# We want a Tank for DSEi!



## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 28, 2007)

WE WANT A TANK, WE NEED A TANK, HELP THIS GOOD CAUSE! 

*Who are the Space Hijackers? *

The Space Hijackers are a bunch of misfit troublemakers who have been kicking up a storm since 1999. We have held parties for 3000 people on the London Underground circle line, we have tricked Nike Town into a half price sale by printing our own “EVERYTHING INSTORE HALF PRICE TODAY” T-shirts and tidying up. We have bought a boat and invaded an island in the Docklands in London to host a pirate party and we have smashed the Capitalists for six in our midnight Anarchist Vs Capitalist cricket tournaments. 

*What’s this all about?* 

There comes a time in every activist groups development when they realise that there is something missing in their set up. We have been striving to cause trouble, save the world and wind up the powers that be for 8 years now. However we still don't own a tank, or indeed any kind of armoured personnel carrier. 
Please help us right this wrong. 

*Why do you need a tank? *

Every two years the ExCeL exhibition centre in East London plays host to DSEi, Europe’s largest arms fair. Representatives from all of the major arms manufacturers pimp their wares to rogue states, impoverished nations and invading armies with the full support of the UK government. In fact the police firearms squad tried to raid the fair in 2005 only to be turned back by the government. 

On the last two occasions we have attempted to infiltrate the fair, embarrass the dealers and cause a ruckus. In 2003, we caught the trains to the fair with the arms dealers. Suited up and looking business-like we pulled prosthetic limbs (arms) from our cases and attempted to sell them to the dealers. In 2005, worried about their obsession with phallic objects such as rockets we attempted to sell sex toys to the dealers to make up for their lack of “weapons capabilities”. Generally however we are escorted out by the police. 

This year we have decided to take things up a notch or ten. We want to buy a tank, we want to drive it into the arms fair! We don’t want to be shoved around by burly policemen any more. Can’t really say much more at the moment, but you get the gist. 

*What about after the Arms Fair? *

Assuming they haven’t tested their anti tank missiles on us. We are an enterprising group, with mischief simply brimming out of our beer fuelled brains. We have many many many plans for the tank in the future, especially once we have kitted it out with a full sound system (which has already been donated!) 

*How can I help? *

You can help by lending us one of your tanks if you have any spare. 
You can help by offering us free secure parking for our tank. 
You can help by lending us your mechanic skills to turn our gas guzzler into a bio diesel green tank. 

Of course the simplest way of helping is by giving us a small amount of money towards the tank or by passing this email on to your rich mates and getting them to donate us a slightly larger amount of money. 

Click on the link below to donate and forward this to your friends 

http://www.spacehijackers.org/tank


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## newbie (Jun 28, 2007)

Lost Vagueness had two at Glasto.  They'd had their gun turrets removed though.


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## tufty79 (Jun 28, 2007)

woot!
how do i become a space hijacker?


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## subversplat (Jun 28, 2007)

I know someone who bought a tank from the MOD and it still had an SA80 and two Brownings in it with lots of ammo  (although it also still had the boots of the previous occupier...)

So, err, check what you're buying 

Anyway, I've always personally liked the look of those Soviet tanks. This one will probably run quite happily on vegetable oil (perhaps with a tiny bit of diesel to thin it out or turn over the engine in the cold)


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## selamlar (Jun 28, 2007)

> You can help by lending us your mechanic skills to turn our gas guzzler into a bio diesel green tank.



That bits easy.  Most 'old school' tanks had massively detuned engines anyway, so they will run on pretty damn much whatever you care to give them.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jun 28, 2007)

You want a tank?  I think there is a fair coming up soon in London where you can buy one.      Actually you might have a problem only buying one, they will expect you to order hundreds.

Come to think of it wasn't there a girls school that bought some arms from a dealer as part of a television programme?  Find out who they were and ask for their contact.

Careful though guys, the police guarding this event have a record of dishing it out.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 28, 2007)

Hocus Eye. said:
			
		

> Careful though guys, the police guarding this event have a record of dishing it out.



Which is why we need a tank!


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## nosos (Jun 28, 2007)

tufty79 said:
			
		

> woot!
> how do i become a space hijacker?


Are you a wanky arts student per chance?


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## tufty79 (Jun 28, 2007)

nope. 
just wanky.


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## nosos (Jun 28, 2007)

you won't fit in. sorry


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 28, 2007)

nosos said:
			
		

> you won't fit in. sorry




OOOoooooooh look at her


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## tufty79 (Jun 28, 2007)

nosos said:
			
		

> you won't fit in. sorry


i know my arse's not exactly on the small side, but for gods sake man, it's a TANK. 
course i'd fit


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## nosos (Jun 28, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> OOOoooooooh look at her


bitchy today aren't i?


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## bmd (Jun 28, 2007)

Might be something here. If not they may know someone.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 28, 2007)

Bob Marleys Dad said:
			
		

> Might be something here. If not they may know someone.




Yes I spoke to the guy from there the other day, very very helpful.

Depending on how much we raise they have a variety of options.  The cheapest being a ferret armoured personelly carrier with a turret and gun, running right up to big tracked mother fucker tanks.  (we need to pass an H licence for the tracked ones though).

So please pass on the request to all of your friends!

Most old tanks are road tax exempt which also helps matters.

the scary thing is that we are all becoming a bit obsessed with tank porn, and are learning the differences in thickness of armour and max speeds of a host of ex military vehicles.


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## Fuchs66 (Jun 28, 2007)

Get a Ferret (scout car btw) theyre fun to drive but the pre-select gear change takes some getting used to.


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## likesfish (Jun 28, 2007)

quite cool if they turned up at dsei and somebody tested a javelin on them


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jun 28, 2007)

These are the ferrets: (about £6000)







But we really want a fox: (about £15000)






And we really really want a T72 (about £30000)


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## spitfire (Jun 28, 2007)

try this site.

http://www. milweb .net/


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 2, 2007)

T-shirts coming soon.

I spoke to the lovely people at fifth column today and they are going to help us print some t-shirts to raise funds.  They will probably be £20 each, here is the design: 

"I HELPED ARM THE SPACE HIJACKERS"  

Check the hijacker site for details in the next couple of days.


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## tufty79 (Jul 2, 2007)

is the plan still to cover the tank in red velvet?


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## marty21 (Jul 3, 2007)

*sign the pledge too!!!*

http://www.pledgebank.com/tankFundBig


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## smokedout (Jul 3, 2007)

yeah cos if people are prepared to donate 10 grand to the anarchist movement then what better way to spend it then buying a bunch of art students a tank that will probably end up confiscated and impounded on its first action


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 4, 2007)

What better way indeed?  Sounds like an ace idea to me!  


p.s. 

Contrary to popular opinion, the hijackers aren't all art school types. We are computer geeks, students, professional knitters, unemployed, independent cinema managers, art students, instrument makers, charity workers, projectionists, graffiti writers, ethical fashion designers, campaign organisers, teachers, doctors, dj's, free party organisers, underwear models, school children, photographers, lawyers, and porn stars to name but a few.


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## tufty79 (Jul 4, 2007)

ooo.
my dad's got a friend with an armoured car to lend, if the tank don't come through....


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 4, 2007)

how about a convoy? Get your dad's mates car, get aphex twin on the road etc


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## tufty79 (Jul 4, 2007)

even betterer!


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## samk (Jul 4, 2007)

bettererer still, get a penny farthing and tophat and politely explain that you have just come back from a long trip and you own the site.

You can also ask selected officials of various companies about the interest they owe you over the last hundred and ten years


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## marty21 (Jul 4, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> yeah cos if people are prepared to donate 10 grand to the anarchist movement then what better way to spend it then buying a bunch of art students a tank that will probably end up confiscated and impounded on its first action



it's their money, they can spend it how they want tbh


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## fogbat (Jul 4, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> yeah cos if people are prepared to donate 10 grand to the anarchist movement then what better way to spend it then buying a bunch of art students a tank that will probably end up confiscated and impounded on its first action



Disgraceful, isn't it?

These anarchists need a group of people in charge


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## samk (Jul 5, 2007)

fogbat said:
			
		

> These anarchists need a group of people in charge


The anarchists with the tank (until such time as tank is confiscated) are the anarchists in charge 

If there is more than one tank in anarchist posession, the result could of course be anarchy


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## tufty79 (Jul 5, 2007)

i read a fabulous headline once....

'anarchist convention descends into order'....


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## laptop (Jul 5, 2007)

Hocus Eye. said:
			
		

> Come to think of it wasn't there a girls school that bought some arms from a dealer as part of a television programme?  Find out who they were and ask for their contact.



In Portlaoise, Ireland: c/o Mark Thomas

* Banishes thoughts of a St Trinians' Tank Trip *

(But didn't I see a plug for a St Trinians' remake? I did. Moolah there, I think...)


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## samk (Jul 5, 2007)

tufty79 said:
			
		

> i read a fabulous headline once....
> 
> 'anarchist convention descends into order'....


Quick, give them some administrators and a large it system project..
...that'll sort 'em out


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## DrRingDing (Jul 5, 2007)

marty21 said:
			
		

> http://www.pledgebank.com/tankFundBig



Signed.

http://www.russiantruck.co.uk/tracked2.html


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## DrRingDing (Jul 5, 2007)

If you lot are going to be succesful with the tank you need the backing of a good 1000 or so of demonstrators to keep the plod at bay.

Loads of disperate actions are not going to help.

A critical mass of partying, militant and determined protesters are needed.

Keeping the tank clandestinely hid will be hard enough in east london and driving it to the critical mass of people will be even more of a challenge.

Maybe one mass meeting place and then move on to find the vehicle?  

I'd love to be section 60'd with a tank on our side  

Well all this is relevant if you're collective intentions are to stop this arms boot fair with force or just trying to get your faces in the Guardian and be the talk of your scene.


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## DrRingDing (Jul 5, 2007)

I'm not sure of the legality of driving a tracked vehicle on the road, a wheeled tank would be fine and dirt cheap to insure.


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## tufty79 (Jul 5, 2007)

i'm in the stop the fair camp 
i also love fun


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## DrRingDing (Jul 5, 2007)

tufty79 said:
			
		

> i'm in the stop the fair camp
> i also love fun



A rucus with the rozzers can be such fun


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## tufty79 (Jul 5, 2007)

*


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## Dhimmi (Jul 5, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> I'm not sure of the legality of driving a tracked vehicle on the road, a wheeled tank would be fine and dirt cheap to insure.



So long as you've got road tracks on it's quite legal. But at the moment they've only raised enough to buy a trailer or similar...


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## laptop (Jul 5, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> I'm not sure of the legality of driving a tracked vehicle on the road



And a traffic warden is going to do what?


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## samk (Jul 5, 2007)

Call the army for backup


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## marty21 (Jul 5, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> And a traffic warden is going to do what?



i feel tracks are needed - like to see them trying to clamp them - and would love to see them trying to remove it as well, a real challenge for the council


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## Taxamo Welf (Jul 6, 2007)

nosos said:
			
		

> Are you a wanky arts student per chance?


well played


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## Taxamo Welf (Jul 6, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> This year we have decided to take things up a notch or ten. We want to buy a tank, we want to drive it into the arms fair!


Bollocks you will.


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## fogbat (Jul 6, 2007)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> well played



Hilarious, eh?


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## tufty79 (Jul 7, 2007)

i *think* i *may* have found a tank for free.
and a massive supply of velvet 

oh and the massive supplier of velvet said they're also willing to do the fitting.
and chesterfield padding was mentioned..

like this:







but more tank-ish.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 7, 2007)

hello tufty, please send me a PM.

the rest of yous is all haterz


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## Taxamo Welf (Jul 7, 2007)

fogbat said:
			
		

> Hilarious, eh?


yes you dickhead.

I take it you've been to a lot of anti-DSEI events?


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## likesfish (Jul 8, 2007)

new a cav officer who had had his  scorpion driven  into Salisbury once it was'nt the tracks that foiled them it was lack of windscreen wipers where do you put the ticket


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 16, 2007)

Ok thanks to the lovely people at fifth column we now have t-shirts available!

donate over £22 and we will send you a free "I HELPED ARM THE SPACE HIJACKERS" T-shirt.  

http://www.spacehijackers.org/tank


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## quimcunx (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm so not going to read this whole thread so I have no idea if you found one or not. or if the thing you wanted it for has been and gone.  (didn't even read the OP tbh)  so I'll apologise now for being a prize idiot.   

Have you tried John Gladden, he's a Croydon businessman.  He used to have a yello tank.


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## smokedout (Jul 22, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Well all this is relevant if you're collective intentions are to stop this arms boot fair with force or just trying to get your faces in the Guardian and be the talk of your scene.



i think, given previous form we know the answer to that


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## biff curtains (Jul 23, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> What better way indeed?  Sounds like an ace idea to me!
> 
> 
> p.s.
> ...



The death of satire.


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## In Bloom (Jul 24, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Well all this is relevant if you're collective intentions are to stop this arms boot fair with force...


Stop DSEi with force, deary fucking me


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## DrRingDing (Jul 24, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Stop DSEi with force, deary fucking me



Yea that's right people should have stayed at home and gaffawed instead of going to the demos in Seattle and Prague becasue they obviously couldn't close those down.


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## In Bloom (Jul 24, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Yea that's right people should have stayed at home and gaffawed instead of going to the demos in Seattle and Prague becasue they obviously couldn't close those down.


*checks calender*

Nope, still pretty sure the problem's at your end, mate.

Even if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague, what would that achieve?  What concrete gains were made among all the arrests and serious injuries in every other summit protest over the last few years?


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## llantwit (Jul 24, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> What concrete gains were made among all the arrests and serious injuries in every other summit protest over the last few years?


The formation of countless relationships of international solidarity?
Or is that too ephemaral?


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## In Bloom (Jul 24, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> The formation of countless relationships of international solidarity?


They could have sprung up from anything.  You could have organised an annual fun run where large groups of anarchists run through a major high street bollocko, with prizes for whoever shoplifts the best outfit along the way and it would have built up relationships, networks of support, etc.

What have summit protests ever achieved that is unique to summit protests?


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## KeyboardJockey (Jul 24, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> *checks calender*
> 
> Nope, still pretty sure the problem's at your end, mate.
> 
> Even if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague, what would that achieve?  What concrete gains were made among all the arrests and serious injuries in every other summit protest over the last few years?




Zero concrete  gains I'm afraid.  All that will  happen is the govt will move the fair to a more defendable location.  

Injuries and arrests for fuck all really.

I sometimes wonder whether or not the anarchos who mouth off about violent direct action are just in it for the buzz of the violence.  Maybe if their life paths had been different they would have been football hoolies.  

I used to think that in some circumstances violent direct action could in certain limited circumstances achieve something but as time has gone by I've come to the conclusion that most of the time it achieves fuck all.


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## Taxamo Welf (Jul 25, 2007)

In BloomEven if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague said:
			
		

> regardless of that fun fun discussion, there is NO commitment, NONE WHATSOEVER to taking on that kind of action around dsei anyway. Especially not from the fucking space invaders.
> 
> Thats the main point here - whether its 'worth it' or not, dsei is not going to be 'shut down'. The space invaders may well get some good press for putting the fun into protesting man. Cos if you're going to make  statement, do it in stlye! Yeah!
> 
> ...


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## winjer (Jul 25, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> yeah cos if people are prepared to donate 10 grand to the anarchist movement then what better way to spend it then buying a bunch of art students a tank that will probably end up confiscated and impounded on its first action


The only good system is a sound system?


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## Taxamo Welf (Jul 25, 2007)

winjer said:
			
		

> The only good system is a sound system?


mwahaha haa haaaa!

well played winjer!


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## Blagsta (Jul 26, 2007)

winjer said:
			
		

> The only good system is a sound system?



I have a t-shirt with that on


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## Blagsta (Jul 26, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> They could have sprung up from anything.  You could have organised an annual fun run where large groups of anarchists run through a major high street bollocko, with prizes for whoever shoplifts the best outfit along the way and it would have built up relationships, networks of support, etc.



Would that have brought people into contact with radical ideas who wanted to do something politically, but didn't know how?

I agree that these actions don't achieve much else, but they do bring people into radical politics.


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## In Bloom (Jul 26, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Would that have brought people into contact with radical ideas who wanted to do something politically, but didn't know how?
> 
> I agree that these actions don't achieve much else, but they do bring people into radical politics.


The thing is that this could happen through pretty much anything.  Not literally anything, of course, but still, it strikes me as a bit silly that so many people need a "way in" to radical politics and that so often, it's doing a lot of pointless shit.


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## Blagsta (Jul 26, 2007)

I understand your frustrations with the dead endedness of it, but it does bring people in.


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## llantwit (Jul 26, 2007)

I also get where you're coming from, but I think it's a bit too gloomy. Well, a lot too gloomy really.
There's the international solidarity - which, yeah, could've been fostered by other kinds of events. But the fact is they were fostered by these events, and it's a positive thing. I don't really get your point. To say they could have been achieved by other means doesn't take you anywhere really, does it? 
I think the camps that sprung up around the summits are often inspiring places to be. They introduce people to direct democracy (or re-affirm peoples' belief it), and give them an insight into what it's like to run thier own lives collectively with a large and diverse group of people. Also a positive thing.
I also think that as a way of 'bringing people in' they're pretty succesful. I've seen loads of people over the years who've developed a higher level of militancy after going to a summit, which has fed into their actions back home. Another good thing.
And they have a symbolic impact, which shouldn't be ignored or dismissed as unimportant. Not always a positive thing, but I'm sure it's had some positive impact.


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## llantwit (Jul 26, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> They could have sprung up from anything.  You could have organised an annual fun run where large groups of anarchists run through a major high street bollocko, with prizes for whoever shoplifts the best outfit along the way and it would have built up relationships, networks of support, etc.
> What have summit protests ever achieved that is unique to summit protests?


I take your point... but so what?
You asked... 



			
				In Bloom said:
			
		

> What concrete gains were made among all the arrests and serious injuries in every other summit protest over the last few years?


... and there are quite a few. Doesn't matter if they could have been achieved by other hypothetical means. What matters is they _were _achieved by these means. [end of de-rail]


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## In Bloom (Jul 26, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> I understand your frustrations with the dead endedness of it, but it does bring people in.


But is that a reason to advocate it as a tactic (as DrRingDing was effectively doing)?  Aren't there more useful things we could be getting on with, which, by the very fact that they are more relevant to people's everyday lives would be far more effective in radicalising people, as well as being useful in and of themselves?

On a sidenote, and I'm not sure I conveyed this so well in my last post, I'm less than comfortable with this idea that what we need to be doing is drawing people into the activist milleu.  Surely the fact that there is an "in" and an "out" is already problematic?


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## tufty79 (Jul 30, 2007)

well....
personally i've done a climate pirate demo once, and that's as radical as i've got.  i'm a pretty fluffy person, generally 
this year i'm disarming disei, and i'm climate camping (i've met a couple of other people who're dsei-ing and also doing this , which makes me feel a bit more confident about going to something massive where i don't know many people and will definitely get covered in mud, and possibly arrested/roughed up).

it's also making me super-aware of the 'choose your battles' thing - a fuckload of work is required, as well as the fun bits....
i want to help with no borders too but ... ag... at the very least, i'm gonna help out with the conversation classes down at commonplace.
we'll see what life's like after september (not that it all stops then, of course.....)
/my bit of derail


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## Blagsta (Jul 30, 2007)

Point being, I think, that politics shouldn't be confined to one off symbolic actions.  It should be part and parcel of struggles in the community and the workplace and how we relate to our fellow human beings.


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## laptop (Jul 30, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Even if there was the tiniest little chance of shutting down DSEi a la Seattle or Prague



Neither of which was actually shut down.

One way of telling the story of what happened in Seattle is that the delegates from Obscuristan and Islandia looked out of the window at the protests, looked at each other and said "'ang on, we're not the only ones pissed at being fucked over by the 'merkins... and we're in here and we have a vote." [Based on a true story from a delegate who I don't have time to look up.]

Fast forward to G8 Gleneagles and Rostock where the powers that be feel the need to launch their whole publicity machine around poverty, debt and climate change. Of course they were still chatting inside about how to screw us all over - but they were also doing masive propaganda work *for* those who oppose them. As a side-effect of activism of the kind derided. 

Politics is *complicated*.


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## bluestreak (Jul 30, 2007)

it takes all sorts.  if everyone protests in their own way and offers a bit of support to those who do things differently it would be nice.

sadly of course, many of us see other peoples tactics as counter-productive and therefore pointless or dangerous.  cue the bickering.


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## In Bloom (Jul 30, 2007)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Point being, I think, that politics shouldn't be confined to one off symbolic actions.  It should be part and parcel of struggles in the community and the workplace and how we relate to our fellow human beings.


Which has what to do with the _entirely_ symbolic pushing and shoving between politicos and police at summits?


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## Blagsta (Jul 30, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Which has what to do with the _entirely_ symbolic pushing and shoving between politicos and police at summits?



It was in reply to tufty, mardybum.


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## nosos (Jul 31, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> But is that a reason to advocate it as a tactic (as DrRingDing was effectively doing)?  Aren't there more useful things we could be getting on with, which, by the very fact that they are more relevant to people's everyday lives would be far more effective in radicalising people, as well as being useful in and of themselves?


Yeah but only a tool would suggest they're mutually exclusive.


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## nosos (Jul 31, 2007)

On a more important note are many urban people going to be at DSEI? I shall be there with a hopefully large group of people from Coventry...


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## In Bloom (Jul 31, 2007)

nosos said:
			
		

> Yeah but only a tool would suggest they're mutually exclusive.


I never said they were mutually exclusive, just that one is unnecessary.

Though I do think that there is only so much you can do.  Nobody has completely limitless time, energy and resources, after all.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 31, 2007)

So we ran an an Anti-DSEi stall on Brick Lane this weekend to raise tank funds, and more importantly raise awareness of the fair.

As regards symbolic actions, and their worth i think the following.

The main point of the hijacker tank, isn't so much about driving it over riot vans and through the doors of the fair.  It's much more about raising awareness of the fact the worlds biggest arms fair happens on our doorsteps.  It's about trying to come up with something that will give people more confidence to come down to the fair and disrupt proceedings.  The more people that come out of the woodwork to come and play, the more it costs to police the fair.  As far as i'm aware the cost to the tax payer has been up to £2M before.

We fully intend to cause as much trouble as possible at the fair, as we believe that the entire enterprise is corrupt and wrong.  Several of the people on our stall this weekend had been flyering in Canning Town (where the fair happens) before coming to our stall.  There is a definate effort to engage with the local people (most of which are hostile to the fair already).  

I don't know if we will shut down the fair, to be honest I doubt it.  However we will make things very uncomfortable and expensive for them.  We will make the fair much more in the public eye, which is the last thing they want.  We will get a tank, and drive it to the fair.  The police and government may freak out a bit when we roll up in our tank, but thank god our tank will be de-commissioned unlike the ones in the fair, which will be sold with the intent of killing lots and lots of people.  Hopefully one day, the powers that be will get their moral compass put right.


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## nosos (Jul 31, 2007)

Yeah whatever my problems with you guys I'd fucking love you to get a tank 

Is the legality of it confirmed though?


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## tufty79 (Jul 31, 2007)

there's a bunch of leedsians including a least one urbanite gonny be there.
the leedsians didn't know about the tank plans. they do now though


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 31, 2007)

nosos said:
			
		

> Yeah whatever my problems with you guys I'd fucking love you to get a tank
> 
> Is the legality of it confirmed though?



In terms of legality it all depends on which type we get etc.

you can buy big APC's which can be insured and driven much like cars (although with armour plating and a big turret and gun), tracked vehicles require rubber pads to make them road legal and an H license (which is about £650 to do the course).

If you get ww2 vehicles they are road tax exempt which makes things cheaper.

gradually we are sorting all of this out in our heads.


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## nosos (Jul 31, 2007)

Is there any possiblity of the police invoking anti-terror legislation even if it's otherwise legal?


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## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 31, 2007)

i'm sure they will try all sorts, 

we have a Hijacker who now works for Liberty, so we are hoping that she will be able to give us advice on that side of things.  Infact we may even try and persuade her to ride in the tank with us.


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## In Bloom (Jul 31, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> we have a Hijacker who now works for Liberty...


I swear, sometimes it's like you people are _trying_ to take all of the challenge out of this.


----------



## sam/phallocrat (Jul 31, 2007)

fuck the politics, I want a t shirt


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Jul 31, 2007)

available online:

http://www.spacehijackers.org/tank

or at INDO (nice pub on whitechapel High St)
or at FREEDOM PRESS (next to the whitechapel gallery)
or on Brick Lane Market (fingers crossed)


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 31, 2007)

i've got til septemberer to get one of these babies, right?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 1, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> or at FREEDOM PRESS (next to the whitechapel gallery)



not for fucking long [gets phone]


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 1, 2007)

wait a second what the fuck do people think they are going to DO with this 'tank'?

Its not actually going to drive at the centre, they might actually get arrested for something more than trespass.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 1, 2007)

we're gonna go on a welf hunt with it


----------



## fogbat (Aug 1, 2007)

He'd only whinge about that, too


----------



## sam/phallocrat (Aug 1, 2007)

I like the sound of welf hunting.  With a gob like his he shouldn't be too hard to track down . . .


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 1, 2007)

sam/phallocrat said:
			
		

> I like the sound of welf hunting.  With a gob like his he shouldn't be too hard to track down . . .


oh the innuendo!

you know where to find me sailor.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 1, 2007)

fogbat said:
			
		

> He'd only whinge about that, too


yeah all i do is whinge really.

Should get on a do something useful innit? Just another armchair anarchist.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 1, 2007)

tufty79 said:
			
		

> we're gonna go on a welf hunt with it


alright i'll give you a clue:

I'll be behind a police line, which you'll have to drive through to catch me.

let the welf hunt begin.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 3, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> i'm sure they will try all sorts,
> 
> we have a Hijacker who now works for Liberty, so we are hoping that she will be able to give us advice on that side of things.  Infact we may even try and persuade her to ride in the tank with us.



and now shes completely exposed you dumb fuck

you guys really dont know what your playing at, with luck your public school japes will stay just that and never present a real threat to the state or capiltalism

but when you play games like this tank thing there is a real threat youll misjudge it and some people will go to jail for a long time and i really dont think youre cut out for that

you need, collectively, to get a grip and engage with the wider movement, cos at the moment you just make a fool of us

but i worry things could get much worse than that


----------



## nosos (Aug 3, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> and now shes completely exposed you dumb fuck


Er, I don't think he was suggesting she's _undercover_. . .


----------



## smokedout (Aug 3, 2007)

maybe not but she could probably do without fit teams turning up outside her place of work

which if my experience of organising for dsei is anything to go by is very likely to happen


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 3, 2007)

Because she is the only girl who works for liberty???? 

And as for engaging with the rest of the movement, we have been along to every Disarm Dsei meeting, trying to help plan the whole thing with everyone.  Not just planning our own action, but rather trying to see how what we are doing can fit in and compliment everything else.

I suppose this fictional public school education we all seem to have had must have gone to our heads, and made us into the sell out media whores we are.


----------



## laptop (Aug 3, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> maybe not but she could probably do without fit teams turning up outside her place of work



TBF, I can think of few places I'd rather the FIT team were, than outside Liberty.

Could keep 'em tied up in court for years...


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 4, 2007)

yeah smokedout versus the space wasters - what are you fighting for, who has the least credibility?


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 4, 2007)

Bloody hell, Tax is getting all cynical and sectarian.  I must be contagious or something


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 4, 2007)

IB - there is a joke in there somewhere i know but...

I'd just like to point out anyway, that i am not very sectarian or even very picky when it comes to what initiatives and activities i like, attend or even organise. Soon there will be no less than 3 summer camps trying to keep the annual activist surge going from Gleneagles: Climate Camp, No Borders, Smash EDO. And you know what? all power to them. They will be at the very least a place for people moving in a similar direction to get together and plan future activity. Global Warming, the Arms Trade and detention centres for migrants are all problems capitalism throughs up, and if people are getting together to try and tackle them in a non-authoritarian, DIY way, then it will probably be a good thing. They are miles away from being able to fully address them, but people will come away with an empowered feeling that they actually can. I think the CC lot have already started to increase debate about global warming.

The space wasters are definitely from the same scene as all that, but essentially treat each issue as a joke, a bit of fun (which i object to - i see none of the actions as being fun) which would instead give people a disempowered, confused idea of what they were capable of. The same goes for the clowns. 

The main thing i'm pissed off with here, is that yet again, the space wasters will be leading people away from a bit of (pointless, yes) unified action with their over-hyped, well advertised stunts. Then going on telly to say they are 'the creative face of protest' - i.e. fuck anyone who is actually taking this seriously.

love n cuddles!
Tax


----------



## smokedout (Aug 4, 2007)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> yeah smokedout versus the space wasters - what are you fighting for, who has the least credibility?



without getting into a bunfight, why the random attack

just curious


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 4, 2007)

The space wasters aren't trying to lead anyone away from unified actions, infact it's the total opposite.

The WHOLE FUCKING POINT  of the tank is to raise awareness about the arms fair, and to encourage people to come down and join in the unified actions.  hence the reason we are running stalls on Brick Lane market each week handing out disarm Dsei leaflets,  and telling people about the fair.

It may seem from a glance on the surface that we treat things as a joke, but spend any time looking at what we do, or speaking to any one of us and you soon realise this isn't the case.  We simply don't think that activism and protesting need to be serious and earnest at all times.  We are trying to encourage people to get involved, see that activism is a fun social activity and that anyone can organise things which can be effective.

True we tend to publicise our events and use the media more than your average wolfie smith, but to be honest I think the activist movement needs to pull it's finger out a bit in this respect.   We are not about simply asking the converted to come and play, but instead trying to engage with people who have not been involved in activism before. Perhaps it's not hardcore enough for some people.  We may not be your bottle throwing, police fighting black block types, we never have been, but to be honest I wouldn't want to be.  

So in short, we are raising money to buy a tank in order to publicise DSEi (something the organisers really don't want).  Hopefully we will get some new faces to the protests, and hopefully we will get a tank and get some outraged pics in the daily mail.  We see this as in collaboration with the other DSEi activists, perhaps you don't, but we do.


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 4, 2007)

Just for one second, let's say Disarm DSEi actually suceeds in shutting the arms fair down.  What the fuck good would that do anyway?  Seriously, do you people think that the international arms trade is contingent on them holding one event in London every year?  What's to stop them just taking it elsewhere?

Really, I don't get what people expect to get out of this at all.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 4, 2007)

> True we tend to publicise our events and use the media more than your average wolfie smith, but to be honest I think the activist movement needs to pull it's finger out a bit in this respect.



and its statements like this that really piss people off

do you think we havent tried to use the media, and been stitched up time and time again, you speak as if you are the first people to attempt to 'make protest fun'

the big difference with yourselves and something like rts or the free party movement is that those events required people to transgress the law, to genuinely recreate space for themselves and to fucking fight to protect it

your no different to thwe twats who dress up as elephants and run the marathon to save the planet, or for that matter geldofs g8 gig - his justifications for that sorry stunt sounded remarkably similiar to yours

the public school/art school sneers are because that is exactly how you come across, doing a conga in canary wharf, big fucking deal, grow up eh, its hardly occupying a motorway for a rave is it

the problem is if you ever manage to accidentally do anything that actually threatens the capitalist hegemony, or even just one small cog in the workings of it believe me you will regret having courted the media in the way you have

but its true the coprorate press do seem to quite like you, have you ever actually questioned why that is?


----------



## smokedout (Aug 4, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Just for one second, let's say Disarm DSEi actually suceeds in shutting the arms fair down.  What the fuck good would that do anyway?  Seriously, do you people think that the international arms trade is contingent on them holding one event in London every year?  What's to stop them just taking it elsewhere?
> 
> Really, I don't get what people expect to get out of this at all.



youd have made a shit soldier in bloom

shall we bomb berlin
ib: nah, whats the point, as if hitler will surrender if we do that

you may be waiting for the proletariat to rise up en masse and overthrow the state, whats actually likely to happen is that small steps and small victories will be paramount in building a movement for the glorious day of revolution you seem to dream of

with regards to dsei, if it was stopped at excel that would be a major victory, it is held at excel for a reason, excel is a fucking fortress and has water access

there are very few other venues in the uk it could be held in

sure it would be moved to another country, but what happens when its stopped there as well

small steps ib, but do not close your eyes to tangible victories

one reason its so hard to build support the movement is because most people are apathetic and see a bunch of hippies in a social centre, or a half assed union meeting as making precisely fuck all difference, to whats the point in getting involved

the anarchist scene has always been at its strongest when   people see that we are achieving results, from the mass arrest actions of the committee of 100 in the late 50/early 60s, to paris 68, the free festival movement in the 70s and 80s and the mass actions in the 90s

one mass action of the scale and imagination of the rts in trafalgar square and we'd be right back on track


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 4, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> youd have made a shit soldier in bloom


Since when did anarchists aspire to the same qualities looked for in soldiers?

And I'd hope anybody with even a lick of class analysis would realise that bombing Berlin would not be a good thing, regardless of who happens to be in power there.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 4, 2007)

it was an analogy, not a v good one admittedly


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 5, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> it was an analogy, not a v good one admittedly


It was a bad beginning to a shit post, as usual.

Even if you shut down DSEi in London, do you really believe that they'd just go for the exact same set up in another venue?  At least try to learn the lessons of the last few years of utterly disastrous anti-G8 protests.

Your problem is that you seem to think some big spectacle is going to "put us back on track", the problem is the focus on spectacle, this tolerance of idiots and adventurists is killing the scene dead.  And good riddance to it.


----------



## chilango (Aug 5, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> one mass action of the scale and imagination of the rts in trafalgar square and we'd be right back on track



I'm not gonna get involeved in this but...

think about the above statement.


----------



## nosos (Aug 5, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> What the fuck good would that do anyway?


Just so people know where you stand: what's your criteria for a political action that does _good_? What's your criteria for political action that's _worthwhile_? What ought people to do rather than _waste_ their time on things like this?


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 5, 2007)

nosos said:
			
		

> Just so people know where you stand: what's your criteria for a political action that does _good_? What's your criteria for political action that's _worthwhile_? What ought people to do rather than _waste_ their time on things like this?


Well, since you asked


----------



## laptop (Aug 5, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> At least try to learn the lessons of the last few years of utterly disastrous anti-G8 protests.



But they've not been utterly disastrous.

They may not have achieved what they thought they wanted to achieve.

They certainly haven't achieved what In Bloom wanted them to achieve... whatever that was.

But the entire script of capitalist summitry is rewritten.

As I noted much earlier in this thread, the PR machines of European governments are doing a part of the necessary publicity work of peoples' movements in the so-called "developing world" for them. As a result of the protests. 

As I noted then, of course I don't believe they're actually sat in there discussing how to end poverty, or curb climate change, or whatever. But the shift in the balance of forces is demonstrated by the fact that they need to pretend.

And the colonialist superpower is left exposed.


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 5, 2007)

Bless.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 6, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> We fully intend to cause as much trouble as possible at the fair



That's utter bollocks to be fair.


----------



## laptop (Aug 6, 2007)

That's it?

The only question remaining about you, In Bloom, then, is which Hitchens you're turning into. 

Or will you go the whole hog and get US citizenship and join the ex-trot neocons?


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 6, 2007)

"ex-trot neocon" LOL


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 6, 2007)

Most of the youth's culture these days is pathetic 6th form wank.

Even the hippies in the 60's knew how to kick off.

This is cringworthy.

A stall in Brick Lane!?

Like Nathen Barley knows how to riot


----------



## laptop (Aug 6, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> "ex-trot neocon" LOL



I should have said that I'm not alleging that In Bloom has been a trot. I have no idea.

But there is a well-defined trajectory from ex-revolutionary defeatism, slagging off all who do not share one's pure tactical judgements, directly to the far right.

In case the above "" was an expression of geniune ignorance:

Trotskyism to Anachronism: The Neoconservative Revolution (Foreign Affairs)

TROTSKY, STRAUSS, AND THE NEOCONS (antiwar.com)


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 6, 2007)

Trotsky was a brainy bloke but an extemely devious one.

Holding his tactically written articles as some sort of bible is fucking dumb.

Understand why the man does what he does not what he wants you to think.


----------



## free spirit (Aug 6, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> and its statements like this that really piss people off
> 
> do you think we havent tried to use the media, and been stitched up time and time again, you speak as if you are the first people to attempt to 'make protest fun'
> 
> ...





> one mass action of the scale and imagination of the rts in trafalgar square and we'd be right back on track



smoked out - if you're going to hold RTS up as an example of  what we should be doing / what was good, you probably ought to remember that the RTS ethos was to encourage and support autonomous groups to come up with their own creative ideas for protest and act autonomously to make their ideas happen so that on the big protest days like J18 etc there'd be loads of autonomous actions happening as well as the big RTS... autonomous actions just like those that the space hijackers are doing.

So IMO the space hijackers are acting entirely within the spirit and ethos encouraged by the RTS people.

I doubt I'll make it down for DSEI, but if I did I'd be with the space hijackers all the way as they seem to be the group with the balls and imagination to try something different, and the organisational experience to at least make a decent attempt at pulling it off.

As for the media thing, I pretty much agree with BP's take on it, the anarchist / autonomous movement from RTS onwards has been shooting itself in the foot everytime with it's shit attitude to the media. Yes I know the media can't be trusted to portray the movement / protest in the way we want it to be portrayed, and there's been loads of bullshit from the media over the years, but if we never give them our side of the story then it's no real surprise that their reports are biased against us / only really give the police view etc.

At the end of the day the mass media is the main source of information for the vast majority of the UK public, how we're ever supposed to build support within the wider community with a policy of not dealing with the mass media is beyond me. Yes newsletters, indymedia, flyers, posters etc are all good, but you're only ever going to reach a few tens of thousands max via these routes.

I remember when I got nicked at one of the maydays a few years back, going to the rts legal support place when I got out, and they actually prevented me from talking to any of the journalists that were outside to put my side of the story across, why I was there, why I'd got nicked etc. Then the next day my name was listed in 3 national newspapers & I was front page of the local paper anyway with only the police side of the story given coz we don't talk to the media. (sorry slight derail)

I also remember the dissent media policy for the G8, and the bollocks about nobody being able to speak on behalf of dissent type stuff, when there were journalists camped outside the camp crying out for us to give them outside of the story (not a criticism of the dissent media team who did a great job under the odd restrictions of not being able to call news conferences, make official statements, issue official press releases without it getting approved unanimously be each individual group involved etc). Not really surprising the press didn't really manage to get our message across / explain what the protests were about IMO.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 6, 2007)

This protest smacks of self-indulgent liberal folly.


----------



## laptop (Aug 6, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> Trotsky was a brainy bloke but an extemely devious one.
> 
> Holding his tactically written articles as some sort of bible is fucking dumb.
> 
> Understand why the man does what he does not what he wants you to think.



Ah. May I guess that ethanol has intervened - or a substance affecting short-term or long-term memory? 

I hold no brief for Trotsky. He was as much an authoritarian cunt as any other Bolshevik. 

I was merely pointing out that a significant cadre of neocons used to be Trotsky's followers - dissillusioned workerists - and I my fears that our workerist correspondent may be headed the same way.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 6, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> Ah. May I guess that ethanol has intervened



Let's say it's been a long day.


----------



## free spirit (Aug 6, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> This protest smacks of self-indulgent liberal folly.


possibly, but surely the more hardcore contingent could use the innevitable diversion of police focus created by the space hijackers arrival in a tank to their advantage if they weren't so busy slagging them off for actually having the balls to do something.

not that I think the tank's gonna get anywhere near DSEI unless the space hijackers have a cloaking device, but at least they're trying and I'd fucking love it if they did get it there


----------



## In Bloom (Aug 6, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> That's it?
> 
> The only question remaining about you, In Bloom, then, is which Hitchens you're turning into.
> 
> Or will you go the whole hog and get US citizenship and join the ex-trot neocons?


Yep, you got me down pat.  If anybody wants me, I'll be cashing this check from MI6.

I just think it's cute the way you get all excited over a bit of bullshit pontificating by polliticians about poverty.  I mean really, who gives a shit?


----------



## bluestreak (Aug 6, 2007)

DrRingDing said:
			
		

> This protest smacks of self-indulgent liberal folly.




don't they all. protests are for wankers.  everyone knows the ballot is the only way.


----------



## nosos (Aug 6, 2007)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Well, since you asked


That doesn't answer my questions though does it? I asked _what's your criteria for a political action that does good? What's your criteria for political action that's worthwhile? What ought people to do rather than waste their time on things like this?_ - are you saying workplace disputes are the only worthwhile political action? If so, why?


----------



## blamblam (Aug 6, 2007)

you know, I almost wondered for second why I didn't look at u75 p&p any more.


----------



## nosos (Aug 6, 2007)

*Better?*

Cock


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 8, 2007)

free spirit said:
			
		

> As for the media thing, I pretty much agree with BP's take on it, the anarchist / autonomous movement from RTS onwards has been shooting itself in the foot everytime with it's shit attitude to the media. Yes I know the media can't be trusted to portray the movement / protest in the way we want it to be portrayed, and there's been loads of bullshit from the media over the years, but if we never give them our side of the story then it's no real surprise that their reports are biased against us / only really give the police view etc.
> 
> At the end of the day the mass media is the main source of information for the vast majority of the UK public, how we're ever supposed to build support within the wider community with a policy of not dealing with the mass media is beyond me


Bang on.

Wheter you like it or not, if you want to change peoples attitudes to _anything_ in this country they have to be told via the newpapers and TV.  If you won't think about trying to get them on side you can forget it.


----------



## DrRingDing (Aug 8, 2007)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> don't they all. protests are for wankers.  everyone knows the ballot is the only way.



Ease yourself Mr Bluestreak.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 10, 2007)

from todays independent:

_*Tanks for the memories*

 On 11 September, vanloads of Scotland Yard's baton-jabbing finest will invade London's Docklands for the arms fair. Some 20,000 visitors, camouflaged and suited, will thrill one another with the size of their ballistics.

The "Space Hijackers" anarchist protest group has decided to take on the arms dealers at their own game. At previous arms fairs they have handed out prosthetic limbs (effect of land mines) and sex toys ("make love, not war"). Instead, this year, the protesters are buying their own tank. They have set up an online Blue Peter-style "tank-o-meter" and have already collected £2,000. Says one protester: "We need five grand for a Russian T-72. Two grand buys us a Second World War armoured personnel carrier with big guns on top. You can get them off men in fields in Kent." He adds: "We will only take our foot off the accelerator if a policeman puts a flower in our cannon, or if the police stage a sitdown protest in front of our tank."_


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 15, 2007)

OK quick update,

we were in Time Out this week:







we have currently raised about £3500  which is nearly enough for one of these:

http://www.milweb.net/classifieds/classpics/33878.jpg


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 15, 2007)

yay! well done! x


----------



## xes (Aug 15, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> OK quick update,
> 
> we were in Time Out this week:
> 
> ...


Are you trying to tell me that I could afford to buy a tank?! wow.


must.resist.urge.to.buy.armoured.motor.and.use.money.to.pay.debts....


----------



## Fruitloop (Aug 15, 2007)

same here


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 15, 2007)

the saracen we're looking at is about £5000 including tax, there may be cheaper ones though.  A few parties, more stalls on brick lane, and some t-shirt sales and we'll be there.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 16, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> the saracen we're looking at is about £5000 including tax



well i did slag you off, but every man has a price


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Aug 16, 2007)

fair fux to the time out piece, i have no objection you being a 'creative protest group' or 'activists' - thats fine, i hope you have fun.

My only objection is if people perceive it as anarchism (like the indy article says) or connected to anarchist activity cos, as i'm sure you'd be the first to admit, you can't really provide that role and wouldn't want to


----------



## TAE (Aug 16, 2007)

xes said:
			
		

> must.resist.urge.to.buy.armoured.motor.and.use.money.to.pay.debts....


Be strong !


----------



## winjer (Aug 23, 2007)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> My only objection is if people perceive it as anarchism (like the indy article says) or connected to anarchist activity cos, as i'm sure you'd be the first to admit, you can't really provide that role and wouldn't want to


Because anarchist activity can only take place within the workplace, and cultural commodification is too complicated for you to understand?

If not, I await your alternative definition of anarchism, which excludes SH activities and /or evidence that SH support the State.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 24, 2007)

UPDATE!

We are going to have a look at a bloody big armoured vehicle tomorrow!


----------



## selamlar (Aug 29, 2007)

Word on the street is you have got one.  Confirmation?


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Aug 29, 2007)

Hmmm

careless talk costs lives  

can't confirm anything at the mo, it's all looking quite exciting though.


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 6, 2007)

well done!


----------



## joevsimp (Sep 6, 2007)

*bites nails*
i might come down to dsei


----------



## Boogie Boy (Sep 13, 2007)

So what did this ultimately achieve?

BB


----------



## laptop (Sep 13, 2007)

It gave BB and probably one other poster a chance to feel superior for not doing anything at all about the arms trade.


----------



## Boogie Boy (Sep 13, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> It gave BB and probably one other poster a chance to feel superior for not doing anything at all about the arms trade.



Really? 

There speaks the voice of someone who knows fuck all about which they purport to speak.

BB


----------



## winjer (Sep 14, 2007)

Boogie Boy said:
			
		

> There speaks the voice of someone who knows fuck all about which they purport to speak.


Hardly, laptop knows a lot about not doing anything at all about the arms trade, you should see his flyers


----------



## winjer (Sep 14, 2007)

Boogie Boy said:
			
		

> So what did this ultimately achieve?






			
				A spacehijacker said:
			
		

> In the end it was a very expensive publicity stunt, but to be honest that was the plan from the start. DSEi hardly ever gets any publicity, which is why the protests (which still gather £4M of police) are quite small. The more people that know about it, the less likely they are to hold it in the same location in the future. If you phone excel they will say they are "closed for redecoration" whilst the fair is on. This year, they had to have a spokesperson on BBC news at ten explaining about their moral position, there were reports about them on Sky, in the independent, Evening standard, Time Out, Times and loads of other papers.


DSEi 2009 is 8-11 September, location TBC. If you've got a better plan, let's hear it now.


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Sep 14, 2007)

Boogie Boy said:
			
		

> So what did this ultimately achieve?
> 
> BB




Well it certainly raised the public profile of the arms fair, hopefully drawing more attention to it, and asking people to question why the worlds largest arms fair happens in East London.  

There were articles in The Evening Standard, The Independent, The Times, The London Paper, Time Out and a piece on the BBC news at 10 in which not only then (accidentally) had footage of a Hijacker saying "we'll sell arms to anyone with no conscience" underneath him was text saying he was actually from DSEi, but also they had a real spokesperson from DSEi having to answer the moral position of what they were doing (unheard of before).

all in all, I would say it was a success. We also managed to show that £4M of policing was thoroughly useless at spotting our second massive tank rolling up to the worlds largest arms fair!


----------



## nosos (Sep 14, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> It gave BB and probably one other poster a chance to feel superior for not doing anything at all about the arms trade.


That was pretty much my thought as well.


----------



## citydreams (Sep 14, 2007)

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/09/380755.html


----------



## Boogie Boy (Sep 16, 2007)

winjer said:
			
		

> DSEi 2009 is 8-11 September, location TBC. If you've got a better plan, let's hear it now.




Lol, honestly Winjer, thou dost surely jest!

BB


----------



## smokedout (Sep 17, 2007)

the last dsei i was involved in (2004) achieved far more publicity, making the front page of the evening standard and we didnt have a tank

in fact from the scans i made of the mainstream press the day after dsei, a few mentioned thearms fair, not one mentioned the tank

learnt anything about the corporate press yet?


----------



## winjer (Sep 17, 2007)

smokedout said:
			
		

> the last dsei i was involved in (2004) achieved far more publicity


I don't remember the Evening Standard doing a frontpage in 2005, maybe you mean 2003? It's not like much happened despite about three times the people being involved. I think CAAT's triumphalism has a lot to answer for.



> in fact from the scans i made of the mainstream press the day after dsei, a few mentioned thearms fair, not one mentioned the tank







http://news.independent.co.uk/people/pandora/article2950312.ece
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/business/2007/09/13/122374/Arms-trade.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6990000/newsid_6990100/6990156.stm?bw=bb&mp=rm&news=1
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article2423991.ece
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2007/09/all-the-fun-of-.html

Plus Evening Standard, London Lite...



> learnt anything about the corporate press yet?


_#johnny can't read and johnny can't rite_


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## Bristly Pioneer (Sep 18, 2007)

Double page article on the arms fair in this week's time out, from the Hijackers embedded journalists.


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## Taxamo Welf (Sep 22, 2007)

er, smokedhaddock is actually right on this one ginjer: other DSEIs have had far mnore coverage.

Your tank got loads of coverage true, the fair and the protests did not.

as for my advice for 2009 - knock this shit off til we are likely to actually achieve something positive mate. There's loads more important things to do.

and i'll say it to you when i see you in person, in the interests of comradely debate, so don't bother with that armchair bollocks.


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## winjer (Sep 24, 2007)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> er, smokedhaddock is actually right on this one ginjer: other DSEIs have had far mnore coverage.
> 
> Your tank got loads of coverage true, the fair and the protests did not.


Which is exactly what I just said 



> as for my advice for 2009 - knock this shit off til we are likely to actually achieve something positive mate. There's loads more important things to do.


Given your sub-Bonehead position on borders & immigration, and that your idea of important activity tends to make CrimethInc look like a popular insurgency by comparison, fuck your advice.

I'm still waiting for your explanation of why SH aren't anarchists.


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## nosos (Sep 24, 2007)

A self-selecting performance collective with a tendancy to speak on behalf of the entirety of a movement that massively predates them sort of pushes the boundries a bit imo


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## winjer (Sep 24, 2007)

nosos said:
			
		

> A self-selecting performance collective with a tendancy to speak on behalf of the entirety of a movement that massively predates them sort of pushes the boundries a bit imo


Is this about Autonomous Class War?


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## nosos (Sep 24, 2007)

Eh?


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## winjer (Sep 24, 2007)

That makes two of us then.


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## nosos (Sep 24, 2007)

What the fuck are you talking about?


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## winjer (Sep 24, 2007)

Your post. What the fuck are you talking about?


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## nosos (Sep 24, 2007)

Which bit? That the space hijackers are a self-selecting group, that they a tendancy to speak on behalf of the 'movement' (or at least come across like they are), or that said 'movement' preadates them?


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## winjer (Sep 25, 2007)

All of the above, what group isn't self-selecting? And what movement have the Spacehijackers ever even attempted to speak on behalf of?


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 3, 2007)

winjer said:
			
		

> Which is exactly what I just said
> 
> Given your sub-Bonehead position on borders & immigration, and that your idea of important activity tends to make CrimethInc look like a popular insurgency by comparison, fuck your advice.


well done dickhead, you've just lost  someone who was a) sympathetic and 
b) friendly.

Don't even bother approaching me in future.

what on earth is your problem? Did a few criticisms of SH really upset you that much?

Another nutter who'd rather have an enemy over a friend.


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## Raw SslaC (Oct 3, 2007)

Hi all, I find it hard to accept SH as politically involved in a movement as such. I think the events they organise is more about themselves than the issues they say they are promoting - self-promoting is the word what I'm looking for. I saw a guy from SH on a 3 min doc on C4. It was about the midnight cricket match with city boys. he came across as extremely liberal in the sense that he wants to "break down division" between capitalists and the rest of us. That was his sentiments. It annoys me because they were described as anarchists. As far I am concerned, anarchists throughout history seek to destroy not comprise with the institutions and power structures of capitalism. 

Secondly, the issue of such an 'subversive' group being funded by the Arts Council (like CIRCA) and supported in their latest northern venture by Sunderland Council. How does this relate to anything except furthering the SH.

Thirdly, unlike UHC in Manc who are political people but produce art/design/communication - SH are arty people who produce stage managed political protests. I prefer the former when it comes to the mix of art/culture and political intervention. 

Maybe the money for the tank would have been better spent on the No Borders Camp and/or some other venture. I always think those who have access to cash should always try spread the wealth. 

Al


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 3, 2007)

Thank you Raw. 

How much closer to home do you want to hear it from Winjer?

Jesus i can't get over how out of order your last post was. The last time you saw me was on a typical arrestable direct action at climate camp - an action that i and 6 others initiated several years ago and spent 2 years in court for. How the fuck can you see me as someone who shouts abuse from the sidelines? For my sins i one of the tiny few who actually does the "direct action" "protest" _and_ the political organisation thing.

Alas i am sub-fascist to you!


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## laptop (Oct 3, 2007)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> he wants to "break down division" between capitalists and the rest of us.



That wouldn't have been sarcasm. Oh no. It would be dangerous to deploy sarcasm when there are people out there entirely impervious to it.


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## Raw SslaC (Oct 4, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> That wouldn't have been sarcasm. Oh no. It would be dangerous to deploy sarcasm when there are people out there entirely impervious to it.



It was very much portrayed as the act of playing cricket with some city boys was some how undermining capitalism by breaking downs the barriers.


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## free spirit (Oct 4, 2007)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> It was very much portrayed as the act of playing cricket with some city boys was some how undermining capitalism by breaking downs the barriers.


Does this revolutionising stuff always have to be so serious though? 

even the boys in ww1 managed to have a game of footie in no-mans land, surely the space hijackers are allowed the odd game of anticap vs capitalist cricket without the thought police jumping on them.

or must we all go round being miserable fuckers until the revolution delivers us into the anarchist utopia?


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## In Bloom (Oct 4, 2007)

free spirit said:
			
		

> Does this revolutionising stuff always have to be so serious though?


Do you know what, fuck it, I'm just going to say it.  Yes.

This isn't a fucking game.


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## In Bloom (Oct 4, 2007)

winjer said:
			
		

> Given your [Taxamo's] sub-Bonehead position on borders & immigration


Can I have some of your crack?

Fucking hell.


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## Raw SslaC (Oct 4, 2007)

free spirit said:
			
		

> Does this revolutionising stuff always have to be so serious though?
> 
> even the boys in ww1 managed to have a game of footie in no-mans land, surely the space hijackers are allowed the odd game of anticap vs capitalist cricket without the thought police jumping on them.
> 
> or must we all go round being miserable fuckers until the revolution delivers us into the anarchist utopia?



But this IS what the SH are, it wasn't just a single "event" to have a bit of fun. Hence my weariness  of associating them to political action. I have no problems with SH per se, just don't put out that somehow this IS a political/social struggle its not.


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 4, 2007)

free spirit said:
			
		

> Does this revolutionising stuff always have to be so serious though?
> 
> even the boys in ww1 managed to have a game of footie in no-mans land, surely the space hijackers are allowed *the odd game *of anticap vs capitalist cricket without the thought police jumping on them.
> 
> or must we all go round being miserable fuckers until the revolution delivers us into the anarchist utopia?



its not the odd game though is it, its all a game. I'm in what is apparently the most boring dull as shite anarcho group cos it will at some point try and talk to you about communism and publishes serious political commentary. Last weekend we put on a squat party so hilariously punk it had _a urinal made of traffic cones and an oil drum_ the month before than we were on picket lines with posties, and we have also even _dressed up in outifts_   for a very popular anti-military stunt. There isn't silly wing and a serious wing, its the same people. Its also massively helpful doing the more fun stuff cos then whenever anyone starts thinking that anarchism is a wacky lifestyle full of pranks and parties you can step in to set them straight - which we couldn't do if we just boycotted anything that might look a bit naff.

I will outline our attitude towards actions and activities like the SH *once and for all* forthwith.

Right, what follows is an assessment of a big mixed action which was essentially an attempt at a old school 90's mass action a la RTS but this time about the war. It may be specific to that in some ways but it lays out a lot general points about our attitudes to this sort of thing. You will notice if you read it, that this is NOT A DISMISSAL of the action but constructive criticism.


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## Taxamo Welf (Oct 4, 2007)

*
Reflections On Sackparliament*

On Monday October the 9th AF members from different regions participated in the Sack Parliament action. The action was disastrous; chaotic, confusing and worst of all dangerous. Almost 40 people were arrested under the new exclusion zone laws, and one independent camera man was hospitalized by a police charge. It was both demoralizing for the participants and confusing for the public .. in many ways it represented the worst of ..activism...

AF members were involved out of solidarity with the organisers and the intentions of the action, and despite what happened on the day we think the idea behind it was justified and creative. We do not think this trend of ..direct action.. is particularly important, but reserve our criticisms for the planning and on-the-ground actions that day.

*The Ideas Behind Sackparliament*

Sackparliament was an initiative that came out of a group of students and anti-authoritarians who had attempted direct actions on the Lebanon war demo..s over the summer. Whilst we think their politics are so wide you could throw an aircraft carrier through them, their actions have been completely justified. They correctly see the anti-war movement as a mass movement. At times this has been undeniable, with several polls returning a majority opposed to the war in Iraq, and the numbers on the streets on February 15th 2003 were the biggest ever. The ..Day X.. actions, combined with developments like the school students strikes, showed a potential move towards mass direct action. The most important thing anarchists could have done was try and move the ideas of the anti-war movement away from the ideas of lobbying .. which criticises only this particular government, only this particular war .. and pushed for a real demonstration .. a demonstration of the will and strength of the people united in defiance.

British anarchism was going through a time of identity crisis when the war broke. Burned out from the development of Reclaim The Streets and radical ecology into the anticapitalist movement of Seattle and Genoa, those behind RTS and the Mayday riots were seeing fewer people turn up to their events .. and theirs was movement that relied entirely on events. Many young anarchists who would have taken the helm of a new movement saw little point in activism from a class perspective. Subsequently, there was no fusion of the anticapitalist movement and its tactics with the anti-war movement, apart from at the top where it never counted - in the NGO's, Charities and socialist parties. In a lot of ways it's real shame.

Event based activism is pointless when the problems of capitalism and the class system need a long term opposition from the people they fuck over - the working class. Its capitalism that causes wars, and it's the working class that get sent to fight and die after all. Given the choice between a political strike at an arms factory and a non-violent activist blockade of the arms factory, we would want a strike. But given the choice between the blockade and sweet fuck all, we support a blockade. If the war is a class issue, support its opponents as long as they are not endorsing a political party or another form of dominance.

On this basis then, Sackparliament was something we were willing to engage with. Mostly on the strength of one of their last actions .. leafleting children being taken to an army recruitment fair with information like ..25% of rough sleepers used to be in the army... This is engaging with normal people at the point of contact with the war, where it counts. Also, kicking off outside the American Embassy on the Lebanon demo..s was justified, if a bit stupid without the numbers. Its more something you hope would happen anyway rather than something you call for!

All sackparliament propaganda was good stuff, when you consider its purpose. It was meant to unite all those against the war rather than anarchists and lefties without coming across as lobbying. It also was well produced and had a cracking sense of humour; one flier was a spoof tax return for the government from ..Inland Revenge... All MPs received a spoof P45 on the day too.

Unsurprisingly we think that no matter how good the prop was, there is not much point in isolated stunts rather than trying to build long term resistance, and we do not consider the two paths to be exclusive. Stunts and actions are fine if they feed into the wider struggle, and sackparliament might have.


(put hands on your head and lie down) *On The Ground*

What was seriously neglected was planning. Similarly to mayday 2003, a map with targets had been distributed and people were expected to plan actions themselves. In this case the targets were different entrances to Parliament, and the plan was for different groups to blockade different ones and delay or cancel the opening session that day. Beyond this hope, nothing was done. According to the map, the situationist inspired Space Hijackers were supposed to provide counseling for the newly sacked MPs and someone else was doing a soundsystem. Neither were in evidence on the day. Considering 500 people were not able to get a portable soundsystem into Trafalgar square this mayday and that there hasn..t been a proper soundsystem on a London action since J18 in 1999, it doesn..t seem very likely one was even secured for this venture.

The ..antiauthoritarian block.. were highly organised, meeting at several different points around London to ensure there were no tails and catching a bus into Parliament Square to avoid getting stopped on the street. Entrance to the square had been looked into properly and other routes assessed and rejected. So, we all pile out of the bus, hats and scarfs on and then... And then? Nothing. Nobody had a plan, and the original idea - to somehow blockade several entrances, we assume with our bodies .. totally contradicted the call for an antiauthoritarian (read: black) block. The block had a bit of a rush for the road, 40 people faced down 800 police, and lost. Pushed back into the square, the protestors were surrounded by police. Snatch squads were sent in, and scuffles broke out as the block tried to defend people. Eventually, if they weren..t arrested outright, those in the pen had their details taken and were charged with illegal demonstration.

*Suggestions*
- Tell people what you think they should do. If you want people to nonviolently blockade things, say so. Marks on maps mean nothing.

- Lead from the front. Anyone who is not a plastic anarchist is happy to take advice from someone with better knowledge; if you called the event, that..s you.

- ..Fill the Jails.. tactics do not work for issues like this. As anarchists, we generally try to avoid jails full stop.

- Get an idea of the numbers attending. Nobody had any idea. Someone speculated ..they..ll be lucky to get over 1000... The event got about 50.

- If you doubt the turnout, call it off .. or make more appropriate plan.

- Get an idea of who is attending .. and what they are capable of. If you have personal guarantees from people to attend, you can assign roles and make better plans.

- Most importantly: Have an exit strategy. Planning ended with the arrival of the block. How does that get us home and dry?

In the end, the gap between the potential and the reality of the action would make anybody feel pretty negative. It was well known that the police were going overboard for this since the Friday article in The Standard; plans should have changed. Or have been made in the first place.

Its important to be honest with yourselves when planning a confrontational action .. which this was, being illegal. Rather than just ..not condemning.. different tactics, think what you actually do want: do you want a riot or a stunt? There is nothing anarchic about having no plan.

*That's All Folks*

The authors acknowledge the time effort and money put into the Monday, and hope the organisers find ways of making actions like this work in future, and most importantly linking them to long term issues. _See you there._


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## absolutely (Oct 8, 2007)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> Maybe the money for the tank would have been better spent on the No Borders Camp and/or some other venture. I always think those who have access to cash should always try spread the wealth.
> 
> Al



But it sounded like the money was _raised_ for the tank action, rather than  from some big pot of gold that the SH are hoarding.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Oct 9, 2007)

The money was raised specifically for the tank action, and still is being raised, seeing as the second tank trashed our overdrafts.  

As regards the hijackers and the wider anarchist movement, my feelings are like this.  The hijackers is a group who meet up to plan actions around political (and some less political) themes or events.  There isn't a leader, the inspiration for the actions and the responsibility for carrying them out comes randomly from the group.  Anyone can suggest an idea, and once it's been knocked about by people it either gets done or rejected.  The projects themselves aim to question authority, actively change heirarchy within our city, ridicule the powers that be and promote a society where people take an active role in their cities without having to go via the government or some other cronies to take action.  Sounds quite a bit anarchist to me.

The DSEi tank project was, first and foremost, about raising awareness of the fair, and getting a load of press down to cover it as we felt that this was something which would raise the profile and hopefully raise numbers at the protests.  On the first part we were pretty successful, the second perhaps less so.  Obviously it was a big and shallow PR stunt, but that was exactly what we had planned.  We mentioned this in all of the Disarm DSEi meetings (90% of which there were at least a few hijackers present) and people seemed to be pretty warm to the idea.

Now maybe our politics isn't always at the very front of what we are up to, with the cricket for example it just looks like a jolly good jape for all.  But there actually quite interesting nights.  The fact that a bunch of people with anarchist ideals end up arguing their position with the capitalists and all manner of other passers by during the night makes for a really interesting debate.  The capitalists often end up being quite shy and embarrased about what they do, we always end up with the support of the general public, and people perhaps begin to question their stance on things a bit.  Secondly the cricket is as much about public space as confronting the capitalist pig dogs.  The police always turn up looking to kick people off, and often end up in huge arguments with everyone (public and capitalists included) as to why we shouldn't be allowed to play in an open space in the middle of the night.  People begin to actively defend the space as theirs and question the authority of the police.  All steps in the right direction, i think.

this is turning into a bit of rant so i'll wind up.  Basically, as I see it, fair enough we are not the most serious part of the activist movement, but we are a part none the less, and the balance between everyone in it is what makes things exciting.  Our actions work with, not instead of, everything else that is happening.  We're looking to try out different tactics and perhaps inspire other people to try things as without change our movement gets stagnant.  However we're not looking to lead or front anyone else.  Consider us the naughty kids in the corner who've eaten too many sweets.


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## detective-boy (Oct 9, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> Anyone can suggest an idea, and once it's been knocked about by people *it either gets done or rejected*.  The projects themselves aim to question authority, actively change heirarchy within our city, ridicule the powers that be and promote a society where people take an active role in their cities *without having to go via the government or some other cronies to take action.*


Is there not a bit of a contradiction here ... something is only done if the group agree ... that's, er, just like how society tries to work, but on a smaller (and hence more responsive) scale ... and they are _your_ cronies ...


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## Bristly Pioneer (Oct 9, 2007)

not really no, 

things get done if we agree, not some semi elected body only partially accountable every 4 years.  We don't have a management council or board of directors or such.

it perhaps is just how society _tries_ (but fails) to work, seeing as MY elected cronies seem to do very little of what I would like them to do, infact often quite the opposite.


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## Boogie Boy (Oct 9, 2007)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Is there not a bit of a contradiction here ... something is only done if the group agree ... that's, er, just like how society tries to work, but on a smaller (and hence more responsive) scale ... and they are _your_ cronies ...



Is this an attempt at juvenile provocation or are you just being wilfully stupid?

BB


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## detective-boy (Oct 9, 2007)

Boogie Boy said:
			
		

> Is this an attempt at juvenile provocation or are you just being wilfully stupid?


Neither.  It's a question.

And it has been kindly answered by Bristly Pioneer, thank you.


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## detective-boy (Oct 9, 2007)

Bristly Pioneer said:
			
		

> it perhaps is just how society _tries_ (but fails) to work, seeing as MY elected cronies seem to do very little of what I would like them to do, infact often quite the opposite.


It's a question of scale, isn't it?  A small group is able to consult everyone (literally) and, if everyone has a view, to hear everyone and then everyone knows their view has at least been heard ... but you don't have to get very big before that simply becomes impracticable and reprsentatives have to be elected ... and then people start complaining about "their" representatives not representing their views (when the best they could ever do is try and represent a majority view).  This applies to _everything_, not just politics (as anyone who has ever tried to be the group representative at anything will agree, I'm sure!).

I've not really got any major point, by the way, it just struck me as interesting that you described as "quite a bit anarchist" seemed to be of the same template as "ordinary" society.


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## Bristly Pioneer (Oct 9, 2007)

fair enough, but then again the idea of what we are up to (and I wouldn't want to speak for other anarchist groups) is that things spread laterally rather than vertically.  So instead of elected representatives and higher commitees ending up as governments, we have lots and lots of smaller groups acting in their local surroundings.  Smaller groups organising themselves rather than reporting back to a central command, or recieving their decisions from above.

In my view anarchism isn't always that different from everyday life in a lot of occasions.  It's when things get big and organised (by governments, companies, institutions etc) that things get shite.  

Bus Stops are a perfect example in my mind.  Currently at Tottenham court Rd, if you want to get on a bus on a friday night you have to brave the mob and fight your way on.  This represents capitalism perfectly, as soon as government control isn't present there is a rabid fight amongst people to get to the top of the pile.

On the other hand we used to have these things called bus stop queues.  People would wait in line depending on who came first, if an old lady or someone needed to get on before, they would step aside and let them on.  That's much more anarchist, collectively organising ourselves depending on who needed things the most.


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## winjer (Nov 22, 2007)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> How much closer to home do you want to hear it from Winjer?


That's funny, cause it was Raw's description of your position on No Borders that I was referring to in the earlier post, perhaps he's misinformed?



> For my sins i one of the tiny few who actually does the "direct action" "protest" _and_ the political organisation thing.


But never from a position of honest engagement (c.f. the libcom thread you posted up after that Lebanon assembly last year), so why bother?


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## winjer (Nov 22, 2007)

Raw SslaC said:
			
		

> I think the events they organise is more about themselves than the issues they say they are promoting - self-promoting is the word what I'm looking for.


To what end? If it's all about self-promotion, where has it got the SH?



> Thirdly, unlike UHC in Manc who are political people but produce art/design/communication - SH are arty people who produce stage managed political protests.


'stage managed' - by who?



> I always think those who have access to cash should always try spread the wealth.


What access to cash? The money for the tank was donated specifically for that, are you suggesting we should have lied about what it was going to be used for?


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## Fruitloop (Nov 22, 2007)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> It's a question of scale, isn't it?  A small group is able to consult everyone (literally) and, if everyone has a view, to hear everyone and then everyone knows their view has at least been heard ... but you don't have to get very big before that simply becomes impracticable and reprsentatives have to be elected ... and then people start complaining about "their" representatives not representing their views (when the best they could ever do is try and represent a majority view).  This applies to _everything_, not just politics (as anyone who has ever tried to be the group representative at anything will agree, I'm sure!).
> 
> I've not really got any major point, by the way, it just struck me as interesting that you described as "quite a bit anarchist" seemed to be of the same template as "ordinary" society.



The anarchist ideal is that people should make their own decisions in the matters that effect them, not that they should elect representatives to make centralised decisions on behalf of everybody. The problem with the present system is that you only get one vote every few years (which hardly does justice to the many different issues that government decides on), the policies of the parties with a serious chance at power are almost identical on all important matters, and once in Westminster they are more influenced by private lobbying and the party whip system than the interests of their constituents. Also most people in an FPP system live in safe seats where the same thing happens regardless of whether they turn up or not, and the politicians efforts are in the main concentrated on narrow demographics within a few key swing marginals.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 22, 2007)

I was actually very concerned to see your treatment at the hands of thr filth recently, and expected to be able to make things up with you forthwith. However after months and months, you are back here to argue with me, of all people, when the points i have made are coming from all corners.

If you don't want to bury the hatchet then fine, you are a ridiculous person 


so lets get on with it:




			
				winjer said:
			
		

> That's funny, cause it was Raw's description of your position on No Borders that I was referring to in the earlier post, perhaps he's misinformed?



No Raw is not misinformed on me, but i'm talking about his opinion of the spacehijackers posted here. In writing, right there. Lets talk about that.



> But never from a position of honest engagement (c.f. the libcom thread you posted up after that Lebanon assembly last year), so why bother?



wtf this means i have no idea. I've supported countless silly stunts way more than a lot of the people who are fully behind them have, what you mean by honest... FUCK IT. Just read what i fucking wrote on sackparliament above, jesus.

My opinion on No Borders is its a shit name, and i don't agree with putting forward open borders as a solution to fuck all under capitalism. I believe that communities should manage themselves, which means they should have a say in hopusing and resource allocation - not the state, not the local council and definitely not a group of lentil weavers shouting NO BORDERS NO NATIONS at them. I have the utmost support for the immigrant defence side of NB, that is crucial. I think the name however is misleading. You want to organise, not destroy: you don't start a group at your workplace called No Money do you?

This position will be laid out in full in article soon.

Raw would not have described this as 'sub-bonehead'. A bonehead is a nazi skinhead. This person believes in white supremacy. How the fuck thats related to what i have said, which is essentially communalist anarchism, is a question whoever administers the medication you're on can answer.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 22, 2007)

winjer said:
			
		

> But never from a position of honest engagement (c.f. the libcom thread you posted up after that Lebanon assembly last year), so why bother?



I spent 2 years in and out of court for a lock on NVDA against an israeli import company. That followed a week spent on hunger strike to try and get some attention to a hunger strike going on in Israeli jails. That followed 3 months spent when most of my mates were interailing and getting stoned in amsterdam spent doing NVDA in the West Bank.

But never from a position of honest engagement! I did it all so i could laugh about later on libcom of course!

you really are fucking dick.


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## winjer (Nov 22, 2007)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> I was actually very concerned to see your treatment at the hands of thr filth recently, and expected to be able to make things up with you forthwith. However after months and months, you are back here to argue with me, of all people, when the points i have made are coming from all corners.


I'm raising this with you because I can never understand the disconnect between what you say in person, and what you subsequently describe on here, libcom, etc. I totally fail to understand your antipathy towards SH, I can only assume that you have the same misconceptions about who is involved as Raw (cf. 'arty people').



> Just read what i fucking wrote on sackparliament above, jesus.


That's a good example, as far as I know you didn't raise any of those concerns in the meeting about the @-block, and you write about it as though you were completely outside of that process. Where's the self-criticism?



> My opinion on No Borders is its a shit name, and i don't agree with putting forward open borders as a solution to fuck all under capitalism. I believe that communities should manage themselves, which means they should have a say in hopusing and resource allocation - not the state, not the local council and definitely not a group of lentil weavers shouting NO BORDERS NO NATIONS at them.


That's considerably more sensible than what Raw described.



> Raw would not have described this as 'sub-bonehead'. A bonehead is a nazi skinhead.


I forgot I wrote that, it was uncalled for, and I take it back. However, what Raw described was close to something Griffin would say.


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 22, 2007)

winjer said:
			
		

> I'm raising this with you because I can never understand the disconnect between what you say in person, and what you subsequently describe on here, libcom, etc. I totally fail to understand your antipathy towards SH, I can only assume that you have the same misconceptions about who is involved as Raw (cf. 'arty people').


there is no gap, imho. I have always given you shit, maybe unfairly, in person about the space invaders. I may well be labouring under misconceptions, but to be honest i can argue on the strength of the posts on this thread alone; You don't need to have met a space invader to join the debate.



> That's a good example, as far as I know you didn't raise any of those concerns in the meeting about the @-block, and you write about it as though you were completely outside of that process. Where's the self-criticism?


the whole thing is a self criticism. There isn't much on where i went wrong in planning, cos i wasn't involved in the planning. I met up with people a couple of times i think, but i always assumed (wrongly) that someone had a plan to revealed on the day. Please note, i call for more of this type of thing at the end. I actually rate the idea of creative protest. I just have some proviso's 

If i am involved in planning an action, you better believe i raise organisational concerns lol  Ask me abt this in person...



> That's considerably more sensible than what Raw described.


really? Thats all i've ever said on it  

I'd avoid criticising people on things other people have said about those people, if you see what i mean! I do get where you 2 are coming from, i'm easily to the right of RAW, that's not very hard! I'm not actually a fascist though, surprisingly.



> I forgot I wrote that, it was uncalled for, and I take it back.


well cheers.

I'll ask raw about the other thing when i see him.


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## Boogie Boy (Nov 25, 2007)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> My opinion on No Borders is its a shit name, and i don't agree with putting forward open borders as a solution to fuck all under capitalism. I believe that communities should manage themselves, which means they should have a say in hopusing and resource allocation - not the state, not the local council and definitely not a group of lentil weavers shouting NO BORDERS NO NATIONS at them. I have the utmost support for the immigrant defence side of NB, that is crucial. I think the name however is misleading. You want to organise, not destroy: you don't start a group at your workplace called No Money do you?
> 
> This position will be laid out in full in article soon.
> 
> ...


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## Taxamo Welf (Nov 28, 2007)

it will either go on the (upcoming) AF blog or be a pices in Organise! our mag

[it will only represent my opinion, the majority of the AF fully support every aspect of no borders, from name to analysis]


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