# Bye Bye Scotland



## lewislewis (Nov 29, 2006)

Sorry to dredge up this old beast, but it looks like in 2007 Scotland may well vote in the SNP as the leaders of a coalition, which in turn might hold a referendum on Scotland becoming the world's newest nation.
The current newest nation is Montenegro.

If Scotland becomes independent before 2010, what are the chances of Wales following suit?

What would the future Wales be like? Wales votes in 2007 too, maybe Plaid will get in and lead a coalition. Things could get a bit more exciting in Wales than we're currently used to. Our national government is run as a glorified local council by the idiots in charge. Nothing seems to happen, no big decisions are made, we don't really see the new policies being brought to the people. 
I hope Wales changes in the next few years.


----------



## Brockway (Nov 29, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Sorry to dredge up this old beast, but it looks like in 2007 Scotland may well vote in the SNP as the leaders of a coalition, which in turn might hold a referendum on Scotland becoming the world's newest nation.
> The current newest nation is Montenegro.
> 
> If Scotland becomes independent before 2010, what are the chances of Wales following suit?
> ...



I can't see Wales voting for independence - it was hard enough getting people to vote for an Assembly. I think there is more chance of Wales going back to the way we were before: Tories get in (at some point), referendum on the continuation of Assembly, people vote against it. And there are so many English people moving here we are rapidly losing our national identity anyway. Shame, because I'd quite like to live in a small, rainy, independent, Welsh-speaking, left-wing country.


----------



## niclas (Nov 29, 2006)

So would I... but if the Scots do get independence who the hell will want to stick in a YooKay state with the English and the 6 Counties (and 3 of those counties will probably decide to be Loyal to Glasgow Rangers rather than Queenie)?

And the English, bless 'em, want their own Parliament.  
Shall we leave before we're pushed out the door?


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Nov 30, 2006)

you patronising fuckers.




To be fair - If plaid get a whif of independence it will be their worse nightmare.

They'd have to campain in south wales, on a nationalist ticket proper, not the soft-pseudo-socialist ticket they solicit votes on at present. I would say they'd get slaughtered. Not to say that I'm not pro England, Scotland and Wales doing what they like  - I think they should.

NB - I'm also lashed up


----------



## ska invita (Nov 30, 2006)

cmon scots and welsh - go indie and leave us in the tory scum hands we brits deserve - sink new labour once and for all and force the english voters to wake up to the tory scum they are so betrothen too.


----------



## bendeus (Nov 30, 2006)

I think it would be difficult to call the effects a Scottish move towards independence would have, not only on Welsh voters but also on the English. 

It could certainly galvanise those whose sense of Welshness is limited to wearing a plastic leek on St. David's day and watching the rugby into a more overtly political statement of identity. Equally, if Scotland splits off could it not lead to the English electorate beginning to consider making a clean break from all the colonies. It certainly appears that, on the evidence of that poll commisioned by the Torygraph last week, a large proportion of English voters want rid of the Jocks. Why should the Welsh be any different?

Interesting times. I would sure feel sorry for those socialists left in rump England, though. The thousand year, blue rinse Reich beckons


----------



## rhys gethin (Nov 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> I can't see Wales voting for independence - it was hard enough getting people to vote for an Assembly. I think there is more chance of Wales going back to the way we were before: Tories get in (at some point), referendum on the continuation of Assembly, people vote against it. And there are so many English people moving here we are rapidly losing our national identity anyway. Shame, because I'd quite like to live in a small, rainy, independent, Welsh-speaking, left-wing country.



I've been hearing this sort of stuff all my life.   It is a sort of mental cancer, this self-down-putting eternal pessimism.   Why not cheer up and get something DONE for what you say you would like (tho' I don't think anyone can promise 'rainy' forever, way things are going).


----------



## geminisnake (Nov 30, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Sorry to dredge up this old beast, but it looks like in 2007 Scotland may well vote in the SNP as the leaders of a coalition, which in turn might hold a referendum on Scotland becoming the world's newest nation.



  Really?? Don't pay much attention to politics tbh but the idea of Alec and that slimy toad Sturgeon being in charge of where I live fills me with horror, and tbh I don't think SNP has much support in the south of the country where most of the populace live. I wouldn't vote for SNP and I know very few who would.

Central belt has nearly always been red(not that Labour are red anymore)

And BTW Scotland IS a nation


----------



## ICB (Nov 30, 2006)

Independence for Wales may be a nice idea in principle but I think there's a pretty large pair of rose coloured specs on here.

In practice the WAG is hopeless and Wales has started lagging behind England and Scotland as a consequence.  Granted there are a few notable exceptions e.g. dropping SATs before English schools did but on things like e-gov they're way behind the curve.  We're now going through the third attempt to get AMs to understand what e-gov is all about and we still haven't seen the funding that's needed to start making a difference to LG efficiency and local democracy.  Trying to deal with the infighting and bickering going on down in Cardiff is a nightmare and for all the talk about "joined up government" and "making the connections" it's still a world of the "my portfolio's bigger than yours" mentality.

Given all this and the fact that Welsh local govt. politicians have a history of being more insular, self-serving and blue rinse than England's ever have I'd say a fully independent parliament would most likely be considerably worse in its consequences regardless of what one feels about the underlying principles involved.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 30, 2006)

geminisnake said:
			
		

> Really?? Don't pay much attention to politics tbh but the idea of Alec and that slimy toad Sturgeon being in charge of where I live fills me with horror, and tbh I don't think SNP has much support in the south of the country where most of the populace live. I wouldn't vote for SNP and I know very few who would.
> 
> Central belt has nearly always been red(not that Labour are red anymore)
> 
> And BTW Scotland IS a nation



Sorry yeah you're right, I should've said nation-state.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 30, 2006)

ICB said:
			
		

> Independence for Wales may be a nice idea in principle but I think there's a pretty large pair of rose coloured specs on here.
> 
> In practice the WAG is hopeless and Wales has started lagging behind England and Scotland as a consequence.  Granted there are a few notable exceptions e.g. dropping SATs before English schools did but on things like e-gov they're way behind the curve.  We're now going through the third attempt to get AMs to understand what e-gov is all about and we still haven't seen the funding that's needed to start making a difference to LG efficiency and local democracy.  Trying to deal with the infighting and bickering going on down in Cardiff is a nightmare and for all the talk about "joined up government" and "making the connections" it's still a world of the "my portfolio's bigger than yours" mentality.
> 
> Given all this and the fact that Welsh local govt. politicians have a history of being more insular, self-serving and blue rinse than England's ever have I'd say a fully independent parliament would most likely be considerably worse in its consequences regardless of what one feels about the underlying principles involved.



Why do you presume the people in charge of the WAG would be the ones running a self-governed Wales?

I think Wales needs to elect different people, not the current Assembly Government.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> I can't see Wales voting for independence - it was hard enough getting people to vote for an Assembly. I think there is more chance of Wales going back to the way we were before: Tories get in (at some point), referendum on the continuation of Assembly, people vote against it. And there are so many English people moving here we are rapidly losing our national identity anyway. Shame, because I'd quite like to live in a small, rainy, independent, Welsh-speaking, left-wing country.



I meant the effects of Scottish independence, on Wales. Despite English migration I don't think we are losing our national identity at all, we just need a political cause to raise the national consciousness.
In fact more than ever, it seems people in England are very much aware Wales is in fact Wales and not part of England (my friends anyway).

I'm not sure a future Wales would be entirely Welsh-speaking as alot of people don't want to speak it, which is fine. Ireland isn't fully Irish-speaking.


----------



## llantwit (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah Brockway - don't start on my imaginary kids again, man! I'm warning you.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Nov 30, 2006)

Why assume that Wales would be a left wing country after independence? - 

here's the new boss . . .
. . . same as the old boss!


----------



## munkeeunit (Nov 30, 2006)

Scotland should have gone independent 20yrs ago, while the oil bonanza could still have being used to reinvigorate the economy, and replace English subsidies. Now there's just the oil dregs left, and the European Union budget is straining to subsidize or the East European econonmies, and their restructuring.

Not sure where the money would come from to fill that gap.

Personally, speaking as an Englishman, I'd have the decency to retain the subsidies for another 20yrs after independence, to make up for all that Scottish oil we nicked, but most English are just penny pinchers blind to their exploitative recent (and distant) histories.


----------



## Karac (Nov 30, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Why assume that Wales would be a left wing country after independence? -
> 
> here's the new boss . . .
> . . . same as the old boss!


Possibly but for a start if Scotland and Wales were to go independent it would put a tremendous dent in the whole yookay imperialist mindset of various tory and labour leaders who think "britain" is still a world player and can invade countries (as a bit part player to the USA) at will.
Would an independent England feel as free?-i doubt it


----------



## geminisnake (Nov 30, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Now there's just the oil dregs left,



Can't produce a link but afaik there is more oil in the recently developed Atlantic fields(west of Orkney) than there was in the whole of the North Sea fields.

Dregs?? I don't think so munkee, there's oil in that there water  

Plus extraction methods have vastly improved and apparently they can now get more out of what were thought to be extinguished fields.


----------



## niclas (Nov 30, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Why assume that Wales would be a left wing country after independence? -
> 
> here's the new boss . . .
> . . . same as the old boss!



Because Wales is a far more working-class country than England and the main opposition to Labour is a left-wing party not a right-wing party as in England. 

Even Welsh Labour is more left-wing than New Labour. But only just. Tonight Rhodri Morgan was making a desperate attempt to distance himself from New Labour in advance of the wipe out Labour's facing in May 07. He knows the voters don't like the Pink Tories and what limited reforms he's made have been to the left of Blair.

07 is shaping up to be a potentially historic election, coming on the back of a welcome rediscovery of direct action from the LNG pipeline via Hafod to the Welsh Faslane campaigners.


----------



## munkeeunit (Dec 1, 2006)

geminisnake said:
			
		

> Can't produce a link but afaik there is more oil in the recently developed Atlantic fields(west of Orkney) than there was in the whole of the North Sea fields.
> 
> Dregs?? I don't think so munkee, there's oil in that there water
> 
> Plus extraction methods have vastly improved and apparently they can now get more out of what were thought to be extinguished fields.



Well, you'd better keep your fingers crossed. The overwhelming majority of exciting new finds, turn out to be non-viable, in terms of the natural pressure levels of the field. Oil is fundemantally extracted by the pressure it is naturally under, and only around 30-40% of the oil is ever recovered from any oil field before the pressure soon drops, and the oil stops coming out.

Yes, extraction methods have vastly improved, but at great economic cost. In the heady days of the Texan oil bonanza, pressure levels of the best fields were so high that you'd get 20 units of energy out, for every unit of energy it took to get the stuff out. Even those exciting new finds, which do turn out to  be energy viable, have such low pressure that you're lucky if you get 2 units of energy for every unit of energy you have to expend getting the stuff out.

Even if oil hit $500 dollars a barrel, and almost all of theses field became economically viable in terms of economic cost, they would still not be viable in terms of how much energy you get out, after spending energy getting it out in the first place. What would be the point of oil fields where it uses more energy to get the oil out, than the amount of energy in the oil you can actually extract?

Those kinds of fields are only viable for use in the military, which simply has to have oil to run it's great lumbering machines and infrastructure, inorder to continue waging wars to get hold of those other oil fields which are still viable both in terms of economic and energy costs. Just like all those wonderful oil fields in Iraq.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Dec 1, 2006)

our economy would be even more of a basket case than it is already.


----------



## munkeeunit (Dec 1, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Even those exciting new finds, which do turn out to  be energy viable, have such low pressure that you're lucky if you get 2 units of energy for every unit of energy you have to expend getting the stuff out.



This, of course, is the great irony of the oil sector. The only way they'll get that remaining oil out, is with a massive investment in alternative energy, so as to be sure of not using more oil getting the oil out than they can get out the ground.


----------



## Belushi (Dec 1, 2006)

geminisnake said:
			
		

> Can't produce a link but afaik there is more oil in the recently developed Atlantic fields(west of Orkney) than there was in the whole of the North Sea fields.



If I was an Orcadian I'd be thinking to myself 'why do we want to share our Orkney oil wih those mainlanders, independence for Orkney!'


----------



## Belushi (Dec 1, 2006)

Independence within Europe for Scotland and Wales, the reunification of Ireland; and then England can join the USA as the 51st State. Sorted.


----------



## munkeeunit (Dec 1, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> and then England can join the USA as the 51st State. Sorted.



England isn't a state, it's just Airstrip1 (aka Fairford) as Orwell once accurately said. 
We are an unsinkable aircraft carrier to the U.S, and that's about it.


----------



## geminisnake (Dec 1, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Independence within Europe for Scotland and Wales, the reunification of Ireland; and then England can join the USA as the 51st State. Sorted.



I'd agree with that but I have to ask was Ireland ever unified?? I've read quite a bit of history and iirc Ireland was always seperate counties(going back over 1000 yrs here) Ulster and Donegal are the only two names I can remember for definite 
Hubby is the facts rememberer.


----------



## Brockway (Dec 1, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Independence within Europe for Scotland and Wales, the reunification of Ireland; and then England can join the USA as the 51st State. Sorted.



53rd state.


----------



## Brockway (Dec 1, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> I've been hearing this sort of stuff all my life.   It is a sort of mental cancer, this self-down-putting eternal pessimism.   Why not cheer up and get something DONE for what you say you would like (tho' I don't think anyone can promise 'rainy' forever, way things are going).



Ok. I'll vote for independence when the referendum comes along.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 2, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Ok. I'll vote for independence when the referendum comes along.



Da iawn.   Me too.


----------



## Karac (Dec 3, 2006)

There will be no referendum
"Northern" Irelands already gone.
Scotlands going.
Its just us and the saes.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 3, 2006)

Complete re-evaluation of the UK is needed. My part is..."forget it".


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Dec 4, 2006)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Independence within Europe for Scotland and Wales, the reunification of Ireland; and then England can join the USA as the 51st State. Sorted.



So Rhodri Morgan as Prime Minister?  

Why assume that an independent Wales would not participate in the war on terror - albeit on a smaller scale?  Across the water, "neutral" Ireland allows Shannon Airport to be used to send planes to bomb Iraqis and Afghanis.  Given that none of the 4 main parties in Wales would stand up to the pressures of the World system to conform to neo-liberalism (social democratic governments to the left of Welsh Labour and Plaid have buckled) it is more than likely that their would be some participation of an independent Wales in imperialism.  Just as the most left wing British government the 1945 Labour Party refused to grant independence to a single African colony, used troops to break strikes etc. so either a New Labour or Plaid government in an independent Wales wouldn't stand up to the capitalist power structure. 

Having said that, seeing Brown, Blair, John Reid et al denouncing independence is enough to make anyone warm to nationalism.

It's up to the majority of Welsh people to democratically decide what constitutional arrangements they prefer, but personally - I think at best - independence would bring extremely minor improvements to the lifes of most people.  Independence would also be slightly more democratic than being part of the British state, but given that in all capitalist states real power lies with powerful corporate interests and elites - something that would hold true in either scenario, it would be a very minor improvement:

Here's the new boss . . .
. . .  Same as the old boss!


----------



## GarfieldLeChat (Dec 4, 2006)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> Scotland should have gone independent 20yrs ago, while the oil bonanza could still have being used to reinvigorate the economy, and replace English subsidies. Now there's just the oil dregs left, and the European Union budget is straining to subsidize or the East European econonmies, and their restructuring.
> 
> Not sure where the money would come from to fill that gap.
> 
> Personally, speaking as an Englishman, I'd have the decency to retain the subsidies for another 20yrs after independence, to make up for all that Scottish oil we nicked, but most English are just penny pinchers blind to their exploitative recent (and distant) histories.



theoretically the scottish could switch to the euro and claim some sort of european subsidy that way ...


----------



## niclas (Dec 4, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> So Rhodri Morgan as Prime Minister?
> 
> Why assume that an independent Wales would not participate in the war on terror - albeit on a smaller scale?  Across the water, "neutral" Ireland allows Shannon Airport to be used to send planes to bomb Iraqis and Afghanis.  Given that none of the 4 main parties in Wales would stand up to the pressures of the World system to conform to neo-liberalism (social democratic governments to the left of Welsh Labour and Plaid have buckled) it is more than likely that their would be some participation of an independent Wales in imperialism.  Just as the most left wing British government the 1945 Labour Party refused to grant independence to a single African colony, used troops to break strikes etc. so either a New Labour or Plaid government in an independent Wales wouldn't stand up to the capitalist power structure.



It's not "neutral Ireland" that allows US warplanes to use Shannon, it's a right-wing free-market government. 

Even so, that's an improvement on sending troops (as the UK govt does) as part of some US-UK crusade in the Middle East. 

So there's one marked improvement for a start.

Counterposing Labour's failures in 45-51 to what a future independent (socialist) Wales might do isn't really getting us anywhere.

As for Rhodri being prime minister, well he's retiring in 2009. I honestly don't think we'll have the revolution sorted by then...


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 4, 2006)

I think if we got the current people in Plaid into power, there wouldn't be any question of supporting imperialism. Wales is a victim of imperialism.

Of course, an independent Wales might elect a complete bunch of retards, but at least they'll be more accessible and accountable.


----------



## niclas (Dec 5, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Of course, an independent Wales might elect a complete bunch of retards, but at least they'll be more accessible and accountable.



"They may be retards but at least they're our retards"  

Breaking free of the empire will hopefully allow us to introduce some accountability, as in the right to recall, to our elected delegates in the People's Assembly.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Breaking free of the empire will hopefully allow us to introduce some accountability, as in the right to recall, to our elected delegates in the People's Assembly.



I'm unable to make up my mind. Are you nashies thick as shit or just incredibly naive? Or both?

Any genuinely progressive independent state in Wales would be crushed within weeks byy imperialism. And the joke is they really wouldn't need to do much other than institute sanctions against Wales.

Either an independent Wales seeks to reach out to other countries and form a federal body with them, merging their economies and defence at very least, or you die. Fact is that a fully independent state and society cannot be achieved in the imperialist epoch.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I'm unable to make up my mind. Are you nashies thick as shit or just incredibly naive? Or both?
> 
> Any genuinely progressive independent state in Wales would be crushed within weeks byy imperialism. And the joke is they really wouldn't need to do much other than institute sanctions against Wales.
> 
> Either an independent Wales seeks to reach out to other countries and form a federal body with them, merging their economies and defence at very least, or you die. Fact is that a fully independent state and society cannot be achieved in the imperialist epoch.



Too either-or-y.   Things can shift by stages, as in South America.   Naive to suppose Cymru is suddenly going to become the Socialist Republic of Heaven, but equally naive to think _nothing_ can be done at all.   That is the common currency of discussion amongst those who've given up, here and elsewhere.   Let's say it again:  Marx helped organise the Soho waiters.   Any genuinely revolutionary waiters' union in Soho would have been crushed within days!   But Marx helped organize the Soho waiters anyway.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> Too either-or-y.   Things can shift by stages, as in South America.   Naive to suppose Cymru is suddenly going to become the Socialist Republic of Heaven, but equally naive to think _nothing_ can be done at all.   That is the common currency of discussion amongst those who've given up, here and elsewhere.   Let's say it again:  Marx helped organise the Soho waiters.   Any genuinely revolutionary waiters' union in Soho would have been crushed within days!   But Marx helped organize the Soho waiters anyway.



What utter idiocy. Although I do give you full marks for the chutzpah of using Marx the international revolutionary to justify your national reformist schema.

The truth is that if a left wing government were to take power in a newly independent Welsh state, something I regard as undesirebale from a communist point of view, that government would have aburning need to deliver real reforms that improved the standard of living for workers in this country. Which cannot be done by small incremental steps but almost by definition requires a toal break with neo-liberalism. In which case imperialism will crush you.

On the other hand what could happen if the electorate of this country were follish ebnough to vote for seperation from our fellow workers in the rest of Britain is that a left talking Plaid Cymru government would adminster the country for the benfit of the international bourgoisie. Just as left talking populists do in certain Latin American countries today. Although they are at least attempting to renegotate the terms of their relations to imperialism which in the case of the currently most successful, Venezuala, is based on the possession of oil reserves. A precondition which the economy of this country cannot replicate.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> What utter idiocy. Although I do give you full marks for the chutzpah of using Marx the international revolutionary to justify your national reformist schema.
> 
> The truth is that if a left wing government were to take power in a newly independent Welsh state, something I regard as undesirebale from a communist point of view, that government would have aburning need to deliver real reforms that improved the standard of living for workers in this country. Which cannot be done by small incremental steps but almost by definition requires a toal break with neo-liberalism. In which case imperialism will crush you.
> 
> On the other hand what could happen if the electorate of this country were follish ebnough to vote for seperation from our fellow workers in the rest of Britain is that a left talking Plaid Cymru government would adminster the country for the benfit of the international bourgoisie. Just as left talking populists do in certain Latin American countries today. Although they are at least attempting to renegotate the terms of their relations to imperialism which in the case of the currently most successful, Venezuala, is based on the possession of oil reserves. A precondition which the economy of this country cannot replicate.



And so, Brilliance, we settle under Bliar and his successors and wait for somebody _else_ to make the world revolution for us, do we?   Because that _is_ your choice, let's face it.   You are just making talk.    A real revolutionary puts forward practical alternatives to a policy, whereas all you do is find reasons for NOT doing things, like any other reactionary yes-man.   To learn, you DO things, and make mistakes.   It is extremely easy to be  a totally inactive purist, I think:   met lots of 'em in my time, never saw 'em do anything useful ever, though they did tend, fair play, to GET ON.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> And so, Brilliance, we settle under Bliar and his successors and wait for somebody _else_ to make the world revolution for us, do we?   Because that _is_ your choice, let's face it.   You are just making talk.    A real revolutionary puts forward practical alternatives to a policy, whereas all you do is find reasons for NOT doing things, like any other reactionary yes-man.   To learn, you DO things, and make mistakes.   It is extremely easy to be  a totally inactive purist, I think:   met lots of 'em in my time, never saw 'em do anything useful ever, though they did tend, fair play, to GET ON.



Yes Rhys my post was 'just talk' this is a discussion list you clown that's the point of being here.

There are two points that come from your rather peurile reply.

!/ You seem unable to construct an argument against the scenario I outlined.

2/ You use the word revolutionary a lot but if examined you are in favour of a reformist road, not to socialism, but to a national state.

In the meantime I would suggest that the road Marx argued for that, that of organising workers on the basis of a revolutionary struggle againt international capital, retains all its validty today.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Yes Rhys my post was 'just talk' this is a discussion list you clown that's the point of being here.
> 
> There are two points that come from your rather peurile reply.
> 
> ...



No, I'm not for reformism but for _action_, because people learn by that.   The 1910 action in Ton-y-pandy was clearly revolutionary, but it grew out of things that were happening in chapels as well as things that were happening in pits and in Parliament.   You seem to be in favour of _in_action, and your 'scenario' is melodramatic, since you ask.   Any group that opposes the capitalist state is important, as we see if we examine the history of the Spanish Republic.   As Tony Cliff used to tell us, the one group the capitalists _must_ take into account was the IRA.

Your last paragraph is fine.   What are you currently doing to bring it about?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> No, I'm not for reformism but for _action_, because people learn by that.   The 1910 action in Ton-y-pandy was clearly revolutionary, but it grew out of things that were happening in chapels as well as things that were happening in pits and in Parliament.   You seem to be in favour of _in_action, and your 'scenario' is melodramatic, since you ask.   Any group that opposes the capitalist state is important, as we see if we examine the history of the Spanish Republic.   As Tony Cliff used to tell us, the one group the capitalists _must_ take into account was the IRA.
> 
> Your last paragraph is fine.   What are you currently doing to bring it about?



You are for 'action'. So too are the fascists. But wehat kind of action and with what purpose?

The claim that my scenario is melodramatic does not address the problems I raised. the fact is that either such a scenario would come about, which i believe more or less impossible, or that an independent Welsh state will play the capitalist game of exploiting the workers. 

Thus far all you have done is talk of is an independent Welsh state that you quite clearly do not envisage breaking with capital in any way. In other words your aim is a bourgeois Wales that will have to compete in a globalised world economy. That is to say your program if achieved will not in any way provide substantial benefits for workers in Wales.

As for your comment about the Spainish republic it is too opaque to convey any meaning to me. And Cliff came out with more than a little nonsense over his many years. But if his remark, for which I would like to see a citation, has any meaning it is that the only way to command attention is from a position of strength.

Answer your own question first and then I may play your silly game.


----------



## Brockway (Dec 5, 2006)

You always crack me up Nep.  

Don't suppose you know anything about the White Panthers in Cardiff circa 1972 do you?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> You always crack me up Nep.
> 
> Don't suppose you know anything about the White Panthers in Cardiff circa 1972 do you?



And your inability to construct a coherent argument always amuses me dear boy.

And the answer is no. I do know of the original WPP which became the Rainbow Peoples Party and the later unconnected WPP that was based in the Bay Area in the 1980's.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> You are for 'action'. So too are the fascists. But wehat kind of action and with what purpose?
> 
> The claim that my scenario is melodramatic does not address the problems I raised. the fact is that either such a scenario would come about, which i believe more or less impossible, or that an independent Welsh state will play the capitalist game of exploiting the workers.
> 
> ...




All sorts of people are in favour of action - except you, it seems.   That is a silly verbal quibble you're at there.   It depends whether the action weakens capitalism, obviously.

Cymru as a State within capitalism will undoubtedly exploit workers - but considerably less confidently than the UK you seem to favour.

The push for autonomy in Catalunya and Euskadi had powerful effects in weakening the pro-capitalist regime in Spain and in keeping the Republic going.

I have said nothing whatever about 'an independent _Welsh_ state' in this discussion.   'Welsh', for one thing, is not a word I ever use by choice.

Cliff was pointing out that, however foolish the policy of the IRA, the authorities _had_ to take account of it.   He said it to me, since you ask.   If you don't believe me I shall doubtless scream in rage and grief all night!

I have done quite a bit in my time, and continue to do so, but my intention was not to have a boasting-competition but to push you into thinking about the _use_ to anyone of your abusive do-nothingism.   Do you think the Class is entering a revolutionary phase just now perhaps?   Stop being silly and get to work.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> All sorts of people are in favour of action - except you, it seems.   That is a silly verbal quibble you're at there.   It depends whether the action weakens capitalism, obviously.
> 
> Cymru as a State within capitalism will undoubtedly exploit workers - but considerably less confidently than the UK you seem to favour.
> 
> ...



It seems odd that you wish to change the content of this thread to my political activities past, present and future. It also seems odd that you assume that I'm not in favour of action without any actual evidence for such an idiotic assertion.

As for your assertion that an independent Wales will exploit workers that to is idotic. For is it not the case that, except when functioning as a collective capitalist, that the state does not exploit workers as such but rather functions as a support sytem for the capitalists who actually exploit the working classes. In any case it would seem that you do not grasp thepossibility that an independent Wales would be forced to increase the rate of exploitation the better to compete in world markets.

With regard to autonomy of Euskadi and Catalunya it is doubtful that it was beneficial to the continuation of the bourgeois republic. Indeed it could be argued that the granting of autonomy exacerbated the political crisis within the Spainish state although I have no firm opinion on that question. What is for certain is that the failure of the Republican regime to grant self determination to Spainish Morrocco, from which many of Francos troops were drawn, contributed to the defeat of the Republic.

Your choice not to use the words Wales or Welsh is your choice which I respect. but by the same token you must resect the choice of Anglophone Welsh people to use the terms we are most comfortable with. I any case we mean the same thing whichever name one uses for this small country.

As for Cliff I too heard hm say something very similar. But to the best of my kowledge of his writings, which is extensive, I've not found anything similar in print.

As for your moronic final comments produce proof that i advocate 'doing nothing' or shuit the fuck up. Although i do advocate doing nothing inn pursuit of an independent Wales/Cymru as such an aim is inimical to the interests of the working classes in this country. A country which I'm planning on leaving next year as it happens.


----------



## Brockway (Dec 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> A country which I'm planning on leaving next year as it happens.



Where you off? Anywhere nice?


----------



## niclas (Dec 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I'm unable to make up my mind. Are you nashies thick as shit or just incredibly naive? Or both?
> 
> Any genuinely progressive independent state in Wales would be crushed within weeks byy imperialism. And the joke is they really wouldn't need to do much other than institute sanctions against Wales.
> 
> Either an independent Wales seeks to reach out to other countries and form a federal body with them, merging their economies and defence at very least, or you die. Fact is that a fully independent state and society cannot be achieved in the imperialist epoch.



I agree that Wales will only achieve a socialist republic within more favourable international conditions. There's no contradiction between wanting to destroy the British State, a bulwark of imperialism and reaction, and wanting to see an independent socialist Wales making links with the wider world. 

Latin America has gone from a continent of fascist dictators to one of left-leaning (some better than others) democratic regimes in a generation. At their best, these new regimes offer a new challenge to global capitalism and Chavez on his re-election has talked repeatedly of a distinctively Venezuelan socialism. 

Some on this list would condemn him as a national socialist, reformist, etc but his actions have shown him to be an innovative internationalist determined to build a different world order. 

It won't be without its faults (and the Venezuelan situation is unusual because of the oil wealth) but it's already changing the world.

I hope we can contribute to something similar here in Europe, where we challenge global capitalism with a distinctive grassroots socialism that is meaningful to people here rather than the authoritarian offerings from high that have given the left such a bad name.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Where you off? Anywhere nice?



As near as I can get to my girlfriends. And she is very nice indeed. For a reactionary that is.

Dunno when i'll be moving anyhow, money is a big problem, but I'm not in a position to do anything in Wales as i'm spending most weekends away.


----------



## Brockway (Dec 5, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> As near as I can get to my girlfriends. And she is very nice indeed. For a reactionary that is.
> 
> Dunno when i'll be moving anyhow, money is a big problem, but I'm not in a position to do anything in Wales as i'm spending most weekends away.



Hope it works out for you.

Don't stop posting on here though - I'd miss your interminable rants which only make sense to you and you alone and which bear no relevance to the real world.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> I agree that Wales will only achieve a socialist republic within more favourable international conditions. There's no contradiction between wanting to destroy the British State, a bulwark of imperialism and reaction, and wanting to see an independent socialist Wales making links with the wider world.
> 
> Latin America has gone from a continent of fascist dictators to one of left-leaning (some better than others) democratic regimes in a generation. At their best, these new regimes offer a new challenge to global capitalism and Chavez on his re-election has talked repeatedly of a distinctively Venezuelan socialism.
> 
> ...



Well we're way off topic now so this will be my last on this thread unless it returns to the topic named at top.

For the record I believe there is a contradiction between an independent Wales, which short of a social revolution can only be a bourgeois Wales and any attempt to smash the British state. An independent Wales representing an attempt to preserve a part of that very state.

As for Chavez and the other radicals now in government in some Latin American states they do not in the least challenge the rule of capital. What they do seek to do is renegotiate the relations of their indivuidal countries and their region with imperialism. Which I happen to consider a positive and supportable effort as long as the genuine socialist forces maintain their political independence from figures who are either Bonapartists (Chavez), Populists (Morales) or reformists (Lula). in short I do not hold the sectarian position towards these figures that you falsely seek to burden me with.

While I have some sympathies withyour final paragraph at bottom I suspect that your form of socialism is every bit as statist as the forms of socialism advocated by the Stalinists, Social Denmocrats and populist socialists ever were.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 5, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Hope it works out for you.
> 
> Don't stop posting on here though - I'd miss your interminable rants which only make sense to you and you alone and which bear no relevance to the real world.



Thanks I appreciate that.

Did I ever claim my posts are relevant to the world as it is today? But unlike most lefties who post here they do relate to the real world.

Not likely to post here after moving. I can be found elsewhere ranting and raving as the mood takes me.


----------



## ICB (Dec 6, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Why do you presume the people in charge of the WAG would be the ones running a self-governed Wales?
> 
> I think Wales needs to elect different people, not the current Assembly Government.



Good idea in theory but what chance, either of it happening at all or of a new breed?  Devolution barely got a majority vote and politicians are politicians, pretty much the same bunch of incompetent wankers wherever.  Given that the NAW is a toe in the water I'd be backing off from a full dip pretty fucking sharpish.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Dec 6, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> "They may be retards but at least they're our retards"



This precisely illustrates the fatal flaw of nationalism and reformism in general the positing of nation over class.  They are not "our retards" at all, actually an ordinary working man or woman in Wales has more common interest with an ordinary working man or woman in England than in a Welsh boss, Welsh manager or Welsh millionaire (of which their are many).




			
				rhys gethin said:
			
		

> . As Tony Cliff used to tell us, the one group the capitalists must take into account was the IRA.



Your quote from Cliff seems odd, as far as I know, Cliff applied Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution to the question of Ireland.  The capitalists have taken into account the IRA, generally nationalist politicians like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are as happy to support neoliberal assaults on working class people as their unionist counterparts.

While recognising the right of the Catholic minority community in the North of Ireland to self-defence and organise against oppression and discrimination, the SWP were/ are sharply critical of nationalist and republican politics that ultimately lead to a dead-end.
Nationalist politics in the North of Ireland can't appeal to Protestant workers or break the hold that unionism has on them.  To do that, we would need to build socialist organisation from below.  We would need to push a style of politics that was as hostile to the Green Tories in the South of Ireland as to the Orange Tories in the North.  On the basis of a programme based on _class _rather than nationalism we might be able to break protestant workers away from the Orange Tories and build links with workers movements in the South.  In fact, when we see the state of politics in Northern Ireland we see where the politics of nationalism leads and how it couldn't achieve it's aim of ending the British military presence and dismantling the sectarian regime in the North, this can't be done on the basis of nationalism it can only be achieved by class politics.


----------



## chilango (Dec 6, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> This precisely illustrates the fatal flaw of nationalism and reformism in general the positing of nation over class.  They are not "our retards" at all, actually an ordinary working man or woman in Wales has more common interest with an ordinary working man or woman in England than in a Welsh boss, Welsh manager or Welsh millionaire (of which their are many).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, but stop using the word "tory" all the time...it doesn`t help.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 6, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> They are not "our retards" at all....
> 
> Your quote from Cliff seems odd, as far as I know, Cliff applied Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution to the question of Ireland.  The capitalists have taken into account the IRA, generally nationalist politicians like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness are as happy to support neoliberal assaults on working class people as their unionist counterparts.



Well of course they aren't your bastards being as you are an English revisionist.

Other than that I note that while abstractly correct your remarks relating to nationlaism are too abstract, signifying tha abndonment of the transitional method by the SWP, to have any concrete application. That an abstractly coorect politics is of no practicdal value is well illustrated by the decline of the Irish SWP for which wee http://www.indymedia.ie/article/78246


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 7, 2006)

I can't help feeling that Nep, your 'workers' that you describe are ones that read Marx and are just waiting for the Red Guard to emerge and lead them to revolution.

Workers in Wales are generally not in favour of breaking with capital. Capital has provided them with clothes, jobs, food and houses in exchange for their labour. Now I don't have the skills or tools to make my own clothes, so I will sell my labour in other ways in exchange for money, so I can buy clothes.

Why should we break with that relationship when we don't want to? What reasonable case is there for Marxist Revolution when all such attempts have resulted in tyranny?

Nonetheless, Marx is the most valid and progressive political theorist of our history and his understanding of class relationships is mainly true. I simply don't think we can interpret him into a socialist revolution because it conflicts with human nature.

What we can do is inegrate socialist ideas into the current system so that when we're selling our labour we do it in a way that is fairer to us, and we do it for more money before.

There is no way we in Wales should be getting lower wages and less rights than other capitalist countries. 
All the achievements of workers rights in Wales come from the ordinary people putting pressure on the government (The guys that WE choose to govern us). And considering what countries in the world have the best living standards for workers, they're liberal democracies following social democratic ideologies. We can build towards that in Wales. It can never happen in the UK state though, because the UK/England is a historically right-wing country. Wales is not.

And anyway, if you still want to break with capitalism for good, you'll find it alot easier to do so in an independent Wales.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 7, 2006)

ICB said:
			
		

> Good idea in theory but what chance, either of it happening at all or of a new breed?  Devolution barely got a majority vote and politicians are politicians, pretty much the same bunch of incompetent wankers wherever.  Given that the NAW is a toe in the water I'd be backing off from a full dip pretty fucking sharpish.



There are good people in Wales but I think if we had the right tools to do the job (pun unintended haha) there'd be a greater chance of success.

The Assembly is a pathetic attempt to extend British rule in Wales whilst pretending that we are controlling our own affairs. However, I wouldn't have it abolished. I would have it turned into a body that actual governs Wales. I would vote for people who actually love Wales and want to see her prosper, to run this Assembly. 

And in the context of Scotland leaving the UK if that happens, I think it'll swing in our favour pretty quickly.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 7, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I can't help feeling that Nep, your 'workers' that you describe are ones that read Marx and are just waiting for the Red Guard to emerge and lead them to revolution.
> 
> Workers in Wales are generally not in favour of breaking with capital. Capital has provided them with clothes, jobs, food and houses in exchange for their labour. Now I don't have the skills or tools to make my own clothes, so I will sell my labour in other ways in exchange for money, so I can buy clothes.
> 
> ...



If your first paragraph expresses how you think of my remarks then you are fantasing as nothing I have written here could logically lead you to such conclusions. But then judgeing from the rest of your post you are very obviously confused.

First off capital does not gift workers with 'clothes, jobs, food and houses' rather the opposite is true it is workers who produce these and all other commodities which the capitalists then expropriate from the producers. This is really very elementary stuff i suggest a reading of Adam Smith for more detail. And then a little Marx perhaps.

Given that you do not grasp the above point anything further you have to say about Marx and Marxism is worthless. Equally worthless is your suggestion that a social revolution cannot happen as it conflicts with 'human nature'. The problem with this being that a number of social revolutions have happened in the past and from what we know human nature has changed as a result of the corresponding chnages in the mode of production which led in their turn to major changes in human relations. Human nature then is not an a priori argument against a social revolution.

As for the rest of your post it is meaningless tosh with no content worth my wasting time replying to it. Assertions my friend are not arguments and that is what you need. Although given your idealist precopnceptions I doubt that you will find any valid arguments search how you will.


----------



## niclas (Dec 7, 2006)

ICB said:
			
		

> Good idea in theory but what chance, either of it happening at all or of a new breed?  Devolution barely got a majority vote and politicians are politicians, pretty much the same bunch of incompetent wankers wherever.  Given that the NAW is a toe in the water I'd be backing off from a full dip pretty fucking sharpish.



Unlike the towering geniuses that rule us from Westminster presumably? I'm constantly amazed at why leftists (and others) say the failure of the politicians in Cardiff Bay makes Welsh people unable to govern themselves whereas the failure of politicians in Westminster means we have to replace them.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 7, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> If your first paragraph expresses how you think of my remarks then you are fantasing as nothing I have written here could logically lead you to such conclusions. But then judgeing from the rest of your post you are very obviously confused.
> 
> First off capital does not gift workers with 'clothes, jobs, food and houses' rather the opposite is true it is workers who produce these and all other commodities which the capitalists then expropriate from the producers. This is really very elementary stuff i suggest a reading of Adam Smith for more detail. And then a little Marx perhaps.
> 
> ...



My main point was that your politics require a revolution which is not going to happen. However if the conditions arose where it would happen, I would participate.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 7, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> My main point was that your politics require a revolution which is not going to happen. However if the conditions arose where it would happen, I would participate.



Revolutions happen that is a matter of fact but not a revolutionary situation is not required in order to validate class struggle politics.

And while I agree with you that if a revolutionary situation were to arise in this country, which is highly unlikely in the short to medium term alas, you would indeed participate the question is on which side?


----------



## llantwit (Dec 7, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> And while I agree with you that if a revolutionary situation were to arise in this country, which is highly unlikely in the short to medium term alas, you would indeed participate the question is on which side?


Ooh Nep - you can be really catty can't you?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 7, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Ooh Nep - you can be really catty can't you?



Although blessed with good looks, charm and a brilliant intellect I confess that I have faults. One of them being my kind heartedness towards ideological opponents.


----------



## niclas (Dec 7, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> This precisely illustrates the fatal flaw of nationalism and reformism in general the positing of nation over class.  They are not "our retards" at all, actually an ordinary working man or woman in Wales has more common interest with an ordinary working man or woman in England than in a Welsh boss, Welsh manager or Welsh millionaire (of which their are many).



Straight from the school of SWP po-faced demagogy. Did you not notice the smiley?

I don't think I need a Respectoid (putting religion over class in so many cases) lecturing me, ta very much.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 7, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Straight from the school of SWP po-faced demagogy. Did you not notice the smiley?
> 
> I don't think I need a Respectoid (putting religion over class in so many cases) lecturing me, ta very much.



Niclas versus Udo game, set and match to Niclas.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 8, 2006)

Well, I do conclude that Neprimerimye is quite the silliest poster I have met here:  a purist who will grow old and athritic waiting for the perfect revolutionary situation and the perfect working class to act within it.   Till then he will do purist revolutionary work that nobody notices, I'd gather.   In my time I have known a lot of people like him.   Most of them are tories now, some of them are dead, but a few are puristically gaga, screaming abuse at anyone who speaks to them, especially their carers , and occasionally pissing themselves with great revolutionary purity.   So, right - piss off, comrade, do!


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 8, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> Well, I do conclude that Neprimerimye is quite the silliest poster I have met here:  a purist who will grow old and athritic waiting for the perfect revolutionary situation and the perfect working class to act within it.   Till then he will do purist revolutionary work that nobody notices, I'd gather.   In my time I have known a lot of people like him.   Most of them are tories now, some of them are dead, but a few are puristically gaga, screaming abuse at anyone who speaks to them, especially their carers , and occasionally pissing themselves with great revolutionary purity.   So, right - piss off, comrade, do!



How terribly boring of you Rhys. Lacking any argument you resort to abuse. Frankly dear boy I pity you. Even though you are nothing more than a conservative pillow biter at heart.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 8, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> How terribly boring of you Rhys. Lacking any argument you resort to abuse. Frankly dear boy I pity you. Even though you are nothing more than a conservative pillow biter at heart.



And I haven't called you an idiot ONCE. abusive bugger I am!   Thank you for your condolences, oh wise one.   The fact is, the world is large, as is the Class, and lots of activities are going on in both, and most of us have various human interests, like the survival of particular cultures.   Every word you have written is about NOT doing things.   I noticed in the past, however, that English/English-grovelling comrades always had lots reasons for NOT doing  Cymreig-type things (nationalism!), whereas doing English things was a clear indication of wide cultural interests.  Please, before you leave us or go entirely gaga, tell us about three actual, practical things (i.e. not just abstract ones that objectively support Blair, the UK and capitalism) that we can do NOW, to bring revolution closer while engaging with the world of experience.   Or is it like the movements of the planets, beyond our knowing?    I think myself that you are not a marxist but a fatalist .


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Dec 8, 2006)

Neppy is right to note that the Bolivarian revolution is underpinned by oil wealth - something that isn't true of Wales.  We also shouldn't romanticise Venezuela.  Despite the achievements of the Bolivarian revolution, over half the population still live in poverty.

But there is more fundamental point that Niclas and the other idolisers of Chavez miss.

What is driving the shift leftwards?  What underpins the election of Chavez and Morales?

It is a massive upsurge of class struggle _from below _in those countries.  When Chavez was first elected he would have probably headed down the Lula route of compromise with the IMF/World Bank, but after the attempted coup the people rose up to re-instate him, it has been this erruption of the poor and workers onto the political stage in Venezuela that has shifted Chavez to the left and which is driving the process.  Indeed, in many ways while Chavez symbolises this struggle he is also in some ways an obstacle to further progress and taking further the revolutionary process.  His government includes many right wing figures and a corrupt bureaucracy, increasingly he talks "anti-imperialist" in order to gloss over the class divisions within Venezuela.

What led to the election of Evo Morales?  It was a reflection of the "June Days" in 2005, an unprecedented combative working class movement.  Striking miners marching on the capital with sticks of dynamite saying "give us what we demand or we will blow the whole city up".  As leading British marxist theoretician Chris Harman put it:




			
				Chris Harman said:
			
		

> "Reports paint a picture like that of Petrograd in the summer of 1917, Berlin in January 1919, Barcelona in the autumn of 1936. They tell of general strikes; of columns of peasants marching on the city; of the occupation of oil wells and airports; of striking miners handing sticks of gelignite to striking teachers to throw against police lines; of attempts to invade the presidential palace; of threats by petrocapitalists in the east of the country to secede from the state; of workers in La Paz chanting, 'Civil war, yes!'; of the congress replacing the president while intimidated by huge, angry crowds.



In fact, Evo Morales actually defused much of the popular rebellion away from a revolutionary situation into safe reformist channels.

The point is in Wales, the far left and labour movement are incredibly weak.  An independent Wales wouldn't be driven by class struggle from below like in Latin America, the only thing that could prevent neoliberal compromise with the world system.

In fact, Rhys's embracing of nationalism actually reflects despair.  The labour movement has experienced defeat after defeat for the last 20 years.  Many people don't believe that left wing struggle from below can ever revive and therefore look for crumbs from capitalism's table.  The same argument that we hear from Niclas and Rhys about Welsh independence we hear from Rhodri Morgan, that Welsh Labour is different from New Labour.  Yes, Welsh Labour have delivered a few minor reforms but 1 in 3 children in Wales are below the poverty line and they can't really challenge neoliberalism in any effect way.

And let's not forget that Niclas is a member of Plaid, a party utterly wedded to neoliberalism.  Plaid pose as Old Labour (in South Wales) but offer the same solutions to Wales's problems as New Labour albeit with a nationalist twist, if they ever got their grubby hands on power we would see the transformation of Wales into a low wage economy and the rapid ditching of any "socialist" policies that they put forward in opposition.  Plaid see Welsh business as more progressive than foreign business, while wanting to slash corporation tax and open up the poorest areas of Wales to multinationals, reflecting Adam Price's belief that the solution to poverty is . . . exploitation.  
It takes as it's model capitalist Ireland whose celtic tiger economy is built on massive tax breaks for millionaires and multinationals and huge indirect taxation on the poor, where even at the height of the boom one-third of children lived below the poverty line.  Ireland where the government carries out all the same neoliberal attacks on workers as the Westminster government (remember the attempted "Bin tax").
New Labour and Plaid Cymru are two pigs in the same trough, two sides of the same coin.
By the way, have Plaid decided which party they are going to be in coalition with next year?  Will it be the Neo-Liberal Democrats? (as Adam Price would like), the Tories? (as some of the old leadership are prepared to contemplate), or New Labour? (as your deputy leader wants)


----------



## niclas (Dec 8, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Frankly dear boy I pity you. Even though you are nothing more than a conservative pillow biter at heart.



Er, can you clarify that last one - got no problem with the conservative, even if he isnt, but pillow biter is (to my knowledge) a term of abuse for gay men. Are you calling Rhys a gayer?  That's very sophisticated.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 8, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> The point is in Wales, the far left and labour movement are incredibly weak.  An independent Wales wouldn't be driven by class struggle from below like in Latin America, the only thing that could prevent neoliberal compromise with the world system.
> 
> In fact, Rhys's embracing of nationalism actually reflects despair.  The labour movement has experienced defeat after defeat for the last 20 years.  Many people don't believe that left wing struggle from below can ever revive and therefore look for crumbs from capitalism's table.  The same argument that we hear from Niclas and Rhys about Welsh independence we hear from Rhodri Morgan, that Welsh Labour is different from New Labour.  Yes, Welsh Labour have delivered a few minor reforms but 1 in 3 children in Wales are below the poverty line and they can't really challenge neoliberalism in any effect way.



No - I had this argument with various comrades years since.   I don't think any of the three is _incredibly_ weak, but the second two are currently deeply confused and lacking any workable political expression.   That's why, being interested in the culture of oppressed groups and my own history, I choose to work for the moment in terms of the 'national' struggle - which obviously has its own limitations.   But I have yet to meet any of those famous capitalists who control it:  it puts forward as left a position as is acceptable within current political discourse.   I (and many others) have more to say when it is possible to say it effectively.

_Anything_ that opposes the current historical re-enactment boredom from the left is worth working with.   The SWP does useful work in introducing English people to Marxism, but it is too chauvinist for me just now.   When the Struggle hots up again, it will change - as will all these various organisations.   I never despair, me.


----------



## niclas (Dec 8, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Neppy is right note that the Bolivarian revolution is underpinned by oil wealth - something that isn't true of Wales.  We also shouldn't romanticise Venezuela.  Despite the achievements of the Bolivarian revolution, over half the population live in poverty.
> 
> But there is more fundamental point that Niclas and the other idolisers of Chavez miss.



I don't think I was idolising when I said:




			
				Niclas said:
			
		

> It won't be without its faults (and the Venezuelan situation is unusual because of the oil wealth) but it's already changing the world.



Venezuela is in a fascinating situation of dual power and the balance of class forces is very delicate. I don't know enough about the situation on the ground (and neither does anyone outside Venezuela I'd guess) to say what will happen. I think it's arrogant for us to dictate the speed at which the Venezuelan revolution should proceed (not that that's stopped the Brit left in the past).

How Chavez deals with the powerful bourgeoisie, the middle class, the media and (no doubt) US involvement will be interesting. Maybe he's talking left and will disappoint us but, as Udo correctly says, he's moving left as a result of grassroots pressure.

In effect he's probably moving as fast as the class struggle will allow - maybe it's too slow, maybe it's too fast. I doubt anyone gets it right.

Udo quotes a "leading British marxist theoretician" (aka an old SWP veteran)with a third-hand report on Bolivia. Maybe Evo Morales has "defused much of the popular rebellion away from a revolutionary situation into safe reformist channels" or maybe he too is biding his time. The Bolsheviks took part in the Duma before the October revolution and I don't see the SWP denouncing them as reformists, although again circumstances are very different.




			
				UDO said:
			
		

> The point is in Wales, the far left and labour movement are incredibly weak.  An independent Wales wouldn't be driven by class struggle from below like in Latin America, the only thing that could prevent neoliberal compromise with the world system.



Who says - are you a psychic as well as a world expert on Latin America now?

Breaking up the British State on a progressive internationalist basis would be a boost for those opposed to neo-liberalism and imperialism. One of Udo's leading SWP colleagues in Scotland - Iain Davidson - agrees. In fact the SWP in Scotland is in a party (Solidarity) that explicitly supports an independent socialist Scotland. 

Davidson is quoted in this week's Socialist Worker as saying: “Socialists support Scots being able to choose whether or not they want to be part of Britain (the ‘right of self-determination’).” 

He goes on to say it “would effectively be a judgement on Britain’s role in the new world order, and New Labour’s record more generally”. For that reason, “there would be a strong case for refusing to vote for the continued existence of the British state.” 

So, does the SWP speak with forked tongue on national liberation? 

Udo, when you've got your line sorted out with the central committee, please get back to us.


----------



## rhys gethin (Dec 8, 2006)

neprimerimye - You sometimes make evidently sound points, as, for instance, that the State itself does not exploit workers.   You whole tone, your offensiveness and so on, though, prevent anyone from listening, I think.   Like many of my old now-tory comrades you are, alas, not wanting to convince but to build up your own ego, apparently.   Well, well - that's capitalism.   But Lenin said: 'Patiently explain', and I think you ought to put that up on your wall as a sampler for your revolutionary needlework.   The majority of people tend to think, most of the time, about other matters than the finer doctrinal points, and tend to act in all sorts of ways that reflect their class interest in a most muddled, human kind of way.   People like Cliff could understand that, and discuss it as human beings discuss things - he didn't need to prove how clever he was, he being so evidently clever.   I think you might learn by that.


----------



## niclas (Dec 9, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> And let's not forget that Niclas is a member of Plaid, a party utterly wedded to neoliberalism.  Plaid pose as Old Labour (in South Wales) but offer the same solutions to Wales's problems as New Labour albeit with a nationalist twist, if they ever got their grubby hands on power we would see the transformation of Wales into a low wage economy and the rapid ditching of any "socialist" policies that they put forward in opposition.  Plaid see Welsh business as more progressive than foreign business, while wanting to slash corporation tax and open up the poorest areas of Wales to multinationals, reflecting Adam Price's belief that the solution to poverty is . . . exploitation.
> It takes as it's model capitalist Ireland whose celtic tiger economy is built on massive tax breaks for millionaires and multinationals and huge indirect taxation on the poor, where even at the height of the boom one-third of children lived below the poverty line.  Ireland where the government carries out all the same neoliberal attacks on workers as the Westminster government (remember the attempted "Bin tax").
> New Labour and Plaid Cymru are two pigs in the same trough, two sides of the same coin.



I joined Plaid a year ago because I believe it's the best vehicle we have for achieving an independent socialist Wales. 

But I won't defend policies slavishly. I disagree with the cut in Corporation Tax for the reasons stated above although Udo can't really have it both ways and say Plaid favours Welsh business AND wants to open up the West and the Valleys to multinationals.

I understand the proposal to cut business rates if it's to ensure that small local enterprises - hairdressers, one-man businesses, etc - stay in business in areas that are in real economic meltdown at the moment. I don't think a socialist society has to nationalise or take under workers' control such one-man businesses.

And, in the here and now, we need practical solutions within capitalism as well as a long-term goal of replacing capitalism, otherwise we're reduced to sniping from the sidelines. That's why I support Plaid's housing policy that will build more council housing, help first-time buyers and start break the freemarket that distorts the housing market. Not in itself socialist but a step in the right direction.

On the issue of the Irish Republic. Nobody in Plaid is arguing that the Irish experience of increased inequality, poor public services and an overheating housing market is one to copy. But there's no doubt that the Irish govt used Objective One money in a more positive way than New Labour has - to develop educational and transport infrastructure. That, I think, is the point of raising the Irish experience - better education and transport are a tangible result that you cannot point to in Wales after 6 years of Obj One money. That's because the irish govt took a strategic decision that the Labour Assembly govt couldn't do because it's tied to London and we don't have the political power to think independently. 

Udo tries to pin the Irish govt's neo-liberal attacks on workers on Plaid - it's just empty smears. Does Plaid have a bin tax policy? No. Does Plaid have plans to attack workers? No. Does it plan to offer tax breaks to millionaires? No. 

Plaid is far from perfect but for me it's the only credible political alternative for the Welsh left. And I know the Brit left won't be joining - which is a tremendous relief after the experience of the WSA et al.


----------



## Dai Sheep (Dec 9, 2006)

ICB said:
			
		

> Good idea in theory but what chance, either of it happening at all or of a new breed?  Devolution barely got a majority vote and politicians are politicians, pretty much the same bunch of incompetent wankers wherever.  Given that the NAW is a toe in the water I'd be backing off from a full dip pretty fucking sharpish.



Research has shown support for devolution and indeed increased devolution has grown dramatically in Wales since 1997,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4759946.stm
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...objectid=17473786&siteid=50082-name_page.html

and it must be remembered the National Assembly is still a very young institution - given time it will work effectively, provided it gets full legislative and tax varying powers. At the moment it is trying to do the job with one arm tied behind its back - Alderney and the Isle of Man have more powers than Wales.

The bottom line is Westminster has failed miserably to govern Wales effectively for hundreds of years, an independent Welsh government would be far better placed to look after Welsh interests at home and abroad.

IMHO Scotland will be independent by 2020 and Wales will follow soon after.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 11, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> And I haven't called you an idiot ONCE. abusive bugger I am!   Thank you for your condolences, oh wise one.   The fact is, the world is large, as is the Class, and lots of activities are going on in both, and most of us have various human interests, like the survival of particular cultures.   Every word you have written is about NOT doing things.   I noticed in the past, however, that English/English-grovelling comrades always had lots reasons for NOT doing  Cymreig-type things (nationalism!), whereas doing English things was a clear indication of wide cultural interests.  Please, before you leave us or go entirely gaga, tell us about three actual, practical things (i.e. not just abstract ones that objectively support Blair, the UK and capitalism) that we can do NOW, to bring revolution closer while engaging with the world of experience.   Or is it like the movements of the planets, beyond our knowing?    I think myself that you are not a marxist but a fatalist .



Rhys you use so many words and say so little. Dunno about you but as far as i'm concerned tyour Welsh culture is just a pale imitation of English culture anyhow. Fact is son that national cutures are dying and only backward looking fools look to preserve what is now an anachronism.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 11, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> neprimerimye - You sometimes make evidently sound points, as, for instance, that the State itself does not exploit workers.   You whole tone, your offensiveness and so on, though, prevent anyone from listening, I think.   Like many of my old now-tory comrades you are, alas, not wanting to convince but to build up your own ego, apparently.   Well, well - that's capitalism.   But Lenin said: 'Patiently explain', and I think you ought to put that up on your wall as a sampler for your revolutionary needlework.   The majority of people tend to think, most of the time, about other matters than the finer doctrinal points, and tend to act in all sorts of ways that reflect their class interest in a most muddled, human kind of way.   People like Cliff could understand that, and discuss it as human beings discuss things - he didn't need to prove how clever he was, he being so evidently clever.   I think you might learn by that.



Yawn.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 11, 2006)

interesting to see niclas quoting from a recent socialist worker article on scotland - here is the link if others want to read it

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10252


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 11, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> I joined Plaid a year ago because I believe it's the best vehicle we have for achieving an independent socialist Wales.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Plaid is far from perfect but for me it's the only credible political alternative for the Welsh left. And I know the Brit left won't be joining - which is a tremendous relief after the experience of the WSA et al.



Plaid does not have a policy for an independent Wales in the least. In fact that pro-capitalist party is in favour or preserving the rule of capital and is also in favour of remaining within multi-national imperialist institutions such as the EU. They aren't even real nationalists for pitys sake. As fr their pretensions to socialism they are a peurile attempt to win votes on the basis of appealing to the memory of the now bankrupt social democratic policies which labour onced pimped for.


----------



## niclas (Dec 11, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> interesting to see niclas quoting from a recent socialist worker article on scotland - here is the link if others want to read it
> 
> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10252



Even more interesting would be whether nwmn supports the SWP's pro-independence line in Scotland.


----------



## niclas (Dec 11, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Plaid does not have a policy for an independent Wales in the least. In fact that pro-capitalist party is in favour or preserving the rule of capital and is also in favour of remaining within multi-national imperialist institutions such as the EU. They aren't even real nationalists for pitys sake. As fr their pretensions to socialism they are a peurile attempt to win votes on the basis of appealing to the memory of the now bankrupt social democratic policies which labour onced pimped for.



And if Plaid was to announce it was pulling out of the EU, it would presumably be "narrowly nationalist". Ya just can't win.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 11, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> And if Plaid was to announce it was pulling out of the EU, it would presumably be "narrowly nationalist". Ya just can't win.



If Plaid were to announce that it was for withdrawal from the EU such a policy would be akin to many others it has adopted fr window dressing. That is to say of no importance at all other than as a sop to naive left liberals masquerading as socialists.

Although i conceded it is true that such a declaration on the part of palid would be denounced as narrow nationalism just as similar declarations by Labour 'Lefts', individuals such as Wedgewood Benn come to mind, are denounced for their narrow nationalism and defence of the British state.

But its not just the EU that Plaid favours membership of is it? After this supposed 'socialist' party is also in favour of remaining in the UInited Nations the latter day den of thieves.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 12, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Even more interesting would be whether nwmn supports the SWP's pro-independence line in Scotland.



On the basis that it is put in that article yes - but a large part of that article also argues against the idea of independence as a panacea to some sort of left turn in Scotland.


----------



## nwnm (Dec 12, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> And if Plaid was to announce it was pulling out of the EU, it would presumably be "narrowly nationalist". Ya just can't win.


I think that would depend on what basis <and it wouldn't necesarily mean pulling out of euro elections either>. How about raising some of the slogans to have come out of the ESF like "no to a bosses europe, yes to a people's europe" <a bit popular frontist some would say - but heading in vaguely the right direction>? That would take a leap of the imagination <or probably a different organisation>. This would mean abandoning the 'Wales in Europe' strategy which has always baffled me - why campaign for a Welsh parliament only to secede power to Brussels?


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 12, 2006)

nwnm said:
			
		

> I think that would depend on what basis <and it wouldn't necesarily mean pulling out of euro elections either>. How about raising some of the slogans to have come out of the ESF like "no to a bosses europe, yes to a people's europe" <a bit popular frontist some would say - but heading in vaguely the right direction>? That would take a leap of the imagination <or probably a different organisation>. This would mean abandoning the 'Wales in Europe' strategy which has always baffled me - why campaign for a Welsh parliament only to secede power to Brussels?



Such a policy would be populist not Popular Frontist which our semi-literate chum really ought to know. But given that his dying sect is submerged in the populist monstrosity that is Respect this minor error on his part is easily understood.

More annoying is his silly assumption that the adoption of a populist slogan somehow leads in the right direction. Surely no pro-capitalist direction is correct from a working class perspective?

And in that last line you mean cede not secede dear boy.


----------



## ICB (Dec 12, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> Research has shown support for devolution and indeed increased devolution has grown dramatically in Wales since 1997,



My personal research amongst those dealing with the NAW and WAG on a regular basis shows the direct opposite.  There are many areas where Wales lags increasingly behind England due to sheer bloody-mindedness about learning and benefitting from work done "over there".  Granted there are some examples in reverse but those lessons tend to be learned quicker.



> IMHO Scotland will be independent by 2020 and Wales will follow soon after.



More likely in Brittany according to the ESRC.

There's also no real independent review or meta-research to substantiate your view...


> there are no substantial studies that combine a full historical approach to national identity with an appreciation of recent political events. Recent works naturally focus on the 1997 referendum and on electoral and constitutional changes. Those who try to examine changes since 1979 are hampered by the absence of historical research on recent Welsh history. Accounts of the devolution process, generally by insiders, have dealt almost uniquely with the world since 1992 or even 1997. History and political science, archives and numbers, the world before 1979 and the world since Blair, have become the preserve of separate groups. A proper understanding of longer-term processes, and of the relationship between cultural changes and political actions, has been the most significant casualty of this separation.


 source

The 2003 elections were hardly a ringing endorsement of devolution or Plaid given the overall results and the turnaround in the Rhondda.



> Devolution is increasingly accepted in principle by the people of Wales, but it can hardly be said to have enthused them.....it would be extremely foolhardy for any observer to make any definitive claims as to theshape of the new Welsh politics on the basis of two elections and one our year term


 Wyn Jones & Roger Scully, Department of International Politics, University of Wales Aberystwyth 

As they say all a bit early days to know where it's heading, we'll see what next year's elections turn up.  Personally I have very little faith in politicians of any creed or colour and no strong views of my own on which way it "should" go as a matter of principle or ideology, just a general frustration with what I have to live with at work when comparing with English equivalents.


----------



## Karac (Dec 12, 2006)

ICB said:
			
		

> Personally I have very little faith in politicians of any creed or colour and no strong views of my own on which way it "should" go as a matter of principle or ideology, just a general frustration with what I have to live with at work when comparing with English equivalents.


Typical-"Ive got a nice house in the Welsh borders" reaction


----------



## ICB (Dec 13, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Typical-"Ive got a nice house in the Welsh borders" reaction



Typical, "I work in Welsh Local Government" reaction actually*, the house is a very ordinary victorian terraced 3-bed originally built for railway workers. 

(*as shared by colleagues in Gwynedd, Ceridigion, RCT, Merthyr, etc.)


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 14, 2006)

Wales is already part of the EU indirectly, the EU would be losing territory if Wales became independent and decided to remain outside it. The amount of assistance we've had coming from Europe has for the past 3 years been greater than the amount of assistance Wales gets from London. If the EU is willing to help rejuvenate Wales and London isn't, then I'd say go with the EU. We can always vote to leave, join, or determine our own relationship with Europe. As part of the UK, we are not allowed to do that.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 14, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Wales is already part of the EU indirectly, the EU would be losing territory if Wales became independent and decided to remain outside it. The amount of assistance we've had coming from Europe has for the past 3 years been greater than the amount of assistance Wales gets from London. If the EU is willing to help rejuvenate Wales and London isn't, then I'd say go with the EU. We can always vote to leave, join, or determine our own relationship with Europe. As part of the UK, we are not allowed to do that.



So what you are saying is that you are opposed to Wales being fully independent but believe that Wales should form part of the EU as there are more subsidies to be got from Brussels than from London?

Pardon me for saying this but you're not really a nationalist are you? More a hunter after subsidies.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> So what you are saying is that you are opposed to Wales being fully independent but believe that Wales should form part of the EU as there are more subsidies to be got from Brussels than from London?
> 
> Pardon me for saying this but you're not really a nationalist are you? More a hunter after subsidies.



I support Wales being fully independent and thus having the fully independent choice of whether to leave the EU or join the EU.


----------



## neprimerimye (Dec 15, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I support Wales being fully independent and thus having the fully independent choice of whether to leave the EU or join the EU.



If you support 'Wales being fully independent' then by definition you must oppose Wales being in the EU. Membership of the EU entails the surrender of elements of sovereignity. In other words any state joining such an international body is not fully independent.

Do not mistake my meaning I'm in favour of Wales joining an international federation and surrendering sovereignty. But a European federation of Workers' States not an imperialist body such as the EU the aim of which i to further the exploitation of Europes workers and the oppression of the rest of the globe. And that is what you buy into with your pro-capitalist policy on the EU.


----------



## Gavin Bl (Dec 15, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I'm in favour of Wales joining an international federation and surrendering sovereignty. But a European federation of Workers' States.



* decides not to hold breath *


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 17, 2006)

I think the EU has succesfully resolved that post-Napoleonic disorder in Europe, states are generally co-operative in the EU now, and there has been beneifical legislation coming out of there for us (including workers rights laws & the social charter) that the UK govt wouldn't ever have delivered.

That said, it is a primarily unhealthy organisation. But I think Wales would be better off being a member than being not a member, and at the moment Nep, Wales can't decide what to do about it. If my choice involves surrendering sovereignty (which is becoming less relevant in the era of globalisation anyway), it's more democratic than the current arrangement.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Dec 18, 2006)

The Social Charter is not worth the paper it is written on.  Workers in the UK work the longest hours for the worst pay in western Europe.  More recent EU packages like the Euro and European Constitution contain clauses that would force signatories to implement neoliberal restructurings of their economy and open up public services/utitilities to private business hence why every major trade union oppose it. 

Plaid supported both Euro and European Constitution.  Fortunately in most European countries both were beaten back by mass campaigns led by Socialists, trade unions, left wing activists of the social democratic parties, the old communist parties and the greens.


----------



## lewislewis (Dec 20, 2006)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> The Social Charter is not worth the paper it is written on.  Workers in the UK work the longest hours for the worst pay in western Europe.  More recent EU packages like the Euro and European Constitution contain clauses that would force signatories to implement neoliberal restructurings of their economy and open up public services/utitilities to private business hence why every major trade union oppose it.
> 
> Plaid supported both Euro and European Constitution.  Fortunately in most European countries both were beaten back by mass campaigns led by Socialists, trade unions, left wing activists of the social democratic parties, the old communist parties and the greens.



The Euro hasn't come up yet : s Neither did Plaid support the Euro Constitution they just said yes to a referendum.

Workers in the UK certainly do work the longest hours for the worst pay in Western Europe, and workers in Wales the longest hours for the worst pay in the UK (with the exception of Northern Ireland).
Much longer hours and less pay than say, the Republic of Ireland. Which is a member of the EU. Which even, if you wanted to go down that road, has things like the Euro but that isn't an issue yet for Wales.

Edit- and the social charter is the first international legal document that recognises the right to strike, something very helpful when myself and fellow Plaid activists were supporting the firefighters strike (I haven't visited others since then but the party does constantly, especially the local strikes nobody heards about).


----------

