# Are bosses allowed to shout at you?



## Kidda (Dec 7, 2012)

Legally like. 

The guy who runs our organisation is a bit of a tyrant and i keep hearing of countless times when he asks staff to his office for a dressing down and then shouts at them whilst pointing his finger in their faces. 

These members of staff are often left quite shook up by it and some even in tears. 

The guy is just vile and a right knobber. 

In the new year the spotlight will be on our department and so i no doubt we will get to bask in his presence at times. After seeing my boss in tears today i really don't think i could sit in a room whilst a grown man shouted at me and to be honest i've never worked anywhere where people just saw this as ''just what happens''

To me it's bullying and completely out of order. 

Am i being naive? Does this happen alot in other workplaces? Is it legal?


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## weltweit (Dec 7, 2012)

I don't know about legal but I assume if the staff affected could find somewhere else to work, they would!


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## two sheds (Dec 7, 2012)

Record him and put it on youtube.


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## Kidda (Dec 7, 2012)

weltweit said:


> I don't know about legal but I assume if the staff affected could find somewhere else to work, they would!


 
Yeah he's made it quite a strange place to work at the moment, but there aint no jobs about at the moment.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2012)

I shout at my boss and so there's a level playing field I see no reason why he should be banned from shouting at me


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2012)

Cunts with money make their own rules.


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## Kidda (Dec 7, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> I shout at my boss and so there's a level playing field I see no reason why he should be banned from shouting at me


 
but under no situation would we ever be able to shout at him


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## dylanredefined (Dec 7, 2012)

Yes I think you are. It really depends on the job you are doing though. If you have genuinely messed up I don't think you can argue with a boss shouting at you.
                 As a Nurse shouting at staff would be unprofessional.
                 In the Infantry its part of the job and we practise it  (looks fucking daft)


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## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2012)

Kidda said:


> but under no situation would we ever be able to shout at him


You should be in a job where you can shout at the boss if you want. If all the shouting's one way only you should look to get a new job tho clearly that may take some time


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## Blagsta (Dec 7, 2012)

If he's causing unnecessary stress (which it sounds like he is), then I'd have thought he's in breach of the health & safety at work act. Is your workplace unionised?


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## Ax^ (Dec 7, 2012)

Well we have several bosses at my place,


But 2 are important the national operations manager and the regional operations manager..


Regional will scream and shout at you if you aggravate him and the other one will come at you sideways  using all the tools of the disciplinary  procedure at his disposal 

I prefer the shouty one


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## bi0boy (Dec 7, 2012)

Section 5 Public Order Act?


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## Mapped (Dec 7, 2012)

My mrs got a director in a public sector organisation sacked for bullying because he used this sort of behaviour: repeated aggressive and threatening body language and shouting


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## Thora (Dec 7, 2012)

If it causing you fear, distress or alarm then I would think it is illegal.


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## Kidda (Dec 7, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> If he's causing unnecessary stress (which it sounds like he is), then I'd have thought he's in breach of the health & safety at work act. Is your workplace unionised?


 
Yeah massively so, we have a union rep and a half. She is immense. So she's already on it but i just can't believe the guy can get away with reducing people to tears like this on the regular. 

One member of staff went for a promotion, had the interview, got called in to his office the next day, he ranted and raved about all her perceived bad points,told her everything she had ever done wrong, reduced her to tears and then told her she had the job. Who the fuck does that?


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## Blagsta (Dec 7, 2012)

Can you all put in a collective grievance?


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## Mapped (Dec 7, 2012)

Kidda said:


> Yeah massively so, we have a union rep and a half.


 
This is good. This helped a lot with my wife and she got the whole team behind her. The guy made her sign off with stress, nearly have a breakdown which put her on anti-depressants that she was hooked on for over 4 years  I was working in the same place too and wanted to punch him in the face on a daily basis.

It helped her case that when it came to HR interviews and evidence gathering he would hang around the windows of the offices that they were being carried out in looking menacing and trying to intimidate his staff even at that stage 

The fucker still pesters me on linkedin every now and then.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2012)

N1 Buoy said:


> The fucker still pesters me on linkedin every now and then.


Pity you can't endorse people for "being a bastard".


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## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2012)

it's when bosses start shooting at you that you really have to worry


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## Mapped (Dec 7, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Pity you can't endorse people for "being a bastard".


 
Mrs was wishing death upon him and a couple of months later he ended up in intensive care on life support. I don't ever want to get on the wrong side of her


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## Callie (Dec 7, 2012)

bi0boy said:


> Section 5 Public Order Act?


 

I would say if yourself and colleagues can make formal complaints saying it unprofessional/unnesscessary/distressing, possibly with the union in tow they would have to augment their behaviour.

I think there are issues about disciplining people in front of others too though with any of the above I don't know the official ins and outs.


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## Callie (Dec 7, 2012)

The difficulty would be in getting others who feel aggrieved to actually follow it up with a complaint imo. People love to complain about managers etc but very rarely follow it up in any official capacity, often because they dont feel it would be dealt with in a satisfactory manner which is a shame.


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## Ax^ (Dec 7, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's when bosses start shooting at you that you really have to worry



Dependant on the work environment...

Random occurrences I'd say should be taken in context but work place bullying is a separate issue


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## Geri (Dec 7, 2012)

I would say it was bullying behaviour. Having said that my ex-secretary infuriated me so much that I shouted at her quite a few times. I was not her boss though. I have never, ever shouted at anyone at work either before that or after!


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## StoneRoad (Dec 7, 2012)

I used to work for a couple of guys, one of whom was a really sweary shouty in-your-face type, the other was quiet and polite. Guess who got the team on-side, and the results.

On one memorable day, the quiet one "lost his temper" and yelled "sit down and shut the f**k up" at the other guy who was, very loudly, in mid-rant right in the middle of a large, open plan office.
You could have heard a pin drop!!! the affect lasted for several days.
He tried a rant at me one day, my reply was a very quiet, "oh really, that wasn't the situation, I had done all, and more, of the items on my job list. So, if you have quite finished, I do have work still to do for other people" I then walked off, back to my own desk and carried on.

I think such ranting / shouting is the mark of a bully, and usually a crap and insecure manager who is out of their depth. Defo get union / grievence procedures etc on the case.


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 7, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Pity you can't endorse people for "being a bastard".


 
You can endorse people for anything you like. Temper_Tantrum endorsed me, against my will and to my enormous annoyance, for "forward planning skills".


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2012)

It is certainly bullying - there's a huge power imbalance which means it's nothing like a normal argument where people might shout at each other, or a situation where somebody loses their patience at work and has a fight.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 7, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> You can endorse people for anything you like. Temper_Tantrum endorsed me, against my will and to my enormous annoyance, for "forward planning skills".


A high rating for "being a bastard" might be seen as positive in a lot of quarters though, which would give me pause.


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## cesare (Dec 7, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> If he's causing unnecessary stress (which it sounds like he is), then I'd have thought he's in breach of the health & safety at work act. Is your workplace unionised?


He could also end up being sued for personal injury, if he makes someone ill through stress.

This sort of behaviour could also result in someone resigning because of their treatment, leading to a constructive dismissal claim.

There's a union involved so they'll probably be looking at other aspects such as breach of bullying/harassment/dignity at work policy.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 7, 2012)

i'd suggest some research on workplace bullying - the term is quite widely used, and there are specific support organisations.

the duty of mutual trust and confidence may be one (legal) route to go down.

I think you should invoke the union sooner rather than later, and the more people that are prepared to stand up to this twunt, the better.


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## catinthehat (Dec 8, 2012)

There are plenty of model anti bullying policies - and they will certainly refer to intimidation, professional conduct and the like.  I would suggest in the absence of having this your union rep tables it and gets it agreed then the shouting becomes a clear breach of policy regardless of reason.  The person being shouted at does not even have to be the person who complains and anyone in the reach of the shouter can reasonably claim that their work environment is problematic because of the shouters behavior.  This sort of behavior when cited at an ET for example would cost the organisation money in the long run.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 8, 2012)

another thought - is there already any sort of policy at your workplace about professional standards / acceptable behaviour etc?

if so, this might* legally form part of your contract of employment and this could be a strand for argument.

* - subject to the disclaimer I'm not a lawyer or anything like that, just happened to remember someone winning a tribunal some years back based on harassment or being sacked due to being gay (at that time not protected in law, but the tribunal held that the company's equalities policy - which did cover sexual orientation - formed part of the employment contract.)


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## Epona (Dec 8, 2012)

Here's a  link to the TUC page about bullying at work

I find it utterly fucking astounding that some posters (some of whom I thought better of tbh) think that this sort of behaviour is OK.  Shouting at staff is clearly fucking not OK.

If it makes you feel shit and harassed, it is NOT right.


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## Bakunin (Dec 8, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> Can you all put in a collective grievance?


 
Or leave a small baggie of something naughty in his office where one of his superiors is bound to notice it.


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## JTG (Dec 8, 2012)

Epona said:


> Here's a  link to the TUC page about bullying at work
> 
> I find it utterly fucking astounding that some posters (some of whom I thought better of tbh) think that this sort of behaviour is OK. Shouting at staff is clearly fucking not OK.
> 
> If it makes you feel shit and harassed, it is NOT right.


Quoted for truth, emphasis and big bold characters underlined


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2012)

Kidda said:


> Legally like.
> 
> The guy who runs our organisation is a bit of a tyrant and i keep hearing of countless times when he asks staff to his office for a dressing down and then shouts at them whilst pointing his finger in their faces.
> 
> ...


 
Have a butchers at your workplace T & Cs and what they say on bullying. They should actually define what is or isn't considered to be "bullying" behaviour.
Remonstration is usually fine, but shouting isn't on. It's the mark of poor management and (often) a lack of articulacy.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2012)

Kidda said:


> but under no situation would we ever be able to shout at him


 
Why would you want to when you can be ruder by being icily polite to him?


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## stuff_it (Dec 8, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Or leave a small baggie of something naughty in his office where one of his superiors is bound to notice it.


Leave a small baggie of decent ket in his office and hope he snorts it thinking it's coke.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2012)

Kidda said:


> Yeah massively so, we have a union rep and a half. She is immense. So she's already on it but i just can't believe the guy can get away with reducing people to tears like this on the regular.


 
He can if they let him. Problem is that poor managers like that often rely on the asymmetry of the management/worker relationship to prevent people taking issue, and to some extent they *can* depend on it - people don't like friction.



> One member of staff went for a promotion, had the interview, got called in to his office the next day, he ranted and raved about all her perceived bad points,told her everything she had ever done wrong, reduced her to tears and then told her she had the job. Who the fuck does that?


 
Someone who believes in indoctrination, unfortunately. It's a good way to make soldiers, but an exceptionally-poor way to motivate trained professionals in a social care role.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's when bosses start shooting at you that you really have to worry


 
Pfft, most members of the management class and the officer class can't shoot straight.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2012)

StoneRoad said:


> I think such ranting / shouting is the mark of a bully, and usually a crap and insecure manager who is out of their depth.


 
Absolutely.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2012)

catinthehat said:


> There are plenty of model anti bullying policies - and they will certainly refer to intimidation, professional conduct and the like. I would suggest in the absence of having this your union rep tables it and gets it agreed then the shouting becomes a clear breach of policy regardless of reason. The person being shouted at does not even have to be the person who complains and anyone in the reach of the shouter can reasonably claim that their work environment is problematic because of the shouters behavior. This sort of behavior when cited at an ET for example would cost the organisation money in the long run.


 
IIRC Kidda is local authority public sector. If that's the case, I'd be very surprised if workplace regs and employment T & Cs don't cover workplace bullying extensively.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 8, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Or leave a small baggie of something naughty in his office where one of his superiors is bound to notice it.


 
Or some bestiality porn. "Donkey-felching monthly" or suchlike.


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## weltweit (Dec 8, 2012)

Had a shouty boss once.

His classic trick was to drive away from the company on some errand or other and immediately phone back on his carphone and shout at people to do something or other.

The trouble was that the microphone on his car kit was placed out by the drivers window and he usually drove with the window part down. The noise of the air meant he was very hard to hear through the phone. This made us always reply, speak up Tom we can't hear you! which would make him shout even louder till he was blue in the face.

He was ok really, just a bit of a dick who was out of his depth!


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 8, 2012)

I go very quiet and monotone when I'm enraged. It takes people who work for me a while to work that out. A shouty boss is probably easier to read.


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## Diamond (Dec 8, 2012)

This is lifted from a really cursory search of the Practical Law Company (the first stop for a large number of lawyers these days and always the primary resource in any pro bono matter I have):



> Employers may be liable for bullying or harassment, either directly or vicariously, if the acts are performed by employees in the course of employment:
> 
> Under discrimination law (the _Equality Act 2010_).
> Through a breach of contract claim.
> ...


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## Diamond (Dec 8, 2012)

However, the important point to recognise is that tribunals and courts are on the whole very reluctant to intervene in this kind of stuff unless the bullying (shouting) involves something very, very serious like sexism, racism, homophobia or any other kind of profound discrimination.

If you have one of those elements you have a very strong claim.  Correspondingly, if you do not, you have a very weak claim.  My understanding from discussions with employment lawyers at firms that I have worked at and at the pro bono centre that I attend is that it is very, very difficult to plead an effective bullying claim without one of those elements.

The tribunal and the courts generally are reluctant to get into, what they would see as, the minutiae of modern employment relationships.  I suspect that's largely down to a "floodgates" policy argument, although it also probably has something to do with taking a generally non-interventionist approach in day to day life.


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## equationgirl (Dec 8, 2012)

I shouted back at my old boss when she was having a massive go at me. She accused me of not trying my best to fix the problem, and I just lost it with her before walking out of her office.

Only time I've ever shouted at work, but it needed to be done because this woman was a bully. She was largely tolerable after that.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 8, 2012)

Diamond said:


> However, the important point to recognise is that tribunals and courts are on the whole very reluctant to intervene in this kind of stuff unless the bullying (shouting) involves something very, very serious like sexism, racism, homophobia or any other kind of profound discrimination.
> 
> If you have one of those elements you have a very strong claim. Correspondingly, if you do not, you have a very weak claim. My understanding from discussions with employment lawyers at firms that I have worked at and at the pro bono centre that I attend is that it is very, very difficult to plead an effective bullying claim without one of those elements.
> 
> The tribunal and the courts generally are reluctant to get into, what they would see as, the minutiae of modern employment relationships. I suspect that's largely down to a "floodgates" policy argument, although it also probably has something to do with taking a generally non-interventionist approach in day to day life.


 
Yes yes very good well done.

You have clearly not been paying attention to the thread it sounds like kidda will be able to take the steps mentioned by cesere and puddy_tat as her workplace is well unionised and will probably have reasonably strongs policies and proceedures and as any fule knows that is 90% of the battle when it comes to employment stuff.

I'll ignore the stuff about tribunals being reluctant to into bullying issues because I'm not sure you understand how the system works and I'm not sure I can be bothered to explain it to you.

ETA: kidda I agree with those who have said that people who have been on the reciving end of this cunts behaviour will probably have a good case under bullying and professional conduct


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## jakethesnake (Dec 8, 2012)

.


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## oryx (Dec 8, 2012)

Epona said:


> Here's a link to the TUC page about bullying at work
> 
> I find it utterly fucking astounding that some posters (some of whom I thought better of tbh) think that this sort of behaviour is OK. Shouting at staff is clearly fucking not OK.
> 
> If it makes you feel shit and harassed, it is NOT right.


 
Couldn't agree more.

Somehow, bosses like the one kidda mentions always seem to get their comeuppance in one way or another (IMHE, anyway).


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## winterinmoscow (Dec 13, 2012)

Sounds like disgusting bullying behaviour to me. No it's not acceptable. I worked somewhere similar once and I shouted back. We got on better after that and I don't regret it, but it's not on at all to have to go through that at work.


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## Captain Hurrah (Dec 16, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I shouted back at my old boss when she was having a massive go at me. She accused me of not trying my best to fix the problem, and I just lost it with her before walking out of her office.
> 
> Only time I've ever shouted at work, but it needed to be done because this woman was a bully. She was largely tolerable after that.


 
I've been in that kind of situation. But I thought fuck it, having seen my manager treat others in the same appalling way, and decided I'm going to give as good as I get, being physically aggressive, using _very_ nasty personal insults and foul language. I don't like bullies and it's funny how these cowardly creatures become more 'nice' to you after standing up to them.

I got suspended for it, though, and went to a disciplinary hearing, but his manager hated my manager's guts, smirked when reading witness statements about my behaviour and let me off with a 'final warning.' I appreciate, however, that other people aren't so lucky, to be saved by management politics.


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## equationgirl (Dec 16, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> I've been in that kind of situation. But I thought fuck it, having seen my manager treat others in the same appalling way, and decided I'm going to give as good as I get, being physically aggressive, using _very_ nasty personal insults and foul language. I don't like bullies and it's funny how these cowardly creatures become more 'nice' to you after standing up to them.
> 
> I got suspended for it, though, and went to a disciplinary hearing, but his manager hated my manager's guts, smirked when reading witness statements about my behaviour and let me off with a 'final warning.' I appreciate, however, that other people aren't so lucky, to be saved by management politics.


In my case she was having a go at me because of a problem with a supplier, a problem that I'd done everything I could to sort out, and she started laying into me yet again saying that I hadn't done my best to fix the problem, and I just lost it and yelled 'I have done everything I can do to fix this problem. I HAVE done my best - if the supplier won't return my calls or emails there is NOTHING I can do about it.' Then I walked out of her office.

I have no doubt that if I'd ever sworn directly at her, she would have insisted on disciplinary hearings. She did lengthen my probation because I was seriously ill, and put me through stressful meetings with HR for a year whilst I recovered. She tried to get my contract terminated because she was convinced I had lied on my medical form about my pre-existing health problems. HR luckily kicked that idea into touch but she was awful. I'm glad I don't work for her anymore.


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