# The new Windows 8 pro ultrabook-tablet hybrids



## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

With various corporations touting their upcoming wares recently, its starting to become clearer as to how this segment will look by the end of the year.

Note that this thread is not about Windows 8 RT ARM-powered devices which are more like an equivalent to iPads and android tablets.

There are good reasons to be skeptical about these devices, since it seems impossible to achieve the perfect balance of performance, weight, heat, bulk & price in this segment and end up with something thats as good as a tablet as it is as an ultra book. Apart from SSD and gradual improvements over the last decade, along with the promise of an OS that works well with touch, no magical improvements that would substantially alter this balancing act have actually come along since the first crop of tablet windows pcs of approximately a decade ago.

So I am fascinated to see how the various companies attempt to make attractive devices in this form. We've seen how Microsofts own efforts will deal with the keyboard aspect, but how are the rest going to deal with it? Thats where the wackiness and unusual compromises start to kick in!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19421341

http://www.cnet.com/laptops/toshiba-satellite-u925t/4505-3121_7-35427786.html

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technol...ndows-8-hybrid-tablet-next-gen-184712652.html

Toshiba go for a keyboard that can slide behind the screen.







Dell go wibble.






Sony might have a clue, but all of these devices suffer from inevitable sense of over-engineering and mechanisms that might break.






Given the premium price of ultrabooks already, these tablets will certainly be better off marketing themselves as ultrabooks that have a tablet mode, rather than straight tablets where their price will seem crazy. I still expect problems with battery and to an extent weight and heat to stop these devices living up to the theoretical appeal of having one device that does both.

Cant say much more until we get an idea of price and battery, but personally if I had to bet I'd say that ARM-based hybrids are a better bet for the longterm at providing such functionality & form, but only if the software for these devices evolves well beyond what is available so far, especially on android. Its not hard to imagine Windows 8 RT beating android comprehensively when it comes to the 10inch+ tablets with keyboard and uses that go beyond what even the ipad offers thus far, let alone android. But only if enough people buy them and developers do their bit. In the meantime lets see how much peoples hopes are dashed by x86 Windows 8 Pro tablet-ultrabook hybrids.


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## Crispy (Aug 30, 2012)

The Asus Transformer model seems to be the best idea IMO. The keyboard module would be optional and gives you more battery. Dock the screen in it "backwards" and fold it flat, and it's a thicker, heavier, longer-lasting tablet. Dock it "forwards" and it's a laptop. Only problem might be that the weight of having all the actual computer in the "lid" will tip it over.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Whatever make of laptop/tablet I'm getting next, it's definitely going to be along the lines of a tablet/keyboard combo like the Transformer.


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

It's the clunky mechanisms I don't like. Just look like they'd break way too easily. Notebooks & tablets are simple designs that are tried and tested.

The Microsoft Surface design or Asus Transformer seem to be the closest to what might actually work and not break.


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The Asus Transformer model seems to be the best idea IMO. The keyboard module would be optional and gives you more battery. Dock the screen in it "backwards" and fold it flat, and it's a thicker, heavier, longer-lasting tablet. Dock it "forwards" and it's a laptop. Only problem might be that the weight of having all the actual computer in the "lid" will tip it over.


 
Yes, and I expect that weight-balance issue is one of the reasons we are tending to see this idea applied mostly to ARM processor based devices, be they android or Windows RT. That and the impression given, with these x86 tablets costing a lot so needing to look like they are ultrabooks really, both in terms of appearance and spec.

By putting a really beefy additional battery in the keyboard part then the weight balance should be manageable, but the total weight of the device will be too great.

I'll be interested to see how good the Microsoft Surface keyboard turns out to be, although again I expect it will seem like a much better idea for the cheaper Surface RT than the Pro RT, where the price is likely to seem all wrong given the likely compromised nature of the keyboard when it comes to pro use, and indeed the much more expensive Pro looking too similar to the RT.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> It's the clunky mechanisms I don't like. Just look like they'd break way too easily. Notebooks & tablets are simple designs that are tried and tested.
> 
> The Microsoft Surface design or Asus Transformer seem to be the closest to what might actually work and not break.


I'm not into some of the clever but fiddly 'transforming' mechanisms I've seen, but the Asus system works great in practice.


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

Touchscreens on laptops seem to be happening now. That seems to be the way to go for Windows 8.


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

Sadly the Asus Windows 8 pro ultrabook-tablet hybrid thats been announced, and sports the form you like, sounds woeful in other respects. The Atom CPU doesnt sound like the machine is really ultrabook class, and the screen resolution is nothing to shout about either.

http://connecteddigitalworld.com/20...o-tab-and-asus-vivo-tab-rt-windows-8-devices/






As per my earlier comments, its much more likely that their RT version of this is a better balance that can actually live up to expectations. It at least represents a set of compromises that people are already used to (just not in association with Windows, yet) rather than pretending to be an ultrabook but actually being well underspec'd.


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

Are the new Atom processors any good? People (well, me anyway) associate them with netbooks. Not a good association.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> Touchscreens on laptops seem to be happening now. That seems to be the way to go for Windows 8.


Once you have a go with a touchscreen-enabled laptop/ultrabook, going back to just a trackpad/mouse seems like a huge step backwards. I think Microsoft are right on the money going with the Surface.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

elbows said:


> Sadly the Asus Windows 8 pro ultrabook-tablet hybrid thats been announced, and sports the form you like, sounds woeful in other respects. The Atom CPU doesnt sound like the machine is really ultrabook class, and the screen resolution is nothing to shout about either.


This sounds pretty good to me:


> The ASUS Vivo Tab RT has a slim and light profile that’s 8.3mm thin and 520g light. It features the NVIDIA Tegra 3 quad-core processor and 12-core GPU for outstanding mobile graphics performance, along with 2GB RAM and 32GB eMMC user storage


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> This sounds pretty good to me:


 
Thats the RT one. I was talking about the atom-one that runs full windows and is more directly comparable to the other hybrids I started the thread with.


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## mattie (Aug 30, 2012)

Any ideas on likely prices for these beasties?  Is speculation closer to tablet or ultrabook?


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## Firky (Aug 30, 2012)

I'll be sticking to my tablet and a separate netbook for sometime yet. I find these new devices far too over engineered, I am a big fan of KISS design and a laptop is as functional as a hammer. No need for unnecessary gimmicks or complications IMO (such as detachable screens). Touch screen - yes, detachable - no.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

elbows said:


> Thats the RT one. I was talking about the atom-one that runs full windows and is more directly comparable to the other hybrids I started the thread with.


Which one? The Toshiba Satellite U925t has a Core i5 processor, 128GB SSD, DDR3 RAM, two USB 3.0 ports, HDMI, and Bluetooth...
http://www.cnet.com/laptops/toshiba-satellite-u925t/4505-3121_7-35427786.html


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

firky said:


> I'll be sticking to my tablet and a separate netbook for sometime yet. I find these new devices far too over engineered, I am a big fan of KISS design and a laptop is as functional as a hammer. No need for unnecessary gimmicks or complications IMO (such as detachable screens).


Have you tried the Asus Transformer? It really doesn't feel like a bodge or gimmicky.


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Once you have a go with a touchscreen-enabled laptop/ultrabook, going back to just a trackpad/mouse seems like a huge step backwards. I think Microsoft are right on the money going with the Surface.


I'd like to see some long-term stats on that. Reaching out for a screen at many common angles is slower and more tiring than mouse/trackpad.


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## Crispy (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> Touchscreens on laptops seem to be happening now. That seems to be the way to go for Windows 8.


 
Is that really going to be much fun, from an ergonomics point of view?

EDIT: Jinx


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## Firky (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Have you tried the Asus Transformer? It really doesn't feel like a bodge or gimmicky.


 
Admittedly I haven't. Mostly because of some of the fears mentioned on this thread: it looks like it could break easily. Touchscreen - yes, detachable screens, no!


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> I'd like to see some long-term stats on that. Reaching out for a screen at many common angles is slower and more tiring than mouse/trackpad.


You surely don't need long term stats to realise that having the* choice* of using a touchscreen _in addition to_ a keyboard/trackpad/mouse has got to be better, no?


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> EDIT: Jinx




There's been studies on this. 30 degrees is optimal for a touchscreen IIRC. How many people have laptop screens at that angle? Maybe having a touchscreen with change behaviour and everyone will use their laptops at that angle.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

firky said:


> Admittedly I haven't. Mostly because of some of the fears mentioned on this thread: it looks like it could break easily. Touchscreen - yes, detachable screens, no!


That's what I thought. I was wrong. It's just about as rugged as any other laptop I've owned.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> There's been studies on this. 30 degrees is optimal for a touchscreen IIRC. How many people have laptop screens at that angle? Maybe having a touchscreen with change behaviour and everyone will use their laptops at that angle.


I'm not talking about only using a touchscreen interface though.

Some actions are much quicker via a touchscreen than any other input method.


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> You surely don't need long term stats to realise that having the* choice* of using a touchscreen _in addition to_ a keyboard/trackpad/mouse has got to be better, no?


If it's not used after the first couple of months then you've paid for an expensive gimmick. It _might_ be better if users change their behaviour to compensate and continue to do so. Whether they do is something to find out over the long term.


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

Ahh I see that HP's one that uses same form as the Asus Transformer and now Asus Vivo, is also using an atom CPU:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/30/hp-envy-x2-laptop-tablet-hybrid/

I need to read-up on the spec of this chip. But its now clear that actually we have 3 product categories, not 2:

1. ARM-based devices running either iOS, Android or Windows 8 RT. Good battery. Presently defines the term tablet.

2. Atom-based devices running full Windows 8, but not really ultrabook-spec equivalant. Probably good battery.

3. i3,i5,i7-based devices running full Windows 8, powerful ultra-book equivalent. Probably price, battery, weight & heat issues when trying to use as a tablet.


Too early to judge due to lack of price & battery info but its clear by now that I expect the 3rd type to be unsuitable if you want to use the tablet mode extensively.The 2nd type is new to me, it might be OK but only if the price is right, and only if most normal windows apps actually run ok on that spec. The first type is tried and tested and the only letdown at this point is range & depth of software.

Given that I expect to spend quite a lot of time dealing with Windows RT confusion for at least the rest of 2012, I'm not sure what to think of the atom-based category, another layer of confusion! I expect this class of device only exists because Intel are desperate to compete with ARM processors in the lower-performance lower-power mobile segment. And software for low-powered mobile devices is generally best when designed for these platforms specifically, with an OS to match, so Im not sure Im very keen on atom with x86 compatibility trying to blur these lines.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> If it's not used after the first couple of months then you've paid for an expensive gimmick. It _might_ be better if users change their behaviour to compensate and continue to do so. Whether they do is something to find out over the long term.


All I can say is that when I was using the Transformer for a few days I soon found it MUCH easier to use the touchscreen for some actions - so much so that I've now no interest in buying a laptop without a touchscreen.


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## Firky (Aug 30, 2012)

If I was to be buying something now I'd probably look at the Asus on the strength of their Nexus 7. But seeing as I bought this netbook in January and the Nexus 7 in July, I won't be upgrading for at least 18 months but when I do... I don't know! HD touchscreens will be common I'd have thought?

By British, by ARM


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> I'm not talking about only using a touchscreen interface though.
> 
> Some actions are much quicker via a touchscreen than any other input method.


Sure. Just a matter of getting the balance, otherwise the user will tire.

Here's the research I was talking about: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1125103

You need to pay for the whole paper, but the summary outlines what they did. I have a PDF somewhere.


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## Crispy (Aug 30, 2012)

Some of the key windows 8 touch gestures aren't going to be very comfortable on a laptop screen. Swiping from the sides to get at the various menus is going to nudge the computer around on the table. They're ideal for a tablet, of course.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> Sure. Just a matter of getting the balance, otherwise the user will tire.
> 
> Here's the research I was talking about: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1125103


Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm on about using a touchscreen in association with the other methods of interaction. Have you used a Transformer? I would be very surprised if you didn't find yourself easily and comfortably using the screen for some actions too.


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Which one? The Toshiba Satellite U925t has a Core i5 processor, 128GB SSD, DDR3 RAM, two USB 3.0 ports, HDMI, and Bluetooth...
> http://www.cnet.com/laptops/toshiba-satellite-u925t/4505-3121_7-35427786.html


 
Well we were both wrong, as per the detail in my previous post where I clarify that there are actually three product categories. I was trying to make this thread about the ones that run full windows, not Windows RT and not equivalent to android or iOS devices. But when I started the thread I was assuming this meant proper ultrabook class CPU, I hadnt noticed that the Asus & HP ones ran full windows but were using atom chips. 

Either way I'll stick to my comments that atom spec ones dont compare well to the i5 & i7 ultrabook-tablet hybrids in terms of performance. But I was not criticising the Asus Vivo Tab RT that you mentioned at all, since thats the ARM-type tablet thats well-proven and that Im trying to keep out of this thread.


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## editor (Aug 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Some of the key windows 8 touch gestures aren't going to be very comfortable on a laptop screen. Swiping from the sides to get at the various menus is going to nudge the computer around on the table. They're ideal for a tablet, of course.


 Maybe if you go in for big theatrical swipes it may prove troublesome, but I happily swiped away on the Asus without any table-troubling bother.


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## Firky (Aug 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Some of the key windows 8 touch gestures aren't going to be very comfortable on a laptop screen. Swiping from the sides to get at the various menus is going to nudge the computer around on the table. They're ideal for a tablet, of course.


 
Only if you're club fingered moron with the dexterity of an ape.


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## magneze (Aug 30, 2012)

editor said:


> Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm on about using a touchscreen in association with the other methods of interaction. Have you used a Transformer? I would be very surprised if you didn't find yourself easily and comfortably using the screen for some actions too.


I understand what you mean, but I'm still interested in long term usage trends. How the applications make use of touch vs mouse will be absolutely key to this.


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Some of the key windows 8 touch gestures aren't going to be very comfortable on a laptop screen. Swiping from the sides to get at the various menus is going to nudge the computer around on the table. They're ideal for a tablet, of course.


 
It looks very much like many of these are going to be accessed via multitouch touchpad gestures on many laptop-type devices. In general I am quite a fan of these, although I havent had the opportunity to try Windows 8 with them yet.


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

mattie said:


> Any ideas on likely prices for these beasties? Is speculation closer to tablet or ultrabook?


 
Closer to ultrabook, although the atom-based ones might be a fair bit cheaper than that I still wouldnt expect them to be comparable to present tablet prices.

Actual confirmed pricing etc is probably not supposed to happen until at least the official Microsoft Windows 8 launch towards the end of October.


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## elbows (Aug 30, 2012)

magneze said:


> Are the new Atom processors any good? People (well, me anyway) associate them with netbooks. Not a good association.


 
Indeed, its certainly impossible to associate Atoms with the term ultrabook, and the atoms performance is likely to look very poor for everything apart from energy use when compared to the i3,i5,i7 intel chips.

The most sensible way to view Atom is as a competitor to all the ARM-powered devices we see. But I've tended to expect that these windows atom ones wont be competitively priced with ARM ones, in part due to the price of windows.

To be honest its sort of done my head in a bit because in the longterm its kind of hard to see there being room for both ARM-based Windows RT 8 and Atom-based Windows 8 tablets. And it may well add to the confusion over RT, with the atom-based devices actually being what some people incorrectly think the RT ones are (ie compatible with normal existing windows software, when really RT isn't). But if the price is wrong or the performance when actually running that flavour of windows & apps is sub-par, then whats the point? Luckily it wont be hard for most developers writing new metro apps to cater for all the 3 flavours (RT on ARM, full windows on Atom and faster x86 processors like the i5) but from a consumer point of view its still likely to be a bit of a mess, at least initially.


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## editor (Sep 1, 2012)

Interesting piece here. I think the writer is about touchscreens. 



> *Microsoft spies Apple vulnerability*
> 
> Microsoft and its partners have found an opening against Apple. That's rare these days.
> The Windows 8 touch screen is the first real change that has come to Windows laptops in a long time.
> ...


http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57504849-75/microsoft-spies-apple-vulnerability/


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 1, 2012)

mattie said:


> Any ideas on likely prices for these beasties?  Is speculation closer to tablet or ultrabook?



That's the key issue that rarely gets talked about. If they're more than a decent ultrabook then I'm not sure how well they'll do.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

An OS which expects you to raise your hands from the keyboard/touchpad/external mouse and swipe the screen with your finger every now and then is a broken OS.

Does anybody here actually _own and use_ a Transformer btw? I don't know anybody who does, despite all the talk about how it's the future of stuff, so it would be interesting to hear.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> An OS which expects you to raise your hands from the keyboard/touchpad/external mouse and swipe the screen with your finger every now and then is a broken OS.
> 
> Does anybody here actually _own and use_ a Transformer btw? I don't know anybody who does, despite all the talk about how it's the future of stuff, so it would be interesting to hear.



Yep. Your arms won't last long doing that all day.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Does anybody here actually _own and use_ a Transformer btw? I don't know anybody who does, despite all the talk about how it's the future of stuff, so it would be interesting to hear.


I don't own one but I've used one a fair bit now and it was a good enough experience to tell me that I never want to buy a non-touchscreen laptop again.

How about you?

Not sure why having an _additional option_ to interact with the OS marks a "broken OS", btw. On the Transformer I could use the screen, the keyboard or a touchpad - or a even mouse if I wanted to plug one in. How can that possibly be worse than not having that touchscreen option?


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## FaradayCaged (Sep 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Have you tried the Asus Transformer? It really doesn't feel like a bodge or gimmicky.


Ed is right here. They have one on display in my local car phone warehouse and you can pick it up, dock it and un-dock it and it feels really solid. Tbh, I thought it was going to be flimsy the first time I saw one on the net but they are really well built.


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## Macabre (Sep 2, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep. Your arms won't last long doing that all day.


Do you have ME? Moving your arms a few cm is hardly taxing and I'd be suprised if there aren't any keyboard shortcuts to simulate gestures.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 2, 2012)

Macabre said:


> Do you have ME? Moving your arms a few cm is hardly taxing and I'd be suprised if there aren't any keyboard shortcuts to simulate gestures.



You don't have to have ME to know that constantly touching the screen all day will cause strain. If it needs key board short cuts then whats the point of a touch screen?


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> You don't have to have ME to know that constantly touching the screen all day will cause strain.


Have you ever used a Transformer?


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

Macabre said:


> Do you have ME? Moving your arms a few cm is hardly taxing and I'd be suprised if there aren't any keyboard shortcuts to simulate gestures.


Indeed. Having an additional physical means to interact with a computer and being able to choose the action that is the most efficient and comfortable for each task is more likely to reduce strain than increase it.


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## magneze (Sep 2, 2012)

Research on this indicates otherwise unless your touchscreen is at around 30°.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

magneze said:


> Research on this indicates otherwise unless your touchscreen is at around 30°.


Did this "research" you keep banging on about involve people using touchscreens on machines also equipped with trackpads, keypads and a mouse - because if it didn't then it's *absolutely meaningless.*

I predict laptops with touchscreens will become very popular indeed. I'm certainly getting one. Have you used a Transformer, btw?


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## magneze (Sep 2, 2012)

Touchscreen operations are considered more tiring than mouse or keyboard except at certain angles. It's clearly relevant. So relevant that Apple have patented a way of dropping the angle of a desktop touchscreen to a shallower angle. 

I've not used a Transformer. Is that some kind of necessity here?

I see a Transformer and a touchscreen laptop as two very different beasts btw. 

The Transformer in laptop mode will be very tiring if you try and use it as a touchscreen a lot in normal laptop angles. However it's touchscreen is going to be super in tablet mode.

Touchscreen laptops on the the other hand I believe will be a short lived gimmick - there's no point without the ability to detach the screen and use it as a tablet. What could affect this is if users start putting laptop screens at shallower angles to reduce fatigue. Of course this could affect mouse and keyboard operation and may necessitate bending further over the desk. There's an interesting ergonomics study in here somewhere.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

magneze said:


> Touchscreen operations are considered more tiring than mouse or keyboard except at certain angles. It's clearly relevant. So relevant that Apple have patented a way of dropping the angle of a desktop touchscreen to a shallower angle.


How about 'occasional touchscreen operations when used with a regular laptop with a keyboard/trackpad and mouse'?

Got any research on that?

My own, hands on experience, tells me that it's not even slightly 'more tiring'. In fact, it has quite the reverse effect - that;s why my next laptop or laptop/hybrid will almost certainly have a touchscreen.

Most laptops let you drop the screen to a much lower angle anyway.


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## Firky (Sep 2, 2012)

editor said:


> I predict laptops with touchscreens will become very popular indeed.


 
I think touchscreens will be a standard feature of laptops in the near future.

Anything is an improvement on the nipple and touchpad.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Sep 2, 2012)

I got a Samsung Slate 7 Tablet for work purposes.

I can say its bloody useful having windows 7 on a tiny tablet than android or IOS. The abilty to plug into other systems used to havign PCs plugged in plus Photoshop Word etc.

Im looking forward to Windows 8 because it will be less fiddly.

The problem is screen response time.. I dont think 1st gen w8 tablets will be responsive enough for my specific needs..


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## magneze (Sep 2, 2012)

editor said:


> How about 'occasional touchscreen operations when used with a regular laptop with a keyboard/trackpad and mouse'?
> 
> Got any research on that?


Not with that title, but this one's pretty interesting too - citing the one I linked to before.

"High Precision Touchscreens: Design Strategies and Comparisons with a Mouse"
http://drum.lib.umd.edu/bitstream/1903/360/2/CS-TR-2268.pdf

I believe that this one does largely support your assertion that some operations are better with a touchscreen from many aspects .... which, by the way, I have never disputed. However, it is surely instructive that they too raise arm fatigue as an issue.



> My own, hands on experience, tells me that it's not even slightly 'more tiring'. In fact, it has quite the reverse effect - that;s why my next laptop or laptop/hybrid will almost certainly have a touchscreen.


Well, I'll just take your word as gospel eh? 



> Most laptops let you drop the screen to a much lower angle anyway.


Indeed, this is going to be very interesting. IMO one of two things will happen - either people with touchscreen laptops start using them at a lower angle, or touchscreen laptops don't really work. Convertible tablets are a whole other kettle of fish - maybe they become the norm.

Interesting times.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Sep 2, 2012)

Is it not simpley productivity? You can touchscreen away for ages..but if your doing proper work sometimes its just easier to type. I will upgrade to one with an attached keyboard eventually, as having a loose bluetooth one is a pain in the arse.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

firky said:


> I think touchscreens will be a standard feature of laptops in the near future.


Me too. Once you've used a touchscreen laptop it really is a no brainer. There's going to be loads of laptops coming out with touchscreens.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

The issue is the balance of interface within workflows. A touch system with occasional keyboard is okay, if not ideal. Not knowing any, but I would assume a keyboard system with occasional touch would also be okay. Where they fall down and are broken is when the OS requires a movement between different interfaces on a regular basis. This is already a problem that has to be addressed with just keyboard and mouse - touch is even more of a jump.

Apparently nobody actually owns or has used a Transformer seriously which is a shame - I am seriously interested as to how things come together with it. I only have experience with iOS and external keyboards and that is, on the whole, at best neutral. The keyboard is handy when entering large amounts of text but the switch between UI methods is jarring enough that, in most situations, it is not worth having the keyboard there at all.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Apparently nobody actually owns or has used a Transformer seriously which is a shame - I am seriously interested as to how things come together with it.


Um, hello? I had the loan of one for several days and used it extensively - and it was that experience that has made me decide that the next laptop/tablet thingy I get will almost definitely have a touchscreen.

Or was that not a "serious" enough use for your tastes?


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## magneze (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The issue is the balance of interface within workflows. A touch system with occasional keyboard is okay, if not ideal. Not knowing any, but I would assume a keyboard system with occasional touch would also be okay. Where they fall down and are broken is when the OS requires a movement between different interfaces on a regular basis. This is already a problem that has to be addressed with just keyboard and mouse - touch is even more of a jump.


I think that if the touch enabled part of an app has a keyboard or mouse equivalent then it'll need to be significantly better for it to still be used after the novelty factor has worn off.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Um, hello? I had the loan of one for several days and used it extensively - and it was that experience that has made me decide that the next laptop/tablet thingy I get will almost definitely have a touchscreen.
> 
> Or was that not a "serious" enough use for your tastes?


No, not really, tbh. I've used lots of stuff for a few days. In fact I was really keen on the iPad keyboard for the first few days I had it before I actually tried to use it as part of a regular workflow.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

magneze said:


> I think that if the touch enabled part of an app has a keyboard or mouse equivalent then it'll need to be significantly better for it to still be used after the novelty factor has worn off.


Not sure if the 'novelty factor' of being able to quickly click on a link on a webpage using a touchscreen rather than fiddle about with a trackpad is ever likely to wear off, to be honest. It's just a far more efficient process.

Same applies to scrolling a long web page. It's much quicker to swipe.


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, not really, tbh. I've used lots of stuff for a few days. In fact I was really keen on the iPad keyboard for the first few days I had it before I actually tried to use it as part of a regular workflow.


Well, I'm convinced enough to put my money where my mouth is. 

And I could have told you that the iPad keyboard was rubbish for real work from the start!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

magneze said:


> I think that if the touch enabled part of an app has a keyboard or mouse equivalent then it'll need to be significantly better for it to still be used after the novelty factor has worn off.


If it's just a question of there being a touch or swipe or whatever alternative for a keyboard or mouse control, then that would be one thing - likely fairly pointless in practice, but not actively damaging. For example, say, an app switching system that let you alt-tab or also do some sort of swipe on the screen. Everybody is going to alt-tab if they've been using any keyboard-centric app. However, if the OS makes one method important for some functions whilst really requiring another for other functions in the same flow, that's what I would call broken.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Well, I'm convinced enough to put my money where my mouth is.
> 
> And I could have told you that the iPad keyboard was rubbish for real work from the start!


Why, what's wrong with external iPad keyboards?


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Why, what's wrong with external iPad keyboards?


Nothing - if you're happy with the extra bits to drag around - but typing on a glass screen is as pretty awful experience, whatever the brand.

That's why I'm so interested in a properly integrated tablet/keyboard hybrid.


----------



## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If it's just a question of there being a touch or swipe or whatever alternative for a keyboard or mouse control, then that would be one thing - likely fairly pointless in practice, but not actively damaging. For example, say, an app switching system that let you alt-tab or also do some sort of swipe on the screen. Everybody is going to alt-tab if they've been using any keyboard-centric app. However, if the OS makes one method important for some functions whilst really requiring another for other functions in the same flow, that's what I would call broken.


Why do you keep assuming that an OS is going to make some functions touchscreen only?

It seems a really odd assertion to make.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

editor said:


> Why do you keep assuming that an OS is going to make some functions touchscreen only?
> 
> It seems a really odd assertion to make.


I'm not asserting that at all. I'm saying that if it is the case it is a UI problem. Some people have reported it with Windows 8 here and elsewhere, saying that some operations are designed to be triggered with touch gestures and are very awkward without them. Hopefully that's not true in practice.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

I can see I'm not going to convince the doubters here, but seeing as I'm one of the very few that's actually had any kind of use out of a touchscreen enabled laptop, I've rarely felt so confident that I'm right on this score!

Touchscreen hybrid laptops/tablets are going to happen and people are going to lap 'em up. And I want one!


----------



## magneze (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> If it's just a question of there being a touch or swipe or whatever alternative for a keyboard or mouse control, then that would be one thing - likely fairly pointless in practice, but not actively damaging. For example, say, an app switching system that let you alt-tab or also do some sort of swipe on the screen. Everybody is going to alt-tab if they've been using any keyboard-centric app. However, if the OS makes one method important for some functions whilst really requiring another for other functions in the same flow, that's what I would call broken.


Yep. Windows 8 springs to mind. Awful with a mouse for some stuff.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

magneze said:


> Yep. Windows 8 springs to mind. Awful with a mouse for some stuff.


Well that's what the thread is about!


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 2, 2012)

firky said:


> I think touchscreens will be a standard feature of laptops in the near future.
> 
> Anything is an improvement on the nipple and touchpad.



Touch is interim, voice activated is the future.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 2, 2012)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Touch is interim, voice activated is the future.


 
Cos I really want to be seen muttering at my laptop. It will make look like even more of a loon.

Anyway they've been trying it forever now and it's still loads slower then typing.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 2, 2012)

Voice is going nowhere.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Voice is going nowhere.


Indeed. Like fuck am I going to sit in a cafe barking commands at my laptop.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 2, 2012)

I really really am surprised they've found it so hard to do well though. I've not desire to control my PC by talking to to it, but for dictating things I can see the use and I can type at a fair speed.


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## editor (Sep 2, 2012)

Global Stoner said:


> I really really am surprised they've found it so hard to do well though.


You can get packages that are very accurate for voice typing (I've got one of the best on my machines). Thing is, I don't think that many people actually want to talk to their computers - it certainly wouldn't be ideal in a busy office or cafe, for example.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 2, 2012)

editor said:


> You can get packages that are very accurate for voice typing (I've got one of the best on my machines). Thing is, I don't think that many people actually want to talk to their computers - it certainly wouldn't be ideal in a busy office or cafe, for example.


 
I spent a while training one and whilst I was quite impressed, at the end of the day it was still pretty shit. Whilst plenty of people don't want to talk to there computers, I'd imagine that would still leave millions of consumers who don't type that fast who would jump at the change if it just worked.


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## magneze (Sep 3, 2012)

Voice works pretty well. People with RSI can work quite effectively for example. However, this does require them to be shut in their own room which doesn't really seem to give it mass-market appeal.


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## editor (Sep 3, 2012)

Voice can definitely work well, although inserting punctuation and making corrections can be a particularly fiddly business. I only ever use voice for firing off quick texts when I'm in a hurry and can't imagine using it for anything else.


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## editor (Sep 3, 2012)

Hands on mini-review of the rather lovely looking Acer Aspire S7 touchscreen laptop:




http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc...ps-and-netbooks/acer-aspire-s7-1094349/review


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## editor (Sep 12, 2012)

Mr Intel agrees with me about how touchscreens are going to be everywhere. I'm never going back to a non touchscreen laptop/ultrabook/whatever. No sir!

"Ultrabooks, 'every screen' eventually touch, says Intel"
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57510103-92/ultrabooks-every-screen-eventually-touch-says-intel/


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## GarfieldLeChat (Sep 12, 2012)

> Repeated motion injuries.
> 
> Commonly known as RSIs, for repetitive stress injuries, these ailments result from recurrent large or small movements that affect joints, muscles, tendons, and nerves. For example, people who frequently use their thumbs to type text messages on cellphones sometimes develop de Quervain syndrome, a painful affliction that involves the tendons that move the thumb. Although the causal link isn't as well established as in patients who suffer from pain from prolonged desktop keyboard use, there's little doubt that overzealous texting can cause debilitating pain.
> 
> ...


RSI injuries due to touch devices http://www.infoworld.com/t/laptops/the-hidden-danger-touchscreens-181774


----------



## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

mattie said:


> Any ideas on likely prices for these beasties? Is speculation closer to tablet or ultrabook?


These prices have leaked from Asus:


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Asus make some damn good gear. Bottom one looks very intriguing.


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## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh dear, those prices arent very competitive. If accurate and typical then Windows 8, including Windows RT is going to have to establish itself as a premium player quickly. the UI will have to be a giant success, and a ton of excellent software is going to need to come out sharpish. Otherwise why is someone going to pay $100 more than the cheapest iPad3 for a device that has an underwhelming resolution compared to the iPad3? And another $199 for the keyboard. OK I know why some people will, and I am still vaguely interested despite the price, but for it to sell in sufficient numbers the platform will really have to shine, they have quite the task ahead of them.

The price of the atom model makes me even less keen on this 3rd category of tablet than I was before. Although it isnt fair for me to properly judge until I see how well Windows 8 performs on the 3 different classes of CPU (Windows RT i the case of the ARM devices).

That Taichi does sound interesting, though possibly bonkers its nice to see someone trying something different. Not that I can really work out what it is based on that graphic alone, and I havent tried to research further yet.


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

How come I missed the original Taichi announcement?

Warning: cringeworthy presentational disaster. Its ok for a minute, but then the curse of the demonstration strikes, something Microsoft have been adding value to for many a year  Later we are treated to a range of promises and phrases that make even Apple seem somewhat bashful by comparison.


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## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

If Windows RT tablets are going to be that sort of price I can certainly see why Microsoft gives away the RT version of office with them, an attempt to justify the premium. Better hope Office RT 2013 is brilliantly designed & implemented.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

elbows said:


> How come I missed the original Taichi announcement?


I rather like his curious and leisurely style of presentation and his 'unveil' for the two sided display.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Same applies to scrolling a long web page. It's much quicker to swipe.


Multitouch trackpads win here.


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## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh no, it doesnt look like they've actually put a proper touch interface on Office.

This video isnt entirely fair since he spends most of it in desktop mode, but we do get to see some of office and I'm afraid it made me facepalm.



Granted, the weaknesses of desktop mode are actually one of the strengths for users looking at a hybrid device rather than a pure tablet. But by so clearly illustrating the great different between the metro mode and the desktop mode, it just highlights for me the question of whether its better to have this sort of 2-in-1 functionality in a single device, or whether a user might remain better off having a separate tablet that does its thing well, and a 'proper computer' for other stuff. The price & battery may very well be the decider.


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I rather like his curious and leisurely style of presentation and his 'unveil' for the two sided display.


 
Yeah I didnt mind that, but then disaster struck, and the bullshit at the end was like a parody.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

That looks horrible 
But I thought RT didn't have the desktop UI


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

elbows said:


>



Epic fail.

If you ever - even for the tiniest, most obscure setting - have to go back to the classic Windows UI on one of these things then Microsoft have dropped the ball. Again.

Awful.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> That looks horrible
> But I thought RT didn't have the desktop UI


I'm thinking that maybe the thing runs both OSs? 
It does seem a bit of a daft hybrid though, although I can see what they're trying to do.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

Oh, and no auto switch when you go to portrait? Really?


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## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

A quick google reveals that RT (as well as regular 8) has Desktop mode, as shown in that video. And it looks _terrible_ to use with fingers. Just when I thought MS knew what they were doing


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

As far as I can see, if I was running Win8 on a desktop I'd never want to use the metro interface. And if it was on a tablet I'd never want to use the classic one.

So what's the point? They're trying to shoehorn two completely different sets of requirements into one place.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> A quick google reveals that RT (as well as regular 8) has Desktop mode, as shown in that video. And it looks _terrible_ to use with fingers. Just when I thought MS knew what they were doing


It's everything that was wrong with the old versions of Windows mobile on phones.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> As far as I can see, if I was running Win8 on a desktop I'd never want to use the metro interface. And if it was on a tablet I'd never want to use the classic one.
> 
> So what's the point? They're trying to shoehorn two completely different sets of requirements into one place.


Oh, I could see the point. If I was doing general browsing over a cup of coffee, then the metro (or whatever it's now called) interface would be preferably, but if I had some serious photo editing work to do, I'd want to switch to the full W8 OS and get busy with a stylus and/or mouse.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

You can picture the conversation at their R&D department:

"Hey, you know Win 7, that fantastic OS of ours that people actually seem to like? And you know our new phone OS that people seem to think is pretty good as well?"

"Yeah"

"Let's put them together, that way they'll be like one huge super OS!"

"Errrrrr, OK"


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> That looks horrible
> But I thought RT didn't have the desktop UI


 
I believe some understandable errors crept into previous mainstream wisdom about Windows RT.

It has a desktop. What Microsoft are not allowing is 3rd party software to run in the traditional windowed desktop mode. Instead app developers have to make their apps work with what was formerly known as the Metro interface, and has since been rebranded 'Windows Store Apps'.

That awful demo sucks my enthusiasm a lot, though it is an issue that can be overcome with quality software. But as Microsoft themselves dont seem to have bothered getting it right for their flagship app, I tend to think they have tied one hand behind their back. And may be about to saw off one or both legs if the price and battery issues are not trivial.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> I'd want to switch to the full W8 OS and get busy with a stylus and/or mouse.


Neither of which are standard hardware for RT devices, yet the bundled Office software, which should be the killer app, is the barely-touch-optimised desktop version, which as the video shows, is miserable to use without.

Um, sorry for the comma overload.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Neither of which are standard hardware for RT devices


So, in order to use their product you have to spend a load of money on various accessories and/or adapters?

Sounds a bit like....


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, in order to use their product you have to spend a load of money on various accessories and/or adapters?
> 
> Sounds a bit like....


Err, several of the new models are coming with styluses. The models I've seen come with a full array of ports too so you won't have all the excitement of buying a slew of over priced adaptors either.


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Err, several of the new models are coming with styluses. The models I've seen come with a full array of ports too so you won't have all the excitement of buying a slew of over priced adaptors either.


 
I blame myself for this confusion. When I stated this thread I wanted it to be about non-RT Windows 8, but I failed. And then I broke my own rules by going on about RT a lot in response to that pricing graphic.

If memory serves me correctly the devices that come with a stylus are more likely to be full-blown windows ones than Windows RT. But I will go and remind myself whether this is actually the case. Either way we run repeatedly into a variety of confusions caused by the different classes of products that have Windows 8 involved somewhere, and I should probably just wait until after launch before expecting everyone to be well versed in the differences.

Whenever we have talked about WIndows 8 in the past, I get the idea that some of the features that potentially attracts you to these devices are not as likely to exist on RT devices. Although I have been cynical about the pro versions chances of success due to thinks like price, heat & battery, there is a part of me thats still waiting for a decent version of the pre-iPad concept of what a tablet pc was. For example I would love to be using zbrush with a stylus that touches a screen, rather than a classic graphics tablet.


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## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

elbows said:


> For example I would love to be using zbrush with a stylus that touches a screen, rather than a classic graphics tablet.


Wacom Cintiq?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w9moLWXC2hc#t=302s


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## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Wacom Cintiq?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w9moLWXC2hc#t=302s


£2,000 lol.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Wacom Cintiq?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w9moLWXC2hc#t=302s


 
That's ace.


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Part one of a search for Windows 8 tablets with stylus:

Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet 2. Full Windows 8, digitizer pen optional.
http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/tablet/thinkpad/thinkpad-tablet-2/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/lenovo-thinkpad-tablet-2-impressions/

Asus Vivo Tab, the atom model mentioned in the price leak, full Windows 8 & digitizer pen (the RT model doesnt have stylus or support for one):

http://blog.laptopmag.com/asus-shows-off-windows-8-powered-vivo-tab-and-vivo-tab-rt-tablets


----------



## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> £2,000 lol.


For that quality of digitiser, yes.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> £2,000 lol.


That's one of those products where, if you're a pro and need it, the price is irrelevant. You buy it and it pays for itself through your work. A bit like a pro SLR system that costs ten grand or more.


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Wacom Cintiq?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w9moLWXC2hc#t=302s


 
Never been on anything but my fantasy radar due to the price. Although I was once insane enough to buy a Jazzmutant Lemur (for another purpose), just a few years before the iPad emerged


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

elbows said:


> Never been on anything but my fantasy radar due to the price. Although I was once insane enough to buy a Jazzmutant Lemur (for another purpose), just a few years before the iPad emerged


They were amazing at the time, but yeah, the iPad makes them look a bit silly now


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Continuing the pattern, Samsungs Atom and i5 full windows 8 devices have their 'S-Pen':

http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/29/sa...-5-and-7-slate-pcs-with-detachable-keyboards/


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Wacom Cintiq?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=w9moLWXC2hc#t=302s


 
Not sure what other models of windows 8 with stylus I may have missed out, but right now if I wanted to come up with a cheaper alternative to the Wacom Cintiq, I'd be looking at one of the atom Windows 8 models. Zbrush is very cpu hungry, and Im not convinced even the i5/i7 tablets would have enough grunt. If I were placing it on a desk (overcoming heat & battery issues) and was prepared to spend the extra money then perhaps these would work out ok. But the atom model combined with a traditional pc that can handle zbrush, and some software that maybe currently doesnt exist that can do remote control with pressure sensitivity, would be a more direct equivalent of the Wacom Cintiq and somewhat less likely to be encumbered by battery & heat issues.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

I like using a stylus. Sometimes it's a much better option than a trackpad, finger or keyboard.

*exhales longing sigh over the doomed Microsoft Courier


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

elbows said:


> But the atom model combined with a traditional pc that can handle zbrush, and some software that maybe currently doesnt exist that can do remote control with pressure sensitivity, would be a more direct equivalent of the Wacom Cintiq and somewhat less likely to be encumbered by battery & heat issues.


 
I should say that there is another option that would meed this rather specialised use case. If the missing link is software that actually sends the computer screen to the tablet screen, and the stylus data back to the pc, then there is no particular reason why this would require a windows tablet. There is no reason why the same thing could not be achieved using an android tablet with stylus such as the Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1, if someone wrote the app for the tablet and the hook to the tablet API on the windows machine.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

Windows desktop, Windows Tablet and Windows Phone.

That's what the lineup should be.

Instead we get this mess.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Windows desktop, Windows Tablet and Windows Phone.
> 
> That's what the lineup should be.


Nah. The desktop, tablet and phone all being able to share the same apps is critical to the success of the OS. It's where Apple are heading too.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Nah. The desktop, tablet and phone all being able to share the same apps is critical to the success of the OS. It's where Apple are heading too.


In Apple's case, they are *not* the same apps. eg: "Pages" for iPhone, iPad and OSX are 3 different applications, with different capabilities and interfaces appropriate for each device. Likewise mail, calendar, itunes etc. etc.

Sharing _data_ is crucial, but that doesn't mean trying to shoehorn applications from one UI paradigm into another.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Nah. The desktop, tablet and phone all being able to share the same apps is critical to the success of the OS. It's where Apple are heading too.


No they're not. They've realised that integration between the products - the moving of the data between them - is the key. But they have still got a distinct, hardware optimised UI for each platform.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

Or, in other words, what Crispy said while I was typing


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> No they're not. They've realised that integration between the products - the moving of the data between them - is the key. But they have still got a distinct, hardware optimised UI for each platform.


But the *same apps* sharing the same interface elements. Not completely different ones like Photoshop CS and Touch.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> In Apple's case, they are *not* the same apps. eg: "Pages" for iPhone, iPad and OSX are 3 different applications, with different capabilities and interfaces appropriate for each device. Likewise mail, calendar, itunes etc. etc.


Not at the moment they're not. Let's see how they look in a year or two's time where I expect there will be far more unified interfaces, albeit optimised for each device.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> But the *same apps* sharing the same interface elements. Not completely different ones like Photoshop CS and Touch.


But the same apps don't work. You can't use the desktop version of Office with a finger, as the video earlier in this thread demonstrated rather well.

You need Office Desktop, and Office Touch. Two different apps that can access the same data, that seamlessly synch together, but optimised for the appropriate interface. And the same applies to the OS, which it looks like MS haven't quite grasped. They want a "one size fits all" approach.


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Nah. The desktop, tablet and phone all being able to share the same apps is critical to the success of the OS. It's where Apple are heading too.


 
Windows Phone 8 isnt Windows 8. The Windows Phone Store is not the Windows Store.

Perhaps they will integrate them more fully in time, or I am missing some news, but right now they are not the same platform at all. Yes there is an overlap when it comes to the languages, dev environment, frameworks and user interfaces, and this makes it more trivial for developers to port apps to the different platforms. But as I understand it right now, you wont be buying an app on your Windows 8 or Windows 8 RT device and have it show up on your Windows 8 Phone, you'll be buying Windows 8 Phone apps separately.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> But the same apps don't work. You can't use the desktop version of Office with a finger, as the video earlier in this thread demonstrated rather well.
> 
> You need Office Desktop, and Office Touch. Two different apps that can access the same data, that seamlessly synch together, but optimised for the appropriate interface. And the same applies to the OS, which it looks like MS haven't quite grasped. They want a "one size fits all" approach.


And that's why I said they'd be sharing the same interface* elements* but be optimised for each device.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

elbows said:


> Perhaps they will integrate them more fully in time...


That's what I'm talking about. Clearly the situation now is some distance form that, but I think the days of having separate operating systems and separate apps for each type of device are numbered.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 18, 2012)

They don't share the same interface elements now in any sense - they're built around completely different paradigms (sorry but it's the word that fits). Pages Desktop uses toolbars, drawers and Apple's multi-tab floating option window thing which probably has a name. Pages Touch doesn't have any of that stuff and options are selected completely differently.

It _couldn't_ work like Desktop because Desktop's design rests on having (a) a mouse for fine box ticking and controls and (b) more importantly a screen larger than the main window, as the screen size of the app varies depending on how many bits you have open. I don't see any indication that they're becoming similar either and I don't see why they would.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

Exactly. The differences in capability of the two methods of interaction force fundamental differences in UI design.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Exactly. The differences in capability of the two methods of interaction force fundamental differences in UI design.


Yet a lot of web sites and some desktop apps have already started being informed by tablet/mobile interfaces, and have inherited elements like massive text and huge buttons.

I think this trend will continue, where possible/applicable, particularly as more desktops and laptops adopt touchscreens (which they will).


----------



## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> That's what I'm talking about. Clearly the situation now is some distance form that, but I think the days of having separate operating systems and separate apps for each type of device are numbered.


If they are numbered, its a rather large number.

It makes sense in some ways, but so long as there is a great difference in form, processing power and RAM between tablets and powerful laptops or desktops, we may see continued fragmentation. I suspect this issue is somewhat mitigated by how relatively powerful modern smartphones & tablets are compared to a decade ago - there is still a big gap between their power and that of laptop & desktop computers, but they have enough power to do a range of operations that are a big part of peoples daily computing needs. But this breaks down as soon as we start talking about pro apps, and it will take more than Microsofts entry into the new tablet era to change that. Their Pro tablets are unlikely to have escaped all of the flaws that dogged their original generation of tablet pc's.

Especially as the UI gains which ushered in this era are not necessarily all they are cracked up to be. Its very easy to see how Microsoft may have completely failed when designing Office for touch, its slightly harder to describe in detail how they could have succeeded. There are probably some painful years ahead as people try to design their way around a variety of issues.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Yet a lot of web sites and some desktop apps have already started being informed by tablet/mobile interfaces, and have inherited elements like massive text and huge buttons.
> 
> I think this trend will continue, where possible/applicable, particularly as more desktops and laptops adopt touchscreens (which they will).


That's a style that was happening before mobile interfaces - about simplifying horrible complex pages with umpteen confusing menus down to a few key bits of text and buttons to do stuff. Very Web 2.0. I remember when Vimeo started and how much of a contrast it was to YouTube's nasty interface.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 18, 2012)

editor said:


> Yet a lot of web sites and some desktop apps have already started being informed by tablet/mobile interfaces, and have inherited elements like massive text and huge buttons.


For simple applications, I agree that convergence is possible and even good. The web is a good example, as it has a very limited set of possible interactions. Single click, enter text, a handful of buttons.


> I think this trend will continue, where possible/applicable, particularly as more desktops and laptops become touchscreen.


I think this trend has limits that are imposed by the smaller set of interactions you can make with a touch interface. KB/mouse has the great advantage of having a wide bandwidth of input available without having to move one's hands very far. All the software I use at work has keyboard shortcuts for activating and modifying tools, which are then manipulated with the mouse. Meanwhile, no part of the screen is obscured by my hands, and interface elements can be relatively small. I don't see how touch interfaces can replicate that breadth of control and display.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That's a style that was happening before mobile interfaces - about simplifying horrible complex pages with umpteen confusing menus down to a few key bits of text and buttons to do stuff. Very Web 2.0. I remember when Vimeo started and how much of a contrast it was to YouTube's nasty interface.


Well, yes, sort of, but a lot of Web 2.0 interfaces still had small text all over the shop.

http://www.designzzz.com/fresh-examples-of-web-2-0-design-interfaces/


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 18, 2012)

Crispy said:


> I think this trend has limits that are imposed by the smaller set of interactions you can make with a touch interface. KB/mouse has the great advantage of having a wide bandwidth of input available without having to move one's hands very far. All the software I use at work has keyboard shortcuts for activating and modifying tools, which are then manipulated with the mouse. Meanwhile, no part of the screen is obscured by my hands, and interface elements can be relatively small. I don't see how touch interfaces can replicate that breadth of control and display.


Yep, it's similar using a music sequencer nowadays. One hand on a multitouch trackpad for scrolling, zooming, clicking etc, the other doing keyboard shortcuts to select tools, bring up new windows, perform certain operations etc. It's extremely fast and efficient.


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## magneze (Sep 18, 2012)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> As far as I can see, if I was running Win8 on a desktop I'd never want to use the metro interface. And if it was on a tablet I'd never want to use the classic one.
> 
> So what's the point? They're trying to shoehorn two completely different sets of requirements into one place.


It's a classic mistake.

Who are our users? Everyone!

Um, no.


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## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

In view of todays discussion I went back and watched the Microsoft Surface announcement.

Given what we know about Office, its a good thing they made that keyboard & touchpad cover for the Surface! Perhaps they are actually trying to be clever, differentiating their offering by retaining the traditional UI, which also takes care of some of the UI issues people have just been discussing here. They want that mode to be available, and I should keep that in mind when recoiling in horror at how that sort of UI and Office work with multitouch.

Where they have missed a trick in my opinion, is on what used to be referred to as the Metro side of things. The success of Windows 8 in general and certainly these tablets rests to a great extent on how good and plentiful the apps end up being for this side of things. What I would have done with Office, is retain the traditional UI version for doing more complex tasks using keyboard, trackpad and/or stylus, but also have a really nice Metro interfaced version that actually allows some stuff to be done really well using multitouch, expanding on what Apple did with their iWork offerings for iPad. These two different interfaces would be bundled as one app, with exactly the same engine & file support underneath, just different UIs that are easy to switch between. Maybe they have actually done this but are keeping it for a great launch surprise, but Im not holding my breath!

AlsoI have to say there have been notable glitches, either simple visual ones or painful ones where the user struggling to make the device do what the user wants, on pretty much all of the Windows 8 tablet video demos I've seen, including the Surface 8 announcement one by MS themselves. Couple that with concerns about how well the new look apps UI is going to go down for traditional desktop& laptop users, at least to start with, and Iam still left wondering whether I am excitedly looking forward to the launch of a great new platform or whether Im anticipating a great train wreck that will go down in geek history.

Put it this way, Im glad Microsoft decided to make the Surface and not just leave it to everyone else, even though there is nothing obviously wrong with many of the product announcements so far. If the thinner version of the Surface keyboard & trackpad isnt a complete horror to use, then I really quite like the design of Microsofts offering, including the stand. Even though I've yet to see the stylus live up to its imagined potential for anything beyond very specific creative input, I am sad that its not available for the RT Surface, only the Pro offering. I know I keep boring on about the potential pro downsides, but watching the Surface announcement again I was especially scared by the heat vent band that goes around the sides. They claim you wont feel it, I dont believe them.

If these things launch with stutters and splutters of one kind or another then I'm going to be all sad, and will retreat away from Microsoft for what feels like the zillionth time, buy myself a keyboard for the iPad and check in every 6 months to see if the situation has improved.

Oh yes Im getting ready for foaming and fireworks in the IT world for the rest of the year, with perhaps Apples own maps offering in iOS 6 providing the fuel until Windows 8 actually launches. I can almost hear the collective groans already.


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## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

And now the latest Im my trawl of videos that manage to tease the potential whilst also strongly hinting at impending doom. More than a purple parachute is required to save them!

Includes that bizarre Dell pivot screen model at one point.


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## elbows (Sep 18, 2012)

Another look at that wonderfully bonkers dual-screen model.



Well thats battleships and connect 4-capable forms sorted


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Sep 18, 2012)

> If you want the full power of Windows 8, you'll need to step up to the Asus Vivo Tab (TF810C). This model has slightly better specs, with an Atom Z2760 processor, an 11.6-inch display that supports a Wacom pen digitizer (albeit still at 1366x768), 2GB RAM, and 64GB storage. For those upgrades, however, you'll pay $799, or $998 with the keyboard dock.
> 
> But the most boggling item on Asus' slide is a device called the Taichi. We aren't told much about its specs, except that it has an "innovative" dual-screen 11.6-inch IPS panel running at 1920x1080. Open the clamshell, and you can use the Taichi like a laptop. Close it, and the screen on the other side of the lid acts as a tablet. For this, you'll pay $1,299.
> 
> Here at _El Reg_, we think these prices sound a little crazy. A quick trip over to Dell's website reveals that an entry-level Windows 7 laptop can be had today for just $399. It comes with an Intel Core processor – not an Atom – a bigger screen, more RAM, a hefty hard disk, and a DVD drive.


 
The Reg

Strikes me for now you'd be better of for now buying a laptop and a nexus 7 and have a shit load of money left for beer.


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## elbows (Oct 9, 2012)

A preview of an Asus atom model, almost a review except all the details about windows 8 we are used to not hearing about are unsurprisingly still missing:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/9/3475334/acer-iconia-w510-preview-windows-8

As with another article I read on that site, like me they arent terribly impressed with apps on android hybrids, so I suppose I shoudnt be surprised that they mention how much better Windows 8 will be for this sort of machine. But due to the wide range of stuff they dont discuss about windows 8 yet, including apps (all we do hear about is mostly bad UI design), they cant actually back this assumption up with anything yet.

In terms of what they can talk about, it sounds like in some ways such as limited keyboard & trackpad size, not to mention raw power, this device is more comparable to a netbook than an ultra book. Oh that sounds stronger than I meant, and the tablet & swish OS advances of recent years mean that a tablet-netbook hybrid is far more attractive than netbooks ever were, I'm just trying to imply that in some ways these devices dont quite square up to ultrabooks.


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## editor (Oct 9, 2012)

You know the best thing about a touchscreen laptop? That's being able to scroll through webpages with your fingers around the screen without have to fiddle about with a itty-bitty trackpad.


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## elbows (Oct 11, 2012)

Now the spec of this one is far more like an ultrabook, although in this case the build quality and brand is somewhat questionable, and the downside of powerful cpu's is in evidence with the large fan vent on the bottom.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/10/kupa-ultranote-windows-8-modular-tablet-hands-on-video/


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

Well details of Sony's slider model are all over the net now, and it appears to have the downsides I was expecting, plus an additional one - no trackpad.

Starts at £999 but you dont get a really powerful cpu etc unless you spend more than that.

And the battery, oh the battery. Rather unsurprisingly since this is still a 'normal laptop' as far as cpu etc go, they are claiming a 5 hour life, with an additional battery available to boost the life. 

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/features/laptop/3404353/sony-vaio-duo-11-pictures/


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

A review. Sounds like the screen is very nice but in most other ways this device is flawed.

http://www.cnet.com/laptops/sony-vaio-duo-11/4505-3121_7-35477656-2.html


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

More indications of pricing. This time not official and only in dollars but covering the various Asus devices mentioned earlier in this thread. No nice surprises as best I can tell. Broadly the only intriguing prices Im still waiting for are Microsofts own Surface offerings and the sort of price that the atom-based Windows 8 models will come in at.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/12/asus-taichi-21-and-vivobook-x202-go-up-for-us-pre-orders/



> The dual-screened TAICHI 21 is naturally the star of the show, but it will cost you: a base version of the 11.6-inch hybrid with a 1.7GHz Core i5, 4GB of RAM and a 128GB SSD starts at $1,300, while an uprated model with a 1.9GHz Core i7 and a 256GB SSD will set early adopters back by $1,600. We'd say the VivoBook X202 is more likely to get some purchases sight-unseen at $600 for an entry laptop with an 11.6-inch touchscreen, a 1.8GHz Core i3, 4GB of RAM and a conventional 500GB hard drive.


 
http://blogs.computerworld.com/wind...preordered-599-price-itll-be-tough-beat-ipads



> The pricing for one of the first wave of Windows RT tablets is here, and it won't come cheap. The ASUS Vivo Tab RT 10-inch tablet can be preordered right now from Newegg, and it'll set you back $599. At that price, it'll be tough to compete against iPads.​The ASUS Vivo Tab RT listed for sale on Newegg comes with 32GB of storage, 2GB of memory, and a 10.1-inch 1280 by 800 touchscreen. There's also a MicroSD slot and an HDMI port. As for the processor, it's a bit confusing, because the site it as having a NVIDIA Tegra 3 processor, which is a quad core, but also lists a single core processor. My guess is that the single core processor listing is an error.​At $599, this is not a budget tablet. And that's its problem. You can get an iPad for $499, although it comes with 16GB of storage. For $599, you can get the 32 GB storage version. Will many people buy a Windows RT tablet at the same price as an iPad? I think not. And remember, Windows RT tablets are expected to be budget tablets, with the full-blown Windows 8 tablets being more expensive.​


​I wouldnt be half as down on the price as that article is if only the screen resolution was a bit more like an ipad 3 than an ipad 2. Or if these RT tablets were cheaper than ipad 3's, and the atom-based ones were only a little more expensive than an iPad 3. This would give the tablet end of the windows 8 platform more of a chance for very rapid growth, but at these prices it will be a longer struggle more reliant on loads of quality apps.​​


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## editor (Oct 12, 2012)

Nothing to shift me off my £399 Asus Transformer then!


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2012)

I don't think any of these early Win8 tablets are going to sell worth a damn. The key is going to be general success for Win8 (if and when that happens) - people aren't going to spend iPad-type prices without an actual platform behind them.

If anything will get that going, it's conventional laptops with touchscreens which will drive Win8, and that might result in a subsidiary tablet market that then grows. The trouble with that is that, if people are buying touchscreen laptops, what you then get written for them is laptop software - with maybe a bit of touch involved, but since it also has to work for desktops, touch isn't going to be primary. So you have software that has potentially handy touch controls but which isn't designed for a touch-only device. So it's still crap for tablets. So people don't buy the tablets. I can certainly see that as a possibility.


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

editor said:


> Nothing to shift me off my £399 Asus Transformer then!


Not unless Microsoft really upset their OEM partners by pricing the Surface RT in a highly competitive manner.

I'm not sure they should feel the need to do this given that quality touch-friendly windows 8 apps should emerge even if one or two types of windows 8 tablet dont set the world on fire. Since even many lower end laptops look likely to have touchscreens from now on, touch-based software should filter through the whole ecosystem and give windows some kind of tablet app edge eventually.

But if they are terribly afraid that a failure to shift impressive numbers of their own Surface hardware will lead to an overall loss of momentum and repeated embarrassing comparisons between them and Apple in the press, then they might just go a bit rabid on price.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2012)

I know I keep banging on about the thing, but the Asus really is an unbelievably good machine for the price. My laptop hasn't been touched once since I bought it.


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't think any of these early Win8 tablets are going to sell worth a damn. The key is going to be general success for Win8 (if and when that happens) - people aren't going to spend iPad-type prices without an actual platform behind them.


 
Well we are going to find out quite how powerful an illusion the Windows brand is capable of instilling in people. I have no idea how many people might be out there who have a thing about having a 'proper computer with windows' and have considered everything else too much like a toy up till this point. 

I certainly never yet detected any real buzz about Windows beyond the traditional computer, eg Windows Phone. I actually found a young chap at my former workplace who had a windows 7 phone, and I was hoping to learn about what made it appealing. But it turns out he hated it and only had it because of price since he had broken his previous smartphone and is more of a student than an earner at this point.



> If anything will get that going, it's conventional laptops with touchscreens which will drive Win8, and that might result in a subsidiary tablet market that then grows. The trouble with that is that, if people are buying touchscreen laptops, what you then get written for them is laptop software - with maybe a bit of touch involved, but since it also has to work for desktops, touch isn't going to be primary. So you have software that has potentially handy touch controls but which isn't designed for a touch-only device. So it's still crap for tablets. So people don't buy the tablets. I can certainly see that as a possibility.


 
I think thats likely to be true with certain classes of app, but not with others. The sort of apps that already work well on other mobile multitouch platforms now are going to be offered using the new Windows 8 UI pretty quickly in many cases I think. 

Where I can completely agree is that there is no magical aspect of Windows which will suddenly make a load of really powerful apps, deeper than we have seen on the ipad, sprout forth with wonderfully formed multitouch interfaces that are such a joy to use compared to the traditional mouse way of doing those heavier tasks. If that happens it will be through hard work of developers, great design, and some evidence that the right class of tablet has sold in sufficient numbers to make it worth bothering. However given the relative lack of apps of this sort on other platforms, it wouldnt take too many established windows software developers to have a speculative punt in this direction for the windows 8 app scene to look pretty compelling pretty quickly.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2012)

Another thing about this is that I think MS are partly banking on the fact that corporate IT will be much more likely to get tablets if they are Windows ones, and the reason they (generally) haven't so far is that they've not been Windows.

I don't think this is true - I think corporate IT (at least on the funding side) is just sceptical of tablets full stop, and in fact anything new. They'll set up people's emails for their personal iPads (the major driver) or load image galleries onto iPads for sales, but that's pretty much it. They will generally say "use your laptop, and if you can't do that, leave your desktop on and VPN into it if you must". Tablets just aren't considered valid work devices - they don't even have the advantages of smartphones, which are actually at least phones too so have an obvious business case behind them. I see nothing about Win8 tablets that's going to change that.


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

editor said:


> I know I keep banging on about the thing, but the Asus really is an unbelievably good machine for the price. My laptop hasn't been touched once since I bought it.


 
My interest in developing tablet apps dooms me to remain behind a laptop most of the time, since I cant actually develop the apps on the devices themselves . This makes me sad, although I got rid of the blues for now by putting a ssd in my laptop.

Unless it crashes a lot or suffers from battery issues, I would really quite like to own a Surface RT or one of the atom ones, depending on how things turn out. I'm in no hurry to make this decision since I have no money and I have to see evidence of these devices selling before I devote any development time to it.


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## elbows (Oct 12, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Another thing about this is that I think MS are partly banking on the fact that corporate IT will be much more likely to get tablets if they are Windows ones, and the reason they (generally) haven't so far is that they've not been Windows.
> 
> I don't think this is true - I think corporate IT (at least on the funding side) is just sceptical of tablets full stop, and in fact anything new. They'll set up people's emails for their personal iPads (the major driver) or load image galleries onto iPads for sales, but that's pretty much it. They will generally say "use your laptop, and if you can't do that, leave your desktop on and VPN into it if you must". Tablets just aren't considered valid work devices - they don't even have the advantages of smartphones, which are actually at least phones too so have an obvious business case behind them. I see nothing about Win8 tablets that's going to change that.


 
It might be slightly more bankable than you suggest if Microsoft are considering a longer trend, where tablets and hybrids and multitouch in silly places becomes more normal. They dont need a roaring success overnight, but they need to have something capable to respond with if a time comes where the use of tablets around the margins of corporate land starts to become a bit more than that, a bit more of a threat.

Barriers to big shifts on this front include the software issues we discussed, and also the fact that the ultrabook class of tablets are still going to suffer several of the key downsides that made windows tablets so unsuccessful earlier this century. All that heat, weight and battery stuff I moaned about many times before, its only getting better in very small steps when it comes to machines based around intels 'proper' cpus.


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## c01642 (Oct 15, 2012)

How about an all-in-one desktop tablet hybrid, imagine getting on the bus with one of these.

http://microsoft-news.com/a-look-at-the-sony-vaio-tap-20an-actual-20-inch-windows-8-tablet/


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## elbows (Oct 15, 2012)

It would be quite good for multi-player board games etc.


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## Crispy (Oct 15, 2012)

I wondered when we'd start seeing "tablets" that big. Very interesting 
Although it is a sony desktop and will therefore be shit


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## Sunray (Oct 15, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Another thing about this is that I think MS are partly banking on the fact that corporate IT will be much more likely to get tablets if they are Windows ones, and the reason they (generally) haven't so far is that they've not been Windows.
> 
> I don't think this is true - I think corporate IT (at least on the funding side) is just sceptical of tablets full stop, and in fact anything new. They'll set up people's emails for their personal iPads (the major driver) or load image galleries onto iPads for sales, but that's pretty much it. They will generally say "use your laptop, and if you can't do that, leave your desktop on and VPN into it if you must". Tablets just aren't considered valid work devices - they don't even have the advantages of smartphones, which are actually at least phones too so have an obvious business case behind them. I see nothing about Win8 tablets that's going to change that.


 
Not true, I work for a large multinational and iPads abound, so I think its a Microsoft trying to compete with Apple in a space Apple totally dominate.


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## elbows (Oct 23, 2012)

Confirmation of the wacky Asus dual screen prices:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/23/asus-taichi-pricing-availability/


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

A UK price for an atom model. The HP Envy x2 will be £799, ouch.

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/47249/hp-envy-x2-pictures-preview


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## editor (Oct 24, 2012)

£799, you say?


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## elbows (Oct 24, 2012)

Indeed.

I suppose it isnt too surprising considering how pricey the RT ARM tablets get when you go for a keyboard option and more storage, and it would make no sense for the atom ones to be the same price or cheaper.

If the performance turns out to be great and other manufacturers are slightly cheaper, or there are discounts over time, then these atom machines may stand some sort of chance, as in theory they offer the full windows experience. But its sort of hard to get round the fact that they arent as powerful as ultrabooks, tend to be slightly bulkier than ultrabooks, and will probably seem even more stupidly priced when compared to the cheap windows 8 laptops with touchscreens that are coming out. Just buy a cheap laptop and a tablet for a not entirely dissimilar amount of money.

The price and balance of compromises does not seem quite right to me yet, though I'll still keep one eye on this stuff due to my interest in pressure-sensitive stylus. I get the idea it might be a while before we get a proper review of an atom windows 8 hybrid, not sure when the first ones are actually due out.


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