# Feeling safe in Brixton: better or worse?



## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm seeing and hearing of a lot more muggings and attacks around Brixton recently and am suspecting that the streets are getting more dangerous than, say, a year or two ago.

What's your opinion?

(Please note: this isn't a thread about style bars, yuppies or gentrification. It's a poll to find out whether people feel more or less safer on the streets of Brixton.)


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## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2005)

much the same.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

Just posted this on the other thread:

*Sadly, I have also noticed a decline recently too. It got better in late 2003 - mid 2004, but things have gradually started to slide again. I hope it doesn't return to 1999 - mid 2003 levels.

Muggers do indeed tend to mug those who seem more vulnerable. A few years ago I saw some fucker strut over to a homeless old sitting on the floor and "ask" her for £1.*


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

I think it's gradually started to get worse again.  There's a few times I've been diving back into the pub when some local youth are passing and eyeing up my phone    

Nice weather doesn't help.  The muggers seem to enjoy the nice weather


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## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Nice weather doesn't help.  The muggers seem to enjoy the nice weather


Brixton can turn quite unpleasant on a summer's night - especially when the school holidays are on.

I could be wrong, but I predict a gnarly summer season ahead.


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## DrRingDing (Apr 29, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I could be wrong, but I predict a gnarly summer season ahead.




Smashing, just as we maybe moving there.

*Reconsiders poncey plastic Richmond*


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)




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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Brixton can turn quite unpleasant on a summer's night - especially when the school holidays are on.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I predict a gnarly summer season ahead.




especially if we get another heatwave.  That seems to get everyone especially irritated when they're hot and bothered (except the sunlovers)


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## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

>


What's that got to do with anything?


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## Orang Utan (Apr 29, 2005)

The only thing I've noticed is that I tend to get a lot more 'oi ginger' calls from across the street from who I presume to be dealers or people who are that kind of beggar/mugger hybrid - ie they try to intimidate you into giving them some cash. I ignore them if they're on the other side of the street or politely but firmly say no if I have direct contact with them. Only recently have they made me feel slightly wary of them.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

DoUsAFavour said:
			
		

> Smashing, just as we maybe moving there.
> 
> *Reconsiders poncey plastic Richmond*



Don't be a wimp.      I know someone who lived in Brixton all his life and never got mugged - until he was aged 64 and outside Brixton Tube at 7.30am.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> The only thing I've noticed is that I tend to get a lot more 'oi ginger' calls from across the street from who I presume to be dealers or people who are that kind of beggar/mugger hybrid - ie they try to intimidate you into giving them some cash. I ignore them if they're on the other side of the street or politely but firmly say no if I have direct contact with them. Only recently have they made me feel slightly wary of them.




that's gingerist that is     Report them for gingerism


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)




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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 29, 2005)

I think it's about the same - things seem to have fluctuated a bit over the past few years - sometimes worse, sometimes better. 

It's a known fact that acquisitive crime rises in the summer, especially when the economy is buoyant.


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## LDR (Apr 29, 2005)

I can't say I've noticed any difference whatsover.  I've not had any real hassle in Brixton ever.


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## hatboy (Apr 29, 2005)

Sorry (name edited out: please* STOP *doing this: editor), but this needs to be said: The subject IS party about things you've asked not to be mentioned.

Yes it's more dangerous, for some. It is more divided:

Decreased social mobility - nationally

Massive inequality - nationally and locally

Market forces and Lambeth council clearing out alot of mid-range people from Brixton - leaving more either socially housed and poor or owning property/wealthy.

Less acceptance and understanding of diversity from the more genteel and upmarket (despite the projection of liberal/PC attitudes).

Dysfunctional lives/drug problems/addiction

"The gap in life expectancy between rich and poor in this country is now 11 years. More than Victorian times" - announced on the news today.

And it's going to get worse. And the way to help if you're a frightened person is not to be ringing the police and telling them they've got to get rid of certain people. The way to help is to start caring about, understanding and communicating with people you are scared of.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 29, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

>


what the fuck are you on about. Go troll somewhere else.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> what the fuck are you on about. Go troll somewhere else.


Yeah, ern; please either make your point or knock it off.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 29, 2005)

I can't say I felt it was any more dangerous when I came back than before I left for the States.

Edit: nor less dangerous, mind.


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## rennie (Apr 29, 2005)

I cannot say I've noticed much difference... we've had a few youths say some nasty/silly stuff to us walking around, and my bag's been nicked from a pub but it's been alright so far.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

reNnIe said:
			
		

> we've had a few youths say some nasty/silly stuff to us walking around, and my bag's been nicked from a pub but it's been alright so far.


IMHO, that's not alright. At all. That's far more crap than anyone should have to telerate. Anywhere.


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## Pie 1 (Apr 29, 2005)

Aside from an increase in the whistling from the shadows, I can't say I've noticed it to be better or worse than it ever was.

PS: Fuck off will you ern, you tedious & predictable little prick.


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## kyser_soze (Apr 29, 2005)

Bout the same, altho a lot of the dealers seem to be getting more aggressive in their sales pitch, esp on weekend nights


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## rennie (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> IMHO, that's not alright. At all. That's far more crap than anyone should have to telerate. Anywhere.




i completely disregard peeps shouting around me/saying this or that... it's irrelevant to me... and as for my bag, well, ive been in London for 5 years n judging by my mates' experiences... it was bound to happen. Shite but real.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

reNnIe said:
			
		

> i completely disregard peeps shouting around me/saying this or that... it's irrelevant to me... and as for my bag, well, ive been in London for 5 years n judging by my mates' experiences... it was bound to happen. Shite but real.


You shouldn't _have_ to put up with/ignore/expect people who think they've got a "right" to hurl insults at you in the street _for no reason whatsoever_. Ditto bag-snatching. These things are wrong.


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## rennie (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> You shouldn't _have_ to put up with/ignore/expect people who think they've got a "right" to hurl insults at you in the street _for no reason whatsoever_. Ditto bag-snatching. These things are wrong.



in an ideal world, yes.


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## hatboy (Apr 29, 2005)

It isn't for "no reason".  It is misdirected.

(By which I mean it is an expression of deeper problems and divisions that end up directed at an indivdual).


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## Orang Utan (Apr 29, 2005)

Hafuckingha


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> It isn't for "no reason".  It is misdirected.


Misdirected in what sense?

If you're just walking along the street and some berk decides to start yelling insults at you - when you have not done or said _anything_ to harm them... what's the point?


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## LDR (Apr 29, 2005)

Actually, thinking about it, I walk with Missuz Scott from the Dogstar to the tube if I'm staying on at Offline and she's off home.  

This due to the last time she walked to the tube on her own, she had some guy follow her and keep asking her for a kisses, etc.  Missuz Scott is pretty assertive when it comes to this kind of thing and told him to fuck off which only seemed to make him more keen.   

However, this kind of behaviour isn't limited to Brixton.  Missuz Scott gets it all over the place.


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## Orang Utan (Apr 29, 2005)

Maybe because they're short-sighted and they meant to intimidate someone else without good reason (as if they're as ever a good reason).


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> It isn't for "no reason".  It is misdirected.



If some homosexual or black was taunted while walking down Sutton High Street - is that misdirected?


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## IntoStella (Apr 29, 2005)

I think it's about the same.
Things went REALLY shit in about200/01. Then they got better and have been more or less the same ever since with seasonal fluctuations, as BH said.

It depends what makes you feel unsafe. If you get upset by people shouting things at you then it's not an ideal place to live as it happens to most people most of the time. 

I still think it's interesting that there are areas of the country where there is a lot of severe mindless violence -- crimes against the person -- between white people but it is not seen as being a problem, whereas crimes against personal property committed by ethnic minorities are made a big fuss about. 

Personally I'd rather somebody nicked my phone for a reason -  for the money - than beat me to a pulp for a mindless sadistic thrill.

I realise that in the case of the Editor's friend there was both violence and robbery and it does sound like a horrible incident. I sincerely hope this is not going to turn out to be a trend.


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## marty21 (Apr 29, 2005)

i go to brixton occasionally, and haven't felt particularly threatened on these visits, it's pretty similar to hackney i guess, and i don't feel threatened there either


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## gaijingirl (Apr 29, 2005)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> The only thing I've noticed is that I tend to get a lot more 'oi ginger' calls from across the street from who I presume to be dealers or people who are that kind of beggar/mugger hybrid.



 Nah that's me... sorry I'll stop doing it.. didn't realise it was an urbanite i was hassling...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Personally I'd rather somebody nicked my phone for a reason -  for the money - than beat me to a pulp for a mindless sadistic thrill.




To buy the latest trainers/or whatever else is "in" at the moment?


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> I still think it's interesting that there are areas of the country where there is a lot of severe mindless violence -- crimes against the person -- between white people but it is not seen as being a problem, whereas crimes against personal property committed by ethnic minorities are made a big fuss about.
> 
> Personally I'd rather somebody nicked my phone for a reason -  for the money - than beat me to a pulp for a mindless sadistic thrill.


I don't think anyone is putting any sort of ethnic bias into this issue, really. Yobbish behaviour of any sort is a pain in the arse. I'd rather not be assaulted by anyone - whether for the sake of motiveless violence or for the purpose of robbery.


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## kyser_soze (Apr 29, 2005)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> To buy the latest trainers/or whatever else is "in" at the moment?



Nah - of the three times I've been attacked in London only once was anything taken off me, the other two times it was just random violence. Once in Knightsbridge, once just off Upper St by the Church...

I know what IS means - even if it's for trainers there's a reason beyond simple enjoyment of violence.


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## Belushi (Apr 29, 2005)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> The only thing I've noticed is that I tend to get a lot more 'oi ginger' calls from across the street from who I presume to be dealers or people who are that kind of beggar/mugger hybrid - ie they try to intimidate you into giving them some cash. I ignore them if they're on the other side of the street or politely but firmly say no if I have direct contact with them. Only recently have they made me feel slightly wary of them.



They call me 'Biggie'   

I aint noticed it being any worse than its always been, but then I dont visit Brixton that often.


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## dynamicbaddog (Apr 29, 2005)

I only go to Brixton occasionally, have'nt had too much grief there -  once had someone shouting after me as I went from to the cashpoint to the Dogstar I started stepping up my pace and as I got to the safety the pub where there were other people about he left me alone. A friend of mine was waiting for a bus there last October and some kids came up to her poured petrol on her and set her on fire  . Luckily people in a nearby cab office saw what was happening came running  to her aid and there was no permanent damage done!


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## Belushi (Apr 29, 2005)

> A friend of mine was waiting for a bus there last October and some kids came up to her poured petrol on her and set her on fire


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## IntoStella (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone is putting any sort of ethnic bias into this issue, really. Yobbish behaviour of any sort is a pain in the arse. I'd rather not be assaulted by anyone - whether for the sake of motiveless violence or for the purpose of robbery.


 Of course not, but I think people's general sense of safety (or lack of) is affected by prevailing, media-driven opinion. I'm simply saying I personally feel safer in Brixton than I would in some hick town where people get their head kicked in for being different. Like Croydon.


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## kyser_soze (Apr 29, 2005)

Suburban and large towns in county areas carry more fear than anywhere in London AFAIC, especially the threat of random violence...


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## Mr Retro (Apr 29, 2005)

About the same for me too. I've never felt unsafe in Brixton in the 5 years I've been here but I'm pretty big so have never tended to be hassled anywhere <hope not tempting fate>. 

The description of the mugging at the cashpoint has scared the shit out of me because of my wife.


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## gaijingirl (Apr 29, 2005)

I haven't noticed any fluctuations in Brixton over the last 5 years.. but I tend to travel around a lot on my bicycle so maybe I miss it all?  I've also never felt threatened in Brixton.  Just my personal experience like... I'm shocked that no one helped the guy who was mugged outside Barclays... on the occasions when I have noticed stuff going on in Brixton I've ALWAYS seen someone come to the rescue.

I remember one guy who tried to snatch someone's purse in the market being sat on top of by a number of hefty lady shoppers whilst the stall holders gave him what for!!!

On the bus the other day a clearly not all there woman (who had just been ejected from Woolworths) started trying to hit the girl sitting next to her and everyone got involved!!!  She got off the bus in the end!!


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## IntoStella (Apr 29, 2005)

dynamicbaddog said:
			
		

> A friend of mine was waiting for a bus there last October and some kids came up to her poured petrol on her and set her on fire  . Luckily people in a nearby cab office saw what was happening came running  to her aid and there was no permanent damage done!


If you mean the P5 stop by the opticians in CHL, I live just around the corner and I'm very surprised I didn't hear anything about this. News usually travels fast. The nearest cab office is quite a long way away. Are you sure you've got the right bus stop? It wasn't the one up near the old Home James cab office in Loughborough Junction, was it?


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Of course not, but I think people's general sense of safety (or lack of) is affected by prevailing, media-driven opinion. I'm simply saying I personally feel safer in Brixton than I would in some hick town where people get their head kicked in for being different. Like Croydon.



Croydon's got more black teenagers than Brixton - you should get out more!

Saying that - a student of mine is in intensive care after being stabbed and hammered in Croydon last week.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

dynamicbaddog said:
			
		

> A friend of mine was waiting for a bus there last October and some kids came up to her poured petrol on her and set her on fire


  Did they ever catch those little shits?


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## Loki (Apr 29, 2005)

From personal experience and that of my mates, no difference really. The last time any of my friends had an uncomfortable (well actually rather scary) experience was about two years ago.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> I remember one guy who tried to snatch someone's purse in the market being sat on top of by a number of hefty lady shoppers whilst the stall holders gave him what for!!!




Brilliant.  Would love to have seen that.


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## dynamicbaddog (Apr 29, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> If you mean the P5 stop by the opticians in CHL, I live just around the corner and I'm very surprised I didn't hear anything about this. News usually travels fast. The nearest cab office is quite a long way away. Are you sure you've got the right bus stop? It wasn't the one up near the old Home James cab office in Loughborough Junction, was it?



Not really sure what bus stop she was on the main road bit of Brixton (i think somewhere near the academy - but can't say for sure,) heading towards Crystal Palace, the police said the stop she was at was one of the few in the area that has'nt got a cctv camera on it.


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## rennie (Apr 29, 2005)

a few months ago, i got ou of the tube n walked up to the bus stop... some guy ran out of woolworths with a policeman not far behind... crossed the street (jumping over the barrier) n then disappeared into the pound shop... No ONE  intervened or tried to make his escape any harder. The police soon shut the shop n cordoned off the area... dunno if the guy was caught/arrested/charged.


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## kyser_soze (Apr 29, 2005)

dynamicbaddog said:
			
		

> Not really sure what bus stop she was on the main road bit of Brixton (i think somewhere near the academy - but can't say for sure,) heading towards Crystal Palace, the police said the stop she was at was one of the few in the area that has'nt got a cctv camera on it.



That'd be the No 2 stop - was it on the main high street or the end by the police station? I only ask cos the stop on the route in from Brixton road was where I was very gently and very scarily mugged without a hand being raised or weapon being pulled - demanding money with menaces I believe is the technical term.


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## dynamicbaddog (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Did they ever catch those little shits?


no   police went to her house and spoke to her then nothing much else was heard about it


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## rennie (Apr 29, 2005)

some of you might remember me posting about this two years ago... in my old flat off Brixton Hill, my flatmate (a girl) woke up one night to find someone in her bedroom... she screamed as loud as she could n the intruder jumped off the window n promtply left (making a big bang n probably injuring him/her self in the process). I obviously woke up n we called the police who said they'll come soon... They never showed up!They called back n said "Sorry, we're very busy" ... doing what?   

They did turn up a week or so later n get fingerprints.


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## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> The subject IS party about things you've asked not to be mentioned.


Yes, but this particular thread isn't about that, as I made clear.

I'm trying to find out if people feel safer or less safer on the streets of Brixton. 

If people wish to discuss gentrification for the zillioneth time, they're welcome to  start yet another thread on the topic.


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## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> http://www.columbia.edu/itc/tc/cstudies/archive_is/do_the_right_thing_2_24.jpg


One more off topic, dodgy trolling post and you're on a 24 hour ban, chum.

Go play your childish games elsewhere.


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## christonabike (Apr 29, 2005)

I feel as safe as I ever did

I guess you get used to the place and have an eye for potential trouble

Best wishes to your pal, Editor


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 29, 2005)

wot christonabike said really...edited to add...although summertime is usually lairier than wintertime.


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## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Misdirected in what sense?
> 
> If you're just walking along the street and some berk decides to start yelling insults at you - when you have not done or said _anything_ to harm them... what's the point?



What Hatboy says is true.  People do not do things for "no reason".  People might do stupid, hurtful horrible things, but these are usually an expression of anger and hurt, at themselves, other people, the world in general.


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## Belushi (Apr 29, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> What Hatboy says is true.  People do not do things for "no reason".  People might do stupid, hurtful horrible things, but these are usually an expression of anger and hurt, at themselves, other people, the world in general.



When I was a teen me and my mates would shout abuse at people in the street, humiliate them, start on them   

We didnt do it because we were angry or hurt, we did it because it was fun, we liked the sense of power, and because we knew we could get away with it.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> When I was a teen me and my mates would shout abuse at people in the street, humiliate them, start on them
> 
> We didnt do it because we were angry or hurt, we did it because it was fun, we liked the sense of power, and because we knew we could get away with it.



Very true. Thankfully most people grow out of it.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Very true. Thankfully most people grow out of it.


I get the feeling that there is a generation of people, nowadays, that aren't growing out of it. A lot of these assaults seem to have a moronically childish quality to them. A total lack of belief of any consequences is often apparent.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> I get the feeling that there is a generation of people, nowadays, that aren't growing out of it. A lot of these assaults seem to have a moronically childish quality to them. A total lack of belief of any consequences is often apparent.



I blame the teachers.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

ern...


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)

Yeah soz. 

I dunno, what do you want me to say, 'Bring Back National Service'?


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## Ms T (Apr 29, 2005)

I agree with IS -- there was a very bad period a few years ago when street muggings went into outer orbit and the aggressive begging round the tube was very bad -- but things seem to have gone back to normal now.

There is always a certain amount of "attitude" in Brixton -- usually from young people who are compensating for their lack of social status and other disadvantages.  I try to deal with this by being as polite and pleasant as I can.  Even the hardest of the hard are usually disarmed by a non-agressive attitude.    

What happened to your friend, ed?  I think I might have missed something...


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## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> we liked the sense of power



This is the important bit I believe.  There is always a reason for these things, a feeling of power is one of them.  People often feel powerless in our society, maybe shouting at people is a misguided way of trying to address that.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 29, 2005)

Ms T said:
			
		

> What happened to your friend, ed?  I think I might have missed something...


http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=113439


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> wot christonabike said really...edited to add...although summertime is usually lairier than wintertime.




and school holidays, which is maybe why I've noticed a difference, Easter Holidays etc.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> This is the important bit I believe.  There is always a reason for these things, a feeling of power is one of them.  People often feel powerless in our society, maybe shouting at people is a misguided way of trying to address that.



I don't think you get what he means.


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## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I don't think you get what he means.



I don't think you get what I mean, which is no surprise.  You're hardly the most reflective of posters.


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## poster342002 (Apr 29, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> This is the important bit I believe.  There is always a reason for these things, a feeling of power is one of them.  People often feel powerless in our society, maybe shouting at people is a misguided way of trying to address that.


It's a very cowardly way, though. I mean, rather than shouting at the powerful, shouting at those they percieve even *less* powrful and more vulnerable than themselves? Pathetic.


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## eme (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> A total lack of belief of any consequences is often apparent.



more to the point I reckon....   

I think brixtons feels about the same anyhow.....  no more no less....


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## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> It's a very cowardly way, though. I mean, rather than shouting at the powerful, shouting at those they percieve even *less* powrful and more vulnerable than themselves? Pathetic.



Yes it is cowardly.  But messed up people are just that - messed up.


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## ernestolynch (Apr 29, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Yes it is cowardly.  But messed up people are just that - messed up.



You calling belushi messed up?


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## Belushi (Apr 29, 2005)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> This is the important bit I believe.  There is always a reason for these things, a feeling of power is one of them.  People often feel powerless in our society, maybe shouting at people is a misguided way of trying to address that.



Or maybe its a fun way to spend an evening if your an empathy free teen, secure in the knowledge that everyone is to scared to tackle you about it.


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## hiccup (Apr 29, 2005)

I don't live in Brixton, but have spent a lot of time there, for work and pleasure, over the last 10 years, and I can't say it feels any more threatening than it ever has. I've stumbled round the place at all hours in all sorts of states and never had any problems (bar once being ripped off by a taxi tout. That was my own stupid fault though).


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## aurora green (Apr 29, 2005)

I cant say I've noticed things turning for the worse, but I guess I'm not really about much in the evenings or late afternoon, which is when stuff happens.
I was thinking only the other day that things on my estate have been pretty quiet, I don't want to tempt fate, but I haven't seen a yellow police sign up for ages.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 29, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> I don't want to tempt fate, but I haven't seen a yellow police sign up for ages.




Very true.  Would agree with you there.  Maybe they've been nicked?


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## Ms T (Apr 29, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=113439


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## Hollis (Apr 29, 2005)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> It's a very cowardly way, though. I mean, rather than shouting at the powerful, shouting at those they percieve even *less* powrful and more vulnerable than themselves? Pathetic.




Yeah - but goes on all the time don't it.. Why d'you think so many people drive badly, or get all aggressive about petty things.. its endemic.


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## rennie (Apr 29, 2005)

Not in London but a horrific attack nonetheless. teenagers kill shopkeeper in frienzied attack


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## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You calling belushi messed up?



Do you ever post anything remotely sensible?


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## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> I was thinking only the other day that things on my estate have been pretty quiet, I don't want to tempt fate, but I haven't seen a yellow police sign up for ages.


There was one right outside the tube station recently. It wasn't as _stylish_ as my sign, though.


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## jbob (Apr 29, 2005)

> Or maybe its a fun way to spend an evening if your an empathy free teen, secure in the knowledge that everyone is to scared to tackle you about it.



Too right. A lot of kids who spend there youth out of the parental home, after school are simply bored and pissing about. I used to do it, I don't believe it was any deep cry of inner torment. It was for fun. Not nice, but then teenage boys aren' t generally the nicest.


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## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Or maybe its a fun way to spend an evening if your an empathy free teen, secure in the knowledge that everyone is to scared to tackle you about it.



But why think its fun?  There are deeper reasons that "fun"


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## jbob (Apr 29, 2005)

There's showing off to your mates, testing your boundaries, and just the plain enjoyment of being a cruel little shit.


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## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

jbob said:
			
		

> There's showing off to your mates, testing your boundaries, and just the plain enjoyment of being a cruel little shit.



But _why_?  And why do so many adults not have any empathy or understanding?  Look into it a bit more.  People often behave in anti-social or destructive ways without neccesarily being aware of the deeper underlying reasons.  Teenage lads are often testing boundaries, sorting out pecking order, showing off etc, but surely as a society we could be channelling this in a more productive and fulfilling way?


----------



## jbob (Apr 29, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Blagsta
> 
> But why? And why do so many adults not have any empathy or understanding? Look into it a bit more. People often behave in anti-social or destructive ways without neccesarily being aware of the deeper underlying reasons. Teenage lads are often testing boundaries, sorting out pecking order, showing off etc, but surely as a society we could be channelling this in a more productive and fulfilling way?



I see what you're getting at, Blagsta. Is it not just the simple fact that kids behave in such ways because they can get away with it? I'm not sure that that this unifying idea of 'deep underlying problems' as it seems very much like some kind of post-modern excuse that ignores any kind of self-determinism on the part of the kids themselves. It completely absolves any sort of responsibility for their actions, which I actually find a little condescending. When I shouted at older people on buses or when they were on the other side of the road, I was fully aware of what I was doing and why I was doing it - for a laugh. And, when I got older and learnt it wasn't a laugh, I stopped doing it.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

jbob said:
			
		

> Is it not just the simple fact that kids behave in such ways because they can get away with it?



No.  Whats post modernism got to do with it btw?   And its not about absolving of responsibilty, stop being so simple minded.


----------



## jbob (Apr 29, 2005)

Will do when you stop being so patronising. Let's leave it.

I think I feel about as safe as I ever have in Brixton, although its been a couple of months since I was last there.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

So how am I being patronising?  By attempting to actually think about these things?  How is that patronsing?


----------



## meems (Apr 29, 2005)

**nosos**

It was probably the “stop being so simple minded” line which seemed patronising. You seem really desperate to reduce all anti-social behaviour into your own analysis of society: yes, as a society we could be channelling this in a more productive and fulfilling way but that doesn’t that people themselves choose how to act.



> So how am I being patronising? By attempting to actually think about these things? How is that patronsing?


Got it in one, matey. I really hope you were trying to wind him/her up with this sentence. Do you really think that you're the only attempting to "actually think about these things"? Everyone else's view is just knee-jerk reactionaryism? For fucks sake.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm well aware that people ultimately choose to behave in certain ways, but its not quite that simple.  Some people don't have the inner resources to take personal responsibility, some people don't see why they should.  I see it all the time in my work.  I don't think that trying to understand these things is a bad thing, but there seems to be a knee jerk response from some people that its patronising or condoning this behaviour to attempt to understand it.   Oh well, guess I should have known better than to try and have an intelligent discussion on urban.

*shrugs*


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

meems said:
			
		

> I
> 
> Got it in one, matey. I really hope you were trying to wind him/her up with this sentence. Do you really think that you're the only attempting to "actually think about these things"? Everyone else's view is just knee-jerk reactionaryism? For fucks sake.



I think that people who have a simplistic "its all about personal responsibilty" line are being quite reactionary, yes.


----------



## meems (Apr 29, 2005)

**nosos**




			
				Blagsta said:
			
		

> I'm well aware that people ultimately choose to behave in certain ways, but its not quite that simple.  Some people don't have the inner resources to take personal responsibility, some people don't see why they should.  I see it all the time in my work.  I don't think that trying to understand these things is a bad thing, but there seems to be a knee jerk response from some people that its patronising or condoning this behaviour to attempt to understand it.



No of course it’s not a bad thing. The knee jerk response you’ve got on this thread probably isn’t down to people’s reactionaryism – although I can’t speak for anyone other than myself – it’s down to how you’ve presented your case. Continually asking “why?” and then getting uppity when people disagree with the number of levels of recursive abstract nonsense you’re prepared to descend into (“people are like, angry, cos society is angry, man!”  ) makes you come across like a patronising prick. Case in point below:



> Oh well, guess I should have known better than to try and have an intelligent discussion on urban.1


----------



## meems (Apr 29, 2005)

Anyway forget about it man, I was only on this thread cos I'm considering the idea of moving to Brixton next year. I'd be lying if I said it was a hugely attractive prospect.


----------



## dum dum (Apr 29, 2005)

meems said:
			
		

> Anyway forget about it man, I was only on this thread cos I'm considering the idea of moving to Brixton next year. I'd be lying if I said it was a hugely attractive prospect.



Cheer up mate no-ones forcing you are they? Unfortunately you'll find there are muggers everywhere.I've been mugged,my close family have been violently mugged and i have a cousin whos been done for mugging.I can only think some posters on this thread have very different lives to me.Good luck to them but i can't relate to there point of view.


----------



## meems (Apr 29, 2005)

**nos**

Nope I'm being forced at gun point. Woe is me! 

<wipes brow>


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 29, 2005)

I'm surprised somebody voted for "It's becomming very dangerous indeed". Thats an observation totally at odds with my experience of the place.


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> I'm surprised somebody voted for "It's becomming very dangerous indeed". Thats an observation totally at odds with my experience of the place.


Maybe it was the person who had his money stolen and his face smacked in by two cowards in broad daylight yesterday?

If I lived in Somerleyton Road, that would probably be the option I'd select too.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 29, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Maybe it was the person who had his money stolen and his face smacked in by two cowards in broad daylight yesterday?
> 
> If I lived in Somerleyton Road, that would probably be the option I'd select too.



Fair enough. I was more thinking of those who post here and those I know, none of whom I think would pick that option. 

Don't mean to belittle the fuckin rotten experience your friend had but if I was mugged tomorrow I still don't think I'd vote that it's becomming very dangerous indeed. 

When I was in NYC 13 years ago I found myself working for a day on 168th street. That was very dangerous indeed. It makes me feel for the person who is living here that they feel the same way I felt that 1 day.


----------



## editor (Apr 29, 2005)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> Don't mean to belittle the fuckin rotten experience your friend had but if I was mugged tomorrow I still don't think I'd vote that it's becomming very dangerous indeed.


To be honest, I doubt if he's going to suddenly decide that Brixton's a hell hole because of that one incident, but I have to say that Somerleyton Road is _very_ gnarly these days: it's the only street in Brixton I won't walk down at night.

It's 'orrible!


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

meems said:
			
		

> No of course it’s not a bad thing. The knee jerk response you’ve got on this thread probably isn’t down to people’s reactionaryism – although I can’t speak for anyone other than myself – it’s down to how you’ve presented your case. Continually asking “why?” and then getting uppity when people disagree with the number of levels of recursive abstract nonsense you’re prepared to descend into (“people are like, angry, cos society is angry, man!”  ) makes you come across like a patronising prick. Case in point below:



No, I responded in kind to a patronising post from jbob.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 29, 2005)

And no, I never said "people are like, angry, cos society is angry, man!”".  Stop reading into my posts things that aren't there.  You're being as bad as ern.


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 29, 2005)

And as I write 2 communty support officers wander past my window giving a cheerfull wave in.   I live in a little 14 house cul de sac. Get ye're selves down to the fucking KFC lads.


----------



## jbob (Apr 29, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Blagsta
> 
> I'm well aware that people ultimately choose to behave in certain ways, but its not quite that simple. Some people don't have the inner resources to take personal responsibility, some people don't see why they should. I see it all the time in my work. I don't think that trying to understand these things is a bad thing, but there seems to be a knee jerk response from some people that its patronising or condoning this behaviour to attempt to understand it. Oh well, guess I should have known better than to try and have an intelligent discussion on urban.



Well, it was the previous "stop being so simple minded" directive that I took to be patronising. Now that you've explained what you were on about without the hyperbole of trying to crush someone else's point of view and belittle them, I can see your point more clearly, and I don't think too differently from what you've said.

If you took a hypothetical situation whereby the local community (any local community) unified and took steps against this anti-social behaviour and refused to tolerate it, would it still continue? Simplistic and reductive, I know, but I think when you lean too heavily on the 'come from tough background, had a bad upbringing' line, it tends to be rather condescending. It suggests that everyone who's come from such a background is somehow 'naturally' inclined towards anti-social behaviour. Which is hollow and deterministic, and ultimately hopeless in helping those kids. And it wouldn't explain why kids from wealthy backgrounds from stable family situations engage in anti-social behaviour.

Over the years I've seen many good and intelligent debates on Urban, but only when it's not reduced to point scoring, personal abuse and arguing from a conceited position.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

Strange night in Brixton, tonight.

At 10:30 there was a mobile police station parked outside the Albert and there was a load of police around the KFC/Barclays cashpoints (have they been reading this site?).

I went to a party off Effra Rd later on.

Suitably fucked off, angry and riled up after my mate's mugging last night, I decided to not bend to intimidation and thought I'd run the gauntlet of Somerleyton Road - after all, it's the quickest route home, it's my fucking 'hood and I was on the mood to take on any cunt trying to get in my way (naturally, I'd had a beer or two, but I was definitely prepared to go the distance).

So I walk down Somerleyton Road, and there's the usual shuffling shadow suspects shouting shit on the estate side of the road, but I couldn't give a fuck tonight. As I turn right down Clarewood Walk, there's two guys in my way shouting, "yo! yo! yeah! alright?".

One has a hood covering his entire face while the other has a ski mask with just two eye holes. But tonight I'm in a fucked off "fuck you" mood and just barked back: "I'm just fine man" and storm off homeward bound.

They were waaay intimidating. I can't think why anyone would want to be on a street corner at 2:40am with a face mask on, but what the fuck: I rode that one out. If I hadn't been in such an upfront mood, maybe things might have been different. So I walk home. Quickly.

Next thing, I look out of the window and there's a mass of 'yoot on the streets. They try and give some (quite small) dude some stick and he's having none of it.

Next thing, this guy is angrily chasing about 15 peeps down Coldharbour Lane. This fella has_ completely fronted out_ the kids. 

But each time he tries to head off, da yoot are picking up bottles and running after him.

I ring up the old bill. They arrive within 60 seconds. Tha yoot disperse. 

I'm reminded of my ten minutes alone in similar circumstances...

....never a dull moment in Brixton, eh?


----------



## pinkmonkey (Apr 30, 2005)

I really feel intimidated when I walk down Coldharbour Lane.  I used to live in North Clapham (Brixton end) off the Landor Road ten years ago, and I got pretty much used to it.  I was never mugged, neither was anyone we lived with, but whenever our friends came to stay, they'd get mugged.  
I found that if you are a known face around the neighbourhood, they'll leave you alone - I even used to get some of the local badboys to walk me home from North Clapham tube when it was late  

I like to compare my experience of Brixton with when I lived in Notting Hill - I was pickpocked three times there and attacked twice.

I live in suburbia now and because I 'm not used to the hassle I do find it really intimidating in Brixton, I've grown unused to it now and I really notice it whenever I go back.  I'm not ashamed to say I find it scary.  If I think about it I'd say its definately more hassly than it was ten years ago, though.

I know I should be nice to these people as build a rapport, but I'm not that keen on building a rapport with a pushy drug pusher at 11 pm, thanks  

I guess I've grown used to a quiet life out in N13.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 30, 2005)

i haven't  noticed much of an increase. perhaps a little in the attitude in some of the people asking for money  and i find that the ones who are like that are genrally people i havn't seen before

as for some of the areas ... well i tend  to be a little more awake if i walk into brixton the back way by the block   at night    but so far all i have expirianced is shouty kids

but then again i have never been mugged in all my years here (well cept by kids as a kid)


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

I can sympathise with you, editor, what a horrible story. No-one should have to go through that kind of shit. I moved from a high crime, high graffiti, high oppression area (where I was worried about my other half being able to walk about at night safely) to London's lowest crime borough - no hoodied thugs, just goths and chavs. 

I know lots of other people at work who have done the same move - life's too short to be looking over your shoulder when you want to nip to the 24-hr garage.

And blagsta - you were very patronising, as everyone's noted.


----------



## aurora green (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> ....I moved from a high crime, high graffiti, high oppression area (where I was worried about my other half being able to walk about at night safely) to London's lowest crime borough - no hoodied thugs, just goths and chavs.
> 
> I know lots of other people at work who have done the same move - life's too short to be looking over your shoulder when you want to nip to the 24-hr garage.



Yeah well, lucky you comrade Lynch. Some of us cant just up and leave, and choose to live where life is easier. We have to make the best of it where we are 'cos there are no other options available.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Yeah well, lucky you comrade Lynch. Some of us cant just up and leave, and choose to live where life is easier. We have to make the best of it where we are 'cos there are no other options available.



Rubbish - you live there out of choice because you like the transport links, tube and the nightlife. Why else would you be paying through your nose rent-wise?

No-one's forcing you to live in Brixton, and don't pretend that you're from the wrong side of the tracks and stuck in the situation through poverty. You're slumming it for a few years in a 'vibrant', 'edgy' area because it makes you feel cool and funky!


----------



## fat hamster (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I moved from a high crime, high graffiti, high oppression area (where I was worried about my other half being able to walk about at night safely) to London's lowest crime borough - no hoodied thugs, just goths and chavs.


Let me guess - you didn't achieve that by putting your name on the Council/Housing Association transfer list now, did you.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

fat hamster said:
			
		

> Let me guess - you didn't achieve that by putting your name on the Council/Housing Association transfer list now, did you.



No - because I've been working in a very stressful but well-remunerated job for the last 7 years, and living in a poxy flat with no garden on a main road, and moved on last summer.


----------



## aurora green (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Rubbish - you live there out of choice because you like the transport links, tube and the nightlife. Why else would you be paying through your nose rent-wise?
> 
> No-one's forcing you to live in Brixton, and don't pretend that you're from the wrong side of the tracks and stuck in the situation through poverty. You're slumming it for a few years in a 'vibrant', 'edgy' area because it makes you feel cool and funky!



Ha, ha, ha! Jumping to conclutions there mate, and yet you know *nothing*  about me.  

for your info (and files)
I am bringing up three children on my own in a small council flat, up 42 stairs with no lift or balcony.
I've been trying for years for a transfer, but this is virtually impossible because Lambeths transfer scheme has ground to almost a complete halt. It is depressing., debiliitating and frustrating in the extreame dealing with Lambeth.

If I were 'slumming' it, the time for that would be well over.
'Cool and funky' are things that dont concern me because I have real things to worry about.
You are wrong Ernesto, get back to worrying about your mortgage 'cos for some of us, even that is a crazy dream.


----------



## fat hamster (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> No - because I've been working in a very stressful but well-remunerated job for the last 7 years


I think you'll find that option isn't available to single mums such as Aurora Green.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

It's not my fault is it? Where's the Child Support Agency to sue her kids' father?


----------



## aurora green (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> It's not my fault is it? Where's the Child Support Agency to sue her kids' father?



Patronizing git. I am here, you know.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Patronizing git. I am here, you know.



Sorry - I though you had appointed a spokesperson. Can't the CSA take his wages? Why isn't he forking out more dosh?


----------



## aurora green (Apr 30, 2005)

Perhaps he's fucked off, perhaps he's on the dole, perhaps he's a scag head...
take your pick ern.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Perhaps he's fucked off, perhaps he's on the dole, perhaps he's a scag head...
> take your pick ern.



Perhaps? Don't you know? Sue his arse! Sue his family's arses!


----------



## aurora green (Apr 30, 2005)

Anyway this thread is about Brixton, and my point was that I was suprised at you coming out with sometyhing like, just move out of the area, because some of us cant.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Anyway this thread is about Brixton, and my point was that I was suprised at you coming out with sometyhing like, just move out of the area, because some of us cant.



Point taken - I agree that some people like yourself are pretty much in limbo. But do you agree there are a lot of temporary slummers as well? Anyway, back on topic - would you want more coppers on the street, arresting these vermin?

I think the coppers are too scared to do anything in Brixton in case they get called 'rascists'.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> No-one's forcing you to live in Brixton, and don't pretend that you're from the wrong side of the tracks and stuck in the situation through poverty. You're slumming it for a few years in a 'vibrant', 'edgy' area because it makes you feel cool and funky!


I didn't move here because it was 'edgy' or 'vibrant'. I moved here because it was cheap.

I doubt if I could afford to live anywhere else in London and still be able to keep the site going.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 30, 2005)

jbob said:
			
		

> Well, it was the previous "stop being so simple minded" directive that I took to be patronising. Now that you've explained what you were on about without the hyperbole of trying to crush someone else's point of view and belittle them, I can see your point more clearly, and I don't think too differently from what you've said.
> 
> If you took a hypothetical situation whereby the local community (any local community) unified and took steps against this anti-social behaviour and refused to tolerate it, would it still continue? Simplistic and reductive, I know, but I think when you lean too heavily on the 'come from tough background, had a bad upbringing' line, it tends to be rather condescending. It suggests that everyone who's come from such a background is somehow 'naturally' inclined towards anti-social behaviour. Which is hollow and deterministic, and ultimately hopeless in helping those kids. And it wouldn't explain why kids from wealthy backgrounds from stable family situations engage in anti-social behaviour.
> 
> Over the years I've seen many good and intelligent debates on Urban, but only when it's not reduced to point scoring, personal abuse and arguing from a conceited position.




I simply responded in kind to your rather condescending post about post modernism (?) and absolving responsibility.  I have never suggested that there is anything deterministic about it at all.  I do think however that the line that people just need to take responsibility for themselves to rather toe the Thatcherite lie of there being "no such thing as society".  People are influenced by what is around them.  If they are brought up in a society that values material goods over people that its no wonder that some people act like arseholes.  People can and do change however and take responsibility, I see it in my job all the time - people have to be given the chance to do so however.  I'm not absolving anyone of personal responsibility, merely pointing out that people aren't as simple as some seem to think.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> garage.
> 
> And blagsta - you were very patronising, as everyone's noted.



"everyone" has noted have they?  Really?  Not exagerrating for effect are you?


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Rubbish - you live there out of choice because you like the transport links, tube and the nightlife. Why else would you be paying through your nose rent-wise?
> 
> No-one's forcing you to live in Brixton, and don't pretend that you're from the wrong side of the tracks and stuck in the situation through poverty. You're slumming it for a few years in a 'vibrant', 'edgy' area because it makes you feel cool and funky!



What was that about being patronsing?  Fucking hypocrite.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 30, 2005)

jbob said:
			
		

> And it wouldn't explain why kids from wealthy backgrounds from stable family situations engage in anti-social behaviour.



P.S.
I never mentioned wealth or family background.  Stop reading into my posts things that aren't there.  Wealthy people from stable families can be angry and unhappy too y'know.


----------



## clandestino (Apr 30, 2005)

it's ironic that crime seems to have increased since the introduction of the "DANGER! WATCH OUT FOR YOUR WALLET! THIS IS BRIXTON YOU KNOW!" signs. the only contribution i can see they make is to increase tension in the area. the last thing we need.

just out of interest, is there a good reason why a squad of plain clothes cops don't go and nick every vocal dealer? and nick them again the next day? and the day after that? i know they're concentrating on more organised operations/crack houses, etc, but surely street dealing contributes to the atmosphere of the area. if people can see that dealers are getting away with it in central brixton, doesn't that give the impression that you could get away with a whole lot more - mugging included.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

ianw said:
			
		

> just out of interest, is there a good reason why a squad of plain clothes cops don't go and nick every vocal dealer? and nick them again the next day? and the day after that?



There'd be a riot by dusk. I suppose asking some of the plod on here would be a start though. agricola?


----------



## detective-boy (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> I dunno, what do you want me to say ...



You could try "This'll be my last post, 'cos I'm about to go and top myself"


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> You could try "This'll be my last post, 'cos I'm about to go and top myself"



I'd fucking take you down with me, nobjob.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

Cut it out, you two.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

Editor - what are your views - should the cops do a big zero-tolerance campaign ranging from nicking litter-louts and shiftless sorts up to banging up the drug dealers? What would the possible consequences of such an action?


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Editor - what are your views - should the cops do a big zero-tolerance campaign ranging from nicking litter-louts and shiftless sorts up to banging up the drug dealers? What would the possible consequences of such an action?


Not sure why my opinion is of such importance here, but as I recall Paddick said that there simply wasn't the resources for a 'zero tolerance' regime in Brixton (he was against the idea anyway).

I'm afraid I haven't got any trendy or _moderne_ ideas about policing, but I'd say a non-aggressive police presence on the street makes a big difference around Coldharbour Lane.

I like the idea of a community police station on Coldharbour Lane and a couple of cops wandering around Somerleyton/Moorlands at night would clear some of the shadowy lurkers off the street.

If there's a visible police presence around, people are less likely to lob litter about, shout abuse at passing strangers, mug, attack etc etc


----------



## phildwyer (Apr 30, 2005)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> When I was in NYC 13 years ago I found myself working for a day on 168th street. That was very dangerous indeed.



No it wasn't.  It felt that way to you because (I'll bet) you're white, and you were the only white person in sight.  That can feel dangerous the first time it happens, but a moment's reflection will reveal that it is simply the product of unconscious racism.  Harlem has never been dangerous in the daytime.  Night-time is another story, although I lived on 121st St at that time, and never had a problem at all.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2005)

Here we go:

1) Someone said:

"I know I should be nice to these people as build a rapport, but I'm not that keen on building a rapport with a pushy drug pusher at 11 pm, thanks"

My genuine experience is I do not see "dealers" that one-sidedly. I make clear I'm not a customer, they aren't then a "dealer" they are just a bloke. We chat, say hi, whatever, if we're busy we move on, if not maybe we get on maybe we don't. Everybody's got to survive.

I can't stand the theme on this site of the nice people versus the nasty people. And I don't give a shit to get into an argument about it, but there is a racial and class subtext in the debates on here about this whether you lot can come out with that or not.

2) Harlem - fine no problem to visit, abit like Peckham, but more friendly.

Now fuck off, all o' ya.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

I think we should all learn from hatboy and his inner-city survival skills.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 30, 2005)

The thing is, dealers have terrible memories and often don't take no for an answer and I often end up getting followed for a bit, which I shouldn't have to put up with.
I do see dealers as people, but when they are an annoyance, they can fuck right off. I don't care about their poverty stricken backgrounds, I just want the cunts out of my face.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2005)

I'm not gonna get in a row with you Ernesto. Maybe some of it is "survival skills" - but mostly I just get on with people.

I have been in S London nearly 20 years, I'm just myself. I like people.

By the way Ernie, you'll hate this, but I found out recently my mum and dad are both from ordinary South London backgrounds originally anyway (even tho I grew up in Kent). Maybe I'm supposed to be here.

Oh and EDITOR (name changed by editor), you're a dickhead to talk about what happens to you on here and where you live.  If you start getting a reputation as "that bloke who runs that website where they're always slagging off and grassing-up dealers", you'll be in big fucking shit.

Maybe that's already happening to you. 

Am I bothered.

No.

Because I don't like your ignorance or the ignorance on this site.


----------



## dum dum (Apr 30, 2005)

I always say "No i don't smoke mate" i rarely get asked though.I think its got something to do with what i say to that bunch.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

Okay hatboy - let's have some lessons from you in street survival.

*Scenario One:*
You're walking down the street, off to buy some jam or something, and there's a dozen 14-16 year old lads, straight out of school, in hoodies and that, and they give you the big one..."ahh batty boy" "blap blap blap" "fuck off gay manz" and what have you.

What do you do?


----------



## dum dum (Apr 30, 2005)

Pratt.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Harlem has never been dangerous in the daytime.  Night-time is another story, although I lived on 121st St at that time, and never had a problem at all.


Whereas Alphabet City and the Lower East Side in the mid 80s was rough as fuck, day or night!


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2005)

Ernie - It would depend on the exact people. But I am not a stereotype gay man - I don't often get stereotype attitudes to me.

It does happen, rarely.  I usually laugh it off or not react. Or might have a verbal go back - but in a way that it's hard to explain - not in any way trying to assume authority. I don't think I'm more important or better than them (whover them may be) It's hard to explain.  Oh and if I know adults that they know I'd be pretty indignant with the adults about it and they might well be on my side cos alot of people have seen me around and know I'm basically alright. 

Thing is tho, if you're in a minority (which I am) prejudice is water off a ducks back. You deal with it the whole of your life.

Anyway, Ernie, there's an honest explanation.  Can't say any more really.

And I am a fucking battyman and I don't mind being called one sometimes. Sometimes its funny.

Oh and you are a pratt Ernie. See, in asking that question you managed to also put across your homophobia. Would you say to a black man one here (not that much black people would bother with u75) "oh what's it like being called nigger?"

You can fuck right off. And no, I'm not upset. I just think you're another u75 arsehole.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> I can't stand the theme on this site of the nice people versus the nasty people.


I cant stand people who throw huge stereotypes around and try and pigeonhole great swathes of people to suit their own inbuilt prejudices whilst claiming the high moral ground.

How does that fit?


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Ernie - It would depend on the exact people. But I am not a stereotype gay man - I don't often get stereotype attitudes to me.
> 
> It does happen, rarely.  I usually laugh it off or not react. Or might have a verbal go back - but in a way that it's hard to explain - not in any way trying to assume authority. I don't think I'm more important of better than them (whover them may be) It's hard to explain.  Oh and if I know adults that they know I'd be pretty indignant with the adults about it and they might well be on my side cos alot of people have seen me around and know I'm basically alright.
> 
> ...




Cheers for the honest reply. Would you feel any different if it say happened in your hometown, or Tunbridge Wells or somewhere?


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Because I don't like your ignorance or the ignorance on this site.


So we're back to this shit all over again.   

I'm sorry to say that you're one of the worst two-faced hypocrites I've ever met. 

I thought you'd left here anyway?

I definitely recall you whining on forever about leaving in what felt like a 300 page flounce.


----------



## tobyjug (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> What do you do?



Deck the biggest mouthiest one.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 30, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Deck the biggest mouthiest one.



Most of these urchins carry some kind of tool - usually a flick-knife and more commonly a claw-hammer though.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Oh and +++, you're a dickhead to talk about what happens to you on here and where you live.


Best not upset those lovely crack dealers, eh?

Better to live in fear, never speak out and do nothing to try and improve your area...

Oh, and I don't know how many more times I have to keep telling you this, but my name here is "editor". DO NOT refer to me by my first name or even my initials.

Unless, of course, you want to help those _oh-so-sensitive_ dealers discover my identity.


----------



## tobyjug (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Most of these urchins carry some kind of tool - usually a flick-knife and more commonly a claw-hammer though.



One such gang in High Wycombe tried it on with my wife a few years ago, she decked the one who  pulled a knife on her. (Incidentally he is now in jail for 7 years for threatening a shop assistant with a knife).


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Deck the biggest mouthiest one.


I wouldn't recommend that around here. As ernie pointed out, a lot of the scumbags carry knives, and it can only take one cut...


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Okay hatboy - let's have some lessons from you in street survival.
> 
> *Scenario One:*
> You're walking down the street, off to buy some jam or something, and there's a dozen 14-16 year old lads, straight out of school, in hoodies and that, and they give you the big one..."ahh batty boy" "blap blap blap" "fuck off gay manz" and what have you.
> ...



  Actually a situation Ive had to deal with in Brixton.A friend of mine who was a TV(Eddie Izzard looka like) his girlfriend and me did get abuse like this in Brixton because he was dressed up.Fortunately it was daytime.

  Him and me ignored it.Unfortunately she told them to fuck off.It got decidely dodgy.As it was daytime and we were near Tescos(lots of people around) we got away with it.

   Street Survival tip number one for Ernesto  

  1)Size up a potentially dangerous situation in 2 seconds.If it looks like your outnumbered/they are bigger than you/look more violent dont escalate the situation.Experience tells me that the kind of people who do this wouldnt do it on their own.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2005)

"I'm sorry to say that you're one of the worst two-faced hypocrites I've ever met".

Whatever EDITOR whatever.  You needn't speak to me again if you don't want. I think your photgraphy and web design is great. But that's it really.

I sort of wished you'd go away when you talked to me in the pub the other day.

We have fundamental differences. So be it. There is no hate in this. It's just true.

Have a good Saturday.

Paul


----------



## phildwyer (Apr 30, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Whereas Alphabet City and the Lower East Side in the mid 80s was rough as fuck, day or night!



Yes it was.  I lived at 2nd and B in 92-93 and it was still rough then.  The heroin trade had deep roots in that community, it had dominated the area for 30 years, and there was a much higher proportion of junkies in the general population than in Harlem.  It changed very dramatically and very suddenly a couple of years after that.  I don't like to admit it, but it was aggressive policing wot done it.  Primarily within the NYPD itself, I suspect, since they must have been on the take to allow open drug trading on that scale.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> I sort of wished you'd go away when you talked to me in the pub the other day.


What a two-faced weasel you are.

*You came along to my club *on Thursday, we had a brief, friendly chat and now you're slagging me off here and - bizarrely - claiming that "you wished I'd gone away".

Well, here's some 'streetwise' tips for you: if you don't want to talk to me, don't come to my fucking club. If you don't want to have a conversation, keep your mouth shut.

Oh, and look! You've managed to turn the thread around on to your favourite subject again: yourself.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2005)

You don't own the pub (NAME DELETED FOR THE FOURTH TIME) I just went to the pub. I would have been quite happy there without anyone from u75. You approached me.

I get on with who I get on with and not, not. I don't care so much anymore.

Have fun with the crack dealers dear.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> I get on with who I get on with and not, not. I don't care so much anymore.


You seem to care enough to come here and endlessly bitch on and on and on about u75 posters who aren't as 'Brixton' as you.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2005)

No that's not it.  

Anyway I'm off to do something easier now, like push water uphill or herd cats.


----------



## tobyjug (Apr 30, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I wouldn't recommend that around here. As ernie pointed out, a lot of the scumbags carry knives, and it can only take one cut...



Sorry the only reason these shithouses own the streets is because people let them.
I have never taken any shit from junior terrorists and neither has any of my family. 
If am walking down the street going about my lawful occasions anyone attempting anything violent with me takes the consequences. Fuck them.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> You don't own the pub ++++++++++


If you post up my real name again you'll be banned.

I'm fed up asking you to respect my privacy and the rules of this board.


----------



## hatboy (Apr 30, 2005)

Sorry about that. I did just forget. I was used to just saying your name. Though I do also think if you've got opinions put your name to them.

Look, there's one more thing to say. I am by no means without fault. But I just try to educate myself.

I also happen to be a white man who believes the white man has a lot to learn from the black man.

I don't really care what people make of that. I don't care about sounding PC or "liberal" any more.

It's just about trying to be more truthful. That's how I feel.

Paul


----------



## Choc (Apr 30, 2005)

re original topic.

as per usual i find it pretty very much dangerous around here unfortuanlety.
and propably would say it seems worse again recently.
i am sorry to say that i think the police does fuck all. i don't think brixton central should be an area for them to practice liberaly and sensitive approaches. it be better if the police was more authorative with 24 hours a day street attendance.

but i am special paranoid because i just live off chl and was mugged about 3/4 years ago in electric ave. ever since then i am much more scared.


----------



## layabout (Apr 30, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Croydon's got more black teenagers than Brixton - you should get out more!
> 
> Saying that - a student of mine is in intensive care after being stabbed and hammered in Croydon last week.



Sickening. I care a lot about this kind of stuff, 3 of my friends were stabbed before they was 18 and it's not easy to recover. Is there any way you can setup a PayPal account that people can donate to? I can't personally donate that much but every little helps and the lad / laddette may want to keep busy after recovering by going to the gym or something.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

I don't whether it's the summer madness building up, but there's been a near-endless procession of police sirens going past my block in the last hour or so.


----------



## layabout (Apr 30, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> "I'm sorry to say that you're one of the worst two-faced hypocrites I've ever met".
> 
> Whatever EDITOR whatever.  You needn't speak to me again if you don't want. I think your photgraphy and web design is great. But that's it really.
> 
> ...



Cut it out, you two.


----------



## editor (Apr 30, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> Cut it out, you two.


Who made you a mod?

And why are you reposting an entire post just to add one line?

Looks like you're trying to stir it up, way after the event. Not good.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 30, 2005)

tobyjug said:
			
		

> Sorry the only reason these shithouses own the streets is because people let them.
> I have never taken any shit from junior terrorists and neither has any of my family.
> If am walking down the street going about my lawful occasions anyone attempting anything violent with me takes the consequences. Fuck them.




What a load of posturing macho wank. What if the consequences are that you end up in hospital? Or are you some sort of SAS type?


----------



## detective-boy (Apr 30, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> Cut it out, you two.



Good try!


----------



## eeyore (Apr 30, 2005)

ernesto, why whenever hatboy makes a comment do you follow it up with a post that refers to homosexuality?

genuine question


----------



## layabout (Apr 30, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Who made you a mod?
> 
> And why are you reposting an entire post just to add one line?
> 
> Looks like you're trying to stir it up, way after the event. Not good.



Oh come on. It was just a bit of cheeky humour. It wasn't meant to getcha going.


----------



## layabout (Apr 30, 2005)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
			
		

> What a load of posturing macho wank. What if the consequences are that you end up in hospital? Or are you some sort of SAS type?



To be honest, it sometimes does pay to stand up to them and I always used to get away with it, though I do admit I could have easily landed myself in hospital.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Apr 30, 2005)

I didn't feel unsafe in Brixton. I think alot of it can depend on where you were bought up as well, having grown up in Waltham Forest, which is fucking rough now, I have to say that I'd much rather walk around Brixton than Walthamstow, any day.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Apr 30, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> To be honest, it sometimes does pay to stand up to them and I always used to get away with it, though I do admit I could have easily landed myself in hospital.



Sometimes it might work, sometimes it might not. That's a different comment from Tobyjug's 'I'm well 'ard, me' crap.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 30, 2005)

I was on my way home from work at around 6 this morning and there were about six police dog vans parked by McDonald's.  They were all about to go.

Looked like there might have been some kind of drugs raid going on.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Apr 30, 2005)

Ms T said:
			
		

> I was on my way home from work at around 6 this morning and there were about six police dog vans parked by McDonald's.  They were all about to go.
> 
> Looked like there might have been some kind of drugs raid going on.


LOL! More likely to be getting their sausage and egg McMuffins if you ask me.
It's a tradition, early turn always go to McShite's for breakfast!


----------



## layabout (Apr 30, 2005)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
			
		

> Sometimes it might work, sometimes it might not. That's a different comment from Tobyjug's 'I'm well 'ard, me' crap.



It's common knowledge that he has a disability. I *think* he was coming from the "I'm going about my business, if you're gonna bash me up, bash me up" kinda attitude.

I have felt like that before sometimes. Once I managed to persuade a gang of 3 that I was some kind of fucking loon - they was just about to mug me but there was this real anger in me that wanted to cause them a lot of grief even if I was going to regret it - Why? Because I was only a few hundred yards away from my house. I just was not prepared to go through the indignity of being mugged on my own street without one hell of a fight.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 30, 2005)

It's not really about your individual power, though.

If *everyone* had the attitude that they weren't going to stand for this bullshit, and supported each other, it wouldn't be a problem. If muggers knew that if they smacked somebody by the cashpoints, everyone at the bus stop come over and tackle them, it wouldn't happen.




I have to say that the only time I've ever seen anything like that happen in Brixton (a beggar being assaulted by some wanker - the wanker's kid spat on the beggar, the guy complained, and the wanker started on him) I was in the foulest, most misanthropic mood imaginable, and did not care about any of them. I'm still ashamed of that. I could have done something, too, I was bigger than the bloke and I could have at least fetched a copper.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 1, 2005)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> No it wasn't.  It felt that way to you because (I'll bet) you're white, and you were the only white person in sight.  That can feel dangerous the first time it happens, but a moment's reflection will reveal that it is simply the product of unconscious racism.  Harlem has never been dangerous in the daytime.  Night-time is another story, although I lived on 121st St at that time, and never had a problem at all.



Yes it fucking was and don't tell me otherwise because you were not there. 

It was dangerous because I and the people I was digging the road with were white in a completely black area. Thats not unconcious racism. It was real racism directed towards us. And a first for a 19 year old paddy working in a foreign country for the first time. I could fucking feel the hatred and intimidation and I've never been so shitless in my life.

121st street is 47 streets and a million miles from 168th street. Did you ever work for a day on 168th street?

Now fuck off and 'reflect' on your posts before you jump to conclusions and accuse somebody of 'unconcious' rasism. Fucking ignorant prick.


----------



## detective-boy (May 1, 2005)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> It's not really about your individual power, though.
> If *everyone* had the attitude that they weren't going to stand for this bullshit, and supported each other, it wouldn't be a problem. If muggers knew that if they smacked somebody by the cashpoints, everyone at the bus stop come over and tackle them, it wouldn't happen.



And that is the main point - there are more of us than them but they are getting bolder because we let them.


----------



## eeyore (May 1, 2005)

another example.

Last night on Landor Road lots of screaming and shouting at 4 am. I woke up to hear one guy screaming "Get the fuck away from her! Leave her alone!" followed by the usual "You want some do you?" I lie in my bed until I decide to get up and go and see if there was a serious assault going on. By the time I get out there it's a bloke and a woman having a serious barney in the street, with her storming off and him yelling "get the fuck back here!" and then almost getting run over by a police car and the giving them some stick (and getting duly restrained, another police car radioes and him arrested while the lucky bugger already in the back of the police car ran off).

Now from my bed this sounded like something really nasty and judging by the bloke's behaviour towards the police, and the reaction of the guy who originally intervened, violence seemed to be a the front of the man's mind. I'm a fully paid up coward but was one of only two people on the entire street who bothered to check if the woman was being assaulted.

Fucking sad


----------



## Roadkill (May 1, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Better to live in fear, never speak out and do nothing to try and improve your area...
> 
> ...
> 
> Unless, of course, you want to help those _oh-so-sensitive_ dealers discover my identity.



It's that serious, is it?  That really _is_ worrying.  

I'm not familiar enough with Brixton to answer the initial question, but I can't say I've found it much more threatening a place than a lot of other areas of London. But then I've usually been there in daylight, or in a big group of people.  Tbh, I wouldn't want to live there, especially given the experiences of yourself and several other people on the boards.  Life's too short to be looking over your shoulder all the time when you're walking home from the pub.


----------



## ernestolynch (May 1, 2005)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> It's that serious, is it?  That really _is_ worrying.
> 
> I'm not familiar enough with Brixton to answer the initial question, but I can't say I've found it much more threatening a place than a lot of other areas of London. But then I've usually been there in daylight, or in a big group of people.  Tbh, I wouldn't want to live there, especially given the experiences of yourself and several other people on the boards.  Life's too short to be looking over your shoulder all the time when you're walking home from the pub.



My feelings entirely, as I said earlier on the thread.


----------



## Roadkill (May 1, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> My feelings entirely.



I doubt that.


----------



## editor (May 1, 2005)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> Tbh, I wouldn't want to live there, especially given the experiences of yourself and several other people on the boards.  Life's too short to be looking over your shoulder all the time when you're walking home from the pub.


 Brixton's got the friendliest, liveliest community I've found _anywhere_ in London (and I've moved all around the place) and there's a lot of places I'd find a whole lot more worrying on a Saturday night than downtown SW9.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 1, 2005)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> It's that serious, is it?  That really _is_ worrying.
> 
> Life's too short to be looking over your shoulder all the time when you're walking home from the pub.



I think it's easy to come to that conclusion when people talk about specific (albeit horrible) experiences. These experiences tend, thankfully to be pretty isolated. 

My wife and I have lived in Brixton for a long time now. We love it. We'll never live anywhere else in London but here.


----------



## ernestolynch (May 2, 2005)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> I doubt that.



You have no brain though.


----------



## blackadder (May 2, 2005)

I never really had a problem in Brixton whilst I was working there, except for this one time in a filling station when a group of hooded youth came in and decided to push their way to the front of the que. To be honest, I was surprised they went to pay for the goods.


----------



## DG55 (May 2, 2005)

Well im certainly not tempted by the pleasures of Brixton whilst nearly being done-over a few days ago in neighbouring Camberwell...


----------



## editor (May 2, 2005)

What's Camberwell got to do with Brixton?


----------



## Dubversion (May 2, 2005)

DG55 said:
			
		

> Well im certainly not tempted by the pleasures of Brixton whilst nearly being done-over a few days ago in neighbouring Camberwell...




it's bad that this happened, but i'm not sure it proves anything.. i got more abuse, threats and actual violence living in Bournemouth / Poole than i ever have in Brixton.


----------



## ernestolynch (May 2, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> it's bad that this happened, but i'm not sure it proves anything.. i got more abuse, threats and actual violence living in Bournemouth / Poole than i ever have in Brixton.



Bloody chavs eh? Always picking on goffs.


----------



## Dubversion (May 2, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Bloody chavs eh? Always picking on goffs.



whatever you say, ern.


----------



## ernestolynch (May 2, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> whatever you say, ern.



You know you got shctick off the Sergio Tacchini/Fila/Ellesse boys.


----------



## Dubversion (May 2, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You know you got shctick off the Sergio Tacchini/Fila/Ellesse boys.



whatever you say, ern.


oh, and in this context, you mean just 'stick'. tut tut, teacherboy


----------



## DG55 (May 2, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> What's Camberwell got to do with Brixton?



I was aware that they are close, unless i'm mistaken.

I mean its probably more psycological than anything, after being scared shitless things appear different somewhat. Im sure this occurance could have happened easily in many other places.


----------



## ernestolynch (May 2, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> whatever you say, ern.



A goff to a casual is like a red rag to a bull is it not?


----------



## editor (May 2, 2005)

DG55 said:
			
		

> I was aware that they are close, unless i'm mistaken.


Brixton's as close to Camberwell as it is to Clapham and I wouldn't see any reason to lump those two in together.


----------



## Roadkill (May 2, 2005)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> You have no brain though.



You can do much better than that, in terms of insulting people.




> Brixton's got the friendliest, liveliest community I've found anywhere in London (and I've moved all around the place) and there's a lot of places I'd find a whole lot more worrying on a Saturday night than downtown SW9.



As I say, I don't know it that well, and when I have been, to u75 events and at other times, I've always liked it.  'Lively' is a good way to describe it IMO.  I do agree with you about there being a lot of worse places to wander round: small towns IME are worse than cities for random, mindless violence.  I'm still not overly keen on the idea of living there, like it though I do.  but then, I'm just a straw-munching northerner who finds London a bit big and bewildering so I'll sidle quietly out of this thread now...


----------



## behemoth (May 2, 2005)

Anyone else notice the fear of crime increases the older you get?

There are parts of London I used to walk around at 3am, but now wouldn't visit by day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2005)

behemoth said:
			
		

> Anyone else notice the fear of crime increases the older you get?
> 
> There are parts of London I used to walk around at 3am, but now wouldn't visit by day.



That's just it. It's *fear*, not crime itself which, IMHO hasn't gotten worse, just more publicised.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 2, 2005)

It's not increased with me; I'm no more fearful wandering around at 3am than I used to be. More tired, perhaps.


----------



## bluestreak (May 2, 2005)

my two cents:

personally though i can see why brixton is popular i don't really like it.  it's too full-on for a delicate soul like myself.  too in yer face.

i don't feel especially safe there, though this is mostly around the station, and i wouldn't live in a place that made me nervous.

i don't feel any less safe there these days, i don't think its changed.  however, and maybe this is just because of the brixton-centred nature of urban, i do hear a lot more about violence, muggings and whatnot coming out of brixton than anywhere else in london where i have friends.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 2, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I have to say that Somerleyton Road is _very_ gnarly these days: it's the only street in Brixton I won't walk down at night.
> 
> It's 'orrible!



I understand why you think that. It's where you were randomly attacked....I walk down there all the time including the wee small hours....tbh the only time I don't walk home that way is actually when I'm heading home after some Urban gathering and I am walking back with you, then I go a slightly longer route home, cutting out Somerleyton altogether (not because I think you need protecting, just because we're chatting!).....blokes I know often offer to walk me back because of it's reputation, but I rarely take up the offer, mainly because I think blokes are at more risk than me.....I don't deny it's gnarlier than it was though.....mainly because a lot of dealing has been displaced from CHL to Somerleyton....


----------



## editor (May 2, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I walk down there all the time including the wee small hours....


To be honest, I wouldn't recommend walking down Somerleyton late at night to anyone - and I fear you've just been lucky to avoid any hassle so far.

I've heard enough tales of woe from other friends and any street that has got people lurking in the shadows_ wearing black ski masks _at 3am has to be way dodgy!


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 2, 2005)

In my experience muttering middle-aged women are left alone on the whole......I'm quite gnarled meself!


----------



## linerider (May 3, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> To be honest, I wouldn't recommend walking down Somerleyton late at night to anyone - and I fear you've just been lucky to avoid any hassle so far.
> 
> I've heard enough tales of woe from other friends and any street that has got people lurking in the shadows_ wearing black ski masks _at 3am has to be way dodgy!



 i live on somerleyton and mad as it sounds i think the fact that there are so many dealers there keeps crime down.the dealers don't put up with muggings as it's bad for business(i know this as i have spoken to them about it).
 i think it's alot more dodgy on some of the quieter streets off railton rd.no-one i know has been mugged on somerleyton rd,but i can't say the same for shakespeare,milton,saulton and the like.
 i'm not trying to say that having crack dealers on the street is a good thing(unless you fancy a rock at 3am,and don't want to have to walk far  )but lets get some perspective on this.having someone with or without a mask trying to sell you drugs can be a pain in the arse,but it ain't going to do you any physical damage,it's something you put up with evey time you try to walk into the albert.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2005)

linerider said:
			
		

> having someone with or without a mask trying to sell you drugs can be a pain in the arse,but it ain't going to do you any physical damage,it's something you put up with evey time you try to walk into the albert.


Thing is, people high on crack tend to a tad unpredictable, hence my fist sandwich last year.


----------



## IntoStella (May 3, 2005)

behemoth said:
			
		

> Anyone else notice the fear of crime increases the older you get?
> 
> There are parts of London I used to walk around at 3am, but now wouldn't visit by day.


I think that comes from experience. After you've had a knife shoved in your face a couple of times you get a lot more cautious.


----------



## editor (May 3, 2005)

What's changed the Brixton night landscape _substantially _for the worse in the last five years is the rise of crack and smack.

Both drugs often drive street users into a life of low level crime, with crack heads sometimes not being adverse to the odd bout of ultraviolence to raise the cash for the next fix (or, in my case, random violence just for the fun of it).


----------



## top_biller (May 3, 2005)

Nastiest incident i saw was an argument between two blokes and a woman on Saltoun Road which escalated into on of the blokes kicking her to the ground, methodically taking off his belt and starting to whip her with the buckle end. By this time me and my flatmate had got round the corner where we decided that we should go back and do something (we weren't sure what, although I remember lighting a cigarette on the run in an effort to look harder/have a burning implement to fend off the belt...?!). Anyway, by the time we got there the police were just rolling up and the guy got thrown in the back of the van.

Personally I'd like to have a quiet word with whoever designed the recessed doorways down the side of the Tate Library on Rushcroft Road. Many a time i've almost jumped out of my skin upon seeing shadowy figures occupying each one. I mean, why not just move the doorway flush with the wall? Never seen them be used and they stink of piss.


----------



## OpalFruit (May 3, 2005)

I think the coppers are too scared to do anything in Brixton in case they get called 'rascists'.[/QUOTE]

Do you REALLY think that, or are you on a Daily Mail type rant about so-called 'PC'-ness?


----------



## OpalFruit (May 3, 2005)

Sorry the message above was a reply to Ernesto's quote on p5, where he commented that pollice in brixton wouldn't arrest anyone for fear of being called racist.


----------



## linerider (May 3, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Thing is, people high on crack tend to a tad unpredictable, hence my fist sandwich last year.



i voted that brixton is a little bit more dangerous(based on a couple of mates having bags snatched in the street). and i understand that if you get whacked it puts things in a different light,but it can also cloud your view. people who visit me in southwych house sometimes comment on the dealers,but none have said they wouldn't come round again because of them.some people on crack can be unpredictable,but that's the problem,how do you avoid something or someone that's unpredictable.


----------



## behemoth (May 3, 2005)

OpalFruit said:
			
		

> Sorry the message above was a reply to Ernesto's quote on p5, where he commented that pollice in brixton wouldn't arrest anyone for fear of being called racist.


Maybe not race exactly, but there are things someone would get nicked for in Tenterden that would probably be overlooked in Brixton.


----------



## ernestolynch (May 3, 2005)

OpalFruit said:
			
		

> I think the coppers are too scared to do anything in Brixton in case they get called 'rascists'.



Do you REALLY think that, or are you on a Daily Mail type rant about so-called 'PC'-ness?[/QUOTE]

Yes I do. I've never read this paper which you seem to be obsessed with either.
What's 'pc-ness'?


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 3, 2005)

Things are getting bad in Walthamstow, take a look at this:


"FEELINGS are running high after a man was stabbed in a street robbery.

It was the 12th reported incident in the Church Path area of Walthamstow Village in three months.

Residents gathered to discuss the crisis on Tuesday after a 41-year-old was lucky to survive an attack in St. Mary's Churchyard on April 19.

He was followed by two men as he walked home from Walthamstow Central station at 9.30pm. They grabbed his laptop and stabbed him twice.

He managed to stumble the short distance home where he collapsed and his wife called an ambulance.

He has since been discharged after spending time in intensive care. The traumatised family have decided to move away."



I am so glad we moved my mum out of the area, it's gone to shit. Never used to be this bad, even 10 years ago.


----------



## ernestolynch (May 3, 2005)

Flimsier?


----------



## Ms Ordinary (May 3, 2005)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> it's bad that this happened, but i'm not sure it proves anything.. i got more abuse, threats and actual violence living in Bournemouth / Poole than i ever have in Brixton.



Actually, I wonder if people's experiences of these kind of places affect how they view places like Brixton & Hackney (& other 'scary' inner city type places that the media go on about).

Eg - someone grows up in Bournemouth, gets randomly beaten up a few times, reads in the paper about Brixton / the murder mile (but never about 'scary' Bournemouth) & then assumes (if they never come here) that Brixton must be at least three times scarier than Bournemouth...


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 3, 2005)

behemoth said:
			
		

> Maybe not race exactly, but there are things someone would get nicked for in Tenterden that would probably be overlooked in Brixton.




Isn't that more to do with the legendary cuntishness of the Kent constabulary?

...and before you ask, yes, me and mine have experienced the legendary cuntishness of the Kent constabulary.

I don't personally think that the Met in Brixton are slacker than your bobbies, I just think they've got different priorities.


----------



## OpalFruit (May 4, 2005)

behemoth said:
			
		

> Maybe not race exactly, but there are things someone would get nicked for in Tenterden that would probably be overlooked in Brixton.



So, on the one hand, we have well documented incidents of police racism including harrassment of black people , and on the other hand, according to Ernesto, black people acting in a criminal manner are not arrested because the police are afraid of being seen to be racist? Ernesto, you really should read the Daily Mail more - they are firm believers that black people/immigrants/asylum seekers/benefit claimants/anyone they don't like are free to run amok because the nanny-state/do-gooders/radical barristers have made it practically compulsory to enable all manner of criminal activity amongst these groups. Very racist reactionary point of view, I think.

I am sure that incidents which are common in Brixton would cause eyebrows to shoot skywards in tenterden, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the police attitude to race.

I shouldn't be rising to this, should I?


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 4, 2005)

OpalFruit said:
			
		

> according to Ernesto, black people acting in a criminal manner are not arrested because the police are afraid of being seen to be racist?



he's right, well sort of. After the McPherson report many cops (black AND white) simply gave up stopping and searching black people, they thought that it was too big a risk.You can go and ask any cop who was in the job at the time. Don't tell me I am talking bullshit cos I know.


----------



## LDR (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> he's right, well sort of. After the McPherson report many cops (black AND white) simply gave up stopping and searching black people, they thought that it was too big a risk.You can go and ask any cop who was in the job at the time. Don't tell me I am talking bullshit cos I know.


So are you telling us that the police were afraid to do their job?  

The more I learn about the police over here the less respect I have for them.


----------



## behemoth (May 4, 2005)

OpalFruit said:
			
		

> you really should read the Daily Mail more - they are firm believers that black people/immigrants/asylum seekers/benefit claimants/anyone they don't like are free to run amok because the nanny-state/do-gooders/radical barristers have made it practically compulsory to enable all manner of criminal activity amongst these groups. Very racist reactionary point of view, I think.


Your wild generalisations about the Daily Mail are even wilder than what you claim they say, as opposed to what they actually say. Unless you really do read it every day, in which case, why?


----------



## tarannau (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> . Don't tell me I am talking bullshit cos I know.




Sadly, just as many coppers and associates think they know best, you seem to be talking bullshit. Judging by this survey  from statewatch, an even more disproportionate number of ethnic minorities were searched following the MacPherson report. Read the cold statistics yourself...

I've had plenty of experience of cops and stop and search. It's nonsense to suggest that there isn't a problem...


----------



## behemoth (May 4, 2005)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Isn't that more to do with the legendary cuntishness of the Kent constabulary?
> 
> ...and before you ask, yes, me and mine have experienced the legendary cuntishness of the Kent constabulary.
> 
> I don't personally think that the Met in Brixton are slacker than your bobbies, I just think they've got different priorities.


I've witnessed them to be firm but fair when dealing with violent drunks in Rochester High Street, not a job I'd like to have to do. 

My experience of being "detained" is that the Met are far worse than Kent. We even have a black chief constable!!! Beat that for PC-ness.


----------



## ridedabeat (May 4, 2005)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Sadly, just as many coppers and associates think they know best, you seem to be talking bullshit. Judging by this survey  from statewatch, an even more disproportionate number of ethnic minorities were searched following the MacPherson report. Read the cold statistics yourself...
> 
> I've had plenty of experience of cops and stop and search. It's nonsense to suggest that there isn't a problem...


What happened after Mcpherson was that the police started doing their job very slightly less badly. For example, the police were forced - shock horror - to fill in a form after each stop and search _justifying it._

Naturally the Daily Mail interprets this as "pc gone mad" of the poor old hard working bill being burried in a pile of nasty socialist paperwork, of honest coppers losing out to dastardly criminals, etc etc.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 4, 2005)

LD Rudeboy said:
			
		

> So are you telling us that the police were afraid to do their job?


Not afraid, there was a time when many turned a blind eye to things for fear of being accused of racism. They thought "what's the fucking point?"It's not as bad now, but for a time, back then, the ones I had known who had been in the job for a good few years, they just gave up. It simply wasn't worth the hassle of maybe losing your job. That's a fact.


----------



## ridedabeat (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Not afraid, there was a time when many turned a blind eye to things for fear of being accused of racism. They thought "what's the fucking point?"It's not as bad now, but for a time, back then, the ones I had known who had been in the job for a good few years, they just gave up. It simply wasn't worth the hassle of maybe losing your job. That's a fact.


The poor dears. They could no longer stop and search a black man for no reason. So unfair!


----------



## LDR (May 4, 2005)

Of course they were afraid.    What do you call it then?

They were afraid they would lose their job (which I doubt they would of unless they were being racist and it's common knowledge that there is/was institutionalised racism in police so maybe they were right to be afraid as they would have been called up on their racism) and instead of doing their job, they turned a blind eye.

It's yet another example of why cops are cunts.  They are more gutless than I thought too.


----------



## tarannau (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Not afraid, there was a time when many turned a blind eye to things for fear of being accused of racism. They thought "what's the fucking point?"It's not as bad now, but for a time, back then, the ones I had known who had been in the job for a good few years, they just gave up. It simply wasn't worth the hassle of maybe losing your job. That's a fact.




That's what they were saying. But there again these were probably the same kind of coppers who were claiming that there were/are no problems with racism in the force, a far cry from the experience of much of the general public around here. 

Can't trust the police to give an impartial view of such matters, can you really? Most are much better at moaning and procrastinating about how things used to be, rather than actually taking steps to fundamentally improve things for all. IMO of course...


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 4, 2005)

LD Rudeboy said:
			
		

> It's yet another example of why cops are cunts.  They are more gutless than I thought too.


What, all of them?


----------



## dum dum (May 4, 2005)

ridedabeat said:
			
		

> The poor dears. They could no longer stop and search a black man for no reason. So unfair!



Welcome A.K


----------



## LDR (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> What, all of them?


No, that would be a generalisation and I haven't met every cop.  

However, I would say that every cop I've had dealings with over here has been a nasty piece of bigoted work.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 4, 2005)

dum dum said:
			
		

> Welcome A.K


Well spotted!


----------



## dum dum (May 4, 2005)

Thankyou ladies and gents.

It was the "So unfair"bit this time by the way A.K


----------



## editor (May 4, 2005)

dum dum said:
			
		

> Welcome A.K


By Christ, he's fucking obsessed!

Banned again.


----------



## agricola (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Not afraid, there was a time when many turned a blind eye to things for fear of being accused of racism. They thought "what's the fucking point?"It's not as bad now, but for a time, back then, the ones I had known who had been in the job for a good few years, they just gave up. It simply wasn't worth the hassle of maybe losing your job. That's a fact.



I had only just joined at the time, but certainly the witchhunt that drove PC Steve Hutt out of his job, combined with how McPherson was presented to the rank-and-file did lead to some people feeling that any kind of complaint along those lines would lead to similar action, irrespective of the substance of it.  It certainly led to much less willingness from a lot of people to confront problems before they blew up, not only at the front end but higher-ups as well, which is why we saw after so many officers were made to walk around the West End, Canary Wharf etc after 9/11 certain categories of crime rise (though there were other reasons for this, and the general "rise" in crime is much less real than elements of the media suggest it is).

However, as in so many things, what the reality of the situation was and how it was percieved were widely different things, and once the malaise had died out, together with the shock the Government recieved when post-9/11 robbery figures went through the roof, changed what had been a quite politically correct administration into one of the more draconian ones - ID cards, ASBOs, Dispersal / Closure Orders etc.  

rideabeat,

Actually the implementation of recommendation 61 (recording of all stops and searches) didnt change that much - Police had been recording searches for a while, the only change was that the form got bigger and was carbonated so that you could supply a copy, if it was requested, to the person stopped, and that stops as well as searches had to be recorded.

Far be it from me to agree with the Daily Mail, but they are right when they suggest that the amount of paperwork that has to be done is a disgrace - not so much stop/search, but more towards issues regarding domestic violence and the infamous form 124D and the duplication of work involved in reporting what may only be a very minor, non-physical argument.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 4, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> By Christ, he's fucking obsessed!
> 
> Banned again.



Oh come on, where's your sense of humour you miserable old fart! I think it's well funny.


----------



## editor (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Oh come on, where's your sense of humour you miserable old fart! I think it's well funny.


Yes. It's really hilarious having someone take the piss out of the mods and disrupting threads on a regular basis.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 4, 2005)

Where's that pic someone did, of you and Anna Key in the library? That was fucking class!


----------



## editor (May 4, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Where's that pic someone did, of you and Anna Key in the library? That was fucking class!


I'd rather that this isn't dredged up all over again.

As Morrissey put it, "that joke isn't funny anymore".


----------



## Mr Retro (May 5, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> What, all of them?



I've always thought the fact somebody wants to be a cop makes them a cunt. So in my view all cops are cunts.

Paddick was a good cop but the cops got rid of him.


----------



## IntoStella (May 5, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I'd rather that this isn't dredged up all over again.
> 
> As Morrissey put it, "that joke isn't funny anymore".


 Or it could be that someone has been experiencing a massive SoH failure lately. 

Thank you Stobes. One of my better photoshop efforts,  I thought.


----------



## dum dum (May 5, 2005)

The monty python one in post your ugly mug is a good un n'all


----------



## ernestolynch (May 5, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Or it could be that someone has been experiencing a massive SoH failure lately.
> 
> Thank you Stobes. One of my better photoshop efforts,  I thought.



We all thought it was funny!


----------



## editor (May 5, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> Or it could be that someone has been experiencing a massive SoH failure lately.


My sense of humour is just fine, thanks. In fact, I've been having a fine time recently.

Maybe you're referring to the Weirdly Obsessed One?


----------



## detective-boy (May 7, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> You can go and ask any cop who was in the job at the time. Don't tell me I am talking bullshit cos I know.



I was a police officer in the job at the time.  You * are * talking bullshit.  It was a leadership problem - with capable and effective leaders there was no problem - do your job properly and people could whinge as much as they liked but you were OK.  With incapable and ineffective ones the problems were just multiplied - I saw many who simply encouraged inaction, bad attitude, etc.





			
				LDRudeboy said:
			
		

> However, I would say that every cop I've had dealings with over here has been a nasty piece of bigoted work.



And how many do you know exactly?  Outside their work?  




			
				MrRetro said:
			
		

> I've always thought the fact somebody wants to be a cop makes them a cunt. So in my view all cops are cunts.
> 
> Paddick was a good cop but the cops got rid of him.



I love reasoned argument!  Paddick (presumably) wanted to be a cop, therefore you must think he is a cunt.

And, anyway, they didn't "get rid of him".  He's a Deputy Assistant Commissioner on £80k+  - absolute hell it must be!


----------



## Stobart Stopper (May 7, 2005)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> I was a police officer in the job at the time.  You * are * talking bullshit.



The year after the publication of the enquiry report saw a dramatic fall in the Stop/Search figures across the MPS. You can only draw one conclusion and that is that frontline officers disengaged from the confrontation of Stop/Serach. The fall had other effects as well. The street robbery figures climbed that the government had to task senior officers with threats about their jobs..the robbery figures were delivered direct to NO 10 and Stevens was called in weekly to account for them. As you will be aware Shite falls from above and seminars had to be held right across the Met to convince officers to use their powers again. Confidence was in a all time low. I will try to access the figures for the year before and after to see !


----------



## pooka (May 7, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> I will try to access the figures for the year before and after to see !






> It shows that total notifiable offences (TNOs) have increased since the beginning of the year in a pattern which is matched by that for street crime but mirrored by a fall in searches. Burglaries (which run at four times the rate of street crimes) have remained effectively stable over this period; and drugs offences - where the totals, unlike most TNOs, are strongly influenced by proactive policing - have also fallen.
> 
> The main reasons for the fall in searches, however, need to be unpacked. The Macpherson Inquiry undoubtedly had a significantly inhibiting effect; and this emerged strongly from my own interviews as well as those conducted by Mark Kilgallon. At the same time, a number of events which required high profile policing took nearly 60 per cent more officers away from normal street duties than during the same period of the previous year; and there was a pattern of increases in calls from members of the public - including those deemed to be most urgent (the 'I' calls). This means fewer officers were available to undertake searches; but, perhaps more importantly, it also means there were simply fewer officers on the street. As Figure 2:4 clearly shows, trends in street crime also closely mirror the increase in demand for officers to respond to calls from members of the public.
> 
> ...



Final report into Stop and Search - Marion Fitzgerald 

See also:

MPA Stop and Search Scrutiny Report


----------



## pinkmonkey (May 7, 2005)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Here we go:
> 
> 1) Someone said:
> 
> ...



Look, I don't like being hassled by men - it doesn't matter what they are doing, selling drugs, trying to chat me up in a bar or leering at me from a building site.  I don't judge these people as nice or nasty, I just wish they'd leave me alone. - I  find them intimidating and it makes me nervous.

I've tried the 'I'm not interested thanks,' line with the CHL lot.  It doesn't work - perhaps its different for you - you're a known face round those parts and you're a bloke.  I'm not.  Some of them  _are_ pushy, very pushy.

I can't be bothered with having to explain myself constantly to men who follow me down the street (and who whistle at me like I'm a fuckin budgie or something) and that's why I live in N13.

<fucks off back to the 'burbs'>


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 7, 2005)

I've had similar conversations with hatboy to the point beyond ennui ...he really doesn't understand that if you're not a tall deep voiced bloke that you might get harrassed and therefore the fault must lie with your attitude or body language.


----------



## agricola (May 7, 2005)

detective boy,

I look, maybe SS's "you can ask any cop" line goes too far, but there was certainly a lot of malaise where I was at the time, and what happened to Steve Hutt (combined with how McPherson was percieved), then (after he got back in) the article from Supt Dizaei in _Police Review_ caused many of the usual "the job is fucked" debates.

I guess it depends where one was, though there was a definite emphasis where I was (admittedly it was only CX) to making any searches you did do have lots of grounds (which probably wasnt a bad habit to get into) and this probably led to the less-motivated people not doing them when they would/should have been.


----------



## linerider (May 7, 2005)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> And how many do you know exactly?  Outside their work?
> QUOTE]
> 
> are you saying that they are nasty pieces of bigoted work when on the job and then when they clock out the become mild mannered anti racist/sexist/homophobic angels.
> ...


----------



## corporate whore (May 7, 2005)

pinkmonkey said:
			
		

> Some of them  _are_ pushy, very pushy.



True. Walked down CHL last night I was subjected to a little 'laying on of hands' after my usual cheery, well-versed 'no ta' was interpreted as a threat.   

Being threatened for refusing the advances is a new one on me. Very much in my face, with a little 'who ya talkin' to' thrown in for good measure. 

First bit of even semi-serious hassle I've encountered since about 1998, and that was my own stupid, drunken fault. Enough to sow a little seed of doubt, unfortunately..


----------



## Ms T (May 7, 2005)

This is rather a sobering tale.    

http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.u...unmen-rob-couple-in-their-bed--name_page.html


----------



## ernestolynch (May 7, 2005)

Ms T said:
			
		

> This is rather a sobering tale.
> 
> http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.u...unmen-rob-couple-in-their-bed--name_page.html



Sleep tight.


----------



## ChrisFilter (May 7, 2005)

corporate whore said:
			
		

> True. Walked down CHL last night I was subjected to a little 'laying on of hands' after my usual cheery, well-versed 'no ta' was interpreted as a threat.
> 
> Being threatened for refusing the advances is a new one on me. Very much in my face, with a little 'who ya talkin' to' thrown in for good measure.
> 
> First bit of even semi-serious hassle I've encountered since about 1998, and that was my own stupid, drunken fault. Enough to sow a little seed of doubt, unfortunately..



yeah, I've noticed it getting a bit more pushy recently.. and I'm moving to CHL.. nice


----------



## detective-boy (May 9, 2005)

linerider said:
			
		

> are you saying that they are nasty pieces of bigoted work when on the job and then when they clock out the become mild mannered anti racist/sexist/homophobic angels.



No.  I'm not.  My point is that you don't actually KNOW someone until you have some form of relationship with them.  The police, whilst on duty are almost always dealing with people (a) who don't want to be dealt with or (b) people who are distressed / wound-up or whatever.  Neither allows for a proper relationship to be built.

In the absence of such, attitudes can only be built on stereotypes / prejudices, etc (on both sides).  They will almost always be wrong.


----------



## sootica (May 9, 2005)

Well, I moved to Brixton a while back. And though my flat's nice enough I really don't like the place much. _Clearly_ it's not a case that all parts are the same. But having to walk up from the station at most times of day and night is not that pleasant.

And all this police-bashing is pointless I think. The fact that this thread has even had so many responses shows that crime and aggression in Brixton is a big problem. I think the police have an unenviable job and I've a lot of respect for what they do. God knows, I wouldn't like to have to do it...


----------



## thedaddyj (May 9, 2005)

I've had the misfortune recently of had 'bablylon boy' screamed at me two or three times around brixton market. For some bizzare reason, certain jamaicans in the area seem to think I am a plain clothes police man. I was looking through a shop window on Acre lane, body architecture or something it's called, and I see this really tall black geezer eyeballing me, I carried on looking in the window at the clothes, and the next thing he comes out of the shop and shouts 'Babylon boy, FUCK OFF!' Same thing happened to me in Brixton market twice since as well. For fucks sake, it's not like I was wearing a bomber jacket and DM's. What the fuck is going on? 

I try not to make assumptions about people based on the colour of their skin, and I don't like it when it happens to me either.


----------



## Mr Retro (May 9, 2005)

What does Babylon Boy mean?

Is it just a general term of abuse or a more specific one?


----------



## tarannau (May 9, 2005)

thedaddyj said:
			
		

> I try not to make assumptions about people based on the colour of their skin, and I don't like it when it happens to me either.



Erm, no disrepect, but I don't think that's solely to with skin colour. Plenty of folks pass by without being accused of looking like rozzers....


----------



## Orang Utan (May 9, 2005)

Babylon usually refers to cops or authority figures but to Rastafarians it's basically anywhere but Africa.


----------



## ChrisFilter (May 9, 2005)

sootica said:
			
		

> Well, I moved to Brixton a while back. And though my flat's nice enough I really don't like the place much.



Move then?


----------



## detective-boy (May 9, 2005)

I wouldn't disagree that there was a fall in morale at the time - it's well documented and, as I mentioned earlier, was made worse by many poor middle management.

I still disagree that it caused officers to give up arresting black suspects (as alleged by ernestolynch and apparently agreed with by StobartSpotter) and give up stopping and searching black suspects.

In my recollection those who did give up stopping and searching gave up across the board - many using it as an excuse to be even more idle than they had been before!  Those who wanted to work for a living continued to stop and search people of all colours, but taking more care to ensure that they had lawful grounds.

Arrests continued pretty much unabated (relatively few coming from stop-searches anyway) and I don't remember a sudden absence of black prisoners in my custody offices.

In short, YES there was a drop in morale and some used it as an excuse to stop working.  But, NO, race was not an issue - it was across the board.


----------



## layabout (May 10, 2005)

agricola said:
			
		

> detective boy,
> 
> I look, maybe SS's "you can ask any cop" line goes too far, but there was certainly a lot of malaise where I was at the time, and what happened to Steve Hutt (combined with how McPherson was percieved), then (after he got back in) the article from Supt Dizaei in _Police Review_ caused many of the usual "the job is fucked" debates.
> 
> I guess it depends where one was, though there was a definite emphasis where I was (admittedly it was only CX) to making any searches you did do have lots of grounds (which probably wasnt a bad habit to get into) and this probably led to the less-motivated people not doing them when they would/should have been.



CX is Charing Cross isn't it? I bedded one your lot. Got drunk and stoned with him. He had a whopper an all!


----------



## sootica (May 10, 2005)

Hi ChrisFilter,

Moving isn't an option for a couple of years as living in a privately owned flat and can't sell up yet. Am living with someone I love, who means more to me than where I am living. And it's convenient for both our jobs. But hey ho, it won't be forever, I hope.... And though lots of people love Brixton, I'll be glad to leave to be honest.


----------



## editor (May 10, 2005)

(Off topic posts and AK trolling removed)


----------



## LDR (May 10, 2005)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> No.  I'm not.  My point is that you don't actually KNOW someone until you have some form of relationship with them.  The police, whilst on duty are almost always dealing with people (a) who don't want to be dealt with or (b) people who are distressed / wound-up or whatever.  Neither allows for a proper relationship to be built.
> 
> In the absence of such, attitudes can only be built on stereotypes / prejudices, etc (on both sides).  They will almost always be wrong.


I don't disagree with any of that.  I appreciate that many of my unpleasant dealings have been with the police when they have been on duty.

I know of three policeman that I know in a social sense. 

One is a friends father who was very high up and I suspect he may have worked with Pot Bellied Pig at some stage.  He worked most of this career in Tottenham.  He was without doubt one of the most bigoted and racist people I've ever met.  My friend was disgusted by his Father's outbursts against black people.  

Another policeman I know was married to a colleague of mine.  They broke up after she couldn't take his beatings anymore.   He was a nasty, sleazy bully.

The only other guy I know is a brother of one of my close friends.  He's now in the riot police.  Not my friend but his brother.  I had a chat with him about protesting and his views were pretty much that the protester was the enemy. 

My prejudices against the police are based on my experiences and I admit that there are good coppers out there. I just haven't met any yet.


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## editor (May 10, 2005)

(irrelevant images removed)

Please keep posts on this thread on topic. Thank you.


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## Stobart Stopper (May 10, 2005)

LD Rudeboy said:
			
		

> One is a friends father who was very high up and I suspect he may have worked with Pot Bellied Pig at some stage.  He worked most of this career in Tottenham.
> .


Pig has never worked at Tottenham, pm me this bloke's name and I will be able to tell you if he worked with him somewhere else.


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## LDR (May 10, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Pig has never worked at Tottenham, pm me this bloke's name and I will be able to tell you if he worked with him somewhere else.


My mistake.  I thought that was Pig's stomping ground.

Anyway, PM on the way.


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## detective-boy (May 11, 2005)

LD Rudeboy said:
			
		

> I know of three policeman that I know in a social sense ... My prejudices against the police are based on my experiences and I admit that there are good coppers out there. I just haven't met any yet.



I think you've been a bit unlucky in getting that hat trick!  The racial bigotry you describe certainly existed in the past and is still there to some extent, especially in older officers (some in senior rank).  It is disappearing fast as society changes and new recruits bring far more modern attitudes.

Domestic violence by officers is again not unknown but nor is it in other fields.  The public order officers attitude, if general, surprises me.  Most have had some bad experiences of particular demonstrators but have no issue with the majority of others.

You seem to have met three bad examples ... but remember there are about 140,000 others to choose from!!  Maybe we should have a pint sometime, then at least you'll know one nice ex-one


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## LDR (May 11, 2005)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> You seem to have met three bad examples ... but remember there are about 140,000 others to choose from!!  Maybe we should have a pint sometime, then at least you'll know one nice ex-one


My mates' brother who is in the riot squad is quite young and also a bit reactionary too.  He grew up in the Welsh valleys and had a quite an aggressive streak.  He was also homophobic but so was my mate.  We no longer keep in touch because of that. 

There is also no doubt that my thoughts on the Police have been influenced by my peer group who also have had bad dealings with them.  It all works to form my prejudices.

It may be worth mentioning that I do know a few police officers in NZ and I get on well with them and I have found them decent people.  

One was our next door neighbour who used to pick me up pissed most Friday nights and drop me home.  Another was a guy I used to work with who left where we were working and joined up.  We still met up for a drink once in a while until I left for the UK.  Another is related to me via marriage I think too but I've only met him once or twice.

I appreciate that the pressures the police in NZ are under are very different to the ones in the UK which may explain the difference in attitude that I've come across.

I'd like to make it clear that I don't have a problem with the Police in principle.  I do believe they are necessary to protect and uphold society's laws.  My problem is with attitude that the police I've met in the UK seem to hold and as you said a lot of that attitude is dying out as new blood comes in.

Anyway, your posts I have always found carefully considered and informative and so I can only assume that you're not really a policeman.   A drink sounds great too. 

Back on topic.  I still feel safe in Brixton.


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## Bob (May 11, 2005)

Just an observation really - what things feel like very much depend on where you go and when. The two sides of the triangle of Brixton road and Coldharbour lane are a real pain in the arse, when the third side of Atlantic road is always pretty tranquil. It's fairly obvious that this is because the drugs tourists don't go down Atlantic road generally so it's not worthwhile for the dealers to hang out there.

And the time of the day makes a huge difference. For some reason by 6am most of the crackheads seem to have gone to wherever they go to kip - the only reason I can think of is that the women & their pimps run out of customers by that time. But at 5am (when I've been going to work for the last month) they're virtually the only people around.   

And by 6:30 it's just the honest guys carting around animal carcasses in shopping trolleys round at Atlantic road - which is lovely.


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## pooka (May 11, 2005)

*Policing Plan 2006/7: Online consultation*

Just got this in an email from the CPCG:

--------------------------------------------------
Policing Plan Consultation 

We gave details in last month's briefing and by email of the Met's
consultation exercise for the 2006/7 Policing Plan, which runs from April to
September.

The first stage involves all participants simply setting out their 'issues'
for policing london. Subsequent stages allow voting on the collated issues
drawn from all participants.* It's an interesting process to take part in,
as well as (hopefully) a chance to influence policing priorities in London.

The first stage closes on May 13th, so there is still time to register and
take part. The registration requires you to enter a field 'Organisation' but
you can enter 'Lambeth citizen' or 'CPCG Lambeth Member', for example - it's
not proscriptive.

Last year had a good Lambeth representation amongst participants, but it
would be great to improve on that. Click on the link above to take part.

-----------------------------------------------------


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## detective-boy (May 12, 2005)

LD Rudeboy said:
			
		

> Anyway, your posts I have always found carefully considered and informative and so I can only assume that you're not really a policeman.   A drink sounds great too.



No.  I was.  Really!


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## Droppin' (May 24, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm seeing and hearing of a lot more muggings and attacks around Brixton recently and am suspecting that the streets are getting more dangerous than, say, a year or two ago.
> 
> What's your opinion?
> 
> (Please note: this isn't a thread about style bars, yuppies or gentrification. It's a poll to find out whether people feel more or less safer on the streets of Brixton.)




Haven't been out much recently, however the other night I did go out to the Telegraph for the Hasselhoff schindig thing and me and a mate started proceedings in the Falcon at Clapham North.  

On the way to Telegraph we did the Landor Rd trek and past Coldharbour Lane junction and then up the hill.  We were stopped five times for a range of goodies from pills to poppers to weed.  Now, as those on some of the other forums may have noticed, I am not adverse to the odd sin, but this is the first time it has happened iso blatanly and abundantly in ages.  The old street bartering has been very quiet.

May be a coincidence?

Also, was nearly the victim of a black on white beating in Tongue and Groove recently, for (Oh my gosh!) standing next to him to get a drink from the bar and finally my girlfriend got physically and verbally abused in WH Smith's at 9am on a Thursday morning by some guy who regretted it when I came in off the street and practically beat the living shit out of him.

Basically, it does seem to be getting a bit like it was a couple of years ago.

shame!


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## pk (May 25, 2005)

layabout said:
			
		

> CX is Charing Cross isn't it? I bedded one your lot. Got drunk and stoned with him. He had a whopper an all!



Blimey!


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## IntoStella (May 25, 2005)

pk said:
			
		

> Blimey!


Amen to that.


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## Pie 1 (May 25, 2005)

Droppin' said:
			
		

> Also, was nearly the victim of a black on white beating in Tongue and Groove recently, for (Oh my gosh!) standing next to him to get a drink from the bar



There are, depresingly, quite a few similar stories concerning Tounge & Groove circulating at the moment.  



> + Droppin':
> my girlfriend got physically and verbally abused in WH Smith's at 9am on a Thursday morning by some guy who regretted it when I came in off the street and practically beat the living shit out of him.



You beat someone up in the store? If you really did than that's a bit of an over reaction IMO - they have staff  & security etc.....


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## E. Coli (May 25, 2005)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> There are, depresingly, quite a few similar stories concerning Tounge & Groove circulating at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> You beat someone up in the store? If you really did than that's a bit of an over reaction IMO - they have staff  & security etc.....




How's that an overreation?


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## Droppin' (May 25, 2005)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> There are, depresingly, quite a few similar stories concerning Tounge & Groove circulating at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> You beat someone up in the store? If you really did than that's a bit of an over reaction IMO - they have staff  & security etc.....




OK, I may have sounded braver than I was....think of 'beat the shit out of' more in the vein of 'didn't beat the shit out of'.

What really happened was that I grabbed him and threw him out on the street with a gruff finger pointing and threatening.  Why did I do this?  Well, in answer to your point, the securiity guard 'wasn't in yet' and the rest of the staff seemed quite content just staring as the scene unfolded......

According to my girlfriend (an Aussie), a typically British reaction.....we are so yellow!

Hope I sound less like I overreated?


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## detective-boy (May 26, 2005)

Droppin' said:
			
		

> What really happened was that I grabbed him and threw him out on the street with a gruff finger pointing and threatening.  Why did I do this?



It sounds like an excellent demonstration of our right to defend ourselves other if we fear an imminent assault ...  Good on yer!


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## Ducky (May 26, 2005)

*I found a gun...*

...in my garden a few weeks ago, it was loaded as well...

worryingly when the police came round they started telling us about all manner of incidents which had involved people being shot in the arm, just what i wanted to hear!


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## LDR (May 26, 2005)

Ducky said:
			
		

> ...in my garden a few weeks ago, it was loaded as well...


Now that is really fucking scary.  Imagine if a child found that.


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## Ducky (May 26, 2005)

LD Rudeboy said:
			
		

> Now that is really fucking scary.  Imagine if a child found that.



exactly...we thought it was a toy one, but then realised that they're not normally made out of metal!  SO luckily neither of us picked it up


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## detective-boy (May 26, 2005)

Ducky said:
			
		

> ...  SO luckily neither of us picked it up.



ALWAYS good advice - guns tend to go off when people fiddle with them, left lying on their own they tend to ... er ... just lie there!!


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## Bob (May 27, 2005)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> ALWAYS good advice - guns tend to go off when people fiddle with them, left lying on their own they tend to ... er ... just lie there!!



Ducky tells me that they put the gun in some sort of bullet proof bag before they tried to unload it. Regardless of my lack of need for it this is the sort of gadget I want!


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## knopf (May 27, 2005)

My housemate found a gun in our garden (Helix Gardens, to be precise   ), when I lived in Brixton, too.

My other   memory is looking out of my bedroom window at 2 in the afternoon & seeing 2 guys having a standoff, one with a gun, the other with a martial arts weapony-type thing (the one with a chain inbetween 2 bars).


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## IntoStella (May 27, 2005)

knopf said:
			
		

> My housemate found a gun in our garden (Helix Gardens, to be precise   ), when I lived in Brixton, too.
> 
> My other   memory is looking out of my bedroom window at 2 in the afternoon & seeing 2 guys having a standoff, one with a gun, the other with a martial arts weapony-type thing (the one with a chain inbetween 2 bars).


My money's on the bloke with the gun.


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## IntoStella (May 27, 2005)

Ducky said:
			
		

> exactly...we thought it was a toy one, but then realised that they're not normally made out of metal!  SO luckily neither of us picked it up


You saw that episode of Quincy the other day then about the evils of guns.   Preachy didn't come into it.


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## knopf (May 27, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> My money's on the bloke with the gun.



Mine too.   

As it was, an Orgreave-esque batallion of coppers came racing up the street in riot vans. However, since they had their sirens going, the protagonists seemed to forget their grievance, and both ran like fuck up Josephine Avenue.


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## dogmatique (May 27, 2005)

I saw that too!  And I remember it being on originally about 20 years ago!  I was seriously disturbed by the kid shooting his sister in the face if I recall correctly.


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## Bob (May 27, 2005)

IntoStella said:
			
		

> My money's on the bloke with the gun.



Yup. I've talked to a fair number of people who've practised with nunchukas (those bits of wood with chains)  and the common thing that everybody achieves while practising is hitting themselves on the head, sometimes hard enough to knock themselves out.


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## detective-boy (May 28, 2005)

Bob said:
			
		

> Ducky tells me that they put the gun in some sort of bullet proof bag before they tried to unload it. Regardless of my lack of need for it this is the sort of gadget I want!



That will be a holdall made out of Kevlar (the bullet-proof vest stuff).  They are not restricted in any way - I'm sure some Googling could find you one (they're expensive, mind!)


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## Gramsci (May 29, 2005)

jbob said:
			
		

> I see what you're getting at, Blagsta. Is it not just the simple fact that kids behave in such ways because they can get away with it? I'm not sure that that this unifying idea of 'deep underlying problems' as it seems very much like some kind of post-modern excuse that ignores any kind of self-determinism on the part of the kids themselves. It completely absolves any sort of responsibility for their actions, which I actually find a little condescending. When I shouted at older people on buses or when they were on the other side of the road, I was fully aware of what I was doing and why I was doing it - for a laugh. And, when I got older and learnt it wasn't a laugh, I stopped doing it.



   Dont blame postmodernism for this.One of the founders of Sociology Durkheim found that suicide rates-that most personal of acts-were affected by social changes in society.


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