# Trump comes to town, 13th July 2018 - mass protests expected



## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

was a bit surprised / encouraged by bods in my office talking about their mates sharing #RIOT hashtags from Instagram re: the just announced Trump visit on Thurs, declaring we're all taking the day off etc.

Then Lisa Mckenzie / CW slightly kicked my ass on twitter that night when we disagreed re: whether this was all just liberal virtue signalling, had little to do with the realities of the UK, where was the anger re: 150 Labour councils still up to their necks in social cleansing programmes accross the country etc etc.

I'll admit, am already a bit ambivalent re: liberal outrage vs Trump ( as Kanye  said this week, 'WTF did Obama do for Chicago in 8 yrs ') , and Mackenzie deffo helped reinforce some  misgivings re: potential Trump demos, but on the the other hand, if the people are taking genuinely felt, instinctive opposition to a much despised head of the global ruling class to the streets...which side are you on ?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2018)

Middle of the road myself


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## chilango (Apr 28, 2018)

I've never felt comfortable enough to join in with the kneejerk anti-Trumpism that even Tory voting BTLers I know eagerly parrot.

I won't be joining these protests.


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## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

chilango said:


> I've never felt comfortable enough to join in with the kneejerk anti-Trumpism that even Tory voting BTLers I know eagerly parrot.
> 
> I won't be joining these protests.



suns shining, everyone's up for it, talk of Poll Tax style shenans, right wing wankers claiming they're going to come out in support...and you'll still swerve ?


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## rekil (Apr 28, 2018)

chilango said:


> I've never felt comfortable enough to join in with the kneejerk anti-Trumpism that even Tory voting BTLers I know eagerly parrot.
> 
> I won't be joining these protests.


PD should distribute a pamphlet offering critical support for our illegalist comrade.


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## chilango (Apr 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> suns shining, everyone's up for it, talk of Poll Tax style shenans, right wing wankers claiming they're going to come out in support...and you'll still swerve ?



Yeah. I'll take the risk that history proves me wrong on this one.


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## planetgeli (Apr 28, 2018)

Every woman I know thinks Trump is a cunt and given half a chance they'd stick a, er, stick of dynamite up his arse. But they're probably all whining liberals who moan too much about creepy men grabbing pussies right?

After all, why would anyone protest against a corrupt millionaire who has bought his way to power, paying off those other rich business cunts he's owed favours on the way eh? Especially when Kanye thinks otherwise.

Fucking liberals.


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## dessiato (Apr 28, 2018)

When is he going to the UK? I might be able join the protests.


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## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Every woman I know thinks Trump is a cunt and given half a chance they'd stick a, er, stick of dynamite up his arse. But they're probably all whining liberals who moan too much about creepy men grabbing pussies right?
> 
> After all, why would anyone protest against a corrupt millionaire who has bought his way to power, paying off those other rich business cunts he's owed favours on the way eh? Especially when Kanye thinks otherwise.
> 
> Fucking liberals.



agreed, there's too much 'anti liberal' virtue signalling washing about at the moment in general, folk are ending up painting themselves into some ridiculous ideological corners


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## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

chilango said:


> Yeah. I'll take the risk that history proves me wrong on this one.



interesting, what kind of outcome / in regards to what/when, would constitute history proving you right / wrong here ?


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## existentialist (Apr 28, 2018)

dessiato said:


> When is he going to the UK? I might be able join the protests.


13 July.


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## twentythreedom (Apr 28, 2018)

dessiato said:


> When is he going to the UK? I might be able join the protests.


13 July


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## twentythreedom (Apr 28, 2018)

Definitely 13 July

Presumably here on the 14th too


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## DotCommunist (Apr 28, 2018)

dessiato said:


> When is he going to the UK? I might be able join the protests.


July allegedly. So as mentioned the weather should be nice. Make yourself a packed lunch and take a flask of tea. Apparently everyone who goes gets a 10 pounds from george soros, so wahey.

I might go it depends on my funds and the weather/other commitments. It was better for me when he was allegedly going to be somewhere in the Birmingham region. I still don't think it'll actually happen though, just more talk imo.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 28, 2018)

chilango said:


> Yeah. I'll take the risk that history proves me wrong on this one.


I remember deciding not to go on the student do with added extinguisher chucking because student demos so dull and tame


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## chilango (Apr 28, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I remember deciding not to go on the student do with added extinguisher chucking because student demos so dull and tame



I missed Waterloo to go to Spain on a cheap holiday.


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## LDC (Apr 28, 2018)

chilango said:


> I've never felt comfortable enough to join in with the kneejerk anti-Trumpism that even Tory voting BTLers I know eagerly parrot.
> 
> I won't be joining these protests.



Thank you! I was trying to bring myself to say something about this and how I think it's (possibly even worse than) a dead end.


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## dessiato (Apr 28, 2018)

Thanks. I'm in the UK then. Just need to be certain where I am that day.


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## LDC (Apr 28, 2018)

The winners will be the SWP front that takes credit for the organisation, shit-politics-activist-do-nothing-but-spectacular-demos, and liberal UK democracy which will bask in the smugness of itself as not as nasty and crass as Trump.


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## JimW (Apr 28, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The winners will be the SWP front that takes credit for the organisation, shit-politics-activist-do-nothing-but-spectacular-demos, and liberal UK democracy which will bask in the smugness of itself as not as nasty and crass as Trump.


Shouldn't think 'hated by European liberals' would do Trump much harm with his base either.


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## cantsin (Apr 28, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The winners will be the SWP front that takes credit for the organisation, shit-politics-activist-do-nothing-but-spectacular-demos, and liberal UK democracy which will bask in the smugness of itself as not as nasty and crass as Trump.



hard to disagree with any of this - but additional 'what if' scenario  :  the people get it together, as we occasionally do, and it all gets properly militant/ messy on the day, the Trump circus has to go home with images flashing around the world of chaos + opposition swirling around him (3 months before mid terms ) - his base won't be shifted / affected, the oppo don't need much more convincing, but wldn't necc help his standing amongst the waverers when added to the narrative of 'rolling shitshow 'that surrounds his tenure internally.

Plus UK wise : vibrant, militant, IRL / participatory direct action on a big scale might be a useful/ positive addition to the virtual / soc media (non) activism so many of us consume day to day


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## kenny g (Apr 28, 2018)

The appropriate response in July of all months is surely pretty obvious?


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## LDC (Apr 28, 2018)

Yeah, in some ways I agree that useful political outcomes (in the immediate aftermath) are _possible_.

But we're lacking a base for this support or activity to then feed into on a day-to-day organizing and agitating level. And on some level I think the format of extra-parliamentary/radical left wing politics are kept in this position by much of the dynamics that surround things like this mobilization against Trump's visit.

The left is actually good at mounting large demos 'against things'. It's what comes after this, and then feeds back into other things that it's so completely lacking in, and without a cultural/political change to sort that out then this kind of thing is just pretty much pointless (but maybe fun) at best and damaging at worst imo.


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## Mordi (Apr 28, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I remember deciding not to go on the student do with added extinguisher chucking because student demos so dull and tame



Shame they went back to form after that one. Everyone was well pysched.


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## chilango (Apr 29, 2018)

cantsin said:


> interesting, what kind of outcome / in regards to what/when, would constitute history proving you right / wrong here ?



Significant numbers of people going beyond "Boo! Trump" and using the experience to contribute to something ongoing domestically.

That'd prove me wrong.


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## chilango (Apr 29, 2018)

Also note I didn't mention liberals.


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## ska invita (Apr 29, 2018)

What will be discussed with the government when Trump comes? I expect post-Brexit trade deals....


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## Wilf (Apr 29, 2018)

ska invita said:


> What will be discussed with the government when Trump comes? I expect post-Brexit trade deals....


He's coming to have a look at Hadrian's Wall.


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## seeformiles (Apr 29, 2018)

How about a protest of thousands merely turning their backs on him and remaining silent? A lot less effort and one that may show up better on the international media. I was about to stockpile my Piss in bottles but, thinking about it, perhaps a public denial of attention may be a TV friendly way to show a lack of approval.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 29, 2018)

There are millions of people around the country whose reaction to Trump visiting is going to be "I want to go and call him a cunt". I think this is entirely proper and healthy.


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## seeformiles (Apr 29, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There are millions of people around the country whose reaction to Trump visiting is going to be "I want to go and call him a cunt". I think this is entirely proper and healthy.



I won’t deny that that tactic is valid and the most obvious first line of defence but, as he’s used to this and thrives on such attention, it may be better to give him something he’s not expecting i.e. silence and turning your back. It would make a very surreal live coverage of the event.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 29, 2018)

seeformiles said:


> I won’t deny that that tactic is valid and the most obvious first line of defence but, as he’s used to this and thrives on such attention, it may be better to give him something he’s not expecting i.e. silence and turning your back. It would make a very surreal live coverage of the event.


It's not for him though - he doesn't care, whatever happens.


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## maomao (Apr 29, 2018)

I turned up for Bush. I don't see why I shouldn't turn up for Trump. It's one thing arguing with people about why Trump's happened and what the real problems are but I don't think any US president should arrive in this country without some protest.


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## seeformiles (Apr 29, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not for him though - he doesn't care, whatever happens.



True - I just wonder whether more subtle targeted action might be more effective against someone who appears oblivious to conventional protests against him. (& I’m someone who threw eggs at Casper Weinberger back in the day )


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## DotCommunist (Apr 29, 2018)

he's bone obsessed with numbers, be they mythical bank account figures, crowds for his inauguration, the ratings of which ever soap star he is cunting off on twitter or what have you. So more the merrier, play 'who can collect all the trot/etc literature' and the favourite game for out of towners 'oh shit I don't think I can get back through this crowd quick enough to make my train/bus' game. That last ones a bit shit tbf


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## Yossarian (Apr 29, 2018)

JimW said:


> Shouldn't think 'hated by European liberals' would do Trump much harm with his base either.



There still seems to be some lingering feeling among some Americans that British people are smarter and classier than average, I think having massive protests in Britain will be a major embarrassment for Trump at the very least.

And yeah, there are a lot of other things people could be protesting, but his climate policies alone are going to screw us all, which makes him a very legitimate target for protest anyplace he goes.


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## klang (Apr 29, 2018)

seeformiles said:


> I just wonder whether more subtle targeted action


i'd rather make his visit as expensive as possible.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 29, 2018)

seeformiles said:


> True - I just wonder whether more subtle targeted action might be more effective against someone who appears oblivious to conventional protests against him. (& I’m someone who threw eggs at Casper Weinberger back in the day )


I don't think that any protests against him would actually change his view - he's such a dedicated narcissist.

All we have left is (a) indicating to the government that he's incredibly unpopular and attempts to ally with him would be political death, and (b) showing that to any foreign journalists who care at all. We hate this person who's been invited over; this can't be passed off as a nice diplomatic visit. We need to make sure that nobody can even get a shot of him anywhere outdoors in London without a sign somewhere in the background calling him a cunt.


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## yield (Apr 29, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Every woman I know thinks Trump is a cunt and given half a chance they'd stick a, er, stick of dynamite up his arse. But they're probably all whining liberals who moan too much about creepy men grabbing pussies right?
> 
> After all, why would anyone protest against a corrupt millionaire who has bought his way to power, paying off those other rich business cunts he's owed favours on the way eh? Especially when Kanye thinks otherwise.
> 
> Fucking liberals.


Some of my best friends are liberals.

Make allies with those who are there, rather than those you wish were there. I'll be going.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 29, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The winners will be the SWP front that takes credit for the organisation,



That hasn't worked for them the last 476,451,306,127 times they've done it tbf.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 29, 2018)

Personally I'm more interested in what mischief can be got up to while every copper in the land is down in London protecting the imbecile in chief.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 29, 2018)

cantsin said:


> , talk of Poll Tax style shenans,


Never going to happen not in a million years. Utterly deluded to think they will be any more "messy" than the anti-Bush protests. It'll very much be an establishment affair, plenty of wanker politicians giving speeches.



maomao said:


> I turned up for Bush. I don't see why I shouldn't turn up for Trump. It's one thing arguing with people about why Trump's happened and what the real problems are but I don't think any US president should arrive in this country without some protest.


While I agree with the second sentence I think there are significant differences between the protests when Bush came and how the anti-Trump protests seem to be shaping up.

First, the Bush protests were part of the anti-war protests which had the potential to feed into something, unfortunately all that promise was pissed up against the wall, but nevertheless at the time there was the idea of something more coming from them. Second, while there was an establishment presence on the Bush protests, you had a very significant proportion of the establishment supporting the war and so the protests were against the powers that be to at least some extent (which feeds back into the fist point).

I hope I'm wrong but I don't see any anti-Trump protest becoming part of something wider or deeper and I would be amazed if it's not shot through with the establishment. Chock full of Labour and LD politicians, maybe even a few Cons.


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## xenon (Apr 29, 2018)

Gestures are performative.


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## ska invita (Apr 29, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> Never going to happen not in a million years. Utterly deluded to think they will be any more "messy" than the anti-Bush protests. It'll very much be an establishment affair, plenty of wanker politicians giving speeches.


at a location nowhere near where Trump is


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## Red Sky (Apr 29, 2018)

Compensation for wrongful arrest flowed thick and fast after the Bush visit.


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## yield (Apr 29, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> Never going to happen not in a million years. Utterly deluded to think they will be any more "messy" than the anti-Bush protests. It'll very much be an establishment affair, plenty of wanker politicians giving speeches.
> 
> While I agree with the second sentence I think there are significant differences between the protests when Bush came and how the anti-Trump protests seem to be shaping up.
> 
> ...


You'd think RS, but a lot of the people I drink with and their kids aren't making ends meet. Lots of anger in town now.

Things are febrile. If the weather is good anything is possible.


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## Wilf (Apr 29, 2018)

Wouldn't surprise me if there's a reasonable turnout for mainly liberal protests. Remnants of stwc and whatever the remnants of the swp can muster, along with all manner of people who turn out on remainiac demos, reasonable number of anti-sexual violence protesters given that the potus is a rapist, a few younger anarchos, a thin smattering of black blocs.  Will/should attract anti-racism protesters too. Demonstrators will be kettled or just not even try to get anywhere near him.  Fair number of arrests for sit down protests, but not many for anything more serious. 

Be delighted to be proved wrong, but given what I'm guessing will be the Hilary-ist and remainiac tone of the demonstrators, I'll feel ambiguous about the whole thing.


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## patman post (Apr 29, 2018)

It’s the President of the USA visiting. The fact it’s Trump who’s currently the laughing stock of the whole world should make no difference — well if we wish to continue with the “special relationship”, that is. Must have been to see Macron being the focus of that accolade by Donald. But surely the UK must be bigger than that...?


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## xenon (Apr 29, 2018)

patman post said:


> It’s the President of the USA visiting. The fact it’s Trump who’s currently the laughing stock of the whole world should make no difference — well if we wish to continue with the “special relationship”, that is. Must have been to see Macron being the focus of that accolade by Donald. But surely the UK must be bigger than that...?


Not how it works. Respect the office. Pfft


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## Wilf (Apr 29, 2018)

patman post said:


> It’s the President of the USA visiting. The fact it’s Trump who’s currently the laughing stock of the whole world should make no difference — well if we wish to continue with the “special relationship”, that is. Must have been to see Macron being the focus of that accolade by Donald. But surely the UK must be bigger than that...?


A rapey, anti-worker, anti-welfare, racist comes to town. Oh, hang on, I'll get the bunting.


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## patman post (Apr 30, 2018)

Wilf said:


> A rapey, anti-worker, anti-welfare, racist comes to town. Oh, hang on, I'll get the bunting.


Maybe with bunting he’ll let slip how he got the US economy soaring and how he’s got China to kick some sense into North Korea...


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## Wilf (Apr 30, 2018)

patman post said:


> Maybe with bunting he’ll let slip how he got the US economy soaring and how he’s got China to kick some sense into North Korea...


Almost all of the areas of economic success are a continuation of previous trends. Others see no progress at all or are going the other way:
Trump and the US economy in six charts
Now, about the rapey, anti-worker, anti-welfare, racism...?


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## redsquirrel (Apr 30, 2018)

yield said:


> You'd think RS, but a lot of the people I drink with and their kids aren't making ends meet. Lots of anger in town now.
> 
> Things are febrile. If the weather is good anything is possible.


But it's not really is it. Security will be monstrous, the official demo will be chock full of crap and the very fact that this will be pulling in all sorts mean that it's highly, highly unlikely that anything will be kicking off. 

That's not to say people shouldn't go but lets be clear-eyed about what these protests will be and what they won't be.


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## LDC (Apr 30, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> That hasn't worked for them the last 476,451,306,127 times they've done it tbf.



It does though, it's all grist to their political mill.

They swamp the place with placards, sell papers, chat people up, and generally give the impression to people 'new' to politics that they're the people to join and get involved with. (Although given the recent years I'm not sure they have this any more, at least not as much as previously.)


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## LDC (Apr 30, 2018)

You won't be able to move for (Fortress) Europe flags at this demo. Lovely.

Not suggesting people don't go, but don't be thinking this could be some poll tax moment.


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## cupid_stunt (Apr 30, 2018)

I've just looked on the SWP website, as well as promoting a whole load of events that happened last week, they have croker this on their 'about us' page. 



> We’re proud of our long record of supporting the workers’ movement in Britain, from its high point in the early 1970s, through the tremendous battles fought against Margaret Thatcher’s government in the 1980s, right up to today’s strikes against austerity and David Cameron’s coalition.



Piss-ups in breweries come to mind.


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## chilango (Apr 30, 2018)

This book argues that groups like the SWP fail to gain members, and often lose members, when doing this kind of thing.

I wouldn't worry too much about that side of things.


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## LDC (Apr 30, 2018)

chilango said:


> This book argues that groups like the SWP fail to gain members, and often lose members, when doing this kind of thing.
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about that side of things.



Yeah, in some ways I think it's been less about getting signed up members, and more about them gaining people who associate them with radical left politics. Anyway, I think generally you're right, their ship has sailed in that regard, ironically probably with the space taken by Labour/Momentum.


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## Jeff Robinson (Apr 30, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not for him though - he doesn't care, whatever happens.



I’m not so sure, the orange nonce has cancelled two state visits now, reportedly because he’s not too enamoured with the thought of a frosty reception:

Trump cancelled his UK visit because he wouldn't get 'the love he believes he deserves', says Michael Wolff


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## chilango (Apr 30, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, in some ways I think it's been less about getting signed up members, and more about them gaining people who associate them with radical left politics. Anyway, I think generally you're right, their ship has sailed in that regard, ironically probably with the space taken by Labour/Momentum.



Couple of snippets.


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## chilango (Apr 30, 2018)

...and back to this visit.

I'm not for a second trying to dissuade anyone from going along and protesting. Rather, trying to illustrate why I'm less than enthusiastic about it and (almost certainly) won't be joining in.


I'm tired of hearing (privileged conservative m/c Brits in my experience, though others' experience may of course be different) sneering at "stupid Americans who think they're going to get their jobs back". 
It's nothing like the Poll Tax. The riot was just the icing on the cake of a massive, well rooted, community based movement. The mass non-payment was the genuinely exciting thing to take from that imo.
Even if (and its a fucking massive "if") it kicks off big time...so what? What is there to feed back into? There's precious little of a "left" around and what there is is pretty fucked up right now.
The cops have had plenty of practise at this kinda thing now. 
Trump, at best, won't give a shit. At worst, he'll revel in it.

Otoh...if you and your mates go and have a fun day out and maybe meet some like-minded people, then great. Enjoy.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 30, 2018)

chilango said:


> Trump, at best, won't give a shit


except all evidence I've seen from hs behaviour  suggests his narcissism means he does care, the numbers.


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## rekil (Apr 30, 2018)

Boos for Trump in July, hoorays for the red Pope in Ireland in August.


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## LDC (Apr 30, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> except all evidence I've seen from hs behaviour  suggests his narcissism means he does care, the numbers.



But why does it matter if he cares? For sure he'd rather have crowds welcoming him, but whether he cares or not is a shit reason for doing it or not isn't it?


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## DotCommunist (Apr 30, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> But why does it matter if he cares? For sure he'd rather have crowds welcoming him, but whether he cares or not is a shit reason for doing it or not isn't it?


it may be a shit reason, I'm pointing out that its untrue to say he wouldn't give a shit, from what I've seen he's thin skinned and crucially, unable to hide it. Is that politics? no. Might be a good day out in the sun, as I say it depends on time/funds/inclination. If it turns into the remainer show then I'll likely swerve it. I'm still not sure how you are getting the 'worse than ineffective' thing from. Ineffective for sure, but how worse? Cos it'll suck up energy and divert people into momentum? that ship left port didn't it


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## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2018)

chilango said:


> ...and back to this visit.
> 
> I'm not for a second trying to dissuade anyone from going along and protesting. Rather, trying to illustrate why I'm less than enthusiastic about it and (almost certainly) won't be joining in.
> 
> ...


i don't know who you're listening to about american jobs, but from the sounds of it they're unlikely to turn out in great numbers to oppose djt. the poll tax riot of 31 march was off the back of a string of town hall riots and over a year of anti-poll tax activism in england (certainly there was activity in haringey in 1988, i saw the haringey anti-poll tax union minute book). but things happening against trump is from another tradition, that which has seen demonstrations against the likes of le pen and george w bush. if it kicks off big time it might be an isolated event. but it could enthuse people to campaign, and if it kicks off big time i think it's possible there'll be a need for a subsequent defendants' campaign. yeh the cops have had plenty of practice at this sort of thing. but then they'd had a lot of practice by 1990, by 1994 (hyde park), by 1999 (city of london)... and if there isn't a demonstration you can guarantee trump will say 'they said i wasn't welcome here but you can see i am'.


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## xenon (Apr 30, 2018)

Why do the SWP always get brought up. No one normal knows or gives a fuck who they even are.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2018)

chilango said:


> Couple of snippets.
> 
> View attachment 134076
> View attachment 134077


the reason the swp and militant lost members is because people saw what the organizations were like at times of an upsurge of activity.

i am sure i'm not the only person who can recall the shameful swp withdrawal from anti-poll tax activity, to the extent that when visiting people from the swp who remained involved i had to go round after dark so their erstwhile comrades wouldn't see what they were up to.


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## redsquirrel (Apr 30, 2018)

I don't think the SWP (or any Trots) are going to be an issue for this one. They'll be outnumbered many times over by the #FBPE wankers


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## Lord Camomile (Apr 30, 2018)

xenon said:


> Why do the SWP always get brought up. No one normal knows or gives a fuck who they even are.


Hey, I know who they... oh, right.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 30, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I’m not so sure, the orange nonce has cancelled two state visits now, reportedly because he’s not too enamoured with the thought of a frosty reception:
> 
> Trump cancelled his UK visit because he wouldn't get 'the love he believes he deserves', says Michael Wolff


Sure he’s sensitive about this stuff, but what I mean is that he’s never going to change his behaviour on that basis. He’ll never think “maybe I should not be such a cunt”, he’ll just think it’s terribly unfair.


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## Voley (Apr 30, 2018)

Been a while since I've been up to That London for fun 'n' games. Could be tempted by this.


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## Jeff Robinson (Apr 30, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sure he’s sensitive about this stuff, but what I mean is that he’s never going to change his behaviour on that basis. He’ll never think “maybe I should not be such a cunt”, he’ll just think it’s terribly unfair.



Oh that goes without saying.


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## cantsin (Apr 30, 2018)

ED / Moderator : can i politely request we lose the 'mass protests expected' part to the thread title that's been added, on the grounds it's a  bit uneccessary /wasn't really was i wanted to put ?

ta


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## bemused (Apr 30, 2018)

Voley said:


> Been a while since I've been up to That London for fun 'n' games. Could be tempted by this.



I'm going, it'll be a hoot. 

Unless it rains then I won't


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## mx wcfc (Apr 30, 2018)

Late to the thread, but I'm very much of the opinion that Trump would be better met by empty streets. 

That would fuck his ego more.  There is nothing he'd like more than seeing the Met break a few heads.

I'm probably just too old to be dealing with a big demo these days.  Been on too many to know I'm not up to it these days.  

Anyone going - have fun and stay safe.


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## Mordi (Apr 30, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think that any protests against him would actually change his view - he's such a dedicated narcissist.
> 
> All we have left is (a) indicating to the government that he's incredibly unpopular and attempts to ally with him would be political death, and (b) showing that to any foreign journalists who care at all. We hate this person who's been invited over; this can't be passed off as a nice diplomatic visit. We need to make sure that nobody can even get a shot of him anywhere outdoors in London without a sign somewhere in the background calling him a cunt.



I'd add to this showing solidarity with those facing charges and long prison terms for daring to protest the inauguration.


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## Wilf (Apr 30, 2018)

cantsin said:


> was a bit surprised / encouraged by bods in my office talking about their mates sharing #RIOT hashtags from Instagram re: the just announced Trump visit on Thurs, declaring we're all taking the day off etc.
> 
> Then Lisa Mckenzie / CW slightly kicked my ass on twitter that night when we disagreed re: whether this was all just liberal virtue signalling, had little to do with the realities of the UK, where was the anger re: 150 Labour councils still up to their necks in social cleansing programmes accross the country etc etc.
> 
> I'll admit, am already a bit ambivalent re: liberal outrage vs Trump ( as Kanye  said this week, 'WTF did Obama do for Chicago in 8 yrs ') , and Mackenzie deffo helped reinforce some  misgivings re: potential Trump demos, but on the the other hand, if the people are taking genuinely felt, instinctive opposition to a much despised head of the global ruling class to the streets...which side are you on ?


I think we are forgetting some of the above - Trump is a cunt - a rapey, anti-welfare, anti-working class, racist cunt. Fine by me if people want to protest his visit... _vigorously_. But he's an easy target, literally, in that it becomes a day out. Different to getting involved in the hard work of union/community/class resistance.  There may be a fair number out for Trump, but there will be an element of virtue signalling and the tone will be predominantly liberal.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 1, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I think we are forgetting some of the above - Trump is a cunt - a rapey, anti-welfare, anti-working class, racist cunt. Fine by me if people want to protest his visit... _vigorously_. But he's an easy target, literally, in that it becomes a day out. Different to getting involved in the hard work of union/community/class resistance.  There may be a fair number out for Trump, but there will be an element of virtue signalling and the tone will be predominantly liberal.



I think the fact that Trump is an easy target is precisely why demos against him are so important. What we want to do is ensure that he remains an easy target, that his thuggish racism and extreme misogyny, to pick just two things, are not normalised as part of political discourse.

I think I can envisage a retort to what I’ve said above that some will hold here: racism and misogyny were already a normal part of mainstream politics: under Obama the deportation of immigrants actually increased, as did drone warfare, and police brutality was unaffected. In the UK we have windrush, Yale’s Wood, the Calais debacle and so on. The fact that these policies and programs have been administered by politicans who have mastered the dark arts of PC double speak makes them all the more insidious and obscured. Leftists should devote more energy to taking on racist and sexist policies, institutions and attitudes and not just go for easy targets like buffoons like Trump.

These points are well taken and I sympathise with them. What I would say in response is that the ‘out in the open’ misogyny and racism of someone like Trump poses a distinct set of dangers that must be resisted: if these sort of sentiments and ideas become normalised it has an array of toxic effects on society. How much harder, for example, will it now be in the US to promote the bodily autonomy and bodily integrity of women when they have a president who brags about sexual assault and has, for his whole adult life, treated women like they are nothing?

As a point of comparison, let’s think about the situation in the UK in contrast to the current political situation in the US re racism. Clearly the windrush scandal exposes racism at the highest levels of government. But it has also been an huge embarrisment for them: it led to the resignation of the Home Secretary and commitments to address the injustices they have caused. Of course this isn’t because they just woke up one day and saw the errors of their ways, it’s because know that their decisions have now become politically costly for them, that they will lose votes in the upcoming local elections as a result. 

This is only because we still have in this country a culture in which shame can be mobilised against openly racist policies: the dark arts of PC require a nominal commitment to fairness, equality and the like and that can be used to leverage shame against flagrant discrimination (note, not trying to be complacent here, the UK has a long way to go re racism). Can we imagine that shame could be mobilised in a similar way against Trump’s thuggish administration for pursuing nakedly racist policies? I can’t, certainly cannot after the ‘Muslim ban’. This is because Trumpism holds itself to no standards and bulldozes all opposition.

The worry is that the normalisation of Trumpism will have a coarsening effect on political discourse, erode democratic norms and strengthen authoritarian populism. These distinct challenges ought to be acknowledged and resisted by the left.

Tl:dr - go to London and raise hell.


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## redsquirrel (May 1, 2018)

But nobody is going to be raising hell are they Jeff, if they were I'd be far less ambivalent about these protests.

The fact is that as Wilf says these protests are going to be a day out at the fair, and a fair that has a large proportion of wankers among both its participants and organisers. Nothing wrong with that, might even be fun, but lets not pretend it's anything else.


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## ska invita (May 1, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't think the SWP (or any Trots) are going to be an issue for this one. They'll be outnumbered many times over by the #FBPE wankers


For those like me who had to look it up


> If you have been on social media over the last few weeks, you may have seen people tagging posts with the hashtag #FBPE, or using #FBPE in their usernames. But what does it mean? The hashtag was first used on Twitter in October by Hendrik Klaassens, a Dutch social media user, who posted: “#ProEU tweeps organize Follow Back Saturdays! Type #FollowBackProEU or #FBPE if you want to get more #ProEU followers. Let’s do this!” in an attempt to build up a network of pro-EU users.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 1, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> But nobody is going to be raising hell are they Jeff, if they were I'd be far less ambivalent about these protests.
> 
> The fact is that as Wilf says these protests are going to be a day out at the fair, and a fair that has a large proportion of wankers among both its participants and organisers. Nothing wrong with that, might even be fun, but lets not pretend it's anything else.



I’m not going to be so dismissive in advance of the nature of the demo or of the people who attend it, but in any event, it doesn’t matter to me. What matters is large numbers of people turning out to make it loud and clear that fascistic demagogues aren’t welcome in the UK. 

And calling it a ‘fair’ is condescending and arrogant, it’s people exercising their democratic voice against the State visit of a wannabe tyrant who promotes nazis and brags about sexually abusing women. That’s a good thing right?


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## chilango (May 1, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> And calling it a ‘fair’ is condescending and arrogant



I was gonna call it a _pantomime_. Largely because Trump plays the role of pantomime villain at which the audience boo and hiss and have a good time doing so and then go home satiated.

I initially resisted doing so because I knew it would appear condescending and arrogant. Which I didn't want to do. It also dismisses the genuine anger or fear that a section of those turning out will be feeling.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 1, 2018)

chilango said:


> I was gonna call it a _pantomime_. Largely because Trump plays the role of pantomime villain at which the audience boo and hiss and have a good time doing so and then go home satiated.
> 
> I initially resisted doing so because I knew it would appear condescending and arrogant. Which I didn't want to do. It also dismisses the genuine anger or fear that a section of those turning out will be feeling.



I think it’s fair to call Trump a pantomime villain. The terrible thing though is that the pantomime is actually real. I also think your point about catharsis and it’s pacifying effects is well made. But surely it would be worse if there were no protests at all?


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## cantsin (May 1, 2018)

ska invita said:


> For those like me who had to look it up



wonder if the #PCPEU brigade will be out and about on the day ? ( not 'wankers' imo, but wrong, on EU)


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2018)

chilango said:


> I was gonna call it a _pantomime_. Largely because Trump plays the role of pantomime villain at which the audience boo and hiss and have a good time doing so and then go home satiated.
> 
> I initially resisted doing so because I knew it would appear condescending and arrogant. Which I didn't want to do. It also dismisses the genuine anger or fear that a section of those turning out will be feeling.


 No matter what happens I do not expect to go home satiated


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> But nobody is going to be raising hell are they Jeff, if they were I'd be far less ambivalent about these protests.
> 
> The fact is that as Wilf says these protests are going to be a day out at the fair, and a fair that has a large proportion of wankers among both its participants and organisers. Nothing wrong with that, might even be fun, but lets not pretend it's anything else.


All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.


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## chilango (May 1, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.



So a key question for this, or any other, protest is:  _Where has it come from and where might it go next?_


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2018)

chilango said:


> So a key question for this, or any other, protest is:  _Where has it come from and where might it go next?_


Yeh. But it doesn't to my mind greatly matter where it has come from if it serves as a vehicle to further progressive agendas. For example it didn't greatly matter who called the 15/2/03 anti-war march, nor who organised the 31/03/90 march, nor even J18. There will be a wide range of groups out, some with m/c liberal agendas, some with more interesting politics, some attending simply out of a visceral hatred of trump. But the more reactionary views will be heard less than those of groups like cw: the demonstration could act as a fillip for domestic dissent.


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## ska invita (May 1, 2018)

cantsin said:


> wonder if the #PCPEU brigade will be out and about on the day ? ( not 'wankers' imo, but wrong, on EU)





> What the anti-Brexit hashtags mean
> FBPE: Follow Back Pro-EU A hashtag that helps with community-building for anti-Brexit people on Twitter. The hashtag tells prospective followers that the user will follow them in turn if they are pro-EU.
> 
> PCPEU: Pro-Corbyn Pro-EU After some tensions in the FBPE community over how to treat Labour supporters loyal to the leader, a new hashtag emerged for the group caught between two stools: those who support the Brexit-backing Jeremy Corbyn, but also personally want to Remain.
> ...


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## redsquirrel (May 1, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> But doesn't to my mind greatly matter where it has come from if it serves as a vehicle to further progressive agendas.<snip> But the more reactionary views will be heard less than those of groups like cw: the demonstration could act as a fillip for domestic dissent.


I completely agree with the first sentence, my problem is that I am extremely skeptical that this protest _will_ act as a vehicle to further progressive agendas. I think voices like CW will be drowned out (as has happened in the protests against Trump elsewhere in the world).


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## cantsin (May 1, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.



maybe not the protest in isolation, but multiple poll tax protests, climaxing with the big one ( and after the long building non payment campaign) , helped end the Poll Tax , and arguably Thatchers tenure


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## chilango (May 1, 2018)

You can't isolate the Poll Tax rioters from the community based movement that it came from. The networks of solidarity, mutual aid and mass defiance. That were everywhere. Even in my corner of rural North Wales.

As a comparuson for this anti-Trump things it's way off. So way off as to be meaningless.

And this is where I disagree with Pickman's model.

I do believe it matters where it comes from. What's led to it. That not only "sets the tone" but provides the infrastructure (or lack of it) crucial to anything that might follow it.


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## Mordi (May 1, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> All protests are days out at the fair as no protest of my experience has on its own resulted in change.



I'm with you on this, but the adventurist in me says that when things have been different in my experience it's 'cos folk have prepared. For all the tedium of a-b strolls occasionally individuals can break free from the overwhelming powerlessness these events can instill. 

The importance of solid campaigning and organising can't be overstated in creating the conditions and I think most are right to suspect that a mass of liberals is unlikely to produce the powder keg, but who knows. Trump is certainly emotive enough to get people worked up.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 1, 2018)

When thinking about ‘what will the protest achieve?’ we ought not merely concern ourselves with its concrete outcomes (which are often very difficult to measure anyhow) but also with its expressive and communicative aspects too (see Expressive and instrumental actions).

 It seems that, in addition to concerns about the lack of positive concrete outcomes from the protest, the worry of some on this thread is that the expressive and communicative aspects of the protest will be dominated by problematic voices that will render it counter-productive. This is not something I am overly concerned with myself, but if it were I wouldn’t think the appropriate response would be to not attend the protests, which seems to be a form of surrender. Instead surely one ought to show up with their own comrades, their own banners, and their own literature to make the presence felt and their arguments heard? That is, unless they think the State visit of the UK’s most powerful ally — who also happens to be the leader of the sole world superpower and a megalomaniacal racist and misogynist to boot - isn’t worthy of any political response?


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## redsquirrel (May 1, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I’m not going to be so dismissive in advance of the nature of the demo or of the people who attend it,


So at which anti-Trump protests has “hell been raised”? Is the participation/organisation of large sections of the establishment more or less likely to cause things to kick off or not? What about the fact that this (like the anti-Bush protests) is likely to attract people from all over the political spectrum?

It’s not dismissive to look at the evidence and to conclude that the likelihood of people "raising hell" is low.



Jeff Robinson said:


> And calling it a ‘fair’ is condescending and arrogant, it’s people exercising their democratic voice against the State visit of a wannabe tyrant who promotes nazis and brags about sexually abusing women. That’s a good thing right?


Is it? Always and forever? Is protesting against British military action in Syria a good thing if it ends up providing cover and/or support for conspiraloon pro-Assad filth? Is protesting against leaving the EU a good thing it it involves defending/supporting the EU? Not in my view. Likewise if protests against Trump end up providing support to the Lab/LD/Con politicians that are responsible for policies that have damaged society for the last 30+ years then I don't think that's a good thing. Now in the case of these protests I don’t think they will do that_,_ I just don’t think they’ll lead anywhere - good or bad.

But anti-Trumpism as politics, like anti-Bushism and anti-UKIPism before it, is harmful. It shuts down any alternative to (neo)liberalism and strengthens the very people that are responsible for the politics that led to Trumps election. You only have to glance at the Trump threads on these boards to see the regressive politics that is anti-Trumpism.


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## Pickman's model (May 1, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> I completely agree with the first sentence, my problem is that I am extremely skeptical that this protest _will_ act as a vehicle to further progressive agendas. I think voices like CW will be drowned out (as has happened in the protests against Trump elsewhere in the world).


The sun iirc printed the class war keep it spikey leaflet in its entirety, getting it out to an audience of millions who wouldn't otherwise have seen it (Nov 1994). Few journalists are interested in liberal demonstrators, the reactionary voices (by contrast with @ists) I meant above. It's by no means a given or an end that much publicity will be given to anarchists but any that is will make some people think and alert others to the existence of groups they were previously unaware of.


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## FridgeMagnet (May 1, 2018)

Sometimes I'm baffled at what some people on here think protests are for and can actually do. Of course this isn't going to "kick off" and it's definitely not going to be another Poll Tax Riot - even the Poll Tax Riots weren't the Poll Tax Riots of imagination. Doesn't this go without saying? It's going to be a shitload of people from a very broad base (everyone hates Trump - even the Tory side of my family think he's a twat) taking over central London waving signs with assorted euphemisms and straight swearing. Effigies and comedy slogans will be in abundance. It won't affect his policy in the US. It might contribute a bit to any decision May might make about co-operating with him, maybe. It will make people in the US who hate him feel a bit better, more generally supported, though it may get portrayed over there as anti-Americanism.

It will give the people involved a sense that it is possible to really alter day-to-day reality through mass action. If there are the same numbers that were at, say, the march after his inauguration - and I'd expect more - they'll literally fill all the streets in the area and transform the environment. People will feel like they've been able to express their opinions about something awful in the world in some way and be part of something larger.

I don't think that it's bad not to go (I won't be going to wave a sweary placard myself, I'll be going to see what happens and to take photos) but really, there are plenty of really valid reasons that people might want to, just like for any other demo.


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## LDC (May 1, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It will give the people involved a sense that it is possible to really alter day-to-day reality through mass action. If there are the same numbers that were at, say, the march after his inauguration - and I'd expect more - they'll literally fill all the streets in the area and transform the environment. People will feel like they've been able to express their opinions about something awful in the world in some way and be part of something larger.



How did that work out after the massive anti-Iraq war demos? If anything the massive demos and numbers of people led partly to a collapse in any sense of optimism or belief that demos and numbers change anything.


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## ska invita (May 1, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It will give the people involved a sense that it is possible to really alter day-to-day reality through mass action.


... You've just made a good case that it won't affect day to day reality though...


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## FridgeMagnet (May 1, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> How did that work out after the massive anti-Iraq war demos? If anything the massive demos and numbers of people led partly to a collapse in any sense of optimism or belief that demos and numbers change anything.





ska invita said:


> ... You've just made a good case that it won't affect day to day reality though...


Day to day reality in the sense of just changing the environment from a series of streets with cars and that to a roaming protest area. Don't knock that.


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## Rimbaud (May 7, 2018)

Trump's visit coincides with the Durham Miners Gala which is going to be a big anti-Trump demo this year. Corbyn is speaking. Gonna be a big turnout this year I reckon, I've managed to convince a few apolitical friends to come.

It also coincides with the 12th in Northern Ireland, the bonfires and orange parades. Most tense time of year in the best of times, if the Republican left are hosting anti-Trump stuff at the same time as the orange parades there could be some mayhem.

It has potential to be a bit of a crazy weekend all over the country. I heard he is visiting Scotland, so there will probably be some attempt at direct action there.

So there are likely to be big left wing gatherings in London, North East, Scotland, Northern Ireland bringing in a lot of people who wouldn't usually get involved. Trump's visit has potential to be the political awakening for a great number of people, and this could easily snowball into other grievances.

The student protests in 2010-2011 were major causes of the summer rioting. I remember first one I went to where we smashed up Millbank was mainly students. The ones after that had local working class kids, often joining because of the EMA cuts and because the Millbank action had attracted their attention, turning up getting a taste for aggro with the police. Getting this taste for it was a big factor in things kicking off that summer I think.

Now I don't think that those riots were at all productive or positive, but it is an example of how major demos can have a politicising or radicalising effect and snowball into issues beyond Trump. I think it is about time we had a hot summer of protest, and Trump's visit could spark that off.

The Trump demos are a great opportunity to get more people politically active, and for new friendships and loyalties to be forged. It could be a really important moment, and dismissing it as liberal sneering is itself an even worse kind of elitist sneering imo.


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## chilango (May 7, 2018)

Rimbaud said:


> ...dismissing it as liberal sneering is itself an even worse kind of elitist sneering imo.



Dismissing what? 

There's a range of disperate things going on here. 

The only part I'm "dismissing as liberal sneering" is the "stupid Americans thinking they'll get their jobs back" type refrain I hear all too often when Trump is discussed. 

The rest I think is hopelessly optimistic, but I'd be delighted to be wrong on that.


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## ska invita (May 7, 2018)

Just as an aside, I've never heard anyone make any kind of link between the milbank+ student demos and the mark duggan riots before. You might be right... It's impossible to say for certain. To me it seemed spontaneous with the touch paper lit in Tottenham outside the police station. I agree with your general point though about one action possibly triggering others. Wether this has the capacity is... Up in the air (doubtful I think)


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## Magnus McGinty (May 7, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I’m not going to be so dismissive in advance of the nature of the demo or of the people who attend it, but in any event, it doesn’t matter to me. What matters is large numbers of people turning out to make it loud and clear that fascistic demagogues aren’t welcome in the UK.



Well here’s one visiting this month. What you got planned for that event?

Turkish president Erdogan to visit Britain in May


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## redsquirrel (May 7, 2018)

Rimbaud said:


> So there are likely to be big left wing gatherings in London, North East, Scotland, Northern Ireland bringing in a lot of people who wouldn't usually get involved. Trump's visit has potential to be the political awakening for a great number of people, and this could easily snowball into other grievances.


Are the Trump protests going to be a left wing gathering? What makes you think so? 

The reason why they are going to be so large is precisely because they are going to attract people from all over the political spectrum. I'm not going to dismiss then as "liberal sneering" but I think it's pretty naive to recognise that liberal voices are going to be protesting Trump, and in all likelihood, probably get more of an airing than "left" voices. 

Again that's not to say that people shouldn't protest, but lets not pretend that such protests will be something they are not. 


Also the Miner's Gala is exactly what I was talking about with a day at the fair. I've been more than once and it's a nice event but it's more about catching up with old mates than a political meeting.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 7, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> Also the Miner's Gala is exactly what I was talking about with a day at the fair. I've been more than once and it's a nice event but it's more about catching up with old mates than a political meeting.



Plus there actually is a fair there.


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## Jeff Robinson (May 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well here’s one visiting this month. What you got planned for that event?
> 
> Turkish president Erdogan to visit Britain in May



Nothing personally, but I hope others do protest against him.


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## krink (May 10, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Plus there actually is a fair there.



don't remind me, costs me a fortune now the kids come with me 

(be ok if i could get some of the free vouchers the num give out to their kids, where's the black hand when you need him? lol)


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## AnnO'Neemus (May 10, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> But why does it matter if he cares? For sure he'd rather have crowds welcoming him, but whether he cares or not is a shit reason for doing it or not isn't it?


I remember George Osborne's face was a picture when he got booed at the Paralympics. I think many politicians live such a detached lives that it's sometimes good for them and their egos to be given a dose of reality.


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## ska invita (May 21, 2018)

ska invita said:


> What will be discussed with the government when Trump comes? I expect post-Brexit trade deals....


Trump threatens to use US trade talks to force NHS to pay more for drugs
Donald Trump is poised to force the NHS into paying billions more for drugs


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