# Extinction Rebellion



## Jeremiah18.17 (Oct 27, 2018)

This initiative from Rising Up appears to be gathering support nationally and internationally and could snowball into something as big or bigger than the Occupy Movement........Hopefully with better outcomes. Seems to have captured some of the feeling of the moment after the latest IPCC statement.

All kicking off with a declaration of rebellion in Parliament Square on Wednesday 31st October.

Rising Up!


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

i saw some flyposting in dalston recently

here's a handy hint: if flyposting in dalston, don't do it on a backstreet where the only people to see it are aggrieved librarians and cyclists


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Oct 27, 2018)

Something of a “Committee of 100” feel about this statement of support from 90 odd academics:

Facts about our ecological crisis are incontrovertible. We must take action | Letters


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Something of a “Committee of 100” feel about this statement of support from 90 odd academics:
> 
> Facts about our ecological crisis are incontrovertible. We must take action | Letters


committee of 94


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Oct 27, 2018)

Monbiot’s declaration of support:
As the fracking protesters show, a people’s rebellion is the only way to fight climate breakdown | George Monbiot


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Monbiot’s declaration of support:
> As the fracking protesters show, a people’s rebellion is the only way to fight climate breakdown | George Monbiot


monobot's not quite grasped what a rebellion entails


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Oct 27, 2018)

Regardless of the support of well meaning liberal civil disobedience types I think that if this takes off, this has the potential to become much bigger and more threatening to the powers that be. Anyhow, opening up of more fronts of struggle is usually a positive sign. And it is a very striking symbol they are using, showing a good understanding of the power of symbols - note the number of psychologists in that list:

Extinction Symbol


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

tbh the climate catastrophe coupled with the increasing political uncertainty on the world stage is going to lead to a great increase in conflict


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## Brainaddict (Oct 27, 2018)

I'd love to see such a movement grow, but it feels like it needs a clearer (and probably economic) conflict as a spark. My sense is that mass movements need clear, obtainable wins for ordinary people, arising from everyday conflicts, as well as needing the bigger ideas about the future.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

i thought it was a few students with a stepladder and floury paste from the quality of the posters


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## LDC (Oct 27, 2018)

I have been seeing this on t'internet a bit the last few weeks, was going to post something here for starting a discussion. 

It looks a bit unlikely to take off to me tbh, when you see that one of their big events is non-violence training in Glastonbury and one of their promoted videos is some nonsense about tax disobedience it looks like a poor attempt at predictable liberal activism rather than anything that could catalyze a larger struggle.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I have been seeing this on t'internet a bit the last few weeks, was going to post something here for starting a discussion.
> 
> It looks a bit unlikely to take off to me tbh, when you see that one of their big events is non-violence training in Glastonbury and one of their promoted videos is some nonsense about tax disobedience it looks like a poor attempt at predictable liberal activism rather than anything that could catalyze a larger struggle.


at first i thought it was intended to be a cross between the sack parliament attempt of 2006 and guerrilla gardening, which would likely be far better than what it actually sounds like


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## LDC (Oct 27, 2018)

Putting pressure on Greenpeace...


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## Argonia (Oct 27, 2018)

Sounds promising


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## rich! (Oct 28, 2018)

I went along to a local event, and it actually seemed pretty good. There's a strong NVDA/civil disobedience playbook they are working from, they have a sensible model for getting engagement, and their basic points are pretty solid.

And they followed up with emails a couple of days later - no Facebook needed. Bonus points in my book.


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

This appears to be an 'alternative' socio-cultural event presumably lead by the current incarnation of Artists/Squatters/Activists that made up the Reclaim the Streets/Newbury Bypass of a generation ago. It sounds like fun, I can remember dangling from a Tripod near Holloway Rd in 1999 BUT let's not pretend it's actually going to lead to any change in the structure of society,


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It looks a bit unlikely to take off to me tbh, when you see that one of their big events is non-violence training in Glastonbury and one of their promoted videos is some nonsense about tax disobedience it looks like a poor attempt at predictable liberal activism rather than anything that could catalyze a larger struggle.



I'm delighted to see Non Violent education, what makes you think 'Violent' action would catalyze a larger struggle? What do you think it would achieve other than spending 4 hours being Kettled?


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## LDC (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I'm delighted to see Non Violent education, what makes you think 'Violent' action would catalyze a larger struggle? What do you think it would achieve other than spending 4 hours being Kettled?



It's a long discussion I can't be bothered to have, but for a start to assume any 'violent' action is inevitably tied to being kettled is incorrect. And it's less about the form of the action (violent or non-violent, even if we do agree on what each of those things mean) but there's a whole host of assumptions and politics that usually go with calling something non-violent.

Not perfect, but these are a start:

Full text of "Pathology of Pacifism"

How Nonviolence Protects the State


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

'Non violence is racist'...oh give me strength. American armchair posturing. Violence will achieve nothing but propaganda for the Tory Government and a few 2 year stretches handed out.


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## LDC (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Violence will achieve nothing



Just in the UK, or globally? And just at the moment, or at any time in history?


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just in the UK, or globally? And just at the moment, or at any time in history?


UK right now


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## NoXion (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> 'Non violence is racist'...oh give me strength. American armchair posturing. Violence will achieve nothing but propaganda for the Tory Government and a few 2 year stretches handed out.



Whereas sitting in a circle singing Kumbaya is certain to bring the government down to its knees.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

NoXion said:


> Whereas sitting in a circle singing Kumbaya is certain to bring the government down to its knees.


maybe michael gove, who likes nothing more than a sing-song round a fire


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> 'Non violence is racist'...oh give me strength. American armchair posturing. Violence will achieve nothing but propaganda for the Tory Government and a few 2 year stretches handed out.


why do you think it should now be so ineffective when it has won so many things in the past?


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> why do you think it should now be so ineffective when it has won so many things in the past?


Such as where?


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

NoXion said:


> Whereas sitting in a circle singing Kumbaya is certain to bring the government down to its knees.



You think a bunch of Anarchists will bring the government to its knees by smashing up a MacDonalds?


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## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

no we have to smash up more things than that


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Such as where?


yeh. you've not come across the concept 'war' before, have you? i blame the government for their pisspoor education policies.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> You think a bunch of Anarchists will bring the government to its knees by smashing up a MacDonalds?


oh i think we've seen you somewhere before, my lovely


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## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

the state is already violent heeby


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## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

one might even say, if one were so inclined, that it is always already


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> oh i think we've seen you somewhere before, my lovely


Possibly...who knows. if you live in London, quite possibly.

But come on lets hear how smashing up MacDonalds will bring the state to its knees


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the state is already violent heeby


yes, and very very good at it, that's why they are the state and you aren't.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Possibly...who knows. if you live in London, quite possibly.
> 
> But come on lets hear how smashing up MacDonalds will bring the state to its knees


i have not made the claim it will


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## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> yes, and very very good at it, that's why they are the state and you aren't.



so good that you could even say it has monopoly on violence, and there's nothing violent about fighting back unless you think its monopoly is legitimated by the fact that it exists


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i have not made the claim it will


So please outline a scenario where the use of violence by this 'extinction-rebellion group will achieve anything useful?


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> so good that you could even say it has monopoly on violence, and there's nothing violent about fighting back unless you think its monopoly is legitimated by the fact that it exists


yes it has a virtual monopoly on it and fighting is always violence whether or not you think it ethical.


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## eoin_k (Oct 29, 2018)




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## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

no I'm not at least


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> So please outline a scenario where the use of violence by this 'extinction-rebellion group will achieve anything useful?


if they were to machine-gun the cabinet it would do no harm.


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## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

so you do have some good practical suggestions not just snarky rejoinders


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> so you do have some good practical suggestions not just snarky rejoinders


yeh it's something you could learn to emulate


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## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

not to your highly exacting but totally inscrutable standards I'm sure


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> not to your highly exacting but totally inscrutable standards I'm sure


i think you'll find the relevant standard is iso 75822


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if they were to machine-gun the cabinet it would do no harm.


As I thought...just silly responses


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> so you do have some good practical suggestions not just snarky rejoinders



yes...Convince the electorate to back you then win a General Election and then perform well enough as a Government that people will continue electing you.

if you can't win an election you certainly can't win a civil war


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> As I thought...just silly responses


They're better responses than you deserve


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> yes...Convince the electorate to back you then win a General Election and then perform well enough as a Government that people will continue electing you.
> 
> if you can't win an election you certainly can't win a civil war


How soon the Bolsheviks are forgotten


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> yes...Convince the electorate to back you then win a General Election and then perform well enough as a Government that people will continue electing you.
> 
> if you can't win an election you certainly can't win a civil war


That's not merely a silly post it's a fucking stupid post


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> That's not merely a silly post it's a fucking stupid post


yes...which you can't reply to so resort to idiocy


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> yes...which you can't reply to so resort to idiocy


I have replied to it. Twice.


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> How soon the Bolsheviks are forgotten



Yeah....Russia wasn't exactly an established democracy in 1917 was it?   You seriously think some sort of vanguard Leninists can defeat the government of any western nation?  Or is it the forces of Anarchism?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Yeah....Russia wasn't exactly an established democracy in 1917 was it?   You seriously think some sort of vanguard Leninists can defeat the government of any western nation?  Or is it the forces of Anarchism?


Did they teach the Second World War at your school?


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Did they teach the Second World War at your school?


They did


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> They did


You must have missed the bit where they told you about the USSR defeating Germany then


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> You must have missed the bit where they told you about the USSR defeating Germany then


rotflmao
You really descend to that sort of Nonsense. that as you well know was a country not a vanguardist party.
There is ZERO chance of a change of government by revolution in the UK 
and you can't construct a scenario where its remotely possible. You are just Spanish Civil war larpers


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## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

EtA, y'know what? no.
not playing that game.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> rotflmao
> You really descend to that sort of Nonsense. that as you well know was a country not a vanguardist party.
> There is ZERO chance of a change of government by revolution in the UK
> and you can't construct a scenario where its remotely possible. You are just Spanish Civil war larpers


The Bolsheviks / cpsu were a vanguardist party


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## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

I'd start by disabling every CCTV camera in the country, all on the same night. Obviously not by myself, so you know .. recruit.


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> The Bolsheviks / cpsu were a vanguardist party



I dont think Russia in 1917 bears any resemblance to the UK today. If you think a Bolshevik party could sieze power today you must be very prone to fantasy


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I dont think Russia in 1917 bears any resemblance to the UK today. If you think a Bolshevik party could sieze power today you must be very prone to fantasy


I've answered the questions you posed. If, as appears the case, you wanted different answers then you should have asked different questions. You must have been a great disappointment to your mother.


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## NoXion (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> You think a bunch of Anarchists will bring the government to its knees by smashing up a MacDonalds?



No. 

But that's because of a lack of popular support, not because of violence. The dichotomy between violence and non-violence is, I contend, a false one. Sometimes it is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I see no value in making a principle out of something that should be a matter of pragmatism.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

NoXion said:


> No.
> 
> But that's because of a lack of popular support, not because of violence. The dichotomy between violence and non-violence is, I contend, a false one. Sometimes it is appropriate, sometimes it isn't. I see no value in making a principle out of something that should be a matter of pragmatism.


It is one tool in the box


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## rich! (Oct 29, 2018)

I now know one person who has refused to work with them on the grounds that their stance on NVDA includes "shop anyone who seems violent to the police"...


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## LDC (Oct 29, 2018)

rich! said:


> I now know one person who has refused to work with them on the grounds that their stance on NVDA includes "shop anyone who seems violent to the police"...



Official stance of the organization, or something one person from there said?


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## smokedout (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Possibly...who knows. if you live in London, quite possibly.
> 
> But come on lets hear how smashing up MacDonalds will bring the state to its knees



I lived in Catford prior to the 2011 riots.  Almost every day I would see a young kid, usually black but not always, getting stopped and searched.  I got stopped a couple of times myself, both times illegally.  After the riots I never saw it happen again.

The state will always pretend it doesn't care about violence, but the truth is nothing makes them brick it more than violent disorder on the streets.  We only have to be lucky once after all.  And whilst in most cases it will not bring a state to it's knees (until it does) the state will quietly respond and often aquiesce, as happened with the poll tax.


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## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

Don't disagree with you, smokedout, but let's not also forget that the main thing that stopped the Poll Tax was mass non payment across the country. Though yes, the rioting was a major nail in the coffin .


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## rich! (Oct 30, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Official stance of the organization, or something one person from there said?



Official briefing for people doing support roles, I believe.


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 30, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I've answered the questions you posed. If, as appears the case, you wanted different answers then you should have asked different questions. You must have been a great disappointment to your mother.


Hmm, and you weren't? How much was your education and what did you do with it?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Hmm, and you weren't? How much was your education and what did you do with it?


no, no I wasn't. I have no notion how much my education cost - and I don't believe I'm alone in that. What have I done with it? Well, recently I've shown the paucity of your knowledge.


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## heebyjeeby (Oct 30, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> no, no I wasn't. I have no notion how much my education cost - and I don't believe I'm alone in that. hat have I done with it? Well, recently I've shown the paucity of your knowledge.



So you are basically a no hoper who was privately educated but can't get a career


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## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> So you are basically a no hoper who was privately educated but can't get a career


you asked how much my education cost. I have no idea how much the government spent on it. How much did your education cost? From where I'm sitting every single penny was wasted.


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## smokedout (Oct 31, 2018)

Arrests happening at Parliament Square now according to twitter: News about #extinctionrebellion on Twitter


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 31, 2018)

15 environmental protesters arrested at civil disobedience campaign in London

I went along this morning (I had a day off) though didn't stay too long. The thing that I found the most unusual was hearing people saying outright "we are going to break the law. We'll get arrested, but we'll continue to break the law until something gets done." It was a very polite rally but there was a lot of anger and determination in the speeches. I had an idea that there would be some actual arrestable civil disobedience, somewhat confirmed when they were handing out bust cards with flyers.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 31, 2018)

BTW maybe I should move this to the UK pol forum? I increasingly feel that the protest forum can make things hard to find in general.


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## rich! (Oct 31, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The thing that I found the most unusual was hearing people saying outright "we are going to break the law. We'll get arrested, but we'll continue to break the law until something gets done."



Yeah, that was the most impressive thing for me;they were building on solid analysis of how NVDA succeeds, which is to have people willing to be arrested go and get arrested.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

rich! said:


> Yeah, that was the most impressive thing for me;they were building on solid analysis of how NVDA succeeds, which is to have people willing to be arrested go and get arrested.


No, nvda doesn't work like that. It works when the action, generally disruption, succeeds, which is helped by an acceptance of the risk of arrest as an occupational hazard. Going out willing to be nicked and being nicked is as much a measure of success as the auld body count in vietnam

How did this action succeed? What were its aims? I doubt hours in cells was their chosen metric of success


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 31, 2018)

I would say that the attitude that you are pretty likely to be arrested and that it's all part of the process of what you're doing is very important. As well as preparing you for something that's going to happen eventually, it takes away a lot of the force of the tactics to prevent you acting at all. It's a mindset. If you fight you will get hit; the fear of getting hit may stop you fighting in the first place.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 31, 2018)

The other thing that I empathised with was the level of outrage and frustration about how such enormous ecological damage has been done, continues to be done and continues to be ignored. I feel this daily but it mostly just manifests itself in extremely black humour and the tendency to say "well we'll all be fighting in the Thunderdome for beans by then anyway" when anyone brings up long-term politics.


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## rich! (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> No, nvda doesn't work like that. It works when the action, generally disruption, succeeds, which is helped by an acceptance of the risk of arrest as an occupational hazard. Going out willing to be nicked and being nicked is as much a measure of success as the auld body count in vietnam
> 
> How did this action succeed? What were its aims? I doubt hours in cells was their chosen metric of success


As I understand it they are not doing "NVDA as shutdown" like, say the digger divers at  Newbury, or the lorry surfers at PNR. They are doing NVDA as protest/declaration, so more in a Ghandian or NAACP approach.

I am several days away from my books but when they presented the reasoning it resonated as a reflection of good analysis of the occasions when NVDA has succeeded in changing social mores and achieved a revolutionary change without violence.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

rich! said:


> As I understand it they are not doing "NVDA as shutdown" like, say the digger divers at  Newbury, or the lorry surfers at PNR. They are doing NVDA as protest/declaration, so more in a Ghandian or NAACP approach.
> 
> I am several days away from my books but when they presented the reasoning it resonated as a reflection of good analysis of the occasions when NVDA has succeeded in changing social mores and achieved a revolutionary change without violence.


I'm not persuaded that has ever happened


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## rich! (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not persuaded that has ever happened


Hence my urge to check my references, which I am currently a long way from.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 1, 2018)

A friend of mine is interested in this and despite my scepticism I might go along to something with them. News that 'we' have killed off 60% of all animals does have me _slightly _annoyed and worried for the future, and it's depressing that so few people seem bothered/empowered enough to do anything about it.


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## LDC (Nov 1, 2018)

I totally appreciate the urgency and passion they express about the ecological disaster we're currently in and that we are blindly hurtling towards a even greater one. I do of course wish there would be some upsurge in mass resistance to it, and I'd even not be too critical if it had shitty politics and was reformist, so long as it worked and on some level gave results.

I fear this that it is more likely to be another distraction from the much harder political work that needs to be done, that while not specifically 'ecological' is more likely to be productive in both its short term methods and longer term possibilities.


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## Borp (Nov 1, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> News that 'we' have killed off 60% of all animals.



The reporting of that story annoyed me slightly. It was reported as if 60% of animals have been killed. Which isn't the case. The numbers are from the living planet index which show that average population numbers measured by the index have reduced by 60% since 1970. The index measures about 16,000 populations of 4000 vertebrate species.

Still bad of course. But the reporting seemed a bit inaccurate.

Edit: this explains a bit more, although I'm not sure it adds that much light Crunching numbers: the data behind the Living Planet Index


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## Delphian Sibyl (Nov 1, 2018)

interesting thread.. why not come along on 17th November and see for yourselves. Yesterday was incredible - you'll be sorry to miss out - and we will miss you all not being there <3 ... and in 10 years time it will be too late. We can try and we refuse to go quietly.XR – Action Begins – eXtinction Rebellion


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## Delphian Sibyl (Nov 1, 2018)

and follow my FB if you want a personal/messy/ half-cocked but real insight into how I experienced it all.https://www.facebook.com/zoe.hatch.3762


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## Delphian Sibyl (Nov 1, 2018)

double posted in error


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## LDC (Nov 1, 2018)

Delphian Sibyl said:


> interesting thread.. why not come along on 17th November and see for yourselves. Yesterday was incredible - you'll be sorry to miss out - and we will miss you all not being there <3 ... and in 10 years time it will be too late. We can try and we refuse to go quietly.XR – Action Begins – eXtinction Rebellion



Why are Extinction Rebellion writing out the parts of social change movements from the past that don't fit your non-violence format? Lots of lauding (for example) the ANC and US civil rights movement as examples of how non-violence alone has worked.

For sure if you think it's essential for the state we're in here and now, but fuck off with this re-writing history nonsense, at best it makes you look like you have a poor understanding of social change, at worst it makes you look like cynical politicos, something you rail against.


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## manji (Nov 1, 2018)

(private) Extinction Rebellion – Banner Making – Partisan


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## 8ball (Nov 1, 2018)

manji said:


> (private) Extinction Rebellion – Banner Making – Partisan



This is "banner making (taps nose knowlingly)", right?


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## smokedout (Nov 1, 2018)

> We demand the UK declares a state of emergency, takes action to create a zero carbon economy by 2025, and creates a national assembly of ordinary people to decide what our zero carbon future will look like.



XR – Rebel – eXtinction Rebellion

Hmmm, do you think they know what happens when a state of emergency is declared?


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## mojo pixy (Nov 2, 2018)

_We demand the UK ... creates a national assembly of ordinary people ..._

super cute. a demand!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

smokedout said:


> XR – Rebel – eXtinction Rebellion
> 
> Hmmm, do you think they know what happens when a state of emergency is declared?


hint for extinction rebellion



Spoiler


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## Nigel (Nov 9, 2018)

Interesting & Informative !


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## yield (Nov 10, 2018)

Nigel said:


> Interesting & Informative !


It is. Waiting to be arrested is nuts but fair play to them.


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## ska invita (Nov 10, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> _We demand the UK ... creates a national assembly of ordinary people ..._
> 
> super cute. a demand!


Good critique of those demands here
Why I'm sceptical about the Extinction Rebellion initiative (and why I hope I'm wrong) | Peace News

In his latest book, _How We Win_, veteran activist George Lakey (who's been involved in quite a few winning campaigns over the last five decades) writes that:

_‘Winning requires choice._

_‘Some people seek to mobilize people around a general concern, like climate or war or poverty, but such mobilizations are like one-off protests—they don’t win anything. Martin Luther King, Jr., discovered this in Albany, Georgia, where the campaign goal was to “end segregation.”_

_'In 1961 the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) and other groups started the direct action campaign. It was joined by Dr. King late in the year and continued well into 1962 before giving up._

_'King’s reflection on the loss reinforces the importance of choosing goals carefully: “The mistake I made there was to protest against segregation generally rather than against a single and distinct facet of it. Our protest was so vague that we got nothing, and the people were left very depressed and in despair.”'_

Lakey continues: '[W]e make progress on our concerns when we campaign with a clear demand. Multiple campaigns on that concern build a movement. Multiple movements can then join and become a movement of movements, opening the door to a whole new level of justice impossible
previously.’ [1]

While Extinction Rebellion does have three demands, these strike me as either pretty vague (‘That the Government must tell the truth about how deadly our situation is’) or almost impossibly [2] utopian (the Government enacting ‘legally-binding policies to reduce carbon emissions in the UK to net zero by 2025’ and the creation of ‘a Citizens’ Assembly to oversee [these and other] changes’).


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## Argonia (Nov 12, 2018)

Climate protesters blockade energy department


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## A380 (Nov 12, 2018)




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## Jeremiah18.17 (Nov 14, 2018)

This is actually not bad from Monbiot, and seems to go further than the XR “Demands”:
The Earth is in a death spiral. It will take radical action to save us | George Monbiot


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Nov 14, 2018)

Meanwhile, in another part of the Forest..... calls for a worldwide general strike on 15th January.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 14, 2018)

Some arrests already.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 14, 2018)

Their blog seems to have been written by some kind of millenial typewriter monkey.



> *The purposes of XR blog:*
> 1)
> 
> Using literature to uphold the ten principles and values of Rising Up!beginning with the first principle: ‘We have a shared vision for change’. XR is founded upon and guided by these principles.
> ...



Two questions:
1. What?
2. Seriously, what the fuck are you on about?


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## 8ball (Nov 14, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Their blog seems to have been written by some kind of millenial typewriter monkey.
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. What?
> 2. Seriously, what the fuck are you on about?



First rule of XR is you don't  at the corporate values or mission statement of XR.

A mate of mine has invited me to a local XR meeting - seems they are easing people in with the carrot of "lots of non-arrestable positions to be filled".
I'm not too sure what to make of it yet.


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## ska invita (Nov 15, 2018)

Read the timetable of rituals... Can't copy from phone
"ref"%3A"3"%2C"action_history"%3A"null"%7D&aref=3


Tbf I don't think this is part of official XR activity


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## Brainaddict (Nov 17, 2018)

Anyone on one of the central London bridges at the moment?


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## rich! (Nov 17, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Anyone on one of the central London bridges at the moment?


Just went over waterloo, nicely blocked


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Read the timetable of rituals... Can't copy from phone
> "ref"%3A"3"%2C"action_history"%3A"null"%7D&aref=3
> 
> 
> Tbf I don't think this is part of official XR activity



i see they reference ruddy yurts' 1987 book: peoples throughout history have rediscovered *ancient techniques of infinite potential
*
existentialist Libertad


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## maomao (Nov 17, 2018)

Waterloo's definitely blocked. London Bridge was still open a few minutes ago. Anyone know which bridges are affected?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

maomao said:


> Waterloo's definitely blocked. London Bridge was still open a few minutes ago. Anyone know which bridges are affected?


why not try TfL Traffic News (@TfLTrafficNews) on Twitter


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## Brainaddict (Nov 17, 2018)

It's Lambeth to Blackfriars I think. So Vauxhall, London and Tower Bridges not targetted. Don't know if they felt they didn't have the numbers to do them all.


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## maomao (Nov 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> why not try TfL Traffic News (@TfLTrafficNews) on Twitter


I have that open anyway. I had an urgent reason for knowing and it wasn't clear yet.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

there's this too Traffic news for Central london | Live reports from AA Roadwatch | AA


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## maomao (Nov 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> there's this too Traffic news for Central london | Live reports from AA Roadwatch | AA



Got that too. I wanted to know if Vauxhall Bridge was going to get done soon as well. The situation is resolved now.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 17, 2018)

36 people arrested on Lambeth Bridge apparently!


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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Such as where?


You serious?


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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> 36 people arrested on Lambeth Bridge apparently!



How does one take a piss when locked on with both hands?


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## rich! (Nov 17, 2018)

TopCat said:


> How does one take a piss when locked on with both hands?


Bucket.


----------



## klang (Nov 17, 2018)

TopCat said:


> How does one take a piss when locked on with both hands?


imagine something really good would happen and you couldn't join the applause.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

TopCat said:


> How does one take a piss when locked on with both hands?


in your pants


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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2018)

rich! said:


> Bucket.


Who would volunteer to take your penis out, hold it and shake it after? This lot are disciplined if they have all that sorted.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

rich! said:


> Bucket.


yeh. how would you open the zip and adjust the bucket while your hands are chained?


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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> in your pants


It would be sods law I needed a massive dump that weighed the same as my head.


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 17, 2018)




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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. how would you open the zip and adjust the bucket while your hands are chained?


You would need to be naked _down below. _


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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2018)

eoin_k said:


>


Really? Which bit goes where?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Really? Which bit goes where?


and how would you attach it while you're locked on?


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## TopCat (Nov 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> and how would you attach it while you're locked on?


I have asked much of others on demos but never this.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I have asked much of others on demos but never this.


it is an ask too far


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I have asked much of others on demos but never this.


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## not-bono-ever (Nov 17, 2018)

guess who tried to get to NW london in a rental van today ? I left at 10AM and have just arrived back via The blackwall tunnel. 6 hours to do a r/t of 20 km tops.grrrr. i have just destroyed the planet personally with my emissions


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> guess who tried to get to NW london in a rental van today ? I left at 10AM and have just arrived back via The blackwall tunnel. 6 hours to do a r/t of 20 km tops.grrrr. i have just destroyed the planet personally with my emissions


yeh not sure the re lot really thought through the impact their demonstration might have


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## rich! (Nov 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh not sure the re lot really thought through the impact their demonstration might have


I think they did.

A 1%change in London emissions on a Saturday is irrelevant

Changing the entire UK approach to climate extinction would seem to be a useful piece of work.

Watching people treat climate change protest as "it makes it harder for someone to go to work so you should not protest" is the epitome of the "biggest problem is the moderate liberal".


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## eoin_k (Nov 17, 2018)

Part of me feels that doing this on a weekend showed a lack of strategic ambition, but another is relieved not to be clogged up in even worse gridlock than usual while working on Monday.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2018)

rich! said:


> I think they did.
> 
> A 1%change in London emissions on a Saturday is irrelevant
> 
> ...


My journey to work, and indeed my journey back again, wholly unaffected by this event: must try harder. Didn't realise not-bono-ever was doing something for work, thought it was a chore he'd been putting off


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## Brainaddict (Nov 17, 2018)

eoin_k said:


> Part of me feels that doing this on a weekend showed a lack of strategic ambition, but another is relieved not to be clogged up in even worse gridlock than usual while working on Monday.


Yeah, I thought of that, but suspect they were just nervous about how many people they could get out on a weekday. If it snowballs as they want and they can get more bodies involved I suspect they will call a weekday blockade.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 17, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Yeah, I thought of that, but suspect they were just nervous about how many people they could get out on a weekday. If it snowballs as they want and they can get more bodies involved I suspect they will call a weekday blockade.


They have been doing weekday actions - it's just that this one is bigger, and also in concert with others around the world.


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 17, 2018)

C4 news reporting 70 arrests??!!


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 17, 2018)

Hat off to em, & least they’re out there causing mischief. Need another March for the Alternative 2011 smash up to coincide with this stuff.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2018)

rich! said:


> I think they did.
> 
> A 1%change in London emissions on a Saturday is irrelevant
> 
> ...



ER are moderate liberals. They're all about asking the state to fix everything and being nice to coppers in the meantime.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Hat off to em, & least they’re out there causing mischief. Need another March for the Alternative 2011 smash up to coincide with this stuff.


2009?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> C4 news reporting 70 arrests??!!



That seems to be the whole strategy, get as many people arrested as possible. 

If the police didn't invent ER I bet they wish they had.


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> 2009?



March 26th 2011


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> March 26th 2011


Ah yes, it slipped my mind


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## not-bono-ever (Nov 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> My journey to work, and indeed my journey back again, wholly unaffected by this event: must try harder. Didn't realise not-bono-ever was doing something for work, thought it was a chore he'd been putting off



very much a chore. i try not to go north of the river unless i have to. second hand sofa collection rather than getting a new one. its a bit masochistic to want to drive across central london at the weekend out of choice


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## not-bono-ever (Nov 18, 2018)

my personal hell aside, i dont have an issue with this kind of disruptive  action - it garners publicity and no one got hurt


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## rich! (Nov 19, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> ER are moderate liberals. They're all about asking the state to fix everything and being nice to coppers in the meantime.



One interesting (for me) thing about the demo was the teach-in aspect of it. The bridge I was on had a lot of the Lancashire Nanas there, and the PA was being used to inform people about the anti-fracking protests and demos going on. So exposing some of the moderate liberals to other activities going in.

So yes, it is designed to draw in moderate liberals. And some of them will become more solid activists, while others will provide the water in which the fish swims (as it were)


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## NoXion (Nov 19, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> That seems to be the whole strategy, get as many people arrested as possible.
> 
> If the police didn't invent ER I bet they wish they had.



Do you really think that more radical action from ER would get fewer people arrested? I doubt that it would.

I've got my misgivings about this group, but I don't think that yours is a fair criticism.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2018)

NoXion said:


> Do you really think that more radical action from ER would get fewer people arrested? I doubt that it would.
> 
> I've got my misgivings about this group, but I don't think that yours is a fair criticism.



There is such a thing as not getting caught.

Now you have seventy people who are gonna spend the next six months or a year dealing with court cases and lawyers. All for an action that wasn't 'direct' at all. It was a publicity stunt.

I've done the get arrested on purpose model of eco activism. It's shit, but it has a purpose if you pick an actual target, and no 'getting yourself in the papers' is not a valid target.


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Nov 19, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> There is such a thing as not getting caught.
> 
> Now you have seventy people who are gonna spend the next six months or a year dealing with court cases and lawyers. All for an action that wasn't 'direct' at all. It was a publicity stunt.
> 
> I've done the get arrested on purpose model of eco activism. It's shit, but it has a purpose if you pick an actual target, and no 'getting yourself in the papers' is not a valid target.


 
To be fair to XR this was just a start - the serious stuff comes where they try to, as promised, cause economic disruption and loss.  This would probably mean attempts at shutting down parts of the City of London and/or, for example, fuel distribution centres.  These types of actions will of course be treated far more seriously by authorities - probably coming under definition of domestic extremism if not a higher designation.  In that light, these initial actions can be seen as a “lead in”, “blooding” a new wave of activists, so to speak, in a less threatening environment that the state does not take as seriously (after all what is the closure of even 5 bridges in London - on one day - in the grand scheme of things? )
The mettle of XR will be seen when, and if it can, actually cause effective disruption to Capital rather than symbolic disruption to The Capital.....


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> To be fair to XR this was just a start - the serious stuff comes where they try to, as promised, cause economic disruption and loss.  This would probably mean attempts at shutting down parts of the City of London and/or, for example, fuel distribution centres.  These types of actions will of course be treated far more seriously by authorities - probably coming under definition of domestic extremism if not a higher designation.  In that light, these initial actions can be seen as a “lead in”, “blooding” a new wave of activists, so to speak, in a less threatening environment that the state does not take as seriously (after all what is the closure of even 5 bridges in London - on one day - in the grand scheme of things? )
> The mettle of XR will be seen when, and if it can, actually cause effective disruption to Capital rather than symbolic disruption to The Capital.....



But their ethos, such as it is, is non-conforntational. If they do something that genuinely threatens capital they will come up against the forces of the state and at that point the whole 'be nice to coppers' thing becomes 'lie down and get beaten'.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 19, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> But their ethos, such as it is, is non-conforntational. If they do something that genuinely threatens capital they will come up against the forces of the state and at that point the whole 'be nice to coppers' thing becomes 'lie down and get beaten'.


Well yes. If you push non-violence as a tactic far enough it does involve lying down and getting beaten sometimes. Are they pretending anything else? I don't think they're saying that NVDA will result in people having a nice time.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Well yes. If you push non-violence as a tactic far enough it does involve lying down and getting beaten sometimes. Are they pretending anything else? I don't think they're saying that NVDA will result in people having a nice time.


it should do though. i can't be the only person who recalls the rts picnic down by shepherds bush, nothing violent about that iirc


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## Brainaddict (Nov 19, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> There is such a thing as not getting caught.
> 
> Now you have seventy people who are gonna spend the next six months or a year dealing with court cases and lawyers. All for an action that wasn't 'direct' at all. It was a publicity stunt.
> 
> I've done the get arrested on purpose model of eco activism. It's shit, but it has a purpose if you pick an actual target, and no 'getting yourself in the papers' is not a valid target.


I think the tactic is different from getting arrested for blocking a coal mine or something. It seems to me that they want to push until thousands of people are arrested, and the number keeps on rising. You might disagree with it as a tactic, but it's not the same as a few people getting arrested for a one-off action.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I think the tactic is different from getting arrested for blocking a coal mine or something. It seems to me that they want to push until thousands of people are arrested, and the number keeps on rising. You might disagree with it as a tactic, but it's not the same as a few people getting arrested for a one-off action.


it's sounding more like a strategy than a tactic. and tbh it's stupid either way round, are the police the enemy in this case, are they the people to confront? or are they an obstacle to get around?

i suppose if they're getting released without charge and all sue the cops there may be some small merit to the let's get lots of people nicked. but any compo will be years down the line.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 19, 2018)

I think the police are fairly irrelevant to what they are trying to do - except in so far as they can be used by letting them do their job. I'm not saying I think XR's current tactics are right, but I understand what they're trying to do. If you get arrests and police violence against peaceful protesters on a large enough scale it becomes qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from arrests on a smaller scale. Let's say their ambition is to get 10,000 people arrested. This will start to clog up courts, be a burden on the state. Media will start to do running tallies of the numbers of arrests. Let's say each person knows roughly a 100 people (friends, relatives, work colleagues etc). If 10,000 people get arrested then roughly a 1000,000 people will personally know someone who has been arrested (I know there will be overlaps in social groups, just doing rough numbers). If police start beating peaceful protests this can become another way of forcing people to pick a side (think miner's strike), particularly if they know someone involved. This all means that huge numbers of people will be talking about the protests, to the point that it is a social phenomenon on which people will be expected to have a stance, and on which governments and political parties will be expected to have a stance.

I'm not saying I think all this will work, just that it is not related to the tactic of getting arrested on individual protests, and I don't think they expect anything to come of any given arrest of encounter with the police. It's all about trying to make it happen on such a scale that it forces society-wide debate on e.g. whether climate change is urgent enough to justify such methods.


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## cantsin (Nov 19, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I'm delighted to see Non Violent education, what makes you think 'Violent' action would catalyze a larger struggle? What do you think it would achieve other than spending 4 hours being Kettled?



I know it's all been gone over 1000 times ++, and personally am washed up / wrung out / will be contributing bugger all in practical terms, but having only ever been involved in one truly successful mass political campaign in my lifetime, it just feels soooooooooooooo late in the day to be thinking seriously about any kind of nvda approach to climate change ( an infinitely more pressing / global issue than the one I'm referring to )  - if a slow burning / nvda ship ever was viable for CC, it sailed a long time ago .


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## ska invita (Nov 21, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> I think the police are fairly irrelevant to what they are trying to do - except in so far as they can be used by letting them do their job. I'm not saying I think XR's current tactics are right, but I understand what they're trying to do. If you get arrests and police violence against peaceful protesters on a large enough scale it becomes qualitatively as well as quantitatively different from arrests on a smaller scale.
> 
> Let's say their ambition is to get 10,000 people arrested. This will start to clog up courts, be a burden on the state. Media will start to do running tallies of the numbers of arrests. Let's say each person knows roughly a 100 people (friends, relatives, work colleagues etc). If 10,000 people get arrested then roughly a 1000,000 people will personally know someone who has been arrested (I know there will be overlaps in social groups, just doing rough numbers).
> 
> ...


Great post here about how the police will play this



C&Ps for the facebook averse:

Hi everyone, my name is Kevin and I am the coordinator of the Network for Police Monitoring (Netpol), a coalition of organisations, researchers and lawyers challenging violent or excessive policing in the UK. Green and Black Cross is one of our core members.

I wanted to share a few thoughts on the likely police response to Extinction Rebellion based on almost 30 years monitoring the police and most specifically, working with the anti-fracking movement on this issue since 2014.

In Netpol’s experience, public order policing is driven entirely by intensive intelligence-gathering. Central to this is the creation and use of personal profiles to “provide a detailed picture of the (potential) offender”.

As a result, what we have seen from the anti-fracking movement and other campaigns is concerted police efforts to build personal and organisational profiles on the size, structures, leadership and alliances of campaign groups. At its most basic level, this means filming attendance at meetings and protests and routinely monitoring social media.

The "control strategy" used by the police also places a particular emphasis on "disruption" and "network demolition". For the last ten years, individual campaigners have repeatedly expressed to us their concerns about personal targeting or ‘picking out’ for having their photograph taken, facing identification checks by police during a stop and search and police officers publicly naming them (what one described as ‘aggressively saying hello’). We have had reports too of detention and searches under Schedule 7 anti-terrorism powers at ports or airports.

This “overt” activity constitutes far more of the surveillance conducted by the police – and should have a far greater priority for activists – than the inevitable concerns about undercover police spies (who in any event are incredibly difficult to identify).
Many might imagine that because this approach is borrowed from the policing of organised crime, its focus is on protest that is “violent”. That has not what we have seen.

Instead, the police have tended to target new social movements where they have little existing intelligence; groups who challenge powerful corporate interests; and those using direct action tactics.

This is why this matters to Extinction Rebellion.

Campaigners in other social movements have told us how obvious or conspicuous surveillance alienates people from others, including communities they are trying to connect or engage with, by creating the impression they are criminal or ‘trouble’. They have also said they believe surveillance is intentionally divisive, calling attention to those who are allegedly ‘extremists’ or whom the police want to isolate or alienate from other protesters.

If anyone experiences any of the following, please contact me in confidence at kevin@netpol.org:

the singling-out 'organisers' for particular attention
visits to individual campaigners at home
concerns raised or referrals made in schools or colleges for “vulnerability to extremism”
concerns raised about parents taking their children on protests
Finally, a heartfelt plea:
The apparently friendly police officers in blue bibs are intelligence gatherers. This isn’t speculation, it has been repeatedly confirmed, including in evidence to Parliament.

You may think chatting to them doesn’t reveal anything but they are not primarily interested in you – and they certainly aren’t interested in your views on climate change.

What they are interested in is the scraps of information that, when combined and analysed, help to build their profiles on the movement you have joined.
Please, please, please… for no other reason than respecting the safety of your comrades, please do not engage with them.
Kev x


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## Brainaddict (Nov 22, 2018)

I'm sure the police will also re-introduce kettling, which as been very successful at sucking the energy out of street protest. A fair number of the protesters I saw are too young to even have been involved in the student protests so probably don't know yet what it means to be kettled. What will be interesting then is whether they can adjust their tactics to get around the police. 

Was talking to a guy on the XR comms team yesterday. He was from outside London and thought that the police wouldn't put too many numbers on the streets for fear of putting off shoppers and tourists. I had to gently disabuse him of this notion. When the police and/or their political masters have had enough, they will get the numbers out.


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## Miss-Shelf (Nov 22, 2018)

I don't know if this has been posted.	5 Reasons I’m Not Joining the ‘Extinction Rebellion’ | Novara Media

I think it raises valid critiques that anyone involved in extinction rebellion needs to consider.   However,  I think it would be more productive to say that it's how extinction rebellion needs to evolve rather than see them as reasons not to take action

In terms of climate activism and NVDA previous eco activism eg climate camp actions have involved some police violence and also potentially harsh treatment in court as well as invasive police infiltration - extinction rebellion originators will be aware of this


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## Sprocket. (Nov 23, 2018)

Maximum impact would be to block the bridges and roads the next time there is a tube and rail strike.
Then the violence will ramp up as people cannot get to work!
Has this been posted above? I have just scan read the thread.


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## ska invita (Nov 23, 2018)

Blocking bridges is pretty pointless... It annoys cabbies and delivery drivers and that's about it.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2018)

Sprocket. said:


> Maximum impact would be to block the bridges and roads the next time there is a tube and rail strike.
> Then the violence will ramp up as people cannot get to work!
> Has this been posted above? I have just scan read the thread.


maximum impact would be to disrupt the operation of parliament, perhaps by besieging the palace of westminster
to disrupt the smooth running of businesses in london, perhaps by causing the evacuation of shops (fire alarms in mind rather than bomb threats, invasions of shops and businesses)
to disrupt the stock exchange and the city of london
bridges? small beer


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## Sprocket. (Nov 23, 2018)

I believe it’s that by getting arrested and blocking the courts with futile cases that the group hope will change the government’s focus on this.
Similar to how the hundreds of miners arrested at Orgreave and filled Rotherham police stations changed Thatcher’s focus.


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## Sprocket. (Nov 23, 2018)

I mentioned bridges and roads as that seems their current tactic.
It used to be disruptive behaviour outside banks but everyone is online these days. Using electricity damn them!


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## ska invita (Nov 23, 2018)

Going for the environment offices made sense


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## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

The bloke in the film featured in the Guardian (Roger) came across as a fucking idiot.


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## Edie (Nov 23, 2018)

Rather than bridges, a much easier way to achieve mass arrest extremely quickly would be to significantly disrupt the city as has been said. Bet they wouldn’t last an hour.

I’m pretty impressed. They’re clearly ready to put their money where their mouth is with getting arrested. And worldwide policy change is the only thing that will work, not using plastic straws just seems so utterly futile. Don’t think I’d dare do what they’re doing wrt getting arrested (might lose my job and who would look after the kids with me being a single mum) but well, bloody hell, good for them basically!

ETA: Just watched a 13 min video on Facebook about them


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## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

I wish the EA all the best and look forward (unfortunately) to them getting the right approach after the police batter them. 

NVDA is a cul de sac.


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## Edie (Nov 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I wish the EA all the best and look forward (unfortunately) to them getting the right approach after the police batter them.
> 
> NVDA is a cul de sac.


Well yeah. You can’t seriously expect people to sit there whilst having their heads caved in. Although I guess that’s self defence rather than violent direct action.


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## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

Edie said:


> Well yeah. You can’t seriously expect people to sit there whilst having their heads caved in. Although I guess that’s self defence rather than violent direct action.


Getting whacked over the head tends to cause a change in  approach.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 23, 2018)

Edie said:


> Rather than bridges, a much easier way to achieve mass arrest extremely quickly would be to significantly disrupt the city as has been said. Bet they wouldn’t last an hour.


very much what the commissioner of the city of london police was saying up until the morning of 18 june 1999


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## ska invita (Nov 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I wish the EA all the best and look forward (unfortunately) to them getting the right approach after the police batter them.
> 
> NVDA is a cul de sac.


Nonviolent Direct Action can be great but needs to be used strategically and be part of a wider programme.


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## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

Do we get involved? They won't like some of our tactics!


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## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Nonviokent Direct Action can be great but needs to be used strategy and be part of a wider programme.


Most of the time you are better off fighting.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Do we get involved? They won't like some of our tactics!



Wouldn't recommend it. They seem like the sort who would sell you out in a heartbeat if you transgressed their idea of non-violent, non-confrontational, yes sir no sir three bags full sir activism. I mean the world may be ending but that's no excuse to go around behaving like ruffians now is it?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 23, 2018)

Edie said:


> Well yeah. You can’t seriously expect people to sit there whilst having their heads caved in. Although I guess that’s self defence rather than violent direct action.



You can easily get yourself done for assaulting police just for defending yourself and others. You can even get done for assaulting coppers when you weren't even there at the time. 

Mate of mine is in a Berlin prison at the moment awaiting trial for firebombing police, even though he was passed out drunk at the time. Somehow three coppers saw him do it, but they didn't realise they'd seen him do it until many months after the fact, long after he'd been released without charge and been allowed to return to the UK.


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## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

ska invita said:


> Nonviolent Direct Action can be great but needs to be used strategically and be part of a wider programme.


We have to value hugely anyone involved in an action. Watching but not acting as a matter of policy when a comrade is being attacked is just wrong.


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## TopCat (Nov 23, 2018)

Anyone fancy a looksee wander in the morn?


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## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Well I'm going to have a look.


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## Edie (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Well I'm going to have a look.


What’s going on today? Report back!


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## Sprocket. (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Well I'm going to have a look.



There’s nothing like a primary source!


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## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Well I predict the police will kettle and release after gaining details.


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## Sprocket. (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Well I predict the police will kettle and release after gaining details.



Don’t tell him Pike!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 24, 2018)

Kettling people who are blocking roads is not one of those great ideas, and beating people up surrounded by tourists and cameras in the centre of town isn’t a great idea either.

The thing is that there isn’t a lot they can do right now apart from remove people. What I think will happen is increased attempts at intimidation via legal threats, personal targeting and punitive sentences (at some point) and also attempts to restrict movement and assembly, though the latter is difficult and can never be very effective. (ETA: see the post from the netpol guy on the last page.)


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Well it's ten am and they are gathering despite the pissy weather. Maybe three hundred here. Police are few in number but are snapping away.
Check the cop channelling mutant ninja turtles.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

First roadblock junction Victoria Street.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Now they have a debate and let the traffic out. Not clear what criteria is in use here.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Second and third roadblocks. Junctions Whitehall and Millbank.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

More plod. Being ever so friendly. Call me Brian rec.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Most people are listening to speeches and songs in  Parliament Square.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Now they are sharing poems.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Still not many here. It looks like the Green Gathering on a day trip to London.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Someone is playing original music on a flute via the PA.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Still blocking the roads but the traffic is diverted out of the area.


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 24, 2018)

Sprocket. said:


> Maximum impact would be to block the bridges and roads the next time there is a tube and rail strike.
> Then the violence will ramp up as people cannot get to work!
> Has this been posted above? I have just scan read the thread.



If you want to block things, block car parks. Every one, same night as the cctv gets done.


----------



## GreatGutsby (Nov 24, 2018)

Is it just me or does this Extinction Rebellion thing come across as rather culty?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

I'm bored.


----------



## GreatGutsby (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I'm bored.


Hi bored, I'm The Great Gutsby.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 24, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Kettling people who are blocking roads is not one of those great ideas, and beating people up surrounded by tourists and cameras in the centre of town isn’t a great idea either.


Mate. This is the big student protest at Parliament Square. There was both kettling and caving people's heads in. The protesters will get the gentle treatment - until they don't.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Repaired to pub.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Hoping they will march down Whitehall past said pub.


----------



## chilango (Nov 24, 2018)

What sort of age were the protesters TopCat ? From your photos a fair few seem old enough to have been around before....


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Teens to pensioners. Mostly middle aged.


----------



## chilango (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Teens to pensioners. Mostly middle aged.



So, would it be reasonable to assume there ought to be a proportion that are "veterans" and thus should be able to draw upon the lessons of the past as this develops?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Lots of FIT cops from the Climate Camp era in attendance.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

chilango said:


> So, would it be reasonable to assume there ought to be a proportion that are "veterans" and thus should be able to draw upon the lessons of the past as this develops?


Some old RTS faces.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

But loads of yoghurt weaving folk song singing wooks.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

My comrades.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

On the move now.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Lots of cold bottoms.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Fash on March. Confronted them but yoghurt weavers intervened. Awaiting reinforcements.


----------



## GreatGutsby (Nov 24, 2018)

Why these people think that the government are going to listen to them I'll never know, it's as if the anti-war protests and Occupy never happened, bizarre.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

View attachment 153512 View attachment 153512


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 24, 2018)

UK  - polite witty slogans, a nice cup of tea and humour- nothing is done
France- CRS, tear gas and massed disroder- something will be done


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> UK  - polite witty slogans, a nice cup of tea and humour- nothing is done
> France- CRS, tear gas and massed disroder- something will be done


Let's see what er do now they've sent a grovelling letter to the queen


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

The demo ended up at buck palace. They appealed to the queen to assist with their cause. We left.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 24, 2018)

Were they actually doing anything arrestable? I thought that was the whole point, rather than making appeals to vintage oppressors.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Were they actually doing anything arrestable? I thought that was the whole point, rather than making appeals to vintage oppressors.


If abject begging is an offence they committed it, they're miserable pleaders


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

My overall thoughts. 

Allowing fascists to be on the march and stopping opposition to the same by swarming me and trying to appeal to my better nature was shit and politically telling. 

Turning left onto the Mall and not straight up the Charing Cross Road was ineffective. 

Appealing to the Queen to save the planet seemed so naive I am speculating if it was a cunning plan to keep Anarchists off future demos and protect NVDA tactics from June 1999 style efforts. 

5/10
Could do better.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Well I predict the police will kettle and release after gaining details.


I was well wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> My overall thoughts.
> 
> Allowing fascists to be on the march and stopping opposition to the same by swarming me and trying to appeal to my better nature was shit and politically telling.
> 
> ...


From what I saw a 3 is nearer the mark.

Room for improvement


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> The bloke in the film featured in the Guardian (Roger) came across as a fucking idiot.


This bloke was much in evidence today. Wearing exactly same clothes.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

It was at least half women (or so it seemed) which was a big plus.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

I was all reminiscing about RTS days so was bound to be a bit meh.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 24, 2018)

So was this just a march then? Finishing at Buckingham Palace?


----------



## Edie (Nov 24, 2018)

Excellent work TopCat that was like a live news feed 

It does all seem tokenistic. But as I do fuck all who am I to criticise.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Fash on March. Confronted them but yoghurt weavers intervened. Awaiting reinforcements.



Of what ilk?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Alt right and fellow traveller. A legal observer mentioned their presence and I went over. Insults and scuffle. Then at least 6 people, thinking about it, all women, got in the way facing me and kept talking in a patronising calm down manner. 

I may have a pic. Let me have a look.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Little fella in Boston top and brown trousers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Little fella in Boston top and brown trousers.


Looks a wrong un anyway


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> View attachment 153528


Is that trump flag boy?

ETA: yeah it is. I’m pretty sure anyway.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Is that trump flag boy?
> 
> ETA: yeah it is. I’m pretty sure anyway.


Someone there referred to him as that. Was he on the Anonymous demo with a Trump flag?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Someone there referred to him as that. Was he on the Anonymous demo with a Trump flag?


Probably. He turns up at a lot of places. On marches he has a big Trump flag, but he usually has a red hat on regardless.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 24, 2018)

Ta.


----------



## M Testa (Nov 24, 2018)

.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> View attachment 153528



Fair enough.  I expect other people just thought it was a random ding dong?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 25, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> How soon the Bolsheviks are forgotten



I like this and hate this at the same time


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 25, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I dont think Russia in 1917 bears any resemblance to the UK today. If you think a Bolshevik party could sieze power today you must be very prone to fantasy



What kind of organisation could seize power?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 25, 2018)

So... I don't think ER are really doing direct action at all. They're just getting themselves arrested in the hope of generating sympathy among the ruling class. Instead of creating pressure around demands they seem to be sacrificing themselves in the hope that the powers above will listen. 

It's completely unsustainable and well as daft.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> What kind of organisation could seize power?



A legitimate political party which persuaded enough people to vote for it so that it could form a government. 

Other than that,  no  bunch of fantasists waving flags or popping off bombs, thank fuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> A legitimate political party which persuaded enough people to vote for it so that it could form a government.
> 
> Other than that,  no  bunch of fantasists waving flags or popping off bombs, thank fuck.


Not sure you've grasped the core of the concept 'seize power'


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure you've grasped the core of the concept 'seize power'



Yeah, but there's not going to be any non-democratic (lol, spellcheck wanted 'non-denominational) transfer of power in UK.

And if there is, or an attempt at one, I'll be on the other side of the barricades. 

Just because we despise the contemptible toxic bastards who legitimately govern us, we don't get any moral right to force an improvement by violence.

Of course it all seems different when you're 17 or so.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Yeah, but there's not going to be any non-democratic (lol, spellcheck wanted 'non-denominational) transfer of power in UK.
> 
> And if there is, or an attempt at one, I'll be on the other side of the barricades.
> 
> ...



You don't get power by being elected to govt. And I'm older than 17 although still young for an Urb. Pickers is ancient I believe.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 25, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> You don't get power by being elected to govt. And I'm older than 17 although still young for an Urb. Pickers is ancient I believe.



Also, I didn't say anything about violence.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> You don't get power by being elected to govt. And I'm older than 17 although still young for an Urb. Pickers is ancient I believe.



Hmm, well, you certainly get _authority _by being elected to Government.

Power is something taken; authority is something given.


Power is illegitimate. The two terms are often used interchangeably like "risk" and "hazard", and much of the time it doesn't matter.


Anyone "seizing power", strictly speaking,  is being really rather naughty.

How would anyone "seize power " without a form of violence?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Power is illegitimate.



It is? Oh NO.

What are we going to do about the fact that the ruling class has all the power then? Given that it's illegitimate.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> It is? Oh NO.
> 
> What are we going to do about the fact that the ruling class has all the power then? Given that it's illegitimate.



String them up and declare a People's Republic. 



Oh, hang on a minute.....


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> So... I don't think ER are really doing direct action at all. They're just getting themselves arrested in the hope of generating sympathy among the ruling class. Instead of creating pressure around demands they seem to be sacrificing themselves in the hope that the powers above will listen.
> 
> It's completely unsustainable and well as daft.



Who is going to support all the arrestees is what I'm concerned about. Probably they'll all have their charges dropped (besides that one idiot who decided to graffiti a government building with an entire police evidence gathering team watching) but if they don't they'll need court support etc. I doubt that an organisation that was pulled out of some hippie's arse three weeks ago has the resources to do that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Yeah, but there's not going to be any non-democratic (lol, spellcheck wanted 'non-denominational) transfer of power in UK.
> 
> And if there is, or an attempt at one, I'll be on the other side of the barricades.
> 
> ...


If there is an attempt to seize power then, you say you'll be on its side being as a seizure of power from below unthinkable if unarmed while one 'from above', from disgruntled elements of the ruling class and armed forces much more likely, albeit still currently improbable


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> String them up and declare a People's Republic.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, hang on a minute.....


Hang on a minute 

But you're right, there is a swell of opinion in favour of the guillotine


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> How would anyone "seize power " without a form of violence?


A question that should have occurred to you some time back


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Who is going to support all the arrestees is what I'm concerned about. Probably they'll all have their charges dropped (besides that one idiot who decided to graffiti a government building with an entire police evidence gathering team watching) but if they don't they'll need court support etc. I doubt that an organisation that was pulled out of some hippie's arse three weeks ago has the resources to do that.


By government building do you mean the women of WW2 memorial?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> By government building do you mean the women of WW2 memorial?



No the department of energy.

Why, was it these clowns who defaced the memorial too?


----------



## Edie (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Yeah, but there's not going to be any non-democratic (lol, spellcheck wanted 'non-denominational) transfer of power in UK.
> 
> And if there is, or an attempt at one, I'll be on the other side of the barricades.
> 
> ...


That’s an interesting pov. And true.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 25, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Who is going to support all the arrestees is what I'm concerned about. Probably they'll all have their charges dropped (besides that one idiot who decided to graffiti a government building with an entire police evidence gathering team watching) but if they don't they'll need court support etc. I doubt that an organisation that was pulled out of some hippie's arse three weeks ago has the resources to do that.


Well speaking to a good mate (who was nicked on a bridge last week) they just collected their details and dropped them off in deepest North London.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> No the department of energy.
> 
> Why, was it these clowns who defaced the memorial too?


Someone sprayed 'mother' on it and I saw the defrocked priest looking sheepish nearby


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Power is something taken; authority is something given.
> 
> 
> Power is illegitimate. The two terms are often used interchangeably like "risk" and "hazard", and much of the time it doesn't matter.




the monarchy you swore an oath to defend- who gave them their authority? Was there a big meeting with a show of hands.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Nov 25, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Who is going to support all the arrestees is what I'm concerned about. Probably they'll all have their charges dropped (besides that one idiot who decided to graffiti a government building with an entire police evidence gathering team watching) but if they don't they'll need court support etc. I doubt that an organisation that was pulled out of some hippie's arse three weeks ago has the resources to do that.


This may or may not be in process 
I spent last night waiting in Bromley police station (with others) to meet 4 people who'd been arrested (not for the graff on the way memorial) .   The arrestees were all well resourced (£ and friends) and  it hasn't been traumatic arrests. Their details are passed on to *someone* .   Remains to be seen if the *someones* follow up


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Just because we despise the contemptible toxic bastards who legitimately govern us, we don't get any moral right to force an improvement by violence.



They use violence against us but we can't use violence to stop them from doing so? Horseshit.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> They use violence against us but we can't use violence to stop them from doing so? Horseshit.




Depends who is doing the violence. 

I've no problem with battering a copper who's overdoing it.  

Who, exactly,  are you categorising as ripe for a kicking/stabbing/bombing/shooting? How do you decide who receives the violence? By whose right?


----------



## Celyn (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> A legitimate political party which persuaded enough people to vote for it so that it could form a government.
> 
> Other than that,  no  bunch of fantasists waving flags or popping off bombs, thank fuck.


 How lucky we are in Britain ñever to have done such a thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Depends who is doing the violence.
> 
> I've no problem with battering a copper who's overdoing it.
> 
> Who, exactly,  are you categorising as ripe for a kicking/stabbing/bombing/shooting? How do you decide who receives the violence? By whose right?



You do know coppers are government employees I assume?


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> the monarchy you swore an oath to defend- who gave them their authority? Was there a big meeting with a show of hands.




Errrm.... you don't actually believe that the royalty have anything resembling either authority or power, do you?

Anyhow,  in taking that path I was quite clearly giving Her Maj, and 'er heirs and successors and the officers set over me, my authority to tell me what to do.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> You do know coppers are government employees I assume?



Quasi; they're actually local employees rather than central Government workers, deliberately,  Bobby Peel set it up so for good reasons.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> A question that should have occurred to you some time back



I was responding to the poster who seemed to be advocating for the seizing of power but wasn't advocating violence.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

Edie said:


> That’s an interesting pov. And true.



Thank you.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Quasi; they're actually local employees rather than central Government workers.



Well in that case all the horrible shit they do is just fine.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Errrm.... you don't actually believe that the royalty have anything resembling either authority or power, do you?
> 
> Anyhow,  in taking that path I was quite clearly giving Her Maj, and 'er heirs and successors and the officers set over me, my authority to tell me what to do.


Then you'll be able to tell me what the legitimate procedure for forming a government without the crowns nod is? from where do the courts derive their legitimacy? I've never been prosecuted by The People here. Yes I'm aware that we live in a constitutional monarchy and parliament does the running of things. However the idea that a head of state, a hereditary monarch of Britain, has no sort of soft power at all is off. Is that the legitimacy? Because if the answer is no not really then its your first comment 'I'd be on the other side of the barricades'.
So the legitimacy of a state is bought with its ability to bring the pain at the end of the day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Errrm.... you don't actually believe that the royalty have anything resembling either authority or power, do you?
> 
> Anyhow,  in taking that path I was quite clearly giving Her Maj, and 'er heirs and successors and the officers set over me, my authority to tell me what to do.


If they don't have authority or power what is the point of them? What's the point of giving them millions of pounds a year?


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well in that case all the horrible shit they do is just fine.




Is it? How on Earth do you make that out?


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> If they don't have authority or power what is the point of them? What's the point of giving them millions of pounds a year?




Two reasons: 

1. Tourism. 

2. So we never have a head of State like President Thatcher, President Blair or President Major.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> Then you'll be able to tell me what the legitimate procedure for forming a government without the crowns nod is? from where do the courts derive their legitimacy? I've never been prosecuted by The People here. Yes I'm aware that we live in a constitutional monarchy and parliament does the running of things. However the idea that a head of state, a hereditary monarch of Britain, has no sort of soft power at all is off. Is that the legitimacy? Because if the answer is no not really then its your first comment 'I'd be on the other side of the barricades'.
> So the legitimacy of a state is bought with its ability to bring the pain at the end of the day.




See above. 


The monarchy is a political irrelevance, we all know it.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Errrm.... you don't actually believe that the royalty have anything resembling either authority or power, do you?
> 
> Anyhow,  in taking that path I was quite clearly giving Her Maj, and 'er heirs and successors and the officers set over me, my authority to tell me what to do.



Kill people. But only the people that Her Maj and dear old dead Sophia's heirs and successors tell you to.

Terrible tough job. Utterly beyond belief horrible. But you can  not sign away your own morality.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Yeah, but there's not going to be any non-democratic (lol, spellcheck wanted 'non-denominational) transfer of power in UK.
> 
> And if there is, or an attempt at one, I'll be on the other side of the barricades.
> 
> ...


I find your views interesting, but I am a bit confused by some bits. 
Actually the whole thing. I wish not on phone cos I might be able to make more sense.  

But in what way do the toxic bastards legitimally  govern us? By what moral  right? Glad they never got any of that power by violence though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Two reasons:
> 
> 1. Tourism.
> 
> 2. So we never have a head of State like President Thatcher, President Blair or President Major.


Yeh a) bollocks; b) see a)


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> See above.
> 
> ough
> The monarchy is a political irrelevance, we all know it.



Its only an irrelevance if we weren't discussing wider questions about power, legitimacy an the state. 'Authority is given'


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 25, 2018)

if they live and breath and still own much of the land in the country, then they are hardly an irrelevance. fucking hell


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 25, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> if they live and breath and still own much of the land in the country, then they are hardly an irrelevance. fucking hell


The thinking is better saying they're an irrelevance and have them keep their heads than have people examine them and do unto the foul ersatz windsors what was done to the romanovs and bourbons


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Kill people. But only the people that Her Maj and dear old dead Sophia's heirs and successors tell you to.
> 
> Terrible tough job. Utterly beyond belief horrible. But you can  not sign away your own morality.




Could not agree more. Nobody expects you to; quite the opposite. 

Even old farts like me who joined in the 80s were given excellent training on law of armed conflict, the crux of which is "I was just following orders" isn't a good answer.

And in all honesty no, it's not utterly beyond belief horrible.  Actually bits of it were, but there was achievement and also illustration of some extraordinarily fine human qualities.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

Celyn said:


> I find your views interesting, but I am a bit confused by some bits.
> Actually the whole thing. I wish not on phone cos I might be able to make more sense.
> 
> But in what way do the toxic bastards legitimally  govern us? By what moral  right? Glad they never got any of that power by violence though.




By an imperfect democracy; that's the only legitimate source of authority. 

It's crap, but they don't get it by violence. 

I'm a reluctant supporter of our form of government,  and I'd like a great many changes  to it.

I'm actively hostile to any form of violent overthrow of the State as it currently is.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 25, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> Its only an irrelevance if we weren't discussing wider questions about power, legitimacy an the state. 'Authority is given'




They're irrelevant to a conversation about how authority or power may change hands.


I trust that you are aware of English history around where authority sat? Cromwell?


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> They're irrelevant to a conversation about how authority or power may change hands.


but we are talking about as an institution, the crown. And I wasn't addressing how power may change hands, I was questioning your post on legitimacy and authority.


cheesepig said:


> an imperfect democracy; that's the only legitimate source of authority.


this makes it a little clearer, but where do you think the flaw is, could it be the massive undemocratic counterweight of old money and class which dominates all forms of civil service and public life, politics, law. The last PM was related to the queen, but y'know, irrelevance.


> I trust that you are aware of English history around where authority sat? Cromwell?



They dug him him up and gave him a traitors death in the end


----------



## Celyn (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Could not agree more. Nobody expects you to; quite the opposite.
> 
> Even old farts like me who joined in the 80s were given excellent training on law of armed conflict, the crux of which is "I was just following orders" isn't a good answer.
> 
> And in all honesty no, it's not utterly beyond belief horrible.  Actually bits of it were, but there was achievement and also illustration of some extraordinarily fine human qualities.


Thanks for your kind reply there. Genuinely. And yes you might see the worst of people but also the best


----------



## yield (Nov 25, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> The monarchy is a political irrelevance, we all know it.


How much land does the Royal Family actually own?


> The bulk of the property owned by the Queen is held on her behalf by the Crown Estate, which operates as a real estate business and returns all of its profits to the Treasury, although the Queen then does receive a grant of 15 per cent of the total profits of the Estate from two years previous.
> 
> The group manages a property portfolio worth £12.4bn, and the latest available figures show that it delivered £329m to the Treasury for the 2015/2016 financial year.


Inside the British Monarchy's £13 billion property empire

A third of Britain STILL belongs to the aristocracy | Daily Mail Online


> More than a third of Britain’s land is still in the hands of a tiny group of aristocrats, according to the most extensive ownership survey in nearly 140 years.
> 
> In a shock to those who believed the landed gentry were a dying breed, blue-blooded owners still control vast swathes of the country within their inherited estates.
> 
> A group of 36,000 individuals – only 0.6 per cent of the population – own 50 per cent of rural land.


Scotland has the most inequitable land ownership in the west. Why?


> Land means power, so Scotland's few hundred aristocrats can scarcely be expected to give up on four centuries of owning more than half of the country.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Nov 25, 2018)

How long until Extinction Rebellion are extinct?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 26, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> The thinking is better saying they're an irrelevance and have them keep their heads than have people examine them and do unto the foul ersatz windsors what was done to the romanovs and bourbons



yeah but tourism/

the royals are in an extinction procreation death spiral atm- soon we will all be royals if their offspring output and mingling with the masses continues.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 26, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> but we are talking about as an institution, the crown.



Sorry,  I joined the thread part through. I was hooking in to the riffs on seizing power 'n shit.



> And I wasn't addressing how power may change hands, I was questioning your post on legitimacy and authority.



Ah but it was all mingled up. I'm very interested in legitimacy and authority, which are intricately bound up in the processes by which power and authority may change hands. 


> this makes it a little clearer, but where do you think the flaw is, could it be the massive undemocratic counterweight of old money and class which dominates all forms of civil service and public life, politics, law. The last PM was related to the queen, but y'know, irrelevance.




I think we'd agree that your list here at least makes a start on the flaws in our system.... you left out the media, unbalanced school curricula and grotesque differences in education generally by class, place and maybe race, and I suspect you, I and most posters here could go on and on.



> They dug him him up and gave him a traitors death in the end




Not a bad idea... how long has Margaret been feeding worms?


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 26, 2018)

I've got a soft spot for James Butler because he's a lovely chap and often has interesting things to say even having jumped in the commentariat pond. But "have you considered becoming a Labour astroturf operation" is probably the worst ER hot take I've yet seen. The climate crisis demands more than blocking roads, Extinction Rebellion | James Butler

Don't get me wrong, ER has a lot to criticise. But its independence is not one of those things.


----------



## Mordi (Nov 26, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> I've got a soft spot for James Butler because he's a lovely chap and often has interesting things to say even having jumped in the commentariat pond. But "have you considered becoming a Labour astroturf operation" is probably the worst ER hot take I've yet seen. The climate crisis demands more than blocking roads, Extinction Rebellion | James Butler
> 
> Don't get me wrong, ER has a lot to criticise. But its independence is not one of those things.



I agree, the Novara piece Miss-Shelf linked to earlier in the thread does a similar thing. Perfectly valid criticisms which somehow include the line "building popular power through trade unions, the Labour party and deep community organising.". 

I think one of the advantages ER has is the sense of desperation that has no where else to go. Suggesting that a productive outlet for this is to go to local constituency meetings of a party that isn't even focused on the issue of climate change is distinctly short sighted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Depends who is doing the violence.
> 
> I've no problem with battering a copper who's overdoing it.
> 
> Who, exactly,  are you categorising as ripe for a kicking/stabbing/bombing/shooting? How do you decide who receives the violence? By whose right?


so you're quite happy to decide who should get a twatting but less happy for other people to do the same. right.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 26, 2018)

My batphone has just blipped me a message that London Bridge is closed

lol
lol
lol
Lol
Lol


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 26, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> My batphone has just blipped me a message that London Bridge is closed
> 
> lol
> lol
> ...


We all long to hear that London Bridge is down


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 26, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> My batphone has just blipped me a message that London Bridge is closed
> 
> lol
> lol
> ...



I'd be surprised if Extinction Rebellion had anything to do with it, unless they have been engaged in some seriously deep infiltration of the London Taxi Drivers Association.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Nov 26, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> so you're quite happy to decide who should get a twatting but less happy for other people to do the same. right.




Nope.

I'm quite happy to intervene in a violent incident in which someone is perpetrating a misuse of authority (or power).


I don't like collective blame of groups (the rich, Eton old boys, union members, blacks, middle class white guys) and advocacy of violence against them.


I'm sure that now I have explained,  you will agree with me.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 26, 2018)

eoin_k said:


> I'd be surprised if Extinction Rebellion had anything to do with it, unless they have been engaged in some seriously deep infiltration of the London Taxi Drivers Association.




yer right- it was taxis.


----------



## editor (Nov 27, 2018)

From FB: 



> Whatever your feelings on Extinction Rebellion, you'd be wise NOT to fill out one of these data collecting forms, either on paper or online. A quick read and a little think and you will see exactly why. Please spread the word


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 28, 2018)

Jesus these people are a bloody menace. I can't imagine their leadership is State, no undercover would be that blatant.


----------



## LDC (Nov 28, 2018)

Long and quite painful interview with them on Novara. I am trying to see the good in what's going on with them, but they don't half make it hard to see that through all the horrendous and ignorant politics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> Jesus these people are a bloody menace. I can't imagine their leadership is State, no undercover would be that blatant.


Their entire mo is based round criminalisation of their movement


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Nov 28, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Long and quite painful interview with them on Novara. I am trying to see the good in what's going on with them, but they don't half make it hard to see that through all the horrendous and ignorant politics.


I agree.  I am really invested in the urgent necessity to address climate change and I've drifted in and out of climate change protest since the early '90's(Like many on here)  but I'm not finding the substance with XR (yet?)


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 28, 2018)

Aside from any general criticism of accountable nonviolent direct action, the way Roger Hallam presents what Extinction Rebellion is up to in the Guardian video (posted up thread) seems really misguided. People pledging their willingness to face the consequences of committing acts of civil disobedience is one thing, but turning around to the coppers and publicly suggesting that they get buses and make mass arrests, so you can win, just seems delusional. It's like calling the local sheriff's office from an Alabama lunch counter to remind them to bring the Alsatians.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 28, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Their entire mo is based round criminalisation of their movement



I know, but this is a step towards criminalising even those people involved who can't afford prison time. Anyhow various folks have made sure it's flagged with ER and suggested they talk to a lawyer.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 28, 2018)

I find the fact that they've rejected consensus decision making (nice idea but a massive pain in the arse irl) in favour of something called holocracy.  That does indicate a critical attitude to social movements of the past.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I find the fact that they've rejected consensus decision making (nice idea but a massive pain in the arse irl) in favour of something called holocracy.  That does indicate a critical attitude to social movements of the past.


Interesting idea


----------



## TopCat (Nov 29, 2018)

What's that then?


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 29, 2018)

_Holacracy_

I mean, it's basically a cell structure as used by terrorists worldwide, but someone with an MBA branded it.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 29, 2018)

So when the police infiltrate they are fucked.


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 29, 2018)

Also cuts the ready time of new members considerably, when there's no 'membership' as such or centralised approval system. Like, grab some mates, put on the T-shirts and off you go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2018)

the guardian predictably love them

HS2 work halted by overnight protest on nature reserve


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 29, 2018)

"Extinction Rebellion style", as though lock-ons were invented by Roger bleedin' Hallam. Seriously state of that paper sometimes you'd think it was being run by Leonard from Memento.


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 29, 2018)

The Age of Social Media being what it is, some twats will prioritise grandstanding over effectiveness or outcome. But this sort of civil disobedience has been slowly normalising for decades now, to a point where it's becoming something to actually aspire to. It fits perfectly with in a time when everything is documented live and commented on before it's even finished.

Though I have no doubt that sooner or later will come new legislation to counter these cellular techniques; ways of criminalising smaller gatherings on less evidence would be my guess. Possibly also attempts at criminalisation of closed message groups, it may be unenforceable but that's never stopped a government before.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> the guardian predictably love them
> View attachment 153879
> HS2 work halted by overnight protest on nature reserve




I think the idea is to build up numbers and then start taking NVDA in situations like this.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 29, 2018)

cheesepig said:


> Errrm.... you don't actually believe that the royalty have anything resembling either authority or power, do you?



Even if they weren’t Royal they’d still have power due to their enormous wealth and the amount of land they own.
Do you think they’re just pantomime figures or something?


----------



## ferrelhadley (Nov 29, 2018)

So the thread about climate change has managed about 26 posts this year. That is just over 2 a month. 
Climate Change
The thread largely criticising a group protesting about climate change has managed about 330 posts in a month. 

So very Urban 75, 

And now for something completely different. 

The UKs CO2 emissions have already dropped to levels last seen in the 1890s







Britain's CO2 Emissions Have Fallen to Levels Last Seen in 1890

The UK is on the road to the phase out of coal (the Radcliff, Drax and Kingsnorth Climate Camps were anti coal generation)






Lazards review of the levalized costs of electricity generating showed that renewables are becoming cost competitive with thermal fossil fuel plants (and exceeding them) [for the US but the global trend in similar]







These protests are pushing at a door that is already opening. People want clean air for their cities, cheap energy for their homes and a stable climate for their children. Low carbon energy sources, public transport over cars and improving housing insulation are all easy policy wins to achieve the former. Extinction Rebellion are off their arses and doing something. That makes them alright in my book. What they are doing is one tiny part of a huge global effort to attack an enormous problem from multiple angles.

4th warmest year ever measured and a mild el Nino brewing. 

If sitting your arse in a road helps in the tiniest bit to bring the inevitable switch to a low carbon economy quicker, fair fucks to them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2018)

ferrelhadley said:


> So the thread about climate change has managed about 26 posts this year. That is just over 2 a month.
> Climate Change
> The thread largely criticising a group protesting about climate change has managed about 330 posts in a month.
> 
> ...


What's it look like when you factor in flights from / to UK airports?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> What's it look like when you factor in flights from / to UK airports?



And I know a few climate change activists who enjoy their down time a few thousand miles away and don’t get there by boat.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 29, 2018)

I’m surprised that hydrogen isn’t being leapt on as an alternative vehicle fuel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2018)

ferrelhadley said:


> So the thread about climate change has managed about 26 posts this year. That is just over 2 a month.
> Climate Change
> The thread largely criticising a group protesting about climate change has managed about 330 posts in a month.
> 
> ...


Last seen in the 1890s except in the 1920s


----------



## eoin_k (Nov 29, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m surprised that hydrogen isn’t being leapt on as an alternative vehicle fuel.



As with electric vehicles, you still need an energy source to produce the hydrogen, so it's no panacea for climate change.


----------



## Wookey (Nov 30, 2018)

ferrelhadley said:


> If sitting your arse in a road helps in the tiniest bit to bring the inevitable switch to a low carbon economy quicker, fair fucks to them.



I'm with you, these people are natural allies of mine. I am on their side. I do fear though that their response is disproportionate to the problem they seek to solve, and until we see more people willing to go to prison for 30 years for climate activism, rather than just risking mere arrest, and taking the fight into targeted transport and power infrastructure sabotage, and properly-funded cyber attacks on the top C02 polluters, and other more sustained undermining of the oil economy, the state is going to successfully minimise them, brush them off as the ship sinks.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 30, 2018)

30 years prison eh?


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And I know a few climate change activists who enjoy their down time a few thousand miles away and don’t get there by boat.


It's like those anti-capitalist protesters who buy coffee at Starbucks eh? They haven't thought through even the rudiments of the problem, right?

Or maybe you haven't.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 30, 2018)

I'm glad there's more happening on this front and have been trying to be constructively critical for the most part. An interesting critique I saw from James Butler on fb the other week is that Roger Hallam and co are confused about what it is that makes social movements successful, particularly cause and effect in terms of arrests. Large scale arrests are a _side-effect_ of successful social movements that begin to threaten state/capital interests. It isn't the arrests themselves that are the point, though they can become a catalyst to establishing the lines of the conflict. I think the thing is that, sure people might sympathise with what they consider to be unjust arrests, but you have to win the wider argument about what is an appropriate way to respond to the problem you are trying to solve. You don't even have to persuade everyone, only a vocal minority that has a bit of leverage on government for whatever reason (not saying that's a good way to do it, but it can work). But XR has not really done that. They haven't helped create a new 'consensus' about how to respond to climate change, and their tactics don't seem designed to do that, they've just decided that getting arrested will be disruptive enough to force the conversations they want to have. It feels like they want to be the leading edge of something, but there's not enough weight behind it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 30, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> It's like those anti-capitalist protesters who buy coffee at Starbucks eh? They haven't thought through even the rudiments of the problem, right?
> 
> Or maybe you haven't.



It’s kind of harder to avoid capitalism than it is going to Barbados instead of, say, Brighton. 
Of course the issues are structural. Most eco activists I’ve encountered espouse individualist actions as at least part of the solution though.


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s kind of harder to avoid capitalism than it is going to Barbados instead of, say, Brighton.
> Of course the issues are structural. Most eco activists I’ve encountered espouse individualist actions as at least part of the solution though.



Most people consider individual action to part of the solution to any problem.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Most people consider individual action to part of the solution to any problem.



I said individualist, not individual.


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s kind of harder to avoid capitalism than it is going to Barbados instead of, say, Brighton.
> Of course the issues are structural. Most eco activists I’ve encountered espouse individualist actions as at least part of the solution though.


Some do, some don't. Some may have noticed that a consumer boycott of fossil fuels significant enough to have any effect would bring the price of fossil fuels _down_, meaning that others could buy up more of it. The chances it would result in less fossil fuel being pulled from the ground is more or less zero.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 30, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> Some do, some don't. Some may have noticed that a consumer boycott of fossil fuels significant enough to have any effect would bring the price of fossil fuels _down_, meaning that others could buy up more of it. The chances it would result in less fossil fuel being pulled from the ground is more or less zero.



The state promotes those kinds of actions (reduce your carbon footprint, make ethical consumerist choices etc) presumably as it’s less effective. Perhaps it isn’t as bad as I think as you don’t get to see the reverse: those who don’t use it to virtue signal.


----------



## Patteran (Nov 30, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> * Large scale arrests are a side-effect of successful social movements that begin to threaten state/capital interests. It isn't the arrests themselves that are the point, though they can become a catalyst to establishing the lines of the conflict.* .



It's odd, innit? Protest & change viewed as mathematics or algorithms & fed into a Google Rebellion Translate machine - a civil disobedience program written by AI that may be very clever but has never actually met any humans.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2018)

This stuff is clearly influenced by fill the jails campaigns of the iww in the early 10s and 20s of the last century (or prob more likely the re-use of the official US civil rights movement). They were local or regional issues that flying squads could act on. This stuff just doesn't work on that level. They were tractable issues that could be dealt with through the use of the tactic. This isn't. So the sort of history that's being built for this future seems a little wobbly to me.

edit: of course these campaigns relied on not being charged because of the volume of arrests.


----------



## sihhi (Dec 1, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> This stuff is clearly influenced by fill the jails campaigns of the iww in the early 10s and 20s of the last century (or prob more likely the re-use of the official US civil rights movement). They were local or regional issues that flying squads could act on. This stuff just doesn't work on that level. They were tractable issues that could be dealt with through the use of the tactic. This isn't. So the sort of history that's being built for this future seems a little wobbly to me.
> 
> edit: of course these campaigns relied on not being charged because of the volume of arrests.



Consciously trying to follow civil rights movement. See 

In fact more like CND. It warned of nuclear apocalypse or exterminism. They warn of species extinction. Similar willing waiting for arrests.


----------



## Cheesepig3 (Dec 1, 2018)

ferrelhadley said:


> So the thread about climate change has managed about 26 posts this year. That is just over 2 a month.
> Climate Change
> The thread largely criticising a group protesting about climate change has managed about 330 posts in a month.
> 
> ...




Yeah, some of us actually work in renewables rather than bleat about which bin the yoghurt pot goes in.


----------



## xenon (Dec 1, 2018)

They are not protesting the right way. They should learn from the successes of those who know better...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Dec 1, 2018)

xenon said:


> They are not protesting the right way. They should learn from the successes of those who know better...



Not sure anything thinks they know better - surely it’s obvious even to a layman that getting arrested as a tactic might be counterproductive with such a small pool of activists.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 1, 2018)

Aparrently XR's 'legal team' have been seeking advice on such thorny questions as whether there's any law that makes a conversation in a public street protected private communication.

They've also been telling people to represent themselves.

These people are making me wish I'd invested heavily in facepalms a few months back.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Dec 1, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Aparrently XR's 'legal team' have been seeking advice on such thorny questions as whether there's any law that makes a conversation in a public street protected private communication.
> 
> They've also been telling people to represent themselves.
> 
> These people are making me wish I'd invested heavily in facepalms a few months back.


I volunteered to support arrested ppl last Saturday. Bindmans was representing people

I agree though that the campaign tactics are patchy at present


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2018)

Extinction rebellion have about 70 supporters in the (currently forming up) Together for climate change (sic) demo taking place today. It is expected they will get 1000 overall and are marching to Whitehall at 13:30 with a rally expected (until 15:00).


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2018)

Well they are off and have about 450 people. Well behaved thus far.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Well they are off and have about 450 people. Well behaved thus far.


Down from last time then


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2018)

They marched along a pre agreed set route. They handed in a petition to 10 Downing street. They had speeches in Richmond Terrace (Not blocking Whitehall). They went home. 

Not exactly RTS II


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2018)

TopCat said:


> They marched along a pre agreed set route. They handed in a petition to 10 Downing street. They had speeches in Richmond Terrace (Not blocking Whitehall). They went home.
> 
> Not exactly RTS II


Last week they said they were appealing to the queen because politicians had failed. Now they are handing in petitions to the politicians


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 1, 2018)

TopCat said:


> They marched along a pre agreed set route. They handed in a petition to 10 Downing street. They had speeches in Richmond Terrace (Not blocking Whitehall). They went home.
> 
> Not exactly RTS II


To be fair it wasn’t an XR thing, it was just a climate change march that they were at. Way too many speeches though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 3, 2018)

rich! said:


> I now know one person who has refused to work with them on the grounds that their stance on NVDA includes "shop anyone who seems violent to the police"...



Oh, a bit like the SWP, then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 3, 2018)

Brainaddict said:


> A friend of mine is interested in this and despite my scepticism I might go along to something with them. News that 'we' have killed off 60% of all animals does have me _slightly _annoyed and worried for the future, and it's depressing that so few people seem bothered/empowered enough to do anything about it.



Don't worry, it wasn't "we" who killed all the animals, it was me. Alone.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 3, 2018)

I'm a member of the Greens, but my personal opinion of ER is much like my opinion of the Green Party in general: Too _bourgeois_, too attuned to white middle-class urban concerns, too accommodationist. It's all about doing stuff within the bounds of the system. Reformism doesn't work, even when backed up by constant low-level NVDA. Sometimes the genie has to escape the bottle, so the system gets shaken up. Pissing off a few thousand drivers once a week, will never achieve anything but polishing a few egos.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 16, 2018)

From their FAQs
FAQs | Extinction Rebellion


*Q: ‘Your demands are vague, slightly confusing and perhaps even contradictory. Why do you think you can achieve them?’*

n XR: This is probably because we have to write things down in short ‘soundbites’ that are communicable as headlines. There is much more detail underneath them. We are using cutting edge techniques to build a resilient mass movement. We know the task ahead is daunting and therefore that the likelihood of success may seem slim, but we are willing to do all we can to try and achieve this. Ultimately though, we are doing this because it is the right thing to do, in *part we remain unattached to outcomes, meaning that although we hope we can save something of life on earth we try to stay motivated by action being the right thing to do (virtue ethics) rather than taking action because we think it will work (utilitarian ethics).* However, the more of us that act on this basis in the face of the galloping global assault on our children’s futures, the more likely we hit the tipping point where the impossible becomes inevitable.

Consciously impractical


----------



## LDC (Dec 16, 2018)

That Gail Bradbrook was profiled on Radio 4 yesterday. Predictably vomit inducing.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 21, 2018)

Outside BBC today in London


----------



## 8ball (Dec 21, 2018)

I wonder when it will be christened "The Gore-Tex Uprising".


----------



## BristolEcho (Dec 21, 2018)

They were out BBC Bristol today too. I gave a ding of my bell for them and they didn't even respond. Fuck them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Someone there referred to him as that. Was he on the Anonymous demo with a Trump flag?


He was put today with a small brexit lot on whitehall


----------



## TopCat (Feb 10, 2019)

He looks a lot like the kid out of Mad magazine


----------



## 8ball (Feb 10, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> They were out BBC Bristol today too. I gave a ding of my bell for them and they didn't even respond. Fuck them.



Maybe they didn’t have any working class people with them to discern the meaning behind the ding.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 1, 2019)

BREAKING: XR activists strip politics bare in the House of Commons, and point out the real elephant in the room: climate breakdown and ecological collapse. 
Affinity groups involved:
#petroleum9 #XRTerrebels #XRClimateGimps #XRSomewhere #XRSnowflakes


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 1, 2019)

Live and direct from the HoC. Almost naked protest. 

https://www.facebook.com/ExtinctionRebellion


----------



## TopCat (Apr 1, 2019)

Hahahah


----------



## TopCat (Apr 1, 2019)

They ain't RTS but this is better than anything else thus far.


----------



## LDC (Apr 1, 2019)

More idiots in the idiot house.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 14, 2019)

Well they have announced bold plans for this week. Nice to have something other than Brexit in the news.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 15, 2019)

Yeah I'm thinking bout going up and supporting for a day or two, nice to have something else than just weasel words and "let's build the party" politics.

Anyone else def going? I'm sure many/most of us here have plenty of criticisms and reservations of XR but a major shutdown of central London to oppose the environmental impact of capitalism? Maybe even some good old baby-eating.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 15, 2019)

I'm in Parliament Square. Growing numbers. Speeches. No road blocks yet. Less hippie looking than the previous demos.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 15, 2019)

This nonce is here too. Note the mobile number.


----------



## maomao (Apr 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> . No road blocks yet.


Waterloo Bridge is blocked.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This nonce is here too. Note the mobile number. View attachment 167754



It’s folk like this that are another problem!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This nonce is here too. Note the mobile number. View attachment 167754


31 counties of ireland are sighing with relief that he's not sporting their crests


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2019)

Loving the boat


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2019)

'Major' disruption for Oxford buses hit by environmentalists' roadblocks


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 15, 2019)

maomao said:


> Waterloo Bridge is blocked.


Completely blocked, too - not just a few people at either end, it's full of people sitting around and having a nice time in the sun.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Completely blocked, too - not just a few people at either end, it's full of people sitting around and having a nice time in the sun.


i am, in solidarity, sitting around albeit out of the sun


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2019)

So the BBC News at one is totally ignoring the protests. 20 mins in and not a mention.


----------



## klang (Apr 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i am, in solidarity, sitting around albeit out of the sun


in solidarity I'm in the sun, but standing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2019)

it's made the website Climate protesters block London roads


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 15, 2019)

editor you can make a complaint in welsh if you want
BBC - Complaints - Home


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 15, 2019)

I took the day off and have been going round the five sites with a camera, though I'm having some lunch at the moment. Very happy atmosphere so far but that can be hard to keep going - I don't know what proportion are in for the long haul. Certainly having multiple locations seems like a good tactic


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I took the day off and have been going round the five sites with a camera, though I'm having some lunch at the moment. Very happy atmosphere so far but that can be hard to keep going - I don't know what proportion are in for the long haul. Certainly having multiple locations seems like a good tactic


Fancy posting the pics on the urban75 blog?


----------



## maomao (Apr 15, 2019)

Last time it was the weekend. This time it's the Easter Hols. They should try when it's actually busy in London.


----------



## editor (Apr 15, 2019)

maomao said:


> Last time it was the weekend. This time it's the Easter Hols. They should try when it's actually busy in London.


It's _always _busy in London these days.


----------



## maomao (Apr 15, 2019)

editor said:


> It's _always _busy in London these days.


Well yes but do you want to piss off tourists or bankers and politicians?


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 15, 2019)

editor said:


> Fancy posting the pics on the urban75 blog?


I'm heading back to edit them - I'll see any are any good!


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## Southlondon (Apr 15, 2019)

Is it the same locations tomorrow?


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## spitfire (Apr 15, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> Is it the same locations tomorrow?



I’m at Marble Arch and they look like they’re here for the long run. Spoke to a chap on one of the barricades at Oxford Circus and he said they were going to try and stay for a week.

Currently watching Alabama 3 on the back of a truck. There’s fairly decent sized crowd scattered around the junction and a lot of tents going up in the green bit.]


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## spitfire (Apr 15, 2019)




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## spitfire (Apr 15, 2019)




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## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> Is it the same locations tomorrow?



I went by Waterloo bridge this evening. People turning up with rucksacks. They are going to sleep out tonight. 

So yes imo same locations tomorrow. 

Going to take them some ( vegan) food. Soya milk. No cows

Waterloo bridge has been turned into a "Garden Bridge".


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## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2019)

Waterloo "garden" bridge.


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## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2019)

Oxford Circus


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## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2019)

Its very well organised. Kitchens, toilets, and entertainment. 

Lot of older people. Noticed some had quaker badges.

Heard someone say its mainly the older people manning the edges of protest.


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## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2019)

Few more photos from Waterloo bridge.


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## Gramsci (Apr 15, 2019)

Another group called Green Anti Capitalist Front had separate protest in the City.
 u


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## Dan U (Apr 15, 2019)

looks like police are moving in on Waterloo Bridge and telling anyone who doesn't want to get nicked to move to Marble Arch, presumably same at other places too if they are still going.


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## TopCat (Apr 15, 2019)

They made a big impact on London and beyond and I can't see the police wearing this for several days. Given many are prepared to be nicked it will take a while and a lot of doing.


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## TopCat (Apr 15, 2019)

Dan U said:


> looks like police are moving in on Waterloo Bridge and telling anyone who doesn't want to get nicked to move to Marble Arch, presumably same at other places too if they are still going.[/QUOTE



Is there live feed?


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2019)

From the BBCTravelAlert twitter account just now:


> Waterloo Bridge remains blocked. Protesters have chained themselves to a van in the middle of the road. Pedestrians and cyclists are crossing over. From the Imax Roundabout: Stamford St looks slow to Blackfriars Rd.  Blackfriars Bridge is slow crossing over to Blackfriars Stn.



And a short video of them:


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2019)

Apparently all four sites have been held: More than 100 people arrested in London climate change protests


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

Waterloo bridge now. Dropped off some food.


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

The boat still at Oxford Circus this morning.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 16, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Waterloo bridge now. Dropped off some food.


What will they need? I was going to pop by and bring some supplies but am not sure what they might need...


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

Oxford circus 
More people turning up now.


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> What will they need? I was going to pop by and bring some supplies but am not sure what they might need...



Soya milk, tinned fruit.


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## mojo pixy (Apr 16, 2019)

Past experience of sit-downs like this tells me the best things to bring are sandwiches, and alcohol gel for hand cleaning. For anyone really committed to bringing gifts, dry blankets / foil blankets (unsure about plastics etc in this context but still) will almost certainly be welcome.


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## mojo pixy (Apr 16, 2019)

I was going to add also _bottles of water_, but I feel in this particular case that might create conflict as much as slake thirst. But if anyone can drive a 1000-litre water bowser down to any of the sites I reckon they'd be hero of the day


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 16, 2019)




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## Miss-Shelf (Apr 16, 2019)

Waterloo more arrests just now
Met want to consolidate eveyone at Marble Arch
All sites thinned out over night ...can anyone do an evening or 1am shift at sites (Not all arrest roles e.g. stewards, legal observing, welfare, tea/water provision)

Great need for bike and trailer going between sites and anyone who could go do water runs in early hours of morning would be v welcome at any sites


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## TopCat (Apr 16, 2019)

Well I will go and have a mooch later when work is done.

Rumours abound that tomorrow people will be gluing themselves to the outside of trains.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2019)

Certainly some sort of tube disruption planned: Tube Services April 17th - Extinction Rebellion making the point that this is about causing disruption and economic damage. I am already seeing liberal outrage on twitter at least.


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## souljacker (Apr 16, 2019)

I was working at the NT all day today, saw the police dragging off protesters around lunchtime. The crowd was smaller when I left about an hour ago but still there and bridge still well and truly closed.

I saw something on Twitter (I think, maybe on here) where someone was pointing out that, due to police cuts, they haven't got the resources to deal with this at the moment. I have to agree. There were hardly any coppers on the south side of Waterloo bridge. I've seen more FIT coppers at football than the combined amount of normal filth on the bridge today.


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## TopCat (Apr 16, 2019)

it was thinning out on Waterloo this evening. Plus they were calling for help from that lot to join Oxford Circus. Police will go in tonight maybe. Authorities are rather worried about provoking too much given the threats to glue hands to Tube trains tomorrow morning.


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## kenny g (Apr 16, 2019)

Heading for waterloo. Let us know if needed elsewhere.


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## TopCat (Apr 16, 2019)

The thing is, even if the police nick people and clear the bridge, the cells will be full with protesters, cops and vans tied up, then 50 people can just go and re take the bridge at 07:45 tomorrow?


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2019)

Reports of mass clearances should be balanced vs that old friend, TfL Traffic News, which is one of the best sources of live info about demos. Marble Arch, Hyde Park Corner, Oxford Circus, Waterloo Bridge all reported still blocked.


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## kenny g (Apr 16, 2019)

Waterloo bridge is very nice music and good vibes..


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## Riklet (Apr 16, 2019)

Coming up tomorrow not been able to yet.. probs going Oxford Circus so PM anyone round that way! Hope numbers hold for tomorrow... looks like a good party from the vids Ive been sent.


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## spitfire (Apr 16, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Coming up tomorrow not been able to yet.. probs going Oxford Circus so PM anyone round that way! Hope numbers hold for tomorrow... looks like a good party from the vids Ive been sent.



Interesting comment that reminded me one thing I noticed was how serious some of them are about no drink/drugs. There was a very earnest young man who came on before Alabama 3 and told the crowd, at length, no drink or drugs. I think Larry Love got told off as well for drinking and smoking (and swearing) on stage. This had the usual effect on Larry when you tell him not to do something.....

Same earnest young man came out into the crowd to tell 2 people who turned up with Stella's that it was verboten.

I can see why they're doing it and I understand but it felt a bit weird to me and my fuzzy memories of RTS and CJB marches...  

Anyway, it's their thing so I'll happily go along with it.

Hope they are all doing well and keeping warm out there tonight. More power to their elbows.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Waterloo bridge is very nice music and good vibes..


It was Waterloo Bridge that impressed me the most when I went around yesterday - I was expecting to just see a roadblock, but the whole bridge was basically transformed into the sort of "garden bridge" that would actually be good. IMO one of the important aspects of protests is changing the nature of how people relate to space and that was really doing it. Not everyone is consciously aware of this but they still act on it. Cops for instance are incredibly against people changing relationships to space - they're perfectly happy as long as demos stick to arranged limits no matter what happens, but step outside those limits and you are in trouble, seen this on many occasions. Stay within the tape and you're a safe, known quantity - go outside and you're a challenge. It's not a surprise either that "whose streets? our streets!" is a chant popular with everyone.


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## kenny g (Apr 16, 2019)

.


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## kenny g (Apr 16, 2019)

Arrests in oxford circus.


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

Apart from taking photos had a couple of short chats today.

ed has put it on his Urban blog two articles.

London Extinction Rebellion protests: the Garden Bridge, overnight occupation and today’s updates – Tues 16th Apr 2019

The Evening Standard put it on page nine today after Rasta mouse writer benefit fraud/ getting primary school places in Chelsea articles. Says it all about ES priorities.

My first chat was with nice guy who said he had never done anything like this before. He had done all the letter writing etc and he joined this as he felt working through all the "legitimate" channels hadn't worked.

We talked about the fact that a lot of older people are involved in various ways. Its not only young people.

He said he was professional person who couldnt risk his job by being arrested.

Extinction / Rebellion don't expect people to go all out. They accept people have constraints. So you volunteer to do certain things. And aren't made to feel that you aren't proper activist if you arent up for arrest.

I must say I found this attitude refreshing.

My second chat was up at Oxford Circus. I cycle around London all day. So walked through Oxford Circus several times.

He offered me leaflet be apologized for the inconvenience of closing Oxford Circus. I told him no problem. Its made my life easier. Its been actually pleasant cycling around West End today. Due to Oxford Circus and Marble March protest Oxford Street and Regesnt Street are almost empty. Its been delightful.

Just shows what a better environment it would be if cities had less traffic.

I was only a few days ago telling co worker that cycling around West End for a few hours made me feel stressed out.

The ambience at Oxford Circus and Waterloo bridge are different.

Oxford Circus has loads of bemused shoppers and tourists taking photos. Despite their best efforts not a lot of interaction between protestors and Joe public. There was a talk of public assemblies and waving hands. But I think the best thing was the banners letting people know what this was about.

No one was complaining. The Tube was open.

Not sure if they disrupt Tube how well that is going to go down.

Waterloo bridge is a bit separate from the consumer capitalism of Oxford Street. So felt more chilled out. The bridge is open to pedestrians and cyclists.

I was impressed by this. They have kept the cycle lane clear.

Bit more chilled at Waterloo.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2019)

I think disrupting the tube is going to be a difficult point but they need to do it. That's the only thing that makes a difference in London - closing Oxford Circus and Waterloo Bridge etc might be obvious but nobody actually gives a shit apart from taxi drivers. Half the roads in the centre of town are closed all the time because of construction works anyway and even when they're not closed the traffic is ridiculous. If you want to make an impact beyond a PR one you have to target public transport.


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Coming up tomorrow not been able to yet.. probs going Oxford Circus so PM anyone round that way! Hope numbers hold for tomorrow... looks like a good party from the vids Ive been sent.



It was great sound system from the boat at Oxford Circus. I took video but couldn't upload it here.


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think disrupting the tube is going to be a difficult point but they need to do it. That's the only thing that makes a difference in London - closing Oxford Circus and Waterloo Bridge etc might be obvious but nobody actually gives a shit apart from taxi drivers. Half the roads in the centre of town are closed all the time because of construction works anyway and even when they're not closed the traffic is ridiculous. If you want to make an impact beyond a PR one you have to target public transport.



Well my Black Cab friends haven't been complaining. They are on a meter. And they can't really say much as they have been blocking Tottenham Court Road recently.

I notice Cops haven't been arresting Black Cab drivers. Black Cab drivers have been at war with Sadiq and TFL for some time. But the Met haven't been using anti terrorist legislation against them.

Interesting if you are hard working Cabbie you get treated differently.

One of my van driving mates said the cops should have been arresting Cabbies for the Tottenham Court Road blockages by Black Cabs.

Most people who work in West End use public transport. IMO public transport is green. As is cycling. So Im not sure targeting public transport is great idea.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 16, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Most people who work in West End use public transport. IMO public transport is green. As is cycling. So Im not sure targeting public transport is great idea.


The point is to cause disruption. As you say, everyone uses public transport so that's what you want to target to cause disruption. It's not a demonstration of how to run a better world or anything.


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## kenny g (Apr 16, 2019)

Was really impressed by how self  disciplined it was compared to what we got up to 20 years ago. Got offered a discount from the coffee cart just south of waterloo bridge when I said we were heading there. What felt so good was thinking about real politics after the endless cycle of which form of brexshit we are going to be fed.


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## Gramsci (Apr 16, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The point is to cause disruption. As you say, everyone uses public transport so that's what you want to target to cause disruption. It's not a demonstration of how to run a better world or anything.



I disagree. 

Disrupting public transport is going to potentially alienate ordinary working people. Not political establishment or the Uber rich in London. 

Take this quote from the Extinction Rebellion webpage you quote:



> This action has also the important effect of alerting the public to crisis by disrupting their daily lives.



Like they don't know? I'm not happy with this. 

The ordinary Joe working in West End isn't inconvenienced by the present protests. I saw office workers out in Oxford Circus enjoying the sound system. They can still get home on tube. 

Th webpage also says big investment in public transport is needed to combat climate change. So why disrupt it?


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## Dan U (Apr 16, 2019)

I saw a video earlier that was made last time they did the bridges and they had people filling in forms stating if they were willing to be arrested, go to prison etc. It struck both as the most 'British' approach to protest ever but also entirely consensual and as noted earlier, not being judgemental to those who didn't want or couldn't go that far.


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## Gromit (Apr 16, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think disrupting the tube is going to be a difficult point but they need to do it. That's the only thing that makes a difference in London - closing Oxford Circus and Waterloo Bridge etc might be obvious but nobody actually gives a shit apart from taxi drivers. Half the roads in the centre of town are closed all the time because of construction works anyway and even when they're not closed the traffic is ridiculous. If you want to make an impact beyond a PR one you have to target public transport.


My fear is that they don't understand the underground. Few people do. 
In their ignorance I'm pretty sure they are going to put someone's life at risk.
Maybe their own lives (which is up to them) but also a bystander's by trapping them in a tunnel when they are in need of urgent medical attention and the medics don't get to them in time to defib them or something.
That's my biggest worry about tomorrow.


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## Gromit (Apr 16, 2019)

I'm not even going to go into the irony of disrupting a public transport system when one of the tools to reduce climate change is more public transport not less. Tube systems are the exact opposite of the enemy. I lied... I went into it.


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## Dan U (Apr 16, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Cops for instance are incredibly against people changing relationships to space - they're perfectly happy as long as demos stick to arranged limits no matter what happens, but step outside those limits and you are in trouble, seen this on many occasions. Stay within the tape and you're a safe, known quantity - go outside and you're a challenge. It's not a surprise either that "whose streets? our streets!" is a chant popular with everyone.



The challenge for the police is they don't know what to do here though. Everyone is being so reasonable and when they nick people they are not phased by it. 

As much as part of me thinks cranking out London Acid City from a lorry like the old days would be good, one lobbed bottle yesterday and this would all be over after a kettle but they haven't given the police enough to wade in and it must be baffling them.


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## Southlondon (Apr 16, 2019)

spitfire said:


> I’m at Marble Arch and they look like they’re here for the long run. Spoke to a chap on one of the barricades at Oxford Circus and he said they were going to try and stay for a week.
> 
> Currently watching Alabama 3 on the back of a truck. There’s fairly decent sized crowd scattered around the junction and a lot of tents going up in the green bit.]
> 
> ...


I found them at Waterloo Bridge this morning and did my bit sitting down and getting arrested. They took me to barking as all the local cells were already full so I guess it’s having an impact on the police if nothing else. Sitting in the cells for hours then struggling back across London I did have my doubts as to whether this really is the best way to make an impact. They will run out of volunteers to get nicked. Most of the protesters were just standing back and watching


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## kenny g (Apr 16, 2019)

Really difficult one. The problem with the latter stages of mayday and G20 is that some people were getting caught up in levels of violence they never intended before they set out. Severe sentences were served. Others were  injured by police violence. Like any tactic once these current ones become normalised they will be irrelevent and ineffective but at the moment it most definetly doesn't feel normal in large parts of central london.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 16, 2019)

Dan U said:


> The challenge for the police is they don't know what to do here though. Everyone is being so reasonable and when they nick people they are not phased by it.
> 
> As much as part of me thinks cranking out London Acid City from a lorry like the old days would be good, one lobbed bottle yesterday and this would all be over after a kettle but they haven't given the police enough to wade in and it must be baffling them.


In 2009 the police smashed the climate camp in the city without provocation from the campers. When they're ordered to use force they will use force, provocation or no.


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## Ted Striker (Apr 16, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> But if anyone can drive a 1000-litre water bowser down to any of the sites I reckon they'd be hero of the day



Shame the police just sold off their super-high-powered one


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## Sue (Apr 17, 2019)

Walked across Waterloo Bridge about 11:15 tonight. Still blocked, some music happening, some tents up, all going on on the southern half of the bridge. Couple of police to the north side, no others about that I saw.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2019)

Blocks still going apparently


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## Dan U (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> In 2009 the police smashed the climate camp in the city without provocation from the campers. When they're ordered to use force they will use force, provocation or no.



Yeah, I am sure at some point they will get the nod.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 17, 2019)

Gromit said:


> My fear is that they don't understand the underground. Few people do.
> In their ignorance I'm pretty sure they are going to put someone's life at risk.
> Maybe their own lives (which is up to them) but also a bystander's by trapping them in a tunnel when they are in need of urgent medical attention and the medics don't get to them in time to defib them or something.
> That's my biggest worry about tomorrow.


I saw somebody receiving urgent treatment in the street and one of the organisers sprinted to a nearby uni and back with heir defibrillator. I was really impressed that they had thought to research the nearest defib and have someone assigned to dash for it. 
I think they're doing everything they can to mitigate the risk and the impact on the public.


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## TopCat (Apr 17, 2019)

Any news on the public transport actions?


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## TopCat (Apr 17, 2019)

Loads of plod gathering on Waterloo Bridge.


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## souljacker (Apr 17, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Loads of plod gathering on Waterloo Bridge.



Yeah, just walked under it and there were a load heading up to the bridge. Could just have been shift change though.


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## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

Loads of cops at Waterloo bridge


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)




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## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

Arrests no w


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## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

Another arrest


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## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

Police have backed off for the moment.

Protestors lining the bridge.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)




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## Flavour (Apr 17, 2019)

how many people on the bridge?


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## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

More photos of arrest. And people have chained them     selves to the underside of the truck.


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## TopCat (Apr 17, 2019)

Protester glued to DLR Train at Canary Wharf. Two on the roof as well. Suited and booted.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

Saw BTP at London Bridge this morning in twos on the platforms trying to look busy. Clearly on watch for protestors.


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## TopCat (Apr 17, 2019)

If this spreads to the Underground it will be unprecedented.


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## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

Flavour said:


> how many people on the bridge?



In all about 50. But it never was that busy in morning. People turn up later. 

The police have moved them from ends of the bridge. 

The police are now milling around the site. 

Trying to be "friendly"


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)




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## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Protester glued to DLR Train at Canary Wharf. Two on the roof as well.


Dickheads.


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## TopCat (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Dickheads.


I would not kick them out of bed to get to you.


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## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I would not kick them out of bed to get to you.


I find that reassuring.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I find that reassuring.


TopCat's just going to make sure he sleeps on the side nearest the door so he doesn't have to eject them


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## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

Interesting stuff.

I've not been a fan of XR or its strategy thus far, but we'll see where they go after this.


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## Flavour (Apr 17, 2019)

tough one, public transport. the media won't give them much more coverage if they block it, and they will mainly inconvenience normal people. but i do love those individualist anarchist communiques that proudly boast of throwing a spanner in the wheels of capital flows by spray-painting over a traffic light in the suburbs or whatever. if XR had some funny communiques i might be more sympathetic to them.


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## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

it's not a perfect movement...but it's doing something to get climate catastrophe being talked about
we've all got to ask ourselves what are *we* doing to get the conversation going and to force change?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> it's not a perfect movement...but it's doing something to get climate catastrophe being talked about
> we've all got to ask ourselves what are *we* doing to get the conversation going and to force change?


also,  there are loads of groups from all over England [and a few Welsh and Scottish groups ]  but proportionally,   Londoners are really unrepresented...   why is that?   Are people just turning up for  a couple of hours to take photos and listen to a band and going again,  do you think?  

Lots of these groups who've travelled have taken a few days [or more] off work - can you take a day or two and do an overnight shift at the road blocks or to help  in kitchens, cycle delivery between sites ,	cycling water back to sites [very appreciated],  helping in the kitchen,   doing a well being shift [day or night]	legal observing/stewarding  - so many ways to help with little risk of arrest

Also,  well away from the risk of arrest,   people are needed all over london to go to police stations to provide support to people after they've been arrested

If you've got a few hours,  can you join the phone banking from home

This afternoon,  there's a freelance office space being set up in marble arch - come from your office with your laptop [if you can]

parliament square site would appreciate people and music in the evening 

Home - Extinction Rebellion


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

As relevant as ever. This is worth reading when thinking about XR.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> it's not a perfect movement...but it's doing something to get climate catastrophe being talked about
> we've all got to ask ourselves what are *we* doing to get the conversation going and to force change?



Tbf some of us have more than put our shift in and been doing stuff on this for decades.

Doesn't mean we're going to go and get ourselves arrested on purpose though.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Apr 17, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> it's not a perfect movement...but it's doing something to get climate catastrophe being talked about
> we've all got to ask ourselves what are *we* doing to get the conversation going and to force change?



This, yet not sure how great a tactic asking people to get arrested is, especially if those people are from BAME backgrounds or suffer from MH issues. They are way too friendly with the police, seems naive.


----------



## maomao (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm enjoying London grinding to a halt. Makes my job harder but less my fault when it goes wrong. Had an upset customer moaning 'when will they learn that marching doesn't work'. Not impressed when I told her it wasnt a march.


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## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Threshers_Flail said:


> This, yet not sure how great a tactic asking people to get arrested is, especially if those people are from BAME backgrounds or suffer from MH issues. They are way too friendly with the police, seems naive.


there is a stated and voiced policy of people needing to risk assess own capacity for arrest and acknowledgement that BAME and people with MH problems [for different reasons] will be impacted with a greater adverse effect from arrest.

I think where people are in affinity groups eg three or four people who will look out for one or two arrest able people then there is a support structure[one to observe & report on aresst  ,  one to support &report on aresst] .   Outside of affinity groups are legal observers and well being  who can try to do that for people not in a group.

Some arrests [eg obstruction of public highway] are obviously lower risk.	I guess it's the multiple arrests and higher risk arrests [the DLR today] which are hard from every angle


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## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Tbf some of us have more than put our shift in and been doing stuff on this for decades.
> 
> Doesn't mean we're going to go and get ourselves arrested on purpose though.


I agree with both points.   I know there's many on here in that position
There's many, however,  who could do more to act [in a variety of ways] to combat climate catastrophe beyond just criticising XR


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I agree with both points.   I know there's many on here in that position
> There's many, however,  who could do more to act [in a variety of ways] to combat climate catastrophe beyond just criticising XR



Yep. But I'm not sure that's a useful road to travel.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> As relevant as ever. This is worth reading when thinking about XR.


It's a bit long. Do you have a précis?


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## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> It's a bit long. Do you have a précis?



No. It's not that long. It's worth reading in full .


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## editor (Apr 17, 2019)

I liked this 






A modest Extinction Rebellion statement on Coldharbour Lane, Brixton


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## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

Lot of people at Waterloo bridge now. A lot of families with children. More press doing intervews. Less Police presence. Good atmosphere now. Some gardening going on.


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## Crispy (Apr 17, 2019)

It's a really good logo 
I mean it: Not used for anything else, drawable by a child, memorable, has meaning
Up there with CND


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

Crispy said:


> It's a really good logo
> I mean it: Not used for anything else, drawable by a child, memorable, has meaning
> Up there with CND



It is very neat. And the protest is epic, three days and counting, that pink boat is still in the middle of Oxford Circus. First class


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

...and they've got stickers/posters all over the place. They're on top of their brand I'll give them that.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2019)

So I saw this photo on some ER twitter page:







...and it explains better than any words could why I'm having nothing to do with this stuff. Him on the right I can fucking smell from here.


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## souljacker (Apr 17, 2019)

You can skate the bridge too!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So I saw this photo on some ER twitter page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i didn't realise such hippy garb still existed.

but i'm glad they're doing what they're doing, even though we're probably fucked anyway (google "nitrous oxide" 114)


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

The stickers and posters are everywhere, there is some serious money behind this...any idea where the funds are from?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't realise such hippy garb still existed.



You've not been to Bristol lately then.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't realise such hippy garb still existed.



I hoped it didn't exist anymore....


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

souljacker said:


> You can skate the bridge too!


They should place the ramp width-wise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> You've not been to Bristol lately then.


no indeed


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> They should place the ramp width-wise.


you're not one for health and safety are you


----------



## Crispy (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So I saw this photo on some ER twitter page:
> 
> ...and it explains better than any words could why I'm having nothing to do with this stuff.



Your distaste is understandable, but this is the largest and most well-organised movement for this cause (arguably the #1 most important of our time) right now. If people like you and I *did* have something to do with this stuff, then it would cease to be a hippyfest.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no indeed



Can't in good conscience recommend it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So I saw this photo on some ER twitter page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not everyone looks or dresses like that ffs


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Not everyone looks or dresses like that ffs



No but if there's even a chance of me running into these four I'm out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So I saw this photo on some ER twitter page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i'm sure i've met the woman on the left but i can't for the life of me recall the context


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm sure i've met the woman on the left but i can't for the life of me recall the context



She was trying to sell you some healing quartz for your vagina.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 17, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Not everyone looks or dresses like that ffs


This does seem to be a congregation of those who do.... 
But I'm not hating on them. Whatever clothes they show up in, they're committed and present and I've got respect for their tenacity.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No but if there's even a chance of me running into these four I'm out.



Err...I think you are missing the point somewhat, it's not about you Frank.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> No but if there's even a chance of me running into these four I'm out.


It's your fault then. 
DOWN WITH SPOOKYFRANK!!1!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> This does seem to be a congregation of those who do....
> But I'm not hating on them. Whatever clothes they show up in, they're committed and present and I've got respect for their tenacity.



Pfft, glad to hear it... some young people in their festival clothes is hardly a crime.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2019)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> It's your fault then.
> DOWN WITH SPOOKYFRANK!!1!



If the end of the world is the price we have to pay to get rid of hippies then I'm on board with that.


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> So I saw this photo on some ER twitter page:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did you turn into a Daily Mail twat?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 17, 2019)

editor said:


> When did you turn into a Daily Mail twat?



Someone's got that same top at home I can tell.


----------



## souljacker (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> They should place the ramp width-wise.


They should shove it up your arse!


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> No. It's not that long. It's worth reading in full .


It's nearly 20,000 words, which is more of a booklet than an article to just throw into a chat on tactics, but suit yourself


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Someone's got that same top at home I can tell.


Is it you? Maybe it's self hate you're expressing here with all your misanthropy and hate.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

souljacker said:


> You can skate the bridge too!



Is that spray paint they've plastered the bridge with?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Someone's got that same top at home I can tell.



Fucking hell Frank. Stop being a knob.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

Easy to spot those with no protest experience and how to avoid a criminal damage charge.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> View attachment 168068


Ahhh, a vegan alternative I presume.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

Oh look...Cunty wants in on the being a cunt action on this thread. Now there's a surprise.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

Waterloo Bridge is made from self-cleaning concrete, so I reckon you can spray paint it and avoid a charge anyway.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh look...Cunty wants in on the being a cunt action on this thread. Now there's a surprise.


I've been being a cunt on here for a while, ya melt.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Waterloo Bridge is made from self-cleaning concrete, so I reckon you can spray paint it and avoid a charge anyway.



Everyday is a school day!  

Self-cleaning concrete

Still think plod would arrest first and argue later if peeps were openly armed with spray cans.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Waterloo Bridge is made from self-cleaning concrete, so I reckon you can spray paint it and avoid a charge anyway.


I doubt the road surface is. Give it a go.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I doubt the road surface is. Give it a go.



Nah, XR state no booze or drugs at the protest, plus no weapons and no violence. Sounds boring as fuck and not worth the train fare in to town.


----------



## newbie (Apr 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> As relevant as ever. This is worth reading when thinking about XR.


is it?  why?

In those days there were plenty of mags publishing plenty of discussion about the need for non violent direct action, the impatience of those who insisted that nothing would change without violence, the views of others that any such stunts would detract from serious campaigning and so on and so on. I've got boxes of them.  Why pick on that particularly wordy, American, article from 1979?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

They’ve glued themselves to Corbyn’s house now.

A move that might just see the MailOnline implode.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They’ve glued themselves to Corbyn’s house now.
> 
> A move that might just see the MailOnline implode.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> It's nearly 20,000 words, which is more of a booklet than an article to just throw into a chat on tactics, but suit yourself


in the time you've spent complaining about it you could have read half of it


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> This does seem to be a congregation of those who do....
> But I'm not hating on them. Whatever clothes they show up in, they're committed and present and I've got respect for their tenacity.


not to mention their confidence in wandering the streets of london dressed like that


----------



## andysays (Apr 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They’ve glued themselves to Corbyn’s house now.
> 
> A move that might just see the MailOnline implode.



Extinction Rebellion London activists glued to Corbyn's home


> Climate change activists glued themselves to a train and others are protesting outside Jeremy Corbyn's home in the third day of protests. Four people have now glued themselves together at the Labour leader's home. The activists, who are sitting against the Labour leader's house in north London, said they supported him but wanted the Labour Party to go further than declaring a "climate emergency".


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 17, 2019)

There's an awful lot of redheads down here; I found my spiritual home


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 17, 2019)

I might go home with a massive hole in my ear lobe..,


----------



## killer b (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm in folkestone for the easter weekend, what are the chances of this still being on by saturday?


----------



## killer b (Apr 17, 2019)

BTW, a straw poll of my fairly apolitical office has universal approval and a surprising amount of enthusiasm for this action, if that means anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

andysays said:


> Extinction Rebellion London activists glued to Corbyn's home


the mail's take on it


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Your distaste is understandable, but this is the largest and most well-organised movement for this cause (arguably the #1 most important of our time) right now. If people like you and I *did* have something to do with this stuff, then it would cease to be a hippyfest.


This


----------



## andysays (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the mail's take on it
> View attachment 168079



No mention of how much Corbyn's house is worth?

Also, WTF have they got against dancing and yoga, it's hardly dope, guns and fucking in the street or whatever that old slogan was...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the mail's take on it
> View attachment 168079


Some quality froth there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

andysays said:


> No mention of how much Corbyn's house is worth?


no


----------



## andysays (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no



"Mail going down pan" thread...


----------



## pinkmonkey (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the mail's take on it


Lock Them All Up - well that's the point isn't it?


----------



## Riklet (Apr 17, 2019)

Get down here Londoners  As I said before, easy to be critical but this is a small fluid movement achieving something. And it could achieve more. And there are plenty of people mumbling away on social media but they arent achieving jack shit in comparison.

Give me a shout anyone who's in Oxford Circus, there's some surprisingly banging tunes. Waterloo Bridge was amazing to see and walk across but the hippy wailing wasnt my thing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2019)

UK police shut off Wi-Fi in London Tube stations to deter climate protestors

Can't say I noticed anything this afternoon, not that it's that reliable anyway. I did see a uniformed copper on the platform at Euston though which I've never seen before.


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

newbie said:


> is it?  why?
> 
> In those days there were plenty of mags publishing plenty of discussion about the need for non violent direct action, the impatience of those who insisted that nothing would change without violence, the views of others that any such stunts would detract from serious campaigning and so on and so on. I've got boxes of them.  Why pick on that particularly wordy, American, article from 1979?



Because, for me at least, the analysis (of 1980s anti-nuke stuff) really resonated with my own experience in the environmental movement. The arguments it makes are just as applicable (imo) to XR today. 

Of course people don't have to read it, but since when has suggesting an interesting read been a bad thing?


----------



## newbie (Apr 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Because, for me at least, the analysis (of 1980s anti-nuke stuff) really resonated with my own experience in the environmental movement. The arguments it makes are just as applicable (imo) to XR today.
> 
> Of course people don't have to read it, but since when has suggesting an interesting read been a bad thing?


It's not bad, just curious.  Someone at Libcom found it and digitised it in 2010, and now you've brought it back into the foreground.  Which seems odd as the actual period is almost unknown these days.

ps And it's about 1970s anti-nuke stuff- within a few months on that being published first Thatcher the Reagan were elected, E P Thompson went on the stump and the focus moved from nuclear power to nuclear weapons, Cruise missiles, Starwars and all that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Because, for me at least, the analysis (of 1980s anti-nuke stuff) really resonated with my own experience in the environmental movement. The arguments it makes are just as applicable (imo) to XR today.
> 
> Of course people don't have to read it, but since when has suggesting an interesting read been a bad thing?


since people stopped read things longer than a sentence


----------



## chilango (Apr 17, 2019)

newbie said:


> It's not bad, just curious.  Someone at Libcom found it and digitised it in 2010, and now you've brought it back into the foreground.  Which seems odd as the actual period is almost unknown these days.
> 
> ps And it's about 1970s anti-nuke stuff- within a few months on that being published first Thatcher the Reagan were elected, E P Thompson went on the stump and the focus moved from nuclear power to nuclear weapons, Cruise missiles, Starwars and all that.



I often recommend Midnight Notes stuff on here tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2019)

**


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> since people stopped read things longer than a sentence



TL:dr


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> UK police shut off Wi-Fi in London Tube stations to deter climate protestors
> 
> Can't say I noticed anything this afternoon, not that it's that reliable anyway. I did see a uniformed copper on the platform at Euston though which I've never seen before.


Likewise. Apart from Waterloo Bridge. I’ve been around Baker st, Barbican Embankment- nothing. Is it just Waterloo Bridge now?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> Likewise. Apart from Waterloo Bridge. I’ve been around Baker st, Barbican Embankment- nothing. Is it just Waterloo Bridge now?


marble arch,  parliament square, oxford circus and waterloo brige


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 17, 2019)

Atmosphere on Waterloo Bridge was nice in the sun. All pretty well set up to stay, and plod keeping a low profile. There's a welcome desk and sign-up board if people want to get involved, and a stage with music if you just want to sit in the sun and enjoy. 

I should imagine if plod want to evict now they will probably do it at night - too many people to do it easily atm.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 17, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Atmosphere on Waterloo Bridge was nice in the sun. All pretty well set up to stay, and plod keeping a low profile. There's a welcome desk and sign-up board if people want to get involved, and a stage with music if you just want to sit in the sun and enjoy.
> 
> I should imagine if plod want to evict now they will probably do it at night - too many people to do it easily atm.


Very much the impression I got 15 mins ago. Overheard a woman saying “not sure I can be bothered to get arrested again”   Lovely vibe - didn’t feel the slightest bit threatened wandering around in a suit. Just felt stupid and embarrassed tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> Overheard a woman saying “not sure I can be bothered to get arrested again”


isn't it lovely to have the choice


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the mail's take on it
> View attachment 168079


a classic of the genre


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2019)

Have they really got so few cells now they've closed most of the nicks?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Have they really got so few cells now they've closed most of the nicks?
> 
> View attachment 168092


Hopefully this will highlight the fact that there needs to be some serious investment in holding cell and prison building.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Hopefully this will highlight the fact that there needs to be some serious investment in holding cell and prison building.



Spymaster's new Left-Wing extension?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Hopefully this will highlight the fact that there needs to be some serious investment in holding cell and prison building.


Your room awaits at the chateau d'if


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2019)

The Met feeling the need to advertise that they can definitely bang up as many people as they want, definitely.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2019)

I'm assuming btw that the usual practice of "carting people off to random police stations in Zone 6 and keeping them there til the buses stop then kicking them out" is still in play here.


----------



## pesh (Apr 17, 2019)

Belter of a pre rush hour electro set from the boat this afternoon.
Overall it feels like the most successful protest in history from the Met.


----------



## keithy (Apr 17, 2019)

Like many I have reservations about some of it but of course it is good that they are doing something. I am not in a position to go there and take any risks at the moment due to MH but am donating money, which other people can also do very easily on the crowdfunder: 2019 Extinction Rebellion - Choose life & rebel with us.

People are donating hundreds, thousands, but any little helps. Somebody asked earlier where the money is coming from, their previous crowdfunder raised over a hundred thousand quid and this one is at over 200,000 now.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nah, XR state no booze or drugs at the protest ...


I walked back through Marble Arch just now and there were very obviously quite a few there who didn't get the memo but it was all fluffy enough.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I walked back through Marble Arch just now and there were very obviously quite a few there who didn't get the memo but it was all fluffy enough.



Never mind, I’m doing my but for the environment by being sat on a train right now...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I walked back through Marble Arch just now and there were very obviously quite a few there who didn't get the memo but it was all fluffy enough.



Even on Monday there were a few folk with cans and jazz cigarettes. I think it's mostly just to give an idea of the expected atmosphere and tone.


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> isn't it lovely to have the choice


Yeah. And years ago I’ve been on demos and marches where people have “chosen” to get nicked. The demo in Trafalgar Square when Cruise missiles  arrived springs to mind. We were up the road at LSE. A few mates got nicked. But it was a bit “queuing up to get arrested “. I generally tried to cause as much shit as possible without getting nicked. I still respect people prepared to do that , but having failed completely once and done 10 days in Pentonville for clobbering a copper at Wapping, I am generally averse to getting nicked these days.


----------



## peterkro (Apr 17, 2019)

Shit load of police heading into Parliament Sq.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2019)

I think some talking heads have been a bit free with the idea that the whole point is for people to arrested - all the XR material makes it quite clear that there are many different things people can do and while it's useful to have people around who are prepared for the idea that they might be arrested and happy to go ahead on that basis, if you're not it isn't a problem. There is definitely symbolic value in people being arrested in these circumstances but it's not a goal in itself. I've seen a few twitter people criticising XR using the latter point who don't seem to be able to look at it broadly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 17, 2019)

peterkro said:


> Shit load of police heading into Parliament Sq.


Never good


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Hopefully this will highlight the fact that there needs to be some serious investment in holding cell and prison building.



The Javid is strong with this one.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think some talking heads have been a bit free with the idea that the whole point is for people to arrested - all the XR material makes it quite clear that there are many different things people can do and while it's useful to have people around who are prepared for the idea that they might be arrested and happy to go ahead on that basis, if you're not it isn't a problem. There is definitely symbolic value in people being arrested in these circumstances but it's not a goal in itself. I've seen a few twitter people criticising XR using the latter point who don't seem to be able to look at it broadly.


Yep. Absolutely no pressure. Really refreshing way to do things.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 17, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> The Javid is strong with this one.


One must admit it’s the way one prefers one’s protests. All very twee, nice and middle class. There was a very posh lady, one of the organisers, interviewed by the BBC just now, praising the police for the ‘gentleness’ of the arrests and their handling of the situation. She seemed rather fragrant. It all seems extremely Urban75 at the moment. Tip top!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> Yeah. And years ago I’ve been on demos and marches where people have “chosen” to get nicked. The demo in Trafalgar Square when Cruise missiles  arrived springs to mind. We were up the road at LSE. A few mates got nicked. But it was a bit “queuing up to get arrested “. I generally tried to cause as much shit as possible without getting nicked. I still respect people prepared to do that , but having failed completely once and done 10 days in Pentonville for clobbering a copper at Wapping, I am generally averse to getting nicked these days.



Got nicked after RTS in Trafalgar Square for twatting a copper. Got a caution as blagged it that my hand slipped. In to his face. But the fuckers didn’t let me out until Sunday lunchtime 


Edit; so shove that up yer aloe vera’d hole, twee, u75 Spymaster


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

keithy said:


> Like many I have reservations about some of it but of course it is good that they are doing something. I am not in a position to go there and take any risks at the moment due to MH but am donating money, which other people can also do very easily on the crowdfunder: 2019 Extinction Rebellion - Choose life & rebel with us.
> 
> People are donating hundreds, thousands, but any little helps. Somebody asked earlier where the money is coming from, their previous crowdfunder raised over a hundred thousand quid and this one is at over 200,000 now.


Lots of fundraisers plus donations plus some big backers 


Pickman's model said:


> Never good


  I've been doing well being support there this week but came off shift to catch up on sleep


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Parliament Square is still blocked. Loads more protesters arrived and reinforced all the blocks 

Some arrests but spirits high

It's been a roller coaster since Sunday


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

peterkro said:


> Shit load of police heading into Parliament Sq.



Yes. My phone battery ran out. So no photos.

They had laid down in road to stop traffic going through Parliament square. 

Lots of media there.

Looked like they did it at rush hour for maximum effect. 

Cops clearly unsure what to do with media around. And lots of phones. 

Plus when some do arrestable action they make sure others are there to observe.


----------



## spitfire (Apr 17, 2019)

Well done Miss Shelf, sorry I can't contribute more, I won't go in to a list of excuses/reasons but hopefully next time can help out somehow.

Crikey....this is 2 hours ago apparently. Never seen so many cops in one place.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Yes. My phone battery ran out. So no photos.
> 
> They had laid down in road to stop traffic going through Parliament square.
> 
> ...


The group's in PS are generally really strong.  Every arrestable person has a non arrestable person (as far as that holds) looking out for them.

Footfall through the square has increased  this week due to bus disruption. 

Regular walkers too have made contact.  Some stopped and chatted

Protesters more humanised as a result than if seen remotely on tv at a demo


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Well done Miss Shelf, sorry I can't contribute more, I won't go in to a list of excuses/reasons but hopefully next time can help out somehow.
> 
> Crikey....this is 2 hours ago apparently. Never seen so many cops in one place.




I noticed a lot more cops at Parliament Square.

The protest has been effective at disrupting London and starting to get mainstream media attention.

Closing roads is imo good idea. Most people who work in London use public transport. As long as Tubes aren't targeted its not causing the average working Londoner to much problem. Buses in central London are painfully slow due to so much traffic so not a great loss losing some of them. Most people walk across Waterloo bridge anyway to the station as its quicker. Boris bikes are doing well. 

Was getting a coffee near Waterloo bridge and overheard a few office workers saying how good the Waterloo bridge demo was. Making it fun does work. 

The Evening Standard, editor ex Tory minister Osborne, headline is Climate change demo costs West End 12 million. 

I expect the Met is under pressure now to start to close down the protest.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The protest has been effective at disrupting London and starting to get mainstream media attention.
> 
> 
> I expect the Met is under pressure now to start to close down the protest.



I expect so 
More Londoners down to observe from pavements really helps resolve of people in the road 

Waterloo Bridge/Oxford circus
also needs support


----------



## Dan U (Apr 17, 2019)

Check out @woodrowmorris’s Tweet: 

Good luck parliament Square. Dibble is marching


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 17, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> The group's in PS are generally really strong.  Every arrestable person has a non arrestable person (as far as that holds) looking out for them.
> 
> Footfall through the square has increased  this week due to bus disruption.
> 
> ...




I've been impressed at the level of organisation and discipline of the Extinction Rebellion protest. As someone who is around West End all day Ive seen a lot of it. Hope my small contribution of photo updates helps. editor has been putting them on Urban75 blog. 

Also making it fun.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I've been impressed at the level of organisation and discipline of the Extinction Rebellion protest. As someone who is around West End all day Ive seen a lot of it. Hope my small contribution of photo updates helps. editor has been putting them on Urban75 blog.
> 
> Also making it fun.


I feel particularly fond of the parliament square camp because it's all the northerners/east Anglians and they're friendly/easy on the whole


----------



## spitfire (Apr 17, 2019)

Lead item on newsnight now FWIW.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 17, 2019)

Dan U said:


> Check out @woodrowmorris’s Tweet:
> 
> Good luck parliament Square. Dibble is marching




No riot gear tho.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 18, 2019)

Everything seems to be still going this morning from what I can see.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Everything seems to be still going this morning from what I can see.


Posh fragrant lady from last night’s BBC interview reckoned the plan was to keep going for another week or two but I can’t see the police staying as fluffy or the public as supportive for that long.


----------



## pesh (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The Evening Standard, editor ex Tory minister Osborne, headline is Climate change demo costs West End 12 million.


he's just giving it the large because he managed to cost The Evening Standard £12 million all by himself.


> The Evening Standard will post a loss of £10m for the year ending in September 2017, a reversal in fortunes for London's paper that poses a big headache for its owner, Evgeny Lebedev.
> 
> The Standard's loss - £9.98m - comes after a recorded profit of £2.2m in the previous year, representing a £12m swing into the red.
> Evening Standard to record £10m loss


----------



## Libertad (Apr 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Your room awaits at the chateau d'if



The Cunty of Monte Christo.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

Its been on the radio four news twice this morning. Interviews with ER supporters. 

Dr Gail Bradbrook was one. A founder of ER.

Discussion was about whether governments were doing enough. 

Centred on whether zero carbon economy should come by 2025 or year 2050. ER saying earlier date. This would need drastic changes. So she was saying there should be a state of emergency like would happen in war time. 

She did say that climate change should be on news every day as its the worlds biggest threat. She has a point. Brexit has dominated news for last year to the exclusion of all else. 

Whether in a democracy people will accept zero carbon economy by 2025 is a question. The government during WW2 wasn't that democratic due to threat to the country. 

I think, from what I've seen, is that ER want a culture change. So move to what is in effect different way of life is seen by people as positive change.


----------



## salem (Apr 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Posh fragrant lady from last night’s BBC interview reckoned the plan was to keep going for another week or two but I can’t see the police staying as fluffy or the public as supportive for that long.



Kinda agree but I'm amazed it's lasted this long and been so low key this long.

It just seems to be there, there isn't a huge amount of outrage and the city doesn't really seem to be grinding to a halt because of it.

It almost feels like TfL letting it live as an experiment or something - the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street.


----------



## maomao (Apr 18, 2019)

salem said:


> Kinda agree but I'm amazed it's lasted this long and been so low key this long.
> 
> It just seems to be there, there isn't a huge amount of outrage and the city doesn't really seem to be grinding to a halt because of it.
> 
> It almost feels like TfL letting it live as an experiment or something - the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street.


It's one of the quietest weeks of the year for traffic anyway. And they haven't attacked the 'city' (financial districts) as such.

Despite the fellow on the news saying we're losing twelve million quid a day because of it I would have thought it's a bit of a draw to the West End if anything. And all the protestors need to eat and drink.


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2019)

Yeah, its Easter week, everyone is on holiday - much less traffic to disrupt, and having a free carnival going off every day at key points in London is probably great for the local economy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Its been on the radio four news twice this morning. Interviews with ER supporters.
> 
> Dr Gail Bradbrook was one. A founder of ER.
> 
> ...


Rather clumsily hostile interview I thought but pretty typical of Today. Constantly trying to sidetrack it onto specifics, which also seemed to be to try to get some sort of scary quote out of her, but not even that was very well done.

ETA: at one point the interviewer even said something like "well we don't want to talk about the issue here"


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2019)

I've been working in the City the last couple of days and you wouldn't know it was on.  Everything going on as usual, I think it really is just confined to a few areas and causing minimal disruption, if any.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2019)

maomao said:


> Despite the fellow on the news saying we're losing twelve million quid a day because of it I would have thought it's a bit of a draw to the West End if anything. And all the protestors need to eat and drink.



A completely meaningless number pulled from his arse.  Its like when the CBI are trying to make a point about workers stopping for a cup of tea costs the UK economy £1b a year or some such nonsense.  You know its meaningless as its always a round number.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2019)

At the Birmingham RTS/G8 thing back in 98/99 I remember arriving a day or so beforehand and the council had people out doing visitor surveys to see if the protest was bringing in revenue via accomodations, spending etc.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 18, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> A completely meaningless number pulled from his arse.  Its like when the CBI are trying to make a point about workers stopping for a cup of tea costs the UK economy £1b a year or some such nonsense.  You know its meaningless as its always a round number.


Also everyone I've ever met just says "good" when they hear these figures, even if they know they're rubbish. It's always seen as some miserable bunch of bastards trying to cancel Christmas so some rich fucker can buy another yacht. So not really a PR tactic I'd advise anyone to associate themselves with, particularly if they're trying to avoid looking like they care more about profits than people (or indeed the fate of the planet).


----------



## LDC (Apr 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> At the Birmingham RTS/G8 thing back in 98/99 I remember arriving a day or so beforehand and the council had people out doing visitor surveys to see if the protest was bringing in revenue via accomodations, spending etc.



Yeah, and I guess what should be clear is that whatever you think of ER on a strategic/tactical level with these actions and what they're saying, politically they're a pressure group seeking government reforms (albeit massive ones). Whether they manage to escape these confines is yet to be seen, but highly unlikely I'd say.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

salem said:


> Kinda agree but I'm amazed it's lasted this long and been so low key this long.
> 
> It just seems to be there, there isn't a huge amount of outrage and the city doesn't really seem to be grinding to a halt because of it.
> 
> It almost feels like TfL letting it live as an experiment or something - the pedestrianisation of Oxford Street.



Well they're not smashing anything up, they're making a point that most people agree with anyway and generally speaking people are getting to and from work ok without worrying about getting caught up in a riot.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Dr Gail Bradbrook was one. A founder of ER.



She's the posh fragrant lady! 







You could learn a lot from her Rutita1


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> .
> 
> Closing roads is imo good idea. Most people who work in London use public transport. As long as Tubes aren't targeted its not causing the average working Londoner to much problem. Buses in central London are painfully slow due to so much traffic so not a great loss losing some of them. Most people walk across Waterloo bridge anyway to the station as its quicker. Boris bikes are doing well.



As quite a coarse generalisation, buses in London are more used by poorer people, tubes are quite middle class. Hitting the tube will get more attention and cause moe whinging. Nobody will give a fuck about office cleaners stuck on a bus.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> ... tubes are quite middle class.


Oh do us a favour! 

Hitting the tube will get more attention because that's just how most people get to work in central London north of the river and people commute into mainline stations that are served by the tube rather than buses. If you live or work south of the river, chances are you'll use buses more regardless of what fucking class you are because the tube network's more limited.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 18, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> As quite a coarse generalisation, buses in London are more used by poorer people, tubes are quite middle class. Hitting the tube will get more attention and cause moe whinging. Nobody will give a fuck about office cleaners stuck on a bus.


Yes, quite a coarse generalisation indeed! When I catch the District line from Barking to Dagenham Heathway the clink of porcelain,  the rustle of Guardians, and the yawwing of the middle classes deafens...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 18, 2019)

The three activists charged in connection with the protest on the DLR train have been denied bail, having pleaded not guilty, and will appear in Crown Court on 16th May.

Climate change activists denied bail after DLR glue protest


----------



## andysays (Apr 18, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The three activists charged in connection with the protest on the DLR train have been denied bail, having pleaded not guilty, and will appear in Crown Court on 16th May.
> 
> Climate change activists denied bail after DLR glue protest


Don't they normally have to give a reason for denying bail? None is mentioned there or in the BBC story I've read.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> She's the posh fragrant lady!
> 
> You could learn a lot from her Rutita1



Oh look, the attention seeking cuntathon continues.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

After last night ptotestors back in Parliament square.   View attachment 168170


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> Don't they normally have to give a reason for denying bail? None is mentioned there or in the BBC story I've read.



Yes, but that can be as simple as they think they people will go and do it again is released.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes, but that can be as simple as they think they people will go and do it again is released.



I remember this from the miners strike, friends who were arrested and charged for offences while picketing  were denied bail. Because they’d be back there the following day.
Several received short prison sentences.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh look, the attention seeking cuntathon continues.


See what I mean?

I can't imagine Dr Bradbrook would ever be that rude and caterwauling. She's charming, intelligent, engaging ...


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> Don't they normally have to give a reason for denying bail? None is mentioned there or in the BBC story I've read.


Can't they just section them.

Who waits til all the politicans are on holiday to organise a protest. Who decides the best way to address climate change is to fuck up public transport and cause traffic jams.  All in a country thats done more to reduce carbon emissions than any other developed nation.

Probably start burning down trees next


----------



## kenny g (Apr 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I remember this from the miners strike, friends who were arrested and charged for offences while picketing  were denied bail. Because they’d be back there the following day.
> Several received short prison sentences.


Maximum sentence for this is two years. Malicious Damage Act 1861 

Annex 1 on this link has a lovely flowchart:

Bail | The Crown Prosecution Service 

*EXCEPTIONS TO THE GENERAL RIGHT TO BAIL*

a.	 There are substantial grounds for believing that the defendant would fail to surrender, commit an offence on bail or interfere with witnesses or otherwise obstruct the course of justice. *This exception cannot apply if defendant is not convicted AND no real prospect that he will be sentenced to custody in the proceedings *


b.	 There are substantial grounds for believing that the defendant would commit an offence on bail by engaging in conduct that would, or would be likely to – (a) cause physical or mental injury to an associated person; or (b) an associated person to fear physical or mental injury. _Associated person defined by Family Law Act -_

_relatives, spouse/civil-partner, cohabitants or those in an intimate relationship of a significant duration_. 


c.	 It appears to the court that the defendant was on bail on the date of offence. *This exception cannot apply if defendant is not convicted AND no real prospect that he will be sentenced to custody in the proceedings *


d.	 Having previously been released on bail in, or in connection with the proceedings the defendant has been arrested for failing to surrender or for breach of bail conditions. *This exception cannot apply if defendant is not convicted AND no real prospect that he will be sentenced to custody in the proceedings *



e.	 The defendant should be kept in custody for his own protection

f.	  The defendant is a serving prisoner

g.	 It is not practicable to obtain sufficient information for the purpose of determining bail for want of time since the institution of proceedings against the defendant.

h.	 Where a case is adjourned for inquiries or a report, it is impracticable to complete inquiries or make a report without keeping the defendant in custody


----------



## Idaho (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> Can't they just section them.
> 
> Who waits til all the politicans are on holiday to organise a protest. Who decides the best way to address climate change is to fuck up public transport and cause traffic jams.  All in a country thats done more to reduce carbon emissions than any other developed nation.
> 
> Probably start burning down trees next


You are right. This disruption to public order is unforgivable. 

Wtf...


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Talk of action at Heathrow over the weekend. Fucking over people's holidays at easter could change the tone of things and public support.


----------



## Santino (Apr 18, 2019)

Protests that enjoy widespread support don't put pressure on governments to do anything. You put pressure on the government by making life difficult.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> Can't they just section them.
> 
> Who waits til all the politicans are on holiday to organise a protest. Who decides the best way to address climate change is to fuck up public transport and cause traffic jams.  All in a country thats done more to reduce carbon emissions than any other developed nation.
> 
> Probably start burning down trees next





1 DLR train.  Also I'm not sure its possible to discern traffic jams caused by this from traffic jams caused by everything else in London.  If you're not a fan of traffic jams you probably shouldn't be driving on London.

Good effort though, will kick the Easter weekend off nicely.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm in folkestone for the easter weekend, what are the chances of this still being on by saturday?



Looks to me that they are holding on despite the police. Parliament square was cleared last night and they were back the same morning. Police don't have manpower to deal with mobile protest.

Plus I guess more will come on weekend. As not working. 

So yes come and have a look.


----------



## maomao (Apr 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Talk of action at Heathrow over the weekend. Fucking over people's holidays at easter could change the tone of things and public support.



City Airport's not letting anyone in the terminal unless they're on a plane. Seems pretty pointless. I'm sure they could shell out for a couple of tickets.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2019)

Given what nearly happened to the Stansted lot it'd be a very risky thing to do if you quite like your liberty.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So yes come and have a look.


Are you here now?


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2019)

Idaho said:


> You are right. This disruption to public order is unforgivable.
> 
> Wtf...


As come able as corcern about CO2 levels is, there also a finite amount of oxygen in the universe and these fuckers are robbing it.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

maomao said:


> I'm sure they could shell out for a couple of tickets.


Or just block the DLR patform and Hartman Road. Job done.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Are you here now?



I go around central London every day so was there earlier.

Now in my cafe in Grays Inn


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> Can't they just section them.
> 
> Who waits til all the politicans are on holiday to organise a protest. Who decides the best way to address climate change is to fuck up public transport and cause traffic jams.  All in a country thats done more to reduce carbon emissions than any other developed nation.
> 
> Probably start burning down trees next


How dare they demonstrate during the parliamentary recess


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Santino said:


> Protests that enjoy widespread support don't put pressure on governments to do anything. You put pressure on the government by making life difficult.


Hitting airports just puts pressure on the the government/police to clear them. Disrupting people's daily routines and causing traffic jams is one thing. Wrecking holiday plans, medical supply flights/connections etc, is something else.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> All in a country thats done more to reduce carbon emissions than any other developed nation.



Where did you get that from?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Given what nearly happened to the Stansted lot it'd be a very risky thing to do if you quite like your liberty.



The police love this shower because of their aggressive pro-snitching policy and their complete lack of basic security.


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Where did you get that from?


Repossessed cars can't produce emissions.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Where did you get that from?


Sorry looking it up properly we are second, behind the US, though Trump may start impacting on that


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> Sorry looking it up properly we are second, behind the US, though Trump may start impacting on that


Seeing the great effort made during the industrial revolution to get co2 into the atmosphere not sure this country's got a grand record to defend


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> Sorry looking it up properly we are second, behind the US, though Trump may start impacting on that



If you've got figures showing the US has done the most to limit climate change there's a chance they may be complete horseshit.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> The police love this shower because of their aggressive pro-snitching policy and their complete lack of basic security.



This isnt quite true or fair.

Easy to say this when you havent actually come down and had a look. There are lots of different opinions and more militant voices too. Sure there are a few daft spokespeople but that doesnt define thousands of people. There is also lots of public engagement and interest, from what Ive seen. People who might not otherwise be involved or hear about such stuff.

I am aware of the purer than pure criticisms to be made, but the fact that the liberal press and establishment are moaning about economic impact, effect on daily lives and undemocratic forceful action should show us the need for solidarity and support. Maybe not uncritically but definitely not just moaning and dismissing. Whats the point in left politics if it isnt engaging with whats happening _now _rather than the idealised past or future.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Maybe not uncritically but definitely not just moaning and dismissing. Whats the point in left politics if it isnt engaging with whats happening _now _



This.

Whilst I'm pretty critical of XR thus far, I'm in no way condemning or dismissing them.

Struggle changes people. 

I'm drawing from my own experience of seeing movements change, for better and for worse, as a result of struggle and am watching with an open mind to see what happens with XR.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2019)

Not talking to the police isn't about ideological purity it's about safety and solidarity.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not talking to the police isn't about ideological purity it's about safety and solidarity.



But it's perfectly understandable given the likely class background of the leadership that they haven't yet learned this.

They may learn it in due course though.

Till then it's certainly an issue.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> As come able as corcern about CO2 levels is, there also a finite amount of oxygen in the universe and these fuckers are robbing it.


So you are against any protest that disrupts public order and causes inconvenience to your comfortable life? 

Jeez. Urban has changed in 20 years. Back then you would have been hounded off the board.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> But it's perfectly understandable given the likely class background of the leadership that they haven't yet learned this.
> 
> They may learn it in due course though.
> 
> Till then it's certainly an issue.



Do you not think it's incumbent upon people to do the learning bit first and then the bit that involves putting others at risk?


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Do you not think it's incumbent upon people to do the learning bit first and then the bit that involves putting others at risk?



Yes, I do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2019)

gosub said:


> As come able as corcern about CO2 levels is, there also a finite amount of oxygen in the universe and these fuckers are robbing it.


Never mind the co2, worry about the nitrous oxide which is hundreds of times worse and attacks ozone

No one's been monitoring emissions of that


----------



## TopCat (Apr 18, 2019)

Shutting down Heathrow would be straightforward and would show massive balls.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Shutting down Heathrow would be straightforward and would show massive balls.


Yeh just get a load of drones


----------



## TopCat (Apr 18, 2019)

All run to the tunnel and chain up. End of


----------



## maomao (Apr 18, 2019)

TopCat said:


> All run to the tunnel and chain up. End of


Would only shut T2 and T3. But massive balls nonetheless.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 18, 2019)

chilango said:


> But it's perfectly understandable given the likely class background of the leadership that they haven't yet learned this.
> 
> They may learn it in due course though.
> 
> Till then it's certainly an issue.


There s plenty of people here (parliament Sq) who know not to talk to police or to talk to police without saying anything 
People planning bigger impact actions won't be sharing that with police or many outside a small group 

I didn't expect parliament sq to be here today and yet it's bigger than yesterday....loads of new people arrived to help....

One person up a tree and roped to someone locked on to a weight on the ground  has helped draw cameras here and create more of a road block


----------



## Southlondon (Apr 18, 2019)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> This does seem to be a congregation of those who do....
> But I'm not hating on them. Whatever clothes they show up in, they're committed and present and I've got respect for their tenacity.


I think the fact that it is front page news for a series of days, discussed on newsnight etc, and is logistically very well coordinated, it sure as hell beats marching a few hundred thousand people down the back streets of the west end on a Sunday morning to garner a few inches of column space in the guardian and the streets strewn with abandoned SWP placards and soggy lefty newspapers that no ones read.   Think the Iraq war, Brexit marches etc, The government can’t so easily ignore this until the main event is over, because there is no main event. And they’re on the back foot to a certain extend due to the apparent spontaneity of some of the disruption stunts, and the sheer duration of the protest. I think this lot have shown the tired out of date left that there is a new way to force an issue into the public debate rather than concentrating huge resources into one big headline event. Good for the hippies I say. 
I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London.  The challenge for socialists as I see it is to ensure that the moves to hit carbon targets are paid by those that consume the most, and not the working classes. That’s why I’m a socialist and not a green, but also why I give my unconditional but not uncritical support to the hippies in this initiative. Sour grapes from some on the left I feel


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> I think the fact that it is front page news for a series of days, discussed on newsnight etc, and is logistically very well coordinated, it sure as hell beats marching a few hundred thousand people down the back streets of the west end on a Sunday morning to garner a few inches of column space in the guardian and the streets strewn with abandoned SWP placards and soggy lefty newspapers that no ones read.   Think the Iraq war, Brexit marches etc, The government can’t so easily ignore this until the main event is over, because there is no main event. And they’re on the back foot to a certain extend due to the apparent spontaneity of some of the disruption stunts, and the sheer duration of the protest. I think this lot have shown the tired out of date left that there is a new way to force an issue into the public debate rather than concentrating huge resources into one big headline event. Good for the hippies I say.
> I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London.  The challenge for socialists as I see it is to ensure that the moves to hit carbon targets are paid by those that consume the most, and not the working classes. That’s why I’m a socialist and not a green, but also why I give my unconditional but not uncritical support to the hippies in this initiative. Sour grapes from some on the left I feel


You do know that term starts again on Tuesday for much of london, right? It's not like you're going to get a ton of people embarking on a week away with the kids now. I suppose flights coming back may be diverted, which could be a great pain, but the vast majority of families, wc or otherwise, will already have embarked and so won't have out bound flights cancelled


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 18, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> I think the fact that it is front page news for a series of days, discussed on newsnight etc, and is logistically very well coordinated, it sure as hell beats marching a few hundred thousand people down the back streets of the west end on a Sunday morning to garner a few inches of column space in the guardian and the streets strewn with abandoned SWP placards and soggy lefty newspapers that no ones read.   Think the Iraq war, Brexit marches etc, The government can’t so easily ignore this until the main event is over, because there is no main event. And they’re on the back foot to a certain extend due to the apparent spontaneity of some of the disruption stunts, and the sheer duration of the protest. I think this lot have shown the tired out of date left that there is a new way to force an issue into the public debate rather than concentrating huge resources into one big headline event. Good for the hippies I say.
> I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London.  The challenge for socialists as I see it is to ensure that the moves to hit carbon targets are paid by those that consume the most, and not the working classes. That’s why I’m a socialist and not a green, but also why I give my unconditional but not uncritical support to the hippies in this initiative. Sour grapes from some on the left I feel


I disagree with you on a couple of things but am aware (and hopeful) that this is only the early stage of their intended two week occupation. I don't think this has had nearly enough media coverage but the longer it goes on and the more direct actions taken the more it will be reported. Media coverage as it has been has been shit and I don't think XR has been very well represented. Coverage has been allowed to focus on the disruption and the public haven't been presented with the facts, the naming and shaming or predictions which might make them join the cause, write to councils and MPs, start online petitions etc during this protest.
Also, the Iraq march was ignored, likewise the Brexit march. Didn't change policy did they? Provoked a bit of hand wringing but made so difference. They don't care, they're all off on their holidays and aren't making any public statements about it are they? Call my jaded but I don't think it will have the impact on policy it needs to have, so that pisses me off...

I've got a couple more reservations but I don't want to sound negative. Fundamentally I think they're doing a good thing and they're doing it well. I really hope that this will lead to more actions and more public engagement.


----------



## Ponyutd (Apr 18, 2019)

Took this picture of this girl wednesday.
 





Saw her tonight on bbc news.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Apr 18, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London.


"Working class". So taxi drivers and people who use busses are not "working class".
Its just lazy and sloppy analysis of who makes up the working population of the UK. 
"Working class good middle class bad" when there is no definition of it. 
And here is a rocket up your arse, when it comes to climate change, we are the rich, we are the problem. 





"The working class" of the UK, US, Germany, Australia, Japan and other developed world countries are the rich in this context. The people in the bottom 20% deciles of incomes will not be missing flights because of protests, they will not have to sit on a bus for a few extra hours per week because some slightly richer hippy  is on a bridge. They live on dollars a day equivalent. A climate caused drought is not a hose pipe ban, its a crop failure for people who cannot afford to supplement their crops with imported food by cash or other means. Its people on the fertile river deltas with their low tidal ranges that will make them far more vulnerable to sea level rise than people in regions like they UK where our coastal defences are better adapted. Its people living in the pressure cooker city slums of low income states that will face the large influx of refugees from natural disasters driven by climate change into urban spaces with no facilities to take them. 

People at airports are not the victims of climate change protests, they are the cause of climate change. 
People who live in a society emitting 6 tonnes of CO2 per person per year are not the oppressed masses, they are those who are diverting their pollution and its enormous consequences to the billions who are not causing this problem.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 18, 2019)

((((((London))))))


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

ferrelhadley said:


> "Working class". So taxi drivers and people who use busses are not "working class".
> Its just lazy and sloppy analysis of who makes up the working population of the UK.
> "Working class good middle class bad" when there is no definition of it.
> And here is a rocket up your arse, when it comes to climate change, we are the rich, we are the problem.
> ...



According to admittedly the first figures I could find, to be in the top 40% or so richest people requires assets of at least $10,000, and the top 8 or 9% assets of at least $100,000.  There are many people in the UK who do not meet that threshold,and lots of them get the bus to work.

Not meant as a criticism of XR btw, just the idea that because the UK is a rich country that we are all the problem.  The millions of people in the UK on benefits, poverty wages or pension  credit are not responsible for climate change, the rich, and to a lesser degree the more affluent middle clsses are, mostly because they benefit from, and as such support, the capitalist system which is creating the climate disaster.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> According to admittedly the first figures I could find, to be in the top 40% or so richest people requires assets of at least $10,000, and the top 8 or 9% assets of at least $100,000.  There are many people in the UK who do not meet that threshold,and lots of them get the bus to work.
> 
> Not meant as a criticism of XR btw, just the idea that because the UK is a rich country that we are all the problem.  The millions of people in the UK on benefits, poverty wages or pension  credit are not responsible for climate change, the rich, and to a lesser degree the more affluent middle clsses are, mostly because they benefit from, and as such support, the capitalist system which is creating the climate disaster.


Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.


----------



## alex_ (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> According to admittedly the first figures I could find, to be in the top 40% or so richest people requires assets of at least $10,000, and the top 8 or 9% assets of at least $100,000.  There are many people in the UK who do not meet that threshold,and lots of them get the bus to work.
> 
> Not meant as a criticism of XR btw, just the idea that because the UK is a rich country that we are all the problem.  The millions of people in the UK on benefits, poverty wages or pension  credit are not responsible for climate change, the rich, and to a lesser degree the more affluent middle clsses are, mostly because they benefit from, and as such support, the capitalist system which is creating the climate disaster.



To be in the top 10% by income you need to earn between 20 and 50 usd per day or more.

World Population by Income


----------



## kenny g (Apr 18, 2019)

Riklet said:


> This isnt quite true or fair.
> 
> Easy to say this when you havent actually come down and had a look. There are lots of different opinions and more militant voices too. Sure there are a few daft spokespeople but that doesnt define thousands of people. There is also lots of public engagement and interest, from what Ive seen. People who might not otherwise be involved or hear about such stuff.
> 
> I am aware of the purer than pure criticisms to be made, but the fact that the liberal press and establishment are moaning about economic impact, effect on daily lives and undemocratic forceful action should show us the need for solidarity and support. Maybe not uncritically but definitely not just moaning and dismissing. Whats the point in left politics if it isnt engaging with whats happening _now _rather than the idealised past or future.



Too true re the public engagement. Was at Oxford circus yesterday and the person standing in front of me seemingly engrossed in the words of a speaker was dragged off by her two mates who had just finished their shopping. At the end of the day you can be as purist as you like but as we now know RTS had spycops in its ranks I am not sure to what purpose it plays rather than division.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Southlondon said:


> I do feel they’ve shown a degree of political nativity in targeting airports during the holiday season. A lot of working class families will be hit and family holidays ruined. That’s different to taxi drivers and commuters suffering a few diversions in their journeys around London.



I wonder how long the conversations between the doctors, lawyers, teachers, vicars, and academics of XR were, regarding not wanting to inconvenience the working class.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2019)

Ponyutd said:


> Took this picture of this girl wednesday.
> View attachment 168210
> 
> 
> ...



Now go take a picture of Boris Johnson.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all..



Are you new here?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 18, 2019)

Police made s lot of arrests in parliament square but each barricade has people locked or glued on

Plus amazing cycle and samba support


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> There s plenty of people here (parliament Sq) who know not to talk to police or to talk to police without saying anything
> People planning bigger impact actions won't be sharing that with police or many outside a small group
> 
> I didn't expect parliament sq to be here today and yet it's bigger than yesterday....loads of new people arrived to help....
> ...



I dropped some food off at Waterloo and saw helicopter that looked like it was over Parliament square about 7pm.

Hope its ok in Parliament Sq.

Waterloo Bridge was chilled out with entertainment this evening.

Will do the rounds tomorrow putting some food donations.Taking photos. I want to see Marble Arch. Which isn't on my circuit workdays. 

RU at Parliament Square?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.



I said it wasn't a criticism of XR, it was a response to the comment that "we" as in all of us in the UK are the problem.  There are a substantial number of people in the UK, and elsewhere in the West, living a hand to mouth existence who are not responsible for this crisis.  If I did have a criticism of XR, it would be that there is no clear attempt to link climate change to capitalism and the horrendous exploitation of people and planet it depends on, or to engage with those people who are the victims of it, who might well be responsive to a movement that explicitly targetted the rich as both the instigators of climate disaster and the poverty and shit lives so many people are forced to endure, even in the midst of great affluence.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.



Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian.  I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian.  I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.



Funny you should mention that.

I've heard a few people watching the news and conflating XR and Vegans and talking of these protests as an continuation or extension of vegan proselyting.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well okay but I don't see how that idea is connected to this thread at all. I've seen nothing in XR that is preaching about how people need to stop doing X and do Y - it's all very clear that there's a systemic problem which can't be dealt with by individual action (much is explicitly anti-capitalist). Participants might be doing things like going veggie or whatever on an individual basis but it's not a message of the movement.



As I've been around the various protests I have seen "preaching". Handmade posters advocating Veganism, Votes for Animals for example. Lot of stuff about being Vegan. 

So I think there is ambivalent position , in practise, of whether this is individual or systemic. 

There also appears to be generational difference. With the older seeing it as systemic and younger foregrounding individual choices.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> As I've been around the various protests I have seen "preaching". Handmade posters advocating Veganism, Votes for Animals for example. Lot of stuff about being Vegan.
> 
> So I think there is ambivalent position , in practise, of whether this is individual or systemic.
> 
> There also appears to be generational difference. With the older seeing it as systemic and younger foregrounding individual choices.


Votes for animals?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian.  I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.



You've met an XR organiser? That's a very grand title. What does it actually mean?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Votes for animals?



Yes she had T Shirt saying votes for animals. As posted by others "speciesism" is something I come across at the protests.

This wasn't the case in first few days.

As a cat owner I'm not keen on cats getting the vote. They are only interested in themselves. Self Centred lot are felines.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> You've met an XR organiser? That's a very grand title. What does it actually mean?



Someone who is involved in organising XR events and protests I guess.  That's just how they were introduced to me.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Yes she had T Shirt saying votes for animals. As posted by others "speciesism" is something I come across at the protests.
> 
> This wasn't the case in first few days.
> 
> As a cat owner I'm not keen on cats getting the vote. They are only interested in themselves. Self Centred lot are felines.


Dogs OK, though?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Yes she had T Shirt saying votes for animals. As posted by others "speciesism" is something I come across at the protests.
> 
> This wasn't the case in first few days.
> 
> As a cat owner I'm not keen on cats getting the vote. They are only interested in themselves. Self Centred lot are felines.



Yeah but rabbits and ants would vote for full communism and there's fucking loads of them.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Dogs OK, though?



Dogs are ok. They would vote same way as there human owners. Dogs being dogs.


----------



## LDC (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I said it wasn't a criticism of XR, it was a response to the comment that "we" as in all of us in the UK are the problem.  There are a substantial number of people in the UK, and elsewhere in the West, living a hand to mouth existence who are not responsible for this crisis.  If I did have a criticism of XR, it would be that there is no clear attempt to link climate change to capitalism and the horrendous exploitation of people and planet it depends on, or to engage with those people who are the victims of it, who might well be responsive to a movement that explicitly targetted the rich as both the instigators of climate disaster and the poverty and shit lives so many people are forced to endure, even in the midst of great affluence.



An interview I saw a bit ago with a XR spokesperson was very clear that this was a 'non-political' problem that crossed left wing/right wing boundaries. Sure that's not everyone's position but


----------



## LDC (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian.  I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.



Anyone that starts talking about 'speciesim' automatically gets added to my 'you've got shit politics and I ignore everything else you say' list.

(E2A: drunk posting)


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I dropped some food off at Waterloo and saw helicopter that looked like it was over Parliament square about 7pm.
> 
> Hope its ok in Parliament Sq.
> 
> ...


Yes ...doing well being support for people locked on.   All corners still holding


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> An interview I saw a bit ago with a XR spokesperson was very clear that this was a 'non-political' problem that crossed left wing/right wing boundaries. Sure that's not everyone's position but



The people behind it seem depressingly naive.  I watched this video on non violence from one of the founders earlier, and its relentlessly dreadful, like listening to some drunk hippy's plans to bring down the government based on a load of top of their head nonsense at the end of an all night party.

Edit: Not that this is any reflection on those out on the streets taking action.


----------



## LDC (Apr 18, 2019)

I think the mistake here is confusing revolutionary left wing politics with direct action campaigns. 

In the case of climate change I think a pretty reasonable argument can be made that it's a topic that needs urgent addressing outside that dynamic, although it is a dangerous road to go down....


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Dogs are ok. They would vote same way as there human owners. Dogs being dogs.


Not so sure, dogs aren't so stupid


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

ferrelhadley said:


> "Working class". So taxi drivers and people who use busses are not "working class".
> Its just lazy and sloppy analysis of who makes up the working population of the UK.
> "Working class good middle class bad" when there is no definition of it.
> And here is a rocket up your arse, when it comes to climate change, we are the rich, we are the problem.
> ...



You are misreading Southlondon imo. He is not saying that taxi drivers aren't working class. He is saying that blocking airports now may affect ordinary working class off on a cheap package holiday. Its not going to affect the wealthy.

If one is going to get support for a change to zero carbon economy telling ordinary working people, who are struggling to pay the bills and have a life ,that they are the problem isn't going to get much support.

Its been asked here why not many Londoners are involved. In my area of London cuts to youth services, knife crime, etc are the main issues at the moment. I have been part of a group of residents trying to save an adventure playground.  To tell the people in my local community , one of the most deprived in London, that they are part of the problem and wealthy in comparison to rest of world isn't going to go down well.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think the mistake here is confusing revolutionary left wing politics with direct action campaigns.
> 
> In the case of climate change I think a pretty reasonable argument can be made that it's a topic that needs urgent addressing outside that dynamic, although it is a dangerous road to go down....



I don't  really see how it can be addressed outside of that though.  It's not like legalising pot or saving a local beauty spot or other single issue campaigns, capitalism is causing climate change, and I can't really imagine a form of capitalism that could prevent that.  I'd quite like to see Extinction Rebellion tell the truth about that, as loudly as possible.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2019)

I’ve never seen rabbits or ants join a picket.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Dogs are ok. They would vote same way as there human owners. Dogs being dogs.


My dog will vote for whoever has the most Wotsits.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

Just had the Police interviewed on Radio 4 news.

It appears the peaceful nature of the protest is a real hindrance for the cops. They arent like proper rioters one can get stuck into. So in his view government should look into new legislation to increase police powers to deal with this new kind of peaceful protest. 

IMO Police already have powers. They are using anti terror legislation. If they really wanted to they could go all out and arrest hundreds of people on Waterloo Bridge for example. Its that they aren't using them. 

They have powers to do all this.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> I’ve never seen rabbits or ants join a picket.



To be fair I'm basing my assessment of rabbit politics on the nice rabbits in Watership Down, but there were some pretty horrible rabbits as well.  And thinking again ants would probably vote for the Queen so maybe votes for animals isn't such a great idea.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 18, 2019)

Also the cop on radio four was blaming protestors for adversely affecting the "Well Being" of the police force. 

As these poor Cops had to earn lucrative overtime policing these protestors over Bank Holiday weekend. 

Instead of being with their families. 

I blame Extinction Rebellion.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2019)

Don’t trust hippies!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Also the cop on radio four was blaming protestors for adversely affecting the "Well Being" of the police force.



Fucking hell.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> The people behind it seem depressingly naive.  I watched this video on non violence from one of the founders earlier, and its relentlessly dreadful, like listening to some drunk hippy's plans to bring down the government based on a load of top of their head nonsense at the end of an all night party.
> 
> Edit: Not that this is any reflection on those out on the streets taking action.


WTF i want the world to end now. That's the worst video i've ever seen. He actually says that _i/we need to be an intermediary power or i/we will destroy society and i have the power to do so.
_
That was an astonishingly authoritarian talk.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> WTF i want the world to end now. That's the worst video i've ever seen. He actually says that _i/we need to be an intermediary power or i/we will destroy society and i have the power to do so.
> _
> That was an astonishingly authoritarian talk.



It is pretty spectacularly awful, and on so many different levels.  

Incidentally the study he uses to prove non violence as the most effective form of instigating change can be found here, and isn't really talking about non violence in the NVDA sense, but civil resistance vs guerilla or armed uprising.  Given they dont seem to have published the dataset they based this on (or maybe they do in their book but I couldnt find it), its difficult to make an assessment of how non violent the non violent movements actually were, what other factors were at play and what they mean by success.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2019)

smokedout said:


> It is pretty spectacularly awful, and on so many different levels.
> 
> Incidentally the study he uses to prove non violence as the most effective form of instigating change can be found here, and isn't really talking about non violence in the NVDA sense, but civil resistance vs guerilla or armed uprising.  Given they dont seem to have published the dataset they based this on (or maybe they do in their book but I couldnt find it), its difficult to make an assessment of how non violent the non violent movements actually were, what other factors were at play and what they mean by success.


Imagine all that energy of the kids stuff over recent weeks directed into this cunt negotiating a post-reichstag state of emergency with the state. That's his actual plan. I had no fucking idea.

Well, there's always potential to overflow the boundaries but fucking hell...


----------



## nogojones (Apr 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Never mind the co2, worry about the nitrous oxide which is hundreds of times worse and attacks ozone
> 
> No one's been monitoring emissions of that


Every balloon kills a baby penguin


----------



## toblerone3 (Apr 19, 2019)

Fuck the people who "need" to use aeroplanes to get away for an Easter break.   Those people need to take a look at themselves, the cunts.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 19, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Fuck the people who "need" to use aeroplanes to get away for an Easter break.   Those people need to take a look at themselves, the cunts.



Yeah fuck all those cunts flying home to visit family over Easter.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2019)

smokedout said:


> The people behind it seem depressingly naive.  I watched this video on non violence from one of the founders earlier, and its relentlessly dreadful, like listening to some drunk hippy's plans to bring down the government based on a load of top of their head nonsense at the end of an all night party.
> 
> Edit: Not that this is any reflection on those out on the streets taking action.



Had a look at this.

On its being authoritarian. Must say its ambivalent on "participatory democracy". Which I thought was central. But not from what he says.

He says a weakness of previous movements is competing groups and who decides.

( I would suggest that is more democratic than what he is proposing. Not necessarily a weakness)

So a "democratic culture" is needed. Consisting of grass roots, leaders and participatory democracy.

To get to that stage in reality "key activists" need to be found to be trained up ( by him I assume) as leaders. Then what he calls some "semblance of participation" is required.

So it does sound top down in practise. If in a nice way.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Had a look at this.
> 
> On its being authoritarian. Must say its ambivalent on "participatory democracy". Which I thought was central. But not from what he says.
> 
> ...


It could become more grassroots if people got involved and changed the direction 

I feel ambivalent about a lot of XR strategy but I can see that the organisation that's built over recent months has been the key to keeping the action going since Sunday


----------



## kenny g (Apr 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Just had the Police interviewed on Radio 4 news.
> 
> It appears the peaceful nature of the protest is a real hindrance for the cops. They arent like proper rioters one can get stuck into. So in his view government should look into new legislation to increase police powers to deal with this new kind of peaceful protest.
> 
> ...



Wasn't aware of anti-terror legislation being used. In these circumstances, the Public Order Act 1986 section 14 powers that are being mentioned on Waterloo Bridge are pretty weak, and in the case of a peaceful protest I can see some concerns may exist about making charges stick/ crossing the public interest threshold for CPS prosecutors:

Public Order Act 1986

At the end of the day these are level 3 fineable offences which are chicken shit.

There are also the various problems about having to justify an arrest under Code G of PACE. Para 2.9 (v) expressly mentions causing an *unlawful* obstruction of  the highway as a grounds for arrest but emphasises the advantage of warning having been provided prior to arrest. https://assets.publishing.service.g...achment_data/file/117583/pace-code-g-2012.pdf

It is once there is any lack of "peace" that a whole raft of excessive police powers and offences can kick in. IMHO The successful use of peaceful disruption over the last few days remains impressive. I just wonder to what extent  in the past police tactics were to use special demonstration squad members to assist with creating non-peaceful protests so the batons could start to swing as is being demanded by most of the press.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

nogojones said:


> Every balloon kills a baby penguin


Increased nitrous oxide emissions from Arctic peatlands after permafrost thaw


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

The Chair of the Met Police Federation on BBC TV news just now, explaining how difficult it is for their members to deal with the situation, because the protesters are so peaceful & friendly. 

Although he did say they are gearing up for proper removal of protesters today to clear the roads, but wouldn't go into any details.

Meanwhile a handful of protesters have turned-up at Heathrow, holding a peaceful protest on a pavement, with a ring of coppers around them, more coppers than protesters.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 19, 2019)

smokedout said:


> The people behind it seem depressingly naive.  I watched this video on non violence from one of the founders earlier, and its relentlessly dreadful, like listening to some drunk hippy's plans to bring down the government based on a load of top of their head nonsense at the end of an all night party.
> 
> Edit: Not that this is any reflection on those out on the streets taking action.



He thinks violent protest leads inexorably to fascism because no women get involved in violent protests. And because young men are all fascists, I guess.

Wanker.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

> Actress Emma Thompson joined the protests in London after taking a 5,400-mile flight from Los Angeles in the US.
> 
> She said: "I absolutely wanted to be arrested on my 60th birthday but I didn't quite manage that.
> 
> ...



Missing the point by 5,400 country air-miles.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Missing the point by 5,400 country air-miles.



How did she fail to get arrested? It's piss easy, just go and twat a pig and off you go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How did she fail to get arrested? It's piss easy, just go and twat a pig and off you go.


Apat


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How did she fail to get arrested? It's piss easy, just go and twat a pig and off you go.


Ime you don't even need to do that


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 19, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How did she fail to get arrested? It's piss easy, just go and twat a pig and off you go.


It’s a bit more nuanced than that I think. I believe the idea is to get arrested but not charged, or at least not charged with anything serious.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It’s a bit more nuanced than that I think. I believe the idea is to get arrested but not charged, or at least not charged with anything serious.



Fucking liberals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It’s a bit more nuanced than that I think. I believe the idea is to get arrested but not charged, or at least not charged with anything serious.


make a snorting noise like a cop pig and see what happens


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> make a snorting noise like a cop pig and see what happens


Barking at their dogs has always worked for me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Barking at their dogs has always worked for me.


yeh but you also got down on all fours and then sniffed the dogs' arseholes before cocking your leg and pissing on a cop van


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Oh and the only XR organiser Ive met immediately launched into a tirade and called me a speciesist and murderer within seconds of meeting me and finding out I wasn't vegan, but just vegetarian.  I'm not suggesting that is typical at all, but it didn't really endear me to the movement.



I don't think the thing would be holding together if they had very many of that sort of person.


----------



## andysays (Apr 19, 2019)

​


cupid_stunt said:


> Missing the point by 5,400 country air-miles.


What a silly stunt. Maybe she should just have stayed in Los Angeles and got arrested there, rather than fly all that way and fail to get arrested.

I'm sure the LAPD would have obliged if she'd asked nicely...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> I don't think the thing would be holding together if they had very many of that sort of person.


or maybe not many people talk to them


----------



## xenon (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Chair of the Met Police Federation on BBC TV news just now, explaining how difficult it is for their members to deal with the situation, because the protesters are so peaceful & friendly.
> 
> Although he did say they are gearing up for proper removal of protesters today to clear the roads, but wouldn't go into any details.
> 
> Meanwhile a handful of protesters have turned-up at Heathrow, holding a peaceful protest on a pavement, with a ring of coppers around them, more coppers than protesters.



That'll be great if after all the talk about disrupting heathrow, they just get a few banners there and chat to people whilst dozens of riot cops stand around looking awkward.

I think causing flights to be cancelled would be a massive tactical blunder.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2019)

xenon said:


> That'll be great if after all the talk about disrupting heathrow, they just get a few banners there and chat to people whilst dozens of riot cops stand around looking awkward.
> 
> I think causing flights to be cancelled would be a massive tactical blunder.


That's all that's happening.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2019)

Might have a look later


----------



## Flavour (Apr 19, 2019)

Ultimately I think although XR is a great protest, the forces behind it (the way it came out of nowhere and is this well-oiled machine, much like the PR campaign behind Greta Thunberg) mean it can never and will never oppose capitalism. I've been reading a blog which often veers a little too close to "deep ecology" type hardcore anti-human green stuff for my liking, but I think there's something valid in its criticism of Greta Thunberg (or rather, her public image and how it used, more so than the person herself) which one can apply to XR too. 



> the key pivotal moment for the exploitation of Thunberg (and the very purpose of her global construct) came at the moment she spoke her much-publicized words “Our house is on fire. I’m here to say, our house is on fire.” These words  echoed the outlined text in the strategy paper entitled “Leading the Public Into Emergency Mode” almost verbatim. The strategy authored by the Climate Mobilization Project, outlines a “wartime-style mobilization, akin to the American home front effort during World War II”



From The Wrong Kind of Green

From the same link, regarding Greenpeace, who physically accompanied Greta to the Davos Forum (urgh)



> One not familiar with the inner workings and functions of the non-profit industrial complex might wonder why the executive director of Greenpeace International be invited to attend a discussion regarding the implementation of “payments for ecosystem services” (PES), global in scale. That is, monetary value being assigned to all nature, under the guise of environmental protection. That is, the financialization and privatization of all nature – on the entire Earth.



I wonder what sort of presence these establishment-friendly NGOs have within XR, directly / indirectly? While the intentions and the tactics of the people on the ground may be good... I feel it is all too likely their energy will be and is already being misdirected.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Ultimately I think although XR is a great protest, the forces behind it (the way it came out of nowhere and is this well-oiled machine, much like the PR campaign behind Greta Thunberg) mean it can never and will never oppose capitalism. I've been reading a blog which often veers a little too close to "deep ecology" type hardcore anti-human green stuff for my liking, but I think there's something valid in its criticism of Greta Thunberg (or rather, her public image and how it used, more so than the person herself) which one can apply to XR too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the road to hell, of course, paved with good intentions


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Port Report: Ahead of Earth Day, European shippers join extinction rebellion
everyone's getting on board


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2019)

Police move in on climate protesters

Emma Thompson has flown in from Los Angelas to address activists in Oxford St from a pink boat


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

gosub said:


> Police move in on climate protesters
> 
> Emma Thompson has flown in from Los Angelas to address activists in Oxford St from a pink boat


i don't know what the activists have done to deserve such awful treatment


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Missing the point by 5,400 country air-miles.


Did she take a private jet then? If not her inclusion, rather than leaving an empty seat on a scheduled service, will have reduced the emissions per head of that flight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Did she take a private jet then? If not her inclusion, rather than leaving an empty seat on a scheduled service, will have reduced the emisions per head of that flight.


yeh but she'll be unleashing a great emission of hot air in central london


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Did she take a private jet then? If not her inclusion, rather than leaving an empty seat on a scheduled service, will have reduced the emissions per head of that flight.


The point is that she could have walked out of her house and did something there instead of celebing this up. You know, in line with the ethos of this thing.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know what the activists have done to deserve such awful treatment


I think think it's become a political  thing since  the referendum,  you are nothing unless you have a celebraty  making a twat of themselves on a boat


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

gosub said:


> I think think it's become a political  thing since  the referendum,  you are nothing unless you have a celebraty  making a twat of themselves on a boat


they'd have to have someone to introduce her, and i'm sure you've noticed no one has only one job any more - it would be 'she needs no introduction but it gives me great pleasure to introduce dame emma thompson the actress, screenwriter, activist, author, and comedienne'.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Chair of the Met Police Federation on BBC TV news just now, explaining how difficult it is for their members to deal with the situation, because the protesters are so peaceful & friendly.



Oh, here's his actual words...



> Ken Marsh, chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation, said: "This is very, very difficult for us because my colleagues have never come across the situation that they are faced with at the moment.
> 
> "They are dealing with very, very passive people, probably quite nice people, who don't want confrontation whatsoever with the police or anyone else but are breaking the law."
> 
> Police move in on climate protesters


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

none of the other speakers needed police protection...


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they'd have to have someone to introduce her, and i'm sure you've noticed no one has only one job any more - it would be 'she needs no introduction but it gives me great pleasure to introduce dame emma thompson the actress, screenwriter, activist, author, and comedienne'.


I'd have gone with actress luvie and daughter of the magic Roundabout bloke


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Did she take a private jet then? If not her inclusion, rather than leaving an empty seat on a scheduled service, will have reduced the emissions per head of that flight.



My comment was somewhat flippant.

But, at the end of the day, if you want to be taken serious as climate change protester, it's not a good look to fly thousands of miles to protest.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2019)

Plod surrounding Oxford Circus now.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> My comment was somewhat flippant.
> 
> But, at the end of the day, if you want to be taken serious as climate change protester, it's not a good look to fly thousands of miles to protest.


At least she's not tied up with Malaysian embezzlement


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> The point is that she could have walked out of her house and did something there instead of celebing this up. You know, in line with the ethos of this thing.


What? Deprive all the lawyers and doctors of a lovey, daaaarling?


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Plod surrounding Oxford Circus now.



Kettle time?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Kettle time?


it's traditional after all


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Plod surrounding Oxford Circus now.


only to be expected


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Kettle time?



Tea, white, no sugar, thanks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Tea, white, no sugar, thanks.


you'll urn your tea


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Kettle time?


Reverse kettle - normally the people inside it want to leave. (What's the reverse of a kettle? An ice bucket? A thermos?)

 

Plod all around the centre of Oxford Circus and in fact not letting anyone go north on the pavement.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Reverse kettle - normally the people inside it want to leave. (What's the reverse of a kettle? An ice bucket?)



Yeah, I was just discussing with a mate that it looked like a reverse kettle would be the way they'd go.
The term "lytic vacuole" occurred to me, but I can't see it catching on.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

They've blocked off regent street up to the junction with Margaret street and there are a load of vans and masses of coppers standing around and occasionally marching about. It looks like they are trying to take people out, but it's not going very quickly. (They are in fact now causing way more traffic disruption than the protest as they've shut side streets too.)

ETA: up to cavendish place now actually. Whoops. I'm in the middle.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

> Dame Emma Thompson, who flew to the protest from LA, left the scene as police pushed bystanders away from the blockade.



Emma, that's not the way to get arrested. 



> She told activists she was sorry she had to go.



But, needed to caught her flight back to LA. 

Police move in to remove protesters at Oxford Circus carrying activists away | Metro News


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They've blocked off regent street up to the junction with Margaret street and there are a load of vans and masses of coppers standing around and occasionally marching about. It looks like they are trying to take people out, but it's not going very quickly. (They are in fact now causing way more traffic disruption than the protest as they've shut side streets too.)



Apparently they've started picking off people at Waterloo Bridge, a couple of dozen so far, several hundred more to go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Reverse kettle - normally the people inside it want to leave. (What's the reverse of a kettle? An ice bucket? A thermos?)


elttek


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2019)

Flavour That Cory Morningstar is 100% raving loon m8. Her twitter machine follows and her site's 'Recommended' tab is a who's who of crankery, many of whom have featured on the Beeley thread. There's also a whole section for Syria conspiraloonery and cheerleading for that somewhat unlikely friend of the earth Bashar al Assad. At least Thunberg hasn't quoted Hitler or posted links to holocaust denier Anthony Lawson's hot take on 9/11.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

copliker said:


> Flavour That Cory Morningstar is 100% raving loon m8. Her twitter machine follows and her site's 'Recommended' tab is a who's who of crankery, many of whom have featured on the Beeley thread. There's also a whole section for Syria conspiraloonery and cheerleading for that somewhat unlikely friend of the earth Bashar al Assad. At least Thunberg hasn't quoted Hitler or posted links to holocaust denier Anthony Lawson's hot take on 9/11.


ime people named cory are twats, and when coupled with morningstar there'd be no doubt in my mind you'd be dealing with a 'loon


----------



## Flavour (Apr 19, 2019)

copliker said:


> Flavour That Cory Morningstar is 100% raving loon m8. Her twitter machine follows and her site's 'Recommended' tab is a who's who of crankery, many of whom have featured on the Beeley thread. There's also a whole section for Syria conspiraloonery and cheerleading for that somewhat unlikely friend of the earth Bashar al Assad. At least Thunberg hasn't quoted Hitler or posted links to holocaust denier Anthony Lawson's hot take on 9/11.



Ah. Hadn't seen that. Shit.


----------



## tim (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Kettle time?



Come and have tea with the Quakers under Marble Arch at 5.00. Preceded by half an hour of silent worship.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

tim said:


> Come and have tea with the Quakers at Marble Arch at 5.00. Preceded by half an hour of silent worship.


what biscuits and cakes are you serving?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> ime people named cory are twats, and when coupled with morningstar there'd be no doubt in my mind you'd be dealing with a 'loon


Corey Anderson has a name as a good bloke around taunton.


----------



## tim (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> what biscuits and cakes are you serving?



I'm turning up and taking potlatch. Generally, we're good at teas, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

tim said:


> I'm turning up and taking potlatch. Generally, we're good at teas, though.


and i hope the same can be said of your biscuits and cakes


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Corey Anderson has a name as a good bloke around taunton.


i've only met the north london coreys


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

tim said:


> I'm turning up and taking potlatch. Generally, we're good at teas, though.


----------



## Argonia (Apr 19, 2019)

Potlatch was the name of the bulletin of the Lettrist International


----------



## pesh (Apr 19, 2019)

the doughnut of Babylon


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

pesh said:


> the doughnut of Babylon


should set the boat alight


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Argonia said:


> Potlatch was the name of the bulletin of the Lettrist International


mark 'pot' latch was a dealer i knew in my youth


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2019)

pesh said:


> the doughnut of Babylon



Can you imagine how confusing it will be if everyone comes in hi-vis next time?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Can you imagine how confusing it will be if everyone comes in hi-vis next time?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> should set the boat alight



With people still locked-on to it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> With people still locked-on to it?


no, give them time to get clear

but you'd see the cops scuttle off


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> ime people named cory are twats, and when coupled with morningstar there'd be no doubt in my mind you'd be dealing with a 'loon


Cory Doctorow is pretty sound.


----------



## rekil (Apr 19, 2019)

My best friend when I was 5ish was a Corey. #NotAllCoreys Until his family moved. Wanker.

This is on in Dubbelin.

'This is an emergency': Extinction Rebellion comes to Dublin as sit-down protest blocks O'Connell Street



> Also attending the protest today was Ciarán Cuffe, a Green Party councillor who is now running in the European elections.


This chancer can get fucked for a start.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Cory Doctorow is pretty sound.


Another non-north london Cory, perhaps outside the m25 they're made of better stuff


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Another non-north london Cory, perhaps outside the m25 they're made of better stuff


His office used to be in north London - it wouldn't surprise me if he also lived there. Admittedly he is Canadian and now lives in San Francisco.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2019)

Have the police thought this through? They have become the roadblock. If they vacate then ER move back in?


----------



## xenon (Apr 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> ime people named cory are twats, and when coupled with morningstar there'd be no doubt in my mind you'd be dealing with a 'loon



not Cory Doctoro though.


----------



## xenon (Apr 19, 2019)

Corey Taylor? Alright, you can have that one.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2019)

They can capture the pink boat but other than that are just exacerbating the impact.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2019)

copliker said:


> Flavour That Cory Morningstar is 100% raving loon m8. Her twitter machine follows and her site's 'Recommended' tab is a who's who of crankery, many of whom have featured on the Beeley thread. There's also a whole section for Syria conspiraloonery and cheerleading for that somewhat unlikely friend of the earth Bashar al Assad. At least Thunberg hasn't quoted Hitler or posted links to holocaust denier Anthony Lawson's hot take on 9/11.


Cheers for the info.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> They can capture the pink boat but other than that are just exacerbating the impact.


As I wandered out of the cordoned-off area there were already people starting an impromptu roadblock just outside it.

Not like central London is starved of blockable junctions.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2019)

pesh said:


> the doughnut of Babylon



Looks like these lot are missing a few pages from their copy of 'kettling for dummies'.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Looks like these lot are missing a few pages from their copy of 'kettling for dummies'.



Yeah, I'm still undecided as to the purpose of the inner ring.
Is it to stop them all escaping on the boat?


----------



## Santino (Apr 19, 2019)

It's the top of a teapot with the lid missing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, I'm still undecided as to the purpose of the inner ring.
> Is it to stop them all escaping on the boat?



It's the big gaps in the outer ring I'm confused about.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, I'm still undecided as to the purpose of the inner ring.
> Is it to stop them all escaping on the boat?



I think it's to give them room to 'unlock' those that are 'locked-on' to the boat, with the intention of moving the boat without people being dragged along with it.

An attempt to remove a focal point for protesters.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Looks like these lot are missing a few pages from their copy of 'kettling for dummies'.



Looks like a dress rehearsal for the opening ceremony of the 2020 Metropolitan Protest games.

Events will include..... ? 

1. Water cannon target practice.

2. Pyramid Kettling.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's the big gaps in the outer ring I'm confused about.



They're handy for getting food and supplies in, and they've got the idea in a broad-brush kind of way.
Seems fairly innocuous compared to the idea that about a third of them seem to think they are there to protect a pink boat from a mob.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think it's to give them room to 'unlock' those that are 'locked-on' to the boat, with the intention of moving the boat without people being dragged along with it.
> 
> An attempt to remove a focal point for protesters.



Yeah, I guess the first part makes sense.
Not so sure about the second bit.

_"You know what will effectively hide this pink boat?  A luminous yellow garland of coppers, that's what"._


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, I guess the first part makes sense.
> Not so sure about the second bit.
> 
> _"You know what will effectively hide this pink boat?  A luminous yellow garland of coppers, that's what"._





Remove 'locked-on' people > remove boat > one focal point disappears.

They are only on stage one ATM.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 19, 2019)

Would be interesting if another four pink boats appeared at other junctions.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Apparently they've started picking off people at Waterloo Bridge, a couple of dozen so far, several hundred more to go.



I was there at around three and it was ok.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2019)

I've just come back from the Oxford Circus and Marble Arch protests. Incredibly well organised.  They even brought along their own toilets, stage and solar power arrays.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

Marble Arch is like a proper campsite now, all the facilities. Waterloo Bridge isn't bad either actually - it was looking a lot more long term this afternoon than it was on Monday (not surprisingly).


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2019)

I'm heading down to Waterloo Bridge now.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

I liked the sign on the side of the stage at WB saying "look at the issues, don't look at the hippies". Self awareness is important


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 19, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm heading down to Waterloo Bridge now.



Pics later?


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Pics later?


Damn straight!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Remove 'locked-on' people > remove boat > one focal point disappears.
> 
> They are only on stage one ATM.



They are well into stage two, the boat's mast has been taken down, and it's about to be towed away. 

* live on Sky News - reporter & cameraman being pushed back by the cops.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2019)

Good on em, hope the message gets through. 

I wasn't on the email telling me about it however, that's my excuse for not being there!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

Farewell, boaty mcpinkyboatface, you'll be missed.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2019)

Im guessing Waterloo Bridge is next. They have been telling them to move to Marble Arch for some time.

I'm going down tomorrow with more food.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

editor said:


> View attachment 168325



I like the fact the one copper is looking all serious, but the one to the left is smiling away.


----------



## tim (Apr 19, 2019)

.


editor said:


> I've just come back from the Oxford Circus and Marble Arch protests. Incredibly well organised.  They even brought along their own toilets, stage and solar power arrays.



I thought I saw you walking under the Arch at Marble Arch, having a vague idea of what you look like. I may have been correct.


----------



## T & P (Apr 19, 2019)

From the disruption angle, today seems to me an odd day to try to move along the protesters. It’s not a working day and while the place is clearly busy with tourists, London is largely empty of the kind of people who would want or need to drive a car into central London. So the actual disruption to car drivers and/or local businesses today will be the lowest it’s been all week.

From the plod’s POV surely it’d make more sense to let the protesters alone until Monday evening...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

T & P said:


> From the disruption angle, today seems to me an odd day to try to move along the protesters. It’s not a working day and while the place is clearly busy with tourists, London is largely empty of the kind of people who would want or need to drive a car into central London. So the actual disruption to car drivers and/or local businesses today will be the lowest it’s been all week.
> 
> From the plod’s POV surely it’d make more sense to let the protesters alone until Monday evening...


I think it's mostly down to political pressure building up - the government and the right wing press (in which I include the bbc) have been banging on about getting rid of them increasingly.

Not that we have a political police force of course.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

T & P said:


> From the disruption angle, today seems to me an odd day to try to move along the protesters. It’s not a working day and while the place is clearly busy with tourists, London is largely empty of the kind of people who would want or need to drive a car into central London. So the actual disruption to car drivers and/or local businesses today will be the lowest it’s been all week.
> 
> From the plod’s POV surely it’d make more sense to let the protesters alone until Monday evening...



I guess they are trying to close down all the different protest locations, one-by-one, to have them all cleared by the end of the weekend. Not sure that plan will work, will be very interesting watching the cat & mouse games.

What I find funny, is it took until day 5 before they came up with a plan to remove the pink boat, spent most of today getting it ready to move, and now hundreds of people are sitting down in the road & blocking their planned route to remove it.


----------



## tim (Apr 19, 2019)

T & P said:


> From the disruption angle, today seems to me an odd day to try to move along the protesters. It’s not a working day and while the place is clearly busy with tourists, London is largely empty of the kind of people who would want or need to drive a car into central London. So the actual disruption to car drivers and/or local businesses today will be the lowest it’s been all week.
> 
> From the plod’s POV surely it’d make more sense to let the protesters alone until Monday evening...



Is it the return of the Summer or love it will it be our version of the Prague Spring?

I have visions of my last heroic minutes being broadcast live on Chinese television as I try and stop a British tank by waving a Waitrose Bag for Life at it.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 19, 2019)

Ive left but very inspiring to see so many people there now, more than before even. Shame about the boat.. the music was so banging there on Wednesday.

As for the OB... pretty hilarious decision trying to clear Oxford Circus on a bank holiday and hottest day of the year so far. They must have money to burn.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

The BBC News report just now made me laugh... the cops had finally freed the boat, turned it around, attached it to a truck to tow it away, thought they had a clear path & were ready to go.

But, protesters took to the back streets, and hundreds suddenly reappeared in their planned path & sat down.

It's like a real life version of whack a mole.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The BBC News report just now made me laugh... the cops had finally freed the boat, turned it around, attached it to a truck to tow it away, thought they had a clear path & were ready to go.
> 
> But, protesters took to the back streets, and hundreds suddenly reappeared in their planned path & sat down.
> 
> It's like a real life version of whack a mole.


The cops have a big disadvantage when it comes to agility here - not just physically, they're all wearing loads of body armour and shit, but organisationally. They don't move without centralised orders and that just can't compete with a decentralised group who use far more sophisticated technology (i.e. "the internet") and are prepared to take individual action anyway. If there's any number of people with a coherent central plan who can improvise they run rings round them. The only thing they can do is try to reduce the numbers and that is difficult when aggressive and punitive action just increases them.

I noticed some of the police commentators interviewed on the BBC seemed to be aware of how limited they were and how little any of the macho bollocks being promoted by the Sun, Today etc would achieve. There was a constant thread of exasperated "well what do you actually want us to _do_? none of this is going to stop it, it will just make it all worse".


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 19, 2019)




----------



## kenny g (Apr 19, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


>


Just got back on the net after a few hours of rest time and massive grins! As soon as the boat was starting to become an icon for celebs and all the shite that might bring a new page starts to turn.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The cops have a big disadvantage when it comes to agility here - not just physically, they're all wearing loads of body armour and shit, but organisationally. They don't move without centralised orders and that just can't compete with a decentralised group who use far more sophisticated technology (i.e. "the internet") and are prepared to take individual action anyway. If there's any number of people with a coherent central plan who can improvise they run rings round them. The only thing they can do is try to reduce the numbers and that is difficult when aggressive and punitive action just increases them.
> 
> I noticed some of the police commentators interviewed on the BBC seemed to be aware of how limited they were and how little any of the macho bollocks being promoted by the Sun, Today etc would achieve. There was a constant thread of exasperated "well what do you actually want us to _do_? none of this is going to stop it, it will just make it all worse".



Yep, the police are totally confused by the whole situation, they can't go in hard  against such peaceful protesters, when they are under a massive media spotlight, and it's not just UK media, but international media attention is focused on London, being the main protest, whilst there's also action across Europe, and even down under.

I take my hat off to this lot, it's funny as fuck.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> ..
> I take my hat off to this lot, it's funny as fuck.


I would take my hat off to them more if they had done it while parliament was sitting.


----------



## editor (Apr 19, 2019)

Photos here - 



















































More here - In photos: Extinction Rebellion protests at Oxford Circus, Marble Arch and Waterloo Bridge. Day 5: Friday 19th April 2019


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

weltweit said:


> I would take my hat off to them more if they had done it while parliament was sitting.



They wouldn't get this media coverage, it would be back to endless Brexit bollocks in the news, I think the timing is actually a very clever move.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> They wouldn't get this media coverage, it would be back to endless Brexit bollocks in the news, I think the timing is actually a very clever move.



And what with the younguns being off school. Where was their banner drop today saying “Are we the last generation?” Any photos of that? News coverage?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2019)

weltweit said:


> I would take my hat off to them more if they had done it while parliament was sitting.



I think that's unfair. I'm impressed they even managed to get several days protest at various locations in this countries capital City.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 19, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And what with the younguns being off school. Where was their banner drop today saying “Are we the last generation?” Any photos of that? News coverage?





Heathrow airport protest: Police stop Extinction Rebellion activists blocking road

Sky News interviewed a couple of teens at the Heathrow protest, sobbing, it was very moving, they played the PR card brilliantly.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 19, 2019)

Whay hasn't anyone locked themselves to the railings at Buckingham Palace? That would cause a _proper_ shit show and be seen around the world. Ditto, Kensington Palace, Downing Street ...


----------



## TopCat (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Whay hasn't anyone locked themselves to the railings at Buckingham Palace? That would cause a _proper_ shit show and be seen around the world. Ditto, Kensington Palace, Downing Street ...


You first.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> They wouldn't get this media coverage, it would be back to endless Brexit bollocks in the news, I think the timing is actually a very clever move.



Aha, I hadn't thought of that. 



Gramsci said:


> I think that's unfair. I'm impressed they even managed to get several days protest at various locations in this countries capital City.



Yes, they are definitely doing well.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 19, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> It could become more grassroots if people got involved and changed the direction
> 
> I feel ambivalent about a lot of XR strategy but I can see that the organisation that's built over recent months has been the key to keeping the action going since Sunday



As much as I admire what you and the other protestors are doing I have reservations about the leadership.

Looking at my notes of the video posted up by smokedout  in post 668 another quote from Roger Hallam , a founder of ER, is that once the protest starts people will join up as people are "herd animal types". As this was posted on YouTube by XR, ie it could have been edited, its imo pretty derogatory statement to make of the average person who might offer some help.

And to take butchersapron comment post 680 if XR did get to have talks with government I'm a bit concerned who would this be. Sounds like Roger Hallam and Gail.

He does say in video idea is to use non violent direct action to bring capital city to a halt. Like a workforce uses strike to make management see its better to negotiate rather than lose more profits with longer strike.

When that has been done XR will meet government to discuss State of Emergency and Zero Carbon by 2025. Which can come across as verging on authoritarian to me. Something Roger criticised other social movements for btw. 

This all sounds top down to me.

With ground level activists getting arrested , running occupations getting little say in the end.

I'm saying this as I've seen it happen in smaller scale community projects/ campaigns.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 19, 2019)

my personal experience of nonviolent protest is that it's a bit easier to promote nonviolence when you aren't the one being hit. as much as on principle i agree nonviolence is broadly the preferable tactic, there genuinely is IMO a limit, especially when we take a step back and look at the bigger Class picture.

eta: i think in this particular case (extinction rebellion's current / ongoing actions) the push for nonviolence all the way through is wise. apart from the principle, it makes it harder for the police to find a pretext to wade in. that doesn't necessarily make it the ideal tactic at _all_ places and times.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> As much as I admire what you and the other protestors are doing I have reservations about the leadership.
> 
> Looking at my notes of the video posted up by smokedout  in post 668 another quote from Roger Hallam , a founder of ER, is that once the protest starts people will join up as people are "herd animal types". As this was posted on YouTube by XR, ie it could have been edited, its imo pretty derogatory statement to make of the average person who might offer some help.
> 
> ...


Yeh but I reckon the leaders will be left behind, the herd will overtake them


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2019)

> *Simon Bramwell taken away in a police van after supergluing himself to Shell HQ*
> *Gail Bradbrook, 47, of Wiltshire, was turned to activism by two psychedelic drugs*
> *Cambridge graduate Tasmin Osmond, 35, is granddaughter of Sir Thomas Lees*
> *George Barda, 43, blames the 'Criminal UK Government' for climate change*
> The faces behind the Extinction Rebellion climate change chaos | Daily Mail Online



The Mail names some of the 'leaders'

Good to see it wasn't a phase with Tamsin, Plane Stupid, etc.


----------



## tom Hardy (Apr 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Whay hasn't anyone locked themselves to the railings at Buckingham Palace? That would cause a _proper_ shit show and be seen around the world. Ditto, Kensington Palace, Downing Street ...


 


SpookyFrank said:


> Looks like these lot are missing a few pages from their copy of 'kettling for dummies'.


The call then went out for rebels to kettle the police...worked a treat!


----------



## LDC (Apr 19, 2019)

treelover said:


> The Mail names some of the 'leaders'
> 
> Good to see it wasn't a phase with Tamsin, Plane Stupid, etc.



I fucking hate that Tamsin, everytime she talks I want to puke.


----------



## MrSpikey (Apr 19, 2019)

pesh said:


> the doughnut of Babylon


Typical central London - full of bloody torusts.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 20, 2019)

This evening the roads around Waterloo have seen quite a few supercars and fast bikes. Perfectly indicative of the mindset of petrol heads in general (to come and rev around a climate change protest) but I do like fancy cars and bikes so I've been having a great time.

Hope they don't gather en mass in some group dickhead ritual...


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2019)

Yes. 


Attenborough climate show a 'call to arms'


----------



## spanglechick (Apr 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 168335
> 
> Heathrow airport protest: Police stop Extinction Rebellion activists blocking road
> 
> Sky News interviewed a couple of teens at the Heathrow protest, sobbing, it was very moving, they played the PR card brilliantly.



I teach three of the kids in that pic.  So proud.


----------



## Balbi (Apr 20, 2019)

Motorists upset by climate change protests will be a lot more annoyed by real climate change, say protesters

Quality headline here in Aotearoa


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The BBC News report just now made me laugh... the cops had finally freed the boat, turned it around, attached it to a truck to tow it away, thought they had a clear path & were ready to go.
> 
> But, protesters took to the back streets, and hundreds suddenly reappeared in their planned path & sat down.
> 
> It's like a real life version of whack a mole.



Nice report from the Guardian...



> Five hours later, however, the tables had turned as hundreds of activist reinforcements swarmed into side roads and blocked the end of Regent Street. *The police were surrounded. *As officers attached the Berta Cáceres [boaty mcpinkyboatface] to a lorry, the crowd chanted: “We have more boats.”
> 
> By 7pm police had managed to move the boat just two streets away, *only to find themselves pinned in by more rows of demonstrators* singing the Beatles’ All You Need Is Love. After much obstruction the vessel was eventually driven away up Regent Street followed by jogging uniformed officers.



So, basically protesters kettled the police around boaty mcpinkyboatface, whilst chanting “We have more boats.” 



> As on previous days, the mood was largely respectful on both sides, but video later emerged of activists being dragged roughly across the concrete near Regent Street.



Oh, that's not good news, sounds like they are going to get a little more heavy handed with the protesters, especially perhaps with less live TV reporting over the weekend, hardly surprising I suppose. 



> The Metropolitan police has admitted that it is overstretched and officers said additional forces were called in from Wales and other regions to prevent Heathrow from becoming a target, but fears proved exaggerated. A group of 15 youth activists staged a two-hour peaceful protest at a road junction close to the airport.



It does make me wonder if the threat to Heathrow was just that, with no intention of major action, just grab the headlines, get the media over there, and let the youngsters get the message across. 

Extinction Rebellion day five centres on tussle for control of Oxford Circus


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 20, 2019)

Just seen that video of plod dragging two folk,  no idea whether it’s actually this protest myself


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

Some footage of protesters being dragged roughly.

EDIT - I'll remove that, as it's the same as Mr.Bishie has just posted above...



> In response to the video, a Metropolitan Police spokesperson told _The Independent_: "Protesters have been told to leave Oxford Street and go to Marble Arch. Some demonstrators have decided not to go to Marble Arch and obstructed officers in the course of their duties. The response by officers has been proportionate in order to facilitate their removal."
> Police accused of 'brutal' treatment of Extinction Rebellion activists after officers filmed dragging protesters





> This is the dramatic moment police officers dragged two climate change protesters along the street as they cleared Oxford Circus last night.
> 
> In the clip, an officer can be seen pulling an unmoving blonde demonstrator along the ground towards the edge of the police cordon.
> 
> ...



Sky News reporting live from Oxford Street, said it remained blocked by protesters last night, and they are now constructing a stage to replace the boat.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

Here's a video of one female protester being pushed over by one cunt.

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/vide...14408025/1024x576_MP4_8308625091014408025.mp4


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

Nice piece in the FT, in support of the campaign...

Climate change protesters are telling us the deadly truth - _The writer, a former head of the Downing Street Policy Unit, is a senior fellow at Harvard University
_
ETA: The direct link above doesn't seem to work, because of the paywall, but if you google 'Climate change protesters are telling us the deadly truth' and use the google link you should be able to read it. 



> The furious reaction to this week’s climate change demonstrations in Amsterdam, Paris and other cities is in marked contrast to what I’ve observed on the streets of central London this week. “Sorry for the inconvenience” said the young bearded men at Marble Arch, where protesters closed the junction. Further south, one chauffeur-driven executive leaned out of his stationary car window to tell cameras that “climate change matters”.
> 
> Attempts to portray this movement as a bunch of angry, self-indulgent hippies don’t capture the reality. I met grandmothers who have never marched before, and commuters who decided to join in. On Oxford Street, one placard summed up the mood of regretful determination. “I apologise” it read “but I don’t know what else to do”. That echoes what many of us feel, as we watch our societies distract themselves with everything except the looming climate emergency.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2019)

editor said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Attenborough climate show a 'call to arms'



‘Who’s he, Attenborough? He’s only a broadcaster’

Richard Maddeley. Twat!


----------



## pug (Apr 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Nice piece in the FT, in support of the campaign...
> 
> Climate change protesters are telling us the deadly truth - _The writer, a former head of the Downing Street Policy Unit, is a senior fellow at Harvard University
> _
> ETA: The direct link above doesn't seem to work, because of the paywall, but if you google 'Climate change protesters are telling us the deadly truth' and use the google link you should be able to read it.



aye, well nice.



> The green movement lost years of progress when it went red. In campaigning for things like social housing, world government and the minimum wage, it blurred its message and alienated much of its potential audience. It also enabled successive US presidents to claim that climate change was a pinko conspiracy. When the old movement campaigned against clean nuclear power, it made green prophets like James Lovelock despair.





> I hope the campaigners will soon start to make pledges about what they, and we, can do as individuals.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

pug said:


> aye, well nice.



Well, except that bit obviously, but overall very positive piece on this specific issue, considering the readership it's aimed at.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> ‘Who’s he, Attenborough? He’s only a broadcaster’
> 
> Richard Maddeley. Twat!


Who's he, Maddeley? He's only a shoplifter.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Who's he, Maddeley? He's only a shoplifter.



And a twat!


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Who's he, Maddeley? He's only a shoplifter.



Spymaster, please don’t take revenge but he also made the posh, fragrant lady cry by his tirade against the protest and Attenborough whilst interviewing her.

Although she is a miner’s daughter from South Elmsall about ten miles from here, so I assumed the tears were caused by passionate and righteous anger.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 20, 2019)

> The green movement lost years of progress when it went red. In campaigning for things like social housing, world government and the minimum wage, it blurred its message and alienated much of its potential audience. It also enabled successive US presidents to claim that climate change was a pinko conspiracy. When the old movement campaigned against clean nuclear power, it made green prophets like James Lovelock despair.



For me it was more the perception of its perpetual finger waving at people for eating meat, driving cars, taking flights and so on. Couple that with them being a bunch of tye dyed hippies and it put me and I suspect many others, off. Even though we've all known for some time about climate change. 

I don't feel that at all with this protest. I've always thought marching was largely pointless and that blocking streets and keeping them blocked was how to get noticed and look what this has achieved. This feels different to me. I've never been more behind a protest than I am this one. Climate change for me has always been a thing that's happening but something that's somewhere off in the future, won't affect me and will probably get sorted out before the worst affects of it take hold. This protest has got me reading and talking about climate change more than I have before and it's changed my mind about it being somewhere off in the future.

I think recently experiencing the first death of someone close to me in my life, someone young and who chose to end it themselves has really sharpened my focus on the precarious preciousness of it all and that it's probably worth saving. I hope this goes on into next week when I'll be in London so I can get down there and show my support.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 20, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Spymaster, please don’t take revenge but he also made the posh, fragrant lady cry by his tirade against the protest and Attenborough whilst interviewing her.
> 
> Although she is a miner’s daughter from South Elmsall about ten miles from here, so I assumed the tears were caused by passionate and righteous anger.


Fucking piss-head should stick to walking out of supermarkets and _forgetting to pay_ for the champagne and whisky in his shopping trolley.

We've all done it, haven't we? You get out to the car park "Oh look! I've forgotten to pay for five bottles of booze. Completely forgot about them". 

Wanker.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 20, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Climate change for me has always been a thing that's happening but something that's somewhere off in the future, won't affect me and will probably get sorted out before the worst affects of it take hold. This protest has got me reading and talking about climate change more than I have before and it's changed my mind about it being somewhere off in the future.



This, pretty much. But the message I am seeing is that it's too late to stop driving, taking flights, eating meat etc. Yes those things need to happen, but as a result of a total change in the way the global economy works, which will see a considerable change in lifestyles for everyone. It is the rich that need to heed this message and XR having so many Tamsins and so on with them may just persuade the rich to pay some attention. Probably not though.


----------



## tommers (Apr 20, 2019)

I was talking to my neighbour yesterday and she is going to go down today with her toddler.

I'm thinking about maybe going tomorrow with my kids.

That Attenborough programme was definitely a wake up call. I was also "this is a problem but it'll be sorted" but now I think it won't. I think most people realise that this is a problem that isn't going to go away and protests like this are necessary. Fair play to them for doing it and for planning it so well.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

Sky is reporting something odd - earlier there was very few protesters at Oxford Circus, when shedloads of cops turned-up, and everyone was expecting to be removed. Instead the cops stood around for a few hours, just watching as more protesters started to arrive. The cops have now withdrawn & told the protesters there will be no arrests today.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2019)

> According to Stanford University’s Doug McAdam, the climate change movement has historically been a failure when compared with other movements. Climate activists have struggled to engage politicians, been unable to build influential organisations, and failed to connect with the wider public.





> Extinction Rebellion’s call for “ecological justice” will appeal to people on the left, but it will miss out those in the centre and alienate folks on the right. If the rebels want to reach out, they could instead talk about “preserving the purity of nature” or “saving our national natural heritage”. Their tactics are also likely to push away many potential supporters. Acts of civil disobedience such as occupying bridges, guerrilla gardening and protest puppetry may appeal to seasoned activists, but are a turnoff for thousands of potential supporters who might walk past such occupations. If the rebels want to reach out, they should use social rituals which other groups are familiar with – instead of glueing themselves to DLR trains, they might hold tea parties at local fetes.
> 
> The Extinction Rebels have got their tactics badly wrong. Here’s why | André Spicer




A Business Studies Professor disagrees with the nature of the protest.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

There is a circle of people and a few folk locked on to each other - a smattering of cops but they aren't doing anything.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> A Business Studies Professor disagrees with the nature of the protest.


"Hold tea parties at local fetes" lol


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "Hold tea parties at local fetes" lol



That you can drive to in your Range Rover.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

Parliament Square looks the same as it did yesterday tbh.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2019)

I wonder how ER will respond to the festival season, ecological footprint, etc.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> I wonder how ER will respond to the festival season, ecological footprint, etc.


What are you wibbling on about? For all XR's many flaws, thank god they have not fallen into the idiocy of obsessing about individual carbon footprints. It's so far besides the point that it's the kind of line I'd expect a BBC news presenter to be worried about, not someone with political nous.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 20, 2019)

Why is this non violent protest being perceived as so much more so than others? People keep talking about how the police feel conflicted about this and all I can think about is yes, it's great that plod aren't rushing in and breaking heads however out of the many times that they have over the years at demos I have been to a majority of people were as peaceful and non violent as this.


Clearing OC again by the looks of things.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Why is this non violent protest being perceived as so much more so than others? People keep talking about how the police feel conflicted about this and all I can think about is yes, it's great that plod are rushing in and breaking heads however out of the many times that they have over the years at demos I have been to a majority of people were as peaceful and non violent as this.


Probably because non-violence was a stated goal and a major USP of this protest from the start. Most others don't specifically go out of their way to make that clear, and some are deliberately more aggressive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Why is this non violent protest being perceived as so much more so than others? People keep talking about how the police feel conflicted about this and all I can think about is yes, it's great that plod are rushing in and breaking heads however out of the many times that they have over the years at demos I have been to a majority of people were as peaceful and non violent as this.
> 
> 
> Clearing OC again by the looks of things.



It's a puzzle to me too


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Probably because non-violence was a stated goal and a major USP of this protest from the start. Most others don't specifically go out of their way to make that clear, and some are deliberately more aggressive.


The climate camp I mentioned above was explicitly peaceful, so it's hardly a usp of this protest. The usp of er is a willingness on the part of many participants to be nicked. Which isn't much of a selling point tbh. Ever since at least 1819 - peterloo - the authorities have been happy to assault peaceful crowds, so I don't have any confidence in your argument


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Why is this non violent protest being perceived as so much more so than others? People keep talking about how the police feel conflicted about this and all I can think about is yes, it's great that plod aren't rushing in and breaking heads however out of the many times that they have over the years at demos I have been to a majority of people were as peaceful and non violent as this.



I think you answered yourself, mentioning the 'majority of people were as peaceful', it only takes a handful to kick-off, throwing bottles or whatever at the cops, and that gives them the excuse to kick-off themselves.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2019)

I got quite emotional yesterday at the protests, as did several old school campaigners I bumped into. The passion, commitment, energy and organisation is bloody fantastic.

I can't recommend enough to people that they should take the time to take a look. It really feels like this could be the start of something,


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Why is this non violent protest being perceived as so much more so than others? People keep talking about how the police feel conflicted about this and all I can think about is yes, it's great that plod aren't rushing in and breaking heads however out of the many times that they have over the years at demos I have been to a majority of people were as peaceful and non violent as this.


Banning booze and drugs off the sites makes a huge difference and makes a clear statement that it's a protest not a party so people looking for some bottle lobbing/police-charge inciting fun aren't likely to be interested.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 20, 2019)

Plus, of course, this has drawn massive media attention, with live reporters on the ground, which makes things difficult for the cops.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 20, 2019)

I think keeping it booze free as a self policed rule might help too. That sort of thing matters not just for stopping violence but also for PR purposes. I wanted to get involved with occupy at Bristol but whenever I went there were lots of pissed up twats staggering about with cans of special brew and tents with conspiraloon banners. If it puts someone like me off who's broadly sympathetic to their views then it won't do well for the call centre staff who walked past it every day.

Editor beat me to it!


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The climate camp I mentioned above was explicitly peaceful, so it's hardly a usp of this protest.


It's certainly been one of their most enduring messages from the outset and given the size and duration of the action it's remarkable that there hasn't, so far, been a serious kick off.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think you answered yourself, mentioning the 'majority of people were as peaceful', it only takes a handful to kick-off, throwing bottles or whatever at the cops, and that gives them the excuse to kick-off themselves.



All it takes for the police to kick off is for the police to kick off, as many of us here will know from first hand experience. By claiming that police violence against protests is always catalysed by some rogue element among the protestors you're just doing their PR work for them.

And even if there was a violent element, that wouldn't justify collective punishment against the entire group.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 20, 2019)

Also see _agent provocateurs..._I wonder how many under cover plod are amongst the protestors? Why are they not causing trouble like they are known to...collecting info I imagine...this police approach is much more than_ 'well there are no drunk twats there so they don't have an excuse' IMO._


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

Yeah, OC is being cleared again, though a much smaller police operation than before.

ETA: actually not so much smaller in numbers but they've not closed roads.


----------



## xenon (Apr 20, 2019)

For all the faults seasoned protesters level at some of what XR are doing, they have played an absolute blinder. No one's reporting any agro. Phone in shows have been talking about climate change for several days. Even some of the usual grumpy black cab drivers concede they have a point. And it seems to have drawn a wide demographic of people. I don't do public protests / marches for practicle reasons, Kudos to those involved.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Also see _agent provocateurs..._I wonder how many under cover plod are amongst the protestors? Why are they not causing trouble like they are known to...collecting info I imagine...this police approach is much more than_ 'well there are no drunk twats there so they don't have an excuse' IMO._



Yeah there is of course provocateurs. The police aren't exactly on good terms with this government so maybe letting it play out more puts increased pressure on the tories? Highlights to the public just how stretched they are? Perhaps the police actually agree with the protesters and are taking a hands of approach? It's their planet too! 

Not forgetting the shitstorm they faced when kettling the G20 protest that caused the death of Ian Tomlinson. I think the police might have concluded that this time, going in heavy handed against a group of protesters protesting about human extintion who have the stated policy of non violence, no drinking and drugs, wanting to get nicked and in this particularly climate of cuts, Brexit and so on, might not be a good look for them whereas other times it was ok. I'm wildly speculating of course.


----------



## Sue (Apr 20, 2019)

xenon said:


> And it seems to have drawn a wide demographic of people.


Tbh, when I walked across Waterloo Bridge and back the other day (was trying to get somewhere rather than going to the protest), the demographic was exactly as I'd thought it would be, right down to the people handing out CND stuff.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2019)

Because of the nature of the protests, agent provocateurs would stand out a mile and swiftly be exposed. And even the cops know that.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It's a puzzle to me too



Is it because none of us are there?  No usual suspects, no class war, no individuals of interest or with records?  This all makes it very non threatening for the police.  There's little chance of one of them gettig hurt or something smashed up and them being blamed for letting it happen.  They know they can clear it any time they want if they have to, it's not causing that much disruption, it's hot, they're tired, why not let it play out and only go in hard if they get clear instructions to.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

The camp at Marble Arch is probably the part of that area with the least drugs right now, given that Hyde Park is full of people smoking weed


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The camp at Marble Arch is probably the part of that area with the least drugs right now, given that Hyde Park is full of people smoking weed



I saw there's a 420 gathering today. At 12 noon


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 20, 2019)

probably as much about over stretched police resources as anything else. They are under considerable political pressure over knife crime - and then this all lands in their lap. Government and cops have been caught on the hop and haven't prepared any sort of response - TSG may be already deployed elsewhere.
At things like mayday, climate camp and g20 - cops had months to prepare, launch pre-emptive scare tactics and get clear instructions from government over what was the acceptable level of cuntery they could deploy. 
Now its snowballed with all sorts joining in  - rather than the "usual suspects"of seasoned activists - and its got huge - and generally positive - coverage.  
so government and cops seem confused as to how to respond -  whats most likely is that they try to prepare the ground with smear stories and wot not before going in with the heavy mob. They will be worried that this will get even bigger if they dont do something quick - but it may actually be too late and it will backfire.
All quite exciting!
Who'd have thought that by far the most disruptive and effective protests of 2019 
would have nothing to do with brexit? compare and contrast with the 6 twats who tired to blockade liddle cos gammon rage.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 20, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> probably as much about over stretched police resources as anything else. They are under considerable political pressure over knife crime - and then this all lands in their lap. Government and cops have been caught on the hop and haven't prepared any sort of response - TSG may be already deployed elsewhere.
> At things like mayday, climate camp and g20 - cops had months to prepare, launch pre-emptive scare tactics and get clear instructions from government over what was the acceptable level of cuntery they could deploy.
> Now its snowballed with all sorts joining in  - rather than the "usual suspects"of seasoned activists - and its got huge - and generally positive - coverage.
> so government and cops seem confused as to how to respond -  whats most likely is that they try to prepare the ground with smear stories and wot not before going in with the heavy mob. They will be worried that this will get even bigger if they dont do something quick - but it may actually be too late and it will backfire.
> ...




OB can clear it whenever they like, if they really want to. Too few cells? Didn’t stop them nicking en masse the Mark Duggan rioters.

Savid Javid has called for the full force of the law to be used, when as the head honcho of law in the UK he and his predecessors have been slashing law and order budgets, both in the piggery and the courts. And now he’s asking both to back him up to make him look good...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Plus, of course, this has drawn massive media attention, with live reporters on the ground, which makes things difficult for the cops.



Again, this is bollocks. I've seen friends getting their heads bashed in on live national TV, and still 'not enough evidence' to uphold a complaint against the police. Simon Harwood was filmed battering Ian Tomlinson to the ground minutes before he died from internal injuries, and he still walked.

There are always cameras everywhere these days. The lack of police accountability is political, not a result of there being insufficient evidence of their crimes.


----------



## xenon (Apr 20, 2019)

Sue said:


> Tbh, when I walked across Waterloo Bridge and back the other day (was trying to get somewhere rather than going to the protest), the demographic was exactly as I'd thought it would be, right down to the people handing out CND stuff.


Fair enough. I'm just going by vox pops and radio stuff where it seems there's quite a few older  never been on a protest before types that have joined in as well.


----------



## xenon (Apr 20, 2019)

It's always worth saying again that  Sagid Javid is a total wanker.


----------



## newbie (Apr 20, 2019)

My friend observed that she was out risking arrest to demonstrate, for the first time in her life, her fundamental agreement with government objectives, though seeking much greater urgency and attention.  That's in sharp contrast to previous campaigns of determined civil disobedience she or others had participated in which were in direct opposition to what the government was attempting to achieve.  Nuclear, road, poll tax, animal testing, new runway etc.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 20, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Savid Javid has called for the full force of the law to be used, when as the head honcho of law in the UK he and his predecessors have been slashing law and order budgets, both in the piggery and the courts. And now he’s asking both to back him up to make him look good...



yes javid did say that - but the cops are still holding back. which suggests that what he spouts to the tory party members to help his leadership bid and what he is saying to the met might not be the same thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

xenon said:


> It's always worth saying again that  Sagid Javid is a total wanker.



Shameless gambit for some free likes but have one anyway.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

What's with all this_ agent provocateurs_ nonsense suddenly? Like people aren't ever angry enough to riot.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

newbie said:


> My friend observed that she was out risking arrest to demonstrate, for the first time in her life, her fundamental agreement with government objectives, though seeking much greater urgency and attention.  That's in sharp contrast to previous campaigns of determined civil disobedience she or others had participated in which were in direct opposition to what the government was attempting to achieve.  Nuclear, road, poll tax, animal testing, new runway etc.



The government is trying to achieve disaster capitalism. Ameliorating the effects of climate change is a goal that stands in direct opposition to that.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

editor said:


> I got quite emotional yesterday at the protests, as did several old school campaigners I bumped into. The passion, commitment, energy and organisation is bloody fantastic.
> 
> I can't recommend enough to people that they should take the time to take a look. It really feels like this could be the start of something,



'Campaigners' says it all really. And the start of what do you think?


----------



## newbie (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> The government is trying to achieve disaster capitalism. Ameliorating the effects of climate change is a goal that stands in direct opposition to that.


the allusion was to established climate change policies, not attitudes to capitalism. She hasn't suddenly become a tory, but was reflecting on the nature of the protest and the sort of question Rutita1 posed, and the nature of the policing.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 20, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> OB can clear it whenever they like, if they really want to. Too few cells? Didn’t stop them nicking en masse the Mark Duggan rioters.
> 
> Savid Javid has called for the full force of the law to be used, when as the head honcho of law in the UK he and his predecessors have been slashing law and order budgets, both in the piggery and the courts. And now he’s asking both to back him up to make him look good...


Think you might be onto something here. I've also been puzzled by the apparent police tolerance of the protests. People being peaceful has never stopped them being cunts before. Maybe the protests are a bargaining chip with govt at this point. The police just play the game of saying 'we don't have enough resources to stop this' until the govt ups their budget.

A bit conspiracy-theory maybe, but I simply can't buy the line that the police can't use their usual tactics because the protesters are being peaceful.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I saw there's a 420 gathering today. At 12 noon


There's a sign up at the park entrance saying "protestors will be asked to vacate @ 1700hrs", by which I think they mean the weed protestors rather than the XR lot. Good luck with that then. At half two people were still streaming in on the tube.


----------



## Flavour (Apr 20, 2019)

The start of something...The government paying more lip service to climate change while continuing to prioritize the health of the stock market over the planet. I don't think it would take much from the gov to satisfy the majority of XR protesters in the short term, buying themselves time would be cheap


----------



## rowan (Apr 20, 2019)

Apologies for jumping in at page 30 and possibly repeating what's already been posted, haven't got time to read the whole lot! 
I'm all for protest, it's often the only way to get anyone to take any notice, but I simply can't understand why ER have chosen to protest while Parliament is closed for Easter? They say they'll stay there till the govt listens, so why not protest when the MPs will actually be affected and not when they're swanning off around the world on holiday? 
Instead they're affecting ordinary London commuters (which I was unfortunate enough to be for years before making my escape!), the very people whose support they need!
And why aren't they targeting the most polluting countries? We keep being told that China is the biggest polluter, but that's only because they're the most populated, and they rank only just above us.
Per capita it's the USA, Australia and Canada who are the top 3, why not target their Embassies, there's more point to that than targeting Corbyn's garden fence!


----------



## newtoprotest (Apr 20, 2019)

New to here, and apart from two protest marches over the last 60 years new to protesting, especially civil disobedience.  I spent two days in London, had to come home for grandchild-sitting duties and because I was knackered, but I'm glad I was part of it.  Parliament may be in recess but government goes on.  The amount of media coverage Extinction Rebellion has got is tremendous - I've never heard climate change being discussed so much.  And it's an international movement, so XR here is targeting here; there's XR movements in many, many other countries doing their bit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 20, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What's with all this_ ageto riot. nt provocateurs_ nonsense suddenly? Like people aren't ever angry enough to riot.


It isn't nonsense and of course people are often righteously angry enough to riot. Nobody has suggested anything of the sort so that isn't what was being discussed.

The point is that protests don't only turn violent because of a few drunk twats goading police as was being suggested. Myself and others here have experience of unprovoked heavy handed policing at peaceful protests as well as obvious AP rabble rousing to give plod an excuse. We are musing on why that isn't happening with this protest.


----------



## newtoprotest (Apr 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It isn't nonsense and of course people are often righteously angry enough to riot. Nobody has suggested anything of the sort so that isn't what was being discussed.
> 
> The point is that protests don't only turn violent because of a few drunk twats goading police as was being suggested. Myself and others here have experience of unprovoked heavy handed policing at peaceful protests as well as obvious AP rabble rousing to give plod an excuse. We are musing on why that isn't happening with this protest.



I've been wondering about that.  A few thoughts - lack of resources, or wanting to make clear to government that they need more resources; large numbers of Legal Observers and world media; the avowedly non-violent stance has to play a part; and an outside chance that some of them actually sympathise with the cause.  I suspect it's about to change though - the video of them dragging a couple of passive protesters along the pavement wasn't playing nicely.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 20, 2019)

For the most part, the police are genuinely pissed off, tired and worn out. Dont forget that they are also in the main relatively new recruits who have been trained on the human rights act, lawful arrest, limits of powers etc. The miners strike is no longer seen by many officers as something to take pride in and in any case it was over a generation ago. The collective police memory is that they were used and then shafted. If your day job is dealing with drunks and the fall out from austerity a few thousand polite well behaved obstructers of the highway dont appear like the enemy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

kenny g said:


> For the most part, the police are genuinely pissed off, tired and worn out. Dont forget that they are also in the main relatively new recruits who have been trained on the human rights act, lawful arrest, limits of powers etc. The miners strike is no longer seen by many officers as something to take pride in and in any case it was over a generation ago. The collective police memory is that they were used and then shafted. If your day job is dealing with drunks and the fall out from austerity a few thousand polite well behaved obstructers of the highway dont appear like the enemy.



More horseshit.

Police 'used sexualised violence against fracking protesters'

These lot were polite, well behaved highway obstructers and they were repeatedly and consistently beaten, sexually assaulted, fitted up and slandered by police.

The police have not cleaned up their act since the miner's strike or Hillsborough or the troubles, they've cleaned up their image. They've done this with the help of tame media and a broad culture of PR turd-polishing.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It isn't nonsense and of course people are often righteously angry enough to riot. Nobody has suggested anything of the sort so that isn't what was being discussed.
> 
> The point is that protests don't only turn violent because of a few drunk twats goading police as was being suggested. Myself and others here have experience of unprovoked heavy handed policing at peaceful protests as well as obvious AP rabble rousing to give plod an excuse. We are musing on why that isn't happening with this protest.



In some years of organizing and going on demos and actions I have never once seen anything resembling agent provocateurs, and I know of no proved (unmasked/exposed) cases at all in the UK. Doesn't mean they haven't happened, but if they have it's much much rarer than people go on about, and IME all the calls of 'provocateurs' were usually directed at people not toeing the non-violence line.


----------



## killer b (Apr 20, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In many many years of organizing and going on demos and actions I have never once seen anything resembling agent provocateurs, and I know of no proved (unmasked/exposed) cases at all in the UK. Doesn't mean they haven't happened, but if they have it's much much rarer than people go on about, and IME all the calls of 'provocateurs' were usually directed at people not toeing the non-violence line.


Hasn't the spycops case unmasked/exposed absolutely shitloads of them?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> Hasn't the spycops case unmasked/exposed absolutely shitloads of them?



They were long term, deep cover types and so unlikely to risk exposure by openly encouraging violent/aggressive tactics.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

killer b said:


> Hasn't the spycops case unmasked/exposed absolutely shitloads of them?



No, it exposed undercover cops. That's very different to saying some people are agent provocateurs on demos/actions.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They were long term, deep cover types and so unlikely to risk exposure by openly encouraging violent/aggressive tactics.



_Some_ did engage a bit more like that on certain demos, but as part of creating a convincing cover, not to engineer a situation to justify the cops wading in.


----------



## killer b (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They were long term, deep cover types and so unlikely to risk exposure by openly encouraging violent/aggressive tactics.


Some of the accounts I've read said they did exactly this.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> More horseshit.
> 
> Police 'used sexualised violence against fracking protesters'
> 
> ...


It's not horseshit - the cops at all of the sites have been generally pretty uninterested in doing anything beyond their direct orders. I'm sure there is an old school segment who treat protestors as the enemy - I overheard a conversation where one older copper was talking about how they could put your head through a window if you didn't keep an eye on them at all times during arrests - but generally they don't seem to take any personal joy in it all. I heard a younger copper giving actually quite a fair description of what was going on to some children who were at OC this afternoon.

Of course the issue is how much this matters given that whatever they might feel personally they're still going to do what they're told. We're hardly at the point of police rebellion. I wouldn't trust them any more than if they clearly hated the folk there.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

Policing in the UK is fairly well advanced in terms on controlling and containing crowds without overt violence, especially in London and in full view of the media and with such a culturally timely and unchallenging message from ER. It's rare to need to wade into demos, especially nice peaceful ones that aren't currently likely to cause too much trouble. If their potential changes, and especially if the type of person that makes up the demo changes, they'll wade in whatever if it's 'needed'.


----------



## Sue (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They were long term, deep cover types and so unlikely to risk exposure by openly encouraging violent/aggressive tactics.


Apart from stuff like this that is.

Police spy accused of urging anti-racist activists to commit arson


LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No, it exposed undercover cops. That's very different to saying some people are agent provocateurs on demos/actions.


I think it's very naive to think that there aren't potentially agent provocateurs, especially as it's way easier to turn up at a demo or whatever than be embedded long term somewhere and the latter was certainly rife so...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not horseshit - the cops at all of the sites have been generally pretty uninterested in doing anything beyond their direct orders. I'm sure there is an old school segment who treat protestors as the enemy - I overheard a conversation where one older copper was talking about how they could put your head through a window if you didn't keep an eye on them at all times during arrests - but generally they don't seem to take any personal joy in it all.



I don't know or care what they take joy in, I only know what they do. And what they do is treat people like you wouldn't treat a dog. Just because they're behaving themselves in this one place at this moment in time doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to what they actually are as an organisation.


----------



## agricola (Apr 20, 2019)

kenny g said:


> For the most part, the police are genuinely pissed off, tired and worn out. Dont forget that they are also in the main relatively new recruits who have been trained on the human rights act, lawful arrest, limits of powers etc. The miners strike is no longer seen by many officers as something to take pride in and in any case it was over a generation ago. The collective police memory is that they were used and then shafted. If your day job is dealing with drunks and the fall out from austerity a few thousand polite well behaved obstructers of the highway dont appear like the enemy.



Not really.  For a start, I've never come across anyone who openly felt pride in what they did during the Miners Strike, but I have met a lot who managed to achieve financial stability as the result of all the money that the then government threw at them during that time.  Almost all of them have retired now, and we will soon get to the point where almost everyone who qualified for and got a full pension will have retired too. Where there are morale issues with the rest, a lot of it is to how the Met has implemented change at least as much as the cuts - some of the change (the move away from borough-based policing to the larger BCUs especially) was brought in with very little consultation with the public and even less with the staff who would be affected by it.

With regards to "the collective police memory is that they were used and then shafted" - that has been the collective police memory since 1829.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't know or care what they take joy in, I only know what they do. And what they do is treat people like you wouldn't treat a dog. Just because they're behaving themselves in this one place at this moment in time doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to what they actually are as an organisation.


I said that in my second paragraph; in practice it doesn't really matter, if they're told to treat people badly they still will, and I see no change in the people who give the orders. The cops might not casually beat people up for a laugh but then they wouldn't anyway here because of all the cameras on all of these actions, it's not like being out in the country somewhere.

But there is a noticeable difference in attitude. How to build on that is left as an exercise for the keen student I guess. I wouldn't even say it was necessarily a long term difference either.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

Sue said:


> Apart from stuff like this that is.
> 
> Police spy accused of urging anti-racist activists to commit arson
> 
> I think it's very naive to think that there aren't potentially agent provocateurs, especially as it's way easier to turn up at a demo or whatever than be embedded long term somewhere and the latter was certainly rife so...



Like I said, it might happen, but not ever seen it proved or even anywhere close.

And have seen plenty of hippies and idiots screaming provocateur at anyone doing anything they don't like on a demo. And again, Carlo encouraging people to do that is very different to people doing it on a demo.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

What would be (mildly) interesting is whether there's been a cultural/political shift among the ranks of the police regards demos and their policing, and whether they are more amenable to some issues than others. Surely some leftie millenial's PhD thesis?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 20, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Of course the issue is how much this matters given that whatever they might feel personally they're still going to do what they're told. We're hardly at the point of police rebellion. I wouldn't trust them any more than if they clearly hated the folk there.



This.

Once them at the top decide it is time then the smiling, dancing and ollie-ing will stop, the gear will go on and heads will be smashed. The press has been asking for this and the state media will play it down as ever. My bet is anyone left sat around by dusk on Monday is in for a rude awakening.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 20, 2019)

We're not that far away in time from the student protests are we? The ones where the cops used vast kettles of hundreds of cops, baton charges, horse charges, and finally intimidated the protests out of existence by lining the routes of every protest with thousands of cops in riot gear. I don't think a cultural shift has occured in police ranks since then.

ETA: or UKuncut, which was non-violent. The police decided to interpret handing out leaflets in shops as an act of aggression and carried out mass arrests, then flooded the following protests with so many police they basically couldn't happen.

Whatever the reason the police haven't cleared the protests, it isn't that they don't have the ability, and it isn't that their footsoldiers don't have the will.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This.
> 
> Once them at the top decide it is time then the smiling, dancing and ollie-ing will stop, the gear will go on and heads will be smashed. The press has been asking for this and the state media will play it down as ever. My bet is anyone left sat around by dusk on Monday is in for a rude awakening.



The radicalizing power of a truncheon.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> We're not that far away in time from the student protests are we? The ones where the cops used vast kettles of hundreds of cops, baton charges, horse charges, and finally intimidated the protests out of existence by lining the routes of every protest with thousands of cops in riot gear. I don't think a cultural shift has occured in police ranks since then.



No, I'm not saying they're all kombucha drinking touchy feeling types now, only musing on the possibility of a subtle change in conjunction with the other factors that have been mentioned.


----------



## LDC (Apr 20, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No, I'm not saying they're all kombucha drinking touchy feeling types now, only musing on the possibility of a subtle change in conjunction with the other factors that have been mentioned.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> We're not that far away in time from the student protests are we? The ones where the cops used vast kettles of hundreds of cops, baton charges, horse charges, and finally intimidated the protests out of existence by lining the routes of every protest with thousands of cops in riot gear. I don't think a cultural shift has occured in police ranks since then.



Nor are we far from the riots of 2011, where there appeared to be a policy of allowing disorder to escalate unchecked for several days in order to justify  coming down on entire communities like a ton of bricks afterwards. People died as a result of that little bit of game-playing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> We're not that far away in time from the student protests are we? The ones where the cops used vast kettles of hundreds of cops, baton charges, horse charges, and finally intimidated the protests out of existence by lining the routes of every protest with thousands of cops in riot gear. I don't think a cultural shift has occured in police ranks since then.
> 
> ETA: or UKuncut, which was non-violent. The police decided to interpret handing out leaflets in shops as an act of aggression and carried out mass arrests, then flooded the following protests with so many police they basically couldn't happen.
> 
> Whatever the reason the police haven't cleared the protests, it isn't that they don't have the ability, and it isn't that their footsoldiers don't have the will.


No, humans have a great ability to deal with cognitive dissonance and I don't doubt that it won't be any different now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> We're not that far away in time from the student protests are we? The ones where the cops used vast kettles of hundreds of cops, baton charges, horse charges, and finally intimidated the protests out of existence by lining the routes of every protest with thousands of cops in riot gear. I don't think a cultural shift has occured in police ranks since then.
> 
> ETA: or UKuncut, which was non-violent. The police decided to interpret handing out leaflets in shops as an act of aggression and carried out mass arrests, then flooded the following protests with so many police they basically couldn't happen.
> 
> Whatever the reason the police haven't cleared the protests, it isn't that they don't have the ability, and it isn't that their footsoldiers don't have the will.


We are far enough away from the student protests for you go have forgotten the volatility of the period and play down how up for a ruck a lot of people were. They were by no means fluffy. The night charles and camilla shat themselves I saw hundreds if not thousands of young people march through trafalgar square and in the time it took to type this the chant changed from grants not fees to kill the queen.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 20, 2019)

Worth considering the fuel protests back in 2000 odd as well..


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> We are far enough away from the student protests for you go have forgotten the volatility of the period and play down how up for a ruck a lot of people were. They were by no means fluffy. The night charles and camilla shat themselves I saw hundreds if not thousands of young people march through trafalgar square and in the time it took to type this the chant changed from grants not fees to kill the queen.


This just expedites political orders given to the cops though, and makes it easier for them to rationalise their orders personally - it doesn't cause them. Far right protestors in London recently have been openly shouting at cops that they were corrupt and shameful, and were clearly up for a fight, yet somehow it seems not to have happened. Can't imagine why.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

Just been to Oxford circus. Now ringed by police. They were arresting a few protestors.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

Great new fashion accessory.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

Everyone started to go back to Marble Arch for time being. So I left.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Great new fashion accessory.View attachment 168444


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

Dropped food off at Parliament square. Lot of tents back back. Low police profile.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Dropped food off at Parliament square. Lot of tents back back. Low police profile.View attachment 168445 View attachment 168446


And good tunes at the mo ...


----------



## gosub (Apr 20, 2019)

Is this the wrong thread to point out it was rainy before this climate protest started


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 20, 2019)

Met claiming OC is now unblocked



How long for, I can't say.


----------



## 74drew (Apr 20, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There's a sign up at the park entrance saying "protestors will be asked to vacate @ 1700hrs", by which I think they mean the weed protestors rather than the XR lot. Good luck with that then. At half two people were still streaming in on the tube.




Was up there earlier. The signs up were desperate stuff.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 20, 2019)

Smash the sign up


----------



## 74drew (Apr 20, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Smash the sign up


Kid there probably coughing due to the vast skunk fumes.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 20, 2019)

Loads of police at waterloo bridge. Cant get on it but have view from top of some building.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 20, 2019)

Yeah they've had the roundabout shut off entirely for a while now. Reckon they'll go in tonight?


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## kenny g (Apr 20, 2019)

On the bridge now via north side embankment. No idea what tactics are beyond attrition and overtime.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 20, 2019)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2019)

kenny g said:


> .


Good point well made


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

Cressida Dick whining about protestors on radio. Said she had never seen protest with so many arrests. Doesn't mention that XR are peaceful. 

Well she hasn't had anyone shot yet.

I really can't stand her. She is head of the Met. The one in charge of operation that ended with the Charles De Menzes getting killed by Met in Stockwell. Didn't do her career any harm.

She like to present herself as the new face of the Met. Diversity etc.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

kenny g said:


> On the bridge now via north side embankment. No idea what tactics are beyond attrition and overtime.



How many?

There always was a police presence but it was just a few vans.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 20, 2019)

Next step is to come on boats and sling ropes up on to the bridge, reinforce from the water


----------



## kenny g (Apr 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> How many?
> 
> There always was a police presence but it was just a few vans.


When I left they had surrounded the sound truck and were looking out.
Got onto bridge via pedestrian access on north side.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Next step is to come on boats and sling ropes up on to the bridge, reinforce from the water


Scour the cops from the bridge with a fire-fighting boat, or bring Belfast's guns to bear on Scotland Yard


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> She like to present herself as the new face of the Met. Diversity etc.



Caress a Dick. How can anyone ever take anyone seriously with a name like that?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

kenny g said:


> When I left they had surrounded the sound truck and were looking out.
> Got onto bridge via pedestrian access on north side.



Thanks for info. I thought they would go for Parliament square first.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Scour the cops from the bridge with a fire-fighting boat, or bring Belfast's guns to bear on Scotland Yard



I may have misunderstood all this, but I believe the intention is, get every copper in the country to London, then while they're away burn down all the cop shops everywhere else. But I may have just made that up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 20, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Next step is to come on boats and sling ropes up on to the bridge, reinforce from the water



Come by boat, sling ropes on to the bridge and hang Geldof.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2019)

agricola said:


> Not really. * For a start, I've never come across anyone who openly felt pride in what they did during the Miners Strike,* but I have met a lot who managed to achieve financial stability as the result of all the money that the then government threw at them during that time.  Almost all of them have retired now, and we will soon get to the point where almost everyone who qualified for and got a full pension will have retired too. Where there are morale issues with the rest, a lot of it is to how the Met has implemented change at least as much as the cuts - some of the change (the move away from borough-based policing to the larger BCUs especially) was brought in with very little consultation with the public and even less with the staff who would be affected by it.
> 
> With regards to "the collective police memory is that they were used and then shafted" - that has been the collective police memory since 1829.




I'm not sure about that, an aquaintance of mine was a Au Pair for a retired Police  Superintendant in Sheffield, she said he took great pleasure in showing visitors, his 'war trophies' and his photographs from Orgreave.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2019)

treelover said:


> I'm not sure about that, an aquaintance of mine was a Au Pair for a retired Police  Superintendant in Sheffield, she said he took great pleasure in showing visitors, his 'war trophies' and his photographs from Orgreave.



Name and address please?

ETA: Having said that, Anne Scargill has some cracking pictures on her lounge wall!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 20, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They were long term, deep cover types and so unlikely to risk exposure by openly encouraging violent/aggressive tactics.



I wasn't specifically referring to deep cover types, although as others have pointed out, they were also doing it. I don't think as a tactic it was risking exposure, getting stuck in legitimised them to peers. I am talking about people who I have personally seen involved in goading, throwing missiles etc. that have _somehow_ managed to disappear through police lines. It was happening frequently during Occupy actions/marches/whatevers, I've seen it whilst being kettled at other demos too.


----------



## editor (Apr 20, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

On waterloo bridge now


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

They are still here


----------



## sunnysidedown (Apr 20, 2019)

I ended up in London today so had a walk around the different sites, I thought the setup at MA was quite impressive, it'll be interesting to see what develops next.

And of all the ER symbols I saw around London, I was surprised to see that the plaque on the four horses of the apocalypse at Piccadilly Circus has two etched on it, from 1992.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

Loads of police on South side of bridge. But just walked up steps on north side.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

cops around the lorry


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

The south side of bridge


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 20, 2019)

The lorry is surrounded but protestors are still on top.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Police are working on putting up a ladder to get protestors off roof of lorry.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Police working on putting ropes on lorry


----------



## souljacker (Apr 21, 2019)

Wasn't there people chained to the truck? Gramsci


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 21, 2019)

Police cleared one of the blocks at parliament sq this evening.  It took 2 hours to cut 7 people our of lock on tubes 
And now everyone back again

People in Lock ons on the floor,  circled by police,   circled by about 5 circles of people include ing passers by. Singing.   

It was a very ritualistic arest.	

It did me in and my daughter's made me go back to hers for sleep 

Inductions today were packed


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

souljacker said:


> Wasn't there people chained to the truck? Gramsci



They have gone. People on roof.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 21, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Police cleared one of the blocks at parliament sq this evening.  It took 2 hours to cut 7 people our of lock on tubes
> And now everyone back again
> 
> People in Lock ons on the floor,  circled by police,   circled by about 5 circles of people include ing passers by. Singing.
> ...




Big hugs and love to you M. Self care, re-energise etc.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Protestors on top of lorry. Police taking long time to get them off.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Looks like police are not going to arrest more people at this time. They are just working on the lorry.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## newtoprotest (Apr 21, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Looks like police are not going to arrest more people at this time. They are just working on the lorry.



Thanks for keeping us up to date.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Cheering the protestors on the van


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Police cut free and bring down first protestor


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## editor (Apr 21, 2019)

Big up everyone who has got involved and supported this.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

So far over two hours to get one protestor off roof of lorry.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Just heard Oxford circus retaken by protestors.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Last protestor taken off lorry wrapped in plastic covering


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

People sleeping on the bridge


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)




----------



## kenny g (Apr 21, 2019)

Thank you for the photo's Gramsci.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 21, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> View attachment 168511



Loving the correct apostrophe use. If they achieve any other objective at this point it's just bonus material


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2019)

Waterloo Bridge this morning? Oxford Circus?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2019)

Waterloo Bridge still blocked Traffic status updates
Oxford Circus open Traffic status updates


----------



## newbie (Apr 21, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Waterloo Bridge this morning? Oxford Circus?


from the south the bridge appears cleared but there's no traffic.  Traffic at OC.

there are last 24 hours/30 days slideshows on those webcams


----------



## TopCat (Apr 21, 2019)

Ped access to bridge clearly still available.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 21, 2019)

Walking over waterloo bridge in the middle of the road with the XR stuff sprawling over half of it and just seeing a clear example how city space could be reconfigured, used differently, shifted away from mainly being for private transport, made accessible for everyone's use... thats definitely a vision that will stay with me the rest of my life. Really really powerful and inspiring. 

Friday night (Ive left now) they were playing Bonobo and some dude did some great freestyling too, was seriously impressive.


----------



## agricola (Apr 21, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Walking over waterloo bridge in the middle of the road with the XR stuff sprawling over half of it and just seeing a clear example how city space could be reconfigured, used differently, shifted away from mainly being for private transport, made accessible for everyone's use... thats definitely a vision that will stay with me the rest of my life. Really really powerful and inspiring.
> 
> Friday night (Ive left now) they were playing Bonobo and some dude did some great freestyling too, was seriously impressive.



Indeed.  On the Sunday when they close all the roads for the bike race, London is a beautiful place.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

Amazed by this headline - took me a while to even parse it, thinking I'd made a mistake somewhere:

Stop your unlawful protests or go home.



I can't even figure out how people are going to unlawfully protest from home.


----------



## LDC (Apr 21, 2019)

Rumour has it that XR has caused some panic in Greenpeace (loss of revenue and credibility) and they're trying to start a new department to try and enclose/control/re-direct some of the energy back into their machine...


----------



## Flavour (Apr 21, 2019)

Fucking Greenpeace. How present are well-known NGOs and other "left" organizations aside from XR itself on the ground?


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

Why did the XR protester cross the road?

She had superglued herself to the chicken.

I'm pretty impressed with the efforts so far, but a recent Fb post from a very enthusiastic activist mate that was expressing shock at a very small act of police violence is giving me some concerns about a kind of middle class naivety.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Apr 21, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Walking over waterloo bridge in the middle of the road with the XR stuff sprawling over half of it and just seeing a clear example how city space could be reconfigured, used differently, shifted away from mainly being for private transport, made accessible for everyone's use... thats definitely a vision that will stay with me the rest of my life. Really really powerful and inspiring.
> 
> Friday night (Ive left now) they were playing Bonobo and some dude did some great freestyling too, was seriously impressive.



I walked over Waterloo bridge a couple of times yesterday, I don't get to London much these days but the enjoyment of walking around in places without the constant distraction of traffic cheered me up no end. I ended up walking from WB over to Parliament square then through Green Park and up to Marble Arch, tehn back along Oxford Street. It was only when I got past Oxford Circus towards Centre Point that the spell wore off and I nearly got ran over 

Fairplay to the ER lot though. I've a few issues with what they're about/not about politically, and I'm currently reading Cohn's Pursuit of the Millennium which is adding a bit of colour to our current times for me, but there's no denying these are spaces opened for everyone to enjoy.


----------



## editor (Apr 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> Why did the XR protester cross the road?
> 
> She had superglued herself to the chicken.
> 
> I'm pretty impressed with the efforts so far, but a recent Fb post from a very enthusiastic activist mate that was expressing shock at a very small act of police violence is giving me some concerns about a kind of middle class naivety.


What's wrong with a bit of naivety? At least they've got off their arses.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 21, 2019)

Parliament  Square is being cleared


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2019)

Oxford Street is now back to its normal pedestrian-dodging miserable self. For a few days there it was quite pleasant, if only between Marble Arch and OC. Traffic is still much less though.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

editor said:


> What's wrong with a bit of naivety? At least they've got off their arses.



A bit of naivety among the youngsters, fair enough, we all expect that, and it's great having people on board who haven't had their expectations of what is possible ground down years of TINA and business-as-usual.

Being in your forties, a well-read, resourceful and intelligent adult,  and yet being surprised at the beginnings of a little light defence of capital by the police, however, is a sign of the kinds of weaknesses that many posters on this thread have commented about.

I’m talking about a chap who was locked to the boat for part of yesterday.  Not someone with a very tangential involvement.

I can only see three outcomes for them, they will encounter resistance and become smaller, harder and stronger, they will dissipate, or they will be co-opted.

I'm holding onto my chips for a few more hands, and if it looks like the first path I'll be in the game.  For now, the watchful waiting continues.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Parliament  Square is being cleared



How ru today? 

I admire the work you've put into this to keep it going.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 21, 2019)

.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2019)

Pretty somber at PSq right now. Not a lot of people left. Onlookers are playing slow drums as the cops cut people loose (and also "Perfect Day"). I think someone is still up a tree though.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Parliament  Square is being cleared



As in, people being picked up and carried away?


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think someone is still up a tree though.



Good tactic. 

Not sure how the health and safety clearance situation works with the Met, and the fire brigade won’t be wanting to get involved.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> As in, people being picked up and carried away?


Yes


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Yes



Well, that's good.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2019)

Coming to a halt now apparantly as self-elected leaders try to get negotiations with city hall.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Coming to a halt now apparantly as self-elected leaders try to get negotiations with city hall.



You mean it has been hijacked by people not representing the movement?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 21, 2019)

Sadiq Kahn said...




			
				Sadiq Khan said:
			
		

> ”My message to all protesters today is clear: you must now let London return to business as usual."




In case anyone still thought he was a credible alternative to the other cunts.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2019)

I understand the "yellow vest" fash were down there yesterday having a go at people and shouting and throwing smoke bombs at the cops. Strangely enough I have not heard of any of them being arrested though.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sadiq Kahn said...
> 
> In case anyone still thought he was a credible alternative to the other cunts.



That "business as usual" bit may well come back to bite him.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 21, 2019)

Why would those yellow-vest cunts have a problem with XR?
Assuming they're not off-duty coppers, obv.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> Why would those yellow-vest cunts have a problem with XR?
> Assuming they're not off-duty coppers, obv.


Bit leftie I guess. Although it looks like they moved on to their favourite target, the cops - particularly they hassle any Asian-looking cops, but generally they shout about them being corrupt Muslim-appeasers on Sadiq's payroll who won't bang up terrorists because they're too PC.

They _are_ PC(s) I suppose.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> You mean it has been hijacked by people not representing the movement?



This was always a hierarchical thing tbf.


----------



## LDC (Apr 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> You mean it has been hijacked by people not representing the movement?



No, I think they're the official spokespeople from XR 'committees'. TBH it's internally consistent with their politics and stated aims which are to force/negotiate the State to take more action on climate change.

Their website is really worth spending some time on to get to grips with their structure and politics (although they happily announce they're apolitical). Have a look at this for some idea XR UK Organism – GlassFrog

There's also some interesting stuff about XR people getting paid here Voluntary Living Expenses Transparency


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2019)

treelover said:


> I'm not sure about that, an aquaintance of mine was a Au Pair for a retired Police  Superintendant in Sheffield, she said he took great pleasure in showing visitors, his 'war trophies' and his photographs from Orgreave.


You think agricola's lying?


----------



## kenny g (Apr 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You think agricola's lying?


Do you think he thinks that or are you just trying to cause trouble? Putting the w in anchor as always it seems.


----------



## vanya (Apr 21, 2019)

All That Is Solid ...: Short Notes on Extinction Rebellion



> Is there anything more to be said about Extinction Rebellion? Probably not, except it deserves the left's unequivocal solidarity, encouragement and support. There's little more to be added to takes by Richard Seymour and Lewis Bassett. Not that it's going to stop me from having my two penneth worth.
> 
> 1. Extinction rebellion is both timely and _untimely_. Timely, because it's very much of the moment. David Attenborough and the BBC are spearheading programming on climate change, species loss, and environmental degradation. The public are prepped for it, and young people particularly are concerned - as the magnificent displays of climate school strike marches make clear. But this week's rolling non-violent direct action is untimely too. It's inconvenient for politicians more concerned with Brexit than environmental emergency, it's inconvenient for the hundred global companies responsible for 71% of emissions, and it's inconvenient for a government utterly uninterested in climate change and whose response to Extinction Rebellion is to issue threats. Extinction Rebellion is an embarrassment to our elite betters.
> 
> ...


----------



## RainbowTown (Apr 21, 2019)

Whatever one's thoughts are on XR ( and personally I don't have any strong feelings either way) one thing has becoming clear:  the '_Shangri-L_a' like period  that has been experienced by them in London over the past few days, has now but all run it's course. The bank holiday is over and life for most people now gets back to the grinding normality of getting to work and going about their daily business. Hour after hour. Day in, day out. Week after week. Month after month. So in those coming weeks and months the question  becomes whether a more fractious, intemperate and hostile approach will be taken by this movement if the current passive tactic falls flat on it's face (in the UK, that is). And if that does happen, how will this impact upon XR and their cause (no matter how worthy it seems - or not, as the case may be). It will be quite interesting to see how all this will be played out (and spun) by all the various parties concerned, not least XR themselves.  

As for these excitable yellow vest guys and gals ....well, maybe a few of them need to get themselves a decent lay in order to alleviate some of that pent up frustration and anxiety they seem to be exhibiting.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2019)

^ Perhaps the worst post ever. Vapid, meaningless, doesn't even go to the level of expressing a bad opinion - yet also manages to be offensive on multiple levels with "decent lay".


----------



## RainbowTown (Apr 21, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ^ Perhaps the worst post ever. Vapid, meaningless, doesn't even go to the level of expressing a bad opinion - yet also manages to be offensive on multiple levels with "decent lay".



The irony.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 21, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ^ Perhaps the worst post ever. Vapid, meaningless, doesn't even go to the level of expressing a bad opinion - yet also manages to be offensive on multiple levels with "decent lay".



There's a sentence that starts with 'and' as well.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2019)

RainbowTown said:


> The irony.


No, you made a really bad post. Fix it or amend it or whatever but it was awful.


----------



## agricola (Apr 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You think agricola's lying?



I didn't take treelover's post as saying that I was; all the people I knew who went were PCs at the time and they were all in the Met.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Do you think he thinks that or are you just trying to cause trouble? Putting the w in anchor as always it seems.


no: if I thought he thought that I wouldn't ask him what he thought and if I was trying to cause trouble I'd do something more likely to cause it. You're putting the w in tat once again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2019)

RainbowTown said:


> The bank holiday is over and life for most people now gets back to the grinding normality of getting to work and going about their daily business.Hour after hour. Day in, day out. Week after week. Month after month. So in those coming weeks and months the question  becomes whether a more fractious, intemperate and hostile approach will be taken by this movement if the current passive tactic falls flat on it's face (in the UK, that is). And if that does happen, how will this impact upon XR and their cause (no matter how worthy it seems - or not, as the case may be). It will be quite interesting to see how all this will be played out (and spun) by all the various parties concerned, not least XR themselves.
> 
> As for these excitable yellow vest guys and gals ....well, maybe a few of them need to get themselves a decent lay in order to alleviate some of that pent up frustration and anxiety they seem to be exhibiting.


You know there's a bank holiday tomorrow, right?


----------



## RainbowTown (Apr 21, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, you made a really bad post. Fix it or amend it or whatever but it was awful.



In your opinion. You may not like it, think it rubbish. fair enough.  I thought it was a pretty fair and objective kind of post. You (and maybe others) didn't. Obviously. I personally thought your response,too, was a little unmerited, but that's what you thought, so that's OK in my book. Ditto the albeit crudish attempt at 'humour'. However, I do think it slightly OTT to describe the "decent lay" jibe as 'offensive'.  But you are the admimistrator, so obviously if these are the guidelines to follow.




Pickman's model said:


> You know there's a bank holiday tomorrow, right?



Lol. Yes you are right. Though not for all. Some people do have to work on bank holidays.




SpookyFrank said:


> There's a sentence that starts with 'and' as well.



Sentences can start and begin with conjunctions.

" It's a widespread belief - with no historical or grammatical foundation - that it is an error to begin a sentence with a conjunction such as and, but or so. In fact, a substantial percentage (often as many as 10%) of the sentences in first-rate writing begin with conjunctions."


----------



## kenny g (Apr 21, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if I was trying to cause trouble I'd do something more likely to cause it.


Like what?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

I've been looking at the XR website.

Also assessing my personal experience of the demo.

Its not democratic in sense of elected officials. As in community organisation or political party. It grew out of smaller groups. XR is attempt at mass mobilisation.

To me the internal democracy still belongs to that of smaller pressure groups. You join to achieve a certain object. Stop fracking in you area for example. If you don't agree with objectives you don't join.

XR idealogues like Hallam want to build a mass movement. Building a mass movement that is seeking change that will affect everyone. XR is international. This is a completely different level to say a road protest. Where in one locality a Tory could support a Swampie chaining himself to a tree.

XR founders argue the XR rebellion is beyond left and right politics.

The internal democracy of XR is like that of a single issue campaign. But they are trying to build mass movement. With a politics that is beyond left and right.

From what I've read what they want is mass NVA to force a government to adopt as enshrined in law Zero Carbon by 2025. Then, as elected government can't be trusted, government must also set up an "Assembly". This assembly will be like doing jury service. Random selection of citizens. This assembly will be given examples of how to achieve zero carbon by 2025 and will choose what they think is best. Elected government will be bypassed.

This reflects internal democracy in the XR movement. As long as you hold to the principles of the movement , whether you are elected or not is not not important. In XR terms its not representative democracy. Its all people in the movement working to agreed mandates.

The problem comes if XR achieve there aims. I don't think everyone will be that happy about the drastic measures required to move to zero carbon. XR people's assembly idea is top down.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 21, 2019)

RainbowTown said:


> Sentences can start and begin with conjunctions



But why?


----------



## Callie (Apr 21, 2019)

RainbowTown said:
			
		

> lol.yes you are right. Though not for all. Some people do have to work on bank holidays.


But it's still a bank holiday


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Like what?


Like what you're doing


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I've been looking at the XR website.
> 
> Also assessing my personal experience of the demo.
> 
> ...


The problem comes when nothing happens, when the objectives aren't met, and how people deal with that - whether xr remains together or it splits


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 21, 2019)

Massive Attack currently playing Marble Arch. What the fuck??!


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 21, 2019)

A few observations on my time on Waterloo Bridge last night. ( see my photos above).

This was an uplifting experience. This was ordinary XR people in action.

I had realised they were having problems last night so went up there. Got there by 11pm. South side of bridge blocked so went over Blackfriars to the North Side and got up the steps there.

XR on bridge told me that Police had blocked both ends for two hours. Stopping water supplies coming in.  This was kettling. For legal reasons as this was peaceful protest they had to stop this. The Met can't kettle peaceful protest. Reason why I managed to get in on North end of bridge.

Once on the bridge saw that protestors still there. The lorry was surrounded by police. They had got the people chained to bottom of truck off but not the two on roof.

Took four hours to get them off the roof of the lorry. The Police got specialist team in.

This was all watched by the hawk eyed legal observers. They were taking notes and watching if the police were working humanely and safely.

Looked to me that the specialist poice they used had worked on road protests.

They had all the equipment. Took four hours as it looked to me like a senior cop had to ok every move.

I was really impressed by the voluntary legal observers. Had chat with one. This isnt glamourous job. But in situations like this all important.

The other people on the bridge were giving vocal support to the two guys chained to roof of the lorry.

Music was important part of all this. Several guys were leading songs giving support to the people on top of the lorry.

It was all very peaceful and self disciplined. Anyone getting to argumentative with cops was told to back off.

Whatever people think of NVA what I saw on Waterloo Bridge was very good example of how self disciplined XR protestors are. No leaders telling them what to do at 1am in morning when mainstream media were tucked up in bed.

I found the whole experience heartwarming and moving. The care shown to the guys on the roof off of the lorry was moving.

I think even the cops found it disconcerting.

In the case of London and this country NVA imo works.

It also appears to me to be genuinely held by XR rank and file. Not imposed reluctantly on them from above.

I know it can appear as hippy. But the young people I saw - for them hippies are ancient history.

So from my experience last night I think there is a lot to be said for the leading lights of XR strategy.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 21, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> A few observations on my time on Waterloo Bridge last night. ( see my photos above).
> 
> This was an uplifting experience. This was ordinary XR people in action.



Have to agree. I have always been deeply suspicious of NVDA but what I have seen over the past few days has truly moved. Brought tears to my eyes at points. Not sure where it leads but what it has done over the past few days speaks for itself.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 21, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> A few observations on my time on Waterloo Bridge last night. ( see my photos above).
> 
> This was an uplifting experience. This was ordinary XR people in action.
> 
> ...


This reflects what I've seen this week in Parliament Square 

Gramsci thank you for your informative posts and photos this week and for your support on the ground.	Having people turn up to offer support during arrests has been incredible


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 22, 2019)

Bit gutted that both Parliament Square & Waterloo Bridge have been cleared, but it had to happen at some point, somewhat surprised it took as long as it did, so well done to all involved.

It has certainly grabbed the headlines, and seems to have got people talking about climate change, IME it's been interesting that whilst most people I've seen over the last few days were aware of climate change, a lot were not aware of just how bad things are getting & how urgent further action is required to limit the impact. There's a lot more people well-informed now than before, which can only be good.

But, as an exercise in getting politicians to step-up and actually do more, I am not sure it will have much, if any, impact. 

The UK is actually doing a lot more than many countries, but needs to do more, however our impact on the environment is tiny compared to the likes of China and the continued clearing of the rain forests, and I struggle to see how pressure is likely to be brought on other countries to take action.

And, what next for Extinction Rebellion? This has been a remarkable protest, that took the authorities by surprise, but the cops have now worked out their tactics, and I doubt similar protests will be allowed to drag-on for so long. I hope Extinction Rebellion hasn't reached it's peak, I hope they find ways of keeping the pressure on, just not sure how they will.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I hope Extinction Rebellion hasn't reached it's peak, I hope they find ways of keeping the pressure on, just not sure how they will.



I think they'll have a few more tricks up their sleeves.
Also, I think having got the police to haul them all off on a Bank Holiday weekend could be considered something of a victory.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I think they'll have a few more tricks up their sleeves.



I am sure they have, just not sure anything will top the action of this last week, it was a class act, and it's going to be very hard to trump that.

Mind you, their crowd funding page has almost reached £350k now, so they have a decent war chest!


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 22, 2019)

I think it's really showed up the lack of ambition/capacity of many left climate activists, who like many activists have somewhat self-ghetto-ised with their political jargon* and their tactics. I've been frustrated with the attack on XR's tactics from left activists, when really their tactics have been their great success, whatever theoretical critiques you might have of them.

The main issue I have with XR at this point - apart from the naive positions on how power works - is that it doesn't feel like the leadership is really accountable. This leaves them vulnerable to (a) stupid tactical/strategic decisions and (b) their leaders launching themselves into positions of influence while the base is left out of the picture. My feeling is that unaccountable power is likely to end badly, and over the long term will almost certainly end badly.

*If you want an example of what I mean by this, compare the slogan 'Capitalism is crisis' with the slogan 'Rebel for life', in particular compare which of them is more legible to a non-initiate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I think it's really showed up the lack of ambition/capacity of many left climate activists, who like many activists have somewhat self-ghetto-ised with their political jargon* and their tactics. I've been frustrated with the attack on XR's tactics from left activists, when really their tactics have been their great success, whatever theoretical critiques you might have of them.
> 
> The main issue I have with XR at this point - apart from the naive positions on how power works - is that it doesn't feel like the leadership is really accountable. This leaves them vulnerable to (a) stupid tactical/strategic decisions and (b) their leaders launching themselves into positions of influence while the base is left out of the picture. My feeling is that unaccountable power is likely to end badly, and over the long term will almost certainly end badly.
> 
> *If you want an example of what I mean by this, compare the slogan 'Capitalism is crisis' with the slogan 'Rebel for life', in particular compare which of them is more legible to a non-initiate.


Tbh we've only seen a couple of variations on the get lots of people together theme, get lots of people together and march, and get lots of people together and block stuff. As for strategy it'd be more generous to flit over that than examine it. The notion, as per reports, that xr believe the government might enter into negotiations when tbh the state's not really flexed its muscles is ludicrous. I don't know what they hope to do next but I suspect there'll be a division at some point between those who see a continuation of nvda as the way to go and those more open to a diversity of tactics


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh we've only seen a couple of variations on the get lots of people together theme, get lots of people together and march, and get lots of people together and block stuff. As for strategy it'd be more generous to flit over that than examine it. The notion, as per reports, that xr believe the government might enter into negotiations when tbh the state's not really flexed its muscles is ludicrous. I don't know what they hope to do next but I suspect there'll be a division at some point between those who see a continuation of nvda as the way to go and those more open to a diversity of tactics



I guess, like me, you suspect this division may occur shortly after their first experience of truncheons.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

The questions raised by Cupid stunt are important. My suggestion would be that the main thing is to globalise this movement as much as possible - which is happening to a certain extent, but largely in the “developed” economies. It must become a movement where those in the front line of climate catastrophe - chiefly in Africa, Asia and South America, but also in the vulnerable and impoverished parts of the “West” begin to have the loudest voices. 

I would say that growing the climate strikes (along with serious, widespread direct action on those days) is one of the key ways forward. So, the Fridays For The Future progressively broadening out - and this is an ask to the organised labour movement in particular - as lead ins to a global wave of action on *May 24th *and then a massive united push for an effective global climate strike on *September 27th* with accompanying mass action. This would also have the effect of keeping the supposed XR leadership in its place - with focus on the real tasks - generalisation and organisation rather than negotiation from a position of weakness. Actions so far are symbolic. They need to start having a real economic effect and put the question of who has power - and how. No question that this is a big task, too big for the small forces grouped around XR alone.


----------



## LDC (Apr 22, 2019)

The limits of any movement are going to be a key area for battles as well. If a movement against climate change expands, which it'll have to do if it's going to achieve anything significant, are ER hoping to be the sole umbrella for this activity or will they accept others working in a similar direction but in different ways? (Thinking UK specific here.)


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The limits of any movement are going to be a key area for battles as well. If a movement against climate change expands, which it'll have to do if it's going to achieve anything significant, are ER hoping to be the sole umbrella for this activity or will they accept others working in a similar direction but in different ways? (Thinking UK specific here.)



Their current structure suggests the latter.  They don't seem to be possessive in that sense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> It must become a movement where those in the front line of climate catastrophe - chiefly in Africa, Asia and South America, but also in the vulnerable and impoverished parts of the “West” begin to have the loudest voices.


the very people whose voices have always been most successfully muffled. hell, when people in louisiana and florida - whose land is sinking under water - have difficulty being heard, what hope for the arctic peoples etc?


----------



## newbie (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> I would say that growing the climate strikes (along with serious, widespread direct action on those days) is one of the key ways forward.


What's that going to achieve?  Stunts with no real purpose other than publicity can be very effective without producing any tangible change to anything.  

Government must tell the truth, must act now and must set up and be led by a Citizens Assembly.  Frankly May could give in to all that and nothing much would change.  Well, pretend to give in and pass the detail to spin doctors, professional politicians and civil servants, who will dot the i's, cross the t's and bury the whole thing in fudge.

It'd not like the road or fracking protests where there's a distinct outcome: something is either built or stopped.  Requesting government should do a bit more of what it's already doing is less clear cut. 

I'm afraid I imagine conversation in 2030:
_do you remember XR, kipping on the bridge, dancing and chalking pictures, all those fabulous people bringing food, talking to tourists, then locking on and being carted away to Bromley?
Yeah, it was fantastic... did anything come of those protests?
er, dunno, can't remember... but we held the bridge for days!_


----------



## sunnysidedown (Apr 22, 2019)

I see the XR official twitter account is retweeting some XR Business bollocks that has some supporters of it calling themselves climate capitalists.

So a few splits could coming up then.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

newbie said:


> What's that going to achieve?  Stunts with no real purpose other than publicity can be very effective without producing any tangible change to anything.
> 
> Government must tell the truth, must act now and must set up and be led by a Citizens Assembly.  Frankly May could give in to all that and nothing much would change.  Well, pretend to give in and pass the detail to spin doctors, professional politicians and civil servants, who will dot the i's, cross the t's and bury the whole thing in fudge.
> 
> ...



Hey, I’m with you - the ruling class will always co-opt and neutralise demands wherever they can. The point is, as it has always been - though now with renewed urgency and existential significance- the question of class power and capitalism. The ruling class mouthpieces in various parts of the media - say Adam Boulton or Andrew Pierce on Murdoch’s media in the UK - are refreshingly clear. They would not lose sleep over activists being killed and -implicitly- would rather genocide and the end of human civilisation than they give up their privileged position or lifestyle.  I predict that this will become increasingly the case for larger sections of our rulers as things get worse - the Katie Hopkins “let them drown in the Med” approach to refugees and the paramilitaries accosting migrants in behalf of trump on the Southern US border are simply precursors to genocide - canaries in the coal mine.

It is a good sign that people such as the Green Anticapitalist Front (GAF) in UK and the Symbiosis group (involving Black Socialists, DSA Libertarian Socialists and others in the US) are starting to get a hearing, and even some of the mainstream NGOs such as Friends of The Earth are at least adapting their rhetoric to be specifically anticapitalist. 

So, from where we are, how do we get to a position where large sections of the international working class see the question of confronting the power of the capitalist system, the oligarchs, their security and propaganda/control systems as an existential one that we must act on collectively? 

A first step is for activists in the climate movement to not get carried away by the initial successes in raising demands (of scientists!) but to -  as we do when organising industrially - assess the balance of power, map potential allies and organise/propagandise for the size and shape of a movement that can put - non negotiable - demands,  and act on them whilst moving towards a situation of *dual power*


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> A first step is for activists in the climate movement to not get carried away by the initial successes in raising demands (of scientists!) but to -  as we do when organising industrially - assess the balance of power, map potential allies and organise/propagandise for the size and shape of a movement that can put - non negotiable - demands,  and act on them whilst moving towards a situation of *dual power*


at what point do you envisage these demands being formulated?

not to mention that making even non-negotiable demands of a capitalist body means - implicitly - accepting that the cb can meet those demands. that there is a capitalist answer. do you really think there is a solution to all this through capitalism?


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> at what point do you envisage these demands being formulated?



Well, the scientist’s demands/targets/timescales already exist - and are a large part of why Greta Thunberg has been able to spread her movement - they are stark. But as made clear in the mouthpiece of liberal capitalism that is the Observer/GMG this Sunday, these demands “cannot be met” under the current system. They counter-propose 2050 as a target date, which basically is arguing that due to not being able to “inconvenience” Capital, millions must die and we must risk possible runaway climate change. 

In terms of that, the goals of socialists/communists/anarchists must be the same as ever, but with renewed energy and focus - seek to organise for dual power and the defeat of the capitalist class. These are not new goals!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> But as made clear in the mouthpiece of liberal capitalism that is the Observer/GMG this Sunday, these demands “cannot be met” under the current system.


so what do you feel is the point in putting time and effort into raising non-negotiable demands with a system which cannot meet them?


----------



## newbie (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> So, from where we are, how do we get to a position where large sections of the international working class see the question of confronting the power of the capitalist system, the oligarchs, their security and propaganda/control systems as an existential one that we must act on collectively?



the same way it's been done since people first asked that question, at a guess


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

Nether I, not the climate movement made the demands or set the targets, climate scientists did. The assertion from even the “liberal” mouthpieces of the ruling class that these demands cannot be met in the time required under the present capitalist system means that the question of system change is thrown to the fore in a way that socialists, communists and anarchists have been trying to achieve for the last 150 years.....



Pickman's model said:


> so what do you feel is the point in putting time and effort into raising non-negotiable demands with a system which cannot meet them?


ets


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Nether I, not the climate movement made the demands or set the targets, climate scientists did.


yeh but you talk of putting these demands just a couple of posts up. where is the point in putting these non-negotiable demands to a body which cannot meet them, might not the energy be better expended in other pursuits?


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

In aiming for a situation of dual power the “demands” are simply what needs to happen. The aim is to get to the point where it is stated that “this needs to happen”, the current system refuses, and the power of opposing forces is strong enough to enact the changes itself. It should be made clear from the start, as GAF and Symbiosis do, that this is the way to achieve the aims - it is not about pretending that the system will give away its power with a little pressure from well intentioned activists. At the point where opposing forces assert their power above that of the state,the state/Capital seek to reassert their authority and the opposing power, which has been encouraging disaffection and sedition amongst state forces all along,  seeks the final defeat of the remaining forces loyal to the old regime.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

I'm reminded of an interview I was listening to last night where it was mentioned that during the Bush (senior, I think) administration, so quitre a few years back, a group of CEO's wrote to the President asking that legal measures be instituted to mitigate a coming climate disaster, because in the legal framework as exists (existed), they were powerless to do anything but continue making the situation worse.

It was jokingly referred to as a "stop us before we kill again" plea.  

Nothing was done, obviously.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

Positive action would be workers’ plans for their industries to be transformed along the lines required for meeting the requirements of both the climate and social justice - along the lines of the Lucas plan massively scaled up.
At community level, the transition movement has already been working along these lines, albeit not in an explicitly revolutionary context.


----------



## newbie (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Positive action would be workers’ plans for their industries to be transformed along the lines required for meeting the requirements of both the climate and social justice - along the lines of the Lucas plan massively scaled up.
> At community level, the transition movement has already been working along these lines, albeit not in an explicitly revolutionary context.


Lucas was in the 1970s, back when the likes of FoE and Greenpeace were not mainstream or establishment friendly but cutting edge radical.  Fundamentally little or nothing has happened since, despite their plan being regularly cited.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> In aiming for a situation of dual power the “demands” are simply what needs to happen. The aim is to get to the point where it is stated that “this needs to happen”, the current system refuses, and the power of opposing forces is strong enough to enact the changes itself. It should be made clear from the start, as GAF and Symbiosis do, that this is the way to achieve the aims - it is not about pretending that the system will give away its power with a little pressure from well intentioned activists. At the point where opposing forces assert their power above that of the state,the state/Capital seek to reassert their authority and the opposing power, which has been encouraging disaffection and sedition amongst state forces all along,  seeks the final defeat of the remaining forces loyal to the old regime.


Those who make a revolution halfway only dig their own graves

And I submit aiming for a position of dual power is only making a revolution halfway


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Those who make a revolution halfway only dig their own graves
> 
> And I submit aiming for a position of dual power is only making a revolution halfway


As I understand it, aiming for dual power is not aiming for half a revolution, but making explicit the organisation (as the IWW and Syndicalists did in their day and to this day) that is required *before* the revolutionary overthrow of Capital if we are to have workers’ power rather than party dictatorship “on behalf of” the working class, as in the Leninist tradition. It is a precondition, not an end point.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Those who make a revolution halfway only dig their own graves
> And I submit aiming for a position of dual power is only making a revolution halfway



I think the first stumbling block will be well before anything involving the dynamics of revolutions, and will simply be that the current system is by nature incapable of dealing with the issue.

It's the same basic issue that the Occupy movement ran into.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> As I understand it, aiming for dual power is not aiming for half a revolution, but making explicit the organisation (as the IWW and Syndicalists did in their day and to this day) that is required *before* the revolutionary overthrow of Capital if we are to have workers’ power rather than party dictatorship “on behalf of” the working class, as in the Leninist tradition. It is a precondition, not an end point.


yes i entirely understand where dual power stands. however, by aiming for a position of dual power (a phrase you've used several times, so obviously not one poor choice of words) you are clearly not preparing for the seizure of power. i don't understand why you're so fixated on 'aiming for a situation of dual power' and not 'aiming for the overthrow of the state' or '... of capitalism' or whatnot.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I think the first stumbling block will be well before anything involving the dynamics of revolutions, and will simply be that the current system is by nature incapable of dealing with the issue.



Well, for a lot of us, that is less a stumbling block than a starting pistol shot and core assumption......

As Pickmans says, it is about what constitutes positive action and how that relates to the “climate movement “ as it stands.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yes i entirely understand where dual power stands. however, by aiming for a position of dual power (a phrase you've used several times, so obviously not one poor choice of words) you are clearly not preparing for the seizure of power. i don't understand why you're so fixated on 'aiming for a situation of dual power' and not 'aiming for the overthrow of the state' or '... of capitalism' or whatnot.



It may be just semantics, but unfortunately talking in terms of overthrow and seizing power conjures the impression of Party dictatorship for far too many, especially amongst those we need as allies who have experienced the “actual existing socialism” of Leninist regimes - by talking of building a counterpower, dual power or whatever, the base democratic nature of what is required is more explicit.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> It may be just semantics, but unfortunately talking in terms of overthrow and seizing power conjures the impression of Party dictatorship for far too many, especially amongst those we need as allies who have experienced the “actual existing socialism” of Leninist regimes - by talking of building a counterpower, dual power or whatever, the base democratic nature of what is required is more explicit.



That is a potential source of ammunition for the opposition.

Just going by my personal experience, there seems to be a large number of members who are broadly supportive of capitalism and see this as an issue of communication, and a matter of the right technocratic "fixes".

I'm quite impressed by how quickly they have moved towards NVDA, but when people in reasonably high-level management jobs are involved, I wonder how far they can make it before the cognitive dissonance becomes a problem, and which way they will jump.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> It may be just semantics, but unfortunately talking in terms of overthrow and seizing power conjures the impression of Party dictatorship for far too many, especially amongst those we need as allies who have experienced the “actual existing socialism” of Leninist regimes - by talking of building a counterpower, dual power or whatever, the base democratic nature of what is required is more explicit.


perhaps a new formulation to express what you're actually talking about would be useful then


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> That is a potential source of ammunition for the opposition.
> 
> Just going by my personal experience, there seems to be a large number of members who are broadly supportive of capitalism and see this as an issue of communication, and a matter of the right technocratic "fixes".
> 
> I'm quite impressed by how quickly they have moved towards NVDA, but when people in reasonably high-level management jobs are involved, I wonder how far they can make it before the cognitive dissonance becomes a problem, and which way they will jump.


i've said above i expect xr to split. but it could as easily split between xr and people who are 'professionals' and think the group's going too far as between xr and people who think they're not going far enough.


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2019)

There's no fucking point in those of us with experience of this kinda thing in generations past _not_ raising concerns/criticisms based upon that experience.

It'd be far more wasteful to sit here cheerleading activity and structures that we know have potential issues down the road on the basis of "at least they're doing something". What's the point in that?


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i've said above i expect xr to split. but it could as easily split between xr and people who are 'professionals' and think the group's going too far as between xr and people who think they're not going far enough.



I think it could go in all manner of directions.  The structure of the organisation seems pretty complex.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> There's no fucking point in those of us with experience of this kinda thing in generations past _not_ raising concerns/criticisms based upon that experience.
> 
> It'd be far more wasteful to sit here cheerleading activity and structures that we know have potential issues down the road on the basis of "at least they're doing something". What's the point in that?



Liked, but I wasn't too sure what it was in response to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I think it could go in all manner of directions.  The structure of the organisation seems pretty complex.


not sure about the blood of the children bit


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure about the blood of the children bit



I've no idea what you're talking about, so guess I'm not sure either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I've no idea what you're talking about, so guess I'm not sure either.



XR UK Organism – GlassFrog


----------



## 8ball (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 168669
> XR UK Organism – GlassFrog


----------



## newbie (Apr 22, 2019)

tbh it looks like no-one knows


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 168669
> XR UK Organism – GlassFrog


Baby-eating anarchists?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 22, 2019)

All goin off at the Natural History Museum. Some kind of biblical scene meeting Kubrick's "Eye Wide Shut" thing, perhaps Jodorowsky? You can never have enough street theatre, top stuff.

Was on Waterloo bridge for a while on Friday. Amazing stuff, I couldn't quite believe it really. Like a low key sit down "Reclaim the Streets" with skateboarders and people washing up!


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2019)

Interesting posts here.

I did post up photos of the Green Anti Capitalist Front. They had there own protest separate from XR rebellion. They had protest in the City of London. For non Londoners the "City" is separate entity from the rest of London. It does include all the financial intstitutions like Stock Exchange and Bank of England.

XR rebellion took place outside the City in the "West End" the shopping centre/ museum centre. XR have , surprisingly to me, avoided protests against major financial institutions.

XR protest to me was not trying to avoid issues of capitalism involvement in climate change. Its reformist not revolutionary. But using radical measures adopted from civil rights movements. Which in themselves were reformist. As in USA. Not a criticism but a fact.

An anecdote. On Waterloo Bridge one morning got chatting to one XR rebel. He said he was well off professional so  not "arrestable". Fair enough. We had a chat. I said protest got discussion away from Brexit. That there were other issues like inequality/ so called austerity cuts which had been like climate change pushed to the background.

His reply was that climate change would affect everyone rich/ privileged or poor. Didn't make a difference. So for him XR wasn't about confronting issues like this Tory government. It was more , from his point of view, an existential crisis for humanity as a whole. "Beyond politics" as the XR leaflets said.

XR strategy , unlike GAF, is to blame government/ State inaction. Not overtly blame Capitalism or argue for the overthrow of Capitalism.

Its like Brainaddict  post where CEOs in USA asked government to do more. Some Capitalists know that they are like ferrets in a sack.Competing with each other.  The State does and always has had role in regulating Capitalism.  So its rational response by group of Capitalists who are personally concerned about climate change to ask the State to bring in ground rules on business and climate change.

XR is not against Capitalism. Its position is to get broad base of support.From "arrestable" to people donating funds. A broad spectrum.

Its not about Rebelling against Capitalism as such.

This isn't a criticism. Its my view from what I've seen.

They are a mixed bunch. From all out Vegans, Mother Earth types and middle class professionals who want Green Capitalism.

Its a mistake to see use of NVDA as inherently revolutionary in the sense of overthrowing capitalism.

I don't think they have ever said that.

For the leading lights in XR the one big thing effecting humanity as a whole is climate change. Everything else pales into the background. 

XR view is that we have until 2025 to halt worst effects. So , and this is my reading, its not the particular political set up of individual countries they are concerned about. Its about getting whatever government in power to put in law Zero Carbon by 2025. 

XR view, from what I've seen, is that humanity hasn't the time to argue about individual political structures in separate countries. 

Climate change is the one and only thing now. Its an emergency for humanity.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 22, 2019)

Police trying to take stage at Marble Arch


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Apr 22, 2019)

So much for Cressida Dick telling protestors to all move to the "legal" demo area of Marble Arch.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 22, 2019)

Just seen this posted. What else is happening globally?

Protesters Scale Universal Studios Globe on Earth Day


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2019)

Twat of the day award goes to 



> Shipley's Tory MP Philip Davies said water cannons should be used to get campaigners off the streets...
> 
> Extinction rebellion: Police are out foxed by love bomb in climate change protest


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2019)

Classy stuff. 

 

The cult of Greta Thunberg


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 23, 2019)

Spiked though innit. And by definition, fucking loons.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 23, 2019)

to be fair to brendan o'neil - he does know quite a lot about being a member of some weirdo cult.

As well as his impressive ability  to bravely  sneer, from his position of extreme privilege, at a 16 year old with the gumption, articulation  and passion to spark a  mass global protest movement.


----------



## JimW (Apr 23, 2019)

Kaka Tim said:


> to be fair to brendan o'neil - he does know quite a lot about being a member of some weirdo cult.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2019)

Did they ni k it?


Miss-Shelf said:


> Police trying to take stage at Marble Arch


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Did they ni k it?


they're on their way to parliament, the xr lot


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Did they ni k it?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they're on their way to parliament, the xr lot


What with all their kit?


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2019)

Fair play for persistence


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What with all their kit?


i don't know


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What with all their kit?


there's no stage visible on this video


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2019)

As far as I've heard the camp is still there - not sure for how long though.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Did they ni k it?



The only reports I've seen mentioned they took the sound system, no mention of the stage, although it does seem to be missing from the video Pickman's model posted above.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2019)

I saw a discarded XR flag in the gutter this morning in Reading


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2019)

*Extinction Rebellion: police warn of Parliament Square arrests*
Order targeting the protest is first to explicitly mention organisers could be detained

Extinction Rebellion: police warn of Parliament Square arrests


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2019)

Lots of crowd barriers up in the Square.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

TopCat said:


> *Extinction Rebellion: police warn of Parliament Square arrests*
> Order targeting the protest is first to explicitly mention organisers could be detained
> 
> Extinction Rebellion: police warn of Parliament Square arrests


the gloves are starting to go on


----------



## Libertad (Apr 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the gloves are starting to go on



The epaulettes will start to be taken off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

Libertad said:


> The epaulettes will start to be taken off.


and the so the police polka begins


----------



## TopCat (Apr 23, 2019)

Well the cam shows a big assembly on the square. No attempt to block the roads.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2019)

This is next Saturday


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they're on their way to parliament, the xr lot





TopCat said:


> Did they ni k it?


They took speakers because of a noise violation after 9pm. No arrests (last night)


----------



## smokedout (Apr 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the gloves are starting to go on





> Protesters must clear the area by midnight, police said, and may not gather in Old Palace Yard, a site the group has requested as a permanent protest camp.



So given this was a key demand and has not been met can we assume the pause in disruptive activity is over?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion protests helped improve London air quality, study finds - Air Quality News


----------



## editor (Apr 23, 2019)

From The Times 



> At first glance, Extinction Rebellion look hysterical. They implore the government to do everything it can to make the country carbon-neutral by 2025, an effort that would involve a mobilisation of people and resources larger than any since the Second World War. It would require the state to ration air travel, replace every gas boiler in the land, and borrow vast sums to invest in wind and solar power as well as technologies to capture what remaining carbon we would produce.
> 
> It seems hysterical because it is totally out of whack with the tenor of our national debate on climate change. It is a demand of the sort that would be merited by an immediate and existential threat — Nazi invasion, say — but not by a threat so distant and vague as climate change, which we have come to assume can be addressed by incremental measures, like a ban on the sale of petrol cars in 20 years’ time. But the truth is that the threat of climate change is neither distant nor vague, and it is existential.
> 
> ...


----------



## LDC (Apr 23, 2019)

Is it only me that gets a slight feeling of concern about where this might end up when there's a group/movement saying it's beyond the divisions of left and right and apolitical, and that's demanding that the State enacts sweeping powers and changes to society for our collective good?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 23, 2019)

live stream while police trying to kettle marble arch during a citizen's assembly


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it only me that gets a slight feeling of concern about where this might end up when there's a group/movement saying it's beyond the divisions of left and right and apolitical, and that's demanding that the State enacts sweeping powers and changes to society for our collective good?


Err hold on that's already happening with Brexit. Only neither XR, remainers nor leavers came claim there are no politics involved.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 23, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Err hold on that's already happening with Brexit. Only neither XR, remainers nor leavers came claim there are no politics involved.



That doesn't work. Poor.


----------



## LDC (Apr 23, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Err hold on that's already happening with Brexit. Only neither XR, remainers nor leavers came claim there are no politics involved.



What?


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it only me that gets a slight feeling of concern about where this might end up when there's a group/movement saying it's beyond the divisions of left and right and apolitical, and that's demanding that the State enacts sweeping powers and changes to society for our collective good?



If it has any logic it must demand things that capitalism doesn’t want. Not easy to see how the state does that so it must absorb it, neutralise.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Apr 23, 2019)

Taken from elsewhere, a good source. Share if you can...


***
REQUEST FOR MATERIAL SUPPORT AND HELP

If you can support people who have been arrested on Extinction Rebellion actions in London please

TEXT 07765 145071. 

It is simple:   get to the police station you're assigned to, try to get in if you can.  Take something to while away the time: a book, downloaded film, or work. Don’t assume you’ll have access to WiFi.

Greet the arrested person on their release with some food/drink,  appreciation,  listening ear.  Help them to relay the details of their situation to the back office.  Ask them to tell their story right away, and listen without interruption: this will help you to relate it also it will help them to remember it properly.

Give them money / directions for travel if they're far from home with no cash. 

If you have a car,  access to Uber or a bed for the night,  even better. Many of them are far from home.

You don't have to wait there the whole time:  the idea is to have a person in the police station at all times until the release but you might just do a few hours and pass on to the next person.

It is a *really* worthwhile thing to do to show appreciation for people who are willing to loose a bit of liberty [and all that goes with that] to highlight a crucial issue of survival.

It makes a massive difference to the person arrested to know that they are being looked out for.

Some of us can be in the street, some of us can’t. There are many ways to support this action and be a part of it. Homefront support is essential for the frontline to be effective.

***


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## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Err hold on that's already happening with Brexit. Only neither XR, remainers nor leavers came claim there are no politics involved.



I don't understand.

How is this related to one's views on Brexit?


----------



## newbie (Apr 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> How is this related to one's views on Brexit?


the post seemed clear to me.  Brexit has also been claimed to be '_beyond the divisions of left and right_'.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it only me that gets a slight feeling of concern about where this might end up when there's a group/movement saying it's beyond the divisions of left and right and apolitical, and that's demanding that the State enacts sweeping powers and changes to society for our collective good?



I've said this in previous posts. If not been explicit enough.

Hallam referring to potential supporters as "herd like". Hallam idea of using mass NVDA to circumvent democratic politics. What he said was to use NVDA based on a technocratic reliance on scientists to force governments to put into law Zero Carbon by 2025. As democratic politics is not to be trusted to put it into law then put into law a " people's assembly"

This Peoples Assembly is not democratically voted in. Its made up of people chose by lot. As in jury service. They will work in strict parameters. To judge policies to see if they will bring in zero carbon by 2025. And choose from range of policies put forward by scientific experts. 

This is combination of scientist led ( middle class professionals) plus non democratic quango - named Peoples Assembly. 

XR are quite open about this. They say they want State of Emergency as in wartime. Our UK recent history had this in WW2. When civil liberties where curtailed and rationing was brought in. Post War there was backlash against this.

I see possible scenario where XR achieve there aims and have to use the same Police who arrested them to enforce drastic changes to economy to make UK zero carbon by 2025.

Listened to some "experts" on radio this morning.They said that 2025 was tight timescale. Just possibly feasible but would mean big change to economy and people's lifestyles.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I don't understand.
> 
> How is this related to one's views on Brexit?



I saw similarities in the way this was being characterised above.



> Is it only me that gets a slight feeling of concern about *where this might end up when there's a group/movement saying it's beyond the divisions of left and right* and apolitical, *and that's demanding that the State enacts sweeping powers and changes to society for our collective good?*



A lot of people feel the same level of concern that about both the leave and remain campaigns for not dissimilar reasons.

Of course neither XR nor remain/leave are apolitical...which was also my point.


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## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2019)

newbie said:


> the post seemed clear to me.  Brexit has also been claimed to be '_beyond the divisions of left and right_'.



By whom?

Listening to young person on radio this morning. Said the young people involved had been protesting that there future was threatened by older peoples decisions/ lack of action.

That young person said there was parallel between young people wanting a second vote on Brexit ( its gone on so long that they didn't have vote in referendum first time around) and young people , like the Swedish teenager , protesting against lack of action on climate change.

I definitely got thethe feel visiting the protests that most thought Brexit was bollox.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I saw similarities in the way this was being characterised above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't agree . See my post above.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I don't agree . See my post above.




Yeah I've read that but I am unclear as to why you think what you've said is so different tbh. 



> I definitely got thethe feel visiting the protests that most thought Brexit was bollox.



I am interested in why you think this most think this though.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 23, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Yeah I've read that but I am unclear as to why you think what you've said is so different tbh.
> 
> 
> 
> I am interested in why you think this most think this though.



Its my unscientific feeling from seeing the protest at first hand. When the young person spoke on the radio that was how it appeared on the protests I saw.


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## editor (Apr 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Its my unscientific feeling from seeing the protest at first hand. When the young person spoke on the radio that was how it appeared on the protests I saw.


That's pretty much how I felt and heard anti-Brexit sentiments repeated by people I spoke to.


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## Mr Moose (Apr 24, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> By whom?
> 
> Listening to young person on radio this morning. Said the young people involved had been protesting that there future was threatened by older peoples decisions/ lack of action.
> 
> ...



Almost all the popular versions of Brexit are about more trade, more growth, less fetters, even when they admit the economy may suffer as a result. There is a version of Brexit that is all things to all people, _outside the EU ‘we’ could have our own (better) environmental regulations _but in a no deal scenario it would be all hands to the petrol pump in order to boost economic activity. The activists want international action, so it’s unsurprising they want an EU to demand it from.


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## TopCat (Apr 24, 2019)

it's no real comparison and there are plenty of threads on Brexit.


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## TopCat (Apr 24, 2019)

Is the Marble Arch camp still intact anyone?


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> That's pretty much how I felt and heard anti-Brexit sentiments repeated by people I spoke to.



I joined a local group and can back this up entirely.  The one that was chained to that boat for a bit was increasingly politicised by the Brexit fiasco (was always a Green tbf).

Don’t think he’s so naive about the EU these days, mind.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 24, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Is the Marble Arch camp still intact anyone?


Yes


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> That's pretty much how I felt and heard anti-Brexit sentiments repeated by people I spoke to.


Fair enough. Note I asking rather than arguing against. It makes sense to me that the XR crowd are more likely to be remainers anyway 

My point/ comparison to Brexit was more that whether leave or remain people were having to vote and campaign alongside people across traditional party lines, both campaigns ran with the 'for the good of all' mantra and  are demanding the state 'do something' seismic. Those things made a lot of us uncomfortable/concerned with how Brexit played out la the same way people are about XR doing/saying similar. It feels 'populist'. I don't see how it can possibly be apolitical either.


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## Crispy (Apr 24, 2019)

It's not so much *a*political as *omni*political. It's a universal crisis that overrides day-to-day squabbles about how to run a country. "Put the toys down, and listen."


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## Idaho (Apr 24, 2019)

I suppose we are in transition from labour/tory to something else. Brexit and climate change are the levers that are moving people away from the existing structure. I wonder what it was like when tory/Liberal broke down? I'll go and have a read and see if there are any parallels.


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## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

It's _very _clearly not 'apolitical', but XR are claiming it as such.


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## newbie (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It's _very _clearly not 'apolitical', but XR are claiming it as such.


It's all politics.  It's naive or fraudulent to think or pretend otherwise.

It'll become more naked political the moment anything practical is proposed, since that will necessarily differentially affect voting demographics.

The most obvious practical mechanism is to tax climate destruction- air fares, petrol, plastic...  So the poor can't and the richer can.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2019)

Taxing things is still "playing with toys." There are no tax incentives capable of reducing emissions to zero in ten years. This requires real physical mobilisation as if fighting a war.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I suppose we are in transition from labour/tory to something else. Brexit and climate change are the levers that are moving people away from the existing structure. I wonder what it was like when tory/Liberal broke down? I'll go and have a read and see if there are any parallels.


Which is why in 2017 the combined two party vote was the highest it had been for ages? The idea that Labour/Tory are going to be displaced as the two major UK parties is mad ChUK nonsense.


----------



## newbie (Apr 24, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Taxing things is still "playing with toys." There are no tax incentives capable of reducing emissions to zero in ten years. This requires real physical mobilisation as if fighting a war.


I don't disagree, my point was illustrative.  

What sort of mobilisation do you think could stand a chance of achieving anything substantial or effective?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Apr 24, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> Which is why in 2015 the combined two party vote was the highest it had been for ages? The idea that Labour/Tory are going to be displaced as the two major UK parties is mad ChUK nonsense.



2017. That may not hold though - the Tories aren't likely to get more than 40% again any time soon. 

Not saying Labour/Tories will be replaced mind, just that 2017 may be a bit of an outlier.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 24, 2019)

SpackleFrog said:


> Not saying Labour/Tories will be replaced mind, just that 2017 may be a bit of an outlier.


I agree 2017 probably won't be repeated next time but I do think it is representative. IIRC the 2015 local elections also had the highest dominance of 2 major parties since 1980.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2019)

newbie said:


> I don't disagree, my point was illustrative.
> 
> What sort of mobilisation do you think could stand a chance of achieving anything substantial or effective?



Solar on every building if it'll physically take it. Wind on every hilltop and every shallow shore. A warehouse full of batteries at every business park. Very heavily subsidised electric vehicle sales and very generous scrappage for petrol ones. A whole host of other bans/subsidised replacements. We could have transitioned to this, but dithered for 30 years instead. It will cost trillions.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it only me that gets a slight feeling of concern about where this might end up when there's a group/movement saying it's beyond the divisions of left and right and apolitical, and that's demanding that the State enacts sweeping powers and changes to society for our collective good?



From what I’ve seen/listened to of XR, it did feel rather cult-like.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> From what I’ve seen/listened to of XR, it did feel rather cult-like.


Did you go to the protests? I didn't see a cult. I just saw a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds trying to get together to do something that should have been done decades ago.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2019)

At this point if it really takes an eco-facist boot to save the world, I'll put my face on the ground for stamping.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Solar on every building if it'll physically take it. Wind on every hilltop and every shallow shore. A warehouse full of batteries at every business park. Very heavily subsidised electric vehicle sales and very generous scrappage for petrol ones. A whole host of other bans/subsidised replacements. We could have transitioned to this, but dithered for 30 years instead. It will cost trillions.


More railways, air fuel properly taxed, polluting companies massively fined, a break from the throwaway electronics culture etc.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 24, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Solar on every building if it'll physically take it. Wind on every hilltop and every shallow shore. A warehouse full of batteries at every business park. Very heavily subsidised electric vehicle sales and very generous scrappage for petrol ones. A whole host of other bans/subsidised replacements. We could have transitioned to this, but dithered for 30 years instead. It will cost trillions.



Recently a scheme for around here was announced, which sounds interesting.



> Integrated and innovative solar, battery, electric vehicle, heat pump, and CHP technologies to be deployed in West Sussex by green tech consortium
> 
> Plans for a £40m smart energy hub that will integrate a range of innovative energy management, electric vehicle (EV), heating, and power storage technologies to help cut bills from homes and businesses in West Sussex have been launched by a consortium of eight green tech firms today.
> 
> The smart local energy system (SLES) project, which secured £13m of backing from the government's Industrial Strategy Challenge Fund earlier this month, aims to show how power, heating, and transport technologies can work together to boost efficiency while slashing bills and CO2 emissions.


Plans unveiled for £40m green energy hub to cut bills and CO2 in West Sussex


----------



## Santino (Apr 24, 2019)

Crispy said:


> At this point if it really takes an eco-facist boot to save the world, I'll put my face on the ground for stamping.


Let the Mother of Dragons and Jon Snow kill the undead, and worry about tackling feudalism another time.


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

Crispy said:


> At this point if it really takes an eco-facist boot to save the world, I'll put my face on the ground for stamping.



My point exactly, more than one person has expressed this which is worrying isn't it?


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

To use the oft quoted meme: complaining about these protests is like complaining about your fire alarm going off when your house is on fire at 3 in the morning.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> Did you go to the protests? I didn't see a cult. I just saw a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds trying to get together to do something that should have been done decades ago.



Very good. 

Based on interviews Hallam and some of the other leading members have given.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> My point exactly, more than one person has expressed this which is worrying isn't it?


I don't think he meant it literally, but I'm not seeing any remotely credible alternatives that have risen up to face this devastating crisis. While those on the left and right pick holes and try to push their dogma-laden and often wildly unlikely manifestos to increase their own party membership, Rome (or rather the Earth) is burning.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> To use the oft quoted meme: complaining about these protests is like complaining about your fire alarm going off when your house is on fire at 3 in the morning.



Who is complaining about the protests here? My concern (and I think also LDC’s) was the rhetoric and politics of XR, not the fact that they are protesting. 

You div.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Very good.
> 
> Based on interviews Hallam and some of the other leading members have given.


Perhaps you should have gone down and found out for yourself.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> Perhaps you should have gone down and found out for yourself.



Perhaps you can mind your own business


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Who is complaining about the protests here? My concern (and I think also LDC’s) was the rhetoric and politics of XR, not the fact that they are protesting.
> 
> You div.


There's plenty of people on social media complaining and there's plenty of people finding fault with the whole XR movement.  Nothing wrong with offering criticism of course, but in the face of zero alternatives to a truly global crisis, I'm prepared to give them a bit of latitude while they're in their infancy.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 24, 2019)

Crispy said:


> At this point if it really takes an eco-facist boot to save the world, I'll put my face on the ground for stamping.


Utopia. Utopia (TV Series 2013–2014) - IMDb


----------



## Crispy (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> My point exactly, more than one person has expressed this which is worrying isn't it?


Yes. But "only" in a "oh shit this _could_ lead to decades of authoritarian rule" way and not a "oh shit this will lead to irreparable damage to the ecosystem and large swathes of the world being uninhabitable and billions dying" way.
I'm willing to take the risk


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> There's plenty of people on social media complaining and there's plenty of people finding fault with the whole XR movement.  Nothing wrong with offering criticism of course, but in the face of zero alternatives to a truly global crisis, I'm prepared to give them a bit of latitude while they're in their infancy.



I’d rather be honest with be myself about what I’m seeing than ‘give latitude’ to a political group. 

There’s a lot about XR that other movements could learn from, including their tactics and their ability to handle criticism. The second one being somewhat ironic given your expectation that we give them latitude


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> There’s a lot about XR that other movements could learn from, including their tactics and their ability to handle criticism. The second one being somewhat ironic given your expectation that we give them latitude


You could learn that including a childish personal dig with every post really isn't very clever at all. But I doubt if that's criticism you can handle. "You div"


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> There’s a lot about XR that other movements could learn from, including their tactics and their ability to handle criticism.


yeh we've not seen too much of their tactics beyond 'be excellent to the cops and block roads'. any success their tactics have enjoyed has been down to the police's surprisingly supine attitude, which previous, equally pacific, protests have not had.


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## Miss-Shelf (Apr 24, 2019)

The energy it took to maintain the sites at parliament Sq,  Waterloo bridge and Oxford circus while they were under near constant police threat detracted IMO from the energy needed to grow the movement and debate tactics/ideology

I had hoped this week would allow more reflection but lots of energy is going into maintaining against the police at Marble Arch now who are trying to claim the roads and the stage


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## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Perhaps you can mind your own business




this will end well


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> The energy it took to maintain the sites at parliament Sq,  Waterloo bridge and Oxford circus while they were under near constant poluce threat detracted IMO from the energy needed to grow the movement and debate tactics/ideology
> 
> I had hoped this week would allow more reflection but lots of energy is going into maintaining against the police at Marble Arch now who are trying to claim the roads and the stage


the stage? sure the stage wasn't there yesterday


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

.


----------



## chilango (Apr 24, 2019)

...and, again, remember many of us here who are critical of XR have been "shouting fire" for 25 years or more.


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## Miss-Shelf (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the stage? sure the stage wasn't there yesterday


Stage truck wasn't taken last night afaik


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

XR has obviously caught a moment and catalyzed something significant. But I'm interested in where it could (and should) go from here.


----------



## chilango (Apr 24, 2019)

To recap.

I have no problem at all with causing disruption. 

More disruption please!

I have a problem with:


the idea of "arrestables" and "non-arrestables" reproducing the hierachies of activism present in Greenpeace or the latter days of the 90s eco-protests.
the whole "the cops are on our side" nonsense. Sure, you don't need to go full ACAB, but you be "nice" to them whilst recognising their role in the system.
the leadership - its all a bit shadowy. some are getting paid? who? why? what processes of accountability are there?
the strategy of "get enough people arrested and they'll listen to us"
the belief that that they can get capital on board 
their beyond left andc right rhetoric

for starters


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> XR has obviously caught a moment and catalyzed something significant. But I'm interested in where it could (and should) go from here.


I think people will have thousands of differing opinions of where it should go from here but right now the pressure seems to be working and getting people interested in the state the world is in.


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

TBH I'm softer on the whole arrestable/non-arrestable thing. While I can see problems I think it at least attempts to address the problem that getting arrested for political activity really isn't a realistic option for most people.

I do have huge problems with their strategy that <arrests = the State listens = the State solves the problem> though.

And the whole citizen's assembly thing seems fucked. 

I do have some sympathy with the idea that this problem is so large it is going to need some level of global/State led and enacted co-ordination to sort it though, so despite myself I can get that bit of what they're saying.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 24, 2019)

This is a rather breathless denunciation, but makes the point that if you thought XR were being secretly anti-capitalist while saying they were apolitical, you'd be wrong: winter oak

You can make the argument that the climate crisis can be resolved within capitalism (I think it would be difficult but not necessarily impossible), but I wonder how some of their participants would react if the XR leadership said that outright.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> This is a rather breathless denunciation, but makes the point that if you thought XR were being secretly anti-capitalist while saying they were apolitical, you'd be wrong: winter oak
> 
> You can make the argument that the climate crisis can be resolved within capitalism (I think it would be difficult but not necessarily impossible), but I wonder how some of their participants would react if the XR leadership said that outright.


tbh i think that the climate crisis has to be largely resolved within capitalism (under a capitalist mode of production) purely on the basis that there's apparently but a decade to stop the shit spiralling out of control and there is no way on earth that you're going to go from capitalism to something else and save the world in that time


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i think that the climate crisis has to be largely resolved within capitalism (under a capitalist mode of production) purely on the basis that there's apparently but a decade to stop the shit spiralling out of control and there is no way on earth that you're going to go from capitalism to something else and save the world in that time



I grudgingly sort-of agree (I think). I guess the devil might well be in the detail... does solving the climate crisis entail the State being more authoritarian in a whole number of areas? If so, does this conflict with and degrade other struggles? Are we seeing the emergence of a movement towards a green capitalist State (as much as is possible anyway)? Where might that leave those of us with different politics?


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

Given that it's about creating infinite growth on a planet with finite resources, there's no question that capitalism is the main driving force of this ecological disaster, but capitalism is a bastardly resilient beast that will say anything to keep the fat profits rolling in (see: Shell). Even if the world was given five years left to live unless capitalism immediately stopped, it would simply carry on with a few on-message PR statements because it's all about short term fucking profits for fucking cunts. 

Sorry. This wasn't a very articulate post.


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Are we seeing the emergence of a movement towards a green capitalist State (as much as is possible anyway)? Where might that leave those of us with different politics?


Absolutely yes is the answer to the first question. Both the green new deal and XR are pushing in that direction. There is some movement in Labour towards the idea of a different type of state, but it definitely doesn't have as much momentum yet.


----------



## editor (Apr 24, 2019)

And in related news: 'Decades of denial': major report finds New Zealand's environment is in serious trouble


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> Given that it's about creating infinite growth on a planet with finite resources, there's no question that capitalism is the main driving force of this ecological disaster, but capitalism is a bastardly resilient beast that will say anything to keep the fat profits rolling in (see: Shell). Even if the world was given five years left to live unless capitalism immediately stopped, it would simply carry on with a few on-message PR statements because it's all about short term fucking profits for fucking cunts.
> 
> Sorry. This wasn't a very articulate post.


it's entirely possible that there will be fat profits made out of climate change, e.g. if there were very thin waterproof white solar cells which could be laid on winter ice in the arctic to reflect a lot of heat while generating electricity which could be sold (if transportation could be sorted out)


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

For sure editor but I don't think it's hard to imagine some _restriction_ of those resources so only those that the State decides 'needs' them happens. And indeed on some level XR are likely to enable that without a better politics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Absolutely yes is the answer to the first question. Both the green new deal and XR are pushing in that direction. There is some movement in Labour towards the idea of a different type of state, but it definitely doesn't have as much momentum yet.


oh very good


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i think that the climate crisis has to be largely resolved within capitalism (under a capitalist mode of production) purely on the basis that there's apparently but a decade to stop the shit spiralling out of control and there is no way on earth that you're going to go from capitalism to something else and save the world in that time



Conversely one might argue that there's no way capitalism, particularly the bloated half-dead version we currently enjoy, is capable of changing tack on the scale required in the time scale required. Capitalism is not capable of accurately accounting for an existential threat, or of putting a vital resource like a functional ecosystem in a separate category from a manufactured product or an hour of human labour. Ultimately capitalism can only comprehend the end of the world in terms of how many cigarette lighters or bottles of shampoo it will cost.

All capitalism has done with climate change so far is to create new markets out of it. Like firefighters turning up at a burning building and just selling marshmallows on sticks to the people gawping at it.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

editor said:


> Even if the world was given five years left to live unless capitalism immediately stopped, it would simply carry on with a few on-message PR statements because it's all about short term fucking profits for fucking cunts...



Although prices would rise across the board so they could pay to build their Space Ark.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Conversely one might argue that there's no way capitalism, particularly the bloated half-dead version we currently enjoy, is capable of changing tack on the scale required in the time scale required. Capitalism is not capable of accurately accounting for an existential threat, or of putting a vital resource like a functional ecosystem in a separate category from a manufactured product or an hour of human labour. Ultimately capitalism can only comprehend the end of the world in terms of how many cigarette lighters or bottles of shampoo it will cost.
> 
> All capitalism has done with climate change so far is to create new markets out of it. Like firefighters turning up at a burning building and just selling marshmallows on sticks to the people gawping at it.


i've no illusions that capitalism's some nimble dancer who can change direction in a trice. but afaics it's do this under capitalism or don't do it at all. it's entirely possible we're all already fucked (or at least our kids / grand-kids are), being as the position's almost certainly worse than we've been told as no one's monitored the effect of shipping on climate change and it's only very recently that people have started to look at nitrous oxide emissions. some threats have been dealt with under capitalism before, eg the cfc ozone layer thing. i realise that the threat from climate change is of some orders of magnitude larger than that but i can't suggest another means of doing it. perhaps you should look back at your marx, "men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past"


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 24, 2019)

chilango said:


> To recap.
> 
> I have no problem at all with causing disruption.
> 
> ...


I can see how it could end up as just cannon fodder geting arrested while your professionals waltz off into the sunset hand in hand with the politicians for a nice chat but I can sort of see  how it could be useful to encourage people with different levels of commitment, responsibilities etc who would wouldn't normally get involved for fear of the repercussions.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Conversely one might argue that there's no way capitalism, _particularly the bloated half-dead version we currently enjoy_...



Fat Elvis Capitalism has a nice ring to it.


----------



## newbie (Apr 24, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Solar on every building if it'll physically take it. Wind on every hilltop and every shallow shore. A warehouse full of batteries at every business park. Very heavily subsidised electric vehicle sales and very generous scrappage for petrol ones. A whole host of other bans/subsidised replacements. We could have transitioned to this, but dithered for 30 years instead. It will cost trillions.


I dunno if this is the right thread. I joined the protests just as I've joined many environmental protests.  But I did so in the knowledge that if there was a sensible practical, realworld solution to this it would have been apparent and implemented already.  In some aspects the science hasn't been ready, in most the political consequences rule out any party or individual making any substantial practical proposals: that is perhaps something where these protests may have some impact.

Full transitioning means stopping the use of gas (we use about 900,000 GWh pa in UK: electricity generating capacity is about 90GW) as well as oil and coal. Domestic consumption of gas outweighs its role in both electricity production and industrial usage so you'll need to also swap out every gas water heater and cooker in the country.  That replacement, alongside electric vehicles, means a huge increase in National Grid carrying capacity.

Oil is used for feedstock for plastics and coal is used for making steel, without both of which (plus energy intensive concrete) none of the proposed changes can happen.  Whether or not there are enough Chinese controlled rare earths for PVs, turbines and batteries to replace all fossil fuels just for this country remains to be seen, but overall capacity for worldwide replacement of fossils seems unlikely.

Zero carbon economy before 2025 looks impossible.  

Your proposals are for limited impact on lifestyle (unlike, eg banning all air travel or private vehicles or wartime-like rationing energy usage).  There will probably be more jobs, not fewer as when coal consumption was so brutally reduced. That bolsters potential political acceptability but pumping that much taxpayer money and more into the economy will inevitably mean arguments made about the lack of national competitiveness compared with countries that don't decarbonise quite so quickly. meanwhile there will also be arguments about countries or regions that have yet to fully realise the development potential of a carbon economy being expected to invest huge sums to bypass that for the benefit of all. So this won't be any easier in future than in the past.  That scale of investment will also, as an unintended consequence, cause economic growth which in turn implies increased consumerism, resource depletion and environmental destruction.  

Cynical me thinks there are no practical, short term solutions.  Even if government knew how to do much, much smaller projects like ooh, NHS patient records or Crossrail or Brexit, they simply have neither the expertise nor mandate to make anything on this scale happen.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

8ball said:


> Fat Elvis Capitalism has a nice ring to it.



Elton John Farewell Tour Capitalism perhaps.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Elton John Farewell Tour Capitalism perhaps.


the only things which will survive climate change are cockroaches and cliff richard


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## Idaho (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh we've not seen too much of their tactics beyond 'be excellent to the cops and block roads'. any success their tactics have enjoyed has been down to the police's surprisingly supine attitude, which previous, equally pacific, protests have not had.


Perhaps with the police it's a perfect storm of: 

existing police discontent with chronic understaffing (a single officer covering a medium sized town); 
social media and video coverage, 
a common ground in the protest (I have heard xr people say that many police have been supportive of the aims), and
Xr deliberately avoiding a them and us dynamic with the police.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

What kind of fuckwit do you have to be to think the police support your aims at the same time as they're carting off your mates by the hundred and chucking them into cells?


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Elton John Farewell Tour Capitalism perhaps.



He'll be fine - he'll be playing Circle Of Life on the captain's deck of the Space Ark as it blasts off from Dubai.


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What kind of fuckwit do you have to be to think the police support your aims at the same time as they're carting off your mates by the hundred and chucking them into cells?



For XR that is their aim!


----------



## teuchter (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I grudgingly sort-of agree (I think). I guess the devil might well be in the detail... does solving the climate crisis entail the State being more authoritarian in a whole number of areas? If so, does this collide and degrade other struggles? Are we seeing the emergence of a movement towards a green capitalist State (as much as is possible anyway)? Where might that leave those of us with different politics?


People will type out endless posts like this on forums like this, and fuss about the politics of movements like XR, and we will slide slowly into climate catastrophe in the meantime. However, the inaction of bookish politico types won't be what prevents anything real being done about climate change, it'll be the lack of suitable international structures to deal with it, and the ambivalence of most of the population of the Western world and their unwillingness to accept change to their lifestyles. Hopefully this post can be quoted back to me in ten years proving me wrong.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 24, 2019)

CNT36 said:


> I can see how it could end up as just cannon fodder geting arrested while your professionals waltz off into the sunset hand in hand with the politicians for a nice chat but I can sort of see  how it could be useful to encourage people with different levels of commitment, responsibilities etc who would wouldn't normally get involved for fear of the repercussions.



To be strong everyone has to be in it together imho, otherwise there is a built-in weakness which can easily be exploited and targeted first.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> For XR that is their aim!



1. Get loads of other people arrested
2. ????????
3. Profit!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

teuchter said:


> People will type out endless posts like this on forums like this, and fuss about the politics of movements like XR, and we will slide slowly into climate catastrophe in the meantime. However, the inaction of bookish politico types won't be what prevents anything real being done about climate change, it'll be the lack of suitable international structures to deal with it, and the ambivalence of most of the population of the Western world and their unwillingness to accept change to their lifestyles. Hopefully this post can be quoted back to me in ten years proving me wrong.



If we've only got a decade or so left to live I don't want to spend it rotting in a cell because some copper-loving 'comrade' threw me under the bus.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> What kind of fuckwit do you have to be to think the police support your aims at the same time as they're carting off your mates by the hundred and chucking them into cells?


The kind of fuckwit who sees things as being more complicated and contradictory than you obviously do.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> To be strong everyone has to be in it together imho, otherwise there is a built-in weakness which can easily be exploited and targeted first.



"Fascism is capitalism in decay."

Lenin


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 24, 2019)

The more I think about it, having "arrestables" is just creating a perfect situation to get more people arrested than there would be otherwise.


----------



## chilango (Apr 24, 2019)

It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> The more I think about it, having "arrestables" is just creating a perfect situation to get more people arrested than there would be otherwise.



The police could counter by only arresting the non-arrestables.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If we've only got a decade or so left to live I don't want to spend it rotting in a cell because some copper-loving 'comrade' threw me under the bus.



We've got plenty more than a decade left to live; it'll not be us who feel the worst of the effects. It'll be following generations and people in other parts of the world.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Perhaps with the police it's a perfect storm of:
> 
> existing police discontent with chronic understaffing (a single officer covering a medium sized town);
> social media and video coverage,
> ...


i met a sergeant out of the tsg who was very much against the poll tax, but i have no doubt that if ordered to crack a skull on a poll tax demo he'd have done it. it matters not a jot whether the cops support the objectives of a campaign, they're not going to jump ship and turn against the state. nor are they going to be to fussed about social media and video coverage - there's been social media and video coverage of all manner of brutality and still you don't see cops convicted of murder and only very rarely of other crimes. they didn't give a fuck about all the filming and tweeting from the climate camp in 2009, and i'm sure other people can think of examples of the same. neither does your number 1 come into play. your chronic understaffing isn't matched by what it says on every met police vehicle - they are _recruiting_ 3,000 officers. what's happening is more likely to be a play by senior police officers and police & crime commissioners (mopac in london) for more money.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 24, 2019)

8ball said:


> The police could counter by only arresting the non-arrestables.



Yep, or concentrate on the arrestables. Meaning they don't have to worry about the other 90% kicking off.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> Yep, or concentrate on the arrestables. Meaning they don't have to worry about the other 90% kicking off.



I don't know the proportions tbf.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

teuchter said:


> We've got plenty more than a decade left to live...



Speak for yourself.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 24, 2019)

8ball said:


> I don't know the proportions tbf.



Even if it's 50/50. That's a lot of the crowd they can be confident will provide little  resistance to their plans, if any.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

_Deliberately avoiding a them and us dynamic._ There's already a them and us dynamic, monopoly on the use of force will do that. They're carrying weapons and you're not. You're accountable for your actions, they are not. The only thing being avoided here is rational thought.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> Even if it's 50/50. That's a lot of the crowd they can be confident will provide little  resistance to their plans, if any.



I thought "arrestable" related to the willingness to be arrested as opposed to likely degree of resistance or reaction.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i met a sergeant out of the tsg who was very much against the poll tax, but i have no doubt that if ordered to crack a skull on a poll tax demo he'd have done it. it matters not a jot whether the cops support the objectives of a campaign, they're not going to jump ship and turn against the state. nor are they going to be to fussed about social media and video coverage - there's been social media and video coverage of all manner of brutality and still you don't see cops convicted of murder and only very rarely of other crimes. they didn't give a fuck about all the filming and tweeting from the climate camp in 2009, and i'm sure other people can think of examples of the same. neither does your number 1 come into play. your chronic understaffing isn't matched by what it says on every met police vehicle - they are _recruiting_ 3,000 officers. what's happening is more likely to be a play by senior police officers and police & crime commissioners (mopac in london) for more money.


I'm going to have to mark advertising on police buses as inadmissible/hearsay with regard to police staffing. The government have answered the charge of chronic NHS under staffing by quoting recruitment targets  It's bollocks. 

Your first point is a more reasonable challenge. But the poll tax protests did deteriorate into a them and us with the police (granted that was largely initiated by the police). 

I think the deliberate offering up of arrestable people is a very interesting tactic and plays right into the weaknesses of the police force right now - lack of custody space and a lack of custody staff.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> _Deliberately avoiding a them and us dynamic._ There's already a them and us dynamic, monopoly on the use of force will do that. They're carrying weapons and you're not. You're accountable for your actions, they are not. The only thing being avoided here is rational thought.


This is precisely why very public peacefulness and compliance is such a good tactic. No point trying force as you will get crushed. Anyhow... This is p&p and I've said all I have on the matter. Beyond this there only lies repetition and bun fighting.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 24, 2019)

8ball said:


> I thought "arrestable" related to the willingness to be arrested as opposed to likely degree of resistance or reaction.



Do you think a crowd of people _not_ willing to get arrested for their cause are:

a) More likely to resist/react than those willing to be arrested
b) Less likely to resist/react than those willing to be arrested
c) Equally likely to resist/react than those willing to be arrested


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I'm going to have to mark advertising on police buses as inadmissible/hearsay with regard to police staffing. The government have answered the charge of chronic NHS under staffing by quoting recruitment targets  It's bollocks.


yeh i'm not talking about recruitment targets, you can put that strawman down. i'm talking about your actual recruitment within the local police force, the metropolitan police. perhaps you could support your claim about single cops policing medium-sized towns with an example from the metropolitan police district. but you can't, because you're not big on evidence.



> Your first point is a more reasonable challenge. But the poll tax protests did deteriorate into a them and us with the police (granted that was largely initiated by the police).


the simple point which has so very easily evaded you is it doesn't matter if the police agree with your political campaign, they will twat you nonetheless if that's what they're ordered to do.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> Do you think a crowd of people _not_ willing to get arrested for their cause are:
> 
> a) More likely to resist/react than those willing to be arrested
> b) Less likely to resist/react than those willing to be arrested
> c) Equally likely to resist/react than those willing to be arrested



Have you been observing any of this?
The arrestables have been carried off like tame little lambs for the most part.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> This is precisely why very public peacefulness and compliance is such a good tactic. No point trying force as you will get crushed. Anyhow... This is p&p and I've said all I have on the matter. Beyond this there only lies repetition and bun fighting.


for the terminally stupid IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU'RE PEACEABLE AS THE COPS STRENGTHEN THEIR BATON ARMS ON THE BODIES OF THE NON-VIOLENT


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 24, 2019)

8ball said:


> Have you been observing any of this?
> The arrestables have been carried off like tame little lambs for the most part.



Christ. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's making the job easier for police, taking some fear out of it for them.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> Christ. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's making the job easier for police, taking some fear out of it for them.



You are forgiven, my child.
And don't call me "Christ" in public.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Apr 24, 2019)

8ball said:


> You are forgiven, my child.
> And don't call me "Christ" in public.



Thank you, my Lord.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh i'm not talking about recruitment targets, you can put that strawman down. i'm talking about your actual recruitment within the local police force, the metropolitan police. perhaps you could support your claim about single cops policing medium-sized towns with an example from the metropolitan police district. but you can't, because you're not big on evidence.
> 
> the simple point which has so very easily evaded you is it doesn't matter if the police agree with your political campaign, they will twat you nonetheless if that's what they're ordered to do.


I was not thinking about the metropolitan police, but of an example I heard over the weekend . A single policeman covering all of Redcar and Cleveland. Which, being as you are a shrieky, literal and frankly tiresome person will now announce some form of victory in this discussion.

As for police always cracking heads when told to... I think that this discipline breaks down in certain circumstances.


----------



## Flavour (Apr 24, 2019)

I think it's important to distinguish between "Capitalisms". The capitalism underpinned by parliamentary democracy would certainly not be capable of enacting radical change for fear of losing votes. Capitalism a la Chinese, i.e. with a one-party monopoly over the State, could potentially take radical action without such fears.


----------



## gosub (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I suppose we are in transition from labour/tory to something else. Brexit and climate change are the levers that are moving people away from the existing structure. I wonder what it was like when tory/Liberal broke down? I'll go and have a read and see if there are any parallels.


Think that was more Liberals going if we expand the electorate beyond home owning males they will all vote for us... Only they didn't


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I was not thinking about the metropolitan police, but of an example I heard over the weekend . A single policeman covering all of Redcar and Cleveland. Which, being as you are a shrieky, literal and frankly tiresome person will now announce some form of victory in this discussion.


yeh everyone knows about the paucity of police in some places. but i don't think i'd want to steal theresa may's or amber rudd's victory, after all it's their work wot done it. but it's fucking irrelevant. you're saying the met have been gentle with xr because of policing in redcar and cleveland. 

that's really very fucking stupid. even for you.



> As for police always cracking heads when told to... I think that this discipline breaks down in certain circumstances.


yeh like when the cops killed ian tomlinson, when the man who killed him shouldn't have been out cracking skulls but sat tight in a police van.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh we've not seen too much of their tactics beyond 'be excellent to the cops and block roads'. any success their tactics have enjoyed has been down to the police's surprisingly supine attitude, which previous, equally pacific, protests have not had.


Best comment of thread thus far.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Best comment of thread thus far.



Indeed.  The police's correct role should be cracking the heads of people found to be in possession of plasma screen TVs and curling tongs.  And toning mist.  Just because.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> Christ. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's making the job easier for police, taking some fear out of it for them.



Fear? Fear of what? Six months' gardening leave followed by an acquittal from the IPCC if they accidentally crack someone's skull open?

E2a: If you go on the piggy forums you will see them talking up the risks they take policing protests, talking like they're all off to the fucking Somme tomorrow morning or something. But they must know nothing ever happens to them, they're just winding themselves up to the point where they feel OK about putting the boot into unarmed, peaceful, innocent people.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Fear? Fear of what? Six months' gardening leave followed by by an acquittal from the IPCC if they accidentally crack someone's skull open?



Nothing terrifies coppers like gardening.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I was not thinking about the metropolitan police, but of an example I heard over the weekend . A single policeman covering all of Redcar and Cleveland. Which, being as you are a shrieky, literal and frankly tiresome person will now announce some form of victory in this discussion.
> 
> As for police always cracking heads when told to... I think that this discipline breaks down in certain circumstances.


Do remind when the police refused orders to crack heads? Go back as far as you like?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Do remind when the police refused orders to crack heads? Go back as far as you like?



If you seek the support or approval of the police you are knowingly turning away from the huge swathes of society that are systematically mistreated by the police. It's not a neutral, apolitical thing at all. It's a decision about who you value more, ordinary people or the boot boys of the capitalist system you claim to oppose.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 24, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Do remind when the police refused orders to crack heads? Go back as far as you like?


Googling "police join protesters" brings up lots of stuff from all over the world. It's not that uncommon.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 24, 2019)

If it looks like the cops assigned to a protest might not be up for the desired level of violence, they bring in other cops who will be.

I think the extent to which XR people unquestioningly trust the police is exaggerated though. There are plenty of folk there with extensive experience, and while there might be some friendly tweets and chat, I don't see any _actions_ that indicate trust. They've been able to stay there for a long time after all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Googling "police join protesters" brings up lots of stuff from all over the world. It's not that uncommon.


if it's not so uncommon give us an example from this country


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 24, 2019)

On Policing.

I don't think the policing has been soft. Its thats initially the protest caught the police by surprise.

My night on Waterloo Bridge showed the level of organisation and resources police can manage when put to it. It is not getting truncheons out but its the police showing they can gradually crush dissent.

The use of non violence by XR as a tactic wasn't imo because of naivety. It was because they knew that full on confrontation would be crushed straight away. XR didn't think police would just let them get on with it. If I get it right the tactic was that so many people would be arrested that this would spark off mass civil disobedience. The tactical use of NVDA was partly due to knowing that the State and its instrument the Police have the resources to crush violent dissent.

I think the XR tactic has been partially successful. It hasn't been so successful is sparking mass disobedience.

On the bank holiday weekend it looked to me like the police had got loads of extra police in for the weekend.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> On Policing.
> 
> I don't think the policing has been soft. Its thats initially the protest caught the police by surprise.
> 
> ...


Yeh they got loads of cops in for the weekend but if you were privy to high-level xr discussions I bet you'd have heard them banking on broken heads - which given how previous climate things went would be a reasonable assumption


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

I see Exsnitchion Rebellion have announced that their work is done, the planet is saved and they can all go back to the suburbs. Bravo. Bravo I say.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I see Exsnitchion Rebellion have announced that their work is done, the planet is saved and they can all go back to the suburbs. Bravo. Bravo I say.



No they haven't, you plank.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 24, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> No they haven't, you plank.



Extinction Rebellion declares end to London protests


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 24, 2019)

The actions that were planned to last two weeks are ending after two weeks? Wow sellouts.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 24, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Extinction Rebellion declares end to London protests



Yes, they have announced the end of their planned 2 week demo, a day early. 

They haven't announced that their work is done, nor the rest of the bollocks you posted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

It will be interesting to see if xr use any of their new treasure to pay fines of those prosecuted for offences during the protest


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 24, 2019)

mwgdrwg said:


> The more I think about it, having "arrestables" is just creating a perfect situation to get more people arrested than there would be otherwise.


They were hoping for saturation and overwhelming surely. It's obviously a situation which can  create
 opportunities.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It will be interesting to see if xr use any of their new treasure to pay fines of those prosecuted for offences during the protest


they explicitly stated that this would not be the case.   Although I would hope they give some support to the people on remand currently


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> they explicitly stated that this would not be the case.   Although I would hope they give some support to the people on remand currently


They'll find fewer people up for a nicking if they're abandoned after while the group profits from their sacrifice


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 24, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If it looks like the cops assigned to a protest might not be up for the desired level of violence, they bring in other cops who will be.
> 
> I think the extent to which XR people unquestioningly trust the police is exaggerated though. There are plenty of folk there with extensive experience, and while there might be some friendly tweets and chat, I don't see any _actions_ that indicate trust. They've been able to stay there for a long time after all.


I met very few people who were all over the police.   many were veterans of all sorts of other campaigns and had a lot of police experience.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 24, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> they explicitly stated that this would not be the case.   Although I would hope they give some support to the people on remand currently


I would have thought this would help people be more forthcoming.


----------



## BigTom (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It will be interesting to see if xr use any of their new treasure to pay fines of those prosecuted for offences during the protest



You have to be careful about this because judges can vary the court costs (and fines I think) and they can make you pay more if they believe you are going to have your fines paid by other people, or at least that's what we were told when we talked about fundraising to pay for any fines/costs incurred by the people charged for the fortnum and mason ukuncut action a few years back.
You'd hope that they would find ways to have anyone fined happen to get some generous presents but I don't think they can talk about this openly if they do.

edit: they could also give some of their money to GBC who I assume provided the legal observers and will have done arrest / police station support as well as ongoing post-arrest support.


----------



## LDC (Apr 24, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It will be interesting to see if xr use any of their new treasure to pay fines of those prosecuted for offences during the protest



I can imagine the discussions about what to do with the money being quite difficult.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 24, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I would have thought this would help people be more forthcoming.


Actually, perhaps this is part of the arrestables/unarrestables consideration in terms of personal resources?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 24, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Actually, perhaps this is part of the arrestables/unatrestables consideration in terms of personal resources?


do you mean that this model excludes people without enough £ to cover costs of arrest?  Or do you mean people choose not to be arrested partly because they don't have the money to cover potential costs of arrest?  [guess it's both really]


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 24, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> do you mean that this model excludes people without enough £ to cover costs of arrest?  Or do you mean people choose not to be arrested partly because they don't have the money to cover potential costs of arrest?  [guess it's both really]




The latter was my question/musing that the 'arrestables' chose that role as they knew they have the resources to deal with the fallout, including the financial implications with full awareness that XR would not step in to do so.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If it looks like the cops assigned to a protest might not be up for the desired level of violence, they bring in other cops who will be.
> 
> I think the extent to which XR people unquestioningly trust the police is exaggerated though. There are plenty of folk there with extensive experience, and while there might be some friendly tweets and chat, I don't see any _actions_ that indicate trust. They've been able to stay there for a long time after all.



Going back to my experience on Waterloo Bridge. See post 1020.

What I left out from that post was reaction to XR supporters that night to police action.

There were chants of "whose police are police" and calls to "send out love to the police" whilst the police removed and arrested the people locked onto the lorry.

When after four hours the police got them off and bundled them into police vans there was call to send out love to the police women who helped to do this.

As much as I respect the XR protestors on the ground I found this slightly cringe making.

By all means use NVDA but sending out "love" to the cops?

The cops weren't using truncheons but they were using state sanctified power to crush dissent.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Going back to my experience on Waterloo Bridge. See post 1020.
> 
> What I left out from that post was reaction to XR supporters that night to police action.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to say that I didn't encounter much of this at parliament square.	I saw one person making a banner saying something about being sorry the police were loosing their bank holiday leave.   I tried to get the person to see how this positioned the police in relation to us etc,  but I did see the banner out and about later.  However,  that was only one person.   Most people were behind NVDA which includes civil negotiation at times eg 'please let me through to see the person in the lock on to check that they are ok'	'please don't take all the stuff from this site tent, I'd like to move it so I know where people's things have gone'  etc people.  Many expressed disgust that they'd heard people elsewhere say 'we love you'  to the police.

eta: I've personally disliked having to spend so much time in close proximity to the police last week.   Talking to them to let me do what I needed to do for people being arrested   They're sneaky liars [in uniform] and want to harvest any intel from any conversation with them.  They are not our friends or a force for good.	As much as they were experiencing the freezing nights or the sweltering sunny days,  that's a job they are paid for.   Protesters were experiencing the same without the pay.   At times they tried to intimidate/arrest the first aid,  legal observers and well being people to demoralise the people locked on 
I'm not feeling the love


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 25, 2019)

> Members of Extinction Rebellion have glued themselves to the London Stock Exchange as part of protests against climate change.
> 
> The group, which disrupted hundreds of thousands of commuters in the capital last week, said yesterday that it had decided to end its demonstrations.
> 
> On Thursday morning, two men and five women glued themselves to a wall and to each other.



Extinction Rebellion members glue themselves to London Stock Exchange


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 25, 2019)

And, they are on a DLR train again.



ETA - [The guy on the left] Extinction Rebellion said one of the protesters, named Phil, is 83 years old.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, they are on a DLR train again.



Isn't the point about canaries in mines that they die? Unless these are little birds that have sung for the cops...


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Isn't the point about canaries in mines that they die? Unless these are little birds that have sung for the cops...



Canaries were used as to tell of impending danger. If they stopped singing there was deadly gas about.
The canaries in later years were in a cage that could be isolated and had a small oxygen cylinder to hopefully revive the birds.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Canaries were used as to tell of impending danger. If they stopped singing there was deadly gas about.
> The canaries in later years were in a cage that could be isolated and had a small oxygen cylinder to hopefully revive the birds.


I'd always thought the canaries had come to a sticky end and pleased to learn I was wrong


----------



## tim (Apr 25, 2019)

Still on it, I've just seen them, causing minor delays.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I'd always thought the canaries had come to a sticky end and pleased to learn I was wrong



In the UK in 1986 all canaries were replaced with ‘the electronic nose’
A lot of households on the estate I grew up on had a canary as a pet.


----------



## Santino (Apr 25, 2019)

Is that why they chose Canary Wharf?


----------



## LDC (Apr 25, 2019)

It's all quite 12 Monkeys isn't it? That photo of them all dressed up does have a slight whiff of funny cult about it imo.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2019)

Santino said:


> Is that why they chose Canary Wharf?


One would hope that it's also because of it being a 'banking' zone.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 25, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> One would hope that it's also because of it being a 'banking' zone.



With all the money received by XR recently they may be looking for investment advice?


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 25, 2019)

There's going to be a crunch time for XR  in the aftermath of the London events. 

Questions are being raised in local meetings about how groups relate to "Central", about where the money is and how decisions are made.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> With all the money received by ER recently they may be looking for investment advice?


Yes of course, that's why they are at the stock exchange too


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 25, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes of course, that's why they are at the stock exchange too



Ecologically aware capitalists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> There's going to be a crunch time for XR  in the aftermath of the London events.
> 
> Questions are being raised in local meetings about how groups relate to "Central", about where the money is and how decisions are made.


this could be where it gets messy


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> this could be where it gets messy



It’s amazing how quickly unity dissolves when cash is added to the mix.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s amazing how quickly unity dissolves when cash is added to the mix.


i don't think that's really the case, it dissolves quickly when there's cash and no accountability and a shit decision-making process.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 25, 2019)

Yeah, it's a lot of money, currently at just short of £425k. 

2019 Extinction Rebellion - Choose life & rebel with us.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 168904
> 
> 
> 
> Extinction Rebellion members glue themselves to London Stock Exchange


Shirley it would of been better to put the bigger guys in the middle no?

Have these people never seen a scrum down ?


----------



## maomao (Apr 25, 2019)

I'd much rather be delayed by XR than by the trains just being shit like they normally are.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 25, 2019)

Video showing them getting up on the train.



Fast forward to see the police going up around 1 hr 40 mins later.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> It’s amazing how quickly unity dissolves when cash is added to the mix.


I really don't think that questions being asked about how the funds are being managed automatically equates to a loss of unity. It's normal that people ask for clarity on such things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> In the UK in 1986 all canaries were replaced with ‘the electronic nose’
> A lot of households on the estate I grew up on had a canary as a pet.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> View attachment 168904
> 
> 
> 
> Extinction Rebellion members glue themselves to London Stock Exchange


Everyone just ducked underneath them apparently.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 25, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Everyone just ducked underneath them apparently.



I presume the London Stock Exchange has more than one door, after all they've probably got a few quid.

Nicely symbolic though.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 25, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Everyone just ducked underneath them apparently.



Ducking and diving is a useful skill for stockbrokers.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

Now at upper Thames street. Blocking road.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

Fleet street half hour ago. Protestors glued t   o road outside Goldman sachs


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

Upper Thames street


----------



## Dan U (Apr 25, 2019)

thanks Gramsci Miss-Shelf and others for your 'on the spot' posts over the last week or so


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2019)

i see the evidence gatherers are out


----------



## Dan U (Apr 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i see the evidence gatherers are out
> View attachment 168932



the unfit fit team


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 25, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i see the evidence gatherers are out
> View attachment 168932



Hobby Bobby or proper copper?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Hobby Bobby or proper copper?


the latter


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 25, 2019)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah there is of course provocateurs. The police aren't exactly on good terms with this government so maybe letting it play out more puts increased pressure on the tories?



The tail doesn’t wag the dog.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 25, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Think you might be onto something here. I've also been puzzled by the apparent police tolerance of the protests. People being peaceful has never stopped them being cunts before. Maybe the protests are a bargaining chip with govt at this point. The police just play the game of saying 'we don't have enough resources to stop this' until the govt ups their budget.
> 
> A bit conspiracy-theory maybe, but I simply can't buy the line that the police can't use their usual tactics because the protesters are being peaceful.



It’s more likely than them not obeying orders because they agree with the protest.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2019)




----------



## 8ball (Apr 25, 2019)

Yeah, a few tens of millions of displaced people here and there.  No big deal, right?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 25, 2019)

Yeah, tens of millions of displaced people because of climate change has to be a good thing, well done, plank.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 25, 2019)

This is unfair to her, she does go on to say that population displacement is bad but it needs to be phrased right.



I have no idea about the context of what was said or who said it or how accurate this is, so I'm not going to comment any more than that, but there is a general point that terrible people might also be opposed to climate change on terrible bases and they need to be excluded from day one. White nationalists might well campaign for measures to halt climate change on the basis that it will result in millions of displaced non-white people that no level of Fortress Europe will be able to keep out, and they assume that they will come over here and rape and pillage.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Video showing them getting up on the train.
> 
> 
> 
> Fast forward to see the police going up around 1 hr 40 mins later.



"Members of Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together"

Fuckin'ell I knew it was bad in that London but if two groups of protestors with those names tried to stop people getting to work on the Wirral Line this morning I'm afraid there would be a completely different outcome to them sitting on their arses for 2 hours spouting that sort of shite whilst everyone stood on the platform waiting to get to work. 

I'd love to do a Scouse parody video of it but to be honest it would only last about 3 minutes tops.

It would go like this.

"We're from Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together and we're gluing ourselves to this twain to pwowtest"
"If I'm late getting to work this morning dickhead I'm going to take my wages out of your face"
"But the world is going to die"
"And so are you if I miss my clocking on slot Tarquinia, so what's it going to be you high jacking the next train or me smashing your fucking face in"
"OK guys lets get off this train and let this old Scouse lady carry on to her cleaning job in Liverpool One and we'll try and do the 8.15"
"Tarquinia this is all very confrontational so Terrance has an idea, lets forget about Mersey Rail and protest on the Ferry across the Mersey. We could board at Hamilton Square in Birkenhead? No one expects the Ferry Inquisition"
"Oh my that sounds like a fab thing to do. Extinctionous rebellious what!. Let's stop these Northern people who are ignorant to the suffering world around them from getting to work on the most famous mode of transport in this region"

Later that morning

"This is Granada Reports. We will now take a break from our scheduled service to bring you news of a group of people called Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together who decided to protest in Birkenhead this morning"


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> "Members of Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together"
> 
> Fuckin'ell I knew it was bad in that London but if two groups of protestors with those names tried to stop people getting to work on the Wirral Line this morning I'm afraid there would be a completely different outcome to them sitting on their arses for 2 hours spouting that sort of shite whilst everyone stood on the platform waiting to get to work.
> 
> ...



I'm a Londoner and I didn't have any problem with the protests today.

I don't understand why you say its so bad in London. Please explain.


----------



## Santino (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> "Members of Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together"
> 
> Fuckin'ell I knew it was bad in that London but if two groups of protestors with those names tried to stop people getting to work on the Wirral Line this morning I'm afraid there would be a completely different outcome to them sitting on their arses for 2 hours spouting that sort of shite whilst everyone stood on the platform waiting to get to work.
> 
> ...


Great stuff.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I'm a Londoner and I didn't have any problem with the protests today.
> 
> I don't understand why you say its so bad Inn London. Please explain.


You've answered your own question mate


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> You've answered your own question mate



No I haven't. 

You haven't answered my question.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> "Members of Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together"
> 
> Fuckin'ell I knew it was bad in that London but if two groups of protestors with those names tried to stop people getting to work on the Wirral Line this morning I'm afraid there would be a completely different outcome to them sitting on their arses for 2 hours spouting that sort of shite whilst everyone stood on the platform waiting to get to work.
> 
> ...



BTW if you had been reading this thread you would know that some of the protestors had come from the North. Parliament Square occupation was a lot of people from the North.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> No I haven't.
> 
> You haven't answered my question.


No actually I think you've missed my point which would entail that yes you've would of answered your own question. 

I'll come back and draw you a picture in a bit but I've got clam linguine on the hob currently old chap so don't have the time. x


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> BTW if you had been reading this thread you would know that some of the protestors had come from the North. Parliament Square occupation was a lot of people from the North.


The North never forgets 





We just wouldn't let it stop us getting to fucking work. Now my clams are sweating x


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> No actually I think you've missed my point which would entail that yes you've would of answered your own question.
> 
> I'll come back and draw you a picture in a bit but I've got clam linguine on the hob currently old chap so don't have the time. x



I get it. This is good thread and good discussion. 

Your disrupting it. 

Play your games elsewhere.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> The North never forgets
> 
> 
> 
> ...



IMO this is trolling disruptive behaviour.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I get it. This is good thread and good discussion.
> 
> Your disrupting it.
> 
> Play your games elsewhere.


Jog the fuck on and consider that a good thread and good discussion has more than your opinion to it. Now I must get to my pasta. 

Dickhead


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> IMO this is trolling disruptive behaviour.


Report it then Tarquinia x


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


>



She says "they". As FridgeMagnet says no context.

My experience of XR people on the ground . not the leaders. is that they are the same kind of people who would support migrant rights. 

I do understand in Green politics there is element that is quite reactionary. 

But I don't think the people I've met can be included in that.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Jog the fuck on and consider that a good thread and good discussion has more than your opinion to it. Now I must get to my pasta.
> 
> Dickhead



You are a keyboard warrior. I'm not impressed. Easy to spout this abuse on an internet forum and not face to face.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I do understand in Green politics there is element that is quite reactionary.
> 
> But I don't think the people I've met can be included in that.



Not that simple with a hierarchical organisation with an opaque command structure though is it?


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> "Members of Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together"
> 
> Fuckin'ell I knew it was bad in that London but if two groups of protestors with those names tried to stop people getting to work on the Wirral Line this morning I'm afraid there would be a completely different outcome to them sitting on their arses for 2 hours spouting that sort of shite whilst everyone stood on the platform waiting to get to work.
> 
> ...



...the irony being, low-lying coastal areas like Merseyside and Wirral will be fucked when climate change really kicks in. I'd expect a little more sympathy tbh.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> You are a keyboard warrior. I'm not impressed. Easy to spout this abuse on an internet forum and not face to face.


Are you offering me out


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not that simple with a hierarchical organisation with an opaque command structure though is it?



As I've already posted I have reservations about how democratic it is.

The quote you put up does not say who it was who said this 

I was in Fleet Street today. In City they had more hostile reception. They had there spokespersons there fieliding questions. I do have problems with the Three Demands. 

I can't support a People's Assembly circumventing democratic procedures to help impose a State of Emergency.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> ...the irony being, low-lying coastal areas like Merseyside and Wirral will be fucked when climate change really kicks in. I'd expect a little more sympathy tbh.


Now that's worth considering and a very good point made   I pity the posh folk on the west side on the Wirral even though that's the right side of the wedge. It's major bucks out that way but there will be no beaches at some point, just charity shops. Shame about Moreton and Wallasey though 

I still reckon they would of dragged these dicks off the train to go about their own personal business this morning though. Do you have a view on that?

Now can I have my tea? x


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Are you offering me out



I'm not saying anything. Just saying its easy to be abusive wind up merchant on the internet. 

Its you who is offering wind up remarks that are offering me out. Such as Jog On. I'm sorry Its Jog the Fuck on.

As I said its easy to do that on internet.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Fleet street half hour ago. Protestors glued tView attachment 168929 View attachment 168929 View attachment 168930 o road outside Goldman sachs


I don't know what you look like Gramsci or I would have said hello.   There were a lot of cameras out today including fit


----------



## teqniq (Apr 25, 2019)

I have a friend of Pakistani descent who is getting somewhat exercised over XR on FB over what they perceive as exclusion of BME people by default as were they to be involved in the protests they run the risk of being stripped of their citizenship because of the colour of their skin. Whether this is fanciful or not I really can't say but I did see a video of a couple of mixed-race girls online someplace saying that if it were BME people doing the protesting the gloves would really have come off by now. My friend has also observed that they quote John Locke - a slaveowner (unbeknownst to me up until they pointed it out) on their site.



Declaration of Rebellion - Extinction Rebellion

Now I am not trying to derail or troll this thread but it seems that there may be questions that need addressing.

Big thanks to all the people who have provided pics and info on the protests.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I don't know what you look like Gramsci or I would have said hello.   There were a lot of cameras out today including fit



Fine effort today in the City.



Sorry we didnt meet.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 25, 2019)

Oh there's also this which I saw earlier which is a bit wtf 



I guess at the very least they run a risk of divide and rule by vested interests with this sort of thing. If they wish to raise the issue of mass migration, far better to point out that it is a direct consequence of things like climate change, pollution and resource wars bought on by capital's desire for unlimited expansion and that would just be a starting point.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> I still reckon they would of dragged these dicks off the train to go about their own personal business this morning though. Do you have a view on that?



It's short-sighted at best, at worst it smacks of bullying. _O look students getting in everyone's way, fuckem _- but it's climate change, nobody is going to be exempt from what it brings. It's easy enough to take the piss out of twats blocking trains but none of us will be laughing when cities start to flood every winter and crops fail because of extreme weather events.

It's actually fucking scary 

hope you enjoyed yr tea though .. I had quite a few air miles with mine, and I feel kind of rotten for it.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I'm not saying anything. Just saying its easy to be abusive wind up merchant on the internet.
> 
> Its you who is offering wind up remarks that are offering me out. Such as Jog On. I'm sorry Its Jog the Fuck on.
> 
> As I said its easy to do that on internet.


OK I've had my tea now so I'll spend a bit more time conversing with you.

I don't think a small number of privileged people stopping lots of other people getting to work, providing for their families is a productive way for everyone to address the issue of climate change. My point is that this sort of behaviour would only be accepted in the metropolis and is a joke.

Do you know what the two groups involved in that video are called? Do you think anyone in the rest of the country would take them seriously given the names they are protesting under? Do you think they represent the people who's lives they are disrupting.

One of ER's claims is that the governments of this world close down debate on climate change. ER and people like yourself are doing far worse that that accusing anyone who doesn't agree with the current regime of action as a troll, a keyboard warrior, sheeplike and so on. In fact your suggestion that I wouldn't say the same thing to you in person as I have on here is a classic keyboard warrior trope. Which is why I justifiably think you're a dickhead.  You have acted exactly in the way in which you're accusing me. 

I made a parody joke about the video posted above. I do personally think that these knobs are taking the piss protesting under the names that they are if they want to be taken seriously by the people they are hoping to engage with then why are they hiding behind religion and fanny knitting? That's the same game George and Tony were playing when they started the most recent crusade which is causing most of the problems climate change is enduring. You decided my friend to let the joke fly over your head and also took umbrage to the point I raised and that is that for anywhere other than the metropolis most people wouldn't put up with this shit because living day by day is not a choice to a lot of the people who are being disrupted.

You sound like someone who has the well meaning of a sixth form student but the intellectual concept of a member on the snowflakes knitting cunts together 

I wish you luck with your delusional efforts of bringing about global change because like most of these attempts at social mobilisation you're actually alienating yourselves from the people you need on your side to do it.

Now be careful now when the wake comes


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> It's short-sighted at best, at worst it smacks of bullying. _O look students getting in everyone's way, fuckem _- but it's climate change, nobody is going to be exempt from what it brings. It's easy enough to take the piss out of twats blocking trains but none of us will be laughing when cities start to flood every winter and crops fail because of extreme weather events.
> 
> It's actually fucking scary
> 
> *hope you enjoyed yr tea though .. I had quite a few air miles with mine,* and I feel kind of rotten for it.




Yep I totally agree but Rick never got the rest of the young ones behind his views by calling everyone a fascist even though most of us agreed with those views. 






These lot are making cocks of themselves and are gifting the media and the people who run it with a free swipe at the cause.

I predict that Bono will be on this within a week


----------



## Idaho (Apr 25, 2019)

So what the critics are saying is that although climate change is likely to bring massive poverty, hunger, displacement and death, we should ignore it because these protests aren't curated with the level of cultural and class precision some would like.

We're fucked.


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 25, 2019)

ACG article on XR stuff: Extinction Rebellion notes… – Anarchist Communist Group


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 25, 2019)

It's all so big and apocalyptic and way way more than any one of us can actually deal with, there is a constant temptation to just go_ eh fuck it_. Personally I wish I could and we all would just strike, strike, strike and bring the global economy crashing down with a mass refusal to engage. Aint gonna happen either, but IMO anyone making real efforts to spoil and clog up ''the economy'' to make an important point - even if that inconveniences everyday people of which I am one - I pretty much support 100%.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 25, 2019)

Serge Forward said:


> ACG article on XR stuff: Extinction Rebellion notes… – Anarchist Communist Group





> Ultimately though, this will mean a revolution to get rid of capitalism and replace it with a society based on need not profit and exists in harmony with nature.



Right.. So let's just do that first then


----------



## Serge Forward (Apr 25, 2019)

The clue's in the word "ultimately"


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Idaho said:


> So what the critics are saying is that although climate change is likely to bring massive poverty, hunger, displacement and death, we should ignore it because these protests aren't curated with the level of cultural and class precision some would like.
> 
> We're fucked.


No just stop calling yourself "Members of Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together" in an effort to be taken seriously and find a better way of mobilising a larger proportion of the planet you're trying to save that the number you are currently alienating from it with your current tactics. It's quite simple when you get your head around it.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Easy to spout this abuse on an internet forum and not face to face.



One of the pleasures of getting older I’ve found is how easy it actually is to be verbally abusive face to face.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> OK I've had my tea now so I'll spend a bit more time conversing with you.
> 
> I don't think a small number of privileged people stopping lots of other people getting to work, providing for their families is a productive way for everyone to address the issue of climate change. My point is that this sort of behaviour would only be accepted in the metropolis and is a joke.
> 
> ...




Nope.

I've never asked you out.

You repeated recourse to abuse and stereotypes marks you out as a keyboard warrior. 

Its you using aggrassive asking out tropes like "Jog On". 

You haven't met these protestors in person. They also work and provide for their families. They have taken time off to do this protest. 

I don't see them as all privileged. They are a mixed bunch. 

They also come from all part of the Country to do this protest in the Capital City of UK. 

Your view that this would only be acceptable in the "metropolis" still is something I don't understand. Why? Plenty of people in London aren't that well off and need to get to work.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

MadeInBedlam said:


> One of the pleasures of getting older I’ve found is how easy it actually is to be verbally abusive face to face.



Not for me. 

In fact getting older means for me I have got less abusive face to face. 

I find it shows lack of maturity.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 25, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Right.. So let's just do that first then


Not everyone's a fan but Monbiot has been calling for an end to capitalism and it's something that in the final analysis may well be ultimately be true. Greta Thunberg has called for general strike and it may well be that it will be things like these that effect change. So it's not like these things are outlandish ideas from the periphery of society.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I have a friend of Pakistani descent who is getting somewhat exercised over ER on FB over what they perceive as exclusion of BME people by default as were they to be involved in the protests they run the risk of being stripped of their citizenship because of the colour of their skin. Whether this is fanciful or not I really can't say but I did see a video of a couple of mixed-race girls online someplace saying that if it were BME people doing the protesting the gloves would really have come off by now. My friend has also observed that they quote John Locke - a slaveowner (unbeknownst to me up until they pointed it out) on their site.
> 
> View attachment 168978
> 
> ...



The photos I posted up of the police getting removing protestors from the Truck on Waterloo Bridge didnt clearly show that one the the two people who had glued / locked themselves to the truck was a young black man. 

I didn't mention it at the time but as race has come up I point that out now.


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Nope.
> 
> I've never asked you out.
> 
> ...


Go back to the beginning 

Here's the total sum of your lot today



Now if that picture contained all the people whose lives you have disrupted this week it would look like a genuine protest and not a bunch of divs called "Members of Christian Climate Action and The Snowflakes Knitting Cunts Together" who have served only to disrupt the people's lives who could fill Parliament Square. What have you achieved? What has changed?

Imagine how much change you would bring about if that many people really got behind the cause this week.

They didn't and all you have achieved is dressing up as knobs, calling yourself silly names, actors flying in planes to hijack your little show and a right good hiding in the media.

I'm sorry but there are many more people in this world including myself who care just as much about the planet as you do who have a right to criticise the way in which you have gone about it this week. It's pretty much a joke.

If you can't take the heat step out of the kitchen


----------



## friedaweed (Apr 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Not for me.
> 
> In fact getting older means for me I have got less abusive face to face.
> 
> I find it shows lack of maturity.


Yep. You just hide behind you keyboard now and accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you now a troll x


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Go back to the beginning
> 
> Here's ythe total sum of your lot today
> 
> ...



I haven't stepped out yet. 

I don't know why you call them my lot. 

If you actually read this thread my position has been critical at times and supportive at others.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 25, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Yep. You just hide behind you keyboard now and accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you now a troll x



You doing it now.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


>



How are we proposing to reduce carbon emissions to zero whilst keeping mass migration? Or how mass migration fits into a sustainable world model without capitalism.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How are we proposing to reduce carbon emissions to zero whilst keeping mass migration? Or how mass migration fits into a sustainable world model without capitalism.



People will simply have to migrate by bicycle.

As for a world without capitalism, well curbs on migration are a vital component of modern capitalism so I'm not sure what your point is there.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> People will simply have to migrate by bicycle.
> 
> As for a world without capitalism, well curbs on migration are a vital component of modern capitalism so I'm not sure what your point is there.



Migration is both a symptom and function of capitalism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Migration is both a symptom and function of capitalism.


Migration predates capitalism which is why Turkey is Turkey


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Migration predates capitalism which is why Turkey is Turkey



If the goals are to attain a sustainable planet and alleviate poverty (not sure if that’s a goal of XR or not), then why would mass migration exist as it does today? Seems bizarre that people like Frank think it needs to continue regardless of circumstances.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Migration is both a symptom and function of capitalism.



Funny that it predates capitalism by billions of years then.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Funny that it predates capitalism by billions of years then.



I never said it didn’t. I’m sure there was poverty then also, however, aren’t we getting rid of that?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I never said it didn’t. I’m sure there was poverty then also, however, aren’t we getting rid of that?



Yes. And a good way of avoiding poverty is to allow, or rather not to prevent migration.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes. And a good way of avoiding poverty is to allow, or rather not to prevent migration.



Great. Which countries have no poverty btw?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Great. Which countries have no poverty btw?



Same ones that have open borders.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Same ones that have open borders.



Name them.


----------



## LDC (Apr 26, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I have a friend of Pakistani descent who is getting somewhat exercised over XR on FB over what they perceive as exclusion of BME people by default as were they to be involved in the protests they run the risk of being stripped of their citizenship because of the colour of their skin.



That's a bollocks criticism of XR, and your friend sounds like a deluded drama queen tbh.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 26, 2019)

Went to a local meeting and it was SO fucking frustrating and drawn out and pointless. Over THREE hours with no clear result IMO.

- vegan food for ages with not enough cutlery (waste of an hour)
- bullshit people's assemblies to decide what we were going to do when theyd already decided
- stupid cultish jazzhands and annoying handsignal bollocks so that deaf people feel included  and to not interrupt the speaker (just lol, nothing more distracting than folk waving there hands when youre speaking or watching someone speak)
- No proper answer to democratic acountability or who is making the decisions just some bullshit answer about how we all are.
- Dominated by men for the important stuff.
- No microphones or anything sensible so could barely hear people.
- Inductions for new people rather than involving them in all the groups and decision making.
- Couple or loony ideas about 5g etc creeping in (tbf people were against focusing on single concrete issues v wisely).

Tons of people there though and more actions are being planned locally by other groups, not just XR so I think there is a lot of momentum. I for one will not be back to any planning or meeting stuff though.

Despite my criticisms of this local group I stick by my positive experienced of XR in London and what they actually achieved and the fact that no one else has achieved on a such a big scale that Ive seen or taken any notice of, not since Ocupy anway (which was probably even more flawed than XR).


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 26, 2019)

Their budgeting is available to view online. They're allocating a lot of money to pay people, which I don't have a problem with in principle, but at the same time they appear to have allocated almost nothing of their £700k to legal support for arrestees. Looks like those who've been charged are being left on their own. They're going to look like right arseholes if they don't change that.


----------



## LDC (Apr 26, 2019)

Riklet said:


> Went to a local meeting and it was SO fucking frustrating and drawn out and pointless. Over THREE hours with no clear result IMO.
> 
> - vegan food for ages with not enough cutlery (waste of an hour)
> - bullshit people's assemblies to decide what we were going to do when theyd already decided
> ...



I tend to think what will limit/kill it is the internal pressures and politics rather than the hand of the State.

What area/town was the meeting if you're happy to say?


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Apr 26, 2019)

teqniq said:


> I have a friend of Pakistani descent who is getting somewhat exercised over XR on FB over what they perceive as exclusion of BME people by default as were they to be involved in the protests they run the risk of being stripped of their citizenship because of the colour of their skin. Whether this is fanciful or not I really can't say but I did see a video of a couple of mixed-race girls online someplace saying that if it were BME people doing the protesting the gloves would really have come off by now. My friend has also observed that they quote John Locke - a slaveowner (unbeknownst to me up until they pointed it out) on their site.
> 
> View attachment 168978
> 
> ...



Yup. Amazing how fast white people will defend each other when the minority experience is pointed out as distinct from their privilege.



.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 26, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Name them.



Aw you fell for it you adorable idiot.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Aw you fell for it you adorable idiot.



Fell for what? Your claim that migration alleviates poverty by everyone moving to some magical poverty-free province that you can’t name?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 26, 2019)

Uproot and shift several thousand miles by these carbon emitting things and you may or may not be in a better position because markets.


----------



## vanya (Apr 26, 2019)

Owen Jones interviews Extinction Rebellion


----------



## LDC (Apr 26, 2019)

Hallam came across a right politically dodgy bastard with a touch of the wannabe cult leader about him. I really hope he's not running too much of it. Glad they managed to squeeze some idiot stereotypical hippies in at the end.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 26, 2019)

On minorites and XR.

Given the way this government goes on this isn't just about people of colour.

I have friends from other EU countries living here.

They will have , if Brexit bollox goes ahead, have to apply for what the government called Settled Status.

This is likely to look at any convictions or trouble with the law one has.

So at this time and possible in the future there are whole section of people in this country who are going to think twice about being involved in groups like XR.

This isn't a criticism of XR its a reality for many people in this country.

This government is stripping people of citizenship already. ( the woman who went to Syria to join ISIS). Not saying XR is same as ISIS. But a precedent is being made that if you are migrant here and get involved in politics you better watch out.


----------



## MrSpikey (Apr 27, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Googling "police join protesters" brings up lots of stuff from all over the world. It's not that uncommon.



Quite - see e.g. Undercover policing enquiry


----------



## GarveyLives (Apr 27, 2019)

(Source in each case: as stated in the bottom left of each image)​
Some alternative views on the recently concluded Extinction Rebellion British ethnic majority hippy protest party in central London:

These Items Represent the Extinction Rebellion Protests

Why I support but can’t join Extinction Rebellion

Extinction Rebellion Is Inspiring, But The Movement Risks Leaving People Of Colour Behind

Are Extinction Rebellion whitewashing climate justice?


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> (Source in each case: as stated in the bottom left of each image)​
> Some alternative views on the recently concluded Extinction Rebellion British ethnic majority hippy protest party in central London:
> 
> These Items Represent the Extinction Rebellion Protests
> ...



Have you read any of this thread?

Did you go up and see any of the protests?

Or are you like you do on Brixton Forum putting up a lot of links and photos that are not by you?

As for hippies.

A slight tangent but relevant.

As you know from Brixton forum I've been involved in campaign to save an Adventure playground. In an area that is majority black working class.

I've been talking to now adult born and bred Londoners about there experience of growing up in London in 70s. When Adventure playgrounds were a big thing in London. These are working class guys. They said they were great. And term the people setting them up and running them as the "hippies". Not in a derogatory way that you use but as a fact of what they were. They thought the hippies were great. The adventure playgrounds they set up and ran meant a lot to them.

So in terms of working class men I work with now the hippies you deride had positive influence on  there lives.

To add. Hippies are much maligned. Easy to have a go at.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 28, 2019)

editor said:


> Classy stuff.
> 
> View attachment 168716
> 
> The cult of Greta Thunberg



They clearly  have no idea what a cult actually is, beyond a lazy click bait term. I can’t stand the lazy minimisation of that word.

Anyhow, Greta Thurnberg is inspirational for sure.

To see reactionaries and contrarians get triggered by a little girl is proper funny, like when “Islamic” loons lost their minds over Malala.

They bully her too, nasty mysoginists that they are.

But, just as with AOC, it’s not fair or wise for a collectivist movement to place lots of expectation and hope on the shoulders of one young person. She deserves nurturing and protection more than incessant praise.

Of course, establishment politicians and media fawn over her and want some of the glory of association. They are generally as far behind the curve as their actions are behind their words.

They always look to latch things onto a single personality, frankly because they tend to be dumb.

We don’t have to do the same. 

She is young but her message is old. 

We must all carry it.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 28, 2019)

vanya said:


> Owen Jones interviews Extinction Rebellion




I agree with LynnDoyleCooper Id go further.  Hallam comes across as dodgy. Id say eco fascist.

Owen Jones piece is good. At end I got impression that the average XR protestor sees Capitalism as a problem.

The second women he interviewed was good.

But Hallam no. He is the kind of fundamanentalist deep earther that's put me off Green movement.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm getting flashbacks to Green Anarchist and that zeal.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 29, 2019)

Roger the dodger with a beard and camo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 29, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I agree with LynnDoyleCooper Id go further.  Hallam comes across as dodgy. Id say eco fascist.
> 
> Owen Jones piece is good. At end I got impression that the average XR protestor sees Capitalism as a problem.
> 
> ...


Saw him on an early xr demo. Didn't like the look of him, which has been borne out by what I've seen about him since


----------



## nyxx (Apr 30, 2019)

Been seeing this request around the place for donations towards GBC for the extra work they've been doing for XR lately - essential that GBC are able to keep going!

I'm not convinced posting a link to a facebook post will work, so I've copy-pasted the text, and added the link to the donation page on Green&Black Cross's website.

"Michelle Tylicki
"11 hrs ·
"Extinction Rebellion: check yourself! You've had 1000+ arrested and made over half a million pounds fundraising. Holy fuck! Now you need to own up and actually support the external legal team -the excellent folk at Green and Black Cross- that you have basically shut down with how much work you've thrown at them -endangering the legal support needed by the rest of the wider movement.

"Strait from the source: Extinction Rebellion has paid the Green and Black Cross **ZERO MONEY** for the tireless legal work they've done for the past six months. With the ridiculously huge kind of money XR has this feels abusive. I call on the Extinction Rebellion to donate 50k to the GBC - this would actually cover and help continue the GBC to do the amazing work they’ve been doing for XR and the rest of the direct action grassroots groups in the future. If you support XR, they don’t need any more of your money. Donate directly to the GBC here -I’ve just set up a monthly donation myself: Donate | Green and Black Cross

"Big shoutout to ACAB (Activist Court Aid Brigade) who are linked to the GBC and have also helped with XR court support (paying for arrestee travel funds etc). Donating to the GBC will help support ACAB, will support activists who need legal support.

"Also: the police are not your friends. And neither is capitalism. This kind of stance is strait up missing the point and contradicting to XR's mission of challenging government + corporate power. If you call yourself a rebel stop being so fucking centrist.

"RANT OVER -just kidding, only getting started. The Extinction Rebellion has a lot to learn. We all do. xxx

" #extinctionrebellion #putyourmoneywhereyourmouthis
or else: #activistburnout"

Donate | Green and Black Cross

(If there's a better way of posting that info do let me know via the inbox on here.)


----------



## nyxx (Apr 30, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Their budgeting is available to view online. They're allocating a lot of money to pay people, which I don't have a problem with in principle, but at the same time they appear to have allocated almost nothing of their £700k to legal support for arrestees. Looks like those who've been charged are being left on their own. They're going to look like right arseholes if they don't change that.



nothing to Green & Black Cross who have provided a bunch of services to them for free (because that's how they work) - hopefully that will change - certainly needs to for them to regain any credibility. 

See my post directly above this one for more info!

(Credibility in a general sense not from me personally, that's a whole other matter.)


----------



## friedaweed (May 3, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion prison guide 'wrong'



> Environmental protest group Extinction Rebellion has said it is sorry for the wording of its online prison guide, after a backlash from civil rights activists.
> 
> More than 1,100 protesters were arrested in April, when the group shut down parts of London for 10 days, and future actions are planned.
> 
> ...



Bit more deluded than I thought some of these folk.


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 3, 2019)

Fucking hell.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 3, 2019)

Yes prison, unremitting, unprovoked extreme violence. But on the bright side as much sex and drugs as you want.


----------



## friedaweed (May 3, 2019)

I think, if my daughter informs me correctly, that they call those pants Galaxy Leggings. You can almost see Uranus disappearing into a black hole there chuck  Plenty of 'Up Uranus' faces from the plod too.


----------



## friedaweed (May 3, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Yes prison, unremitting, unprovoked extreme violence. But on the bright side as much sex and drugs as you want.


and yoga on a cold concrete floor


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Bit more deluded than I thought some of these folk.



Some of them, I guess...


----------



## TopCat (May 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> and yoga on a cold concrete floor


With noise, and smells.


----------



## TopCat (May 3, 2019)

Align your chakras.


----------



## TopCat (May 3, 2019)

8ball said:


> Some of them, I guess...


Roger the dodger is bonkers Bruno.


----------



## friedaweed (May 3, 2019)

8ball said:


> Some of them, I guess...


Absolutely. I'm sure there are plenty of genuine people participating behind 'Christians Knitting Cunts' or whatever they call themselves.


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Absolutely. I'm sure there are plenty of genuine people participating behind 'Christians Knitting Cunts' or whatever they call themselves.



I had not heard of that group.


----------



## friedaweed (May 3, 2019)

8ball said:


> I had not heard of that group.




Watch the vid


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 3, 2019)

The Christians and the knitting cunts are two separate groups...


----------



## friedaweed (May 3, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> The Christians and the knitting cunts are two separate groups...


Fair doo's but they merged for the 7.45.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Fair doo's but they merged for the 7.45.


I had wondered how they got up on top of the train ...now I know


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Watch the vid




2 fucking hours?! 

Mebbe check it out later.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 3, 2019)

8ball said:


> 2 fucking hours?!
> 
> Mebbe check it out later.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Extinction Rebellion prison guide 'wrong'
> 
> 
> 
> Bit more deluded than I thought some of these folk.



My god just when I think these clowns can't possibly be more stupid


----------



## 8ball (May 3, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> My god just when I think these clowns can't possibly be more stupid



They seem to be a big and fairly heterogeneous group arranged in the kind of way where dumb things are going to happen now and again.

Also there is a big machine in motion at the moment trying to discredit them by any means possible, especially by propagating conspiracies about the links the leaders have to various businesses.

There is easily enough naivety for them to be discredited by infiltrators too.  There are people in there with their heads screwed on right, but I don’t think their current structure and means of operation is sustainable.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 4, 2019)

8ball said:


> *There is easily enough naivety for them to be discredited by infiltrators too. * There are people in there with their heads screwed on right, but I don’t think their current structure and means of operation is sustainable.


Speaking as one of them,   I think this is a real challenge (the bolded bit) 

Whilst local groups  in small towns might have a lot of accountability and transparency of who members are, I am concerned by the massive growth of the movement now and how much infiltration there must be.	And how this can lead groups into high stakes actions (like the drax action from climate camp) and prison sentences they are not prepared for.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 4, 2019)

8ball said:


> They seem to be a big and fairly heterogeneous group arranged in the kind of way where dumb things are going to happen now and again.
> 
> Also there is a big machine in motion at the moment trying to discredit them by any means possible, especially by propagating conspiracies about the links the leaders have to various businesses.
> 
> There is easily enough naivety for them to be discredited by infiltrators too.  There are people in there with their heads screwed on right, but I don’t think their current structure and means of operation is sustainable.



I dunno if it's a matter of conspiracy to simply state who the organisers are and who they work for.


----------



## TopCat (May 4, 2019)

They seem to be making the same mistake as was done by RTS. A handful of people make all the decisions. The plod will infiltrate the clique and thus fuck them up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 5, 2019)

Emma Thompson, having flown in from LA to make a speech about how we should cut our carbon footprints, jetted back to New York on Friday, BA first class and chowed down on a delicious beef carpaccio. A true inspiration and role model to which we can all aspire


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Absolutely yes is the answer to the first question. Both the green new deal and XR are pushing in that direction. There is some movement in Labour towards the idea of a different type of state, but it definitely doesn't have as much momentum yet.


----------



## 8ball (May 13, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I dunno if it's a matter of conspiracy to simply state who the organisers are and who they work for.



It wouldn't be if what was said was true or even remotely plausible.

(this was totally nuts conspiraloon stuff)


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2019)

TopCat said:


> They seem to be making the same mistake as was done by RTS. A handful of people make all the decisions. The plod will infiltrate the clique and thus fuck them up.


Sure they've done it already


----------



## 8ball (May 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Sure they've done it already



I'd hope they were currently operating on the assumption that there are plod among them.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'd hope they were currently operating on the assumption that there are plod among them.


Yeh, you'd hope


----------



## LDC (May 13, 2019)

TopCat said:


> They seem to be making the same mistake as was done by RTS. A handful of people make all the decisions. The plod will infiltrate the clique and thus fuck them up.



The problems with RTS and its structure and what happened politically had nothing to do with infiltration though.

And I'm not sure infiltration would make too much difference to XR given its relationship to the police and its political positions.

Here's something on XR and its police/prison ideas Opinion: Unlike Extinction Rebellion, I know the harsh reality of prison


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Here's something on XR and its police/prison ideas Opinion: Unlike Extinction Rebellion, I know the harsh reality of prison



My mate wrote that. He writes a lot of stuff like this but it doesn't usually make the newspapers. He's written a book, which everyone should buy.


----------



## BristolEcho (May 13, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> My mate wrote that. He writes a lot of stuff like this but it doesn't usually make the newspapers. He's written a book, which everyone should buy.



Been reading his stuff for a while and plan to get his book. Think he's saying a lot of stuff that resonates.


----------



## LDC (May 13, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> My mate wrote that. He writes a lot of stuff like this but it doesn't usually make the newspapers. He's written a book, which everyone should buy.



Yeah the book is mostly really good, I was a bit disappointed in the plunge into identity politics and privilege politics he took in some of it though. I think some of the class stuff is a bit confused too, more equates extreme poverty and deprivation with working class in some bits. He's very sharp on the criticism of activism though.


----------



## TopCat (May 14, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The problems with RTS and its structure and what happened politically had nothing to do with infiltration though.


----------



## LDC (May 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


>



Maybe you could offer a better explanation than an emoticon?

Why do you think infiltration was the problem that wrecked the group? And yes, I know the core group was infiltrated. The infiltration was largely an information gathering mission, they had little political influence on the direction of the group.

IME problems were to do with the structure of the group that had been needed to organize the things it did, its massive popularity and that creating huge demands externally on the group, changing nature of what enabled activism (the dole), the political direction of the group and no clear ideas where to take things from street parties and then J18.


----------



## nyxx (May 17, 2019)

Green & Black Cross don't usually make statements on particular groups they support, they've had it with XR. Personally I think GBC gave them far too much of their resources before sacking them off cos by this account XR are just shitting all over the work they've been doing, not just for them. 

Statement on Extinction Rebellion | Green and Black Cross


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 24, 2019)

Met want 1,130 climate protesters charged

the filth want everyone done. they have lost control here and are flailing. they are gonna be working overtime to fit 1100 non violent people up.cunts


----------



## Sprocket. (May 24, 2019)

They dared to protest and they must be made an example of I surmise.


----------



## newbie (May 25, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> They dared to protest and they must be made an example of I surmise.


Suspect the Met need the stats as part of a push for more funding and increased powers to deal with mass protests.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 25, 2019)

newbie said:


> Suspect the Met need the stats as part of a push for more funding and increased powers to deal with mass protests.


I wondered this too 
It's going to take up a lot of court time to get through all of those people some of whom weren't locked on or even in the road at the time but were in the area when a section 14 order was issued and communicated


----------



## newbie (May 25, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I wondered this too
> It's going to take up a lot of court time to get through all of those people some of whom weren't locked on or even in the road at the time but were in the area when a section 14 order was issued and communicated


S14 is pretty much an absolute offence, so howsabout on the spot fine plus strict bail condition banning returning to protest. No need to transport most arrestees across London for processing. Means protestor has to initiate appeal to be heard in court, with serious costs implications.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 25, 2019)

newbie said:


> S14 is pretty much an absolute offence, so howsabout on the spot fine plus strict bail condition banning returning to protest. No need to transport most arrestees across London for processing. Means protestor has to initiate appeal to be heard in court, with serious costs implications.


quite 
although I'd rather it didn't go that way


----------



## newbie (May 25, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> quite
> although I'd rather it didn't go that way


absolutely, but that's what they seemed to be positioning themselves for when the protests were on.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 25, 2019)

newbie said:


> absolutely, but that's what they seemed to be positioning themselves for when the protests were on.


I'm surprised they didn't do that tbh
they arrested people instead [which is so long in comparison]


----------



## LDC (May 25, 2019)

Isn't getting as many people arrested and filling the courts up with them a central part of the XR strategy?


----------



## LDC (May 25, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> they are gonna be working overtime to fit 1100 non violent people up.cunts



It's hardly fitting people up. And not sure how the non-violent is relevant at all either. They blocked the roads, were warned to move, refused and were arrested.


----------



## newbie (May 25, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I'm surprised they didn't do that tbh
> they arrested people instead [which is so long in comparison]


Needs a change in the law as they don't have the powers at the moment, certainly for on the spot fines but also I think for onsite processing and bail conditions.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 25, 2019)

newbie said:


> Needs a change in the law as they don't have the powers at the moment, certainly for on the spot fines but also I think for onsite processing and bail conditions.


I thought there would be more arrests that were then dearrested...


----------



## Gramsci (May 25, 2019)

XR protest was peaceful. Plus I think protestors had a lot of public sympathry.

This meant the police couldn't be seen to be to heavy handed.

Cressida Dick , head of Met, says XR tactics were new kind of protest.

The gluing by protestors to roads etc meant Met had to get specialist teams in .

XR success means police want more powers.


> She said: “Serious disruption is serious disruption. In the case of Extinction Rebellion, certainly the vast majority were not violent. They were unlawful, but the offences that they may be charged with are not serious and, therefore, the deterrent is not strong. I think that needs to be looked at, as to whether there should be a stronger deterrent. I’m just a police officer but we’ve – the city – has just gone through this for two weeks… and I think it raises a number of issues.”



Extinction Rebellion protest: Look at new deterrents, says top cop
Reading the article Tories are saying Labour Mayor didn't criticise XR enough.

Policing isn't just about having powers and laws. Its also about what the police think they can get away with politically. This requires political support.


----------



## Gramsci (May 25, 2019)

The police also couldn't use kettling as this was peaceful protest.


----------



## LDC (May 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The police also couldn't use kettling as this was peaceful protest.



They've used it plenty of times in those situations. I suspect the reason they didn't use it on XR more was more the dynamic of the protests (large numbers, static, and blocking roads) which it meant it wasn't the best tactic.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The police also couldn't use kettling as this was peaceful protest.



Err...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The police also couldn't use kettling as this was peaceful protest.


That's when they really like using it.


----------



## Gramsci (May 25, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> They've used it plenty of times in those situations. I suspect the reason they didn't use it on XR more was more the dynamic of the protests (large numbers, static, and blocking roads) which it meant it wasn't the best tactic.



Which ones?

My understanding was from what happened at Waterloo Bridge. Police did block both ends one evening. This stopped water supplies. XR being the well organised group they are brought it to police attention this was peaceful protest. So police had to unblock one end.

My understanding is that groups like Liberty have helped legal action on behalf of those kettled in previous protests.

Kettling has been said to be lawful. But now more restricted in its use. That is to stop potentially violent protests. Which in XR protest police couldn't prove.


----------



## editor (May 25, 2019)

Tomorrow in West Norwood
Extinction Rebellion planting ‘Protest Trees’ in West Norwood, Sun 26th May


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 26, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The police also couldn't use kettling as this was peaceful protest.



Kettling people who are intent on staying put is a bit of a waste of time...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Kettling people who are intent on staying put is a bit of a waste of time...


Yeh it's then the police usually do what they did to the climate camp ten years ago


----------



## Rob Ray (May 26, 2019)

It fell out of fashion a bit when the High Court ruling in 2012 suggested that cops had to show they had reasonable grounds for thinking there would be an imminent breach of the peace if they wanted to kettle, so it's mostly used against more "obviously scary" types now (eg. EDL or black bloc).

That said, it'd be a naive fool who thinks they wouldn't still kettle non-violent protests where its expedient to do so and they have a relevant Minister/top cop giving them the nod. Which they will if protesters become annoying/disruptive enough to get businesses/Middle England/the press hot and bothered. In moments of panic Home Secretaries have always been wont to just say "blank cheque, shut them down."


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 27, 2019)

Oh shit. Look what was in my daughters schoolbag


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 27, 2019)

What have I done ?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 27, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> What have I done ?


something very right if she's picking up things like this


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> What have I done ?


That's a grand leaflet she's designed


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 27, 2019)

i think she skipped school on friday for the demo. shes only 14, so likely soemthing picked up. it is scarily reminiscent of the stuff i used to churn out on the union photocopier after hours all those years ago


----------



## Miss-Shelf (May 27, 2019)

This is an interesting phenomena from the Friday school strikes,  I guess.

That they normalised political and protest engagement (I know EMA and Uni fees in 2010 protest did but it was a smaller movement]

I was just with some 13 year olds in Dorset and they go to the strikes in Exeter - they were *really* well informed about many issues despite living in a tiny village*

*I know they have the internet even in Dorset  and can find out about things but the excitement of going to a city and going on a protest felt compelling and attractive, it seemed.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 15, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> My mate wrote that. He writes a lot of stuff like this but it doesn't usually make the newspapers. He's written a book, which everyone should buy.


He seems pretty sound


----------



## splonkydoo (Jun 15, 2019)

Independent Legal Observers withdrawing from ER over concerns

Statement on Extinction Rebellion | Green and Black Cross


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 15, 2019)

splonkydoo said:


> Independent Legal Observers withdrawing from ER over concerns
> 
> Statement on Extinction Rebellion | Green and Black Cross


Been covered already in this thread


----------



## nyxx (Jun 16, 2019)

Chatting with a friend who was involved in xr court support the other day.

Apparently some ppl in xr believed that gbc had just had a hissy fit and deserted them for no good reason, and thought that they were being paid.

Someone’s been putting some utter bullshit about the place... GBC are hard working volunteers who were completely swamped by xr who didn’t even donate anything to their org for providing legal trainings and legal support. Their statement on why they’ve withdrawn from providing further is clear.


----------



## nyxx (Jun 16, 2019)

& I can’t help but see a parallel with that ^ and the tendency to flip out at any criticism however well founded, or constructively phrased, it is.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 20, 2019)

ER infiltrated and disrupted the Chancellor's speech at Mansion House tonight. Dressed up all nice and everything.

But it's Secretary of State Mark Fields reaction that's going to be the big news.


----------



## tim (Jun 20, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> ER infiltrated and disrupted the Chancellor's speech at Mansion House tonight. Dressed up all nice and everything.
> 
> But it's Secretary of State Mark Fields reaction that's going to be the big news.




What a vile cunt. He can be contacted on Twitter


Mark Field MP (@MarkFieldUK) on Twitter


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 21, 2019)

tim said:


> What a vile cunt. He can be contacted on Twitter
> 
> 
> Mark Field MP (@MarkFieldUK) on Twitter




Oh he's one of those 'I'll teach you' kind of cunts...Fucking hell,  feel very smashy watching that.


----------



## elbows (Jun 21, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> ER infiltrated and disrupted the Chancellor's speech at Mansion House tonight. Dressed up all nice and everything.
> 
> But it's Secretary of State Mark Fields reaction that's going to be the big news.




The big news about this shitheads unacceptable violence also includes references to this tweet from just last month:


----------



## kenny g (Jun 21, 2019)

If he had genuinely thought she were armed he would have floored her. Total tosser.


----------



## treelover (Jun 30, 2019)

How come ER were inside Glastonbury, would have thought they would be outside protesting about its carbon footprint, resource usage, etc, even trying to close it down.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 30, 2019)

Tea & cake with Emily & Mick?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2019)

treelover said:


> How come ER were inside Glastonbury, would have thought they would be outside protesting about its carbon footprint, resource usage, etc, even trying to close it down.


As any festival goer will tell you, it is better to have people in the tent pissing out than outside pissing in. That's why they were inside.


----------



## friedaweed (Jun 30, 2019)

Well they let Miley Cyrus in


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 2, 2019)

Prepare to be un amazed

London Green Left Blog: The Socialist Workers Party is Infiltrating Extinction Rebellion


----------



## kenny g (Jul 3, 2019)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Prepare to be un amazed
> 
> London Green Left Blog: The Socialist Workers Party is Infiltrating Extinction Rebellion



Nasty group of people best avoided by all.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 3, 2019)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Prepare to be un amazed
> 
> London Green Left Blog: The Socialist Workers Party is Infiltrating Extinction Rebellion



Does it even count as infiltration, really?


----------



## 19force8 (Jul 4, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Does it even count as infiltration, really?


This bit was quite funny:


> At a meeting on 29 April, for example, eight or nine SWPers walked into our meeting and took up strategic positions around the cramped room.


"Strategic positions" - what, like by the exits? Did they send in a recon squad first? Or did they just sit on vacant chairs?

Also, from the comments it seems the writer was expelled from XR. I didn't know that was even possible.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jul 15, 2019)

They've shut down Fleet Street with a boat.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 15, 2019)

Also Bristol, Cardiff, Glasgow and Leeds, apparently.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 15, 2019)

Done east  dulwich station overnight. Poor staff were in the early scrubbing away with solvents to clear the worst of it off the seating

Eta my offspring have denied it but they were still in bed when I left this morning


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 15, 2019)

Latest from the BBC - Extinction Rebellion block city centre roads


----------



## nogojones (Jul 15, 2019)

Somewhere between 1-200 people blocking up the centre of Cardiff. Roads in town are lovely and quite


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 15, 2019)

Still at Fleet Street.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 15, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Also Bristol, Cardiff, Glasgow and Leeds, apparently.



8.40 this morning roads into Cardiff city centre were gridlocked, just my luck that I had to take my car into work this morning. Found a way round it to get to the Bay though.


----------



## treelover (Jul 15, 2019)

They have been given huge funding by U.S philanthropists/banking trusts, etc, including a Getty one.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 15, 2019)

by Soros?


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2019)

Details here:

Climate activists, including Extinction Rebellion, to recieve £500,000 from US philanthropists

XR spokesperson thinks this funding is purely to help the cause.

If I was a wealthy person or big business I might think its better to gain influence through backing XR.

So now its the 1% donating funds.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2019)

Here is the Climate Emergency Fund set up by the wealthy philanthropists membership:

About Us – Climate Emergency Fund


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> by Soros?



Getty look like big donors from the CEF website.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2019)

One of XR criticism of democracy is that lobbying of government by the rich and powerful means that democracy doesn't work. So XR non violent mass rebellion replacing democracy with Peoples Assembly is the way forward. 

Taking funding from the wealthy donors does seem to me XR falling into same trap.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 15, 2019)

> Salamon wrote on social media that the fund and the involvement of wealthy philanthropists could be a "game changer for the Climate Emergency Movement."



Philanthropists Raise $600 Million for Extinction Rebellion and School Strikers

This article shows CEF was set up to fund XR.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2019)

The XR lot have camped up in the park opposite the Old Vic theatre near Waterloo in London. Well organised. Looks like they are there for several days. They have set up stage. Sadly no drugs or alcohol. So clean planet loving living only. Some pics. I like the activists on the ground. Even though I have reservations about the leaders.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 16, 2019)

.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 16, 2019)

I do have problems with this. This evening one of the XR people was giving speech about compassion radical government. Etc. Saying that democracy was in hock to powerful business and media interests. That they were advocating peaceful radical change by mass action. Not once mentioned support from wealthy donors like the Getty family for XR.

Seems to me activists on the ground get one story whilst leaders chat to wealthy donors.


----------



## friedaweed (Jul 16, 2019)

Boat happy


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 17, 2019)

Some posho on Radio 4 this morning having conniptions because XR is “anarchism with a smiling face”, is anti capitalist, extremist etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 17, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some posho on Radio 4 this morning having conniptions because XR is “anarchism with a smiling face”, is anti capitalist, extremist etc.


I wish I shared his high opinion of them


----------



## LDC (Jul 17, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some posho on Radio 4 this morning having conniptions because XR is “anarchism with a smiling face”, is anti capitalist, extremist etc.



Yeah, heard that too. He got a very long time airing his position too. Who was it, I missed the name?


----------



## Libertad (Jul 17, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I do have problems with this. This evening one of the XR people was giving speech about compassion radical government. Etc. Saying that democracy was in hock to powerful business and media interests. That they were advocating peaceful radical change by mass action. Not once mentioned support from wealthy donors like the Getty family for XR.
> 
> Seems to me activists on the ground get one story whilst leaders chat to wealthy donors.
> View attachment 177623



Is that Vanessa Redgrave?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 17, 2019)

I bet Roger the dodger plans to have special voting rights.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, heard that too. He got a very long time airing his position too. Who was it, I missed the name?



Aye. Missed it too.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 17, 2019)

Hold on. Probably this:


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, heard that too. He got a very long time airing his position too. Who was it, I missed the name?



Treat Extinction Rebellion as an extremist anarchist group, former anti-terror chief tells police

Richard Walton ex counter terrorism cop. Done report for Policy Exchange.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 17, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Treat Extinction Rebellion as an extremist anarchist group, former anti-terror chief tells police
> 
> Richard Walton ex counter terrorism cop. Done report for Policy Exchange.


when you have two professionals who are 'anti-extremist' it comes as no surprise that they treat xr as an extremist organisation

report can be downloaded at Extremism Rebellion | Policy Exchange


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 17, 2019)

XR spokesperson on the radio now. Asked if he wants to bring down Capitalism. Evaded the question. Did say they were prepared to break the law. (peacefully).

spokesperson did good job on refuting the ex cop report. 

XR spokesperson was Rupert Reed.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 17, 2019)

Another voice here :

A REBELLION YEARNING FOR EXTINCTION | The BRISTOLIAN

Taking shelter from the sun and the overt Glasto-hippie atmosphere under the ‘information’ gazebo, The Fly overheard one Bristol punter ask questions as to how XR was organised and how its decisions were made. The punter was told that all XR decisions were made by ‘those people with influence and qualification in the movement’, in what was described as a ‘post-democratic structure’(?)

...


The punters were by and large FULLY AWARE of the issues and how SERIOUS they are, but DIDN’T CONNECT in any way to the XR protestors or their activities. Questions were raised like What’s the point of such tactics? What’s the message here, beyond sound bites? ARE THEY ALL HIPPIES? Why stop our public transport to make a point about private cars on the road? Why don’t they instead OCCUPY the head offices of the offending FOSSIL FUEL corporations and collaborator government agencies? Might support them then… Listening to these authentic Bristol voices, The Fly rubbed its legs together in contemplation. Clearly, such voices were NOT going to get the biggest cheers at the ‘peoples assembly’ of yogi-flyers levitating above Bristol Bridge.


----------



## Poi E (Jul 17, 2019)

Christ, so liberals opposed to democracy out to save us. Something sounds familiar.


----------



## LDC (Jul 17, 2019)

Beyond politics.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Beyond politics.


Beyond your participation anyway.


----------



## campanula (Jul 17, 2019)

Hard not to see the essential inanity of 'climate camps - my bloody daughter is participating in one (which I am expected to give up my entire weekend to sew cushions for the kids area).  She is basically going on an urban holiday with vegans. I am so fucking sick of greenwash bullshit - my stepmother-in-law buys some shit lager made from purified water or summat, ostentatiously waves the tins around WHILE DRIVING A FUCKING GREAT 4x4 LANDROVER...in GLASGOW! (Because EVERYONE drives these in Scotland - O rly?) Daughter thinks nothing of nipping off on a plane...but is sanctimonious as fuck if we have a sausage roll. They have all the badges though. Because yep, what I am seeing, on my bike going to work, are a troupe of middle class trustafarians with endless time on their hands, waffling on about the latest food fad (but not air miles, of course) and I swear, it gets on my last nerve. I fucking KNOW I am ecologically sound because I am too poor to be anything else.
Taking money from philanthropists - yeah, right.
Just fuck right off.


----------



## BristolEcho (Jul 17, 2019)

Well they've pissed off my parents so that's something.

Although Mum's just said that they are to happy clappy. I quite agree.


----------



## kenny g (Jul 17, 2019)

Accepting donations  is usually the start of things fucking up.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 17, 2019)

It came up at work today. ( London). Lot of support for what they are doing. And these are working class guys. Not middle class hippies. 
I've really mixed feelings about XR. 

The Policy Exchange report that was on radio this morning is start of backlash. 

The early protests of XR ended up with even my Council deciding doing its own People Assembly on climate change would be good idea. 

From what Ive seen in London the XR protests involve a wide range of ages and people.

Also, beatniks, hippies is milieu  I grew up in Plymouth. I have issues with them on personal level but its not just a middle class phenomenon.


----------



## SovietArmy (Jul 17, 2019)

I like idea take money from rich.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jul 18, 2019)

I have loads of reservations about xr and I'd say I'm pretty committed to supporting them. 

It's still a very white, middle class movement....although some people within it listened to some of the valid criticism about the way it alienates people (after the April action ) I don't know if enough people are doing so 

IBut I've skirted environmental protest since the '90's  dipping in only tiny amounts while burying my head in the sand hoping climate change would somehow fix itself or happen slowly or after my life....I can't ignore it anymore ....so I'm doing things with XR....and if not with XR then I'll have to find other ways


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 18, 2019)

I don't know how to really feel about XR. There's something there I don't like. At the same time, I admit that, despite my political aspirations, I'm not much of an activist, so what the fuck do I know and i'm full of shit.

Parking a boat on a bridge on major throughfares just seems stupid. I'm not convinced people looking at this can see how this ties in to climate change. They're just going to see people camping on the street and blocking traffic. Besides which the state can just wait them out; let them wave their banners for their "week of rebellion" and then after they fuck off back home go back to business as usual, point to a few scraps of waste and say "look they're hypocrits".

I'm suspicious of their leadership. Roger Hallam has some stupid ideas which in the preceding 48 pages of this thread I haven't read have probably been mentioned.

Then there's the whole shady 'XR Corporate' aspect and the big money behind Greta Thrumberg (sorry if that's misspelt). 

The whole thing is starting to feel, to me, like its all 'branding'. I can't articulate this well, but "summer of rebellion" just feels like an exercise in branding and image, rather than a genuine voice of outrage from the working class. 

It's impressive how they have organised and spread (at least across FB). There's clearly a lot of good people who are active, setting up local groups, etc, but there's something about all this - aside from the tactical ignorance of the state and the police - that seems off to me.

There I spoke. What the fuck do I know


----------



## BristolEcho (Jul 18, 2019)

Think they've really fucked up in Bristol to be honest. People mainly pretty pissed off about the disruption.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 18, 2019)

I don't know where they are getting the boats from or how they're moving them around but it's a really obvious if fatuous criticism to complain at them for driving boats around and polluting in the process. They should have seen that happening.

The problem with these protests to my eyes seems to be that they are just completely unorganised. One minute they just randomly decide to go block the motorway and then say "sorry but climate change is worse", which is a terrible answer that no one will take serious because their experience encompasses the immediate disruption much more than rising sea levels.


----------



## rich! (Jul 18, 2019)

SovietArmy said:


> I like idea take money from rich.


I spent it on beer. Sorry.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 19, 2019)

'You can't arrest us all': Extinction Rebellion respond to police saying they won't allow repeat of April protests


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 19, 2019)

Time has shown that politicians and capital has failed to address climate change with any urgency. I'm too old to protest but am pleased that someone is prepared to make a point about it.  Inconvenient but worthy imho.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> 'You can't arrest us all': Extinction Rebellion respond to police saying they won't allow repeat of April protests


the police like a challenge


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2019)

Well it will be harder to control the activists if the police weigh in.


----------



## YouSir (Jul 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well it will be harder to control the activists if the police weigh in.



If the police weigh in the protests will halve in size overnight and the number of outraged Guardian articles will double. From some of the people I've met at their actions (in passing, I've not attended) I get the feeling that they genuinely don't believe the police will ever try to stop them. The potential use of force against protesters is, at best, an abstract idea that only effects other people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well it will be harder to control the activists if the police weigh in.


They'll run from here to castlebar


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the police like a challenge



Too true. Mind you it can work both ways...

When living in Taunton years ago, the police asked the council to take down the Christmas tree before New Year's Eve night, because drunken people had developed a habit of climbing it around mid-night.

The response was along the lines of 'Taunton's police don't need to deal with regular football matches & demos, surely they can look after a tree for one night'.

When I read that in the local rag, I thought, well there's a challenge, I just knew the police were fucked. 

Come the night, the half a dozen coppers & their fence around the tree couldn't cope, several people broke their line, climbed the tree, and threw bulbs at the coppers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 19, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Too true. Mind you it can work both ways...
> 
> When living in Taunton years ago, the police asked the council to take down the Christmas tree before New Year's Eve night, because drunken people had developed a habit of climbing it around mid-night.
> 
> ...


I wish XR had the stomach for such antics


----------



## shambler (Jul 19, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Think they've really fucked up in Bristol to be honest. People mainly pretty pissed off about the disruption.



This certainly wasn't the mood around castle park yesterday evening. Lots of stuff going on, and very well attended in the sun - all ages.

They really need to sort out the fucking music in these events, though. Jesus. At first I thought it was satire.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 19, 2019)

shambler said:


> This certainly wasn't the mood around castle park yesterday evening. Lots of stuff going on, and very attended in the sun - all ages.
> 
> They really need to sort out the fucking music in these events, though. Jesus. At first I thought it was satire.


What was the choice?

A pertinent question, to be sure


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 19, 2019)

This is excellent.

Extinction Rebellion: Not the Struggle we Need, Pt. 1


----------



## BristolEcho (Jul 19, 2019)

shambler said:


> This certainly wasn't the mood around castle park yesterday evening. Lots of stuff going on, and very well attended in the sun - all ages.
> 
> They really need to sort out the fucking music in these events, though. Jesus. At first I thought it was satire.



Well you'd expect the people at the park to be enjoying it wouldn't you?


----------



## BristolEcho (Jul 19, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> This is excellent.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion: Not the Struggle we Need, Pt. 1



That was great thanks.


----------



## shambler (Jul 20, 2019)

BristolEcho said:


> Well you'd expect the people at the park to be enjoying it wouldn't you?



Yeah, fair play. But at least some people (lots of them) clearly are supportive. And although I can't be sure, it seemed like many were not necessarily dyed-in-the-wool activists, but people who happened to walk past/stop by and stick around.

People at the park, those stuck in traffic jams, nobs on comment sections... They're all self selecting audiences to a degree, and not indicative. Hard to guage accurately.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 20, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> This is excellent.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion: Not the Struggle we Need, Pt. 1


Agree, looking forward to the rest of the analysis. Particularly want to hear more about this claim "frame ecological crisis in ways that leave the door open for dystopian 'solutions'."


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 20, 2019)

not a bad article . 

i am happy that my kids aare getting into protesting and thinking about activism- every time they to out i remind them that the police are not your friends- no matter how chatty they are, they are not your friends, they want to stitch you up. that is what they do.


----------



## LDC (Jul 20, 2019)

Had it pointed out to me here's a fair bit in _Peace News_ about Extinction Rebellion. Not as useful a critique as above, but worth a read anyway.

Where XR and the climate movement need to go now | Peace News
XR: The 3.5 percent rule | Peace News
XR: The Plan | Peace News
XR: The dangers of apocalyptic organising | Peace News


----------



## LDC (Jul 20, 2019)

Edit, report already been linked to further above.


----------



## nyxx (Jul 20, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Too true. Mind you it can work both ways...
> 
> When living in Taunton years ago, the police asked the council to take down the Christmas tree before New Year's Eve night, because drunken people had developed a habit of climbing it around mid-night.
> 
> ...



That’s beautiful :-D


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 20, 2019)

The critique could have done without identity politics wiggling in for position.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 20, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Had it pointed out to me here's a fair bit in _Peace News_ about Extinction Rebellion. Not as useful a critique as above, but worth a read anyway.
> 
> Where XR and the climate movement need to go now | Peace News
> XR: The 3.5 percent rule | Peace News
> ...



Excellent, the first one in particular.  I'll be sharing that amongst local XR.

The libcom one isn't very helpful in my opinion.  Just anarcho mudslinging.


----------



## kenny g (Jul 20, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Excellent, the first one in particular.  I'll be sharing that amongst local XR.
> 
> The libcom one isn't very helpful in my opinion.  Just anarcho mudslinging.



Yes, the first one Where XR and the climate movement need to go now | Peace News is well worth a read.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 20, 2019)

Perhaps worth mentioning is that in the report Hallam bases his conviction upon that only non violent action can be successful, non violent actually means 'largely non violent' where violence refers to guerilla/militia activity.  Non violent doesnt mean everyone sitting in the road to get arrested, it just means the absence of an organised armed struggle.  Chucking bottles at coppers is still okay in this analysis.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 20, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Had it pointed out to me here's a fair bit in _Peace News_ about Extinction Rebellion. Not as useful a critique as above, but worth a read anyway.
> 
> Where XR and the climate movement need to go now | Peace News
> XR: The 3.5 percent rule | Peace News
> ...



From the first article:



> But ask yourself which seems more likely. That thousands of people blocking traffic in central London over the next few years will force the government to hand over power to an unelected citizens’ assembly, which will then decide to make rapid and unprecedented economic, social and political changes across UK society _and_ that these will then be implemented?



Whether its unlikely or not this aspect of the XR thinking I don't like. 

see my previous posts and I've been at the protests in London. 

There is something deeply undemocratic in XR programme. I'm having this problem in Lambeth. When XR tell people about "Peoples Assemblies" they give the impression its some kind of direct democracy. Lambeth Council say they want to hold their version of a peoples assembly. XR Lambeth want their own. Which will be more diverse apparently. 

To get it straight the XR version of "Peoples Assemblies" has nothing to do with democracy. 

And Hallam is quite clear on that.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 20, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Perhaps worth mentioning is that in the report Hallam bases his conviction upon that only non violent action can be successful, non violent actually means 'largely non violent' where violence refers to guerilla/militia activity.  Non violent doesnt mean everyone sitting in the road to get arrested, it just means the absence of an organised armed struggle.  Chucking bottles at coppers is still okay in this analysis.



Actually its not.

I've seen XR in action and anyone who gets shirty with police gets told to calm down.

So no I don't agree with you here. Chucking bottles at police is not part of XR. I have heard them being told to "send out love to police" who are arresting non violent protestors. Not chuck bottles at them.

The analysis as I understand it is that if hundreds of people who are non violent get arrested public opinion will support the protest. More people will come forward to be arrested. Until the protest becomes a mass protest bringing down the government. Or forcing it to bring in law that zero carbon will be brought in by 2025.

To be replaced by unelected Peoples Assemblies. Who will be given different alternatives to get to zero carbon by 2025. Not to question the zero carbon policy.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Actually its not.
> 
> I've seen XR in action and anyone who gets shirty with police gets told to calm down.
> 
> So no I don't agree with you here.



I mean in the report that Hallam has based his whole non violence strategy on, not the London protests.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 20, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I mean in the report that Hallam has based his whole non violence strategy on, not the London protests.



Apologies I see what you mean.

Its not the impression Hallam gives when he mentions the report in his YouTube talks.


----------



## smokedout (Jul 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Apologies I see what you mean.
> 
> Its not the impression Hallam gives when he mentions the report in his YouTube talks.



Interesting that the report also talks of non violent protests being more likely to topple a regime when met with a violent response.  It may be that the goading of the state around Heathrow etc is Hallam's way of attempting to provoke this.  Of course XR activists don't need to know that detail.


> We argue that nonviolent resistance may have a strategic advantage over violent resistance for two reasons. First, repressing nonviolent campaigns may backfire. In backfire, an unjust act—often violent repression—recoils against its originators, often resulting in the breakdown of obedience among regime supporters, mobilization of the population against the regime, and international condemnation of the regime.


----------



## campanula (Jul 20, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Excellent, the first one in particular. I'll be sharing that amongst local XR.





kenny g said:


> Yes, the first one Where XR and the climate movement need to go now | Peace News is well worth a read.



Yep, Daughter is off to some Climate thing which has a very specific protest (Drax) rather than an overarching and slightly inchoate emotional 'movement'. Not least because of the intersecting consequences of climate change on all aspects of social justice (Immigration, housing, health and welfare). The next stage is the difficult, local, on the ground and bottom-up organic work... because without solidarity and alliances, you have nothing. Everything (therefore everyone) is  affected. Stitching it all together  in coalitions requires a whole range of different tactics and languages.


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 21, 2019)

To take the XR side small campaigns about specific issues are limited. They have being going on for years. People will protest about something that affects their backyard.

XR have successfully put the issue , despite Brexit, on the front pages. Even if only for a short while. No number of small local campaigns will do that.

If they do move in the direction of the Peace News article that will be a significant change in direction. Point of XR is to build mass non violent protest movement here to change government direction once and for all. Time is to short for building up in the grassroots taking time and energy in small local campaigns.


----------



## Ground Elder (Jul 21, 2019)




----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

What do people think of their push for a Citizen's Assembly? A random group of peeps given power to make decision, taking views from experts etc.

Seems that this idea is presented without any push for a wider revolution, which means it will just sit in a capitalist context and be utterly worthless


----------



## Flavour (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> What do people think of their push for a Citizen's Assembly? A random group of peeps given power to make decision, taking views from experts etc.
> 
> Seems that this idea is presented without any push for a wider revolution, which means it will just sit in a capitalist context and be utterly worthless


exactly


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Jul 22, 2019)

I think if it is was worthless that would be ok. It will be bad. 

An unelected citizens assembly could end up being a figleaf for all sorts of horrors - the sort of dystopian "solutions" that Out of the Woods were hinting at. Technocratic erosion of democracy with a smile on its face.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> What do people think of their push for a Citizen's Assembly? A random group of peeps given power to make decision, taking views from experts etc.
> 
> Seems that this idea is presented without any push for a wider revolution, which means it will just sit in a capitalist context and be utterly worthless


It's a horrible idea and basically technocracy with a bit of wool and glitter stuck on


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's a horrible idea and basically technocracy with a bit of wool and glitter stuck on


Surely a random sortition of people is the opposite of a technocracy?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Surely a random sortition of people is the opposite of a technocracy?


because...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Surely a random sortition of people is the opposite of a technocracy?


Except this would be a citizens committee 'taking the views of experts' eg signing off on what the technocrats say


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 22, 2019)

Would be all for it if they were basically trying to form soviets


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Would be all for it if they were basically trying to form soviets



Rebellion extincts you...


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> because...


_because _an authority based on random selection is at odds with an authority based on expertise and knowledge. The process they propose, afaict, is _not _ based on expertise or technical knowledge. It's random selection of any joe blow in the country.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> Rebellion extincts you...


soviet small s, workers councils/assemblies whatever, not trying to recreate the USSR


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> _because _an authority based on random selection is at odds with an authority based on expertise and knowledge. The process they propose, afaict, is _not _ based on expertise or technical knowledge. It's random selection of any joe blow in the country.


do you have any idea just how difficult it is to genuinely select people randomly?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> _because _an authority based on random selection is at odds with an authority based on expertise and knowledge. The process they propose, afaict, is _not _ based on expertise or technical knowledge. It's random selection of any joe blow in the country.



At least we'll have clear meeting minutes confirming that we *deserved* to go extinct.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> soviet small s, workers councils/assemblies whatever, not trying to recreate the USSR



I'm not wasting a bad pun/meme cos of boring technical details.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jul 22, 2019)

Eight of a ten experts think we should start sterilising people, we'll start with these poor ones


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> do you have any idea just how difficult it is to genuinely select people randomly?


That isn't really relevant to your question. I'm not advocating this at all. As I said I think it's a bad idea and I explained why.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Eight of a ten experts think we should start sterilising people, we'll start with these poor ones


Finally, common sense policies to make Britain Great again. Just like in the old days, at the vicarage, with the cucuber sandiwches (no fucking crusts though!)


----------



## Brainaddict (Jul 22, 2019)

Have we had this bizarre Telegraph piece where the leaders of extinction rebellion admit one of them made a mistake in being a revolutionary, and then they go into a bizarre rant about how just-in-time inventory practices are the real problem? 

I'm sympathetic to so many people involved in XR but these two are such a liability and I fear they will end up letting a lot of people down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> That isn't really relevant to your question. I'm not advocating this at all. As I said I think it's a bad idea and I explained why.


it's the first question i've asked (the ? gives it away, you see) so i think it is relevant to my question. i haven't suggested you are advocating it.


selecting people at random - truly selecting people at random - can only really be done in a technologically advanced society and would imo mark your actual control of society by a technological elite because the people randomly selected would be reliant on their advice for what to do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I fear they will end up letting a lot of people down.


they already have let a lot of people down


----------



## chilango (Jul 22, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think if it is was worthless that would be ok. It will be bad.
> 
> An unelected citizens assembly could end up being a figleaf for all sorts of horrors - the sort of dystopian "solutions" that Out of the Woods were hinting at. Technocratic erosion of democracy with a smile on its face.



Coincidence that this is being pushed when liberal democracy is showing signs of losing its grip?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> selecting people at random - truly selecting people at random - can only really be done in a technologically advanced society and would imo mark your actual control of society by a technological elite because the people randomly selected would be reliant on their advice for what to do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> View attachment 178252


perhaps you could express any difference of opinion in words too


----------



## chilango (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they already have let a lot of people down



...but not the people funding them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

chilango said:


> ...but not the people funding them.


who pays the piper calls the tune


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could express any difference of opinion in words too



I think that captured it perfectly.
Although _"Wut?" _comes a distant second.

I hope this doesn't mean I'm one of the evil technological elite...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I think that captured it perfectly.
> Although _"Wut?" _comes a distant second.
> 
> I hope this doesn't mean I'm one of the evil technological elite...


i can explain it again if you want


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i can explain it again if you want



Yeah, go on.  I wasn't sure about the significance of "truly" random (as opposed to pseudo-random, which would do well enough for selection of this kind), and why you needed to blindly trust a (presumably unaccountable?) technological elite for such a thing to work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, go on.  I wasn't sure about the significance of "truly" random (as opposed to pseudo-random, which would do well enough for selection of this kind), and why you needed to blindly trust a (presumably unaccountable?) technological elite for such a thing to work.


it's of course easy to select people _ostensibly _ at random - you could pop yourself at kings cross and select every seventh person departing the mainline station in the morning rush hour, for example, or take the first customer to enter every pub named the red lion (the commonest pub name, btw) in the country. but as you'd doubtless tell me there are problems with the pool of people in each case you'd be selecting - probably people with jobs in the first instance or possible problem drinkers in the second. the genuinely random selection of people, selecting from all possible members of the public, can't be so easily done and would require a computer. this increases the probability, imo, that those selected are more likely to rely on advice from a technocratic elite, whose apparently impartial advice would form the basis for the evidence on which decisions would be taken. i don't myself think the method of random selection is as important as this second factor, but frankly i was bored and wondered what would happen.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's of course easy to select people _ostensibly _ at random - you could pop yourself at kings cross and select every seventh person departing the mainline station in the morning rush hour, for example, or take the first customer to enter every pub named the red lion (the commonest pub name, btw) in the country. but as you'd doubtless tell me there are problems with the pool of people in each case you'd be selecting - probably people with jobs in the first instance or possible problem drinkers in the second. the genuinely random selection of people, selecting from all possible members of the public, can't be so easily done and would require a computer. this increases the probability, imo, that those selected are more likely to rely on advice from a technocratic elite, whose apparently impartial advice would form the basis for the evidence on which decisions would be taken. i don't myself think the method of random selection is as important as this second factor, but frankly i was bored and wondered what would happen.



Pseudo-random generation of numbers is what computers do (they can produce variation that looks random until you *really* scrutinise it).  Where you said *truly* random I thought you meant something more like a mathematically 'pure' randomness, such as the timing of radioactive decay).  The main issue with randomly selecting people is more a matter of having a complete list of everyone you need to select from imo.  I think there is plenty of variation in what people would consider 'close enough', though, and a lower margin would be easily settled upon.

But I don't see why a computer is likely to choose people who are more likely to rely on advice from a technocratic elite (aside from the fact that people who live 'off grid' are going to try and stay off the databases).  Maybe that's not what you mean, but it reads a bit like that.

I do think that the framing of any questions put to such groups is going to be at issue, though.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the first question i've asked (the ? gives it away, you see) so i think it is relevant to my question. i haven't suggested you are advocating it.
> 
> 
> selecting people at random - truly selecting people at random - can only really be done in a technologically advanced society and would imo mark your actual control of society by a technological elite because the people randomly selected would be reliant on their advice for what to do.



To my mind a technocracy refers to the people making decisions, not the general level of advancement in society. But I'm not looking to argue the point.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> To my mind a technocracy refers to the people making decisions, not the general level of advancement in society.* But I'm not looking to argue the point*.



Then what are you doing on Urban?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> Then what are you doing on Urban?
> 
> View attachment 178260


you're not the first to wonder Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> Then what are you doing on Urban?
> 
> View attachment 178260


getting your money's worth with that pic aren'tcha!


----------



## 8ball (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> getting your money's worth with that pic aren'tcha!



Look after the pennies etc. etc.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you're not the first to wonder Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'


Fortunately this isn't your private little fief and there are other people to engage with, so bye bye you miserable old sourpuss


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Fortunately this isn't your private little fief and there are other people to engage with, so bye bye you miserable old sourpuss


ta-ra chuck


----------



## smokedout (Jul 22, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Have we had this bizarre Telegraph piece where the leaders of extinction rebellion admit one of them made a mistake in being a revolutionary, and then they go into a bizarre rant about how just-in-time inventory practices are the real problem?
> 
> I'm sympathetic to so many people involved in XR but these two are such a liability and I fear they will end up letting a lot of people down.




Sounds like they're bricking it after the Policy Exchange report tbh


----------



## kenny g (Jul 24, 2019)

Just because you found something doesn't give you any right to dictate its future.... one of the greatest feelings is watching something you create take its own path. Maybe RH and GB need to step back a bit...


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 2, 2019)

I guess it depends how much influence they have over grassroots protesters


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 5, 2019)

I'm in the local XR FB group and someone posted this: 



> Today we hold our first Grief Circle for the Ecological Crisis



What is this? I've never heard of a grief circle before, in any context? Is this an XR thing?


----------



## LDC (Aug 5, 2019)

Oh god... a grief circle.


----------



## LDC (Aug 5, 2019)

Suspending my deep cynicism and uncomfortable feeling at any displays of public emotion for a moment...

Some of this comes from the ideas of deep ecology, which is/used to be more of a thing in the US than here. I can see how it _might_ have some validity and use psychologically, and XR do have this principle of creating a regenerative culture which I can see that fitting in to here.

Anyway, back to cynicism and cringing, the fucking hippies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oh god... a grief circle.



It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 5, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oh god... a grief circle.



I don't think I would like to participate in that.


----------



## YouSir (Aug 5, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oh god... a grief circle.




My first thought was that a Grief Circle would involve everyone standing around slagging off someone in the middle. An oil baron or something. 

Yet again life has left me disappointed.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Aug 5, 2019)

Every grief circle contains at least one Julian


----------



## campanula (Aug 7, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> the fucking hippies.


,
 I am a (sorta) hippie I have worn (shudder) cheesecloth, am kind(ish) to small children and animals, and bloody love trees...but fuck me - not in a million years would you find me in such a gathering of snivellers


----------



## Celyn (Aug 7, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Suspending my deep cynicism and uncomfortable feeling at any displays of public emotion for a moment...
> 
> Some of this comes from the ideas of deep ecology, which is/used to be more of a thing in the US than here. I can see how it _might_ have some validity and use psychologically, and XR do have this principle of creating a regenerative culture which I can see that fitting in to here.
> 
> Anyway, back to cynicism and cringing, the fucking hippies.


Hmm. But. This filmed performance of "look at my deep sorrow for the land".

I hadn't thought that Earth First! was into such self-looking, performative drama as that.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 7, 2019)

campanula said:


> ,
> I am a (sorta) hippie I have worn (shudder) cheesecloth, am kind(ish) to small children and animals, and bloody love trees...but fuck me - not in a million years would you find me in such a gathering of snivellers


Why do you shudder at cheesecloth?	  I liked cheesecloth. I liked the whole "not bother to iron it" thing about it. It was perfect for a summer top. By the time my Mum bought me a cheesecloth smock (very "Wurzels), I suppose the fashion had gone but I liked it lot - cool (I mean in terms of temperature, not trendy cool), 

I do keep hoping that there will suddenly be a retro fashion, then the shops might be flooded with it, then the charity shops would. Then I can buy it. It's is great. Plus you can, of course, use it in making crowdie, cheese _etc.  

(Oops. I don't mean that people are meant to eat it)_


----------



## LDC (Aug 7, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Hmm. But. This filmed performance of "look at my deep sorrow for the land".
> 
> I hadn't thought that Earth First! was into such self-looking, performative drama as that.



Bits of the US Earth First! scene were in the 1980s. It faded away quite quickly.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 7, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Bits of the US Earth First! scene were in the 1980s. It faded away quite quickly.



Dunno.  One of our hunt sabs got trapped in a ritual space at that EF! Gathering in Snowdonia (Council of all Living Beings?) and still hasn't quite recovered.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Why do you shudder at cheesecloth?	  I liked cheesecloth. I liked the whole "not bother to iron it" thing about it. It was perfect for a summer top. By the time my Mum bought me a cheesecloth smock (very "Wurzels), I suppose the fashion had gone but I liked it lot - cool (I mean in terms of temperature, not trendy cool),
> 
> I do keep hoping that there will suddenly be a retro fashion, then the shops might be flooded with it, then the charity shops would. Then I can buy it. It's is great. Plus you can, of course, use it in making crowdie, cheese _etc.
> 
> (Oops. I don't mean that people are meant to eat it)_


If you'd seen what cheesecloth gets up to when it thinks no one is looking you'd shudder too


----------



## campanula (Aug 7, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Why do you shudder at cheesecloth?



possibly because i looked like a misshappen lump of ambulant cheddar (yes, I too had smocks...possibly muslin). That crinkly  texture wasn't very nice to wear and shredded at the drop of a hat  and I was a complete fail at the 70s emaciated, breastless, straight centre parted hair look. Crepe de Chine was a more upmarket but equally grisly version of the rumpled, just climbed out of a haystack look which I mostly recall from the 70s.I haven't ironed anything for 4 decades.

OMG - panne velvet and wet look cire. 70s  textiles were absolutely in the vanguard of the artificial fabric revolution. I do not miss them.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> If you'd seen what cheesecloth gets up to when it thinks no one is looking you'd shudder too


How do you know what it is thinking?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 7, 2019)

Celyn said:


> How do you know what it is thinking?


you'd know if you saw it


----------



## campanula (Aug 7, 2019)

Pickman's model -penetrating  the mysteries of warp and weft.


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 7, 2019)

They have been in Birmingham today protesting outside the McDonald’s on the Bristol Road between 7 and 10AM (this is a big junction for people wanting to get into / out of town). Every seven minutes they blocked the road, then unblocked it then blocked it again.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 7, 2019)

The thing about that grief circle is that if I were a tree in a forest I would be pretty annoyed with a group of people coming into my area and screaming and snivvelling for hours. If they made some decent music or read poetry or acted out some bits of shakespeare I would be mildly entertained but that noise would start to grate. Have they no empathy for us trees?


----------



## mx wcfc (Aug 7, 2019)

This is the the take from my local labour party.  Sorry it's the wrong way round.

I have voted Labour down here, where thre is no point at all.  But this prick is so opposed to any sort of civil disobedience, and is a local Labour name, I may as well vote fucking Liberal.


----------



## mx wcfc (Aug 7, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> This is the the take from my local labour part


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 13, 2019)

*



			
				XR said:
			
		


			The International Rebellion is less than 2 months away.

From October 7th at 10am, we will be in full-blown rebellion against our governments in multiple cities and continents...

In the UK, the plan is to peacefully shut down all roads into Westminster in Central London and nonviolently disrupt the government until our leaders agree to TAKE EMERGENCY ACTION NOW. Other nonviolent actions will target the corporations, ministries and infrastructure that maintain our toxic system. Read more details here.

Politicians have thus far talked the talk but failed to act in a way that is appropriate for the situation. Their 2050 net-zero target and powerless citizens' assembly are but limp attempts to satisfy our demands, and it’s not nearly enough.
		
Click to expand...

*


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 14, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion protesters take over Cornwall beach and boats

Been getting their feet wet in St Ives and put flags up on 200 boats in Falmouth Harbour. They rowed. I like rowing at night but the bastards never asked me. Hallam did a packed talked in Penzance and another in Newquay a couple of weeks ago. Seems to be getting some real interest here. I went to a die in in Truro a couple of weeks ago to see what it was all about as the wife is getting into it. I doubt it achieved much but was a nice afternoon out with the kids.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 14, 2019)

They were all over the Brazilian Embassy in London yesterday

XR activists arrested after Brazil's Embassy daubed with paint


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 15, 2019)

I can't help thinking they should link up with broader working class movements, like DPAC or whoever. Of course climate change is serious and the effects will be/are devastating, but I just can't help being more concerned with things like welfare cuts. That's what affects me, personally speaking, most right now. Sorry


----------



## LDC (Aug 15, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I can't help thinking they should link up with broader working class movements, like DPAC or whoever. Of course climate change is serious and the effects will be/are devastating, but I just can't help being more concerned with things like welfare cuts. That's what affects me, personally speaking, most right now. Sorry



In what ways do you think that 'link up' would look like and work?

Is DPAC's focus and demographics broader, or more specific?


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 15, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In what ways do you think that 'link up' would look like and work?
> 
> Is DPAC's focus and demographics broader, or more specific?


Just a broader working class movement that opposes the systems behind all of these oppressions. Maybe when DPAC (whom i mentioned just as an example) next protest, XR people could link up.


----------



## smokedout (Aug 15, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Just a broader working class movement that opposes the systems behind all of these oppressions. Maybe when DPAC (whom i mentioned just as an example) next protest, XR people could link up.



I think there's a lot of potential for a movement that implicitly contains the message that working class people  are not to blame for climate change, and that the poor especially do not have to change their behaviour on an individual level when it comes to consumption.  Climate change is being done to us, for the enrichment of those who already oppress us, and whilst it's not our fault it is in our interests to try and prevent it.  And within that context, as well as attacking the rich for destroying our plane,t there is a lot to fight for that would actually benefit working clas lives - better and much cheaper public transport, forcing landlords to improve energy effciency, more allotment space and green spaces for our kids to play in.  There are lots of things that could be demanded that would benefit our lives and whilst they may not make a huge change to the amount of CO2 being pumped out they might help foster a genuine bottom up movement against climate change rather than what is often now perceived now as a bunch of middle class hypocrites making our grannies feel guilty for putting the heating on.


----------



## chilango (Aug 15, 2019)

This all depends on XR's aims.

To challenge capitalism or to call for it to make an emergency intervention.


----------



## LDC (Aug 15, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I think there's a lot of potential for a movement that implicitly contains the message that working class people  are not to blame for climate change, and that the poor especially do not have to change their behaviour on an individual level when it comes to consumption.  Climate change is being done to us, for the enrichment of those who already oppress us, and whilst it's not our fault it is in our interests to try and prevent it.  And within that context, as well as attacking the rich for destroying our plane,t there is a lot to fight for that would actually benefit working clas lives - better and much cheaper public transport, forcing landlords to improve energy effciency, more allotment space and green spaces for our kids to play in.  There are lots of things that could be demanded that would benefit our lives and whilst they may not make a huge change to the amount of CO2 being pumped out they might help foster a genuine bottom up movement against climate change rather than what is often now perceived now as a bunch of middle class hypocrites making our grannies feel guilty for putting the heating on.



I largely agree, although I think that movement would look very different to XR just going on a few isolated smaller protests on 'other issues' that arguably have more specific focus and a narrower demographic attending.

I also have _some_ sympathy with the idea that that is a long term project, and it's what people try and consistently fail to do anyway, and the current situation with climate change doesn't allow for that time frame.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Aug 15, 2019)

There are some DPAC campaigners who are also XR campaigners


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 15, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> There are some DPAC campaigners who are also XR campaigners


Of course, but those are individual examples, of which I hope there are many (and I'm sure there are). But XR is perceived only within the area of climate change and seems, according to Roger Hallam, to have one goal: get people arrested thus causing a the public to say "that's not cricket!" and shame the state into enacting whatever he defines as a climate emergency, in legislative/poliicy terms


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Of course, but those are individual examples, of which I hope there are many (and I'm sure there are). But XR is perceived only within the area of climate change and seems, according to Roger Hallam, to have one goal: get people arrested thus causing a the public to say "that's not cricket!" and shame the state into enacting whatever he defines as a climate emergency, in legislative/poliicy terms


they seem to have two goals, the one to spread awareness of the severity of the climate issues facing us and the second to force a change in government policy. but they seem to have acquired a third, namely fundraising at which they have been significantly more successful that any other extra-parliamentary pressure group of which i'm aware. i don't know that they are a left-wing, or affect to be a left-wing, organisation, so i think it would be sheer folly to assume they are and proceed on that assumption.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they seem to have two goals, the one to spread awareness of the severity of the climate issues facing us and the second to force a change in government policy. but they seem to have acquired a third, namely fundraising at which they have been significantly more successful that any other extra-parliamentary pressure group of which i'm aware. i don't know that they are a left-wing, or affect to be a left-wing, organisation, so i think it would be sheer folly to assume they are and proceed on that assumption.



Not left wing as stated policy, but the members I know are mostly lefties with a few floppy centrists.  I don't think you'll find many right-wingers amongst them (though I'm sure you'll find one if you dig a bit).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 15, 2019)

8ball said:


> Not left wing as stated policy, but the members I know are mostly lefties with a few floppy centrists.  I don't think you'll find many right-wingers amongst them (though I'm sure you'll find one if you dig a bit).


From what I'm told there's at least one former cop


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 15, 2019)

XR* are now specifically calling for a 'movement of movements' and re orienting the October Rebellion towards attacking (inconveniencing) the elite.

*inasmuch as XR has a single voice.


----------



## LDC (Aug 15, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> XR* are now specifically calling for a 'movement of movements' and re orienting the October Rebellion towards attacking (inconveniencing) the elite.
> 
> *inasmuch as XR has a single voice.



How have the discussions gone re: how the police might react to this next plan? Has the shut down Heathrow plan been shelved?


----------



## chilango (Aug 15, 2019)

They'll be just like Greenpeace before you know it.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 15, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> How have the discussions gone re: how the police might react to this next plan? Has the shut down Heathrow plan been shelved?



Heathrow has been shelved indefinitely - although some of the chieftains are still in favour and might do it as a "non XR" action. 

There is such  multiplicity of discussions, meetings , WhatsApp groups etc etc that it's virtually impossible to get a handle on anything, even a real sense of how big the movement is or how many people might turn up in October.


----------



## LDC (Aug 15, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Heathrow has been shelved indefinitely - although some of the chieftains are still in favour and might do it as a "non XR" action.
> 
> There is such  multiplicity of discussions, meetings , WhatsApp groups etc etc that it's virtually impossible to get a handle on anything, even a real sense of how big the movement is or how many people might turn up in October.



Yeah, I've been trying to get a bit of a handle on it by reading some of the web output (and chatting to some of the people involved up here) and it could easily be a full time project, the scale of the thing is impressive.

And thank fuck Heathrow has been shelved, totally the wrong direction I think.


----------



## salem (Aug 15, 2019)

I can't shake the fear that XR is a convenient but largely harmless distracting force from the right wing coup, cunting about of democracy, large scale transfer of wealth and general brexit/alt-right related shite that's smearing the country lately.

The fact that they pretty much got a free pass to take over Waterloo Bridge/Oxford Circus earlier in the year seemed just a little too easy.

I hope I'm wrong and I don't doubt the good intentions of those involved but I can't see them as anything but a convenient smokescreen.


----------



## LDC (Aug 15, 2019)

salem said:


> I can't shake the fear that XR is a convenient but largely harmless distracting force from the right wing coup, cunting about of democracy, large scale transfer of wealth and general brexit/alt-right related shite that's smearing the country lately.
> 
> The fact that they pretty much got a free pass to take over Waterloo Bridge/Oxford Circus earlier in the year seemed just a little too easy.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong and I don't doubt the good intentions of those involved but I can't see them as anything but a convenient smokescreen.



I don't get what you're saying, that it's somehow started and/or engineered purposefully to distract from those things, or just that its appearance is timely for them?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 15, 2019)

chilango said:


> This all depends on XR's aims.
> 
> To challenge capitalism or to call for it to make an emergency intervention.



And which do you reckon they’re opting for?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 15, 2019)

Rhetorical question btw.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 15, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And which do you reckon they’re opting for?



Increasingly adopting an anti capitalist line, which is what you'd expect.


----------



## salem (Aug 15, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I don't get what you're saying, that it's somehow started and/or engineered purposefully to distract from those things, or just that its appearance is timely for them?


I don't know, probably more a convenience that's being taken advantage of than something that was engineered from the start. Anyway just idle thinking rather than firm accusation.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 15, 2019)

This is kind of interesting..a sign that the Overton window is shifting..?

Workers Seize the Shipyard That Built the Titanic, Plan to Make Renewable Energy There - VICE


----------



## Anju (Aug 19, 2019)

Good interview. Apparently they are expecting to be physically attacked once government realise they're serious and not going away.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 20, 2019)

Maybe this will help

Extinction Rebellion founder calls for mass psychedelic disobedience | New Scientist


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 20, 2019)

Things escalating in Australia with random search powers based on utter bollocks:

Queensland police to get new powers to search climate change protesters
Queensland government accused of 'fabricating' claims about climate activists

I can't even get cross about it because it's such a predictable pattern. It really is just what anyone would expect to happen.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 30, 2019)

This is what tory MP David TC Davies has been busy doing this week. Writing a letter to pop group the 1975 and then tweeting it to express how pissed off he is with their support of Extinction Rebellion.


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> This is what tory MP David TC Davies has been busy doing this week. Writing a letter to pop group the 1975 and then tweeting it to express how pissed off he is with their support of Extinction Rebellion.



The responses are entertaining, mind.


----------



## andysays (Sep 6, 2019)

XR's pink boat spotted on the move in Tottenham earlier


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Sep 6, 2019)

Nice big Mitsubishi L200 diesel motor pulling it along...


----------



## kenny g (Sep 6, 2019)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Nice big Mitsubishi L200 diesel motor pulling it along...



EURO 6B   https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ViewVehicle


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 11, 2019)

This from a couple of days ago. They don't seem to have learned how cops work. Hallam offers no actual evidence this works, he just assumes, because he's got a degree in it, that it will work.


----------



## LDC (Sep 11, 2019)

He's gone full on delusional.


----------



## rekil (Sep 11, 2019)

Don't get battered/arrested for this loon.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He's gone full on delusional.



Technically now disaffiliated from Extinction Rebellion- haha.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 11, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He's gone full on delusional.


His position is theoretical, it is not based on any experience. He's studied this as part of a degree or summat (i don't recall) and thinks that the idea will work in reality. I can't fault him for that, but this tactic is clearly ill advised at best. I mean,,,spycops?


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 11, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Technically now disaffiliated from Extinction Rebellion- haha.


Really?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> This from a couple of days ago. They don't seem to have learned how cops work. Hallam offers no actual evidence this works, he just assumes, because he's got a degree in it, that it will work.



i watched the first three minutes of it and gave up and i was reminded of frankie howerd and the prologue in up pompeii, although there was more sense in up pompeii


----------



## LDC (Sep 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i watched the first three minutes of it and gave up and i was reminded of frankie howerd and the prologue in up pompeii, although there was more sense in up pompeii



There's _a few_ small bits that are OK, or that might be worth further thinking about and discussion, but it's mostly just a fairly incoherent ramble of his particular predictable position that he also seems to think is somewhat new and radical, rather than it just being what every liberal and hippie has droned on about for decades.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Really?



Well yes, following a big stink kicked up by nearly everyone around the Heathrow drone action it was decided to carry it out as an "unaffiliated" action.  Roger Hallam is the main proponent of that action. Doesn't seem to have stopped him acting as spokesman for XR or drawing a stipend.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 11, 2019)

Am i detecting a little cynicism?

OK the guys a hippie, but the essential point that there is a juggernaught of shit coming quickly towards us all seems irrefutable?   i'm frightened for my kids, and i share that fear with many others - so im prepared to overlook any failings that the messenger may have and listen carefully to the vital message.  We know that direct action has succeeded many times in history from female suffrage to civil rights etc,  surely we can hope that humanity can get its act together and try to intervene to prevent famine driven social collapse?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> There's _a few_ small bits that are OK, or that might be worth further thinking about and discussion, but it's mostly just a fairly incoherent ramble of his particular predictable position that he also seems to think is somewhat new and radical, rather than it just being what every liberal and hippie has droned on about for decades.



That does seem to be the modern way, why write three paragraphs when a rambling two hour monologue on YouTube will do?


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 11, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Well yes, following a big stink kicked up by nearly everyone around the Heathrow drone action it was decided to carry it out as an "unaffiliated" action.  Roger Hallam is the main proponent of that action. Doesn't seem to have stopped him acting as spokesman for XR or drawing a stipend.


But that doesn't mean they have disavowed him as you seem to imply. Do you have any sources?


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 11, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Am i detecting a little cynicism?
> 
> OK the guys a hippie, but the essential point that there is a juggernaught of shit coming quickly towards us all seems irrefutable?   i'm frightened for my kids, and i share that fear with many others - so im prepared to overlook any failings that the messenger may have and listen carefully to the vital message.  We know that direct action has succeeded many times in history from female suffrage to civil rights etc,  surely we can hope that humanity can get its act together and try to intervene to prevent famine driven social collapse?


I agree, we all do I hope. But that isn't going to be solved by pandering to the cops though surely


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> But that doesn't mean they have disavowed him as you seem to imply. Do you have any sources?



They haven't disavowed him . That's my point. Sorry if I wasn't being clear.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I agree, we all do I hope. But that isn't going to be solved by pandering to the cops though surely



In some senses what he's saying is true. If you approach the police before an action and say that it's going to be peaceful and symbolic and you're of the right demographic then they probably won't turn up with batons drawn.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I agree, we all do I hope. But that isn't going to be solved by pandering to the cops though surely



Not read the thread so unaware of main argument re the coppers.  On the assumption that it relates to the state's inevitable resort to violence if  ER activities begin to threaten the interests of the wealthy id suggest that a non violent response in the Ghandian tradition is unlikely to be effective - as ever, the key will be to mobilise numbers - sounds easy dont it? But the coppers will be cautious if they are massively outnumbered.  If some uniformed thug starts laying into you in the interests of capital, then they must realistically expect physical resistance.   i'm not for turning the other cheek.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Roger Hallam just been nicked pre emptively in London,  presumably to do with plans to fly drones near Heathrow. 

Two Heathrow Pause activists 'preemptively' arrested


----------



## 8ball (Sep 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He's gone full on delusional.



It seems like the sort of thing that will work _for a while_. 
Until it doesn't, then it's not going to be fun.

But then in the video above that, he seems fully aware of this.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 12, 2019)

Well it appears to have just stopped working.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

i fear for Roger Hallam.  The corrupt and powerful forces that Extinction Rebellion are taking on will not hesitate to crush prominent eco radicals if necessary - yet its not clear that ER recognise this.  Hallam's admirable integrity coupled to the astronomic success of ER thus far make him a clear target for the gangster element of the establishment, who will regard him as having about the same significance as a cockroach in the kitchen. 

His naive style shouldn't blind anyone to the fact that he is one courageous comrade - and i'm inclined to raise a fist in solidarity with both him and his pal Mike Lynch Whyte.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 12, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Well it appears to have just stopped working.



What, with a couple of pre-emptive arrests?
Or has something else happened?


----------



## smokedout (Sep 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> What, with a couple of pre-emptive arrests?



Well yes, if you inform the police in advance you are planning to commit a crime then the police have a mechanism to stop you.  Most activists traditionally have not needed a practical demonstration of this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Roger Hallam just been nicked pre emptively in London,  presumably to do with plans to fly drones near Heathrow.
> 
> Two Heathrow Pause activists 'preemptively' arrested


Fucking numpties. The master criminal always makes a fatal error and hallam's was to tell the police he was conspiring to fly drones round heathrow


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

Does anyone know how long the arrestees can be kept in the cells?

Conspiracy seems an open ended type reason for arrest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Well yes, if you inform the police in advance you are planning to commit a crime then the police have a mechanism to stop you.  Most activists traditionally have not needed a practical demonstration of this.


All activists now have a practical example to point to.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

Remember the Shrewsbury pickets were slammed up in 1972 for conspiring to 'intimidate' their way to a £1:00 an hour minimum wage.

Naive Roger has stated ER's serious intention of overthrowing the Carbon economy and capitalism.  On that basis he might have a long white beard when he finally sees the light of day.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

Poor old Roger, it's a bit of a shame XR catastrophically alienated all the relevant activist groups and firms while refusing to build up its own court support networks really, he might've been a bit better off now if they hadn't done that.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Poor old Roger, it's a bit of a shame XR catastrophically alienated all the relevant activist groups and firms while refusing to build up its own court support networks really, he might've been a bit better off now if they hadn't done that.



He'll be fine. You overestimate your own importance.  

XR does have it's own court support networks.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Poor old Roger, it's a bit of a shame XR catastrophically alienated all the relevant activist groups and firms while refusing to build up its own court support networks really, he might've been a bit better off now if they hadn't done that.



As a wide eyed unsophisticate myself i know not of what you refer to?  How would a gullible hippy alienate anyone?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Fucking numpties. The master criminal always makes a fatal error and hallam's was to tell the police he was conspiring to fly drones round heathrow



He's deliberately sought martyrdom and a media profile. He's like Shambala's answer to Tommy Robinson.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> He'll be fine. You overestimate your own importance.
> 
> XR does have it's own court support networks.



I'm not important at all. Bindmans and ITN on the other hand are. And I'm well aware of what XR laughably calls its "support networks", such as that How To they put out which suggested prison can be quite fun actually and the guards are mostly black.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 12, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Does anyone know how long the arrestees can be kept in the cells?
> 
> Conspiracy seems an open ended type reason for arrest.



Unless held on suspicion of terrorist offences (an increasingly broad category that has been stretched to include certain forms of peaceful protest) or conspiracy to commit same a person can only be held without charge for 24 hours. Once charged you will either be released with or without bail conditions or remanded in custody.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I'm not important at all. Bindmans and ITN on the other hand are. And I'm well aware of what XR laughably calls its "support networks", such as that How To they put out which suggested prison can be quite fun actually and the guards are mostly black.



Bindmans are a commercial operation and will (and are) representing Extinction Rebellion defendants. Not sure who ITN are in this context.

The prison guide you are referring to was withdrawn months ago. Nobody is entirely clear as to who authored it.

What has been set up are regional arrestee support groups to help people through the arrest and court process. They've been  quite effective at police station  and court support.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> He'll be fine. You overestimate your own importance.
> 
> XR does have it's own court support networks.



The Green and Black Cross statement on why they're no longer supporting XR, which includes an excoriation of XR's in house legal advice, is worth reading. The crux of it is that XR are either deliberately getting their activists in more trouble than necessary (for example by publicising police conditions on protests so that nobody can say in their defence that they were unaware of them) or they're just shit-eatingly stupid.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Unless held on suspicion of terrorist offences (an increasingly broad category that has been stretched to include certain forms of peaceful protest) or conspiracy to commit same a person can only be held without charge for 24 hours. Once charged you will either be released with or without bail conditions or remanded in custody.


Thank you SpookyFrank.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

redcogs said:


> As a wide eyed unsophisticate myself i know not of what you refer to?  How would a gullible hippy alienate anyone?



That was a wider XR thing, essentially they alienated the lawyers by giving shit legal advice, pissed off ACAB by doing one training session on legal observing then bringing out their own version with massive errors, and temporarily collapsed GBC by assuming it was some sort of service that could deal with the fallout of hundreds of people getting arrested out of the blue. I had a chat with one of their self-described "unarrestables" a wee while back (people who regard themselves as core organisers - he seriously referred to himself as a "sort of general"), and the man was talking about leading legal support workshops after one intro day with ACAB while not knowing the names of the relevant legal firms, let along the intricacies of protest policing and rights more generally. Bonkers.

Edit: Oh yeah a friend of mine who was involved in a local group setup process told me about the regional networks, which essentially has consisted of the core XR team telling local groups "you're on your own, good luck". She was less than impressed, though yes, I'm sure some of them will be working pretty hard.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> The Green and Black Cross statement on why they're no longer supporting XR, which includes an excoriation of XR's in house legal advice, is worth reading. The crux of it is that XR are either deliberately getting their activists in more trouble than necessary (for example by publicising police conditions on protests so that nobody can say in their defence that they were unaware of them) or they're just shit-eatingly stupid.



They're not stupid , there are a number of legitimate criticisms to be made of Extinction Rebellion but stupidity of the leadership isn't one of them. 

They know what they're doing. I'm constantly surprised at how the anarchist movement here expects to be able to lecture XR on do's and don'ts. From what lofty pulpit of success might we ask?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> That was a wider XR thing, essentially they alienated the lawyers by giving shit legal advice, pissed off ACAB by doing one training session on legal observing then bringing out their own version with massive errors, and temporarily collapsed GBC by assuming it was some sort of service that could deal with the fallout of hundreds of people getting arrested out of the blue. I had a chat with one of their self-described "unarrestables" a wee while back (people who regard themselves as core organisers - he seriously referred to himself as a "sort of general"), and the man was talking about leading legal support workshops after one intro day with ACAB while not knowing the names of the relevant legal firms, let along the intricacies of protest policing and rights more generally. Bonkers.
> 
> Edit: Oh yeah a friend of mine who was involved in a regional setup told me about the regional networks, which essentially has consisted of the core XR team telling local groups "you're on your own, good luck". She was less than impressed, though yes, I'm sure some of them will be working pretty hard.



Alienated the lawyers? Which firms aren't working with them?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> They're not stupid



Then they're throwing people under the bus on purpose. Stupid is the better of the two possibilities tbh.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> That was a wider XR thing, essentially they alienated the lawyers by giving shit legal advice, pissed off ACAB by doing one training session on legal observing then bringing out their own version with massive errors, and temporarily collapsed GBC by assuming it was some sort of service that could deal with the fallout of hundreds of people getting arrested out of the blue. I had a chat with one of their self-described "unarrestables" a wee while back (people who regard themselves as core organisers - he seriously referred to himself as a "sort of general"), and the man was talking about leading legal support workshops after one intro day with ACAB while not knowing the names of the relevant legal firms, let along the intricacies of protest policing and rights more generally. Bonkers.
> 
> Edit: Oh yeah a friend of mine who was involved in a local group setup process told me about the regional networks, which essentially has consisted of the core XR team telling local groups "you're on your own, good luck". She was less than impressed, though yes, I'm sure some of them will be working pretty hard.



Appreciated Rob Ray thanks.  i'm late to the topic and have no experience of XR, but im getting an impression of an apprentice type organisation on a learning curve.  We all started somewhere and at that time we each had much to learn?  i find myself sympathetic towards XR and reckon sectarian type attitudes towards them (im not accusing anyone, just making a general point) aint that helpful. They will learn quickly from mistakes?


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> I'm constantly surprised at how the anarchist movement here expects to be able to lecture XR on do's and don'ts.



I get that you might think criticism = jealousy or activistoid gatekeeping whatever, that's not uncommon on the left, but this isn't about high horses or willy-waving. What it's about is thousands of people potentially getting into trouble because they've been given bad legal advice and very little support. Believe it or not the anarchist movement does actually have some people involved who have a bit of experience on that front - and I'm not one of the folks with years of LO/protest savvy but even I know enough, for example, to make damn sure to tell mates not to sign a document saying "yes of course I'll commit a crime in the cause of XR" because that's a conspiracy charge in the making. 



Red Sky said:


> Alienated the lawyers? Which firms aren't working with them?



You can work that one out by knowing who the recommended firms are and noting which of them are not talking about XR - though from what I hear even Bindmans, which is representing the thousand-odd people going the courts, isn't exactly thrilled by the whole thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 12, 2019)

redcogs said:


> They will learn quickly from mistakes?



They've been offered plenty of sound advice in good faith and seemingly ignored all of it.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They've been offered plenty of sound advice in good faith and seemingly ignored all of it.



Eg. That conspiracy-bait document they got multiple complaints about in November last year which is still up.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I get that you might think criticism = jealousy or activistoid gatekeeping whatever, that's not uncommon on the left, but this isn't about high horses or willy-waving. What it's about is thousands of people potentially getting into trouble because they've been given bad legal advice and very little support. Believe it or not the anarchist movement does actually have some people involved who have a bit of experience on that front - and I'm not one of the folks with years of LO/protest savvy but even I know enough, for example, to make damn sure to tell mates not to sign a document saying "yes of course I'll commit a crime in the cause of XR" because that's a conspiracy charge in the making.
> 
> 
> 
> You can work that one out by knowing who the recommended firms are and noting which of them are not talking about XR - though from what I hear even Bindmans, which is representing the thousand-odd people going the courts, isn't exactly thrilled by the whole thing.



Bindmans, Hodge Jones Allen,  Kelly's etc are all representing XR defendants. They are the GBC recommended firms.  So I don't think your point stands.

There has been quite an extraordinary amount of willy waving from high horses. It's a mark of the sad decline of the ecological anarchist movement really.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> They've been offered plenty of sound advice in good faith and seemingly ignored all of it.


Which is poor of course.  But presumably XR's  main mission is not to get their support base in loads of bother just for the hell of it, or just because they can?   Maybe their decision making structures need some modification.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> There has been quite an extraordinary amount of willy waving from high horses. It's a mark of the sad decline of the ecological anarchist movement really.



Tbh I think that line says more about the lens you're seeing things through than it does about the people criticising XR.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Tbh I think that line says more about the lens you're seeing things through than it does about the people criticising XR.



It's been relentless criticism,  often  in bad faith,  and little or no constructive engagement.

The anarchist movement used to be able to mobilise thousands not dozens.  What happened?


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

ER seem to have found a rich seam of opposition to the nightmare of freemarket petrochemical inspired death for billions.  Good luck and power to em is my attitude, somethings got to change pretty soon.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

You're rather proving my point there Red Sky given criticism of XR certainly hasn't been relentless, nor is it unconstructive. GBC's article saying they couldn't work with XR any more for example showcases a group that made a lot of supportive effort, was constructive in its criticisms and even when it was in a state of collapse, was still offering good advice. ACAB hasn't published any public takedowns, GAF is clear with its praise even while noting problems — in fact afaik you'd be hard-pressed to find any anarchist group just straight up slagging them. And personally I think this is the first time I've posted anything critical on the subject in quite a while.

Edit: Also you're the one who keeps bringing numbers up, not me - who's willy-waving?


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> It's been relentless criticism,  often  in bad faith,  and little or no constructive engagement.
> 
> The anarchist movement used to be able to mobilise thousands not dozens.  What happened?



We've all lost our way a bit these last decades.  But this moment is beginning to feel a bit like i remember the 1970s were. i know they ended badly, with Thatch etc, but the hope that was generated by the early 70s struggles..  Maybe there is room for some optimism?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> You're rather proving my point there Red Sky given criticism of XR certainly hasn't been relentless, nor is it unconstructive. GBC's article saying they couldn't work with XR any more for example showcases a group that made a lot of supportive effort, was constructive in its criticisms and even when it was in a state of collapse, was still offering good advice. ACAB hasn't published any public takedowns, GAF is clear with its praise even while noting problems — in fact afaik you'd be hard-pressed to find any anarchist group just straight up slagging them. And personally I think this is the first time I've posted anything critical on the subject in quite a while.



Ha ha... just have a quick scroll thorough the relevant Twitter accounts.  London Anti Fascist Assembly,  Libcom , Freedom etc . It's downright unhealthy.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> They're not stupid , there are a number of legitimate criticisms to be made of Extinction Rebellion but stupidity of the leadership isn't one of them.



He may not be stupid but he is arrogant and wrong.  He is wrong to say the climate science says that social collapse in the UK within ten years is inevitable, he is wrong that there is evidence pointing to his personal style of NVDA being the most effective in bringing about regime change, he is wrong to assume that anyone will give a shit if a few climate activists land in jail, he is wrong about the police being friends and on our side really, he is wrong to dismiss the legal advice he had been repeteadly given and he is wrong to be part of an undemocratic, unaccountable organisation which he appears to use as his own personal chequebook.  Also he comes across like an eccentric old drunk and I cant think of a worse spokesperson for the type of movement he hopes to foster which aims to reach beyond activist hippy ghettoes.  Everything about him is wrong, and the people getting nicked and putting their livlihoods on the line deserve better because it is them that have made XR what it is, not him, he should shut up.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

Thats pretty clear


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Ha ha... just have a quick scroll thorough the relevant Twitter accounts.  London Anti Fascist Assembly,  Libcom , Freedom etc . It's downright unhealthy.



The libcom Twitter history is pretty enlightening, inasmuch as a) they're not slagging off arrestees or activists, but the leadership (same people I've been critical of here in fact) at the rate of a "relentless" 1-3 posts per month b) what they do go after is genuinely some pretty dodgy shit happening under the XR umbrella, which would be bad to just bury tbh.

The Freedom account meanwhile consists mostly of prisoner and arrestee support, two articles from other groups (to wit, GBC and GAF statements, neither unconstructive) and a couple of posts asking them to take the conspiracy google doc file down. At a rate of less than one a month.

Again, I feel like this is largely making my point about the lens you're looking through for me.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

smokedout said:


> He may not be stupid but he is arrogant and wrong.  He is wrong to say the climate science says that social collapse in the UK within ten years is inevitable, he is wrong that there is evidence pointing to his personal style of NVDA being the most effective in bringing about regime change, he is wrong to assume that anyone will give a shit if a few climate activists land in jail, he is wrong about the police being friends and on our side really, he is wrong to dismiss the legal advice he had been repeteadly given and he is wrong to be part of an undemocratic, unaccountable organisation which he appears to use as his own personal chequebook.  Also he comes across like an eccentric old drunk and I cant think of a worse spokesperson for the type of movement he hopes to foster which aims to reach beyond activist hippy ghettoes.  Everything about him is wrong, and the people getting nicked and putting their livlihoods on the line deserve better because it is them that have made XR what it is, not him, he should shut up.



Yep. All those things, well most of them. Although they're criticisms of Hallam rather than XR.  

I'm genuinely torn.  I've been kicking around the movement/scene for nearly thirty years now. I've seen how badly it's fallen to bits in the last five years particularly.  I can see the glaring faults with XR , but it is a movement that is alive,  not stagnant.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> it is a movement that is alive, not stagnant.



That I agree with. But support means more than just cheerleading, it sometimes means telling people things they don't want to hear because bad consequences, that we know about, have happened before. We know how the cops work. We know some of their underhand tactics and that there's laws which they're not pulling out yet but will, and when they do people get hurt. There's people in court right now over spycops (and you can bet your lunch the next generation of those scumbags are out and about as we speak), there's anti-fracking activists getting hammered by their injunctions, there's liaison officers trying to wheedle key info out of people. When XR's leadership wave their hands airily about that stuff it _matters_.

Bear in mind, the cops know this playbook. They've had strategies for sit-down protests since the 1950s, they have the same historic map of how protest escalation works that we do. They're already prepared for the next likely step of XR's evolution as people get frustrated with static protest not working and move to more active forms of dissent. Their tactics will involve pre-prep such as identifying key figures to fuck up well ahead of time. If XR's leadership can't be smart or responsible then the membership needs that critical info direct and asap.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 12, 2019)

smokedout said:


> He may not be stupid but he is arrogant and wrong.  He is wrong to say the climate science says that social collapse in the UK within ten years is inevitable, he is wrong that there is evidence pointing to his personal style of NVDA being the most effective in bringing about regime change, he is wrong to assume that anyone will give a shit if a few climate activists land in jail, he is wrong about the police being friends and on our side really, he is wrong to dismiss the legal advice he had been repeteadly given and he is wrong to be part of an undemocratic, unaccountable organisation which he appears to use as his own personal chequebook.  Also he comes across like an eccentric old drunk and I cant think of a worse spokesperson for the type of movement he hopes to foster which aims to reach beyond activist hippy ghettoes.  Everything about him is wrong, and the people getting nicked and putting their livlihoods on the line deserve better because it is them that have made XR what it is, not him, he should shut up.



Certainly eccentric, but i find the hippy charm quite refreshing.  Its hard to know what a template for an ideal leader might be, but we've had enough suits surely? Unfortunately there's no shortage of arrogance in leadership circles, and where its identified it needs relentlessly exposing and ruthlessly controlling 'from below'.  Any new organisation will need significant architectural change as its developing?


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## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> That I agree with. But support means more than just cheerleading, it sometimes means telling people things they don't want to hear because bad consequences, that we know about, have happened before. We know how the cops work. We know some of their underhand tactics and that there's laws which they're not pulling out yet but will, and when they do people get hurt. There's people in court right now over spycops (and you can bet your lunch the next generation of those scumbags are out and about as we speak), there's anti-fracking activists getting hammered by their injunctions, there's liaison officers trying to wheedle key info out of people. When XR's leadership wave their hands airily about that stuff it _matters_.



We're not half as clever as we think we are. We also failed and are continuing to fail. 

XRs tactics in some ways take all this into account.  What's the point in spycops if everything's out in the open anyway? 

They're not trying to organise in the same ways eco anarchists did 20 years ago. I look back at those uber paranoid swallow yer SIM card and eat the map meetings that had  actual police officers in the room and laugh. I mean really,  is that the lesson we're trying to teach?

XR at its best is about mass movement building,  trying to create a genuine cultural shift. That requires openness.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Poor old Roger, it's a bit of a shame XR catastrophically alienated all the relevant activist groups and firms while refusing to build up its own court support networks really, he might've been a bit better off now if they hadn't done that.


I suspect that like Mother Theresa, he gets special, paid for support.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> We're not half as clever as we think we are. We also failed and are continuing to fail.



I don't think we (or I!) are particularly clever, personally if I were more so maybe I'd have been able to help avoid some of the endless, draining factional nonsense that's sucked so much energy and talent out of things over the last decade. But one lesson does stick with me — the State will come for you, open or not, if it gets annoyed enough. If you're open it'll send people in anyway, just to disrupt and cause internal strife. If you're nice and legal it'll eventually pull out old anti-AR laws banning protest in specific areas to make you less so. The only real defence is to know your shit and not make silly mistakes.


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## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I don't think we (or I!) are particularly clever, personally if I were more so maybe I'd have been able to help avoid some of the endless, draining factional nonsense that's sucked so much energy and talent out of things over the last decade. But one lesson does stick with me — the State will come for you, open or not, if it gets annoyed enough. If you're open it'll send people in anyway, just to disrupt and cause internal strife. If you're nice and legal it'll eventually pull out old anti-AR laws banning protest in specific areas to make you less so. The only real defence is to know your shit and not make silly mistakes.



XR are pretty upfront about this....


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## Rob Ray (Sep 12, 2019)

They're upfront about the concept, but their practical advice is objectively bad, hence the criticisms. There's no situation where spilling your guts to a liaison officer or in a cop shop is a good idea. There's no good reason to give the police a hitlist of people prepared to break the law in your name. Legal advice is not something to hand out on the back of one half-remembered workshop. If you know the next stage of this process, and I think their leadership is counting on it, then people should be prepared so they're not rushing headlong into trouble they're not prepared for.

Pretty much all I want out of banging away about the above is for it to be taken seriously, the rest I'll happily give a thumbs-up to because, like with the rejuvenated Labour Party, I'm all in bleedin' favour of people feeling empowered to get off the sofa and start raising hell, and couldn't care less if they're a signed-up anarcho militant when doing so.


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## Red Sky (Sep 12, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> They're upfront about the concept, but their practical advice is objectively bad, hence the criticisms. There's no situation where spilling your guts to a liaison officer or in a cop shop is a good idea. There's no good reason to give the police a hitlist of people prepared to break the law in your name. Legal advice is not something to hand out on the back of one half-remembered workshop. If you know the next stage of this process, and I think their leadership is counting on it, then people should be prepared so they're not rushing headlong into trouble they're not prepared for. Pretty much all I want out of banging away about the above is for it to be taken seriously.



Which is why I got involved with giving legal workshops in the first place. 

There are times when  giving a prepared statement in the cop shop is a good idea.

This Legal Info - Extinction Rebellion isn't actually all that bad. The problem they had in April were the hundreds who rushed to get arrested without reading it.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

I did say "spill guts", and if the legal advice generally is improving that's to the good but as I say there's a ways to go, and they've lost a lot of goodwill in the meantime.

Anyhoo, on the earlier note about Roger, Carl Spender from GBC got a timely article out today which is probly of use:

Legal: Can I be ‘pre-emptively’ arrested?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2019)

smokedout said:


> He may not be stupid but he is arrogant and wrong.  He is wrong to say the climate science says that social collapse in the UK within ten years is inevitable, he is wrong that there is evidence pointing to his personal style of NVDA being the most effective in bringing about regime change, he is wrong to assume that anyone will give a shit if a few climate activists land in jail, he is wrong about the police being friends and on our side really, he is wrong to dismiss the legal advice he had been repeteadly given and he is wrong to be part of an undemocratic, unaccountable organisation which he appears to use as his own personal chequebook.  Also he comes across like an eccentric old drunk and I cant think of a worse spokesperson for the type of movement he hopes to foster which aims to reach beyond activist hippy ghettoes.  Everything about him is wrong, and the people getting nicked and putting their livlihoods on the line deserve better because it is them that have made XR what it is, not him, he should shut up.


his coming across as an eccentric auld drunk is the least objectionable thing about him


----------



## LDC (Sep 13, 2019)

I've been looking for a group to join, and in trying to figure out which one I met up with some people from one recently that most matched by politics. It has _3 or so _people in my area (area that is, not town, and it's a massive area as well) that are active, whereas a recent XR meeting in my city got well over 150 people without much effort. Yes, we can talk about their less radical and simpler to digest politics and the background of those attending etc etc, but tbh that's letting loads of us off the hook.

At the _very least_ the XR stuff should be making most of the anarchist and similar groups have a think about what are XR getting right (and yeah for sure among all the stuff they're getting wrong) that we are so spectacularly missing? And given the fact that climate related activism is only going to get more of a thing in the coming years, how can we best engage with it and help catalyze it to something more?

Just been talking to a friend from France who's excited about the links between the climate strikes and the gilets jaunes who are working together in some areas under the banner of "End of the month // end of the world. Same struggle."


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

Tbh I feel like talking about "spectacularly missing" things is a pretty unhelpful approach, not least because the movement's not actually in as bad a place as some people seem to have decided it is via a lack of presence at protests (which also isn't entirely accurate - quite a lot of people involved in XR stuff and escpecially DSEI, particularly at grassroots, are anarchists and simply not on the "organised" radar so much).

When I started out in 2003-odd there was no syndicalist presence to speak of in Britain but the tail end of summit hopping and street carnival was present. Today the street stuff is down but the IWW has grown massively, UVW has been founded and has a big anarchist influence within it etc. I'd say the level of organising around housing struggles is better, our physical institutions are more numerous and mostly more stable (eg. fundraisers are actually going on for roof fixes and the like rather than leaks being ignored) and we're planning multiple major events for next year well in advance. In terms of what I'm personally most active in, Freedom's doing better than at any point over the last 15 years both financially and as a hub for activity.

I've talked to Earth First and some of the Climate Camp folks, and their numbers have been up markedly in recent years. Fracking hasn't taken off in quite the way roads did, but there's still a lot happening. The biggest drain has been the loss of squatting as a jumping off point (the 2012 law did a _lot_ of damage), but even there the odd green shoot can be seen.

That's in the face of getting hammered by the New Left Fashion of Corbynism, massive internal fighting over trans rights and whatever the hell "idpol" is supposed to represent, and all the rest. I think we have a tendency (and maybe always have) to spend way too much time focusing on naval gazing negatives — and that is in itself a problem.


----------



## LDC (Sep 13, 2019)

For sure some of those things are happening but I think they largely are about sustaining a small scene of people already involved/engaged, and often are focused around London. In terms of wider engagement and enthusiasm for radical politics, and the ability to effectively intervene in stuff it's largely a pretty grim picture I think.

And the Labour thing is a good example of this too, are our politics so poorly articulated and lacking in power that chunks of the movement have deserted for Corbyn at the first chance?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 13, 2019)

I've just read Roger Hallams short booklet, available as a free pdf
Here
https://www.rogerhallam.com/wp-cont...-Century_by-Roger-Hallam-Download-version.pdf

On the plus side it's the most accessible and to the point 'lets have revolution' text I've read in a long time, one I expect will get a fairly wide  readership, but  was surprised that it doesn't address a single one of the points of constructive criticisms that have come XR's way. Does seem cloth eared.


----------



## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

Thing is I don't think putting people on the street necessarily indicates much more than that a decent crew of organisers has called a timely demo in an interesting way and gotten a lot of people to turn up. Yes there's a lot to be said for doing so with a strategy for radicalisation via confrontation etc, but what actually sustains this past the original excitement, and can keep things on track when the crowds get bored and/or older? Infrastructure. And we have more of that now than we used to I reckon. On Corbyn, I've said my piece here fwiw.

I'm not saying everything's rosy btw, there's a lot of problems in the movement. But I for one am sick to the back teeth of negativity — and if there's one thing I think _does_ build movements it's when people quit moaning about how bad things are and start working toward what they can be.


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## LDC (Sep 13, 2019)

ska invita said:


> I've just read Roger Hallams short booklet, available as a free pdf
> Here
> https://www.rogerhallam.com/wp-cont...-Century_by-Roger-Hallam-Download-version.pdf
> 
> On the plus side it's the most accessible and to the point 'lets have revolution' text I've read in a long time, one I expect will get a fairly wide  readership, but  was surprised that it doesn't address a single one of the points of constructive criticisms that have come XR's way. Does seem cloth eared.



He not surprisingly only ever seems to do him talking alone to the camera, I'd be interested to see him publicly debate this stuff with someone.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He not surprisingly only ever seems to do him talking alone to the camera, I'd be interested to see him publicly debate this stuff with someone.



I had a chat with him about the whole 3.5%  and the idea that going to prison automatically equals social change and he floundered a bit to be honest.


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## Proper Tidy (Sep 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> "End of the month // end of the world. Same struggle."



Good slogan


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Tbh I feel like talking about "spectacularly missing" things is a pretty unhelpful approach, not least because the movement's not actually in as bad a place as some people seem to have decided it is via a lack of presence at protests (which also isn't entirely accurate - quite a lot of people involved in XR stuff and escpecially DSEI, particularly at grassroots, are anarchists and simply not on the "organised" radar so much).
> 
> When I started out in 2003-odd there was no syndicalist presence to speak of in Britain but the tail end of summit hopping and street carnival was present. Today the street stuff is down but the IWW has grown massively, UVW has been founded and has a big anarchist influence within it etc. I'd say the level of organising around housing struggles is better, our physical institutions are more numerous and mostly more stable (eg. fundraisers are actually going on for roof fixes and the like rather than leaks being ignored) and we're planning multiple major events for next year well in advance. In terms of what I'm personally most active in, Freedom's doing better than at any point over the last 15 years both financially and as a hub for activity.
> 
> ...



The only reason the roof is leaking at my local social centre is the manifest incompetence of the people running it . It's a very safe space alright,  right up until the ceiling caves in.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> The only reason the roof is leaking at my local social centre is the manifest incompetence of the people running it . It's a very safe space alright,  right up until the ceiling caves in.



Not to put too fine a point on it, but the non-moany way to sort that is to show your own competence in getting it done.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but the non-moany way to sort that is to show your own competence in getting it done.



I could do the work just can't be fucked to deal with the committees.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

I've tended to find that saying "give me the go-ahead I'll get it done" (as long as your reputation for actually doing so is alright) gets around most of the bureaucracy in pretty short order tbh. Most of the time people put off repairs or fudge fundraising it's because they're not confident and/or experienced in what they're doing, so they'll bite the hand off someone who does.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2019)

Fixing a roof won’t be cheap but perhaps less expensive than ceiling collapsing on people and hurting them.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

True that. The thing I'm pleased about is that fundraising is happening at all — those roofs are in a bad way because for a long time no-one was even checking (or if they did hadn't gotten the word out).


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I've tended to find that saying "give me the go-ahead I'll get it done" (as long as your reputation for actually doing so is alright) gets around most of the bureaucracy in pretty short order tbh. Most of the time people put off repairs or fudge fundraising it's because they're not confident and/or experienced in what they're doing, so they'll bite the hand off someone who does.



I think I'll defer to my experience rather than your optimism.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

I mean, in the last year I was the main person organising roof repairs, repointing, loo replacement, stair fixes and a bunch of other stuff at Freedom on pretty much the exact basis described above. So it's not exactly optimism.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> I mean, in the last year I was the main person organising roof repairs, repointing, loo replacement, stair fixes and a bunch of other stuff at Freedom on pretty much the exact basis described above. So it's not exactly optimism.



Well I'm glad it's more harmonious there! 

But actually this kind of returns us to the XR point. Do I spend my time maintaining a building for a group the main order of business of whom seems to be who to ban next and is constantly struggling to find consensus meaning that all decisions are continually deferred or do I spend it (As I did this afternoon) out putting up access for mural painters for XR in what turned out to be quite a laugh?


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

Well, I'm an infrastucture man so I tend to work on the basis that when it's not a laugh is exactly where a stolid brand of helpfulness is most important, because we've got endless opportunities to paint murals but very few walls to call our own.

It's also always worth bearing in mind that in any vaguely fractious volunteer collective about 80% of the honourable comrades will usually move on within three years. Often less. And in the worst case scenarios if no-one's fighting the radical corner it'll be the most obnoxious chancers who end up with a free building.


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## redcogs (Sep 13, 2019)

Has naive Roger and the other comrades been released from custody yet?  Have they been charged?  my quick search didn't reveal anything im afraid.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Well, I'm an infrastucture man so I tend to work on the basis that when it's not a laugh is exactly where a stolid brand of helpfulness is most important, because we've got endless opportunities to paint murals but very few walls to call our own.
> 
> It's also always worth bearing in mind that in any vaguely fractious volunteer collective about 80% of the honourable comrades will usually move on within three years. Often less. And in the worst case scenarios if no-one's fighting the radical corner it'll be the most obnoxious chancers who end up with a free building.



"Social centres and were they worth it ?" Is probably a whole other thread.

However I think you've put your figure on it, albeit in reverse. The ownership of buildings is a major cause of strife. Instead of collectives forming around affinity or similar beliefs we end up with a weird hodge podge of a coalition which has a major asset. This is what leads to strife instead of people peaceably going their own way and acting together as and when their interests overlap.

The movement I got involved with didn't own buildings,  it squatted them.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

All the squats are gone mate, they went along with the street parties and it's no use pining after them. The question is what's left, what's there to work with now, and what's the way to make it better.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> All the squats are gone mate, they went along with the street parties and it's no use pining after them.



Take it you didn't get down the April rebellion then?


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

There's always a new street party, and you knew what I meant.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> There's always a new street party, and you knew what I meant.



Not really.  You said the street parties had gone.  They haven't. It's just not anarchists doing them anymore.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

As in the street parties run by organised crews of reasonably well linked self-conscious anarchists (though I'd reckon Occupy had and to a lesser extent regional XR still has an anarchist lean). They disappeared along with the squats and the musical movements, and the focus is somewhat different now as a result. But I just don't see the point of pining over what was or sneering about what is tbh. 

But then again I came in when the party scene was already on its last legs, and was never big into it in the first place, so I guess I lack nostalgia.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> As in the street parties run by organised crews of reasonably well linked self-conscious anarchists (though I'd reckon Occupy had and to a lesser extent regional XR still has an anarchist lean). They disappeared along with the squats and the musical movements, and the focus is somewhat different now as a result. But I just don't see the point of pining over what was or sneering about what is tbh.
> 
> But then again I came in when the party scene was already on its last legs, and was never big into it in the first place, so I guess I lack nostalgia.



I don't the collectives putting on street parties were anything like what you mean by "anarchists". In fact class struggle anarchists at the time looked down on them as useless bongo playing liberal hippies. 

So I'd suggest you're suffering from fauxstalgia.


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

So what _are_ you bemoaning then? That unorganised non-anarchists used to put on better parties in the good old days in some nice squats and now they've all grown up and fucked off and the today's anarchos aren't so much fun any more? I mean fuck man of course they have, that's _life_.

And for the record, I've always got on fine with bongo players putting on hippie gigs, in fact I'll usually do the bar, door or washing up if I'm about.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> So what _are_ you bemoaning then? That unorganised non-anarchists used to put on better parties in the good old days in some nice squats and now they've all grown up and fucked off and the today's anarchos aren't so much fun any more? I mean fuck man of course they have, that's _life_.
> 
> And for the record, I've always got on fine with bongo players putting on hippie gigs, in fact I'll usually do the bar, door or washing up if I'm about.



No , I'm pointing out that there's always been a bitter remnant denouncing the new thing as naive liberal nonsense.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> No , I'm pointing out that there's always been a bitter remnant denouncing the new thing as naive liberal nonsense.


Sometimes the new thing really is naive liberal nonsense tho


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Sometimes the new thing really is naive liberal nonsense tho



But it generally gets the right idea.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Has naive Roger and the other comrades been released from custody yet?  Have they been charged?  my quick search didn't reveal anything im afraid.




A few minutes ago...


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## Rob Ray (Sep 13, 2019)

That's not even a tenth of what you've been saying on this thread Red — and you're not talking to someone who's denounced "the new thing" as liberal nonsense, in fact my main take is that it's not new at all.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> But it generally gets the right idea.


I don't doubt that people from XR have or will get the right idea but I have grave reservations about XR as a vehicle


----------



## redcogs (Sep 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> A few minutes ago...



Thanks Red Sky. That is good news.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2019)

I think XR is needed. What boils my piss is that it’s still anything but class politics. Annoys the fuck out of me.


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## redcogs (Sep 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't doubt that people from XR have or will get the right idea but I have grave reservations about XR as a vehicle



i can agree with this.  But can any of us wait around until an ideologically acceptable and politically pure movement springs up?  According to Roger Naive we've  a decade or so before famine grips the globe and social collapse begins to bite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i can agree with this.  But can any of us wait around until an ideologically acceptable and politically pure movement springs up?  According to Roger Naive we've  a decade or so before famine grips the globe and social collapse begins to bite.


A better movement would not only have better politics but be a movement which will be effective at more than publicity and blocking streets


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> A better movement would not only have better politics but be a movement which will be effective at more than publicity and blocking streets



Where do I sign up?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Where do I sign up?


we have to come up with a name before we take to the streets


----------



## LDC (Sep 13, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I think XR is needed. What boils my piss is that it’s still anything but class politics. Annoys the fuck out of me.



What makes it not 'class politics'? And I mean it as a serious question and point of discussion.

The anti-roads and related stuff was often dismissed as such, but this is a good article that I think addresses some of those criticisms and made a really big impact on me when I first read it.

The politics of anti-road struggle and the struggles of anti-road politics - the case of the No M11 link road campaign

Sometimes I think people have a tendency to dismiss anything that isn't about blokes in flat caps assembling tractors in a factory as not class politics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What makes it not 'class politics'? And I mean it as a serious question and point of discussion.
> 
> The anti-roads and relate stuff was often dismissed as such, but this is a good article that I think addresses some of those criticisms.
> 
> ...


Of course it's class politics but from what I've seen the politics of XR are the politics of forelock tugging, eg when they wrote to the queen


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## LDC (Sep 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Of course it's class politics but from what I've seen the politics of XR are the politics of forelock tugging, eg when they wrote to the queen



Some of it is for sure (really a small minority) but surely/hopefully it has the potential to transcend that?

And how and why is that totally different to loads of what people support as 'real class politics' when that's also often also asking parliament for reforms, begging MPs for help, etc etc.?

E2A: In Berlin on a Friday night talking about XR on the internet. fml


----------



## redcogs (Sep 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> A better movement would not only have better politics but be a movement which will be effective at more than publicity and blocking streets


 


Pickman's model said:


> Of course it's class politics but from what I've seen the politics of XR are the politics of forelock tugging, eg when they wrote to the queen


Dear your highness please would you mind if me and some of my mates this weekend overthrew the world carbon economy and replaced it with a hippy oriented peace and love green eco windmill and chimes  barter based Ommmm exchange?


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> E2A: In Berlin on a Friday night talking about XR on the internet. fml



Kein Problem

Extinction Rebellion Berlin  (@XRBerlin) on Twitter


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What makes it not 'class politics'? And I mean it as a serious question and point of discussion.
> 
> The anti-roads and related stuff was often dismissed as such, but this is a good article that I think addresses some of those criticisms and made a really big impact on me when I first read it.
> 
> ...



Obviously the environment killing us all is (not) in the interests of the working class but it’s not as if it’s tied to any other demands.


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## TopCat (Sep 13, 2019)

If they actually found Roger with a drone stashed he is fucked.


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

TopCat said:


> If they actually found Roger with a drone stashed he is fucked.



I doubt it.


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## TopCat (Sep 13, 2019)

Not released yet?


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## LDC (Sep 13, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Obviously the environment killing us all is (not) in the interests of the working class but it’s not as if it’s tied to any other demands.



Restructuring the entire economy and society along non/minimal carbon emitting (and arguably almost inevitably then non-capitalist) lines? I mean I know it's more complex than that in terms of what they're saying/meaning, but it's not a totally terrible starting point for a radical position is it?

I mean I hate bongos and hippies as much as the next person, but is it that much more limiting than arguing for better pay in a workplace, or shorter hours, demands which we also hope can be transcended in struggle?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Not released yet?



Their Twitter hasn't said anything for a couple of hours


----------



## smokedout (Sep 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> his coming across as an eccentric auld drunk is the least objectionable thing about him



Your probably right.  I just feel like I've spent too much of my life already listening to drunk old hippies droning on about their wacky plans for revolution.  It was a bit of an occupational hazard of the free party scene.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> Well, I'm an infrastucture man so I tend to work on the basis that when it's not a laugh is exactly where a stolid brand of helpfulness is most important, because we've got endless opportunities to paint murals but very few walls to call our own.
> 
> It's also always worth bearing in mind that in any vaguely fractious volunteer collective about 80% of the honourable comrades will usually move on within three years. Often less. And in the worst case scenarios if no-one's fighting the radical corner it'll be the most obnoxious chancers who end up with a free building.


https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ugY_gLgpSra5x2M-aHvoF8ALAldNj06z0kmutrKwTphoE


----------



## smokedout (Sep 13, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i can agree with this.  But can any of us wait around until an ideologically acceptable and politically pure movement springs up?  According to Roger Naive we've  a decade or so before famine grips the globe and social collapse begins to bite.



There seems to be a small clique of people pushing this social collapse in ten years line including Jem Bendell, Hallam and David Wallace-Wells.  It is not supported by the science and some of Hallam's wilder claims have recently faced heavy criticism from climate scientists.  If this line keeps being pursued then it risks associating climate science with crankery in the eyes of the public.  The situation is dire but the notion that everywhere wil be like Mad Max in a decade is just daft, if we do see changes in our lifetime it is far more likely to be social intensification and the exact type of authoritan government I suspect Hallam favours as capital and the state assert and protect themselves rather than gangs of outlaws street fighting over tins of tuna.  I think they've watched too many zombie apocalypse films.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 13, 2019)

thanks ill read the link smokedout


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I think they've watched too many zombie apocalypse films.


Watching this didn't exactly fill me with hope



Greenland's ice is melting at the rate scientists thought would be our worst-case scenario in 2070

No doubt Trump has read a similar report handed to him and sees a real estate opportunity, hence his offer to buy it up.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2019)

Fact is climate change offers  a huge opportunity to seriously challenge if not overthrow capitalism, and XR or no XR, I think it's strategic to focus full energy on it.
And that's not being opportunistic, that's just desperate preservationism.
The status quo is now utterly indefensible in the face of this and thats a massive wedge that can / has to be driven into the heart of the system.
While XR is the biggest active force, I think it's worth piling in behind...I don't feel any obligation to get nicked though. And to Rogers credit his zero tolerance to reformism is welcome.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Their Twitter hasn't said anything for a couple of hours


I would wager he gets remanded in custody.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I would wager he gets remanded in custody.



Totnes Robinson


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2019)

smokedout said:


> There seems to be a small clique of people pushing this social collapse in ten years line including Jem Bendell, Hallam and David Wallace-Wells.  It is not supported by the science and some of Hallam's wilder claims have recently faced heavy criticism from climate scientists.  If this line keeps being pursued then it risks associating climate science with crankery in the eyes of the public.  The situation is dire but the notion that everywhere wil be like Mad Max in a decade is just daft, if we do see changes in our lifetime it is far more likely to be social intensification and the exact type of authoritan government I suspect Hallam favours as capital and the state assert and protect themselves rather than gangs of outlaws street fighting over tins of tuna.  I think they've watched too many zombie apocalypse films.



Even in that the third opinion offered doesn't rule out Hallam's doomsday predictions.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Restructuring the entire economy and society along non/minimal carbon emitting (and arguably almost inevitably then non-capitalist) lines? I mean I know it's more complex than that in terms of what they're saying/meaning, but it's not a totally terrible starting point for a radical position is it?
> 
> I mean I hate bongos and hippies as much as the next person, but is it that much more limiting than arguing for better pay in a workplace, or shorter hours, demands which we also hope can be transcended in struggle?



Fair enough, yeah I can see how it pretty much has to become anti-capitalist given capitalism isn’t compatible with sustainability.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 14, 2019)

ska invita said:


> And to Rogers credit his zero tolerance to reformism is welcome.


What zero tolerance to reformism? XR's demands are


> 1. Government must tell the truth by declaring a climate and ecological emergency, working with other institutions to communicate the urgency for change
> 2. Government must act now to halt biodiversity loss and reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025
> 3. Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice.


Whatever ones thinks of those demands they are explicitly reformist


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What zero tolerance to reformism? XR's demands are
> 
> Whatever ones thinks of those demands they are explicitly reformist



Kind of. Explicitly transitional I'd have said.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I would wager he gets remanded in custody.



Released at 10 p.m last night . Off to do it again apparently .


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> If they actually found Roger with a drone stashed he is fucked.



As if that prick was planning to do the dodgy stuff himself.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 14, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> What zero tolerance to reformism? XR's demands are
> 
> Whatever ones thinks of those demands they are explicitly reformist



All three demands opening with the words 'government must...' is a teeny tiny giveaway for the eagle-eyed.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

He led an impromptu march to Buck Pal and appealed to the Queen to take immediate action.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

I think he thinks democracy got us here. It's to be discarded if required.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> As if that prick was planning to do the dodgy stuff himself.



Think he is. At 12 today.  What have you heard differently?


----------



## redcogs (Sep 14, 2019)

Roger does( inexplicably )appear to have created some left opponents.  But whether we like it or not, ER is a burgeoning movement, and it seems to have great potential.   Its natural enough that criticisms will emerge in the ferment, but don't we all have an obligation to *mainly *offer encouragement and support, rather than jerimiah's cynicism and distrust?


----------



## redcogs (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> He led an impromptu march to Buck Pal and appealed to the Queen to take immediate action.


Has she recalled parliament


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 14, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Roger does( inexplicably )appear to have created some left opponents.  But whether we like it or not, ER is a burgeoning movement, and it seems to have great potential.   Its natural enough that criticisms will emerge in the ferment, but don't we all have an obligation to *mainly *offer encouragement and support, rather than jerimiah's cynicism and distrust?



No.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 14, 2019)

Plenty examples of social movements that had a degree of success despite being internally riven by dissent, Chartism for instance?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2019)

Money where his mouth is...


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Money where his mouth is...



Well well well.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 14, 2019)

Not that I wish this but would be some dark humour if he fell down some stairs while in custody


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2019)

I always remember the free the weed protest circa 2003 and the gobshite there with the megaphone announcing that he was going to be arrested, then duly did, and nothing much has changed since.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 14, 2019)

The hippy says what he means and means what he says.  Not an armchair keyboard he, but an admirable warrior.  Solidarity Roger!


----------



## redcogs (Sep 14, 2019)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2019)

Old bill on the wrong side of history as always.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

redcogs said:


>


He's gone limp. They dragged him, knees first across the flinty ground. Bastards.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not that I wish this but would be some dark humour if he fell down some stairs while in custody


What?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What?



I think he means the promoting of being arrested vs the reality for some people.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

redcogs said:


> The hippy says what he means and means what he says.  Not an armchair keyboard he, but an admirable warrior.  Solidarity Roger!


The jigsaw misses something.


----------



## friedaweed (Sep 14, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not that I wish this but would be some dark humour if he fell down some stairs while in custody


Rubber gloves at the least.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I think he means the promoting of being arrested vs the reality for some people.


What?

The police will attack the ER lot when they are told to do so.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What?
> 
> The police will attack the ER lot when they are told to do so.



It’s that the ER lot have been saying stuff like being arrested and imprisoned is life affirming stuff. Anyway, jokes aren’t funny once they’re explained.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> The jigsaw misses something.


Sorry TopCat, im not following this?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Sorry TopCat, im not following this?


It's me.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Sep 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What?
> 
> The police will attack the ER lot when they are told to do so.







Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s that the ER lot have been saying stuff like being arrested and imprisoned is life affirming stuff. Anyway, jokes aren’t funny once they’re explained.



Yeah was a silly comment, don't wish or relish any harm to him or anybody. Just referring to promotion of idea police are reasonable and should be cooperated with, their neutrality


----------



## redcogs (Sep 14, 2019)

my guess is that it will not be long before a few 'public worthies' begin to show up at the various XR initiatives.  Just to wear my own cynics hat for a moment, wouldn't it be excellent if Emma Thompson jetted into Heathrow again to place herself in the saving the world spotlight?

She might have to share a cell with naive Roger.  i can think of worse fates (for him)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 14, 2019)

Just spotted XR's boat set up as an exhibit outside the Maritime Museum in Greenwich. That must be a world record for the co-opting of a protest movement by the establishment.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Just spotted XR's boat set up as an exhibit outside the Maritime Museum in Greenwich. That must be a world record for the co-opting of a protest movement by the establishment.


The demo was part of the exhibit.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> The demo was part of the exhibit.



Fucking Situationists.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 16, 2019)

Roger Hallam remanded until 14th October.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 16, 2019)

They can fucking keep him


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> They can fucking keep him



Reactionaries of every political and economic stripe will echo this nonsense. Hallam the hippie isn't the enemy.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

You know the phrase “the enemy of my enemy is not my friend”? 
That. 
Or something like it. 

He can fuck off and die slowly as far as I’m concerned.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> He can fuck off and die slowly as far as I’m concerned.



The guy is currently incarcerated not for monstrous criminality like rape or child abuse or causing the death of innocents through economic neglect.  He's there because he wants to end capitalism's fatal attachment to carbon production which will kill us all if not resisted.  There are plenty of people who should be advised to "fuck off and die slowly", but Hallam ain't on that list. A sense of justice and proportion tells everybody that surely?  Of course it might be that during his life naive Roger has caused personal pain or injury to others (who amongst us hasnt?) so perhaps he is culpable in some unknown way.  But this anti capitalist ecostruggle at Heathrow deserves solidarity. So maybe try reconsidering your view?


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

We each have our own lists. You don’t get to tell me who’s on mine, thanks.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

And you’re doing his cause no favours at all by being such an irritating twonk on this thread ;-)


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2019)

redcogs said:


> The guy is currently incarcerated not for monstrous criminality like rape or child abuse or causing the death of innocents through economic neglect.  He's there because he wants to end capitalism's fatal attachment to carbon production which will kill us all if not resisted.  There are plenty of people who should be advised to "fuck off and die slowly", but Hallam ain't on that list. A sense of justice and proportion tells everybody that surely?  Of course it might be that during his life naive Roger has caused personal pain or injury to others (who amongst us hasnt?) so perhaps he is culpable in some unknown way.  But this anti capitalist ecostruggle at Heathrow deserves solidarity. So maybe try reconsidering your view?


Wanting to end capitalism's fatal attachment to carbon production doesn't make him anti-capitalist.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> And you’re doing his cause no favours at all by being such an irritating twonk on this thread ;-)


Ta


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Wanting to end capitalism's fatal attachment to carbon production doesn't make him anti-capitalist.



not another 'he can fuck off and die' merchant surely?


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> We each have our own lists. You don’t get to tell me who’s on mine, thanks.


Asking that you reconsider aint the same as "telling you" whose on your list.  Its asking you to reconsider?


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

Its good to reconsider some things, especially things that involve a naive hippie being incarcerated for acting against social injustice and telling a few truths.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Roger Hallam remanded until 14th October.



His lawyers did not ask for bail.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Wanting to end capitalism's fatal attachment to carbon production doesn't make him anti-capitalist.



Pretty sure he is an anti capitalist.  I'm no massive fan of Hallam's but I don't really get the pile on.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> You know the phrase “the enemy of my enemy is not my friend”?
> That.
> Or something like it.
> 
> He can fuck off and die slowly as far as I’m concerned.



I bear this bloke no ill will I just want nothing to do with him or his organisation. 

Everyone thinks the police are OK until they see for themselves that they're not. No amount of hearing about it second hand will drive the point home, not when the idea of police as trustworthy public servants is so pervasive.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Wanting to end capitalism's fatal attachment to carbon production doesn't make him anti-capitalist.


i'm not sure about this.  Capitalism may be incompatible with carbon free production techniques. But maybe not, maybe it can adjust. The evidence of history suggests it can, but not that it will.  However, i assume that you are suggesting that Roger Wide-eye isn't anti-capitalist?  Who knows?  the likeliehood is he's on a journey pointing in an anti capitalist direction - like most of us.  i'm optimistic for him.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I bear this bloke no ill will I just want nothing to do with him or his organisation.
> 
> Everyone thinks the police are OK until they see for themselves that they're not. No amount of hearing about it second hand will drive the point home, not when the idea of police as trustworthy public servants is so pervasive.


There are plenty of people in XR on the ground who dont' hold this view of the police [unfortunately plenty who do as well ]


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> His lawyers did not ask for bail.


This is interesting.  i assume that is the hippie's decision? rather than his brief explaining that he has little chance of being bailed in any event?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2019)

redcogs said:


> This is interesting.  i assume that is the hippie's decision? rather than his brief explaining that he has little chance of being bailed in any event?



Depending on what they've charged him with he would normally be given conditional bail. The only times I've known eco protestors to be remanded is when they've had form for violent offences.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

He broke previous bail conditions not to return to drone flying at Heathrow though SpookyFrank.  Would that influence decision?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2019)

redcogs said:


> He broke previous bail conditions not to return to drone flying at Heathrow though SpookyFrank.  Would that influence decision?



Yes, yes it would. However some people will do this on purpose just to get their original bail conditions challenged in court.


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I bear this bloke no ill will I just want nothing to do with him or his organisation.
> 
> Everyone thinks the police are OK until they see for themselves that they're not. No amount of hearing about it second hand will drive the point home, not when the idea of police as trustworthy public servants is so pervasive.



Surely quite a bit of engaging in struggle with people from outside the political scene is highly likely to involve working with people who have a positive perspective on the police? Saying you won't work with anyone that has that limits your political opportunity for alliances and organizing quite a lot?

I mean whatever you want to do go ahead, but we'd be a bit fucked as a movement if everyone had that position.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2019)

redcogs said:


> not another 'he can fuck off and die' merchant surely?


Tbh if someone is so foolish as to engage the police and tell them of a plan, a conspiracy if you will, to disrupt an airport with drones then it is no great surprise if they are arrested and charged. You don't need to study for a PhD in protest studies to realise that he has been at best ill advised.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Its good to reconsider some things, especially things that involve a naive hippie being incarcerated for acting against social injustice and telling a few truths.


Oh do give over


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Surely quite a bit of engaging in struggle with people from outside the political scene is highly likely to involve working with people who have a positive perspective on the police? Saying you won't work with anyone that has that limits your political opportunity for alliances and organizing quite a lot?
> 
> I mean whatever you want to do go ahead, but we'd be a bit fucked as a movement if everyone had that position.



Have whatever views you like about coppers, it's behaviour I'm worried about. XR's behaviour is barely a gnat's bollock away from selling their own people out to the state.


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2019)

I agree that the whole getting numbers arrested = social change is obviously a totally stupid idea based on a really weird and liberal reading of a selective number of other struggles that seems to have formed his PhD (I'm hoping he got a F with plenty of red scribble over it.)

But from what I've seen XR are clear that you don't have to be arrested to be involved, that non-arrestable roles are essential and important as well, and that they make things clear as to what to expect with them explaining how they talk to the police and tell them the plans.

Criticism of them is important, but making it factual rather than emotional and reactionary is too, so unless there's some other stuff going on I don't think their position is dishonest or selling anyone out? Happy for correction though if there are examples of that.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> You know the phrase “the enemy of my enemy is not my friend”?
> That.
> Or something like it.
> 
> He can fuck off and die slowly as far as I’m concerned.


He is a bit odd, has social skills issues etc but die? Why do you want him to die. Please explain, precisely if you will.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh if someone is so foolish as to engage the police and tell them of a plan, a conspiracy if you will, to disrupt an airport with drones then it is no great surprise if they are arrested and charged. You don't need to study for a PhD in protest studies to realise that he has been at best ill advised.



Pickers, that's a very impressive and entirely supportable answer to a question not posed.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

i'm beginning to think that you might not be a card carrying 'fuck off and die' person after all?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 17, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Everyone thinks the police are OK until they see for themselves that they're not..



Surely a good argument for bringing Middle England into contact with them?


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2019)

My concern is among all the Hallam hate and other criticisms of XR based on rumour, shit things they did and now have realized, and things someone once posted on Twitter under their name, the more serious and important political criticisms either get missed totally, or they get lumped in by XR folks as being the same personal griping they've been hearing loads of and so get easily dismissed rather than listened to.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

TopCat said:


> He is a bit odd, has social skills issues etc but die? Why do you want him to die. Please explain, precisely if you will.



Explaining in this forum would not be fair on certain individuals who I’m in contact with.


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2019)

.


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Explaining in this forum would not be fair on certain individuals who I’m in contact with.



Wow, sorry, I guess he's actually raped, killed, tortured, or done some really horrendous things to someone?

Otherwise saying he should die slowly would be just macho posturing or a throw away jibe you now feel duty bound to weirdly defend rather then back down from.


----------



## LDC (Sep 17, 2019)

Anyway, XR (or whatever spins off it) aren't going to go away anytime soon, and the week of activity in October might be really influential in seeing where they go next.


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

happy to accept nyxx reasons.  i've done bad stuff (ran through a cornfield once) and some will harbour 'fuck off and slowly expire' resentment (and worse) against me.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Explaining in this forum would not be fair on certain individuals who I’m in contact with.


Why wish him dead here then?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 17, 2019)

You look like your just throwing shit.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2019)

Roger Haram.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Pickers, that's a very impressive and entirely supportable answer to a question not posed.


It's a long 'no' to the question you posed. And I'm not Pickers


----------



## redcogs (Sep 17, 2019)

Ahh. You the Pickman!  Gotta watch bake off now.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

I hope he gets what he wants and then some. Rotting away in jail sure. I can’t say more in this forum in this day and age. 

And no I don’t need to answer to you Topcat nor anyone else for that matter - it’s an open forum, these are my feelings on the matter, it’s not based on hearsay it’s based on experience of a closer sort and fuck anyone who thinks I need to go into more detail than that. 

The man’s a fucking arsehole & his defenders are pathetic / misguided sheep.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> My concern is among all the Hallam hate and other criticisms of XR based on rumour, shit things they did and now have realized, and things someone once posted on Twitter under their name, the more serious and important political criticisms either get missed totally, or they get lumped in by XR folks as being the same personal griping they've been hearing loads of and so get easily dismissed rather than listened to.



Mate, the most constructively, sensitively, sensibly put criticisms have met with hyper-defensive hysterics. If you question anything at all about them you’re personally responsible for the the end of the planet. They’re just not interested in any of it, end of.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> I hope he gets what he wants and then some. Rotting away in jail sure. I can’t say more in this forum in this day and age.
> 
> And no I don’t need to answer to you Topcat nor anyone else for that matter - it’s an open forum, these are my feelings on the matter, it’s not based on hearsay it’s based on experience of a closer sort and fuck anyone who thinks I need to go into more detail than that.
> 
> The man’s a fucking arsehole & his defenders are pathetic / misguided sheep.



There's rumours about financial misbehaviour but is it more serious than that?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Mate, the most constructively, sensitively, sensibly put criticisms have met with hyper-defensive hysterics. If you question anything at all about them you’re personally responsible for the the end of the planet. They’re just not interested in any of it, end of.



Not here they haven't.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Wow, sorry, I guess he's actually raped, killed, tortured, or done some really horrendous things to someone?
> 
> Otherwise saying he should die slowly would be just macho posturing or a throw away jibe you now feel duty bound to weirdly defend rather then back down from.



Nah I think you’ll find I’m neither defending or backing down. You can piss off with your bizarro reworking of my words as well.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Not here they haven't.



Here is hardly the centre of the internet


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Here is hardly the centre of the internet



Although it is where this discussion is happening. So kind of relevant.


----------



## klang (Sep 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> .


xr are easy enough to pin point. they usual advertise their whereabouts.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Although it is where this discussion is happening. So kind of relevant.




You really think this here thread is representative of the sum total of communication and discussion that’s occurred re extinction rebellion? 
Sorry to burst your bubble but in the scheme of things it’s just not that relevant.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> You really think this here thread is representative of the sum total of communication and discussion that’s occurred re extinction rebellion?
> Sorry to burst your bubble but in the scheme of things it’s just not that relevant.



It’s where you made some ambiguous claims that you then backed away from. What the rest of the internet has to do with that is anyone’s guess.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

You’re not even trying to follow. 
I was responding to Lynndoylecooper’s post, but you’re trying to make it about something else.


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

& I’m not backing away from any claims. I’m keeping my reasons ambiguous here, however I’m 100% keeping them, and I actively hate the fucker.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2019)

nyxx said:


> You’re not even trying to follow.
> I was responding to Lynndoylecooper’s post, but you’re trying to make it about something else.



No, you have it the wrong way round. You're saying things HERE and then pulled on it HERE you suddenly start talking about the rest of the internet. If you didnt really want to discuss those things HERE, why bring it up?


----------



## nyxx (Sep 17, 2019)

Have you even read the post I was quoting?
Until you have and you demonstrate full understanding of that context there’s no conversation to be had here.

I was responding to stuff lynndoylecooper brought up, but you’ve got it all mixed up, but then that’s par for the course.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 17, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> That's not even a tenth of what you've been saying on this thread Red — and you're not talking to someone who's denounced "the new thing" as liberal nonsense, in fact my main take is that it's not new at all.



Here's a good example..A totally disingenuous story which has been retweeted,  picked and gloated over by all the usual suspects


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## Riklet (Sep 18, 2019)

What a dumb idea.  I support some of their aims, I am sceptical about a lot of things, was inspired by seeing what they do and a city transformed, but we deserve a much less wooly movement.

One of the most refreshing things about XR is the way they have shown what the right knows all too well - you dont need to get political power or even play that game to shift the conversation, to change minds, to realise social change.


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## LDC (Sep 18, 2019)

Riklet said:


> What a dumb idea.  I support some of their aims, I am sceptical about a lot of things, was inspired by seeing what they do and a city transformed, but we deserve a much less wooly movement.
> 
> One of the most refreshing things about XR is the way they have shown what the right knows all too well - you dont need to get political power or even play that game to shift the conversation, to change minds, to realise social change.



Unless I'm misunderstanding something, that's the exact point, the post about letters and emails to the police _wasn't_ anything made my XR, it was a suggestion made by someone on their forum I think and picked upon as a stick to beat XR with.

I'm a sucker for some ultra-left uber critical positions myself, but I think there is a cultural/political problem in our scene/movement/whatever at the moment, and it can been seen playing out in a number of areas (arguments about trans stuff for example) where's a complete lack of flexibility or nuance in the way some people see things, it's a unforgiving and brutal attitude, and it is really politically destructive and personally demoralizing.

In my opinion it's related to the growth of identity politics and the 'calling out culture' around that, it's related to some people sometimes being quite damaged and a bit unstable, the collapse of collective structures and growth of individual/small projects, and it's obviously related to the internet in how easy it is for people to say something stupid that exist forever and get picked up on, and how easy it is for people to make accusations, misinterpret something, or just be plain disruptive. Not to mention the tendency for some cartoon anarchists to use slagging off of some things purely as an ideological and egotistical booster to their own identity and position as the only true radicals.


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## chilango (Sep 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper 

Fuck yeah


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## Rob Ray (Sep 18, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> In my opinion it's related to the growth of identity politics and the 'calling out culture' around that, it's related to some people sometimes being quite damaged and a bit unstable, the collapse of collective structures and growth of individual/small projects, and it's obviously related to the internet in how easy it is for people to say something stupid that exist forever and get picked up on, and how easy it is for people to make accusations, misinterpret something, or just be plain disruptive. Not to mention the tendency for some cartoon anarchists to use slagging off of some things purely as an ideological and egotistical booster to their own identity and position as the only true radicals.



In mine the incidence of people jumping to conclusions, why they do so, how they do so, who they do it to and what the impact might be on any given topic is much, much more complicated (and specific) than the above suggests. And tbh, in itself I'd say blaming "idpol" (which imo is the laziest descriptor to have been popularised on the left in recent memory and is at least as poisonous to clear debate as the various cultures, individuals and fashions it aims to criticise) or "cartoon anarchists" (ditto - I mean fine tell off people for talking bollocks, but acting like armchair anarchism and a censorious attitude/egomania/refusal to listen are one and the same is just _silly - _) is also in the category of "totally bloody unhelpful."

Edit: Just to expand a bit, there was what I'd consider a fairly definitive moment related to "callout culture" and such the other week with Contrapoints. I'd pick her as probably one of the most important voices about trans issues among the under-30s today, certainly on the radicalish left. She's considered, kind, courteous and open about her politics and often interrogates her own position on stuff.

The other week, she made a comment on Twitter about feeling uncomfortable in spaces where pronouns are announced ("hi I'm Rob Ray, he/him" etc) because she wanted to feel like she could pass (as female) without having to say anything (I paraphrase). The response from nonbinary people on Twitter was huge, thousands of people were posting to her in a range of different ways, from calm consideration of the point all they way up to screaming fury. Which isn't "callout culture" inasmuch as we're not talking about a small number of people deciding to cancel a mate, we're talking about people feeling moved to give their opinion on a matter of interest. Thing is, everything @ her was showing up on her timeline. _Thousands _of posts. And regardless of the actual overall tone of the conversation, what it of course comes across as is a tsunami of screaming about you having done something wrong. This caused her to leave Twitter, which actively deprived trans people of an influential voice.

Now the reasons for that tsunami are just unfathomably complex, though you could probably extract key reasoning and critique if you delved into the sum of the posts. The screamy ones could be for practically _any _reason, from a bad day to a bad high to a mental break to a poisonous inward turn among a group of friends to just a really headbangy attitude. And there's fuck all we can do about it, because we're not talking about a few rum uns who can be turfed out of the movement, or a bad trend we can reverse, we're talking about globally-constructed masses of people all posting from a million different perspectives and from as many different interlocking community bases, who often have radically different cultural standpoints (eg. US hyper-individualism vs anywhere else). It's a fucking mess, and it's not going away, but it's not particular to the left, to young people, to old people, or to whatever "idpol" is supposed to mean.

This, incidentally, may well be a phenomenon worth interrogating in terms of how different generations are reacting to the various arguments anarchism is having with itself right now. For the younger generation, most of them have grown up with the mute/ban button as the primary means of controlling what would otherwise be an overwhelming whirlwind of bonkers behaviour. Controlling inputs isn't just a matter of whether open speech is needed to develop your politics, it's the only way to filter out what you consider to be worth listening to. The problems that builds are many (political bubbles, intolerance of difference etc) but it's not the weak-minded or cosseted approach that is sometimes projected and a real engagement with this phenomenon actually requires quite a lot of constructive thought, rather than just moaning about teh yoof and their banning and idpols.

_Final edit: Having written all this, I apologise for the diversion! I guess it should have been in the identity politics thread, but I really don't like that thread as it basically just feels like a circlejerk". _


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## Red Sky (Sep 18, 2019)

Guy Smallman, lefty scruffy photojournalist nicked on Heathrow Pause action this evening.


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## redcogs (Sep 19, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Guy Smallman, lefty scruffy photojournalist nicked on Heathrow Pause action this evening.


Is Smallman still slammed up for journalism Red Sky?


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Is Smallman still slammed up for journalism Red Sky?


Released last night


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## redcogs (Sep 19, 2019)

Looks like the 'UK' has joined other tin pot dictatorships and started lifting journalists for doing their job.  So much for a 'free press'.


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## vanya (Sep 19, 2019)

Statement from Hallam


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## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Guy Smallman, lefty scruffy photojournalist nicked on Heathrow Pause action this evening.


Some more compo coming his way in a bit then


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## redcogs (Sep 19, 2019)

If the coppers spitefullywrongfully arrest a lefty journo, then a compo payment seems to be quite a good thing.  i'd want you to receive one if the state slammed you up Pickman's model.  i'd even write you an encouraging note whilst you were inside


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## Baronage-Phase (Sep 24, 2019)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> They clearly  have no idea what a cult actually is, beyond a lazy click bait term. I can’t stand the lazy minimisation of that word.
> 
> Anyhow, Greta Thurnberg is inspirational for sure.
> 
> ...



‘You have stolen my dreams,’ Greta Thunberg tells world leaders
Her speech at the UN climate summit was sobering. But how many are really listening? And how many are committed to radical changes that are required?

She says "“With today’s emissions levels, our remaining CO2 budget will be gone in less than eight and a half years."

This is terrifying.
What is wrong with us that we can push this to the back of our minds and carry on as if it's not going to happen?


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 24, 2019)

Lupa said:


> ‘You have stolen my dreams,’ Greta Thunberg tells world leaders
> Her speech at the UN climate summit was sobering. But how many are really listening? And how many are committed to radical changes that are required?
> 
> She says "“With today’s emissions levels, our remaining CO2 budget will be gone in less than eight and a half years."
> ...


Same mechanism that allows is to tolerate uk arming genocidal regimes for lots of lovely cash or thinks it's perfectly acceptable that refugees should prove their desperation  to get asylum in UK by sneaking into or under a lorry or floating a leaky dinghy across dangerous shipping lanes to Dover


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## chilango (Sep 26, 2019)

They're bringing out a newspaper???

EXtRa! EXtRa! Read all about it! Extinction Rebellion is launching a newspaper! Get your Hourglass here! - Extinction Rebellion



> . *In The Hourglass, readers can expect stories similar to that of a mainstream newspaper like The Metro while at times hitting the tone of Take a Break, all the time approaching climate reporting as should already be the norm in the press*



Er. Ok.


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## redcogs (Sep 26, 2019)

Roger Hallam remains slammed up.  i never thought that predictions of doom could ever be compelling, yet this extinction rebellion view deserves some attention.


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## Flavour (Sep 27, 2019)

Lupa said:


> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/env...unberg-tells-world-leaders-1.4027707?mode=amp
> What is wrong with us that we can push this to the back of our minds and carry on as if it's not going to happen?



Simply put, people don't really believe it. Not saying they're deniers of the science, by now they're just a tiny irrelevant lunatic fringe of the American right, but even if we accept the science to be true, we don't really believe in the consequences of that science. It's too massive and systemic and invisible to take seriously when there's so much more immediate stuff going on demanding our attention. Even now. It's very sad. But greta and XR and so on won't have any impact until they're actively opposing our entire social structure (which we may call capitalism but that's not entirely true). 

The truth almost nobody is ready to make the enormous sacrifices we need to make in order to save the planet. Normal people justifiably feel less-than-guilty and expect politics/business to sort it out. Politicians too scared to enact radical change because it threatens the economy and endangers their position in office. Business defends itself by claiming it only sells what the people ask for. 

Others just assume some miracle cure will be provided by science. 

The truth is it's already too late. We're going to lose a lot of our environment, cities, people, biodiversity, food production capacity, indigenous peoples, coastal communities. The question now is how much can we save? As the clock ticks the theoretical maximum we can save shrinks further.


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## redcogs (Sep 27, 2019)

Flavour said:


> The truth is it's already too late. We're going to lose a lot of our environment, cities, people, biodiversity, food production capacity, indigenous peoples, coastal communities. The question now is how much can we save? As the clock ticks the theoretical maximum we can save shrinks further.



Maybe this explains my recurring tears of despair.  But we must refuse to accept that human activity inevitably does damage - we can intervene positively and create hopeful circumstances.  Otherwise what is the point of anything?


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## Flavour (Sep 27, 2019)

this is insane nonsense, sorry redcogs. why must we refuse to accept it? human activity inevitably does damage, insofar as I understand the word damage, to the rest of the ecosystem, insofar as there are limited resources and every inch of land we use for our own ends damages the ecosystems which would have otherwise used it. there's no need for these primitivist fantasies of living in harmony with nature, they don't help.

what the fuck does creating hopeful circumstances (for who?) have to do with the wellbeing of an insect? it's waffle.

human society, as it currently exists, inevitably does enormous and largely irreparable damage to the environment. the question is: what's the least harmful way that 7, 8, 9, 10 billion human beings can coexist with the rest of nature? i'm no malthusian but we have to hope that human population does eventually drop due to lower birth rates and so on, rather than being wiped out in awful catastrophes.


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 27, 2019)

Agree Flavour that it's too late. Not yet sure what that "too late"  will look like 

We are mainly living in denial* and maybe humans must always live in denial to stay alive.	Denial about ecological emergency takes different forms.	 Either people deny its really happening or will happen in their lifetime in UK and carry on consuming and generating loads CO2.   Or they acknowledge its happening but that they are too small to make a difference or it's too late so they despair but do nothing.   Or they fear disaster is coming but live in denial that it's too late and campaign for change/make changes they can make. 

I'm a denier that moves between all of theres perspectives but I'm aiming to spend more time in the third one 

*obviously denial is a luxury not allowed for people on the front line of extreme climate change right now


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## redcogs (Sep 28, 2019)

Flavour said:


> human society, as it currently exists, inevitably does enormous and largely irreparable damage to the environment. the question is: what's the least harmful way that 7, 8, 9, 10 billion human beings can coexist with the rest of nature? i'm no malthusian but we have to hope that human population does eventually drop due to lower birth rates and so on, rather than being wiped out in awful catastrophes.



The point i wanted to make was that there are clearly some types of human activity that are more harmful to the natural world than others.  its difficult to accept that every human action 'damages' the environment.  For example near where i stay there are huge areas of open moorland (which many tourists regard as beautiful!) which was previously Caledonian forest sucking up carbon from the atmosphere.   Humans cut the trees down, and introduced sheep, and these together with wild deer now ensure that nothing much grows other than heather, enabling the aristo owners make a packet from grouse shooting by an infinitesimal proportion of the population.  In my more optimistic moments i imagine turning that process on its head by creating a different society, free from the ravage of private property, which encourages ecologically sympathetic types of human intervention which can restore the Caledonian treeland.

Some types of human activity can contribute to a saner and safer world?  If this is incorrect then we truly are fucked.


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## Flavour (Sep 28, 2019)

Yes we definitely need reforestation. Lots of it. They say in the middle ages a third of England was covered in forest (can't remember where I heard that sorry) and yes I'd say start with all the golf courses (just fuck golf right off as a sport) and land currently used for cattle farming. The east Anglian fens. Snowdonia. The Yorkshire moors. Anywhere with low population density really. There's no shortage of space where rewilding could be rolled out. But I feel it while I type it : the resistance to radical change because of the inconvenience.


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## SheilaNaGig (Sep 28, 2019)




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## vanya (Sep 28, 2019)

To my mind, the thing that makes Thunberg “inspirational” is that she transposes the entire climate change debate into the language of moral diatribe: thus her sermon before the UN, with everyone hanging their heads and feeling guilty. As in pop-culture Christianity, the point of repenting your sins is that this allows you to keep on doing them — after all, you’ve felt really bad about them, and maybe done some penance like adopting a vegan diet, right? So you’re okay with God or Gaia, and you can go right back to committing the same sins, knowing that there’ll be another sermon next Sunday and you can repent the next round then. The guy from Nazareth used to say “go and sin no more,” but of course that’s one of many things he said that got dropped like a hot rock.


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 28, 2019)

vanya said:


> To my mind, the thing that makes Thunberg “inspirational” is that she transposes the entire climate change debate into the language of moral diatribe: thus her sermon before the UN, with everyone hanging their heads and feeling guilty. As in pop-culture Christianity, the point of repenting your sins is that this allows you to keep on doing them — after all, you’ve felt really bad about them, and maybe done some penance like adopting a vegan diet, right? So you’re okay with God or Gaia, and you can go right back to committing the same sins, knowing that there’ll be another sermon next Sunday and you can repent the next round then. The guy from Nazareth used to say “go and sin no more,” but of course that’s one of many things he said that got dropped like a hot rock.


	Or there's a backlash against it like this that one of my facebook friends shared [*scuse the big text]


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## Baronage-Phase (Sep 29, 2019)

Jeremy Clarkson tells 'spoilt brat' Greta Thunberg to 'be a good girl and shut up'

Another fuckwit gobshite old white guy targets her.


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## pesh (Sep 29, 2019)

Has she punched someone in the face for not producing her a steak out of thin air?


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## Red Sky (Sep 29, 2019)

pesh said:


> Has she punched someone in the face for not producing her a steak out of thin air?



Yes a bit rich for this man child to be whinging about someone else having the "screaming ab dabs"


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 29, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Or there's a backlash against it like this that one of my facebook friends shared [*scuse the big text]
> View attachment 185391



Small children solely responsible for McDonald's corporate policy and their parents' choice of vehicle of course


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 29, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Small children solely responsible for McDonald's corporate policy and their parents' choice of vehicle of course


I know	it was shared by someone I used to work with.  She doesn't have loads of cash and doesn't go on holiday abroad but I know many of her friends do.   They might have grown up with caravan holidays but they all fly abroad now and take their kids & grand kids


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 29, 2019)

It's the reflex assumption that anything challenging an existing way of life is aimed at shaming them personally for no reason apart from moral superiority that gets me. Not that it's exclusive to climate change, of course - you see it on all sorts of issues, deliberately warping any sort of social criticism in their minds so it's (a) personal and (b) not for any reason apart from to get one up on you.

Clarkson is just a horrible mouthy media cunt mind, I don't even bother including him in this or give a single shit what he says.


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## Flavour (Sep 30, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's the reflex assumption that anything challenging an existing way of life is aimed at shaming them personally for no reason apart from moral superiority that gets me. Not that it's exclusive to climate change, of course - you see it on all sorts of issues, deliberately warping any sort of social criticism in their minds so it's (a) personal and (b) not for any reason apart from to get one up on you.



This is extremely prevalent and is also the trap which prevents action, as every approach is justifiably criticized for its shortcomings. The authoritarian greens (i.e. those, like some in XR seem to be, who support anti-democratic top-down radical structural change to stop the climate crisis) believe in the state as an apparatus with the potential to do good, and more often not do not see capitalism as necessarily an enemy: i've lost count of the times i've heard people talking about "improving" capitalism, "green capitalism", and the idea of good v bad capitalism. the idea that capitalism has "exaggerated" and gone too far in the wrong direction, but not that it is in itself an enemy of nature. 

Those who don't challenge other people's way of life (often for fear of this sort of defensive reaction you describe) content themselves with their own individual actions which as we know may help that person feel better about themselves, reassure them they're doing *their* bit, but as we know individual efforts to recycle and drive less and eat less meat will have close to zero impact on global emissions.


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## redcogs (Sep 30, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Those who don't challenge other people's way of life (often for fear of this sort of defensive reaction you describe) content themselves with their own individual actions which as we know may help that person feel better about themselves, reassure them they're doing *their* bit, but as we know individual efforts to recycle and drive less and eat less meat will have close to zero impact on global emissions.



Absolutely agree with your anti cap analysis.  But i'm uncomfortable with the above para' Flavour, but maybe i've not understood?  Not that i have any answers on how we can best encourage individuals to change their habits, most of which have developed through a lifetime consumption within a consumer society.  Jabbing the finger at someone who might be about to fly to their hard earned summer holiday in the sun, or shreiking at someone eating a bigmac doesnt seem like much of a strategy for social change.  XR's encouragement of mass civil disobedience however is much more in keeping with actions that have previously succeeded?  i'm not convinced that taking individuals to task like some holier than thou hectoring wearer of a hair shirt can convince that many people to shift the fundamentals of their behaviour.


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## Flavour (Sep 30, 2019)

That's what I'm saying. You don't think it's right to "jab the finger" at the working class for summer holiday or big mac... and of course, compared to the vastly superior carbon emissions of the rich with their private jets and inherently emissions-rich lifestyle (including the companies they own and the electricity they use) ... it's not fair to pull the guilt trip on poor people who struggle through life enough as it is. Who am I, who are you to make them feel guilty about one of the pleasures afforded them? 

Yet. The number of flights in the air and the whole meat industry (not to mention fast food corporate supply chains and so on) are part of the global problem. So where do we start? With the consumers, the providers of those services, or the politics that legitimizes them? That's the hard question.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2019)

Flavour said:


> That's what I'm saying. You don't think it's right to "jab the finger" at the working class for summer holiday or big mac... and of course, compared to the vastly superior carbon emissions of the rich with their private jets and inherently emissions-rich lifestyle (including the companies they own and the electricity they use) ... it's not fair to pull the guilt trip on poor people who struggle through life enough as it is. Who am I, who are you to make them feel guilty about one of the pleasures afforded them?
> 
> Yet. The number of flights in the air and the whole meat industry (not to mention fast food corporate supply chains and so on) are part of the global problem. So where do we start? With the consumers, the providers of those services, or the politics that legitimizes them? That's the hard question.


The pleasures afforded them. Tbh flying off on holiday isn't really affordable, not if you want to shift to a vaguely decent environmental future. The problem is that it's lots of individual actions which do make a difference. Not, as you say, a vast difference. But actions taken in one area will have an effect in another, the whole cap system's connected. If people aren't up for changing their holiday plans fuck knows how some of the more desperate decisions are going to be made down the line.


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## Flavour (Oct 1, 2019)

It's affordable, financially, for a vast swathe of the population to fly (with Ryanair or other budget airlines at lewsy) abroad and every year millions of people do so. It wasn't normal until perhaps the 1980s, but how many people do you know who haven't flown abroad for pleasure at least once in the last 3 years? 

I can't find the pdf of the full article rn but this article in nature :

Shift the focus from the super-poor to the super-rich

Makes the case that the super rich (the richest 47 million people on the planet I believe) emit as much as the poorest 3.5 billion. 

Admittedly those 3.5 billion probably don't do much flying. 

But my point is : while massively increasing the cost of air travel would dissuade people from flying so much, it would punish the poorest fliers. 
Is that the right way to convince people to change their holiday plans? It won't make much difference to the rich. Or those with private jets. 

I havent seen any models, I don't know if any exist, but imagine the cost of all flights doubled overnight. Would the number of flights halve? I doubt it somehow. I'm not sure how effective a measure it would be on its own. 

On the other hand I would be in favor of:
Government bans on farms which host more than 100 animals 
Buy back and replace subsidy schemes to take diesel and petrol cars off the road 
Nationalized electric cars 
Wind, tidal and other renewable energy expansion
Nationalized power rapidly converted to renewable 
And so on

But unless it's global again, the UK alone wouldn't make much difference. China, Saudi, Russia and the US: without them fully engaged in the same activities its all a bit pointless denying yourself a Ryanair flight out of climate guilt


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2019)

Flavour said:


> It's affordable, financially, for a vast swathe of the population to fly (with Ryanair or other budget airlines at lewsy) abroad and every year millions of people do so. It wasn't normal until perhaps the 1980s, but how many people do you know who haven't flown abroad for pleasure at least once in the last 3 years?
> 
> I can't find the pdf of the full article rn but this article in nature :
> 
> ...


 obviously people can pay the price - the money - for these flights. but it's the consequences of flying which will be unaffordable. part of the reason i think why the arctic is doing so poorly, why it's warming significantly faster than other parts of the planet, is because so many flights go over it (see eg Polar route - Wikipedia). every flight has a measurable consequence, and while it would be good if americans or russians or chinese people changed their habits, it's up to us, i think, to change our habits. your argument is the same one that american politician used the other day to greta thunberg, that american action would make no difference if china did nothing, and while i would expect a specious argument from an american politician i don't expect to hear such a thing from you. whatever happened to the auld slogan 'think globally, act locally'? your slogan seems to be, 'think globally, call on the government to do something locally'.


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## Flavour (Oct 1, 2019)

I do act locally. I agree with the idea. I grow my own vegetables and everything. I absolutely do not think calling on governments is going to change much any time soon - in a theoretical situation where a government could take such action I'd be in favor of it. My point was that guilt tripping people for flying isn't that helpful. 

I agree that the UK should go its own route of becoming more environmentally friendly or sustainable. Despite the fact that the UK wouldn't be able to change much globally. Something is better than nothing. Sure. 

The American politician: obviously full of shit. The USA still at least the 2nd most influential country in the world and could make the kind of planet-wide impact we need if it so chose. There is historical precedent of the USA devoting enormous resources (something like 2.5% of gdp) to a state program: the Apollo program. But nowadays I'm not sure there's the political will. 

This is another aspect of the quandry: governments have been corrupted by business interests and neoliberalism so deeply that they cannot be trusted to do anything except act in the interests of capital. Yet there are no others power capable of making the kind of swift radical change. If the change is gonna come about from the bottom up, it requires a general climate strike (not just one day but indefinite), occupation of power stations, highway blocks, all sorts of radical shit that XR has sort of experimented with a little bit. But they don't have the numbers or the tactics needed to threaten capital. And those sorts of actions will inevitably create lots of enemies among the working class. 

I don't know. It's all a bit overwhelming.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2019)

that it is


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## gosub (Oct 1, 2019)

Greta Thunberg busted after teacher sees her on TV


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## campanula (Oct 1, 2019)

gosub said:


> Greta Thunberg busted after teacher sees her on TV



Depressingly, daughter, who is a lot more active than my idle self, has been telling me that police have been in contact with schools, asking for information about children attending climate protests. I think daughter has initiated some FOI requests and is working with Netpol, drawing up advice for parents who are being threatened with safeguarding/social services interventions. Since  the threshold for intervention is so ridiculously high, it seems likely that police or school threats to parents will come to little but even so. If the fools in ER imagine the police are their friends, they are more disconnected to reality than I thought.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 2, 2019)

So, this Autumn Rebellion, starts next week in London, & 2 weeks of direct action planned. How long before plod wade in a crack heads? 3 days? A week? Didn’t they say about the last demo that their policing was shite & they’d do it very differently next time?


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## Libertad (Oct 2, 2019)

Tasers all round.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 2, 2019)

I went on an XR bike ride a couple of weeks ago, was a sunny day and the chance to hold up some traffic sounded fun. Whilst waiting for the off one of the local bods started telling me about their weekly meetings in the build up to next week's actions. I said I might mooch along, he then got excited and asked if I would be prepared to go up to London, said I might do. Then without missing a beat he asked if I'd like to get arrested, to which I replied no. He said it really wasn't that bad, to which my riposte was that on the various previous occasions I had been nicked it was invariably a pain the fucking arse. He asked where i had been busted before, I left out the raves and drugs shit and mentioned one Reclaim the Streets and Twyford Down. He'd heard of neither...


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I went on an XR bike ride a couple of weeks ago, was a sunny day and the change to hold up some traffic sounded fun. Whilst waiting for the off one of the local bods started telling me about their weekly meetings in the build up to next week's actions. I said I might mooch along, he then got excited and asked if I would be prepared to go up to London, said I might do. Then without missing a beat he asked if I'd like to get arrested, to which I replied no. He said it really wasn't that bad, to which my riposte was that on the various previous occasions I had been nicked it was invariably a pain the fucking arse. He asked where i had been busted before, I left out the raves and drugs shit and mentioned one Reclaim the Streets and Twyford Down. He'd heard of neither...


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## ska invita (Oct 2, 2019)

Flavour said:


> Shift the focus from the super-poor to the super-rich
> Makes the case that the super rich (the richest 47 million people on the planet I believe) emit as much as the poorest 3.5 billion.


On a similiar note this article is interesting:
The US military is a bigger polluter than more than 100 countries combined
Headline of 100+ countries aside it reckons US army pollution equals that of a medium sized country, Portugal, say.



Mr.Bishie said:


> So, this Autumn Rebellion, starts next week in London, & 2 weeks of direct action planned. How long before plod wade in a crack heads? 3 days? A week? Didn’t they say about the last demo that their policing was shite & they’d do it very differently next time?


Also how much have XR been infiltrated I wonder...Cant be very hard.

Regarding the upcoming actions I have caught wind of some of the plans...sounds like it will be a good spectacle at the very least! Some good logistics in the pipeline too (if the actions last long enough to see them actualised)


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He'd heard of neither...


The failure of passing down recently left history and lessons of good (and bad) practice is a gaping hole I think.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I went on an XR bike ride a couple of weeks ago, was a sunny day and the chance to hold up some traffic sounded fun. Whilst waiting for the off one of the local bods started telling me about their weekly meetings in the build up to next week's actions. I said I might mooch along, he then got excited and asked if I would be prepared to go up to London, said I might do. Then without missing a beat he asked if I'd like to get arrested, to which I replied no. He said it really wasn't that bad, to which my riposte was that on the various previous occasions I had been nicked it was invariably a pain the fucking arse. He asked where i had been busted before, I left out the raves and drugs shit and mentioned one Reclaim the Streets and Twyford Down. He'd heard of neither...


Not really their fault is it? There are radical history blogs (good London calendar here: http://past-tense.org.uk/pdf/calendar2015.pdf ) but they are pretty niche and unlikely to even come up in google searches unless you are looking for very specific things. People can only learn about these things in person most of the time. There's definitely space for a well-made website that gives a good history of the last 30-50 years of agitation/protest/riots in the UK but it's a huge project and would probably need funding to be really both comprehensive and easy to use.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> Also how much have XR been infiltrated I wonder...Cant be very hard.
> 
> Regarding the upcoming actions I have caught wind of some of the plans...sounds like it will be a good spectacle at the very least! Some good logistics in the pipeline too (if the actions last long enough to see them actualised)



I’d be surprised if plod didn’t know their plans for next week. Boats have been banned, & I suspect also, it’ll all be over in a day, tops. Kettle tactics right from the off, with mass arrests.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I’d be surprised if plod didn’t know their plans for next week. Boats have been banned, & I suspect also, it’ll all be over in a day, tops. Kettle tactics right from the off, with mass arrests.


it will not be like it was before, the police will have learned but xr won't have


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Boats have been banned


i dont think they were allowed in the first place 
but yeah, you may well be right


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Not really their fault is it? There are radical history blogs (good London calendar here: http://past-tense.org.uk/pdf/calendar2015.pdf ) but they are pretty niche and unlikely to even come up in google searches unless you are looking for very specific things. People can only learn about these things in person most of the time. There's definitely space for a well-made website that gives a good history of the last 30-50 years of agitation/protest/riots in the UK but it's a huge project and would probably need funding to be really both comprehensive and easy to use.




If only there were any books or shit detailing the history if resistance in the UK. Such as https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exist-Resist-Matthew-Smith/dp/0995783209


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 2, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I’d be surprised if plod didn’t know their plans for next week. Boats have been banned, & I suspect also, it’ll all be over in a day, tops. Kettle tactics right from the off, with mass arrests.



As previously said, what's the point in kettling those who's intention is to stay put?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Not really their fault is it? There are radical history blogs (good London calendar here: http://past-tense.org.uk/pdf/calendar2015.pdf ) but they are pretty niche and unlikely to even come up in google searches unless you are looking for very specific things. People can only learn about these things in person most of the time. There's definitely space for a well-made website that gives a good history of the last 30-50 years of agitation/protest/riots in the UK but it's a huge project and would probably need funding to be really both comprehensive and easy to use.


yeh it's obvs nothing someone could do from looking at things like schnews, do or die, the chronology of anti-authority violence in the 80s etc etc  not to mention violent london etc


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As previously said, what's the point in kettling those who's intention is to stay put?


there speaks a man who's never been in a moving kettle: and who hasn't been in a shrinking kettle either. having been in both, neither are pleasant.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there speaks a man who's never been in a moving kettle: and who hasn't been in a shrinking kettle either. having been in both, neither are pleasant.



Never been in a static one either. Notice what's happening and get punchy and out your pop. Or you get nicked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Never been in a static one either. Notice what's happening and get punchy and out your pop. Or you get nicked.


oh i agree. if you know what to look for it's obvious when a kettle's coming. but so few people have their wits about them. case in point: when bush came to london in 2004 there was an action meeting at victoria station. i spoke to the organisers and asked them what the plan was if a kettle was imminent. 'oh we'll have a meeting' they said, ignoring the fact that you might have 30 seconds to choose whether to stay or go. a loose line of cops formed outside the assembled throng, and i made sure i was outside that line. so when the whistle went to move off the police moved in and of maybe 150 people only i and 3 or 4 others evaded the kettle.


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

Yeah, I don't think the problem is a lack of resources on radical history out there, although of course it would be better if there were more.

I think it's a mix of the cultural stuff around a general tendency for people to be a bit more a-historical than previous generations in struggle have been, but I suspect it's also connected to the dynamics around XR that constantly go on about them being something new and unlike anything before and the ones with the 'right' answer. I mean what's the point of looking at other stuff if you think what you're doing is unarguably the right way and provides all the answers already?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, I don't think the problem is a lack of resources on radical history out there, although of course it would be better if there were more.
> 
> I think it's a mix of the cultural stuff around a general tendency for people to be a bit more a-historical than previous generations in struggle have been, but I suspect it's also connected to the dynamics around XR that constantly go on about them being something new and unlike anything before and the ones with the 'right' answer. I mean what's the point of looking at other stuff if you think what you're doing is unarguably the right way and provides all the answers already?


until xr i had never encountered a group which thought writing to the queen was a good idea


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As previously said, what's the point in kettling those who's intention is to stay put?



Kettling to keep roads open.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Never been in a static one either. Notice what's happening and get punchy and out your pop. Or you get nicked.



10 years ago I was witness to Smash EDO anti-war activists being kettled with horses on the South Downs (their first kettle tactic failed at the meeting point in Wild Park as everyone was savvy to it) many injuries, & not a pretty sight. Also a moving kettle from the London Road to the arrest RP on Lewes Road, which was quite a trek on a hot day with no water.


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> until xr i had never encountered a group which thought writing to the queen was a good idea



I dunno, most of the early (and sometimes later) incarnations of activist/direct action groups have bonkers ideas and shit politics freely flowing through them in some way. I guess the test for me is how prevalent those ideas are and what potential they have to change, either through discussion and growth or just with the radicalizing power of batons on skulls.


----------



## campanula (Oct 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I suspect it's also connected to the dynamics around XR that constantly go on about them being something new and unlike anything before and the ones with the 'right' answer. I mean what's the point of looking at other stuff if you think what you're doing is unarguably the right way and provides all the answers already?



Exactly so. A complete failure to accept that agitprop has a long history because, for sure, a lot of the more vocal ER members(?) have never been involved in any sort of street protest before  and absolutely believe this really is something new and radical...and breaking through this complacency was most dispiriting aspect of ER weekly meets (of which I have, I admit, attended precisely 1 and a half-arsed march when it went past my house).
And a lot of tension around internal hierarchies. Insisting they are essentially non-hierarchical when it is abundantly clear that this is not the case, with all the usual entitlement, loudest voices and class struggle, making them an unwelcoming place for anyone not toeing the ER line or coming from a different starting position. I have had exactly the same conversation as Bahnhof Strasse...with the implication that, as an older wc person, my only value was  as an arrestable. I have concluded it isn't for me, tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2019)

One thing being prepared to risk arrest, but this  (image) just winds me  up!


----------



## rekil (Oct 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> One thing being prepared to risk arrest, but this  (image) just winds me  up!


This is the correct procedure. Maybe not so many chairs. (friendly fire risk)



Spoiler


----------



## smokedout (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I went on an XR bike ride a couple of weeks ago, was a sunny day and the chance to hold up some traffic sounded fun. Whilst waiting for the off one of the local bods started telling me about their weekly meetings in the build up to next week's actions. I said I might mooch along, he then got excited and asked if I would be prepared to go up to London, said I might do. Then without missing a beat he asked if I'd like to get arrested, to which I replied no. He said it really wasn't that bad, to which my riposte was that on the various previous occasions I had been nicked it was invariably a pain the fucking arse. He asked where i had been busted before, I left out the raves and drugs shit and mentioned one Reclaim the Streets and Twyford Down. He'd heard of neither...



Few of them even seem to have heard of the The Committee of 100, who utilised pretty much the exact same tactics.  And failed in their objective.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If only there were any books or shit detailing the history if resistance in the UK. Such as https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exist-Resist-Matthew-Smith/dp/0995783209



Or websites which have collated organising information and legal expertise. Or how-to books specifically geared towards taking effective direct action. Or biannual camps where you can go to learn direct from experienced old hands. Yep, it's a thorny one.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2019)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 185741
> 
> One thing being prepared to risk arrest, but this  (image) just winds me  up!



Maybe if you rotated it 90 degrees anti-clockwise...


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Few of them even seem to have heard of the The Committee of 100, who utilised pretty much the exact same tactics.  And failed in their objective.



Sure they'll have some 'reason'. Monbiot seems to have re-written history to have blamed the failure of all the direct action movement of the 90s and 00s on the black bloc.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, I don't think the problem is a lack of resources on radical history out there, although of course it would be better if there were more.
> 
> I think it's a mix of the cultural stuff around a general tendency for people to be a bit more a-historical than previous generations in struggle have been, but I suspect it's also connected to the dynamics around XR that constantly go on about them being something new and unlike anything before and the ones with the 'right' answer. I mean what's the point of looking at other stuff if you think what you're doing is unarguably the right way and provides all the answers already?



I have a suspicion that to some extent this idiot idea that innovation is synonymous with ignoring all the lessons of the past is something that has been imported from business.


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

It's well worth having a look at XR's website for the plans for these coming weeks of actions.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If only there were any books or shit detailing the history if resistance in the UK. Such as https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exist-Resist-Matthew-Smith/dp/0995783209


I've never heard of that book and I've been involved in protest/political action for 20 years.  It's true there are resources that people can look at online but (a) you've got to know what you're looking for. You can't look up the Committee of 100 if you've never head of them. And (b) most people don't spend as much time on the internet as us. To trawl through libcom or something is a very time-consuming way to learn about stuff. We probably enjoy the process so we do it, but lots of people won't. I guess what needs to happen as a starter is more experienced and knowledgeable people within XR need to be passing their knowledge on, suggesting the important things for people to look up if they're interested in x or y. I'm sure it's happening a bit, but apparently not enough. The website idea I suggested was just an accelerator to make it less time-consuming to learn some of the key bits of history a new activist might want to know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I've never heard of that book and I've been involved in protest/political action for 20 years.  It's true there are resources that people can look at online but (a) you've got to know what you're looking for. You can't look up the Committee of 100 if you've never head of them. And (b) most people don't spend as much time on the internet as us. To trawl through libcom or something is a very time-consuming way to learn about stuff. We probably enjoy the process so we do it, but lots of people won't. I guess what needs to happen as a starter is more experienced and knowledgeable people within XR need to be passing their knowledge on, suggesting the important things for people to look up if they're interested in x or y. I'm sure it's happening a bit, but apparently not enough.


More experienced and knowledgeable people being code for the lamentable Roger et al I suppose


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> More experienced and knowledgeable people being code for the lamentable Roger et al I suppose


No, not at all.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 2, 2019)

im unwilling to sleight people like Roger who is currently slammed up for having the courage of his convictions.  He is a brother.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

redcogs said:


> im unwilling to sleight people like Roger who is currently slammed up for having the courage of his convictions.  He is a brother.


He's not the messiah he's a very naughty boy. And bloody foolish.

As to bring a brother I see scant evidence that he holds left-wing views


----------



## redcogs (Oct 2, 2019)

i accept most of the criticisms.  He's a wide eyed petitbourgoise hippie with little apparent appreciation of the state's inevitable resort to a violent response to XR.  But he aint Tommy Robinson.  He is set on a collision course with capital, and so are we.  Until i learn otherwise he's my brother.


----------



## chilango (Oct 2, 2019)

When I was a teenager in rural North Wales in the days before the internet I managed to find out about radical history and protest off my own back. I devoured whatever I could find.

It's much easier now.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 2, 2019)

If you want to offer some support to arrested people on the coming weeks you can click on the map below and find your local nick
 There will be a WhatsApp link to join as part of support for that police station.  You then get to see call outs for meeting people n release from that station
Police Station Support Group Map
Police Station Support Group Map - Google My Maps

To do this you don't have to chant,   be nice to  the police or risk arrest


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

Many criticisms, but lack of ambition isn't one...


----------



## chilango (Oct 2, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> If you want to offer some support to arrested people on the coming weeks you can click on the map below and find your local nick
> There will be a WhatsApp link to join as part of support for that police station.  You then get to see call outs for meeting people n release from that station
> Police Station Support Group Map
> Police Station Support Group Map - Google My Maps
> ...



A good thing to do. Seeing a friendly face who can help you sort yourself out is a big boon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Wouldn't want to get stuck on lambeth bridge with xr faith


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

Toss up between them, XR Elders, and XR Rainbow Rebellion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

I hope xr have some new tactics cos the cops say they've learned about dealing with the auld ones Specialist police assigned to Extinction Rebellion rallies


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Perhaps some stay-behind teams in the regions could do a few actions while the local specialist plod are in london


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 2, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I’d be surprised if plod didn’t know their plans for next week. Boats have been banned, & I suspect also, it’ll all be over in a day, tops. Kettle tactics right from the off, with mass arrests.



This was my prediction for April. I was swiftly disabused. So much for my hard won experience and expertise.

April did not go as Hallam , following his weird Chenoweth theory of social change,  wanted it to. He wanted to provoke reaction from the state.

The Overton window on climate change does seem to have shifted. XR protesters are 100% sure they are in the right. Large parts of the general public are in sympathy with them.  The government is in paralysis and the political situation is volatile to say the least. 

Who knows?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 2, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Reclaim the Streets and Twyford Down. He'd heard of neither...




Thirty years mate,  thirty years....


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Toss up between them, XR Elders, and XR Rainbow Rebellion.



Is there not an XR Grumbling old gits but still here anyway?


----------



## vanya (Oct 2, 2019)

Comrade Hallam on Extinction Rebellion


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Is there not an XR Grumbling old gits but still here anyway?


Outside the Chandos and the wetherspoons on whitehall


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Outside the Chandos and the wetherspoons on whitehall



That's actually quite handy.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 2, 2019)

chilango said:


> A good thing to do. Seeing a friendly face who can help you sort yourself out is a big boon.


I ve done some of this as I live near the holding centre on Croydon and it's not an easy place to get away from at 3am(nor somewhere to be walking about in woven striped trousers *on your own with no phone or cash)

*only one person had such garments


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

You going down Pickman's model ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You going down Pickman's model ?


Maybe


----------



## LDC (Oct 2, 2019)

XR U75.... Wetherspoons RV?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 2, 2019)

Well there is no October drinks organised yet.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Oct 3, 2019)




----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 3, 2019)

Why was it MI6 rather than MI5?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why was it MI6 rather than MI5?


because he's telling porkies?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 3, 2019)

of maybe the distinction between the two spy companies is unclear for many?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

redcogs said:


> of maybe the distinction between the two spy companies is unclear for many?


mi5 - home
mi6 - abroad

surely the difference is well known in popular culture? it's something i picked up well before i became politically active


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 3, 2019)

And more likely to have been the branch anyway I would have thought.


----------



## LDC (Oct 3, 2019)

Deleted. Can't be arsed. Bollocks was he MI6 though.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 3, 2019)

And what happened to getting arrested being great?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And more likely to have been the branch anyway I would have thought.


yeh  much more likely


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And what happened to getting arrested being great?


meet new people, enjoy new experiences, catch up on kip - what's not to like?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 3, 2019)

XR = an international phenomenon. All the spy companies can have a slice.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 3, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


>




What a fuckin pilchard.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> meet new people, enjoy new experiences, catch up on kip - what's not to like?


Don't forget the reading.  Loads of books on the shelf need dusting down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Don't forget the reading.  Loads of books on the shelf need dusting down.


they will give you a copy of the police and criminal evidence act code of practice if you ask nicely, which while not known for its enthralling plot is well worth a read.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 3, 2019)

Sounds a dry tome to me - but i don't doubt its essentialism.  Something uplifting might be useful.  1984?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Sounds a dry tome to me - but i don't doubt its essentialism.  Something uplifting might be useful.  1984?


we by zamyatin. or, if you're of a nervous disposition in the cells, wee.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> we by zamyatin. or, if you're of a nervous disposition in the cells, wee.


i'm indebted to you Mr Pickman'.  i was unaware of Zamyatin until this moment.  Thank you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Sounds a dry tome to me - but i don't doubt its essentialism.  Something uplifting might be useful.  1984?


now i think about it the first time i was arrested they let me take my newspaper into the cell with me, which was useful as it had ads for lawyers in it


----------



## Rivendelboy (Oct 3, 2019)

ska invita said:


> On a similiar note this article is interesting:
> The US military is a bigger polluter than more than 100 countries combined
> Headline of 100+ countries aside it reckons US army pollution equals that of a medium sized country, Portugal, say.
> 
> ...


I would imagine it very likely they have been deeply compromised precisely because of how welcoming to the police XR are. It's part of Roger Hallam's philosphy. He believes with enough influence we can, and should, turn the police (and not just the police) to our side.

I even wonder if they are treating him with relative leniency precisely because they can use him to encourage XR activists to turn themselves in. Is he quite literally a 'useful idiot'?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 3, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



ho ho 

by rebelling early they've caught them on the hop


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


>




Extinction Rebellion spray fake blood on Treasury building


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 3, 2019)

Looks that way!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 3, 2019)

A fire engine! Genius!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

but it wasn't all it might have been as you can see in the video here https://videos.metro.co.uk/video/me...470254280/960x540_MP4_6679324545470254280.mp4


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

large (early) write-up here Extinction Rebellion spray 1,800 litres of fake blood outside Treasury | Metro News


----------



## Flavour (Oct 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but it wasn't all it might have been as you can see in the video here https://videos.metro.co.uk/video/me...470254280/960x540_MP4_6679324545470254280.mp4



lol for fucks sake guys


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 3, 2019)

Lost control of the hose! Gutted!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

headline in the daily mail

headline in the mirror


#imperialmeasureswatch


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i'm indebted to you Mr Pickman'.  i was unaware of Zamyatin until this moment.  Thank you.


It's a great book


----------



## MrCurry (Oct 3, 2019)

That video is the best laugh I’ve had all day.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 3, 2019)

MrCurry said:


> That video is the best laugh I’ve had all day.


Protesters 'lose control of fake blood hose'

Proper lol


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Lost control of the hose! Gutted!!





Rutita1 said:


> Protesters 'lose control of fake blood hose'
> 
> Proper lol


it doesn't really look like 'lost control', it looks like the nozzle came out of the hose, or the hose broke:

from rutita's video:


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2019)

Really fucking stupid stuff that. That hose and branch whipping around out of controll would kill someone if it hit them on the head. 
Cant believe they thought it would be a good idea to stand on top of the pump either with a fire hose under full pressure 

Not a wonder they only sail their yacht on dry land


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it doesn't really look like 'lost control', it looks like the nozzle came out of the hose, or the hose broke:
> 
> from rutita's video:
> View attachment 185832


Probably old kit that's not been serviced for years.

It does look like the branch blew off its coupling. You really shouldn't fuck about with that sort of stuff if you don't know what you're doing. Its really dangerous stuff in the wrong hands.

They are lucky one of them or a member of the public didn't end up with a smashed up leg or worse.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 3, 2019)

XR have taken a tremendous initiative in spraying the treasury red.  Wish i'd thought of it, and i wish it hadn't gone wrong.  Bad things happen, but   a broken hose doesn't detract from the issues being highlighted - capitalism has to be confronted before it extinguishes life on earth and any prospect of a decent civilisation worthy of humanity.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 3, 2019)

Tbh for the look of the thing a lake of blood appearing outside the ministry has a certain The Shining vibe ...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2019)

Good effort. Better execution needed. 6/10.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 3, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Good effort. Better execution needed. 6/10.



Best paid plans of mice and men..


----------



## TopCat (Oct 3, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Best paid plans of mice and men..


Practice, practice, practice.


----------



## LDC (Oct 3, 2019)

I do have a bit of admiration for the effort they put into making those drunken pub plans into a reality.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 3, 2019)

I don't suppose there's many places you can practice with yer fire engine and  hose without causing a fuss.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 3, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Practice, practice, practice.



It looks like the nozzle blew off. Hey ho. I don't think it really damages their brand.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 3, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I do have a bit of admiration for the effort they put into making those drunken pub plans into a reality.


"nah what we need is a ffuckin... a fffuckin... FIRE ENGINE"

This is terrific stuff even if it failed a bit at the implementation stage. Big dreams are important. If anything it's kind of sympathetic.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 3, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> now i think about it the first time i was arrested they let me take my newspaper into the cell with me, which was useful as it had ads for lawyers in it


Heh, you have reminded me of feeling a bit of an idiot when I went to the local police station taking a couple of newspapers and some fruit for a couple of people who had been grabbed at the M77 in Pollok. Well, only an idiot in that the police told me they were no longer there, but the real point was that arresting people in the very south of Glasgow and taking them to a police station in the north seemed uncool, so while I was lazing in my flat that day near the relevant police station, brother phoned and suggested I go down there pretty much just to indicate that taking people to another area doesn't make them instantly hidden, can't demand to see them but can take newspapers and innocent foodstuffs and ask whether they could have them.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 3, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> I don't suppose there's many places you can practice with yer fire engine and  hose without causing a fuss.



How about outside the Treasury?


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is terrific stuff even if it failed a bit at the implementation stage. Big dreams are important. If anything it's kind of sympathetic.




If anything I think it's made the state think very seriously of how easy it is to drive a decommissioned, privately owned former fire appliance into the City of London and do whatever you want with it. Pretty scary if you think of what may have been enabled in such a vehicle.

Frightening and ill thought out fucktwittery to be honest and good luck to anyone who owns one privately from here on. It didn't fail a bit at the implementation stage, it went disastrously wrong and could have had very serious consequences if it had hit someone. That wasn't a hose pipe on the lawn Benny Hill scene if you know the forces involved in that kit.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> If anything I think it's made the state think very seriously of how easy it is to drive a decommissioned, privately owned former fire appliance into the City of London and do whatever you want with it. Pretty scary if you think of what may have been enabled in such a vehicle.
> 
> Frightening and ill thought out fucktwittery to be honest and good luck to anyone who owns one privately from here on. It didn't fail a bit at the implementation stage, it went disastrously wrong and could have had very serious consequences if it had hit someone. That wasn't a hose pipe on the lawn Benny Hill scene if you know the forces involved in that kit.



Chill out


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Chill out


I'm completely chilled thanks chuck. It doesn't stop me being aghast at someone's Darwin Award attempts 

Here's someone who knew what he was doing with that sort of kit just to put it into context. 

LODD: Ga. firefighter dies after being struck by fire hose


----------



## LDC (Oct 3, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> If anything I think it's made the state think very seriously of how easy it is to drive a decommissioned, privately owned former fire appliance into the City of London and do whatever you want with it. Pretty scary if you think of what may have been enabled in such a vehicle.



You do sound a little bit _Daily Mail_ in that rant tbh.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You do sound a little bit _Daily Mail_ in that rant tbh.


You're entitled to your opinion, it's a bit shite IMHO but you're entitled to it 

Vehicle and equipment safety



> 2.3  Terrorism
> 
> The change in emphasis on how the international terrorist threat might materialise in the UK, including the opportunity to replicate some of the tactics different groups have used overseas needs to be considered.  This includes use of stolen emergency service vehicles, used as VBIED’s, as well as other uses of emergency service equipment for example in Mumbai, Norway and the USA.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 3, 2019)

XR is down on the Prevent list in some schools now


----------



## Libertad (Oct 3, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> XR is down on the Prevent list in some schools now



Do you have a source for that?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 3, 2019)

It was


Libertad said:


> Do you have a source for that?


 From an ex student of  ours who teaches in a local london  primary (dont know the names).   They had a whole staff meeting about Prevent duty recently and XR was listed as extremist group and any child mentioning it re involvement should trigger a safeguarding concern


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 3, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> XR is down on the Prevent list in some schools now





Miss-Shelf said:


> It was
> 
> From an ex student of  ours who teaches in a local london  primary (dont know the names).   They had a whole staff meeting about Prevent duty recently and XR was listed as extremist group and any child mentioning it re involvement should trigger a safeguarding concern



That's a shame really from the general perspective of our youth becoming more recently politicised and mobilised against climate change because it probably is one of the only ways to get some long lasting momentum behind the issue on the whole but, as has been seen before with this particular group, they really are writing their protest plans on the back of a fucking beer mat  I'm not against the principals of what they're doing however, if you criticise their tactics you always get the daily mail shit comments, but they are a bit overtly 'Keystone Kops' in their approach to doing things. It just creates easy pickings for anyone who wants to politically oppose them and paint a picture that they're a bunch of doubloons that you wouldn't want your kids to get too hung up on. 

Look at the example above. I gave a quite simple informed position on why this wasn't a good idea today and someone jumps on the 'daily mail' bandwagon. If the self induced fucktwittery and hilarity of their actions wasn't there it wouldn't be daily mail column friendly fodder in the first place. That's the point. You make yourself a target for such by being this fucking silly. 

I'd rather get behind Greta and her clan than these dobbers tbh. The more daft stuff XR do the more they present themselves for that sort of easily discredited critique. At least the kids are dealing with their critique and exposing it for the pure prejudice that it is. 

Ageism and denial. 

I'm sorry but these lot look daft in comparison to what the kids are doing through their own mobilisation and long may it continue


----------



## chilango (Oct 3, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> XR is down on the Prevent list in some schools now



It was an obvious response.

Less to target the kids, more the adults that might aid them.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 4, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Sure they'll have some 'reason'. Monbiot seems to have re-written history to have blamed the failure of all the direct action movement of the 90s and 00s on the black bloc.



I often think how George Monbiot couldn't possibly be a bigger dick if he tried and he repeatedly surprises me.


----------



## LDC (Oct 4, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Look at the example above. I gave a quite simple informed position on why this wasn't a good idea today and someone jumps on the 'daily mail' bandwagon. If the self induced fucktwittery and hilarity of their actions wasn't there it wouldn't be daily mail column friendly fodder in the first place. That's the point. You make yourself a target for such by being this fucking silly.



But you didn't criticize it on any decent political grounds, just some weird look at the relationship to possible terrorist tactics nonsense. There's plenty of good criticisms to be made of the action and similar ones like it, but I don't think "Ooooohhhh terrorism!" is one of them.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 4, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> But you didn't criticize it on any decent political grounds, just some weird look at the relationship to possible terrorist tactics nonsense. There's plenty of good criticisms to be made of the action and similar ones like it, but I don't think "Ooooohhhh terrorism!" is one of them.


I criticised them on their shear stupidity and the immediate danger they placed to individuals in the vicinity of their  calamitous fuck up. You have seen the video haven't you? I didn't think "Oooh terrorism" yer tit that's been the response of some of the services now concerned by their fuckwittery.


----------



## rekil (Oct 4, 2019)

'Our aim is to get people arrested': Climate activists gear up for week-long protest on streets of Dublin


> “Ultimately, it is part of Extinction Rebellion’s aim to get people arrested. In London, over 1,000 people were arrested and this was part of what drew so much attention to their rebellion.
> 
> “If the courts keep hearing the same message from us, that message will get through and more people will demand the urgent and radical action that is required.”
> 
> Organisers will also welcome those unwilling to be arrested, but say they “cannot guarantee” that people will not be arrested for simply attending the protest site, although they add that such an outcome is unlikely.


Bit stoopit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2019)

copliker said:


> 'Our aim is to get people arrested': Climate activists gear up for week-long protest on streets of Dublin
> 
> Bit stoopit.


that message will get through? do they think magistrates fill in a message form which they send to higher echelons?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2019)

The latest from their fb feed: 

The London police aim to prevent the October Rebellion via “specialist removals teams” from across England. So Extinction Rebellion asks all Rebels not coming to London to organise civil disobedience in their home towns, cities, and villages - on Monday. Thus we can preempt attempts to concentrate national police resources in London. 

Here are some ideas: 

1. Target local government authorities with acts of civil disobedience, symbolic direct action. This could include contacting the local police with calls that you are planning actions of civil disobedience.

2. For those Rebels who cannot take action on the street, we are asking that you flood all Government Departments with complaints via phone, email, or any other means, for their failure to take a stand in the face of the sixth mass extinction. 

3. Contact your local MPs to ask for their support for Rebellion. This will help defer strong police action.

4. Promote the Rebellion through all available social media channels. Here's a recommended online outreach strategy. This Rebellion is for all of us.

Help Pre-empt a Concentration of Police Resources in London and be a part of a historic moment in the British civil disobedience.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The latest from their fb feed:
> 
> The London police aim to prevent the October Rebellion via “specialist removals teams” from across England. So Extinction Rebellion asks all Rebels not coming to London to organise civil disobedience in their home towns, cities, and villages - on Monday. Thus we can preempt attempts to concentrate national police resources in London.
> 
> ...


Well it's an idea.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 5, 2019)

Stretching the police is a very good idea. One of hallmarks of 2011 riots was that police were too stretched, in terms of numbers of coppers and geographically, to be able to respond effectively, and when there was shipping in to bulk up the Met this was followed by stuff happening in some of the places the coppers had been shipped in from.

Not sure about writing to MPs and the claimed restraining effect this will have on coppers. Sounds like shit.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 5, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The latest from their fb feed:
> 
> The London police aim to prevent the October Rebellion via “specialist removals teams” from across England. So Extinction Rebellion asks all Rebels not coming to London to organise civil disobedience in their home towns, cities, and villages - on Monday. Thus we can preempt attempts to concentrate national police resources in London.
> 
> ...


I know in the grand scheme this is minor. But. Calling their members/supporters rebels. 

Makes it sound like a kids club.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 5, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The latest from their fb feed:
> 
> The London police aim to prevent the October Rebellion via “specialist removals teams” from across England. So Extinction Rebellion asks all Rebels not coming to London to organise civil disobedience in their home towns, cities, and villages - on Monday. Thus we can preempt attempts to concentrate national police resources in London.
> 
> ...



The longer version I've seen reposted on reddit has a slightly different paragraph about the ideas list:



> If Rebels across the UK engage with their local police to say they will be taking action on Monday, we can try to preempt attempts to concentrate national police resources in London. Here are some ways you can do it.


 (https://www.reddit. com/r/ExtinctionRebellion/comments/dd6cjp/calling_all_rebels_not_coming_to_london_for_the/)

which seems like a good way to get yourself pre-emptively nicked for conspiracy to [whatever they can come up with] or to prevent a breach of the peace at the very least. Better surely to not talk to the police and just pop up so that at every future XR action, the police have to be concerned about what might happen, what don't they know about. Instead they can feel confident that if no-one has told them what they're up to, nothing is going to happen and they can dispatch police to London.

edit: not sure how to change the link to just a link instead of previewing a large reddit post so I broke the link.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2019)

BigTom said:


> The longer version I've seen reposted on reddit has a slightly different paragraph about the ideas list:
> 
> ()
> 
> which seems like a good way to get yourself pre-emptively nicked for conspiracy to [whatever they can come up with] or to prevent a breach of the peace at the very least. Better surely to not talk to the police and just pop up so that at every future XR action, the police have to be concerned about what might happen, what don't they know about. Instead they can feel confident that if no-one has told them what they're up to, nothing is going to happen and they can dispatch police to London.



Conspiracy
Wasting police time


----------



## redcogs (Oct 5, 2019)

Its all a bit Camberwick Green in its approach to social change - XR want to achieve it, but think mistakenly that everybody is your friend, sharing a common understanding of the tragedy of the world. 

im not certain there were any coppers in Camberwick, if there were, they were probably benign traffic bobbies..  Some scales have to fall away from eyes yet im afraid.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 5, 2019)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2019)

Annnnd, the MET are off!



“But but the police are our friends!”


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2019)

Well there ya have it!


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 5, 2019)

It will be interesting to see what happens next


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 5, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens next



Lots of kids will continue to enjoy Fridays off. Fragment anarchist groups will appear. Greta will be on tour with Sting and Bono raining it in before buying an elite property in Monoco and the world will carry on turning for about another 11 years.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 5, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens next



I expect they'll have grounds to deny bail to everyone they've nicked today as one of the grounds for denying bail is if it's reasonable to think the person will commit another crime whilst on bail, and they'll spend the weekend in a police cell, magistrate's court on monday and next week in prison somewhere. Hopefully won't have too much impact on the actual actions but I have zero knowledge of anything so who knows.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 5, 2019)

i'm hopeful that there will be many XR supporters and activists who will recognise the class dimension of the role of police.  The Force will do as they are told , even to the point of the certain destruction of the earth and the civilisation that they seem to believe in.   XR's tactical flexibility is likely to tested very quickly.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2019)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2019)




----------



## andysays (Oct 5, 2019)

BigTom said:


> I expect they'll have grounds to deny bail to everyone they've nicked today as one of the grounds for denying bail is if it's reasonable to think the person will commit another crime whilst on bail, and they'll spend the weekend in a police cell, magistrate's court on monday and next week in prison somewhere. Hopefully won't have too much impact on the actual actions but I have zero knowledge of anything so who knows.


But on the bright side, time for some yoga practice


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 5, 2019)

Guardian story, though doesn't say much more than is on Twitter anyway: London police arrest activists ahead of Extinction Rebellion protest

also they found some terrorist beanbags



"remain under heavy guard from the Met’s territorial support group"


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Guardian story, though doesn't say much more than is on Twitter anyway: London police arrest activists ahead of Extinction Rebellion protest
> 
> also they found some terrorist beanbags
> 
> ...



Those aren't tsg, they have two letters on their epaulettes, aw, and tsg only have one, u


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 5, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Those aren't tsg, they have two letters on their epaulettes, aw, and tsg only have one, u



They came in a TSG van then, from one image I saw.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 5, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> They came in a TSG van then, from one image I saw.


The tsg used to use those silver box ones but those have for some time been used by level 2 cops too. The tsg now seem to have blue vans similar to city police riot cops with territorial support group painted on the side in white, which rather gives the game away


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 5, 2019)

at a recent Free Tommy

They're all over the place now, it's not unusual to see them just randomly at any protest no matter how peaceful.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 5, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 186028
> 
> at a recent Free Tommy
> 
> They're all over the place now, it's not unusual to see them just randomly at any protest no matter how peaceful.


And they're not even hybrids


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 6, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


>



In't that clissold pk?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 6, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> In't that clissold pk?



Yep.


----------



## GarveyLives (Oct 6, 2019)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yup. Amazing how fast white people will defend each other when the minority experience is pointed out as distinct from their privilege.


Please see:


> _"Extinction Rebellion is overwhelmingly shaped by the concerns, priorities, and ideas of middle-class white people. If it doesn't tackle white supremacy, it doesn't serve us ..."_




Stop Asking People of Color to Get Arrested to Protest Climate Change


----------



## campanula (Oct 6, 2019)

OMG, Fozzie Bear I looked at humans of XR in utter disbelief - I honestly thought it was a parody. These people...yep, I surely know they exist (there are uncomfortable similarities with my own daughter, on the surface)...but honestly, this parade of unutterably smug,  well-fed, clonish white people (are XR utterly  lacking in even a shred of self-awareness?) is enough for me to indulge in a hitherto suppressed disdain (who wants to be seen as curmudgeonly about activism, however feeble?). I can confidently state that not a single government policy maker or corporate bandit will lose a milliseconds sleep over the half-witted antics of this bunch of dreary, vomit-inducing dolts.


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 6, 2019)

My advice to to Thom Yorke (however it's spelt) is to top yourself mate and that's one less carbon footprint in the sand. Come on mate you've been hinting at it for years. Inject some real passion and belief into this thing before it fades into another passing fad.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Lambeth bridge London


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Lot of police and protestors.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2019)

Nice caption gramsci - i suspect not really required though.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Scuffles on Westminster bridge as protestors try to block bridge


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Westminster bridge now


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 7, 2019)

23 arrests so far.


----------



## andysays (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> View attachment 186192 View attachment 186193


I wish I didn't feel this way, but that sort of twattery almost makes me long for increased global warming


----------



## TopCat (Oct 7, 2019)

It all gets more real for both sides.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> I wish I didn't feel this way, but that sort of twattery almost makes me long for increased global warming


Boo


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

This time police are getting stuck in grabbing people and chucking them out the way.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 7, 2019)

The learning experience begins..


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Car was used to block road to Westminster bridge. The driver chained himself inside car. Took police four hours to cut him out.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Oct 7, 2019)

Some right knobs on LBC this morning going off one one about this. Ferrari egging them on as expected. Switched off and listened to some drum and bass instead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Scuffles on Westminster bridge as protestors try to block bridge View attachment 186198


there's your actual tsg


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

andysays said:


> I wish I didn't feel this way, but that sort of twattery almost makes me long for increased global warming


oh don't fuss, it's all fucked so it'll get as warm as you like


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Westminster bridge now


always interesting to see the cops channel their inner soldier


----------



## Rivendelboy (Oct 7, 2019)

skyscraper101 said:


> Some right knobs on LBC this morning going off one one about this. Ferrari egging them on as expected. Switched off and listened to some drum and bass instead.


I've come to think LBC is shit satire. They give a radio show to Farage during brexit ffs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I've come to think LBC is shit satire. They give a radio show to Farage during brexit ffs.


been pondering it long, have you?


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2019)

Rental vans as road blockers with one or more lock ons is a good tactic. The group is only risking their deposit not seizure of the vehicle. Also means ANPR isn’t going to be much help and old bill are going to have spend a lot of time pulling hire vans all over town.

Not sure about the fucking maracas though.


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The tsg used to use those silver box ones but those have for some time been used by level 2 cops too. The tsg now seem to have blue vans similar to city police riot cops with territorial support group painted on the side in white, which rather gives the game away


National standard for Level One vans has always been blue but the Met, as is always their endearing wont went there own way for The Spice Girls with the silver box vans. TBF the Mercedes sprinter box vans, which were built on the same base vehicle as ambulances of the time, were the only vans that could take a serial, a driver and all the kit and still have an air conditioning fit and stay under the weight limit. The old vans couldn’t have air-con. Presumably the new generation of transit and transit wannabe panel vans are lighter and so can have air-con and stay under the weight limit.


----------



## pesh (Oct 7, 2019)

A380 said:


> Rental vans as road blockers with one or more lock ons is a good tactic. The group is only risking their deposit not seizure of the vehicle. Also means ANPR isn’t going to be much help and old bill are going to have spend a lot of time pulling hire vans all over town.
> 
> Not sure about the fucking maracas though.


they didn't seem that keen to hold onto the vehicles they seized last time, the curtain sided truck that was blocking Waterloo bridge for a week in April was at pretty much every festival I went to this summer


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Wales in Marsham  street


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Camped out on roundabout on North side of Lambeth bridge.


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 7, 2019)

I swear one of the protestors on the news had a full on gurn going complete with the standard mile wide pupils. What a way to spend a Monday morning! Pilled up and on the march! Fair play!


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 7, 2019)

Let it Bee, let it Bee, let it Bee, let it Bee!


----------



## urbanspaceman (Oct 7, 2019)

I liked this article:

www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/07/the-madness-of-extinction-rebellion/

_"Let us no longer beat around the bush about these people. This is an upper-middle-class death cult.This is a millenarian movement that might speak of science, but which is driven by sheer irrationalism. By fear, moral exhaustion and misanthropy. This is the deflated, self-loathing bourgeoisie coming together to project their own psycho-social hang-ups on to society at large."_

It seems to me that ER's message appeals to the God-shaped hole that many people have in their brains. The same comfort of group identity, the same pleasure in criticising unbelievers, the same slightly kinky hunger for the Apocalypse. ER's hysteria could well turn the general public off the whole project - after all if things are that bad ("_18 months to save the planet_", Jul 2019), then one quite rational response is a fatalistic shrug.

There is a more attractive and rational narrative, but it's not got that thrilling end-times vibe:

1) Climate Change is a real, albeit slow, process
2) plenty of partial solutions exist (reforestation/rewilding, solar, wind, battery land management, new low-C processes for steel and concrete, electric vehicles, energy efficiency, green/white/solar roofs, agro-voltaics, new small Thorium reactors) which, as a holistic package, can address the problem
3) there need not be economic costs, in fact more jobs might be created. But we do need to abolish fossil fuel subsidies.
4) worst case, there do exist geoengineering fixes (atmospheric sulphur seeding, orbital mirrors, carbon burial, ocean fertilisation) but they are best kept in reserve
5) the UK is a pioneer in decarbonisation: carbon emissions are down to levels last seen in the 1880s, coal is pretty much finished in electricity generation, wind power continues to be rapidly built out

I'm optimistic - in the past year or two, it seems that governments are beginning to take action: www.climatechangenews.com/2019/09/23/russia-formally-joins-paris-climate-agreement/

Russia!


----------



## Idaho (Oct 7, 2019)

urbanspaceman said:


> I liked this article:
> 
> www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/07/the-madness-of-extinction-rebellion/
> 
> ...


There is an element of normalcy bias combined with _ad hominem_ in these kinds of critiques. Not wanting to agree or change because you find the speakers not to your liking, and the message sounds like hard work.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

A380 said:


> Rental vans as road blockers with one or more lock ons is a good tactic. The group is only risking their deposit not seizure of the vehicle. Also means ANPR isn’t going to be much help and old bill are going to have spend a lot of time pulling hire vans all over town.
> 
> Not sure about the fucking maracas though.



They are pulling over vans / small lorries in Horseferry road. Near the protest.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

More from the Welsh bit of protest. Marsham street contains several government offices. And is near Parliament.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Whitehall


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 7, 2019)

urbanspaceman said:


> I liked this article:
> 
> www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/07/the-madness-of-extinction-rebellion/
> 
> ...


Many people on xr are also working with councils on a local political level and also within movements such as labour for a green new deal.   The GND is very (overly? ) positive in its messaging 

But IPCC reports are dire ....I dont think its all about projecting self loathing outward


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Trafalgar Square


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Near Parliament square


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

The Mall near Buckingham palace


----------



## redcogs (Oct 7, 2019)

i hadn't realised i was sympathetic to an 'upper middle class' death cult'.  i do take the point though (to an extent).  As i viewed Gramscl's excellent photos, i was reminded of the times i've visited the nearby Findhorn Foundation (not as a participant in their carryings on, but to sample the excellent cafe cakes!).  The Foundation is full of the same stereotypes.  Really beautiful, overwhelmingly posh, flowing colourful garments with a certain style.  These are not bad people, far from it, they appear to be thoughtful and kind and thoroughly decent in that way that privilege allows. Yet you don't, generally speaking, want them anywhere near power structures because there is an absence of practicality, a detachment from the ordinary struggles of common people. Yet, we all know that we are at crisis point.  If the science predictions are even half way plausible the only chance of humans not having a Bladerunner  future is if humans of all stripes begin a process of dismantling conventional carbon economics and class domination.  If the dippyhippy contingent are leading the charge today, then surely we can lend support and hope for better as the movement develops? 

Beside which, i just want to stop weeping from impotence


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 7, 2019)

Who exactly are the "upper middle classes" Is it just a way of dividing not only the classes but the classes within the classes?  Very confusing.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 7, 2019)

savoloysam said:


> Who exactly are the "upper middle classes" Is it just a way of dividing not only the classes but the classes within the classes?  Very confusing.



North London, innit.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 7, 2019)

arent they the ones who shop at Sainsbury?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 7, 2019)

redcogs said:


> arent they the ones who shop at Sainsbury?



Pfft!  Maybe Waitrose if they're slumming it.


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 7, 2019)

redcogs said:


> arent they the ones who shop at Sainsbury?



Surely Waitrose but on a specific street?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 7, 2019)

savoloysam said:


> Who exactly are the "upper middle classes" Is it just a way of dividing not only the classes but the classes within the classes?  Very confusing.


Two or more generations of private education.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 7, 2019)

urbanspaceman said:


> I liked this article:
> 
> www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/07/the-madness-of-extinction-rebellion/
> 
> ...


Brendan O'Neill talking about middle class cults is it


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 7, 2019)

Brendan O'Neill also talking about projecting 'their own psycho-social hang ups onto society' is it. Fucks sake.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 7, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Brendan O'Neill talking about middle class cults is it



Pretty special, that.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Been impressed so far. They have managed to surround a lot of the area of central government.

The didn't get Lambeth bridge. I did chat to an XR. They did get the roundabout north of Lambeth bridge. Which causes more disruption. Told them its a good site. That roundabout camp blocks the bridge and north south traffic along the embankment.
It also links them to the Welsh lot in Marsham street.

The Trafalgar Square protest looks to me like they are digging in. Building some kind of scaffold pole structure. 

Police have been telling people to take structures/ tents down. They do and then re erect them nearby.

Was told there was some shoving and pushing with police this morning near Lambeth bridge. Numbers turning up mean police couldn't deal with it.

Numbers of people and non violence look to be working again. 

Surprised not more police out this morning on all the bridges.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 7, 2019)

Good on 'em.

I am baffled at those who feel that there is no climate issue; every other day there are worst ever wildfires, Greenland melting faster than ever, hottest ever months, coldest ever time, largest ever storm etc. Are people just blind to what's happening?

Most towns have an XR contingent, if as a lefty, working class, BAME, whatever you don't feel these people are you, either join 'em and change the make up of it, or start your own thing. Whilst XR's message is of imminent climate collapse, even if they are being too dramatic, it is blatantly fucking obvious that things are going to have to change radically or we're gonna be in deep shit.

I would join them, but it's raining and I'm off to Canada for the weekend on Friday


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2019)

The general tactic to have more and smaller sites seems to be the right one. It takes a lot of cops to remove people and it is harder to get them together across multiple places, particularly if folk are actually locked on, which means specialist teams are necessary. Meanwhile other people can move around.

Cops I saw were doing the usual thing of being friendly most of the time and then going down super hard on someone for no apparent reason - surrounding someone who did a dance about the Amazon on Whitehall for instance and going through his pockets. This is meant to be psychologically jarring but it doesn't work once you've seen it once, and doesn't really achieve anything in itself. It may just be reflex.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 7, 2019)

6pm on day one and >200 arrests so far.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 6pm on day one and >200 arrests so far.


One of the rare times when rain doesn't stop play


----------



## kenny g (Oct 7, 2019)

Pity it's pissing it down and I don't have a decent rain coat. To be honest that probably excludes people more than anything else.


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2019)

Good for them. Made me happy to see so many people, including young people taking action. They were country dancing in Victoria Street to keep warm.

Good tactics too, certainly better that selling papers or a march. Buggers up the city in terms of disruption. Will take up almost as many police hours over the event as proper rioting and jams the courts up whilst keeping a fair percentage of middle England- who will have to vote for and pick up the bills for the decarbonisation agenda.

Top stuff in my book.

But I realise ‘proper protest’ is six people selling shit newspapers outside an event of 30 people who hold very similar, but not quite identical views to the six. And yes I know - the only real cause is international communism/ socialism/ anarchism ( pick one) delivered through a revolutionary carde. But We HAVEN'T GOT TIME to wait any more.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 7, 2019)

A380 said:


> They were *country dancing* in Victoria Street to keep warm.



Right, that's going too far!


----------



## redcogs (Oct 7, 2019)

i was thinking similar cs - as long as they don't move on to morris dancing or incest


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

I came back home over Westminster bridge. Small group in the bridge. The van I posted up earlier was surrounded by police.

The structure they were building earlier had gone.

Police heavy handed tactics earlier in the day had worked.

This morning the police just got stuck in chucking people away from vans with XR equipment. They didn't arrest them just manhandled them out the way.

Response of XR was to sit in the road.

Police tactics worked. They have learnt from last time.

I think XR objectives were Lambeth bridge, Waterloo bridge and Parliament square.

XR have half succeeded.

I worry that police are learning from XR tactics and its going to get increasingly difficult to be completely non violent.

What I saw on Westminster bridge was one XR guy forcibly pushing himself through police to unload the van . It got confrontational. He did the right thing but was the only one.

I did chat to few XR people later on. Showed them my photos of Westminster bridge.

Stick response was Police have a job to do. They have to feed their families. You can't blame them.

XR train their members to think this.

I really like the XR members on the ground but have doubts about long term strategy of complete non violence.

I was told that early on near Lambeth bridge pushing and shoving went on before police backed off.

So its not as totally non violent as first time.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Westminster bridge this evening.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 7, 2019)

A380 said:


> But I realise ‘proper protest’ is six people selling shit newspapers outside an event of 30 people who hold very similar, but not quite identical views to the six.


I think it's also fairly silly to expect extinction rebellion not to be middle class. It's an abstract and intellectual cause driven through scientific modelling. It would make no sense for them to start campaigning about benefit sanctions. The flipside being that those in direct financial hardship are less likely to want to be involved.


----------



## lazythursday (Oct 7, 2019)

I am on a course at the moment that includes lots of info about the climate crisis. Fuck, the figures are scary. The amount of change that needs to happen to keep within 1.5 degrees is absolutely colossal and needs to start right now. If XR fails we really are fucked.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

The age groups I saw were older people and young people. So retired or students.

I was listening to radio four this morning and they were interviewing people from Totnes who were going. ( South West is where I came from originally). They were all very nice middle class retired people. Who felt they needed to protest for the first time in their lives to save their grandchildrens future.

They emphasised that they had lived law abiding respectable lives up to now.

Fair play to them.

But can't help thinking South West is full of these respectable retired people.

It's like the banner I saw today "beyond politics".

Its like a respectable middle class rebellion.

I like XR but think Idaho has a point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

lazythursday said:


> I am on a course at the moment that includes lots of info about the climate crisis. Fuck, the figures are scary. The amount of change that needs to happen to keep within 1.5 degrees is absolutely colossal and needs to start right now. If XR fails we really are fucked.


XR are going to fail. They've made certain of that with their dilletante approach to protest

So many people pooh-poohed the notion the cops could go in hard against xr last time round. And they've not done anything yet to xr like they did to the '09 climate camp in the city


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 7, 2019)

Watched some of the live stream earlier and seemed to have a carnival atmosphere at times.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Watched some of the live stream earlier and seemed to have a carnival atmosphere at times.



Yes it is.

My photos don't get this across today. Today they have been trying to get established so its been fraught.

One of the good things about XR is that they think protest should be about joy.

This imo many on left don't consider important.

It is . Protest should be joyful. Joy is going against our present system.

On this I think XR should get some credit.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> My photos don't get this across today. Today they have been trying to get established so its been fraught.
> 
> ...



Was there a concentration of the protest around the Chinese embassy as I understand they are one of the worlds worst polluters?


----------



## lazythursday (Oct 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> XR are going to fail. They've made certain of that with their dilletante approach to protest
> 
> So many people pooh-poohed the notion the cops could go in hard against xr last time round. And they've not done anything yet to xr like they did to the '09 climate camp in the city


When they do, perhaps it will get a lot more attention this time round. Perhaps it will take a load of nice middle class people's faces being smashed in. I'm ambivalent on XRs tactics but I'm glad that at least something is building.


----------



## newbie (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The age groups I saw were older people and young people. So retired or students.


October demos are always full of freshers, and that's not a bad thing. As for the retired folk, I know every journalist is told this is that particular wrinklies first ever protest, but nah, I reckon most of us have been doing it all our adult lives, despite the obvious futility 

I came home, big respect to those who are out all night.


----------



## lazythursday (Oct 7, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Was there a concentration of the protest around the Chinese embassy as I understand they are one of the worlds worst polluters?


Let's not forget that a high amount of said pollution belongs to us - it's the west's consumption emissions.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> XR are going to fail. They've made certain of that with their dilletante approach to protest
> 
> So many people pooh-poohed the notion the cops could go in hard against xr last time round. And they've not done anything yet to xr like they did to the '09 climate camp in the city




What model should they be working to and why hasn't anyone built it?


----------



## mx wcfc (Oct 7, 2019)

lazythursday said:


> Let's not forget that a high amount of said pollution belongs to us - it's the west's consumption emissions.


Exactly.  China's emissions are shit,but per capita, they are less than ours, becuase they make everything for us (western capitalism)


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2019)

General police approach today has been to seize infrastructure and anything that might make living on the streets possible I.e food and shelter. Stealing gazebos and cooking pots.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> General police approach today has been to seize infrastructure and anything that might make living on the streets possible I.e food and shelter. Stealing gazebos and cooking pots.



Seems plod’s execution of that was bang on today. Clear roads tomorrow.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 7, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> Exactly.  China's emissions are shit,but per capita, they are less than ours, becuase they make everything for us (western capitalism)



China is probably overlooked due to them producing cheap goods to the world.  Or protestors are just ignorant of China.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 7, 2019)

Did anyone see Steroid Maximus on the C4 news? hotter summers, more money to be made, his thoughts on global warming put a big smile on his face.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> What model should they be working to and why hasn't anyone built it?


One which doesn't fetishise getting nicked as a core aspect of activism, for a start

I think the models have been built in the past but what you have here is not something that's grown up organically but something which has been imposed by rh and his cohorts. If the politics of xr built on or learned from previous movements I think it would be more successful and resilient


----------



## lazythursday (Oct 7, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> China is probably overlooked due to them producing cheap goods to the world.  Or protestors are just ignorant of China.


You just don't get it. We consume those goods. We are just as responsible for those emissions. Arguably more so given our own history of colonialism and industrialisation.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> One which doesn't fetishise getting nicked as a core aspect of activism, for a start
> 
> I think the models have been built in the past but what you have here is not something that's grown up organically but something which has been imposed by rh and his cohorts. If the politics of xr built on or learned from previous movements I think it would be more successful and resilient



But why has it's growth dynamic been so successful. Why are movements built on "better" principles so lacklustre?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> General police approach today has been to seize infrastructure and anything that might make living on the streets possible I.e food and shelter. Stealing gazebos and cooking pots.



From what I've seen I agree with this.

Like having a police roadblock on Horseferry road. They were searching vans.

The heavy handed approach this morning on Westminster bridge. They didn't want XR to get their materials on the bridge to build structures.

The Police have looked at XR strategy and seen this as way to undermine two week protest.


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Seems plod’s execution of that was bang on today. Clear roads tomorrow.


No, attrition init, three new sites a day - two cleared and one remaining is seven by the weekend and 14 in two weeks. If XR keep it up the Met will run out of rest days to cover this.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Was there a concentration of the protest around the Chinese embassy as I understand they are one of the worlds worst polluters?



I think the XR view would be that this country is one of the first to industrialise and pollute the planet. It has a responsibility to work towards de carbonising its economy. 

Secondly XR rebellion is done country by country.

Each XR offishoot pressures its own government to do zero carbon economy by 2025.


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> China is probably overlooked due to them producing cheap goods to the world.  Or protestors are just ignorant of China.


Or have decided the best is the enemy of the good and decided even if they can’t influence China then they can still get off their arses and try to influence policy here.


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> XR are going to fail. They've made certain of that with their dilletante approach to protest
> 
> So many people pooh-poohed the notion the cops could go in hard against xr last time round. And they've not done anything yet to xr like they did to the '09 climate camp in the city


But if the old bill do get punchy that’s not necessarily a failure for XR, a good way to get their message across would be video, or better yet stills of loveable old folks or photogenic students getting a shoeing. It’s plays much better/ worse than the same Home Office approved tactics being used against black-block types or football risk groups.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

newbie said:


> October demos are always full of freshers, and that's not a bad thing. As for the retired folk, I know every journalist is told this is that particular wrinklies first ever protest, but nah, I reckon most of us have been doing it all our adult lives, despite the obvious futility
> 
> I came home, big respect to those who are out all night.



I don't agree. XR strong point is that they are media savvy. A journo from BBC would have been pointed in the right direction by XR to get the retired folk on the Today Programme. These of course are the listeners of the Today Programme.

Its part of the "Beyond Politics" idea. Climate change is such an global emergency that "politics" are irrelevant.

XR are pushing a political programme. from what I've seen today the leadership have the followers instructed in the same programme as before.

Making the present government untenable. Forcing them to negotiate with XR leadership. Getting them to pass law for zero carbon economy by 2025.

As democracy , in Hallam XR view doesn't work, replace democratically elected parliament with a "Peoples Assembly" drawn by lot like jury service.

This People's Assembly will be given choices over how to get to zero carbon by 2025 but not allowed to question this. What XR still say today is "deliberative".

As much as I think XR are doing a lot of good I don't feel I should have to support all of it.

On my patch in London, one of the most deprived in the country, I've been part of camapign to save local adventure playground.

I'm afraid to say some of the concerns of XR simply don't resonate with a working class community who have issues of gang violence and drastic cuts to youth services on their plate.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

I really wish XR would drop "Beyond Politics" from their banners. 

I keep thinking of Chuka and Change UK when I see it now.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> As much as I think XR are doing a lot of good I don't feel I should have to support all of it.
> 
> On my patch in London, one of the most deprived in the country, I've been part of camapign to save local adventure playground.
> 
> I'm afraid to say some of the concerns of XR simply don't resonate with a working class community who have issues of gang violence and drastic cuts to youth services on their plate.



Bit of a non sequitur?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> But why has it's growth dynamic been so successful. Why are movements built on "better" principles so lacklustre?


I'm washing up atm but will get back to you in the morning with a full answer


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I really wish XR would drop "Beyond Politics" from their banners.
> 
> I keep thinking of Chuka and Change UK chucking when I see it now.


C4U


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2019)

A380 said:


> But if the old bill do get punchy that’s not necessarily a failure for XR, a good way to get their message across would be video, or better yet stills of loveable old folks or photogenic students getting a shoeing. It’s plays much better/ worse than the same Home Office approved tactics being used against black-block types or football risk groups.


Oh it's not just that, it's loads of things like their dominant demographic being mc, like their position toward the cops (linked to who has turned out)... They've been feted for a season but I think they'll end up victims of their own success, scrapping over money, splitting over militancy, it's notable rh has studied protest methods but not what comes next, how a struggle develops


----------



## smokedout (Oct 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I came back home over Westminster bridge. Small group in the bridge. The van I posted up earlier was surrounded by police.
> 
> The structure they were building earlier had gone.
> 
> ...



I just got back from wandering round the sites.  Looks like Lambeth Bridge is cleared, and the smallish grouping on Millbank was surrounded withhout much infrastructure so I imagine that will be gone by morning.  Both  sites at the top of Parliament Square looked fairly solid, as does Whitehall, St Jame's Park is full of tents and Trafalgar Square is still blocked with a sound system playing.  It was all very nice if a bit middle class and sober and boring.

But I saw the opposite from police.  Apart from on Millbank, it was like they didn't care.  Gazebos and stuff were going up in Trafalgar Square and they were just standing and watching.  There were only a handful of uniforms round St Jame's Park and the Mall and no real sign of any police activity, no sirens in the background, lines of vans etc.  It was weird, like they'd surrendered.  Maybe they were taking a break and are planning a blood bath in the early hours, but none of the sites looked that much of a challenge for them to move, the big structures and vehicles were all loosely surrounded although there were still some lock ons, the roads were all closed and the coppers who were there were standing around eating McDs and chatting amongst themselves.  There certainly didn't seem like there was the will, numbers or intent to shut the thing down, although I guess things could look very different come the morning.


----------



## A380 (Oct 7, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh it's not just that, it's loads of things like their dominant demographic being mc, like their position toward the cops (linked to who has turned out)... They've been feted for a season but I think they'll end up victims of their own success, scrapping over money, splitting over militancy, it's notable rh has studied protest methods but not what comes next, how a struggle develops


Possibly. But who in the modern west has experience of successfully managing the next stage. Experience that is,  not theory of which there is shed loads, although often contradictory. I’m not sure I can think of one ( answers on here please?) and I’m not sure you can extrapolate from other parts of the world of pre First World War stuff.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I just got back from wandering round the sites.  Looks like Lambeth Bridge is cleared, and the smallish grouping on Millbank was surrounded withhout much infrastructure so I imagine that will be gone by morning.  Both  sites at the top of Parliament Square looked fairly solid, as does Whitehall, St Jame's Park is full of tents and Trafalgar Square is still blocked with a sound system playing.  It was all very nice if a bit middle class and sober and boring.
> 
> But I saw the opposite from police.  Apart from on Millbank, it was like they didn't care.  Gazebos and stuff were going up in Trafalgar Square and they were just standing and watching.  There were only a handful of uniforms round St Jame's Park and the Mall and no real sign of any police activity, no sirens in the background, lines of vans etc.  It was weird, like they'd surrendered.  Maybe they were taking a break and are planning a blood bath in the early hours, but none of the sites looked that much of a challenge for them to move, the big structures and vehicles were all loosely surrounded although there were still some lock ons, the roads were all closed and the coppers who were there were standing around eating McDs and chatting amongst themselves.  There certainly didn't seem like there was the will, numbers or intent to shut the thing down, although I guess things could look very different come the morning.



Agree about Millbank. The cops don't like something that near Parliament. I saw discussions with Cops going on as people tried to put tents on Millbank. Cops ignored tents in Marsham Street where the Home Office is. 

On the Mall the tents aren't in the way of the changing of the guard. They are near Trafalgar Square end. As cops close Mall most days for a few hours for changing of the guard they probably aren't bothered about the Mall. XR doing them a favour in closing it. Closing it for a few hours to change the guard is always a headache for PC Plod. 

I agree Trafalgar Square the cops gave up. It was small in the morning. By afternoon protestors had closed a lot of it off. 

I think police cuts mean they don't have enough cops to police protests like this. 

Maybe why they are happy with all the Welsh outside Priti Patel office in Marsham Street.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 8, 2019)

BBC reporting 280 arrests yesterday. I do reckon plod’s objective today will be to clear main roads/bridges.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 8, 2019)

And Johnson comes out with 
“uncooperative crusties in hemp smelling bivouacs”.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

A380 said:


> Possibly. But who in the modern west has experience of successfully managing the next stage. Experience that is,  not theory of which there is shed loads, although often contradictory. I’m not sure I can think of one ( answers on here please?) and I’m not sure you can extrapolate from other parts of the world of pre First World War stuff.


Not sure he's successfully managed this bit yet


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 8, 2019)

Blimey, impressive list below.

But as of 6.30am today these roads were closed or partially blocked.

The Mall 
Whitehall
Parliament Street
Parliament Square
Broad Sanctuary
Victoria Street
Abingdon Street
Millbank
Horse Guards Road
Westminster Bridge
Horseferry Road
Great Peter Street
The Strand
Northumberland Avenue
Cockspur Street
Pall Mall East
All roads around Trafalgar Square
Extinction Rebellion: Google Maps shows central London road closures | Metro News


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 8, 2019)

The link below has a round-up of some of the protests from across the globe, together with photos from various countries. 



> Extinction Rebellion have promised to shut down more than 60 international cities with two weeks of global climate change protests.
> 
> The environmentalist movement, which uses civil disobedience to try and compel governments to act, says more than 850 worldwide events are planned across the next fortnight.
> 
> Cities such as London, Sydney, New York, Mumbai, Buenos Aires and Cape Town are all facing major disruptions as protests kicked off on the weekend.



Worldwide Extinction Rebellion protests shut down Madrid to Sydney | Metro News


----------



## Libertad (Oct 8, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And Johnson comes out with
> “uncooperative crusties in hemp smelling bivouacs”.



Stinky Rebellion.


----------



## chilango (Oct 8, 2019)

Johnson's comments are lazy and foolish.

I dunno about in London, but here XR appears to be full of "respectable middle-aged, middle-class" types. 

Which is an issue.

But it makes Johnson look completely out of touch.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 8, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And Johnson comes out with
> “uncooperative crusties in hemp smelling bivouacs”.



Pure playing to his gallery.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> But why has it's growth dynamic been so successful. Why are movements built on "better" principles so lacklustre?


They have not just appeared. This was built up over decades. From before Newbury to RTS, onto Climate Camps, Green Gatherings,  Occupy etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> But why has it's growth dynamic been so successful. Why are movements built on "better" principles so lacklustre?


tbh it's difficult to answer your first question, as although its initial growth was spectacular, it's not obvious whether its (british) growth has continued, or what the turnover of adherents is. are its numbers increasing or are they treading water? while it is astonishing that a movement could blossom out of nowhere, i am yet to be persuaded that this is a hardy perennial. what seems to me to have happened is that it has struck a chord as the 'make poverty history' campaign of 2005 struck a chord with so many people. however, looking at the people who make up the bulk of xr's street presence, they seem a) white and b) middle class. there also seems to be a streak of new age thinking running through the movement, with people pictured yesterday meditating on one of the bridges. i wonder whether xr as it is has reached its apogee and changes might have to be made if it is to grow and become resilient. 

one thing which is a general feature of anarchist and socialist protests is movement. people march through the streets, whether from a to b on a route agreed with the police or as a wandering mob or mass. the advantages possessed by people out for one of the may days (after 2000) or for the later student protests was were their movement and their unpredictability. being static removes the ability of protesters to retain the initiative, and leaves control of events largely with the police: xr remain where they are at the pleasure of the police.  this surrenders the great advantages people who were out at j18, on some of the maydays and on the student protests enjoyed. but xr have made two rods for their own backs. on the one hand their stated aim is to change government policy, while on the other they want to act in way which they think will retain public confidence. I don't think they can have it both ways, either they put on a serious and sustained campaign of civil disobedience which encompasses not only blocking streets and bridges but non-cooperation with the state and recognises that push may well come to shove, or they're an irritant to government and the police and of no real use in forcing change any more than the occasional one-day strike really furthers workers' interests. 

as this is a constructed movement, as opposed to campaigns which have developed organically, i suspect it contains the seeds of its own destruction as it tries to be so many things to so many people. without a clear political direction or tendency i feel it is built on sand and will splinter fairly easily. xr is currently bright and shiny but unless they do something new soon they will soon be as lacklustre as other movements.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

TopCat said:


> They have not just appeared. This was built up over decades. From before Newbury to RTS, onto Climate Camps, Green Gatherings,  Occupy etc.


i appreciate the genealogy you draw, but the groups you mention encompassed a great diversity of tactics while xr seem to have only one. i'm not saying getting a load of people together and blocking shit is in itself bad, but it's pretty useless if there aren't an array of other things being done.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i appreciate the genealogy you draw, but the groups you mention encompassed a great diversity of tactics while xr seem to have only one. i'm not saying getting a load of people together and blocking shit is in itself bad, but it's pretty useless if there aren't an array of other things being done.


Yes indeed. However. A lot of the people are the same throughout. Changed their approaches. Learned. Still absolutely wedded to non violence.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i appreciate the genealogy you draw, but the groups you mention encompassed a great diversity of tactics while xr seem to have only one. i'm not saying getting a load of people together and blocking shit is in itself bad, but it's pretty useless if there aren't an array of other things being done.


Givinv leeway to new groups to do their own actions will surely diversify tactics.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2019)

Anyway. What they up to this morning?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2019)

City airport is the announced target no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Yes indeed. However. A lot of the people are the same throughout. Changed their approaches. Learned. Still absolutely wedded to non violence.


there's the problem, because non-violence like this only allows the protests to exist while the police are willing to let it go ahead. tweaking their tactics, like using a sort of glue which is immune to acetone or attaching themselves to different things, might improve what for want of a better term i'll describe as their operational efficiency. while nv might work for the people who've a long and proud record in this area, i'm not sure whether it attracts or deters other, new, people from becoming involved


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

TopCat said:


> City airport is the announced target no?


good luck to them


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2019)

The have lost Westminster bridge but have camp in Trafalgar Square this morning


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 8, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Anyway. What they up to this morning?



It’s hard to tell watching the #ExtinctionRebellionLondon on twitter as most of the tweets are hate & vitriol, Boris supporting knuckle dragging patriots.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> ..while nv might work for the people who've a long and proud record in this area, i'm not sure whether it attracts or deters other, new, people from becoming involved


Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent. Any deviation from that will see the group expressly outlawed and a large escalation in government rhetoric, organised violence and suppression.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent. Any deviation from that will see the group expressly outlawed and a large escalation in government rhetoric, organised violence and suppression.


please don't post such arrant rubbish. you don't add anything with your comments here, rather you betray a sorry ignorance. were anti-poll tax groups outlawed? or anti-fascist groups? class war with the famous 'keep it spikey' leaflet, they were never 'expressly outlawed'. i don't suppose you can name a single popular protest movement which has been expressly outlawed in the country on the basis of its position on violence.

my point's quite simple. xr has attracted a number of people at least partly because of their position on violence. has it deterred others from joining? i suspect it has. it also lays the ground for a potential split because nothing they have done thus far seems to have changed the government's position on the matter one iota.


----------



## chilango (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent.



That's just not true though.

It might be the case right here, right now. But in other times and other places it's just not the case.

So, as the second part of your posts says the question of non-violence is a practical one subject to change. To be considered, discussed and developed alongside other matters of strategy and tactics.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> anti-poll tax groups outlawed? or anti-fascist groups? class war with the famous 'keep it spikey' leaflet,


Poll tax protest was much more a coming together of different groups (trade union, political, religious, local) on the one topic. Anti fascist groups are smaller and more reactive than XR. Class war? Aren't they just for comedy relief?



chilango said:


> It might be the case right here, right now. But in other times and other places it's just not the case.


I am talking about the right here, right now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Poll tax protest was much more a coming together of different groups (trade union, political, religious, local) on the one topic.


what we might, following you, describe as a popular protest movement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I am talking about the right here, right now.


you made a categorical assertion, sadly one without any genuine basis in fact


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 8, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And Johnson comes out with
> “uncooperative crusties in hemp smelling bivouacs”.



Yeah, the language used isn't very original. But still, a lot of cuntish trolling from him

_Johnson listed issues on which he claimed Thatcher was right, including her approach to “*bring about … the end of apartheid*”. According to an account of his comments briefed out by No 10 on Monday evening, he said: “I hope that when we go out from this place tonight and we are waylaid by *importunate nose-ringed climate change protesters * we remind them that [Thatcher] was also right about greenhouse gases.

“And she took it seriously long before Greta Thunberg. And the best thing possible for the education of the denizens of the heaving hemp-smelling bivouacs that now litter Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park, the best thing would be for them to stop blocking the traffic and buy a copy of Charles’s magnificent book so that they can learn about *a true feminist, green and revolutionary who changed the world for the better.*”_

Extinction Rebellion: Johnson calls climate crisis activists 'uncooperative crusties'

Ugh.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> what we might, following you, describe as a popular protest movement.


But any specific one of the various groups protesting against the poll tax could have been outlawed with the overall protests unchanged.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> But any specific one of the various groups protesting against the poll tax could have been outlawed with the overall protests unchanged.


by no means. the proscription of an organisation, which is what you're suggesting, would have made a difference to the political context: it took many years for the uda to be proscribed yet you're saying that one hint of supporting the notion of street fighting and a group would be cast into the legal outer darkness. you're talking bollocks. if e.g camden stop the poll tax, one of whose posters advocated dropping heavy objects on bailiffs, had been proscribed other anti-poll tax groups would - without doubt - have raised the ante.


----------



## chilango (Oct 8, 2019)

To put it another way.

*If the situation is as severe, and as urgent, as XR's rhetoric proclaims then violence is absolutely and utterly justified.*

If it's what will work most quickly and completely.

If that is the case then sticking to a principle of non-violence on individual moral grounds is equally absolutely and utterly unjustified.

So, it's the "if" that needs examining. The where, when and how.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

What kind of violence are you going to see? What would you expect that violence to achieve? I suspect you just want a bit of armchair entertainment.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2019)

A few more Trafalgar Square


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> What kind of violence are you going to see? What would you expect that violence to achieve?


you seem rather certain all of a sudden that there will be violence.


----------



## chilango (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> What kind of violence are you going to see? What would you expect that violence to achieve?



If, as XR appear to be saying, we're pretty much fighting against the deaths of billions, mass extinctions, the end of humanity and the death of the planet...and it's happening right now....then pretty much anything is justified in the face of that.

I don't happen to believe that actually is what we are facing though. But XR are creating a scenario where pretty much anything is morally preferable to allowing things to continue as they are.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Oct 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> A few more Trafalgar Square


Orbital saying they're playing there at 7PM tonight, if that's your thing.


...I'm guessing they might well play "Impact (The earth Is Burning)"


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

chilango said:


> If, as XR appear to be saying, we're pretty much fighting against the deaths of billions, mass extinctions, the end of humanity and the death of the planet...and it's happening right now....then pretty much anything is justified in the face of that.
> 
> I don't happen to believe that actually is what we are facing though. But XR are creating a scenario where pretty much anything is morally preferable to allowing things to continue as they are.


You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.


perhaps you could enumerate these 'lots of reasons'

i am intrigued that you say there are 'always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action', you're sounding rather positive about violence now.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could enumerate these 'lots of reasons'
> 
> i am intrigued that you say there are 'always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action', you're sounding rather positive about violence now.


Do I want to explain in detail something to which you are already well set to dispute and disagree with? I don't have the time and interest to unpick the assumptions and conflations you've made.

Things that are not the same thing:

- XR non violent strategy
- the use of violence
- police response locally
- government response
- my personal views and politics

You've merged some of these in your comments. I'll leave you to work out which.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Do I want to explain in detail something to which you are already well set to dispute and disagree with? I don't have the time and interest to unpick the assumptions and conflations you've made.
> 
> Things that are not the same thing:
> 
> ...


what are iyo these 'lots of reasons'?


----------



## chilango (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.



No. I'm saying that if its critical - both in terms of severity and urgency - then whatever wins most quickly and completely is the best approach. I don't know whether that's with violence or not. But if these are the ground upon which we are rebelling (not protesting, *rebelling*) then you cannot morally or practically or logically preemptively rule out the use of violence on our part.


----------



## chilango (Oct 8, 2019)

For the record, I'm not advocating the use of violence right here, right now. "You can't blow up a social relationship" as we used to say. I just think it's foolish to insist upon absolute non-violence as a principle.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

chilango said:


> No. I'm saying that if its critical - both in terms of severity and urgency - then whatever wins most quickly and completely is the best approach. I don't know whether that's with violence or not. But if these are the ground upon which we are rebelling (not protesting, *rebelling*) then you cannot morally or practically or logically preemptively rule out the use of violence on our part.


I understand what you are saying. My feeling on it is that in this inception phase, it's important for the movement to spread across political and social groups. For this it needs to play nice. Perhaps in a few years there will be more scope for drama.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I understand what you are saying. My feeling on it is that in this inception phase, it's important for the movement to spread across political and social groups. For this it needs to play nice. Perhaps in a few years there will be more scope for drama.


perhaps in a few years time there will be rather more drama than you're comfortable with


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 8, 2019)

Oh, Gramsci, thank you for taking the time to take the photos and upload them here, am hugely appreciating your efforts.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent. Any deviation from that will see the group expressly outlawed and a large escalation in government rhetoric, organised violence and suppression.



You're making the same mistake as Hallam here when he claims that non violence is the most effective way to bring about regime change.  Hallam bases this theory on a study which showed that non paramilitary or guerilla mass movements were more effective.  However these 'peaceful' movements were not passive in the way XR strives to be, they involved penty of confrontation, rioting and fighting back, they just didn't involve organised armed struggle to any large extent.  To equate something like the 2011 Egyptian revolution with the kind of love the police lie down and get arrested approach of XR is specious.  You don't have to take up arms to have a spiky street presence with the ability to defend itself and slow down or hamper the actions of the state in stopping it - in fact it's exactly what you need if you are going to genuinely disrupt capital and move beyond the kind of spectacle that XR are very good at, but which is clearly not really troubling the state.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 8, 2019)

Taking position all protest should be non violent is like complaining strikes cause disruption to the public. Either the aim is to make clear you are against x,y,z, in which case fine have a cake sale and a petition, or its to force change


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 8, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> And Johnson comes out with
> “uncooperative crusties in hemp smelling bivouacs”.



Truly magnificent. He just can't help himself. This type of language will lose him more voters than it wins.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

chilango said:


> For the record, I'm not advocating the use of violence right here, right now. "You can't blow up a social relationship" as we used to say. I just think it's foolish to insist upon absolute non-violence as a principle.



The non-violence thing is basically PR.  They are trying to get themselves implanted as "the good guys" or at least "some harmless, slightly flakey guys making an actual point" in most people's minds before the general media makes its mind up and paints them as terrorists.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

savoloysam said:


> Truly magnificent. He just can't help himself. This type of language will lose him more voters than he wins.



He thinks he can carry on using the same tricks that worked when he was writing for that shitrag, only the audience has broadened somewhat.


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> He thinks he can carry on using the same tricks that worked when he was writing for that shitrag, only the audience has broadened somewhat.



The "Bristish Trump" moniker really sticks with this guy. You're not supposed to run with it, Boris


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

savoloysam said:


> The "Bristish Trump" moniker really sticks with this guy. You're not supposed to run with it, Boris



To be fair, he's a lot more lyrical with his insults than Trump could ever manage.

It's just that he's objectively wrong - these aren't a mass of Swampies.  There are a huge number of politically noobish teenagers, and middle-class older folk concerned about younger generations.


----------



## savoloysam (Oct 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> To be fair, he's a lot more lyrical with his insults than Trump could ever manage.
> 
> It's just that he's objectively wrong - these aren't a mass of Swampies.  There are a huge number of politically noobish teenagers, and middle-class older folk concerned about younger generations.



And as pointed out earlier a lot of well off retirees (Not sure of my spelling there or if that's even a word) most of whom are guaranteed voters. Which is why I think his comment is magnificent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> The non-violence thing is basically PR.  They are trying to get themselves implanted as "the good guys" or at least "some harmless, slightly flakey guys making an actual point" in most people's minds before the general media makes its mind up and paints them as terrorists.



Makes total sense as well. If they took the 'nuanced' approach of saying 'under present conditions we're opposed to violence but we cannot rule it out under possible alternative circumstances without a full cost-benefit analysis,' the media would rip them to shreds.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.



More than a little uneasy, innit.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.


That seems fair enough tbh. Many of those activists come with their own agendas, micro feuds, barely-concealed-desire-for-control, sense of superiority, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> That seems fair enough tbh. Many of those activists come with their own agendas, micro feuds, barely-concealed-desire-for-control, sense of superiority, etc.


you'd seem to occupy a high stratum of the smugosphere, but perhaps you could outline the lots of reasons you mentioned above.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.


You are at least prepared to discuss it now.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

TopCat said:


> You are at least prepared to discuss it now.


Yeah I will discuss in a limited way. No point going into elaborate detail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Yeah I will discuss in a limited way. No point going into elaborate detail.


nothing you can get pinned down on obvs, like the lots of reasons you mention.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> nothing you can get pinned down on obvs, like the lots of reasons you mention.


I generally keep taking to you to a minimum. You are an ever-presence on urban. If you posted as much as most others then responding to you would be fine. But it's a bit like going to your local and always somehow being on the table next to the same person with them butting into every conversation.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.



This linked from there is worth reading as well: Bloodless Lies


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I generally keep taking to you to a minimum. You are an ever-presence on urban. If you posted as much as most others then responding to you would be fine. But it's a bit like going to your local and always somehow being on the table next to the same person with them butting into every conversation.


if only you'd outline the lots of reasons you mentioned then this little exchange would be over. as it is i am forced to conclude you put in 'lots of reasons' without thinking you'd ever have to list them, that these reasons exist only in your imagination.

no one *made* you start this exchange (your post 2111) and it's disappointingly typical but not surprising that you now fail to substantiate your claims.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if only you'd outline the lots of reasons you mentioned then this little exchange would be over. as it is i am forced to conclude you put in 'lots of reasons' without thinking you'd ever have to list them, that these reasons exist only in your imagination.
> 
> no one *made* you start this exchange (your post 2111) and it's disappointingly typical but not surprising that you now fail to substantiate your claims.


This exchange would be over?! Really? I think me listing lots of reasons would only be the start of it. 8ball highlighted a number of them above.

You have this ludicrous and pompous belief that discussion on here is something meaningful and important and not just an entertaining distraction.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> You have this ludicrous and pompous belief that discussion on here is something meaningful and important and not just an entertaining distraction.


often what is discussed here is meaningful and important. you belittle the community which exists here if you think that threads started by people who've just lost loved ones or have been diagnosed with serious illnesses are just an entertaining distraction. it's not only threads like those, which can make a real difference to posters' lives, but also threads like these. there's a certain rigour here when political matters are discussed. if you're going to make claims and then try to weasel out of them perhaps you'd be better off not posting at all. this isn't some thread in general in which no one's *that* fussed, this is about an important thing which is happening at the moment. if you think it's only an entertaining distration perhaps some other boards might be more to your liking.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> often what is discussed here is meaningful and important. you belittle the community which exists here if you think that threads started by people who've just lost loved ones or have been diagnosed with serious illnesses are just an entertaining distraction. it's not only threads like those, which can make a real difference to posters' lives, but also threads like these. there's a certain rigour here when political matters are discussed. if you're going to make claims and then try to weasel out of them perhaps you'd be better off not posting at all. this isn't some thread in general in which no one's *that* fussed, this is about an important thing which is happening at the moment. if you think it's only an entertaining distration perhaps some other boards might be more to your liking.


If you think all the posts are deeply significant, and you are happy to post so much, then it naturally follows that you rate your own content very highly.



> you belittle the community which exists here


I think this is a very weak play to the gallery


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> If you think all the posts are deeply significant, and you are happy to post so much, then it naturally follows that you rate your own content very highly.


no it doesn't, in great part because i never said 'all the posts are deeply significant': but when i'm asked questions about my posts i do answer them.




> I think this is a very weak play to the gallery


if you honestly think that everything here is an entertaining distraction then you really ought to take a long look at yourself.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> If you think all the posts are deeply significant, and you are happy to post so much, then it naturally follows that you rate your own content very highly.
> 
> 
> I think this is a very weak play to the gallery



Just for the record, whilst not always agreeing with Pickmans model, i find his content stimulating and treat it respectfully because it seems genuine and honest and experience based.  Its also often humourful, always a bonus.  As for whether the forums general content has meaning over and above being an "entertaining distraction", i believe it has.  I've learned much from my intermittent engagement, and as an area where political strategy and tactics can be debated in a fruitful and comradely way i reckon its without parallel on the Left.

So, if you regard it as trivial maybe elsewhere IS the place to go?.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

redcogs said:


> ...as an area where political strategy and tactics can be debated in a fruitful and comradely way i reckon its without parallel on the Left.



The Left is in a pretty dire state tbf.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 8, 2019)

redcogs said:


> as an area where political strategy and tactics can be debated in a fruitful and comradely way i reckon its without parallel on the Left.


Is XR on the left though?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Is XR on the left though?


he's talking about *urban* there not about xr


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2019)

Section 14 now imposed: everyone is supposed to go to Trafalgar Square, which of course gives up the advantage of multiple sites.



I got the impression that the cops wanted to either clear Whitehall or do quite a lot of arrests there this afternoon - big lines marching in as I wandered out, and cops blocking people leaving southbound if they thought they were protestors. Whitehall is quite an easy street to kettle people in.

eta: and lo and behold, just now I see there is a kettle on Whitehall


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Section 14 now imposed: everyone is supposed to go to Trafalgar Square, which of course gives up the advantage of multiple sites.
> 
> 
> 
> I got the impression that the cops wanted to either clear Whitehall or do quite a lot of arrests there this afternoon - big lines marching in as I wandered out, and cops blocking people leaving southbound if they thought they were protestors. Whitehall is quite an easy street to kettle people in.




I like the "in order to prevent significant disruption to the life of the community" bit.
How far above sea level is Central London (moreover, how high can flood tides get before those barriers stop working)?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> I like the "in order to prevent significant disruption to the life of the community" bit.
> How far above sea level is Central London?


3.9-5m


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> 3.9-5m



I don't know enough about tides etc. to do anything meaningful with that.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 8, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Is XR on the left though?


XR isn't a fixed and static organisation is my impression. It might develop in a left direction as it experiences the tribulations of the state's response towards its activities.  OK, it might not, and certainly there is a dubiousness about  eco activist core ideas.  But we gotta be optimistic - XR can offer great opportunities for anti cap initiatives?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 8, 2019)




----------



## redcogs (Oct 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> The Left is in a pretty dire state tbf.


Agreed 8ball.  i didnae 'like' your post cos its a source of considerable  regret that our side is in such disarray..


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 8, 2019)

Went round some of the sites this afternoon. I can't help cringing at the clowning-hulahoop-hippie axis being so strong, but the level of organisation and commitment is impressive. It's like running six Occupy camps at once (and with the slight political void that Occupy had).

A friend of a friend currently locked on at a junction told me the police tried to hand her a Section 14 notice earlier, but she was being a clown at the time, 'and clowns don't take Section 14s'  

I've been waiting for the wheels to come off XR but it's still growing. I wish it had some better politics behind it but given the low level of left wing organising in the UK for the last 30 years perhaps it isn't surprising that it doesn't. I sort of feel the urge to be involved despite the dodgy politics, just because it's fun to be part of a buzzing mass mobilisation, and perhaps it can be turned in better directions. But the fact is I still struggle to see it as the right way to expend so much energy. What does it lead to? Roger Hallam getting a seat round the table with some politicians to help negotiate for a few things? And when they turn out to be only minor or cosmetic changes, can this level of energy be maintained to push things further?

Or perhaps you could see such large mobilisations as trying to alter the social consensus somewhat. It may be useful for doing that, but that's when the hula-hooping glitter fairies start to seem problematic - it's back in the subcultural territory that UK activism has been trapped in for decades.

*sigh*


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



It felt like it was getting hairy this afternoon, which is something I didn't feel at the last one. Even when I got caught in between police lines at Oxford Circus I was able to just sit down and have a coffee and a fag and then wander off. Today my kettle-sense was definitely tingling.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 8, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> I've been waiting for the wheels to come off XR but it's still growing. I wish it had some better politics behind it but given the low level of left wing organising in the UK for the last 30 years perhaps it isn't surprising that it doesn't. I sort of feel the urge to be involved despite the dodgy politics, just because it's fun to be part of a buzzing mass mobilisation, and perhaps it can be turned in better directions. But the fact is I still struggle to see it as the right way to expend so much energy. What does it lead to? Roger Hallam getting a seat round the table with some politicians to help negotiate for a few things? And when they turn out to be only minor or cosmetic changes, can this level of energy be maintained to push things further?



XR believe that the end of life on Earth as we know it is imminent. Therefore getting better conditions for X,Y or Z is immaterial. They are not suggesting sitting around with politicians, they are demanding a people's assembly to solve the issue. Anything less will not do. 

So yeah, so long as the science continues to deliver the information that fuels the belief, XR will continue and will only grow as more and more people come to share the belief.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 8, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So yeah, so long as the science continues to deliver the information that fuels the belief, XR will continue and will only grow as more and more people come to share the belief.



Mm. Not sure about that.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 8, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Mm. Not sure about that.



Really? 

When every new day brings news of the climate breaking down affecting more and more people. I reckon most of us know the climate is fucked and we each need to do something radical to stop very serious consequences, but we each have a tipping point as to what it will take us to see/know/believe before we take that action. But once you take that leap I can't see how you can ever go back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Really?
> 
> When every new day brings news of the climate breaking down affecting more and more people. I reckon most of us know the climate is fucked and we each need to do something radical to stop very serious consequences, but we each have a tipping point as to what it will take us to see/know/believe before we take that action. But once you take that leap I can't see how you can ever go back.


I think TopCat may be taking issue with your sunny predictions for xr's future rather than your bit about climate breakdown


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

Brainaddict said:


> Went round some of the sites this afternoon. I can't help cringing at the clowning-hulahoop-hippie axis being so strong, but the level of organisation and commitment is impressive. It's like running six Occupy camps at once (and with the slight political void that Occupy had).
> 
> A friend of a friend currently locked on at a junction told me the police tried to hand her a Section 14 notice earlier, but she was being a clown at the time, 'and clowns don't take Section 14s'
> 
> ...


Occupy didn't have a political void, it was crammed with 'loons


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Occupy didn't have a political void, it was crammed with 'loons



I can see where Brainaddict is coming from.  I had a row with a fervent Occupier at the time over his decision to cross a picket line.


----------



## campanula (Oct 8, 2019)

I always like to see people on the street - fear of the unruly mob is generally something most governments strive to avoid (more of us than them) and I like the idea of collective action and responsibility. However, that's about as far as it goes, for me. I have no money or appetite to chop up perfectly good sheets to make banners, am even less inclined to dress up in facepaint...but mostly, it is the jarring hypocrisy from people who are all ever so keen on jaunting about the world in planes, probably have never had to rely on public transport, who no doubt possess a vast collection of gadgetry, shop often for disposable fashion, indulge in food fads of every type. The sort who would be horrified if all washing machines and dishwashers were no longer produced (we could have a laundry on every street corner - I still recall these with some joy), who all possess smart phones, several PCs, tablets, gaming devices...yet have never had to actually struggle for  much in their lives.
I know what is needed...and it is an unpalatable truth for the vast majority of all of us in the global north...and what's more, I have not the tiniest objection  to a forceful redistribution, of property, empty houses or those used as investment opportunities, prohibiting all second home ownership in fact, private property across the board and hitting at the heart of consumer capitalism with purposeful boycotts, refusal to buy endless amounts of stuff and an absolute negation of  the idea of individual rights being somehow far more important than collective and community rights. I have a secure tenancy, clean water and do not go to bed hungry...
There is enough space and resources on earth to carry everyone...the fundamental problems which we urgently need to solve are global redistribution...of technology, skills, wealth, land, water


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I think TopCat may be taking issue with your sunny predictions for xr's future rather than your bit about climate breakdown



Right.

XR isn't really my cup of tea, it's different to anything I have been involved with before. I like my protests with a few cans of lager and the chance to have a punch up with the police, XR doesn't offer that. However the few times I have run in to XR stuff I have been shocked at how well received it is, by people who are not anarcho-crusties, not sleeping in hempy-bivouacs. They are just normal people, a bit of bias to white-middle class, but run-ins I have had with them have been in my area, which is a white-middle class area, so it will always be leaning that way.

Genteel Guildford on a Friday afternoon a couple of weeks ago managed this:





With a high street shop:




Over to Godalming:

The Town Council provided this space:




At the town's summer festival, Staycation Live, XR were given half of the second stage area and they were mobbed on both days:









This is a small town in an area whose inhabitants will be some of the last to feel the worst effects of climate change. This kind of shit is going on all over the country. As people get the message that something must be done, where else is there other than XR for them to turn to?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

campanula said:


> I always like to see people on the street - fear of the unruly mob is generally something most governments strive to avoid (more of us than them) and I like the idea of collective action and responsibility. However, that's about as far as it goes, for me. I have no money or appetite to chop up perfectly good sheets to make banners, am even less inclined to dress up in facepaint...but mostly, it is the jarring hypocrisy from people who are all ever so keen on jaunting about the world in planes, probably have never had to rely on public transport, who no doubt possess a vast collection of gadgetry, shop often for disposable fashion, indulge in food fads of every type. The sort who would be horrified if all washing machines and dishwashers were no longer produced (we could have a laundry on every street corner - I still recall these with some joy), who all possess smart phones, several PCs, tablets, gaming devices...yet have never had to actually struggle for  much in their lives.
> I know what is needed...and it is an unpalatable truth for the vast majority of all of us in the global north...and what's more, I have not the tiniest objection  to a forceful redistribution, of property, empty houses or those used as investment opportunities, prohibiting all second home ownership in fact, private property across the board and hitting at the heart of consumer capitalism with purposeful boycotts, refusal to buy endless amounts of stuff and an absolute negation of  the idea of individual rights being somehow far more important than collective and community rights. I have a secure tenancy, clean water and do not go to bed hungry...
> There is enough space and resources on earth to carry everyone...the fundamental problems which we urgently need to solve are global redistribution...of technology, skills, wealth, land, water



You missed out collectivising the farms and exterminating the intelligentsia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> You missed out collectivising the farms and exterminating the intelligentsia.


Those go without saying


----------



## 8ball (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Those go without saying



I predict a sudden and vertiginous drop in pedantry levels from you as soon as they get started on the latter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

8ball said:


> I predict a sudden and vertiginous drop in pedantry levels from you as soon as they get started on the latter.


By no means, I am firmly of the view that in the eyes of future inquisitors my posts here will be held to exclude me from the ranks of the intelligentsia

Look, for example, at my recorded reading on the various reading challenge threads which consists almost without exception of detective stories or fantasy or horror.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 8, 2019)

i cant accept this Pickmans model.  im a lot thicker than you, i watch telly, a favourite passtime being netflix bingeing!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> By no means, I am firmly of the view that in the eyes of future inquisitors my posts here will be held to exclude me from the ranks of the intelligentsia
> 
> Look, for example, at my recorded reading on the various reading challenge threads which consists almost without exception of detective stories or fantasy or horror.




So you don’t deny that you’ve read _books _then


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i cant accept this Pickmans model.  im a lot thicker than you, i watch telly, a favourite passtime being netflix bingeing!


Yeh I've been enjoying bingeing on daredevil and the punisher


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.



That Cory Morningstar stuff is pretty tin foil hat.

I  thought the point of Hallam's talk here was basically how to stop a social movement being dragged down by "The Left" a problem I'm sure many on here have grappled with.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2019)

More update from my evening in central London.

Whitehall was busy with XR closed to traffic   lots of cops around Westminster bridge and Lambeth bridge. 

I cycled through Parliament square. Kurdish demo and the Brexit for and against demos. 

At beginning of Millbank by Houses of Parliament stand off between police and protestors sitting in the road. 

The protestors have lost the roundabout but were still in Marsham street.

The police were letting cyclists leave parliament square but not enter.

I'm impressed by XR protestors who have made the effort to come to London from far away.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2019)

After going through Parliament square I went to see if the Welsh lot were still in Marsham street outside Priti Patel HQ.

Yes they were ( at 6pm).

Ended up having a chat with one of the XRs giving out leaflets. XR have people giving out leaflets and trying to engage with passers by. A thankless task I know from experience.

So I felt sorry for him and we had nice long chat. Plus Im originally from South West so curious. Wales and South West have combined for London protests.

He asked me about tactics of closing roads. I said no problems with that. He said this time lot of negative stuff on that.

Showed him this site and he was pleased it was getting coverage here and issues are being debated here.

I feel XR protestors are feeling a lot of right wing dislike this time around. He was telling me about Daily Mail coverage. Boris is making it respectable imo with his comments. 

So XR activists are feeling more of a backlash this time. 
We then got onto politics. I said most people agree about the climate change issue.

I wasn't keen on the "beyond politics" banners. We then got onto why leftish people but not Tories accepted climate change issue. He felt  broad based movement should be able to appeal to Tories. But he also saw they didn't support XR view on climate emergency.

I did say XR should perhaps move from "beyond politics" slogan to saying socialist Green new deal was something they support. And give up on trying to build on a kind of getting ordinary people of all political persuasions on board.

See banner from Wales/ south west section of XR saying system change below.

So I think on the ground XR is basically socialist.

He didn't disagree.

XR position has been that climate emergency goes beyond left right divide. So new kind of politics with people's assembly is required.

But for example its Labour party that have adopted Green new deal. Not the Tories.

 Nice guy. He was from Gloucester. Wasn't there yesterday but came today to help out.

One thing XR has done is to get ordinary people like this who are socially concerned active in a movement.

XR in practice is quite open organisation. Doesn't seem to browbeat followers to much to follow a party line.

Anyway that's my impression after a chat.

Photos of Marsham street at 6pm


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh, Gramsci, thank you for taking the time to take the photos and upload them here, am hugely appreciating your efforts.



Thanks.

Im trying to give picture of the average XR protestors not the leaders like Hallam.

Like last time I have a lot of respect for these XR protestors from what I've seen of them at ground level so to speak.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 8, 2019)

brilliant information Gramsci - thumbs up


----------



## A380 (Oct 8, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Right.
> 
> XR isn't really my cup of tea, it's different to anything I have been involved with before. I like my protests with a few cans of lager and the chance to have a punch up with the police, XR doesn't offer that. However the few times I have run in to XR stuff I have been shocked at how well received it is, by people who are not anarcho-crusties, not sleeping in hempy-bivouacs. They are just normal people, a bit of bias to white-middle class, but run-ins I have had with them have been in my area, which is a white-middle class area, so it will always be leaning that way.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure you can build a mass revolutionary movement based on a liking for violence. For every one punchy football risk, copper who loves the red mist and putting a bit of stick about, black block member with an unhealthy interest in Roman shield tactics, squady who wants to be off the leash or even urban poster who likes a few cans and a ruck with with the old bill there are 50 people who , when it’s real not practice think, ‘there is a real danger of me getting properly hurt or having to properly hurt someone else here, and a chance I might actually die’. Which isn’t to say any of those 50s won’t fight if they have too ( and will probably do a better job than the few that enjoy it) but you can’t build a movement on the promise of a decent pagga. Despite Hollywood or the old RWP it’s quite hard to get people to kill other people. 

For proper revolutions you almost always need people to fight and die. But that means people get maimed and killed. And I’m yet to be convinced that those western countries that had revolutions are significantly better places than those that didn’t  have bodies in the streets.

But that’s just me.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 8, 2019)

I see Boris Johnson doesn’t take XR seriously,  at a book launch event yesterday he referred to XR protestors as ‘uncooperative crusties’ who should abandon their ‘hemp smelling bivouacs’ and stop blocking the road.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 8, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I see Boris Johnson doesn’t take XR seriously,  at a book launch event yesterday he referred to XR protestors as ‘uncooperative crusties’ who should abandon their ‘hemp smelling bivouacs’ and stop blocking the road.



Do try and keep up with the thread.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 8, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> very interesting article about xr here http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/category/organizations/world-resources-institute/ in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.



I've watched Hallam on YouTube.

I find something deeply unpleasant about Hallam.

As much as he criticises , what he sees as the hard left, he himself isn't imo that tolerant of a diversity of opinion. I find his view on replacing government with "Peoples Assemblies" deeply undemocratic. And the use of the words Peoples Assemblies disingenuous.

I'm also concerned at the way XR people I chat to at different times use the same phrases.

Love the police , the police have a job to do etc etc. Stock phrases they have been instructed in. Or not questioning a rigid view of non violence.

Or that the climate emergency is beyond the left right divide. ( That I think is not working in the average XR person given my chat today at Marshan Street).

XR is quite top down in some ways. XR is quite well organised with new recruits getting the whole spiel from one of the more experienced activists who have taken aboard Hallam views as in the lecture he gives in the article.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 8, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I've watched Hallam on YouTube.
> 
> I find something deeply unpleasant about Hallam.
> 
> ...


This time there has been directives to refrain from talking to police,  saying "we love you police "  and from sharing in WhatsApp and Facebook.	 Also attempts to explain  why that shouldn't happen.  Perhaps the preemptive  arrests at the weekend focused peoples thinking?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> This time there has been directives to refrain from talking to police,  saying "we love you police "  and from sharing in WhatsApp and Facebook.	 Also attempts to explain  why that shouldn't happen.  Perhaps the preemptive  arrests at the weekend focused peoples thinking?



When I was chatting to the guy from Gloucester and told him I saw police get stuck into protestors on Westminster Bridge he looked genuinely shocked.

XR gave the police a chance first time around.

Police saw this as a weakness and used it to stop occupation of Westminster bridge. From their last experience of XR protestors they realised they wouldn't retaliate if they got heavy handed with them from the start. This worked.

So fair play to XR for giving police a chance to see climate change is an important issue first time around.

They aren't interested.

Its what Cressida Dick promised. More "assertive" policing. 

I do think non violence is a good strategy most of the time. But XR are up against people like Cressida Dick. Who isn't so interested in non violence.

I really loathe Cressida Dick.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 9, 2019)

Th


Gramsci said:


> When I was chatting to the guy from Gloucester and told him I saw police get stuck into protestors on Westminster Bridge he looked genuinely shocked.
> 
> XR gave the police a chance first time around.
> 
> ...



The most effective tactic to beat non violence is violence. That doesn't mean the state will always use that on a strategic level, or that it will be the first tactic of choice, but it's always a tool in the box.


----------



## albionism (Oct 9, 2019)

I think prancing around like this is going to
put a lot of people off joining them. It's embarrassing.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 9, 2019)

albionism said:


> I think prancing around like this is going to
> put a lot of people off joining them. It's embarrassing.




Definitely a rave atmosphere in that clip, looks like they’re having a good time [dancing] which is never a bad thing.  Far better than chaining yourself to a car.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 9, 2019)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Regardless of the support of well meaning liberal civil disobedience types I think that if this takes off, this has the potential to become much bigger and more threatening to the powers that be. Anyhow, opening up of more fronts of struggle is usually a positive sign. And it is a very striking symbol they are using, showing a good understanding of the power of symbols - note the number of psychologists in that list:
> 
> Extinction Symbol



XR certainly has taken off, but it appears that this is due to being very well funded from a variety of powerful donors.









heebyjeeby said:


> You think a bunch of Anarchists will bring the government to its knees by smashing up a MacDonalds?



Certainly not before they have ordered their lunch.


----------



## albionism (Oct 9, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Definitely a rave atmosphere in that clip, looks like they’re having a good time [dancing] which is never a bad thing.  Far better than chaining yourself to a car.


Rave and dancing, RTS style, i can handle, it would even attract more people,
 but whatever the fuck that is in the video, I wouldn't want to be near it at a demo.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2019)

It is inspiring and Gramsci ’s photos and reports are excellent.

Too many open goals for us armchair cynics though:


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 9, 2019)

green capitalism v brown capitalism


----------



## A380 (Oct 9, 2019)

albionism said:


> Rave and dancing, RTS style, i can handle, it would even attract more people,
> but whatever the fuck that is in the video, I wouldn't want to be near it at a demo.




You can’t make the young people of today think your youth culture is still cool...


----------



## newbie (Oct 9, 2019)

albionism said:


> Rave and dancing, RTS style, i can handle, it would even attract more people,
> but whatever the fuck that is in the video, I wouldn't want to be near it at a demo.


oh give over, someone has made a labyrinth and some young people are passing the time by playing around.  What on earth is the problem with that?  There's plenty of scope for more elderly, judgemental people like you to sit/stand and look and talk serious stuff about ozone levels, nanoparticles and glacial melt without telling off the kids for being a bit joyful in the pouring rain.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2019)

A380 said:


> You can’t make the young people of today think your youth culture is still cool...



Kids still go out to clubs, so getting a decent DJ on is a safe bet. But if I showed my daughter and her mates that video albionism posted they would cringe their internal organs into dust.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2019)

newbie said:


> oh give over, someone has made a labyrinth and some young people are passing the time by playing around.  What on earth is the problem with that?  There's plenty of scope for more elderly, judgemental people like you to sit/stand and look and talk serious stuff about ozone levels, nanoparticles and glacial melt without telling off the kids for being a bit joyful in the pouring rain.


'The kids' aren't doing anything at all there. 3 or 4 people, at least one well past being a kid, are doing some stuff.  I'm not at all sure the actual kids would appreciate being bundled in with that or them.


----------



## newbie (Oct 9, 2019)

alright
s/kids/participants/
happy now?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Kids still go out to clubs, so getting a decent DJ on is a safe bet. But if I showed my daughter and her mates that video albionism posted they would cringe their internal organs into dust.




and yet ...they are out there in the rain 
If more joined them the action would diversify.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2019)

newbie said:


> alright
> s/kids/participants/
> happy now?


The use of kids is clearly polemical rather than simply descriptive, it situates people in two groups. One young exciting and full of hope, the correct position. And one old beaten and wrong. These positions are then projected onto anything else they say in the debate. That's why it's not useful here.


----------



## newbie (Oct 9, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> The use of kids is clearly polemical rather than simply descriptive, it situates people in two groups. One young exciting and full of hope, the correct position. And one old beaten and wrong. These positions are then projected onto anything else they say in the debate. That's why it's not useful here.


if you say so.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2019)

Meanwhile over at Alton Barnes...


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Meanwhile over at Alton Barnes...
> 
> View attachment 186415


This time they've taken their horseplay too far


----------



## A380 (Oct 9, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> This time they've taken their horseplay too far


They should be reined in.

The movement should be saddled with this kind of activism.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So fair play to XR for giving police a chance to see climate change is an important issue first time around.
> 
> They aren't interested.


Former senior police officers risk arrest as they join Extinction Rebellion protest


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

A380 said:


> They should be reined in.
> 
> The movement should be saddled with this kind of activism.


They would doubtless bridle at any criticism.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 9, 2019)

A380 said:


> They should be reined in.
> 
> The movement should be saddled with this kind of activism.


Yup. They aught to be hoofed out of London for this sort of vandalism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> Yup. They aught to be hoofed out of London for this sort of vandalism.


not to mention wiltshire


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> not to mention wiltshire


I'm not planning on visiting Wilshire in a couple of weeks mate


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> I'm not planning on visiting Wilshire in a couple of weeks mate



Well you should, as well as the white horse Alton Barnes is the access point for Wansdyke and the Marden Henge is just round the corner too


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> They would doubtless bridle at any criticism.



As they receive mare and mare criticism they might change their ways?


----------



## andysays (Oct 9, 2019)

They'll all have long faces if they get arrested after shouting themselves hoarse...


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

They wouldn't want to get saddled with any fines?


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well you should, as well as the white horse Alton Barnes is the access point for Wansdyke and the Marden Henge is just round the corner too


I will and I have been many times. I just want these yoghurt weavers off the streets before my state visit to Londominium


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 9, 2019)

Let's not spur them on...


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

Not sure.. Some on here already want them hoofed out of the movement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Not sure.. Some on here already want them hoofed out of the movement.


yeh they'll have to change tack


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

i whinny go down that route myself


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh they'll have to change tack


Not sure this latest crop are capable of that. They'll probably move on to pastures new.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Not sure this latest crop are capable of that. They'll probably move on to pastures new.



If they do they'll not be gone furlong


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Not sure this latest crop are capable of that. They'll probably move on to pastures new.


More likely the knackers yard as I can't see many of them being put out for stud.


----------



## xenon (Oct 9, 2019)




----------



## andysays (Oct 9, 2019)

At least they haven't become dominated by trots


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

friedaweed said:


> More likely the knackers yard as I can't see many of them being put out for stud.



True enough, the whole XR thing is a bit un stable atm


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

Enough with all the equine puns. As Pickman's says:



Pickman's model said:


> if you think it's only an entertaining distration perhaps some other boards might be more to your liking.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

Its maybe time for Pickman's model to harness the help of some outside forces?


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

He's too blinkered to do that.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Enough with all the equine puns. As Pickman's says:


I say Neigh


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Enough with all the equine puns. As Pickman's says:


Are you trying to whip up antagonism?


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Are you trying to whip up antagonism?


Sorry, it was a palfrey attempt to mount an attack on Pickman's. It's no surprise that you bucked against it.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

Careful, Pickman's previously been known to throw a few cobs


----------



## fishfinger (Oct 9, 2019)

Isn't this just flogging a dead horse?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Sorry, it was a palfrey attempt to mount an attack on Pickman's. It's no surprise that you bucked against it.


if you don't want to do entertaining distractions any more perhaps you could outline the lots of reasons you refused to list yesterday


----------



## xenon (Oct 9, 2019)

Enough of this old pony, please.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

Maybe this dispute should be judged on a first past the post basis?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Maybe this dispute should be judged on a first past the post basis?


Idaho is on a mission to stirrup trouble


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 9, 2019)

All this jockeying for position! It can be very heavy going.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

lol


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 9, 2019)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2019)

Spoiler: For the record


----------



## andysays (Oct 9, 2019)

Clearly a Trojan horse...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 9, 2019)

> Police have kettled a giant octopus on Whitehall and are marching it back to Trafalgar Square.



Now that's a 'headline' I had never expected to read!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 9, 2019)

andysays said:


> Clearly a Trojan horse octopus...



c4y


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2019)

Hundreds of temperature records broken over summer



> Almost 400 all-time high temperatures were set in the northern hemisphere over the summer, according to an analysis of temperature records.
> 
> The records were broken in 29 countries for the period from 1 May to 30 August this year.


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

So, after being told repeatedly by Hallam etc. that the _only_ way to get social change is to get mass arrests, how are they going to adapt to something else? Are they even going to be able to given it'll be a complete about turn and admission they were wrong previously?


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if you don't want to do entertaining distractions any more perhaps you could outline the lots of reasons you refused to list yesterday


What was the question again? What was the list?


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> So, after being told repeatedly by Hallam etc. that the _only_ way to get social change is to get mass arrests, how are they going to adapt to something else? Are they even going to be able to given it'll be a complete about turn and admission they were wrong previously?


I would hope that in the far flung future, people could be wrong, acknowledge it and adapt. Stridently opinionated rightness is a failing of the British psyche.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> So, after being told repeatedly by Hallam etc. that the _only_ way to get social change is to get mass arrests, how are they going to adapt to something else? Are they even going to be able to given it'll be a complete about turn and admission they were wrong previously?


tbh i don't think they were necessarily wrong before: but they were wrong to believe that what worked once could be relied upon to work again. what's worked before (but not i think really been tried again) was what happened in the city on 18.6.99, when there were so many people spread over such a wide area and moving so quickly in many different directions that it was impossible to kettle and very difficult to break up. have as your metaphor smoke rather than water or dams. if xr had simply had loads of people wandering about in the roads in westminster, in the west end, they could have halted traffic and made it very difficult for the police to adequately respond. but by insisting again on camps which would last they showed a want of tactical nous.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> So, after being told repeatedly by Hallam etc. that the _only_ way to get social change is to get mass arrests...



Did Hallam repeatedly tell them that (granted, he certainly banged on a lot about non-violence)?
Also, it's quite possible that a lot of members of XR don't think he's the Messiah, and will be able to change strategy without a major mental breakdown.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I would hope that in the far flung future, people could be wrong, acknowledge it and adapt. Stridently opinionated rightness is a failing of the British psyche.


what was that you were saying about superiority upthread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> Did Hallam repeatedly tell them that (granted, he certainly banged on a lot about non-violence)?
> Also, it's quite possible that a lot of members of XR don't think he's the Messiah, and will be able to change strategy without a major mental breakdown.


let's hope they change tactics first, being as that's what's let them down


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if xr had simply had loads of people wandering about in the roads in westminster, in the west end, they could have halted traffic and made it very difficult for the police to adequately respond. but by insisting again on camps which would last they showed a want of tactical nous.



Yeah, I'd heard this "be like water thing", so I'd figured the 'Occupy' style of things was done with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.


and these reasons are...


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

Given climate stuff is only going to get worse, and that the movements and groups trying to stop/mitigate it will likely grow as well, I do think it's worth trying to engage and help things take better directions. Even if some of the stuff they're doing is hard to deal with. 

I think it's worth addressing what we mean by working or not with the action and tactical ideas isn't it? Like you referred to J18 Pickman's model but tbh I'd say that worked on some levels on the day, but didn't work on a wider political and strategic level maybe?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, I'd heard this "be like water thing", so I'd figured the 'Occupy' style of things was done with.


there's no reason why, with so many people, they can't offer something for everyone. some people like blocking things, so they can do that. other people like walking about, so they can do that, and other people like - well, let them just get on with it without telling everyone and spoiling the surprise.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

and their off


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and these reasons are...



The main one imo being that as soon as they deviate from that, then unless they have a massive amount of general goodwill and support behind them, the media will create the narratives necessary for huge pre-emptive retaliation by the police and military.


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and these reasons are...



TBH I'm not too bothered about the non-violence thing even though it sticks in my throat on the street. Of course it betrays a more liberal politics, but in and of itself I'm less interested in them adapting that to some form of more militant liberalism, and more interested in the other political stuff.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there's no reason why, with so many people, they can't offer something for everyone. some people like blocking things, so they can do that. other people like walking about, so they can do that, and other people like - well, let them just get on with it without telling everyone and spoiling the surprise.



Yeah, I agree some diversity (of both tactics and people), and chaotic unpredictability would be useful.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> and these reasons are...


- Maintaining the moral high ground
- broadening the appeal to otherwise non politically active people
- not letting the govt make it only a public order issue
- letting the police make the first violent move in a world full of shared videos and live streams

Will that do?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Given climate stuff is only going to get worse, and that the movements and groups trying to stop/mitigate it will likely grow as well, I do think it's worth trying to engage and help things take better directions. Even if some of the stuff they're doing is hard to deal with.
> 
> I think it's worth addressing what we mean by working or not with the action and tactical ideas isn't it? Like you referred to J18 Pickman's model but tbh I'd say that worked on some levels on the day, but didn't work on a wider political and strategic level maybe?


obvs j18 happened in a different political context, at the start of the era of summit-hopping. but there's lessons which can be taken from it in terms of presenting issues for public order policing. let's look at the things which have worked, things like mayday monopoly, things which accentuate the (few) advantages demonstrators have over the police. things like surprise, unpredictability and movement shouldn't be surrendered so readily, they've proven their worth over many years. blocking things? now and again it works, mostly it ends in tears.

but where j18 took 18 months to organise, xr have been putting this together in a few months. granted, they have more money and indeed more activists than there were back in the day. but they've also done it tactically cheap, without giving any real thought to countermeasures or mixing it up - what we used to call a diversity of tactics.


----------



## pesh (Oct 9, 2019)

i dunno, i still find some of their actions suitably chaotic, even Banksy hasn't got a fire engine full of paint.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> - Maintaining the moral high ground


shit


> - broadening the appeal to otherwise non politically active people


well they really haven't done that, with the yoga and so on, they'd have been better off having a riot than making it a protest for people from particular strata of society.


> - not letting the govt make it only a public order issue


tbh it matters not a jot what demonstrators do, and it matters very little what the government do, the media will spin it as they want, be that professional demonstrators or hypocritical demonstrators eating in mcd's or whatever they want to say. doing something because you think it will stop the government or even the media making it out to be x y or z is really really stupid. they'll say it anyway - for example, the way that it's having an impact on the police's ability to respond to emergencies elsewhere in london. if it's a good enough cause observers won't mind too much what the government say. i remember being in crouch end on 1.4.90 waiting for a phone box and talking to this black man in his 50s about the poll tax riot, and him saying how happy he was that young people still had it in them to fight the police. the poll tax riot/s didn't do the campaign the slightest bit of harm, even though politicians and the government spoke out most vehemently against them.


> - letting the police make the first violent move in a world full of shared videos and live streams


i can see where you're coming from here but it's still not a really good reason.



> will that do?


not really, no


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

pesh said:


> i dunno, i still find some of their actions suitably chaotic, even Banksy hasn't got a fire engine full of paint.


that was perhaps the best action of the last few days and even that showed some lack of practice using the equipment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> The main one imo being that as soon as they deviate from that, then unless they have a massive amount of general goodwill and support behind them, the media will create the narratives necessary for huge pre-emptive retaliation by the police and military.


when was the last time people throwing things at coppers in england (or scotland or wales) faced any sort of retaliation from the military?


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> obvs j18 happened in a different political context, at the start of the era of summit-hopping. but there's lessons which can be taken from it in terms of presenting issues for public order policing. let's look at the things which have worked, things like mayday monopoly, things which accentuate the (few) advantages demonstrators have over the police. things like surprise, unpredictability and movement shouldn't be surrendered so readily, they've proven their worth over many years. blocking things? now and again it works, mostly it ends in tears.
> 
> but where j18 took 18 months to organise, xr have been putting this together in a few months. granted, they have more money and indeed more activists than there were back in the day. but they've also done it tactically cheap, without giving any real thought to countermeasures or mixing it up - what we used to call a diversity of tactics.



What I'm getting at is what's the driving stratgey behind the thing irrespective of their tactics? Are we really looking at lobbying the State to sort climate change out as a sole strategy and causing disruption as the tool to push this, or are we thinking there's something else going on?


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> - Maintaining the moral high ground
> - broadening the appeal to otherwise non politically active people
> - not letting the govt make it only a public order issue
> - letting the police make the first violent move in a world full of shared videos and live streams
> ...



Having the moral high ground is shit politics, not anything to be encouraged.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What I'm getting at is what's the driving stratgey behind the thing irrespective of their tactics? Are we really looking at lobbying the State to sort climate change out as a sole strategy and causing disruption as the tool to push this, or are we thinking there's something else going on?


their _stated _aim, their strategic objective, is to obtain changes in government policy.

as far as i can see whatever effort there is to prevent apocalyptic levels of climate change has to be done under capitalism as there's no time to turn everything upside down and put it back together again before all the tipping points are tipped. maybe there's five years, maybe ten, maybe - if we're really lucky - thirty. but at least the first steps to change things have to happen immediately or almost immediately. so on that front i see why xr might want to be non-violent, so the government has no real reason to say we're not talking to them they're nasty (and Idaho that's a better reason than any you've adduced).

but there's only so much non-violence will do, and it always risks being seen as weakness rather than a deliberate choice so the protestors can open a dialogue with power. what's really needed is some batshit crazy people so xr can say to the government you can choose between dealing with us or you'll have to deal with them.

it may be there's something else going on, but as there's been no obvious organizational learning in xr since the last time round i would be surprised if there were.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> the non-violence thing even though it sticks in my throat on the street. Of course it betrays a more liberal politics


My suspicion is that you would have to do a lot of mental recalculation if non violence is effective.


LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Having the moral high ground is shit politics, not anything to be encouraged.


In the self interest mortality vacuum we have with Johnson and trump, it might resonate.


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

A re-writing of history or just pig fucking ignorance?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> A re-writing of history or just pig fucking ignorance?
> 
> View attachment 186432


a bit of both


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

So right now Trafalgar Square is bigger, or at least _denser_, than it was yesterday, but there's still a fair sized camp outside Westminster Abbey, a smaller one near the Treasury, and people are still on Whitehall though that's clearly the focus of the most cop attention rn.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 9, 2019)

Well that's a strange moment. I just passed Boris Johnson's dad in the street and he had an ER sticker on.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well that's a strange moment. I just passed Boris Johnson's dad in the street and he had an ER sticker on.



He addressed them earlier, and in support of them.

BJ's whole family is turning against him.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 9, 2019)

I've just thought of a few witty things I could have said. Too late.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

Cops have started clearing tents and stuff.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've just thought of a few witty things I could have said. Too late.



Just keep it in your head in case it happens again.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 9, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Cops have started clearing tents and stuff.




Where’s that?


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Where’s that?



South end of T Sq below Nelsons Column at the junction.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 9, 2019)

spitfire said:


> South end of T Sq below Nelsons Column at the junction.



Mass clearance imminent?


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Mass clearance imminent?



Not sure, I left a couple of hours ago, that's someone elses twitter.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Where’s that?



Here.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

Trafalgar Square is the "allowed" protesting spot under the Section 14. So yeah that didn't last long I guess.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Trafalgar Square is the "allowed" protesting spot under the Section 14. So yeah that didn't last long I guess.



You can't have a civil disobedience movement that goes where it is told, surely?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> You can't have a civil disobedience movement that goes where it is told, surely?


Well, they didn't, they kept on at the other sites until cleared and are still there, and they were right to do so. Cops have really jumped the gun clearing things this early though.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 9, 2019)

OK dokay. If they want to play it that way....


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well, they didn't, they kept on at the other sites until cleared and are still there, and they were right to do so. Cops have really jumped the gun clearing things this early though.



Yeah. Is just that the concept itself seemed odd.  Personally, I'd have wanted them anywhere BUT in the allowed zone.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

I went down for a mooch earlier and had a good look around, we went to T Sq, MOD, and then round the long way to Whitehall.

Hung around a bit for Barry Gardiner's speech, he was making all the right noises and explicitly ruled out a coalition with anyone if they form a minority govt. They expect to bring the independents along with them for votes on New Green Deal and all that stuff. This may or may not be news to people here but I'd not heard that before and am not sure how much salt to take it with, a pinch or a shovel.

Anyway that's not why I'm posting...

Saw the people protesting outside the MOD and was taken aback at their ages, one lady must have been 75-80 and was carried off by the cops. They were quite careful but they had to be as there was no resistance at all being shown. Lots of clapping and cheering (which we joined in with). I counted circa. 100 police of various levels, including a sprinkling of TSG, that's a lot of old bill for 10 protestors so shows how they can keep a lot of police busy for a long time with small numbers.

Went round to Whitehall where people were locked together, you could smell the angle grinders working. Police riot shields used to protect the protestors faces from the sparks and stuff. Which makes a change I guess....A decent crowd of people shouting encouragement, some confused tourists. It was kind of a half kettle, you couldn't get through the line of police from T Sq but we walked around via Embankment and could get through easily. I guess it stops the 2 spots from meeting up. Like a valve.

We went to give the arrested people a cheer and a clap and started chatting to a very nice, mc lady from Oxford. She'd never been on a protest before so I asked her if they were talking to the police at all. She said they'd been told not to chat to the police this time. We had a little chat and I passed on some of my learnings from my fairly limited protest career (in comparison to people on here), she was a little taken aback at some of it. Hadn't really heard of the CJA protests, didn't ask her if she knew about the road stuff. Anyway, I hope she's OK and they don't find out the hard way what the cops are capable of.

Must admit I found the interpretive dance element of it all thoroughly grating, but I wish them luck. For all our sakes. I'll look into local stuff possibly but they definitely need some wiser heads in there.

Sorry if this is a little light on serious political analysis. Just some observations.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

spitfire said:


> View attachment 186454



Just look at them.
With their_ books_.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2019)

Is that the same hearse that matey-boy's head was locked on to the steering wheel on Monday morning?


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is that the same hearse that matey-boy's head was locked on to the steering wheel on Monday morning?



I think so.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah. Is just that the concept itself seemed odd.  Personally, I'd have wanted them anywhere BUT in the allowed zone.


It's easier to control a bunch of people in one area than the same number spread out - partially logistically and in terms of being able to set boundaries (lots of small groups have a larger "surface area") but also police tactics are very much based on exerting control over space. I have a bit long TED talk about this but basically my theory is that it's always a battle over who defines what space is used for. So occupation is treated as much more significant than it might seem based on what it actually does.

Moving everyone to one space is thus considered a win, and has the practical effect that you can then close down that space more easily, as well as mop up stragglers in other areas without so many personnel. (They don't actually have that many cops there - there are lots but there are only so many. They can't do a concerted attack on more than one site at a time.)


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's easier to control a bunch of people in one area than the same number spread out - partially logistically and in terms of being able to set boundaries (lots of small groups have a larger "surface area") but also police tactics are very much based on exerting control over space. I have a bit long TED talk about this but basically it's a battle over who defines what space is used for. So occupation is treated as much more significant than it might seem based on what it actually does.
> 
> Moving everyone to one space is thus considered a win, and has the practical effect that you can then close down that space more easily, as well as mop up stragglers in other areas without so many personnel. (They don't actually have that many cops there - there are lots but there are only so many. They can't do a concerted attack on more than one site at a time.)



I think we may be talking at cross-purposes - I meant it seemed odd that XR even countenanced going to a place where they would cause minimum disruption, at the behest of the police.  I'd have taken it as a pretty clear statement of the police saying "your action is of minimal value if performed here, and you will make it easier for us to manage you".

Which I'd expect any half-competent protester to interpret as "be anywhere but here" iyswim.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> I think we may be talking at cross-purposes - I meant it seemed odd that XR even countenanced going to a place where they would cause minimum disruption, at the behest of the police.  I'd have taken it as a pretty clear statement of the police saying "your action is of minimal value if performed here, and you will make it easier for us to manage you".
> 
> Which I'd expect any half-competent protester to interpret as "be anywhere but here" iyswim.


Well, they haven't moved in general; this was what happened the last time and it didn't really work then either. TS is larger but people at other sites haven't budged. I thought whitehall would have been cleared but it hasn't been.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 9, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Sorry if this is a little light on serious political analysis. Just some observations.



Brilliant stuff spitfire.   a picture can be worth a thousand words, as they say.  Thankyou.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Brilliant stuff spitfire.   a picture can be worth a thousand words, as they say.  Thankyou.



No worries, thank you for the kind words.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

spitfire said:


> ...



Do you know what the people with the weird red dresses and white faces* are meant to signify, spitfire ?

* - not that this is unusual in XR...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> Do you know what the people with the weird red dresses and white faces* are meant to signify, spitfire ?
> 
> * - not that this is unusual in XR...



statues, call themselves Red Brigade

the red is blood

They are performance artists types, from Bristol I think, who have been doing the walking statues thing since long before XR existed.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> statues, call themselves Red Brigade
> 
> the red is blood
> 
> They are performance artists types, from Bristol I think, who have been doing the walking statues thing since long before XR existed.



 Cheers.  So would they be completely motionless when these pics are taken (I’d figured they were marching in a lot of them)?


----------



## vanya (Oct 9, 2019)

In defence of Extinction Rebellion


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

vanya said:


> In defence of Extinction Rebellion




Fuck him and his shit videos.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fuck him and his shit videos.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> statues, call themselves Red Brigade
> 
> the red is blood
> 
> They are performance artists types, from Bristol I think, who have been doing the walking statues thing since long before XR existed.


There are lots of them - I've seen several different processions around at once. They still manage to be really quite creepy even though I've seen them many times.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> Cheers.  So would they be completely motionless when these pics are taken (I’d figured they were marching in a lot of them)?



they walk with their hands out, so moving statues I guess. They’ve been doing it since the 90’s apparently.

and yeah, there’s now loads of copies, have been seen in Sydney and other places this week. Fairly striking, but a bit odd all the same.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fuck him and his shit videos.


Have to say that I was waiting for the cynical Spiked shit but actually that video isn't that at all and if anything the reverse. Yeah I was quite stunned too.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Have to say that I was waiting for the cynical Spiked shit but actually that video isn't that at all and if anything the reverse. Yeah I was quite stunned too.



Yes,  massive gulf between him and Spiked on this one.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 9, 2019)

Jonathan Pie should be hanged though


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Have to say that I was waiting for the cynical Spiked shit but actually that video isn't that at all and if anything the reverse. Yeah I was quite stunned too.



Being generally pro-thinking never goes over well with the purer than pure.

Edit: tbf I think he’s wrong about the eco-friendly dishwasher tablets thing


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> Being generally pro-thinking never goes over well with the purer than pure.


Spiked aren't pro thinking, they are tremendously formulaic. And Pie is a shit facebook comedian half written by a spiked true believer


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Spiked aren't pro thinking, they are tremendously formulaic.



Yeah, they are a weird culty lot. I think half of the time they believe their own shite.  The guy who actually does Pie seems pretty on the level from interviews I’ve seen, though.

I will revise my opinions if I see Spiked saying similar things in support of XR.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Spiked aren't pro thinking, they are tremendously formulaic. And Pie is a shit facebook comedian half written by a spiked true believer


which is why that video is really pretty surprising - I wonder what's going on there


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> which is why that video is really pretty surprising - I wonder what's going on there


The half that is a failed comedian with bog standard liberal politics but saw an opportunity won out over the spiked dickhead I'd imagine


----------



## 8ball (Oct 9, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> The half that is a failed comedian with bog standard liberal politics but saw an opportunity won out over the spiked dickhead I'd imagine



Failed actor, technically.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 9, 2019)

New XR legal guide is out, finally offers some straightforward useful advice with no clangers (so I'm told by an ACAB legal bod) .

Extinction Rebellion police and prison guide - Extinction Rebellion


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> New XR legal guide is out, finally offers some straightforward useful advice with no clangers (so I'm told by an ACAB legal bod) .
> 
> Extinction Rebellion police and prison guide - Extinction Rebellion



Also in positive news:


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Former senior police officers risk arrest as they join Extinction Rebellion protest



I know but they are all retired.

I think XR strategy of using non violence is most of the time a good one. Getting involved with fights with police and they will just close demo down straight away.

But as I said the police , that is Cressida Dick, have learnt that XR response to police is to sit down and be arrested.

Cressida Dick did say policing next time would be more "assertive".

To be frank I've not got a lot of time for people who spent their lives working in fairly oppressive state institutions turning into wet liberals when they retire.

Cressida Dick as head of Met has limited resources. She made the decision to hit XR hard this time. Pre emptive arrests and confiscating of equipment at Kennington showed Met intelligence gathering has been good.

No wonder Miss-Shelf reported that XR members had been told not to talk to police.

As a Londoner I loathe Cressida Dick. Privileged brat who was fast tracked into promotion in the Met who then had a Brazilian shot in Stockwell. Didn't harm her career. And she ticks all the right diversity boxes so that's ok.

Its people like Cressida Dick I can't stand. She has made sure XR haven't been able to fulfill their aims in London.

I live in majority Black area in London and they have very mixed feelings about the police to say the least. With good reason.

So summing up what I've seen of XR over the past few days I think they have done a great job despite the Met . Whose officers get paid much better than a lot of Londoners I know to drag peaceful "hemp" protestors off to the cells.

I've nothing but contempt for the Met.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also in positive news:
> 
> View attachment 186472


This is encouraging. This has been playing on my mind:





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> XR believe that the end of life on Earth as we know it is imminent. Therefore getting better conditions for X,Y or Z is immaterial.



Which I think is a fairly common attitude in this milieu (maybe I'm wrong) so seeing that banner is heartening


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also in positive news:
> 
> View attachment 186472



Is this your own photo?

I like the banner but I've not seen this. Bit of change of tack from XR.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Is this your own photo?
> 
> I like the banner but I've not seen this. Bit of change of tack from XR.



Exactly. Not mine. From twitter - will find the post.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Exactly. Not mine. From twitter - will find the post.



Ok. I'm not criticising you but I'm wary of internet. Photoshop etc. 

All the pictures I've posted up here are my own.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2019)

For the record and hopefully the start of something rather than an outlier -


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Ok. I'm not criticising you but I'm wary of internet. Photoshop etc.
> 
> All the pictures I've posted up here are my own.



Yes we are on the same page, no worries. I did wonder if it was fake after I posted it so went off to check!


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

Sorry posters. I've been working outside London today so no photos. 

Plus as XR guy told me as they didn't get a bridge they are doing more "mobile" protests. So its hit or miss it I see them.

I will go up to Trafalgar Square tomorrow morning to see how its going.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

double post.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

double post.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 9, 2019)

vanya said:


> In defence of Extinction Rebellion




Is this what passes for woke satire these days?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 9, 2019)




----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There are lots of them - I've seen several different processions around at once. They still manage to be really quite creepy even though I've seen them many times.
> 
> View attachment 186466 View attachment 186467 View attachment 186468



They totally creep me out tbh. Nobody that likes doing that should be allowed near kids for a start.


----------



## LDC (Oct 9, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Also in positive news:
> 
> View attachment 186472



I think it's from the XR Scotland lot. I saw it and was surprised and pleased. It was in no way a position that saw any other expression though from what I saw.

The re-wilding bit of the event was good as well, striking visually and a good indicator of something different.

I'll try and write some more thoughts on what I saw soon.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

I was over at Heathrow today. Saw a lot of police vans from other parts of the country parked up near the airport. Must be there just in case XR try anything.


----------



## albionism (Oct 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There are lots of them - I've seen several different processions around at once. They still manage to be really quite creepy even though I've seen them many times.
> 
> View attachment 186466 View attachment 186467 View attachment 186468


The XR Red Rebel Brigade..They appear in Sydney too.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 9, 2019)

I just got back from having another look.  Several sites were being cleared at once, loads of cops, much more like what I expected to see on Monday night.  It wasn't taking long either, I think it's all gone now except for a few tents in St James Park, with a few hundred people in Whitehall and Trafalgar Square which is rammed with tents with roads still blocked at the bottom of the square.  There were a few huddles here and there round Parliament Square but they were pretty much surrounded.  Maybe they'll manage to retake some space overnight but I can't help thinking this tactic has run it's course.  The old bill weren't really going in hard, its just a question of them getting the numbers in place and whatever kit they need and mopping it up at their own pace.  Bit of a pain in the arse for them I suppose, but not a threat, more just quite laborious.  I think if XR could dial down the passivity just a little bit, getting in copper's ways (non violently by all means if they want) when they haul someone off rather than parting the crowd and clapping them through, then they could have held onto the sites a lot lot longer.

But there's no anger there.  The younger folk in Trafalgar Square looked like they were having a great time, and fair play to them, it's desperately in need of a bar, and all felt a bit Christian rock band at times, but it had a party feel to it.  The older lot though seem charactised by despair and angst.  There's a semi religious element to a lot of it, not in the hippy acid tinged Earth Mother way of the past, but more like this is an act of penance in the hope of redemption for the lifestyles they lead.  It's a movement that is as anatagonistic to itself as it is the police, capital and the state.  The middle classes falling on their swords, or rather being minorly inconvenienced by the threat of low level criminal sanctions.  And ultimately calling on the state to save them from themselves.  Which the state won;t do obviously.  There desperately needs to be a joining up of the very real suffering people are facing now, and the reasons for climate change.  That banner is a refreshing start, because without some genuine anger, and a desire to force change not ask for it, then I don't really see much progress being made.  Which is not to undermine everything XR have achieved, the conversation is happening, but without the emergence of real anger and real antagonism, then I suspect its diminishing returns from here on.  The problem is when the movement is so stuffed to the gills with toffs they're cheering Boris Johnson's fucking dad and wearing t shirts boasting of being CEOs not crusties then it's going to be very difficult to get the guns pointing in the right direction.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

I must say the "Red Brigade" I've seen but can't really get the point of them. They mean well but aren't representative of all of XR.

Who are a mixed bunch. 

Thing is making an exhibition of oneself gets media attention. 

I think its a pity that XR didn't get one of the bridges as I think they put a lot of planning into that. Would have been a good showcase for XR.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2019)

Agree with a lot of what smokedout has posted.

I'm trying to remember the first XR rebellion and now. This time the police are much more heavy handed.

I remember the first XR occupation and the police took ages to talk to an XR then almost reluctantly pick them up and take them off to police van.

This time around I have seen police drop the niceties and just get on with arresting or chucking protestors out the way.

It comes across as the police have lost their patience.

I also feel in London there is not so much sympathy for the protestors as first time around.

Ive heard people say they have made their point so can they stop blocking the roads.

First time I felt it was different public reaction.

Also not having a bridge has made a difference.

I remember Oxford Street and Waterloo. People liked it because it was fun. They could go their after work or lunchtimes.

Fun is important it helped to get the message across.

This time with the police cracking down on protestors its become more like a hard fought protest.

I'm not criticisng XR here. Its that this time its different. Repeating the success of the first protest was a tall order.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 9, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Agree with a lot of what smokedout has posted.
> 
> I'm trying to remember the first XR rebellion and now. This time the police are much more heavy handed.
> 
> ...



Yeah when I said not going in that hard I meant not suited up and cracking skulls. I'd say their mood was a kind of determined impatience, they weren't going to give any ground but they weren't fired up and looking to hurt people either. Wouldn't be surprised to see that side of tem if the city airport action goes off tomorrow though.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2019)

8ball said:


> Do you know what the people with the weird red dresses and white faces* are meant to signify, spitfire ?
> 
> * - not that this is unusual in XR...



Sorry, was at the pub then pictures so didn't see it till too late and also wasn't sure. Glad to see the answers came in because I was wondering as well.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

smokedout said:


> Yeah when I said not going in that hard I meant not suited up and cracking skulls. I'd say their mood was a kind of determined impatience, they weren't going to give any ground but they weren't fired up and looking to hurt people either. Wouldn't be surprised to see that side of tem if the city airport action goes off tomorrow though.



Yeah that's what I saw at MOD and Whitehall today, very business like, methodical and one at a time.

They know they can just pick them up and carry them off one by one without any hassle from onlookers so no big rush. Overtimetastic.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

Might jump on the bike and go to this tomorrow.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think it's from the XR Scotland lot. I saw it and was surprised and pleased. It was in no way a position that saw any other expression though from what I saw.
> 
> The re-wilding bit of the event was good as well, striking visually and a good indicator of something different.
> 
> I'll try and write some more thoughts on what I saw soon.


XR Scotland have been much more vocal about positioning the climate crisis in a larger perspective and stressing justice and solidarity


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I just got back from having another look.  Several sites were being cleared at once, loads of cops, much more like what I expected to see on Monday night.  It wasn't taking long either, I think it's all gone now except for a few tents in St James Park, with a few hundred people in Whitehall and Trafalgar Square which is rammed with tents with roads still blocked at the bottom of the square.  There were a few huddles here and there round Parliament Square but they were pretty much surrounded.  Maybe they'll manage to retake some space overnight but I can't help thinking this tactic has run it's course.  The old bill weren't really going in hard, its just a question of them getting the numbers in place and whatever kit they need and mopping it up at their own pace.  Bit of a pain in the arse for them I suppose, but not a threat, more just quite laborious.  I think if XR could dial down the passivity just a little bit, getting in copper's ways (non violently by all means if they want) when they haul someone off rather than parting the crowd and clapping them through, then they could have held onto the sites a lot lot longer.
> 
> But there's no anger there.  The younger folk in Trafalgar Square looked like they were having a great time, and fair play to them, it's desperately in need of a bar, and all felt a bit Christian rock band at times, but it had a party feel to it.  The older lot though seem charactised by despair and angst.  There's a semi religious element to a lot of it, not in the hippy acid tinged Earth Mother way of the past, but more like this is an act of penance in the hope of redemption for the lifestyles they lead.  It's a movement that is as anatagonistic to itself as it is the police, capital and the state.  The middle classes falling on their swords, or rather being minorly inconvenienced by the threat of low level criminal sanctions.  And ultimately calling on the state to save them from themselves.  Which the state won;t do obviously.  There desperately needs to be a joining up of the very real suffering people are facing now, and the reasons for climate change.  That banner is a refreshing start, because without some genuine anger, and a desire to force change not ask for it, then I don't really see much progress being made.  Which is not to undermine everything XR have achieved, the conversation is happening, but without the emergence of real anger and real antagonism, then I suspect its diminishing returns from here on.  The problem is when the movement is so stuffed to the gills with toffs they're cheering Boris Johnson's fucking dad and wearing t shirts boasting of being CEOs not crusties then it's going to be very difficult to get the guns pointing in the right direction.



Good write up, and you've said a few things that I was thinking on, specifically the lack of anger which is really quite strange to see, especially when, as you say, it's been replaced with a very odd slightly religious grief. I also agree I think this phase of the struggle is over, the thing now will be do they just keep repeating it with ever diminishing returns, or can they adapt and find new avenues of attack?


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

And how the actual fuck can Johnson's dad talk there and get cheered rather than bottled off stage?

I do want to have more hope and optimism for XR, but I do feel like they have a reasonable amount of potential to be actually more of a political problem than benefit, and quite a lot of what I heard and saw there didn't make me feel that this would be a huge leap.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

Yep.

XR need to escalate and adapt now.

Crucial moment for them imo.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

I think there's a number of possible paths they can take based on where they are now and the history of those that went before:

(In rough order of likelihood)


Repeat and fade (like Stop the War, summit hopping and so many others before them)
Specialise in high profile, professional activism  with broad, but passive, support (like Greenpeace)
Become a permanent fixture of moralist minority activism (like CND or Animal rights)
Become a rooted, normative movement of defiance in local communities (like the Poll Tax)
Go "underground" and concentrate on stuff like the airport drones (like the ALF/ELF etc.)

Obviously I think option 4 is the way to go, but I just don't think they have the social base to do that


----------



## emanymton (Oct 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think there's a number of possible paths they can take based on where they are now and the history of those that went before:
> 
> (In rough order of likelihood)
> 
> ...


I would say 3 is the most likely. But what do I know really.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think there's a number of possible paths they can take based on where they are now and the history of those that went before:
> 
> (In rough order of likelihood)
> 
> ...



I guess a variation of (2) would be some move into parliamentary politics, standing candidates on their demands.

I expect we're of the same opinion politically chilango about the most politically useful bases for struggle being work and neighborhood 90% of the time, but one of the problems with this (4) is the problem we all face which is the nature of where and how we live today, the fragmentation of communities and transient nature of where many of us live - and that's a fucking hard one to overcome.

Anyway, given how bonkers and unpredictable the world feels at the moment, they'll probably end up as option (16) An army of genetically engineered monkeys flying drones delivering non-violent hand grenades to MPs or something.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I expect we're of the same opinion politically chilango about the most politically useful bases for struggle being work and neighborhood 90% of the time, but one of the problems with this (4) is the problem we all face which is the nature of where and how we live today, the fragmentation of communities and transient nature of where many of us live - and that's a fucking hard one to overcome.



Yep.

...and "better" movements than XR have fallen at this hurdle.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yep.
> 
> ...and "better" movements than XR have fallen at this hurdle.



One of the 'advantages' that XR and climate stuff has though is there's no 'end point' for activity on climate change as there is for most campaigns and issues when a project gets built or a law gets passed etc etc.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> One of the 'advantages' that XR and climate stuff has though is there's no 'end point' for activity on climate change as there is for most campaigns and issues when a project gets built or a law gets passed etc etc.



I actually think that's a disadvantage though.

One of the strengths of the first period of '90s activism was concrete, achievable goals. Even when losing having specific target  - both in terms of stopping a particular project and in terms of companies and individuals as the "enemy" - provided focus and momentum for tactics/strategy and activists.

Once we broadened out to "capitalism" it was much harder to be sustainable... and we were doing that from a position of relative strength.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> I actually think that's a disadvantage though.



Maybe we're both a bit right!?


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Maybe we're both a bit right!?



Probably. Though there is a chance I'm just wrong  It wouldn't be the first time.....


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> Once we broadened out to "capitalism" it was much harder to be sustainable... and we were doing that from a position of relative strength.



That was partly due to a mismatch in terms of capitalism and our methods of attack though right? Fueled partly by a not great understanding of what capitalism is?

As for concrete goals, they have de-carbonize by 2025. Given the right discussions it isn't a big leap to a position for this to be unobtainable under capitalism, so let's get rid of capitalism? Restructure society along the lines of production for need with ecological and carbon considerations at the forefront of this restructuring? People's (fuck all that citizen shit) assemblies based in workplaces and neighborhoods to work this transition out? And direct action to start doing it now?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Within XR there’s a lot of talk about our systems currently being based around a necessity for endless economic growth (which is all that capitalism has when the rich are out for a bigger and bigger take).

Imo it’s a bit like the ‘non-violence’ thing in that more meaningful discussions are going on in the background than their PR would imply.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That was partly due to a mismatch in terms of capitalism and our methods of attack though right? Fueled partly by a not great understanding of what capitalism is?
> 
> As for concrete goals, they have de-carbonize by 2025. Given the right discussions it isn't a big leap to a position for this to be unobtainable under capitalism, so let's get rid of capitalism? Restructure society along the lines of production for need with ecological and carbon considerations at the forefront of this restructuring? People's assemblies based in workplaces and neighborhoods to work this transition out?



That's the tricky balance isn't it?

Goals that are perceived as obtainable, and those that are not. Given that _"it is easier to imagine an end to the world than an end to capitalism" _that is a big leap to make in everyday life.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

Yeah, I wouldn't look forward to the blank faces at work when I try and get a meeting together to de-carbonize our workplace...


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> assemblies based in workplaces and neighborhoods


really, in 2019 you want to root in geographic communities?  You've even spelt in American as you argue the point on social media.  This is a rebellion that happening simultaneously in cities and towns all over the  world.  Geographic community isn't the future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> One of the 'advantages' that XR and climate stuff has though is there's no 'end point' for activity on climate change as there is for most campaigns and issues when a project gets built or a law gets passed etc etc.


but that's equally a disadvantage. something like the poll tax, you're dealing with a human issue which will change sooner or later. with climate change you're dealing with something that even if 90% of co2 or ch4 was removed from the atmosphere before lunchtime you're still going to see some very nasty effects for years to come. with the poll tax you can duck in and duck out of the movement. with climate change it's coming to get you whether you are carbon positive, carbon negative or carbon neutral. i wonder what effect this will have on activists' mental health and rates of burnout


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

newbie said:


> Geographic community isn't the future.


it is and it isn't. everything is connected, but things which are closer together are more closely connected. when london floods will you be relying on people in manitoba or malaysia or people in london to help you? if you can only network with people on the other side of the world and have no interaction with people in this country what is your activism worth?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

What's happening on the streets comrades?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What's happening on the streets comrades?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

newbie said:


> really, in 2019 you want to root in geographic communities?  You've even spelt in American as you argue the point on social media.  This is a rebellion that happening simultaneously in cities and towns all over the  world.  Geographic community isn't the future.



Yes, not exclusively, but largely. What do you suggest as an alternative, root it all in the ether? Geographic community is very much the future, people are increasingly living in large densely populated urban areas and working in similar the world over.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

sometimes the naiveity of xr is astonishing

i can't think a tweet like that would do anything other than rile cops


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it is and it isn't. everything is connected, but things which are closer together are more closely connected. when london floods will you be relying on people in manitoba or malaysia or people in london to help you? if you can only network with people on the other side of the world and have no interaction with people in this country what is your activism worth?



Also a lot of the technology and organisational structures involved with mitigating climate change seem to be quite decentralised, compared with the Industrial-Revolution-influnenced ideas from the past.

I think the networks required will need to take pages equally from the books of locality and globalism*.

*- in the original sense, not the “mobilised capitalism” sense


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> sometimes the naiveity of xr is astonishing
> View attachment 186511
> i can't think a tweet like that would do anything other than rile cops



It’s not really for the cops, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> Also a lot of the technology and organisational structures involved with mitigating climate change seem to be quite decentralised, compared with the Industrial-Revolution-influnenced ideas from the past.
> 
> I think the networks required will need to take pages equally from the books of locality and globalism*.
> 
> *- in the original sense, not the “mobilised capitalism” sense


but also there's millions of people in this country who've never used the internet. insisting on using computers immediately means ignoring a vast swathe of people, writing them off.


----------



## chilango (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What's happening on the streets comrades?



Nothing round here right now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> It’s not really for the cops, though.


yeh well it's still not going to do anything other than rile the cops.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 10, 2019)

emanymton said:


> I would say 3 is the most likely. But what do I know really.



well they've already shown themselves to be very good at fundraising so 2 or 3 seems like an easy path.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but also there's millions of people in this country who've never used the internet. insisting on using computers immediately means ignoring a vast swathe of people, writing them off.



Could talk about that, but I was thinking of things like micro-generation of electricity and the adaptive systems used to balance supply.


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it is and it isn't. everything is connected, but things which are closer together are more closely connected. when london floods will you be relying on people in manitoba or malaysia or people in london to help you? if you can only network with people on the other side of the world and have no interaction with people in this country what is your activism worth?


the first part is fair enough, your edit not so much because 'only' and 'no' are too stark.

 The geographic 'community', the loss of which is being lamented, has been replaced by a tapestry of overlaid communities, some of which have geographic components (else how would those who came together from somewhere in Wales or from Totnes have coalesced?), but most of which is based on a shared outlook expressed through sm.

fwiw I think much the same is true about 'workplaces' in the old sense of the term. While Greta whatsit and her cohort of children are joined by boomer pensioners as central players in these climate protests, and an increasing proportion of the workforce have precarious, zero hours and unrooted work, the old factory gate model has ever smaller significance.


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yes, not exclusively, but largely. What do you suggest as an alternative, root it all in the ether? Geographic community is very much the future, people are increasingly living in large densely populated urban areas and working in similar the world over.


It's not what I suggest, it's what's happening. 

I live in a large densely populated urban area and have done for years and I'd say I'm pretty rooted in my little local geographic cohort, which doesn't include anyone who lives in this street or the next,  and I'm completely unaware of what the vast majority of what my neighbours see as community. How about you, could you say there is one community that bonds people together?

We all have the same council, so there's some sort-of pavement politics cohesion (but only some, one lot want to gentrify as fast as possible- see house prices- and some of us don't) but it's nothing like how I grew up in a geographic community where every household had the same landlord, worked for the same employer, bought from the same local shop.... had necessarily shared material interests.  That's history and can't be wished back into existence with some sort of conscious community activism (like the grentrifiers round here try to do).

fact is, in some bizarre way, I feel closer to you lot than to anyone who lives immediately close to me, even the ones I've know for 30-odd years, because I have some inkling about what posters are into, what motivates, what matters.  And I'd hardly say I'm particularly bonded here (u75) in the way some people are.


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> sometimes the naiveity of xr is astonishing
> View attachment 186511
> i can't think a tweet like that would do anything other than rile cops


It might make some of them chuckle a little as well, TBF


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 10, 2019)

Sort of linked and didn't think it warranted is own post necessarily, I think it's interesting that big oil is seriously accelerating production rn. I have a hunch they may  be reckoning the petrol party's nearly over and want to max profits while they can.

Oil firms to pour extra 7m barrels per day into markets, data shows


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> sometimes the naiveity of xr is astonishing
> View attachment 186511
> i can't think a tweet like that would do anything other than rile cops



Kind of implies that all those to whom the police have historically been violent and disrespectful had it coming for not asking nicely enough to be treated like humans.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> It’s not really for the cops, though.



Who's it for then? The general public, to let them know that these are nice respectable folk and not at all like the grubby, antisocial protestors they may have encountered before? Potential XR recuits stupid enough to believe that any amount of asking nicely will prevent the police from putting the boot in if they're having one of those days when they feel like it?


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

Just seen this on the twitter. The mask is slipping.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Just seen this on the twitter. The mask is slipping.



Well that will undermine the NVDA approach.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Just seen this on the twitter. The mask is slipping.



the trick is, in circumstances like this where arrest is certain and resistance futile, to hold your hands in front of you while standing and gracefully surrender although use of the phrase 'it's a fair cop' is optional. chances are you'll be handcuffed behind your back but you never know, now and again you may be lucky enough to be handcuffed in front.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well that will undermine the NVDA approach.


i don't know, i don't know how many of the xr out on the streets will make the mental adjustment from a) cops not our friends to b) cops are our enemies, and from i) i must be non-violent to ii) i must resist as best i can


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know, i don't know how many of the xr out on the streets will make the mental adjustment from a) cops not our friends to b) cops are our enemies, and from i) i must be non-violent to ii) i must resist as best i can


I think people are less likely to chant "we love the police" when the po po are twisting women's ears.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I think people are less likely to chant "we love the police" when they are twisting women's ears.


i can imagine that chorus coming from a choir of mail or telegraph readers


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i can imagine that chorus coming from a choir of mail or telegraph readers


Just before they are all shot?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Just before they are all shot?


----------



## Patteran (Oct 10, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Just seen this on the twitter. The mask is slipping.




Comments under that are very ugly - cop & pro-cop responses.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Who's it for then? The general public, to let them know that these are nice respectable folk and not at all like the grubby, antisocial protestors they may have encountered before? Potential XR recuits stupid enough to believe that any amount of asking nicely will prevent the police from putting the boot in if they're having one of those days when they feel like it?



You thought it actually was for the cops?


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Comments under that are very ugly - cop & pro-cop responses.



Yeah, not pleasant.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

chilango said:


> I think there's a number of possible paths they can take based on where they are now and the history of those that went before:
> 
> (In rough order of likelihood)
> 
> ...



I think the Smithfield market lot were a determined effort to push things in the direction of option3, but hopefully things won't go that way.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Well that will undermine the NVDA approach.



The plan is to provoke violence from the protesters.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

newbie said:


> It's not what I suggest, it's what's happening.
> 
> I live in a large densely populated urban area and have done for years and I'd say I'm pretty rooted in my little local geographic cohort, which doesn't include anyone who lives in this street or the next,  and I'm completely unaware of what the vast majority of what my neighbours see as community. How about you, could you say there is one community that bonds people together?
> 
> ...



I suspect you live a pretty mobile and digitally connected life in a western city, unlike many in the world. Anyway, you might feel more connected to people on U75, but they're largely not the people you are able to organize with politically are they? And if they were then as a result of the conditions of connection and fragmented geography it would remain a slightly alienated activity, distant from your everyday life and limited in scope.

(XR are largely organizing geographically btw, they're just coordinating it globally.)

Of course like you say there's a lack of cohesion and understanding that we share the same material interests (that's a result of the victory of capital) and to some extent the political struggle is _exactly_ about recapturing that understanding together, of course with the current conditions of people's lives and ways of living as a background. And of course it doesn't mean we don't communicate globally and across physical communities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> The plan is to provoke violence from the protesters.


tbh they might end up with a different lot of protesters.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh they might end up with a different lot of protesters.



Might not take too many more pics like this, and when coppers start getting thumped they may get little more than a shrug in response.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> Might not take too many more pics like this, and when coppers start getting thumped they may get little more than a shrug in response.


the issue though is that the police aren't the objective and however enticing or exciting it may be to give the police what bernie grant would call a bloody good hiding, it is a distraction from the main point.

the police are in most situations an obstacle to be gone around (or over or under) more than a wall to be gone through. this is why staying static is such a stupid idea, because all initiative is handed to the police.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the issue though is that the police aren't the objective and however enticing or exciting it may be to give the police what bernie grant would call a bloody good hiding, it is a distraction from the main point.



We all need our little distractions now and then.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 10, 2019)

This is Caroline Lucas on the left, no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> We all need our little distractions now and then.


after all, who needs an excuse for a ruck with the auld bill? but it should always be under conditions of the protesters' choosing, rather than on a field of the police's choice.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> This is Caroline Lucas on the left, no?
> 
> View attachment 186522


yes


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> after all, who needs an excuse for a ruck with the auld bill? but it should always be under conditions of the protesters' choosing, rather than on a field of the police's choice.



Oh, sure. Saving it for the right time and place is a must.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh they might end up with a different lot of protesters.


It's a dangerous move for the police to make. Shows their lack of moral compass.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

The peace movement managed to maintain non-violence in the face of years of police attacks and brutality, so I think the non-violence thing isn't likely to collapse that quickly for some.

Throwing any anarcho street cred I might have out of the window I do think it's actually interesting and maybe more useful to have a political position that isn't fixated on the police and their responses to people on the ground. Seeing the police in moral terms (either good if you're a hippie or bad if you're a militant anarchist) is less useful than seeing them as fulfilling a particular role in society irrespective of their individual and collective actions.


----------



## maomao (Oct 10, 2019)

A lot more traffic disruption today than Mon - Wed. Something's happening on Blackfriars bridge. With any luck they'll take it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The peace movement managed to maintain non-violence in the face of years of police attacks and brutality, so I think the non-violence thing isn't likely to collapse that quickly for some.
> 
> Throwing any street cred I might have out of the window I do think it's actually interesting and maybe more useful to have a political position that isn't fixated on the police and their responses to people on the ground. Seeing the police in moral terms (either good if you're a pacifist or bad if you're a militant anarchist) is less useful than seeing them as fulfilling a particular role in society irrespective of their individual and collective actions.


i think you're far from on the ball if you think pacifists see the cops as good. their use of violence, for example, would put them beyond the pale for many exponents of pacifism. what i think you mean is fluffies, who are a different crowd of people entirely to your principled pacifist. your fluffy will stop you defending yourself or others against cops, they will grass you up to the cops, they will defend the cops.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Couple of badge numbers visible in those pics.  Sadly not so much in the way of faces.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> after all, who needs an excuse for a ruck with the auld bill? but it should always be under conditions of the protesters' choosing, rather than on a field of the police's choice.


Shape your enemy.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you're far from on the ball if you think pacifists see the cops as good.



Yeah, fair point, I often use the word when I actually mean annoying hippie moralist. Edited. (Although I do hate pacifists a bit too.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> Couple of badge numbers visible in those pics.  Sadly not so much in the way of faces.


if you'd seen those faces you wouldn't be sad about it at all


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> You thought it actually was for the cops?



That's not really an answer to my question is it?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's not really an answer to my question is it?



It's the implication of your question.  Should also be enough answer for you.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if you'd seen those faces you wouldn't be sad about it at all



I was kinda thinking those are pretty media-friendly images for getting an impact, but with a clear face in it I can see the potential conversations of the coppers at dinner later tonight as they try to justify things to their spouses and kids.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> I was kinda thinking those are pretty media-friendly images for getting an impact, but with a clear face in it I can see the potential conversations of the coppers at dinner later tonight as they try to justify things to their spouses and kids.


if they're still needing to justify their use of force to spouses and children (who may well have experienced similar themselves) then the marriage or relationship is not going to last long.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 10, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Just seen this on the twitter. The mask is slipping.




You're lucky if they're only twisting your ears. Another favourite tactic is to have a couple of coppers kneel on your ribcage while you're face down on the floor, and another kneel on your head. They will shout 'stop resisting' while they're doing this, whether you're resisting or not, for the benefit of any cameras or observers present. Most people will struggle though, as when you feel like your chest or your skull is about to be crushed it's very hard not to.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if they're still needing to justify their use of force to spouses and children (who may well have experienced similar themselves) then the marriage or relationship is not going to last long.



I expect to their kids they are "nice friendly bobbies who help people and sometimes need to arrest bad people".


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're lucky if they're only twisting your ears. Another favourite tactic is to have a couple of coppers kneel on your ribcage while you're face down on the floor, and another kneel on your head. They will shout 'stop resisting' while they're doing this, whether you're resisting or not, for the benefit of any cameras or observers present. Most people will struggle though, as when you feel like your chest or your skull is about to be crushed it's very hard not to.



Oh I know that, just observing that they are heading in that direction now. Will be an eye opener for some down there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> I expect to they're kids they are "nice friendly bobbies who help people and sometimes need to arrest bad people".


the divorced cop is a cliche, as is the dv cop


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the divorced cop is a cliche, as is the dv cop



Not sure if you misread me somewhere (though I did make an egregious grammatical error, which I have now corrected).


----------



## Idaho (Oct 10, 2019)

Patteran said:


> Comments under that are very ugly - cop & pro-cop responses.


Really grim. And if you click through to their feed/story/page (whatever is called in Twitter) they are all brexiteers.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> I was kinda thinking those are pretty media-friendly images for getting an impact, but with a clear face in it I can see the potential conversations of the coppers at dinner later tonight as they try to justify things to their spouses and kids.



I love love love the idea that coppers go home each night and give an accurate account of how they spent their day to their wives and kids, and then engage in a rigorous ethical defence of those actions, presumably with references to the family reading list. 

My mate's dad was a copper. I remember him coming home one night laughing his fucking face off about an arrestee who had tripped over while handcuffed behind his back, and unable to extend a hand to stop himself had broken his jaw and knocked several teeth out on the kerb. This person was a criminal, so their suffering was a good thing. Simple.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> Not sure if you misread me somewhere (though I did make an egregious grammatical error, which I have now corrected).


if it was the they're for their, i ignored it.

tbh i wouldn't be surprised if someone who inflicts violence like that on other people also shares the pleasure with their family


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> I love love love the idea that coppers go home each night and give an accurate account of how they spent their day to their wives and kids, and then engage in a rigorous ethical defence of those actions, presumably with references to the family reading list.



Cos that's what I said, innit.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yes


Will Caroline be tooled up on the next demo after witnessing this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Will Caroline be tooled up on the next demo after witnessing this?


she'll be wielding some nunchuks


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> she'll be wielding some nunchuks


Thunderflashes with 2p pieces taped to them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Will Caroline be tooled up on the next demo after witnessing this?








caroline lucas wielding nunchuks - an artist's impression


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

I can imagine Caroline making bulk purchases


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I can imagine Caroline making bulk purchases View attachment 186525


caltrops ftw


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

I think this will backfire on the police.
There is a wide spectrum in resistance. With the current XR tactic of love bomb passivity at one end and full on tooled up fighting at the other.


Pickman's model said:


> caroline lucas wielding nunchuks - an artist's impression





Pickman's model said:


> caltrops ftw


The Romans were big fans no?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

But seriously, seeing loved ones and friends getting deliberately hurt by the police, not even under the guise of "restraint", will make people very angry and quite likely to have a permanent change of view towards po po.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

i wonder what would happen if all the xr people who'd glued themselves to things glued themselves to cops instead.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder what would happen if all the xr people who'd glued themselves to things glued themselves to cops instead.


Big jail time.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

I would hazard a surmise that glueing oneself to the cop _vans_ sent to cart off the protesters would be rather effective. Just repeat until the police give up arresting people or they have no more vans left and a huge mess of gridlocked traffic caused by themselves.
Could be very funny.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I would hazard a surmise that gueing oneself to the cop vans sent to cart off the protesters would be rather effective. Just repeat until the police give up arresting people or they have no more vans left and a huge mess of gridlocked traffic caused by themselves.
> Could be very funny.


or people attaching themselves to tsg vans. at all these things there's lots of empty cop vans, or cop vans only with drivers in. if people started gluing themselves to those i wonder if they'd wreak havoc and immobilise the police. plus the acetone things the cops use, they won't have an inexhaustible supply of acetone in.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> or people attaching themselves to tsg vans. at all these things there's lots of empty cop vans, or cop vans only with drivers in. if people started gluing themselves to those i wonder if they'd wreak havoc and immobilise the police. plus the acetone things the cops use, they won't have an inexhaustible supply of acetone in.


Yes comrade, these tactics are sound.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 10, 2019)

Much better than fucking with the tube.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Yes comrade, these tactics are sound.



Just to be super-cautious, super-glue the ignition* first.

* - I am very old and don't care whether cars still work like this, don't bother correcting me


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

8ball said:


> Just to be super-cautious, super-glue the ignition* first.
> 
> * - I am very old and don't care whether cars still work like this, don't bother correcting me


if someone was feeling reckless they could superglue something up the exhaust


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I suspect you live a pretty mobile and digitally connected life in a western city, unlike many in the world.



well, mobile in the sense I'm on my pushbike most days; digitally connected, of course, like about two thirds of people worldwide. In any event, we're talking about XR in the UK which has much higher connectivity.


> Anyway, you might feel more connected to people on U75, but they're largely not the people you are able to organize with politically are they?


well, up to a point. U75 isn't facebook, which is where a lot of organising seems to be centered. Remember when an obscure backbencher took buggins turn to stand for leader of the Labour Party? Do you really think the he'd have won, or won so convincingly, in a pre-internet, pre-SM world?  Way back when we'd flypost details of meetings, look to see what was happening in the listings in weekly or monthly magazines, try to organise by word of mouth.  Now, the geographic component of organisation trails the electronic, if you're in the right whats-app group you know when the local meeting is, if not, how to find out?

You didn't answer about how 'community' operates and is understood by you, your neighbours and peers.  Is it substantially the traditional real world, bricks and mortar, based on pub, church, sports club or is that a much smaller component than interaction via the screen? Maybe my perception is entirely skewed.

As for material interests, back then there was no question about it, now you'd need to start your pub conversation by trying to prove the assertion that '_we share the same material interests_' in the face of (at the very least) the example of gentrification (on another thread perhaps, I hope you see what I'm driving at). That's where XR scores- so many people start from the pov that we share common interests wrt climate change, even in the face of increasing air travel and soaring sales of SUVs for the innercity school run. If geographic community organising is the way forward maybe this is the moment, it's hard to think of a campaign more likely to encourage local organisation all across the world.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if someone was feeling reckless they could superglue something up the exhaust


Expanding foam?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Expanding foam?


possibly


----------



## Idaho (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> possibly


Probably the exhaust pipe would need to have cooled down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

newbie said:


> well, mobile in the sense I'm on my pushbike most days; digitally connected, of course, like about two thirds of people worldwide. In any event, we're talking about XR in the UK which has much higher connectivity.
> 
> well, up to a point. U75 isn't facebook, which is where a lot of organising seems to be centered. Remember when an obscure backbencher took buggins turn to stand for leader of the Labour Party? Do you really think the he'd have won, or won so convincingly, in a pre-internet, pre-SM world?  Way back when we'd flypost details of meetings, look to see what was happening in the listings in weekly or monthly magazines, try to organise by word of mouth.  Now, the geographic component of organisation trails the electronic, if you're in the right whats-app group you know when the local meeting is, if not, how to find out?
> 
> ...


whoa there. digitally connected? i think you'll find you're rather off the mark:


not all those 5.13bn people are going to have internet enabled phones or tablets


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Probably the exhaust pipe would need to have cooled down.


take advantage of the heat and put a potato up there


----------



## andysays (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> take advantage of the heat and put a potato up there


Sometimes traditional is best


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> whoa there. digitally connected? i think you'll find you're rather off the mark:
> View attachment 186542
> 
> not all those 5.13bn people are going to have internet enabled phones or tablets


fair enough (although you might wish to demonstrate that there's any analogue mobile phone services these days).  I don't think the absolute number changes the sense that those who are connected will increasingly communicate via sm.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

newbie said:


> well, mobile in the sense I'm on my pushbike most days; digitally connected, of course, like about two thirds of people worldwide. In any event, we're talking about XR in the UK which has much higher connectivity.
> 
> well, up to a point. U75 isn't facebook, which is where a lot of organising seems to be centered. Remember when an obscure backbencher took buggins turn to stand for leader of the Labour Party? Do you really think the he'd have won, or won so convincingly, in a pre-internet, pre-SM world?  Way back when we'd flypost details of meetings, look to see what was happening in the listings in weekly or monthly magazines, try to organise by word of mouth.  Now, the geographic component of organisation trails the electronic, if you're in the right whats-app group you know when the local meeting is, if not, how to find out?
> 
> ...



Nobody is denying the importance of social media, but communication and advertising is very different to actual organizing. And mobile as in socially; you'll have moved about a bit, maybe have been to university, work in a job that requires skills like computer use - things that are far from universal in the UK, let alone the world. As for community, I agree it's a lazy and somewhat difficult to define term. How about class instead?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> As for community, I agree it's a lazy and somewhat difficult to define term. How about class instead?



Yeah, that's an easy one.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

At Trafalgar Square. Busy here. These people have locked themselves to a wooden structure.Police are starting to work to get them down. No Love Police this time


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 10, 2019)

Gramsci
there seems rather a want of shoulder numbers in your photo (#2455)


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

U75 favourite protestors in Trafalgar Square


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

They got on protestor off the wooden structure.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 10, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> View attachment 186560



Spot Special Branch!


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

Another wooden structure with XR chained to it. Heard police are going to try to clear roads around Trafalgar Square tonight. Push XR off the roads onto the square itself.


----------



## newbie (Oct 10, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Nobody is denying the importance of social media, but communication and advertising is very different to actual organizing. And mobile as in socially; you'll have moved about a bit, maybe have been to university, work in a job that requires skills like computer use - things that are far from universal in the UK, let alone the world.


well I accept some of that, but I've lived in this house for about 35 years and the area for a decade longer, so not that mobile   One of the things I appreciate about U75 is gaining some understanding of other people views, from elsewhere in the country/world and from different demographics.  You're apparently reluctant to expand on how community works where you are, and from your (mobile?, connected) experience.  Which is obviously up to you, but doesn't really bolster your initial point about rooting change in geographic communities.


> As for community, I agree it's a lazy and somewhat difficult to define term. How about class instead?


that's changing the subject though, and is pretty wellworn territory on here.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

newbie said:


> You're apparently reluctant to expand on how community works where you are, and from your (mobile?, connected) experience.  Which is obviously up to you, but doesn't really bolster your initial point about rooting change in geographic communities.



It doesn't really work, that's the whole point. The political project is largely about re-establishing it along anti-State anti-capitalist lines. And it's hard, but if it wasn't hard it wouldn't be called struggle.

And where else could you root it, on a blog? Change is in large part going to be about providing political structures and material needs to people, where can this be done in anything but a physical space (workplaces or neighborhoods)? It doesn't mean we don't need social media and other forms of communication, but I don't see how they end up being able to physically enact the process of communalizing of resources and resisting their re-enclosure needed to provide what people need to survive. Are you really talking about organizing political activism rather than a wider social process?

Anyway, bit of a derail, back to pics of hippies.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

Good atmosphere in Trafalgar Square. St James park has been cleared so everyone has moved here. There are arts and performance later on


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

A few people


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

Art


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

Police still trying to get protestor off the wooden structure


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 10, 2019)

XR who was chained to the wooden structure taken away


----------



## redcogs (Oct 10, 2019)

in a right world you would be receiving a healthy stipend as gratitude for you first rate photographic record Gramsci.  i sense these days are important.


----------



## LDC (Oct 10, 2019)

Walked from Victoria station to Trafalgar Square via Parliament and Millbank this evening. Huge amounts of police and barriers everywhere, especially around Parliament, with small amounts of XR people wandering all through the area.

At Trafalgar Square there seemed to be a few thousand people, loads of tents and banners etc etc and a bit of a festival vibe with dancing and music. Quite an odd spectacle, as has been mentioned felt very devoid of anger and antagonism, more semi-religious. Feels like something Paul Mason might say but it did have the sense of a very 21st Century new type of protest thing.

XR definitely have something about them that widely appeals and has caught a particular moment.


----------



## Patteran (Oct 10, 2019)

Idaho said:


> Really grim. And if you click through to their feed/story/page (whatever is called in Twitter) they are all brexiteers.



It seems a co-ordinated or collective response to that cop monitoring account - lots of posts similar in tone & content - i'd guess from cop/cop adjacent social media.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 10, 2019)

Has Roy Harper turned up yet?


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

I went on the XR Critical Mass this evening which was good fun.

Plan (from memory as posted on facebook) was Mall - Hyde Park Corner - Vaux Bridge - Millbank - Downing St.

The cops blocked off Lambeth Bridge and Millbank so we ended up going through the back streets of Victoria again and back to HPC at which point I bailed. Seems weird to tell them the route? Maybe they normally do it but the cops haven't got 3 vans full of public order police to stop the ride? Dunno, haven't been on a CM for years so not sure what usually happens.

Most motorists were pretty cool, few aggro arseholes but much more smiles and waves. Seemed to be a couple of thousand by the end but hard to tell.

Some more pics.

















This was right at the start, many, many more people turned up but the iphone camera is shit in the dark so pointless trying to capture it.


----------



## Schmetterling (Oct 10, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> U75 favourite protestors in Trafalgar SquareView attachment 186559 View attachment 186560



i was hoping you would have photographs of this. I saw them in The Strand and thought they were awesome.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

A bit of video. I did do an arty one cycling up an empty mall back to T Sq but obviously didn't press record...


----------



## nyxx (Oct 10, 2019)

spitfire ,

There was a legal battle somewhere down the line, critical mass won, they’re not obliged to inform the police of a planned route in advance of the mass.
(Thank fuck)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 10, 2019)

nyxx said:


> spitfire ,
> 
> There was a legal battle somewhere down the line, critical mass won, they’re not obliged to inform the police of a planned route in advance of the mass.
> (Thank fuck)



cos there is no planned route as there is no planner, spontaneous gathering, guv.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> cos there is no planned route as there is no planner, spontaneous gathering, guv.



See that's what I thought but on the event page there was a proposed route and that certainly seemed to be what they were aiming for but couldn't get through the thin blue line. I did see some of the people at the front conferring and they all seemed to be if not "in charge" definitely used to directing a large group of people on bikes.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 10, 2019)

How long is this XR event going on for?


----------



## nyxx (Oct 10, 2019)

spitfire said:


> See that's what I thought but on the event page there was a proposed route and that certainly seemed to be what they were aiming for but couldn't get through the thin blue line. I did see some of the people at the front conferring and they all seemed to be if not "in charge" definitely used to directing a large group of people on bikes.



The legal battle I mentioned was over the monthly critical mass rides.
Doesn’t sound like this ride was organised by the same methods.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 10, 2019)

I had another look at the event and it isn't as cut and dried as I remember but there is a vague plan on there.

To my mind you wouldn't share anything but a start point like you say the regular ones do. The police had 2 solid lines across Lambeth Bridge and Millbank and basically herded us back to Victoria. Even had the helicopter watching along whilst by the river.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 10, 2019)

Pain & compliance...



then some of the silly fuckers do this:


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 10, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Pain & compliance...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jeez I just don't know what compels people to do that.  It's so offensive in so many ways


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Pain & compliance...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





A pisstake, surely?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 11, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> How long is this XR event going on for?



Two weeks. But it is raining this morning and set to rain for the next three days. Which might dampen spirits a little?


----------



## albionism (Oct 11, 2019)

Boris Johnson's father Stanley joins Extinction Rebellion protesters


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 11, 2019)




----------



## Red Sky (Oct 11, 2019)

Up here for the day. Part of the problem with that is that pace of this is more like Test cricket than the 20/20 matches I'm used to.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

I had a wander around yesterday. Crusties there, sure, but they're a minority. 'Hideously white' as the Guardian would have us believe? Not really. Mostly white people but far from exclusively so. A large contingent of older people, and many of those most determined to be arrested when I was there were very old - at least in their 70s, mostly women. It's an eclectic mix, including Christian groups, old school CND protesters, socialist groups, groups who would reform capitalism. 

I liked the open, unled nature of it in many ways - anyone can take the microphone really. But my worry would be that a movement that would accept Boris Johnson's dad as a speaker is a movement without clear objectives. I'm still not entirely sure what a manifesto for XR would look like.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'Hideously white' as the Guardian would have us believe? Not really. Mostly white people but far from exclusively so.



And general levels of hideousness?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 11, 2019)

A small vicar block forming where I'm stood. Which should raise some interesting questions over bail for Sunday if they get their dog collars felt.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Pain & compliance...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Pain and compliance is another way of saying using torture to get someone to do something.

What is even more disturbing about the video is that this is institutionalised. The officer in charge ( the black officer with red lapels) is directing officers in the use of the torture techniques to get "compliance".

This isn't police officers gone rogue or losing their temper and lashing out. Or defending themselves from attack by protestors. Which one could understand. 

So its something police are trained to use. Institutionalised state sanctioned violence against peaceful protest.


----------



## A380 (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Pain and compliance is another way of saying using torture to get someone to do something.
> 
> What is even more disturbing about the video is that this is institutionalised. The officer in charge ( the black officer with red lapels) is directing officers in the use of the torture techniques to get "compliance".
> 
> ...



Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds. 

The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.

Why are you surprised?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.
> 
> The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.
> 
> Why are you surprised?


I doubt anybody is surprised.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.
> 
> The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.
> 
> Why are you surprised?


Police use of force (College of Policing)

pain and compliance techniques detailed in (the sadly redacted) https://www.college.police.uk/FOI/Documents/FOIA-2016-0088DDP4.pdf

it is interesting they're in a publication entitled 'personal safety' rather than a public order manual, suggesting they should be used in self-defence, not when there's a great pile on of officers onto one unfortunate person on the ground


----------



## andysays (Oct 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I doubt anybody is surprised.


I got the impression from some of XRs earlier statements that they weren't expecting or prepared for police violence, and from recent tweets etc that some people are genuinely surprised.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.
> 
> The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.
> 
> Why are you surprised?



I didn't say I was surprised.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

andysays said:


> I got the impression from some of XRs earlier statements that they weren't expecting or prepared for police violence, and from recent tweets etc that some people are genuinely surprised.


Ok. I doubt anybody _reading this thread_ is surprised. The idiot who sent flowers to Brixton Nick might be, I don't know.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> Yes. That’s why it’s called a police force. There is a monopoly of violence that the state holds.
> 
> The law ( s117 PACE just for one) permits the use of force to enforce many police powers.
> 
> Why are you surprised?



To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.

What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.
> 
> What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.


That's where the old people come in very tactically handy. Shame the fuckers into using 'pain and compliance' on an 80-year-old woman.


----------



## andysays (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.
> 
> What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.


The specific techniques may (or may not, IDK) be new, but police have been trained in techniques of physical persuasion for quite a while now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> To qualify Ive seen police being more "assertive" this time around. Grabbing hold of people had chucking them out the way.
> 
> What is new to me is this "pain and compliance" techniques. This isnt just brusque handling its techniques police are trained in.


a quick search suggests that 'pain and compliance' techniques are supposed to be used when the cops come across someone who is unwilling to go quietly

Pc wins handcuff damages


BBC NEWS | UK | A sharp shock to deal with violence


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

I think it's a delicate line to tread here. Outrage at the very slightest use of physical force makes the protesters appear naive, particularly where the coppers are not piling in like coppers might do. You risk alienating those watching, or worse, making them feel sorry for the police. 

At the same time, making it clear they are using pain as a technique by wailing loudly can be effective, especially from people who are not themselves at all physically threatening. And as Frank pointed out earlier, telling people to stop resisting is a normal plod tactic in order to justify use of more force. Close-up filming of the arrest showing that no resisting is taking place is also potentially effective. Embarrass the fuckers.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Police use of force (College of Policing)
> 
> pain and compliance techniques detailed in (the sadly redacted) https://www.college.police.uk/FOI/Documents/FOIA-2016-0088DDP4.pdf
> 
> it is interesting they're in a publication entitled 'personal safety' rather than a public order manual, suggesting they should be used in self-defence, not when there's a great pile on of officers onto one unfortunate person on the ground



A quick look at the heavily redacted manual and your right the suggestion is that these are techniques to be used in self defence against people who are being aggressive.

The last section is about the legal issues. The case studies are abou dealing with people who are violent or looking like they will be. What is proportionate reaction to that.

The XR lot aren't violent or giving giving indication they could be.

The legal bit at end of training manual cites the human rights issues. I would have thought there is possibility of a case here. The police response to non violent protestors isn't proportionate.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it's a delicate line to tread here. Outrage at the very slightest use of physical force makes the protesters appear naive, particularly where the coppers are not piling in like coppers might do. You risk alienating those watching, or worse, making them feel sorry for the police.
> 
> At the same time, making it clear they are using pain as a technique by wailing loudly can be effective, especially from people who are not themselves at all physically threatening. And as Frank pointed out earlier, telling people to stop resisting is a normal plod tactic in order to justify use of more force. Close-up filming of the arrest showing that no resisting is taking place is also potentially effective. Embarrass the fuckers.



Also I noticed the two protestors weren't being abusive. They were wailing and making it clear to onlookers that they were being hurt. So I'm guessing that XR could be training people to respond like this if police use "pain and compliance".


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Also I noticed the two protestors weren't being abusive. They were wailing and making it clear to onlookers that they were being hurt. So I'm guessing that XR could be training people to respond like this if police use "pain and compliance".


Yep. Although tbf if they were being really badly hurt, I'd expect them to be abusive. I'm a bit undecided on that as a tactic. There is clearly a current within XR that doesn't want to make the police an enemy of the movement. But the police's place in society necessarily puts them in opposition to protesters who wish to disrupt the system - the police are, among other things, protectors of the system. (ETA: In a rebellion, surely you encourage the police to swap sides and join you.) Takes me back to a previous point - I'm not sure what XR really stands for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> A quick look at the heavily redacted manual and your right the suggestion is that these are techniques to be used in self defence against people who are being aggressive.
> 
> The last section is about the legal issues. The case studies are abou dealing with people who are violent or looking like they will be. What is proportionate reaction to that.
> 
> ...


the other thing is that it's apparently an instruction being given - that is, officer discretion seems to be being over-ridden, and so the behaviour of any individual no longer determining the level of force used, but a senior officer who is imposing a blanket response.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Pain & compliance...


That is fucking horrendous


brogdale said:


> View attachment 186638


And so is that


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 11, 2019)

Standard plod tactics issued to the anti fracking activists at Balcombe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Standard plod tactics issued to the anti fracking activists at Balcombe.


i don't think this was rolled out just for xr, i think there's been some high-level thinking about how to deal and someone's piped up and said 'this is how we do it at wherever'. but tbh all the more reason now it _has_ been rolled out for xr to have the matter tested in the courts (as i imagine netpol or some similar organisation will). i don't hold out the liberal hope that a court case will prevent abuse in future: but it should lead to compo here and a nice precedent being set. just to be clear, i don't mean go for a judicial review of is this on, but a straightforward suing for damages.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

They're at Bishopsgate now. Might pop down for a look.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 11, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think this was rolled out just for xr, i think there's been some high-level thinking about how to deal and someone's piped up and said 'this is how we do it at wherever'. but tbh all the more reason now it _has_ been rolled out for xr to have the matter tested in the courts (as i imagine netpol or some similar organisation will). i don't hold out the liberal hope that a court case will prevent abuse in future: but it should lead to compo here and a nice precedent being set. just to be clear, i don't mean go for a judicial review of is this on, but a straightforward suing for damages.



I’m sure activists at Balcombe who were subjected to pressure point removal tactics had to suck up the fact that this plod tactic ain’t new, & when plod want you out of the way, they’ll use it (legally).


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I’m sure activists at Balcombe who were subjected to pressure point removal tactics had to suck up the fact that this plod tactic ain’t new, & when plod want you out of the way, they’ll use it.


i've seen cops use pain and compliance techniques for years, so i wouldn't base any legal action on cops being nasty. i would instead base it on cop telling cops to be nasty in an nvda setting, and the video evidence might make that a workable claim.

however, there's always one arsehole who wants to go for a judicial review


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 11, 2019)

Be interesting to see how it pans out, but ya know.....the state.

E2a I did edit my post to put legally.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 11, 2019)

The one and only rule for "pain and compliance" tactics seems to be "if you can get away with it". Out in the public part of Trafalgar Square there'd be an uproar. In the airport or in closed off areas or just when there's nobody about who cares (as with the legal observer being deliberately hit with a door) anything goes. Not new really.

Of course the cops concerned will not always make good judgements as to whether they can get away with it, and what they feel like getting away with will vary.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

At Bishopsgate now. Decent crowd totally blocked off, samba band and  2 separate sets of lock ons/glued people. Also glued to the door of the hotel and blocking the main entrance. G4S truck has a couple of lads on it but not causing any damage. 

Just had a cringe at We Love The Police...


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Just had a cringe at We Love The Police...




Cops in your pic and the ones I saw yesterday looking really very awkward about the whole thing. 

Good.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> View attachment 186709


Great pics spitfire


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

Cheers. Doing best with my iPhone can manage. 
One of the lads on the truck has tied himself on to a mirror with a carbinier and it’s attached to a noose round his neck! Cops have deployed tactical ladder.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

And now some tactical scissors that sheared the connection. An innovative but potentially lethal idea. Fortunately curtailed in its execution. Pun intended.


----------



## A380 (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> And now some tactical scissors that sheared the connection. Good idea. Bad execution. Pun intended.


I’m not sure I’d put any restraint round my neck if I couldn’t get at least my arse on the ground. Far to much risk of asphyxiation if no one, cops , fellow protesters or ambulance people don’t have immediate access to ligature shears. Also I once saw, video fortunately not physically, someone break their neck and die instantly from an 8 inch drop against a stick pushing on the back of his neck.

Sit on the ground or in a car with a D lock round my neck yep. Anything else you are well into junior Tory MP territory.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> I’m not sure I’d put any restraint round my neck if I couldn’t get at least my arse on the ground. Far to much risk of asphyxiation if no one, cops , fellow protesters or ambulance people don’t have immediate access to ligature shears. Also I once saw, video fortunately not physically, someone break their neck and die instantly from an 8 inch drop against a stick pushing on the back of his neck.
> 
> Sit on the ground or in a car with a D lock round my neck yep. Anything else you are well into junior Tory MP territory.



I think that was his plan. I was quite shocked tbh.

It probably wasn’t a good idea as you rightly point out. I phrased that badly.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Cheers. Doing best with my iPhone can manage.


You're doing fab. Urban's very own reporter at the scene  

Not sure about people hanging themselves for the cause though


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> I’m not sure I’d put any restraint round my neck if I couldn’t get at least my arse on the ground. Far to much risk of asphyxiation if no one, cops , fellow protesters or ambulance people don’t have immediate access to ligature shears. Also I once saw, video fortunately not physically, someone break their neck and die instantly from an 8 inch drop against a stick pushing on the back of his neck.
> 
> Sit on the ground or in a car with a D lock round my neck yep. Anything else you are well into junior Tory MP territory.


Yup without the poppers or the orange


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

Good was the wrong word. Will edit later. I stand by the pun though.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

Sooo. Half the lock ons have been removed. Still the 4 with the barrel. Bishopsgate totally blocked still. City folk remarkably non plussed for the most part. I’m hanging out waiting to see what happens with the truck people. 

a cop with a cardboard sign.


----------



## A380 (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Sooo. Half the lock ons have been removed. Still the 4 with the barrel. Bishopsgate totally blocked still. City folk remarkably non plussed for the most part. I’m hanging out waiting to see what happens with the truck people.
> 
> a cop with a cardboard sign. View attachment 186717


What does the sign say? “Fuck off Pritti Patel”


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> What does the sign say? “Fuck of Pritti Patel”


It says "I'm a massive cunt"


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

A380 said:


> What does the sign say? “Fuck of Pritti Patel”



got any doughnuts?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 11, 2019)

Came up through Liverpool St Station to the sound of samba on the main concourse. A nice nostalgic nod to J18.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

I’m still here but the iPhone camera can’t do anything useful anymore.
They’re just getting the second guy off the truck and the barrel people are still locked on. The window glue people are getting removed now as well from what I can tell

there’s still Loads of people here.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> View attachment 186723 I’m still here but the iPhone camera can’t do anything useful anymore.
> They’re just getting the second guy off the truck and the barrel people are still locked on. The window glue people are getting removed now as well from what I can tell
> 
> there’s still Loads of people here.


Away day for Welsh police e


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 11, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Away day for Welsh police e



Some of the Welsh constabularies seem to have turned into out sourced contractors for other forces.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Some of the Welsh constabularies seem to have turned into out sourced contractors for other forces.



indeed. In this case they were the removal specialist for the lock ons. Angle Grinder Massive.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> indeed. In this case they were the removal specialist for the lock ons. Angle Grinder Massive.



Indeed, I was tempted to try and delay work by striking up a conversation about the relative merits of Milwaukee and DeWalt.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Indeed, I was tempted to try and delay work by striking up a conversation about the relative merits of Milwaukee and DeWalt.



I was chatting to the XR guys in the crowd and was extolling the virtues of stainless steel tubing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> indeed. In this case they were the removal specialist for the lock ons. Angle Grinder Massive.


They were the ones doing detailed removal from lock-ons at Trafalgar Square that I saw yesterday too.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I had a wander around yesterday. Crusties there, sure, but they're a minority. 'Hideously white' as the Guardian would have us believe? Not really. Mostly white people but far from exclusively so. A large contingent of older people, and many of those most determined to be arrested when I was there were very old - at least in their 70s, mostly women. It's an eclectic mix, including Christian groups, old school CND protesters, socialist groups, groups who would reform capitalism.
> 
> I liked the open, unled nature of it in many ways - anyone can take the microphone really. But my worry would be that a movement that would accept Boris Johnson's dad as a speaker is a movement without clear objectives. I'm still not entirely sure what a manifesto for XR would look like.



I checked the website. I'm sure its changed now the statement is this wooly one that doesn't say much. Won't scare anyone off.

Our Principles & Values

The leaflets given out still stick to the original manifesto. Use NVDA to bring government to negotiate passing a law to reduce carbon emissions t zero with this overseen by a "Peoples assembly".

A kind of green dictatorship imo. This might be practicable. But its not something I'm keen on.

Hallam , my least favourite person in XR, has from this article been going around trying to get the working class vote recently :



> At one of his talks to the Byline Festival in Sussex – audience: radical intelligentsia – Hallam talked about the working class and how a leftish eco-movement really needs to think about “immigration controls, an end to the globalisation mantra, and also to start talking in terms of tradition, nation, honour – the things that socialists in the 20th Century talked about but have become taboo to the Left”


.


https://unherd.com/2019/10/can-extinction-rebellion-raise-a-working-class-army/

Admittedly this is a centre right website but reading it along with I've seen previously of Hallam it wouldn't surprise me.

He wants fodder who will go ahead get arrested to bring government to its knees. He's suggesting a Green Nationalism to get support.

I did have a chat last night at Trafalgar Square. The guy had been in Occupy now this. Decent chat about issues of XR. ( class issues) Id say most people I've bumped into in London in XR are pro immigration green left. Who see climate change as an international issue. With social justice and climate change not to be separated. Which imo is the better working class politics.


----------



## nogojones (Oct 11, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Some of the Welsh constabularies seem to have turned into out sourced contractors for other forces.


You're welcome to them. Keeps our streets safer


----------



## Cold Harbour (Oct 11, 2019)

And spare a thought for them camped out in Vauxhall Gardens in the pissing rain. Loads and loads of tents, it does show dedication. South Londoners rarely riot in the rain after all.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I did have a chat last night at Trafalgar Square. The guy had been in Occupy now this. Decent chat about issues of XR. ( class issues) Id say most people I've bumped into in London in XR are pro immigration green left. Who see climate change as an international issue. With social justice and climate change not to be separated. Which imo is the better working class politics.


yes, at its best, this is what it is. This is what it has to be. But there does seem a fair bit of disagreement as to exactly how you produce the radical system-level change required. As a pressure group, they're great. As a loose leaderless group, they're also great. Everyone brings their own idea of what should be done the party, which is both a strength and a weakness. It reminds me of critiques of the Arab Spring uprisings. Leaderless movements are fantastic at mobilising numbers on the streets in a way that is impossible for the authorities to nullify. But they may be much less good at producing directed change. 

Years ago, there used to be a fantastic piece of graffiti on a bridge between Stoke Newington and Stamford Hill train stations. In huge letters, it simply said 'WE CANNOT AFFORD THE RICH'. That has to be the message here, I think, bringing my ideas about what should be done to the party. It means telling Stanley Johnson that he is part of the problem. It means telling the police that they are on the wrong side. But that means something a lot spikier than what most in XR seem to stand for. I'm not a pacifist, but I admire people who are. I hope their methods get somewhere.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

I got back home just before the rain started tipping down and we're only up the road so there will be some wet people down there now.

I had a proper chat with one of the guys down there tonight, he was up for 3 days from Bristol to do his bit. We were talking generally about the set up, the actions. He said that although he found some of it "a bit cringe" overall it was worthwhile getting involved. I mentioned the We Love The Police chant and he pulled a face at that as well. Nice young (mc) lad, born in '94. Had never heard of CJB/A (unsurprisingly I guess) but the impression I got from him is that XR are the biggest game in town and that's why he's got involved. I mentioned the overwhelmingly mc/white aspect of it and he acknowledged that as true but he sees it as them being able to exercise their position of privilege in a positive way. I think there is space here for influencing the direction of the movement if that's your bag, SWP certainly seemed to think so at the Bethnal Green thing. But I guess they latch onto anything so possibly not a good example. But what the fuck do I know?

Anyway hope I didn't spam the thread too much, some more pics here.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

And a video of the guy on the truck attaching his noose. He was not fucking about.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

Not spam. Good work.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> Cheers. Doing best with my iPhone can manage.
> One of the lads* on the truck has tied himself on to a mirror with a carbinier and it’s attached to a noose round his neck! Cops have deployed tactical ladder.





spitfire said:


> And now some tactical scissors that sheared the connection. An innovative but potentially lethal idea. Fortunately curtailed in its execution. Pun intended.



Edited... 

*should mention it turned out there was a man and a woman up there. She had short hair in my defence.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 11, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Two weeks. But it is raining this morning and set to rain for the next three days. Which might dampen spirits a little?



Im sure more bivouac‘s will go up to shelter from the elements.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

Great photos spitfire


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 11, 2019)

I did have a chat with an XR at Trafalgar Square yesterday.

He had been in Occupy. I said I would like to see the XR banner in Scotland about Class and climate change. That was told here that XR Scotland were more upfront about climate change and social justice.

I di say one of the good things about XR was it gave an opportunity for people to get on with something that not everyone wanted to read books of theory all the time.

He surprised me by saying that XR should also reflect on their practice. Just doing things wasnt enough.

So I think some discussion within XR is wanted. I don't really see that happening publicly.

He did bring up the issue of XR seeming to middle class. ( The XR who I met in Marsham Street also brought this up) And the issue of some sectors of the community can't really be arrestable. It may affect their immigration status.

So Class and the policy of NVDA and arrests is something that XR is aware of.

On class. I do think given the way the world is middle class are going to dominate. I see this in the couple of community groups Im. Middle class have better resources and "social Capital". Also more time. A lot of the people I work with do long hours to make a living. Time poor.

I find it hard to do the few community things with time I've got. So whilst I'm sympathetic I've already got a lot on my plate. He understood that. This goes for a lot of people I imagine.

Climate Change isn't the priority in a neighbourhood like mine where youth services have been cut and we are arguing with Council over adventure playground, affordable housing etc.

I'm not saying XR should advocate the overthrow of capitalism. But imo to get a lot of ordinary people onboard they are going to have to explicitly link a move to a zero carbon economy to economic justice. Both here and internationally. 

The XR in Marsham Street said to me he couldn't understand why Tory voters didn't see climate change as an emergency.

At present the theory behind XR is set by Hallam mainly. The literature given out is the same as last time.

The XR I talked to in Trafalgar Square wanted XR to reflect on the practise. I don't see this happening at the moment. XR isn't set up that way.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 11, 2019)

spitfire said:


> View attachment 186715
> 
> I think that was his plan. I was quite shocked tbh.
> 
> It probably wasn’t a good idea as you rightly point out. I phrased that badly.



The worry is that protestors try to outdo each other and someone ends up being killed.

Just watched some footage of XR protests in Australia and one bloke did a sit down protest on a railway line whilst holding a homemade cardboard sign whilst another protest managed to dangle ropes off a bridge in some kind of make shift hammock.

Sky News Australia is very hostile in their coverage of XR.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I did have a chat with an XR at Trafalgar Square yesterday.
> 
> He had been in Occupy. I said I would like to see the XR banner in Scotland about Class and climate change. That was told here that XR Scotland were more upfront about climate change and social justice.
> 
> ...



Yeah and there are lots of possibilities of linkage. Affordable housing and eco-housing for instance. They can be and need to be the same issue.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 11, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I did have a chat with an XR at Trafalgar Square yesterday.
> 
> He had been in Occupy. I said I would like to see the XR banner in Scotland about Class and climate change. That was told here that XR Scotland were more upfront about climate change and social justice.
> 
> ...



My thoughts ..
On reaction to the card to the police in Brixton my local XR group has decided we need to set aside time each meeting to reflect on practise 

Hallam being in prison for a bit  might not be a bad thing for the movement 

I wonder if the police tactics this time might have sharpened minds a bit more 


Labour for a green new deal has a lot of support within XR and they are firmly linking climate issues  to class and  justice issues


----------



## 8ball (Oct 12, 2019)

Have had a few fractious exchanges over Facebook today.  I know a good few XR activists socially, and a couple of coppers too.

I’ll be happy not to be proved right, and remain the eccentric Wolfie Smith uncle to their kids etc. but I think our little entente cordiale is coming to an end.

And it’s “pain compliance” not “pain AND compliance”.  

Stupid cunts don’t even know their own terminology.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> Have had a few fractious exchanges over Facebook today.  I know a good few XR activists socially, and a couple of coppers too.
> .


interesting pub you drink in


----------



## 8ball (Oct 12, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> interesting pub you drink in



Guess so.  Though it’s not just the one
pub.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2019)

8ball said:


> Have had a few fractious exchanges over Facebook today.  I know a good few XR activists socially, and a couple of coppers too.
> 
> I’ll be happy not to be proved right, and remain the eccentric Wolfie Smith uncle to their kids etc. but I think our little entente cordiale is coming to an end.
> 
> ...


Are your friend sets XR activists and police mutually exclusive or do they overlap?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They were the ones doing detailed removal from lock-ons at Trafalgar Square that I saw yesterday too.


Heddlu Police removing someone from a bathtub on Thursday:


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2019)

Heddlu is just Welsh for Police in case anyone is wondering...


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 12, 2019)

Big thankyou to our intrepid reporters, more power to your photofingers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Heddlu is just Welsh for Police in case anyone is wondering...


always makes me think of headless chickens.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 12, 2019)

This is way better than any of the London dancing I have seen:


----------



## spitfire (Oct 12, 2019)

That's more like it!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 12, 2019)

Interesting also to see Slough XR saying they would come to the United Friends and Family March in memory of people who died in police custody.

And now this:



But also this:


----------



## Sue (Oct 12, 2019)

Lot of police on Waterloo Bridge, especially at the top of the steps from the Southbank/Embankment. Wonder if they're anticipating things moving on from Trafalgar Square.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Interesting also to see Slough XR saying they would come to the United Friends and Family March in memory of people who died in police custody.
> 
> And now this:
> 
> ...




Expect there'll be quite a cross over at tomorrow's Rojava demos as well.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> Heddlu is just Welsh for Police in case anyone is wondering...


Fyc yr heddlu (suspect I've got this a bit wrong)


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> Big thankyou to our intrepid reporters, more power to your photofingers.



Thanks. I've had a cold past couple of days so havent been out.

Will try to cycle up to Vauxhall tomorrow to see the encampment in Vauxhall Gardens.


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Fyc yr heddlu (suspect I've got this a bit wrong)



_Ffyc_

I suspect


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 12, 2019)

chilango said:


> _Ffyc_
> 
> I suspect


Ah bollocks, ffyced it


----------



## LDC (Oct 12, 2019)

Some other thoughts and observations from a bit of time there the last few days...

1) Yesterday it felt like the attitude to the police had _very slightly_ shifted. Nothing like scuffles, but the crowd felt a bit more active and less passive.

2) As has been noted there is a real lack of anger still, it does feel very much replaced by grief with a semi-religious undertone.

3) The cross generational aspect is impressive, I'd be really hard pressed to say any one age group dominated.

4) The levels of naivety around the police and what they do are quite mind blowing, and people are quite fixated on filming things thinking that'll expose and shame them.

5) It looked like it about much more than just about climate change, plenty of stuff expressing wider ecological concerns. But...

6) There was a almost total absence of anything that was explicitly anti-capitalist or around poverty, austerity, social justice stuff.

7) Someone commented that it felt a bit like XR was the middle class panicking, and while it's not that simple, there is an element that does feel a bit like that.

8) There's a lack of the drinking chaos punk element you usually get with this kind of thing on the streets.

9) A fuck of a lot of thought and effort has gone into it on a number of levels and when lots of stuff often lurches without much thinking that's refreshing and exciting to see.

10) It's not going to vanish anytime soon.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 12, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Fyc yr heddlu (suspect I've got this a bit wrong)





chilango said:


> _Ffyc_
> 
> I suspect



Bwchiech.

(I think).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Some other thoughts and observations from a bit of time there the last few days...
> 
> 1) Yesterday it felt like the attitude to the police had _very slightly_ shifted. Nothing like scuffles, but the crowd felt a bit more active and less passive.
> 
> ...


Yep, agree with pretty much all that. For me, the 'middle class panicking' aspect comes out in the attitude towards the police. As you say, hopelessly naive - in the case of sending flowers, offensively so - and I find it hard to get my head around some of it. But it betrays the fact that many of these are people who, in their everyday lives, see the police as on their side, as 'serving and protecting' order, who haven't seen and would probably have a hard time believing the brutality the police are capable of. It also betrays a contradiction - they're seeking 'rebellion', _disorder_, but I'm not sure some have really grasped what that means.

On balance, I doubt the authorities see any of this as much of a threat at the moment. And for all the effort that's gone into it, that's ultimately a failure if it continues that way.


----------



## campanula (Oct 12, 2019)

Always keen to see the Protect and Serve' meme destabilised...so silver linings. The Tory promises  of 20,000 more plod and loads of new prisons gets all the justification it needs though...which is less comforting.

With crushing inevitability, there will be a widening gulf between XR and the forces of state control and oppression...so much depends on just how much appetite, middle class people with spotless records, have for choosing a side and committing to struggle.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Are your friend sets XR activists and police mutually exclusive or do they overlap?



Wasn’t sure whether you were thinking of Special Branch or actual XR ex or current police, but if you meant whether they were different friendship groups as opposed to talking on an individual level then yes.

We’ve known each other for a very long time, before XR and before involvement with the police force.  

One copper is very pro-XR.  Life is messy.  I know what the police are for and what they do, but I’ve seen him help people and my friend was a total lifeline for me when I suddenly became quite sick a few years ago.

So yeah, a bit of cognitive dissonance, I suppose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2019)

Load of XR in Russell Square listening to one of the most dispiriting speeches it's ever been my misfortune to overhear, with loads of plod round on steps and in doorways


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2019)

Been reading a bit about the Green New Deal today following on from what Miss-Shelf said about many XR supporting Labour party for a Green Deal. And me posting I'd like to see more of a link with climate change and social justice.

The Green New Deal isn't new. Its been around since the beginning of the recent economic crisis. Economists and Greens came together to put together alternative economic strategy.  It was ignored at the time. Now its back with some Democrats in US taking it on board.

The Green New Deal in short a way to move to carbon free economy in a way that also improves the lot of the working class.

Ann Pettifor, one of the economists who worked on it, said in recent interview on the GND that,



> *People have criticised environmental movements like Extinction Rebellion for being a largely middle-class affair. How could something like the Green New Deal get working-class support?*
> 
> I’m always reminded by people of Ken Livingstone when he introduced the congestion charge – all of his advisers said this would be the political death of him. On the day he introduced the congestion charge he put 300 new buses on the streets of London. That gave people an alternative.
> 
> The _gilets jaunes_ in France don’t have an alternative for getting around rural areas. The government hasn’t provided them with an alternative transport system, and then it’s clobbered them with the carbon tax, so rightly they’re objecting. The government has to invest in alternative energy, transport, and land use systems. We can do this in a way that is really very good for working people.



She is a good read. She has written a book on GND I'd like to read.

GND is Keynesian not about overthrowing Capitalism. So its about Government directing the economy more. She is clear on the resistance of capital to even this reformist deal:


> *OK, but what are the challenges you can foresee with this type of radical action?*
> 
> My reservations come back to the question of financing. To achieve zero carbon by 2030, we’d have to close down coal, gas and oil companies, and compensate them, and provide for and support their workers.
> 
> ...



So she is linking climate change to how capitalism operates. That to move to an economy that is green needs a discussion of how capital operates. Its going to resist any interference by government.

Also found this brief summary of a GND updated for Brexit Britain on New Economics Foundation website. NEF were one of the original groups along with green people like Lucas who wrote the first GND.

edit: oops forgot to put link to Pettifor interview:

How the Green New Deal was born - The Green New Deal Group


----------



## LDC (Oct 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Load of XR in Russell Square listening to one of the most dispiriting speeches it's ever been my misfortune to overhear, with loads of plod round on steps and in doorways



Go on give us something to moan about, what was the general content of this speech?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Go on give us something to moan about, what was the general content of this speech?


do you want to be here?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2019)

A Green New Deal would if it succeeds get more support from working people.

It would help alleviate some of the issues I list below which put people off.

At work whilst not all the van drivers I know are against what XR are doing. But recent measures have hit them hard. Like the ULEZ in London. A lot of delivery people are "self employed". Its not easy to change your van when faced with measures like this. Which though necessary dont affect everyone equally.

Or my local neighborhood were green measure of closing roads through the estate were met with such suspicion by estate residents the Council dropped the scheme.

And demonstrations at Billingsgate market by animal rights protestors linked to XR aren't going to help. I come from a working class community in South West who depend on fishing. Fish farming industry is causing problems not fishing as such. Animal rights activists are at liberty to make moral case against eating fish but that isn't the same as being against fossil fuels which cause climate change.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> A Green New Deal would if it succeeds get more support from working people.
> 
> It would help alleviate some of the issues I list below which put people off.
> 
> ...



Fishing is enormously environmentally destructive.  XR isn't just about greenhouse gases , it's about the overall damage to eco systems.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The XR I talked to in Trafalgar Square wanted XR to reflect on the practise. I don't see this happening at the moment. XR isn't set up that way.



It's hard to see how reflection or even basic feedback is going to work with their current model. They do seem to have finally upped their game a bit with their legal advice but that was after a lot of public pressure from a lot of people outside XR.

There is of course the danger of feedback and self-reflection becoming the major or sole focus of an organisation, but as with most things there's a middle ground in there somewhere.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2019)

Interesting to see Steve Hedley of the RMT was speaking in Trafalgar square today.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 12, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> And demonstrations at Billingsgate market by animal rights protestors linked to XR aren't going to help. I come from a working class community in South West who depend on fishing. Fish farming industry is causing problems not fishing as such. Animal rights activists are at liberty to make moral case against eating fish but that isn't the same as being against fossil fuels which cause climate change.



From the couple of people involved with Animal Rebellion I've met, one very involved and one tangenitally, they don't give a shit about that.  They don't seem to have any politics beyond shouting at people for not being vegan and demanding people stop having kids.  They are profoundly anti-human, seem to relish the coming apocalypse which they are convinced is imminent and unlike most militant AR activists of the past have no grounding in anarchism or links to wider struggles.  They were initially threatening to shut down Smithfield Meat Market for the whole two weeks although someone seems to have seen sense and called that off.  I guess it's easier to fuck up market traders than take on someone like Huntingdon Life Sciences.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Fishing is enormously environmentally destructive.  XR isn't just about greenhouse gases , it's about the overall damage to eco systems.



From what I've seen this week its about Greenhouse Gases. Except for the animals rights lot at Billingsgate telling me not to eat fish for reasons that have nothing to do with green house gases

I said in my post that fish farming is a problem.

But the little trawler in my home town Plymouth isn't. That is not industrial scale fishing nor is it fish farming.

Plus looks at XR website. Says this:


> Each generation is given two things: one is the gift of the world, and the other is the duty of keeping it safe for those to come. The generations of yesterday trust those of today not to take more than their share, and those of tomorrow trust their elders to care for it.



About Us - Extinction Rebellion

Fishing in my area has been going on for generations. Its small scale. Its not like the average fisherman in my home town is to be equated with a CEO of Shell. 

Unless being vegan is a XR objective?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 12, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Been reading a bit about the Green New Deal today following on from what Miss-Shelf said about many XR supporting Labour party for a Green Deal. And me posting I'd like to see more of a link with climate change and social justice.
> 
> The Green New Deal isn't new. Its been around since the beginning of the recent economic crisis. Economists and Greens came together to put together alternative economic strategy.  It was ignored at the time. Now its back with some Democrats in US taking it on board.
> 
> ...


I went to a talk by James Meadway [from NEF] and Labour for a GND   [interview about his economic vision ] 

I'd agree 





> GND is Keynesian not about overthrowing Capitalism. So its about Government directing the economy more. She is clear on the resistance of capital to even this reformist deal:
> So she is linking climate change to how capitalism operates. That to move to an economy that is green needs a discussion of how capital operates. Its going to resist any interference by government.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I went to a talk by James Meadway [from NEF] and Labour for a GND   [interview about his economic vision ]
> 
> I'd agree



A lot in that interview. Lost me on the last bit about MMT. That's a debate I don't know about.

The linking of a new economic strategy to greening the economy is important debate to be had. He prefers the term Green Industrial Revolution. As Green New Deal depends on understanding of US recent past. Where as a Green Industrial Revolution links to this countries past and is what is needed. But this time with social justice.

This bit is about jobs:



> Fourth, I think describing that vision has to also look beyond simply what is the economic norm today – it’s clear, for instance, that reductions in working time are strongly associated with reductions in environmental damage. We need to think far more radically and creatively about how decarbonisation is going to happen, and how this can be part of a vision for a better society for everyone.
> 
> That starts, I think, with opening up discussions about industrial strategy, which will include a heavy focus on government spending and investment, and on delivering for the different regions – alongside a discussion about ownership. For example, if we are looking to adapt some of the principles of the circular economy – reducing waste and encouraging reuse – we will also be looking to create large numbers of jobs in repair, reconstruction and reprogramming. This can be small-scale, localised production and manufacture. Likewise, if we want a mass programme of loft insulation, as in the Labour manifesto, it’ll create tens of thousands of jobs not only for those installing the insulation, but also down the supply chain in the batch production of moulded insulation for specific houses. And new manufacturing technologies like 3d printing, meanwhile, offer the prospect of more efficient, more specialised production at a smaller scale. All of this can (and should) be done with decentralised forms of ownership – that as in places like Preston we should be looking to create forms of worker and co-operative ownership to deliver this.



This is all good stuff. Meadway was or still is in Counterfire.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion co-leader Skeena Rathor grilled on Good Morning Britain show, challenged on whether the XR protest is basically not changing anyone’s mind, the event is a middle class street party, a huge waste of police resources that ultimately affects the most poor and vulnerable in society, and those participating are hypocritical fossil fuel consuming carbon emitters!  



Spoiler: warning - also features Piers Morgan








Also mention of XR protestors using diesel generators.

Quite an entertaining exchange that featured some of the videos already posted on this thread.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 13, 2019)

It is probably a mistake for XR not to take it on the chin when accused of hypocrisy.  Everyone of us is locked into the carbon economy,  may as well own up and move on to the main argument (creating an ecologically friendly world economy that functions in the interests of every citizen, not the 'top' few percent).  Playing the bourgoise political game at the same time as asking for the Truth to be told (and faced ) doesn't fit that well for me.

Not to excuse Pies Morgan's boorishness at all btw.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

Accusing people of hyprocrisy is typical right wing tactic. Take gentrification. Be critical of it and then ones posts get scrutinised for evidence of "hypocrisy". People who are happy with the how society is ( with a few tweaks to chow how liberal they are) see it as a sport to ridicule the silly "hypocritical" lefties.

Another one from the right is insisting that they really care about the poor and vulnerable.

People don't live in a society of their own choosing. So if they protest to change it then its easy to accuse them of hyprocrisy.


----------



## xenon (Oct 13, 2019)

redcogs said:


> It is probably a mistake for XR not to take it on the chin when accused of hypocrisy.  Everyone of us is locked into the carbon economy,  may as well own up and move on to the main argument (creating an ecologically friendly world economy that functions in the interests of every citizen, not the 'top' few percent).  Playing the bourgoise political game at the same time as asking for the Truth to be told (and faced ) doesn't fit that well for me.
> 
> Not to excuse Pies Morgan's boorishness at all btw.



Pretty much what Sarah Allan did on LBC this morning when confronted by a boneheaded caller with the do you have pets, do you drive, gotya shtick.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Accusing people of hyprocrisy is typical right wing tactic. Take gentrification. Be critical of it and then ones posts get scrutinised for evidence of "hypocrisy". People who are happy with the how society is ( with a few tweaks to chow how liberal they are) see it as a sport to ridicule the silly "hypocritical" lefties.
> 
> Another one from the right is insisting that they really care about the poor and vulnerable.
> 
> People don't live in a society of their own choosing. So if they protest to change it then its easy to accuse them of hyprocrisy.


It's designed to be a no-win question anyway. The only possible direct responses then get used to make you seem a liar ("no I don't do that"), a hypocrite ("yeah I do that"), and/or holier-than-thou ("yeah I do that but I am trying my best to reduce my personal impact"). Also it is designed to distract attention from any systemic critique by concentrating on individuals.

There's no point in engaging with people like Morgan who are not arguing in good faith.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Interesting to see Steve Hedley of the RMT was speaking in Trafalgar square today.


What did he say?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 13, 2019)

xenon said:


> Pretty much what Sarah Allan did on LBC this morning when confronted by a boneheaded caller with the do you have pets, do you drive, gotya shtick.


A few people have always been vocal about self righteous green types gunning for their V8 four wheel drives. Make it clear this is not what you are aiming at, gobby petrol heads. 
It's transport and fuelling lives for the mass.


----------



## agricola (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Accusing people of hyprocrisy is typical right wing tactic. Take gentrification. Be critical of it and then ones posts get scrutinised for evidence of "hypocrisy". People who are happy with the how society is ( with a few tweaks to chow how liberal they are) see it as a sport to ridicule the silly "hypocritical" lefties.
> 
> Another one from the right is insisting that they really care about the poor and vulnerable.
> 
> People don't live in a society of their own choosing. So if they protest to change it then its easy to accuse them of hyprocrisy.



TBH the worst thing about that tactic is that the opponents of the right are so reluctant to use it themselves.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

MP David Davies has called for a tax investigation into XR’s finances after docs have been leaked showing 168 activists claiming expenses from XR totalling over £200,000.

Apparently someone called Tamsin Omond (granddaughter of Dorset baron Sir Thomas Lee) claimed £1340 between Nov to Dec last year.


----------



## LDC (Oct 13, 2019)

Tamsin Omond's politics have always been shit, but bleating about an average of about £1,200 expenses claims per person seems a_ little_ off coming from an MP. I hope the left has more sense than to join in with that line of 'criticism'...?


----------



## chilango (Oct 13, 2019)

Tamsin Omond a very familiar name/face.

Anyone remember why?


----------



## LDC (Oct 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> Tamsin Omond a very familiar name/face.
> 
> Anyone remember why?



Plane Stupid and I think The Green Party among other things. Was briefly in the media a fair bit. The enemy within.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Tamsin Omond's politics have always been shit, but bleating about an average of about £1,200 expenses claims per person seems a_ little_ off coming from an MP. I hope the left has more sense than to join in with that line of 'criticism'...?


Anything seems a little off coming from fucking David Davis.

I like how there is a section in his Wikipedia profile called simply "Torture".


----------



## chilango (Oct 13, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Plane Stupid and I think The Green Party among other things. Was briefly in the media a fair bit. The enemy within.


Westminster School and Cambridge fwiw.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Crowdfunder: Crowdfunder set up to support Extinction Rebellion Lambeth arrestees


----------



## chilango (Oct 13, 2019)

chilango said:


> Westminster School and Cambridge fwiw.



Ironically David Davis has a far less privileged background than Omond.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> Crowdfunder: Crowdfunder set up to support Extinction Rebellion Lambeth arrestees


They (XR) have already got shitloads of money!


----------



## A380 (Oct 13, 2019)




----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

ddraig said:


> They (XR) have already got shitloads of money!



They should compensate all the self employed cabbies and couriers etc who have lost work due to their protest rather than pay for activists imo.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> They should compensate all the self employed cabbies and couriers etc who have lost work due to their protest rather than pay for activists imo.


Should the self employed cabbies also be reimbursing members of the public who have been inconvenienced through their own protests? And if not, why not?


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> Should the self employed cabbies also be reimbursing members of the public who have been inconvenienced through their own protests? And if not, why not?



I’m not aware of cabbies protests.  Have couriers also had protests?


----------



## kenny g (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> They should compensate all the self employed cabbies and couriers etc who have lost work due to their protest rather than pay for activists imo.



All cabbies should compensate pedestrians, cyclists, deliverypeeps, and drivers who have been delayed by cabbies occupying the road as cabbies.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 13, 2019)

At the end of the day the people who slow down London traffic on a daily basis causing untold economic misery are drivers.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 13, 2019)

ddraig said:


> They (XR) have already got shitloads of money!


Not coming to most individuals though for court related fees.   It is advertised (always has been)  in arrest related documents that people do it under their own £ resources but they may want affinity groups to help them 

Some people are claiming a basic wage in XR ...and *sometimes*  those positions are advertised...although of course,  people who last year were able to give a lot of time for free were then more knowledgable and skilled in the roles that then become renuerable after the coffers swelled in April


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

How do cabbies and van couriers plan to compensate the legions of Londoners who die every year choking on the filthy fumes from their vehicles?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 13, 2019)

Its the calcha of compesayshun gorn mayd innit


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How do cabbies and van couriers plan to compensate the legions of Londoners who die every year choking on the filthy fumes from their vehicles?



Wouldn’t London grind to a halt within 20mins if cabs and courier vans were banned?


----------



## YouSir (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Wouldn’t London grind to a halt within 20mins if cabs and courier vans were banned?



No.


----------



## Tubz (Oct 13, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> oh i think we've seen you somewhere before, my lovely


Knobhead


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I’m not aware of cabbies protests.


Perhaps you should educate yourself before uttering another ignorant peep.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Wouldn’t London grind to a halt within 20mins if cabs and courier vans were banned?



Remove 70% of the vehicles and the city grinds to a halt. Not sure how that works


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Tubz said:


> Knobhead


And off you pop.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I’m not aware of cabbies protests.  Have couriers also had protests?



Black Can drivers have had a series of protests using the cabs to block roads. Those that I've seen take place have been in Tottenham Court Road , Parliament Square, London Bridge and the Bank.

They were either daytime or early afternoon/ evening when people have been trying to get home.

The Black Cab drivers are well organised and the blocking of roads for half a day or an evening has been common over the last year.

Most of it is directed at TFL

I haven't seen any police using "pain and compliance" techniques to get the Cab drivers to move.


The police have stood by and watched.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Black Can drivers have had a series of protests using the cabs to block roads. Those that I've seen take place have been in Tottenham Court Road , Parliament Square, London Bridge and the Bank.
> 
> They were either daytime or early afternoon/ evening when people have been trying to get home.
> 
> ...



I’d hate to be doing my courier job in London with any protest going on as I’d imagine the congestion is bad enough without protests, but 2 weeks of XR disruption would be a killer.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2019)

So far the people at XR protests that I've seen arguing with hostile reactions fall into three categories:

1. Drivers and cyclists who have been unexpectedly (to them) stopped, shouting "don't you know people have to earn a living, stop getting in the way". Tbh it is fair enough being frustrated when you're probably under pressure to make a delivery and suddenly get held up.

2. Lone florid men in suits around the City and Westminster who take it on themselves to have a debate with people they pass by. This usually doesn't end how they thought it would; they stand there arguing for a bit and never manage to deliver the zingers they think they will, and eventually just wander off.

3. Blokes shouting stuff about hippies to look hard in front of their mates or to impress a girlfriend who's either of a similar opinion or is intensely embarrassed. They don't hang around.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I’d hate to be doing my courier job in London with any protest going on as I’d imagine the congestion is bad enough without protests, but 2 weeks of XR disruption would be a killer.



As useful as Amazon is, and it is brilliant to have all your tat delivered to your door when you live in the sticks, it should have no place in central London. There are Amazon lockers where shit can be delivered to and you go and pick it up.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

I really don't feel its good idea to set couriers and van drivers against the XR protests. 

These people have precarious jobs and provide a needed service. 

They are necessary for London.

Black Cabs are moving to be all electric a next few years. Already a lot of electric Black cabs on the roads. 

Cabs and delivery vehicles to hire are part of the solution. A move away from people owning cars.

Nearly all couriers are so called "self employed". So don't  get sick and don't have holidays. 

ULEZ has hit them hard. ( Not Black cabs who are exempt)

Wha is needed is a whole reorganisation of how delivery system for London works. How to use green transport and make sure people have proper conditions of work.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I really don't feel its good idea to set couriers and van drivers against the XR protests.
> 
> These people have precarious jobs and provide a needed service.
> 
> ...




We need to stop buying tat, tbf.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2019)

The number of couriers on the streets of London right now is absurd, and is part of an increasingly prevalent on-demand economic system that deliberately creates a sector of exploited couriers, as well as attacking any existing system (like "shops" or "restaurants") that might prevent that, plus increasing social disconnection. It's also massively inefficient - it's now way harder to get something delivered than it was ten years ago - but efficiency was never the point.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We need to stop buying tat, tbf.



Unfortunately Amazon Prime with ‘free’ delivery promotes conspicuous and frivolous consumption.

I’ve travelled 30 odd miles before to deliver a parcel that the customer has opened in front of me to reveal a pack of 5 biro pens, only to do the same again the following day with whatever else the customer had ordered the day before.

The amount of diesel fuel/carbon emissions for such trivial item deliveries must be shocking.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I’d hate to be doing my courier job in London with any protest going on as I’d imagine the congestion is bad enough without protests, but 2 weeks of XR disruption would be a killer.


...if you were unable to use and understand Google Maps. You know, the free to download thing with all its fancy live traffic updates, congestion notifications and automatic rerouting.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2019)

Interesting development today as XR protested outside New Scotland Yard over attacks on disabled rebels, specifically the police removal of infrastructure (toilets,  shelter etc).  This is the first deliberately anti police thing XR have done or endorsed.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I’d hate to be doing my courier job in London with any protest going on as I’d imagine the congestion is bad enough without protests, but 2 weeks of XR disruption would be a killer.



Funnily enough their are upsides. During the last XR protest in London when Oxford Circus was occupied by the second week a lot of traffic was simply avoiding Central London. So it was actually easier to get around. So a lot of traffic doesn't really need to go across the West End. 

Shows how traffic could be reduced in West End.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The number of couriers on the streets of London right now is absurd, and is part of an increasingly prevalent on-demand economic system that deliberately creates a sector of exploited couriers, as well as attacking any existing system (like "shops" or "restaurants") that might prevent that, plus increasing social disconnection. It's also massively inefficient - it's now way harder to get something delivered than it was ten years ago - but efficiency was never the point.



Food deliveries is the big growth industry. As you say its marketed as on demand system.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> ...if you were unable to use and understand Google Maps. You know, the free to download thing with all its fancy live traffic updates, congestion notifications and automatic rerouting.



I frequently use Google maps as Amazon’s routing is at times shit, but I’ll take your word that it would be able to successfully navigate around the XR protests, though I’d expect a very long day of work nonetheless as with Amazon and most other courier companies you don’t finish work until all deliveries have been attempted.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> So far the people at XR protests that I've seen arguing with hostile reactions fall into three categories:
> 
> 1. Drivers and cyclists who have been unexpectedly (to them) stopped, shouting "don't you know people have to earn a living, stop getting in the way". Tbh it is fair enough being frustrated when you're probably under pressure to make a delivery and suddenly get held up.
> .



Cycle Couriers haven't been complaining that I know of. When XR occupied Trafalgar Square to start with they put a cycle lane through it so cyclists could get through easily. 

The shouty commuter cyclist doesn't like anyone getting in the way even for a second. I've had run ins with that type.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I frequently use Google maps as Amazon’s routing is at times shit, but I’ll take your word that it would be able to successfully navigate around the XR protests, though I’d expect a very long day of work nonetheless as with Amazon and most other courier companies you don’t finish work until all deliveries have been attempted.


Because it's so difficult to find out where the protests are taking place what with all the press, Twitter reports., news reports etc etc. 

Now that I've illuminated your ignorance on the topic, do you now think that self employed cabbies also be reimbursing members of the public who have been inconvenienced through their own protests? And if not, why not?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> ...if you were unable to use and understand Google Maps. You know, the free to download thing with all its fancy live traffic updates, congestion notifications and automatic rerouting.



Couriers use Waze not Google.

Waze gives better routes and is updated for road problems better than Google .


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Couriers use Waze not Google.
> 
> Waze gives better routes and is updated for road problems better than Google .


Same company!


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> Because it's so difficult to find out where the protests are taking place what with all the press, Twitter reports., news reports etc etc.
> 
> Now that I've illuminated your ignorance on the topic, do you now think that self employed cabbies also be reimbursing members of the public who have been inconvenienced through their own protests? And if not, why not?



Yes, they should and specifically Amazon couriers.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> Same company!



That I didn't know. The Waze app is better than using straight forward Google maps. Van Drivers I know swear by it.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Couriers use Waze not Google.
> 
> Waze gives better routes and is updated for road problems better than Google .



I use Google maps for certain parts of rural routes as you can download offline maps, handy for when there is no signal and Amazon app stops working.

Amazon currently use mapbox which is inferior to its previous provider (can’t remember who) which had offline maps for seamless use when there was no signal.  The new mapbox does have offline maps feature only it doesn’t work and hasn’t since it was introduced.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> Perhaps you should educate yourself before uttering another ignorant peep.




I just love Cabbies. I know a few. I think they won the London Bridge dispute. It was about no left hand turn into Tooley Street.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Interesting development today as XR protested outside New Scotland Yard over attacks on disabled rebels, specifically the police removal of infrastructure (toilets,  shelter etc).  This is the first deliberately anti police thing XR have done or endorsed.



Good.

I mentioned on the bandwidth thread of all places, but a blind XR glued himself to a plane at City Airport. By the time they got him to court the filth still hadn’t given him his cane back, his brief had to beg the mag for it to be returned. Shit way to treat anyone.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I’m not aware of cabbies protests.  Have couriers also had protests?


Yes, really recently 

Royal Mail subsidiary couriers take strike action over working conditions

Food couriers too

Deliveroo riders in strike action in London and other cities against low pay · IWGB

And cabbies have quite a lot in last few years

Black cabs block Tottenham Court Road in protest over planned taxi ban

Black cab drivers bring London Bridge to a standstill in protest at TfL plans

Black cab protest brings Elephant and Castle to standstill in first of five demos this week


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Yes, they should and specifically Amazon couriers.


So any worker embarking on industrial action should be expected to reimburse anyone negatively affected by it, yes?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

https://www.taxi-point.co.uk/single...continue-to-bring-Westminster-to-a-standstill

 The question in my mind is why these regular planned protests by Black Cab drivers haven't been treated in the same was as XR two week protest?

I don't hear Cressida Dick talking about a more "assertive" policing when it comes down to Cabbies planned and frequent blocking of the highway. 

I've nothing against Cabbies. Its that there appears to me a difference in policing.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> https://www.taxi-point.co.uk/single...continue-to-bring-Westminster-to-a-standstill
> 
> The question in my mind is why these regular planned protests by Black Cab drivers haven't been treated in the same was as XR two week protest?
> 
> ...



Pretty sure the cabbies have never intended to stay put for days/weeks at a time.

Didn’t they also do slow drives around town to show their displeasure at Uber?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Food deliveries is the big growth industry. As you say its marketed as on demand system.


Definitely that's the one that's growing now. All part of the same structure though and using the same basic infrastructure - order shit via app and have it delivered. There's no real difference between the social position of Uber drivers, Deliveroo riders or eBay couriers.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Cycle Couriers haven't been complaining that I know of. When XR occupied Trafalgar Square to start with they put a cycle lane through it so cyclists could get through easily.
> 
> The shouty commuter cyclist doesn't like anyone getting in the way even for a second. I've had run ins with that type.


I only ever saw/heard one, to be fair. #1 is easily the smallest sector, though I can't account for anyone who was swearing at XR inside their car.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good.
> 
> I mentioned on the bandwidth thread of all places, but a blind XR glued himself to a plane at City Airport. By the time they got him to court the filth still hadn’t given him his cane back, his brief had to beg the mag for it to be returned. Shit way to treat anyone.


This isn't the only instance of deliberately giving disabled activists a hard time - protests today about deliberate targeting and confiscation of vital equipment XR Disabled Rebels (@XRDisabledRebel) on Twitter:


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Pretty sure the cabbies have never intended to stay put for days/weeks at a time.
> 
> Didn’t they also do slow drives around town to show their displeasure at Uber?



The Cabbies protests have been causing regular disruption over a long period of time. Its planned and coordinated blockage of the highway.

My question still stands. Why have XR been subject to what Cressida Dick called "assertive" policing to get protestors off the road when the same hasn't been done in the case of Black Cab protests?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I just love Cabbies. I know a few. I think they won the London Bridge dispute. It was about no left hand turn into Tooley Street.


I don’t, they’ve been massively against cycle infrastructure and healthier cities initiatives.

XR are an easier target for the police to push around.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2019)

editor said:


> So any worker embarking on industrial action should be expected to reimburse anyone negatively affected by it, yes?



Only if they had the kind of funds XR have at their disposal, currently nearing £1 million fwiu.

As I’ve already posted XR are paying out ‘expenses’ to activists, I might apply as it may have better sociable hours and pay compared to Amazon, plus you get to party in the streets.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 13, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Good.
> 
> I mentioned on the bandwidth thread of all places, but a blind XR glued himself to a plane at City Airport. By the time they got him to court the filth still hadn’t given him his cane back, his brief had to beg the mag for it to be returned. Shit way to treat anyone.


They wouldn't let him have an audio book on his cell either cos it was on a tablet


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 13, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Only if they had the kind of funds XR have at their disposal, currently nearing £1 million fwiu.
> 
> As I’ve already posted XR are paying out ‘expenses’ to activists, I might apply as it may have better sociable hours and pay compared to Amazon, plus you get to party in the streets.


Unions incur costs taking industrial action or organising demos and set pieces too. And the big unions have far more than £1m at their disposal. Look at what XR are putting on, that doesn't happen for nothing. One thing to be said for them is they understand the need to create a spectacle, it's not just a big banner and a few thousand placards for marching from a to b. I've got my own criticisms of XR but I doubt those expenses are for prosecco and oyster dinners. Who knows, maybe there are a few first class train tickets in there but still, attacking XR for spending on their demos and actions is a weak line of attack


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2019)

sleaterkinney said:


> I don’t, they’ve been massively against cycle infrastructure and healthier cities initiatives.
> 
> XR are an easier target for the police to push around.



I cycle around Central London five days a week and I have a lot of sympathy for cabbies.

I know a few. Its one of the last working class jobs in London ( now printing and docking has gone) where an ordinary working class person can earn a decent wage.

They have been trying to protect their livelihoods.

Cabbies trust in TFL and the mayor would have been greater if Uber hadn't been allowed in London. If I was a Cabbie Id wonder what the long term future of the trade is.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I cycle around Central London five days a week and I have a lot of sympathy for cabbies.
> 
> I know a few. Its one of the last working class jobs in London ( now printing and docking has gone) where an ordinary working class person can earn a decent wage.
> 
> ...


It’s actually a good example for this thread because it’s a massively polluting form of transport - those empty cabs driving around looking for fares and it’s mainly used by wealthy people. They don’t want anything to threaten their position and that means opposing stuff like cycle lanes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> They wouldn't let him have an audio book on his cell either cos it was on a tablet



Wankers. Horrid for him, a wake up call to XR. Prison cells are not yoga retreats...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I cycle around Central London five days a week and I have a lot of sympathy for cabbies.
> 
> I know a few. Its one of the last working class jobs in London ( now printing and docking has gone) where an ordinary working class person can earn a decent wage.
> 
> ...





sleaterkinney said:


> It’s actually a good example for this thread because it’s a massively polluting form of transport - those empty cabs driving around looking for fares and it’s mainly used by wealthy people. They don’t want anything to threaten their position and that means opposing stuff like cycle lanes.



both valid and pertinent posts


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 13, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> Interesting development today as XR protested outside New Scotland Yard over attacks on disabled rebels, specifically the police removal of infrastructure (toilets,  shelter etc).  This is the first deliberately anti police thing XR have done or endorsed.


if you want to support this action and you can get to Brixton police station there is a call out for arrest support 
We are in urgent need of support at the following stations:
Brixton station 12a-6a 6a-12p
Charing X 6am-12


Brixton WhatsApp: Brixton Station support
Charing X WhatsApp: Charing Cross Police stn


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 13, 2019)

What is arrest support?

eta: looks like you have to be trained for it. Can untrained people help?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 13, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> if you want to support this action and you can get to Brixton police station there is a call out for arrest support
> We are in urgent need of support at the following stations:
> Brixton station 12a-6a 6a-12p
> Charing X 6am-12
> ...


Hi - sorry to be a bit thick (and I can't access whats app as I don't have a modern phone) is arrest support something specific or just a demo outside the police station? what does 12a-6a 6a-12p mean?
I'll be going past the Police Station and would like to show my support.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 13, 2019)

It's taking a shift waiting inside [if you can get in] a police station in case arrested people get out
If a person [from XR] is released while you're there you can offer them a snack/coffee [and anyone else in the waiting area who needs it too] 
Check they have somewhere to go [especially if it's middle of the night] have an oyster to get there [they might have given all their stuff to someone else]
Let them use your phone to call someone
Take a charger to help them charge their phone
Let them use your phone to send through their details [if they want] to the XR legal back team for follow up later
Or give them the email/phone number of the XR legal team for them to follow up later

It's also about keeping another arrest support person company especially on the midnight - 6am shift


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 13, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Hi - sorry to be a bit thick (and I can't access whats app as I don't have a modern phone) is arrest support something specific or just a demo outside the police station? what does 12a-6a 6a-12p mean?
> I'll be going past the Police Station and would like to show my support.


It's going inside police stations where you can - at Brixton now it would be keeping the arrest support person company for a bit  and/or taking some snacks in

Let me know if you are going in and I'll update the whatsapp chat so that a person knows to expect you
XR supporters are often easy to spot

12am-6am shift
6am - 12pm shift
but any time anyone can give is valuable


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 13, 2019)

.  DP


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 14, 2019)

David Clapson said:


> What is arrest support?
> 
> eta: looks like you have to be trained for it. Can untrained people help?


absolutely - it's really just being somewhere and waiting patiently.   Many times you'll wait and no one will be released during the time you are there but sometimes lots of people get released and they really appreciate a friendly face at the end.  Or a chance to say how they feel.  Or a coffee.   or a chance to call a friend.   Or help orientating themselves and locating public transport.	The only technical thing is to get them to contact the legal team - either via your smart phone or via the details you give them to do it themselves later.

	If you or anyone else wants to do it you can access info by joining the whatsapp groups and asking for instructions

here is the google map with the police station groups across London so you can join a whatapp chat for a police station near you  Police Station Support Group Map - Google My Maps

ETA take something to read or watch - it's a lot of waiting about


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2019)

Usual walk to work...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2019)

Best banner in the flesh.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion bring traffic to standstill around Bank of England as group targets City of London



> Extinction Rebellion protesters have blocked roads outside the Bank of England as it bids to "swarm" the City of London in order to cause "maximum disruption" as the second week of protests begin in the capital.





> Twenty double-decker buses queuing down Lombard Street and King William Street were rendered stationary by the climate change protesters at Bank station.
> 
> The driver of the bus at the front of the queue said he had been stuck there for two hours - since 7am - and protesters showed no signs of moving.
> 
> Protesters were seen handing out leaflets which say "We're sorry" and explaining why they are protesting.



A normal 30min journey by this motorcyclist took and eye watering 1hr 20mins due to XR’s highly effective disruptions (bear in mind this guy knows all the short cuts possible in London and can normally weave through the heaviest of congestion).  He has a brief chat with a bus driver (5mins in) who has covered less than 1 mile in an hour.



Spoiler: RoyalJordanian navigates London during XR disruption


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 14, 2019)

Good they are targeting square mile, hopefully it fucks everything up there for a day or two


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2019)

"Give peas a chance "


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Best banner in the flesh. View attachment 187031



Uh oh...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 14, 2019)

Coppers dragging people off. Bemused tourists. Communal kitchen dispensing hot food. No traffic. Bears in the air.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

"Decolonise XR"?


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Best banner in the flesh. View attachment 187031



That’s an interesting banner, does anyone know what XR mean by that slogan (climate struggle = class struggle)?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 14, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> That’s an interesting banner, does anyone know what XR mean by that slogan (climate struggle = class struggle)?


A link between two forms of exploitation by the same set of exploiters, perhaps? I don't think it's that hard to imagine what is meant.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think it's that hard to imagine what is meant.



"Stop these oiks flying to Ibiza twice a year before they kill us all"?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2019)

Targeting the city makes sense. The plod there will find it hard.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Targeting the city makes sense. *The plod there will find it hard.*



Why is that?

I'm not from London.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2019)

8ball said:


> Why is that?
> 
> I'm not from London.


It's a small space and the City of London Police have a reputation to maintain. They are more aggressive than the Met Police and will find it hard to counter the tactics without coming across like the thugs they truly are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

8ball said:


> "Stop these oiks flying to Ibiza twice a year before they kill us all"?


interesting flight stats here 1% of English residents take one-fifth of overseas flights, survey shows


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> interesting flight stats here 1% of English residents take one-fifth of overseas flights, survey shows



Send XR the link.  
That idea of a progressive tax on flights is interesting - I can see the properly rich fighting that one tooth and nail.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> It's a small space and the City of London Police have a reputation to maintain. They are more aggressive than the Met Police and will find it hard to counter the tactics without coming across like the thugs they truly are.


are you forgetting operation benbow?



https://www.justiceinspectorates.go...-of-london-strategic-policing-requirement.pdf (2014 pdf)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

8ball said:


> Send XR the link.
> That idea of a progressive tax on flights is interesting - I can see the properly rich fighting that one tooth and nail boarding pass and duty free.


c4u


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 14, 2019)

TopCat said:


> It's a small space and the City of London Police have a reputation to maintain. They are more aggressive than the Met Police and will find it hard to counter the tactics without coming across like the thugs they truly are.



Since the off last Monday many of the filth in show have had the red and white checked caps...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Since the off last Monday many of the filth in show have had the red and white checked caps...



Guess that makes sense.  
Inadvertent display of honesty, in a way.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> "Give peas a chance "




That short clip seems pretty heavy handed of police arresting a seemingly jovial character.

Don’t know if he’d been up to any mischief prior but police should have given him a second chance purely based on his amazing costume.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 14, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Since the off last Monday many of the filth in show have had the red and white checked caps...


They are worse on home turf


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 14, 2019)

A largeish phalanx of yellow jacketed filth have just jogged along cornhill to the protest. It looks like the jog has wiped them out


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> A largeish phalanx of yellow jacketed filth have just jogged along cornhill to the protest. It looks like the jog has wiped them out


that's what i like to hear


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

XR main camp is now at Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens in Vauxhall. This is Lambeth council land. So far being left alone. Must be over hundred tents.

Photos early this morning on way to work.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 14, 2019)

XR chatting with the blue jackets  all smiles .These people are not your friends. They will set about you when the order is given.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> XR chatting with the blue jackets  all smiles .These people are not your friends



Learning experience is on order and with the couriers...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> XR main camp is now at Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens in Vauxhall. This is Lambeth council land. So far being left alone. Must be over hundred tents.
> 
> Photos early this morning on way to work.View attachment 187063 View attachment 187064 View attachment 187065 View attachment 187066 View attachment 187067



Wow.  Great photos, but you missed the one saying "CLIMATE CRISIS. GENDER CRISIS."


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> XR chatting with the blue jackets  all smiles .These people are not your friends. They will set about you when the order is given.


sometimes people have to learn things like this for themselves


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> sometimes people have to learn things like this for themselves



If you insist that "innovation" means ignoring all the lessons of the past, then you get what's coming to you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

8ball said:


> If you insist that "innovation" means ignoring all the lessons of the past, then you get what's coming to you.


if after seeing hundreds of their comrades arrested they still have illusions in the cops all the lessons of the past ten thousand years of human civilization will have utterly passed them by


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if after seeing hundreds of their comrades arrested they still have illusions in the cops all the lessons of the past ten thousand years of human civilization will have utterly passed them by



The cops have been pretty gentle on the whole so far, and a big part of their aim was to get arrested.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Bank still blocked off. Big crowd here. Cops not doing much at moment.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Bank still blocked off. Big crowd here. Cops not doing much at moment.View attachment 187068 View attachment 187069 View attachment 187070 View attachment 187071



I quite like "we only want the Earth".


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

8ball said:


> The cops have been pretty gentle on the whole so far, and a big part of their aim was to get arrested.


yeh. but the plain and compliance thing last week should have been something of a wake-up call for them.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> View attachment 187072


fatal error


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but the plain and compliance thing last week should have been something of a wake-up call for them.



I think there need to be a few more of those before it sinks in.  
A handful of cases is easily written off as 'bad apples', and some of them are probably still sufficiently indoctrinated to defend what they police are doing.

On the whole, the police still seem badly hampered by the fact that they are not used to dealing with people with much social capital, and XR have observers, lawyers, some financial clout behind them* etc.

* - though that of course brings its own demons with it


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Bank


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> BankView attachment 187073



Ok, I've been a little sceptical, so many false dawns and that, but at last I see XR have come out and openly stated that they "avoid blang and sming".

Where do I join up?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2019)

Er..._interesting _choice of words on the middle one.

_We actively mitigate for Power.
_
Hmmm.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Bank


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Ambulance came along and XR moved aside to let ambulance through.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Bank.


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Er..._interesting _choice of words on the middle one.
> 
> _We actively mitigate for Power.
> _
> Hmmm.


Yeah, that caught my eye too.

Does anyone have any idea what that's supposed to mean?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 14, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Er..._interesting _choice of words on the middle one.
> 
> _We actively mitigate for Power.
> _
> Hmmm.



Horrible wording.

There's more on their stance and what this bit means here.
I just read it, and I think "mixed feelings" sums it up for me.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

XR move aside again for ambulance.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Bank. View attachment 187078 View attachment 187079



They look like a cross between the aristocrats out of The Hunger Games and Eyes Wide Shut.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 14, 2019)

We've probably seen each other Gramsci - I've been there for a bit though am going to head back now, have some work to do. Was shooting digital for a change so will put some pics up in a bit though they probably look quite similar.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

XR at Bank


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Gresham st near Bank


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 14, 2019)

Looks like most places have taken down their flags to avoid hassle ( as if )


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 14, 2019)

XR will still be going on Saturday, there will also be a gazillion-man-march for anti-brexit. Busy day in town...


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> XR will still be going on Saturday, there will also be a gazillion-man-march for anti-brexit. Busy day in town...



They should just merge and have a big rave up.


----------



## Athos (Oct 14, 2019)

andysays said:


> Yeah, that caught my eye too.
> 
> Does anyone have any idea what that's supposed to mean?



I presume it's something along the lines of taking proactive measures to ensure the voices of the less powerful within the organisation are heard.   Decent sentiment, but shit phraseology, and implementation could easily descend into identity nonsense.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 14, 2019)

A few pics - you can see more of them at the whole album at 2019-10-14 XR Bank


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A few pics - you can see more of them at the whole album at 2019-10-14 XR Bank
> 
> View attachment 187117 View attachment 187118 View attachment 187119 View attachment 187120 View attachment 187121 View attachment 187122



Did you try any of the free vegetarian meals off the guy with the orange bike stall?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 14, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Did you try any of the free vegetarian meals off the guy with the orange bike stall?


I have not done so (I reckon as a non participant it is a bit much to deplete their resources) but tbh the food always looks much like what I cook myself - big vats of chickpea curry with rice and lentils and so on.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A few pics - you can see more of them at the whole album at 2019-10-14 XR Bank
> 
> View attachment 187117 View attachment 187118 View attachment 187119 View attachment 187120 View attachment 187121 View attachment 187122



good photos


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Did you try any of the free vegetarian meals off the guy with the orange bike stall?



The Hari Krishna lot have been feeding the protestors for free at several sites I've been at. 

I one of them on the cargo bike they use bringing another load of food to Bank.

They deserve credit for supporting the demos.

From today at Bank:


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

I had a few chats with XR today at Bank.

Bank btw is the old centre of the City of London. Where Bank of England is and the old Stock Exchange. So its of symbolic importance as a centre of capitalism.

The people I talked to had come from many parts of the country. Cornwall, Bath, Leicester.

They had come for a day or two. The protests are kept going by the large number of XR supporters in this country. People come for a day or few days and are then replaced by others.

Keeps numbers up. Also means that the support to keep this going despite arrests is large. This isn't just a few people sticking it out for the whole two weeks.

What appeals to person I had long chat with is that if you agree to the basic principles the local group's can decide on their own actions. That in her words their are no leaders. Any individual can make suggestions. In her view its not a top down movement.

She came down with daughters. It was their concern for environment that got her interested. So XR message appeals to teenagers. ( Not a criticism btw.)

Also from what she said there isn't pressure to be full time activist. I also heard this from the older couple of people I talked to.

You take part in and do what you feel up to. No pressure to be an "arrestable". As one of them said we also have work and other commitments. They definitely didn't want to. get into a situation where they could be arrested. XR are fine on that. 

In fact when I said the police had been heavy handed this time at various times they looked worried.

The lady from Leicester I had longer chat with came across as your average person concerned about this very important issue. XR has given her and her daughter's a way to express their concern.

I didn't get into a long discussion of my reading of Hallam.

Felt as they were there doing the protest id like to hear the views of a XR squaddie not one of the Generals. So to speak.

And they are a decent open minded bunch from what I've seen over last week.

This does not mean that some of XR leaders pronouncements can't be criticised such as the stuff about mediating power. Which a couple of posters here asked about after seeing my photo.

Thinking of my least favourite XR Hallam after today will give him his due on something he said a while back. That confrontational violent protest excluded sectors of the community. Old people , women were less likely to join in.

The emphasis on non violence as a tactic has also meant that people who might be wary of protest take part. Like the mother and daughters I talked to.

So on that Hallam has a point.

Anyway these are my thoughts on today.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

I also been trying to take time, when possible, to explain to people what I'm doing with the photos. That is putting them here.It makes a difference to people if they feel photos are being used for a purpose.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

> we are going to force the governments to act and if they don’t we are going to bring them down and create a democracy fit for purpose...





> ...*and yes, some may die in the process*



6mins 40secs into video



Wow, so are these protests going to eventually turn into a violent attempt to overthrow the establishment?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 14, 2019)

Met have now completely removed all "allowed" protest areas:





> Any assembly linked to the Extinction Rebellion ‘Autumn Uprising' must now cease their protest(s) within London (Metropolitan Police Service, and City of London areas) by 2100 hours on Monday 14th October 2019.



Not sure this will make any actual difference as nobody was paying attention to that anyway.


----------



## tommers (Oct 14, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The Hari Krishna lot have been feeding the protestors for free at several sites I've been at.
> 
> I one of them on the cargo bike they use bringing another load of food to Bank.
> 
> ...


I used to work in mental health supported housing and one of the tenants went to a Hare Krishna food stall every day. Credited them with saving his life when his mental health issues started.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Met have now completely removed all "allowed" protest areas:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What is really offensive about the Met statement is that they list the names of people who been charged at the end including the towns they came from.

There is something really nasty about the Met with Cressida Dick ( the incompetent who had a Brazilian shot in Stockwell as she thought he might be terrorist. Something that South Londoner like me still finds annoying that she now heads Met) as head of Met. Right nasty piece of work is Cressida. Revelling in the number of arrests they have made against non violent protestors. 

Thanks for your all your efforts Cressida - ACAB - is what your are.

There is something deeply nasty about priviliged people like Cressida boasting about how hard they have been.  They due to their privilege will never be at the blunt end of authority. 

UPDATE: Extinction Rebellion protests


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

Does anyone here know more about "Section 14"?

It appears to be very wide ranging way to stop protest.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

tommers said:


> I used to work in mental health supported housing and one of the tenants went to a Hare Krishna food stall every day. Credited them with saving his life when his mental health issues started.



The only problem I have with them is in Oxford Street ( near where they have their care/ HQ). They put a book in your hands and then ask you for money. I'm used to religious types trying to give me books. But assume they are free. Being an Antheist if I am going to get religious trying to recruit me I want it for free. 

Friend told me the Bhagavad Gita is an ancient Indian text worth reading . So might give it a go next time I'm asked by one the Hari Krishna lot to "donate" once he has handed it to me. After their efforts to feed XR I think I will buy one of their books.They deserve it.

Bhagavad Gita - Wikipedia


----------



## spitfire (Oct 14, 2019)

I'm not there but this popped up on twitter. They're clearing the square.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 14, 2019)

spitfire said:


> I'm not there but this popped up on twitter. They're clearing the square.










I hope this isn’t a turning point where things get nasty.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 14, 2019)

The Hari Krishna lot are down there and an organic veg supplier is donating to them. Me and the fam took pots of hot food down on Saturday, it was gratefully taken as there is not much hot food on site and it is cold and wet.
Not many XR are from London and are out in the elements, nice as a curry is some hot pasta and chili went down well.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 14, 2019)

IC3D said:


> The Hari Krishna lot are down there and an organic veg supplier is donating to them. Me and the fam took pots of hot food down on Saturday, it was gratefully taken as there is not much hot food on site and it is cold and wet.
> Not many XR are from London and are out in the elements, nice as a curry is some hot pasta and chili went down well.



Are you referring to Vauxhall Gardens?

I've got some food to take to Vauxhall tomorrow morning.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2019)

Vauxhall’s covered by the section 14 too. Everywhere covered by the Met and City of London plod is covered. 

The section 14 is legally very dubious, but by the time it is declared duff everything will be over. Weird that it happened a few hours after The City was targeted...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I hope this isn’t a turning point where things get nasty.


That's a barking mad tweet


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 15, 2019)

Some XR scaffolding going up this morning. Won’t say where yet but a prominent location. No cops yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some XR scaffolding going up this morning. Won’t say where yet but a prominent location. No cops yet.


long may that be the case


----------



## 8ball (Oct 15, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Some XR scaffolding going up this morning. Won’t say where yet but a prominent location. No cops yet.



Can’t fault their energy levels this past week and a bit.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

tommers said:


> I used to work in mental health supported housing and one of the tenants went to a Hare Krishna food stall every day. Credited them with saving his life when his mental health issues started.


I used to go and eat for free at their place off of Soho Square. No preaching just big plate of good food. Never forgot that.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> That's a barking mad tweet


I'm convinced. The scales fell from my eyes.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

8ball said:


> Can’t fault their energy levels this past week and a bit.


There will be loads of the left gnashing their teeth as they watch the rolling actions. If only they dedicated their energies more appropriately!


----------



## 8ball (Oct 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> There will be loads of the left gnashing their teeth as they watch the rolling actions. If only they dedicated their energies more appropriately!



I hope they do the “hi vis and hardhats” thing when putting up scaffolding and keep it ambiguous until the last possible second.  Seems a good way to delay the Plod.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> There will be loads of the left gnashing their teeth as they watch the rolling actions. If only they dedicated their energies more appropriately!


i think some of the people out recently will look further afield rather than repeat some of the recent tactical and strategic errors


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

8ball said:


> I hope they do the “hi vis and hardhats” thing when putting up scaffolding and keep it ambiguous until the last possible second.  Seems a good way to delay the Plod.


It's a safe bet they will.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think some of the people out recently will look further afield rather than repeat some of the recent tactical and strategic errors


Oh I think XR will change. The Welsh and Scots were / are more class orientated for example.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2019)

A few small actions already at random spots I see:


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Marylebone Road shutdown would have an impact impossible to mitigate.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 15, 2019)

Probably safe to post these now.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Probably safe to post these now. View attachment 187161View attachment 187162View attachment 187163


This is typical. All this energy and these resources and then they do THIS?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This is typical. All this energy and these resources and then they do THIS?


it shows a want of imagination


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it shows a want of imagination


Will take the plod ages to prb notice.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Will take the plod ages to prb notice.


now it's been on here the flying squad should be hurtling toward them


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> now it's been on here the flying squad should be hurtling toward them


River police trailing just behind...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Blame Fozzie


----------



## andysays (Oct 15, 2019)

Tell me that's a new art installation on its way to the Turbine Hall...


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 15, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Vauxhall’s covered by the section 14 too. Everywhere covered by the Met and City of London plod is covered.
> 
> The section 14 is legally very dubious, but by the time it is declared duff everything will be over. Weird that it happened a few hours after The City was targeted...



I think the City should be the target now. It always should be.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 15, 2019)

Are they tactically failing?
By being fluffy they are maintaining a persistent presence on the streets and media, getting on people's tits long enough for they're/our aims to sink in.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

Dropped some food off at Vauxhall. Lot more police hanging around the camp. But still lots of tents.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 15, 2019)

I'm in Vauxhall and 2 van loads wolfing down meal deals outside Tesco. I'd say they are about to go in. Helicopter over camp too by the looks


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2019)

Well if they clear the gardens you might expect them to take Vauxhall Cross instead.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Oct 15, 2019)

I agree with Monbiot on a lot of things, broadly speaking. But this just feels weird. "I plan to get nicked"


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2019)

Boooo


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Boooo




That is private land, so if the owner (South Bank?) doesn't mind then it is not a police issue???


----------



## chilango (Oct 15, 2019)

Tate have a long history of being in hock to oil companies, no?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 15, 2019)

chilango said:


> Tate have a long history of being in hock to oil companies, no?



Didn't they divest (or change corporate relationships) response to some recent-ish actions? 
Guess maybe not, hence XR being back...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That is private land, so if the owner (South Bank?) doesn't mind then it is not a police issue???


 

If the public have access then it falls under public assembly. Needs to be somewhere with no unfettered public access by default


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

chilango said:


> Tate have a long history of being in hock to oil companies, no?


sugar more an obvious link


----------



## 8ball (Oct 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> sugar more an obvious link



.

<I just said something really dumb>  

<or, for all my frenemies out there, I just *noticed* I said something really dumb...>


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2019)

BP to end Tate sponsorship after 26 years


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Does anyone here know more about "Section 14"?
> 
> It appears to be very wide ranging way to stop protest.



Yes it is.

Section 12 and Section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986.
One deals with static protest, the other with processions/marches but other than that the wording/powers are the same.
Public Order Act 1986



> (1)If the senior police officer, having regard to the time or place at which and the circumstances in which any public assembly is being held or is intended to be held, reasonably believes that—
> 
> (a)it may result in serious public disorder, serious damage to property or serious disruption to the life of the community, or
> 
> ...



Of course the question of what is meant by serious public disorder, serious damage to property or serious disruption to the life of the community is left vague and open. The act was orginally brought in as a response to the orange order marches in NI and to give police there the power to stop them going down particular roads or into particular areas, as this tended to result in riots.
Since then, power creep has happened, and now it's used for more or less any protest. The arrests of the critical mass cyclists who went to ride past the olympic stadium on the evening of the opening ceremony of the 2012 olympics were arrested under s14 powers.

It's important to note that you can only be arrested under s12/s14 if you are aware that an order has been put in place. It's important that you do not accept anything from police as they will try to hand you notices that the order is in place and if you take one, you make yourself liable to arrest. Similarly, if you hear one is in place don't put it on social media or tell anyone else.
Obviously the police can and will arrest you under the s12/s14 order even if you haven't heard anything of it but it makes it hard to charge you for the offence if they can't show you knew.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

BigTom said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> Section 12 and Section 14 of the Public Order Act 1986.
> One deals with static protest, the other with processions/marches but other than that the wording/powers are the same.
> ...


but it seems to me from the law quote you had that this can't lawfully/legally be used to ban demonstrations, that they could say a maximum of 1 at junction 1 of the m1 but not a maximum of none anywhere within the metropolitan police district.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but it seems to me from the law quote you had that this can't lawfully/legally be used to ban demonstrations, that they could say a maximum of 1 at junction 1 of the m1 but not a maximum of none anywhere within the metropolitan police district.



I think that they can impose a maximum of zero protestors within a specific area. Whether they could do that within the whole of the met police area I don't know but they can certainly say "no-one in trafalgar square from 9pm 15/10 to xx:xx xx/xx". Again, no idea what the law says about how long a s12/s14 order lasts for, or if that's down to the police to decide.
It should be really pushing it to decide a demo is affecting the whole of the met police area, causing disruption to life of the whole of london or whatever. I don't really know who gets to decide or how to be fair.
It's a shitty law anyway and used way more widely than any reasonable person would consider justified based on the wording of the law and the situation it was brought in for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

BigTom said:


> I think that they can impose a maximum of zero protestors within a specific area. Whether they could do that within the whole of the met police area I don't know but they can certainly say "no-one in trafalgar square from 9pm 15/10 to xx:xx xx/xx". Again, no idea what the law says about how long a s12/s14 order lasts for, or if that's down to the police to decide.
> It should be really pushing it to decide a demo is affecting the whole of the met police area, causing disruption to life of the whole of london or whatever. I don't really know who gets to decide or how to be fair.
> It's a shitty law anyway and used way more widely than any reasonable person would consider justified based on the wording of the law and the situation it was brought in for.


seems to me the underlying assumption is that this is for demonstration management, so it can be restricted in location, duration and numbers. there's to my admittedly non-legal mind nothing that says 'no protest by anyone in the whole of london' - management, not prohibition


----------



## IC3D (Oct 15, 2019)




----------



## Libertad (Oct 15, 2019)

Does an application for a s12/s14 have to be made to a magistrate BigTom?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Does an application for a s12/s14 have to be made to a magistrate BigTom?


no, it's something the cops decide.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Does an application for a s12/s14 have to be made to a magistrate BigTom?



as PM said, just decided by a senior police officer, can be imposed immediately with no oversight until after the fact (and I doubt any oversight has ever happened, the critical mass ride arrests were surely a high point in the misuse of this law and I'm not aware of anything happening after that)


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> seems to me the underlying assumption is that this is for demonstration management, so it can be restricted in location, duration and numbers. there's to my admittedly non-legal mind nothing that says 'no protest by anyone in the whole of london' - management, not prohibition



Yeah, I'd agree with that, although I'd say that in practical terms, managing a demonstration by saying nobody is allowed to attend is the same thing as prohibition. Whether they could impose the order on an area as large as london I really don't know.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 15, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> BP to end Tate sponsorship after 26 years



Cheers - think that's probably what I was half-remembering earlier.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2019)

If the S14 is subsequently judged to have been unlawful, anyone nicked over it will have been unlawfully arrested, which with a decent brief can lead to a handsome pay-day


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

BigTom said:


> as PM said, just decided by a senior police officer, can be imposed immediately with no oversight until after the fact (and I doubt any oversight has ever happened, the critical mass ride arrests were surely a high point in the misuse of this law and I'm not aware of anything happening after that)



I find it quite staggering that peaceful protest can be stopped in this way without application to courts first.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

BigTom said:


> Yeah, I'd agree with that, although I'd say that in practical terms, managing a demonstration by saying nobody is allowed to attend is the same thing as prohibition. Whether they could impose the order on an area as large as london I really don't know.



Do you think this use of law may contravene European Convention on Human Rights?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Boooo




For non Londoners the protest artwork isn't blocking a road. This was done in front of Tate Modern and not in anyone's way.

Police aren't doing themselves any PR favours tearing this down.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Do you think this use of law may contravene European Convention on Human Rights?



I doubt it, only because it's been used so often for some decades and I'd have thought it would have been challenged on human rights grounds by now, if that were possible. It can be challenged in court and if found unlawful anyone arrested would be up for hefty compensation but I'm not aware of any previous challenges to this law (not a lawyer or anything, don't take that comment as meaning that I know there haven't been, I'm just not aware of it). Perhaps it's always been challenged and won in UK courts and never made it to ECHR (or the supreme court since that's been in place).


----------



## andysays (Oct 15, 2019)

Looks like the S14 order will be challenged


> Extinction Rebellion activists are continuing protests despite a London-wide ban by police. The group says it has taken initial steps towards a judicial review of the ban. Lawyers and politicians have also criticised the move...





> ...Extinction Rebellion said it had taken the "first steps" towards a judicial review of the Met's "disproportionate and unprecedented attempt to curtail peaceful protest. Our lawyers have delivered a 'Letter before Action' to the Met and asked for an immediate response," a statement read. Tobias Garnett, a human rights lawyer working for the movement, said the letter warned police to withdraw the order.





> He said the campaign group had given the police a deadline of 1430 BST to respond, or it would file a claim in the High Court. "We will be looking for an expedited hearing either today or tomorrow morning," he added. Speaking to the Victoria Derbyshire programme, Extinction Rebellion campaigner and former Met Police officer Paul Stephens said: "Police are being really sloppy with the law, and it won't stand up in court."


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2019)

when the filth start dragging around pacifist protestors from the provinces ,another section of society begin to understand that our coppery is not fit for purpose, despite the PR makeover. They despise use all.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2019)

The Met a bit defensive on Twitter:



"I want to be absolutely clear. This does not mean people are banned from protesting in London. Unless they are protesting about things we've decided are banned."

But as I said above I don't know how much difference this will make practically to a movement which has a core concept of knowingly and deliberately breaking the law. It will probably cut down on the number of people attending who aren't willing to get arrested, but that just means smaller protests in terms of turnout - it's not going to make a difference to the people who were always prepared for that anyway.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

Arrests now of last XR in Vauxhall Gardens now


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

Few more shots from around 6pm. Police been at this all day. Most people packed up and going. Arrests earlier I was told.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

Another shot of the arrest


----------



## 8ball (Oct 15, 2019)

More great work with the photos, Gramsci.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 15, 2019)

I dropped by after work Gramsci and snapped this man did you have DSLR kit I was prob next to you


----------



## teqniq (Oct 15, 2019)

I think you need look no further than this to see why the OB have acted now.

Extinction Rebellion banned from London by police after 'disrupting' City workers


----------



## IC3D (Oct 15, 2019)

I'm fairly normie by the standards of hippie xr but black casual gear I got followed within minutes of rocking up looking for faces ACAB


----------



## IC3D (Oct 15, 2019)

Only people I knew were earth first


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

IC3D said:


> I dropped by after work Gramsci and snapped this man did you have DSLR kit I was prob next to you



No I don't. I had my Lycra cycling gear on so pretty distinctive. 

Sorry to had missed you. Seems I've been at same demos as several posters but didn't know at time.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2019)

I did find today XR weren't so chatty as previously, Understandable given the plods actions yesterday.

I did get the who are you look this morning and asked why I was asking questions and felt it a bit tonight as well.

Ended up with a decent chat this evening in the end. 

Sad really but guess XR are going to be a bit more cagey about talking to people. 

The cops ensure this happens. 

They don't want XR to be popular.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 15, 2019)

I'm not that on board but Sat I went down with food and kids it was more chilled. They running ops on anon msg apps. I didnt pressure but people I talked to said it was pretty chaotic on these channels and I don't have the time rbh


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> No I don't. I had my Lycra cycling gear on so pretty distinctive.
> 
> Sorry to had missed you. Seems I've been at same demos as several posters but didn't know at time.


Wouldn't want to be accused of being in an Urban75 bloc now would we?


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 15, 2019)




----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

Marty1 said:


>




Encouraging.  Some clear desperation from capital.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The Met a bit defensive on Twitter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I had a look at the Mets "events" Twitter - MET have so many Twitter accounts - and I don't think Met are being defensive. I watched couple of the videos on Twitter of police commanders speaking. (I won't link any up here as its in bad taste to do so imo.)  There are a lot of videos on Mets Events Twitter feed. Which is clearly a PR feed for public and junior officers to keep their morale up.
Its the same performances I've seen from police commanders at local community meetings. I reckon they get training to do this.

The argument for section 14 is put in a way that the Met are doing this reluctantly. Spoken in a way that this is straight talking commonsense.

The phrase "we are always willing for people to come to us to discuss xyz (in this case protest)is phrase I've heard more than once. Its said in this ever so slightly intimidating way.

So no I don't think the Met are being defensive.

They think they are right.

The argument is going to be that this was proportionate. That they are always willing to be approached about lawful protest. And that this use of Section 14 is not unusual ( there is a video about that).

So if wet liberal human rights lawyers want to take the decision they made to court the Met I'm sure will be eager to defend themselves.

( from other news reports I've read the Met didn't inform Mayor of this use of Section 14. The videos make me feel they think they are entitled to judge protests without refering to elected politicians until after the fact. )

There is one video I watched where the police commander went on about what a great happy family the police are. How this protest stretched them but they all pulled together and supported each other to police this protest.

Police are like an army they are disciplined trained group of people with internal camaraderie and loyalty.

I think they will justify their actions to themselves individually and as a group. They will defend them.

Useful to have a look at this Twitter account to see how their minds work.

Be good lesson for XR to do it to see "sending love to police" is pointless.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 16, 2019)

I can't read your posts because they don't get to the point. Good luck.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

Speaking to an XR (or a "stinky reb" in my parlance - still waiting for that to catch on) at the pub last night who was with the protests all of last week.  He didn’t know about the pain compliance thing (or about the London-wide ban, but that’s a lot more recent tbf).

Makes me ponder about the strategy re: their branding and internal messaging, as well as their training re: what to expect police tactics-wise.

Then again, he thinks seriously cutting back on meat isn’t an environmental priority for those who want to help a little with their personal decisions, and also that photons have mass*, so while I have heaps of respect for his stance on actually doing something, I’m being tentative with my conclusions based on that conversation.

* - ok, perhaps not directly relevant to the topic


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 16, 2019)

Various reports of cops on Lambeth bridge demanding to see ID before they let people cross - yesterday and apparently continuing this morning. Have seen no info as to what power they claim to be using for this.

I did actually see a load on the pavement there yesterday on the whitehall end but had no reason to cross so didn't - I just wondered what they were all doing standing there.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2019)

The pink boat is back.

On Lambeth bridge with the plod asking me why I'm taking shots of the boat. Are you an XR?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2019)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2019)

The boat police come to have a look


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The boat police come to have a look View attachment 187261


Aquaplod


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Various reports of cops on Lambeth bridge demanding to see ID before they let people cross - yesterday and apparently continuing this morning. Have seen no info as to what power they claim to be using for this.
> 
> I did actually see a load on the pavement there yesterday on the whitehall end but had no reason to cross so didn't - I just wondered what they were all doing standing there.



They did ask me why I was taking photos of the boat. 

"Are you in XR"

My reply was "does it matter?"

One of them stood beside me whilst I took photos. One of the other three radioed in to say someone had stopped on the bridge with their bicycle.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2019)

Their is banner on other side of boat about climate emergency. But couldn't get close shot of that.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 16, 2019)

Notwithsanding that the police are there to protect money and property first and people second, the disruption of the finacial sector by XR was a game-changer but prior to this Johoinson tacitly gave them the nod with his dissmissive language regarding them.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 16, 2019)

They seem very keen on the "not letting people move around on arbitrary grounds without stating what power is being used" thing at the moment.



St Johns is where the Red Rebel Brigade are staying incidentally - yesterday they were apparently allowed to continue - Red Rebels walking tall at St John’s

I'm sure this will all get legally challenged and some months down the line may even be ruled unlawful but I have a feeling it won't stop them.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> They did ask me why I was taking photos of the boat.
> 
> "Are you in XR"
> 
> ...


Fucking numpties


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

I'm sort of tempted to show support in the manner of fucking with the police.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 16, 2019)

I was thinking about how, with a bit of organisation, it should be possible to gridlock the capital with small groups of people in different places. 

A group of 20 or so could block a key road for 10-20 minutes until police arrive, but then disperse before they have enough force to actually arrest. Then another group could block a different road/junction. They could play cat and mouse for days, if not weeks.

I'm sure it's been done, or planned at some point, so I'm doubtless wittering old news.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> They did ask me why I was taking photos of the boat.
> 
> "Are you in XR"
> 
> ...



Weird.  Especially from my perspective of you doing them a pretty valuable service with documenting so much that is happening.

Makes me wonder whether they've had some kind of threat from someone (in that case it *would* matter who you are).


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I was thinking about how, with a bit of organisation, it should be possible to gridlock the capital with small groups of people in different places.
> 
> A group of 20 or so could block a key road for 10-20 minutes until police arrive, but then disperse before they have enough force to actually arrest. Then another group could block a different road/junction. They could play cat and mouse for days, if not weeks.
> 
> I'm sure it's been done, or planned at some point, so I'm doubtless wittering old news.


Go for it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 16, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I was thinking about how, with a bit of organisation, it should be possible to gridlock the capital with small groups of people in different places.
> 
> A group of 20 or so could block a key road for 10-20 minutes until police arrive, but then disperse before they have enough force to actually arrest. Then another group could block a different road/junction. They could play cat and mouse for days, if not weeks.
> 
> I'm sure it's been done, or planned at some point, so I'm doubtless wittering old news.



It has surprised me that XR has concentrated on the centre of town. Block the junction of Warwick Road with Cromwell Road for 30 minutes during the morning rush-hour and you'll bring most of West London to a halt for the rest of the day. Must be a few other key junctions that if all blocked will gridlock the whole of Central London.


----------



## chilango (Oct 16, 2019)

Or XR could adopt Reading Borough Council's very effective traffic gridlocking techniques....


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2019)

Simultaneously breaking down in rotherithe and blackwall tunnel even for 10 minutes would be car nage,  would send poor delivery drivers into therapy


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It has surprised me that XR has concentrated on the centre of town. Block the junction of Warwick Road with Cromwell Road for 30 minutes during the morning rush-hour and you'll bring most of West London to a halt for the rest of the day. Must be a few other key junctions that if all blocked will gridlock the whole of Central London.


there are. but the people who know where they are have thus far proved reluctant to tell me.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

Anyone know what happened to Roger Hallam? he was due in isleworth court 14th October?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

just found this:

Extinction Rebellion co-founder on trial over attempted drone disruption at Heathrow airport


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> just found this:
> 
> Extinction Rebellion co-founder on trial over attempted drone disruption at Heathrow airport



Strange article. Doesn't say what happened other than he appeared in court, via video-link.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

And this, which indicates Hallam could be inside until trial next year:

Extinction Rebellion co-founder from Wandsworth faces trial over Heathrow disruption


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2019)

8ball said:


> photons have mass


They do while they're moving.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 16, 2019)

Crispy said:


> They do while they're moving.



"Science bitch"


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

Roger Hallam is surely a political prisoner?  i wonder how he will respond to his circumstances?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

Crispy said:


> They do while they're moving.



Arguably, kinda, in the "University bar pub sophistry" sense.
(for less physicsy persons - this is in the sense that a tennis ball's mass changes when you kick it, and I'm not talking about rubbing a bit of the felt off)

But regardless, he didn't mean it that way.

Also, seen many stationary photons recently?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Roger Hallam is surely a political prisoner?  i wonder how he will respond to his circumstances?


philosophically, no doubt, as he is in his own small way fucking shit up in the belly of the beast


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

Once your mass becomes infinite you are moving faster than an average tennis ball in flight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Once your mass becomes infinite you are moving faster than an average tennis ball in flight.


you've been watching apocalypse now too much


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Once your mass becomes infinite you are moving faster than an average tennis ball in flight.



I know I need to lose a bit of weight, but that extrapolation was uncalled for.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

Not a remark regarding your size 8ball, more a general observation.
Besides, in my minds eye you are a gaunt 11 stones (old money)


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Not a remark regarding your size 8ball, more a general *observation*.
> Besides, in my minds eye you are a gaunt 11 stones (old money)



Old money.  Yeah, last time I weighed that much we were probably using pounds, shillings and pence. 

Also, sustained* observation of anything at infinite mass would not be possible because the Lorentz transformation can no longer put you into the object's frame of reference.** 

* - although if you got close everything would be a bit sustained due to time dilation effect***
** - at least, I think this was considered correct when I last looked
*** - to a second observer, maybe - my head hurts now


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

my pal goes on about 'sticks of infinite length' and general relativity..  He loses me once he gets 'round to Lorentz n stuff.

best  leave science to the scientists eh?


----------



## Libertad (Oct 16, 2019)

Good work team.


----------



## Idaho (Oct 16, 2019)

8ball said:


> Also, seen many stationary photons recently?


At the moment of perception, they are stationary. 

Good old Zeno's paradox


----------



## Libertad (Oct 16, 2019)

Love this shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Love this shit.


#urbanatitsbest


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

reading here it looks as though anyone with an opinion bout owt can simply state it, regardless of qualification or intellect.  Leave science to the boffins has always been my motto..


----------



## Idaho (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> reading here it looks as though anyone with an opinion bout owt can simply state it, regardless of qualification or intellect.  Leave science to the boffins has always been my motto..


The very essence of the scientific method is that personal prestige should not be a factor. The theory should match experimental data.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

every forum has one

In a race, the quickest runner can never overtake the slowest, since the pursuer must first reach the point whence the pursued started, so that the slower must always hold a lead.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

That has floored the lot of yer


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> every forum has one
> 
> In a race, the quickest runner can never overtake the slowest, since the pursuer must first reach the point whence the pursued started, so that the slower must always hold a lead.


in the marathon the quickest runner never needs to overtake the slowest as the faster runners start before the halt and lame


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> in the marathon the quickest runner never needs to overtake the slowest as the faster runners start before the halt and lame


i think we have them on the ropes Pickman's model.  They should have known better than to tackle philosophers


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2019)

You do not fight with honour sir!


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> just found this:
> 
> Extinction Rebellion co-founder on trial over attempted drone disruption at Heathrow airport


I think this a good thing. Roger the martyr unable to forge plans, others who are less mad take up the helm.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

TopCat said:


> I think this a good thing. Roger the martyr unable to forge plans, others who are less mad take up the helm.


he should be spending time on his prison writings which will be binned on his release


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 16, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They seem very keen on the "not letting people move around on arbitrary grounds without stating what power is being used" thing at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



St John's have said that the police didn't say this, mind you, and I saw the Red Rebels at Trafalgar Square this afternoon, so eh.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2019)

More pigs than protestors


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2019)

News building at London Bridge


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> News building at London Bridge


What news?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 187286 View attachment 187285	 More pigs than protestors



That vinyl looks flammable.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 16, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What news?



At this stage it's still building.
It's just a fact.

It needs to build a bit more before it can become a news.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

im still inclined towards the view that XR might be the beginning of something wonderful.	Numbers of new people, prepared to risk a great deal, standing up for values far more human than anything that capital could ever offer,  just is very stirring.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> im still inclined towards the view that XR might be the beginning of something wonderful.	Numbers of new people, prepared to risk a great deal, standing up for values far more human than anything that capital could ever offer,  just is very stirring.


Faith


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2019)

TopCat said:


> What news?


 News international place


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

Faith in people TC.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> News international place


That would be ironic and very poignant.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> im still inclined towards the view that XR might be the beginning of something wonderful.	Numbers of new people, prepared to risk a great deal, standing up for values far more human than anything that capital could ever offer,  just is very stirring.



Becoming more and more attracted to them. There are so many local groups, the (inaccurate, it seems) tweet about the church came from XR Guildford, there is an XR Godalming, that's 4 miles away, there is also Haslemere and Farnham that I know of, seems they they are in every town, a very popular movement. Went for a bike ride with Godalming XR a few weeks ago and they were very friendly and committed, if a little naive. Really considering going along, every Wednesday night in local church. Not tonight though, got a nice tea lined up


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

redcogs said:


> im still inclined towards the view that XR might be the beginning of something wonderful.	Numbers of new people, prepared to risk a great deal, standing up for values far more human than anything that capital could ever offer,  just is very stirring.


Yeh well it's very sadly too little too late as anyone watching with trepidation the news on the arctic methane will agree. When a massive fart of submarine methane happens, as the arctic oceans warm, it'll be "game over"


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh well it's very sadly too little too late as anyone watching with trepidation the news on the arctic methane will agree. When a massive fart of submarine methane happens, as the arctic oceans warm, it'll be "game over"


Expand or link to big fart?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Expand or link to big fart?


Short answer: there are many gigatons of methane frozen at the bottom of the arctic ocean. Great bubbles of methane are being seen by researchers up there and there is much concern about a century's worth of greenhouse gases emerging in just a few years should the frozen methane defrost.

Arctic methane emissions - Wikipedia


----------



## redcogs (Oct 16, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh well it's very sadly too little too late as anyone watching with trepidation the news on the arctic methane will agree. When a massive fart of submarine methane happens, as the arctic oceans warm, it'll be "game over"



If it is too late there is no proper case for political action, but a massive argument for simply saying fuck it, we are all dead, so lets get stoned and pissed and shag ourselves into oblivion.   So many are probably into that despairing hopelessness already that you could be right.  But i don't believe that you believe that anyway - you hold on to anarchism don't you? Why bother if its game over?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 16, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 187286 View attachment 187285	 More pigs than protestors



Territorial Support Group eh. That's the real nasty plod. I'd be worried if I saw them show up.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2019)

Photos from today



























In photos: Extinction Rebellion activists defy protest ban and pack out Trafalgar Square, 16th Oct 2019


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Photos from today
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great photos.

Really glad to see XR do this.

Its made the police look stupid.

After what I saw at Vauxhall Gardens yesterday it looked the the Met had managed to stop the protest.

What XR have shown is that if you have the numbers the police back off.

Be interesting to see what happens on Saturday. 

I'm going on the anti Brexit March and looks like XR will be in central London at same time.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Photos from today
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> , in the face of the attempt by the Metropolitan Police to silence people, with a London wide ban on our peaceful assembly?”



So hopefully XR leaders won't be training new recruits to " Send love out to police" or teach them to tell people "That the police just have a job to do and feed their families like the rest of us"

Things I've seen and heard.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2019)

The XR planned protest on Saturday which coincides with Peoples Vote March is going to be interesting.

I've chatted to a lot of XR from other parts of country and I'd say they are all Remain. We did get into this in chats. Official XR position is the the Brexit issue doesn't matter. Climate Emergency is the issue. So XR does not officially have view on Brexit. Unlike Green Party which is Remain.

I had long chat with XR from Manchester. I said to them why don't XR just come out and say they want Green Socialism. Green New Deal is supported by Labour party. I said most XR I'd met came across as Green Lefties. So why not drop the "Beyond Politics" banners. 

They replied that basically I was right. But they didn't want to do this as it may put some people off. That Labour party under Corbyn, despite his support and Labour party agreeing Green New Deal, was a "divisive" party. 

So its this , in my mind, bizarre, seeking for the centre ground mythical person, who supports action against climate change. 

Which in reality is not the substantial make up of XR supporters. 

I also think the leaders like Hallam have some really dubious politics. As I've said before they are Green Nationalists with undemocratic side to it.

I do think if XR is to develop its going to have to openly have these issues out. Make some kind of democratic structure. 

I'm afraid several of the XR people I chatted to were naively under the impression that  "Peoples Assemblies" are democratic. They aren't.


----------



## toblerone3 (Oct 17, 2019)

Extinction Reb0ellion at the You Tube headquarters in Kings Cross today.  Helicopters flying overhead all morning. More police than protestors.  Are the regular police in control or is it MI5?.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Oct 17, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 187285	 More pigs than protestors



Thugs in uniforms


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Extinction Reb0ellion at the You Tube headquarters in Kings Cross today.  Helicopters flying overhead all morning. More police than protestors.  Are the regular police in control or is it MI5?.



Sounds ominous.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 187286 View attachment 187285	 More pigs than protestors



And parked in a loading only bay


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 17, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Extinction Reb0ellion at the You Tube headquarters in Kings Cross today.  Helicopters flying overhead all morning. More police than protestors.  Are the regular police in control or is it MI5?.



If the Territorial Support Group are out, MI5 will be heavily involved.


----------



## LDC (Oct 17, 2019)

toblerone3 said:


> Extinction Reb0ellion at the You Tube headquarters in Kings Cross today.  Helicopters flying overhead all morning. More police than protestors.  Are the regular police in control or is it MI5?.



Dickhead.


----------



## LDC (Oct 17, 2019)

Dillinger4 said:


> If the Territorial Support Group are out, MI5 will be heavily involved.



You too.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 17, 2019)

no u


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

Dillinger4 said:


> If the Territorial Support Group are out, MI5 will be heavily involved.


That doesn't follow.


----------



## ffsear (Oct 17, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

redcogs said:


> If it is too late there is no proper case for political action, but a massive argument for simply saying fuck it, we are all dead, so lets get stoned and pissed and shag ourselves into oblivion.   So many are probably into that despairing hopelessness already that you could be right.  But i don't believe that you believe that anyway - you hold on to anarchism don't you? Why bother if its game over?


Force of habit


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 17, 2019)

ffsear said:


>




There's a bigger version of that video on this link - Clashes between XR and commuters during Tube protests - updates


----------



## kenny g (Oct 17, 2019)

God knows why they chose Canning Town. Makes me highly suspicious TBH.


----------



## maomao (Oct 17, 2019)

kenny g said:


> God knows why they chose Canning Town. Makes me highly suspicious TBH.


Suspicious of what? Lot of possible reasons. It's a big entry point to the tube and DLR from suburban bus routes. Could also be that the cops got to City Airport first so the protestors went to the nearest big station. A lot of the travellers there are going to be very low paid workers in insecure jobs on long commutes and are unlikely to have patience with them though. I'm on that line at 6ish every morning (from Stratford) and I wouldn't want to start a fight on it.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Commuters turned on XR protestors this morning on the tube at East London this morning.



> Angry commuters have pulled Extinction Rebellion protesters from the top of a Tube as activists disrupted services across London



Furious commuters drag Extinction Rebellion protester from top of Tube



> They were then seen beating the campaigners up before the pair were arrested by police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

kenny g said:


> God knows why they chose Canning Town. Makes me highly suspicious TBH.


junction for dlr and jubilee line, bloody stupid thing to do, mind, but can understand their targeting logic. tho it would have helped if they'd done a recce and judged the possible mood of the people they intended to delay before the action.


----------



## marshall (Oct 17, 2019)

Bit surprised commuter v protestor clashes haven't been a constant throughout this whole thing, commuters have the numbers if push really comes to shove.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 17, 2019)

maomao said:


> A lot of the travellers there are going to be very low paid workers in insecure jobs on long commutes and are unlikely to have patience with them though..


Precisely. Anyone with any sense would not target canning town station early in the morning.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

Not a good look.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 17, 2019)

West Ham is a station I use early quite regularly and it is like an army on the march at 6.20 am.


----------



## maomao (Oct 17, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Precisely. Anyone with any sense would not target canning town station early in the morning.


They don't seem overburdened with sense tbh. Hope they didn't get beaten too badly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

they should have tried this at hampstead

they might have been showered with pastries instead

tho they might have faced the terrible humphing wrath of liberals


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

I'd have to have the logic of targeting public transport explained to me, tbh.


----------



## alex_ (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I'd have to have the logic of targeting public transport explained to me, tbh.



electrically lowered ( therefore potentially zero carbon ) public transport


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

alex_ said:


> electrically lowered ( therefore potentially zero carbon ) public transport


I'm just saying that my understanding of 'green' transport aspiration is to transfer as many folk as possible onto public transport? Seems odd, then, to deliberately seek to target those systems?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I'd have to have the logic of targeting public transport explained to me, tbh.


islagiatt


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 17, 2019)

I can't comprehend the logic behind targetting working folk on public transport but if you stomp on someone's head because you're a bit late for work then you're an arsehole.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> I'd have to have the logic of targeting public transport explained to me, tbh.



Disruption.  And awareness.  You’re not in less shit from the effects of climate change just cos you get the tube.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Disruption.  And awareness.  You’re not in less shit from the effects of climate change just cos you get the tube.



WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> islagiatt


in Richmond.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!



That really your best this morning?  More coffee required.

Fwiw I agree it’s not a good strategy, it’s far from their only iffy strategy, but I understand them well enough to know that this will be their logic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!


it'll have worked, as there's nothing like giving someone a good kicking in the morning to liven you up for the day


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Btw, I’ve just asked someone fairly influential in XR to check, just in case...

Edit: all I have so far is that huge numbers of XR members didn’t want this particular action to happen (not verified directly by my contact, but is part of the discussion I have butted into)


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> That really your best this morning?  More coffee required.
> 
> Fwiw I agree it’s not a good strategy, it’s far from their only iffy strategy, but I understand them well enough to know that this will be their logic.



Just sitting down for first coffee. 
...but there's more than a whiff of  "wake up sheeple" in this kinda stunt. Intended or not.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

One thing; I don't think they'll try this tactic again next time.


----------



## Plumdaff (Oct 17, 2019)

Haven't seen anyone actually in support of the action at Canning Town this morning....


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

and it's given vermin cunts like this fella the opportunity to dog whistle his support of the kicking (whilst weasel wording it so that he could claim that really meant the well-meaning folk who stopped the kicking).


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Btw, I’ve just asked someone fairly influential in XR to check, just in case...
> 
> Edit: all I have so far is that huge numbers of XR members didn’t want this particular action to happen (not verified directly by my contact, but is part of the discussion I have butted into)


it's happened now and i wouldn't be surprised it'll be what this 'october rebellion' is most remembered for


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> and it's given vermin cunts like this fella the opportunity to dog whistle his support of the kicking (whilst weasel wording it so that he could claim that really meant the well-meaning folk who stopped the kicking).
> 
> View attachment 187332


to be fair it's fairly fucking explicit so i don't think the dog whistle thing really applies

'this response in london has my full support' can't really mean anything else bar 'well done chaps for giving the green oik a bashing'


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> to be fair it's fairly fucking explicit so i don't think the dog whistle thing really applies


worse, then.
I really think XR have blown it with this tactic.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Just sitting down for first coffee.
> ...but there's more than a whiff of  "wake up sheeple" in this kinda stunt. Intended or not.



Yeah, guess there’s s a whiff of it with any major awareness-raising stunt involving large numbers of people trying to shuffle somewhere they don’t want to be while trying to remain as oblivious as possible for personal sanity reasons.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

No matter how uniform the beliefs and attitudes of a crowd, there will always be some within it that get an idea to do something outside of that crowd’s norms. The action at Canning Town looks like it was done by a handful of individuals, not XR en masse.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's happened now and i wouldn't be surprised it'll be what this 'october rebellion' is most remembered for



Speaking to a mate the other night* it seems like a lot of their decision-making processes have issues.

* - I’m not mentioning photons again


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> worse, then.
> I really think XR have blown it with this tactic.


very much so. it's so inept, anyone could have seen people would be angry.

rather than attacking the public transport network they should have stuck to blocking roads.


----------



## LDC (Oct 17, 2019)

The lack of control of demos and actions and messages is going to be an issue with XR's popularity and growth.

How (can or should you?) stop random people and small groups doing actions that are counter-productive?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> No matter how uniform the beliefs and attitudes of a crowd, there will always be some within it that get an idea to do something outside of that crowd’s norms. The action at Canning Town looks like it was done by a handful of individuals, not XR en masse.


Yer reckon?
They won't claim responsibility? Blame it on rogue elements?
Even bigger loss of cred.


----------



## YouSir (Oct 17, 2019)

marshall said:


> Bit surprised commuter v protestor clashes haven't been a constant throughout this whole thing, commuters have the numbers if push really comes to shove.



In London at least people can generally navigate stuff in places like Waterloo or Trafalgar Square. Anyone who does those trips regularly knows to walk around/take different bus/tube/whatever if there are delays for any reason. Early morning DLR not so much, going to be the only viable route for lots of people. Hard to think of a worse place and time to target.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The lack of control of demos and actions and messages is going to be an issue with XR's popularity and growth.
> 
> How (can or should you?) stop random people and small groups doing actions that are counter-productive?



It certainly is, and has been an issue for a while.  You can’t be an entirely decentralised broad church agreeing on only a couple of fundamental things AND be decentralised in a manner where individual actions can be discussed but not vetoed AND be consistent and coherent the whole time.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

> Extinction Rebellion co-founder Clare Farrell defended the Tube action, saying "the public, I don't think, realise quite how serious this situation is"



BBC news story


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The lack of control of demos and actions and messages is going to be an issue with XR's popularity and growth.
> 
> How (can or should you?) stop random people and small groups doing actions that are counter-productive?


what i would do is to put on the website a summary of why some actions are good and resonate with the public and some are bad and drain support. i would also encourage a debate within the movement about what constitutes a good action, both in terms of how it goes and how it's portrayed. in addition, i would encourage discussions about personal safety on actions, because it's one thing to be nicked by the cops and quite another to risk being kicked to death (which must be fairly easy for a crowd to do inadvertantly). that ought to stop some of the more stupid actions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> BBC news story


that's really fucking stupid


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> It certainly is, and has been an issue for a while.  You can’t be an entirely decentralised broad church agreeing on only a couple of fundamental things AND be decentralised in a manner where individual actions can be discussed but not vetoed AND be consistent and coherent the whole time.


So you're saying that they're going to disown these protestors?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> BBC news story


Climate protesters dragged from Tube train


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So you're saying that they're going to disown these protestors?



good luck with disowning them


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

It's the logical result of putting moralism ahead of more material analysis.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> No matter how uniform the beliefs and attitudes of a crowd, there will always be some within it that get an idea to do something outside of that crowd’s norms. The action at Canning Town looks like it was done by a handful of individuals, not XR en masse.



It was stated on the radio this morning (6 o'clock news) that XR intended to shut down the tube. That did sound like a silly thing to do, but they justified it in that it would draw attention to the whole protest. However AFAIK XR actions are not sent down from above, it is just individuals taking action(s), so some will be more useful than others. 

Choosing Canning Town doesn't seem too clever, a more obscure station (like St John's Wood) would have shut down a line and wouldn't have had hoards of people ready to tear them down and duff 'em up...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's the logical result of putting moralism ahead of more material analysis.


 yeh


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> It's the logical result of putting moralism ahead of more material analysis.


devoid of class consciousness


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It was stated on the radio this morning (6 o'clock news) that XR intended to shut down the tube. That did sound like a silly thing to do, but they justified it in that it would draw attention to the whole protest. However AFAIK XR actions are not sent down from above, it is just individuals taking action(s), so some will be more useful than others.
> 
> Choosing Canning Town doesn't seem too clever, a more obscure station (like St John's Wood) would have shut down a line and wouldn't have had hoards of people ready to tear them down and duff 'em up...


if it was necessary to do a tube action they should have done something to the waterloo and city line, which would have pissed off city workers but so many people are ambivalent about city workers anyway that that wouldn't have been such an own goal as this stunt is proving.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> devoid of class consciousness


devoid of political nous in every way!

if they'd taken a walk around canning town they'd have seen a great constituency with whom they haven't really engaged, the residents of the keir hardie estate. and this isn't the way to introduce yourself if you want to make a positive impression.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> devoid of political nous in every way!
> 
> if they'd taken a walk around canning town they'd have seen a great constituency with whom they haven't really engaged, the residents of the keir hardie estate. and this isn't the way to introduce yourself if you want to make a positive impression.


the most powerful clip I've seen was the (peaceful) assertive questioning of the hand-glue women asking her where she'd come from and how she'd got to Canning Town. Damning stuff.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

It illustrates neatly the limits of XRs current strategy.

You've got everyone's attention.

Now what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> the most powerful clip I've seen was the (peaceful) assertive questioning of the hand-glue women asking her where she'd come from and how she'd got to Canning Town. Damning stuff.


i can't watch all i'd like to (work ) but the people on the train and that man getting pulled down and getting a hiding: and the xr there having the gall to effectively say 'we're doing this for you', it would have me spitting blood (both for the delay and the substitutionism)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> It illustrates neatly the limits of XRs current strategy.
> 
> You've got everyone's attention.
> 
> Now what?


now piss everyone off


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So you're saying that they're going to disown these protestors?



Well, Ms. Newman...

But it’s a decision they’re going to have to make at some point.  Or at lots of points, really.

One problem with never really being able to veto something (so long as it falls in line with some very basic aims), is that it compromises your ability to really take responsibility for anything.  So when you get to any negotiating tables, what bargaining chips do you have?


----------



## free spirit (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Btw, I’ve just asked someone fairly influential in XR to check, just in case...
> 
> Edit: all I have so far is that huge numbers of XR members didn’t want this particular action to happen (not verified directly by my contact, but is part of the discussion I have butted into)


I've seen mention of 70% against the action in an internal XR poll, but XR based on decentralised afinity groups who're able to carry out any actions as long as they're in line with their 10 core principles (or whatever they're called).

Same problems as with previous similar movements, where eventually a small group decide to do something counter productive that overshadows everything else that's happened and becomes what the protest is remembered for, resulting in rapid loss of public support and activists disassociating themselves rapidly until the movement implodes.

The other key problem with XR is that they have no solutions. Any organisation that had solutions would not target the very electricly powered public transport that's got to be a major part in any package of measures to actually get us to net zero carbon.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It was stated on the radio this morning (6 o'clock news) that XR intended to shut down the tube. That did sound like a silly thing to do, but they justified it in that it would draw attention to the whole protest. However AFAIK XR actions are not sent down from above, it is just individuals taking action(s), so some will be more useful than others.
> 
> Choosing Canning Town doesn't seem too clever, a more obscure station (like St John's Wood) would have shut down a line and wouldn't have had hoards of people ready to tear them down and duff 'em up...



Perhaps the tube protestors were expecting a round of applause from commuters?

Either way, I think XR may have misjudged the length of their protests against public sentiment.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

ffsear said:


>









At Canning Town! 

Silly cunts should have stayed at home in Knightsbridge.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Perhaps the tube protestors were expecting a round of applause from commuters?
> 
> Either way, I think XR may have misjudged the length of their protests against public sentiment.



They've mainly misjudged the public's commitment to an unstable system.  There is a degree of romantic fantasy about a whole load of people suddenly becoming aware of a serious situation, dropping whatever they're doing and joining them.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> They've mainly misjudged the public's commitment to an unstable system.


They've misjudged the entire program and the wheels are coming off.

Stopping regular folk from getting to work is going to kill them.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2019)

The XR press release makes it clear it is "affinity groups" - Disruption of Tube Services beginning 17 October: Information for London Underground Staff - Extinction Rebellion and there are XR accounts publicly disagreeing with it and being retweeted by XRLondon eg



Note that the press release was from Tuesday; were there warnings for commuters from TFL?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 17, 2019)

tbf, in April they were lauded by many here and elsewhere when they did the same to a DLR at Canary Wharf.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The XR press release makes it clear it is "affinity groups"


Yeak, ok!


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> They've mainly misjudged the public's commitment to an unstable system.  There is a degree of romantic fantasy about a whole load of people suddenly becoming aware of a serious situation, dropping whatever they're doing and joining them.



The fervent faith of the missionary.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> tbf, in April they were lauded by many here and elsewhere when they did the same to a DLR at Canary Wharf.


Of course they were. People here are happy to see office workers inconvenienced and caused hardship to earn a living. When it's PFWC folk at Canning Town it's a different matter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

London Newsletter: Day 10 - Extinction Rebellion

it's rather emetic


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

The aim should surely be not stopping workers going to work. But getting the workers themselves to stop going to work.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> The fervent faith of the missionary.



Well, the main new thing they have going on is that they don't refer to these sleeping saviours as "the working class".


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> They've misjudged the entire program and the wheels are coming off.
> Stopping regular folk from getting to work is going to kill them.



It might well do.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Well, the main new thing they have going on is that they don't refer to these sleeping saviours as "the working class".



They still are the working class though, and thus the people who can actually halt capitalism. Whether you refer to them or not.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> They still are the working class though, and thus the people who can actually halt capitalism. Whether you refer to them or not.



Hallelujah, brother.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> They still are the working class though ...


That's all that matters, comrade.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Hallelujah, brother.



Inaccurate.

It's not a matter of faith, or belief or waiting for some glorious day.

It's a cynical look at the cycle of reproduction of capital.

Of course if you aim isn't to halt/abolish/replace capitalism, but merely to persuade it to operate in different ways then other strategies are available.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> It might well do.


Well the one that got dragged off the roof of the train got a good hiding as well. 

This is a game changer. Watch the posh twats, who can afford to take time off work to sit on trains and bridges, melt away now.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> That's all that matters, comrade.



Well, yeah, it is.

No getting around that.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Of course if you aim isn't to halt/abolish/replace capitalism, but merely to persuade it to operate in different ways then other strategies are available.



“Hallelujah” is inaccurate. 

But yeah, XR as an organisation have no class analysis going on.  Some members do, but I’d go with “small
minority”.


----------



## Santino (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well the one that got dragged off the roof of the train got a good hiding as well.
> 
> This is a game changer. Watch the posh twats, who can afford to take time off work to sit on trains and bridges, melt away now.


Just heard that Greta Thunberg's caught a plane home and enrolled in sixth form.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Well, yeah, it is.
> 
> No getting around that.


Hopefully it'll be the working class who finally put a bullet in the head of this fucking nonsense once and for all then.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Hopefully it'll be the working class who finally put a bullet in the head of this fucking nonsense once and for all then.



What nonsense?

You all seem to be missing the big "if".

_*If *you want to halt/abolish/replace capitalism...._

Presumably you don't. You won't be the only one.

The task for folk like you then is coming up with ways to make bosses act against their own material interests.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Santino said:


> Just heard that Greta Thunberg's caught a plane home and enrolled in sixth form.


That revolting child always had a very limited shelf life.

The backlash is in full swing now.


----------



## Santino (Oct 17, 2019)

Great stuff.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Santino said:


> Great stuff.


How dare you. HOW DARE YOU!


----------



## Santino (Oct 17, 2019)

It's heartening to see bitter middle-aged men enraged by a teenager.


----------



## LDC (Oct 17, 2019)

Let's also not fall into the trap of giving this thing too much importance in the grand scheme of things. Dumb things happen the whole time in political movements, especially ones that grow rapidly.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Santino said:


> It's heartening to see bitter middle-aged men enraged by a teenager.



Isn’t that largely the point of them?
Wouldn’t call Spy ‘bitter’ myself, mind.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Santino said:


> ... enraged ...


----------



## Santino (Oct 17, 2019)

No, I'm not angry, I'm laughing! Listen to me, ha ha ha! LAUGHING!


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

It’s not a matter of who disowns what.  It’s just the nature of mass action that crowd action depends on shared sets of social norms, a common agreement regarding aims and the process of self-categorisation into the in-group, with a corresponding shared understanding as to who the out-group is.  This means that spontaneous actions are either accepted as representing that shared norm and get picked up and amplified, or they are rejected and extinguished.  But that doesn’t stop the latter category of act from happening at all, it just stops them becoming systematic.  This Canning Town protest has all the hallmarks of a spontaneous action that was rejected as being unrepresentative of the crowd’s shared set of norms and thus not amplified further.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Santino said:


> ... angry ...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> It’s not a matter of who disowns what.  It’s just the nature of mass action that crowd action depends on shared sets of social norms, a common agreement regarding aims and the process of self-categorisation into the in-group, with a corresponding shared understanding as to who the out-group is.  This means that spontaneous actions are either accepted as representing that shared norm and get picked up and amplified, or they are rejected and extinguished.  But that doesn’t stop the latter category of act from happening at all, it just stops them becoming systematic.  This Canning Town protest has all the hallmarks of a spontaneous action that was rejected as being unrepresentative of the crowd’s shared set of norms and thus not amplified further.



I’ve arranged a meeting with the media so you can explain the nuances to them.  Though I’d probably go with smaller words.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> This Canning Town protest has all the hallmarks of a spontaneous action that was rejected as being unrepresentative of the crowd’s shared set of norms and thus not amplified further.


It didn't actually seem spontaneous, tbf. One of the guys here was there and apparently there were loads of them trying to get on the train roof. The video just makes it look like one guy. It was organised.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> The video just makes it look like one guy.



The video shows two guys holding a banner, which was grabbed off them first, one guy was pulled off the roof, a commuter got up there, chased the other guy, who he then pushed off.


----------



## LDC (Oct 17, 2019)

Not mine, forwarded to someone who showed me....


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Isn’t that largely the point of them?
> Wouldn’t call Spy ‘bitter’ myself, mind.


he's more mild


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> This is a game changer. Watch the posh twats, who can afford to take time off work to sit on trains and bridges, melt away now.



Well at least some of them will be able to claim their expenses off XR HQ.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It didn't actually seem spontaneous, tbf. One of the guys here was there and apparently there were loads of them trying to get on the train roof. The video just makes it look like one guy. It was organised.


plus they had a camera person


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> This Canning Town protest has all the hallmarks of a spontaneous action that was rejected as being unrepresentative of the crowd’s shared set of norms and thus not amplified further.



Hardly spontaneous, the protestors came prepared with a ladder to access the carriage roof.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> plus they had a camera person



Three people!
That's one more than you need for a conspiracy!


----------



## Santino (Oct 17, 2019)

Why hasn't the culprit been identified and had his last decade of social media usage ransacked yet?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Watch the posh twats, who can afford to take time off work to sit on trains and bridges, melt away now.



New definition of 'posh':  paid holidays.

+1000 Wolfie Smith points awarded to Spymaster.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> New definition of 'posh':  paid holidays.


Trust funds


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not mine, forwarded to someone who showed me....
> 
> View attachment 187342


Maybe there should be a poll asking if it's OK for a mob of gammons to kick the fuck out of the peaceful protester on the tube. Actually, I think I can guess the response


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Maybe there should be a poll asking if it's OK for a mob of gammons to kick the fuck out of the peaceful protester on the tube. Actually, I think I can guess the response



Gammons have become a lot more diverse since I last looked.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Trust funds



No, when they keep paying you for a period when you're away from work - they call that a 'paid holiday'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Maybe there should be a poll asking if it's OK for a mob of gammons to kick the fuck out of the peaceful protester on the tube. Actually, I think I can guess the response


i'm not persuaded that's really what we saw


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

It's nice to resolve that old spat over whether public transport users are inherently more civilised than drivers, though.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not persuaded that's really what we saw


It's that famous firm The Canning Town Gammons.

Millwall and the ICF shit themselves when they turn up.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Hardly spontaneous, the protestors came prepared with a ladder to access the carriage roof.


It is spontaneous in the context of crowd action.  They were not directed to do it by some kind of crowd authority, so it is spontaneous or emergent behaviour.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm not persuaded that's really what we saw


The police seem to think differently


> The commuters who dragged Extinction Rebellion protesters are being investigated by the police as it emerged on the of the activists is a Buddhist teacher.
> 
> British Transport Police have made eight arrests after protesters climbed on top of roofs of Underground carriages on Thursday morning.
> 
> But those on the platform blocked from going to work who "took matters into their own hands" are being sought by police, who said their actions were "unacceptable".


 Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters face police investigation as one activist revealed as Buddhist teacher - latest news



> The two protesters were then seen being attacked on the platform by the campaigners before they were arrested.
> 
> A man who was livestreaming the incident for the Extinction Rebellion Facebook page was beaten up by the crowd before some commuters helped him.


Furious commuters drag Extinction Rebellion protesters from top of Tube


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> It's nice to resolve that old spat over whether public transport users are inherently more civilised than drivers, though.


let's see:

using initiative - check
happy to work on own - check
or as part of a team - check

you never see drivers working as part of a team


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> The police seem to think differently
> 
> Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters face police investigation as one activist revealed as Buddhist teacher - latest news


they don't mention a mob of gammons


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> let's see:
> 
> using initiative - check
> happy to work on own - check
> ...



Are you a driver?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It didn't actually seem spontaneous, tbf. One of the guys here was there and apparently there were loads of them trying to get on the train roof. The video just makes it look like one guy. It was organised.


Even a group of 50 would be tiny compared with the XR crowd.  It would still be emergent behaviour that got rejected by the wider crowd as being unrepresentative of the crowd social norm and thus not adopted and replicated more widely.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they don't mention a mob of gammons


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they don't mention a mob of gammons



I'm confused - it reads like the investigation was kicked off because one of the guys on the train was a Buddhist.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well the one that got dragged off the roof of the train got a good hiding as well.
> 
> This is a game changer. Watch the posh twats, who can afford to take time off work to sit on trains and bridges, melt away now.


Would you have joined in the beating had you been there?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


>



It's cool, we all see words that aren't there sometimes.
Maybe you're craving bacon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Are you a driver?


no


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> they don't mention a mob of gammons


Of course they were gammons. It dioesn't fit the narrative and preconceived prejudices for them to be anything else. Working class folk would never do something like this!


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no



That explains your confusion.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> I’ve arranged a meeting with the media so you can explain the nuances to them.  Though I’d probably go with smaller words.


The media have a long history of intentionally misrepresenting crowd action, as it suits power to portray it as mindless rather than based on genuine grievance.

Reicher presents a pretty compelling alternative model to the Lebonian mindless mob.

Steve Reicher - Wikipedia

His analysis of the St Paul’s riot in Bristol in the early 80s served as a starting point for reinventing the way crowds are understood.  Not that the media or politicians have an interest in catching up on 35 years of thought on the subject.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> That explains your confusion.


i am not confused

when was the last time you saw a dozen drivers get together to work in concert?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It's that famous firm The Canning Town Gammons.
> 
> Millwall and the ICF shit themselves when they turn up.


Wearing you prat hat with pride and volume today eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Of course they were gammons. It dioesn't fit the narrative and preconceived prejudices for them to be anything else. Working class folk would never do something like this!


i think you miss the point, which i took to be people angered by some twats on train = gammons, regardless of their age, gender, sex or indeed class. where previously gammon was applied to a certain sort of middle-aged gent, it seems to have lost all meaning if it can be so broadly applied. all that is solid melts into air.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> The media have a long history of intentionally misrepresenting crowd action, as it suits power to portray it as mindless rather than based on genuine grievance.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

It still needs pointing out though


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i am not confused
> 
> when was the last time you saw a dozen drivers get together to work in concert?



This is where I would also have been confused, before learning to drive (which I don't do that often).
You get loads of tiny micro-negotiations happening continuously, without which traffic would barely move at all.

Also, when you get unexpected things like eg. partly blocked roads, broken traffic lights, partial floodings etc. you get emergent 'systems' happening to keep things moving in a very similar manner to some of the things kabbes is describing.

That said, London seems to have its own special rules, which may be obfuscating things further.

Tl;dr - generally speaking, drivers are “working as a team” most of the time, though I concede that I have never seen a whole bunch of them get out of their vehicles and beat someone up


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> It still needs pointing out though



Fair enough - it was a good reference and example.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you miss the point, which i took to be people angered by some twats on train = gammons, regardless of their age, gender, sex or indeed class. where previously gammon was applied to a certain sort of middle-aged gent, it seems to have lost all meaning if it can be so broadly applied. all that is solid melts into air.



Shut it, you gammon.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Would you have joined in the beating had you been there?


What? 

Risk spoiling my £1500 Gucci loafers?

Not a chance.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you miss the point, which i took to be people angered by some twats on train = gammons, regardless of their age, gender, sex or indeed class. where previously gammon was applied to a certain sort of middle-aged gent, it seems to have lost all meaning if it can be so broadly applied. all that is solid melts into air.



Since we're talking stereotypes, I'd also have associated gammons with a stereotype of drivers.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you miss the point, which i took to be people angered by some twats on train = gammons, regardless of their age, gender, sex or indeed class.


Well that's _quite_ the point.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Of course they were gammons. It dioesn't fit the narrative and preconceived prejudices for them to be anything else. Working class folk would never do something like this!



Sky News (Australia) reporting today with Brendan O’Neil claiming the public are now rising up against XR whom are perceived as an elitist organisation that hates the public, is against economic growth and progress.

5mins 25 in (first part discusses govts new agreed EU deal).


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Sky News (Australia) reporting today with Brendan O’Neil claiming the public are now rising up against XR whom are perceived as an elitist organisation that hates the public, is against economic growth and progress.
> 
> 5mins 25 in (first part discusses govts new agreed EU deal).




Well well well..

Who could have predicted such a thing?
Any breaking news on ursine defecatory practices?


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

There's certainly a rush to look like a prick today isn't there?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Just seen they've also been having an action at YouTube headquarters because of Big Oil sponsored videos being hosted on there.
I've politely suggested that they have a moratorium on actions involving the word 'tube' for a little bit.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Oct 17, 2019)

XR have run into a classic problem of all decentralised movements/ campaigns; how do you scale your cause without being subject to the vulnerability of a few people damaging the wider group with stupid actions like this?


.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> What?
> 
> Risk spoiling my £1500 Gucci loafers?
> 
> Not a chance.



I wonder what footwear the tube protestor was wearing, hopefully something of soft leather, as he did get a kick in on the guy who unceremoniously dragged him off.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Sky News (Australia) reporting today with Brendan O’Neil claiming the public are now rising up against XR whom are perceived as an elitist organisation that hates the public, is against economic growth and progress.
> 
> 5mins 25 in (first part discusses govts new agreed EU deal).




Sky news Australia?

Himmm is there any massive industry in Australia that might have skin in the game?  I wonder.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Sky news Australia?
> Himmm is there any massive industry in Australia that might have skin in the game?  I wonder.



Big Kangaroo.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Gatwick ER action cancelled. 

Well done chaps!


----------



## maomao (Oct 17, 2019)

Not a lot of gammons getting on at Canning Town before 8am. Though I suppose there could have been people who got on from suburban trains at Stratford on the train already who got off to join the mob.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> There's certainly a rush to look like a prick today isn't there?











Yep!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> chilango said:
> 
> 
> > There's certainly a rush to look like a prick today isn't there?
> ...



I am only seeing a red X in your post, no image, until I quote you.

ETA - I've saved it & uploaded it for you...


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I wonder what footwear the tube protestor was wearing, hopefully something of soft leather, as he did get a kick in on the guy who unceremoniously dragged him off.


Yes. The peaceful protestor tries to kick a commuter in the face. That's probably what earned him the spanking.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. The peaceful protestor tries to kick a commuter in the face. That's probably what earned him the spanking.



You try to pull someone off something high - that person has face-kicking rights.
This has always been the way, I think it's in _Leviticus _somewhere.


----------



## salem (Oct 17, 2019)

That bloke in the white hoodie looks well up for it - his day has been made.

I reckon we'll be seeing more of this now people have seen it happen once and these guys are being portrayed as ordinary heroes. It's quite a good bit of theatre - I wonder how spontaneous it was?

Scary to see a mob in action in such a benign setting though. This seems to be the first bit of proper resistance XR have come across.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> You try to pull someone off something high - that person has face-kicking rights.



The video shows clearly that no attempt had been made to pull the bloke off the train (mainly because the commuter was still climbing the ladder) when the XR bloke kicks out quite viciously. As much as Spy is being a bit twattish in his replies, he's probably right as to this being the reason the bloke got a kicking.

I'm guessing he wasn't the Buddhist teacher (wtf was that all about?).


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> The video shows clearly that no attempt had been made to pull the bloke off the train (mainly because the commuter was still climbing the ladder) when the XR bloke kicks out quite viciously. As much as Spy is being a bit twattish in his replies, he's probably right as to this being the reason the bloke got a kicking.
> 
> I'm guessing he wasn't the Buddhist teacher (wtf was that all about?).



I will have to take another look later.  The Buddhist teacher business remains a mystery.


----------



## maomao (Oct 17, 2019)

Traditionally some Buddhists were a dab hand with the old martial arts. Maybe he's some sort of warrior monk.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Big Kangaroo.



My g/f's brother lives in Perth with his family.  Both he and his wife are employed in the wider fossil fuel mining industry as are most people down there.  Apparently there was a XR demo in Perth with a handful of people, it was completely ignored.  Here in lies the problem, they have 3 young children who will no doubt have to deal with the fallout from the world being fucked but its just easier to pretend its not happening when your livelihood depends on it.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> The Buddhist teacher business remains a mystery.



The mystery is why Buddhists get a free pass when it comes to violence. It might be in their teachings (non-violence) but in reality history is littered with examples of Buddhist acts of violence. And you don't have to go too far back - e.g the Sri Lankan civil war.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. The peaceful protestor tries to kick a commuter in the face. That's probably what earned him the spanking.


here on urban we analyse things quite carefully, as we pass the time. i don't think the kick will be remembered. but the shoeing will, and tbh the xr protesters were - in eighties parlance - cruising for a bruising before that happened.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> My g/f's brother lives in Perth with his family.  Both he and his wife are employed in the wider fossil fuel mining industry as are most people down there.  Apparently there was a XR demo in Perth with a handful of people, it was completely ignored.  Here in lies the problem, they have 3 young children who will no doubt have to deal with the fallout from the world being fucked but its just easier to pretend its not happening when your livelihood depends on it.



People will believe anything when their salary is dependent on believing it.  Always been the way.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> The mystery is why Buddhists get a free pass when it comes to violence. It might be in their teachings (non-violence) but in reality history is littered with examples of Buddhist acts of violence. And you don't have to go too far back - e.g the Sri Lankan civil war.



Sure.  I was just trying to get a good read on whether that was really what was meant in that weird bit of coverage.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I wonder what footwear the tube protestor was wearing, hopefully something of soft leather, as he did get a kick in on the guy who unceremoniously dragged him off.



We are getting unconfirmed reports of £1500 Gucci loafers...


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

Only just seen this. WTF?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Only just seen this. WTF?




Indeed.  
Papers, please.

Amazing how little it takes, eh?


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Indeed.
> Papers, please.
> 
> Amazing how little it takes, eh?



Some of us remember the Miner's strike and being turned away for not being in the 'right' county. By police who certainly weren't in the right county.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Papers, please.


At least it’ll give them the chance to whip out the Louis Vuitton passport wallets.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> Some of us remember the Miner's strike and being turned away for not being in the 'right' county. By police who certainly weren't in the right county.



That's the thing that always hits me when XR express shock and outrage at something that has been done to them.  They had so many people on hand, broadly on side with their aims, who could have taken them exactly through how things would pan out given certain actions and conditions.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> At least it’ll give them the chance to whip out the Louis Vuitton passport wallets.



I don't think all your comrades will be in the income bracket to afford them, Mr Deep Cover.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> At least it’ll give them the chance to whip out the Louis Vuitton passport wallets.



Wouldn't a LV wallet be a dead giveaway as an XR protestor?

Hermès for sure.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Wouldn't a LV wallet be a dead giveaway as an XR protestor?
> 
> Hermès for sure.



What, do all the courier guys have company passport holders?


----------



## Numbers (Oct 17, 2019)

I was just about to enter Canning Town this morning when this kicked off so couldn’t get in.  

It was utter chaos outside for buses so I walked back down Barking Rd to get the 276 to West Ham, buses were so full people couldn’t get on, at the stop by Star Lane DLR a guy/dickhead, not able to get on, smashed the glass in the door scattering the shatter all over the people near the door, including a woman with 2 kids.  Thankfully nobody got hurt.

There was a terrible mood in the air.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yep!



Indeed. One of many today.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2019)

Numbers said:


> I was just about to enter Canning Town this morning when this kicked off so couldn’t get in.
> 
> It was utter chaos outside for buses so I walked back down Barking Rd to get the 276 to West Ham, buses were so full people couldn’t get on, at the stop by Star Lane DLR a guy/dickhead, not able to get on, smashed the glass in the door scattering the shatter all over the people near the door, including a woman with 2 kids.  Thankfully nobody got hurt.
> 
> There was a terrible mood in the air.


People at busy stations go absolutely nuts sometimes at the slightest delay, screaming at staff when a line is held up because someone has been killed on the track, let alone one where there's an identifiable target. It's a sickness, it's not healthy. It's a dehumanising environment.

One of the reasons I had to stop commuting out of Liverpool Street was not just that atmosphere but the fact that I felt myself starting to get into it, feeling angry at people who'd tried to kill themselves on the central line (which seemed to happen every Monday).


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Wouldn't a LV wallet be a dead giveaway as an XR protestor?


Why's that then?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> People at busy stations go absolutely nuts sometimes at the slightest delay, screaming at staff when a line is held up because someone has been killed on the track, let alone one where there's an identifiable target. It's a sickness, it's not healthy. It's a dehumanising environment.
> 
> One of the reasons I had to stop commuting out of Liverpool Street was not just that atmosphere but the fact that I felt myself starting to get into it, feeling angry at people who'd tried to kill themselves on the central line (which seemed to happen every Monday).



Just seeing the looks on some of the faces in that clip, it didn’t seem like a happy place. Not just unhappy cos of one delay iyswim.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

> What spark of humanity, of a possible creativity, can remain alive in a being dragged out of sleep at six every morning, jolted about in suburban trains, deafened by the racket of machinery, bleached and steamed by meaningless sounds and gestures, spun dry by statistical controls, and tossed out at the end of the day into the entrance halls of railway stations, those cathedrals of departure for the hell of weekdays and the nugatory paradise of weekends, where the crowd communes in weariness and boredom?


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 17, 2019)

currently half-way through that ^


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)




----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Apparently this was posted on their Facebook page this morning and then deleted:



> *To Londoners, ordinary commuters, working class citizens, black people, minority communities, humans of all ages. Please read.*
> 
> You may have already heard: Extinction Rebellion activists took to the Tube and blocked Shadwell and Canning Town this morning in an effort to cause mass disruption and raise public awareness about the climate and ecological emergency.
> 
> ...


Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news

"Black people"????

 WTF? Are "black people" separate to Londoners?


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 17, 2019)

Where does that quote originate from? chilango


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news


----------



## seeformiles (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 187335
> London Newsletter: Day 10 - Extinction Rebellion
> 
> it's rather emetic



Emetic? Positively projectile vomit inducing. The whole thing reads like it was dictated by a messianic figure in white robes, eyes closed and hands extended to the heavens while the scribes scribble. Very difficult to read with a straight face but a fine example of quasi mystic spin. Bravo!


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Apparently this was posted on their Facebook page this morning and then deleted:
> 
> Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news
> 
> ...



Why couldn't they just start it with "To Londoners - Please Read" ?


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Where does that quote originate from? chilango



Vaneigem's Situationist classic  _Revolution of Everyday Life._

You can read it online here.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Apparently this was posted on their Facebook page this morning and then deleted



Where did you grab it from?


----------



## LDC (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


>



That's exactly what went though my mind too.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Where did you grab it from?


See the link.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> See the link.



gotcha!


----------



## clicker (Oct 17, 2019)

Unusual number of police vans parked up on perimeters of traf square...12 of them. A definite police presence  on the ground. A few cars also parked up. One person with a placard in the square with very small crowd listening . Why is the actual Column taped off? And signs saying no climbing on the lions . XR related or just building works? No building works going on, but it was chucking it down. The poor bloke dressed as Yoda was saturated.


----------



## LDC (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Apparently this was posted on their Facebook page this morning and then deleted:
> 
> Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news
> 
> ...



They've faced a fair bit of criticism from ID politics types, I do see them going down that road a bit. They're starting an XR Liberation sub group which seems to be about that mostly, so I'm not surprised to see this clumsy wording.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> They've faced a fair bit of criticism from ID politics types, I do see them going down that road a bit. They're starting an XR Liberation sub group which seems to be about that mostly, so I'm not surprised to see this clumsy wording.


it's so maladroit it's beyond clumsy


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2019)

clicker said:


> Unusual number of police vans parked up on perimeters of traf square...12 of them. A definite police presence  on the ground. A few cars also parked up. One person with a placard in the square with very small crowd listening . Why is the actual Column taped off? And signs saying no climbing on the lions . XR related or just building works? No building works going on, but it was chucking it down. The poor bloke dressed as Yoda was saturated.


12 vans > 84 cops


----------



## clicker (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> 12 vans > 84 cops


Yes only about 50 milling around. The rest prob sheltering from the rain.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

That statement from XR illustrates exactly what I was saying about emergent behaviours being policed by the evolving moral norms of the crowd’s shared identity.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Apparently this was posted on their Facebook page this morning and then deleted:
> 
> Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news
> 
> ...



It's like an attempt at an inclusive call of arms written by my Nan.
Ok, quite a few Nans in the movement, and that's all good, but someone proof-read it while we still have a few face-palms left in the server cache ffs.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

chilango said:


> Vaneigem's Situationist classic  _Revolution of Everyday Life._
> 
> You can read it online here.





I know a small number of people who *really love* their job.
Must be quite an amazing thing.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> It's like an attempt at an inclusive call of arms written by my Nan.
> Ok, quite a few Nans in the movement, and that's all good, but someone proof-read it while we still have a few face-palms left in the server cache ffs.


It was posted on the Facebook page of the London branch so it's highly likely to have been written by someone on here. I can think of several possible culprits


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It was posted on the Facebook page of the London branch so it's highly likely to have been written by someone on here. I can think of several possible culprits



Do we have many XR on here?  They're very quiet on this thread...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news



As a staunch supporter of law and order I assume you are lobbying the judiciary to come down hard on these miscreants, yeah?


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

This seems to be a reasonable summary of many of the arguments I've seen on FB today: 

"Those fucking XR protesters - they're all middle class/rich/dole scroungers/stupid/scum/never had a proper job/lazy fuckers/hypocrites"
"Hold on, isn't this kind of blanket negative demonising/stereotyping a bit like the 'Outraged From Surrey' stuff you read in the online comments page of the Daily Mail?"
"OMG THIS IS GASLIGHTING!"


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As a staunch supporter of law and order I assume you are lobbying the judiciary to come down hard on these miscreants, yeah?


Nah. Couldn't give a toss, tbh. I like seeing them get fucked over and enjoy the outrage and pearl clutching by certain wallies on here but that's about it.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Do we have many XR on here?  They're very quiet on this thread...


Maybe they're busy being non-armchair activists?


----------



## Flavour (Oct 17, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> very interesting article about xr here World Resources Institute Archives - Wrong Kind of Green in particular dealing with their relationship with left activists.



Just to note I linked something from this website before and it was swiftly pointed out to me that their two main writers (Cory Morningstar and Vanessa Beeley) have more than questionable views on assad/syria


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Nah. Couldn't give a toss, tbh. I like seeing them get fucked over and enjoy the outrage and pearl clutching by certain wallies on here but that's about it.



I meant the thugs whom the police are investigating, not the warrior Buddhist monk and his mates...


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 17, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I meant the thugs whom the police are investigating, not the warrior Buddhist monk and his mates...


The guy who kicked the commuter in the head got what he deserved but more generally, yeah, you can't go around beating people up. Drag them off the trains, egg them, chuck soft stuff at them by all means ...


----------



## manji (Oct 17, 2019)

I was questioning the merits of the tube stunt with a mate of mine who has been in XR from the beginning and he said the majority of XR were opposed to it as it was counterproductive but as XR is an autonomous group they couldn’t stop them.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Maybe they're busy being non-armchair activists?



The ones I know are pretty active on both fronts.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> The ones I know are pretty active on both fronts.


Front and bottom?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

editor said:


> Front and bottom?



I don't ask them about their bottom activities.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

XR’s problem is that the only thing holding them together is a generic belief that climate change needs stopping.  That in itself is not a fantastic guide for how to behave or respond to different kinds of circumstances.  So different parts of the crowd will act in wildly different ways without really much to cohere a consensus around.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> XR’s problem is that the only thing holding them together is a generic belief that climate change needs stopping.  That in itself is not a fantastic guide for how to behave or respond to different kinds of circumstances.  So different parts of the crowd will act in wildly different ways without really much to cohere a consensus around.



Not their only problem, but yeah, that’s one.

Getting that many people to band together and adhere to a 500 page rule book ain’t so easy either to be fair.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> XR’s problem is that the only thing holding them together is a generic belief that climate change needs stopping.  That in itself is not a fantastic guide for how to behave or respond to different kinds of circumstances.  So different parts of the crowd will act in wildly different ways without really much to cohere a consensus around.


They have a specific set of principles - it isn't just "anyone can do anything and call themselves XR and that's fine".


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They have a specific set of principles - it isn't just "anyone can do anything and call themselves XR and that's fine".



Not *that* exhaustive on the behaviour front aside from continual internal decision-making and a strong attachment to non-violence, though.

Edit: their 10 principles


----------



## T & P (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> XR’s problem is that the only thing holding them together is a generic belief that climate change needs stopping.  That in itself is not a fantastic guide for how to behave or respond to different kinds of circumstances.  So different parts of the crowd will act in wildly different ways without really much to cohere a consensus around.


It’s the Judean People’s Front all over again.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

T & P said:


> It’s the Judean People’s Front all over again.



Fuck off...


----------



## YouSir (Oct 17, 2019)

Have we had this yet? XR Red Handed Rebellion

Do a bit of graffiti and then hand yourself into the police. I have no idea what result they expect from that.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

YouSir said:


> Have we had this yet? XR Red Handed Rebellion
> 
> Do a bit of graffiti and then hand yourself into the police. I have no idea what result they expect from that.



You missed what to me is the most significant thing about the graffiti.


----------



## maomao (Oct 17, 2019)

It's like WW1 military tactics. Pile up the bodies till the other side run out of bullets.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 17, 2019)

YouSir said:


> Have we had this yet? XR Red Handed Rebellion
> 
> Do a bit of graffiti and then hand yourself into the police. I have no idea what result they expect from that.



idea is to clog up the police stations with very minor, self confessed criminal damage cases.

chalk spray + rain might not be so effective tho...


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Not their only problem, but yeah, that’s one.
> 
> Getting that many people to band together and adhere to a 500 page rule book ain’t so easy either to be fair.


It’s not about a rule book.  In fact, the very point is that it’s not about a rule book.  Cohesiveness is about deontic behaviour, not prescription of rules.  It’s about an internalised set of values that means people behave in a consistent fashion because they _identify_ with that behaviour.   XR lack that kind of deontology because they consist in reality of vague wants, not grass roots identity, and no amount of written down principles is going to fix that.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2019)

The Canning Town XR protest is consistent with XR idea of making the country ungovernable through non violent direct action. Then bringing the government of the day to bring in by law zero carbon by 2025.

The other side of XR is to influence people to see that there is still time to change society radically - which is required if zero carbon is brought in quickly.

The two week "rebellion" in the London was to set up two week camps in the centre of power. Lambeth Bridge for example. XR were planning not just disruption but an alternative presence. Different camps would showcase different sections of XR and try to engage with public. 

The occupation of Bank is an example. Very successful.

With the police clamping down from the very beginning XR have been unable to put across their message in ways that aren't disruptive of ordinary peoples lives.

So it leaves XR activists with actions like stopping trains. Then XR are blamed for being purely disruptive.

Another thing too consider. XR attraction for people I've chatted to in last week is that its an open organisation. Its not run like some rigid political party. As long as you sign up to non violence ( against people) and XR basic demands for zero carbon and peoples assemblies the actions one takes aren't dictated by a central Committee.

This can lead to what happened today. Disruption of transport for the ordinary Londoner. A mistake imo.

A problem XR have is that its decentralised . Secondly its having to respond to news on actions quickly.

I didn't support the Canning Town action. But I'm sympathetic to XR due to the actual XR people I have spoken to.

Stopping peaceful protest through Section 14 is going to make it more confrontational.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

Sorry, but one sec — what occupation of Bank is this now?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2019)

8ball said:


> Btw, I’ve just asked someone fairly influential in XR to check, just in case...
> 
> Edit: all I have so far is that huge numbers of XR members didn’t want this particular action to happen (not verified directly by my contact, but is part of the discussion I have butted into)



Little update.  He confirms the action was heavily opposed and a lot of effort went into dissuading the guys in the tube action (and that he didn’t agree with it himself).
Also pretty much in line with what I said insofar as actually stopping non-violent actions (where someone feels the climate emergency is such that an action is justified), they don’t actually stop things.

Which clearly comes with all the attendant problems that we have been discussing for the last few pages.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Sorry, but one sec — what occupation of Bank is this now?



No it was one day occupation. I have photos of it on this thread.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 17, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> No it was one day occupation. I have photos of it on this thread.


Ah, right.


----------



## GarveyLives (Oct 17, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Yes. The peaceful protestor tries to kick a commuter in the face ...














(Source: as stated in images)

*... and scores an own goal of spectacular proportions.*​


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2019)

Terrible PR day for XR...






Extinction Rebellion apologises over Tube disruption after furious mob of commuters clash with activists


----------



## ddraig (Oct 17, 2019)

proper  ^^


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2019)

> Britain’s response to escalating climate protests on London’s streets this month, with mass arrests and tighter restrictions, is consistent with a “global pattern of suppression” of environmental activists, said a U.N. human rights expert.



David R. Boyd, the U.N. special rapporteur on human rights and the environment.

UK clampdown on climate protests sets 'disturbing precedent' - UN rights expert

The backlash against XR starts. XR have been successful in getting threat of climate change back on the political agenda. 

So far I think they have done a good job of it.


----------



## albionism (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news


 "it emerged one of the activists is a Buddhist teacher." I wonder if that's the one who aimed a kick at a commuters head ?


----------



## maomao (Oct 18, 2019)

Jubilee line's fucked this morning without any help from ER  
If only there were someone to drag off the roof and give a kicking.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

albionism said:


> "it emerged one of the activists is a Buddhist teacher." I wonder if that's the one who aimed a kick at a commuters head ?



The odd thing is that whether it was or wasn’t was considered relevant.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 18, 2019)

London Bridge has about 35 coppers along its length this morning- there’s a red badger ordering them about but the shock troops are not badged as met - South Yorkshire by the accents. Also this seasons on trend fashion item is the good old NI troubles glove. Not seen these for a long time


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> London Bridge has about 35 coppers along its length this morning- there’s a red badger ordering them about but the shock troops are not badged as met - South Yorkshire by the accents. Also this seasons on trend fashion item is the good old NI troubles glove. Not seen these for a long time


 Badgers likes ordering coppers about

but sadly they so seldom listen to him


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Badgers likes ordering coppers about
> 
> but sadly they so seldom listen to him



Great, my image search for the scariest red badger I could find was totally wasted.

Best I could manage:


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> London Bridge has about 35 coppers along its length this morning- there’s a red badger ordering them about but the shock troops are not badged as met - *South Yorkshire* by the accents. Also this seasons on trend fashion item is the good old NI troubles glove. Not seen these for a long time



Winners of the hotly-contested worst police force in the UK award 39 years on the bounce.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Great, my image search for the scariest red badger I could find was totally wasted.


Badgers in a liverpool top hurling abuse at fans of other teams is scary.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 18, 2019)

It evokes slight odd feeling for me seeing bussed in coppers in my hood.not going to labour the point but you know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Winners of the hotly-contested worst police force in the UK award 39 years on the bounce.


and given the state of the other police forces in the country that's up against some stiff competition


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Winners of the hotly-contested worst police force in the UK award 39 years on the bounce.


  I might be wrong and they may indeed be met but the brogue was incongruous to the location. Also they are all wearing generic police baseball caps rather than the met or city fedoras.


Maybe they should wear the bb cap with the peak to the side to get the flavor flav vibe going and get down with the kids


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> London Bridge has about 35 coppers along its length this morning- there’s a red badger ordering them about but the shock troops are not badged as met - South Yorkshire by the accents. Also this seasons on trend fashion item is the good old NI troubles glove. Not seen these for a long time



If you're referring to sap gloves, they count as unauthorised weapons for UK police. Oddly enough though, they've turned out to be mere 'padded gloves' every time plods have been spotted wearing them in recent years. I've had one of these padded gloves in my kidneys more than once and I can confirm that the padding is extremely ineffective


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> I might be wrong and they may indeed be met but the brogue was incongruous to the location. Also they are all wearing generic police baseball caps rather than the met or city fedoras.


never seen a cop in a fedora


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> If you're referring to sap gloves, they count as unauthorised weapons for UK police. Oddly enough though, they've turned out to be mere 'padded gloves' every time plods have been spotted wearing them in recent years. I've had one of these padded gloves in my kidneys more than once and I can confirm that the padding is extremely ineffective


the trick is to _avoid_ being punched in the kidneys


----------



## YouSir (Oct 18, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> London Bridge has about 35 coppers along its length this morning- there’s a red badger ordering them about but the shock troops are not badged as met - South Yorkshire by the accents. Also this seasons on trend fashion item is the good old NI troubles glove. Not seen these for a long time



Waterloo had Staffordshire police yesterday. Lots of festive overtime for sitting in vans in the rain.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the trick is to _avoid_ being punched in the kidneys



Easier said than done when you've got another copper holding both your arms. 

The old kidney jab, like the 'quick grope of a female protestor's arse', has the public relations advantage of being invisible to cameras in a close-quarters public order situation.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> the trick is to _avoid_ being punched in the kidneys



Never get close enough to be in a grapple scenario with a copper- they are usually better at it than citizens as we generally err on the side of caution because authority, whereas they don’t care


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Easier said than done when you've got another copper holding both your arms.
> 
> The old kidney jab, like the 'quick grope of a female protestor's arse', has the public relations advantage of being invisible to cameras in a close-quarters public order situation.


i think you need to work on your 'not having my arms held by the cops' skills


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 18, 2019)

I am supposed to be getting more right wing as I get older, now I am channeling the miners strike again. Fuckibg hell


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you need to work on your 'not having my arms held by the cops' skills



Meh. If it takes three of them to get in one good punch then I reckon I'm winning tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Meh. If it takes three of them to get in one good punch then I reckon I'm winning tbh.


how many of their kidneys have you punched?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> how many of their kidneys have you punched?



Nil. It's a coward's blow that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nil. It's a coward's blow that.


be that as it may, at the moment it's about 3-0 to them


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nil. It's a coward's blow that.


All's fair in love and public order violations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> All's fair in love and public order violations.


like luring cop vans into housing estates and then setting on them with missiles


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

The XR boat on Thames this morning


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> The XR boat on Thames this morningView attachment 187431 View attachment 187432



Looks like a sunny pleasant morning there, absolutely chucking it down where I am.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Looks like a sunny pleasant morning there, absolutely chucking it down where I am.



Sunny by Lambeth bridge.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

the mail on the ball as ever here

Police Scotland prank their Met colleagues by plastering STICKERS onto their vans | Daily Mail Online
those are plainly city of london cops in the picture


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

At Oxford Circus rn - a big wooden thing with people on it being removed with a cherry picker, and some folk on the ground. Also quite a few XR walking around the edge in circles.



ETA: wooden thing now down, still loads of cops round the junction.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 18, 2019)

If Stinky Rebellion are walking round the edge then should plod wish to arrest them then would they use s12 or s14? Asking for a friend.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

Someone just announced an action going on on Whitehall now. Might as well head down I suppose.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> At Oxford Circus rn - a big wooden thing with people on it being removed with a cherry picker, and some folk on the ground. Also quite a few XR walking around the edge in circles.
> 
> View attachment 187444
> 
> ETA: wooden thing now down, still loads of cops round the junction.



Dailymail referring to it as a pyramid structure.

Extinction Rebellion occupy Oxford Street in latest stunt | Daily Mail Online


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Someone just announced an action going on on Whitehall now. Might as well head down I suppose.


Take pics!


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Libertad said:


> If Stinky Rebellion are walking round the edge then should plod wish to arrest them then would they use s12 or s14? Asking for a friend.


"Stinky Rebellion"?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Dailymail referring to it as a pyramid structure.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion occupy Oxford Street in latest stunt | Daily Mail Online


Tetrahedral, not pyramidal  the quality of journalism these days


----------



## Libertad (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> "Stinky Rebellion"?



That's what our little boy calls them.


----------



## andysays (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> "Stinky Rebellion"?


It sounds like an affectionate diminutive to me


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> It sounds like an affectionate diminutive to me


OK Stinky Andy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Take pics!


I'm shooting film today (EASTMAN DOUBLE-X Black & White Negative Film 5222/7222 | Motion Picture Film for the record) but I will get some on my phone as well.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm shooting film today (EASTMAN DOUBLE-X Black & White Negative Film 5222/7222 | Motion Picture Film for the record) but I will get some on my phone as well.


I've never heard of DOUBLE X black and white, but the webpage sure looks edgy and yoofy! 
EASTMAN DOUBLE-X Black & White Negative Film 5222/7222 | Motion Picture Film

Look forward to seeing your results!


----------



## andysays (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> OK Stinky Andy.


It doesn't quite work in your example, because there isn't a word in my name which can be diminuated in the same way extinction can be to stinky, but if you really want to call me stinky Andy, I'll refrain from reporting your FAQ breaking post to the moderators this time


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> It sounds like an affectionate diminutive to me



Yeah, multiple people have independently come up with this formulation, generally not hostile people either, so I think XR are unruffled.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

Nothing on Whitehall  maybe it was a decoy


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> It doesn't quite work in your example, because there isn't a word in my name which can be diminuated in the same way extinction can be to stinky, but if you really want to call me stinky Andy, I'll refrain from reporting your FAQ breaking post to the moderators this time


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, multiple people have independently come up with this formulation, generally not hostile people either, so I think XR are unruffled.


Yeah, environmental protesters just love being called stinky.  Oh look, here's one of those 'non hostile' headlines:

STINKY REBELLION: Unwashed Middle Class Moaners Are Zealots Without A Clue

And of course Boris Cuntface liked to allude to the smell too.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Yeah, environmental protesters just love being called stinky.  Oh look, here's one of those 'non hostile' headlines:
> 
> STINKY REBELLION: Unwashed Middle Class Moaners Are Zealots Without A Clue



Not everyone is as twitchy as you.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Not everyone is as twitchy as you.


You seem to be acquiring a habit of speaking on behalf of others. I've rarely met any protesters who like to be described as 'stinky.' It's an easy way to dismiss them and their concerns.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

Fucking hell!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2019)

The worse thing about calling XR 'Stinky Rebellion' is that it erases the word and concept of avoiding 'extinction' which is pretty fundamental to the point of the movement/protests.

Calling protesters 'unwashed' is a well known Right Wing jibe too.


----------



## andysays (Oct 18, 2019)

I hope Libertad's little boy is suitably admonished after all this


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking hell!



It's good, but not a classic.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 18, 2019)

Libertad's little boy is suitably admonished after all this[/QUOTE]
Was it Libertad's little boy who posted on here?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> I hope Libertad's little boy is suitably admonished after all this


Sent to bed with no tea hopefully.

'How dare you call our rebellion stinky!'


----------



## Libertad (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> You seem to be acquiring a habit of speaking on behalf of others. I've rarely met any protesters who like to be described as 'stinky.' It's an easy way to dismiss them and their concerns.





Rutita1 said:


> The worse thing about calling XR 'Stinky Rebellion' is that it erases the world and concept of avoiding 'extinction' which is pretty fundamental to the point of the movement/protests.
> 
> Calling protesters 'unwashed' is a well known Right Wing jibe too.



Yeah that's exactly what the five year old profoundly autistic boy with a severe learning disability had in mind. I'll have to have a word with him, the fucking fascist.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Yeah that's exactly what the five year old profoundly autistic boy with a severe learning disability had in mind. I'll have to have a word with him, the fucking fascist.



Just don't. Of course i didn't mean your son. Does he post here btw? 

Seriously, fuck off laying this shit on me. Have a word with yourself.



Libertad said:


> If Stinky Rebellion are walking round the edge then should plod wish to arrest them then would they use s12 or s14? Asking for a friend.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Yeah that's exactly what the five year old profoundly autistic boy with a severe learning disability had in mind. I'll have to have a word with him, the fucking fascist.


I was actually talking to those who were claiming it was seen as some sort of 'affectionate' term for protesters when clearly it is generally used as a way to dismiss and belittle them. It's hardly a new tactic either -  eco-protesters have been dismissed and out down as stinky/dirty/dole-spongers/whatever for decades.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> I hope Libertad's little boy is suitably admonished after all this


Really cheap and unnecessary dig, that. He clearly was not part of the debate here.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

If there's one thing sure to stop detractors from name-calling, it's getting really really upset.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Really cheap and unnecessary dig, that.



Shitstirring, as usual.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Just don't. Of course i didn't mean your son. Does he post here btw?
> 
> Seriously, fuck off laying this shit on me. Have a word with yourself.


Libertad's comment fair enough, in all honesty, after you'd accused his son, among others, of erasing the world


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> If there's one thing sure to stop detractors from name-calling, it's getting really really upset.


Ah, so it is name calling now? Make up your mind.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> If there's one thing sure to stop detractors from name-calling, it's getting really really upset.



Who is getting _really, really_ upset? 

...I'll leave the Friday crew to the baiting and shitstirring.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> I was actually talking to those who were claiming it was seen as some sort of 'affectionate' term for protesters when clearly it is generally used as a way to dismiss and belittle them. It's hardly a new tactic either -  eco-protesters have been dismissed and out down as stinky/dirty/dole-spongers/whatever for decades.


it's protesters in general who are often so described, doesn't particularly matter what the cause is.

but tbh if you've been camping out for several days in central london and there is the whiff of bo about you it would hardly surprise would it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Who is getting _really, really_ upset?
> 
> ...I'll leave the Friday crew to the baiting and shitstirring.


no one here is friday crew. a rather dismissive way of making out people just dip in now and again as opposed to the regulars here.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> it's protesters in general who are often so described, doesn't particularly matter what the cause is.
> 
> but tbh if you've been camping out for several days in central london and there is the whiff of bo about you it would hardly surprise would it.


It's perfectly possible to keep yourself clean when you're camping in central London. Bit surprised to see you joining in with such nonsense.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> but tbh if you've been camping out for several days in central london and there is the whiff of bo about you it would hardly surprise would it.



Carry a pack of wet wipes for armpit application followed by a blast of deodorant should avert that.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> If there's one thing sure to stop detractors from name-calling, it's getting really really upset.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> ...I'll leave the Friday crew to the baiting and shitstirring.


Off you toddle!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> It's perfectly possible to keep yourself clean when you're camping in central London. Bit surprised to see you joining in with such nonsense.


if you know of places where you can get free showers in central london, it'd be grand if you could share the information

i'm not, and wouldn't, damn xr on the grounds that they might - just might, after several days away from home - not be quite as clean as usual


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Carry a pack of wet wipes for armpit application followed by a blast of deodorant should avert that.


good point well made


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Dailymail referring to it as a pyramid structure.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion occupy Oxford Street in latest stunt | Daily Mail Online



As opposed to a _pyramid scheme, _something to which XR bears no resemblance at all


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> if you know of places where you can get free showers in central london, it'd be grand if you could share the information


There's public toilets all around. There's wet wipes. There's soap. Not everyone there is camping the whole time and it's perfectly possible to stay clean when you're away from home for a couple of days. Quite why you're so keen to join in with the childish agenda of dismissing the protesters as being stinky is quite unfathomable.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Ah, so it is name calling now? Make up your mind.



Was that *just* in response to me?  Maybe you have conflated a couple of posts, or maybe some of the words you're responding to aren't really there.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Was that *just* in response to me?  Maybe you have conflated a couple of posts, or maybe some of the words you're responding to aren't really there.


It's not all about you.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> There's public toilets all around.



Bloody spoilt Londoners!


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> It's not all about you.



Ah, good. Was just thrown off by the way you quoted my post.
We have a convention around that.  Not sure whether it's in the FAQ's.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Ah, good. Was just thrown off by the way you quoted my post.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Ah, good. Was just thrown off by the way you quoted my post.
> We have a convention around that.  Not sure whether it's in the FAQ's.


You made a general point. I responded with a general point. It's not that hard a concept to understand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

i know i wouldn't be my usual fragrant self after several days without a shower, even if i can wash under the arms in a public loo, even if i had wet wipes.





editor said:


> There's public toilets all around. There's wet wipes. There's soap. Not everyone there is camping the whole time and it's perfectly possible to stay clean when you're away from home for a couple of days. Quite why you're so keen to join in with the childish agenda of dismissing the protesters as being stinky is quite unfathomable.


i know not everyone is camping the whole time. which is why i only mentioned people who'd been camping for several days. quite why you're so keen to keep this going is beyond me, it must be a very quiet time in editor towers for you to carry on about it so. in addition, you seem to have missed the second line of my post


Pickman's model said:


> i'm not, and wouldn't, damn xr on the grounds that they might - just might, after several days away from home - not be quite as clean as usual


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> You made a general point. I responded with a general point. It's not that hard a concept to understand.



Was that one for me or Spymaster?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Was that one for me or Spymaster?


a general point is one for both you and Spymaster


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Bloody spoilt Londoners!



Surprised XR haven’t protested London’s toilets, must be a hotspot for carbon emissions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Surprised XR haven’t protested London’s toilets, must be a hotspot for carbon emissions.


there's certainly a campaign to be had there, around accessible and free public toilets in london.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> a general point is one for both you and Spymaster



I meant the post I was directly responding to - with the quote! 

Not the general point in question, which seemed to be "you and Spy need to make your mind up about whether x is name-calling - no references to context permitted".  

Which is fine, obviously, but we need some time to confer, and the second part of #3189 has caused a BSOD on my irony meter which isn't going to be an easy fix.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> I meant the post I was directly responding to - with the quote!
> 
> Not the general point in question, which seemed to be "you and Spy need to make your mind up about whether x is name-calling - no references to context permitted".
> 
> Which is fine, obviously, but we need some time to confer, and the second part of #3189 has caused a BSOD on my irony meter which isn't going to be an easy fix.


not to mention that i was under the impression editor and spymaster refused to acknowledge each others' existence due to some peculiar mutual ignore.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there's certainly a campaign to be had there, around accessible and free public toilets in london.



I thought they were all around!

(In London, I mean - wish we had more where I live)


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> not to mention that i was under the impression editor and spymaster refused to acknowledge each others' existence due to some peculiar mutual ignore.



Did you ever hear that theory that they were the same person and this rule was some sort of "fourth wall" conceit?


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> I thought they were all around!
> 
> (In London, I mean - wish we had more where I live)


there are public loos in trafalgar square, on the embankment, and on (iirc) broad street in soho. also in mainline stations. but they are frankly few and far between, i think some of them charge (the embankment one did last time i passed by, think trafalgar square might) so more often i'd use the national gallery or the wetherspoons on whitehall. for the size of the city there are very, very few public toilets.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Did you ever hear that theory that they were the same person and this rule was some sort of "fourth wall" conceit?


it would explain a great deal


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> I thought they were all around!
> 
> (In London, I mean - wish we had more where I live)




They’re rarely free.


----------



## andysays (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Really cheap and unnecessary dig, that. He clearly was not part of the debate here.


His use of the phrase, reported by his father, is what started this whole thing off.

I still think the phrase was used as an affectionate diminutive by Libertad here on this thread, which does not, of course, mean that other people cannot or do not use it otherwise in other contexts.


----------



## andysays (Oct 18, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Shitstirring, as usual.


Mind reading, as usual


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)

going on and on aboot 'stinky' XR supporters and shithole access in central london will not help spring the UK's eco political prisoner Roger from clink will it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

redcogs said:


> going on and on aboot 'stinky' XR supporters and shithole access in central london will not help spring the UK's eco political prisoner Roger from clink will it?


i wonder if he's on dirty protest


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> His use of the phrase, reported by his father, is what started this whole thing off.
> 
> I still think the phrase was used as an affectionate diminutive by Libertad here on this thread, which does not, of course, mean that other people cannot or do not use it otherwise in other contexts.


No. Libertad's use of the phrase on here started this all off. Nothing to do with his son.


----------



## maomao (Oct 18, 2019)

Let's just assume the boy's been beaten soundly and move on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

Libertad said:


> If Stinky Rebellion are walking round the edge then should plod wish to arrest them then would they use s12 or s14? Asking for a friend.


further to previous replies, why not just go to prevent breach of the peace?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> They’re rarely free.



Are they expensive?  Had some paid ones at train station by me recently (they have gone free now), they weren't charging anything that would trouble the average XR.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> Are they expensive?  Had some paid ones at train station by me recently (they have gone free now), they weren't charging anything that would trouble the average XR.



All BR bogs are now gratis.

I have an office just off Trafalgar Square, with shiny bogs and a shower. Should I ever feel the need...


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> All BR bogs are now gratis.
> 
> I have an office just off Trafalgar Square, with shiny bogs and a shower. Should I ever feel the need...


bourgeoise


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

So actually there was/is stuff on Whitehall, I just walked too fast. A pretty long procession that started round the corner. Will put up more detail in a bit.


----------



## maomao (Oct 18, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> All BR bogs are now gratis.


What about Network Rail ones? Do you still have to jump the barriers?


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> They’re rarely free.


There's loads of free toilet facilities around central London. Pret - who seem to have a zillion stores - for example have free toilets.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

maomao said:


> What about Network Rail ones? Do you still have to jump the barriers?


Free as well 
Network Rail to end toilet charges in 2019


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

maomao said:


> What about Network Rail ones? Do you still have to jump the barriers?



By BR I mean Network Rail, or whatever they're called today.

*shoves a Marathon bar in mouth*


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> All BR bogs are now gratis.
> 
> I have an office just off Trafalgar Square, with shiny bogs and a shower. Should I ever feel the need...


Is there also a hot tub?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> There's loads of free toilet facilities around central London. Pret - who seem to have a zillion stores - for example have free toilets.


there are very few *public toilets* in central london

there are many toilets in businesses

but businesses' toilets aren't public toilets


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there are very few *public toilets* in central london
> 
> there are many toilets in businesses
> 
> but businesses' toilets aren't public toilets



I'm pretty sure McD's have been considered public toilets for the last couple of decades.
And Wetherspoons more recently.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Is there also a hot tub?




Could well be, it's just had a big refurb, but I've not set foot in the place in over 2 years


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'm pretty sure McD's have been considered public toilets for the last couple of decades.
> And Wetherspoons more recently.


i don't know about you but i wouldn't really want to wash in a mcd's toilet


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know about you but i wouldn't really want to wash in a mcd's toilet



I'd think twice about taking a dump in one.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'm pretty sure McD's have been considered public toilets for the last couple of decades.
> And Wetherspoons more recently.



Do you mean the actual toilets, or the venues themselves? Because there's nothing I want to do more than relieve myself on one of Tim Martin's carpets.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know about you but i wouldn't really want to wash in a mcd's toilet



The British Rail / Network Rail / Impassenger ones by me wouldn't be ideal for that either.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> there are very few *public toilets* in central london
> 
> there are many toilets in businesses
> 
> but businesses' toilets aren't public toilets


Fascinating. But there are still plenty of free toilets for people to have a wash and brush up, so not all protesters can be derided as being 'stinky' which I believe was the childish and dismissive point being brought up. Just like that twat Boris claimed. 

The end.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

sim667 said:


> Do you mean the actual toilets, or the venues themselves? Because there's nothing I want to do more than relieve myself on one of Tim Martin's carpets.



I don't imagine you'd stand out much against his usual clientele.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> The British Rail / Network Rail / Impassenger ones by me wouldn't be ideal for that either.


Maybe you should start a thread about this fascinating topic because this one has been taken off topic long enough.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Fascinating. But there are still plenty of free toilets for people to have a wash and brush up, so not all protesters can be derided as being 'stinky' which I believe was the childish and dismissive point being brought up. Just like that twat Boris claimed.
> 
> The end.


apart from my not having derided any protesters for being stinky, contrary to your suggestion here, you said 





editor said:


> There's public toilets all around.


 which tbh isn't the case.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)

Toilets are an endless source of debate.  For example, earlier this year i had occasion to defecate in a Tesco toilet in Elgin (following a particularly tasty curry the day before)..  There was a considerable 'fall out' which rendered the air almost unbreathable.  Two blokes came in as i was 'cleaning up'.  Their loud complaints to each other caused me to remain concealed within trap 1 for several minutes, until the coast was clear.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Maybe you should start a thread about this fascinating topic because this one has been taken off topic long enough.



There's already an old one in the transport forum.
Maybe if you merge threads...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> There's already an old one in the transport forum.
> Maybe if you merge threads...


don't merge the streams!


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> There's already an old one in the transport forum.
> Maybe if you merge threads...


I know it's all a big joke to you, but whether you support them or not, Extinction Rebellion is an important political development. It's really not appropriate to disrupt this thread to the point that it becomes about something as trite as toilets in Elgin or the quality of the ones near you - unless of course that is your aim. 

I'll ask politely that posters now stay on topic as this thread is reaching the point of no return.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

tbh if you're out on an extinction rebellion do or indeed any other protest in central london, knowing about where you can wash or piss or shit isn't in any sense trite.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> I'll ask politely that posters now stay on topic as this thread is reaching the point of no return.



It's like herding cats.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)

i feel contrite now.  apologies for lowering the tone.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh if you're out on an extinction rebellion do or indeed any other protest in central london, knowing about where you can wash or piss or shit isn't in any sense trite.


Already discussed in great detail so there is no need for you to mention it again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i feel contrite now.  apologies for lowering the tone.


but that is the urban way, there's no need to apologise for following the urban way


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> I'll ask politely that posters now stay on topic as this thread is reaching the point of no return.



I have a XR sticker on my bicycle. I stuck it over the logo to cover the corporate bullshite. Oddly the corporate logo is this:


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)

i am spartacus!


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

I'm going to start banning people off this thread for a few days if they continue the off topic disruption. 

Think before you post people!


----------



## andysays (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Fascinating. But there are still plenty of free toilets for people to have a wash and brush up, so not all protesters can be derided as being 'stinky' which I believe was the childish and dismissive point being brought up. Just like that twat Boris claimed.
> 
> The end.


Who on this thread are you accusing of childishly and dismissively deriding protesters as stinky?



editor said:


> Maybe you should start a thread about this fascinating topic because this one has been taken off topic long enough.


TBH, you appear to be primarily responsible for the tortuous diversion the thread had taken.

I genuinely am stinky after two days pruning damp shrubs, so I will be taking a break from posting here for a couple of hours while I stick my laundry in the machine and have a bath. Hopefully everyone will be a bit more flagrant when I return.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

so xr are getting people to spray paint against their hands


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> Who on this thread are you accusing of childishly and dismissively deriding protesters as stinky?
> 
> 
> TBH, you appear to be primarily responsible for the tortuous diversion the thread had taken.
> ...


flagrant? fragrant?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 18, 2019)

Flagrant?


----------



## andysays (Oct 18, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> so xr are getting people to spray paint against their hands
> View attachment 187458
> this would seem really really silly as - leaving aside the issue of criminal damage - you're marking your hands so all the police have to do is find people with painty hands to nick


Plus the danger of leaving finger prints, I  imagine


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Update


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

Some XR graphics. I like the way they use graphics.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

Yeah, so the procession started in Whitehall Gardens and then looped round down Northumberland Avenue and Great Scotland Yard down to Whitehall itself. It has been going round for a while now - people are walking very slowly. It stopped outside the Department for International Development where there was a short speech relating to that, then turned around down to Downing Street, paused there, then moved on again. When I left people were walking down King Charles St.

The theme was "Red Hands". with lots of people with their hands painted red, which would relate to the thing above about spraypainting, though I didn't see any of that going on. Red Rebels were there obviously. I think I have way too many pictures of them - they are too photogenic, and it's a bit distracting.

I think any large event you see in the next couple of days is going to be a march. In this case the cops clearly didn't know where it was going but they mostly just let it go past, occasionally running around. There were apparently some arrests (I heard a few calls for legal observers, or rather, shouts of "Mic check! (Mic check!) Legal observer! (Legal observer!) Near the front! (Near the front!) On the left! (On the left!)" which does actually work).

Only phone pics but will see what i've got.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 18, 2019)

andysays said:


> Who on this thread are you accusing of childishly and dismissively deriding protesters as stinky?
> 
> 
> TBH, you appear to be primarily responsible for the tortuous diversion the thread had taken.
> ...


Do you disagree with the point that terms such as 'crusty' or 'stinky' are used to dismiss XR and its activists? If not, what the suffering fuck are you dribbling on about?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> I've never heard of DOUBLE X black and white, but the webpage sure looks edgy and yoofy!
> EASTMAN DOUBLE-X Black & White Negative Film 5222/7222 | Motion Picture Film
> 
> Look forward to seeing your results!


It's one of their classic black and white movie stocks - it was used to shoot a lot of famous films like Raging Bull and Schindler's List. Kodak doesn't sell it in individual rolls but other people buy the big 400' rolls and respool them for use in still cameras. I thought I'd give it a shot, it's supposed to have a lot of character.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you disagree with the point that terms such as 'crusty' or 'stinky' are used to dismiss XR and its activists? If not, what the suffering fuck are you dribbling on about?


Sorry, but I've made a few 24 hour bans to stop this thread turning into a complete joke, so you'll have to wait for an answer.  And yes, I agree with your point.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

Red Rebels in a huddle before setting off - this really confused the cops.



Going down Great Scotland Yard and onto Whitehall:







 

Outside the DID:

 

At Downing Street:


----------



## chilango (Oct 18, 2019)

editor has put an s14 on the thread 

Sorry.

...but whatever reservations, and criticisms, I have of XR (and there are many) I don't want them to be lumped in with the manufactured backlash that is promoted by the usual suspects.

XR need to be smart right now, I think they've hit a critical moment.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 187473



I wonder if they're aware that they've appropriated a symbol that is associated by many with Irish loyalism and racism.

How many own goals are these people going to score?


----------



## pesh (Oct 18, 2019)

We have banned Extinction Rebellion protests from London... 
Oh yeah, how's that working out for you?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I wonder if they're aware that they've appropriated a symbol that is associated by many with Irish loyalism and racism.



Like these scumbags...


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

Them as well but I was thinking more along these lines.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 18, 2019)

Nick Cave's q&a email newsletter, which is really good and worth subscribing to, is also called "The Red Hand Files".


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 18, 2019)

Shows the wood ‘pyramid’ structure before and after it was taken down earlier today.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> I know it's all a big joke to you, but whether you support them or not, Extinction Rebellion is an important political development. It's really not appropriate to disrupt this thread to the point that it becomes about something as trite as toilets in Elgin or the quality of the ones near you - unless of course that is your aim.
> 
> I'll ask politely that posters now stay on topic as this thread is reaching the point of no return.



This is the "you plural" sense, I assume.
The Geordies are well ahead on this one.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 18, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Nick Cave's q&a email newsletter, which is really good and worth subscribing to, is also called "The Red Hand Files".




Which leads on to his song being used for Peaky Blinders...and makes me wonder briefly if XR are piggybacking on that with what looks like a triumph of style over substance.

And for a demo in a massive inclusive city on a Friday afternoon I can see one black face in all those pictures. It does look very white, middle class...safe.

How much is this really bothering those in power? I mean, it looks great and everything, some _iconic_ images an’ all. But what’s the plan? Because it looks a bit adrift.


----------



## LDC (Oct 18, 2019)

Disruption + arrests = the government solves the problem (+ maybe citizen's assemblies)

I think that is about the extent of their politics and strategy for social change.


----------



## Athos (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> I wonder if they're aware that they've appropriated a symbol that is associated by many with Irish loyalism and racism.
> 
> How many own goals are these people going to score?



British loyalism, surely?


----------



## pesh (Oct 18, 2019)

And now there's an XR protestor dressed as Boris Johnson halfway up Big Ben rigging banners


----------



## clicker (Oct 18, 2019)

pesh said:


> And now there's an XR protestor dressed as Boris Johnson halfway up Big Ben rigging banners


It can only be an improvement and at least the tourists have got something to photograph.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

8ball said:


> This is the "you plural" sense, I assume.
> The Geordies are well ahead on this one.


Stop fucking about and discuss the topic of the thread please.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> Stop fucking about and discuss the topic of the thread please.



The only thing that surprises me at this point is that you think you are facilitating something at this point, as opposed to causing further disruption.  I think you are just in a mood where you want to shut someone up.  
Actually meaningful discussions about and involving XR are going on in lots of places, so do whatever makes you a tiny bit happier, it makes zero difference to anything.


----------



## eoin_k (Oct 18, 2019)

The Red Hand of Ulster is hardly an exclusively loyalist symbol, it's origins go back much further as a legitimising myth for O'Neill hegemony in the province.




ETA: You can just about make it out in this republican mural, which features four circles bearing the coat of arms of the four province of Ireland. Ulster is third from the right.


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

editor said:


> There's loads of free toilet facilities around central London. Pret - who seem to have a zillion stores - for example have free toilets.



free to anyone who walks in? 

I went in a coffee chain yesterday & the toilets had a door code you had to get from the staff at the till. Might of been a pret but might of been a starbucks or costa.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> free to anyone who walks in?
> 
> I went in a coffee chain yesterday & the toilets had a door code you had to get from the staff at the till. Might of been a pret but might of been a starbucks or costa.


Starbucks are a chief offender when it comes to bog codes.


----------



## BristolEcho (Oct 18, 2019)

Weatherspoon's are usually a good bet for the free toilet dash.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> free to anyone who walks in?
> 
> I went in a coffee chain yesterday & the toilets had a door code you had to get from the staff at the till. Might of been a pret but might of been a starbucks or costa.


I'm really not sure what the ongoing fascination with free toilets is here, but it's really not hard to find access to a free toilet in the West End. And yes, some Prets make you use a code but it's hardly a major challenge to just wait until someone opens the door.

In the hope of ending this discussion - which started when it was claimed that some protesters would either stink or not object to being called 'stinky' - I present you with this map and link of free/nominal fee toilets which I hope will be found useful to anyone with further concerns.

 

If anyone else wants to discuss the provision of free toilets in the West End, I _absolutely insist_ that they take it to another thread and let this thread focus on what the title is about. Thank you.


----------



## maomao (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> free to anyone who walks in?
> 
> I went in a coffee chain yesterday & the toilets had a door code you had to get from the staff at the till. Might of been a pret but might of been a starbucks or costa.


You can alway use Pret bogs and I've even got a free babycino out of them when I didn't have a kid with me. More to see if I could then anything else.


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

Actually, finding somewhere to piss is a major aspect of participating in any major central London demo / protest / manifestation whatever you want to call it. 
Maybe it’s less of an issue if you stand up to pee? Idk. 

For myself anyway, it’s a major aspect of any big public order situation, incl kettles, packed demos, road occupation, anywhere where the police are likely to curtail your movements. 

Which is pertinent to a number of xr’s recent actions. 


Given how wildly off topic most threads seem to go on here I’m a more than a bit bemused by this ban on discussing it.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Given how wildly off topic most threads seem to go on here I’m a more than a bit bemused by this ban on discussing it.


I think it's been covered in incredibly close detail in relation to this protest. What else do you think needs discussing in a thread about Extinction Rebellion? How many more pages of discussion do you think it needs?


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

I have no idea. Til people feel they’ve said what they want to about it? Not my judgement call to make.

I certainly didn’t find your last post on it to really cover it at all, access to pret’s toilets might cover it for you but it certainly doesn’t for me.
getting a door code or waiting for someone to come out so I can sneak in doesn’t work either.

And this does have an impact when I’m deciding whether to go down to an xr thing in central London. 

Can I say that though?


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Update about the protest


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Starbucks are a chief offender when it comes to bog codes.


I can personally vouch for the fact that the one at 143 Blackfriars Road in London did not have a bog code as of 5pm yesterday though it was in desperate need of a good mopping out.
However I did notice that they have changed the signs on the door, the little stick figures (one with and one without a skirt) have been replaced with a pair of narrow isosceles triangles (one pointing up and one down) with a circle at the top which I found very odd.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> I certainly didn’t find your last post on it to really cover it at all, access to pret’s toilets might cover it for you but it certainly doesn’t for me.
> getting a door code or waiting for someone to come out so I can sneak in doesn’t work either.


So you only go to a peaceful protest when you're assured that there are completely satisfactory toilet facilities in place in the immediate vicinity, with Pret's not coming up to scratch for you (even though you could buy a 99p coffee for immediate access) and all the others on the map failing to make the grade for unknown reasons.  Maybe you'd best stay at home then?

PS It's perfectly feasible to visit an XR 'thing' without any fear of arrest or kettling or anything else that will prevent you from going to the loo when you feel like it.. Hundreds, if not thousands of people have managed it at.

Anyway, it's great to see such an important topic as the Extinction Rebellion protests reduced to a conversation about toilets. In a forum about direct action and protests. Magnificent work everyone. This is forming a vital archive for the future.


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

No I might still go but I know I will probably have trouble finding somewhere to piss when I need to, and when that comes up it means me and my mates will break away from the main thing and come back in however long it takes.


I mean I’ve been stuck in kettles for up to 10 hours before now, do you imagine that needing to pee never comes up during that?

your attitude on this stinks.

Your multiple assumptions about me, my experience, and what factors I weigh up when getting into any public order situations and what that decision ends up being, are both laughable and insulting.


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

You’re also telling us all we can’t discuss this topic here whilst making a number of new petty points on the subject which if I was to respond to each one you’d probably take it as a reason to ban me or something. It’s bullshit.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 18, 2019)

^

True Ed. But maybe the polite conversation about public conveniences reflects the effectiveness of XR in the first place. While there’s a general strike and running battles in parts of Catalonia, and in the same week indigenous people and the Ecuador youth have beaten back the government and the IMF (and come back to clean their mess afterwards) we have an ongoing debate on toilet facilities in Pret in central London. Very anarchic.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> free to anyone who walks in?
> 
> I went in a coffee chain yesterday & the toilets had a door code you had to get from the staff at the till. Might of been a pret but might of been a starbucks or costa.


This rates alongside the use of child labour as being amongst the worst sins of global capitalism


----------



## nyxx (Oct 18, 2019)

Oh, the brevity of the level of discussion here is not to be laughed at nor lightened, on pain of ban or derision, I see.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

Badly needed a slash whilst mooching from Euston with Reclaim the Streets, went to nip in to McShits
opposite Kings Cross and the security guard was trying to stop people using the bog without buying food. I told him he was a dirty bugger if he didn’t wash his hands before buying a Big Mac, he let me through, then was quite angry when I left two minutes later sans food.


----------



## cyril_smear (Oct 18, 2019)

nyxx said:


> free to anyone who walks in?
> 
> I went in a coffee chain yesterday & the toilets had a door code you had to get from the staff at the till. Might of been a pret but might of been a starbucks or costa.



Starbucks in my town has a code but if you give a good shove it opens


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 18, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Badly needed a slash whilst mooching from Euston with Reclaim the Streets, went to nip in to McShits
> opposite Kings Cross and the security guard was trying to stop people using the bog without buying food. I told him he was a dirty bugger if he didn’t wash his hands before buying a Big Mac, he let me through, then was quite angry when I left two minutes later sans food.



I always feel too guilty and end up buying a coffee.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

Good piece here: 
The London ban on Extinction Rebellion risks a perilous erosion of public trust | Tim Newburn


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2019)

And more on the bloke up Big Ben



> An Extinction Rebellion activist scaled Big Ben’s tower and unfurled banners calling for action on the climate emergency after a day of protest that marked the culmination of the group’s fortnight-long “October rebellion”.
> 
> The organisation said Ben Atkinson, a 43-year-old tree surgeon, climbed scaffolding surrounding the clock tower without ropes. Wearing a jacket and tie, and what appeared to be a Boris Johnson-type wig, he hung two large banners, reading: “No pride on a dead planet” and “Citizens Assembly”.
> 
> An XR spokesperson said Atkinson climbed the tower to “highlight government inaction on the climate and ecological emergency.”.



Extinction Rebellion targets Big Ben in final day of climate protest


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 18, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Badly needed a slash whilst mooching from Euston with Reclaim the Streets ...


Audi drivers with Reclaim The Streets.

The gentrification of protest is complete!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Audi drivers with Reclaim The Streets.
> 
> The gentrification of protest is complete!



Have you seen the streets recently? Packed full of dawdling, lesser motors. Some of us have the gumption to do something about that situation, some of us just stand and mock.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 18, 2019)

last time i went on a central London march i suddenly came down with a mystery stomach ailment walking to Oxford Circus. It only the fact that I was next to a Starbucks without a door code that I didn't shit in my knickers.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 18, 2019)

On a more serious point; I have not driven into London since RTS came about, except to move the rig in to squats. Without Twyford Down and all that followed, the Hindhead Tunnel probably would be a cutting. The road movement has achieved a shift in thinking. It’s been a battle, Newbury, M11 and far too many to mention.

XR is protesting about saving the whole fucking planet. Unless, as Pickman's model mentioned, the Artic methane issue is now unstoppable and we’re all fucked, ignoring the issue is no longer an option.

In this thread alone there is a lot of sneering at the naivety of some XR from some people with much experience. What is not being seen is any old hands offering to go to their local meeting, get involved and help make them more effective.

I am not 100% convinced the end of the world is nigh, but it seems harder and harder to avoid news of the latest climate disaster somewhere in the world, (my work was badly affected by the typhoon in Japan last week, worst ever, as is becoming the norm...), but I am very much thinking that I need to change my ways, even though that will make not a jot of difference, global society needs to change their ways. How the fuck that can happen if anyone’s guess, so far I have not seen anyone or anything offer even a glimpse of what needs to be done other than XR...


----------



## GarveyLives (Oct 18, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Apparently this was posted on their Facebook page this morning and then deleted:
> 
> Commuters who attacked Extinction Rebellion Tube protesters could face police investigation - latest news
> 
> ...



See:



> _"It is unfortunate that the best recognised movement in the country still hasn’t figured out how to appeal to the people for whom the stakes are probably the highest ..."_



Extinction Rebellion's _hapless_ stance on class and race is a depressing block to its climate justice goal


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 18, 2019)

Fucking Rupert Read. I have history with that twat. Another reason why I won't be embracing XR any time soon. This movement worries me somewhat.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> On a more serious point; I have not driven into London since RTS came about, except to move the rig in to squats. Without Twyford Down and all that followed, the Hindhead Tunnel probably would be a cutting. The road movement has achieved a shift in thinking. It’s been a battle, Newbury, M11 and far too many to mention.
> 
> XR is protesting about saving the whole fucking planet. Unless, as Pickman's model mentioned, the Artic methane issue is now unstoppable and we’re all fucked, ignoring the issue is no longer an option.
> 
> ...



Actually a lot has been done previous to XR. The Green New Deal for example. The trouble was its never been taken seriously.

I don't think there has been sneering. Its only in last couple of pages of this thread that I've seen some posters join in the the media portrayal of XR.

The protest on underground was a gift for the right wing media to have a go. Also see that here in last few pages. Posters popping up to sneer.

I do think there are legitimate criticisms / reservations to be made of XR. This more thoughtful reservations have been aired here. I think that is not sneering.

Also for all I know some posters here already do some community / political stuff. But like me don't have time for everything.

The thing is XR I think thought that there success last time they occupied Central London could be replicated. They haven't been able to do that this time. The state apparatus has been more hard-line this time.

The media Circus isn't so interested. The novelty has worn off. So the right wing media have smelt blood and gone on the attack.

I have been on the ground talking to XR average members and seeing how it's been going.

It hasn't gone well this time. I'm not criticising XR.

As chilango has posted XR are at critical juncture.

The state apparatus is making there more open protest more and more difficult.

Section 14 is going to put people off. The average XR I've met are average Joe's who want government to really do something about climate change. They aren't heavy duty politicos. But , and I like this, want a world that is sustainable and is equitable.

I really do feel the police have set themselves up as arbiters of what is "democratic" protest. Which is to support the status quo.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> Fucking Rupert Read. I have history with that twat. Another reason why I won't be embracing XR any time soon. This movement worries me somewhat.



I know Rupert Read has the same views on immigration as UKIP.

But all the ordinary XR Ive met on the protest this week aren't like him.

I do wish XR would have some kind of internal democracy to reign in people like Read. He doesn't represent the XR I've met.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 18, 2019)

Has it finished?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

Rupert Read on immigration and Green politics:



> We need to move beyond thinking of real economic strength as having anything to do with GDP growth. High levels of immigration create a more divided society, socially and economically, and ecologically weaker and less resilient.
> 
> We Greens need to be absolutely and resolutely pro-immigrant - while turning against large-scale immigration.





> If we do not rein in immigration, that means that we are not taking a host of important issues seriously, like: being on the side of working-class Britons; equality; limits to growth; building a sense of society and community; future generations





> High levels of immigration create a more divided society, socially and economically, and ecologically weaker and less resilient


.

Love immigrants, rather than large-scale immigration

One side of Green politics is this anti immigration stuff. But its not all Greens.

I heard Farage on any questions say he once voted Green.

The Green / environmental movement has many wings. The anti immigration section I don't like at all.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Has it finished?



I thought XR would be out and about in London tomorrow.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> Fucking Rupert Read. I have history with that twat. Another reason why I won't be embracing XR any time soon. This movement worries me somewhat.



I see. He is a leading spokesperson for XR. Oh dear. Not good.


----------



## T & P (Oct 18, 2019)

I’m a bit uncertain about the length of this protest being a good thing. There is more than maximum media exposure to an effective protest, in particular if it risks alienating the public.

IMO shorter-lived stunts but held more frequently would achieve similar media exposure while less likely to annoy and inconvenience people to the point where they switch off XR or even dismiss the urgency of their claims, even when they firmly believe there’s a major environmental problem that needs sorting out. In other words, two weeks of chaos that often include massive disruption to bus routes and even the Underground might be too much and not a good idea I reckon.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 18, 2019)

T & P said:


> I’m a bit uncertain about the length of this protest being a good thing. There is more than maximum media exposure to an effective protest, in particular if it risks alienating the public.
> 
> IMO shorter-lived stunts but held more frequently would achieve similar media exposure while less likely to annoy and inconvenience people to the point where they switch off XR or even dismiss the urgency of their claims, even when they firmly believe there’s a major environmental problem that needs sorting out. In other words, two weeks of chaos that often include massive disruption to bus routes and even the Underground might be too much and not a good idea I reckon.





> they're doing it the wrong way for the right reasons


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 19, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> "Give peas a chance "




A star is born.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 19, 2019)

Oh my god, are those two presenters always like that, not letting their own guests get a single word in?  Why do they even bother having guests at all?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 19, 2019)

Yes they are always like that


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Rupert Read on immigration and Green politics:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In fairness that’s not an anti-immigration position; rather anti-_mass-_migration. Very few political ideologies expound unfettered access for immigrants. Even the Green Party immigration policy, probably the fluffiest of the mainstream, isn’t an open borders one. His views are undoubtedly shared by many other ER supporters. Concern for climate change and concerns regarding large scale immigration may not be obvious bedfellows but they’re hardly mutually exclusive.

Inevitably you have a situation among many Extinction Rebellion supporters where_ the only_ common ground is climate change. Therefore you have such diametrically opposed views as those of the idiots who patronisingly and damagingly single out “black people and ethnic minorities” for special attention, and the likes of Rupert Read, walking hand in hand down Oxford Street. A fair few nazis are likely concerned about global warming too.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Has it finished?



Looks like I was wrong yesterday and it ended on Friday.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Looks like I was wrong yesterday and it ended on Friday.


Faid do's. Thanks for the updates. Great to keep up when I've been under the weather.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 19, 2019)

*unsurprised*

Police seek tougher powers against Extinction Rebellion


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 19, 2019)

My flatmate was coming back from town last night via Trafalgar Square, and said he saw an XR protester on top of Big Ben!


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 19, 2019)

LeytonCatLady said:


> My flatmate was coming back from town last night via Trafalgar Square, and said he saw an XR protester on top of Big Ben!


That was the fella dressed as johnson doing Nazi salutes wasn't it


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

teqniq said:


> *unsurprised*
> 
> Police seek tougher powers against Extinction Rebellion



Yes no surprise. I read the letters linked to that article. Good to see John McDonnell and others criticising Met on use of Section 14 and defending right to protest.

For years environmental groups have been trying to bring climate change to governments attention. The Green New Deal was written ten years ago. And ignored.

If XR hadn't blocked roads and taken over for short periods central London the issue would still be largely ignored.

This time I've heard more of the "they've made their point" line of argument. Which means can XR go away so I can drive my car around.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

I dispute the idea that XR have greatly inconvenienced the public.

Oxford Circus for example. As long as tube isn't disrupted most people weren't inconvenienced by XR occupation of Oxford Circus. 

It actually made area more pleasant for pedestrians and cyclists as traffic was reduced in West End.

XR occupation of Bank for a day- City of London had made Bank car free for some time from 7am to 7pm. 

I don't think a two week protest about an issue that will endanger everyone's future is unreasonable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> This time I've heard more of the "they've made their point" line of argument. Which means can XR go away so I can drive my car around.


when we have extreme weather for a period i expect they will, canute-like, say the weather's made its point and demand the return of clement conditions


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

Hello  i feel like ive just been let off the naughty step.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Yes no surprise. I read the letters linked to that article. Good to see John McDonnell and others criticising Met on use of Section 14 and defending right to protest.
> 
> For years environmental groups have been trying to bring climate change to governments attention. The Green New Deal was written ten years ago. And ignored.
> 
> ...



I remember being involved in climate change protests back in the early 90s. My eventual decision to stop protesting was based on the way the police were responding in increasingly extreme ways, the press hysteria, the fact that my involvement had come to the attention of my bosses at work, and the fact that my family were worried about me and were asking me to stop too. 

Ironically, the job I have now was offered to me because of my involvement in such protests and am currently involved in a campaign to raise awareness of climate change at work.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

In a successful individualist action Roger Hallam threatened to hunger strike to get his university to disinvest from fossil fuels i believe.  Not advocating a mass 'die in' as any sort of solution to the hellish problems coming our way, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a step in that direction.

Working class involvement  is necessary to move thing forward, but 'consciousness raising' will be essential first.  i'm not convinced that the ABC of climate change = social disaster, likely very soon, is properly appreciated.  Are there any initiatives coming along? punchy pamphlets, speaking programs involving celebs etc, targetted at the TU movement and wc communities?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Hello  i feel like ive just been let off the naughty step.


Welcome back


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

Ditto friend, how was it for you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Ditto friend, how was it for you?


Invigorating


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)




----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

Remember the pamplet 'Protest and Survive' from CND?  something sharp about the looming catastrophe could be very popular, a mail shot to each home.  XR are wealthy.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Invigorating


Did you two get a temp ban or something?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

pamphlet


Miss-Shelf said:


> Did you two get a temp ban or something?


Indeed.  Thanks for noticing the absence of the finest contributer and pickman's model


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Remember the pamplet 'Protest and Survive' from CND?  something sharp about the looming catastrophe could be very popular, a mail shot to each home.  XR are wealthy.


i always fear that if we show how truly imminent climate change is, and how horrifying the outcome, we drive people into fear and paralysis. There probably is a middle ground where we give hope, but then too much positivity is when people feel that there isn't actually any urgency here - the *it'll be sorted out by politicians and scientists* idea.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> pamphlet
> 
> Indeed.  Thanks for noticing the absence of the finest contributer and pickman's model


that joke only works if anyone at any point might think pickman's model might be "the finest contributer". :-p


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> that joke only works if anyone at any point might think pickman's model might be "the finest contributer". :-p



 Hmmm.  my jokes are rarely funny.  Need a new script writer.  Might have offered Pickman's model the job but now im aware that he aint up to it.. i'll ask editor i think.  He/she very humourous.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Hmmm.  my jokes are rarely funny.  Need a new script writer.  Might have offered Pickman's model the job but now im aware that he aint up to it.. i'll ask editor i think.  He/she very humourous.


last time i checked editor was a he, but you never know....


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 19, 2019)

Not sure if this has been shared but it's a good read from XR Scotland with more analysis that XR London /UK is demonstrating to date


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> i always fear that if we show how truly imminent climate change is, and how horrifying the outcome, we drive people into fear and paralysis. There probably is a middle ground where we give hope, but then too much positivity is when people feel that there isn't actually any urgency here - the *it'll be sorted out by politicians and scientists* idea.


ive only come to feel the fear and urgency recently Jennastan,   im guessing, but if a Left wing semi fanatic politically conscious geezer such as i have only recently realised the desperate shit thats coming, there is a reasonable chance that there are many who still need a nudge.  Although i understand your argument, im less concerned about fear and paralysis, and more anxious that ignorance about the issues is an impediment.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> ive only come to feel the fear and urgency recently Jennastan,   im guessing, but if a Left wing semi fanatic politically conscious geezer such as i have only recently realised the desperate shit thats coming, there is a reasonable chance that there are many who still need a nudge.  Although i understand your argument, im less concerned about fear and paralysis, and more anxious that ignorance about the issues is an impediment.


I like to point out to people that the things we need to do to halt climate change are also good things to do in and of themselves, because they promote equality, improve quality of life, reduce the impact of industry, free society from consumerism, etc. - my argument would be that even if climate change isn't happening these are good things that we should be doing, and then engaging people that way. 

Maybe fear works for some people but i see people for whom fear is not a motivating force, or at least not in the way we would want it to be.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 19, 2019)

And i like those arguments too.  But so far the Left has failed to convince enough people to radically transform society on the basis of using a similar rationalist appeal?  On the box the other evening a bloke was asked if he was concerned out global warming and what he thought about XR.  The dickhead said that we could do with it being a few degrees warmer, and saw it as an opportunity to sell more drinks and barbicues..

He may not have been typical, but i feel that many many people are largely unaware of the seriousness.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 19, 2019)

redcogs said:


> But so far the Left has failed to convince enough people to radically transform society on the basis of using a similar rationalist appeal?  On the box the other evening a bloke was asked if he was concerned out global warming and what he thought about XR.  The dickhead said that we could do with it being a few degrees warmer, and saw it as an opportunity to sell more drinks and barbicues..


I'm not sure the left have tried very hard tbh; I'm used to seeing it dismissed as a middle class or purely western concern. I'm hoping that changes now. 

I just feel that we ought not to scare people off who maybe have just come to their first meeting for years, or ever. A positive message of change can never hurt. As for the dickheads we'll never change them, we just need to outnumber them I think, and make them look like the dinosaurs they are.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

quotes messed up


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> In fairness that’s not an anti-immigration position; rather anti-_mass-_migration. Very few political ideologies expound unfettered access for immigrants. Even the Green Party immigration policy, probably the fluffiest of the mainstream, isn’t an open borders one. His views are undoubtedly shared by many other ER supporters. Concern for climate change and concerns regarding large scale immigration may not be obvious bedfellows but they’re hardly mutually exclusive.
> 
> Inevitably you have a situation among many Extinction Rebellion supporters where_ the only_ common ground is climate change. Therefore you have such diametrically opposed views as those of the idiots who patronisingly and damagingly single out “black people and ethnic minorities” for special attention, and the likes of Rupert Read, walking hand in hand down Oxford Street. A fair few nazis are likely concerned about global warming too.




Love immigrants, rather than large-scale immigration
Ive just re read the article. The whole tone of it is anti immigration.

It comes out with all the usual stuff. Like immigrants pushing down wages and conditions of work.

You say undoubtedly that many other XR supporters share Reads views. What is your evidence of that? I have talked to lot of XR supporters at this protest, previous protest and locally. I can assure you they don't share Reads views.

As well as the usual I'm not racist but arguments he also tries to link curtailing immigration to climate change. That every immigrant here puts up this countries carbon footprint.

This is blaming migrants for a carbon based economy. Its the carbon based industry that is the problem not migrants.

Its really insidious argument. Reduce immigration help to save the planet.

When he is talking about "mass" /high immigration ,if one reads the article, its about the recent immigration from other EU countries



> This, incidentally, is why Gordon Brown was so keen on New Labour's high-immigration policy



This is no different from Farage. Farage would argue he is not racist.

So for Read "mass" migration is free movement within EU.

If that is his defintition of mass migration then its imo anti immigration argument in practise.

Worse is his support of the idea that immigration reducss social cohesion , a more divided society and is against the interests of "working class Britons".

The last reference to "Britons" is in an area like mine of working class Black British whose parents came from Carribbean obvious reference to white people.

I thought this country had got beyond this kind of nativist view of society. Read is using climate change to give it new credibility.

On reducing social cohesion. I live in London spent my time here working alongside immigrants. My partner is one. Lack of social cohesion in this country is caused by the gross increase in equality since Thatcher. That and austerity.

Its not immigrants.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Not sure if this has been shared but it's a good read from XR Scotland with more analysis that XR London /UK is demonstrating to date




Yes another poster has shared those banners. But the Twitter message from XR Scotland no.

I took photo of the decolonise banner in Marsham street.

I'm glad that XR Scotland are starting open debate on this.

From XR Scotland Twitter post by Miss-Shelf 




> -	 *Migration caused by impacts of climate and ecological emergency is met by hostile border policies that leave people to drown and keeps them in indefinite detention.*
> 
> Yes, the crisis will come for everyone. But there are massively unjust ways this is damaging some people more than others. And when we erase that, when we ignore the voices of those on the frontlines and who have the most at stake, when we focus only on ‘our children’ and not the people who are dying now, *we risk leaving space for eco-fascism. By refusing to name the causes of both the climate crisis and other social injustices–colonialism and capitalism—*XR will continue to alienate the people who are already living at the sharp end of the system that is ultimately killing us all.
> 
> In the run-up to the October International Rebellion, members of XR Scotland chose to highlight these issues, and to respond to the concerns of women of colour in our group* being dismissed by key figures in XR UK*, by creating banners reading ‘DECOLONISE XR’ and ‘CLIMATE STRUGGLE = CLASS STRUGGLE’. Many people, and other groups in XR such as Extinction Rebellion Youth, Global Justice Rebellion and XR Internationalist Solidarity Network, applauded these banners. Others in XR UK



I read this as disagreement with Hallam and Read- key figures in XR.

I think XR Scotland are right.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2019)

Overheard conversations today:

XR is a money-making scam
XR admitting to be hypocrites still means they’re hypocrites
It’s all about brown people breeding too fast (dealt with this one a bunch of times- this one wasn’t going to be a productive one so left it)


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

How are you Miss-Shelf ?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> How are you Miss-Shelf ?


In relation to XR?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> In relation to XR?



Its been a hard week for XR in London I guess you were helping so wondered how ur now its finished.

I guess it's been pretty exhausting.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 19, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> i*it'll be sorted out by politicians and scientists* idea.


Not if the best they can come up with is plastic trees to absorb CO2 or XR's idea of getting rid of gas boilers. What would you replace them with?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 19, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Its been a hard week for XR in London I guess you were helping so wondered how ur now its finished.
> 
> I guess it's been pretty exhausting.


To be honest I only did some arrest support as I have had a huge amount of work in my day job and just couldn't split myself in 10 pieces.   so I've been involved but from a distance which has been interesting [and a lot less tiring]
My london based group have a lot to think about now and discuss but we're pretty much all on the same page as XR scotland


----------



## smokedout (Oct 19, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> Maybe fear works for some people but i see people for whom fear is not a motivating force, or at least not in the way we would want it to be.



The fear of imminent death, not a long drawn out struggle for survival over decades, but imminent horrible death was not enough to inspire the movement necessary to end nuclear proliferation.  Fear won't work.  Neither will religious grief.  Anger that this is being done to us by the rich, the hope of something better and an antagonistic movement grounded in class struggle might work, but in many ways this all in it together love the cops/work with the rich approach offered by XR is the opposite of that.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 19, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Not if the best they can come up with is plastic trees to absorb CO2 or XR's idea of getting rid of gas boilers. What would you replace them with?


i hope you realise i was saying that ironically.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 20, 2019)

Jennastan said:


> i hope you realise i was saying that ironically.


Sorry I can't tell anymore.


----------



## LDC (Oct 20, 2019)

smokedout said:


> The fear of imminent death, not a long drawn out struggle for survival over decades, but imminent horrible death was not enough to inspire the movement necessary to end nuclear proliferation.  Fear won't work.  Neither will religious grief.  Anger that this is being done to us by the rich, the hope of something better and an antagonistic movement grounded in class struggle might work, but in many ways this all in it together love the cops/work with the rich approach offered by XR is the opposite of that.



Posted that on the FB page of the XR group where I live, will report on the fall out!


----------



## 8ball (Oct 20, 2019)

smokedout said:


> The fear of imminent death, not a long drawn out struggle for survival over decades, but imminent horrible death was not enough to inspire the movement necessary to end nuclear proliferation.  Fear won't work.  Neither will religious grief.  Anger that this is being done to us by the rich, the hope of something better and an antagonistic movement grounded in class struggle might work, but in many ways this all in it together love the cops/work with the rich approach offered by XR is the opposite of that.



Liked for the first insight. Re: your second point, I don’t think that will work either.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 20, 2019)

redcogs said:


> The dickhead said that we could do with it being a few degrees warmer,


A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 20, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.



or it could mean many more deaths in the summer from the heat, and water shortages, more disease, invasive species - huge infrastructure costs - and complete collapse of the local eco system meaning we wouldn't be able to grow anything.

Plus many more refugees leaving places that are uninhabitable leading to more wars over resources and all the problems that that will bring.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 20, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.



according to Hallam:

"The IPCC reported in October 2018 that we have to reduce carbon emissions by 40% inthe next 12 years to have a 50% chance of avoiding ‘catastrophe’. And yet in 2018 emissions went up from an increase of 1.6% in 2017 to an increase of 2.7%. Carbon levels went up by 3.5 parts per million (ppm) in the past year to reach 415ppm. *We are now only ten years away from 450ppm ,the level equivalent to 2 C average temperature rise.  *We are looking here a the slow and agonising suffering and death of billions of people"


----------



## redcogs (Oct 20, 2019)

As you realise im very strong on cut and paste technology


----------



## andysays (Oct 20, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> A few degrees warmer would mean less use of central heating cutting CO2 and could mean being able to grow more exotic fruit and veg at home cutting the CO2 in flying them over here.



It _could_ do, if global warming was confined to the British Isles, but as the name suggests, it's rather more widespread than that


----------



## BigTom (Oct 20, 2019)

andysays said:


> It _could_ do, if global warming was confined to the British Isles, but as the name suggests, it's rather more widespread than that



Also worth remembering one of the likely outcomes of climate change for the uk is that the atlantic conveyor stops and we get a lot, lot colder. You only have to look at other places in North America and Russia on a similar latitude to the UK to see how much colder we would get if this happens.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 20, 2019)

redcogs said:


> As you realise im very strong on cut and paste technology


But not very strong on irony.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 20, 2019)

Sorry WouldBe  my misunderstanding.. i didn't mean to come across as some finger wagging git.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 20, 2019)

redcogs said:


> according to Hallam:
> 
> "The IPCC reported in October 2018 that we have to reduce carbon emissions by 40% inthe next 12 years to have a 50% chance of avoiding ‘catastrophe’. And yet in 2018 emissions went up from an increase of 1.6% in 2017 to an increase of 2.7%. Carbon levels went up by 3.5 parts per million (ppm) in the past year to reach 415ppm. *We are now only ten years away from 450ppm ,the level equivalent to 2 C average temperature rise.  *We are looking here a the slow and agonising suffering and death of billions of people"



Andrew Neil interviewed XR activist and spokesperson ‘Zion Lights’ on those very apocalyptic predictions.



To say she floundered in her responses would be an understatement.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 21, 2019)

i didn't think that Zion Lights was too bad with her responses Marty1.  Neil is an intimidating rotweiller of an interviewer, and by focussing on a variety of data he is able to obfuscate the argument.  Its his job.  In the end, it comes down to who we are inclined to agree with doesn't it?  i prefer not to agree with those whose entire career has involved speaking to the vested interests of capital and the continuation of a fossil fuel economy.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 21, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i didn't think that Zion Lights was too bad with her responses Marty1.  Neil is an intimidating rotweiller of an interviewer, and by focussing on a variety of data he is able to obfuscate the argument.  Its his job.  In the end, it comes down to who we are inclined to agree with doesn't it?  i prefer not to agree with those whose entire career has involved speaking to the vested interests of capital and the continuation of a fossil fuel economy.



Andrew Neil certainly is a Rottweiler but in this instance he was remarkably soft by his standards.

As for ‘vested interests’, Neil was stating IPCC reports to challenge XR false claims of billions dying  (no scientific basis for this whatsoever) to which Zion actually admitted XR had clearly and intentionally sensationalised for gaining public and media attention, in her own words ‘alarmist language works’.

According to XR co-founder Stuart Basden, XR isn’t about climate change but rather a front for a political agenda.



> And I’m here to say that XR isn’t about the climate. You see, the climate’s breakdown is a symptom of a toxic system of that has infected the ways we relate to each other as humans and to all life. This was exacerbated when European ‘civilisation’ was spread around the globe through cruelty and violence (especially) over the last 600 years of colonialism, although the roots of the infections go much further back.



Extinction Rebellion isn’t about the Climate


----------



## redcogs (Oct 21, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Andrew Neil certainly is a Rottweiler but in this instance he was remarkably soft by his standards.
> 
> As for ‘vested interests’, Neil was stating IPCC reports to challenge XR false claims of billions dying  (no scientific basis for this whatsoever) to which Zion actually admitted XR had clearly and intentionally sensationalised for gaining public and media attention, in her own words ‘alarmist language works’.
> 
> ...



i don't know about you Marty1, but i have found that debate about scientific veracity is very similar to debates between economists. Inconclusive.

How often have scientists changed their views as more data reveals ever greater complexity in each particular field of enquiry?  Its the scientific method to do so.  Climate change science is replete with people who have radically altered their public stances no?  i believe that leaves the unscientific public in a reasonably healthy state of generalised scepticism, and in such circumstances there is an obligation upon those who are dedicated to social and economic change to exploit that uncertainty.  So, on this, i agree with Stuart Basden of XR.  And i can't take Andrew Neil's deliberate confusions seriously.


----------



## Jennastan (Oct 21, 2019)

Andrew Neil blocked my Twitter account because I disagreed with him on climate change. In fact he called me stupid, then blocked me and i regularly tweet about the science. I think if they really wanted to know about the science they could invite on one of the more media savvy IPCC scientists but they always seem to prefer to have on sceptics and inexperienced campaigners. Can't think why.

While i don't want to say billions will die - there is a lot of science around cliff edge collapses, feedback loops, and the likely death of the oceans much earlier than previously thought. It's certainly a possibilty.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 21, 2019)

Climate change science has had almost total consensus for years that man-made climate change is real.  You have to really go searching for selectively edited data to find anything else.  The debate merely surrounds how quickly and severely it is happening, and how bad the consequences will be.


----------



## andysays (Oct 21, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Climate change science has had almost total consensus for years that man-made climate change is real.  You have to really go searching for selectively edited data to find anything else.  The debate merely surrounds how quickly and severely it is happening, and how bad the consequences will be.


And that really *should* be the end of it, but there are still idiots who will say "yeah but, one specific prediction that was made ten years ago turned out not to be precisely correct, so I'm going to claim that the whole thing is bullshit"...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

andysays said:


> And that really *should* be the end of it, but there are still idiots who will say "yeah but, one specific prediction that was made ten years ago turned out not to be precisely correct, so I'm going to claim that the whole thing is bullshit"...



There have also been previous predictions based on targets we have steamed right through, where the actual effects are still a far way down the line.  The Jury is still out on whether concerns over hitting 350 ppm CO2 were groundless, but I’m not sure whether by this time we were even meant to be seeing these upticks in extreme weather.

Humans don’t really seem to be set up for thinking on such timescales, it seems not to be built into our evolved way of dealing with threats.

XR’s shrill warnings of incoming binary apocalypse seem to both confirm and acknowledge this.


----------



## LDC (Oct 21, 2019)

I have no idea if this is a spoof or what...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> There have also been previous predictions based on targets we have steamed right through, where the actual effects are still a far way down the line.  The Jury is still out on whether concerns over hitting 350 ppm CO2 were groundless, but I’m not sure whether by this time we were even meant to be seeing these upticks in extreme weather.
> 
> Humans don’t really seem to be set up for thinking on such timescales, it seems not to be built into our evolved way of dealing with threats.
> 
> XR’s shrill warnings of incoming binary apocalypse seem to both confirm and acknowledge this.


there's this from siberia from 2005 Siberians fear minus 30 is too warm for comfort

a 20 degree change in temperature, even from -50 to -30, is something to concern - and that was 14 years ago


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I have no idea if this is a spoof or what...
> 
> View attachment 187740





If I had to guess, I’d say that’s Anarchist Federation doing a much-needed spot of shit stirring.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 21, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I have no idea if this is a spoof or what...
> 
> View attachment 187740


Got to be a piss take, it's the 'least fortunate, on who we financially depend' that's a giveaway. Obviously true but no landlord would ever say that until we have them on the end of a rope pleading for mercy


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Got to be a piss take, it's the 'least fortunate, on who we financially depend' that's a giveaway. Obviously true but no landlord would ever say that until we have them on the end of a rope pleading for mercy



Forwarded to local XR's.  Slightly pretending it's for clarification, but mostly because I want them to see it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 21, 2019)

It is pretty straight-faced  most of the time anyway


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It is pretty straight-faced  most of the time anyway



No one is dipping a toe in just yet, despite active posting on other topics.
Might be a "_can we get a supervisor on aisle 12?_" situation... 

edit: actually looks like a case of "_delete branding clarity violation_" - wonder whether they'll reply
edit2: is back up but no comments on it


----------



## smokedout (Oct 21, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i didn't think that Zion Lights was too bad with her responses Marty1.  Neil is an intimidating rotweiller of an interviewer, and by focussing on a variety of data he is able to obfuscate the argument.  Its his job.  In the end, it comes down to who we are inclined to agree with doesn't it?  i prefer not to agree with those whose entire career has involved speaking to the vested interests of capital and the continuation of a fossil fuel economy.



I'm not aware of any climatologist in the world who backs Hallam's doomsday scenario, at best a couple have supported using the absolute most extreme scenarios as a way of scaring people into action, but none endorse the wilder claims.  And when one of your key demands is to tell the truth about climate science then repeatedly misrepresenting the science isn;t a great look.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I'm not aware of any climatologist in the world who backs Hallam's doomsday scenario, at best a couple have supported using the absolute most extreme scenarios as a way of scaring people into action, but none endorse the wilder claims.  And when one of your key demands is to tell the truth about climate science then repeatedly misrepresenting the science isn;t a great look.



Most of my reading on climate stuff is a few years out of date, but yeah, there is a whiff of millenarian cult to a good bit of the sloganeering I’ve seen.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2019)

smokedout said:


> I'm not aware of any climatologist in the world who backs Hallam's doomsday scenario, at best a couple have supported using the absolute most extreme scenarios as a way of scaring people into action, but none endorse the wilder claims.  And when one of your key demands is to tell the truth about climate science then repeatedly misrepresenting the science isn;t a great look.



I agree with your last point, but climatologists give a range of possible futures in their predictions, not just one. And those predictions range from 'very bad' to 'oh shiiiiit' depending on which of the uncertainties such as feedback loops happens. Some of those things could happen very quickly indeed, such as the breaking up of the Greenland ice sheet. Some experts think it may already be too late to save the Greenland ice sheet now whatever we do. 

There is consensus that nowhere near enough is being done and that there is no time left for dithering - we've already had more than 30 years of dithering and time is running out.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> No one is dipping a toe in just yet, despite active posting on other topics.
> Might be a "_can we get a supervisor on aisle 12?_" situation...
> 
> edit: actually looks like a case of "_delete branding clarity violation_" - wonder whether they'll reply
> edit2: is back up but no comments on it



Comment direct from XR (only a local group, admitedly): "_Spoof. We aim to change the status quo. No business as usual we say. Pass this on please_"


----------



## pug (Oct 21, 2019)

https://rebellion.earth/act-now/resources/communities/community-groups/

Under professions and skills - Landlords


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

pug said:


> Community Groups - Extinction Rebellion
> 
> Under professions and skills - Landlords



Yeah, trying to get an opinion from local group about existence of that.

2 Facebook groups, one marked as “official” (a third the size of the presumably “non official one).

Quite a few members/watchers; no posts or comments on either group in the last month.

Has a bit of a “stink eye corner” look to it, in other words. Imo.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with your last point, but climatologists give a range of possible futures in their predictions, not just one. And those predictions range from 'very bad' to 'oh shiiiiit' depending on which of the uncertainties such as feedback loops happens. Some of those things could happen very quickly indeed, such as the breaking up of the Greenland ice sheet. Some experts think it may already be too late to save the Greenland ice sheet now whatever we do.
> 
> There is consensus that nowhere near enough is being done and that there is no time left for dithering - we've already had more than 30 years of dithering and time is running out.



And it’s worth remembering that the central estimates we see are not the mean of the true skewed distribution but just the 50/50 as determined by committees that also have an institutional tendency to err on the conservative side, ie underestimate the effect.  The true best estimate is thus statistically a fair bit worse than the published central projection.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 21, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i don't know about you Marty1, but i have found *that debate about scientific veracity *is very similar to debates between economists. Inconclusive.


What debate was that now?


> How often have scientists changed their views as more data reveals ever greater complexity in each particular field of enquiry?  Its the scientific method to do so.  Climate change science is replete with people who have radically altered their public stances no?  i believe that leaves the unscientific public in a reasonably healthy state of generalised scepticism,


 This is just pompous twaddle. You have no clue what you are talking about that why your bullshitting is all vague and handwavy. 
Here is a basic introductory text book into the topic, its light on the maths so should be easy to follow. If you do not want to pay for that, then try a free online course
https://www.edx.org/course/making-sense-of-climate-science-denial-2
It has been specifically set up for non science majors. 
Go away, do some reading and learning and stop making a tit out of yourself.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

kabbes said:


> And it’s worth remembering that the central estimates we see are not the mean of the true skewed distribution but just the 50/50 as determined by committees that also have an institutional tendency to err on the conservative side, ie underestimate the effect.  The true best estimate is thus statistically a fair bit worse than the published central projection.



i) Do you have any evidence for that?

ii) Out of XR’s view (lets go with Hallam’s personal pronouncements, just for the sake of argument), vs. the consensus of the most recent IPCC reports, do you have an opinion on who is closest?

Edit: not being disingenuous - my reading on the whole subject is admittedly a few years out of date.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 21, 2019)

ferrelhadley said:


> What debate was that now?
> This is just pompous twaddle. You have no clue what you are talking about that why your bullshitting is all vague and handwavy.
> Here is a basic introductory text book into the topic, its light on the maths so should be easy to follow. If you do not want to pay for that, then try a free online course
> https://www.edx.org/course/making-sense-of-climate-science-denial-2
> ...



Well well you fucking unpleasant dickhead.   Is it because you are incapable of reading a full sentence that you fail so abysmally to understand something that even my dim witted brain damaged whippet can appreciate, namely that there is disagreement amongst scientists about the likely outcome of climate change?  my incapably stupid dog can also appreciate the difference between making a short general point on a forum and writing and submitting a fact and figure assessed dissertation.

As for your offensive reference to being handwavy - perhaps you would like to explain?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Oct 21, 2019)

pug said:


> Community Groups - Extinction Rebellion
> 
> Under professions and skills - Landlords


Lol.

Also what's an executive coach? I thought it was a posh bus


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol.
> 
> Also what's an executive coach? I thought it was a posh bus



I find it hard to scoff too much when I compare it to the weirdness and wank of some lefty groups.

On that point, they seem to have done quite well on avoiding petty tribalisms so far (the main schism at the moment seems to be between the “mainstream” and the hardcore vegimentalists).


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 21, 2019)

If people are trying to follow these kind of discussions but perhaps struggling to sort the wheat from the chaffe, some simple rules you may wish to apply?
1) If they say "scientists say" but do not link to at the least a peer reviewed study, treat their claims as highly suspicious. At best they are likely to miss much of the nuance of what scientists said at worst they are just making it up. 
2) If they start waffling about "climate debates" also treat their comments as highly suspicious. Generally those kind of comments are akin to "why wont scientists debate evolution". Where science is debated is in the peer reviewed literature. Its really unfollowable for most people, but that is what you get with a very technical field built on a foundation of maths and physics. 
3) Anyone who starts talking about "models". Also a red flag, almost all of physics for the past 500 years has been about building mathematical models of the universe around us to try to make predictions and test ideas. It is literally what Johannes Kepler, Galileo and Newton were doing. The fact that climate science relies on models is because it is a branch of physics. (quick primer from NOAA on them.)
4) When people start talking vaguely about feedback loops (I seen the XR bod on the youtube thing with Andrew Neil pull this stunt and others on here), again bit of a red flag someone is about to bullshit and bluster. Sometimes its how climate change is only a threat from "computer feedback loops"  and other times its "worst than we thought" because of some mystery feedbacks. Svante Arrhenius, the first man to predict that our CO2 might warm the planet, knew about feedback loops, in his case his hand calculation included warming from the extra water vapor. They are not something that only eco-activists or right wing billionaire owned think tanks know about. 
If you have insomnia, here is about 60 pages of the IPCC talking about them. 
5)If someone starts talking about methane..... They are probably talking crap. There is many doomer blogs that spout unending predictions of near term doom invoking methane and often articles will appear in mainstream press about it only to get shredded by the actual scientists. 
Scientists explain what New York Magazine article on "The Uninhabitable Earth" gets wrong


If people are interested or concerned\panicked about these issues then I would encourage you to go to the science forum and ask there. Better yet find one of the many online courses where actual scientists are keen to teach you about this science.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 21, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Well well you fucking unpleasant dickhead.   Is it because you are incapable of reading a full sentence that you fail so abysmally to understand something that even my dim witted brain damaged whippet can appreciate,






> ? my incapably stupid dog can also appreciate the difference between making a short general point on a forum and writing and submitting a fact and figure assessed dissertation.



Try decaf for a few days, see how it works out for you.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2019)

ferrelhadley said:


> If people are trying to follow these kind of discussions but perhaps struggling to sort the wheat from the chaffe, some simple rules you may wish to apply?
> 1) If they say "scientists say" but do not link to at the least a peer reviewed study, treat their claims as highly suspicious. At best they are likely to miss much of the nuance of what scientists said at worst they are just making it up.
> 2) If they start waffling about "climate debates" also treat their comments as highly suspicious. Generally those kind of comments are akin to "why wont scientists debate evolution". Where science is debated is in the peer reviewed literature. Its really unfollowable for most people, but that is what you get with a very technical field built on a foundation of maths and physics.
> 3) Anyone who starts talking about "models". Also a red flag, almost all of physics for the past 500 years has been about building mathematical models of the universe around us to try to make predictions and test ideas. It is literally what Johannes Kepler, Galileo and Newton were doing. The fact that climate science relies on models is because it is a branch of physics. (quick primer from NOAA on them.)
> ...


You patronising git.  I have 'been taught" about this stuff - first time by scientists at the Hadley Centre best part of a decade ago. I can tell you that those that study this stuff are generally waaaaaay more worried by it and its implications than those that don't.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> i) Do you have any evidence for that?
> 
> ii) Out of XR’s view (lets go with Hallam’s personal pronouncements, just for the sake of argument), vs. the consensus of the most recent IPCC reports, do you have an opinion on who is closest?
> 
> Edit: not being disingenuous - my reading on the whole subject is admittedly a few years out of date.


My evidence is, without being disingenuous or facetious myself, 20 years of having to present statistical projections to boards and committees.  It’s just how it goes — what goes into the official report is never the best estimate of the full statistical distribution (including allowance for parameter and model uncertainty) unless there is some kind of regulatory mandate for it.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

kabbes said:


> My evidence is, without being disingenuous or facetious myself, 20 years of having to present statistical projections to boards and committees.  It’s just how it goes — what goes into the official report is never the best estimate of the full statistical distribution (including allowance for parameter and model uncertainty) unless there is some kind of regulatory mandate for it.



I didn’t ask specifically about which is best (which can get skewed for an assortment of reasons), but why the IPCC should necessarily err on the side of the conservative.

Plenty of parties take your reasoning and use it to imply the opposite view. 

Also, you dismiss comment on who is likely to be more reliable out of Hallam vs, say, the IPCC.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You patronising git.  I have 'been taught" about this stuff - first time by scientists at the Hadley Centre best part of a decade ago. I can tell you that those that study this stuff are generally waaaaaay more worried by it and its implications than those that don't.



On the subject of “feedback loops”, it’s good to be careful about the distinction between what could be argued to be bugs in simulations, vs. real physical effects that become amplified by conditions passing certain thresholds.

As someone who has spent years working with simulations of a different kind, my main comment would be “careful, now”.

When biodiversity loss (personally, the scariest factor for me) becomes an input into complex models, we’re well into headfuck land.

Even working out ecological system patterns with very slight changes in conditions, then relating them back to reality, can get a bit crazy (was kind of in that field when I left academia).

tl;dr - I think working out how much trouble we’re in, and what kind, is near impossible, but we do seem to be quite far into the “bad times” zone.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 21, 2019)

We're the proverbial frog in the saucepan of water, slowly boiling to death. We don't know exactly what the temperature of the water is right now, but we know it's going up and that it's dangerously hot already. XR is an alarm call that we need to jump out right now. While I agree that overstating the science is foolish - it really doesn't need overstating to be alarming. But I also think it misses the point of XR a bit to choose what one vocal person associated with it is saying and point at that as what XR is. It surely doesn't work like that, and shouldn't work like that.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 21, 2019)

8ball said:


> I didn’t ask specifically about which is best (which can get skewed for an assortment of reasons), but why the IPCC should necessarily err on the side of the conservative.
> 
> Plenty of parties take your reasoning and use it to imply the opposite view.
> 
> Also, you dismiss comment on who is likely to be more reliable out of Hallam vs, say, the IPCC.


It’s true that there will be some parties that want to engender panic.  But when the, say, UN have a report on climate change, you can bet your bottom dollar the base case there will be an understated version of a median that is less than the mean.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> As for your offensive reference to being handwavy - perhaps you would like to explain?


I take it this is your first coming across ferrel - dr sausages - the _SCIENTIST!_.

Ignore the berk mate, he's a joke in P&P a "evidence based politics" loon


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I take it this is your first coming across ferrel - dr sausages - the _SCIENTIST!_.
> 
> Ignore the berk mate, he's a joke in P&P a "evidence based politics" loon


He's a joke in every forum he graces with his presence


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 22, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I take it this is your first coming across ferrel - dr sausages - the _SCIENTIST!_.
> 
> Ignore the berk mate, he's a joke in P&P a "evidence based politics" loon



‘dr sausages’ ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We're the proverbial frog in the saucepan of water, slowly boiling to death. We don't know exactly what the temperature of the water is right now, but we know it's going up and that it's dangerously hot already. XR is an alarm call that we need to jump out right now. While I agree that overstating the science is foolish - it really doesn't need overstating to be alarming. But I also think it misses the point of XR a bit to choose what one vocal person associated with it is saying and point at that as what XR is. It surely doesn't work like that, and shouldn't work like that.


I thought the point of the frog thing was the frog doesn't notice it getting dangerously hot


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I take it this is your first coming across ferrel - dr sausages - the _SCIENTIST!_.
> 
> Ignore the berk mate, he's a joke in P&P a "evidence based politics" loon



Thanks redsquirrel.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 22, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> ‘dr sausages’ ?


Nickname either DotCommunist or butchersapron came up with. Can't remember which, or why. But it's pretty good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> ‘dr sausages’ ?


Ferrelhadley has a conviction for adulterating sausages hence Dr Sausages


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Ferrelhadley has a conviction for adulterating sausages hence Dr Sausages


i'd love to learn more Pickman's model


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> i'd love to learn more Pickman's model


A charge of preventing the lawful burial of a body was allowed to lie on the file, but it's a sorry tale from the days when fh was a menial butcher's boy who came in one day to find the butcher dead from a massive coronary behind the counter in the middle of making Cumberland sausages. I think I can leave the remainder of the story to your vivid imagination.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

The joy of the Urban way encapsulated in a single post


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought the point of the frog thing was the frog doesn't notice it getting dangerously hot



I think lbj’s point is that this is indeed the case, and the frog needs a prod.

Obv we’re *all* the frog, so it kind of needs to prod itself, but y’know, analogies...  

And jumping out isn’t possible, so the frog actually needs to turn the gas down somehow.

Which in a way, brings the analogy back on point, because a disinterested observer would probably conclude that this is quite a lot to ask from a frog.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> I think lbj’s point is that this is indeed the case, and the frog needs a prod.


no, he says 'we know [the temperature's] going up and that it's dangerously hot already': which the frog wouldn't - he's saying we're aware of our danger but we're still doing nothing about it. the frog of course unaware of the danger. perhaps if lbj wants to use analogies he might use ones which don't fall apart because they're being misused.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

kabbes said:


> It’s true that there will be some parties that want to engender panic.  But when the, say, UN have a report on climate change, you can bet your bottom dollar the base case there will be an understated version of a median that is less than the mean.



Fair enough, will hang onto my bottom dollar for now.
My experience with the nuances  of publishing UN climatology summaries is a admittedly sparse.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no, he says 'we know [the temperature's] going up and that it's dangerously hot already': which the frog wouldn't - he's saying we're aware of our danger but we're still doing nothing about it. the frog of course unaware of the danger. perhaps if lbj wants to use analogies he might use ones which don't fall apart because they're being misused.



Analogies are tricky.  Let’s say instead that pain receptors in the frog’s feet are quite concerned about the temperature of the bottom of the pan, but the frog’s brain has decided it’s probably just a little burniness from the old athlete’s foot infection... which was far worse 800,000 years ago so things are most likely also fine now.

You know, I might leave it to lbj to fix this one...


----------



## Crispy (Oct 22, 2019)

Pedictions of complex systems can only be made with estimates of certainty. There's a whole section of each IPCC report dedicated to the exact meaning of words like "likely." The doomsday scenarios are not "likely" but they are in the realms of possible.

A 5% chance of utter calamity is still terrifying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> You know, I might leave it to lbj to fix this one...


probably for the best


----------



## kabbes (Oct 22, 2019)

Bear in mind that insurance companies have to hold enough money to be at lest 99.5% sure they are covered in all instances.  Doesn’t seem much point, really, when the planet is seemingly happy to run a 5% chance of utter fucking catastrophe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Bear in mind that insurance companies have to hold enough money to be at lest 99.5% sure they are covered in all instances.  Doesn’t seem much point, really, when the planet is seemingly happy to run a 5% chance of utter fucking catastrophe.


insurance companies are often themselves insured - What Is Reinsurance? | The Motley Fool


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

Crispy said:


> Pedictions of complex systems can only be made with estimates of certainty. There's a whole section of each IPCC report dedicated to the exact meaning of words like "likely." The doomsday scenarios are not "likely" but they are in the realms of possible.
> 
> A 5% chance of utter calamity is still terrifying.



It is not good.  It can also be reframed as a “95% chance of no utter calamity”, which isn’t so helpful in a backdrop of shrill claims about other threats. Obv that other 95% involves trips to a lot of other “not fine” places.

Also, with complex systems, oversimplified results are problematic, especially where you have given probabilities of positive or negative feedbacks kicking in and people (esp the media) just want a headline item, leaving the scientists feeling like all the significant but nuanced points of their research have been left out of the picture*

Presenting this stuff is really hard, would be even with a much better media than we have, and politicians who were actually interested.

* - ok, maybe a tiny personal axe to grind there...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> insurance companies are often themselves insured - What Is Reinsurance? | The Motley Fool



And when it all goes *properly* to shit the taxpayer picks up the tab anyway.

Or at least the pieces.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 22, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I take it this is your first coming across ferrel - dr sausages - the _SCIENTIST!_





Pickman's model said:


> A charge of preventing the lawful burial of a body was allowed to lie on the file, but it's a sorry tale from the days when fh was a menial butcher's boy who came in one day to find the butcher dead from a massive coronary behind the counter in the middle of making Cumberland sausages. I think I can leave the remainder of the story to your vivid imagination.


About the sum of your intellectual capabilities.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We're the proverbial frog in the saucepan of water, slowly boiling to death. We don't know exactly what the temperature of the water is right now


We are boiling to death are we. 
https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_all_final.pdf
This is AR5 WG1, quote from this to justify that we are "boiling to death". 
Statements that have no actual meaning, but infer near term catastrophe is one way of simply bullshitting for attention.


----------



## maomao (Oct 22, 2019)

redsquirrel said:


> I take it this is your first coming across ferrel - dr sausages - the _SCIENTIST!_.
> 
> Ignore the berk mate, he's a joke in P&P a "evidence based politics" loon


His best one was accusing me of 'threatening murder' for having a little rant about landlords. I was chuckling for days. He's a fucking loon.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 22, 2019)

ferrelhadley said:


> We are boiling to death are we.
> https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_all_final.pdf
> This is AR5 WG1, quote from this to justify that we are "boiling to death".
> Statements that have no actual meaning, but infer near term catastrophe is one way of simply bullshitting for attention.


Mate, you link to ipcc reports without comment, as if the rest of us had never seen them or had not thought to look for them. That's part of your arrogance and patronising attitude, but it's also a really lazy and unhelpful way to post. I don't have the time at the moment to link properly to the variety of scenarios I mentioned (I'll come back to it another day if we're still on this topic), but for human life as we know it on the planet, it does mean death, yes, for huge numbers quite probably, if we don't do something about it pronto, and that's the main point of XR, a very timely point.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

ferrelhadley said:


> We are boiling to death are we.
> https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1AR5_all_final.pdf
> This is AR5 WG1, quote from this to justify that we are "boiling to death".
> Statements that have no actual meaning, but infer near term catastrophe is one way of simply bullshitting for attention.



If you want a killer blow, you might want to point out that we're not frogs, and don't fit in saucepans.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> If you want a killer blow, you might want to point out that we're not frogs, and don't fit in saucepans.


I don't really want to labour that analogy any further, but the idiotic thing about it is that, because we're not frogs, a bunch of clever people have worked out the effect of what we're doing and suggested how to remedy the situation. We really don't have the frog's excuse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> If you want a killer blow, you might want to point out that we're not frogs, and don't fit in saucepans.


you just don't have a pan large enough


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> you just don't have a pan large enough



My Uber-Pan Of Doom will barely accomodate a small child once you factor in vegetables and stock.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> My Uber-Pan Of Doom will barely accomodate a small child once you factor in vegetables and stock.


that's why you shouldn't buy pans from uber


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 22, 2019)

Let's all just leave our fridge doors open. That should cool things down a bit.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Let's all just leave our fridge doors open. That should cool things down a bit.



Or we make a space elevator with a massive radiator* at the top, and pump sea water through it, cooling the water before it returns to the sea.  Kind of the same thing.  Could work as a thermoelectric generator at the same time.  And once the water is flowing, the thermal expansion in the 'up' line's water would counter the contraction in the cooler water flowing downward, so you wouldn't even have to power the pump.  Ie. the water going downward is heavier than than the water going upward**

* - not convector
** -I'm pretty certain this wouldn't work, but I don't expect that to stop the idea getting into an AGW-sceptic publication


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Let's all just leave our fridge doors open. That should cool things down a bit.


This solution, whilst well intentioned, fails to convince due to it's impractical nature.  8balls's is similar.  Far easier to simply switch on the household fan and direct it outside through the back window in a seaward direction.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> This solution, whilst well intentioned, fails to convince due to it's impractical nature.  8balls's is similar.  Far easier to simply switch on the household fan and direct it outside through the back window in a seaward direction.



Except that my solution does at least remove heat from the closed system under discussion.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

Maybe start tipping quantities of liquid oxygen into the sea off Lands End?

(This assumes that the space radiator perpetual motion cooler proves difficult to construct)


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

Obs' Lands End doesn't necessarily need to be the area of choice, but it has the advantage of remoteness, and being in Cornwall, so it could become a tourist attraction in the summer months.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Maybe start tipping quantities of liquid oxygen into the sea off Lands End?
> 
> (This assumes that the space radiator perpetual motion cooler proves difficult to construct)



Any help with the nanotubes would be appreciated.  Bit short on tensile strength at the moment.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

nanotubes?  Not previously mentioned..

Plastic straws are currently in surplus.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> nanotubes?  Not previously mentioned..


Easily missed.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)




----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Easily missed.



Everyone's a critic.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> Any help with the nanotubes would be appreciated.  Bit short on tensile strength at the moment.



Shouldn't be a problem 8ball

According to my extensive research: In 2000, a multiwalled carbon nanotube was tested to have a tensile strength of 63 gigapascals (9,100,000 psi)!


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Shouldn't be a problem 8ball
> 
> According to my extensive research: In 2000, a multiwalled carbon nanotube was tested to have a tensile strength of 63 gigapascals (9,100,000 psi)!



Yeah, it's pretty borderline if you want a multipurpose structure.
Got anything on diamond nanothreads?  And a couple hundred billion US dollars?


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> Or we make a space elevator with a massive radiator* at the top, and pump sea water through it, cooling the water before it returns to the sea.  Kind of the same thing.  Could work as a thermoelectric generator at the same time.  And once the water is flowing, the thermal expansion in the 'up' line's water would counter the contraction in the cooler water flowing downward, so you wouldn't even have to power the pump.  Ie. the water going downward is heavier than than the water going upward**
> 
> * - not convector
> ** -I'm pretty certain this wouldn't work, but I don't expect that to stop the idea getting into an AGW-sceptic publication


Vacuum is a very poor absorber of heat.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

8ball said:


> Yeah, it's pretty borderline if you want a multipurpose structure.
> Got anything on diamond nanothreads?  And a couple hundred billion US dollars?



Maybe raise you a Boron nitride nanotube?  It has the specific advantage of being visible at night (provided its painted with rare-earth atoms of europium, which turns a BN nanotube into a phosphor material emitting visible light under electron excitation).  Could be useful?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Maybe raise you a Boron nitride nanotube?


are you aware you address baron nyetrydenan-o'tube?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> Vacuum is a very poor absorber of heat.


Surely not?  Heat used to be conducted towards the cooler.  That might change post brexit.


----------



## stuff_it (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Surely not?  Heat used to be conducted towards the cooler.  That might change post brexit.


It can be done, but it's not as easy as you might think. Stanford uses the ultimate heat exchanger - outer space - for free, unlimited cooling - ExtremeTech


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> Vacuum is a very poor absorber of heat.



It manages to suck up almost all the heat the Sun is whacking out. 

But yeah - radiation of heat with a big spiky graphite hedgehog is the current plan.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Maybe raise you a Boron nitride nanotube?  It has the specific advantage of being visible at night (provided its painted with rare-earth atoms of europium, which turns a BN nanotube into a phosphor material emitting visible light under electron excitation).  Could be useful?



Ooh, I like that! 

Sounds pricey, but I see sponsorship opportunities there.

This is usually around the point where I get kicked off the thread for a week for going off-topic...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> If it is too late there is no proper case for political action, but a massive argument for simply saying fuck it, we are all dead, so lets get stoned and pissed and shag ourselves into oblivion.   So many are probably into that despairing hopelessness already that you could be right.  But i don't believe that you believe that anyway - you hold on to anarchism don't you? Why bother if its game over?





Spoiler








Large loss of CO 2 in winter observed across the northern permafrost region | Nature Climate Change


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

Sponsorship is key 8ball. The sale of the NHS to Trump Medicaments should help.  And.  Don't overlook the value created by each deregulated worker once the bonfire of restrictive practises and workers rights has been ignited.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 187848
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...



Distressing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Distressing.


and that's not taking into account the methane...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2019)

Thread. What to make of all this then?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> Sponsorship is key 8ball. The sale of the NHS to Trump Medicaments should help.  And.  Don't overlook the value created by each deregulated worker once the bonfire of restrictive practises and workers rights has been ignited.



I'm not sure how selling the NHS to Trump would feed into it - I was kind of more just thinking of getting Rihanna to pay for it by showing her videos on it or something.
Idea needs work...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Thread. What to make of all this then?



Not very much at all to make from that.
A fraction of a fraction of 1% (0.03%) of his Heathrow stake went to XR.

That's like chucking a few coppers to a hippy mate from Uni.

It would be quite visible if XR were steering people away from donors' interests (I am cynical enough to consider the possibility, though).


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2019)

I missed this part -


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 22, 2019)

Yeah it matters where your money comes from. One of XR's many problems.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah it matters where your money comes from. One of XR's many problems.



Those problems are certainly mounting up.

If I was a mega-rich part-owner of torture camps and airports, a few pennies bunged in the direction of any group trying to hold me to account might be quite a wheeze.


----------



## redcogs (Oct 22, 2019)

it sounds a bit like the catholic church holding shares in birth control, tobacco, and defence companies?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

redcogs said:


> it sounds a bit like the catholic church holding shares in birth control, tobacco, and defence companies?



I think it's more like those companies making donations to the Catholic Church.


----------



## pug (Oct 22, 2019)

margaret thatcher supported pol pot


----------



## 8ball (Oct 22, 2019)

pug said:


> margaret thatcher supported pol pot



And such a pillar of the community she was...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2019)

.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2019)

Range Rover dealerships, perfect for a protest...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> Range Rover dealerships, perfect for a protest...



Any reason why particularly them and particularly now?


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2019)

8ball said:


> Any reason why particularly them and particularly now?


They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2019)

Load of people up for s14 from the first XR, some of them pleading guilty 

Too many supporters have turned up for the number of chairs


----------



## LDC (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.



But I thought one of the more interesting things about XR was a move away from that kinda protest thing where it looks like you're just asking people to choose a 'better' car?

This popped up yesterday, worth a read Dear XR, why not be more honest with your participants?  — Why Social Movements Matter


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.



It's good that all the other producers of such products have been dealt with.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> But I thought one of the more interesting things about XR was a move away from that kinda protest thing where it looks like you're just asking people to choose a 'better' car?
> 
> This popped up yesterday, worth a read Dear XR, why not be more honest with your participants?  — Why Social Movements Matter



Well perhaps. Maybe less troublesome than the tube. The thing with expensive cars is that they are a status symbol. I'd tax them as such but that's a different story.

That's a long read but has some sense in it.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> Well perhaps. Maybe less troublesome than the tube. The thing with expensive cars is that they are a status symbol. I'd tax them as such but that's a different story.



Is there a special "status symbol" tax?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 23, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Thread. What to make of all this then?


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2019)

8ball said:


> Is there a special "status symbol" tax?


Not yet, what do you think? I like it as an idea.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> Not yet, what do you think? I like it as an idea.



A lot of people liked the idea of age-limiting dodgy (or just adult) internet content.
I think this idea has similar surface appeal and falls apart equally as quickly.

Some places have "luxury taxes" which I think has more coherence (and might be kind of what you have in mind - maybe I'm taking the terms over-literally).


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2019)

8ball said:


> "luxury taxes"



Yeah that's it. The product remains a status symbol but the rich pay an extraordinary amount to be flash.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> Yeah that's it. The product remains a status symbol but the rich pay an extraordinary amount to be flash.



The "luxury tax" concept has some overlap with the "sin tax" concept (see beer/fags etc.).
Except that certain status symbols are such _because_ only certain people can afford them, and hence pay over the odds for them, just to show they can.  Smokers, on the other hand, would love fags to be cheaper.

Would be interesting to see how it would pan out, the main “usage reduction” mechanic would be borked, and you might actually have a pressure in the direction of increased use.  Plus other effects based on what market bracket you push the goods into.

If you want to optimally reduce usage you could look at pushing the prices of specific goods into price categories where the usual buyers think that particular thing is hopelessly naff.

<ponders>

One good thing is that you will have some dosh for the treasury, but being able to see the rich has some utility too, so many of them go round in disguise as it is.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 23, 2019)

Conspicuous consumption cunts, tax them triple and then torch their cars.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> They are self indulgent uneconomical cars about as far from public transport as it's possible to get.


Apart from being the size of a bus.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2019)

Libertad said:


> Conspicuous consumption cunts, tax them triple and then torch their cars.



Hold on there! not torched, "community recycled" stripped down and sold through the back door to the workers who have to fix the damn things when they go wrong. Win win!


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 23, 2019)

Luxury goods tax - not a new idea. 


> *Between 1940 and 1973, the main consumption tax in the UK, the Purchase Tax, had a class bias in favour of workers, not owners. It was levied only on luxury goods, at a rate of just over 33%. The stated goal of this tax, which originated in war-time, was to reduce the wastage of raw materials and redirect resources into the war economy.* In 1973 the Purchase Tax was replaced by VAT, then levied at 8%; this represented a massive shift in the burden of indirect taxation from wealthy individuals to ordinary workers and the poor. VAT now stands at 20%, effectively cancelling out the gains to low-wage workers from the tax-free threshold on income tax. Primary responsibility for raising rates of VAT rests with Conservative governments, but Labour governments have consistently failed to reduce, much less abolish it.


 The article then goes on to argue for a new luxury goods tax.
Towards a Luxury Goods Tax


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2019)

bluescreen said:


> Luxury goods tax - not a new idea.
> The article then goes on to argue for a new luxury goods tax.
> Towards a Luxury Goods Tax


That's it, vat taxes the poor on the stuff they need and the rich too but as a proportion of the 2 groups incomes the poor pay more. Rich always need to show off and at a certain level can have anything they want and will still buy it no matter what the cost.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 23, 2019)

Good piece from John Warwick, which exposes Hallem’s crap, & touches on what Pickman's model was saying about a diversity of tactics has to be the way forward.

No, Extinction Rebels, nonviolence is not the only way


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 23, 2019)

Hmm, I wonder if Jeff Bezos is a secret XR donor?


----------



## redcogs (Oct 23, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Good piece from John Warwick, which exposes Hallem’s crap, & touches on what Pickman's model was saying about a diversity of tactics has to be the way forward.
> 
> No, Extinction Rebels, nonviolence is not the only way



Nothing to disagree with in John's piece.  As suggested, XR are new, burgeoning, and prone to the mistakes that infants might make as they are developing.  Roger H has displayed some outstanding upside qualities (energy, courage, self sacrifice, and putting money where mouth is), but the neg ones are troubling.  Internal democracy needs enhancing.  and don't forget the man remains a political prisoner.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 23, 2019)

Chilli.s said:


> Yeah that's it. The product remains a status symbol but the rich pay an extraordinary amount to be flash.



 Very true.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> But I thought one of the more interesting things about XR was a move away from that kinda protest thing where it looks like you're just asking people to choose a 'better' car?
> 
> This popped up yesterday, worth a read Dear XR, why not be more honest with your participants?  — Why Social Movements Matter



A few comments on the article :


Underlying the whole article is why didn't XR  ask me about their strategy as I'm an academic whose written books. I found this irritating.

On the "tyranny of structurelessness " he is right.

That XR is just a southern England based organisaton is just wrong.

There is now more debate. See posts about XR Scotland which openly criticise leading lights of XR. Have to see how that goes. 

On XR attitude to police showing that they don't understand the nature of the state I think he is wrong. XR official line is that so called parliamentary democracy is in hock to big vested interests. Why the call for mass civil disobedience.  So XR do see the present State as a problem. My talks with XR on the ground is that they don't want to blame individual police who are just ordinary people caught in the crossfire so to speak. This still is questionable. But XR do have a criticism of the State. ( Though rank and file XR don't always get this I think. They think XR is like a pressure group. As one said to me she wants to get a message through to Boris).
On his discussion of SWP. That XR could become like a sectarian organisation. The Only Way is XR. I do think there is something in that.

Well I know SWP in my area. The SWP is quite strong but has members who been in it a long time. So not everyone burns out.

I'm involved in a couple of community campaigns. Which can grind one down. A friend gave up on that and joined XR as it seemed more like doing something.

I also think that XR , unlike SWP, do try to care about the member welfare. I've seen well being tents at XR demos. Not something the hard left does.

So whilst the writer of the article is right about some things I think this is a harsh outsiders view.

The writer of the article is an academic who luckily can combine being an academic with activism.

I personally would like to see the word activist ditched.

Most people who are socially concerned and do a bit ( I include myself in that) aren't full time activists. Unlike the writer of the article most people aren't going to be able to do that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> A few comments on the article :
> 
> 
> Underlying the whole article is why didn't XR  ask me about their strategy as I'm an academic whose written books. I found this irritating.
> ...


I spent the day watching XR court cases. No one from XR was there. Not much concern about member welfare I could see.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I spent the day watching XR court cases. No one from XR was there. Not much concern about member welfare I could see.



How did the cases go? You said some people were pleading guilty. Not that I'm criticising people for that on individual basis.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> How did the cases go? You said some people were pleading guilty.



Apparently loads that were nicked under sec 14 were pleading guilty!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> How did the cases go? You said some people were pleading guilty. Not that I'm criticising people for that on individual basis.


2 pled guilty, each six month conditional discharge, 1 £400 costs, 1 £500, 2 not guilty of which one found guilty and has to pay £775 (had to leave before verdict given so don't know full sentence) and one I don't know outcome


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2019)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Apparently loads that were nicked under sec 14 were pleading guilty!


Which is stupid as there's not always an obvious audit trail of who declared s14 (I now know more about s14 than I ever expected to)


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I spent the day watching XR court cases. No one from XR was there. Not much concern about member welfare I could see.


Most weeks there has been someone there but I  can imagine that people are a bit  thin on the ground this week.   

Good on you for going


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 23, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I now know more about s14 than I ever expected to)


Guess we all do now


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Guess we all do now


Don't forget form 3176 and the times of the formal reviews


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 24, 2019)

s12 and s14 being used on Kashmir protests now:

Conditions imposed on Free Kashmir protest


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2019)

No conditions at all imposed on the traditional Achaemeni ceremonial Burning Of The Police Vans, though.

Just sayin’


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 24, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> s12 and s14 being used on Kashmir protests now:
> 
> Conditions imposed on Free Kashmir protest



So Met are using Section 12 and 14 to reduce embarrassment to India. This isn't about public order. Indian High commission is in Aldwych. Within walking distance of Whitehall. Demo there on Sunday will not cause :


> In order to prevent serious disruption to the community, the following conditions have been placed upon this assembly.



This is bollox. This is Sunday.

This is political decision. Can't have irate Pakistani and Indian supporters of Kashmir independence having a demo outside Indian High commission on Aldwych.

It would no cause no disruption to my life or the life of the average Londoner.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 25, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So Met are using Section 12 and 14 to reduce embarrassment to India. This isn't about public order. Indian High commission is in Aldwych. Within walking distance of Whitehall. Demo there on Sunday will not cause :
> 
> 
> This is bollox. This is Sunday.
> ...


I was looking up references to this earlier today. There are a lot of nationalist Indian news sites and twitter accounts (and probably bots too) calling the whole thing an "anti-India protest" organised by Pakistan (one pretty typical article here). On a previous demo a window was smashed and it seems that there has been pressure put on by the Indian government to ban this one - I expect through standard diplomatic routes but also, for example, via Navin Shah and Sadiq Khan writing to Priti Patel.

Patel has claimed that the use of S12 & S14 wasn't her decision but actually all down to the police, which is patent bollocks tbh as the change is very recent and a few days ago wasn't being considered. In my TFL traffic email from yesterday morning there's a section saying:


> Westminster – From 10:00 until 17:00 on Sunday 27 October, a group will form up at Richmond terrace opposite Downing Street, then move along Whitehall, the Strand and conclude at Aldwych. This is for a demonstration. Delays are expected.


so clearly it was all fine at that point. The same nationalist Indian sites are claiming this as a victory for them, because, well, it is.

Perhaps the fiction that policing in this country isn't politically driven will be challenged by the coming court cases from XR over S14 etc, but it's carried on so long that I doubt it will disappear.


----------



## CNT36 (Oct 30, 2019)

Earlier they put an article up on Facebook about how Turkey's actions in Rojava are all about oil and how fab the PYD are then some supporters started saying they were being too radical. The next time I looked it had been taken down. All a bit odd.


----------



## LDC (Nov 1, 2019)

Really trying to maintain some hope for the potential in XR, but here it mostly seems to be a stream of absolute fucking bilge like some kind of mix between the worst of the Green Party and some hippie life coach giving inspirational eco-quotes as serious advice.


----------



## andysays (Nov 2, 2019)

Seems like the Citizens' Assembly idea is getting some traction

Climate change: Thousands invited to join citizens' assembly


> Letters are being sent to 30,000 households across the UK inviting people to join a citizens' assembly on climate change. Once participants are selected, the assembly will meet next year, with the outcome of their discussions reported back to Parliament. The initiative, set up by cross party MPs, will look at what members of the public can do to reduce CO2.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 2, 2019)

People's assemblies can only be as good as the questions they're allowed to talk about. Like referendums. The phrase "what members of the public can do to reduce CO2" makes me immediately suspicious.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> People's assemblies can only be as good as the questions they're allowed to talk about. Like referendums. The phrase "what members of the public can do to reduce CO2" makes me immediately suspicious.


Yeh it's not even 'what can' but 'what they can', dictation beckons


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2019)

andysays said:


> Seems like the Citizens' Assembly idea is getting some traction
> 
> Climate change: Thousands invited to join citizens' assembly


Yeh to put a gloss on the prearranged agenda


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 2, 2019)

The Tory fracking pause surely has a lot to do with the fact that XR + the Climate Strikes have pushed environmental issues to the top of the agenda.

Tory polling/focus group feedback showing that it's going to be an issue on the doorstep.


----------



## stavros (Nov 3, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> The Tory fracking pause surely has a lot to do with the fact that XR + the Climate Strikes have pushed environmental issues to the top of the agenda.
> 
> Tory polling/focus group feedback showing that it's going to be an issue on the doorstep.



I suspect more that much of the most vociferous anti-fracking of voters amongst the general public are in constituencies that firstly would be negatively affected by fracking, and who were campaigning against it before Extinction Rebellion, and secondly could be won by the Tories.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2019)

I said I'd add some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot and, well, here are some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2019)

and a couple more that didn't make it into that post


----------



## 8ball (Nov 4, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I said I'd add some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot and, well, here are some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot.
> View attachment 188972



I especially like this one - reminds me of some old paintings.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 4, 2019)

8ball said:


> I especially like this one - reminds me of some old paintings.



Yep. Could be London in the 1930's how marvellous. Great photo's but they do emphasise some aspects of XR I found distasteful.


----------



## nyxx (Nov 5, 2019)

Red Sky said:


> The Tory fracking pause surely has a lot to do with the fact that XR + the Climate Strikes have pushed environmental issues to the top of the agenda.
> 
> Tory polling/focus group feedback showing that it's going to be an issue on the doorstep.



Nothing to do with the sustained anti fracking campaigns in every location it's been tried so far, all down to xr. Sure. 

Have a look where the frack test sites are. How many of them are marginal seats. No one wants it in their back yard. It's an election ploy plain and simple. 

xr been credited with everyfuckingthing including inventing lock-ons, should be used to it by now eh.


----------



## LDC (Nov 5, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Nothing to do with the sustained anti fracking campaigns in every location it's been tried so far, all down to xr. Sure.
> 
> Have a look where the frack test sites are. How many of them are marginal seats. No one wants it in their back yard. It's an election ploy plain and simple.
> 
> xr been credited with everyfuckingthing including inventing lock-ons, should be used to it by now eh.



FFS, the post said a lot, not only the result of XR. And I agree with it, anti-fracking stuff has been going on a while, but XR has pushed these topics much higher up the public agenda. And of course other factors have played a part as well, nobody is denying that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2019)

nyxx said:


> Nothing to do with the sustained anti fracking campaigns in every location it's been tried so far, all down to xr. Sure.
> 
> Have a look where the frack test sites are. How many of them are marginal seats. No one wants it in their back yard. It's an election ploy plain and simple.
> 
> xr been credited with everyfuckingthing including inventing lock-ons, should be used to it by now eh.


Like chekov in star trek saying all inventions from russia


----------



## Libertad (Nov 6, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion wins protest ban court case

Protest ban ruled unlawful.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion protesters may sue Met after protest ban ruled illegal


> Hundreds of Extinction Rebellion protesters may now sue the Metropolitan police for unlawful arrest after the high court quashed an order banning the group’s protests in London last month.
> 
> In a judgment handed down on Wednesday morning, Mr Justice Dingemans and Mr Justice Chamberlain said the section 14 order imposed during XR’s “autumn uprising” in October was unlawful.
> 
> ...


I suppose we'll have to wait to see what new wizard wheeze the Met comes up with next time. As long as you break the law in a different way on each occasion it does the trick.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2019)

dammit!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> dammit!


----------



## Grace Johnson (Nov 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I said I'd add some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot and, well, here are some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot.
> 
> View attachment 188966 View attachment 188967 View attachment 188968 View attachment 188969 View attachment 188970 View attachment 188971 View attachment 188972 View attachment 188973 View attachment 188974 View attachment 188975



Brilliant photos. Thanks for posting them


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 6, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I said I'd add some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot and, well, here are some images from the Kodak Double-X that I shot.
> 
> View attachment 188966 View attachment 188967 View attachment 188968 View attachment 188969 View attachment 188970 View attachment 188971 View attachment 188972 View attachment 188973 View attachment 188974 View attachment 188975



This is very interesting. Agree with previous posters reminded me of 1939s and paintings. 

Film has a different "feel" to digital. Digital looks to perfect. Saw Tarantino recent film projected on film rather than. digital and it does feel warmer. 

Black and white has historical connotations so did put XR in context of protests in 60s.

My first feeling is that Black and White is less "noisy" than colour. Colour photos are so full that they are distracting. These B&W photos make me look at the individual more than the overall picture. Makes the protest feel more human in a way. 

Makes me think for documenting things black and white film has a place.


----------



## Grace Johnson (Nov 6, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> This is very interesting. Agree with previous posters reminded me of 1939s and paintings.
> 
> Film has a different "feel" to digital. Digital looks to perfect. Saw Tarantino recent film projected on film rather than. digital and it does feel warmer.
> 
> ...



Really insightful thoughts on it there mate. Nice one. 

I agree that there's a clarity in these shots that's just not there in all the other modern protest photography I have seen. I don't mean technical clarity really. Just that there is something in the way the image is caputered that makes it a sharper and more nuanced work, there's an intent to it. It's not messing about like. These shots really bang hard.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 6, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Yep. Could be London in the 1930's how marvellous. .



Not seeing much in the way of Cubism or Art Deco going on there myself.  I was thinking a good bit earlier.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 7, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> This is very interesting. Agree with previous posters reminded me of 1939s and paintings.
> 
> Film has a different "feel" to digital. Digital looks to perfect. Saw Tarantino recent film projected on film rather than. digital and it does feel warmer.
> 
> ...


I shoot most of my protest photography on film, usually black and white film (and that usually HP5+). For that matter I also generally use the same sort of camera (a compact manual focus SLR or, now I have the money, a Leica) and the same lens (usually a 50mm though I've been experimenting with 35mm recently), ideally nothing made after 1990.

There are several reasons, but the idea of continuity between protest photography in the past and now that you mention is definitely one of them. I started out because I was interested in documentary photography from around the 60s to 80s - journalism and protests but also social documentary - and the idea of continuity of imagery, and, uh, lack of money, pulled me towards the one-camera-one-lens-one-film setup. The classic SLR, ISO 400 B&W film and a fast 50 combination was both entry level and professional kit for a long time, and it does influence the sort of photographs you take. A prime lens means you're forced to have a consistent perspective for all your shots. Manual focus and an optical finder I find make me feel more connected to the events around me. And so on (I can go on about this for ages).

And yes, I also think B&W can strip out a lot of distractions (particularly in colourful protests) and mean you end up just with people. Which can make it harder mind you.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 19, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion on the history programme The Long View comparing the 15c Florence and the present day XR.  XR took part. Not a wise decision imo.



> Jonathan Freedland and his guests compare the Bonfire of the Vanities in fifteenth century Florence with Extinction Rebellion's Autumn Uprising. Girolamo Savonarola was a Dominican Friar whose apocalyptic sermons inspired his followers, the Piagnoni or 'wailers' to take over Florence's streets and squares, challenging the authorities and condemning the consumption of sinful luxuries, such as mirrors, cosmetics and musical instruments. Today's Extinction Rebellion activists have also staged city-centre protests, demanding radical action to reduce carbon emissions and the consumption of modern luxuries such as fast fashion and air travel. Joining Jonathan to discuss past and present are Evelyn Welch, Professor of Renaissance Studies at King's College London, Tim Stanley of The Telegraph and William Skeaping of Extinction Rebellion.



The Long View - Extinction Rebellion and the Bonfire of the Vanities - BBC Sounds

Unlike the 15c Savonarola the XR spokesperson came across like a liberal who when questioned is all things to all people. 

Tim Stanley ( a Tory but made good points) was sympathetic but critical.

The XR spokesperson said that XR is not moralistic like Savonarola but then said XR is going to run an anti consumerist campaign against the fashion industry. As individual people buying clothes were furthering the climate crisis. This after saying they were trying to push for a politics that was systemic change rather than moralistic. 

Tim Stanley ( sympathetic) saw the the , for example, the women dressed in red as  a religious aspect to XR similar to 15c . This I saw ( and agree) is not a criticism. Street theatre can be powerful. 

XR spokesperson was questioned on democracy. XR spokesperson said that the present democratic process can not deal with climate crisis. So XR proposal of "People's. Assembly " was much more democratic. Not how I see XR ideology as I've posted before. 

The XR spokesperson didn't say the so called People's Assemblies would only happen after XR civil disobedience had forced the government of the day to agree to zero carbon by 2025. So a People's Assembly would be restricted to deciding the best option to get to that point. 

I do feel XR are trying to position themselves as the anti politics group. Its a bit disingenuous. 

Unfortunately I did feel the comparisons with a Christian guilt trip movement of the 15c and XR are relevant. 

Posters here have criticised XR for the guilt aspect. 

XR came across as wanting to be seen as rational science based project and moralistic in the programme. 

Interesting programme if you haven't heard of Savonarola before.


----------



## belboid (Nov 20, 2019)

Hallam seems to have difficulty keeping his feet away from his mouth

Extinction Rebellion founder’s Holocaust remarks spark fury


----------



## 8ball (Nov 20, 2019)

belboid said:


> Hallam seems to have difficulty keeping his feet away from his mouth
> 
> Extinction Rebellion founder’s Holocaust remarks spark fury



There was definite fuckery tbf.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 20, 2019)

belboid said:


> Hallam seems to have difficulty keeping his feet away from his mouth
> 
> Extinction Rebellion founder’s Holocaust remarks spark fury



Oh dear.



Spoiler


----------



## 8ball (Nov 20, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler




Oh dear, indeed.


----------



## YouSir (Nov 20, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler




Tedious cunt.


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 20, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler




Oh the irony of singing that and calling anyone else banal. "Hur dur leftie students protesting about stuff, what a bunch of cunts, why can't they just get a sensible haircut and do some common sense bootlicking like the rest of us eh?" Yeah your cup of innovation really runneth over there mate. What other songs does he have - lemme guess, something about preachy vegans?

Edit: Lol even worse, one on Millennials, another on Remainers and he's wearing, oh dear oh dear, an Infowars T-shirt.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 21, 2019)

Extinction Rebellion disowns co-founder Roger Hallam over Holocaust remarks



> One of the British eco-warriors who founded Extinction Rebellion has been disowned by his allies and rebuked by the German government after insisting that there was nothing “unique” about the Holocaust.


----------



## LDC (Nov 21, 2019)

WTF are you on here for Marty1? You bring nothing of interest or use to this board, and you quite clearly think you're being edgy or controversial when it's just tedious and thick as shit stuff we've all seen a thousand times.

E2A: Fuck it, I've just put you on ignore as I can feel my brain rot when I read your posts.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 21, 2019)

belboid said:


> Hallam seems to have difficulty keeping his feet away from his mouth
> 
> Extinction Rebellion founder’s Holocaust remarks spark fury



I'm no great fan of Hallam but I also am circumspect about condemning someone on basis of one article.

Hallam also says this:



> He added: “We are allowing our governments to willingly, and in full knowledge of the science, engage in genocide of our young people and those in the global south by refusing to take emergency action to reduce carbon emissions


.”

He could be accused of putting things poorly but , to give him benefit of doubt, he is saying that man made climate change couldd result in many deaths in the global South.


----------



## nyxx (Nov 22, 2019)

Stuff coming out in German media that it was deliberately provocative and he intends to do more of the same.

Anyone got tips on translating a longish article from German to English?* I’ve seen snippets of it in the intro to others’ posts linking it but not read the whole thing.

There’s also a leaked memo from Roger to xr’s media and messaging group where he goes into more detail. & states his intention to do more of the same.


edited to add a link to one article in German:
Extinction Rebellion ǀ Eine gezielte Provokation — der Freitag

* sorted that now, opened it in Chrome.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2019)

When I first saw him I thought he was a wanker's wanker and everything he's done since then has confirmed my opinion


----------



## Rob Ray (Nov 24, 2019)

XR leak: Hallam Holocaust comments were a deliberate ‘provocation’

(We got hold of the document)


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 24, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> XR leak: Hallam Holocaust comments were a deliberate ‘provocation’
> 
> (We got hold of the document)



The problem there is the idea of "XR itself".

 XR doesn't have the kind of decision making process to rush out a condemnation like this and the fact that statements like this have appeared from the main social media outlets has caused ructions.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 24, 2019)

Rob Ray said:


> XR leak: Hallam Holocaust comments were a deliberate ‘provocation’
> 
> (We got hold of the document)


Twat. (Hallam not you)


----------



## kenny g (Nov 28, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> WTF are you on here for Marty1? You bring nothing of interest or use to this board, and you quite clearly think you're being edgy or controversial when it's just tedious and thick as shit stuff we've all seen a thousand times.
> 
> E2A: Fuck it, I've just put you on ignore as I can feel my brain rot when I read your posts.



I appreciate him for compressing the shite I haven't met before and sharing it. For fucks sake the whole point in urban is in having a few different opinions surely....

And BTW Hallam is obviously behaving like a total fool now and proof to the point that it is time to move on in terms of environmental justice action - with the emphasise on the latter rather than the former.


----------



## spring-peeper (Dec 23, 2019)

> A climate activist group dumped a pile of manure at Premier Doug Ford‘s constituency office Sunday morning.
> 
> The group, Extinction Rebellion, dropped off the surprise at Ford’s office in Etobicoke just after 9 a.m.
> 
> ...



Manure dumped at Premier Doug Ford’s constituency office by climate activists


----------



## kenny g (Jan 11, 2020)

XR included on prevent document from Counter Terrorism South East

Terrorism police list Extinction Rebellion as extremist ideology 

Not altogether surprising but still mad. Using the same criteria I suspect Dominic Cummins should be monitored by a prevent strategy.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 11, 2020)

Yes, i saw the above and was sadly unsurprised.

Interesting analysis here which includes this:



> According to activist Sam Knights, “The police were first advised to classify Extinction Rebellion as extremists by the right wing think tank Policy Exchange. Policy Exchange refused to deny the report was paid for by an oil and gas company.”...





			amandarogers.org


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 11, 2020)

Yeah, I don't approve of some of their methods (like the tube obstruction) but labelling them terrorists is the real extremism!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2020)

Greenpeace and PETA as well, myriad other soft left groups. Surprised this story has so little traction on here 









						Greenpeace included with neo-Nazis on UK counter-terror list
					

Exclusive: Extinction Rebellion and Peta also named in anti-extremism briefing alongside Combat 18 and National Action




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Among the groups listed with no known link to terrorist violence or known threat to national security are Stop the War, the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, vegan activists, anti-fascist groups, anti-racist groups, an anti-police surveillance group and campaigners against airport expansion. Communist and socialist political parties are also on the list.


----------



## BristolEcho (Jan 17, 2020)

It's not really a surprise is it? Left wing groups have always been fair game whatever their struggle has been. I mainly ignored it as a lot of the press I saw was about XR.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2020)

BristolEcho said:


> It's not really a surprise is it? Left wing groups have always been fair game whatever their struggle has been. I mainly ignored it as a lot of the press I saw was about XR.



True. They've always loved sabotaging even vaguely left WI groups.

But we've had like 5 threads on Brexit parties on the 31st so thought it'd get a look in.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jan 18, 2020)

St Pauli FC made it on there too


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 19, 2020)

I notice Unite is on there


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 19, 2020)

I had "Prevent" training and can safely say it was a complete waste of my, and my employers time. It looked like it must have cost a tremendous amount and kept a load of waffle writers and social tacticians in work though.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 19, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> I notice Unite is on there


Along with the far-right loons it's basically anyone who might in whatever small way be considered a threat to capitalism.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Jan 20, 2020)

It's unite against fascism not unite the union


----------



## kenny g (Jan 20, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Along with the far-right loons it's basically anyone who might in whatever small way be considered a threat to capitalism.



Probably a good guide to who they have implanted secret squirrels into as well.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 21, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> It's unite against fascism not unite the union


Sorry, my mistake.


----------



## D'wards (Jan 22, 2020)

I suspect this is fake


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2020)

23rd May for the next round of protests/nickings...


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 2, 2020)

Absolute car crash of an interview with XR’s Annie Rose on Talk Radio.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

human extinction could occur as soon as the next 2-15 years apparently, should the frozen methane beneath the arctic ocean thaw. STATEMENT BY DR. PAUL ZEITZ: Rapid Melting of Frozen Methane in Arctic Ocean Could Trigger Human Extinction

happy monday!


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> human extinction could occur as soon as the next 2-15 years apparently, should the frozen methane beneath the arctic ocean thaw. STATEMENT BY DR. PAUL ZEITZ: Rapid Melting of Frozen Methane in Arctic Ocean Could Trigger Human Extinction
> 
> happy monday!





How many more fake end of the world predictions from these nutters?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> How many more fake end of the world predictions from these nutters?


if you knew anything of the arctic methane situation you'd not laugh it off like that. an unknown amount of methane is leaking from the thawing permafrost, and late last year scientists found hitherto unknown volumes of methane bubbling up through the siberian seas. in words you can understand, should a massive fart of methane occur then there's a very good chance your life expectancy could be measured in months and not years.


----------



## smokedout (Feb 3, 2020)

Michael Mann on methane is worth a listen:


----------



## Signal 11 (Feb 3, 2020)

And more detail here: Much ado about methane


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Signal 11 said:


> And more detail here: Much ado about methane



not sure how much stock to put in an eight year auld piece


----------



## Signal 11 (Feb 3, 2020)

Pickman's model the view among experts is the same now, as in the video above.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Signal 11 said:


> Pickman's model the view among experts is the same now, as in the video above.


you're quite right, i missed this recent article Researchers make critical advances in quantifying methane released from the Arctic Ocean


----------



## 8ball (Feb 3, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Absolute car crash of an interview with XR’s Annie Rose on Talk Radio.




Only got 3:44 in before the right-whingeing became a little too much.
When does the car crash happen?


----------



## smokedout (Feb 3, 2020)

I get the impression a lot of climatologists are getting pissed off with this insistence from some in XR and on the fringes of it that we're all doomed in ten years for the reasons Mann states.  If that's true then what's the point in trying?  I think  it's a dangerous narrative to send out to the young because the logical approach to imminent apocalypse is drink, suicide or getting weapons training, not sitting in the road and waiting to get arrested.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 3, 2020)

8ball said:


> Only got 3:44 in before the right-whingeing became a little too much.
> When does the car crash happen?



I guess if you can’t  recognise  the crash then you’re part of the crash


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 3, 2020)

Talk Radio is owned by Murdoch, need I say more?


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 3, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Talk Radio is owned by Murdoch, need I say more?



What’s an XR activist doing on there then?

Have they been seduced/infiltrated by the dark side?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 3, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> What’s an XR activist doing on there then?
> 
> Have they been seduced/infiltrated by the dark side?



Most people don't know Murdoch owns the Wireless Group (TalkRadio, TalkSport, Virgin Radio, and launching this year Times Radio), although most people seem to avoid it, according to the latest RAJAR figures it only have a reach of 409k listeners, that's a 1% audience share, piss poor for a national station.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 3, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I guess if you can’t  recognise  the crash then you’re part of the crash



Well, I think the XR bod went a bit overboard with the “be nice to the twat” policy, and also clearly hasn’t read any Chomsky, but those are pretty forgiveable, and maybe the tone changed later.


----------



## rekil (Feb 3, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Talk Radio is owned by Murdoch, need I say more?


Dan Wootton is "Executive Editor and Columnist at The Sun". Marty being a dullard cunt yet again.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 3, 2020)

rekil said:


> Dan Wootton is "Executive Editor and Columnist at The Sun". Marty being a dullard cunt yet again.



The agenda isn’t really the problem - XR _should_ be able to handle that.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 3, 2020)

8ball said:


> Well, I think the XR bod went a bit overboard with the “be nice to the twat” policy, and also clearly hasn’t read any Chomsky, but those are pretty forgiveable, and maybe the tone changed later.



Well, I guess you’ve got to give her (AR of XR) credit for engaging at least, even if she was trying to ham fist her script as answers to the questions asked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Well, I guess you’ve got to give her (AR of XR) credit for engaging at least, even if she was trying to ham fist her script as answers to the questions asked.


ayarh of exar was of course a heroine of three of edgar rice burroughs' books


----------



## two sheds (Feb 4, 2020)

No terrorism offenders to be released without review, says minister
					

Emergency legislation will retrospectively toughen terms of sentences being served by 220 terrorist offenders




					www.theguardian.com
				




Well that's greta fucked if she comes to the uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 4, 2020)

smokedout said:


> I get the impression a lot of climatologists are getting pissed off with this insistence from some in XR and on the fringes of it that we're all doomed in ten years for the reasons Mann states.  If that's true then what's the point in trying?  I think  it's a dangerous narrative to send out to the young because the logical approach to imminent apocalypse is drink, suicide or getting weapons training, not sitting in the road and waiting to get arrested.



Sounds like a plan to me.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 8, 2020)

.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 9, 2020)

Reading the predictions stating upcoming rising sea levels and the release of trapped methane poisoning the atmosphere. Does this mean those who don’t drown will be choked to death?


----------



## Fedayn (Feb 10, 2020)

Diod anyone see/watch the 'founde/c0-founder on the Nicky Canpbell programme on the BBC yesterdayr'?? Christ she was utterly vacuous  and o obsequious to people who were entrepreneurs, Thatcherite and big business.


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2020)

Photos from yesterday 

























						In photos: Extinction Rebellion protest in Parliament Square, London, Sat 22nd Feb 2020
					

Hundreds of Extinction Rebellion activists filled Parliament Square yesterday, after marching from Russell Square. Joining forces with Parents for Futures and others, the march was to highlight the…




					www.urban75.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2020)

Fedayn said:


> Diod anyone see/watch the 'founde/c0-founder on the Nicky Canpbell programme on the BBC yesterdayr'?? Christ she was utterly vacuous  and o obsequious to people who were entrepreneurs, Thatcherite and big business.


yeh the people who continue in the delusion this is some socially progressive organisation will be in for a rude awakening


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 24, 2020)




----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



That is beyond awful and ironic seeing as they're on the extremist list.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 24, 2020)

Ah yes, that lovely moment when a British political movement again admits it wants everything to change but only if everything stays the same.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 24, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


>




Except it's got nothing to do with the leadership.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 25, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


>




Reminds me of the old T-shirt, ‘Help the Met, beat yourself up!’


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

editor said:


> That is beyond awful and ironic seeing as they're on the extremist list.


and that the met have nicked, and the cps prosecuted, thousands of xr supporters


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

Probably why they've done it, to try to make themselves look less like a threat. Does mean that the Met should be added to the Prevent list as 'known associates' though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Probably why they've done it, to try to make themselves look less like a threat. Does mean that the Met should be added to the Prevent list as 'known associates' though.


we'll wait to see how many undercover cops have been embedded by the secret police


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 26, 2020)

XR are in my neck of the woods protesting an open cast coal mine in Co. Durham.

Some great pics of their fancy dress attire sitting in bird cages.









						Extinction Rebellion protesters blockade open cast mine in County Durham — LBC News
					

Extinction Rebellion activists have blocked the entrance to an open cast mine in opposition to plans to expand it.




					apple.news


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> we'll wait to see how many undercover cops have been embedded by the secret police



XRs very open organising methods render infiltration a bit irrelevant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 26, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> XRs very open organising methods render infiltration a bit irrelevant.


bet there's still a couple in there though.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 26, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Except it's got nothing to do with the leadership.



I get that, as do many on this thread. The banner speaks volumes though.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> bet there's still a couple in there though.



Too right there is!


----------



## D'wards (Feb 29, 2020)

I read on Twitter that China are building 125 new airports, and that if the UK abandoned all fossil fuels the drop in co2 levels on the planet would not even register. 

I can't seem to corroborate this - it would be flipping depressing of true.

I did see the co2 graphs and China and Asia are way up there with emissions. Dwarfing even USA. 
How can Greta and XR get China to do something is the question? Is this even possible?


----------



## yield (Feb 29, 2020)

Fairer to compare co2 emissions per capita.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 18, 2020)

Found a good one today.

XR Manchester trying to claim the recent closure of deansgate to help with social distancing is actually a result of their activism. 

I started off having with a lot of sympathy for their cause, you know but the more I read of their material the more they just look like total fuckin barmpots.

Its so tone deaf, like everything they do. Bit wowed by this one though like. A little bit of self awareness would be nice wouldn't it. Ffs

It's such a shame. They got a good point and getting those kind of numbers out on the streets is quite an achievement but they just seem incapable of joined up thinking.

Aye mate, it was you and your daft mates  that caused deansgate to close. Not this massive fckin global pandemic. Gulag bin for the lot of them. The sheer force of ego that thought must require is tremendous. Wankers


----------



## lazythursday (May 18, 2020)

Grace Johnson said:


> View attachment 213337
> 
> Found a good one today.
> 
> ...


I'm also no big fan of the direction XR has gone in or the tone etc but I think they're at least half right - experimental shutdowns of roads whether officially or via protest has helped pave the way for these decisions. If there hadn't been existing pressure for more sustainable travel and less air pollution I think it's more likely the council would have turned every bit of city centre open space into a car park faced with lack of public transport.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 18, 2020)

lazythursday said:


> experimental shutdowns of roads whether officially or via protest has helped pave the way for these decisions.


The opening up of roads to sustainable travel in M/cr has a damn sight more to so with the work of people like Chris Boardman than it does these fucking clowns.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 18, 2020)

lazythursday said:


> I'm also no big fan of the direction XR has gone in or the tone etc but I think they're at least half right - experimental shutdowns of roads whether officially or via protest has helped pave the way for these decisions. If there hadn't been existing pressure for more sustainable travel and less air pollution I think it's more likely the council would have turned every bit of city centre open space into a car park faced with lack of public transport.



I can see what your saying here. With the increased pressure building over time and leading local authorities into more environmentally sound decisions. Totally agree. 

I think what's drawn my attention here though is that they are quite clearly trying to imply it was a direct result of their actions. If they have said something more thoughtful no problem. Like "continuing climate activism over the past 30 years has helped influence these decisions. Please continue to support these causes" . Fair dos innit. But they've not. They really do think its all about them, the self righteousness of that message is just daft.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you're quite right, i missed this recent article Researchers make critical advances in quantifying methane released from the Arctic Ocean


however the zombie fires might concern









						Zombie fires could be awakening in the Arctic
					

"They recover and they’re difficult to kill."




					mashable.com


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (May 29, 2020)

When X-R first started I thought they had some good direct action ideas, and that their intention of damaging the economy until the governments of the world started acting on global warming had some possibility of success. But when you compare the economic damage they have inflicted with that done by the Coronavirus it pales into insignificance. Johnson and his cronies, for instance, will now be so much more able to ride out any economic storm coming their way. They’ll just blame the virus. Where can XR go from here?


----------



## Shechemite (May 29, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Where can XR go from here?



Canning Town?


----------



## Gramsci (May 30, 2020)

Grace Johnson said:


> I can see what your saying here. With the increased pressure building over time and leading local authorities into more environmentally sound decisions. Totally agree.
> 
> I think what's drawn my attention here though is that they are quite clearly trying to imply it was a direct result of their actions. If they have said something more thoughtful no problem. Like "continuing climate activism over the past 30 years has helped influence these decisions. Please continue to support these causes" . Fair dos innit. But they've not. They really do think its all about them, the self righteousness of that message is just daft.



An example on my local neighbourhood forum we have long time Labour party member and active member of the London Cycling Campaign.

Been lobbying and bringing up issues of green transport for years.

She doesn't get paid for her voluntary efforts.

I think XR more thinking members is that people like her campaigning is morally good but ineffective.

XR was/ is dramatic intervention. Going outside the , in their view, well meaning but ineffective lovbbying by mainsteam groups like Greenpeace and London Cycling Campaign.

In my area Lambeth the local Labour Council ( run by the anti Corbyn right of the party) have embraced XR and say they want a Lambeth Peoples Assembly.

So in my area XR have become accepted by the establishment politicians.

Im at a loss to see how this is going to be frank.

I do know people who joined XR as it was the latest "sexy" group to join. As someone I know said to me she joined XR as unlike me who beavers away at boring local community issues she felt strongly about things and went to a higher plane of activism as she was so angry. Personally I did find a whiff of self righteosness about her view. Like I was on a lower level. She as "angry" activist had gone beyond me. I found it patronising tbh.

Its like politics based on personal emotions is superior. XR appealed to that.

I do boring lobbying and annoying Cllrs and Council officers in my community efforts. 

XR appealed to some people I know as latest thing to join that is not "boring"


----------



## chilango (Jun 27, 2020)

Have we had this yet?






						Beyond Politics Party
					

Beyond Politics' policy is to give the power to the people of London. Let them decide how their city should be run - not just the burning issues climate change will change




					beyondpoliticsparty.com
				




I'm, initially, speechless. I wish they had been.


----------



## LDC (Jun 27, 2020)

chilango said:


> Have we had this yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's quite... err... _stunning?_


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 27, 2020)

A real adult human actually wrote "no time to wake people up with blowjobs".

It seems to be Roger Hallam splitting from XR...


----------



## newbie (Jun 27, 2020)

on the one hand


and on the other


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 27, 2020)

newbie said:


> on the one hand
> View attachment 219689
> 
> and on the other
> ...


Covering all bases


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 27, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That's quite... err... _stunning?_



Gave me a chuckle.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 27, 2020)

that one fast show sketch where they did indie club rather than jazz club.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Jul 23, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> A real adult human actually wrote "no time to wake people up with blowjobs".
> It seems to be Roger Hallam splitting from XR...


----------



## belboid (Jul 25, 2020)

Massive turnout for the launch of the Beyond Politics Party today


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> Massive turnout for the launch of the Beyond Politics Party today


Apt slogan on the back of the jacket


----------



## Sprocket. (Jul 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Apt slogan on the back of the jacket


Hippies!


----------



## kenny g (Jul 25, 2020)

Reminds me of Rainbow George Weiss Make Politicians History - Wikipedia


----------



## kenny g (Jul 25, 2020)

belboid said:


> Massive turnout for the launch of the Beyond Politics Party today


Spot the coppers.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 25, 2020)

kenny g said:


> Spot the coppers.


I was going to say (L-R):

Undercover Met, undercover _Daily Mail_, undercover private intelligence working for energy company, freelance journalist hoping to get a piece in _Vice_, Fraggle Dave, blacklisting database researcher, Green Party candidate, Third Positionist, Malthus enthusiast, undercover XR, confused tourist, YouTube influencer...


----------



## kenny g (Jul 26, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> I was going to say (L-R):
> 
> Undercover Met, undercover _Daily Mail_, undercover private intelligence working for energy company, freelance journalist hoping to get a piece in _Vice_, Fraggle Dave, blacklisting database researcher, Green Party candidate, Third Positionist, Malthus enthusiast, undercover XR, confused tourist, YouTube influencer...


They are definitely diverse in terms of facial expressions:


I am guessing Richard H is that  dodgy looking hippie  at the front in the checked shirt doing something strange with his left hand?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 26, 2020)

kenny g said:


> They are definitely diverse in terms of facial expressions:
> View attachment 223786
> 
> I am guessing Richard H is that  dodgy looking hippie  at the front in the checked shirt doing something strange with his left hand?


You mean Roger Hallam?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 17, 2020)

In non-Hallam news, there are planned actions at the end of the month, blockading Parliament at least but also others as yet undetermined.









						The Big One - Extinction Rebellion UK
					

Sign up for The Big One and help us make history. From 21 April, 100,000 people will surround the Houses of Parliament. Make sure you’re there for the longest, largest climate protest the UK has seen.




					extinctionrebellion.uk


----------



## 8ball (Aug 17, 2020)

A mate of mine that is v involved keeps asking me along to their things.  Keep having other stuff to do.  They seem to be going through some stuff at the moment and coming through a bit of a demoralised bit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 21, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> In non-Hallam news, there are planned actions at the end of the month, blockading Parliament at least but also others as yet undetermined.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, 1st September for socially distanced blocking stuff


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2020)

Vandana Shiva in the video. Hasn't she been coming out with some Coronavirus conspiracy stuff recently?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 21, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Vandana Shiva in the video. Hasn't she been coming out with some Coronavirus conspiracy stuff recently?


Has she? Why not say so if she has, and what you think that says about the overall movement if so?


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Has she? Why not say so if she has, and what you think that says about the overall movement if so?



I can't remember, hence it was a question.

And I don't think it says anything particularly significant about XR either way tbh. Except possibly a tendency to align themselves with personalities with shit politics if true.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 21, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I can't remember, hence it was a question.
> 
> And I don't think it says anything particularly significant about XR either way tbh. Except possibly a tendency to align themselves with personalities with shit politics if true.


This sort of snidey bullshit does get on my nerves tbh. You're clearly trying to insinuate something - "some people say..." I don't even know who this person _is_ tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> ." I don't even know who this person _is_ tbh.


Indian Environmentalist - id say best known for standing up for indian farmers and seeds rights, particularly in the context of monsanto's murderous reign in india. Written loads of books - was much respected i think - though someone else bad mouthed her on here recently. Im not aware of as to why


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 21, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Indian Environmentalist - id say best known for standing up for indian farmers and seeds rights, particularly in the context of monsanto's murderous reign in india. Written loads of books - was much respected i think - though someone else bad mouthed her on here recently. Im not aware of as to why



Always had a fair amount of respect for her without knowing that much beyond the anti Monsanto stuff, but I stopped myself falling down the organic rabbit hole to much.


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This sort of snidey bullshit does get on my nerves tbh. You're clearly trying to insinuate something - "some people say..." I don't even know who this person _is_ tbh.



Not 'clearly trying' to insinuate anything at all, I asked a question, as plenty do on here. Get off your defensive high horse, especially as you said you know nothing about her.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 21, 2020)

BristolEcho said:


> Always had a fair amount of respect for her without knowing that much beyond the anti Monsanto stuff, but I stopped myself falling down the organic rabbit hole to much.


well theres Duchy Organics and then theres indian farmers not being able to farm in their traditional organic methods and committing suicide by drinking Roundup

ETA: RIP those farmers


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 21, 2020)

I had a quick Google and couldn't see anything immediately other than a blog post suggesting it. No evidence that I could see though. 

She's an impressive speaker though.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 21, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not 'clearly trying' to insinuate anything at all, I asked a question, as plenty do on here. Get off your defensive high horse, especially as you said you know nothing about her.


"just asking a question" oh do me a fucking favour. If you wanted to know whether she'd been coming out with stuff you could just google. Say what your problem is with her.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 21, 2020)

ska invita said:


> well theres Duchy Organics and then theres indian farmers not being able to farm in their traditional organic methods and committing suicide by drinking Roundup



Yeah of course! As I said I've always respected her.


----------



## LDC (Aug 21, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> "just asking a question" oh do me a fucking favour. If you wanted to know whether she'd been coming out with stuff you could just google. Say what your problem is with her.



Oh do fuck off and calm down if you're having a bad night. I've read plenty of her stuff over the years and have seen her speak, she's a 'name' to do with GM and farmers stuff, especially around Monsanto. Her name popped up on the XR video and I recall someone on here (I think) saying she'd come out with some dodgy coronavirus stuff recently, so I asked about it. Nothing more than that, no matter what you might want to think.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 22, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oh do fuck off and calm down if you're having a bad night. I've read plenty of her stuff over the years and have seen her speak, she's a 'name' to do with GM and farmers stuff, especially around Monsanto. Her name popped up on the XR video and I recall someone on here (I think) saying she'd come out with some dodgy coronavirus stuff recently, so I asked about it. Nothing more than that, no matter what you might want to think.


I see FM's annoyance though. There's a paranoid style on the left in which everyone is likely to betray you or let you down or sell out or flake out, and a resulting hypervigilance that leads to people being smeared through mere implication, or through questions about their soundness based on very little. Thus people dismiss potential allies without really knowing much about them. I'm not saying your question was worse than what lots of other people do, but I think it's something people on the left should be more careful about.


----------



## LDC (Aug 22, 2020)

FWIW I have had a look about and can't find anything suggesting that which is a relief, it would have been depressing to see her go down that line. She says plenty on Bill Gates, but from an anti-billionaires influence perspective rather than the anti-vax stuff, maybe that's where some of the confusion/concern came in originally.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 22, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I see FM's annoyance though. There's a paranoid style on the left in which everyone is likely to betray you or let you down or sell out or flake out, and a resulting hypervigilance that leads to people being smeared through mere implication, or through questions about their soundness based on very little. Thus people dismiss potential allies without really knowing much about them. I'm not saying your question was worse than what lots of other people do, but I think it's something people on the left should be more careful about.


I was in a bad mood last night but yes, this does irritate me an awful lot (obviously more so when I am in a bad mood). I do see it frequently connected with XR too.

Anyway if we're all in agreement now that there isn't a problem here then everything's fine. Apart from the ecosystem being fucked of course.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 2, 2020)

Very placid so far, the Met letting them protest but with strict rules in place which were stuck to. I met a woman heading to the station yesterday morning with an XR logo on her bag and a flagpole sticking out the top, had a chat, she was not planning on getting nicked and said no one from our town's XR group was planning on getting nicked this time.


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2020)

Brockwell Park XR camp




















						In photos: Extinction Rebellion camp in Brockwell Park, south London
					

Yesterday, we ran a piece from the Friends of Brockwell Park (FOBP) berating the Extinction Rebellion camp that had sprung up in the park, so we went along to take a look for ourselves. Here’…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## mauvais (Sep 2, 2020)

Not very good though, are they. Revives this:






						Extinction Rebellion: Not the Struggle we Need, Pt. 1
					

The first of a three-part critique of Extinction Rebellion, focussing on their attitudes towards the police, legal system and prison.




					libcom.org


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2020)

I gave an XR mate a roasting the other night for re-posting something that was pretty badly worded (in a sentence that appeared to be listing future threats, it went “fires, floods, climate refugees”).

Tone-deaf rather than deliberate in this case, but took too long for me to explain how the rhetoric came over.

Haven’t read much of that libcom article yet, but it chimes with my feelings so far, though some tactics have changed since this was written and are still in flux.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2020)

Last evening's C4 news had a significant piece on the XR protests and fair play and all that, but I couldn't help but notice the interview with one activist (from 34.30 if you want to see it) that included this quote in response to the notion that XR was _painfully middles class, white and affluent_:



> ...we've got people now organising/mobilising with the working classes



&



> ...we've got people liaising and connecting up with people of colour groups


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Last evening's C4 news had a significant piece on the XR protests and fair play and all that, but I couldn't help but notice the interview with one activist (from 34.30 if you want to see it) that included this quote in response to the notion that XR was _painfully middles class, white and affluent_:
> 
> 
> 
> &



What they lack in non-white non-middle class folk, they make up for in 5G nuts by the sound of things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Last evening's C4 news had a significant piece on the XR protests and fair play and all that, but I couldn't help but notice the interview with one activist (from 34.30 if you want to see it) that included this quote in response to the notion that XR was _painfully middles class, white and affluent_:
> 
> 
> 
> &


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2020)

8ball said:


> What they lack in non-white non-middle class folk, they make up for in 5G nuts by the sound of things.


Is that so?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2020)

8ball said:


> What they lack in non-white non-middle class folk, they make up for in 5G nuts by the sound of things.


they're fucking full of cashews


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 2, 2020)

Really? Not been my experience at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Really? Not been my experience at all.


maybe i've just been unlucky in the people i've seen and talked to.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> Really? Not been my experience at all.



Just going on what I hear about our local group.
Good thing if it's a blip.

I think regular 5G as opposed to the even barmier 5G/Covid variety.


----------



## muscovyduck (Sep 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Last evening's C4 news had a significant piece on the XR protests and fair play and all that, but I couldn't help but notice the interview with one activist (from 34.30 if you want to see it) that included this quote in response to the notion that XR was _painfully middles class, white and affluent_:
> 
> 
> 
> &



I was actually just gobbing off about this. I suffered a really bad bereavement recently with an awful fallout that everyone in the local community knew about, but because I tend to score highly in intersectional bingo for this area, someone who really should have sent me condolences or help instead sent me a summons to an xr event. Not an invite. A demand that I attend and be involved or watch. Same narcisistic evangelical bollocks I've seen from a lot of other activist groups and not something I'm going anywhere near with a bargepole. I even saw one of the local XR group wandering around the highstreet trying to sell their newspaper a few month back 

[edited for clarity]


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2020)

Yeah, my mate had some of their newspapers.  Figured they were giving them away cos its hardly going to make them any money.


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2020)

The helicopter expensively hovering over the relatively tiny gathering of XR campaigners in Parliament Square all day sure seems a massive waste of money. And then there's the vast amount of cops all standing by. What on earth are they expecting?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2020)

editor said:


> The helicopter expensively hovering over the relatively tiny gathering of XR campaigners in Parliament Square all day sure seems a massive waste of money. And then there's the vast amount of cops all standing by. What on earth are they expecting?



Maybe it’s an air ambulance.  They’ve got quite a lot of pensioners.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 2, 2020)

muscovyduck said:


> I was actually just gobbing off about this. I suffered a really bad bereavement recently with an awful fallout that everyone in the local community knew about but because I tend to score highly in intersectional bingo for this area someone who really should have sent me condolences or help instead sent me a summons to an xr event. Not an invite. A demand that I attend and be involved or watch. Same narcisistic evangelical bollocks I've seen from a lot of other activist groups and not something I'm going anywhere near with a bargepole. I even saw one of the local XR group wandering around the highstreet trying to sell their newspaper a few month back


XR have got a newspaper?


----------



## muscovyduck (Sep 2, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> XR have got a newspaper?


looks like you can find it online at Hourglass Newspaper Archives - Extinction Rebellion UK


----------



## ddraig (Sep 2, 2020)

They messaged a group I'm involved in asking for help and kit as some people did get involved last year, no real please or thanks.
When they were asked if any of their members would like to help our group they didn't even acknowledge it and asked if we knew anyone with a building/yard/space they could use!


----------



## TopCat (Sep 3, 2020)

So they are camped out in parliament square?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 3, 2020)

TopCat said:


> So they are camped out in parliament square?


This one I think









						Vigil for the Earth – Extinction Rebellion UK
					

United in fierce love for our sacred Earth, we will sit in vigil for the Earth for seven days and nights. We will hold a space of peace and hope amongst the chaos, grounded in our faith, in our trust in each other, and in our love of the Earth. Join us! All are welcome, […]




					extinctionrebellion.uk


----------



## editor (Sep 3, 2020)

Photos from yesterday 




































						In photos: Extinction Rebellion in Trafalgar Square, London, 2nd September 2020 - urban75: art, photos, walks
					

Here's a series of 37 photos taken at the Extinction Rebellion occupation of Parliament Square in London yesterday. Despite the large police presence surrounding the square and a helicopter hovering overhead, the event was peaceful, with talks, performers and free food. Here's what I saw: What's...




					www.urban75.org


----------



## TopCat (Sep 3, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This one I think
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is so wet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 3, 2020)

editor said:


> The helicopter expensively hovering over the relatively tiny gathering of XR campaigners in Parliament Square all day sure seems a massive waste of money. And then there's the vast amount of cops all standing by. What on earth are they expecting?


fun


----------



## MrSki (Sep 5, 2020)

I really feel sorry for those poor people not getting their gutter press today.    









						Extinction Rebellion protesters block newspaper printing presses
					

Eighty people are arrested in protests targeting printing presses owned by Rupert Murdoch.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 5, 2020)

MrSki said:


> I really feel sorry for those poor people not getting their gutter press today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> The presses print the Rupert Murdoch-owned News Corp titles including the Sun, the Times, the Sun on Sunday, the Sunday Times, and the Scottish Sun. They also print the Daily Telegraph and Sunday Telegraph, the Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday, and the London Evening Standard.



Oh dear, what a shame, never mind.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2020)

The vermin on Social Media this morning are a mass of frothing mouthed _victims _casting XR as Nazis denying them their _free speech._
lol


----------



## andysays (Sep 5, 2020)

As someone who was involved in picketing Wapping in the 80s, blockading the Murdoch press gets my full support.

This sort of targeting economic action seems like a different approach to what I've been aware of XR doing before, and a positive development, however it eventually turns out.


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 5, 2020)

Its pissed me off. Terminal ill  father in law wanted paper this morning.none to be had.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 5, 2020)

Doctor, my sides:


----------



## brogdale (Sep 5, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Not very good though, are they. Revives this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was that post that provoked what was to be Graeber's last tweet before he died.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 5, 2020)

yeah, any chance of them actually doing some of that ‘holding to account’ business rather than fighting for the interests of their wealthy owners, you inflated turkey scrotum?


----------



## MrSki (Sep 5, 2020)

Think of the poor newsagents who had to sack their paper boys/girls cos the papers were delivered late.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 5, 2020)

So if they get a late delivery they just sack the paperboys and girls

hope their shops burn down


----------



## Ground Elder (Sep 5, 2020)

Fair play for that one XR. I also liked this, although I've not read the panels, so may yet find something to quibble with


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 6, 2020)

I love how the Echo writes The S*n  in it's reporting of the blockade on Merseyside 










						30 arrested after protesters block newspaper printing site
					

Papers such as The Times, The Daily Mail and The S*n were delayed arriving at shops this morning




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 17, 2020)

Extinction Rebellion 'go floppy' when arrested, complains senior Met officer
					

Protesters’ arrest tactic is a ‘pain in the neck’, Sir Stephen House tells committee hearing




					www.theguardian.com
				






> One of Britain’s most senior police officers has launched an angry tirade against Extinction Rebellion protesters going “all floppy” when they get arrested.
> 
> Sir Stephen House, the deputy commissioner of the Metropolitan police, said the tactic of going limp was a “flipping nuisance” as it required extra officers to drag protesters away.
> 
> House told a London assembly police and crime committee hearing: “We have asked them to stop being floppy. And that might seem like a silly thing to say, but when we arrest them and pick them up, they go all floppy, which is why you see four or five officers carrying them away. It’s a complete waste of officers’ time, and a complete pain in the neck.”


----------



## Celyn (Sep 17, 2020)

Great! Have badges made saying "Stop Being Floppy" .
I used to think XR a bit dodgy, but upsetting Stephen House is good.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 17, 2020)

“We have asked them to stop being floppy.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2020)

Celyn said:


> Great! Have badges made saying "Stop Being Floppy" .
> I used to think XR a bit dodgy, but upsetting Stephen House is good.


He'll forever be known as floppy house


----------



## kenny g (Sep 19, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> “We have asked them to stop being floppy.”



Reminds me of the complaints by Cressida Dick that ER were misusing the law by being non-violent and thereby not being able to attract sufficient penalties for their actions. Followed by the suggestion that stiffer penalties need to be introduced for non-violent actions.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 19, 2020)

Funny also how the met have got plenty of time for pusuing the likes of Extincion rebellion but refuse to open an investigation into cummings alleged second trip to Durham because they 'haven't got the resources'.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> He'll forever be known as floppy house




If only Cressida had made this complaint...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 25, 2020)

DaveCinzano said:


> You mean Roger Hallam?


Imagine how humiliated he must feel that his supporters don't know his name, as in this graffiti I spotted just off Holloway road today


----------



## freakydave (Sep 25, 2020)

Sounds like my ex wife


----------



## 8ball (Sep 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Imagine how humiliated he must feel that his supporters don't know his name, as in this graffiti I spotted just off Holloway road todayView attachment 231776



Actually, you get a free Roger Hallan with every large pizza you buy at that place.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 25, 2020)

8ball said:


> Actually, you get a free Roger Hallan with every large pizza you buy at that place.


To Hallan back


----------



## smokedout (Nov 11, 2020)

Another public relations triumph.









						Extinction Rebellion hang climate change banner at Cenotaph on Remembrance Day
					

Extinction Rebellion protesters have hung a climate change banner and placed a wreath at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day.




					www.lbc.co.uk


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 11, 2020)

8ball said:


> Actually, you get a free Roger Hallan with every large pizza you buy at that place.


I still swing by the place advertising free gazza.

I hope he brings his fishing rod.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 11, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Another public relations triumph.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is correct though. Uncomfortable as it may be.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 11, 2020)

Boris Sprinkler said:


> He is correct though. Uncomfortable as it may be.


Entirely correct. Way before the direct effects of climate change hit western Europe, the social effects will be unavoidable - mass movements of climate refugees and wars caused by resource competition. They're already happening in fact. Millions of people are going to be in unliveable conditions within a decade; what do people think is going to happen?


----------



## Red Sky (Nov 11, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Another public relations triumph.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thought it was a good stunt myself. Especially as it was by a forces veteran,  which is giving the gammons issues.


----------



## LDC (Nov 12, 2020)

Yeah, I was expecting to think it was a shit idea and a 'PR disaster' or similar but watched it and thought it was OK, the bloke was quite articulate and sensible too.


----------



## chilango (Nov 12, 2020)

tbh - whatever the wisdom of this stunt - most of the people frothing about it would do so if XR gave out free lollies and helped old ladies across the road.

Plus 11/11 is a traditional site for r/w virtue signalling about "our boys" and the lack of respect of wearing the wrong type of coat or whatever...


----------



## killer b (Nov 12, 2020)

This looks like a solid action tbh. Reclaiming remembrance from grim faced flag-shagging politicians can't come soon enough.


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## smokedout (Nov 12, 2020)

hmm, maybe I just dislike them so much I can no longer be objective.


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## Red Sky (Nov 12, 2020)

smokedout said:


> hmm, maybe I just dislike them so much I can no longer be objective.



It's pretty de rigueur to hate XR.  They're the new SWP in that regard.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 12, 2020)

Don't really see it myself. Well, not in a charitable way. Okay, exclusively in an uncharitable way.


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## Red Sky (Nov 12, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Don't really see it myself. Well, not in a charitable way. Okay, exclusively in an uncharitable way.



See what?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 12, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> See what?


why people would hate XR


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## smokedout (Nov 13, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> why people would hate XR



Because they're run by a bunch of posh arrogant clowns with no real answers, solutions or even coherent politics with a strategy cobbled together by some know nothing dickhead who thinks he's some kind of messiah because he read half a shit book about political movements once.


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## Larry O'Hara (Nov 13, 2020)

would the dickhead be Rupert Read? I think XR are a mixed bag, but the delusion they are non-ideological and the naive advocacy of ‘sortition’ shows their overall strategy to be, putting it delicately, woeful.


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## Red Sky (Nov 13, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Because they're run by a bunch of posh arrogant clowns with no real answers, solutions or even coherent politics with a strategy cobbled together by some know nothing dickhead who thinks he's some kind of messiah because he read half a shit book about political movements once.




They're hated by the radical Left because the radical Left feel ignored.


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## Red Sky (Nov 13, 2020)

Larry O'Hara said:


> would the dickhead be Rupert Read? I think XR are a mixed bag, but the delusion they are non-ideological and the naive advocacy of ‘sortition’ shows their overall strategy to be, putting it delicately, woeful.



Read seems to have moved away from the Chenoweth stuff,  which was very much Hallam's bag.  He has effectively ousted Hallam in a palace coup. 

XR is a weird sprawling mix. It's not decentralised but it's not exactly top down either.


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## Hearse Pileup (Nov 13, 2020)

I don't hate them, I think some of the actions they are doing are pretty good, but their refusal to criticise capitalism makes me very dubious.

Gotta admit they have good visual communication skills though.


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## Red Sky (Nov 13, 2020)

How to write about XR

It's that time of year again. Extinction Rebellion are out on the streets embarrassing us all,  protesting all the things we hate but getting it so so wrong. The readership of your post Marxist blog “Why does nobody like me?” are demanding your hot take. Here's how.

The Climate Crisis - It's so massive, so bed wettingly terrifying that it's worth just brushing past in your first paragraph. Rueful shakes of the head and phrases like “Of course we ALL understand...” will serve you well here. Make the point that you were initially sympathetic to XR s aims before becoming disillusioned.

Class -Put class at the centre of your critique, ignore any issues your background might cause and emphasise whatever shit job you might be doing for six months while you wait for the right PhD to come up. Sprinkle a few names like Tarquin or Tabitha about and definitely mention Waitrose. For a final flourish intimate that all XR will immediately fly to Goa after the Rebellion. So get in a few good digs about face paint and hula hoops. 

Eco Fascism – extremely important this one. You must be very worried about it. Behind Gail Bradbrook lurks the ghost of Josef Goebbels. Without your searing critique the face painted  Waitrose Mums (see above) will be rounding people up in football stadiums by the end of the year.

Experienced activists - XR didn't listen to you or put you in charge. You barely know any of them and the networking opportunities are dire. Cloak this by expressing fear that XR haven't listened to seasoned veterans such as yourself and this lack of experience in the trenches will prevent them from building the kind of successful social movement you have a dozen times at least.

The Police – XR love the police. Just get straight in there and say you saw Roger Hallam tongue wrestling with Cressida Dick out the back of Scotland Yard. Nobody will check. This will buy you credibility with PoC and you might even be invited to join a drill crew. “Structural” is a good word here. Gloss over any door knocking you may have done promising the proles 10,000 extra Babylon last December. 1312!

Violence – You are very much in favour of it. XR shouldn't be sitting in the road , they should be shooting capitalists in the head. Unless that makes people late for work or something.

Conclusion – Any old commie fridge magnet shite. “Militant” , “working class communities”, “strong links to unions”, “class based approach”. You know the score

Good luck.


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## Hearse Pileup (Nov 13, 2020)

I have friends in XR and believe in the work they're doing, I'm just less trustful of XR the entity in general.


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## smokedout (Nov 13, 2020)

Red Sky said:


> How to write about XR
> 
> It's that time of year again. Extinction Rebellion are out on the streets embarrassing us all,  protesting all the things we hate but getting it so so wrong. The readership of your post Marxist blog “Why does nobody like me?” are demanding your hot take. Here's how.
> 
> ...



It's precisely this kind of sneering that makes me hate them.  There's no attempt at all to engage with any criticism, it's all haha we're so much wittier and cleverer and beyond politics than you boring olds going on about capitalism all the time.  It's fucking distilled hipster neoliberalism, all brand, no substance, on top of a load of guilt driven middle class self sacrifice that only serves to fuel the superiority complex.


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## smokedout (Nov 13, 2020)

Hearse Pileup said:


> I have friends in XR and believe in the work they're doing, I'm just less trustful of XR the entity in general.



Agree with this, it's the leadership and the way they dominate, promote and present the movement that is the problem.


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## Red Sky (Nov 13, 2020)

smokedout said:


> It's precisely this kind of sneering that makes me hate them.  There's no attempt at all to engage with any criticism, it's all haha we're so much wittier and cleverer and beyond politics than you boring olds going on about capitalism all the time.  It's fucking distilled hipster neoliberalism, all brand, no substance, on top of a load of guilt driven middle class self sacrifice that only serves to fuel the superiority complex.



I wrote that because I'm just fed up of the relentless sneering criticism XR draw.


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## nyxx (Nov 14, 2020)

If you criticise XR this makes you personally responsible for a portion of melting permafrost, some hectares of Amazonian wildfire, and the end of at least one species.


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## NoXion (Nov 15, 2020)

I dislike XR because whether they know it or not, they agitate for eco-austerity. They want the government to declare an emergency, presumably granting them extraordinary powers in the process. They seem to talk a lot about Citizens' Assemblies, but for this to work effectively relies on the cooperation of the very same political structures that XR claims to want to move beyond. What would ensure that the current political order doesn't just use such assemblies as a democratic figleaf for making ordinary people pay for the environmental damage of capital?

Also their antics on the ground do not exactly fill me with confidence. Like that ridiculous incident in which some XR protestors apparently decided that the best place for an action was on the rail network. You know, the common form of public transport that most people are at least vaguely aware is more environmentally friendly than going by car. I think I've heard the excuse that targeting the rail network would reach a wider audience, but this is also an audience which you've just directly inconvenienced while they were on their way to work. I'm no expert on human psychology, but my instincts tell me that most people aren't going to be in a very receptive mindset if you've just annoyed them.


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## LDC (Nov 15, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I dislike XR because whether they know it or not, they agitate for eco-austerity. They want the government to declare an emergency, presumably granting them extraordinary powers in the process. They seem to talk a lot about Citizens' Assemblies, but for this to work effectively relies on the cooperation of the very same political structures that XR claims to want to move beyond. What would ensure that the current political order doesn't just use such assemblies as a democratic figleaf for making ordinary people pay for the environmental damage of capital?
> 
> Also their antics on the ground do not exactly fill me with confidence. Like that ridiculous incident in which some XR protestors apparently decided that the best place for an action was on the rail network. You know, the common form of public transport that most people are at least vaguely aware is more environmentally friendly than going by car. I think I've heard the excuse that targeting the rail network would reach a wider audience, but this is also an audience which you've just directly inconvenienced while they were on their way to work. I'm no expert on human psychology, but my instincts tell me that most people aren't going to be in a very receptive mindset if you've just annoyed them.



I mostly agree with the first paragraph, though it's often a problem with all movements; recuperation of radical demands into something that fits capital rather than anything else. I guess an issue is whether there's something inherent with what XR are asking/doing that makes it more likely, and what they then do if that becomes more of something materially real. I expect they'd be split along clearer political lines if it did become a serious issue which would probably be a good thing. I agree that the bits of XR that are the weakest are the bits you mention, the citizen's assemblies in particular, and I do think they need to make more of a political point that they are against that kind of eco-austerity.

The second bit I'm less convinced by. The action you mention was totally shit for a whole host of reasons, but from what I understand most of XR were against it, and a few people went on and did it anyway against the wishes of the group/movement. I think that's partly a problem with their decision making and structure, but it's also a problem for any movement or group that gets beyond a certain size and popularity, and plenty of shit stuff happens in riots and revolutions to take a extreme example.


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## Hearse Pileup (Nov 16, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think that's partly a problem with their decision making and structure, but it's also a problem for any movement or group that gets beyond a certain size and popularity, and plenty of shit stuff happens in riots and revolutions to take a extreme example.



True, but I don't think it's helped by their decentralised-but-not organisation model. On top of which, as you already mentioned, this cuts both ways because they can dissasociate themselves from _all_ percieved-harmful actions; whether helpful or not. Their refusal as an organisation to see climate change (and resisting it) as political is myopic at best, and willfully negligent/counterproductive at worst.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2020)

Hearse Pileup said:


> True, but I don't think it's helped by their decentralised-but-not organisation model. On top of which, as you already mentioned, this cuts both ways because they can dissasociate themselves from _all_ percieved-harmful actions; whether helpful or not. Their refusal as an organisation to see climate change (and resisting it) as political is myopic at best, and willfully negligent/counterproductive at worst.


the tyranny of faux structurelessness


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## LDC (Nov 16, 2020)

Hearse Pileup said:


> True, but I don't think it's helped by their decentralised-but-not organisation model. On top of which, as you already mentioned, this cuts both ways because they can dissasociate themselves from _all_ percieved-harmful actions; whether helpful or not. Their refusal as an organisation to see climate change (and resisting it) as political is myopic at best, and willfully negligent/counterproductive at worst.



Yeah, their organisational model is a bit problematic, but structure/organistional form/whatever is something _all_ political organisations on the left really struggle with, and they're no different in that way. I do totally agree that one of the most important and valid criticisms of them is the 'beyond politics/we're not political' stuff they come out with, but that is controversial within XR too isn't it, and some of the XR groups clearly don't abide by that in reality?

I do think a more interesting discussions would be what stuff they've got right. Why have they got hundreds of thousands of people on the streets all over the world, when many of us struggle to get 10 people to lots of our events?


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## Hearse Pileup (Nov 16, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I do think a more interesting discussions would be what stuff they've got right. Why have they got hundreds of thousands of people on the streets all over the world, when many of us struggle to get 10 people to lots of our events?



I think good visual communications plays a big role, I can't help thinking that some of this comes from their very willingness to be 'beyond politics' - makes designers less antsy about getting involved.

I also think the environment is a good rallying point because it's something people can't really push back on that easily. Literally saving the planet is a hard cause to disagree with. I also think that encouraging this kind of self-organising structure with a loose set of central principles helps strengthen a network of activist groups. I have friends who are very involved with BLM and XR; but we've had these exact kind of discussions too about problems with the main organising body.

Personally I think the better you can educate your peers to self-organise, the more strength a movement has - even if its goals dilute somewhat.

I think it's undeniable that, despite any criticisms I'm making, XR have moved the needle on these issues more than anything I can think of in recent memory. With the potential exception of Black Lives Matter - though I think public opinion probably sways against BLM slightly more than XR. If that's something you care about - I'm not sure it always needs to be if the work you're doing is necessary for your direct community.


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## smokedout (Nov 17, 2020)

> They seem to talk a lot about Citizens' Assemblies, but for this to work effectively relies on the cooperation of the very same political structures that XR claims to want to move beyond.



The latest from Hallam's splinter group which has some support from local XR groups seems to be that parliamentary democracy should be abolished and that everything should be decided by Citizen's Assemblies led by 'experts' and based on sortition.  When you ask who picks the experts, and who decides what's up for debate, all you get back are a load of slogans about power to the people man.  Whilst patently ridiculous I think this really shows where the beyond politics nonsense leads.  An undemocratic all powerful administration wielding power through assemblies rubber stamping decisions made by state appointed experts on a sector by sector basis really does start to look uncomfortably similar to Fascism.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> The latest from Hallam's splinter group which has some support from local XR groups seems to be that parliamentary democracy should be abolished and that everything should be decided by Citizen's Assemblies led by 'experts' and based on sortition.  When you ask who picks the experts, and who decides what's up for debate, all you get back are a load of slogans about power to the people man.  Whilst patently ridiculous I think this really shows where the beyond politics nonsense leads.  An undemocratic all powerful administration wielding power through assemblies rubber stamping decisions made by state appointed experts on a sector by sector basis really does start to look uncomfortably similar to Fascism.


I don't know if this is fair. Our politicians mostly aren't experts are they? Not even ministers. So at the moment we have a parliament/executive that makes decisions informed by experts, and he's suggesting that instead we have randomly selected groups of people doing that instead, with the idea that that would undermine the powerful interest groups that hold the party politics-dominated processes in stasis during a time of existential crisis.

It's got problems as a system but I can see the political logic behind it and I think you're unnecessarily reading the worst possible interpretation into it. Or perhaps I should say: I don't agree with you that it would be _less_ democratic than our current system.


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## smokedout (Nov 18, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I don't know if this is fair. Our politicians mostly aren't experts are they? Not even ministers. So at the moment we have a parliament/executive that makes decisions informed by experts, and he's suggesting that instead we have randomly selected groups of people doing that instead, with the idea that that would undermine the powerful interest groups that hold the party politics-dominated processes in stasis during a time of existential crisis.
> 
> It's got problems as a system but I can see the political logic behind it and I think you're unnecessarily reading the worst possible interpretation into it. Or perhaps I should say: I don't agree with you that it would be _less_ democratic than our current system.



Of course it would be.  It's complete disenfranchisement, you don't even get a vote anymore you get a lottery ticket.  A remote chance of being expected to attend a committee discussing building regulations or something else you know nothing about whilst a state appointed expert tells you what to decide.  And so there's still a state, there has to be, because this isn't bottom up consensus led politics coming from workers or communities, it's top down edicts which will have to be enforced.  Who makes the decisions about that?  The power of the state does not depend on the charade in Parliament, all that does is swap the actors round now and then.  How does this hidden dictatorship respond to resistance either from us or capital?  How does it respond to a general strike or a war?  How does it respond to assembly decisons it doesn't like?  How long before the rhetoric of crisis is used to suspend the assemblies in the national interest?

It's a blueprint for dictatorship, presumably led by the last ones standing when the system is introduced, which in Roger Hallam's daft mind is the Beyond Politics Party after a glorious election win.  If I noticed that I'm sure he has.  And it's such a shit plan lol.


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## NoXion (Nov 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Of course it would be.  It's complete disenfranchisement, you don't even get a vote anymore you get a lottery ticket.  A remote chance of being expected to attend a committee discussing building regulations or something else you know nothing about whilst a state appointed expert tells you what to decide.  And so there's still a state, there has to be, because this isn't bottom up consensus led politics coming from workers or communities, it's top down edicts which will have to be enforced.  Who makes the decisions about that?  The power of the state does not depend on the charade in Parliament, all that does is swap the actors round now and then.  How does this hidden dictatorship respond to resistance either from us or capital?  How does it respond to a general strike or a war?  How does it respond to assembly decisons it doesn't like?  How long before the rhetoric of crisis is used to suspend the assemblies in the national interest?
> 
> It's a blueprint for dictatorship, presumably led by the last ones standing when the system is introduced, which in Roger Hallam's daft mind is the Beyond Politics Party after a glorious election win.  If I noticed that I'm sure he has.  And it's such a shit plan lol.



Wait a minute, there's a "Beyond Politics" party that runs in elections? That seems... muddle-headed, to say the least.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Wait a minute, there's a "Beyond Politics" party that runs in elections? That seems... muddle-headed, to say the least.


never mind that seeming muddle-headed, have you noticed the phenomenon of people from one political party attacking other politicians for playing politics?

eg Success of free food for kids leaves bitter taste


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## smokedout (Nov 18, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Wait a minute, there's a "Beyond Politics" party that runs in elections? That seems... muddle-headed, to say the least.



They seem to have changed their name:  Burning Pink - Wikipedia


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## NoXion (Nov 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> never mind that seeming muddle-headed, have you noticed the phenomenon of people from one political party attacking other politicians for playing politics?
> 
> eg Success of free food for kids leaves bitter taste



How fucking dumb do you have to be to accuse a fellow politician of "playing politics"... that's literally what they get paid to fucking do. Cunts.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> They seem to have changed their name:  Burning Pink - Wikipedia


they'd do better if they'd become the be punky party

or the boris punishment party


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## Brainaddict (Nov 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Of course it would be.  It's complete disenfranchisement, you don't even get a vote anymore you get a lottery ticket.  A remote chance of being expected to attend a committee discussing building regulations or something else you know nothing about whilst a state appointed expert tells you what to decide.  And so there's still a state, there has to be, because this isn't bottom up consensus led politics coming from workers or communities, it's top down edicts which will have to be enforced.  Who makes the decisions about that?  The power of the state does not depend on the charade in Parliament, all that does is swap the actors round now and then.  How does this hidden dictatorship respond to resistance either from us or capital?  How does it respond to a general strike or a war?  How does it respond to assembly decisons it doesn't like?  How long before the rhetoric of crisis is used to suspend the assemblies in the national interest?
> 
> It's a blueprint for dictatorship, presumably led by the last ones standing when the system is introduced, which in Roger Hallam's daft mind is the Beyond Politics Party after a glorious election win.  If I noticed that I'm sure he has.  And it's such a shit plan lol.


I'm still not clear on why this new system is so much more objectionable than the current system. You think the parliamentary system is good at responding to resistance from us?  How does my vote every four years put me in charge of the state at the moment? How did the parliament-led state respond to a general strike? How is the dictatorship of hippies worse than the dictatorship of capital we live under? I'm happy to see critique of RH's ideas but not on the basis it would be _so terrible_ compared to parliamentary democracy. 

Of course, if you compare RH's system to the perfect system you have in your head, it's definitely not as good as that, but most people will be comparing it to the parliamentary democracy we have.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 18, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> I'm still not clear on why this new system is so much more objectionable than the current system. You think the parliamentary system is good at responding to resistance from us?  How does my vote every four years put me in charge of the state at the moment? How did the parliament-led state respond to a general strike? How is the dictatorship of hippies worse than the dictatorship of capital we live under? I'm happy to see critique of RH's ideas but not on the basis it would be _so terrible_ compared to parliamentary democracy.
> 
> Of course, if you compare RH's system to the perfect system you have in your head, it's definitely not as good as that, but most people will be comparing it to the parliamentary democracy we have.



Are you seriously arguing we'd be better off under a dictatorship?   How do we win anything under that system?  What's the point of protests and strikes if decisons are made by unaccountable committees?  What kind of monstrously violent state structures would be required to keep the inevitable dissent in check?

Yes the current system is shit, but it is a system forged out of compromises due to centuries of class antagonism. What if a committee decides to scrap social security to save money and the administration decides the debate is now closed, permanently? How do we get rid of them?  How do we get rid of a Thatcher?  Or a Mussolini?  Or Roger Hallam?  You think he will schedule a committee for his own demise?  The only people outside of such a state to have power would be capitalists, who in the absence of economic revolution will be needed to pay for everything.  And even if by some miracle an assembly decided to abolish private property how does that work when capital says fuck off?  Without a mass working class movement it can only be achieved by top down ultra-violence, and if we've got a mass working class movement capable of abolishing capitalism then we don't need a bunch of hippies scheduling assemblies on our behalf.  So about the best you could say about his plans is that oh well if it swings left we'll get something like Stalinism.  And given 'beyond politics' seems to mean capitalism without politicians it's very unlikely to swing left.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Are you seriously arguing we'd be better off under a dictatorship?   How do we win anything under that system?  What's the point of protests and strikes if decisons are made by unaccountable committees?  What kind of monstrously violent state structures would be required to keep the inevitable dissent in check?
> 
> Yes the current system is shit, but it is a system forged out of compromises due to centuries of class antagonism. What if a committee decides to scrap social security to save money and the administration decides the debate is now closed, permanently? How do we get rid of them?  How do we get rid of a Thatcher?  Or a Mussolini?  Or Roger Hallam?  You think he will schedule a committee for his own demise?  The only people outside of such a state to have power would be capitalists, who in the absence of economic revolution will be needed to pay for everything.  And even if by some miracle an assembly decided to abolish private property how does that work when capital says fuck off?  Without a mass working class movement it can only be achieved by top down ultra-violence, and if we've got a mass working class movement capable of abolishing capitalism then we don't need a bunch of hippies scheduling assemblies on our behalf.  So about the best you could say about his plans is that oh well if it swings left we'll get something like Stalinism.  And given 'beyond politics' seems to mean capitalism without politicians it's very unlikely to swing left.


Sorry, I just don't see it. It's just another system of representation - with sortition attempting to get a cross-section of the population's views rather than through voting for parties (not a system known for picking up the nuances of people's views itself). All systems of representation have problems, but at a large scale it's difficult to get away from it altogether.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> Sorry, I just don't see it. It's just another system of representation - with sortition attempting to get a cross-section of the population's views rather than through voting for parties (not a system known for picking up the nuances of people's views itself). All systems of representation have problems, but at a large scale it's difficult to get away from it altogether.


i am astonished that you don't think about how people engage with their mps between elections, such as writing to them, lobbying them at parliament or visiting their surgeries.

sure, we don't live in a democracy. but we do live in a society where people routinely bring their concerns to their mps' attention. hell, even in russia people bring things to putin's attention and now and then he listens to them.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 18, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Are you seriously arguing we'd be better off under a dictatorship?   How do we win anything under that system?  What's the point of protests and strikes if decisons are made by unaccountable committees?  What kind of monstrously violent state structures would be required to keep the inevitable dissent in check?


So to answer these questions in order: 
1. I don't think it's any more a dictactorship than what we have now. 
2. I assume you would establish social movements with mass membership so that you could make sure your people got selected regularly. 
3. This question is so absurd to someone involved in ignored strikes and protests for 20 years that I don't know how to answer it. 
4. Same as now I guess, so definitely less than ideal.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2020)

Brainaddict said:


> So to answer these questions in order:
> 1. I don't think it's any more a dictactorship than what we have now.


generally in a dictatorship the dictator er dictates. if you see the number of embarrassing u-turns the current administration has had to make - despite their 80 seat majority in the commons - it's clear we don't in fact live in a dictatorship. so sure say we live in a dictatorship if you want. but you just make yourself look very very stupid to anyone who has studied real dictatorships like stalin's russia, hitler's germany or franco's spain.


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## smokedout (Nov 20, 2020)

Thanks for that, I did try to respond but lost the will to live halfway through and had to go get a drink.


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## tufty79 (Dec 5, 2020)

.


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## tufty79 (Dec 5, 2020)

smokedout said:


> Because they're run by a bunch of posh arrogant clowns with no real answers, solutions or even coherent politics with a strategy cobbled together by some know nothing dickhead who thinks he's some kind of messiah because he read half a shit book about political movements once.


I'm going through the thread backwards,  so sorry if this has been pointed out.
If we're talking Hallam, he cofounded radical routes 20+ years ago.

If I ever meet him, there will be trouble, the culty fucker.


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## Red Sky (Dec 5, 2020)

tufty79 said:


> I'm going through the thread backwards,  so sorry if this has been pointed out.
> If we're talking Hallam, he cofounded radical routes 20+ years ago.
> 
> If I ever meet him, there will be trouble, the culty fucker.



He's fairly easy to find.  

Are you saying RR is a cult?


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## tufty79 (Dec 5, 2020)

My experience is that they certainly engage in cult like tactics (specific members, and the long term v involved organisers, at least). I'm a former member.

I only found out about the link between er and rr the other week -  I've steered clear of local activists and keeping up with movements for a few years. I kept well away from er because I knew that all the local coops would be in the midst, I just didn't realise how deep in. I don't think I'm going to be going out of my way to find/meet him, but I might send him a Strongly Worded Letter if/when I feel ready to.


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## LDC (Dec 8, 2020)

Absolutely shit cringing interview with Gail Bradbrook on Radio 4 this morning. She went on about her hippie retreat, some psychedelic consciousness claptrap, and how people were environmental war criminals or something. Serves me right for listening to Radio 4 really.


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## ska invita (Dec 9, 2020)

Is there a climate change thread on the go other than this one?
It is good to see that zero emissions for the UK is pretty easily achievable if there were the will (though it won't be, based on whats required) 








						Ending UK’s climate emissions ‘affordable’, say official advisers
					

CCC recommendation includes half of cars being electric by 2030, gas boilers phased out and 10,000 wind turbines




					www.theguardian.com
				



...i presume (might be wrong) this ignore the carbon footprint of the UKs imports, which since we have basically externalised our industrial working class, handily makes for clever carbon bookkeeping ??
and if that is the case, is there a way of seeing the UK carbon footprint including all imports?


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## Johnny Vodka (Dec 9, 2020)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Absolutely shit cringing interview with Gail Bradbrook on Radio 4 this morning. She went on about her hippie retreat, some psychedelic consciousness claptrap, and how people were environmental war criminals or something. Serves me right for listening to Radio 4 really.



I didn't hear it, but there's a link between the use of psychedelics and appreciation of nature - it's not hippie nonsense.   I don't really have a problem with someone or something being labelled an environmental war criminal (or similar) either. Corporations, businesses and us as individuals need to become a lot more environmentally responsible.


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Is there a climate change thread on the go other than this one?
> It is good to see that zero emissions for the UK is pretty easily achievable if there were the will (though it won't be, based on whats required)
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly.    What does zero emissions even mean?  especially in a global context. Will I have to pay extra carbon tax if I burn the toast?  It's a buzzword at best.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 9, 2020)

BB1 is doing environmental science at college for A level, it's by far her favourite subject and is extremely interesting, also quite depressing as the conclusion to pretty much everything = fucked. Will check with her to what definition of zero-carbon they are working from.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Dec 9, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Exactly.    What does zero emissions even mean?  especially in a global context. Will I have to pay extra carbon tax if I burn the toast?  It's a buzzword at best.



This is why we need to work together globally and can't retreat into an "our country first" bubble.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 9, 2020)

As I travelled from Penzance to Paignton on Saturday they were putting up banners on all the bridges on the A30. By the time I headed back on Sunday they were all down. 

Also welcome back tufty79.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 9, 2020)

According to BB1 carbon zero is zero carbon emitted which can’t happen unless we all stop breathing and farting. Carbon neutral can be achieved but does not reflect the carbon we outsource to China and the other places we get to make our crap for us, so on a planetary scales it’s bobbins, but still better than nothing...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 9, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> According to BB1 carbon zero is zero carbon emitted which can’t happen unless we all stop breathing and farting. Carbon neutral can be achieved but does not reflect the carbon we outsource to China and the other places we get to make our crap for us, so on a planetary scales it’s bobbins, but still better than nothing...


I know there are some moves in the EU to include outsourced carbon (and environmental impact generally) in figures, given that it's kind of breathtakingly hypocritical to claim you're doing your bit and point the figure at countries where they actually do your manufacturing. Whether they have any chance I don't know. But we're still fucked either way so eh.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 20, 2021)

XR's "help tha police" strategy going laughably wrong there.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 20, 2021)

That's like helping a school bully with their homework, so they get a better mark than you, then they report you for copying them.


----------



## editor (Jan 20, 2021)

Protest this morning















						Extinction Rebellion Lambeth protest at Town Hall: no more baby steps to save the planet, activists tell council
					

This morning, forty pairs of children’s shoes were placed on the steps of Lambeth Town Hall today by environment activists Extinction Rebellion, in protest at the council’s “lack of urgent ac…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 27, 2021)

It seems some people have dug tunnels under Euston Sq. Gardens to try and stop HS2 and more specifically, the gardens being paved over for a taxi rank...

HS2 protesters dig 100ft tunnel under London park

Impressively mad.

I mention it here because XR are promoting it and asking for ''help at Euston Square'' on twitter, so they're related somehow.


----------



## campanula (Jan 27, 2021)

Campaign News & Oaky Stuff
					

Follow My Blog Get new content delivered directly to your inbox.




					savetheoaks.org
				




I put in an order for 100 saplings.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 27, 2021)

editor said:


> Protest this morning
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's probably unfair to presume but I imagine these are the boots of 40 children that XR had remanded directly to Belmarsh.


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 27, 2021)

mauvais said:


> It's probably unfair to presume but I imagine these are the boots of 40 children that XR had remanded directly to Belmarsh.



What does that even mean?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 27, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> What does that even mean?




The joy of this is always the explaining isn't it? As we can see here, XR love a bit of inevitably disastrous collaboration with the police and state, so I reckon there's a strong chance that they got the cute lil boot owners semi-voluntarily nicked. A double win for publicity: locked up kids are photogenic, and noone had to drive out to John Lewis and buy forty pairs of tiny shoes.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 27, 2021)

mauvais said:


> View attachment 251709



what the fuck is that??????????????????????


----------



## mauvais (Jan 27, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> what the fuck is that??????????????????????


It's from a 2019 protest, if you can call it that.









						XR Red Handed Rebellion – Extinction Rebellion UK
					

TOMORROW – 18 October 12pm – Whitehall Gardens – Red-Handed Rebellion At the beginning of this Rebellion, we asked the Government one simple question: ‘What is your plan for the Climate and Ecological Emergency?’. So far, the only answer we have been given is that we are protesting in the wrong...




					extinctionrebellion.uk
				






> This will additionally force the police into a dilemma situation


Yeah, of who's going to fall down the stairs first.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 27, 2021)

mauvais said:


> XR Red Handed Rebellion – Extinction Rebellion UK
> 
> 
> TOMORROW – 18 October 12pm – Whitehall Gardens – Red-Handed Rebellion At the beginning of this Rebellion, we asked the Government one simple question: ‘What is your plan for the Climate and Ecological Emergency?’. So far, the only answer we have been given is that we are protesting in the wrong...
> ...



I'm howling. Why did no one research red hand imagery and symbolism in the UK? As in, the bits of the UK that aren't London or England? Pretty sloppy for a group that's dealing with such a geo-political based issue like climate change, to put it mildly


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

The HS2 protest tunnels seem crazy to me. A friend who knows says there are a lot of vulnerable youngsters down there.


----------



## LDC (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The HS2 protest tunnels seem crazy to me. A friend who knows says there are a lot of vulnerable youngsters down there.



If so that's the same as every site protest thing, they attract all sorts of people, plenty from the vulnerable/margins. Not a failure of them, a failure of society though. Although I know it does raise some problems and issues for sure.


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 28, 2021)

mauvais said:


> View attachment 251709
> 
> The joy of this is always the explaining isn't it? As we can see here, XR love a bit of inevitably disastrous collaboration with the police and state, so I reckon there's a strong chance that they got the cute lil boot owners semi-voluntarily nicked. A double win for publicity: locked up kids are photogenic, and noone had to drive out to John Lewis and buy forty pairs of tiny shoes.




Right, and how many people ended up in Belmarsh for that  ? Or even got nicked?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 28, 2021)

_sigh_

I reckon about 40?


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 28, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If so that's the same as every site protest thing, they attract all sorts of people, plenty from the vulnerable/margins. Not a failure of them, a failure of society though. Although I know it does raise some problems and issues for sure.



Particularly in London.  Somewhere to go . There's no way round it. I thought the 2019 XR rebellions handled the inevitable quite well, although Trafalgar square was getting that way by the end.


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> I'm howling. Why did no one research red hand imagery and symbolism in the UK? As in, the bits of the UK that aren't London or England? Pretty sloppy for a group that's dealing with such a geo-political based issue like climate change, to put it mildly



Is it particularly likely there'd be any confusion especially as this proposal for action (not widely taken up) would leave the silhouette of a hand, which isn't a particularly contentious symbol?


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Is it particularly likely there'd be any confusion especially as this proposal for action (not widely taken up) would leave the silhouette of a hand, which isn't a particularly contentious symbol?


I mean... yeah? If I saw the hashtag #redhandrebellion as they suggested I'd be fucking worried


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> I mean... yeah? If I saw the hashtag #redhandrebellion as they suggested I'd be fucking worried



Not as bad as those "The future's bright, the future's Orange" posters that went up. 

Anyway, this particular proposal didn't really catch on.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jan 28, 2021)

Hug a tree/purgatory 
 Billy nomates on message with this thread?


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Not as bad as those "The future's bright, the future's Orange" posters that went up.
> 
> Anyway, this particular proposal didn't really catch on.


You mean the adverts? It's not the same really. A British direct action group using (for want of a better phrase) very similar branding to a unionist paramilitary group is different to a large corporation using one word in a way that could be constructed as offensive innuendo. That XR press release refers to "decorating the streets" and is pro police.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 28, 2021)

Also just to clarify this isn't just on XR, this is a general political education issue. A lot of British working class kids in places like London won't know about things like this or even that they need to double check for things like this and it's going to get worse.

Edit for clarity


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> You mean the adverts? It's not the same really. A British direct action group using (for want of a better phrase) very similar branding to a unionist paramilitary group is different to a large corporation using one word in a way that could be constructed as offensive innuendo. That XR press release refers to "decorating the streets" and is pro police.


Loyalist paramilitary group


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Also just to clarify this isn't just on XR, this is a general political education issue. A lot of British working class kids in places like London won't know about things like this or even that they need to double check for things like this and it's going to get worse.
> 
> Edit for clarity



I think you say it yourself there . The chance of confusion is minimal.


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The HS2 protest tunnels seem crazy to me. A friend who knows says there are a lot of vulnerable youngsters down there.



That's really shit to hear but considering their whole marketing thing seems to revolve around targeting vulnerable people and youngsters it's not really surprising. That's why the legal strategy that they have been throwing around is so neglectful and shortsighted that is it is criminal.





LynnDoyleCooper said:


> If so that's the same as every site protest thing, they attract all sorts of people, plenty from the vulnerable/margins. Not a failure of them, a failure of society though. Although I know it does raise some problems and issues for sure.



It's defo a problem with all protest movements. Thing is, the other movements I have been involved in at least attempted to put some welfare measures and legal protections in place for people.

 I had a lot of amazing support when I had legal troubles in the Iraq war protests. It was like, here's a lawyer, here's some money for personal costs and fines, would you like some support at court? There was never any attempt to interfere with the decisions I was making about my legal problems.

But XR were very heavily influencing people to take an aggressive approach to the legal problems they were having as a result of the movement. There was a lot of pressure for people to take any case against them to Crown court. They were telling people, under no circumstances accept a caution. There was no support, just pushing people into making sacrifices for the movement.

That might be all well and good for some people but for people that are vulnerable or from an minority or are working class it can really fuck your life up. It's so tone deaf, which is frustrating because in principle XR are right a lot of the time. But their methods of dealing with people in the movement are so forceful, it's really hard for a lot of people to get behind them. 

And on a fundamental level even if everyone was equal, any application of pressure like that detracts from people's autonomy. And that's where its starts looking a bit dark and horrible.

So yeah, it's a hard one. They are undeniably right about a lot. A lot of my close friends have got very involved with them and I would kind of like to back them but I can't help feeling there's something really off about the way they are going about things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> That's really shit to hear but considering their whole marketing thing seems to revolve around targeting vulnerable people and youngsters it's not really surprising. That's why the legal strategy that they have been throwing around is so neglectful and shortsighted that is it is criminal.
> 
> It's defo a problem with all protest movements. Thing is, the other movements I have been involved in at least attempted to put some welfare measures and legal protections in place for people.
> 
> ...


A friend of mine was up in '19 for XR stuff, and she appeared at city magistrates. No one from XR turned up to any of the cases that day.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 28, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> That's really shit to hear but considering their whole marketing thing seems to revolve around targeting vulnerable people and youngsters it's not really surprising. That's why the legal strategy that they have been throwing around is so neglectful and shortsighted that is it is criminal.
> 
> It's defo a problem with all protest movements. Thing is, the other movements I have been involved in at least attempted to put some welfare measures and legal protections in place for people.
> 
> ...


It started off well didn't it? I remember they did a thing where they sort of said "here's everyone who can deal with getting arrested, they'll do the more aggressive stuff" and it was genuinely the least vulnerable people. At some point, I think when the openly pro-police stuff came in, that changed


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> A friend of mine was up in '19 for XR stuff, and she appeared at city magistrates. No one from XR turned up to any of the cases that day.



Seems to be the way of it. The thing that wound me up was the flyers going about telling people to under no circumstances accept a caution. They have no right to be giving out legal advice.

There was that sense of entitlement that wound me up and all tbh. For some people getting arrested has such massive potential for trauma. XR were just blind to that and wheter wilful or not that ignorance will be incredibly harmful to some people.


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> It started off well didn't it? I remember they did a thing where they sort of said "here's everyone who can deal with getting arrested, they'll do the more aggressive stuff" and it was genuinely the least vulnerable people. At some point, I think when the openly pro-police stuff came in, that changed



Yeah, the pro police stuff was part of it defo. I also saw a lot of stuff flying around at the time that was giving legal advice (that obviously was suited To XR) and also encouraging people to go out and have confrontations with the police but just be nice. Now stuff like that just doesn't compute in my head, having had the experiences that I've had. So that's when I started getting a bit worried like.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 28, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> It's defo a problem with all protest movements. Thing is, the other movements I have been involved in at least attempted to put some welfare measures and legal protections in place for people.
> 
> I had a lot of amazing support when I had legal troubles in the Iraq war protests. It was like, here's a lawyer, here's some money for personal costs and fines, would you like some support at court? There was never any attempt to interfere with the decisions I was making about my legal problems.


What was the situation with the student protests and Occupy? I'm not as young as I was but I'm younger than a lot on these boards. I've never known any sort of group activism that isn't me and people like me being exploited as much as possible and then left to my own devices to clear up the mess.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> That's really shit to hear but considering their whole marketing thing seems to revolve around targeting vulnerable people and youngsters it's not really surprising. That's why the legal strategy that they have been throwing around is so neglectful and shortsighted that is it is criminal.
> 
> It's defo a problem with all protest movements. Thing is, the other movements I have been involved in at least attempted to put some welfare measures and legal protections in place for people.
> 
> ...


i've supported people up at magistrates and crown courts before, for poll tax and anti-fascist stuff. and tbh it's a core activity of a protest movement, it's not some optional extra. i've always been of the view that if you encourage people to take part in an activity then you assume some responsibility for what happens to them as a result of that: and there's really no excuse for xr leaving people in the shit.


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 28, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> What was the situation with the student protests and Occupy? I'm not as young as I was but I'm younger than a lot on these boards. I've never known any sort of group activism that isn't me and people like me being exploited as much as possible and then left to my own devices to clear up the mess.



I don't know mate. That was a little bit after the time I was involved. I don't know anything about the occupy movement on that level. 

When I was involved it was mostly against the iraq and afghanistan wars. While there was an attempt to brand what was going on at the time under various banners it was more just groups of individuals from my experience. There was more organisation of those groups on a regional and national level that helped people with various kinds of support and also helped organise camps and logistics and speakers and that. It was loose and there was no higher directive as such but there was a level of organisation that allowed us all to support each other.

Im sure there will be people on here that can tell you more about occupy though mate.


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i've supported people up at magistrates and crown courts before, for poll tax and anti-fascist stuff. and tbh it's a core activity of a protest movement, it's not some optional extra. i've always been of the view that if you encourage people to take part in an activity then you assume some responsibility for what happens to them as a result of that: and there's really no excuse for xr leaving people in the shit.



With you 100 percent on this.


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 29, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> What was the situation with the student protests and Occupy? I'm not as young as I was but I'm younger than a lot on these boards. I've never known any sort of group activism that isn't me and people like me being exploited as much as possible and then left to my own devices to clear up the mess.


For the student protests there was definitely a pretty solidly organised campaign, the whole Defend the Right to Protest thing, and I think Green & Black Cross came out of it as well. Also in the brief window in between and fairly related there was UK Uncut stuff, which definitely led to a few local defence campaigns, and the whole Fortnum & Mason thing. Not entirely sure about Occupy, would guess it'd depend where you were, but I think for pretty much all of the 2010s people facing cases from most movements would be able to get support from GBC and Legal Defence Monitoring Group, until they packed it in, but then ACAB came along pretty shortly after. Anyway, the public statement about GBC not feeling able to provide support to XR is pretty unique I think.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Swampy providing expert advice down the shit hole reportedly.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 29, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> For the student protests there was definitely a pretty solidly organised campaign, the whole Defend the Right to Protest thing, and I think Green & Black Cross came out of it as well. Also in the brief window in between and fairly related there was UK Uncut stuff, which definitely led to a few local defence campaigns, and the whole Fortnum & Mason thing. Not entirely sure about Occupy, would guess it'd depend where you were, but I think for pretty much all of the 2010s people facing cases from most movements would be able to get support from GBC and Legal Defence Monitoring Group, until they packed it in, but then ACAB came along pretty shortly after. Anyway, the public statement about GBC not feeling able to provide support to XR is pretty unique I think.


Thanks for that, I think some of that's around the time I first wondered onto the scene. I remember Green & Black Cross' online presence and UK Uncut. I'm glad to hear that because it means there's a lot of young-ish people who have experienced good solid solidarity and support, which means the situation as it is now can be just a blip if we keep up doing the sort of stuff a lot of us are doing anyway.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

Well I have fairly good info on what has been going on and according to one account of someone who was tunnelling (but is out now) its a accident waiting to happen. 

Much of the tunnel is shorn up with pallet wood. It's been raining all night in London....


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

The area is filled with access tunnels, underground lines, utility tunnels,  water mains, gas mains. 

The whole plan and strategy is dunderheaded.


----------



## muscovyduck (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well I have fairly good info on what has been going on and according to one account of someone who was tunnelling (but is out now) its a accident waiting to happen.
> 
> Much of the tunnel is shorn up with pallet wood. It's been raining all night in London....


More on this here


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well I have fairly good info on what has been going on and according to one account of someone who was tunnelling (but is out now) its a accident waiting to happen.
> 
> Much of the tunnel is shorn up with pallet wood. It's been raining all night in London....



Good grief. Really hope they are all going to be alright.


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 30, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> More on this here



They've been building those tunnels for 7 fckin months and noones thought oh hang on is this actually a good idea?!? Wtaf?

Pallette wood ffs. And for 7 fckin months these numptys have been down there digging going oh yeah it's sound this. They've not thought to health and safety it or ask someone qualified? 

It's criminal negligence that. And this is where that daft arrogance they've got gets really dangerous. Oh my days.  I just hope everyone is alright.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> They've been building those tunnels for 7 fckin months and noones thought oh hang on is this actually a good idea?!? Wtaf?
> 
> Pallette wood ffs. And for 7 fckin months these numptys have been down there digging going oh yeah it's sound this. They've not thought to health and safety it or ask someone qualified?
> 
> It's criminal negligence that. And this is where that daft arrogance they've got gets really dangerous. Oh my days.  I just hope everyone is alright.


yeh I hope this ends ok


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 30, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> They've been building those tunnels for 7 fckin months and noones thought oh hang on is this actually a good idea?!? Wtaf?
> 
> Pallette wood ffs. And for 7 fckin months these numptys have been down there digging going oh yeah it's sound this. They've not thought to health and safety it or ask someone qualified?
> 
> It's criminal negligence that. And this is where that daft arrogance they've got gets really dangerous. Oh my days.  I just hope everyone is alright.




It's got to be risky.  That's how it works . It means that eviction teams have to shore up as they go, dragging out the whole process.


----------



## LDC (Jan 30, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> They've been building those tunnels for 7 fckin months and noones thought oh hang on is this actually a good idea?!? Wtaf?
> 
> Pallette wood ffs. And for 7 fckin months these numptys have been down there digging going oh yeah it's sound this. They've not thought to health and safety it or ask someone qualified?
> 
> It's criminal negligence that. And this is where that daft arrogance they've got gets really dangerous. Oh my days.  I just hope everyone is alright.



Oh come on, that's a bit over dramatic. Lots of political stuff is risky, and sometimes a bit stupid too, doesn't mean it should never be tried. It's not what I'd do, but they are adults with capacity to make these kind of choices.


----------



## Grace Johnson (Jan 30, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> It's got to be risky.  That's how it works . It means that eviction teams have to shore up as they go, dragging out the whole process.






LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oh come on, that's a bit over dramatic. Lots of political stuff is risky, and sometimes a bit stupid too, doesn't mean it should never be tried. It's not what I'd do, but they are adults with capacity to make these kind of choices.



I dont think it is really. I mean I get that there's always going to be risk involved. But they do have a responsibility. They can make it inconvenient for the bailiffs or whoever comes to chuck them out while still making it safe. There's a balance. But building with pallette wood, Underground, In London in January? Above ground in summer you'd have a hard job building something with any structural integrity. They really need to do better here.


----------



## Red Sky (Jan 30, 2021)

Grace Johnson said:


> I dont think it is really. I mean I get that there's always going to be risk involved. But they do have a responsibility. They can make it inconvenient for the bailiffs or whoever comes to chuck them out while still making it safe. There's a balance. But building with pallette wood, Underground, In London in January? Above ground in summer you'd have a hard job building something with any structural integrity. They really need to do better here.


Responsibility to who? Themselves?

As for building, the photos I've seen from inside look like it's been done with 4x2 and shuttering ply.


----------



## Red Sky (Feb 1, 2021)

XR activists now increasingly branching out from straight ecological struggles


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 7, 2021)

Crackdowns a coming.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 8, 2021)

If you were wondering who Lord Walney was, it's John Woodcock. Remember him?









						Peer is asked to investigate the activities of extreme right and left
					

Lord Walney says far right is much bigger threat than far left but latter had ‘overstepped the mark’ at times




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## JTG (Feb 8, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If you were wondering who Lord Walney was, it's John Woodcock. Remember him?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bloke who left the Labour Party in order to avoid a sex pesting investigation? Gotcha


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2021)

JTG said:


> Bloke who left the Labour Party in order to avoid a sex pesting investigation? Gotcha


Former chair of labour friends of israel


----------



## teqniq (Feb 8, 2021)

Was just looking for somewhere appropriate to post this news but you all got here before me lol. Woodcock appears to be a total establishment stooge and one-time alleged sex-pest. No redeeming features at all and I also think that his 'report' will focus more on the 'hard left' (is that even a thing anymore?) than the far-right.


----------



## nogojones (Feb 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Former chair of labour friends of israel


Supporter of the Saudi invasion of Yemen. Will surely bring balance to the investigation


----------



## JTG (Feb 8, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Was just looking for somewhere appropriate to post this news but you all got here before me lol. Woodcock appears to be a total establishment stooge and one-time alleged sex-pest. No redeeming features at all and I also think that his 'report' will focus more on the 'hard left' (is that even a thing anymore?) than the far-right.


Rewarded alongside Ian Austin for services rendered 2015-19. Absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever


----------



## teqniq (Mar 6, 2021)

Apparently magistrates are repeatedly saying 'there's no place for science in the courtroom'.  - this in response to the science backing up climate change. What?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 6, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Apparently magistrates are repeatedly saying 'there's no place for science in the courtroom'.  - this in response to the science backing up climate change. What?



Well clearly science backing up climate change has nowt to do with the public order offences the magistrates are hearing, so they would be correct in saying that.

Surely it's the same as magistrates saying the Magna Carta has no place in the courtroom when dealing with 'Freemen of the Land' loons?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 6, 2021)

There is a defence of necessity, which she refers to.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 6, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There is a defence of necessity, which she refers to.



And, clearly doesn't apply here.



> _Firstly, English law does, in extreme circumstances, recognise a defence of necessity. Most commonly this defence arises as duress, that is, pressure on the accuseds will from the wrongful threats or violence of another. Equally however it can arise from other objective dangers threatening the accused or others. Arising thus it is conveniently called duress of circumstances.
> 
> Second, the defence is available only if, from an objective standpoint, the accused can be said to be acting reasonably and proportionately in order to avoid a threat of death or serious injury.
> 
> Third, assuming the defence to be open to the accused on his account of the facts, the issue should be left to the jury, who should be directed to determine these two questions: first, was the accused, or may he have been, impelled to act as he did because as a result of what he reasonably believed to be the situation he had good cause to fear that otherwise death or serious physical injury would result second, if so, would a sober person of reasonable firmness, sharing the characteristics of the accused, have responded to that situation by acting as the accused acted? If the answer to both those questions was then the defence of necessity would have been established."_







__





						Defences - Duress and Necessity | The Crown Prosecution Service
					






					www.cps.gov.uk


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 6, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, clearly doesn't apply here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has been used successfully - I believe it was used in this case though it's not explicitly stated in the BBC piece. That's what they are aiming at I think.

'Greater good' pair cleared of BAE criminal damage 'Greater good' pair cleared of BAE criminal damage


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 6, 2021)

Yeah, and has been used specifically wrt climate change after Kingsnorth 2008: Not guilty: the Greenpeace activists who used climate change as a legal defence


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 29, 2021)

Blimey HS2 security injured in attack by group of 30 near the A413 - with traffic 'narrowly' missing people in the road


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 29, 2021)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Blimey HS2 security injured in attack by group of 30 near the A413 - with traffic 'narrowly' missing people in the road


where's the connection with xr?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 29, 2021)

No idea.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 23, 2021)

Hail the mighty jury in this case!









						Extinction Rebellion: Jury acquits protesters despite judge's direction
					

Six activists are acquitted of causing criminal damage despite a judge saying they had "no defence".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Apr 23, 2021)

Yeah, good news that. I like the fella on the right who looks proper gutted.
Also, posted elsewhere, but respect to XR Manchester for this:


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 23, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Hail the mighty jury in this case!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A nice perverse verdict warms the cockles so it does


----------



## mauvais (Apr 23, 2021)

Fair play to the Manchester ones.

Meanwhile


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2021)

They took chisels to HSBC windows. I'm not sure what the problem is here.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 23, 2021)

It's just the most fucking excruciatingly middle class thing I've ever seen, _and _I have mirrors in my house.

No one with any fear of losing anything actually behaves like this.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2021)

I don't care whether they have any fear of losing anything. (They patently _could_ lose a whole lot, anyone can be arrested, but that or whether they appreciate it is not the point.) How does that matter in any way? What should they have done instead and why, or who should have replaced them if that was somehow so bad?

N.B. it's a video from the Sun btw

Also if that's the most middle class thing you've ever seen you clearly never saw any Remain rallies.


----------



## Shechemite (Apr 23, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Fair play to the Manchester ones.
> 
> Meanwhile




they actually sang kumbaya


----------



## tim (Apr 23, 2021)

mauvais said:


> It's just the most fucking excruciatingly middle class thing I've ever seen, _and _I have mirrors in my house.
> 
> No one with any fear of losing anything actually behaves like this.



One of them is a Mayoral candidate and she is guaranteed to lose.


----------



## teqniq (May 9, 2021)

Good article by Peter Hain here where he quite reasonably argues that the continued prosecution of XR activists is a waste of resources and is completely out of step with public opinion:









						Putting Extinction Rebellion activists on trial isn’t in the public interest, so let’s stop | Peter Hain
					

After the recent acquittal of climate activists by a jury, it’s clear public sentiment is on their side, says former Labour cabinet minister Peter Hain




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ddraig (May 9, 2021)

That's bollocks tho, public aren't on the side of xr


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

ddraig said:


> That's bollocks tho, public aren't on the side of xr


Peter Hain didn't have a scientific education so can be forgiven for thinking that you can extrapolate from 12 people in a court to a nation of many millions


----------



## teqniq (May 9, 2021)

ddraig said:


> That's bollocks tho, public aren't on the side of xr


Hmm not necessarily. did you actually read it? In it he argues that because the defendants dispensed with their legal teams and conducted their own defence, they were able to convince the jury that their actions were wholly reasonable in light of Shell's continuing activities that are contributing to climate change. Sure, there are plenty of people that would disagree with this usually for purely selfish reasons but given the opportunity to explain themselves in a court they were able to win the jury over.


----------



## ddraig (May 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Hmm not necessarily. did you actually read it? In it he argues that because the defendants dispensed with their legal teams and conducted their own defence, they were able to convince the jury that their actions were wholly reasonable in light of Shell's continuing activities that are contributing to climate change. Sure, there are plenty of people that would disagree with this usually for purely selfish reasons but given the opportunity to explain themselves in a court they were able to win the jury over.


No I didn't read it
Do you think the public are on the side of xr? I dont


----------



## teqniq (May 9, 2021)

I think it demonstrates that people are open to persuasion when presented with a well argued case. How else to explain the result?


----------



## ddraig (May 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> I think it demonstrates that people are open to persuasion when presented with a well argued case. How else to explain the result?


A jury acquitting doesn't mean the "public" all agree does it? Just that jury on that day


----------



## teqniq (May 9, 2021)

That is true but it is an optimistic sign imo nevertheless.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> That is true but it is an optimistic sign imo nevertheless.


Yes, 12 down about 65,000,000 to go


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 9, 2021)

Does "the public" disagree with XR?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 9, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Does "the public" disagree with XR?


I don't think you can adduce agreement of otherwise from the actions of 12 people on a jury


----------



## ddraig (May 9, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Does "the public" disagree with XR?


Reckon so, "the public" generally don't like environmental types, or types that do direct action, or preachy types, or anyone who inconveniences them and their choices


----------



## BigMoaner (May 9, 2021)

Most people I speak to, no matter where they sit on the political spectrum, seem to be far more aware of environmental issues than they ever were. But as has been said, actually sacrificing, demanding change, etc is another matter entirely.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2021)

Hmmmm, well now.... nothing to see here, move along:









						Police Chiefs’ Phone Records Deleted After Contact With Priti Patel Over Extinction Rebellion Murdoch Blockade – Byline Times
					

A phone update and an ‘IT glitch’ caused the records to be deleted, a court heard today




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2021)

queenlateesh said:


> All you cracker bitches need to go extinct. We’ll enslave all of you and your women will be forced to satisfy big Black cocks until they die.



Your piss poor racist parodies are boring.

Get help, or stay drowning in your lonely, unfulfilled crap life.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 20, 2021)

I thought there may be Roger The Dodger news and instead we have this.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 20, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Do you think the public are on the side of xr? I dont



Everyone knows that climate change is real, everyone knows that we need to change our behaviours in order to counter it, XR’s message is that government must mandate that change. This appeals in many ways; you may drive an SUV and fly once a month, use gas for cooking and heating and so on, but are absolved of responsibility as any individual action is a homeopathic drop in the ocean, it needs a global response. And they are right. But it won’t happen. So yeah, even rabid right wingers I speak to know XR are right and that something needs to happen, they, like me know nothing will. We’re fucked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Everyone knows that climate change is real, everyone knows that we need to change our behaviours in order to counter it, XR’s message is that government must mandate that change. This appeals in many ways; you may drive an SUV and fly once a month, use gas for cooking and heating and so on, but are absolved of responsibility as any individual action is a homeopathic drop in the ocean, it needs a global response. And they are right. But it won’t happen. So yeah, even rabid right wingers I speak to know XR are right and that something needs to happen, they, like me know nothing will. We’re fucked.


Tbh it doesn't matter if everyone changed to being super good tomorrow, it's too late. The permafrost is melting, and with the warming arctic the methane hydrates under the seas there will bubble up much faster than they're doing atm. Maybe - just maybe - we'll get lucky and it'll all end up ok. Like one chance in ten thousand. But yeh barring that slim chance we're fucked and as far as I'm concerned the only saving grace is I'll be dead before it all goes to shit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2021)

Dystopiary if I fall down and fuck my ankle that's  but here we're talking about vast numbers of people greatly suffering, many millions of people dying horrible deaths, the extinction of so many animals we love, a planet that will take many thousands of years to recover from just 200-250 years of industrial humans. I think that rates a bit more than , maybe


----------



## Dystopiary (Jun 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Dystopiary if I fall down and fuck my ankle that's  but here we're talking about vast numbers of people greatly suffering, many millions of people dying horrible deaths, the extinction of so many animals we love, a planet that will take many thousands of years to recover from just 200-250 years of industrial humans. I think that rates a bit more than , maybe


Believe me, I find it devastating.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh it doesn't matter if everyone changed to being super good tomorrow, it's too late. The permafrost is melting, and with the warming arctic the methane hydrates under the seas there will bubble up much faster than they're doing atm. Maybe - just maybe - we'll get lucky and it'll all end up ok. Like one chance in ten thousand. But yeh barring that slim chance we're fucked and as far as I'm concerned the only saving grace is I'll be dead before it all goes to shit




Baby Bahn 1 is choosing university courses to start September 2022, she's interested in environmental science and computer science, she's pretty much settled on the later as the former is just too depressing, every model they do in her A level group comes back with the same result: fucked.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Everyone knows that climate change is real, everyone knows that we need to change our behaviours in order to counter it, XR’s message is that government must mandate that change. This appeals in many ways; you may drive an SUV and fly once a month, use gas for cooking and heating and so on, but are absolved of responsibility as any individual action is a homeopathic drop in the ocean, it needs a global response. And they are right. But it won’t happen. So yeah, even rabid right wingers I speak to know XR are right and that something needs to happen, they, like me know nothing will. We’re fucked.





Pickman's model said:


> Tbh it doesn't matter if everyone changed to being super good tomorrow, it's too late. The permafrost is melting, and with the warming arctic the methane hydrates under the seas there will bubble up much faster than they're doing atm. Maybe - just maybe - we'll get lucky and it'll all end up ok. Like one chance in ten thousand. But yeh barring that slim chance we're fucked and as far as I'm concerned the only saving grace is I'll be dead before it all goes to shit



I see that my predictions were right about how the millenarian focus on apocalyptic predictions by climate doomsters leads to apathy and inaction. Future generations are going to curse the likes of Greta Thunberg and XR.

Never mind that we can still decarbonise energy production and produce significant reductions in carbon emissions. Never mind that we already have the technology to do that in the form of nuclear fission and renewables. Nah, much better to instead wank on about the end of the world. The fossil fuel companies should be giving the climate doomsters a stipend for all the useful work they've done in demoralising people. Well done lads.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2021)

NoXion said:


> I see that my predictions were right about how the millenarian focus on apocalyptic predictions by climate doomsters leads to apathy and inaction. Future generations are going to curse the likes of Greta Thunberg and XR.
> 
> Never mind that we can still decarbonise energy production and produce significant reductions in carbon emissions. Never mind that we already have the technology to do that in the form of nuclear fission and renewables. Nah, much better to instead wank on about the end of the world. The fossil fuel companies should be giving the climate doomsters a stipend for all the useful work they've done in demoralising people. Well done lads.


I say nothing against trying to sort things out. Without attempting to change things the one chance in ten thousand vanishes. I think tho that we've missed the bus and decarbonising energy production and producing significant reductions in emissions is no longer enough. When co2 reaches a certain level it can affect cognitive ability and damage health Indoor carbon dioxide levels could be a health hazard, scientists warn and the rate co2 is rising that's not really all that far away

So the question isn't really just about reducing emissions or changing energy production but grabbing carbon out of the atmosphere and locking it away in sufficient quantities to mitigate emissions from the Arctic and from decomposing permafrost. What's your proposal for that?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 21, 2021)

XR explicitly _don't_ say "we're completely fucked", anyway. If anything they underplay things.


----------



## platinumsage (Jun 21, 2021)

Something that might help is telling people that Churchill was a massive racist.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 28, 2021)

Don’t want to get arrested before a demo? Then don’t publicise a plan to break the law!
					

The raid on Animal/Extinction Rebellion’s warehouse shows why you shouldn’t publicly broadcast plans to break the law. On multiple occasions over the last few years, I have taken it upo…




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Don’t want to get arrested before a demo? Then don’t publicise a plan to break the law!
> 
> 
> The raid on Animal/Extinction Rebellion’s warehouse shows why you shouldn’t publicly broadcast plans to break the law. On multiple occasions over the last few years, I have taken it upo…
> ...



The only way to be safe is to do nothing.  Solid message from the anarchists there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> The only way to be safe is to do nothing.  Solid message from the anarchists there.


there is no safe way. but it is safer not to broadcast your plans before they're carried out.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> The only way to be safe is to do nothing.  Solid message from the anarchists there.


That's not the message tho is it, it's just advising against the naive aproach and tactics of XR


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> The only way to be safe is to do nothing.  Solid message from the anarchists there.


Squinting with my head on its side I didn’t manage to get that message

he’s saying don’t do the coppers int gathering for them i.e don’t plaster it on Facebook


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 28, 2021)

If only there was some kind of third way, some kind of option in between "doing nothing" and "publicly announcing your intention to break the law".


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 28, 2021)

If only not publicising ones plans meant one did not get raided by the police.


----------



## andysays (Jun 28, 2021)

Maybe they're just Judas Priest fans


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ddraig said:


> That's not the message tho is it, it's just advising against the naive aproach and tactics of XR



So how well do the anarchists do in not getting convergence spaces raided ahead of mobilisations ?


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe they're just Judas Priest fans



Liked for the video in all its low budget glory.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> Squinting with my head on its side I didn’t manage to get that message
> 
> he’s saying don’t do the coppers int gathering for them i.e don’t plaster it on Facebook


What was plastered on Facebook?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> So how well do the anarchists do in not getting convergence spaces raided ahead of mobilisations ?


there have been times when the convergence spaces have been raided, eg the bacon (or was it button?) factory round loughborough junction back in the very early 2000s. but it's probably from precisely these experiences that people like the article's author have come to their conclusions.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there have been times when the convergence spaces have been raided, eg the bacon (or was it button?) factory round loughborough junction back in the very early 2000s. but it's probably from precisely these experiences that people like the article's author have come to their conclusions.


Before G20, before Dsei etc etc 

The fact is that the only way to be sure of not getting police interference in your mobilising is to liaise with them,  promise to obey the law and isolate troublemakers.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Before G20, before Dsei etc etc
> 
> The fact is that the only way to be sure of not getting police interference in your mobilising is to liaise with them,  promise to obey the law and isolate troublemakers.


Really?


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Before G20, before Dsei etc etc
> 
> The fact is that the only way to be sure of not getting police interference in your mobilising is to liaise with them,  promise to obey the law and isolate troublemakers.


I bet you floss and mouthwash every night


----------



## LDC (Jun 28, 2021)

I do think there is some important utility of not making political stuff a 'secret' though and making efforts towards openness, it often enables wider participation for example.

The issue is partly isn't just whether stuff is public or not (and let's be honest, nearly all political activity is open or public in some way, especially to those watching it with interest like the cops) so much as in whether you then are popular enough, and so have the numbers and support for the cops stopping it before to not be possible, or a least enough to make it very difficult for them.

I think the issue people have is probably more XR and the broader way they do things and politics they have, as if this was some workers factory occupation I'm not sure many would be so vocal in their criticism, so I think some of the criticism comes from a slightly dishonest position, even if that's unintentionally.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> I bet you floss and mouthwash every night


What does that even mean?


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Really?


Yeah, really.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Yeah, really.


black and white as this is it?
No other groups or actions been successful without liaising with police?



> The fact is that the only way to be sure of not getting police interference in your mobilising is to liaise with them, promise to obey the law and isolate troublemakers.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ddraig said:


> black and whit as this is it?
> No other groups or actions been successful without liaising with police?



I think you need to go back and re read the post.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 28, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> If only there was some kind of third way, some kind of option in between "doing nothing" and "publicly announcing your intention to break the law".


Bless you x


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> I think you need to go back and re read the post.


is this not what you posted?  


> The fact is that the only way to be sure of not getting police interference in your mobilising is to liaise with them, promise to obey the law and isolate troublemakers.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ddraig said:


> is this not what you posted?



Meaning that any movement that pushes for anything beyond state sanctioned protest is liable to be interfered with by the police and that having a pop at XR for getting busted is out of order.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Meaning that any movement that pushes for anything beyond state sanctioned protest is liable to be interfered with by the police and that having a pop at XR for getting busted is out of order.


Yes, that's what the police do
There have been protests pulled off without police liaison or interference tho I'm sure you'll concede

It's not having a pop about them getting busted, it's having a pop at them publicising it widely before it even had a chance, and they know they're being watched closely (leading to them getting busted)


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 28, 2021)

I've been thinking about this a bit, and I think the semi-serious conclusion I've reached is: never go to London for anything ever. Don't go to London to XR stuff, don't go to London for non-XR stuff, problem sorted.


LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I do think there is some important utility of not making political stuff a 'secret' though and making efforts towards openness, it often enables wider participation for example.
> 
> The issue is partly isn't just whether stuff is public or not (and let's be honest, nearly all political activity is open or public in some way, especially to those watching it with interest like the cops) so much as in whether you then are popular enough, and so have the numbers and support for the cops stopping it before to not be possible, or a least enough to make it very difficult for them.
> 
> I think the issue people have is probably more XR and the broader way they do things and politics they have, as if this was some workers factory occupation I'm not sure many would be so vocal in their criticism, so I think some of the criticism comes from a slightly dishonest position, even if that's unintentionally.


Tbh, if it was a workers factory occupation I'd expect them to occupy it first and then publicise it afterwards. If a group of workers publicly announced "at this time on this date we're going to occupy our factory", and then turned up to find coppers everywhere, I'd be sympathetic to them but I'd still think they were doing things in a bit of a silly way.

My less facetious point is: I think one really good thing that's come out of the pandemic is that it's forced the last year of BLM and Kill the Bill stuff to focus much more on local actions instead of Big Days Out in London. Which doesn't solve all the possible problems, but does definitely reduce the problem of the police raiding the place you set up for everyone coming from outside of London to have a kip the night before.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Yes, that's what the police do
> There have been protests pulled off without police liaison or interference tho I'm sure you'll concede
> 
> It's not having a pop about them getting busted, it's having a pop at them publicising it widely before it even had a chance, and they know they're being watched closely (leading to them getting busted)



Which successful mass mobilisations are you thinking of?


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 28, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I do think there is some important utility of not making political stuff a 'secret' though and making efforts towards openness, it often enables wider participation for example.
> 
> The issue is partly isn't just whether stuff is public or not (and let's be honest, nearly all political activity is open or public in some way, especially to those watching it with interest like the cops) so much as in whether you then are popular enough, and so have the numbers and support for the cops stopping it before to not be possible, or a least enough to make it very difficult for them.
> 
> I think the issue people have is probably more XR and the broader way they do things and politics they have, as if this was some workers factory occupation I'm not sure many would be so vocal in their criticism, so I think some of the criticism comes from a slightly dishonest position, even if that's unintentionally.



I agree with some of what you say here but I do think anything which leaves a group open to being raided by the police is inherently not suitable for wider participation - though it may still be worth doing.

I mean, anything open to people who can't risk arrest whether that's for health reasons, immigration reasons, having care responsibility reasons, or whatever, needs to work really hard to protect those people as a priority.

I don't think this action was like that, or at least I hope it wasn't. I really hope XR are getting better at informing, protecting, and supporting people who join their actions, because in the recent past they have been atrocious on those fronts.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Which successful mass mobilisations are you thinking of?


Are you a swappie?


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Are you a swappie?


No.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I agree with some of what you say here but I do think anything which leaves a group open to being raided by the police is inherently not suitable for wider participation - though it may still be worth doing.
> 
> I mean, anything open to people who can't risk arrest whether that's for health reasons, immigration reasons, having care responsibility reasons, or whatever, needs to work really hard to protect those people as a priority.
> 
> I don't think this action was like that, or at least I hope it wasn't. I really hope XR are getting better at informing, protecting, and supporting people who join their actions, because in the recent past they have been atrocious on those fronts.



That's all civil disobedience and direct action off the table then.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Are you a swappie?


So which were you thinking of?


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> That's all civil disobedience and direct action off the table then.



Not at all. Where did I suggest any such thing?


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Not at all. Where did I suggest any such thing?



Because they leave you open to being raided by the police


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Because they leave you open to being raided by the police



So you make sure everyone involved understands the risks and gives informed consent to being involved. It's not hard.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> So you make sure everyone involved understands the risks and gives informed consent to being involved. It's not hard.


If there's one thing XR are clear about it's the risk of getting nicked!


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> If there's one thing XR are clear about it's the risk of getting nicked!



Not what I've witnessed, at all. But maybe they're better at that nowadays. My info and experiences all pre-date covid.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 28, 2021)

Does anyone know how the police knew which locations to raid? Like, were they ones that had been publicly or semi-publicly announced?


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 28, 2021)

XR also use super secure whatsapp chats to coordinate actions. It's pretty easy (or at least it was a couple of years ago) to get invited with little more than a hello on facebook.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 28, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Does anyone know how the police knew which locations to raid? Like, were they ones that had been publicly or semi-publicly announced?


They probably told them.


----------



## cyberpink (Jun 29, 2021)

I love XR, for what they did to the Daily Mail at the weekend. Little by little, these things push us forward.


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

Extinction Rebellion just told me I could write for them instead of going on demos and shouting and going wild like I used to do on Brian Haw peace demos.

@devereuxmatthew


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Does anyone know how the police knew which locations to raid? Like, were they ones that had been publicly or semi-publicly announced?


They read the internet


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jun 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> I love XR, for what they did to the Daily Mail at the weekend. Little by little, these things push us forward.



I had missed that, but, yeah, dumping manure outside the Daily Mail's building is amusing, shame they got stopped from doing the same outside the Telegraph's building.





> Environmental protest group Extinction Rebellion said it had made a “surprise visit” to Northcliffe House, the head office of the newspaper’s owners Daily Mail and General Trust, and claimed to have dumped seven tonnes of horse manure outside the main entrance.
> 
> Five people were arrested for an offence under Section 148 of the Highways Act, with four of the five also arrested on suspicion of causing criminal damage, police said.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion said members had also visited the building housing the Daily Telegraph newspaper but were stopped before they could dump more manure.











						Arrests at Extinction Rebellion 'free press' protest with Mail manure dump
					

Some 23 people were arrested after an Extinction Rebellion “free the press” protest in London saw manure dumped outside the offices of the Daily Mail.




					www.pressgazette.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Jun 29, 2021)

I am bored with stupid stunts.


----------



## andysays (Jun 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am bored with stupid stunts.


Not really fair, mate. I agree he does post a lot of nonsense, but there's the occasional worthwhile comment in there too.

Oh wait, you said "stupid stunts", I thought you said...

...well, nevermind...


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am bored with stupid stunts.


Why don't you....


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 29, 2021)

?


----------



## Argonia (Jun 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They read the internet


As Edward Snowden told us, they have a particular fascination for dick pics


----------



## kenny g (Jun 29, 2021)

One of the oldest challenges. If you are open then you will have the law stretched to the fullest extent in order to stop your activities. If you are closed then you quickly become engaged in elitist actions that lose public support. The onion + cell model can work in terms of keeping relevance and evading detection but even that puts immense pressures on those involved. Lone wolf actions quickly lead to parody. There is much to learn from HK resistance although they ultimately appear to have been unsuccessful.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 30, 2021)

kenny g said:


> One of the oldest challenges. If you are open then you will have the law stretched to the fullest extent in order to stop your activities. If you are closed then you quickly become engaged in elitist actions that lose public support. The onion + cell model can work in terms of keeping relevance and evading detection but even that puts immense pressures on those involved. Lone wolf actions quickly lead to parody. There is much to learn from HK resistance although they ultimately appear to have been unsuccessful.


Closed didn’t work for RTS as they let an undercover cop into the controlling group.


----------



## BillRiver (Jun 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Closed didn’t work for RTS as they let an undercover cop into the controlling group.



There was more than one. But I wouldn't say we "let" them in, more that we failed to keep them out.

And being open doesn't mean they won't still get in either.


----------



## LDC (Jun 30, 2021)

And also despite them being centrally involved they were unable to stop most large events going ahead as they had mass participation and popular support.

Groups using very high security, and where the risk of informers and undercovers being caught, tortured, and then executed still get infiltrated would suggest it's quite difficult to 'keep them out' of anywhere.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Closed didn’t work for RTS as they let an undercover cop into





BillRiver said:


> There was more than one. But I wouldn't say we "let" them in, more that we failed to keep them out.
> 
> And being open doesn't mean they won't still get in either.



I think the idea is that it won't matter if they get in. 

Came across a similar approach amongst Israeli anarchists.  Taking into account the fact that they were 100% guaranteed to be infiltrated they organized openly an publically.


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

I think XR, the school student climate walkout stuff, BLM and Kill the Bill would be a decent set of recent case studies to compare with this stuff - don't think it'd be fair to describe any of them as completely law-abiding and pacified, but I think most of them have largely managed to avoid XR's pre-emptive arrests problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Closed didn’t work for RTS as they let an undercover cop into the controlling group.


and at least some of the planning meetings for j18 were open anyway


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I think XR, the school student climate walkout stuff, BLM and Kill the Bill would be a decent set of recent case studies to compare with this stuff - don't think it'd be fair to describe any of them as completely law-abiding and pacified, but I think most of them have largely managed to avoid XR's pre-emptive arrests problem.


Depends what you mean.  The other three have primarily been about A toB marches.  Where it's kicked off there's been arrests.  XR is about civil disobedience and direct action. It's a more radical project so it attracts more reaction from the state.


----------



## LDC (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I think XR, the school student climate walkout stuff, BLM and Kill the Bill would be a decent set of recent case studies to compare with this stuff - don't think it'd be fair to describe any of them as completely law-abiding and pacified, but I think most of them have largely managed to avoid XR's pre-emptive arrests problem.



Just off the top of my head though, haven't the BLM and Kill the Bill stuff mostly have been demos (that then sometimes mutated into other stuff) rather than the civil disobedience and direct action that XR has more been about? I do think the planned disruption of infrastructure is something that the State is much more bothered about and will often try and stop before it happens. I think RTS in '90s London and XR is a better talking point.


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Just off the top of my head though, haven't the BLM and Kill the Bill stuff mostly have been demos (that then sometimes mutated into other stuff) rather than the civil disobedience and direct action that XR has more been about? I do think the planned disruption of infrastructure is something that the State is much more bothered about and will often try and stop before it happens. I think RTS in '90s London and XR is a better talking point.


Snap


----------



## hitmouse (Jun 30, 2021)

Oh, Palestine Action v Elbit et al, that's another useful point of comparison. Point taken above, but also how many cop vans have XR burnt?


----------



## Red Sky (Jun 30, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Oh, Palestine Action v Elbit et al, that's another useful point of comparison. Point taken above, but also how many cop vans have XR burnt?


None.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2021)

From 25ht June: A truly ridiculous number of plod to raid a studio with a sculpture on the roof  that was either the same or similar to the one that XR used to block the gates to Murdoch's printworks. Apparently they failed to take it down.

 (short thread)


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> From 25ht June: A truly ridiculous number of plod to raid a studio with a sculpture on the roof  that was either the same or similar to the one that XR used to block the gates to Murdoch's printworks. Apparently they failed to take it down.
> 
> (short thread)



And still Anthony Charles Lynton Blair hasn't been arrested by Plod and packed off to the Hague.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2021)

Yes, i know how it works thank you. Still, I fail to see what Blair has got to do with a thread on Extinction rebellion.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Yes, i know how it works thank you. Still, I fail to see what Blair has got to do with a thread on Extinction rebellion.


Come on. Plod are arresting democracy and climate emergency activists rather than war criminals. Not rocket science.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Come on. Plod are arresting democracy and climate emergency activists rather than war criminals. Not rocket science.


Whilst i am 100% with you on Blair being held accountable, you seem to have a need to shoehorn you particular hobby horses into other threads /derail.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Whilst i am 100% with you on Blair being held accountable, you seem to have a need to shoehorn you particular hobby horses into other threads /derail.


Glad you're 100% with me on Blair, that's heartening news.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Whilst i am 100% with you on Blair being held accountable, you seem to have a need to shoehorn you particular hobby horses into other threads /derail.


Talking of ER, I was quite pleased the other day to be invited to be an ER writer though I haven't penned a syllable for them yet. Glad the writers are on board.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2021)

Good luck with that. Hope they don't send the plod round for writing for them.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Good luck with that. Hope they don't send the plod round for writing for them.


Thanks mate. Luckily I have my door triple bolted so they will have to send round the riot boys to cuff me up like Assange


----------



## brogdale (Jul 10, 2021)

Just seen this; disturbing.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2021)

I already posted that upthread but no worries. It gets more disgusting:



Detailed story here:









						Antepavilion building "smashed up" and staff arrested in police raid
					

Police have raided the building that hosts the annual Antepavilion architecture commission, arrested a number of its staff and threatened to remove an installation on its roof.




					www.dezeen.com


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 10, 2021)

What a useless waste of resources.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2021)

They know exactly what they are doing. Environmental protestors have been the primary target for years, it's particularly kicking off now, and it will get worse and worse.

I criticise people for organising stuff on facebook because it's facebook and thus can/will get shut down at a moment's notice, as well as FB happily handing over any data from their social tracking systems to the cops. It's not so much to do with the public nature of it.


----------



## IC3D (Jul 10, 2021)

Kind of shows how ridiculous and paranoid anti vax twats are this. Shoud have Yakady sax in the background.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2021)

IC3D said:


> Kind of shows how ridiculous and paranoid anti vax twats are this. Shoud have Yakady sax in the background.


eh?


----------



## IC3D (Jul 10, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> eh?


IE they are not as much of a threat


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> eh?


Yakady sax the saxophonist who plays with Ruddy Yurts


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2021)

Much of the point here is that somewhere in the region of 40 officers including TSG descended on premises that had absolutely nothing to do with XR arrested 5 people including the owner all of whom were later released without charge. The fuckers have the time and the resources to do this but offer pale, limp excuses when it comes to investigating potential wrongdoing by the vermin. I have no time for them whatsoever.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 10, 2021)

IC3D said:


> IE they are not as much of a threat


oh, XR vs the ratlickers, I see

XR are far more of a threat to the state than reactionaries who the state tacitly supports anyway, though. The state isn't wrong to think that. It's not behaving irrationally by persecuting the former and ignoring the latter. _Evilly_, sure.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 10, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Much of the point here is that somewhere in the region of 40 officers including TSG descended on premises that had absolutely nothing to do with XR arrested 5 people including the owner all of whom were later released without charge. The fuckers have the time and the resources to do this but offer pale, limp excuses when it comes to investigating potential wrongdoing by the vermin. I have no time for them whatsoever.


Hope that's 5 people who are contacting their solicitors with a view to getting a fat wrongful arrest payout down the line. I was going to say that it could fund a lot of XR activities, but on re-reading they're nothing to with XR, so... could fund a lot of whatever non-XR-related things they're into, I suppose? Pay for a lot of metal poles, whatever.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Hope that's 5 people who are contacting their solicitors with a view to getting a fat wrongful arrest payout down the line. I was going to say that it could fund a lot of XR activities, but on re-reading they're nothing to with XR, so... could fund a lot of whatever non-XR-related things they're into, I suppose? Pay for a lot of metal poles, whatever.


Tbh if I got nicked on an xr thing they could whistle for any damages I got, I'd rather give money to an organisation with better politics and practice


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh if I got nicked on an xr thing they could whistle for any damages I got, I'd rather give money to an organisation with better politics and practice


Which one?


----------



## CNT36 (Jul 10, 2021)

BP.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

CNT36 said:


> BP.


Beyond Petroleum? Blood pressure?


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh if I got nicked on an xr thing they could whistle for any damages I got, I'd rather give money to an organisation with better politics and practice


I mean, that's fair enough really, but I would guess that maybe many of the people who are involved in doing XR stuff feel more positively about XR than you do?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, that's fair enough really, but I would guess that maybe many of the people who are involved in doing XR stuff feel more positively about XR than you do?


Not if they've seen as I have a day of xr court cases where no one from xr bothered to turn up to support the pensioners and others on trial


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Which one?


When I got compo from Fairford I gave 10% to ldmg, about £450


----------



## David Clapson (Jul 15, 2021)

This New York Times piece says that demos have achieved nothing. Opinion | It Seems Odd That We Would Just Let the World Burn

NYT paywall can be bypassed with this iamadamdev - Overview


----------



## teqniq (Jul 24, 2021)

Already posted on the Undercover policing enquiry thread but I thought worthwhile here too:









						Met police ‘tried to recruit ex-officer to spy on climate change activists’
					

Former detective says he was asked to inform on fellow Extinction Rebellion campaigners




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teqniq (Jul 26, 2021)

I know it's Chequers but still pretty OTT:


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 26, 2021)

teqniq said:


> I know it's Chequers but still pretty OTT:



In passing, this trend of coppers wearing Thin Blue Line patches, that's something new, right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> In passing, this trend of coppers wearing Thin Blue Line patches, that's something new, right?
> View attachment 280619


Don't think so, think they've been doing it for a while. Tho it should be thick short plank for most of them


----------



## ska invita (Aug 4, 2021)

This is good 









						Extinction Rebellion: Judge demands review of protester convictions
					

Prosecutors are asked if they stand by the convictions of protesters after a second successful appeal.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




... Suggests blocking the road might come to be fine during protests (post DSEI action)


----------



## ska invita (Aug 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This is good
> 
> 
> 
> ...


another one








						Extinction Rebellion: Third protester conviction quashed
					

It comes amid mounting questions for the CPS over cases brought against the environmental demonstrators.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## vanya (Aug 5, 2021)

If I was really cynical, I would suspect Extinction Rebellion of being an operation by the fossil-fueled establishment, to derail climate activism by presenting it as a binary between XR’s radical ideas, and doing nothing, and at some point decrying their predictions as overly alarmist, their demands as impossible, and presenting refocusing on adaptation as the lesser evil.


----------



## LDC (Aug 5, 2021)

vanya said:


> If I was really cynical, I would suspect Extinction Rebellion of being an operation by the fossil-fueled establishment, to derail climate activism by presenting it as a binary between XR’s radical ideas, and doing nothing, and at some point decrying their predictions as overly alarmist, their demands as impossible, and presenting refocusing on adaptation as the lesser evil.



You wouldn't be cynical, you'd be a conspiracy loon.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 5, 2021)

I have my doubts that they influence public behaviour. The few people who are making big changes would have done it without XR. And maybe the rest say to themselves "I can leave it to XR and the govt to sort out policy. In the meantime I'll have a Range Rover Sport.  If it was harmful it would have been banned by now. They're allowed to advertise it on the telly, so it must be OK." I reckon the only thing which has changed people's habits is ULEZ.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2021)

People's personal habits are irrelevant though. Perhaps why XR don't talk about "carbon footprints" at all, except sometimes to point out that the concept is greenwashing invented by BP.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 5, 2021)

Irrelevant?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2021)

Yes


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2021)

This isn't news surely? It's been standard for decades. You could be as brilliant at not using plastics or avoiding palm oil or never using the dishwasher as you like, but it means nothing in the context of an entire society where nobody has a choice but to use a system that is intrinsically climate destructive. Suggestions otherwise that it's basically the individual's fault are funded by multinational enemies. Why do you think XR (and everyone else) campaigns about systemic issues all the time?


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 5, 2021)

Because individuals don't take responsibility. But they could, and they should. It's not hard to halve your carbon footprint. But hardly anyone will do it without being forced by nanny state. Most people are useless fuckers.


----------



## urbanspaceman (Aug 5, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This isn't news surely? It's been standard for decades. You could be as brilliant at not using plastics or avoiding palm oil or never using the dishwasher as you like, but it means nothing in the context of an entire society where nobody has a choice but to use a system that is intrinsically climate destructive. Suggestions otherwise that it's basically the individual's fault are funded by multinational enemies. Why do you think XR (and everyone else) campaigns about systemic issues all the time?


_"...never using the dishwasher..."_

Actually, using a dishwasher is greener than hand washing.









						Dishwasher vs Hand Washing: Which is Greener? | OVO Energy
					

Ever wondered whether washing by hand is actually greener than using a dishwasher? Or if an energy-efficient appliance impacts the environment less? Read on to find out!




					www.ovoenergy.com


----------



## TopCat (Aug 5, 2021)

urbanspaceman said:


> _"...never using the dishwasher..."_
> 
> Actually, using a dishwasher is greener than hand washing.
> 
> ...


Fantastic avoidance of some great points. Classic urban.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 5, 2021)

What's wrong with licking everything clean? It works for me and the cat.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 5, 2021)

urbanspaceman said:


> _"...never using the dishwasher..."_
> 
> Actually, using a dishwasher is greener than hand washing.
> 
> ...


That article is a really good example of what I'm talking about. Trying to persuade people that it's down to their individual choices and it's their fault if the planet dies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> What's wrong with licking everything clean? It works for me and the cat.


How did you train your cat to rim you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That article is a really good example of what I'm talking about. Trying to persuade people that it's down to their individual choices and it's their fault if the planet dies.


To be fair it is down to some individuals' choices, like the choices of the cabinet to rush us headlong towards catastrophe


----------



## seeformiles (Aug 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Just seen this; disturbing.




Reminds me of this:


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 6, 2021)

vanya said:


> If I was really cynical, I would suspect Extinction Rebellion of being an operation by the fossil-fueled establishment, to derail climate activism by presenting it as a binary between XR’s radical ideas, and doing nothing, and at some point decrying their predictions as overly alarmist, their demands as impossible, and presenting refocusing on adaptation as the lesser evil.


 If you were really cynical and had spent the afternoon huffing paint stripper.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 7, 2021)

Result:


----------



## ddraig (Aug 7, 2021)

The right kind of protestor possibly
Be good if same treatment for KTB, BLM and other "less photogenic" protesters!


----------



## ska invita (Aug 7, 2021)

ddraig said:


> The right kind of protestor possibly
> Be good if same treatment for KTB, BLM and other "less photogenic" protesters!


....sounds like its to do with a recent precedent specifically regarding blocking the road


----------



## ska invita (Aug 7, 2021)

...though elequent explanations justifying breaking the law for the greater good have seen lots of people get off, particularly in front of juries.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ....sounds like its to do with a recent precedent specifically regarding blocking the road


Yes, all good
Still cynical here


----------



## ska invita (Aug 7, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Yes, all good
> Still cynical here


fair enough! 
this from the bbc:
"[judge] said that prosecutors seemed to be arguing that a protester could not lawfully lie down in the road in any circumstances - and they had not "grasped" the importance of a recent Supreme Court ruling.
In that judgement, the UK's highest court ruled that demonstrators who had blocked a road at a military arms show should not have been convicted of obstruction because their right to temporarily and peacefully protest should have been taken into account.
Judge Dennis said that given the importance of that ruling, prosecutors needed to clarify where they stood on the eight cases still to be heard this week and next."


----------



## Flavour (Aug 7, 2021)

good to hear but doubt it will convince those sections of the populations who may have reservations about deliberately getting themselves arrested to change their minds about getting involved in XR actions (of which, lately, there are none to speak of anyway)


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 7, 2021)

There are more actions coming soon. This is good news, not just for XR but for everyone who needs to challenge the neo-fascists. The ones with the majority and the lead in the polls and the feeble opposition.


----------



## l'Otters (Aug 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ...though elequent explanations justifying breaking the law for the greater good have seen lots of people get off, particularly in front of juries.


By "lots", how many do you mean? 

Also, are you differentiating between a judge agreeing that prevention of a greater crime was a legal defence, vs asking the jury to ignore the judge's ruling?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 8, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> By "lots", how many do you mean?
> 
> Also, are you differentiating between a judge agreeing that prevention of a greater crime was a legal defence, vs asking the jury to ignore the judge's ruling?


I'm thinking of NVDA acts of conscience which end up in front of a jury... I'm always surprised how often juries acquit. 
Hard to quantify how often this happens... Peace News is a good source of reporting of such cases. I'm on my phone so can't post lots of links but here are search results for the word Jury - scrolling through the link summaries it's clear at a glance there are lots of acquittals 

Search | Peace News 

This is a different category to cases deemed as rioting or clashes with police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Result:



All very good. But no help whatsoever to people who've received no legal or even moral support from xr when up in court


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 8, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ...though elequent explanations justifying breaking the law for the greater good have seen lots of people get off, particularly in front of juries.


I think you refer to the necessity defence,that you had to break one law to prevent a greater harm


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 13, 2021)

In defence of Extinction Rebellion
					

“The next popular climate movement can only avoid a slow death if its politics are as red as they are green.” – Mark Montegriffo – Jacobin Magazine “TALK’S CHEAP, BUT IT TAKES MONEY TO …




					freedomnews.org.uk


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I'm thinking of NVDA acts of conscience which end up in front of a jury... I'm always surprised how often juries acquit.
> Hard to quantify how often this happens... Peace News is a good source of reporting of such cases. I'm on my phone so can't post lots of links but here are search results for the word Jury - scrolling through the link summaries it's clear at a glance there are lots of acquittals
> 
> Search | Peace News
> ...


Some of those cases are collected here:




__





						Not Guilty! Nine amazing legal defences and unlikely verdicts from history
					

A review of nine amazing legal defences and unlikely acquittals from history:




					libcom.org
				




Important disclaimer: this post does not constitute legal advice, please consult with a qualified solicitor before blowing up the governor of Idaho, setting fire to the Spanish consulate, shooting a Ukrainian pogromist or stabbing any Met officers.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 13, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> In defence of Extinction Rebellion
> 
> 
> “The next popular climate movement can only avoid a slow death if its politics are as red as they are green.” – Mark Montegriffo – Jacobin Magazine “TALK’S CHEAP, BUT IT TAKES MONEY TO …
> ...



_"The pundits of the various leftist movements have spent thousands of words telling us how much better their red climate movement would have been (more working class!, more intersectional!, more militant!) than XR if only they’d got round to doing it."

 _


----------



## LDC (Aug 13, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> In defence of Extinction Rebellion
> 
> 
> “The next popular climate movement can only avoid a slow death if its politics are as red as they are green.” – Mark Montegriffo – Jacobin Magazine “TALK’S CHEAP, BUT IT TAKES MONEY TO …
> ...



A writer for Freedom _with a sense of humour_?! Now that's ground breaking.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 19, 2021)

I, erm, uh....


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 19, 2021)

Knackered old fridges? Or cheese?


----------



## 8ball (Aug 19, 2021)

Cake or death?


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 19, 2021)

"Diesel or gin?" has the makings of a great Day Today/Brass Eye bit. Also, did people round your way refer to snakebite & black as diesel, or was that just a local thing, or possibly even a very mid-2000s thing?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 19, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> "Diesel or gin?" has the makings of a great Day Today/Brass Eye bit. Also, did people round your way refer to snakebite & black as diesel, or was that just a local thing, or possibly even a very mid-2000s thing?


I think diesel was snakebite and black with vodka or something in it, back in my day?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 23, 2021)

Few thousand in Trafalgar square today.


----------



## Flavour (Aug 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> "Diesel or gin?" has the makings of a great Day Today/Brass Eye bit. Also, did people round your way refer to snakebite & black as diesel, or was that just a local thing, or possibly even a very mid-2000s thing?


I remember hearing this in Stoke, early 2000s


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

XR Pink table in Covent Garden. Surrounded by police. All credit to them for getting table up


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

Covent garden now


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

Love the homemade placards.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

XR have sense of humour some on left lack


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)




----------



## LDC (Aug 23, 2021)

Thought they were more targeting financial stuff rather than traffic etc. this time?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Thought they were more targeting financial stuff rather than traffic etc. this time?



I think they wanted the police to think that. They've done a great job outwitting the police today.

A lot of Covent garden area is pedestrianised now due to pandemic. From afternoon onwards.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

Tents up.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 23, 2021)

I feel nothing, no affinity with them at all.


----------



## A380 (Aug 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> _"The pundits of the various leftist movements have spent thousands of words telling us how much better their red climate movement would have been (more working class!, more intersectional!, more militant!) than XR if only they’d got round to doing it."
> 
> _


I love this article.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I feel nothing, no affinity with them at all.


Don't be so hard on the police. They're only doing their job.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 23, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> XR Pink table in Covent Garden. Surrounded by police. All credit to them for getting table up View attachment 284889


Any idea what the "human contact" one is on about, is that an XR thing or was it there already? There's a part of me that wonders if it's anti-lockdown stuff, but then I suppose it's a sorry state of affairs if I start reading the phrase "human contact" as being a dodgy dogwhistle.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Any idea what the "human contact" one is on about, is that an XR thing or was it there already? There's a part of me that wonders if it's anti-lockdown stuff, but then I suppose it's a sorry state of affairs if I start reading the phrase "human contact" as being a dodgy dogwhistle.



That predates this demo. I've seen a lot of those human contact posters around.


----------



## LDC (Aug 23, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Any idea what the "human contact" one is on about, is that an XR thing or was it there already? There's a part of me that wonders if it's anti-lockdown stuff, but then I suppose it's a sorry state of affairs if I start reading the phrase "human contact" as being a dodgy dogwhistle.



I think they're an anti-lockdown thing tbh.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 23, 2021)

We will all look back on this with regret


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 23, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I think they're an anti-lockdown thing tbh.


You're probably right, but fucking hell it's a sorry state of affairs if I have to start looking askew at anything that mentions "human contact".


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

The human contact posters aren't XR


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

Van used to block the road in Covent garden. Four people attached to the van.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

Hope these people will be ok this evening. I did chat to one for a while


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)




----------



## mojo pixy (Aug 23, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Few thousand in Trafalgar square today.



There weren't. There was a massive crowd along Cranbourne St. and Garrick St., may still be there (probably is) and around Covent Garden. Police had Tottenham Ct.Rd closed. But Trafalgar Sq. had maybe a dozen stray XR placards wandering about among the tourists. I was in and around the square (and the National Gallery) from 1pm till after 4 and never saw an XR crowd forming there.

Could still happen, but I imagine the police will be doing everything they can to prevent it.

(Apologies, I tried to upload a couple of photos of Cranbourne St and Trafalgar Sq, but my phone won't let me)


----------



## cupid_stunt (Aug 23, 2021)

I've always wondered how those 'locked-on' cope, so a big shout-out to C-4 News for allowing me to sleep tonight, by confirming they are wearing nappies.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> _"The pundits of the various leftist movements have spent thousands of words telling us how much better their red climate movement would have been (more working class!, more intersectional!, more militant!) than XR if only they’d got round to doing it."
> 
> _


Fair point, but it doesn't the failings of XR and it's unwillingness to see the root of the problem they are fighting: capitalism. Hopefully that can change


----------



## maomao (Aug 23, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've always wondered how those 'locked-on' cope, so a big shout-out to C-4 News for allowing me to sleep tonight, by confirming they are wearing nappies.


What's wrong with bottles and bedpans? Piss is going to get freezing cold if left next to the body overnight; changing nappy is likely to be more embarassing than going in a bottle and shitting in a nappy is not a solution to anything. Are you sure they weren't pulling the reporter's leg?


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 23, 2021)

I find it kinda depressing how far pollution of the planet has developed, how bad its got, while protesters remain stuck in pretty much the same set of behaviours as we were doing 25 years ago.

Even having samba bands!  Like these protesters are still stuck in the 1990's, blocking roads, doing lock-ons, dressing up and partying, while damage to the planet has ramped up enormously.

I know they've tweaked the tactics somewhat but really not much from what I can see. I was part of it in the 1990's, I kinda hoped the next generation would have exciting new ways of working. Sadly not.

I wish them well but don't see them being any more successful than we were, perhaps even less, unfortunately.


----------



## LDC (Aug 23, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I find it kinda depressing how far pollution of the planet has developed, how bad its got, while protesters remain stuck in pretty much the same set of behaviours as we were doing 25 years ago.
> 
> Even having samba bands!  Like these protesters are still stuck in the 1990's, blocking roads, doing lock-ons, dressing up and partying, while damage to the planet has ramped up enormously.
> 
> ...



They're a bit stuck in what kind of actions they can do though I think, largely due to the no anger, no confrontation, no pushing thing above and beyond non-violence that they insist on. It leaves them a very narrow range of options which is why they seem to keep blocking traffic and some chalking type symbolic stuff. Whether they stick with that or not remains to be seen. I think unless they move to other actions they'll be left behind, either by other people and groups, or just by their diminishing numbers.

This book been mentioned already, but it is well worth a read Verso


----------



## 8ball (Aug 23, 2021)

Sounds like a LARPer fantasist screed.
The right would be creaming themselves at the thought of what they could justify with a blown-up pipeline. 

Best kept to the realm of fiction, eh?

That said, the tactics of causing minor inconveniences and asking for things will bump up against its limits pretty quick.  The extent of public sympathy/antagonism is going to be a big factor in how it develops.  I expect more offshoot groups to form, especially with splits in terms of their stance towards capital (XR have plenty of internal tensions on this front, while trying to remain a ‘big tent’).


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

I've noticed my local XR Lambeth have broadened out to support other struggles. Reparations demo, supporting my local PSC in demo. Being present at demo about housing if I'm remember correctly.

Lobbying local Council to run a Peoples Assembly on Climate Change.

On non violent disruption. I don't have a problem with that. It takes courage to be locked to a van in Covent Garden. As I told them.

Chatting to them today at the van and I'm afraid some of Joe Public has grown hostile. I did tell them that Covent Garden isn't really a major route for traffic.

So I'd say on local level they are changing tactics.

I did listen to few minute of speaker at Trafalgar Square. Which was earlier in the day. Trafalgar Square was packed at that point with XR. Speaker was talking about effect of climate change on indigenous communities in the southern hemisphere.

So I do think XR are taking racism as an issue around climate change. Like supporting reparations demo in Brixton few weeks back.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Fair point, but it doesn't the failings of XR and it's unwillingness to see the root of the problem they are fighting: capitalism. Hopefully that can change



I think thats unfair. 

I covered most of the XR protests in London.

XR has different wings. I seem to remember photos from the Scottish lot who did in their banners link Capitalism and climate change.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 23, 2021)

They reckon they're super-successful because they've persuaded the press to write more honestly about the currently terrible ongoing climate disaster. They say that before XR the BBC in particular was describing climate breakdown as one of several future alternatives. Personally I think the reality of actual fires and floods and heatwaves is what has changed the press coverage. If XR had never existed I think everything would be better because the public has reacted badly to being lectured by the usual suspects. How many years in a row has the UK missed its emissions targets because everyone wants a huge car?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Fair point, but it doesn't the failings of XR and it's unwillingness to see the root of the problem they are fighting: capitalism. Hopefully that can change




Searched through posts. This is from Miss-Shelf

Im also pretty sure I took photos of their banners.

TBF I didn't see anything like this today.

XR are pretty amorphous lot. When I chat to them they are very nice earnest people. Not politicos. Which personally I find refreshing. But all left of centre. Definitely.

It could be the Scottish lot weren't in London today. Or have been sidelined in whatever counts as internal decision making in XR.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 23, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> They reckon they're super-successful because they've persuaded the press to write more honestly about the currently terrible ongoing climate disaster. They say that before XR the BBC in particular was describing climate breakdown as one of several future alternatives. Personally I think the reality of actual fires and floods and heatwaves is what has changed the press coverage. If XR had never existed I think everything would be better because the public has reacted badly to being lectured by the usual suspects. How many years in a row has the UK missed its emissions targets because everyone wants a huge car?



I don't follow what ur getting at.  Are you saying XR are the usual suspects?


----------



## LDC (Aug 24, 2021)

8ball said:


> Sounds like a LARPer fantasist screed.
> The right would be creaming themselves at the thought of what they could justify with a blown-up pipeline.
> 
> Best kept to the realm of fiction, eh?



Yes, it's a terrible title and not reflective of the contents at all. I recommend reading some reviews to get a feel for what it covers.









						Los Angeles Review of Books
					

Scott W. Stern reviews "How to Blow Up a Pipeline," the new book from Andreas Malm....




					lareviewofbooks.org
				




Plenty of people around the world _do _blow up pipelines btw, it's not just a weird fantasy.









						Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




E2A: iirc he argues _against _terrorism as any kind of useful activity.


----------



## LDC (Aug 24, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Fair point, but it doesn't the failings of XR and it's unwillingness to see the root of the problem they are fighting: capitalism. Hopefully that can change



I don't think it as simple as that. Some of XR do think it's just about carbon emissions and that some nicer green capitalism is the answer (which it arguably could be, but that's another discussion....) but also I do think plenty of people involved in XR _do_ see capitalism as the root problem, or at least they will come to through being involved and developing ideas etc.

Even if they don't, then they're still worth critically supporting etc. as with movements the interesting stuff is often not where they are now, but where they might be going and what they could achieve if their action escalates and gains widespread support, etc. That's one of my concerns with them now, that their use of blockades and disruptions is going to lose them support in the medium to long term.

And also if they were clearly 'against capitalism' how would/should that change what they do?

Oh, and I do think some of the arguments for not being supportive of them as they're not reformist and not against capitalism is slightly double standards from some who manage to support other struggles that are more 'traditional' leftie stuff that also just asks for small reforms like higher wages, better conditions, etc.

BLM is another example, round me loads of their public demands are horrendous tbh, and it just seems a vehicle for promotion of 'black businesses' and personalities scrabbling for power, but to dismiss it simply all as that would be a mistake imo.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 24, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I don't think it as simple as that. Some of XR do think it's just about carbon emissions and that some nicer green capitalism is the answer (which it arguably could be, but that's another discussion....) but also I do think plenty of people involved in XR _do_ see capitalism as the root problem, or at least they will come to through being involved and developing ideas etc.
> 
> Even if they don't, then they're still worth critically supporting etc. as with movements the interesting stuff is often not where they are now, but where they might be going and what they could achieve if their action escalates and gains widespread support, etc. That's one of my concerns with them now, that their use of blockades and disruptions is going to lose them support in the medium to long term.
> 
> ...


I'm saying that capitalism is the root of the crisis. In other words, if that isn't confonted then there won't be sufficient change. XR only makes it difficult for themselves by not addressing this. Of course as a movement their members will comprise many views, but the 'leadership' all appear to unequivocally reject this notion. Moreover they don't seem to want to address the possibility at all. 
This makes supporting them difficult. THough if that were the only issue it wouldn't be so bad, but the rest of their approach is also problematic: lovebombing the cops and a general belief, it seems, that the state is a benign force just misguided. It isn't about sneering or looking down on them. I am by no means an expert nor should I be taken as one, but their overall approach concerns me. Roger Hallam's attitude towards getting locked up is dreadful. Gail Bradbrook just seems a new age fantasist. 
Being against capitalims would at least mean being able to honestly and correctly approach the problem. I would hope it would inform their choice of actions so as to minimise disruption to working class people and have a repeat of the nonsense at Canning Town. It is unfair to label them all as 'professional protesters' who should 'get a job'. A cliche used to divide people, but why give those who weaponise such labels more ammunition than you need to? We all understand, by its nature, protest is disruptive, but there's a difference between annoying people on their way to their only source of income, and targeting directly those causing the problem


----------



## A380 (Aug 24, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> View attachment 284917
> View attachment 284918


That’s my ex’s new (well 15 or so years) new man! Top stuff.


----------



## LDC (Aug 24, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I'm saying that capitalism is the root of the crisis. In other words, if that isn't confonted then there won't be sufficient change. XR only makes it difficult for themselves by not addressing this. Of course as a movement their members will comprise many views, but the 'leadership' all appear to unequivocally reject this notion. Moreover they don't seem to want to address the possibility at all.
> This makes supporting them difficult. THough if that were the only issue it wouldn't be so bad, but the rest of their approach is also problematic: lovebombing the cops and a general belief, it seems, that the state is a benign force just misguided. It isn't about sneering or looking down on them. I am by no means an expert nor should I be taken as one, but their overall approach concerns me. Roger Hallam's attitude towards getting locked up is dreadful. Gail Bradbrook just seems a new age fantasist.
> Being against capitalims would at least mean being able to honestly and correctly approach the problem. I would hope it would inform their choice of actions so as to minimise disruption to working class people and have a repeat of the nonsense at Canning Town. It is unfair to label them all as 'professional protesters' who should 'get a job'. A cliche used to divide people, but why give those who weaponise such labels more ammunition than you need to? We all understand, by its nature, protest is disruptive, but there's a difference between annoying people on their way to their only source of income, and targeting directly those causing the problem



I largely agree.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> In defence of Extinction Rebellion
> 
> 
> “The next popular climate movement can only avoid a slow death if its politics are as red as they are green.” – Mark Montegriffo – Jacobin Magazine “TALK’S CHEAP, BUT IT TAKES MONEY TO …
> ...


pt2








						In defence of ‘In defence of Extinction Rebellion’
					

It would be prudent for me to open with the affirmation that this is an ‘opinion piece’. It is the opinion of one aging anarchist who has been active in class struggle and ecological resistance for…




					freedomnews.org.uk
				




<<<one comment on that is i have no faith in the notion of self substance farming


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 24, 2021)

Extinction Rebellion need to do much more of this sort of thing:









						Climate change activists target City of London's Guildhall
					

Climate change activists climbed the outside of the headquarters of the City of London's government on Sunday as they began two weeks of protests focused on the capital's financial district.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## 8ball (Aug 24, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> ... lovebombing the cops and a general belief, it seems, that the state is a benign force just misguided. It isn't about sneering or looking down on them. I am by no means an expert nor should I be taken as one, but their overall approach concerns me. Roger Hallam's attitude towards getting locked up is dreadful. Gail Bradbrook just seems a new age fantasist.


I agree with these bits.  The approach to the cops is somewhat in flux at the moment - they have become a lot more circumspect, and the same is the case re: capitalism, though that's not really clear from their outward presentation.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> pt2
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Self substance farming?
Sounds like growing your own weed.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2021)

They were at Cambridge Circus this evening. ( I have a few photos).

Was chatting to one XR. Talked about the police. I said police have wised up and now setting up a two week camp in Central London is not possible. Whilst as I chatting the police loudspeaker was already repeating message about leaving area under such and such an act. The cleared the camp and pink table from Covent Garden last night.

He agreed the police are now able to stop XR camps. I didn't see any love bombing of the police yesterday or today. Much different from the first time. Now they don't talk to police. Also chatting to the XR man and he saw police as part of way State stifles protest. XR have learned. A cop is a cop.

He seemed pessimistic. There aren't the numbers to thwart the police. Hallam non violence depends on more and more people joining up until authorities can't cope.

Not being able to set up a two week camp in Central London limits XR being able to get message across. It turns into a cat and mouse game with police. Which is what the police want.

Police are much more up to arresting people straight off. And waiting for night to remove people.

The novelty has worn off for media. They aren't covering like they were. Afghanistan is front page news.

Im not having a go at XR. Its imo a grim picture. This time mainstream politicians are ignoring them as far as I  can see.

The XR guy I talked to did have the XR Beyond Politics belief.

I felt that numbers were lower this time. 

They had thwarted the police by setting up the pink table. So must have learnt how to stop police getting intelligence on them.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2021)

As usual all the XR I talked to past few days are ordinary people. Not professional protestors etc. Lot of older people. I enjoyed talking to them. Unlike SWP they don't bang you over the head with the politics. 

I did notice Socialist Worker turn up to Cambridge Circus with their stall. Also an Anarchist group from Bristol had a stall.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> As usual all the XR I talked to past few days are ordinary people. Not professional protestors etc. Lot of older people.


Protesting on a weekday and not minding getting nicked, definitely something to do once retired


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2021)

Cambridge Circus Tuesday evening. XR managed to get van to block it


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2021)

Police removing the XR pink table from Covent garden. Took them ages. XR must have made it difficult to move


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2021)

Looking at the photo of pink table and I think their were protestors locked onto it.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 25, 2021)

It's a continuation of the previous day - protest bogged down in predictability says Martin.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 25, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's a continuation of the previous day - protest bogged down in predictability says Martin.



Is there anyone more predictable than him?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 25, 2021)

Certainly a more visible presence of coppers around the Bank of England this morning. I think Friday it's expected to kick off round here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Certainly a more visible presence of coppers around the Bank of England this morning. I think Friday it's expected to kick off round here.


The only kick off you'll see with xr is a police riot like when they attacked the climate camp in 09


----------



## kabbes (Aug 25, 2021)

Aren’t still only about 20% of people returning to offices in London?  The protests in the City must be to empty streets, no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Aren’t still only about 20% of people returning to offices in London?  The protests in the City must be to empty streets, no?


No, there are loads of journos watching


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 25, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Aren’t still only about 20% of people returning to offices in London?  The protests in the City must be to empty streets, no?



I'd put it at somewhere between 25-45% depending on day of the week. Casual observation though.


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Extinction Rebellion need to do much more of this sort of thing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure, what is more of that going to do? That kind of thing has been done for decades about various issues to little or no effect. How will it be any different this time? Especially as it seems like the dynamic of these events have changed already in terms of how the police and media regard them (the police less tolerant and the media less interested).

Lots of the other stuff that has blocked roads has a practical utility of stopping work or something similar, or it's been about creating a space for a party/liberated space from cars. With this I feel like there's a bit of them copying that blocking bit without the context.

So is it solely a numbers game; more activists = more disruption and publicity = government change of heart? That's what the XR's stated strategy is, that 3.5% thing based on the flawed study by Chenoweth and Stephan (which I'm sure most people in XR have no clue about). Or is the plan and goal something else?


----------



## A380 (Aug 25, 2021)

This thread is like the Full English Breakfast one but with the collapse of modern society and death of a huge proportion of humanity rather than hash browns at stake. 

Full of people commenting on why people who are doing something are doing it wrong without ‘getting the fucking pans out’ themselves.


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2021)

A380 said:


> This thread is like the Full English Breakfast one but with the collapse of modern society and death of a huge proportion of humanity rather than hash browns at stake.
> 
> Full of people commenting on why people who are doing something are doing it wrong without ‘getting the fucking pans out’ themselves.



I can't even find the kitchen any more.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 25, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm not sure, what is more of that going to do? That kind of thing has been done for decades about various issues to little or no effect. How will it be any different this time? Especially as it seems like the dynamic of these events have changed already in terms of how the police and media regard them (the police less tolerant and the media less interested).
> 
> Lots of the other stuff that has blocked roads has a practical utility of stopping work or something similar, or it's been about creating a space for a party/liberated space from cars. With this I feel like there's a bit of them copying that blocking bit without the context.
> 
> So is it solely a numbers game; more activists = more disruption and publicity = government change of heart? That's what the XR's stated strategy is, that 3.5% thing based on the flawed study by Chenoweth and Stephan (which I'm sure most people in XR have no clue about). Or is the plan and goal something else?


Numbers are down this rebellion. XR has yet to really recover from Covid,  which smashed it's meeting structure for a year. 

However as a whole XR has been doing a lot more year round stuff .


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 25, 2021)

I think they completely overestimate the amount of people who are willing and able to get to central London for a two week - indefinite period. I was pretty fired up to do something this time, but I really could only spare a couple of days and there's no clear point of crescendo to this rebellion, eg a weekend where numbers are really needed that I could try to get to. So I fucked it off. I think they really need to find more ways of allowing people all round the country to play a part rather than these annual London performances. 

I really wonder how my local ER group will function in future given quite a few of the leading members seem to have found a new passion in covid denial.


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I think they completely overestimate the amount of people who are willing and able to get to central London for a two week - indefinite period. I was pretty fired up to do something this time, but I really could only spare a couple of days and there's no clear point of crescendo to this rebellion, eg a weekend where numbers are really needed that I could try to get to. So I fucked it off. I think they really need to find more ways of allowing people all round the country to play a part rather than these annual London performances.
> 
> I really wonder how my local ER group will function in future given quite a few of the leading members seem to have found a new passion in covid denial.



What city are you in?

No idea how the local group here is doing, it felt like it was struggling before covid about what to do, and I'm not on any social media so completely out of touch now. Like you said people were getting less willing to go to London for ages, and some people also seemed to be less sure about the blockading/disruption stuff for a mix of reasons (others were still very keen and saw it as the main thing XR needed to so and keep doing). There was a slight tendency to seem to move into some vague 'education' direction that was arty stuff or picnics mostly.


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 25, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What city are you in?
> 
> No idea how the local group here is doing, it felt like it was struggling before covid about what to do, and I'm not on any social media so completely out of touch now. Like you said people were getting less willing to go to London for ages, and some people also seemed to be less sure about the blockading/disruption stuff for a mix of reasons (others were still very keen and saw it as the main thing XR needed to so and keep doing). There was a slight tendency to seem to move into some vague 'education' direction that was arty stuff or picnics mostly.


I'm in Calderdale. There are two groups here it seems, one for Calderdale and one for Halifax, which is bizarre because Halifax is in Calderdale - but likely has emerged like that because people in Hebden Bridge want their own thing rather than getting involved with the main urban centre. I'm probably being unfair to the Calderdale group it's probably only a couple of them who have gone covid-obsessed, and they are likely extremely grateful to be rid of them (assuming that they go down the linked rabbit hole to climate denial as well). 

No idea what either group have been up to since the early days when they were more visible. I will try to make an effort to check out what the Halifax group is up to.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 25, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I think they really need to find more ways of allowing people all round the country to play a part rather than these annual London performances.



People round the country are involved in smaller local actions pretty frequently.  There was a blockade of a waste incinerator near me a couple of weeks ago (because there are plans to build a new incinerator and the carbon profile of the thing is awful).


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 25, 2021)

8ball said:


> People round the country are involved in smaller local actions pretty frequently.  There was a blockade of a waste incinerator near me a couple of weeks ago (because there are plans to build a new incinerator and the carbon profile of the thing is awful).


Fair dos. I've not heard of much round here for a long time but it might be just that I'm out of the loop. And we have a waste incinerator about to be put in a geographically terrible place, rejected by the council and approved by Secretary of State...


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 25, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm not sure, what is more of that going to do? That kind of thing has been done for decades about various issues to little or no effect. How will it be any different this time? Especially as it seems like the dynamic of these events have changed already in terms of how the police and media regard them (the police less tolerant and the media less interested).
> 
> Lots of the other stuff that has blocked roads has a practical utility of stopping work or something similar, or it's been about creating a space for a party/liberated space from cars. With this I feel like there's a bit of them copying that blocking bit without the context.
> 
> So is it solely a numbers game; more activists = more disruption and publicity = government change of heart? That's what the XR's stated strategy is, that 3.5% thing based on the flawed study by Chenoweth and Stephan (which I'm sure most people in XR have no clue about). Or is the plan and goal something else?


What do you think of the idea of oil refineries being blockaded? Or those who invest in and profit from fossil fuels being targeted?


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> What do you think of the idea of oil refineries being blockaded? Or those who invest in and profit from fossil fuels being targeted?



Depends on how etc. I think blockading of currently operating oil facilities is likely to be very difficult (number of entrances, safety concerns, how much comes in and out by road on a daily basis rather than pipes etc.) and it will also be met with a harsh response and likely poor publicity. They also would require a good number of people that would be willing to risk getting arrested, and for it to work they would likely need to do more than just lie in the way, even if they are locked on to stuff. Also obviously strongly single location focused, so people have to travel to do anything, so that would cut involvement/numbers down. And it'd be massive amounts of planning and resources for one day that could just end up an ineffective disaster.

E2A: The people that work there could do it, but that's being possible is a different topic unfortunately.

The financial stuff sounds better, but in reality it is again largely symbolic, and often just results in local bank branches being hit with a banner or something, or maybe the roads in City of London being blocked.

Off top of my head if I were to pick an area for a target I'd hit new any oil and gas exploration. Easy demand, no new oil or gas developments in the UK. Big rolling co-ordinated attacks across the country against anyone involved in them, so decentralized stuff against suppliers, etc. as well as central things possible.

I dunno though, I fully accept it's really difficult and people are trying.


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 25, 2021)

If it doesn't cause a national crisis, why bother? Queues at petrol stations would get people's attention.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 25, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> If it doesn't cause a national crisis, why bother? Queues at petrol stations would get people's attention.


theres a balance of keeping the public on board i guess


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> If it doesn't cause a national crisis, why bother?



Quite an unrealistically high bar for doing anything isn't it?


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> theres a balance of keeping the public on board i guess



Also has he any idea of who many refineries and for who long they would have to be blocked before the queues even happened? 

Also people know about climate change, the idea we need to do things to bring it to their attention is years out of date.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 25, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Also has he any idea of who many refineries and for who long they would have to be blocked before the queues even happened?


i remember the blockages when fuel prices hit 80p!! amazing how quickly everything shut down


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 25, 2021)

Surely action needs to be targeted at those with the power to force change. And that is politicians and financial institutions, in the main.


----------



## lazythursday (Aug 25, 2021)

And locally, I think there's much more that could be done in terms of co-ordinated pressure on the planning system. Objections to carbon-centric development, protests at meetings, pressure on councillors. It's not glamorous but could start to shift the dial in terms of how much climate is factored into local planning decisions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> And locally, I think there's much more that could be done in terms of co-ordinated pressure on the planning system. Objections to carbon-centric development, protests at meetings, pressure on councillors. It's not glamorous but could start to shift the dial in terms of how much climate is factored into local planning decisions.


It might be easier to exert pressure when planning frameworks are revised because otherwise you'll be burning people out at a rate of knots


----------



## YouSir (Aug 25, 2021)

Passed by the Covent Garden thing and chatted to a guy, was keen on building up numbers for these things but I'm not sure why. You could double or triple the numbers I saw and police would still wade through them if they chose to. Same issue with every set piece thing in Central, they all follow the same pattern, get surrounded and gradually wind down. Was also an odd place to choose, one street over by Soho would have been far more disruptive, or financial district.


----------



## Leafster (Aug 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It might be easier to exert pressure when planning frameworks are revised because otherwise you'll be burning people out at a rate of knots


This ^^^ 

It's hard work trying to get individual developments turned down as the environmental standards enshrined in the planning framework aren't particularly high and most developers manage to "tick the boxes" on their environmental obligations.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

XR in Oxford Circus now. Trying to get the Pink table up. Top marks for  persistence


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Certainly a more visible presence of coppers around the Bank of England this morning. I think Friday it's expected to kick off round here.



Yes lot of police walking around in City today.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

Looks like a stand off between XR and police in Oxford Circus. (Main shopping area in central London).


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

Just been told by police to move on  as "This is a sanitised area". 

The fun spoilers are going to try to close down the demo.

Few more shots of protest.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

Saw one TV crew arrive.


----------



## LDC (Aug 25, 2021)

Wonder why Covent Garden was chosen?


----------



## YouSir (Aug 25, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Wonder why Covent Garden was chosen?



My guess is they're reacting to all the bitching about 'shutting down London'. Oxford Circus, Covent Garden - they're both fairly famous but primarily tourist areas, not loads of people driving around up there. Probably getting longer before the police try to shut them down too than if they went to the city. That said the majority of the complaining about the disruptions comes from people who know nothing about the areas it's happening in. Thames Water cause about 10,000 times more issues to Londoners through their routine negligence than XR ever have.

e2a: Swear that topless woman has gotten more coverage than the rest of the protests combined, fair play to her.


----------



## smmudge (Aug 25, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Aren’t still only about 20% of people returning to offices in London?  The protests in the City must be to empty streets, no?



The reporter on ITV the other day was saying they'd spoken to someone who was going back to the office for the first time in 18 months, and they just wanted things to get back to normal not have all this disruption, and it was like you've blatantly just made that up


----------



## Flavour (Aug 25, 2021)

Blocking any oil refinery or power station or other large carbon-emitting facility would still be effective even if the raw materials are delivered by pipeline: doesn't matter. If the staff can't get in then the plant shuts down. 

Accept that getting enough people who are prepared to risk almost-certain arrest and jail time for taking part in such an action is the main barrier. But that's precisely what the radical fringe of XR should be agitating for, rather than fucking Covent Garden


----------



## David Clapson (Aug 25, 2021)

How much jail time has this sort of thing got in the past?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 25, 2021)

XR aren't going to start shutting down refineries and power stations. That's not what they do or are for. It would be a terrific way to get themselves banned as a terrorist group for a start, which the government would absolutely love to do. They even got a whole load of shit for briefly blocking the delivery of Murdoch papers


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

Up thread XR were criticised for previous action halting transport. Therefore affecting working class. Closing down oil refineries or power station - this might be perceived as threatening the jobs of those who work at these places.

After all the coal miners industry was closed down and end result is their communities have been destroyed. Boris has been saying in hindsight that was Green. 

Just saying to close them down could alienate working people whose lively hood depends on these industries.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

Seen what XR have been trying to do in Central London. If they had been able to set up a two week camp then the media etc would have turned up to cover it.

Says something about this country when the State authorities - the Met- see the issue as one of " Sanitising" the space from peaceful XR. This kind of language used by officer as though its normal way to talk I found disturbing.

Seeing the miserable Met and XR together I know which one I prefer.

For just trying to input some fun into protest I think XR should get some credit.

I noticed what the Met are now doing is creating a "sanitised" space. Pushing Joe public further out. So when they move in and start arresting people annoying people like me can't film it.  The TV crew were also told to move outside of the sanitised area. Its new tactic from Met to keep people from seeing  what they get up to.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 25, 2021)

They're never going to reach the glory days of the first long campaign with the Berta Cacares in Oxford Circus. Even in November the same year, the fuzz were putting on massive pressure, plenty of absurd arrests, no pretence that they were trying to do anything but get them out. But I would assume that XR know that, and certainly all the people i know involved do.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

The other thing is that London has got head of Met who is real chums with the Tories.

Cressida I shot a Brazilian Dick. 

She was best mates with Theresa May and now Priti Patel.

Despite several issues that have happened to this middle class person during her long career in the police her ability to serve her Tory political masters had always stood her in good stead.

The hard-line on dealing with XR would be down to her and her mate Patel.

I haven't noticed mister safe pair of hands Khan say anything so far on XR protests in London.


----------



## A380 (Aug 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The other thing is that London has got head of Met who is real chums with the Tories.
> 
> Cressida I shot a Brazilian Dick.
> 
> ...


You obviously know nothing of the relationship between the Met (and wider police service) and the spivs in government at the moment.  Not sure Patel and Dick would be allowed in the same room together without referees or lawyers just now.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I noticed what the Met are now doing is creating a "sanitised" space. Pushing Joe public further out. So when they move in and start arresting people annoying people like me can't film it.  The TV crew were also told to move outside of the sanitised area. Its new tactic from Met to keep people from seeing  what they get up to.



It's not a new tactic, it's as old as cops at protests.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

A380 said:


> You obviously know nothing of the relationship between the Met (and wider police service) and the spivs in government at the moment.  Not sure Patel and Dick would be allowed in the same room together without referees or lawyers just now.



Met come under the Home Secretary. I'm not talking about wider police service.

If your not sure why say I obviously nothing? 

Either I know nothing and your right or not.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> It's not a new tactic, it's as old as cops at protests.



Didn't happen at earlier XR protests. I was there.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Didn't happen at earlier XR protests. I was there.



OK. Fair enough. It may be new in relation to XR, I thought you meant in relation to protests generally, soz. My bad.


----------



## A380 (Aug 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Met come under the Home Secretary. I'm not talking about wider police service.
> 
> If your not sure why say I obviously nothing?
> 
> Either I know nothing and your right or not.



Nope. Met cone directly under the Mayor of London rather than a PCC. True the Home Office can stick their noses in a little more than with other forces as the MPS have some national remits - although far less now they have lost direct responsibility for terrorism nationally  to the CT network. 

Lots of politicians and a fair few civil servants would love it if the Home Office was a proper Ministry of the Interior but it’s a long way from that. 

Notwithstanding all that, Dick and Patel have an almost broken relationship. Far worse than many Home Secretaries and commissioners.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 25, 2021)

A380 said:


> Nope. Met cone directly under the Mayor of London rather than a PCC. True the Home Office can stick their noses in a little more than with other forces as the MPS have some national remits - although far less now they have lost direct responsibility for terrorism nationally  to the CT network.
> 
> Lots of politicians and a fair few civil servants would love it if the Home Office was a proper Ministry of the Interior but it’s a long way from that.
> 
> Notwithstanding all that, Dick and Patel have an almost broken relationship. Far worse than many Home Secretaries and commissioners.



On issues like XR it comes under Home Secretary.

Particularly XR as its regarded as bound up with security issues.

Khan can summon Dick to see him as he did after Clapham Common hard line policing but that is afterwards not before.

Do they have broken relationship? Cressida Dick hasn't been forced to go. As she should have at disgraceful scenes at Clapham  common. Which were down to her over riding local Lambeth Police. Her main interest in policing is security issues. She isn't some kind of liberal when it comes down to protest.


----------



## A380 (Aug 25, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> On issues like XR it comes under Home Secretary.
> 
> Particularly XR as its regarded as bound up with security issues.
> 
> ...


No it doesn’t. I do t know what areas you do have knowledge of but governance of policing obviously ain’t one.  If your going to spout bollocks it can call other things you pontificate on into question, even if you do know what you are talking about there.


----------



## LDC (Aug 26, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Blocking any oil refinery or power station or other large carbon-emitting facility would still be effective even if the raw materials are delivered by pipeline: doesn't matter. If the staff can't get in then the plant shuts down.
> 
> Accept that getting enough people who are prepared to risk almost-certain arrest and jail time for taking part in such an action is the main barrier. But that's precisely what the radical fringe of XR should be agitating for, rather than fucking Covent Garden



AFAIK there's never been an effective (or even half effective) blockade of an oil refinery in the UK by any activist group, although there have been attempts. Not saying it's impossible, but currently I'm not sure any group could manage to pull it off tbh.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 26, 2021)

The Police and the governments' lapdog media are gaining the upper hand says Martin


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 26, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> XR in Oxford Circus now. Trying to get the Pink table up. Top marks for  persistence View attachment 285162View attachment 285163


I walked past on my way from Sister Ray Records to the tube!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 26, 2021)

I am going to head into town tomorrow and check things out, took a day off. I expect this weekend to have more going on, though I'm sure the cops will too.



BillRiver said:


> OK. Fair enough. It may be new in relation to XR, I thought you meant in relation to protests generally, soz. My bad.


Quite rare for central London protests generally as well IME - normally they just do their stuff, any  team dragging someone off gets followed by loads of photogs snapping and filming. As long as you don't get in the way they don't care. (A kettle is different mind.)

I do vaguely remember getting stuck in the area just north of Oxford Circus in the illy there when that got closed off by cops as a sort of processing area - that was at the first big XR fortnight in April 2019. But that was unusual and only in a small area. Normally you could just wander about wherever.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 27, 2021)

Piers Corbyn turned up at the "blood money" march in the City today (ETA: appeared halfway through to heckle). Who would have thought that a covid denier would also be a climate change denier?  anyway he wasn't exactly very well received and people kept unplugging his mic from the loudhailer, as well as drumming to drown him out.

I learned that there are XR "de-escalation" people in white vests, who get in the way when it looks like a fight is going to start, which sounds hippyish but is actually a good idea if you want to maintain non violence but people are still human and can be provoked. Someone did have a half hearted lunge at him but got nowhere near, though the loudhailer holder of course wanked on about "XR thugs" after that. They went away after a while.

(I also learned that if someone is speaking through a mic connected to a loudhailer it is extremely easy to just reach in and pull the cable.)


----------



## 8ball (Aug 27, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I learned that there are XR "de-escalation" people in white vests, who get in the way when it looks like a fight is going to start...



Yeah, a really good idea if you have people who are good at it.  The right body language can go a long way.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 27, 2021)

Those cunts aside, it was generally a fair-sized march taking a very unpredictable route through the City from Bank (most people on it didn't know where it was going to go at each turning, let alone the cops) with some red paint related property damage of banks, the theme being "Blood Money". Targets are not short on the ground there. I left after a couple of hours as my feet were killing me, I'm out of practice, though I was glad I'd been doing my cardio as I had to sprint to get to some of it.

There were a lot of cops but generally behaving themselves, didn't see anything egregious.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 27, 2021)

8ball said:


> Yeah, a really good idea if you have people who are good at it.  The right body language can go a long way.


I've not seen them on previous actions which made me think that they may have had organised hecklers and opposition recently.

I did notice a dubious looking team from a video channel, the posh boy presenters dressed up in suits, who were challenged on their presence by a couple of folk.


----------



## salem (Aug 27, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Piers Corbyn turned up at the "blood money" march in the City today. Who would have thought that a covid denier would also be a climate change denier?


He turned up as a counter protestor?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 27, 2021)

salem said:


> He turned up as a counter protestor?


Yes, only like four or five people with him mind. Sorry, didn't make it clear that he was still an arsehole and hadn't had some conversion to support something worthwhile.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 27, 2021)

I'll put up some pics when I've gone through them.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

At City now. They're now at Cannon Street / Queen Victoria Street. They've put up treehouses they are trying themselves to.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

Several treehouses,


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

A few bannera


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

Just got here in time as police are now surrounding the protest.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

Impressed by the wooden structures.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)




----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

Chatting to one of XR about the tensegrity structures. They are bamboo with steel cables holding them up.

Article here on them he told me about.

Haven't had time to read it yet









						"Extinction Rebellion's tensegrity structures have rekindled the spirit of early high tech"
					

Extinction Rebellion's protest towers that blocked newspaper printers are high-tech architecture and should win the Stirling Prize, argues Phineas Harper.




					www.dezeen.com


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)




----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 27, 2021)

Thanks for the pics and commentary Gramsci appreciated.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yes, only like four or five people with him mind. Sorry, didn't make it clear that he was still an arsehole and hadn't had some conversion to support something worthwhile.



In his early days he was good on issues of housing in London. Back in 70s. Part of the more political squatting scene. Did a lot of good work. At the time was in the International Marxist Group along with Tariq Ali. A small but influential Marxist group. 

The squatting scene in London then was big.

I've seen him at housing stuff. On that he is good.

He's gone off on a tangent about the pandemic.

Kind of sad to see as in younger days did a lot of good work.

In some ways the XR protests now have similarities to what he did in 70s. There are parallels.

Anti mainstream authority.

Not sure what to make of it. XR protests have their percentage of slightly off the wall people as well.

I don't have a problem with that.

Its what makes street protest interesting.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 27, 2021)

I see XR are still going on about what they term "Peoples Assemblies" as part of the "Beyond Politics" agenda.

Its where I part company with XR. They aren't Peoples Assmblies. This isn't the workers and peasants taking over. Or the masses getting a bigger say in how things are run. Which Imo they should.

It more accurate to use the term Deliberative Democracy.

There are various types. Some better than others. But XR don't go into this.

There is a debate to be had about extending democracy and how to do it. Deliberative Democracy could be part of this. But it needs more discussion. XR take it as a given.

I find banners and website going on about People's Assemblies a bit misleading.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


>



But what do you think?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 28, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> AFAIK there's never been an effective (or even half effective) blockade of an oil refinery in the UK by any activist group, although there have been attempts. Not saying it's impossible, but currently I'm not sure any group could manage to pull it off tbh.



it would very little to disrupt the oil stuff in the UK with action at refeineries, ie they dont need to much delay to impact the public


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


>


You clearly think his opinion is worthy of posting here, so could you offer some reasons why anyone should give a flying fuck what this curmudgeonly, moaning bloke thinks? What possible relevance does he have to anything?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> You clearly think his opinion is worthy of posting here, so could you offer some reasons why anyone should give a flying fuck what this curmudgeonly, moaning bloke thinks? What possible relevance does he have to anything?


The guy knows his stuff. Has been an activist for decades and has seen movements come and go over the years, including environmental movements.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The guy knows his stuff. Has been an activist for decades and has seen movements come and go over the years, including environmental movements.


But is he actually good at working with other people? That's what it takes to build movements, to work with a range of people, some of whom might not entirely agree with you. Otherwise you just end up in a tiny group of six people who do agree with you, and you're not a movement.

I've met him btw and he's a grumpy more-radical-than-you arse in real life so the first question was rhetorical.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> But is he actually good at working with other people? That's what it takes to build movements, to work with a range of people, some of whom might not entirely agree with you. Otherwise you just end up in a tiny group of six people who do agree with you, and you're not a movement.
> 
> I've met him btw and he's a grumpy more-radical-than-you arse in real life so the first question was rhetorical.


I've met him too, atleast a few times. Knows his stuff and has got his head screwed on. Has a nice way about him and a great sense of humour aswell.

Unfortunately he gets a lot of ageism and unfair criticism aimed at him.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I've met him too, atleast a few times. Knows his stuff and has got his head screwed on. Has a nice way about him and a great sense of humour aswell.
> 
> Unfortunately he gets a lot of ageism and unfair criticism aimed at him.


I'm sure he does.

But he also says objectivley stupid things. The argument that voting changes nothing or that Labour and the Tories are equally bad is plainly wrong. He also refuses to engage in anything productive. Not once has he put forward any suggestions on how to achieve his goals other than, it seems, go out and riot. That didn't work so well in 2011.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I'm sure he does.
> 
> But he also says objectivley stupid things. The argument that voting changes nothing or that Labour and the Tories are equally bad is plainly wrong. He also refuses to engage in anything productive. Not once has he put forward any suggestions on how to achieve his goals other than, it seems, go out and riot. That didn't work so well in 2011.


He seems like quite a standard-order urban75 poster, at least in the politics forum, to me. People here are regularly saying/doing all of the above.

I wonder what username he goes under.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The guy knows his stuff. Has been an activist for decades and has seen movements come and go over the years, including environmental movements.


As far as I can see, he just makes moaning videos slagging off young people who, unlike him, have got off their arses to do something.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The guy knows his stuff. Has been an activist for decades and has seen movements come and go over the years, including environmental movements.


So have loads of people here.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> But is he actually good at working with other people? That's what it takes to build movements, to work with a range of people, some of whom might not entirely agree with you. Otherwise you just end up in a tiny group of six people who do agree with you, and you're not a movement.
> 
> I've met him btw and he's a grumpy more-radical-than-you arse in real life so the first question was rhetorical.



He is a total shit ime.

Absolute arsehole.

Certain things he has said and done that I will never forgive or forget.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> it would very little to disrupt the oil stuff in the UK with action at refeineries, ie they dont need to much delay to impact the public



There were massive shortages the last time it was tried properly  ((2005 far right bollocks with an anti lorry tax front organisation) and not a single litre was stopped at the gates but panic buying fucked the Just in Time supply chain. A bit like toilet paper last year.  You could probably get shortages with not much activity. But as the Nazis found out last time I think the Security Service would be all over you in about 3/10ths of a second and collapse the movement.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

Well this thread has turned into a ridiculous pile-on, so I don't think I'll participate in it any longer, for the time being.

All I did was post a video expressing a knowledgable viewpoint regarding what XR are currently up to.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> He is a total shit ime.
> 
> Absolute arsehole.
> 
> Certain things he has said and done that I will never forgive or forget.


That abuse is not called for IMO.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> That abuse is not called for IMO.



Oh it is. It very much is.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I'm sure he does.
> 
> But he also says objectivley stupid things. The argument that voting changes nothing or that Labour and the Tories are equally bad is plainly wrong. He also refuses to engage in anything productive. Not once has he put forward any suggestions on how to achieve his goals other than, it seems, go out and riot. That didn't work so well in 2011.


Do you really want to de-rail this thread into one all about electoralism?

I don't think that's a good idea.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> Not once has he put forward any suggestions on how to achieve his goals other than, it seems, go out and riot. That didn't work so well in 2011.


That is false


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I'm sure he does.
> 
> But he also says objectivley stupid things. The argument that voting changes nothing or that Labour and the Tories are equally bad is plainly wrong. He also refuses to engage in anything productive. Not once has he put forward any suggestions on how to achieve his goals other than, it seems, go out and riot. That didn't work so well in 2011.


This post is objectively stupid if anything is^


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


>


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Absolute arsehole.


You are very much so indeed


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> View attachment 285620


How original


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well this thread has turned into a ridiculous pile-on, so I don't think I'll participate in it any longer, for the time being.
> 
> All I did was post a video expressing a knowledgable viewpoint regarding what XR are currently up to.


That video was just that bloke slagging young people off. There was nothing knowledgeable about it - it was just bitter and sneering.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> How original


You obviously fail to grasp the meta irony …


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

And that's all I have to say for now.

Although, I'd already stopped posting ages ago, long before this nonsense.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> That video was just that bloke slagging young people off. There was nothing knowledgeable about it - it was just bitter and sneering.


He's got nothing against young people. That's complete bollocks. He actually said in a previous vid that people should support the kids on these demos - but he was hoping it wouldn't be the pile of wank that it's turned out to be.

Ciao for now.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Hang on; you wrote :



Count Cuckula said:


> …so I don't think I'll participate in it any longer, for the time being….



And yet you have posted six more times immediately afterwards. It’s very strange.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> That video was just that bloke slagging young people off. There was nothing knowledgeable about it - it was just bitter and sneering.



The whining about protests resembling a party is very Daily Mail c. 1996.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> He's got nothing against young people. That's complete bollocks. He actually said in a previous vid that people should support the kids on these demos - but he was hoping it wouldn't be the pile of wank that it's turned out to be.
> 
> Ciao for now.



Bye!


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

8ball said:


> The whining about protests resembling a party is very Daily Mail c. 1996.


Why the fuck shouldn't a protest resemble a party?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> Why the fuck shouldn't a protest resemble a party?


Why shouldn't meaningful action be done instead? Especially when you have the numbers and resources that XR do.

What are Extinction Rebellion actually achieving?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Impressed by the wooden structures.


Why? What is the point of them?

They seem to be a waste of time, effort and money to me.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 28, 2021)

Does my nut that after years of knocking out these little moan ups once a week he still hasn't learned to speak to camera.


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Why shouldn't meaningful action be done instead? Especially when you have the numbers and resources that XR do.
> 
> What are Extinction Rebellion actually achieving?


What kind of 'meaningful action' would you suggest then? 

Sit in your bedroom making shitty moaning videos like your stay at home hero?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> What kind of 'meaningful action' would you suggest then?
> 
> Sit in your bedroom making shitty moaning videos like your stay at home hero?


If you actually listened to Martin you'd have heard him say he went down to the protests. But you don't really do listening.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Why shouldn't meaningful action be done instead? Especially when you have the numbers and resources that XR do.
> 
> What are Extinction Rebellion actually achieving?


Excellent training for the cops


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> This post is objectively stupid if anything is^


How so?


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> That is false


What, for example, is his suggestion in respect of climate change?


----------



## editor (Aug 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you actually listened to Martin you'd have heard him say he went down to the protests. But you don't really do listening.



I didn't ask what he watched. I asked what actions he actually did himself. Try reading before engaging smart arse mode next time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> I didn't ask what he watched. I asked what actions he actually did himself. Try reading before engaging smart arse mode next time.


I said nothing of what he watched  you talked of making videos like your stay at home hero. Martin, the man in the video, did not stay at home. So ffs think before you post.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> Why the fuck shouldn't a protest resemble a party?


Because it might encourage people to feel happiness, optimism and togetherness, and also risks engaging new people with the cause and persuading them to join in with future actions.  Everyone knows the purpose of protest is to make sure that the bleakness of life is emphasised to put off as many people from possible from joining and ensure that those taking part can go home knowing they have suffered  and are therefore better than other people. Ideally a protest is half a dozen people listening to each other make 45 minute long speeches about the minor details something that happened over a century ago whilst selling newspapers they all have already read to each other. In the rain. If anyone new happened to come along they should be well and truly seen off.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> How so?


Because you believe in the system. You think the red tories are better than the blue.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

editor said:


> What kind of 'meaningful action' would you suggest then?


Well if you paid attention to this thread you'd notice that I think that actions against the financial sector and in the financial district are worthwhile.

And I also asked people on here what they think of the idea of blockading oil refineries.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> What, for example, is his suggestion in respect of climate change?


You said he doesn't offer an alternative. That is false. Martin has spoken about the need for popular assemblies and building our own structures on his channel plenty of times.

But you're clearly not interested in that and would rather vote labour, or try and build up some trot party or something.


----------



## belboid (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


>



what a tedious collation of cliches. Everything he criticises them for could just as easily be thrown back at him.  Well, except for the bits about XR being fun.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Excellent training for the cops



Not really, a few probationers might get something out of it given the lack of football policing these days but not much else, perhaps a chance for a new silver to realise that even a relatively good  command and control system is never a match for distributed decision making against a broad strategic aim, but most know that by now and go with the flow.   Most old bill lock on teams will have seen it all before, although the transportable concrete two person jobs inside wheelie suitcases were a pretty nifty idea. Otherwise just an opportunity for bored rozzers  to stand around Covent Garden and the city listening to Samba bands and whinging about the lack of bank holiday overtime.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> You said he doesn't offer an alternative. That is false. Martin has spoken about the need for popular assemblies and building our own structures on his channel plenty of times.
> 
> But you're clearly not interested in that and would rather vote labour, or try and build up some trot party or something.


So how many popular assemblies has he participated in, roughly how many people were engaged and what where the deliverables?

Likewise, broadly so as not to damage security, how has he contributed to building structures, roughly how many are involved and again, what have the deliverables been so far and what are planned for the mid term?


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Because you believe in the system. You think the red tories are better than the blue.


I don't know what you mean by 'believe in the system', can you unpack that?

I think it stands to reason that the current Labour party, whom I do not support objectively, would be better for the working class than this Tory shitshow. Can you provide a counter argument?



Count Cuckula said:


> You said he doesn't offer an alternative. That is false. Martin has spoken about the need for popular assemblies and building our own structures on his channel plenty of times.
> 
> But you're clearly not interested in that and would rather vote labour, or try and build up some trot party or something.


I said that I haven't heard him provide one. If he has then you are welcome to correct me. 

However you seem to be intent on straw manning me for some reason. 

That aside, if he has advocated those things then can youe xplain how we would do that. For instance, can you define what 'building our own structures' means? What sort of structures and how do you envision they would operate?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> So how many popular assemblies has he participated in, roughly how many people were engaged and what where the deliverables?
> 
> Likewise, broadly so as not to damage security, how has he contributed to building structures, roughly how many are involved and again, what have the deliverables been so far and what are planned for the mid term?


You would have to ask him what he's been involved with over the years.

But I know he's been involved with Class War, Movement Against the Monarchy and militant anti-fascism and other stuff.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> I think it stands to reason that the current Labour party, whom I do not support objectively, would be better for the working class than this Tory shitshow. Can you provide a counter argument?


And you're wrong. And that post of yours speaks volumes about you.

The Labour Party have waived through every heinous tory bill going in parliament.

And here, read this: Labouring in vain: a critical history of the Labour Party









						Appeal to the Young - Anarchist Communist Group
					

This appeal is addressed to the young and the not so young. It is aimed at those who have joined the Labour Party over the last four years on the Corbynist wave, who are now thinking of leaving it or have already left. It is addressed to those who have mobilised around the environment and have...




					www.anarchistcommunism.org
				




Every time the Labour Party have got in they've attacked working class living standards, and strikers.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 28, 2021)

Tbh I would prefer if you outlined the views expressed and elaborated on bits that you thought were valuable (or not) and why, basically because I hate watching YouTube pieces to camera.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Tbh I would prefer if you outlined the views expressed and elaborated on bits that you thought were valuable (or not) and why, basically because I hate watching YouTube pieces to camera.


"Old bloke reads something he's written about the trouble with the youth of today whilst not looking at the camera and wearing a hat indoors to show his radicalism or something."

My reflections on this were outlined in the still from the Simpsons I posted earlier, to wit, "Old man yells at cloud".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> "Old bloke reads something he's written about the trouble with the youth of today whilst not looking at the camera and wearing a hat."


Also he's not even here. Or if he is he's keeping quiet about it. If you can't argue with somebody about what they've posted I don't see the point of the internet.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Why shouldn't meaningful action be done instead? Especially when you have the numbers and resources that XR do.
> 
> What are Extinction Rebellion actually achieving?



This you not posting then?


----------



## ash (Aug 28, 2021)

I think they ended up in Clapham


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> And you're wrong. And that post of yours speaks volumes about you.
> 
> The Labour Party have waived through every heinous tory bill going in parliament.
> 
> ...



You seem to have continued to post, again and again, I see.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> And here, read this: Labouring in vain: a critical history of the Labour Party
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool, the leaflet named after racist pub signs again...

ETA Spoiler as contains racist imagery



Spoiler











Spoiler



Anyway, I have to clean my goldfish out, which is far more productive than this.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> You seem to have continued to post, again and again, I see.


I said earlier that I would stop posting* for the time being*


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> Cool the leaflet named after racist pub signs again...
> 
> View attachment 285663
> 
> ...


Well that's just stupid bollocks.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 28, 2021)

Anyway, much like this XR fortnite of protest has proved to be so far - this thread has proved to be a complete waste of time.

Ciao.


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> And you're wrong. And that post of yours speaks volumes about you.
> 
> The Labour Party have waived through every heinous tory bill through parliament.
> 
> ...


None of this is relevant nor disputed.

All of the claims in that article can be true and it can also be true that Labour would still be better for the working class than this Tory government. If you genuinely believe that, had Corbyn's Labour won in 2019, things would be at best as they are now then I don't know how to continue this conversation. I think there's a fundamental lack of nuance present. My only concern is how things are for the working class. We can vote for labour as a tool in the overall aresenal of class war while we move to better conditions. It doesn't mean we love them or even support them. Your position seems to be incredibly reductionist and impractical. We aren't in a position to get an ideal society at this time, anarchism is viewed with even more misunderstanding and derision than communism. I mentioned the 2011 riots for a reason earlier. People didn't think it was a revolutionary step, they thought it was chaos and destruction...anarchy (in their minds). Why else did the cops in Bristol accuse protesters of breaking bones? We shouldn't sacrifice the possibility of some modest gains on the altar of ideological purity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

A380 said:


> Not really, a few probationers might get something out of it given the lack of football policing these days but not much else, perhaps a chance for a new silver to realise that even a relatively good  command and control system is never a match for distributed decision making against a broad strategic aim, but most know that by now and go with the flow.   Most old bill lock on teams will have seen it all before, although the transportable concrete two person jobs inside wheelie suitcases were a pretty nifty idea. Otherwise just an opportunity for bored rozzers  to stand around Covent Garden and the city listening to Samba bands and whinging about the lack of bank holiday overtime.


Training not in the sense of instilling new knowledge but of practicing what they do know, as a musician practices a piece


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Training not in the sense of instilling new knowledge but of practicing what they do know, as a musician practices a piece


Oh I see; Bizzies variations on a theme of standing about and moaning. 

Keeps em off the streets I suppose...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 28, 2021)

Anyway I said I would put up some pics from the earlier part so here are some pics from the earlier part, with no Piers Corbyn.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I said earlier that I would stop posting* for the time being*



And then you posted again immediately after that. Then you stopped, for an hour, before posting several more times. Then yet again saying "ciao".


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Anyway, much like this XR fortnite of protest has proved to be so far - this thread has proved to be a complete waste of time.
> 
> Ciao.



Bye, again!


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> And then you posted again immediately after that. Then you stopped, for an hour, before posting several more times. Then yet again saying "ciao".


That's a ciao for hello


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> ...
> 
> Ciao.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's a ciao for hello



Was clearly meant as goodbye here, but nice try anyway.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 28, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Does my nut that after years of knocking out these little moan ups once a week he still hasn't learned to speak to camera.


On the other hand, he does have some quite nice flowers, and that pinboard thing looks like it'd be interesting to have a look at, so he has that going for him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Was clearly meant as goodbye here, but nice try anyway.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 28, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Piers Corbyn turned up at the "blood money" march in the City today (ETA: appeared halfway through to heckle). Who would have thought that a covid denier would also be a climate change denier?  anyway he wasn't exactly very well received and people kept unplugging his mic from the loudhailer, as well as drumming to drown him out.
> 
> I learned that there are XR "de-escalation" people in white vests, who get in the way when it looks like a fight is going to start, which sounds hippyish but is actually a good idea if you want to maintain non violence but people are still human and can be provoked. Someone did have a half hearted lunge at him but got nowhere near, though the loudhailer holder of course wanked on about "XR thugs" after that. They went away after a while.
> 
> (I also learned that if someone is speaking through a mic connected to a loudhailer it is extremely easy to just reach in and pull the cable.)


Their de escalation people can be hugely shit. They intervened when I confronted two known fascists on a XR demo in Whitehall and they managed to get away as a result. The appeals for peace and love and pacifism seemed at best naive.


----------



## Doodler (Aug 28, 2021)

In the shorft term XR will be widely mocked and condemned, In the long run they may prove to be influential.


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Their de escalation people can be hugely shit. They intervened when I confronted two known fascists on a XR demo in Whitehall and they managed to get away as a result. The appeals for peace and love and pacifism seemed at best naive.


Sounds like they succeeded in de-escalating that one. Which may not have been the 'right result' but was what they were trying to do.

What were your intentions re the fascist scum if X R hadn't let them escape: exposing them to other protestors; giving  the two of them a decent  shoeing or stabbing them?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

Doodler said:


> In the shorft term XR will be widely mocked and condemned, In the long run they may prove to be influential.


In the long run we're all dead


----------



## A380 (Aug 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> In the long run we're all dead


A Keyne argument ...


----------



## teuchter (Aug 28, 2021)

I haven't been following the thread today but has it been established yet that Count Cuckula is the guy in the video?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I haven't been following the thread today but has it been established yet that Count Cuckula is the guy in the video?


He is not the guy in the video


----------



## YouSir (Aug 28, 2021)

Had someone ask me about XR today and whether they should get involved, not because I'm part of it, just because I'm more up on these things I suppose. Basically told them it was well intentioned but, from what I've seen, pointless. Suggested trying some local community org instead for actual hands on usefulness. Maybe I'm missing something? Passed by a few of their day out actions over the last few years, still yet to see anything particularly... active. Just seems like bog standard static protests with a slightly more middle class and naive vibe.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 28, 2021)

Extinction Rebellion to hold ‘crises rally’ inside Brixton Market at noon today, Sat 28th Aug 2021
					

The Extinction Rebellion Internationalist Solidarity Network is holding a ‘crises rally’ inside Brixton Market today, starting at noon  (Sat 28th August, 2021). Their Facebook event pag…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com
				




Went to this today. Rally by XR International section. XR are supporting /working with Pan Africanist group who want reparations. Did hear three speakers. The second from the XR International section said until Capitalism is got rid of the inequality and poverty affecting black and indegenous people would not end. Gail Bradbrook talked of how Neo Liberalism was a failure. The idea that allowing so called free markets to flourish would reduce inequality across the world has failed. Corporations are part of the problem. As well as most global institutions. XR was working to hold a Peoples Assembly for the global South. (not sure she used that term). This would be bottom up decision making. The first speaker who I think was from the African reparations group linked environmental destruction, imperialism and legacy of slavery together.

Most of above seems OK to me. Though I'm not convinced about People's Assemblies.

Doing this in Brixton outside the Rec where Nelson Mandela came is appropriate.

Some photos.

The guys who hang out in the Eritrean cafe liked the speakers


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2021)




----------



## YouSir (Aug 29, 2021)

editor said:


> Why the fuck shouldn't a protest resemble a party?



Tbf the party aspect of a lot of protests tends to be defined by what sort of party a handful of the protestors want. Which is fine, to each their own, but doesn't exactly draw in those it doesn't appeal to.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2021)

Black Intellectuals, Vaccines & Stopping the Maangamizi: A Pan-Afrikan Reparatory Justice Critical Examination
					

“You must not abandon discussion out of tact . . . There should be noconcession where there is a question of establishing a scientific truth . . .Remember we are focused on a quest for truth and no…




					stopthemaangamizi.com
				




I looked up the reparations group who took part in XR rally. Bit concerned about this page on their website. Very long winded. But whilst saying not totally against Vaccine they criticise Kehinde for encouraging Black people to have Vaccine.



From what I can make of their statement they are in effect anti Vaccine at this time. 

If anyone else can read it to see if I'm wrong.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 29, 2021)

A380 said:


> View attachment 285700


Ciao can mean hello or goodbye


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 29, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> None of this is relevant nor disputed.
> 
> All of the claims in that article can be true and it can also be true that Labour would still be better for the working class than this Tory government. If you genuinely believe that, had Corbyn's Labour won in 2019, things would be at best as they are now then I don't know how to continue this conversation. I think there's a fundamental lack of nuance present. My only concern is how things are for the working class. We can vote for labour as a tool in the overall aresenal of class war while we move to better conditions. It doesn't mean we love them or even support them. Your position seems to be incredibly reductionist and impractical. We aren't in a position to get an ideal society at this time, anarchism is viewed with even more misunderstanding and derision than communism. I mentioned the 2011 riots for a reason earlier. People didn't think it was a revolutionary step, they thought it was chaos and destruction...anarchy (in their minds). Why else did the cops in Bristol accuse protesters of breaking bones? We shouldn't sacrifice the possibility of some modest gains on the altar of ideological purity.


From the article I posted :

Corbyn spent the first two weeks of his leadership backing down and capitulating on precisely the things his supporters wanted from him. He was forced to make the vote over scrapping Trident and opposing the current austerity measures a free vote, meaning MPs were able to ignore him. He also stated that his opposition to the benefits cap was purely personal and worst of all, he stated that Labour, if elected, would work within the same budget laid out by the Tories. We should not be surprised by his well-intentioned lies. Corbyn is just one in a long line of ‘new hopes’ of the Left, designed to fail before they have even started. PASOK and SYRIZA in Greece betrayed their supporters. The Irish and German Green Parties sold out to get a chair at the table. Podemos in Spain u-turned on their radical rhetoric.


An opponent of immigration controls, at the last election Corbyn promised the most right-wing Labour policy on immigration in over 30 years. An opponent of NATO, he regarded it as a “danger to world peace” and socialists had to campaign against it. He now embraced NATO, saying that “I want to work within NATO to achieve stability”. A life-long opponent of the monarchy, Corbyn now stated that the abolition of the monarchy “is not on my agenda.” A critic of the police and its shoot-to-kill policy he once laid a wreath to victims of police violence at the Cenotaph. He now said that the police should use: “whatever force is necessary to protect and save life.” Labour pledged to increase the number of police by 10,000 and the number of prison warders by 3,000 and border guards by 500.


How much more would Corbyn have turned to the right if he were Prime Minister?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 29, 2021)

And btw, Martin isn't anti-XR. He may have reservations or criticisms regarding them, but he can't be described as anti-XR.

He's just been giving his viewpoint on what he's seen on the day.

And he knows how important climate change is. He just doesn't want XR to squander their opportunities and he knows they are not beyond criticism.

And I'm sure, like me and others, Martin hopes that this coming week is better for XR.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Black Intellectuals, Vaccines & Stopping the Maangamizi: A Pan-Afrikan Reparatory Justice Critical Examination
> 
> 
> “You must not abandon discussion out of tact . . . There should be noconcession where there is a question of establishing a scientific truth . . .Remember we are focused on a quest for truth and no…
> ...



I don't think you're wrong, it's very clearly anti vaccine.
The idea that certain groups are being used as 'guinea pigs' doesn't make much sense to me, seeing as the vaccine is being offered to absolutely everyone.
All the anti vaccination arguments on that page boil down to variations on the standard ones as far as I can see.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> And btw, Martin isn't anti-XR. He may have reservations or criticisms regarding them, but he can't be described as anti-XR.
> 
> He's just been giving his viewpoint on what he's seen on the day.
> 
> And he knows how important climate change is. He just doesn't want XR to squander their opportunities and he knows they are not beyond criticism.


Ciao, Martin!


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> From the article I posted :
> 
> Corbyn spent the first two weeks of his leadership backing down and capitulating on precisely the things his supporters wanted from him. He was forced to make the vote over scrapping Trident and opposing the current austerity measures a free vote, meaning MPs were able to ignore him. He also stated that his opposition to the benefits cap was purely personal and worst of all, he stated that Labour, if elected, would work within the same budget laid out by the Tories. We should not be surprised by his well-intentioned lies. Corbyn is just one in a long line of ‘new hopes’ of the Left, designed to fail before they have even started. PASOK and SYRIZA in Greece betrayed their supporters. The Irish and German Green Parties sold out to get a chair at the table. Podemos in Spain u-turned on their radical rhetoric.
> 
> ...


You keep arguing a straw man based on some notion I don't hold that labour are perfect and the tories aren't. I don't think that. I simply think that a Labour government wouldn't be _as bad as the Tories._ That's the best we can hope from this system, and said system ain't going anywhere anytime soon. I wish that were different, but until then it is a tool we can use. As such, as part of the struggle, we should use it to our advantage. Why? Because if we don't the Tories will.

This pablum about Corbyn is just irrelevant mate. No one is saying that, had he won, he'd have turned into Trotsky. The point is that he wouldn't have turned into Boris Johnson.

It's a shit situation we are in. Capitalism is dominant, faltering, and the far right are popular. Critical thinking has taken a back seat to rhetoric and fear. But to argue only for idealistic outcomes over small modest changes - even possibilities - makes absolutely no sense.

Arguing about what a monster Jeremy _might_ have been, as PM, is utterly irrelevant. It's also just ill intentioned speculation. Yes I grant he _might_ have conceded on a number of issues. But where is the evidence he would have been as bad as the fucking Tories right now? Currently Johnson is happy for a thousand covid deaths a week. Has lied at the despath box every fucking time he's spoken, and his ruinous duplicitous brexit has made things worse than they needed to be. Of course that's just a small spoonful of the shit the Tories have created. Do you really think he'd have created the kind of spiteful policies Priti Patel has allowed, for example? On what evidence?

Don't forget that Corbyn, while I grant he may have watered down his positions, was under repeated and very public fire from his own parliamentary party since day 1. While many Tories do think Johnson is a clown, they don't show it in the same way. They stick together, like shitbirds of a feather, like thieves. Labour had the scum like Ian Austin publicly call for people to vote for the Tories! For all his faults, Corbyn has remained pretty consistent on his principles throughout his career.  Boris on the other hand has been a grasping mendacious opportunist. There is no comparison and it is fucking obvious who would have been the better choice.

There's a huge difference between watering down policies, and I'm not naive to the fact that happens, and turning to the right and it's intellectually dishonest of you to elide the two.


----------



## A380 (Aug 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Ciao can mean hello or goodbye




Yep you are correct. Which one it means depends on context. Here’s another European language  nugget’ L'esprit de l'escalie‘ don’t mean you have a day to develop your zinging retorts; retorts what that there Pickman's model  got in with first BTW ( as he often does, I suspect he has some kind of algorithm running) .

Let’s see how ciao as translated to ‘hello’ works out;



Count Cuckula said:


> He's got nothing against young people. That's complete bollocks. He actually said in a previous vid that people should support the kids on these demos - but he was hoping it wouldn't be the pile of wank that it's turned out to be.
> 
> Hello for now.





Count Cuckula said:


> Anyway, much like this XR fortnite of protest has proved to be so far - this thread has proved to be a complete waste of time.
> 
> Hello



Oh yeah, works perfectly. It’s obvious now. I’ll certainly review your arguments with greater vigour.

Covfefe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> You keep arguing a straw man based on some notion I don't hold that labour are perfect and the tories aren't. I don't think that. I simply think that a Labour government wouldn't be _as bad as the Tories._ That's the best we can hope from this system, and said system ain't going anywhere anytime soon. I wish that were different, but until then it is a tool we can use. As such, as part of the struggle, we should use it to our advantage. Why? Because if we don't the Tories will.
> 
> This pablum about Corbyn is just irrelevant mate. No one is saying that, had he won, he'd have turned into Trotsky. The point is that he wouldn't have turned into Boris Johnson.
> 
> ...


There is no comparison he says in a post comparing Johnson and Corbyn


----------



## maomao (Aug 29, 2021)

Can Awesome Wells and Martin/Count Cuckula just shut the fuck up. There's a whole politics forum for that discussion. This a thread about Extinction Rebellion.


----------



## A380 (Aug 29, 2021)

maomao said:


> Can Awesome Wells and Martin/Count Cuckula just shut the fuck up. There's a whole politics forum for that discussion. This a thread about Extinction Rebellion.


But, but, he’s got a hat and everything…

Ciao


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Any Questions on Radio 4 had the question “are Extinction Rebellion extremists?” which is a talking point pushed by Policy Exchange who are funded by the fossil fuel industry. Just caught a bit of it and most answered that they were.

Really lazy of the BBC especially as these protests seem to have had very few arrests. Shouldn’t be surprised I guess as it’s an awful program.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Any Questions on Radio 4 had the question “are Extinction Rebellion extremists?” which is a talking point pushed by Policy Exchange who are funded by the fossil fuel industry. Just caught a bit of it and most answered that they were.
> 
> Really lazy of the BBC especially as these protests seem to have had very few arrests. Shouldn’t be surprised I guess as it’s an awful program.



200 arrests very few? What was that you were saying about lazy?


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 200 arrests very few?



Over a thousand on previous occasions so yes.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Way to avoid the actual point - unless you do agree with Policy Exchange that they are extremists.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Over a thousand on previous occasions so yes.


You're being really lazy and frankly stupid here in that there is no link between number of arrests at a protest and the 'extremism' of participants. Not to mention that you're not giving the actual context - was 1000 before a bigger or smaller proportion of those present than the 200 or so this time? In addition it's been a stated aim of xr in the past to clog the courts. What's to say the police have decided not to play along?


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're being really lazy and frankly stupid here in that there is no link between number of arrests at a protest and the 'extremism' of participants. Not to mention that you're not giving the actual context - was 1000 before a bigger or smaller proportion of those present than the 200 or so this time? In addition it's been a stated aim of xr in the past to clog the courts. What's to say the police have decided not to play along?


You’re (deliberately?) missing the point - why is the BBC discussing whether they’re extremists or not? It’s a stupid question. It’s just along the same line as discussing whether climate change is happening or not and playing into the status quo & those interested in keeping it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> You’re (deliberately?) missing the point - why is the BBC discussing whether they’re extremists or not? It’s a stupid question. It’s just along the same line as discussing whether climate change is happening or not and playing into the status quo & those interested in keeping it.


Perhaps you should reread your post 4182 where you suggest arrests can be a metric of a protest's extremism. I am in no way surprised by the BBC being shit, and it's very surprising you seem so exercised about it given the lamentable way the BBC has portrayed protest for decades.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps you should reread your post 4182 where you suggest arrests can be a metric of a protest's extremism. I am in no way surprised by the BBC being shit, and it's very surprising you seem so exercised about it given the way the BBC has portrayed protest for decades.


Ok - no idea what point you’re trying to make if any 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Ok - no idea what point you’re trying to make if any 🤷‍♂️




I am taking issue with your claim that the number of arrests is a metric of the extremism of an event.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Way to avoid the actual point - unless you do agree with Policy Exchange that they are extremists.


What is an extremist?


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I am taking issue with your claim that the number of arrests is a metric of the extremism of an event.



Usual forum crap then - deliberately miss the point and focus on disputing a small detail. Well done 👏


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What is an extremist?


Exactly - you’re getting it now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Usual forum crap then - deliberately miss the point and focus on disputing a small detail. Well done 👏


Given the actual grounds on which you dispute the notion xr are extremist is what you say are the low number of arrests it's not a small detail


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Exactly - you’re getting it now.


So what is your definition of an extremist?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 29, 2021)

It's really important we get to the bottom of this. We should all be grateful to Pickman's model for his work on this issue.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So what is your definition of an extremist?


It’s a stupid & pointless question. That’s the point. Discussing it is just a way of diverting from the actual issue - it’s a deliberate ploy of the oil & gas industry.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 29, 2021)

Yes O wise, enlightened, superior ones. I should not question or criticise anyone, especially not Extinction Rebellion or the great Holy Jezziah.

Me and Martin are just lowly, thicko anarchists who don't know anyfink.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> It’s a stupid & pointless question. That’s the point. Discussing it is just a way of diverting from the actual issue - it’s a deliberate ploy of the oil & gas industry.


Right. So your claim now is there is a conspiracy between the BBC and the oil and gas industry.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Right. So your claim now is there is a conspiracy between the BBC and the oil and gas industry.



No - but they are playing into their agenda as they used to by both-sides-ing climate change and always framing it as a debate.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> No - but they are playing into their agenda as they used to by both-sides-ing climate change and always framing it as a debate.


So it's not a deliberate ploy by the oil and gas industry but a natural consequence of BBC 'impartiality'. I wish you could keep your story straight from one post to the next.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So it's not a deliberate ploy by the oil and gas industry but a natural consequence of BBC 'impartiality'. I wish you could keep your story straight from one post to the next.


I think you’re being deliberately obtuse and unsure why 😐


----------



## maomao (Aug 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Yes O wise, enlightened, superior ones. I should not question or criticise anyone, especially not Extinction Rebellion or the great Holy Jezziah.
> 
> Me and Martin are just lowly, thicko anarchists who don't know anyfink.


Criticise who you fucking like. Would just be nice if you criticised ER on the ER thread and LP on one of the many LP threads.


----------



## YouSir (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So it's not a deliberate ploy by the oil and gas industry but a natural consequence of BBC 'impartiality'. I wish you could keep your story straight from one post to the next.



Why does this matter?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

YouSir said:


> Why does this matter?


Because we're told different things by edcraw. Is the bit on the bbc part of a deliberate campaign by the oil and gas industry or is it the BBC's 'impartiality' policy?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> I think you’re being deliberately obtuse and unsure why 😐


This has never happened before. Honest


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> I think you’re being deliberately obtuse and unsure why 😐


I think you're all over the shop and don't know why


----------



## YouSir (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Because we're told different things by edcraw. Is the bit on the bbc part of a deliberate campaign by the oil and gas industry or is it the BBC's 'impartiality' policy?



I struggle to see why what edcraw has to say matters tbh, but whatever works for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

YouSir said:


> I struggle to see why what edcraw has to say matters tbh, but whatever works for you.


We're on the same page


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> We're on the same page


 Fuck me - seems like you’re just being a twat for the sake of it. Have you got any views yourself?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 29, 2021)

Do I have to post a picture of Piers Corbyn now


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 29, 2021)

On XR being extremist. I didn't listen to Any Questions.

XR are Imo pretty well all over the place politically.

Strength of XR is that it can appeal to wide range of people. Due to this. The Beyond Politics mantra I keep getting from them. On other hand they will also say Capitalism is the problem  depending on the audience. 

Weakness is that when one looks at it closely one can have reservations. As Count Cuckula has.

At one moment its extremist. Wanting to use non violent direct action to bring government of the country to a halt and force it to bring in Peoples Assembly. As normal democratic politics will never deal with climate change. That is extremist. Not a criticism. Its what early XR say.

Another part is as in Lambeth having some talks with local Labour Councils about setting up Peoples Assemblies on local basis. My Council Lambeth has done this. Not that this politically wrong thing to do.

What I'm saying is that XR come across as radical anti authority at one moment. Then try to work with sympathetic sections of the ruling order when they can.

TBF I don't have a lot of problem with this.

As long as people can still critique particular aspects of what they are doing.

As  in Lambeth where XR appear to have got together with a particular group who are anti vaxxers. Only teuchter took up my post on this. 

Looking at the group they have got involved with and I'm concerned. It's anti vax stuff isn't just an aberration. It's how this group see anti racism. Which Imo is concerning. 

Rather than fixating on Labour Party might be idea to look at pros and cons of what XR are doing.

Some of it is very effective.  If hit and miss. Why to answer Count Cuckula question about the structures its Imo worth a go even if it doesn't work every time. It worked to stop news printing sites previously. I'm also not going to photograph people sticking themselves on the line for arrest and criticise individuals I photograph.


----------



## LDC (Aug 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Black Intellectuals, Vaccines & Stopping the Maangamizi: A Pan-Afrikan Reparatory Justice Critical Examination
> 
> 
> “You must not abandon discussion out of tact . . . There should be noconcession where there is a question of establishing a scientific truth . . .Remember we are focused on a quest for truth and no…
> ...




They are a dodgy as fuck group, the anti-vax stuff and more, XR should not be giving them any space for talking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Fuck me - seems like you’re just being a twat for the sake of it. Have you got any views yourself?


Yes, yes I do. And what's more I can expound them without veering all over the place as you do. Maybe I am being a twat for the sake of it. Much better than you, whose twattery is surely not by choice.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 29, 2021)

I heard a little bit of that prog on radio 4. The bit I heard I heard included a panellist saying something like "well I guess I have a different definition of extremist than some of you, because when I think of extremists I tend to think of people like the ones who bombed Kabul Airport last week, for example".

I agree. I think the idea that XR are extreme is preposterous.

The effects of climate change are extreme. XR are not at all. Sadly.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, yes I do. And what's more I can expound them



Please do?


----------



## LDC (Aug 29, 2021)

There's always been stuff like that about all sorts of groups in the media, I don't think it's anything to worry about really. On some level I think it's a good sign as it shows the group is in the popular consciousness and maybe even has some of the established order worried.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I heard a little bit of that prog on radio 4. The bit I heard I heard included a panellist saying something like "well I guess I have a different definition of extremist than some of you, because when I think of extremists I tend to think of people like the ones who bombed Kabul Airport last week, for example".
> 
> I agree. I think the idea that XR are extreme is preposterous.
> 
> The effects of climate change are extreme. XR are not at all. Sadly.


The definition of extremist has basically reduced to 'people the government doesn't like. With climate change xr are too moderate with their protest formulaic and frankly safe. Blocking parts of London doesn't threaten anything more than inconvenience and the repertoire xr use won't thrust climate change up the political agenda as it needs to be. The recent report on climate change which highlighted how fucked things are now dropped off the media agenda really quickly and the current rebellion hasn't mustered the column inches and media attention of previous waves of protest. 

Relying on the media to spread a political message or on the police and courts to help you achieve your policy aims seems really foolish: and I have no confidence that xr will raise their game. Their protests seem a useful safety valve to relieve pressure which might be targeted rather better.

So yeh I agree with you that xr aren't extreme, they're really very moderate


----------



## LDC (Aug 29, 2021)

I guess you could split whether someone is extreme into looking at their actions and their ideas separately (no idea if the R4 program mentioned did this). With XR they're really not with their activity as people have said, but I would say they arguably _are _extreme (or radical?) with some of what they're demanding.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I guess you could split whether someone is extreme into looking at their actions and their ideas separately (no idea if the R4 program mentioned did this). With XR they're really not with their activity as people have said, but I would say they arguably _are _extreme (or radical?) with some of what they're demanding.


I honestly don't know how serious they are with their demands: and it's by no means clear to me that they're left wing.


----------



## LDC (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I honestly don't know how serious they are with their demands: and it's by no means clear to me that they're left wing.



No, they do say they're neither, although the reality among people involved is more complex I'd have thought.

Their demand of net zero by 2025 is extreme I would say though.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 29, 2021)

"Is group X extremist?" is a great example of the sort of timewasting nonsense that I'd expect to see/hear on the BBC to be honest. All it ends up as is "what does extremist mean?" Why is anyone even asking this question without knowing the answer to that? (to fill airtime)


----------



## TopCat (Aug 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Yes O wise, enlightened, superior ones. I should not question or criticise anyone, especially not Extinction Rebellion or the great Holy Jezziah.
> 
> Me and Martin are just lowly, thicko anarchists who don't know anyfink.


Me and Martin. Twice now. Are you pals?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No, they do say they're neither, although the reality among people involved is more complex I'd have thought.
> 
> Their demand of net zero by 2025 is extreme I would say though.


Yeh I've seen that. There seems a lingering view among a lot of people that they're in some way socialist: their positioning themselves as they do does imo make them suspect as it opens the door for very dubious (ie RW) groups and individuals to achieve a hearing and influence. For me the choice ahead is anarchism/socialism or barbarism, yet they're trying to stick on the fence


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Me and Martin. Twice now. Are you pals?


Not sure Martin has many pals in the acg


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 29, 2021)

Bit weird to post up one of Martin’s videos and expect everyone to agree with it instantly without further comment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Bit weird to post up one of Martin’s videos and expect everyone to agree with it instantly without further comment.


I wouldn't expect people to agree with Martin right off anyway.


----------



## LDC (Aug 29, 2021)

Not listened to this yet, so no idea on how good (or not) it is, but it discusses the book that's been mentioned on this thread, and possible 'what next' steps for the climate struggles.





__





						Blow up pipelines? Tadzio Müller and Andreas Malm on what next for the climate movement
					

Two of the leading thinkers of the radical climate movement discuss climate disaster, fossil capitalism and change.




					blogs.taz.de
				




E2A: Listened to half of this last night and there's some interesting things talked about, especially the role of workers and unions in maybe being reactionary towards any climate change stuff if it impacts their industries/jobs (big subject worthy of some sensible discussion I think). Both speakers are quite annoying though!


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Aug 29, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> They are a dodgy as fuck group, the anti-vax stuff and more, XR should not be giving them any space for talking.


They make a big thing of spelling Africa as Afrika. Because imperialists changed the spelling. That may seem trivial, but it's not really. It shows that their history and analysis are not to be trusted, even if they are sometimes on the ball. Their anti vax stuff also seems to rely on the 'evidence' of some bloke in Zambia who no-one else has ever heard of. Not very rigorous thinking.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model still hasn't expounded.

Seems to me that if martin-of-youtube is not Count Cuckula , then he is probably some other urban75 user who is always complaining about everyone else doing things wrong, and failing to expound.

I don't want to point any fingers but I've got my suspicions who he could be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Pickman's model still hasn't expounded.
> 
> Seems to me that if martin-of-youtube is not Count Cuckula , then he is probably some other urban75 user who is always complaining about everyone else doing things wrong, and failing to expound.
> 
> I don't want to point any fingers but I've got my suspicions who he could be.


You're always complaining about people doing things wrong and you've not shared your views of xr on this thread.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 29, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> There's always been stuff like that about all sorts of groups in the media, I don't think it's anything to worry about really. On some level I think it's a good sign as it shows the group is in the popular consciousness and maybe even has some of the established order worried.



the main benefit of XR would seem to be getting young uns interested in protest judging by the awareness in my kids. it's not a popular revolution by any means  but better than nothing - at the very least, it has the schoolies generation talking about things


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Aug 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Pickman's model still hasn't expounded.
> 
> Seems to me that if martin-of-youtube is not Count Cuckula , then he is probably some other urban75 user who is always complaining about everyone else doing things wrong, and failing to expound.
> 
> I don't want to point any fingers but I've got my suspicions who he could be.


He definitely isn’t me, constable.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're always complaining about people doing things wrong and you've not shared your views of xr on this thread.


I've not complained about XR doing things wrong, so have no duty to say what should be happening instead. Nor have I denied that i am that YouTube guy.

It's noted that you also do not deny it.

And it's noted that you have not solved climate change.


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> And it's noted that you have not solved climate change.


while you’re at it Pickman's model  can you also solve the Middle East, the JFK assassination conspiracy and find Shergar


----------



## teuchter (Aug 29, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> while you’re at it Pickman's model  can you also solve the Middle East, the JFK assassination conspiracy and find Shergar


If he could re-allocate some of his time to solving these issues instead of posting on urban75 I feel confident the world would be a better place.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 30, 2021)

teuchter said:


> If he could re-allocate some of his time to solving these issues instead of posting on urban75 I feel confident the world would be a better place.


You have more authority on a thread about shopping trollies .


----------



## Serene (Aug 30, 2021)

I read an interesting article in one of the funny papers today, which for once was a good read. I enjoyed this part, which for me, clarified what it is about. Often the funny papers dont tell you what it is all about, and so you remain uneducated about the background of the story. Here is copy and paste of it. It is about the protest at the Science Museum, and about Shell Oil. The last sentence of it in particular is very important. QUOTE

Dr Charlie Gardner, an associate senior lecturer in conservation science at the University of Kent, and a member of Scientists for Extinction Rebellion, said: 'Shell, an oil company, is a major driver of the climate emergency.

'We find it unacceptable that a scientific institution, a great cultural institution such as the Science Museum, should be taking money, dirty money, from an oil company.

'Oil companies have invested heavily over the last three decades in undermining public confidence in science and it's the reason why there are still, to this day, people that doubt or deny the existence of climate change.

'Oil companies have an anti-science agenda and yet the Science Museum is taking their money.

'The fact that Shell are able to sponsor this exhibition allows them to paint themselves as part of the solution to climate change, whereas they are, of course, at the heart of the problem.'

UNQUOTE.

Wonderful, thanks for some clear background on it.


----------



## Flavour (Aug 30, 2021)

Anyway it is very easy to tell the difference between Martina and Count Cuckula because one of them is old and the other is a sixth former


----------



## mauvais (Aug 30, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Van used to block the road in Covent garden. Four people attached to the van.View attachment 284913View attachment 284914View attachment 284915View attachment 284916


Maybe it was on the day (it was taxed) but this van isn't taxed or insured.


----------



## hitmouse (Aug 30, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Anyway it is very easy to tell the difference between Martina and Count Cuckula because one of them is old and the other is a sixth former


But does CC wear a hat while posting?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Thought they were more targeting financial stuff rather than traffic etc. this time?


Loads of cops in the city standing round like muppets


----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 30, 2021)

Shitloads of TSG , bears in the air and legions of transport OSU virtually closed London Bridge as about 50 obviously dangerous threat to society peaceniks hold up a few banners. Nice bit of BH o/t and maybe the chance to get the boot into a pensioner later


----------



## ddraig (Aug 30, 2021)

Intercepted the structures before going up


----------



## kev42 (Aug 30, 2021)

Tower Bridge now has a Pink Caravan parked up on it, and is closed! And there's another pop-up blockade at Mansell Street, just north of TB. Live coverage on the XR YouTube channel.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 31, 2021)

They do pick their targets don’t they


----------



## Elpenor (Aug 31, 2021)

What’s Hulk Hogan done to offend them anyway?


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 31, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> They do pick their targets don’t they




Yes. WWF are awful, and therefore a good target.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 31, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Shitloads of TSG , bears in the air and legions of transport OSU virtually closed London Bridge as about 50 obviously dangerous threat to society peaceniks hold up a few banners. Nice bit of BH o/t and maybe the chance to get the boot into a pensioner later



Sorry in advance in case I'm being dense but what is OSU in this context?


----------



## glitch hiker (Aug 31, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> What’s Hulk Hogan done to offend them anyway?


That shit never gets old


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Sorry in advance in case I'm being dense but what is OSU in this context?


Reckon it's operational support unit


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Reckon it's operational support unit



Ah! Yes that would make sense. Ta.


----------



## A380 (Aug 31, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Sorry in advance in case I'm being dense but what is OSU in this context?


They might mean PSU -police support unit 1 3 and 18 normally level 2 ( i.e. they have other day jobs and four days training a year)

Or Transport BCU BCU being the ‘new’  name for divisions or boroughs in the met. Transport BCU is that part of the Met ( not BTP) that is funded by and supports the non tube bits of TFL, mostly busses, taxi’s and mini cabs.

OSUs used to be operational support units. But that tended to date from before firearms was a full time role.  They did firearms, search and some times surge policing. A bit like the met TSG.


----------



## BillRiver (Aug 31, 2021)

A380 said:


> They might mean PSU -police support unit 1 3 and 18 normally level 2 ( i.e. they have other day jobs and four days training a year)
> 
> Or Transport BCU BCU being the ‘new’  name for divisions or boroughs in the met. Transport BCU is that part of the Met ( not BTP) that is funded by and supports the non tube bits of TFL, mostly busses, taxi’s and mini cabs.
> 
> OSUs used to be operational support units. But that tended to date from before firearms was a full time role.  They did firearms, search and done times surge policing. A bit like the met TSG.



Yep.

They wrote OSU, and my brain temporarily froze, hence me asking.

If they had written PSU or BCU I'd probably not have asked.


----------



## BristolEcho (Aug 31, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Yes. WWF are awful, and therefore a good target.


Not doubting this but wondered if you could elaborate? I don't know much about them beyond the obvious.


----------



## LDC (Aug 31, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Yes. WWF are awful, and therefore a good target.



Yeah they're shit. But to what end is the point of targeting them on climate change? XR won't stop them doing anything, so it's purely symbolic and media message related, and I suspect it'll just confuse things and look weird to many people. Happy to be convinced otherwise, but it does smack of the Four Lions 'bomb the mosque' sketch a bit to me.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 31, 2021)

Seems to be connected to this: WTF WWF



> 1- STOP THE HARM:
> Immediately stop dispossessing indigenous and local communities of their land. Cease any collaboration or support to organisations that evict Indigenous and local communities.
> 
> 2- GROUND CONSERVATION IN JUSTICE:
> ...


----------



## edcraw (Aug 31, 2021)

From this I can see they have a point. There’s little point in trying to protect endangered wildlife if you aren’t dealing with the climate emergency.







__





						led by the same ecosystem destroyers – WTF WWF
					






					www.wtfwwf.org


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 31, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Seems to be connected to this: WTF WWF



What’s that got to do with a climate emergency? If extinction rebellion can’t think of a better target than WWF then maybe it’s not an emergency? Or maybe they’re just really counterproductively bad at selecting targets, which we know they are from past experience.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 31, 2021)

XR is not just about climate change.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 31, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> What’s that got to do with a climate emergency? If extinction rebellion can’t think of a better target than WWF then maybe it’s not an emergency? Or maybe they’re just really counterproductively bad at selecting targets, which we know they are from past experience.



When their main donors are Tesco & Coca-Cola it seems like one big greenwash. Partnering with businesses

And the biggest threat to endangered wildlife is obviously climate change.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 31, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> XR is not just about climate change.



I know, which is a shame, as we could do with a group that was and who could actually get widespread support.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Aug 31, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I know, which is a shame, as we could do with a group that was and who could actually get widespread support.


Well you can't slag them for doing something not specifically about climate change and at the same time say you know that isn't their only focus. I mean come on.


----------



## platinumsage (Aug 31, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well you can't slag them for doing something not specifically about climate change and at the same time say you know that isn't their only focus. I mean come on.



Eh? Those two positions are perfectly compatible.


----------



## edcraw (Aug 31, 2021)

Anyway it seems to have been a very few people involved in this with LBC & the Daily Mail seeming to be the only ones reporting it.



The way XR is set up means you’ll get people carrying out fringe actions like Canning Town & this but you’re playing into certain right wing types if you discredit the whole organisation based on these.

EDIT: other XR branches seem to be openly supporting WWF.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 31, 2021)

I am super impressed with XR this Rebellion. 9 days and still keeping on keeping on. Police are obviously frustrated. Fair play and I wish I could have joined them.


----------



## souljacker (Aug 31, 2021)

Where is the WWF building? There were loads of xr on the south side of the river today, across from the tower. I assumed they were the bridge lot from yesterday trying to have another go. Then, around 12.30, loads of cops appeared at London bridge and immediately closed it but I couldn't see any protestors. Lots of xr with their kids round by bank though.

They certainly seemed to have the old bill spooked. There was a helicopter over the city for most of the day.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 31, 2021)

Police wield batons during XR’s London Bridge bus blockade
					

Move on ninth day of latest protest campaign appears to mark change in use of force against the group




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## edcraw (Aug 31, 2021)

souljacker said:


> Where is the WWF building?



Woking apparently


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Bit weird to post up one of Martin’s videos and expect everyone to agree with it instantly without further comment.


Which is not what I did


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

I can't say that myself and Martin are close enough to actually be friends.

But I have met the guy a number of times.

And I'll say this about him - he's in no way arrogant and condescending like certain people on here.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 31, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> it's purely symbolic


This whole thing is purely symbolic. I guess that's the problem really.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 1, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> This whole thing is purely symbolic. I guess that's the problem really.



I remember when climate change protesters used to do stuff like this:









						Coal train ambushed near power station in climate change protest
					

More than 30 campaigners shovel coal train's contents on to the only line into the Drax plant




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 1, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've always wondered how those 'locked-on' cope, so a big shout-out to C-4 News for allowing me to sleep tonight, by confirming they are wearing nappies.



Maybe that’s why the Tories are now proposing a nappy tax.


----------



## LDC (Sep 1, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> This whole thing is purely symbolic. I guess that's the problem really.



Not sure it's that simple, symbolism has its place; pickets for example are sometimes symbolic (as are many strikes nowadays) so I do think it's OK for some of that. And plenty of things look symbolic but also have real world measureable impacts. What I wonder is how much 'symbolic' stuff can be done before it starts to feel pointless for the participants and supporters and people slowly drift off. Same with blocking roads, it has a limited point and life, and public sympathy will wane past a certain point I think.

There's also a slight danger people get a bit fixed on the reaction of the police as well, and mistake the cops reactions as being related to the effectiveness of the action, and then the thing gets diverted into being about what happens 'in the street' rather than the wider impact.

E2A: Something on R4 'More or Less' (I know, shoot me now...) just now about the huge costs for policing XR, whch is a good reminder/point that even if things _look_ purely symbolic, they do often have impacts you can't easily see or judge such as the policing costs mentioned.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 4, 2021)

Protest today:


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not sure it's that simple, symbolism has its place; pickets for example are sometimes symbolic (as are many strikes nowadays) so I do think it's OK for some of that. And plenty of things look symbolic but also have real world measureable impacts. What I wonder is how much 'symbolic' stuff can be done before it starts to feel pointless for the participants and supporters and people slowly drift off. Same with blocking roads, it has a limited point and life, and public sympathy will wane past a certain point I think.
> 
> There's also a slight danger people get a bit fixed on the reaction of the police as well, and mistake the cops reactions as being related to the effectiveness of the action, and then the thing gets diverted into being about what happens 'in the street' rather than the wider impact.
> 
> E2A: Something on R4 'More or Less' (I know, shoot me now...) just now about the huge costs for policing XR, whch is a good reminder/point that even if things _look_ purely symbolic, they do often have impacts you can't easily see or judge such as the policing costs mentioned.


The policing costs are a choice not a necessity


----------



## andysays (Sep 4, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah they're shit. But to what end is the point of targeting them on climate change? XR won't stop them doing anything, so *it's purely symbolic and media message related*, and I suspect it'll just confuse things and look weird to many people. Happy to be convinced otherwise, but it does smack of the Four Lions 'bomb the mosque' sketch a bit to me.


On a wider point, beyond the particular targeting of WWF: 

The whole XR thing appears to me to be purely symbolic and media message related.

None of their actions are realistically about stopping climate change, which is too wide reaching a goal for simple physical actions to really make a difference, unlike say, picketing a workplace or preventing road building where those physical actions can potentially achieve a specific goal.

As has been mentioned, possibly on another thread, real effective action to stop climate change has to involve a range of activities, including collective action by workers in particular industries.

This sort of thing is way beyond the scope of what a group like XR can ever hope to do, IMO, which isn't so much a criticism of their actions, as a criticism of their apparent inability to see the limitations of those actions and move beyond them.

Maybe some of the people involved will start to recognise this and to organise in different ways, and that could certainly be a positive, but simply getting more people to take part in this sort of spectacular protest doesn't seem that productive, unfortunately


----------



## LDC (Sep 4, 2021)

andysays said:


> As has been mentioned, possibly on another thread, real effective action to stop climate change has to involve a range of activities, including collective action by workers in particular industries.
> 
> This sort of thing is way beyond the scope of what a group like XR can ever hope to do, IMO, which isn't so much a criticism of their actions, as a criticism of their apparent inability to see the limitations of those actions and move beyond them.
> 
> Maybe some of the people involved will start to recognise this and to organise in different ways, and that could certainly be a positive, but simply getting more people to take part in this sort of spectacular protest doesn't seem that productive, unfortunately



That XR healthcare stuff is interesting and potentially very exciting, but...

What you say about the workers stuff is basically right, and/but it's also the traditional mating call of the left (inc. lots of anarchists) when stuff like XR happens so often gets dismissed as old lefties bleating.

I think what needs talking about as it gets missed is not that it's just workers that need to 'be involved' (as they are, both with all the XR actions and then these specific worker ones like above) but it's the terrain/type of stuff that they then do, which basically need to be _in and around _their work as that's the thing that can impact capital the most, not dragging them out of work to do actions like this.

Having a bunch of people from X workplace/worker type doing a die-in outside an office of something doesn't change the impact that much whoever does it, they're doing it as individuals (even with the messaging). Having them refuse to work or disrupt their workplace for the climate struggle would be highly relevant, and also much more repeatable and so potentially spread...

Caveat; know this is much simpler to say than do.


----------



## LDC (Sep 7, 2021)

Edited, needs own thread.









						New UK fossil fuel extraction projects/proposed projects news
					

Not a catchy title, but think we need this thread.  Public inquiry for the proposed coal field in Cumbria starts today.  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/07/public-inquiry-begins-into-plans-for-new-coalmine-in-cumbria




					www.urban75.net


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 11, 2021)

Well I'm sure this won't go down well, but I'm actually really uncomfortable with the fact that XR now appear to be beyond any kind of real criticism, especially as what they have done doesn't seem to be effective.  No one should be beyond criticism and I'd say the criticisms of XR are valid - they are overwhelmingly white, privileged, middle class and seem to be failing to be get suffcient support from the wider public/working class and get their message across. They don't seem to be doing truly meaningful, effective things and, as an organisation, are not anti-capitalist or revolutionary.

 It may not be fashionable to say it, but I don't think that doing anything is better than doing nothing - action must be meaningful and effective. To which people's reply is always- well what are you doing? As if it's completely fair to compare the org I'm in with one such as XR - which has more significant numbers, resources and money than the org I'm in - which is not comprised mainly of people with class privilege who can afford to camp out or whatever for days on end and pay their bail and legal fees if they get arrested, aswell as the bail etc for others (and ofcourse, it's completely irrational and unfair to say that I, as an individual, could have any real impact on my own aswell). XR just appear to be constantly squandering any opportunities they might have - to not be able to criticise that is a dangerous mistake. And it is completely understandble if people don't want to get involved with such a flawed org/movement.


----------



## andysays (Sep 11, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well I'm sure this won't go down well, but I'm actually really uncomfortable with the fact that XR now appear to be beyond any kind of real criticism, especially as what they have done doesn't seem to be effective.  No one should be beyond criticism and I'd say the criticisms of XR are valid - they are overwhelmingly white, privileged, middle class and seem to be failing to be get suffcient support from the wider public/working class and get their message across. They don't seem to be doing truly meaningful, effective things and, as an organisation, are not anti-capitalist or revolutionary.
> 
> It may not be fashionable to say it, but I don't think that doing anything is better than doing nothing - action must be meaningful and effective. To which people's reply is always- well what are you doing? As if it's completely fair to compare the org I'm in with one such as XR - which has more significant numbers, resources and money than the org I'm in - which is not comprised mainly of people with class privilege who can afford to camp out or whatever for days on end and pay their bail and legal fees if they get arrested, aswell as the bail etc for others (and ofcourse, it's completely irrational and unfair to say that I, as an individual, could have any real impact on my own aswell). XR just appear to be constantly squandering any opportunities they might have - to not be able to criticise that is a dangerous mistake. And it is completely understandble if people don't want to get involved with such a flawed org/movement.


Where on earth do you get the idea that XR are beyond any criticism?

Have you actually read the various comments on this thread - on this very page - which are critical of them in various ways?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2021)

andysays said:


> Where on earth do you get the idea that XR are beyond any criticism?
> 
> Have you actually read the various comments on this thread - on this very page - which are critical of them in various ways?


Are you sure the criticisms on this thread pass the count cuckula threshold of real criticism?


----------



## A380 (Sep 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The policing costs are a choice not a necessity


And almost entirely opportunity costs and not cashable.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 11, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well I'm sure this won't go down well, but I'm actually really uncomfortable with the fact that XR now appear to be beyond any kind of real criticism, especially as what they have done doesn't seem to be effective.  No one should be beyond criticism and I'd say the criticisms of XR are valid - they are overwhelmingly white, privileged, middle class and seem to be failing to be get suffcient support from the wider public/working class and get their message across. They don't seem to be doing truly meaningful, effective things and, as an organisation, are not anti-capitalist or revolutionary.
> 
> It may not be fashionable to say it, but I don't think that doing anything is better than doing nothing - action must be meaningful and effective. To which people's reply is always- well what are you doing? As if it's completely fair to compare the org I'm in with one such as XR - which has more significant numbers, resources and money than the org I'm in - which is not comprised mainly of people with class privilege who can afford to camp out or whatever for days on end and pay their bail and legal fees if they get arrested, aswell as the bail etc for others (and ofcourse, it's completely irrational and unfair to say that I, as an individual, could have any real impact on my own aswell). XR just appear to be constantly squandering any opportunities they might have - to not be able to criticise that is a dangerous mistake. And it is completely understandble if people don't want to get involved with such a flawed org/movement.


One of the good things about XR is it's strategy for getting numbers out.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 11, 2021)

andysays said:


> Where on earth do you get the idea that XR are beyond any criticism?
> 
> Have you actually read the various comments on this thread - on this very page - which are critical of them in various ways?


Well all I know is that I shared a brief video containing valid criticisms of XR and an unpleasant pile-on ensued.


----------



## andysays (Sep 11, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Well all I know is that I shared a brief video containing valid criticisms of XR and an unpleasant pile-on ensued.


I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, but criticism of your posting of a video critical of XR doesn't mean XR is beyond any criticism, it just means some people were critical of the form your criticism took.


----------



## newme (Sep 11, 2021)

Speaking from Cornwall, most would say who? Some might say didn't they screw uptraffic or something? Rest would look baffled, people don't have time to care, or interest. Us stock market is fucked soon, who noticed? Probably barely anyone, same as most 'fringe' activities.


----------



## A380 (Sep 11, 2021)

andysays said:


> I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, but criticism of your posting of a video critical of XR doesn't mean XR is beyond any criticism, it just means some people were critical of the form your criticism took.


On account of the form the video’s criticism took being wide open to criticism  because it was poor in content and argument and shit in delivery. Even if it was by a mate of yours.


----------



## andysays (Sep 11, 2021)

A380 said:


> On account of the form the video’s criticism took being wide open to criticism  because it was poor in content and argument and shit in delivery. Even if it was by a mate of yours.


I think you may have meant to quote Count Cuckula rather than me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2021)

A380 said:


> On account of the form the video’s criticism took being wide open to criticism  because it was poor in content and argument and shit in delivery. Even if it was by a mate of yours.


i think martin is probably fortunate enough never to have met the count


----------



## A380 (Sep 11, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think you may have meant to quote Count Cuckula rather than me.


I did indeed.


----------



## Ted Striker (Sep 13, 2021)

Imagine being in a rush, or even on time to get to the airport, with all the excitement of a holiday years in the planning...months of anticipation after a hellish couple of years...weeks of uncertainty as to what whim Boris will shut something down...and days jumping through hoops and paying through the nose to get all your tests done....

...And these lot block your path to the airport (they are at the Heathrow junction of the M25). Makes me want to go full Spymaster tbh.



I'd be amazed if this wasn't some sort of an undercover infiltrator organising it to ensure public opinion is against them


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 13, 2021)

Ted Striker said:


> Imagine being in a rush, or even on time to get to the airport, with all the excitement of a holiday years in the planning...months of anticipation after a hellish couple of years...weeks of uncertainty as to what whim Boris will shut something down...and days jumping through hoops and paying through the nose to get all your tests done....
> 
> ...And these lot block your path to the airport (they are at the Heathrow junction of the M25). Makes me want to go full Spymaster tbh.
> 
> ...



They should have taken the tube or Heathrow express obvs


----------



## LDC (Sep 13, 2021)

'Insulate Britain', is that really an XR spin-off?


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## brogdale (Sep 13, 2021)

Kayak fan having none of it.


----------



## maomao (Sep 13, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 'Insulate Britain', is that really an XR spin-off?


It's not actually a terrible angle to take. Take one issue that could significantly reduce UK emissions, and improve quality of life particularly for a lot of elderly and vulnerable people, and campaign hard on that. But even I will admit that this comes over as totally nuts. An issue better suited to the posh lobbying end of campaigning than the sitting in the road end. I'm normally happy for them to hold up as many people as they can but they could have had a better message about something vaguely connected to roads.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 'Insulate Britain', is that really an XR spin-off?


Yep, another brain child of Hallam's


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## Red Sky (Sep 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They should have taken the tube or Heathrow express obvs


Or not flown at all. Fuck 'em


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 13, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> 'Insulate Britain', is that really an XR spin-off?


As opposed to Insular Britain, which is a new GB News show.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2021)

Hallam is one fucking loon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Hallam is one fucking loon.


He's given it the large about how he's studied protest tactics but I don't know of any campaign he's been involved in that won


----------



## LDC (Sep 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He's given it the large about how he's studied protest tactics but I don't know of any campaign he's been involved in that won



Depending a bit on what you mean by both 'campaign' and 'won' most can be said to have failed can't they, although there was a string of animal rights ones in the late '90s early '00s that won wasn't there? Wasn't Hallam a small organic farmer before this, and then before that think his background was co-ops more than direct action.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Depending a bit on what you mean by both 'campaign' and 'won' most can be said to have failed can't they, although there was a string of animal rights ones in the late '90s early '00s that won wasn't there? Wasn't Hallam a small organic farmer before this, and then before that think his background was co-ops more than direct action.


So you don't know of any either


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## A380 (Sep 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Depending a bit on what you mean by both 'campaign' and 'won' most can be said to have failed can't they, although there was a string of animal rights ones in the late '90s early '00s that won wasn't there? Wasn't Hallam a small organic farmer before this, and then before that think his background was co-ops more than direct action.



Just off the top of my head. 

Brent Spa
The plan to build four ring motorways round London- instead of the one and a half we have.
Wing London Airport

Three significant wins off the top of my head. I know some elements of the left prefer defiant defeats but important to remember victories. I’m sure someone will be along to claim none of the above were victories for the protesters…


----------



## Flavour (Sep 14, 2021)

i think airports are legitimate targets tbh. can't create disruption to capital without inconveniencing normal people. what sort of action could possibly disrupt capital without inconveniencing people? power stations for example, the fossil-fuel-burning variety are the most legitimate targets that come to mind: should we not do that for fear of inconveniencing the working class people who work at the power station, and the massive disruption to people everywhere if the power station shuts down and the leccy goes off?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> i think airports are legitimate targets tbh. can't create disruption to capital without inconveniencing normal people. what sort of action could possibly disrupt capital without inconveniencing people? power stations for example, the fossil-fuel-burning variety are the most legitimate targets that come to mind: should we not do that for fear of inconveniencing the working class people who work at the power station, and the massive disruption to people everywhere if the power station shuts down and the leccy goes off?


Disrupting MPs would be top of my list


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## TopCat (Sep 14, 2021)

You could always target private airfields but no let’s block people going on holiday.


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## Flavour (Sep 14, 2021)

Private airfields are good too but there'll be days they won't have any flights at all so fairly inconsequential action I think. And people going on holiday don't automatically earn my sympathy because they've toiled all year or whatever. In the UK around 15% of the population takes around 70% of the flights and quite frankly they can get fucked.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Private airfields are good too but there'll be days they won't have any flights at all so fairly inconsequential action I think. And people going on holiday don't automatically earn my sympathy because they've toiled all year or whatever. In the UK around 15% of the population takes around 70% of the flights and quite frankly they can get fucked.


But they haven’t targeted the wealthy via private airfields just mass transit. I would pick them up and throw them in the nearest ditch if they hindered my holiday.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 14, 2021)

Well, it seems to have worked to get the name of their group publicity.









						Insulate Britain - Insulate Britain
					

Humanity is at a pivotal crossroads: accelerated human-caused global heating is threatening to destroy human civilisation unless urgent action is taken to rapidly reduce our greenhouse gas emissions (GHG). The science is not disputed and now is the time to act. Improving the quality of our homes...




					www.insulatebritain.com
				




Not sure if they are XR though.


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## A380 (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You could always target private airfields but no let’s block people going on holiday.


 The biggest private jet airfield is Luton so that would be hard. Have a go at Farnbourgh, especially as they just stole stupid amounts of air space.

Targeting GA airfield ms is just going to inconvenience a load of middle aged and elderly blokes called Trevor who’s hobby used aircraft that gave up their embedded carbon costs in 1969 and use the same amount of fuel every year for the whole UK as one 30  minute rush hour Lane closure on the M25…


----------



## souljacker (Sep 14, 2021)

A380 said:


> Have a go at Farnbourgh, especially as they just stole stupid amounts of air space.


You'd probably get shot by BAE mercenaries though.

They should have had a go at City Airport. That doesn't get much holiday traffic.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 14, 2021)

souljacker said:


> You'd probably get shot by BAE mercenaries though.
> 
> They should have had a go at City Airport. That doesn't get much holiday traffic.


It has quite a few flights serving weekend minibreak destinations


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Well, it seems to have worked to get the name of their group publicity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what the angel of the north has to do with it


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I would pick them up and throw them in the nearest ditch if they hindered my holiday.


It's hard to know what you'd do in a situation like that but I reckon I'd have pissed all over them first, then escalate as necessary.


----------



## LDC (Sep 14, 2021)

Still needs a bigger picture strategy than targeting airports/power stations/whatever doesn't it? None of things do much themselves; they either make the government take notice (and then hopefully action), bring the attention into the media/people's minds, and/or build a social movement for people to take action themselves and maybe then pressure or force the government to do likewise.

I'd argue the second is redundant at this point in time, which leaves you with 2 options; take action to force the government to do something, or try and build a movement that can force action itself with or without the government. I think it's possible (and ideal) to do both, but things like the M25 blockade force the government to the detriment of a wider social movement imo. The logical end point of that kind of action is some type of terrorism where you see yourselves and the government as the only agents of change and you just do things that create the biggest/worst problem for the State to deal with and then hopefully it becomes untenable for them to keep doing whatever it is you want them to stop. Shutting down power stations fits that model (without the terror bit obviously) I think.

Isn't one of the (many) complexities with climate stuff is that it's taking tactics (blockades and site invasions for example) from other campaigns like anti-roads or oil/coal extraction stuff that was about stopping something at the point of the action (construction or mining) and the disruption itself was almost a side effect, and then transplanting them to a format where the action itself becomes a spectacle that doesn't directly impact anything itself at the time it's done?

Another tricky thing as you can see from this thread is lots of people are going to be actively resisting some of the changes that need to happen when they're confronted with actions like this M25 one. How does that get dealt with on a wider level? (As in I don't mean just facing angry drivers.) At the very least I think actions that look like they're blaming individual people (stopping commercial flights) or ones that have a tangential relation to what you're asking for (like blocking the M25 thing about insulating homes) need to be avoided.

E2A: Happy to be ripped apart on this, thinking out loud rather than 100% this is what I think/know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Still needs a bigger picture strategy than targeting airports/power stations/whatever doesn't it? None of things do much themselves; they either make the government take notice (and then hopefully action), bring the attention into the media/people's minds, and/or build a social movement for people to take action themselves and maybe then pressure or force the government to do likewise.
> 
> I'd argue the second is redundant at this point in time, which leaves you with 2 options; take action to force the government to do something, or try and build a movement that can force action itself with or without the government. I think it's possible (and ideal) to do both, but things like the M25 blockade force the government to the detriment of a wider social movement imo. The logical end point of that kind of action is some type of terrorism where you see yourselves and the government as the only agents of change and you just do things that create the biggest/worst problem for the State to deal with and then hopefully it becomes untenable for them to keep doing whatever it is you want them to stop. Shutting down power stations fits that model (without the terror bit obviously) I think.
> 
> ...


terrorism pretty much by definition suggests that the government can be forced to act by the population. the use of political violence often has public opinion as its target


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 14, 2021)

Ted Striker said:


> Imagine being in a rush, or even on time to get to the airport, with all the excitement of a holiday years in the planning...months of anticipation after a hellish couple of years...weeks of uncertainty as to what whim Boris will shut something down...and days jumping through hoops and paying through the nose to get all your tests done....
> 
> ...And these lot block your path to the airport (they are at the Heathrow junction of the M25). Makes me want to go full Spymaster tbh.
> 
> ...




that the way out of the airport not the way in


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But they haven’t targeted the wealthy via private airfields just mass transit. I would pick them up and throw them in the nearest ditch if they hindered my holiday





TopCat said:


> But they haven’t targeted the wealthy via private airfields just mass transit. I would pick them up and throw them in the nearest ditch if they hindered my holiday.


Would you cross a picket line to go on holiday?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 14, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Would you cross a picket line to go on holiday?


I would sooner eat my own leg than cross a picket line.


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## Red Sky (Sep 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I would sooner eat my own leg than cross a picket line.


Same thing then innit?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 14, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Same thing then innit?


No.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 15, 2021)

M25 protests: Activists return to Hertfordshire, Surrey and Kent
					

Police arrest 71 people as activists disrupt motorway traffic in Hertfordshire, Surrey and Kent.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Irritate Insulate Britain are at it again. Maybe they have shares in Celotex?


----------



## YouSir (Sep 15, 2021)

Local stickers and posters aside I never seem to see anything beyond the big, headline protests and actions from XR or the like. Assume those loosely under the banner are active in their communities too but they don't do a great job of promoting that, do they?


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## Red Sky (Sep 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> No.


Go on....


----------



## Flavour (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Isn't one of the (many) complexities with climate stuff is that it's taking tactics (blockades and site invasions for example) from other campaigns like anti-roads or oil/coal extraction stuff that was about stopping something at the point of the action (construction or mining) and the disruption itself was almost a side effect, and then transplanting them to a format where the action itself becomes a spectacle that doesn't directly impact anything itself at the time it's done?
> 
> Another tricky thing as you can see from this thread is lots of people are going to be actively resisting some of the changes that need to happen when they're confronted with actions like this M25 one. How does that get dealt with on a wider level? (As in I don't mean just facing angry drivers.) At the very least I think actions that look like they're blaming individual people (stopping commercial flights) or ones that have a tangential relation to what you're asking for (like blocking the M25 thing about insulating homes) need to be avoided.
> 
> E2A: Happy to be ripped apart on this, thinking out loud rather than 100% this is what I think/know.



I totally agree re: the disruption being a side effect. The target is to shut down infrastructure that creates lots of emissions, directly, be it airports, power stations, coal mines, car factories, whatever. The disruption is a necessary but unfortunate side effect that will certainly not enamor many people to the cause, but so what? You don't need to win everybody over. There are people on this thread who'd have been pissed with (or literally pissed on) the suffragettes for making them late for work. Fuck 'em. There's a bigger picture.


----------



## LDC (Sep 15, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I totally agree re: the disruption being a side effect. The target is to shut down infrastructure that creates lots of emissions, directly, be it airports, power stations, coal mines, car factories, whatever. The disruption is a necessary but unfortunate side effect that will certainly not enamor many people to the cause, but so what? You don't need to win everybody over. There are people on this thread who'd have been pissed with (or literally pissed on) the suffragettes for making them late for work. Fuck 'em. There's a bigger picture.



Is it really the point to directly stop emissions at the time of the action itself though? It clearly isn't the point of the M25 stuff, nor for most of XR stuff so far from what I can see. Even power station stuff isn't likely to lower emissions at the time of the action, even if (and it's a big if) the power station is operationally impacted the grid adapts and supply continues from elsewhere - emissions aren't stopped, they might even be increased tbh. The point would be to lower or halt emissions longer term through forcing social and political change surely? I think the big weak point now (for them) is stopping any new emissions from starting, so not allowing any new fossil fuel developments.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it really the point to directly stop emissions at the time of the action itself though? It clearly isn't the point of the M25 stuff, nor for most of XR stuff so far from what I can see. Even power station stuff isn't likely to lower emissions at the time of the action, even if (and it's a big if) the power station is operationally impacted the grid adapts and supply continues from elsewhere - emissions aren't stopped, they might even be increased tbh. The point would be to lower or halt emissions longer term through forcing social and political change surely? I think the big weak point now (for them) is stopping any new emissions from starting, so not allowing any new fossil fuel developments.


The amount of hot air they have prompted is likely to be their longest lasting legacy


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The amount of hot air they have prompted is likely to be their longest lasting legacy


Think there was more emanating from the park bench you were standing around on Saturday


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it really the point to directly stop emissions at the time of the action itself though? It clearly isn't the point of the M25 stuff, nor for most of XR stuff so far from what I can see. Even power station stuff isn't likely to lower emissions at the time of the action, even if (and it's a big if) the power station is operationally impacted the grid adapts and supply continues from elsewhere - emissions aren't stopped, they might even be increased tbh. The point would be to lower or halt emissions longer term through forcing social and political change surely? I think the big weak point now (for them) is stopping any new emissions from starting, so not allowing any new fossil fuel developments.


That is the strategy, albeit with a pretty bonkers way of getting there


----------



## Athos (Sep 15, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Go on....


It's just not a picket line i.e. striking workers encouraging other workers (and customers etc.) to show solidarity in a labour dispute.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 15, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Go on....


You know yes? Well imagine the opposite of that.
Or feel free to explain how workers pushed so far that they're forced to down tools, strike and picket for better conditions and/or pay is even remotely similar to a bunch of middle-class wankers blocking a road because they want better loft insulation?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Think there was more emanating from the park bench you were standing around on Saturday


I was thinking of all the pontificating in newspapers and other media, vastly exceeding everything emitted by the bookfair


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Isn't one of the (many) complexities with climate stuff is that it's taking tactics (blockades and site invasions for example) from other campaigns like anti-roads or oil/coal extraction stuff that was about stopping something at the point of the action (construction or mining) and the disruption itself was almost a side effect, and then transplanting them to a format where the action itself becomes a spectacle that doesn't directly impact anything itself at the time it's done?


Suppose the old J18/Give Up Activism debates may have some relevance on this point?


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 15, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Go on....


The Ulster workers' strike, maybe?

Or Powellite dockers?







Otherwise, I too would sooner eat my own leg than cross a picket line.


----------



## LDC (Sep 15, 2021)

I don't think you can liken a protest/demo to a picket line, different things entirely, one is about workers withdrawing their labour and the other isn't. Although maybe you could argue labour isn't solely confined to workplaces and people on demos/actions like this are withdrawing their consent/unpaid labour that reproduces society as it is somehow with these demos/actions?

The logical result of saying crossing/ignoring a demo/action is the same as crossing a picket line gets into issues with demos like outside abortion clinics or right wing demos or like those outside school ones recently, is passing/ignoring those like crossing a picket line as well?

Just thinking on this as totally avoiding jobs I have to do...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Sep 15, 2021)

Have any of the airline unions (Unite) ever picketed public entrances?


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 15, 2021)

Where I think road blocking makes absolute sense as an XR protest tactic, is in particular targeted locations where there are extremely high levels of air pollution that are endangering people's health. It's not hard to find out where these are - there are air quality management areas all over the place, with fuck all being done to mitigate against localised pollution and often even poor monitoring. Generally affecting poorer communities too.


----------



## Sue (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Is it really the point to directly stop emissions at the time of the action itself though? It clearly isn't the point of the M25 stuff, nor for most of XR stuff so far from what I can see. Even power station stuff isn't likely to lower emissions at the time of the action, even if (and it's a big if) the power station is operationally impacted the grid adapts and supply continues from elsewhere - emissions aren't stopped, they might even be increased tbh. The point would be to lower or halt emissions longer term through forcing social and political change surely? I think the big weak point now (for them) is stopping any new emissions from starting, so not allowing any new fossil fuel developments.


And let's not forget this .









						Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof
					

Extinction Rebellion says it will "take stock" of the reaction to the action for future protests.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## andysays (Sep 15, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Where I think road blocking makes absolute sense as an XR protest tactic, is in particular targeted locations where there are extremely high levels of air pollution that are endangering people's health. It's not hard to find out where these are - there are air quality management areas all over the place, with fuck all being done to mitigate against localised pollution and often even poor monitoring. Generally affecting poorer communities too.


And ideally really involving the local communities affected as well.


----------



## LDC (Sep 15, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Where I think road blocking makes absolute sense as an XR protest tactic, is in particular targeted locations where there are extremely high levels of air pollution that are endangering people's health. It's not hard to find out where these are - there are air quality management areas all over the place, with fuck all being done to mitigate against localised pollution and often even poor monitoring. Generally affecting poorer communities too.



I'm not sure that direction has much to offer a climate movement at the moment. It's important for sure more widely, but I think people might be getting a bit reactionary localist on this. It's an issue that doesn't automatically scale up to (or even being about) reducing carbon emissions, _and_ I suspect would very quickly lead just to traffic re-direction away from certain areas or a call for electric cars or something. It also fixes on car drivers as a problem and would involve local councils and similar, which I think aren't that important at the moment with this issue.

Small local campaigns involving local people and 'communities' are often what people say is the direction to go in, and it's partly true (although they are usually full of a whole load of other problems) but we also need large confrontational non-geographically based mass movements. If XR had just done traffic stuff in small towns they'd hardly have been heard of now. And yeah, for sure they can feed off and into one another, but a good argument for climate stuff is the time that it takes to build strong and active local groups is past now. And also XR does have quite good 'local' groups in towns and cities I think, maybe that's the stuff they're doing....?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I don't think you can liken a protest/demo to a picket line, different things entirely, one is about workers withdrawing their labour and the other isn't. Although maybe you could argue labour isn't solely confined to workplaces and people on demos/actions like this are withdrawing their consent/unpaid labour that reproduces society as it is somehow with these demos/actions?
> 
> The logical result of saying crossing/ignoring a demo/action is the same as crossing a picket line gets into issues with demos like outside abortion clinics or right wing demos or like those outside school ones recently, is passing/ignoring those like crossing a picket line as well?
> 
> Just thinking on this as totally avoiding jobs I have to do...


I think I'd disagree with you here, or at least question it a bit. For one thing, looked at from capital's perspective or whatever, I dunno if there's that much of a difference between no-one turning up to work because there's a strike on, and no-one turning up to work because XR are blocking the road outside your building, it's going to piss on your chips either way.
Also like, I think at the moment it's relatively easy to draw a neat line between protests/demos and pickets, but that's because both workplace class struggle and non-workplace political/social movements are piss weak at the moment. When they're stronger, I think you tend to find protest political movements having some expression in the workplace (so like green bans, Scottish engineers v Pinochet, Irish shopworkers against apartheid), and also strikes going beyond just pickets and taking on forms that you'd associate with other movements, like the Molly Maguires, hunting Murdoch vans during Wapping, and perhaps most relevantly Blacklist Support Group blocking the road during disputes at Crossrail.
The port of Oakland's interesting to think about here, like they're still well-organised enough that they have a rule about not crossing any pickets so it seems to be a fairly regular thing that protesters will picket them out against the Iraq War or Donald Trump or for Black Lives Matter or whatever. Dunno where I'm going with that other than that we should all move to Oakland and get jobs as dockers, I suppose?
Anyway, I don't think that random commuters in London are responsible for management practices on Crossrail any more than they are for climate change, even less so in fact. But I still think that BSG blocking that road was A Good Thing. And I suppose it'd be a bit weird to say "well, I'm prepared to put up with a bit of disruption if it's for something important like getting one bloke on Crossrail his job back, but not for some trifling bullshit like the total collapse of the ecological conditions that've sustained human life up to this point"?


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 15, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Where I think road blocking makes absolute sense as an XR protest tactic, is in particular targeted locations where there are extremely high levels of air pollution that are endangering people's health. It's not hard to find out where these are - there are air quality management areas all over the place, with fuck all being done to mitigate against localised pollution and often even poor monitoring. Generally affecting poorer communities too.



In that case roads would need to be blocked nearby, but outside, the targeted area. Otherwise they'd just achieve a long line of stationary, polluting, vehicles which would not help.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 15, 2021)

andysays said:


> And ideally really involving the local communities affected as well.



Yes that would be crucial.


----------



## LDC (Sep 15, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I think I'd disagree with you here, or at least question it a bit. For one thing, looked at from capital's perspective or whatever, I dunno if there's that much of a difference between no-one turning up to work because there's a strike on, and no-one turning up to work because XR are blocking the road outside your building, it's going to piss on your chips either way.



What bit was the disagreement specifically? I'm not sure anyway, just thinking thing though.

I guess the difference would be in the 'what happens next'? Like you can drag people out of the street and get the traffic flowing, but it's harder to drag people into work. But yeah I think the critical thing is the link up between work stuff and social movements, that's where I think climate stuff (and everything else) will be won or lost.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm not sure that direction has much to offer a climate movement at the moment. It's important for sure more widely, but I think people might be getting a bit reactionary localist on this. It's an issue that doesn't automatically scale up to (or even being about) reducing carbon emissions, _and_ I suspect would very quickly lead just to traffic re-direction away from certain areas or a call for electric cars or something. It also fixes on car drivers as a problem and would involve local councils and similar, which I think aren't that important at the moment with this issue.
> 
> Small local campaigns involving local people and 'communities' are often what people say is the direction to go in, and it's partly true (although they are usually full of a whole load of other problems) but we also need large confrontational non-geographically based mass movements. If XR had just done traffic stuff in small towns they'd hardly have been heard of now. And yeah, for sure they can feed off and into one another, but a good argument for climate stuff is the time that it takes to build strong and active local groups is past now. And also XR does have quite good 'local' groups in towns and cities I think, maybe that's the stuff they're doing....?


While it's not the CO2 causing the localised health problems, I'd thought of this as more a way of connecting people with broader issues - our transport system has all sorts of negative impacts, locally and globally. And it's not just small towns - AQMAs are all over the place, one day of effective action at dozens of AQMAs could really fuck up the road network much worse than a few actions on the M25. And I don't think we can get away from the fact that car drivers _are_ a problem. It's not their individualised fault, but the lack of policies to get people out of cars is a big part of the problem. 

It is all a real conundrum. I do think that while people are waking up to the climate issue the broad mass of people still don't get the urgency. Ed Miliband was on Newsnight the other day being really angry and passionate - the best I've seen him on this issue tbh (and cleverly trying to paint Starmer into a bit of a corner quoting his ten pledges) and most of the responses on Twitter were people thinking he had lost the plot / taken cocaine / having a mid life crisis. I'm not sure what it takes to show people that this is a catastrophic issue within lifetimes. I think there's a bit of a paradox that the more people try to raise the alarm, the more desperate they appear - whether through protest or other means - the more they look outside of convention and the more many people are prepared to dismiss them as no more worth listening to than, say, the covid deniers. (I think the fact that the covid protests look kinda similar to XR in terms of the demographic make up isn't at all helpful either).


----------



## LDC (Sep 15, 2021)

Yeah for sure there's similarities between the pandemic and climate stuff, something about it being a problem that's too large/too complex/too challenging to grasp and that leads some into denial very easily. And like has been mentioned a few times the changes needed to people's habits and lives will be difficult to deal with for us.


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## lazythursday (Sep 15, 2021)

But in terms of high profile actions, I would focus completely on a) the finance sector, cos they fund all the bad shit b) new fossil fuel infrastructure, whether that is roads, airports or whatever  and c) any new developments that are catastrophic for nature (eg that new theme park in the Thames estuary). Anything else just doesn't help the overall narrative that business as usual has to stop.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What bit was the disagreement specifically? I'm not sure anyway, just thinking thing though.
> 
> I guess the difference would be in the 'what happens next'? Like you can drag people out of the street and get the traffic flowing, but it's harder to drag people into work. But yeah I think the critical thing is the link up between work stuff and social movements, that's where I think climate stuff (and everything else) will be won or lost.


Oh yeah, I'm pretty much thinking things through as well. Mostly just disagreeing that it's easy to draw a line where protests end and pickets begin. I think unofficial/rank-and-file stuff might make that trickier as well, like going back to the electricians' dispute earlier this year the majority of that consisted of protests at building sites that definitely weren't pickets, more like threats that pickets could take place at some point, but then at some places people refused to cross and so I suppose it became a proper picket at that point? Obviously the culture around secondary/sympathy strikes is very weak at the moment, but when and where those happen I suppose they involve people standing around other people's workplaces, in a very "activist-type" way.


LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah for sure there's similarities between the pandemic and climate stuff, something about it being a problem that's too large/too complex/too challenging to grasp and that leads some into denial very easily. And like has been mentioned a few times the changes needed to people's habits and lives will be difficult to deal with for us.


Denial and the tendency to try and find a way to personalise/anthropomorphise (is that how you spell it? looks wrong) it. Obviously it's more immediately obviously harmful with blaming Bill Gates or whoever, but I've also seen a fair bit of back-and-forth in lefty climate spaces around how useful "X amount of companies/billionaires are responsible for Y amount of the earth's carbon emissions" rhetoric is.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 15, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> But in terms of high profile actions, I would focus completely on a) the finance sector, cos they fund all the bad shit b) new fossil fuel infrastructure, whether that is roads, airports or whatever  and c) any new developments that are catastrophic for nature (eg that new theme park in the Thames estuary). Anything else just doesn't help the overall narrative that business as usual has to stop.


I sort of agree with this, but with the unhelpful caveat that, the bigger and more potentially effective a movement it is, the more it's inevitably going to contain people with different ideas about strategy and what to do next. Like, if everyone in XR was taking their orders directly from Hallam or whoever, it'd be more easy to focus in the way you suggest, but I'm not sure that'd make them more effective overall.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I sort of agree with this, but with the unhelpful caveat that, the bigger and more potentially effective a movement it is, the more it's inevitably going to contain people with different ideas about strategy and what to do next. Like, if everyone in XR was taking their orders directly from Hallam or whoever, it'd be more easy to focus in the way you suggest, but I'm not sure that'd make them more effective overall.


Tbh there's a danger perhaps of xr being considered 'the movement' whereas it's really one admittedly very loud voice among many. There's loads of other environmental groups who are doing good stuff but whose voices are drowned out by xr.


----------



## YouSir (Sep 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh there's a danger perhaps of xr being considered 'the movement' whereas it's really one admittedly very loud voice among many. There's loads of other environmental groups who are doing good stuff but whose voices are drowned out by xr.



One voice will always be louder than others, doesn't really matter as long as XR is a conduit to shift people to support other groups and campaigns. No idea if it's serving that role though.


----------



## LDC (Sep 15, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> But in terms of high profile actions, I would focus completely on a) the finance sector, cos they fund all the bad shit b) new fossil fuel infrastructure, whether that is roads, airports or whatever  and c) any new developments that are catastrophic for nature (eg that new theme park in the Thames estuary). Anything else just doesn't help the overall narrative that business as usual has to stop.



The problem with the financial sector as a target is the targets themselves (mostly banks and offices) and what can be done at them. Purely symbolic stuff mostly, and with XR's very tight non-violence stuff not even sure occupations of them could happen?


----------



## Gromit (Sep 15, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> M25 protests: Activists return to Hertfordshire, Surrey and Kent
> 
> 
> Police arrest 71 people as activists disrupt motorway traffic in Hertfordshire, Surrey and Kent.
> ...


Not sure what they hope to achieve.
The government have been offering free insulation to homes for years.

It use to be my job to knock on doors and offer it. This was many years ago and even back them people already had it or just didn't want it. It's free. Don't want it.

Pickings were slim. I can see how blocking the roads will change the public's minds. The government can't do much more that say hey we'll pay for it.


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## kabbes (Sep 16, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> The problem with the financial sector as a target is the targets themselves (mostly banks and offices) and what can be done at them. Purely symbolic stuff mostly, and with XR's very tight non-violence stuff not even sure occupations of them could happen?


Indeed, everybody is still working from home anyway


----------



## LDC (Sep 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Indeed, everybody is still working from home anyway



Oh shit, yeah, that hadn't even occurred to me!


----------



## kabbes (Sep 16, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Oh shit, yeah, that hadn't even occurred to me!


XR besieged the Lloyd’s building* the other week, which you can more or less see from my work’s office.  The one member of my team (out of 23) that was in the office that day gave the rest of us — all working from home — a running commentary of it, whilst we bemusedly wondered who they thought they were actually inconveniencing.


*(As a separate matter, I would note that this is a slightly odd target — Lloyd’s have a high profile strategy on climate change that involves trying to engineer systematic change in their clients’ activities to reduce climate harm. And insurers don’t finance companies, they just provide a route to mitigate any damage they cause.  But that’s a different matter).


----------



## Badgers (Sep 16, 2021)

My opinion on these disruptive activists is mixed... 

Climate change is real and the cunts running this world have more than blood on their hands. 

If someone missed a holiday BooFuckingHoo that they 'deserved' then fuck them and the polluting ship/plane they came in on. If little Tarquin is a bit behind on his ski skills then have at it.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 16, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Well, it seems to have worked to get the name of their group publicity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its an interesting take on these things and something that I've been banging on about for years as someone who has worked in insulation and the larger insulation industry for some time.

They're right to point out the UK housing stock is a bit of a disaster when it comes to thermal performance as we still have a huge amount of 9" solid brick houses as well as various other stone and non-traditional types of housing.  Retrofitting these houses with wall insulation is extremely difficult as there would have to be some very tough choices to be made.  Do we want to insulate externally and lose our beautiful brick facades or do we do it internally making all our homes smaller and in the process having to rip out and replace millions of bathrooms and kitchens etc?

Their point regarding the insulating of social housing has been going on for decades now though the government mostly have dumped the cost onto LA's and energy providers (who in turned have passed the cost onto us).  This is the reason Grenfell was over-clad, it was nothing to do with beautification it was just that block needed to be upgraded because they all do.

Obviously Grenfell is not a great example but its not correct to say there hasn't been a policy in place for social housing.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 16, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Its an interesting take on these things and something that I've been banging on about for years as someone who has worked in insulation and the larger insulation industry for some time.
> 
> They're right to point out the UK housing stock is a bit of a disaster when it comes to thermal performance as we still have a huge amount of 9" solid brick houses as well as various other stone and non-traditional types of housing.  Retrofitting these houses with wall insulation is extremely difficult as there would have to be some very tough choices to be made.  Do we want to insulate externally and lose our beautiful brick facades or do we do it internally making all our homes smaller and in the process having to rip out and replace millions of bathrooms and kitchens etc?
> 
> ...


Yep, the big problem area is older private sector stock, most of which haven't even been eligible for government schemes until recently as they were all targeted at the low hanging fruit of cavity wall and loft insulation, when many of these properties need internal or external wall insulation and/or room-in-attic under-roof insulation. And private rented sector even worse as landlords have zero incentive to make their houses thermally better. I absolutely think we have to get real and encourage external wall insulation and fuck the heritage / aesthetic aspects tbh (and obviously there are a lot of aesthetic options in terms of the final look).

There is lots of research into how to make this happen with various models suggested - one stop shop services for retrofit that will manage al the contractors, whole-house-retrofit models rather than piecemeal, energy/heating as a service models where you sign up for long-term service with the retrofit company (not allowed under our current energy switching rules) etc. What is absolutely clear is that the schemes the government endlessly design are an utter failure, they make it too complex for the householder, enable lots of dodgy cowboy companies to fuck it all up, etc.


----------



## andysays (Sep 16, 2021)

Gromit said:


> Not sure what they hope to achieve.
> The government have been offering free insulation to homes for years.
> 
> It use to be my job to knock on doors and offer it. This was many years ago and even back them people already had it or just didn't want it. It's free. Don't want it.
> ...


One of issues about "free" additional insulation is that it was actually only made available to some people, because many live in homes which weren't suitable for the type of insulation which was available.

My recollection is that it was basically loft and cavity wall stuff which was available, if your home doesn't have cavity walls (mine doesn't) there was no alternative available.

ETA point already made above...


----------



## maomao (Sep 16, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I absolutely think we have to get real and encourage external wall insulation and fuck the heritage / aesthetic aspects tbh (and obviously there are a lot of aesthetic options in terms of the final look).


Half the nice brickwork has long been covered in unattractive renders like pebbledash anyway. I live in a street of 1890s semi-detached workers cottages with no cavity walls and less than half have original brickwork on show. The one house with external insulating cladding barely stands out unless you know what you're looking for.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 16, 2021)

maomao said:


> Half the nice brickwork has long been covered in unattractive renders like pebbledash anyway. I live in a street of 1890s semi-detached workers cottages with no cavity walls and less than half have original brickwork on show. The one house with external insulating cladding barely stands out unless you know what you're looking for.


Quite different round here, where the majority of properties are (very poorly insulated) Victorian stone terraces, and have a very distinctive look. New properties have to be built to look similar too. But I'm guessing that the new ones just have stone cladding on the outside so there's no real reason why the old ones couldn't have that applied too, but at the moment would fall foul of the local planning regulations as far as I know.


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## kabbes (Sep 16, 2021)

When we had a kitchen extension done, it was done with cavity insulation and heritage brick on the outside to maintain the aesthetic. So that was easily resolved, and has just left a small part of one wall that remains single skin.  The core part of the house is much older, though, with stone walls, not brick.  I have absolutely no idea how that could be insulated without utterly ruining the look of the place, which regardless of my own opinion, the kabbess wouldn’t even begin to countenance.  I just accept that the dining room is always going to be cold and avoid pumping heat into it for no reason during the winter months.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 16, 2021)

The insulation crew blocked the M25 at Wisley (jct 10) yesterday for the second time in a week, the first time the police were fairly understanding and took their time in moving them, this time they were overshadowed by a car exploding at jct 9 around 7am, followed by a serious crash at 9am also at jct 9, so it is understandable that dibble didn't have quite the same patience with them yesterday...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The insulation crew blocked the M25 at Wisley (jct 10) yesterday for the second time in a week, the first time the police were fairly understanding and took their time in moving them, this time they were overshadowed by a car exploding at jct 9 around 7am, followed by a serious crash at 9am also at jct 9, so it is understandable that dibble didn't have quite the same patience with them yesterday...


Hopefully Dibble will get a lot of overtime when the water wars start


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 16, 2021)

Of course if we could insulate the walls of all the old housing stock it would also get rid of a lot of the damp problems.


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## Badgers (Sep 16, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Of course if we could insulate the walls of all the old housing stock it would also get rid of a lot of the damp problems.


WHO WILL FUND THAT???? 

THE BILLIONAIRES????


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Hopefully Dibble will get a lot of overtime when the water wars start





Water needed




Water not needed




Not sure if the air ambulance that attended #2 was powered by woven honey though...


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> WHO WILL FUND THAT????
> 
> THE BILLIONAIRES????



Sorry guv.  I work in construction not financing.

Edit: I do think this demand to insulate all homes is a bit of a dead end tbh.  Resources would be better directed at renewable clean energy.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 16, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> Sorry guv.  I work in construction not financing.
> 
> Edit: I do think this demand to insulate all homes is a bit of a dead end tbh.  Resources would be better directed at renewable clean energy.



You may be able to help then, my old cottage had single-skin brick walls, how do you insulate that? 5 minutes after turning the heating off it was fucking freezing.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You may be able to help then, my old cottage had single-skin brick walls, how do you insulate that? 5 minutes after turning the heating off it was fucking freezing.


Insulated dry lining.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 16, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Insulated dry lining.




Wasn't allowed as the poxy place was listed. Happy to say we now live in a place where I can lounge around in my y-fonts all day, even in the depths of winter


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You may be able to help then, my old cottage had single-skin brick walls, how do you insulate that? 5 minutes after turning the heating off it was fucking freezing.



Stick a big slab on insulation on the inside or outside.  That's all you can do.  This is before we start talking about how much heat loss is through the floor...

I think we'd be better off starting with sticking solar PV on every roof out there.  Its far more achievable and less intrusive.  We may not have the most sun in the UK but thanks to the lack of snow (in most of the UK) we do have a lot of gently pitched roofs which are ideal for solar.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 16, 2021)

Adding solar PV won't do an awful lot regarding the challenge of heating older properties though. Without better insulation heat pumps aren't a good option. 

The only real alternative is hydrogen - and jury still out on that. It may only be an option for some regions. And given its much less efficient than burning methane, it is likely to be more expensive and so reducing heat loss will still be really important.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 17, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> Adding solar PV won't do an awful lot regarding the challenge of heating older properties though. Without better insulation heat pumps aren't a good option.



If we get plentiful clean energy then heat loss will become less of an issue.  I've being saying the same thing on the EV thread its about was is achievable not what would happen in an ideal world.

I live in a conservation zone, you can barely change a lightbulb round here without getting planning permission.  The idea that all the beautiful London Stock town houses that stretch as far as the eye can see will suddenly get an EWI system is so far fetched as to be a non-starter.  

Solar panels on every roof and make landlords and commercial freeholders responsible for bringing their properties up to a high standard.  That is achievable and something that will have to happen anyway so it may as well happen now.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 17, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> If we get plentiful clean energy then heat loss will become less of an issue.  I've being saying the same thing on the EV thread its about was is achievable not what would happen in an ideal world.
> 
> I live in a conservation zone, you can barely change a lightbulb round here without getting planning permission.  The idea that all the beautiful London Stock town houses that stretch as far as the eye can see will suddenly get an EWI system is so far fetched as to be a non-starter.
> 
> Solar panels on every roof and make landlords and commercial freeholders responsible for bringing their properties up to a high standard.  That is achievable and something that will have to happen anyway so it may as well happen now.


It doesn't matter how much solar energy you are generating if your heat pump just won't heat the house properly because of poor thermal ability. I'm not against widespread solar at all, but I don't think the sums add up in terms of compensating for heat loss.

I think a) heritage and conservation rules will adapt to reality - there are already some examples of EWI being used in conservation areas on sides and rear of houses and b) internal insulation will become an absolute standard thing when renovating houses / rooms. I just don't see there is an alternative - hydrogen yes, but that will inevitably be a lot more expensive than methane.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> It doesn't matter how much solar energy you are generating if your heat pump just won't heat the house properly because of poor thermal ability. I'm not against widespread solar at all, but I don't think the sums add up in terms of compensating for heat loss.
> 
> I think a) heritage and conservation rules will adapt to reality - there are already some examples of EWI being used in conservation areas on sides and rear of houses and b) internal insulation will become an absolute standard thing when renovating houses / rooms. I just don't see there is an alternative - hydrogen yes, but that will inevitably be a lot more expensive than methane.


Not moving away from methane will be even more expensive


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 17, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> I think a) heritage and conservation rules will adapt to reality - there are already some examples of EWI being used in conservation areas on sides and rear of houses and b) internal insulation will become an absolute standard thing when renovating houses / rooms. I just don't see there is an alternative - hydrogen yes, but that will inevitably be a lot more expensive than methane.



I'm less convinced.  With regard to internal insulation are people really going to accept losing that much floor space?  To bring them up to modern standards will need a hefty slab of insulation unless of course you use a PIR or PUR insulation but if you did that you'd be lining your house with combustible materials.

There is no easy overall solution to this but Solar PV is an easy win.  Still, with temperatures hotting up maybe we won't need so much insulation.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 17, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I'm less convinced.  With regard to internal insulation are people really going to accept losing that much floor space?  To bring them up to modern standards will need a hefty slab of insulation unless of course you use a PIR or PUR insulation but if you did that you'd be lining your house with combustible materials.
> 
> There is no easy overall solution to this but Solar PV is an easy win.  Still, with temperatures hotting up maybe we won't need so much insulation.


Well are people really going to accept not being able to heat their houses? every option has a downside. No insulation + heat pump = lack of comfort. No insulation + hydrogen = much bigger bills. And hydrogen may not even be an option depending on how the technology matures. 

What is needed is some kind of expert service that can come and assess your house (from all angles, including suitability for solar PV etc) and issue you a whole-house plan, that can be done in stages or all at once. And new long term financing (and subsidies) that can make that less painful. And that service to manage the contractors etc for you and do quality checks. Or even pay for the whole house upgrade on the basis that you are locked into a long term energy service contract (like the Netherlands Energiesprong model). I know quite a lot about all this and I still struggle to work out what I am best doing to my house - it really isn't good enough to have a grant scheme where the householder is expected to work it all out for themselves. 

And yeah, it has to be marketed right as a massive upgrade, a desirable modernisation - at the moment people clearly don't see the benefit (and right now there isn't one, given the cheapness and availability of gas. These old houses with their lovely heritage features may be much less desirable post-gas...)


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 17, 2021)

lazythursday said:


> What is needed is some kind of expert service that can come and assess your house (from all angles, including suitability for solar PV etc) and issue you a whole-house plan, that can be done in stages or all at once. And new long term financing (and subsidies) that can make that less painful. And that service to manage the contractors etc for you and do quality checks. Or even pay for the whole house upgrade on the basis that you are locked into a long term energy service contract (like the Netherlands Energiesprong model). I know quite a lot about all this and I still struggle to work out what I am best doing to my house - it really isn't good enough to have a grant scheme where the householder is expected to work it all out for themselves.



This is essentially the vision Carillion (remember them) had when they purchased the company I worked for at the time (EAGA) for silly money.  Unfortunately Cameron's "greenest government ever" put a kibosh on it by basically cutting all grants, meaning no incentive.  Obviously other colourful things were happening with Carillion but I digress.

I worked in EWI for years and I could sit here and talk about u-values and thermal bridging etc but I just cannot see a route to people giving up their beautiful stone or brick façade or losing all that internal space.  Also retrofitting existing housing stock does not come without its problems as many home owners who have had cavity fill will tell you (interstitial condensation etc).

It would be a lot easier if most of our housing stock was post-war grimness like a lot of Europe but it aint.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 17, 2021)

Questionable if this is possible without tearing down a lot of old housing stock and rebuilding which would no doubt cause emissions too.

The rooms in my old terraced house were 3m x 3m, by the time you include chimney breasts, fireplaces, radiators, doors and windows that’s not much usable space and shrinking it further to add insulation would be a non-starter.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 17, 2021)

Of course most of the people protesting probably live in purpose built Grand Design eco houses so wouldn’t get there’s a whole other way of living


----------



## Flavour (Sep 18, 2021)

The German activists starving themselves to make politicians face the climate crisis
					

The Last Generation, a six-strong group, is camping out near the Reichstag determined to force a commitment to limit global heating




					www.theguardian.com
				




hunger strike anyone?


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 19, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Questionable if this is possible without tearing down a lot of old housing stock and rebuilding which would no doubt cause emissions too.
> 
> The rooms in my old terraced house were 3m x 3m, by the time you include chimney breasts, fireplaces, radiators, doors and windows that’s not much usable space and shrinking it further to add insulation would be a non-starter.


So many of the actions we need to do, whether on transport or housing or consumption or whatever, are judged by many to be a non-starter, because they mean some kind of sacrifice or major jolting change from past assumptions. I think we really have to stop thinking like this. If we don't have rapid, concerted action across all sectors of the economy, across all of the developed world, ASAP, we are facing some really serious shit by the 2040s. It's not far away. 

Either those houses will be insulated, whatever the cost in space or aesthetics, or in the not too distant future they may either be impossible or prohibitively expensive to heat. People can decide that it's a non starter now but it's just delaying the inevitable.


----------



## kenny g (Sep 19, 2021)

May as well just rebuild London a few miles up river and leave the crap housing stock to revert to woodland/ marshland in anticipation of rising sea levels.


----------



## starfish2000 (Sep 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Hallam is one fucking loon.


Or perhaps a Special Branch asset, helping sway public opinion into even more anti democratic crackdowns on the right to protest?

I was on standby at work watching GMB this morning. They loved it. The paralysed lady story. Lapping it up.

I mean, the environment is an issue that if you were serious about changing requires the consensus of the 1%. But instead you have a guy who doesn’t even go near them? If I was a petrochemical billionaire taking off undisturbed from RAF Northolt this morning I’d be laughing hard into my glass of champagne as my minions continued to raze the planet.


----------



## yield (Sep 20, 2021)

starfish2000 said:


> Or perhaps a Special Branch asset, helping sway public opinion into even more anti democratic crackdowns on the right to protest?
> 
> I was on standby at work watching GMB this morning. They loved it. The paralysed lady story. Lapping it up.
> 
> I mean, the environment is an issue that if you were serious about changing requires the consensus of the 1%. But instead you have a guy who doesn’t even go near them? If I was a petrochemical billionaire taking off undisturbed from RAF Northolt this morning I’d be laughing hard into my glass of champagne as my minions continued to raze the planet.


Maybe so but it is weird. Some of my middle class friends have gotten involved.

It's decentralised, got legs and fractions will form. It's bigger than Hallam


----------



## 8ball (Sep 21, 2021)

yield said:


> Maybe so but it is weird. Some of my middle class friends have gotten involved.
> 
> It's decentralised, got legs and fractions will form. It's bigger than Hallam



Yeah, like Insulate Britain.


----------



## LDC (Sep 21, 2021)

starfish2000 said:


> Or perhaps a Special Branch asset, helping sway public opinion into even more anti democratic crackdowns on the right to protest?



You tinfoil hat lunatic.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 21, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You tinfoil hat lunatic.


You would be foolish not to think that the security services have infiltrated the likes of ER or are attempting to do so. The evidence from the spycops inquiry even though it's very flawed is overwhelming. Apparently though they may not be having so much success on this occasion:









						Met police ‘tried to recruit ex-officer to spy on climate change activists’
					

Former detective says he was asked to inform on fellow Extinction Rebellion campaigners




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## LDC (Sep 21, 2021)

teqniq said:


> You would be foolish not to think that the security services have infiltrated the likes of ER or are attempting to do so. The evidence from the spycops inquiry even though it's very flawed is overwhelming. Apparently though they may not be having so much success on this occasion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a _very _big jump from thinking that they've infiltrated XR to thinking the whole thing is a set-up with Hallam paid to set it up to discredit protest and justify repression.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 21, 2021)

If I read them correctly, starfish2000 is just talking about Hallam, not the whole movement being a set up.


----------



## LDC (Sep 21, 2021)

teqniq said:


> If I read them correctly, starfish2000 is just talking about Hallam, not the whole movement being a set up.



I read what they were saying as suggesting Hallam started XR to discredit protest etc. Anyway, off topic, he's doing a pretty good job of being a fucking idiot without any help from the State.


----------



## Serene (Sep 21, 2021)

I have noticed that Sky News has a climate change program everyday and relevant data is presented on the screen. I havent seen any other channels doing this on the News. The data they present is interesting, if true. I am not a protestor and nor am I involved with it all in any way, I am an observer and I know that the climate has changed massively since I was young. The work carried out by the protestors I think is very important.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The German activists starving themselves to make politicians face the climate crisis
> 
> 
> The Last Generation, a six-strong group, is camping out near the Reichstag determined to force a commitment to limit global heating
> ...


I don't think they know anything about previous German hunger strikes


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 21, 2021)

I think the  whole Insulate Britain thing is great.  High levels of disruption in pursuit of an almost mundane objective.


----------



## pug (Sep 21, 2021)

How much insulation will they be satisfied though?


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> I think the  whole Insulate Britain thing is great.  High levels of disruption in pursuit of an almost mundane objective.


I like it too. It's specific, realistic, attainable, would genuinely reduce emmisions and the benefit goes mostly to council tenants. Only an idiot would oppose that.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 21, 2021)

maomao said:


> I like it too. It's specific, realistic, attainable, would genuinely reduce emmisions and the benefit goes mostly to council tenants. Only an idiot would oppose that.



I think with specific regard to council and social housing then I would agree.  Most of that housing stock is post war and a lot easier to achieve thermal upgrades, besides as mentioned upthread this has already been happening for many years.

When it comes down to the pre-war (mostly privately owned) housing stock I do think people severely underestimate some of the complexity involved and how achievable it is and I say this as someone more than familiar with the industry.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

maomao said:


> I like it too. It's specific, realistic, attainable, would genuinely reduce emmisions and the benefit goes mostly to council tenants. Only an idiot would oppose that.


I'm sure nobody would oppose it for council tenants but do you think this group gives a fuck about council tenants, or is it more likely they're looking for free upgrades for their London townhouses?


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm sure nobody would oppose it for council tenants but do you think this group gives a fuck about council tenants, or is it more likely they're looking for free upgrades for their London townhouses?


Go and look at their website.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 21, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I think with specific regard to council and social housing then I would agree.  Most of that housing stock is post war and a lot easier to achieve thermal upgrades, besides as mentioned upthread this has already been happening for many years.
> 
> When it comes down to the pre-war (mostly privately owned) housing stock I do think people severely underestimate some of the complexity involved and how achievable it is and I say this as someone more than familiar with the industry.


I don’t know a vast amount but housing or insulation but I do know that retrofitting anything is never as easy, aesthetically pleasing or cheap as it being designed in from the outset.


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Well, when the gulf stream shuts down and the  gas runs out there's going to be a lot of very cold people in pretty houses.


----------



## Elpenor (Sep 21, 2021)

Never mind eat the rich, why not burn them?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Never mind eat the rich, why not burn them?


Turning them into penguin feed is supported by 42.8% of people, up from 23.4% last year


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 21, 2021)

maomao said:


> Well, when the gulf stream shuts down and the  gas runs out there's going to be a lot of very cold people in pretty houses.



If only it was just about visual appearance, then it would be easy as a mindset shift.  There is some serious barriers to retrofitting insulation onto existing buildings.  

Still, sounds like my job will be busy and I'm in the right industry.


----------



## Idaho (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm sure nobody would oppose it for council tenants but do you think this group gives a fuck about council tenants, or is it more likely they're looking for free upgrades for their London townhouses?


Such keen and detailed understanding of something from just a brief scan/synopsis of a news report. With such learning prowess you should go into academia.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

Idaho said:


> Such keen and detailed understanding of something from just a brief scan/synopsis of a news report. With such learning prowess you should go into academia.


Ah right, so they're not just a bunch of rich, white, middle-class wankers, like the rest of XR. I guess everyone must be wrong about them.


----------



## LDC (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Ah right, so they're not just a bunch of rich, white, middle-class wankers, like the rest of XR. I guess everyone must be wrong about them.



I'm more than happy to listen (and give) criticisms of XR, but I'd like to think they'd be grounded in some sort of reality rather than a regurgitated Spiked or Daily Mail article based on the fetid delusions of a demented Tory.

This is literally the first line on their website: 
Join the Insulate Britain Campaign to force the government to insulate Britain's leaky homes starting with social housing.​


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Ah right, so they're not just a bunch of rich, white, middle-class wankers, like the rest of XR. I guess everyone must be wrong about them.


White and middle class like you?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

Coming soon, to a motorway near you... QUINOA WARS!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'm more than happy to listen (and give) criticisms of XR, but I'd like to think they'd be grounded in some sort of reality rather than a regurgitated Spiked or Daily Mail article based on the fetid delusions of a demented Tory.
> 
> This is literally the first line on their website:
> Join the Insulate Britain Campaign to force the government to insulate Britain's leaky homes starting with social housing.​


Must be true then, if it's written in big fonts.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

maomao said:


> White and middle class like you?


That's definitely worth at least one of these  🤣


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> That's definitely worth at least one of these  🤣


Which one of those two things are you not? I've seen your photo and you've claimed to be an engineer.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

maomao said:


> Which one of those two things are you not? I've seen your photo and you've claimed to be an engineer.


I was an engineer about 20 years ago. I've never been middle-class. I have the occasionally fit of madness where I aspire to reach working-class status but it doesn't last long. 
Middle-class  🤣


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I was an engineer about 20 years ago. I've never been middle-class. I have the occasionally fit of madness where I aspire to reach working-class status but it doesn't last long.
> Middle-class  🤣


You appear to have confused an aspect of your social identity with class.


----------



## Leafster (Sep 21, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> I think with specific regard to council and social housing then I would agree.  Most of that housing stock is post war and a lot easier to achieve thermal upgrades, besides as mentioned upthread this has already been happening for many years.
> 
> *When it comes down to the pre-war (mostly privately owned) housing stock I do think people severely underestimate some of the complexity involved and how achievable it is and I say this as someone more than familiar with the industry*.


I think another complexity arises with leasehold properties whenever they were built. When I lived in a leasehold flat, my downstairs neighbour and I asked for permission from the freehold company to get get cavity wall insulation done under a discounted council scheme and they refused to agree to it. 

I can't remember the exact reasons they gave. It was something along the lines of:

1 - they were responsible for the fabric of the building,​2 - only they could initiate and authorise the work - we couldn't authorise any work ourselves which affected the fabric of the building,​3 - the lease only covered maintenance of the building and that cavity wall insulation was an upgrade,​4 - although we were willing to pay for the CWI they wouldn't be able to recover any costs they incurred as a result of the CWI via the service charge as it would be outside the scope of the lease​5 - even though the walls around mine and my neighbours flats only effectively enclosed our properties there were adjoining walls for the communal stairway and they were concerned about the impact of any "spillage" or insulation into the walls of the communal stairway​​​


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

maomao said:


> You appear to have confused an aspect of your social identity with class.


No, you do.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Ah right, so they're not just a bunch of rich, white, middle-class wankers, like the rest of XR. I guess everyone must be wrong about them.



Boring


----------



## kenny g (Sep 21, 2021)

Red Sky said:


> Boring


Yaaas.


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> No, you do.



I doubt I'll get an honest answer to what you do for a living so it's hard to know but being a bit tough and not talking posh doesn't make you working class.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

maomao said:


> I doubt I'll get an honest answer to what you do for a living so it's hard to know but being a bit tough and not talking posh doesn't make you working class.


I had an accident at work 20 years ago. It left my neck fucked and I haven't worked since, although I do still do the occasional bit of CAD work for a friend, as it facilitates eating. It would be nice to be able to work again, as I haven't got a pot to piss in, but hey ho.


----------



## maomao (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I had an accident at work 20 years ago. It left my neck fucked and I haven't worked since, although I do still do the occasional bit of CAD work for a friend, as it facilitates eating. It would be nice to be able to work again, as I haven't got a pot to piss in, but hey ho.


Congratulations, I can confirm that you're not middle class.


----------



## LDC (Sep 21, 2021)

And Saul Goodman do you _really _think people involved in XR are doing it for some free insulation for themselves (or some other thing like that) or are you just trying to make the point that you don't like or agree with them or what they're doing? If so is it the whole thing on climate, what they're doing generally, or this M25 thing specifically?


----------



## Idaho (Sep 21, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And Saul Goodman do you _really _think people involved in XR are doing it for some free insulation for themselves (or some other thing like that) or are you just trying to make the point that you don't like or agree with them or what they're doing? If so is it the whole thing on climate, what they're doing generally, or this M25 thing specifically?


I suspect it's "I like vehicles and am deeply suspicious of people who say vehicles may cause environmental problems - especially strange English people who look funny".


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> And Saul Goodman do you _really _think people involved in XR are doing it for some free insulation for themselves (or some other thing like that) or are you just trying to make the point that you don't like or agree with them or what they're doing? If so is it the whole thing on climate, what they're doing generally, or this M25 thing specifically?


I don't believe they're doing it for free Insulation. I believe they're doing it because they're bored, middle-class kids, who literally have nothing else to do, and their need to feel wanted has driven them to this, probably because mummy and daddy didn't give them enough attention as a child.

I don't agree with what they're doing because they're doing absolutely nothing of worth. All they're achieving is pissing people off. They could go and protest outside downing Street or dig up Boris Johnson's lawn but they'd rather piss off normal people.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 21, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I don't believe they're doing it for free Insulation. I believe they're doing it because they're bored, middle-class kids, who literally have nothing else to do, and their need to feel wanted has driven them to this, probably because mummy and daddy didn't give them enough attention as a child.
> 
> I don't agree with what they're doing because they're doing absolutely nothing of worth. All they're achieving is pissing people off. They could go and protest outside downing Street or dig up Boris Johnson's lawn but they'd rather piss off normal people.


So what's your excuse for pissing off people on a regular basis?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 21, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> So what's your excuse for pissing off people on a regular basis?


I enjoy it.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 22, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> I don't believe they're doing it for free Insulation. I believe they're doing it because they're bored, middle-class kids, who literally have nothing else to do, and their need to feel wanted has driven them to this, probably because mummy and daddy didn't give them enough attention as a child.



Yes, they should spend their time more usefully and join the middle aged men ranting on a message board!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 22, 2021)

edcraw said:


> Yes, they should spend their time more usefully and join the middle aged men ranting on a message board!


It'd probably be more environmentally friendly


----------



## YouSir (Sep 22, 2021)

If nothing else XR and Insulate both show what a non-serious country this is, so far there have been calls to run them down, claims that they're a Chinese/Russian/government backed front to destroy something or the other and endless day dreams from van drivers about how they'd go John Wick on some middle aged eco types as part of their hero fantasies about rushing half a dozen pregnant women to A&E in the back of their Transit. Good stuff.


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2021)

It's easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine letting Clarkson down.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> It's easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine letting Clarkson down.


Ironically, they're probably all neighbours and friends of Clarkson.


----------



## Idaho (Sep 22, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Ironically, they're probably all neighbours and friends of Clarkson.


What's this based on, beyond imagination?

It reminds of comments people make about beggars: "probably earns more than me and drives home to the suburbs in a Merc at the end of the day".


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Ironically, they're probably all neighbours and friends of Clarkson.


Who are?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 22, 2021)

Idaho said:


> What's this based on, beyond imagination?


They're the same people who arrived at Clarkson's quaint little farm shop in droves, just to get their face on the telly.


----------



## LDC (Sep 22, 2021)

chilango said:


> Who are?



XR/Insulate Britain apparently. They all live next to Clarkson in their town houses in London. Probably Islington. Or that farm he runs. Probably in the home counties. All drinking soya lattes and cycling everywhere the cunts. Probably funded by Corbyn/Russia/insulation manufacturers anyway...


----------



## ddraig (Sep 22, 2021)

injunction against insulate








						Insulate Britain: Injunction granted against M25 protesters
					

National Highways wins a High Court ruling against protesters who have been disrupting the M25.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> They're the same people who arrived at Clarkson's quaint little farm shop in droves, just to get their face on the telly.



Wouldn't know. I don't watch Clarkson's Farm. Do you?


----------



## YouSir (Sep 22, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> XR/Insulate Britain apparently. They all live next to Clarkson in their town houses in London. Probably Islington. Or that farm he runs. Probably in the home counties. All drinking soya lattes and cycling everywhere the cunts. Probably funded by Corbyn/Russia/insulation manufacturers anyway...



I believe you'll find they're all jobless, feckless crusties too high on the marijuana cigarettes brought with our tax money to know what day it is, the dirty unwashed bastards.


----------



## chilango (Sep 22, 2021)

Anyway. Here's how to block a motorway. More of this kind of thing!


----------



## Idaho (Sep 22, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> They're the same people who arrived at Clarkson's quaint little farm shop in droves, just to get their face on the telly.


Are they? Could you give a little more detail?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 22, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> They're the same people who arrived at Clarkson's quaint little farm shop in droves, just to get their face on the telly.



And coming up next on GBNews…


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 22, 2021)

YouSir said:


> I believe you'll find they're all jobless, feckless crusties too high on the marijuana cigarettes brought with our tax money to know what day it is, the dirty unwashed bastards.


The marijuana cigarettes they bought from Jeremy Clarkson's shop with our tax money, I think you'll find!


----------



## Idaho (Sep 22, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> The marijuana cigarettes they bought from Jeremy Clarkson's shop with our tax money, I think you'll find!


All approved by the EU. Brexit betrayed


----------



## Saul Goodman (Sep 22, 2021)

Idaho said:


> Are they? Could you give a little more detail?


I could but you already know.


----------



## A380 (Sep 22, 2021)

And I heard they’ve all got giant tellys paid for by the BBC with over 70s license payers’ money.


----------



## not a trot (Sep 22, 2021)

ddraig said:


> injunction against insulate
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are prison cells insulated.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 22, 2021)

not a trot said:


> Are prison cells insulated.


They’re well lagged.


----------



## Teaboy (Sep 22, 2021)

Leafster said:


> I think another complexity arises with leasehold properties whenever they were built. When I lived in a leasehold flat, my downstairs neighbour and I asked for permission from the freehold company to get get cavity wall insulation done under a discounted council scheme and they refused to agree to it.
> 
> I can't remember the exact reasons they gave. It was something along the lines of:
> 
> 1 - they were responsible for the fabric of the building,​2 - only they could initiate and authorise the work - we couldn't authorise any work ourselves which affected the fabric of the building,​3 - the lease only covered maintenance of the building and that cavity wall insulation was an upgrade,​4 - although we were willing to pay for the CWI they wouldn't be able to recover any costs they incurred as a result of the CWI via the service charge as it would be outside the scope of the lease​5 - even though the walls around mine and my neighbours flats only effectively enclosed our properties there were adjoining walls for the communal stairway and they were concerned about the impact of any "spillage" or insulation into the walls of the communal stairway​​​



You make a good point about leasehold.  It could probably be lumped in with the problem of private renting as well.  The people / company that own the building have no incentive to upgrade its thermal performance.

Some of the stuff your freeholder was saying makes a bit of sense, there sounds like the potential for a continuity of insulation problem and cold spots.  Also its not like cavity fill hasn't caused some problems in some buildings.  The whole thing though mainly reads like a list of excuses because its easier for them to say no because its no skin of their nose.

I bet if you were proposing to put some new expensive windows in (and pay for them) they would have quite happily said yes (in fact it was likely part of the lease agreement).  How windows are not considered part of teh fabric of the building yet the inside of a cavity wall is beyond me.

The situation is pretty fucked and the chances of this getting resolved seems miles away.


----------



## Leafster (Sep 22, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> You make a good point about leasehold.  It could probably be lumped in with the problem of private renting as well.  The people / company that own the building have no incentive to upgrade its thermal performance.
> 
> Some of the stuff your freeholder was saying makes a bit of sense, there sounds like the potential for a continuity of insulation problem and cold spots.  Also its not like cavity fill hasn't caused some problems in some buildings.  The whole thing though mainly reads like a list of excuses because its easier for them to say no because its no skin of their nose.
> 
> ...


I think, primarily, in my case, it was the freehold company being constrained by the terms of the leases. The leases defined who was responsible for what and how any expenses could be recovered. The lease was very specific about "keeping the building in good repair". The legal interpretation appears to be that "good repair" cannot include any element of improvement. Later legislation to protect tenants and lessees has resulted in an inability to improve many leasehold properties as the costs cannot be legally  recovered from the lessees. As a result the quality of the buildings are "set in stone" in the period they were built. They cannot legally be improved. 

I think there has been legislation which has been enabled which effectively over-rides some aspects of the leases. I seem to remember when I lived there that we had to have safety improvements done which would not have actually been possible under the terms of the lease. 

One thing I should clarify is that, like many leasehold flats, we each owned a share in the management company and the freehold company. Many residents wanted to improve things but we were hampered by legislation which barred us from doing it in order to protect the residents who didn't want to or couldn't afford to pay for improvements. 

When we approached the freehold company for permission to install cavity wall insulation our directors took professional advice and it was this advice which resulted in the freehold company having to refuse me permission. 

The only way I can see to improve the situation for leasehold properties is for legislation to be put in place which would treat energy-efficiency measures as repairs rather than improvements. In addition to this there would have to be grants available to the less well-off leaseholders to pay for the proportion of the service charges relating to energy-efficiency measures. To be honest, I can't see this happening! 

As an aside, you mentioned private renters. In the set up I mentioned above - freehold company and management company owned by the lessees collectively, any BTL landlords who owned one of the flats would not be able to improve their properties, even if they wanted to, for the same legal restrictions.


----------



## lazythursday (Sep 22, 2021)

Yeah, leasehold rules are a problem. There are lots of problems. Was having this discussion with someone earlier who kept finding reasons why it was impossible to retrofit various types of housing - but the fact that there are some really intractable problems doesn't mean there aren't a lot of houses in this country more than suitable for retrofitting with improved insulation and heat pumps, with already existing technology and within current rules. Lets get on with what's possible and work out the difficult issues as the project commences. There isn't time to wait to get everything ironed out. 

This discussion makes me think of a piece of academic work on the nine different discourses of climate delay, best read in cartoon form: (elements of 4/8/9 and 12 when it comes to retrofit)


----------



## 8ball (Sep 23, 2021)

Is that really a piece of academic work?


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

i went along to a local 'big green week' meeting yesterday eve and there was a woman there who is very involved in extinction rebellion, she's in her 70s and tiny and keeps glueing herself to stuff and getting arrested. I was really impressed and moved by some of the things she said.

She told me about what it felt like to do a solitary protest recently just her self alone sat in the road stopping traffic, waiting for the police to come, ordinary people just trying to get somewhere shouting at her what the hell do you think you'll achieve etc, and how the thought process was that she went through to decide that this was an action she felt was worth doing. Changed my mind about a few things, which is always a good feeling.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2021)

8ball said:


> Is that really a piece of academic work?


It's a cartoon version of this:



from this:









						Discourses of climate delay | Global Sustainability | Cambridge Core
					

Discourses of climate delay - Volume 3




					www.cambridge.org


----------



## 8ball (Sep 23, 2021)

maomao said:


> It's a cartoon version of this:
> 
> View attachment 289780
> 
> ...



Guess they didn’t know about bingo cards.


----------



## LDC (Sep 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> i went along to a local 'big green week' meeting yesterday eve and there was a woman there who is very involved in extinction rebellion, she's in her 70s and tiny and keeps glueing herself to stuff and getting arrested. I was really impressed and moved by some of the things she said.
> 
> She told me about what it felt like to do a solitary protest recently just her self alone sat in the road stopping traffic, waiting for the police to come, ordinary people just trying to get somewhere shouting at her what the hell do you think you'll achieve etc, and how the thought process was that she went through to decide that this was an action she felt was worth doing. Changed my mind about a few things, which is always a good feeling.



Yeah, for all the bleating on about young people etc etc. a significant percentage of people doing stuff as XR are people in their 60s and 70s.


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2021)

There are a lot of retirees in XR because they have the time and aren't worried about the impact of an arrest on their careers or ability to look after the kids. Kids and work is my excuse for not being out there. Maybe in fifteen years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, for all the bleating on about young people etc etc. a significant percentage of people doing stuff as XR are people in their 60s and 70s.


You'd have thought that xr would give a shit about pensioners nicked, prosecuted and convicted for actions on xr demonstrations. But I've seen no evidence they do and quite a bit to the contrary: of the pensioners I know who've been prosecuted for xr stuff not one of them was supported by that organisation, legally financially or morally


----------



## bimble (Sep 23, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yeah, for all the bleating on about young people etc etc. a significant percentage of people doing stuff as XR are people in their 60s and 70s.


yep its one of the things i noticed from the photos, lots of older people. This one yesterday was very what have i got to lose, my kids are too old to even be embarrassed of me anymore. 

Also, 'why are they all so white and middle class', someone there last night was saying that as a black person he's really not that keen on getting arrested, its not the same as doing it when you're a nice little old white lady, and that makes total sense to me.


----------



## smokedout (Sep 23, 2021)

Teaboy said:


> If only it was just about visual appearance, then it would be easy as a mindset shift.  There is some serious barriers to retrofitting insulation onto existing buildings.
> 
> Still, sounds like my job will be busy and I'm in the right industry.



There's always something you can do though, even providing draft excluders and filling cracks can make a difference.  Landlords already have to provide an Energy Performance Certificate for new tenancies, it wouldn't be that difficult to set up an independent body that assessed private rented properties and required landlords to do what was reasonably practicable to improve insulation.  It's horrible living somewhere you can never get warm, and even worse if you're skint and can't afford huge bills - little things can make a big difference, even that shrink wrap plastic you can put over windows in the winter can make places a lot warmer, and it costs about £30 a year, but it's a tricky job to do if someone's older or disabled.  

In fact it occurs to me this is something mutual aid groups could be doing now, helping people make improvements to their homes, putting pressure on social and private landlords, even helping people sort their gardens out or applying for allotments.. There's a not entirely unfair perception of environmentalists being judgemental middle class do-gooders who make you late for work and snear at you because you shop at Iceland, and a bit of grass roots work showing that green principles are actually something that can improve our lives not diminish them might help change the conversation and bring otherwise alientated people on board,


----------



## LDC (Sep 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You'd have thought that xr would give a shit about pensioners nicked, prosecuted and convicted for actions on xr demonstrations. But I've seen no evidence they do and quite a bit to the contrary: of the pensioners I know who've been prosecuted for xr stuff not one of them was supported by that organisation, legally financially or morally



Why is the fact they're pensioners relevant? If XR's support is lacking it's irrelevant who for surely?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Why is the fact they're pensioners relevant? If XR's support is lacking it's irrelevant who for surely?


Maybe reread the post to which I was replying.


----------



## Padoir (Sep 23, 2021)

YouSir said:


> I believe you'll find they're all jobless, feckless crusties too high on the marijuana cigarettes brought with our tax money to know what day it is, the dirty unwashed bastards.


They live in tents so what the fuck are they on about. The only insulation they know’s in their sleeping bags; silly bl**dy cunts 🤫


----------



## Ranbay (Sep 24, 2021)

They all fucked off to Dover today to stop lorry's coming in or something.


----------



## Ranbay (Sep 24, 2021)

Bring in emergency powers to stop Insulate Britain protests, police tell ministers
					

Senior officers call on the Government to turn up the heat on activists as they cause fresh disruption with a sit-down blockade at Dover




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				




See


----------



## A380 (Sep 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> i went along to a local 'big green week' meeting yesterday eve and there was a woman there who is very involved in extinction rebellion, she's in her 70s and tiny and keeps glueing herself to stuff and getting arrested. I was really impressed and moved by some of the things she said.
> …


Was she the inspiration for you super glueing your fingers together the other day?


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 24, 2021)

Ranbay said:


> They all fucked off to Dover today to stop lorry's coming in or something.


will the Little Fantasist be there to defend the lorry gates or is he still inside?

"Active Patriot" seems to be seething on twitter. Get it Right Up Ye.


----------



## BillRiver (Sep 24, 2021)

Roger Hallam is getting much better at messaging/media stuff. Always thought he was a total liability but actually not bad at all here. Shows an understanding of his audience (readers of The Express).

Give us what we want and we'll be off motorways in a flash says IB founder ROGER HALLAM

"Everyone knows the situation - we have to cut carbon emissions and fast. So let's get to it and insulate and retrofit UK homes.
Each tax payer’s pound spent on this produces the biggest reduction in emissions compared to anything else. A construction industry expert told me this week it will be “the biggest engineering project” in British history. It will create hundreds of thousands of well-paid proper jobs for working people. Isn’t that what we’ve been crying out for, for decades? Providing people with the dignity of meaningful work that makes a real difference. What’s not to like about that?
And insulating homes will prevent tens of thousands of elderly people dying of the cold and damp in the winter. It’s about taking care of the most vulnerable in our communities who spent their lives providing for us. It’s our turn to provide for them.
All great stuff but why block roads? People are mad and quite right too. Who wants to get delayed going about their rightful business?
I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that every person sitting in the road hates sitting there and hates getting arrested. So why are they doing it? Because we have been asking the Government to get on with the job of dealing with the climate crisis for 30 years.
And we have all started to realise that this climate thing is not just another “issue” – weather from Hell is going to bring the economy crashing down if the Government does not act.
We have all seen the pictures of buildings being swept away in the German floods this summer, people drowning on the New York subway, forest fires burning down Greek holiday resorts.
What the hell is going on! It’s arrived. And it’s only going to get a lot worse if Boris doesn’t pull his finger out.
People are sitting in the road for a simple reason – it’s about taking responsibility.
Many are in their sixties and seventies, their fathers and grandfathers went over the top at the Somme and fought at Arnhem.
They don’t want to be lying on their deathbeds knowing that on their watch they squandered the freedoms and prosperity that their forefathers sacrificed their lives to provide.
They don’t want to look into the eyes of their grandchildren and say: “Sorry we just stood by and you will spend your lives trying to deal with the vandalism, the refugees, the floods and fires produced by our cowardice and greed”.
Let me be blunt – the endless delay and dithering on something as important as this is disgusting and pathetic.
What we need, and what Insulate Britain is crying out for, is one thing: leadership. Someone has to do the Churchill thing and tell the country it is facing “blood, sweat and tears” because that is the brutal truth.
It is what it is. Better out in than in. A stitch in time saves ninety-nine.
It’s basic British common sense to get on with the job. We all know Boris wants to step up, so come on man, show us what you’re made of.
And Insulate Britain will be off the road in a flash."


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 24, 2021)

Padoir said:


> They live in tents so what the fuck are they on about. The only insulation they know’s in their sleeping bags; silly bl**dy cunts 🤫


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

liking this one - a good target








						Farnborough Airport entrances blocked by protesters
					

Environmental activists are protesting against the emissions caused by private flights in Farnborough.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> liking this one - a good target
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agree


----------



## Leafster (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> liking this one - a good target
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are there really 30,000 private flights a year as the XR tweet says? That's a staggering amount!


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 2, 2021)

It’s “only” 82 movements a day, which is 5 an hour if the runway is operating 16 hours a day.

I’m sure a lot of super rich folk use it in preference to Heathrow.


----------



## Leafster (Oct 2, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> It’s “only” 82 movements a day, which is 5 an hour if the runway is operating 16 times a day.
> 
> I’m sure a lot of super rich folk use it in preference to Heathrow.


I was at Farnborough a few weeks back (for something entirely different) and it didn't seem anything like five flights an hour. Although I was there on a Saturday so I guess it must be much busier during the week.

I live not far from Biggin Hill Airport and they offer a six minute heli-taxi to central London so I suppose Farnborough does something similar for the super rich travellers.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 2, 2021)

Leafster said:


> I was at Farnborough a few weeks back (for something entirely different) and it didn't seem anything like five flights an hour. Although I was there on a Saturday so I guess it must be much busier during the week.
> 
> I live not far from Biggin Hill Airport and they offer a six minute heli-taxi to central London so I suppose Farnborough does something similar for the super rich travellers.


also








						Demand for Private Jets Takes Off Due to Covid
					

Concerns over coronavirus have lead to an increase in demand for private jets to fly families – and pets – across the world with...




					www.theresident.co.uk
				











						The pandemic has created a middle class private jet boom
					

With commercial airlines grounded, holidaying households are booking business flights to beat local lockdowns




					www.wired.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Oct 2, 2021)

Quelle surprise:


----------



## Leafster (Oct 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That would make sense as during the lockdowns there were still planes flying in and out of Biggin Hill. 

(Biggin Hill isn't allowed to operate scheduled or holiday charter flights)


----------



## Carvaged (Nov 26, 2021)

Amazon protests: 31 arrested as Extinction Rebellion targets retailer
					

Extinction Rebellion targets 13 sites in the UK on the retail giant's busiest day of the year.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




This is a great move by the protesters. Hopefully they can block Amazon's entire national operation.


----------



## moochedit (Nov 26, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> Amazon protests: 31 arrested as Extinction Rebellion targets retailer
> 
> 
> Extinction Rebellion targets 13 sites in the UK on the retail giant's busiest day of the year.
> ...


I drive past Amazon in Coventry on the way to work. I noticed some old bill by the entrance this morning. Didn't see any protestors though.


----------



## moochedit (Nov 26, 2021)

This says they arrived 4am. I went past about 8am so they must have been inside. Only saw the police. Didn't notice anything going home.









						Amazon protesters promise weekend of chaos at Cov distribution centre
					

The activist group, Extinction Rebellion, are planning on staying at the centre all weekend




					www.coventrytelegraph.net


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 26, 2021)

I presume they did this in collaboration with Amazon workers?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 27, 2021)

It's an odd action this, because so much of the Black Friday extra shipping will be early Christmas shopping, so it's far too early to really piss anyone off much.
They also seem to have put very little emphasis on the tax dodging.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 8, 2022)

Tower bridge this morning...





Kicking off a week long rebellion....


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tower bridge this morning...
> 
> View attachment 317666
> 
> ...


rebellion is for life, not just for easter


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 8, 2022)

Two people dangling off the side of a bridge, doesn't affect the traffic on the bridge at all, the message gets out and no one is inconvenienced.

"But we want inconvenience!"












(and City of London pigs, obvs.)


----------



## magneze (Apr 8, 2022)

Idiots (the police)


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Two people dangling off the side of a bridge, doesn't affect the traffic on the bridge at all, the message gets out and no one is inconvenienced.
> 
> "But we want inconvenience!"
> 
> ...


both of those are colp


----------



## muscovyduck (Apr 8, 2022)

If you don't have an organic inconvenience, store bought is fine


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 8, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> both of those are colp




Who's at the other end of the bridge?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 8, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who's at the other end of the bridge?


probably no one, the city of london police aren't known for their intellect

nor are the met for that matter


----------



## teqniq (Apr 8, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Two people dangling off the side of a bridge, doesn't affect the traffic on the bridge at all, the message gets out and no one is inconvenienced.
> 
> "But we want inconvenience!"
> 
> ...


So, lemme get this right. The OB have closed Tower bridge to stop ER from closing.... Tower bridge.


----------



## Chilli.s (Apr 8, 2022)

Old Billy Goat Gruff closes bridge!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 8, 2022)

Biggles must be fuming


----------



## ska invita (Apr 8, 2022)

Like









						1,000+ Scientists Worldwide Engaged in Civil Disobedience for Climate Action
					

Scientists chained themselves to the White House fence, blocked bridges and occupied buildings. Dozens were arrested.




					truthout.org


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Apr 8, 2022)

From their facebook page this evening :







 END FOSSIL FUELS NOW 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Over the last 7 days, Extinction Rebellion and the Just Stop Oil coalition have been demanding that the UK government ends fossil fuels now. Given the scale of the climate and ecological emergency, this is not an unreasonable demand. Join us at Speaker’s Corner, Hyde Park, TOMORROW at 10am.

Here’s what we’ve been doing:






 Last Friday, Extinction Rebellion and the Just Stop Oil coalition blocked 10 oil facilities across the UK: Hythe, Hamble, West London, Grays, Navigator, Purfleet, Kingsbury, BP, Esso and Buncefield. Whilst XR used boats and oil drums to block access to the terminals, Just Stop Oil sat in roads, climbed on oil tankers, and dug tunnels.





 On Saturday, the Just Stop Oil coalition revealed their tunnel network beneath the Navigator and Grays terminals. 10 young people climbed on top of oil tankers, and 7 oil terminals were blocked overall: Grays, Purfleet, Navigator, Titan, Kingsbury, BP and Esso.





 On Sunday, more people from Just Stop Oil climbed onto and blocked oil tankers, whilst a small number of people entered the loading bay at Buncefield terminal. One Just Stop Oil supporter glued himself to the mic in the middle of an interview on LBC.





 On Monday, XR returned to block Esso’s West London terminal with 2 beacons and approximately 30 people. The Just Stop Oil coalition blocked Kingsbury terminal and an access road, and it began to emerge that petrol stations were running out of fuel.





 On Tuesday, the tunnel occupation ended, and the Just Stop Oil coalition continued taking action by sitting in roads and blocking the gate to Kingsbury terminal.





 On Wednesday, 25 young people from the Just Stop Oil coalition entered the Navigator terminal, climbing on top of tankers and the loading bay. 4 people from Extinction Rebellion climbed on top of oil tankers leaving Esso’s West London terminal, whilst scientists and academics took action by covering the shell building in London with fake oil.





 On Thursday, the occupation at Navigator terminal continued, whilst 37 more Just Stop Oil supporters began to occupy the Kingsbury terminal. Doctors for Extinction Rebellion took action, with healthcare workers locking on to oil barrels outside HM Treasury.





 Today, on the eve of our mass civil resistance in London, Extinction Rebellion hung a huge banner from Tower Bridge reading “END FOSSIL FUELS NOW”.

When scientists and doctors are glueing themselves to oil company headquarters and being arrested en masse, we should take that as a warning sign, shouldn’t we?

This week has shown that we must be courageous, determined and resilient in our actions, because we are on the right side of history. Step up, sit down and refuse to be a bystander. Join us at Speaker’s Corner, Hyde Park, TOMORROW at 10am.


----------



## 8ball (Apr 9, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Like
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What proportion were climate scientists?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2022)

Just as the anti militarist argument is most convincing when made by a SAS soldier like Ben Griffin I think climate change direct action is more powerful when made by scientists...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Just as the anti militarist argument is most convincing when made by a SAS soldier like Ben Griffin


And the argument against capital punishment most persuasive when made by a murderer I suppose


----------



## teqniq (Apr 9, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Just as the anti militarist argument is most convincing when made by a SAS soldier like Ben Griffin I think climate change direct action is more powerful when made by scientists...


Cross-posted from the direct action thread in Climate change: For all their efforts it went almost completely unreported by major media outlets and in LA was overwhelmingly crushed by the filth. Capital doesn't like it when well-informed people take a stand:



E2a here's his piece in the Graun:









						Climate scientists are desperate: we’re crying, begging and getting arrested | Peter Kalmus
					

On Wednesday, I was arrested for locking myself onto an entrance to the JP Morgan Chase building in downtown LA. I can’t stand by – and nor should you




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Cross-posted from the direct action thread in Climate change: For all their efforts it went almost completely unreported by major media outlets and in LA was overwhelmingly crushed by the filth. Capital doesn't like it when well-informed people take a stand:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The problem with this sort of protest is it relies for its effect on media reporting. And as you say this went widely unnoticed


----------



## ska invita (Apr 9, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> And the argument against capital punishment most persuasive when made by a murderer I suppose


no, in that case it would be by the victim/family of someone whose crime lead to the death penalty

its really sunny out btw, lovely day


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 9, 2022)

ska invita said:


> no, in that case it would be by the victim/family of someone whose crime lead to the death penalty
> 
> its really sunny out btw, lovely day


Yeh I'm not sure you know what militarism is, war, war is the continuation of politics by other means, where I've encountered militarism, militarists it's been in opposition to people who believe in a political solution to an issue among eg the IRA. It is however a beautiful day. Just a shame I'll spend the afternoon indoors. Lovely here in Sydenham tho


----------



## CNT36 (Apr 9, 2022)

They had some guys in white coats talking on the southbank earlier but the cheers and bigger crowd were for the jugglers on the next pitch along.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 11, 2022)

Labour calls for JSO/XR to be locked up


----------



## mx wcfc (Apr 11, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Labour calls for JSO/XR to be locked up


I rarely tweet, no matter what the prococation, but I have 21 likes (so far) for my derisory reply to that on Twitter.

My previous best was 7 likes for a video of a WCFC penalty.


----------



## Dystopiary (Apr 11, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Labour calls for JSO/XR to be locked up


Signal boosting the Scum for added twattishness, the shysters.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 13, 2022)

Protest outside government office today in London by scientists


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 13, 2022)




----------



## 8ball (Apr 13, 2022)

"Science says new oil & gas = death".

Lab coat means never having to provide citations.


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 13, 2022)

Wearing a lab coat doesn't make someone a scientist and it isn't illegal to tell someone you're a scientist no matter what you do. Plus what sort of scientist? climatologist? physicist? I know people who mix homeopathic 'remedies' who claim they're scientists.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Apr 13, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Wearing a lab coat doesn't make someone a scientist and it isn't illegal to tell someone you're a scientist no matter what you do. Plus what sort of scientist? climatologist? physicist? I know people who mix homeopathic 'remedies' who claim they're scientists.


XR scientists glue hands to business department in London climate protest 

Some background on some of the people in that action


----------



## MickiQ (Apr 13, 2022)

Miss-Shelf said:


> XR scientists glue hands to business department in London climate protest
> 
> Some background on some of the people in that action


Dr. Aaron Thierry
@ThierryAaron
Graduate student at 
@CUSocSci
 - researching the role of emotionality in climate communications of social movements. PhD Ecology. Activism.

Well yes can't say I'm that impressed


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 13, 2022)

Miss-Shelf said:


> XR scientists glue hands to business department in London climate protest
> 
> Some background on some of the people in that action


If I was to glue my hands to something it'd probably be the first cop van that arrived to take people away


----------



## Artaxerxes (Apr 13, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Dr. Aaron Thierry
> @ThierryAaron
> Graduate student at
> @CUSocSci
> ...



Yeah, ecology, what a made up science...


----------



## Dystopiary (Apr 13, 2022)

In my day it was D-locks on diggers. Good on them.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 13, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> If I was to glue my hands to something it'd probably be the first cop van that arrived to take people away


That has happened.


----------



## Red Sky (Apr 13, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> That has happened.











						XR protesters glue themselves to police vans as tensions rise
					

Police remain on the scene




					www.cambridge-news.co.uk


----------



## Boru (Apr 13, 2022)

I think it's better that people are doing something to try to keep the climate change and collapse issues in the publics awareness.

Extinction Rebellion are being treated now as just another protest issue group so organising a week of events is a huge undertaking, and one they seem to be succeeding at. 

The reality of climate change is frightening and will cause much upheaval for humanity.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 13, 2022)

MickiQ said:


> Well yes can't say I'm that impressed


Well either they're talking shite like the freedom twats, or they're not, in which case, they're doing more than I am.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 14, 2022)

Miss-Shelf said:


> XR scientists glue hands to business department in London climate protest
> 
> Some background on some of the people in that action



I took my photos at 11.40. Shortly after the arrived but before some of them glued their hands to the window.

It was well organised protest.

With XR people giving out leaflets and explaining to passers Bay what this protest was about.

Given the loads of cops around Central London its good effort by XR to make this happen.

Their were van loads of cops onsite. But given the well dressed people in lab coats they looked bemused at what to do about it.

Inventive protesting by XR.


----------



## Gramsci (Apr 14, 2022)

Particularly annoying today as a cyclist was the number of pigs riding around on horses in Central London.

Is this supposed to scare off XR protestors?


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Apr 14, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Particularly annoying today as a cyclist was the number of pigs riding around on horses in Central London.
> 
> Is this supposed to scare off XR protestors?


To be fair, even I'd be freaked out by the sight of that many animals with a cunt up their back.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Just as the anti militarist argument is most convincing when made by a SAS soldier like Ben Griffin I think climate change direct action is more powerful when made by scientists...



Yeah you really need to have a long career of slaughtering people before you can figure out that it's bad.


----------



## kenny g (Apr 14, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah you really need to have a long career of slaughtering people before you can figure out that it's bad.


I suspect it may be a tad more nuanced than that. Unless you are a pacifist then anti military arguments probably extend beyond anti slaughter aspects.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 17, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Labour calls for JSO/XR to be locked up


Observer today saying the front bench "relish the fight"over banning peaceful protest...


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2022)

Anyone come across this lot?








						We’re rising up for climate justice - GND Rising
					

No more excuses. We are the generation that will win a Green New Deal. And we're not here to play - we need to make every MP feel the heat.




					www.gndrising.org
				




Im immediately suspicious of some spycop thing as you have to include a mobile number to sign up!


----------



## LDC (May 7, 2022)

Advertising for jobs on £38-40,000 so plenty of money. Labour MP Zara Sultana seems to be involved, and website talks about building towards a GND election, so suspect a Labour project maybe, or something aligned to try and 'grab the youth'?

Lol at the fact they're asking for support as 'organizing costs money' and then advertising jobs with them at £40k.

Spycops suspicion, really? Or was that a joke?


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2022)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Advertising for jobs on £38-40,000 so plenty of money. Labour MP Zara Sultana seems to be involved, and website talks about building towards a GND election, so suspect a Labour project maybe, or something aligned to try and 'grab the youth'?
> 
> Lol at the fact they're asking for support as 'organizing costs money' and then advertising jobs with them at £40k.
> 
> Spycops suspicion, really? Or was that a joke?


Half joking
I didn't read any of their gumpf tbf 
 They heckled Priti Patel today.
 It is unusual to ask for a mobile imo


----------



## LDC (May 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> It is unusual to ask for a mobile imo



Not in nearly every political group outside the anarchist ones or similar though, and I think generationally it's pretty normal among younger folks (under 30s!).


----------



## David Clapson (May 7, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Anyone come across this lot?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe it's the norm for activists to have an unregistered SIM card/burner phone? Edit: I know a couple of activists who use street names and Protonmail. I'm not an activist myself, but I'd have thought everyone is taking these steps nowadays.


----------



## ska invita (May 7, 2022)

David Clapson said:


> Maybe it's the norm for activists to have an unregistered SIM card/burner phone? Edit: I know a couple of activists who use street names and Protonmail. I'm not an activist myself, but I'd have thought everyone is taking these steps nowadays.


Yes sure that's if you're serious but this is clearly pitched at (young) concerned randoms. If they had any concerns about this there would be advice given about security


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 10, 2022)

ska invita said:


> Anyone come across this lot?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of interest:


----------



## hitmouse (May 12, 2022)

Putting this here cos it seems to sort of fit, Plan C are doing a Plan C thing in London soon, over the bank holidays, they're also asking people to register fwiw:








						Beyond | We are Plan C
					

The end of the world is already here, in fact, we’ve been living through it for a long time. Be it the threat of nuclear war, financial meltdowns, the collapse of care systems, racist policing and more and harder borders or ecological destruction: it's the fully-fledged era of the crises of...



					www.weareplanc.org
				






> The end of the world is already here, in fact, we’ve been living through it for a long time. Be it the threat of nuclear war, financial meltdowns, the collapse of care systems, racist policing and more and harder borders or ecological destruction: it’s the fully-fledged era of the crises of capitalism. The climate crisis has gone from something happening decades from now to a full-blown apocalypse in just a few years. Headlines scream flood and fire, and we’ve learned new words: firenado, weather bomb, parts per million, wet bulb temperature.
> Every day it’s clearer that we’re passing the limits of irreversible damage. We’re not going to be able to save the world as it was – but neither should we want to save the society that we have.. The multiplicity of crises is not going to be uprooted by more of the same. False solutions promised by government and business are not going to save us, but neither are tepid policy documents promising ‘green jobs’, tech solutions based on increased neo-colonial resource extraction tied with human rights abuse, nor the nihilism of dreams of our own extinction. We need to move, not ‘to’ the end of the world, but ‘beyond’ the end of the world.
> The solutions that we adopt to respond to the climate crisis can and must confront all others. They will require us to imagine how we radically transform the way our lives and societies are organised. What does this future look like and how do we get there? Where are the fault lines in the crises that we can crack open? Where are the overlaps of struggles that we can strengthen? How do we steer away from defeatist, nationalist, racist and even authoritarian responses? How do we collectively transcend the end of the world?
> Plan C invites you to a Climate Justice Convergence, on the occasion of our belated 10th anniversary. Learn and educate ourselves across workshops, discussions and talks // strategise and plan together at a movement-wide assembly // eat together at collective dinners // party together like the world is ending.
> ...


----------



## platinumsage (May 12, 2022)

I like that they‘re being optimistic and working towards an actual future, and aren’t accusing non-attendees of being complicit in mass genocide.


----------



## Rob Ray (May 21, 2022)

Alright this one I actually like, fair play to everyone involved: XR blockades private jet airport ahead of Davos talks


----------



## Red Sky (May 22, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> Alright this one I actually like, fair play to everyone involved: XR blockades private jet airport ahead of Davos talks


I'm sure they're immensely gratified  to finally have your approval.


----------



## Rob Ray (May 22, 2022)

Thank goodness you're here to defend them from my praise.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 15, 2022)

Fucking outrageous but, alas unsurprising:











						Patel’s anti-protest law ‘came from oil-funded think tank’
					

Controversial anti-protest law may have originated in briefing from Policy Exchange, our investigation reveals




					www.opendemocracy.net


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 17, 2022)

From facefuck (Extinction Rebellion UK) -

BREAKING: Doctors for XR crack glass at JP Morgan as UK declares heatwave ‘national emergency’ 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





This morning at 10 am six members of Doctors for XR carefully cracked eight panes of glass at financial services giant and investment bank JP Morgan’s offices in Canary Wharf. The group included two GPs, a child and adolescent mental health specialist, a gynecologist, a consultant psychiatrist and a dementia nurse. The medics placed stickers on the windows reading ‘in case of medical climate emergency break glass’ before carefully cracking the panes of glass near the entrance to the building. Special care was taken to ensure the safety of any staff and passersby present during the action. All six health professionals were arrested by police following the action.

The act of nonviolent civil disobedience comes in response to the British Government declaring the nation’s first ever level 4 national emergency heat red alert this week, ahead of predicted temperatures of 40 degrees celsius on Monday and Tuesday next week. A study published by the Met Office in May this year found that climate change is making heatwaves hotter and more frequent. Weather maps of the incoming heatwave are showing temperatures similar to recent Met Office predictions of predicted 2050 temperatures, the year of the UK Government’s net zero target.

Dr Juliette Brown, a Consultant Psychiatrist who took part in the action, said: “This week may see the hottest day in recorded history in the UK, putting my patients – people with dementia and with serious mental illness – at very high risk from heat stress. It’s absolutely my professional duty to sound the alarm just as so many other health workers, scientists, activists and leaders are doing. By continuing to profit from fossil fuel interests JP Morgan are knowingly fuelling this climate crisis.”
Child and adolescent mental health specialist and former mental health nurse, Ali Rowe, who took part in the action, said: “Medical activism is rooted in creating challenges and facing difficult truths when the very institutions that are there to serve us fail to do so.

“This is an act of deep love for all. We act to save lives from the imminent danger of this unprecedented heat wave that is upon us. We act now to stop the harm. It is a necessity.”


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 24, 2022)

Renewables are bad because capitalism


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 24, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Renewables are bad because capitalism



That's not what they're saying though.


----------



## edcraw (Jul 24, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> That's not what they're saying though.


platinumsage is never the brightest.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 24, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> That's not what they're saying though.



Yes it is, the wrong kind of renewables, not under the auspices of citizen assemblies.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 24, 2022)

No it isn't. Their point is that

Capitalists aren't embracing renewables because of a change of heart and cannot be relied on to do it as they should for the good of humanity, what little they are doing is because it's profitable. They follow this up with a graph showing the actual (lack of) scope of how change is being implemented.
The actions of a civilisation that was coming together to build a more sustainably managed world would be very different to what we're actually seeing.
Neither of which is in any way similar to "Renewables are bad because capitalism." Tbh if you wanted to raise a _valid_ critique you could have just said "well duh," though even so I imagine they're not aiming it at people with an existing critique of capitalism's sustainability propaganda.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 24, 2022)

Rob Ray said:


> No it isn't. Their point is that
> 
> Capitalism isn't embracing renewables because of a change of heart and cannot be relied on to do it as they should for the good of humanity, what little they are doing is because it's profitable. They follow this up with a graph showing the actual (lack of) scope of how change is being implemented.
> The actions of a civilisation that was coming together to build a more sustainably managed world would be very different to what we're actually seeing.
> Neither of which is in any way similar to "Renewables are bad because capitalism." Tbh if you wanted to raise a _valid_ critique you could have just said "well duh," though even so I imagine they're not aiming it at people with an existing critique of capitalism's sustainability propaganda.



Nonsense, their point is that capitalism and anything done under it including government-subsidised renewables is bad, because it’s not what they would do if they were in control of everything. Their “civilisation that was coming together to build a more sustainably managed world” is their vision of such a civilistaion, not the real, messy one out there full of people who aren’t them.

Climate change seems pretty low down on their agenda.


----------



## edcraw (Jul 24, 2022)

They do post a graph to show how well the move to renewables is going.



Knew you were a car nut but didn’t have you down as a climate change denier as well.


----------



## Rob Ray (Jul 24, 2022)

> Nonsense, their point is that...


As ever with your contributions to this thread, this seems to be you listening to your internal monologue on what people think, rather than reading what they've actually said. This is not a particularly useful way to approach the subject tbh. For example I could interpret the above as "what platinumsage _really_ thinks is that we should be throwing flowers at the feet of industrialists and Tories for deigning to bless us with the seed of their majestic capital." Which I assume is not your actual position, but hey, if we're going with whatever massages our preconceptions ...


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 24, 2022)

Yeah I’m not sure renewables would be rolled out more quickly under their fantasy full communism or whatever, but whatever.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Aug 18, 2022)

teuchter said:


> Pickman's model still hasn't expounded.
> 
> Seems to me that if martin-of-youtube is not Count Cuckula , then he is probably some other urban75 user who is always complaining about everyone else doing things wrong, and failing to expound.
> 
> I don't want to point any fingers but I've got my suspicions who he could be.


The paranoia about the possibility of Martin being on here is funny.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 19, 2022)

AmateurAgitator said:


> The paranoia about the possibility of Martin being on here is funny.



Clunes?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 20, 2022)

A different men behaving badly


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 2, 2022)

I see the soviets are gluing themselves to parliament today, perhaps national gallery paintings weren’t ridiculous enough.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I see the soviets are gluing themselves to parliament today, perhaps national gallery paintings weren’t ridiculous enough.
> 
> View attachment 340715


it might not be ridiculous when parliament was sitting but when the mps are not due back till monday it's not so great


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it might not be ridiculous when parliament was sitting but when the mps are not due back till monday it's not so great


It's a great stunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> It's a great stunt.


i think we'll have to differ on this one


----------



## edcraw (Sep 2, 2022)

Course it’s a good stunt - it’s got some publicity. Anyone disagreeing with the measure?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2022)

Yeah, I think it’s a good one too, and I’m usually very critical of XR.

It’s only occupying an area usually taken up by useless cunts, and makes the point that they are useless cunts, while also getting a good whack of publicity for their demand of a Citizens’ Assembly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Course it’s a good stunt - it’s got some publicity. Anyone disagreeing with the measure?


That photo is the political equivalent of 'the absinthe drinkers'. A more miserable group I've rarely seen. But if as you say publicity is the measure then the climbing on trains was their most successful escapade


----------



## edcraw (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> That photo is the political equivalent of 'the absinthe drinkers'. A more miserable group I've rarely seen. But if as you say publicity is the measure then the climbing on trains was their most successful escapade


But what do you think of the message? Just seems lazy to attack the tactics without presenting an alternative - or do you think everything’s fine?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

edcraw said:


> But what do you think of the message? Just seems lazy to attack the tactics without presenting an alternative - or do you think everything’s fine?


Oh fuck off with your present an alternative. I've no need to present an alternative at all. The message is opaque for the vast majority of people. I'd have thought a citizens assembly a really radical demand outside the parliamentary ambit, something perhaps close to a constituent assembly, certainly something in which 'we the people' were taking the initiative and bypassing parliament.  But a quick look at the xr website shows it's nothing of the kind. It seems to be something reliant on politicians to call altho xr have a great unfounded faith that a ca will prevail in the court of public opinion and thus force the hands of the politicians.

So because the message is unclear I think it's a poor stunt. As for everything being fine I've never said that, indeed for some years now I've said things are very far from fine and even if governments and companies exerted themselves we'd likely be in the shit because of things like the melting permafrost and undersea methane hydrates.

In any case I have no faith in xr given the abysmal way they've treated people I know arrested on their events, charged, and prosecuted, where they've not even sent someone to court to support them.


----------



## smmudge (Sep 2, 2022)

It was funny at least when BBC had some tory mp phone in this afternoon and say how awful it was as XR protestors just seem to want to cause most disruption to hard working people going about their everyday lives. Shame the presenter didn't ask the obvious question of who they were disrupting in this instance (some tourists going round HoP?).


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

edcraw said:


> But what do you think of the message? Just seems lazy to attack the tactics without presenting an alternative - or do you think everything’s fine?


Oh and they've already had a citizens assembly https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/committees/climate-assembly-uk/ I don't think a second go would be any more successful - what makes you think it would? Isn't that one of the definitions of insanity, doing something repeatedly and expecting a different outcome?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> That photo is the political equivalent of 'the absinthe drinkers'. A more miserable group I've rarely seen. But if as you say publicity is the measure then the *climbing on trains was their most successful escapade*



That was nuts, and so backfired.

Whilst I agree with XR's overall aims, these mainly white middle class & comfortable activists need to take a long hard look at what they are doing, FFS there's a serious fucking cost of living crisis, people are worried about how they are going to eat and heat their homes, ATM most people couldn't give a flying fuck about XF's publicity stunts, which are not going to solve anything.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That was nuts, and so backfired.
> 
> Whilst I agree with XR's overall aims, these mainly white middle class & comfortable activists need to take a long hard look at what they are doing, FFS there's a serious fucking cost of living crisis, people are worried about how they are going to eat and heat their homes, ATM most people couldn't give a flying fuck about XF's publicity stunts, which are not going to solve anything.


Yep - and they admit it backfired, most were against.

Just seems to be bizarre to have a go at anyone doing anything to raise this issue due to how fucking serious it is. Rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic etc.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh and they've already had a citizens assembly https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/committees/climate-assembly-uk/ I don't think a second go would be any more successful - what makes you think it would? Isn't that one of the definitions of insanity, doing something repeatedly and expecting a different outcome?



You may want to look up why that one was completely different to the one that XR propose.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That was nuts, and so backfired.
> 
> Whilst I agree with XR's overall aims, these mainly white middle class & comfortable activists need to take a long hard look at what they are doing, FFS there's a serious fucking cost of living crisis, people are worried about how they are going to eat and heat their homes, ATM most people couldn't give a flying fuck about XF's publicity stunts, which are not going to solve anything.


Yep - and they admit it backfired, most were against.

Just seems to be bizarre to have a go at anyone doing anything to raise this issue due to how fucking serious it is. Rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That was nuts, and so backfired.
> 
> Whilst I agree with XR's overall aims, these mainly white middle class & comfortable activists need to take a long hard look at what they are doing, FFS there's a serious fucking cost of living crisis, people are worried about how they are going to eat and heat their homes, ATM most people couldn't give a flying fuck about XF's publicity stunts, which are not going to solve anything.


Yeh of course it was nuts and backfired. But edcraw's on about publicity being the measure of success. And on that basis it was successful beyond xr's wildest dreams.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Yep - and they admit it backfired, most were against.
> 
> Just seems to be bizarre to have a go at anyone doing anything to raise this issue due to how fucking serious it is. Rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic etc.


I'll tell you what's bizarre, demanding a citizens assembly three fucking years after there was one. Didn't you know there'd been one which reported in 2020?

E2a what is the point in demanding another one?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 2, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Yep - and they admit it backfired, most were against.
> 
> Just seems to be bizarre to have a go at anyone doing anything to raise this issue due to how fucking serious it is. Rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic etc.



TBF it's a bit too late now, and even if the UK did more now it's not going have much of an impact, as we are a such a minor player in this climate change crisis.

Meanwhile, there's a fucking cost of living crisis, which no doubt isn't going to impact too much on these middle class protesters, and that is somewhat more important at this moment in time.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll tell you what's bizarre, demanding a citizens assembly three fucking years after there was one. Didn't you know there'd been one which reported in 2020?
> 
> E2a what is the point in demanding another one?



Three years after a small, unpublicised assembly with no wider public engagement, set up to ask a very constrained question, with a remit of gathering views from industry “stakeholders” moreso than regular citizens, that ignored emissions due to UK activity and commerce that are generated outside UK territory, that siloed attendees into the same themed working groups for the whole process, and had no binding elements meaning that even their very watered-down recommendations could be ignored by Government.

Which they were.

Yeah, bizarre that they are asking for something more than that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

8ball said:


> Three years after a small, unpublicised assembly with no wider public engagement, set up to ask a very constrained question, with a remit of gathering views from industry “stakeholders” moreso than regular citizens, that ignored emissions due to UK activity and commerce that are generated outside UK territory, that siloed attendees into the same themed working groups for the whole process, and had no binding elements meaning that even their very watered-down recommendations could be ignored by Government.
> 
> Which they were.
> 
> Yeah, bizarre that they are asking for something more than that.


Yeh like a 2022 ca would be any better. They asked for it, they got it, and I can't see a truss govt if it was minded to give it giving it a broader remit than a may govt.


----------



## edcraw (Sep 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> TBF it's a bit too late now, and even if the UK did more now it's not going have much of an impact, as we are a such a minor player in this climate change crisis.
> 
> Meanwhile, there's a fucking cost of living crisis, which no doubt isn't going to impact too much on these middle class protesters, and that is somewhat more important at this moment in time.


Cost of living crisis and climate change aren’t mutually exclusive - we need to deal with both. 

If you’re saying it’s too late to deal with the climate crisis then that’s pretty fucking depressing unless you’re down playing the seriousness of it.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh like a 2022 ca would be any better. They asked for it, they got it, and I can't see a truss govt if it was minded to give it giving it a broader remit than a may govt.



This was a Parliamentary select committee thing, not a granting of any XR demand.

XR’s ideas for it are very thought out and precise.  Which surprised me as they are quite shambolic and scatty on many matters.


----------



## Dystopiary (Sep 2, 2022)

smmudge said:


> It was funny at least when BBC had some tory mp phone in this afternoon and say how awful it was as XR protestors just seem to want to cause most disruption to hard working people going about their everyday lives. Shame the presenter didn't ask the obvious question of who they were disrupting in this instance (some tourists going round HoP?).


So infuriating, bloody BBC.


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 2, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> That was nuts, and so backfired.
> 
> Whilst I agree with XR's overall aims, these mainly white middle class & comfortable activists need to take a long hard look at what they are doing, FFS there's a serious fucking cost of living crisis, *people are worried about how they are going to eat and heat their homes*, ATM most people couldn't give a flying fuck about XF's publicity stunts, which are not going to solve anything.


Yeah! These bloody climate activists should stop messing around and launch a proper campaign, demanding something like, I dunno, properly insulating all homes in Britain, something like that.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh like a 2022 ca would be any better. They asked for it, they got it, and I can't see a truss govt if it was minded to give it giving it a broader remit than a may govt.


why are you straw manning this? what you claim happened isn't what XR are asking for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> why are you straw manning this? what you claim happened isn't what XR are asking for.


Why are you whining instead of showing me how wrong I am?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> why are you straw manning this? what you claim happened isn't what XR are asking for.



It’s a Citizen’s Assembly on the right general subject to be fair.  If PM is approaching this in good faith, the XR working group is really approachable and have regular Q&A’s and are also receptive to suggestions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 2, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Yeah! These bloody climate activists should stop messing around and launch a proper campaign, demanding something like, I dunno, properly insulating all homes in Britain, something like that.



It would be good if they did that, a proper campaign. Instead they glued themselves to a few roads and then got bored of the whole insulation thing. Why put in the legwork campaigning for insulation when you can glue yourself to The Hay Wain or whatever.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Why are you whining instead of showing me how wrong I am?


You don't even know what the word means, try again cunt


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> You don't even know what the word means, try again cunt


Wind your neck in. Now.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 2, 2022)

editor said:


> Wind you neck in. Now.


no thanks, i've had enough of his mewling. He wants to accuse people of whining he can look in the mirror first since all the miserable wanker ever does


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> no thanks, i've had enough of his mewling. He wants to accuse people of whining he can look in the mirror first since all the miserable wanker ever does


OK then, please feel to continue and accrue warning points.


----------



## Karl Masks (Sep 2, 2022)

What XR said about the 2020 assembly can be read here: Citizens' Assembly - Extinction Rebellion UK

In short they regard it as a stepping stone


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> What XR said about the 2020 assembly can be read here: Citizens' Assembly - Extinction Rebellion UK
> 
> In short they regard it as a stepping stone


Yeh it wasn't what they wanted. As the rolling stones sang, you can't always get what you want. Do you think today's miserable antic has hastened the sort of ca xr want? Asfaic there's what, eight years to hold it in for it to make any sort of meaningful impact? I can't see it happening, certainly not before 2024


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> no thanks, i've had enough of his mewling. He wants to accuse people of whining he can look in the mirror first since all the miserable wanker ever does


What's this look in the mirror puling about? Your second sentence is missing something, like so many of your posts.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> .



Fair point.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 2, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> It would be good if they did that, a proper campaign. Instead they glued themselves to a few roads and then got bored of the whole insulation thing. Why put in the legwork campaigning for insulation when you can glue yourself to The Hay Wain or whatever.



The insulation thing was always part of a plan to have a rotating set of causes in terms of the non-XR bit.  They are now Just Stop Oil.  Maybe next year they’ll be something else.

 Not that I think this is necessarily a good idea.


----------



## muscovyduck (Sep 3, 2022)

Glad this thread has popped up again. Don't want to give away my location but I've been working with a local community led campaign that's built up a bit of media profile and momentum and discovered last week the local XR group are seriously piggybacking off our work to promote themselves. Its difficult to tell if they're presenting a really similar sounding campaign or just trying to imply the community led thing is their thing. They're using very typical cobweb-left tactics like putting up a stall and asking people to "sign our petition" but to be fair they have also produced some good leaflets to educate people about the situation we're campaigning about. Whole thing feels very sectarian.  I think the plan is to just ignore them but seriously how disappointing


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 3, 2022)

8ball said:


> The insulation thing was always part of a plan to have a rotating set of causes in terms of the non-XR bit.  They are now Just Stop Oil.  Maybe next year they’ll be something else.
> 
> Not that I think this is necessarily a good idea.



Well, it's seems they're now focusing on citizens assemblies ahead of stuff like insulation and fossil fuels.

Their citizens assemblies really are shit btw. They will be commanded by an opaquely selected "oversight panel" and run by a "co-ordinating group" selected by competitive tendering that will be responsible for selecting and structuring the evidence and developing a policy framework. The whole thing is basically XR giving a few randoms (actually laboriously selected to comply with identity politics) a Hobson's choice.

Apparently this is equally as important as their other two core demands ("telling the truth about climate change", and "acting now").


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 3, 2022)

It’s an attempt to counter lobbying by big firms in a quasi-democratic way led by people who take the climate crisis seriously


----------



## 8ball (Sep 3, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Well, it's seems they're now focusing on citizens assemblies ahead of stuff like insulation and fossil fuels.
> 
> Their citizens assemblies really are shit btw. They will be commanded by an opaquely selected "oversight panel" and run by a "co-ordinating group" selected by competitive tendering that will be responsible for selecting and structuring the evidence and developing a policy framework. The whole thing is basically XR giving a few randoms (actually laboriously selected to comply with identity politics) a Hobson's choice.
> 
> Apparently this is equally as important as their other two core demands ("telling the truth about climate change", and "acting now").



Wrong on all 3 counts as it happens.
Quite impressive.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 3, 2022)

8ball said:


> Wrong on all 3 counts as it happens.
> Quite impressive.



All 3 literally derived form their own publications, so maybe take it up with them.


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 3, 2022)

8ball said:


> The insulation thing was always part of a plan to have a rotating set of causes in terms of the non-XR bit.  They are now Just Stop Oil.  Maybe next year they’ll be something else.
> .



Do you know if Animal Rebellion is one of their things. Going into supermarkets and emptying the milk all over the floor. Sounds like the kind of inspirational tactics in solidarity with local workers that they like to use.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 3, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> All 3 literally derived form their own publications, so maybe take it up with them.



I think the word “derived” may have been given a harsh remit here.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 3, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Do you know if Animal Rebellion is one of their things. Going into supermarkets and emptying the milk all over the floor. Sounds like the kind of inspirational tactics in solidarity with local workers that they like to use.



Animal Rebellion are linked to the whole shebang (more closely to XR, of which JSO/IB is an offshoot).

I think some of XR view them as the annoying little brother.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 5, 2022)

Bizarre Trumpian move from Liz Truss in her speech today hitting out at fake enemies, including XR, to desperately try to work up some weird Tory base. Desperate.









						Liz Truss begs warring Tories to unite against 'anti-growth coalition'
					

Trying to draw a line under days of damaging splits over tax rates and benefits, Liz Truss told activists in Birmingham she is determined to take the country through the 'tempest' to a 'new era'.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 16, 2022)

Excellent quality on these adverts all over the district line.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 16, 2022)

Yes, although that "what will it take to stop this?" is just asking for someone to write "tomato soup and superglue" after it.


----------



## Karl Masks (Oct 16, 2022)

I'm not sure I agree with Animal Rebellion stealing milk and pouring it over the floor, over products. Easier to defend in places like Harrods, but this in principle is utterly counter productive and wrong headed


----------



## xenon (Oct 16, 2022)

I know not XR, but the tipping shit over the Captain Tom statue and soup on Van Gogh painting. Utterly fuckwitted. Would not be surprised if they were groomed into such actions by state assets.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 16, 2022)

xenon said:


> I know not XR, but the tipping shit over the Captain Tom statue and soup on Van Gogh painting. Utterly fuckwitted. Would not be surprised if they were groomed into such actions by state assets.


I don't think it's a good idea to throw such accusations around without evidence. The simpler explanation is surely more plausible: that they have developed a politics in which to get climate action they first need to get people to PAY ATTENTION, and thus they must do anything necessary to grab the headlines.

Unfortunately I think it's a mistaken idea, in that lack of attention isn't the problem. The problem is that those who would like to take action have no power, and those who have power don't want to take action. It's true there is a large bunch of people between those groups who don't pay much attention, but those are mostly people who would also have little power if they did pay attention - that's part of the reason they don't bother.

The problem is surely how to get leverage on those with power, or take their power away from them. I don't think XR and its offshoots are able to grapple with this problem very well, partly because they started with a duff theory of change - that if enough people get arrested the authorities will be pressured into acting.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 16, 2022)




----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> Excellent quality on these adverts all over the district line.
> 
> View attachment 347389



Did Greece have a record-breaking wildfire season recently?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> Did Greece have a record-breaking wildfire season recently?



21









						Greece fires: PM apologises as blazes rage on Evia island
					

Kyriakos Mitsotakis says Greece is facing an unprecedented natural disaster, as public anger grows.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

Artaxerxes said:


> 21
> 
> 
> 
> ...



21 records broken?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> 21 records broken?


2021


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> 2021



Wow, that must be _all_ the records!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> Wow, that must be _all_ the records!


no, no it isn't


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> no, no it isn't
> 
> View attachment 347534



I bet they’re not all Greek records.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2022)

8ball said:


> I bet they’re not all Greek records.


nana mouskouri alone has released more than 200 albums and untold singles


----------



## 8ball (Oct 17, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> nana mouskouri alone has released more than 200 albums and untold singles



That is really impressive tbf.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2022)

I've only just heard that the QE2 bridge at Dartford has been closed since yesterday morning, because a couple of clowns climbed it.

I don't get why they didn't just leave them up there until they got bored, and kept the bridge open.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I've only just heard that the QE2 bridge at Dartford has been closed since yesterday morning, because a couple of clowns climbed it.
> 
> I don't get why they didn't just leave them up there until they got bored, and kept the bridge open.



I thought maybe in case they fell off and landed on a car.  Seems would have been reasonable to put up a “possible falling Tarquins” sign and open the two middle lanes at least.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Oct 18, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> Do you know if Animal Rebellion is one of their things. Going into supermarkets and emptying the milk all over the floor. Sounds like the kind of inspirational tactics in solidarity with local workers that they like to use.


Do you not have a lawn to manicure or something


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 18, 2022)

No point keeping the bridge open because according to one of the protesters today, in a couple of years we’ll all be irreversibly extinct.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2022)

8ball said:


> I thought maybe in case they fell off and landed on a car.  Seems would have been reasonable to put up a “possible falling Tarquins” sign and open the two middle lanes at least.



Well there's always a risk of people jumping off motorway or railway bridges, these loons seemed to have been well secured, so no great risk of them falling.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2022)

No idea which country this is, by they sure as hell know how to deal with twats that glue themselves to the road. 

View attachment 1q.mp4


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> No idea which country this is, by they sure as hell know how to deal with twats that glue themselves to the road.
> 
> View attachment 347729



Isn’t that France?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 18, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> No point keeping the bridge open because according to one of the protesters today, in a couple of years we’ll all be irreversibly extinct.



Extinction tends to be like that.  I guess you never know what DNA tech the bees will develop.


----------



## Dystopiary (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> No idea which country this is, by they sure as hell know how to deal with twats that glue themselves to the road.
> 
> View attachment 347729


That's seriously grim. Yes, it's France. ACAB.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 18, 2022)

This is the fucking Home Secretary! This country’s screwed!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 18, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> That's seriously grim. Yes, it's France. ACAB.



It's not grim at all, the road was cleared in minutes, that lass hardly reacted when she lost a layer of skin, that twat of a bloke totally over reacted for the benefit of the cameras.

You have a right to peaceful protest and indeed to glue yourself to the road, the police have a right to remove you to protect the rights of the public to go about their business.

Losing a layer of skin, because you're a twat, is down to your actions, and is far from life threatening.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 18, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> It's not grim at all, the road was cleared in minutes, that lass hardly reacted when she lost a layer of skin, that twat of a bloke totally over reacted for the benefit of the cameras.
> 
> You have a right to peaceful protest and indeed to glue yourself to the road, the police have a right to remove you to protect the rights of the public to go about their business.
> 
> Losing a layer of skin, because you're a twat, is down to your actions, and is far from life threatening.


Right wing climate change denying nutter.

You’ll prob be in the cabinet soon!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 19, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Right wing climate change denying nutter.
> 
> You’ll prob be in the cabinet soon!



Do fuck off, child.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> …that lass hardly reacted when she lost a layer of skin, that twat of a bloke totally over reacted for the benefit of the cameras…



Well, I think it’s a fine thing that French top-flight footballers have involved themselves in the protests.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 19, 2022)

Fuck me. There are a lot of (wilfully) stupid people.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 19, 2022)

I don't know about her personal oil use but she clearly went to public school which of course doesn't matter at all because protest movements divorced from the working class are blah blah etc


----------



## edcraw (Oct 19, 2022)

platinumsage said:


> I don't know about her personal oil use but she clearly went to public school which of course doesn't matter at all because protest movements divorced from the working class are blah blah etc


You regretting voting for Truss yet?


----------



## maomao (Oct 19, 2022)

edcraw said:


> This is the fucking Home Secretary! This country’s screwed!



Is 'tofu eating' not a racial epithet, tofu being primarily eaten by Chinese people? I'm pretty sure 'curry eating' would rightly be stepped on pretty swiftly. Where would I direct my complaint?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Fuck me. There are a lot of (wilfully) stupid people.




Actually she has convinced me that these actions are having a very powerful effect.

Last week one of the group was saying we have two years to save the planet, but with a simple combination of soup-throwing and bridge-climbing that has increased to between three and four years.


----------



## edcraw (Oct 19, 2022)

maomao said:


> Is 'tofu eating' not a racial epithet, tofu being primarily eaten by Chinese people? I'm pretty sure 'curry eating' would rightly be stepped on pretty swiftly. Where would I direct my complaint?


Think it’s just a phrase to throw in to try and stoke a culture war rather than actual do anything. A favoured tactic of climate change deniers as platinumsage makes clear.

The use of woke derogatorily tends to be the sign of a racist though, or at least a fucking idiot.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 19, 2022)

maomao said:


> Is 'tofu eating' not a racial epithet, tofu being primarily eaten by Chinese people? I'm pretty sure 'curry eating' would rightly be stepped on pretty swiftly. Where would I direct my complaint?



This mad insistence it’s still the 70s and vegetarianism is a character flaw must be costing them votes at this point. Along with this “how can he afford a phone/tv?” Attitude. 


Bet 90% of MPs drink lattes to so targeting that’s a bit weird.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 19, 2022)

It's the latest iteration of 'sandal wearing' or 'knit your own muesli' and it's even more ignorant and 
stupid.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 19, 2022)

maomao said:


> Is 'tofu eating' not a racial epithet, tofu being primarily eaten by Chinese people? I'm pretty sure 'curry eating' would rightly be stepped on pretty swiftly. Where would I direct my complaint?


Not in the sense that it is meant here. It is more directed at 'lefty Guardian reader alternative lifestyle types'. Completely pathetic dogwhistle shite though.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 19, 2022)

She should have said yogurt-weaving yurt dwellers. Of course if there were any actual working-class people doing this sort of stunt, such pejorative epithets wouldn't have worked, she'd have had to go with benefit scroungers or rent-a-mob communists.


----------



## maomao (Oct 19, 2022)

Well yes, but my family are literally Chinese and literally eat tofu as a cultural characteristic so having it used as a term of derision is offensive to us.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2022)

What’s the going rate to rent a communist mob these days, anyway?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 19, 2022)

8ball said:


> What’s the going rate to rent a communist mob these days, anyway?




My rates are low, will mob for food


----------



## 8ball (Oct 19, 2022)

maomao said:


> Well yes, but my family are literally Chinese and literally eat tofu as a cultural characteristic so having it used as a term of derision is offensive to us.



She should have thrown in “milk drinkers” and “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” to get a proper storm going.

Her constituency office address is:

14 East Street
Fareham
Hampshire
PO16 0BN


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2022)

edcraw said:


> This is the fucking Home Secretary! This country’s screwed!



She lives on the blood of virgins


----------



## edcraw (Oct 19, 2022)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> Do fuck off, child.


He was wrong on the climate change denial, & the claim that you're right wing, to be fair.

The "nutter" bit? The jury is out...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 24, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> He was wrong on the climate change denial, & the claim that you're right wing, to be fair.
> 
> The "nutter" bit? The jury is out...



I am a self-confessed nutter.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

cupid_stunt said:


> I am a self-confessed nutter.


Fair does! I mean, you live on the south coast, so...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Nov 22, 2022)

Targeting the vermin and cancer of the IAE


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Nov 22, 2022)

Why has it taken so long for him to do anything about it? If it's only his first time getting arrested. Not much of a flex.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 5, 2022)

He spent his life being a writer and a reader, and just tacked activist on the end recently.


----------



## edcraw (Dec 28, 2022)

Such fragile egos.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 28, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Such fragile egos.



33 penis extensions more like. The likes of Andrew Tate display one of the big problems with a capitalist society, that of a rabid, selfish individualism (which comes with an extreme sense of entitlement and hierarchy) . Its offensive and vile and very damaging to society. And unfortunately much of the right these days thinks that being an offensive bellend means you've somehow 'won the argument.' Nah Andrew you're just a lousy piece of shit.


----------



## Leafster (Dec 28, 2022)

I've just seen Greta's reply.


----------



## Dystopiary (Dec 28, 2022)

Leafster said:


> I've just seen Greta's reply.



Ha! Silly fella. I normally dislike "small dick" insults, but that tweet was practically screaming, as AmateurAgitator said, "penis extensions."

It's only likes on twitter, though he seems petty enough to be bothered -
His tweet from yesterday morning: 143.1K likes
Greta's tweet from this morning: 1.4M likes


----------



## edcraw (Dec 28, 2022)

Dystopiary said:


> Ha! Silly fella. I normally dislike "small dick" insults, but that tweet was practically screaming, as AmateurAgitator said, "penis extenstions."
> 
> It's only likes on twitter, though he seems petty enough to be bothered -
> His tweet from yesterday morning: 143.1K likes
> Greta's tweet from this morning: 1.4M likes


It’s because of bots according to his retweet 😂

These “alpha males” are always SOOOOO fragile!


----------



## edcraw (Dec 28, 2022)

🤮


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 28, 2022)

I'm getting fucking tired of these cunts


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 28, 2022)

edcraw said:


> It’s because of bots according to his retweet 😂
> 
> These “alpha males” are always SOOOOO fragile!
> 
> View attachment 357570


Jackson Hinkle, the creator of 'MAGA communism'. A bellend putin apologist and twat


----------



## 8ball (Dec 28, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> 'MAGA communism'



Wtf


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 28, 2022)

8ball said:


> Wtf


HE's just an authoritarian bellend with no clue who carries water for Putin. He basically believes (ie grifts) the lie that Trump was a working class hero, an outsider who ruffles feathers and gets shit done


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2022)

edcraw said:


> Such fragile egos.



It's a ridiculous manchild version of pulling a girl's hair and sticking out your tongue as you run away. He definitely fancies her btw.


----------



## edcraw (Dec 29, 2022)

You don’t have to be an absolute dick to have an issue with XR but it sure seems to help!


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 29, 2022)

edcraw said:


> You don’t have to be an absolute dick to have an issue with XR but it sure seems to help!



This is the saddest thing I have seen on the internet in quite a while.

What a twat lol.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 29, 2022)

edcraw said:


> You don’t have to be an absolute dick to have an issue with XR but it sure seems to help!



fuck what a boring knob he is. Someone should tell him that wanking on about how right you are isn't the best way to get a girl's attention lol


----------



## LDC (Dec 29, 2022)

It's really very, very depressing that he (and his ilk) gets so much support and likes etc. Does genuinely make me despair for the future, things are pretty fucking broken.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Dec 29, 2022)

Andrew Tate 'arrested' in Romania
					

The self-styled misogynist internet celebrity Andrew Tate has reportedly been arrested in Romania on human trafficking charges.




					www.lbc.co.uk
				






Spoiler



Apparently Romanian police were able to locate him due to the pizza restaurant on the boxes in his come back tweet, which if true is really fucking funny.


----------



## edcraw (Dec 30, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Andrew Tate 'arrested' in Romania
> 
> 
> The self-styled misogynist internet celebrity Andrew Tate has reportedly been arrested in Romania on human trafficking charges.
> ...


Fuck! What a truly awful person.


----------



## Leafster (Dec 30, 2022)

ruffneck23 said:


> Andrew Tate 'arrested' in Romania
> 
> 
> The self-styled misogynist internet celebrity Andrew Tate has reportedly been arrested in Romania on human trafficking charges.
> ...


And Greta's response


----------



## Karl Masks (Dec 30, 2022)

It's also what happens when you're a fucking rapist cunt who is a cunt with a weird neck, the weird necked cunt.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 30, 2022)

Leafster said:


> And Greta's response




That is a lovely burn there if the pizza box thing turns out to be true.


----------



## CNT36 (Dec 30, 2022)

#PizzaTate

Eta The collective wit of twitter seems to have beat me to it.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2022)

8ball said:


> That is a lovely burn there if the pizza box thing turns out to be true.


If true, it doesn't say much for the investigative capabilities of the Romanian authorities.


----------



## T & P (Dec 30, 2022)

edcraw said:


> 🤮
> 
> View attachment 357574


This has aged well...


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 30, 2022)




----------



## kabbes (Dec 30, 2022)

I am shocked that a misogynistic selfish scumbag has turned out to be implicated in a human trafficking scheme


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 6, 2023)

XR have quit civil disobedience. It seems to have been missed on here, I've certainly not seen it mentioned. Here's Red and Black Telly's thoughts on it :


----------



## 8ball (Jan 6, 2023)

AmateurAgitator said:


> XR have quit civil disobedience. It seems to have been missed on here, I've certainly not seen it mentioned. Here's Red and Black Telly's thoughts on it :




I haven’t seen that reported anywhere.  Maybe the media ignored it.

Do you have a reliable link?


----------



## LDC (Jan 6, 2023)

It's been covered in a few places, including in lots of news coverage. Not as simple as giving up civil disobedience though, but that's not stopping Martin doing and saying his normal thing.

It's clearly mentioned on their website btw.









						WE QUIT - Extinction Rebellion UK
					

As we ring in the new year, we make a controversial resolution to temporarily shift away from public disruption as a primary tactic. We recognise and celebrate the power of disruption to raise the alarm and believe that constantly evolving tactics is a necessary approach.




					extinctionrebellion.uk


----------



## 8ball (Jan 6, 2023)

LDC said:


> It's been covered in a few places, including in lots of news coverage. Not as simple as giving up civil disobedience though, but that's not stopping Martin doing and saying his normal thing.
> 
> It's clearly mentioned on their website btw.
> 
> ...



Cheers


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 6, 2023)

8ball said:


> I haven’t seen that reported anywhere.  Maybe the media ignored it.
> 
> Do you have a reliable link?


I wouldn't say Red and Black Telly is unreliable but theres this from XR themselves









						Extinction Rebellion UK's New Year's Resolution: WE QUIT - Extinction Rebellion UK
					

As we ring in the new year, we make a controversial resolution to temporarily shift away from public disruption as a primary tactic. We recognise and celebrate the power of disruption to raise the alarm and believe that constantly evolving tactics is a necessary approach. What’s needed now most...




					extinctionrebellion.uk


----------



## 8ball (Jan 6, 2023)

AmateurAgitator said:


> I wouldn't say Red and Black Telly is unreliable but theres this from XR themselves
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, it’s not especially specific.

It looks like they’re basically talking about giving up on the 3.5% thing.


----------



## kabbes (Saturday at 7:17 AM)

Extinction Ask Nicely?


----------



## fucthest8 (Saturday at 7:49 AM)

8ball said:


> I haven’t seen that reported anywhere.  Maybe the media ignored it.
> 
> Do you have a reliable link?



Quite apart from their own site, all of these from Sunday.






						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				












						Extinction Rebellion 'to temporarily shift away from public disruption'
					

The climate activists are aiming to attract more people to their cause through a less confrontational approach, admitting "very little has changed".




					news.sky.com
				












						Extinction Rebellion announces move away from disruptive tactics
					

Climate protest group says temporary shift will ‘prioritise relationships over roadblocks’




					www.theguardian.com
				




E2A and the Daily Mail, but I refuse to click on that one


----------



## CNT36 (Saturday at 9:36 AM)

8ball said:


> I haven’t seen that reported anywhere.  Maybe the media ignored it.
> 
> Do you have a reliable link?


No, but the guardian have reported it.


----------



## Brainaddict (Sunday at 11:05 AM)

I think it's wise to shift tactics for a bit. The govt/press really have the bit in their teeth stirring up hatred of them so it's good to do something less predictable. However I wonder if they could come up with something a bit more creative than march/protest in central London.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sunday at 11:08 AM)

Brainaddict said:


> I think it's wise to shift tactics for a bit. The govt/press really have the bit in their teeth stirring up hatred of them so it's good to do something less predictable. However I wonder if they could come up with something a bit more creative than march/protest in central London.


So in order to do something less predictable they're doing something very predictable


----------



## platinumsage (Sunday at 11:11 AM)

Seems like their big idea is a demo one tenth the size of the Iraq War one, which as we all know was a massive success:









						The Big One - Extinction Rebellion UK
					

Sign up for The Big One and help us make history. From 21 April, 100,000 people will surround the Houses of Parliament. Make sure you’re there for the longest, largest climate protest the UK has seen.




					extinctionrebellion.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Sunday at 11:20 AM)

platinumsage said:


> Seems like their big idea is a demo one tenth the size of the Iraq War one, which as we all know was a massive success:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent muddled thinking


----------



## hitmouse (Monday at 1:11 PM)

8ball said:


> That is a lovely burn there if the pizza box thing turns out to be true.


By the way, much as we would all love the pizza box thing to be true, appears that it is in fact another example of the "twitter crashed that insulin company"-style wishful myth:








						Alas, Andrew Tate’s Pizza Box Did Not Lead to His Arrest in Romania
					

Plus, people are eating their Christmas trees and caviar-topped Doritos are so hot right now.




					www.bonappetit.com
				











						Romanian court extends detention of ex-kickboxer Andrew Tate in rape, human trafficking case
					

A Romanian court agreed late on Friday to extend the detention of Andrew Tate by 30 days, after the divisive internet personality was arrested on suspicion of human trafficking, rape and forming an organised crime group.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## DaveCinzano (Monday at 2:14 PM)

hitmouse said:


> By the way, much as we would all love the pizza box thing to be true, appears that it is in fact another example of the "twitter crashed that insulin company"-style wishful myth:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But dogs _can't_ look up


----------



## hitmouse (Monday at 2:21 PM)

DaveCinzano said:


> But dogs _can't_ look up


Which makes them extremely vulnerable to misinformation?


----------



## LDC (Monday at 2:23 PM)

hitmouse said:


> Which makes them extremely vulnerable to misinformation?



Just sore necks.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Monday at 2:27 PM)

hitmouse said:


> Which makes them extremely vulnerable to misinformation?


 Never mind that, look in my hand - treats!


----------



## hitmouse (Monday at 2:28 PM)

Can hypnotised dogs look up?


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## DaveCinzano (Monday at 2:37 PM)

hitmouse said:


> Can hypnotised dogs look up?


danny la rouge?


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## killer b (Monday at 3:01 PM)

hitmouse said:


> By the way, much as we would all love the pizza box thing to be true, appears that it is in fact another example of the "twitter crashed that insulin company"-style wishful myth:


I couldn't be bothered even checking it was so obviously bollocks tbf


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