# Atos are still doing (re)assessments despite what Gov and Press say..



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 1, 2014)

All this talk of ATOS not doing reassessments because of this or that reason are driving me insane. I was awarded ESA May 2013 after being moved from IB and was placed in support group.

I was originally told I wouldn't be reassessed for at least 12 months so imagine my surprise to get another form to fill in in mid Jan this year. I didn't do it right away so they sent me a reminder that it was due before 13th Feb, which it was, just. So imagine how thrilled, like everyone else, I was to hear all the news that they were losing their contract because they are 'unfit for purpose' etc and no-one on the benefit already would be reassessed if they sent forms back after 20th Jan.

It's all bollocks. I got a letter from Atos at start of August calling me in to be reassessed 1st Sept.(I went today but no doctor to see me so it has been put back until 17th)

Believing all the stories that had circulated I phoned them - Atos, the DWP, Welfare Rights and the TUC only to be told by all of them that I would have to go and that Atos were continuing with their contract until Aug 2015.

How can this be right/just/fair? There has been no change of circumstances. I'm not a new claimant. I'm not waiting to be moved from IB and my form was sent after the supposed Jan 20th deadline.

I wish I could just get some straight answers from someone


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2014)

Welcome to urban, sorry to hear about what's brought you here.  Best of luck with the reassessment.

You might find this thread of use, no need to read the whole thing, just read the first few pages, then skip to the end.  
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/atos-medicals-questions-answers-and-support.287181/


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 1, 2014)

Thanks Greebo but nothing there answers my questions.

1) The gov stood up in Parliament and told everyone Atos were unfit for purpose and were having their contract terminated early. They clearly aren't. They are continuing until Aug 2015.

2) The DWP leaked memo said anyone who is already in receipt of ESA were to be left alone until a new provider was found.

3)Even Atos themselves said in a statement the in line with DWP only new claimants and people moving from DLA to PIP would be called in. 

All the reports on websites and in the press had people believing Atos were finished when they clearly aren't


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 1, 2014)

It seems like the DWP decided to stop Atos from doing reassessments back in February because of the huge backlog of new claims and people moving to ESA from IB. It was described as an 'operational decision' rather than a policy decision, meaning that they could change their minds again in the future if the backlog cleared up which, if they're finding time to harass existing ESA claimants, I suppose it must have done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> All this talk of ATOS not doing reassessments because of this or that reason are driving me insane. I was awarded ESA May 2013 after being moved from IB and was placed in support group.
> 
> I was originally told I wouldn't be reassessed for at least 12 months so imagine my surprise to get another form to fill in in mid Jan this year. I didn't do it right away so they sent me a reminder that it was due before 13th Feb, which it was, just. So imagine how thrilled, like everyone else, I was to hear all the news that they were losing their contract because they are 'unfit for purpose' etc and no-one on the benefit already would be reassessed if they sent forms back after 20th Jan.
> 
> ...



welcome aboard


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> All this talk of ATOS not doing reassessments because of this or that reason are driving me insane. I was awarded ESA May 2013 after being moved from IB and was placed in support group.
> 
> I was originally told I wouldn't be reassessed for at least 12 months so imagine my surprise to get another form to fill in in mid Jan this year. I didn't do it right away so they sent me a reminder that it was due before 13th Feb, which it was, just. So imagine how thrilled, like everyone else, I was to hear all the news that they were losing their contract because they are 'unfit for purpose' etc and no-one on the benefit already would be reassessed if they sent forms back after 20th Jan.
> 
> ...



One thing that hasn't been mentioned by the government, or by the ATOSsers if I recall correctly, is the date from when their disengagement from their contract takes place.  I suspect they'll be obliged to continue providing services until the new winning bidder comes on-stream and/or their staff are TUPEd across to the new contractor.
Back in the day, I used to think "no-one can fuck up worse than the DWP". How wrong I was!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 1, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> It seems like the DWP decided to stop Atos from doing reassessments back in February because of the huge backlog of new claims and people moving to ESA from IB. It was described as an 'operational decision' rather than a policy decision, meaning that they could change their minds again in the future if the backlog cleared up which, if they're finding time to harass existing ESA claimants, I suppose it must have done.


I submitted my ESA50 in August last year (so-called "transfer" from Incapacity Benefit to ESA), and have an appointm,ent for assessment a couple of days after the OP.  If they're only dealing with ESA50s submitted over a year ago *now*, then they've still got a way to go in clearing that backlog, even if they've taken on no new assessments since Feb.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 1, 2014)

I was told by one of the Atos staff when I phoned that they are carrying on until contract was due to originally end, ie Aug 2015, so where is the early termination?

If they are still dealing with ESA50s from over a year ago why did I get seen when mine was sent in Feb this year?

Maybe I have a red flag against my name for some reason?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 1, 2014)

Moved to the Benefits forum which will probably help.


----------



## 8115 (Sep 1, 2014)

Would it be worth contacting your MP if they're likely to be at all sympathetic?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 1, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> <snip> Maybe I have a red flag against my name for some reason?


Dinnae sweat it - this is probably more cock up than conspiracy.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 1, 2014)

((thanks for redirect FridgeMagnet..))



8115 said:


> Would it be worth contacting your MP if they're likely to be at all sympathetic?



My MP is a waste of space and a closet Tory in disguise - so called Poverty Tzar Labours Frank Field


----------



## 8115 (Sep 1, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> ((thanks for redirect FridgeMagnet..))
> 
> 
> 
> My MP is a waste of space and a closet Tory in disguise - so called Poverty Tzar Labours Frank Field


Yeah, might not be the man for the job.


----------



## andysays (Sep 1, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> It seems like the DWP decided to stop Atos from doing reassessments back in February because of the huge backlog of new claims and people moving to ESA from IB. It was described as an 'operational decision' rather than a policy decision, meaning that they could change their minds again in the future if the backlog cleared up which, if they're finding time to harass existing ESA claimants, I suppose it must have done.



Not sure if the backlog of new claims has been cleared up - I started a new claim for ESA almost exactly a year ago and have yet to hear anything from DWP/ATOS/anyone else about being assessed.

And welcome Chris.H.1961


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 1, 2014)

Sounds like ATOS' method for prioritising their workload involves a dartboard and a blindfold.

Of course there could be some areas where the backlog is better or worse than others. If the ATOS office in Glasgow is ten thousand claims behind schedule they can't exactly phone the Guildford office and get them to do the assesments instead. The OP might just be unfortunate enough to live in a place where the local ATOS people have got enough spare time on their hands to do repeat assesments.

What sort of area do you live in Chris.H.1961 ? Might be worth looking to see if disability benefit claims are lower than average near where you live, in which case they're maybe just assessing you over and over again to create busy work for themselves and meet some target or whatever.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 1, 2014)

You may have a point there SF, though I would have thought where I am it would have been in one of the high claims areas(if you believe certain parts of the media). I'm from Birkenhead - near Liverpool


----------



## Pingu (Sep 2, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> You may have a point there SF, though I would have thought where I am it would have been in one of the high claims areas(if you believe certain parts of the media). I'm from Birkenhead - near Liverpool



ATOS round here (i live not too far from you) are seemingly quite bad but sadly quick...

know of a few people who have fallen foul of them including a mate who has half a lung had a heart attack plus various other bits who apparently is fit for work...

however you may get lucky and get the person who another mate nearly threw out of a 2nd floor window when he was told that PTSD was an "imaginary illness"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> You may have a point there SF, though I would have thought where I am it would have been in one of the high claims areas(if you believe certain parts of the media). I'm from Birkenhead - near Liverpool



Birkenhead?
Woollyback!!! 

Having had a scout around since my last reply, it seems that waiting times vary by area, with the south-east and bits of the north-west having the ropiest waiting times


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2014)

Pingu said:


> ATOS round here (i live not too far from you) are seemingly quite bad but sadly quick...
> 
> know of a few people who have fallen foul of them including a mate who has half a lung had a heart attack plus various other bits who apparently is fit for work...
> 
> however you may get lucky and get the person who another mate nearly threw out of a 2nd floor window when he was told that PTSD was an "imaginary illness"



They're even more useless than the old system (helped by their crap decision-making program).  They don't seem to be able to handle any sort of fluctuating health problem, or people with multiple health issues. I'm *so* looking forward to my assessment!


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 2, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> They're even more useless than the old system (helped by their crap decision-making program).  They don't seem to be able to handle any sort of fluctuating health problem, or people with multiple health issues. I'm *so* looking forward to my assessment!



Never understood why we get called woollybacks, considering we are closer to Liverpool than we are to the sheep infested hillsides of Wales? but whatever. Sticks n stones 

If any of the Political Parties wanted to really help sick/disabled people they would listen to and use genuinely qualified members of the medical profession instead of data entry drones. But we all know whoever is in power it's about cutting pennies from the already poor


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 2, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> Never understood why we get called woollybacks, considering we are closer to Liverpool than we are to the sheep infested hillsides of Wales? but whatever. Sticks n stones



My wife's a woollyback too.  I only bring it up 'cos it annoys her! 



> If any of the Political Parties wanted to really help sick/disabled people they would listen to and use genuinely qualified members of the medical profession instead of data entry drones. But we all know whoever is in power it's about cutting pennies from the already poor



To be fair, even back when they had only doctors doing Incapacity Benefit and DLA assessments, some of them were fucking shocking.  I had one gibbering cretin who came to do a DLA assessment, was here for 15 minutes, couldn't get out the door fast enough, and then basically wrote a load of bullshit *AND* scrawled a signature that wasn't mine onto the form to say I'd read it through and agreed with it!
But yeah, since New Labour's "Benefits Integrity Project", all "reform" has been along the lines of saving money and punishing people for being ill.  It doesn't matter if we got fucked up because we worked too hard, got injured doing our job, or got exposed to noxious crap at work - we're still scroungers to those gold-plated tossers in Parliament, most of whom wouldn't be able to manage a days-worth of manual work if their life depended on it.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 2, 2014)

What I meant was why the F can't they accept the findings of your own GP/Specialist? They are the ones who know you best and how your illness/disability impacts on your life. 

I fully accept some people play the system and need to be weeded out, just like 'some MPs fiddle their exs' but tarring everyone with the same brush is cruel.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 3, 2014)

Well, it's almost 4.30am as I start this, and so after another wonderfully long -3hr- twice disturbed attempt to sleep I thought I'd update you with where things stand at the moment, and what my intentions are.

My reassessment was originally scheduled for 27th Aug but they expected me to go to a centre miles away from where I live so I phoned them and demanded a change of venue as there is a perfectly adequate one 800 metres from where I live. They rearranged it for Mon 1st Sept only for me to be sent away after 1/2hr because there was no doctor to see me. Unfortunately it's only a temporary reprieve as I now have to go again on the 17th Sept.

I'm going to use this extra time getting in contact with my local councilor(?) and maybe even my MP and complain about what I put in my original post, but also about what went on on Mon 1st.

Having got a taxi to the Medical Centre - inside the job centre - I was forced to wait outside in the pissing down rain for 10 mins with nowhere to sit until one of the G4S goons opened the door I was waiting by only to tell me I'd have to use the main entrance, even though the sign on the main entrance door said anyone wanting ATOS had to wait where I was.

I was first to give my info in in the waiting area followed by 5 other people who all got called in to see someone before me. After about 20mins past my appointment time I asked why everyone else was being called before me. 'That's just the way it goes lad' - G4S goon no2

Eventually the woman who was seeing me called me and introduced herself as (xx) who then only after I questioned her authority/skill to assess me agreed I should be seeing a Doctor. Guess what? No doctor there that day? The app was then rearranged for the 17th sept and I was sent on my way.

WTF?? 5 others had been called to see people and not one of them was being seen by a Doctor??

It is wrong on so many levels. Not least of which is people who being diagnosed for illness/diabillity etc should be seen by a Doctor not a data entry robot who's favourite saying is  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





My first point of call later today will be phoning the DWP to tell them I intend to raise a complaint, and depending on what they say I will take it further...

update: As far as DWP are concerned the ball had started rolling the minute my form was sent to me ((on 14th Jan so I was told after speaking to the most senior of 4 members of staff)) so I'm not exempt via that ruling. They can also, if they see fit, call people in every week without having to justify themselves. They said if I refuse to attend ((I'm unwell not stupid)) they will stop my benefit.

As for what went on on Mon they said 'Not our problem. Take it up with ATOS'


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 4, 2014)

Hello fellow woollyback! Chris.H.1961  we must be the same age too.

Really sorry to hear they are mucking you about. Good luck with the complaint, and do keep complaining. I was accompaning someone to an ATOS assessment (she could not go on her own and I'd booked time off work to go) that was cancelled twice, at very short notice and I managed to get my loss of earnings re embursed from ATOS together with an apology for the distress to her. It was all ok in the end and she is still in support group.

Really recomend you don't try to go alone  - even if you can struggle there on your own - don't struggle - take some help -  even if only for moral support and more importantly to be a witness. I found lots of really useful links on http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/atos-medicals-questions-answers-and-support.287181/  

Wishing you all the best


----------



## Libertad (Sep 4, 2014)

friendofdorothy 's post has appeared before the op's last post which was posted yesterday morning.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 4, 2014)

Libertad said:


> friendofdorothy 's post has appeared before the op's last post which was posted yesterday morning.


That's weird. His post was on screen when I posted that.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 4, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> That's weird. His post was on screen when I posted that.



Hi FoD, I appreciate the thoughts but there's not much more I can do. 

My local Councilor said he doesn't think I have enough cause to complain to my MP. And as you can see from my last message the DWP said they sent the forms prior to Jan 20th and all ATOS say is they only assess people DWP send them. ATOS btw proved yet again today that they are unfit for purpose, by sending me a new date at the wrong centre, again.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 4, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> Hi FoD, I appreciate the thoughts but there's not much more I can do.
> 
> My local Councilor said he doesn't think I have enough cause to complain to my MP. And as you can see from my last message the DWP said they sent the forms prior to Jan 20th and all ATOS say is they only assess people DWP send them. ATOS btw proved yet again today that they are unfit for purpose, by sending me a new date at the wrong centre, again.


Hang on in there and don't let them wear you down, and do keep on insisting that you see a doc for the assessment if your condition requires it. 

Must say I thought media hype about ATOS losing the contract meant it would happen soon - didn't realise they could go on so long. What was all that rubbish about them being in crisis and unable to provide enough staff to do assessments?  Anyone who knows anyone who has suffered these useless 'medicals' know how shit ATOS is - shame most of the public has no idea. If figures for recall vary around the country might it be something local news/media would be interested in?


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 4, 2014)

friendofdorothy, post: 13379884, member: 60326"]Hang on in there and don't let them wear you down, and do keep on insisting that you see a doc for the assessment if your condition requires it.

Oh Don't worry about that, I am doing. That's why Mon 1st was ended abruptly as there was no Doc there that day to see me(or anyone for that matter)

Tried to contact a couple of newspapers to tell them they had their facts wrong over stories they printed but have so far been ignored.

And I still can't get an adequate answer as to why the head honcho's of DWP, having stood up in parliament and said ATOS were unfit for purpose and were having their contract terminated early, are allowing them to continue


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 5, 2014)

After another restless night I have decided as a last resort to email my MP. Despite our differences of opinion in the past I feel as my MP he has a duty to help in whatever way he can. Not sure it will do any good, but got nothing to lose


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 5, 2014)

wishing you all the strength you need x


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 6, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> wishing you all the strength you need x



Thanks FoD.

I may be setting myself up for a whole bunch of trouble by constantly questioning ATOS and the DWP's decisions/actions etc, but I just don't feel like sitting back and accepting their b/s anymore.


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 7, 2014)

Nah, you're assuming a level of organisation and ability that doesn't really exist - unless the individual doctor/advisor remembers you, it won't make any difference - in my experience it tended to result in 'Oh, there's that pain in the arse claimant, better double check it.'  I used to work for DWP, left partly as a result of the complete ignoring of the first Harrington review.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 7, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> ...  I used to work for DWP, left partly as a result of the complete ignoring of the first Harrington review.


I was just briefly reading up what the Harrington review was, saw lots of links to 2012 and calls 'take the urgent action' - has anything changed at all?


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 7, 2014)

I see the usual myths are surfacing 

1. all assessments  are undertaken by clinicians, although not all of them are Medical Practitioners -  there are Nurses, Physios , OTs and  a few Paramedics 

2. all assessors  are fully  registered with the appropriate  regulators (GMC for Medical Practitioners, NMC for Nurses, HCPC for physio / OT / paramedic) and have a licence to practice .  Nurses, Physios and OTs  do health and ADL assessments from day 1 week one of their training and are probably more expert at this  than  Doctor,   the picture with Paramedics is less clear  - but  as more and more of them have either done Uni pre-reg courses or been encouraged to do  fully funded   op up to dipHE or degree level from the IHCD  course 

2a. I don't know aobut ATOS  but the  Capita  contract for the PIP assessors recruitment material states it will not   process  applications from  anyone with any  current  Fitness to Practice sanction  - which in some cases could be  4 years old and refer to a 6 year old  incident. (possibly a knee jerk reaction  to some of the bullshit  that people have come out with  in respect of the staff used by  ATOS ?  i could understand it  if they said no to people whose FtP sanction prevented them from working  unsupervised  for  a significant period  but other FtP sanctions or CoPOrders would make little or no difference )

3. These assessments whether ESA or PIP  do not  attempt to challenge diagnosis  and  being found fit to work or placed i n the support group for  for ESA has sweet fanny adams  to do with  diagnosis  or the validity of it. 

3a.  fit to work  does not necessarily mean fit to return to a previously held  role  - in   the none benefits world of disability  assessment / occupational health / access to work  this seems to be well understood  -  it's also well understood by those who  have had  decent rehab / treatment ... 

4. The  level of shit stirring and  party political bile ( forgetting that the changes  were in motion before the 2010 GE)  hasn't helped  recruiting   especially amopng those who might have  wantred to move to avoid the hassle and abuse that frontline staff  get  day in day out anyway.


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 7, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> What I meant was why the F can't they accept the findings of your own GP/Specialist? They are the ones who know you best and how your illness/disability impacts on your life.
> 
> I fully accept some people play the system and need to be weeded out, just like 'some MPs fiddle their exs' but tarring everyone with the same brush is cruel.



Most consultants don't know Jacques Faeces about how   an illness or disability affects  someone's daily life , thopse that do are relying on second and thrid  hand information in MDT   unless you are really lucky  and like some ofthe specialist  tertiary rehab units  Patients have regualr case conferences with the MDT and  their significant others . 

What  people tell their consultants and what   a Nurse, Physio or OT  ( or Doctor or Paramedic after  extra additional training) will be able to find  from a structured assessment is rather different. 

in an ideal world the  assessments would be a 2-3 day residential  - given the  assessment for top -up rehab   admissions  when i worked in a tertiary  centre was a full day  - and that was with patients we ( as a service)  knew


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 8, 2014)

"zippyRN, post: 13386134, member: 22307 "I see the usual myths are surfacing''

You may not agree with what's being discussed here, but there is nothing 'Mythical' about what I've said in this thread.

The so-called Health Care Professionals may have qualifications coming out of their ears, but they are nothing more than DWP approved data entry robots who's sole purpose has little if anything to do with how ill you are or how bad things are on a daily basis, and more to do with aiding and assisting the DWP in their endless quest to slash/stop your benefit.

Who would you say has a more intimate knowledge of how your illness/disability effects you? your GP/Consultant who you see regularly? or someone basing their findings on a single 20/30min observation?


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 8, 2014)

And still the diagnodis fallacy persists.

1.These assessments are not about Diagnosis.

2. You and many others deliberately chose to mis understand and mis represent the purpose of the assessments.

3. Doctors are not superior to other HCPs, however those who chose to ignore this seem to belueve that Doctors are some how in charge of other HCPs.


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 8, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> I was just briefly reading up what the Harrington review was, saw lots of links to 2012 and calls 'take the urgent action' - has anything changed at all?



Nah, not really.  Friend of mine's working on the new version (Harrington's left now, after 3 reviews), and it's same old, same old.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 8, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> And still the diagnodis fallacy persists.
> 
> 1.These assessments are not about Diagnosis.
> 
> ...



Just for the record; 

1. I don't believe I or any of others have claimed the assessments are about a 'diagnosis'. 

2. I don't believe I or anyone else has misunderstood or misrepresented anything. 

3. I have never claimed Doctors/GP's/Consultants are superior to other HCP's. I said they were better placed to know how your illness/disability effects your life on a day by day basis. Big difference!!

If you wish to read a thread and make-believe there are things there that aren't, feel free. 

Personally I think you should get a life


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 8, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> 4. The  level of shit stirring and  party political bile ( forgetting that the changes  were in motion before the 2010 GE)  hasn't helped  recruiting   especially amopng those who might have  wantred to move to avoid the hassle and abuse that frontline staff  get  day in day out anyway.



Good.  I'm currently helping a good friend challenge a DWP decision to remove his sickness benefit, following an ATOS assessment so flawed it would almost be funny if it weren't so sad.  The assessor had neither relevant qualifications nor professional experience, and his report was littered with inaccuracies, unsupported assumptions and major issues not even addressed.  It was completely worthless, and unsurprisingly the ensuing DWP decision was wrong.  in my view he acted unethically and unprofessionally, and once the whole sorry farce is over I shall be writing to his professional body and seeking other (legal!) ways to cause him trouble if possible.  These people are ruining lives: they deserve to face the consequences.  Best of luck to the OP and everyone else seeking to challenge this vicious and failed assessment system.


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 9, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> Good.  I'm currently helping a good friend challenge a DWP decision to remove his sickness benefit, following an ATOS assessment so flawed it would almost be funny if it weren't so sad.  The assessor had neither relevant qualifications nor professional experience, and his report was littered with inaccuracies, unsupported assumptions and major issues not even addressed.  It was completely worthless, and unsurprisingly the ensuing DWP decision was wrong.  in my view he acted unethically and unprofessionally, and once the whole sorry farce is over I shall be writing to his professional body and seeking other (legal!) ways to cause him trouble if possible.  These people are ruining lives: they deserve to face the consequences.  Best of luck to the OP and everyone else seeking to challenge this vicious and failed assessment system.



 On what basis  do you make your assertion that the  assessor does not haver a  relevant professional qualification ? 

 with their name and   profession a of primary registration you  can quite easilty check if they are registered  and  in the case of Nurses usually which Branch  - although the new  NMC register is  less clear than the Old one and the UKCC and GNC before .

In the case of medical practitioners  you can see if they  hold a CCST  or equivalent   or are a Fully Qualified GP.

all the assessors	have to undertake  the specified  training  on the DA processes and system 

In terms of experience what do you consider to be lacking  ? or is this onece again a mis understanding of the purpose of the these assessments and application o f the diagnosis fallacy - these  assessments are diagnosis independent  -  what your diagnosisactually is is completely irrelevant  these assessments are about  how  any  and all conditions you have affect ADLs or  ability to undertake ANY work  ( rather than your chosen work or  a job you had before the conditions  manifested)

 inaccurate  assessments   area matter for appeal 

practice which you can prove fell below the standards of the reasonable Practitioner  would be grounds for a complaint to the relevant professional regulator. 

 but while people labour on  with the diagnosis fallacy  and the presumption that  Doctors are better than others and an accurate  assessment will only be  achieved by someone who has specialised in your particular  condition, there are going to be a  lot of people  gettign angry  througfh	not  understanding the  process because of boundaries they themselves have put up. 

interestingly  this  is a behaviour  which is seen in relation to  change processes in  all settings - just in other settings   disposal or termination of the  resistant  individuals  is far more acceptable ...


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 9, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> On what basis  do you make your assertion that the  assessor does not haver a  relevant professional qualification ?
> 
> with their name and   profession a of primary registration you  can quite easilty check if they are registered  and  in the case of Nurses usually which Branch  - although the new  NMC register is  less clear than the Old one and the UKCC and GNC before .
> 
> ...



Yawn, Yawn, Yawn....

1. The only one I can see who thinks people go to these assessments hoping to get a diagnosis of their illness is you.

2. Why, if as you claim, HCP's are just as - if not more - qualified than some Doctors to carry out these assessments have I been sent away during a WCA twice as there was no Doctor available to see me? Plenty of so-called HCP's yet none of them felt they could carry out a fair assessment. 

((Have you ever been on the receiving end of a WCA by ATOS or another firm? Or do you, as I suspect, work for one of those firms carrying out the assessments?))

3. If you bother doing some research, a high percentage of ATOS assessments are/were so inaccurate they got/get overturned at appeal. That's why the GOV and DWP (a) changed the law and put numerous obsticles in the way to deter anyone wishing to appeal, and (b) when that failed to have the desired impact they decided ATOS - and thereby all of their HCP's - were clearly unfit for purpose. Hence the early termination of their contract.

Now please do me a favour and go annoy someone else. You are boring me.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 9, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> In terms of experience what do you consider to be lacking  ? or is this onece again a mis understanding of the purpose of the these assessments and application o f the diagnosis fallacy - these  assessments are diagnosis independent  -  what your diagnosisactually is is completely irrelevant  these assessments are about  how  any  and all conditions you have affect ADLs or  ability to undertake ANY work  ( rather than your chosen work or  a job you had before the conditions  manifested)
> 
> ...



Just to set the record straight zippermouth..

''The face to face assessment is specifically designed to find out about how your illness or disability affects you in your everyday life'' 

A direct quote from the notes sheet 'About your face to face assessment' aka WCA AL1C that gets sent with your appointment letter


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 9, 2014)

Well that was a pleasant surprise. Just had a look in my email inbox and have received a response from my MP. 

He says he will take up with ATOS the mismanagement of my latest WCA, and asked if I'd claimed travel ex's.

My reply:

ATOS, as far as I know, will reimburse travel costs if applicable, but if you have to get a taxi you need a covering letter from your GP stating why walking or public transport is out of the question. 

I only live about 800 yards from xxx, but am unable to walk anywhere near that distance without being breathless and in pain. And to be honest, the £3.50 taxi fare works out a lot cheaper than getting GP to write a letter.

My main 'gripe' is more about the DWP continuing to forward people for reassessment despite supposedly terminating ATOS contract because they are unfit for purpose. 

How is it in any way just/fair for the GOV and DWP to allow a company they have no faith in whatsoever to continue assessing people? It clearly demonstrates the Tories hatred of the welfare state and their contempt for those of us who are part of it


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 9, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> On what basis  do you make your assertion that the  assessor does not haver a  relevant professional qualification ?



A physiotherapist is not qualified to make a judgement on mental health issues.  Healthcare is a complex and specialised field: lumping all of its practitioners in together and expecting them to tackle all issues that come their way is like asking a professor of English literature to peer review a paper in particle physics.



> all the assessors	have to undertake  the specified  training  on the DA processes and system



A few days' training in the assessment system is not sufficient, even if the training is of high quality, which I very much doubt it is.



> In terms of experience what do you consider to be lacking  ? or is this onece again a mis understanding of the purpose of the these assessments and application o f the diagnosis fallacy - these  assessments are diagnosis independent  -  what your diagnosisactually is is completely irrelevant  these assessments are about  how  any  and all conditions you have affect ADLs or  ability to undertake ANY work  ( rather than your chosen work or  a job you had before the conditions  manifested)



I know that.  The point is that the assessments do not - either in this case or many others - give an accurate reflection of how serious someone's condition is or what impact it has on their life and ability to work.  Especially when they're conducted by someone whose professional expertise and qualifications are completely irrelevant, and especially when they're conducted as sloppily as this one.



> inaccurate  assessments   area matter for appeal
> 
> practice which you can prove fell below the standards of the reasonable Practitioner  would be grounds for a complaint to the relevant professional regulator.



As I said before, the assessment was a farce and the report was not worth the paper it was written on.  It was littered with errors.  An appeal is currently going through, which I am confident we will win.  Afterwards, I intend complaining to all of the relevant regulatory bodies about the total lack of professionalism shown by both the 'healthcare professional' and DWP staff, and sending full details  of the case to all relevant campaigning organisations and to the newspapers. 



> but while people labour on  with the diagnosis fallacy  and the presumption that  Doctors are better than others and an accurate  assessment will only be  achieved by someone who has specialised in your particular  condition, there are going to be a  lot of people  gettign angry  througfh	not  understanding the  process because of boundaries they themselves have put up.
> 
> interestingly  this  is a behaviour  which is seen in relation to  change processes in  all settings - just in other settings   disposal or termination of the  resistant  individuals  is far more acceptable ...



I understand the process perfectly well, thank you.  I'm angry because it's a system that, even when it works as intended, is not fit for purpose, and because the resulting reports on individuals' conditions have led to a string of decisions by the DWP that have caused very real hardship to vulnerable people.

*edit*  You appear to be trying to defend the system.  Why is this, I wonder?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 9, 2014)

nobody defends atos that hard unless they work for them and are lying to themselves so they can look themselves in the eye when shaving of a morn.

because lets face it, working for atos isn't far off scabbing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 9, 2014)

anyway I'm waiting for my appointment now, having sent off the form. I'm not bricking it or anything because its a MH issue and given these people are kicking claimants out of wheelchairs and expecting people to work under chemo treatments   then I've got no hope of a result, will swing it on the appeal though, something like 70& of cases were getting overturned on appeal a couple of years back. \useless cunts exist only to nick money that should be paying for peoples care.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> anyway I'm waiting for my appointment now, having sent off the form. I'm not bricking it or anything because its a MH issue and given these people are kicking claimants out of wheelchairs and expecting people to work under chemo treatments   then I've got no hope of a result, will swing it on the appeal though, something like 70& of cases were getting overturned on appeal a couple of years back. \useless cunts exist only to nick money that should be paying for peoples care.



This is true.  The proportion of MH cases being overturned on appeal is sky high, and it's one reason why a court ruled last year that ATOS assessments disadvantage those with mental health conditions.  Needless to say, the government is dragging the whole business with appeals for as long as it can, so nothing will change any time soon.  It's another indication, though, that the system simply does not work.

One thing with appeals, though: don't expect them to happen quickly.  We heard last week that you can expect to wait 27 weeks for an appeal hearing.


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 9, 2014)

Just FYI - it's not 70% of cases getting overturned, it was 70% of cases that made it to final appeal that got overturned.  By the time you take into account churn (people off-flow because they had a temporary condition and have gone back to JSA and it's just not worth it), ruling out early cases with no grounds for appeal (small percentage), and the sheer number of people who just _give up because it's made so bloody difficult to get to an appeal_, the rate's more like 30%.  If you can stay the course (and remember it might take a year) you have a good chance of winning, but it's exhausting, and in the meantime you have to be compliant with the WRAG (presuming that's what you get put in) regime of looking for work, yadda, yadda.  

Edit: Per Roadkill's comment - 27 weeks is, iirc, the median time to appeal.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> anyway I'm waiting for my appointment now, having sent off the form. I'm not bricking it or anything because its a MH issue and given these people are kicking claimants out of wheelchairs and expecting people to work under chemo treatments   then I've got no hope of a result, will swing it on the appeal though, something like 70& of cases were getting overturned on appeal a couple of years back. \useless cunts exist only to nick money that should be paying for peoples care.



Out of the 4 I've had so far I've felt apprehensive going to all of them. 

Luckily I was okay 3 times and only had to appeal once while on IB, but unlike now - heard rumours of it taking 12months or more - it was all sorted out in a few months. This was before the bedroom tax so even though my money was cut I knew I was safe from the threat of getting into arrears and possible eviction.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 9, 2014)

iamwithnail very true, sadly.  The number of hurdles that are thrown in the way of people trying to appeal, the conflicting information you get and the sheer length of time it takes to get an appeal hearing all mean that a lot of cases don't make it that far.  Moreover, a lot of the sources of advice have been shut down or shrunk back.  Round here, for example, the Citizens' Advice Bureau is so overstretched that people wait weeks, even months, for advice on benefit cases.  In other words, what they've done is to set up a completely dysfunctional system for assessing the needs of the sick and vulnerable, and then made it as difficult as possible to challenge the nonsensical decisions that ensue.  Welcome to Cameron's Britain!


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 9, 2014)

Tbf, most of it was put in place under Labour, just more proof you can't slide a credit-card filled with debt between the main parties. Good luck DotCommunist - hope it goes well. (Probably the wrong word, but still.)


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 9, 2014)

cheers, I'm not going to let it stress me, cos thats not helping with existing shit etc.

I've been following these bastards for years (alongside other private companies infesting pub sec) So I'm well briefed on how shit they are


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 9, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> Tbf, most of it was put in place under Labour, just more proof you can't slide a credit-card filled with debt between the main parties.



This is true, but the Coalition has expanded the system massively, especially in terms of introducing reassessments.  Just another example of a government taking up one of its predecessor's worst ideas and turning it into a major policy.


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 9, 2014)

That's not quite true, particularly about the reassessments.  This was all timetabled from the Welfare Reform Act 2007 (which the conservatives mostly voted for) - new flow first, then all of the existing IB cases would be migrated to ESA over time.  The reassessments plan (I"m assuming you mean the reassessment of IB to ESA here, as ESA always had periodic reassessment built in) has been around for a long time, since before the legislation was passed. DWP's change requests to systems take ~3 years to go through in most cases, so there's an incredible lag.  Here's a *review* of the Major Projects Authority review, which took place in Aug 2007, the MPA review was the previous year. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmworpen/1203i/1203we02.htm


----------



## Greebo (Sep 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> anyway I'm waiting for my appointment now, having sent off the form. <snip>


Best of luck DC, although by rights luck really should have nothing to do with getting a benefit which you need.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> because lets face it, working for atos isn't far off scabbing.



Worse than scabbing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:
			
		

> nobody defends atos that hard unless they work for them and are lying to themselves so they can look themselves in the eye when shaving of a morn.
> 
> because lets face it, working for atos isn't far off scabbing.


TBF,. Zippy has shown hiimself to be a partisan arse on this and related subjects before.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 9, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> That's not quite true, particularly about the reassessments.  This was all timetabled from the Welfare Reform Act 2007 (which the conservatives mostly voted for) - new flow first, then all of the existing IB cases would be migrated to ESA over time.  The reassessments plan (I"m assuming you mean the reassessment of IB to ESA here, as ESA always had periodic reassessment built in) has been around for a long time, since before the legislation was passed. DWP's change requests to systems take ~3 years to go through in most cases, so there's an incredible lag.  Here's a *review* of the Major Projects Authority review, which took place in Aug 2007, the MPA review was the previous year. http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmworpen/1203i/1203we02.htm



Oh aye, Labour were cunts about it too, and a lot of this comes from the previous government.  That doesn't let the current bunch of scumbags off the hook, though, especially since it's under them that the appeals system has become so much worse.


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 10, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> nobody defends atos that hard unless they work for them and are lying to themselves so they can look themselves in the eye when shaving of a morn.
> 
> because lets face it, working for atos isn't far off scabbing.




 there's some presumptive twats on here,. but then again it's par for the course with Urban ... 

No i don't work  for ATOS   as my own health, personal and professional Issues have  kept me out of clinical practice for the past 2 years.  I don't work for  Capita  either  ( see previous post  aobut the  fact Capita  don;t want anyone with any  history of  of referral to a professional regulator working for them - no doubt because of the utter shite spouted by the antis aobut  people who were struck off working as DA for ATOS ). 

it saeems there are two sides in chronic   condition management  on one side there are the majority  of health professionals and an overall minority of patients / service users  ( veery  variable depending on condition) who  work for the normalisation  and integration of  people  with diabailities and chronic conditions  and work o nthe basis of maximising independence and  pushing  effective   disease management and rehab  situations , on the other is a minority of	of either  ridciulously soppoy or party political motivated Health professionals and various groups of  people with chronic conditions, some   drawing on political ideologies, some drawing on the magic bullet woo  of the various 'truthers'   with regard to some ci#onditions and others   who  have a complete  disconnect  between the phyical and  mental  somatic  aspects o f their condition and in doing so fail to help themselves  and  becasome agressive and insulting to  anyone who doesn;t  share their pity and give them sympathy .  Sympathy is  an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.


----------



## Celt (Sep 10, 2014)

The fact that this is happening terrifies me.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 10, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> and  becasome agressive and insulting to  anyone who doesn;t  share their pity and give them sympathy .  Sympathy is  an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.



1) I don't think anyone has been particularly aggressive or insulting towards you. (but I guess you do have a habit of reading what isn't there don't you)

2) No-one has asked for pity or sympathy as far as I'm aware. 

3) If you feel that way about Urban, why are you here?


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

indeed, it seems that the only person straight out the gates with a 'twat' is zippy himself


----------



## Greebo (Sep 10, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> indeed, it seems that the only person straight out the gates with a 'twat' is zippy himself


I can only wish that zippyRN had their fingers zipped shut anound their genitals so that they couldn't post on this thread.  IMHO their contributions are neither use nor ornament.


----------



## felixthecat (Sep 10, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> it saeems there are two sides in chronic   condition management  on one side there are the majority  of health professionals and an overall minority of patients / service users  ( veery  variable depending on condition) who  work for the normalisation  and integration of  people  with diabailities and chronic conditions  and work o nthe basis of maximising independence and  pushing  effective   disease management and rehab  situations , on the other is a minority of    of either  ridciulously soppoy or party political motivated Health professionals and various groups of  people with chronic conditions, some   drawing on political ideologies, some drawing on the magic bullet woo  of the various 'truthers'   with regard to some ci#onditions and others   who  have a complete  disconnect  between the phyical and  mental  somatic  aspects o f their condition and in doing so fail to help themselves  and  becasome agressive and insulting to  anyone who doesn;t  share their pity and give them sympathy .  Sympathy is  an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.



What complete bollocks. It's quite fortunate you are not in clinical practice if that is your opinion of the majority of those with chronic diseases. 

What's the betting it's never been your speciality anyway?


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Sep 10, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Sympathy is  an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.


With that attitude I'm pleased that you're no longer practising. Callous prick.


----------



## andysays (Sep 10, 2014)

Greebo said:


> I can only wish that zippyRN had their fingers zipped shut anound their genitals so that they couldn't post on this thread.  IMHO their contributions are neither use nor ornament.



If it's any help, I find that if you imagine their posts spoken in the voice of their namesake and avatar they are quite amusing, though they still have little value as contributions to a discussion.


----------



## felixthecat (Sep 10, 2014)

ATOS  is still heavily recruiting for 'disability analysts' - as found in my inbox yesterday.......

"Dear Felixthecat
On behalf of Atos healthcare, I write with information regarding local employment and opportunities for Physiotherapists. We have interview availability for just two weeks which marks the last availability for the October training intake.

sjb medical is the only specialist medical recruitment partner for Disability Analyst clinical opportunities across the UK. This email sets out to provide further introduction to Atos Healthcare, the role of Disability Analyst and offers an invitation for your enquiry or application.

These roles offer a comprehensive 21 day training course that is fully paid for and University accredited, with the flexibility to work on either a full or part time basis upon completion of training.  Full time hours are Monday to Friday 9am – 5pm with all bank holidays off, and part time vacancies from just 3 days a week you will no longer have to work weekends!

·		 £32,000 or £34,000 starting salary
·		 Monday to Friday 9 to 5 with all bank holidays off
·		 Excellent benefits package including
o   Private medical insurance
o   25 days’ annual leave (plus 8 UK bank holidays)
o   HCPC fee reimbursement
o   Access to market leading stakeholder pension scheme
·		 Over 150 offices throughout the UK

To apply, refer or for further information

Email your CV to jobs@sjbmedical.com
Call 020 7832 1980
Visit www.sjbmedical.com


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

32k a year to tell sick people why they can't have 12 n half


----------



## felixthecat (Sep 10, 2014)

Btw - the salary is NHS analogue rates. Thats the normal salary for mid-increment band six.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 10, 2014)

I guess that must be what someone's soul is worth these days


----------



## Libertad (Sep 10, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> No i don't work  for ATOS   as my own health, personal and professional Issues have  kept me out of clinical practice for the past 2 years.  I don't work for  Capita  either  ( see previous post  aobut the  fact Capita  don;t want anyone with any  history of  of referral to a professional regulator working for them - no doubt because of the utter shite spouted by the antis aobut  people who were struck off working as DA for ATOS ).



Have you been referred to a professional regulator then? There's a surprise.



zippyRN said:


> Sympathy is an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.



Fuck off you cunt.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> there's some presumptive twats on here,. but then again it's par for the course with Urban ...
> 
> No i don't work  for ATOS   as my own health, personal and professional Issues have  kept me out of clinical practice for the past 2 years.  I don't work for  Capita  either  ( see previous post  aobut the  fact Capita  don;t want anyone with any  history of  of referral to a professional regulator working for them - no doubt because of the utter shite spouted by the antis aobut  people who were struck off working as DA for ATOS ).
> 
> it saeems there are two sides in chronic   condition management  on one side there are the majority  of health professionals and an overall minority of patients / service users  ( veery  variable depending on condition) who  work for the normalisation  and integration of  people  with diabailities and chronic conditions  and work o nthe basis of maximising independence and  pushing  effective   disease management and rehab  situations , on the other is a minority of	of either  ridciulously soppoy or party political motivated Health professionals and various groups of  people with chronic conditions, some   drawing on political ideologies, some drawing on the magic bullet woo  of the various 'truthers'   with regard to some ci#onditions and others   who  have a complete  disconnect  between the phyical and  mental  somatic  aspects o f their condition and in doing so fail to help themselves  and  becasome agressive and insulting to  anyone who doesn;t  share their pity and give them sympathy .  Sympathy is  an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.



Oh bollocks.  Yes, there probably are some 'presumptive twats' here - that's the internet for you.  But there's also one person who seems to be bending over backwards to defend a system that is completely unfit for purpose and has a long and well publicised track record of finding people fit to work when they manifestly are not; a system that uses people to assess conditions of which they have neither knowledge nor professional experience, and a system which, in the opinion of the Upper Tribunal, is especially disadvantageous to people with mental health conditions.  That has precisely fuck all to do with soppy sentimentalism or political ideology, and everything to do with very well justified frustration at something that simply doesn't work.

Now, either deal with the points people have raised, or if you don't like being asked to do so, go away.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 10, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> Oh bollocks.  Yes, there probably are some 'presumptive twats' here - that's the internet for you.  But there's also one person who seems to be bending over backwards to defend a system that is completely unfit for purpose and has a long and well publicised track record of finding people fit to work when they manifestly are not; a system that uses people to assess conditions of which they have neither knowledge nor professional experience, and a system which, in the opinion of the Upper Tribunal, is especially disadvantageous to people with mental health conditions.  That has precisely fuck all to do with soppy sentimentalism or political ideology, and everything to do with very well justified frustration at something that simply doesn't work.
> 
> Now, either deal with the points people have raised, or if you don't like being asked to do so, go away.



Couldn't have put it better myself


----------



## andysays (Sep 10, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> ...Sympathy is  an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.



When I read this before, I was distracted by the voice I was imagining, so didn't pay full attention to the meaning.

It seems like a classic example of Newspeak to suggest that those carrying out ATOS assessments are engaging in "healthcare practice".

When you go to your GP with a problem, and they attempt some diagnosis and treatment, that is healthcare practice. If your GP is unable to deal adequetely with your problem and refers you to someone else, either for expert diagnosis or specialist treatment, that is healthcare practice. What these examples have in common is that the practitioner is attempting to care for/improve your health.

When you go to an ATOS assessor, they are attempting to decide whether or not your health allows you to work (cynically, they're attempting to demonstrate that it does...). There is absolutely no element of "care" involved. Although some of those carrying out these assessments might have once been healthcare practitioners, and even might like to tell themselves that's still what they're doing, they are clearly doing assessments not for the purposes of helping people to get better, but to serve the bureaucracy which seeks to deny often vulnerable people their means of support.

You are probably right that sympathy has no part in this process as it exists (and, I suspect, as it is intended to exist), but that just gives the lie to suggestions that the process is in any way intended to help the people who find themselves subjected to it.


----------



## toggle (Sep 10, 2014)

underlying the wibble, it is 'work makes free'. the basic idea that pushing people into greater 'integration' and normalisation, ie, into work, will have a universally positive effect on their wellbeing. anyone who disagrees with this proposition is ignoring the links between mental and physical health. presumably those who don't get better according to schedule are those who relish the 'sick role' and deliberately 'fail to help themselves'.

I think a more careful look by anyone without their head so firmly lodged up their own arse that not even a vat of phaal will dislodge it, it is clear that this is the approach that elevates ideology over medicine. damn the diagnosis and prognosis, you will feel better if you just get off your arse and work.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

Greebo said:


> I can only wish that zippyRN had their fingers zipped shut anound their genitals so that they couldn't post on this thread.  IMHO their contributions are neither use nor ornament.



imagine zippy with his foreskin trapped in his flies barking 'sympathy has no place!'


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 10, 2014)

Zippy might have a point that sympathy has no place in healthcare practice - You don't want someone to feel sorry for you, you want someone who can do their job to a decent standard. But that's got nothing to do with ATOS and the ESA assessment which, as has already been mentioned, aren't fit for purpose for reasons already outlined by other posters & have nothing to do with healthcare practice anyway.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 10, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> <snip> that's got nothing to do with ATOS and the ESA assessment which, as has already been mentioned, aren't fit for purpose for reasons already outlined by other posters & have nothing to do with healthcare practice anyway.


Unless you count making somebody need more healthcare as a direct consequence (and believe you me it is direct) of going through the form and the assessment.


----------



## toggle (Sep 10, 2014)

and while sympathy may have no place, empathy definitely does. 

i'll also note the wrongness of assuming that paid employment is the only route to integration.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2014)

**wrong thread**


----------



## andysays (Sep 10, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Zippy might have a point that sympathy has no place in healthcare practice - You don't want someone to feel sorry for you, you want someone who can do their job to a decent standard. But that's got nothing to do with ATOS and the ESA assessment which, as has already been mentioned, aren't fit for purpose for reasons already outlined by other posters & have nothing to do with healthcare practice anyway.



We may be going off on a bit of a tangent here, but it depends on what you take as the meaning of sympathy. There are at least two distinct meanings

feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune.


understanding between people; common feeling.
While I can imagine effective healthcare which doesn't include the first, I'd like to think it should include the second, and when I have come across healthcare practitioners who I don't feel display sufficient levels of sympathy in this sense, I try to find someone else to deal with me where possible.

Sympathy in that second sense isn't the only thing I want from my doctor, or the most important, but it certainly doesn't hurt for them to show a little bit of it.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 10, 2014)

Fair enough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2014)

Bear in mind that as well as best ng an arse, zippy has been a firm advocate of work being, as toggle says, the universal panacea for long-term sick and disabled people. By their lights, even posting on Urban proves that you're fit and able for some sort of work.
Of course, millions of employers don't share zippy's conviction, but what do they know?


----------



## felixthecat (Sep 10, 2014)

andysays said:


> 2. understanding between people; common feeling
> 
> Sympathy in that second sense isn't the only thing I want from my doctor, or the most important, but it certainly doesn't hurt for them to show a little bit of it.



And it's how you get people to comply with unpleasant treatment regimes. Personally I think it's an essential for a GOOD healthcare professional. It's not being 'soft' or being 'soppy', it's about understanding how they feel.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 10, 2014)

Despite Zippy's rantings(annoying yet amusing as they are) I didn't post this thread to illicit sympathy. I did so to bring it to the attention of anyone under the illusion like I was that ATOS were finished


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 10, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> Despite Zippy's rantings(annoying yet amusing as they are) I didn't post this thread to illicit sympathy. I did so to bring it to the attention of anyone under the illusion like I was that ATOS were finished



yes I had been wondering who had taken over the contract - so I'm glad you made us aware. 



zippyRN said:


> snip
> it saeems there are two sides in chronic   condition management  on one side there are the majority  of health professionals and an overall minority of patients / service users  ( veery  variable depending on condition) who  work for the normalisation  and integration of  people  with diabailities and chronic conditions  and work o nthe basis of maximising independence and  pushing  effective   disease management and rehab  situations , on the other is a minority of	of either  ridciulously soppoy or party political motivated Health professionals and various groups of  people with chronic conditions, some   drawing on political ideologies, some drawing on the magic bullet woo  of the various 'truthers'   with regard to some ci#onditions and others   who  have a complete  disconnect  between the phyical and  mental  somatic  aspects o f their condition and in doing so fail to help themselves  and  becasome agressive and insulting to  anyone who doesn;t  share their pity and give them sympathy .  Sympathy is  an emotion which has no place in healthcare practice.


You should be able to get a job with ATOS no trouble with those sorts of attitudes. 



Greebo said:


> Unless you count making somebody need more healthcare as a direct consequence (and believe you me it is direct) of going through the form and the assessment.


It's a stressful process, even if you don't have to appeal. Stress isn't helpful to many medical conditions.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 10, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> It's a stressful process, even if you don't have to appeal. Stress isn't helpful to many medical conditions.



To be frank, I think the DWP secretly hope people will find it too stressful and give up. Some more literally than others


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 10, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> To be frank, I think the DWP secretly hope people will find it too stressful and give up. Some more literally than others



I don't think it's even a secret tbh. The whole system is founded on the idea that 90% (or insert made-up statistic here) of sick people aren't really sick they're just lazy.

e2a: Of course they dress this up with some nonsense about making sure that those in genuine need get all the help they need while punishing the blaggers and scroungers, but they never explain how they reconcile such noble ambitions with the one-size-fits-all assessment system they've created, a system which seems to operate on the presumption that you're a scrounger until proven otherwise; regardless of what you, your doctor or basic human decency have to say about it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> To be frank, I think the DWP secretly hope people will find it too stressful and give up. Some more literally than others



Responses are DESIGNED to offer no encouragement. This has been the case since Incapacity Benefit was brought in to replace invalidity Benefit in the early '90s. They love that people give up, it has meant an annual under-claim of billions of pounds with regard to benefits.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 10, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't think it's even a secret tbh. The whole system is founded on the idea that 90% (or insert made-up statistic here) of sick people aren't really sick they're just lazy.


 
recalling one or two of twat face IDS's rants now I fear you may be right Frank


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 10, 2014)

They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people.  Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> To be frank, I think the DWP secretly hope people will find it too stressful and give up. Some more literally than others



Of course they are, and that's the main reason why so many hurdles are thrown in the way of those wanting to appeal a wrong decision, starting with mandatory reconsideration - which is in most cases just a chance for them to tell you to fuck off all over again - and culminating in the (currently) six-month wait to get a hearing.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 10, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people.  Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.



I'm intelligent - I'm well and have a degree - but I needed help filling out forms for my partner - who couldn't deal with them.  We no longer qualify /can get this help - so I'm grateful to the Atos thread on Urban in helping me fill out the last form.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 11, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people.  Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.



I may be wrong, but something from somewhere @ the back of my mind is saying it's about .8 percent


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 11, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> Of course they are, and that's the main reason why so many hurdles are thrown in the way of those wanting to appeal a wrong decision, starting with mandatory reconsideration - which is in most cases just a chance for them to tell you to fuck off all over again - and culminating in the (currently) six-month wait to get a hearing.



I couldn't agree more. They get turned over on appeal so they change the rules and the law to make it more difficult. They then cut funding to the likes of CAB so it's more difficult to get help. 

I remember being able to just pop into the local CAB office and get seen within the hour, now you are talking about waiting months - if you are lucky - before getting an appointment.

I know both sides of the political divide can be as bad as each other, but the Tories seem to relish sticking it to the Welfare State so much more.


----------



## buscador (Sep 11, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Responses are DESIGNED to offer no encouragement. This has been the case since Incapacity Benefit was brought in to replace invalidity Benefit in the early '90s. They love that people give up, it has meant an annual under-claim of billions of pounds with regard to benefits.



Yes, and this is why  the private companies that now run hostels etc find it economical to employ people to ensure that all of their "clients" get all of the benefits to which they may be entitled.  You will not be surprised to know that staff actually working with these vulnerable people receive minimum wage. It's a fucking disgrace.


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 11, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> I may be wrong, but something from somewhere @ the back of my mind is saying it's about .8 percent



Yeah spot on,fraud and error runs just over 2ish percent, on average. I wrote this a couple of years ago but the figures haven't really changed.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 11, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> Yeah spot on,fraud and error runs just over 2ish percent, on average. I wrote this a couple of years ago but the figures haven't really changed.



Sometimes the old grey matter still retains stuff. Like the other week for example.

A question on Only Connect - can't recall what it was - and I immediately said (to no-one in particular) 'the seventh hexadecimal'..

No idea whatsoever what it is/means but it was correct


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2014)

buscador said:


> Yes, and this is why  the prihate companies that now run hostels etc find it economical to employ people to ensure that all of their "clients" get all of the benefits to which they may be entitled.  You will not be surprised to know that staff actually working with these vulnerable people receive minimum wage. It's a fucking disgrace.



You're right, I'm totally unsurprised. The whole switch from social services depts providing services to primarily commissioning services was only ever about facilitating the flow of public money into private pockets.


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 11, 2014)

Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 11, 2014)

there does seem to be some confusion of sympathy with empathy  going on.  Empathy has a  very firm place in Healthcare practice as does compassion ,  rather than sympathetic,  it is possible and to be empathic and  compassionate in care  without   tipping into the  very real  risk of the negative consequencens that sympathy can have on the relationship. 

 yes i am an advocate of  integration and normalisation ,  while a proprtion of people with vchronic conditions are not going to be in a position to work , or are due to a degenerative condition are going to find their  options and opportunites  diminishing over time, there does seem to be  a sense of inevitability  in all with some people, perhpas i'm  loucky or biased but   there seems to be a  real risk  now that  people are of a mindset where the  disease management process is overtaking the public and  patient perception of some conditions,  given we have people  with CF in their  40s and 50s  and  people  who sustained  cervical spine injuries  40 -50 years ago, plus the lagacy of the  5 years posat injury parapelgics who have now knackered their  shoulders  as no-one  envisaged their survial beyond 10-20 years  post injury , HIV is increasingly moving from a death sentance to something along the lines  of  DIabetes in terms of impact on daily life


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 11, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> Privatise the profit, socialise the losses.



Monetise us cripples.


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 11, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> They don't make the system easy. Blaggers/proffessionals are more likely to know the system than sick people.  Even the govt own figures show they think only a tiny percentage of claimants are fraudulant - cant recall where I got this from but buscador might know.



 yet crazily i've been accused of being  all sorts by suggesting that   when making theinitial applications  especially for DLA/PIP   the advice of a  experienced  benefits advisor, ideally one with some  experience of your  main  condition can be  very useful .  forms wise a lot of it is about the wording  - it's a lot harder to blag  the actual assessments but  if  your form and supporting evidence  indicates that  your condition is  variable and fluctuating ...


----------



## iamwithnail (Sep 11, 2014)

Then the overwhelming evidence from three independent reviews shows that you'll be turned down, in all likelihood.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 11, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> there does seem to be some confusion of sympathy with empathy going on. Empathy has a very firm place in Healthcare practice as does compassion , rather than sympathetic, it is possible and to be empathic and compassionate in care without tipping into the very real risk of the negative consequencens that sympathy can have on the relationship.


I hadn't noticed any confusion, but your earlier posts seemed to lack empathy, sympathy or compassion.



zippyRN said:


> yes i am an advocate of  integration and normalisation ,  while a proprtion of people with vchronic conditions are not going to be in a position to work


That hasn't stopped them being found fit to work by Atos. Or those with critical conditions or progressive conditions too, for that matter.

A friend of mine in her mid 60s had cancer. She had had masectomy, chemo,  infections, complications, who had restricted movement in her arms and still felt ill, sore and exhaused - Atos found her fit to work. She had to report to the job centre to sign on, who would often keep her waiting out in the rain if she was early. Was that to integrate her and make her feel normal?  Where was the compassion then. Did she appeal? no, because she couldn't face the stress of the process.  She was so close to retirement age the appeal process would have taken longer.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 11, 2014)

I used to laugh watching Rainbow and the way Bungle, after having his fill of Zippy talking shite, used to just zip him shut.

Oh where are you now Bungle


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 11, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> yet crazily i've been accused of being  all sorts by suggesting that   when making theinitial applications  especially for DLA/PIP   the advice of a  experienced  benefits advisor, ideally one with some  experience of your  main  condition can be  very useful .  forms wise a lot of it is about the wording  - it's a lot harder to blag  the actual assessments but  if  your form and supporting evidence  indicates that  your condition is  variable and fluctuating ...



...it'll make little difference, because what comes into play with regard to variable/fluctuating conditions and their assessment is the assessor taking the lower incidence of problems as the baseline, rather than taking an average between the lowest and highest rates. Yet another reason why significant numbers of DLA decisions are revised at tribunal.

BTW, I'm not sure which planet you're on, but in the last 4 years most local authorities have shed "welfare advice" funding like a snake sheds skin. Here in Lambeth, we've lost around 60% of all provision over the last 4 years, and we're one of the better-off boroughs, with regard to what provision we have left!  Finding an "experienced benefits advisor" is difficult, verging on impossible. Just getting basic HB and JSA advice is a labour of patience for claimants, let alone unearthing someone who understands the vagaries of IB/ESA or DLA/PIP *and* your own particular health condition(s).


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 11, 2014)

Funnily enough there are significant numbers of  people with expertise in  DLA /PIP  applications in the third sector  with the   better end ( i.e. none magic bullet woo merchants) of the condition specific support groups , plus of course   many OTs  have significant  skills and experience in such topics ...

 Unfortunately   in the   situation of  spending vastly  exceeding  reciepts  as we saw uinder the Blair and Brown governments  something is going to have ot give and the vast armies of none-jobs  in the public secotr  were the immediate and obvious targets -  certainly  at the cost of protectign actual service provision


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 11, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Funnily enough there are significant numbers of  people with expertise in  DLA /PIP  applications in the third sector  with the   better end ( i.e. none magic bullet woo merchants) of the condition specific support groups , plus of course   many OTs  have significant  skills and experience in such topics ...



Yawn Yawn Yawn


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 12, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Unfortunately   in the   situation of  spending vastly  exceeding  reciepts  as we saw uinder the Blair and Brown governments  something is going to have ot give and the vast armies of none-jobs  in the public secotr  were the immediate and obvious targets -  certainly  at the cost of protectign actual service provision



Oh dear.  Idiotic right-wing cliches alert.

The national debt - which had been coming down since the late 1940s - was at a near-record low by 2000.  It is true that thereafter the Blair-Brown governments ran a small deficit, which was a mistake since a small deficit in good times turns into a large one in bad, but you're in effect regurgitating the _Mail_ cliches about Labour running up record debts, which simply is not true.  As for these 'vast armies of non-jobs,' I'd love to see some figures.  I can think of pointless positions in the public sector, but then I can think of plenty of equally pointless ones in the private sector.

Your agenda here is becoming very obvious.


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 12, 2014)

none jobs in the publc sector - let's start with 90 +% of the  band 5 and above NONE Health Professional jobs created  during the  reign of the great leader and the dear leader ...  thane answer to any question in the NHS during that period was to create  yet more lay Manager posts  - these posts were created as lay manager posts instead of giving  senior Health professionals better admin support  ( how many people in a  the private sector managing a team of 100 people don't have  any admin support, but instead have a lay manager of the same grade  who has no concept of the service provision, understanding of the  practicalities of the service  but they have got a clipboard and set of crowd pleasing but ultimately meaningless  statistics to collect, which will  be the sole measure of the service   and a certificate from some mickey mouse  in house training school that makes than a " lean  project  agility manager  sky blue pink belt " . 

we had a system which  despite 'bringing back matron'  did no such thing  it  just put  burnt out under qualified ex -nurses who kept their  registration on scanty grounds back into uniform ( sorry to any   Matrons and ADNs reading this but  the majority of band 8+s in management  i've met do  fulfill that   picture ) to do the exact same  job they did before in mufti ...  Odd isn;t it how other professions would not  expect a professional manager who is not an expert  practitioner


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 12, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> none jobs in the publc sector - let's start with 90 +% of the  band 5 and above NONE Health Professional jobs created  during the  reign of the great leader and the dear leader ...  thane answer to any question in the NHS during that period was to create  yet more lay Manager posts  - these posts were created as lay manager posts instead of giving  senior Health professionals better admin support  ( how many people in a  the private sector managing a team of 100 people don't have  any admin support, but instead have a lay manager of the same grade  who has no concept of the service provision, understanding of the  practicalities of the service  but they have got a clipboard and set of crowd pleasing but ultimately meaningless  statistics to collect, which will  be the sole measure of the service   and a certificate from some mickey mouse  in house training school that makes than a " lean  project  agility manager  sky blue pink belt " .
> 
> we had a system which  despite 'bringing back matron'  did no such thing  it  just put  burnt out under qualified ex -nurses who kept their  registration on scanty grounds back into uniform ( sorry to any   Matrons and ADNs reading this but  the majority of band 8+s in management  i've met do  fulfill that   picture ) to do the exact same  job they did before in mufti ...  Odd isn;t it how other professions would not  expect a professional manager who is not an expert  practitioner



This thread has sweet fuck all to do with most of the shite you are spouting Zippy, so I politely suggest you either stay on point, or - preferably - just fuck off


----------



## Greebo (Sep 12, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> This thread has sweet fuck all to do with most of the shite you are spouting Zippy, so I politely suggest you either stay on point, or - preferably - just fuck off


Word.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 12, 2014)

if he must grind his axe let him do it on a thread of his own making.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> Funnily enough there are significant numbers of  people with expertise in  DLA /PIP  applications in the third sector  with the   better end ( i.e. none magic bullet woo merchants) of the condition specific support groups , plus of course   many OTs  have significant  skills and experience in such topics ...



Yes, the MS Society, for example, retains half a dozen welfare advice experts...to cover the entire UK - they can't afford more.  Same with MacMillans and loads of others. Donations have either plateaud or decreased since 2008, and the third sector has ended up, by default, having to shed advice personnel just like the public sector has.



> Unfortunately   in the   situation of  spending vastly  exceeding  reciepts  as we saw uinder the Blair and Brown governments  something is going to have ot give and the vast armies of none-jobs  in the public secotr  were the immediate and obvious targets -  certainly  at the cost of protectign actual service provision



It's always interesting to see someone ignorant of how economics works (in cycles, as was realised at least three centuries ago), and how the private sector-induced "credit crunch" interrupted the economic cycle, put the blame on what is basically the target of their own political bias.
Here's the sad truth: Whichever party was in government would have been spending roughly the same amount of money at that period of the economic cycle, and the "credit crunch" would have caused that party exactly the same problems as it caused Labour, with regard to not completing the economic cycle.  Nothing to do with "public sector non-jobs" or other bugbears of the economically-illiterate right.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> This thread has sweet fuck all to do with most of the shite you are spouting Zippy, so I politely suggest you either stay on point, or - preferably - just fuck off



He probably got kicked off the _Femail_ forum.


----------



## zippyRN (Sep 12, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes, the MS Society, for example, retains half a dozen welfare advice experts...to cover the entire UK - they can't afford more.  Same with MacMillans and loads of others. Donations have either plateaud or decreased since 2008, and the third sector has ended up, by default, having to shed advice personnel just like the public sector has.
> 
> <snip>



the bloated troughing part of the third sector might have been shedding jobs, other  third sector organisations have maintained  services despite the challenging  economic picture and a few have been brave and gone round  culling none job holders  (paid and volunteers) and  undertaken organisational transformation  into  far stronger providers  - still with   significant volunteer  management  and  loads of  volunteer service delivery ( taking work back off the private sector who sold themselves as 'more professional' )  supported by  well managed  paid service  delivery working in complementary parts of their industry .

part of the problem with  both the public sector and parts of the third sector is that hey think that a businesslike and 'profitable'  working  is not  needed  becasue they  aren't businesses with an Owner and/or shareholders to please.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 12, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> the bloated troughing part of the third sector might have been shedding jobs, other  third sector organisations have maintained  services despite the challenging  economic picture and a few have been brave and gone round  culling none job holders  (paid and volunteers) and  undertaken organisational transformation  into  far stronger providers  - still with   significant volunteer  management  and  loads of  volunteer service delivery ( taking work back off the private sector who sold themselves as 'more professional' )  supported by  well managed  paid service  delivery working in complementary parts of their industry .
> 
> part of the problem with  both the public sector and parts of the third sector is that hey think that a businesslike and 'profitable'  working  is not  needed  becasue they  aren't businesses with an Owner and/or shareholders to please.




For a start, the majority of jobs shed by the third sector in the past 5-6 years haven't been due to "bloat", but to an attempt back in the noughties to engineer a fundamental change in the nature of welfare (in line with neoliberal economic predicates) so that it revolves around what "new Labour" christened "the third sector", and the Tories attempted to sell as "the Big Society" - two names for the same thing, which is the use of charities and voluntary organisations as service providers under contract to the state. This works fine when the state doesn't grasp the spurious excuse of "austerity" to trim public spending, but causes chaos, "bust" charities and a lack of service provision when they do.  Many of the charities that have weathered the last half-decade well have done so because they didn't get more than minimally tied-up in service provision contracts, and even they have had to make economies (although unfortunaely not generally in management, but in service provision).

As for your trope about public and third sector attitudes to business, given the top-down managerialism in both sectors, that hasn't been the case for going on 15 years. *Everything* has to be measured against various business metrics.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 12, 2014)

zippyRN said:


> [irrelevant and biased but well argued points]


zippyRN please either shut up or kindly leave the thread - your potentially valid points (if made elsewhere) are irrelevant here.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 12, 2014)

I tend to agree with Greebo here.

As interesting as your rants may be to someone else somewhere else zippyRN, what the fuck has any of it got to do with the topic of this thread???

I don't want a debate on who fucked up the economy or who is worse off between the public/private/third sectors etc etc. If you do, or you have anything else you wish to rant about kindly start your own thread.

This is about ATOS and the fact they are still doing assessments despite the Gov clearly stating they are unfit to do so


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 13, 2014)

No sign yet of my MP getting back in touch informing me that he's had stern words with the DWP/ATOS and as a result I don't have to attend on Mon. Maybe I credit him with having more power than he actually does. Oh well, so much for wishful thinking eh...


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> No sign yet of my MP getting back in touch informing me that he's had stern words with the DWP/ATOS <snip>


  Best of luck on Monday.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 13, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Best of luck on Monday.



Thanks.   At least by this time next week it'll be over an done with and I'll know where I stand, one way or another


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 14, 2014)

Apologies for last post(for anyone who read it before I deleted it). Was feeling a bit down and just needed to vent. 

Anyway, question for you. What is the quickest time between getting assessed and getting a decision anyone's had?

ps sorry for constant edits but my heads up my arse today


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 14, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> Apologies for last post(for anyone who read it before I deleted it). Was feeling a bit down and just needed to vent.
> 
> Anyway, question for you. What is the quickest time between getting assessed and getting a decision anyone's had?
> 
> ps sorry for constant edits but my heads up my arse today



For Incapacity Benefit, about 10 days. For DLA about 16 weeks.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 14, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> For Incapacity Benefit, about 10 days. For DLA about 16 weeks.



While on IB 4 months(incl appeal) Moved from IB to ESA 2 days


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 15, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> Apologies for last post(for anyone who read it before I deleted it). Was feeling a bit down and just needed to vent.
> 
> Anyway, question for you. What is the quickest time between getting assessed and getting a decision anyone's had?
> 
> ps sorry for constant edits but my heads up my arse today



It's always been about a fortnight for me. All the best anyway.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 15, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's always been about a fortnight for me. All the best anyway.



Thanks mate 

Most people I know/have asked said roughly the same time as you and Panda. 

Apart from my answer ^ there were 2 other times while I was on IB (had several assessments back then) which both took over a week. So I was surprised @ the speed they phoned me last year after moving me from IB to ESA. 

Here's hoping today's assessment goes just and well and I get the same result.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 15, 2014)

Excuse my language here but For Fucks Sake!!!!  Just got a call from ATOS cancelling my appointment because guess what, no fucking doctor available again!! Useless Motherfucking Bastards couldn't organise a 3 way in an orgy!!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 15, 2014)

Chris.H.1961  That is terrible. Useless the lot of them. Is this extra stress causing you distress or worsening your condition - if so write and tell them. Have you got to organise some one to go with you - what about the inconvenience to them? if so tell them. Did they cancel at short notice - don't they have good service guidelines or targets? Complain - be polite and blunt.

Good luck.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 16, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> Chris.H.1961  That is terrible. Useless the lot of them. Is this extra stress causing you distress or worsening your condition - if so write and tell them. Have you got to organise some one to go with you - what about the inconvenience to them? if so tell them. Did they cancel at short notice - don't they have good service guidelines or targets? Complain - be polite and blunt.
> 
> Good luck.



Thanks FoD 

It does my nut in to be honest, and yes, my stress levels have been through the roof. They phoned at about 10.30am and my app was for 3.30pm. 

The poor girl who phoned to cancel got a bit of an earful - I told her what I thought of Atos and that I'd be contacting my MP amongst other things - and she promised to pass on my remarks to her team leader as soon as she got off the phone. 

As soon as she was off the phone I emailed my MP, but, having calmed down now, what else can we expect from a company even the Gov have no confidence in??

Not sure about the last bit but I'll investigate.


----------



## Celt (Sep 16, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> Excuse my language here but For Fucks Sake!!!!  Just got a call from ATOS cancelling my appointment because guess what, no fucking doctor available again!! Useless Motherfucking Bastards couldn't organise a 3 way in an orgy!!



I am so sorry to hear that, there is just a possibility  that they will re look at the evidence and make a decision based on that.  Going back to my long process (which ended in me winning my appeal) I was called for re test about 2 months after I was placed in support group, it was an error and I made them write a letter saying that, but getting anyone to talk sense was difficult, however my renewal date is November and as we get near it my anxiety/blood pressure raises.

Keep your head, keep talking


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 16, 2014)

Celt said:


> I am so sorry to hear that, there is just a possibility  that they will re look at the evidence and make a decision based on that.  Going back to my long process (which ended in me winning my appeal) I was called for re test about 2 months after I was placed in support group, it was an error and I made them write a letter saying that, but getting anyone to talk sense was difficult, however my renewal date is November and as we get near it my anxiety/blood pressure raises.
> 
> Keep your head, keep talking



Thanks Celt

If that turns out to be the case I'll be overjoyed, but it's not the first time for me with the no-doctor saga. 

My original move from IB to ESA had to be stopped because the HCP suddenly realised part way through that she wasn't qualified to see me. That time there was a Doc on the premises so it went ahead, albeit late. This last one however - originally for August but after a venue change was rearranged for 1st Sept - was cancelled again because of no Doc, and this time I was sent away with an assurance that my next date would deffo be with a Doc.

When the app arrived ATOS had fucked up the venue again so after a phone call, still with assurances I'd get to see a Doc, it was arranged for 15th Sept. Hey presto 15th arrived and I get that phone call....

Have complained again to my MP so maybe it will get cancelled full stop, but I won't hold my breath


----------



## Celt (Sep 16, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> Thanks Celt
> 
> If that turns out to be the case I'll be overjoyed, but it's not the first time for me with the no-doctor saga.
> 
> ...


No, what ever you do breathe in AND out


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 19, 2014)

I'll try to remember that Celt 

It's been a few days with not much happening and haven't been feeling too hot so I thought I'd take a break.

Anyway my MP contacted me today for some more info before he gives Atos a bollocking. Not sure what good it will do as they have already sent me yet another appointment for early Oct..


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 20, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> I'll try to remember that Celt
> 
> It's been a few days with not much happening and haven't been feeling too hot so I thought I'd take a break.
> 
> Anyway my MP contacted me today for some more info before he gives Atos a bollocking. Not sure what good it will do as they have already sent me yet another appointment for early Oct..


Sorry your not so good ((Chris.H.1961)) Glad your MP has bothered to get in touch.  Fingers crossed for next time.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Sep 20, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry your not so good ((Chris.H.1961)) Glad your MP has bothered to get in touch.  Fingers crossed for next time.



Thanks FoD 

I think it's just all the stress taking a bit of a toll. But please don't worry, I'll carry on questioning these(imho) unfair/unjust reassessments until I get some answers.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Oct 9, 2014)

I haven't been around for a while as I've had too much on my mind, but finally had the assessment today. With a Doctor no less 

He went through virtually all of my medical history, even stuff that had sweet f a to do with my claim, and he took great delight in pointing out to me that one of the GP's at the surgery I go to had said on the medical report that I had been non-compliant with my meds??  News to me.

I told him quite firmly that it was bs as I have been taking the meds regularly and the only time I hadn't was when some of the meds had caused intolerable side-effects. He agreed eventually that that must have been the time they were meaning in the report. 

His attitude mellowed even more when he took my bp and found it to be 230/120  - it was 170/90 the previous day - and insisted on getting me a taxi home (at their expense). I said to him is it any wonder it's elevated having to go through this crap time after time just to prove you should be given some help. I said it'll be up for a while as I still have to wait for the decision from the DWP. 

He told me - even though he said he shouldn't - that regardless of my bp/heart and other problems I'd scored 15 points just because I have a form of epilepsy. However, he said the rules have changed now and just because you get 15 points for epilepsy it doesn't mean you will automatically be put in the support group. He did say though, in his opinion, I should be okay to be left where I am. I hope so, cos I really can't go through the shit of having to appeal.

I guess time will tell.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2014)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> I haven't been around for a while as I've had too much on my mind, but finally had the assessment today. With a Doctor no less
> 
> He went through virtually all of my medical history, even stuff that had sweet f a to do with my claim, and he took great delight in pointing out to me that one of the GP's at the surgery I go to had said on the medical report that I had been non-compliant with my meds??  News to me.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your BP chris, have you seen your GP about this recent elevation? I hope it passes soon.


----------



## Chris.H.1961 (Oct 9, 2014)

Thanks EG 

I went back to GP's this afternoon and it had dropped back to yesterdays figure. So it just shows the stress these wca's put you under


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2014)

Glad to hear you've finally had the assessment, and glad the blood pressure was just a temporary blip.

Hope you get the decision soonish, and that's it's the right one, obvs...


----------



## panpete (Oct 10, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> My wife's a woollyback too.  I only bring it up 'cos it annoys her!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Surely that's fraud.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 10, 2014)

panpete said:


> Surely that's fraud.


To make matters worse, the guy was (and AFAIK still is) a local GP regarded as very emininent.  He seems to have one set of ethics for his patients and one set for people he's paid to examine.  

At least, I hope he's got two sets of ethics, because the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.


----------



## panpete (Oct 10, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> Nah, you're assuming a level of organisation and ability that doesn't really exist - unless the individual doctor/advisor remembers you, it won't make any difference - in my experience it tended to result in 'Oh, there's that pain in the arse claimant, better double check it.'  I used to work for DWP, left partly as a result of the complete ignoring of the first Harrington review.


So, when you say "double check", does that mean that if you phone DWP it could trigger a reassessment.?


----------



## iamwithnail (Oct 11, 2014)

No, more in the 'do it right' spectrum.  If someone's a total pain from your perspective, you're much more likely to stick it in the files to be brought forward if you don't *need* to do something right now.


----------



## panpete (Oct 11, 2014)

iamwithnail said:


> No, more in the 'do it right' spectrum.  If someone's a total pain from your perspective, you're much more likely to stick it in the files to be brought forward if you don't *need* to do something right now.


I see thanks


----------



## Nick3535 (Oct 23, 2014)

I have spent a couple of hours reading through this thread and find my heart sinking further by the minute.  I am in the throes of being assessed by Atos and have even less faith in the process than I had before reading through the horror stories on here.
I was transferred into the support group from IB about 2 years ago without an assessment after the intervention of my psychiatrist. A few months later, I was sent a questionnaire by Atos, which I filled in to the best of my ability, although 90 per cent of the questions were a complete irrelevance. I was expecting to hear by the end of June last year, but heard nothing until last month when I was summoned for assessment. My GP and my psychiatrist have attempted to make contact on my behalf on several occasions, but have got nowhere. The only time my psychiatrist managed to speak to someone, they would only identify me by NI number and not by name. They told her that letters had been sent to her, to my GP and to me. All three statements were lies. 
When I arrived (with a friend as a witness) I was amazed to see there was absolutely nothing in my file apart from an 18 month old questionnaire. Surely letters should at least be on file? I handed over a letter from my psychiatrist and one from me and insisted they were put in the file. I then asked the "Health Care Professional" whether he was competent to deal with mental health issues. He replied that, as a holistically trained nurse, he was able to deal with all conditions. He then went on to ask me about the medication I was on. When I told him I had been taking Naproxen after a bout of shingles with ensuing neuralgia - totally irrelevant with regard to my claim - he announced that he was not trained to deal with a neurological condition and stopped the interview. 
I could not believe that anything quite so stupid could happen and allowed myself to think that maybe he had taken note of the contents of the letter from my psychiatrist, but no. I have now been summoned to reappear on November 13th when I assume the whole miserable process will come to an end.
Sorry to ramble on, and I don't suppose anything comes as a surprise to those who have been going through this process for much longer than I have. 
What irks me most is that, like so many, I would like to get to a point where I can work again. On my good days it feels possible. The really bad days, weeks and months mean it is out of the question. The whole Atos process just makes things a whole lot worse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2014)

Nick3535 said:


> I have spent a couple of hours reading through this thread and find my heart sinking further by the minute.  I am in the throes of being assessed by Atos and have even less faith in the process than I had before reading through the horror stories on here.
> I was transferred into the support group from IB about 2 years ago without an assessment after the intervention of my psychiatrist. A few months later, I was sent a questionnaire by Atos, which I filled in to the best of my ability, although 90 per cent of the questions were a complete irrelevance. I was expecting to hear by the end of June last year, but heard nothing until last month when I was summoned for assessment. My GP and my psychiatrist have attempted to make contact on my behalf on several occasions, but have got nowhere. The only time my psychiatrist managed to speak to someone, they would only identify me by NI number and not by name. They told her that letters had been sent to her, to my GP and to me. All three statements were lies.
> When I arrived (with a friend as a witness) I was amazed to see there was absolutely nothing in my file apart from an 18 month old questionnaire. Surely letters should at least be on file? I handed over a letter from my psychiatrist and one from me and insisted they were put in the file. I then asked the "Health Care Professional" whether he was competent to deal with mental health issues. He replied that, as a holistically trained nurse, he was able to deal with all conditions. He then went on to ask me about the medication I was on. When I told him I had been taking Naproxen after a bout of shingles with ensuing neuralgia - totally irrelevant with regard to my claim - he announced that he was not trained to deal with a neurological condition and stopped the interview.
> I could not believe that anything quite so stupid could happen and allowed myself to think that maybe he had taken note of the contents of the letter from my psychiatrist, but no. I have now been summoned to reappear on November 13th when I assume the whole miserable process will come to an end.
> ...


(((nick3535)))  good luck for your interview. oh - and welcome aboard


----------



## Greebo (Oct 23, 2014)

Nick3535  welcome to urban, sorry that long term illness has brought you to this thread.  

Even if the assessment is decided against you, you can still appeal.  ESA/IB appeals are being fought and won by claimants every day.  It's not over until it's over.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 23, 2014)

Nick3535. You didn't ramble on, and you are welcome here.

Get you doctor/phychiatrist to write something and take it along to add to that thin file, don't assume they know anything, gather anything you have on paper about your treatment/illness. I know its daunting. I hope they don't make your health worse.
I wish you all the very best.


----------



## Nick3535 (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks for the welcome. It is easy to think one is alone facing this crap, but Atos and IDS clearly like to pick on people in large numbers.


----------



## panpete (Oct 24, 2014)

Nick3535 said:


> I have spent a couple of hours reading through this thread and find my heart sinking further by the minute.  I am in the throes of being assessed by Atos and have even less faith in the process than I had before reading through the horror stories on here.
> I was transferred into the support group from IB about 2 years ago without an assessment after the intervention of my psychiatrist. A few months later, I was sent a questionnaire by Atos, which I filled in to the best of my ability, although 90 per cent of the questions were a complete irrelevance. I was expecting to hear by the end of June last year, but heard nothing until last month when I was summoned for assessment. My GP and my psychiatrist have attempted to make contact on my behalf on several occasions, but have got nowhere. The only time my psychiatrist managed to speak to someone, they would only identify me by NI number and not by name. They told her that letters had been sent to her, to my GP and to me. All three statements were lies.
> When I arrived (with a friend as a witness) I was amazed to see there was absolutely nothing in my file apart from an 18 month old questionnaire. Surely letters should at least be on file? I handed over a letter from my psychiatrist and one from me and insisted they were put in the file. I then asked the "Health Care Professional" whether he was competent to deal with mental health issues. He replied that, as a holistically trained nurse, he was able to deal with all conditions. He then went on to ask me about the medication I was on. When I told him I had been taking Naproxen after a bout of shingles with ensuing neuralgia - totally irrelevant with regard to my claim - he announced that he was not trained to deal with a neurological condition and stopped the interview.
> I could not believe that anything quite so stupid could happen and allowed myself to think that maybe he had taken note of the contents of the letter from my psychiatrist, but no. I have now been summoned to reappear on November 13th when I assume the whole miserable process will come to an end.
> ...


What a beautifully written post, I can feel the despair, and the despondency in it.


----------



## Roadkill (Nov 6, 2014)

Just popping in briefly to say that my friend won his appeal today.  All those battling the system, take heart.  It's slow, it's bureaucratic, and the DWP will throw as many hurdles in your way as it can (and IDS will continue insisting that everything is fine and dandy when that is manifestly untrue), but if you stick at it you _can_ win.  Good luck.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 6, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> ...  All those battling the system, take heart.  ...



That is great news!   

"You poor take courage:
You rich take care ..."


----------



## longdog (Nov 7, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> Just popping in briefly to say that my friend won his appeal today.



I can now reveal to an expectant world that that friend is me 

Long story short(ish)...

This time last year I was sent an ESA50 having been on ESA and before that IB for about 10 years. I eventually had a assessment in February this year.

At the assessment I was seen by a physiotherapist who quite clearly didn't understand anything about mental health. He spent most of the session copying information from my medication boxes and even though he had them right in front of him he still managed to get it wrong. Then he spent most of the rest of the session checking the mobility in my arms, legs, back and neck which had precisely sweet fuck all to do with my claim.

A few days later I got a phone call from the DWP telling me I had received no points and my claim had been ended and I'd have to claim JSA.

Naturally I decided to challenge this and got hold of the Medical Report written by the jumped up PE teacher... It was a joke. It was so bad I started to wonder if I'd actually been there at the time because so much of it was irrelevant, trivial or just plain wrong. Apparently it was considered supremely relevant that I 'can drive but does not own a car for financial reasons'. Quite what being unable to afford to drive a car has to do with anything is anybody's guess particularly when it was cited time and time again as evidence in descriptors which had sweet fuck all to do with anything.

Anyhoo... I applied for mandatory reconsideration which of course went against me (there's a surprise) and the MR notice contained more crap that the decision maker had pulled directly out of her arse. So I went to appeal.

One very long wait later I get a hearing date and a copy of the 'secretary of state's submission' to the tribunal which, once again, contained new crap and flights of fantasy such as 'has fitted smoke alarms'  and references to a medical assessment in 2012 which never happened.

So... The appeal date comes around and me an Roadie arrive, spend a few minutes in the waiting room before being ushered in to face a judge and a doctor. Five minutes (if that) later we walk out victorious.

After all of the stress and upset they caused the fucking DWP didn't even show up.


----------



## mentalchik (Nov 7, 2014)




----------



## Roadkill (Nov 7, 2014)

It really is startling how ramshackle the whole system is.  With the exception of the tribunal yesterday, which was done quickly, efficiently and as pleasantly as these things can be, not a single part of the process has worked well.  The assessment was a farce, the healthcare professional's report was laughable, the initial decision was therefore wrong and the letter advising longdog of it verged on incoherence.  Mandatory Reconsideration was conducted quickly, but the conduct of DWP staff at that point was deeply unprofessional (I shan't go into detail) and the MR decision notice was frankly dishonest.  And then after all that there was a six-month wait for a tribunal hearing that lasted a few minutes.  It's ridiculous.

Moreover, the new assessment system is supposed to save money, but once you factor in the costs of the ATOS assessment, the tribunal and the DWP staff time that went into the initial decision, MR, tribunal preparation and all the rest, I can't believe it's achieved that.  Indeed, I'd love to know how much the whole fiasco has cost the taxpayer.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 7, 2014)

Longdog, congrats on your eventual victory.  There's no way that you ought to have been put through this long and shambolic process (including being lied about) in order to get the money you need and are entitled to.

And Roadkill, well done supporting him through it; knowing that even one other person believes that you're not a fraud and that you're not alone can make all the difference in the world.


----------



## Roadkill (Nov 7, 2014)

Greebo said:


> And Roadkill, well done supporting him through it; knowing that even one other person believes that you're not a fraud and that you're not alone can make all the difference in the world.



No way was I going to sit back and watch my best mate lose his entitlements at the behest of a know-nothing physiotherapist and a bunch of lying incompetents at the DWP!

Tbh, I've learned so much about ESA assessments in the last year or so that I'm starting to wonder if there's any way I can use it to benefit others in the same position as longdog - some project I could volunteer for, or something.  As you said on another thread, it's up to us to outlive this failed system, take it to pieces and get something workable and fair put in its place.  Helping other people take on the DWP and hopefully win might be a small step in that direction.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 7, 2014)

Congrats to Roadkill and longdog , what a fuckabout that you had to go through all this shit though.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 7, 2014)

longdog said:


> I can now reveal to an expectant world that that friend is me
> 
> Long story short(ish)...
> 
> ...



That sounds like a long stressful process. Well done for getting through it.


----------



## panpete (Nov 9, 2014)

Well done Longdog x


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 9, 2014)

Congratulations longdog and Roadkill - well done indeed!

You are right that the system is farcical. Even the DWP don't seem to follow their own guidelines on assessments, and to send a physiotherapist (and a crap one at that) to do a mental health assessment, well, it's no wonder that many people applying for the benefit say to hell with this and just sign off it.

If you'd like to help others, Roadkill, try your local CAB or even the Atos Support thread here on urban (in P&P).


----------



## longdog (Nov 10, 2014)

Thanks for the good wishes folks and of course big thanks to Roadie for his invaluable assistance and bullying


----------



## andysays (Nov 11, 2014)

Welcome to Nick3535, congratulations to longdog and good on ya to Roadkill.


> Dear Roy,
> I've been claiming ESA since September of last year and I've finally had a letter from ATOS calling me in for an "assessment with a healthcare professional" in early December. Is this a record?
> cheers, andysays


----------



## Nick3535 (Dec 6, 2014)

I haven't looked on here for a while and have hugely cheered up by hearing of Longdog and Roadkill's success. Many congratulations, firstly on the result and, secondly, on giving hope to so many others who, like me, have felt like giving up the struggle.
I am in the throes of it at the moment. Having been sent away from my first interview with Atos because the "Healthcare Professional", having claimed that his holistic training as a nurse meant he was competent to judge on all aspects of health, had to call a halt to proceedings because he couldn't cope with the fact that I was taking a mild form of medication after a bout of Shingles. Summoned back a month later, I was confronted by a cold, poker faced woman, who clearly felt that any pretence of empathy would have been unprofessional. After a farce of an interview, I was told I would hear the result in four weeks time. After ten days, I received a letter saying I had been awarded 0 points and that I was no longer entitled to ESA. I was more than a little annoyed to discover the payments had been stopped three days before they even wrote to me.
I had hand delivered a letter, requesting a copy of the report. Instead, there was a message saying that the report was not being sent, but I could write to request a copy. There was also a claim that attempts to reach me by phone had been made and that, in spite of leaving voice mail messages, contact had not been possible. The voice mail went as follows: " I am phoning from the Department of Work and Pensions". Helpful, eh?
In the short report I received, description of a bad day was glossed over and description of a good day was turned into a typical day.  The fact that I drive to appointments with my psychiatrist elicited this:
" Driving is a complex activity requiring planning, insight, awareness of hazards and the ability to cope with change at short notice. This demonstrates an ability to attend unfamiliar surroundings alone and interact with strangers in a stressful situation."
I am firmly of the view now that this is a process with a start and a pre-ordained conclusion. What happens between the two is of no consequence and words are just toyed with to create an assessment straight out of Alice in Wonderland. The process is crass, insensitive, politically motivated, profoundly unjust and one where people are "processed" much as animals are when they arrive at an abattoir.
At the end of their letter I read that I could ask to have the decision reconsidered by phoning the DWP. When I did so, I said that it was my intention to appeal, only to be told that this phone process was the appeal. I was told that somebody from ESA would ring and that, if I declined to go through this process, I would not be allowed to appeal further.
The phone call duly happened and, largely fuelled by adrenalin and anger, I made my feelings very clear about the whole process. I was not rude, but I was forceful. I was told: a) that my comments would be passed on and that I would be called back within 48 hours and b) that I would receive a full copy of the report.
That was a week ago and I have heard nothing.
After the initial burst of anger driven energy, I have come back down with a bump. I think IDS and his demonic crew work on the basis that "victims" won't have the confidence, the nous, the energy or the self belief to put up a fight. Most will just accept what happens, no matter how unjust.
I can't do this on my own, but I am lucky in having an exceptional psychiatrist who is strapping on her armour as I write, ready to battle on my behalf.
I don't know how this will end, but I would rather die fighting the bastards than acquiesce. I am, by nature, courteous, and that was held against me in the potted report I received. That makes me fume.
I will probably read this in a few hours time and think it was all just hot air. But I have to believe I can win this or I might just as well give up.

Long winded as ever! Sorry.

PS ATOS had not read anything from my psychiatrist and had made no attempt to contact her. They claimed that was the responsibility of the DWP. But they hadn't bothered either. Happy days!


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 6, 2014)

Sorry to hear that. Nick3535.   You ain't wrong that the process is a politically-motivated farce that bears no meaningful relationship to a sensible assessment of your condition, but unfortunately that's the system and all you can do is fight your corner within it.  FWIW I'd save the (justified!) vitriol about the process, the competence of the assessor and the conduct of DWP staff for the complaint after you've won: it won't get you anywhere at this stage and could conceivably work against you.



Nick3535 said:


> It the end of their letter I read that I could ask to have the decision reconsidered by phoning the DWP. When I did so, I said that it was my intention to appeal, only to be told that this phone process was the appeal. I was told that somebody from ESA would ring and that, if I declined to go through this process, I would not be allowed to appeal further.
> The phone call duly happened and, largely fuelled by adrenalin and anger, I made my feelings very clear about the whole process. I was not rude, but I was forceful. I was told: a) that my comments would be passed on and that I would be called back within 48 hours and b) that I would receive a full copy of the report.
> That was a week ago and I have heard nothing.



This isn't the full appeal process, unfortunately: it's Mandatory Reconsideration (MR), in which a DWP decision maker (supposedly not the same one who made the original decision, though I don't believe for one minute that that is always the case) looks again at your claim and the initial decision.  It's basically a hurdle thrown in your way to demoralise you and deter you from appealing, and don't be discouraged if they knock you back and insist the decision is correct: that's the whole point of the exercise.  

I'd have advised against asking for MR by phone.  Seems to me that it's better to do it in writing, providing a statement detailing how and why you take issue with the decision, backed up by as much evidence as you can gather from clinicians who've dealt with you.  However, if you've already done it by phone it's too late, and given that it rarely seems to result in the decision being reversed it may not matter anyway.  Either way, do chase up the report (I take it you mean the 'Healthcare Professional's' (*hollow laugh*) report?  If so you are legally entitled to receive a copy of it), and if you've not heard anything about the progress of your reconsideration claim in the next couple of weeks, chase that up too.

Assuming the reconsidered decision goes against you, you can then move to full appeal.  This is the real chance to get the decision overturned, so grab it with both hands.  Submit as much detail as you can on your condition, how it impacts you and why the assessment has failed to assess it properly, and back it up with as much evidence as you can.  After that all you can do is wait - and you'll have to, as the backlog of appeal cases is enormous - but at least you can go back on ESA, albeit only at the assessment rate.



> After the initial burst of anger driven energy, I have come back down with a bump. I think IDS and his demonic crew work on the basis that "victims" won't have the confidence, the nous, the energy or the self belief to put up a fight. Most will just accept what happens, no matter how unjust.
> I can't do this on my own, but I am lucky in having an exceptional psychiatrist who is strapping on her armour as I write, ready to battle on my behalf.
> I don't know how this will end, but I would rather die fighting the bastards than acquiesce. I am, by nature, courteous, and that was held against me in the potted report I received. That makes me fume.
> I will probably read this in a few hours time and think it was all just hot air. But I have to believe I can win this or I might just as well give up.



That's exactly what it's all about.  That's why the appeals system has been made needlessly complex, and why the deadline for MR is so ridiculously tight: they've worked in as many pitfalls as they can to deter victims from challenging decisions and disqualify claims when they try to do so.  That is also one reason why they've very happy to see community law centres closing left, right and centre (because they are: this government is systematically destroying the non-profit legal advice sector), and Citizens Advice Bureaux so overloaded with cases that they cannot offer timely assistance.  Not only is this shitty government removing support from people who need it, but it's trying its damnedest to kick away the means for them to fight back too.  Evil fucking bastards every last one of them.  But yes, all you can do is fight it, and although it may feel at times as if you can't win it, you still can: it'll be  a long, frustrating and depressing process, but you'll get there in the end.  Good luck, and full credit to your psychiatrist for helping.  



> Long winded as ever! Sorry.



Please don't feel the need to apologise.


----------



## StoneRoad (Dec 6, 2014)

I wonder if "Benefits and Work" can be of use here ?

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum/index

I think some info is free, other parts and downloads are for subscribers only.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 6, 2014)

Nick3535 said:


> I haven't looked on here for a while and have hugely cheered up by hearing of Longdog and Roadkill's success. Many congratulations, firstly on the result and, secondly, on giving hope to so many others who, like me, have felt like giving up the struggle.
> I am in the throes of it at the moment. <snip> The process is crass, insensitive, politically motivated, profoundly unjust and one where people are "processed" much as animals are when they arrive at an abattoir.
> 
> <snip>After the initial burst of anger driven energy, I have come back down with a bump. I think IDS and his demonic crew work on the basis that "victims" won't have the confidence, the nous, the energy or the self belief to put up a fight. Most will just accept what happens, no matter how unjust.
> ...


Sorry you've been messed around so much when this money should be paid promptly and with far less of  a process so that people can concentrate on recovering or stabilising instead of having to fight the system.  You're still in with a chance.  I'll wish you luck, but if there was enough justice in the way this is run, luck wouldn't be needed.


----------



## Nick3535 (Dec 6, 2014)

Thank you so much, Roadkill. You have taken a great deal of trouble and what you say is very helpful. You clearly know your onions!
I wish I had found out a bit more about the MR earlier. I know that you can't expect any help from these people, but I was definitely told that I had a choice: go through the reconsideration by phone, or lose the right of appeal. I was not given the option of a written process.
You are right of course about holding back on the vitriol. It was just that an adrenalin rush and a fair degree of anger made it possible for me to make my views very clear. When my mood drops badly it will be virtually impossible to carry on fighting with that degree of energy, so I am glad at least to have made my point while it was manageable. It is really why I put so much hope in my psychiatrist. Her dander is up and she fully intends to take them on!

Thanks Greebo, too. This forum is immensely helpful, both in terms of support, but also in making one realise that so many others are having to contend with the same shit that is currently coming my way.


----------



## panpete (Dec 6, 2014)

Sorry to hear you had to go through all that Nick and I hope  you find the energy from somewhere to fight it.
The medicals are a farce. I once read on atosvictims group (site now closed) that it's best to try not to attend a face to face medical, because all the hard work you do in the ESA50 is wiped out by the face to face assessment, where they can lie and omit.
Having said that, I just read through the fifth and final review of the WCA and it expressed concern that people were getting into the support group without a face to face medical and this needed looking at.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 7, 2014)

StoneRoad said:


> I wonder if "Benefits and Work" can be of use here ?
> 
> http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum/index
> 
> I think some info is free, other parts and downloads are for subscribers only.



Yes, Nick3535 I'd definitely advise signing up to this: there are some really knowledgeable people on it and a wealth of info.  Well worth signing up to IMO.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 7, 2014)

Nick3535 said:


> I wish I had found out a bit more about the MR earlier. I know that you can't expect any help from these people, but I was definitely told that I had a choice: go through the reconsideration by phone, or lose the right of appeal. I was not given the option of a written process.



They ought to have told you that.  One thing I should have said yesterday: keep a log of communications with the DWP, including brief details of what was discussed and, if possible, details of whoever you spoke with.  Whether through incompetence (and IME there's a fair bit of that) or anything else you may well be given misleading or incomplete info and it might conceivably help your case at appeal if you can give a few examples of how your case has been mishandled.  And, of course, it provides ammo for a complaint when it's all over bar the shouting...


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 8, 2014)

Nick3535 said:


> I can't do this on my own, but I am lucky in having an exceptional psychiatrist who is strapping on her armour as I write, ready to battle on my behalf.
> I don't know how this will end, but I would rather die fighting the bastards than acquiesce. I am, by nature, courteous, and that was held against me in the potted report I received. That makes me fume.
> I will probably read this in a few hours time and think it was all just hot air. But I have to believe I can win this or I might just as well give up.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you have a psychiatrist on your side, I'm sure that will help. Atos really have behaved badly suggesting a phone call was your only appeal option. Please don't give up - that's what the system wants that everyone get so demoralised that thay give up and die. You be as outspoken as you like here - I hope it helps.

Wishing you all the strength needed to fight your appeal. x


----------



## Nick3535 (Jan 10, 2015)

The process of being buggered about from pillar to post has continued since my last post a month ago. The Mandatory Reconsideration Notice came back riddled with inaccuracies, distortions and lies. Great notice was taken, apparently, of a letter from my GP. No such letter was ever written! Extensive attempts were made to contact me by phone - funny that - I have a landline and an ancient steam driven mobile. I barely left the house on the the days the calls were allegedly made and I had my mobile with me whenever I did. The rest was just a regurgitation of the drivel that ATOS had come up with. In spite of repeated requests, I only received the full report of the ATOS interview after the MR process had finished. The whole thing is just a nightmare.
Over Christmas, I downloaded the notice of appeal form and the guidance notes you are asked to read - form T97. At the end of the guidance notes, there is a clear instruction on where to send the appeal notice. More of that later!
I went to see my psychiatrist on Christmas Eve, armed with all the documentation. She gave me a lot of time and wrote up a report that afternoon. Christmas then intervened and she had to wait until she returned to work on January 5th to have it typed up. I received it on January 6th and was faced with a rush to beat the 28 day deadline. Christmas post meant I did not receive the MR notice until 5 days after it was sent and an 11 day break over Christmas and New Year made it very tight. I had spent hours and hours and hours trying to come up with an appropriate submission, but I simply could not get it right and my mental state was deteriorating at a rate of knots. After further discussion with my psychiatrist, it was felt best to produce something short and to try to do the job properly prior to an eventual tribunal. My hope is that such a strongly worded report from my psychiatrist may render that unnecessary, but I won't be holding my breath.
So on Thursday, I photocopied everything and sent it by special delivery (at a cost of £6.40 when my money has been stopped) to the address given at the end of the guidance notes. The deadline was met and I thought I could put it out of my mind for a while. This morning, I received a letter from the Courts and Tribunal Service returning my appeal, saying that the office to which I had sent it does not administer appeals against DWP decisions. Somewhat unhelpfully, it did not tell me where I should send it. It seems to me that there are two possibilities: either the guidance notes are wrong, which is disgraceful, or addresses have been changed in which case, surely, my appeal should have been forwarded to the new address.
The net result is that I still have my appeal, I have missed their deadline and I don't know where to send it. I will go on the Benefits and Work website later and try to make some sense of it all. 
I was not in too bad a state when I had the ATOS interview and I was entirely open, courteous and honest. My every word has been twisted to create a wholly unjust picture. Since then my mental state has deteriorated drastically and the crisis team has had to become involved. I had truly hoped that the malice of ATOS, the DWP and ESA was behind me and I could expect better treatment at the hands of the Courts and Tribunal Service. After this latest setback, that doesn't appear likely. I fear that for the penpushers a corpse represents a good result.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2015)

Oh bloody hell.    So sorry to read all that, Nick3535.  Do go and ask on Benefits and Work - there are people on there who really know their stuff and should be able to advise on the best way forward.  Based on a hazy recollection of something I read during Longdog's appeal I think there is a provision for extending the deadline for appeals if you've good reason for having missed it.  I may be wrong there, but do try and find out.

Also, do remember that if your mental health has worsened then there is nothing to stop you putting in a fresh claim.  You'll only get assessment rate, but that's better than no money at all.

Good luck.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 11, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> The process of being buggered about from pillar to post has continued since my last post a month ago. The Mandatory Reconsideration Notice came back riddled with inaccuracies, distortions and lies. Great notice was taken, apparently, of a letter from my GP. No such letter was ever written! Extensive attempts were made to contact me by phone - funny that - I have a landline and an ancient steam driven mobile. I barely left the house on the the days the calls were allegedly made and I had my mobile with me whenever I did. The rest was just a regurgitation of the drivel that ATOS had come up with. In spite of repeated requests, I only received the full report of the ATOS interview after the MR process had finished. The whole thing is just a nightmare.
> Over Christmas, I downloaded the notice of appeal form and the guidance notes you are asked to read - form T97. At the end of the guidance notes, there is a clear instruction on where to send the appeal notice. More of that later!
> I went to see my psychiatrist on Christmas Eve, armed with all the documentation. She gave me a lot of time and wrote up a report that afternoon. Christmas then intervened and she had to wait until she returned to work on January 5th to have it typed up. I received it on January 6th and was faced with a rush to beat the 28 day deadline. Christmas post meant I did not receive the MR notice until 5 days after it was sent and an 11 day break over Christmas and New Year made it very tight. I had spent hours and hours and hours trying to come up with an appropriate submission, but I simply could not get it right and my mental state was deteriorating at a rate of knots. After further discussion with my psychiatrist, it was felt best to produce something short and to try to do the job properly prior to an eventual tribunal. My hope is that such a strongly worded report from my psychiatrist may render that unnecessary, but I won't be holding my breath.
> So on Thursday, I photocopied everything and sent it by special delivery (at a cost of £6.40 when my money has been stopped) to the address given at the end of the guidance notes. The deadline was met and I thought I could put it out of my mind for a while. This morning, I received a letter from the Courts and Tribunal Service returning my appeal, saying that the office to which I had sent it does not administer appeals against DWP decisions. Somewhat unhelpfully, it did not tell me where I should send it. It seems to me that there are two possibilities: either the guidance notes are wrong, which is disgraceful, or addresses have been changed in which case, surely, my appeal should have been forwarded to the new address.
> ...


Thats bloody awful!  I don't know have you've had the strength to deal with this twattery. Please don't let the bastards win.


----------



## panpete (Jan 12, 2015)

Just to say I'm thinking about you Nick3535 and wish I could say something useful, can't imagine how much of a strain it is on you. Best of luck.


----------



## free spirit (Jan 12, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> So on Thursday, I photocopied everything and sent it by special delivery (at a cost of £6.40 when my money has been stopped) to the address given at the end of the guidance notes. The deadline was met and I thought I could put it out of my mind for a while. This morning, I received a letter from the Courts and Tribunal Service returning my appeal, saying that the office to which I had sent it does not administer appeals against DWP decisions. Somewhat unhelpfully, it did not tell me where I should send it. It seems to me that there are two possibilities: either the guidance notes are wrong, which is disgraceful, or addresses have been changed in which case, surely, my appeal should have been forwarded to the new address.


make sure you keep the registered post, and returned envelope and letter, or copies of as evidence.

If the address matches with that given on the guidance then you did everything you reasonably could be expected to to meet their requirements, and it is their failure that has caused you to miss that deadline.

Do not let them fob you off, do not go in on the back foot apologising, go straight in with a formal complaint about their administrative failure, demand an extension and reinbursement for your costs, and explain that you will be writing to your MP about their incompetence.

Always good to really put them on the defensive from the off when you know you have irrefutable evidence of their incompetence in front of you IMO.


----------



## Nick3535 (Jan 12, 2015)

I am feeling a bit sheepish! Heaven only knows how I managed it, but I sent the wrong form, using the wrong guidance notes, to the wrong address. Much as I would love to blame everybody else for everything, this is my cockup! I have now sent everything off to the proper destination and have a lot to thank Benefits and Work for. Fingers crossed that missing the deadline by 24 hours will not be used against me.
Thanks to everyone on here for their support. It has been a great boost.
A serious point - I am reasonably well educated, hopefully not stupid and able to string a few sentences together. I have been reduced to gibbering incompetence by this process and very nearly threw in the towel last week. It really is a scandal that things should be made so complicated and obstructive - it is a wholly cynical abuse of power to drive people into submission or worse.
I am going to try to forget about the whole wretched business for a few days before somebody else throws a spanner in the works.
I don't have a clue as to timescale.


----------



## Celyn (Jan 13, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> ...
> A serious point - I am reasonably well educated, hopefully not stupid and able to string a few sentences together. I have been reduced to gibbering incompetence by this process and very nearly threw in the towel last week. It really is a scandal that things should be made so complicated and obstructive - it is a wholly cynical abuse of power to drive people into submission or worse.



Yes, indeed.  I know we're not meant to attribute things to malice if they are more likely the result of incompetence, but I  do think the DWP tends towards the malicious end of things.

You make a very good point: I do wonder how anyone with any difficulty in coping with the written word is supposed to cope.



> I am going to try to forget about the whole wretched business for a few days before somebody else throws a spanner in the works.
> 
> I don't have a clue as to timescale.



Although it's not much comfort, it's certainly good to have a few days of "it  is done, now I can only wait, lap of the gods, sort of thing", before the great fear of the postman  strikes again.  

Fingers crossed for you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> I am feeling a bit sheepish! Heaven only knows how I managed it, but I sent the wrong form, using the wrong guidance notes, to the wrong address. Much as I would love to blame everybody else for everything, this is my cockup! I have now sent everything off to the proper destination and have a lot to thank Benefits and Work for. Fingers crossed that missing the deadline by 24 hours will not be used against me.
> Thanks to everyone on here for their support. It has been a great boost.
> A serious point - I am reasonably well educated, hopefully not stupid and able to string a few sentences together. I have been reduced to gibbering incompetence by this process and very nearly threw in the towel last week. It really is a scandal that things should be made so complicated and obstructive - it is a wholly cynical abuse of power to drive people into submission or worse.



yep, it's absolutely a cynical abuse of power, and was and is exactly the reason that one of the strongest protests from disabled people and people with long-term illnesses has always been about the length and inscrutability of the application/renewal forms.
I am going to try to forget about the whole wretched business for a few days before somebody else throws a spanner in the works.


----------



## Nick3535 (Jan 30, 2015)

Things have moved on since my last post. I received a letter from Job Centre Plus, saying that I would be paid ESA backdated to November 25th last year during the appeal process.
I then received a mysterious letter from the Courts and Tribunal Service, saying that the Appeals Officer had revised the decision on my case and that the new decision is a more favourable one. As a result, my appeal has lapsed and no further action will be taken. I was advised that I must lodge a fresh appeal if I think the new decision is still wrong, but, somewhat unhelpfully, there was no mention of what the new decision is.
I have now received a second letter from Job Centre Plus, making no mention of the appeal, but saying that I will be paid ESA, but not after November 22nd 2015. In the meantime, I may need to attend a Work Focus Interview with a Personal Advisor, that I may need to attend a Work Capability Assessment (Is this another ATOS fiasco interview?) and that I need to provide Medical certificates until a Work Capability Assessment is carried out.
The point of the original appeal was that my psychiatrist was convinced that I should be in the Support Group and her report made this point in the strongest terms imaginable.
I suppose that I now have to go for Mandatory Reconsideration again. When the rubber stamp is applied, confirming the original decision, I will then have to embark on a fresh appeal if I am to have any chance of being placed in the Support group.
I will also run the risk of losing the ESA I have just been awarded.
My health has deteriorated drastically in the last few months and I am beginning to question whether this fight is worth the candle. I am not in a fit state for interviews, tribunals or anything else. I have barely left the house since before Christmas and, to make matters worse, my wonderful psychiatrist, who has been my saviour for the last nine years, has moved to the other side of the country. The only contact I have at present is with the crisis team at my local hospital and they do not seem to have much to offer in dealing with my appeal.
I am reluctant to give up, because the last thing I want to do is to allow this appalling, unjust, uncompassionate and quite disgraceful system to win. If continuing to fight, however, takes much more toll, I may well not be here to see the outcome.
What is particularly galling is that, like many other people, my condition varies enormously. I now feel extremely anxious that, should I go through a phase of feeling better, it will somehow be used against me. I have never felt got at - I certainly do now.
In short, I simply don't know where to turn.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 30, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> Things have moved on since my last post. I received a letter from Job Centre Plus, saying that I would be paid ESA backdated to November 25th last year during the appeal process.
> I then received a mysterious letter from the Courts and Tribunal Service, saying that the Appeals Officer had revised the decision on my case and that the new decision is a more favourable one. As a result, my appeal has lapsed and no further action will be taken. I was advised that I must lodge a fresh appeal if I think the new decision is still wrong, but, somewhat unhelpfully, there was no mention of what the new decision is.<snip>


Ring up and ask for clarification, which you also want in writing, of *what exactly the appeal decision was and for how long.  Note the person's name (they can at least give their first name), position, time and day of this call, so that it can be verified if need be.*



Nick3535 said:


> <snip> I have now received a second letter from Job Centre Plus, making no mention of the appeal, but saying that I will be paid ESA, but not after November 22nd 2015. In the meantime, I may need to attend a Work Focus Interview with a Personal Advisor, that I may need to attend a Work Capability Assessment (Is this another ATOS fiasco interview?) and that I need to provide Medical certificates until a Work Capability Assessment is carried out. <snip>


Suppose nothing, check everything, and ask people to clraify whatever isn't making sense because it seems to contradict another letter.  IMHO you need to make this the problem of either the CAB or the nearest disability rights place.  I'm not organised or efficient by nature, but when dealing with the DWP you have to be.  Alternatively, find somebody you can trust to help you keep track of stuff and read officialese.  English, but not as we know it.



Nick3535 said:


> My health has deteriorated drastically in the last few months and I am beginning to question whether this fight is worth the candle. <snip> I am reluctant to give up, because the last thing I want to do is to allow this appalling, unjust, uncompassionate and quite disgraceful system to win. If continuing to fight, however, takes much more toll, I may well not be here to see the outcome.  <snip> I have never felt got at - I certainly do now.
> In short, I simply don't know where to turn.


*solidarity fistbump*  Everyone feels like that - particularly if it never occurred to them to ever make a dishonest claim.  

Others will be along presently, but I can tell you right now, you're not alone in this.  As for how long you fight, as long as you feel able to, and only you can decide that.


----------



## panpete (Feb 1, 2015)

Please don't give up Nick, you need to eat and clothes yourself etc.


----------



## batman1234 (Feb 6, 2015)

Nick please do not give up.

Myself and my husband have been through so many assessments and appeals for one claim. 
in 2009 His IB was stopped as I worked and we lived together, therefore I could provide for him.
6 months later (After I had fallen into debt) the dwp decided that indeed he was entitled to his own money due to his illness. 
Later in the year his illness worsened and new care workers were provided leading to a year successful DLA claim, this then ended and a review letter sent. The reviewed decision was refused as the condition he suffers was in between diagnosis and the results from the recent tests and studies he has undergone were still unavailable.
During the same period IB moved him to ESA - which was refused. He was unable to take anybody into his ATOS assessment with him and was unable to answer alot of the questions (along with other issues, he has epilepsy & unfortunately is unable to answer 'what happens when you are mid fit). He scored 0. 
Money was tight, as it was a sanctioned rate, we were even refused Crisis loans. 

Several re - assessments and letters from mp, gp, health workers, consultants later we received a Tribunal date.

We were seen by a Judge and independent doctor, they spoke to my husband for 10 mins and then asked my opinions. I was then given credit for coping with all his 'issues' without asking for support & told that i actually qualify as a career.
We were sent out for about 5 mins whilst they made their decisions, in this time my Hubs had a seizure in the waiting room. Having been checked out by the doc, we were told we could leave with our Winning appeal. Esa to be re instated with immediate effect and backdated. 
There was also a condition on the letter from the judge to dwp stating that myself and partner are not to be contacted by dwp, Atos or job centre plus for a minimum of 3 years. Which of course they ignored when they invited him in for a back to work interview and then sent him home again.

All together it took us about 3 years to successfully receive the correct entitlement at the correct rate.

Keep fighting. You will get there. 

Just a few months ago, we had a official diagnosis, armed with all the details and evidence, an application to Pip was placed. Within 3 weeks we were called to Atos for a next day appointment. An hour later we received another call to say it had been cancelled & that they had enough evidence.

Fast forward 6 weeks - a successful decision with back payments. A total of 24 points scored but did not qualify for the care component although it is advised that I do not leave my partner alone.

^^^Something I cannot be bothered to fight for.

Sorry for the long post, I thought it would be helpful for you to know, you can beat this awful system.

P.s - the majority of Hubs 'issues' are MH.


----------



## batman1234 (Feb 6, 2015)

*Carer


----------



## Nick3535 (Feb 15, 2015)

Thanks to everybody for all the kindness and support since I first posted on here. After being forced through all kinds of nonsense, I phoned the DWP to ask which of the three letters I had received in the previous week - all saying different things -  was accurate. Apparently, none of them were! I was told that a new note had been put on the file and that I had been put in the support group and that money would be backdated to the day in November when it had been stopped. I suppose I should be dancing for joy, but instead I feel guilty that I appear to have won when others are still having to fight on. I also have no faith in any decision and would not be at all surprised to be summoned back to ATOS at any moment. At least this gives me a breathing space, I suppose, and each month takes me closer to pensionable age - just over three years to go - so fingers crossed and hope to be left alone for a while.
This experience has knocked me sideways and I am in a more withdrawn and isolated state than I have ever been. I just hope that calmer waters may bring about some improvement.
To read yesterday that this shameful government is now threatening to deprive overweight people of benefits and to hear the appaling Mcvey woman suggesting that sanctioning people on benefits is a good way of flagging up to the authorities that they need help, simply makes me despair. Why, oh why can't the Labour party stand four square against this demonising of the poor and the ill?  
It feels as if I have leant heavily on others here for support and I have offered nothing in return. If the fact that my psychiatrist has single handedly beaten off the worst efforts of ATOS and the DWP combined can offer hope to others, at least there may be the seed of a positive contribution.


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> ...It feels as if I have leant heavily on others here for support and I have offered nothing in return. If the fact that my psychiatrist has single handedly beaten off the worst efforts of ATOS and the DWP combined can offer hope to others, at least there may be the seed of a positive contribution.



Glad to hear you've finally had some success, and sorry it took so long.

You're not obliged to offer anything in return for the support you've had, but as you suggest your good news gives some encouragement to us all.

Of course you're welcome to stick around and offer whatever support you can to others in future 

And if you want to join in the discussions in the politics forum, including the issue of why the Labour party can't stand four square against this demonising of the poor and the ill, this thread might be a place to start


----------



## Greebo (Feb 15, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> Thanks to everybody for all the kindness and support since I first posted on here. After being forced through all kinds of nonsense, I phoned the DWP to ask which of the three letters I had received in the previous week - all saying different things -  was accurate. Apparently, none of them were! I was told that a new note had been put on the file and that I had been put in the support group and that money would be backdated to the day in November when it had been stopped. I suppose I should be dancing for joy, but instead I feel guilty that I appear to have won when others are still having to fight on. I also have no faith in any decision and would not be at all surprised to be summoned back to ATOS at any moment. At least this gives me a breathing space, I suppose, and each month takes me closer to pensionable age - just over three years to go - so fingers crossed and hope to be left alone for a while. <snip>


Congratulations Nick, I'm glad to hear that at least you'll have the breathing space you need to have a chance of improving a bit.  No need for guilt, although it's a very natural and human thing to feel, when you've been lucky and so many others haven't.

You can offer hope and have done so, just by posting that you've won.  You can add your voice to hundreds of others of ordinary people saying that this system hurts the very people it's supposed to help.  You can pass your experience onto others you come across if they're ever (heaven forbid) in this situation.  You can point them in the direction of this thread on urban.

Most of all, you contribute by staying alive, whether on urban or not.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Feb 16, 2015)

Glad you are ok, Nick3535. Visit when you feel well enough to share your experience with others.


----------



## pogo 10 (Feb 19, 2015)

Here we go, got appointment at 11am for pip assessment, take a deep breath, lucky my support worker is coming.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 19, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Here we go, got appointment at 11am for pip assessment, take a deep breath, lucky my support worker is coming.


heres hoping it goes well for you pogo

I did have an appmnt on last sunday (a sunday! only evil labours on the sabbath  ) but they sent me another letter rescheduling it for the first monday of march. Which in some ways is better because I can get a lift and not dice with semi-rural sunday bus service.


----------



## pogo 10 (Feb 19, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> heres hoping it goes well for you pogo
> 
> I did have an appmnt on last sunday (a sunday! only evil labours on the sabbath  ) but they sent me another letter rescheduling it for the first monday of march. Which in some ways is better because I can get a lift and not dice with semi-rural sunday bus service.


Cheers dot communist, and good luck for you too, what a strange day to give you eh, a sunday.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 19, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Here we go, got appointment at 11am for pip assessment, take a deep breath, lucky my support worker is coming.


Best of luck with that, pogo.  And good luck with your assessment too, Dottie.


----------



## pogo 10 (Feb 19, 2015)

T


Greebo said:


> Best of luck with that, pogo.  And good luck with your assessment too, Dottie.


thanks a lot greebo.


----------



## pogo 10 (Feb 19, 2015)

Went alright today, i think, apart from a really oppressive waiting room with a dead loud clock. Said theyd be in touch in about 8 weeks.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 19, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Went alright today, i think, apart from a really oppressive waiting room with a dead loud clock. Said theyd be in touch in about 8 weeks.


Be sure to get a printed copy of the assessment - so that if you want a review of the decision, or have to appeal, there'll be less time taken up waiting for it.


----------



## panpete (Feb 19, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Here we go, got appointment at 11am for pip assessment, take a deep breath, lucky my support worker is coming.


Best of luck with your PIP


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Went alright today, i think, apart from *a really oppressive waiting room with a dead loud clock*. Said theyd be in touch in about 8 weeks.



I had that at mine, now you mention it - must be some standard issue waiting room design and clock!

Hope you get the right result


----------



## panpete (Feb 19, 2015)

andysays said:


> I had that at mine, now you mention it - must be some standard issue waiting room design and clock!
> 
> Hope you get the right result


Things like that make me really uncomfortable and unsettled. I hate going in big buildings, and oppressive waiting rooms freak me out.


----------



## pogo 10 (Feb 19, 2015)

andysays said:


> I had that at mine, now you mention it - must be some standard issue waiting room design and clock!
> 
> Hope you get the right result


Thanks andysays.


----------



## pogo 10 (Feb 19, 2015)

panpete said:


> Best of luck with your PIP


Thanks panpete.


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2015)

panpete said:


> Things like that make me really uncomfortable and unsettled. I hate going in big buildings, and oppressive waiting rooms freak me out.



Yeah, I know what you mean - I was sort of joking before, but if I'm already feeling anxious then waiting rooms can make it all worse.


----------



## longdog (Feb 27, 2015)

Nick3535 said:


> I also have no faith in any decision and would not be at all surprised to be summoned back to ATOS at any moment.



You might want to get on the phone to the DWP and ask for a copy of the ESA85A. This is the form the 'Health Care Professional' fills in when they award you ESA without an actual WCA. It will list the reasons you were awarded how ever many points you got or the reason you didn't need any points (basically because being found fit for work would create a 'substantial risk' to your physical or mental welfare). It will also state how long it will be until your next 'reconsideration'.

The DWP do not make a habit out of sending claimants the ESA85A (or even tell them that such a thing exists) which I suspect is down to them knowing that you will use it as a stick to beat the fuckers with the next time around but you are *entitled* to a copy. If they fuck you about do a FOI request and force them to comply.

At the risk of telling you something you already know remember this the ESA85*A* not the ESA85 which is a different beast entirely.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 27, 2015)

longdog said:


> You might want to get on the phone to the DWP and ask for a copy of the ESA85A. This is the form the 'Health Care Professional' fills in when they award you ESA without an actual WCA. It will list the reasons you were awarded how ever many points you got or the reason you didn't need any points (basically because being found fit for work would create a 'substantial risk' to your physical or mental welfare). It will also state how long it will be until your next 'reconsideration'. <snip>


Good point, this could be very useful if the decision needs to be challenged or you need to renew your claim later.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Feb 28, 2015)

longdog said:


> You might want to get on the phone to the DWP and ask for a copy of the ESA85A. This is the form the 'Health Care Professional' fills in when they award you ESA without an actual WCA. It will list the reasons you were awarded how ever many points you got or the reason you didn't need any points (basically because being found fit for work would create a 'substantial risk' to your physical or mental welfare). It will also state how long it will be until your next 'reconsideration'.
> 
> The DWP do not make a habit out of sending claimants the ESA85A (or even tell them that such a thing exists) which I suspect is down to them knowing that you will use it as a stick to beat the fuckers with the next time around but you are *entitled* to a copy. If they fuck you about do a FOI request and force them to comply.
> 
> At the risk of telling you something you already know remember this the ESA85*A* not the ESA85 which is a different beast entirely.


I had no idea that it exists either - will be writing to the DWP . Thank you.


----------



## pogo 10 (Mar 15, 2015)

Got letter on saturday saying im getting basic pip a week and got backdated money today, gonna buy a thankyou present for my support worker, absolute star she is.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 15, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Got letter on saturday saying im getting basic pip a week and got backdated money today, gonna buy a thankyou present for my support worker, absolute star she is.


That is great, I'm pleased for you.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 15, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Got letter on saturday saying im getting basic pip a week and got backdated money today <snip>


Congratulations - I hope the extra cash makes it easier for you to get through the next year or so.


----------



## pogo 10 (Mar 15, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Congratulations - I hope the extra cash makes it easier for you to get through the next year or so.


Thanks greebo.


----------



## pogo 10 (Mar 15, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> That is great, I'm pleased for you.


Thanks friend of dorothy.


----------



## cms33711 (Dec 10, 2016)

Hi. My case and experience is quite disturbing too. The health care professional introduced himself as a paramedic. A Paramedic!

In my case I suffer badly from ankylosing spondylitis and some days can not walk. I unfortunately suffer from aspergers with related major depression. - he purposely skipped all mental health related issues. They did not get in contact with my CMHT social worker or Psychiatrist. I am 45 years old - I didn't choose this way of life.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2016)

cms33711 said:


> Hi. My case and experience is quite disturbing too. The health care professional introduced himself as a paramedic. A Paramedic!
> 
> In my case I suffer badly from ankylosing spondylitis and some days can not walk. I unfortunately suffer from aspergers with related major depression. - he purposely skipped all mental health related issues. They did not get in contact with my CMHT social worker or Psychiatrist. I am 45 years old - I didn't choose this way of life.


Hi sorry I didn't see your post earlier. Welcome to urban. 

I know no one would choose to be ill, but the system makes you feel as if you're to blame. You are not to blame. I imagine being interviewed by a paramedic must have seemed like an insult. My partner was interviewed by a physiotherapist, which didn't seem very good at the time either, but it was ok in the end.

I think the 'assessments' commonly ask lots of stuff about physical health and not so much about mental health. 

Have you heard back from them yet?


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 12, 2017)

cms33711 said:


> Hi. My case and experience is quite disturbing too. The health care professional introduced himself as a paramedic. A Paramedic!



 With the level of ignorance  over preparation for practice  of health professionals  do peopel  wonder why so few   bother to engage  in discussion ?  

comparatively few of the paramedics in  current clinical practice as solely ' blue  book '  6 +6  weekers ... 

as forthe objection / suprise at a physio  doing the  assessments   i think that says more aobut the commentorsd lack of knowledge  than the suitability of  Physios  and OTs  to be doign the assessments ,  arguably physios have a better baseline knowledge of   assessment and examination than  Nurses as they are expected to  demonstrate  competencies in a more rigourously assessed way  pre -reg ...  ( a physio who cannot auscultate  would not pass  their respiratory / cardio modules ...  where  as  many (civvie) nurses don't get the opportunity to learn this  important  skill  properly  unless they  set out to specifically learn it )


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 13, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> With the level of ignorance  over preparation for practice  of health professionals  do peopel  wonder why so few   bother to engage  in discussion ?
> 
> comparatively few of the paramedics in  current clinical practice as solely ' blue  book '  6 +6  weekers ...


? eh 'blue book' what? no idea what 6+6 weekers means.
whose ignorance?  who is not bothering to engage in discussion?  which discussion are you refering to?


Before my partner got ill I'd only a limited experience of the health service, and no idea at all about the benefits system. The hoops they make you jump through, seem very weird to people new to all this. I was trying to to support my partner through a very stressful process (the fear of it all made her very ill for weeks) I got a lot of support on this forum a few years ago and I'm trying to offer that back to others going through these assessments.  My own experience of dealing with Atos means I take a dim view of this useless, profit grabbing, heartless company and its harsh, underhand, sneeky methods.



zippyRN said:


> as forthe objection / suprise at a physio  doing the  assessments   i think that says more aobut the commentorsd lack of knowledge  than the suitability of  Physios  and OTs  to be doign the assessments ,  arguably physios have a better baseline knowledge of   assessment and examination than  Nurses as they are expected to  demonstrate  competencies in a more rigourously assessed way  pre -reg ...  ( a physio who cannot auscultate  would not pass  their respiratory / cardio modules ...  where  as  many (civvie) nurses don't get the opportunity to learn this  important  skill  properly  unless they  set out to specifically learn it )


No idea what most of this means, I've just had to look up auscultate. All I can say there was no physical examination or stethoscopes involved in the re-assessment, is there ever? 

My parter has bad guts and mental health issues - and has never encountered a physio in her treatments of either issue.  So why should I expect a physio would be a suitable assessor? If you read my post again you'll see I was trying to be encouraging to cms33711, as it was ok for my partner and the physio had obviously recognised that my partner is still too ill to work.

No I'm not knowledgable about the training involved - why should I be expected to be? I presume you must be some sort of health worker or atos employee maybe - so rather than just being dismissive of me, why don't you just share your fucking precious knowledge. Or are you just here to snipe? This is a matter of life and death to some here.

What I've learned so far about this assessment process, is this isn't about assessing your health at all - it's about trying to disqualify people from claiming benefits to which they are entitled.


----------



## Celyn (Jan 13, 2017)

I wish I could "like" the above post more than once.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jan 13, 2017)

friendofdorothy - nail on head !
wish I could like that more than once.

as for zippy, just ignore 'em. They may be involved in some way with medical matters, but on here, seems to be largely sniping at people trying to make sense of the benefits system, who are trying to claim their entitlements (despite this "caring gov't" making this as hard, demoralising and downright difficult as they can - and constantly moving convoluted conditions and goalposts)


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 13, 2017)

Thanks you two. Makes it all worthwhile. 

I'm just trying to keep my chin up and my head above water.  I feel abit like zippy might just enjoy watching someone struggling in deep water. Zippy might just say that the lifeguard, who isn't even in the water to save them, is super qualified.


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 14, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> ? eh 'blue book' what? no idea what 6+6 weekers means.
> whose ignorance?  who is not bothering to engage in discussion?  which discussion are you refering to?



a good few years ago there was a Panorama or some such   documentary that claimed that UK Paramedics 'had six weeks training' ... 

at the time that was partially truthfully, as the  theory part of a a 'Blue Book' Paramedic course  was  6 weeks in Duration ... 
However it ignored the fact that you had to have completed  the  PTS and Technician( 'Green book' / Millar/ national proficinecy) courses , the driving course , worked as Tech for at least a year  and if  you passed the course  you had  6 weeks of A+E/ theatres/ labour ward placements  to do  before you completed the IHCD Paramedic course . 

in the intervening  decade plus ,  Paramedic pre-registration educatio nand training has  joined  the other  HCPC professions, Nursing and MIdwifery, Medicne , Dentistry  etc in  Highereducation and the current  standards for new course approves are at least NQF level 5 and  at least 2  years  if not 3 in duration and  iirc 1500 clinical hours  in addition to the  contact time  required to deliver the HE qualification




friendofdorothy said:


> Before my partner got ill I'd only a limited experience of the health service, and no idea at all about the benefits system. The hoops they make you jump through, seem very weird to people new to all this. I was trying to to support my partner through a very stressful process (the fear of it all made her very ill for weeks) I got a lot of support on this forum a few years ago and I'm trying to offer that back to others going through these assessments.  My own experience of dealing with Atos means I take a dim view of this useless, profit grabbing, heartless company and its harsh, underhand, sneeky methods.
> 
> 
> No idea what most of this means, I've just had to look up auscultate. All I can say there was no physical examination or stethoscopes involved in the re-assessment, is there ever?
> ...



There are no hoops to jump through -  this is a view expressed  by those who are either ignorant or  ideologically   bound against  the  system,  Contrary to  the widely held  belief of the paranoid  left   no one in government or the civil service wants to do things for the fun of it or as a job  creation scheme ( the  irony is most of the job creation in the public sector is at the behest of the unions), it is a symptom of the fundamental immaturity of many  'activists' that they are unwilling to   understand  their  impact on others  or  simple  things like the duty of organisations to  prove they are spending   taxpayers money in an effective way.   

Tthe purpose of the  Assessments  for both ESA and PIP are not to challenge  Diagnosis  - this is a fundamental misapprehension pushed by those who  like to  dismiss the validity of  the assessment  being conducted   by  None Medical health professionals or   by the 'wrong '  speciality of Medical Practitioner , this is only marginally  better that the 'Sea Org'  style  'Fair game' approach   adopted by  the entryists and Corbynistas to deal with dissent . 

It is a functional assessment not a diagnostic one , which comes back the fundamental misapprehension / Diagnosis fallacy  ...  having a diagnosis , or not , or  two diagnoses  or   five or 27 makes no difference.  Requiring diagnoses  would  actually discriminate against soem ofthe most disabled people inour communities  as they simply don;t have diagnoses  ...  also  diagnosis means nothing  'asthma'  ranges from peopel who get a bit  wheezy if the weather changes suddenly or  it;s hayfever  season , through to people who have multiple ITU stays  and  are  severely   limitedi n their physicla  capacity becasue of the brittle nature of their Asthma ... 

it is also interesting that the progession of certain conditions seems to be more relatedto social, somatic and psychologicla factors than the underlying causes ...


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 14, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks you two. Makes it all worthwhile.
> 
> I'm just trying to keep my chin up and my head above water.  I feel abit like zippy might just enjoy watching someone struggling in deep water. Zippy might just say that the lifeguard, who isn't even in the water to save them, is super qualified.



 what a presumptuous bunch of libel ... 

 rather than those  who  when throuwn life rings, ropes, life jackets etc  moan whinge and comlain it  took too long or the boat that eventually had to be launched was the wrogn shade of orange...  but then again personal responsibility and the left  is never an easy fit ...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> personal responsibility and the left is never an easy fit


understanding the generational effects of their policies and the politics they endorse isn't much of a fit for the right is it zippy? Every post you make has the unspoken 'malingerer' judgement, always has. People like you are poison to most folk, you know that? You weild your acronyms and vaunted insider knowledge in an obfuscatory way while all the time exposing yourself as a self interested piece of shit whose only function is to degrade further peoples trust in medical proffesionals. 70 years ago you'd have been a backstreet abortionist living at rillington place. Now fuck off, medicine man. Your greatest achievement has been performing the first succsesful procedure of a man removing his own cock and transplanting it to his own forehead


----------



## Celyn (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> ...
> 
> There are no hoops to jump through -  this is a view expressed  by those who are either ignorant or  ideologically   bound against  the  system,  Contrary to  the widely held  belief of the paranoid  left   no one in government or the civil service wants to do things for the fun of it or as a job  creation scheme ( the  irony is most of the job creation in the public sector is at the behest of the unions), it is a symptom of the fundamental immaturity of many  'activists' that they are unwilling to   understand  their  impact on others  or  simple  things like the duty of organisations to  prove they are spending   taxpayers money in an effective way.



Now, please, young Mr. Zippy, if you would be so kind, read again that which you have written and then try to re-write it in a way that might be - shall be say more "calm", or more "sensible"?



zippyRN said:


> ...
> Tthe purpose of the  Assessments  for both ESA and PIP are not to challenge  Diagnosis  - this is a fundamental misapprehension pushed by those who  like to  dismiss the validity of  the assessment  being conducted   by  None Medical health professionals or   by the 'wrong '  speciality of Medical Practitioner , this is only marginally  better that the 'Sea Org'  style  'Fair game' approach   adopted by  the entryists and Corbynistas to deal with dissent .


... Oh what now?   "Sea Org"?    I thought that was a Scientology thing. OK, apparently  it is also a zippyRN thing. Oh good grief.  



zippyRN said:


> ... It is a functional assessment not a diagnostic one , which comes back the fundamental misapprehension / Diagnosis fallacy  ...  having a diagnosis , or not , or  two diagnoses  or   five or 27 makes no difference.  Requiring diagnoses  would  actually discriminate against soem ofthe most disabled people inour communities  as they simply don;t have diagnoses  ...  also  diagnosis means nothing  'asthma'  ranges from peopel who get a bit  wheezy if the weather changes suddenly or  it;s hayfever  season , through to people who have multiple ITU stays  and  are  severely   limitedi n their physicla  capacity becasue of the brittle nature of their Asthma ...
> 
> it is also interesting that the progession of certain conditions seems to be more relatedto social, somatic and psychologicla factors than the underlying causes ...



You are a troublesome person presuming to offer advice where you can not, and doing it in a most obnoxious manner. Also illiterate.

This would be fine if it were only for your amusement, but it is not.

Where actual people seek advice for things in the actual world, the last thing we need to hear is you yapping wierdly


----------



## Celyn (Jan 14, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> ... Now fuck off, medicine man. Your greatest achievement has been performing the first succsesful procedure of a man removing his own cock and transplanting it to his own forehead



I suppose that at least has the benefit of making it unlikely that he could reproduce.

Well, we can but hope, I suppose.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> bunch of libel


you have no reputation to be defamed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> those who like to dismiss the validity of the assessment


and when they do, well. Well well well. Would you care to look up the stats for succesful appeals against assements made? Go on, you'll love it. Its over 50% btw


----------



## Celyn (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> what a presumptuous bunch of libel ...
> 
> rather than those  who  when throuwn life rings, ropes, life jackets etc  moan whinge and comlain it  took too long or the boat that eventually had to be launched was the wrogn shade of orange...  but then again personal responsibility and the left  is never an easy fit ...



Just what the hell are you on about?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2017)

Celyn said:


> Just what the hell are you on about?


its the last line that nails him, not that this shit from that arsehole is needing of further reinforcing. He's been at it for time and never once questioned anything, never thought about why he's scraping a w/c lad off the floor or attending to the results of a wife beating/family fight/drunken brawl/motorbike accident. This ones self imagined labour aristocracy. Can't be a doctor but boy does he wish he was


----------



## Libertad (Jan 14, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Can't be a doctor but boy does he wish he was



zippyRN does however manage to be a full time professional cunt.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 14, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> ? eh 'blue book' what? no idea what 6+6 weekers means.
> whose ignorance?  who is not bothering to engage in discussion?  which discussion are you refering to?





zippyRN said:


> a good few years ago there was a Panorama or some such  documentary that claimed that UK Paramedics 'had six weeks training' ...
> 
> at the time that was partially truthfully, as the  theory part of a a 'Blue Book' Paramedic course  was  6 weeks in Duration ...
> However it ignored the fact that you had to have completed  the  PTS and Technician( 'Green book' / Millar/ national proficinecy) courses , the driving course , worked as Tech for at least a year  and if  you passed the course  you had  6 weeks of A+E/ theatres/ labour ward placements  to do  before you completed the IHCD Paramedic course .
> ...


 so the 'discussion' you were refering to was one that no one else on this thread was having then. No one mentioned Pararama or any knowledge of training proceedures. ah.

I admire our NHS professionals. Myself and many people I love have benefitted from the care and actions of paramedics, ambulance drivers, porters, nurses and other health workers - I have nothing but respect for them. I'm glad they receive good training - as our lives depend on them.

You could have helped allay the fears cms33711, a new member here, about the person who assessed him. The man was afraid because no questions had been asked about his mental health condition. Presumably he was afraid that this person might write a report that could strip him of his meagre benefits income. You could have enlightened everyone on this thread. Instead you chose to call us ignorant.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> There are no hoops to jump through -  this is a view expressed  by those who are either ignorant or  ideologically   bound against  the  system,



No hoops to jump through?
When my partner got ill I attempted to find out how to claim benefits for her. I am english, I am lierate and numerate, I have a degree and I did not find the process to be easy. I had to fill in a bulky (48 page?) form to claim for DLA for her - I needed professional help to fill it in. It was baffling. hoops. This was some time ago, I can't say any stage of the process since has been easy. hoops. Filling in the forms has reduced me to tears - and I'm not even the one who is ill. hoops.

Her re assessment with Atos was was cancelled  twice making me take extra time off work at short notice, inconvenient for me and my employers. Hoops. hoops. hoops.



zippyRN said:


> Contrary to  the widely held  belief of the paranoid  left   no one in government or the civil service wants to do things for the fun of it or as a job  creation scheme ( the  irony is most of the job creation in the public sector is at the behest of the unions), it is a symptom of the fundamental immaturity of many  'activists' that they are unwilling to   understand  their  impact on others  or  simple  things like the duty of organisations to  prove they are spending   taxpayers money in an effective way.



Paranoid left? our previous PM introduced the idea of 'austerity' and 'strivers and skivers'. I'm not being 'paranoid' in imagening which group the ill and benefit claimants fall into. The idea of 'austerity' and the concept of 'skivers' have been linked so often by politicians, journalists and the media, the false logic being that 'skivers' (including the ill, old, disabled and poor) are some how responsible for 'austerity'.  Rather than the reckless gambling of bankers and the failure of regulatary bodies and govts to control them. The way I see it is the rich fucked up and the poor must pay.

I work. I pay tax, I've always paid tax. My partner had always been a taxpayer too - until she was ill. I expect public bodies to be financially accountable.  The govts own figures suggested a tiny percentage of sickness benefits were being fraudulently claimed, yet Atos/maximus/who-ever are interviewing every sick person as if they are lying. How much is the cost of the appeals process - is this cost efficient for the tax payer? Does Atos actually save any taxpayers money?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> what a presumptuous bunch of libel ....



I presume you are ignorant of the meaning of the word 'libel'.

and please do fuck off this thread.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 14, 2017)

Libertad said:


> zippyRN does however manage to be a full time professional cunt.


To say that zippy is a cunt, is insulting to cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> what a presumptuous bunch of libel ...
> 
> rather than those  who  when throuwn life rings, ropes, life jackets etc  moan whinge and comlain it  took too long or the boat that eventually had to be launched was the wrogn shade of orange...  but then again personal responsibility and the left  is never an easy fit ...


Oh fuck off you dull cunt


----------



## StoneRoad (Jan 14, 2017)

zippyRN - please fuck off this advice thread;
you are being disruptive and not helpful to those who post seeking information and support.


----------



## Celt (Jan 14, 2017)

for those going through the process of assesment, this is an old but valuable thread, and includes anyone4 being assessed by any of the companies :-
Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support
I moved from DLA to pip about 12 months ago, supported by folk here,


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 15, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> and when they do, well. Well well well. Would you care to look up the stats for succesful appeals against assements made? Go on, you'll love it. Its over 50% btw



 again i don;t think you  quite understand  why  the appeals are so successful , the   presumoption that  health professionals are sympathetic  and will  deliver a subjective report  rather than empathetic  and objective  seems to drive the  subtext that many 'activists'  are pushing  

the Politically motivated part of the debate , where andwhen it happens  doesn;t come from government it comes from  the  activistis   and their projection


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2017)

yeah and the sky is green. What a load of shit you talk, it isn't activists dictating government policy nor is it activists in charge of all those succesful appeals.


----------



## Libertad (Jan 15, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> again i don;t think you  quite understand  why  the appeals are so successful , the   presumoption that  health professionals are sympathetic  and will  deliver a subjective report  rather than empathetic  and objective  seems to drive the  subtext that many 'activists'  are pushing
> 
> the Politically motivated part of the debate , where andwhen it happens  doesn;t come from government it comes from  the  activistis   and their projection



Pissed again?


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2017)

*grudgingly dons mods hat*

Can people be a little bit less sweary please?


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 15, 2017)

editor said:


> *grudgingly dons mods hat*
> 
> Can people be a little bit less sweary please?



what and  resist the opportunity to  prove once again where the truely 'nasty' people lay on the political spectrum ...   even if the  reason they  object to the person isn't necessarily party politics  but rebuttal of inaccuracies and challengeing  dogma/ fallacies


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2017)

you've rebutted nothing and your thinly vieled badly written disgust is absolutely the MO for right wing moaners. Tell us all how activists cause all the people to win their appeals?


----------



## Celyn (Jan 15, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> what a  resist the opportunity to  prove once again where the truely 'nasty' people lay on the political spectrum ...   even if the  reason they  object tothe person isn't necessarily party politics  but rebuttal of inaccuracies and challengeing  dogma/ fallacies



Fine. Now, could you try expressing it again but in English this time?


----------



## StoneRoad (Jan 15, 2017)

editor said:


> *grudgingly dons mods hat*
> 
> Can people be a little bit less sweary please?



Just the response of people to one user posting on support threads


----------



## zippyRN (Jan 16, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> . Tell us all how activists cause all the people to win their appeals?



 because people  will not listen to the advice that  is given freely  and without malice  by those who  maintain a degree of   dtatchment from  tryingto turn everything into yet another class war ...  

it ikes them being knocked back for providing insufficient evidence  and /or ofcusing on diagnosis before they will listen. It's odd how some groups / populations have  very high first tiem success rates ...  or maybe it's becasue  these people are enouraged  and empowered   by those around them rather  than pited and used as party political pawns


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 16, 2017)

now you are entering into fantasy land bollocks and obsessing about 'party politics'. Always the same with you, a blind unfocused rage that impairs your critical faculties because the lefties. Really, if you have nothing useful to say then you should remove yourself from this thread and start a new one. You can't answer the appeal results with anything other than 'the left the left, activists'  so please, leave the thread to people who want to help rather than denigrate. Genuine ask- start your own thread and take the issue there (the issue in your fevered imagination). You've clearly nothig to add here save sneers and smears so why not do as many have asked you and jog on?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 16, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> because people  will not listen to the advice that  is given freely  and without malice  by those who  maintain a degree of   dtatchment from  tryingto turn everything into yet another class war ...
> 
> it ikes them being knocked back for providing insufficient evidence  and /or ofcusing on diagnosis before they will listen. It's odd how some groups / populations have  very high first tiem success rates ...  or maybe it's becasue  these people are enouraged  and empowered   by those around them rather  than pited and used as party political pawns


Ahahahahaha.


----------



## Libertad (Jan 16, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> because people  will not listen to the advice that  is given freely  and without malice  by those who  maintain a degree of   dtatchment from  tryingto turn everything into yet another class war ...
> 
> it ikes them being knocked back for providing insufficient evidence  and /or ofcusing on diagnosis before they will listen. It's odd how some groups / populations have  very high first tiem success rates ...  or maybe it's becasue  these people are enouraged  and empowered   by those around them rather  than pited and used as party political pawns



Pissed again?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 16, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Pissed again?


And starting the same performance on another support thread: Recording your jobsearch when on Universal Credit


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 16, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> because people  will not listen to the advice that  is given freely  and without malice  by those who  maintain a degree of   dtatchment from  tryingto turn everything into yet another class war ...





zippyRN said:


> With the level of ignorance  over preparation for practice  of health professionals  do peopel  wonder why so few   bother to engage  in discussion ?
> 
> comparatively few of the paramedics in  current clinical practice as solely ' blue  book '  6 +6  weekers ...
> 
> as forthe objection / suprise at a physio  doing the  assessments   i think that says more aobut the commentorsd lack of knowledge  than the suitability of  Physios  and OTs  to be doign the assessments ,  arguably physios have a better baseline knowledge of   assessment and examination than  Nurses as they are expected to  demonstrate  competencies in a more rigourously assessed way  pre -reg ...  ( a physio who cannot auscultate  would not pass  their respiratory / cardio modules ...  where  as  many (civvie) nurses don't get the opportunity to learn this  important  skill  properly  unless they  set out to specifically learn it )


Apart from the fact that your reply to worried a new poster, is in such badly typed jargon its largely meaningless - how is this answer in any way 'advice'?- you try to clarify in a later post (also badly typed and full of jargon) that paramedics have the sort of training that in your opinion makes them well qualified to be Atos assessors. As I said before:


friendofdorothy said:


> You could have enlightened everyone on this thread. Instead you chose to call us ignorant.





zippyRN said:


> it ikes them being knocked back for providing insufficient evidence  and /or ofcusing on diagnosis before they will listen. It's odd how some groups / populations have  very high first tiem success rates ...


 Which 'groups' or 'populations' have a high first time sucess rate? do you have some info on this?  I'd love to hear it.



zippyRN said:


> or maybe it's becasue  these people are enouraged  and empowered   by those around them rather  than pited and used as party political pawns



As members of urban we have between us the experience and knowledge to encourage and empower others. Why don't you help? if you can please do.

I'm not a member of any political party - I've not even heard any MPs of any leaning talking about this, about from those who talk about ill people as if they are all malingering. Do you Mr Zippy see us all as pawns for your own party political scorn? if so please just zip it.

(see editor - no swearing )


----------



## Shampoo Dave (Feb 24, 2017)

Now going through the ATOS assessment. Very sad indeed. Been on DLA for many years after horrendous cancer journey and major operation. The young Occupational Therapist visited my home for an assessment/fact finding mission and I later discover the assessment was abandoned because they felt concerned for their personal safety ? Ha. Now had 6 different letters of further appointments being chopped and changed with days, times and even the town . Now have to have another assessment at their venue instead of my home. The process is a very sad journey for genuine disabled people and the application form and tactics being used are obviously designed to invalidate any claim, regardless . I,ll update more later as I also will probably have to attend a medical too at some point.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Feb 26, 2017)

Welcome to urban Shampoo Dave. Sorry you've suffered such horrendous ill health.

Was the occupational therapist visiting you at home in order to reassess your DLA claim? Or was this for treatment? 

Have you got anyone who can help you go to the assessment centre? Beware, what Atos/maximus/shite private comanies do is not a 'medical', though I think they may call it a 'medical assessment' it is only an assessment for your claim to benefits.


----------



## Shampoo Dave (Mar 2, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Welcome to urban Shampoo Dave. Sorry you've suffered such horrendous ill health.
> 
> Was the occupational therapist visiting you at home in order to reassess your DLA claim? Or was this for treatment?
> 
> Have you got anyone who can help you go to the assessment centre? Beware, what Atos/maximus/shite private comanies do is not a 'medical', though I think they may call it a 'medical assessment' it is only an assessment for your claim to benefits.



it was an assessment for the PIP benefit. A job I suppose someone has to do but no need to use under-hand tactics to try and disqualify a claim and treat even genuine claimants with contempt.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 2, 2017)

report that claimants with mental health problems are being asked "why haven't you killed yourself yet?"

more here

can't think of a lot to say other than


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 3, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> report that claimants with mental health problems are being asked "why haven't you killed yourself yet?"
> 
> more here
> 
> ...


They asked my girlfriend what has stopped her killing herself. Not an easy question to hear, not very tackful - especially as this is not in a supportive theraputic enviroment and is from a person who doesn't give a fuck if you live or die. Reduced me to tears.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 3, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> They asked my girlfriend what has stopped her killing herself. Not an easy question to hear, not very tackful - especially as this is not in a supportive theraputic enviroment and is from a person who doesn't give a fuck if you live or die. Reduced me to tears.


I DO operate a supportive therapeutic environment, and if I felt the need to ask that question, I'd be asking "What got you through?". It's an utterly inappropriate question to be asking in this context, though.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 6, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I DO operate a supportive therapeutic environment, and if I felt the need to ask that question, I'd be asking "What got you through?". It's an utterly inappropriate question to be asking in this context, though.


sorry I don't know about you or your work - are you saying that you work for Atos and 'operate a supportive therapeutic environment'? 

Or that you are therapist asking 'what got you through' in the context of a therapy session?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 6, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry I don't know about you or your work - are you saying that you work for Atos and 'operate a supportive therapeutic environment'?
> 
> Or that you are therapist asking 'what got you through' in the context of a therapy session?


Fuck no, I don't work for ATOS! In all seriousness, I'd get flung out of my professional body for bringing the profession into disrepute if I took an ATOS assessor job...

No, what I mean, and probably didn't put very clearly, is that it can be necessary to talk through with a client how they've managed in previous suicidal episodes. So, even though it would already be a supportive therapeutic environment, I'm not going to say "how come you didn't off yourself - lost your bottle, DIDYA?", but find a more positive way in which to frame the enquiry.

Not that I think that untrained, unqualified people should even be going there anyway, but it would be a thousand times better if the ATOSser was framing it more positively.


----------



## pengaleng (Mar 7, 2017)

yeah in a normal environment it aint a wrong thing, but when the people working for the government to cut off your money it's a whole different thing when yer aware of the fact that they DO actually want you to die cus it saves money - they couldnt give a fuck abpout anything other than their targets and this line of questioning shows their hand.

i got asked by me therapist and answered, if it was atos I woulda screwfaced and went you what???


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 11, 2017)

existentialist said:


> Not that I think that untrained, unqualified people should even be going there anyway, but it would be a thousand times better if the ATOSser was framing it more positively.


 how you handle the issue of suicide as part of a theraputive process is quite a separate subject. that's private, confidential and hopefully the theraputic process will enable an ill person to move on, away from death and focus on living maybe. Least I hope so.

However I cannot see how such an intrusive insensitive enquiry, regarding what stops a person from killing themselves from a 'health professional' in a benefits related assessment, could ever be framed in a 'positive' way. 

It's certainly not a question a want put to my nearest and dearest by a _physiotherapist_ in my presence. When the assessor asked about suicide (and I can't recall the exact wording ) I asked my girlfriend if she wanted me to leave the the room - it was such a personal question, I felt like I was intruding. How could my partner answer that that sort of private question with me/anyone else there?  We hadn't discussed this subject beforehand, its hard enough supporting a partner with mental health issues without discussing death, so I had no idea what she was thinking. She did answer that question and it reduced both of us to tears.

One of the things I pointed out in the assessment was although there had been a diagnosis there had been very little treatment offered, and finally, no help or support at all.  This Atos assessment wasn't a therapy session, there wasn't any support or back up after this.  Even the BBC does a 'If you were affected by any of the issues in this programme call our helpline on ______'  Atos =  NO support. Nothing. Just a long wait while you wonder if all you money will be withdrawn.

What sort of govt administration process is that? I was disgusted at the whole process.


----------



## One dog (Mar 15, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> With the level of ignorance  over preparation for practice  of health professionals  do peopel  wonder why so few   bother to engage  in discussion ?
> 
> comparatively few of the paramedics in  current clinical practice as solely ' blue  book '  6 +6  weekers ...
> 
> as forthe objection / suprise at a physio  doing the  assessments   i think that says more aobut the commentorsd lack of knowledge  than the suitability of  Physios  and OTs  to be doign the assessments ,  arguably physios have a better baseline knowledge of   assessment and examination than  Nurses as they are expected to  demonstrate  competencies in a more rigourously assessed way  pre -reg ...  ( a physio who cannot auscultate  would not pass  their respiratory / cardio modules ...  where  as  many (civvie) nurses don't get the opportunity to learn this  important  skill  properly  unless they  set out to specifically learn it )


What physios know about mental health could be written on the back of a postage stamp. I know this. My cousin qualified 2 years ago and she is so disgusted with the poor quality of education on her physio' degree that she is now going to study for a different profession.

Edit: she has been accepted to study medicine.


----------



## One dog (Mar 15, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> There are no hoops to jump through -  this is a view expressed  by those who are either ignorant or  ideologically   bound against  the  system,  Contrary to  the widely held  belief of the paranoid  left   no one in government or the civil service wants to do things for the fun of it or as a job  creation scheme ( the  irony is most of the job creation in the public sector is at the behest of the unions), it is a symptom of the fundamental immaturity of many  'activists' that they are unwilling to   understand  their  impact on others  or  simple  things like the duty of organisations to  prove they are spending   taxpayers money in an effective way.



I take it the RN in Zippy RN, stands for registered nurse, unless I am wrong.

In any case, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about ZippyRN.

I doubt you have ever attended a WCA or ever met anyone who has, unless of course, you are one of the nurses doing the assessments.


----------



## One dog (Mar 15, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> what a presumptuous bunch of libel ...
> 
> rather than those  who  when throuwn life rings, ropes, life jackets etc  moan whinge and comlain it  took too long or the boat that eventually had to be launched was the wrogn shade of orange...  but then again personal responsibility and the left  is never an easy fit ...



Are you suggesting that people who become too ill to continue to work should take personal responsibility?

If you are not saying that then what are you saying. You don't provide a very articulate account of your opinions.


----------



## One dog (Mar 15, 2017)

zippyRN said:


> what and  resist the opportunity to  prove once again where the truely 'nasty' people lay on the political spectrum ...   even if the  reason they  object to the person isn't necessarily party politics  but rebuttal of inaccuracies and challengeing  dogma/ fallacies


You are not challenging dogma or fallacies - you are a proponent of them.


----------



## One dog (Mar 15, 2017)

Shampoo Dave said:


> it was an assessment for the PIP benefit. A job I suppose someone has to do but no need to use under-hand tactics to try and disqualify a claim and treat even genuine claimants with contempt.



This is a good source of help for people with PIP and WCA issues:-

Welfare Central Forum - Index


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 26, 2018)

I see 38 Dgrees are doing a campaign about private companies acting illegally again. I've signed their petition. 



> Dear friends,
> 
> I just signed the petition "Stop making people travel unfair distances for disability assessments" and wanted to ask if you could add your name too.
> 
> ...


----------



## Paul007 (Feb 5, 2019)

Chris.H.1961 said:


> All this talk of ATOS not doing reassessments because of this or that reason are driving me insane. I was awarded ESA May 2013 after being moved from IB and was placed in support group.
> 
> I was originally told I wouldn't be reassessed for at least 12 months so imagine my surprise to get another form to fill in in mid Jan this year. I didn't do it right away so they sent me a reminder that it was due before 13th Feb, which it was, just. So imagine how thrilled, like everyone else, I was to hear all the news that they were losing their contract because they are 'unfit for purpose' etc and no-one on the benefit already would be reassessed if they sent forms back after 20th Jan.
> 
> ...


I know this is an old post but I was awarded ESA in Jan then I got a form again to fill in April that same year, its a joke the DWP are doing reassessments ever year until you fail and they fail you even thought your unfit for work its a proper joke. Just read someone in a wheelchair and cldnt walk was found fit for work against there doctors advice


----------



## friendofdorothy (Feb 5, 2019)

Paul007 said:


> I know this is an old post but I was awarded ESA in Jan then I got a form again to fill in April that same year, its a joke the DWP are doing reassessments ever year until you fail and they fail you even thought your unfit for work its a proper joke. Just read someone in a wheelchair and cldnt walk was found fit for work against there doctors advice


That is so shit - are they allowed to do this so soon?

Welcome to Urban Paul007 I found these threads very helpful a few years back when I was helping someone ill their with Atos assessment. I'm not very knowledgable about these processes myself, but hopefully someone will be along soon who will know


----------

