# How do you pronounce Greenwich?



## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

That is the question


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## Belushi (Feb 14, 2013)

Grennitch innit.


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## Belushi (Feb 14, 2013)

Greenwitch is American tourists.


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## frogwoman (Feb 14, 2013)

does anyone say greenwitch?


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Grennitch innit.


That's what I thought, but not if you are local


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> does anyone say greenwitch?


I just said it


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## Belushi (Feb 14, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> That's what I thought, but not if you are local


 
Half my family are locals and they say Grennitch


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## 8115 (Feb 14, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> That's what I thought, but not if you are local


 
What do locals say?  Grinnitch?  Is that because they're all too posh?


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## cesare (Feb 14, 2013)

You're missing Grenidge from your poll


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## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2013)

worchestershire


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 14, 2013)

Americans are funny. Silly people and their inability to automatically know how to pronounce things the way we do even though they live in a place where those things are pronounced differently.

They always emphasise the 'shire' in county names.

I liked that bit in an Eddie Izzard routine when he said to an American audience that we pronounce leisure 'lie-zure-eye-ay'.


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## Greebo (Feb 14, 2013)

Grennitch

Now for the really tricky one - how do you pronounce Marylebone?


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## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Americans are funny. Silly people and their inability to automatically know how to pronounce things the way we do even though they live in a place where those things are pronounced differently.
> 
> They always emphasise the 'shire' in county names.
> 
> I liked that bit in an Eddie Izzard routine when he said to an American audience that we pronounce leisure 'lie-zure-eye-ay'.


 
you'd think they'd have practise with strange place names given that anywhere over 400 years old is named in the language of the people they nicked it from


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## Dr Nookie (Feb 14, 2013)

My ex was from New Eltham which isn't far from Greenwich and he pronounced it Grinnich, so I suppose if that's how the locals pronounce it, technically that's the right way!

That said, he did pronounce Birmingham (the Nookie motherland) as 'Birmunum' which frankly is a flogging offence!


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

Estuary types say grinnitch


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Grennitch
> 
> Now for the really tricky one - how do you pronounce Marylebone?


marleybon


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> That is the question


yeh but you allow multiple choice - why?


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## joustmaster (Feb 14, 2013)

I don't put a T in it when I say it. 

But the I think tret is a word (treated)


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

8115 said:


> What do locals say?  Grinnitch?  Is that because they're all too posh?


No, people who say grinnitch are far from posh


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## Greebo (Feb 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> marleybon


I wouldn't.


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## seeformiles (Feb 14, 2013)

When I was a kid (with no idea as to where Greenwich was), I said "green witch" - but was swiftly corrected by my old man.


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## Yetman (Feb 14, 2013)

Greenwich, the way it should be said. Like Chiswick. Or the Thames. (Not chizzick or 'the tems' )

Pop down to the Quayside at Greenwich to look over the Thames init


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> I don't put a T in it when I say it.
> 
> But the I think tret is a word (treated)


You don't pronounce the t. Grennitch as in witch


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## Greebo (Feb 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but you allow multiple choice - why?


Maybe (just maybe) hoping that some would give a serious vote as well as the stud muffin option?


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but you allow multiple choice - why?


For obvious reasons


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## Yetman (Feb 14, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> But the I think tret is a word (treated)


 
It's one of the most used words on Jeremy Kyle. Along with 'At the end of the day' 

At the end of t'day he nevoh tret me propah Jeremoh, YE NEVER TRET ME PROPAH Y'BASTID


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## Crispy (Feb 14, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Grennitch
> 
> Now for the really tricky one - how do you pronounce Marylebone?


Mar-lee-bun

Grosvenor?


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> For obvious reasons


the reasons being you cocked up the poll then.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> the reasons being you cocked up the poll then.


Nope.
Piss off will you


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

and theydon bois, how would you pronounce that?


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## joustmaster (Feb 14, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> You don't pronounce the t. Grennitch as in witch


gren ich


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## quimcunx (Feb 14, 2013)

marlibin

thaydon boys.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

I would pronounce it as if I was French but that is apparently wrong and it is pronounced like it is the name of a boy band


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## Belushi (Feb 14, 2013)

Pickman's model Orang Utan

Why dont you pair just get a bloody room


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> gren ich


The t is necessary to guide pronunciation as one might pronounce it differently if you wrote like you did


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Pickman's model Orang Utan
> 
> Why dont you pair just get a bloody room


you mean get a room like in the famous story from hulme when gangsters locked a man and a rottweiler into a room for a week and let the dog out after?


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## Dr Nookie (Feb 14, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Pickman's model Orang Utan
> 
> Why dont you pair just get a bloody room


Can I watch?


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

Dr Nookie said:


> Can I watch?


you can film this empty room for all i care


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## joustmaster (Feb 14, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> The t is necessary to guide pronunciation as one might pronounce it differently if you wrote like you did


ɡrɪnɪdʒ


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## kittyP (Feb 14, 2013)

Damn I didn't realise it was mulitiple vote 

I say both Grinnich and Grennich.
I am not sure really under what circumstances I say either. I guess it depends on what I am saying and who I am talking to. 
The way I speak changes all the time.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

I was born in Greenwich, but I prounounce it Grenidge. My friend who was also born there pronounces it Grinnitch. She lived there, but I didn't. I'm guessing I pronounce it wrong 

or maybe she says Grinidge


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## Pingu (Feb 14, 2013)

lon - don


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## smorodina (Feb 14, 2013)

grinnitch...

*wanders off contemplating the idea of starting an alternative thread titled 
"How do you pronounce _Ladbroke Grove_? Discuss" *


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## Balham (Feb 14, 2013)

Grennich - no 't'. 

Marylebone, I think I pronounce it very quickly, almost as written (or typed as is the case here).


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Damn I didn't realise it was mulitiple vote
> 
> I say both Grinnich and Grennich.
> I am not sure really under what circumstances I say either. I guess it depends on what I am saying and who I am talking to.
> The way I speak changes all the time.


from potahto to potayto, no doubt


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> from potahto to potayto, no doubt


 
to spud


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

Balham said:


> Grennich - no 't'.
> 
> Marylebone, I think I pronounce it very quickly, almost as written (or typed as is the case here).


No one pronounces the t anyway - it's just a guide to pronounce that -ch sound like witch instead of quiche or loch


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## clicker (Feb 14, 2013)

I am mile away and say grinnidge....so do the two people with me and they are grinnidge born and bred.


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## girasol (Feb 14, 2013)

Leicester Square is a really tricky one, I spent a few months saying Lycester...


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## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2013)

girasol said:


> Leicester Square is a really tricky one, I spent a few months saying Lycester...


haha


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

girasol said:


> Leicester Square is a really tricky one, I spent a few months saying Lycester...


 
What about Worcester, Gloucester etc?


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## neonwilderness (Feb 14, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Americans are funny. Silly people and their inability to automatically know how to pronounce things the way we do even though they live in a place where those things are pronounced differently.


Places like Edinborough are a bit inexcusable, but then there's some places like Milngavie where the spelling bears almost no relation to the pronunciation


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## joustmaster (Feb 14, 2013)

Pingu said:


> lon - don


lun dn


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## girasol (Feb 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> haha


 
You would be amazed at the amount of people who do that!


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## girasol (Feb 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What about Worcester, Gloucester etc?


 
I didn't know about those places until after I knew how to pronounce Leicester


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

neonwilderness said:


> Places like Edinborough are a bit inexcusable, but then there's some places like Milngavie where the spelling bears almost no relation to the pronunciation


 
Bit like Ireland then


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## Greebo (Feb 14, 2013)

Balham said:


> <snip>Marylebone, I think I pronounce it very quickly, almost as written (or typed as is the case here).


"Marry luh b'n" here, which is probably wrong.


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## twentythreedom (Feb 14, 2013)

Cholmondley Featherstonehaugh

I think I was at school with him


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## Greebo (Feb 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Bit like Ireland then


And bits of Wales.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Greebo said:


> "Marry luh b'n" here Which is probably wrong.


 
That's how I say it.  None of this Marlybone bollocks

Now, it's time Himalayas and Pakistan was standardised


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Greebo said:


> And bits of Wales.


 
oh definitely Wales, with all those consonants and lack of vowels


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

Pakistan? Surely there is only one way to pronounce Pakistan?


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## Greebo (Feb 14, 2013)

twentythreedom said:


> Cholmondley Featherstonehaugh
> 
> I think I was at school with him


You mean Chumley Fanshaw? He was a thoroughly decent bloke, always insisted on buying me a drink, even if he had to "borrow" a tenner from me first.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Pakistan? Surely there is only one way to pronounce Pakistan?


 
There's a certain newsreader (can't remember which one), and there may be more than one, who have renamed it Pa*r*kista*r*n


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## kittyP (Feb 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's how I say it. None of this Marlybone bollocks
> 
> Now, it's time Himalayas and Pakistan was standardised


 
I think I say Ma-ra-le-bone but as someone else said I say it really quickly and hope no one notices if it is wrong


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## Garek (Feb 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's a certain newsreader (can't remember which one), and there may be more than one, who have renamed it Pa*r*kista*r*n


 
Aren't you just confusing a long Southern posh 'a', which has a long 'ah' sound, as an 'r'?


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

Marily[n]bun.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Garek said:


> Aren't you just confusing a long Southern posh 'a', which has a long 'ah' sound, as an 'r'?


 
Nope.  I'm a Southerner


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

Think that's the correct pronunciation, noticed it myself.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

hm, I'm not the only one that's noticed

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1102181


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Pakistan_pronunciation.ogg


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Cid said:


> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Pakistan_pronunciation.ogg


 
I don't hear an R in that pronunciation


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## Garek (Feb 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Nope. I'm a Southerner


 
Fair play.


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tv/resources/pronunciation.shtml


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Cid said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tv/resources/pronunciation.shtml


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## Fez909 (Feb 14, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> I don't put a T in it when I say it.
> 
> But the I think tret is a word (treated)


 
I was chatting to an old school friend on the train who is now a BBC news presenter/reporter and she was telling me how she got told off for saying _tret_ on air. She argued her case with her boss saying it's a real word, the past participle of _treat_, but she had to accept it wasn't proper English in the end.

Fucking Middlesbrough, teaching us how to speak wrong!


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## Biddlybee (Feb 14, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Mar-lee-bun
> 
> Grosvenor?


I'd say Mar-lee-bone  fella says marily-bun though and he did live there.

Grove-ner

I'm still not sure about Holborn though


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


>


 
As in the BBC will tend to go for consistency in pronunciation... So rather than having 'Pack-ih-stan' (which, for all I know, may sound as ridiculous as I-ran) they might recommend a pronunciation close to the original. Of course newsreaders don't have consistent accents and tend to have English as a first language, so you're not going to see them trying to pronounce it in exactly the same way as a native Urdu speaker.


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## joustmaster (Feb 14, 2013)

Biddlybee said:


> I'd say Mar-lee-bone  fella says marily-bun though and he did live there.
> 
> Grove-ner
> 
> I'm still not sure about Holborn though


'o b'n


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Biddlybee said:


> I'd say Mar-lee-bone  fella says marily-bun though and he did live there.
> 
> Grove-ner
> 
> I'm still not sure about Holborn though


 
Ho-bun (although not u as in bun but more like the don in London) 

Sort of


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## Biddlybee (Feb 14, 2013)

I go with, up near Chancery Lane...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Cid said:


> As in the BBC will tend to go for consistency in pronunciation... So rather than having 'Pack-ih-stan' (which, for all I know, may sound as ridiculous as I-ran) they might recommend a pronunciation close to the original. Of course newsreaders don't have consistent accents and tend to have English as a first language, so you're not going to see them trying to pronounce it in exactly the same way as a native Urdu speaker.


 
Oh yes, I realise that, but Parkistan is totally different to Pakistan, even if the Pakistan pronunciation does have a long A, rather than an R


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 14, 2013)

I'd go for "Grinnidge" but without pronouncing the D properly

not any variety with "itch"


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## TruXta (Feb 14, 2013)

How do you pronounce Cirencester then?


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

Sirensester.


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## TruXta (Feb 14, 2013)

Cid said:


> Sirensester.


Siren as in seeren or siren?


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

It's definitely Grennitch.


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Siren as in seeren or siren?


 
Siren.


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## Crispy (Feb 14, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Siren as in seeren or siren?


 
Sigh Run Sess Ter


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

Grinnidge sounds like a Brummie pronunciation.


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## Cid (Feb 14, 2013)

Mind you I think 'itch' isn't quite right, bit softer.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2013)

Yetman said:


> Greenwich, the way it should be said. Like Chiswick. Or the Thames. (Not chizzick or 'the tems' )


 
But 'Thames' is pronounced 'tems' surely 

I've never heard anyone, no matter how posh, pronounce 'Thames' as it's written. Not even Americans.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

Cid said:


> Mind you I think 'itch' isn't quite right, bit softer.


 
I'd go more for idge


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2013)

Now about those people who say 'Shrowsbury' when they mean 'Shrewsbury', what the fuck is going on there? Even the train announcer says 'Shrowsbury', despite the clear lack of an 'O' anywhere in the actual name of the place.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> But 'Thames' is pronounced 'tems' surely
> 
> I've never heard anyone, no matter how posh, pronounce 'Thames' as it's written. Not even Americans.


 
but maybe that's because it's a well established name, considering how busy it was centuries ago. 

As for the name itself:



> "The origin of the name 'Thames' is not fully known. Before the Romans came it was called 'Tems' but the Romans latinised it and called it 'Tamesis'. Various names have appeared since then. The name 'Tamyse' was popular in Anglo-Saxon times but it has been known as 'Thames' since c.1600. When and why the 'h' was introduced is not known. It was once suggested that the Roman word 'Tamesis' derived from the joining of the word 'Isis', an alternative name used by some for the River above / around Oxford, and the 'Thame', the tributary that meets near Dorchester but there is no foundation for this idea. Most etymologists now appear to agree that the name 'Thames' is derived from the Sanskrit (ancient Indian) word 'Tamasa' meaning 'dark river' or 'dark water' and that the use of the word spread from India through the Celts to Britain.


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## spanglechick (Feb 14, 2013)

I grew up just down the road and am more likely to say something between grinnidge and grinnitch.  I can't remember my phonetic alphabet, but it's a sharpened "idge" sound (grinnidch?).

Anyway, sometimes I might say grennidge/itch/idch, because my pure Bexleyheath diction has been sullied by mixing with a whole bunch of provincial types.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 14, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Now about those people who say 'Shrowsbury' when they mean 'Shrewsbury', what the fuck is going on there? Even the train announcer says 'Shrowsbury', despite the clear lack of an 'O' anywhere in the actual name of the place.


 
I'm guessing pissed off with the way Streatham Place and St Leonard's Church is pronounced on bus announcements.  They're pronounced right, but it's where the accent is on a particular part of the word that's bothering me


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## Yetman (Feb 14, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> But 'Thames' is pronounced 'tems' surely
> 
> I've never heard anyone, no matter how posh, pronounce 'Thames' as it's written. Not even Americans.


 
I just remember seeing 'Thames Television' on TV lots as a kid and always read it as 'Thames' rather than 'Tems' (it took me a long time to realise that there wasn't two rivers and that they were in fact the same thing ) so I blame that!


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## SaskiaJayne (Feb 14, 2013)

5 votes for grinnitch=only 5 estuary speakers on here.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I grew up just down the road and am more likely to say something between grinnidge and grinnitch.  I can't remember my phonetic alphabet, but it's a sharpened "idge" sound (grinnidch?).
> 
> Anyway, sometimes I might say grennidge/itch/idch, because my pure Bexleyheath diction has been sullied by mixing with a whole bunch of provincial types.


One of the people who prompted this thread is from Bexleyheath. Curious.
Other people, from Millwall, Rainham and Crayford also say Grinnitch.


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## Maurice Picarda (Feb 14, 2013)

I was mocked the other day for pronouncing Belvoir (the posh squash firm) as if it was an aquatic rodent. I'm sure I'm right, though. It's very posh squash.


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## Favelado (Feb 14, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Now about those people who say 'Shrowsbury' when they mean 'Shrewsbury', what the fuck is going on there? Even the train announcer says 'Shrowsbury', despite the clear lack of an 'O' anywhere in the actual name of the place.


 
English isn't very consistent in its pronuncation nor very phonetic at times. It doesn't matter if there's an "O" there or not.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ith_counterintuitive_pronunciations#section_1


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## Belushi (Feb 14, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> I was mocked the other day for pronouncing Belvoir (the posh squash firm) as if it was an aquatic rodent. I'm sure I'm right, though. It's very posh squash.


 
Belvoir Castle is indeed pronounced like the aquatic rodent, Belvoir Close in SE9 is pronounced like it's spelled.


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## coley (Feb 14, 2013)

Grennich, marlibone,


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## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Now about those people who say 'Shrowsbury' when they mean 'Shrewsbury', what the fuck is going on there? Even the train announcer says 'Shrowsbury', despite the clear lack of an 'O' anywhere in the actual name of the place.


Except the county is Shropshire, suggesting that the county town (for which the county is named) may once have been pronounced with an oʊ.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

Favelado said:


> English isn't very consistent in its pronuncation nor very phonetic at times. It doesn't matter if there's an "O" there or not.


Indeed.  As residents of Milngavie will tell you.


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## toblerone3 (Feb 14, 2013)

seeformiles said:


> When I was a kid (with no idea as to where Greenwich was), I said "green witch" - but was swiftly corrected by my old man.


 
Is it possible to get a bus from Greenwich to Aldwych.






or a train via London Bridge to Sandwich


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

neonwilderness said:


> ...then there's some places like Milngavie where the spelling bears almost no relation to the pronunciation


 
I lived there for awhile. Glaswegians are always nicely surprised when I pronounce it correctly.


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

Balham said:


> Grennich - no 't'.


 
How do you mean "no 't'"?

Which
Witch

Are you saying you manage to pronounce those differently?

According to Cambridge Dictionaries, they're phonetically identical:

/wɪtʃ/


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## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:


> Which
> Witch
> 
> Are you saying you manage to pronounce those differently?
> ...


They're not phonetically identical: the first is *wh*ich, the second, *w*itch.

See also *wh*ere and *w*ear, etc..


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

danny la rouge said:


> They're not phonetically identical: the first is *wh*ich, the second, *w*itch.
> 
> See also *wh*ere and *w*ear, etc..


 
In this case we're talking about the end of the word, not the 'h' bit.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:


> In this case we're talking about the end of the word


I agree those are identical, but I disagree with the reported view of the "Cambridge Dictionaries" that "they're phonetically identical: /wɪtʃ/".


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

I've just looked in the Oxford dictionary - which and witch are phonetically identical there too.


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## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:


> I've just looked in the Oxford dictionary - which and witch are phonetically identical there too.


In *wh*ich case, the Oxford dictionary is giving undue weight to a particular regional accent.


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## Hocus Eye. (Feb 14, 2013)

There is a village in South Devon on the river Dart, called Ditisham but it is pronounced by the locals as Ditsum. A way around the coast is the port of Teignmouth on the river Teign. The river is pronounced Teen but the town Tinmuth. Years ago you would hear Teignmouth mentioned in the national news for some event, a flood or problems with shipping and they would usually call it Tinemouth to rhyme with Tynemouth a whole other port. Since then they have either got fed up of letters of complaint, or perhaps someone from the Beeb has a second home there, but nowadays they pronounce it correctly which delights my ears.

I await their pronunciation of Kingskerswell which stands nearby, in news stories of the Kingskerswell by-pass which after 50 years waiting is now about to be built. I will be disappointed if they get it right.


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

danny la rouge said:


> In *wh*ich case, the Oxford dictionary is giving undue weight to a particular regional accent.


 
Which region is that? 

Anyway, kind of missing my original point - it was about the end of the word, not the beginning.


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## tendril (Feb 14, 2013)

The corkers for the yanks are Leicestershire and worcestershire


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## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:
			
		

> Which region is that?



Wherever it is that they don't aspirate their wh.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

danny la rouge said:


> Wherever it is that they don't aspirate their wh.


It's YOUR pronunciation that's quaint and parochial!


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

What's your accent danny?


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

I imagine him sounding like Fulton Mackay


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## Hocus Eye. (Feb 14, 2013)

Sorry to interrupt the dialogue about where were wear, but it is only very finicky people who expect 'where' to be pronounced with an h superimposed over the w. It is hard to do it, because you have to get the mouth into the shape of an h sound so that the w and h are expressed simultaneously and not put the h before the w as that sounds pretentious. Also there is probably no phonetic symbol for it. As for 'where' and 'were' I pronounce them quite differently 'were' I pronounce in a similar way to 'whirr' while I pronounce 'where' more like ware. This brings us neatly back to place names as in Ware.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

Only fernickety contrarian scotchmen say it. I imagine teuchter aspirates his wh's.


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

Which still leaves the mystery of the poster explicitly saying they don't pronounce the t... in our grennitch example. Baffled by that one.


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## tendril (Feb 14, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Sorry to interrupt the dialogue about where were wear, but it is only very finicky people who expect 'where' to be pronounced with an h superimposed over the w. It is hard to do it, because you have to get the mouth into the shape of an h sound so that the w and h are expressed simultaneously and not put the h before the w as that sounds pretentious. Also there is probably no phonetic symbol for it. As for 'where' and 'were' I pronounce them quite differently 'were' I pronounce in a similar way to 'whirr' while I pronounce 'where' more like ware. This brings us neatly back to place names as in Ware.


and parliament and aviary both have an 'i' in them if pronounced correctly


----------



## tendril (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:


> Which still leaves the mystery of the poster explicitly saying they don't pronounce the t... in our grennitch example. Baffled by that one.


you would, I presume, pronounce the end of it the same way as you would pronounce itch


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:


> Which still leaves the mystery of the poster explicitly saying they don't pronounce the t... in our grennitch example. Baffled by that one.


I'm baffled by the grennidge people. Eh what? You jest


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 14, 2013)

tendril said:


> and parliament and aviary both have an 'i' in them if pronounced correctly


I usually pronounce parliament as parlament but can't see any way to pronounce aviary without using the i even though it comes out a bit like a y. Government is of course 'gumment' (not really) and one of my favourite hate words is 'Jannary' for the first month of the year. Febyouwary is another popular one but I prefer the almost correct Febrewery.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:
			
		

> What's your accent danny?



The right one.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 14, 2013)

Danny and his ancestors are the reason that the Romans built Hadrians Wall. It was not the warring raids but the funny speech had them terrified out of their wits.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 14, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:
			
		

> I usually pronounce parliament as parlament but can't see any way to pronounce aviary without using the i even though it comes out a bit like a y. Government is of course 'gumment' (not really) and one of my favourite hate words is 'Jannary' for the first month of the year. Febyouwary is another popular one but I prefer the almost correct Febrewery.



One that irritates me is the now pervasive "mischievi-ous". There's no i after the v. It's miss chev ose.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 14, 2013)

danny la rouge said:


> One that irritates me is the now pervasive "mischievi-ous". There's no i after the v. It's miss chev ose.


Hear hear, it is almost universal now. In the Midlands they have Mischievous Night but I have heard it called Mischievious Night which is mischief enough.

Another one publicised even by politicians is 'nuclear' being pronounced 'nucular'. It is quite easy to learn - it is 'new clear'. To add insult to injury they treat the word as if it was a noun. It is an adjective, look at the ar ending. You can have nuclear power but you can't have 'nuclear' on its own.


----------



## joustmaster (Feb 14, 2013)

What about four and for?
I pronounce them the same (N Yorkshire). But the Mrs pronounces the quite different, (Lancashire)


----------



## weepiper (Feb 14, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> What about four and for?
> I pronounce them the same (N Yorkshire). But the Mrs pronounces the quite different, (Lancashire)


 
four rhymes with door. For rhymes with the first syllable of horrid.


----------



## joustmaster (Feb 14, 2013)

weepiper said:


> four rhymes with door. For rhymes with the first syllable of horrid.


When she says four, it sounds like it was a W in it


----------



## weepiper (Feb 14, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> When she says four, it sounds like it was a W in it


 
That pronunciation is common in the south of Scotland too


----------



## Balham (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:


> How do you mean "no 't'"?
> 
> Which
> Witch
> ...


Three of the options in the poll had a 't' in them.


----------



## Ponyutd (Feb 14, 2013)

The wonderful Fulton McKay was heading straight for my brother in a crowded high street. My brother caught his eye and couldn't be a hundred % sure it was him.
Fulton pulled his shoulders back and doing his best Mr McKay said..... "Yes! it's me laddie."


----------



## oryx (Feb 14, 2013)

Me - from the north originally - I say grennitch.

Partner - from Deptford, right next to area in question - he says grinnitch.

He says the latter is more akin to the 'green' in how it's written down, if that makes sense. I can see it does.


----------



## Dr Nookie (Feb 14, 2013)

As a Midlander I have to confirm we pronounce Shrewsbury as Shrowsbury. But then, there's no logic to English pronunciation. I mean look at the word yacht ffs!


----------



## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> ...the Mrs pronounces the quite different, (Lancashire)


 
"Have you got any turps?"

"What kind of turps? Audio turps or video turps?"


----------



## Dr Nookie (Feb 14, 2013)

On a slight tangent, I did get the giggles once on the bus in Streatham when a South African asked which was the stop for the 'Arse Rink'. (I'm a child, I know. Sorry!)


----------



## weepiper (Feb 14, 2013)

My dad's from Shrewsbury and he pronounces it 'shrew'. Seems to be one of these ones where you can choose


----------



## coley (Feb 14, 2013)

Dr Nookie said:


> On a slight tangent, I did get the giggles once on the bus in Streatham when a South African asked which was the stop for the 'Arse Rink'. (I'm a child, I know. Sorry!)


NZdrs speak in a very similar accent, it's arsey cold


----------



## abe11825 (Feb 14, 2013)

Depending on how thickly laid out my "r" droppage is for the day, grinnitch or grennitch has always been sufficient. Then again, my dropped letter has screwed me out of a lot of conversation because I'm either having to repeat myself or posh up my syllables. 



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What about Worcester, Gloucester etc?


wusstah, glahstah



SpookyFrank said:


> Now about those people who say 'Shrowsbury' when they mean 'Shrewsbury', what the fuck is going on there? Even the train announcer says 'Shrowsbury', despite the clear lack of an 'O' anywhere in the actual name of the place.


shrewsbree.


----------



## zenie (Feb 15, 2013)

Grennidge


----------



## xenon (Feb 15, 2013)

It's Grennich Gren - itch.




tendril said:


> The corkers for the yanks are Leicestershire and worcestershire



Thanks to Mark and Lard, I can't help saying them like Woreces-ses-sester-shire.


----------



## Favelado (Feb 15, 2013)

joustmaster said:


> What about four and for?
> I pronounce them the same (N Yorkshire). But the Mrs pronounces the quite different, (Lancashire)


 
It's not all of Lancashire that. She must be Blackburn or Burnley or Bolton or something. There are flat vowels in Lancashire too.


----------



## Favelado (Feb 15, 2013)

danny la rouge said:


> They're not phonetically identical: the first is *wh*ich, the second, *w*itch.
> 
> See also *wh*ere and *w*ear, etc..


 
They are phonetically identical. Why don't people understand that English spelling is really weird. If you are pronouncing the "h" then you are in minority of about 0.5% or from the 19th Century.

I've done this before but it's always worth posting.

Say these combinations of "ough".

TOUGH
COUGH
BOUGH
THOUGH
THOUGHT
THROUGH
THOROUGH
HICCOUGH

They are all different aren't they? So learn the phonetic alphabet or just accept spelling is misleading.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 15, 2013)

Favelado said:


> They are phonetically identical. Why don't people understand that English spelling is really weird. If you are pronouncing the "h" then you are in minority of about 0.5% or from the 19th Century.
> 
> I've done this before but it's always worth posting.
> 
> ...


 
You rude twat. You're talking crap, btw, and I've got a degree in English Language, so stick that in your smug pipe and smoke it. 'Wh' pronunciation is normal in Scotland, Ireland and large parts of America and Canada.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 15, 2013)

Favelado said:


> They are phonetically identical. Why don't people understand that English spelling is really weird. If you are pronouncing the "h" then you are in minority of about 0.5% or from the 19th Century.
> 
> I've done this before but it's always worth posting.
> 
> ...


----------



## Favelado (Feb 15, 2013)

weepiper said:


> You rude twat. You're talking crap, btw, and I've got a degree in English Language, so stick that in your smug pipe and smoke it. 'Wh' pronunciation is normal in Scotland, Ireland and large parts of America and Canada.


 
Scotland and Ireland? That will be about 12 million people and that's if we're being generous and saying everyone there pronounces it (they don't).

America and Canada? Where? Let's be even more generous and say that gives you another 25 million people (again not likely as I don't hear it in American and Canadian accents often). We're up to 37 million out of 1.2 billion English speakers and that's if we diddle all of the stats in your favour to the extent that they're not true anymore.

That 0.5% will be about right you know.

Well done on your degree. Smug cunt.

I'm just an English teacher.


----------



## Favelado (Feb 15, 2013)

Here - great Wiki on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_wh

17% of North Americans use at least a trace of it. So maybe you've got some 70 million odd people out of the 1-1.5 billion English speakers using it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

[quote="abe11825, post: 11977084, member: 44794"

glahstah

[/quote]


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Feb 15, 2013)

Is this something to do with the Greenwich that stole Christmas?


----------



## Epona (Feb 15, 2013)

Local dialects vary. Not talking about "Grennich" (as I pronounce it) because I don't know the dialects of that area - but where I come from in rural Surrey, you could tell what village people were from by the way they spoke, and by the way they pronounced the names of the villages. For example, people from Albury would say the name of the village Gomshall as you would imagine it to be pronounced from the spelling. People from Gomshall would refer to it as Gumpsha' (with a very distinct 'p' in the middle of the name). There was a wide variance in pronunciation within a 2 mile radius.

Therefore I don't think that anyone here who didn't grow up in Greenwich is qualified to dictate how it ought to be pronounced.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 15, 2013)

Nonsense.


----------



## seeformiles (Feb 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> It's YOUR pronunciation that's quaint and parochial!


 
Tbf OU, you hail from a county where "h"s are in extremely short supply - esp. at the beginning of words. 

(I did teaching practice in Halton Moor where your typical 8-yr old wrote "He has"  as "E as"..)


----------



## weepiper (Feb 15, 2013)

Favelado said:


> Scotland and Ireland? That will be about 12 million people and that's if we're being generous and saying everyone there pronounces it (they don't).
> 
> America and Canada? Where? Let's be even more generous and say that gives you another 25 million people (again not likely as I don't hear it in American and Canadian accents often). We're up to 37 million out of 1.2 billion English speakers and that's if we diddle all of the stats in your favour to the extent that they're not true anymore.
> 
> ...


 
You started it with the smug cunt stuff. Funnily people get a bit defensive when they're told the way and most of their friends and family pronounce something doesn't exist.


----------



## paolo (Feb 15, 2013)

I think the OED will be using the most common form. That doesn't mean other variations are wrong, but nor does it mean the OED are being anti-Scottish, as I think Danny was implying.

A Scottish version of the dictionary would still be fraught with issues. Should Edinburgh style pronunciation prevail over Glaswegian? What about other Scottish accents?


----------



## abe11825 (Feb 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


>


 

Gimme something else... I'll Bostonise it!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

abe11825 said:


> Gimme something else... I'll Bostonise it!


 
Take your pick from this link Orang Utan posted up 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ith_counterintuitive_pronunciations#section_1


----------



## abe11825 (Feb 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Take your pick from this link Orang Utan posted up
> 
> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ith_counterintuitive_pronunciations#section_1


 

I have to know how to pronounce some of them for real, before I start dropping letters. haha

"Durham" = "derim"
"Frocester" = "Frahstah"
 "Norwich" = "Norwitch" ... much like the which witch is right debate...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

Durham
http://www.forvo.com/word/durham/

Frocester - I assume like Frost but with an er on the end
Norwich - the W is silent


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 15, 2013)

I thought Durham was pronounced Durrum?


----------



## tony.c (Feb 15, 2013)

Epona said:


> Therefore I don't think that anyone here who didn't grow up in Greenwich is qualified to dictate how it ought to be pronounced.


Except London cabbies.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought Durham was pronounced Durrum?


 
Yeah, they seem to pronounce the U differently, but I couldn't explain how to pronounce the U, so I just shoved that up, and that's not how I pronounce it, but I guess if the people who recorded it are northerners, the U may sound more like that

Hm, not explained that very well, but ykwim


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

Hope I never have to ask directions for this place
*Laoghaire Buadhach*

*http://www.forvo.com/word/laoghaire_buadhach/#ga*


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 15, 2013)

Favelado said:


> I'm just an English teacher.


Then you should know how to read what people have said, rather than misunderstand it entirely.


----------



## Remus Harbank (Feb 15, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Americans are funny. Silly people and their inability to automatically know how to pronounce things the way we do even though they live in a place where those things are pronounced differently.


New Yorkers still say Grennitch Village. That said I love hearing Brits mispronounce Los Angeles (ie Los Angeleeees) and Houston Street (ie Euston Street) respectively.


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 15, 2013)

Favelado said:


> Say these combinations of "ough".
> 
> TOUGH
> COUGH
> ...


 


From 2:10...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

Remus Harbank said:


> New Yorkers still say Grennitch Village. That said I love hearing Brits mispronounce Los Angeles (ie Los Angeleeees) and Houston Street (ie Euston Street) respectively.


 
Los Angel-is
LA


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> From 2:10...






and giving the V sign


----------



## scifisam (Feb 15, 2013)

Remus Harbank said:


> New Yorkers still say Grennitch Village. That said I love hearing Brits mispronounce Los Angeles (ie Los Angeleeees) and Houston Street (ie Euston Street) respectively.


 
That's how the Los Angelinos I know pronounce it.


----------



## Remus Harbank (Feb 15, 2013)

scifisam said:


> That's how the Los Angelinos I know pronounce it.


US dictionary with sample and here


----------



## Yelkcub (Feb 15, 2013)

GRA-wich


----------



## scifisam (Feb 15, 2013)

Remus Harbank said:


> US dictionary with sample and here


 
I don't care. I have several good friends who live in Los Angeles (and are from there originally), and I know how they pronounce it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 15, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I don't care. I have several good friends who live in Los Angeles (and are from there originally), and I know how they pronounce it.


 
Well when I was there, I was taught Angel-is, not Angel-eeeeeeeeese


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well when I was there, I was taught Angel-is, not Angel-eeeeeeeeese


----------



## Remus Harbank (Feb 15, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I don't care. I have several good friends who live in Los Angeles (and are from there originally), and I know how they pronounce it.


No worries. LA is a big place


----------



## lang rabbie (Feb 17, 2013)

Grin-idge when talking to people who were actually born anywhere near the town.
Gren-idge when dealing with everyone else.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 17, 2013)

toblerone3 said:


> Is it possible to get a bus from Greenwich to Aldwych.


 
Yes, the 188



toblerone3 said:


> or a train via London Bridge to Sandwich


 
again, yes

although if you go by road and take a bit of a detour you go through Finglesham which has this sign post


----------



## maomao (Feb 17, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Sorry to interrupt the dialogue about where were wear, but it is only very finicky people who expect 'where' to be pronounced with an h superimposed over the w. It is hard to do it, because you have to get the mouth into the shape of an h sound so that the w and h are expressed simultaneously and not put the h before the w as that sounds pretentious. Also there is probably no phonetic symbol for it. As for 'where' and 'were' I pronounce them quite differently 'were' I pronounce in a similar way to 'whirr' while I pronounce 'where' more like ware. This brings us neatly back to place names as in Ware.


There is a phonetic symbol for it, and a fancy pants name (voiceless labio-velar approximant) and even a wikipedia page

I pronounce it despite being a Londoner, it's a habit I got from my Scottish mother.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 17, 2013)

lang rabbie said:


> Grin-idge when talking to people who were actually born anywhere near the town.
> Gren-idge when dealing with everyone else.


Yeah, like Ruislip. Really old inhabitants always used to say it Rooze-lip.


----------



## LordAlwold (Feb 24, 2013)

lang rabbie said:


> Grin-idge when talking to people who were actually born anywhere near the town.
> Gren-idge when dealing with everyone else.


 Have to agree with that. I was born in Greenwich and grew up in Lewisham, everyone I knew from that area said 'Grinnidge' as do I. Definitely a locals thing. Now, how do you pronounce 'Shrewsbury'?


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> I grew up just down the road and am more likely to say something between grinnidge and grinnitch. I can't remember my phonetic alphabet, but it's a sharpened "idge" sound (grinnidch?).
> 
> Anyway, sometimes I might say grennidge/itch/idch, because my pure Bexleyheath diction has been sullied by mixing with a whole bunch of provincial types.


 
What she said 

ETA: Although I never really had Bexleyheath diction, I used to get the piss taken out of me for sounding posh.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

Sure no one ends it in -idge? That doesn't make sense!


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Sure no one ends it in -idge? That doesn't make sense!


 
Yeah I hear it all the time.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

As in ridge or squidge or rummage?


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> As in ridge or squidge or rummage?


 
Squidge


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> What she said
> 
> ETA: Although I never really had Bexleyheath diction, I used to get the piss taken out of me for sounding posh.


yesh - our accent is like that. when i was at acting school i said to my vocal coach that i kind of have two accents that i fluctuate between. The Cheryl Baker-type, and the Jude Law (to name two people from the area whose accents illustrate my point). Anyway, the accent coach said it was really common for people from that kind of suburban area, to have those dual accents.

and Orang Utan - yes. A bit like rummage (which is less sharp than the end of 'squidge', the 'a' in rummage being a schwah sound).


heh - although kitty reckons it *is* sharper.


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> heh - although kitty reckons it *is* sharper.


 
Oooh Jude Law really? 

I have heard people pronounce it in all kinds of ways including the "A bit like rummage (which is less sharp than the end of 'squidge', the 'a' in rummage being a schwah sound)" Like you said and like squidge.


----------



## maomao (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> the 'a' in rummage being a schwah sound).


 
No it ain't, it's ɹʌm.ɪdʒ not ɹʌm.ədʒ


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

maomao said:


> No it ain't, it's ɹʌm.ɪdʒ not ɹʌm.ədʒ


in a south east london accent, it's a schwah.  Thanks for the phonetics, though - it seems i can still read them if not write.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

They all sound the same to me, which is why I listed them


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> They all sound the same to me, which is why I listed them


 
But not like squidge as you said "surely no body says it like that"...?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

Rummage is pronounced rummidge.
But no one says grennidge. I refuse to believe it


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Rummage is pronounced rummidge.
> But no one says grennidge. I refuse to believe it


noth grennidge. grinnidge!


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> But not like squidge as you said "surely no body says it like that"...?


What? I don't think anyone pronounced Greenwich to rhyme with squidge rummage ridge


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> noth grennidge. grinnidge!


Nah! Never heard anyone say that. It always rhymes with witch


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> What? I don't think anyone pronounced Greenwich to rhyme with squidge rummage ridge


 
Well they do


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Nah! Never heard anyone say that. It always rhymes with witch


next time i see you, ask me to say it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

I'll believe it when I hear it


----------



## maomao (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> in a south east london accent, it's a schwah. Thanks for the phonetics, though - it seems i can still read them if not write.


I can't write them I copy and paste them.

I am an East Londoner and regularly speak to South East Londoners and have never heard anyone say ɹʌm.ədʒ. Is it a one off pronunciation or do village and pillage undergo the same transformation in South East London?


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

Village
Pillage
Rummage
they all rhyme!


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

maomao said:


> I can't write them I copy and paste them.
> 
> I am an East Londoner and regularly speak to South East Londoners and have never heard anyone say ɹʌm.ədʒ. Is it a one off pronunciation or do village and pillage undergo the same transformation in South East London?


maybe it's just me, then.  but rummage is different to village and pillage.


----------



## maomao (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Village
> Pillage
> Rummage
> they all rhyme!


Village and pillage are feminine rhymes. Rummage is an odd masculine rhyme because it's unusual to rhyme a non-stressed syllable.


----------



## maomao (Feb 24, 2013)

It's a 'weak' rhyme. I looked it up


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> maybe it's just me, then.  but rummage is different to village and pillage.


They are EXACTLY the same to me


----------



## weepiper (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> maybe it's just me, then. but rummage is different to village and pillage.


 
It's because the vowel in the first syllable of rummage is a low back vowel so the vowel in the rhyme gets lowered to match it. In village and pillage it's a high front vowel so the vowel in the rhyme is higher. Say 'rummage' and then 'rimmage' to see what i mean


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

They sound the same too


----------



## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

weepiper said:


> It's because the vowel in the first syllable of rummage is a low back vowel so the vowel in the rhyme gets lowered to match it. In village and pillage it's a high front vowel so the vowel in the rhyme is higher. Say 'rummage' and then 'rimmage' to see what i mean


yeah - i'd come to the same conclusion, but cba to explain...


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Village
> Pillage
> Rummage
> they all rhyme!


 
Not to me they don't


----------



## weepiper (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> They sound the same too


 
Not in most accents. Maybe in yours. I remember being really totally confused in lectures when they said that 'pull' and 'pool' were a phonemic pair because in my accent they're identical.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

Eh? I am well confused here now.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Not to me they don't


How are they different?


----------



## maomao (Feb 24, 2013)

weepiper said:


> It's because the vowel in the first syllable of rummage is a low back vowel so the vowel in the rhyme gets lowered to match it. In village and pillage it's a high front vowel so the vowel in the rhyme is higher. Say 'rummage' and then 'rimmage' to see what i mean


English doesn't have vowel harmony. Scottish English doesn't have it either. 

May I ask where you got that from because I did two years of phonology at uni with a lecturer who specialised in vowel harmonic languages and I've never seen an example in English. Vowels can affect neighbouring consonants but not vowels in other syllables.


----------



## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> How are they different?


Because they sound really different when I say them. 
Sorry I don't know how to explain it any more than that.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 24, 2013)

maomao said:


> English doesn't have vowel harmony. Scottish English doesn't have it either.
> 
> May I ask where you got that from because I did two years of phonology at uni with a lecturer who specialised in vowel harmonic languages and I've never seen an example in English. Vowels can affect neighbouring consonants but not vowels in other syllables.


 
It doesn't have proper vowel harmony like Gaelic does no, but it affects unstressed vowels enough to hear it in my accent *shrug*


----------



## maomao (Feb 24, 2013)

weepiper said:


> It doesn't have proper vowel harmony like Gaelic does no, but it affects unstressed vowels enough to hear it in my accent *shrug*


I'm half Scottish (Edinburgh, and I spend a lot of time there) and I'm sitting here doing it in my best Edinburgh accent (not the shit one I do to wind my mum up) and I can't get the difference. I also don't get the mechanism of the difference. it's either an 'ee' or a schwa, I don't get what the other vowel would be.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Because they sound really different when I say them.
> Sorry I don't know how to explain it any more than that.


How do you say rummage?


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## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> How do you say rummage?


I can't type it exactly how I say it. 
The nuances are too slight to type.
Sorry


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## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)




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## weepiper (Feb 24, 2013)

maomao said:


> I'm half Scottish (Edinburgh, and I spend a lot of time there) and I'm sitting here doing it in my best Edinburgh accent (not the shit one I do to wind my mum up) and I can't get the difference. I also don't get the mechanism of the difference. it's either an 'ee' or a schwa, I don't get what the other vowel would be.


 
I'm from East Lothian, I just live in Edinburgh now. Maybe that makes a difference. I dunno! In 'rummage' the second vowel is closer to the one I have in 'fudge' but in 'village' it's closer to the one I have in 'itch'. I mean it's not as extreme as that because it's still in an unstressed position but it's definitely different


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## maomao (Feb 24, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I'm from East Lothian, I just live in Edinburgh now. Maybe that makes a difference. I dunno! In 'rummage' the second vowel is closer to the one I have in 'fudge' but in 'village' it's closer to the one I have in 'itch'. I mean it's not as extreme as that because it's still in an unstressed position but it's definitely different


There is a weird extra vowel in Edinburgh English that I can't work out so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. But next time in Scotland I will be looking for excuses to get family members to say 'rummage' lol.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Not in most accents. Maybe in yours.


I beg to differ!


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## Orang Utan (Feb 24, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I'm from East Lothian, I just live in Edinburgh now. Maybe that makes a difference. I dunno! In 'rummage' the second vowel is closer to the one I have in 'fudge' but in 'village' it's closer to the one I have in 'itch'. I mean it's not as extreme as that because it's still in an unstressed position but it's definitely different


So like rummuj?


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## clicker (Feb 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Because they sound really different when I say them.
> Sorry I don't know how to explain it any more than that.


agree...totally different...

vill-eadge
pill-eadge
rummidge

as in grinnidge.....which is what anyone born near the place should call it 

but its a gentle difference...dont labour on the eadge bit of vill and pill....just kind of spit it out softly but swiftly.


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## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Village
> Pillage
> Rummage
> they all rhyme!


 
Ok I've thought about it. 

Villidge
Pillidge
Rummaidge


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## clicker (Feb 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Ok I've thought about it.
> 
> Villidge
> Pillidge
> Rummaidge


 
noooooooooo ...but quite close...do i really say vill-eadge???

i think you are right in so much as vill and pill go up when saying it....but rumm-adge definitle goes down?


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## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

clicker said:


> agree...totally different...
> 
> vill-eadge
> pill-eadge
> ...


 
See OU innit funny ow we all talk different


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## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

clicker said:


> noooooooooo ...but quite close...do i really say vill-eadge???
> 
> i think you are right in so much as vill and pill go up when saying it....but rumm-adge definitle goes down?


vill-idge
pill-idge
rumm-udge... except it isn't quite a 'u' - it's a bit like an 'err' sound. i think it's a schwah.


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## spanglechick (Feb 24, 2013)

actually - maybe i'm overthinking this. maybe it's rumm-ege.


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## MillwallShoes (Feb 24, 2013)

grenitch


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## kittyP (Feb 24, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> actually - maybe i'm overthinking this. maybe it's rumm-ege.


 
It's like the more you say a word over and over the more it seems to lose it's meaning. 
The more I am saying these words the more I can't work out how I naturally pronounce then


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 25, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> How do you say rummage?


In Brixton Villaaage a ruffian rummidged in her cleavaaage


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## maomao (Feb 25, 2013)

Just checked with two older SE Londoners (50s) and definitely 'idge' at the end. 'itch' at the end from a SE Londoner in his early 30s.


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## maomao (Feb 25, 2013)

clicker said:


> noooooooooo ...but quite close...do i really say vill-eadge???
> 
> i think you are right in so much as vill and pill go up when saying it....but rumm-adge definitle goes down?


You're definitely over thinking it. there are 19 vowel sounds in London or estuary English (20 in received pronuciation), it's one of those 19 sounds, there's no gentle differences. Our brains don't have the equipment to encode gentle differences for individual words, they have a set of sounds and they build words out of them.

Edinburgh (and I assume Lothian) Scottish  has a big old back vowel sound that is used for the short 'i' in lots of words and also seems to replace some other vowels as well. I haven't worked out a rule for it but I will one day so I'm letting weepiper off on this one.


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## lang rabbie (Feb 26, 2013)

On the rare occasions that my father - a Fifer who spoke with a distinct Scots brogue despite fifty years south of the border - had cause to pronounce Greenwich in the context of the Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital or the National Maritime Museum he always came out with something close to the received pronuniciation Gren'itch.


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## Debrajoan (Feb 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and theydon bois, how would you pronounce that?



To stop listeners from saying, "What!", I'd incorrectly call it Theydon Boys,
but it is so obviously French, and should be pronounced Theydon Bwah.
Every Londoner that I know calls Greenwich, Grinnidge, unless they're in NYC then it's Grennich Village.
Marylebone is pronounced, or mispronounced, many ways, I've always said Marruhbuhn.
You can take the girl out of Peckham, but you can't take Peckham out of the girl.


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## Debrajoan (Feb 28, 2014)

tendril said:


> The corkers for the yanks are Leicestershire and worcestershire



They're a tad mystified by Southwark too.


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## maomao (Feb 28, 2014)

Debrajoan said:


> They're a tad mystified by Southwark too.


Suvvek. If they say south - wark just shout suvvek at them without explaining.


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## stupid dogbot (Feb 28, 2014)

The first option, but it's not something that comes up very often.


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## dessiato (Feb 28, 2014)

How do I pronounce it? The correct way of course.


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## Hellsbells (Feb 28, 2014)

grenitch

holborn & marylebone took a while to work out when i first moved here. Now I call them ho-burn and marr lee bone. No idea if that's right or not. I used to pronounce Holborn the way it's written - so hol-burn - but it's uncomfortable to say. And Marylebone - i'd also pronounce as it's written - mary-lee-bone. 
So in theory Greenwich should really be green witch. 

I find this all really interesting!


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## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

Debrajoan said:


> To stop listeners from saying, "What!", I'd incorrectly call it Theydon Boys,
> but it is so obviously French, and should be pronounced Theydon Bwah.
> Every Londoner that I know calls Greenwich, Grinnidge, unless they're in NYC then it's Grennich Village.
> Marylebone is pronounced, or mispronounced, many ways, I've always said Marruhbuhn.
> You can take the girl out of Peckham, but you can't take Peckham out of the girl.


bo-iss. theydon bo-iss.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2014)

yeh 


maomao said:


> Suvvek. If they say south - wark just shout suvvek at them without explaining.


until they run away in tears


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> That is the question



Grennidge.


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