# welsh to appear in all uk passports - d'you agree?



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

> WELSH is to appear on all UK passports, culture minister Alun Pugh said last night.
> 
> The move follows discussions between Assembly ministers and the Home Office.
> 
> ...


http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk...line=welsh-on-all-uk-passports-name_page.html

what d'you reckon? good idea or crap one?


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## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> what d'you reckon? good idea or crap one?



Good.


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## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

I think it's a good idea, can't really see why anybody would have much of a problem with it.


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## layabout (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk...line=welsh-on-all-uk-passports-name_page.html
> 
> what d'you reckon? good idea or crap one?



Crap. English should be the official language of Europe. No other language should be on the passports.

Oh yeah, we should have those big black leather passports back. They were good for slapping jumped up foreign officials with.


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## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

Don't really care what they print inside a passport. One way or another I could not care. 

Can't see what all the fuss is about


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## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> Crap. English should be the official language of Europe. No other language should be on the passports.
> 
> Oh yeah, we should have those big black leather passports back. They were good for slapping jumped up foreign officials with.


yeh. and we should get those big white fivers back, when the pound was a real currency we used them etc etc etc ad nauseam.


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Cornish not on the poll?


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## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Suits me jus' fine.


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## Donna Ferentes (Jan 27, 2005)

I think we should all speak Latin.


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## DrRingDing (Jan 27, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> I think we should all speak Latin.




Ponce!


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## DrRingDing (Jan 27, 2005)

I wanna know when Fen Lingo is gunna be recognised Boi!


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2005)

i am not really that arsed


if they intorduced diff passports for the diff areas i may be but this is neither here nor there for me.

unless traveling to patagonia its not going to make much difference


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## jd (Jan 27, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> I think we should all speak Latin.



Typically extreme, Justin.  Medieval french would surely suffice.


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## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> Crap. English should be the official language of Europe. No other language should be on the passports.
> 
> Oh yeah, we should have those big black leather passports back. They were good for slapping jumped up foreign officials with.



On second thoughts...


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## Thumper Browne (Jan 27, 2005)

I've already written the Welsh in on mine, in biro!


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

i think its a load of wank

the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc

why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?

or am i missing something?


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## tobyjug (Jan 27, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> I think we should all speak Latin.



CUM SCRIPTURA DIVINA MULTIPLICITER EXPONI POSSIT, QUOD NULLI 

EXPOSITIONI ALIQUIS ITA PRAECISE INHAEREAT QUOD, SI CERTA RATIONE 

CONSTITERIT HOC ESSE FALSUM, QUOD ALIQUIS SENSUM SCRIPTURAE ESSE 

ASSERERE PRAESUMAT: NE SCRIPTURA EX HOC AB INFIDELIBUS 

DERIDEATUR, ET NE EIS VIA CREDENDI PRAECLUDATUR.


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> i think its a load of wank
> 
> the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
> 
> ...




sits back with popcorn and beer and waits for ern...


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Pingu said:
			
		

> sits back with popcorn and beer and waits for ern...


Sits next to pingu - puts feet up.....


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## laptop (Jan 27, 2005)

jd said:
			
		

> Typically extreme, Justin.  Medieval french would surely suffice.



Je le veult 

I'm surprised at Layabout though, calling for the EU to impose a language on its citizens - and a mongrel language contaminated with Romanche that probably has hidden Catholic leanings, at that. 

Frisian is cool though... Ynstellings


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## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> CUM SCRIPTURA DIVINA MULTIPLICITER EXPONI POSSIT, QUOD NULLI
> 
> EXPOSITIONI ALIQUIS ITA PRAECISE INHAEREAT QUOD, SI CERTA RATIONE
> 
> ...



I have no idea what that means but it looks like the work of an ancient Roman AOL user.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

i think tobyjug's been at the zoider.


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> i think tobyjug's been at the zoider.


I think he's a Spingo man


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> i think its a load of wank
> 
> the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
> 
> ...



No, I'd say you've hit the mark fairly well.

Imagine if instead of spending money on putting the road signs in Welsh and English, they were just in England and the money saved went into the NHS.

...


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## layabout (Jan 27, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> Je le veult
> 
> I'm surprised at Layabout though, calling for the EU to impose a language on its citizens - and a mongrel language contaminated with Romanche that probably has hidden Catholic leanings, at that.
> 
> Frisian is cool though... Ynstellings



I was told by a Dutchman Frisian is very much related to English, more than any other European language. Dunno if it's true or not.


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> I was told by a Dutchman Frisian is very much related to English, more than any other European language. Dunno if it's true or not.



Is that what cows speak?


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## Gavin Bl (Jan 27, 2005)

> the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?



Not so much 'never got' as 'taken off us'.

(calmly walks away ............
...........
...........
.....and screams silently into cushion)


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## Shirl (Jan 27, 2005)

I think it's great. Now that I live in Wales I am pro all things Welsh.


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## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> I was told by a Dutchman Frisian is very much related to English, more than any other European language. Dunno if it's true or not.



It's historically the nearest language to English but it missed out on all the Norman input into the vocabulary so it's still quite different.


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## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc



The only bit of the passport that actually means anything is the page with your photo and nationality and that machine-readable bit in it - the rest is just decoration. There's no need for any language at all to be on the first page any more than there's any need for a lion and unicorn to be in the front.


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## tobyjug (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I think he's a Spingo man



True. My wife is the rough cider pisshead.
A modern meaning would be beliefs  are  only set in tablets of stone until proven otherwise.


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> No, I'd say you've hit the mark fairly well.
> 
> Imagine if instead of spending money on putting the road signs in Welsh and English, they were just in England and the money saved went into the NHS.
> 
> ...



*stokes up the BBQ and gets tranq gun ready for ern*


actually if this isnt tounge in cheek i find it a bit offensive. maybe we should just not bother with the english bits instead (would save on the green paint too)


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## Uralian (Jan 27, 2005)

I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language (whether it be cornish, frisian or welsh) is not on your passport you ought to get a life. Stop obsessing over politics, get a girlfriend/boyfriend, go to the movies, listen to some music, read some philosophy, ANYTHING...

I just don't get it. I don't go around dredging up my saxon roots and demanding variations of german (again, dead languages/cultures) to be artificially reanimated by the state because they lost out in the dog-eat-dog of linguistic adoption.

"Good is what men like"
-Hobbes

(ie, let the linguistic market decide)


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

Pingu said:
			
		

> *stokes up the BBQ and gets tranq gun ready for ern*
> 
> 
> actually if this isnt tounge in cheek i find it a bit offensive. maybe we should just not bother with the english bits instead (would save on the green paint too)



Why do you find it quite offensive? I find it offensive that someone decided to spend extra money on putting Welsh on road signs. To me that is a waste of money.

But this is getting away from the point. As someone else already mentioned, it really matters very little what languages are on a passport as the the photo part and barcode are the most important parts.

G


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

Uralian said:
			
		

> I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language (whether it be cornish, frisian or welsh) is not on your passport you ought to get a life. Stop obsessing over politics, get a girlfriend/boyfriend, go to the movies, listen to some music, read some philosophy, ANYTHING...
> 
> I just don't get it. I don't go around dredging up my saxon roots and demanding variations of german (again, dead languages/cultures) to be artificially reanimated by the state because they lost out in the dog-eat-dog of linguistic adoption.



Bravo to that man there.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jan 27, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> CUM SCRIPTURA DIVINA MULTIPLICITER EXPONI POSSIT, QUOD NULLI
> 
> EXPOSITIONI ALIQUIS ITA PRAECISE INHAEREAT QUOD, SI CERTA RATIONE
> 
> ...



How dare you sir!  You are a cad and a bounder!

Hoc


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## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

The Welsh do like to bang on about being Welsh, Pingu

"We've got out own language you know? We must have it on our passport"


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Not so much 'never got' as 'taken off us'.



just like every other province of the united kingdom?


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Uralian said:
			
		

> I just don't get it. I don't go around dredging up my saxon roots and demanding variations of german



Because you're the incomer


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## Pingu (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Why do you find it quite offensive? I find it offensive that someone decided to spend extra money on putting Welsh on road signs. To me that is a waste of money.
> 
> But this is getting away from the point. As someone else already mentioned, it really matters very little what languages are on a passport as the the photo part and barcode are the most important parts.
> 
> G




i find it offensive because what you are saying is that the language of the country in which the signs are should not be there. Like it or not there are a lot of Welsh speakers in Wales and their numbers are actually growing.

maybe you should tell the french or the germans that they should not have the road signs in their language too. after all the english have beaten them in various wars too


I am not that hung up about this and do agree that having welsh on a passport will mean very little but maybe part of the problem some welsh people have with some english people is a lack of understanding on the part of the English when it comes to what offends Welsh People.

anyhow i need to get comfy again for when ern spots this.. marshmellow anyone?


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## Uralian (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Because you're the incomer


 Well I think it's all a psychological-political mania, induced by the grim blankness of modern, atomic life. People feel alienated from 'the system' so they start creating imagined pasts where 'people like us' lived in a situated, communitarian utopia before 'they' (ie, the culture that they are fully a part of and yet despair of) took it all away.

If you don't like your life, improve it. Don't go creating confucianistic imagined utopias and blaming it all on the system. That's losers talk.


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

i dont understand whats offensive either about not being arsed about welsh

we have to speak english where i come from, but its actually helped me travel more than a few hundred miles from where i was born so it aint that bad


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## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

_I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language _ 

In what sense do you consider Welsh to be a dead language?


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## Batboy (Jan 27, 2005)

Sod the squash and squelsh! ....I want cor blimey cocknee riming slang broot back on passports!


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## tom k&e (Jan 27, 2005)

why d0n\'7 7h3y pu7 13375p34k 0n 0ur p455p0r75. 7h3r3\'5 pr08481y m0r3 p30p13 7h47 u53 '7, 4nd 7h3y\'r3 c3r74'n1y m0r3 'mp0r74n7 7h4n 7h3 fuck'n6 w315h


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## Batboy (Jan 27, 2005)

tom k&e said:
			
		

> why d0n\'7 7h3y pu7 13375p34k 0n 0ur p455p0r75. 7h3r3\'5 pr08481y m0r3 p30p13 7h47 u53 '7, 4nd 7h3y\'r3 c3r74'n1y m0r3 'mp0r74n7 7h4n 7h3 fuck'n6 w315h




Cos the days of passports are numbered?


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Uralian said:
			
		

> Well I think it's all a psychological-political mania, induced by the grim blankness of modern, atomic life. People feel alienated from 'the system' so they start creating imagined pasts where 'people like us' lived in a situated, communitarian utopia before 'they' (ie, the culture that they are fully a part of and yet despair of) took it all away.
> 
> If you don't like your life, improve it. Don't go creating confucianistic imagined utopias and blaming it all on the system. That's losers talk.




I do like my life - it's fucking fab. But I'd aslo like for my culture not to be wiped out entirely. The Cornish culture certainly isn't some imagined utopia - it's very real.  I haven't blamed anything on any system - are you quite well? 
Anyway - my original post was pretty tongue in cheek. I doubt that having an option for cornish language on passports would be of much use and actually doesn't interest me. Seeing English Heritage signs on Cornish historical sites though - that's a different thing entirely.


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## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

1 where does it say that the Welsh demanded it   
2 the road signs are not in Welsh in england are they    only in Wales
 and you're quite welcome to stay your side of the bridge
3 ninjaboy, uralian, gerardm and specially layabout fuckoff with your vitriol   

simple question at start of the thread, no need for this shit again   


personally don't care, would rather have a big hard red dragon on the front mind


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## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.


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## shagged toffee (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.



What about?


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## kyser_soze (Jan 27, 2005)

If you're from Wales fine, but on all UK passports? Don't really see the point meself...

TBH I'm more insulted by having to pay £5 to get into Wales in the first place and yet it's free to get back into civilisation...


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.



Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.

Grow up. And if you have to resort to using the c-word then you are somewhat shallow and lacking in real argument.


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## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

tom k&e said:
			
		

> why d0n\'7 7h3y pu7 13375p34k 0n 0ur p455p0r75. 7h3r3\'5 pr08481y m0r3 p30p13 7h47 u53 '7, 4nd 7h3y\'r3 c3r74'n1y m0r3 'mp0r74n7 7h4n 7h3 fuck'n6 w315h



Hahaha.


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## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

thought u had a functioning brain kaiser


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.
> 
> Grow up. And if you have to resort to using the c-word then you are somewhat shallow and lacking in real argument.


 roflmao - the 'c' word! Are you for real?


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## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

shagged toffee said:
			
		

> What about?



Probably 'Paki' and 'Jewboy' jokes


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

Pingu said:
			
		

> i find it offensive because what you are saying is that the language of the country in which the signs are should not be there. Like it or not there are a lot of Welsh speakers in Wales and their numbers are actually growing.
> 
> maybe you should tell the french or the germans that they should not have the road signs in their language too. after all the english have beaten them in various wars too



I will stand to be correct but it seems that Welsh is not even an official language of Wales. According to the EU it is classed as a 'Regional or Minority Language'. Yes it is used by government bodies as a language but that does not make it an official language.

Someone feel free to correct me.


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I'm not that riled about racist cunts like Uralian, gerardm, and ninjaboy - I'm sure they're all having a great laugh over on Stormfont.



still dont underdstand how i'm being racist  

i just think that its a bit poncey

places keep their identity by people doing amazing stuff and reflecting their surroundings, not by putting signposts up

I think if its that important to people then by all means let them put dragons and welsh language wherever they like, it just a bit odd to me coming from the north east of england which has a strong identity without any need for all the paraphenalia.....


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> roflmao - the 'c' word! Are you for real?



I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low. 

It even pains me to type it.

G


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## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

> Originally Posted by gerardm
> Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.



why do u consider Welsh to be a waste of time, why does it bother you   

grow the fuck up child


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> still dont underdstand how i'm being racist
> 
> i just think that its a bit poncey
> 
> ...



But if someone wanted to come and put all your signs in welsh how would you feel?


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## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> still dont underdstand how i'm being racist
> 
> i just think that its a bit poncey
> 
> ...



Its not 'paraphenalia' its people Language FFS


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## kyser_soze (Jan 27, 2005)

ddraig said:
			
		

> thought u had a functioning brain kaiser



Thought you had a sense of humour.

I take a ton of shit coming from Essex but don't scream about it...Jesus...


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> G



Have a hobnob and a sit down - you'll be fine. 

Cunt is pretty much a common currency round here - how do you cope? 
lol


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I will stand to be correct but it seems that Welsh is not even an official language of Wales. According to the EU it is classed as a 'Regional or Minority Language'. Yes it is used by government bodies as a language but that does not make it an official language.
> 
> Someone feel free to correct me.



Looking into this further, the UK has no official language. The EU recognises languages for officialdom; English is one of them, Welsh is not.

Interesting.

G


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> But if someone wanted to come and put all your signs in welsh how would you feel?



well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?


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## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low.
> 
> It even pains me to type it.
> 
> G



Well if you dont want to be called a Cunt dont act like one


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Have a hobnob and a sit down - you'll be fine.
> 
> Cunt is pretty much a common currency round here - how do you cope?
> lol



chocolate hobnob if you have any.

whilst witnessing someone else being called a cunt is bad, it's somewhat worse when you are being called one yourself.

either way, it's a horrible word.


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Looking into this further, the UK has no official language. The EU recognises languages for officialdom; English is one of them, Welsh is not.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> G




I cvould do with some input from Ground Elder or somoene on this but I think our MP for West Cornwall has got the EU to recognise Cornish as an official language. I may be completely wrong - it's rare but it happens 

I'm right. They do recognise it as an official minority language
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3503716


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## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Looking into this further, the UK has no official language. The EU recognises languages for officialdom; English is one of them, Welsh is not.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> G



Unfortunately for you, Welsh and English are official languages of government in Wales, and have been since the Welsh Language Acts of 1967 and 1993. They are of equal status- which is why acts of government relating to wales are produced bilingually.

Who was it who said this place had got progressively more right wing recently?


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?


Welsh people do indeed speak english but it's not their national language.


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## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?



The signs have been bilingual for as long as I remember (I'm 32).

Around 500,000 people speak Cymraeg fluently, many more have some knowledge of the language.  Its a living breathing language, and in some areas of the country the majority language.

It was only at the start of the 20th Century that it became the minority language, after campaigns to stamp it out by London, fortunately it survived and is now growing again.


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## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

10 years!!!
you having a giraffe?



> I think if its that important to people then by all means let them put dragons and welsh language wherever they like, it just a bit odd to me coming from the north east of england which has a strong identity without any need for all the paraphenalia.....



put some whippets on your fukin signs for all i care
<gets SoH back>  see KS   

oh and gerardm - see you next tuesday, better?




















CUNT


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## kyser_soze (Jan 27, 2005)

> Who was it who said this place had got progressively more right wing recently?



Someone on the opposite side to those who say it's a 'left wing' place...both usually get jumped on because it's a 'no-wing' place...

And taking the piss out of Wales isn't right wing...


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## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?


What the fuck are you on about?


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## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I cvould do with some input from Ground Elder or somoene on this but I think our MP for West Cornwall has got the EU to recognise Cornish as an official language. I may be completely wrong - it's rare but it happens



Kernewek is recognised at the level below Welsh and has been by both the UK government and the EU, since 2002. Both levels of governmetn recognise it as an official minority language- something which the UK governemnt is bound to defend and recognise, although not to the extent of conducting governemnt business relevant to Cornwall bilingually, which includes road signs.


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## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Kernewek is recognised at the level below Welsh and has been by both the UK government and the EU, since 2002. Both levels of governmetn recognise it as an official minority language- something which the UK governemnt is bound to defend and recognise, although not to the extent of conducting governemnt business relevant to Cornwall bilingually, which includes road signs.


Thank you kindly


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## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Imagine if instead of spending money on putting the road signs in Welsh and English, they were just in England and the money saved went into the NHS....


Piss weak troll.


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

I mean fair play and all that, but as someone from a part of england with a strong identity and pride, despite speaking english and not having a flag a passport, signposts etc it just seems a bit sad to me

and without wanting to offend the nationalists, is nationalism not a bit conservative really?


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## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> I mean fair play and all that, but as someone from a part of england with a strong identity and pride, despite speaking english and not having a flag a passport, signposts etc it just seems a bit sad to me
> 
> and without wanting to offend the nationalists, is nationalism not a bit conservative really?



ethnic nationalism of BNP- yes

civic nationalism of Plaid/SNP/MK/SDLP- no

regional identity of Geordies- no


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## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Piss weak troll.



I'm not trolling. Why do people always pull that one out of the bag when they disgaree with something said?


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## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

> as someone from a part of england with a strong identity and pride, despite speaking english and not having a flag a passport, signposts etc it just seems a bit sad to me




where's that jealous smiley   

didn't you have a resounding NO vote recently?  shame

maybe you could start another campaign, you'd get my support, when ya grow up


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## laptop (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> But if someone wanted to come and put all your signs in welsh how would you feel?



Great. How cool would the Tube map look? Pont yr Llundain, Ty Fawr...


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## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Uralian said:
			
		

> I think if you're seriously bothered that your near-dead language (whether it be cornish, frisian or welsh) is not on your passport you ought to get a life.


Please explain how a growing language (2001 census statistics show a 2.3% rise) spoken by over 20% of the population is   'near dead'?


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> What the fuck are you on about?



well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh, but scotland has an identity easily recognisable around the world despite not having an official language or 'special' passports


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## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Because I consider Welsh to be a waste of time as a language I am a 'racist cunt'.


Why's it a waste of time?


----------



## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I'm not trolling. Why do people always pull that one out of the bag when they disgaree with something said?




coz your point is not a point is it cummon?

how much difference do you think that would really make, an extra line of text?


start a campaign on the excess of traffic cones or something/anything would be more constructive


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh,


What are you basing that wild claim on?

Not history or fact, that's for sure.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh, but scotland has an identity easily recognisable around the world despite not having an official language or 'special' passports



Sheer ignorance again.

Scottish Gaelic is recognised as an official language the same as Welsh.

Why not try doing some research before posting?


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Why's it a waste of time?



Primarily because the % of people who JUST speak Welsh is tiny. Whilst I am not representative, I know a wide age range of Welsh speakers and they do not know anyone who just speaks Welsh.

That is why the langauge is totally different to German, French etc and why having road signs, official correspondance etc is a total waste of time and money.

G


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

ddraig said:
			
		

> where's that jealous smiley
> 
> didn't you have a resounding NO vote recently?  shame
> 
> maybe you could start another campaign, you'd get my support, when ya grow up



actually i couldnt give a fuck about a regional assembly, with regards to 
newcaslte i am bothered about

1) The football team

2) Getting the fuck out

wheres the 'missed the fuckin point' smiley


----------



## Uralian (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> ethnic nationalism of BNP- yes
> 
> civic nationalism of Plaid/SNP/MK/SDLP- no
> 
> regional identity of Geordies- no


 Read lenin lately?


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> well i wouldnt understand them, but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?


Your ignorance astounds me.

There's been signs written in Welsh for_ centuries_, because that's the _language the majority of the population _spoke for many hundreds of years.

Don't you know any history?


----------



## Pingu (Jan 27, 2005)

out of interest


should signs in urdu, chinese or other languages sometimes found within various communities in the UK also be removed and replaced with ones in english only?

i know the lcomparison is a loose one but if anyone suggested taking down the signs in soho with chinese writing on on the basis that its not the official language of the country they are in then I am guessing there would be various cries of racism etc etc. why is it different for welsh?


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Primarily because the % of people who JUST speak Welsh is tiny.


Completely wrong. 


> Full census figures published on Thursday reveal that more than 20% of people in Wales now speak Welsh. Figures revealed that 20.5% - more than one in five - of the population are Welsh speakers. This compares with 18.5% of Welsh speakers in the 1991 census.
> 
> In addition, more than 28% able to understand Welsh.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2755217.stm


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Sheer ignorance again.
> 
> Why not try doing some research before posting?



um, don't know sir

I know about scottish national identity from scottish films, books and bands

funnily enough i was completely unaware of the EU's official list of official languages being completely unaffected by it.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Primarily because the % of people who JUST speak Welsh is tiny. Whilst I am not representative, I know a wide age range of Welsh speakers and they do not know anyone who just speaks Welsh.
> 
> That is why the langauge is totally different to German, French etc and why having road signs, official correspondance etc is a total waste of time and money.
> 
> G



Approx 20 % of the population of Wales speaks Welsh- between 400,000 and 500,000 people.

In North and parts of West Wales- the Lleyn peninsula, Ceredigion, Gwynedd- the language is spoken as a living means of communication. The highest number of speakers, if memory serves, is is Caernarfon, where 80% plus have Welsh as a first language.

Do you live in wales? Do you know anything about the language other than a few daily mail style prejudices?

Doesn;t look that way, to be honest. hence editor's "piss weak troll".


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I'm not trolling. Why do people always pull that one out of the bag when they disgaree with something said?


I was assuming that someone posting up such ignorant and offensive material could only be a troll.

Or thick as shit.

Maybe it's the latter.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Uralian said:
			
		

> Read lenin lately?



No. 

Have you?

Or one of Nairn, Hechter, Gellner, or indeed a whole body of writing realting to differing catgories of regional/national/supranational identity & the diverse range of its political expression?


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Your ignorance astounds me.
> 
> There's been signs written in Welsh for_ centuries_, because that's the _language the majority of the population _spoke for many hundreds of years.
> 
> Don't you know any history?



sorry boss...

we dont get taught welsh history up here (dern it!)

i dont understand why i'm expected to research your country just to have an opinion about it


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> well the scottish dont seem to be take nationalism as seriously as the welsh,


Say goodbye to your piss weak argument:

"In fact, those living in Wales are more likely to consider themselves as British (35%) than Scotland, (27%) but less likely than those in England (48%)."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2755217.stm

If you don't want to appear so terminally clueless in the future you may want to research and compare the voting figures for the Scottish and Welsh assemblies.


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Approx 20 % of the population of Wales speaks Welsh- between 400,000 and 500,000 people.
> 
> In North and parts of West Wales- the Lleyn peninsula, Ceredigion, Gwynedd- the language is spoken as a living means of communication. The highest number of speakers, if memory serves, is is Caernarfon, where 80% plus have Welsh as a first language.
> 
> ...



Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?

Because so far you and editor haven't give me that.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> um, don't know sir
> 
> I know about scottish national identity from scottish films, books and bands
> 
> funnily enough i was completely unaware of the EU's official list of official languages being completely unaffected by it.



Why are you clogging up this thread with your ill informed drivel then?

I know, I'll go off to some gaming threads in the technology forum and intervene with helpful remarks like "what's a mouse" and "has anyone seen that new game, Pac-Man"....


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I was assuming that someone posting up such ignorant and offensive material could only be a troll.
> 
> Or thick as shit.
> 
> Maybe it's the latter.



I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.

G


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> i think its a load of wank
> 
> the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
> 
> ...




We don't, or at least I don't. The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of Welsh and Gaelic is a disgrace. Let's try and get our young people to learn to speak English properly, never mind redundant curiousities like Welsh and Gaelic.

Either Welsh and Gaelic are live languages in which case they don't need stste funding, or, they are dead and let's bury the fucking things.

I suspect that there are enough enthusiasts ensure the survival of both.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> i dont understand why i'm expected to research your country just to have an opinion about it


If you want to show people how ignorant you are, that's certainly a good way to go about it.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?
> 
> Because so far you and editor haven't give me that.



Fuck off back to Stormfront you racist prick. Would you agree with the Germans removing all French roadsigns in ww2?

Oh aye - of course you would - 88, 14 and God Save the Queen eh?


----------



## General Ludd (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> Gavin Bl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Given that nationalism (and the 'nation') is a modern phenomenem - late 18th Century/early 19th Century in Europe - it'd have been very tricky for a national identity to have been 'taken away' or 'never taken off' hundreds of years ago. It's like saying there were no major mergers between banks in 1086, the concept has no meaning in that time period. Welsh nationalism and national identity didn't emerge until the mid 19th century (which isn't do doubt that Welsh national identity isn't a real thing, just that like all nationalisms it is something modern and so appeals to ancient history make no sense and have no relevance). 

(For the really bored or boring: at the end of the 18th Century the United Kingdom was thought of as 3 *kingdoms*, Wales being a principality of England, whilst at the end of the 19th Century the United Kingdom had become 4 *nations*.)


----------



## Shirl (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> but welsh people speak english and the welsh signs have only been up about 10 years no?


Some older people where I live do not speak english, only Welsh.
Welsh is the first language round here for the majority.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?
> 
> Because so far you and editor haven't give me that.



I doubt if there is a single person left in Scotland who speaks only Gaelic, I should imagine that Wales is just the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninja said:
			
		

> i dont understand why i'm expected to research your country just to have an opinion about it


a whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the back of fools.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive.


Perhaps you might remind me when the holiday home burning campaign was taking place in Wales and then explain its relevance to this debate?


----------



## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

yeah well you're opinion ain't gonna stand up if it aon't informed eh!!   



and i get a slap if i talk to the elders in my village in english


----------



## Shirl (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.
> 
> G


I think you should come here and say that.


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Fuck off back to Stormfront you racist prick. Would you agree with the Germans removing all French roadsigns in ww2?
> 
> Oh aye - of course you would - 88, 14 and God Save the Queen eh?



Oh please. I can't think of a person who needs less saving than the friggin' Queen.

Shame you didn't say Nazis because we would have hit the Internet debate holy grail.


----------



## General Ludd (Jan 27, 2005)

> Would you agree with the Germans removing all French roadsigns in ww2?


There is a difference between making all signs in a language not understood by the local population (German signs in France) and making signs in just one of the languages understood by the local population (English signs in Wales).


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.
> 
> G



Ah-ha - 'assholes' - you're either an American Fascist troll, or some fat-necked bald Saxon inbred with eyes like piss'oles in the snow, and a predeliction for fucking Thai children....


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Right, give me a % then, as a total population of Wales. How many people either JUST speak Welsh or Welsh as a primary language to the point that their English is weak?


How does the ability of a Welsh speaker to speak other languages advance your 'argument'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I find the attitude of Welsh assholes who burn holiday homes ignorant and offensive. Or maybe they are thick as shit too.
> 
> G


it's said that it is better to keep quiet and have people believe you a fool, than open yr mouth and prove it.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> We don't, or at least I don't. The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of Welsh and Gaelic is a disgrace. Let's try and get our young people to learn to speak English properly, never mind redundant curiousities like Welsh and Gaelic.
> 
> Either Welsh and Gaelic are live languages in which case they don't need stste funding, or, they are dead and let's bury the fucking things.
> 
> I suspect that there are enough enthusiasts ensure the survival of both.



So, people who speak a language on a daily basis shouldn;t receive funding in order to help them speak it better?

Only "the Queen's English" is fit for state funding?

I doubt even Michael Forsyth or Gerald Warner would agree with you, you Tory unionist arse.

PS do you know how little is actually given to gaelic up here? facts? Figuyres? or is this yet another over-reaction to a scare story in the _Edinburgh evening News?_ The fact that it receives less than chicken feed from central government is contributing largely to its contemporary decline.

Still, your contempt for such rich and diverse cultures is duly noted.


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Sheer ignorance again.
> 
> Scottish Gaelic is recognised as an official language the same as Welsh.
> 
> Why not try doing some research before posting?



But they don't force kids to learn it in schools and brainwash them into a learning a dead language as part of their national identity*. They don't insist that the BBC do subtitles in Gaelic. Have stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.

Reminds me of the Basque provinces in Spain....


*OK They don't go to quite those lengths!


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Perhaps you might remind me when the holiday home burning campaign was taking place in Wales and then explain its relevance to this debate?



It was a filppant comment design to elicit a response. Whilst it was a few years back, there have rumblings it may be on the up again. I really hope not as, IMHO, whose assholes give the rest of Wales an extremely bad name.

G


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> ..., and a predeliction for fucking Thai children....


Line. Stepped over. 

Please don't do it again.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> There is a difference between making all signs in a language not understood by the local population (German signs in France) and making signs in just one of the languages understood by the local population (English signs in Wales).



No there isn't. The French could learn the Kraut tongue in a few weeks.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Line. Stepped over.
> 
> Please don't do it again.



Soz - just commenting on a popular English pastime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> No there isn't. The French could learn the Kraut tongue in a few weeks.


but they still refuse to speak english.


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Ah-ha - 'assholes' - you're either an American Fascist troll, or some fat-necked bald Saxon inbred with eyes like piss'oles in the snow, and a predeliction for fucking Thai children....



What the fuck? I call people assholes who burn holiday homes that belong to English people and you call me a Fascist?

I feel there is no point in continuing talking to you anymore.


----------



## In Bloom (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.


20% is a small percentage of the population is it?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

Well this thread seems to have unearthed all the lilywhite Britnat posters who joined en-masse from Stormfront a few months back...


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> It was a filppant comment design to elicit a response. Whilst it was a few years back, there have rumblings it may be on the up again. I really hope not as, IMHO, whose assholes give the rest of Wales an extremely bad name


So a tiny minority of people who took part in a minor campaign decades ago are still somehow giving Wales a 'bad name' because you detect some mysterious " rumblings" that it may happen again?

As a troll it's very, very weak and as an argument, it's positively embarrassing


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> It was a filppant comment design to elicit a response. Whilst it was a few years back, there have rumblings it may be on the up again. I really hope not as, IMHO, whose assholes give the rest of Wales an extremely bad name.
> 
> G



I Still can't believe people remember that, and go on about it - it was YEARS ago , and wasn't it only two or three cottages?


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> but they still refuse to speak english.



It's a fucking outrage - how dare they, pesky Frogs, what what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Well this thread seems to have unearthed all the lilywhite Britnat posters who joined en-masse from Stormfront a few months back...


  one does one's best.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> I doubt if there is a single person left in Scotland who speaks only Gaelic, I should imagine that Wales is just the same.



Well you imagine wrong then. When I was in hospital in Aberystwyth, a fair ammount of the old folks in there had real difficulty understanding the menu as it was only in English, and they'd often order the wrong thing if the nurses werent around to translate for them.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> But they don't force kids to learn it in schools and brainwash them into a learning a dead language as part of their national identity*. They don't insist that the BBC do subtitles in Gaelic. Have stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.
> 
> Reminds me of the Basque provinces in Spain....
> 
> ...



Actually, there is gaelic television on STV up here- just the same as S4C in Wales, only less extensive. plans are well advanced for a gaelic satellite channel, too.

I'm not sure what yr definition of a 'dead language', is, but I;d like to see the results of you going out in caernarfon on a friday night and telling the locals their language is dead.

I'll come and visit you in hospital afterwards.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> We don't, or at least I don't. The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of Welsh and Gaelic is a disgrace. Let's try and get our young people to learn to speak English properly, never mind redundant curiousities like Welsh and Gaelic.
> 
> Either Welsh and Gaelic are live languages in which case they don't need stste funding, or, they are dead and let's bury the fucking things.
> 
> I suspect that there are enough enthusiasts ensure the survival of both.



What? How much money does it actually cost to run off a few extra pamphlets and put an extra line on all the road signs? Do you actually have a figure for this or are you just presuming? There are people for whom Welsh is a first language. Neither Welsh nor Haelic are 'dead' languages though they've both come close. Every time a language dies we lose another thread of human culture. (Welsh and Gaelic are particularly interesting languages because of their Verb - Subject - Object word order which according to some linguists is the 'default' order of human language). My university actually pays people to stay in far flung corners of the world trying to record dying languages (google soas and endangered language program) precisely because languages are incredibly good records of people's cultures as well as being of central imprtance to people's cultural identity. Quite frankly, to so much as mention the fact that it costs a couple of extra quid to write street signs in 2 languages while billions are being spent slaughtering Iraqis is not just extremely reactionary but idiotic.


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> 20% is a small percentage of the population is it?



20% of us speak Welsh? Perhaps in a survey taking in Welsh town in Wales, on St. David's Day


----------



## In Bloom (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> 20% of us speak Welsh? Perhaps in a survey taking in Welsh town in Wales, on St. David's Day


Christ, how many fucking times 


> Census shows Welsh language rise
> Full census figures published on Thursday reveal that more than 20% of people in Wales now speak Welsh. Figures revealed that 20.5% - more than one in five - of the population are Welsh speakers. This compares with 18.5% of Welsh speakers in the 1991 census.
> 
> In addition, more than 28% able to understand Welsh.


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Actually, there is gaelic television on STV up here- just the same as S4C in Wales, only less extensive. plans are well advanced for a gaelic satellite channel, too.
> 
> I'm not sure what yr definition of a 'dead language', is, but I;d like to see the results of you going out in caernarfon on a friday night and telling the locals their language is dead.
> 
> I'll come and visit you in hospital afterwards.



Well if I went into any place on a Friday night and insulted anyone about what they hold close to their heart, I'd get a kicking. What's your point - because Welsh speaking muppets would kick my head in the language is alive n well?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> So, people who speak a language on a daily basis shouldn;t receive funding in order to help them speak it better?
> 
> Only "the Queen's English" is fit for state funding?
> 
> ...



Fuck off you fucking rude and patronising cunt.

The Gaelic college on Islay was given £1.5m in startup funds last year, my wife comes from there. I was brought up from the ages of three to fourteen in Harris, North Uist and  South Uist . Have you even vistited these places.

It would seem to be you who has fuck all idea on the subject.

From SE website

The 2001 Census recorded 65,674 people aged three or over as being able to speak, read, or write Gaelic - 1.3 per cent of the Scottish population.

The Executive provides £8.5m a year for Gaelic broadcasting. Grant is paid to the Gaelic Media Service (GMS).

Gaelic is the only language of teaching (other than English) for which the Executive provides specific funding. Specific grants have been increased to £3.034m over the past 5 years. In addition, £0.4m is allocated to Gaelic-medium pre-school education.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> But they don't force kids to learn it in schools and brainwash them into a learning a dead language as part of their national identity*. They don't insist that the BBC do subtitles in Gaelic. Have stations dedicated to a dead language that a small percentage speak.


You are aware, of course, that children taught throught the medium of Welsh have tended to do better in the curriculum and to show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations?

And that there is growing evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language?

And that growing numbers of English speaking parents are sending their children to Welsh schools?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/inwelsh.shtml

And how can you argue against these benefits?



> One of the advantages of being bilingual is having access to two cultures - two different worlds of experience. With a language comes idiom and sayings, folk stories and history, poetry, literature and music, both traditional and contemporary.
> 
> Reading and writing in two languages means a bilingual person can enjoy literature in both original languages. This can create a deeper understanding of different traditions and ways of thinking and behaving. The pleasures of reading novels, poetry and magazines and the enjoyment of writing to friends and family are all doubled for bilingual people.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> The Gaelic college on Islay was given £1.5m in startup funds last year, my wife comes from there. I was brought up from the ages of three to fourteen in Harris, North Uist and  South Uist . Have you even vistited these places.



That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> Christ, how many fucking times



Yeah I seen the stats. Very nice they are too, *20% of the people that have completed the survey (in Wales)* speak Welsh. Well fucking hell, knock me down with a feather. What's next? 20% of people from Newcastle use geordie words in their dialect


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?


norralot. at a guess.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Fuck off you fucking rude and patronising cunt.
> 
> The Gaelic college on Islay was given £1.5m in startup funds last year, my wife comes from there. I was brought up from the ages of three to fourteen in Harris, North Uist and  South Uist . Have you even vistited these places.
> 
> It would seem to be you who has fuck all idea on the subject.



A whole £1.5 million!!!!!

It's chickenfeed in governemnt spending terms. Less than chickenfeed, in fact.

What exactly is your problem with funsing a college, anyway? Somewhere I know far more about- being professionally linked to there- than you ever will.

Wanker. back to your Daily mail and Fox news.


----------



## In Bloom (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> Yeah I seen the stats. Very nice they are too, *20% of the people that have completed the survey (in Wales)* speak Welsh. Well fucking hell, knock me down with a feather.


You mean the national census that was sent out to everyone?  Lets not forget that this was during foot and mouth, so the more rural areas of Wales (where Welsh is likely more common) were cut off.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> You are aware, of course, that children taught throught the medium of Welsh have tended to do better in the curriculum and to show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations?
> 
> And that there is growing evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language?
> 
> ...



Exactly, given that children in Wales are more likely to have access to a proper second language environment than children learning French in England, it makes educational, and quite possibly economic sense for them to learn Welsh rather than the French or German that they'll have forgotten by the time their eightenn and is more likely to male them able to deal with other foreign languages than stale classes running through French verb conjugations.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> Yeah I seen the stats. Very nice they are too, *20% of the people that have completed the survey (in Wales)* speak Welsh.


So the figure could be higher. Or lower. Or exactly right.

But the school figures show a _definite _increase.


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

i just dont understand if wales is so important to people, that they consider it 'endangered'

what i was saying was that i'm just a normal dude. wouldnt consider myself ignorant at all, but i didnt know that scottish was a language but i knew scotland has a culture. not cos of a government campaign but cos of the good scottish films i've seen (funded by filmfour and the EU more than scotland btw) and books i've read

the welsh national identity seems to be on a par with the bagpipe brigade from scotland

personally i dont believe in nationalism at all, i am not proud of my english language or passport, it has been useful, and i recognise i am lucky to be born in a priveledged part of the world. but my identity comes from real life

if all else fails, go to wales

peace


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> You mean the national census that was sent out to everyone?  Lets not forget that this was during foot and mouth, so the more rural areas of Wales (where Welsh is likely more common) were cut off.



In Bloom-don't feed the troll.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?



Ionad Chaluim Chille Ile employs 4 people full-time and services up to 12 full-time students and four post-graduate research students annually


----------



## General Ludd (Jan 27, 2005)

> You mean the national census that was sent out to everyone? Lets not forget that this was during foot and mouth, so the more rural areas of Wales (where Welsh is likely more common) were cut off.


The census wasn't affected by foot and mouth, people in foot and mouth affected areas were posted the forms and allowed to post them back without having to have an Enumerator come round.


----------



## layabout (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low.
> 
> It even pains me to type it.
> 
> G



Yes but cunt is an English word, not Welsh, so I can't see what you are moaning about. Daft twat.


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> Yes but cunt is an English word, not Welsh, so I can't see what you are moaning about. Daft twat.



Seriously, what the hell are you going on about?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> That's really not a lot of money to open a college on. How many students do they have?



Seven.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> I swear all the time but I hate the word cunt. I think it is disgusting and pretty much the lowest of the low.
> 
> It even pains me to type it.
> 
> G


you are a poxy jackeen.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> Ionad Chaluim Chille Ile employs 4 people full-time and services up to 12 full-time students and four post-graduate research students annually



...and in time will become a vitally important component of the cultural & intellectual life of the Islands- a focus for those wishing to study in Gaelic that it's lacked since the C18th.


----------



## General Ludd (Jan 27, 2005)

> Ionad Chaluim Chille Ile employs 4 people full-time and services up to 12 full-time students and four post-graduate research students annually


That is a huge amount of money then. IIRC the standard funding is around £8000pa per higher education student.


> i didnt know that scottish was a language but i knew scotland has a culture.


It's not. Gaelic is a language but there is no Scottish as a language.


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> you are a poxy jackeen.



This really is becoming too painful for words.


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> You are aware, of course, that children taught throught the medium of Welsh have tended to do better in the curriculum and to show slightly higher performance in tests and examinations?
> 
> And that there is growing evidence that bilinguals tend to find it easier to learn a third language?
> 
> ...



I Personally just think that the language has no real use outside of Wales I can see why it would be easier to learn a third language if you already know two. But would it not be better to teach kids a widespread European language first, and Welsh third? Ability to speak German or Spanish is a damn site more useful imo.

I think there's a difference between holding onto your heritage and being ensuring the survival of it,  and using it as a measure of difference. To deliberately alienate the Welsh from the English and vice versa. Both parties are guilty of it.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Seven.



That's less than half what Pickman's claiming. Do you have a source? Doesn't seem particularly unreasonable, one and a half mill is a mere speck in terms of government funding and it's nice to see money spent on education rather than bombs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

what's so bloody painful about typing the word 'cunt'?

dropping a stone on yr foot's painful - but typing a word?


----------



## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

> *ninjaboy*i am not proud of my english language or passport



nutshell





goodbye


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> i think its a load of wank
> 
> the only reason it matters what country is written on your passport is when you go outside of the EU and why are they gonna give a fuck wether your english/welsh/from slough etc
> 
> ...



You're missing something. A brain!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> That's less than half what Pickman's claiming. Do you have a source? Doesn't seem particularly unreasonable, one and a half mill is a mere speck in terms of government funding and it's nice to see money spent on education rather than bombs.




my source is a paper from 2000. i fear sasaferrato's probably nearer the mark.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> A whole £1.5 million!!!!!
> 
> It's chickenfeed in governemnt spending terms. Less than chickenfeed, in fact.
> 
> ...



Thick cunt. I was a fairly fluent speaker of Gaelic in my youth. Can still follow a conversation, can you?

1.9% of Scots speak Gaelic.

The expenditure is a wonderful " Jobs for the boys " environment, a total and absolute waste of money.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> That is a huge amount of money then. IIRC the standard funding is around £8000pa per higher education student.



Remember the money was an endowment, not one year's funding



> It's not. Gaelic is a language but there is no Scottish as a language.



Well there are at least two distinct Scottish dialects of English as well as Scottish Gaelic which has some level of cross intelligibilty with but is distinct from Irish Gaelic. But there isn't a language called 'Scottish' no, probably because 'Scottish' is an English word.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> my source is a paper from 2000. i fear sasaferrato's probably nearer the mark.



My figure is from the Scottish Executive web site, and is if anything on the high side.


----------



## laptop (Jan 27, 2005)

Could someone please translate into Welsh: 

« Le vrai problème, c'est que les pauvres Anglophones ont peur q'on discute leurs faiblesses et le fragilité de leurs identités. Et ils ont raison. »


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> what's so bloody painful about typing the word 'cunt'?
> 
> dropping a stone on yr foot's painful - but typing a word?



Mainly because I don't like the word and consider it to be highly offensive. Therefore I don't like typing it in the same way I don't like saying it.

G


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)




----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> That's less than half what Pickman's claiming. Do you have a source? Doesn't seem particularly unreasonable, one and a half mill is a mere speck in terms of government funding and it's nice to see money spent on education rather than bombs.




I can give you the phone number of the head teacher, he lives beside my sister in law. My wife will be on Islay week after next, I will get her to confirm the figure.


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

But when asked what do I think about Welsh appearing on UK Passports.....

I could not give a shit   

Could have  French, Chinese or Klingon inside my passport.


----------



## gsv (Jan 27, 2005)

> The Home Office previously agreed to allow the language to be used on the first page of passports issued in Wales.
> 
> But now Welsh will take its place alongside other EU languages on all passports issued in the UK.


Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.


GS(v)


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> Could someone please translate into Welsh:
> 
> « Le vrai problème, c'est que les pauvres Anglophones ont peur q'on discute leurs faiblesses et le fragilité de leurs identités. Et ils ont raison. »



I think that's a pretty fair summary of why English people don't like people speaking in other languages.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> I Personally just think that the language has no real use outside of Wales I can see why it would be easier to learn a third language if you already know two. But would it not be better to teach kids a widespread European language first, and Welsh third? Ability to speak German or Spanish is a damn site more useful imo.


So you see no advantage at all in a child growing up in an environment where they learn the thousand-year old language and culture of their home country as well as English?

Or being able to speak to their grandparents in their native tongue?

Welsh isn't some arcane, minor footnote in British history - it's the language of the original Britons and substantially pre-dates English!

Until the English set about trying to destroy the language in the 1850s, the majority of the country spoke the language and it played a living, breathing part in everyday life and culture. Why shouldn't people try to preserve their culture?


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Thick cunt. I was a fairly fluent speaker of Gaelic in my youth. Can still follow a conversation, can you?
> 
> 1.9% of Scots speak Gaelic.
> 
> The expenditure is a wonderful " Jobs for the boys " environment, a total and absolute waste of money.



Alas for you, Her Majesty's Scottish Executive disagrees.

Long may you swivel on it, Tory boy.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeez...that £1.5 mil could've been spent teaching Essex and Kent people to speak decent English, not that god awful Estuary effort...

Personally I'd like to see Scotland and Wales become competely self governing so they can do what the fuck they want with their languages...


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> I can give you the phone number of the head teacher, he lives beside my sister in law. My wife will be on Islay week after next, I will get her to confirm the figure.



Why don't you raise it with him yourself then rather than whinging at us about it? I've already pointed out that it's an endowment for setting up a college, not the annual budget.


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

gsv said:
			
		

> Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.
> 
> 
> GS(v)



But who gives a shit what language is used, as long as the passport serves its purposes the text means nothing to me. 

WTF Does it say anyway?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So you see no advantage at all in a child growing up in an environment where they learn the thousand-year old language and culture of their home country as well as English?


i thought welsh was somewhat older than a thousand years.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> I Personally just think that the language has no real use outside of Wales I can see why it would be easier to learn a third language if you already know two. But would it not be better to teach kids a widespread European language first, and Welsh third? Ability to speak German or Spanish is a damn site more useful imo.
> 
> I think there's a difference between holding onto your heritage and being ensuring the survival of it,  and using it as a measure of difference. To deliberately alienate the Welsh from the English and vice versa. Both parties are guilty of it.




We don't speak Olde English now, we still fund it at university level, albeit on a smallish scale. All that is required is that a language is kept going, and learning resources are available for those that are interested.

Glasgow has the worst housing stock in Britain, the £8.5m that is spent on gaelic broadcasting would be better spent there.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

You can get a Welsh version of Windows XP, by the way!

'Dying language' my fucking arse.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

gsv said:
			
		

> Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.
> 
> 
> GS(v)



Isn't there Greek, French, German, Irish, Dutch, Danish, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and more on there already? What's the big deal about having another one?


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Jeez...that £1.5 mil could've been spent teaching Essex and Kent people to speak decent English, not that god awful Estuary effort...
> 
> Personally I'd like to see Scotland and Wales become competely self governing so they can do what the fuck they want with their languages...



Hear Hear!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> We don't speak Olde English now


we drink it!


----------



## General Ludd (Jan 27, 2005)

> i thought welsh was somewhat older than a thousand years.


Depends when you want to start counting:

The earliest extant sources of a language identifiable as Welsh go back to about the 6th century, and the language of this period is known as Early Welsh. Very little of this language remains. The next main period, somewhat better attested, is Old Welsh (9th to 11th centuries); this was the language of the laws of Hywel Dda, as well as some poetry from both Wales and Scotland. As Anglo-Saxon colonisation of Great Britain proceeded, the Celtic-speakers in Wales were split off from those in northern England, speaking Cumbrian, and those in the south-west, speaking what would become Cornish, and so the languages diverged.

Middle Welsh (or Cymraeg Canol) is the label attached to the Welsh of the 12th to 14th centuries, of which much more remains than for any earlier period. This is the language of nearly all surviving early manuscripts of the Mabinogion, although the tales themselves are certainly much older. Middle Welsh is reasonably intelligible, albeit with some work, to a modern-day Welsh speaker.

Modern Welsh can be divided into two periods. The first, Early Modern Welsh ran from the 14th century to roughly the end of the 16th century, and was the language used by Dafydd ap Gwilym. Late Modern Welsh began with the publication of William Morgan's translation of the Bible in 1588. Like its English counterpart, the King James Version, this proved to have a strong stabilising effect on the language, and indeed the language today still bears the same Late Modern label as Morgan's language. Of course, many minor changes have occurred since then.


----------



## laptop (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> WTF Does it say anyway?



"Please feel free to laugh at this Sachsen git in your own language"


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> We don't speak Olde English now, we still fund it at university level, albeit on a smallish scale. All that is required is that a language is kept going, and learning resources are available for those that are interested.
> 
> Glasgow has the worst housing stock in Britain, the £8.5m that is spent on gaelic broadcasting would be better spent there.



What, hand over £8.5 million to the private company entursted with 'looking after' what was Glasgow's housing, following the backroom deal between Brown and Glasgow cooncil a couple of years back?

Dream on.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> Why don't you raise it with him yourself then rather than whinging at us about it? I've already pointed out that it's an endowment for setting up a college, not the annual budget.



The annual budget is ( I cannot confirm this, hearsay only ) £11,000.00 per pupil per annum.

I was responding to a halfwit who said that funding for Gaelic is peanuts, it is in excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> We don't speak Olde English now, we still fund it at university level, albeit on a smallish scale. All that is required is that a language is kept going, and learning resources are available for those that are interested.



There's a substantial difference between studying a dead language and providing facilities for study _in_ a living one so that's a rather disengenuous argument. 



> Glasgow has the worst housing stock in Britain, the £8.5m that is spent on gaelic broadcasting would be better spent there.



We could do bothn if we weren't spending billions blowing up Iraq? Why pick on Gaelic broadcasting? Surely all broadcasting is of less vital importance than housing.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> What, hand over £8.5 million to the private company entursted with 'looking after' what was Glasgow's housing, following the backroom deal between Brown and Glasgow cooncil a couple of years back?
> 
> Dream on.



Yes indeed. A disgrace. Still doesn't justify £8.5m per annum on Gaelic broadcasting though, that works out at £914.00 per Gaelic speaker per annum.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> The annual budget is ( I cannot confirm this, hearsay only ) £11,000.00 per pupil per annum.
> 
> I was responding to a halfwit who said that funding for Gaelic is peanuts, it is in excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.



How much is the annual Scottish executive budget, Sasaferrato?

I'd be grateful if you didn't project yr own personal shortcomings (halfwittery) onto me.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> The annual budget is ( I cannot confirm this, hearsay only ) £11,000.00 per pupil per annum.



So about 30% more than average, I don't see aproblem with that in terms of promoting study of a minority subject.



> I was responding to a halfwit who said that funding for Gaelic is peanuts, it is in excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.



The size of the peanut is only considered of any relevance in proportion to the size of the elephant iyswim.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

What's £10m - £2 for everybody in Scotland? Since language is an intrinsic part of culture and national identity, I'm surprised that anybody would begrudge a couple of quid to try and hang onto the remnants of it...


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

i just noticed how vicious the welsh can be, just check the amount of little sly digs in the pro wales posting

maybe we should just put a big wall up....


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> So you see no advantage at all in a child growing up in an environment where they learn the thousand-year old language and culture of their home country as well as English?


Culture and language yes, but making it a second langauge can't have much practical value in the realworld outside of Wales, surely? 



			
				editor said:
			
		

> Welsh isn't some arcane, minor footnote in British history - it's the language of the original Britons and substantially pre-dates English!
> 
> Until the English set about trying to destroy the language in the 1850s, the majority of the country spoke the language and it played a living, breathing part in everyday life and culture. Why shouldn't people try to preserve their culture?



Like I said in my post you're replying to I have no objection to people wishing to preserve and indulge in their own culture and heritage, I just object to it being used as a mark of difference - a device used to segregate each other.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> How much is the annual Scottish executive budget, Sasaferrato?
> 
> I'd be grateful if you didn't project yr own personal shortcomings (halfwittery) onto me.



As you will have observed, you were offensive to me first. I always respond.

Projected for 04-05 about 22Bn.


----------



## General Ludd (Jan 27, 2005)

> Why pick on Gaelic broadcasting?


Because this a thread on minority languages? (The funding doesn't bother me but you're argument here is rubbish and I'm a contrary bastard)


----------



## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

sly digs?!?! wtf   

you're just overtly offensive,  wait til ern finishes his lesson


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Alas for you, Her Majesty's Scottish Executive disagrees.
> 
> Long may you swivel on it, Tory boy.



Fuck off and die Marxist/Leninist/Maoist fuckwit.

Obviously your board name does not reflect you IQ, you should be pimplejack.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> i just noticed how vicious the welsh can be, just check the amount of little sly digs in the pro wales posting
> 
> maybe we should just put a big wall up....



Fucking right with English fuckwits like yourself mouthing off about things you've no understanding of


----------



## Karac (Jan 27, 2005)

Personally im against passports full-stop.
But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff.  
Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh  amongst some English people.
I bet these people imagine themselves as right-on "we are the World" trendies.
But as soon as some uppity Welshman demands his right he gets stamped on.
A lot of English nationalists especially those on the left dont even realise they are nationalists because its subconciously reinforced for them day in day out.
They say things like "i am a free citizen of the World-but fuck me those Welsh bastards are wasting money on lessons for their kids thats going too far!"


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> Because this a thread on minority languages? (The funding doesn't bother me but you're argument here is rubbish and I'm a contrary bastard)



Where is it rubbish? I'm objecting to the constant whine of reactionaries like Sass about how much money is spent on social projects that they consider of no importance when they're really not comparing like with like.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jan 27, 2005)

Firky said:
			
		

> Culture and language yes, but making it a second langauge can't have much practical value in the realworld outside of Wales, surely?



The real world? Fuck me I must be in the Matrix.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> Depends when you want to start counting:
> 
> The earliest extant sources of a language identifiable as Welsh go back to about the 6th century, and the language of this period is known as Early Welsh. Very little of this language remains. The next main period, somewhat better attested, is Old Welsh (9th to 11th centuries); this was the language of the laws of Hywel Dda, as well as some poetry from both Wales and Scotland. As Anglo-Saxon colonisation of Great Britain proceeded, the Celtic-speakers in Wales were split off from those in northern England, speaking Cumbrian, and those in the south-west, speaking what would become Cornish, and so the languages diverged



Good post General Ludd, just finished reading it over on Wikipedia myself


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> Where is it rubbish? I'm objecting to the constant whine of reactionaries like Sass about how much money is spent on social projects that they consider of no importance when they're really not comparing like with like.



Eh? Wasted money is wasted money.

There is no point whatsoever in educating children solely in Gaelic.

I don't expect you to pay for my hobbies, why should we pay for theirs?


----------



## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

> *Karac Personally im against passports full-stop.
> But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff.
> Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the
> 
> ...



applause and thanks


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> As you will have observed, you were offensive to me first. I always respond.
> 
> Projected for 04-05 about 22Bn.



Let's do a sum then....£10 million from £22 billion? As a percentage of govt. spending?

*CHICKENFEED*.

Yet, apparently, all our fiscal problems will be solved if we let Gaelic die by itself.

Honestly! The 'entertainment' budget for the Scottish parliament will dwarf the budget for Gaelic. The executive is already projecting £650 m efficiency savings by 2007-8 (though given labour's fondness for Enron accounting that remains to be seen).

I was offensive to you as the notion that we should just let galeic die is profundly and deeply offensive to me. It's cultural vanadlaism akin to building a Tesco's on the site of a  levelled Arbroath Abbey, or dynamiting Edinburgh Castle and replacing it with a private helicopter pad for Jack McConnell.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh  amongst some English people.



'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 27, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> 'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.



Possibly even more insulting - indifference in the face of Welsh Nationalism

'We want to speak our native language and you can't stop us!!!'

'Yeah, whatever'


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh  amongst some English people.


Yep. I'm picking up that loud and clear.

The level of ignorance displayed by some people in this thread is both astonishing and depressing.


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh  amongst some English people.



It is curious isn't it.

And what makes it so fascinating is that it is all one way traffic. 

You just don't see any obvious deep seated hatred towards the English amongst some Welsh people, do you?

Bizarre!

And I am from Mars.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 27, 2005)

gsv said:
			
		

> Include Welsh for passports issued in Wales, or if requested. Include Scottish, Irish, Cornish, Punjabi and whatever else in this as well. But to include Welsh as the only non-English language for everyone is inconsistent, tokenistic, exclusivist and for most people just plain irrelevant.
> 
> GS(v)



I't's not really a problem though is it. Despite my knuckle-dragging Sarf London roots, I still get a bilingual cheque book as a legacy of living a few years in Wales and having an outwardly Taff-friendly name. 

All it adds up to are a few extra words and the branding legend that is 'Banc Lloyds Bank'  Hardly the end of the world is it...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Personally im against passports full-stop.
> But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff.
> Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh  amongst some English people.
> I bet these people imagine themselves as right-on "we are the World" trendies.
> ...



Education for its own sake is fine, I have no problem with that, however, to educate children in languages that are understood in two minute parts of the country, ( population not geographical size ), is ludicrous.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Fuck off and die Marxist/Leninist/Maoist fuckwit.
> 
> Obviously your board name does not reflect you IQ, you should be pimplejack.



Watch out Sass, you'll get your beef windsor all down the front of your shirt.

Also, I'm a 'none of the above' in your little gallery of political caricatures I'm afraid. There's no need to reinforce your status as a 'halfwit'.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Personally im against passports full-stop.
> But if we need them then they should be in Welsh and issued from Cardiff.
> Whats really interesting in some of the vitriolic responses from some very ill-informed cretins is the obvious deep seated hatred towards the Welsh  amongst some English people.
> I bet these people imagine themselves as right-on "we are the World" trendies.
> ...



Spot on Brawd!  After 20 years in England I'm still astonished by the hysterical reaction of many Saes to any mention Welsh culture or the Welsh nation.  Something to do with 'having lost an Empire and not yet found a role' I think.


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> 'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful.


Take a look through this thread for some examples. 

I'd say dismissing a thousand year old culture as 'irrelevent' is pretty insulting myself.


----------



## General Ludd (Jan 27, 2005)

> Where is it rubbish? I'm objecting to the constant whine of reactionaries like Sass about how much money is spent on social projects that they consider of no importance when they're really not comparing like with like.


Constant whine? As far as I know Sas has only complained about it on this thread which is precisely on minority languages so it seems a bit bizarre to accuse him of 'picking on Gaelic broadcasting' - it'd be stupid and off-topic for him to complain about any other form of funding on this thread. There are lots of arguments for funding of Gaelic broadcasting but 'the amount of money isn't really that big so you shouldn't be bothered one way or the other' isn't one of them.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 27, 2005)

Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about. She can appear in my passport any day of the week.


----------



## Karac (Jan 27, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> 'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.


Yeah thats why i said "some".


----------



## editor (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Education for its own sake is fine, I have no problem with that, however, to educate children in languages that are understood in two minute parts of the country, is ludicrous.


Regardless of the _clear advantages to the child_ (that I've patiently listed previously)?!

So why's that then?


----------



## laptop (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> excess of £10m a year. Somewhat large peanuts.



And it'll buy you about the front two metres of one Eurofighter.


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Eh? Wasted money is wasted money.



That's not true. Money spent doing something that's a bit worthwhile is less wasted than money that's spent doing something not at all worthwhile.



> There is no point whatsoever in educating children solely in Gaelic.



Well, I'm sure they're not being isolated from the English language entuirely and there are huge advantages to bilingual education (see mine and editor's posts above.



> I don't expect you to pay for my hobbies, why should we pay for theirs?



Damn right, let's withdraw all government funding for sport, music and any cultural activities that don't provide immediate economic advantages immediately. And let's spend the moeny on more bombs.


----------



## Hollis (Jan 27, 2005)

Load of Anti-English rascism on these boards.. dates back to.. ho-hum.. 2002.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> 'Deep-seated hatred'? I've heard people take the piss out of the Welsh a bit but I've never heard anything genuinely hateful. I don't think the majority of people in England really give a fuck one way or another.



Would you feel the same way about people taking the piss out of Jews or Asians or the Irish?


----------



## maomao (Jan 27, 2005)

General Ludd said:
			
		

> Constant whine? As far as I know Sas has only complained about it on this thread which is precisely on minority languages so it seems a bit bizarre to accuse him of 'picking on Gaelic broadcasting' - it'd be stupid and off-topic for him to complain about any other form of funding on this thread. There are lots of arguments for funding of Gaelic broadcasting but 'the amount of money isn't really that big so you shouldn't be bothered one way or the other' isn't one of them.



Without derailing the thread this is certainly not the first time Sass has complained about government money being 'wasted'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> Without derailing the thread this is certainly not the first time Sass has complained about government money being 'wasted'.


no indeed.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Education for its own sake is fine, I have no problem with that, however, to educate children in languages that are understood in two minute parts of the country, ( population not geographical size ), is ludicrous.



You;re contradicting yrself now.

In your terms, Gaelic education is education for it's own sake as, according to you, it's useless and a waste of time.

So, either you have a problem with education for its own sake, or a problem with Gaelic.

Which is it?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Let's do a sum then....£10 million from £22 billion? As a percentage of govt. spending?
> 
> *CHICKENFEED*.
> 
> ...



Given the excesses of the Executive, that may well come.  

The pint that I was making is that neither Gaelic nor Welsh ( or Middle English or Olde English ) will never die, there are always enthusiasts to keep it alive. It is a long time since we spoke Latin, yet it is still taught.

My point is that it is not and never will be, the language of Scotland, never mind the wider world. We have gone overboard in terms of expenditure for something thatis, in the modern world, an irrelevance.

Gaelic will outlast both of us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> The pint that I was making is that neither Gaelic nor Welsh ( or Middle English or Olde English ) will never die, there are always enthusiasts to keep it alive.


that doesn't mean what you meant it to mean, does it?


----------



## bluestreak (Jan 27, 2005)

what a depressing fucking thread.

course the welsh should have their language on their passports.  anyone who doesn't understand the postive effects of language and identity must be a bloody fool.

i just wish mine had my language on it, but i guess we'll never be able to translate most of that information in eedjit.


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Would you feel the same way about people taking the piss out of Jews or Asians or the Irish?



Some people can't take a joke. Simple as that. The whole point of most jokes is that they take the piss out of someone.

G


----------



## Funky_monks (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Education for its own sake is fine, I have no problem with that, however, to educate children in languages that are understood in two minute parts of the country, ( population not geographical size ), is ludicrous.



What about if they are living in that 'minute' part of the country? For example in Caernarfon, it has been said that there are 80% Welsh speakers. What is the point in educating them in English?


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Some people can't take a joke. Simple as that. The whole point of most jokes is that they take the piss out of someone.
> 
> G



Do you say that to Black Folk after you've cracked your latest 'Nig-Nog' joke


----------



## Karac (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Education for its own sake is fine, I have no problem with that, however, to educate children in languages that are understood in two minute parts of the country, ( population not geographical size ), is ludicrous.


What are you talking about?
Welsh is spoken all over the country!
More so up North and in Western parts ill grant you-but its even increasing in Cardiff.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Take a look through this thread for some examples.
> 
> I'd say dismissing a thousand year old culture as 'irrelevent' is pretty insulting myself.



Yes it's insulting, but unless I'm a student of Welsh history as an Englishman it is.

Hence let the 3 kingdoms govern themselves. Put a stop to this rubbish full stop.



> Would you feel the same way about people taking the piss out of Jews or Asians or the Irish?



Go to some of the threads dealing with America and put Jew, Asian or Irish in some of the things people say about Americans and you'll get the same result.

And of course, Ernie accusing the English of having a prediliiction for thai children, even tho he withdrew it, isn't a racist comment?


----------



## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Some people can't take a joke. Simple as that. The whole point of most jokes is that they take the piss out of someone.
> 
> G


You haven't answered the question though.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> You;re contradicting yrself now.
> 
> In your terms, Gaelic education is education for it's own sake as, according to you, it's useless and a waste of time.
> 
> ...



Neither. If you want to learn Gaelic then do so as an adult learner. If you want funding for evening classes, fine.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Some people can't take a joke. Simple as that. The whole point of most jokes is that they take the piss out of someone.
> 
> G




show me anything you've posted that can in any way be construed as 'funny'

and not funny peculiar, CUNT


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Load of Anti-English rascism on these boards.. dates back to.. ho-hum.. 2002.



No, don't lie Hollis!

There are no anti-English postings here!

Always remember that!


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Possibly even more insulting - indifference in the face of Welsh Nationalism
> 
> 'We want to speak our native language and you can't stop us!!!'
> 
> 'Yeah, whatever'



thats what i've been trying to tell these people

the welsh were oppresed hundreds of years ago just like everyone else....

MINT! well done


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Given the excesses of the Executive, that may well come.
> 
> 1.The pint that I was making is that neither Gaelic nor Welsh ( or Middle English or Olde English ) will never die, there are always enthusiasts to keep it alive. It is a long time since we spoke Latin, yet it is still taught.
> 
> ...



1. Experience shows you to be wrong. One language per week (I think I;m right in saying) dies out somewhere in the world. If you were write, all these lnaguages would still be kept alive by a small band of enthusiasts. They haven't been.

2. It's _one of_ the languages of Scotland, alongside English, various scots dialects, and the 101 different languages of folk who've moved here from elsewhere in the world to live and work. Nowhere do I claim that Gaelic and Gaelic alone is _the_ language of Scotland. Your (false) claims that it's draining the public purse- when that was shown not to be the case at all on the last page- have already been dealt with.

3. I sincerely hope you're right, but I'm only cautiously optimistic about that.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Would you feel the same way about people taking the piss out of Jews or Asians or the Irish?



Depends on if it was malicious or not. I've certainly never heard anybody go into a rant against the Welsh, if I did I'd think they were fucked in the head. People can be ignorant or insensitive or whatever but I think it's *massively* overstating things to think that there's any kind of deep-seated ancestral hatred of the Welsh.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> that doesn't mean what you meant it to mean, does it?



Nope.


----------



## gerardm (Jan 27, 2005)

ddraig said:
			
		

> show me anything you've posted that can in any way be construed as 'funny'
> 
> and not funny peculiar, CUNT



Nothing I said was a joke. It it what I feel. 

All I was saying is that people who go 'that joke mentions [insert race/religion/country etc here] so it is racist' need to get a life.

G


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

_whatever but I think it's *massively* overstating things to think that there's any kind of deep-seated ancestral hatred of the Welsh._ 

Who's said that then?


----------



## Funky_monks (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> thats what i've been trying to tell these people
> 
> the welsh were oppresed hundreds of years ago just like everyone else....
> 
> MINT! well done



So, lets say, hypothetically speaking that the Germans had won world war two and the official language of the UK was now German. Would you want to carry on speaking Endglish regardless? Lets also say that these German invaders had run campaigns in school, beating anybody who was found to be speaking English. Would it make you more or less likley to want to continue speaking English?

(I know its not the greatest analogy, but bear in mind Wales was majority welsh speaking till the 1850s and there are people still alive who remember the Welsh-not.)


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> I know its not the greatest analogy



You got that right!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2005)

gerardm said:
			
		

> Some people can't take a joke. Simple as that. The whole point of most jokes is that they take the piss out of someone.
> 
> G


[quote='bob' dobbs]fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.[/quote]


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

_Depends on if it was malicious or not._ 

And who decides whether it is malicious?  Im sure your aware that bigots have always hidden behind 'its just a joke', 'you havent got a sense of humour' etc


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> 1. Experience shows you to be wrong. One language per week (I think I;m right in saying) dies out somewhere in the world. If you were write, all these lnaguages would still be kept alive by a small band of enthusiasts. They haven't been.
> 
> 2. It's _one of_ the languages of Scotland, alongside English, various scots dialects, and the 101 different languages of folk who've moved here from elsewhere in the world to live and work. Nowhere do I claim that Gaelic and Gaelic alone is _the_ language of Scotland. Your (false) claims that it's draining the public purse- when that was shown not to be the case at all on the last page- have already been dealt with.
> 
> 3. I sincerely hope you're right, but I'm only cautiously optimistic about that.



Languages that have died out were spoken by a handfull of people, with some they went when the last speaker died. Neither Gaelic nor Welsh fall into that category, apart from anything else, they are both written down, which the disappeared languages were not.

I feel, and am certainly not alone in this, that the amount of money being spent on Gaelic is absurd.


----------



## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Take a look through this thread for some examples.
> 
> I'd say dismissing a thousand year old culture as 'irrelevent' is pretty insulting myself.


People do it to the Cornish all the time. and what's worse is that people who will defend the Welsh right to uphold their cultural identity will treat the Cornish right to do so with disdain


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> People do it to the Cornish al the time.



People do to each other all the time.


----------



## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> People do to each other all the time.


They don't do it to the English


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> 1.Languages that have died out were spoken by a handfull of people, with some they went when the last speaker died. Neither Gaelic nor Welsh fall into that category, apart from anything else, they are both written down, which the disappeared languages were not.
> 
> 2.I feel, and am certainly not alone in this, that the amount of money being spent on Gaelic is absurd.



1. That's just the point- withdraw all funding and broadcasting, it soon will be spoken only by a handful- and die.

2. Again, you*feel* this- it's been shown not to have any basis in objective fact.


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> They don't do it to the English



Yes they do. 

The Irish, Scottish and Welsh all do it to the English.

That is what people are like.


----------



## R.I.C.O. (Jan 27, 2005)

*...*




			
				Firky said:
			
		

> Don't really care what they print inside a passport. One way or another I could not care.
> 
> Can't see what all the fuss is about



Exactly. What the fuck does it matter what you are? You don't need to trump nationalism or a label to prove your cultural identity...


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> People do it to the Cornish all the time. and what's worse is that people who will defend the Welsh right to uphold their cultural identity will treat the Cornish right to do so with disdain



Gordhewer da, madzone- fatla gennough why?


----------



## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Yes they do.
> 
> The Irish, Scottish and Welsh all do it to the English.
> 
> That is what people are like.


I can't see any of the celtic nations compaining about the English having road signs in their own language in their own country.


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

Funky_monks said:
			
		

> So, lets say, hypothetically speaking that the Germans had won world war two and the official language of the UK was now German. Would you want to carry on speaking Endglish regardless? Lets also say that these German invaders had run campaigns in school, beating anybody who was found to be speaking English. Would it make you more or less likley to want to continue speaking English?
> 
> (I know its not the greatest analogy, but bear in mind Wales was majority welsh speaking till the 1850s and there are people still alive who remember the Welsh-not.)



but it was 150 years ago, get over it. and if i nobody outside of england spoke english and that was the case then no i wouldnt be that arsed

i would prefer to learn a european language that would helkp me travel

btw its just like the american spell check, annoying. but yknaaa


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Regardless of the _clear advantages to the child_ (that I've patiently listed previously)?!
> 
> So why's that then?



Time will tell. There has certainly been no evidence that children educated from five upwards solely in Gaelic are performing better in any other subject. Having spoken to children who have been educated in the Gaelic unit in Bowmore, their command of English is just as poor as that of their contemporaries.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Yes they do.
> 
> The Irish, Scottish and Welsh all do it to the English.
> 
> That is what people are like.



Would you like to post some links of Irish, Scottish and Welsh people dismissing English culture as irrelevant?


----------



## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> Gordhewer da, madzone- fatla gennough why?


Ma genam a yehes


----------



## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Would you like to post some links of Irish, Scottish and Welsh people dismissing English culture as irrelevant?


*ahem* And Cornish!
See? You're doing it


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Would you like to post some links of Irish, Scottish and Welsh people dismissing English culture as irrelevant?



I was referring to general anti-English bigotry per se.

Just do a search on anti-english+racism on the BBC site and you'll get plenty of it.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> *ahem* And Cornish!
> See? You're doing it



I was responding directly to Fantas post, he didnt mention the Cornish, but i'm happy to include you


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> I can't see any of the celtic nations compaining about the English having road signs in their own language in their own country.



I should have been clearer - see my post to Belushi above.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> 1. That's just the point- withdraw all funding and broadcasting, it soon will be spoken only by a handful- and die.
> 
> 2. Again, you*feel* this- it's been shown not to have any basis in objective fact.



I have provided facts as you rquested concerning funding, have a look on the Scottish Parliament website if you wish to check the figures.

The likelyhood of Gaelic dieing out is small, indeed, because it is available in both written and spoken form, it cannot die. It may, in time, cease to be spoken, if this becomes the case it will be beacuse people don't wish to speak it, or, are you suggesting that it should be compulsory to speak Gaelic?


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> _Depends on if it was malicious or not._
> 
> And who decides whether it is malicious?  Im sure your aware that bigots have always hidden behind 'its just a joke', 'you havent got a sense of humour' etc



Either they were actually hiding a raging, deep-rooted, pathological hatred of the Welsh that occasionally simmered to the surface in the form of a few piss-taking remarks, or they were taking the piss - and knowing the people in question, I'm inclined to think the latter case was true.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Would you like to post some links of Irish, Scottish and Welsh people dismissing English culture as irrelevant?



The Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English have been taking the piss out of each other since time immemorial. Hardly racist.

For a bunch of baby eating anarchists we seem to have some sensitive souls on the borads today.


----------



## Thumper Browne (Jan 27, 2005)

*rattles a box of England's Glory*


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Either they were actually hiding a raging, deep-rooted, pathological hatred of the Welsh that occasionally simmered to the surface in the form of a few piss-taking remarks, or they were taking the piss - and knowing the people in question, I'm inclined to think the latter case was true.



So its okay to take the piss out of people on the basis of bigoted stereotypes?  

Can't wait to hear your 'Paki' jokes


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> The Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English have been taking the piss out of each other since time immemorial. Hardly racist.



Who mentioned racism?    Didnt have you down as a fan of the 'Tight Jock' or 'Thick Paddy' joke.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 27, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> 1.I have provided facts as you rquested concerning funding, have a look on the Scottish Parliament website if you wish to check the figures.
> 
> 2.The likelyhood of Gaelic dieing out is small, indeed, because it is available in both written and spoken form, it cannot die. It may, in time, cease to be spoken, if this becomes the case it will be beacuse people don't wish to speak it, or, are you suggesting that it should be compulsory to speak Gaelic?



1. I have eyes, Sassaferrato. You appear to be the only one on this thread who thinks that £10 million from £22 billion is scandalously disproportionate. Gaelic speakers, as you pointed out, form 1.9% of the Scots population- that's a good way south of 1.9 % of the Scottish budget.

2. With the number of Gaelic speakers continuing to drop, I think your attitude is at best complacent. It's not as simple as saying 'people don't want to speak it'. That's akin to my saying 'my daughter won't go to school because she doesn't want to', and ignoring the fact that she might be being bullied, or be struggling in some other way.

I'm not, and have never, suggested that Gaelic should be compulsory. I would however like to see greater access to it and exposure to it. has it ever crossed yr mind that it's in decline because the vast majority of Scots kids have no access to it- indeed, don't know it even exists?

I'm not suggesting compulsory classes- it would be nice if children were taught at least a couple of lessons in the course of a 10-13 yr education, however.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> So its okay to take the piss out of people on the basis of bigoted stereotypes?
> 
> Can't wait to hear your 'Paki' jokes



Even the people who've made the occasional remark about the Welsh are very much in the minority. In a lifetime living in England amongst the English I've never seen anything to suggest that there's any real hatred of the Welsh at all. People just aren't that bothered. 

But maybe I've been living in a fool's paradise and if people I know ever find out that my maternal grandmother was a Price from North Wales they'll suddenly turn on me...


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Even the people who've made the occasional remark about the Welsh are very much in the minority. In a lifetime living in England amongst the English I've never seen anything to suggest that there's any real hatred of the Welsh at all. People just aren't that bothered.
> 
> But maybe I've been living in a fool's paradise and if people I know ever find out that my maternal grandmother was a Price from North Wales they'll suddenly turn on me...



Not following your logic mate, its okay to make 'Paki' and 'Coon' jokes if your not racist but its wrong if you are a racist


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 27, 2005)

On building sites I've worked on the English and the Irish and the Welsh and the Scottish and the Brummies and the Kiwis and the Scousers and the Cockneys and anybody else who happened to be passing all took the piss out of each other. If you think that means that the English harbour deep-seated racist feelings against the Welsh, have it your way - you must spend a lot of your life feeling offended.


----------



## kakuma (Jan 27, 2005)

well i learned italian even tho northumbrian is what they spoke where i lived 200 yeasrs ago, i wanna learn french n spanish as well when i got some motivation back

my ancestors where mostly wiped out and scattered around by various people but i dont want a special passport thank you


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 27, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> 1. I have eyes, Sassaferrato. You appear to be the only one on this thread who thinks that £10 million from £22 billion is scandalously disproportionate. Gaelic speakers, as you pointed out, form 1.9% of the Scots population- that's a good way south of 1.9 % of the Scottish budget.
> 
> 2. With the number of Gaelic speakers continuing to drop, I think your attitude is at best complacent. It's not as simple as saying 'people don't want to speak it'. That's akin to my saying 'my daughter won't go to school because she doesn't want to', and ignoring the fact that she might be being bullied, or be struggling in some other way.
> 
> ...




The number of Gaelic speakers is in fact rising, up from 1.2% to 1.9%.

God forbid that we should spend 1.9% of the budget on Gaelic. We spend too much as it is.  

I am quite unconcerned as to the views of others on the boards in this matter, they have their thoughts, I have mine. I can see that their may be merit in both views; however, I don't wish to see spending rising at the current rate, nor do I wish to see it go to zero. I have nothing against Gaelic per se, save that it is an irrelevance in the great scheme of things. 

A goodly percentage of Scots have not mastered the complexities of English usage, never mind adding own a whole new vocabulary.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one, I suspect that neither of our views will change anything in the slightest degree anyway.


----------



## fanta (Jan 27, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> If you think that means that the English harbour deep-seated racist feelings against the Welsh, have it your way - you must spend a lot of your life feeling offended.



Of course the English don't.

This myth is used to justify stupid anti-English prejudice.


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

_On building sites I've worked on the English and the Irish and the Welsh and the Scottish and the Brummies and the Kiwis and the Scousers and the Cockneys and anybody else who happened to be passing all took the piss out of each other. _ 

And thats fair enough mate, but Im sure your aware that that kind of banter can very often be a cover for some very nasty bullying and bigotry,  and there are times when its completely innapropriate.  You wouldnt go up to a group of irish people you didnt know and start cracking the 'Thick Paddy' jokes would you? or tell your local shopkeeper a 'Paki' joke?

_If you think that means that the English harbour deep-seated racist feelings against the Welsh, have it your way - you must spend a lot of your life feeling offended_ 

Where have I said I think that?


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Of course the English don't.
> 
> This myth is used to justify stupid anti-English prejudice.



Would you like to provide links that this 'myth' actually exists outside of your own mind?


----------



## In Bloom (Jan 27, 2005)

What a lot of English people fail to realise, IME, is that when you make the usual jokes about the Welsh, you're insulting people's families, their culture and their heritage.  How would you like it if you went to (for example) America and the whole time people kept making jokes about the stupid, sexually repressed English and their poor hygene?


----------



## Belushi (Jan 27, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> What a lot of English people fail to realise, IME, is that when you make the usual jokes about the Welsh, you're insulting people's families, their culture and their heritage.  How would you like it if you went to (for example) America and the whole time people kept making jokes about the stupid, sexually repressed English and their poor hygene?



But they're only joking


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 27, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> What a lot of English people fail to realise, IME, is that when you make the usual jokes about the Welsh, you're insulting people's families, their culture and their heritage.  How would you like it if you went to (for example) America and the whole time people kept making jokes about the stupid, sexually repressed English and their poor hygene?



Where's the whole 'kept making jokes' about it? come from? Are you saying that as you walk down any given street there is a constant hum of anti-Welsh feeling on the highstreets of England?

And of course, the Scots don't take the piss out of the Sassenachs...

New world types tend to rip the piss out of Europeans for dental hygiene anyway...the French DO have the stereotyped view of the English as sexually repressed...so what's your point?

If a French person calls me 'Eh, Le fuck ewww' (which apparently has replaced les rosbif) or a Scotsman calls me a Sassenach hey - they're insulting my family, my country, my heritage. Do i get upset about it? 

No. I get upset about racism that damages people's lives, that is violent and ugly and about intolerance, not a debate where as an Englishman I'm accused of racism because I really couldn't give a flying fuck about whether the Welsh language is taught or not.

Welsh - leek eating sheep shaggers with appalling taste in interior design
Scotch - tight wad, piss head smack addicts and perennial loosers at football and wars with the English
English - pissed up yobs with an inflated sense of their own country's importance. Think they own the world still and they don't
French - frog eating Nazi collaborators who invaded my country 1000 years ago and systematically wiped out any trace of an actual 'English' culture, replacing it with some Franco-latin bollocks and an oppressive feudal system

Need I go on? Does saying ANY of these things make me a racist? Does it 'oppress' the French? No. Do groups of thugs go around beating Welsh people up for crimes against sheep? No.

If your culture is that fucking dear to you toughen up or don't, for example, take the piss out of Xtians, or get upset and critical when they scream 'blasphemy' at someone insulting their sky pixie...


----------



## In Bloom (Jan 27, 2005)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Where's the whole 'kept making jokes' about it? come from? Are you saying that as you walk down any given street there is a constant hum of anti-Welsh feeling on the highstreets of England?
> 
> And of course, the Scots don't take the piss out of the Sassenachs...
> 
> New world types tend to rip the piss out of Europeans for dental hygiene anyway...the French DO have the stereotyped view of the English as sexually repressed...so what's your point?


My point is that its not very nice to insult people because of their ethnic or national origins, no more, no less.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 27, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> My point is that its not very nice to insult people because of their ethnic or national origins, no more, no less.



Depends on who is doing the insulting and the situation.


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

> The real world? Fuck me I must be in the Matrix.



Neo is Welsh


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 27, 2005)

Some right bollocks been posted on this thread


----------



## 1927 (Jan 27, 2005)

The Uk as a whole is becoming more multi-racial,and peeps from other races,religions etc are receiving money from central and lottery funds to maintain their religion,traditions etc.Anyone who objects is denounced as racist,but its ok to deny the Welsh teh same opportunity???

And for those of you who want to build a wall between our two countries and give us total independence,fair enough I say! But and its a big but,if you are happy for that to happen,then please be prepared for a claim for compensation,in the same way as African states are demanding compensation for the slave trade,for all the coal and gold robbed from us over the centuries.Oh yeh,and the peopel of Birmingham had better start drinking their own piss because you wont be able to afford the water you are still robbing from us.

The reason it cost £5 to enter Wales is that if they chrged both ways £2.50 with be too little to charge for entering the beauty that is Wales and £2.50 way too much to enter Ehgland.


----------



## madzone (Jan 27, 2005)

beesonthewhatnow said:
			
		

> Some right bollocks been posted on this thread


No left ones?
BOLLOCKIST!!


----------



## Rocket Romano (Jan 27, 2005)

They pay you to go to Wales?!


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

*Adds to list*

What is it about Geordies and their obsessive hatred of Welsh? Is it because English people keep thinking Newcastle is in Scotland?


----------



## bluestreak (Jan 27, 2005)

its funny, i've spent a lot of time in wales over the years and have never found the welsh to be aything other than perfectly friendly, even in places where there is supposed to be loads of anti-english feeling.

the worst welsh anti-english prejudice i've come across is from old joe stalin up there, and thats so overblown as to be funny rather than especially offensive.


----------



## Rocket Romano (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> *Adds to list*
> 
> What is it about Geordies and their obsessive hatred of Welsh? Is it because English people keep thinking Newcastle is in Scotland?



It might as well be, rather there than stuck in bloody England.

Anyways, what is it with the Welsh and the sheeperiority complex, sorry, superiority complex?


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> *Adds to list*
> 
> What is it about Geordies and their obsessive hatred of Welsh? Is it because English people keep thinking Newcastle is in Scotland?




It is funny cos it is true.


----------



## 1927 (Jan 27, 2005)

Rocket Romano said:
			
		

> It might as well be, rather there than stuck in bloody England.
> 
> Anyways, what is it with the Welsh and the sheeperiority complex, sorry, superiority complex?



See this makes my point about racism not being considered when the Welsh are the subject!
Call a weslhman a sheepshagger and he is expected to laugh it off,but call an African or west indian a monkey shagger and you would be dragged into court quicker than it takes to knit a wooly hat out of my girlfriends fleece!


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

i always thought that anyone from the hills got called a sheepshagger   

I used to get it right the way up until I left college cos I lived in the country - and I'd get called Scottish these days for reasons Ern' said.


----------



## George & Bill (Jan 27, 2005)

I think the welsh should give back to us native british the land they stole from us, and get their filthy language off our passports.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 27, 2005)

You're either

a) confused
b) fuckwit
c) both


----------



## Flavour (Jan 27, 2005)

Did you know there are over 20 languages in the rural north and east of Finland?

anyway -

i'm happy to see welsh on the passports, because i want the language to survive and grow - remember that there are always some words that only exist in a particular language, and are untranslatable. we can only think what we can say, so we lose words and language at our peril. i would like to see scottish on passports as well, but not irish cos it aint part of britain. not that wales and scotland are either really, cos its an artificial english construct, but to all intents and purposes... you know what i mean.

Sasana tá bruscar


----------



## Owain (Jan 27, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> why is it always the welsh and not the scottish who demand all these 'rights'? could it be that the welsh are more worried about their national identity cos they never got one when it mattered hundreds of years ago?
> 
> or am i missing something?...








			
				gerardm said:
			
		

> No, I'd say you've hit the mark fairly well.
> 
> Imagine if instead of spending money on putting the road signs in Welsh and English, they were just in England and the money saved went into the NHS.
> 
> ...



Sure the Welsh feel very protective about their identity and nationality. It's been under attack since the 13th century for God's sake and it's still under attack today. We are the only race on these islands that have it written into the Act of Union that we will be "expurgated" ie. deleted. For centuries the English have used the Welsh as serfs and maintained a tight grip on the Welsh economy, going as far as exploiting the mineral riches of Wales without re-investing ANY of it back in the country. Also they have attempted to grind down and stamp out all traces of Welsh national identity, both by inherent racism and by English law implemented against the Welsh (this is recorded unarguable fact). 

So nowadays, in these supposedly more enlightened times, we find that the English haven't changed their game one bit. It would be fucking refreshing if the English, en mass, recognised the mistakes of previous centuries and recognised that the celtic cultures of these islands have every right to exist and thrive. It would be fantastic if the English delighted in cultural differences but sadly that is unlikely. The inter-national squabbling would cease immediately. Instead the same old ingrained racism still dominates all contact and dealing with English people; it really does wear you down and is the reason the English feel some resentment from the rest of the UK now. Try to imagine how you yourselves would respond and feel if an adjacent culture was trying to delete and drown out your own? You'd bloody well respond wouldn't you, so why do you blame our cultures for responding to English' ethnic racism?

This could be what your missing Ninjaboy.


----------



## Funky_monks (Jan 27, 2005)

Owain said:
			
		

> This could be what your missing Ninjaboy.



If my primary school "my-first-analogy" didnt work on him, what makes you think that piece of quite complex prose will?


----------



## Firky (Jan 27, 2005)

slowjoe said:
			
		

> I think the welsh should give back to us native british the land they stole from us, and get their filthy language off our passports.


huh?


----------



## George & Bill (Jan 27, 2005)

sorry to anyone who took me seriously  

as you were  

(of course it's quite right for welsh, or any other language that's widely spoken in the uk, to go on our passports)


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2005)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Even the people who've made the occasional remark about the Welsh are very much in the minority. In a lifetime living in England amongst the English I've never seen anything to suggest that there's any real hatred of the Welsh at all. People just aren't that bothered.



Have to disagree with you there.  I reckon Kinnock would have won the '92 election if he hadn't been Welsh.


----------



## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Have to disagree with you there.  I reckon Kinnock would have won the '92 election if he hadn't been Welsh.



I reckon it was the ginger hair that done for him.


----------



## kakuma (Jan 28, 2005)

Owain said:
			
		

> Sure the Welsh feel very protective about their identity and nationality. It's been under attack since the 13th century for God's sake and it's still under attack today. We are the only race on these islands that have it written into the Act of Union that we will be "expurgated" ie. deleted. For centuries the English have used the Welsh as serfs and maintained a tight grip on the Welsh economy, going as far as exploiting the mineral riches of Wales without re-investing ANY of it back in the country. Also they have attempted to grind down and stamp out all traces of Welsh national identity, both by inherent racism and by English law implemented against the Welsh (this is recorded unarguable fact).
> 
> So nowadays, in these supposedly more enlightened times, we find that the English haven't changed their game one bit. It would be fucking refreshing if the English, en mass, recognised the mistakes of previous centuries and recognised that the celtic cultures of these islands have every right to exist and thrive. It would be fantastic if the English delighted in cultural differences but sadly that is unlikely. The inter-national squabbling would cease immediately. Instead the same old ingrained racism still dominates all contact and dealing with English people; it really does wear you down and is the reason the English feel some resentment from the rest of the UK now. Try to imagine how you yourselves would respond and feel if an adjacent culture was trying to delete and drown out your own? You'd bloody well respond wouldn't you, so why do you blame our cultures for responding to English' ethnic racism?
> 
> This could be what your missing Ninjaboy.



dunno, i understand that you feel threatened and scared about whats been happening in the 13th century lately, 

i dont understand wether it was the putting giving welsh people their own passports or building a huge fuckoff big parliment that gave the impression of trying to drown you out i must remember not to do that next time

i dont deny that the welsh have been oppressed, as just about everywhere in the world has been, its just i wish some people would get over themselves.....

and by the by, i'd say kinnock didnt lose the election cos he was left wing but c'est la vie


----------



## diond (Jan 28, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Have to disagree with you there.  I reckon Kinnock would have won the '92 election if he hadn't been Welsh.


"Ifs" and "ands" are so easy to band about though, aren't they?

Rather than a comb over, I would have to say that being 'almost bald' would have been the nail in the coffin for Kinnock really. (That, and falling over a very small wave on the beach). The last decent slaphead would have to be Churchill, and he was kicked out of government soon after the war effort.
Being Welsh and losing the election is totally irrelevant as regards the English electorate are concerned. We vote for who we believe is the most capable, regardless of where they were born. I mean, Tony *Blair* is Scottish, *Brown* is Scottish too, and "two Jags" is *Welsh.*


----------



## TeeJay (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> We don't, or at least I don't. The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of Welsh and Gaelic is a disgrace. Let's try and get our young people to learn to speak English properly, never mind redundant curiousities like Welsh and Gaelic.
> 
> Either Welsh and Gaelic are live languages in which case they don't need stste funding, or, they are dead and let's bury the fucking things.


The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of British English is a disgrace... Either (British) English is a "live language" in which case it doesn't need anyone to "try and get our young people to learn to speak [it] properly" or it is dead and let's bury the fucking thing. 

Does this make sense Sas?


----------



## Owain (Jan 28, 2005)

Look people. Without prejudice towards anyone I would just like to give some examples of the stuff I have had to listen to again and again and again through my years living in England and during my travels around the globe. It's stange that this stuff has ONLY come from the English and from NO OTHER nationality at all. All other nationalities have been friendly and welcoming. This may help explain why I'm fucking sick of English anti Welsh racism.

For all English people reading this thread, put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and think about how you would feel. I'm sick of the anti Welsh shite from the English and I just wish it would stop, that's all. I have nothing against English people apart from that. Many of my friends are English but they tend to be more enlightened types. Here's a small snippet of stuff that I used to get regularly. I really don't mind the odd Welsh joke here and there, but it depends on the intent, as someone else mentioned previously on this thread. Here is a sample, follwed by the experiences of two people visiting Wales from overseas recently. 

*Over the years I've had to put up with so much of this shit:*

Your father must have f***ed a sheep to get you. (heard sooooo many  times).

You bastard Welsh live in caves (from my English manager at work on my first day, but often heard elsewhere).

The Welsh are just the Irish who couldn't swim. 

Baaaa baaaaaa (bleating noises from an Englishman at table at the company restaurant directed at me and meant to be intimidatory)

Taffy was a Welshman Taffy was a thief etc.etc  (the first line from a poem that used to be recited to me regularly by a work colleague).

(on being introduced to an Englishman in Thailand) 
A friend: "Owain, meet Ian, Ian meet Owain." 
Me: "Hello Ian, nice to meet you." 
Ian: "Oh yeah, another f***ing Welsh c**t".

"you Welsh are all thick c***s" (heard on many occasions)

*Experiences of people from overseas visiting Wales:*

I stayed in Wales for three weeks this past September. I found it interesting that my hostess, an Englishwoman who retired in Wales, was cordial to me until I made it plain that my political affinity was with the Welsh. It was interesting to note her chilly treatment of me after that. In addition, when I conversed with a variety of English people (who very kindly escorted me around to places of interest in Wales), it was made plain that the Welsh were to be barely tolerated. I mean "tolerated" in the way of merely "putting up with" rather than inherently respected for the beauty of Welsh people, land, language, and customs. I was repeatedly admonished not to attempt to learn any Welsh, and not to get too close in my relationships with Welsh people. The attitude was clearly one of the English "colonizer" lording it over the "colonized", and I think these incidents portray the continuing attitudes of disrespect that engender anger and violence. Why wouldn't they? As for any claim that today's English people haven't reaped what they've sown, let me say this. It isn't a matter of ALWAYS being personally guilty of hateful remarks and discriminatory actions. It's a matter of an inherited attitude that will take a lot of work to purge out of the culture. The hurts go so deep that they are embedded in both cultures, and the length of the injuries don't go away with just "Forgive and forget." The injustice towards Wales continues in full force. As someone else in the thread pointed out, we have "reaped what we've sown" here in America, and it will take hundreds of years to repair the actual damage, as well as the sense of it. 

Theresa Clark, student, USA

*And another:*

Coming to Wales as a tourist from abroad is a little odd because you can spend your whole holiday meeting no one but English. They really do seem to be everywhere! Owning and running the shops, restaurants, car hires etc. I've been trying with limited success to identify hotels, farms, and other locations where it is clear that where they are owned/operated by Welsh. Maybe this should be promoted more often. Maybe it’s a way to reinforce the culture, at the same time increasing local incomes. There's a lot more to be done to promote Wales abroad, and your culture is your strongest asset.

*Ends/*


Yours, from a Welshman who just wants to live out his life with dignity. I used to be open and friendly and welcoming towards the English and anyone else I met. Now whenever I meet an English person I just wonder what's coming.

Owain


----------



## layabout (Jan 28, 2005)

Owain,

Sorry if I'm being a bit kurt, but

What the fuck do you expect me to do as an English person?

Sorry, but I won't get anywhere if I was to logon to a forum full of French people and say

"Look, I've been around on the continent and in my experience, the most pig ignorant and rude people I ever met happened to be French!!!!!!! You lot have got a big problem you know! It's your culture!" 

What kind of reaction would I get?


----------



## Owain (Jan 28, 2005)

Maybe you didn't understand the point Layabout. Not much that can be done about that.


----------



## layabout (Jan 28, 2005)

Owain said:
			
		

> Maybe you didn't understand the point Layabout. Not much that can be done about that.



I do get the point. It's just that as bad as your experiences are, I don't think it's English culture as a whole thats to blame for the problems you face. 

I can't remember the last time someone told me a joke about the Welsh. 

I've only been to Wales once and that was in the South. If you swapped England with France and you had France as your bigger next door neighbour, you would have similar problems, not that I'm defending the injustice you speak of. 

If you lived in my town on the South coast with a heavy Welsh accent, no one would bat an eyelid. 

As one person posted earlier, English people aren't bothered about Welsh people. Shame it appears that there are many English in Wales who are a bit lacking on the personal skills front....


----------



## Owain (Jan 28, 2005)

OK Layabout, no quarrel with you. As it happens all the stuff I've recounted in the posting happened to me while I was in England not in Wales. The stuff from a manager about living in caves was the first day at Motorola in Swindon, the sheep noises in the works restaurant at Nortel in Maidenhead. Not all English are like this, but it is a sizeable number and I come across it several times during any one year. Why the hell should I put up with it?

If this was isolated stuff it wouldn't bother me in the least and I'd just put it down to a few assholes being around, as there are in any nationality. Trouble is that this stuff happens all the time, in fact I no longer smile politely when I get it but I return in full with interest. Which is a pity as I am generally quite a convivial person. I have travelled and lived in many countries and speak Welsh, English, French and a smattering of Thai, and lived in Wales, England, France, Thailand and Australia, the only nationality I get this stuff from is the English. I find it sad that many of them don't have a better way to conduct their daily lives with other nationalities. 

Take a look at this: http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...ing-down-their-noses--at-welsh-name_page.html


----------



## TeeJay (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Eh? Wasted money is wasted money.
> 
> There is no point whatsoever in educating children solely in Gaelic.
> 
> I don't expect you to pay for my hobbies, why should we pay for theirs?


Don't you think it should be up to parents to have some choice where they want to send their chuildren and what type of education they should have? As long as the school meets the required standards and national curriculum etc, what is wrong with choice? You are saying that a specialist centre shouldn't get extra funding, but a centre like this will provide a resource for all subsequent teaching in other places, and therefore it is likely it will initially be more expensive, as it serves as a centre of excellence. However, like many things, it will have indirect benefits including financial ones (for example rich north americans paying loads of money to 'rediscover their roots'). Are you against parents having choice about their childrens education? Or do you think the state should dictate everything and give noone a choice?


----------



## TeeJay (Jan 28, 2005)

Owain said:
			
		

> ...Try to imagine how you yourselves would respond and feel if an adjacent culture was trying to delete and drown out your own?...


Look how angry many English people get about American spelling and "Americanisms". In fact Ernesto gets angry about them as well, so it isn't just "English" people - "British" people maybe.

I think there is a lot of ingrained xenophobia around. Maybe it doesn't come out all the time and is more an unthinking reaction to things that unsettle someone. You only have to look at people abroad and the way they often huddle together as ex-pats and slag off the local population. A lot of it is fear and an inability or unwillingness to learn a new language. The attitudes often change as people widen their social circles, learn more about the local culture and learn at least some language.

If all UK students were taught at least some basic Welsh language and history    they might not be so ignorant and might have more respect. Very often disrespect and prejudice comes from seeing something as alien, frightening and wierd/unusual. I don't remember anything during my education that addressed Welsh (or Scottish) history or language. (I vaguely remember a tiny bit of Irish history being taught as part of my GCSE). Everything I learnt was from a couple of fellow students who were from Wales and a teacher, and half of that was about rugby.   

It wouldn't have to be in depth - just a module or two in history, geography, languages etc, and maybe the chance to do more if you wanted - this for all students across the entire UK. It does seem wierd that there are French/Spanish/German etc courses in almost every college and evening class, but you hardly ever see any Welsh/Gallic/Gaelic (in England). Maybe people wouldn't want to spend ages learning them, but I bet a lot of people would do a short 'introduction' type course (eg 10 weeks) if it were available, and especially if you combined it with a bit of history & culture and maybe even dovetailed it with tourist trips etc.

I think that if this was to happen then there would be more respect and less ignorance flying around, and it could only be a good thing.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 28, 2005)

Ai fforgot abawt ddus ffŵl....tîjê


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 28, 2005)

Owain - dos i'r fforym Cymru a rhoi eich barn ar fy pol OGYDd.


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 28, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Have to disagree with you there.  I reckon Kinnock would have won the '92 election if he hadn't been Welsh.


you do know that Geoffrey Howe and Michael Heseltine (and Michael Howard) are welsh, don't you?


----------



## Hollis (Jan 28, 2005)

Can't agree with you there phil.  The reason Labour lost the 92 election in the end.. was largely because alot of the electorate got cold feet about Labours supposed 'tax & spend' policy.  The Tories ran a very effective advertising campaign.


----------



## Hollis (Jan 28, 2005)

Owain said:
			
		

> For all English people reading this thread, put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and think about how you would feel. I'm sick of the anti Welsh shite from the English and I just wish it would stop, that's all. I have nothing against English people apart from that. Many of my friends are English but they tend to be more enlightened types. Here's a small snippet of stuff that I used to get regularly. I really don't mind the odd Welsh joke here and there, but it depends on the intent, as someone else mentioned previously on this thread. Here is a sample, follwed by the experiences of two people visiting Wales from overseas recently.
> 
> *Over the years I've had to put up with so much of this shit:*
> 
> ...



Owain - I suggest you move to the West Country for an easy ride.


----------



## fanta (Jan 28, 2005)

Owain said:
			
		

> Look people. Without prejudice towards anyone I would just like to give some examples of the stuff I have had to listen to again and again and again through my years living in England and during my travels around the globe. It's stange that this stuff has ONLY come from the English and from NO OTHER nationality at all. All other nationalities have been friendly and welcoming. This may help explain why I'm fucking sick of English anti Welsh racism.
> 
> For all English people reading this thread, put yourselves in our shoes for a minute and think about how you would feel. I'm sick of the anti Welsh shite from the English and I just wish it would stop, that's all. I have nothing against English people apart from that. Many of my friends are English but they tend to be more enlightened types. Here's a small snippet of stuff that I used to get regularly. I really don't mind the odd Welsh joke here and there, but it depends on the intent, as someone else mentioned previously on this thread. Here is a sample, follwed by the experiences of two people visiting Wales from overseas recently.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you'me some right idiots. The world is full of them. I'm glad you realise that not all English people are the same. I concede that the same is true for all Welsh people. All peoples in fact.


----------



## madzone (Jan 28, 2005)

This thread reminds me of a John Cooper Clarke poem from way back.  I can't rememebr what it was called but the last line was '....but most of all I hate the fucking Dutch' Can anyone remember the rest of it?


----------



## Thumper Browne (Jan 28, 2005)

slowjoe said:
			
		

> I think the welsh should give back to us native british the land they stole from us, and get their filthy language off our passports.



*sets fire to thread*


----------



## Thumper Browne (Jan 28, 2005)

slowjoe said:
			
		

> sorry to anyone who took me seriously
> 
> as you were
> 
> (of course it's quite right for welsh, or any other language that's widely spoken in the uk, to go on our passports)



*tries to blow it out again*


*scarpers*


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Can't agree with you there phil.  The reason Labour lost the 92 election in the end.. was largely because alot of the electorate got cold feet about Labours supposed 'tax & spend' policy.  The Tories ran a very effective advertising campaign.


There was a mix of factors that led to Kinnock's election defeat, but I can definitely recall some anti-Welsh sentiment being thrown about at the time too.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> The amount of money spent promoting the linguistic irrelevancies of British English is a disgrace... Either (British) English is a "live language" in which case it doesn't need anyone to "try and get our young people to learn to speak [it] properly" or it is dead and let's bury the fucking thing.
> 
> Does this make sense Sas?



No.

Language needs to be taught, whether that be a " live " language like English, or  a " dead " language like Latin.

English is English, the other countries which speak English and adulterate it, are, in effect, dialects.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> It's historically the nearest language to English but it missed out on all the Norman input into the vocabulary so it's still quite different.


Really? There are words that are the same...eglws, eglise (church)...they don't look the same but they sound the same...Bretons are Celts too. So maybe there are French words that have come from the Celt...


----------



## Hollis (Jan 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> There was a mix of factors that led to Kinnock's election defeat, but I can definitely recall some anti-Welsh sentiment being thrown about at the time too.



The main problem Kinnock had was credibility - which the press played upon.  Generally though in elections the 'leadership' factor isn't as great as people think..


----------



## fanta (Jan 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> There was a mix of factors that led to Kinnock's election defeat, but I can definitely recall some anti-Welsh sentiment being thrown about at the time too.



I think there were some people that just couldn't stomach the thought of a Welsh man in number 10. Weird. Ok for a (hateful and wicked) posh English woman to be prime minister but not a Welsh man.


----------



## madzone (Jan 28, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Really? There are words that are the same...eglws, eglise (church)...they don't look the same but they sound the same...Bretons are Celts too. So maybe there are French words that have come from the Celt...


Cornish for church is eglos.


----------



## fanta (Jan 28, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> Cornish for church is eglos.



Is that what Eskimos live in?


----------



## madzone (Jan 28, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Is that what Eskimos live in?


Only cornish ones.
These are local eglos for local people


----------



## kakuma (Jan 28, 2005)

i was just thinking about this on the bog, and i realised that the reason im prejudiced against you nationalists is cos it reminds me of the UKIP people dressed as beefeaters etc whinging about losing their culture etc etc


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> i was just thinking about this on the bog, and i realised that the reason im prejudiced against you nationalists is cos it reminds me of the UKIP people dressed as beefeaters etc whinging about losing their culture etc etc


You really are an obnoxious, ignorant bigot.


----------



## ernestolynch (Jan 28, 2005)

Are you prejudiced against Palestinians, Native Americans (eg Sioux) and Kurds as well?


----------



## editor (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Language needs to be taught, whether that be a " live " language like English


Or Welsh...

If I had kids growing up in Wales, I'd definitely try and put them into Welsh speaking schools. The educational advantages and cultural benefits are compelling.

How about you?


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## Hollis (Jan 28, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Are you prejudiced against Palestinians, Native Americans (eg Sioux) and Kurds as well?



But they're all pretty ludicrous comparions.  How much oppression d'you really feel in your middle-managment teaching job, and Edwardian terraced house..in England.


<...zzzz..  >


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## fanta (Jan 28, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> But they're all pretty ludicrous comparions.  How much oppression d'you really feel in your middle-managment teaching job, and Edwardian terraced house..
> 
> <...zzzz..  >



Yeah, true.

We all know that the suffering of the people that Ernie represents has been *much* worse than the slight inconveniences that Palestinians, Native Americans (eg Sioux) and Kurds have had to put up with!


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## ernestolynch (Jan 28, 2005)

Less of the management please, and it's not Angle-land, it's Sachson-Occupied Prydain. Boudicca would have kicked your Germanic arse matey.


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## goldenecitrone (Jan 28, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Are you prejudiced against Palestinians, Native Americans (eg Sioux) and Kurds as well?



Not had many Welsh folk turning up at our college lately. But I'm quite willing to teach them all the Queen's English. I'd even throw in a few citizenship classes as well. We only consider sheep fit for eating, that kind of thing.


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## ernestolynch (Jan 28, 2005)

goldenecitrone said:
			
		

> Not had many Welsh folk turning up at our college lately. But I'm quite willing to teach them all the Queen's English. I'd even throw in a few citizenship classes as well. We only consider sheep fit for eating, that kind of thing.



Well we fuck em and you eat em. You don't wanna know what we do to your water, pal....


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Language needs to be taught, whether that be a " live " language like English, or  a " dead " language like Latin.



Not true. Not even a little bit true. There is no evidence that children respond to deliberate corrections or instruction from parents or teachers during the period when they are 'learning' the grammar of a language (ie. up to the age of 12) but rather they create their own 'theories' of how a language works based on what they hear. The fact that their 'theories' are never quite the same as their parents' is why languages develop and change. Effective written communication can be taught as can specific oral skills such as public speaking but normal spoken language cannot be said in any way to be 'taught'.



> English is English, the other countries which speak English and adulterate it, are, in effect, dialects.



A language is a dialect with an army.


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## goldenecitrone (Jan 28, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Well we fuck em and you eat em. You don't wanna know what we do to your water, pal....



Is that why you only drink wine? Very sensible.


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## layabout (Jan 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> There was a mix of factors that led to Kinnock's election defeat, but I can definitely recall some anti-Welsh sentiment being thrown about at the time too.



"Welsh Windbag" if I remember correctly. The Sun was the biggest culprit.

I felt sorry for Kinnock in a way, but in other ways I wanted to punch his lights out! 

The sad fact of the matter is a lot of people care about image etc. Comedians saying "Who wants a prime minister with ginger pubs?" done the man more damage than anything else.


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## Firky (Jan 28, 2005)

Ginger pubs?


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## Firky (Jan 28, 2005)

Is that a chain of pubs ran by Charles Kennedy?


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## kakuma (Jan 28, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> You really are an obnoxious, ignorant bigot.



a good point well made

(drum roll) OH NO IM NOT!!!!


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## kakuma (Jan 28, 2005)

PS If i really was a bigot i'd ask you why your bulletin board isnt in welsh.

but im not

so i wont


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## editor (Jan 28, 2005)

Ninjaboy said:
			
		

> PS If i really was a bigot i'd ask you why your bulletin board isnt in welsh.


That 'point' doesn't even make any sense.

But there's a simple reason why I can't speak Welsh and that's because when I grew up in Wales, we were barely taught any Welsh. You see, if you knew your history, you'd know that the English have done their damndest to finish off the Welsh language, and it is only in recent times that things have changed.


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## al-balad (Jan 28, 2005)

Justin said:
			
		

> I think we should all speak Latin.



I thought English, Urdu & Punjabi were our official languages now.


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## tobyjug (Jan 28, 2005)

al-balad said:
			
		

> I thought English, Urdu & Punjabi were our official languages now.



There used to be a joke many moons ago that the OHMS on official letters   stood for Only Hindus Muslims and Sikhs.


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## phildwyer (Jan 28, 2005)

Red Jezza said:
			
		

> you do know that Geoffrey Howe and Michael Heseltine (and Michael Howard) are welsh, don't you?



But they don't look, sound or act Welsh, because they were packed off to public school in England.  There have hardly been any successful politicians with Welsh accents since Bevan.  And I don't think there's *ever* been a prominent Tory with a Welsh accent.


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## TeeJay (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> English is English, the other countries which speak English and adulterate it, are, in effect, dialects.


*Everyone* speaks some kind of dialect or version of English - there is no objectively "correct" version. Typically the one group will insist that *their* dialect is the correct one, and enforce this by making it the "standard". While having standard useage is useful, what this standard actually is in the first place doesn't come down to "purity", and language has always evolved otherwise we would still be talking like characters from chaucer and shakespeare. Whe you say "English is English", it makes me wonder if you actually know where the language came from in the first place. Do you think that English is a very old language for example, compared to most of the languages in the world? When did it become English as opposed to anything else? If you step back a bit you will see that tryiong to pretend that there is some correct, static and pure version is laughable. It is a mongrel and varied construct in the first place that has grown out of many peoples and cultures, and it will continue to grow and change. What you refer to as adulterated dialects are in effect the future of the language and therefore a full and real part of the language itself. People who insist that there version is the 'genuine' or 'right' one rarely have  all speakers interests at heart and are far more likely to be trying to maintain their dialect's own special status and monopoly on correctness, by trying to force everyone to conform to their version.


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## academia (Jan 28, 2005)

All I know is that it fucks me off having to build bilingual websites in English and Welsh, because of some government standard.

No-one ever reads the Welsh versions.
I've even made up some of the translations myself just to check, filling them with Welsh looking gibberish. No-one's ever complained. 

Trdyh lleam lawhdirrhgh fe tnimmh gwo twunt. Cln fep telpaffin whcw tal miffn.


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## laptop (Jan 28, 2005)

academia said:
			
		

> All I know is that it fucks me off having to build bilingual websites in English and Welsh, because of some government standard.



The extra income fucks you off?

Bara 'n whych cidde buttered, boyo.


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## TeeJay (Jan 28, 2005)

academia said:
			
		

> All I know is that it fucks me off having to build bilingual websites in English and Welsh, because of some government standard.


What websites are these then? I can't remember seeing any. Are they aimed at people in Wales?


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## laptop (Jan 28, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> What websites are these then? I can't remember seeing any. Are they aimed at people in Wales?



Croeso i adran Gymraeg gwefan y Swyddfa Gartref

Pretty half-arsed effort, though - insulting, but honest, to put the navigation bars leading to the useful content in English.

(Now if they'd put y Swyddfa Opresion Sachsen  )


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## Owain (Jan 28, 2005)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Owain - I suggest you move to the West Country for an easy ride.



Hollis, I have to agree, I spent a few years working at Nortel in Paignton and really had a great time there, the people are fantastic and I had none of the stuff that I wrote about in my piece above while I was there; the same can be said for Bristol too, which is kind of West country even today I suppose. I still go back to Paignton regularly to see the old friends there and get greeted warmly every time. If I were to live in England it would difinitlely be down there. Great pubs too! And the beer fest at Newton Abbot every year!

It's the South East that I get the shit from, and some of them are very persistent. If you cut off the South East corner of England the rest of it could be quite a nice place actually.


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## academia (Jan 28, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> The extra income fucks you off?



Ah no, it's just a job, no extra income for chasing up reluctant Welsh translators.

Actually I think the people I was working for were confused, as they don't even cover Wales. Only government sites that could apply to Welsh people require a Welsh version.

It's mainly a pain in the arse cos non-techy types think it's pretty easy to get an existing site to run in two different languages.

It. is. not.


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## Karac (Jan 28, 2005)

academia said:
			
		

> All I know is that it fucks me off having to build bilingual websites in English and Welsh, because of some government standard.
> 
> No-one ever reads the Welsh versions.
> I've even made up some of the translations myself just to check, filling them with Welsh looking gibberish. No-one's ever complained.
> ...


Is this in Wales or England?


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## academia (Jan 28, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Is this in Wales or England?



This was in England.


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## Karac (Jan 28, 2005)

Well that explains it.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> *Everyone* speaks some kind of dialect or version of English - there is no objectively "correct" version. Typically the one group will insist that *their* dialect is the correct one, and enforce this by making it the "standard". While having standard useage is useful, what this standard actually is in the first place doesn't come down to "purity", and language has always evolved otherwise we would still be talking like characters from chaucer and shakespeare. Whe you say "English is English", it makes me wonder if you actually know where the language came from in the first place. Do you think that English is a very old language for example, compared to most of the languages in the world? When did it become English as opposed to anything else? If you step back a bit you will see that tryiong to pretend that there is some correct, static and pure version is laughable. It is a mongrel and varied construct in the first place that has grown out of many peoples and cultures, and it will continue to grow and change. What you refer to as adulterated dialects are in effect the future of the language and therefore a full and real part of the language itself. People who insist that there version is the 'genuine' or 'right' one rarely have  all speakers interests at heart and are far more likely to be trying to maintain their dialect's own special status and monopoly on correctness, by trying to force everyone to conform to their version.



I do know where English comes from you patronising twat.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> Not true. Not even a little bit true. There is no evidence that children respond to deliberate corrections or instruction from parents or teachers during the period when they are 'learning' the grammar of a language (ie. up to the age of 12) but rather they create their own 'theories' of how a language works based on what they hear. The fact that their 'theories' are never quite the same as their parents' is why languages develop and change. Effective written communication can be taught as can specific oral skills such as public speaking but normal spoken language cannot be said in any way to be 'taught'.
> 
> 
> 
> A language is a dialect with an army.



My daughter speaks grammatically correct English, this was taught to her by her mother and me whilst she was in her pre-school years.

Anything else you care do be disproved on?


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## madzone (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> My daughter speaks grammatically correct English, this was taught to her by her mother and me whilst she was in her pre-school years.
> 
> Anything else you care do be disproved on?



The sassaferrato theory of language acquisition - can't say I've come accross that one.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> My daughter speaks grammatically correct English, this was taught to her by her mother and me whilst she was in her pre-school years.
> 
> Anything else you care do be disproved on?



You _taught_ your child English? Did you have a syllabus? How many lessons a week did you give her? I think you'll find that your child _learning_ English had nothing to with your skills as a teacher but rather her natural instinct and a bility to learn a language.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

madzone said:
			
		

> The sassaferrato theory of language acquisition - can't say I've come accross that one.



Tis no theory. If  a child doesn't have a grip of basic grammar by the time they go to school they are unlikely to ever get a grip.

Germany teaches English to nursery children, they are quite fluent by the age of 5 or 6. The earlier you teach language the better, it becomes second nature.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> You _taught_ your child English? Did you have a syllabus? How many lessons a week did you give her? I think you'll find that your child _learning_ English had nothing to with your skills as a teacher but rather her natural instinct and a bility to learn a language.



Indeed. grammar however is not learnt in that manner, it is learned by correcting incorrect usage. Certainly, if the parents speak good English, there is a very good chance that the children will.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Tis no theory. If  a child doesn't have a grip of basic grammar by the time they go to school they are unlikely to ever get a grip.



Not true. The ceiling for language learning is about 11 or 12. A 13 year old child will learn faster than an adult but will be unlikely to speak exactly like a native speaker.



> Germany teaches English to nursery children, they are quite fluent by the age of 5 or 6. The earlier you teach language the better, it becomes second nature.



It's not 'second' nature, learning language is one of our most basic instincts as children. Your sentence 'The earlier you teach language the better' is almost true but would be better as 'The earlier you learn language the better'.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Indeed. grammar however is not learnt in that manner, it is learned by correcting incorrect usage.



Could you support that statment because it's regarded as untrue by most professionals and scholars in the field of language aquisition.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sass. The wikkipedia page on language acquisition is quite thorough in an a-level essay sort of way.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> Could you support that statment because it's regarded as untrue by most professionals and scholars in the field of language aquisition.



Well, not being involved in language teaching I can only go by my own experience, both as a child and a parent.

My parents automatically corrected errors of grammar, we did the same with our daughter. 

Unfortunately we are now suffering from the time when grammar was not taught at school, we have a generation of parents who themselves are unsure of correct usage.


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## madzone (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Well, not being involved in language teaching I can only go by my own experience, both as a child and a parent.
> 
> My parents automatically corrected errors of grammar, we did the same with our daughter.
> 
> Unfortunately we are now suffering from the time when grammar was not taught at school, we have a generation of parents who themselves are unsure of correct usage.




Sass - do you actually know anything about language aquisition? It may be wise to look at the link maomao has posted to avoid any further confusion.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> Well, not being involved in language teaching I can only go by my own experience, both as a child and a parent.
> 
> My parents automatically corrected errors of grammar, we did the same with our daughter.



It seems to be almost instinctual on the part of parents to correct grammar, the point is it has been proved to have very little effect. The mistakes children make are generally systematic and generally come under the category of over application of a rule (for instance goed instead of went, but again this isn't learnt by 'correcting' but by noticing that people tend to say 'went') or application of the wrong rule.



> Unfortunately we are now suffering from the time when grammar was not taught at school, we have a generation of parents who themselves are unsure of correct usage.



Daily mail-isms I'm afraid. Seeing as languages aren't taught like that it can't have much effect. Schools would be much better off teaching language skills like effective writing than trawling through a bunch of 'rules' a lot of which are innapropriate and made up.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> It seems to be almost instinctual on the part of parents to correct grammar, the point is it has been proved to have very little effect. The mistakes children make are generally systematic and generally come under the category of over application of a rule (for instance goed instead of went, but again this isn't learnt by 'correcting' but by noticing that people tend to say 'went') or application of the wrong rule.
> 
> 
> 
> Daily mail-isms I'm afraid. Seeing as languages aren't taught like that it can't have much effect. Schools would be much better off teaching language skills like effective writing than trawling through a bunch of 'rules' a lot of which are innapropriate and made up.



One can only " notice " if exposed to correct usage, that and correction as reinforcement, works.

Your second paragraph is depressing, if this id the academic thought with regard to teaching of English, it is little wonder that standards have fallen so badly.


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## laptop (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> Could you support that statment because it's regarded as untrue by most professionals and scholars in the field of language aquisition.



You're talking past each other. By "grammar" you understand what professionals and scholars understand by it and what I do.

What Sasaferrato appears to understand by it is speaking in a manner of which a pedantic schoolmaster preparing one for Eton would approve, being careful all the while infinitives not to split. In other words a set of class markers, some of them deeply contrary to the actual grammar of the language.

Likely options for said daughter: emigrating, and/or turning punk poet


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> One can only " notice " if exposed to correct usage, that and correction as reinforcement, works.



Correction as reinforcment doesn't work. You don't believe that do you. Correct usage is relative. Your own speech would seem a bit odd to your grandfather's generation. Go back 15 or 20 generations and you'd start losing mutual intelligibility.



> Your second paragraph is depressing, if this id the academic thought with regard to teaching of English, it is little wonder that standards have fallen so badly.



Well telling children things like 'sentences can't end in a preposition' is just silly. It's a rule taken from another language. It would never have occured to a native speaker of Latin to end a sentence in a preposition, it just wouldn't make sense. How can we apply this to English. There are things that are worth learning, like making your sentences agree for number and tense when writing but these are still best learnt practically rather than running through rules.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> What Sasaferrato appears to understand by it is speaking in a manner of which a pedantic schoolmaster preparing one for Eton would approve, being careful all the while infinitives not to split. In other words a set of class markers, some of them deeply contrary to the actual grammar of the language.



The problem being that he was trying to apply those assumptions about how language should be taught (and Sasaferrato's view of the issue certainly isn't an uncommon one, and you're right that those markers of 'class' grammar are taught rather than aqcuired, precisely because some of them are so contrary to the actual grammar of the Englsh language) to Welsh and Gaelic.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> You're talking past each other. By "grammar" you understand what professionals and scholars understand by it and what I do.
> 
> What Sasaferrato appears to understand by it is speaking in a manner of which a pedantic schoolmaster preparing one for Eton would approve, being careful all the while infinitives not to split. In other words a set of class markers, some of them deeply contrary to the actual grammar of the language.
> 
> Likely options for said daughter: emigrating, and/or turning punk poet



No. Not speaking like a pedantic schoolmaster. No. Not preparing for Eton. No. Not reinforcing class markers.

Yes. Knowing which tense to use.
Yes. Having a reasonable vocabulary.
Yes. Being able to speak to anyone in their terms.

We both work in a customer services environment. We both speak to all classes and races daily. We are both understood properly by our clients.

The standard of spoken English is awful. How can you take someone's abilities seriously if they can't even be arsed to learn to speak their own language properly?


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> The problem being that he was trying to apply those assumptions about how language should be taught (and Sasaferrato's view of the issue certainly isn't an uncommon one, and you're right that those markers of 'class' grammar are taught rather than aqcuired, precisely because some of them are so contrary to the actual grammar of the Englsh language) to Welsh and Gaelic.



I bow to your superior knowlege. I wasn't aware that English grammar had different usages for different social classes.

It doesn't of course, only in the minds of the thick lumpen proletariat who cannot even bother to learn to speak their own language.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> I bow to your superior knowlege. I wasn't aware that English grammar had different usages for different social classes.



Well, rules like not splitting infinitves and not ending sentences with preositions are imposed rules, so they're symbols of a 'certain type' of education rather than of class though there's obviously some sort of connection. I'd rather not use the word 'class' than have an argument about class as long as you understand generally what I'm saying.



> It doesn't of course, only in the minds of the thick lumpen proletariat who cannot even bother to learn to speak their own language.



We'd all like people to be more effective communicators, the question is how that is achieved. As far as I can see the main problem with the education system at the moment is that teachers are too busy trying to prove that children have met certain standards, mostly as a reaction by politicians who know next to nothing about educational theory to sub daily mail whingings like yours about 'dropping' standards, to actually spend any time exposing children to the tools they need to learn. 

The idea that the 'thick, lumpen, proletariat' are too thcik to learn their own languages is a pretty reactionary one and I'm going to leave it there. There's a part of me that knows what you're talking about (and I've done a lot of work in customers services myself, so I know how annoying it is to be complained to by someone who isn't very good at talking) but I'd put most of it down to the prevailing 'anti-thinking-just-watch-tv-and-anyone-who-actually-thinks-about-what-they're-saying is-some-kind-of-intellectual-snob' culture of this country rather than slipping educational standards.


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## Sasaferrato (Jan 28, 2005)

maomao said:
			
		

> Well, rules like not splitting infinitves and not ending sentences with preositions are imposed rules, so they're symbols of a 'certain type' of education rather than of class though there's obviously some sort of connection. I'd rather not use the word 'class' than have an argument about class as long as you understand generally what I'm saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is a difference between deliberately sloppy language, and an inability to speak the language properly.

There has always been a degree of antipathy towards children who speak well, generally diverted by these children speaking the same patois as their peers in the playground.

There was a time when learning was valued more by the working class than it was for the middle and upper class. Education was regarded as the means of escape from drudgery, and it was.

My paternal grandfather was a gardener, he had three children who became; a senior civil servant, a Chartered Surveyor and an accountant. The famly went without so that the children could stay in education rather than leaving school at 14. Perhaps we take the gift of education too lightly now.

On an aside; there is a little island that lies off Harris called Scarp.

One family had five sons. They became; a doctor, a minister, a teacher and a lawyer. The youngest stayed at home and worked the croft. This was in the late forties and there wasn't much money about. I would doubt if there are many families in the land today that could match that level of achievement.


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## maomao (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> There is a difference between deliberately sloppy language, and an inability to speak the language properly.



Well perhaps you'd like to write a paper and share your views with the academic fraternity. Specific language impairments relating to syntax are very rare. I assure you that every speaker of every dialect of English is using a syntax of equal complexity and validity (or at least within the same performance parameters as other cognitive functions) whether or not the you view the language they speak as 'correct' or not.


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## laptop (Jan 28, 2005)

Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> We both work in a customer services environment.



Someone can, while lecturing others on the proper use of language, write this - apparently without a trace of irony, yet?

As I implied earlier, with the attitude you display it is very likely that your daughter will gain exquisite enjoyment from winding you up, quite soon. 

What maomao said about anti-thinking culture. 

The utter misunderstanding of language and wilful confusion of grammar with class markers that you display are major reinforcers of this: if the choice is between sounding like you and something else... it's a shame that the infant of clear thought gets thrown out with the stinking bath-water of snobbery, but you can see how it happens.

One of the most annoying problems I face is dealing with people whose "grammar" is perfect as you'd see it, but who have absolutely no idea how to express what they have in mind - rather expecting me to play a prolonged social game to extract the information from them. 

Give me someone who's taken the trouble to understand what they're talking about, whether it be in Island patois, broken Banglish or Eschry, any day. (And if they have taken that trouble, whatever it is they're speaking will be grammatical in its own terms.)


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## nwnm (Jul 26, 2006)

Tnn


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## ZIZI (Jul 27, 2006)

I wonder if they would consider air brushing the passport mug shot-I am sure I did'nt have that double chin and chubby cheeks.


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## lewislewis (Jul 28, 2006)

Good idea, don't see a problem with it.


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