# Apple unveils 128GB iPad with sky high prices



## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

Boy oh boy, it's pricey - the 128GB tablet comes in Wi-Fi-only and cellular data models for $799 and $929


> *The 128GB iPad Is Real, It’s Here, and It’s Almost Definitely Not For You*
> 
> Apple let a 128GB iPad out of the bag today. And there's almost zero chance you should buy it.
> 
> ...


http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/01/29Apple-Increases-iPad-with-Retina-Display-to-128GB.html


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## RaverDrew (Jan 29, 2013)

I don't get it ? I thought flash memory was dirt cheap and constantly dropping in price. Why do all the manufacturers of these devices (not just apple, all of em do it) add such a huge mark-up for more storage ?


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> I don't get it ? I thought flash memory was dirt cheap and constantly dropping in price. Why do all the manufacturers of these devices (not just apple, all of em do it) add such a huge mark-up for more storage ?


Or just add a microSD card slot and let users add their own dirt cheap storage?

Ah, well, that's kind of obvious really, isn't it?


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## RaverDrew (Jan 29, 2013)

Say for instance, a 32gb usb memory stick costs around £15, and a 64gb usb memory stick costs around £30, then why is there at least a £100 price difference between a 32gb model and 64gb model of the same phone ?


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## RaverDrew (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> Or just add a microSD card slot and let users add their own dirt cheap storage?
> 
> Ah, well, that's kind of obvious really, isn't it?


 
It seems, so, and I spose once they start forcing people onto cloud storage, there'll be more money to be made on subscriptions etc


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> It seems, so, and I spose once they start forcing people onto cloud storage, there'll be more money to be made on subscriptions etc


Bit tricky to force people onto specific cloud storage services though when there's so many dirt cheap ones to choose from.


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## RaverDrew (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> Bit tricky to force people onto specific cloud storage services though when there's so many dirt cheap ones to choose from.


 
Cheap atm, and for limited storage, once we're all strong-armed into using them, then I'm sure they'll start charging for even the most basic of services.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> Bit tricky to force people onto specific cloud storage services though when there's so many dirt cheap ones to choose from.


 
Sure, but many people will go for the one that's nicely integrated into the device.


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> Sure, but many people will go for the one that's nicely integrated into the device.


Several of the competing services I already use are very well integrated in my device, but no doubt Apple will do it 'differently.'


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> Cheap atm, and for limited storage, once we're all strong-armed into using them, then I'm sure they'll start charging for even the most basic of services.


You think firms like Dropbox are going to start charging for even basic hosting? I don't.


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## RaverDrew (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> You think firms like Dropbox are going to start charging for even basic hosting? I don't.


 
As we're forced to use cloud storage more and more, their basic free services just aren't going to cut it, even for the lightest of users.


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> As we're forced to use cloud storage more and more, their basic free services just aren't going to cut it, even for the lightest of users.


How am I being 'forced' into buying cloud storage?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> How am I being 'forced' into buying cloud storage?


 
Getting rid of SD slots and charging silly prices for more memory.


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## Lemon Eddy (Jan 29, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> As we're forced to use cloud storage more and more, their basic free services just aren't going to cut it, even for the lightest of users.


 
Even the free services are growing in size to the sort of levels that will do you just fine, and that's before Google decide that they can subsidize hefty amounts of space just to get people into their user base, and tempt them away from Apple.

Just now sure that Apple are playing at these days.


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> Getting rid of SD slots.


I've got one, nay two, on my Asus Transformer, and there's one in my phone too - and I can always hook up an external flash drive if I fancy. 

I don't feel like I'm being 'forced' to do anything, and if it bothers me that much, I'll just make sure that the next phone I buy has a microSD slot. Problem solved.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> How am I being 'forced' into buying cloud storage?


the ghost of jobs visits you nightly and keeps you awake until you succumb... 

it's obvious in ever anti apple bile soaked barb...


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> I've got one, nay two, on my Asus Transformer, and there's one in my phone too - and I can always hook up an external flash drive if I fancy.
> 
> I don't feel like I'm being 'forced' to do anything, and if it bothers me that much, I'll just make sure that the next phone I buy has a microSD slot. Problem solved.


 
Maybe "forced" is a bit strong, but the choice is certainly being reduced...for example although I really like the build quality of HTCs premium phones, they've dumped them. The nexus 4 doesn't have one and nor do a lot of LGs.


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

GarfieldLeChat said:


> it's obvious in ever anti apple bile soaked barb...


Is that some sort of new bubble bath?


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> Maybe "forced" is a bit strong, but the choice is certainly being reduced...for example although I really like the build quality of HTCs premium phones, they've dumped them. The nexus 4 doesn't have one and nor do a lot of LGs.


But loads of phones offer SD card slots so there's still ample consumer choice, unless you're helplessly tied to just one individually brand, of course.


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> Is that some sort of new bubble bath?


indeed it comes with a free skin care Balmer


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)

I nearly bought a Samsung 250GB SSD on Suday for £120 delivered on special offer - just to give people an idea of how much a rip this is (and Apple aren't the only guilty ones).

http://www.ebuyer.com/409850-samsun...td250bw?utm_source=google&utm_medium=products

*Samsung 250GB 840 Series SSD*


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## GarfieldLeChat (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> I nearly bought a Samsung 250GB SSD on Suday for £120 delivered on special offer - just to give people an idea of how much a rip this is (and Apple aren't the only guilty ones).
> 
> http://www.ebuyer.com/409850-samsun...td250bw?utm_source=google&utm_medium=products
> 
> *Samsung 250GB 840 Series SSD*


they've got a chrome one for sale in my local CEX for £300 as if you'd spend that on that...

It's the new tech premiume isn't it.

Initial prices are made to recoup the original dev costs as quickley as possible.

After which they are then merely covering the cost of the unit price which after a certain break even point become cheaper...

the issue with things like this and also what killed the HP touch pad etc is that tech companies a) spend way to much on vanity projects where they cannot recoup their R&D spend and 2) expect to recoup that R&D spend in shorter and shorter periods


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

I can definitely see the advantages in certain applications of having that much space on a tablet (there's several I could use it with for starters), but yeah, that price is rather silly.


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)

Just imagine all the photos and hours of video footage you'd be able to take at gigs with it. Stick a light on it for an extra $200 and you have a bargin


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> Just imagine all the photos and hours of video footage you'd be able to take at gigs with it. Stick a light on it for an extra $200 and you have a bargin


Just think of the amount of 32 track, 24bit wav file multitrack recordings I could put on it


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## Firky (Jan 29, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Just think of the amount of 32 track, 24bit wav file multitrack recordings I could put on it


 
Take you years to transfer them across to another device though 

USB2 trickle.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> Take you years to transfer them across to another device though
> 
> USB2 trickle.


I just leave stuff like that going overnight when I go to bed. Same for large downloads/torrents.


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## souljacker (Jan 29, 2013)

firky said:


> Take you years to transfer them across to another device though
> 
> USB2 trickle.


 
I was going to jump on that and point out that it would actually be 20GB/s because lightning connectors are thunderbolt connectors and therefore really speedy.

But on investigation, turns out they aren't. They are basically USB2. What the fuck Apple?


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## editor (Jan 29, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I just leave stuff like that going overnight when I go to bed. Same for large downloads/torrents.


Well there's a new high in productivity, right there.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> But loads of phones offer SD card slots so there's still ample consumer choice, unless you're helplessly tied to just one individually brand, of course.


 
You don't spot a trend here?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

editor said:


> Well there's a new high in productivity, right there.


Works for me. I tend to get in from work gigs around 2am. Dump any files I have recorded, go to bed, there they are ready to edit in the morning.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

Another apple thread?yawn etc.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Works for me. I tend to get in from work gigs around 2am. Dump any files I have recorded, go to bed, there they are ready to edit in the morning.


 
I reckon this is a predictable move by Apple, they're clearly trying to cannibalise their Macbook Air line with this aggressive move...


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## skyscraper101 (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I reckon this is a predictable move by Apple, they're clearly trying to cannibalise their Macbook Air line with this aggressive move...


 
I'd still choose a macbook air over this. Especially at those prices.


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## souljacker (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> I reckon this is a predictable move by Apple, they're clearly trying to cannibalise their Macbook Air line with this aggressive move...


 
Why on earth would they do that?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

souljacker said:


> Why on earth would they do that?


 
They did it with the iPod by the iPhone, it's what their business model is partly based on...


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They did it with the iPod by the iPhone, it's what their business model is partly based on...


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## souljacker (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They did it with the iPod by the iPhone, it's what their business model is partly based on...


 
No it isn't. Their business model is based on the app ecosystem for iOS devices and the hardware sales of OSX systems.

Are you honestly saying that the iPhone has cannabilised iPod?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

souljacker said:


> No it isn't. Their business model is based on the app ecosystem for iOS devices and the hardware sales of OSX systems.
> 
> Are you honestly saying that the iPhone has cannabilised iPod?


 
How many people bought an iPod once they had an iPhone?


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## souljacker (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How many people bought an iPod once they had an iPhone?


 
Loads. Myself included.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> How many people bought an iPod once they had an iPhone?


Put it this way, I have an iPad and an Air. Even if my iPad had more storage they'd fill different (but complimentary) roles.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

souljacker said:


> Loads. Myself included.


 
Ok, well you're clearly a minority, the numbers paint a different picture:








And in case you're still confused about the self canniblisation strategy, here's CEO Tim Cook on the subject:



> "I think cannibalization is a huge opportunity for us," Cook said during Apple's fiscal first quarter conference call. "Our base philosophy is to never fear cannibalization. If we do, somebody else will just cannibalize it. We never fear it. We know iPhone has cannibalized some iPod business, we know iPad has cannibalized some Macs, and that doesn't worry us."


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Put it this way, I have an iPad and an Air. Even if my iPad had more storage they'd fill different (but complimentary) roles.


 
For some people yes but for most people increasingly they're basically the same thing.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> For some people yes but for most people increasingly they're basically the same thing.


Your graph suggests otherwise...


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## souljacker (Jan 29, 2013)

Fair enough, I concede that Apple is looking to cannabilise markets. But they are utterly stupid to believe that a 128gb iPad could affect macbook sales. People dont buy iPads as macbook/imac replacements. They buy them to complement the apple ecosystem they are part of. Same with iPods and iPhones.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Your graph suggests otherwise...


 
Er so people who buy laptops from Apple are increasingly buying iPads and that suggests that people don't see them as basically the same thing? Everyone knows that tablets are set to take over from laptops...that couldn't happen if most people saw a massive difference between the two devices....it's a done deal tbh, the futures here...if a little unevenly distributed.


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## souljacker (Jan 29, 2013)

Also, your graph is showing how many iPhones are sold, rather than how many iPods are not sold due to iPhone sales.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

souljacker said:


> Fair enough, I concede that Apple is looking to cannabilise markets. But they are utterly stupid to believe that a 128gb iPad could affect macbook sales. People dont buy iPads as macbook/imac replacements. They buy them to complement the apple ecosystem they are part of. Same with iPods and iPhones.


 
People do. And increasingly will. Why do you think the entire windows industry is now rushing to create tablets with detachable keyboards? Or crowbarring tablet like functionality into 'laptops' by adding touch screens?


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## Kid_Eternity (Jan 29, 2013)

souljacker said:


> Also, your graph is showing how many iPhones are sold, rather than how many iPods are not sold due to iPhone sales.


 
All right mate, you keep banging your head against the 'on the face of it' literalist wall...


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## souljacker (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> People do. And increasingly will. Why do you think the entire windows industry is now rushing to create tablets with detachable keyboards? Or crowbarring tablet like functionality into 'laptops' by adding touch screens?


 
Utter gibberish. I'll always return to my desktop, even over my laptop. Its a more comfortable way of interacting with a computer. I use my iPad or my iPhone to check stuff when I'm not in front of my desktop, watch a bit of skygo, play some games. But its not where I prefer to interact or create stuff on a device. That will always be on a device with a big screen and a comfie keyboard.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jan 29, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Er so people who buy laptops from Apple are increasingly buying iPads and that suggests that people don't see them as basically the same thing?


Your graph shows that iPad sales are up and macbook sales are fairly constant. That dosen't suggest to me people are ditching one for the other. It suggest people are buying both.


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## mrs quoad (Jan 30, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Ok, well you're clearly a minority, the numbers paint a different picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What in God's name do you think that shows? Let alone evidences?

e2a: I also can't help but think that whoever put that graph together might've come up with a more constructive division / unit on the y axis than 6.25m


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jan 30, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Er so people who buy laptops from Apple are increasingly buying iPads and that suggests that people don't see them as basically the same thing? Everyone knows that tablets are set to take over from laptops...that couldn't happen if most people saw a massive difference between the two devices....it's a done deal tbh, the futures here...if a little unevenly distributed.


 
Tablets are going to increasingly eat in to laptop sales as a method of media consumption. That's a given. However if you think they are their replacement then your deluded by a long way. Belive it or not many of us need a keyboard and a proper OS. Doesn't mean we won't own a tablet as well.


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## sim667 (Jan 30, 2013)

My god, they've basically extended their range for a the top end of their market, and everyone's started bleating in like they've nuked a small country


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 4, 2013)

sim667 said:


> My god, they've basically extended their range for a the top end of their market, and everyone's started bleating in like they've nuked a small country


 
Heh yeah well you know how it is. This is one tech company that produces some very odd psychological responses in some people.


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## Elvis Parsley (Feb 4, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Heh yeah well you know how it is. This is one tech company that produces some very odd phycological responses in some people.


eh? Apple products cause people to want to study algae? That's weird even for you.

No, actually what's really weird is you return to a thread where previously you've posted a load of nonsense and a meaningless graph, with 5 day late comeback about _other_ posters acting odd. Why bother? Or is this some weird _psychological_ response to people disagreeing with you?


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## sim667 (Feb 4, 2013)

Elvis Parsley said:


> eh? Apple products cause people to want to study algae? That's weird even for you.
> 
> No, actually what's really weird is you return to a thread where previously you've posted a load of nonsense and a meaningless graph, with 5 day late comeback about _other_ posters acting odd. Why bother? Or is this some weird _psychological_ response to people disagreeing with you?



Algae studiers united will have their pitchforks out


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 4, 2013)

Elvis Parsley said:


> eh? Apple products cause people to want to study algae? That's weird even for you.
> 
> No, actually what's really weird is you return to a thread where previously you've posted a load of nonsense and a meaningless graph, with 5 day late comeback about _other_ posters acting odd. Why bother? Or is this some weird _psychological_ response to people disagreeing with you?


 
Oh c'mon it was just a stupid typo. Who are you to decide when a person should post and about what?


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## Elvis Parsley (Feb 4, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Oh c'mon it was just a stupid typo. Who are you to decide when a person should post and about what?


i don't understand your use of the facepalm smiley. i didn't say anything about whether or not, or what content, people should be allowed to post.


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## Barking_Mad (Feb 5, 2013)

editor said:


> But loads of phones offer SD card slots so there's still ample consumer choice, unless you're helplessly tied to just one individually brand, of course.


 
There is a trend amongst certain manufacturers to remove SD slots on phones. It will have to be watched to see if others pick up on this also.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 12, 2013)

Barking_Mad said:


> There is a trend amongst certain manufacturers to remove SD slots on phones. It will have to be watched to see if others pick up on this also.


 
They're about as fit for the future as floppy discs...


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> They're about as fit for the future as floppy discs...


 
Meanwhile outside of areas with high speed data connections...hang on even they can't deliver what I want.

Yes I'd love them not be necessary, but the UK is a long way of that utopia you seem to be after.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

SD cards won't be leaving cameras any time soon.


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## Firky (Feb 13, 2013)

I can see some cameras being released which won't have SD cards and rely on bluetooth / internet or whatever to transfer images but the need to have a real physical copy, a digital negative of sorts, will always be there.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

firky said:


> I can see some cameras being released which won't have SD cards and rely on bluetooth / internet or whatever to transfer images but the need to have a real physical copy, a digital negative of sorts, will always be there.


If you were a pro covering a war zone would you prefer to have small SD cards which you can hide on your body (as well as the usual back ups) or be entirely reliant on a Bluetooth/wi-fi connection to transfer your images?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

editor said:


> If you were a pro covering a war zone would you prefer to have small SD cards which you can hide on your body (as well as the usual back ups) or be entirely reliant on a Bluetooth/wi-fi connection to transfer your images?


I think its the pro's that wil always need SD or whatever takes over from it, but consumer stuff seems to be ever marching towards a wireless future. No bad thing either IMO.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I think its the pro's that wil always need SD or whatever takes over from it, but consumer stuff seems to be ever marching towards a wireless future. No bad thing either IMO.


Wireless is great for cameras so long as it comes _with_ a SD card slot too. I'd never buy a camera without some kind of removable physical storage onboard.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I think its the pro's that wil always need SD or whatever takes over from it, but consumer stuff seems to be ever marching towards a wireless future. No bad thing either IMO.


 
Unless you like hill walking or going anywhere which doesn't have decent 3g. Or abroad with stupid roaming charges.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

In fact even with an HSDPA connection when I am at the moment, even my phone takes 4 meg pics, soif I snap 20 shots that's going to take a while.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Wireless is great for cameras so long as it comes _with_ a SD card slot too. I'd never buy a camera without some kind of removable physical storage onboard.


Yeah, but you're a pro. Imagine a camera aimed at non techies - you take pics on it and without having to do anything they magically end up in the photo folder on your laptop/ipad/dropbox/whatever. No cables, no having to plug cards in to a reader, no button pushing other than the shutter. Tech as it should be, seamless.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yeah, but you're a pro. Imagine a camera aimed at non techies - you take pics on it and without having to do anything they magically end up in the photo folder on your laptop/ipad/whatever. No cables, no having to plug cards in to a reader. Tech as it should be, seamless.


Except they rarely do. Most people can't even manage to transfer the images off their phones.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> In fact even with an HSDPA connection when I am at the moment, even my phone takes 4 meg pics, soif I snap 20 shots that's going to take a while.


Wireless will get faster, compression techniques will get better


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Except they rarely do. Most people can't even manage to transfer the images off their phones.


Which is my point, this is where stuff needs to be heading. You take away all the bits that need people to faff/think/know what they are doing.

Buy the camera, install the app on your machine. Then start taking pictures. Nothing more. It would be great


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Which is my point, this is where stuff needs to be heading. You take away all the bits that need people to faff/think/know what they are doing.
> 
> Buy the camera, install the app on your machine. Then start taking pictures. Nothing more. It would be great


Yes, that's all great. But I'd still want the SD card on the camera. And how's your cardless future going to work when people go on long trips and swiftly run out of internal storage on their cameras?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes, that's all great. But I'd still want the SD card on the camera.


You would, yeah. But the vast majority of people probably wouldn't give a fuck. 



> And how's your cardless future going to work when people go on long trips and swiftly run out of internal storage on their cameras?


Just a few years back I was enjoying the connivence of a 128Mb memory stick. You can get 1 _terrabyte_ sticks now. Storage continues to get cheaper and smaller. It wouldn't be an issue for the majority of people.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 13, 2013)

Unfortunately the move is not so much towards getting people to transfer stuff to their computers wirelessly, over BT or whatever - which would be slow and a bit pointless but basically okay - but in fact to have them abandon the idea of using their own computer at all, and have everything on the cloud. Photography As A Service. Great for 3G and wireless providers, you need to have a fat data contract, and good for hosting companies who can tie you into your FB/Instagram/iCloud/Picasa account just that little bit more because that's where your photos are (that happens increasingly with FB, people only store them there). That part I don't like.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Wireless will get faster, compression techniques will get better


 
I do like your optimism, but image sizes keep getting bigger and plenty of places I take pics don't have phone signal full stop.

We'll also need quite an improvement in battery tech as well.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You would, yeah. But the vast majority of people probably wouldn't give a fuck.
> 
> 
> Just a few years back I was enjoying the connivence of a 128Mb memory stick. You can get 1 _terrabyte_ sticks now. Storage continues to get cheaper and smaller. It wouldn't be an issue for the majority of people.


 
Well quite...local storage is go to keep getting cheaper much faster then the networks will.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

Global Stoner said:


> image sizes keep getting bigger


Are we not approaching a point where (for consumer stuff at least) that will stop though? There's only so much data you need for knocking out 6x4 prints or website jpegs, surely?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Are we not approaching a point where (for consumer stuff at least) that will stop though? There's only so much data you need for knocking out 6x4 prints or website jpegs, surely?


 
Maybe your right, although they're still seem to upping the number of mega pixels, weather we want them or not.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Just a few years back I was enjoying the connivence of a 128Mb memory stick. You can get 1 _terrabyte_ sticks now. Storage continues to get cheaper and smaller. It wouldn't be an issue for the majority of people.


Yes. Memory sticks are as cheap as fuck. Now go look at the prices for built-in storage on iPads or whatever.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes. Memory sticks are as cheap as fuck. Now go look at the prices for built-in storage on iPads or whatever.


Yeah, I've never quite worked out why they get away with that one


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Are we not approaching a point where (for consumer stuff at least) that will stop though? There's only so much data you need for knocking out 6x4 prints or website jpegs, surely?


Except people keep on buying cameras with bigger and bigger mexapixel counts.
You can buy a 18MP camera for £120 at Argos.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Except people keep on buying cameras with bigger and bigger mexapixel counts.
> You can buy a 18MP camera for £120 at Argos.


Am I right in thinking there is a quality cutoff point, relating to sensor size vs megapixel count? Where imagine quality won't get any better and may actually be worse?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Am I right in thinking there is a quality cutoff point, relating to sensor size vs megapixel count? Where imagine quality won't get any better and may actually be worse?


 
It's already happened with small sensors.


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## editor (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Am I right in thinking there is a quality cutoff point, relating to sensor size vs megapixel count? Where imagine quality won't get any better and may actually be worse?


Sensors have improved massively - and keep on doing so - but there are huge compromises when millions of megapixels are squeezed on to tiny sensors. That said, an 18MP cheapo camera will more than likely outperform my older 5MP enthusiast compact in many areas (although maybe not so in low light), and sensor sizes in lower end cameras are getting bigger.


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## Firky (Feb 13, 2013)

editor said:


> Yes, that's all great. But I'd still want the SD card on the camera. And how's your cardless future going to work when people go on long trips and swiftly run out of internal storage on their cameras?


 
Yeh, same here. I do think people would buy a £200 digi-cam if it had an internal flash drive. Samsung released that camera with a touchscreen that had Facebook integrated into it. But as you say I think anyone above a casual snapper would want SD. I certainly do! Fast, pretty tough, extremely portable and universally available the world over.


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## Firky (Feb 13, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Am I right in thinking there is a quality cutoff point, relating to sensor size vs megapixel count? Where imagine quality won't get any better and may actually be worse?


 
The most important thing IMO is the glass. The glass dictates and governs everything and if glass is rubbish then it does not matter what is behind it - it is still going to be rubbish


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## Crispy (Feb 13, 2013)

It's like the critical component in a hifi setup being the speaker cables.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 13, 2013)

Sensor size does make a lot of difference though. Larger sensors can simply capture more detailed information, and the best lens in the universe isn't going to help that - a teeny phone sensor vs a full frame is like 110 film vs large format. And even cheap lenses these days are generally pretty good.


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## elbows (Feb 13, 2013)

Sensor is the most important thing for sure, so long as it isnt hampered by dodgy optics or terribly designed product/firmware then its where the action is.


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## Barking_Mad (Feb 13, 2013)

There's a trade off but if someone offered to me the choice between two camera's and one had 5mp more but a worse lens, I'd pick the one with the better lens. No brainer. 

I like removable storage devices but it's fairly obvious to see that media will move to solid state and uploading via 4G or wifi in the future. That won't mean an end to transferable storage but there will be a shift.


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## elbows (Feb 13, 2013)

Thing is when I say sensor, I'm not just talking about the megapixels.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Feb 13, 2013)

Barking_Mad said:


> There's a trade off but if someone offered to me the choice between two camera's and one had 5mp more but a worse lens, I'd pick the one with the better lens. No brainer.


 
The problem is comparing it...on cheaper cameras it's hard to get that kind of info.


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## Firky (Feb 14, 2013)

elbows said:


> Sensor is the most important thing for sure


 
Rubbish. How the light and the "quality" of that light as it hits the sensor is more important. What happens when it hits the sensor is still important but not as much. You wouldn't spend a fortune on an HDTV to watch VHS.

A lot of people make the mistake of sticking a cheap UV filter on their expensive lens to protect it. Totally understandable but counter-productive.


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## Firky (Feb 14, 2013)

Although Fridge is right, cheap lenses are pretty damn good these days. A prime lens is cheap and excellent. 50mm f/1.8 by Nikkor being one of the greatest lenses ever (along with it's Canon counterpart). Prime lenses are incredible value and offer the quality only seen on lenses five times the price of a prime.


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## elbows (Feb 14, 2013)

firky said:


> You wouldn't spend a fortune on an HDTV to watch VHS.


 
Thats a crap analogy. Anyway I didnt say the lens is unimportant, but there is no point having 'quality' light hitting a crap sensor. Anyway this argument can just go round and round, both matter and failings in either department can spoil the show.


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## elbows (Feb 14, 2013)

And the reason I say its a crap analogy is because either side of this argument could attempt to use it to support their case, when what its actually saying is that there is no point having one part of the system thats excellent if its let down by another part being crap. Regardless of which part, since either can drag the other down.


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## elbows (Feb 14, 2013)

I had a quick look and it seems there are no end of arguments about this on the net, occasionally punctuated with comments about the photographer being the most important thing. If lenses eventually come to 'win the argument' again its only because sensors have improved so much over the last decade that its probably harder to get a really awful one now.


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## editor (Feb 14, 2013)

Basically you need decent lens and a decent sensor, because if either part is crap, then you'll have crap pictures.

Happily, the standard of both is generally very high )in relation to the budget). In the right conditions, my cameraphone can take outstanding photos.


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## Firky (Feb 14, 2013)

elbows said:


> I had a quick look and it seems there are no end of arguments about this on the net.


 
Oh it is alright 

It's been about since I first got my digicam over ten years ago - it's how I ended up buying the camera I did... arguing


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> And even cheap lenses these days are generally pretty good.


 
All lenses have a detail limit. The nyquist frequency if you want the fancy word. The (much) lower nyquist frequency of cheap lenses means that sensors above a certain threshold will not resolve more detail no matter many megapixels the sensor has.

What's worse is that as the pixel count goes up, the low light sensitivity goes down (think of the gaps between the elements). The best combination is lens & sensor that have roughly similar nyquist frequency.


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

elbows said:


> And the reason I say its a crap analogy is because either side of this argument could attempt to use it to support their case, when what its actually saying is that there is no point having one part of the system thats excellent if its let down by another part being crap. Regardless of which part, since either can drag the other down.


 
Good sensors are cheap and getting cheaper dramatically, good glass isn't and isn't. That's a key difference.


The Canon 50mm f1.8 II first shipped twenty two years ago (!) - still going strong and not much change in price either.

My 70-200 f2.8L IS is worth *more* than I paid for it five years ago.

My 5d Mk II is worth half what I paid for it, much more recently.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 14, 2013)

paolo said:


> All lenses have a detail limit. The nyquist frequency if you want the fancy word. The (much) lower nyquist frequency of cheap lenses means that sensors above a certain threshold will not resolve more detail no matter many megapixels they have.
> 
> What's worse is that as the pixel count goes up, the low light sensitivity goes down (think of the gaps between the elements). The best combination is lens & sensor that have roughly similar nyquist frequency.


The point is that it's easy these days to make lenses which are way good enough for the teeny sensors that they're generally put on when it comes to phones and pocket cameras. It's not something you generally have to worry about, "does this camera have a good enough lens to exploit the capability of the sensor".


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## paolo (Feb 14, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The point is that it's easy these days to make lenses which are way good enough for the teeny sensors that they're generally put on when it comes to phones and pocket cameras.


 
Ah yes, agreed.


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## Kid_Eternity (Feb 14, 2013)

Somewhere I appear to have lost sight of what the lense posts have to do with the iPad 128gig...


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## editor (Mar 27, 2018)

Apple have unveiled their "most affordable" 9.7in iPad that will work with the now cheaper £89 Apple Pencil. 

The new iPad comes in silver, grey and gold and will cost £319 for the 32GB with Wi-Fi model and £449 for the 32GB Wi-Fi+Cellular. 



> Google's Chromebooks and Android tablets are said to take around 60% of the education market, with Windows devices making up around 22%, according to figures from Futuresource Consulting. In a bid to launch a counterattack, ahead of today’s Apple event, Google finally unveiled its first Chrome OS tablet, made by Acer, on Monday. It very much occupies an area that Apple has failed to capture effectively with the iPad.
> 
> Last year saw the launch of the 7th generation iPad, the 2nd generation 12.9in iPad Pro and a 10.5in Pro model but we've been waiting for an entry-level iPad to join the ranks for some time. We haven't seen an iPad mini since the iPad mini 4 in 2015, which was later discontinued in September 2016 for all but the 128GB model, and it appears it may be well and truly dead.


Apple unveils "most affordable" 9.7in iPad that will work with the now cheaper £89 Apple Pencil


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## cybershot (Mar 27, 2018)

200GB of iCloud storage as well for students and teachers, as long as the Apple ID was created by your institution. So that will be none then!


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## mwgdrwg (Mar 28, 2018)

Going to get one of the new iPads. Had a bad experience with the Acer tablet I had, and I see they're making the new chromebook tablets, so it's back to Apple.


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## elbows (Mar 28, 2018)

The Apple Pencil is really great, one of the very few things they've done in the last 5 years or so that has genuinely impressed me. So its good that there is now a cheaper ipad that can use it.

As for the latest education initiative, I dont really think Apple deserve a bigger share of that market. A combination of their high prices and walled, controlled approach makes me feel that way. One of those situations where I could get very excited and evangelical about the devices potential in various specific academic settings, but really cannot because of the nature of who owns it and who controls it and how much this costs everyone else.


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## mwgdrwg (Mar 28, 2018)

elbows said:


> The Apple Pencil is really great, one of the very few things they've done in the last 5 years or so that has genuinely impressed me. So its good that there is now a cheaper ipad that can use it.
> 
> As for the latest education initiative, I dont really think Apple deserve a bigger share of that market. A combination of their high prices and walled, controlled approach makes me feel that way. One of those situations where I could get very excited and evangelical about the devices potential in various specific academic settings, but really cannot because of the nature of who owns it and who controls it and how much this costs everyone else.



Unless you are arguing for giving every school Linux I do not understand your concerns, do you really think being tied to Microsoft licensing or Google data slurping is actually better for shools or students?


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## editor (Mar 28, 2018)

mwgdrwg said:


> Unless you are arguing for giving every school Linux I do not understand your concerns, do you really think being tied to Microsoft licensing or Google data slurping is actually better for shools or students?


I think Chromebooks are a far better choice for schools than iPads. 



> Nine years later, and Chromebooks are a smash success. Nearly three out of every five machines used in schools run the Chrome OS, according to researcher Futuresource Consulting.
> 
> In fact, Chromebooks are so successful in the education world that on Tuesday, Apple held its latest iPad unveiling at Chicago's Lane Tech College Prep High School in an effort to re-establish its position in the area.
> 
> ...


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## elbows (Mar 28, 2018)

mwgdrwg said:


> Unless you are arguing for giving every school Linux I do not understand your concerns, do you really think being tied to Microsoft licensing or Google data slurping is actually better for shools or students?



I spent a long time moaning about Microsoft in the past and I rarely miss an opportunity to have a go at google who have way too much data already. That doesnt mean I'm going to turn a blind eye to Apples terrible pricing or their control freakery. None of these corporations really provide a foundation truly fit for universal education without dodgy strings attached. But high on my own list of red lines in education are corporations with too much interest in particular forms of censorship. I've no dramatic stories of Apple doing such things in the educational space, but their instincts in this regard have long been on display with their app-store policy. Their forthcoming foray into producing a lot of original media content should provide further glimpses of Apples attitude in this realm, as their banal views on what constitutes 'safe, family-oriented content' become clear.


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## mwgdrwg (Mar 28, 2018)

elbows said:


> I spent a long time moaning about Microsoft in the past and I rarely miss an opportunity to have a go at google who have way too much data already. That doesnt mean I'm going to turn a blind eye to Apples terrible pricing or their control freakery. None of these corporations really provide a foundation truly fit for universal education without dodgy strings attached. But high on my own list of red lines in education are corporations with too much interest in particular forms of censorship. I've no dramatic stories of Apple doing such things in the educational space, but their instincts in this regard have long been on display with their app-store policy. Their forthcoming foray into producing a lot of original media content should provide further glimpses of Apples attitude in this realm, as their banal views on what constitutes 'safe, family-oriented content' become clear.



They have some way to beat Microsoft in the censorship stakes, they want to go as far as banning you for using swear words in YOUR Office 365 documents - What the @#$%&!? Microsoft bans swearing on Skype, in email, Bing and Office 365 docs


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## mwgdrwg (Mar 28, 2018)

editor said:


> I think Chromebooks are a far better choice for schools than iPads.



Why?

I only have anecdotal evidence from my own son that he hates unsing the cut back online Office and Scratch on the school's chromebooks.


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## editor (Mar 28, 2018)

mwgdrwg said:


> Why?
> 
> I only have anecdotal evidence from my own son that he hates unsing the cut back online Office and Scratch on the school's chromebooks.


Well why do you think they've become so massively popular in the States and taken an almighty chunk of what was once Apple's home market? And why do you think the platform is still growing?

If I was a teacher or tech admin at a school, I'd definitely prefer to have students on Chromebooks.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 28, 2018)

editor said:


> Well why do you think they've become so massively popular in the States and taken an almighty chunk of what was once Apple's home market? And why do you think the platform is still growing?
> 
> If I was a teacher or tech admin at a school, I'd definitely prefer to have students on Chromebooks.



Price and the fact they are pretty hard to break software wise.


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## editor (Mar 28, 2018)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Price and the fact they are pretty hard to break software wise.


Many teachers find a proper keyboard handy too.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 28, 2018)

editor said:


> Many teachers find a proper keyboard handy too.



Well yes. I've always thought tablets in school slightly bizarre for that reason. Mind you voice is getting a lot better, so it wouldn't surprise me if decent keyboard skills are far less relevant in ten years time.


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## editor (Mar 28, 2018)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Well yes. I've always thought tablets in school slightly bizarre for that reason. Mind you voice is getting a lot better, so it wouldn't surprise me if decent keyboard skills are far less relevant in ten years time.


Loads of kids are learning programming and a real keyboard definitely helps for that!


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## mwgdrwg (Mar 28, 2018)

editor said:


> Well why do you think they've become so massively popular in the States and taken an almighty chunk of what was once Apple's home market? And why do you think the platform is still growing?
> 
> If I was a teacher or tech admin at a school, I'd definitely prefer to have students on Chromebooks.



I don't know, that's why I'm asking 

I'm guessing keyboard and price and the appearance of getting a fylly featured laptop at low cost. 

I've never used one so I was hoping youd shed some light on something I'm missing about them.


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## editor (Mar 28, 2018)

mwgdrwg said:


> I don't know, that's why I'm asking
> 
> I'm guessing keyboard and price and the appearance of getting a fylly featured laptop at low cost.
> 
> I've never used one so I was hoping youd shed some light on something I'm missing about them.


Some insights here: 



> Chromebooks are ideally suited for multi-user environments due to the fact that the storage and account settings are cloud-based rather than device based. Each period a student signs into a Chromebook (regardless of the device in the building they sign on to), they are greeted with their content, their Google Drive, their Gmail account, their Google Classrooms courses, and their creations.
> 
> Google for Education provides unlimited storage for the students in our school to utilize. This means students can archive and organize their work and have access to it days, even years later if they wish. Knowledge is an additive process, Having Chromebooks that students can use to create living educational portfolios that are secure and easily accessible is a huge plus!
> 
> ...


Why I’m Shifting My Classroom from iPads to Chromebooks


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## editor (Mar 29, 2018)

From MacWorld. 



> *Chromebooks come with ports*
> I’m glad to see that the Apple Pencil has at last come to a regular iPad, but the fact remains that it’s no true substitute for a mouse. With Chromebooks, students can easily attach low-cost mice through USB ports, allowing them to edit and manipulate text in essays and reports far more quickly than they can with Apple Pencils. As a writer who often writes on an iPad Pro, I’m all too aware of how this simple limitation slows down my work speed.
> 
> But ports are good for other things as well. Students can easily plug an external display into their Chromebook for a presentation, or they can easily connect to external hard drives for downloading or uploading massive files. The iPad? You’re stuck with the cloud and the awkwardness of mailing big files to more capable devices.
> ...





> For longer assignments such as reports and essays that require longer stretches of typing, students and teachers alike are going to want physical keyboards. Even I, a digital keyboard advocate, grow tired of using them when I’m typing for more than 200 words. This may not matter as much for students in earlier grades (who’ll likely benefit from the iPad’s touchscreen emphasis more), but I could see it become a problem the closer students get to high school.
> 
> And remember, Chromebooks come with a keyboard already cozying up to the display. Shockingly, the new iPad doesn’t even come with the Smart Connector that Apple uses for connections to its Smart Keyboard in other iPad models. Instead, Apple nudges students and schools to pick up Logitech’s Rugged Combo 2 case, which looks super sturdy but which costs another $100. (It also comes with its own Smart Connector of sorts to make up for Apple’s omission.) Once you figure in the Apple Pencil, congratulations: You’re now looking at a $500 setup.
> 
> Sorry, Apple, you didn’t think this one through.




Apple's new iPads still can't best Chromebooks in the classroom


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## 2hats (Mar 29, 2018)

I got to play with a friend's reMarkable the other day. Like a higher resolution Kindle Paperwhite you can scribble on. Impressive device for capturing ideas, taking notes. Does rather feel like writing on paper. Apparently has a battery lifetime of a few days in regular use. Might be tempted by the next generation if they can deliver it at the right price (pretty expensive right now). Something like that I could see being used as an electronic notebook in education.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 29, 2018)

2hats said:


> I got to play with a friend's reMarkable the other day. Like a higher resolution Kindle Paperwhite you can scribble on. Impressive device for capturing ideas, taking notes. Does rather feel like writing on paper. Apparently has a battery lifetime of a few days in regular use. Might be tempted by the next generation if they can deliver it at the right price (pretty expensive right now). Something like that I could see being used as an electronic notebook in education.



Or they could just use paper.


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## paolo (Mar 29, 2018)

I’ve had an iPad from nearly day one, still using it every day.

But for any decent amount of typing, a proper keyboard is a must. Given the price of Chromebooks, and having a keyboard, I’m not surprised they’re killing it in education. The OS functional limitations vs a ‘full’ laptop are probably even beneficial in that environment, rather than a compromise.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 29, 2018)

It’s not like Google are selling laptops at hugely under the market rate to schools, and “giving away” web services, because they love education or something. But this is neoliberalism isn’t it? Underfund the schools and kill their IT departments so if they want computers at all they have to get the spy ones and let Google at kids early. Oh, and the non-Google free resources they’re using are probably even worse.


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## editor (Mar 29, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It’s not like Google are selling laptops at hugely under the market rate to schools, and “giving away” web services, because they love education or something. But this is neoliberalism isn’t it? Underfund the schools and kill their IT departments so if they want computers at all they have to get the spy ones and let Google at kids early.


Not sure forcing them into the over-priced and less productive Apple walled garden is any better, to be honest. Not even sure what info Google get out of the Chromebook education market, although given the dominance of Google services, it could be argued that most kids will end up on it anyway.

Privacy & Security | Google for Education


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 29, 2018)

editor said:


> Not sure forcing them into the over-priced and less productive Apple walled garden is any better, to be honest. Not even sure what info Google get out of the Chromebook education market, although given the dominance of Google services, it could be argued that most kids will end up on it anyway.


Apple have priced themselves out of the market tbh and aren’t even an alternative any more for most places, except maybe a few for special purposes - you can bet that schools that can afford to look at iPads as general purpose machines won’t have to rely on free Google resources either. They’ll be evaluating them against more traditional options like laptops managed by their IT department.

Google gets masses of info from tracking people young, as do lots of the ed tech site providers, plus they can get people locked into Google services or just generally boost them as standards - the latter being something that Microsoft used to spend millions promoting and lobbying for across the world, until they dropped the ball. Google clearly think it’s worth their while; they don’t make a profit from just the sale of chromebooks, it’s the use of them that’s valuable. I’m pretty sure there is a thread specifically about them somewhere but not sure where it is.


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## editor (Mar 29, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Google clearly think it’s worth their while; they don’t make a profit from just the sale of chromebooks, it’s the use of them that’s valuable.


But Google don't make the Chromebooks that get sold in schools.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 29, 2018)

editor said:


> But Google don't make the Chromebooks that get sold in schools.


They certainly don’t make a profit from ones they don’t make. Yet they promote and advertise them for education constantly, and back them up with web services.


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## editor (Mar 29, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They certainly don’t make a profit from ones they don’t make. Yet they promote and advertise them for education constantly, and back them up with web services.


Google make a _microscopi_c amount of the Chromebooks that are available and I've seen no evidence that they're subsidising other manufacturers to make them. The fact that they're so cheap just reflects how overpriced Apple stuff is.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 29, 2018)

editor said:


> Google make a _microscopi_c amount of the Chromebooks that are available and I've seen no evidence that they're subsidising other manufacturers to make them. The fact that they're so cheap just reflects how overpriced Apple stuff is.


The fact that they don’t make money from selling chromebooks to schools is my whole point. They still spend huge amounts of money promoting and supporting them regardless of who makes the actual hardware. They’re not doing this because they’re lovely any more than MS offers educational rates on Office because they want to support education.


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## editor (Mar 29, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The fact that they don’t make money from selling chromebooks to schools is my whole point. They still spend huge amounts of money promoting and supporting them regardless of who makes the actual hardware. They’re not doing this because they’re lovely any more than MS offers educational rates on Office because they want to support education.


I don't think any of the hardware/software companies are lovely and they're all only after one thing - money and your loyalty -  but Chromebooks sure look a shitload better than iPads for education.


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## 2hats (Mar 30, 2018)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Or they could just use paper.


Depends on whether they want to consume paper, store it and lug it around. Other than final examinations, most coursework I'm involved in is increasingly electronic submission. If I personally have any paper based notes/information I almost always end up scanning it and only keeping the electronic version.


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## paolo (Mar 30, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Google gets masses of info from tracking people young, as do lots of the ed tech site providers, plus they can get people locked into Google services or just generally boost them as standards - the latter being something that Microsoft used to spend millions promoting and lobbying for across the world, until they dropped the ball. Google clearly think it’s worth their while; they don’t make a profit from just the sale of chromebooks, it’s the use of them that’s valuable. I’m pretty sure there is a thread specifically about them somewhere but not sure where it is.



There's definitely this.

It's not that it alone makes Apple's products better for education (no keyboard, again)... it's more that it's a slippery slope when Google is the provider. Track, rinse, repeat.

Maybe I'm being too cynical? Has Google said they won't collect data from Chromebook users or students?

(Starting a new thread on this. It's important)


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