'reduce the salience of nativist and nationalist identity', but where we are right now, it seems anything but an easy thing to achieve. 

Sadly, I think it's going to take things going tits up post-brexit, bringing with it increased inequality and increased division, for space for other things to open up. At the moment, it's full steam ahead for nativist and nationalist identity.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I've got so many people on ignore half these threads make no sense any more.



I haven’t got anyone on ignore, and half still don’t make any sense


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 23, 2019)




----------



## emanymton (Dec 23, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Cheeky motherfuckers.
> 
> View attachment 193869


By criminalising it and generally creating an even more inhospitable environment for the homeless I imagine.


----------



## treelover (Dec 23, 2019)

Deadline to make trains accessible for disabled ripped up in Boris Johnson's first 'broken promise' since election win

Er, not his first, but telling.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2019)

Interesting chart


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 23, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting chart



Very interesting, especially given that for the Novara types everyone who has a job is ‘literally’ working class. Like when they profess to be ‘literally’ communists the attention to political detail is a touch off, here the sociological detail is somewhat lacking..


----------



## friedaweed (Dec 23, 2019)

Don Troooomp said:


> Because the tories were a fucking mess. Labour only ever do well when the tories fuck up, not because they're any good.
> If that changes, we see Labour governments that stay in power.
> On a personal note, my mum is in long term care and absolutely dependent on good NHS services, but Labour losing all the time means tories, and tories fuck up the NHS.


Shit flounce is shit flounce


----------



## Argonia (Dec 24, 2019)

What's the difference between unemployed and not working in that chart?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 24, 2019)

Argonia said:


> What's the difference between unemployed and not working in that chart?



don't know exactly how they did it, but some things use "unemployed" and "economically inactive" as different things

"not working" in this context could include some or all of full time carers (in the sense of caring for family member, not in the sense of paid care worker) / housewives and househusbands / people who are sick or disabled and unable to work


----------



## LDC (Dec 24, 2019)

Electoral reform... take the vote off over-65s? 

e2a: ...tongue firmly in cheek...


----------



## Lurdan (Dec 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Electoral reform... take the vote off over-65s?


As part of the demographic in question I can't say I'd miss it myself. I certainly won't be voting for any of these fuckers.

Nonetheless I think I'd prefer to stick to Plan A. Hang the last capitalist with the guts of the last politician. Then start the deep cull of all their upper, middle and lower middle class lickspittles and enablers.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 25, 2019)

treelover said:


> one of the other issues as i have been reading is for some time, some of the red wall, is not really that constituency any more, Newcastle Under Lyme for example, is now full of retirees, commuters, a few ex mining towns are like that.





ska invita said:


> interesting that, would be (fairly) curious to see per seat demographics including on the vote itself. Of course its true that grassroots politics have to be done by local people - you cant/wouldn't want to parachute/astroturf - which leads to the question, who lives in place X exactly to engage in this? Age as well as wealth is an issue too
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good piece in Freedom on this change in rural/small town demographics



The left’s generation crisis: How can we grow without seeds?


----------



## LDC (Dec 25, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Good piece in Freedom on this change in rural/small town demographics
> 
> 
> 
> The left’s generation crisis: How can we grow without seeds?



Yeah, posted in the thread about organising post/in/against/whatever with the Labour party.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 26, 2019)

Love this pre-election satisfaction chart. Corbyn's popularity compared with other elections. No one can say Corbyn wasn't a problem but Boris wasn't great either.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 26, 2019)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Love this pre-election satisfaction chart. Corbyn's popularity compared with other elections. No one can say Corbyn wasn't a problem but Boris wasn't great either.View attachment 194219


Obviously true corbyn was a problem but that drop from '17 (when more popular than miliband, brown, and tail end 'bush and' blair) to '19 - what changed there then. Rhetorical btw.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 26, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Obviously true corbyn was a problem but that drop from '17 (when more popular than miliband, brown, and tail end 'bush and' blair) to '19 - what changed there then. Rhetorical btw.



They took him seriously so the media pile-on went into overdrive.

shame the Labour Party couldn’t have played up stuff like his virtuousness on expenses (versus Johnson who once tried to put his £30 cenotaph wreath on expenses) but the opposition doesn’t get to choose the battlegrounds.


----------



## tommers (Dec 26, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Obviously true corbyn was a problem but that drop from '17 (when more popular than miliband, brown, and tail end 'bush and' blair) to '19 - what changed there then. Rhetorical btw.


Anti semitism.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 26, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> They took him seriously so the media pile-on went into overdrive.
> 
> shame the Labour Party couldn’t have played up stuff like his virtuousness on expenses (versus Johnson who once tried to put his £30 cenotaph wreath on expenses) but the opposition doesn’t get to choose the battlegrounds.



I think tories learnt lessons from 17 and ran a more vicious and effective media/social media campaign but it's not like 17 was benign, the pile on was in overdrive then too



tommers said:


> Anti semitism.



Again how is this different to 17, if anything not as big an issue this time around (17 was just after mural, which was indefensible)

I mean come on, the only substantial difference between 17 and 19 was labour's position on brexit. The tory vote remained where it was, labour's fell away, seat losses in england and wales pretty much all leave seats


----------



## gosub (Dec 26, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> They took him seriously so the media pile-on went into overdrive.
> 
> shame the Labour Party couldn’t have played up stuff like his virtuousness on expenses (versus Johnson who once tried to put his £30 cenotaph wreath on expenses) but the opposition doesn’t get to choose the battlegrounds.



It can do, they didn't though.  They are along way from Blair's frighteningly formidable operation - the 'grid' in the last election was so closely guarded it defeated the purpose of having one and when they had a candidate saying things weren't going well they added to a list of where to target resources without ever re-prioritising by taking other ones off .... Milliband will have quite a lot for his report. Though I'll add one that won't probably make it.....

Over the last 3 years I've watched remainers do their best Duke Brothers from Trading Places impression "turn the machines back on!"  as they refused to accept the result and attempt to continue fighting the referendum with a strategy of trying to win hearts and minds by hurrling abuse. Anyway endured last two months of facebook filling up with political shares, but the election ended 2 weeks ago... I had a widely shared "In his first four days as Prime Monster of the United Kingdom Boris Johnson has:" on Christmas Eve, some twat thinking Xmas Eve night down the pub would be a good time to bring up Brexit and a fucking Councillor putting out political attack tweets at 3am Xmas morning.  Just fuck off.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2019)

.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2019)

A tory nativity: no room in the College.
FFS


----------



## Idris2002 (Dec 27, 2019)

What do we make of the claims of fraud by postal vote emerging on Twitter? A load of bollocks - probably.

It will be interesting to see if this one has legs, as an urban legend if nothing else.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 27, 2019)

Funny you should bring that up. I was just reading this:

Questions Beginning to Be Raised About Voting Irregularities at British General Election | Red Revolution Media

No idea as to the truth of it though, not come across the website before either.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 27, 2019)

Definitely the Jews


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> What do we make of the claims of fraud by postal vote emerging on Twitter? A load of bollocks - probably.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if this one has legs, as an urban legend if nothing else.


Very reminiscent of the last time this was brought up after the EU ref...turns out that the claims of 1.1m PVs going astray was..er...basically made up of those who had decided not to vote, missed the deadline or forgot to put their mark on the paper.
Grade A bolllux.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Electoral reform... take the vote off over-65s?
> e2a: ...tongue firmly in cheek...


A little thought about pensioners, material conditions aside:

-they are proportionally far more reliant on traditional media than younger people + more likely to be duped by false information

-and also: was talking to someone recently with Ukrainian heritage, and she made what may be a good point (hard to know if its true or not) that for this generation of pensioners - if aged 75 now would've been 30 in 1975 - they may perhaps be more likely to have both negative attitudes towards (20th Century) Communism and also with a socialist Labour Party more broadly.

Connotations might slip towards authoritarianism, the winter of discontent, and the usual reds under the bed / cold war stuff. The Corbyn was a spy/Russian lacky slurs play well to that prejudice. Possibly much more baggage there than for younger voters


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2019)

ska invita said:


> A little thought about pensioners, material conditions aside:
> 
> -they are proportionally far more reliant on traditional media than younger people + more likely to be duped by false information
> 
> ...


Don't buy the second bit. It's not so long ago that labour was unquestioningly the socialist party. If anything older people should think this less odd rather than more.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't buy the second bit. It's not so long ago that labour was unquestioningly the socialist party. If anything older people should think this less odd rather than more.


tbh, I think the second point is potentially quite a credible affective trigger for the 70+ cohort.
It's not far fetched to believe that many of those sensing that things were better before the UK joined the EEC, would also well remember that _the communists _were presented as the main threat to that perception of security.

Never mind that it was the very existence of such system competition that drew the concessions from capital characterising the Les Trente Glorieuses, for many in that cohort anything presented as _commie (_like IRA loving Corbyn who'll take your house away) reminds them of all that was presented as wrong back then.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2019)

Was fear of The Reds really ever that strong here, other than among a small cohort of right-wingers? There was never any real purge of 'communists' here in the UK. In fact those purged in the US came here to escape the red menace hysteria. Fear of nuclear war, sure, but not actual fear of communist takeover from within. The 80+ cohort will remember just about a time when Britain reacted to winning WW2 by electing a socialist government that did very socialist things. They may remember that 'commies' fought the Nazis.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Was fear of The Reds really ever that strong here, other than among a small cohort of right-wingers? There was never any real purge of 'communists' here in the UK. In fact those purged in the US came here to escape the red menace hysteria. Fear of nuclear war, sure, but not actual fear of communist takeover from within. The 80+ cohort will remember just about a time when Britain reacted to winning WW2 by electing a socialist government that did very socialist things. They may remember that 'commies' fought the Nazis.


Fair points but I'm thinking that for some in that cohort we're dealing more with the affective domain than the results of any substantial historical analysis.

As some may feel that _things were better _before the EEC meddled in our affairs, so they may harbour a long constructed belief that _communism _(and anything that they were/are told smacked of it) was/is a also a threat to former/potential better times for our sceptred isle.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Fair points but I'm thinking that for some in that cohort we're dealing more with the affective domaine than the results of any substantial historical analysis.
> 
> As some may feel that _things were better _before the EEC meddled in our affairs, so they may harbour a long constructed belief that _communism _(and anything that they were/are told smacked of it) was/is a also a threat to former/potential better times for our sceptred isle.


Funnily enough I had a Xmas phone call from an old mate of mine who managed to slag off Corbyn as a Marxist cunt but then said he would have been better off if Labour had won. His main thing was that he agreed with most of Labours economic stuff ( except the broad band promise) but was against Communism . I’ve had similar conversations with Portuguese friends who vote Left Block but are aghast when I say I quite like the Portuguese Communist Party . Perhaps there’s a thing about Communism with all the baggage of Russia etc being seen as an outside threat but basic economic equality policies seen as a step forward ?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 27, 2019)

Well, whoever gets into power, the outcome is likely to be much the same. If Labour had won the election international capitalism would have had no tolerance for any 'socialist' programmes and Corbyn and co would have been forced to drop them and implement harsh austerity, probably with a deal with the IMF.


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 27, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well, whoever gets into power, the outcome is likely to be much the same. If Labour had won the election international capitalism would have had no tolerance for any 'socialist' programmes and Corbyn and co would have been forced to drop them and implement harsh austerity, probably with a deal with the IMF.


Hmm, the bot seems to have a problem with either English tenses or the calendar.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 27, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Hmm, the bot seems to have a problem with either English tenses or the calendar.


Good one mate. You make me laugh hard!


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 27, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Good one mate. You make me laugh hard!


The true vernacular!


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 27, 2019)

How am I a bot oh detective bot expert?


----------



## Supine (Dec 27, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well, whoever gets into power, the outcome is likely to be much the same. If Labour had won the election international capitalism would have had no tolerance for any 'socialist' programmes and Corbyn and co would have been forced to drop them and implement harsh austerity, probably with a deal with the IMF.



not sure you know how international politics works


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 27, 2019)

Supine said:


> not sure you know how international politics works


not sure you do


----------



## two sheds (Dec 27, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Hmm, the bot seems to have a problem with either English tenses or the calendar.



Oooo dunno - seems to have the past unreal conditional ok (I think, I just looked it up  ).


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 27, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Good one mate. You make me laugh hard!


I shouldn't mock you, Count Cuckula. English isn't your first language, is it, but you're almost perfect. Please tell us where you're from.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 27, 2019)

It's happened before, in the 1970s after Labour were elected in 1974.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 27, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> I shouldn't mock you, Count Cuckula. English isn't your first language, is it, but you're almost perfect. Please tell us where you're from.


England


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 27, 2019)

You come across as very paranoid bluescreen, comically so.


----------



## bluescreen (Dec 27, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> You come across as very paranoid bluescreen, comically so.


That's me! Comical! Got it in one! Genius! Do you have a recipe for success?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2019)




----------



## Humberto (Dec 28, 2019)

We lost a round. How many times in the last 40 years has the left come out fighting? Now I know people from all sides will suspect I'm deluded, but hear me out if you will.

What we don't want is to turn on each other. People make mistakes, sure. I think we learned from this election that the party of the haves, the rich few, control almost everything. Why should I surrender my principles? Because we lost? There is a nation of people here who aren't scared about communists taking their home ownership and corporate pensions because none of the rest of us will: a- get to retire, b- own a home, c- get to pawn off everyone else for their own stupidity.

People think the World War 2 generation were good, brave, important. They weren't. They were guilty of the same monstrosities that they fought against. Plus many of us knew them.

I believe this and the last are wicked generations. The next? Starved by the last.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well, whoever gets into power, the outcome is likely to be much the same. If Labour had won the election international capitalism would have had no tolerance for any 'socialist' programmes and Corbyn and co would have been forced to drop them and implement harsh austerity, probably with a deal with the IMF.


Cunt detector is going fucking wild with this one.

Why are you twats so obsessed with niche submissive sexual tendencies most of us have never heard of? It's pretty fucking weird, makes me think they probably wear their mother's wedding dress to masturbate while slowly rocking back and forth and crying.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

I think people have misjudged this count cuckula. Ok his name has cuck in but nothing he is saying suggests far right, and he's probably right on the specifics of his IMF post and definitely right in the general thrust that a labour govt would have been a crushing disappointment in terms of delivering something vaguely socialist. By the by, I loved count duckula when I was a kid.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> I think people have misjudged this count cuckula. Ok his name has cuck in but nothing he is saying suggests far right, and he's probably right on the specifics of his IMF post and definitely right in the general thrust that a labour govt would have been a crushing disappointment in terms of delivering something vaguely socialist. By the by, I loved count duckula when I was a kid.


I also loved count ducular when I was a kid but I've never felt the need to corrupt the name to Cuckula and use it as a handle on urban. Maybe I'm the weird one?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> I also loved count ducular when I was a kid but I've never felt the need to corrupt the name to Cuckula and use it as a handle on urban. Maybe I'm the weird one?


Clearly it's a really shit username, there can be no argument, an embarrassment of a handle


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> ...wear their mother's wedding dress to masturbate while slowly rocking back and forth and crying.



So that’s the process you employ to conjure up your offerings here Spiney - great projecting


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> So that’s the process you employ to conjure up your offerings here Spiney - great projecting


That's what your mum said.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Clearly it's a really shit username, there can be no argument, an embarrassment of a handle


I disagree, it's common humour and you'd have to be living in a cave or a monastary or something for the past 3-4 years to be unaware of such humour.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I disagree, it's common humour and you'd have to be living in a cave or a monastary or something for the past 3-4 years to be unaware of such humour.


Ok but it led to loads of people assuming you were one of those nazi dog people


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ok but it led to loads of people assuming you were one of those nazi dog people


thats not my fault or my problem mate


----------



## kebabking (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I disagree, it's common humour and you'd have to be living in a cave or a monastary or something for the past 3-4 years to be unaware of such humour.



Common amongst wierdos perhaps....

Count Duckula was, and is, teh shiz. My kids think it's brilliant.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Common amongst wierdos perhaps....
> 
> Count Duckula was, and is, teh shiz. My kids think it's brilliant.


Your kids have good taste


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> thats not my fault or my problem mate


Not mine either tbf, you crack on


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Jee, you guys are so overly sensitive.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 28, 2019)

Superted > count duckula


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 28, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Clearly it's a really shit username, there can be no argument, an embarrassment of a handle



Come now, there must be all sorts of valid reasons to name yourself after a racist trope beloved of MAGA twats, incel twats and MRA twats alike.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Come now, there must be all sorts of valid reasons to name yourself after a racist trope beloved of MAGA twats, incel twats and MRA twats alike.


Yeah but I'm not calling anyone a cuck but myself so theres a big difference in the way the word is being used. Not very observant are you!


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

It's like when gay people call themselves queer. Who wudda thunk eh?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

It's really not.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Yeah but I'm not calling anyone a cuck but myself so theres a big difference in the way the word is being used. Not very observant are you!



And...ignore.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

It's similar and for quite a while left wing people have been subverting the word (including calling right wing people cucks or stating that they have been cucked). I'm genuinely surprised that you guys live such sheltered lives that you are totally clueless about it. The word snowflake is also used by people on the left these days.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Come now, there must be all sorts of valid reasons to name yourself after a racist trope beloved of MAGA twats, incel twats and MRA twats alike.



Yeah, even Anna Soubry got involved with that trope - CUK (ChangeUK)


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Fucking hell where have you guys been these last four years? And apparently you do have access to the internet!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's similar and for quite a while left wing people have been subverting the word (including calling right wing people cucks or stating that they have been cucked). I'm genuinely surprised that you guys live such sheltered lives that you are totally clueless about it. The word snowflake is also used by people on the left these days.


How's the fitting in at this new forum going for you? 

What you've done is like wandering in to a party where nobody knows you wearing an 'ironic' tee shirt people are suspicious of, put your feet on the table and started calling people stupid.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Fucking hell where have you guys been these last four years? And apparently you do have access to the internet!



This is the politics board on Urban.

It's the demographics (and about as many new members) of your basic library chess club.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


> How's the fitting in at this new forum going for you?
> 
> What you've done is like wandering in to a party where nobody knows you wearing an 'ironic' tee shirt people are suspicious of, put your feet on the table and started calling people stupid.



Yea, reminds me of Royston Vasey.

Get me a can I can't.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Yeah it's so awful calling MYSELF a cuck, I'm such a dastardly fiend!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


> How's the fitting in at this new forum going for you?
> 
> What you've done is like wandering in to a party where nobody knows you wearing an 'ironic' tee shirt people are suspicious of, put your feet on the table and started calling people stupid.



If he's new I'll eat several hats.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

This thread has certainly taken a diversion.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> This thread has certainly taken a diversion.



It's urban, and you are learning.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

FFS it's just a silly name, it's not meant to be taken very seriously. Get over it guys.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> thats not my fault or my problem mate


57 posts justifying the username later


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Yea, reminds me of Royston Vasey.
> 
> Get me a can I can't.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


>







Gotta laugh at ourselves, matey!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Gotta laugh at ourselves, matey!



 WE DIDN'T BURN HIM


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


> WE DIDN'T BURN HIM


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I disagree, it's common humour and you'd have to be living in a cave or a monastary or something for the past 3-4 years to be unaware of such humour.


Where I come from humour is supposed to be funny, maybe that's changed, everything else is shitter than it used to be so why not jokes too?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Jee, you guys are so overly sensitive.


Like a snowflake maybe?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Fascists revealing their true colours. As if those were'nt obvious enough.


Britain First says 5,000 of its members have joined Tories


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

How dare I?! Not only naming myself a cuck, but also using a clearly fascist avatar Lol!


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> How dare I?! Not only naming myself a cuck, but also using a clearly fascist avatar Lol!


They spelt cunt wrong on there


----------



## moochedit (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Fascists revealing their true colours. As if those were'nt obvious enough.
> 
> 
> Britain First says 5,000 of its members have joined Tories



As if they have 5000 members


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

moochedit said:


> As if they have 5000 members


They have just over 7000


----------



## moochedit (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> They have just over 7000



Is that card carrying members paying subs or facebook likes?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Where I come from humour is supposed to be funny, maybe that's changed, everything else is shitter than it used to be so why not jokes too?


It's funny to plenty of people, just not you. Humour is subjective.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

I remember when the swp had about 8000 members or something. That was bullshit too.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

moochedit said:


> Is that card carrying members paying subs or facebook likes?


If you read the article it states that they have 7,500 'signed up' members.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's funny to plenty of people, just not you. Humour is subjective.


Some things are objectively funny, like a dog with its head out of a car window and it's tongue dropping out of its mouth. Some things are objectively not funny, like premature death and your username.

The subjective shit is just around the grey edges.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Some things are objectively funny, like a dog with its head out of a car window and it's tongue dropping out of its mouth. Some things are objectively not funny, like premature death and your username.
> 
> The subjective shit is just around the grey edges.


I'm just gonna ignore you. I don't care about your irrelevent opinion.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

'Tommy Robinson' has also stated that he is now a paid up member of the Conservatives, but I don't know if thats actually the case, it hasn't been officially announced by the party and they've stated that Goldings' membership has not actually gone through yet.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I'm just gonna ignore you. I don't care about your irrelevent opinion.


You'll never know how much that hurts my feelings


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Supine said:


> not sure you know how international politics works


This video explains in detail why voting Labour, even a left wing Labour government, is a complete waste of time:


----------



## kebabking (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> .... However this clearly shows that they want to join and share the objectives of the governing party.



No, it clearly shows that they understand how effective UKIP were in changing Tory party policy, and then leader, by ditching UKIP and joining the Tories.

You _literally _have the wrong end of the stick.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> This video explains in detail why voting Labour, even a left wing Labour government, is a complete waste of time:



Great more fucking YouTube videos.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Great more fucking YouTube videos.


Innit

Especially fun is posting a video with what I assume is an anarchist argument on a website chocka with articulate, intelligent and long standing left wingers, anarchists, socialists and communists

How this site survived without Marty, Dom and whoever this new bugle is I cannot fathom


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 28, 2019)

kebabking said:


> No, it clearly shows that they understand how effective UKIP were in changing Tory party policy, and then leader, by ditching UKIP and joining the Tories.
> 
> You _literally _have the wrong end of the stick.


It also shows that the far right have nowhere to go  tbh aside from publicity stunts like this .  Entryism only works if you can split or haemorrhage the host organisation and the Tories will just expel them .


----------



## kenny g (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> This video explains in detail why voting Labour, even a left wing Labour government, is a complete waste of time:




Have you heard of the SPGB? www.worldsocialism.org ? Socialist Party of Great Britain – Britain's oldest socialist party?


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Innit
> 
> Especially fun is posting a video with *what I assume* is an anarchist argument on a website chocka with articulate, intelligent and long standing left wingers, anarchists, socialists and communists
> 
> How this site survived without Marty, Dom and whoever this new bugle is I cannot fathom


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


>


Yes?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

Tbf the red and black flags are a bit of a giveaway. I actually listened to about four minutes, I had no idea Kurtan from This Country was an insurrectionist


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

I know it's an anarchist video 
Just had a phrase in my head about grandmothers and eggs


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Have you heard of the SPGB? www.worldsocialism.org ? Socialist Party of Great Britain – Britain's oldest socialist party?


I have indeed, infact I am a socialist standard subscriber.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Great more fucking YouTube videos.


I fucking love youtube. Youtube is great!


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

I have to say it's rather hilarious how I've managed to constantly get on the wrong side of you guys. It's comedy gold.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

It's really made me laugh. Alot. So thankyou guys!


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> This video explains in detail why voting Labour, even a left wing Labour government, is a complete waste of time:




Is that your YouTube channel?

I must confess I’ve only managed about 7mins of that video so far and quite interesting but I’m not sure I can manage the full near 30mins.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I have to say it's rather hilarious how I've managed to constantly piss you guys off. It's comedy gold.


You don't _have_ to say it. You could just not say it and go piss up a rope.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Is that your YouTube channel?
> 
> I must confess I’ve only managed about 7mins of that video so far and quite interesting but I’m not sure I can manage the full near 30mins.


Lol it's not mine no


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Everything I post seems to get on people's wick, it's weird, but fuckin funny.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2019)

I was soooooooooo angry last night I hardly slept


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

two sheds said:


> I was soooooooooo angry last night I hardly slept


Why were you so angry?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Everything I post seems to get on people's wick, it's weird, but fuckin funny.


I'm pretty sure your posts aren't having the apoplectic effect you imagine. We're not short of irritating twats here; some in fact are very well-loved.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Why were you so angry?



You  coming in here and ..... just posting without permission


----------



## kenny g (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I have indeed, infact I am a socialist standard subscriber.



Why aren't you a member then?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

You to chill out mate


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Why aren't you a member then?


Because I'm an anarchist-communist


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Because I'm an anarchist-communist



Extinction Rebellion?


----------



## kenny g (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Because I'm an anarchist-communist



Do you object to all parliamentary elections?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Extinction Rebellion?


Nah not them


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Do you object to all parliamentary elections?


Yes


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Is that your YouTube channel?
> 
> I must confess I’ve only managed about 7mins of that video so far and quite interesting



Kiss of death


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Nah not them



Too middle class?


----------



## xenon (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Everything I post seems to get on people's wick, it's weird, but fuckin funny.



People (some) think you're either:
A. A banned returner, who will likely shortly reveal why they were banned in the first place.
B. A drive by troll.

Personly I don't care either A, B or other. You haven't acted like an arsehole yet. Which is a welcome of sorts I spose.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> Yes



Why?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Extinction Rebellion?


bunch of upper middle class twats on the whole, and I'm no pacifist either.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

xenon said:


> People (some) think you're either:
> A. A banned returner, who will likely shortly reveal why they were banned in the first place.
> B. A drive by troll.
> 
> Personly I don't care either A, B or other. You haven't acted like an arsehole yet. Which is a welcome of sorts I spose.


It's neither


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Why?


voting doesn't change anything. I'm ok with the likes of class war standing but they are not expecting to get elected. I like to stay true to anarchist beliefs and do my bit, not voting or campaigning for any party.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula - may seem like a strange question but, have you ever bought anything off Amazon?


----------



## kenny g (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> bunch of upper middle class twats on the whole, and I'm no pacifist either.


Are you working class?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

I am a member of an org


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Count Cuckula - may seem like a strange question but, have you ever bought anything off Amazon?


No. Why do you ask?


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> No. Why do you ask?



Just checking as some regard them as an evil that should not be supported (not without merit).


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Just checking as some regard them as an evil that should not be supported (not without merit).


They are an evil. They treat their workers like shit and are anti-union.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> They are an evil. They treat their workers like shit and are anti-union.



You're absolutely correct


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2019)

I'm a member , naturally, of an anarchist-communist org.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 28, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I'm a member , naturally, of an anarchist-communist org.



What are your groups objectives?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> What are your groups objectives?


To crush their enemies; to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> What are your groups objectives?


Anarchist-communism


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 28, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Anarchist-communism


Anna kissed cuckoldism 

I'm also a member of an org. The allotment society 

Our aims are communism and if we can't have that we'll settle for cheap fertiliser


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

SpineyNorman said:


> Anna kissed cuckoldism
> 
> I'm also a member of an org. The allotment society
> 
> Our aims are communism and if we can't have that we'll settle for cheap fertiliser


There will be plenty of cheap fertiliser comrade


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 28, 2019)

I wouldn't  bother responding to Marty1 because he really is a right wing troll cunt. This thread has all gone a bit weird as it seems Count Cuckula has wound people up because of their name on here rather than their actual comments. Urban though, innit


----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2019)

Too many cucks spoil the broth


----------



## Dom Traynor (Dec 29, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> I wouldn't  bother responding to Marty1 because he really is a right wing troll cunt.





You anarchists are mental

Edited to add: oh right Marty1 not Marty21 ffs 

Carry on you anarchists are fine


----------



## moochedit (Dec 29, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> If you read the article it states that they have 7,500 'signed up' members.



I think the Guardian needs to do some fact checking before they quote BF's press releases  Seriously, i doubt they have 70 members never mind 7000.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2019)

moochedit said:


> I think the Guardian needs to do some fact checking before they quote BF's press releases  Seriously, i doubt they have 70 members never mind 7000.


Yeh this is one for the guardian shit thread


----------



## LDC (Dec 29, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> I am a member of an org



Is it your sixth form anarchist graffiti club? If not which one?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> There will be plenty of cheap fertiliser comrade


And penguin feed


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 29, 2019)

moochedit said:


> I think the Guardian needs to do some fact checking before they quote BF's press releases  Seriously, i doubt they have 70 members never mind 7000.


Depends on their definition of 'member' as they might be including anyone who's ever 'liked' their shit on t'internet.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 30, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> How am I a bot oh detective bot expert?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 30, 2019)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's funny to plenty of people, just not you. Humour is subjective.


It’s just that it’s funny to the sort of people that wind up being mates with people like Weev.



Serge Forward said:


> I wouldn't  bother responding to Marty1 because he really is a right wing troll cunt. This thread has all gone a bit weird as it seems Count Cuckula has wound people up because of their name on here rather than their actual comments. Urban though, innit


But they called it! See CD’s latest output. How predictable these edgelords* are eh. 


*unlike the rest of the chess club I know all the latest internet terminology


----------



## kenny g (Jan 1, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it your sixth form anarchist graffiti club? If not which one?



If so it would show a probable 100% rise in effective @ action in the UK.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 15, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> E only includes pensioners reliant solely on state pension - if they have workplace/private pension provision as well they are categorised on previous occupation - so the DE breakdown is very depressing.
> 
> C2 isn't just trades tbf and overall income levels do correspond broadly with social grades


Going back to this topic for a second, this sounds about right for trades wages - basically getting on for 50k ,and more if your own business id expect. And this is classed as C2 right? 

A plumbers salary after building a reputation is around *£46-48,675+*. Plumbers can be some of the most well-paid trade professions along with electricians, especially considering the extensive skills and the stomach for the role
The average electricians salary is around *£47,265* especially once you’re gained solid experience in tackling the most common electrical faults
A typical roofers salary in the UK is around *£42,303*, and even more, if you work with heat
A bricklayers salary can surpass the average *£42,034* for an experienced and savvy individual
Carpenters and joiners also take home a meaty *£41,413*


----------



## maomao (Jan 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> A bricklayers salary can surpass the average *£42,034* for an experienced and savvy individual


I shouldn't have sold all my tools to buy drugs lol. That's more than I make now. 

Or perhaps I should have taken my vertigo into account before learning to be a brickie in the first place. Could never work above the first floor. Only ever built garden walls.


----------



## campanula (Jan 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> I shouldn't have sold all my tools to buy drugs lol. That's more than I make now.
> 
> Or perhaps I should have taken my vertigo into account before learning to be a brickie in the first place. Could never work above the first floor. Only ever built garden walls.



Thought you could have reached the eaves just by standing on tiptoe. I have no problem with heights as long as I can keep a hand on a rail/rung/ or windowsill. Balancing  on a scaff board is a different matter altogether.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> I shouldn't have sold all my tools to buy drugs lol. That's more than I make now.


yeah and that's my point about (tory voting, property owning) C2s - there's good money out there. First hour call out charge is creeping up to £200 in some sectors IME.


----------



## maomao (Jan 15, 2020)

campanula said:


> Thought you could have reached the eaves just by standing on tiptoe.


Not quite. I could build a seven foot wall without standing on anything though.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 15, 2020)

Could you then put a floor in and build another seven foot wall from the inside? It was a misconceived day when anyone thought they needed more than fourteen foot walls.


----------



## maomao (Jan 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Could you then put a floor in and build another seven foot wall from the inside? It was a misconceived day when anyone thought they needed more than fourteen foot walls.


Never thought of that. I'll get started on the tower of babel tomorrow.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Going back to this topic for a second, this sounds about right for trades wages - basically getting on for 50k ,and more if your own business id expect. And this is classed as C2 right?
> 
> A plumbers salary after building a reputation is around *£46-48,675+*. Plumbers can be some of the most well-paid trade professions along with electricians, especially considering the extensive skills and the stomach for the role
> The average electricians salary is around *£47,265* especially once you’re gained solid experience in tackling the most common electrical faults
> ...



Problem with this like with lots of jobs is that they take a huge variety and median it so you get the people running firms employing people alongside the people they employ. I know lots of people with trades and some are doing very well, more aren't. I know one couple, he's a painter and decorator, typically very much considered at the scuzzy end of trade if trade at all and they are fucking wedged (also he's a twat but she's alright) but then running a firm and employing people does that doesn't it.

Dunno whether the business owners are in C2 either tbf, the sole traders with employees maybe, not the company directors I don't think though


----------



## Riklet (Jan 17, 2020)

64. Keep the Faith: Election Debrief
					

Play 64. Keep the Faith: Election Debrief by Desolation Radio on desktop and mobile. Play over 265 million tracks for free on SoundCloud.




					m.soundcloud.com
				




Some interesting analysis from Desolation Radio which I've only just got round to listening to.

Only cringe cringe bit is Dan saying Chris Williams did nothing wrong. Oh lolipop.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 25, 2020)

chilango said:


> I use "hobbyist" from time to time. And I don't exclude myself from the term when it fits.
> 
> It, for me, is pretty straightforward.
> 
> ...


regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out








						Left for Itself, A from Zer0 Books
					

In the first full length analysis of the rise of left-wing hobbyists, performative radicals and the 'Identity Left', A Left for Itself interrogates...




					www.johnhuntpublishing.com
				




David Aaranovitch is a fan.
A friend has read it. She says its got a lot of rose-tinted view of the past about it (though the author doesn't seem that old).
Having only been alive so long I wonder how much things have really changed. Materially and structurally they have obviously, but other than that...


----------



## chilango (Jan 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could be interesting. I'll keep an eye out for that.

I'd argue it's far from a new phenomenon though.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 25, 2020)

chilango said:


> Could be interesting. I'll keep an eye out for that.
> 
> I'd argue it's far from a new phenomenon though.


Yeah and the things that have changed are more complex - and i'm weary that there's a "blame young people" for it all, attitude to the book. Still I'm sure the arguments isn't as simple as that. Worth a peak


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is the opposite to 'hobbyist' a 'professional revolutionary'?


----------



## eoin_k (Jan 25, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Is the opposite to 'hobbyist' a 'professional revolutionary'?



Might be more professional than revolutionary given the enthusiastic reception from Stephen Kinnock, Progress and the Fabians.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 25, 2020)

eoin_k said:


> Might be more professional than revolutionary given the enthusiastic reception fromantic Stephen Kinnock, Progress and the Fabians.


Professional cunts


----------



## BristolEcho (Jan 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Yeah and the things that have changed are more complex - and i'm weary that there's a "blame young people" for it all, attitude to the book. Still I'm sure the arguments isn't as simple as that. Worth a peak



Does it have to be against young people? I think the rise of some groups that are more tasteful to the middle left that are also of attracting people of an older age such as with XR. There is also a bit of an erasure that goes on of past actions that have been successful all be it on small scales.


----------



## treelover (Jan 26, 2020)

chilango said:


> Could be interesting. I'll keep an eye out for that.
> 
> I'd argue it's far from a new phenomenon though.




Didn't Orwell write about similar issues?

btw, is it global, US, UK focused?


----------



## treelover (Jan 26, 2020)

> His central conceit is that the left since the 80’s has been taken over by ‘hobbyists’: people whose political commitments are more a matter of their identity and sense of meaning than a serious desire to change the world. It brings to mind Nick Cohen’s observations that some of the richest people he knows have shelves full of books by Chomsky - the explanation being that Chomsky’s simplistic, academic “The US/Capitalism is evil” analysis is no threat to these people, as it lacks any sort of a positive program for change that might harm their interests. As Cohen sees it, having Chomsky’s books on their shelves is a status symbol for a certain type of person - proof that they are wise and interesting enough not to be duped, but unencumbered by the dreary compromises that would be involved in doing anything about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



from a review, but I agree some seriousy wealthy people in my CLP, but they fought hard to win, and would have maybe lost out personally, etc. he is absolutely right about the lack of urgency though, UC is not affecting the former.


----------



## eoin_k (Jan 26, 2020)

treelover said:


> Didn't Orwell write about similar issues?
> 
> [...]



Was that before or after the old Etonian wrote his travel guides to European dosshouses?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2020)

A thread containing some statistical/demographic observations about the 2019 GE tory gains ("Blue wall" ) from the Resolution Foundation:



Seems quite reductive, and basically posits the 'left behind' nature of the seats as a deficiency of "demographic dynamism".
Hmmm


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> A thread containing some statistical/demographic observations about the 2019 GE tory gains ("Blue wall" ) from the Resolution Foundation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Some of this is really interesting:

1. Unlike the suggestion explicitly made, and endlessly repeated as fact by some on the left, this demonstrates that young people are not leaving towns - they are trapped there and not off (with their assumed labour votes) to the cities. So much for the old gammon voting for Brexit or nativist narratives of the middle class left.

2. There is no drain of talent to the cities for work either. These young people are not working in cities. 

These two points alone seem to shatter the basis of the analysis by Mason, Novara and others.

3. There is a greater reliance on benefits of all kinds in these areas suggesting a convergence of no work/precarious work/low pay work.

4. There remains an absence of one key factor in this report - and others - the voices of the people living in these areas.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> A thread containing some statistical/demographic observations about the 2019 GE tory gains ("Blue wall" ) from the Resolution Foundation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn’t see post above . 
My knowledge of some of these places is that industry has gone or declined, churn is small so few new people/few new startups , people stay , have family/ community ties perhaps property and due to appalling public transport compete over low pay retail type jobs in local diminishing high streets . Last time I was up that way I was shocked at cost of public transport to go out on a night out and for many even travelling to sign on is a prohibitive cost. Basically it means people may like living there but they are are stuck in Groundhog Day . .


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Some of this is really interesting:
> 
> 1. Unlike the suggestion made by some of the narratives this demonstrates that young people are not leaving towns - they are trapped there and not off (with their labour votes) to the cities. So much for the old gammon voting for Brexit or nativist narratives of the middle class left.
> 
> ...


Agree with all that interpretation and tbf to the liberals who wrote the report...they did at least have the good grace to say this in the last part:


The trouble with all the *mean* stats 'proving' how unexceptional these constituencies might be is that they can obviously disguise large differences within constituencies and don't begin to address how or why folk feel 'left behind'.


----------



## imposs1904 (Feb 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> regarding "hobbyists", there's a new book out
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's probably just me but I think it's funny that a book on left-wing hobbyists has been published by the premier left-wing vanity publishing company.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Agree with all that interpretation and tbf to the liberals who wrote the report...they did at least have the good grace to say this in the last part:
> 
> View attachment 198314
> The trouble with all the *mean* stats 'proving' how unexceptional these constituencies might be is that they can obviously disguise large differences within constituencies and don't begin to address how or why folk feel 'left behind'.




I agree. I also agree with Steps point above.

The value of the report is that it explodes the attempt by some on the left to explain the failure of labour as one of mere demographics. Under this analysis there are young people who are progressive and there are racist/nativist pensioners.

Key to cobbling this cobblers together was the suggestion that young people had fled the deindustrialised towns leaving only the latter there who booted Labour out

The report indicates that a much more complex and nuanced understanding is required.

It also suggests - again - the primacy of a specific class experience as the key marker.

By that I mean that there is no one working class experience, but there is a very specific and large scale one based on industrial decline in specific parts of England and Wales.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 12, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Some of this is really interesting:
> 
> 1. Unlike the suggestion explicitly made, and endlessly repeated as fact by some on the left, this demonstrates that young people are not leaving towns - they are trapped there and not off (with their assumed labour votes) to the cities. So much for the old gammon voting for Brexit or nativist narratives of the middle class left.
> 
> ...


At a glance some of that is You Can Prove Anything With Stats. I'm not saying it's all nonsense but the crucial stats for points 1 and 2 are the demographic breakdown of those areas. Age and income particularly, not averages

I'm on lunch so not about to go looking for more stats.

Also "It's also not true that Blue Wall residents are all being forced to commute to big cities nearby for work - in fact they are less likely to leave their local authority for work and have the shortest commutes (24 minutes)." Is a bit straw man. The only comment on this I heard is that as well as the more expected static population there are growing numbers of wealthier country home owning car owning commuters. The stats offered here don't shine any light on that phenomenon either way.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> At a glance some of that is You Can Prove Anything With Stats. I'm not saying it's all nonsense but the crucial stats for points 1 and 2 are the demographic breakdown of those areas. Age and income particularly, not averages
> 
> I'm on lunch so not about to go looking for more stats.
> 
> Also "It's also not true that Blue Wall residents are all being forced to commute to big cities nearby for work - in fact they are less likely to leave their local authority for work and have the shortest commutes (24 minutes)." Is a bit straw man. The only comment on this I heard is that as well as the more expected static population there are growing numbers of wealthier country home owning car owning commuters. The stats offered here don't shine any light on that phenomenon either way.



‘Growing numbers ‘ doesn’t really tell us much though . Growing numbers as in more than those whose incomes have remained static or fallen for the past decade ? Or more than those receiving some form of benefit? Towns in South Durham have always had houses in the countryside as they border the countryside . They had industry in the countryside and like anywhere else when people worked they bought their own houses . Unlike anywhere else or very few places house prices actually fell in some of these areas like Bishop Auckland . In those areas there’s always been Tories and Lib Dem’s , there’s always been people with a bit of cash and large houses in the country and in the towns , there’s always been commuters tbh but I’m far from convinced that this alleged growing number of country home owning commuters has had any real role in explaining the collapse of the Labour vote and the increase in the Tory vote.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 12, 2020)

People mainly see the effects of their local councils rather than labour MPs or candidates. I wonder how much of the vote was disillusion at the cuts from local Labour councils, with of course tory policy having explicitly been disproportionately targeting cuts at poorer councils over the years.

Although there are some really unpleasant labour councils I'm not sure that most of them have a lot of choice tbh. They basically either cut services and/or try to raise more in council taxes (aka 'gentrification') or they set an illegal budget and get removed from office so the tories come in saying "see we told you so, labour's not fit to govern - we've had to take over". You can't win a game where your opponent makes the rules.

And what made Corbyn so unpopular this election when he was clearly popular enough the last one? Demonized by a rabid right wing press perhaps.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 12, 2020)

two sheds said:


> People mainly see the effects of their local councils rather than labour MPs or candidates. I wonder how much of the vote was disillusion at the cuts from local Labour councils, with of course tory policy having explicitly been disproportionately targeting cuts at poorer councils over the years.
> 
> Although there are some really unpleasant labour councils I'm not sure that most of them have a lot of choice tbh. They basically either cut services and/or try to raise more in council taxes (aka 'gentrification') or they set an illegal budget and get removed from office so the tories come in saying "see we told you so, labour's not fit to govern - we've had to take over". You can't win a game where your opponent makes the rules.
> 
> And what made Corbyn so unpopular this election when he was clearly popular enough the last one? Demonized by a rabid right wing press perhaps.


True about Labour Councils tbh


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 12, 2020)

What a sick fucking guy.

Hail Corbyn!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 12, 2020)

two sheds said:


> People mainly see the effects of their local councils rather than labour MPs or candidates. I wonder how much of the vote was disillusion at the cuts from local Labour councils, with of course tory policy having explicitly been disproportionately targeting cuts at poorer councils over the years.
> 
> Although there are some really unpleasant labour councils I'm not sure that most of them have a lot of choice tbh. They basically either cut services and/or try to raise more in council taxes (aka 'gentrification') or they set an illegal budget and get removed from office so the tories come in saying "see we told you so, labour's not fit to govern - we've had to take over". You can't win a game where your opponent makes the rules.
> 
> And what made Corbyn so unpopular this election when he was clearly popular enough the last one? Demonized by a rabid right wing press perhaps.



Yes the tory long game of defunding labour-held local authorities has really paid off. Our local council put up adverts all round the city moaning about the inequality in funding between here and I think it was Oxford or something, but even that just made me think a) why are you spending my money on these ads instead of on services and b) what the fuck do you expect me to do about it?


----------



## treelover (Feb 12, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Some of this is really interesting:
> 
> 1. Unlike the suggestion explicitly made, and endlessly repeated as fact by some on the left, this demonstrates that young people are not leaving towns - they are trapped there and not off (with their assumed labour votes) to the cities. So much for the old gammon voting for Brexit or nativist narratives of the middle class left.
> 
> ...



Do you write anywhere else, i think it would be valuable for the wider debate.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Although there are some really unpleasant labour councils I'm not sure that most of them have a lot of choice tbh.


Of course they do. If you buy this line you have to accept that business "don't have a lot of choice" when they make staff redundant or employ people on casual contracts. This is weak. You would not accept it from a LD/PC/SNP council so whitewash it when it is Labour councils doing it.

EDIT


two sheds said:


> You can't win a game where your opponent makes the rules.


If that is the case why _are _you playing by those rules, and insisting others do so.


----------



## treelover (Feb 12, 2020)

What was so revealing about the GE coverage was how much was given to LP splits, etc, when the huge cleavage in the Tories, a whole wing leaving or kicked out got much less coverage.


----------



## treelover (Feb 12, 2020)

Might be worth having a Cummings watch, he seems to be getting a lot right, in those terms.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 12, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> is the case why _are _you playing by those rules, and insisting others do so.


You're quite no-one has to play by the rules but the alternative is not playing at all, not playing by a different set. 
Any Labour councillor can of course refuse to implement the policies of a Tory government but they will be removed and replaced by someone who will so perhaps they justify it to themselves with the argument that they are making at least a small difference.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 12, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Any Labour councillor can of course refuse to implement the policies of a Tory government but they will be removed and replaced by someone who will so perhaps they justify it to themselves with the argument that they are making at least a small difference.



That could indeed happen. But let’s imagine there was a Labour Council in, say, a large city. Maybe the second biggest. I’d imagine it’d be the largest local authority in Europe.

Now let’s imagine that between 2010 and 2019 the Tories cut £800M from your budget. Let’s now construct two options if further cuts are demanded:

1. implement the cuts. Spark a damaging war with your own refuse collectors. Which you lose. Spark a war with your own home helps by imposing a contract that would make the worst private sector contractor blush. Which you also lose. Cut the services to the most vulnerable. An example would be a neighbour with a disabled kid who is told that they won’t get their son collected and taken to school any more and that one of the parents will need to give up their second job to take him and collect him.

Or

2. you could note the planned cuts and call public meetings in every ward and place possible to explain to people what the cuts would mean. Set out what is at stake and ask for their support and help to resist. You could implore the 1.4 million citizens of the city to protest, to bombard their MPs and the government and pressure them to think again, give ground and address the mass grievances. You could launch a social media campaign. You could call marches. You could bring other labour councils together to demand change. You could get unions, community groups, others involved. You could demand the labour front bench prioritise the issue. You could ensure every active Labour Party member in the city was actively engaged in the campaign.

And when you’ve done all that you could decide your next move. And decide it with all those supporting you.

If the answer is 1 then the question must be what’s the point of Labour councils?


----------



## treelover (Feb 12, 2020)

I wrote to my MP post election citing 2


----------



## two sheds (Feb 12, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That could indeed happen. But let’s imagine there was a Labour Council in, say, a large city. Maybe the second biggest. I’d imagine it’d be the largest local authority in Europe.
> 
> Now let’s imagine that between 2010 and 2019 the Tories cut £800M from your budget. Let’s now construct two options if further cuts are demanded:
> 
> ...



I agree with you. So what's the decision? There's no money for what the kid takes to school. No, really no money :eeek: So where's the money coming from, and then what's the point of your council? 

Not that I agree with labour councils cutting money but it's a tory decision.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 12, 2020)

treelover said:


> I wrote to my MP post election citing 2



Lots of us have. But it needs to be collective, visible, empowering and creative of a super majority against the cuts.

it’s the fact that labour councils are even trying to do this that is most revealing. During the bin strike I approached my local councillor and very politely tried to discuss why the council didn’t try this. She was horrified and basically told me to do one. She’s also a momentum supporter.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 12, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> That could indeed happen. But let’s imagine there was a Labour Council in, say, a large city. Maybe the second biggest. I’d imagine it’d be the largest local authority in Europe.
> 
> Now let’s imagine that between 2010 and 2019 the Tories cut £800M from your budget. Let’s now construct two options if further cuts are demanded:
> 
> ...


You've answered your own question by your logic there is no point to Labour councils, 2 sounds good but it's not really very likely is it? 
The big problem with trying to start a revolution at the moment is that you would be facing off (and much as this sticks in my craw) against a democratically elected government that clearly enjoys a great deal of public support.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 12, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You've answered your own question by your logic there is no point to Labour councils, 2 sounds good but it's not really very likely is it?
> The big problem with trying to start a revolution at the moment is that you would be facing off (and much as this sticks in my craw) against a democratically elected government that clearly enjoys a great deal of public support.



under option 2 the very worst that could happen is the cuts happen and everyone knows who is responsible. Even that is better than option 1.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> ‘Growing numbers ‘ doesn’t really tell us much though . Growing numbers as in more than those whose incomes have remained static or fallen for the past decade ? Or more than those receiving some form of benefit? Towns in South Durham have always had houses in the countryside as they border the countryside . They had industry in the countryside and like anywhere else when people worked they bought their own houses . Unlike anywhere else or very few places house prices actually fell in some of these areas like Bishop Auckland . In those areas there’s always been Tories and Lib Dem’s , there’s always been people with a bit of cash and large houses in the country and in the towns , there’s always been commuters tbh but I’m far from convinced that this alleged growing number of country home owning commuters has had any real role in explaining the collapse of the Labour vote and the increase in the Tory vote.


Agree....the "growing numbers" was anecdotal and one very minor part of post election talk. It was definitely not that case that anyone was saying "residents are all being forced to commute to big cities nearby for work". My point overall I'm not finding those stats as presented on twitter particularly meaningful. Maybe there's more in the report proper. Maybe the 2021 census will be better yet.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 12, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You've answered your own question by your logic there is no point to Labour councils, 2 sounds good but it's not really very likely is it?



Well no, and that's the crux of the problem with Labour. You don't have to have any links in the community to be a labour councillor, you just have to be in with the local party mandarins. This gets worse where Labour have total domination of a local authority, and the 'democracy' bit is barely even a formality.

Our city council is enthusiastically going down the gentrification route, basically running a private development company with public money, which might boost the coffers but will ultimately just be used as an excuse for central government to hack the budget back even more. And that budget will have to stretch further because oh shit, gentrification makes people poorer and more in need of support.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Feb 12, 2020)

Also that popularity* of the tories is because lots of w/c people don't see labour representing their interests, don't see the point of labour. Because labour councils do the same things as tory councils.

* really don't think this is the right term btw. It's more negative than that.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2020)

Mate of mine went before a local Labour selection panel to stand as a Council candidate and failed to get selected because he ‘failed’ the “Would you ever vote for an illegal budget” question. To his credit he declared that he didn’t recognise the concept of an illegal budget.👍


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 12, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> under option 2 the very worst that could happen is the cuts happen and everyone knows who is responsible. Even that is better than option 1.


Fair enough you can therefore accuse them of moral cowardice by not resigning en-masse rather than do something they should be opposed too or be matyred picking a fight they will lose. However what then happens if Labour stop fighting local elections and allow the others free reign? Suppose a Labour Govt wins (no howun likely that is at the moment) and then devolves power to run public services to Conservative/Liberal dominated Local Authorities who aren't interested in such powers?


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 12, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> * really don't think this is the right term btw. It's more negative than that.



Definitely agree with that. The Tories are not _genuinely_ popular at all.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 12, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Definitely agree with that. The Tories are not _genuinely_ popular at all.


32.7% of voters (larger than any share bar the Tories) didn't vote, their reasons are many and complex but if they can't be arsed with a 5 minute walk to put an X on piece of paper, they're unlikely candidates for manning the barricades.
43.6% voted for the Tories again their reasons for voting so will vary but whatever their reason was be it Brexit or wanting tax cuts or worrying about the realities of Labour's plan it was more important to them than ending austerity or extending workers rights or anthing else in Labours relatively radical manifesto. (The 2.7% who voted Brexit are pretty much Tory voters by a different name) 
LibDems got 11% (whether you think you're Yellow Tories or not, their voters are if not supporters of the Tories not opponents either)
Define popular, people who voted Tory because they thought it was most likely to get them what they consider to be important to them, I would define that as popular support not people throwing parties and toasting Boris but I certainly know of people doing that.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 12, 2020)

Actually I reckon non voters are probably the most likely to man the barricades or lob things at coppers because they're the ones who recognise the futility of playing those cunts' games


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## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You're quite no-one has to play by the rules but the alternative is not playing at all, not playing by a different set.


Cobblers. The LP itself in the past has at times decided to challenge those rules.


MickiQ said:


> Any Labour councillor can of course refuse to implement the policies of a Tory government but they will be removed and replaced by someone who will so perhaps they justify it to themselves with the argument that they are making at least a small difference.


As Smokeandsteam outlined you don't just refuse to implement cuts you use the refusal to mount a political challenge to th idea of cuts. No one is proposing the Labour councillors not implementing cuts simply as a end but as part of a political response, one that is rooted in communities.

FFS the idea that this is revolutionary is not just silly it is totally ahistoric - Popular was/is once one of the folk victories of the LP that so many members do not seem to recognise that is pathetic.


two sheds said:


> I agree with you. So what's the decision? There's no money for what the kid takes to school. No, really no money :eeek: So where's the money coming from, and then what's the point of your council?
> 
> Not that I agree with labour councils cutting money but it's a tory decision.


Of course there is money, that fact that you are talking the line that there "really [is] no money" is part of the problem. And no it is not a Tory decision it is a decision being made by the councillors you are proposing people vote for, that you are supporting.

When Labour councillors implement cuts they are attacking labour, and when you (as a LP member) support those councillors you are giving support to attacks on labour. Now if you want to argue that such actions are a necessary evil go ahead. It is the nature of capitalism that we are all going to have to make hard choices sometimes but FFS don't hide your head in the sand and pretend that you are not choosing to make a political action.

Have the moral and intellectual honesty to recognise the part that you and your party is playing. Otherwise you are absolving everyone from any political action they take ever - I've no choice but to scab, there's no choice but for me to make 200 people redundant, there's no choice for us but to attack strikers.


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## andysays (Feb 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Cobblers. The LP itself in the past has at times decided to challenge those rules.
> As Smokeandsteam outlined you don't just refuse to implement cuts you use the refusal to mount a political challenge to th idea of cuts. No one is proposing the Labour councillors not implementing cuts simply as a end but as part of a political response, one that is rooted in communities.
> 
> FFS the idea that this is revolutionary is not just silly it is totally ahistoric - Popular was/is once one of the folk victories of the LP that so many members do not seem to recognise that is pathetic.
> ...


It's Poplar, not (ironically) Popular*, and the idea that a current day Labour council could or would do anything similar is frankly ridiculous.

* I realise this is probably an auto correct mistake, but if it's such an important part of Labour Party history, the least you can do is ensure you spell it right


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## butchersapron (Feb 13, 2020)

Michael Marrus and Robert O. Paxton prefaced their utterly damning book Vichy France and the Jews with this:

_In a dreadful moment in history it was argued that one only carried out unjust laws in order to weaken their severity, that the power one agreed to exercise would have done even more damage if it had been placed in hands which were less pure.

What a deceitful rationalization, which opened the door to unlimited criminality! Everyone eased his conscience, and each level of injustice found a willing executor. In such circumstances, it seems to me, innocence was murdered, with the pretext that it bes strangledmore gently._

Benjamin Constant
Principes de politique, applicables à tous les gouvernements représentatifs et particulièrement à la constitution actuelle de la France (1815)


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## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2020)

Excellent quote BA. 


andysays said:


> the idea that a current day Labour council could or would do anything similar is frankly ridiculous.


Which rather says something about the about the LP


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## andysays (Feb 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Which rather says something about the about the LP


It does, but to me it also says  something about those who apparently seriously expect the Labour party to do something it clearly isn't going to do, whoever becomes the next leader


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 13, 2020)

andysays said:


> It does, but to me it also says  something about those who apparently seriously expect the Labour party to do something it clearly isn't going to do, whoever becomes the next leader



You are absolutely right. And instead of faux radicalism and pissy bluster this is something a party genuinely serious about showing that it’s committed to protecting jobs and the most vulnerable, _and changing the narrative and rebuilding local civic structures, _could and should be seriously thinking about and planning. In fact, if it would be at its core


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## brogdale (Feb 13, 2020)

Socialism Today - Forty years on: How Clay Cross council fought the  Tories


redsquirrel said:


> Cobblers. The LP itself in the past has at times decided to challenge those rules.
> As Smokeandsteam outlined you don't just refuse to implement cuts you use the refusal to mount a political challenge to th idea of cuts. No one is proposing the Labour councillors not implementing cuts simply as a end but as part of a political response, one that is rooted in communities.
> 
> FFS the idea that this is revolutionary is not just silly it is totally ahistoric - Popular was/is once one of the folk victories of the LP that so many members do not seem to recognise that is pathetic.
> ...


Obvious case study, but one that younger posters may not be so familiar with:

Socialism Today - Forty years on: How Clay Cross council fought the  Tories


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## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2020)

andysays said:


> It does, but to me it also says  something about those who apparently seriously expect the Labour party to do something it clearly isn't going to do, whoever becomes the next leader


Well that's a question that needs to be asked to two sheds and other LP members not me.


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## treelover (Feb 13, 2020)

LL this morning, Nandy noted how many people in Worksop she has just visited, said they voted tory because of local cuts, attitude of council, 

No one in the audience asked whether they would back Joe Anderson if he goes with his pledge to not support any more cuts.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Definitely agree with that. The Tories are not _genuinely_ popular at all.


or rather they're genuinely not popular.


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## brogdale (Feb 13, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> 32.7% of voters (larger than any share bar the Tories) didn't vote, their reasons are many and complex but if they can't be arsed with a 5 minute walk to put an X on piece of paper, they're unlikely candidates for manning the barricades.
> 43.6% voted for the Tories again their reasons for voting so will vary but whatever their reason was be it Brexit or wanting tax cuts or worrying about the realities of Labour's plan it was more important to them than ending austerity or extending workers rights or anthing else in Labours relatively radical manifesto. (The 2.7% who voted Brexit are pretty much Tory voters by a different name)
> LibDems got 11% (whether you think you're Yellow Tories or not, their voters are if not supporters of the Tories not opponents either)
> Define popular, people who voted Tory because they thought it was most likely to get them what they consider to be important to them, I would define that as popular support not people throwing parties and toasting Boris but I certainly know of people doing that.


Not having a go, or anything...but if you're opening with the 32.7% of the electorate who did not vote, then logically, the relevant tory % share of the electorate was 29.3%, not the 43.6% of those voting.
small point, I know...but...


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## ska invita (Feb 18, 2020)

Coming back to this topic of northern swing towns and their demographics
Richard Seymour here








						Losing the North - Salvage
					

Just how serious is Labour’s problem in the North of England? As Lewis Baston points out, the journalistic cliche of the ‘red wall’ that developed over the last few weeks is highly misleading. The myth resonates because it stems from a partial historical truth. Labourism was born in the...




					salvage.zone
				




finds a link to show that the Tories had been thinking about northern towns and their demographics ahead of the election








						Ian Warren and Will Jennings: Addressing the needs of towns is key to winning this election | Conservative Home
					

Around two-thirds of the top 100 marginal seats are town constituencies. That presents an opportunity.




					www.conservativehome.com
				




heres a couple of stats from the peice











the article and data comes from Centre For Towns Data
Their data is based on 1981-2011 census information, so we'll have more accurate stats after 2021 census


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## teqniq (Feb 19, 2020)

Well, there's a surprise.









						Revealed: The secret cash that put Boris Johnson in Number 10
					

Cash from secretive Tory groups and anonymous donors played a critical role in demolishing Labour’s ‘red wall’ of northern seats, the key strategy that won the election for Boris Johnson.




					www.opendemocracy.net


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