# Unisex Toilets in Schools



## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

I am listenting to the radio this morning and apparently gender neutral toilets are being built in  any new schools and any that need renovating are being made into gender neutral toilets. This is apparently to help combat bullying. 

I am not sure how I feel about this. My initial reaction is that it's not fair on girls who may be starting their periods. I think I'd feel more awkward knowing a boy was around and may be aware of what I was doing in the cubicle next door in terms of changing a tampon. 

And surely the causes of bullying should be sorted, rather than thinking boys wont bully other boys if girls are around....


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## Thora (Sep 8, 2017)

Its fine if they are self contained rooms with a sink etc.

However, I did a course at a Bristol secondary school a few years ago that had unisex toilets, open plan cubicles basically off the corridors with a row of sinks in the middle, and even as an adult in a pretty much empty building it wasn't a nice experience.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2017)

I would not be happy for my daughter to have to use these, the boys and girls are by definition immature and the opportunity for harassment is far greater in such a place than in a regular open space within the school.

Unless you go for 100% self-contained units, in the mode of the stand-alone disabled toilets that you get.


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## maomao (Sep 8, 2017)

It doesn't strike me as a great idea in secondary schools. In Chinese kindergartens 3-6 year olds share cubicleless toilets (girls queueing to pee in squat toilets on one side and boys queueing garden for urinals directly opposite and it isn't a problem in any way and allows teachers to supervise more easily.


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## bemused (Sep 8, 2017)

As a man who has faced the horror of using men's public toilets - this is a massive disservice the women. Why would we want to subject girls to toilets where the floors are swimming in piss and the walls are covered in comedy cock drawings?


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## ElizabethofYork (Sep 8, 2017)

Back in the olden days when I was at school, hanging around in the loos with my friends, smoking, doing our makeup, and gossiping about boys was a big part of the day.  It would have been horrible if there were boys around.


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## ffsear (Sep 8, 2017)

Jenerys said:


> I am listenting to the radio this morning ..



BBC radio by any chance?  They seem to be obsessed with gender related news these days


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2017)

bemused said:


> As a man who has faced the horror of using men's public toilets - this is a massive disservice the women. Why would we want to subject girls to toilets where the floors are swimming in piss and the walls are covered in comedy cock drawings?



I take it you've never been in a women's bog?


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## hot air baboon (Sep 8, 2017)

don't suppose anyone bothered asking the kids what they wanted in the way of toilet facilities ?


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## Clair De Lune (Sep 8, 2017)

I think it's a great idea for a number of reasons. Firstly I don't think the segregation of sexes is useful at all, we are far more alike than people would have us believe.Maybe the boys (if indeed they were creating filth in male only loos) will have to learn to be cleaner- I mean surely they don't piss all over the shop at home  Girls toilets have graffiti and filth too though, believe me...but not in the schools that have regular cleaning and checks. If every toilet has a sanitary bin it will be an eye opener for the boys- something I see as a positive. There shouldn't be shame or secrecy around periods these days ffs. Privacy in the cubicle, so no real issue for girls changing a tampon etc. If I have ever got a bit of blood on my hand in a women's toilet I haven't exactly wandered out, holding it aloft for everyone to see, it would be no different in a gender neutral toilet. They are going in there for a piss, it really doesn't matter the gender of the person in the next cubicle. 

But more than all that and yes I am biased because I have a trans son- trans people can finally go to the toilet without worrying. My son doesn't go to the loo for the whole day in school because he has no access to gender neutral toilets and doesn't feel comfortable in the girls or boys.


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## ElizabethofYork (Sep 8, 2017)

You're right that there shouldn't be shame or secrecy around periods, but the reality is that many girls would find it extremely embarrassing to have to share the loos with boys, especially during their periods.


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## bemused (Sep 8, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I take it you've never been in a women's bog?



Only where there is no CCTV.


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## Clair De Lune (Sep 8, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> You're right that there shouldn't be shame or secrecy around periods, but the reality is that many girls would find it extremely embarrassing to have to share the loos with boys, especially during their periods.


How do we change this then? Like is this an issue that parents can help with? would those girls also feel ashamed in their own homes with brother or fathers perhaps seeing/hearing them use a sanitary waste bin?


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

bemused said:


> As a man who has faced the horror of using men's public toilets - this is a massive disservice the women. Why would we want to subject girls to toilets where the floors are swimming in piss and the walls are covered in comedy cock drawings?


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

ffsear said:


> BBC radio by any chance?  They seem to be obsessed with gender related news these days


No, LBC
I have a massive crush on James O'Brien, but I put the radio on early and I had to put up with Nick Ferrari
Am sure James will get on to the subject too


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I take it you've never been in a women's bog?


Yeah all those pix of vag's we draw 
And pissing all over the seats


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## bemused (Sep 8, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> How do we change this then? Like is this an issue that parents can help with? would those girls also feel ashamed in their own homes with brother or fathers perhaps seeing/hearing them use a sanitary waste bin?



I'm not sure you can combat human nature, I don't like doing a number 2 in a public toilet if other people are in there. I remember as a kid hating gym showers at school, being uncomfortable in vulnerable situations is just part of human nature and somewhat of a rite of passage. Obviously, schools should find ways to make children comfortable but it only goes so far.


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> I mean surely they don't piss all over the shop at home


I dunno...I remember hiding my piggy bank behind the loo at home and finding it spattered and the pounds rather soggy after my brother had been in there


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## bemused (Sep 8, 2017)

Jenerys said:


> No, LBC
> I have a massive crush on James O'Brien, but I put the radio on early and I had to put up with Nick Ferrari
> Am sure James will get on to the subject too



The phrase 'gender neutral' is triggering phone in gold. If the story just said they were replacing old fashioned toilets with unisex cubicles the phones wouldn't blink.


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> How do we change this then? Like is this an issue that parents can help with? would those girls also feel ashamed in their own homes with brother or fathers perhaps seeing/hearing them use a sanitary waste bin?


Attitudes definitely need to change. 

But am not sure unisex toilets are the answer. What about blood left on toilet seats by mistake, or the unflushable blood covered loo roll. I'm not sure I would trust boys to not bet eachother to open and take things out the bin too...

I'm surprised the teachers don't let your son use a loo in the office if he is in discomfort?


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## Clair De Lune (Sep 8, 2017)

bemused said:


> I'm not sure you can combat human nature, I don't like doing a number 2 in a public toilet if other people are in there. I remember as a kid hating gym showers at school, being uncomfortable in vulnerable situations is just part of human nature and somewhat of a rite of passage. Obviously, schools should find ways to make children comfortable but it only goes so far.


If from year seven on wards they are using gender neutral loos, I am pretty sure they will get used to it pretty quickly. After all we don't overcome those things we avoid.


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## bemused (Sep 8, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> If from year seven on wards they are using gender neutral loos, I am pretty sure they will get used to it pretty quickly. After all we don't overcome those things we avoid.



I don't care what toilets my kids use in schools just as long as they are clean; if new schools are putting in toilets that no longer resemble a scene from Porridge that's great.

My point here is that I simply don't agree toilet design has any affect on embarrassment about basic bodily functions. People will still laugh at farts, or look at someone oddly if they start talking about awesome their shit was in the morning. I've got a 15-year-old son who does competitive judo, and he still wears a tee shirt because his naked torso embarrasses him; frankly, if I had a six pack like his I'd never wear a shirt. 

Emrbassement is part of the human condition, it's uncomfortable, not nice - but that's the way it is. 

As this is urban I feel the need to make it clear that I don't think shaming people for being themselves is cool.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2017)

Jenerys said:


> Yeah all those pix of vag's we draw
> And pissing all over the seats



The most rancid bogs I've ever seen have all been women's. I really could not give a toss about graffiti in a toilet, but dirty bog roll, shit, piss and menstrual blood splattered around the place in my mind is worse than the soggy floor found in the gents.


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## Looby (Sep 8, 2017)

Thora said:


> Its fine if they are self contained rooms with a sink etc.
> 
> However, I did a course at a Bristol secondary school a few years ago that had unisex toilets, open plan cubicles basically off the corridors with a row of sinks in the middle, and even as an adult in a pretty much empty building it wasn't a nice experience.



I went back to my old school for night classes a couple of years ago and they have these open plan cubicles now. 

There are a lot of good reasons for them and the main seems to be the amount of bullying that went on in toilet blocks. The fact that they're unisex is great too but I did feel uncomfortable. The cubicles were open at the top and bottom and open out almost directly on to a wide corridor and stairwell. Zero privacy for the kids.


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## Thora (Sep 8, 2017)

Looby said:


> I went back to my old school for night classes a couple of years ago and they have these open plan cubicles now.
> 
> There are a lot of good reasons for them and the main seems to be the amount of bullying that went on in toilet blocks. The fact that they're unisex is great too but I did feel uncomfortable. The cubicles were open at the top and bottom and open out almost directly on to a wide corridor and stairwell. Zero privacy for the kids.


Yep, I think back to being 12-13 and getting to grips with completely irregular, very painful, heavy periods accompanied by an upset stomach - toilets like that would have been horrendous.


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

Thora said:


> Yep, I think back to being 12-13 and getting to grips with completely irregular, very painful, heavy periods accompanied by an upset stomach - toilets like that would have been horrendous.


I agree - and starting to share loos from 7 will not change this. 

We all suddenly change when we hit puberty


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2017)

bemused said:


> if I had a six pack like his I'd never wear a shirt.





According to Emma the trainer in my gym we all have a six pack, mine's just hiding behind a keg.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 8, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The most rancid bogs I've ever seen have all been women's. I really could not give a toss about graffiti in a toilet, but dirty bog roll, shit, piss and menstrual blood splattered around the place in my mind is worse than the soggy floor found in the gents.



You make a habit of going in the ladies' bogs?


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## Celyn (Sep 8, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The most rancid bogs I've ever seen have all been women's. I really could not give a toss about graffiti in a toilet, but dirty bog roll, shit, piss and menstrual blood splattered around the place in my mind is worse than the soggy floor found in the gents.


Sounds like something out of "Trainspotting".


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2017)

cupid_stunt said:


> You make a habit of going in the ladies' bogs?



I have spent time with members of the female side of things and they have on many occasions dragged me in to see for myself just how horrific a toilet can be. The very worst offender being at the top of the Peak in Hong Kong, 20 years ago this year that was, the vision still haunts me.


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

Celyn said:


> Sounds like something out of "Trainspotting".


I'm having flashbacks now to a squat party toilet I don't want these pictures in my head...


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## Lambert Simnel (Sep 8, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> You're right that there shouldn't be shame or secrecy around periods, but the reality is that many girls would find it extremely embarrassing to have to share the loos with boys, especially during their periods.



I am pretty sure no one is proposing that there be mandatory sharing of cubicles, one person at a time will still be the norm.


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## ElizabethofYork (Sep 8, 2017)

Lambert Simnel said:


> I am pretty sure no one is proposing that there by mandatory sharing of cubicles, one person at a time will still be the norm.



Thank you so much for explaining that to me.


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## Lambert Simnel (Sep 8, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Thank you so much for explaining that to me.



You seemed to have misunderstood the word "share". Glad I could be of assistance.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 8, 2017)

Jenerys said:


> I am listenting to the radio this morning and apparently gender neutral toilets are being built in  any new schools and any that need renovating are being made into gender neutral toilets. This is apparently to help combat bullying.



Would it not make more sense to continue to have separate girls and boys toilets and just have additional self contained unisex units which are open and available to be used by all. So nobody is excluded, trans, disabled, or those that just want can go to the toilet in peace.

I think we've had threads before where unisex toilets were mostly frowned upon because men and women particularly found them uncomfortable. For a time I was  in favour of shared basins/separate toilets until it was brought to my attention that many women would feel uncomfortable with washing out their mooncup around men. With the added anxieties of adolescent children and the immaturity of kids and potential for bullying, I just don't see how this would 'combat bullying.' I do see a huge potential to exacerbate it though.


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## Red Cat (Sep 8, 2017)

Yes, that would make sense. But looking at young people from a developmental pov seems to bypass much planning for their needs.


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## Thora (Sep 8, 2017)

Toilets at school are a big issue for lots of children, male and female and in primary and secondary schools - for accessibility, cleanliness, safety, privacy reasons.
My experience of unisex toilets in new schools is that they are used to make children more easily observable by adults (and maybe to cut down on the number of toilets provided) - which might cut down on actual bad behaviour *in* the toilets but doesn't do anything to protect children's dignity or privacy.


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## crossthebreeze (Sep 8, 2017)

Thora said:


> Yep, I think back to being 12-13 and getting to grips with completely irregular, very painful, heavy periods accompanied by an upset stomach - toilets like that would have been horrendous.


I totally agree.  I think any child who has menstrual or urinary or bowel related problems would have an extremely hard time using toilets like that.  I also think that while boys might eventually get used to being around menstrual-related stuff, things might be very difficult for the first few girls in a year group that start their periods.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 8, 2017)

I once stuck a kids blazer down the bog and pissed on it because we had beef. Just needed to share.


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 8, 2017)

I think it's a great idea for inclusion and learning a different way of being with each other.   I hope we see much more of it in public life 

  However, I can see the design in schools  being skimpy to save costs and this ending up giving no one the privacy they need


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## Santino (Sep 8, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I once stuck a kids blazer down the bog and pissed on it because we had beef. Just needed to share.


28 years old you were.


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## pengaleng (Sep 8, 2017)

I always wondered why you have to piss with other people in public places, and why it gets peoples backs up when the creation of a 'third' bathroom situation is mentioned,  it'd be a fourth because we already have a third (goes to show how invisible disabled people are still) which is disabled facilities which are already neutral. it wouldnt be 'othering' trans people either because those facilities will be used by anyone who is comfortable using them and as you cant tell in a lot of cases who is what visually then trans people will still be able to pick the option that feels safest. it would also help deal with overflow if the gendereds are all full people would just nip in the neutral one < which would actually help with safety. i dont see what the big deal is. forcing people into situations they dont wanna be in has never really worked that well for anyone especially in cases of forced social change, it has to be organic. force is met with resistance.

you cant just shove kids in schools together cus it'll all be undone when scandals of kids shagging in them hit the press.

the whole thing of the women toilet rape thing is just a scary myth that is poison. if you think about it it's not likely that an aggressor would choose an enclosed space with one door in and out in a public place where anybody could walk in to carry out  their attack, it just doesnt make sense having watched shit loads of stuff about criminology.


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## Lambert Simnel (Sep 8, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> Would it not make more sense to continue to have separate girls and boys toilets and just have additional self contained unisex units which are open and available to be used by all. So nobody is excluded, trans, disabled, or those that just want can go to the toilet in peace.



Except disabled people who are forced to use unisex facilities. If using a toilet previously used by someone of a different gender is so terrible, why is it inflicted on disabled people?


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 8, 2017)

Lambert Simnel said:


> Except disabled people who are forced to use unisex facilities. If using a toilet previously used by someone of a different gender is so terrible, why is it inflicted on disabled people?



But I don't think using a toilet previously used by someone of a different gender is terrible. I do however think mixed-sex communal toilets pose a problem.

So what I saying is an additional, all inclusive, self-contained, open to all male/female/disabled/trans toilet should be the solution. It's neither a shared space, nor a gender-exclusive option. Just keep things as-is with separate communal toilets.


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## cybershot (Sep 8, 2017)

Twas on 5live a few weeks ago, apparently some primary school has already trialled it, along with other gender neutral changes, such as not separating boys and girls when it came to where they could hang their coat and what not.

Apparently it encouraged them to mix more at playtime and what not, but personally i think this is just people pushing too much adultness onto kids too early on, and again removing innocence from them.

Fwiw the school changed everything back as soon as the trial was over.

However I'd be more keen to see this in more workplaces, it might teach the females to leave the toilets in a better state than they currently do.


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## cybershot (Sep 8, 2017)

I can't imagine Secondary Schools would do it, but if you're going to introduce it at primary level, then surely it then becomes weird if it's opposite. Also I wouldn't want to be that 15 year old school girl walking into a toilet on my own with a group of lads hanging about.


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## pengaleng (Sep 8, 2017)

Lambert Simnel said:


> Except disabled people who are forced to use unisex facilities. If using a toilet previously used by someone of a different gender is so terrible, why is it inflicted on disabled people?



'forced' 'inflicted' < whats yer beef?

is there a campaign amongst the disabled about their toilets that I'm not aware of?


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## crossthebreeze (Sep 8, 2017)

Lambert Simnel said:


> Except disabled people who are forced to use unisex facilities. If using a toilet previously used by someone of a different gender is so terrible, why is it inflicted on disabled people?


I personally don't have a problem with self-contained unisex toilets with sinks, but do have issues with certain other designs. I also think where possible a range of disabled facilities should be provided in as many situations as possible (for example at work we have a toilet with a high seat, alarm, and grab rails in the women's block as well as a fully wheelchair accessible unisex disabled toilet - and they are looking at getting a full "changing room".)  Unisex disabled toilets are always needed though as they need to be suitable for a disabled person to use aided by their carer or personal assistant (who may not be of the same gender).


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## pengaleng (Sep 8, 2017)

fwiw I dont think that trans people should be using disabled toilets, being trans isnt a disability, these toilets are adapted to meet the needs of disabled people and sometimes disability means having urinary urgency and shit like that, they are there for a reason, there is a NEED for another option. like obviously if it's the safest way for you to piss then whatever, but specifically incorporating them is the wrong move.


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## crossthebreeze (Sep 8, 2017)

cybershot said:


> Twas on 5live a few weeks ago, apparently some primary school has already trialled it, along with other gender neutral changes, such as not separating boys and girls when it came to where they could hang their coat and what not.
> 
> Apparently it encouraged them to mix more at playtime and what not, but personally i think this is just people pushing too much adultness onto kids too early on, and again removing innocence from them.
> 
> ...


It was part of that No More Boys and Girls programme (really good and still on iplayer). The unisex toilets seemed like the only change that wasn't seen as positive by the kids -  lots of comments about it being embarrassing from both boys and girls and one girl saying she was trying to hold it in all day. The toilet wasn't designed to be unisex though - as far as i understand it it was a block of cubicles that used to be a girls toilet. I don't really get how its removing innocence or forcing adultness on them though!


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## pengaleng (Sep 8, 2017)

crossthebreeze said:


> The unisex toilets seemed like the only change that wasn't seen as positive by the kids -  lots of comments about it being embarrassing from both boys and girls and *one girl saying she was trying to hold it in all day.*



am sure ive read something similar in articles about indias lack of toilets, in fact there might be quite a vocal campaign about it


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 8, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> am sure ive read something similar in articles about indias lack of toilets, in fact there might be quite a vocal campaign about it


Isn't that a lack of toilet overall though so that girls have to squat in the open?


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## pengaleng (Sep 8, 2017)

fuck knows, the outcome is apparently the same tho, holding it in. just highlighting why forcing social change like this is bad I guess

I have no idea why my last post is edited i am high i might have leaned on the keyboard


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## Thora (Sep 8, 2017)

I've been to a couple of places recently with unisex toilets (a hospital and a zoo) and I doubt anyone had a problem with them as they were individual rooms with solid lockable doors and sinks/bins in the room.  So the issue isn't really unisex toilets but specifically how they are done in schools - communal, shared facilities, open plan.

No one wants to use toilets where they feel vulnerable/exposed/embarrassed.


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## Jenerys (Sep 8, 2017)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I think it's a great idea for inclusion and learning a different way of being with each other.   I hope we see much more of it in public life
> 
> However, I can see the design in schools  being skimpy to save costs and this ending up giving no one the privacy they need


That's exactly why it is apparently - and to save space


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## emanymton (Sep 8, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> Would it not make more sense to continue to have separate girls and boys toilets and just have additional self contained unisex units which are open and available to be used by all.


Hell no. Most kids would stick to the segregated toilets. Any kid using the uniaex ones would make themselves out as different and get ripped to peices.


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## pengaleng (Sep 8, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Hell no. Most kids would stick to the segregated toilets. Any kid using the uniaex ones would make themselves out as different and get ripped to peices.




if it's made a big deal out of yeah maybe, if the toilets were refurbished and one was included as part of that and no one said anything and it was just a normal regular thing that nobody made a big deal out of then it'd probably be a lot smoother

I think only having one separate cubicle is crap tho, you need a actual space with a few stalls because a lot of socialising goes on in school toilets regardless of gender stuff so it is basically just alienating and othering a specific group of people from that interaction as well as inferring it's not safe for you to go into toilets with other people whether thats for personal safety or the safety of others. it defeats the point of normalisation unless everyone else is having a seperate cubicle too.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 8, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> don't suppose anyone bothered asking the kids what they wanted in the way of toilet facilities ?



If we asked kids what they wanted school wouldn't even be a thing, never mind the finer points of cludgie design.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 8, 2017)

cybershot said:


> Apparently it encouraged them to mix more at playtime and what not, but personally i think this is just people pushing too much adultness onto kids too early on, and again removing innocence from them.



Gender-based segregation is an adult thing inflicted on children, not an innate childhood thing soon grown out of. 

And again, school itself is designed to foist adulthood on kids at an early age. It teaches adherence to arbitrary rules and obedience to arbitrary authority. All the stupid shit you need to do to make a living in the post-industrial economy.


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## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

I once shat myself rather than  use toilets at school. They terrified me!


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## chilango (Sep 8, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> If we asked kids what they wanted school wouldn't even be a thing, never mind the finer points of cludgie design.



Kinda.

Kids IME want to learn. Just school as we know it tends not to be set up for learning.


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## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> the whole thing of the women toilet rape thing is just a scary myth that is poison. if you think about it it's not likely that an aggressor would choose an enclosed space with one door in and out in a public place where anybody could walk in to carry out  their attack, it just doesnt make sense having watched shit loads of stuff about criminology.




I saw a thread on Mumsnet where they were all talking about the safety of their young girls, the tone of it was that they wouldn't want to let their 9 year old daughter into a space with some dodgy men. Never mind their sons though! It's a red herring. As if adult women aren't ever a risk, or that male child abusers don't just walk into girls toilets anyway if they want to - or wait outside. I then found a case from a few years ago of a 9 year old boy who was murdered in a men's toilet because he was with his aunt who sent the kid in alone. The benefit, if there had been gn toilets, is she could have gone into the toilets with her nephew.


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## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Hell no. Most kids would stick to the segregated toilets. Any kid using the uniaex ones would make themselves out as different and get ripped to peices.


I was ripped to pieces anyway. I can't help but think if there had been gn toilets at my school it might have been marginally better for me.


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## scifisam (Sep 8, 2017)

Thora said:


> I've been to a couple of places recently with unisex toilets (a hospital and a zoo) and I doubt anyone had a problem with them as they were individual rooms with solid lockable doors and sinks/bins in the room.  So the issue isn't really unisex toilets but specifically how they are done in schools - communal, shared facilities, open plan.
> 
> No one wants to use toilets where they feel vulnerable/exposed/embarrassed.



Yup. Those toilets would work really well, for trans kids as well as everyone else. Sinks in the cubicle help a lot when you have your period too. These days for me it's because of my mooncup but as a teenager with endless periods it would have been helpful because OMG there was so much blood. A sink would have been the difference between me choosing to go to school that day or staying home. 

But that's not what unisex toilets are actually going to be, are they?


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## emanymton (Sep 8, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> I was ripped to pieces anyway. I can't help but think if there had been gn toilets at my school it might have been marginally better for me.


You might be right, and are in a better position to judge than me. But I would have thought having a 'special' toilet only you used would have made you even more isolated?


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## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

emanymton said:


> You might be right, and are in a better position to judge than me. But I would have thought having a 'special' toilet only you used would have made you even more isolated?


there's no reason to think it would only be me using it.

And I don't think I could have been more isolated tbh. At least I could have had a crap in peace.


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## emanymton (Sep 8, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> there's no reason to think it would only be me using it.
> 
> And I don't think I could have been more isolated tbh. At least I could have had a crap in peace.


A good crap in peace is one of life's underrated pleasures.


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## Clair De Lune (Sep 8, 2017)

So it seems that most people would be ok with gn toilets if a few of the stalls had a sink. 

I used a guys toilets recently in a pub cos there was a queue for the women's. I walked out of the cubicle and went to wash my hands. In the mirror I saw a guy clock me from behind and the look of horror on his face is still tickling me now  omg a female in here argh.


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## spanglechick (Sep 8, 2017)

I have nothing against unisex looks - even in schools - if every cubicle has a sink and sanitary bin.

If not, then because of potential period hands, girls need a bit more privacy.

I can't see any other defendable reason, though.


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## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> So it seems that most people would be ok with gn toilets if a few of the stalls had a sink.
> 
> I used a guys toilets recently in a pub cos there was a queue for the women's. I walked out of the cubicle and went to wash my hands. In the mirror I saw a guy clock me from behind and the look of horror on his face is still tickling me now  omg a female in here argh.


I went in to the men's toilet a couple of years ago in my mates local pub to do some photos to highlight the absurdity of forcing trans women into men's toilets. And the potential risks.
The guys who saw me go in looked a bit shocked. Didn't say anything but stared at me for ages after I came out.


----------



## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> I have nothing against unisex looks - even in schools - if every cubicle has a sink and sanitary bin.
> 
> If not, then because of potential period hands, girls need a bit more privacy.
> 
> I can't see any other defendable reason, though.


Individual sinks for that age group of girls sounds like a no brainer to me regardless of whether toilets are GN or not. Friend at work was talking about how she's had to give up with using her mooncup at work because of lack of privacy and that's in the ladies.


----------



## Winot (Sep 8, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> So it seems that most people would be ok with gn toilets if a few of the stalls had a sink.



And a shelf for racking up lines.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 8, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> So it seems that most people would be ok with gn toilets if a few of the stalls had a sink.
> 
> I used a guys toilets recently in a pub cos there was a queue for the women's. I walked out of the cubicle and went to wash my hands. In the mirror I saw a guy clock me from behind and the look of horror on his face is still tickling me now  omg a female in here argh.



If all - not just a few - of the cubicles had those sinks, plus had floor to ceiling (or nearly at the ceiling) walls, I think that would be the best solution for everyone, yes.


----------



## Sea Star (Sep 8, 2017)

scifisam said:


> If all - not just a few - of the cubicles had those sinks, plus had floor to ceiling (or nearly at the ceiling) walls, I think that would be the best solution for everyone, yes.


it's the one I'm going to suggest at work - as our best practice model.


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## dessiato (Sep 8, 2017)

We had mixed toilets when I was at school in France. I visited Caen university, mixed there too. The public toilets were often mixed. I saw no problems there. I suspect that the problem is as much to do with the odd way British people see bodily functions as anything else.


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## trashpony (Sep 8, 2017)

If there's GN toilets - there needs to be full length doors and sinks. 

I can't see that happening in primary schools because the potential for mischief is too great. In that boys and girls programme on BBC where they made the toilets gender neutral, the boys started harrassing the girls. And they were 7 year olds 

The reality is that full length doors, individual sinks and sanitary bins are hugely expensive.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 8, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> Individual sinks for that age group of girls sounds like a no brainer to me regardless of whether toilets are GN or not. Friend at work was
> 
> 
> trashpony said:
> ...


----------



## trashpony (Sep 8, 2017)

I've no idea about the costs really - maybe they wouldn't be that different. 

But it's not just about cost. As a schoolgirl, I found that women-only space really important. It felt like a safe space free from the male gaze - actually it has all the way through my life. That space where you could discuss that boy who was harassing you or whether you should take your cardi off or whether you should try and persuade your drunk mate to go home. It's been a really important bonding space for me. And it still is, even though as an old woman, I'm pretty invisible. 

I would hate for girls to lose that. I think it's really important in a patriarchal society.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 8, 2017)

chilango said:


> Kids IME want to learn. Just school as we know it tends not to be set up for learning.



A mate of mine trains teachers and one of his sayings is that children learn, because it is in their nature to learn, there are things that you can do to facilitate the learning, but to really stop children learning, what you need is a teacher.

In my opinion, schools are not set up for learning by design.  The really good teachers help learning to happen in spite of the systems, not because of them.

Obv this is unrelated to how the toilets are set up, but I think if they are sensibly designed and the children grow up with this arrangement, there's no reason I can think of why it couldn't work.  

I'm aware that "there's no reason I can think of" isn't a very good argument, though, so obv defer to people who know more.


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## scifisam (Sep 8, 2017)

trashpony said:


> I've no idea about the costs really - maybe they wouldn't be that different.
> 
> But it's not just about cost. As a schoolgirl, I found that women-only space really important. It felt like a safe space free from the male gaze - actually it has all the way through my life. That space where you could discuss that boy who was harassing you or whether you should take your cardi off or whether you should try and persuade your drunk mate to go home. It's been a really important bonding space for me. And it still is, even though as an old woman, I'm pretty invisible.
> 
> I would hate for girls to lose that. I think it's really important in a patriarchal society.


That is a very valid point. But the girls could just cluster in one cubicle if it were big enough to fit a sink, and then the girls who weren't in that particular friendship group wouldn't feel like they were intruding  when they went to take a wee. 

I suspect that gender neutral loos in secondary schools would quickly divide along gender lines - cubicles 1-3 would be for boys, 4-6"would be girls, or something like that. 

However, that would still leave more room for manoeuvre if no boys were waiting but a girl was and vice versa


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## Chilli.s (Sep 9, 2017)

Jenerys said:


> apparently to help combat bullying



What a crock of shit, it's to combat financial constraints.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

maomao said:


> It doesn't strike me as a great idea in secondary schools. In Chinese kindergartens 3-6 year olds share cubicleless toilets (girls queueing to pee in squat toilets on one side and boys queueing garden for urinals directly opposite and it isn't a problem in any way and allows teachers to supervise more easily.



Are you saying that the teachers stand and watch the kids peeing?
That would never happen here.


----------



## maomao (Sep 9, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Are you saying that the teachers stand and watch the kids peeing?
> That would never happen here.


I've known female Chinese teachers teach boys to use a urinal properly by going in and holding their dicks for them. And if all the kids were going at once (before playtime or something)  there would be a teacher in attendance.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

maomao said:


> I've known female Chinese teachers teach boys to use a urinal properly by going in and holding their dicks for them. And if all the kids were going at once (before playtime or something)  there would be a teacher in attendance.




That would be a child protection violation here.....


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## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Are you saying that the teachers stand and watch the kids peeing?
> That would never happen here.


Teachers of 3-5 year olds here still supervise the toilets (though usually they have low cubicle doors adults can see over rather than none) and wipe bottoms and change pants so not that different - though I'd leave any penis-holding to parents


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## maomao (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> Teachers of 3-5 year olds here still supervise the toilets (though usually they have low cubicle doors adults can see over rather than none) and wipe bottoms and change pants so not that different - though I'd leave any penis-holding to parents


It was in extreme cases only. Most little boys can aim their pee.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> Teachers of 3-5 year olds here still supervise the toilets (though usually they have low cubicle doors adults can see over rather than none) and wipe bottoms and change pants so not that different - though I'd leave any penis-holding to parents



Pre school ... yeah there may be changing of a nappy..etc.

But at 5yrs a child would be in a junior infant class in primary school and would have to go to the toilet without assistance from the teacher. 
Teachers over here are warned not to touch children in a way that could be misconstrued later and Junior Infant teachers will contact parents rather than address a problem such as a child soiling themselves.  
A child being taught how to use a toilet is seen as the responsibility of parents and not the school...over here.


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## Red Cat (Sep 9, 2017)

Children need adults to look after them. Sometimes that involves helping with toileting.


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## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Pre school ... yeah there may be changing of a nappy..etc.
> 
> But at 5yrs a child would be in a junior infant class in primary school and would have to go to the toilet without assistance from the teacher.
> Teachers over here are warned not to touch children in a way that could be misconstrued later and Junior Infant teachers will contact parents rather than address a problem such as a child soiling themselves.
> A child being taught how to use a toilet is seen as the responsibility of parents and not the school...over here.


Obviously different cultural approaches but leaving a 5 year old in soiled clothes while you called the parents would be considered very poor practice in England - children's welfare is a paramount concern.


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## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

Children also cannot be excluded or denied an education for continence issues - and "no-touch" policies aren't good practice.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> Obviously different cultural approaches but leaving a 5 year old in soiled clothes while you called the parents would be considered very poor practice in England - children's welfare is a paramount concern.



Well over here there's one teacher with up to 34 five year olds in a class so parents either take the child home or come and help change them. It's unusual to have a problem....


It's not cultural btw.
Schools are just schools. 
Parents provide lunches for their kids.
Responsibilities are very defined and it is the responsibility of parents to clothe snd feed and toilet train their own child....
By the time a child starts their primary school education it is ecpected that the child has been toilet trained


----------



## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

Its hard when the education system is so overstretched and underfunded, the interests of little children end up at the bottom of the pile.  Things have definitely got worse over the last few years here too but fortunately not quite that bad yet.


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## spanglechick (Sep 9, 2017)

Our student loos don't really facilitate much private chatter (too small and close to staff offices for kids to be hanging around). Trying to discourage loos as social spaces is partly about trying to limit bullying, self harm and other CP issues.

The kids don't seem to find any shortage of quiet corners to share their secrets in.

However, my ideal design for loos in secondary schools would be individual unisex rooms, smaller than disabled loos and opening directly onto the corridor.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> Children also cannot be excluded or denied an education for continence issues - and "no-touch" policies aren't good practice.



Roles are very clearly defined here.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> Its hard when the education system is so overstretched and underfunded, the interests of little children end up at the bottom of the pile.  Things have definitely got worse over the last few years here too but fortunately not quite that bad yet.



I dont see the defining of roles as bad at all
 The education system here is excellent btw.

It is just expected that toilet training is carried out prior to commencing primary school.  There may be little accidents and the parents may need to help out but ot rarely happens in my experience because children start school at 5....and the vast majority are already trained in either pre schools or at home.


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## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> I dont see the defining of roles as bad at all
> The education system here is excellent btw.
> 
> It is just expected that toilet training is carried out prior to commencing primary school.  There may be little accidents and the parents may need to help out but ot rarely happens in my experience because children start school at 5....and the vast majority are already trained in either pre schools or at home.


I don't know what age you teach, but I don't know any infant teacher who would want to leave a young child humiliated and uncomfortable if they had any other option.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

I'll just add another point.
Over here the responsibility for feeding, dressing and caring for children rests with the child's parents/guardians...
It is not the responsibility of the school to feed or dress a pupil. If a child needs specific help with dressing or feeding then the school will do all it can to support this need but requires to have written  parental consent to do so. This help may have to be carried out by a classroom assistant (few and far between) in the company of the teacher.
All pupils are cared for though and if a child has no lunch they will get one at school but it's unofficially done. There are very few schools with canteens.  Most children bring a packed lunch. All the school day is full class contact time...there are no free periods for the vast majority of teachers....or indeed pupils.


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## tim (Sep 9, 2017)

As a man who has rarely had to queue to use a public toilet I would think that we'll designed unisex toilets in all public places would at least make life a little more equal. I went into a McDonald's on Oxford Street a couple of weeks ago and there was a long line of women waiting for the lavatory, and free stalls in the gents.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> I don't know what age you teach, but I don't know any infant teacher who would want to leave a young child humiliated and uncomfortable if they had any other option.



Well....staff cannot leave 34 kids on their own either....
Parents are contacted. There is nothing more that can be done. If the child has a change of clothes then they could be helped but under no circumstances would a teacher clean a child's private parts.
You need to see this in light of the horrors of child abuse cases that came to light in the past 20 years over here.
Primary schools will have a pupil teacher ratio of 28:1...primary schools have one teacher per class and a principal teacher...they may have a designated SNA assigned to individual children. The only other staff will be a school secretary if the school is big enough and a caretaker.

I'm not talking about pre school btw...
I'm talking about primary school.....no child starts primary unless they are 5 yrs old.


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## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Well....staff cannot leave 34 kids on their own either....
> Parents are contacted. There is nothing more that can be done. If the child has a change of clothes then they could be helped but under no circumstances would a teacher clean a child's private parts.
> 
> I'm not talking about pre school
> I'm talking about primary school.....no child starts primary unless they are 5 yrs old.


Exactly, unfortunately its the only option available given the constraints of the system they have to work within, but its an awful option for the child.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> Exactly, unfortunately its the only option available given the constraints of the system they have to work within, but its an awful option for the child.



Well...that's how it is and in my experience of teaching 36 junior infants albeit a long time ago...the one or two times it happened the parent arrived quickly....as in within 15 minutes.
I do agree that it is tough on the child but until the government allocates SNAs to every classroom in the country there isnt much can be done.

When I taught infants I used to take all of them to the toilet for timetabled toilet breaks. These were every 70 minutes for roughly 5 minutes
 So accidents tended to be few and far between. That's a long time ago though and that school had a toilet block with 20 toilets for boys and 20 for girls.
I did  have  one or two who hadnt been fully toilet trained and their parents made the decision to let their child wear pullup nappies for the first term and to spend some extra time helping their 5 yr olds get used to using toilets and recognising when they needed to go.


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## Red Cat (Sep 9, 2017)

Going to the toilet is an emotional experience for kids, it's not just a matter of skills, which some just don't have. I remember wetting myself in infants, presumably because I held on too long for fear of going to the toilet. Standing in the store room getting a spare pair of knickers from the teacher and worrying everyone was watching is one my strongest memories of that time.

Anyway, I just asked my 6 and 9 year old girls their thoughts. 6 year old is fine with gn toilets. 9 nearly 10 year old thinks she wasn't bothered when she was 6 either but now would be but found it hard to say why, indicated a concern that a boy may see her genitals. She says they also go to the toilets to do girl talk secrets. I wondered what they are and she said it was none of my business


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## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> Going to the toilet is an emotional experience for kids, it's not just a matter of skills, which some just don't have. I remember wetting myself in infants, presumably because I held on too long for fear of going to the toilet. Standing in the store room getting a spare pair of knickers from the teacher and worrying everyone was watching is one my strongest memories of that time.



I'm embarrassed to say that once in secondary school I had an accident...
I was on the all weather pitch, which was a long way from any toilet...and a few of us were messing about and having a laugh.
I got a fit of laughing and within anout 20 seconds realised that I had to get to a loo soon.... so I started running up the hill towards the school....and wouldnt you know...running made things worse.  Half way there I realised that I wouldn't make it and just as I realised this, the warm pee began to run down my legs.

Did not tell anyone.....ever.... til now.


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## Athos (Sep 9, 2017)

tim said:


> As a man who has rarely had to queue to use a public toilet I would think that we'll designed unisex toilets in all public places would at least make life a little more equal. I went into a McDonald's on Oxford Street a couple of weeks ago and there was a long line of women waiting for the lavatory, and free stalls in the gents.



So you'd rather increase waiting times for everybody, as long as the (longer) waits are evenly distributed by gender?


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## scifisam (Sep 9, 2017)

Athos said:


> So you'd rather increase waiting times for everybody, as long as the (longer) weights are evenly distributed by gender?


Why would it increase waits for everybody?


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2017)

How would individual gn toilet "rooms" work logistically in a school with a couple of thousand pupils?

Would there be the space to create them?

Personally I think schools are too big, and architecturally horrible. 

I visited a new build academy recently - it was seriously, and deliberately, oppressive. Designed and built for the surveillance and control of pupils and staff.

Horrible horrible horrible place.

It's a good school with a good reputation apparently.


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## Red Cat (Sep 9, 2017)

chilango said:


> How would individual gn toilet "rooms" work logistically in a school with a couple of thousand pupils?
> 
> Would there be the space to create them?
> 
> ...



Yes I heard about similar in Birmingham last week, no privacy, a culture of surveillance. Terrifying.


----------



## chilango (Sep 9, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> Yes I heard about similar in Birmingham last week, no privacy, a culture of surveillance. Terrifying.



For example, instead of a central staff room it had open Plan units on the corridor with microwaves and kettles for the handfull of staff in each area to take a break in full view if anyone passing.

Blatant


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## Athos (Sep 9, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Why would it increase waits for everybody?



Because there'd be the same number of people and fewer toilets (since stalls take up more room than urinals).

Say 20 men and 20 women each arrive at their respective toilets with an equal distribution over time.

For simplicity, let's say they all want a piss.

The women's toilet has five stalls; the men's had two stalls and eight urinals (in the same space). This means that there's twice as many toilets for men  (which is why their queue moves twice as quick).

The last person to arrive is a woman; she has 19 people in front of her, using five toilets.  If each person spends 20 seconds in a stall, that's 380 seconds, divided by five stalls, which equates to a 76 second wait.

When the toilets become unisex,  there's room for 10 stalls.

When the last woman arrives, there's now 39 people ahead of her, using 10 toilets. Which equates to a wait of 78 seconds.

Obviously, there's some assumptions in there, and the effect might be somewhat offset by the fact that in times when men's toilets have space but women's are full, unisex would allow women to use what would otherwise be unused empty toilets.  But, equally, there'd be further delays caused by men then having to open and close doors.

A better bet (purely from a space utilisation perspective) would be to try to get the numbers as equal as possible,  whilst still maximising them, through the use of urinals. So, in the hypothetical combined space above, that'd mean seven stalls for the women and one stall and five urinals for the men.  Or,  better still a unisex room with eight stalls and five urinals


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 9, 2017)

chilango said:


> How would individual gn toilet "rooms" work logistically in a school with a couple of thousand pupils?
> 
> Would there be the space to create them?
> 
> ...



All the recently-built academy schools I've been to have been suffused wth a palpable sense of dread. I think the architecture has a lot to do with it.


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## Red Cat (Sep 9, 2017)

chilango said:


> For example, instead of a central staff room it had open Plan units on the corridor with microwaves and kettles for the handfull of staff in each area to take a break in full view if anyone passing.
> 
> Blatant



Yes, similar here. No staff room, just small spaces with floor to ceiling windows so the staff could be seen from the other side by the young people.


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## Clair De Lune (Sep 9, 2017)

It's interesting how resistant we all are to change and how a lot of that is due to fear and shame. Yet with a short conversation, a sharing of ideas and experiences we can come to an agreement that would suit almost everyone. 
Clearly this kind of thing is integral in good planning for change of any kind.


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## spanglechick (Sep 9, 2017)

Nobody uses staff rooms any more. No time.  Our school turned ours into a sixth form common room/study area.  The idea of having time to just sit and chat/relax is like a weird fever dream memory.  I know i used to do it...


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## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

Unisex toilets could be done in a way that protects all children's privacy and dignity, but in schools they won't be.


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## spanglechick (Sep 9, 2017)

Thora said:


> Unisex toilets could be done in a way that protects all children's privacy and dignity, but in schools they won't be.


They might.  It's not impossible.  Not all schools ae being designed in this same open plan way.   And most school building projects are about modifying existing buildings.


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## Thora (Sep 9, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> They might.  It's not impossible.  Not all schools ae being designed in this same open plan way.   And most school building projects are about modifying existing buildings.


Fewer toilets taking up more space giving children more privacy?  Sounds unlikely to me unfortunately.


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## Poot (Sep 9, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> Nobody uses staff rooms any more. No time.  Our school turned ours into a sixth form common room/study area.  The idea of having time to just sit and chat/relax is like a weird fever dream memory.  I know i used to do it...


That's sad. Teachers have lost so much over the last few years.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 9, 2017)

Poot said:


> That's sad. Teachers have lost so much over the last few years.



Yes
..we go straight from class onto yard duty and back to class. No break.
Schools here (at primary level) have full class contact time all day...so if you're om yard duty you dont get a break. I eat with the kids in class for 5 minutes and hope that I wont need the loo cos there's nobody to cover for me even for a couple of minutes.


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## scifisam (Sep 9, 2017)

Athos said:


> Because there'd be the same number of people and fewer toilets (since stalls take up more room than urinals).
> 
> Say 20 men and 20 women each arrive at their respective toilets with an equal distribution over time.
> 
> ...


You're forgetting that women take longer than men even when both are using cubicles. Sitting down, removing clothes and wiping, plus sometimes dealing with periods, takes longer than just whipping out your willy and widdling. So for women the wait would be shorter.

And I'm really not sure that a unisex loo where men actually got their willies out in front of women (urinals) would be a popular idea.


----------



## Athos (Sep 10, 2017)

scifisam said:


> You're forgetting that women take longer than men even when both are using cubicles. Sitting down, removing clothes and wiping, plus sometimes dealing with periods, takes longer than just whipping out your willy and widdling. So for women the wait would be shorter.
> 
> And I'm really not sure that a unisex loo where men actually got their willies out in front of women (urinals) would be a popular idea.



Happens in some countries.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 10, 2017)

Athos said:


> Happens in some countries.



I was in the Sweden on a teacher exchange project a few years ago and all the teachers doing the project stayed on a boat. It was a floating hotel and could accommodate up to 250 guests. 
I will never forget the awkward feeling of sharing the toilets. They were in one block...toilet cubicles no urinals phew.....sinks and shower cubicles.
I found it disconcerting brushing my teeth whilst some guy peed and farted in the cubicle behind me. 
And one of the older men took a fancy to me and I ended up getting up at 5am just to get my shower to avoid bumping into him.
Not an experience I would like to repeat...

In a mixed school of kids aged from 12 to 18...I cant see young 12 yr old girls being too comfortable sharing toilets with 18 yr old men.


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## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

Athos said:


> Happens in some countries.


Bollocks. In more than one way.


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## Athos (Sep 10, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> I was in the Sweden on a teacher exchange project a few years ago and all the teachers doing the project stayed on a boat. It was a floating hotel and could accommodate up to 250 guests.
> I will never forget the awkward feeling of sharing the toilets. They were in one block...toilet cubicles no urinals phew.....sinks and shower cubicles.
> I found it disconcerting brushing my teeth whilst some guy peed and farted in the cubicle behind me.
> And one of the older men took a fancy to me and I ended up getting up at 5am just to get my shower to avoid bumping into him.
> ...





scifisam said:


> Bollocks. In more than one way.



I'm not arguing for it. Just noting that it does happen elsewhere.


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## Sea Star (Sep 10, 2017)

Young trans girls tend not to be all that happy about peeing with men either but no one actually considers that to be a problem except us.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I once stuck a kids blazer down the bog and pissed on it because we had beef. Just needed to share.



Admit it, you were actually the victim, and it was Matt Smith who pissed on *your* blazer, and oh how you wish you'd kept it, as you could have sold squares of it for _mucho dinero_ to Whovians.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2017)

Lambert Simnel said:


> Except disabled people who are forced to use unisex facilities. If using a toilet previously used by someone of a different gender is so terrible, why is it inflicted on disabled people?



In some places, accessible loos are *already* unisex - off the top of my head, Kings College and St Thomas's Hospitals and the Barbican spring to mind.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> 'forced' 'inflicted' < whats yer beef?
> 
> is there a campaign amongst the disabled about their toilets that I'm not aware of?



Nope, and I've yet to meet a disabled person who objects to accessible loos being unisex, as long as they meet current design standards.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

Athos said:


> I'm not arguing for it. Just noting that it does happen elsewhere.


Why are you quoting that to back you up? Bubbles said there were no urinals. That was the point of disagreement, not unisex loos existing at all. 

Stella, true in general but now these unisex toilets are partly intended to help those girls, aren't they?


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## Celyn (Sep 10, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> Young trans girls tend not to be all that happy about peeing with men either but no one actually considers that to be a problem except us.


Well, quite. And that's bad. Horribly bad. And, Stella, you're old, by which I mean you're a fair few years younger than I am,      so no matter how much horrendously bad stuff happened in schools at our time I can only think that the fact that that it is even being discussed these days is a bit of a small step forward.

(Being Scottish, I was going to say it was a "wee step forward", then realised that might be considered uncouth.)


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## Celyn (Sep 10, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> In some places, accessible loos are *already* unisex - off the top of my head, Kings College and St Thomas's Hospitals and the Barbican spring to mind.


Now I come to think of it, in hospitals that is pretty much the usual thing, surely?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2017)

Celyn said:


> Now I come to think of it, in hospitals that is pretty much the usual thing, surely?



Didn't used to be, but fortunately hospitals copped on to the fact that locating accessible toilets in the gendered blocks meant losing capacity AND was causing disabled people with mobility problems some big issues (the entrance door and isolating door, especially), so they started locating them more rationally.


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## Athos (Sep 10, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Why are you quoting that to back you up? Bubbles said there were no urinals. That was the point of disagreement, not unisex loos existing at all.
> 
> Stella, true in general but now these unisex toilets are partly intended to help those girls, aren't they?



There are unisex toilets with urinals.


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## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Didn't used to be, but fortunately hospitals copped on to the fact that locating accessible toilets in the gendered blocks meant losing capacity AND was causing disabled people with mobility problems some big issues (the entrance door and isolating door, especially), so they started locating them more rationally.



And I can't see why anyone would want them gendered. They're completely enclosed spaces.

Athos, I find that unlikely. And it would create problems rather than solving them.


----------



## maomao (Sep 10, 2017)

Athos said:


> There are unisex toilets with urinals.


Unless the toilet is very badly designed you would have to make an effort to see a man's dick when he's using a urinal. Even without partitions. With partitions you'd have to make a really obvious effort.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 10, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> Young trans girls tend not to be all that happy about peeing with men either but no one actually considers that to be a problem except us.


Young children don't usually go into toilets on their own - they're accompanied by a parent and they use the toilet appropriate to their parent's sex


----------



## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

maomao said:


> Unless the toilet is very badly designed you would have to make an effort to see a man's dick when he's using a urinal. Even without partitions. With partitions you'd have to make a really obvious effort.



And at schools none of the boys would take the opportunity to "accidentally" let the girls see their dongs? Ha.


----------



## maomao (Sep 10, 2017)

scifisam said:


> And at schools none of the boys would take the opportunity to "accidentally" let the girls see their dongs? Ha.


You're probably right that a small proportion would. And a small proportion of girls would probably taunt the majority of boys who wouldn't dream of waving their dicks about.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

maomao said:


> You're probably right that a small proportion would. And a small proportion of girls would probably taunt the majority of boys who wouldn't dream of waving their dicks about.



That's true too. So it would be a disaster.


----------



## ash (Sep 10, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Didn't used to be, but fortunately hospitals copped on to the fact that locating accessible toilets in the gendered blocks meant losing capacity AND was causing disabled people with mobility problems some big issues (the entrance door and isolating door, especially), so they started locating them more rationally.


It can be a real problem for blind people who need theIr other sex partners to take them to the loo if the disabled toilet is in a same sex facility. 
Some accessable toilets are inaccessible to my husband as they are designed with wheelchair users in mind and have buttons to press to open, lock and close the door and he hasn't a clue where these are. He's been locked in before. 
Unisex toilets are a godsend to us especially in pubs as if they haven't a disabled toilet he can't go to the loo which basically means we can't stay. Fumbling around a gents loo looking or feeling for a urinal or cubical not sure what or whom you might grab really isn't pleasant.


----------



## maomao (Sep 10, 2017)

scifisam said:


> That's true too. So it would be a disaster.


Probably. 

It feels like a shame because if kids could be more sensible about the little stuff like this then maybe they'd grow up with less hang ups and prejudices about sex and gender. But that's probably going to take a bit more effort than just slinging them all in the same bog and hoping it works out.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

maomao said:


> Probably.
> 
> It feels like a shame because if kids could be more sensible about the little stuff like this then maybe they'd grow up with less hang ups and prejudices about sex and gender. But that's probably going to take a bit more effort than just slinging them all in the same bog and hoping it works out.



In a way, but I really think expecting kids to act that sensibly is asking too much of them. They're only human. And although girls can sometimes use urinals with practice they can't most of the time (and IME it requires exposing more of your body than for boys) so having urinals would decrease the facilities available for them.

Have lots of cubicles for any gender all with sinks and almost floor to ceiling walls and kids can piss and shit in peace plus deal with menstruation (or other medical issues like stoma bags) and just have a place to go and be alone for a couple of minutes.


----------



## ash (Sep 10, 2017)

I asked my 13 year old and she thought it was fine which I was surprised at. When I asked about periods she didn't think boys would be interested (maybe we are all a bit out of touch regarding teenagers perceptions).  She said if they had an issue unisex toilets would make them soon get over it.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

ash said:


> I asked my 13 year old and she thought it was fine which I was surprised at. When I asked about periods she didn't think boys would be interested (maybe we are all a bit out of touch regarding teenagers perceptions).  She said if they had an issue unisex toilets would make them soon get over it.



It depends what kind of toilets you're talking about but yeah, I'd imagine teenagers these days would be fine with them in the best iteration like I outlined above. Girls would love having more privacy and more private-use sinks and a lot of boys would too. 

The BBC show where they combined boys and girls loos is a bit misleading, really. Primary school loos tend to have cubicles with very low divisions between them. The show asked different they shared loos with their siblings at home, but that's different - at home their loos will be in one walled room and even if they sometimes share them openly (one kid in the bath, another desperate for the loo) it's with someone they know very well. So it's rather different to what they encountered at school.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Sep 10, 2017)

The best unisex loos I've seen are in the Italian pizza chain, Milanos. Every toilet is individual with floor to ceiling walls and a proper full door. A little room with a toilet and a sink and sanitary bin.
There's a row of 8 of these units.
I think this would be perfect in secondary schools.


----------



## Athos (Sep 10, 2017)

maomao said:


> Unless the toilet is very badly designed you would have to make an effort to see a man's dick when he's using a urinal. Even without partitions. With partitions you'd have to make a really obvious effort.



Yes, I agree.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Sep 10, 2017)

urinals are so uncouth.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 10, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> The best unisex loos I've seen are in the Italian pizza chain, Milanos. Every toilet is individual with floor to ceiling walls and a proper full door. A little room with a toilet and a sink and sanitary bin.
> There's a row of 8 of these units.
> I think this would be perfect in secondary schools.


Yes, I've seen loads of loos like that in restaurants and they work really well.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 10, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> The best unisex loos I've seen are in the Italian pizza chain, Milanos. Every toilet is individual with floor to ceiling walls and a proper full door. A little room with a toilet and a sink and sanitary bin.
> There's a row of 8 of these units.
> I think this would be perfect in secondary schools.


Agreed. That's just what I've been saying would be the best option.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2017)

dialectician said:


> urinals are so uncouth.


I don't mid urinals but the stainless steel troughs in old pubs are a bit much imo.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 10, 2017)

maomao said:


> Probably.
> 
> It feels like a shame because if kids could be more sensible about the little stuff like this then maybe they'd grow up with less hang ups and prejudices about sex and gender. But that's probably going to take a bit more effort than just slinging them all in the same bog and hoping it works out.



It takes time to find out how you are, where you belong, what makes you the same, what makes you different, who do you want to be etc, all the big questions of adolescence and obvious in children much younger than that. When kids are in the process of growing and becoming themselves in a constant state of change what group you're part of can be very important, imo it's not just a culture imposed by adults.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Sep 10, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't mid urinals but the stainless steel troughs in old pubs are a bit much imo.



Oh I don't mind being uncouth, ive pissed on a police car after all.


----------



## Red Cat (Sep 10, 2017)

scifisam said:


> It depends what kind of toilets you're talking about but yeah, I'd imagine teenagers these days would be fine with them in the best iteration like I outlined above. Girls would love having more privacy and more private-use sinks and a lot of boys would too.
> 
> The BBC show where they combined boys and girls loos is a bit misleading, really. Primary school loos tend to have cubicles with very low divisions between them. The show asked different they shared loos with their siblings at home, but that's different - at home their loos will be in one walled room and even if they sometimes share them openly (one kid in the bath, another desperate for the loo) it's with someone they know very well. So it's rather different to what they encountered at school.



They just started separating the girls and boys to get undressed for PE in my eldest's year 5 class. She shrugged and said she's not bothered either way, that they've been getting undressed in front of eachother since they were five, so knowing eachother definitely makes a difference. I was surprised by this as she's increasingly wanting her privacy at home now her body is changing.


----------



## pengaleng (Sep 11, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> I was ripped to pieces anyway. I can't help but think if there had been gn toilets at my school it might have been *marginally better* for me.




this, even if the difference is slight it's so massive


----------



## emanymton (Nov 2, 2017)

On the subject of school toilets

Secondary school criticised for installing CCTV in pupil toilet areas


----------



## porp (Nov 9, 2017)

Clair De Lune said:


> I think it's a great idea for a number of reasons. Firstly I don't think the segregation of sexes is useful at all, we are far more alike than people would have us believe.Maybe the boys (if indeed they were creating filth in male only loos) will have to learn to be cleaner- I mean surely they don't piss all over the shop at home  Girls toilets have graffiti and filth too though, believe me...but not in the schools that have regular cleaning and checks. If every toilet has a sanitary bin it will be an eye opener for the boys- something I see as a positive. There shouldn't be shame or secrecy around periods these days ffs. Privacy in the cubicle, so no real issue for girls changing a tampon etc. If I have ever got a bit of blood on my hand in a women's toilet I haven't exactly wandered out, holding it aloft for everyone to see, it would be no different in a gender neutral toilet. They are going in there for a piss, it really doesn't matter the gender of the person in the next cubicle.
> 
> But more than all that and yes I am biased because I have a trans son- trans people can finally go to the toilet without worrying. My son doesn't go to the loo for the whole day in school because he has no access to gender neutral toilets and doesn't feel comfortable in the girls or boys.



Such an important point about the cleanliness -  the filthy loos are a barrier to learning and a hazard to health as some children spend the day in discomfort rather than shit at school. I also hope that this kind of thing would end the use of toilets as a place for bullying. I'm so glad that your son has a place that he can now use in more comfort.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

tim said:


> As a man who has rarely had to queue to use a public toilet I would think that we'll designed unisex toilets in all public places would at least make life a little more equal. I went into a McDonald's on Oxford Street a couple of weeks ago and there was a long line of women waiting for the lavatory, and free stalls in the gents.


That’s because blokes bogs have urinals which cope with greater numbers and free up trap space, and most blokes don’t spend several minutes brushing their hair and fucking about with makeup. This reason alone would have me voting against mixed toilets.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 9, 2017)

When I had hair, I'd spend a minute or two brushing it. Now I just concentrate on the anti-wrinkle creams...


----------



## scifisam (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> That’s because blokes bogs have urinals which cope with greater numbers and free up trap space, and most blokes don’t spend several minutes brushing their hair and fucking about with makeup. This reason alone would have me voting against mixed toilets.



Those are things people do at the sinks, not usually in the loos. Women take longer in the loo because of clothes design, body design and periods.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

But you're suggesting that the sinks be put in the cubicles ...


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> That’s because blokes bogs have urinals which cope with greater numbers and free up trap space, and most blokes don’t spend several minutes brushing their hair and fucking about with makeup. This reason alone would have me voting against mixed toilets.



Most women don’t either.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)




----------



## D'wards (Nov 9, 2017)

Sophie Hagen, the comic, insists on the khazis being gender neutral at her gigs. She posted up a picture of the signs on the toilets "GENDER NEUTRAL TOILET (with urinal)". 

But as a hairy arse bloke i would not use the ladies even with the sign. I know this is not in the spirit of which it is intended, but its so ingrained in me that the female toilets are totally out of bounds, and only a pervert or deviant would go in there if not a plumber or medic or something practical.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> But you're suggesting that the sinks be put in the cubicles ...



True! I'd forgotten. The overall waiting time would be shorter though.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

scifisam said:


> The overall waiting time would be shorter though.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> But you're suggesting that the sinks be put in the cubicles ...


Ah, but not mirrors.  Sink in the cubicle, mirror outside.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> Ah, but not mirrors.  Sink in the cubicle, mirror outside.


Hmmm, two choke points. Not sure that's the most efficient use of space. 

The other problem of course is that this mixed toilet nonsense may spawn deviant behaviour amongst young lads by encouraging them to sit down to piss.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Hmmm, two choke points. Not sure that's the most efficient use of space.
> 
> The other problem of course is that this mixed toilet nonsense may spawn deviant behaviour amongst young lads by encouraging them to sit down to piss.


most toilets are incredibly badly designed. for example, you push doors to enter but pull to exit. yet we all know many people who use toilets don't wash their hands - surely on the way out you should be able to push the door with your foot, for example. and so often you see driers right over counters. what the fuck's the point of that? it means dirty water's being blown into the air. not to mention so many cubicles being tiny... toilets seem to be designed as the last thing in a building when all the important stuff's been taken care of. but seeing as everyone needs to use them, a little more thought really ought to go into them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> That’s because blokes bogs have urinals which cope with greater numbers and free up trap space, and most blokes don’t spend several minutes brushing their hair and fucking about with makeup. This reason alone would have me voting against mixed toilets.


that and that you can never go when there's a woman about, pa.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2017)

emanymton said:


> On the subject of school toilets
> 
> Secondary school criticised for installing CCTV in pupil toilet areas


there's pubs with cctv in the toilets, for example the wetherspoons at the elephant had that years ago. sure i posted about it but it may have been when i was tolling


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> that and that you can never go when there's a woman about, pa.


I'd agree but some here seem to differ on that.

We've even had one fella talking about teachers getting kids cocks out to help them have a piss. I'm pretty sure that doesn't need to happen to kids aged 5 years +


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> I'd agree but some here seem to differ on that.
> 
> We've had one fella talking about teachers getting kids cocks out to help them have a piss. I'm pretty sure that doesn't need to happen to kids aged 5 years +


you're right, it should set alarm bells ringing, pa.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


>



Yes, overall across genders.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Yes, overall across genders.


How?

You are removing facilities that take seconds to use by blokes, replacing them with ones that take minutes to use by women, and forcing the people who would use the faster facilities to congest the slower ones. That's without considering the lack of space efficiency given that 3 or 4 urinals can fit into the space taken up by one cubicle.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> How?
> 
> You are removing facilities that take seconds to use, replacing them with ones that take minutes, and forcing the people who would use the faster facilities to congest the slower ones. That's without considering the lack of space efficiency given that 3 or 4 urinals can fit into the space taken up by one cubicle.



 Men would need seconds longer (to open the door and hopefully lift the loo seat). They wouldn't instantly start combing their hair and doing their make-up just because they're in a cubicle. Like Spangles says, that's what the mirror area's for.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Men would need seconds longer (to open the door and hopefully lift the loo seat). They wouldn't instantly start combing their hair and doing their make-up just because they're in a cubicle. Like Spangles says, that's what the mirror area's for.


You missed my edit. Sorry Sam, there's absolutely no way it could be faster unless you installed fuckloads more cubicles. Athos was right.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 9, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> You missed my edit. Sorry Sam, there's absolutely no way it could be faster unless you installed fuckloads more cubicles. Athos was right.



Nah, saw the edit. Your maths is a bit off. And tbh I can't be arsed having the dance argument again on the same thread - I like a little variety in my bickering.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 9, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Nah, saw the edit. Your maths is a bit off. And tbh I can't be arsed having the dance argument again on the same thread - I like a little variety in my bickering.


Ok, you're wrong but we can bicker about something else. What if it was shown that mixed gender bogs encouraged lads to sit down to wee. Surely you'd change you mind about this then?


----------



## Sarah83 (Nov 15, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> They just started separating the girls and boys to get undressed for PE in my eldest's year 5 class.



My daughter's in secondary school, and obviously boys and girls have always got changed for PE since she's been there.  But last week she didn't have her PE kit and the school were quite happy to have her do the lesson in her underwear. So where is the line drawn?


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 15, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> My daughter's in secondary school, and obviously boys and girls have always got changed for PE since she's been there.  But last week she didn't have her PE kit and the school were quite happy to have her do the lesson in her underwear. So where is the line drawn?



I'd draw the line here.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 15, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> My daughter's in secondary school, and obviously boys and girls have always got changed for PE since she's been there.  But last week she didn't have her PE kit and the school were quite happy to have her do the lesson in her underwear. So where is the line drawn?


I find myself doubting this.


----------



## Sarah83 (Nov 15, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> I'd draw the line here.


I know! But give an inch


----------



## Sarah83 (Nov 15, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> I find myself doubting this.


Doubting what?


----------



## Red Cat (Nov 15, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> I know! But give an inch



I meant I'd draw the line here with your posting.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 15, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> Doubting what?


The validity of your post.


----------



## Sarah83 (Nov 15, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> The validity of your post.


That's up to you. But why do you doubt it?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 15, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> That's up to you. But why do you doubt it?


Because I'm a doubting Thomas.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 15, 2017)

Oh hullo, it's you again. Can't you just fuck off you weird child clothing fetishist perve


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> That's up to you. But why do you doubt it?



Because it's clearly bullshit.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Nov 16, 2017)

I bet he wasn't even born in the 80's


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 16, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> My daughter's in secondary school, and obviously boys and girls have always got changed for PE since she's been there.  But last week she didn't have her PE kit and the school were quite happy to have her do the lesson in her underwear. So where is the line drawn?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 16, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> My daughter's in secondary school, and obviously boys and girls have always got changed for PE since she's been there.  But last week she didn't have her PE kit and the school were quite happy to have her do the lesson in her underwear. So where is the line drawn?



Liar, Liar, underwear on fire.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 16, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> My daughter's in secondary school, and obviously boys and girls have always got changed for PE since she's been there.  But last week she didn't have her PE kit and the school were quite happy to have her do the lesson in her underwear. So where is the line drawn?




ROFL...what country are you in? 
No secondary school in yhe UK or Ireland would do that....they'd be up for child abuse ...


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 16, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> ROFL...what country are you in?
> No secondary school in yhe UK or Ireland would do that....they'd be up for child abuse ...


It isn't a true story. It's some sick fuck who wanks whilst posting made up stories of girls in their underwear.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 16, 2017)

Sarah83 said:


> My daughter's in secondary school, and obviously boys and girls have always got changed for PE since she's been there.  But last week she didn't have her PE kit and the school were quite happy to have her do the lesson in her underwear. So where is the line drawn?


Get fucked, nonce.


----------



## Silas Loom (Nov 16, 2017)

Suggestion: put all threads about kids and schools in k&s/parenting rather than education & employment. Reduces the opportunity for weirdo pervert trolls.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 16, 2017)

Don't see why the boards need to change for just one nonce. Just ban the cunt.


----------



## Silas Loom (Nov 16, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> Don't see why the boards need to change for just one nonce. Just ban the cunt.



It's the best place for stuff about primary schools, really. Looking back at threads that might move, there was a discussion about sixth form essays, which is borderline, another bunfight about biometrics in canteens, and then the most recent after those was this bloke again: Toilet breaks year 2

So it wouldn't be too much of an imposition. And the mods can't really ban people who change their names and presumably are wise to the ways of cookies and proxies, until they out themselves.

Anyway, presumably someone has reported noncefeatures and a mod with a view on this might be along in a bit.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 16, 2017)

I've reported him.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 17, 2017)

He seems to be a repeat offender, here. No doubt he'll be back again. Seems pretty determined to get his jollies but why urban?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Nov 17, 2017)

krtek a houby said:


> He seems to be a repeat offender, here. No doubt he'll be back again. Seems pretty determined to get his jollies but why urban?


Not just urban. All over the fucking place.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2017)

Spymaster said:


> That’s because blokes bogs have urinals which cope with greater numbers and free up trap space, and most blokes don’t spend several minutes brushing their hair and fucking about with makeup. This reason alone would have me voting against mixed toilets.



The only reason you don't spend time brushing your hair is because you'd disturb the careful coiffure done by your stylist to hide yer bald patch.


----------



## extra dry (Nov 20, 2017)

Before or after a farting sesson?


----------



## A380 (Nov 23, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> ROFL...what country are you in?
> No secondary school in yhe UK or Ireland would do that....they'd be up for child abuse ...





Saul Goodman said:


> It isn't a true story. It's some sick fuck who wanks whilst posting made up stories of girls in their underwear.





Spymaster said:


> Get fucked, nonce.





krtek a houby said:


> He seems to be a repeat offender, here. No doubt he'll be back again. Seems pretty determined to get his jollies but why urban?





S☼I said:


> Not just urban. All over the fucking place.



This fuckwits been on a few times. But I’m  impressed by how quickly he gets pinged. Is this a technical fix or are people just really highly attuned to his MO?

Either way, top stuff.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 23, 2017)

A380 said:


> This fuckwits been on a few times. But I’m  impressed by how quickly he gets pinged. Is this a technical fix or are people just really highly attuned to his MO?
> 
> Either way, top stuff.


I can smell bullshit a mile away, and this reeked of it.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 23, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> I can smell bullshit a mile away, and this reeked of it.



It is a thread about toilets.....


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 23, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> I can smell bullshit a mile away, and this reeked of it.



deja moo


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 23, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> deja moo


Deja poo. The feeling you've heard this shit before.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Nov 23, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> Deja poo. The feeling you've smelled this shit before.



Ftfy


----------



## skyscraper101 (Oct 26, 2018)

SO... one year on and it's already taking shape. And guess what parents are "outraged"

Parents slam primary school over 'terrible' unisex toilets and tell pupils to come home to use the loo

Parents furious as Renfrewshire schools install gender neutral toilets

Parents Criticise Secondary School's Decision To Install Unisex Toilets


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 26, 2018)

skyscraper101 said:


> SO... one year on and it's already taking shape. And guess what parents are "outraged"
> 
> Parents slam primary school over 'terrible' unisex toilets and tell pupils to come home to use the loo
> 
> ...


So it seems to be going down like a shit sandwich.

There's a surprise.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 26, 2018)

I went to an event held at a school at the back end of last year. There were unisex toilets in the new build bit where the canteen and auditorium were. They absolutely stank of piss. I used the single sex ones in the Victorian building across the yard.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 26, 2018)

If they're going to do this, would make sense to do it in the infant schools first, then juniors etc.
Change the relevant elements of school culture slowly, with kids that have not known different.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 26, 2018)

I can't imagine anything worse than being a girl starting her periods knowing that a boy might be in the next cubicle. I used to try and unwrap the tampon absolutely silently in the girls' loo because I didn't want to be heard. 

I think I may not have gone to school at all during my period if I'd had to do it in a mixed sex toilet.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 26, 2018)

trashpony said:


> I can't imagine anything worse than being a girl starting her periods knowing that a boy might be in the next cubicle. I used to try and unwrap the tampon absolutely silently in the girls' loo because I didn't want to be heard.
> 
> I think I may not have gone to school at all during my period if I'd had to do it in a mixed sex toilet.



Yeah, I think there might be good arguments for being careful about taking the unisex loos beyond about age 11.
Hard to say, but a wholesale switchover smacks of blunt social engineering to me.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Oct 26, 2018)

We did this whole discussion on that thread about some poster taking his young daughter into the ladies, and it all kicked off a bit. Even shared hand washing areas which I've seen in clubs (e.g. Fabric) got a bit frowned at because someone women want to wash their moon cups out in private. Which is fair enough.

So the rest of the world meanwhile gets on with separate toilets/handwashing, and the consensus is, this is the best way. How difficult is it to just have separate toilets anyway?


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 26, 2018)

It's cheaper. That's the only reason. 

A school I know has no gents for the staff as is mostly female, male staff have to share a disabled loo with any pupils that also use it.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 26, 2018)

The post above is interesting in that there are three different manifestations of unisex.  

I think that, if there are floor to ceiling walls, and washing facilities, then that seems pretty harmless.  

In at least one of the schools there are  still single-sex facilities, which also seems reasonable.  

As for the “boys will piss on the seats” thing, it smacks entirely too much of “boys will be boys” to me.  They’re taught not to do it at home, so let’s not throw our hands up and pretend boys are somehow inevitably untrainable.  

I think if we want to delay the onset of performative gender, treating infant school age kids as effectively genderless has to be a good thing.  Then in ks2 we can begin to cater for those students undergoing early puberty.  

I think also, though, that it’s an awful state of affairs that any young girl is embarrassed to be heard unwrapping sanitary products.  Or that anyone is worried about someone hearing them go to the loo.  As a society we really ought to recognise how needlessly this stuff makes us miserable.  However, that’s not something that any individual child can just “get over”, so we do need to consider these things when planning school loos.


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## Edie (Oct 26, 2018)

Am I the only one whose boys piss on the floor/seat at home then?


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## skyscraper101 (Oct 26, 2018)

I don't know why if you're male, and you have the option of sitting down, just sit and piss. It's so much easier, and no mess.


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## trashpony (Oct 26, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> As for the “boys will piss on the seats” thing, it smacks entirely too much of “boys will be boys” to me. They’re taught not to do it at home, so let’s not throw our hands up and pretend boys are somehow inevitably untrainable.


My son sits down because I will not clean up his piss. For boys brought up in homes with adult males, this is seen as somehow weirdly emasculating (I know because it's been said to me). Fuck that.


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 26, 2018)

skyscraper101 said:


> I don't know why if you're male, and you have the option of sitting down, just sit and piss. It's so much easier, and no mess.


OK, if you say so, Orang Utan.


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## maomao (Oct 26, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> As for the “boys will piss on the seats” thing, it smacks entirely too much of “boys will be boys” to me. They’re taught not to do it at home, so let’s not throw our hands up and pretend boys are somehow inevitably untrainable.


You obviously don't use men's toilets very often. They/we piss on the seats all the fucking time. It's really annoying when you need a shit. I don't sit down but I do lift the seat.


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## spanglechick (Oct 26, 2018)

maomao said:


> You obviously don't use men's toilets very often. They/we piss on the seats all the fucking time. It's really annoying when you need a shit. I don't sit down but I do lift the seat.


I’m sure it happens.  That isn’t my point.  My point is that men and boys, when living with suitably bothered women, manage not to piss all over their bathrooms.  Pissing everywhere is a choice.   If you know you’re too drunk or too lacking in skill to aim, sit the fuck down and get over yourself.   

The idea that we have to accept behaviour from men and boys that they choose, but which makes life worse for others... just because they are men and boys is a fucking embarrassing bit of patriarchal doublethink.  It doesn’t bear the slightest bit of logical justification.


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## spanglechick (Oct 26, 2018)

Edie said:


> Am I the only one whose boys piss on the floor/seat at home then?


I suspect that’s what pedestal mats are for.  But it’s not inevitable.  I never saw a raised loo seat or un-mopped droplet of piss in my home loo until my early thirties, despite living with my dad, occasional partners of my sisters, and later, three different male flatmates and a cohabiting male partner.


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## kebabking (Oct 26, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> ...I think also, though, that it’s an awful state of affairs that any young girl is embarrassed to be heard unwrapping sanitary products.  Or that anyone is worried about someone hearing them go to the loo...



My wife, an otherwise entirely normal woman in her early 40's, hasn't had a dump at work _ever.
_
That's in single sex toilets.

I'd put good money on her opening her sanitary products under a blanket, surrounded by egg boxes and with white noise playing in the background.


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## Edie (Oct 26, 2018)

kebabking said:


> My wife, an otherwise entirely normal woman in her early 40's, hasn't had a dump at work _ever.
> _
> That's in single sex toilets.
> 
> I'd put good money on her opening her sanitary products under a blanket, surrounded by egg boxes and with white noise playing in the background.


I won’t/can’t if there’s anyone else in the toilets and I still feel embarrassed buying sanitary products. I’m 41


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 26, 2018)

Why do men piss on the toilet seat when there's usually a perfectly good sink nearby?


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## spanglechick (Oct 26, 2018)

Edie said:


> I won’t/can’t if there’s anyone else in the toilets and I still feel embarrassed buying sanitary products. I’m 41


Where do you think that came from? 

I don’t have that inhibition, but we used to wander in and out of the bathroom of someone was on the loo when I was little, so I wonder if it was stuff like that.


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> I suspect that’s what pedestal mats are for.  But it’s not inevitable.  I never saw a raised loo seat or un-mopped droplet of piss in my home loo until my early thirties, despite living with my dad, occasional partners of my sisters, and later, three different male flatmates and a cohabiting male partner.


Don’t be daft. When blokes are hammered they don’t even remember _having_ a piss, let alone the niceties in so doing. Anyway, women’s khazis, outside homes, are as bad, if not worse, than men’s.


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Edie said:


> Am I the only one whose boys piss on the floor/seat at home then?


Most of us mop up afterwards at home or in people’s houses when necessary. On the very rare occasions I forget or don’t realise, Mrs Spy goes fucking bananas.


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Don’t be daft. When blokes are hammered they don’t even remember _having_ a piss, let alone the niceties in so doing. Anyway, women’s khazis, outside homes, are as bad, if not worse, than men’s.



No. They really aren't. Men's bogs fucking stink of piss and have piss everywhere. Women's bogs can be grim ofc but it's rare that I gag when I go in.


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## Steel Icarus (Oct 27, 2018)

State of public male toilets is usually bad - pubs is vile, but even in workplaces or shops there's piss on the floor, idiots haven't lifted the seat, or haven't flushed. I hate it.

Luckily at home my son is too bone-idle to even stand for a wee so there's never any mess.

But back on topic, yes, infant toilets are ok to have unisex but even by the time children are eight or nine they don't want to share.


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> No. They really aren't. Men's bogs fucking stink of piss and have piss everywhere.


Not true at all. You’ve been obviously only hung out in poor quality blokes bogs. I’d happily have lunch in the gents in my local.

I could take you to loads of really nice ones


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## Edie (Oct 27, 2018)

Is it a bit of a myth then that blokes toilets stink of piss?


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Not true at all. You’ve been obviously only hung out in poor quality blokes bogs. I’d happily have lunch in the gents in my local.
> 
> I could take you to loads of really nice ones



Thanks. But no.


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## Edie (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster i think you should conduct some science. For each 10 of the next public bogs you go into (work, pubs, wherever) you should rate them between 1 (home- I have no doubt about Mrs Spy’s standards) and 10 (trainspotting). And report back.


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## skyscraper101 (Oct 27, 2018)

S☼I said:


> Luckily at home my son is too bone-idle to even stand for a wee so there's never any mess.



He's just smart. There's no rule that males should stand to piss. If its more effort, and messier, then why stand?


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Edie said:


> Is it a bit of a myth then that blokes toilets stink of piss?


Some do. Poorly kept urinals can honk a bit sometimes but it depends where you go. Any publican worth their salt will consider the state of the bogs a benchmark of the establishment. Obviously there are occasions when someone will puke or piss all over the place between inspections but that happens in women’s bogs too.

The occasions you find a smelly men’s toilet are the exception, not the rule.


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## Edie (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Some do. Poorly kept urinals can honk a bit sometimes but it depends where you go. Any publican worth their salt will consider the state of the bogs a benchmark of the establishment. Obviously there are occasions when someone will puke or piss all over the place between inspections but that happens in women’s bogs too.
> 
> The occasions you find a smelly men’s toilet is the exception, not the rule.


Interesting...


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 27, 2018)

Nah. I can smell the men's just walking past.


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Edie said:


> Spymaster i think you should conduct some science. For each 10 of the next public bogs you go into (work, pubs, wherever) you should rate them between 1 (home- I have no doubt about Mrs Spy’s standards) and 10 (trainspotting). And report back.


That’s actually a great thread idea. I’m out with my lad this afternoon so if I remember I’ll take some photos to start it with.


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## DownwardDog (Oct 27, 2018)

Edie said:


> Is it a bit of a myth then that blokes toilets stink of piss?



More do than don't in my experience.

I was recently in a brothel in Perth. For the record, I wasn't punting, I was picking up my mate who was fixing their IT. A woman, who looked like Roy Barraclough, came out of the bogs wearing marigolds and said in an incongruous Joanna Lumley voice, "Why do men have to fucking piss everywhere?"


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> Nah. I can smell the men's just walking past.


Again mate, I reckon this is probably more indicative of the establishments you frequent than the general rule. Let’s see how the thread goes.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That’s actually a great thread idea. I’m out with my lad this afternoon so if I remember I’ll take some photos to start it with.


get yer boy to take them


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Again mate, I reckon this is probably more indicative of the establishments you frequent than the general rule. Let’s see how the thread goes.



Well you are quite posh, even though you use the word mate!


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> Well you are quite posh, even though you use the word mate!


I don’t think I’ve ever been called that before. Not sure how to take it, tbh!


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever been called that before. Not sure how to take it, tbh!


yeh well after you turned up to the recent drinks in the elephant dressed like roger moore in james bond it's the sort of thing you should expect


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well after you turned up to the recent drinks in the elephant dressed like roger moore in james bond it's the sort of thing you should expect


 I was going for Daniel Craig


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I was going for Daniel Craig


yeh but you were wearing this


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh well after you turned up to the recent drinks in the elephant dressed like roger moore in james bond it's the sort of thing you should expect


That reminds me though; even the bloke's downstairs there didn't stink, did it? And that's a 'Spoons. In Elephant and Castle!


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That reminds me though; even the bloke's downstairs there didn't stink, did they? And that's a 'Spoons. In Elephant and Castle!


you pointed out on the night that every so often a crack team of five went in and swabbed the floor

the ladies was a bit whiffy tho


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but you were wearing this
> 
> View attachment 150847


Get rid of the epaulettes and cuff straps and I love that jacket. Unbuttoned pocket fail though.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Get rid of the epaulettes and cuff straps and I love that jacket. Unbuttoned pocket fail though.


you said the epaulettes were why you bought the jacket


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I was going for Daniel Craig



Daniel Craig is hot though 

Eta sorry that wasn't meant to be mean.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> Daniel Craig is hot though
> 
> Eta sorry that wasn't meant to be mean.


(((((Spymaster)))))


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> (((((Spymaster)))))



PMs of support are rolling in.


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## Spymaster (Oct 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> (((((Spymaster)))))



Spy, in not as hot as Daniel Craig shocker.

I'll get over it


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> PMs of support are rolling in.


(((((Spymaster)))))


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 27, 2018)

I think the smelliest mens bogs tend to be in the sort of places where the ladies only exists because the council made them install them in about 1982. Even a lot of now thoroughly done up and gentrified places with visibly very clean gents have that 'hundred years of piss' scent they can't quite shift.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think the smelliest mens bogs tend to be in the sort of places where the ladies only exists because the council made them install them in about 1982. Even a lot of now thoroughly done up and gentrified places with visibly very clean gents have that 'hundred years of piss' scent they can't quite shift.


either that or you're carrying round a scent with you


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## keybored (Oct 27, 2018)

Edie said:


> Spymaster i think you should conduct some science. For each 10 of the next public bogs you go into (work, pubs, wherever) you should rate them between 1 (home- I have no doubt about Mrs Spy’s standards) and 10 (trainspotting). And report back.


Trapadvisor?


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 13, 2018)

Toilet update

Unisex toilet block at East Lothian school sparks furious social media row


> Education bosses said the design was in keeping with modern secondary schools and major public facilities in Scotland, pointing out that the cubicles are completely enclosed to protect privacy. But it led to an angry debate on the town’s online community Facebook page after one grandmother expressed her initial “disgust” at the move. She said: “In a high school full of teenagers with raging hormones what the h*ll are they thinking this is a recipe for disaster.”


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## weepiper (Nov 13, 2018)

The cubicles are enclosed but the sinks aren't and they don't have a door on the main entrance. No-one female who's ever menstruated was involved in the design of these rooms 
I wonder if any girls will even use them or if they will just become de facto the boys' toilets.


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 13, 2018)

I agree girls need private wash basins and separate facilities. It’s unacceptable that they should be expected to wash mensrual blood and mooncups around boys.

I’ve never seen it in a workplace or a university. So why are they trying to make it normal in schools?


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## Edie (Nov 13, 2018)

Is it just me that would worry about the increased chance of them going for a shag in there, or in fact of sexual assault? I have no idea any more.


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## trashpony (Nov 13, 2018)

I can't imagine anything worse than having to do that rustling of paper and peeling off strips if I thought there might be a boy in the next cubicle. It was bad enough when I was in girl only toilets.


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## Spymaster (Nov 13, 2018)

Why are schools pressing ahead with this so obviously shit idea?

Who is getting what out of this?


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## spanglechick (Nov 13, 2018)

Edie said:


> Is it just me that would worry about the increased chance of them going for a shag in there, or in fact of sexual assault? I have no idea any more.


I can only assume that this is behind the lack of door?

Shit idea, anyway.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 13, 2018)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think the smelliest mens bogs tend to be in the sort of places where the ladies only exists because the council made them install them in about 1982. Even a lot of now thoroughly done up and gentrified places with visibly very clean gents have that 'hundred years of piss' scent they can't quite shift.


I do quite miss the old-style trough, chasing a fag butt from one end to the other. Rarely seen nowadays. 

I'm pretty conflicted over the idea of unisex loos. In principle they seem right, but in practice, I think I'm too much of a victim of my conditioning to fully feel comfortable with them. Still remember the first time a went to a loo in France as a teenager, frozen there confused, a woman standing at the basin pointing at the cubicle with a dismissive 'ici'. It would be good not to have that hang-up, but bit late now, I think. 

A couple of unisex/gender-neutral loos I've been in recently had an odd design. They both looked like a gents, with a cubicle, a basin and a urinal. Again, my hang-ups no doubt, but I think I'd feel inhibited with a woman washing her hands behind me while I'm trying to piss. Bad enough with a bloke there. And I'm sure many women wouldn't want to be there either. In the places I've seen this, it seems to me mostly an excuse to save some money by just having one loo.


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