# Tory UK EU Exit Referendum



## paolo (May 11, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/11/david-cameron-european-union-referendum

Sounding like it could be nearer than expected.

I'm trying to work out what Cameron's strategy is in doing this. My take so far has that he didn't believe in the idea himself, but did it to play party politics (and to lesser degree, try to fend off a bleed to UKIP).

Is this early move an attempt to flush it out of the way, and more likely to get a 'Stay' vote? Or something else?

[My own view is that an exit is a terrible isolationist move - rob people of all sorts of benefits, such as rights and consumer protections, and damage business and the economy to boot - lose lose]


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## frogwoman (May 11, 2015)

He wants to stay in the EU imo.


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## brogdale (May 11, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> He wants to stay in the EU imo.


His paymasters certainly do.


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## Chick Webb (May 12, 2015)

He's obviously pro-EU, and he's confident that he can stir up enough fear to make the referendum a safe stay in vote.  I think all that talk of renegotiating Britain's place in Europe is just guff too, and he doesn't really intend anything by it.

I think he's right too that fear of what might be lost will be the deciding factor in not leaving winning the referendum, but I'd be really curious to know how popular the option of leaving would be right now before the big fear campaign.


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## kebabking (May 12, 2015)

i too think he wants to stay in, and i'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of tory voters want to stay in - a lot of that might well be reluctant 'in the absence of anything better' and 'its not perfect by any stretch, but its better than being out', but as we saw last week, the Tories are quite good at marshalling the reluctant vote...

i'll be voting to stay in, i think its critical for our economy, and i'd be hugely concerned about the strategic/geo-political effects of casting ourselves out of what is - for all its faults - the richest, and largest trading and political bloc on the face of the earth.


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

Interesting Guardian piece here about the various options available for defining the electorate for the BrExit ref...

Basically revolves around issues of whether the criteria will be citizenship, nationality or residence. Add in the age question and the size of the electorate could vary by as much as 7.6 million!

Arguements ahoy!


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## DotCommunist (May 13, 2015)

can we not call it brexit. Why does eveything about europe have to have some wanky new shorthand like the troika. Fucking obfuscatory is what I recon :shakes fist:


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> can we not call it brexit. Why does eveything about europe have to have some wanky new shorthand like the troika. Fucking obfuscatory is what I recon :*shakes fist*:




You're right, of course. From now on we should properly refer to it as "_Her Majesty's Government's proposed referendum on United Kingdom membership of the European Union_". Snappier.


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## weltweit (May 13, 2015)

"The EU Referendum" would suffice!


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## skyscraper101 (May 13, 2015)

Here's hoping some of the more vocal euro sceptic tories start shouting loudly throughout the campaign and the party falls apart like they did in the 90s. It's their kryptonite and I can toally see why they'd go early on a referendum to get it off the table fast.


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## SpackleFrog (May 13, 2015)

paolo said:


> My own view is that an exit is a terrible isolationist move - rob people of all sorts of benefits, such as rights and consumer protections



Such as?


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## Kaka Tim (May 13, 2015)

Ironically the biggest threat to the sovereignty and power of united kingdom would be for it to leave the EU - as it would provoke a second scots independence referendum - and put norn ireland in a very interesting position as well. Independent ulster? I imagine it would be gift to the welsh independence movement as well.


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## Lo Siento. (May 13, 2015)

The Tories and their paymasters want to stay in and probably (rightly) figure that it's best to have this referendum just after they've won an election.


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## DotCommunist (May 13, 2015)

Lo Siento. said:


> The Tories and their paymasters want to stay in and probably (rightly) figure that it's best to have this referendum just after they've won an election.


Don't think all of em do. My local was returned with a hefty landslide and would vote out.


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

When are we having it then?


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

skyscraper101 said:


> Here's hoping some of the more vocal euro sceptic tories start shouting loudly throughout the campaign and the party falls apart like they did in the 90s. It's their kryptonite and I can toally see why they'd go early on a referendum to get it off the table fast.



I know im really looking forward to it.  I'd vote to leave btw.


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## weltweit (May 13, 2015)

Anyone who wants to leave can go live in Switzerland and leave the UK to its chosen path within the EU.


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## weltweit (May 13, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I know im really looking forward to it.  I'd vote to leave btw.



Why?


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Anyone who wants to leave can go live in Switzerland and leave the UK to its chosen path within the EU.



Its chosen path? 

We havent had the referendum yet!


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Why?



I hate the EU. 

I'm looking forward to watching the tories destroy themselves too.


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## Lo Siento. (May 13, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Don't think all of em do. My local was returned with a hefty landslide and would vote out.


Not every MP, but the institution as a whole.


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

The greatest part of all this is that cameron specifically campaigned on an EU referendum. There is no way he can stop it happening without looking completely weak and incompetent. By the way I reckon people wi'll vote to stay in but im hoping for a very very narrow split.


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## SpackleFrog (May 13, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> The greatest part of all this is that cameron specifically campaigned on an EU referendum. There is no way he can stop it happening without looking completely weak and incompetent. By the way I reckon people wi'll vote to stay in but im hoping for a very very narrow split.



The campaign of abject terror they're gonna launch will make Project Fear in Scotland look like a light hearted debate club.

_And Labour will line up with the Tories for a referendum campaign, again._


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> The campaign of abject terror they're gonna launch will make Project Fear in Scotland look like a light hearted debate club.
> 
> _And Labour will line up with the Tories for a referendum campaign, again._



I know. It'll be amazing. I know the country will probably vote to stay in but it could be a 45-55 split.


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## weltweit (May 13, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I hate the EU. ..


Seems quite a strong emotion to have about something that is basically a trade block.


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## SpackleFrog (May 13, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I know. It'll be amazing. I know the country will probably vote to stay in but it could be a 45-55 split.



I reckon 55-45 is about bang on to be fair, might check the odds.


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> The campaign of abject terror they're gonna launch will make Project Fear in Scotland look like a light hearted debate club.
> 
> _And Labour will line up with the Tories for a referendum campaign, again._


I'm assuming that the vermin will be hoping that this time the disaffected will peel off to UKIP as a result of cuddling up with the enemy. Assuming the tory HQ can control events and establish a "Stay" vote, their strategy wrt the two constitutional referenda will look either brilliant or extremely lucky.


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

VOTE YES FOR CHAOS! NIGEL FARAGE! AND EXTREMISM!


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## SpackleFrog (May 13, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Seems quite a strong emotion to have about something that is basically a trade block.



It was basically a trade block 40 years ago Weltweit, keep up!


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## weltweit (May 13, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> It was basically a trade block 40 years ago Weltweit, keep up!


The trade block bit is the bit I want to be in!!


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> It was basically a trade block 40 years ago Weltweit, keep up!


Even if it were just a FTA, there'd still be reason to hate it. I'm sure that many Mexicans hate NAFTA.


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

A SAFE PAIR OF HANDS WITH DAVID CAMERON DEFENDING OUR INTERESTS IN EUROPE OR THE CHAOS OF NIGEL FARAGE , EXTREMISTS AND NO WAY TO DEFEND OUR BORDERS AGAINST THE SCOTTISH THREAT


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

weltweit said:


> The trade block bit is the bit I want to be in!!


You sound as though you own a trans-national company!


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## mauvais (May 13, 2015)

I quite like the EU. In the way that I quite like repeatedly falling down the stairs when the alternative being offered is brain cancer, anyway.

When Britain's authoritarian, socially right-moving illiberalism and economic fuckery outpaces the rest of bankrupt and revolting Europe's, they're marginally more on my side by passive accident than not. Not much in it, but some.

If we are going to be part of it though, we could do a lot better than our hated, disastrous, self-defeating arms length engagement with it though.


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> A SAFE PAIR OF HANDS WITH DAVID CAMERON DEFENDING OUR INTERESTS IN EUROPE OR THE CHAOS OF NIGEL FARAGE , EXTREMISTS AND NO WAY TO DEFEND OUR BORDERS AGAINST THE SCOTTISH THREAT


bin down 'spoons?


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## SpackleFrog (May 13, 2015)

weltweit said:


> The trade block bit is the bit I want to be in!!



Why? Do you export a lot of goods to European markets? 

PS The really complicated bit will be which treaties we'd have to rip up in the event of vote to leave...


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## SpackleFrog (May 13, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Not much in it, but some. QUOTE]
> 
> What?


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## DotCommunist (May 13, 2015)

we can do that without the structure of the EU. The scandies trade under the EFTA, as does switzerland and, oddly, lichenstein

@wielty


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## chilango (May 13, 2015)

On a personal level I'm 100% in. I consider myself a European citizen, but admit Ive been bought off by the EU funding various European adventures of mine and having a partner and daughter from two further EU states makes "European" a nice hassle free label.

But politically "out" would be interesting. 

Where will the "out" campaign come from?

What forces will back it?


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## mauvais (May 13, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> ...


Which what?

By what means are they on my side, do you mean? Well, is it not embarrassing that we now have to count in part on EU pressure to stop our government absolving us of human rights legislation? Or to get them to clean up the air?


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## mauvais (May 13, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> we can do that without the structure of the EU. The scandies trade under the EFTA, as does switzerland and, oddly, lichenstein
> 
> @wielty


It's not a great model. They get a rum deal that amounts to many of the full member obligations for only some of the benefits, much as you would expect to be offered if you only wanted to half-commit to something.

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations

Trading rights, but in return, almost all the laws, free movement of people inc. Schengen, free movement of goods, a load of money and no voting rights. This is also a historic agreement from the early days of the EEC and there's limited reason to think it would even be offered today to an exiting member, not least because it would encourage other nations.


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

At risk of being called an utter tool...I'm going to offer some polling evidence! 







Would be a brave punter to put money on this though; those is pretty wild swings over such a comparatively short time frame. I suppose the watchword is the economy; stupid. If it were to go tits-up in Euroland (GrExit) I'd expect the lines to crossover again.


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## Lo Siento. (May 13, 2015)

brogdale said:


> At risk of being called an utter tool...I'm going to offer some polling evidence!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'd expect that blue line to be heading upwards in a referendum campaign, I think. Amount of cash and fearmongering they'll throw at it...


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## Belushi (May 13, 2015)

if they get the same clowns in who did the pro-AV campaign in we're Brexiting :thumbs :


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## Dogsauce (May 13, 2015)

UKIP is the bogeyman now, so people will be pushed into voting against 'them' rather than about the issue, in the same way the AV referendum was skewed by people wanting to piss on Clegg's chips.  I wonder if the press will behave themselves?  Desmond won't, Murdoch perhaps will (bigging up whatever scraps Cameron comes home with from renegotiating).


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## SpackleFrog (May 13, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Which what?
> 
> By what means are they on my side, do you mean? Well, is it not embarrassing that we now have to count in part on EU pressure to stop our government absolving us of human rights legislation? Or to get them to clean up the air?



What do you think the EU are going to do about the Tories scrapping human rights legislation?

I'm not embarrassed by the situation, no, but that's probably because I'm not begging the European ruling class to protect me from the British ruling class.


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## mauvais (May 13, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> What do you think the EU are going to do about the Tories scrapping human rights legislation?
> 
> I'm not embarrassed by the situation, no, but that's probably because I'm not begging the European ruling class to protect me from the British ruling class.


If the UK failed to maintain a set of national legislation that put into effect the requisites of the European Convention on Human Rights, a fundamental membership obligation, what do you suppose would happen? I don't know either, but I don't imagine it'd be straightforward.

And maybe you're not looking for that, but I'm not sure how you expect these elements to practically improve if we exit either. Are the left going to rise up from the grave any time soon?


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## hot air baboon (May 13, 2015)

...its something of a political truism that referenda end up being treated as a sort of by-election opportunity to kick the incumbent govt if they have incurred public disfavour...so not surprising they are strongly incentivised to go early in the parliament...

...are the pro-EU contingent really chilled over what has been inflicted on Ireland & Greece under EU diktat & the necessity when joining the euro to forever forgo exchange rate adjustment for Internal_devaluation..?


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## brogdale (May 13, 2015)

Lo Siento. said:


> You'd expect that blue line to be heading upwards in a referendum campaign, I think. Amount of cash and fearmongering they'll throw at it...


Maybe, but the polling seems to react quite sensitively to 'events'....dear boy.


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

Why we're better off staying in the EU. By Jim Murphy


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## gosub (May 13, 2015)

mauvais said:


> It's not a great model. They get a rum deal that amounts to many of the full member obligations for only some of the benefits, much as you would expect to be offered if you only wanted to half-commit to something.
> 
> Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations
> 
> Trading rights, but in return, almost all the laws, free movement of people inc. Schengen, free movement of goods, a load of money and no voting rights. This is also a historic agreement from the early days of the EEC and there's limited reason to think it would even be offered today to an exiting member, not least because it would encourage other nations.



except.  most of the EU stuff is their interpretation of global agreements, which Norway has a seat on, whilst individual EU members don't.


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## ffsear (May 13, 2015)

Cameron will produce some way of recommending a "yes" vote to stay in, after getting _some_ sort of concessions from Europe, which they will offer for him to be able to produce them here (maybe not in this forum, when I say "here", but in this country, anyway).

It will not satisfy his backbenchers like that nice Jacob Rees-Moggy-The-Pussycat, but he will manage it anyway, is my guess.

Strangely, a Brexit was more likely after a Labour government, in my opinion, because Cameron would have resigned (of course) if Labour won, and then the _next_ Conservative leader would be a Eurosceptic or Euroscepchick, and so after 2020 there would have been a Brexit. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But now probably not?


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## krink (May 13, 2015)

I love the confused looks on the faces of the the shouty right-wingers in my life when i say I'm against the EU
(same thing happens when i say i don't support Labour)

Vote Yes to leave, give the Scots another go. Love europe hate the EU. etc etc.


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## mauvais (May 13, 2015)

hot air baboon said:


> ...are the pro-EU contingent really chilled over what has been inflicted on Ireland & Greece under EU diktat & the necessity when joining the euro to forever forgo exchange rate adjustment for Internal_devaluation..?


No, it's grim, and the ever-larger sprawl of the monetary union project far beyond its closely-aligned origins and far outpacing a sensible timeline has always been predictably disastrous, like trying to play economic Jenga in a hurry, and thus wholly avoidable.

Nonetheless even that has deep complexities - I'm no economist but on the face of it, the EU brought boom as well as bust to Ireland, for example, and the crisis that brought it all down was/is one of simply beyond the Eurozone, and so what would have happened to these countries without integration?

I don't know how anyone forms a coherent narrative out of it, to be honest.

As for the social project, though, and the ever-closer union of that, I enjoy the benefits of it. It doesn't excuse the economic train wreck, and they can't be entirely separated now, but to me the net effect calls for a reworking of the union rather than the abandonment and destruction of it.


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## mauvais (May 13, 2015)

gosub said:


> except.  most of the EU stuff is their interpretation of global agreements, which Norway has a seat on, whilst individual EU members don't.


I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but can you quantify/qualify this idea of EU legislation being globally and externally led? Someone has to be driving said agreements; they don't just materialise. I also don't agree about voting; you're quite right that Norway has a global voice of its own, but not on EU internal matters, and it's curious to say that EU members lack influence on EU behaviour, because they clearly have representation. Just perhaps not disproportionately, i.e. a veto.


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

krink said:


> I love the confused looks on the faces of the the shouty right-wingers in my life when i say I'm against the EU
> (same thing happens when i say i don't support Labour)
> 
> Vote Yes to leave, give the Scots another go. Love europe hate the EU. etc etc.



Me too


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## gosub (May 13, 2015)

mauvais said:


> I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong, but can you quantify/qualify this idea of EU legislation being globally and externally led? Someone has to be driving said agreements; they don't just materialise. I also don't agree about voting; you're quite right that Norway has a global voice of its own, but not on EU internal matters, and it's curious to say that EU members lack influence on EU behaviour, because they clearly have representation. Just perhaps not disproportionately, i.e. a veto.



I did n't say EU couldn't influence EU matters, but EU members have to abide by a common approach to global agreements.   Though if you want to bring up vetoes, most of them have gone, replaced by majority rule, and Cameron's "heroic veto" didn't stop ALL other states adopting the measures he opposed.



Cameron will come back with "associate membership" (that all non EUro members will be offered) try to sell it as the great victory, when that is the path closest to government by Fax.



As to quatifying I wish i could, it one of the areas In or Out that gets examined -where are legislation comes from.	As it is there isn't even wide spread agreement on what %UK law eminates from Brussels let alone looking further back.


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## frogwoman (May 13, 2015)

The thing is the anti EU wing of the tory party really are swivel eyed loons. The tories will tear themselves to pieces over this.


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## mauvais (May 13, 2015)

gosub said:


> I did n't say EU couldn't influence EU matters, but EU members have to abide by a common approach to global agreements.   Though if you want to bring up vetoes, most of them have gone, replaced by majority rule, and Cameron's "heroic veto" didn't stop ALL other states adopting the measures he opposed.
> 
> Cameron will come back with "associate membership" (that all non EUro members will be offered) try to sell it as the great victory, when that is the path closest to government by Fax.


How does this common approach to global agreements equate to no voice though? It amounts to an aggregate rather than independent voice, I agree, but it still appears to a common approach that was the result of member decisions, rather than decided upon by some other central policymaker. Maybe I'm naive & totally wrong but I'd like to see it. As for veto, I don't mean literal Security Council style stuff, I mean using that independent voice to say, 'we will be an intolerably large pain in your arse if you don't do our bidding'.

This is along the lines of what I mean about the arms length approach. You can accuse the EU of anti-democratic _practice_, like repeatedly re-serving negatively voted choices until the 'right' answer is finally selected, but it seems harder to accuse it of anti-democratic _structure_. Democratic results that you don't like are still democratic, and if your national representation can't be bothered or engaged enough to form meaningful alliances, or even simply turn up and vote, then with the exception of those who want to either exit or bring down the house, it's a bit rich to complain.


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## Idaho (May 13, 2015)

An early referendum would be the best chance for Cameron to get a "stay", but if they do the usual political fixing and stitch up that a referendum win requires, it will create a civil war within the party and bring down the government any how.


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## gosub (May 13, 2015)

mauvais The democratic structures (EU Parliament) aren't there really to drive things.  Good job too, you end up with the gad flies like Le Pen and farage spouting rather than anything else. EU Commisson do drive things though to call Juncker 'democratically elected' is a woeful distortion.


Back to the global vs EU.   i remember one,pissed me off at the time, but turns out sort of example you want.   Couple of months ago heard a couple of EUrophiles explaining how Switzerland wasn't in the EU so had no option but to implement EU banking regulation without input, much to their detriment.  Much as you are saying Norway has that problem.	Completely ignored the Basel accords which over-arch the EU legislation, and I don't see how you'd stop Switerland putting out a seat for itself at that table


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## weltweit (May 13, 2015)

brogdale said:


> You sound as though you own a trans-national company!


Pretty much every employer I have had relied on selling their goods across the European Union and needed to in order to get economies of scale. I like free movement of goods AND people.


SpackleFrog said:


> Why? Do you export a lot of goods to European markets?  ..


I have exported to the continent yes. A lot of jobs depend on free access to the larger EU.


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## ViolentPanda (May 13, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I hate the EU.
> 
> I'm looking forward to watching the tories destroy themselves too.



I dislike the EU, but I worry that given the political system within which EU members exist (neoliberalism) that the exit of a nation-state may have an adverse effect on elements of the populace of that nation-state. The EU as a power bloc has (mostly despite itself) preserved a few protections through HR legislation, and there's absolutely no guarantee that any exiting govt will legislate to continue those protections - in fact we already know that the Tories will be resiling either from the Human Rights Act _in toto_ and replacing it with some nebuolous "bill of rights", or slicing out any provisions that they believe affect capitalism's "right" to maximally exploit.


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## ViolentPanda (May 13, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Seems quite a strong emotion to have about something that is basically a trade block.



If it were only a trade bloc, life would be much simpler. Thatcher and Major both, though, signed up to provisions that increased the ambit beyond trade.


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## ViolentPanda (May 13, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> A SAFE PAIR OF HANDS WITH DAVID CAMERON DEFENDING OUR INTERESTS IN EUROPE OR THE CHAOS OF NIGEL FARAGE , EXTREMISTS AND NO WAY TO DEFEND OUR BORDERS AGAINST THE SCOTTISH THREAT



TBF, the latter sounds like much more *fun* than the former. I like the idea of David Cameron as a lone sentinel on the border, hiding every time he sees a flash of plaid on the horizon, the light glinting off of his sweaty pink hamface.


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## steeplejack (May 13, 2015)

I'll be voting to come out as well, if this referendum happens. 

The EU is a bloated, undemocratic, neoliberal happy-clapping outfit these days. I am genuinely sad as ten-fifteen years ago I was a passionate pro-European.

I still am, but I am now vehemently anti-EU. Passionately European, passionately anti-EU.

I'd sooner eat my own eyeballs than vote UKIP. But being on the same side as Farage and other assorted racist crackpots on this issue is not an argument to vote "Yes".


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## redsquirrel (May 13, 2015)

Lo Siento. said:


> You'd expect that blue line to be heading upwards in a referendum campaign, I think. Amount of cash and fearmongering they'll throw at it...


Yeah, I think what that plot shows is that while people like to hate on the EU once the question of leaving it becomes something that could be real rather than just a hypothetical a lot of people answer the question differently.

Which is true to a lot of referendums really


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## mather (May 14, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, I think what that plot shows is that while people like to hate on the EU once the question of leaving it becomes something that could be real rather than just a hypothetical a lot of people answer the question differently.
> 
> Which is true to a lot of referendums really



I fear your right. Any ideas one how such a phenomenon can be overcome?


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## Lo Siento. (May 14, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah, I think what that plot shows is that while people like to hate on the EU once the question of leaving it becomes something that could be real rather than just a hypothetical a lot of people answer the question differently.
> 
> Which is true to a lot of referendums really


People are often risk averse in secret ballots. Voting booths are very lonely, fearful places for many.


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## prunus (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> I hate the EU.



Why? What's there to hate? Genuinely confused.


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## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

Well proposing to bomb libya and griund troops to stop immigrants getting in, imposing austerity beyond camerons wildest dreams in greece and removing elected governments to do so in italy, the unelected unaccountable bureaucrats that control it...thats just for a start. We need to get out and its embarrassing that the left has entirely abandoned this terrain to ukip and the tory right.


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## mather (May 14, 2015)

prunus said:


> Why? What's there to hate? Genuinely confused.



Name me one thing about the EU thats not to hate.


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## Artaxerxes (May 14, 2015)

mather said:


> Name me one thing about the EU thats not to hate.



Free movement of Cheese


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## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

mather said:


> Name me one thing about the EU thats not to hate.


The free movement of people.
The free movement of goods and services.
The Union of Germany France and Britain.


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## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> The free movement of people.
> The free movement of goods and services.
> The Union of Germany France and Britain.



Strangely this principle of the free movement of the people doesnt seem to extend to the people the EU is expending vast sums to keep out.


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## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Strangely this principle of the free movement of the people doesnt seem to extend to the people the EU is expending vast sums to keep out.


Don't you think it would be a bit ambitious of the EU to think it could solve the whole world's problems when there are plenty of problems within the EU itself it hasn't solved?


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## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

Its embarrassing that the left is reduced to defending why there should be an unaccountable, pro business, anti immigrant, anti worker bureaucracy being the final arbiter of policy in member states simply because of the lunacy of farage and the tory right.


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## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Don't you think it would be a bit ambitious of the EU to think it could solve the whole world's problems when there are plenty of problems within the EU itself it hasn't solved?



Problems which the EU itself has created. Because the best way of adsressing 'problems in the EU itself it hasnt solved' is through militarisation, austerity and war obvs


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## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

We didnt fucking elect these people! Whatever you think of the tories at least they have the mandate of a fraction of the electorate. Those running the EU and imposing austerity in have no such mandate yet we're meant to believe that's OK!


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## SpackleFrog (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> If the UK failed to maintain a set of national legislation that put into effect the requisites of the European Convention on Human Rights, a fundamental membership obligation, what do you suppose would happen? I don't know either, but I don't imagine it'd be straightforward.
> 
> And maybe you're not looking for that, but I'm not sure how you expect these elements to practically improve if we exit either. Are the left going to rise up from the grave any time soon?



The UK doesn't have legislation that makes the ECHR law. The Human Rights Act only came in 2000 under New Labour (who promptly suspended bits of it so they could detain people without trial).

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU either.


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Nonetheless even that has deep complexities - I'm no economist but on the face of it, the EU brought boom as well as bust to Ireland, for example, and the crisis that brought it all down was/is one of simply beyond the Eurozone, and so what would have happened to these countries without integration?


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

Most of that amounts to pedantry.

The HRA is an attempt to domestically implement the ECHR to avoid having to send cases to Europe. Absence or partial absence of it wouldn't breach the obligations of the ECHR, but a contrary replacement obviously would.

The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU in so far as it's an obligation of being part of the Council of Europe instead, but you would struggle to shrug off either of those without exiting the EU.

As for the facepalm regarding a tiny piece of what I wrote, you could at least elaborate.


----------



## hot air baboon (May 14, 2015)

....this old platitude about nation states being _"...too small..."_ to cope with the problems of the 21st century basically means too democratically accountable to their electorates...


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> The UK doesn't have legislation that makes the ECHR law. The Human Rights Act only came in 2000 under New Labour (who promptly suspended bits of it so they could detain people without trial).
> 
> The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU either.



Yeah yeah but do you want nigel farage as prime minister? What about free movements of goods and services you tory bastard?


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah yeah but do you want nigel farage as prime minister? What about free movements of goods and services you tory bastard?



I confess. I love Nige. #Nige4PM


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Most of that amounts to pedantry.
> 
> The HRA is an attempt to domestically implement the ECHR to avoid having to send cases to Europe. Absence or partial absence of it wouldn't breach the obligations of the ECHR, but a contrary replacement obviously would.
> 
> ...



It's not pedantry! You're talking total shite on the basis of no knowledge at all, I'm trying to help you!

If you don't understand why pointing to Ireland and saying "look how the EU helped them" requires a facepalm then you're a muppet.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 14, 2015)

hot air baboon said:


> ....this old platitude about nation states being _"...too small..."_ to cope with the problems of the 21st century basically means too democratically accountable to their electorates...



I'm happy to accept that equivalence. It reinforces the appeal of supranationalism, as far as I am concerned.


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's not pedantry! You're talking total shite on the basis of no knowledge at all, I'm trying to help you!
> 
> If you don't understand why pointing to Ireland and saying "look how the EU helped them" requires a facepalm then you're a muppet.



Yeah but if we leave the EU we'll have no human rights


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's not pedantry! You're talking total shite on the basis of no knowledge at all, I'm trying to help you!


And all the while missing the point that maintaining workable EU membership obliges the UK to at least pretend to tread water on civil liberties, in the face of decades of wilful Labour & Tory erosion that outpaces the EU's own illiberalism.



SpackleFrog said:


> If you don't understand why pointing to Ireland and saying "look how the EU helped them" requires a facepalm then you're a muppet.


I never said it helped them overall. The rapid growth in the 1990s appears largely attributable to EU membership, and even the cascade of direct EU funding - ever driven a car in Ireland? Hence boom, even if not the one you or I would like. Then the over expansion and the rest of the EU economic disaster undoubtedly reversed it faster than it came, hence bust, but if you're going to compare apples, you need to know what the alternate reality of an independent Irish economy would have looked like, or what the world economy would have looked like without any Eurozone debt crisis at all because there was no Eurozone. By that point we might as well just pen sci-fi novels instead.


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU in so far as it's an obligation of being part of the Council of Europe instead, but you would struggle to shrug off either of those without exiting the EU.



Leaving the EU doesn't necessarily imply leaving the Council of Europe.


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> And all the while missing the point that maintaining workable EU membership obliges the UK to at least pretend to tread water on civil liberties, in the face of decades of wilful Labour & Tory erosion that outpaces the EU's own illiberalism.



NO IT DOESN'T. NO ONE IS PRETENDING ANYTHING EXCEPT MUPPET LIBERALS LIKE YOU ARRRRGH THE RAGE


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

Those fantastic EU civil liberties that are working so well for muslims in france.


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Leaving the EU doesn't necessarily imply leaving the Council of Europe.


I know. I'm talking about the exact opposite.

From the top. Cameron, an authoritarian, would apparently like to dismantle the Human Rights Act - in favour of what, it's unclear - and obviously not just to delegate it back to the EU. That can't, in practice, be done without leaving the Council of Europe, which can't be done without leaving the EU. Hence, albeit in a hopeless dystopian fashion, EU membership currently thwarts him.

Obviously if we had a blank canvas to work with, support on this basis would be a ridiculous idea, but the prospect for a domestically-driven improvement to civil liberties is thoroughly bleak.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 14, 2015)

I'll miss all the barmy brussels stories about straight bannanas


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah but if we leave the EU we'll have no human rights


If the UK leaves the EU, one level of (limited) protection against abuses by bosses and state authorities will be removed, yes. 

And with these fuckers in power at the moment (and Blair before them, too), that is not nothing, imo.


----------



## Wilf (May 14, 2015)

just possible that voting against will attract some 'anti-system/disaffected votes' as it has in other country's euro votes, though the outcome will be a significant IN victory.  If it does shape up like that I'd vote OUT for the lols, even if it did put me in with the eye swivellers. It would be my 1/60000000th portion of democracy.


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> I'll miss all the barmy brussels stories about straight bannanas


On another note, if you look at this propaganda piece - and I have to add that one of my life rules is to never trust a URL with a hyphen it - there's some great stuff under 'Myths'.

My favourite: "*MYTH: EU plans to force UK to liquefy corpses and pour them down the drain"*


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> On another note, if you look at this propaganda piece - and I have to add that one of my life rules is to never trust a URL with a hyphen it - there's some great stuff under 'Myths'.
> 
> My favourite: "*MYTH: EU plans to force UK to liquefy corpses and pour them down the drain"*



 

Thing is tho it is possible to attack the eu from the left without buying into these ukip/tory back-bench myths.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Thing is tho it is possible to attack the eu from the left without buying into these ukip/tory back-bench myths.


Yes it is. It is also possible to appreciate certain benefits from the eu as a bulwark against the worst excesses of the UK's Westminster govt from the left, while still acknowledging all the EU's drawbacks.


----------



## 8ball (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Thing is tho it is possible to attack the eu from the left without buying into these ukip/tory back-bench myths.


 
I share your Eurosceptic leanings <mostly on account of the democratic deficit and total lack of accountability they embody> but I feel uneasy about dropping out while the Tories hold sway.


----------



## mather (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> The free movement of people.



Is this beneficial though? What we see happening across the EU is a never ending revolving door of immigration and emigration as ruling elites across the continent force people into a race to the bottom with regards to wages and working conditions. Migrant labour also tends to be non-unionised, which suits the current economic orthodoxy of the EU elite's very well. Unless your one of those super-rich global jet setter types, the free movement of peoples is nothing more than a cynical ploy that preys upon the desperation and hopes of working class emigrants/immigrants to weaken any form of organisation by workers. I don't indulge in immigrant bashing and I despise those who single out and blame immigrants for our problems but I am also not naive enough to be fooled into thinking that the EU's policy regarding the free movement of peoples is motivated by anything other than the greed and self-interest of our political and economic elites.



weltweit said:


> The free movement of goods and services.



I'm a communist, why on earth do you think I would somehow be in favour of free trade? It is a proven fact that when you have free trade and free trade agreements, unemployment rises, wages stagnate or decrease and the standard of living across all metrics falls dramatically. Again, unless your part of the economic or political elite, why should anyone in their right mind be in favour of free trade and economic liberalisation when there is solid evidence that such policies only make working class people worse off than they already are?



weltweit said:


> The Union of Germany France and Britain.



I don't want us to have a union with either of those two countries.


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Thing is tho it is possible to attack the eu from the left without buying into these ukip/tory back-bench myths.


Of course it is, and we should. But until the left is likely to win sweeping victories of its own, and its failure to compromise on absolutes and embrace difficult alliances is partly why we're in this mess, I'm going to feel alright tentatively and pragmatically siding with whichever horrible bastard might deliver the lesser kicking on the things I care about. At least then I'll have something to rail against with the original complaint, rather than a massive retrograde step into a vacuum.

I realise that I'm pretty much channelling some third rate, third way Mandelson-politic who-needs-values as I write this, but fuck me, haven't I lost enough times already?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 14, 2015)

To everyone shouting 'liberal muppet' here, I would ask this:

If Britain leaves the EU, will the employment rights currently protected by EU-level laws rather than national laws be replaced by this govt with a set of employment rights that are:

a) more generous to workers than the current rules;

b) about the same as the current rules; or

c) less generous to workers than the current rules?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> To everyone shouting 'liberal muppet' here, I would ask this:
> 
> If Britain leaves the EU, will the employment rights currently protected by EU-level laws rather than national laws be replaced by this govt with a set of employment rights that are:
> 
> ...


or d) left alone and not replaced?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

mather said:


> I don't want us to have a union with either of those two countries.


you sorry little englander.

e2a: this is in relation to mather's declaration against a union with france and germany and nothing to do with his opinion on the eu


----------



## mather (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you sorry little englander.



fuck off!


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 14, 2015)

By the way, the EU does not impose austerity on basket case nations like Greece. The ECB, the IMF and creditor nations are the ones to impose demands. There's no prospect of the UK leaving the IMF or becoming a stakeholder in the ECB; we will continue, presumably, to pursue our interests in Greek debt whatever our membership of the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

mather said:


> fuck off!


it's always good to see how well you're able to display the thinking behind your declarations. so much for your internationalism, what a shame.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> or d) left alone and not replaced?


That's covered by b) - transferred en masse with few changes. They won't be 'left alone'  - eu law will be taken away, and a decision will need to be made as to what bits are incorporated into UK law.

Do you think this is likely?

What do you think this man would want?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's covered by b) - transferred en masse with few changes.
> 
> Do you think this is likely?
> 
> What do you think this man would want?


you were talking about what the government would REPLACE the legislation with; i'm saying it is possible they would maintain it and not replace it.


----------



## mather (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's always good to see how well you're able to display the thinking behind your declarations. so much for your internationalism, what a shame.



As if your contribution is anything to be proud of. I'm gonna put you on ignore as a cunt like you is not worth my time!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you were talking about what the government would REPLACE the legislation with; i'm saying it is possible they would maintain it and not replace it.


I'm not sure you understand the difference between national laws and eu laws, tbh. They could transfer all eu laws over en masse, but as I said before, this would take a decision, and it's covered by my option b).

Me, I'm going for option c). Evidence: everything this govt says and does.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

mather said:


> As if your contribution is anything to be proud of. I'm gonna put you on ignore as a cunt like you is not worth my time!


in the past communists supported the creation of larger unitary states e.g. germany. it's interesting you run away instead of saying WHY you oppose a union with france and germany.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not sure you understand the difference between national laws and eu laws, tbh. They could transfer all eu laws over en masse, but as I said before, this would take a decision, and it's covered by my option b).
> 
> Me, I'm going for option c). Evidence: everything this govt says and does.


once something's been incorporated into uk law it boots not from whence it originally emanated.


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's always good to see how well you're able to display the thinking behind your declarations. so much for your internationalism, what a shame.



So what's your "thinking" behind blithely misrepresenting mather's opposition to the EU? Not everyone who opposes the EU is a "sad little Englander". I certainly wasn't one the last time I checked.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 14, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> By the way, the EU does not impose austerity on basket case nations like Greece. The ECB, the IMF and creditor nations are the ones to impose demands. There's no prospect of the UK leaving the IMF or becoming a stakeholder in the ECB; we will continue, presumably, to pursue our interests in Greek debt whatever our membership of the EU.




tbf EU, IMF, ECB, World Bank, WTO are all cheeks of the same arse.


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

*double post*


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> So what's your "thinking" behind blithely misrepresenting mather's opposition to the EU? Not everyone who opposes the EU is a "sad little Englander". I certainly wasn't one the last time I checked.


no, i was saying he's a sad little englander for saying, without specifying reasons, that he's opposed to a union with france and germany. you'd find this out if you read my posts. i said NOTHING about the eu.


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i was saying he's a sad little englander for saying, without specifying reasons, that he's opposed to a union with france and germany.



I dunno, why _would_ a communist have a problem with a neo-liberal union between bourgeois nation-states?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> I dunno, why _would_ a communist have a problem with a neo-liberal union between bourgeois nation-states?


you'd best ask one. but i can conceive of conditions in which many people - perhaps even mather - might support a union of the three countries.


----------



## ska invita (May 14, 2015)

Lo Siento. said:


> The Tories and their paymasters want to stay in and probably (rightly) figure that it's best to have this referendum just after they've won an election.





paolo said:


> Is this early move an attempt to flush it out of the way, and more likely to get a 'Stay' vote? Or something else?


The timing of the poll seems to be to fit in with other European leaders wishes (particularly in France and Germany)


> "
> Soon after the British election results were known, French President Francois Hollande invited David Cameron to Paris to talk, he said, about the EU, among other things.
> 
> France will hope to persuade David Cameron that he does not need treaty change to re-shape Britain's relationship with the EU.
> ...





frogwoman said:


> VOTE YES FOR CHAOS! NIGEL FARAGE! AND EXTREMISM!


lots of sympathy with that- if it wasnt for the fact we'd lose out on the relatively open borders of the EU id likely vote to leave it, but I really love that freedom (even though i've never really taken advantage of it)


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> you'd best ask one.



Well you had a chance to do so, but instead you chose to call them names. And all for what I might ask?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Well you had a chance to do so, but instead you chose to call them names. And all for what I might ask?


in furtherance of relief from work-related ennui.


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> in furtherance of relief from work-related ennui.



In other words, you choose to shit up threads because you're bored. And yet you have the brass neck to complain when others tell you to fuck off?

Here, let me add to the chorus: Fuck off!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> In other words, you choose to shit up threads because you're bored. And yet you have the brass neck to complain when others tell you to fuck off?
> 
> Here, let me add to the chorus: Fuck off!


that's always you tho, joining the chorus and never singing a solo. you're saying you've never posted here while bored?


----------



## ska invita (May 14, 2015)

Not only do UK 'business leaders' want to say in, but the US wants the UK to stay in too (or so ive read somewhere) - the UK is the US's key foothold in the EU


----------



## Pickman's model (May 14, 2015)

ska invita said:


> Not only do UK 'business leaders' want to say in, but the US wants the UK to stay in too (or so ive read somewhere) - the UK is the US's key foothold in the EU


yeh it's been a consistent theme from america for some time now


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

mather said:


> Is this beneficial though? What we see happening across the EU is a never ending revolving door of immigration and emigration as ruling elites across the continent force people into a race to the bottom with regards to wages and working conditions. Migrant labour also tends to be non-unionised, which suits the current economic orthodoxy of the EU elite's very well. Unless your one of those super-rich global jet setter types, the free movement of peoples is nothing more than a cynical ploy that preys upon the desperation and hopes of working class emigrants/immigrants to weaken any form of organisation by workers. I don't indulge in immigrant bashing and I despise those who single out and blame immigrants for our problems but I am also not naive enough to be fooled into thinking that the EU's policy regarding the free movement of peoples is motivated by anything other than the greed and self-interest of our political and economic elites.


You say you don't bash immigrants, ironic then that in your anti EU stance you will be voting with exactly these people, immigrant bashers. 



mather said:


> I'm a communist, why on earth do you think I would somehow be in favour of free trade? It is a proven fact that when you have free trade and free trade agreements, unemployment rises, wages stagnate or decrease and the standard of living across all metrics falls dramatically. Again, unless your part of the economic or political elite, why should anyone in their right mind be in favour of free trade and economic liberalisation when there is solid evidence that such policies only make working class people worse off than they already are?


I suppose you would have been against the British trading with empire then as that was also dealings with an extended market place. Trade isn't "free" but it is without tariffs which means we have access to continental markets and they have access to ours.

I can imagine you living in Texas and bemoaning the fact that people from North Carolina can do business in Texas. We were better off before etc .. 



mather said:


> I don't want us to have a union with either of those two countries.


Why not? what could you possibly have against the French or Germans?
I much prefer a level of union to what went before.
European nations have been warmaking amongst themselves since time immemorial. Were the EU to fail we would be heading back in that direction.


----------



## purves grundy (May 14, 2015)

mather said:


> Unless your one of those super-rich global jet setter types, the free movement of peoples...


Super-rich like Stanley Edwards ?  

Bollocks to accidents of birth determining where you're gonna live and work, to borders, passports and all that backwards shit.


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

The eu is on the same side as the immigrant basher types and has created the conditions for such discourse to be acceptable. How can they say they're pro immigrant when they're trying to bomb people escaping from warzones and treating them as garbage. I also hate borders and passports and am an internationalist that's why i'm against the EU.


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

And it doesnt stop different EU citizens being discriminated look at them desperately trying to justify creating a different immigration policy to Romanians and Bulgarians in the loving caring social justice wonderland that is the core EU states.


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

It's not going to prevent a future war in europe, it cant even prevent an authoritarian government like hungary's doing what it wants, yet strangely they're quite happy to throw their weight around countries not complying in the slightest and mildest way with eu austerity policies.


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> The eu is on the same side as the immigrant basher types and has created the conditions for such discourse to be acceptable. How can they say they're pro immigrant when they're trying to bomb people escaping from warzones and treating them as garbage. I also hate borders and passports and am an internationalist that's why i'm against the EU.


The prime immigrant bashers are people like UKIP whose followers will be voting to leave the EU, anyone also voting to leave for different reasons will have to hold their noses to vote with them.


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> And it doesnt stop different EU citizens being discriminated look at them desperately trying to justify creating a different immigration policy to Romanians and Bulgarians in the loving caring social justice wonderland that is the core EU states.


Integration of countries into the EU is difficult and costly, when east and west Germany unified the costs were born for many years before the east was raised to a reasonable standard of living. I don't have a problem with phased introduction of countries into the EU, not doing so could otherwise destabilise existing members.


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> The prime immigrant bashers are people like UKIP whose followers will be voting to leave the EU, anyone also voting to leave for different reasons will have to hold their noses to vote with them.



Farage isnt the one whos forcing people to drown in the sea and forcing them into detention centres or squalid shanty towns.


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Farage isnt the one whos forcing people to drown in the sea and forcing them into detention centres or squalid shanty towns.


Farage isn't going to welcome these people into the UK.

I don't think the current EU stance wrt people crossing the med to get to Europe is good, it was better when they had more patrols and picked people up before their boats got into trouble. And I think they are going to go back to that as the spectre of thousands drowning on a weekly bases demands action.

Do you have a solution to it frogwoman?


----------



## purves grundy (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> And it doesnt stop different EU citizens being discriminated look at them desperately trying to justify creating a different immigration policy to Romanians and Bulgarians in the loving caring social justice wonderland that is the core EU states.


Who are the 'they' that's pushing this - the Commission or certain Member States?

Not that I'd ever maintain Juncker leads a major progressive force, mind.


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Farage isnt the one whos forcing people to drown in the sea


Who is?


----------



## Flavour (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Who is?



in the most literal sense nobody is physically forcing people to drown, however, the other EU nation states withdrawing from the Italy-led but internationally-funded operation to save migrants at the beginning of the year has created conditions in which many migrants have drowned. Italy has basically been left to deal with it by itself at a time of imposed EU austerity! quite bizarre really.


----------



## brogdale (May 14, 2015)

Flavour said:


> in the most literal sense nobody is physically forcing people to drown, however, the other EU nation states withdrawing from the Italy-led but internationally-funded operation to save migrants at the beginning of the year has created conditions in which many migrants have drowned. Italy has basically been left to deal with it by itself at a time of imposed EU austerity! quite bizarre really.


Yep, and remember that any migratory move is the result of push factors, as well as pull. If I lived in post Cameron/Sarkozy Libya I think I'd be feeling the push alright.


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

EU demanded moldova introduce austerity and privatisation policies before they'd let them in. Austerity in fucking moldova.





weltweit said:


> Farage isn't going to welcome these people into the UK.
> 
> I don't think the current EU stance wrt people crossing the med to get to Europe is good, it was better when they had more patrols and picked people up before their boats got into trouble. And I think they are going to go back to that as the spectre of thousands drowning on a weekly bases demands action.
> 
> Do you have a solution to it frogwoman?



I do yeah. put an arms embargo on the entire middle eastern region, stop supplying weapons and other assistance to regimes like saudi arabia, egypt and israel who cause instability throughout the region and make peoples lives so shit they'll do anything to get away, stop trying to put armed troops to smash 'people trafficking networks', stop demanding impoverished countries immiserate their local populations even worse in order to get into the eu, treat immigration from within and outside the eu equally and let people work properly so they're not forced to rely on gangmasters and other shitwork. make the eu commission a democratic body with elections instead of an unaccountable faceless bureaucracy. Stop forcing repeated referendums on people until they give you the 'right' result. Stop forcing austerity and neoliberalism on europe while doing shit all to stop the far right or the conditions breeding it.

This will never happen tho due to the nature of the EU itself so we should just leave.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

hot air baboon said:


> ....this old platitude about nation states being _"...too small..."_ to cope with the problems of the 21st century basically means too democratically accountable to their electorates...



It also means "too small to exert leverage on supra-national organisations".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> I confess. I love Nige. #Nige4PM



You love NF cock!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> NO IT DOESN'T. NO ONE IS PRETENDING ANYTHING EXCEPT MUPPET LIBERALS LIKE YOU ARRRRGH THE RAGE



Calm down.
Just think of Nigel sashaying toward you, tray of beers in one hand, and a gala variety of bar snacks in the other.

While naked.


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

Flavour said:


> in the most literal sense nobody is physically forcing people to drown, however, the other EU nation states withdrawing from the Italy-led but internationally-funded operation to save migrants at the beginning of the year has created conditions in which many migrants have drowned. Italy has basically been left to deal with it by itself at a time of imposed EU austerity! quite bizarre really.



Why do you hate democracy?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What do you think this man would want?



A series of resounding slaps to the back of his shiny pate?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> So what's your "thinking" behind blithely misrepresenting mather's opposition to the EU? Not everyone who opposes the EU is a "sad little Englander". I certainly wasn't one the last time I checked.



He said "sad little Englander" in reference to mather's declaration that they wanted no sort of union with either France or Germany. Nowt to do with mather's opposition to the EU.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> tbf EU, IMF, ECB, World Bank, WTO are all cheeks of the same arse.



That's one arse I never wish to gaze upon!


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> He said "sad little Englander" in reference to mather's declaration that they wanted no sort of union with either France or Germany. Nowt to do with mather's opposition to the EU.



And just what kind of union between said countries do you think is most likely to actually happen within the foreseeable future? I doubt it's going to be for the benefit of the working class of any country!


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

Flavour said:


> in the most literal sense nobody is physically forcing people to drown, however, the other EU nation states withdrawing from the Italy-led but internationally-funded operation to save migrants at the beginning of the year has created conditions in which many migrants have drowned. Italy has basically been left to deal with it by itself at a time of imposed EU austerity! quite bizarre really.


Indeed. I just don't quite understand how it's a situation to be ameliorated by exiting or otherwise punishing the EU. Europe will still presumably exist, will still be attractive to migrants & traffickers, the UK and the rest of NATO will still accelerate or at best fail to remove the conditions that cause migration, and there'll just be even less political will and fewer resources to operate Mediterranean SAR.


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> .. I do yeah. put an arms embargo on the entire middle eastern region, stop supplying weapons and other assistance to regimes like saudi arabia, egypt and israel who cause instability throughout the region and make peoples lives so shit they'll do anything to get away, stop trying to put armed troops to smash 'people trafficking networks', stop demanding impoverished countries immiserate their local populations even worse in order to get into the eu, treat immigration from within and outside the eu equally and let people work properly so they're not forced to rely on gangmasters and other shitwork. make the eu commission a democratic body with elections instead of an unaccountable faceless bureaucracy. Stop forcing repeated referendums on people until they give you the 'right' result. Stop forcing austerity and neoliberalism on europe while doing shit all to stop the far right or the conditions breeding it.
> 
> This will never happen tho due to the nature of the EU itself so we should just leave.



I was only asking if you had a solution to the migrants issue in the med, not the whole thing. But you can't be in favour of people trafficking frogwoman, these poor people are fleeced financially and then put in jeopardy on the open sea in the flimsiest of boats. Surely the people traffickers are scum?

How would Britain leaving the EU help alleviate any of the problems you outline above?


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> I was only asking if you had a solution to the migrants issue in the med, not the whole thing. But you can't be in favour of people trafficking frogwoman, these poor people are fleeced financially and then put in jeopardy on the open sea in the flimsiest of boats. Surely the people traffickers are scum?
> 
> How would Britain leaving the EU help alleviate any of the problems you outline above?



Of course im not in favour of people trafficking but is bombing country to stop people leaving a solution to that issue?


----------



## frogwoman (May 14, 2015)

it wouldnt be a solution. but us remaining in the eu isnt exactly a solution either when our govt under the tories and, previously blair, has actually driven a load of this stuff through.


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## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> And just what kind of union between said countries do you think is most likely to actually happen within the foreseeable future? I doubt it's going to be for the benefit of the working class of any country!



You miss the point. You called him out on a point, and you did so inaccurately. Shrieking speculative questions at me for drawing your attention to your inaccuracy is irrelevant.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Indeed. I just don't quite understand how it's a situation to be ameliorated by exiting or otherwise punishing the EU. Europe will still presumably exist, will still be attractive to migrants & traffickers, the UK and the rest of NATO will still accelerate or at best fail to remove the conditions that cause migration, and there'll just be even less political will and fewer resources to operate Mediterranean SAR.



Surely the next "rational" move after leaving the EU would be to withdraw from NATO?
Then we can sit on our septic isle in pristine isolation while the world falls down around us.

Leaving the EU won't solve the problems frogwoman has posted about. It'll just mean attachment to another neoliberal trading bloc that will seek social influence and control in much the same way as the EU does. The only way to destroy such problems is to dismantle the politics and ideology that drives them.


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You miss the point. You called him out on a point, and you did so inaccurately. Shrieking speculative questions at me for drawing your attention to your inaccuracy is irrelevant.



PM had already pointed out my misstep (which I made because in the first place he quoted the whole of mather's post), so what was your point again?


----------



## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surely the next "rational" move after leaving the EU would be to withdraw from NATO?
> Then we can sit on our septic isle in pristine isolation while the world falls down around us.


Leaving NATO and doing something more intelligent, or indeed just less, I could get more behind, although that's probably not what you had in mind.



ViolentPanda said:


> Leaving the EU won't solve the problems frogwoman has posted about. It'll just mean attachment to another neoliberal trading bloc that will seek social influence and control in much the same way as the EU does. The only way to destroy such problems is to dismantle the politics and ideology that drives them.


Agreed. I can see the point, and again it goes to blank canvas politics; if you want a purely principled stand, a 'no' vote is probably the right choice, but it's still going to be hard to stand up for your other principles once you've just shot both your feet off. It's a miserable context to live in by anyone's judgement but I don't see the merit in making it more so without an apparent return on it. If a British exit killed off the EU and was a catalyst for change, maybe, but I just don't see it. In fact it seems vanishingly unlikely.


----------



## Stay Beautiful (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Anyone who wants to leave can go live in Switzerland and leave the UK to its chosen path within the EU.



You mean Heath, Thatcher and Major's chosen paths? We got *one* say on it over the years and that was after Heath had already taken us in. It's a load of crud. Time to go.


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

Stay Beautiful said:


> You mean Heath, Thatcher and Major's chosen paths? We got *one* say on it over the years and that was after Heath had already taken us in. It's a load of crud. Time to go.


Go where?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

NoXion said:


> PM had already pointed out my misstep (which I made because in the first place he quoted the whole of mather's post), so what was your point again?



Quite obviously, as previously stated, the one that you missed.


----------



## Stay Beautiful (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Go where?



Out of it. We should join the ALBA instead. Red Ken was the forerunner!


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## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Go where?



Pristine isolation. Or some fuckwitted trans-atlantic alliance that'll see us as junior partner to Canada, Mexico and Belize.


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2015)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Out of it. We should join the ALBA instead. Red Ken was the forerunner!


I suppose we could always trade with New Zealand


----------



## NoXion (May 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quite obviously, as previously stated, the one that you missed.



You mean the point already made by PM which I addressed and which you repeated superfluously. Got it.


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## Flavour (May 14, 2015)

I think we'd find a slightly diminished US _political_ interest in the UK if we were out of the EU and therefore not able to be their mouthpiece, although it _corporate_ interest would certainly increase. Not a reason to stay in the EU by any means but as VP says a UK exit would certainly see American companies trying to take advantage of the economic panic.


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## hot air baboon (May 14, 2015)

mauvais said:


> If a British exit killed off the EU and was a catalyst for change, maybe, but I just don't see it. In fact it seems vanishingly unlikely.



.....I think the the euro technocracy are pretty concerned about exactly that issue....& that the hostility to the prospect of any Exits is that if a country bales out and doomsday _*doesn't*_ happen then it undermines the whole narrative of inevitability which is vital to keeping the public marching in step where they want them to go & soothing any nationalist misgivings as the "ever-closer-union" salami slicer glides back & forth....

...we know that when tested in the past that public opinion in alot of countries - France / Ireland etc - was a hell of a long way from them being the shiny-faced, good-liitle-europeans in contrast to which us Brits are supposed to be such a big disappointment to the grown-ups in Brussels....

.....as regards the merits or otherwise of isolation outside the club then I suppose you could compare Iceland doing their own thing and tarring & feathering their crooked banker/political class & telling their international creditor vultures that dinners been cancelled with Ireland's leaders bending over at the say-so of the troika...not sure who's the most fuckwitted out of those 2 options...


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## mauvais (May 14, 2015)

hot air baboon said:


> .....I think the the euro technocracy are pretty concerned about exactly that issue....& that the hostility to the prospect of any Exits is that if a country bales out and doomsday _*doesn't*_ happen then it undermines the whole narrative of inevitability which is vital to keeping the public marching in step where they want them to go & soothing any nationalist misgivings as the "ever-closer-union" salami slicer glides back & forth....


I _think _we're agreed on the following: whilst we're in, it's in the EU's interest to keep us there, as we do actually matter, but once we're out, it's in their interests that it's a disaster, lest we encourage the others and bring everyone the pain of multiple exits or total collapse, rather than just one. Not that unreasonable from a union perspective.



hot air baboon said:


> .....as regards the merits or otherwise of isolation outside the club then I suppose you could compare Iceland doing their own thing and tarring & feathering their crooked banker/political class & telling their international creditor vultures that dinners been cancelled with Ireland's leaders bending over at the say-so of the troika...not sure who's the most fuckwitted out of those 2 options...


I'm all for the Icelandic narrative but, and again not being an economist, it seems very well placed to have done what it's done. Energy independent with primary exports of aluminium, fish and metals/minerals is a bit of a better platform from which to go it alone than one of energy dependence, 80% services, a huge chunk of which are global financial, plus high level, movable manufacturing like aerospace & automotive. I'm all for rebalancing that too but I don't really want to have to go through a real life Mad Max boxset to achieve it.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

Iceland also has a population of 300,000. That's 1/60th of the UK. You can't always scale up and down with such things.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

Flavour said:


> I think we'd find a slightly diminished US _political_ interest in the UK if we were out of the EU .


Perhaps, but remember that the right-wing tories who advocate leaving the EU are almost as one in their Atlanticism. They want the UK to be more like the US. They want fewer worker rights. They want hire and fire, cowtow to your bosses, and fuck you if you fall by the wayside. 

I would love the UK to leave the EU ( and NATO - please leave NATO) to pursue socialist policies that would be blocked by EU law. But that's not where we're at. There is zero prospect that this would happen. And you can't just ignore the things that _are_ likely to happen with a post-EU tory/new labour administration.


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## Cid (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Iceland also has a population of 300,000. That's 1/60th of the UK. You can't always scale up and down with such things.



The UK has a population of 64 million, so 1/215th or so. Not that it affects your overall point.


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## mather (May 15, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Its embarrassing that the left is reduced to defending why there should be an unaccountable, pro business, anti immigrant, anti worker bureaucracy being the final arbiter of policy in member states simply because of the lunacy of farage and the tory right.



Tell me about it. It's depressing to see so many people who are otherwise politically progressive fall for this line of thinking on the question of the EU. However, after reading all of their posts I cannot get angry at this for the simple reason that so many people have come to such a conclusion based on their own fears and despair, especially on the point that some have made here that the EU acts as some sort of counterweight to the ravages of our own Tory government. While I disagree strongly on that point it is one that cannot be dismissed or ignored. We live in a time when the organisation of the working class is at it's lowest and the ruling class are on the offensive, while we struggle to even go on the defensive. The left outside the Labour Party is barely non-existent and continues to waste time on their own pet projects as it seems they have given up on trying to engage with the working class in any meaningful way. If this the situation we find ourselves in now, is it any surprise that such despair has taken such a strong hold on people?


----------



## mather (May 15, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Leaving the EU doesn't necessarily imply leaving the Council of Europe.



Your right, it doesn't. Saying that I would want Britain to leave the Council of Europe as it part of the same ruling class project to unite Europe under their own terms. I oppose all European unity projects under capitalism.

Before anyone accuses me of being an unreconstructed little Englander Eurosceptic or a left-wing Nigel Farage, I would like to point out that I oppose all diplomatic and geo-strategic entanglements that tie us to current global political setup led by the US and EU. For me it is not a simple choice of either the EU or Atlanticism, I oppose both in equal measure. I am opposed British membership of the World Bank, WTO, IMF, NATO etc... I am opposed to all attempts (such as TTIP) to circumvent democratic politics by taking ever more power away from voters and placing such power in the hands of global institutions and multinational corporations. I am opposed all those alliances which bind us to wage a never ending series of wars against weak and poor defenceless countries (Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine etc...) 

Of course I would love to see global brotherhood of humankind as any internationalist would, but right now that is just not possible as capitalism is globally dominant. Until such a time as when that possibility exists the best we can do is to withdrawal from the current global setup and all the ills it brings with it.

Of course, if anyone has a different view as to how we can get out of this impasse then I'm all ears but so far no one has come up with anything that can offer us a third option, one that gives us an alternative to either isolation or remaining in the international scene and being a partner in crime along with all the other major capitalist powers.


----------



## mather (May 15, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> If it were only a trade bloc, life would be much simpler. Thatcher and Major both, though, signed up to provisions that increased the ambit beyond trade.



Which shows us that the Tories alleged 'opposition' to the EU is nothing more than cynical posturing. When the possibility of Brexit becomes a real thing, the Tories will line up with the rest of the British establishment and try every desperate trick to scare and fool voters into supporting our continued membership of the EU.


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## frogwoman (May 15, 2015)

mather said:


> Tell me about it. It's depressing to see so many people who are otherwise politically progressive fall for this line of thinking on the question of the EU. However, after reading all of their posts I cannot get angry at this for the simple reason that so many people have come to such a conclusion based on their own fears and despair, especially on the point that some have made here that the EU acts as some sort of counterweight to the ravages of our own Tory government. While I disagree strongly on that point it is one that cannot be dismissed or ignored. We live in a time when the organisation of the working class is at it's lowest and the ruling class are on the offensive, while we struggle to even go on the defensive. The left outside the Labour Party is barely non-existent and continues to waste time on their own pet projects as it seems they have given up on trying to engage with the working class in any meaningful way. If this the situation we find ourselves in now, is it any surprise that such despair has taken such a strong hold on people?



Yeah totally agree with that. I hate the EU and want it to break apart but i do have some worries about what will happen when we leave it. If you look at countries such as Sweden which have something approaching social democratic regimes they are increasingly introducing austerity and restricting the social democratic regime to narrow sections of the population (it doesn't really apply to immigrants at all). In Germany similar welfare policies are increasingly applied to the UK, albeit perhaps at a slower rate. But there is a sense in which the EU through some of its legislation and the court etc is thought to put a brake on austerity and the cruellest effects of neoliberalism. If we voted to leave the world would go batshit. I don't think the UK will vote to leave and there's nobody out there putting a progressive case for leaving other than a few tiny sects. I'm also very, very pessimistic tbh.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Perhaps, but remember that the right-wing tories who advocate leaving the EU are almost as one in their Atlanticism. They want the UK to be more like the US. They want fewer worker rights. They want hire and fire, cowtow to your bosses, and fuck you if you fall by the wayside.
> 
> I would love the UK to leave the EU ( and NATO - please leave NATO) to pursue socialist policies that would be blocked by EU law. But that's not where we're at. There is zero prospect that this would happen. And you can't just ignore the things that _are_ likely to happen with a post-EU tory/new labour administration.



Outside the EU there is at least (in theory) some chance that Neoliberal policies can be reversed by future governments. The utter lack of democratic accountability of the technocrats in Brussels is something that has to be challenged, whatever the immediate short-term consequences are (and inevitably those will involve an outright attack on working conditions and rights). It's the bigger picture that matters, and that requires reclaiming democracy.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 15, 2015)

chilango said:


> On a personal level I'm 100% in. I consider myself a European citizen, but admit Ive been bought off by the EU funding various European adventures of mine and having a partner and daughter from two further EU states makes "European" a nice hassle free label.
> 
> But politically "out" would be interesting.
> 
> ...



No2EU obviously! 

Or the CPB-ML: 'Putting two fingers up to the EU is a start, but only a start. There is work to be done.'

Or the NCP: 'No to the EU'.

Or the SLP: 'Withdrawal is the only way Britain can begin to regain control of its economy, sovereignty and political powers.'

So we're spoiled for choice.


Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## mauvais (May 15, 2015)

mather said:


> Your right, it doesn't. Saying that I would want Britain to leave the Council of Europe as it part of the same ruling class project to unite Europe under their own terms. I oppose all European unity projects under capitalism.
> 
> Before anyone accuses me of being an unreconstructed little Englander Eurosceptic or a left-wing Nigel Farage, I would like to point out that I oppose all diplomatic and geo-strategic entanglements that tie us to current global political setup led by the US and EU. For me it is not a simple choice of either the EU or Atlanticism, I oppose both in equal measure. I am opposed British membership of the World Bank, WTO, IMF, NATO etc... I am opposed to all attempts (such as TTIP) to circumvent democratic politics by taking ever more power away from voters and placing such power in the hands of global institutions and multinational corporations. I am opposed all those alliances which bind us to wage a never ending series of wars against weak and poor defenceless countries (Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine etc...)
> 
> Of course I would love to see global brotherhood of humankind as any internationalist would, but right now that is just not possible as capitalism is globally dominant. Until such a time as when that possibility exists the best we can do is to withdrawal from the current global setup and all the ills it brings with it.


Brushing aside what kind of personal politics this is or isn't, in the post before this you call it fear, but it's not just fear to point out that you're not offering a credible route. What's the point in pursuing fantasy absolutes when noone that matters - the majority you need - is coming with you?

If you fling open your front door and proclaim, "property is theft!", and all that happens is someone comes through that door, beats you up and takes all your food for the week, it's not even a moral victory is it, it's nothing other than a personal defeat. That's a small measure fear if you like, but a much bigger measure basic sense. So if you're rejecting the EU you'd better have a battle plan for what comes next, and it'd better be a plan in which at some point soon - if not immediately - you might be able to score some kind of victory. And not just the academic talking shop one of, _yay, we're out of the EU_, but the fully realised net one of, _yay, we're out of the EU and actually not everything's fucked._

IMO this pattern is why there's very little hope. Even the scaled-up monster of Labour couldn't manage to articulate a credible path to anything, or bring enough people along.


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## bi0boy (May 15, 2015)

Can't we just be like Denmark? In the EU, not in the Euro, no immigrant problem and less inequality than any other European country.


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## mauvais (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Outside the EU there is at least (in theory) some chance that Neoliberal policies can be reversed by future governments. The utter lack of democratic accountability of the technocrats in Brussels is something that has to be challenged, whatever the immediate short-term consequences are (and inevitably those will involve an outright attack on working conditions and rights). It's the bigger picture that matters, and that requires reclaiming democracy.


How? How are you going to reverse neoliberalism?

_If I just use the pin from this grenade to..._


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## Artaxerxes (May 15, 2015)

mather said:


> While I disagree strongly on that point it is one that cannot be dismissed or ignored. We live in a time when the organisation of the working class is at it's lowest and the ruling class are on the offensive, while we struggle to even go on the defensive. The left outside the Labour Party is barely non-existent and continues to waste time on their own pet projects as it seems they have given up on trying to engage with the working class in any meaningful way.



It occurs to me that the narrative has shifted very much from working class vs the rich to one of race and race tension, I feel that there has been a concentrated attempt to persuade the white working class of the country they are middle class or aspiring middle class.

Not sure if this is just me reaching or if I'm even half right here tbh


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## Louis MacNeice (May 15, 2015)

Is the EU pro capital (in both it's design and practice...what it's for and what it does)?

Would a UK exit from the EU damage the EU?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## gentlegreen (May 15, 2015)

Have I missed a "signature" feature in the forum software, or do you type that every single time you post ?

Are you seeking an ever-growing web presence ?

Cheers - Someone on the Internet.


----------



## NoXion (May 15, 2015)

gentlegreen said:


> Have I missed a "signature" feature in the forum software, or do you type that every single time you post ?
> 
> Are you seeking an ever-growing web presence ?
> 
> Cheers - Someone on the Internet.



Are you saying you've only just noticed that he does that?

No signatures on this forum.


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## gentlegreen (May 15, 2015)

NoXion said:


> Are you saying you've only just noticed that he does that?
> 
> No signatures on this forum.



Yes of course - and I'm sure he's been asked before.
I just found it particularly annoying - again.


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## Artaxerxes (May 15, 2015)

gentlegreen said:


> Have I missed a "signature" feature in the forum software, or do you type that every single time you post ?
> 
> Are you seeking an ever-growing web presence ?
> 
> Cheers - Someone on the Internet.



Its quite common, fuck knows why

Cheers - Someone who wanted to type another dozen words


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## NoXion (May 15, 2015)

I guess some people like to sign their missives. Don't see what the big deal is really.


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## mauvais (May 15, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Is the EU pro capital (in both it's design and practice...what it's for and what it does)?
> 
> Would a UK exit from the EU damage the EU?


Of course it's pro-capital, it revolves around the euro, whether it means to do so exclusively or not. Of course it would damage it. The perception alone, rather than any actual consequence, would significantly destabilise the euro, reducing confidence and thus investment and growth until normal service - that being stabilisation and no further prospects of exits - was eventually resumed. Years, I expect. If anyone wins it's the house though, so you can bet that those with the most capital would benefit from the volatility.

The real consequences would almost certainly damage the economic project for a long time too; at a basic level, the exit of a comparatively strong economy pushes the mean towards the many weak & emerging ones, at Germany's and a few others' expense. How much probably depends how much & how quickly they can reorganise; if they could reel in all the Euro treats (e.g. foreign car manufacturing, Airbus etc) out of the UK again, and amongst the chaos establish a competing financial capital to displace London, I suspect it wouldn't be as disastrous as it might have been.

None of that is to say that Britain would see a matching benefit; it's not a zero sum game.

The social project is more unpredictable; I suspect it would probably stall for a while, with many members using the opportunity to push for reform and a halt to ever-closer union, but ultimately if it doesn't collapse it would probably recover with time. It has a great deal of momentum and involuntary collapse would be extremely painful for all involved.

Cheers - Infuriating Liberal Muppet


----------



## coley (May 15, 2015)

Artaxerxes said:


> It occurs to me that the narrative has shifted very much from working class vs the rich to one of race and race tension, I feel that there has been a concentrated attempt to persuade the white working class of the country they are middle class or aspiring middle class.
> 
> Not sure if this is just me reaching or if I'm even half right here tbh


I think you are more than half right and I also think this tactic was partly responsible for Cameron getting his arse back into No10.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 15, 2015)

gentlegreen said:


> Have I missed a "signature" feature in the forum software, or do you type that every single time you post ?
> 
> *Are you seeking an ever-growing web presence ?*
> 
> Cheers - Someone on the Internet.



No; I sign my letters, pms and emails (both here and elsewhere) as well.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

mauvais said:


> How? How are you going to reverse neoliberalism?
> 
> _If I just use the pin from this grenade to..._



No policy, neoliberal or otherwise, is reversible without democracy. I've no idea what the second sentence means.


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## kebabking (May 15, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> ...Would a UK exit from the EU damage the EU?...



difficult question, probably with several contradictory answers.

the UK economy is worth one whole _seventh_ of all economic activity in the EU. the UK is one of one only two powers in the EU capable of lead-nation expeditionary warfare - and is arguably the most powerful of those two powers and becoming moreso - and the UK is one of only two nuclear weapons states within the EU, and the only one with a full counter-strike capability though the other has more warheads. its also one of only two UNSC P5 members in the EU so, certainly on the face of it, the UK leaving would significantly reduce the EU's political/military/diplomatic 'clout'.

in economic/trade terms, even if the UK left, lots of UK trade would still be with the EU, and therefore its place as a very significant trade bloc that countries/other trade blocs would want to do business with would remain.

as for the internal politics of the EU following a UK exit? fuck alone knows. the other 'less keen' states like Denmark might get their toes stamped on once their big brother has left the room, or they might be emboldened.. no idea.


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## mauvais (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> No policy, neoliberal or otherwise, is reversible without democracy. I've no idea what the second sentence means.


Yes, but can you explain to me how an EU exit will positively enable you to reverse neoliberal policy, rather than it delivering an academic but useless advantage?

Or failing that, how EU policy-based neoliberalism is the dominant influence on our governing politics, rather than domestic neoliberalism and/or whatever would replace EU membership?

Or failing _that_, what your plan is for opposing domestic neoliberalism, other than hoping the wind will change one day?

If you can't manage to adequately articulate any of it, why are you willing to risk incurring such damage - and setbacks to your own agenda - just to score one single point?


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> No policy, neoliberal or otherwise, is reversible without democracy. I've no idea what the second sentence means.


What democracy is that then? 

Is it the undemocratic EU that has imposed an neoliberal agenda? 

Does Britain become _more democratic _if it leaves the EU? Sorry, I don't see that at all.


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## mauvais (May 15, 2015)

kebabking said:


> the UK economy is worth one whole _seventh_ of all economic activity in the EU. the UK is one of one only two powers in the EU capable of lead-nation expeditionary warfare - and is arguably the most powerful of those two powers and becoming moreso - and the UK is one of only two nuclear weapons states within the EU, and the only one with a full counter-strike capability though the other has more warheads. its also one of only two UNSC P5 members in the EU so, certainly on the face of it, the UK leaving would significantly reduce the EU's political/military/diplomatic 'clout'.


This is a set of decent points, but what do you think the consequences would be? I think it'd be a further catalyst for formation of an EU military - more palatable than for a long time, given the increased profile of Russia - and reform of the balance/structure of the UNSC, possibly even NATO.

I don't know that an exit would diminish UK military importance globally, other than by being supplanted, since UK/European collaboration outside NATO has never been strong, but I can't see it leaving an empty space in Europe-wide defence for very long.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Yes, but can you explain to me how an EU exit will positively enable you to reverse neoliberal policy, rather than it delivering an academic but useless advantage?
> 
> Or failing that, how EU policy-based neoliberalism is the dominant influence on our governing politics, rather than domestic neoliberalism and/or whatever would replace EU membership?
> 
> ...



For a start, TTIP will be introduced without debate by the EU. At least at a national level there is the potential to get some opposition going. The cost of an EU-wide campaign is much more than a UK-wide one.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What democracy is that then?
> 
> Is it the undemocratic EU that has imposed an neoliberal agenda?
> 
> Does Britain become _more democratic _if it leaves the EU? Sorry, I don't see that at all.



Yes, it becomes more democratic. The EU is less easy to change than the UK.


----------



## mauvais (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> For a start, TTIP will be introduced without debate by the EU. At least at a national level there is the potential to get some opposition going. The cost of an EU-wide campaign is much more than a UK-wide one.


This much makes perfect sense, at least - thanks.

Edit: I am left curious as to whether there is a greater democratic weight against TTIP across the EU than there is domestically though.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> For a start, TTIP will be introduced without debate by the EU. At least at a national level there is the potential to get some opposition going. The cost of an EU-wide campaign is much more than a UK-wide one.


Something Cameron supports. Can there be no ambition to build pan-European movements against such measures that would be more powerful than any single national one?


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## Louis MacNeice (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Something Cameron supports. *Can there be no ambition to build pan-European movements *against such measures that would be more powerful than any single national one?



Does the working class in Europe need the EU to foster pan-European movements? 

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. I realise that is not what you wrote but it does seem suggestive of the idea.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Does the working class in Europe need the EU to foster pan-European movements?


No. That wasn't quite my point, though. I am questioning the idea that it might be easier to fight neoliberalism from without the EU.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Something Cameron supports. Can there be no ambition to build pan-European movements against such measures that would be more powerful than any single national one?



How would a pan-European movement be fostered? If European citizens were successful in organising on a wide enough scale, how would that movement force change at the centre?


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## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2015)

mather said:


> Which shows us that the Tories alleged 'opposition' to the EU is nothing more than cynical posturing.



One could assume that.  However, there's quite a big difference between the pragmatic though hypocritical actions of Major and Thatcher, and the dyed-in-the-wool UK rightist anti-EU narrative. That narrative is oppositional, based on prejudice (have you ever heard an anti-EU narrative from a UK rightist that didn't end "blahblahblah foreigners"?) and anything but cynical posturing.



> When the possibility of Brexit becomes a real thing, the Tories will line up with the rest of the British establishment and try every desperate trick to scare and fool voters into supporting our continued membership of the EU.



Most of the Tory leadership, anyway. Having met a few rural Conservatives in my time, I'm not sanguine that many of them can actually manage rational behaviour, and quite expect them to turn on the leadership *when* (not if) the above "lining up" happens.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> How would a pan-European movement be fostered? If European citizens were successful in organising on a wide enough scale, how would that movement force change at the centre?


How does any movement force change at the centre? Ultimately  by threatening order, by threatening business-as-usual. 

I don't claim to have good answers, but I don't see good answers following on from leaving the EU either, not unless leaving is done in order to avoid the likes of TTIP. I fear rather the reverse would be true - leaving would be done to facilitate this kind of anti-democratic measure.


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## Maurice Picarda (May 15, 2015)

mather said:


> a never ending series of wars against weak and poor defenceless countries (*Yugoslavia*, *Kosovo*, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, *Ukraine* etc...)s.



I'd rather see policy dictated from Brussels than posts dictated from Belgrade and Moscow, I must say.


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## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Perhaps, but remember that the right-wing tories who advocate leaving the EU are almost as one in their Atlanticism.



Farage was punting the tired old "trans-atlantic trading bloc" meme as recently as January.



> They want the UK to be more like the US. They want fewer worker rights. They want hire and fire, cowtow to your bosses, and fuck you if you fall by the wayside.



Although frankly that's an aim with or without trans-atlantic union. We don't need North America's cock in our mouth in order for our boss class to have a taste for worker oppression.



> I would love the UK to leave the EU ( and NATO - please leave NATO) to pursue socialist policies that would be blocked by EU law. But that's not where we're at. There is zero prospect that this would happen. And you can't just ignore the things that _are_ likely to happen with a post-EU tory/new labour administration.



Well, you *can* and *do *ignore it if you're one of the eggheads punting it for the political parties, as I've yet to see any coherent explanation of "where do we go from here?" and "how do we stop x,y and z happening?" from any of them.
If we leave, we need a strategy somewhat more considered than "lets go kiss the US's arse".


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How does any movement force change at the centre? Ultimately  by threatening order, by threatening business-as-usual.
> 
> I don't claim to have good answers, but I don't see good answers following on from leaving the EU either, not unless leaving is done in order to avoid the likes of TTIP. I fear rather the reverse would be true - leaving would be done to facilitate this kind of anti-democratic measure.



So imagine we stay inside the EU and TTIP is put into law. What happens years down the line, after a long hard slog campaigning against it, a government is elected with an anti TTIP mandate? Are the EU going to roll over and allow us to get rid of TTIP? Of course not. It's either stay in the EU with TTIP, or withdraw from both.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> So imagine we stay inside the EU and TTIP is put into law. What happens years down the line, after a long hard slog campaigning against it, a government is elected with an anti TTIP mandate? Are the EU going to roll over and allow us to get rid of TTIP? Of course not. It's either stay in the EU with TTIP, or withdraw from both.


That's not really how the EU works. There were supposed to be strict budgetary boundaries for membership of the euro. France openly flouted them. And if one govt within the EU is elected with such a mandate, you can bet your arse that there will be movements against it in other EU countries, too.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not really how the EU works. There were supposed to be strict budgetary boundaries for membership of the euro. France openly flouted them. And if one govt within the EU is elected with such a mandate, you can bet your arse that there will be movements against it in other EU countries, too.



You mean like how Greece has been able to flout the Troika and usher in an era of anti-austerity?


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## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2015)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah totally agree with that. I hate the EU and want it to break apart but i do have some worries about what will happen when we leave it. If you look at countries such as Sweden which have something approaching social democratic regimes they are increasingly introducing austerity and restricting the social democratic regime to narrow sections of the population (it doesn't really apply to immigrants at all). In Germany similar welfare policies are increasingly applied to the UK, albeit perhaps at a slower rate.



A *BIG* difference in the cases of both Sweden and Germany is the involvement of "the third sector", which is much more independent, flexible and NOT constrained by the fact of taking government money (unlike about 2/3rds of major charities here). That's meant that even with harsh "welfare" legislation like Harz IV in Germany, the third sector has been able to compensate somewhat. 
Here, if you're not sucking government tit, and try to do anything, you get vilified - look at the shit even a bunch like the Trussel Trust get for co-ordinating and organising foodbanks!  



> But there is a sense in which the EU through some of its legislation and the court etc is thought to put a brake on austerity and the cruellest effects of neoliberalism. If we voted to leave the world would go batshit. I don't think the UK will vote to leave and there's nobody out there putting a progressive case for leaving other than a few tiny sects. I'm also very, very pessimistic tbh.



Perhaps there isn't yet a coherent progressive case that's been made? Most of what I've heard over the last 30 years doesn't go into much depth about what can be done/should be done post-exit.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> You mean like how Greece has been able to flout the Troika and usher in an era of anti-austerity?


Greece needs to leave the euro and default on its debt. But even if it does so, it may still be fucked, doomed to another period of nasty, perhaps even military again, authoritarian rule. 

But sure, Greece starts from a position of complete powerlessness and is treated accordingly. I'm not defending EU neoliberalism here, but we also shouldn't pretend that it's just _EU_ neoliberalism.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Greece needs to leave the euro and default on its debt. But even if it does so, it may still be fucked, doomed to another period of nasty, perhaps even military again, authoritarian rule.
> 
> But sure, Greece starts from a position of complete powerlessness and is treated accordingly. I'm not defending EU neoliberalism here, but we also shouldn't pretend that it's just _EU_ neoliberalism.



You still haven't convinced of the benefits of staying in the EU whilst fighting TTIP. What are they?


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> You still haven't convinced of the benefits of staying in the EU whilst fighting TTIP. What are they?


You haven't convinced me of the benefits of leaving in the EU in order to fight TTIP.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You haven't convinced me of the benefits of leaving in the EU in order to fight TTIP.



If we stay in the EU we can't leave TTIP. That's it, really.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> If we stay in the EU we can't leave TTIP. That's it, really.


TTIP doesn't go far enough. Now we're free, we're negotiating a super-dooper, Special Relationship version...


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> TTIP doesn't go far enough. Now we're free, we're negotiating a super-dooper, Special Relationship version...



Better the devil you know then. "Vote Tory, else UKIP might get in".


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## Maurice Picarda (May 15, 2015)

TTIP does a very good thing in making trade between the EU and US easier. It carries some baggage I'm not keen on, in that it tips the EU more towards US models on the power relationship between state, citizen and corporation. On the other hand, it tips the US more towards EU models, which can only be good for our American friends currently denied kettles, squash and employment rights. So a good internationalist should be in favour.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Better the devil you know then. "Vote Tory, else UKIP might get in".


Just that leaving the EU in the current climate is likely to empower the Atlanticists who are agitating for it. Just a more pessimistic view of what is likely to happen in a UK that leaves the EU at the moment.

And the other issue to do with the employment rights currently guaranteed by EU law. Can you answer my earlier question about this?


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## Pickman's model (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just that leaving the EU in the current climate is likely to empower the Atlanticists who are agitating for it. Just a more pessimistic view of what is likely to happen in a UK that leaves the EU at the moment.


strange it's only OUR atlanticists who are clamouring for it.


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## Stanley Edwards (May 15, 2015)

purves grundy said:


> Super-rich like Stanley Edwards ?
> 
> Bollocks to accidents of birth determining where you're gonna live and work, to borders, passports and all that backwards shit.



I have been without passport for over 6 months now. No passport. No bank cards, or access to bank account. Literally living on the cash I make each day. Easier now I am in Granada amongst friends, but I was very thankful for the Schengen agreement when I had to travel to make money. Didn't allow me to get to big cash in Ibiza (only land borders are covered), but I actually had a very comfortable winter.

The rich had freedom to travel long before us lot did. Mostly thanks to community agreements like the EU we can all enjoy a far greater freedom. Travelling, and mixing with people from very different cultures is a very healthy thing.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 15, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just that leaving the EU in the current climate is likely to empower the Atlanticists who are agitating for it. Just a more pessimistic view of what is likely to happen in a UK that leaves the EU at the moment.
> 
> And the other issue to do with the employment rights currently guaranteed by EU law. Can you answer my earlier question about this?



These rights are not guaranteed for the Greek working class. Why do you think they would be guaranteed for us if push came to shove?


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## Louis MacNeice (May 15, 2015)

Stanley Edwards said:


> I have been without passport for over 6 months now. No passport. No bank cards, or access to bank account. Literally living on the cash I make each day. Easier now I am in Granada amongst friends, but I was very thankful for the Schengen agreement when I had to travel to make money. Didn't allow me to get to big cash in Ibiza (only land borders are covered), but I actually had a very comfortable winter.
> 
> The rich had freedom to travel long before us lot did. Mostly thanks to community agreements like the EU we can all enjoy a far greater freedom. *Travelling, and mixing with people from very different cultures is a very healthy thing.*



Surely that all depends on the content of those 'very different cultures', what you take from them (as in insight not theft) and what you do with what you've taken?

Louis MacNeice


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## littlebabyjesus (May 15, 2015)

cynicaleconomy said:


> These rights are not guaranteed for the Greek working class. Why do you think they would be guaranteed for us if push came to shove?


I don't. Doesn't mean that their existence now makes no difference. Some of the UK's employment laws currently exceed EU minimums, but the recent EU ruling on holiday pay for overtime shows the EU acting as a push, ruling for an extension of rights. 

Perhaps you can think of examples where it's acted as a pull, dragging better rights in the UK back, but my judgement would be that, since membership, the EU has acted as a net push for things like holiday pay, part-time rights and maternity leave.


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I dislike the EU, but I worry that given the political system within which EU members exist (neoliberalism) that the exit of a nation-state may have an adverse effect on elements of the populace of that nation-state. The EU as a power bloc has (mostly despite itself) preserved a few protections through HR legislation, and there's absolutely no guarantee that any exiting govt will legislate to continue those protections - in fact we already know that the Tories will be resiling either from the Human Rights Act _in toto_ and replacing it with some nebuolous "bill of rights", or slicing out any provisions that they believe affect capitalism's "right" to maximally exploit.





mauvais said:


> And all the while missing the point that maintaining workable EU membership obliges the UK to at least pretend to tread water on civil liberties, in the face of decades of wilful Labour & Tory erosion that outpaces the EU's own illiberalism.





mauvais said:


> I know. I'm talking about the exact opposite.
> 
> From the top. Cameron, an authoritarian, would apparently like to dismantle the Human Rights Act - in favour of what, it's unclear - and obviously not just to delegate it back to the EU. That can't, in practice, be done without leaving the Council of Europe, which can't be done without leaving the EU. Hence, albeit in a hopeless dystopian fashion, EU membership currently thwarts him.
> 
> Obviously if we had a blank canvas to work with, support on this basis would be a ridiculous idea, but the prospect for a domestically-driven improvement to civil liberties is thoroughly bleak.





littlebabyjesus said:


> If the UK leaves the EU, one level of (limited) protection against abuses by bosses and state authorities will be removed, yes.
> 
> And with these fuckers in power at the moment (and Blair before them, too), that is not nothing, imo.





littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes it is. It is also possible to appreciate certain benefits from the eu as a bulwark against the worst excesses of the UK's Westminster govt from the left, while still acknowledging all the EU's drawbacks.





8ball said:


> I share your Eurosceptic leanings <mostly on account of the democratic deficit and total lack of accountability they embody> but I feel uneasy about dropping out while the Tories hold sway.





mauvais said:


> Of course it is, and we should. But until the left is likely to win sweeping victories of its own, and its failure to compromise on absolutes and embrace difficult alliances is partly why we're in this mess, I'm going to feel alright tentatively and pragmatically siding with whichever horrible bastard might deliver the lesser kicking on the things I care about. At least then I'll have something to rail against with the original complaint, rather than a massive retrograde step into a vacuum.
> 
> I realise that I'm pretty much channelling some third rate, third way Mandelson-politic who-needs-values as I write this, but fuck me, haven't I lost enough times already?





mauvais said:


> Agreed. I can see the point, and again it goes to blank canvas politics; if you want a purely principled stand, a 'no' vote is probably the right choice, but it's still going to be hard to stand up for your other principles once you've just shot both your feet off. It's a miserable context to live in by anyone's judgement but I don't see the merit in making it more so without an apparent return on it. If a British exit killed off the EU and was a catalyst for change, maybe, but I just don't see it. In fact it seems vanishingly unlikely.





littlebabyjesus said:


> Perhaps, but remember that the right-wing tories who advocate leaving the EU are almost as one in their Atlanticism. They want the UK to be more like the US. They want fewer worker rights. They want hire and fire, cowtow to your bosses, and fuck you if you fall by the wayside.
> 
> I would love the UK to leave the EU ( and NATO - please leave NATO) to pursue socialist policies that would be blocked by EU law. But that's not where we're at. There is zero prospect that this would happen. And you can't just ignore the things that _are_ likely to happen with a post-EU tory/new labour administration.



I am going to respond to all of these posts together as they pretty much deal with the same issue that I have mentioned in one of my previous posts, namely that there are many people who are gripped by a sense of fear and despair with regards to the consequences of a British withdrawal of the EU even when they can clearly see all that is wrong with the EU. As I have said before, such a sense of fear and despair cannot be dismissed or brushed aside as they are based on real concerns about would could happen in the immediate aftermath of a possible British withdrawal of the EU, even though I strongly disagree with the conclusions that all of you have reached on this issue.

The first thing I would like to address is the point that many of you have raised, that the EU acts as some kind of break on the ability of the Tories and the bosses to launch attacks on the working class and our living conditions. Aside from EU bureaucrats making a few mealy mouthed platitudes concerning human and civil rights, what hard evidence is there to back this point up? I'm sure you all would agree with the point that ultimately the ruling elites of both Britain and the EU have far more in common with each other than they do with the working classes that they exploit and rule over. When the chips are down, is anyone going to seriously argue that the EU elite would jeopardise it's own power and position for the sake of the British working class? We have seen how the EU elite have treated the working class in Greece, what makes you think they would act any differently were a clash of interests to happen between the working and ruling classes in Britain? At the end of the day the ruling classes of Europe are just as vicious and as ruthless as any other ruling class in the world. I don't buy the view that some Europhiles have that the ruling classes of Europe are somehow more benign and benevolent than other ruling classes (like the US for example). The logic of capitalism is universal and all ruling classes will do whatever it takes to continue ruling over and exploiting the working class, national differences are irrelevant on this point. The only thing that can oppose such attacks is the organisation of the working class and nothing else. When set against the class interests of the ruling elite, no constitution, no treaty, no piece of human rights legislation can stand it's way, such documents are not even worth the paper they are written on. Throughout history, every time the working class has surrendered it's political independence and it's ability to organise in favour of relying on the 'goodwill' of the ruling class to 'do what is right' it ends up with the working class defeated and in a weaker, less organised state than when it started. Such defeatist attitudes serve no one but the ruling class.

The second point I would like to address is the commonly held view that leaving the EU means lining up with the US. While there are those among the British right-wing who favour such an outcome (Atlanticism), for a communist such as myself I reject this as a false dichotomy. Why does it have to be a case of either or? Why can't we reject both as undesirable outcomes for the interests of the working class?

As for a solution, I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers but then again no one else on the other side of this debate has come up with any workable solutions either. However, leaving the the EU does not mean that Britain would have to be isolated and cut off from the rest of the world, like North Korea for example. Instead of collaborating with the EU and it's elites, why not go over their heads and appeal to the working classes of Europe. Instead of working with the EU to screw over people and trash their living and working conditions, why not work with and offer solidarity to the working class of Europe in their struggles? That is true internationalism.


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes it is. It is also possible to appreciate certain benefits from the eu as a bulwark against the worst excesses of the UK's Westminster govt from the left, while still acknowledging all the EU's drawbacks.



If you vote to stay in the EU, then your voting for the status quo, regardless of any views you have regarding the EU's drawbacks. 

Have none of the lessons of the Scottish referendum been learnt? The ruling class aren't going to take your views on the EU's drawbacks on board, they will interpret your vote as a vote for their agenda and 'business as usual'.


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Of course it is, and we should. But until the left is likely to win sweeping victories of its own, and its failure to compromise on absolutes and embrace difficult alliances is partly why we're in this mess, I'm going to feel alright tentatively and pragmatically siding with whichever horrible bastard might deliver the lesser kicking on the things I care about. At least then I'll have something to rail against with the original complaint, rather than a massive retrograde step into a vacuum.
> 
> I realise that I'm pretty much channelling some third rate, third way Mandelson-politic who-needs-values as I write this, but fuck me, haven't I lost enough times already?



Since when has lesser evilism ever been a successful tactic? If you take that logic to it's conclusion you might as well give up on trying to change things for the better and politics altogether, as it amounts to nothing more than accepting defeat. This is the same logic that allows the Tory-lite Labour Party to keep getting votes because 'hey, at least they are not the Tory party'. We need to escape this mindset if any progress is to be achieved.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't. Doesn't mean that their existence now makes no difference. Some of the UK's employment laws currently exceed EU minimums, but the recent EU ruling on holiday pay for overtime shows the EU acting as a push, ruling for an extension of rights.
> 
> Perhaps you can think of examples where it's acted as a pull, dragging better rights in the UK back, but my judgement would be that, since membership, the EU has acted as a net push for things like holiday pay, part-time rights and maternity leave.


you're conflating the ecj and eu.


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> By the way, the EU does not impose austerity on basket case nations like Greece. The ECB, the IMF and creditor nations are the ones to impose demands. There's no prospect of the UK leaving the IMF or becoming a stakeholder in the ECB; we will continue, presumably, to pursue our interests in Greek debt whatever our membership of the EU.



Fuck off! The EU  played a central part in crashing the Greek economy and a lickspittle cunt such as yourself has the fucking gall to lay the blame at the Greek people for this mess as well as making an outright lie that the EU has no part in this whatsoever, who the fuck do you think your kidding?


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

ska invita said:


> Not only do UK 'business leaders' want to say in, but the US wants the UK to stay in too (or so ive read somewhere) - the UK is the US's key foothold in the EU



Yet another good reason to leave the EU then.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't. Doesn't mean that their existence now makes no difference. Some of the UK's employment laws currently exceed EU minimums, but the recent EU ruling on holiday pay for overtime shows the EU acting as a push, ruling for an extension of rights.
> 
> Perhaps you can think of examples where it's acted as a pull, dragging better rights in the UK back, but my judgement would be that, since membership, the EU has acted as a net push for things like holiday pay, part-time rights and maternity leave.


the eu. not the ecj. not the actions of working class people. have you evidence yo support your judgment?


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## mauvais (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> the eu. not the ecj. not the actions of working class people. have you evidence yo support your judgment?


The ECJ is the EU. Am I missing something here?


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

mauvais said:


> The ECJ is the EU. Am I missing something here?


the ecj is a court. it decides on the cases brought before it. you might as well say the auld house of lords decisions were british government decisions and indicated govt policy.


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## Maurice Picarda (May 16, 2015)

mather said:


> Fuck off! The EU  played a central part in crashing the Greek economy and a lickspittle cunt such as yourself has the fucking gall to lay the blame at the Greek people for this mess as well as making an outright lie that the EU has no part in this whatsoever, who the fuck do you think your kidding?



Monetary union - or, at least, monetary policy, which comes down to the ECB - exacerbated Greece's structural problems. I'll give you that much. But the idea that "the EU crashed the Greek economy" is just nonsense. 

On the whole, though, it's probably a good thing to have the more loathsome elements of the left - the people who would cheer for Milosevic rather than accept that Blair was ever right about anything - screaming this crap. When the vile right and the vile left are aligned, sensible folk will vote for the status quo.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

mauvais said:


> The ECJ is the EU. Am I missing something here?


so, yes


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Monetary union - or, at least, monetary policy, which comes down to the ECB - exacerbated Greece's structural problems. I'll give you that much. But the idea that "the EU crashed the Greek economy" is just nonsense.
> 
> On the whole, though, it's probably a good thing to have the more loathsome elements of the left - the people who would cheer for Milosevic rather than accept that Blair was ever right about anything - screaming this crap. When the vile right and the vile left are aligned, sensible folk will vote for the status quo.


blair caused massacres in kosovo. did you forget that?


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## mauvais (May 16, 2015)

mather said:


> Since when has lesser evilism ever been a successful tactic? If you take that logic to it's conclusion you might as well give up on trying to change things for the better and politics altogether, as it amounts to nothing more than accepting defeat. This is the same logic that allows the Tory-lite Labour Party to keep getting votes because 'hey, at least they are not the Tory party'. We need to escape this mindset if any progress is to be achieved.


Outside of Labour, which is useless for a different, overlapping set of reasons, it's pretty much the opposite of what you describe. The left remains fractured because it can't compromise amongst itself on absolute positions, on priorities, on picking its battles. As the house burns down it can be found inside arguing about the relationship of the flames to private property and the 19th century working class. So 'lesser evilism' might be a fine tactic if you might actually win for once.


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## mauvais (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> the ecj is a court. it decides on the cases brought before it. you might as well say the auld house of lords decisions were british government decisions and indicated govt policy.


Yeah fine, but in the context of EU membership, it's part and parcel is it not? You could argue the toss on the ECHR remaining significant post-exit, but the ECJ is an EU institution concerned with EU law, so when asking, 'what has the EU ever done for us?', it's fair to point at it, no?


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## Maurice Picarda (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> blair caused massacres in kosovo. did you forget that?



The NATO action was part of a sequence of events in the region which included countless horrible things done by Serbs to Kosovar Albanians and to Croats and vice versa. Yes, there were civilian casualties from the bombing, and yes, there were masscres in Kosovo that followed the NATO campaign. But overall, NATO's intervention paved the way to a cessation of violence and was by any perspective justified by the outcomes. I can't believe that anyone would seriously argue retrospectively against intervention in Kosovo.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Yeah fine, but in the context of EU membership, it's part and parcel is it not? You could argue the toss on the ECHR remaining significant post-exit, but the ECJ is an EU institution concerned with EU law, so when asking, 'what has the EU ever done for us?', it's fair to point at it, no?


it is part of eu membership. it is not part of the policy-making or legislative process of the eu despite littlebabyjesus' claims.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> The NATO action was part of a sequence of events in the region which included countless horrible things done by Serbs to Kosovar Albanians and to Croats and vice versa. Yes, there were civilian casualties from the bombing, and yes, there were masscres in Kosovo that followed the NATO campaign. But overall, NATO's intervention paved the way to a cessation of violence and was by any perspective justified by the outcomes. I can't believe that anyone would seriously argue retrospectively against intervention in Kosovo.


i think you want to revisit the chronology


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## Maurice Picarda (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you want to revisit the chronology



The reason Kosovo is on the table is that this Mather bloke (who seems to be new, yet registered in 2010 - I rather suspect sockpuppetry and an old login rediscovered) described the EU as carrying out "a never ending series of wars against weak and poor defenceless countries (Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine etc...)" That description of the NATO Kosovo campaign (a war _against a country_? Really?) is why I'm suggesting that he is an unreliable observer of, and commentator on, events. A Kosovo thread arguing about the chronology could go on for years; the point that Mather sees geopolitical events in ludicrously crude terms should surely stand.

Anyway, it's been nice chatting, but I'm sure I put you on ignore for a reason, and so back you go.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

Some of the more _naive_ on this thread - esp those who consider themselves to be pro-eu from a  pro-working class/communist/anarchist etc perspective might benefit more from a half hour read of this piece outlining the evolution of the EU in the age of neo-liberalism than posting on here defending what it _used _to be (for the plainly and simple and _democratic _political types - _ooh free movement, benefits vs costs, how can we bolster UK based capital _etc maybe not so much). And it also offers a well theorised take on contemporary economic regulation and State Form:

Europe Forged in Crisis: The Emergence and Development of the EU



> Instead, I will try to address the emergence and development of the EU as a new political form by focusing on the underlying process of economic integration: why was economic integration needed and why did its establishment involve the creation of the EU? Pursuing this question will allow us better understand what the EU is in relation to the state, how it developed, and what it does.
> 
> European integration should not be understood as a steady and continuous progress towards “ever closer union.” Rather, we need to understand the development of the EU as an iterated process of dealing with crises of capitalist reproduction that arise from working class power and the threat of working class autonomy. This iterated process can be seen then as having two waves, the first one emerging in the late ’40s and ’50s, the second emerging in the late ’80s and early ’90s, and continuing to develop ever since.7





> ...the fundamental argument of this article: that the development of the EU needs to be understood as a bifurcation of the state, where the regulation of capitalist reproduction takes place at a European level, while the mediation of class antagonism and the enforcement of these regulations remains at a national level





> Today, the political contestation of economic life, which has been the core of liberal democracies based on universal suffrage, is increasingly impossible. In each national state, governments change, but the policies do not. Policies are not set by national government, but by the EU. But it is not possible to democratically change the government of the EU, or to democratically change the policies it pursues.
> 
> This has not only drawn outrage from the European electorate, but also from national governments. In 2012, when Olli Rehn, the European commissioner for economic and monetary affairs directed the Belgian government to cut between €1.2 billion and €2 billion from its budget, a government Minister responded: “Who knows who Olli Rehn is? Who has seen Olli Rehn’s face? Who knows where he comes from and what he’s done? Nobody. Yet he tells us how we should conduct our economic policy.”57


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## mauvais (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it is part of eu membership. it is not part of the policy-making or legislative process of the eu despite littlebabyjesus' claims.


I don't see those claims, I see it as LBJ talking about EU membership as an influence. Plus presumably the ECJ is at least based around said policy & legislation rather than just wholly magicking its own interpretations out of a beret, so any claim that court decisions don't at least significantly reflect the rest of the EU's apparatus is a stretch.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 16, 2015)

I'm not going to echo what BA and Mather have said better than me but one thing I would add is that even if the idea that the EU (with all those lovely social democrats in it) will protect us form the Tories is true - what does it say about the liberal left that they would rather put their faith in a bosses club than in the ability of communities to fight back.


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Monetary union - or, at least, monetary policy, which comes down to the ECB - exacerbated Greece's structural problems. I'll give you that much. But the idea that "the EU crashed the Greek economy" is just nonsense.



That's not nonsense at all. The EU's international treaties binding Eurozone countries into the institutional austerity required of 'consolidator states' is everything to do with the Greek economic disaster. The mechanisms by which the structural economic problems of 'soft' currency (mainly) South European states were previously resolved are no longer open to them. In their place is technocratic austerity governance from the supra-national 'state', designed to protect the 'markets' and financialised capital from the 'vagaries of democracy'.


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## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

I tell you what i see a lot of around this issue - people who grew up in or became politically mature in the thatcher and major period  - a period where a large part of the (legislative, legal law based ) defence of working class interests was shifted to the EU level out of sheer desperation - clinging onto the _social europe_ model, of the EU as the anti-thatcher, that the EU left used as cover at that point (they really meant capitalism modernisation and labour flexibilibilty) without being able to recognise that it - and the conditions that allowed it to develop - are definitively gone. You don't get very far in battles with outdated maps.

edit: 10 pm,what was  a tactic became a strategy.


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## mauvais (May 16, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not going to echo what BA and Mather have said better than me but one thing I would add is that even if the idea that the EU (with all those lovely social democrats in it) will protect us form the Tories is true - what does it say about the liberal left that they would rather put their faith in a bosses club than in the ability of communities to fight back.


Clearly, it says that it's hopeless. I have no problem acknowledging that my own line on it comes from hopelessness, but in the absence of being offered any credible hope - not nebulous fantasies - I'll stick with it.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

mauvais said:


> I don't see those claims, I see it as LBJ talking about EU membership as an influence. Plus presumably the ECJ is at least based around said policy & legislation rather than just wholly magicking its own interpretations out of a beret, so any claim that court decisions don't at least significantly reflect the rest of the EU's apparatus is a stretch.


holiday pay on overtime?


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## mauvais (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> holiday pay on overtime?


Interpretation of the Working Time Directive, the output of the legislative machinery it's apparently divorced from. What do you think the WTD original intent on the matter was? (I have no idea)


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## andysays (May 16, 2015)

As well as the actual arguments for leaving the EU (which I'm largely persuaded by if not 100% convinced) it's also worth bearing in mind the reason we're going to have this referendum in the first place.

As the thread title suggests, it's a Tory referendum, held in an attempt to overcome a split within the Tory party (and by extension a split within the ruling class), just as the 1975 referendum was an attempt to overcome deep splits within the Labour party*.

Whatever your views in the EU, a tactical anti-Tory vote means doing whatever will best ensure that the splits are not overcome, that one faction of the ruling class doesn't gain overall dominance, and the result most likelt to achieve that would be either a vote to leave, or a very close vote to stay which keeps the whole thing bubbling along unresolved, in a similar way to how the Scottish referendum has done.

*remember Wilson's comment about the idea of a referendum providing a lifeboat into which the whole Labour Movement could clamber. This time it's a Tory/ruling class lifeboat, so we should ask how best to rock the boat, even if we can't actually sink it.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

mauvais said:


> Interpretation of the Working Time Directive, the output of the legislative machinery it's apparently divorced from. What do you think the WTD original intent on the matter was? (I have no idea)


not this


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## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

andysays said:


> As well as the actual arguments for leaving the EU (which I'm largely persuaded by if not 100% convinced) it's also worth bearing in mind the reason we're going to have this referendum in the first place.
> 
> As the thread title suggests, it's a Tory referendum, held in an attempt to overcome a split within the Tory party (and by extension a split within the ruling class), just as the 1975 referendum was an attempt to overcome deep splits within the Labour party*.
> 
> ...



Good point. IMO the vote to leave would cause turmoil within the vermin. The divisions exposed and exacerbated would reveal the neo-liberal, nationalist coalition factions and leave the party riven. An unlikely outcome, but with all the major parties forming around the 'in' campaign...you never know, the electorate might just give it one enormous fuck-you.


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## frogwoman (May 16, 2015)

Perhaps you can argue that Intervention in Kosovo was justified and I strongly disagree that it was, at least in the manner that it was. But the events in Kosovo since have actually led to an appalling situation for many minorities living in Kosovo which the eu/nato has done fuck all about.

http://www.osce.org/kosovo/83789?download=true The Kosovo Croats of Viti/Vitina Municipality - a vulnerable community 



> Government and state agencies unduly influenced the media through major contributions to their advertizing revenue. Attacks on investigative journalists continued. Visar Duriqi, a journalist for the newspaper Express, received serious death threats after reporting on Islamic extremist groups. The Association of Professional Journalists expressed concerns that EULEX had put pressure on Koha Ditore journalist, Vehbi Kajtazi, who had reported alleged corruption in EULEX.



https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/europe-and-central-asia/serbia/report-serbia/

And thats just for a start


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## DotCommunist (May 16, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Good point. IMO the vote to leave would cause turmoil within the vermin. The divisions exposed and exacerbated would reveal the neo-liberal, nationalist coalition factions and leave the party riven. An unlikely outcome, but with all the major parties forming around the 'in' campaign...you never know, the electorate might just give it one enormous fuck-you.


don't say the P word!


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## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> don't say the P word!


P word?


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

purves grundy said:


> Super-rich like Stanley Edwards ?
> 
> Bollocks to accidents of birth determining where you're gonna live and work, to borders, passports and all that backwards shit.



Yes, in an ideal and egalitarian world we would all be better off without "_all that backwards shit_" but we don't live in an ideal world and if we are to have any chance of changing the world for the better we have to start dealing with the world as it is as our starting point. If the price of being able to live anywhere you want in Europe and not to have to show your passport at border control means a never-ending cycle of poverty, unemployment, 'flexible' labour and working conditions, the selling off of vital public services etc... then that is a price that I and millions of others would rather not pay. Who cares if I can theoretically go and live in Germany if I have no home of my own, no job and no money. To be honest I can't even take advantage of the free movement of people because I don't even have the money to make the move, I'm too poor to even be an immigrant.


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## DotCommunist (May 16, 2015)

brogdale said:


> P word?



ends in 'ification'
just speculating how labour voters might feel when faced with a twin tory\lab browbeating in to voting the right way....as seen north of the wall...


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> ends in 'ification'
> just speculating how labour voters might feel when faced with a twin tory\lab browbeating in to voting the right way....as seen north of the wall...


Gotya. This will be UKIP's life-blood; when Cameron backs 'in' (after some much trumpeted but fabricated superficial reform promises) the 'kippers will pick up from both main parties, and see a real mid-term surge.


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> It also means "too small to exert leverage on supra-national organisations".



That logic only works if were are talking in class terms, that is the widest possible unity of workers across borders fighting for their own class interests. Joining up with this or that ruling class trading bloc won't do that, it would just leave us at the mercy of whichever set of thieves we surrendered our sovereignty too.


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## mather (May 16, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surely the next "rational" move after leaving the EU would be to withdraw from NATO?
> Then we can sit on our septic isle in pristine isolation while the world falls down around us.
> 
> Leaving the EU won't solve the problems frogwoman has posted about. It'll just mean attachment to another neoliberal trading bloc that will seek social influence and control in much the same way as the EU does. The only way to destroy such problems is to dismantle the politics and ideology that drives them.



Yes, I want out of NATO as well. 

I reject your simplistic assertion that leaving the EU means signing up to another neo-liberal trading bloc, how about not being part of any trading blocs that rely on human misery and exploitation, or is that just too 'barmy' and 'old fashioned' an idea?

You say that we need to get to the root of the problem and dismantle the politics and ideology behind all of this, I totally agree. Please explain to me then how remaining in the EU achieves that?


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## frogwoman (May 16, 2015)

Can i also say its incredibly dishonest portraying opposition to intervention in kosovo and NATO's bombing of Belgrade as some sort of sympathy for Serb Nationalism and Milosevic (when the british state had been only to happy to do privatisation deals with Milosevic a few years earlier). Especially when the EU has been only too happy to completely ignore discrimination against serbs in kosovo and assist in suppression of protests by kosovo albanians protesting against corruption etc. An increasing number of Kosovo Albanians want the EU out and stop interfering in its affairs too.


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## frogwoman (May 16, 2015)

The Rule of Lawlessness: EULEX in Kosovo
EULEX, the EU's rule of law mission in Kosovo, is dealing with allegation of corruption including bribe-taking all the while trying to gag the press from reporting on its misdeeds.
Search domain www.internationalpolicydigest.org/2014/11/18/rule-lawlessness-eulex-kosovo/


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## littlebabyjesus (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> the ecj is a court. it decides on the cases brought before it. you might as well say the auld house of lords decisions were british government decisions and indicated govt policy.


Er, that's not a bad analogy - if a bit of the UK were to leave the UK, the house of lords decisions would carry no weight. 

As is often the case, your nit-picking is incorrect.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 16, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not going to echo what BA and Mather have said better than me but one thing I would add is that even if the idea that the EU (with all those lovely social democrats in it) will protect us form the Tories is true - what does it say about the liberal left that they would rather put their faith in a bosses club than in the ability of communities to fight back.



Ah, the we're all wibewals jibe.

Voting for the UK to leave the EU isn't communities fighting back any more than Scots voting for Scotland to leave the UK was communities fighting back. It is simply siding with one bosses club over another.


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## frogwoman (May 16, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah, the we're all wibewals jibe.
> 
> Voting for the UK to leave the EU isn't communities fighting back any more than Scots voting for Scotland to leave the UK was communities fighting back. It is simply siding with one bosses club over another.



I agree as far as the leadership of the SNP etc but the consequences of either of those things would have been fucking huge. The independence of Scotland would have led to a serious constitutional crisis not just in the UK but places like Spain as well. It's not true that following an independent scotland it would just be 'business as usual'. I'm sort of undecided as to how i feel about the idea but it wouldnt have been the same afterwards.


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## Stanley Edwards (May 16, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Surely that all depends on the content of those 'very different cultures', what you take from them (as in insight not theft) and what you do with what you've taken?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



I think the almost subliminal, or subconcious influence affects whoever, or whatever you are. You don't actually have to think about it too much. A bit like learning a new language - you very quickly pick-up the vocabularly surrounding your everyday routine. 'Very different cultures' aren't actually very different. No idea what I give, never mind what I take. It is just a very enjoyable journey.


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## Maurice Picarda (May 16, 2015)

If we leave the EU, Stanley will be repatriated. Sleepwalking into disaster.


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## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2015)

mather said:


> Yes, I want out of NATO as well.
> 
> I reject your simplistic assertion that leaving the EU means signing up to another neo-liberal trading bloc, how about not being part of any trading blocs that rely on human misery and exploitation, or is that just too 'barmy' and 'old fashioned' an idea?



I don't think it's either barmy or old-fashioned.
I *do* think that outside of an ideal world it isn't achievable within the current political model.



> You say that we need to get to the root of the problem and dismantle the politics and ideology behind all of this, I totally agree. Please explain to me then how remaining in the EU achieves that?



You *should* have noted that I haven't said "we should remain in the EU", I've asked "what's the alternative?" (outside of your ideal world, anyway). So far, I see a lot of wibble about how you're a communist, but not a lot about how this particular polity proceeds after exit, nor how being subsumed by a bigger fish is avoided.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 16, 2015)

mather said:


> Yes, I want out of NATO as well.
> 
> I reject your simplistic assertion that leaving the EU means signing up to another neo-liberal trading bloc, how about not being part of any trading blocs that rely on human misery and exploitation, or is that just too 'barmy' and 'old fashioned' an idea?
> 
> You say that we need to get to the root of the problem and dismantle the politics and ideology behind all of this, I totally agree. Please explain to me then how remaining in the EU achieves that?


It doesn't, but that's not the question, is it? The question is 'how does the UK leaving the EU get us any closer to such a place?' My judgement is that it doesn't, that the narrow 'atlanticist' nationalism that would be empowered by leaving would probably make things even worse.

And yes, I'm not ashamed to admit it: replacing EU structures and protections with structures and protections overseen by Westminster - with this Tory government in place - scares the hell out of me. I can see no good coming from such a transfer of powers, and I have still yet to see any real answer to this beyond hand-waving.

Doesn't mean I or others making a similar case love the EU, any more than the fact that I thought supporting Scottish independence was a mistake means that I am a nationalist unionist. I don't and I'm not.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Er, that's not a bad analogy - if a bit of the UK were to leave the UK, the house of lords decisions would carry no weight.
> 
> As is often the case, your nit-picking is incorrect.


so you think it is a bad analogy?

incidentally, house of lords decisions would, i submit, carry weight on how to interpret laws which carried on being on the statute books. i would not be surprised if pre-treaty house of lords decisions remained precedents for the irish free state. after all, it's not as though the irish free state started off with a _tabula rasa_ as far as laws were concerned, is it. they had to come from somewhere... see e.g. s.73 of the free state constitution and s.50 of the 1937 constitution, which affirmed the validity of laws enacted by westminster from 1801 on, which is at the least suggestive of accepting the validity of h of l rulings as precedents.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> ends in 'ification'
> just speculating how labour voters might feel when faced with a twin tory\lab browbeating in to voting the right way....as seen north of the wall...


piffle-ification  and i'll say it again


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## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> piffle-ification  and i'll say it again


Really? You think that (what remains of) the Labour 'core' will remain unmoved by their party standing together with Cameron's government? You think a broadly pro-EU sentiment amongst Labour (and former Labour) support will overcome their distaste at bipartisan consensus and campaigning?


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## weltweit (May 16, 2015)

mather said:


> .. I reject your simplistic assertion that leaving the EU means signing up to another neo-liberal trading bloc, how about not being part of any trading blocs that rely on human misery and exploitation, or is that just too 'barmy' and 'old fashioned' an idea?
> ...


Do you really think German workers, where an electronics engineer is paid 3 to 4 times as much as in Britain, would agree with your "human misery and exploitation" argument? It is not the aim of the EU to drive workers into penury.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 16, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Really? You think that (what remains of) the Labour 'core' will remain unmoved by their party standing together with Cameron's government? You think a broadly pro-EU sentiment amongst Labour (and former Labour) support will overcome their distaste at bipartisan consensus and campaigning?


If they're smart, they'll make a distinct case.

They may well not be smart, of course - they weren't over Scotland.


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## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If they're smart, they'll make a distinct case.
> 
> They may well not be smart, of course - they weren't over Scotland.


Hmmm, well if Kendall is any clue regarding trajectory.....



> _Labour *should support an in/out referendum on Europe, embrace business and stop advocating high taxation “just to make a point”* according to the leadership candidate propelled into frontrunner status among modernisers following Chuka Umunna’s sudden withdrawal._





> The MP said she was *a passionate pro-European*, but added: “We should have that referendum, *make the case and take on the argument, early, strongly and passionately*.” Labour had been opposed to a vote on EU membership before the election; following David Cameron’s surprise victory a poll is expected in 2016.


and, aside from Europe, this...



> Kendall said that *she supported a welfare cap on the total amount of benefits received, arguing that “voters in my constituency do not feel people who are not working should get more than those in work”*.


What is the point, just what is the point at all?


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## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

weltweit said:


> It is not the aim of the EU to drive workers into penury.



Not stated, no. But if the forces that drive the union require such an outcome, the functionaries will oblige; as in Greece.


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## butchersapron (May 16, 2015)

It certainly is an EU aim  to introduce police  and impose wage reduction/immobility alongside increasing productivity - preferably by writing this into constitutional law - in order to protect capital from even limited democratic control.


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## Pickman's model (May 16, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Really? You think that (what remains of) the Labour 'core' will remain unmoved by their party standing together with Cameron's government? You think a broadly pro-EU sentiment amongst Labour (and former Labour) support will overcome their distaste at bipartisan consensus and campaigning?


i think a plague on all their houses


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## brogdale (May 16, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> i think a plague on all their houses


Difficult to argue with.


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## gosub (May 16, 2015)

steeplejack said:


> I'll be voting to come out as well, if this referendum happens.
> 
> The EU is a bloated, undemocratic, neoliberal happy-clapping outfit these days. I am genuinely sad as ten-fifteen years ago I was a passionate pro-European.
> 
> ...




getting all 'out' to be on the same page for a coherent exit strategy is 'outs' biggest problem.  Followed closely by getting Farage (who the largely "in" media will have on speed dial) to stick to it.  Hard enough de toxifying as it is.


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## Louis MacNeice (May 16, 2015)

Stanley Edwards said:


> I think the almost subliminal, or subconcious influence affects whoever, or whatever you are. You don't actually have to think about it too much. A bit like learning a new language - you very quickly pick-up the vocabularly surrounding your everyday routine. 'Very different cultures' aren't actually very different. No idea what I give, never mind what I take. It is just a very enjoyable journey.



Ever met any well traveled bigots who draw on their wide experience in order to display/give authority to their bigotry?

Louis MacNeice


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## redsquirrel (May 16, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Voting for the UK to leave the EU isn't communities fighting back any more than Scots voting for Scotland to leave the UK was communities fighting back. It is simply siding with one bosses club over another.


I never said it was. Re-read my argument


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 17, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> I never said it was. Re-read my argument


Enlighten me, then. I have re-read your post. You appear to be creating a dichotomy between communities fighting back and putting faith in a bosses club.

But that's a misrepresentation of what people have been saying here. How is voting for the UK to leave the EU 'communities fighting back'? How does it help communities to fight back for the UK to leave the EU?


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## Riklet (May 18, 2015)

Having thought about it a bit over the past year or two, I'm no longer at all convinced the UK leaving the EU would be an effective blow to capital in Europe in the UK.  Nor that it would strengthen leftist politics, lead to any progressive political formations, improve working class people's lives or anything else tbh.  Nor do I reckon millions of Brits would get chucked out of EU countries n no longer get health insurance etc either.  But who knows.

For all the bad things the EU does, freedom of movement and breaking down borders (whilst used and abused by governments) is surely something decent.  And it's something I definitely benefit from, living abroad.  I don't want to see us leave and EU citizens etc getting fucked over in the UK by an increasingly un-checked right wing government, fully in league with capital as per usual.

If anyone thinks that the next day, capital wouldn't have "got round" us leaving the EU, they are kidding themselves.  We'd be keeping the miserable bits and getting rid of a good chunk of the benefits.  Presumably, the only reason why there are rich backers for the leave-the-EU campaign.  That and the fact the Tories know that realistically, there is not going to be a majority voting to leave, it's too much radical change for too little possible pay off. 

I reckon they're pushing it to crush UKIP and the right-wing threat as well as using it as an excuse to renegotate whatever they want with Europe (Human Rights act etc), while staying part of the EU.  But it gives them a stronger hand, a referendum on the cards.  Yes, if we actually left it would fuck the Tory party, but we'd be just, if not more, fucked by British/European capital.  Not seen any evidence or ideas so far to challenge that, tbh. Which is why I'm gonna read all the interesting links etc posted over the next week, worry not!


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## gosub (May 18, 2015)

You couldn't pick a worse time to try and crystallize your opinion.   On the IN side you can't know what will be written on the piece of paper the PM flies back from EUrope clutching, what changes or how meaningful, and on the OUT side there is no agreed idea of what sort of place outside is wanted.   I'd wait more than a week


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## Louis MacNeice (May 18, 2015)

gosub said:


> You couldn't pick a worse time to try and crystallize your opinion.   On the IN side you can't know what will be written on the piece of paper the PM flies back from EUrope clutching, what changes or how meaningful, and *on the OUT side there is no agreed idea of what sort of place outside is wanted*.   I'd wait more than a week



I don't think you are going to get such an agreement. The question is rather what becomes more or less possible IN or OUT. My take is that the possibilities created by an OUT vote are more progressive than those after a IN one.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## gosub (May 18, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I don't think you are going to get such an agreement. The question is rather what becomes more or less possible IN or OUT. My take is that the possibilities created by an OUT vote are more progressive than those after a IN one.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Its nailing jelly to a wall at the moment, with IN the changes range from highly superficial (indicating an EU incapable of reform) to major (wshere the UK's voice would count for little tied to a Federalized EUro area) and OUT could mean anything from falling back on WTO rules for our relationship,or Bilateral agreement, through to EFTA/EEA membership, each alternative offering differing amounts of autonomy and access to the single market.  The less restriction on free movement of goods comes less restriction on immigration.


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## Pickman's model (May 18, 2015)

gosub said:


> Its nailing jelly to a wall at the moment, with IN the changes range from highly superficial (indicating an EU incapable of reform) to major (wshere the UK's voice would count for little tied to a Federalized EUro area) and OUT could mean anything from falling back on WTO rules for our relationship,or Bilateral agreement, through to EFTA/EEA membership, each alternative offering differing amounts of autonomy and access to the single market.  The less restriction on free movement of goods comes less restriction on immigration.


best way to nail jelly to the wall is to freeze it first. hth.


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## Stanley Edwards (May 18, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Ever met any well traveled bigots who draw on their wide experience in order to display/give authority to their bigotry?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



I always carry a pocket mirror for shaving purposes.


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> best way to nail jelly to the wall is to freeze it first. hth.



but it won't even have set til Cameron does his negotiations.   e.g Business for Britain - that the New Statesman has as the Hub of out, most likely provided the tories with their EU tinker with list.  What % of what they want would Cameron have to get for them, to be the hub of IN rather than OUT?


----------



## Idris2002 (May 19, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> so you think it is a bad analogy?
> 
> incidentally, house of lords decisions would, i submit, carry weight on how to interpret laws which carried on being on the statute books. i would not be surprised if pre-treaty house of lords decisions remained precedents for the irish free state. after all, it's not as though the irish free state started off with a _tabula rasa_ as far as laws were concerned, is it. they had to come from somewhere... see e.g. s.73 of the free state constitution and s.50 of the 1937 constitution, which affirmed the validity of laws enacted by westminster from 1801 on, which is at the least suggestive of accepting the validity of h of l rulings as precedents.



Very recently there was a big purge of pre-1922 laws from the Irish statute books, including the one that makes Liz 2 "Queen of Ireland":

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31863846

One thing that I haven't seen addressed is what the status of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965 would be in the event of a Brexit. Would it still apply, and would it allow UK firms a backdoor into the EU? Or would it have been abrogated, de jure or de facto, by the later decision of both of the parties to that agreement to enter the Common Market (as it then was)?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 19, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Very recently there was a big purge of pre-1922 laws from the Irish statute books, including the one that makes Liz 2 "Queen of Ireland":
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31863846
> 
> One thing that I haven't seen addressed is what the status of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965 would be in the event of a Brexit. Would it still apply, and would it allow UK firms a backdoor into the EU? Or would it have been abrogated, de jure or de facto, by the later decision of both of the parties to that agreement to enter the Common Market (as it then was)?


yeh but very recently is still more than 90 years on. and now and again the westminster parliament rustles through the laws of yore and deletes a few of the obviously bollocks ones. dk about the aift1965 i regret.


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2015)

Idris2002 said:


> Very recently there was a big purge of pre-1922 laws from the Irish statute books, including the one that makes Liz 2 "Queen of Ireland":
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31863846
> 
> One thing that I haven't seen addressed is what the status of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965 would be in the event of a Brexit. Would it still apply, and would it allow UK firms a backdoor into the EU? Or would it have been abrogated, de jure or de facto, by the later decision of both of the parties to that agreement to enter the Common Market (as it then was)?



There are some visions of OUT, where UK still has full access to the Single market (the Single Market being a different thing to the EU) so you wouldn't have to fall back on things like that.  As I said, defining OUT is as important as knowing what sort of IN will  be.


ETA:   Norway, Switzerland Turkey even, all have different types of relationship with the EU, no doubt the UK's would be different again (but deciding which of those it would most closely resemble is the question.)  The only rule of thumb I would add, for those who see the whole thing as driven by an immigration issue, is- the less free movement of people, the less free movement of goods and services.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 20, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I don't think you are going to get such an agreement. The question is rather what becomes more or less possible IN or OUT. My take is that the possibilities created by an OUT vote are more progressive than those after a IN one.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Precisely, as usual LM you're bang on the money.



littlebabyjesus said:


> Enlighten me, then. I have re-read your post. You appear to be creating a dichotomy between communities fighting back and putting faith in a bosses club.


I'm not saying that all those who are in favour of staying are liberals but that (in general) the liberal left are in favour of staying in because they are so disengaged from labour that they would rather rely on "enlightened" capital than on the self-organisation of workers.

------------
EDIT: CBI pushing the IN case


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> Precisely, as usual LM you're bang on the money.


Only if you think increased unemployment is "progressive!"


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> ------------
> EDIT: CBI pushing the IN case




Free to do so at the moment.  Presumably once the referendum is called all the Quangos, development boards and other similar bodies that are recipient of EU money will suspend their CBI membership


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 20, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Only if you think increased unemployment is "progressive!"


 
How do you know that withdrawl from the EU will increase unemployment?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 20, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm not saying that all those who are in favour of staying are liberals but that (in general) the liberal left are in favour of staying in because they are so disengaged from labour that they would rather rely on "enlightened" capital than on the self-organisation of workers.


Ok, fair enough. I think I misunderstood you a bit. I agree with this, I express reservations about what would happen if the UK left the EU, but not out of wild, or even extremely tame, enthusiasm for the EU as currently constituted.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 20, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> EDIT: CBI pushing the IN case


Banks pulling out of London en masse?

Doubt that would happen, but it might be one boon from 'Brexit'. Off you fuck then.


----------



## Diamond (May 20, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> It certainly is an EU aim  to introduce police  and impose wage reduction/immobility alongside increasing productivity - preferably by writing this into constitutional law - in order to protect capital from even limited democratic control.


 
Care to back that up with any evidence?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 20, 2015)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I would love the UK to leave the EU ( and NATO - please leave NATO) to pursue socialist policies that would be blocked by EU law. But that's not where we're at. There is zero prospect that this would happen. And you can't just ignore the things that _are_ likely to happen with a post-EU tory/new labour administration.



Surely the point is that any form of socialism is _impossible _inside the EU, whereas at least some variation of social democracy is, in theory, possible outside of it. I guess what I am saying is that democracy is a_ pre-requisite_ for any realistic opposition to Neoliberalism, and that fighting for democracy on a continent-wide scale is unimaginable compared to a UK-wide one.


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 20, 2015)

andysays said:


> As well as the actual arguments for leaving the EU (which I'm largely persuaded by if not 100% convinced) it's also worth bearing in mind the reason we're going to have this referendum in the first place.
> 
> As the thread title suggests, it's a Tory referendum, held in an attempt to overcome a split within the Tory party (and by extension a split within the ruling class), just as the 1975 referendum was an attempt to overcome deep splits within the Labour party*.
> 
> ...



This is a good point that seems to be continuously ignored by some posting here.

It's also worth remembering that we don't get to pick how these battles are structured or when they crop up. We won't decide when the referendum will be.

We'd all much rather have a political alternative ready to go for the post-EU Britain but we don't. We can all agree (at least) that the EU has serious flaws, but we have no mechanism to change those.

So it's a simple choice - line up with the Tories, Labour, the Lib Dems (bet they'll hope to rebuild with this), the SNP, the Greens and all the rest of the pro-EU mob, and leave the anti-establishment territory to UKIP. Or campaign independently of UKIP or whatever the official vote to leave campaign is, and try to inject class politics into the disaffected disenfranchised layer who are going to vote to leave whatever you want to say about the working time directive and who will only hear UKIP's atlanticist bullshit otherwise.


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> How do you know that withdrawl from the EU will increase unemployment?



First, it is most unlikely the EU will permit the UK the same level of open access to its markets (500 million consumers) that we have at the moment, if we vote to leave the EU.

Secondly because a lot of British companies export to continental Europe (the EU) and these jobs will come under various levels of threat on a British exit from the EU.

Thirdly a lot of foreign owned companies have based themselves in the UK because of its ease of doing business AND its free access to the EU market. Many foreign companies will consider relocating into the EU if the UK votes to leave, their jobs will be lost to the UK economy in that case.

And fourthly, companies wanting in the future to invest in Europe to gain access to the EU single market will no longer consider investing in the UK if we have exited the EU.


----------



## Lo Siento. (May 20, 2015)

Had my first Trot trying to persuade me to vote "Stay" yesterday. Gonna be a long 12 months...


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2015)

weltweit said:


> First, it is most unlikely the EU will permit the UK the same level of open access to its markets (500 million consumers) that we have at the moment, if we vote to leave the EU.
> 
> Secondly because a lot of British companies export to continental Europe (the EU) and these jobs will come under various levels of threat on a British exit from the EU.
> 
> ...




Odd then that there are a disproportionate number of companies with their European HQ in Switzerland.  In the the Single market but not in the EU


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2015)

gosub said:


> Odd then that there are a disproportionate number of companies with their European HQ in Switzerland.  In the the Single market but not in the EU


Can you name some of these companies?


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2015)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_Switzerland - thats global HQ though you'll have European HQ on top of that


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2015)

gosub said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_of_Switzerland - thats global HQ though you'll have European HQ on top of that


I don't think a list of what are basically Swiss companies is very persuasive.

On the other hand companies like Matsushita Electric, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Deutshe bank, HSBC, all have European HQs in Britain and may well reevaluate their location on a vote to leave the EU.


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2015)

Airbus 'may reconsider' investment if UK leaves the EU
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-05-20/airbus-may-reconsider-investment-if-uk-leaves-the-eu/


> European aerospace giant Airbus has warned of job losses and "huge" economic risks if Britain votes to leave the European Union in a referendum to be held by 2017.
> 
> A decision to quit the EU would raise doubts about Airbus's long-term future investments in the country, according to President of Airbus Group UK, Paul Kahn. Airbus employs 16,000 people in the UK.


----------



## Diamond (May 20, 2015)

gosub said:


> Odd then that there are a disproportionate number of companies with their European HQ in Switzerland.  In the the Single market but not in the EU



Switzerland is an odd example on which to found a case for exiting the EU.


----------



## gosub (May 21, 2015)

weltweit said:


> I don't think a list of what are basically Swiss companies is very persuasive.
> 
> On the other hand companies like Matsushita Electric, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Deutshe bank, HSBC, all have European HQs in Britain and may well reevaluate their location on a vote to leave the EU.




I can't fault the logic that companies globally HQ'd in Switzerland are Swiss companies. IMO world would be a better place if Nestle confined itself to Switzerland, but you've got mining, oil, shipping, agri business in there, banks including HSBC's private arm.  Regional HQ's you can add the likes of HP, AMD, Proctor and Gamble, Phillip Morris, Eli Lilly, Gillette, Motorola, Oracle...

My own car experiences this year I'm more inclined to disembowel with a blunt spoon the Honda bean counter who signed off using filament resistors rather than ceramic, than let him hold sway on the future of the UK.  The long term future for the car industry looks to be a turbulent one, but it will one where intercontinental differences of opinion over what is more important a spare wheel or miles per gallon will be less significant.


----------



## emanymton (May 22, 2015)

Lo Siento. said:


> Had my first Trot trying to persuade me to vote "Stay" yesterday. Gonna be a long 12 months...


I thought the trot position was leave?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 22, 2015)

multitudinous positionism cmrd


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 22, 2015)

emanymton said:


> I thought the trot position was leave?



We'll probably be able to do pretty scatter graph documenting the various trot positions on this by the end of the referendum. AWL say stay I think. Probably others.


----------



## emanymton (May 22, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> We'll probably be able to do pretty scatter graph documenting the various trot positions on this by the end of the referendum. AWL say stay I think. Probably others.


I don't really like to think of the AWL as trots.

It is interesting that this is an issue that divides both left and right.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2015)

emanymton said:


> I don't really like to think of the AWL as trots.
> 
> It is interesting that this is an issue that divides both left and right.



AWL are more of a cult, surely? Sitting at the feet of The Great Poet, and absorbing his magnificence?


----------



## Lo Siento. (May 22, 2015)

emanymton said:


> I thought the trot position was leave?


It was the AWL (or, more precisely, a fellow traveller of theirs).


----------



## Sifta (May 22, 2015)

Lo Siento. said:


> It was the AWL (or, more precisely, a fellow traveller of theirs).



I seem to remember Matgamna campaigning vigorously for principled abstention in 1975


----------



## crossthebreeze (May 22, 2015)

SP say leave, AWL say stay


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Seems quite a strong emotion to have about something that is basically a trade block.



Were it simply a trade bloc, there would be no problem. The problem is EU generated legislation being taken into UK legislation without our elected parliament having a say. Have a look also at the EU proposals to establish itself as the 'spokesman' for all EU member countries.

We did not sign up for an institution which could override our parliament, but that is what we have. Also remember that EU legislation is generated by an unelected body, really, the European Parliament could dissolve, and not be missed.

The EU is corrupt top the very core. How many businesses would still be trading if the auditors refused to sign off on the accounts? This is what has happened in the EU for years, the auditors will not sign off the accounts.

Despite a deep loathing for the EU, I will be voting to stay in. France and Germany (the EU rulers) are extraordinarily vindictive, those who feel that we could leave and enter a Switzerland type arrangement may be deluded.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2015)

Sasaferrato said:


> Were it simply a trade bloc, there would be no problem. The problem is EU generated legislation being taken into UK legislation without our elected parliament having a say. Have a look also at the EU proposals to establish itself as the 'spokesman' for all EU member countries.
> 
> We did not sign up for an institution which could override our parliament, but that is what we have. Also remember that EU legislation is generated by an unelected body, really, the European Parliament could dissolve, and not be missed.
> 
> ...


The state, in the persons of Heath, Wilson, Thatcher and Major signed up to precisely those things.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2015)

brogdale said:


> The state, in the persons of Heath, Wilson, Thatcher and Major signed up to precisely those things.



By 'we' I mean the people of the country. Our political leaders have been serially dishonest about our relationship with the EU.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2015)

Sasaferrato said:


> By 'we' I mean the people of the country. Our political leaders have been serially dishonest about our relationship with the EU.


That sounds like a democratic deficit in this state, let alone in the supra-national entity.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2015)

brogdale said:


> That sounds like a democratic deficit in this state, let alone in the supra-national entity.


that's the sort of deficit which should have been cut over the past five years. five wasted years.


----------



## xenon (May 22, 2015)

Oops.
http://www.theguardian.com/business...skforce-investigates-financial-fallout-brexit

"
Bank of England officials are secretly researching the financial shocks that could hit Britain if there is a vote to leave the European Union in the forthcoming referendum.

The Bank blew its cover on Friday when it accidentally emailed details of the project – including how the bank intended to fend off any inquiries about its work – direct to the Guardian.

According to the confidential email, the press and most staff in Threadneedle Street must be kept in the dark about the work underway, which has been dubbed Project Bookend. 

It spells out that if anyone asks about the project, the taskforce must say the investigation has nothing to do with the referendum, saying only that staff are involved in examining “a broad range of European economic issues” that concern the Bank.
"


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2015)

Johnny foreigner pisses on Cameron's frites....



> *Germany and France have forged a pact to integrate the eurozone without reopening the EU’s treaties, in a blow to David Cameron’s referendum campaign.*
> 
> Sidestepping Britain’s demands to renegotiate the Lisbon treaty and Britain’s place in the EU, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French president, François Hollande, have sealed an agreement aimed at fashioning a tighter political union among the single-currency countries while operating within the confines of the existing treaty.


Lol


----------



## agricola (May 25, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Johnny foreigner pisses on Cameron's frites....



Not sure that they have - TBH further political integration of the eurozone (especially if its done in so shabby a way as that) probably makes Cameron's position stronger.


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2015)

agricola said:


> Not sure that they have - TBH further political integration of the eurozone (especially if its done in so shabby a way as that) probably makes Cameron's position stronger.


Assuming his desired outcome is...?


----------



## agricola (May 26, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Assuming his desired outcome is...?



Britain still in the EU, but still outside of the euro in a position that he will be able to claim the credit for defining.


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2015)

agricola said:


> Britain still in the EU, but still outside of the euro in a position that he will be able to claim the credit for defining.


Have to say that I'm more with the Guardian take on this one. The trajectory of this move to tighter political union is the direct opposite of the looser trade-based area that Dave espouses, and has to be a signal of the game-plan of the federalists. Added to which this sort of Franco-German superstate snuggling up is just the sort of thing that will repulse sections of the UK electorate. Remember, Dave's paymasters demand a "stay-in" vote...this sort of malarky ain't gonna help him deliver.


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2015)

agricola said:


> Britain still in the EU, but still outside of the euro in a position that he will be able to claim the credit for defining.


Laissez faire fixes to the EUro,have led us to one nation admitting bankruptcy, and a whole load of others facing bills they never cleared with their electorates.  Tethering ourselves to a sinking ship which thinks some sort of clever deckchair rearrangement will do, is not a good look.   The IN alternative of associate membership is government by fax though.


Leave the EU, stay in the Single market and show up Farage for the gad fly he is with his planless trade without immigration.


----------



## agricola (May 26, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Have to say that I'm more with the Guardian take on this one. The trajectory of this move to tighter political union is the direct opposite of the looser trade-based area that Dave espouses, and has to be a signal of the game-plan of the federalists. Added to which this sort of Franco-German superstate snuggling up is just the sort of thing that will repulse sections of the UK electorate. Remember, Dave's paymasters demand a "stay-in" vote...this sort of malarky ain't gonna help him deliver.



Well yes, but the point is surely that the Franco-German pact only affects the Eurozone *and *they are claiming it wont require a treaty change.  

Given that we arent (and are not likely to be anytime soon) in the eurozone, the inevitable outcome of their deal if it works is that as the political eurozone becomes closer the field will be left open to Cameron to define what relationship a non-eurozone EU member state would have with the rest of the EU.  That gives him the chance to set out his demands (whatever they are), and gives him a very good change of getting them accepted (given that they are not going to be in a position to say _"well, here is what the relationship is, either like it or get out"_ given the current state of the EU and its likely state over the next three or four years).


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2015)

agricola said:


> Well yes, but the point is surely that the Franco-German pact only affects the Eurozone *and *they are claiming it wont require a treaty change.
> 
> Given that we arent (and are not likely to be anytime soon) in the eurozone, the inevitable outcome of their deal if it works is that as the political eurozone becomes closer the field will be left open to Cameron to define what relationship a non-eurozone EU member state would have with the rest of the EU.  That gives him the chance to set out his demands (whatever they are), and gives him a very good change of getting them accepted (given that they are not going to be in a position to say _"well, here is what the relationship is, either like it or get out"_ given the current state of the EU and its likely state over the next three or four years).


I'm sure that Cameron will seek to spin it in that way, but the crucial words in that quote I posted are...


> Germany and France have forged a pact to integrate the eurozone *without reopening the EU’s treaties*, in a blow to David Cameron’s referendum campaign.
> 
> *Sidestepping Britain’s demands to renegotiate the Lisbon treaty and Britain’s place in the EU,* the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French president, François Hollande, have sealed an agreement aimed at fashioning a tighter political union among the single-currency countries while operating within the confines of the existing treaty.



You see what they're saying to Dave?


----------



## SaskiaJayne (May 26, 2015)

I think the vote will be to stay in the EU for the same reason the Scots voted no to independance, the Tories won the election & the 2011 referendum kept first past the post voting. Voters won't vote for uncertainty & the unknown.


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2015)

SaskiaJayne said:


> I think the vote will be to stay in the EU for the same reason the Scots voted no to independance, the Tories won the election & the 2011 referendum kept first past the post voting. Voters won't vote for uncertainty & the unknown.


Well yes, the inherent conservatism of the UK electorate is the 'conventional wisdom' that Dave's policy relies upon if he is to succeed. As I've posted before, the most recent polling would tend to support that 'wisdom'...







...but, with all the usual and more current caveats about polling evidence, it is worth noting quite how volatile the 'In/Out' responses are and how, for most of the last parliament, the polling favoured 'out'.

Obviously faced with the stark reality of the ballot paper the voting may well revert strongly to the status quo, but this is, of course, untested ground and I really don't think comparison to the Indyref is terribly helpful.

There are any number of variables that might swing these indicated voting patterns over the next year or two before the referendum, but one that strikes me as a potentially unknown factor is how the UK electorate will react to the sight of all the mainstream parties lining up to tell them what to do. I can imagine that in such a situation Farage's 'out' traction will increase considerably.


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2015)

agricola said:


> Well yes, but the point is surely that the Franco-German pact only affects the Eurozone *and *they are claiming it wont require a treaty change.
> 
> Given that we arent (and are not likely to be anytime soon) in the eurozone, the inevitable outcome of their deal if it works is that as the political eurozone becomes closer the field will be left open to Cameron to define what relationship a non-eurozone EU member state would have with the rest of the EU.  That gives him the chance to set out his demands (whatever they are), and gives him a very good change of getting them accepted (given that they are not going to be in a position to say _"well, here is what the relationship is, either like it or get out"_ given the current state of the EU and its likely state over the next three or four years).


FWIW the Telegraph also reads this as a blow to Dave's ambitions...



> Germany and France have agreed a pact to bring the Eurozone closer together *without the need for treaty change in a potential blow to Britain's plans for EU reform.*
> 
> Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, and Francois Hollande, the French President, have reached an agreement to create a closer union within the bounds of existing EU treaties.
> 
> The pact, which is due to be presented at an EU summit next month, *could limit David Cameron's room for manoeuvre as he tries to claw back powers from Brussels ahead of a referendum on Britain's membership.*


----------



## pocketscience (May 26, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Well yes, the inherent conservatism of the UK electorate is the 'conventional wisdom' that Dave's policy relies upon if he is to succeed. As I've posted before, the most recent polling would tend to support that 'wisdom'...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The iminent bankrupcy of Greece and the impacts that'll have on the German banks and therefore their economy might well be the major tipping point for UK voters to choose to leave.


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> The iminent bankrupcy of Greece and the impacts that'll have on the German banks and therefore their economy might well be the major tipping point for UK voters to choose to leave.




Not just the banks, the EUrozone member states, have some MAJOR bond liabilities if Greece defaults.   As much as Germany doesn't want it, Federal Union is the only real way forward for EUrozone


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2015)

Really doesn't look like the Frermans are playing ball with Dave!



> France and Germany are pushing *plans to introduce a minimum corporation tax rate across the continent, it was reported today*, in a move that could result in higher taxes on British companies.
> 
> European officials will debate plans to set a EU-wide floor on corporation tax in order to crack down on tax havens such as Ireland and Luxembourg, it emerged.
> 
> The plans are a direct challenge to David Cameron, who is calling for sovereignty to be returned to EU members.




Lol


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2015)

Just you wait until Dave, takes off his jacket and rolls his shirt sleeves up or better still, a law saying corporation tax can't rise, on a stone tablet maybe


----------



## Stay Beautiful (May 27, 2015)

Went to my Labour Party branch last night (Yes, I know, I KNOW! ) and they all appeared to be under the impression that Cameron and the Tory leadership want this referendum so Britain can come out. They'll therefore be campaigning to stay in the EU on the basis that the EU will keep Cameron and the Tories in check. I suggested they might be very disappointed in the near future.... meanwhile, if this is the prevailing attitude in the party (and I suspect it is), I think UKIP will be getting their mop ready...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2015)

this has probably been answered somewhere above, but does anyone know why they're going at this like a bull in a china shop?


----------



## pocketscience (May 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> this has probably been answered somewhere above, but does anyone know why they're going at this like a bull in a china shop?


I guess it's something to do with the timing - to coincide with the end game of the Greece vs Eu negotiations.
The Eu's invested so much effort to negotiate the survival of an EU net recipient, I reckon Cameron thinks that he'll have an easier ride with them negotiating a better deal for the UK as a net contributor on the back of those greek negotiations
I could imagine the Eu has some kind of negotiation fatigue too, which he thinks will play into his hands.


----------



## gosub (May 27, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> this has probably been answered somewhere above, but does anyone know why they're going at this like a bull in a china shop?


market uncertainty= cost	  
german and french elections limit timeframe


----------



## pocketscience (May 27, 2015)

I've been following the German press on this topic for a while now, mostly in Die Zeit & Der Spiegel.
I've noticed an interesting turnaround in the readers comments/ forum sections in articles about Brexit recently.
Previously, say before 6 months ago, most readers comments were sarcastically along the lines of "well, goodbye UK - was nice knowing you" etc.
Nowadays there seems to be genuine respect for the democratic nature of a referendum and even envy for the UK public.

Latest example here:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausla...-a-1035824.html#js-article-comments-box-pager


----------



## youngian (May 27, 2015)

What this referendum will provide is a platform for every bored egotistical ex-boss to give us their considered opinion on the subject. Out of the traps the other night was former M&S boss Sir Stuart Rose arguing for withdrawal. Well if this was a debate about mid-market high street retail he'd be my go-to man. But what the fuck does he know about geopolitics or cultural and political aspirations any more than any other bloke down the pub. Bosses are not leaders and if the Pro-EU camp is going to allow its discourse to be dominated by CBI bean counters (important though their contribution is) as well no one will be inspired to turn out to vote for this referendum apart from nationalist headbangers from UKIP. And they would live in tent to leave so economic empiricism won't sway them. And there is dishonesty in British politics that there is a box with economics in it and a separate box containing politics. If you control trade you control politics, just ask Putin's near-abroad. Or anyone who has been British colonial subject.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 27, 2015)

youngian said:


> And if the Pro-EU camp is going to allow its discourse to be dominated by CBI bean counters (important though their contribution is) no one will be inspired to turn out to vote for this referendum apart from nationalist headbangers from UKIP.



Dunno. The fear discourse put about by mid-market retailers and their mates ended up beating all the romantic nationalist headbanging bollocks in Scotland. There's a good argument to the effect that a boring pro-EU campaign that focuses on the potential risks of Brexit is a much better idea than selling the inspirational stuff about international brotherhood.


----------



## youngian (May 27, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Dunno. The fear discourse put about by mid-market retailers and their mates ended up beating all the romantic nationalist headbanging bollocks in Scotland. There's a good argument to the effect that a boring pro-EU campaign that focuses on the potential risks of Brexit is a much better idea than selling the inspirational stuff about international brotherhood.


That's a point well made but a referendum on Scotland is more immediate to the Scots than the EU where there is less of emotional involvement. I would like to see more of Alex Salmond's passion fronting this campaign as he has Mr dull bank manager Alistair Darling on his side to back him up this time. And the second lesson of Scotland is if this referendum is won but it is close due to a low turnout, UKIP will never bloody go away. And a heavy defeat of EU withdrawal by the sceptical Brits sends a message to all nationalist forces on the march across Europe.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 27, 2015)

youngian said:


> And the second lesson of Scotland is if this referendum is won but it is close due to a low turnout, UKIP will never bloody go away.



Yes, that's very true.


----------



## pocketscience (May 27, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Dunno. The fear discourse put about by mid-market retailers and their mates ended up beating all the romantic nationalist headbanging bollocks in Scotland. There's a good argument to the effect that a boring pro-EU campaign that focuses on the potential risks of Brexit is a much better idea than selling the inspirational stuff about international brotherhood.


at the moment, its the Eu and particularly the EZ economy that's doing most the necessary PR for the out campaign


----------



## weltweit (May 27, 2015)

youngian said:


> What this referendum will provide is a platform for every bored egotistical ex-boss to give us their considered opinion on the subject. Out of the traps the other night was former M&S boss Sir Stuart Rose arguing for withdrawal. Well if this was a debate about mid-market high street retail he'd be my go-to man. But what the fuck does he know about geopolitics or cultural and political aspirations any more than any other bloke down the pub. Bosses are not leaders and if the Pro-EU camp is going to allow its discourse to be dominated by CBI bean counters (important though their contribution is) as well no one will be inspired to turn out to vote for this referendum apart from nationalist headbangers from UKIP. And they would live in tent to leave so economic empiricism won't sway them. And there is dishonesty in British politics that there is a box with economics in it and a separate box containing politics. If you control trade you control politics, just ask Putin's near-abroad. Or anyone who has been British colonial subject.


First you say Rose was arguing for an exit then complain that CBI beancounters might dominate the stay campaign. Confused.


----------



## youngian (May 27, 2015)

weltweit said:


> First you say Rose was arguing for an exit then complain that CBI beancounters might dominate the stay campaign. Confused.


Yes I'm saying I don't wish to hear bosses from either side frame the discourse, just make a contribution to the big picture. And some are very good at it and have a bit of a wider perspective than just number crunching.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 27, 2015)

weltweit said:


> First you say Rose was arguing for an exit then complain that CBI beancounters might dominate the stay campaign. Confused.



There are business people on both sides of the fence and they are likely to dominate the economic debate. And for some reason, retailers have a particular hold over the public imagination, even though bankers or professional services firms would probably have more interesting things to say.


----------



## youngian (May 27, 2015)

And the anti camp just sound like a load of spivs moaning about Brussels employment directives. Yes that's right they think British workers have too many rights.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2015)

youngian said:


> And the anti camp just sound like a load of spivs moaning about Brussels employment directives. Yes that's right they think British workers have too many rights.


What's the anti-camp? How much of it do you estimate think that British workers have too many rights?


----------



## youngian (May 27, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> What's the anti-camp? How much of it do you estimate think that British workers have too many rights?


Its a reference to business people who want to leave the EU and they are not arguing for the same reasons as Tony Benn was for withdrawal. They are in a minority as anyone who can't compete on a level playing field and blames a few basic labour commitments for their failings isn't up too much.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2015)

youngian said:


> Its a reference to business people who want to leave the EU and they are not arguing for the same reasons as Tony Benn was for withdrawal.


Why call it the anti-camp then?  You know it's not true and you know damn well the only outcome is to smear a whole load of others who oppose the EU. This is what we have to look forward to though i suppose.


----------



## youngian (May 27, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Why call it the anti-camp then?  You know it's not true and you know damn well the only outcome is to smear a whole load of others who oppose the EU. This is what we have to look forward to though i suppose.


How about pro-withdrawal camp?


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2015)

youngian said:


> How about pro-withdrawal camp?


Call stuff what you want - just make it accurate and non-smeary.


----------



## youngian (May 27, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Call stuff what you want - just make it accurate and non-smeary.


Did anti-camp sound homophobic? 

And I'm well aware of the variety of views on both sides. 

But those who maybe persuaded to vote to leave the EU are not going to do so by a desire to drag Arthur Scargill out of retirement and build a socialist planned economy. 

Or David Bellamy's arguments about the CAP reducing the song thrush population.


----------



## gosub (May 27, 2015)

Is Bellamy doing that?  I heard him give that speech 19 years ago and it was relevant, CAP has been reformed twice since then.   Out needs a good shake up


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2015)

youngian said:


> Did anti-camp sound homophobic?
> 
> And I'm well aware of the variety of views on both sides.
> 
> ...


You didn't sound like you're _well aware_ when you said that the anti-camp is _anti-workers rights_. If you _are _aware then it's even worse. Enjoy your referendum. Thanks for starting us off on such an elevated level.


----------



## hot air baboon (May 27, 2015)

pocketscience said:


> at the moment, its the Eu and particularly the EZ economy that's doing most the necessary PR for the out campaign



.....you would think so but the Greece horror-show has been grinding on for yonks now, alongside the less spectacular recessions in Italy and France which have amply demonstrated to the fullest extent imaginable the in-built design faults of the EZ but given all that the state of public opinion doesn't seem to be showing any hardening of opinion against the EU....wehter this reflects some emergent body of pro-EU sentiment or epic levels of uninterest & disengagement in economic affairs the other side of the Channel is actually quite key to taking any sort of view on how this pans out & in what way opinion is actually mobilised into votes...



Maurice Picarda said:


> The fear discourse put about by mid-market retailers and their mates ended up beating all the romantic nationalist headbanging bollocks in Scotland.
> 
> There's a good argument to the effect that a boring pro-EU campaign that focuses on the potential risks of Brexit is a much better idea than selling the inspirational stuff about international brotherhood.



....well arguably the - ahem - _"...romantic nationalist headbanging bollocks..." _was actually highly effective in building the energy and momentum behind their campaign to actually _*get them *_to that 45%.....the pro-independence share had been flat-lining somewhere in the low 30's for a considerable period iirc but they turned that round to such an extent that everyone actually took that late rogue poll showing them ahead extremely seriously...

....unfortuantely for the pro-EU lobby the option of getting some fist-pumping Salmond-style band-wagon rolling on the back of something like a single-market for financial services or whatever clearly isn't going to happen...

...whilst I grudgingly admit I think the No's have an uphill task the factors that could run in their favour are :

I really don't see much in the way of real enthusiasm or positive engagement with the EU as an idea/ideal in the UK vs what you can still see amongst some sections of opinion elsewhere in Europe that will actually turn some vague & fairly apathetic sentiment that we probably ought to just go along with it into an active Yes vote...

.....proposing to just basically re-run a 1975-vintage pro EU campaign about the advantages of joining a trading block can be shown up as pretty disingenous given the evolution of the EU since it was just a "common market"....

...the fact that many tons of boiler-plate doom-mongering ( ...._trains-leaving-stations.... place-at-the-table....millions of jobs...etc etc...._ ) was churned out by exactly the same usual suspects who are presumably even now being dusted off and having their circuitry tested by men in white coats ( supercilious twats like Adair Turner ) over how incredibly vital it apparently was that we entered the euro......the repetition of an argument already shown up to be false & indeed hugely misguided in the previous circumstance may well have innoculated people to some of its effect even if arguably it is more valid in an in-or-out of EU case rather than just an EZ case.....

....they will certainly be praying that the beloved St Tony proves unable to contain himself from launching a dramatic intervention in the form of some lip quivering sermon from on high if the flock start straying towards the open gate...


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## youngian (May 27, 2015)

hot air baboon said:


> ....well arguably the - ahem - _"...romantic nationalist headbanging bollocks..." _was actually highly effective in building the energy and momentum behind their campaign to actually _*get them *_to that 45%.....the pro-independence share had been flat-lining somewhere in the low 30's for a considerable period iirc but they turned that round to such an extent that everyone actually took that late rogue poll showing them ahead extremely seriously...
> 
> ....unfortuantely for the pro-EU lobby the option of getting some fist-pumping Salmond-style band-wagon rolling on the back of something like a single-market for financial services or whatever clearly isn't going to happen.


I was saying this earlier that the Yes campaign is in need of Salmond's more passionate approach and this time dull Mr Darling will be backing him. For those of us that believe in the project it is the most remarkable development of 20th century Europe. But an idealism founded on a very simple and boring premise to end centuries of failed balance of power politics that always ended in misery; what can we do together? and we can leave the table when we've got a deal. The single market is part of the jigsaw that has bought institutionalised peace. For an audience today, the Pole doing the plumbing was aiming nuclear warheads at you 30 yrs ago is a good entry point to discuss the geopolitical and cultural heart of what the EU is about. Strangely the man most associated with bringing about this reality Jean Monnet was not a high faluting intellectual either but an Anglophile French brandy salesman.


----------



## brogdale (May 28, 2015)

The wording of the referendum question.....



> *Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?*


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## SpackleFrog (May 28, 2015)

So that's the 'No' camp that _obviously _thinks British workers have too many rights is it?

I mean, we're all _well aware._


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 28, 2015)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Went to my Labour Party branch last night (Yes, I know, I KNOW! ) and they all appeared to be under the impression that Cameron and the Tory leadership want this referendum so Britain can come out. They'll therefore be campaigning to stay in the EU on the basis that the EU will keep Cameron and the Tories in check. I suggested they might be very disappointed in the near future.... meanwhile, if this is the prevailing attitude in the party (and I suspect it is), I think UKIP will be getting their mop ready...



Surely somebody in the Labour Party must realise that lining up with the Tories for a referendum twice in three years could potentially decimate them?


----------



## brogdale (May 28, 2015)

SpackleFrog said:


> Surely somebody in the Labour Party must realise that lining up with the Tories for a referendum twice in three years could potentially decimate them?


Quite. If they campaign as a party either outcome has the potential to do them damage. Being on the winning "Yes" campaign allied with the vermin high command has the chance of creating a Scots-style "Pasoking" from the electorate, whilst being on a losing side with Cameron could well cast them as twice-over irrelevant losers. IMO it would have been wise to just accept the reality of the vermin's referendum and immediately declare an 'free-vote' for LP MPs in the campaign and let the electorate decide.


----------



## weltweit (May 28, 2015)

Someone on the continent (I was only half listening alright!) suggested that rather than a Yes or No question the referendum should ask:

The UK should remain in the European Union.
or
The UK should leave the European Union.

For some reason they thought that was better.


----------



## brogdale (May 28, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Someone on the continent (I was only half listening alright!) suggested that rather than a Yes or No question the referendum should ask:
> 
> The UK should remain in the European Union.
> or
> ...


Do you agree?


----------



## youngian (May 28, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Do you agree?


They were discussing neutral questions on the radio and an example of even a simple proposition has complexities; Yes and No are easy for slogans, leave is OK but remain sounds terrible. Stay is not so bad though.


----------



## weltweit (May 28, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Do you agree?


I don't know enough about the effect of different phraseology on results to know.


----------



## SpackleFrog (May 28, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Someone on the continent (I was only half listening alright!) suggested that rather than a Yes or No question the referendum should ask:
> 
> The UK should remain in the European Union.
> or
> ...



That would certainly mildly increase the vote to leave, simply for including the word leave as an option - I understand the question currently is "should Britain remain part of the EU?".

Worth remembering that most people will think about this as a vote over whether to leave the EU and therefore if they want to they'll go in thinking they're going to vote yes. Giving people the choice of two statements avoids confusion and gives a more accurate poll of feeling.


----------



## magneze (May 29, 2015)

Isn't it more to do with people's natural inclination to vote Yes. Everyone wants to be the Yes campaign as it's automatically seen as a more positive message.


----------



## butchersapron (May 29, 2015)

magneze said:


> Isn't it more to do with people's natural inclination to vote Yes. Everyone wants to be the Yes campaign as it's automatically seen as a more positive message.


Most referendums are won by NO i think.


----------



## magneze (May 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Most referendums are won by NO i think.


Interesting, I wonder why that is.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 29, 2015)

magneze said:


> Isn't it more to do with people's natural inclination to vote Yes. Everyone wants to be the Yes campaign as it's automatically seen as a more positive message.


you only need to look how well 'yes' did recently in scotland to see how true that is


----------



## butchersapron (May 29, 2015)

magneze said:


> Interesting, I wonder why that is.


I'm trying to find some stats to back that up. And of course you'd need to distinguish between different levels of referenda - from large independence or constitutional ones (and you'd have to place these within wider historical contexts as well for example the formal winding down of the british empire) to US style local or social/civil ones. I may well be wrong that the status quo position tends to win, but i'm sure i read something useful on this during the scottish one - will try and find it again.


----------



## butchersapron (May 29, 2015)

magneze said:


> Interesting, I wonder why that is.


I also think british people just like saying no..._No to hitler _etc brings out all the myths of defiance and resistance...


----------



## Santino (May 29, 2015)




----------



## magneze (May 29, 2015)

Argh!


----------



## treelover (May 29, 2015)

youngian said:


> I was saying this earlier that the Yes campaign is in need of Salmond's more passionate approach and this time dull Mr Darling will be backing him. For those of us that believe in the project it is the most remarkable development of 20th century Europe. But an idealism founded on a very simple and boring premise to end centuries of failed balance of power politics that always ended in misery; what can we do together? and we can leave the table when we've got a deal. The single market is part of the jigsaw that has bought institutionalised peace. For an audience today, the Pole doing the plumbing was aiming nuclear warheads at you 30 yrs ago is a good entry point to discuss the geopolitical and cultural heart of what the EU is about. Strangely the man most associated with bringing about this reality Jean Monnet was not a high faluting intellectual either but an Anglophile French brandy salesman.




There are plenty of ex military on here who can remember the propaganda films they were shown with these strange young men with shaved heads and flower power shirts who wanted to kill you, now as others say, they do the plumbing for you.


----------



## butchersapron (May 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> There are plenty of ex military on here who can remember the propaganda films they were shown with these strange young men with shaved heads and flower power shirts who wanted to kill you, now as others say, they do the plumbing for you.


Who saw these films?


----------



## gentlegreen (May 29, 2015)

Ex-pats who can vote in national elections will be barred from voting in this one.

http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/eu-referendum-votes-for-all


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## treelover (May 29, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Who saw these films?



Nearly every squaddie. sailor, etc,  between 1950 and 1989 who passed through basic training.


----------



## butchersapron (May 29, 2015)

treelover said:


> Nearly every squaddie. sailor, etc,  between 1950 and 1989 who passed through basic training.


Show me these films. 1950s sailors looking at flower power.


----------



## treelover (May 29, 2015)

In the 80's the young Russian/eastern bloc conscripts wore shirts ten/fifteen years out of fashion in the west.

btw, that was the one shown to me, ok.


----------



## youngian (May 30, 2015)

treelover said:


> In the 80's the young Russian/eastern bloc conscripts wore shirts ten/fifteen years out of fashion in the west.
> 
> btw, that was the one shown to me, ok.


Also seen twiddling knobs at hydro-electric dams in Soviet propaganda films

There was a Spitting Image sketch of Gorbachev dressed like the Small Faces proving beyond doubt he's the grooviest Russian premier in history. By becoming a world leader in psychedelic cosmicness.


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2015)

Smithson has posted quite a useful piece on the prospects for the 'No' campaign demonstrating the importance of turn-out and differential levels of disaffection by age cohort.

Put simply, Smithson suggests that low levels of engagement with the issue might well translate in low turn-out figures for the referendum, allowing the (anti-EU) older cohorts to disproportionately affect the result. Worthy of consideration I'd have felt. 

For context it includes this graph of Ipsos Mori's polling over on the 'issue of Europe' over the last 18 years.


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2015)

Didn't take long for 'the bastards', and their loyal organ, to start trouble-making for Dave....


> Cabinet ministers are warning *there will be a second referendum on whether the UK should quit the European Union if David Cameron fails to win a radical new deal in Brussels*....
> A major split has now opened up between Mr Cameron and ministers who want to be free to campaign for Britain to leave the EU if they do not like the new deal that the Prime Minister negotiates...
> One member of his Cabinet has warned that *the promised “in/out” referendum in 2017 will not be “the end game” if voters choose to remain in a seriously flawed EU. A second referendum could be held as early as 2020*, the minister said.



All very illogical, but fun to watch nonetheless.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 31, 2015)

Stay Beautiful said:


> Went to my Labour Party branch last night (Yes, I know, I KNOW! ) and they all appeared to be under the impression that Cameron and the Tory leadership want this referendum so Britain can come out.


Really? Why, Cameron's even said that he'd vote to stay in. What are they basing this nonsense on


----------



## youngian (May 31, 2015)

Who said Cameron has no allies in Europe
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/french-national-front-backs-tories-5781221


----------



## emanymton (May 31, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> Really? Why, Cameron's even said that he'd vote to stay in. What are they basing this nonsense on


They are in the Labour party you can't expect these people to have and grasp or understanding of politics.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 31, 2015)

gentlegreen said:


> Ex-pats who can vote in national elections will be barred from voting in this one.
> 
> http://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/eu-referendum-votes-for-all


Eh? Your link says the exact opposite, that the current plan is that people who can vote in general elections will be able to vote in the referendum,


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> Eh? Your link says the exact opposite, that the current plan is that people who can vote in general elections will be able to vote in the referendum,


Yes, the only 'news' here is that the the vermin have gone back on Shappsy's pledge from last year to remove any time of residency from the ex-pat franchise; they've kept it at 15 years.


----------



## J Ed (May 31, 2015)

Hah! I mentioned upthread that this would happen.

Rupert Murdoch does U-turn on Europe and says 'We must stay in': Huge boost for Prime Minister as media mogul abandons campaign for a 'Brexit' in 2017


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 31, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Hah! I mentioned upthread that this would happen.
> 
> Rupert Murdoch does U-turn on Europe and says 'We must stay in': Huge boost for Prime Minister as media mogul abandons campaign for a 'Brexit' in 2017



Clever of you; it's enormously surprising given his prior stance.


----------



## youngian (May 31, 2015)

I was sceptical Murdoch would misbehave as a No would undermine Cameron's leadership and see a Tory civil war. Whatever the Sun editor thinks about Brussels bananas is irrelevant he'll do as his told.


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2015)

youngian said:


> I was sceptical Murdoch would misbehave as a No would undermine Cameron's leadership and see a Tory civil war. Whatever the Sun editor thinks about Brussels bananas is irrelevant he'll do as his told.



It'll have to be a number of factors including his rule of backing 'winners', a desire not to damage Cameron/vermin high command, not to be out of step with the demands of financial capital and most of all he must now be convinced that he has nothing to fear from EU based regulation on competition etc. Either that, or he really does have no new designs on further UK media domination.


----------



## Stay Beautiful (May 31, 2015)

redsquirrel said:


> Really? Why, Cameron's even said that he'd vote to stay in. What are they basing this nonsense on



Cameron has said he wants the EU to extend from the Atlantic to the Ural Mountains! I've now seen the same comments on some Labour groups. Again, I think they're going to be proper disappointed to end up on the same side as him.


----------



## weltweit (May 31, 2015)

Stay Beautiful said:


> .. I think they're going to be proper disappointed to end up on the same side as him.


I expect there are going to be quite a few uncomfortable bedfellows on both sides of this debate.
Perhaps they will try to keep their distance while arguing for the same result for different reasons.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (May 31, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Perhaps they will try to keep their distance while arguing for the same result for different reasons.



If there was one lesson from Scotland . . .


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2015)

weltweit said:


> I expect there are going to be quite a few uncomfortable bedfellows on both sides of this debate.
> Perhaps they will try to keep their distance while arguing for the same result for different reasons.


You think that they have different reasons?


----------



## weltweit (May 31, 2015)

brogdale said:


> You think that they have different reasons?


Ukippers will want out because 1) they don't like immigrants and 2) they want to save money
Others will want out because they don't like the undemocratic nature of the EU
Right wing tories will be little Englanders
etc

While on the in side, I expect most business leaders and capitalists
probably the majority of the conservative party
unions
the labour party
and the SNP


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2015)

weltweit said:


> Ukippers will want out because 1) they don't like immigrants and 2) they want to save money
> Others will want out because they don't like the undemocratic nature of the EU
> Right wing tories will be little Englanders
> etc
> ...


Stay was specifically referring to the vermin/Labour bedfellows. Is there any distance to be kept? Do they have differing reasons for "in"?


----------



## weltweit (May 31, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Stay was specifically referring to the vermin/Labour bedfellows. Is there any distance to be kept? Do they have differing reasons for "in"?


Well perhaps there is less difference between them than they might like....
I always thought if a coalition had been needed the most logical one would have been between the tories and labour.
But with the SNP there is some difference no?


----------



## toblerone3 (May 31, 2015)

eta...nah


----------



## brogdale (Jun 1, 2015)

Early boost for "no" campaign....


> Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, has said *he is confident Britain will not vote to leave the EU.*
> 
> *David Cameron’s motive in holding a referendum was to make Britain’s membership permanent*, Mr Juncker said in an interview with a German newspaper.
> 
> ...



Safe to say that Jean-Claude does not really comprehend the 'island mentality', then?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 1, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Early boost for "no" campaign....
> ​
> Safe to say that Jean-Claude does not really comprehend the 'island mentality', then?



Honestly I'd be astonished if he were wrong. Then again I would never, ever have predicted a Tory majority government...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 1, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Honestly I'd be astonished if he were wrong. Then again I would never, ever have predicted a Tory majority government...


Yeah, but it wasn't his predictive capability that caught my eye....more the arrogance of the pronouncements. I can't imagine that such stuff will play well with many punters...this is just the sort of elite group-think that might well encourage voters to regard the vote as an opportunity to kick the elite.


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## gimesumtruf (Jun 14, 2015)

Choosing the best option now is like playing darts when you are blind drunk  or swimming in sinking sand .
We can't find decent people to run our own affairs fairly  never mind letting 27 other countries have a go .
They tell us it's putting an end to wars but they just use a slow financial death instead .
It's been heart breaking watching what is being done to Greece and others , just for this I want out, I'll take my chance with a 5/4 year election cycle, thank you very much . 
Come on, EU the way it's structured now is a clusterfuck .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2015)

Reason to vote to leave the EU #23: Nick Clegg's just popped up on LBC for his first post-election interview. Afterwards the talking heads mused as to where he'll pop up next and the consensus was as an MEP. Not if we're out of the EU he fucking won't


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## brogdale (Sep 2, 2015)

New polling on 'old' question wording...


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## brogdale (Jan 1, 2016)

Seems somehow appropriate to bump this thread as we may actually be invited to the polling booths this year.

Tim Montgomery makes an interesting NY observation about the shadow that the referendum is casting over domestic policy decisions....


> My most recent error was to predict that George Osborne would dispense tough medicine in his Autumn Statement. On this site I set out my expectation that he would announce deep cuts. He didn’t. Instead he gambled on growth. In both the pace of deficit reduction and also in the way he has cut defence, the police and infrastructure spending in order to raise spending on pensions, the NHS and aid, the Chancellor is looking a bit too Keynesian and, well, a bit too Balls-ian. I made my prediction because *new governments normally like to implement painful and unpopular measures early in the parliament and then start dispensing goodies closer to polling day. This government is behaving differently because the outcome of the In/Out referendum (likely to be held in June 2016) may well determine David Cameron’s place in history and is uppermost in his mind. He risks Britain’s membership of the EU if he’s an unpopular mid-term prime minister at the time he is recommending Britain should vote to “remain” (as he certainly will). I underestimated Downing Street’s determination to organise everything in terms of avoiding Brexit. The go-slow on cuts, the living wage announcement, the retreat on tax credits, the extra money for defence… this pre-referendum behaviour is pretty boilerplate pre-election behaviour.*



Complete disruption of the 'normal' electoral cycle; interesting.


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## brogdale (Jan 5, 2016)

So Cam caves in...


> *EU referendum: David Cameron branded 'crazy' after allowing MPs to campaign to leave EU amid resignations threat - live*
> *Prime Minister will lift collective responsibility once negotiations with European leaders are complete and allow ministers to decide their own positions on EU*


Now 'offically' a "global laughing stock" according to Hesletine.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2016)

From Cameron's Commons statement...


> ...there will be *a clear government position*, but it will be open to individual ministers to take a different personal position while remaining part of the government.


Could be a govt. position that commands support of minority of ministers?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2016)

On C4 News Gary Gibbon confirmed that today's ministerial 'free-vote' announcement was precipitated by pressure from a number of threatened cabinet resignations, and specifically a meeting, yesterday, between Cameron and Chris Grayling.

Real strength, eh? Being bossed by a lightweight like Grayling!


----------



## Cid (Jan 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> From Cameron's Commons statement...
> ​Could be a govt. position that commands support of minority of ministers?



Unlikely... The Tory elite is a business elite. A handful of eurosceptics, but a bit of careful pressure might bring them in line. Play it well and the cabinet 'chooses' to be pro-eu. And a no campaign lead by IDS and Grayling?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2016)

Cid said:


> Unlikely... The Tory elite is a business elite. A handful of eurosceptics, but a bit of careful pressure might bring them in line. Play it well and the cabinet 'chooses' to be pro-eu. And a no campaign lead by IDS and Grayling?


tbh I think this tells us more about Cameron's concern for his potential successor than anything else.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 5, 2016)

he was saying today that the time for AV reff was too short, from announcement that its on the table to vote. And another he said was too short a time. Recon it'll get longed out till 2017 now?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> he was saying today that the time for AV reff was too short, from announcement that its on the table to vote. And another he said was too short a time. Recon it'll get longed out till 2017 now?


I'd say that by abandoning collective responsibility he's given himself an incentive to keep the gap between end of negotiation and referendum as short as possible.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 12, 2016)

Was talking to some not-too-political but vaguely lefty types yesterday and they looked puzzled when I said I didn't think the UK leaving the EU would make much difference to trade agreements with the EU. Was talking to some more centre-right types at work today, and they looked puzzled when I pointed out that it won't mean we send millions of EU citizens home (partly cos the million plus Brits in Europe being sent home would be awkward). Do lots of people have such unrealistic expectations of what Brexit will mean? If so, I suspect they'll go off the idea when they realise it won't change the main things they've been complaining about.

NB I suppose it could mean greater control of future migration from the EU, but it sure as hell won't mean sending those already here back. Apart from anything else, the agriculture and construction industries would be on their knees.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2016)

What does the opening suggestion mean? That your vaguely lefty mates are pro-eu?


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What does the opening suggestion mean? That your vaguely lefty mates are pro-eu?


 Not mates. And no, they were more thinking that having more trade barriers might be a good thing for the UK. But if there are differencees between trade agreements in and out, I suspect they'll be minor.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 12, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> Not mates. And no, they were more thinking that having more trade barriers might be a good thing for the UK. But if there are differencees between trade agreements in and out, I suspect they'll be minor.


Ok, does that mean pro-eu or anti-eu? Them, not you.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2016)

i hope they don't long it out.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2016)

i want to vote  it probably won't change a great deal but i've never been asked to vote on anything as important as this.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 12, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> i want to vote  it probably won't change a great deal but i've never been asked to vote on anything as important as this.


Yes, I want to vote also but I have just moved house and not sure I am registered at the moment. Where / what do you think we need to be registered with on order to have a vote?


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Yes, I want to vote also but I have just moved house and not sure I am registered at the moment. Where / what do you think we need to be registered with on order to have a vote?



Just go onto your council's website and register, its takes a few seconds and really is that easy.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 12, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> i hope they don't long it out.


they'll want at least 2-3 months space to convince everyone or not convince them. How long was it before the announcement of an AV vote and then the vote itself, cos I remember it seemed looooong. And the campaigning was relentless


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2016)

I can't believe they've not announced a date.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 12, 2016)

Daves yet to win his concessions at the EU I believe and won't announce a date till then.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 12, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Just go onto your council's website and register, its takes a few seconds and really is that easy.


On first examination my local council website is a shambles


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> On first examination my local council website is a shambles



Really, that's a bit rubbish.  It only took a couple of clicks to find it on my council's one

(Register to vote - London Borough of Richmond upon Thames)

I guess the principles are the same, you just need to find the right page.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 12, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> NB I suppose it could mean greater control of future migration from the EU, but it sure as hell won't mean sending those already here back. Apart from anything else, the agriculture and construction industries would be on their knees.



It could give greater control over EU migration, but would imagine that in reality things will stay pretty much as they are in respects to that as British people would still like to travel around Europe freely. What it would mean is that the borders retreat to UK shores; so the UK border in Calais for example would be brought back to Dover, meaning that any refugees that get to the UK border will be in the UK, rather than just thrown back in to the jungle. Which will piss off Farage and my local crime commissioner who said yesterday that returning jihadis _could_ be hiding in the jungle trying to get back to blighty as refugees, which is about as stupid a thing as it is possible to imagine.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 12, 2016)

every single PCC elected seems to be a massive bellend. Mine wanted to bring back police boxes. Fucking tardis's on the streets of northampton


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> every single PCC elected seems to be a massive bellend. Mine wanted to bring back police boxes. Fucking tardis's on the streets of northampton


----------



## gosub (Jan 12, 2016)

if only there was a way of harnessing the electromagnetic spectrum so the dibble could communicate with base when out and about.


Most the Edinburgh ones are coffee shops.


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> I can't believe they've not announced a date.



As dotty said, they won't be announcing anything until they've done a deal which they think they can sell to enough people to win a vote.


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> every single PCC elected seems to be a massive bellend. Mine wanted to bring back police boxes. *Fucking tardis's on the streets of northampton*



Would have thought that's a guaranteed way of securing the DotCommunist vote


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2016)

I see graylings jockeying for early position as brexit cheerleader.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I see graylings jockeying for early position as brexit cheerleader.



Chris Grayling was a non-entity within the tory party even before he managed to create a reputation as being the most inept minister ever to hold office - any attempt he's making at turning into a big beast will be met with horror and not a little amusement by his fellow euro-phobes.

this will only really start when one or more of the big beasts - May, Osbourne, Hammond, Johnson, Fallon(?) - comes out agin the PM on EU membership, at which point Grayling will be relegated to setting out the chairs at a public meeting in Dunny-on-the-Wold...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2016)

kebabking said:


> Chris Grayling was a non-entity within the tory party even before he managed to create a reputation as being the most inept minister ever to hold office - any attempt he's making at turning into a big beast will be met with horror and not a little amusement by his fellow euro-phobes.
> 
> this will only really start when one or more of the big beasts - May, Osbourne, Hammond, Johnson, Fallon(?) - comes out agin the PM on EU membership, at which point Grayling will be relegated to setting out the chairs at a public meeting in Dunny-on-the-Wold...


hague appears to be undecided or saying stuff that sounds undecided anyway


----------



## kebabking (Jan 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> hague appears to be undecided or saying stuff that sounds undecided anyway



dunno, he sounded pretty solid on staying in to me - kind of 'EU membership is a floatation device that smells of shit, while leaving it is a millstone that smells of pretty flowers' whatever they smell like, and however they make you feel, one is a floatation device and one is a millstone.

the long article he wrote a couple of weeks ago could certainly be read as saying 'on one hand there's this, and on another there's that', but if you look at the _weight_ he gives to the benefits/cost of this or that, it looked - to me - like he'd decided that however uncomfortable he was with staying and _not_ riding off into the sunset with two fingers joyfully uplifted, he thought that the costs and risks of that, big strategic, geo-political costs and risks, were just too high.

i could, of course, be wrong...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I see graylings jockeying for early position as brexit cheerleader.



Chris Grayling, a politician and minister so inept he made Geoff "Buff" Hoon look talented in comparison.


----------



## gosub (Jan 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> hague appears to be undecided or saying stuff that sounds undecided anyway


apart from the article he wrote in the Telegraph saying vote IN(or Scotland will leave)


----------



## sihhi (Feb 2, 2016)

Pro-EU leftist Chuka Umuna celebrating a split social system in Britain:- one rule for migrants, one rule for citizens.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 2, 2016)

sihhi said:


> Pro-EU leftist Chuka Umuna celebrating a split social system in Britain:- one rule for migrants, one rule for citizens.



He was also cheering on Cruz's victory earlier


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2016)

sihhi said:


> Pro-EU leftist Chuka Umuna celebrating a split social system in Britain:- one rule for migrants, one rule for citizens.


Very nu-lab; further impoverished workers.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2016)

sihhi said:


> Pro-EU leftist Chuka Umuna celebrating a split social system in Britain:- one rule for migrants, one rule for citizens.



What do any of those things even mean. They're just generic bullet point headers.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 2, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> What do any of those things even mean. They're just generic bullet point headers.



Stuff you can fit into a soundbite


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 2, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Stuff you can fit into a soundbite



What irritates me is it's in football speak too. A "'Red card' over EU laws". ffs.

It's like American laws drafted around a 'three strikes and your out' mentality.


----------



## agricola (Feb 2, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> What irritates me is it's in football speak too. A "'Red card' over EU laws". ffs.
> 
> It's like American laws drafted around a 'three strikes and your out' mentality.



TBF the red card analogy is apt; after all despite what Cameron and his ilk are saying its not us that have been given the red card to wave around, its the EU council who get to play referee.

Reading the reports on the deal makes one think that there is no way that the referendum will take place; Brexit would win by an absolute landslide.


----------



## gosub (Feb 2, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> What irritates me is it's in football speak too. A "'Red card' over EU laws". ffs.
> 
> It's like American laws drafted around a 'three strikes and your out' mentality.



where to begin on the red card?....
So til now the EUropean Commission could ram ideas through the majority of EUrope didn't want?  (no, but some fun in getting previously declared EU enthusiasts to admit that).  Then he comes up with his 4 problems with the EU in Chippenham (don't know why that factory in Chippenham needed telling instead of Parliament but still) one of them is EUrope being run for EUrozone....the Eurozone is 2/3 of members, higher than his 55% - so he's formalising how the EUrozone can gang up on us


----------



## kabbes (Feb 2, 2016)

One thing the EU has brought (in the absence of fiscal integration) is the ability of countries to set themselves up as cheap and easy tax havens with companies domiciled there having immediate and automatic access to the entire free market.  So we get Ireland with 12.5% corporation tax and Luxembourg with 5.7% on IP revenues.  This has really facilitated the development of the Amazon model of making revenues in the rest of Europe and washing it through low tax economies. 

Britain, of course, is somewhere towards the bottom end of corporation tax itself, but it's not in the same league as some.  And it could potentially be argued that having to compete with the above makes it unviable for us to have high corporation tax rates; it's just too easy to redomicile to a cheap regime and pay next to nothing.

I would be considerably more in favour of the UK exiting the EU if I also saw it introducing a withholding tax for revenues repatriated to tax havens.  But I don't have much faith in this happening.  It's not like they do it already for funds washed through Bermuda or the Cayman Islands.


----------



## Santino (Feb 2, 2016)

sihhi said:


> Pro-EU leftist Chuka Umuna celebrating a split social system in Britain:- one rule for migrants, one rule for citizens.


 I am in favour of a stronger Brita, I just don't know if this is going to help.


----------



## coley (Feb 2, 2016)

Santino said:


> I am in favour of a stronger Brita, I just don't know if this is going to help.


Cant beat a nice strong glass of filtered water


----------



## laptop (Feb 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> where to begin on the red card?....
> So til now the EUropean Commission could ram ideas through the majority of EUrope didn't want?:



So he was asleep through all those negotiations in the Council of Europe?


----------



## gosub (Feb 2, 2016)

laptop said:


> So he was asleep through all those negotiations in the Council of Europe?



well he certainly wasn't at them, these QMV rules were decided over ten years ago.

eta my mistake :brings changing things from what Commission wants, down(from 72% ) to same level as accepting what the Commission wants.  

 But still don't help against 2/3 EUrozone members,  they now don't even have to convince a non EUrozone member to go along with overruling the commission


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2016)

sihhi said:


> Pro-EU leftist Chuka Umuna celebrating a split social system in Britain:- one rule for migrants, one rule for citizens.



Chuckles may call himself "leftist" (in a whisper), but he's about as left-wing as Boris Johnson - he adopts labels and causes as and when it suits his ambitions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2016)

J Ed said:


> He was also cheering on Cruz's victory earlier



Chuka cheering on a religious nutjob? Not a surprise when you consider that about half his majority comes from the local Pentecostal and Evangelical churches pushing the vote out for him.


----------



## laptop (Feb 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> well he certainly wasn't at them, these QMV rules were decided over ten years ago.
> 
> eta my mistake :brings changing things from what Commission wants, down(from 72% ) to same level as accepting what the Commission wants.
> 
> But still don't help against 2/3 EUrozone members,  they now don't even have to convince a non EUrozone member to go along with overruling the commission


Not QUITE the same as the Commission being able to impose, is it?


----------



## gosub (Feb 2, 2016)

laptop said:


> Not QUITE the same as the Commission being able to impose, is it?



ITS NOT ABOUT THE COMMISSION, IT CHANGES FUCK ALL ABOUT THE COMMISSION,* the Commision is already at the 55%*,  IT* LOWERS* THE THRESHOLD FOR THE *EUROPEAN COUNCIL* FROM* 72%* TO* 55%*.


* Eurozone make up 67% of European Council.*

*SCADPlus: The Union's decision-making procedures*


----------



## laptop (Feb 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> ITS NOT ABOUT THE COMMISSION, IT CHANGES FUCK ALL ABOUT THE COMMISSION,* the Commision is already at the 55%*,  IT* LOWERS* THE THRESHOLD FOR THE *EUROPEAN COUNCIL* FROM* 72%* TO* 55%*.
> 
> 
> * Eurozone make up 67% of European Council.*
> ...


Er, look up there for what I quoted!


----------



## gosub (Feb 2, 2016)

laptop said:


> Er, look up there for what I quoted!



see you and double it: (*no*, but some fun in getting previously declared EU enthusiasts to admit that)

EU enthusiasts,  have got to go round explaining this red card is at best vacuous.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 2, 2016)

May will be campaigning for and IN vote, emphasises for all it's bluster and whatever it's members views the Conservative Party is committed to the EU.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 5, 2016)

Leave ahead in the latest poll for what it's worth.


> Topline referendum voting intentions are REMAIN 36%(-2), LEAVE 45%(+3), DK/WNV 19%. While the changes since YouGov’s last poll a week ago aren’t huge, since summer YouGov’s referendum polls have tended to show the race neck-and-neck, so today’s nine point lead for leave is a significant departure, and the largest YouGov have shown since 2014.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 5, 2016)

That's actually a pretty huge lead.

We still haven't really got going yet, though, with the assault that the establishment will make against the No vote.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 5, 2016)

kabbes said:


> That's actually a pretty huge lead.
> 
> We still haven't really got going yet, though, with the assault that the establishment will make against the No vote.



Hopefully the onslaught of pro-EU propaganda we are about to witness will work against the in-campaign.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

It's going to be interesting, the divisions on Europe are rather different to the usual ones: The Graun is already bigging up Cameron in the recent coverage. 

(I'm finishing off reading this book, which should be an essential for anyone on the left considering their vote in July - I think butchersapron has an ebook of it if need be VersoBooks.com)


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> It's going to be interesting, the divisions on Europe are rather different to the usual ones: The Graun is already bigging up Cameron in the recent coverage.
> 
> (I'm finishing off reading this book, which should be an essential for anyone on the left considering their vote in July - I think butchersapron has an ebook of it if need be VersoBooks.com)


I can't recommend Streeck's book highly enough. IMO it's essential for anyone interested in framing a macro/structural understanding of neo-liberalism in general, and the role of EU institutions in effecting the decoupling of capital from democratic will.
Having read this book, (and heard Streeck lecture) I'm honestly left thinking that it matters little which way the electorate vote in the referendum. Either way, financialised capital will be calling the shots.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

Yeah, while it's particularly damning of the EU, it doesn't leave you with any great hope that things would be much different out of it. But it does put paid to the idea of the EU as a force for good.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Yeah, while it's particularly damning of the EU, it doesn't leave you with any great hope that things would be much different out of it. But it does put paid to the idea of the EU as a force for good.


Quite.
Ideologically the 'remain'/'leave' contest is really between those that believe the interests/liberalisation of financialised capital are best served within the technocratic, de-politicised super-state and other 'Atlanticists' that favour the 'purity' of 'free' global markets.
It's fuck all to do with anything that the ordinary punter thinks it is.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

What a jolly time we live in.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

Going back to "Buying Time" though, it's been the sort of book where I've found myself regularly reading chunks out loud to Mrs B. Seems to me that there's the most quotable, eloquent summation of neo-liberalism on every other page. Thought I knew something about economics...took a sociologist to correct that view.
A must read.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

It's a fantastic book, and very readable. I've been enthusiastically endorsing it all over, but have thus far had few bites.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Going back to "Buying Time" though, it's been the sort of book where I've found myself regularly reading chunks out loud to Mrs B. Seems to me that there's the most quotable, eloquent summation of neo-liberalism on every other page. Thought I knew something about economics...took a sociologist to correct that view.
> A must read.


There is a gap though - the other part of eu capital, classically productive capital that's competing with US and Asia etc that's pushing through massive productivity increases without wage raises whilst laying off ever more workers and  fragmenting the remaining labour force through their management of immigration and pushing the more costly parts of the cycle onto others. That's best covered for me in Carchedi's For Another Europe: A Class Analysis of European Economic Integration - no ebook of it i'm afraid. There's loads of his papers outlining the argument around though, will find one and edit in when i get chance later. Buying time is here.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> It's a fantastic book, and very readable. I've been enthusiastically endorsing it all over, but have thus far had few bites.


It is, but it's also worth bearing in mind just how challenging it is both in terms of basic macro-economic concepts and the demands it places on the reader to (quite possibly) ditch some previously firmly held beliefs. If I'm honest, I'm not sure I'd have found the book as accessible had I not heard the author lecture at the LSE. 
That said, I agree it's worth proselytising. Personally, the challenge I'm finding is using the 'Buying Time' concepts in political debate/discussions. It's one of those 'why can't you see this' things, for me.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

It's easy for the arguments to look like conspiracy theory if you aren't careful, I think.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> It's easy for the arguments to look like conspiracy theory if you aren't careful, I think.


To those exposed to nothing other than the hegemonic message, yes, quite possibly.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> To those exposed to nothing other than the hegemonic message, yes, quite possibly.


this is just posh for 'wake up, sheeple' isn't it?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> this is just posh for 'wake up, sheeple' isn't it?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 5, 2016)

Cheers for that book link.  I shall look forward to reading that.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

see also Ruling the Void (I've got a load of cheery books on the go atm...)


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

So, at this early stage, how is public "debate" over the referendum choice being framed? Thus far it appears to me focussed tightly on just 3 areas of acceptable discussion:-
1. "Sovereignty"..."who has the right to make 'our' laws"
2. "trade"...whether or not access to the 'common market' is important to "British business"
3. "borders"..."we'll be able to stop the Rumanians coming over here...and have nice Australians instead"

Have I missed anything?


----------



## gosub (Feb 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So, at this early stage, how is public "debate" over the referendum choice being framed? Thus far it appears to me focussed tightly on just 3 areas of acceptable discussion:-
> 1. "Sovereignty"..."who has the right to make 'our' laws"
> 2. "trade"...whether or not access to the 'common market' is important to "British business"
> 3. "borders"..."we'll be able to stop the Rumanians coming over here...and have nice Australians instead"
> ...



2."trade" You don't have to be a member of the EU to be a member of the Single Market.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

gosub said:


> 2."trade" You don't have to be a member of the EU to be a member of the Single Market.


Yeah, but I'm really offering these up as 'non' arguments. As I said above, these topics deemed acceptable for wider debate do not really reflect the varying neo-liberal strategies that actually drive the contesting groups. The only real issue in play for financialised capital (and their political wings) is which option affords the potential for the fastest and deepest liberalisation of capital from any democratic influence.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm surprised we haven't had the Project Fear Redux yet, perhaps the 9 point lead for leaving the EU will kickstart that soon.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

One problem with project fear is that many of the usual allies are on the opposite side...


----------



## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> One problem with project fear is that many of the usual allies are on the opposite side...



Are they? I cannot imagine that there are many Eurosceptics in the upper echelons in the BBC for example. The stay in campaigns have gotten loads in donations from the financial sector, they should be able to run a stronger campaign than they have so far.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

Most of the rightwing press are for out - it's much more mixed.


----------



## mk12 (Feb 5, 2016)

So do I take it that most of us (on here) will vote to leave? The left wing anti-EU perspective doesn't really get much airtime.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

mk12 said:


> So do I take it that most of us (on here) will vote to leave? The left wing anti-EU perspective doesn't really get much airtime.



Before I thought that I would vote to leave but in reality I do not think that I will be able to bring myself to vote either way, both of the options are just so bad.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> Most of the rightwing press are for out - it's much more mixed.


Only the Mail and Express isn't it?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Only the Mail and Express isn't it?



IIRC the Murdoch papers are pro-staying in


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

ah! in that case, game on. Ashamed to say I haven't read much beyond the headlines the other day, which seemed to suggest they were all for out.


----------



## mk12 (Feb 5, 2016)

I'm undecided. My democratic instinct makes me want to vote to leave. My support for the principle of European unity makes me want to vote to remain. My ignorance about the potential economic repercussions that leaving would have makes me want to abstain. 

Something that won't shape my decision is the fact that anti-EU sentiment in Britain is chiefly associated with UKIP and Farage.


----------



## gosub (Feb 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> IIRC the Murdoch papers are pro-staying in


not if the polls stay the way they are,


----------



## mk12 (Feb 5, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Only the Mail and Express isn't it?



The Express front page headline says that 92% of people want to leave. The small print? That's from an online poll of Express readers.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2016)

gosub said:


> not if the polls stay the way they are,


What do you mean?


----------



## gosub (Feb 5, 2016)

Proper poll yougov in the Times in the Times today : Leave 45%   Remain 36%

YouGov |  Draft EU deal gives boost to Leave campaign


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 5, 2016)

gosub said:


> Proper poll yougov in the Times in the Times today : Leave 45%   Remain 36%
> 
> YouGov |  Draft EU deal gives boost to Leave campaign


Was that a reply to me? If so, yes, we know, it's what started the discussion today - and what are you saying by posting it as a response? I don't follow what you're suggesting.


----------



## gosub (Feb 5, 2016)

No, was a reply to mk12.  I don't see your posts unless i click on them shortly after they are posted.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

mk12 said:


> I'm undecided. My democratic instinct makes me want to vote to leave. My support for the principle of European unity makes me want to vote to remain. My ignorance about the potential economic repercussions that leaving would have makes me want to abstain.
> 
> Something that won't shape my decision is the fact that anti-EU sentiment in Britain is chiefly associated with UKIP and Farage.


Well, if it helps, I don't think the choice being offered the electorate is anything to do with increasing 'democracy' or 'unity'; quite the opposite.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, if it helps, I don't think the choice being offered the electorate is anything to do with increasing 'democracy' or 'unity'; quite the opposite.



I struggle to see any positive outcomes either way.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I struggle to see any positive outcomes either way.


If ever there were a "thickness of bread" on the shit sandwich choice, this surely is it?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

Looks like Gideon's old beau is working for Remain...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2016)

Keep it coming.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

ooh.


----------



## killer b (Feb 5, 2016)

although mind you, her allegations about Osborne haven't made a dent.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

Michael Burke thinks that even if we vote to leave then we won't end up leaving because there will be another vote like with the repeated Irish EU referendum


----------



## coley (Feb 5, 2016)

killer b said:


> this is just posh for 'wake up, sheeple' isn't it?



Aye, but the decision won't come from people reading obscure books( no offence intended) but from those reading the papers of every description, this,and populist media programming, will be where the decision is reached.


----------



## coley (Feb 5, 2016)

gosub said:


> 2."trade" You don't have to be a member of the EU to be a member of the Single Market.


But, as far as I am aware, the EU can impose restrictions on who the member states can trade with?


----------



## coley (Feb 5, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well, if it helps, I don't think the choice being offered the electorate is anything to do with increasing 'democracy' or 'unity'; quite the opposite.


Unity? Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the SNPs policy that a vote to leave would trigger another referendum?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Michael Burke thinks that even if we vote to leave then we won't end up leaving because there will be another vote like with the repeated Irish EU referendum


I can believe it. consider the exit vote, spend a year renegotiating with europe and on propaganda offensive then have another go till they get the answer they want.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I can believe it. consider the exit vote, spend a year renegotiating with europe and on propaganda offensive then have another go till they get the answer they want.



me too, we could have an 'interim period' triggered by the SNP deciding that a vote to leave triggers another referendum. Or some other crisis real or imagined. Honestly I personally don't think it will get that far in the first place since I suspect that we will soon be seeing Scottish referendum style saturation (only more so) propaganda against leaving quite soon.


----------



## coley (Feb 5, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I can believe it. consider the exit vote, spend a year renegotiating with europe and on propaganda offensive then have another go till they get the answer they want.


Doubt it, if it's a no vote, then I think the no vote will demand the democratic acceptance of the vote, rather than be terrorised into changing their minds, as were the Irish.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 6, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, but the decision won't come from people reading obscure books( no offence intended) but from those reading the papers of every description, this,and populist media programming, will be where the decision is reached.


(No offence taken) and you are, of course, quite right.
In the absence of any meaningful attempt by a political party/grouping to articulate the reality of the neo-liberal context for this decision...it comes down to 'bent cucumber" issues. I know they're not scientific samples etc. but the vox pops/QT contributions on the EU referendum almost universally display a profound ignorance beyond "bloody immigrants" & the "sovereignty" point(s). Tbf, there are the usual calls for "we need more information on this", but folk will not get any real information about what's at stake from the MSM.


----------



## killer b (Feb 6, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, but the decision won't come from people reading obscure books( no offence intended) but from those reading the papers of every description, this,and populist media programming, will be where the decision is reached.


I wonder how left wing political ideas take hold then, except through people telling other people 'read this book/article/writer'?

You should read the damn book btw. It's not that long, it's very readable and it's brilliant. You can download the e-pub here


----------



## brogdale (Feb 6, 2016)

killer b said:


> I wonder how left wing political ideas take hold then, except through people telling other people 'read this book/article/writer'?
> 
> You should read the damn book btw. It's not that long, it's very readable and it's brilliant. You can download the e-pub here


Not wishing to be patronising etc...but i wonder if we should start a dedicated 'reading-group'/discussion thread to 'work' chapter by chapter through "Buying Time"?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, but the decision won't come from people reading obscure books( no offence intended) but from those reading the papers of every description, this,and populist media programming, will be where the decision is reached.


I wouldn't underestimate the impact of powerful books.  Whilst their direct readership figures might be low, those readers tend to be passionate about proselytising the message.

Fact is that the only thing that changes society is the spread of ideas.  Ideas start out small -- like a well written book -- but then the core can take hold of popular imagination.  If the narrative speaks to people's experience, they change their approach to life accordingly.  And it tends to work across all facets of society.

We're in the shape we are in because certain ideas took hold in popular consciousness -- to pick a couple of examples, the rise of neoliberalism and individualism in the 1980s and 90s have reshaped the ways entire social structures are formed.  These things start with obscure books written by political outriders but they can enter maintstream consciousness and change the world in a way nothing else can.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 6, 2016)

kabbes said:


> I wouldn't underestimate the impact of powerful books.  Whilst their direct readership figures might be low, those readers tend to be passionate about proselytising the message.
> 
> Fact is that the only thing that changes society is the spread of ideas.  Ideas start out small -- like a well written book -- but then the core can take hold of popular imagination.  If the narrative speaks to people's experience, they change their approach to life accordingly.  And it tends to work across all facets of society.
> 
> We're in the shape we are in because certain ideas took hold in popular consciousness -- to pick a couple of examples, the rise of neoliberalism and individualism in the 1980s and 90s have reshaped the ways entire social structures are formed.  These things start with obscure books written by political outriders but they can enter maintstream consciousness and change the world in a way nothing else can.


Yes.
btw Streeck posits the neo-liberal turn in the late 1960s; specifically he cites global events of 1968 as the shock to capital that accelerated the rejection of the post-war 'contract' that had resulted in the era of "system competition".


----------



## killer b (Feb 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Not wishing to be patronising etc...but i wonder if we should start a dedicated 'reading-group'/discussion thread to 'work' chapter by chapter through "Buying Time"?


sure - I'm not sure how a reading group thread would work, but it definitely deserves a dedicated thread IMO


----------



## brogdale (Feb 6, 2016)

killer b said:


> sure - I'm not sure how a reading group thread would work, but it definitely deserves a dedicated thread IMO


Don't think it would have to 'work' in any particular way, but as i read it I was conscious of how much basic macro-econ literacy was assumed, and the importance of graphs etc. that some folk find challenging.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2016)

michael gove the in secret weapon


----------



## gosub (Feb 6, 2016)

coley said:


> But, as far as I am aware, the EU can impose restrictions on who the member states can trade with?



If we were outside the SIngle market, the EU , as regional body (under international law), could place trade barriers on the UK, the UK couldn't retaliate.	The Single Market (EEA) wouldn't be a single market if they were placing restrictions on it.


----------



## gosub (Feb 6, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I can believe it. consider the exit vote, spend a year renegotiating with europe and on propaganda offensive then have another go till they get the answer they want.



The official exit process is two years anyway, with a take it or leave deal at the end (Article 50)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Not wishing to be patronising etc...but i wonder if we should start a dedicated 'reading-group'/discussion thread to 'work' chapter by chapter through "Buying Time"?



Will it go as well as the Capital Vol.1 reading group that I spent ages arguing in favour of starting, only to not actually bother posting on myself.


----------



## campanula (Feb 6, 2016)

I would be keen - every so often (usually during winter), I despair of my political naivety and embark on a book-buying and mind-expanding spree (I have a couple of Streek books and a load of anarcho stuff)...which then sits unopened on my night-table while I either escape into crap sf or make a run for the greenhouse...

I did a few terms on economics at uni - fell out with everyone (I was the sole female and solitary ancient over 25)...still have horrors over M1...M2...M3 ???...and graphs - opaque useless graphs.....sigh.


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 6, 2016)

I hope europe visas the shit out of our holidays, stay on yer tiny wet island you slackjawed cunts lol cant wait til the mnerrrrr immigrants lot is all about mnerrrrr visa charges 

this will prob go the way of AV - ie|: no one will understand it and will stick with what they know.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 6, 2016)

tribal_princess said:


> I hope europe visas the shit out of our holidays, stay on yer tiny wet island you slackjawed cunts lol



You think the only people that are anti-EU are 'slackjawed cunts'?


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 6, 2016)

oh god here we go, I dont really give a fuck about anything, jesus christ, wtf is it with these new people on here, reactionary or what, yeah am a bigot actually, and? what you gonna do? lol

lol mnerrrrr you think this, yeah jog on warrior, I aint got time for this type of utter shit.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 6, 2016)

tribal_princess said:


> oh god here we go, I dont really give a fuck about anything, jesus christ, wtf is it with these new people on here, reactionary or what, yeah am a bigot actually, and? what you gonna do? lol
> 
> lol mnerrrrr you think this, yeah jog on warrior, I aint got time for this type of utter shit.


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 6, 2016)

you said it, I don't have to justify myself to you, think what you want


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 6, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> You think the only people that are anti-EU are 'slackjawed cunts'?



you said this picking on my words, dont act all  about it now lol


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 6, 2016)

Um... ok.


----------



## campanula (Feb 6, 2016)

tribal_princess said:


> you said it, I don't have to justify myself to you, think what you want



nitwit


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 6, 2016)

campanula said:


> nitwit



lol if you like joker


----------



## NoXion (Feb 6, 2016)

tribal_princess said:


> I hope europe visas the shit out of our holidays, stay on yer tiny wet island you slackjawed cunts lol cant wait til the mnerrrrr immigrants lot is all about mnerrrrr visa charges
> 
> this will prob go the way of AV - ie|: no one will understand it and will stick with what they know.



I thought AV failed because it as a Lib Dem idea and a lot of the electorate were pissed off with them, so used their AV vote to punish them?

Or at least I'd prefer the possibility that voters are vengeful, rather than being so fucking timid they won't even let the most minor of adjustments (let alone reforms) to come to pass.


----------



## planetgeli (Feb 6, 2016)

I thought av failed because tuppence was spent on the campaign and Clegg wasn't interested once his deputy pm post was assured.


----------



## youngian (Feb 6, 2016)

kabbes said:


> One thing the EU has brought (in the absence of fiscal integration) is the ability of countries to set themselves up as cheap and easy tax havens with companies domiciled there having immediate and automatic access to the entire free market.  So we get Ireland with 12.5% corporation tax and Luxembourg with 5.7% on IP revenues.  This has really facilitated the development of the Amazon model of making revenues in the rest of Europe and washing it through low tax economies.



One man's sovereignty is another man's Dutch auction for international capital. I thnk this federal Europe the Tory swivel eyed loons go on about means Johnny Foreigner is Brussels can't tell us to clean up our British beaches.


----------



## gosub (Feb 8, 2016)

J Ed said:


> me too, we could have an 'interim period' triggered by the SNP deciding that a vote to leave triggers another referendum. Or some other crisis real or imagined. Honestly I personally don't think it will get that far in the first place since I suspect that we will soon be seeing Scottish referendum style saturation (*only more so*) propaganda against leaving quite soon.


David Cameron warns of migrant camps in southern England if Brexit vote 



concentration camps and jihadi machine gun attacks definitely  ramping things up


----------



## NoXion (Feb 8, 2016)

Yeah, I'm not buying it.


----------



## gosub (Feb 8, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Yeah, I'm not buying it.


I think the treaty with the French would collapse, but I'd happily vote against French tent getttos.  Machine gun jihadis ,well that was a failure of EU Intel sharing anyway, our lack of gun culture largely seems to have worked in our favour (sofar touch wood) and sadly we seem to have fermented enough homegrown extremists the rest of Europe would be nuts if it didn't want to know what GCHQ reckons they are up to


----------



## youngian (Feb 8, 2016)

gosub said:


> David Cameron warns of migrant camps in southern England if Brexit vote
> 
> concentration camps and jihadi machine gun attacks definitely  ramping things up


Brexit campaigners complaining about Cameron using hysterical rhetoric over immigration is to be savoured.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 8, 2016)

Isn't there an agreement between the UK and France that the UK will not send back immigrants or asylum seekers to France once they arrive in the UK, if they enter the UK through France?  (I'm not sure if it is the same agreement that allows UK BA to operate on the French side of the Chanel).


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 10, 2016)

> Our latest poll confirms a shift toward Leave, with 42% opting for it, and 41% for Remaining In. Excluding Don’t Knows, the narrowness of the Leave lead on this poll is insufficient to translate into a ‘real’ lead, with the two sides neck and neck (50% vs 50%). Last week we had 52% for Remain In, and 48% for Leave.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 10, 2016)

Be interesting to see what effect if any the Tories' fear campaign will have.


----------



## gosub (Feb 10, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Be interesting to see what effect if any the Tories' fear campaign will have.


starting to get mumblings of grassroots out turning into a political party after referendum, mainly stemming from it and the gag while Cameron spouts shite


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 11, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Be interesting to see what effect if any the Tories' fear campaign will have.


What Tory fear campaign?


----------



## NoXion (Feb 11, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What Tory fear campaign?



This one:




gosub said:


> David Cameron warns of migrant camps in southern England if Brexit vote
> 
> 
> 
> concentration camps and jihadi machine gun attacks definitely  ramping things up



If going on about terrorists and immigrants isn't an attempt to appeal to fear, I wonder what is?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 11, 2016)

NoXion said:


> This one:
> If going on about terrorists and immigrants isn't an appeal to fear, I wonder what is?


OK got you, I wasn't sure about whether you were talking about the party or backbenchers. 

No disagreement that it's a fear campaign, but it's more than just the Tories - liberals, capital and the state are all in there too.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 11, 2016)

Hillary Benn now telling us that Putin would benefit from Brexit, he is such a fucking snake


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Hillary Benn now telling us that Putin would benefit from Brexit, he is such a fucking snake


The 'deal' he struck with Corbyn becomes clearer.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 11, 2016)

ah that'll be another string to the bow for the innies. Terrorism, immigration, uncle vlad and the great bear will eat us. Wonder what else they've got. Peeds will be able to flee to europe and go unpunished?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> ah that'll be another string to the bow for the innies. Terrorism, immigration, uncle vlad and the great bear will eat us. Wonder what else they've got. Peeds will be able to flee to europe and go unpunished?



Hillary Benn has been called in to redwash the in campaign so he'll lecture us that leaving is against 'internationalism' again, a term which now apparently encompasses NATO bombing campaigns but no longer means the international solidarity of ordinary people.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> ah that'll be another string to the bow for the innies. Terrorism, immigration, uncle vlad and the great bear will eat us. Wonder what else they've got. Peeds will be able to flee to europe and go unpunished?


Wonderful Barak is going to "reach out to us", the cunt.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 12, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Wonderful Barak is going to "reach out to us", the cunt.


because he heads a collection of states that is in no way sliding towards the sort of polarisation and line drawing that signals civil war amirite?
I still had a shred of time for the 'europe protects a social charter' type argument till greece. It shouldn't have shocked me but it did. If this union of countries is just for the select few nations playing beggar-thy-nieghbour then whats the point eh? Its just of no value. Its streamlined and intergrated labour managment. Shift x worker to y state ??? profit


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> because he heads a collection of states that is in no way sliding towards the sort of polarisation and line drawing that signals civil war amirite?
> I still had a shred of time for the 'europe protects a social charter' type argument till greece. It shouldn't have shocked me but it did. If this union of countries is just for the select few nations playing beggar-thy-nieghbour then whats the point eh? Its just of no value. Its streamlined and intergrated labour managment. Shift x worker to y state ??? profit


It's not really even about nations dominating others, just establishing machinery that is most conducive to corporate capital accumulation & extraction/removal to tax havens...without the difficulties thrown up by democratic interference or accountability. 

That's why Syriza had to be crushed and most tories are 'remain'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It's not really even about nations dominating others, just establishing machinery that is most conducive to corporate capital accumulation & extraction/removal to tax havens...without the difficulties thrown up by democratic interference or accountability.
> 
> That's why Syriza had to be crushed and most tories are 'remain'.


this will be part of what you talk about with nation states becoming debt farms I suppose? We'll keep the novelty teatowels and doctor who but expect a life of 'fuck you, pay me'. I just don't see how that can ever continue though. There's always *this* far and no further. You can't get blood from stones. We burn the debt records, kill the landlords and hold land in common etc

Is it really because they've never seen a revolt in living memory? A proper one. eh fuck knows. Perhaps their complacency and arrogance may well be an undoing.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Wonderful Barak is going to "reach out to us", the cunt.



The Trojans rush in to prevent the retreat of their horse


----------



## J Ed (Feb 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> this will be part of what you talk about with nation states becoming debt farms I suppose? We'll keep the novelty teatowels and doctor who but expect a life of 'fuck you, pay me'. I just don't see how that can ever continue though. There's always *this* far and no further. You can't get blood from stones. We burn the debt records, kill the landlords and hold land in common etc
> 
> Is it really because they've never seen a revolt in living memory? A proper one. eh fuck knows. Perhaps their complacency and arrogance may well be an undoing.



I think that the mass surveillance, the ever increasing attacks on civil liberties etc point to the fact that the ruling class know that in the near future that there will be at least an attempt at a reckoning. They are so scared of us people are advertising to them on that basis.


----------



## gosub (Feb 13, 2016)

Back in the days my brother did handling, he had two Russian pilots on their first  trip to UK who were so dismayed with UK cctv culture they took off from Dunsfold with out clearance, while Clarkson was filming. 


Potentially, cctv isn't all bad


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2016)

Germans make crass intervention.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2016)

Thick twat can't even read out what's written for him.


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 16, 2016)

...I want to know what Prince George thinks about it before I make a final decision...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...I want to know what Prince George thinks about it before I make a final decision...


----------



## Ranbay (Feb 17, 2016)

Glastonbury 2016 is going to clash with another very important date

+ the workers, that's about 180,000 lefites including me who need get our arses in gear for a postal vote!


----------



## J Ed (Feb 18, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Glastonbury 2016 is going to clash with another very important date
> 
> + the workers, that's about 180,000 lefites including me who need get our arses in gear for a postal vote!



Get out there and vote for neoliberalism with a European face


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Get out there and vote for neoliberalism with a European face



Get out there and side with the most reactionary elements in British politics, for a result that will only result in their invigoration.


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 18, 2016)

*Michael Gove and Boris Johnson ‘leaning towards Leave' on EU*

Tory heavyweights Michael Gove and Boris Johnson are “leaning towards" supporting Britain leaving the EU, sources close to the senior Conservatives have said.

ITV political editor Robert Peston reports that the Justice Secretary and London Mayor are both on the verge of coming out for Brexit.

https://www.politicshome.com/home-affairs/articles/story/michael-gove-and-boris-johnson-‘leaning-towards-leave-eu


.....If Johnson wants a realistic chance of nuking Osborne then backing Brexit makes alot of sense in terms of destabilising Cameron & winning over rank & file tories...wonder what position he's promising Gove in his fantasy-government....


----------



## J Ed (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> Get out there and side with the most reactionary elements in British politics, for a result that will only result in their invigoration.



What the fuck are you talking about? The entire financial services sector is supporting remain and is even threatening to move jobs to EU countries in the event of leave winning, they have donated millions to the campaign and that's before we get to the British Chamber of Commerce and the Conservative Party itself.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 18, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> *Michael Gove and Boris Johnson ‘leaning towards Leave' on EU*
> 
> Tory heavyweights Michael Gove and Boris Johnson are “leaning towards" supporting Britain leaving the EU, sources close to the senior Conservatives have said.
> 
> ...



Cunt Wars, yesss this is what I have been waiting for

No matter who loses we win


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2016)

I thought Gove had said he'll back cameron here, reluctantly. Like hague. There'll be a lot of 'reluctant innies' on the tory benches I recon.


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? The entire financial services sector is supporting remain and is even threatening to move jobs to EU countries in the event of leave winning, they have donated millions to the campaign and that's before we get to the British Chamber of Commerce and the Conservative Party itself.



It's really not fucking rocket science. The EU is shit, but there's no 'progressive' campaign against it. Voting either way is a vote against working class interests, especially since a vote in favour of staying is a vote for Cameron's negotiations writing off whatever positive functions of the EU currently exist. But, a leave vote will only ever be a victory for the most reactionary elements of the right. What do you actually think is going to be the positive outcome of leaving the EU? Tory government gonna nationalise everything again? Get off it you fucking fantasist.


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 18, 2016)

...Peston on the ITN news last night seemed to be implying some shifting of the tectonic-plates....


----------



## J Ed (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> It's really not fucking rocket science. The EU is shit, but there's no 'progressive' campaign against it. Voting either way is a vote against working class interests, especially since a vote in favour of staying is a vote for Cameron's negotiations writing off whatever positive functions of the EU currently exist. But, a leave vote will only ever be a victory for the most reactionary elements of the right. What do you actually think is going to be the positive outcome of leaving the EU? Tory government gonna nationalise everything again? Get off it you fucking fantasist.



I won't be voting at all or marshalling anyone else into doing so as I'm not going to be a mug who favours brutal neoliberalism from Frankfurt or London.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...Peston on the ITN news last night seemed to be implying some shifting of the tectonic-plates....


quite a few of the local mps in this region are prominent in the outtie campaign 'grassroots out'. None of them are 'big beasts' in the tory party though. Backbenchers.


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I won't be voting at all or marshalling anyone else into doing so as I'm not going to be a mug who favours brutal neoliberalism from Frankfurt or London.



Neither am I.

Seems a number of people believe there's a "left-wing" case for favouring brutal neoliberalism from London over Frankfurt, though. And that seemed to be your general tone.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 18, 2016)

Tim Montgomerie, founder of ConservativeHome  left over the party over the EU yesterday, might be a sign of things to come or a lack of things to come.


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

At any rate, wherever you stand, can we at least agree that Boris Johnson is coming out as the most objectionable politician in recent history over this? The way he so transparently sees his opportunity for power just in sight, and is weighing up where to stand simply on what most benefits him - the way it's so brazen, and yet he remains the most popular politician in the cournty?


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 18, 2016)

...well the slimy b'stard can no longer keep delaying a decision because of supposedley needing to see the final sign-off of Cameron's pathetic "deal"  - either its the swan dive off the top board or the climb of shame all the way back down the steps...


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2016)

he's something of a maverick in his own party image to buff as well, don't know how much that will affect his decision.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> It's really not fucking rocket science. The EU is shit, but there's no 'progressive' campaign against it. Voting either way is a vote against working class interests, especially since a vote in favour of staying is a vote for Cameron's negotiations writing off whatever positive functions of the EU currently exist. But, a leave vote will only ever be a victory for the most reactionary elements of the right. What do you actually think is going to be the positive outcome of leaving the EU? Tory government gonna nationalise everything again? Get off it you fucking fantasist.



The point is that staying in the EU will mean no one _ever_ nationalising* anything - ever! A vote to leave the EU is a vote to begin a battle on the home front. That battle will begin with big losses no doubt, but fighting on a national level is far more likely to bring about eventual victories because the EU is just too big to even contemplate fighting against. It's scale and disconnection from local communities and people is just to great.


*Not that nationalisation is a panacea. It just highlights one example of the limits imposed on us from Brussels.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> quite a few of the local mps in this region are prominent in the outtie campaign 'grassroots out'. None of them are 'big beasts' in the tory party though. Backbenchers.



Although your MP is the spitting image of notorious "big beast" Fred West.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> It's really not fucking rocket science. The EU is shit, *but there's no 'progressive' campaign against it. *Voting either way is a vote against working class interests, especially since a vote in favour of staying is a vote for Cameron's negotiations writing off whatever positive functions of the EU currently exist. But, a leave vote will only ever be a victory for the most reactionary elements of the right. What do you actually think is going to be the positive outcome of leaving the EU? Tory government gonna nationalise everything again? Get off it you fucking fantasist.



Odd that, other than the referendum,when are progressives expecting to stop TTIP?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? The entire financial services sector is supporting remain and is even threatening to move jobs to EU countries in the event of leave winning, they have donated millions to the campaign and that's before we get to the British Chamber of Commerce and the Conservative Party itself.


And I suspect that this is why Johnson is eventually going to have to back 'in'. However much he may want to back Brexit, doing so as London mayor is tricky. From his current position, he would need to make a right-wing economic case for why London would be better off outside the EU.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And I suspect that this is why Johnson is eventually going to have to back 'in'. However much he may want to back Brexit, doing so as London mayor is tricky. From his current position, he would need to make a right-wing economic case for why London would be better off outside the EU.



If everything thing Cameron said in parliament a few weeks back were true, thats easy.  But as it wasn't, and in some respects he'shaving to fight France over a row back, is wait and see at the mo.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> If everything thing Cameron said in parliament a few weeks back were true, thats easy.  But as it wasn't, and in some respects he'shaving to fight France over a row back, is wait and see at the mo.


Kind of smart not to commit just yet as it means he basically doesn't have to do anything, while appearing to be holding out for a better deal. 

But I also don't see the political calculation for Johnson to back 'out'. If 'in' wins, even narrowly, he loses politically. At some point, he will say 'right, I held out for a better deal, and here it is, well done me', without ever actually having done anything.


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> Odd that, other than the referendum,when are progressives expecting to stop TTIP?



... Tories are committed to TTIP anyway?

And you know what's extra odd? There's no campaign against the EU on the basis of opposing TTIP. I mean, kid yourself that there is, but there isn't. Say you're talking about TTIP, your feeble voice is getting drowned out by the most right-wing of agendas.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> ... Tories are committed to TTIP anyway?
> 
> And you know what's extra odd? There's no campaign against the EU on the basis of opposing TTIP. I mean, kid yourself that there is, but there isn't. Say you're talking about TTIP, your feeble voice is getting drowned out by the most right-wing of agendas.


given the 'neoliberalism from london or frankfurt' discussion up thread- if its that stark and simple why not choose to spite hamerons political legacy by handing him a defeat or a win so narrow it may as well be a defeat? Thinking out loud here cos I'm tempted by spoil or out. If the outcome is the same regardless- more neoliberal austerity, why not choose the spite option?


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> given the 'neoliberalism from london or frankfurt' discussion up thread- if its that stark and simple why not choose to spite hamerons political legacy by handing him a defeat or a win so narrow it may as well be a defeat? Thinking out loud here cos I'm tempted by spoil or out. If the outcome is the same regardless- more neoliberal austerity, why not choose the spite option?



a) this is like all the silliness around AV where some of youse genuinely thought a vote against would lead to a collapse in the coalition, of course it didn't, and b) it will still be a victory for numerous other very nasty fuckers, even if you fuck Cameron over. Is it really worth that?


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> he would need to make a right-wing economic case for why London would be better off outside the EU




.....some of the hedge-fund sector seem to be backing a brexit scenario - none of the big banks ofcourse :   including Hintze who has spunked considerable moolah into tory coffers...

Why are hedge funds supporting Brexit?

...for Johnson hoovering up the euro-sceptic sector of the party in one fell swoop must be a temptingly ripe & shiny looking apple just hanging there seeing as he's a lazy bastard who has never afaik made the slightest effort to schmooze the all the knuckel-draggers & backwoodsmen on the backbenches as Osborne has assiduosly been doing over the years....( not been in Parliament that long anyway tbf )


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> given the 'neoliberalism from london or frankfurt' discussion up thread- if its that stark and simple why not choose to spite hamerons political legacy by handing him a defeat or a win so narrow it may as well be a defeat? Thinking out loud here cos I'm tempted by spoil or out. If the outcome is the same regardless- more neoliberal austerity, why not choose the spite option?


Going out and spoiling your vote isn't doing nothing. If there were a mass spoil, it could make some difference. I don't see any less bad option at the moment.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> a) this is like all the silliness around AV where some of youse genuinely thought a vote against would lead to a collapse in the coalition, of course it didn't, and b) it will still be a victory for numerous other very nasty fuckers, even if you fuck Cameron over. Is it really worth that?



Nothing silly about it, the party would continue but it'd be nice to end camerons career on a shit note for him. And he is on the way out soon, voluntarily so. If as you say its irrelevant cos its neoliberal austerity either way then spite at will surely?
TBH the thought of lining up with hammer-of-the-muslim-hollobone is leaning me toward abstention. Victory for who though? UKIP? the tory right wing? Earlier you were saying the vote was irrelevant and its neoliberal austerity either way and now you're saying dark forces would be handed a result from a no?


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Nothing silly about it, the party would continue but it'd be nice to end camerons career on a shit note for him. And he is on the way out soon, voluntarily so. If as you say its irrelevant cos its neoliberal austerity either way then spite at will surely?
> TBH the thought of lining up with hammer-of-the-muslim-hollobone is leaning me toward abstention. Victory for who though? UKIP? the tory right wing? Earlier you were saying the vote was irrelevant and its neoliberal austerity either way and now you're saying dark forces would be handed a result from a no?



I waded in straight away with 'a no vote would be a victory for the most reactionary elements of the right', doesn't change the fact I think the vote is irrelevant or that I will abstain, in the same way some of you lot are saying you'll abstain or spoil and yet clearly lean towards 'leave' for whatever reason.

But yeah, for all the dumb as fuck attempts to put forward a left-wing case for leaving it's UKIP, the Tory right, etc. who are leading the campaign, who have the loudest voices, and who people will be swayed by. A leave vote _will_ be a victory for them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> .....some of the hedge-fund sector seem to be backing a brexit scenario - none of the big banks ofcourse :   including Hintze who has spunked considerable moolah into tory coffers...
> 
> Why are hedge funds supporting Brexit?


And isn't that precisely why it would be political suicide for Johnson to support brexit? Capitalists who make money out of others losing money want it.

I may be proved wrong, but I don't see any way that Johnson will support anything other than 'in', even if he may profess reluctance.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And isn't that precisely why it would be political suicide for Johnson to support brexit? Capitalists who make money out of others losing money want it.



As opposed to Goldman Sachs?


----------



## hash tag (Feb 18, 2016)

Johnston is clearly showing his colours now in putting his own ambitions before that of his party and those of his country by sitting on the fence over what many decribe the biggest decision this country has had to make in years. How on earth could someone like that be made leader of the party and potentially leader of the country. He clearly can't be trusted to put the interests of the country before his own political gain. I think we should appoint him as governor of the Falklands.
It's not that we didnt see it coming Boris must go


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

I think I can predict the future 

Cameron will come back with a typical EU cobbled together fudged compromise, that he can spin as a good deal. But it will not be legally binding or irreversible and it will not change any treaty. If the British people buy it and vote to stay in that will be the end of it, but if they vote to leave there will be another renegotiation and another referendum in a couple of years.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> I think I can predict the future
> 
> Cameron will come back with a typical EU cobbled together fudged compromise, that he can spin as a good deal. But it will not be legally binding or irreversible and it will not change any treaty. If the British people buy it and vote to stay in that will be the end of it, but if they vote to leave there will be another renegotiation and another referendum in a couple of years.



Nope.  Be a bit rapey not to take NO as an answer.	Deal if it happens will be a 'triumph' not even the media will buy.   Can't be legally binding anyway.
If vote goes IN we get new treaty in a couple of years, with a referendum, and they get to say is influenced by outers concerns. OUT and we a have another debate on how far OUT actually means


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> The point is that staying in the EU will mean no one _ever_ nationalising* anything - ever! A vote to leave the EU is a vote to begin a battle on the home front. That battle will begin with big losses no doubt, but fighting on a national level is far more likely to bring about eventual victories because the EU is just too big to even contemplate fighting against. It's scale and disconnection from local communities and people is just to great.
> 
> 
> *Not that nationalisation is a panacea. It just highlights one example of the limits imposed on us from Brussels.



So the inherent nationalism in this position isn't even hidden, basically.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> Nope.  Be a bit rapey not to take NO as an answer.	Deal if it happens will be a 'triumph' not even the media will buy.   Can't be legally binding anyway.
> If vote goes IN we get new treaty in a couple of years, with a referendum, and they get to say is influenced by outers concerns. OUT and we a have another debate on how far OUT actually means


Why can't "his deal" be legally binding?
Iirc Ireland voted no to the Euro and they just had another vote to change that to yes (if the UK votes out then a number of other countries will have massive pressure to also hold a vote).


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> I think I can predict the future
> 
> Cameron will come back with a typical EU cobbled together fudged compromise, that he can spin as a good deal. But it will not be legally binding or irreversible and it will not change any treaty. If the British people buy it and vote to stay in that will be the end of it, but if they vote to leave there will be another renegotiation and another referendum in a couple of years.



Guess, you are going by previous referendums in Eire and France,but that was for new legislation to take whole thing forward with single countries being perceived as road blocking the others.   The UK one, would be seen more like Captain Oates calling for a second ballot after he said he'd step outside.



eta was writing as you replied Not legal binding -  well, undermines EUropean Parliamentary Sovereignty for a start

Not a bad piece on what is going on today What Could Possibly Go Wrong at the European Council?


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> Guess, you are going by previous referendums in Eire and France,but that was for new legislation to take whole thing forward with single countries being perceived as road blocking the others.   The UK one, would be seen more like Captain Oates calling for a second ballot after he said he'd step outside


I going by what I think will happen if the UK votes no, there are many other countries in the EU where people don't like what is going on and I believe will want a vote themselves, that is something the EU doesn't want.

This is a big gamble and could have unforeseen consequences for the whole European experiment.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> I going by what I think will happen if the UK votes no, there are many other countries in the EU where people don't like what is going on and I believe will want a vote themselves, that is something the EU doesn't want.
> 
> This is a big gamble and could have unforeseen consequences for the whole European experiment.



How many of those countries have a strong 'out' vote though?  I get the feeling that whilst there are lot of people pissed with the EU there isn't any strong movement in other countries to drop out.  France with FN but they are not in power and may never be.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> I going by what I think will happen if the UK votes no, there are many other countries in the EU where people don't like what is going on and I believe will want a vote themselves, that is something the EU doesn't want.
> 
> This is a big gamble and could have unforeseen consequences for the whole European experiment.



I'm inclined to agree there would be some sort of cascade.  But I don't see how you don't invoke Article 50 in the event of an Out vote, and that, regardless of what some are saying, is a one way ticket.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> How many of those countries have a strong 'out' vote though?  I get the feeling that whilst there are lot of people pissed with the EU there isn't any strong movement in other countries to drop out.  France with FN but they are not in power and may never be.


I think there are lots of countries where people have changed their view on the EU. I have no idea if that is a majority or not, but the people I meet from all over Europe seem to say they don't want it anymore, they like the idea of a trading block but don't like the way things are moving towards a united states of Europe.

I don't live in Europe and tend to meet these people are various conferences, but I would guess the "don't like it" are a big majority of people I meet, I meet very few people who say they think the EU is good. Clearly this is not scientific, just what I hear and means very little in terms of evidence.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> The point is that staying in the EU will mean no one _ever_ nationalising* anything - ever! A vote to leave the EU is a vote to begin a battle on the home front. That battle will begin with big losses no doubt, but fighting on a national level is far more likely to bring about eventual victories because the EU is just too big to even contemplate fighting against. It's scale and disconnection from local communities and people is just to great.
> 
> 
> *Not that nationalisation is a panacea. It just highlights one example of the limits imposed on us from Brussels.


This is probably the best argument I have yet heard for voting to leave.

I'm still not so much on the fence as under the fence.


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

kabbes said:


> This is probably the best argument I have yet heard for voting to leave.
> 
> I'm still not so much on the fence as under the fence.



It's just nationalism, plain and simple. If the best argument you've heard for leaving is this, you're a nationalist.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> It's just nationalism, plain and simple. If the best argument you've heard for leaving is this, you're a nationalist.


No, that's not correct. 

You're definitely losing this round, speaking as the one waiting to be convinced.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> I think there are lots of countries where people have changed their view on the EU. I have no idea if that is a majority or not, but the people I meet from all over Europe seem to say they don't want it anymore, they like the idea of a trading block but don't like the way things are moving towards a united states of Europe.
> 
> I don't live in Europe and tend to meet these people are various conferences, but I would guess the "don't like it" are a big majority of people I meet, I meet very few people who say they think the EU is good. Clearly this is not scientific, just what I hear and means very little in terms of evidence.


http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

kabbes said:


> No, that's not correct.
> 
> You're definitely losing this round, speaking as the one waiting to be convinced.



I'm not going to convince you if you were convinced by that, because it's so obvious. How will a vote to leave benefit _anybody other _than the far-right? Where is this left-wing movement that will pick up the struggle against neoliberalism on a national basis? And why is this considered a) a realistic struggle, b) a desirable one, rather than an international movement? 

Taken from elsewhere:



> There's also the issue of immigration/racism. It's absolutely inevitable that the main drivers and beneficiaries of "Brexit" will be the nationalist right and far-right. The referendum will be fought pretty much entirely on the issue of immigration and any post-Brexit scenario will be an absolute carnival of racist reaction. It's not even clear what the status of migrants who've come here under EU freedom of movement laws would be. Certainly those who've come alone and left partners, etc., behind would have a hard time bringing their families over.
> 
> My union, RMT, has a relatively good record, in my workplace at least, of organising migrant workers, including Bulgarian and Romanian migrants. But RMT is also the leading pro-Brexit union, and explicitly anti-freedom-of-movement and pro-immigration controls. So we're saying to our Bulgarian and Romanian members, "join the union and fight for your rights, but by the way we really wish the laws which allowed you to come here didn't exist and will be doing our best to get them scrapped."
> 
> ...


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf



Excellent 44 pages of fun there.



1%er said:


> I think there are lots of countries where people have changed their view on the EU. I have no idea if that is a majority or not, but the people I meet from all over Europe seem to say they don't want it anymore, they like the idea of a trading block but don't like the way things are moving towards a united states of Europe.
> 
> I don't live in Europe and tend to meet these people are various conferences, but I would guess the "don't like it" are a big majority of people I meet, I meet very few people who say they think the EU is good. Clearly this is not scientific, just what I hear and means very little in terms of evidence.



My suspicion is that it varies from country to country but while there may be dislike, distrust and annoyance with the EU there isn't as strong a 'out' movement anywhere else as there is in the UK.  I dunno.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> I'm not going to convince you if you were convinced by that, because it's so obvious. How will a vote to leave benefit _anybody other _than the far-right? Where is this left-wing movement that will pick up the struggle against neoliberalism on a national basis? And why is this considered a) a realistic struggle, b) a desirable one, rather than an international movement?
> 
> Taken from elsewhere:



I don't where your quote is taken from but I completely disagree with the first paragraph.  I don't think the out campaign will focus exclusively on immigration, they will instead attempt to mirror the positive campaign ran in Scotland recently.  They know full well that it will be fear-mongering from the remain camp so the only way to counter that is positivity.  This is one of the main reasons why no one wants Farage or UKIP anywhere near the official campaign.

Secondly should Britain opt for out it will not be a carnival of racism, well anymore then it is already.  Total rot.  Getting fixated on the far right who are tiny in the UK distracts us from whom is doing the real damage and how they get away with it.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf


After a quick scan, I thought I say "they would say that wouldn't they", but I'm not really sure it is that positive for the EU considering it was their poll.


Teaboy said:


> My suspicion is that it varies from country to country but while there may be dislike, distrust and annoyance with the EU there isn't as strong a 'out' movement anywhere else as there is in the UK.  I dunno.


On what do you base your opinion that there isn't a strong "out" movement in other EU countries?

The "don't like" people tend to talk about immigration/migration, the remoteness of politics and the effect the EU is having on their own countries laws.


----------



## caleb (Feb 18, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I don't where your quote is taken from but I completely disagree with the first paragraph.  I don't think the out campaign will focus exclusively on immigration, they will instead attempt to mirror the positive campaign ran in Scotland recently.  They know full well that it will be fear-mongering from the remain camp so the only way to counter that is positivity.  This is one of the main reasons why no one wants Farage or UKIP anywhere near the official campaign.
> 
> Secondly should Britain opt for out it will not be a carnival of racism, well anymore then it is already.  Total rot.  Getting fixated on the far right who are tiny in the UK distracts us from whom is doing the real damage and how they get away with it.



How did "the referendum will be fought pretty much entirely on the issue of immigration" become simply "the out campaign" - it's clear that both sides will put immigration at the centre of their arguments for or against, Cameron is certainly banking on doing so. The tone is going to be very low on both sides, I think.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I don't where your quote is taken from but I completely disagree with the first paragraph.  I don't think the out campaign will focus exclusively on immigration, they will instead attempt to mirror the positive campaign ran in Scotland recently.


There isn't going to be just one 'out' campaign, though, is there? UKIP and the xenophobes will run one campaign, which, presumably, will be avoided like the plague by anyone campaigning from other perspectives.

The propaganda on this has already started to take shape. First story on BBC radio 6pm news yesterday was Cameron's negotiations at the EU. Second story was the announcement of the number of Bulgarians and Romanians that came to the UK last year. Clearly these figures were released tactically, and the BBC was more than willing to play along.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> How did "the referendum will be fought pretty much entirely on the issue of immigration" become simply "the out campaign" - it's clear that both sides will put immigration at the centre of their arguments for or against, Cameron is certainly banking on doing so. The tone is going to be very low on both sides, I think.



Depressingly so.  Personally can't see any logical reason to remain in EU, but think leaving EEA would be economic suicide...however that wouldn't change immigration -freedom of movement and all that, so you don't hear the case.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There isn't going to be just one 'out' campaign, though, is there? UKIP and the xenophobes will run one campaign, which, presumably, will be avoided like the plague by anyone campaigning from other perspectives.
> 
> The propaganda on this has already started to take shape. First story on BBC radio 6pm news yesterday was Cameron's negotiations at the EU. Second story was the announcement of the number of Bulgarians and Romanians that came to the UK last year. Clearly these figures were released tactically, and the BBC was more than willing to play along.



There will be one over arching group decided by the Electoral Commission that is eligible for tax payer funding (hence the current bun fight)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> There will be one over arching group decided by the Electoral Commission that is eligible for tax payer funding (hence the current bun fight)


In that case, it's fucked. Can't see that campaign being dominated by anyone other than UKIP and the eurosceptic wing of the Tory party.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

caleb said:


> How did "the referendum will be fought pretty much entirely on the issue of immigration" become simply "the out campaign" - it's clear that both sides will put immigration at the centre of their arguments for or against, Cameron is certainly banking on doing so. The tone is going to be very low on both sides, I think.



Nah, it all be on the economy and money it peoples back pocket.  Sure immigration will be a factor as will many other but its all about the money as per.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There isn't going to be just one 'out' campaign, though, is there? UKIP and the xenophobes will run one campaign, which, presumably, will be avoided like the plague by anyone campaigning from other perspectives.



No but there will only be one campaign that gets the funding and consequently will get more private funding and air time.  The other campaigns will be reduced trestle tables at church halls getting very limited media attention.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In that case, it's fucked. Can't see that campaign being dominated by anyone other than UKIP and the eurosceptic wing of the Tory party.


Probably. Yes Scotland had lots of strands and messages got out,it was the energy on the ground that made it snowball. But the lack of co-ordination cost it the referendum


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In that case, it's fucked. Can't see that campaign being dominated by anyone other than UKIP and the eurosceptic wing of the Tory party.



It will be full of tories for sure but not much UKIP if any and quite a lot of business types.  Probably headed by Grayling or some other useless twat.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

I can't see it happening, but what would happen if Cameron doesn't get "a good deal", would he really return to the UK and say "we should leave"?


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> No but there will only be one campaign that gets the funding and consequently will get more private funding and air time.  The other campaigns will be reduced trestle tables at church halls getting very limited media attention.



Don't knock trestle tables.  We had 4 public meetings in Leith over Scottish Independence all well attended, there were trestle tables come rain or shine on Leith Walk, the local engagement was what gave it a buzz.   Main stream media won the day however.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> I can't see it happening, but what would happen if Cameron doesn't get "a good deal", would he really return the the UK and say "we should leave"?



He's certainly not immune to losing his rag when he doesn't get his way.  I think if he got no deal at all or as close as damn it then he would have to, to save face if nothing else.  That being said, we all know what is going to happen and quite frankly I don't think it will make much of a difference to the vote.  Most of what is being argued about is either technical bollocks about the city of London or vague bollocks that most people can't be arsed with.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> I can't see it happening, but what would happen if Cameron doesn't get "a good deal", would he really return to the UK and say "we should leave"?


Whatever deal he returns with will be trumpeted as 'a good deal'. That's the game.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever deal he returns with will be trumpeted as 'a good deal'. That's the game.


it would be a better deal if he didn't return


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever deal he returns with will be trumpeted as 'a good deal'. That's the game.


That's for sure


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 18, 2016)

In my preferred version of the world, Cameron would be competing against a mystery EU central banker via phone, while all the other leaders stand around at lecterns, and reveal just how little they are prepared to concede to the UK via the medium of opening red boxes.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> In my preferred version of the world, Cameron would be competing against a mystery EU central banker via phone, while all the other leaders stand around at lecterns, and reveal just how little they are prepared to concede to the UK via the medium of opening red boxes.


that was the greek referendum.


Were onto pointless now where Mr Cameron has to say what he wants to change and a big graphic line comes down, the closer to "fuck all" he gets, the more likely he comes home clutching his pointless trophy and calling himself a winner


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2016)

HSBC has promised to continue sullying London by not fucking off to the Far East, why do they not seem to give a shit if the UK stays in or out?


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> HSBC has promised to continue sullying London by not fucking off to the Far East, why do they not seem to give a shit if the UK stays in or out?



Could be because unlike other banks most of their business is outside of the EU and therefore it won't have a huge impact on them.  Or could it be that the authorities in places like the US or China might not be so accommodating to their continual law breaking and general shiftiness?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Could be because unlike other banks most of their business is outside of the EU and therefore it won't have a huge impact on them.  Or could it be that the authorities in places like the US or China might not be so accommodating to their continual law breaking and general shiftiness?



Maybe. I really don't know enough about it. All I do know is that HSBC, Toyota, JCB and many others don't seem to care one way or the other. But every day some other cunt pops up to tell us a load of obvious bollocks about what will happen if we leave; in the past 7 days Easyjet's boos said air travel will go back to being the preserve of the rich if we leave, boss of TUI said that Brexit will make flying unsafe. And today those heavyweights of global power, the AA has declared that the cost of petrol will go up if we leave the EU. 

Just sounds like a load of demented wibblers


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Maybe. I really don't know enough about it. All I do know is that HSBC, Toyota, JCB and many others don't seem to care one way or the other. But every day some other cunt pops up to tell us a load of obvious bollocks about what will happen if we leave; in the past 7 days Easyjet's boos said air travel will go back to being the preserve of the rich if we leave, boss of TUI said that Brexit will make flying unsafe. And today those heavyweights of global power, the AA has declared that the cost of petrol will go up if we leave the EU.
> 
> Just sounds like a load of demented wibblers



I guess it depends on how you do your business.  A few years ago I worked for a Norwegian company here in the UK and we shipped all our product from Norway, it was a bit of a hassle because it had to go through customs each time which stuff from the EU didn't, this meant longer lead times then our competition.  If you import or export a lot of stuff to/from the EU being outside it will be a bit more of a hassle, for sure but how much more.

I have no idea how it would effect airlines or tour companies and if flying his going to become the preserve of the rich again then easyjet may as well shut up shop which hardly seems likely.

I think there is another factor with the self proclaimed 'voices for business' and that they are often using their platform to express their personal opinion and dressing it up as 'what business thinks' and 'what is good for Britain'.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Maybe. I really don't know enough about it. All I do know is that HSBC, Toyota, JCB and many others don't seem to care one way or the other. But every day some other cunt pops up to tell us a load of obvious bollocks about what will happen if we leave; in the past 7 days Easyjet's boos said air travel will go back to being the preserve of the rich if we leave, boss of TUI said that Brexit will make flying unsafe. And today those heavyweights of global power, the AA has declared that the cost of petrol will go up if we leave the EU.
> 
> Just sounds like a load of demented wibblers



tbf   Easyjet more pointed out the EU breaking national carriers monopoly made Easyjet possible, which was sort of true if you look at what happened to Laker.  Thought it was RAC not AA, is based on slide of £ but they said negligible compared to oil price fluctuations, TUI I didn't understand though cos that was about Tunisia and something that had happened while UK was in EU


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> tbf   Easyjet more pointed out the EU breaking national carriers monopoly made Easyjet possible, which was sort of true if you look at what happened to Laker.



I understand that, but to suggest it will revert to before European Open Skies is hysterical bullshit though. We have Open Skies agreements with the US now and it's the way the world is heading.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I understand that, but to suggest it will revert to before European Open Skies is hysterical bullshit though. We have Open Skies agreements with the US now and it's the way the world is heading.



depends on the nature of out and how much of the acquis communautaire we take on,  full on out and WE don't have open skies, EU & US do, and WE aren't either


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> depends on the nature of out and how much of the acquis communautaire we take on,  full on out and WE don't have open skies, EU & US do, and WE aren't either




In which case, fuck 'em. Pretty sure that there are more flights from London to the US everyday than whole of the rest of the EU put together. Those airlines aren't going to be grounded just cos we tell the EU to get fucked.

And BMW, Audi etc. are going to shut up shop over here either.


I really want to hear some good reasons for staying, all I'm hearing is rubbish.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In which case, fuck 'em. Pretty sure that there are more flights from London to the US everyday than whole of the rest of the EU put together. Those airlines aren't going to be grounded just cos we tell the EU to get fucked.
> 
> And BMW, Audi etc. are going to shut up shop over here either.
> 
> ...



no Open Skies is a US/EU deal, which we would not be signatories any more.  Rest of EU would still have the deal with the US ,UK wouldn't.
Its why getting too far out of EEA is suicide, but you got the nutterswho are worked up about immigration leading the arguement


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> no Open Skies is a US/EU deal, which we would not be signatories any more.



I know, but do you really think that the day after we vote OUT that the planes will stop flying? Of course they won't, so it will all continue as before until new deals are drawn up.

BA even has an airline that operates solely Paris-New York called Open Skies. But BA is now owned by a company called IAG, which is headquartered in Madrid. All that isn't going to just stop.

I really do want to hear decent arguments for staying in, not sure Open Skies is even a vaguely valid one tbf.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 18, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I guess it depends on how you do your business.  A few years ago I worked for a Norwegian company here in the UK and we shipped all our product from Norway, it was a bit of a hassle because it had to go through customs each time which stuff from the EU didn't, this meant longer lead times then our competition.  If you import or export a lot of stuff to/from the EU being outside it will be a bit more of a hassle, for sure but how much more.
> 
> I have no idea how it would effect airlines or tour companies and if flying his going to become the preserve of the rich again then easyjet may as well shut up shop which hardly seems likely.
> 
> I think there is another factor with the self proclaimed 'voices for business' and that they are often using their platform to express their personal opinion and dressing it up as 'what business thinks' and 'what is good for Britain'.


Norway is a good example of how the UK could work outside of the EU but inside of the European Economic Area as a member of the European Free Trade Association


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I know, but do you really think that the day after we vote OUT that the planes will stop flying? Of course they won't, so it will all continue as before until new deals are drawn up.
> 
> BA even has an airline that operates solely Paris-New York called Open Skies. But BA is now owned by a company called IAG, which is headquartered in Madrid. All that isn't going to just stop.
> 
> I really do want to hear decent arguments for staying in, not sure Open Skies is even a vaguely valid one tbf.




Can't help.  Unless Leave settles on "we can rely on WTO", which they haven't, yet.

Speedbirds are on a G plate so that work around wouldn't work, though in practical terms would be a lot of customs inspections of radio documentation.  In the event of an OUT vote, nothing changes til Article 50 invoked, then there's a 2 year period to sort everything out, the headache one would be EUropean arrest warrants actually, with ample opportunity for £1000 per hour lawyers to question their legitimacy during the state of flux.

What is mental is how little work OUTERS  have put into what OUT should be, in the 20 odd years they've had, but then they are largely 'you don't want to do that' types rather than offing a constructive alternative.   It is a very complex problem that needs more than a back of a beermat solution.  The best of the bunch is flexcite though the two main contenders for out designation aren't using it partially coz the author is as prickly as a hedgehog and partially coz its not the panacea they are after - but nothing is, though completely disadvantaging UK business would certainly reverse immigration figures as most of us had to leave to look for work.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2016)

It's certainly very complex.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's certainly very complex.



take a holding position in EFTA and then move from there over a decade depending on what works politically and internationally


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Get out there and vote for neoliberalism with a European face


It's that type of wanky shit that reaffirms my attention to vote leave. All those nice "leftists" that go to Glastonbury, like that tory councillor who died in the bogs or the tax dodging cunt Bono.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> It's that type of wanky shit that reaffirms my attention to vote leave. All those nice "leftists" that go to Glastonbury, like that tory councillor who died in the bogs or the tax dodging cunt Bono.



You forgot Kate Moss.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2016)

1%er said:


> Norway is a good example of how the UK could work outside of the EU but inside of the European Economic Area as a member of the European Free Trade Association


What, paying 95% of present cost to achieve no voting rights over rulings that have to be observed for the trading 'rights'?
Sounds great!


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> What, paying 95% of present cost to achieve no voting rights over rulings that have to be observed for the trading 'rights'?
> Sounds great!



But you do.  Coz most of the stuff gets global reg'd, and you get a say there, then EU reg'd  and you are pulling 95% out of thin air (but so do OUTERS he argue all EU money could be saved)


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> But you do.  Coz most of the stuff gets global reg'd, and you get a say there, then EU reg'd  and you are pulling 95% out of thin air (but so do OUTERS he argue all EU money could be saved)


95% figure from here.
But hey, not much of this matters.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> 95% figure from here.
> But hey, not much of this matters.



thats why cars look so different in Asia, a laptop you bought in America won't work here (DVD's true) even the bendy bananas thing is WTO

just gone through your pdf link, admittedly just did Find :95  , only vaguely relevant bit is :The Financial Mechanism Office (FMO) is a newer organisation, which has only really developed in recent years, having in total 55 employees today. The greatest challenge for FMO is the onerous task of administering the EEA funds well. But there are also institutional tensions in the relationship with Norway and the two other countries, which are magnified by the fact that these are to a large extent Norwegian funds – both because Norway pays about 95% of the common EEA funds, and because there is an equivalently large individual Norwegian financial mechanism.32 In total, Norway pays about 97% of the funds. To an increasing extent the Norwegian authorities would like to manage this from home, and to use the funds as a foreign policy tool, and this too puts certain structural stresses on the FMO organisationally.



Thats Norway pays 95% of the administrative cost of EEA, which is not the same as EU, and we would be chipping into


----------



## brogdale (Feb 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> thats why cars look so different in Asia, a laptop you bought in America won't work here (DVD's true) even the bendy bananas thing is WTO
> 
> just gone through your pdf link, admittedly just did Find :95  , only vaguely relevant bit is :The Financial Mechanism Office (FMO) is a newer organisation, which has only really developed in recent years, having in total 55 employees today. The greatest challenge for FMO is the onerous task of administering the EEA funds well. But there are also institutional tensions in the relationship with Norway and the two other countries, which are magnified by the fact that these are to a large extent Norwegian funds – both because Norway pays about 95% of the common EEA funds, and because there is an equivalently large individual Norwegian financial mechanism.32 In total, Norway pays about 97% of the funds. To an increasing extent the Norwegian authorities would like to manage this from home, and to use the funds as a foreign policy tool, and this too puts certain structural stresses on the FMO organisationally.
> 
> ...


More details here


----------



## The Pale King (Feb 19, 2016)

So is this just a piece of political theatre tonight then?


----------



## gosub (Feb 19, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> So is this just a piece of political theatre tonight then?



Depends on what level you are talking


----------



## Riklet (Feb 19, 2016)

From a link I just read, even if we voted to leave, it wouldn't come into effect for 2 years.

Does anyone have any idea how UK citizens living in other EU countries might be affected? 

If we vote to leave, I would be tempted to apply for duel nationality, if this became possible here.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 19, 2016)

Riklet said:


> If we vote to leave, I would be tempted to apply for duel nationality


----------



## gosub (Feb 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> More details here



From that report :
It is not possible to compare net payments between those of an EU Member State and those of a Non-Member state. However, Norway’s financial contributions include:

*EU programmes and agencies*
Norway participates in a number of EU programmes and agencies through provisions in the EEA Agreement or on the basis of bilateral agreements with the EU. Norway (and our EEA partners Iceland and Liechtenstein) contributes to the budget of the EU programmes and agencies we participate in. In 2013, Norway’s contribution was around* 296 million euros*.

When the EEA Joint Committee agrees to incorporate programmes and agencies into the EEA Agreement, Norway commits to making a yearly financial contribution to the relevant EU budget. EEA EFTA states fund their participation by an amount corresponding to the relative size of their GDP compared to the GDP of the whole EEA. The EEA EFTA states participation is hence on equal footing with EU member states (i.e. Norwegian projects are also funded).

In addition Norway contributes around *200 million Norwegian kroner* annually for our contribution in the regional cooperation programmes under INTERREG.

so 296 million euros + 26.8million euros = 322.8 million euros

______________________________________________________________________________________
In the same year the UK  paid in 17.07bn euros and got back 6.31bn euros  so net in of 10.76billion euros


In 2013 , the GDP of the UK was 5.1 times the size of Norway's .
Norway GDP | 1960-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News  522.35
United Kingdom GDP | 1960-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News  2712.3


The link you gave warns its a bit apples with oranges.  But 5.1 times 322.8 million euros  is 1.65 billion euros

that would have been 15% of what we paid.  I don't think you'd see all of that 85% saving but you'd see a significant amount.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> In the same year the UK  paid in 17.07bn euros and got back 6.31bn euros  so net in of 10.76billion euros
> 
> t.


I can't click on that link to check it, but one thing to remember is that not everyone in the UK is equal wrt eu spending. Much of the money that comes back to the UK comes in the form of various grants to underprivileged areas. Hastings, for instance, had an EU development grant of some £200 million a few years ago. Narrowing the calculation down to 'is the EU good for Hastings?', the answer is 'absolutely yes' - you can point at the buildings and parks that prove it.


----------



## gosub (Feb 19, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I can't click on that link to check it, but one thing to remember is that not everyone in the UK is equal wrt eu spending. Much of the money that comes back to the UK comes in the form of various grants to underprivileged areas. Hastings, for instance, had an EU development grant of some £200 million a few years ago. Narrowing the calculation down to 'is the EU good for Hastings?', the answer is 'absolutely yes'.



which would be part of the 6.31bn


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> which would be part of the 6.31bn


Exactly.

But why would a person living in Hastings give a shit about the fact that a person in Kensington pays more into the EU than gets out of it? It's more complicated than 'the UK pays this and the UK receives that' - there's a false idea of a 'national interest' here.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Feb 19, 2016)

I think Farage had it correct when he said it would be set up for Cameron to threaten to leave and get a last minute deal that looks good for the UK. 
Not that I mind if it works: in in favour of staying in. But I don't understand why Cameron has risked such a massive defeat.


----------



## gosub (Feb 19, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Exactly.
> 
> But why would a person living in Hastings give a shit about the fact that a person in Kensington pays more into the EU than gets out of it? It's more complicated than 'the UK pays this and the UK receives that' - there's a false idea of a 'national interest' here.



It cost 541 million to get that 200 million, only a wonga customer would think there isn't scope for improvement


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> It cost 541 million to get that 200 million, only a wonga customer would think there isn't scope for improvement


It didn't cost the people of Hastings 541 million. EU development grants go to areas deemed worthy across the EU. The people of such areas could just as easily be taken as a cross-national group that does well out of EU membership.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 19, 2016)

Popcorn time when Hamhead finally comes home declaring peace in our time; apparently Gove is ready to break loose.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 19, 2016)

Unanimous support for UK-EU deal - Tusk - BBC News


----------



## weltweit (Feb 19, 2016)

I am not looking forward to the campaigning before the referendum, there are going to be very strange bedfellows in both the out and in campaigns. And arguments using all sorts of different reasoning arguing for the same outcome. It is going to be a mess!


----------



## mk12 (Feb 19, 2016)

Anyone heard of 'Grassroots Out'? They held a rally tonight, presented by Nigel Farage, at which George Galloway was surprisingly announced as the guest speaker. When his name was announced, half of the 1,500 people in the audience walked out. One activist left because Galloway is anti-Semitic, apparently.


----------



## laptop (Feb 19, 2016)

mk12 said:


> George Galloway was surprisingly announced as the guest speaker. When his name was announced, half of the 1,500 people in the audience walked out.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2016)

Speech is well impressive? Sounds like he's he talking cobblers though


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Speech is well impressive? Sounds like he's he talking cobblers though


you can tell, cos his lips are moving


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Unanimous support for UK-EU deal - Tusk - BBC News


not in this flat


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2016)

Oh and Gove has come out as OUT!


----------



## laptop (Feb 19, 2016)

weltweit said:


> ... arguments using all sorts of different reasoning arguing for the same outcome..!


"The EU prevents Trotskyism in one country!" - guess who...

"The EU prevents Ayn Randism in one country!" - Taxpayers' Alliance.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 19, 2016)

mk12 said:


> Anyone heard of 'Grassroots Out'? They held a rally tonight, presented by Nigel Farage, at which George Galloway was surprisingly announced as the guest speaker. When his name was announced, half of the 1,500 people in the audience walked out. One activist left because Galloway is anti-Semitic, apparently.


yeah my local MP hollobone is a member. We got a leaflet. I think they were in this town around jan 26.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> not in this flat



I don't know, or care too much. Stopped caring tbh. Adopted the stance that if a bunch of wankers want something, then the opposite must be better for most of us. Has worked wonderfully for quite some time now...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I don't know, or care too much. Stopped caring tbh. Adopted the stance that if a bunch of wankers want something, then the opposite must be better for most of us. Has worked wonderfully for quite some time now...


----------



## coley (Feb 19, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I don't know, or care too much. Stopped caring tbh. Adopted the stance that if a bunch of wankers want something, then the opposite must be better for most of us. Has worked wonderfully for quite some time now...


Mmmm, but when opposing bunches of Tory wankers want the opposite of each other?


----------



## coley (Feb 19, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh and Gove has come out as OUT!



No he's still on the fence.


----------



## coley (Feb 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> not in this flat



Or this hoose, the only real concrete thing he seems to have achieved is a level of protection for the 'city'
Who'd have believed it eh?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2016)

coley said:


> No he's still on the fence.


And really, who cares? He might as well be a Cameron stooge in the 'out' camp.


----------



## coley (Feb 19, 2016)

This shiitty charade is meant to convince us that pigpyet has fought long and hard to secure us a good deal, when in fact, I suspect it was done and dusted months ago, the usual Shyte of taking us all for mugs.


----------



## coley (Feb 19, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And really, who cares? He might as well be a Cameron stooge in the 'out' camp.


Couldn't give a toss, I'm voting out.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2016)

coley said:


> This shiitty charade is meant to convince us that pigpyet has fought long and hard to secure us a good deal, when in fact, I suspect it was done and dusted months ago, the usual Shyte of taking us all for mugs.


Yep.


----------



## gosub (Feb 19, 2016)

I 





coley said:


> This shiitty charade is meant to convince us that pigpyet has fought long and hard to secure us a good deal, when in fact, I suspect it was done and dusted months ago, the usual Shyte of taking us all for mugs.


Yes and no.   His proud pronouncement of Tusks letter reveiled the bear trap,   bit of a scrap since then , for a bit of paper I ain't read yet and isn't legally binding. 
Nice of them to finish on time for the 10oclock news and the last editions though

I feel sorry for the chef, how many English themed meals went to waste


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 19, 2016)

How can they fail?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 19, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> How can they fail?



Between them they've got the little Englander and mental hard leftist vote sewn up.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 19, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Between them they've got the little Englander and mental hard leftist vote sewn up.


You stick with the sensible cameron centre.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You stick with the sensible cameron centre.



Right on cue.


----------



## eoin_k (Feb 20, 2016)

Fucked if you do; fucked if you don't: abstentions the only platform I can make sense of...


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Feb 20, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> How can they fail?



Nigel finally found a tie to match his teeth.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 20, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I don't know, or care too much. Stopped caring tbh. Adopted the stance that if a bunch of wankers want something, then the opposite must be better for most of us. Has worked wonderfully for quite some time now...


It's a good strategy I've used myself in the past but it seems a bunch of wankers support opposing sides in this and I can't work out which side pips the other to the post of biggest bunch of wankers in the big bunch of wankers presented to me.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/meetings/european-council/2016/02/EUCO-Conclusions_pdf/


----------



## hash tag (Feb 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am not looking forward to the campaigning before the referendum, there are going to be very strange bedfellows in both the out and in campaigns. And arguments using all sorts of different reasoning arguing for the same outcome. It is going to be a mess!



So agree. So far all I am hearing is that the Tory big hitters, Osborne excepted want out, whilst Camerons biggest allie appears so far to be Hilary Benn. I have a feeling that Corbyn wants out. Then of course theres Boris, who will want whats right for him, who many will see as a major influence 

Put yourself in the position of non British Europeans. This jumped up little Brit comes to the majority and says I don't like your rules, it's Ok for all of you to abide by them and I want my own rules. Lets not forget that we did not join the Euro and are out of Schengen. As a European, what would you be thinking/wanting? Oh the arrogance. If they want their own rules, let them have their own rules, let them out of Europe. Just thinking out loud.

The only good thing which may come out of it is Cameron could end up going sooner rather than later, BUT, beware the devil you know. Come on, just get the whole thing over with.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 20, 2016)

hash tag said:


> So agree. So far all I am hearing is that the Tory big hitters, Osborne excepted want out, whilst Camerons biggest allie appears so far to be Hilary Benn. I have a feeling that Corbyn wants out. Then of course theres Boris, who will want whats right for him, who many will see as a major influence


Corbyn has signed the Labour party up for STAY, at least half of the cabinet are backing Cameron (I suspect it may be more in the end), there are only four confirmed cabinet Leave's so far.



hash tag said:


> Put yourself in the position of non British Europeans. This jumped up little Brit comes to the majority and says I don't like your rules, it's Ok for all of you to abide by them and I want my own rules. Lets not forget that we did not join the Euro and are out of Schengen. As a European, what would you be thinking/wanting? Oh the arrogance. If they want their own rules, let them have their own rules, let them out of Europe. Just thinking out loud.


Oh fuck off. It's one thing to vote STAY on the basis that you think that will rein in the Tories, but don't defend the fucking  EU and the cunts in Brussels whose policies have directly led to deaths in Greece. As if those vermin at this meeting represent Europe. FFS.


----------



## FiFi (Feb 20, 2016)

Doctor Carrot said:


> It's a good strategy I've used myself in the past but it seems a bunch of wankers support opposing sides in this and I can't work out which side pips the other to the post of biggest bunch of wankers in the big bunch of wankers presented to me.


Exactly. My usual strategy for deciding big national issues will be made quite tricky this time because I can't decide which bunch of wankers I dislike most. 



PS - my iPad keeps trying to autocorrect the word wankers to "walkers"


----------



## andysays (Feb 20, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Between them they've got the little Englander and mental hard leftist vote sewn up.



They're both fedora wearers too, so that's another little segment of the electorate they can rely on


----------



## Combustible (Feb 20, 2016)

hash tag said:


> Put yourself in the position of non British Europeans. This jumped up little Brit comes to the majority and says I don't like your rules, it's Ok for all of you to abide by them and I want my own rules. Lets not forget that we did not join the Euro and are out of Schengen. As a European, what would you be thinking/wanting? Oh the arrogance. If they want their own rules, let them have their own rules, let them out of Europe. Just thinking out loud.



Which Europeans do you mean? These are the rules of the European Union, they are not the rules of the average European. Or do you mean senior EU bureaucrats and other European leaders? Because despite what many smug liberals seem to believe they are not prepared to just sit there and let  silly uncouth jumped up Britain leave if they want to. They know that the UK leaving would be a disaster for the EU, politically, strategically and economically. That is why instead of the blase attitude you seem to think they have, they are perfectly prepared to work with Cameron to get what they all want, enough token changes to help him win the referendum. 

It's quite telling that very similar arguments were used in the case of Greece. They signed up to the EU but now they want to change the rules. Well they shouldn't be allowed to and instead must face their deserved collective punishment.


----------



## coley (Feb 20, 2016)

Combustible said:


> Which Europeans do you mean? These are the rules of the European Union, they are not the rules of the average European. Or do you mean senior EU bureaucrats and other European leaders? Because despite what many smug liberals seem to believe they are not prepared to just sit there and let  silly uncouth jumped up Britain leave if they want to. They know that the UK leaving would be a disaster for the EU, politically, strategically and economically. That is why instead of the blase attitude you seem to think they have, they are perfectly prepared to work with Cameron to get what they all want, enough token changes to help him win the referendum.
> 
> It's quite telling that very similar arguments were used in the case of Greece. They signed up to the EU but now they want to change the rules. Well they shouldn't be allowed to and instead must face their deserved collective punishment.


Aye whey, we are going to have the chance to dump the whole shitty bunch of them, the Greeks should have left and told them to whistle for their money.


----------



## bi0boy (Feb 20, 2016)

Who is that between Farage and Galloway


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2016)

andysays said:


> They're both fedora wearers too, so that's another little segment of the electorate they can rely on



I'm a proud fedora-wearer, and I'd never give my vote to either of those egotistical chihuahua molesters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Who is that between Farage and Galloway



Dunno.
Looks like he's just cum in his pants, though.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

Tom Pursglove Tory MP for Corby


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 20, 2016)

those Grassroots Out ties are fucking rank.


bi0boy said:


> Who is that between Farage and Galloway


Tom Pursglove, Conservative MP for Corby. The gorm is not strong with that one

other GO bigwigs include Peter Bone and Kate Hooey


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Dunno.
> Looks like he's just cum in his pants, though.


Hoey looks like he's just cum in hers. Or maybe that was galloway.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> other GO bigwigs include Peter Bone and Kate Hooey



How could you tell that just from the picture?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 20, 2016)

.


----------



## andysays (Feb 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm a proud fedora-wearer, and I'd never give my vote to either of those egotistical chihuahua molesters.



I was wondering about you when I wrote my comment.

So would it be true to say this issue is likely to cause a schism amongst National Association of Fedora Fanciers members?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2016)

andysays said:


> I was wondering about you when I wrote my comment.
> 
> So would it be true to say this issue is likely to cause a schism amongst National Association of Fedora Fanciers members?



It'd be true to say that a faction of us are forming an armed wing with a view to liquidating the traitors Galloway and Farage, as well as their followers.
We are calling ourselves "Militant Union of Fedora Fetishists".


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 20, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> other GO bigwigs include Peter Bone and Kate Hooey



Is Peter Bone any relation to anarchist Ian Bone?  Probably a stupid suggestion but it isn't that common a surname!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 20, 2016)

not a chance


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> We are calling ourselves "Militant Union of Fedora Fetishists".



A group of people from all ethnicities and backgrounds. It's fair to call the MUFF diverse. So who ya gonna call...?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 20, 2016)

MUFF Diverse!


----------



## Beermoth (Feb 20, 2016)

bi0boy said:


>


_
Dallas_ cast are getting on a bit now.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 20, 2016)

So Cameron has negotiated some very small changes to the UK relationship with Europe, but he is holding the referendum before these small changes have been confirmed by the European parliament. He says this is the biggest decision for a lifetime and wants people to vote on it without knowing if it will be agreed in full.

Will the circus over the last few days really make much difference to the way people vote?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 20, 2016)

1%er said:


> Will the circus over the last few days really make much difference to the way people vote?


If anything I think its given ammunition for the Exit campaign, as it shows how hard it is to have control or influence within the union.

If the referendum vote goes to leave, there is the possibility Cameron will stand down and a snap election will be called. <something i read a few weeks ago. In fact even if the vote goes Camerons way he might stand down supposedly...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2016)

Oh dear






They've gone for the slogan

The safe option is to #*VoteLeave*


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 20, 2016)

IDS passing a particularly difficult stool there


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2016)

Gove has already passed his, and is looking particularly pleased about it. 

Can't quite make out the signatures. Bloke on the left is John whatsit. Woman next to him is Thora something?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 20, 2016)

Please someone photoshop that sign


----------



## agricola (Feb 20, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Gove has already passed his, and is looking particularly pleased about it.
> 
> Can't quite make out the signatures. Bloke on the left is John whatsit. Woman next to him is Thora something?



Teresa Villiers, isnt it?


----------



## weltweit (Feb 20, 2016)

Thursday 23rd of June.

The SNP don't sound happy as there are elections in Scotland near then.


----------



## hash tag (Feb 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> If anything I think its given ammunition for the Exit campaign, as it shows how hard it is to have control or influence within the union.
> 
> If the referendum vote goes to leave, there is the possibility Cameron will stand down and a snap election will be called. <something i read a few weeks ago. In fact even if the vote goes Camerons way he might stand down supposedly...



Cameron has long since announced he is a dead duck it's just a case of sooner rather than later BUT don't get to excited, just consider who will take over.

As for the circus, my mind was made up long ago and is unlikely to change.

I remain to be convinced where Corbin stands. If he is certain about anything, he says so, if not he seems to hide behind the veil of the party. He has certainly had past doubts.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Hoey looks like he's just cum in hers. Or maybe that was galloway.



Poor etiquette.


----------



## weltweit (Feb 20, 2016)

The cabinet met today so we have the odd spectacle of Hunt actually working on a Saturday!

/from twitter


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2016)




----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

hash tag said:


> Cameron has long since announced he is a dead duck it's just a case of sooner rather than later BUT don't get to excited, just consider who will take over.
> 
> As for the circus, my mind was made up long ago and is unlikely to change.
> 
> I remain to be convinced where Corbin stands. If he is certain about anything, he says so, if not he seems to hide behind the veil of the party. He has certainly had past doubts.



Corbyn gave quite an honest interview on Sky earlier.  He's sort of hoist himself with his own pitard; the matter was debated at last conference with a large IN vote, so he's stuck with offering tepid support for the EU and answering every question "we...".  Individual MP's and Shadow cabinet members free to do what they like, without consequence.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Thursday 23rd of June.


He wants it in June before all the pictures in the press of boats full of people heading for Europe during the summer.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

1%er said:


> He wants it in June before all the pictures in the press of boats full of people heading for Europe during the summer.


P&O operate an all year ferry service


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> Corbyn gave quite an honest interview on Sky earlier.  He's sort of hoist himself with his own pitard; the matter was debated at last conference with a large IN vote, so he's stuck with offering tepid support for the EU and answering every question "we...".  Individual MP's and Shadow cabinet members free to do what they like, without consequence.


1) He doesn't have to do what conference votes for 2) he supports in - so he's not stuck with anything.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 20, 2016)

hash tag said:


> So agree. So far all I am hearing is that the Tory big hitters, Osborne excepted want out, whilst Camerons biggest allie appears so far to be Hilary Benn. I have a feeling that Corbyn wants out. Then of course theres Boris, who will want whats right for him, who many will see as a major influence
> 
> Put yourself in the position of non British Europeans. This jumped up little Brit comes to the majority and says I don't like your rules, it's Ok for all of you to abide by them and I want my own rules. Lets not forget that we did not join the Euro and are out of Schengen. As a European, what would you be thinking/wanting? Oh the arrogance. If they want their own rules, let them have their own rules, let them out of Europe. Just thinking out loud.
> 
> The only good thing which may come out of it is Cameron could end up going sooner rather than later, BUT, beware the devil you know. Come on, just get the whole thing over with.



Boris is in danger of seeming indecisive, he needs to declare soon.

Where does he go? 

If he supports Cameron, and Cameron wins, he will get the Foreign Office (probably). If he supports the 'out' campaign, and they win, then he is likely to be the next PM. Osborne is with Cameron, and a loss would sink him.

I would like to see Boris as PM, but he needs to declare soon, or he is likely to lose the opportunity.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 20, 2016)

As far as I can see the only people who benefit from EU membership are the bosses and the landlords of this world.  I know which way I'm voting and nothing in this 'deal' will persuade me otherwise.

And as for taking child benefit and WTC off families? The only people that ultimately hurts are the children. And it creates second class citizens, which, historically, has *never* ended well.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> 1) He doesn't have to do what conference votes for 2) he supports in - so he's not stuck with anything.


So a man who came in saying he wants to to make the party more accountable to the membership should add the caveat *except when he doesn't agree


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> P&O operate an all year ferry service



They do indeed, I was on one on Monday. (Trip to Belgium to replenish the tobacco supplies.)


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 20, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Gove has already passed his, and is looking particularly pleased about it.
> 
> Can't quite make out the signatures. Bloke on the left is John whatsit. Woman next to him is Thora something?



Whittingdale?


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Boris is in danger of seeming indecisive, he needs to declare soon.
> 
> Where does he go?
> 
> ...



Waiting on tomorrow's statement on beefing up the UK supreme court


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Thursday 23rd of June.
> 
> The SNP don't sound happy as there are elections in Scotland near then.



Tough tittie.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> Waiting on tomorrow's statement on beefing up the UK supreme court



Hopefully he will declare then.

I know that a number of Urbanites don't like Boris, I do though. So do the people of London who elected him twice.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> So a man who came in saying he wants to to make the party more accountable to the membership should add the caveat *except when he doesn't agree


Why would he do that given he _supports _the result of the conference vote? And conference votes are _not _binding despite you imagining that they are.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 20, 2016)

hash tag said:


> Cameron has long since announced he is a dead duck it's just a case of sooner rather than later BUT don't get to excited, just consider who will take over.
> 
> As for the circus, my mind was made up long ago and is unlikely to change.
> 
> I remain to be convinced where Corbin stands. If he is certain about anything, he says so, if not he seems to hide behind the veil of the party. He has certainly had past doubts.


I'm not excited about Cameron leaving, more interested that there could be a general election much sooner than expected. 

I don't think  Corbyn knows quite how to play it and is just going stay as a safer option


----------



## newbie (Feb 20, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As far as I can see the only people who benefit from EU membership are the bosses and the landlords of this world..


sorry, I'm baffled by that.  Have you never travelled round any of the poorer continental countries? In towns and villages across the ones I've been to there are blue _funded by EU_ signs outside schools, playgroups, retirement homes, sewage farms and all sorts, on roads, dams, power plants... They've faded over the years in places like Spain and are still shiny in eg Bulgaria.  There are lots of arguments on both sides but blanket denial of clear internationalist benefit doesn't really impress.


----------



## Favelado (Feb 20, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I know that a number of Urbanites don't like Boris, I do though. So do the people of OUTER London who elected him twice.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2016)

Wow he actually announced it. I didn't actually think he would tbh.


----------



## Favelado (Feb 20, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As far as I can see the only people who benefit from EU membership are the bosses and the landlords of this world.


 
TEFL teachers.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 20, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Wow he actually announced it. I didn't actually think he would tbh.



Sass's love for Boris?


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Sass's love for Boris?



No dave saying the referendum is going to be in june. I honestly thought he would postpone it again or bottle out altogether.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Wow he actually announced it. I didn't actually think he would tbh.


cost me a fiver...thought it would be next year


----------



## irf520 (Feb 20, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> No dave saying the referendum is going to be in june. I honestly thought he would postpone it again or bottle out altogether.



Why would he postpone it? The odds are in his favour and he wants to get it out of the way as quickly as possible.


----------



## laptop (Feb 20, 2016)

newbie said:


> sorry, I'm baffled by that.  Have you never travelled round any of the poorer continental countries? In towns and villages across the ones I've been to there are blue _funded by EU_ signs outside schools, playgroups, retirement homes, sewage farms and all sorts, on roads, dams, power plants... They've faded over the years in places like Spain and are still shiny in eg Bulgaria.  There are lots of arguments on both sides but blanket denial of clear internationalist benefit doesn't really impress.



And Scotland. And, iirc, Wales.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2016)

laptop said:


> And Scotland. And, iirc, Wales.



not to mention Ireland - the early 90's you couldn't get on a road in Ireland without seeing 'paid for by the EU' signs, and given that before the EU funding, Ireland didn't have a single stretch of motorway that went from one city to another, the change has been pretty spectacular.

the EU even paid for the Irish Navy - all of their ships are paid for by the Fisheries policy, the only things the Irish government has to pay for are the crews, any weapons the Irish government chooses to fit, and the fuel. the up front 'so you want to buy a 2,000 tonne warship..' cost was paid by the EU...


----------



## laptop (Feb 20, 2016)

The blue signs I remember in the UK were on the A9 to Wick/Thurso - paid for by the EU as was, I think, the repair of the railway.

I recall _Private Eye_ reporting that successive UK governments have simply failed to apply for similar infrastructure funding for England.


----------



## hash tag (Feb 20, 2016)

He/they didn't want the referendum and dug themselves into a hole with it and just want it over and done asap. I will leave my rants about the gobshite Boris to other threads. Incidentally, I see he has still not shown his hand.


----------



## coley (Feb 20, 2016)

kebabking said:


> not to mention Ireland - the early 90's you couldn't get on a road in Ireland without seeing 'paid for by the EU' signs, and given that before the EU funding, Ireland didn't have a single stretch of motorway that went from one city to another, the change has been pretty spectacular.
> 
> the EU even paid for the Irish Navy - all of their ships are paid for by the Fisheries policy, the only things the Irish government has to pay for are the crews, any weapons the Irish government chooses to fit, and the fuel. the up front 'so you want to buy a 2,000 tonne warship..' cost was paid by the EU...


Then the inconsiderate sods demanded their money back, cue years of austerity.


----------



## lazythursday (Feb 20, 2016)

Large areas of the north got huge amounts of EU funding until the new, poorer countries were admitted. There are still some areas that are eligible most notably Merseyside. The new round of funding is about to begin in fact, and I know of at least one large scale environmental project that absolutely will not go ahead without it given that this government has removed just about every single pot of regeneration / environmental funding.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 20, 2016)

kebabking said:


> not to mention Ireland - the EU even paid for the Irish Navy - all of their ships are paid for by the Fisheries policy, the only things the Irish government has to pay for are the crews, any weapons the Irish government chooses to fit, and the fuel. the up front 'so you want to buy a 2,000 tonne warship..' cost was paid by the EU...



What a waste of EU money. Militant Irish patriots might balk, but given our close proximity surely it would be cheaper to pay the Royal Navy to do it?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> Individual MP's and Shadow cabinet members free to do what they like, without consequence.


What a bastard! Why is this a bad idea anyway? And which members of the Shadow Cabinet are going to go LEAVE? 

A lot of the criticism of Corbyn's position is bizarre, his lukewarm *remain* seems to be the represent the opinion of the lot of voters.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

That would be the RN that has more serving admirals than ships.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What a bastard! Why is this a bad idea anyway? And which members of the Shadow Cabinet are going to go LEAVE?
> 
> A lot of the criticism of Corbyn's position is bizarre, his lukewarm *remain* seems to be the represent the opinion of the lot of voters.


Especially as it's a lukewarm remain that is entirely unconnected to anything Cameron is negotiating. I doubt many people give much of a shit about any of Cameron's 'concessions'.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What a bastard! Why is this a bad idea anyway? And which members of the Shadow Cabinet are going to go LEAVE?
> 
> A lot of the criticism of Corbyn's position is bizarre, his lukewarm *remain* seems to be the represent the opinion of the lot of voters.


It's wasn't a criticism it was paraphrasing what he said.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> What a waste of EU money. Militant Irish patriots might balk, but given our close proximity surely it would be cheaper to pay the Royal Navy to do it?



Aside from the legal, political, policy, etc.. minefield (ha! See what I did there...?), the RN never had any interest in fisheries protection - the RN has always played a key role in the Irish Navy,  uptil quite recently Irish naval officers were trained in the UK, they still do loads of specialist courses here and cooperation could be described as 'close'...

There are very good reasons for each state to have its own capabilities - quite whether the EU should have paid for them however...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2016)

For some perspective...polling past...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2016)

Murdoch's men...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2016)

Fatty Soames seems to be calling Grayling fash!


----------



## Zabo (Feb 20, 2016)

Peston has just tweeted that Johnson is going for out.

Methinks its more about the leadership bids than the EU. Cameron out along with the weasel.

Robert Peston (@Peston) on Twitter


----------



## laptop (Feb 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Fatty Soames seems to be calling Grayling fash!




Errr... Ah!


----------



## Favelado (Feb 20, 2016)

In the event of a UK exit from the EU, what do people think what happen to people like me who live in other EU countries? Anything at all?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 20, 2016)

Favelado said:


> In the event of a UK exit from the EU, what do people think what happen to people like me who live in other EU countries? Anything at all?



Internment for the duration?


----------



## Favelado (Feb 20, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Internment for the duration?



As long as I can stop paying rent, fine.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Feb 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Fatty Soames seems to be calling Grayling fash!




Soames, rather unexpectedly, is worth a follow on twitter. *shakes head at modern world*


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 20, 2016)

Favelado said:


> As long as I can stop paying rent, fine.



Hopefully you will be provided with food and accommodation. In the spirit of European brotherhood.


----------



## gosub (Feb 20, 2016)

Unless you live in Denmark


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2016)

Favelado said:


> In the event of a UK exit from the EU, what do people think what happen to people like me who live in other EU countries? Anything at all?



What happened before free movement of people? From what I remember we could
move freely and settle easy enough as long as we waved a passport around, same as now?


----------



## newbie (Feb 21, 2016)

Favelado said:


> In the event of a UK exit from the EU, what do people think what happen to people like me who live in other EU countries? Anything at all?


it's bizarre that in all the guff about sovereignty and that the position of people like you, and the eurofurriners living here, has been barely mentioned.  I guess now that the campaigns are under way that rather major issue, along with umpteen others, will finally get an airing.

I filled in a form for a replacement EHIC last night- I suppose at some point the Leave campaign will explain how something as minor- until it's needed and then as major- as that will work.


----------



## newbie (Feb 21, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What happened before free movement of people? From what I remember we could
> move freely and settle easy enough as long as we waved a passport around, same as now?


exchange controls


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Hopefully you will be provided with food and accommodation. In the spirit of European brotherhood.


But only wurst and pasta and the odd frogs leg,no beef and Yorkshire pud as they will be immediately sanctioned upon Brexit!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 21, 2016)

Favelado said:


> In the event of a UK exit from the EU, what do people think what happen to people like me who live in other EU countries? Anything at all?



You teach English, don't you? You will have to get a work visa to keep working in Spain, though there will be more competition from returning Spanish folk who now speak fluent English.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 21, 2016)

coley said:


> But only wurst and pasta and the odd frogs leg,no beef and Yorkshire pud as they will be immediately sanctioned upon Brexit!



It is delightful to see in these dark days of uncertainty that stereotyping is still thriving in this green and pleasant land!


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

Favelado said:


> In the event of a UK exit from the EU, what do people think what happen to people like me who live in other EU countries? Anything at all?



In reality? Nowt,the same cosy relationship between the Northern EU states and us will continue even if we leave, however for those states with a Mediterranean or near coastline,the future looks bleak, with or without Brexit.


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> It is delightful to see in these dark days of uncertainty that stereotyping is still thriving in this green and pleasant land!


Ok then,no Yorkshire pudding, he will have to exist on Aldis 'meals for one' a rich smorgasbord of cuisines from all parts of the world


----------



## newbie (Feb 21, 2016)

coley said:


> In reality? Nowt,the same cosy relationship between the Northern EU states and us will continue even if we leave, however for those states with a Mediterranean or near coastline,the future looks bleak, with or without Brexit.


for how long?  tbh that strikes me as fairly doubtful- opposition to free movement of people is so much at the heart of Leave that to assume there will be no medium/long-term effect is a bit fanciful.  Even the special relationship with Ireland would be up for grabs, something to be used as a bargaining chip in the post-Brexit jockeying for advantage.


----------



## laptop (Feb 21, 2016)

newbie said:


> for how long?  tbh that strikes me as fairly doubtful- opposition to free movement of people is so much at the heart of Leave that to assume there will be no medium/long-term effect is a bit fanciful.  Even the special relationship with Ireland would be up for grabs, something to be used as a bargaining chip in the post-Brexit jockeying for advantage.



This. If a UK outside the EU imposed visa requirements on Poles and Romanians - which as you say is the entire point for Farage _et al_ - then the EU would have little option but to impose visa requirements on UK citizens.

There would be appallingly complicated "transitional arrangements" for those already living in EU member states.


----------



## Favelado (Feb 21, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> You teach English, don't you? You will have to get a work visa to keep working in Spain, though there will be more competition from returning Spanish folk who now speak fluent English.



Nobody here wants a non-native teacher so I wouldn't worry about that. It's laws that bother me.


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

newbie said:


> for how long?  tbh that strikes me as fairly doubtful- opposition to free movement of people is so much at the heart of Leave that to assume there will be no medium/long-term effect is a bit fanciful.  Even the special relationship with Ireland would be up for grabs, something to be used as a bargaining chip in the post-Brexit jockeying for advantage.



As much as I hate to admit it, this anti immigration thing is more about Eastern Europeans (with a mixed view regarding Poland) rather than the influx of refugees, which allows the far right (and I don't include most Kippers in this description) to bang the drum and inflame the Sun and DM readers.
The main reasons I dislike about being a member of this exclusive club, is the lack of democratic accountability and the excessive membership charges.


----------



## newbie (Feb 21, 2016)

coley said:


> As much as I hate to admit it, this anti immigration thing is more about Eastern Europeans (with a mixed view regarding Poland) rather than the influx of refugees, which allows the far right (and I don't include most Kippers in this description) to bang the drum and inflame the Sun and DM readers.
> The main reasons I dislike about being a member of this exclusive club, is the lack of democratic accountability and the excessive membership charges.



Not sure it makes much odds tbh.  Whatever the exact motivation behind Leave activists or voters the effect of them winning will be to erect a wall of border and residency bureaucracy where it doesn't currently exist.  Refugees and others from outside the EU already face a wall. EU citizens currently don't, but will in the event of Brexit.  All of them/us.

As for "_lack of democratic accountability_", I haven't noticed any in the negotiations Cameron has been carrying out.  Some tosh about in-work benefits, a populist but financially irrelevant hit on children and something incomprehensible about protecting the City.  Was that what the campaigners have been going on about for decades?  No of course it wasn't, it was decided on behind closed doors.

In the event of Brexit, who will be accountable for the size and shape of the wall, and of all the other changes that will be imposed on us?  Who will decide the precise details of the negotiations between our Plucky Island and the EU, between the Jolly Good Chaps and the US government/Wall St (is there an acronym for TTIP targetted specifically at us?) and what the poxy City can and can't do?   I'll tell you- the Tory government between now and 2020, unfettered so long as their majority holds.  Any new incoming government in 2020 will have to renegotiate anything they don't like.  That isn't _democratic accountability_, it's a blank piece of paper for a redesign of what it means to be British_._


----------



## laptop (Feb 21, 2016)

newbie said:


> That isn't _democratic accountability_, it's a blank piece of paper for a redesign of what it means to be British_._



Which is precisely what the anti-EU Tories want. To be ruthlessly incompetent with no checks or accountability.

And this statment isn't mere rhetoric. It's the view I've formed from encounters with them.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 21, 2016)

coley said:


> Ok then,no Yorkshire pudding, he will have to exist on Aldis 'meals for one' a rich smorgasbord of cuisines from all parts of the world



Is it possible to retain the Yorkshire puds and turn down the roll mops and that would be fine and dandy.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 21, 2016)

laptop said:


> Which is precisely what the anti-EU Tories want. To be ruthlessly incompetent with no checks or accountability.
> 
> And this statment isn't mere rhetoric. It's the view I've formed from encounters with them.



Yep and anyone from the left campaigning for exit is a dimwit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 21, 2016)

gosub said:


> So a man who came in saying he wants to to make the party more accountable to the membership should add the caveat *except when he doesn't agree



Currently.
Why can't people take on board Corbyn's expressed aim of restoring party democracy, and take from that the very real possibility of the membership changing the rules (democratically!) to require the leader to follow the membership line?
It's not exactly a complicated concept.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 21, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Currently.
> Why can't people take on board Corbyn's expressed aim of restoring party democracy, and take from that the very real possibility of the membership changing the rules (democratically!) to require the leader to follow the membership line?
> It's not exactly a complicated concept.



Why doesn't anyone with more than a single neurone take Corbyn seriously? Because he is a dithering clown. He fears assination so much that he is not even attempting to stamp his will on the party.

How could anyone take a man seriously, who advocates spending billions to keep a few shipbuilders employed, by building the next generation of Trident, but with no nukes. What will his next wheeze be? Manufacturing rifles with a solid barrel. It employs rifle makers without having to fire nasty bullets.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2016)

It's the pills.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 21, 2016)

London is London. IIRC you need to be an inhabitant to be able to vote.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 21, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye whey, we are going to have the chance to dump the whole shitty bunch of them, the Greeks should have left and told them to whistle for their money.



They may still do that.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 21, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh dear
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll tell you something, were I Cameron and won the referendum, every one of those people would be out of the Cabinet sharpish.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 21, 2016)

So Boris says he is for Vote Leave

In a statement Mr Johnson said that after a “huge amount of heartache” he had made the “agonisingly difficult” decision to go against David Cameron and “advocate Vote Leave”. But significantly he suggested that a no vote might not necessarily result in the UK pulling out of the EU altogether instead, creating a “new relationship based upon trade and cooperation”. Speaking outside his home, Mr Johnson said the EU was "a political project that has been going on for decades, and is now in real danger of getting out of proper democratic control". Mr Johnson said he couldn't "pass up the only chance any of us have in our lifetimes to put an alternative point of view".

Also on BBC now


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 21, 2016)

newbie said:


> Not sure it makes much odds tbh.  Whatever the exact motivation behind Leave activists or voters the effect of them winning will be to erect a wall of border and residency bureaucracy where it doesn't currently exist.  Refugees and others from outside the EU already face a wall. EU citizens currently don't, but will in the event of Brexit.  All of them/us.
> 
> As for "_lack of democratic accountability_", I haven't noticed any in the negotiations Cameron has been carrying out.  Some tosh about in-work benefits, a populist but financially irrelevant hit on children and something incomprehensible about protecting the City.  Was that what the campaigners have been going on about for decades?  No of course it wasn't, it was decided on behind closed doors.
> 
> In the event of Brexit, who will be accountable for the size and shape of the wall, and of all the other changes that will be imposed on us?  Who will decide the precise details of the negotiations between our Plucky Island and the EU, between the Jolly Good Chaps and the US government/Wall St (is there an acronym for TTIP targetted specifically at us?) and what the poxy City can and can't do?   I'll tell you- the Tory government between now and 2020, unfettered so long as their majority holds.  Any new incoming government in 2020 will have to renegotiate anything they don't like.  That isn't _democratic accountability_, it's a blank piece of paper for a redesign of what it means to be British_._



FFS! The European body which imposes checks has nothing to do with the EU, it has to with ECHR, to which we are at present a signatory. Preventing the ECHR from interfering can be done by abrogating from that particular body, it doesn't involve leaving the EU.

Yes, I do wish us to leave the ECHR, it is unconscionable that a court out-with our borders can arbitrarily strike down our legislation.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 21, 2016)

1%er said:


> So Boris says he is for Vote Leave
> 
> In a statement Mr Johnson said that after a “huge amount of heartache” he had made the “agonisingly difficult” decision to go against David Cameron and “advocate Vote Leave”. But significantly he suggested that a no vote might not necessarily result in the UK pulling out of the EU altogether instead, creating a “new relationship based upon trade and cooperation”. Speaking outside his home, Mr Johnson said the EU was "a political project that has been going on for decades, and is now in real danger of getting out of proper democratic control". Mr Johnson said he couldn't "pass up the only chance any of us have in our lifetimes to put an alternative point of view".
> 
> Also on BBC now



Big gamble Boris. If Cameron loses, he will be the next PM, if Cameron wins, he is in the political wilderness.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 21, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Big gamble Boris. If Cameron loses, he will be the next PM, if Cameron wins, he is in the political wilderness.


I think his choice will go down well with the grass-routes of the party, so while it may cost him in the short term if Cameron wins, maybe long-term 2020 or shortly after, it will help him.

Will his view change the way people vote in the referendum? 

Time will tell


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 21, 2016)

So, the bullingdon boys square up for the prize they both naturally consider their own.

What a dismal spectacle.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 21, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So, the bullingdon boys square up for the prize they both naturally consider their own.
> 
> What a dismal spectacle.


It would seem that is what British politics has descended to, almost as bad as in the USA


----------



## hash tag (Feb 21, 2016)

What a circus that gob shites announcement became. I am sure his views will influence a few people but I don't believe he necessarily wants out. He simply wants to back the winning vote in order to help his claim for leadership. He is not to be trusted.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 21, 2016)

BBC saying Johnson will give the campaign 'real charisma'. Yeah, that's what the debate needs, thanks for that insight Beeb.


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I'll tell you something, were I Cameron and won the referendum, every one of those people would be out of the Cabinet sharpish.


I have no doubt they will be, whatever the result it will be followed by the night of long knives


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 21, 2016)

hash tag said:


> What a circus that gob shites announcement became. I am sure his views will influence a few people but I don't believe he necessarily wants out. He simply wants to back the winning vote in order to help his claim for leadership. He is not to be trusted.



What do you mean he's not to be trusted? He is a politician. *None* of them can be trusted.


----------



## gosub (Feb 21, 2016)

coley said:


> I have no doubt they will be, whatever the result it will be followed by the night of long knives



'Whatever happens in the EU referendum, Cameron is finished'


----------



## Gromit (Feb 21, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> BBC saying Johnson will give the campaign 'real charisma'. Yeah, that's what the debate needs, thanks for that insight Beeb.


Modern politics. 

Who needs facts when politicians misrepresent, ignore, spin, exaggerate, hide, confuse, switch, engineer, underplay, dismiss and just plain fabricate facts as and how they please. 

It's too much like hard work for the voting plebs to find out the facts for themselves. So people are more than happy to just take the word of famous people. The more famous the better. Doesn't matter how they got famous. They must be doing something right.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Is Peter Bone any relation to anarchist Ian Bone?  Probably a stupid suggestion but it isn't that common a surname!


Peter is, of course, Ian Bone's father.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Modern politics.
> 
> Who needs facts when politicians misrepresent, ignore, spin, exaggerate, hide, confuse, switch, engineer, underplay, dismiss and just plain fabricate facts as and how they please.
> 
> It's too much like hard work for the voting plebs to find out the facts for themselves. So people are more than happy to just take the word of famous people. The more famous the better. Doesn't matter how they got famous. They must be doing something right.



Note the FACTS in this post.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Peter is, of course, Ian Bone's father.



Ian is older than his dad, then


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Ian is older than his dad, then


So you're not hard of googling, then?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Ian is older than his dad, then


And you're still here - miracles do happen.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 21, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Ian is older than his dad, then



Who are you?


----------



## Gromit (Feb 21, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Note the FACTS in this post.


87% of science supports my calculations.


----------



## Favelado (Feb 21, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> London is London. IIRC you need to be an inhabitant to be able to vote.



Half the people who voted for Boris will insist in conversation that they live in Surrey or wherever. They don't want to be Londoners. They just want their way.


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

gosub said:


> 'Whatever happens in the EU referendum, Cameron is finished'


If I had the slightest doubt that article would have removed it, we are faced with an unelected government we can never change as opposed to a bunch of wankers and pig gobblers who, if the electorate ever comes to its senses, we can get rid of, no contest!


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Modern politics.
> 
> Who needs facts when politicians misrepresent, ignore, spin, exaggerate, hide, confuse, switch, engineer, underplay, dismiss and just plain fabricate facts as and how they please.
> 
> It's too much like hard work for the voting plebs to find out the facts for themselves. So people are more than happy to just take the word of famous people. The more famous the better. Doesn't matter how they got famous. They must be doing something right.


If his decision leads to an out vote? Gannon Boris


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Note the FACTS in this post.



Aye, but it's not going to be decided on facts is it? It's going to be decided on spin and presentation, more the pity.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 21, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, but it's not going to be decided on facts is it? It's going to be decided on spin and presentation, more the pity.


Possibly, but that person has no right to moan ABOUT FACTS after that post.


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

newbie said:


> Not sure it makes much odds tbh.  Whatever the exact motivation behind Leave activists or voters the effect of them winning will be to erect a wall of border and residency bureaucracy where it doesn't currently exist.  Refugees and others from outside the EU already face a wall. EU citizens currently don't, but will in the event of Brexit.  All of them/us.
> 
> As for "_lack of democratic accountability_", I haven't noticed any in the negotiations Cameron has been carrying out.  Some tosh about in-work benefits, a populist but financially irrelevant hit on children and something incomprehensible about protecting the City.  Was that what the campaigners have been going on about for decades?  No of course it wasn't, it was decided on behind closed doors.
> 
> ...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 21, 2016)

Boris going to Leave is interesting, if Cameron loses then the leadership of the tory party will be open. If he wins...


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why doesn't anyone with more than a single neurone take Corbyn seriously? Because he is a dithering clown. He fears assination so much that he is not even attempting to stamp his will on the party.
> 
> How could anyone take a man seriously, who advocates spending billions to keep a few shipbuilders employed, by building the next generation of Trident, but with no nukes. What will his next wheeze be? Manufacturing rifles with a solid barrel. It employs rifle makers without having to fire nasty bullets.



Try to take him seriously for a moment, a well intentioned bloke with admittedly some dodgy baggage from years ago, suddenly elected to the position of head of HMG official opposition, trying to get his elderly head around this massive transformation in his life!
Disappointed he didn't stick to his principles re; the labour left wants out.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 21, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Why doesn't anyone with more than a single neurone take Corbyn seriously? Because he is a dithering clown. He fears assination so much that he is not even attempting to stamp his will on the party.
> 
> How could anyone take a man seriously, who advocates spending billions to keep a few shipbuilders employed, by building the next generation of Trident, but with no nukes. What will his next wheeze be? Manufacturing rifles with a solid barrel. It employs rifle makers without having to fire nasty bullets.


We have aircraft carriers without any plane to take off from them ffs.


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

1%er said:


> It would seem that is what British politics has descended to, almost as bad as in the USA


In fairness, Boris the arsehole is preferable to Trump by a huge margin, now if Boris was to start talking about building a wall between the North and the South and expecting the North to pay for it? 
Oops, forgot about Hinckley point and HS 2


----------



## coley (Feb 21, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> We have aircraft carriers without any plane to take off from them ffs.


But BAE needs to keep its shareholders happy, do keep up


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> We have aircraft carriers without any plane to take off from them ffs.



actually, its the other way around - the first carrier is owned by BAE while its still being fitted out, it won't be owned by the RN until late this year and commissioned in 2017 - however the MOD owns, and operates, a number of F-35's that are currently in the US as part of the training and flight evaluation programme.

neither will be _effective_ until 2019/2020, but they will become effective at the same time - the 'aircraft carrier with nothing to fly them off' trope is very similar to having a barny about which you should buy first, a car, or the child safety seats to fit in that car - particularly if you buy the car, drive it out of the showroom and 45 seconds later pull up outside Mothercare to buy child seats. its the mark of an ill-informed idiot.

its also remarkably ignorant - we do have an aircraft carrier, and have had from long before the _Invincible_ class carriers were sold to Gillette: its HMS Ocean, she weighs 22,000 tons and her aircraft played a significant role in the Libya operation. you'd assume that those who make out that they are reasonably well informed Defence watchers would have noticed a war and a 22,000 ton ship that looks like an aircraft carrier...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 22, 2016)

Cameron may have cooked his goose. Like Osbourne, hes a smooth shyster rather than an ideological dogmatist, spinning and bullshitting his way out of trouble and basing his politics as much on tactical advantage rather than a coherent strategy - hence this fucking dismal referendum.
The whole  "re negotiating the UKs membership" schtick was always a transparent charade that would only ever amount to some irrelevant tinkering - but still managing to piss off the rest of europe. The anti-euro papers were never going to buy it and he was always going to end up looking like a cunt.
Basically his ducking and diving has caught up with him and hes looking more and more like William H Macy's character in _Fargo - _trapped in a web of his own bullshit maneuvering.

Its quite something how little authority he has over his own party - and how much of them despise him -  when you consider that he won them their first majority government in over 20 years only 9 months ago.

I still think the result will be a vote to stay in - but not by a huge margin. The "IN" camp playing on the fear and uncertainty of voting "out" will see to that. 

But the Tory sceptics will not forgive cameron for winning - they will cry foul and the resulting tory leadership battle will another round of EU rage.

Oh god - wake me up when its all over ....


----------



## free spirit (Feb 22, 2016)

kebabking said:


> aits also remarkably ignorant - we do have an aircraft carrier, and have had from long before the _Invincible_ class carriers were sold to Gillette: its HMS Ocean, she weighs 22,000 tons and her aircraft played a significant role in the Libya operation. you'd assume that those who make out that they are reasonably well informed Defence watchers would have noticed a war and a 22,000 ton ship that looks like an aircraft carrier...


Can't Ocean only use helicopters since the Harriers were decommissioned?


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In that case, it's fucked. Can't see that campaign being dominated by anyone other than UKIP and the eurosceptic wing of the Tory party.


There has been talk the vote leave,supported by the Tory cabinet members is about leveraging a better deal for associate membership rather than leaving, Boris column Boris Johnson exclusive: There is only one way to get the change we want - vote to leave the EU does nothing to dispell that view, associate membership for UK is part of the five presidents plan .   Grassroots out supported by backbenchers actually wants out.  Electoral Commission decides which gets the gig in 6weeks. 

We could potentially be headed to a sham referendum where you can have any colour you like as long  as its black.   Leave is unfortunately going to spend the next month fighting among itself.


RMT also for grassroots


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm gonna vote to leave, fuck europe.


----------



## youngian (Feb 22, 2016)

What else can Johnson do to make his self-serving egomania clearer, grab a baby for a bullet shield? He's put himself before party, country and government because he can't wait his turn to grab Dave's job. 



tribal_princess said:


> I'm gonna vote to leave, fuck europe.


Not exactly a piercing analysis but should be enough to get you into UKIP.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 22, 2016)

free spirit said:


> Can't Ocean only use helicopters since the Harriers were decommissioned?


Ocean's a helicopter platform. It was never an aircraft carrier in the meaningful sense - it could transport Harrier but they couldn't take off from it in any useful capacity.


----------



## Mr Moose (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> What do you mean he's not to be trusted? He is a politician. *None* of them can be trusted.



Which is something you may wish to bear in mind before echoing Farage and Galloway's views on the EU.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Christ, fucking liberals already trying to control the narrative of this whole debate into 'if you want out, then look at the people you're siding with'. Well, all the financial institutions want to stay in, so where does that leave you? Is this really your political analysis?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Christ, fucking liberals already trying to turn this whole debate into 'if you want out, then look at the people you're siding with'. Well, all the financial institutions want to stay in, so where does that leave you? Is this really your political analysis?


Either that or anyone arguing for a _*leave*_ vote is a ideologue, and of course those are _bad_.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Either that or anyone arguing for a _*leave*_ vote is a ideologue, and of course those are _bad_.


I'm rather suspicious of anyone with a firm view, either way. That suggests that they haven't thought this through.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm rather suspicious of anyone with a firm view, either way. That suggests that they haven't thought this through.



It's certainly much more complicated than 'look who else you're siding with'. I hope that this debate (I mean generally in the public sphere, not urban especially although I'm seeing it here already) can produce some more detailed and nuanced analysis of all the pros and cons, rather than 'if you're in you're with this, if you're out you're with this'.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?


----------



## bi0boy (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?



They probably think all the lefties love him


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?



It did seem a slightly strange spectacle - Farage and Galloway. Is that supposed to persuade anyone?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> I wonder why they thought letting Galloway join the leave campaign was a good idea?


Who is they though?


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Who is they though?


I'm not sure. I guess someone must have put together the speakers at that 'grassroots' leave thing though - so them.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure. I guess someone must have put together the speakers at that 'grassroots' leave thing though - so them.


Themselves I expect.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It did seem a slightly strange spectacle - Farage and Galloway. Is that supposed to persuade anyone?



I don't think Farage will persuade anyone, in the sense that anyone who is a fan of Farage is already likely to be totally committed to voting 'out'.

Galloway may help persuade those on the left, although he's never been the same since that ill advised decision to go on big brother. It's a shame Tony Benn is no longer with us.

It'll also be interesting to see which way the Muslim vote goes in this referendum. Not that they will neccesarily be influenced by Galloway either of course.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I don't think Farage will persuade anyone, in the sense that anyone who is a fan of Farage is already likely to be totally committed to voting 'out'.
> 
> Galloway may help persuade those on the left, although he's never been the same since that ill advised decision to go on big brother. It's a shame Tony Benn is no longer with us.
> 
> It'll also be interesting to see which way the Muslim vote goes in this referendum. Not that they will neccesarily be influenced by Galloway either of course.


And we're off. Like you promised to be.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> And we're off. Like you promised to be.



What are you on about?


----------



## youngian (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Christ, fucking liberals already trying to control the narrative of this whole debate into 'if you want out, then look at the people you're siding with'. Well, all the financial institutions want to stay in, so where does that leave you? Is this really your political analysis?



I know what Tory and Labour In campaign narratives are. And I know what Farage and Lawson's Out politics are all about. But what is the left offering post-Brexit? Galloway and Hoey morph between Tony Benn and soft nationalism depending on what day of the week it is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

youngian said:


> I know what Tory and Labour In campaign narratives are. And I know what Farage and Lawson's Out politics are all about. But what is the left offering post-Brexit? Galloway and Hoey morph between Tony Benn and soft nationalism depending on what day of the week it is.


do you think george galloway will have the slightest thing to offer if there's a vote to leave?


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

youngian said:


> I know what Tory and Labour In campaign narratives are. And I know what Farage and Lawson's Out politics are all about. But what is the left offering post-Brexit? Galloway and Hoey morph between Tony Benn and soft nationalism depending on what day of the week it is.



Fuck what Galloway and Hoey think. Fuck Farage and Lawson too. That's my point, stop framing and aligning the debate by just what certain political faces in either camps might want.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 22, 2016)

Can we hope for some kind of inconclusive mess that means both sides have to mow the lawn in their wives' sunday dresses?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Fuck what Galloway and Hoey think. Fuck Farage and Lawson too. That's my point.


And it's a perfectly reasonable one.

But if you are going to say that then you also have to say "Fuck what Cameron and Osborne think. Fuck Corbyn and O'Donnell too"

And then make up your own mind.


----------



## youngian (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> do you think george galloway will have the slightest thing to offer if there's a vote to leave?


The left and trade union No campaign in the mid-70s was to oppose the Treaty of Rome in order to implement a nationalist-protectionist autarky. I don't see how you can even install exchange controls in a world of e-commerce. You probably can with Chinese style firewalls but good luck to George arguing that one on the doorsteps


stethoscope said:


> Fuck what Galloway and Hoey think. Fuck Farage and Lawson too. That's my point, stop framing and aligning the debate by just what certain political faces in either camps might want.


 How would you frame the debate, and if you had any success in doing so than you would be a politician wouldn't you?


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> But if you are going to say that then you also have to say "Fuck what Cameron and Osborne think. Fuck Corbyn and O'Donnell too"



Well that's goes without saying I would have thought


----------



## newbie (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm rather suspicious of anyone with a firm view, either way. That suggests that they haven't thought this through.


Has anybody really thought every aspect through?  I'd be more suspicious of those claiming to have done so than of those currently firmly one side or the other.  

But more generally I agree that it's too early for firm views on the overall question.  I suspect most have contradictory views on the different aspects of it, tend towards Leave because this, towards Stay because that.  Over the course of the runup to the ref the personal weight given to each aspect of the debate will change, both as +/- arguments develop for any given topic and as the significance becomes more apparent.  

Which means that I anticipate that on some specifics individuals will argue on the same side as each other, but will disagree on something else.  It's going to be quite interesting.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

newbie said:


> Has anybody really *thought every aspect through*?  I'd be more suspicious of those claiming to have done so than of those currently firmly one side or the other.


I doubt it, and I'm certainly not claiming that for myself.
That said, if any individual/group representing 'the left' presents either option as anything other than part of the process of accelerated neo-liberalism, they are being completely disingenuous.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

youngian said:


> How would you frame the debate, and if you had any success in doing so than you would be a politician wouldn't you?



Frame it around what is important for a pro-socialist left, pro-working class, and anti-capital standpoint and what realistically staying in/coming out will mean. I've got no answers to that btw, I'm trying to negotiate what might be 'better' in this whole shit situation as much as anyone (having shifted towards out from in which was my position for years). But the predominant narrative we're getting isn't coming from the above standpoint, it's reducing people to lazy notions of 'you're a Tory/UKipper if you want out'. And when that doesn't work, 'you're with Galloway/Hoey'. Jesus.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I doubt it, and I'm certainly not claiming that for myself.
> That said, if any individual/group representing 'the left' presents either option as anything other than part of the process of accelerated neo-liberalism, they are being completely disingenuous.



It is certainly one right wing group against another in some respects.

However I would say 'remain' would be what the neo liberals want. If you want to oppose neo liberal globalisation and the global race to the bottom, I would vote 'leave'.

But then I'm something of a 'soft nationalist' as 'youngian' called it in post#845 above


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

If you support in you support terrorism, if you support out you support terrorism


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If you support in you support terrorism, if you support out you support terrorism


Is that the _benefits driven terrorism _that threatens our _hardworking families?_


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

I cannot believe how much media the Johnson shit is getting, how the fuck are they spinning that out to a third day??!?


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 22, 2016)

Ex-Tory MP for Harlow, Jerry Hayes on Boris Johnson's weathercock politics.


> I have been knocking around politics for so long that I didn’t think it was possible for me to become utterly shocked at the venality, ambition and horror of one man’s ego. But this evening I have been proved totally wrong. *Boris Johnson has proved beyond all reasonable doubt that he is a copper bottomed, double dealing, hypocritical little shit.* For a man thirteen days ago who wrote eloquently of all the reasons we should stay in the EU and who weeks previously had made it fairly clear that he wanted to remain, the reek of u turned burnt rubber and the aftershave of political greed infects the air.
> Boris is a copper bottomed, double dealing hypocritical little shit. The press will destroy him - Jerry Hayes


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> They probably think all the lefties love him



I suspect this is it, just like the Tories and Hilary Benn thought that if he said internationalism three times and mentioned the International Brigades and compared both to NATO bombing Syria then that would be the secret password to everyone on the left supporting it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> BBC saying Johnson will give the campaign 'real charisma'. Yeah, that's what the debate needs, thanks for that insight Beeb.


They're casting him as a kind of 21st century Churchill.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> They're casting him as a kind of 21st century Churchill.


being as everything churchill did was an abject failure until he reached the age of 65 what can they possibly mean?


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

The  BBC called Johnson 'charismatic' 5 times in a 5 minute period on the news last night. Are they hoping it'll become true if they keep saying it?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

(Inevitable?) Petition for "abstain"/NOTA.


----------



## youngian (Feb 22, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Ex-Tory MP for Harlow, Jerry Hayes on Boris Johnson's weathercock politics.


Will the press destroy him or will all be well for good ol' Boris after Ian Hislop sets him up with a few self-deprecating quips on HIGNFY?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> The  BBC called Johnson 'charismatic' 5 times in a 5 minute period on the news last night. Are they hoping it'll become true if they keep saying it?


they should have tried 'well-groomed' over the past five years to see if such would have any effect


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> they should have tried 'well-groomed' over the past five years to see if such would have any effect



If I keep mumbling or perhaps chanting 'in a gulag' enough times will that work?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If I keep mumbling or perhaps chanting 'in a gulag' enough times will that work?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If I keep mumbling or perhaps chanting 'in a gulag' enough times will that work?


together we can make it happen


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

Seriously. I had 5 hours of radio 4 for a drive yesterday, it might as well have been the words 'boris' and 'charisma' repeated on a loop.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

for FIVE HOURS


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

That's basically waterboarding isn't it? There's international treaties against this kind of shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If you support in you support terrorism, if you support out you support terrorism


But if you support out it's racist localist little englander terrorism. Not principled universalist terrorism.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm in a gulag/concentration camp, i don't know whether i should try to break out as i might get killed.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

I know that Aaron Bastani isn't the most popular here but I think he is on the money (heh) when he calls mainstream journos fluffers rather than real journalists


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> The  BBC called Johnson 'charismatic' 5 times in a 5 minute period on the news last night. Are they hoping it'll become true if they keep saying it?


His dad thinks he's been a bit silly

Boris Johnson is making a big mistake, says Boris's own father



> Boris Johnson has thrown away a position in David Cameron’s cabinet following his decision to campaign for Brexit, his own father has said....


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I know that Aaron Bastani isn't the most popular here but I think he is on the money (heh) when he calls mainstream journos fluffers rather than real journalists


Says Aaron as he fluffs himself.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I cannot believe how much media the Johnson shit is getting, how the fuck are they spinning that out to a third day??!?



They want him to be king, because LOL Boris sells papers.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> They want him to be king, because LOL Boris sells papers.


That and it's the only slightly interesting thing around happening around this.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm hoping there's more to it than because he sells papers. Undeniably that's what's happening though.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Fuck what Galloway and Hoey think. Fuck Farage and Lawson too. That's my point, stop framing and aligning the debate by just what certain political faces in either camps might want.


Get ready:


----------



## Ranbay (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm only voting out if I never have to see Farage on the TV ever again.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> I'm only voting out if I never have to see Farage on the TV ever again.



That's a fair point actually. If we vote 'out' that will, ironically, pretty much be the end of UKIP as we know it today,

Of course Farage might go on to something else, but the whole reason for being for UKIP will have gone.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Get ready:
> 
> View attachment 83754


Only a matter of time wasn't it.


----------



## Ranbay (Feb 22, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> That's a fair point actually. If we vote 'out' that will, ironically, pretty much be the end of UKIP as we know it today,
> 
> Of course Farage might go on to something else, but the whole reason for being for UKIP will have gone.



and he will lose his main job of fucking off over there to not vote on things anyway. it's win/win for me really.

plus it will speed up facebook, as all my racist school mates will have fuck all to say about the EU anymore.

the more I look at it, the more I want out now.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Only a matter of time wasn't it.


That's from the AV campaign. I doubt Griffin will feature in the EU adverts.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Only a matter of time wasn't it.


Just to make clear, that was from the AV shambles - but a real one will be along on a minute (we just missed a couple last night).


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> That's from the AV campaign. I doubt Griffin will feature in the EU adverts.


Ah bollocks, should go to bed.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> That's from the AV campaign. I doubt Griffin will feature in the EU adverts.



You wouldn't have thought so. Both he and the party he used to lead are now languishing in total obscurity. Which is where they belong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Ah bollocks, should go to bed.


yes, you should. wish i'd never got up.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2016)

Could someone explain to me... if the UK exits the EU, would it be right to assume UK citizens would eventually end up with an EEA status like Switzerland, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway? What would be the practical changes over the right of abode for both EU people living here and UK people living in the EU?

What about other reciprocal benefits like cheap mobile calls and the human rights court. Would UK citizens lose access to this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Could someone explain to me... if the UK exits the EU, would it be right to assume UK citizens would eventually end up with an EEA status like Switzerland, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway? What would be the practical changes over the right of abode for both EU people living here and UK people living in the EU?
> 
> What about other reciprocal benefits like cheap mobile calls and the human rights court. Would UK citizens lose access to this?


yes


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 22, 2016)

*The campaign to ‘Leave’ EU will ultimately lose the referendum after it was announced the would be led by a team of Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and George Galloway.*

The charismatic and popular trio have put aside their personal differences to make absolutely certain that nobody normal will think voting ‘leave’ is a good idea.

The three will be backed by the Daily Express, which is just the cherry on top of the cake, really.

Leave, which had recently been improving in the polls, is now expected to become a minority interest again when the population takes a good look at who they’d be voting _with_.

“I was going to vote to leave the EU as its utterly shit,” said floating voter Simon Williams.

“But then I realised I’d be supporting a bunch of swivel-eyed nobbers that I wouldn’t dream of having in my house, so maybe not.

“The day I vote the same way as George Galloway is the day they put me on a fucking drip.”


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes



So when the Brexit argument is made about being able to control immigration from EU states, if nothing will change in practical terms, how will they be able to control immigration from the EEA?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> What about other reciprocal benefits like cheap mobile calls and the human rights court. Would UK citizens lose access to this?



Isn't the Human Rights court part of the council of Europe rather than the EU?

As for mobile phone calls, phone companies charge EU rates in Switzerland and Norway, or at least mine does, so I don't think it will affect roaming rates much....


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 22, 2016)

I'd vote for whatever fucks the tory party up the most.

I suspect what will happen is Labour will absorb all the bad karma from whatever result (as with the Scots referendum) & suffer worse than the teflon tories, such is the world.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2016)

Hmm you may well be right but at the moment it's looking to be a bit of a divisive issue for the vermin.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Hmm you may well be right but at the moment it's looking to be a bit of a divisive issue for the vermin.


Yes, the numbers would suggest that the parliamentary party is pretty equally riven by the issue, and the 4 months campaigning should be enough to stoke up a huge reservoir of 'blue-on-blue' animosity.
I suspect that a relatively narrow 'Remain' vote would be very damaging for the vermin.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> So when the Brexit argument is made about being able to control immigration from EU states, if nothing will change in practical terms, how will they be able to control immigration from the EEA?


i don't know


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know


They don't know.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 22, 2016)

Nobody knows. Brilliant. :thumbs :


----------



## Kesher (Feb 22, 2016)

Definitely voting to stay in EU: very much like freedom of travel and right to live in another  country. I can't stand the island nation, monolingual,  mentality.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

teqniq said:


>



farage and galloway are each thinking how much they'd like to put the other up against the wall


----------



## teqniq (Feb 22, 2016)

Heh yeah probably.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

They both look on death's door.


----------



## Cid (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> They both look on death's door.



Galloway's looked a lot worse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> They both look on death's door.


good


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> The  BBC called Johnson 'charismatic' 5 times in a 5 minute period on the news last night. Are they hoping it'll become true if they keep saying it?


I had no idea "charismatic" meant "pitiful".


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 22, 2016)

Better off Out



> *10. Freedom to restore British customs and traditions.*


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I had no idea "charismatic" meant "pitiful".


on the same topic, look at the 'EU Referendum' section of the Daily Telegraph.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Better off Out


sadly a vote to leave will not resurrect graham chapman. or peter cook.


----------



## Ranbay (Feb 22, 2016)

How ever, there will be fuck loads more morris dancing.......


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> sadly a vote to leave will not resurrect graham chapman. or peter cook.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> How ever, there will be fuck loads more morris dancing.......


yes in a desperate attempt to levitate the country back into the eu


----------



## bi0boy (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> sadly a vote to leave will not resurrect graham chapman. or peter cook.



I bet John Cleese would vote leave though, if he still lived here. Palin on the other hand is surely a remain man.


----------



## Cid (Feb 22, 2016)

Which British customs and traditions are banned by the EU?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> I bet John Cleese would vote leave though, if he still lived here. Palin on the other hand is surely a remain man.


tbh everyone would vote leave if it were to bring back comedy greats from the grave - arthur lowe, frankie howerd, kenneth williams, hattie jacques, george formby and so on. however it's not on the cards


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 22, 2016)

Cid said:


> Which British customs and traditions are banned by the EU?



Invading technologically inferior or third world countries.

Oh... wait... nevermind.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> on the same topic, look at the 'EU Referendum' section of the Daily Telegraph.


I'm sorry if this has been said (there are so many threads!), but why do people (ie commentators like Peston) keep saying:

*"The London Mayor's advocacy of voting to leave the European Union is significant because so many voters will listen to him"*

Really? Do people really think he's influential (positively influential, as opposed to "if that arse thinks it's a good idea it must be bad for me")? If they think he's influential, why? What is their evidence? 

It's puzzling to me why he should be thought so.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 22, 2016)

Cid said:


> Which British customs and traditions are banned by the EU?


Bananas.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Bananas.


Haggis too: it's not allowed on planes to France.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

Cid said:


> Which British customs and traditions are banned by the EU?


Badger baiting. Flogging children.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I'm sorry if this has been said (there are so many threads!), but why do people (ie commentators like Peston) keep saying:
> 
> *"The London Mayor's advocacy of voting to leave the European Union is significant because so many voters will listen to him"*
> 
> ...



Like it or not he managed to get into the Mayor of London slot mostly by being bluff and amusing on shows like HIGNFY, his star and profile have fallen somewhat thankfully but theres a real danger that just by being a recognisable name he's got some pulling power.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I'm sorry if this has been said (there are so many threads!), but why do people (ie commentators like Peston) keep saying:
> 
> *"The London Mayor's advocacy of voting to leave the European Union is significant because so many voters will listen to him"*
> 
> ...


I believe he has very good national poll ratings. Lemme have a look.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Like it or not he managed to get into the Mayor of London slot mostly by being bluff and amusing on shows like HIGNFY, his star and profile have fallen somewhat thankfully but theres a real danger that just by being a recognisable name he's got some pulling power.


I'd be interested in seeing how popular he is outside of London. And how much people who voted for him did so because they didn't think it really mattered that he was London mayor. (ie "lol, I'm voting Boris. It's only for mayor. Maybe he'll say funny stuff").


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I'm sorry if this has been said (there are so many threads!), but why do people (ie commentators like Peston) keep saying:
> 
> *"The London Mayor's advocacy of voting to leave the European Union is significant because so many voters will listen to him"*
> 
> ...


It is puzzling to me that he was voted in as London mayor. Clearly there are a fair few people who don't care what people actually do when in office, but are voting based on some other criteria.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

here is some national polling from 2013.

edit: whoops, it isn't there anymore - some analysis of the data here though.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is puzzling to me that he was voted in as London mayor. Clearly there are a fair few people who don't care what people actually do when in office, but are voting based on some other criteria.


Exactly. And even if you voted for the "lovable buffoon" shtick, does that necessarily mean you'll take his advice seriously on something like Brexit?


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is puzzling to me that he was voted in as London mayor. Clearly there are a fair few people who don't care what people actually do when in office, but are voting based on some other criteria.



He got a lot of help from the Standard last time around.  Being a recognisable name helps.  It'll be curious to see how the contest plays out this time round with two non-entities on the ticket.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> So when the Brexit argument is made about being able to control immigration from EU states, if nothing will change in practical terms, how will they be able to control immigration from the EEA?



If we are still in the EEA, the UK can't control immigration, see whats happened with Switzerland since its referendum, so you have a lot of out who Mr Farage has got quite stirred up about immigration, who don't even want membership of EEA.  
There are a load of differing views on what Leave should mean, even a large grouping that don't think Leave means leaving.


----------



## Virtual Blue (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm voting out - only cos I dislike my Spanish friend (who's better at chess and can drink more than me).


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Really? Do people really think he's influential (positively influential, as opposed to "if that arse thinks it's a good idea it must be bad for me")? If they think he's influential, why? What is their evidence?
> 
> It's puzzling to me why he should be thought so.


Sadly I think there are many who would be influenced by him, "because he's funny and a bit of a character", and they're more interested in that than, y'know, politics.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

That said, I expect his 'popularity' is more to do with people being able to recognise who he is, and the relentless hyping by the press rather than actual genuine support.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 22, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> Exactly. And even if you voted for the "lovable buffoon" shtick, does that necessarily mean you'll take his advice seriously on something like Brexit?


I don't think the people who like Boris are the sort of people who take advice seriously.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> He got a lot of help from the Standard last time around.  Being a recognisable name helps.  It'll be curious to see how the contest plays out this time round with two non-entities on the ticket.


He did. Hard even for a Johnson fanboi to make the case that he's been a good mayor, though, based on his record. Best that can be said of him is that he's been too busy writing his Telegraph column (for £273,000 a year, btw) or his buffoon history books to do too much damage.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 22, 2016)

Apparently the paperwork involved for my work when touring gear round Europe will become more complicated if we leave.

So far this is the only argument I've heard that I can even remotely begin to care about. The rest seems to be asking me to choose between eating two differently flavoured plates of shit.

If any of you lot can improve on that I'm all ears.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 22, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> That's a fair point actually. If we vote 'out' that will, ironically, pretty much be the end of UKIP as we know it today,
> 
> Of course Farage might go on to something else, but the whole reason for being for UKIP will have gone.



Would it? Surely they'd just re-purpose the whole thing as a generic anti-immigration populist party? I mean Switzerland still has one despite not being in the EU.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> Would it? Surely they'd just re-purpose the whole thing as a generic anti-immigration populist party? I mean Switzerland still has one despite not being in the EU.


Yeah, and if such a thing is possible, with added smugness. Farage could be eyeing up a place in government.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, and if such a thing is possible, with added smugness. Farage could be eyeing up a place in government.


And if ongoing membership of the EEA means a continuation of freedom of movement they probably wouldn't even have to change name.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, and if such a thing is possible, with added smugness. Farage could be eyeing up a place in government.


Oh No!!!!!


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> And if ongoing membership of the EEA means a continuation of freedom of movement they probably wouldn't even have to change name.



He would call the exit deal, that he will have no part in drawing up a 'betrayal' and carry on regardless.   Its a really fine line coz we could be on the verge of an unbelievable stitchup -In/Out being the same thing, and the Out he's talking about being such economic suicide they can't let that happen either.

Sane out is still in the EEA, (the immigration issue, would not be addressed by this however).


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 22, 2016)

gosub said:


> He would call the exit deal, that he will have no part in drawing up a 'betrayal' and carry on regardless.   Its a really fine line coz we could be on the verge of an unbelievable stitchup -In/Out being the same thing, and the Out he's talking about being such economic suicide they can't let that happen either.
> 
> Sane out is still in the EEA, (the immigration issue, would not be addressed by this however).



And "sane out" would be the ones drawing up the agreements post-Brexit...


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Feb 22, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Like it or not he managed to get into the Mayor of London slot mostly by being bluff and amusing on shows like HIGNFY



If only Angus Deayton had fancied a night in with the missus and a mug of horlicks on that fateful evening...


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> And "sane out" would be the ones drawing up the agreements post-Brexit...



not necessarily.	vote Leave quite heavily in with the Tory establishment, if they get designation Brexit isn't Brexit its a bit more leverage for continued membership of the EU under the associate membership that we would be having anyway.   Like I said its a fine line.  We'll know in 6weeks.


but yep the lunatics aren't going to be given the pen (but then vote Leave would be muttering the same thing and including the EEA/EFTA supporters in the lunatic camp)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I'll tell you something, were I Cameron and won the referendum, every one of those people would be out of the Cabinet sharpish.



Cameron, for a start, won't chuck Dunked-in Shit or Grayling out, they're the darlings of the shire associations - the folks whose donations keep the party looking like it isn't *totally* in the pockets of big business. 
Getting rid of Gove may appeal, though. Neither Cameron nor Osborne enjoy the fact that some child of the _bourgeoisie_ can out-think them.
Whittingdale is a different story. He's made enemies across the Tory party's political spectrum, as has Patel.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> FFS! The European body which imposes checks has nothing to do with the EU, it has to with ECHR, to which we are at present a signatory. Preventing the ECHR from interfering can be done by abrogating from that particular body, it doesn't involve leaving the EU.
> 
> Yes, I do wish us to leave the ECHR, it is unconscionable that a court out-with our borders can arbitrarily strike down our legislation.



They cannot "arbitrarily" strike down "our" legislation. They have to follow a process and actually prove that the legislation they're questioning is, in fact, questionable.

Try thinking before posting, next time you have the urge.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> BBC saying Johnson will give the campaign 'real charisma'. Yeah, that's what the debate needs, thanks for that insight Beeb.


Bore-is has all the charisma of a pavement pizza.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

You lot do realise even if the Leave vote is successful we won't be leaving Europe?

You're not slightly suspicious that 2 Bullingdon Boys leading both campaigns?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> You lot do realise even if the Leave vote is successful we won't be leaving Europe?


its been discussed (not on this thread, think it was an older one) that a 'leave' vote would result in we-the-people being asked again and again untill we gave the right answer


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> do you think george galloway will have the slightest thing to offer if there's a vote to leave?



Not unless he's offering to top himself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> They're casting him as a kind of 21st century Churchill.



*Randolph* Churchill when he was deep in the embrace of syphilis, maybe. Johnson is about as statesmanlike as a freshly-hatched pile of pig-turd.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> its been discussed (not on this thread, think it was an older one) that a 'leave' vote would result in we-the-people being asked again and again untill we gave the right answer



Boris has stated this is about getting a better deal for the UK. So, it looks like a Leave vote will just be used as leverage at the negotiating table with the EU.....rather than just upsticks and fuck off.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Boris has stated this is about getting a better deal for the UK. So, it looks like a Leave vote will just be used as leverage at the negotiating table with the EU.....rather than just upsticks and fuck off.



Who gets designated Lead campaign will affect it, but yep could well be a cynical referendum and we are trapped in a burning building with no fire exits. (as Hauge once remarked of the EUro)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Badger baiting. Flogging children.



Sodomising household pets and/or livestock.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Virtual Blue said:


> I'm voting out - only cos I dislike my Spanish friend (who's better at chess and can drink more than me).



As good a reason as any.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> You lot do realise even if the Leave vote is successful we won't be leaving Europe?
> 
> You're not slightly suspicious that 2 Bullingdon Boys leading both campaigns?



David Cameron speaking in the HoC right now is very specifically ruling out further negotiation and a second referendum in the event of a leave vote.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> David Cameron speaking in the HoC right now is very specifically ruling out a second referendum.



No. That is not what I mean.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

Read the comments above


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Boris has stated this is about getting a better deal for the UK. So, it looks like a Leave vote will just be used as leverage at the negotiating table with the EU.....rather than just upsticks and fuck off.




PM has just stuffed that idea.   Leave means article 50.	 Fuck you Elliott and Cummings.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> No. That is not what I mean.



Well what do you mean?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 22, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> David Cameron speaking in the HoC right now is very specifically ruling out further negotiation and a second referendum in the event of a leave vote.


Can he actually do this though?  If he gets ousted and a new prime minister comes in, what's to stop him or her doing as they see fit?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Can he actually do this though?  If he gets ousted and a new prime minister comes in, what's to stop him or her doing as they see fit?



Nothing I guess. Fair point.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Can he actually do this though?  If he gets ousted and a new prime minister comes in, what's to stop him or her doing as they see fit?


Well he can say it. 

And he's bound to say it, really. Johnson's position surprises me. Vote no so you can get another go at voting? Seems a piss-poor position.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

Lead designation is determined by best fit.  PM at time of calling the referendum has determined,says  OUT means article 50.   
IF the team Boris is part of wants a chance at that they will have to accept that publicly - Grassroots already do.
Once invoked Article 50 is the step off the ledge, you can't use it for leverage.  


A new PM might not invoke Article 50 but the whole world would cry foul.  Especially if its Boris, giving the firming up he will have to be doing over the next 6 weeks


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 22, 2016)

Boris was very humble and coy in his question.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well he can say it.
> 
> And he's bound to say it, really. Johnson's position surprises me. Vote no so you can get another go at voting? Seems a piss-poor position.


It's a terrible position if you mean it.  It's a great position if you are trying to position yourself as all things to all men, though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

kabbes said:


> It's a terrible position if you mean it.  It's a great position if you are trying to position yourself as all things to all men, though.


Well of course he doesn't mean it. Is positioning yourself as 'all things to all men' itself a good position, though? We'll see. Seems tactically pisspoor to me - he loses whichever way the vote goes.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 22, 2016)

kabbes said:


> It's a terrible position if you mean it.  It's a great position if you are trying to position yourself as all things to all men, though.



i fear that for Boris, riding two different horses has brought about an embarrassing fall - it could be pulled off when both horses were going in roughly the same direction, with the referendum however the wings of the tory party are going in opposite directions, and he's been caught without a seat. to mix my metaphores...

Cameron gave Boris both barrels earlier - R5 described it as a series of 'barbed comments', it sounded to me more like a 15ft halbeard going through soft flesh.


----------



## bi0boy (Feb 22, 2016)

Yes I'm struggling to divine Boris's motivation.  How does going with leave further his agenda exactly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 22, 2016)

kebabking said:


> i fear that for Boris, riding two different horses has brought about an embarrassing fall - it could be pulled off when both horses were going in roughly the same direction, with the referendum however the wings of the tory party are going in opposite directions, and he's been caught without a seat. to mix my metaphores...
> 
> Cameron gave Boris both barrels earlier - R5 described it as a series of 'barbed comments', it sounded to me more like a 15ft halbeard going through soft flesh.


so you think he had a foot in both camps but both will end up in his mouth?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 22, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> so you think he had a foot in both camps but both will end up in his mouth?



yes.

there is a long held view that the next tory leader should come from the 'out' camp, the presumption, even within the _tory_ 'out' camp is that 'in' will win, but that for the sake of unity someone known to be archly sceptical should take over from Cameron - in a kind of 'only Nixon can go to China' style thing.

however, Boris has been trying to put his feet in both camps - he _may_ have been trying to articulate that, like for most of us, in/out is a hugely complex decision with plenty of ups and downs on both sides and plenty of 'don't knows', however how he's come across is flip-flopping, and _trying to be seen_ as having feet in both camps.

i'm still putting money on Philip Hammond by the way - he makes Gordon Brown look shrill and rash, i think the economy by 2020 is going to sink young Gideons chances, and Hammonds cabinet posts have been in the areas that Corbyn/Labour is electorally weak on - Defence and Foreign Secretary where he's been seen to do well. he's also _archly_ euro-sceptic, he just doesn't wear shit ties or hang around with weirdos and swivel-eyed loons.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 22, 2016)

kebabking said:


> i'm still putting money on Philip Hammond by the way - he makes Gordon Brown look shrill and rash


25/1 with some bookmakers if you fancy following through on that.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Yes I'm struggling to divine Boris's motivation.  How does going with leave further his agenda exactly.



He probably just wants to feel important for a bit, with an outside chance of being seen as the hero of the revolution.  His star has waned quite a bit, with chances of moving into leader spot after natural wastage at the end of this parliament diminishing as younger stars shine.  It's a last chance for some sort of glory, if he looks foolish at the end of it he'll just laugh it off as usual. Prick. The media are goading him into it, aren't they?


----------



## Diamond (Feb 22, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Can he actually do this though?  If he gets ousted and a new prime minister comes in, what's to stop him or her doing as they see fit?



Nothing - in much the same way that there was a lot of false bluster around the Scottish independence referendum.

However there are two key practical points on any subsequent referendum should an "in" vote be achieved.

First, the chance of obtaining a better deal from the other 27 MS after the current negotiations is laughable.

Second, any "out" campaign would be vulnerable to the highly legitimate accusation that we have been here before, that there consequently is an explicit democratic mandate and that that needs to be respected as a matter of the rule of law.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> David Cameron speaking in the HoC right now is very specifically ruling out further negotiation and a second referendum in the event of a leave vote.


Yeah, pretty bloody obvious what his motive is there isn't it. If the referendum does come down on the side of leave I think there'd be a lot of Europhiles changing their minds about a second referendum.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Yes, the numbers would suggest that the parliamentary party is pretty equally riven by the issue, and the 4 months campaigning should be enough to stoke up a huge reservoir of 'blue-on-blue' animosity.
> I suspect that a relatively narrow 'Remain' vote would be very damaging for the vermin.


Yes, and so would an outright "leave", with the leadership and backers of the party split from the membership. This is one of the reasons why I'm thinking of voting "leave".


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> They cannot "arbitrarily" strike down "our" legislation. They have to follow a process and actually prove that the legislation they're questioning is, in fact, questionable.
> 
> Try thinking before posting, next time you have the urge.



It is unconscionable that any court outside this country can strike down the decision of a British court. That, as I said has sod all to do with the EU. It is the ECHR that we need to ditch.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> *Randolph* Churchill when he was deep in the embrace of syphilis, maybe. Johnson is about as statesmanlike as a freshly-hatched pile of pig-turd.



Rather an insult to the Londoners, who have elected him twice, and were he standing again, very likely for a third time.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bore-is has all the charisma of a pavement pizza.



In your opinion, which is not the opinion of the majority of Londoners.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> In your opinion.


you know how messageboards work, don't you?


----------



## andysays (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Rather an insult to the Londoners, who have elected him twice, and were he standing again, very likely for a third time.





Sasaferrato said:


> In your opinion, which is not the opinion of the majority of Londoners.



As a Londoner, can I point out here that not all of us voted for him, in fact without checking the figures I'll bet you that a majority of those eligible to vote for him didn't, and that I don't feel in the least insulted by VP's* comparison of Johnson to a freshly-hatched pile of pig-turd,

* VP himself being another Londoner who didn't vote for Johnson, of course


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He did. Hard even for a Johnson fanboi to make the case that he's been a good mayor, though, based on his record. Best that can be said of him is that he's been too busy writing his Telegraph column (for £273,000 a year, btw) or his buffoon history books to do too much damage.



Sorry, given the hugely skewed demographic on here, I can't help but chuckle about the comments regarding Boris. It so far from reality that it is almost hallucinogenic. 

Go away from Urban and ask people's opinion of Boris, then have a reality check.

Anyway, I know what Boris has done. I'd be very interested to see if the collective populace of Urban can even come close.

How many published authors on the boards, of books that have been reviewed by the national newspapers? How many MPs on the boards? How many on the boards been elected even to a Town Council? 

If Boris is a joke, what does that make you lot?


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Rather an insult to the Londoners, who have elected him twice, and were he standing again, very likely for a third time.



2008 - Johnston: 43%, Livingstone: 37%
2012 - Johnston: 44%, Livingstone: 40%

And it came down to second round too. Hardly thumping victory stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It is unconscionable that any court outside this country can strike down the decision of a British court. That, as I said has sod all to do with the EU. It is the ECHR that we need to ditch.


Which article(s) do you have an issue with?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> 2008 - Johnston: 43%, Livingstone: 37%
> 2012 - Johnston: 44%, Livingstone: 40%
> 
> And it came down to second round too. Hardly thumping victory stuff.


Fucking donut tories.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

Coming from a guy that's repeatedly called the SNP Nazis. Maybe you want to rethink this one.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

andysays said:


> As a Londoner, can I point out here that not all of us voted for him, in fact without checking the figures I'll bet you that a majority of those eligible to vote for him didn't, and that I don't feel in the least insulted by VP's* comparison of Johnson to a freshly-hatched pile of pig-turd,
> 
> * VP himself being another Londoner who didn't vote for Johnson, of course



Well, you say that the majority of those eligible didn't vote for him. I should imagine that that is correct. There is scarcely, if any, politician of any stripe that takes a majority of the votes.

Are you saying then, that if those opposed to Boris hadn't been so lazy, and had actually turned up to vote, things would have been different. Well, they didn't, either through indolence, apathy or a satisfaction with the status quo. Who knows? 

It comes down again to living in the Urban bubble, and believing your own bullshit to mirror popular opinion, it doesn't. It may surprise you to know that the sacred cows of Urban are of zero interest to the vast majority of people.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 22, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Yes I'm struggling to divine Boris's motivation.  How does going with leave further his agenda exactly.



Simple. He knows he's more likely to survive supporting a losing leave campaign than a losing stay campaign. He also knows he'd be a minor figure in the stay campaign, but could easily become an unofficial figurehead for the leave campaign. He's playing percentages. I doubt he even expects his side to win, it's all just brand managment for his project to become PM, which is the only thing he cares about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It is unconscionable that any court outside this country can strike down the decision of a British court. That, as I said has sod all to do with the EU. It is the ECHR that we need to ditch.



The panjandrums of this union (the UK) entered into a contractual arrangement that explicitly allowed this of their own free will, way back at Maastricht. It was always well-understood across the party-political spectrum that signing up for a packet of measures that would lead to incorporating the ECHR would have the effect that you loathe. If you feel this disgusted by one particular part of that arrangement, you should have been doing something about it since Maastricht. I'm betting you've done very little except sound off about it, in the last 25+ years.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Can he actually do this though?  If he gets ousted and a new prime minister comes in, what's to stop him or her doing as they see fit?



He is also a, you know, liar


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> 2008 - Johnston: 43%, Livingstone: 37%
> 2012 - Johnston: 44%, Livingstone: 40%
> 
> And it came down to second round too. Hardly thumping victory stuff.



No, not the greatest of victories, certainly. A win though. (I do note the smaller margin in the second win. At that rate Livingston would have beeen mayor in a decade or two.) 

Do you have the actual numbers?

Hang on a moment, surely you don't support Livingston?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Rather an insult to the Londoners, who have elected him twice, and were he standing again, very likely for a third time.



Shows how bereft of quality the electoral process is, when a no-mark with good PR can become Mayor of London pretty much based on a pre-election tidal wave of publicity from the right-wing press.
It's not an insult to Londoners (although many more of us didn't vote for Johnson, than did), at all.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Hang on a moment, surely you don't support Livingston?



Is he another NAZI?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato's enemies - doctors, the SNP, Labour


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> In your opinion, which is not the opinion of the majority of Londoners.



He wasn't elected by a "majority of Londoners", you tedious, pensionable reactionary. He was elected by a majority of those who voted. That does not, _ipso facto_, translate to "a majority of Londoners".


----------



## andysays (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Well, you say that the majority of those eligible didn't vote for him. I should imagine that that is correct. There is scarcely, if any, politician of any stripe that takes a majority of the votes.
> 
> Are you saying then, that if those opposed to Boris hadn't been so lazy, and had actually turned up to vote, things would have been different. Well, they didn't, either through indolence, apathy or a satisfaction with the status quo. Who knows?
> 
> It comes down again to living in the Urban bubble, and believing your own bullshit to mirror popular opinion, it doesn't. It may surprise you to know that the sacred cows of Urban are of zero interest to the vast majority of people.



No, I'm not saying anything of the sort.

What I will say is that Boris Johnson's influence is based primarily on his celebrity status and media profile, and the fact that he's been (fairly narrowly) elected Mayor of London twice doesn't make him the sort of serious or genuinely influential politician you seem to think it does. 

Plenty of non-Urban Londoners I know share my opinion of him, and his decision to support Leave will make fuck all difference to them either way.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Hang on a moment, surely you don't support Livingston?



To be Mayor of London over Boris? Despite Livington's faults, yeah, any day. Livingston did a fucking good job I thought as Mayor - better imo than Boris has.

(and given that you continue to refer to the SNP as Nazi's, I'm not really sure I should worry too much about your judgement either way)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It is unconscionable that any court outside this country can strike down the decision of a British court.



It's no different to the supreme court overturning a crown court decision, unless you're a xenophobe. The only thing which should matter is a fair and just decision being made, not who makes it. But that would require taking each case on its merits rather than making grand sweeping statements about Johnny Foreigner interfering in Proper British Justice.

e2a: I doubt it's coincidence that so many of the cases that have right wingers up in arms about the supposed tyranny of human rights are those which involve the rights of foreign nationals.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It comes down again to living in the Urban bubble, and believing your own bullshit to mirror popular opinion, it doesn't. It may surprise you to know that the sacred cows of Urban are of zero interest to the vast majority of people.


Scottish Nazi Party -> over 50% of the vote


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Sasaferrato's enemies - doctors, the SNP, Labour


Your name too will be on the list!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Sorry, given the hugely skewed demographic on here, I can't help but chuckle about the comments regarding Boris. It so far from reality that it is almost hallucinogenic.
> 
> Go away from Urban and ask people's opinion of Boris, then have a reality check.
> 
> ...



Have you read any of Boris's books? His fiction makes Dick Francis look like a master of imaginative prose. His attempts at autobiography invariably get torn to pieces as fiction by his biographers. His political writings are poorer and even less analytic than Thatcher's.

I don't pretend to be a politician, but I know plenty of former and present councillors (of all parties), and a couple of former MPs, and they all worked and work a lot harder than that money-grabbing, sexually-incontinent egotist. He's a show-boater and a self-publicist whom London would be well shot of.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The panjandrums of this union (the UK) entered into a contractual arrangement that explicitly allowed this of their own free will, way back at Maastricht. It was always well-understood across the party-political spectrum that signing up for a packet of measures that would lead to incorporating the ECHR would have the effect that you loathe. If you feel this disgusted by one particular part of that arrangement, you should have been doing something about it since Maastricht. I'm betting you've done very little except sound off about it, in the last 25+ years.



Not a great deal you can do about it. You need a majority of the elected politicians to pass legislation, and that isn't going to happen any time soon.

It's a democracy. You don't like some of the things your government does, but unless you have majority support, it isn't going to change. The fact that a hell of a lot of the population doesn't know the difference between the ECHR and the European Court of Justice doesn't help either. I heard a muppet on the TV just a few moments ago, citing the ECHR as the reason he wants the UK to leave the EU.

I do not like the EU one little bit, however, if we leave, I really don't see a lot changing. If you want to trade in the EU, you have to demonstrate that you meet their requirements, which is the same shit, but without even the whisper of a voice we have now. I also don't think that trading with EU post exit, would be quite as cosy an arrangement as the 'Out' campaign are peddling. There would be nothing to stop the EU slapping whopping iomport levies on our goods and services. I doubt if the City would do well either, it could easily be replaced with Paris and Frankfurt. If it became more expensive to trade in London, the money would leave.

There is also the point that practically fuck all of British industry (such as it is) is British owned. Without unfettered access to the EU markets, how long would Nissan or Honda, for example, stay here?

I could kill Cameron for this*. He had no need to promise a referendum. We are now headed hell-wards on the proverbial handcart.

*Metaphorically.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Which article(s) do you have an issue with?


Well Sasaferrato ?
Anything to say, or was it your usual tory bullshit?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Which article(s) do you have an issue with?



The whole thing, probably, as I doubt he's actually read the Charter.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Have you read any of Boris's books? His fiction makes Dick Francis look like a master of imaginative prose. His attempts at autobiography invariably get torn to pieces as fiction by his biographers. His political writings are poorer and even less analytic than Thatcher's.
> 
> I don't pretend to be a politician, but I know plenty of former and present councillors (of all parties), and a couple of former MPs, and they all worked and work a lot harder than that money-grabbing, sexually-incontinent egotist. He's a show-boater and a self-publicist whom London would be well shot of.



You really love him, deep down?

(I have this vision of you physically foaming at the mouth.  You feel about Boris what I feel about the SNSP.)


----------



## youngian (Feb 22, 2016)

andysays said:


> No, I'm not saying anything of the sort.
> 
> What I will say is that Boris Johnson's influence is based primarily on his celebrity status and media profile, and the fact that he's been (fairly narrowly) elected Mayor of London twice doesn't make him the sort of serious or genuinely influential politician you seem to think it does.
> 
> Plenty of non-Urban Londoners I know share my opinion of him, and his decision to support Leave will make fuck all difference to them either way.



Even the penny is dropping among Tories that Johnson is a self-serving mediocre narcissist. 



> Quentin Letts of the _Mail _put it well when he said of Johnson.
> 
> The Commons sees through you in a way that other institutions don’t. It could see through the accent, and the fact that he was trying to ventilate false anxieties about matters in which he wasn’t really very interested. The reaction was quite often silence. You see, Boris isn’t angry. You’ve got to be angry: you’ve got to feel things as an MP, but there is no soul, no church in him. No belief. Most people don’t just go into politics out of vanity, but maybe he has.
> Boris Johnson: Everything about you is phoney | Coffee House


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The whole thing, probably, as I doubt he's actually read the Charter.


Wanting out of the council of Europe places him well to the end of the swivel-eyed spectrum.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Well Sasaferrato ?
> Anything to say, or was it your usual tory bullshit?



It all you Marxist cunt.

Stop being childish. There is no need for 'ad hom', apart from which, you are wrong, I am neither a member, or supporter, of the Conservative party. I was, until Cameron/Clegg came along. The welfare reforms in particular, and the absolutely dishonest way that they are being applied is nauseating.

I will not support the Conservative party again until this current lot are gone, and as they are all younger than me, it will be never.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It all you Marxist cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It all you Marxist cunt.


Punctuation.


----------



## andysays (Feb 22, 2016)




----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Rather an insult to the Londoners, who have elected him twice, and were he standing again, very likely for a third time.


Voting for Boris was an insult to London, so if one of my city-kin did so they are fully deserving of insulting.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


>


Sass never resorts to abuse you know!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The whole thing, probably, as I doubt he's actually read the Charter.



I have. I'm not in the habit of opposing things I haven't read.

The Charter chapters themselves are one thing, the judges interpretation is something else. Some of the judgements have been absolutely perverse. 

Were it possible, I would ditch the court, but keep the Charter, but enforced by our Supreme Court.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I have. I'm not in the habit of opposing things I haven't read.
> 
> The Charter chapters themselves are one thing, the judges interpretation is something else. Some of the judgements have been absolutely perverse.
> 
> Were it possible, I would ditch the court, but keep the Charter, but enforced by our Supreme Court.


Half an hour ago you said you wanted to ditch the Convention; all of it.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Voting for Boris was an insult to London, so if one of my city-kin did so they are fully deserving of insulting.



Uh huh, however, perhaps not with the most thumping of margins, Boris won. 

One of the reasons I detest the far left is their inability to combine under one banner, write a hymn sheet and sing from it.

Many of the ideas of the 'far left' are far from loony. An emphasis on building affordable housing, proper payment in employment, a real effort against the tax dodgers amongst other things. Why can't the FL combine? Genuine question. Surely you can see that 1 x 1000 is more effective that 10 x 50? Greater mass, pooled resources...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> To be Mayor of London over Boris? Despite Livington's faults, yeah, any day. Livingston did a fucking good job I thought as Mayor - better imo than Boris has.



A case in point regarding Livingstone doing a good job: Prior to the 2008 Mayoral election, he'd set aside a fairly large sum of money for feasibility studies regarding making London Underground and London Overground more accessible to those of us who don't have perfect health; use wheelchairs or have small children in buggies. Boris axed it and, despite strong and consistent lobbying, has done the sum of fuck-all, given that the bus companies had already signed up to all new stock being of the accessible variety.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Half an hour ago you said you wanted to ditch the Convention; all of it.



Irony passes like a flighting grouse...


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Watching Boris blustering and bumbling his way through Mayor's Question Time is just fucking embarrassing.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> A case in point regarding Livingstone doing a good job: Prior to the 2008 Mayoral election, he'd set aside a fairly large sum of money for feasibility studies regarding making London Underground and London Overground more accessible to those of us who don't have perfect health; use wheelchairs or have small children in buggies. Boris axed it and, despite strong and consistent lobbying, has done the sum of fuck-all, given that the bus companies had already signed up to all new stock being of the accessible variety.



It couldn't possibly be that (now, I'm not a Londoner, I did live in Woolwich for 18 months, so don't bite my head off if I'm wrong.) with buses going everywhere the tube did, the money was better spent elsewhere? There was a lot of money spent trying to stop cyclists getting killed IRRC.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 22, 2016)

I find the EU a massive snorebore, and most Tories/Kippers who are really, really fascinated (aka obsessed) with it essentially demented. Am I a bad person? 

My instinct is to want to remain for the above reasons  , but I am aware that there's plenty of TU/left/anti-TTIP arguments for an 'out' vote too. Trouble to me though, who would it be who would _really_ benefit from a Leave majority? Not at all sure it would stop TTIP for instance.


I suppose I should take some interest and research more ... but get stuck into all this for the next four months?  

Two questions from me for the time being :

1.  How much will the Tories' and UKIP's ultra-obsession with the whole thing put how many people off voting no?
2.  How influential is Boris *really?* I tend to suspect he isn't nearly as popular with non-Tories, nor even with a lot of apoliticals, as he's _presented_ as being. Am I wrong?

Apols for getting into this thread so late. No doubt I've missed lots of stuff to answer my questions, but see sentence one at the top.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Watching Boris blustering and bumbling his way through Mayor's Question Time is just fucking embarrassing.



It isn't on You Tube is it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Is he another NAZI?



According to Sass, he's an anti-Semite.
The fact that most non-Establishment Jews I know (that's *most* of the Jews I know!) thought while Livingstone's "concentration camp guard" comment was out of order, it very obviously *wasn't* anti-Semitic, but rather a comment on the mindless "I was only doing my job" mentality of a journalist who was hounding him.
Sass, a practicing Christian child of a Jew, insists he knows better than everyone else, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Scottish Nazi Party -> over 50% of the vote



If they were a true Nazi Party,they'd have got 33-34%, damn them!


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It isn't on You Tube is it?



You can usually catch it on Parliament channel.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Uh huh, however, perhaps not with the most thumping of margins, Boris won.
> 
> One of the reasons I detest the far left is their inability to combine under one banner, write a hymn sheet and sing from it.
> 
> Many of the ideas of the 'far left' are far from loony. An emphasis on building affordable housing, proper payment in employment, a real effort against the tax dodgers amongst other things. Why can't the FL combine? Genuine question. Surely you can see that 1 x 1000 is more effective that 10 x 50? Greater mass, pooled resources...


Pfft, damned if I know! Ill-informed pub theory: one of the reasons is the left's actions are generally based on qualitative and nebulous concepts, 'principles' that shall not bend, whereas the right is more quantitative and far more willing to hold their nose and join forces if they think it'll .

The left care about how they win, the right just care that they win. Which is why I, from the left, wouldn't see it as cause for detestation, more despair. "Uniting under one banner" is only of interest if all you care about is winning - that's not the only/primary concern of many.

Also, I think the right is an easier and more seductive sell - "work hard and you can achieve anything!".

Of course, left/right is a load of reductionist old pony anyway, but I did say this was a pub theory


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Irony passes like a flighting grouse...


Sometimes it's hard for a simple _Marxist cunt _to discern irony from ill-informed, contradictory tory bullshit.
My bad.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 22, 2016)

One thing to remember about Boris and London, Sasaferrato , is that London was pretty much the only place where there was a widespread pro-Labour/anti-Tory swing in the GE last year. Not just the inner city areas either. Not all from the Lib Dems either.

I don't know, but Boris's popularity, such as it was (in London specifically anyway),  may have declined a fair bit more recently.


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> 1.  How much will the Tories' and UKIP's ultra-obsession with the whole thing put how many people off voting no?


you know that the tories are voting 'yes' don't you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Not a great deal you can do about it. You need a majority of the elected politicians to pass legislation, and that isn't going to happen any time soon.
> 
> It's a democracy. You don't like some of the things your government does, but unless you have majority support, it isn't going to change. The fact that a hell of a lot of the population doesn't know the difference between the ECHR and the European Court of Justice doesn't help either. I heard a muppet on the TV just a few moments ago, citing the ECHR as the reason he wants the UK to leave the EU.
> 
> ...



Fuck metaphor.
Interestingly, you insist that "we're a democracy", yet every comment and observation you make about the state says "no we're not".
You see, in a real democracy, we'd actually have legislated methods *beyond* elections through which to curb our politicians of their fondness for taking our freedoms and lining their own pockets. Currently we have no such methods.
We live in a pseudo-democracy, plain and simple. The sooner people acknowledge this, and agitate against it, the sooner metaphor can become reality, and Parliament can be given a more noble employment - perhaps as a piggery.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 22, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> I find the EU a massive snorebore, and most Tories/Kippers who are really, really fascinated (aka obsessed) with it essentially demented. Am I a bad person?
> 
> My instinct is to want to remain for the above reasons  , but I am aware that there's plenty of TU/left/anti-TTIP arguments for an 'out' vote too. Trouble to me though, who would it be who would _really_ benefit from a Leave majority? Not at all sure it would stop TTIP for instance.
> 
> ...




I think you are right about Boris, he'll be a 'nine days wonder', then submerge.

It isn't just Tories/UKIP who are getting aerated about this. Apoliticals are becoming involved too. Both In and Out camps have political bedfellows, from which the stuff of madness is made. Consider this; Sturgeon, Cameron and Hilary Benn, all on the same side.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> You really love him, deep down?
> 
> (I have this vision of you physically foaming at the mouth.  You feel about Boris what I feel about the SNSP.)



I dislike laziness. Boris's worked exemplifies laziness. His one skill is getting other people to do the heavy lifting for him. He doesn't make me foam at the mouth. He makes me shake my head sorrowfully at how easily-gulled some people are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> I have. I'm not in the habit of opposing things I haven't read.
> 
> The Charter chapters themselves are one thing, the judges interpretation is something else. Some of the judgements have been absolutely perverse.
> 
> Were it possible, I would ditch the court, but keep the Charter, but enforced by our Supreme Court.



That's what already happens unless the interpretation given by our court eludes all established precedent.


----------



## danny la rouge (Feb 22, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Sasaferrato's enemies - doctors, the SNP, Labour


What have I missed? Did he leave the Labour Party now? 

Hey, Sasaferrato, have you left Labour? You're only 30 odd years behind me. Keep going. You'll be an anarchist before long.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 22, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> Pfft, damned if I know! Ill-informed pub theory: one of the reasons is the left's actions are generally based on qualitative and nebulous concepts, 'principles' that shall not bend, whereas the right is more quantitative and far more willing to hold their nose and join forces if they think it'll .
> 
> The left care about how they win, the right just care that they win. Which is why I, from the left, wouldn't see it as cause for detestation, more despair. "Uniting under one banner" is only of interest if all you care about is winning - that's not the only/primary concern of many.


Yes absolute unity on the right currently. We aren't in a middle of an event where significant divisions in the major right-wing party are emerging. (Leaving aside for the moment the long history of infighting in the far right).


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 22, 2016)

Latest scores on the doors.

Number of Conservative MPs backing 'Brexit' reaches 120



			
				itv said:
			
		

> 131 Conservative MPs support remaining in the EU
> 120 have said they will back "Brexit"
> 79 are still undeclared


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2016)

n


stethoscope said:


> Latest scores on the doors.
> 
> Number of Conservative MPs backing 'Brexit' reaches 120


In/Out - Google Sheets


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 22, 2016)

killer b said:


> you know that the tories are voting 'yes' don't you?




I lot of them want to vote 'Leave' -- I should have phrased that question much better though (was in pre-X Files rush). I meant how offputting would all the splits and obsessiveness be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> It couldn't possibly be that (now, I'm not a Londoner, I did live in Woolwich for 18 months, so don't bite my head off if I'm wrong.) with buses going everywhere the tube did, the money was better spent elsewhere? There was a lot of money spent trying to stop cyclists getting killed IRRC.



Nope, the money wasn't "better spent elsewhere", not by TfL. Buses *don't* "go everywhere the tube did", and changing buses is a lot more problematic in many cases than changing platforms at an accessible station. There's some crazy figure going round(and has been going round since 2008) that it'd cost £50 million to put a single lift in a single tube station, more on the deep lines. Thing is, most of the deep lines have escalator service, plus "emergency" lifts, so you're not really having to consider doing much there.
Apparently, the method that Berlin successfully used (using staged lifts) on their deeper stations costs about 2 million Euros per station, so I'm inclined to believe that the only issue in play is a lack of political will, not a lack of money or need .


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 23, 2016)

OK then, just a minor tweak to my first question from yesterday :



William of Walworth said:


> 1.  How much will the Tories' and UKIP's ultra-obsession with the whole thing put how many people off voting *at all?*



There's got to be a lot of people for whom the prospect of four months  'banging on about Europe'  is duller than ditchwater. And I can't say I blame them much.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> As far as I can see the only people who benefit from EU membership are the bosses and the landlords of this world.  I know which way I'm voting and nothing in this 'deal' will persuade me otherwise.
> 
> And as for taking child benefit and WTC off families? The only people that ultimately hurts are the children. And it creates second class citizens, which, historically, has *never* ended well.


Well I certainly have benefitted from the EU over the last 30 years or so and I've witnessed and experienced the changes that have made me feel more and more European every year.


----------



## weltweit (Feb 23, 2016)

Fuchs66 said:


> Well I certainly have benefitted from the EU over the last 30 years or so and I've witnessed and experienced the changes that have made me feel more and more European every year.


I agree, I spent a very nice time working in Germany and would certainly consider working in France or Germany or Spain in the future, but this might be less likely if the UK left the EU. And what about all those Brits who are already living on the continent, and all the continentals who are currently living and working in the UK?


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 23, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I agree, I spent a very nice time working in Germany and would certainly consider working in France or Germany or Spain in the future, but this might be less likely if the UK left the EU. And what about all those Brits who are already living on the continent, and all the continentals who are currently living and working in the UK?


Yep I originally settled in Germany in 1992 when things weren't quite so easy and have watched the whole experience of living in other EU countries become so much easier and "normal". I'm now based in the Netherlands, own a house in Bulgaria, my girlfriend is Latvian (where I spend a lot of time too). I have taken full advantage of the freedom of movement and have found it to be a very good thing, to lose it would be crap. The main reason, apart from my personal situation, that I want the UK to remain in the EU is I have yet to see a realistic alternative being offered by the Leave group, apart from lots of rhetoric, there is nothing of substance visible.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

But for those of us who have no desire to trek halfway across Europe for work and want a job and a home near where we grew up it's all downside.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> But for those of us who have no desire to trek halfway across Europe for work and want a job and a home near where we grew up it's all downside.


And you think that would change if we left the EU? I personally doubt it, I think most of the UK's problems are caused in London rather than Brussels!


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

Fuchs66 said:


> And you think that would change if we left the EU? I personally doubt it,


To be honest I'm pessimistic about whether it will change even in the event of Brexit but I know nothing will change while we stay in the EU

This emergency brake isn't worth a damn and the only people who will lose out are children.


----------



## weltweit (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> But for those of us who have no desire to trek halfway across Europe for work and want a job and a home near where we grew up it's all downside.


We have to get away from this incorrect use of the word "Europe". Britain is a European country, if you live in Britain you live in Europe and that will not change even if Britain exits the EU. It is membership of the EU that is up for debate. If you are unable to use the word Europe correctly then think of the continent. Britain is not on the continent, so it is ok to talk about people living on the continent. But people living in Huddersfield are living in Europe!


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> To be honest I'm pessimistic about whether it will change even in the event of Brexit but I know nothing will change while we stay in the EU.


The main point being where you lay the blame for your problems. You seem to indicate that you believe that Brussels is to blame I disagree and place the blame in London. I agree there will probably be changes after a "Brexit", however I don't think they will be for the better.
As far as restrictions on benefits are concerned I'm a bit split on this, when I originally settled in Germany in 92 I had to live, work AND pay taxes there for 5 years before I was entitled to the majority of benefits.I didn't find it a particularly bad thing, more a motivator to get my arse into gear!


----------



## kabbes (Feb 23, 2016)

weltweit said:


> We have to get away from this incorrect use of the word "Europe". Britain is a European country, if you live in Britain you live in Europe and that will not change even if Britain exits the EU. It is membership of the EU that is up for debate. If you are unable to use the word Europe correctly then think of the continent. Britain is not on the continent, so it is ok to talk about people living on the continent. But people living in Huddersfield are living in Europe!


It really doesn't matter.  Everybody understands what people mean when they talk about things "in Europe".  So the meaning is being communicated, which is the job of the language.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> But for those of us who have no desire to trek halfway across Europe for work and want a job and a home near where we grew up it's all downside.


As it is with anything if you choose to look at it that way. If you don't have any desire but to live self-sufficiently gazing at your own navel in a shack in the woods, then public services and taxation are all downside. I don't suppose that's the ideal set of lines you'd draw up though.


----------



## andysays (Feb 23, 2016)

Fuchs66 said:


> Well I certainly have benefitted from the EU over the last 30 years or so and I've witnessed and experienced the changes that have made me feel more and more European every year.



The question is surely not if you personally or we collectively have benefited from being in the EU for the last 30 years, it's if you/we will continue to benefit from being in it in the future. Maybe you think you personally will, but many of us think that, however much we may have benefited in the past, we collectively won't benefit by remaining in, given what the EU has become and is becoming.

Although I agree that there is some uncertainty about exactly what might happen if we do leave, I suggest that at least some of the panic about Brits currently working in other EU countries being forcibly repatriated, or not being able to holiday in continental Europe as they do now are unfounded.

We, either as individuals or collectively, won't suddenly become less European simply by virtue of choosing to leave the EU, and suggestions that we will are little more than scare-mongering.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

What's not going to be useful for the scottish w/c is the tying of independence into being pro-neo-liberal. Has anyone seen any counter-stuff to this bosses nonsense?


----------



## extra dry (Feb 23, 2016)

Jus-Rol pastry factory in Berwick to close with 265 jobs lost 

Jobs already moving to europe. Uk wages too high for some companies. 

  Staying in makes moving jobs overseas to lower wage areas much easier.

   I was told the packing/processing jobs are being relocated to Greece, pay a uk worker  £9.20 per hour in uk compaired to £2.20 an hour in Greece.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Feb 23, 2016)

extra dry said:


> £2.20 an hour in Greece.


That's obscene!


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> That's obscene!


How is this possible for a member state of the EU, which protects workers rights so assiduously?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Jus-Rol pastry factory in Berwick to close with 265 jobs lost
> 
> Jobs already moving to europe. Uk wages too high for some companies.
> 
> ...



Already done and dusted if you will excuse the pun, a mate who lives in Berwick told me about this last month. Northern powerhouse? They are having a laugh!


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 23, 2016)

Lord Camomile said:


> That's obscene!


thats what they tried to vote their way out of. Being europes fucking workhouse. Obscene is the word.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> thats what they tried to vote their way out of. Being europes fucking workhouse.


Nonsense - they pay albanians £2 20 an hour to do the work  whilst they laze around on the beach - and they don't pay any tax on it either.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 23, 2016)

What is sickening is that Jus-Rol and the Betty Crocker ranges primary market is here in the UK.
The MP for Berwick Anne Marie Trevelyan (con) wrote to all the major supermarkets last December, asking for their sales figures for the Jus-rol products so she could build a case against closure, citing quality and location issues as good reason for General Mills to reconsider the movement to it's site in Greece.
We can see the response by the continuation of the shutting down process.
General Mills also produce Pilsbury dough and Haagen-Dazs.

This process has been ongoing since September last year.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> 2.  How influential is Boris *really?* I tend to suspect he isn't nearly as popular with non-Tories, nor even with a lot of apoliticals, as he's _presented_ as being. Am I wrong?



I suspect he may be relatively popular with neutrals and apoliticals in London, which is where all the newspapers live, hence the papers talking him up all the time. Yesterday's Guardian had a particularly nauseating line about him being 'regularly mobbed in the street' by his adoring public, and I doubt they're talking about the same kind of mob he'd encounter if he took a stroll through my neck of the woods.

I reckon nationwide most people think he's a bad joke. I doubt you'd find three people in Scotland who'd piss on him if he was on fire.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 23, 2016)

Fuchs66 said:


> Yep I originally settled in Germany in 1992 when things weren't quite so easy and have watched the whole experience of living in other EU countries become so much easier and "normal". I'm now based in the Netherlands, own a house in Bulgaria, my girlfriend is Latvian (where I spend a lot of time too). I have taken full advantage of the freedom of movement and have found it to be a very good thing, to lose it would be crap. The main reason, apart from my personal situation, that I want the UK to remain in the EU is I have yet to see a realistic alternative being offered by the Leave group, apart from lots of rhetoric, there is nothing of substance visible.



There is nothing being offered by the 'Leave' group, bar a great deal of uncertainty. One thing I am sure of though, if I were in a partnership, and my partner fucked me around, then left, I certainly wouldn't be doing them any favours in the future.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 23, 2016)

andysays said:


> The question is surely not if you personally or we collectively have benefited from being in the EU for the last 30 years, it's if you/we will continue to benefit from being in it in the future. Maybe you think you personally will, but many of us think that, however much we may have benefited in the past, we collectively won't benefit by remaining in, given what the EU has become and is becoming.
> 
> Although I agree that there is some uncertainty about exactly what might happen if we do leave, I suggest that at least some of the panic about Brits currently working in other EU countries being forcibly repatriated, or not being able to holiday in continental Europe as they do now are unfounded.
> 
> We, either as individuals or collectively, won't suddenly become less European simply by virtue of choosing to leave the EU, and suggestions that we will are little more than scare-mongering.



Really? What concrete evidence do you have for that view?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 23, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I suspect he may be relatively popular with neutrals and apoliticals in London, which is where all the newspapers live, hence the papers talking him up all the time. Yesterday's Guardian had a particularly nauseating line about him being 'regularly mobbed in the street' by his adoring public, and I doubt they're talking about the same kind of mob he'd encounter if he took a stroll through my neck of the woods.
> 
> I reckon nationwide most people think he's a bad joke. I doubt you'd find three people in Scotland who'd piss on him if he was on fire.



Depends on which part of Scotland I suppose.


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I suspect he may be relatively popular with neutrals and apoliticals in London, which is where all the newspapers live, hence the papers talking him up all the time. Yesterday's Guardian had a particularly nauseating line about him being 'regularly mobbed in the street' by his adoring public, and I doubt they're talking about the same kind of mob he'd encounter if he took a stroll through my neck of the woods.
> 
> I reckon nationwide most people think he's a bad joke. I doubt you'd find three people in Scotland who'd piss on him if he was on fire.


According to national opinion polls conducted a couple of years ago, he's the most popular politician in the country. Not sure how that breaks down by region though.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

mauvais said:


> As it is with anything if you choose to look at it that way. If you don't have any desire but to live self-sufficiently gazing at your own navel in a shack in the woods, then public services and taxation are all downside. I don't suppose that's the ideal set of lines you'd draw up though.



Of course not. But I also live very much in the real world. Can I introduce the following clip Inside Out East Midlands, 22/02/2016
Please give it a try- you only need to watch the first ten minutes of that. I actually come from the southern half of Derbyshire, but Shirebrook very similar area to where I come from, and yes, my accent is pretty much like that as well 

 Something like Sports Direct should have been a boon to a post mining town like Shirebrook, but much of the benefit has gone to incoming workers. Because there are so many potential EU workers, the workforce gets treated like shit and no one gains except the fat cats.  And there is real pressure on housing and services. 

This is very typical of why I'm voting 'leave'. People from the capital, jetsetters who work in Paris or Rome or Berlin, feel free to look down on me. Call me narrow minded. Call me a nationalist if you must. Call me pretty much anything apart from racist, which I tend to take exception to. But I am voting 'leave' because I want to control economic migration to the UK, and, following the pathetic offers from re-negoitation, my mind is made up.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Something like Sports Direct should have been a boon to a post mining town like Shirebrook, but much of the benefit has gone to incoming workers. Because there are so many potential EU workers, the workforce gets treated like shit and no one gains except the fat cats.  And there is real pressure on housing and services.


Haven't finished watching all of your clip yet - but why the EU?

Why not the domestic government for failing to build houses and services, failing to block the worst of cheap labour & one-sided contracts, failing to regenerate whole areas after the closure of industry? Why not Sports Direct for that matter, which exploits this amongst its many other sharp and possibly illegal practices?

I'm not even going to say that immigration hasn't hurt these communities, but why of all the available factors is the EU bogeyman looming largest in your mind?

And what would be different were it not for the EU? Immigration, maybe, although not a given by any means since the government's interests align quite well with those interested in cheap labour. But not the rest.

Plus apparently the EU gave €270m to the East Midlands in regional development whilst the domestic government does what? Small fry, I know.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

Good post/points..



mauvais said:


> Haven't finished watching all of your clip yet - but why the EU?
> 
> Why not the domestic government for failing to build houses and services, failing to block the worst of cheap labour & one-sided contracts, failing to regenerate whole areas after the closure of industry? Why not Sports Direct for that matter, which exploits this amongst its many other sharp and possibly illegal practices?



Oh I do blame all those people/ things too. But this is an EU referendum, and so it is the EU I'm considering here.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 23, 2016)

Classic UKIP position innit. Blame immigration and the EU, but not neo-liberalism and right-wing UK governments. Like it's all the former's fault, and not the latter.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Classic UKIP position innit. Blame immigration and the EU, but not neo-liberalism and right-wing UK governments. Like it's all the former's fault, and not the latter.



The EU *is* neo-liberalism, surely. I think it is fairly right wing too.

I do blame the UK government for not setting sensible quotas on economic migrants- but then the EU wouldn't allow that. Maybe the government should have played hardball back in 2004, but that is all water under the bridge now.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The EU *is* neo-liberalism, surely. I think it is fairly right wing too.
> 
> I do blame the UK government for not setting sensible quotas on economic migrants- but then the EU wouldn't allow that. Maybe the government should have played hardball back in 2004, but that is all water under the bridge now.


Ha ha. Cunt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 23, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Depends on which part of Scotland I suppose.



Every part except your house.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> The EU *is* neo-liberalism, surely. I think it is fairly right wing too.
> 
> I do blame the UK government for not setting sensible quotas on economic migrants- but then the EU wouldn't allow that. Maybe the government should have played hardball back in 2004, but that is all water under the bridge now.



It was always water under the bridge. Globalised labour markets are a permanent feature of modern capitalism, not just part of being in the EU.

(For instance, the percentage of the population who are foreign-born in the UK is lower than several non-EU countries - Switzerland 28.9%, Norway 13.8%)


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I do blame the UK government for not setting sensible quotas on economic migrants- but then *the EU wouldn't allow that*. Maybe the government should have played hardball back in 2004, but that is all water under the bridge now.


EU members France/Germany/Italy had no difficulty restricting Eastern European immigration in 2004. (The restrictions remained in place until 2011.) The reason so many Poles and other Eastern Europeans came to Britain was because _the British government _allowed them to come. London not Brussels.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> I
> (For instance, the percentage of the population who are foreign-born in the UK is lower than several non-EU countries - Switzerland 28.9%, Norway 13.8%)



That is a high figure for Switzerland. I wonder how many of those are from immediately neighbouring countries and how many are from further afield.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> That is a high figure for Switzerland. I wonder how many of those are from immediately neighbouring countries and how many are from further afield.


Why would you seek to make that distinction? We both know why.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> That is a high figure for Switzerland. I wonder how many of those are from immediately neighbouring countries and how many are from further afield.


But an immigrant is an immigrant, right?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why would you see to make that distinction? We both know why.



I know this might surprise you, Butchers, but I actually studied human and population geography at uni and I find these things interesting.




			
				Lo Siento said:
			
		

> But an immigrant is an immigrant, right?



Yes and no. 

A German family moving from one side of a mountain to another and hence into German speaking Switzerland is totally different to one coming there from Spain or Greece. Just as a family leaving Derry to live in the Donegal countryside is different to a family coming there from Turkey or North Africa., even though the statistics would count all four families as 'immigrants'


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> A German family moving from one side of a mountain to another and hence into German speaking Switzerland is totally different to one coming there from Spain or Greece. Just as a family leaving Derry to live in the Donegal countryside is different to a family coming there from Turkey or North Africa., even though the statistics would count all four families as 'immigrants'



Why? (Beyond the fact that all migrations are discrete events and therefore unique)


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> I know this might surprise you, Butchers, but I actually studied human and population geography at uni and I find these things interesting.



 A hidden joke about refugees drowning and a colour based dog-whistle. From a poster who thinks black people can't be british. Don't waste my time. Just be honest you massive racist cunt.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> Why? (Beyond the fact that all migrations are discrete events and therefore unique)



Assuming this is a serious question?

The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.

A family moving from Spain to Switzerland is going to experience moderate culture shock and considerable language shock. 

And a family moving from North Africa or the Middle East to Ireland (or Switzerland, or France, or Germany, or the UK) is going experience very considerable culture shock. Lets be honest, they will. All sorts of things, from the predominant religion, to standards of dress, to attitudes towards gay people and the status of women will be very different. All of that on top of any language barrier. 

That is why I was interested to know where Switzerland's immigrants came from


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> A hidden joke about refugees drowning and a colour based dog-whistle.



I've no idea what you are on about, unless it is some sort of reference to the fact that Switzerland is landlocked.

If you think I find refugees drowning funny, then I've nothing more to say to you.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Assuming this is a serious question?
> 
> The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.
> 
> ...


Yep yep yep


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Assuming this is a serious question?
> 
> The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.
> 
> ...


I see. And how would I go about measuring these things? Is there a way of quantifying the relative shock that my Francophone, Francophile, atheist Moroccan friend from urban Marrakech might feel moving to Western Europe as compared to a rural Suffolk lad moving to London?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 23, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> I see. And how would I go about measuring these things? Is there a way of quantifying the relative shock that my Francophone, Francophile, atheist Moroccan friend from urban Marrakech might feel moving to Western Europe as compared to a rural Suffolk lad moving to London?



You know very well there isn't.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 23, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> I see. And how would I go about measuring these things? Is there a way of quantifying the relative shock that my Francophone, Francophile, atheist Moroccan friend from urban Marrakech might feel moving to Western Europe as compared to a rural Suffolk lad moving to London?



I don't know but I think we should measure it in pastries.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 23, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> You know very well there isn't.


Really? Did they not teach "proving specious generalisations that you've pulled out of your arse" in your human and social geography class?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> Really? Did they not teach "proving specious generalisations that you've pulled out of your arse" in your human and social geography class?


Mate I was merely trying to point out that the 28 per cent figure for Switzerland might not be all it seems. 

No need to take the piss.


----------



## pocketscience (Feb 24, 2016)

Fuchs66 said:


> The main point being where you lay the blame for your problems. You seem to indicate that you believe that Brussels is to blame I disagree and place the blame in London. I agree there will probably be changes after a "Brexit", however I don't think they will be for the better.
> As far as restrictions on benefits are concerned I'm a bit split on this, when I originally settled in Germany in 92 I had to live, work AND pay taxes there for 5 years before I was entitled to the majority of benefits.I didn't find it a particularly bad thing, more a motivator to get my arse into gear!


Don't want to derail, but as I understand it 6months work was/is the German rule for full benefit entitlement. For those initial 6months after resetteling you can even transfer your benefits from your place of origin
You may be getting it mixed up with right to abode rule where 5 years work = permanent residency (unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis).
Either way, all very cool policies from the Eu that enable this.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 24, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Don't want to derail, but as I understand it 6months work was/is the German rule for full benefit entitlement. For those initial 6months after resetteling you can even transfer your benefits from your place of origin
> You may be getting it mixed up with right to abode rule where 5 years work = permanent residency (unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis).
> Either way, all very cool policies from the Eu that enable this.


Not in 1991 it wasn't, 5 years until you could get the same benefits as a German citizen. I did make full use of it after the time was up mind!
Aufenthaltserlaubnis also was befristet for a long time can't remember when exactly they changed it to unbefristet but it was a while.


----------



## pocketscience (Feb 24, 2016)

I was there at the same time and got mine in 6 months


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

1991 would have been before full freedom of movement rules came in of course.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 24, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> I was there at the same time and got mine in 6 months


Fuck knows how, I remember some very loud discussions in the Arbeitsamt when I found out that they refused to recognise my qualifications and they were banging on about the 5 years all the time. Was out in the sticks in Niedersachsen mind! 

I did get a nice college course paid for by the AA after the 5 years though so worked out OK in the end.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> 1991 would have been before full freedom of movement rules came in of course.


Yes I know!


----------



## pocketscience (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> 1991 would have been before full freedom of movement rules came in of course.


Freedom of movement has been enshrined in Eu policy since the treaty of Rome 1957


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Freedom of movement has been enshrined in Eu policy since the treaty of Rome 1957


Ok. Aiui it was only some point after 1992 it was actually introduced.


----------



## pocketscience (Feb 24, 2016)

Fuchs66 said:


> Fuck knows how, I remember some very loud discussions in the Arbeitsamt when I found out that they refused to recognise my qualifications and they were banging on about the 5 years all the time. Was out in the sticks in Niedersachsen mind!
> 
> I did get a nice college course paid for by the AA after the 5 years though so worked out OK in the end.


No worries, loud discussions with the AAmt are par for the course  East Berlin was definitely open to it but I wouldnt say it was easy going. Definitely not for the faint hearted....There usually are different regional interpretations of rulings. Bavaria's _Beamte_ are notorius for being difficult  toward foreigners


----------



## Fuchs66 (Feb 24, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> No worries, loud discussions with the AAmt are par for the course  East Berlin was definitely open to it but I wouldnt say it was easy going. Definitely not for the faint hearted....There usually are different regional interpretations of rulings. Bavaria's _Beamte_ are notorius for being difficult  toward foreigners


Probably right but like I said it worked out OK in the end so can't really chunter!


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Mate I was merely trying to point out that the 28 per cent figure for Switzerland might not be all it seems.
> 
> No need to take the piss.


I'm taking the piss because it's this end of the bullshit that's the most insidious.

You're building a conclusion on top of a pile of "common sense" assumptions, none of which bear any actual scrutiny and all of which ultimately lead to a predictable (and noxious) end station: some migrants count as part of "us" and therefore "aren't really immigrants" and some don't and are.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 24, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> There is nothing being offered by the 'Leave' group, bar a great deal of uncertainty.



One thing LEAVE does offer is the tiny possibility that our future may not be governed by wholly unaccountable, undemocratic neo-liberalists. Leave and we may well end up with that, stay and there is no choice but to end up like that.

And one more thing if we stay:




			
				Sasaferrato said:
			
		

> One thing I am sure of though, if I were in a partnership, and my partner fucked me around, then left, I certainly wouldn't be doing them any favours in the future.



If we don't vote to leave we're trapped in and these cunts will punish us hard for our insolence in ever questioning them.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

Lo Siento. said:


> I'm taking the piss because it's this end of the bullshit that's the most insidious.
> 
> Your building a conclusion on top of a pile of "common sense" assumptions, none of which bear any actual scrutiny.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Assuming this is a serious question?
> 
> The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.
> 
> ...


What has any of that got to do with your reason for being anti-immigration, which was supposedly local jobs for local people?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

Sorry I think the board upgrade earlier messed up my above post.


Lo Siento. said:


> I'm taking the piss because it's this end of the bullshit that's the most insidious.
> 
> You're building a conclusion on top of a pile of "common sense" assumptions, none of which bear any actual scrutiny



Sure, it's a bulletin board post, not peer reviewed academic research



> and all of which ultimately lead to a predictable (and noxious) end station: some migrants count as part of "us" and therefore "aren't really immigrants" and some don't and are.



I'm not saying that at all. I'm genuinely interested in Switzerland's seemingly very high figure of 28.9% of people born in another country, and suspect the proximity to other countries speaking the same languages might have something to do with it.

Of course some people cope well with a move thousands of miles overseas, whilst someone else might struggle with a move to the next town. But there is a difference in the level of culture shock between moving from southern Germany to Switzerland  and moving from the Middle East or North Africa to Switzerland. There just *is*, and to deny it is stupid.


----------



## gosub (Feb 24, 2016)

Swiss Population stats  (2014 as later are still provisional)

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/news/publikationen.Document.198989.pdf



In 2014, 1,998,459 foreign citizens lived in Switzerland (24.3% of the permanent resident population). Two-thirds came from a EU28 or EFTA country. This population registered an increase of 3.1% (+61,012 persons) compared to the previous year.


Permanent resident population by nationality
Nationality 1970 1990 20104 2014
Total1 1,084,903 1,127,109 1,766,277 1,998,459
Germany 118,289 84,485 263,271 298,027
France 55,864 51,729 95,643 116,896
Italy 583,850 381,493 287,130 306,414
Austria 44,734 29,123 37,013 40,291
Spain 121,239 116,987 64,126 79,610
Portugal 3,632 86,035 212,586 262,748
Serbien und Montenegro2 … … * *
Serbien3 … … 121,908 78,092
Montenegro … … 2,022 2,537
Kosovo … … 58,755 99,799
Croatia … … 33,507 29,940
Bosnia and Herzegovina … … 35,513 32,583
Macedonia … … 60,116 63,516
Ex-Yugoslavia2 24,971 141,397 * *
Turkey 12,215 64,899 71,835 70,051
Europe 1,030,157 1,036,760 1,504,943 1,698,241
Africa 5,113 20,291 71,527 86,705
America 18,419 29,149 74,511 78,977
Asia, Oceania 9,345 40,649 114,539 132,996


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

Thanks for those- something similar to what I would expect.


----------



## gosub (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Thanks for those- something similar to what I would expect.



Portuguese surprised me , and to a lesser extent the more Italian than French (but I suppose thats down to the bits of Switzerland I know)


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

gosub said:


> Portuguese surprised me , and to a lesser extent the more Italian than French (but I suppose thats down to the bits of Switzerland I know)



Yes, although the population of Italian nationals in Switzerland seems to be falling. In 1970 when the table starts Italy was much poorer than many other Western European countries, although the gap has closed considerably since.

There has been quite a lot of Portuguese emigration since the early 90s. Before the 2004 enlargement Portugal was one of the poorer of the EU countries. It still lags behind a bit.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 24, 2016)

gosub said:


> Portuguese surprised me



Their economy is shafted, like Ireland those with skills have fucked off to somewhere where they can earn a decent crust for them.


----------



## gosub (Feb 24, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Their economy is shafted, like Ireland those with skills have fucked off to somewhere where they can earn a decent crust for them.



i know that, and a lot have moved to Brazil (which being heavily into mining is also wobbling) Angola is also a destination of choice.   Interesting then that the  Greeks aren't even a blip on these stats


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

gosub said:


> i know that, and a lot have moved to Brazil (which being heavily into mining is also wobbling) Angola is also a destination of choice.



Ironic indeed. 


> Interesting then that the  Greeks aren't even a blip on these stats



Yeah. IIRC (and it was a long time ago) when freedom of movement was first brought in (long before Poland etc joined) the two countries expected to produce the most economic emigrants were Portugal and Greece.  The latter never really emerged to the same extent, although there were some of course.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Sorry I think the board upgrade earlier messed up my above post.
> 
> 
> Sure, it's a bulletin board post, not peer reviewed academic research
> ...



Pah.
There's massive culture shock. Just the differences in grammar, punctuation and spelling between Schweitzer-deutsch and Deutsch are a considerable problem, let alone the fact that some Swiss accents make Germans think they're talking to someone with only half a tongue.
Imagine the existential pain caused by moving to a country where most people speak your language even worse than an east Saxon does.


----------



## laptop (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Assuming this is a serious question?
> 
> The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.
> 
> ...



So the citizens of each country are homogenous?

Many of the professors at the University of Beirut would experience less culture-shock moving to the University of Geneva than I would if I were exiled from London to Mansfield.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

laptop said:


> So the citizens of each country are homogenous?


Of course not!


> Many of the professors at the University of Beirut would experience less culture-shock moving to the University of Geneva than I would if I were exiled from London to Mansfield.



You are welcome up here anytime, it really isn't that bad. Heck we've even got running water these days  It could be better of course, but so could anywhere.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2016)

Sorry, LeslieB, but you don't seem to have answered this:



kabbes said:


> What has any of that got to do with your reason for being anti-immigration, which was supposedly local jobs for local people?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

Nothing. The conversation has moved on to Switzerland. Keep up !


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Nothing. The conversation has moved on to Switzerland. Keep up !


That's exactly what my question was about.  You said you don't like immigration because of the effect on jobs.  And then you said it is fine in Switzerland because the immigrants are ethnically similar to the locals.  But those statements don't fit together, do they?


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

kabbes said:


> That's exactly what my question was about.  You said you don't like immigration because of the effect on jobs.


No, I don't like *excessive* *uncontrolled* *economic* immigration, because of the effect on jobs (and housing and services). I'd be happy with immigration with quotas set at roughly the level of emigration (300,000 ish a year)



> And then you said it is fine in Switzerland because the immigrants are ethnically similar to the locals.



No I didn't! Please show me where I said this?

I've no idea whether immigration to Switzerland is good, bad or indifferent. I was merely wondering why the number of Swiss residents with other nationalities was so high, higher than anywhere else in Europe. I wondered if many of them were from neighbouring countries. 

From the numbers Gosub was kind enough to publish it looks like I was broadly right- about 40% of Swiss immigrants seem to come from France, Italy, Germany or Austria.


----------



## gosub (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> No, I don't like *excessive* *uncontrolled* *economic* immigration, because of the effect on jobs (and housing and services). I'd be happy with immigration with quotas set at roughly the level of emigration (300,000 ish a year)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Regardless of whether these interlopers are just from the next valley, the Swiss ain't happy about it, and voted for curbs in a referendum recently...which is incompatiable with their EEA treaties,   a car crash in progress.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2016)

In response to your quote about immigration being to blame for workers' problems, there was the following exchange:



stethoscope said:


> Classic UKIP position innit. Blame immigration and the EU, but not neo-liberalism and right-wing UK governments. Like it's all the former's fault, and not the latter.





LeslieB said:


> The EU *is* neo-liberalism, surely. I think it is fairly right wing too.
> 
> I do blame the UK government for not setting sensible quotas on economic migrants- but then the EU wouldn't allow that. Maybe the government should have played hardball back in 2004, but that is all water under the bridge now.





Lo Siento. said:


> It was always water under the bridge. Globalised labour markets are a permanent feature of modern capitalism, not just part of being in the EU.
> 
> (For instance, the percentage of the population who are foreign-born in the UK is lower than several non-EU countries - Switzerland 28.9%, Norway 13.8%)





LeslieB said:


> That is a high figure for Switzerland. I wonder how many of those are from immediately neighbouring countries and how many are from further afield.





Lo Siento. said:


> But an immigrant is an immigrant, right?





LeslieB said:


> Assuming this is a serious question?
> 
> The language and culture shock of moving between Germany and German Speaking Switzerland, or between NI and the Republic is going to be pretty much zero. Some local laws might be different and that is pretty much it.
> 
> ...



Etc.

The point is that in response to it being pointed out to you that other non-EU countries have higher EU immigration than the UK, you then shifted the goalposts to talk about culture and ethnicity instead of the thing you were originally objected to.


----------



## LeslieB (Feb 24, 2016)

kabbes said:


> The point is that in response to it being pointed out to you that other non-EU countries have higher EU immigration than the UK, you then shifted the goalposts to talk about culture and ethnicity instead of the thing you were originally objected to.



Oh for goodness sake there are no 'goalposts'. I've decided which way I'm voting in this referendum, I'm not so self important as to assume I'm going to have the slightest influence over how anyone else votes, certainly not random people on an internet politics forum.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh for goodness sake there are no 'goalposts'. I've decided which way I'm voting in this referendum, I'm not so self important as to assume I'm going to have the slightest influence over how anyone else votes, certainly not random people on an internet politics forum.


More evasion.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Feb 24, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Sure, it's a bulletin board post, not peer reviewed academic research.


Don't think I was asking for you to conduct any academic research. Anything with any coherence whatsoever would be nice.



> I'm not saying that at all. I'm genuinely interested in Switzerland's seemingly very high figure of 28.9% of people born in another country, and suspect the proximity to other countries speaking the same languages might have something to do with it.
> 
> Of course some people cope well with a move thousands of miles overseas, whilst someone else might struggle with a move to the next town. But there is a difference in the level of culture shock between moving from southern Germany to Switzerland  and moving from the Middle East or North Africa to Switzerland. There just *is*, and to deny it is stupid.



There you go again just assuming something is simple when it's really very complex. There's no meaningful way of analysing what "culture shock" is, what produces it, or generalising about who it has an impact on and what effects it has.

Where exactly in Southern Germany to where exactly in Switzerland? Where exactly in the Middle East or North Africa? Are they from cities, towns or villages? What made them leave? A secular background or a religious one (and what religion)? What social class are these migrants? What education or training do they have? What employment awaits them in their destination country? What language skills do they have? What contacts do they have in the place they're moving to? Is there a substantial community from their place of origin? Are they used to travelling or moving house? What gender are they? Do they have kids? Do they have disabilities? How old are they?

Jesus, I could go on all bloody day. And before you say it, "all things being equal" does not apply. All things are never equal.


----------



## weltweit (Feb 24, 2016)

Registered to vote today, I won't miss this one!


----------



## gosub (Feb 25, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Oh for goodness sake there are no 'goalposts'. I've decided which way I'm voting in this referendum, I'm not so self important as to assume I'm going to have the slightest influence over how anyone else votes, certainly not random people on an internet politics forum.



If you have done so on the back of immigration, I think either way you would be disappointed.  However, IN and you are chained to a central pillar.  OUT,whilst still tethered, its a step on a thousand mile journey.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Registered to vote today



Well the EU referendum will be bringing a *first ever* for us. We'll have to register for postal votes**  

**It might be just under four months until the referendum, but *far more importantly* , it's also just under four months to Glastonbury


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Feb 25, 2016)

gosub said:


> *If you have done so on the back of immigration, I think either way you would be disappointed.*  However, IN and you are chained to a central pillar.  OUT,whilst still tethered, its a step on a thousand mile journey.


This needs to be emphasised. Leaving the EU won't do much to change immigration to Britain. UKIP's popularity is based on an illusion.


----------



## gosub (Feb 25, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> This needs to be emphasised. Leaving the EU won't do much to change immigration to Britain. UKIP's popularity is based on an illusion.




Depends on the nature of OUT.   But the OUT that allows for major change for in immigration policy is SO damaging for business, nobody would be coming here anyway, quite the contrary.

it would add headaches even to getting mutual recognition agreements -that are quick fix  on trade treaties


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Feb 25, 2016)

Most immigration to Britain comes from outside the EU. It's people from the former empire coming to join their relatives, or else refugees coming under the terms of the 1952 treaty. These things have nothing to do with the EU. Britain isn't even a member of Schengen so isn't required to accept refugees who come in through Greece and Italy. And as we saw in 2004, even lawful EU immigration can be blocked "temporarily" (years and years) if member governments judge it's a threat to social stability.


----------



## Teaboy (Feb 25, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> Most immigration to Britain comes from outside the EU. It's people from the former empire coming to join their relatives, or else refugees coming under the terms of the 1952 treaty. These things have nothing to do with the EU. Britain isn't even a member of Schengen so isn't required to accept refugees who come in through Greece and Italy. And as we saw in 2004, even lawful EU immigration can be blocked "temporarily" (years and years) if member governments judge it's a threat to social stability.



This article from today showing the most recent figures suggests that it terms of net migration over 50% are from the EU. Unless I've read it wrong.

Net migration at 323,000 prompts EU referendum row - BBC News


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Feb 25, 2016)

OK, it's been a while since I read up on this stuff so I may be wrong. Last time I checked the balance was the other way.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2016)

LeslieB said:


> Of course not. But I also live very much in the real world. Can I introduce the following clip Inside Out East Midlands, 22/02/2016
> Please give it a try- you only need to watch the first ten minutes of that. I actually come from the southern half of Derbyshire, but Shirebrook very similar area to where I come from, and yes, my accent is pretty much like that as well
> 
> Something like Sports Direct should have been a boon to a post mining town like Shirebrook, but much of the benefit has gone to incoming workers. Because there are so many potential EU workers, the workforce gets treated like shit and no one gains except the fat cats.  And there is real pressure on housing and services.
> ...



Sports Direct doesn't have a good reputation as an employer.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Every part except your house.



Err... no.


----------



## jakethesnake (Feb 25, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> Sports Direct doesn't have a good reputation as an employer.


Lol... no it doesn't. People worried about the erosion of wages and worker's rights should be campaigning for greater trade union protection. Foreign workers aren't the problem. The bosses are the problem.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One thing LEAVE does offer is the tiny possibility that our future may not be governed by wholly unaccountable, undemocratic neo-liberalists. Leave and we may well end up with that, stay and there is no choice but to end up like that.
> 
> And one more thing if we stay:
> 
> ...



And if we do vote to leave, there is nothing to stop the EU from raising trade tariffs against our exports, or indeed barring financial transactions via the London markets. Frankfurt would probably be the main winner in that scenario.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 25, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> Most immigration to Britain comes from outside the EU. It's people from the former empire coming to join their relatives, or else refugees coming under the terms of the 1952 treaty.



Only by a small amount though. And the part about refugees is just wrong.



> - 560,000 people immigrated to the UK in the year ending March 2014, a statistically significant increase from 492,000 in the previous 12 months. Two-thirds of the increase is accounted for by immigration of EU citizens (up 44,000 to 214,000).
> 
> - 265,000 non-EU citizens immigrated to the UK in the year ending March 2014. This ends a steady decline since the recent peak of 334,000 in 2011.





> the UK received 31,300 new applications for asylum by the end of 2014.



31,300 out of 560,000 does not a majority make.


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2016)

aren't the german & london exchanges merging? sure I heard that on the news the other day...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> aren't the german & london exchanges merging? sure I heard that on the news the other day...



I hadn't heard that, and can't really imagine why it would happen. Do you have any more details?


----------



## gosub (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> aren't the german & london exchanges merging? sure I heard that on the news the other day...


Talks suspended, pended the outcome of the EU referendum


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 25, 2016)

gosub said:


> Talks suspended, pended the outcome of the EU referendum



Ah...


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2016)

gosub said:


> Talks suspended, pended the outcome of the EU referendum


ah, another reason why _we'll be economically better off within the EU_. This shit is so transparent.


----------



## laptop (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> aren't the german & london exchanges merging? sure I heard that on the news the other day...



My first thought was that in the event of an exit vote, the London Stock Exchange would be declared German territory 

(Not that that'd do anything at all to improve the conditions of life of anyone, anywhere, except two lawyers working for the Boerse & LSE.)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> And if we do vote to leave, there is nothing to stop the EU from raising trade tariffs against our exports, or indeed barring financial transactions via the London markets. Frankfurt would probably be the main winner in that scenario.



Although the EU could *legislatively* bar financial transactions, money will always seek the point of greatest return. If transacting in London is more beneficial than transacting in Hamburg, then businesses and capital will find a way around legislation.


----------



## gosub (Feb 25, 2016)

OOpps .   not suspended (could have sworn I read that somewhere)Deutsche Börse timed LSE bid to exploit EU vote uncertainty - FT.com


Deutsche Börse deliberately launched its bid for the London Stock Exchange Group amid the political uncertainty surrounding Britain’s “Brexit” vote in order to steal a march on US rivals.

Some commentators have expressed surprise at the timing of the cross-border bid to create a regional trading champion only months before the UK could vote to leave the EU.
But people close to the negotiations told the Financial Times that the timing was deliberate, and designed to move while potential predators awaited the outcome of the June 23 UK referendum. “Brexit provided the camouflage,” said one person familiar with the discussions.

The exchanges are closing in on a deal to create an infrastructure that would serve as a connection between Europe’s pre-eminent financial centre and the rest of the EU, irrespective of the British vote.

“We are providing a wonderful bridge across regulatory regimes and use whatever outcome there is to the advantage of EU, UK or Germany,” the person said.

The combination has also been discussed with senior politicians in London and Berlin. It is understood from those close to the deal that Downing Street was kept informed about the possible merger of the two exchanges: David Cameron’s spokesman said Downing Street had no concerns about it.

The deal, which may come as early as next week, is set to outline an “all-share merger of equals” that creates a unified European entity able to fend off potential bids from US duo CME Group and Intercontinental Exchange (ICE).

A combined Deutsche Börse and LSE would have a market capitalisation of around $28bn, comparable to their US rivals. Xavier Rolet, chief executive of the LSE, and Carsten Kengeter, his German counterpart, also hope to exploit potential distractions at ICE, which last year spent $6bn on the purchases of Interactive Data Corp and Trayport.

Both ICE and the CME may also need to shift some assets from London into the eurozone in the event of a “leave” vote.

The transaction’s structure is also being designed to allay concerns among German politicians and employees that the deal will see further economic power ebbing to London. A formal deal is likely to reveal a London-based holding company with dual headquarters in the UK capital and Frankfurt.

Günter Isemeyer, spokesman for Verdi, the German services trade union, said it was a “matter of concern” that there would be only one board of the new London-based holding company.

He said it would have implications for “Mitbestimmung” or “co-determination” — the German system under which workers can elect trade union representatives to supervisory boards. However, few Deutsche Börse employees are Verdi members.


not a subscriber either killer b


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2016)

No use for non-subscribers gosub. Can you pirate the content?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 25, 2016)

gosub said:


> “We are providing a wonderful bridge across regulatory regimes and use whatever outcome there is to the advantage of EU, UK or Germany,” the person said.


Yeah, I'm sure that labour will benefit greatly.
(cheers for the story gosub)


----------



## teqniq (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> No use for non-subscribers gosub. Can you pirate the content?


It is free to register and you get to view three articles a month also for free. Unfortunately I've used all mine up for this month as otherwise I would c&p it here.


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 25, 2016)

I don't read the Sun but what way are they manipulating?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 25, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> I don't read the Sun but what way are they manipulating?



All murdoch media is pro-remain


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 25, 2016)

J Ed said:


> All murdoch media is pro-remain



Bremain it is then. Conversation over.


----------



## gosub (Feb 25, 2016)

J Ed said:


> All murdoch media is pro-remain



Not settled yet Murdoch's Sun newspaper opposes PM Cameron's EU deal


----------



## J Ed (Feb 25, 2016)

gosub said:


> Not settled yet Murdoch's Sun newspaper opposes PM Cameron's EU deal



Pure theatre


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> All murdoch media is pro-remain



They don't want to lose their favourite bogeyman.

Come to think of it, once the question is settled (assuming it will be, without some kind of fudge) what the fuck are they going to talk about on Question Time forever more?  What the fuck will all the local paper website below-the-line commentator bores do with themselves if they can't blame the local wheelie bin crisis on the evil EU?  Are those people going to take their sense of empowerment and start shuffling around in public like some zombie army demanding an end to political correctness and removal of VAT from Werthers originals?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Pure theatre


Yes, the man is like a living, click-bait, performance art piece...


> I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”


----------



## youngian (Feb 26, 2016)

Murdoch is a predictable addition to the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Murdoch is a predictable addition to the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics.



Indeed. IIRC they were instrumental in Blair's ascendancy.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Murdoch is a predictable addition to the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics.


Let's make this clear - what papers does he own and what are those papers positions on the referendum?

"the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics." was the yes to AV campaign btw. Where were you on that one?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> "the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics." was the yes to AV campaign btw.


----------



## youngian (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> "the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics." was the yes to AV campaign btw. Where were you on that one?


Like crime commissioner elections it passed me by. Wasn't the campaign just Nick Clegg? Point taken


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Like crime commissioner elections it passed me by. Wasn't the campaign just Nick Clegg? Point taken



The first part of the post:


> Murdoch is a predictable addition to the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics.



Let's make this clear - what papers does he own and what are those papers positions on the referendum? What's the addition?


----------



## youngian (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The first part of the post:
> 
> 
> Let's make this clear - what papers does he own and what are those papers positions on the referendum? What's the addition?


The Sun is out and the Times is mainly out but steering a more liberal course. And Murdoch is an addition to a group featuring Ian Duncan-Smith, Boris Johnson, Farage, Iain Paisley Jr, Galloway, David Icke and Katie Hopkins.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> The Sun is out and the Times is mainly out but steering a more liberal course. And Murdoch is an addition to a group featuring Ian Duncan-Smith, Boris Johnson, Farage, Iain Paisley Jr, Galloway, David Icke and Katie Hopkins.


There is no mainly in or out. So what do we really have? What are the actual sourced and evidenced positions of the murdoch owned papers?

This second bit doesn't follow then, does it?


----------



## youngian (Feb 26, 2016)

Yeh I got it all wrong the Sun loves the EU


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 26, 2016)

That's a different point to whether it's in favour of a _remain_ vote.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Yeh I got it all wrong the Sun loves the EU


There is no mainly in or out. So what do we really have? What are the actual sourced and evidenced positions of the murdoch owned papers?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

I think youngian's position is the same as murdoch's.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> The Sun is out and the Times is mainly out but steering a more liberal course. And Murdoch is an addition to a group featuring Ian Duncan-Smith, Boris Johnson, Farage, Iain Paisley Jr, Galloway, David Icke and Katie Hopkins.


Contemptible post btw


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 26, 2016)

Sorry, I'm not reading the whole thread so I expect the answer is here somewhere, but is there anywhere I can see the arguments for and against leaving the EU? I understand it's not really as clear cut as that but is there somewhere I can find some facts? I know I'm not the only one that would like to make a decision based on something more than the nothing I have right now.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> The Sun is out and the Times is mainly out but steering a more liberal course. And Murdoch is an addition to a group featuring Ian Duncan-Smith, Boris Johnson, Farage, Iain Paisley Jr, Galloway, David Icke and Katie Hopkins.


Three factual errors and a smear of racism, loyalism, toryism, anti-semitism and fuck knows what else in two lines. Well done.

Have you just been hired from the AV campaign?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> "the biggest cacophony of cunts ever assembled in British politics." was the yes to AV campaign btw. Where were you on that one?



True, but the Lib-Dems are gone, now.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 26, 2016)

lizzieloo said:


> Sorry, I'm not reading the whole thread so I expect the answer is here somewhere, but is there anywhere I can see the arguments for and against leaving the EU? I understand it's not really as clear cut as that but is there somewhere I can find some facts? I know I'm not the only one that would like to make a decision based on something more than the nothing I have right now.


What _facts_ are you interested in? 

There are arguments for and against spread over a number of threads - this one, 
Progressive arguments for staying in the EU, How will you vote in the EU Referendum, Brexit or Bremain.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Yeh I got it all wrong the Sun loves the EU



IMO Murdoch's papers are giving it plenty of 'sceptic rhetoric, but they've not come out hard against the EU like you might expect. Murdoch, as ever, has his eye to the main chance, and is playing a waiting game.he knows that taking the wrong line could harm his business.


----------



## panpete (Feb 26, 2016)

It's a shitty choice, be left on this little island with the lunatics we have in power, or be governed by faceless beuarucrats and have TTIP if we go to the EU, I don't want any option to be honest, Brexit or no Brexit, is there a third option?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> IMO Murdoch's papers are giving it plenty of 'sceptic rhetoric, but they've not come out hard against the EU like you might expect. Murdoch, as ever, has his eye to the main chance, and is playing a waiting game.he knows that taking the wrong line could harm his business.



I think that his comment today about being listened to in Westminster but not Brussels was calculated to help Remain.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that his comment today about being listened to in Westminster but not Brussels was calculated to help Remain.


It was meant to help his ego - nothing else. The game isn't played like this.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that his comment today about being listened to in Westminster but not Brussels was calculated to help Remain.


It was, apparently, quite an old quote that Hilton had remembered. Blair; I'd imagine.


----------



## youngian (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Three factual errors and a smear of racism, loyalism, toryism, anti-semitism and fuck knows what else in two lines. Well done.



Who did I leave out; advocates of a Bennite protectionist autarky? I'd like to hear you argue that one on the doorsteps comrade


----------



## J Ed (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Who did I leave out; advocates of a Bennite protectionist autarky? I'd like to hear you argue that one on the doorsteps comrade



Why do you love Goldman Sachs so much?


----------



## youngian (Feb 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Why do you love Goldman Sachs so much?


Because I'm a Bilderberg lizard man who wants to be mind controlled from Brussels.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Because I'm a Bilderberg lizard man who wants to be mind controlled from Brussels.



high larious


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

youngian said:


> Who did I leave out; advocates of a Bennite protectionist autarky? I'd like to hear you argue that one on the doorsteps comrade


This is rubbish. You're rubbish. Get off.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 27, 2016)

"Britain’s possible exit from the European Union could pose a risk to the world economy, according to a leaked draft communique from the G20 finance ministers summit in China." Amazing how this "leaked" out.



> The reported G20 Brexit warning will be welcomed by the prime minister David Cameron as he tries to make the case for the UK to stay in the EU when the referendum is held on 23 June.
> 
> His cause has been dealt a blow by the declaration of Boris Johnson for the leave camp.
> 
> But the G20 statement would come with the endorsement of not only his chancellor George Osborne but also Bank of England governor Mark Carney and would be the latest in a series of red flags from the business world. Others have included the The credit agency Moody’s and IMF chief Christine Lagarde.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 27, 2016)

G20 finance ministers now doing the 'but, but, for the good of global capitalism…' fear-stoking for the UK to stay in.

Brexit 'could pose a risk to the world economy', says draft G20 communique


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 27, 2016)

Good article here from Tommy Mckearney. Although directed primarily at an Idish audience the points raised are valid in the Brexit context.

Communist Party of Ireland


----------



## youngian (Feb 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> G20 finance ministers now doing the 'but, but, for the good of global capitalism…' fear-stoking for the UK to stay in.
> 
> Brexit 'could pose a risk to the world economy', says draft G20 communique


If it wasn't for a decade of fear-stoking by UKIP and the Tory headbangers we wouldn't be having this farce of a referendum


----------



## teqniq (Feb 27, 2016)

Bizarre.

EU shelves plans to ban super strength kettles for the most British reason ever



> A ban on super-strength kettles has been put on hold amid fears that it could drive Britain to leave the EU, it has been reported....


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

youngian said:


> If it wasn't for a decade of fear-stoking by UKIP and the Tory headbangers we wouldn't be having this farce of a referendum


_We could have kept it quiet. No one would have known._


----------



## mk12 (Feb 27, 2016)

youngian said:


> If it wasn't for a decade of fear-stoking by UKIP and the Tory headbangers we wouldn't be having this farce of a referendum



The voting public is split on this vital question. Why shouldn't there be a referendum on it?


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2016)

I'm still really torn on this.

Politically, "out". Personally, " in".


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The voting public is split on this vital question. Why shouldn't there be a referendum on it?


Because everyone else is an idiot who doesn't matter.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> I'm still really torn on this.
> 
> Politically, "out". Personally, " in".


Were you torn over the USSR?


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Were you torn over the USSR?



Heh. More so as I get older!

Seriously though, with a wife born in one EU country and a daughter born in another plus all the many good experiences in my life that have been enabled by the "European project" its hard to vote "out". Even when I know "out" is the strategically better move.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Heh. More so as I get older!
> 
> Seriously though, with a wife born in one EU country and a daughter born in another plus all the many good experiences in my life that have been enabled by the "European project" its hard to vote "out". Even when I know "out" is the strategically better move.


We're losing you.


----------



## chilango (Feb 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> We're losing you.



Far from it.

I'm closer to voting "out" than I've ever been before.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 27, 2016)

After reading these threads, & now having a clearer understanding, I'm out.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Heh. More so as I get older!
> 
> Seriously though, with a wife born in one EU country and a daughter born in another plus all the many good experiences in my life that have been enabled by the "European project" its hard to vote "out". Even when I know "out" is the strategically better move.


We've got nothing to offer you. The powerful always have things to offer.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> Far from it.
> 
> I'm closer to voting "out" than I've ever been before.


In that case, ignore above


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> After reading these threads, & now having a clearer understanding, I'm out.


Makes  making clear  a useful thing to do. There's a lot of space to eat into.


----------



## NoXion (Feb 27, 2016)

I used to be in, but after what happened with Greece, I'm out.


----------



## youngian (Feb 27, 2016)

mk12 said:


> The voting public is split on this vital question. Why shouldn't there be a referendum on it?


The referendum will be decided by 35% of the population who don't really care either way and will vote on the recommendation of the politicians they trust, which in 80% of referendums around the world those politicians are in the government they just elected. This referendum is likely to conform to that pattern* and those who want to leave won't accept the result anyway; "It was a government/establishment stitch-up," "they didn't campaign on the real issues." And the first piece of social or environmental pan-European legislation post-referendum will also produce cat calls from the likes of Farage who will tell you that "this is not what the British people voted on they voted for free trade and we've been conned again."

Belonging to the EU is not some sideshow but a fundamental issue about where you want to take the country. Any leader who calls a referendum on this issue is masking the fact that they are not in control of their own party. It's lucky for Cameron that most of the public don't care enough about the EU either way to question this weakness.

* Although Toby Young on Newsnight made the point that this referendum will be different to 1975 as the inclusion of Michael Gove and Boris Johnson will mean that Out campaigners can't be portrayed as cranks and chancers.


----------



## weltweit (Feb 27, 2016)

We have this referendum because Cameron needed a way to keep the Tories together during the last election. And having been elected with the referendum as one of their policies we have to have it. My hope was the Tories would not have been elected as that would have sidelined this issue.


----------



## youngian (Feb 27, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> After reading these threads, & now having a clearer understanding, I'm out.


As this is not a site for nationalists and neo-liberal headbangers, I'm still unclear how the left-wing case for leaving the EU would be implemented in the 21st century. For example, if you want to implement national exchange controls how would you block bank transfers on my iphone? I doubt if quoting Tony Benn fortune cookie wisdom would do the trick. You will also need a state monopoly over trade if you want to a national planned economy. And how you will you explain to people on the doorsteps they may have to wait up to a year or pay extortionate black market prices for their favourite gadgets? Good luck with that.


----------



## youngian (Feb 27, 2016)

weltweit said:


> We have this referendum because Cameron needed a way to keep the Tories together during the last election. And having been elected with the referendum as one of their policies we have to have it. My hope was the Tories would not have been elected as that would have sidelined this issue.


Leadership is so much about emotion, perception and the art of bullshit which Ed Miliband wasn't very good at. But he was the one who was standing firm and had clarity on the issue of the EU not Cameron.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 27, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> G20 finance ministers now doing the 'but, but, for the good of global capitalism…' fear-stoking for the UK to stay in.
> 
> Brexit 'could pose a risk to the world economy', says draft G20 communique


And more, please save us, CBI/IMF/ECB



> The UK would face a decade of massive economic uncertainty with potentially disastrous consequences for business and the pound if it voted to leave the EU, the Europe minister says.





> At the G20 finance ministers meeting US Treasury secretary Jack Lew expressed clear support for Britain’s continued membership of the EU.
> 
> “Our view is that it’s in the national security and economic security [interests] of the United Kingdom, of Europe and of the United States for the United Kingdom to stay in the European Union.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 28, 2016)

Has anyone put any money on the UK voting leave?


----------



## youngian (Feb 28, 2016)

> Hedge fund managers are set to earn as much as £250m a year if the UK leaves the EU:
> 
> Coincidentally, here are just a few of the donations made to Boris Johnson by hedge fund managers in the run up to his decision to back Brexit:
> 
> ...


 Boris Johnson bankrolled by hedge fund managers set to gain £250m a year from Brexit


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 28, 2016)

And yet Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan and other banks have made huge donations to staying in?

So, I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove really. Both in and out arguments are being led by neo-liberalism and capital interests over everybody else. Well yeah.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 28, 2016)

Sasaferrato said:


> And if we do vote to leave, there is nothing to stop the EU from raising trade tariffs against our exports, or indeed barring financial transactions via the London markets. Frankfurt would probably be the main winner in that scenario.



Yeah, can just see the VW Group of turkeys voting for that Christmas.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 28, 2016)

The illustrator of the Gruffalo has stated that there would be no Gruffalo if Britain was not in the EU.

Serious times.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The illustrator of the Gruffalo has stated that there would be no Gruffalo if Britain was not in the EU.
> 
> Serious times.



Indeed.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 28, 2016)

youngian said:


> Boris Johnson bankrolled by hedge fund managers set to gain £250m a year from Brexit


and £250M (these figures look suspiciously small?) from Bremain. The clue being in the name; hedge funds.


----------



## newbie (Feb 28, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And yet Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan and other banks have made huge donations to staying in?
> 
> So, I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove really. Both in and out arguments are being led by neo-liberalism and capital interests over everybody else. Well yeah.


isn't the point about city gambling that they'll all put money on both sides and expect to win whatever happens? 

Anyway 250m is peanuts to the likes of Goldman Sachs & JPMorgan, and Tom Pride is being silly, Johnson could get 60 grand from either side, suggesting he's been bought is a bit farfetched.

e2a brogdale types faster and put it better


----------



## gosub (Feb 28, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> G20 finance ministers now doing the 'but, but, for the good of global capitalism…' fear-stoking for the UK to stay in.
> 
> Brexit 'could pose a risk to the world economy', says draft G20 communique




That's quite insulting to the Scots.  I'd guess Gideon asked them all to come up with a soundbite and they did. 

 Don't remember them doing similar in the Scots referendum.   The EU debate : there's a clear exit mechanism where things can be managed.  The Scot referendum, that was, a one level, an existential crisis in a global reserve currency at the core of one the world most significant financial centres...with no agreed procedure had Yes won.


----------



## gosub (Feb 28, 2016)

youngian said:


> The referendum will be decided by 35% of the population who don't really care either way and will vote on the recommendation of the politicians they trust, which in 80% of referendums around the world those politicians are in the government they just elected. This referendum is likely to conform to that pattern* and those who want to leave won't accept the result anyway;* "It was a government/establishment stitch-up,*" "they didn't campaign on the real issues." And the first piece of social or environmental pan-European legislation post-referendum will also produce cat calls from the likes of Farage who will tell you that "this is not what the British people voted on they voted for free trade and we've been conned again."
> 
> Belonging to the EU is not some sideshow but a fundamental issue about where you want to take the country. Any leader who calls a referendum on this issue is masking the fact that they are not in control of their own party. It's lucky for Cameron that most of the public don't care enough about the EU either way to question this weakness.
> 
> * Although Toby Young on Newsnight made the point that this referendum will be different to 1975 as the inclusion of Michael Gove and Boris Johnson will mean that Out campaigners can't be portrayed as cranks and chancers.



Well,if I'm honest I am finding this the civil service is campaigning for IN stuff a bit  :neutrality of of the civil service, Treaty of Vienna and all that, And this legally binding treaty Cameron's done with the other EUropean Head's of Government, that doesn't seem to need to go through their Parliaments.

The abandonment of the Electoral Commission guidelines, with regard to timeframe, not so much.


I'd quite like to hear what the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Select Committee get out of Sir Jeremy Heywood on Tuesday afternoon, but it doesn't appear to be being streamed.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 28, 2016)

UK officials 'instigated G20 Brexit warning'



			
				Grauniad said:
			
		

> A bleak warning that a British exit from the EU would deliver a shock to the global economy was introduced into the formal communique of the G20 finance ministers in Shanghai after lobbying by the UK, according to diplomatic sources.
> 
> The warning by the G20 was seized on by George Osborne who said that his fellow finance ministers had “given their unanimous verdict that a British exit from the EU would be a shock to the world economy”.
> 
> ...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 28, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The illustrator of the Gruffalo has stated that there would be no Gruffalo if Britain was not in the EU.
> 
> Serious times.



Or Tintin. Or Asterix. Just Enid Blyton. Which is what the little Englander swine want though.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 28, 2016)

Infighting in gov ranks getting nastier


> Sir Jeremy Heywood, the cabinet secretary, is facing allegations that he is acting in a constitutionally improper manner following reports that senior civil servants are being told to bypass ministers who want to leave the EU.
> 
> Bernard Jenkin, the chairman of the Commons public administration select committee, said Heywood appeared to be acting in an “unorthodox and unprecedented” manner.
> 
> Heywood is expected to face pressure on Monday amid signs that John Bercow would grant an urgent question in the Commons about guidelines banning civil servants from showing official papers related to the EU referendum to Brexit ministers.



All to the good.


----------



## gosub (Feb 28, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Infighting in gov ranks getting nastier
> 
> 
> All to the good.


be under even more pressure when Heywood has to go before Jenkin's Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Select Committee (7 out / 4 in) at 4:15 on Tuesday.  Which isn't streamed, unlike their meeting in the morning and unlike the meeting that using that room in the morning, and pretty much all other business in Westminster that day, and they have spare channels.

UpPeriscope!


----------



## newbie (Feb 29, 2016)

I'm with redsquirrel in celebrating tories tearing each other to bits.  

I can see why Out are whining but they're delusional if they think In won't use every possible lever and dirty trick they can find.  Power to influence others is central to that, whether it's ordering the civil service around or smarming the G20. Out doesn't have that power or the same opportunities.  This is getting dirtier, both sides will obviously use everything they can, from personality based smearing and _you can't be in our gang anymore_ to anything else they can find.  

I'd like to think that will be confined to the tories and the left- or, as the other thread puts it, 'progressive'- side of the debate will take a longer-term approach, recognising that we're all going to be on the same side afterwards, whatever the result.  That's probably me being delusional though


----------



## teqniq (Feb 29, 2016)

Yup if cuts, cuts, cuts, blatant dishonesty and suchlike can't motivate public opinion sufficiently to want them gone then I'm more than happy to see them tear themselves apart.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 29, 2016)

I wonder how many of those whining about this iteration of Project Fear were on board with the lies, distortions and use of state power against the Scottish yes vote?


----------



## teqniq (Feb 29, 2016)

Haha yes indeed.


----------



## newbie (Feb 29, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I wonder how many of those whining about this iteration of Project Fear were on board with the lies, distortions and use of state power against the Scottish yes vote?


quite so. I can't be bothered to go back and check but I'll bet the Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith's of this world were perfectly happy to deploy whatever they could in that (and the AV ref).

they won't be gone at the end of all this, it's just a question of which ones are holed below the waterline on the way.  the more the merrier


----------



## marty21 (Feb 29, 2016)

What I am looking forward to is the infighting / civil war within the Tory Party, if we bremain - then Cameron will surely settle some scores afterwards - if we brexit, then he'll have to go and then there will be a bruising leadership battle and possibly a snap election. The new leader will not want to have to deal with legitimacy issues, they won't want to be a tory Gordon Brown.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 29, 2016)

Sooner or later the 'In' campaign will realise they have to offer people something to vote for rather than against.  The kipper types (who form the majority but not all of the out campaign) have a lot of well-motivated and vocal supporters, and are mostly of the demographic that is more likely to vote.  I think building support for the 'In' campaign is harder, particularly as the liberal and soft-left types more likely to support this won't feel as enthusiastic rallying to Cameron's flag.

What are the betting markets saying?  I know some people on here follow that stuff (gambling sites blocked at work so no can't check myself)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Feb 29, 2016)

I wonder how many Scottish nationalists will be voting to leave the EU as a way of making another referendum on Scotland more likely.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 29, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> I wonder how many Scottish nationalists will be voting to leave the EU as a way of making another referendum on Scotland more likely.


Won't work if the breakdown of the vote shows that people in Scotland voted to leave the EU in similar numbers to the rest of the UK.  They will only get another referendum if the vote goes to LEAVE and there is clear water between the popularity of that in Scotland versus Rump UK.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 29, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Sooner or later the 'In' campaign will realise they have to offer people something to vote for rather than against.


Not necessarily. They have the advantage of the status quo. They might well win even if they have no campaign at all.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not necessarily. They have the advantage of the status quo. They might well win even if they have no campaign at all.


 As did the stay in campaign in the Scottish referendum, I've a feeling the vote to Brexit will be a lot lower than the very enthusiastic kippers are saying. I also think if we vote to stay, it won't 'lance the boil' , kippers will be incensed and will keep on going, convinced that the majority vote was wrong - plus they will have conspiracy theories to feed off for years and media bias too


----------



## Smangus (Feb 29, 2016)

If the vote is to stay the Tories will implode.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 29, 2016)

I prefer the 'they will implode anyway' option. Well I can always live in hope.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 29, 2016)

Smangus said:


> If the vote is to stay the Tories will implode.


It is win win , whatever the result , the Tories will go to war


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 29, 2016)

marty21 said:


> It is win win , whatever the result , the Tories will go to war


----------



## sim667 (Feb 29, 2016)

One of my friends is quite panicked by this whole referendum....... she's on a belgian passport, but has lived here since she was about 10 (now 28), has a career, friends and owns a home here..... but keeps asking me whether its a good idea for her to apply for residency before this all kicks off anymore.

I have no idea


----------



## gosub (Feb 29, 2016)

sim667 said:


> One of my friends is quite panicked by this whole referendum....... she's on a belgian passport, but has lived here since she was about 10 (now 28), has a career, friends and owns a home here..... but keeps asking me whether its a good idea for her to apply for residency before this all kicks off anymore.
> 
> I have no idea



Not if she doesn't really want it.  In the event of a Leave vote, she would have 2 years to deal with stuff like that.  
eta
Skyscraper, below, is also probably right.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 29, 2016)

sim667 said:


> One of my friends is quite panicked by this whole referendum....... she's on a belgian passport, but has lived here since she was about 10 (now 28), has a career, friends and owns a home here..... but keeps asking me whether its a good idea for her to apply for residency before this all kicks off anymore.
> 
> I have no idea



Extremely unlikely. Even in the unlikely scenario that Britain exits and visa restrictions started coming into effect for new arrivals from the EU, someone who's been living here for that long with property wouldn't be affected. I'd put money on that.

Think of the reciprocal upheaval to all the hundreds of thousands of Brits living in the Costa Del Sol etc if no free movement agreement was reached.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 29, 2016)

sim667 said:


> One of my friends is quite panicked by this whole referendum....... she's on a belgian passport, but has lived here since she was about 10 (now 28), has a career, friends and owns a home here..... but keeps asking me whether its a good idea for her to apply for residency before this all kicks off anymore.
> 
> I have no idea



It's probably worth her going for it, just because they're tightening things up all the time and it may be less easy in a few years.  It's quite expensive, but not going to get any cheaper.

My OH is EU (working here about 8 years), she's waiting on citizenship at the moment.  A lot of her friends working here from various bits of the world (including non-EU) have put in for it recently too, because they see the way the mood is turning and the strength of anti-immigration rhetoric. 

They've even changed some of the rules during the process, one of her friends nearly got caught out by a rule change while she was out of the country for her dad's funeral, but fortunately the local council who manage the process managed to squeeze in some meeting/interview before the deadline, which was good of them (it's heartening that people who manage the process at a local level are helpful and nice even when the rules and rhetoric coming from central government is so hostile).

I think there was a newspaper article recently highlighting that there's been a big rise in applications, which isn't surprising.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 29, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Extremely unlikely. Even in the unlikely scenario that Britain exits and visa restrictions started coming into effect for new arrivals from the EU, someone who's been living here for that long with property wouldn't be affected. I'd put money on that.
> 
> Think of the reciprocal upheaval to all the hundreds of thousands of Brits living in the Costa Del Sol etc if no free movement agreement was reached.


I agree wrt the case quoted. However, I have Bulgarian friends who came here far more recently, and they are also concerned. Like it or not, 'brexit' is being fought on the battleground of immigration - those wanting to restrict it will be in a powerful position if the UK leaves the EU.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree wrt the case quoted. However, I have Bulgarian friends who came here far more recently, and they are also concerned. Like it or not, 'brexit' is being fought on the battleground of immigration - those wanting to restrict it will be in a powerful position if the UK leaves the EU.



This is all hypothetical of course, but I'd put money on any EU citizen currently living and working here having to face being sent back. There are hundreds if not thousands of Brits living in Bulgaria too and I just can't see how this situation would come about - there's too many reciprocal benefits from the EU that they will use this as a negotiating point on.

I can see a potential play for restrictions coming in on new EU arrivals (benefits restrictions mainly), but in the case of existing EU residents living and working in the UK, I just couldn't see anyone being sent back unvoluntarily, much as some hardliners may wish it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 29, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> This is all hypothetical of course, but I'd put money on any EU citizen currently living and working here having to face being sent back. There are hundreds if not thousands of Brits living in Bulgaria too and I just can't see how this situation would come about - there's too many reciprocal benefits from the EU that they will use this as a negotiating point on.
> 
> I can see a potential play for restrictions coming in on new EU arrivals (benefits restrictions mainly), but in the case of existing EU residents living and working in the UK, I just couldn't see anyone being sent back unvoluntarily, much as some hardliners may wish it.


Presumably they will have to apply for a work permit. What the exact conditions for these will be, we don't know.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Presumably they will have to apply for a work permit. What the exact conditions for these will be, we don't know.



Worst case scenario. I hope.

I also hope in the event of Brexit, no EU citizen living here or wishing to live here will be stopped from doing so, and UK citizens will be free to live and work in the EU too. I think that concession will be a given with so much trade to lose with the bloc if an agreement can't be reached.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 29, 2016)

Maybe this has already been said (it's a long thread) but there are maybe 2m Brits living and working in the EU? And they will get the vote if they have been gone less than 15 years, it it is a close run referendum, the turnout amongst the ex pats might be crucial - they have a lot to lose if we do Brexit.


----------



## sim667 (Feb 29, 2016)

marty21 said:


> they have a lot to lose if we do Brexit.



I bet you quite a lot of the retirees in spain will vote to leave though..... I'm always surprised by the anti eu / ukip support amongst my mum and dads expat friends in spain.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 29, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I bet you quite a lot of the retirees in spain will vote to leave though..... I'm always surprised by the anti eu / ukip support amongst my mum and dads expat friends in spain.


  what has the EU ever done for them


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 29, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Worst case scenario. I hope.
> 
> I also hope in the event of Brexit, no EU citizen living here or wishing to live here will be stopped from doing so, and UK citizens will be free to live and work in the EU too. I think that concession will be a given with so much trade to lose with the bloc if an agreement can't be reached.


If net immigration stays at the levels it's at, there will be enormous pressure to introduce restrictions. They would hurt the economy, but I can see the Tories in particular not having much of an argument against them. The Tories came to power in 2010 on the back of big rhetoric about Labour immigration. Since then, net immigration has increased, of course, as it was always likely to, and the Tories have been unable to do anything about it. Outside the EU there will be no such restrictions on action. Lots of 'British jobs for British people' rhetoric, plus demands from a newly energised UKIP to act. There will also be pressure not to treat every EU country as equal - Belgians won't be kicked out/kept out, but Bulgarians or Romanians might. It could be a very grim period.

ETA: Fuck it, no 'could be' about it. An exit from the EU on the back of nasty anti-immigrant arguments _will_ lead to a very grim period.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 29, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If net immigration stays at the levels it's at, there will be enormous pressure to introduce restrictions. They would hurt the economy, but I can see the Tories in particular not having much of an argument against them. The Tories came to power in 2010 on the back of big rhetoric about Labour immigration. Since then, net immigration has increased, of course, as it was always likely to, and the Tories have been unable to do anything about it. Outside the EU there will be no such restrictions on action. Lots of 'British jobs for British people' rhetoric, plus demands from a newly energised UKIP to act. There will also be pressure not to treat every EU country as equal - Belgians won't be kicked out/kept out, but Bulgarians or Romanians might. It could be a very grim period.
> 
> ETA: Fuck it, no 'could be' about it. An exit from the EU on the back of nasty anti-immigrant arguments _will_ lead to a very grim period.



I hear you. Everyone should be concerned. But if the EU stands for anything, then it should defend the rights of the bloc as a whole in negotiating a free movement agreement for all it's people. Whether Bulgarian or Belgian.

There are thousands of Bulgarians here with families and jobs paying taxes, as is their right. Those rights, as well as everyone else's right to a family life should be protected under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights if nothing else. A law which is currently being used to challenge the government's unlawful position on minimum salary requirements in order to bring a non-EU spouse of a UK citizen to the UK.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 29, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Sooner or later the 'In' campaign will realise they have to offer people something to vote for rather than against.  The kipper types (who form the majority but not all of the out campaign) have a lot of well-motivated and vocal supporters, and are mostly of the demographic that is more likely to vote.  I think building support for the 'In' campaign is harder, particularly as the liberal and soft-left types more likely to support this won't feel as enthusiastic rallying to Cameron's flag.
> 
> What are the betting markets saying?  I know some people on here follow that stuff (gambling sites blocked at work so no can't check myself)



Paddy Power have Remain @ 4/11 and Exit @ 2/1

EU Membership Referendum - UK Politics Betting from Paddy Power


----------



## brogdale (Feb 29, 2016)

From John Curtiss' "What UK thinks?" piece titled "_Is David Cameron now the leader of the opposition?"_
_



			Of the six polling companies in question, five of them also polled – using the same method – in the fortnight or so before a draft of the eventual deal was published on 1 February. At that time those five polls (four of them conducted over the internet and one by phone) on average put Remain on 52.5% (once Don’t Knows are left aside) and Leave on 47.5%.

The equivalent figures for those five polls during the last week have been Remain 51%, Leave 49%. *In other words, if anything, support for Remain appears to be slightly weaker now than it was before the details of the renegotiation first became public knowledge.*

Click to expand...

_​


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 29, 2016)

Project Fear™


----------



## stupid kid (Feb 29, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Maybe this has already been said (it's a long thread) but there are maybe 2m Brits living and working in the EU? And they will get the vote if they have been gone less than 15 years, it it is a close run referendum, the turnout amongst the ex pats might be crucial - they have a lot to lose if we do Brexit.


Yep. Ex pat in USA here, my biggest concern is potential loss of free movement within the EU. That said, I don't know if I'll vote, I think the UK government still think I live at my mum's old house and god only knows how much debt I left behind.


----------



## stupid kid (Feb 29, 2016)

brogdale said:


> From John Curtiss' "What UK thinks?" piece titled "_Is David Cameron now the leader of the opposition?"_
> ​


I think that's a bad sign for the leaves. Obviously it's still all to play for but that's not much of a bump for them considering how triumphalistic Gove et all looked holding their stupid banner.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 29, 2016)

stupid kid said:


> I think that's a bad sign for the leaves. Obviously it's still all to play for but that's not much of a bump for them considering how triumphalistic Gove et all looked holding their stupid banner.


I doubt this will be about polling 'bumps' more likely trends.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 29, 2016)

Smangus said:


> If the vote is to stay the Tories will implode.


If you want to the damage the Tories then you are far better voting leave then remain.

If remain wins by a decent margin (say 65/35) then Cameron and Osbourne have been vindicated, sure there'll be some angry backbenchers, some defections to UKIP from councillors/members, but the eurosceptics in the party have got little room to manoeuvre. 

If you have a result similar to the Scottish Ref, with remain winning but a considerable body of support for leave (55/45) then the Tories have far more problems. Rather than settling the issue the referendum has brought it to the fore and the present leadership is damaged.

If leave gets a narrow win then the Tories have a huge problem, with the parties leadership and financial backers totally opposed to what a large proportion of the membership wants and to the public vote. There would be major chaos in the party, Cameron would have to go, despite what he's said the leave's in the Tories aren't going to want the rewriting of treaties down by someone who led remain.


----------



## gosub (Feb 29, 2016)

marty21 said:


> It is win win , whatever the result , the Tories will go to war


oops wrong thread


----------



## teqniq (Feb 29, 2016)

The only path I would like to see smoothed for Osborne is to the scaffold.


----------



## gosub (Feb 29, 2016)

teqniq said:


> The only path I would like to see smoothed for Osborne is to the scaffold.


moved it to ruthless tory stupidity,  seemed a better fit


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2016)

Parliament tv will now be streaming Head of Civil Service v PA&CA select committee Parliamentlive.tv 4:15

some fun to be had with the a civil service Q&A document it would appear...	Ahead of PMQ's  on Wednesday



In reality though:eventually ends up about ends up semantic debate about the meaning of  'impartiality' and 'honourable.'   
Future of the country v (ministers salary.)*6	Interesting week.


----------



## newbie (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Project Fear™


indeed.  At the moment that's only really being countered by Project Ridicule.  At some point I'd like to think the Out side will start putting forward positive arguments of their own, particularly 'progressive' ones.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> indeed.  At the moment that's only really being countered by Project Ridicule.  At some point I'd like to think the Out side will start putting forward positive arguments of their own, particularly 'progressive' ones.



That was a reference to the latest crap that's being played out inside the Tories from both the in and out camp.

David Cameron says his EU campaign is Project Fact, not Project Fear


----------



## newbie (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> That was a reference to the latest crap that's being played out inside the Tories from both the in and out camp.
> 
> David Cameron says his EU campaign is Project Fact, not Project Fear


yes I know. Johnson appears to have called what Cameron said baloney and I'm agreeing.  

Trouble is every point made about what could happen post-Brexit is ridiculed as being simply part of Project Fear.  Not only within the tory party but in the wider debate, including here. 

Which is all very well, and to some extent perfectly true but we're going to have 4 months of this stuff.  If they want to convince doubters the Out side will have to move beyond ridiculing perfectly natural concerns about something unknown that will affect us for a big chunk of the rest of our lives.


----------



## newbie (Mar 1, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> If you want to the damage the Tories then you are far better voting leave then remain.
> 
> If remain wins by a decent margin (say 65/35) then Cameron and Osbourne have been vindicated, sure there'll be some angry backbenchers, some defections to UKIP from councillors/members, but the eurosceptics in the party have got little room to manoeuvre.
> 
> ...


Having said that about Project Ridicule I'll say that while I accept what's written here, it's very short-term.  The next few months.  What happens if Cameron is deposed, which tory on the Out side would become PM between 2016 and 2020, who would be chancellor or home secretary?  What policies would they inflict on us?  Of course there's fear involved in that.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> indeed.  At the moment that's only really being countered by Project Ridicule.  At some point I'd like to think the Out side will start putting forward positive arguments of their own, particularly 'progressive' ones.


'Progressive' in the sense that they'll say an 'independent' UK _might _occasionally elect an administration holding vaguely social democratic beliefs that attempts to decelerate the drive towards post-democracy neo-liberalism?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 1, 2016)

Mandelson speaking for a pro-EU position, bet the remain camp are glad of that input.


> Any idiot can start a trade agreement. The question is where does it end up? You can deal with tariffs relatively easily. What is much harder to deal with are the behind-the-border regulatory barriers. And the more you want to reduce both border tariff barriers and regulatory barriers, the longer and more complex it is, and the harder the negotiation is. And that is why on average a free trade agreement takes between four and seven years, sometimes much longer, to negotiate.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

This was one of the pieces last year that started to really push me towards the 'out' - from the author John King:
The left wing case for leaving the EU

But of course you're not going to see those arguments in most of our media and press are you? Well, the closest is the Morning Star and pieces like this:
EU membership bars socialism

And a reasonable one again today from John Haylett:
No time to entrust Britain’s future to a bureaucratic finance-capital cabal

It seems to me that the 'wider debate' is pretty poor liberal positioning so I'm not really going to invest much into it - that anyone 'out' is being sympathetic to UKIP or the Tories and whatever anti-immigrant or anti-rights rhetoric can be applied. So, therefore the only 'right option' (said in that usual patronising liberal tone) option is to remain 'in' as at least we know where we stand. Given that 'out' also includes socialists, trade unionists and anti-capitalists, most of the 'progressive' arguments for 'in' I've seen don't amount to any pro-socialist, pro-worker ones and seem to really hinge on the neo-liberal status quo with a bit of 'fear' thrown in.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

Still, at least Corbyn has ruled out sharing a platform with Cameron.

Jeremy Corbyn 'not on same side' as David Cameron in EU debate



			
				Grinuad said:
			
		

> Jeremy Corbyn has drawn a deeper dividing line with David Cameron over Europe, highlighting the leave campaign’s claims that the UK’s deal with Brussels may not be legally binding.
> 
> The Labour leader, who supports staying in the EU, categorically ruled out sharing a platform with the prime minister as he seeks to make a completely separate argument against Brexit. He stressed he is “not on the same side of the argument” as Cameron despite both fighting for the remain campaign to win.
> 
> ...


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Still, at least Corbyn has ruled out sharing a platform with Cameron.
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn 'not on same side' as David Cameron in EU debate


Attempting to avoid "Red Tory II"?


----------



## newbie (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> 'Progressive' in the sense that they'll say an 'independent' UK _might _occasionally elect an administration holding vaguely social democratic beliefs that attempts to decelerate the drive towards post-democracy neo-liberalism?


that's a bit convoluted, but it seems to be at least part of the central plank of the left Out position. Is it unfair to characterise it as project Wishful Thinking?  I don't (yet) know.  I'll read the sources stethoscope has quoted when I have time and come back.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> that's a bit convoluted, but it seems to be at least part of the central plank of the left Out position. Is it unfair to characterise it as project Wishful Thinking?  I don't (yet) know.  I'll read the sources stethoscope has quoted when I have time and come back.


Convoluted?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

I'd say it was reasonably clear and simple, not convoluted. Staying in means we're locked into EU neo-liberalism (which is getting less democratic and protectionist of rights as it increasingly drives an austerity agenda), whilst out might just give some sort of opportunity (however small that might be I accept) of pushing things more to the left occasionally. That's very much the argument from one of the Morning Star pieces above.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'd say it was reasonably clear and simple, not convoluted. Staying in means we're locked into EU neo-liberalism (which is getting less democratic and protectionist of rights as it increasingly drives an austerity agenda), whilst out might just give some sort of opportunity (however small that might be I accept) of pushing things more to the left occasionally. That's very much the argument from one of the Morning Star pieces above.


Yes.
The challenge of attempting to promote a 'progressive' Leave agenda lies partly in the fact that the argument is essentially one that must highlight the negative liberalisation impacts of the supra-state, and partly on some fairly wishful thinking regarding the potential of our own representative democracy to offer any resistance to further liberalisation.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Still, at least Corbyn has ruled out sharing a platform with Cameron.
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn 'not on same side' as David Cameron in EU debate



Given what happened to Labour over the Scottish referendum, he's probably wise to distance himself from the tories.


----------



## newbie (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Yes.
> The challenge of attempting to promote a 'progressive' Leave agenda lies partly in the fact that the argument is essentially one that must highlight the negative liberalisation impacts of the supra-state, and partly on some fairly wishful thinking regarding the potential of our own representative democracy to offer any resistance to further liberalisation.


it was only the wording I thought convoluted, stethoscope put it more clearly.  Both of you seem to agree that the potential is small.  I'd ask what the prize is- to what extent can socialism, or even a brake on neo-liberalism, be realised in one country?

meanwhile a year or so ago there was the prospect of a European left surge, here, Greece, Spain, Portugal...  Now that's been dashed and broken by the electorates not voting the way I, at least, would have wished, but the potential was there and remains there.  Isn't an internationalist dream at least as worthwhile, and if realised wouldn't the outcome have greater possibilities?


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2016)

The Greeks voted the way you would have wished didn't they?

How did that work out?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> meanwhile a year or so ago there was the prospect of a European left surge, here, Greece, Spain, Portugal...  Now that's been dashed and broken by the electorates not voting the way I, at least, would have wished, but the potential was there and remains there.  Isn't an internationalist dream at least as worthwhile, and if realised wouldn't the outcome have greater possibilities?



Any left surge was quickly stamped on by the EU anyway - they hung the likes of Greece out to dry. Greece tried to negotiate it's own alternative deal to austerity and the EU wouldn't give any financial support unless they imposed strict fiscal austerity. Spain and Portugal's own democratic-socialist leaning governments also placed under the same pressure.

I'm all for internationalism, but not one based on neoliberalism.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> I'd ask what the prize is- to what extent can socialism, or even a brake on neo-liberalism, be realised in one country?


For labour the only 'prize' attainable upon Brexit is escape from a supranational federation that specifically forbids any democratic corrective intervention into market justice, into an situation which strengthens the (relative) power of markets to ensure the same outcome.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> For labour the only 'prize' attainable upon Brexit is escape from a supranational federation that specifically forbids any democratic corrective intervention into market justice, into an situation which strengthens the (relative) power of markets to ensure the same outcome.


If the UK ever gets a govt that would seek to follow corrective intervention measures that are forbidden by EU rules, that would be a time to challenge said rules, no? The EU isn't just one thing - it contains elements that pressure against capitalist orthodoxies, too. And there have been numerous examples of EU countries breaking EU rules without sanction - both France and Germany have done it. You take to the EU that you have a democratic mandate to do this - so they'd better allow it or else. 

Taking one example: rail renationalisation - so many EU countries still have nationalised rail systems that they'd be in a very weak position to oppose it happening in the UK even if it were against the rules. The argument would be a simple and powerful one - we have a democratic mandate to do it, and we're only trying to get what you already have.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the UK ever gets a govt that would seek to follow corrective intervention measures that are forbidden by EU rules, that would be a time to challenge said rules, no? The EU isn't just one thing - it contains elements that pressure against capitalist orthodoxies, too. And there have been numerous examples of EU countries breaking EU rules without sanction - both France and Germany have done it. You take to the EU that you have a democratic mandate to do this - so they'd better allow it or else.
> 
> Taking one example: rail renationalisation - so many EU countries still have nationalised rail systems that they'd be in a very weak position to oppose it happening in the UK even if it were against the rules. The argument would be a simple and powerful one - we have a democratic mandate to do it, and we're only trying to get what you already have.


yeh like the democratic mandate the greek government had after that referendum


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh like the democratic mandate the greek government had after that referendum


The UK's not in the euro. Not excusing what happened to Greece, but the situation isn't comparable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The UK's not in the euro. Not excusing what happened to Greece, but the situation isn't comparable.


it's comparable but perhaps not equivalent: and it's not as though that's the only referendum whose result has been ignored by the eu, is it.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the UK ever gets a govt that would seek to follow corrective intervention measures that are forbidden by EU rules, that would be a time to challenge said rules, no? The EU isn't just one thing - it contains elements that pressure against capitalist orthodoxies, too. And there have been numerous examples of EU countries breaking EU rules without sanction - both France and Germany have done it. You take to the EU that you have a democratic mandate to do this - so they'd better allow it or else.
> 
> Taking one example: rail renationalisation - so many EU countries still have nationalised rail systems that they'd be in a very weak position to oppose it happening in the UK even if it were against the rules. The argument would be a simple and powerful one - we have a democratic mandate to do it, and we're only trying to get what you already have.


I'm reading that as an argument for remain, based upon the notion of 'left' national governments challenging the EU from within?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm reading that as an argument for remain, based upon the notion of 'left' national governments challenging the EU from within?


I'm not arguing either for or against really. It is an argument against the idea that EU capitalist rules can't be challenged/flouted. If you're in a strong enough position with enough leverage, you can brazenly break EU rules without sanction. Both France and Germany have shown this. 

If your economy's fucked and you are seeking a financial bailout, your democracy counts for naught. But then that's true whether you're in the EU or not - just ask the myriad countries across the world forced into privatisation/cuts by the IMF.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not arguing either for or against really. It is an argument against the idea that EU capitalist rules can't be challenged/flouted. If you're in a strong enough position with enough leverage, you can brazenly break EU rules without sanction. Both France and Germany have shown this.
> 
> If your economy's fucked and you are seeking a financial bailout, your democracy counts for naught. But then that's true whether you're in the EU or not - just ask the myriad countries across the world forced into privatisation/cuts by the IMF.


Either in or out the state will only have the freedom afforded by the markets. Within the EU the Hayekian superstate will prevent socialist correctives, but outside the sovereign bond-holders have that power directly. That's why I find it difficult to see why folk take such firmly held positions on the in/out. IMO those arguing leave from a progressive perspective are in danger of some degree of delusion.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Either in or out the state will only have the freedom afforded by the markets. Within the EU the Hayekian superstate will prevent socialist correctives, but outside the sovereign bond-holders have that power directly. That's why I find it difficult to see why folk take such firmly held positions on the in/out. IMO those arguing leave from a progressive perspective are in danger of some degree of delusion.


Yes, whether in or out of the EU, those seeking socialist solutions are in danger of being punished for it by international forces. We have lots of examples.


----------



## laptop (Mar 1, 2016)

Not to claim that the EU did well by Greece, obvs.

But what happened was that it (the Council, strictly) failed to tell *the IMF* to fuck off.


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2016)

laptop said:


> Not to claim that the EU did well by Greece, obvs.
> 
> But what happened was that it (the Council, strictly) failed to tell *the IMF* to fuck off.


It was Yank pressure on the IMF that got the IMF to admit they thought debt need writing off (not the debt to the IMF obviously.)   That was about the only positive from the whole debacle.  I remember the EUro was supposed to end US hegemony


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

laptop said:


> Not to claim that the EU did well by Greece, obvs.
> 
> But what happened was that it (the Council, strictly) failed to tell *the IMF* to fuck off.


Why would it? They are parts of the same process.


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the UK ever gets a govt that would seek to follow corrective intervention measures that are forbidden by EU rules, that would be a time to challenge said rules, no? The EU isn't just one thing - it contains elements that pressure against capitalist orthodoxies, too. And there have been numerous examples of EU countries breaking EU rules without sanction - both France and Germany have done it. You take to the EU that you have a democratic mandate to do this - so they'd better allow it or else.
> *
> Taking one example: rail renationalisation *- so many EU countries still have nationalised rail systems that they'd be in a very weak position to oppose it happening in the UK even if it were against the rules. The argument would be a simple and powerful one - we have a democratic mandate to do it, and we're only trying to get what you already have.



ASLEF and the RMT are backing leave.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't think leaving the EU (whatever that actually means) will lead to socialism, or even social-democracy, in one country. Nor am I voting to leave because the EU is an anti-democratic, neo-liberal institution (though it is despite what liberals say). For me it's simpler than that - capital want's the UK to remain in the EU and I want to hurt capital.

I'm not so naive to think that labour will suddenly and _necessarily_ make significant gains from a leave vote, but I do think a leave vote hurts capital, I think it hurts the government, the Tories and the EU. And I think those cracks open up _possibilities_, whether those possibilities can be exploited to yield gains depends (as ever) on working-class insurgency. I don't believe a leave vote will change the world but I think it gives more opportunities than a stay vote.

------

I'd also note that I think that for remain to win by a large margin would be a boost to the government, a close vote at least provides some opportunity for government infighting and thus (as remain has a small to moderate lead) there's something to be said for a tactical _leave_ vote


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

gosub said:


> ASLEF and the RMT are backing leave.


There are arguments both ways, I think. And both sides of the argument involve a fair bit of guesswork and hopeful thinking. 

My gut reaction is 'fuck you, neither of the above'.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are arguments both ways, I think. And both sides of the argument involve a fair bit of guesswork and hopeful thinking.
> 
> My gut reaction is '*fuck you, neither of the above*'.


Almost certainly close to what I will scrawl on the ballot paper...if I bother going.


----------



## newbie (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Any left surge was quickly stamped on by the EU anyway - they hung the likes of Greece out to dry. Greece tried to negotiate it's own alternative deal to austerity and the EU wouldn't give any financial support unless they imposed strict fiscal austerity. Spain and Portugal's own democratic-socialist leaning governments also placed under the same pressure.
> 
> I'm all for internationalism, but not one based on neoliberalism.



Both sides of the negotiation knew full well that membership of the Euro was more popular in Greece than the government the Greeks had elected.  That enabled Eurozone governments to play hardball knowing the other side had effectively nothing to bargain with.  Ultimately the Greek people reluctantly acquiesced to austerity in order to stay members.  

What aspects of internationalism are bolstered, how is the balance of forces changed, if the UK withdraws from the EU? How is international neoliberalism challenged or weakened?


----------



## marty21 (Mar 1, 2016)

I'm a Bremainer   do we really want the Kippers to win ? The Farage to win  

Srsly,  I remember when we had the last referendum (I was 10 ) and I was excited about being part of Europe. It doesn't excite me now tbf , and I know it is a flawed project , but I will still vote to stay.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> What aspects of internationalism are bolstered, how is the balance of forces changed, if the UK withdraws from the EU? How is international neoliberalism challenged or weakened?



I wasn't really making that an argument for out tbh. Just stating that internationalism based on neo-liberalism/capital isn't something that's pro-socialist/pro-worker. That said, if, for example, countries like Greece had come out of the EU/euro, and others did too, it might be more possible than trying to change the EU from within. It might not tbh. I'm not professing to have _the answers_, just that as it stands, I feel that coming out might give an opportunity to hurt the Tories/see the UKIP implode as I maintain they're a one trick pony in this debate (yes, I realise they'll still be some sort of party of anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK)/offer some possibilities to the neo-liberal/austerity path of the EU.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

marty21 said:


> I'm a Bremainer   do we really want the Kippers to win ? The Farage to win



It doesn't. Falling towards 'out' doesn't have to equate to a 'win for UKIP/Farage' as such (though, that might be wishful thinking of me). If anything, whilst we stay 'in', UKIP/Farage will always be a force that UK politics has to deal with as they continue to fight for exiting whilst they ramp up anti-European/immigrant feeling at the same time. I think they're a one-trick pony and if an 'out' was achieved, despite the rest of their 'manifesto', they'd not really last long after an 'out' and fall apart (they're not even united anyway apart from wanting exit). And a narrow 'out' would cause some serious problems for the Tories too I think.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

marty21 said:


> I'm a Bremainer   do we really want the Kippers to win ? The Farage to win
> 
> Srsly,  I remember when we had the last referendum (I was 10 ) and I was excited about being part of Europe. It doesn't excite me now tbf , and I know it is a flawed project , but I will still vote to stay.


I won't vote to leave. It empowers too many cunts - 4 years of the eurosceptic wing of the Tory party governing until the next election as the UK negotiates its way out? We'll be in a terrible state by the end of that. I can't vote for that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It doesn't. Falling towards 'out' doesn't automatically equate to a 'win for UKIP/Farage' as such (though, that might be wishful thinking of me). If anything, whilst we stay 'in', UKIP/Farage will always be a force that UK politics has to deal with as they continue to fight for exiting whilst they ramp up anti-European/immigrant feeling at the same time. I think they're a one-trick pony and if an 'out' was achieved, despite the rest of their 'manifesto', they'd not really last long after an 'out' and fall apart (they're not even united anyway apart from wanting exit).


I think that is wishful thinking. UKIP would be fully energised to push their anti-immigration agenda, using the referendum result as justification.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think that is wishful thinking. UKIP would be fully energised to push their anti-immigration agenda, using the referendum result as justification.



How though? If an 'out' happens, they've still got to get more MPs elected into parliament. The cracks are already showing between Carswell and Farage. I think they'll be spent at that point - especially if 'out' Tories start to feature in the Tories more prominently, force a Tory leadership shift.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

Probably unhelpful to frame this in terms of individuals or even individual parties.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

I'd welcome your observations/thoughts on this @brogdale as to how an 'out' might go, as you're more clued up than I and I always find your posts very informative (I know you've said you're likely to not vote at all - don't think much of either in or out?)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are arguments both ways, I think. And both sides of the argument involve a fair bit of guesswork and hopeful thinking.
> 
> My gut reaction is 'fuck you, neither of the above'.


i hope that fence is comfy


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> This was one of the pieces last year that started to really push me towards the 'out' - from the author John King:
> The left wing case for leaving the EU



Is that the Football Factory bloke?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'd welcome your observations/thoughts on this brogdale as how an 'out' might go, as you're more clued up than I (I know you've said you're likely to not vote at all).


i vote leap into the great unknown


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Is that the Football Factory bloke?



It is.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'd welcome your observations/thoughts on this @brogdale as to how an 'out' might go, as you're more clued up than I and I always find your posts very informative (I know you've said you're likely to not vote at all - don't think much of either in or out?)


You mean the likely impact on domestic UK politics?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i vote leap into the great unknown


Unknown it what sense?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Unknown it what sense?


no one knows where things will land


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You mean the likely impact on domestic UK politics?



Yes - for pro-socialist and pursuing anti-neoliberal opportunities, what would happen with UKIP, Tories and possible internal infighting, etc?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no one knows where things will land


Does anyone know that if we remain?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Does anyone know that if we remain?


if we stay or go then tory party smashed; if we stay, labour party big domestic winner; if we go labour joins tories in dustbin of history.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Yes - for pro-socialist and pursuing anti-neoliberal opportunities, what would happen with UKIP, Tories and possible internal infighting, etc?


I think UKIP, in some form or other, will remain like a bad smell and find continuing excuses for their existence, even if the electorate votes to leave. The parliamentary vermin party will face major challenges with either result, but will basically hold together because they are the party of financialised capital in the final analysis. 
As to anti-neoliberal potential I'd say that the leave option is, on balance, the most promising. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the only way in which a government might place itself in a position to challenge neo-liberal hegemony is to remove the need to borrow on the bond markets. Massively wishful thinking, though.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 1, 2016)

Historically, one of the favourite narratives in the rise of far right and reactionary forces has been that of " betrayal" - either from peace treaties, renegotiations or settlements.  Of course, the right/ far right will have a full on version of this narrative if they "win" Brexit as the Tory Eurosceptics oust Cameron and then engage in the tortuous negotiation of "independent" UK over years - likely in a fraught and crisis ridden international setting. Similarly, if they lose the blame will again be laid on the establishment Eurosceptics in a fight to re-align the right along the lines we see in France and some Eastern European states. So I don't see a "chastened" UKIP or far right whatever the result - the result will fuel their USP - grievance.  The question is, can the left get a hearing for an alternative narrative?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> It is.




Speaks a lot of wisdom from the working class POV.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 1, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> This was one of the pieces last year that started to really push me towards the 'out' - from the author John King:
> The left wing case for leaving the EU



Just about sums it up for, & an easy read. We have to get out to give us any chance of fighting back.


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are arguments both ways, I think. And both sides of the argument involve a fair bit of guesswork and hopeful thinking.
> 
> My gut reaction is 'fuck you, neither of the above'.



And yet both rail unions have declared for Leave and Easyjet pointed to the breakup of national monopolies as a reason to remain.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 1, 2016)

gosub said:


> And yet both rail unions have declared for Leave and Easyjet pointed to the breakup of national monopolies as a reason to remain.



Isn't that quite simple though? Rail unions ain't neolib multi billion companies, yet Sleazyjet is?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Just about sums it up for, & an easy read. We have to get out to give us any chance of fighting back.



Yep. Was headed that way, he's firmed me right up. OUT please.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 1, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep. Was headed that way, he's firmed me right up. OUT please.



It's not been easy, & I've been sat on the fence for a while, lots read though. Like you said, from a w/c pov, i'm out.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 1, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Just about sums it up for, & an easy read. We have to get out to give us any chance of fighting back.



What are your plans for fighting back if the UK leaves the EU?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 1, 2016)

Unlike you, I've read every post on this thread.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 1, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Unlike you, I've read every post on this thread.



So it's going to be some kind of internet-based fight back, centred around the U75 P&P forum? I see.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 1, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> So it's going to be some kind of internet-based fight back, centred around the U75 P&P forum? I see.



Are you pissed?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 1, 2016)

I love the way that anyone considering 'out' is expected to have a fully detailed plan for fighting back on pro-socialist, pro-working class grounds, yet I'm not seeing many of the 'in' talking about fighting pro-socialist, pro-working class positions at all within the EU, let alone being expected to have a detailed plan.

Besides, it would be nice if those jumping in could actually read the thread.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 1, 2016)

We're all too familiar with the modus operandi of goldenarse.


----------



## andysays (Mar 1, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ...Taking one example: rail renationalisation - so many EU countries still have nationalised rail systems that they'd be in a very weak position to oppose it happening in the UK even if it were against the rules. The argument would be a simple and powerful one - we have a democratic mandate to do it, and we're only trying to get what you already have.



The important distinction which you seem unaware of is that these countries already had nationalised rail systems when the rules (which prohibit further nationalisation) were brought in, so they didn't/don't apply to them, but they certainly would apply to any EU government wishing to nationalise or renationalise something which was currently in private ownership, as railways are in Britain.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 1, 2016)

from tweeter


----------



## brogdale (Mar 1, 2016)

ICYMI...I thought that some people in and around this discussion might be interested in this NS piece by Brendan Simms and Timothy Less from last November. Interesting to note what of their 'signals' have come/are coming to pass already...

A crisis without end


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 1, 2016)

andysays said:


> The important distinction which you seem unaware of is that these countries already had nationalised rail systems when the rules (which prohibit further nationalisation) were brought in, so they didn't/don't apply to them, but they certainly would apply to any EU government wishing to nationalise or renationalise something which was currently in private ownership, as railways are in Britain.


I'm not unaware of that.


----------



## gosub (Mar 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ICYMI...I thought that some people in and around this discussion might be interested in this NS piece by Brendan Simms and Timothy Less from last November. Interesting to note what of their 'signals' have come/are coming to pass already...
> 
> A crisis without end



It certainly explains why Mr Cameron's attempt at reform of EU in the end returned with little if anything.  Its an argument for treading carefully certainly.


----------



## andysays (Mar 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not unaware of that.



So if you are aware of it, I wonder why you have effectively misrepresented the situation by claiming that Britain would be able to ignore/break the rules on new nationalisation by making out that other countries have already done so when they clearly haven't.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> So if you are aware of it, I wonder why you have effectively misrepresented the situation by claiming that Britain would be able to ignore/break the rules on new nationalisation by making out that other countries have already done so when they clearly haven't.


I didn't.


----------



## andysays (Mar 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I didn't.



So you've decided to adopt disingenuous bullshit as an approach again. I'm sure that will be as effective as usual at persuading others to adopt your position


----------



## killer b (Mar 2, 2016)

I'm sure you look very clever in your own head.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ICYMI...I thought that some people in and around this discussion might be interested in this NS piece by Brendan Simms and Timothy Less from last November. Interesting to note what of their 'signals' have come/are coming to pass already...
> 
> A crisis without end



Very interesting reading indeed.  Whilst it paints a pretty bleak picture it is also pretty easy to accept it as a realistic outcome.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> So you've decided to adopt disingenuous bullshit as an approach again. I'm sure that will be as effective as usual at persuading others to adopt your position


No. You just haven't understood what I was saying.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> ignore/break the rules on new nationalisation



Can you point me to these rules? Thanks.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 2, 2016)

I'm wondering how they equate leave with protecting the NHS, I found this:

EU judges have too much control over our NHS

The only other think that springs to mind is TTIP, but even if we actually left I could foresee a bunch of neoliberlaralist chancers that are in charge at the time negotiating a UK entry into the deal.

Anyone else?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 2, 2016)

David Cameron accused of releasing 'dodgy dossier' in support of EU membership



> ...Iain Duncan Smith, the Work and Pensions Secretary, criticised the report’s approach – arguing that it was misleading....


Oh the irony.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I'm wondering how they equate leave with protecting the NHS, I found this:
> 
> EU judges have too much control over our NHS
> 
> ...



Well that's simply rubbish, isn't it. On a par with banning the British Banger.


----------



## paolo (Mar 2, 2016)

2hats said:


> Can you point me to these rules? Thanks.



andysays 

I'd like to read more about these rules too. Am curious to know why they've not applied to our own state run franchises, or the UK franchises run by other state companies.


----------



## andysays (Mar 2, 2016)

2hats said:


> Can you point me to these rules? Thanks.





paolo said:


> andysays
> 
> I'd like to read more about these rules too. Am curious to know why they've not applied to our own state run franchises, or the UK franchises run by other state companies.



Links have been provided on this and other threads many times, most recently by butchersapron. I suggest you both have a look through the previous few pages.

And to reiterate, they don't apply to existing nationalised industries or private franchises run by other state companies, they apply specifically to *new nationalisation of industries currently in private hands*, like railways in Britain.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 2, 2016)

The 'Project Fear' stuff is interesting - UKIP are banging on about 'presenting the facts' and how Cameron is just scaremongering about what could happen in a post Brexit Britain. And yet The Farage has said that if we stay - we'll get loads of terrorists killing us and sex pests raping us (he didn't exactly say that but sort of ) which is scaremongering as well.

The truth is no one really knows - We may be able to sign decent trade agreements with the EU, America, China, we may not be able to. We may have to accept open borders as part of a EU trade agreement, we may not. We may lose 3 m jobs if we leave, we may not. Immigration might become more of an issue, it might not. We might get more terrorists killing us, we might not, we might get sex pest immigrants raping us, we might not.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2016)

It's not correct to state this as a black/white thing. There are EU rules in place, but there is wriggle-room built into them. 
For instance:



> EU law explicitly protects the right of member states to nationalise industries. Art. 345 TFEU states “The Treaties shall in no way prejudice the rules in Member States (MS) governing the system of property ownership.”
> 
> ...
> 
> Art. 345 remains in the treaty. It is possible to generally promote liberal markets and operate some industries as national monopolies. Arts. 176 and 345 are not mutually exclusive. The ECJ has often been tolerant of member states accused of violating the treaties if their actions are “proportionate“, i.e. for a legitimate aim (which would include one endorsed by the electorate) and effective, but not excessive, in achieving that aim. Assuming that nationalisation was prominent in Mr Corbyn’s manifesto, conducted on a transparent timetable and proper compensation was paid, Mr Corbyn would have a strong case based on Art. 345.



From here. Lots of subjective judgements in there, and scope for rules to be interpreted according to the political realities of the day. Layers of rules and laws that can take precedence or not depending on the conclusion the judges want to arrive at.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2016)

marty21 said:


> The 'Project Fear' stuff is interesting - UKIP are banging on about 'presenting the facts' and how Cameron is just scaremongering about what could happen in a post Brexit Britain. And yet The Farage has said that if we stay - we'll get loads of terrorists killing us and sex pests raping us (he didn't exactly say that but sort of ) which is scaremongering as well.
> 
> The truth is no one really knows - We may be able to sign decent trade agreements with the EU, America, China, we may not be able to. We may have to accept open borders as part of a EU trade agreement, we may not. We may lose 3 m jobs if we leave, we may not. Immigration might become more of an issue, it might not. We might get more terrorists killing us, we might not, we might get sex pest immigrants raping us, we might not.


Depressingly reminiscent of the bullshit from both sides in the Scottish Ref debates.


----------



## andysays (Mar 2, 2016)

2hats paolo

Apologies, the quote/links I was thinking of were in another thread.

Try this Article 126 and this


butchersapron said:


> Key text here is The Constitutional Protection of Capitalism by Danny Nichol (not Dandy Nichols - how i wish it were) - where he argues article 106 effectively does this.



Shakes fist at people starting multiple threads on the same subject...


----------



## gosub (Mar 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Depressingly reminiscent of the bullshit from both sides in the Scottish Ref debates.



I'm finding the criticisms both sides are making of their opponents case, more honest than either sides actual case.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 2, 2016)

andysays said:


> 2hats paolo
> Try this Article 126 and this



Rather full of conditionals and hypotheticals.


andysays said:


> disingenuous bullshit



There certainly seems to be plenty of that around surrounding this debate.

Clearly the RBS and the east coast mainline re-nationalisations must have been some bizarre dream I once had.

EU legislation acts to curb some monopolies (it can't prevent all; there are inevitably 'natural' monopolies in some fields, such as those imposed by the economics/practicalities of geography). It doesn't ban (re-)nationalisation as pointed out by the reference to Article 345 above. Member states can create and operate nationalised infrastructure if they so wish (and have done so, do so). It is also perfectly possible to create nationalised infrastructures with options for private concerns to offer services over such in parallel to nationalised offerings (as many member states have done).

So to claim EU membership necessarily precludes (re-)nationalisation smacks of "bullshit" to me.

e2a: an expert in EU state aid law has just informed me that the principle is that nationalised entities 'behave in the market like private stakeholders'. The creation/operation of nationalised entities is not forbidden.


----------



## paolo (Mar 2, 2016)

andysays littlebabyjesus Thanks for the info.

With regards to rail specifically, I've done a bit of research. From what I can tell, the key thing is the 'Fourth Railway Package' - which will be the basis for some new EU legislation.

Amongst other things, it requires that by 2020 all public service contracts for rail operation are open to tender. It doesn't mention or exclude the possibility of a state rail operator tendering to run a public service contract. It does however say that the direct granting (i.e. no tendering) of a contract to a state operator would only be allowed "in exceptional circumstances" - so a blanket renationalisation of rail operators would fall foul of that.

(I wonder if Corbyn was aware of that when he set out his rail renationalisation stall, and if so, perhaps why he was non committal on EU membership).

Ministers agree on political pillar of Fourth Railway Package


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2016)

paolo said:


> andysays littlebabyjesus Thanks for the info.
> 
> With regards to rail specifically, I've done a bit of research. From what I can tell, the key thing is the 'Fourth Railway Package' - which will be the basis for some new EU legislation.
> 
> ...


I wonder which countries within the EU have been pushing most energetically for this new legislation? I'll be very very surprised if the UK isn't prominent among them.

And even here, there is wriggle-room.



> The Council has agreed that competitive tendering should be the main way of awarding public service contracts. However, direct awards without tendering would be possible ‘if justified by the structure and geographical characteristics of the market and network and if it would improve the quality of services and/or cost-efficiency.’



In other words, the national govt says it's the only way to improve quality, and so overrides the requirement. Lots of EU rules are like this - they have various get-out clauses.

My judgement on this is that it's a red herring. The EU would not block a UK govt renationalising its railways if the UK govt declared it was in the national interest.


----------



## paolo (Mar 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I wonder which countries within the EU have been pushing most energetically for this new legislation? I'll be very very surprised if the UK isn't prominent among them.



Not sure which of the countries has been pushing most, but this letter (from Clare Perry MP, to the relevant House of Lords committee) seems to confirm your expectation.

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/...960-13-5985-13-4th-Railway-Package-021015.pdf


----------



## paolo (Mar 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In other words, the national govt says it's the only way to improve quality, and so overrides the requirement. Lots of EU rules are like this - they have various get-out clauses.



I'd imagine they'd expect the quality claim to be substantiated. Let's say the commercial operator bidding for a contract has a poor record (reliability, customer satisfaction), and the state operator has a significantly better record, then the contract could be awarded directly to the state operator, with the commercial operator disregarded no matter what financial deal they were offering.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 2, 2016)

paolo said:


> I'd imagine they'd expect the quality claim to be substantiated. Let's say the commercial operator bidding for a contract has a poor record (reliability, customer satisfaction), and the state operator has a significantly better record, then the contract could be awarded directly to the state operator, with the commercial operator disregarded no matter what financial deal they were offering.


Sure, but we're into the realm of subjectivity as well - something's wrong, whether it's quality or costs (whatever you think you can make work), so you use that as your excuse. It would require political dealings, in other words. 

Bit like Tony Blair asking if the war is legal. He isn't really asking if it's legal - he's asking for a legal argument he can use to do it anyway.


----------



## paolo (Mar 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sure, but we're into the realm of subjectivity as well - something's wrong, whether it's quality or costs (whatever you think you can make work), so you use that as your excuse. It would require political dealings, in other words.



My expectation is that it would need to be objective rather than subjective. e.g. Comparing reliability records between operators.

But that's just my expectation. How it would actually play out, I don't know.


----------



## newbie (Mar 3, 2016)

paolo said:


> Amongst other things, it requires that by 2020 all public service contracts for rail operation are open to tender.


Isn't that the key?  The state can tender but (in non-exceptional circumstances) there has to be rounds of bidding for various time limited contracts.  ie the state can't nationalise, in the old sense of the term, because there cannot be an enduring monopoly, like British Rail was for decades. 

In exceptional circumstances, including what they call market failure, of course the state has to step in to keep the trains running, but only until another round of tendering.

That's the neo-liberalism at the heart of the EU arrangements.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

EU referendum: France issues border checks warning to UK - BBC News



> France could end UK border controls in Calais and allow migrants to cross the Channel unchecked if the UK leaves the EU, France's finance minister has said.
> 
> Emmanuel Macron told the Financial Times his country could also limit access to the single market and try to tempt London's bankers to relocate.



Good, we can put the refugees up in the banker's houses. We lose the banking scum and gain some refugees. Win Win.


On the other hand, maybe our scumbag bankers may not be so keen to flock to France with the gazillion % income tax rate for the highest earners.

And the UK border in France thing is fuck all to do with the EU.

Could M. Macron be talking out of his hole by any chance?


----------



## andysays (Mar 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> Isn't that the key?  The state can tender but (in non-exceptional circumstances) there has to be rounds of bidding for various time limited contracts.  ie the state can't nationalise, in the old sense of the term, because there cannot be an enduring monopoly, like British Rail was for decades.
> 
> In exceptional circumstances, including what they call market failure, of course the state has to step in to keep the trains running, but only until another round of tendering.
> 
> That's the neo-liberalism at the heart of the EU arrangements.



Exactly, and it's worth remembering that this discussion about rail nationalisation came about because the point was being made that current EU rules specifically prevent the governments of member states from carrying out even what most of us would consider the mildest form of social-democratic reform, even if they have been given an electoral mandate to do so.

That is the real issue, IMO, and those arguing against it by saying that they could do some sorts of limited nationalisation, as long as there is public tendering and the nationalised industry is run like a private business, ie with profit rather than the public good as the primary motive, are not only missing the point, but are an indication of how deeply engrained neo-liberal thinking is, even among many who would consider themselves on the left.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU referendum: France issues border checks warning to UK - BBC News
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the thing about the soi-disant _*post-national *_class; they've consistently proven they won't go anywhere else, despite their promises to do so.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU referendum: France issues border checks warning to UK - BBC News
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah I just saw this. I think it might be another scare tactic, to put people off of voting to leave.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> EU referendum: France issues border checks warning to UK - BBC News
> 
> And the UK border in France thing is fuck all to do with the EU.
> 
> Could M. Macron be talking out of his hole by any chance?


I suspect that some wording of the agreement might refer to the EU and free movement of people, so technically I suppose that given Brexit, the French could (if they wished) annul the agreement as written?

This is the problem that 'Leave' face; if the UK does vote to leave the EU & its remaining 27 members have no interest in seeing the UK thrive and find the exit straight-forward. Their chances of continued unity would benefit from making an example of any state turning their back on the union.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 3, 2016)

andysays said:


> Exactly, and it's worth remembering that this discussion about rail nationalisation came about because the point was being made that current EU rules specifically prevent the governments of member states from carrying out even what most of us would consider the mildest form of social-democratic reform, even if they have been given an electoral mandate to do so.
> 
> That is the real issue, IMO, and those arguing against it by saying that they could do some sorts of limited nationalisation, as long as there is public tendering and the nationalised industry is run like a private business, ie with profit rather than the public good as the primary motive, are not only missing the point, but are an indication of how deeply engrained neo-liberal thinking is, even among many who would consider themselves on the left.


Who's arguing that?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> This is the problem that 'Leave' face; if the UK does vote to leave the EU & its remaining 27 members have no interest in seeing the UK thrive and find the exit straight-forward. The logic of their unity would benefit from making an example of any state turning their back on the union.



I guess that is the gamble. I'm not clever enough to know the finer points, but it seems that Germany is in the driving seat of the EU and they are the big exporter, with the UK being a big market for them. That alone would seem to swing the odds in favour of not fucking the UK off. Plus who else would take all of the wine that the French won't drink?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I guess that is the gamble. I'm not clever enough to know the finer points, but it seems that Germany is in the driving seat of the EU and they are the big exporter, with the UK being a big market for them. That alone would seem to swing the odds in favour of not fucking the UK off. Plus who else would take all of the wine that the French won't drink?


That rather depends upon how much the continuation of the union means to Germany. If Brexit potentially set in motion an unfolding of the whole edifice, then the German's might have to take the hit of trade losses to make an example of the UK. Who knows?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 3, 2016)

Read the letter German bosses at BMW sent to UK Rolls Royce workers warning them of the risks of leaving the EU


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## teuchter (Mar 3, 2016)

Can anyone provide some examples of things that the UK government have wanted to do, but been prevented from doing so by the EU?

It seems a lot of these arguments are rather hypothetical - we can argue about whether or not EU rules would prevent Britain from renationalising the railways, for example, but the fact is that no government has wanted to and it currently seems unlikely that one which proposed it would be elected. 

Taking that issue as an example, if we were in a situation where we did want to renationalise the railways and it was demonstrated that we were prevented from doing so by the EU, then that could be a strong argument for leaving. But just saying that the EU _might_ stop us doing from something we haven't even tried to do, doesn't seem a very strong argument.

As I say, what are the real world examples of the EU stopping the UK government doing something they wanted to?


----------



## magneze (Mar 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I suspect that some wording of the agreement might refer to the EU and free movement of people, so technically I suppose that given Brexit, the French could (if they wished) annul the agreement as written?
> 
> This is the problem that 'Leave' face; if the UK does vote to leave the EU & its remaining 27 members have no interest in seeing the UK thrive and find the exit straight-forward. Their chances of continued unity would benefit from making an example of any state turning their back on the union.


I'm not sure that follows. If the EU begins to fail then countries are going to want to be sure that there's an exit that works.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Who knows?



Exciting times


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Read the letter German bosses at BMW sent to UK Rolls Royce workers warning them of the risks of leaving the EU



That letter fails to address how the, by far largest customer base of Rolls Royce would react to the cars being made in Slovakia or Spain or anywhere other than Sussex. Why would he not mention that?


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## Dogsauce (Mar 3, 2016)

Potential comedy result:  Narrow win for 'in' campaign, but only carried due to votes for 'in' from Scotland, England having a majority for out.

Just imagine the pissing and moaning, the indignation in the Telegraph letters pages...


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## 2hats (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And the UK border in France thing is fuck all to do with the EU.



Though everything to do with cordial relations between countries.


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That letter fails to address how the, by far largest customer base of Rolls Royce would react to the cars being made in Slovakia or Spain or anywhere other than Sussex. Why would he not mention that?



Do you think people in the UAE, US and China are that bothered where they are made?

There's a golden opportunity here for Scotland to vacuum up businesses and talent if the UK leaves the EU and they want in...


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## DotCommunist (Mar 3, 2016)

I would have thought a part of the cachet of owning an RR is that it was made in blighty. 'oh is that a 2017 model made in slovenia? really is worth getting a reconditioned vintage model. They've never beeen the same' etc


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## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I suspect that some wording of the agreement might refer to the EU and free movement of people, so technically I suppose that given Brexit, the French could (if they wished) annul the agreement as written?
> 
> This is the problem that 'Leave' face; if the UK does vote to leave the EU & its remaining 27 members have no interest in seeing the UK thrive and find the exit straight-forward. Their chances of continued unity would benefit from making an example of any state turning their back on the union.



Its a seperate bilateral treaty with France over the checks being carried out this side of the channel.   Would be tough on the ferry operators who would be given large fines if they landed jungle residents in the UK


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

2hats said:


> Do you think people in the UAE, US and China are that bothered where they are made?




Very much so. However this is only based on what their customers say, so perhaps they are bullshitting for lolz and stuff?


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## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Read the letter German bosses at BMW sent to UK Rolls Royce workers warning them of the risks of leaving the EU



(1) "as a wholly-owned BMW Group company, it is important for all Rolls-Royce Motor Cars.... "   "We believe it's much better to be sat at the table when regulations are set and have a hand in their creation, rather than simply having to accept them."   - how would BMW not be at the regulation table?
(2) Even if we didn't go down the EFTA route, would I believe we would, certainly initially,  WTO rules cap tarrifs
(3)Even though Stuart Rose claims wages will rise if UK leave, the pound is also going to fall...making staff at UK factories more competitive in relation to their EU neighbours


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## newbie (Mar 3, 2016)

andysays said:


> Exactly, and it's worth remembering that this discussion about rail nationalisation came about because the point was being made that current EU rules specifically prevent the governments of member states from carrying out even what most of us would consider the mildest form of social-democratic reform, even if they have been given an electoral mandate to do so.
> 
> That is the real issue, IMO,


It's a real issue, certainly, but far from the only one.  If this was an ordinary Urban75 debate I'd be on your side, probably silently because others would put anything I have to say earlier, more articulately and more passionately.  

It's not though, it's a massively complicated, multi-dimensional question which will affect me and my family for the rest of our lives. Some are too young or too old to vote, and I feel I have to take them and their real, tangible, lives into account, and not let my political prejudices cloud the issues.  

And of course everybody else in Europe- I had a foreign mate on the continent ranting at me the other day about how if the UK leaves the French with their agricultural protectionism will gain strength and that will cause the whole thing to crumble within 10 years.

Simple it aint, and to pretend there is a single overriding real issue that trumps everything else isn't  convincing.

sorry, that's not really aimed at you, just what I've been thinking over the last couple of days as I read the views of those who have already made up their minds, before the debates have got going in earnest.


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## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

magneze said:


> I'm not sure that follows. If the EU begins to fail then countries are going to want to be sure that there's an exit that works.



Starting to think its more of a when rather than an if.   And the two factors causing it: EUro and large influx of people, we opted out of,so our 7% opinion wouldn't carry much weight anyway.


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## andysays (Mar 3, 2016)

newbie said:


> It's a real issue, certainly, but far from the only one.  If this was an ordinary Urban75 debate I'd be on your side, probably silently because others would put anything I have to say earlier, more articulately and more passionately.
> 
> It's not though, it's a massively complicated, multi-dimensional question which will affect me and my family for the rest of our lives. Some are too young or too old to vote, and I feel I have to take them and their real, tangible, lives into account, and not let my political prejudices cloud the issues.
> 
> ...



I agree it's not the only issue, and that there are other things that need to be thought about, discussed and weighed up to come to a decision (including the question of how much a No vote would fuck up the Tories), but for the purposes of the debate/discussion around Article 126 on this and other threads, what's important (IMO, obvs) is that it deliberately and explicitly restricts the options of any member state government to pursue even mildly social-democratic policies, even if they have a domestic democratic mandate to do so.

ETA maybe I should just have said that a few days ago and not got drawn into all the other bollocks...


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

EU referendum: French minister sparks Calais UK border row - BBC News



> The agreement between France and the UK that allows the UK to conduct border controls on the French side of the Channel is a bilateral treaty that is not connected to Britain's EU membership...
> 
> France could opt to end the border treaty any time - but the country's interior minister Bernard Cazenouve has said to do so would be "foolhardy" and cause "a humanitarian disaster".



Why would the finance minister of France contradict the minister who is actually responsible for the Treaty of Le Touquet? It's almost as if he has an agenda to peddle


----------



## kabbes (Mar 3, 2016)

Every time someone wants to place some kind of restriction on the ability of the rich to expand their advantage without limit, the same old bollocks about "But they'll all leave!!1!" turns up.  This time it's about bankers , it would seem.  Again.

But this narrative really misses the point that the _first_ thing you do if you are rich is spend that money on the ability to _live where you want to live_.

What's the point in being rich but not being able to live near your friends and family?  Not being able to bring your children up in your chosen culture?  Not having familiar rituals around you?

If somebody will spend £2m in order to live in a tiny flat in the right part of London, why wouldn't they also give up x% in order to live in the country London is situated in?

Money is about what it can buy you, not its accumulation for its own sake.  And this is why despite the appeal to panic about losing the rich (leaving aside why that would be an issue in the first place), the rich _consistently don't actually leave_.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 3, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Money is about what it can buy you, not its accumulation for its own sake.  And this is why despite the appeal to panic about losing the rich (leaving aside why that would be an issue in the first place), the rich _consistently don't actually leave_.


The rich are doing the opposite in London. They're spreading. And fucking things up for everyone else wherever they go. Please, please, please, please leave.


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## 2hats (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Very much so. However this is only based on what their customers say, so perhaps they are bullshitting for lolz and stuff?



It rather strikes me that the 'debate' on both sides is enveloped in a miasma of bullshit emanating from hypotheticals, conditionals and speculation.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

2hats said:


> It rather strikes me that the 'debate' on both sides is enveloped in a miasma of bullshit emanating from hypotheticals, conditionals and speculation.




Speculation has to be there as no one can say for certain what will happen if we leave. 

We can know for certain that some things will happen if we stay; ever closer union of a wholly undemocratic system to rule over us, being a biggie.

There is plenty of bollocks coming from both sides, the IN mob seem to be the far more hysterical, but the the Etonian pig-fucker has been doing the rounds asking people like French Finance fella to speak a load of scary woo, so it's no great shock when these dicks do just that.


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## 2hats (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> We can know for certain that some things will happen if we stay; ever closer union of a wholly undemocratic system to rule over us, being a biggie.



Sounds like a description of the out option as well to me; I've long since stopped deluding myself that I live in any sort of democracy.


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## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's not correct to state this as a black/white thing. There are EU rules in place, but there is wriggle-room built into them.
> For instance:
> 
> 
> ...


TTIP will reduce that wriggle room


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

2hats said:


> Sounds like a description of the out option as well to me; I've long since stopped deluding myself that I live in any sort of democracy.



Your voice counts for very little in the UK. It counts for nothing at all in Europe. You can't hope to vote out people that are not elected.


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> TTIP will reduce that wriggle room


Yep. And what horror of a TTIP is a tory govt likely to negotiate on its own?


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## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. And what horror of a TTIP is a tory govt likely to negotiate on its own?


What, the one thats in the middle of tearing itself apart?


----------



## teuchter (Mar 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Can anyone provide some examples of things that the UK government have wanted to do, but been prevented from doing so by the EU?
> 
> It seems a lot of these arguments are rather hypothetical - we can argue about whether or not EU rules would prevent Britain from renationalising the railways, for example, but the fact is that no government has wanted to and it currently seems unlikely that one which proposed it would be elected.
> 
> ...


Anyone? Any examples?


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## littlebabyjesus (Mar 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> What, the one thats in the middle of tearing itself apart?


Yes, that one. The one that will be in power for four years after the referendum. Under a new leader, presumably, if the vote is to leave, but what difference does that make?


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## weltweit (Mar 3, 2016)

I am primarily a single marketer and as such prefer to stay in, and the UK has more chance to make the EU into something more worthwhile if it has not already exited in a right wing sulk.


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## andysays (Mar 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. And what horror of a TTIP is a tory govt likely to negotiate on its own?



One that could possibly be revoked by a different incoming government in the future *if* we get out of the EU now, as opposed to the one which we'll effectively be locked into forever if we stay in the EU, I guess.

I agree it's not much of a chance, but staying in we have absolutely no chance whatever.


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## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, that one. The one that will be in power for four years after the referendum. Under a new leader, presumably, if the vote is to leave, but what difference does that make?



Unless John Redwood mounts a coup and forces us into NAFTA, there would be no trade deal with the scope of NAFTA  TTIP inside this parliament, our best negotiators will be spending at least two years working out the EU situation for a start and HMG put out documentation this week, in support of Remain stating that trade deals take ages.


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## 2hats (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Your voice counts for *nothing* in the UK. It counts for nothing at all in Europe. You can't hope to vote out people that are not elected.



There. FTFY.


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## weltweit (Mar 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> Unless John Redwood mounts a coup and forces us into NAFTA, there would be no trade deal with the scope of NAFTA inside this parliament, our best negotiators will be spending at least two years working out the EU situation for a start and HMG put out documentation this week, in support of Remain stating that trade deals take ages.


Yes but we will be able to make trade deals with the commonwealth, yiptde fucking dee!


----------



## weltweit (Mar 3, 2016)

As part of the single European market, EU member states have worked to ensure satisfactory product and safety standards. Under the umbrella of the CE Marking Directive many product standards and European norms have been created and brought into British law via British Standards (BS). If you want to supply the UK, or any other EU country, your products have to comply with the relevant standards and display the CE mark.

The UK, being in the EU, has a part to play in shaping these product standards, norms, and directives to which we must then comply. If we leave the EU - but still wanted to trade with the single market - we will still have to comply with all relevant regulations but would have no further hand in shaping them.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

2hats said:


> There. FTFY.



Jeremy Hunt still walks up and down my high street mouthing platitudes, I can lamp the cunt any time I want. I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> Unless John Redwood mounts a coup and forces us into NAFTA, there would be no trade deal with the scope of NAFTA inside this parliament, our best negotiators will be spending at least two years working out the EU situation for a start and HMG put out documentation this week, in support of Remain stating that trade deals take ages.



When Greenland left, it apparently took three years just to sort out the fishing rights. Obvs the UK has far greater resources to deploy, but I reckon five years is probably optimistic.


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## teuchter (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jeremy Hunt still walks up and down my high street mouthing platitudes, I can lamp the cunt any time I want. I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.



Your Members in the European Parliament


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## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jeremy Hunt still walks up and down my high street mouthing platitudes, I can lamp the cunt any time I want. I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.


The Commissioners - European Commission


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Your Members in the European Parliament



How many commissioners are in there?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> The Commissioners - European Commission



See, they don't walk up and down my high street, they don't need to as they don't need to even pretend that my voice counts for anything.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Anyone? Any examples?



You are asking the wrong question, as the UK government are shitbags too. A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.

But if you really want your question answering, look to Cameron's negotiations to "Reform the EU". What was his key demand and how did that work out for him?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

Francois Hollande, ""I don't want to scare you, I just want to say the truth - there will be consequences."


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

Oh la la

EU referendum: Hollande warns of UK exit 'consequences' - BBC News



> *By BBC Paris Correspondent Lucy Williamson*
> Over the past few weeks, the rhetoric on Calais here has grown louder and more strident.
> 
> There is pressure from politicians on both the left and the right to tackle the migrant situation in Calais, and those close to government ministers say that includes those in the Cabinet.
> ...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You are asking the wrong question, as the UK government are shitbags too. A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.
> 
> But if you really want your question answering, look to Cameron's negotiations to "Reform the EU". What was his key demand and how did that work out for him?


He didn't have any key demands. That was just a game to produce a thing he could bring back here to show he was doing something about _immigrants claiming our benefits_.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You are asking the wrong question, as the UK government are shitbags too. A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.
> 
> But if you really want your question answering, look to Cameron's negotiations to "Reform the EU". What was his key demand and how did that work out for him?


It's not the wrong question to ask people who are saying that being in the EU means that attempts to improve things for a significant number of people in the UK are regularly blocked (at least, more regularly than attempts to pass policy that would worsen things for significant numbers of people).

It seems that that's your argument.

So what are the examples? Why don't you tell me what Cameron wanted with his reforms, and what he didn't get, and whether those things would have made life better for most people in the UK, or the most disadvantaged people in the UK, or whichever group you thinking of when you refer to the "general population".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> It's not the wrong question to ask people who are saying that being in the EU means that attempts to improve things for a significant number of people in the UK are regularly blocked (at least, more regularly than attempts to pass policy that would worsen things for significant numbers of people).
> 
> It seems that that's your argument.



That is not my argument at all. I don't hear anyone saying that. Can you show where people are saying that? Specific examples of people saying that would be handy.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> He didn't have any key demands. That was just a game to produce a thing he could bring back here to show he was doing something about _immigrants claiming our benefits_.



Yes, and he didn't even get that did he?


----------



## teuchter (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That is not my argument at all. I don't hear anyone saying that. Can you show where people are saying that? Specific examples of people saying that would be handy.


See the several pages above where nationalisation was being discussed. The discussion was about whether or not the EU could block Britain renationalising its railways, if the UK goverment wanted to. Several people were arguing that it could.

If it's not your argument that membership of the EU makes it less likely that the UK government will "change things that are bad for the general population", then you need to state it more clearly.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yes, and he didn't even get that did he?


He came back with a pretend solution to a pretend problem. Strikes me that was exactly what he went there for. It may not be working as well for him as he had hoped, but that's a different point.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> As I say, what are the real world examples of the EU stopping the UK government doing something they wanted to?


 
I can't give specifics, but there is a quote going round on the interweb that michael gove has said he's wanted to do things and been told by civil servants that it's against EU law.

On the basis of the sort of stuff I can imagine pob-faced-twunt wanting to do (i assume this means in terms of bringing legislation in rather than in his personal life) I suppose this counts as a progressive argument for staying in the EU...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> If it's not your argument that membership of the EU makes it less likely that the UK government will "change things that are bad for the general population", then you need to state it more clearly.



That isn't my argument either, you need to read more carefully.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That isn't my argument either, you need to read more carefully.


If you aren't interested in explaining your argument then I'll not bother trying to understand it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 3, 2016)

teuchter said:


> If you aren't interested in explaining your argument then I'll not bother trying to understand it.




A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.

hth


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 3, 2016)

isn't it lovely how the 'you'll get the pesky migrants' is a dog whistle threat now?


----------



## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> As part of the single European market, EU member states have worked to ensure satisfactory product and safety standards. Under the umbrella of the CE Marking Directive many product standards and European norms have been created and brought into British law via British Standards (BS). If you want to supply the UK, or any other EU country, your products have to comply with the relevant standards and display the CE mark.
> 
> The UK, being in the EU, has a part to play in shaping these product standards, norms, and directives to which we must then comply. If we leave the EU - but still wanted to trade with the single market - we will still have to comply with all relevant regulations but would have no further hand in shaping them.


Those would CE marks that have to fit in with global standards, that we get a seat at the table in deciding.


----------



## magneze (Mar 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> As part of the single European market, EU member states have worked to ensure satisfactory product and safety standards. Under the umbrella of the CE Marking Directive many product standards and European norms have been created and brought into British law via British Standards (BS). If you want to supply the UK, or any other EU country, your products have to comply with the relevant standards and display the CE mark.
> 
> The UK, being in the EU, has a part to play in shaping these product standards, norms, and directives to which we must then comply. If we leave the EU - but still wanted to trade with the single market - we will still have to comply with all relevant regulations but would have no further hand in shaping them.


So what? The same is true if you want to trade with anyone else. It's not like the EU is the only place the UK sells to. All other non-European countries seems to sell in Europe quite well.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> isn't it lovely how the 'you'll get the pesky migrants' is a dog whistle threat now?


Yep, but outside intervention could well be counter-productive to their cause...


----------



## Zabo (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I have no idea who these fuckers are who run things in the EU, let alone the chance to get myself nicked for chinning one of the fuckers.



I was tempted to chin one of them. He came to the door begging for old clothes in exchange for an EU balloon. The balloon was the giveaway.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> Those would CE marks that have to fit in with global standards, that we get a seat at the table in deciding.


CE marks are a European thing, you need to comply to sell to Europe. America / China / New Zealand have to comply with CE marks if they want to sell to the EU.

And if you are complaining that we only get a small seat at the European table you can be sure we get an even smaller one at global discussions.


----------



## newbie (Mar 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Yes but we will be able to make trade deals with the commonwealth, yiptde fucking dee!


If that was really what we were being offered- 50+ countries not 28 , 4 times the population of the EU, spread over all the inhabited continents and specifically not defined by skin colour- then there would be great deal of thinking to be done.  It's not on offer though, not by anyone sfaics.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 3, 2016)

magneze said:


> So what? The same is true if you want to trade with anyone else. It's not like the EU is the only place the UK sells to. All other non-European countries seems to sell in Europe quite well.


The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.


----------



## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> CE marks are a European thing, you need to comply to sell to Europe. America / China / New Zealand have to comply with CE marks if they want to sell to the EU.



You think I didn't know that?   You think other parts of the world don't have their version of CE?  That it its a coincidence that tat globally is becoming remarkably similar? 


How do get smaller than not having one.  We currently sit on 7% of the EU's seat.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> You think I didn't know that?   You think other parts of the world don't have their version of CE?  That it its a coincidence that tat globally is becoming remarkably similar?
> 
> How do get smaller than not having one.  We currently sit on 7% of the EU's seat.


What is your point caller?


----------



## gosub (Mar 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> What is your point caller?



I remember this point being made last year, and how Switzerland had to follow EU banking regulation.  True enough, hasn't stopped them formally withdrawing there application to join the EU.


eta (after dinner)   ISO codes don't originate in EU, CODEX for food may be written in Italy but there above EU,all your electronics that plug and plays together nicely if that was lead at continent level would be a nightmare, banking - Basel,  ID cards -ICAO.

Its healthier (if tedious) that the referendum is broadening  out peoples understanding of Article this and Article that ...but it should be done in tandem with info of  the overarching global bodies


----------



## teuchter (Mar 3, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A main point of leave is that with UK government shitbags there is the faint possibility of changing things that are bad for the general population, with an in vote that is lost, for good.
> 
> hth


You've repeated your assertion without explaining the reasoning behind it. No, that doesn't help.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 3, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.


Why don't you take these arguments to the "progressive arguments for staying in the EU' thread. I'm sure they'll get a good reception there.

------------

If people really want to have a 'progressive' (urgh, hate that phrase) debate about whether to vote, and if for who, then they need to stop reducing the question down to the UK gov vs the EU gov.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 3, 2016)




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## newbie (Mar 5, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Can anyone provide some examples of things that the UK government have wanted to do, but been prevented from doing so by the EU?



I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they?  That's rather telling, given how strongly the mainstream debate is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'.  The only example I can think of is the long running- and utterly ludicrous- _should prisoners be allowed to vote_ argument*.  There must be more examples, surely?

e2a, I don't even know whether that's an EU or ECHR matter tbh, so maybe leaving wouldn't change anything.


----------



## gosub (Mar 5, 2016)

newbie said:


> I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they?  That's rather telling, given how strongly the mainstream debate is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'.  The only example I can think of is the long running- and utterly ludicrous- _should prisoners be allowed to vote_ argument*.  There must be more examples, surely?
> 
> e2a, I don't even know whether that's an EU or ECHR matter tbh, so maybe leaving wouldn't change anything.


Prisioner votes is ECHR, but you can't be part of the single market either within or outside of EU without abiding by it.

I do recall Brown getting worked up about an UK oil refinery, where all job applications were entirely  being filled through an Italian agency (his British jobs for British workers week) which was quietly dropped amid accusations of racism and the fact stopping it went against EU law.  I said at the time that was going to cause difficultly with planning, as the main counter to NIMBYism over large heavy industry is usually "good for the local economy" .  Planning procedure has since changed.


----------



## J Ed (Mar 5, 2016)

Leaving EU = WW2


----------



## gosub (Mar 5, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Leaving EU = WW2



There are two issues currently that may well lead to the collapse of the European Union:
(1)reform or the lack of it of the EUro currency
(2)how to deal with the massive increase in people streaming into the EU

The UK is not in the EUro, nor Schengen as Mr Cameron proudly asserts, however our semi detached "special" status limits our influence how either are dealt with. Instead the UK government desires that we lash ourselves to the mast as both storms develop.

That is not to say that a loud acrimonious exit as favoured by some more populist elements of the OUT side wouldn't be like pouring petrol on the situation, but they would have no actual say in how it was done [carping from the sidelines about a stitch up most likely].  

A tactical withdrawal to EFTA seems sane, prudent and not too destabilizing.


----------



## Almor (Mar 5, 2016)

newbie said:


> I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they?  That's rather telling, given how strongly the mainstream debate is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'.  The only example I can think of is the long running- and utterly ludicrous- _should prisoners be allowed to vote_ argument*.  There must be more examples, surely?
> 
> e2a, I don't even know whether that's an EU or ECHR matter tbh, so maybe leaving wouldn't change anything.


 
From facebook where my uncle is share spamming valiantly for Brexit

The UK has lost over 75% of all cases it has taken to the European Court of Justice.These defeats affect everything...
Posted by Vote Leave on Wednesday, March 2, 2016​ 
clicking on the date will take you to the post, I think

:-/


----------



## gosub (Mar 5, 2016)

Almor said:


> From facebook where my uncle is share spamming valiantly for Brexit
> 
> The UK has lost over 75% of all cases it has taken to the European Court of Justice.These defeats affect everything...
> Posted by Vote Leave on Wednesday, March 2, 2016​
> ...


If you genuinely don't want to see those facebook purity as well as stripping out adverts, can filter content by key word


----------



## Almor (Mar 5, 2016)

gosub said:


> If you genuinely don't want to see those facebook purity as well as stripping out adverts, can filter content by key word


 
Thanks
I do occasionally moan at him about some of the crap he posts though

Not sure I can be bothered to engage with any of the EU referendum stuff even when it's nonsense


----------



## gosub (Mar 5, 2016)

Almor said:


> Thanks
> I do occasionally moan at him about some of the crap he posts though
> 
> Not sure I can be bothered to engage with any of the EU referendum stuff even when it's nonsense



At this stage is more a playground for the more committed, over a 100 days to go, people will be sick of it before main drive on either side gets going in May.   It is important and people should think things through before voting but....

Facebook Purity though a great free add on I don't know why everyone doesn't use it (apart from it robbing Mr Zuckerburg revenue )


----------



## hot air baboon (Mar 5, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.



....equally idiotic for them to put any barriers up to us bearing in mind the famous 70bn a year trade deficit we run with the EU and that Brexit-Britain, in the words of the extremely pro-EU Jonathan Portes _...would become the EU’s single largest trading partner for trade in goods..._


----------



## gosub (Mar 5, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The EU is the largest single market on the planet, (how big is NAFTA?) on our doorstep, it seems idiotic to me to put any barriers to our access to it.


Single Market or EEA is bigger than the EU.


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## redsquirrel (Mar 5, 2016)

newbie said:


> I don't think anyone has attempted to answer this, have they?  That's rather telling, given how strongly the* mainstream debate* is dominated by notions of 'sovereignty'.


(my emphasis)
Surely you've answered your own question. Teucher, and others, reduction of the issue to the UK gov vs EU gov is based on an underlying set of liberal assumptions that I don't accept, and is based in a view of politics that I am opposed to. 

You keep talking about "progressives" being on the same side but I see nothing progressive in writing the most important agent, labour, completely out the equation.


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## elbows (Mar 6, 2016)

I cannot help but to be amused that some prominent out tories (e.g. IDS, Boris) are whining about and exposing the nature of 'project fear'. I can enjoy this for at least two reasons - this sort of fear based approach to influencing the masses is always pretty blatant but usually goes unacknowledged by the sort of politicians that are pointing it out this time around. And we can have them for gross hypocrisy since the amount of time thats passed since they were happily using the very same fear propaganda in relation to the Scottish independence referendum is short.


----------



## newbie (Mar 6, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> (my emphasis)
> Surely you've answered your own question. Teucher, and others, reduction of the issue to the UK gov vs EU gov is based on an underlying set of liberal assumptions that I don't accept, and is based in a view of politics that I am opposed to.
> 
> You keep talking about "progressives" being on the same side but I see nothing progressive in writing the most important agent, labour, completely out the equation.


Well write it in then.

I'm parked firmly on the fence looking to U75 Out advocates for a clear understanding of how Brexit will advance the interests and agency of the organised and unorganised British and European labouring classes.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> Well write it in then.


I'm in opposition to the whole political underpinnings of the position precisely because it's liberal nonsense.



newbie said:


> I'm parked firmly on the fence looking to U75 Out advocates for a clear understanding of how Brexit will advance the interests and agency of the organised and unorganised British and European labouring classes.


Well see post 1287 for my views. Though if really are on the fence why aren't you challenging stuff like teuchers nonsense or the other liberal rubbish on the "Progressive arguments" thread?


----------



## newbie (Mar 6, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I'm in opposition to the whole political underpinnings of the position precisely because it's liberal nonsense.
> 
> Well see post 1287 for my views. Though if really are on the fence why aren't you challenging stuff like teuchers nonsense or the other liberal rubbish on the "Progressive arguments" thread?


I've read #1287.  It's an ok rant but doesn't actually say anything substantial.  And that, I'm afraid, is symptomatic of the Out campaigning so far.  

eg, it's all very well asserting that "_capital want's the UK to remain in the EU_" but it's simply not true.  Sections of 'capital' are lined up on both sides of the debate (see the current froth centered on the British Chambers of Commerce), dependent on how they think they can gain advantage over rivals by exploiting their preferred outcome, but in the sure knowledge they'll be able to continue to exploit come what may.

I'll challenge what, where and when I please, but by and large I won't bother saying things that others are already saying.

Meanwhile I'm hoping you can center your views on labour not on capital.


----------



## andysays (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> *...Sections of 'capital' are lined up on both sides of the debate* (see the current froth centered on the British Chambers of Commerce), *dependent on how they think they can gain advantage over rivals by exploiting their preferred outcome*...



This is a really important point which needs to be recognised and understood.

The "debate" such as it is tends to focus on the two competing sections of capital. The two sides of capital can't agree on this; even the traditional main political wing of British capital (ie the Conservative Party) can't agree, which is arguably the only reason we're having this referendum.

Therefore our response needs to focus explicitly on the interests of labour, but also to use the opportunity to further divide the opposing sections of capital. In that sense, it is worth examining the conflicting interests of capital in this, though not to the exclusion of all else (not suggesting that this last is actually happening here, BTW).


----------



## brogdale (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> I've read #1287.  It's an ok rant but doesn't actually say anything substantial.  And that, I'm afraid, is symptomatic of the Out campaigning so far.
> 
> eg, it's all very well asserting that "_capital want's the UK to remain in the EU_" but it's simply not true.  Sections of 'capital' are lined up on both sides of the debate (see the current froth centered on the British Chambers of Commerce), dependent on how they think they can gain advantage over rivals by exploiting their preferred outcome, but in the sure knowledge they'll be able to continue to exploit come what may.
> 
> ...


I think it's fair to say that the global corporations of financialised capital favour the continued denationalisation and internationalisation of the mechanisms inherent in the supra-national body that can ensure debt repayments are honoured above the demands of national citizens. I don't doubt that many SME owners feel differently, but the capital that controls our 'democracy' prefers 'remain'.
That said, the continued and growing power of the corporations to liberalise and escape any democratic interference will occur either 'remain' or 'leave'.


----------



## newbie (Mar 6, 2016)

andysays said:


> This is a really important point which needs to be recognised and understood.
> 
> The "debate" such as it is tends to focus on the two competing sections of capital. The two sides of capital can't agree on this; even the traditional main political wing of British capital (ie the Conservative Party) can't agree, which is arguably the only reason we're having this referendum.


yes, but no to only.  

I think it's worth recognising that 'capital' is not the only factor or force in society.  So eg strong anti-immigration sentiments have contributed to the political demands for the referendum (avoidance of doubt, that's not the same as anti-immigrant), as have notions of sovereignty and so on.  This has been such a long running sore within the tory party in particular but the right in general that ascribing it all to competing wings of capital just isn't credible.  


> Therefore our response needs to focus explicitly on the interests of labour, but also to use the opportunity to further divide the opposing sections of capital. In that sense, it is worth examining the conflicting interests of capital in this, though not to the exclusion of all else (not suggesting that this last is actually happening here, BTW).



Does 'our' mean simply posters on this thread or something wider?

in any case I don't really see what _dividing opposing sections of capital_ means, even if someone could come up with a worked example of how it might be possible. Clearly manufacturing, service and finance sections have different, often competing, interests in stuff like interest or exchange rates or international trading arrangements. A sector may collectively even see sectional advantage being In or Out of the EU, though I rather doubt it. But so what, they all exist to extract maximum profit from labour and resources, so while sectional advantage may help one or other regional labour demographic, overall it doesn't make much odds, does it?


----------



## newbie (Mar 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I think it's fair to say that the global corporations of financialised capital favour the continued denationalisation and internationalisation of the mechanisms inherent in the supra-national body that can ensure debt repayments are honoured above the demands of national citizens.


Corporations (mostly manufacturing or services) might but finance?  dunno, I don't believe anything bankers/financiers say in public anyway, they're all looking for short-term advantage.

This is possibly a diversion, but surely a substantial point about supra-national organisations is to avoid disputes caused by competing demands of national citizens turning to war, as has been traditional?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> Corporations (mostly manufacturing or services) might but finance?  dunno, I don't believe anything bankers/financiers say in public anyway, they're all looking for short-term advantage.
> 
> This is possibly a diversion, but surely a substantial point about supra-national organisations is to avoid disputes caused by competing demands of national citizens turning to war, as has been traditional?


That's the certainly the sort of argument used by some of the 'founding fathers' such as Spinelli, but the reality of the development of the project has been more Hayekian than anything to do with "peace".


----------



## andysays (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> yes, but no to only.
> 
> I think it's worth recognising that 'capital' is not the only factor or force in society.  So eg strong anti-immigration sentiments have contributed to the political demands for the referendum (avoidance of doubt, that's not the same as anti-immigrant), as have notions of sovereignty and so on.  This has been such a long running sore within the tory party in particular but the right in general that ascribing it all to competing wings of capital just isn't credible.



Of course capital isn't the only factor or force, but it's certainly the dominant one, and in my opinion the dominant arguments around immigration and sovereignty in the context of this referendum (and more widely, obviously) are almost entirely about immigration and sovereignty *as it benefits or hinders capitalism*.

The fact that it has been such a long running sore within the tory party in particular but the right in general suggests to me that ultimately it is all about competing wings of capital. Whether you think that's credible is another question.



> Does 'our' mean simply posters on this thread or something wider?



In this case what I mean is those of us, on this thread and more widely, who attempt to approach politics from a pro-working-class and anti-capitalist class perspective, who refuse to take sides with one or other competing section of capitalism.



> in any case I don't really see what _dividing opposing sections of capital_ means, even if someone could come up with a worked example of how it might be possible. Clearly manufacturing, service and finance sections have different, often competing, interests in stuff like interest or exchange rates or international trading arrangements. A sector may collectively even see sectional advantage being In or Out of the EU, though I rather doubt it. But so what, they all exist to extract maximum profit from labour and resources, so while sectional advantage may help one or other regional labour demographic, overall it doesn't make much odds, does it?



On a general level, it means making arguments and persuading people to vote in the way which in the short term will most fuck up capitalist interests and in the longer term make space for us to advance our own interests. In this particular case, I suggest it means arguing and voting for Britain to come out of the EU.


----------



## newbie (Mar 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> That's the certainly the sort of argument used by some of the 'founding fathers' such as Spinelli, but the reality of the development of the project has been more Hayekian than anything to do with "peace".


I'm no intellectual, so using shorthand like that is only barely meaningful to me, sorry.  If by 'Hayekian' you mean economic liberalism, then yes I accept that.  

OTOH the reality of some decades of no war between any of the major European powers is no mean achievement and needs to be recognised.  I guess it's drifting into Project Fear territory to note that someone posted the other day something about what happens when supranational bodies break up, citing the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, with, I suppose, Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans not so far behind.  PF it may be, but it can't be completely dismissed.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> I'm no intellectual, so using shorthand like that is only barely meaningful to me, sorry.  If by 'Hayekian' you mean economic liberalism, then yes I accept that.
> 
> OTOH the reality of some decades of no war between any of the major European powers is no mean achievement and needs to be recognised.  I guess it's drifting into Project Fear territory to note that someone posted the other day something about what happens when supranational bodies break up, citing the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia, with, I suppose, Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans not so far behind.  PF it may be, but it can't be completely dismissed.


Maybe it can't be dismissed, but it can be questioned/debated. 
Whilst there's obviously no way of knowing, it must be questionable that the 'Common Market'/EEC, EC, EU made any contribution towards the elimination of warfare between member states that would not naturally have arisen as a response to the disaster of the mid-century.


----------



## newbie (Mar 6, 2016)

andysays said:


> Of course capital isn't the only factor or force, but it's certainly the dominant one, and in my opinion the dominant arguments around immigration and sovereignty in the context of this referendum (and more widely, obviously) are almost entirely about immigration and sovereignty *as it benefits or hinders capitalism*.
> 
> The fact that it has been such a long running sore within the tory party in particular but the right in general suggests to me that ultimately it is all about competing wings of capital. Whether you think that's credible is another question.


Not particularly.  I don't hang out with racists but I've had lots of people tell me they don't like the EU because of mass immigration, and one of the issues has been depressing wages, which I suppose might fit what you're saying in a roundabout sort of way, but the main complaints are about culture, pressure on resources, benefits , language and why. No-one has ever focussed on competing wings of capital.  Now, I fully accept that people can whinge about anything they please without the establishment taking enough notice to call a referendum, but I think you're overplaying your hand a bit.  



> In this case what I mean is those of us, on this thread and more widely, who attempt to approach politics from a pro-working-class and anti-capitalist class perspective, who refuse to take sides with one or other competing section of capitalism.
> 
> On a general level, it means making arguments and persuading people to vote in the way which in the short term will most fuck up capitalist interests and in the longer term make space for us to advance our own interests. In this particular case, I suggest it means arguing and voting for Britain to come out of the EU.



I think only the most politically motivated are thinking about that sort of short-term.  I'd say people recognise that this really will affect almost every aspect of the rest of our lives, and will vote accordingly.

Even then, I'm still waiting to be persuaded that overall- as opposed to sectional- capitalist interests are in any way going to be affected.


----------



## newbie (Mar 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Maybe it can't be dismissed, but it can be questioned/debated.
> Whilst there's obviously no way of knowing, it must be questionable that the 'Common Market'/EEC, EC, EU made any contribution towards the elimination of warfare between member states that would not naturally have arisen as a response to the disaster of the mid-century.


of course it's debateable, but your initial assertion that a supranational body "would ensure debt repayments are honoured above the demands of national citizens" has to be seen in the light of what might happen without that body.  

The tensions between what an electorate currently wants and paying back debts already incurred won't go away in the absence of the EU, but the mechanism for resolving the tension is, well what?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> of course it's debateable, but your initial assertion that a supranational body "would ensure *debt repayments are honoured above the demands of national citizens*" has to be seen in the light of what might happen without that body.


I think I've made it clear, earlier up the thread, that in regard of that specific dynamic, nothing would change if the electorate voted 'leave'. It's just that the pressure from financialised capital to privilege the servicing of their debt would be applied directly through the bond markets, rather than mediated/co-ordinated by the supra-national entity.


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## Zabo (Mar 6, 2016)

Which is the easier to change? Mega Capitalism or Little Capitalism?

Okay, okay nothing profoundly Marxist there. Nothing that would stop Rosa Luxemburg from crawling under the bed in embarrassment. Nothing that would make Gramsci order a double espresso in shock at such simplicity and naivety. One thing is for certain, if anybody fools themself into thinking the EU will be the panacea for radical change which will serve the people then they really are deluding themselves.

Hopefully, like all other empires it will collapse and for the time being I shall be on the side that offers us the opportunity for change - out.

Time for that 'Fuck The Fucking Fuckers' billboard.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 6, 2016)

Zabo said:


> Which is the easier to change? Mega Capitalism or Little Capitalism?
> 
> Okay, okay nothing profoundly Marxist there. Nothing that would stop Rosa Luxemburg from crawling under the bed in embarrassment. Nothing that would make Gramsci order a double espresso in shock at such simplicity and naivety. One thing is for certain, if anybody fools themself into thinking the EU will be the panacea for radical change which will serve the people then they really are deluding themselves.
> 
> Hopefully, like all other empires it will collapse and for the time being I shall be on the side that offers us the opportunity for change - out.


But membership of the EU (or not) does not affect the 'size' of capitalism?


----------



## Zabo (Mar 6, 2016)

brogdale said:


> But membership of the EU (or not) does not affect the 'size' of capitalism?



That is true but it would be a damn site easier to take on the corner shop as opposed to the EU's global corporations and their hundreds - maybe thousands - of lobbyists.

As an aside. Does anybody know if the Co-Operative movement has increased or diminished during the time of the EU?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 6, 2016)

Zabo said:


> That is true but it would be a damn site easier to take on the corner shop as opposed to the EU's global corporations and their hundreds - maybe thousands - of lobbyists.
> 
> As an aside. Does anybody know if the Co-Operative movement has increased or diminished during the time of the EU?


But that corporate power remains whatever.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 6, 2016)

An FT piece that pretty much sums up much that rotten in the superstate....


> Greece’s warring creditors will attempt to bridge their differences at a meeting of eurozone finance ministers Monday amidst mounting concerns Athens’ €86bn third bailout is already headed for crisis.
> 
> The EU and the International Monetary Fund are at loggerheads over the strength of reform measures Athens must adopt to complete the rescue’s first quarterly review, which must be closed before the eurozone will consider the politically combustible issue of granting Greece debt relief.
> 
> ...


How depressing is that?


----------



## weltweit (Mar 6, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ....equally idiotic for them to put any barriers up to us bearing in mind the famous 70bn a year trade deficit we run with the EU and that Brexit-Britain, in the words of the extremely pro-EU Jonathan Portes _...would become the EU’s single largest trading partner for trade in goods..._


If Britain were out of the EU and wanted access to the EU market the EU would argue that to get access to the market we would have to play by the rules and pay the entry fee. i.e. get what we are getting at the moment, for the same cost, but without the say on how the market develops!


----------



## gosub (Mar 6, 2016)

weltweit said:


> If Britain were out of the EU and wanted access to the EU market the EU would argue that to get access to the market we would have to play by the rules and pay the entry fee. i.e. get what we are getting at the moment, for the same cost, but without the say on how the market develops!


Nope.  worked it out up thread from Norwiegian figures, there is an over £6 billion saving if UK accessed the EEA single market as an EFTA member.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Nope.  worked it out up thread from Norwiegian figures, there is an over £6 billion saving if UK accessed the EEA single market as an EFTA member.


Without any say as to how the market develops.


----------



## laptop (Mar 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Nope.  worked it out up thread from Norwiegian figures, there is an over £6 billion saving if UK accessed the EEA single market as an EFTA member.


ONLY IF the terms that Norway got were available.

How did their oil fund figure in those?


----------



## gosub (Mar 6, 2016)

laptop said:


> ONLY IF the terms that Norway got were available.
> 
> How did their oil fund figure in those?


EFTA payment terms are set, is dependant on GDP, UK's is 5.22 the size of Norway's.  Remain's claim they pay more per head is based on the fact there are only 5 million of them (which is not a factor in the official calculation).  I imagine the Norwegian oil fund figures quite largely in there GDP calculation.	

   (I'm also assuming all monies to the UK from the EU would be met and paid by HMG before you ask)


----------



## gosub (Mar 6, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Without any say as to how the market develops.



As I told you before, and you seemingly couldn't see the point, the acquired seat on the Global bodies means you get influencing preliminary drafting.

also how much say does UK have in the reform of the EUrozone?


----------



## weltweit (Mar 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> As I told you before, and you seemingly couldn't see the point, the acquired seat on the Global bodies means you get influencing preliminary drafting.


I don't see that. In the field that I have knowledge of, the EU called together representatives of the larger EU manufacturers of the said products to contribute to the drawing up of product standards based on best practice in the EU firms there represented. Once agreed, firms within the EU and outside of it, if they wanted to display the CE mark and supply EU countries, had to comply with the standard so developed. It was a wholly EU thing.


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## gosub (Mar 6, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't see that. In the field that I have knowledge of, the EU called together representatives of the larger EU manufacturers of the said products to contribute to the drawing up of product standards based on best practice in the EU firms there represented. Once agreed, firms within the EU and outside of it, if they wanted to display the CE mark and supply EU countries, had to comply with the standard so developed. It was a wholly EU thing.


which (you don't name the industry) would have to comply with overarching global specs.


Plus these larger manufacturers, (again I'don't know the industry) chances are will have operations in more than one EU state -  Roll Royce's letter to employees saying we are wholey owned by BMW and we need to stay in so as to be able influence standards was absurd.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> which (you don't name the industry) would have to comply with overarching global specs


No I didn't name the industry but before this EU standard we could export to many countries without having to comply with any standard at all. It helped if you supplied North America to have UL or CSA but not having it did not exclude you.


----------



## gosub (Mar 6, 2016)

Not listing the industry means I don't know when the EU standards came in, so can't point at any global development since then.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> Not listing the industry means I don't know when the EU standards came in, so can't point at any global development since then.


Broadly speaking the industry is electrical.


----------



## gosub (Mar 6, 2016)

ISO? IEC? CENELEC?  

World Trade Organization recommends in its Technical Barrier to Trade Agreement, that its members to use International Standards rather than regional or national ones whenever possible.	

(EU would be classed as regional)


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 6, 2016)

newbie said:


> eg, it's all very well asserting that "_capital want's the UK to remain in the EU_" but it's simply not true.  Sections of 'capital' are lined up on both sides of the debate (see the current froth centered on the British Chambers of Commerce), dependent on how they think they can gain advantage over rivals by exploiting their preferred outcome, but in the sure knowledge they'll be able to continue to exploit come what may.


With the overwhelming majority backing a "remain". To pretend otherwise is simply dishonest the stuff about the BCC sacking it chairman shows that capital supports the EU (bar a few exceptions), not the opposite.



newbie said:


> I'll challenge what, where and when I please, but by and large I won't bother saying things that others are already saying.


Then don't persist in this charade of being 'neutral'


----------



## weltweit (Mar 6, 2016)

gosub said:


> ISO? IEC? CENELEC?
> 
> World Trade Organization recommends in its Technical Barrier to Trade Agreement, that its members to use International Standards rather than regional or national ones whenever possible.
> 
> (EU would be classed as regional)


We, a UK maker, had to use EU norms brought into UK law as BS EN XXXX


----------



## gosub (Mar 7, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Read the letter German bosses at BMW sent to UK Rolls Royce workers warning them of the risks of leaving the EU



The EU and the Auto Manufacturers


----------



## newbie (Mar 7, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> With the overwhelming majority backing a "remain". To pretend otherwise is simply dishonest the stuff about the BCC sacking it chairman shows that capital supports the EU (bar a few exceptions), not the opposite.
> 
> Then don't persist in this charade of being 'neutral'


no charade, i don't know how I'm going to vote, as the bulk of the argument hasn't yet happened. There's an obvious element of _devil you know, devil you don't know_ inertia in me as in others, but I'm currently open minded to being persuaded one way or the other.

I know and care nothing about the BCC so let's assume you're right, their neutral stance is dishonest, and that all sectors of capital (manufacturing, services, finance, agriculture, energy and anything else) are predominantly united in their support for In because that's what they believe will make them the most money.  For the sake of argument, let's assume that at all levels, national, regional and global, the vast bulk of capital and capitalists supports Britain staying in the EU, with only a few chancers and mavericks supporting Out.

What is in the best interests of the working class, both British and European, in that case?

Of course we also need to wonder about the opposite case, that the vast bulk of capital and capitalists, barring outliers, supports leaving.   Again, in those circumstances, what's in the interests of the w/c?


----------



## chilango (Mar 8, 2016)




----------



## frogwoman (Mar 8, 2016)

chilango said:


>



What are they ranking as most to least eurosceptic?


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 8, 2016)

frogwoman it's a relative measure of areas (based on LEAs), most/least eurosceptic of the 188 LEAs they have large enough samples for. 


> New YouGov research using the profiles data of over 80,000 British people on the YouGov panel reveals the most and least Eurosceptic areas of Britain, down to the finest detail our data will allow. There are 206 local education authorities in England, Scotland and Wales, 188 of which we have large enough samples to report a position on the EU.
> 
> Taking the net support for leaving the EU in each region and ranking these from most to least eurosceptic, we've grouped the top ten most eurosceptic and europhile, the next 20 and then 40 on either side and the 48 which fall in the median range.


here


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 8, 2016)

Why is Credigion _so_ 'europhile'?

EDIT: suppose it might be a sample size issue (170 respondents)


----------



## brogdale (Mar 8, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Why is Credigion _so_ 'europhile'?
> 
> EDIT: suppose it might be a sample size issue (170 respondents)


CAP.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 8, 2016)

brogdale said:


> CAP.


Yeah maybe that combined with Aberystwyth university. Still surprised that it's _the _most europhile place in UK though.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 8, 2016)

I saw an interesting world map on twitter a few days ago. It had marks for every battle fought in the last hundreds of years. Obviously there were a lot of marks in Europe. (Can't find the tweet now). Anyhow, this is a key reason why I want the UK to remain in the EU, I want the UK to remain and to help shape the peaceful future of the EU.


----------



## chilango (Mar 8, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Why is Credigion _so_ 'europhile'?
> 
> EDIT: suppose it might be a sample size issue (170 respondents)



They elected s joint Plaid/Green MP back in the day ('92?)


----------



## brogdale (Mar 8, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah maybe that combined with Aberystwyth university. Still surprised that it's _the _most europhile place in UK though.




West Wales included within the EU's "Less developed region' classification (red) and therefore eligible for EU regional policy funds.


----------



## radgiesteve (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm undecided. I really dislike the idea of leaving the EU while the Tories are at the helm... it's a rigged game so we're probably fucked either way but if we had a few more politicians like Mhairi Black or John McDonnell standing up for the working class I'd be more confident about leaving.


----------



## paolo (Mar 8, 2016)

radgiesteve said:


> I'm undecided. I really dislike the idea of leaving the EU while the Tories are at the helm... it's a rigged game so we're probably fucked either way but if we had a few more politicians like Mhairi Black or John McDonnell standing up for the working class I'd be more confident about leaving.



If we had a few more politicians like them, we probably wouldn't be having the referendum in the first place


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 8, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I saw an interesting world map on twitter a few days ago. It had marks for every battle fought in the last hundreds of years. Obviously there were a lot of marks in Europe. (Can't find the tweet now). Anyhow, this is a key reason why I want the UK to remain in the EU, I want the UK to remain and to help shape the peaceful future of the EU.



Battles | Public Interface | nodegoat


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 9, 2016)

Least surprising thing ever with the In/Out 'campaign' so far, this, and entirely predictable all along. But almost all the day-to-day headlines and reporting on almost all mainstream media is about the EU Referendum as Tory vs Tory. (Only exception so far seems to be stories about how different capitalists feel about it).

For anyone not that obsessed by the EU, and not that interested in internal Tory party splits/divisions, or anyone just generally apolitical, that's got to be a continuing and massive turnoff. To me included, and I've got a higher than average level of political interest more generally.

But fuck me, what a massive EU yawn!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I saw an interesting world map on twitter a few days ago. It had marks for every battle fought in the last hundreds of years. Obviously there were a lot of marks in Europe. (Can't find the tweet now). Anyhow, this is a key reason why I want the UK to remain in the EU, I want the UK to remain and to help shape the peaceful future of the EU.




Are you comfortable with what the EU has done in Ukraine?


----------



## laptop (Mar 9, 2016)

"Damn those Germans, coming and taking one's job!"


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 9, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Are you comfortable with what the EU has done in Ukraine?



tbf is anyone comfortable with anything anyone has done in Ukraine? That includes the Ukrainians.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 9, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> tbf is anyone comfortable with anything anyone has done in Ukraine? That includes the Ukrainians.




No. But to pretend that the Eu is all about peace and love is batshit, even for welty.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 9, 2016)

Yeah.  The EU didn't create the peace.  The peace created the EU.  And then the EU went and did shit that was not always so peaceful.


----------



## bi0boy (Mar 9, 2016)

Europe was riven by 10 years of war recently in case anyone forgets: Yugoslav Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not sure what the EU did to prevent that really.


----------



## Ungrateful (Mar 9, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Europe was riven by 10 years of war recently in case anyone forgets: Yugoslav Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Not sure what the EU did to prevent that really.


 
Agreed that the 'EU = Peace' is bullshit, but the Balkan wars are not really counter-evidence of this questionable assertion as none of the former Yugoslav entities were part of the EU.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Battles | Public Interface | nodegoat


That actually isn't the one that I saw but it is pretty good. Look at all the battles in Europe, a smorgasboard of violence, and yet since the EU, relative peace. Lets work to help to keep it that way, Vote to Stay In the EU!


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Are you comfortable with what the EU has done in Ukraine?


I think Putin outflanked the EU in the Ukraine.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No. But to pretend that the Eu is all about peace and love is batshit, even for welty.


But it seems less likely that there will be a war between France and Germany while they are engaged in union via the EU. And that must be significant.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But it seems less likely that there will be a war between France and Germany while they are engaged in union via the EU. And that must be significant.



This argument may have been valid 30 years ago but it doesn't seem very relevant today.  The Union seemingly put a stop to wars between England and Scotland.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> This argument may have been valid 30 years ago but it doesn't seem very relevant today.  The Union seemingly put a stop to wars between England and Scotland.


yeh if you don't count 1715 and 1745


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But it seems less likely that there will be a war between France and Germany while they are engaged in union via the EU. And that must be significant.


----------



## newbie (Mar 9, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Are you comfortable with what the EU has done in Ukraine?


It's not just Ukraine, although that's the expansionist landgrab that's led to war.  It's pretty much the whole of central Europe and the  Baltic coast. Geo-strategic games to detach former satellites from Russia, in accordance with NATO objectives. 

Games which have taken place in parallel with deliberate blocking (until very, very recently) of longterm, repeated Turkish attempts to join the EU.  Not that skin colour, religion or cultural heritage have anything to do with it.


----------



## newbie (Mar 9, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> This argument may have been valid 30 years ago but it doesn't seem very relevant today.


Of course it's relevant today.  The union between Coatia and Serbia lasted from 1918 until they had a war shortly after Yugoslavia collapsed.

edited to make sense.


----------



## agricola (Mar 9, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh if you don't count 1715 and 1745



They were more civil wars in Scotland than English - Scottish ones; for instance a quarter of Cumberland's army at Culloden was Scots.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2016)

It has to make sense that if previously warring nations are moving together there is less likelihood of war. But if they are moving apart perhaps there is more. Stay in, it makes sense!


----------



## newbie (Mar 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It has to make sense that if previously warring nations are moving together there is less likelihood of war. But if they are moving apart perhaps there is more. Stay in, it makes sense!


the closer, stronger and more federal states become the greater the threat they pose externally.  See, for instance, the history of the expansion from a few states in what was called New England into what we face today.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 9, 2016)

Fucksake.  If the world deteriorated enough that France and Germany were squaring up to each other, the existence of the EU would be irrelevant.

This really is the weakest argument yet.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Fucksake.  If the world deteriorated enough that France and Germany were squaring up to each other, the existence of the EU would be irrelevant.


Surely the point is that France and Germany have squared up against each other twice in recent times and each time they did they dragged loads of others into it also. The fact that they are engaged in ever closer union within the EU is therefore a good thing, and if it is good for them, why not for us also, excepting Schengen and the Euro.


----------



## ffsear (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm voting out,   not that it matters.  The EU is broke and its days numbered.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Surely the point is that France and Germany have squared up against each other twice in recent times and each time they did they dragged loads of others into it also.




Even by your standards this post is going some.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 9, 2016)

I see kettering is in a solid blotch of red for eurosceptic. Not suprised.

also, lets not do the 'eu has saved us from ww3' shite again. Someone will mentioon kosovo, the cold war and its a crap non-argument. Melt.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Surely the point is that France and Germany have squared up against each other twice in recent times and each time they did they dragged loads of others into it also. The fact that they are engaged in ever closer union within the EU is therefore a good thing, and if it is good for them, why not for us also, excepting Schengen and the Euro.


Surely the point is that you have your cause and effect the wrong way round.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

agricola said:


> They were more civil wars in Scotland than English - Scottish ones; for instance a quarter of Cumberland's army at Culloden was Scots.



TBF there were a number of quite complex reasons for that, not least that part of Cumberland's army were _condottieres_ hired in from various Euro wars - mercenary companies who usually had significant Scots and Irish presences in the 17th and 18th centuries. Also Clan allegiances still played a role, with the old "enemy of my enemy.." _schtick_ being in play.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Surely the point is that France and Germany have squared up against each other twice in recent times and each time they did they dragged loads of others into it also. The fact that they are engaged in ever closer union within the EU is therefore a good thing, and if it is good for them, why not for us also, excepting Schengen and the Euro.



You're somewhat putting the cart before the horse.
Even outwith the existence of the modern-day form of the EU, by the mid 1950s Germany and France were already closely-bound by a series of mutual trade treaties much more involved and all-embracing than any prior treaties. To get into conflict with each other would have endangered that.
What the EEC/EU has done is *consolidated* those trade bonds into a set of national _raisons d'etre_ for France and Germany, and then used them as a superstructure on which to push through *political* union as both the ultimate brake on aggression, and the ultimate seal on an eventual fully-capitalist federal union.


----------



## gosub (Mar 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Surely the point is that France and Germany have squared up against each other twice in recent times and each time they did they dragged loads of others into it also. The fact that they are engaged in ever closer union within the EU is therefore a good thing, and if it is good for them, why not for us also, excepting Schengen and the Euro.



There was a question I saw on a repeat of QI the other day- "When did WW2 end?" , the tedious/QI answer it turns out was 1990, as it wasn't possible to officially end it until German reunification happened.  As I said tedious, but relevant here, 40 years of that EUropean peace there was an iron curtain, nuclear stalemate and a Germany cut in-two with NATO allies parking tanks to defend a sometimes uneasy peace with the Soviets.

Since reunification is a different story, the French insisted on the single currency in order to stop a reunified Germany dominating the EU, and frankly it hasn't worked - you only have to look to the club Med countries to see that.  And as the UK is outside the EUro our influence in sorting out what is a real mess is limited.

Beyond that,the EU is only just starting to militarise, while its expansionist agenda already has it rubbing up against the Russian sphere of influence.  Burke said "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it" : I'd say 19th-early 20th century was 'let's build alliances so large it would be madness to go war' that meant that when local difficulties did eventually happen, it quickly escalated across an entire continent.


----------



## ffsear (Mar 10, 2016)

Desperate measures now.   

ECB Acts Again To Stimulate Eurozone Economy


----------



## gosub (Mar 10, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Desperate measures now.
> 
> ECB Acts Again To Stimulate Eurozone Economy


An €80bn kitchen sink, the effect of which didn't last as long as the speech announcing it


----------



## stupid kid (Mar 10, 2016)

Just reading a few articles on the queen liz/The Sun debacle, and came across this 



> But high-ranking members of Cameron's Cabinet and Boris Johnson, London's charismatic mayor and *one of the UK's most popular and influential politicians*, have all come out in support of the "Leave" campaign.



I left the UK four years ago, what on earth has happened? Is this real? 

'Brexit' debate: Palace rejects report Queen backs leaving EU - CNN.com


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 10, 2016)

stupid kid said:


> I left the UK four years ago, what on earth has happened? Is this real?


its always been a bone of contention in the tory ranks, camerons had a lid on it and the rise of kipperdom by promising what is now coming, the brexit reff. So now a date is set its all gloves off


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Mar 10, 2016)

The bit about the Queen backing Brexit is a piece of imaginary journalism originated by the "super soaraway Sun". Yes BJ wants Britain out of the EU, probably as a vehicle for his own aspiration to lead the Tories. The Queen is of German stock we are being told all the time on these forums so it is unlikely that she wants to separate herself from her family and close relatives. Most of the European royalty are related.


----------



## gosub (Mar 10, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The bit about the Queen backing Brexit is a piece of imaginary journalism originated by the "super soaraway Sun". Yes BJ wants Britain out of the EU, probably as a vehicle for his own aspiration to lead the Tories. The Queen is of German stock we are being told all the time on these forums so it is unlikely that she wants to separate herself from her family and close relatives.



German cos one Great grand dad born in Germany


----------



## stupid kid (Mar 10, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> its always been a bone of contention in the tory ranks, camerons had a lid on it and the rise of kipperdom by promising what is now coming, the brexit reff. So now a date is set its all gloves off





Hocus Eye. said:


> The bit about the Queen backing Brexit is a piece of imaginary journalism originated by the "super soaraway Sun". Yes BJ wants Britain out of the EU, probably as a vehicle for his own aspiration to lead the Tories. The Queen is of German stock we are being told all the time on these forums so it is unlikely that she wants to separate herself from her family and close relatives. Most of the European royalty are related.



Oh I get all that stuff, I know Lizzy is famously neutral and the Sun are full of shit, would love to see their "sources" get outed, if they exist, or their hacks get exposed.

I just don't get how Boris Johnson is being taken seriously and is "Charismatic and influential". My memories of him were his being sacked as Tory Arts Spokesman, and then having a couple of mates voting for him for mayor "for a laugh", because he was a fucking clown straight off the Radio 4 News Quiz.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Mar 10, 2016)

stupid kid said:


> Oh I get all that stuff, I know Lizzy is famously neutral and the Sun are full of shit, would love to see their "sources" get outed, if they exist, or their hacks get exposed.
> 
> I just don't get how Boris Johnson is being taken seriously and is "Charismatic and influential". My memories of him were his being sacked as Tory Arts Spokesman, and then having a couple of mates voting for him for mayor "for a laugh", because he was a fucking clown straight off the Radio 4 News Quiz.


'That's how it goes with politics these days. Just look at Trump in America. Incidentally "sources" are sacrosanct to protect the press.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 10, 2016)

i fear the meejaa have confused 'popular' and 'influential'. Pork Chops are popular at Chez Kebab, but they are in no way influential...


----------



## irf520 (Mar 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> An €80bn kitchen sink, the effect of which didn't last as long as the speech announcing it



Or, to put it another way:

Draghi Fires Bazooka, Blows Own Balls Off


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 10, 2016)

kebabking said:


> i fear the meejaa have confused 'popular' and 'influential'. Pork Chops are popular at Chez Kebab, but they are in no way influential...


not even CNN could bring themselves to utter the words 'able' or 'accomplished' or even 'well respected'


----------



## Smangus (Mar 10, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> 'That's how it goes with politics these days. Just look at Trump in America. Incidentally "sources" are sacrosanct to protect the press.



 Wonder if they have hacked Bess's mobile?


----------



## Libertad (Mar 10, 2016)

Naughty, naughty Govey.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 10, 2016)

kebabking said:


> i fear the meejaa have confused 'popular' and 'influential'. Pork Chops are popular at Chez Kebab, but they are in no way influential...



'Popular' is also what they always say about dead school kids on the news if they don't have any other accomplishments worth highlighting.  It's a code word for ne'er-do-well.  It's for the ones that don't even qualify for 'aspiring football player'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 11, 2016)

Blair signals he won't play active role in EU Remain campaign - Politics live

sir tone of blair has his say and then says he won't be having more of a say. Which is nice for the remain campaign as they must have seen how effective he was when constantly piping up during the labour leadership battle


----------



## Obediah Marsh (Mar 11, 2016)

Economic/trade consequences of a Trump presidency? If US economic policy takes a protectionist turn will Britain fare better inside or out of the EU?


----------



## dilberto (Mar 11, 2016)

The EU project is just late stage capitalism, an attempt to continue economic growth beyond the limits of surviving national culture and on the basis of perpetually increasing levels of debt, but even the EU is not exempt from demographics and the laws of economics. The EU is a mercantile project based on the trading of national sovereignty and culture for economic advantage which changes the economies of its member states so that they no longer reflect their native people or surviving national cultures by favouring the interests of the expanded mercantile middle class and the rich because of their higher market value at the expense of the working class and the poor because of their lower market value, it is this which has created a cultural vacuum at the heart of Europe which is the cause of the EU's present invasive migrant crisis which threatens to turn the EU into a culturally failed superstate.

The EU attracts the support of those who belong to the favoured middle class and who are by inclination internationalist and progressive in their beliefs and have lesser concern for issues of national culture and sovereignty and consider that loyalty to the native people and culture of their nation to be an anachronism justifying that on the grounds that that nationalism is the sole threat to peace. But the national borders of the EU member states were determined through conflict between the national cultures of Europe which established the necessary equilibrium for peace in Europe, the EU in seeking to maintain peace on the continent by effectively abolishing those national cultures disturbs that equilibrium and threatens the conditions which established peace in the longer term.


----------



## paolo (Mar 11, 2016)

Any examples of how the EU is abolishing national cultures?

e.g. Language? Art? Food?


----------



## laptop (Mar 11, 2016)

paolo said:


> Any examples of how the EU is abolishing national cultures?
> 
> e.g. Language? Art? Food?


Well, London can no longer claim to be *special* for the shitness of its food. Not even Mansfield can, I'll wager.

And that's not all down to the East India Company colonial adventure...


----------



## teqniq (Mar 12, 2016)

(((food)))


----------



## weltweit (Mar 13, 2016)

Jeremy Clarkson announces he wants Britain to stay in the EU


> .. “I long for a time when I think of myself as a European first and an Englishman second. I crave a United States of Europe with one currency, one army and one type of plug," he wrote.


----------



## Duncan2 (Mar 13, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Jeremy Clarkson announces he wants Britain to stay in the EU


no doubt the pig-fucker from next door popped round and had a word


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2016)

> I crave a United States of Europe


 


I have a vague recollection of one of the far left parties (can't remember if it was the SWP, WRP or what) having "a socialist United States of Europe" in their manifesto in the 80s.

I'm also left wondering if clarkson is taking the piss, or is playing a subtle game to look as if he's supporting ham-face while saying stuff that will push a few more people in to voting 'leave'...


----------



## gosub (Mar 13, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I have a vague recollection of one of the far left parties (can't remember if it was the SWP, WRP or what) having "a socialist United States of Europe" in their manifesto in the 80s.
> 
> I'm also left wondering if clarkson is taking the piss, or is playing a subtle game to look as if he's supporting ham-face while saying stuff that will push a few more people in to voting 'leave'...


If you actually read his articles he's been consistently pro EU  for years


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> If you actually read his articles he's been consistently pro EU for years


 
I try where possible to avoid reading anything he writes or listening to anything he says.  it's better for the blood pressure that way.

And having said that, I'm still not sure if he ever means what he says, or is trolling.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 13, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I try where possible to avoid reading anything he writes or listening to anything he says.  it's better for the blood pressure that way.
> 
> And having said that, I'm still not sure if he ever means what he says, or is trolling.


bit of both really. And in the end the results the same. He'll still be playing the 'comedy' racist eu or no eu


----------



## newbie (Mar 14, 2016)

This is interesting


> more Britons favoured free mobility with Canada, Australia and New Zealand than with countries in the European Union.


there's been a theme emerging amongst mainstream Out campaigners that inward migration should be based on "_the freedom to draw specialist skills from a global talent pool_" (leave.eu) and family ties rather than from the EU.  I've been wondering whether this is a fig-leaf to cover simple xenophobia or represents a genuine cross-ethnic welcome. 


> “Collectively we possess a unique bond which needs protecting. We share a language, a legal system, and a Queen.”


(with obligatory picture of royal parasite).  That heritage based approach is true of the majority of Commonwealth countries.  It's not clear why the survey concentrates on only those countries, as all Commonwealth citizens have an enduring and significant relationship with this country. Diaspora based family ties are spread throughout the Commonwealth.


> The Royal Commonwealth Society’s survey showed that most people are in support of removing barriers to live and work in the four countries, with support among New Zealanders as high as 82%. Some 75% of Canadians, 70% of Australians and 58% of Britons are also in favour.


Those countries are, I suppose, mostly perceived as being white (as are EU countries), but that's changing in the UK and Canada in particular and presumably the others to a greater or lesser extent.  

Current bureaucracy free labour mobility is based on EU membership, and thus geographic proximity and shared, modern, European identity.

Maybe, post-Brexit, there should be no preferred countries of origin for free movement economic migrants. Everybody from everywhere will be treated entirely evenly.  That's certainly a possibility.

 Alternatively labour migration policy could be based on, emphasise and allow free movement between:

historic and heritage ties with those three countries in particular;
the Commonwealth as a whole;
something else?

So what do people here think?


----------



## youngian (Mar 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> This is interesting
> 
> there's been a theme emerging amongst mainstream Out campaigners that inward migration should be based on "_the freedom to draw specialist skills from a global talent pool_" (leave.eu) and family ties rather than from the EU.  I've been wondering whether this is a fig-leaf to cover simple xenophobia or represents a genuine cross-ethnic welcome.
> 
> (with obligatory picture of royal parasite).  That heritage based approach is true of the majority of Commonwealth countries.  It's not clear why the survey concentrates on only those countries, as all Commonwealth citizens have an enduring and significant relationship with this country. Diaspora based family ties are spread throughout the Commonwealth



Commonwealth is used as a dog whistle to UKIP supporters for white English speakers. I'm not sure Kippers have thought through the consequences of their party's equality of immigration policy; even lower paid farm workers from Bangladesh or Pakistan cutting lettuces in the field. The Commonwealth is a networking organisation and doesn't even resemble a free trade zone. The Brexiters are the inheritors of the League of Empire Loyalists who yearn for the days when the uppity natives were there to serve the white man and the British didn't have to sit on the same size chairs as Johnny Foreigner Frogs and Krauts. We won two world wars, a World Cup and had an empire don't you know. And Canada chose its economic destiny with the US at the turn of the 20th century. The idea of reviving failed Edwardian concepts of imperial/Commonwealth federation in the 21st are fantasies of the terminally deluded.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 14, 2016)

It seems to me that with ideology being so muddy on both sides of the vote (i.e. all points on the political spectrum can lay claim to both yes and no being the better option), it is a particularly difficult decision to make on ideological grounds.  I wonder if this is why I seem to observe people approaching it with a certain amount of bemusement and a tendency to focus on the minutiae of how it will affect their immediate lives more than most other votes I have experienced.

For me, I have no idea whether the people writ large will be better off in or out of the EU.  Seriously, no idea at all in spite of all the reasonable arguments made in this thread.  But I _do_ know that my job will become incredibly tedious and annoying for a good five years post an exit.  So believe me, that is a big pull towards staying in.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 14, 2016)

kabbes said:


> But I _do_ know that my job will become incredibly tedious and annoying for a good five years post an exit.  So believe me, that is a big pull towards staying in.



My life will possibly be quite adversely effected post brexit too, whilst the issues it may create for me may come across as first world problems, the way pro brexiters respond with guff and guffaw, dismissing any suggestion that it may restrict my freedom of travel across france and spain (two places I have family), as absolutely ridiculous, is somewhat infuriating. After all, we are British don't you know.

The sheer arrogance displayed by the out side I hope will lose them a lot of votes (I'm pro, if you hadn't worked that out).


----------



## weltweit (Mar 14, 2016)

I find it hard to imagine what life would be like if Britain left the EU. I have benefitted in many ways from EU membership primarily from the free movement of people. I would hate to lose that freedom.

It does not bother me that the plugs are different


----------



## newbie (Mar 14, 2016)

youngian said:


> Commonwealth is a dog whistle for white English speakers.


Just the opposite.  Commonwealth ties mean far more to the 100's of millions of non-white citizens than to the relatively few white ones.


----------



## laptop (Mar 14, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It does not bother me that the plugs are different



Odd that we haven't seen that as a scare story. (Or did I miss it?)

I'm pondering faking up a draft Directive just to watch the outers scream "They're trying to stop Britain being special!!!"

Yes dear. Special. With Needs.


----------



## youngian (Mar 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> Just the opposite.  Commonwealth ties mean far more to the 100's of millions of non-white citizens than to the relatively few white ones.


Fixed that


> Commonwealth is used as a dog whistle to UKIP supporters for white English speakers.


 When the word Commonwealth is evoked it's not to float the idea of open immigration with Nigeria to UKIP and Tory right voters. Even among the Oxbridge educated elites of the Commonwealth the idea it will morph into a trade and social federation with Britain as its centre is laughable.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2016)

laptop said:


> Odd that we haven't seen that as a scare story. (Or did I miss it?)
> 
> I'm pondering faking up a draft Directive just to watch the outers scream "They're trying to stop Britain being special!!!"
> 
> Yes dear. Special. With Needs.


Don't do that.


----------



## youngian (Mar 14, 2016)

laptop said:


> Odd that we haven't seen that as a scare story. (Or did I miss it?)
> 
> I'm pondering faking up a draft Directive just to watch the outers scream "They're trying to stop Britain being special!!!"



No don't do that, I tried out Stewart Lee's "Brussels is going to make us wear hard hats so we don't offend Muslims" on a Kipper relative as an obvious illustrative joke but he bought it.


----------



## laptop (Mar 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Don't do that.


Not even with an acrostic? First letter of each paragraph spells "This is fake you daft kipper"?

No


----------



## weltweit (Mar 14, 2016)

laptop said:


> Odd that we haven't seen that as a scare story. (Or did I miss it?) ..


Clarkson said recently in his column that he wanted to see one Europe with one currency, one army and one electrical plug!


----------



## newbie (Mar 14, 2016)

youngian said:


> Fixed that
> When the word Commonwealth is evoked it's not to float the idea of open immigration with Nigeria to UKIP and Tory right voters. Even among the Oxbridge educated elites of the Commonwealth the idea it will morph into a trade and social federation with Britain as its centre is laughable.


no-one here is a kipper.  Most are capable of reading an article that suggests over half those surveyed in the UK want live and work restrictions removed for those specific Commonwealth countries. It's you using Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nigeria for dog whistle politics, not me. I'm just trying to find out what those who propose leaving want in terms of labour migration policy.


----------



## youngian (Mar 14, 2016)

I rarely watch Top Gear regular but I knew Clarkson was a Europhile especially when he has to test dismal US cars. When Clarkson is not being Clarkson he does espouse more considered views.


----------



## laptop (Mar 14, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Clarkson said recently in his column that he wanted to see one Europe with one currency, one army and one electrical plug!


So he is trying to drive people to vote "out"?


----------



## youngian (Mar 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> no-one here is a kipper.  Most are capable of reading an article that suggests over half those surveyed in the UK want live and work restrictions removed for those specific Commonwealth countries. It's you using Bangladesh, Pakistan and Nigeria for dog whistle politics, not me. I'm just trying to find out what those who propose leaving want in terms of labour migration policy.


 Brexiter immigration policies vary, free marketeers like Lord Lawson would be happy for more immigration and would argue that EU free movement impedes the brightest and best from the rest of the world bringing their skills to the UK. Most like UKIP want employers to demonstrate they have a labour shortage in order to justify employing overseas labour.  In reality, it will be business as usual but that's not really what its core of far right fellow travellers want to hear. Brexit for them is an opportunity to close the country's border and throw out the foreigners. Some people have a genuine grievance in housing and wage depression and see the immigrants as the root cause. Others are just the kid at back of the class that pulls legs of spiders. Farage has to steer a tricky course to endulge his coalition of supporters; libertarian free marketeers and racist/nationalist nut jobs have a different view of the world.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 14, 2016)

I know quite a few people working in scientific research positions and they are fearful of the effects of an exit on science funding and ease of international collaboration.

Does anyone find much of significance to disagree with here?

Debunking the myths about British science after an EU exit


----------



## youngian (Mar 14, 2016)

The battle of the titans; Professor Stephen Hawking Vs Norfolk UKIP


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I know quite a few people working in scientific research positions and they are fearful of the effects of an exit on science funding and ease of international collaboration.
> 
> Does anyone find much of significance to disagree with here?
> 
> Debunking the myths about British science after an EU exit



While it covers the Swiss model, it doesn't cover the Norway option.  Why?....cos Norway,an  EFTA member, is a fully paid up part of the EU science programme.


Scientists for Britain – UK scientists concerned that the EU uses science for political gain. International cooperation can continue outside of EU constraints.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 14, 2016)

No one invented shit before the Maastricht treaty. _Fact!_


----------



## teuchter (Mar 14, 2016)

gosub said:


> While it covers the Swiss model, it doesn't cover the Norway option.  Why?....cos Norway,an  EFTA member, is a fully paid up part of the EU science programme.
> 
> 
> Scientists for Britain – UK scientists concerned that the EU uses science for political gain. International cooperation can continue outside of EU constraints.



As far as I can see, the problems that Switzerland encountered were related to their immigration policies. Is it unreasonable to suggest that the UK could find itself in a similar position? The point of the "case study" seems to be to demonstrate that while non-EU countries can participate in these schemes, it's conditional. In other words if they don't comply with EU conditions they're out. 

Also: I was curious to see who "Scientists for Britain" are.

It seems to be 4 people, at least, who will put their names to it. Not much indication of how widely they are supported.

I note that one of those four is not a scientist but graduated in Political history, works in venture capital and was adviser to Michael Gove. Another is a conservative parliamentary candidate.

About Us – Scientists for Britain


----------



## teuchter (Mar 14, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> No one invented shit before the Maastricht treaty. _Fact!_


This addresses zero of the points argued in that article.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> As far as I can see, the problems that Switzerland encountered were related to their immigration policies. Is it unreasonable to suggest that the UK could find itself in a similar position? The point of the "case study" seems to be to demonstrate that while non-EU countries can participate in these schemes, it's conditional. In other words if they don't comply with EU conditions they're out. I
> 
> Also: I was curious to see who "Scientists for Britain" are.
> 
> ...



Yep, four of them, only two are scientists - one is a GP. Not a go-to source.


----------



## gosub (Mar 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep, four of them, only two are scientists - one is a GP. Not a go-to source.


Limited amount of time this week, got a bastard TMA on a discontiguous network to do.  And I mean bastard.


----------



## binka (Mar 14, 2016)

laptop said:


> Not even with an acrostic? First letter of each paragraph spells "This is fake you daft kipper"?
> 
> No


I think he meant the shit special needs joke


----------



## youngian (Mar 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep, four of them, only two are scientists - one is a GP. Not a go-to source.





> Jamie Martin is our Science Policy Adviser: Jamie is a former Special Adviser to Michael Gove when he was the Secretary of State for Education and whilst in opposition. He graduated from the University of Cambridge in 2007 with an Mphil (1st Class) in Political History.



So not even a Science Policy Adviser to Gove. He just made the name up.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 14, 2016)

gosub said:


> Limited amount of time this week, got a bastard TMA on a discontiguous network to do.  And I mean bastard.


That's exactly what these groups rely on. People who quote sources when they haven't got the time to check them out first.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2016)

binka said:


> I think he meant the shit special needs joke


I did.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I note that one of those four is not a scientist but graduated in Political history, works in venture capital and was adviser to Michael Gove. Another is a conservative parliamentary candidate.
> 
> About Us – Scientists for Britain


And yet another was a UKIP parliamentary candidate in 2015.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 20, 2016)

Cameron has urged people to vote in the EU referendum 'or you'll find we're out'


----------



## brogdale (Mar 20, 2016)

Obviously, only 1 poll, but interesting timing and all that...


----------



## brogdale (Mar 20, 2016)

and some interesting poll finding to complement those numbers above...


----------



## brogdale (Mar 20, 2016)

These must be very worrying numbers for No. 10....


----------



## killer b (Mar 20, 2016)

I was reading this interview with Wolfgang Streeck in Jacobin, he tackles the point people have made here that a victory for brexit will be a victory for the far right: 



> *What about those on the Left who argue that the call to withdraw from Europe and return to national economic institutions only strengthens the hand of the nationalist right? That it’s better to renovate European institutions rather than risk feeding the likes of the National Front or Golden Dawn?*
> 
> Those who think so get the causality wrong. What boosts the Right in Europe is the disempowerment of broad segments of national citizenries by supranational institutions whose operation nobody understands — the disempowerment, that is to say, of nationally based democracy in favor of a remote European technocracy specializing in the opening of markets for multinational corporations, especially the financial industry.
> 
> ...


----------



## brogdale (Mar 20, 2016)

killer b said:


> I was reading this interview with Wolfgang Streeck in Jacobin, he tackles the point people have made here that a victory for brexit will be a victory for the far right:


Yes, and he concludes "Buying Time" on that very theme:-


> _In Western Europe today, the greatest danger is not nationalism – least of all German nationalism – but Hayekian market liberalism. Completion of monetary union would seal the end of national democracy in Europe – and therefore of the only institution that can still be used to defend against the consolidation state. If, for the foreseeable future, the historically developed differences among European nations are too great to be integrated into a common democracy, then the institutions representing those differences may possibly, as a second-best solution, be used as a stumbling block on the downhill slope into a single market state purged of democracy. And so long as the best is no solution, the second-best is the best._


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2016)

I like this bit


> I for one don’t put much store by ideology. Most of these people don’t believe in anything except their balance sheet, and they know how to add two and two. On political interests: they are a parallelogram of different and typically conflicting goals, never defined by one goal only: industrial capital, financial capital, governing parties, states, sometimes the labor aristocracy, all interacting under the pressure of — changing — power relations.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> These must be very worrying numbers for No. 10....




Did they ask the first question before asking the second one? If so, they primed their respondents.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 20, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did they ask the first question before asking the second one? If so, they primed their respondents.


Haven't seen the raw output/methodology so I can't say. Nonetheless, it's the sort of metric that the campaign teams will pay attention to.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 22, 2016)

Smithson points out that FWIW quite a bit of £ was placed on the outcome of the EUref over the last 24hrs, and it ticked up 'Leave' & down 'Remain"


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 22, 2016)

How much is that betting related to all the recent/current IDS/Osborne malarkey though? brogdale ?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 22, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> How much is that betting related to all the recent/current IDS/Osborne malarkey though? brogdale ?


Don't know, but strongly correlated I'd have thought. Of course, the 'Leavists' will also be using the terrorism angle and increasingly highlighting Cameron's pro-Turkey accession position...maybe that's also starting to affect betting sentiment?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 29, 2016)

A few of these coming through now...hmmm


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 30, 2016)

brogdale said:


> A few of these coming through now...hmmm


Is BMG an internet poller? 

MORI had REMAIN 49%, LEAVE 41%, DK/WNV 10%. So still differences between phone and online polls but not as much as there was


> It’s worth noting that the big gulf between telephone and online polls on the EU referendum has narrowed significantly. In December and January the average REMAIN lead in telephone poll was twenty points, the average lead in online polls was zero; a towering gulf between the two modes. Polls this month have averaged a 2 point REMAIN lead in online polls, a 6 point REMAIN lead in phone polls. Even excluding the ORB phone poll that seemed completely out of line with all other telephone polls, the average of ComRes, MORI and Survation was 9 points. There’s still a significant contrast between online and phone polls on the topic… but a gap of seven points is far, far less of a gulf than a gap of twenty points!


----------



## Santino (Mar 30, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Is BMG an internet poller?
> 
> MORI had REMAIN 49%, LEAVE 41%, DK/WNV 10%. So still differences between phone and online polls but not as much as there was


Polling companies adjust their results by comparing them with the results of other polling companies, so you can't always tell if narrowing gaps are just a result of the different companies clustering together (as happened before the general election).


----------



## brogdale (Mar 30, 2016)

Santino said:


> Polling companies adjust their results by comparing them with the results of other polling companies, so you can't always tell if narrowing gaps are just a result of the different companies clustering together (as happened before the general election).


...or a genuine reflection of a trend in voting intentions.


----------



## andysays (Mar 30, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ...or a genuine reflection of a trend in voting intentions.



If it *is* that, I don't think much of the trend can be put down to the recent electoral communication from LEAVE.EU (are they the official "Leave" campaign? I remember there was some question of which of a number of rival campaigns would get official status and the financial backing that comes with that status, but I can't remember if that ever got resolved).

Anyway, the letter I had today tells me it's the most important vote of my life, but if I was basing my decision simply on the info contained, it really wouldn't do anything to persuade me.


----------



## coley (Mar 30, 2016)

While I intend to vote leave, the thought of Cameron's resignation ( and those of his marras) and their subsequent humiliation should tempt even the most ardent Europhiles to change their minds.


----------



## 8115 (Mar 30, 2016)

If we leave the EU and Scotland leave the UK, does that mean I would not be able to work in Scotland easily? Because it's something I've always fancied doing.


----------



## 8115 (Mar 30, 2016)

I predict the vote will be to leave by the way, I think it's going to happen.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 30, 2016)

I haven't been watching much television, has there been much campaigning yet?


----------



## 8115 (Mar 30, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I haven't been watching much television, has there been much campaigning yet?


Not really, the government keep saying everything will get worse if we leave the EU, the leave camp are staying quite quiet, judging I think rightly that people will tend to disbelieve the government and that a lot of people are naturally dissatisfied with being in Europe anyway.


----------



## coley (Mar 30, 2016)

8115 said:


> If we leave the EU and Scotland leave the UK, does that mean I would not be able to work in Scotland easily? Because it's something I've always fancied doing.


If Scotland leaves the UK I think you might have some problems finding a job in Scotland


----------



## 8115 (Mar 30, 2016)

coley said:


> If Scotland leaves the UK I think you might have some problems finding a job in Scotland


Sorry but that just really made me laugh


----------



## coley (Mar 30, 2016)

8115 said:


> Not really, the government keep saying everything will get worse if we leave the EU, the leave camp are staying quite quiet, judging I think rightly that people will tend to disbelieve the government and that a lot of people are naturally dissatisfied with being in Europe anyway.


The leave camp are just letting people watch the news, they don't need to "campaign' as such.


----------



## coley (Mar 30, 2016)

8115 said:


> Sorry but that just really made me laugh


Don't mention it, glad to have given you some amusement


----------



## weltweit (Mar 30, 2016)

I am for in. Remain in the EU, with our nearest neighbours, and campaign from the inside for improvements to EU mechanisms and policies.


----------



## coley (Mar 30, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am for in. Remain in the EU, with our nearest neighbours, and campaign from the inside for improvements to EU mechanisms and policies.


Aye, and pig sucker has just made such a marvellous job of that, hasn't he?

Noticed our steel industry is going down the plughole while other EU nations are managing to protect theirs? The only reason pig sucker and his marras want to remain in the EU is to protect the interests of the UKs financial sector.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 30, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, and pig sucker has just made such a marvellous job of that, hasn't he?
> 
> Noticed our steel industry is going down the plughole while other EU nations are managing to protect theirs? The only reason pig sucker and his marras want to remain in the EU is to protect the interests of the UKs financial sector.


How are Germany, as one example, protecting their steel industry? and if they are why are we not?


----------



## coley (Mar 30, 2016)

weltweit said:


> How are Germany, as one example, protecting their steel industry? and if they are why are we not?



Sorry wellie, I'm not your personal google, but a wee clue, they exempted 'strategic industries' from the emissions controls resulting in said industries not being hammered by the resultant increases in energy costs.
Whereas the UK didn't, resulting in the closure of three aluminium smelters, one on me doorstep, Lynemouth.
And now the steel industry, high energy costs are given as the one of the major reasons of being unable to compete against overseas competition.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 31, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am for in. Remain in the EU, with our nearest neighbours, and campaign from the inside for improvements to EU mechanisms and policies.



Which will be routinely ignored as usual, by people hardly any of us even know the names of, or their roles, or how they got them . Who have all sorts of power over people despite them never having heard of them much less voted for them . Fuck that .

Syriza have tried that. In spades . Massive failure . Because they were too afraid to even consider pulling out of it as an alternative. The EU knew that in advance and just stuck it to them . And they collapsed in a miserable failure .


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 31, 2016)

The above is all true I think, but that still doesn't make me like Brexit campaigners and the utter lies they tell about Europe/the EU. Their demented obsession with the 'evils' of Europe is just bonkers too, and very offputting. My main reason (ultra trivial as it may be) for not wanting to vote Leave is not wanting to reward Boris Johnson and Farage and gang  .

Not saying the Remain lot are any better. And I'm perfectly well aware that the real issues to do with EU membership are much more serious than the above. More saying that it's all been an utterly shit campaign so far, and a big turnoff. (Didn't expect much else mind you .... )


----------



## chilango (Mar 31, 2016)

"Neither Westminster nor Brussels..."


----------



## newbie (Mar 31, 2016)

coley said:


> Aye, and pig sucker has just made such a marvellous job of that, hasn't he?
> 
> Noticed our steel industry is going down the plughole while other EU nations are managing to protect theirs? The only reason pig sucker and his marras want to remain in the EU is to protect the interests of the UKs financial sector.


nobody has yet managed to explain why they think that will change after Brexit.  

All recent British governments have been enthusiastic liberals who have allowed low global prices (which are good for consumers as well as financiers) to destroy British manufacturing.  As you say, other European governments have managed protectionism of one sort or another, not only for steel but for railways, agriculture.... We're currently being told that it's the British government who lead the resistance to increasing EU tarriffs on Chinese imports.  

Why does anyone expect this to suddenly reverse after a Brexit vote?


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm getting sick of lazy conflation of EU / ECHR by campaigners and news organisations.  How have we ended up with 'human rights' being a bad thing?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I'm getting sick of lazy conflation of EU / ECHR by campaigners and news organisations.  How have we ended up with 'human rights' being a bad thing?


To be honest that is done by pro-eu type as well  - on the assumption that eu=human rights, ECHR must therefore be eu related, and so those who oppose the eu oppose human rights.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 31, 2016)

newbie said:


> nobody has yet managed to explain why they think that will change after Brexit.
> 
> All recent British governments have been enthusiastic liberals who have allowed low global prices (which are good for consumers as well as financiers) to destroy British manufacturing.  As you say, other European governments have managed protectionism of one sort or another, not only for steel but for railways, agriculture.... We're currently being told that it's the British government who lead the resistance to increasing EU tarriffs on Chinese imports.
> 
> Why does anyone expect this to suddenly reverse after a Brexit vote?



I don't think it will. But if they leave you can actually have a chance..no matter how small..to change it , providing you install someone who will change it or pressure them enough . In the EU there'll be no change, no matter what you do . It's faceless to all intents and purposes . Totally remote . Even when you see the fuckers face it's a case of " who's he ? " . It's the one thing Farage is spot on about . And that's getting him a lot of support besides the other stuff. I think the left overlook that a bit too easily when they're challenging the rest of it .
The deals they cutin Westminster are bad enough, but at least you hear about them . In Brussels it's...wha ?? When ? Who ?? Where ??....because Bulgarian egg producers what ???


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2016)

My grandma wants me to design an "out" poster for her window. I said that I might draw a ball and chain on the European continent and a scissors cutting it off from the UK and leaving it to drift, slowly away. She loved that idea


----------



## gosub (Mar 31, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am for in. Remain in the EU, with our nearest neighbours, and campaign from the inside for improvements to EU mechanisms and policies.



we've been swimming against that tide for over a decade to no avail.


----------



## gosub (Mar 31, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I'm getting sick of lazy conflation of EU / ECHR by campaigners and news organisations.  How have we ended up with 'human rights' being a bad thing?



When it got so far up its own arse you can't even put a pub watch poster up for fear of infringing rights


----------



## newbie (Mar 31, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> I don't think it will. But if they leave you can actually have a chance..no matter how small..to change it , providing you install someone who will change it or pressure them enough .


yes, fair enough, that's pretty much the answer to every question and tbf all anyone can really say. It's dead easy to file it under Project Wishful Thinking, but I'm not as dismissive as that sounds, it's a powerful appeal.

But you have to wonder about the the flipside: what happens if there is no progressive government for decades to come, no assertive working class pressure for protection of domestic jobs, living standards or the welfare state? 

What the left Out campaign, such as it is, has really offered so far amounts to little more than hope over experience. Bear in mind the right are dreaming too, they dominate the campaigns and the arguments, it seems wholly plausible they'll take the spoils of victory.

The balance of forces hasn't been favourable for the duration of my adult life, and shows very little sign of becoming so. Who is better off Out under those circumstances?


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 31, 2016)

Casually Red said:
			
		

> because Bulgarian egg producers what ???



Can I SELL that phrase to whichever Brexit campaign might buy me  a pint for it?  

(Take your post's general point mind .... )


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Apr 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> yes, fair enough, that's pretty much the answer to every question and tbf all anyone can really say. It's dead easy to file it under Project Wishful Thinking, but I'm not as dismissive as that sounds, it's a powerful appeal.



Isn't it wishful thinking to believe that the long-term trajectory of the EU is in favour of worker's rights? Are we to just ignore the way the European institutions shat all over Greece just to prove a point? This is the direction of travel if we stay in the EU - not 'progressive' politics, whatever that might look like.



newbie said:


> But you have to wonder about the the flipside: what happens if there is no progressive government for decades to come, no assertive working class pressure for protection of domestic jobs, living standards or the welfare state?



What if there is not progressive governance* on an EU level for decades to come? What then? How do you change things?

* Take note I use the word 'governance' instead of 'government', because actually the European project is a technocratic one. We are here to be administrated over, not served in a democratic sense.



newbie said:


> What the left Out campaign, such as it is, has really offered so far amounts to little more than hope over experience. Bear in mind the right are dreaming too, they dominate the campaigns and the arguments, it seems wholly plausible they'll take the spoils of victory.



This is exactly my opinion of the left-wing arguments for staying in. They are full of hopes of being protected from the evil Tories, and dreams of building a continent-wide social democratic utopia. It's never going to happen - the Tories (or more accurately Capital as a class) will come to (or rather, continue to) dominate the institutions of power in Brussels. We won't win. 



newbie said:


> The balance of forces hasn't been favourable for the duration of my adult life, and shows very little sign of becoming so. Who is better off Out under those circumstances?



Those that make the judgement that it's easier to fight a giant than a juggernaut. A domestic fight will be brutal. A fight spread over an entire continent will be lost.


----------



## newbie (Apr 1, 2016)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Those that make the judgement that it's easier to fight a giant than a juggernaut. A domestic fight will be brutal. A fight spread over an entire continent will be lost.


Divide and rule is the oldest trick in the book.

Overall your post is entirely reasonable- that's what makes this whole thing so difficult to make a decision about. However my point about hope over experience stands.

The Social Chapter originated in 1989 with an opt-out by Major, was ratified in 1992 (Maastricht) with another UK opt-out, which was reversed in 1997. The Working Time Directive seems to have started with an International Labour Organisation max 48hour week convention in 1919, which the UK did not ratify, was EU agreed in 1993, with a UK opt-out, and was finally and unenthusiastically implemented here (with opt-outs, including the 48hr week) in 1998 & 2003 after the British government fought and lost a court case in 1996.

So this stuff is from a different era and was opposed tooth and nail by our government.  Yet those protections have endured through increasingly neolib technocratic EU governance (and mostly rightwing national governments throughout Europe) and may be extended*. 

Equally, of course it may all get swept away Europe-wide at some future negotiation.

Whichever way we collectively vote is a gamble, faith that any outcome will be progessive is a bit of a stretch.

* the WTD review the EC carried out last year covered "on-call  time,  stand-by  time,  compensatory  rest,  autonomous workers (_ie the self-employed and volunteers_), application  per-contract  or  per-worker,  opt-out". New provisions will, of course, be opposed by the UK government, the CBI, the Daily Mail and most of those who walked from the shadow cabinet.


----------



## newbie (Apr 1, 2016)

Although, there is another point which bears consideration: we're often told that Norway is an example to follow, outside the EU but with all the trading etc advantages.  They have to accept EU laws, including the WTD*, but have no say on drafting, implementing them, cannot opt-out or veto.

Maybe the EU would be a more progressive place if the British government was similarly denied a voice.



* more or less!  Norway has currently not accepted

Article 8§2 – Illegality of dismissal during maternity leave
Article 8§5 – Prohibition of dangerous, unhealthy or arduous work
Article 18§2 – Simplification of existing formalities and reduction of dues and taxes
Article 18§3 – Liberalisation of regulations
Article 19§8 – Guarantees concerning deportation
Article 26§2 – Moral harassment
Article 29 – Right to information and consultation in collective redundancy procedures


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 1, 2016)

newbie said:


> Although, there is another point which bears consideration: we're often told that Norway is an example to follow, outside the EU but with all the trading etc advantages.  They have to accept EU laws, including the WTD, but have no say on drafting, implementing them, cannot opt-out or veto.



They're also in Schengen.  So I don't know how that works with _we can't control our borders_ mob.


----------



## gosub (Apr 1, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> They're also in Schengen.  So I don't know how that works with _we can't control our borders_ mob.




It doesn't which is why there is no agreed idea of what out should look like, unfortunately.   Though the actual deal isn't one the groups have any influence on.  I fully expect it would be a Norway type arrangement leaving scope for Farage et al to continue banging on about immigration/betrayal and the like


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 1, 2016)

I'll just leave this here.
Tata steel crisis: UK government accused of putting China's interests first - live


----------



## gosub (Apr 1, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I'll just leave this here.
> Tata steel crisis: UK government accused of putting China's interests first - live



Yeah, but no.  As entirely rational as is to point out that the tories wouldn't be lifting a finger whether we were in or out of EU (disabilities in the budget proved the reluctance to spend on anyone who wouldn't vote tory), still highlights the difficulties EU causes for transparency and accountability - everyone  can say they are doing as much as they can while pointing the finger at everyone else, and we are none the wiser, meanwhile a load of blameless people in a strategically important industry get fucked over.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 1, 2016)

gosub said:


> Yeah, but no.  As entirely rational as is to point out that the tories wouldn't be lifting a finger whether we were in or out of EU (disabilities in the budget proved the reluctance to spend on anyone who wouldn't vote tory), still highlights the difficulties EU causes for transparency and accountability - everyone  can say they are doing as much as they can while pointing the finger at everyone else, and we are none the wiser, meanwhile a load of blameless people in a strategically important industry get fucked over.


We're not quite none the wiser. We know that the UK govt was a leading voice in blocking tariffs, for instance. I don't quite see how this highlights anything to do with the EU, aside from the fact that it would probably be considerably harder for the UK acting alone to impose tariffs than it would acting as part of a much larger block.


----------



## paolo (Apr 2, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> I'll just leave this here.
> Tata steel crisis: UK government accused of putting China's interests first - live



"I'll just leave it here"

It's the new version of ending a post: "Discuss".


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 2, 2016)

I thought the thinking behind this was particularly odious (it doesn't *seem* to be an April Fool):


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I thought the thinking behind this was particularly odious (it doesn't *seem* to be an April Fool):



how dare they take the title of 'britains grassroots out' campaign when that title is already claimed by Grassroots Go, headed by such worthies as tom pursglove, phillip hollobone and that wellighborough twat whose name escape me, plus nige falang


----------



## laptop (Apr 2, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I thought the thinking behind this was particularly odious (it doesn't *seem* to be an April Fool):



Is it S&M related?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 2, 2016)

laptop said:


> Is it S&M related?



Non-consensual apparently ...


----------



## brogdale (Apr 2, 2016)

Hmm...another poll showing a 'Leave' lead.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 3, 2016)

I'm still undecided.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 10, 2016)

No wonder they seem to be worrying...


----------



## weltweit (Apr 10, 2016)

Riklet said:


> I'm still undecided.


I'm not, I am definitely voting remain. The cost of being in is small, the economic benefits are massive, free movement of people is not to be underestimated as a benefit, and my lack of trust in our own politicians to do what is right for us rather than them, is more than outweighed by my feeling that the general will of the European member states to a future of trust, mutual cooperation and peace is a good thing.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 10, 2016)

Not gonna happen anyway.

Brits arent into any kind of radical change. Not even gonna be as close as the Scotland vote. Not when the big guns are getting their letters to employees out etc.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 11, 2016)

I got my Bremain booklet from the gummint today.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 11, 2016)

We got our leaflet today also.

My first thoughts were that it was a little light.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

Riklet said:


> Brits arent into any kind of radical change


people trot this line out all the time as if its a truism that we're a nation of stoic unchanging people when history- recent history too- shows this to be a lie

previously I'd have agreed that the 'big guns' and project fear etc would be sure to cause a narrow remain. But after this tax scandal I'm not so sure. They look weak.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

kabbes said:


> I got my Bremain booklet from the gummint today.


i got some shite pushed through my letterbox too


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I'm not, I am definitely voting remain. The cost of being in is small, the economic benefits are massive, free movement of people is not to be underestimated as a benefit, and my lack of trust in our own politicians to do what is right for us rather than them, is more than outweighed by my feeling that the general will of the European member states to a future of trust, mutual cooperation and peace is a good thing.


yeh but this only shows the paucity of your imagination and of your political nous. 

if there's a vote to leave, the people like nigel farage have got what they want and are very likely to find the dish not to their taste. what does ukip have to offer once this is over? fuck all, really. all the people who have nailed their right wing colours to the exit mast will, i believe, struggle to remain relevant post-referendum. nigel farage will be spending more time with his pint.

what an exit vote would throw up is a new political situation in which more progressive forces might do very well. we know we won't get socialism through europe, we know the eu would stifle any attempts at real change (see e.g. greece), but we don't know what a bit of hard work might produce in a new political reality in which the tories and ukip are struggling to adjust to.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 12, 2016)

The other Miliband has pronounced: Brexit 'an act of arson on the international order'. I've not read it so not sure whether that means he's for or against, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The other Miliband has pronounced: Brexit 'an act of arson on the international order'. I've not read it so not sure whether that means he's for or against, though.


who cares?


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The other Miliband has pronounced: Brexit 'an act of arson on the international order'. I've not read it so not sure whether that means he's for or against, though.



Against lol. The words 'an act of arson on the international order' alone are rather telling to me.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2016)

Interesting poll finding from what is supposedly quite a pro-EU part of the periphery...


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The other Miliband has pronounced: Brexit 'an act of arson on the international order'. I've not read it so not sure whether that means he's for or against, though.


he's mentioned 'our enemies' a lot there. Oh and 'our place at the negotiating table'

bland nonsense froma bland wanker


----------



## kabbes (Apr 12, 2016)

I have polled myself and found that today I am:

REMAIN 34 (+5)
LEAVE 28 (-3)
DON'T KNOW 38 (-2)

(Movements since last poll one week ago)


----------



## Santino (Apr 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The other Miliband has pronounced: Brexit 'an act of arson on the international order'. I've not read it so not sure whether that means he's for or against, though.


 He's just arson about.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 12, 2016)

kabbes said:


> I have polled myself and found that today I am:
> 
> REMAIN 34 (+5)
> LEAVE 28 (-3)
> ...



Is this the impact of the leaflet we're seeing?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

the tax scandal has made him contemplate spiteful out voting just to fuck them off maybe?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 12, 2016)

If we vote leave who here thinks we won't just be asked to vote again?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If we vote leave who here thinks we won't just be asked to vote again?


6 months of a real propaganda assault- this one seems a bit half hearted doesn't it? too busy crying over taxes lol. Then a re-ask.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If we vote leave who here thinks we won't just be asked to vote again?



I don't think so.  It would happen if Westminster was largely in agreement with remaining but divided as it is I don't see it happening.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 12, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I don't think so.  It would happen if Westminster was largely in agreement with remaining but divided as it is I don't see it happening.



Johnson has already said that we could use a leave vote to leverage concessions and then have another vote and he's with leave.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but this only shows the paucity of your imagination and of your political nous.


Or I am one of the few that isn't overthinking the issue.



Pickman's model said:


> if there's a vote to leave, the people like nigel farage have got what they want and are very likely to find the dish not to their taste. what does ukip have to offer once this is over? fuck all, really. all the people who have nailed their right wing colours to the exit mast will, i believe, struggle to remain relevant post-referendum. nigel farage will be spending more time with his pint.



I wouldn't want to vote out just to reduce Farage's influence. Farage isn't at all relevant to my thinking, imo he is wholly irrelevant.



Pickman's model said:


> what an exit vote would throw up is a new political situation in which more progressive forces might do very well. we know we won't get socialism through europe, we know the eu would stifle any attempts at real change (see e.g. greece), but we don't know what a bit of hard work might produce in a new political reality in which the tories and ukip are struggling to adjust to.


I don't think this is realistic. I see the likely change in Britain after an out vote being one of dismantling the social chapter, after all we have to compete in the world! The partial retreat into little Englander ish behaviour, the exodus of the remaining manufacturing, led by the automotive sector, and the likely loss of Scotland meaning a Tory England or rump is more likely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Or I am one of the few that isn't overthinking the issue.


come come no one could ever accused you of overthought.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I wouldn't want to vote out just to reduce Farage's influence. Farage isn't at all relevant to my thinking, imo he is wholly irrelevant.


it's not just farage, it's the whole tory brexit crew.


----------



## gosub (Apr 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If we vote leave who here thinks we won't just be asked to vote again?


Would actually be sensible.  Gear up for EFTA membership, put it to a vote and cauterize the Farage immigration lead lot.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Johnson has already said that we could use a leave vote to leverage concessions and then have another vote and he's with leave.



Yeah but only in a half hearted what's best for my career way.  I really think this is a massive issue for a lot of tories and their supporters.  If the out's won and a tory pm tried to get a re-vote it would break the party in half.  I just can't see it, unless of course the EU came begging with loads of freebies which isn't going to happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't think this is realistic. I see the likely change in Britain after an out vote being one of dismantling the social chapter, after all we have to compete in the world! The partial retreat into little Englander ish behaviour, the exodus of the remaining manufacturing, led by the automotive sector, and the likely loss of Scotland meaning a Tory England or rump is more likely.


so it's a choice between more of the same or taking a chance. and you'd rather be a little cog in a bosses' europe without ever having dared to dream or to try something which might - just might - lead to some positive change.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 12, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Yeah but only in a half hearted what's best for my career way.  I really think this is a massive issue for a lot of tories and their supporters.  If the out's won and a tory pm tried to get a re-vote it would break the party in half



A good reason to vote to leave...


----------



## weltweit (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so it's a choice between more of the same or taking a chance. and you'd rather be a little cog in a bosses' europe without ever having dared to dream or to try something which might - just might - lead to some positive change.


"might just might" but more likely wouldn't. A vote to exit is a jump into the dark, we don't have to remain in Europe at the integration level of France or Germany but staying in with our current arrangements is the most sensible thing to do.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> A good reason to vote to leave...



Sure but I can't see it happening.  You could just as easily suggest a small victory for remain will schism the fuckers but I don't think that'll happen either.  They are past masters of looking after their own and they know the best way to do that is to stick together no matter how much they hate each other.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 12, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Sure but I can't see it happening.  You could just as easily suggest a small victory for remain will schism the fuckers but I don't think that'll happen either.  They are past masters of looking after their own and they know the best way to do that is to stick together no matter how much they hate each other.



I am not so sure, I think that one factor that we all discount at our peril is the Atlanticist influence on the party. Ironically the most Atlanticist members of the party are often the most anti-EU but the USA desperately wants us to stay in, a lot of pressure may well be brought to bear that way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> "might just might" but more likely wouldn't. A vote to exit is a jump into the dark, we don't have to remain in Europe at the integration level of France or Germany but staying in with our current arrangements is the most sensible thing to do.


yes, it is a jump into the dark. but we all know the auld social europe's no longer on the agenda, if it ever really was, and if we leave then the remainder of the eu is not a sturdy an edifice as it was before. the uk leaving might prompt other countries to reconsider their position, and there would be a shortfall in the eu's income which would need to be made up one way or another. 

but have your safe 'i know my place' position. doubt you've the backbone to fight for a better world anyway.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If we vote leave who here thinks we won't just be asked to vote again?


I think the chances are very good indeed.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2016)

I might have posted this link before but this is what pretty much decided me on leaving (and yes I know our lords and masters are highly likely to attempt to negotiate a separate TTIP deal should we leave but I feel we have a much better chance of persuading them that it is not a good idea).



> When put to her, Malmström acknowledged that a trade deal has never inspired such passionate and widespread opposition. Yet when I asked the trade commissioner how she could continue her persistent promotion of the deal in the face of such massive public opposition, her response came back icy cold: *“I do not take my mandate from the European people.”*



Arrogance is not a redeeming feature especially in an unelected bureaucrat.

e2a that and the fact that Greece got completely fucked over. Just in case you were under any illusions, for me they were dispelled.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, it is a jump into the dark. but we all know the auld social europe's no longer on the agenda, if it ever really was, and if we leave then the remainder of the eu is not a sturdy an edifice as it was before. the uk leaving might prompt other countries to reconsider their position, and there would be a shortfall in the eu's income which would need to be made up one way or another.
> 
> but have your safe 'i know my place' position. doubt you've the backbone to fight for a better world anyway.


Is that kind of language really helpful? 

You didn't read ww's post properly, anyway. He judges that there probably wouldn't be positive change.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is that kind of language really helpful?


is this sort of bollocks submoddery really the best you can do?



> You didn't read ww's post properly, anyway. He judges that there probably wouldn't be positive change.


no i thought i would quote his post and make reference to it to demonstrate i hadn't read it


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I am not so sure, I think that one factor that we all discount at our peril is the Atlanticist influence on the party. Ironically the most Atlanticist members of the party are often the most anti-EU but *the USA desperately wants us to stay in,* a lot of pressure may well be brought to bear that way.


as their proxy vote in EU affairs one assumes?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> is this sort of bollocks submoddery really the best you can do?


Is nasty unprovoked ad-hom the best you can do?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I might have posted this link before but this is what pretty much decided me on leaving (and yes I know our lords and masters are highly likely to attempt to negotiate a separate TTIP deal should we leave but I feel we have a much better chance of persuading them that it is not a good idea).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


greece really was the nail for me. They'll do a deal, I thought. Its happened before. Then fuck all. I remember reading Varoufakis saying how he laid out a viable payback plan, terms etc- all worked out and solid. No response _at all _not even a 'we can't work with that'. Just complete silence and then a repeat of their terms. If they'll turn greece into a workhouse for electing a left government then they'll do it to anyone. Fuck that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> greece really was the nail for me. They'll do a deal, I thought. Its happened before. Then fuck all. I remember reading Varoufakis saying how he laid out a viable payback plan, terms etc- all worked out and solid. No response _at all _not even a 'we can't work with that'. Just complete silence and then a repeat of their terms. If they'll turn greece into a workhouse for electing a left government then they'll do it to anyone. Fuck that.


Varoufakis still thinks the alternative to the EU - the breakup of the EU - is worse, and potentially destabilising in a way that will cause the rise of nasty regimes. Coming from a country with dictatorship in living memory probably alters the perspective.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> as their proxy vote in EU affairs one assumes?



Yea, like de Gaulle said we are the trojan horse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is nasty unprovoked ad-hom the best you can do?


oh believe me your sanctimonious tone's provocation enough


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> oh believe me your sanctimonious tone's provocation enough


I was talking about your post to weltweit. Fucking nasty and unnecessary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I was talking about your post to weltweit. Fucking nasty and unnecessary.


i am as ever grateful for your feedback


----------



## Athos (Apr 12, 2016)

Anyone seen the  TUC's QC's advice on the potential impact of Brexit on workers, that's here?


----------



## gosub (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> "might just might" but more likely wouldn't. A vote to exit is a jump into the dark, we don't have to remain in Europe at the integration level of France or Germany but staying in with our current arrangements is the most sensible thing to do.



trying to get a bonzo dog doo dah band album played at a hardcore industrial techno night isn't sensible.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

Athos said:


> Anyone seen the  TUC's QC's advice on the potential impact of Brexit on workers, that's here?


link not working here m8


----------



## Santino (Apr 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> link not working here m8


Probably on strike.


----------



## laptop (Apr 12, 2016)

gosub said:


> trying to get a bonzo dog doo dah band album played at a hardcore industrial techno night isn't sensible.


Entire point of BDDDB!


----------



## two sheds (Apr 12, 2016)

Play My Pink Half of the Drainpipe to them. That'll get em going.


----------



## newbie (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what an exit vote would throw up is a new political situation in which more progressive forces might do very well. we know we won't get socialism through europe, we know the eu would stifle any attempts at real change (see e.g. greece), but we don't know what a bit of hard work might produce in a new political reality in which the tories and ukip are struggling to adjust to.


a while back someone posted an article from last year calling for a strong left/progressive Brexit campaign. sfaics there's a vacuum where it might be.  I might have more hope for hard work if I could see some sort of coherent beginnings.

The ones out there actually building the political groups, networks and positions are the tory and Ukip right.  If push comes to shove after a Leave vote they'll be the ones actually in position to attempt to generate some sort of new political reality.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2016)

Batting for project fear Christine Lagarde predicts gloom and doom for the UK though why anyone should believe someone who is facing trial on corruption charges is beyond me.

The IMF has warned that Brexit will create 'severe global damage'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Batting for project fear Christine Lagarde predicts gloom and doom for the UK though why anyone should believe someone who is facing trial on corruption charges is beyond me.
> 
> The IMF has warned that Brexit will create 'severe global damage'


another reason to go for it


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> The ones out there actually building the political groups, networks and positions are the tory and Ukip right.  If push comes to shove after a Leave vote they'll be the ones actually in position to attempt to generate some sort of new political reality.


tbh for one thing they're facing the problem of too many generals. will they be led by boris johnson? michael gove? who?


----------



## newbie (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh for one thing they're facing the problem of too many generals. will they be led by boris johnson? michael gove? who?


who has insight into their mindset?  Whoever it is that can harness a punchy, confident and genuine grassroots movement (which is what it will be if they win the ref) will implement policies I won't like. 

I'm much happier with your vision... how do we get there?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2016)

...and just on cue...



More grief for Cameron.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 12, 2016)

So what will the undecided 13% do , if they vote at all? Like it or not Britain leaving will be too explosive right now. Would Cameron actually act on a leave referendum result anyway. Wouldn't he wait and have another one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

newbie said:


> who has insight into their mindset?  Whoever it is that can harness a punchy, confident and genuine grassroots movement (which is what it will be if they win the ref) will implement policies I won't like.
> 
> I'm much happier with your vision... how do we get there?


follow me, comrade, and i will lead you to the promised land


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> So what will the undecided 13% do , if they vote at all? Like it or not Britain leaving will be too explosive right now. Would Cameron actually act on a leave referendum result anyway. Wouldn't he wait and have another one.


i think he'd have to resign sharpish as no one would have confidence in him


----------



## weltweit (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, it is a jump into the dark. but we all know the auld social europe's no longer on the agenda, if it ever really was, and if we leave then the remainder of the eu is not a sturdy an edifice as it was before. the uk leaving might prompt other countries to reconsider their position, and there would be a shortfall in the eu's income which would need to be made up one way or another.
> 
> but have your safe 'i know my place' position. doubt you've the backbone to fight for a better world anyway.


Are you really suggesting that Britain leaving could bring the whole EU house of cards down around them and that this could be a good thing?


----------



## agricola (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Are you really suggesting that Britain leaving could bring the whole EU house of cards down around them and that this could be a good thing?



It would certainly set a precedent, and at the very least it would cause the remaining EU member states to ask what the point of this glacial pace of ever-closer union is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Are you really suggesting that Britain leaving could bring the whole EU house of cards down around them and that this could be a good thing?


if the big words are too much for you just say so and i will use little words.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 12, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Is this the impact of the leaflet we're seeing?


We can only speculate on the reasons for the polling data, unfortunately.  Different commentators have different theories about the results of the kabbes poll.


----------



## Santino (Apr 12, 2016)

kabbes said:


> We can only speculate on the reasons for the polling data, unfortunately.  Different commentators have different theories about the results of the kabbes poll.


 Is it true that 40% of all kabbes are kabbes?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 12, 2016)

kabbes said:


> We can only speculate on the reasons for the polling data, unfortunately.  Different commentators have different theories about it.


I suspect that, at this stage of the campaign, a seizable portion of any R ->L swing will correlate with anti-tory (Cameron) sentiment, and clearly things have been fucking shocking for them for a couple of weeks. If/when we next start to see boats in the Med or another European terrorist outrage dominating the news agenda, then we might start to see a more significant polling swing.
But, once bitten, twice shy, the polls don't necessarily tell us how people might react with the reality of the stark choice in the polling booth.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 12, 2016)

Santino said:


> Is it true that 40% of all kabbes are kabbes?


kabbes


----------



## kabbes (Apr 12, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I suspect that, at this stage of the campaign, a seizable portion of any R ->L swing will correlate with anti-tory (Cameron) sentiment, and clearly things have been fucking shocking for them for a couple of weeks. If/when we next start to see boats in the Med or another European terrorist outrage dominating the news agenda, then we might start to see a more significant polling swing.
> But, once bitten, twice shy, the polls don't necessarily tell us how people might react with the reality of the stark choice in the polling booth.


I have certainly heard the theory that kabbes is anti-Cameron but it is unclear how that plays out vis-a-vis wider kabbes behaviour in the polling booth.


----------



## Athos (Apr 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> link not working here m8



How about this?:

https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Brexit Legal Opinion.pdf


----------



## weltweit (Apr 12, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if the big words are too much for you just say so and i will use little words.


Use whatever words you want but do try to make sense!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Athos said:


> How about this?:
> 
> https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Brexit Legal Opinion.pdf


At a first read (intro and conclusions), says about what I would have expected. An 'austerity'-minded govt would have a free hand basically.

Makes a good point about EU standards mostly providing a floor, not a ceiling, for rights.


----------



## Athos (Apr 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> At a first read (intro and conclusions), says about what I would have expected. An 'austerity'-minded govt would have a free hand basically.
> 
> Makes a good point about EU standards mostly providing a floor, not a ceiling, for rights.



Seems based on a false premis to me: the inevitability of capitalism.  And so presents a false dichotomy: capitalism with no protection versus capitalism with some protections.  Would rather see the TUC calling for the end of capitalism.  And acknowledging that the EU is really about free movement if capital and people (really labour) i.e. Marx's 'reserve army of labour.'


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 12, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> So what will the undecided 13% do , if they vote at all? L



They may just not bother turning up, depends if the 'fear' can motivate them one way or another.  I'd guess the 'out' camp will have more energised voters, as they want change, whereas enthusiasm for things pretty much staying the same isn't a big motivator for people.  Older people are also typically more likely to vote, and lean strongly to out.  It also depends on what the press will do, whether some of the euro-baiting papers will suddenly think they need to start acting responsibly and advocate the 'stable' option of staying in.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Athos said:


> Seems based on a false premis to me: the inevitability of capitalism.  And so presents a false dichotomy: capitalism with no protection versus capitalism with some protections.  Would rather see the TUC calling for the end of capitalism.  And acknowledging that the EU is really about free movement if capital and people (really labour) i.e. Marx's 'reserve army of labour.'


The EU isn't just about one thing.


----------



## Athos (Apr 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The EU isn't just about one thing.


So they'd have us believe.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Are those of us that worry about worker rights just dupes then?


----------



## Athos (Apr 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Are those of us that worry about worker rights just dupes then?



Don't be daft.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Athos said:


> Don't be daft.


But you react to specifics with theoretical abstraction. The theory doesn't account for the specifics.


----------



## Athos (Apr 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But you react to specifics with theoretical abstraction. The theory doesn't account for the specifics.



No, but the tension between theory/practice is hardly new .


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 12, 2016)

Whole thing is a stupid waste of time. The longer the time frame the less it matters. In 100 years who will care? But now? The EU is a product of the politics of the 28 member states - the economics, the crushing of Greece, the deal with Turkey - that isn't going to change. But in the short term there is a huge risk for the leavers. If worst case scenarios occur, there is 500,000, 1mn extra on the dole, years of negotiations to leave, higher inflation/rising house prices as a result of the fall of sterling, industry moving to a market of 415mn people instead of one of 65mn, Scotland leaves UK...then Nigel Farage and fellow travellers should stay clear of lamposts and rope. Could be very messy 5 to 10 years. Can't see any help for any kind of left wing movement, the UK right and far right could run riot if its goes wrong, first a huge shot in the arm for them, then play the conspiracy/victimhood card if it goes wrong.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 12, 2016)

Athos said:


> No, but the tension between theory/practice is hardly new .


I've been asking the same questions as that TUC piece on here for months. I've received no real answer.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 12, 2016)

Athos said:


> would rather see the TUC calling for the end of capitalism



Have you got a Che Guevara t-shirt as well?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2016)

Athos said:


> How about this?:
> 
> https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Brexit Legal Opinion.pdf


cheers, thats working


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 12, 2016)

kabbes said:


> kabbes



Do you have a brother called hodor?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 12, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I might have posted this link before but this is what pretty much decided me on leaving (and yes I know our lords and masters are highly likely to attempt to negotiate a separate TTIP deal should we leave but I feel we have a much better chance of persuading them that it is not a good idea).


You scaremonger you, there's no danger there



			
				the piece of shit known as Rachel Reeves said:
			
		

> The TTIP issue is being manipulated by those who want us to leave Europe, many of them right-wingers with no love for the NHS, in order to try and persuade voters to back exit.
> 
> Indeed, Boris Johnson himself wrote in 2014 that “there is absolutely nothing not to like” about TTIP. Leave campaigners are hypocritically pretending to oppose the concept of free trade with America in order to win a few more votes to their cause.
> 
> Let me be clear. I would not support TTIP if I believed in any way that it would allow American health providers to sue our government into breaking open the NHS, as some claim it would.


Of course you wouldn't you filth.


----------



## youngian (Apr 12, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> You scaremonger you, there's no danger there
> Of course you wouldn't you filth.



Where should I go next to establish what is factually correct with regards to TTIP and the opening up public services? What I don't buy from the Independent article is that national governments have no leverage over the sinister bureaucrats. But it's not Jeremy Corbyn negotiating its Cameron and I don't know why Rachel Reeves thinks she's a spokesperson for Dave's decision making. And I haven't heard him 'getting tough with Brussels' over TTIP NHS contracts. So if Reeves is correct you can bet it wasn't Cameron that did the running to alter the trading terms.



DJWrongspeed said:


> So what will the undecided 13% do , if they vote at all? Like it or not Britain leaving will be too explosive right now. Would Cameron actually act on a leave referendum result anyway. Wouldn't he wait and have another one.


Referendums aren't binding anyway and last time the losers didn't accept the result as shown by Michael Foot who put UK withdrawal in 1983 manifesto. Cameron would still be PM and there is no unified Brexit plan of withdrawal to give a mandate to. It's likely the government would negotiate for as little change with the least amount of fuss possible like Norway.


----------



## magneze (Apr 12, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> So what will the undecided 13% do , if they vote at all? Like it or not Britain leaving will be too explosive right now. Would Cameron actually act on a leave referendum result anyway. Wouldn't he wait and have another one.


If he survives that long he'll have to. So weak right now.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 12, 2016)

youngian said:


> Where should I go next to establish what is factually correct with regards to TTIP and the opening up public services?


Well you can fall in behind scum like Reeves if you want, but for me she's every bit as much of a cunt as Cameron, Farage, Duncan-Smith and the rest. If you believe someone who's done their best to undermine and destroy what remains of the welfare state for a second you're a moron.   



youngian said:


> last time the losers didn't accept the result as shown by Michael Foot who put UK withdrawal in 1983 manifesto.


Yeah like the SNP not "accepting" the results of the Scottish referendum either. Nice of you to confirm for everyone the type of dick you are.


----------



## youngian (Apr 12, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Well you can fall in behind scum like Reeves if you want, but for me she's every bit as much of a cunt as Cameron, Farage, Duncan-Smith and the rest. If you believe someone who's done their best to undermine and destroy what remains of the welfare state for a second you're a moron.


 I didn't ask what you 'reckon' but a recommendation to increase my knowledge of an issue so I can call someone a moron with confidence not just because I've had a few.



redsquirrel said:


> Yeah like the SNP not "accepting" the results of the Scottish referendum either. Nice of you to confirm for everyone the type of dick you are.


 The SNP do not have a choice, they don't have a majority in a sovereign parliament that can annul the Act of Union. A party with a majority in parliament can annul the Treaty of Rome anytime it likes. Anyway by your tone it sounds like you've had too much cheap booze and its time for bed.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 13, 2016)

No I just can tell the difference between not accepting the result of a vote and disagreeing with the majority opinion.


----------



## gosub (Apr 13, 2016)

youngian said:


> Where should I go next to establish what is factually correct with regards to TTIP and the opening up public services? What I don't buy from the Independent article is that national governments have no leverage over the sinister bureaucrats. But it's not Jeremy Corbyn negotiating its Cameron and I don't know why Rachel Reeves thinks she's a spokesperson for Dave's decision making. And I haven't heard him 'getting tough with Brussels' over TTIP NHS contracts. So if Reeves is correct you can bet it wasn't Cameron that did the running to alter the trading terms.
> 
> 
> Referendums aren't binding anyway and last time the losers didn't accept the result as shown by Michael Foot who put UK withdrawal in 1983 manifesto. Cameron would still be PM and there is no unified Brexit plan of withdrawal to give a mandate to. It's likely the government would negotiate for as little change with the least amount of fuss possible like Norway.



http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/july/tradoc_153635.pdf

T-TIP Issue-by-Issue Information Center | United States Trade Representative

I'd share you're suspicions about the hand of government, (past form) but the Europa document claims signed over power of attorney in 2013 (a superficial google finds no mention in the media at the time)


I'd say there is a unified Brexit plan, but there is no consenus on adopting it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 13, 2016)

youngian said:


> Where should I go next to establish what is factually correct with regards to TTIP and the opening up public services? What I don't buy from the Independent article is that national governments have no leverage over the sinister bureaucrats. But it's not Jeremy Corbyn negotiating its Cameron and I don't know why Rachel Reeves thinks she's a spokesperson for Dave's decision making. And I haven't heard him 'getting tough with Brussels' over TTIP NHS contracts. So if Reeves is correct you can bet it wasn't Cameron that did the running to alter the trading terms.
> 
> 
> Referendums aren't binding anyway and last time the losers didn't accept the result as shown by Michael Foot who put UK withdrawal in 1983 manifesto. Cameron would still be PM and there is no unified Brexit plan of withdrawal to give a mandate to. It's likely the government would negotiate for as little change with the least amount of fuss possible like Norway.


Like Norway? Norway has never been in the EU!  Important difference. Norway is also a much much smaller economy than the UK.


----------



## newbie (Apr 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/july/tradoc_153635.pdf
> 
> T-TIP Issue-by-Issue Information Center | United States Trade Representative
> 
> ...


Really?  

Certainly there's no consensus, nor will there be during the horsetrading after the result.

But a plan?  Really? You appear to have more insight than most!

I'm not sure it's a claim you've ever made, but can you throw any light on how much of that plan includes progressive ideas or possibilities?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 13, 2016)

Hmmm


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 13, 2016)

youngian said:


> The SNP do not have a choice, they don't have a majority in a sovereign parliament that can annul the Act of Union. A party with a majority in parliament can annul the Treaty of Rome anytime it likes.


This isn't really true. While there may technically be the power, practically such an act would be politically impossible without a referendum.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Apr 13, 2016)

magneze said:


> If he survives that long he'll have to. So weak right now.



You're right I had that thought before the referendum campaign and the Panama papers were published. The Tories are in such a state right now who knows what would happen if Cameron loses the vote. It's unclear whether Osborne is a much weaker position if he wants to succeed ?


----------



## andysays (Apr 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Hmmm




I've always been slightly suspicious of polls which attempt to predict how likely people are to vote, in this or any other election. 

Has there ever been any study to determine how accurate they are?


----------



## youngian (Apr 13, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Like Norway? Norway has never been in the EU!  Important difference. Norway is also a much much smaller economy than the UK.


When membership was rejected the pro-EEC Norwegian government set about negotiating a deal that was more or less like the one they would have seeked if they were members. I suspect Cameron would do the same thing. For example, even a controversial issue like ending freedom of movement would just be replaced with a fast-track work visa stamp but it would make no practical difference to the UK economy.


----------



## gosub (Apr 13, 2016)

youngian said:


> When membership was rejected the pro-EEC Norwegian government set about negotiating a deal that was more or less like the one they would have seeked if they were members. I suspect Cameron would do the same thing. For example, even a controversial issue like ending freedom of movement would just be replaced with a fast-track work visa stamp but it would make no practical difference to the UK economy.


You'd need to club together with Switzerland at least, to have the leverage to split freedom of movement of goods/capital from people within the Single Market(EEA).

 Not impossible, but not easy.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 13, 2016)

andysays said:


> I've always been slightly suspicious of polls which attempt to predict how likely people are to vote, in this or any other election.
> 
> Has there ever been any study to determine how accurate they are?


I expect so, as the likelihood to vote data is one key way in which the pollsters attempt to fine-tune the raw data.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 13, 2016)

youngian said:


> even a controversial issue like ending freedom of movement would just be replaced with a fast-track work visa stamp but it would make no practical difference to the UK economy.


I wouldn't bet on that. Given an energised UKIP/Tory right who would see an exit vote as an anti-immigration vote, there would be huge pressure to make such a system exclude people from, for instance, Bulgaria or Romania. There would be a demand to reduce the headline figure of net migration.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 13, 2016)

The thoughts of Arron Banks...


> I am thoroughly unsatisfied with the Electoral Commission’s decision for a variety of reasons that I will be making clear in my application for judicial review.
> 
> The tweeting by Steve Bell, the Chairman of the Conservative Party Convention, that Vote Leave had been given the designation the night before of the official announcement smells of political corruption from our high-minded establishment and cannot be allowed to pass without challenge.
> 
> ...



October? Oh, FFS


----------



## two sheds (Apr 13, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The thoughts of Arron Banks...
> 
> 
> October? Oh, FFS



Sounds good to me. Another 6 months of them slagging each other off.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 13, 2016)

youngian said:


> Where should I go next to establish what is factually correct with regards to TTIP and the opening up public services?



...try the German Economics Ministry ....

TTIP: A locked room, no internet access, two hours, 300 pages and lots of typos

_A German MP has given an insight into the surreal restrictions imposed around the upcoming US-EU trade deal, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).

Katja Kipping has written a personal account of her visit to a special reading room at the German Ministry of Economics that was set up after Parliamentarians fought and won the right to see the text being negotiated on their behalf by bureaucrats.

In it, she describes the extraordinary lengths that the German government has gone to in order to prevent any useful information on the trade deal being made public.

First, Kipping was required to book the room for a given period and was allowed only two hours to review the 300+ pages of the current deal (or 25 seconds per page).

Then she was only permitted to enter the specific room at the Economic Ministry by herself. She was required to leave her jacket, her bag and her phone outside the room so she was not able to take notes or otherwise record or picture the text.

That text was made available on one of a number of computers in the rooms. She was assigned a specific computer which did not have an internet connection. Before being allowed to sit down in front of the terminal, however, she was required to sign up to the "visitors' rules" – one of which is that she is not allowed to discuss the content of anything that she has seen.

As for the text itself, it was provided only in English, and like most trade deals was largely written in legalese – which can be incredibly difficult to decipher if you are not well versed in international trade law.

Exceptions
Despite all of these restrictions, Kipping still wasn't granted access to the full text. She was informed in the instructions on using the room that the deal's terms and conditions would not be made available as they had already been agreed – despite the TTIP still being under negotiation._


----------



## teqniq (Apr 13, 2016)

What a steaming pile of shit that is.


----------



## NoXion (Apr 13, 2016)

Blatantly dodgy, they've clearly got a lot to hide. Hopefully some brave soul will leak the documents so that it can be torn apart in public.


----------



## newbie (Apr 13, 2016)

teqniq said:


> What a steaming pile of shit that is.


yes it is



> "I read nothing to alleviate my concern that the US side wishes to make life more difficult for public and community enterprises and to secure better terms for transnational corporations in the battle for public tenders.
> 
> "I also read nothing to calm my fears that EU negotiators are prepared to sacrifice our social and environmental standards for the prospect of winning lucrative contracts for big European firms.
> 
> "I read nothing that would lead me to reconsider my previous criticism that consumer protection plays no part in TTIP other than to proclaim free market competition to be the highest form of consumer protection that exists."


----------



## laptop (Apr 13, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Blatantly dodgy, they've clearly got a lot to hide. Hopefully some brave soul will leak the documents so that it can be torn apart in public.


There are leaks of at least some "chapters" - I waded through ~180 pages ... Headache 

There is for example a provision hidden in a Schedule that *permits* the EU to exclude healthcare from the free-marketeer rules on services. Politically a terrible piece of drafting.

On phone so too fiddly to give links.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 13, 2016)

Big stat...


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i got some shite pushed through my letterbox too



Got mine yesterday and posted it to Downing Street with a note saying that spending £9bn on this whilst pursuing their austeirty/cuts agenda shows how 'in it together we all are'.

Should any leave material come through couched in anti-immigrant or pro-right/capital arguments they will also be going straight back to where they came from.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2016)

surely million not billion


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> surely million not billion



Yeah, million. I'm barely awake yet this morning.

I was going to put in a little doodle of a pig too but forgot


----------



## brogdale (Apr 14, 2016)

So, Corbyn's going to come out today as a remainarian.
Strange days.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 14, 2016)

brogdale said:


> So, Corbyn's going to come out today as a remainarian.
> Strange days.



It seems to me that he is reluctant at best, perhaps being strong armed into it by colleagues?  I guess he realises that the pp can't be seen to be split on everything.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 14, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> It seems to me that he is reluctant at best, perhaps being strong armed into it by colleagues?  I guess he realises that the pp can't be seen to be split on everything.


I reckon the prime driver might be to shoot the (remain) tories fox of blaming Lab/Corbyn if 'leave' wins. Along with 'left' tories like Chris leslie, they've already been making noises about how Labour would never forgive itself if it failed to deliver its core vote to the Government position..blah...


----------



## Pie & Mash (Apr 14, 2016)

Corbyn doesn't want another Tridentesque split so is falling in behind the remain camp for political expediency.

The new politics in action


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> It seems to me that he is reluctant at best, perhaps being strong armed into it by colleagues?  I guess he realises that the pp can't be seen to be split on everything.


I'm pretty sure he's always been pro EU? Certainly never heard a whisper of anti EU sentiments or that  brexit was ever under consideration as a position


----------



## JimW (Apr 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm pretty sure he's always been pro EU? Certainly never heard a whisper of anti EU sentiments or that  brexit was ever under consideration as a position


R4 this morning had them ambushing some shadow cabinet spod with a load of Corbyn eurosceptic quotes. He's been fairly anti it seems.
ETA just remembered it was smarm lord Hilary Benn batting away the anti TTIP stuff


----------



## kebabking (Apr 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm pretty sure he's always been pro EU? Certainly never heard a whisper of anti EU sentiments or that  brexit was ever under consideration as a position



i suppose its a question of nuance - i rather doubt, from anything i've ever heard him say, that he's massively in favour of the EU, but i bet that he's very strongly opposed to the kind of hyper-capitalist state the UK would almost certainly become in the immediate aftermath of a UK exit.


----------



## gosub (Apr 14, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> It seems to me that he is reluctant at best, perhaps being strong armed into it by colleagues?  I guess he realises that the pp can't be seen to be split on everything.



Conference voted to remain just before his election, any personal sentiment on this is going to be smaller than his aim of making the party more accountable to its membership.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2016)

huh heres me thinking st corb would be pro EU, it would seem to fit his politics better- unity and consensus building etc. 

see how his statement puts it later, thats where the nuance Kebabking mentions will be I spose


----------



## Pie & Mash (Apr 14, 2016)

Labour Eurosceptics accuse Corbyn of reversing his position on EU referendum


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2016)

gosub said:


> Conference voted to remain just before his election, any personal sentiment on this is going to be smaller than his aim of making the party more accountable to its membership.


of course thats another one, he can't be seen to be a hypocrite saying 'obey the wider party' then as soon as a big issue comes up force it in what hoey calls his 'natural and historic position' on the matter. The cries of stalinism would be deafening


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> huh heres me thinking st corb would be pro EU, it would seem to fit his politics better- unity and consensus building etc.
> 
> see how his statement puts it later, thats where the nuance Kebabking mentions will be I spose


It's perfectly consistent to say wrt your position on the EU that 'it depends'. You don't have to be ideologically wedded to the idea of the EU to think that leaving right now would be a bad thing for both the UK and the rest of Europe.

That said, as gosub says above, Corbyn has been clear from the start that this is not _all about me_. Many still seem to struggle with this kind of leadership, like they can't quite believe that he really means it, despite no evidence whatever that he doesn't.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm pretty sure he's always been pro EU? Certainly never heard a whisper of anti EU sentiments or that  brexit was ever under consideration as a position


He voted against membership in '75


----------



## gosub (Apr 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's perfectly consistent to say wrt your position on the EU that 'it depends'. You don't have to be ideologically wedded to the idea of the EU to think that leaving right now would be a bad thing for both the UK and the rest of Europe..



 Better then to wait another 40years until they deign to ask us again


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> He voted against membership in '75


me making assumptions (north london, leftie, cycles, veggie- bound to be a europhile? and probably is. But thats not the same thing as being pro EU is it)

unless that usernames ironic I give  Pie&Mash about half a day


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 14, 2016)

excellent he's using the statement to put the boot in on the tories

Jeremy Corbyn makes Labour case for staying in EU - BBC News


----------



## gosub (Apr 14, 2016)

TheyWorkForYou - Corbyns EU voting record


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2016)

gosub said:


> Better then to wait another 40years until they deign to ask us again


Possibly, yes. 

And work to change the EU from within.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> excellent he's using the statement to put the boot in on the tories
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn makes Labour case for staying in EU - BBC News



And agree with it or not, it's a fair statement of the main Remain arguments without getting into the scare stories of both tory sides.


----------



## gosub (Apr 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Possibly, yes.
> 
> And work to change the EU from within.



Makes you wonder why nobody tried that before.

20 years it took the reform a clearly disastrous fishery policy....


----------



## Pie & Mash (Apr 14, 2016)

The EU is unreformable as far as I can see, too much self-interest involved and too many ways to veto reform.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2016)

gosub said:


> Makes you wonder why nobody tried that before.


Do you think working for change outside the EU would be any easier to achieve? Given at least the first four years outside the EU with a govt committed to destroying the welfare state, what is there to make anyone think that leaving the EU does anything other than make it all more difficult to do.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2016)

Pie & Mash said:


> The EU is unreformable as far as I can see, too much self-interest involved and too many ways to veto reform.


Substitute 'Westminster' for 'The EU'. How is it different?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 14, 2016)

Pie & Mash said:


> The EU is unreformable as far as I can see, too much self-interest involved and too many ways to veto reform.



What reforms would you like to see?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pie & Mash (Apr 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Substitute 'Westminster' for 'The EU'. How is it different?



The power in Westminster lies in the HoC which is elected. The power in the EU lies with the Council which is not

The EU requires universal agreement for reform, the HoC requires a simple majority


I’m no cheerleader to for the HoC and the FPTP system but its democratic deficit isn’t as bad as the EU


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2016)

Pie & Mash said:


> The power in Westminster lies in the HoC which is elected. The power in the EU lies with the Council which is not
> 
> The EU requires universal agreement for reform, the HoC requires a simple majority
> 
> ...


As shown by the likes of the academy schools policy, this current Westminster govt, like many before it, is intent on hoovering up power to itself from below by destroying local democracy. I agree that the EU suffers from a massive democratic deficit, I just don't see empowering Westminster even more as any kind of solution to that.


----------



## Pie & Mash (Apr 14, 2016)

My original point didn't seek to defend the current Govt or electoral system that allows such centralisation of power.

I was just commenting on how the EU is pretty much unreformable


----------



## gosub (Apr 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Substitute 'Westminster' for 'The EU'. How is it different?



true, we don't elect a PM, same as under the current system we don't elect the Head of a Commission (the fella that gets to shape any reform),last time I checked though it was possible in this country to have voted for the party that put Cameron in charge,  Juncker not so much.


Every treaty has reformed as well as provided ever closer union. All emanate from the Commission.  This reform of which you speak -your consent isn't asked for or required.*

*Reform may be in directions you may or may not desire


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 14, 2016)

Pie & Mash said:


> Labour Eurosceptics accuse Corbyn of reversing his position on EU referendum



That's not Corbyn reversing his position, it's Corbyn leading his party in what he sees to be the national interest. You have to be a special sort of fuckwit - and most _Guardian_ journalists *are* - to not "get" that.


----------



## gosub (Apr 14, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's not Corbyn reversing his position, it's Corbyn leading his party in what he sees to be the national interest. You have to be a special sort of fuckwit - and most _Guardian_ journalists *are* - to not "get" that.


----------



## Pie & Mash (Apr 14, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's not Corbyn reversing his position, it's Corbyn leading his party in what he sees to be the national interest. You have to be a special sort of fuckwit - and most _Guardian_ journalists *are* - to not "get" that.



Bit harsh on Frances, it was more of a “he said this she said that” piece than an opinion piece.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 15, 2016)

Some more bullshit here if anyones interested,,,

Osborne's Mortgage Warning Over Quitting EU


outright lies!


----------



## brogdale (Apr 15, 2016)

Gotta lol at how principled the swivel-eyed loons are...


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 15, 2016)

The Tory wars

How the EU referendum exposed a crisis in the Conservative Party that will endure long after the vote.

BY SIMON HEFFER

A minister who is (just, and after much soul-searching) committed to our staying in the European Union told me frankly last week that the Tory party was “a mess” and that, whatever happened on 23 June, the referendum would be the beginning and not the end of a painful process for the Conservatives.

... The referendum is now just two and a half months away, and it is shredding the Tory party...

The unpleasantness starts with David Cameron. The conversation the Prime Minister had with Iain Duncan Smith when the former work and pensions secretary decided to resign is characterised by Duncan Smith’s friends as one in which “expletives were used”. Insiders believe that some of those around Cameron are absolutely ruthless. They sense the argument is going against them and they will do what they must to turn it round. The Queensberry rules do not apply. Hence the threats by whips, the sendings-to-Coventry, the cutting people dead in corridors, the meetings of a “White Commonwealth” of ministers that excludes anyone known or feared to be opposed to Cameron’s view.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 15, 2016)

What the 'like' button is for


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 15, 2016)

Heffer is such a cunt. 'White Commonwealth'? Of all the allusions he could have made... It's not even a very good one in this context.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but this only shows the paucity of your imagination and of your political nous.
> 
> if there's a vote to leave, the people like nigel farage have got what they want and are very likely to find the dish not to their taste. what does ukip have to offer once this is over? fuck all, really. all the people who have nailed their right wing colours to the exit mast will, i believe, struggle to remain relevant post-referendum. nigel farage will be spending more time with his pint.
> 
> what an exit vote would throw up is a new political situation in which more progressive forces might do very well. we know we won't get socialism through europe, we know the eu would stifle any attempts at real change (see e.g. greece), but we don't know what a bit of hard work might produce in a new political reality in which the tories and ukip are struggling to adjust to.



So we get rid of UKIP by giving them what they want


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> So we get rid of UKIP by giving them what they want



I'm with Pickman's on this. UKIP will end up a spent force. They'll have fuck all left to make any noise about 'how the EU stopped this and that' - they've got shit all else to offer as a party - one trick ponies on the Europe issue.

Farage doesn't even hate the EU that much - he gets a tidy salary plus expenses from it. It's all posturing.


----------



## gosub (Apr 15, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'm with Pickman's on this tbh. UKIP will end up a spent force. They'll have fuck all left to make any noise about 'how the EU stopped this and that' - they've got shit all else to offer as a party - one trick ponies on the Europe issue.
> 
> Farage doesn't even hate the EU that much - he gets a tidy salary plus expenses from it.



The anti EU bits of UKIP, I'd agree, but its predominantly an anti immigration party these days and which ever way the referendum goes that isn't going to get touched.  Leave and Nigel can whinge betrayal after we stay in the single whinge, remain and you've got Lab and Tory voters who aren't going to be happy with their current party.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2016)

gosub said:


> The anti EU bits of UKIP, I'd agree, but its predominantly an anti immigration party these days and which ever way the referendum goes that isn't going to get touched.  Leave and Nigel can whinge betrayal after we stay in the single whinge, remain and you've got Lab and Tory voters who aren't going to be happy with their current party.



All parties and their core voters in turmoil? Sounds like my idea of heaven tbh.


----------



## gosub (Apr 15, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> All parties and their core voters in turmoil? Sounds like my idea of heaven tbh.



all except the SNP I'd say


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2016)

I agree that there will be an anti-immigration party, whatever happens with the EU vote. But UKIPs immigration position is very firmly rooted in 'leave EU and we'll take back our borders' in regards to immigration. Given they've only managed to amass a single MP in all this time in Carswell (who defected from being a Tory MP anyway), and who's been engaged in a power game with Farage for the last year or so, I think UKIP have shot their load already.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I agree that there will be an anti-immigration party, whatever happens with the EU vote. But UKIPs immigration position is very firmly rooted in 'leave EU and we'll take back our borders' in regards to immigration. Given they've only managed to amass a single MP in all this time in Carswell (who defected from being a Tory MP anyway), and who's been engaged in a power game with Farage for the last year or so, I think UKIP have shot their load already.


isn't that due to electoral maths though? they got 4 mill votes and I know they have councillors and ward presence plus tons of soft support. I'm not sure leave would finish them.. Even the libs still have a shitty rump


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> isn't that due to electoral maths though? they got 4 mill votes and I know they have councillors and ward presence plus tons of soft support. I'm not sure leave would finish them.. Even the libs still have a shitty rump



Well probably not finish them tbh, but if the Tories have a leadership battle post a leave (or even a narrow stay), and through that they elect a new leader who moves the party firmly down a eurosceptic/stay out of EU line, then what effect will that have on UKIP? How many UKIP voters and councillors are basically lapsed Tories and go back to them?*


* I realise they've picked up ex Labour voters too


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2016)

(this is all supposition from me like, anyone with an informed analysis of this stuff welcome)


----------



## teuchter (Apr 15, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I'm with Pickman's on this. UKIP will end up a spent force. They'll have fuck all left to make any noise about 'how the EU stopped this and that' - they've got shit all else to offer as a party - one trick ponies on the Europe issue.
> 
> Farage doesn't even hate the EU that much - he gets a tidy salary plus expenses from it. It's all posturing.


Simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face - unless there are other very good reasons to leave. 

If there's a good argument to leave the EU then make it, but depriving Nigel Farage of his salary certainly isn't that argument.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face - unless there are other very good reasons to leave.
> 
> If there's a good argument to leave the EU then make it, but depriving Nigel Farage of his salary certainly isn't that argument.



I've linked to a few articles on this thread, one which put forward a pro-working class, pro-left case for exit. Did you read them? I'm not going to fish them out for you.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face - unless there are other very good reasons to leave.
> 
> If there's a good argument to leave the EU then make it, but depriving Nigel Farage of his salary certainly isn't that argument.



There are no good reasons to leave but I can't think of any to stay.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> There are no good reasons to leave but I can't think of any to stay.


I believe the clash done a song expressing similar sentiments


----------



## gosub (Apr 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face - unless there are other very good reasons to leave.
> 
> If there's a good argument to leave the EU then make it, but depriving Nigel Farage of his salary certainly isn't that argument.


Ah hadn't thought about the revenue streams (sorry, I do share your sentiment) not really relevant to the referendum, interesting none the less


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 15, 2016)

teuchter said:


> Simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face - unless there are other very good reasons to leave.
> 
> If there's a good argument to leave the EU then make it, but depriving Nigel Farage of his salary certainly isn't that argument.



Besides, if you'd actually read the thread, you'd know that my post above wasn't an 'argument' for leaving the EU - I was just supporting something Pickman's had said about what effect it might have on UKIP.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 15, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I believe the clash done a song expressing similar sentiments



If I go there will be trouble,
An' if I stay it will be double.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 16, 2016)

Cameron wouldn't last 30 seconds if he lost EU vote, says Ken Clarke


----------



## gosub (Apr 16, 2016)

J Ed said:


> There are no good reasons to leave but I can't think of any to stay.


Burn away the bullshit.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 16, 2016)

Today's caption competition…


----------



## Santino (Apr 16, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Today's caption competition…


Three people who used to lead political parties.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2016)




----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 16, 2016)

not a caption as such but honestly who wears a 'britain stronger!' t-shirt? 

'ENGLAND PREVAILS' etc


----------



## gosub (Apr 16, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Today's caption competition…



Yes Mr Juncker, I know I said Nick Clegg would be a good Commissioner, but I'm going to need another job.


----------



## gosub (Apr 16, 2016)

Why global governance is making the EU irrelevant


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 16, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> not a caption as such but honestly who wears a 'britain stronger!' t-shirt?



Britain Stronger in Europe is the pro-business EU remain group.....and yes they actually came up with the initials BSE....


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Why global governance is making the EU irrelevant



...the fact we've still got a permanent UN security council seat ( & use it pretty much exclusively as a US rubber stamp ) must seriously peeve a load of Brussels pen-pushers...


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 16, 2016)

Government realising that the changes to registration designed to reduce the students vote might backfire on this issue.


> The All Party Parliamentary Group on Democratic Participation will this week raise concerns about the number of people who are not registered to vote. Its chair, Chloe Smith, the Conservative MP for Norwich North, said: “The deadline to register to vote for the EU referendum, one of the most important political decisions of our lifetime, is fast approaching. With around 50% of under-35s planning to vote on 23 June – compared with 80% of over-55s – it’s now vital that young people take action and ensure they’re registered. With the outcome of the referendum likely to affect young people the most, whether that’s opportunities to work, study or travel, younger citizens shouldn’t be locked out of this once-in-a-generation decision. That means registering, sorting out a postal vote, and making a decision about whether the UK is better off in, or out, of the EU.”


----------



## brogdale (Apr 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Government realising that the changes to registration designed to reduce the students vote might backfire on this issue.


Yeah, not old enough for "NLW", not old enough to be arsed to vote in their referendum.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 17, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Today's caption competition…


They look like they're doing prank calls asking for "Mike Hunt" or telling the person on the other end to get off the line cos there's a trains coming.


----------



## youngian (Apr 17, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Some more bullshit here if anyones interested,,,
> Osborne's Mortgage Warning Over Quitting EU
> outright lies!


The threat of Brexit has already caused Sterling to fall so higher interest rates post-Brexit in order to retain the value of the currency is not fanciful.




gosub said:


> Why global governance is making the EU irrelevant





> The BBC was recently having fun with a lamentably inadequate history of all those long-controversial EU regulations laying down the required marketing standards for fruit and veg, such as cabbages, cucumbers and bananas. The point it wanted to make was that Brussels had finally recognised these rules as being “a little bit daft”, and so very sensibly repealed them. But what the BBC failed to tell us was that the reason they were all scrapped was that they have now been replaced by new standards handed down from another global body: the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) based not in Brussels but in Geneva,


 The bendy banana rules were always negotiated through the WTO in order to have common international trading standards. Christopher Brooker is a swivel-eyed loon conspiracy theorist who doesn't believe in any international institutionalism.


----------



## youngian (Apr 17, 2016)

Pie & Mash said:


> The power in Westminster lies in the HoC which is elected. The power in the EU lies with the Council which is not
> 
> The EU requires universal agreement for reform, the HoC requires a simple majority
> 
> ...


The EU council legislator is the elected governments that make up the membership of the EU. If you moved toward an elected federal executive like the US with the EP acting as the sole legislator you are creating a pan-European hegemony. The history of Europe shows that hegemonies ended in tears just as much as balance of power alliance systems. The EU was created as a fudge. It's not elegant or heart-stirring but the member states are still at peace in an increasingly chaotic global system.


----------



## gosub (Apr 17, 2016)

Pie & Mash said:


> The power in Westminster lies in the HoC which is elected. The power in the EU lies with the Council which is not
> 
> The EU requires universal agreement for reform, the HoC requires a simple majority
> 
> ...



Council s made up of the elected heads of goverrment (who do have some power), most power stems from the Commission -current system has leader chosen from outcome of EUropan Parliament elections. -who then allocates roles to the person each national government has put forward.  Current Head's party didn't even find it necessary to put up candidates in the UK (and yet we are going to reform the system some how.)  Major overhaul, these still requires complete consensus, a lot of reform can be done on QMV -and UK has got stuffed by that repeatedly.


----------



## ffsear (Apr 17, 2016)

youngian said:


> The threat of Brexit has already caused Sterling to fall so higher interest rates post-Brexit in order to retain the value of the currency is not fanciful.



That's nothing more then speculators jumping on the gravy train combined with the fact the the US increased their rates. Our interest rates are set by the bank of England anyway,  not the ECB.  SO i don't really see an reason as to why leaving the EU will cause rates to go up.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 17, 2016)

Libertad said:


> If I go there will be trouble,
> An' if I stay it will be double.



Double trouble being quite clearly worse than single trouble, I can't see why he found the decision so hard. Pop stars are shit at maths.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> greece really was the nail for me. They'll do a deal, I thought. Its happened before. Then fuck all. I remember reading Varoufakis saying how he laid out a viable payback plan, terms etc- all worked out and solid. No response _at all _not even a 'we can't work with that'. Just complete silence and then a repeat of their terms. If they'll turn greece into a workhouse for electing a left government then they'll do it to anyone. Fuck that.


And yet Varoufakis nonetheless thinks it's better to stay in, and change the EU for better rather than let it disintegrate and end up with something no better -



I think he's probably right.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 17, 2016)

teuchter said:


> And yet Varoufakis nonetheless thinks it's better to stay in, and change the EU for better rather than let it disintegrate and end up with something no better -
> 
> 
> 
> I think he's probably right.



LBJ said the same and I know his position, I invoke him not as a saint to follow but simply to explain who was writing about that stonewall of a 'negotiation'


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2016)

This is all part of his new 'Democracy in Europe Movement' isn't it? Sounds all rather optimistic reformism.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 17, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Sounds all rather optimistic reformism.



More so than the hope that for some reason the form of the UK governement will change for the better as a result of us leaving the EU?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2016)

teuchter said:


> More so than the hope that for some reason the form of the UK governement will change for the better as a result of us leaving the EU?



Well if you'd read this thread, you'd know I think this whole situation offers a pretty shit choice really. But, its more likely that government and governmental policy can be influenced and changed on a national level, than it is through Europe as it stands. At the end of the day though, capital interests still rule.

Besides, I'm not convinced Varoufakis, along with a mottley crew of Chomsky, Julian Assange and Ken Loach are going to able to achieve much, no.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 17, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Some more bullshit here if anyones interested,,,
> 
> Osborne's Mortgage Warning Over Quitting EU
> 
> ...



If sterling falls - as it has already under the threat of leaving the EU - its perfectly possible interest rates could rise. And one of the biggest spurs to housing prices in London after the financial crisis was the fall in sterling. It would also make imports that much more expensive, notably oil/fuels.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 17, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> But, its more likely that government and governmental policy can be influenced and changed on a national level, than it is through Europe as it stands.



This seems to take the premise that we are prevented making changes to national governmental policy by our membership of the EU. I don't see that we are. I asked earlier in the thread for things that the UK government has wanted to do, and been prevented from doing by the UK. I don't recall any good examples being forthcoming. And I don't see that the EU has any significant impact on who we vote for when we go to the polling station for our own elections. 

Perhaps you would argue that in, say, a fantasy Corbyn administration things would be different - there would be attempts to change things within the UK that would be blocked by the EU. I don't know. Maybe there would - in which case, the argument for leaving would change. But it's not the EU that is preventing that Corbyn administration from coming to pass, as far as I can see.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 17, 2016)

had a leaflet some time this week with front page about saving the NHS

inside it's saying to vote leave so that we can give more money to the NHS instead of to Europe.

I'm far from convinced that gove, IDS and the other tory twunts who are behind this give a flying fuck about the NHS.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 17, 2016)

ffsear said:


> That's nothing more then speculators jumping on the gravy train combined with the fact the the US increased their rates. Our interest rates are set by the bank of England anyway,  not the ECB.  SO i don't really see an reason as to why leaving the EU will cause rates to go up.


it isn't `speculators`. no such thing. traders `speculate` on the fundamentals of commodities and currencies. they don't place their bets to lose, they bet because they think - in this case - leaving the EU will hit sterling. and it will, it's pretty obvious. not only that it could keep it low for a long time as the negotiations go on.

People on the right and left who want to leave should recognise that they might win and the economic circumstances could be very bad for the UK and especially the poor. The richest as ever will be the least impacted upon, either way.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> it isn't `speculators`. no such thing. traders `speculate` on the fundamentals of commodities and currencies. they don't place their bets to lose, they bet because they think - in this case - leaving the EU will hit sterling. and it will, it's pretty obvious. not only that it could keep it low for a long time as the negotiations go on.
> 
> People on the right and left who want to leave should recognise that they might win and the economic circumstances could be very bad for the UK and especially the poor. The richest as ever will be the least impacted upon, either way.


Circumstances for the poor will be very bad whatever the outcome of the referendum. It is merely a 'choice' between the particular manner in which neoliberalism is to be conducted; either via the supra-state, bureaucratic imposition of market justice or through the free-market fundamentalism of the Atlanticists. In that sense the referendum is a massive distraction from the class war undertaken by the consolidator states on the behalf of financialised capital.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 17, 2016)

Best in all these cases not to make it worse. Problems with the EU are many-fold, but they are visible. The biggest problem with the EU is not the EU, it is the Euro. 

I still think the case put by the TUC in the link on this thread about how employees rights will be dismantled is the best reason to stay in the EU.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 17, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I'm far from convinced that gove, IDS and the other tory twunts who are behind this give a flying fuck about the NHS.



Well they don't do they? They want the break-up and marketisation of the health service.

However, the EU has already imposed its market and competition rules on the NHS too.

We can't really win - the EU is a neoliberal project based on opening up markets and competition. And so have all three major parties in the UK for years too - so voters haven't had much choice. And the EU has less accountancy to us as voters than our own government.

The EU does create difficulties for any member governments and re-nationalisation of industries. Just as Butchers said earlier in the thread that whilst we seemingly celebrate workers rights that have come from the EU, these are top-down (in some cases 15 years old) and are more about protecting capital interests of labour markets, not workers rights for workers themselves. Of course, we should greatly fear what a Tory government would/does do in regards to workers and other rights, but belief that the EU is some sort of 'restraining' force over them just isn't really true. Especially, as we found out with Greece, the EU will readily force an austerity agenda onto its members to protect its interests.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Best in all these cases not to make it worse. Problems with the EU are many-fold, but they are visible. The biggest problem with the EU is not the EU, it is the Euro.
> 
> I still think the case put by the TUC in the link on this thread about how employees rights will be dismantled is the best reason to stay in the EU.


They will be dismantled by the EU, anyway.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 17, 2016)

Really? What evidence do you have the EU is planning to change its various rights acts and legislation?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Really? What evidence do you have the EU is planning to change its various rights acts and legislation?


None, of course. 
But the trajectory of enforced de-democratisation of consolidator states will continue apace. Ultimately 'the markets' have to be assured that the honouring of their debt repayments will be privileged above all other constituencies. When austerity dictates increased 'productivity' through the erosion of employment rights the EU will oblige.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 17, 2016)

....for example France's social model is under sustained attack from the EU...sorry I mean they are "...encouraging _reform_..."

EU Commission vice-president encourages France to reform labour market

_...the EU has long been asking for a substantial labour market reform in France of the same calibre as Hartz IV...._

...that'd be The much-hated Hartz IV that _"....ultimately split Germany's center-left, led to the creation of the more radical and populist Left party, and permanently weakened the SPD in subsequent elections...."_


----------



## brogdale (Apr 17, 2016)

Latest (phone) poll showing NC from usual phone remainarian lead...


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 18, 2016)

Workers’ rights: The EU Dilemma



			
				MorningStar said:
			
		

> WITH the prospect of a referendum on continued EU membership drawing closer, trade unions and their members in Britain and Northern Ireland need to take a view on the merits of the EU.
> 
> For many, disgust at the EU’s humiliation of Greece, the supplanting of Greek democracy by rule from Brussels and the imposition of terms which even the IMF considered counterproductive will be decisive. But there are other matters to be weighed in the balance.
> 
> ...


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2016)

Just put a tenner on leave, anyone else?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 18, 2016)

What are the odds? 

I still think Remain will win


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Just put a tenner on leave, anyone else?


No chance, remain will have an easy victory - scottish style. Once the question is put to the pocket.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No chance, remain will have an easy victory - scottish style. Once the question is put to the pocket.



The Scottish comparison is useful.

I think that remain will win by a sufficient but not large margin; which is not the result I want. But that victory will do little to resolve internal Tory party tensions (just as the Scottish result didn't resolve the independence question)...which is a good thing. So silver linings and all that.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No chance, remain will have an easy victory - *scottish style.* Once the question is put to the pocket.



55% : 45%?

The favoured result for continuing tory warfare.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 18, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The Scottish comparison is useful.
> 
> I think that remain will win by a sufficient but not large margin; which is not the result I want. But that victory will do little to resolve internal Tory party tensions (just as the Scottish result didn't resolve the independence question)...which is a good thing. So silver linings and all that.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Yeah, that pretty much sums up my thoughts.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The Scottish comparison is useful.
> 
> I think that remain will win by a sufficient but not large margin; which is not the result I want. But that victory will do little to resolve internal Tory party tensions (just as the Scottish result didn't resolve the independence question)...which is a good thing. So silver linings and all that.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice





brogdale said:


> 55% : 45%?
> 
> The favoured result for continuing tory warfare.



Yep. That said, pretty much any result is going to cause trouble for them.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 18, 2016)

That is pretty much the only silver lining. Even though I will vote leave for reasons I've already given I feel we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Yep. That said, pretty much any result is going to cause trouble for them.


*If *I were a betting man, I'd be backing a R:L result of low 60's to high 30's, but 51:49 has to be the dream 'tory-killer' scenario.


----------



## kabbes (Apr 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Gotta lol at how principled the swivel-eyed loons are...


Ironic spelling mistakes ahoy!




			
				Politicalbetting.co.uk said:
			
		

> There’s a new YouGov poll out which has REMAIN back with in lead from the level pegging. Actual figures are 40% to 39% so all within margin of errot.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> *If *I were a betting man, I'd be backing a R:L result of low 60's to high 30's, but 51:49 has to be the dream 'tory-killer' scenario.



51:49, with the added comedy augmentation of only being carried by Scottish votes, so all those 'ENGLISH not BRITISH' types that pollute local newspaper comment sections collapse under the weight of their own victimhood.

I'm less confident that remain will carry it, down to the motivation to vote factor, but I reckon the noise as the day approaches might get people out.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> *If *I were a betting man, I'd be backing a R:L result of low 60's to high 30's, but 51:49 has to be the dream 'tory-killer' scenario.


 That's about my guess as well.  Respective turnout for yes and no will (obviously) be important but it's hard to get a feel for that, the whole campaign on both sides feels a bit flat.  Ultimately though, a significant victory for remain.  Also, very few if any defections from tory to ukip.  Whole thing has a damp squib feel, except for firming up some of the tory divisions.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 18, 2016)

At least there's a chance it'll shoot down Boris's chance for the top job, as a leader he'd be dangerous, and people fall for the whole 'bit of a character' routine which gives him better electability than some of the other weird specimens.


----------



## The Boy (Apr 18, 2016)

brogdale said:


> *If *I were a betting man, I'd be backing a R:L result of low 60's to high 30's, *but 51:49 has to be the dream 'tory-killer' scenario*.



With a strong Leave vote in England and strong Remain vote in Scotland, Wales and NI.  I admit that would make me chuckle.

edit:  damn you Dogsauce


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 18, 2016)

I've seen lots of articles from remain types getting hysterical about how shit their campaign is and the polls look tight. 
I still think remain will win  - but I think it will be pretty tight and a vote for leave is definitely within the bounds of possibility.  
Agree that a slender vote for remain will be the worst case scenario of the tories - amongst a whole smorgasbord of toxic options for them.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

My suspicion is that the DKs - the ones who are going to decide this - are going to go with remain out of fear they'll lose money and what they and their cheerleaders will paint as '_being pragmatic_'. In reality, that means they don't really care and want to be left alone with as little change to them as possible. That sort of approach is not going to be attracted to leave, to what is being portrayed across almost the entirety of the establishment, of those who have a public voice, as a risk, or worse as A THREAT.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 18, 2016)

There's more than a few posters on this board who are going along with that type of risk/threat message, as the last couple of pages of this thread show - "instability in the markets"


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> There's more than a few posters on this board who are going along with that type of message, as the last couple of pages of this thread show - "instability in the markets"


Allows them to suggest they're concerned for the _good of the nation _when they ask capital how high they should jump.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 18, 2016)

So the question for the left is - Who best to protect us from the inequities of neo-liberalism - the Daleks of the ECB or Atlanticist headbangers like Johnson and Farage?


----------



## teqniq (Apr 18, 2016)

neither really lol


----------



## magneze (Apr 18, 2016)

8% rise in income tax if we exit according to Osborne. Clown.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 18, 2016)

Surely the question isn't which section of capital is will protect us the best but what is the best way for us to attack capital


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> My suspicion is that the DKs - the ones who are going to decide this - are going to go with remain out of fear they'll lose money and what they and their cheerleaders will paint as '_being pragmatic_'. In reality, that means they don't really care and want to be left alone with as little change to them as possible. That sort of approach is not going to be attracted to leave, to what is being portrayed across almost the entirety of the establishment, of those who have a public voice, as a risk, or worse as A THREAT.


Yes, the radical free-market fundamentalism of the Conservative rebels comes up against the innate conservatism of much of their core support. I think there's some in the bubble who are mistakenly interpreting the high degree of Brexitism amongst local tory activists as indicative of widespread Leavism amongst their voters.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> So the question for the left is - Who best to protect us from the inequities of neo-liberalism - the Daleks of the ECB or Atlanticist headbangers like Johnson and Farage?


Neither of course, the question as regards this should really be what best will help disorganse the forces of neo-liberalism across europe and globally?

edit: as rs has said above already.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 18, 2016)

I know it's a pet hate of mine but ensuring that we don't sign up to TTIP under any circumstances is likely fuck up capital interests to some degree. It's a complete crock of shit.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 18, 2016)

But for most people the question will be - What option best protects me and mine? On that basis for most people its probably remain.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 18, 2016)

I imagine that you are probably right. My best case scenario is a narrow win for either leave or remain, as this is most likely to do maximum damage to the vermin.


----------



## Virtual Blue (Apr 18, 2016)

magneze said:


> 8% rise in income tax if we exit according to Osborne. Clown.



...throws toys out of pram.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2016)

magneze said:


> 8% rise in income tax if we exit according to Osborne. Clown.


I was just about to post that
UK would lose £36bn in tax receipts if it left EU, Treasury report says

For once, a below the line guardianista has it right:


> It's fun to watch Osborne turn his raw sewage cannon on his party's own base like this.
> 
> I mean, we on the left have been putting up with this for years - almost total fabrications, over-simplifications, outright lies and made-up numbers with only a tangential relation to reality released as a barrage on the public like an aerial bombardment of heavy bullshit bombs.
> 
> ...


----------



## teqniq (Apr 18, 2016)

Lol the indy strapline to this story has him saying that: 'Brexit campaigners 'economically illiterate and dishonest'. People in glass houses etc... This is going to go down like a lead balloon with some of the party faithful. Throw some more petrol on George!


----------



## binka (Apr 18, 2016)

What do we think turnout might be? Would a narrow win for either side on a below 50% turn out likely lead to questions of legitimacy from the losers?


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2016)

binka said:


> What do we think turnout might be? Would a narrow win for either side on a below 50% turn out likely lead to questions of legitimacy from the losers?



Its going to be a lot lower than the Scotish referendum. I can see some logic in Remain bitching about turnout if they lose, I don't see how that would work for Leave


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 18, 2016)

binka said:


> What do we think turnout might be? Would a narrow win for either side on a below 50% turn out likely lead to questions of legitimacy from the losers?


Definitely, and if in the unlikely event of leave wins it will be used in order to make the case for a second vote.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2016)

binka said:


> What do we think turnout might be? Would a narrow win for either side on a below 50% turn out likely lead to questions of legitimacy from the losers?


Remain winning, with less than 50% of the electorate + treasury hysteria will feature heavily in falange's post result speeches. 

I haven't seen much about it in relation to the referendum, but the state of the electoral register is one of the few reasons for brexit optimism.  From memory, Labour were talking about 1m missing voters at the last general election, largely young.  Since then we've also had individual registration.  That's all going to have some bearing on the percentages, if not the overall result.


----------



## binka (Apr 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> Its going to be a lot lower than the Scotish referendum. I can see some logic in Remain bitching about turnout if they lose, I don't see how that would work for Leave


I don't think the tory & ukip leaves will be too bothered about having a logical argument for the illegitimacy of a narrow remain on a low turnout. They are swivel-eyed loons afterall!


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

The idea of the vote putting a lid on anything - either in terms of formal party politics, or just the way that people relate to the EU in everyday talk - is a fantasy. No one really recognises the ultimate legitimacy of the referendum or the finished nature of the outcome. I certainly don't see why anyone coming from the same position that i do should.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2016)

binka said:


> I don't think the tory & ukip leaves will be too bothered about having a logical argument for the illegitimacy of a narrow remain on a low turnout. They are swivel-eyed loons afterall!



They walk on two legs too.  Which is BAAAAAAD!


----------



## newbie (Apr 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Surely the question isn't which section of capital is will protect us the best but what is the best way for us to attack capital


it's a great idea but there is virtually no evidence of any part of the British working class attcking capital for decades.  Is there?


----------



## newbie (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The idea of the vote putting a lid on anything - either in terms of formal party politics, or just the way that people relate to the EU in everyday talk - is a fantasy. No one really recognises the ultimate legitimacy of the referendum or the finished nature of the outcome. I certainly don't see why anyone coming from the same position that i do should.


There'll be a period of realignment, during which many tories will realise they've been hit below the waterline and sink, quietly or otherwise.  After that I reckon it'll neutralise the question as far as practical politics goes, in the much the same way as arguments about proportional representation became completely irrelevant after the AV vote.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

newbie said:


> There'll be a period of realignment, during which many tories will realise they've been hit below the waterline and sink, quietly or otherwise.  After that I reckon it'll neutralise the question as far as practical politics goes, in the much the same way as arguments about proportional representation became completely irrelevant after the AV vote.


This has been going on rather a long time and is clearly a niche issue with some material base within the tory party and right (and those outside but you you talk about the tories) - rather than a niche issue with a leadership who had a one-off chance at something like the lib-dem AV shambles. It's not going away no matter what the result. Could AV or PR have led to the multi-milion votes of UKIP etc in the elections over the last 30 years? if it could be quieted away in those 30 years, why hasn't it been?

Edit: re-alignment from what to what?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Not sure what that pic/attachment is - doesn't work for me.


----------



## newbie (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> This has been going on rather a long time and is clearly a niche issue with some material base within the tory party and right (and those outside but you you talk about the tories) - rather than a niche issue with a leadership who had a one-off chance at something like the lib-dem AV shambles. It's not going away no matter what the result. Could AV or PR have led to the multi-milion votes of UKIP etc in the elections over the last 30 years? if it could be quieted away in those 30 years, why hasn't it been?
> 
> Edit: re-alignment from what to what?


there's no doubt it's got a base, and those people are not going to vanish, but their political representation will be damaged by both the result and the subsequent purge of losers from most grassroots positions of influence.  Without the EU to campaign on trhey'll have to focus on other things, principally immigration. 



butchersapron said:


> Not sure what that pic/attachment is - doesn't work for me.


phew.  it was in the clipboard and posted by mistake


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

newbie said:


> there's no doubt it's got a base, and those people are not going to vanish, but their political representation will be damaged by both the result and the subsequent purge of losers from most grassroots positions of influence.  Without the EU to campaign on trhey'll have to focus on other things, principally immigration.


But they'll always have the EU to campaign on. They're not going away  - and their voice isn't dependent on on positions of influence. Bu those that they do hold, they hold by virtue of grass-roots support. To remove them is another battle - that's not how things work in the tory party. You don't just get rid of grass-roots influence as the result of a vote.


----------



## newbie (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> But they'll always have the EU to campaign on. They're not going away  - and their voice isn't dependent on on positions of influence. Bu those that they do hold, they hold by virtue of grass-roots support. To remove them is another battle - that's not how things work in the tory party. You don't just get rid of grass-roots influence as the result of a vote.


see I don't think you're right, but we won't really know for a year or so.  Normal people have been ignoring the EU obsessives for decades, making them largely an irrelevance outside their own organisations.  Now, with the first tory government for 20 years and the huge European immigration crisis, their time has come.  If they win, they'll purge from the top down, if they lose they'll be so demoralised that many will withdraw, others will be isolated and they'll (gradually) go back to being ignored.   

Is my guess- if it turns out I'm wrong I'll try to remember to come back and hold my hand up.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

newbie said:


> see I don't think you're right, but we won't really know for a year or so.  Normal people have been ignoring the EU obsessives for decades, making them largely an irrelevance outside their own organisations.  Now, with the first tory government for 20 years and the huge European immigration crisis, their time has come.  If they win, they'll purge from the top down, if they lose they'll be so demoralised that many will withdraw, others will be isolated and they'll (gradually) go back to being ignored.
> 
> Is my guess- if it turns out I'm wrong I'll try to remember to come back and hold my hand up.


But, you're wrong already - who was major calling bastards in the early 90s? It ain't going away. Each time people say but UKIP mean nothing, it's only euros - that's a significant amount of time it's gone on for and played a key role in tory politics ever since. Tying tory leaders to very narrow channels of action.

You cannot purge an idea - it doesn't inhere in positions. If it did they wouldn't be here.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2016)

Wilf said:


> I was just about to post that
> UK would lose £36bn in tax receipts if it left EU, Treasury report says
> 
> For once, a below the line guardianista has it right:



200 pages, and for me only a third is relevant, will persevere, but Mr Osbourne's actual contribution (the intro) :..._I promised to set out a serious and sober assessment of the economic facts, to inform this vital decision for our country. That is what this analysis provides._

No George, its a set of forecasts and modelling.  And if the Met office had got every previous forecast they issued wrong, Michael Fish coming on and saying it will rain tomorrow, FACT!Don't make it so.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> But, you're wrong already - who was major calling bastards in the early 90s? It ain't going away. Each time people say but UKIP mean nothing, it's only euros - that's a significant amount of time it's gone on for and played a key role in tory politics ever since. Tying tory leaders to very narrow channels of action.
> 
> You cannot purge an idea - it doesn't inhere in positions. If it did they wouldn't be here.


You are right historically and the nature of the issue means that Cameron et al can't be too triumphalist about this (and certainly can't mount a purge of the grass roots). It's also going to carry on within debates on EU immigration, or whatever the next issue is.  Yes, it's an unlanceable boil. At the same time a remain victory which gets 55-45 or better is bound to have an effect, for the rest of this parliament and in to the next.  'The people have decided, let's move on' will work for a while.

Perhaps the more interesting issue is what shape (and with what targets and alliances) does right wing populism take after this defeat.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Wilf said:


> You are right historically and the nature of the issue means that Cameron et al can't be too triumphalist about this (and certainly can't mount a purge of the grass roots). It's also going to carry on within debates on EU immigration, or whatever the next issue is.  Yes, it's an unlanceable boil. At the same time a remain victory which gets 55-45 or better is bound to have an effect, for the rest of this parliament and in to the next.  'The people have decided, let's move on' will work for a while.
> 
> Perhaps the more interesting issue is what shape (and with what targets and alliances) does right wing populism take after this defeat.


Effect on who though? It'll bounce off  anti-eu types.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Effect on who though? It'll bounce off  anti-eu types.


They won't change but, after the usual round of post mortems, their access to editors and tv studios drops off. It becomes a bit less easy to do politics.  Bigger issue will be whether they manage to keep their hobby horse linked to anything substantial in terms of real world dissatisfaction and alienation.  They might do, but they'll have to come up with something new.  It won't be a good time to simply say come and join our anti-EU party/grouplet.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Wilf said:


> They won't change but, after the usual round of post mortems, their access to editors and tv studios drops off. It becomes a bit less easy to do politics.  Bigger issue will be whether they manage to keep their hobby horse linked to anything substantial in terms of real world dissatisfaction and alienation.  They might do, but they'll have to come up with something new.  It won't be a good time to simply say come and join our anti-EU party/grouplet.


Their access _at this point_ is to pro-eu editors and tv studios. This is the high point of access. These people strangled the anti-eu voice for 20 years - didn't go away. It's not a hobby horse.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 18, 2016)

I'd say the likely outcomes are between a comfortable win for remain (57 - 65%) to a narrow win for leave. The latter would be an interesting outcome  - as it questionable that such a potentially drastic step is really justified on anything other than a big majority - and I can see the pro-EU sections of the establishment using exactly that argument - their will be more wrangles and probably another "Are you sure about this?" referendum - against a backdrop of the leave camp having hysterics.
Of course anything other than a thumping win for remain will have the brexiters cying foul from here till the next election.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Even a thumping win will not matter. And quite right.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> I'd say the likely outcomes are between a comfortable win for remain (57 - 65%) to a narrow win for leave. The latter would be an interesting outcome  - as it questionable that such a potentially drastic step is really justified on anything other than a big majority - and I can see the pro-EU sections of the establishment using exactly that argument - their will be more wrangles and probably another "Are you sure about this?" referendum - against a backdrop of the leave camp having hysterics.
> Of course anything other than a thumping win for remain will have the brexiters cying foul from here till the next election.


I would see no case for a second referendum however narrow the vote/low the turnout. It's not quite the same as getting a new treaty through - if a treaty is rejected it can be tweaked and presented again.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> I'd say the likely outcomes are between a comfortable win for remain (57 - 65%) to a narrow win for leave. The latter would be an interesting outcome  - as it questionable that such a potentially drastic step is really justified on anything other than a big majority - and I can see the pro-EU sections of the establishment using exactly that argument - their will be more wrangles and probably another "Are you sure about this?" referendum - against a backdrop of the leave camp having hysterics.
> Of course anything other than a thumping win for remain will have the brexiters cying foul from here till the next election.



Sort of similar view, Leave win, and government gear up to EEA (4th largest trading bloc in the world)  the immigration lead contigent cry foul and we have another referendum over that and the anti single market lot get stuffed.  Leave win, and we have another referendum without change would not go down well.
Remain win, we have another referendum over the next treaty which wouldn't be that long away.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I would see no case for a second referendum however narrow the vote/low the turnout. It's not quite the same as getting a new treaty through - if a treaty is rejected it can be tweaked and presented again.


It's irrelevant - who cares what the formal case for another one is?

And is that defence of what happened in ireland and other places?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's irrelevant - who cares what the formal case for another one is?
> 
> And is that defence of what happened in ireland and other places?


Not a defence no. A statement of practicality.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not a defence no. A statement of practicality.


I don't know what that means in relation to my post and the forced re-votes.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2016)

Phones still saying remainarians have it...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 18, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I would see no case for a second referendum however narrow the vote/low the turnout. It's not quite the same as getting a new treaty through - if a treaty is rejected it can be tweaked and presented again.



Leaving the EU would be a fundamental change to the UK's whole trade, economic and diplomatic set-up which creates big issues on things like scottish independence and the northern ireland assembly. I really cant see the powerful interests throughout the establishment meekly accepting a vote for leave unless its with an overwhelming popular mandate - and there may well be a lot of popular resistance to the idea as well. They're would very likely be another referendum offering various options from stay in after all, accept EU rules but dont take part (like norway) to fuck off out of it entirely. It will be very very messy.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 18, 2016)




----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2016)

I work with a team of forty engineers over four shifts and there are only two at the moment saying they will remain, six not sure and the rest want to leave. Of the remainder thirty want to leave because of migrants, no matter where they come from because that is the only cause of all our problems according to them!


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 18, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ....for example France's social model is under sustained attack from the EU...sorry I mean they are "...encouraging _reform_..."
> 
> EU Commission vice-president encourages France to reform labour market
> 
> ...



You are quite right the EU is largely neo-liberal. Lots of problems, economic policy sucks. The Euro is a fuck up. But it is largely the same everywhere around the world. The 28 member states have voted in governments for decades (maybe Greece Portugal aside at the moment) which follow these politics, leaving the EU won't change that, neo-liberalism is a much bigger issue. In the immediate future though, after a `leave` vote...are there significant economic risks or not? I think there are. It is however, a shit choice. 

As for the French state and its much vaunted safety network, fuck that bullshit (not yours, the French state), France has some incredible poverty, mass alienation and utter bollocks politics. It could start by giving its people work.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You are quite right the EU is largely neo-liberal. Lots of problems, economic policy sucks. The Euro is a fuck up. But it is largely the same everywhere around the world. The 28 member states have voted in governments for decades (maybe Greece Portugal aside at the moment) which follow these politics, leaving the EU won't change that, neo-liberalism is a much bigger issue. In the immediate future though, after a `leave` vote...are there significant economic risks or not? I think there are. It is however, a shit choice.
> 
> As for the French state and its much vaunted safety network, fuck that bullshit (not yours, the French state), France has some incredible poverty, mass alienation and utter bollocks politics. It could start by giving its people work.


What do you mean by economic risks?

And do you have any independent politics you may wish to forward? Beyond this market following I mean.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You are quite right the EU is largely neo-liberal. Lots of problems, economic policy sucks. The Euro is a fuck up. But it is largely the same everywhere around the world. The 28 member states have voted in governments for decades (maybe Greece Portugal aside at the moment) which follow these politics, leaving the EU won't change that, neo-liberalism is a much bigger issue. In the immediate future though, after a `leave` vote...are there significant economic risks or not? I think there are. It is however, a shit choice.
> 
> As for the French state and its much vaunted safety network, fuck that bullshit (not yours, the French state), France has some incredible poverty, mass alienation and utter bollocks politics. It could start by giving its people work.


This stuff, it's the classic nothing post.


----------



## Coolfonz (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What do you mean by economic risks?
> And do you have any independent politics you may wish to forward? Beyond this market following I mean.


It isn't `market following` imo. But one needs to understand ones enemy. You or I might not like the economic system which dominates the world, but it does exist. By risks I mean increased unemployment, rising costs, rising asset prices and so on...pretty standard stuff. It's how markets take revenge on folks who piss them off. Bilateral trade agreements? Subsidies for domestic industries? Increased employees rights? I don't see it. Happy to be wrong though.
35 years of neo-liberalism - and more - have brought about all these crises...people movements, Scotland, Catalunya, the rise of the FN and their friends. The financial crisis is central to this. And like you say correctly this vote isn't going to stop these questions about the EU being asked. It is - imo - a much wider and far bigger problem, so possibly fucking up the UK economy a bit more than it already is, won't bring about much positive change, I think.

I think you get my point.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> It isn't `market following` imo. But one needs to understand ones enemy. You or I might not like the economic system which dominates the world, but it does exist. By risks I mean increased unemployment, rising costs, rising asset prices and so on...pretty standard stuff. It's how markets take revenge on folks who piss them off. Bilateral trade agreements? Subsidies for domestic industries? Increased employees rights? I don't see it. Happy to be wrong though.
> 35 years of neo-liberalism - and more - have brought about all these crises...people movements, Scotland, Catalunya, the rise of the FN and their friends. The financial crisis is central to this. And like you say correctly this vote isn't going to stop these questions about the EU being asked. It is - imo - a much wider and far bigger problem, so possibly fucking up the UK economy a bit more than it already is, won't bring about much positive change, I think.
> 
> I think you get my point.


I don't think that you have an enemy.


----------



## DrRingDing (Apr 18, 2016)

Beefy backs Brexit: Cricket hero Sir Ian Botham URGES Britons to quit 'corrupt' EU


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> Beefy backs Brexit: Cricket hero Sir Ian Botham URGES Britons to quit 'corrupt' EU


Thicko right-wing cricketers(sportsfolk) have been mobilised this week; only yesterday Warnie & KP (& Dallaglio) came out for Goldsmith.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2016)

Zizek was just on C4 News. They were pressing him on an "in" or "out" position. I'm not entirely sure what his answer was, but I found myself agreeing with it


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2016)

chilango said:


> Zizek was just on C4 News. They were pressing him on an "in" or "out" position. I'm not entirely sure what his answer was, but I found myself agreeing with it


Sounds like a pointless fudgery. He didn't have any problem in choosing in the past.


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Sounds like a pointless fudgery. He didn't have any problem in choosing in the past.



Pointless, entertaining, fudgery with a dash of tubthumping more like....


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2016)

He was very pro-Europe as an idea. But wouldn't fully commit to an in or out vote from what I could tell.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Apr 18, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Of the remainder thirty want to leave because of migrants, no matter where they come from because that is the only cause of all our problems according to them!


In the Thatcher/UKIP loving corner of North Essex where I live this is the view of just about everybody I know, old & well pensioned or young & skint. If I try & start a discussion with any of them giving them facts & figures they just get angry & tell me I'm believing the lies & it's the fucking immigrants scrounging our benefits & NHS. There appears to be real anger here, they think all the current politicians Tory & Labour are corrupt cunts. I think what they actually want is some sort of revolution & they think maybe leaving the EU will bring this on?

This view seems very widespread & I don't think all the facts & figures in the world will make them change it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 18, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You are quite right the EU is largely neo-liberal. Lots of problems, economic policy sucks. The Euro is a fuck up. But it is largely the same everywhere around the world. The 28 member states have voted in governments for decades (maybe Greece Portugal aside at the moment) which follow these politics, leaving the EU won't change that, neo-liberalism is a much bigger issue. In the immediate future though, after a `leave` vote...are there significant economic risks or not? I think there are. It is however, a shit choice.
> 
> As for the French state and its much vaunted safety network, fuck that bullshit (not yours, the French state), France has some incredible poverty, mass alienation and utter bollocks politics. It could start by giving its people work.



Blah-blah-blah. How about saying something that *isn't* just a re-hash of points made in the previous 60-odd pages? Something like *why* the Euro is, in your opinion, a "fuck up", perhaps using the dollar and sterling as comparators?


----------



## mk12 (Apr 18, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> I think what they actually want is some sort of revolution & they think maybe leaving the EU will bring this on?



What makes you think they want some sort of revolution?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 18, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> In the Thatcher/UKIP loving corner of North Essex where I live this is the view of just about everybody I know, old & well pensioned or young & skint. If I try & start a discussion with any of them giving them facts & figures they just get angry & tell me I'm believing the lies & it's the fucking immigrants scrounging our benefits & NHS. There appears to be real anger here, they think all the current politicians Tory & Labour are corrupt cunts. I think what they actually want is some sort of revolution & they think maybe leaving the EU will bring this on?
> 
> This view seems very widespread & I don't think all the facts & figures in the world will make them change it.



Of course not. It's much easier to find a scapegoat, than to admit that you've been had.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2016)

chilango said:


> He was very pro-Europe as an idea. But wouldn't fully commit to an in or out vote from what I could tell.



I actually quite like Hannan's answer on this, probably the only thing he's ever said that I could say that of, 'Being pro-EU because you like Europe is like being pro-FIFA because you like football'


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 18, 2016)

newbie said:


> it's a great idea but there is virtually no evidence of any part of the British working class attcking capital for decades.  Is there?


I think that there is constant conflict between capital and labour and that to simply write off the entirety of the actions of labour over decades is pretty contemptuous of many people fighting everyday (admittedly often with limited or little success).  People haven't been/aren't currently protesting cuts to their communities? Junior doctors aren't out on strike? The biggest ever demonstration in the UK didn't happen this century? To write these things out of existence is insulting.

I think the above quite clearly feeds into the liberal/social democratic pro-EU theme that you support though, that the we need the nice enlightened EU to protect the backwards British working class from itself.

EDIT: I think it's characteristic and relevant that so many of those arguing for a remain vote talk about the EU protecting workers rights rather than workers using the tensions between national governments and the EU to force some legal protection. Labour is always passive to them.

It's one of the most depressing things about the arguments of those arguing for a remain vote, many of them supposedly 'progressives'. During the Scottish Independence referendum there were posters who argued for a YES vote, not because they believe that Scotland would suddenly become socialist (or even social-democratic) but because they argued that Scottish labour could better force demands on an independent Scottish government. Now whatever you think about the correctness of that argument it's at least coming from the right place, that (to repeat a line I used on another thread)


> working-class insurgency is the only force that renders the contradictions between capitals dynamic and capable of serving the Left.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2016)

Phones again...remain again....


----------



## newbie (Apr 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I think that there is constant conflict between capital and labour and that to simply write off the entirety of the actions of labour over decades is pretty contemptuous of many people fighting everyday (admittedly often with limited or little success).  People haven't been/aren't currently protesting cuts to their communities? Junior doctors aren't out on strike? The biggest ever demonstration in the UK didn't happen this century? To write these things out of existence is insulting.


aye ok.  Not my intention to insult anyone. I recognise plenty of people have taken individual and collective action. Mostly defensive and, as you say, not particularly successfully.

That's not the same as the "_best way for us to attack capital_", which is what you said and what I asked you about.  Attack isn't defensive.  Maybe it's escaped your notice but the vast majority of attacks are top down- the doctors are responding to attack, not launching one.

So rather than suggesting my question was some sort of veiled insult why not explain what you meant? 



> I think the above quite clearly feeds into the liberal/social democratic pro-EU theme *that you support* though, that the we need the nice enlightened EU to protect the backwards British working class from itself.


yes but I don't, as I've said before.



> EDIT: I think it's characteristic and relevant that so many of those arguing for a remain vote talk about the EU protecting workers rights rather than workers using the tensions between national governments and the EU to force some legal protection. Labour is always passive to them.


can you give a positive example of workers using these tensions please, because I'm not entirely sure what you mean.



> It's one of the most depressing things about the arguments of those arguing for a remain vote, many of them supposedly 'progressives'. During the Scottish Independence referendum there were posters who argued for a YES vote, not because they believe that Scotland would suddenly become socialist (or even social-democratic) but because they argued that Scottish labour could better force demands on an independent Scottish government. Now whatever you think about the correctness of that argument it's at least coming from the right place, that (to repeat a line I used on another thread)


by the same token I'm finding it quite depressing that people line up to make unsubstantiated assertions along the same lines in this referendum.  That labour could better force demands on an independent government. Rather than be forced by that government.

Which ignores that there's no evidence of an organised left/progressive/labour (small 'l') Out campaign.  The TUC and major unions and (big 'L') Labour support In, largely on old fashioned grounds like solidarity and internationalism.  That's pretty much dismissed by those who desperately want labour to be anything but passive. 

So how is labour to be in a position to take advantage of the result and force demands which actually restrict capital and improve conditions?


----------



## Cid (Apr 18, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> There appears to be real anger here, they think all the current politicians Tory & Labour are corrupt cunts.



Well at least they have one thing right.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 19, 2016)

...previous examples from the Osborne School of Soothsaying ....


----------



## Kaka Tim (Apr 19, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> In the Thatcher/UKIP loving corner of North Essex where I live this is the view of just about everybody I know, old & well pensioned or young & skint. If I try & start a discussion with any of them giving them facts & figures they just get angry & tell me I'm believing the lies & it's the fucking immigrants scrounging our benefits & NHS. There appears to be real anger here, they think all the current politicians Tory & Labour are corrupt cunts. I think what they actually want is some sort of revolution & they think maybe leaving the EU will bring this on?
> 
> This view seems very widespread & I don't think all the facts & figures in the world will make them change it.



More than anything id say it panic over immigration driving anti-EU sentiment. If britain leaves the EU the thinking seems to be that we can stop all those bloody foreigners coming over here. But what never seems to be pointed out is that this is bollocks - the NHS would collapse without overseas workers and London would probably cease to function - and then you have the issue of the many many brits working in EU countries. For an exited UK to close its borders would be economic suicide - it is not going to happen. They should be called on this bullshit.


----------



## youngian (Apr 19, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...previous examples from the Osborne School of Soothsaying ....



We know from Osborne and Cameron's narrative about Labour overspending that electoral politics is not about voters studying graphs in the Economist but emotion; do I trust the cut of this person's gib over the other person? It's ultimately a judgement call; if voters decide they like the look of Gove, Farage, Galloway, Boris, the Taxpayers Alliance and Putin over Osborne, Corbyn, Tim Farron, the treasury and Obama then Leave will win the argument.



SaskiaJayne said:


> In the Thatcher/UKIP loving corner of North Essex where I live this is the view of just about everybody I know, old & well pensioned or young & skint. If I try & start a discussion with any of them giving them facts & figures they just get angry & tell me I'm believing the lies & it's the fucking immigrants scrounging our benefits & NHS. There appears to be real anger here, they think all the current politicians Tory & Labour are corrupt cunts. I think what they actually want is some sort of revolution & they think maybe leaving the EU will bring this on?
> 
> This view seems very widespread & I don't think all the facts & figures in the world will make them change it.


It's a problem but not such as widespread as you some people think


Most people work or know someone from another EU state and have no problem as long they are not coming over to take benefits. Perhaps if Kippers stopped talking to people like they are shit they might also get a job beside a Latvian who has some basic manners and respect for people.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2016)

Something bleakly ironic about the vermin squabbling over some hypothetical hit to GDP, when together they've gladly presided over the real (class-war) thing in the name of fiscal rectitude...


----------



## Smangus (Apr 19, 2016)

Government U-turn over changes to trade union subscriptions - BBC News

Good news , but I wonder how much  of this was a trade off for the Unions supporting remain?


----------



## youngian (Apr 20, 2016)

Smangus said:


> Government U-turn over changes to trade union subscriptions - BBC News
> 
> Good news , but I wonder how much  of this was a trade off for the Unions supporting remain?



Not much but Corbyn's EU ambivalence during the leadership campaign was part of a union push to pressure Cameron not to water down social legislation as part of his renegotiation.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 20, 2016)

Guess who's coming to Britain to bolster the Brexit campaign? Why, only Marine Le Pen.


> Ms Le Pen, whose arrival is unlikely to delight mainstream Brexiteers, will appear alongside the former UKIP Euro MP, Janice Atkinson, who belongs to the same group as the French Front National in Strasbourg.
> The president of the French National Front is coming to the UK to campaign for Brexit



That's _the_ Janice Atkinson, who referred to a Thai woman as a 'ting tong' .


----------



## Smangus (Apr 20, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Guess who's coming to Britain to bolster the Brexit campaign? Why, only Marine Le Pen.
> 
> 
> That's _the_ Janice Atkinson, who referred to a Thai woman as a 'ting tong' .


This is getting beyond parody! Lol


----------



## sim667 (Apr 22, 2016)

French far-right leader Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit

Marine Le Pen will be coming to London to campaign for a Brexit...... I hope she's met by some serious fucking anger.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 22, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I hope she's met by some serious fucking anger


 
and by assorted fruit and veg...


----------



## weltweit (Apr 22, 2016)

sim667 said:


> French far-right leader Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit
> 
> Marine Le Pen will be coming to London to campaign for a Brexit...... I hope she's met by some serious fucking anger.


Yup, you meet the nicest people on the Brexit campaign!


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Yup, you meet the nicest people on the Brexit campaign!


No murderers in the stay camp of course. Did you put anything in that food bank last night btw?


----------



## gosub (Apr 22, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> No murderers in the stay camp of course. Did you put anything in that food bank last night btw?



would imagine most convicted murderers would prefer to keep their rights triple locked.  


 War criminals in the end realized anything they said was counter productive


----------



## weltweit (Apr 22, 2016)

Boris Johnson suggests 'part-Kenyan' Obama may have an 'ancestral dislike' of Britain

Boris, the masks slips.. doesn't referring to Obama's ancestry = racism?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 22, 2016)

It is odd that Obama has used the 'if you vote leave you can't be in TTIP' argument, surely most Brits don't know what TTIP is and of those who do most are against it.


----------



## agricola (Apr 24, 2016)

J Ed said:


> It is odd that Obama has used the 'if you vote leave you can't be in TTIP' argument, surely most Brits don't know what TTIP is and of those who do most are against it.



Most of his comments were odd - that one you mention, but most of all the _"If you leave you will be at the back of the queue for / it will take ten years to get trade deals" _- which sort of exposes the "special relationship" for the nonsense that it always was, is somewhat offensive given the cost of backing them over Iraq, Afghanistan etc, and most of all is not something he is going to have any influence over.  

Though of course he is probably just playing the US game of trying to ensure that the EU is as unworkable as possible, without collapsing or reforming itself along sane lines.  After all, if it did turn into a genuinely competent state (and especially if it expanded to encompass the frogs around the pond) the main loser would be the US.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2016)

redsquirrel I've been away and offline but was rather hoping for some sort of response to my post #1903


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 26, 2016)

You might be deluding yourself that your some sort of "neutral" but you certainly aren't convincing me. It's quite clear from your posts over numerous threads what you support. 



newbie said:


> can you give a positive example of workers using these tensions please, because I'm not entirely sure what you mean.


Scottish labour has been able to use the tensions between Holyrood and Westminster to block university fees and get free prescriptions. Personally I don't believe there's the same opportunity to use the EU to make similar gains but at least such an argument starts from a socialist base.


----------



## newbie (Apr 26, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> You might be deluding yourself that your some sort of "neutral" but you certainly aren't convincing me. It's quite clear from your posts over numerous threads what you support.



I think it's clear that I'm not convinced by everything I read on here. So what.

Whether or not I'm delusional I'm not making assertions about why people should vote one way or other in this referendum.  You are and I'm trying to unpick your reasoning.


> Scottish labour has been able to use the tensions between Holyrood and Westminster to block university fees and get free prescriptions. Personally I don't believe there's the same opportunity to use the EU to make similar gains but at least such an argument starts from a socialist base.


Those tensions were between two not-quite-as-bad-as-the-tories-but-still-free-market parties seeking electoral advantage. I'm not sure where small-l labour came into it.  In any event I agree the EU ref won't present the same opportunities, not least because there is only 1 non tory party and I'm certainly not delusional about the chances of that party attacking capital.

I'm asking you to stand up the assertions you've made that Out is the best way for 'us' to attack capital. Where is this attack coming from, where is the demand, who shows any signs of being able to exploit whatever fractures might appear, what possible reason do you have for suggesting that there is anything left/progressive/labour/socialist in place that could possibly make any gains?

It's a serious question, I'd really appreciate a serious answer.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ICYMI...I thought that some people in and around this discussion might be interested in this NS piece by Brendan Simms and Timothy Less from last November. Interesting to note what of their 'signals' have come/are coming to pass already...
> 
> A crisis without end




The gulf between the periphery campaign and the mainstream is now tear-your-hair-out bad - on both sides.


----------



## ffsear (May 10, 2016)




----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

Why, you twat, have you posted this?


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> The gulf between the periphery campaign and the mainstream is now tear-your-hair-out bad - on both sides.


Not sure I get this.


----------



## ffsear (May 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why, you twat, have you posted this?



You smart,  you figure it out!


----------



## ffsear (May 10, 2016)

Try to ignore whos taking,  just listen to whats being said.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Not sure I get this.



That, from six months ago was informed and added to the debate..Shows the tight rope we are on.  Even a month or so ago Lord Owen's intervention was as if he'd read it and was expanding on the narrative.  But then this week with Cameron's statement, so overboiled the incredulity it was met with, almost understandable -  not just from men who would be king but mainstream media "if there were any truth in that, why would we be having a referendum?"

People were complaining about the standard of campaigns for weeks, yet on current trajectory by the final week the two campaigns may literally be: "whibble!" vs "booong!"



In answer to the BBC flagship news question - we are having a referendum because through a domestic prism having painted upto the corners little else could be done.  But if you weren't noticing that when you were getting there then the game of Jenga you were simultaneously playing with your European partners was even further from your mind.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Try to ignore whos taking,  just listen to whats being said.



But she wasn't quite right, the intent for Federalism was there, to be completed to avert some crisis that popped up at a later date. One did 2008 and eight years on there still isn't the shared will of those involved to swallow the medicine,   even the current proposal for Greece is about kicking the can to 2018 - _an intractable crisis that lasted for roughly a decade and for which there was ultimately no solution now _where did I read that recently


----------



## bi0boy (May 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> ICYMI...I thought that some people in and around this discussion might be interested in this NS piece by Brendan Simms and Timothy Less from last November. Interesting to note what of their 'signals' have come/are coming to pass already...
> 
> A crisis without end



Not sure an article on the history of integration and disintegration of European states can get away without mentioning the Holy Roman Empire, which lasted for over 800 years. There are probably more lessons for the EU there than in Yugoslavia.


----------



## AnandLeo (May 10, 2016)

A simple and quick analysis of the in or out campaign lends the following inference.

There are undesirable financial costs as well as political and economic costs of staying in the EU, such as sovereignty, security and red tape. These are clear to see in qualitative and quantitative terms; at least they can be accounted with some effort. Similarly the benefits of staying in the EU are tangible and measurable. Besides there is a conception of corporation, unity, and collectiveness which may not be quite palpable.

On the Brexit campaign the benefits are largely uncertain, the accounts are less credible, and the risks attached to security, financial costs, timescales of negotiations are less transparent.

The dilemma for UK is that the benefits of staying in the EU are countervailed by intolerable burdens and sacrifices. Overcoming these disappointing disbenefits by leaving the EU involves uncertainty and unknown risks. It is a state of put up or shut up. If you don’t have the strength and confidence to take the unknown risks, one has to put up with and bear. Known devil is better than unknown devil. Even the nation state cannot escape the dilemmas of human conflicts.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Not sure an article on the history of integration and disintegration of European states can get away without mentioning the Holy Roman Empire, which lasted for over 800 years. There are probably more lessons for the EU there than in Yugoslavia.


Rome, Europeans - The Roots of Identity - BBC Radio 4  Rise of the Caesars?


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2016)

I think in all of this we've been missing the Biblical perspective. 

Luckily enough I got a postcard yesterday reminding me of the history of Europe and the freedoms we have and at what cost they were bought.

From Advent Books, they have a book The Great Controversy - 7th Day Adventists apparently. I was wondering whether the EU is the Great Beast and hoping they'd give me some Guidance on which way to vote, but I don't think they do.   I'd write and ask for their book The Great Controversy but that would get me on their mailing list.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I think in all of this we've been missing the Biblical perspective.
> 
> Luckily enough I got a postcard yesterday reminding me of the history of Europe and the freedoms we have and at what cost they were bought.
> 
> From Advent Books, they have a book The Great Controversy - 7th Day Adventists apparently. I was wondering whether the EU is the Great Beast and hoping they'd give me some Guidance on which way to vote, but I don't think they do.   I'd write and ask for their book The Great Controversy but that would get me on their mailing list.



Are 7th day Adventists people who believe you  shouldn't start banging on about Xmas in October?


----------



## two sheds (May 10, 2016)

Dunno. Second Coming was in 1844 apparently, though, and we all missed it


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

AnandLeo said:


> A simple and quick analysis of the in or out campaign lends the following inference.
> 
> There are undesirable financial costs as well as political and economic costs of staying in the EU, such as sovereignty, security and red tape. These are clear to see in qualitative and quantitative terms; at least they can be accounted with some effort. Similarly the benefits of staying in the EU are tangible and measurable. Besides there is a conception of corporation, unity, and collectiveness which may not be quite palpable.
> 
> ...



To a large extent that is down to the unfathomable way vote Leave are playing it costs, time scales of negotiations are far more knowable than they  make out, but they are muddying the waters because, apparently: if they outlined a plan it would be attacked.. 

  Difficult to gauge the security ramifications, EU has gone from not bothering to pass on intel that might of helped prevent attacks to high speed cross border gun fights in a month.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Dunno. Second Coming was in 1844 apparently, though, and we all missed it



Ah looked it up 7th day Adventists so called coz they think Saturday is the last day of the week.  (presumably not because Sunday is a hangover rightoff).   Nutters.   A religion that doesn't want Xmas decorations going up before my birthday, now thats something I can believe in, apart from the religion bit obviously.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Dunno. Second Coming was in 1844 apparently, though, and we all missed it


Curiously 1844 nietzsche born


----------



## newharper (May 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Ah looked it up 7th day Adventists so called coz they think Saturday is the last day of the week.  (presumably not because Sunday is a hangover rightoff).   Nutters.   A religion that doesn't want Xmas decorations going up before my birthday, now thats something I can believe in, apart from the religion bit obviously.


Err, don't most of us believe that?

Well, I still do but it appears Monday is.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2016)

newharper said:


> Err, don't most of us believe that?


No


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2016)

Saturday is the last day of the week, just look in any diary.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Saturday is the last day of the week, just look in any diary.


I'll have a look in yours pls


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2016)

This is all immaterial, according the pig fucking fella we're looking at WW3 if we vote to leave. If that is true it would seem a tad silly of the old cad to have called the referendum in the first place.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll have a look in yours pls



I don't have one, but just checked Frau Bahn's and each new week starts on a Sunday. Corbyn will abolish weeks in favour of days, awesome days


----------



## killer b (May 10, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is all immaterial, according the pig fucking fella we're looking at WW3 if we vote to leave. If that is true it would seem a tad silly of the old cad to have called the referendum in the first place.


that's the exact line the BBC news took on the issue yesterday.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I don't have one, but just checked Frau Bahn's and each new week starts on a Sunday. Corbyn will abolish weeks in favour of days, awesome days


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2016)

killer b said:


> that's the exact line the BBC news took on the issue yesterday.



Oh 


In that case;

WW3 will start if we vote to leave, it will be the end of days, if only the EU would have renegotiated a treaty or two it could all have been avoided, but millions dead is small price to pay.


Better?


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

killer b said:


> that's the exact line the BBC news took on the issue yesterday.



Whilst Boris and the bottom half of the internet was all guffawing about  ridiculous scaremongering.  The complacency is alarming, there is a real risk of cascade failing the entire continent.   But so to, are there large parts of EUrope who aren't feeling the benefit of this 'peace and stability' and we aren't in a position to provide 'leadership' address the problems of the EUro nor the impact of mass immigration into the Schengen area.  Careful treading is required.
 Mr Cameron , most likely just doesn't want it broken on his watch.


----------



## brogdale (May 10, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh
> 
> 
> In that case;
> ...


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


>



At least his week ends on a Sunday


----------



## Greebozz (May 10, 2016)

For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  Having no control over who comes into this country, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.

The sense that the fabric of society has changed irrevocably, Britain now a land of overcrowded spaces, shortages of accommodation and loud groups speaking in unidentifiable foreign languages everywhere.  Generally people trying to make Britain in exactly like the culture and country they came from.

It's depressing in the same way as a proud and dynamic business owner signing a dodgy contract and finding himself an anonymous wage slave with no power and no control over his businesses destiny.

The most painful blow of all is the British citizens determined to their dying breath to give Britain a way, let it be swallowed up by a European super state.  It's as painful as a parent seeing their own child denounce them to the authorities in some hideous totalitarian regime in history.

All the while more people come to Britain, delighted to be here, adventurers staking out claims as if uninhabited lands to be colonised.


----------



## laptop (May 10, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  Having no control over who comes into this country, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.



I take it you're planning to apply for a job as the UK Border Force so that you do have control.

Who will you be turning away?

Why?

Will you set up posts at Berwick? Hereford?


----------



## weltweit (May 10, 2016)

Reads a bit paranoid Greebozz there. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England have been united in the UK for years, we manage to cope without feeling diminished, being in the EU needn't be more onerous than that.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Reads a bit paranoid Greebozz there. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England have been united in the UK for years, we manage to cope without feeling diminished, being in the EU needn't be more onerous than that.


Did you miss the events in the six counties from 1969 on? Very fucking united, I must say


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  Having no control over who comes into this country, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.
> 
> The sense that the fabric of society has changed irrevocably, Britain now a land of overcrowded spaces, shortages of accommodation and loud groups speaking in unidentifiable foreign languages everywhere.  Generally people trying to make Britain in exactly like the culture and country they came from.
> 
> ...


What drivel.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (May 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


>




It's not set in stone. Or pen for that matter.

He almost had to bill us for a new diary there


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 10, 2016)

laptop said:


> I take it you're planning to apply for a job as the UK Border Force so that you do have control.
> 
> Who will you be turning away?



Guessing it won't be Danish folk.


----------



## Greebozz (May 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What drivel.


oh god so you're one of the Nazi youth denouncing their parents. Are you one of the volunteer moral police that has such self-hatred towards the country you want to see it destroyed.  Or are you an immigrant yourself?


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> oh god so you're one of the Nazi youth denouncing their parents. Are you one of the volunteer moral police that has such self-hatred towards the country you want to see it destroyed.  Or are you an immigrant yourself?


More drivel. Racist drivel at that.


----------



## weltweit (May 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Did you miss the events in the six counties from 1969 on? Very fucking united, I must say


hmm.

Interesting though that there is a movement in Scotland to gain independence from the UK but not from the EU, and in Catalonia there is also a movement to gain independence from Spain but not from the EU.


----------



## Greebozz (May 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> More drivel. Racist drivel at that.


I've written something which is exactly how I feel, I put time and effort into it.  You can't argue with how I feel, and you've written two dumb comments,  "Drivel, racist drivel", that's your sum total.  I'm not replying to you I'm replying to the hundreds of people who read this board but don't post comments.


----------



## weltweit (May 10, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  Having no control over who comes into this country, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.
> 
> The sense that the fabric of society has changed irrevocably, Britain now a land of overcrowded spaces, shortages of accommodation and loud groups speaking in unidentifiable foreign languages everywhere.  Generally people trying to make Britain in exactly like the culture and country they came from.
> 
> ...


Do you think California feels conquered and subjugated? or Florida, NY?


----------



## butchersapron (May 10, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I've written something which is exactly how I feel, I put time and effort into it.  You can't argue with how I feel, and you've written two dumb comments,  "Drivel, racist drivel", that's your sum total.  I'm not replying to you I'm replying to the hundreds of people who read this board but don't post comments.


Lucky us. Save us the time reading more drivel.

_Boo hoo, i really think this stupid paranoid racist thing and i spent a good 10 minutes writing it. Respect me and my drivel._


----------



## irf520 (May 10, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is all immaterial, according the pig fucking fella we're looking at WW3 if we vote to leave. If that is true it would seem a tad silly of the old cad to have called the referendum in the first place.



Especially considering that he was supposedly "prepared to leave" if he didn't get what he wanted during his "renegotiation":

David Cameron: I'm ready to lead Britain out of Europe if migrant reforms fail


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Did you miss the events in the six counties from 1969 on? Very fucking united, I must say


One of Heaths mutterings was EUrope would make the troubles irrelevant. 

Shame about the fractionalism it's caused elsewhere..... 

UK is going to have to federalize if it does get through this (not easy identities of places like Hampshire don't fit well into those structures) 


If Salmond had said he was going race rUK into EFTA, I might of voted Yes.


----------



## weltweit (May 10, 2016)

I see IDS today trying to position himself as the champion of the underdog again.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

irf520 said:


> Especially considering that he was supposedly "prepared to leave" if he didn't get what he wanted during his "renegotiation":
> 
> David Cameron: I'm ready to lead Britain out of Europe if migrant reforms fail


I can buy that his 'negotiations' (he got fuck all)  was a learning curve on how precarious the EU is at the mo.


----------



## gosub (May 10, 2016)

For all his and Corbyn's talk of staying in , and providing leadership, negotiations should have included an exit mechanism for the EUro, IF we stay in, it doesn't collapse through its own contradictions that puts us on bad guy side on a war.  We still end up as an outer orbit associate that will be lonelier than we'd like.


----------



## Obediah Marsh (May 10, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  *Having no control over who comes into this country*, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.


The British government has full control over who comes into this country. Claims to the contrary are ignorant or dishonest.


----------



## Obediah Marsh (May 11, 2016)

If a protectionist U.S. administration decides to pummel British exporters, what can Britain do to defend itself? If that were to happen now, there would be immediate EU-wide retaliatory tariffs on U.S. exports. That's a powerful insurance policy. Britain on its own simply wouldn't have that kind of clout.


----------



## gosub (May 11, 2016)

brogdale said:


>




Probably worth pointing out that vote Leave's offical position is that  matters post a leave vote down to the government


----------



## gosub (May 11, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> If a protectionist U.S. administration decides to pummel British exporters, what can Britain do to defend itself? If that were to happen now, there would be immediate EU-wide retaliatory tariffs on U.S. exports. That's a powerful insurance policy. Britain on its own simply wouldn't have that kind of clout.


Hypothetical, in that current position is TTIP negotiations, but not implausible looking at US Presidentials. Swiss relationship with EU is shakey, EFTA with UK and Switzerland in it 4th largest trading bloc in the world


----------



## bi0boy (May 11, 2016)

First they came for the vacuum cleaners: EU to launch kettle and toaster crackdown after Brexit vote


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> First they came for the vacuum cleaners: EU to launch kettle and toaster crackdown after Brexit vote



They keep re-hashing this one. Still, easier to concentrate on stuff like this than their own class/capital interests.


----------



## Greebozz (May 11, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Do you think California feels conquered and subjugated? or Florida, NY?


I had A "Free Tibet" T-shirt one time, I wonder how they feel about the convoys of Chinese people immigrating to their country.  Britain seems to be the only country that has a anti-nationalism police force but every culture, religion and race the comes to Britain is an nationalistic to their own country to the most incredible extent.  Because we don't really mix with other communities, don't get me wrong the intelligent people do, there are good honourable people everywhere but there is another strata, a dumber powerbase interested in control and furthering their own interests.

I love British culture, I feel we importing people who don't know what British culture is and are bringing their own backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests to this country for their own gain.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I love British culture, I feel we importing people who don't know what British culture is and are bringing their own backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests to this country for their own gain.



Fuck off. Cheers.


----------



## teqniq (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Because we don't really mix with other communities, don't get me wrong the intelligent people do, there are good honourable people everywhere




Make your mind up, anyway this is proper car-crash shit.


----------



## newbie (May 11, 2016)

Obediah Marsh said:


> If a protectionist U.S. administration decides to pummel British exporters, what can Britain do to defend itself? If that were to happen now, there would be immediate EU-wide retaliatory tariffs on U.S. exports. That's a powerful insurance policy. Britain on its own simply wouldn't have that kind of clout.


That's not the hypothetical that's most likely though, the US has bigger fish to fry.  What's more likely is a post-Brexit UK government under domestic political and capital pressure will do the pummeling itself. Tear up as much social, economic, financial and employment regulations and protections as they can.  Turn Britain into an offshore tax bridgehead into, but also in direct competition with, the more regulated EU.  As soon as the vote is in, if they win the Leavers will be clamouring to_ make Britain competitive_, they won't need a protectionist US administration, although they'll welcome any assistance they can get.  

And no-one has yet given any indication of what forces there are in society to stop them, except that some EU regulations will continue.


----------



## Greebozz (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Fuck off. Cheers.


You've insulted me I'm going to insult you back.  You have a very bad haircut which looks stupid, your friends don't really like you and you are a disappointment to your parents.  Your comments sound really dumb and you are a complete waster who will achieve nothing today apart from sitting around playing on their computer eating junk food putting on even more weight.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 11, 2016)

classy


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I love British culture, I feel we importing people who don't know what British culture is and are bringing their own backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests to this country for their own gain.


What is "British culture"? 

As for "backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests", you're something of a purveyor. No?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I put time and effort into it.


I doubt that. Your efforts on these boards being a testament to that. The word I'd use is 'slapdash'.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.


Yeah? And where is this "conquered and subjugated country" of which you speak?


----------



## Ranbay (May 11, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> What is "British culture"?
> 
> As for "backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests", you're something of a purveyor. No?


----------



## brogdale (May 11, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Yeah? And where is this "conquered and subjugated country" of which you speak?


----------



## Ranbay (May 11, 2016)

....... and snorting coke off bog seats.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>


More English than British, surely?


----------



## Ranbay (May 11, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> More English than British, surely?



moving large stones all over the place then?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

British culture: robbing people blind and telling them it's 'good for them' and rewarding spivs with peerages, while telling people they're 'wealth creators'. Howzat?


----------



## bi0boy (May 11, 2016)

Ranbay said:


>



That's a Spanish/Italian import apparently.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> You've insulted me I'm going to insult you back.  You have a very bad haircut which looks stupid, your friends don't really like you and you are a disappointment to your parents.  Your comments sound really dumb and you are a complete waster who will achieve nothing today apart from sitting around playing on their computer eating junk food putting on even more weight.



Heh, psychologist not likely to be a good career path for you then


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Heh, psychologist not likely to be a good career path for you then


not to mention Greebozz's famous antipathy to statistics


----------



## Pickman's model (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  Having no control over who comes into this country, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.
> 
> The sense that the fabric of society has changed irrevocably, Britain now a land of overcrowded spaces, shortages of accommodation and loud groups speaking in unidentifiable foreign languages everywhere.  Generally people trying to make Britain in exactly like the culture and country they came from.
> 
> ...


why don't you fuck off then?


----------



## Libertad (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Heh, psychologist not likely to be a good career path for you then


----------



## weltweit (May 11, 2016)

Gordon Brown says quitting EU would not be British - BBC News


----------



## YouSir (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  Having no control over who comes into this country, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.
> 
> The sense that the fabric of society has changed irrevocably, Britain now a land of overcrowded spaces, shortages of accommodation and loud groups speaking in unidentifiable foreign languages everywhere.  Generally people trying to make Britain in exactly like the culture and country they came from.
> 
> ...



I like your little flourishes there 'adventurers staking out claims' and the like. I can see that yes, you have put real effort into finding a way to say 'I don't like forriners'. Very creative. Now do it as a Haiku.


----------



## andysays (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> You've insulted me I'm going to insult you back.  You have a very bad haircut which looks stupid, your friends don't really like you and you are a disappointment to your parents.  Your comments sound really dumb and you are a complete waster who will achieve nothing today apart from sitting around playing on their computer eating junk food putting on even more weight.



For the record, I think stethoscope has a fine haircut, but unless you can demonstrate that her hairstyle will somehow be affected by the EU ref, I can't really see what any of your post has to do with the subject of this thread


----------



## treelover (May 11, 2016)

> "The endless procession of 44-tonne juggernauts hauling past the BP garage day and night offered a clue as to why this quiet rural town had become a hub for crime. The Fens – the bleak, marshy flatlands of East Anglia – produce more than a third of the UK’s vegetables and are a powerhouse of agricultural exports. The constant “just-in-time” replenishment of goods at the heart of today’s retail and manufacturing business models requires an equally constant replenishment of workers, ordered at short notice. To turn labour on and off like a tap you need a surplus, just waiting for the late-night text, desperate enough to take 12 hours’ work one day, and nothing the next. That pool has itself required constant replenishment with new arrivals of changing nationalities, in repeated waves of immigration, since only the newly arrived or the vulnerable will put up with the conditions.
> 
> The gangsters on England's doorstep | Felicity Lawrence
> 
> ...


----------



## Libertad (May 11, 2016)

andysays said:


> For the record, I think stethoscope has a fine haircut, but unless you can demonstrate that her hairstyle will somehow be affected by the EU ref, I can't really see what any of your post has to do with the subject of this thread



So long as the referendum has no effect on stethoscope's football allegiance then I'll be happy.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Libertad said:


> So long as the referendum has no effect on stethoscope's football allegiance then I'll be happy.



_West Ham til I die, I'm West..._


----------



## Greebozz (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Heh, psychologist not likely to be a good career path for you then


Actually you reacted to that really well, I'm impressed, I was trying to put you in a box as if I know stuff about you.


----------



## The39thStep (May 11, 2016)

It's a good article, makes you wonder whether the UK agricultural market would collapse in that area as its business model ( in many ways responding to the supermakets business model) seems entirely unsustainable without the sort of cheap and no rights labour that a migrant workforce supplies. Of course the alternative is self organisation of labour to demand proper wages and conditions.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I've written something which is exactly how I feel, I put time and effort into it.  You can't argue with how I feel, and you've written two dumb comments,  "Drivel, racist drivel", that's your sum total.  I'm not replying to you I'm replying to the hundreds of people who read this board but don't post comments.



Because you feel something doesn't immunize it against being both drivel and racist; feeling isn't some sort of 'get out of jail free card'...and that is a very good thing.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I had A "Free Tibet" T-shirt one time, I wonder how they feel about the convoys of Chinese people immigrating to their country.  Britain seems to be the only country that has a anti-nationalism police force but every culture, religion and race the comes to Britain is an nationalistic to their own country to the most incredible extent.  Because we don't really mix with other communities, don't get me wrong the intelligent people do, there are good honourable people everywhere but there is another strata, a dumber powerbase interested in control and furthering their own interests.
> 
> I love British culture, I feel we importing people who don't know what British culture is and are* bringing their own backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests to this country* for their own gain.



So it's not just foreigners you don't like but also 'dumb' Brits.

Perhaps you are upset because you see the bit in bold as your job.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## marty21 (May 11, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> What is "British culture"?
> 
> As for "backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests", you're something of a purveyor. No?


I've had several arguments about this, I don't think there is a defined British Culture, so how it can be defended or attacked is beyond me. Usually the 'defenders' of British Culture talk about Justice, democracy, a sense of fair play, and then come over all John Major and talk about warm beer and cricket on village greens


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For myself, I truly understand the depression and despondency of living in a conquered and subjugated country.  This is how I feel about Britain's relation to Europe.  Having no control over who comes into this country, is exactly the same as a country that has been conquered, it makes no difference that Britain has been tricked by treaty rather than losing a war.
> 
> The sense that the fabric of society has changed irrevocably, Britain now a land of overcrowded spaces, shortages of accommodation and loud groups speaking in unidentifiable foreign languages everywhere.  Generally people trying to make Britain in exactly like the culture and country they came from.
> 
> ...



You are racist scum, and a xenophobic douchebag.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I've written something which is exactly how I feel, I put time and effort into it.  You can't argue with how I feel, and you've written two dumb comments,  "Drivel, racist drivel", that's your sum total.  I'm not replying to you I'm replying to the hundreds of people who read this board but don't post comments.



Those two comments are all that what you wrote is worth.
And as for claiming to speak to some amorphous "silent majority", that's crap. You can't reply to people who haven't spoken, Brainiac.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

marty21 said:


> I've had several arguments about this, I don't think there is a defined British Culture


Britishness itself was constructed through a combination of coercion and bribery, so it follows that 'British culture' is entirely imagined - usually by the likes of Greebozz, the NF, UKIP and the BNP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> They keep re-hashing this one. Still, easier to concentrate on stuff like this than their own class/capital interests.



The Barclay brothers do have an interest in the Littlewoods mail-order company, so maybe they're trying to stimulate some sort of buying stampede on electricals?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I had A "Free Tibet" T-shirt one time, I wonder how they feel about the convoys of Chinese people immigrating to their country.  Britain seems to be the only country that has a anti-nationalism police force but every culture, religion and race the comes to Britain is an nationalistic to their own country to the most incredible extent.  Because we don't really mix with other communities, don't get me wrong the intelligent people do, there are good honourable people everywhere but there is another strata, a dumber powerbase interested in control and furthering their own interests.
> 
> I love British culture, I feel we importing people who don't know what British culture is and are bringing their own backward, prejudiced and nationalistic interests to this country for their own gain.



There is no "British" culture, just like there's no "preserved in amber" national culture anywhere. If you understood what a culture actually is - which you clearly don't - you'd know this. Instead you trot out the same line that racists have been shitting out of their ignorant arses for a century. Nonsense about British culture. 
British culture is what the people in Britain make it, what it isn't, is a fixed set of values.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So it's not just foreigners you don't like but also 'dumb' Brits.



So he's into self-loathing, then?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 11, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So he's into self-loathing, then?



I think that he probably enjoys such a profound level of 'not getting it', that he is effectively protected from any conscious self-loathing.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## gosub (May 11, 2016)

marty21 said:


> I've had several arguments about this, I don't think there is a defined British Culture, so how it can be defended or attacked is beyond me. Usually the 'defenders' of British Culture talk about Justice, democracy, a sense of fair play, and then come over all John Major and talk about warm beer and cricket on village greens



That John Major thing,to me, was an attempt at common thread with George Orwell's "England Your England" which is an amazing essay (actually most of them lumped together in Inside a Whale would make better GCSE fare  than Animal Farm).  Think it weathered better than Blair's "Cool Britannia" that jeered at it.


----------



## newbie (May 11, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> It's a good article, makes you wonder whether the UK agricultural market would collapse in that area as its business model ( in many ways responding to the supermakets business model) seems entirely unsustainable without the sort of cheap and no rights labour that a migrant workforce supplies. Of course the alternative is self organisation of labour to demand proper wages and conditions.


if only....

in the absence of such self-organisation those being exploited have to rely on the authorities, who are inevitably reactive and therefore slow.  But two key players, Ivars Mezals and Juris Valujevs were both jailed after their first trial and are (I think) still awaiting sentencing after being found guilty, along with Vankova and Valujeva, last December and in March.  It's not obvious why the article didn't make that clear.


----------



## Greebozz (May 11, 2016)

The way I see it, is that a lot of people here were involved in the noble struggle against racism in the 80s.  Great job the National Front were a bunch of wankers.  This noble movement has morphed into an identity in which it is vital to show you are not a racist.  One supports unlimited immigration to demonstrate to one's peer group one isn't a racist.

The people that object to unlimited uncontrolled immigration are deemed as being racist, hence they are to be attacked and denounce as vile racists.

As Violent Panda said British culture comes from the people that are in Britain.  What if the people coming to Britain have alien values, fanatical religions they despise the West.  Or are from rather backward Eastern European countries whose populations never grew up in a multicultural situation and are highly racist.  Cultures that are to the nationalistic in themselves and wish to make Britain exactly like the terrible place that they came from.

PS It amazes me that people can't see the irony of being incredibly violent and hostile towards me to show me that it's wrong to be hostile to foreign cultures and attitudes.


----------



## YouSir (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The way I see it, is that a lot of people here were involved in the noble struggle against racism in the 80s.  Great job the National Front were a bunch of wankers.  This noble movement has morphed into an identity in which it is vital to show you are not a racist.  One supports unlimited immigration to demonstrate to one's peer group one isn't a racist.
> 
> The people that object to unlimited uncontrolled immigration are deemed as being racist, hence they are to be attacked and denounce as vile racists.
> 
> ...



You're an individual, being judged on your personal merits off the back of direct interactions with you. While you're judging vast swathes of people as a bloc for being foreign, or not sharing your religion (or lack of). Simple really, that's why abusing you is fine but abusing millions of people for being backward, or stupid, or 'alien' isn't.


----------



## YouSir (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The way I see it, is that a lot of people here were involved in the noble struggle against racism in the 80s.  Great job the National Front were a bunch of wankers.  This noble movement has morphed into an identity in which it is vital to show you are not a racist.  One supports unlimited immigration to demonstrate to one's peer group one isn't a racist.
> 
> The people that object to unlimited uncontrolled immigration are deemed as being racist, hence they are to be attacked and denounce as vile racists.
> 
> ...



Also, as a side note, this country is already being run by people with values alien to my own, who appear to hate (or at best disregard) me and mine and whose extreme ideology is being imposed on me with massive damage and under threat of force and propogandistic corruption. On the plus side though there may be those amongst those hordes of 'backward' foreigners who'll help me deal with them.


----------



## Greebozz (May 11, 2016)

Please God will someone tell me why I shouldn't be bothered about immigration?  Why would anyone already living here want increased competition for jobs, accommodation, school places, health treatment?  And in terms of the EU why would anyone want to give sovereignty to another country?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Please God will someone tell me why I shouldn't be bothered about immigration?  Why would anyone already living here want increased competition for jobs, accommodation, school places, health treatment?  And in terms of the EU why would anyone want to give sovereignty to another country?


How utterly pathetic. Your God won't help you, buddy. You're fucked.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The people that object to unlimited uncontrolled immigration are deemed as being racist, hence they are to be attacked and denounce as vile racists.



Nope, just denounced as thick fuckers because we don't have 'unlimited uncontrolled immigration' and never have.


----------



## Greebozz (May 11, 2016)

I'm going to accept the arguments of those that have disagreed with me.  It's quite a happy viewpoint because it means there's nothing to worry about.  If no one actually agrees with the concerns I've raised, then I'm probably wrong.  Thanks for putting me straight on this matter, as far far as I'm concerned the subject is dealt with within myself.  On Faith I'm going to say everything will be fine, done finished.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'm going to accept the arguments of those that have disagreed with me.


That's awfully big of you.


----------



## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> That's awfully big of you.



They're very generous these people aren't they? Like LeslieB/Oswaldthistle accepting black and asian people can have the vote and stuff.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Please God will someone tell me why I shouldn't be bothered about immigration?  Why would anyone already living here want increased competition for jobs, accommodation, school places, health treatment?  And in terms of the EU why would anyone want to give sovereignty to another country?



You can be bothered about immigration without making racist assumptions regarding 'fanatics' and the 'backward'.

Just as you can be bothered about the provision of health care, housing and education without blaming foreigners...be they 'fanatical', 'backward' or even both.

Your finger pointing and name calling simultaneously manage not to address the real problems and demonise those not to blame; that's what makes them drivel and racist.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> They're very generous these people aren't they? Like LeslieB/Oswaldthistle accepting black and asian people can have the vote and stuff.



Innit. I should get down on my hands and knees and show my gratitude to the pair of them.

How has Greebozz managed to last so long without a permaban?


----------



## frogwoman (May 11, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The people that object to unlimited uncontrolled immigration are deemed as being racist, hence they are to be attacked and denounce as vile racists.
> 
> As Violent Panda said British culture comes from the people that are in Britain.  What if the people coming to Britain have alien values, fanatical religions they despise the West.  Or are from rather backward Eastern European countries whose populations never grew up in a multicultural situation and are highly racist.  Cultures that are to the nationalistic in themselves and wish to make Britain exactly like the terrible place that they came from.
> 
> .


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 12, 2016)

Boris Johnson just threatened ITV


twat boy showing his true colours once again


----------



## Greebozz (May 12, 2016)

frogwoman said:


>


I found it very humiliating experience being insulted, mocked and ridiculed.  It's quite a good way to keep one's ego in check, it's like no one agrees with you, you're a bad person and you're wrong, and we all hate you.  I'm definitely not cut out for this forum it's akin to a sort of self harm.  The concerns I've raised haven't received any agreement by anyone and have been shot down, as I've said I'm going to have to take it that I'm wrong in my opinions and let the topic go and choose to say it will all be fine.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 12, 2016)

what do really expect when you spout xenophobic racist shit ?

If you cant take the heat then run away


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

its such a shame the internet has been sanitised by the PC Brigade and theres literally nowhere on it where ones xenophobic opinions can be aired.


----------



## weltweit (May 12, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I found it very humiliating experience being insulted, mocked and ridiculed.  It's quite a good way to keep one's ego in check, it's like no one agrees with you, you're a bad person and you're wrong, and we all hate you.  I'm definitely not cut out for this forum it's akin to a sort of self harm.  The concerns I've raised haven't received any agreement by anyone and have been shot down, as I've said I'm going to have to take it that I'm wrong in my opinions and let the topic go and choose to say it will all be fine.


A lot of it is because of the specific words you used.

It is possible to be concerned about the implications of unfettered inward EU immigration, without being racist, and possible to be concerned about "multiculturalism" as well without being the full Enoch Powell.


----------



## brogdale (May 12, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I found it very humiliating experience being insulted, mocked and ridiculed.


Member since 2005 and you still come out with shite like that?


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> its such a shame the internet has been sanitised by the PC Brigade and theres literally nowhere on it where ones xenophobic opinions can be aired.



UKIP Forum (The United Kingdom Independence Party) • /r/ukipparty


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The way I see it, is that a lot of people here were involved in the noble struggle against racism in the 80s.  Great job the National Front were a bunch of wankers.  This noble movement has morphed into an identity in which it is vital to show you are not a racist.  One supports unlimited immigration to demonstrate to one's peer group one isn't a racist.



Oh dear. Look who's been reading Shitcunt. 

Here's the thing: *EVERYONE* is racist. The difference between you and I is that I abhor racism, and suppress any urge to fall back on racist sentiment. I do this NOT because it's "politically-correct" or "trendy", but because I realise it to be irrational and wrong. 



> The people that object to unlimited uncontrolled immigration are deemed as being racist, hence they are to be attacked and denounce as vile racists.



No.
People who demonstrate - as you have through your own words, however much you fart on about "unlimited uncontrolled immigration" in order to excuse yourself, that they're racist, they*should* be "attacked and denounced as vile racists".  it's merely calling something by its proper name.  



> As Violent Panda said British culture comes from the people that are in Britain.  What if the people coming to Britain have alien values, fanatical religions they despise the West.



Almost a thousand years ago, a set of immigrants with alien values and religious fanaticism came to Britain. They were called "The Normans". However hard they struggled to retain cultural hegemony and separateness, the same thing happened to them as to all settler cultures: Their culture was absorbed, hybridised and otherwise subordinated to the wider culture.
Learn some history, and even a bit of culture theory. That way you *might* stop embarrassing yourself. 



> Or are from rather backward Eastern European countries whose populations never grew up in a multicultural situation and are highly racist.



Fucking hell. I thought your previous sentence was ignorant, but this one...it doesn't just take the biscuit, it takes the whole packet! 

There are *NO* "Eastern European" countries whose populations are mono-cultural. Every single one of them is a hodge-podge of different ethnicities and religious observances. Racism in such states is usually "othering" based on skin colour, not because of mono-culturalism, and where those antipathies are not based on skin-colour, they're usually based on the same _schema_ as anti-Semitism - opportunistic scapegoating by the ruling class to distract their own people from noticing that the state is kebabing them.



> Cultures that are to the nationalistic in themselves and wish to make Britain exactly like the terrible place that they came from.
> 
> PS It amazes me that people can't see the irony of being incredibly violent and hostile towards me to show me that it's wrong to be hostile to foreign cultures and attitudes.




Nobody has been "incredibly violent" to you, you puling milquetoast.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Please God will someone tell me why I shouldn't be bothered about immigration?  Why would anyone already living here want increased competition for jobs, accommodation, school places, health treatment?  And in terms of the EU why would anyone want to give sovereignty to another country?


You rate these concerns higher than keeping the interest on your debts manageable or losing your job?  If yes, you think that's the norm?


----------



## kabbes (May 12, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I found it very humiliating experience being insulted, mocked and ridiculed.


So it's ok for you to say deeply hurtful and unpleasant things about other people -- real people who will be reading your words -- but it's not okay for others to respond in kind?


----------



## marty21 (May 12, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> Boris Johnson just threatened ITV
> 
> 
> twat boy showing his true colours once again


It is hilarious that the out campaigners are splitters - Leave v grass roots - I presume Farage didn't want to play second fiddle to Bojo so didn't get involved with the official campaign, preferring his group to play 2nd fiddle to Bojo


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> It is hilarious that the out campaigners are splitters - Leave v grass roots - I presume Farage didn't want to play second fiddle to Bojo so didn't get involved with the official campaign, preferring his group to play 2nd fiddle to Bojo


Grassroots go are the web handed outies and the other lot are the ones who don't want to look mental or wear those fuck ugly ties


----------



## marty21 (May 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Grassroots go are the web handed outies and the other lot are the ones who don't want to look mental or wear those fuck ugly ties


pretty true - although I thought that Leave didn't want to be too mean towards immigrants - and grass roots have open season on them


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> pretty true - although I thought that Leave didn't want to be too mean towards immigrants - and grass roots have open season on them


yeah Hollobone and purglove are figure among the luminaries so I'd assume there would be loads of immigrant bashing. He's mental on the subject


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> It is hilarious that the out campaigners are splitters - Leave v grass roots - I presume Farage didn't want to play second fiddle to Bojo so didn't get involved with the official campaign, preferring his group to play 2nd fiddle to Bojo



More complicated than that: vote Leave spent ages before designation spouting that a leave vote would mean staying in on better terms, which the eventually dropped but still say a vote to leave doesn't mean using the exit.  rather, smash through a wall and then set up trade deals in world record time, only the decision to do that, would if it came to it, be one for the government to make.  But this allows them to say a leave vote will enable us to tackle immigration, BUT they don't want Farage on the platform because he talks about immigration.  

The actual designation was a bit of a stitch up too,  at least three groups cried foul when they saw vote Leave had  them down as supporting their claim when they had been working with GO.  I sort of agreed with vote Leave that Farage was too marmite so needed distance, but thats a nonsense given the campaign they are running.



I have come up with my own conspiracy theory:  The referendum isn't about leaving the EU. The group-think is too entrenched for that.  It provided the tories a chance to shore up the support it was losing to UKIP and give some of its own members a chance to vent some spleen, and allow showcasing for next party leadership (a bigger prize somehow)  Labour staying above the fray looking to pick up votes in the EUropean elections - though will make UKIP more red as disaffected Labourites replace UKIPites returning to Tories.  And they all happily pick up the EUropean  party allowances and sit back and listen to the band having not rocked the boat too much.

Then the EUrozone crashes the ship into an iceberg.


----------



## ffsear (May 12, 2016)

So 2 weeks after telling us a brexit could lead to interest rates going up,   now were being told that brexit could cause a recession.   Nice own goal by project fear!

Bank Raises Recession Fears In Brexit Warning


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

ffsear said:


> So 2 weeks after telling us a brexit could lead to interest rates going up,   now were being told that brexit could cause a recession.   Nice own goal by project fear!
> 
> Bank Raises Recession Fears In Brexit Warning


 raising interest rates would slow the economy.   

The own goal is by Brexit : by leaving a range of exits on the table (most of which unworkable) Carney has to respond to all of them +factor in confusion, that leads to sound bites like that.   At least nobody's complaining he's Canadian


----------



## ffsear (May 12, 2016)

gosub said:


> raising interest rates would slow the economy.



...And a recession would lead to a lowering of interest rates  (well keeping them at record lows anyway)	They can't claim that interest rates are going up and we  are heading into a recession at the same time.  Makes no economic sense.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

ffsear said:


> ...And a recession would lead to a lowering of interest rates  (well keeping them at record lows anyway)	They can't claim that interest rates are going up and we  are heading into a recession at the same time.  Makes no economic sense.



No, interest rates would have to go up to shore up the pound, limited by the amount of debt defaults the banks could stomach. Recessions happen, its economic cycle, Gordon Brown may have thought different but was a bit like  King Canute and the tide (Canute was actually just showing up sycophants). Recession clears out the dodgy debts and has an evolutionary affect on business, but it does cause genuine pain..


As is, the average economic cycle since WW2 has been under 7 years. 2016 - 2008  is 8 years.  The things will return to normal after an IN vote is a little optimistic.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 12, 2016)

gosub said:


> No, interest rates would have to go up to shore up the pound, limited by the amount of debt defaults the banks could stomach. Recessions happen, its economic cycle, Gordon Brown may have thought different but was a bit like  King Canute and the tide (Canute was actually just showing up sycophants). Recession clears out the dodgy debts and has an evolutionary affect on business, but it does cause genuine pain..
> 
> 
> As is, the average economic cycle since WW2 has been under 7 years. 2016 - 2008  is 8 years.  The things will return to normal after an IN vote is a little optimistic.


Nobody really understands what economic cycles are, they merely observe that they happen. However, there is good reason to think that we're in a very different, new period now. Entrenched debt levels, but record interest rate lows, general reluctance in the private sector to borrow riskily, very low inflation veering dangerously towards deflation, sporadic attempts by govt to stimulate things.

This exact process has been going on in Japan for 25 years now. There are big parallels to be drawn with Japan over this and good reasons to think that the UK could be locked into similar stagnation for decades.


----------



## ffsear (May 12, 2016)

You can't shore up a currency simpley buy fucking around with monetary policy. George Soros taught us that in 1992.  Beside,  what about the stimulus to exporters caused by a weaker pound.

A lot of people in the UK are highly leveraged at the moment.  An increase in interest rates would be suicide!

Oh there will be a storm,  but we can ride it out without  upping rates.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nobody really understands what economic cycles are, they merely observe that they happen. However, there is good reason to think that we're in a very different, new period now. Entrenched debt levels, but record interest rate lows, general reluctance in the private sector to borrow riskily, very low inflation veering dangerously towards deflation, sporadic attempts by govt to stimulate things.
> 
> This exact process has been going on in Japan for 25 years now. There are big parallels to be drawn with Japan over this and good reasons to think that the UK could be locked into similar stagnation for decades.



I'd agree we've japaned, doesn't mean Japan doesn't have an economic cycle.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

ffsear said:


> You can't shore up a currency simpley buy fucking around with monetary policy. George Soros taught us that in 1992.  Beside,  what about the stimulus to exporters caused by a weaker pound.
> 
> A lot of people in the UK are highly leveraged at the moment.  An increase in interest rates would be suicide!
> 
> Oh there will be a storm,  but we can ride it out without  upping rates.



No, Soros taught are there are limits.  Moving 10% to 12% was blood in the water and moving from 10 to 15% in a day was bloody suicidal.  The resulting squat parties opposite the tech cost me my A levels.   (no regrets)


Its one of the many reasons it would be EFTA, through Article 50


----------



## weltweit (May 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> .. This exact process has been going on in Japan for 25 years now. There are big parallels to be drawn with Japan over this and good reasons to think that the UK could be locked into similar stagnation for decades.


I am not sure you can compare UK to Japan like that, Japan have a massive trade surplus.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am not sure you can compare UK to Japan like that, Japan have a massive trade surplus.


you've got the same massively over inflated property price causation


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am not sure you can compare UK to Japan like that, Japan have a massive trade surplus.


Had.







The comparisons between Japan 1990 and the UK 2008 are valuable, I think. I've linked to it before on here - the overall debt was very similar and the reaction also similar - private sector confidence collapsing, the economy saved from depression by heavy govt borrowing, followed eventually by several rounds of quantitative easing. Private sector confidence remaining relatively low as interest rates drop to and remain at near-zero. Very low growth, if any, plus widespread wage and price freezes. The major difference between Japan 1990 and UK 2008 is that the private debt crisis in Japan occurred mostly at company level, whereas in the UK it occurred mostly at household level, but looking at %age of GDP, the figures are strikingly similar. 

And Japan is still in that 'cycle'. Hard to describe it as a cycle when it's been there for so long. It's not the end of the world - for any Japanese person under 30, this will be all they know, and they're living their lives ok - but it's unclear how the contradictions that are building up, particularly wrt QE, will eventually be unravelled. Truth is that nobody knows.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 12, 2016)

gosub said:


> you've got the same massively over inflated property price causation


Yep. I believe Japanese property prices still haven't quite returned to their 1989 level.

It's a few of years since I looked into this properly. But the more I looked (this was around 2009-10) the more parallels I found.


----------



## marty21 (May 12, 2016)

Does a yes to Brexit in the referendum mean we actually have to leave ? Is there wriggle room for Disco Dave?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Does a yes to Brexit in the referendum mean we actually have to leave ?


Yes, I would have thought so.


----------



## weltweit (May 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Had.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I learnt something then, I thought Japan's trade surplus was hard wired into their economy!


----------



## butchersapron (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Does a yes to Brexit in the referendum mean we actually have to leave ? Is there wriggle room for Disco Dave?


Not now he's said he would have no choice but to exercise article 50 the day after a vote to leave. There's actually been a series of claims that a NO vote would not mean 'we' would have to leave if a NO vote wins. Each of them has since disappeared, broken.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Had.
> 
> 
> The comparisons between Japan 1990 and the UK 2008 are valuable, I think. I've linked to it before on here - the overall debt was very similar and the reaction also similar - private sector confidence collapsing, the economy saved from depression by heavy govt borrowing, followed eventually by several rounds of quantitative easing. Private sector confidence remaining relatively low as interest rates drop to and remain at near-zero. Very low growth, if any, plus widespread wage and price freezes. The major difference between Japan 1990 and UK 2008 is that the private debt crisis in Japan occurred mostly at company level, whereas in the UK it occurred mostly at household level, but looking at %age of GDP, the figures are strikingly similar.
> ...


Japan GDP Growth Rate | 1980-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast   trend is toward flatlining, but you still have cycle though a lot of that will be the machine.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Does a yes to Brexit in the referendum mean we actually have to leave ? Is there wriggle room for Disco Dave?



That depends on who you talk to.   Little wriggle room for Dave, he'd be gone.  The bubble at the core of vote Leave has seemed to think not, and still don't say it will Article 50, but just today Juncker has said we would be out.  What i think would happen is Cameron would ride out til just before Parliamentary summer holiday 21st July, during which he'd sign Article 50 (as he told Parliament he would).- Markets wouldn't find rabbit in the headlights a good look.  Resign, let Sir Jeremy Heywood handle the preliminaries and leave the Tories to have their leadership election, during which Mr Gove and Mr Johnson would have to reapraise their views on the Single market


----------



## frogwoman (May 12, 2016)

How exactly is it ridiculing your beliefs to say it's the pot calling the kettle black when you state that you don't want lots of backward immigrants coming to the country because they will all be racist??


----------



## redsquirrel (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Does a yes to Brexit in the referendum mean we actually have to leave ? Is there wriggle room for Disco Dave?


Depends on a number of factors, if it was a close vote on a low turnout I'd be willing to put money on the referendum to be rerun ala Ireland. Johnson already flew that idea.


----------



## free spirit (May 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Well, I learnt something then, I thought Japan's trade surplus was hard wired into their economy!


the Fukashima impact, with a huge switch from nuclear to imported fossil fuels.


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Depends on a number of factors, if it was a close vote on a low turnout I'd be willing to put money on the referendum to be rerun ala Ireland. Johnson already flew that idea.


That would be a disaster in quite a few ways, but can't rule it out.  There is difference between this referendum and the ones in France, Netherlands and Ireland (getting quite a list)  - that was for treaties that all member states had to pass, this is just us.


----------



## realitybites (May 12, 2016)

If dodgy dave and his business cronies want us to stay in, you can bet it's all for their own personal benefit. I've got another 25 years working the public sector and dont see how any of this will affect me, my finances are stretched for all the obvious reasons and an in or an out vote won't change any of that. All the same I'm
Going to vote with my two fingers, like  all part time punks should.. Whatever happened to the punks anyway? What would Johnny Rotten of done? Guy Debord? What would he do now?


----------



## ffsear (May 12, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Does a yes to Brexit in the referendum mean we actually have to leave ? Is there wriggle room for Disco Dave?



Its mesns that we,ll by free to negotiate with who we want.   

Look hoe this 'political' debate has turned into a debate about economics.  Most EU countries are in huge debt to the ECB.  Polotices through through back door.  The EU is run by bankers,  not politicians. 

Time to get out


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 12, 2016)

realitybites said:


> If dodgy dave and his business cronies want us to stay in, you can bet it's all for their own personal benefit. I've got another 25 years working the public sector and dont see how any of this will affect me, my finances are stretched for all the obvious reasons and an in or an out vote won't change any of that. All the same I'm
> Going to vote with my two fingers, like  all part time punks should.. Whatever happened to the punks anyway? What would Johnny Rotten of done? Guy Debord? What would he do now?


well johnny rotten is now selling butter so what does that tell you ?


----------



## William of Walworth (May 12, 2016)

ffsear said:


> The EU is run by bankers,  not politicians.
> 
> Time to get out



And a post-Brexit UK would be run by bankers, and by the City more generally,  to any smaller extent?


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> well johnny rotten is now selling butter so what does that tell you ?


He fucked up as an LA property developer


----------



## realitybites (May 12, 2016)

The middle class conundrum.. eating lettuce leaves and living 'til we're 100.. Spreading butter is no way for a punk to go.


----------



## Libertad (May 12, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> well johnny rotten is now selling butter so what does that tell you ?



Slippery customer.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

his lyrics always adressed the bread and butter issues


----------



## gosub (May 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> his lyrics always adressed the bread and butter issues


You've just ruined Rise for me


----------



## JimW (May 12, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> his lyrics always adressed the bread and butter issues


I thought he laid it on a bit thick


----------



## DotCommunist (May 12, 2016)

JimW said:


> I thought he laid it on a bit thick


a gross smear


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

Anyone voting out just to piss David Cameron off?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Anyone voting out just to piss David Cameron off?



No because if 'Out' wins we'll get someone far worse as PM.

This very fact betrays the ontology of the referendum question i.e. Tory divisions.

Legarde from IMF is now saying there'll be a slump with falling house prices. The later being a good thing for the UK surely?


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Legarde from IMF is now saying there'll be a slump with falling house prices. The later being a good thing for the UK surely?



No, falling house prices helps no one.   We need to build more houses


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2016)

Falling house prices help lots of people. Yes we need to build more houses, but people have to be able to afford them. And particularly the knock-on effect on rents.


----------



## sim667 (May 13, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> No because if 'Out' wins we'll get someone far worse as PM.
> 
> This very fact betrays the ontology of the referendum question i.e. Tory divisions.
> 
> Legarde from IMF is now saying there'll be a slump with falling house prices. The later being a good thing for the UK surely?



It helps some people. It doesn't help buy to letters, it does help people who can't afford to buy, and it shits on people who own the house they live in and no other property.

If there could be a triple edged sword, this would be it.


----------



## stethoscope (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> No, falling house prices helps no one.   We need to build more houses



Whilst negative equity and crashes are a bad thing for people, falling house prices would help towards a re-balancing as 'market value' is entirely fabricated as it is. Simply building more houses isn't helping especially whilst most of them aren't affordable or social.

We need more truly social housing, rent controls, scrapping policies such as RTB and PFI that might look like they're a great thing but are actually plundering us into a worse situation, etc. And there are both international pressures on the market too, all invested in neoliberalism. The market doesn't work as a simple demand/supply graph.


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Falling house prices help lots of people. Yes we need to build more houses, but people have to be able to afford them. And particularly the knock-on effect on rents.




Only if the fall in prices is bought about by an increase in supply,   not by a bursting bubble.	Houses will still be unafforadable if the bubble burst and the banks reduce lending.


----------



## Teaboy (May 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Falling house prices help lots of people. Yes we need to build more houses, but people have to be able to afford them. And particularly the knock-on effect on rents.



Whether we like it or not a sharp fall in house prices would signal the start of another massive crash and the inevitable vast job losses.  The banks are up to their eyes in mortgage debt and it wouldn't surprise me if it was bale out time again.  Massive council house building programme is what we need and some sort of mechanism to prevent house prices going up further so they fall in value in real terms on a gradual basis.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Whether we like it or not a sharp fall in house prices would signal the start of another massive crash and the inevitable vast job losses.  The banks are up to their eyes in mortgage debt and it wouldn't surprise me if it was bale out time again.  Massive council house building programme is what we need and some sort of mechanism to prevent house prices going up further so they fall in value in real terms on a gradual basis.


i seem to recall that in the early 1990s a lot of people were in 'negative equity' without the world collapsing round our ears. i think you are too optimistic.


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Only if the fall in prices is bought about by an increase in supply,   not by a bursting bubble.	Houses will still be unafforadable if the bubble burst and the banks reduce lending.



Houses are insanely overpriced, though. It has to be good to burst the bubble of overinflation. If house prices dropped in half the banks could reduce lending by half and people would be able to buy just with lower mortgage repayments. 

Yes we have to build more houses, or perhaps even better stop people buying and selling to make such huge profits and make houses for putting roofs over peoples' heads.


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Massive council house building programme is what we need and some sort of mechanism to prevent house prices going up further so they fall in value in real terms on a gradual basis.



And a cap on how many properties landlords,  or even individuals can actually own.


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> . If house prices dropped in half the banks could reduce lending by half and people would be able to buy just with lower mortgage repayments.



But why would banks loan (invest) in a falling market?  They won't!


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> No, falling house prices helps no one.   We need to build more houses



That oversimplistic statement is worthy of a 40 page thread on its own. 

our village population 6000, just agreed a plan for another 1300 houses.  The majority will be 4-5 bed.  Meanwhile 1/6 of properties have grown up kids still living with their parents. Now that HMG has just made buy to let unattractive, I look forward to the idea of councils building and owning their own housing stock coming back into fashion


----------



## stethoscope (May 13, 2016)

Well buy-to-let and private landlords has been actively encouraged since the 80s both by Thatcher/Tories and continued by Blair/New Labour.

Anyway, this stuff has been discussed loads over many threads, so praps keep this one more on the ref?


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2016)

Once the bubble's burst then indeed you'd want stable prices. And I don't see why house prices crashing would put huge numbers out of work. Insane house prices don't keep people in work.


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> But why would banks loan (invest) in a falling market?  They won't!


And building firms would rather sit on their land banks.


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> That oversimplistic statement is worthy of a 40 page thread on its own.
> 
> our village population 6000, just agreed a plan for another 1300 houses.  The majority will be 4-5 bed.   Now that HMG has just made buy to let unattractive, I look forward to the idea of councils building and owning their own housing stock coming back into fashion




It happening here in Croydon too.  Flats going up everwhere.  Most of which will be sold before their even completed. (computer generated images in estate agent windows ffs!)

House oppiste me was on the market last month,  HAd a que of about 50 outside for an open day.  Sold that day.	A month later, up goes the "to let" sign.

A sorry state of affairs


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Once the bubble's burst then indeed you'd want stable prices. And I don't see why house prices crashing would put huge numbers out of work. Insane house prices don't keep people in work.


tbh house prices crashing might put more people in work, as more people would be able to buy a house and so many more people would be interested in painting, decorating, joinery etc.


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2016)

There are a lot of empty houses, flats above shops and the like that we should start using before huge building projects.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> well johnny rotten is now selling butter so what does that tell you ?


the ads came out fucking EIGHT YEARS ago, i don't think he's selling butter now


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

two sheds said:


> There are a lot of empty houses, flats above shops and the like that we should start using before huge building projects.



Thing is people probably own these places but are happy do to fuck all with them while prices go up .


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

Would eventually make UK more competitive.   But a lot of trouble getting there. Those not seeing how it has bad impact on the economy - beyond the construction industry slow down, how many small businesses are run off the back of someone mortgaging their home?   Barrier for start ups and a dryup of a source of capital for existing businesses.


Concerning that the establishment seems to think there is room for things to get more ridiculous, but rectification they seem to be oblivious of the need for would have to be done carefully.


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

anyway yea, this way off topic


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> anyway yea, this way off topic


after 70 pages i am astonished anyone still cares about the topic


----------



## ffsear (May 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> after 70 pages i am astonished anyone still cares about the topic



Is this a new record?   Anyone been called a nazi yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Is this a new record?   Anyone been called a nazi yet?


almost certainly, unless you've been remiss in your duty.


----------



## butchersapron (May 13, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Is this a new record?   Anyone been called a nazi yet?


Not even close.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the ads came out fucking EIGHT YEARS ago, i don't think he's selling butter now


glad you have the time to google such stuff, you need to calm down a bit


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> glad you have the time to google such stuff, you need to calm down a bit


i hope you've 30 seconds to google something too


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 13, 2016)

no not really


----------



## DJWrongspeed (May 13, 2016)

gosub said:


> That oversimplistic statement is worthy of a 40 page thread on its own.
> 
> our village population 6000, just agreed a plan for another 1300 houses.  The majority will be 4-5 bed.  Meanwhile 1/6 of properties have grown up kids still living with their parents. Now that HMG has just made buy to let unattractive, I look forward to the idea of councils building and owning their own housing stock coming back into fashion



That sounds very unusual. Where do you live ?  4-5 bed houses though in short supply certainly aren't what everyone wants.

Does your village have good transport connections or is this development going to cause a blot of congestion?


----------



## Teaboy (May 13, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i seem to recall that in the early 1990s a lot of people were in 'negative equity' without the world collapsing round our ears. i think you are too optimistic.



Yes but I don't think the scale is comparable.  The sort of mortgage controls that were present in the 80's and 90's have all but disappeared and the crazy days of lending have vastly inflated the bubble.  Whilst it may seem that a house price fall or indeed crash would benefit many the wider repercussions could be disastrous.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Yes but I don't think the scale is comparable.  The sort of mortgage controls that were present in the 80's and 90's have all but disappeared and the crazy days of lending have vastly inflated the bubble.  Whilst it may seem that a house price fall or indeed crash would benefit many the wider repercussions could be disastrous.


Of course it's comparable: but it may not be equivalent.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> no not really


never mind eh


----------



## kabbes (May 13, 2016)

Collapsing house prices can certainly cause problems for an economy in and of themselves, if the economy is what you are interested in.  It makes the working population considerably less mobile, for example.  It reduces the volatility of money circulation.

The issue of house prices goes beyond what is best for the national economy, though, surely?  Isn't framing it purely in those terms exactly the same trap that has caused so many other problems?

I'm also not sure what it means to say that the prices are "overinflated", because that implies that there exists some objective measure by which we can determine what they 'should' be.  All valuations are determined by what somebody is willing to pay for something and somebody else is willing to sell it for.  On that basis, all valuations are both arbitrary and, by definition, correct.  Don't get me wrong -- I agree with the sentiment behind the statement.  It's just a demonstration that the problem is not even that easy to even articulate, let alone fix.


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> That sounds very unusual. Where do you live ?  4-5 bed houses though in short supply certainly aren't what everyone wants.
> 
> Does your village have good transport connections or is this development going to cause a blot of congestion?



A 2-3 bed house sells in under a month, 4-5 usually on market for about 4 months.  Stopping train line to London and motorway junct.  The whole thing is being pitched as way of eating up 10 years worth of development quotas rather than through piecemeal.  Having tried to fob me off with the quotant of 2,3,&4 four bed that will be in the social housing they are forced to build (a minority) and much to his distaste.  Explained had to be mainly 5 bed coz the developers "have to make a profit"


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Collapsing house prices can certainly cause problems for an economy in and of themselves, if the economy is what you are interested in.  It makes the working population considerably less mobile, for example.  It reduces the volatility of money circulation.
> 
> The issue of house prices goes beyond what is best for the national economy, though, surely?  Isn't framing it purely in those terms exactly the same trap that has caused so many other problems?
> 
> I'm also not sure what it means to say that the prices are "overinflated", because that implies that there exists some objective measure by which we can determine what they 'should' be.  All valuations are determined by what somebody is willing to pay for something and somebody else is willing to sell it for.  On that basis, all valuations are both arbitrary and, by definition, correct.  Don't get me wrong -- I agree with the sentiment behind the statement.  It's just a demonstration that the problem is not even that easy to even articulate, let alone fix.



I thought the reasoning for QE after the 2008 shock was to inflate the price of everything else to bring the mortgages our over extended banks had on their books back to looking sensable.  Didn't work out like that, wages froze and house prices continued to rise, as investors in the rest of the world grasped UK governemnet couldn't or wouldn't let house  prices fall.


----------



## pocketscience (May 13, 2016)

kabbes said:


> I'm also not sure what it means to say that the prices are "overinflated", because that implies that there exists some objective measure by which we can determine what they 'should' be.  All valuations are determined by what somebody is willing to pay for something and somebody else is willing to sell it for.  On that basis, all valuations are both arbitrary and, by definition, correct.  Don't get me wrong -- I agree with the sentiment behind the statement.  It's just a demonstration that the problem is not even that easy to even articulate, let alone fix.


But you can gauge whether a price of something like housing is overinflated by its comparable or relative historical context to other economic factors, like average wages,  purchasing power indices or even the price of a chicken:


> If grocery prices had increased at the same rate as house prices since 1971, then:
> 
> A 4-pint carton of milk would cost £10.45
> A chicken would cost £51.18
> ...


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> But you can gauge whether a price of something like housing is overinflated by its comparable or relative historical context to other economic factors, like average wages,  purchasing power indices or even the price of a chicken:



house prices fell shortly after 71 as well


----------



## stethoscope (May 13, 2016)




----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

stethoscope said:


>



His company is single handedly propping up the EUro.


----------



## Greebozz (May 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh dear. Look who's been reading Shitcunt.
> 
> Here's the thing: *EVERYONE* is racist. The difference between you and I is that I abhor racism, and suppress any urge to fall back on racist sentiment. I do this NOT because it's "politically-correct" or "trendy", but because I realise it to be irrational and wrong.
> 
> ...



I'm not familiar with the publication called Shitcunt, would that be in the academic periodicals section.

I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post, I mean that sincerely.  I think you make some good points.

You're going to have to excuse me, I think it's probably better if I steer clear from sharing my opinions in the politics forum.


----------



## butchersapron (May 13, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'm not familiar with the publication called Shitcunt, would that be in the academic periodicals section.
> 
> I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post, I mean that sincerely.  I think you make some good points.
> 
> You're going to have to excuse me, I think it's probably better if I steer clear from sharing my opinions in the politics forum.


Stop doing it then. Just fuck off.


----------



## gosub (May 13, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'm not familiar with the publication called Shitcunt, would that be in the academic periodicals section.
> 
> I do appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post, I mean that sincerely.  I think you make some good points.
> 
> You're going to have to excuse me, I think it's probably better if I steer clear from sharing my opinions in the politics forum.


Please don't go.  I'm generally curious, not just as to why a forum member of ten years standing would be surprised at the reception such remarks would receive.   And,  beyond that, and probably to me more important :What,  given your motivation, would be your reaction to a successful leave vote that doesn't address immigration.  I can further extrapolate as to why it won't.


----------



## eatmorecheese (May 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


>


----------



## xenon (May 14, 2016)

Thread needs a poll. 

 I am 65%, maybe 70,  for stay FWIW.


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2016)

I'm expecting a massive boost for stay after all the capital interest and the various bosses said _stay or you will be directly punished in the pocket_. See polls with stay over 50% soon.


----------



## xenon (May 14, 2016)

I've heard no compelling reason to vote exit.  Some vague unicorn stuff on here a few months ago.  Mainstream, UKIP EU telling us what to do.Pro stay.  If you leave, terrible bad things. 

 I think Capital will be OK either way.


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2016)

xenon said:


> I've heard no compelling reason to vote exit.  Some vague unicorn stuff on here a few months ago.  Mainstream, UKIP EU telling us what to do.Pro stay.  If you leave, terrible bad things.
> 
> I think Capital will be OK either way.


Do you need someone to give you a compelling  reason  for anything? Have you no prior interests of your own independent of the politicians that might make your mind up?


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2016)

xenon said:


> I've heard no compelling reason to vote exit.  Some vague unicorn stuff on here a few months ago.  Mainstream, UKIP EU telling us what to do.Pro stay.  If you leave, terrible bad things.
> 
> I think Capital will be OK either way.


Capital will be in  fuck worse state if we leave, that's why they're saying don't leave or we'll hurt you. These _predictions _are threats.


----------



## realitybites (May 14, 2016)

It's will be a sorry day of reckoning for UK when we realise that the last 30 or so years of capital gains, fuelled by personal wealth profits and consumerist 'free' choice has led us down a path of illusion, feeling 'free' but not really free, feeling 'independent' but not really independent. Have most of us really all become a bunch of stay at home and play it safe'rs??


----------



## YouSir (May 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Capital will be in  fuck worse state if we leave, that's why they're saying don't leave or we'll hurt you. These _predictions _are threats.



If we do leave what changes that makes us more able to stop those threats being carried out? Or to stop the re-framing of the economy to make conditions worse to maintain profits?

E2a: That's a question, not an argument btw.


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2016)

YouSir said:


> If we do leave what changes that makes us more able to stop those threats being carried out? Or to stop the re-framing of the economy to make conditions worse to maintain profits?
> 
> E2a: That's a question, not an argument btw.


Capital, whether a national capital (as if there is such a thing - esp as regards UK based capital!) or as international never makes plans to damage its functioning. It threatens to do so (i.e) via claims about what a plan it doesn't like will do to labour (i.e wages. social wage). So when they say look, _if you leave this will damage us/capital in these specific ways that will then effect YOU _they mean that it won't (for it to do so would mean they need to take measures that damage themselves) but they want you to think it will. It will damage their ability to organise internationally, not their ability to profit off their various thieveries. That's why they don't want it to happen.


----------



## brogdale (May 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Capital, whether a national capital (as if there is such a thing - esp as regards UK based capital!) or as international never makes plans to damage its functioning. It threatens to do so (i.e) via claims about what a plan it doesn't like will do to labour (i.e wages. social wage). So when they say look, _if you leave this will damage us/capital in these specific ways that will then effect YOU _they mean that it won't (for it to do so would mean they need to take measures that damage themselves) but they want you to think it will. It will damage their ability to organise internationally, not their ability to profit off their various thieveries. That's why they don't want it to happen.



That reading is certainly borne out by analysis of macro-economic data. This graph, included in Robert Hall's recent LSE, Phillips lecture, demonstrates how capital, (albeit US only), has maintained a remarkably consistent return over the business cycles and secular stagnation of the last 60+ years.





Whilst labour has endured great variation in income, including long-term, relative decline, and rates of unemployment...the capitalists have maintained a 'norm' of 25% return on the value of their investments pretty much whatever the internal/external macro-economic conditions.

I'm sure that this informs how global capital views the question of Brexit; it might suit them to have the convenience of supra-national, technocratic governance to facilitate their accumulation...but they can live with either outcome and neither will constrain their ability to operate as they wish.


----------



## stethoscope (May 14, 2016)

Jo Cox still at it. He's not being 'pro-remain' enough now.

Labour MP suggests Jeremy Corbyn could face leadership challenge next month



			
				Indie said:
			
		

> *Jeremy Corbyn could face leadership challenge next month, Labour MP suggests
> Exclusive: Pro-EU Labour figures fear that Mr Corbyn will not throw his full weight behind the Remain campaign*
> 
> Labour MPs have warned Jeremy Corbyn he must make more effort to mobilise Labour supporters in order to prevent Britain voting to leave the EU in next month’s referendum.
> ...



Also stuff about Corbyn speaking out more about the 'social media sexists' - doing that same attack as the right and Blairite/Progress Labour have been doing on anti-semitism as painting it being a _left problem_. Therefore, it being Corbyn's problem. Fuck sake.


----------



## xenon (May 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Do you need someone to give you a compelling  reason  for anything? Have you no prior interests of your own independent of the politicians that might make your mind up?



Of course but generally want to be reasonbly Sure you're not making things worse.
Post exit the same sorts of people run things.. Post exit, how are the working classes more empowered.


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2016)

xenon said:


> Of course but generally want to be reasonbly Sure you're not making things worse.
> Post exit the same sorts of people run things.. Post exit, how are the working classes more empowered.


I think the disorganisation of european capital can only put european labour at greater potential. It's hard to sell that against _but you're going to be poorer, the bosses said so.
_
A question - would the w/c better off is a massively empowered CBI was broken up or if it was given a mandate to do pretty much as it liked with no comeback? Would you, or others ask, but what happens next if we break the CBI?


----------



## brogdale (May 14, 2016)

Incidentally; love the way all these "risk-takers" are lining up to warn against...er...risk!


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Incidentally; love the way all these "risk-takers" are lining up to warn against...er...risk!


Does rather show up how capital is utterly reliant on states and multi-state institutions doesn't it. The myth of self-created self-sustaining capital shattered. Anyway, i though the organising principle of new capital was _disruption. _They don't like it up 'em


----------



## xenon (May 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think the disorganisation of european capital can only put european labour at greater potential. It's hard to sell that against _but you're going to be poorer, the bosses said so.
> _
> A question - would the w/c better off is a massively empowered CBI was broken up or if it was given a mandate to do pretty much as it liked with no comeback? Would you, or others ask, but what happens next if we break the CBI?



Good question. I'd ask what's the power behind initiating that break up, cui bono. Is that useful to us.

So yeah in light of your point re disorganised capital, i'll think a bit more.


----------



## ffsear (May 14, 2016)

SO now if we've leave the EU its going to cost us 10% of our GDP.	Becoming laughable now!


----------



## DotCommunist (May 14, 2016)

remember when scotland was going to become a thirld world country if it voted to leave the British Union? lol


----------



## butchersapron (May 14, 2016)

'do britain down' - ugh. Seen this a lot the last 6 months. Drivel stuff.


----------



## ffsear (May 14, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> 'do britain down' - ugh. Seen this a lot the last 6 months. Drivel stuff.




Yea fair enough.... but -10% GDP for crying out loud.  Feels like their taking the piss out of us.  Central Bankers taking the piss?   nah!


----------



## weltweit (May 14, 2016)

wrong thread!


----------



## gosub (May 14, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Yea fair enough.... but -10% GDP for crying out loud.  Feels like their taking the piss out of us.  Central Bankers taking the piss?   nah!


Is that before/after/because of WW3,  coz I expected WW3 to have a bigger effect than that... Haven't worked out the supply/demand dynamics on house prices-not covered in Threads


----------



## J Ed (May 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> remember when scotland was going to become a thirld world country if it voted to leave the British Union? lol



The long term economic plan of the EU is working don't vote for the coalition of chaos etc


----------



## magneze (May 14, 2016)

Australia was unmemorable rubbish. Fuck you "experts".


----------



## two sheds (May 14, 2016)

magneze said:


> Australia was unmemorable rubbish. Fuck you "experts".





I think a lot of people have confused the Euroref with Eurovision tonight. Very similar concepts.


----------



## J Ed (May 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> I think a lot of people have confused the Euroref with Eurovision tonight. Very similar concepts.



Eurovision has more democratic legitimacy


----------



## magneze (May 14, 2016)




----------



## magneze (May 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Eurovision has more democratic legitimacy


Dunno about that, the "experts" attempted to fix it so that Australia won. The people won in the end though.


----------



## gosub (May 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Eurovision has more democratic legitimacy


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 15, 2016)

Inevitably, it's all boiled down to the War. Plucky Johnson and Farage fighting on the beaches to stop the Nazi superstate taking over. First we stopped Napoleon taking over Europe, then we stopped Hitler taking over Europe, now we're going to stop, er, Europe taking over Europe.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 15, 2016)

Bozza has a meltdown and breaks Godwin's Law. But that's okay because Farage backs him to become PM.


> Boris Johnson has compared the EU's aims to Hitler's, saying both involved the intention to unify Europe under a single "authority".
> 
> The pro-Brexit Tory MP said both the Nazi leader and Napoleon had failed at unification and the EU was "an attempt to do this by different methods".
> 
> ...


----------



## William of Walworth (May 15, 2016)

That Hitler stuff's just going to sound bonkers to anyone half-sensible.


----------



## teqniq (May 15, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> That Hitler stuff's just going to sound bonkers to anyone half-sensible.


You would have thought so wouldn't you? And yet according to the Indy:

Boris Johnson is twice as trusted as the PM to tell the truth about EU


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 15, 2016)

teqniq said:


> You would have thought so wouldn't you? And yet according to the Indy:
> 
> Boris Johnson is twice as trusted as the PM to tell the truth about EU



Says more about what a bullshitting cunt people think pig fucker is than any praise for piffel bloke.


----------



## teqniq (May 15, 2016)

Yeah I reckon that's probably got more than a bit to do with it.


----------



## two sheds (May 15, 2016)

Yes most people you'd imagine would have zero trust in Cameron so that figure looks about right.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 15, 2016)

Edited. I missed something in the Indy article.


----------



## chilango (May 15, 2016)

Saw my first stall (from either side) yesterday. "Leave" in the centre of Okehampton. Couldn't stop for a free pen cos I was dashing up to the moor, but I did overhear a heated group slagging of Cameron fwiw.

Also saw a house in Bristol that's gone full UKIP, flags, billboards, posters the works.

I'm also absolutely raking in the virtual dosh from YouGov and IPSOS as a "don't know" who's "certain to vote" .


----------



## Dogsauce (May 15, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> That Hitler stuff's just going to sound bonkers to anyone half-sensible.



What is it with London mayors and citing Hitler?


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Inevitably, it's all boiled down to the War. Plucky Johnson and Farage fighting on the beaches to stop the Nazi superstate taking over. First we stopped Napoleon taking over Europe, then we stopped Hitler taking over Europe, now we're going to stop, er, Europe taking over Europe.


Note the painting of Europe as one united bloc. With the best interests of it's population as the motivating force behind it of course.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 15, 2016)

Noted.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2016)

It is a myth yes. And in that, it mirrors almost exactly the rhetorical polemic of the far-right leavers - and so rather than challenging it, in fact, supports it - it merely places a positive where they place a negative.


----------



## YouSir (May 15, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Capital, whether a national capital (as if there is such a thing - esp as regards UK based capital!) or as international never makes plans to damage its functioning. It threatens to do so (i.e) via claims about what a plan it doesn't like will do to labour (i.e wages. social wage). So when they say look, _if you leave this will damage us/capital in these specific ways that will then effect YOU _they mean that it won't (for it to do so would mean they need to take measures that damage themselves) but they want you to think it will. It will damage their ability to organise internationally, not their ability to profit off their various thieveries. That's why they don't want it to happen.



Aren't their strands of capital that would profit from Brexit though and who would, in turn, harm labour? Not talking about those making threats over leaving, I think you're right about them. But how about those who want a more US style, 'competetive' labour market who would use leaving the EU as a rationale for all sorts of attacks on wages and rights. Plus if there was an out vote it'd boost the likes of Johnson who would happily support those sort of attacks. Or maybe they'll just get their way in the EU too.

I'm inclining towards a leave vote atm. Just having a hard time seeing any real progress either way. Sharks on both sides of the tight rope.


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Aren't their strands of capital that would profit from Brexit though and who would, in turn, harm labour? Not talking about those making threats over leaving, I think you're right about them. But how about those who want a more US style, 'competetive' labour market who would use leaving the EU as a rationale for all sorts of attacks on wages and rights. Plus if there was an out vote it'd boost the likes of Johnson who would happily support those sort of attacks. Or maybe they'll just get their way in the EU too.
> 
> I'm inclining towards a leave vote atm. Just having a hard time seeing any real progress either way. Sharks on both sides of the tight rope.


Yes, there are fractions of capital  who see exit as way to improve  their own individual competitive condition against other capitals (and this means attacking labour really), But they're not being held back from that by the EU. They're being helped in this by the eu - just not not the exact basis they want for their own immediate local needs/demands. Total capital, capital as a whole, and esp capital that sees and plans politically (i.e not just with their own individual god) is eu mad.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> What is it with London mayors and citing Hitler?



it's a responsibility that comes with the job.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2016)

does this mean the EU is worse than hitler


----------



## butchersapron (May 15, 2016)

Better.

This, in fact, has been the tenor of much of the pro EU arguments on here.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 15, 2016)

A mate on Facebook noticed the cropping on this graun photo:


 

What does it look like it might say? 

Every household told: sign up now to vote in ‘historic’ EU poll


----------



## DotCommunist (May 15, 2016)

michael shite has spoken

Boris, the EU and Hitler: bad taste, bad judgment | Michael White


----------



## stethoscope (May 16, 2016)

EU Referendum: Brexit would hit poor hardest, says David Cameron - BBC News

Because you care so much about the poor and vulnerable, Dave.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 16, 2016)

The poor, the NHS. Now they've had this Damascene conversion to giving a fuck about other people I trust post-referendum all these Tory establishment shits and swivel-eyed fuckaroos will be embracing social justice and fully funding the health service.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2016)

Of course his concern for those people is fake, but that argument again mirrors what many on the left who want to stay have been arguing - here and in the more general media/politics arenas. I'd like to see a response from those types that outlines why he is wrong or right beyond pointing out that fake concern.


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2016)

So, as we approach the juicy bit of the campaign, perhaps it is time to think about the "old". In this referendum I think it's fair to consider anyone aged 59 years (& 18 days) and over as the "old". They are the cohort for whom Cameron's referendum is a second attempt; Generation "_EurRef II_".

About 41 years ago many of them were part of the 65% turnout that produced a 67.5% 'Yes' vote in favour of remaining in the, then, EEC. What of them now? Well he pollsters reckon they're a) quite likely to vote again and b) now more likely to vote to leave the successor incarnation of the EEC.








> Some 54% of voters aged 55 and over said they wanted to leave against 30% who wanted the UK to remain in the EU. But in stark contrast to younger voters, 81% of this group were certain to vote.








So, all in all, quite a challenge for Cameron especially after spending 6 years discriminating against the very generation he's seeking to counter the "old".

I'm sure that it's quite a complex psephological analysis to pick out the bones of what is motivating many of the "old" to reverse their 1975 position, but I can't help dwelling on the fact that people aged 59 and over have witnessed the entire neoliberal turn and don't like the world it has produced for them. The challenge for 'remain' will be attempting to disabuse this cohort of the temporal correlation with EEC/EU membership.

Although my memory of the EEC ref I is that of a teenager, (to young to vote!!!), I'm tempted to remember my parents/relatives tending to see the 1975 'remain' vote as something approaching a hopeful, progressive desire for European co-operation.

That's dead, isn't it?​


----------



## Smangus (May 16, 2016)

Considering that the Tories have spent the last few years making the younger members of society less affluent, pay more for further education,  carry more of the weight of austerity and actively disenfranchising them from the vote (while largely protecting the most affluent elderly from all of this), it makes it a bit rich for Cameron to now be relying to a large extent on their vote to bring home the EU bacon.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Although my memory of the EEC ref I is that of a teenager, (to young to vote!!!), I'm tempted to remember my parents/relatives tending to see the 1975 'remain' vote as something approaching a hopeful, progressive desire for European co-operation.
> 
> That's dead, isn't it?​


The only people i have encountered who believe the old social-europe model can ever come about through the EU are leftists on the liberal ends of the spectrum and under mid-30s. That is, those most tightly locked out from it and with little or no experience of it. That's not to say that this is across the board with that group, plenty i know are anti-EU as part of a wider left-wing politics. The liberals (and here i mean actual lib-dems and people who are in that soppy ball park) may make claims about it being their ideal for the EU as well but they know damn well it's a lie.


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2016)

Smangus said:


> Considering that the Tories have spent the last few years making the younger members of society less affluent, pay more for further education,  carry more of the weight of austerity and actively disenfranchising them from the vote (while largely protecting the most affluent elderly from all of this), it makes it a bit rich for Cameron to now be relying to a large extent on their vote to bring home the EU bacon.


But that's the corner he's painted himself into, isn't it? If I were U25, fucked if I'd buy into their bullshit.


----------



## Greebozz (May 16, 2016)

Who would've thought that David Cameron was so passionately for Europe, he certainly kept that rather well hidden, good on him for fighting against the rabid right wing Nazi Fascist that want to leave Europe.  I think he definitely deserves an honourable to invite to the next anarchist squat party, we have a new hero championing our cause I hope you all embrace him to your heart's comrades.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Who would've thought that David Cameron was so passionately for Europe, he certainly kept that rather well hidden, good on him for fighting against the rabid right wing Nazi Fascist that want to leave Europe.  I think he definitely deserves an honourable to invite to the next anarchist squat party, we have a new hero championing our cause I hope you all embrace him to your heart's comrades.


Give it a rest you sad unfunny clown.


----------



## Greebozz (May 16, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Give it a rest you sad unfunny clown.


Well I found it funny.  I feel slightly victimised here, can we have a committee meeting I think butchersapron needs to go on a cultural sensitivity and inclusion seminar.


----------



## Greebozz (May 16, 2016)

It's too quiet, I'm getting worried


----------



## Nylock (May 16, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> It's too quiet, I'm getting worried


Fuck off you dullard. 



Happy?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 16, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> It's too quiet, I'm getting worried


i look forward to your going quiet. permanently.


----------



## Greebozz (May 16, 2016)

Nylock said:


> Fuck off you dullard.
> 
> 
> 
> Happy?


I think you sound like a moron, you don't display much wit or intellect, you make a dumb rude comment that child could make.  One of the characteristics of Britain culture is wit and humour, why don't you try it you might really enjoy it, and grow some extra brain cells in the process.  What I've said goes for anyone that makes dumb rude comments.


----------



## weltweit (May 16, 2016)

I see Boris has been defending his Hitler comments to the media.

I thought the rule was that the first person who resorted to Hitler lost the argument, obviously no one told Boris.


----------



## gosub (May 16, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I see Boris has been defending his Hitler comments to the media.
> 
> I thought the rule was that the first person who resorted to Hitler lost the argument, obviously no one told Boris.


EU debate takes ludicrous twist as Ken scolds Boris for Hitler comments | Coffee House


----------



## weltweit (May 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> EU debate takes ludicrous twist as Ken scolds Boris for Hitler comments | Coffee House


They deserve each other


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I think you sound like a moron, you don't display much wit or intellect, you make a dumb rude comment that child could make.  One of the characteristics of Britain culture is wit and humour, why don't you try it you might really enjoy it, and grow some extra brain cells in the process.  What I've said goes for anyone that makes dumb rude comments.


Concise & succinct, though.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 16, 2016)

Still a big gap between online and phone polls


> But the contrast in the two surveys is particularly stark, because they were conducted concurrently and deployed as similar vote adjustment methodologies as possible. In ICM’s phone poll, remain is eight points clear of leave, at 47% compared with 39%, with 14% undecided. Once the “don’t knows” are excluded, remain looks set for a clear 10-point lead, by 55% to 45%.
> With the online survey, by contrast, those in favour of Brexit have a definite edge – standing on 47% to remain’s 43%, with only 10% of respondents undecided. Once they are excluded, leave’s four-point advantage is maintained, in a projected final pro-Brexit result of 52% to 48%.


----------



## two sheds (May 16, 2016)

People phoned were on average older, younger people on web. But older people are much more likely to actually vote so looks like remain has it?

Errm that doesn't work does it? Older people more likely to vote to exit.


----------



## steeplejack (May 16, 2016)

Both official campaigns have been an absolute clusterfuck. One side predicting world war three and financial meltdown; the other making Hitler comments that they subsequently defend, or one week suggesting that we could be like Albania if we left, then being demolished on national media by, er, the president of Albania, then saying the ocuntry will be flooded with Albanian gangsters if we stay in the EU.

sheesh.


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Still a big gap between online and phone polls


Anthony Wells' take (quoting ICM's guy Martin Boon)...
UK Polling Report



> Martin Boon’s own take over on the ICM website is, as usual, both honest and somewhat bemused: _“The narrative that phone polls are more likely to be right ignores some fundamental flaws in phone methods. Labour supporters are continually oversampled by phone, and that may matter more than those same phone polls missing out on supposedly pro-Remain types, who are disproportionately less likely to turn out to vote. Similarly, what’s lurking under online covers could be equally nasty, and we should not ignore that the fact the UKIP voters are again, as they have long since been, higher in online polls than phone (or indeed at recent elections).”_


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2016)

Overlooking it's Ren_tool _tweeting it...this is quite cute...


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2016)

Large assumption about _turning _there.


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Large assumption about _turning _there.


More like very poorly expressed.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> More like very poorly expressed.


Not accidental surely? _Look At all these old farts, are you an old fart?_


----------



## brogdale (May 16, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Not accidental surely? _Look At all these old farts, are you an old fart?_


Journalistic standards being what they are, it might just be lazy or dumbed down. More properly it should have said 'a graph to show how polling evidence suggests that remain/leave preference varies with age'. Not so snappy, though!


----------



## hot air baboon (May 16, 2016)

...slightly strange author but a fascinating book....


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2016)

Long standing ell established, and goes much further than what is mentioned in that except. Nevertheless, the idea that there was an overarching idea pre-existing WW2 (leaving Napoleon alone) that as being expressed through the Nazi drive to win western europe for its control is both true of an individuals and bollocks on the level of reality. WW2 itself alone shows that.


----------



## butchersapron (May 16, 2016)

Where did Dairy queen go btw - anyone know?


----------



## hot air baboon (May 17, 2016)

....you're a history buff though....I'm not sure everyone clutching their pearls at Boris Johnson's comment is fully appraised of the historic continuities between the Hitler-era & the post-war reconstruction project...WW2 was hardly more than an inconvenient blip for people like Hermann Abs of Deutsche Bank & Allen Dulles


----------



## Nylock (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I think you sound like a moron, you don't display much wit or intellect, you make a dumb rude comment that child could make.  One of the characteristics of Britain culture is wit and humour, why don't you try it you might really enjoy it, and grow some extra brain cells in the process.  What I've said goes for anyone that makes dumb rude comments.


I would say you could do better than this but going on your past posting record, this is your plateau.

BTW if you're going to make smart arsed comments about *British* culture, then at least do British culture a favour and not abuse it's linguistic structures in such ways. It's not *Britain* culture, it's *British* culture you plum.


----------



## Greebozz (May 17, 2016)

Nylock said:


> I would say you could do better than this but going on your past posting record, this is your plateau.
> 
> BTW if you're going to make smart arsed comments about *British* culture, then at least do British culture a favour and not abuse it's linguistic structures in such ways. It's not *Britain* culture, it's *British* culture you plum.


I apologise, I was rather rude to you and felt bad about it afterwards, although I did suggested you try being witty rather than pedantic.  I feel there is hope we could be friends having so much in common, apparently were both Nazis, me of the Brexit view and you of the grammar variety.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I think you sound like a moron, you don't display much wit or intellect, you make a dumb rude comment that child could make.  One of the characteristics of Britain culture is wit and humour, why don't you try it you might really enjoy it, and grow some extra brain cells in the process.  What I've said goes for anyone that makes dumb rude comments.



Perhaps the reason he uses a "dumb" comment, is that he doesn't believe that you're worthy enough of his attention to warrant a halfway decent insult?
Because let's face it - you're not.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I apologise, I was rather rude to you and felt bad about it afterwards, although I did suggested you try being witty rather than pedantic.  I feel there is hope we could be friends having so much in common, apparently were both *Nazis*, me of the Brexit view and you of the grammar variety.



Has anybody called you a Nazi...a racist yes (and with some justification) but a Nazi really?

Adding dishonesty to your ignorance and racism doesn't make for pleasant reading; why not just give it rest?

Louis Macneice


----------



## ffsear (May 17, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Is this a new record?   Anyone been called a nazi yet?




Didn't take long


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> me of the Brexit view


there was me thinking you were one of the 1933 variety


----------



## Greebozz (May 17, 2016)

Seriously, would people rather that I didn't post in the politics Forum, this is a genuine question.


----------



## weltweit (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Seriously, would people rather that I didn't post in the politics Forum, this is a genuine question.


Post wherever you like, there are no rules.
But I think this thread should be about the referendum.


----------



## butchersapron (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Seriously, would people rather that I didn't post in the politics Forum, this is a genuine question.


Just stop posting shit. It's too late for you now anyway.


----------



## Nylock (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I apologise, I was rather rude to you and felt bad about it afterwards, although I did suggested you try being witty rather than pedantic.  I feel there is hope we could be friends having so much in common, apparently were both Nazis, me of the Brexit view and you of the grammar variety.


So... Making yourself out to be a Nazi in order to paint me as a grammar Nazi... Classy move -are you sure this is the direction you want things to go in?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Seriously, would people rather that I didn't post in the politics Forum, this is a genuine question.


i would rather you didn't post.


----------



## teqniq (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Seriously, would people rather that I didn't post in the politics Forum, this is a genuine question.


Well it's entirely up to you. But going on your past posts it all depends on how much you enjoy being an object of ridicule doesn't it?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Seriously, would people rather that I didn't post in the politics Forum, this is a genuine question.


Stop pretending you're the victim; you're actually enjoying this, Trollboy.


----------



## ffsear (May 17, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But I think this thread should be about the referendum.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I feel slightly victimised here


Hilarious.


----------



## weltweit (May 17, 2016)

John McDonnell: Brexit would mean even more Tory austerity – video


----------



## newbie (May 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I think the disorganisation of european capital *can only* put european labour at greater potential. It's hard to sell that against _but you're going to be poorer, the bosses said so._


the bolded bit is quite a claim. How on earth do you reach such a definitive conclusion?
_
I think the disorganisation of european capital can only put european labour at greater potential.
_
well possibly, but
_
			the disorganisation of european capital can put european neoliberals at greater potential.
			the disorganisation of european capital can put european far right at greater potential.
			the disorganisation of european capital can put european capital at greater potential._

pardon my skepticism, but labour being the force that realises that potential seems to be the least plausible outcome, not the most. 

What causes you to imagine otherwise?

You're much better read than me, and have a better overview, and here you're stating a common position I've tried and failed to get people to produce credible evidence to support. Of course it's hard to sell if no-one puts the case.  At some point the reasoning needs to be made explicit, to clarify the substance behind it.  





> A question - would the w/c better off is a massively empowered CBI was broken up or if it was given a mandate to do pretty much as it liked with no comeback? Would you, or others ask, but what happens next if we break the CBI?


I'd want to know who 'we' is that's brought the CBI to the point of breakup.  If 'we' is a strategic, longterm campaign of rightwing Tories, kippers and assorted nationalistic fellow travellers, I'll be wondering what they've got in mind as replacement.

The referendum is not happening because of sustained pressure from the left-leaning, more communalist, half of the population, or from any class struggle of the w/c.


----------



## magneze (May 17, 2016)

The leftwing case for Brexit (one day)

Bizarre Mason piece. Summary: leave, but not now, in a bit. Like these opportunities come along often.


----------



## ffsear (May 17, 2016)

and joke of the day is.......

Brexit Will Make Islamic State Happy, Says PM


----------



## marty21 (May 17, 2016)

Farage said today that if it was a close win for remain there would have to be a 2nd referendum  I am confident that if he has a narrow victory we will also welcome a 2nd referendum


----------



## Greebozz (May 17, 2016)

ffsear said:


> and joke of the day is.......
> 
> Brexit Will Make Islamic State Happy, Says PM


The comments from this news article are absolutely hilarious.


----------



## Greebozz (May 17, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Farage said today that if it was a close win for remain there would have to be a 2nd referendum  I am confident that if he has a narrow victory we will also welcome a 2nd referendum


I heard some joking comment that UKIP aren't campaigning very hard because if they're successful they'll be out of a job.  It seems to be absolutely true UKIP seem to be absolutely absent an invisible.


----------



## ffsear (May 17, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I heard some joking comment that UKIP aren't campaigning very hard because if they're successful they'll be out of a job.  It seems to be absolutely true UKIP seem to be absolutely absent an invisible.




UKIP have pretty much got what they always wanted anyway,  via proxy


----------



## William of Walworth (May 17, 2016)

magneze said:


> The leftwing case for Brexit (one day)
> 
> Bizarre Mason piece. Summary: leave, but not now, in a bit. Like these opportunities come along often.




Bizarre was what I thought too, about that one.

He launches a cogent attack on the EU's capitalist ills, yet can't hold his nose and vote Brexit ....  his reasoning (such as it is) is appallingly expressed, and his 'logic' is explained even more badly.


----------



## Greebozz (May 17, 2016)

It will be so good if the Brexit vote wins.  Just stick it to all the politicians and bureaucrats.  I'm certain the main reason that those in power want us to stay, is just to make life easier for themselves, I would be delighted to have them beavering around trying to sort things out.

And if it takes a long time to disentangle from Europe, no problem and things properly aren't going change to much at all.  I can't believe anyone would want to miss the opportunity to really piss off David Cameron and the European bureaucrats.  Probably the only time the UK people will have an opportunity to do this.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 17, 2016)

There's plenty of equally distrustworthy politicians on the Brexit side though, who are just as much part of the establishment.


----------



## weltweit (May 17, 2016)

Interesting, to me at least, that Boris & Gove think they are so much better to present the leave argument than Farage. Do they really think their personal brands are so much better? because I don't think they are.


----------



## jakethesnake (May 17, 2016)

Johnson is certainly not coming out of this looking very good, the shine is coming off his loveable buffoon schtick. Gove has always been a repellent freak so no change there.


----------



## gosub (May 17, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Interesting, to me at least, that Boris & Gove think they are so much better to present the leave argument than Farage. Do they really think their personal brands are so much better? because I don't think they are.




The whole point of the referendum from a Tory point of view, is to stop disenchanted tories slipping into UKIP.   Last thing they want is to give UKIP a voice.  Actually no, the last thing they would want is to deliver the type of Leave that they are talking up.   

Make it look like you've made an effort whilst losing and accept as many back into the tory fold as possible and paint the rest bad losing obsessives.


----------



## pocketscience (May 17, 2016)

I just had a discussion with a colleague who said that the UK is the the Eu's biggest export nation. After trying to verify this we found a range of varying figures; from this fairly dubious source saying over 16% of Eu exports ar to the UK, while this economist article says its only 3.1%.
From what I've seen the economist is quite partial to Bremain while that fullfact.org site looka like a Boris Brexis propaganda piece.
Can anyone point me to a more reliable source of data for such a fundamental question?


----------



## Greebozz (May 17, 2016)

For the sake of my blood pressure I'm going to step away from posting on the politics forum till after the result of the referendum, I shall naturally be reading what people post here with great interest.


----------



## gosub (May 17, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> I just had a discussion with a colleague who said that the UK is the the Eu's biggest export nation. After trying to verify this we found a range of varying figures, from this fairly dubious source saying over 15% of Eu exports ar to the UK, while this economist article says its only 3.1%.
> From what I've seen the economist is quite partial to Bremain while that fullfact.org site looka like a Boris Brexis propaganda piece.
> Can anyone pount me to a nore reliable source of data on such a fundamental question?


Overseas Trade Statistics 

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_122530.pdf 


Intra-EU trade in goods - recent trends - Statistics Explained


----------



## gosub (May 17, 2016)

That's goods,  services is something else not sure how money washed through Londons stock and insurance markets


----------



## Dogsauce (May 17, 2016)

jakethesnake said:


> Johnson is certainly not coming out of this looking very good, the shine is coming off his loveable buffoon schtick. Gove has always been a repellent freak so no change there.



Any chance he's doing this as a favour to the remain side? I'm beginning to think he might be working undercover.


----------



## jakethesnake (May 17, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Any chance he's doing this as a favour to the remain side? I'm beginning to think he might be working undercover.


It's possible. I think he sees himself as a Churchillian figure and is preparing for his 'wilderness years'.


----------



## J Ed (May 17, 2016)

jakethesnake said:


> It's possible. I think he sees himself as a Churchillian figure and is preparing for his 'wilderness years'.



Hopefully he just kills himself instead


----------



## jakethesnake (May 17, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Hopefully he just kills himself instead


That would be favourite


----------



## pocketscience (May 17, 2016)

gosub said:


> That's goods,  services is something else not sure how money washed through Londons stock and insurance markets


Thanks, but I still couldnt find the data in those links to back up the claims.


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Thanks, but I still couldnt find the data in those links to back up the claims.



Well, from them I could see how Economist got its 3%, and I went away well thinking we can't possibly be importing shed loads of services, but why I added the caveat, is a spanish bank or a Italian insurer washing though London import or export?  Instinct says one thing.  Their natural inclination to cloud everything though ultra complex dealings says ask someone who knows better.


----------



## pocketscience (May 18, 2016)

Yeah, all very hazy. The economist even contradicts itself in another article i found  here stating that 6.6% of Eu goods are exported to the UK.
If i do some rough  calculations from the data in those links, it checks out closer to the 15% favourex bythe brexit lobbyists.

Here are my workings: The OTS page you linked to catagorically states that the UK imported 20.2B in March this year.



> EU Imports for March 2016 were £20.2 billion. This was an increase of £0.8 billion (4.1 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.5 per cent) compared with March 2015.


So looking at the graph on the same page that figure seems consistant throughout the year, therefore we imported around£224b of goods in the past year from the Eu. That's €286B
So compare that to the  eu trade list (2015 totals) you linked to
1. USA - €371B - 20%
2. China -  €170B - 9%

Now when you subtract the UKs exports.to the US from the Eu total exports we could well be on or close to level peggings with the US at round 15/16% or the €300B ball park (at least according to my back of beer mat calcs)

Id love to see what a real economist would make of this. Is the economist (journal)  scaremongering or are the brxiteers misrepresenting our importance as a trading partner for the Eu?


----------



## Greebozz (May 18, 2016)

Sorry I've changed my mind about not posting here, don't judge me, Internet addiction is a disease.

A lot of the nuanced arguments in favour of staying in the EU seem to be at odds with the impression I get that the European Union is in chaos at the moment due to the pressures caused by the migrant crisis.  Dodgy deals with Turkey and countries bristling at the idea of being forced to take migrants.

It seems a world away when the odd silly bit of EU legislation would get in the news.

What is the safe and secure option?

In terms of migration the European politician say Britain, people come here because there are so many welfare benefits, Healthcare etc, they suggest making it less attractive by reducing social welfare.  And I wonder if that fits in rather well with the Tory philosophy.  How's that going to help poor British people of all races and religions and backgrounds.

Contrast that with separating from the EU, choosing how much immigration we want and putting our energies into our own young, black, white, Asian populations, securing their employment future in giving them a better chance to find accommodation and get on the property ladder.

All this talk about being poorer but is money the only thing that matters.  Seems to be that big businesses love migrant workers and the big businesses do all they can to avoid paying tax.

Leaving the EU seems like an eminently suitable idea, we might be so glad we did if Europe descends into chaos financial ruin.

Resist the urge to leap on my back here but mass migration from the Middle East and Africa in vast number.  four new countries are soon to be joining the EU.  And then the possibility of Turkey joining the Schengen area.  Turkey a virtual dictatorship which is next door to the Isis and daily suicide bombing parts of the world.  The idea that those lot could have an easy way for unimpeded travel through Europe, is worrying to me.


----------



## kabbes (May 18, 2016)

magneze said:


> The leftwing case for Brexit (one day)
> 
> Bizarre Mason piece. Summary: leave, but not now, in a bit. Like these opportunities come along often.


What, specifically, do you disagree with though?


----------



## magneze (May 18, 2016)

kabbes said:


> What, specifically, do you disagree with though?


Vote In to leave in a mythical referendum under a possible future Labour government. The rest of it is well thought out, that's a stupid conclusion.


----------



## kabbes (May 18, 2016)

magneze said:


> Vote In to leave in a mythical referendum under a possible future Labour government. The rest of it is well thought out, that's a stupid conclusion.


So it's not the premises, just the conclusion?


----------



## laptop (May 18, 2016)

kabbes said:


> So it's not the premises, just the conclusion?


There are TWO conclusions. 

The sub writing the standfirst understood: "There are many good reasons for the UK to leave the EU. But exiting now would allow Johnson and Gove to turn Britain into a neoliberal fantasy island".


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2016)

laptop said:


> There are TWO conclusions.
> 
> The sub writing the standfirst understood: "There are many good reasons for the UK to leave the EU. But exiting now would allow Johnson and Gove to turn Britain into a neoliberal fantasy island".


Tory majority 12.  Plus they are a minority in Lords


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Sorry I've changed my mind about not posting here, don't judge me, Internet addiction is a disease.
> 
> A lot of the nuanced arguments in favour of staying in the EU seem to be at odds with the impression I get that the European Union is in chaos at the moment due to the pressures caused by the migrant crisis.  Dodgy deals with Turkey and countries bristling at the idea of being forced to take migrants.
> 
> ...



Well as you don't want to think about the technical feasibility of the trade deals or the economic cost of leaving the single market.....How do you expect to get the 69% of MP's that have publicly backed the EU to vote through your immigration lead Leave option?


----------



## Greebozz (May 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> Well as you don't want to think about the technical feasibility of the trade deals or the economic cost of leaving the single market.....How do you expect to get the 69% of MP's that have publicly backed the EU to vote through your immigration lead Leave option?


My background is in sales and business and the ability of Britain to do trade deals if out doesn't concern me in the slightest.  I think leaving the EU will make people in business feel energised and enthusiastic.

I tend not to defer to someone else's opinion even if they are someone as important as a member of Parliament I weighed the decision myself.

Anyway this is nothing to do with with the MPs as it's a public referendum, it is you and I will be deciding.


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> My background is in sales and business and the ability of Britain to do trade deals if out doesn't concern me in the slightest.  I think leaving the EU will make people in business feel energised and enthusiastic.
> 
> I tend not to defer to someone else's opinion even if they are someone as important as a member of Parliament I weighed the decision myself.
> 
> Anyway this is nothing to do with with the MPs as it's a public referendum, it is you and I will be deciding.


These "_people in business" _that you claim will feel "_energised and enthusiastic" _by Brexit...is that the workers or the capitalists?


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> My background is in sales and business and the ability of Britain to do trade deals if out doesn't concern me in the slightest.  I think leaving the EU will make people in business feel energised and enthusiastic.
> 
> I tend not to defer to someone else's opinion even if they are someone as important as a member of Parliament I weighed the decision myself.
> 
> Anyway this is nothing to do with with the MPs as it's a public referendum, it is you and I will be deciding.



If  you look at what vote Leave says happens after winning a referendum:Its down to the government.  The government has already told you there are 4 possible leaves, 2 that involve staying in the single market, two that involve leaving the single market (you'd have to leave the single market to do anything about immigration. In has run a campaign, based on fear primarily on the dangers of leaving the single market.  The only plausible exits therefore EFTA or Swiss model (Swiss model would also take about 8 years rather than the 2 allotted), as squares circle between the MP's arguments and an expressed will of the people.

But I can't stop you banging on about something that won't change as a result of the referendum, which enables the other side to bang on about the dangers posed by things that wouldn't happen as a result of the the referendum. Bit of a waste of a referendum though, a chance to change our relationship with the organisation of Europe (and the world) squandered by banging on about unease with the peoples of EUrope (and the wider world)


----------



## Greebozz (May 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> If  you look at what vote Leave says happens after winning a referendum:Its down to the government.  The government has already told you there are 4 possible leaves, 2 that involve staying in the single market, two that involve leaving the single market (you'd have to leave the single market to do anything about immigration. In has run a campaign, based on fear primarily on the dangers of leaving the single market.  The only plausible exits therefore EFTA or Swiss model (Swiss model would also take about 8 years rather than the 2 allotted), as squares circle between the MP's arguments and an expressed will of the people.
> 
> But I can't stop you banging on about something that won't change as a result of the referendum, which enables the other side to bang on about the dangers posed by things that wouldn't happen as a result of the the referendum. Bit of a waste of a referendum though, a chance to change our relationship with the organisation of Europe (and the world) squandered by banging on about unease with the peoples of EUrope (and the wider world)


People are emotional beings and I think it will make a big difference just to be heard as a nation even if nothing changes.

It's a bit like someone is doing something you don't like, even if you have no power it makes a difference to have expressed oneself.  It also put Britain in a better bargaining position.

We have to each look through the fog and try and feel what's real, to do business with another country I don't think it's a necessary condition for the population of that country to live in your country.  This is evidenced by the way trade happens all round the world and happened in Britain before the EU project.


----------



## weltweit (May 18, 2016)

It isn't just trade, it is also inward investment. In recent years a lot of international companies have invested in factories here in the UK. Partly because English being either easy to learn or already spoken and especially because we are in the European single market. If we leave, many of those factories will likely relocate into the single market area and most likely no new ones will come here.


----------



## jakethesnake (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> For the sake of my blood pressure I'm going to step away from posting on the politics forum till after the result of the referendum, I shall naturally be reading what people post here with great interest.


You're such a tease.


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> People are emotional beings and I think it will make a big difference just to be heard as a nation even if nothing changes.
> 
> It's a bit like someone is doing something you don't like, even if you have no power it makes a difference to have expressed oneself.  It also put Britain in a better bargaining position.
> 
> We have to each look through the fog and try and feel what's real, to do business with another country I don't think it's a necessary condition for the population of that country to live in your country.  This is evidenced by the way trade happens all round the world and happened in Britain before the EU project.





weltweit said:


> It isn't just trade, it is also inward investment. In recent years a lot of international companies have invested in factories here in the UK. Partly because English being either easy to learn or already spoken and especially because we are in the European single market. If we leave, many of those factories will likely relocate into the single market area and most likely no new ones will come here.








35 more days


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> 35 more days


yeh and then fucking 35 weeks or much longer putting up with fucking whining about the result


----------



## weltweit (May 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> 35 more days


??


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh and then fucking 35 weeks or much longer putting up with fucking whining about the result



Not from me.	Either way, the public will have ended up with the politicians they deserve.  Though personally I claim alcohol blackout for what must have been an extended frensy in a mirror shop with a dead albatross.


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2016)

weltweit said:


> ??





gosub said:


> If  you look at what vote Leave says happens after winning a referendum:Its down to the government.  The government has already told you there are 4 possible leaves, 2 that involve staying in the single market, two that involve leaving the single market (you'd have to leave the single market to do anything about immigration. In has run a campaign, based on fear primarily on the dangers of leaving the single market.  The only plausible exits therefore EFTA or Swiss model (Swiss model would also take about 8 years rather than the 2 allotted), as squares circle between the MP's arguments and an expressed will of the people.
> 
> But I can't stop you *banging on about something that won't change as a result of the referendum, which enables the other side to bang on about the dangers posed by things that wouldn't happen as a result of the the referendum. Bit of a waste of a referendum though, a chance to change our relationship with the organisation of Europe (and the world) squandered by banging on about unease with the peoples of EUrope (and the wider world)*


----------



## weltweit (May 18, 2016)

I am not uneasy with our relations with the peoples of Europe, I think we should have close relations


----------



## Pickman's model (May 18, 2016)

gosub said:


> Not from me.	Either way, the public will have ended up with the politicians they deserve.  Though personally I claim alcohol blackout for what must have been an extended frensy in a mirror shop with a dead albatross.


i think you'd be like marcella off the telly, losing your rag and coming too having stomped boris johnson to death, or some other tory bigwig


----------



## krtek a houby (May 18, 2016)

jakethesnake said:


> It's possible. I think he sees himself as a Churchillian figure and is preparing for his 'wilderness years'.



Wish those wilderness years would start now. He's getting an awful lot of attention - for what? A privileged wealthy bully has been who thinks shouting and being vaguely erudite makes him the voice of reason?

The tousled haired fop.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (May 18, 2016)

Has anyone seen a considered EU Referendum debate? It's such a broad topic that all I've seen is mudslinging and fear mongering.

See this one from Farage and Mandelson


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Sorry I've changed my mind about not posting here, don't judge me, Internet addiction is a disease.



You judge immigrants, yet we're not to judge you?

Piss off. 



> A lot of the nuanced arguments in favour of staying in the EU seem to be at odds with the impression I get that the European Union is in chaos at the moment due to the pressures caused by the migrant crisis.  Dodgy deals with Turkey and countries bristling at the idea of being forced to take migrants.



You're conflating the structures with the member states. They're not the same thing. 



> It seems a world away when the odd silly bit of EU legislation would get in the news.
> 
> What is the safe and secure option?
> 
> In terms of migration the European politician say Britain, people come here because there are so many welfare benefits, Healthcare etc...



"The European politician" [sic]? They don't say anything of the sort about Britain. Only British politicians say that, and even then, they're wrong. French and German benefits are slightly better.



> ...they suggest making it less attractive by reducing social welfare.  And I wonder if that fits in rather well with the Tory philosophy.  How's that going to help poor British people of all races and religions and backgrounds.



As if you give a fuck.



> Contrast that with separating from the EU, choosing how much immigration we want and putting our energies into our own young, black, white, Asian populations, securing their employment future in giving them a better chance to find accommodation and get on the property ladder.



The only people who will get to choose how much immigration is wanted, is big business. There won't be easier-to-secure employment futures or accommodation because the same forces that currently limit housing supply, and keep a reserve pool of labour will still be in play. You're living in Bizarro-World if you believe any differently.



> All this talk about being poorer but is money the only thing that matters.  Seems to be that big businesses love migrant workers and the big businesses do all they can to avoid paying tax.
> 
> Leaving the EU seems like an eminently suitable idea, we might be so glad we did if Europe descends into chaos financial ruin.



And you're projecting financial ruin for Europe, but not the UK, based on...?



> Resist the urge to leap on my back here but mass migration from the Middle East and Africa in vast number.



Vast numbers like those that are current for the UK? Or are you conflating the flows to Europe with those to the UK specifically?



> four new countries are soon to be joining the EU.  And then the possibility of Turkey joining the Schengen area.  Turkey a virtual dictatorship which is next door to the Isis and daily suicide bombing parts of the world.  The idea that those lot could have an easy way for unimpeded travel through Europe, is worrying to me.



Turkey has been a "possibility" for 30 years. It's barely progressed from its qualification status then to now. The EU is using an accelerated membership as bait for getting Turkey to do its dirty work with regard to wannabe migrants.

As for "those lot", cunt off, you racist fucknut.


----------



## Greebozz (May 18, 2016)

Violentpanda, I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my post in such detail but it really upsets me being verbally abused and the use of bad language, I'm not accustomed to it.  I have to put you on ignore.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Violentpanda, I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my post in such detail but it really upsets me being verbally abused and the use of bad language, I'm not accustomed to it.  I have to put you on ignore.


Fuck off, cunt.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 18, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It isn't just trade, it is also inward investment. In recent years a lot of international companies have invested in factories here in the UK. Partly because English being either easy to learn or already spoken and especially because we are in the European single market. If we leave, many of those factories will likely relocate into the single market area and most likely no new ones will come here.


Yes we wouldn't want to upset those nice companies would we.

Mind you at least this rubbish is blatant neo-liberalism, no pretending.


----------



## weltweit (May 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Yes we wouldn't want to upset those nice companies would we.


Perhaps you work in some sector that is independent of private companies redsquirrel? but I (and many others) rely on them for our employment.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> and the use of bad language, I'm not accustomed to it.


 
Joined: Nov 10, 2005


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Perhaps you work in some sector that is independent of private companies redsquirrel? but I (and many others) rely on them for our employment.


Wrong way round.


----------



## weltweit (May 18, 2016)

killer b said:


> Wrong way round.


How do you mean?


----------



## ffsear (May 18, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Violentpanda, I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my post in such detail but it really upsets me being verbally abused and the use of bad language, I'm not accustomed to it.  I have to put you on ignore.




You'll need to put his minions on ignore as well.


----------



## killer b (May 18, 2016)

Private companies rely on you (and many others) for their continued profit.


----------



## weltweit (May 18, 2016)

killer b said:


> Private companies rely on you (and many others) for their continued profit.


Ok, I see what you mean. Yes that is also true.


----------



## discokermit (May 18, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Ok, I see what you mean. Yes that is also true.


of course it's true you hen hearted numbskull.


----------



## discokermit (May 18, 2016)

you sneaking puppy.


----------



## discokermit (May 18, 2016)

i've been reading about pirates. can you tell?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 18, 2016)

pirates would vote leave imo


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

ffsear said:


> You'll need to put his minions on ignore as well.


Yes absolutely, I've just realised I can also ignore all the people who like dumb moronic obscene posts.  I'm not up having battles but I urge everyone to attack and harang moronic rude idiots on this forum, drive them off basically.  Get rid of the bullies and the thugs, it'll make the forum a much nicer place and allow better discussions.


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Yes absolutely, I've just realised I can also ignore all the people who like dumb moronic obscene posts.  I'm not up having battles but I urge everyone to attack and harang moronic rude idiots on this forum, drive them off basically.  Get rid of the bullies and the thugs, it'll make the forum a much nicer place and allow better discussions.


Cool :   FUCK OFF CUNT AND STOP USING A REFERENDUM TO PERSUE AN AGENDA IT WON'T ADDRESS


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:
			
		

> Violentpanda, I appreciate you taking the time to comment on my post in such detail but it really upsets me being verbally abused and the use of bad language, I'm not accustomed to it. I have to put you on ignore.





ffsear said:


> You'll need to put *his minions* on ignore as well.



What, the Monothought Urban clique?


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2016)

"Help help I'm being oppressed and bullied by the Urban MC because I'm an immigration-obsessed racist idiot. It's so UNFAIR!!!!"  

< / Greebozz >


----------



## Dogsauce (May 19, 2016)

Collett manning a Vote Leave stall in Leeds.  Keeping it classy.

Ex-BNP man campaigns for Vote Leave in Leeds


----------



## youngian (May 19, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Collett manning a Vote Leave stall in Leeds.  Keeping it classy.
> 
> Ex-BNP man campaigns for Vote Leave in Leeds





> A Vote Leave spokesman said: “He is not part of our campaign. We are a volunteer organisation, but anyone who is or was in the past a BNP campaigner is asked not to campaign for us or to distribute Vote Leave material.”



An unconvincing bit of damage limitation, what do they expect given the tone of their campaign? And Leave need all the help they can get and it won't come from anywhere else. Leave have the anti-immigrant, sanctimonious patriot vote in the bag but they are not reaching out to the centre or the left. Anti-EU campaigners like Paul Mason and Ken Loach both said they will leave their fight for another day as they won't line up with this collection of reactionary piss weasels.


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

youngian said:


> An unconvincing bit of damage limitation, what do they expect given the tone of their campaign? And Leave need all the help they can get and it won't come from anywhere else. Leave have the anti-immigrant, sanctimonious patriot vote in the bag but they are not reaching out to the centre or the left. Anti-EU campaigners like Paul Mason and Ken Loach both said they will leave their fight for another day as they won't line up with this collection of reactionary piss weasels.






DJWrongspeed said:


> Has anyone seen a considered EU Referendum debate? It's such a broad topic that all I've seen is mudslinging and fear mongering.
> 
> See this one from Farage and Mandelson




That Guardian piece is quite telling, but I'm disappointed with Mason & Loach.  Its not like it was easy to get a referendum, down largely to the current dynamics : Tories needed to offer one to shore up their support. But the flip side of that, a government with a slender majority in the Commons and none in the Lords about as good as it gets.  Is truely : If not now then when?


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

I wonder at the effect of the constant drip drip of dire warnings from the BBC, when I check my BBC News feed is was a new voice predicting doom or a new reason from David Cameron while leaving the EU would be a disaster.  The media is a very powerful persuading force.

My only hope is that they will come across as over egging the pudding.  Or at least I hope people will cast their minds back before the election campaigning started in earnest, before the politicians were harridans of doom suddenly.

Personally I think it's slaves being persuaded to vote for their slave masters.that's why the party that favours the rich gets in power yet most of us aren't rich.

BBC interview with a retired British spy regarding migration.

The Migrant Crisis: A Spy Master's Perspective - BBC Radio 4


----------



## krtek a houby (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Yes absolutely, I've just realised I can also ignore all the people who like dumb moronic obscene posts.  I'm not up having battles but I urge everyone to attack and harang moronic rude idiots on this forum, drive them off basically.  Get rid of the bullies and the thugs, it'll make the forum a much nicer place and allow better discussions.



Excellent idea. Can we get rid of the immigration obssessed racists as well?


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

In terms of my ignore list, it's like unarmed soldiers trying to rush a machine gun post, I'm loving it, keep it coming.

Though I will add, do try to make any lying, moronic, slanderous abuse good, because it's the last thing I'll ever read from you on this forum.


----------



## Santino (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> In terms of my ignore list, it's like unarmed soldiers trying to rush a machine gun post, I'm loving it, keep it coming.
> 
> Though I will add, do try to make your lying, moronic, slanderous abuse good, because it's the last thing I'll ever read from you on this forum.


 fuck you


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 19, 2016)

by the time you're finished youl be on this forum arguing with yourself , have fun Greebozz  you utter utter twat


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 19, 2016)




----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

Well if I end up talking to myself at least I can be guaranteed intelligent conversation.  Seriously I am clearing house here in terms of my ignore list. I think the age of the witchfinder general thugs that accuse anyone mentioning immigration of racism, is over.


----------



## YouSir (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Well if I end up talking to myself at least I can be guaranteed intelligent conversation.  Seriously I am clearing house here in terms of my ignore list. I think the age of the witchfinder general thugs that accuse anyone mentioning immigration of racism, is over.



Oh grow the fuck up.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Well if I end up talking to myself at least I can be guaranteed intelligent conversation.  Seriously I am clearing house here in terms of my ignore list. I think the age of the witchfinder general thugs that accuse anyone mentioning immigration of racism, is over.



if you cant see why so many people have a problem with you, and why your ignore list is so huge, why not take a step back and wonder if it might just be you with the problem?

after all, it seems that its all me,me,me, what a victim i am, with you


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Well if I end up talking to myself at least I can be guaranteed intelligent conversation.  Seriously I am clearing house here in terms of my ignore list. I think the age of the witchfinder general thugs that accuse anyone mentioning immigration of racism, is over.


Dunning-Kruger in the house.


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> if you cant see why so many people have a problem with you, and why your ignore list is so huge, why not take a step back and wonder if it might just be you with the problem?
> 
> after all, it seems that its all me,me,me, what a victim i am, with you


I'll bear what you say in mind but I think the people that are giving me abuse and making accusations towards me, are the same sorts of people that join the Morality Police Iran, people who wish to be nasty and bullying yet feel themselves superior.

I feel many people are looking at the European debate as a way to condemn an attack others and get plaudits from their small peer group.  Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?  Like someone being bullied I'm sure many don't dare speak up for fear they too will become a target, and I think that says volumes about this forum.

In terms of putting people on ignore, I would never do that permanently.


----------



## weltweit (May 19, 2016)

discokermit said:


> of course it's true you hen hearted numbskull.


It is a mutual thing though, I need the companies to give me employment, they need me to continue to make profits, but I am not unique, they can find people like me in Poland if they are persuaded to look!


----------



## Smangus (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I feel many people are looking at the European debate as a way to condemn an attack others and get plaudits from their small peer group.  Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?  .




We think you're a knob head.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'll bear what you say in mind but I think the people that are giving me abuse and making accusations towards me, are the same sorts of people that join the Morality Police Iran, people who wish to be nasty and bullying yet feel themselves superior.
> 
> I feel many people are looking at the European debate as a way to condemn an attack others and get plaudits from their small peer group.  Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?  Like someone being bullied I'm sure many don't dare speak up for fear they too will become a target, and I think that says volumes about this forum.
> 
> In terms of putting people on ignore, I would never do that permanently.


You're not being bullied you're being exposed for spouting racist drivel , you're the one putting everyone on ignore as you cant see why people who take offence,throw offence back at you and you cant handle it , you're further exposing yourself pathetically playing the victim card and being all a bit me,me...

poor little you eh ?


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> You're not being bullied you're being exposed for spouting racist drivel , you're the one putting everyone on ignore as you cant see why people who take offence,throw offence back at you and you cant handle it , you're further exposing yourself pathetically playing the victim card and being all a bit me,me...
> 
> poor little you eh ?


Cheerio.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 19, 2016)

lol , cant take it can ya


----------



## laptop (May 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> Dunning-Kruger in the house.


*looks up*

*likes*


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

I urge everyone to stand up to people who call you a racist if you talk about immigration or Britain coming out of Europe.  It feels great.

I believe we have a Tory government and barely functioning Labour Party because for years on the Labour side, if anyone mentioned immigration, the attack dogs and thugs of the left would humiliate and belittle them.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 19, 2016)

Are you still here?


----------



## nino_savatte (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'll bear what you say in mind but I think the people that are giving me abuse and making accusations towards me, are the same sorts of people that join the Morality Police Iran, people who wish to be nasty and bullying yet feel themselves superior.
> 
> I feel many people are looking at the European debate as a way to condemn an attack others and get plaudits from their small peer group.  Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?  Like someone being bullied I'm sure many don't dare speak up for fear they too will become a target, and I think that says volumes about this forum.
> 
> In terms of putting people on ignore, I would never do that permanently.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?  Like someone being bullied I'm sure many don't dare speak up for fear they too will become a target..



First they came for the racist bellends, and Greebozz spoke up...


----------



## stethoscope (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?



They all think you're a dick too


----------



## Dogsauce (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?



No, the thread has been viewed more than 60,000 times, not viewed more than 60,000 times by different people.

Does that count as a 'flood' or 'swarm' of views in your book?

What is it with racists and maths?


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> No, the thread has been viewed more than 60,000 times, not viewed more than 60,000 times by different people.
> 
> Does that count as a 'flood' or 'swarm' of views in your book?
> 
> What is it with racists and maths?


The purpose of me posting on this thread is to highlight the problems with Europe and give reasons to leave the EU.  I might be wrong in my opinions but I think I'm coming across far more intelligent than the handful of people who have been giving me rather dumb verbal abuse.  My audience is silent majority reading the comments on this forum and I think I'm doing very well.  If we vote to leave the EU it will truly be one of the greatest days of my life and I think it'll be great every single person living in the UK, I'm utterly passionate about it.  The whole argument about leaving the EU is based on fear and depression.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I might be wrong in my opinions but I think I'm coming across far more intelligent than the handful of people who have been giving me rather dumb verbal abuse.  My audience is silent majority reading the comments on this forum and I think I'm doing very well.


----------



## inva (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The purpose of me posting on this thread is to highlight the problems with Europe and give reasons to leave the EU.  I might be wrong in my opinions but I think I'm coming across far more intelligent than the handful of people who have been giving me rather dumb verbal abuse.  My audience is silent majority reading the comments on this forum and I think I'm doing very well.  If we vote to leave the EU it will truly be one of the greatest days of my life and I think it'll be great every single person living in the UK, I'm utterly passionate about it.  The whole argument about leaving the EU is based on fear and depression.


speaking as an up til now member of the silent majority, you're a blatant troll and a boring twat


----------



## Libertad (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> My audience is silent majority reading the comments on this forum and I think I'm doing very well.



I'm sure that you've received many PMs of support.


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> No, the thread has been viewed more than 60,000 times, not viewed more than 60,000 times by different people.
> 
> Does that count as a 'flood' or 'swarm' of views in your book?
> 
> What is it with racists and maths?



60483/2310= 26.18	  I'd  say readership <40


----------



## YouSir (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The purpose of me posting on this thread is to highlight the problems with Europe and give reasons to leave the EU.  I might be wrong in my opinions but I think I'm coming across far more intelligent than the handful of people who have been giving me rather dumb verbal abuse.  My audience is silent majority reading the comments on this forum and I think I'm doing very well.  If we vote to leave the EU it will truly be one of the greatest days of my life and I think it'll be great every single person living in the UK, I'm utterly passionate about it.  The whole argument about leaving the EU is based on fear and depression.



Speaking as someone half inclined to vote leave I think you're a sad, immature cunt incapable of having a real discussion.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 19, 2016)

well as long as he thinks he is doing ok eh ?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 19, 2016)

its these dickheads magnified into horror forms like grassroots go etc that make me want to abstain but it looks like a comfortable remain anyway so I shall stand firm as it won't happen . Cock and balls will not get this vote, it will go to exit.


----------



## Greebozz (May 19, 2016)

Okay people you win, I've been defeated, I'm actually quite impressed.  It's quite bruising arguing like we have been, I feel pretty dinged up.  I'm going to let go of the whole issue.


----------



## youngian (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I urge everyone to stand up to people who call you a racist if you talk about immigration or Britain coming out of Europe.  It feels great.
> I believe we have a Tory government and barely functioning Labour Party because for years on the Labour side, if anyone mentioned immigration, the attack dogs and thugs of the left would humiliate and belittle them.



Then you would have liked Jeremy Corbyn's opening EU speech in which he talked at length about the need to tackle problems caused by EU freedom of movement; living wage enforcement, wage councils, easier collective bargaining recognition, EU regional grants to local area needing funds for infrastructure expansion and an EU-wide minimum wage. But if you mean by the immigration debate too many carrot pickers talking funny foreign languages down Tesco in Spalding then no Jeremy didn't mention immigration.


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

youngian said:


> Then you would have liked Jeremy Corbyn's opening EU speech in which he talked at length about the need to tackle problems caused by EU freedom of movement; living wage enforcement, wage councils, easier collective bargaining recognition, EU regional grants to local area needing funds for infrastructure expansion and an EU-wide minimum wage. But if you mean by the immigration debate too many carrot pickers talking funny foreign languages down Tesco in Spalding then no Jeremy didn't mention immigration.


???A pan EUropean mimimum wage would be lower than the UK one


----------



## chilango (May 19, 2016)

Fucking hell


----------



## newharper (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'll bear what you say in mind but I think the people that are giving me abuse and making accusations towards me, are the same sorts of people that join the Morality Police Iran, people who wish to be nasty and bullying yet feel themselves superior.
> 
> I feel many people are looking at the European debate as a way to condemn an attack others and get plaudits from their small peer group.  Nearly 60,000 people have viewed this thread, what do they think?  Like someone being bullied I'm sure many don't dare speak up for fear they too will become a target, and I think that says volumes about this forum.
> 
> In terms of putting people on ignore, I would never do that permanently.



I'm a lurker on this thread and fuck off.


----------



## andysays (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> The purpose of me posting on this thread is to highlight the problems with Europe and give reasons to leave the EU.  I might be wrong in my opinions but I think I'm coming across far more intelligent than the handful of people who have been giving me rather dumb verbal abuse.  *My audience is silent majority reading the comments on this forum* and I think I'm doing very well.  If we vote to leave the EU it will truly be one of the greatest days of my life and I think it'll be great every single person living in the UK, I'm utterly passionate about it.  The whole argument about leaving the EU is based on fear and depression.



I'd be willing to bet there are long-term lurkers reading this thread who have signed up as new members simply so they can put you on ignore and avoid your poisonous drivel, you pompous, self-centred, self aggrandising deluded fool.

And should I add that you're a racist cunt, just for good measure...


----------



## YouSir (May 19, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Okay people you win, I've been defeated, I'm actually quite impressed.  It's quite bruising arguing like we have been, I feel pretty dinged up.  I'm going to let go of the whole issue.



No you're not, you're going to disappear for twenty minutes then start whining again.


----------



## weltweit (May 19, 2016)

So it seems it was 20 odd pro brexit tory MPs who forced a government climb down by agreeing to legislate to keep the NHS out of TTIP. I assume they doubt they will achieve brexit which would bring its own protection?


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2016)

weltweit said:


> So it seems it was 20 odd pro brexit tory MPs *who forced a government climb down by agreeing to legislate to keep the NHS out of TTIP*.



Source please? 



> I assume they doubt they will achieve *brexit which would bring its own protection?*



It would?


----------



## weltweit (May 19, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Source please?


It was on the BBC R4 news but also David Cameron moves to head off TTIP rebellion - BBC News


----------



## Libertad (May 19, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Source please?
> 
> 
> 
> It would?



David Cameron moves to head off TTIP rebellion - BBC News


----------



## Libertad (May 19, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It was on the BBC R4 news but also David Cameron moves to head off TTIP rebellion - BBC News



Snap.


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

weltweit said:


> So it seems it was 20 odd pro brexit tory MPs who forced a government climb down by agreeing to legislate to keep the NHS out of TTIP. I assume they doubt they will achieve brexit which would bring its own protection?


Web stats between leave /remain  don't look promising and the leadership hopefuls playing 'murder of gonzago'  kicked the floor from under us with the unobtainable 'outside the single market'.	Keeping the likes of Greebooz sweet more important than credibilty apparently.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2016)

Libertad 's link :

OK, hadn't caught up with that, thanks.

But the second assumption (that I've bolded) in that post up there from weltweit is still dubious no?


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Source please?
> 
> 
> 
> It would?


TTIP wouldn't apply


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2016)

I remain to be convinced by that gosub  ...


----------



## weltweit (May 19, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> .. But the second assumption (that I've bolded) in that post up there from weltweit is still dubious no?


The US is making the TTIP deal with the EU, if the UK leaves the EU surely it would be outside the EU, almost by definition no?


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> I remain to be convinced by that gosub  ...


A treaty been two parties that aren't you, doesn't apply to you.   Not difficult 


Fall out would have been rEU starts negations again and ends up in UK to do list after sorting relationship with rEU


----------



## William of Walworth (May 19, 2016)

_Direct_ logic says you're both right, but *capitalist* logic suggests I'm sensible to be underconvinced.

Main driver of TTIP is the US.

Off to bed. Back tomorrow or at the w/e.


----------



## youngian (May 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> ???A pan EUropean mimimum wage would be lower than the UK one


I should have explained that better; the proposal is to set national minimum wages at similar percentage level of the country's mean average wage. I think but it's not a policy for a pan-EU minimum wage.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> A treaty been two parties that aren't you, doesn't apply to you.   Not difficult


And the UK gets its own even more supine version?

The UK doesn't have a good track record in independent negotiations with the US. Non-reciprocal extradition treaties, for example.


----------



## gosub (May 19, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And the UK gets its own even more supine version?
> 
> The UK doesn't have a good track record in independent negotiations with the US. Non-reciprocal extradition treaties, for example.


Not this side of a general election if at all.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 19, 2016)

gosub said:


> Not this side of a general election if at all.


Or it could be the outgoing bastards' dying fuck-you. Like Major's privatisation of the railways.

I think it was only Poland in Europe who also signed up to the extradition terms. Most countries had constitutions and stuff that prevented it, as does the US, ironically enough, hence it's unreciprocal. That was Blair, these are likely to be the same - 'Don't worry, we don't really have a constitution, lol. '


----------



## Draygo (May 19, 2016)

Apologies if this has already been posted (it probably has), but Paul Mason captures the resigned, reluctant, fatalistic reasons I'll be wearily ticking the remain box (plenty of good facts here too.)

The leftwing case for Brexit (one day)

Short version - EU is shit, Boris run neo-liberal theme park/hell holewhich _would_ happen if we left would be even shitter, and much so.


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Or it could be the outgoing bastards' dying fuck-you. Like Major's privatisation of the railways.
> 
> I think it was only Poland in Europe who also signed up to the extradition terms. Most countries had constitutions and stuff that prevented it, as does the US, ironically enough, hence it's unreciprocal. That was Blair, these are likely to be the same - 'Don't worry, we don't really have a constitution, lol. '


Tory majority 12 and no majority in the the Lords...


----------



## youngian (May 20, 2016)

Draygo said:


> Apologies if this has already been posted (it probably has), but Paul Mason captures the resigned, reluctant, fatalistic reasons I'll be wearily ticking the remain box (plenty of good facts here too.)
> 
> The leftwing case for Brexit (one day)
> 
> Short version - EU is shit, Boris run neo-liberal theme park/hell holewhich _would_ happen if we left would be even shitter, and much so.



Not only is the Brexit left-wing flank crumbling but they're not even reaching out to the centre. Spare a thought for poor Nigel, he's waited for this gig all his life only to be swept aside and out-looned by the Tory headbangers doing an even worse job than he would. 

I attended a referendum debate in which they'd toned down the immigrant rhetoric, focused on trade deals and inserted the caveat; "I love Europe but I'm anti-EU." Peter Lilley couldn't wait for the audience to hear all about his gite in France. It was like David Brent telling the black man in the office how much he liked Bob Marley.


----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Overlooking it's Ren_tool _tweeting it...this is quite cute...



What if the old folk know a thing or two and you don't have to do resign yourself to wearily voting remain.


----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

Thanks to brogdale for posting this earlier


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2016)

Johnson & Gove becoming the leading speakers for the brexit campaign has massively solidified my intention to vote remain. So if the country votes out they will be in charge, er - no - no thanks!


----------



## kabbes (May 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> What if the old folk know a thing or two and you don't have to do resign yourself to wearily voting remain.


What the fuck are you doing back here again, you whining little racist?  You said you'd given up on this thread.  For once, stick to a fucking promise.


----------



## NoXion (May 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Johnson & Gove becoming the leading speakers for the brexit campaign has massively solidified my intention to vote remain. So if the country votes out they will be in charge, er - no - no thanks!



I eagerly await your decision to stop eating sugar because Hitler ate it. Unless you have reasons for voting remain that have nothing to do with personalities?


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2016)

NoXion said:


> I eagerly await your decision to stop eating sugar because Hitler ate it. Unless you have reasons for voting remain that have nothing to do with personalities?


Let it be known NoXion that it is you, not I, that has brought Hitler into this debate! 

I have plenty of reasons to vote remain, Johnson and Gove being just one of many.


----------



## YouSir (May 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Johnson & Gove becoming the leading speakers for the brexit campaign has massively solidified my intention to vote remain. So if the country votes out they will be in charge, er - no - no thanks!



Preferring instead David Cameron... Plus a Leave vote would be a huge boot to the ribs of the Tories. Boris may imagine that he's heir apparent but those on Cameron's side won't just disappear into the ether. Would make Labour's anti-Corbyn wing look like models of solidarity.

Besides, it won't always be a Tory government, being influenced by our current landscape is an easy way to miss the bigger point.


----------



## NoXion (May 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Let it be known NoXion that it is you, not I, that has brought Hitler into this debate!
> 
> I have plenty of reasons to vote remain, Johnson and Gove being just one of many.



Why not mention them?


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2016)

YouSir said:


> .. Besides, it won't always be a Tory government, being influenced by our current landscape is an easy way to miss the bigger point.


I am voting on the bigger picture, whether to remain in the EU or not, no matter who is in power in the UK.


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Why not mention them?


I have mentioned many of my reasons already on this thread.


----------



## J Ed (May 20, 2016)




----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

It amazes me how some people express themselves, I wonder if they've ever been employed or partake in the real world.  Because some people talk as if there whole world is hanging round the local skate park or playground, smoking crappy imitation drugs acting like plastic gangsters.


----------



## kabbes (May 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> It amazes me how some people express themselves, I wonder if they've ever been employed or partake in the real world.  Because some people talk as if there whole world is hanging round the local skate park or playground, smoking crappy imitation drugs acting like plastic gangsters.


It amazes me how nasty little racists say their nasty little racist things and then act all injured and hurt when the people they have insulted respond in kind.

Now fuck off, like you promised.


----------



## YouSir (May 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> It amazes me how some people express themselves, I wonder if they've ever been employed or partake in the real world.  Because some people talk as if there whole world is hanging round the local skate park or playground, smoking crappy imitation drugs acting like plastic gangsters.



Your derailing is getting fucking tiring.


----------



## J Ed (May 20, 2016)

This person is contributing nothing and they are preventing serious discussion on an important topic.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 20, 2016)

with most of us on ignore


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 20, 2016)

seriously tho, with regards to the tory personalities on each side, all of them are odious , hateful people but unfortunately this referendum is too important to let that get in the way , we have to look beyond that


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2016)

The personalities are one thing, but they are transitory. Britain has an enviable position in the EU, we did not join the euro which I think is a good thing, we did not embrace Schengen, also good, and now we have a referendum on the transfer of any further powers which is important.

For economic (single market) reasons I want to stay in, but I also want to stay in to be part of steering the EU in the future. Plenty have poo-poo'd the idea that the EU has helped cement peace on the continent but I believe it has and I want to continue working with our neighbours closely in the Union.


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

J Ed said:


>



YouGov |  Revealed: new evidence reveals greater skews in phone polls



Personally what I'm getting from the polling data is too close to call.   Voteleavetakecontrol.org Traffic Statistics  is more depressing


----------



## weltweit (May 20, 2016)

There is only one poll that matters!


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> with most of us on ignore


temporarily applied the ignore people who've called greebozz racist/twat/cunt..or generally told him to fuck off.

J Ed, NoXion, weltwelt   The comment must be aimed at one of you.


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> There is only one poll that matters!


Lech Wałęsa? or Pope John Paul 2?


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> temporarily applied the ignore people who've called greebozz racist/twat/cunt..or generally told him to fuck off.
> 
> J Ed, NoXion, weltwelt   The comment must be aimed at one of you.


no he ignored me yesterday, did you not see the 'Cherio' post he sent me ?


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

ruffneck23 said:


> no he ignored me yesterday, did you not see the 'Cherio' post he sent me ?


Yep, I had you ticked when I did the ignore filter  : the three listed are the only contributors whom have not been beastly


----------



## andysays (May 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Johnson & Gove becoming the leading speakers for the brexit campaign has massively solidified my intention to vote remain. So if the country votes out they will be in charge, er - no - no thanks!



Johnson & Gove are both cunts, as are many other high-profile supporters of leaving the EU, but if the vote is to leave, neither they or any of the other cunts will automatically be "in charge".


----------



## redsquirrel (May 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The personalities are one thing, but they are transitory. Britain has an enviable position in the EU, we did not join the euro which I think is a good thing, we did not embrace Schengen, also good, and now we have a referendum on the transfer of any further powers which is important.
> 
> For economic (single market) reasons I want to stay in, but I also want to stay in to be part of steering the EU in the future. Plenty have poo-poo'd the idea that the EU has helped cement peace on the continent but I believe it has and I want to continue working with our neighbours closely in the Union.


When does your application for the LibDems come through?


----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

weltweit said:


> The personalities are one thing, but they are transitory. Britain has an enviable position in the EU, we did not join the euro which I think is a good thing, we did not embrace Schengen, also good, and now we have a referendum on the transfer of any further powers which is important.
> 
> For economic (single market) reasons I want to stay in, but I also want to stay in to be part of steering the EU in the future. Plenty have poo-poo'd the idea that the EU has helped cement peace on the continent but I believe it has and I want to continue working with our neighbours closely in the Union.


I agree particularly in terms of idiots on the UKIP side but if the vote is out they will no longer exist as a party and may also stop drawing votes away from Labour.

Personally I'm not sure about the argument of being in Europe, so we can "be at the table", the idea being that we can direct the direction of Europe.

As part of Europe we have one vote out of 27.  This equates to a 3.57 percent controlling vote, is not a great deal to give up in return for complete control of our own destiny as a country.  If the UK is out I think it will be old to react far faster to world situations compared to being suffocated in the vast bureaucracy of the EU


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> It amazes me how some people express themselves, I wonder if they've ever been employed or partake in the real world.  Because some people talk as if there whole world is hanging round the local skate park or playground, smoking crappy imitation drugs acting like plastic gangsters.



Most people are capable of tailoring their self-expression to different situations, and do so. For you to draw inferences about them from how they represent themselves on the board is risible and juvenile.

In your case, I'd say exactly the same to you in real life, as I've said to you on here. I hate racism, and I've always been straightforward about calling racists out in public. Racists need to be shamed. *YOU* need to be shamed.


----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

I'll just add, we've got pretty awful politicians running the country, but that could change we can have good politicians the make Britain fairer and care about the environment, we could outdo Europe in terms of all the good things that they have helped with in terms of protecting workers and the environment.  To me there is an exciting future compared to the alternative, the depression of everything being bogged down, endless bickering and arguments between member states of the EU and the feeling of utter powerlessness.


----------



## teqniq (May 20, 2016)

This must be some parallel universe that I have been hitherto unacquainted with


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2016)

*A WOMAN cannot decide which way to vote in the EU referendum because she fancies Jude Law but loathes Keira Knightley. *

Joanna Kramer, from Stoke-on-Trent, says the letter from 250 British stars backing the Remain campaign has confused the issue because of her conflicting feelings about them.

She added: “If Paloma Faith backs staying in the EU then I’m out, because she’s an irritating tart with a well common voice. So you’d think the issue would be settled.

“But then Benedict Cumberbatch is in, and he’s lush, but then Jessie Ware’s signed and she really annoys me, though come to think of it I’ve mixed her up with Jessie J.

“Really it does come down to Law and Knightley, because he’s gorgeous even though he has gone bald and she can’t act and is nothing but a posh slag.

“What to do, what to do? I think I’ll wait and see what Adele says. She’s never led me wrong.”


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> *A WOMAN cannot decide which way to vote in the EU referendum because she fancies Jude Law but loathes Keira Knightley. *
> 
> Joanna Kramer, from Stoke-on-Trent, says the letter from 250 British stars backing the Remain campaign has confused the issue because of her conflicting feelings about them.
> 
> ...



Daily Mash tbf


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 20, 2016)

Did anyone watch Paxman last night?

Paxman in Brussels: Who Really Rules Us?

I thought it was quite enjoyable without bias to either side, but even knowing he's a tory I couldn't tell which way he'd vote by the end.


----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

I've got a lot of people on ignore, so if anyone is talking shit about me that I can't see, then kindly get stuffed.  If not then disregard that and please continue as you were.


----------



## kabbes (May 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I've got a lot of people on ignore, so if anyone is talking shit about me that I can't see, then kindly get stuffed.  If not then disregard that and please continue as you were.


As if you don't know, you nasty little thin-skinned racist.


----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Did anyone watch Paxman last night?
> 
> Paxman in Brussels: Who Really Rules Us?
> 
> I thought it was quite enjoyable without bias to either side, but even knowing he's a tory I couldn't tell which way he'd vote by the end.


To me everything from the BBC is a total puff piece about Europe, everything so fluffy and friendly.  "Oh we like a big family of course we argue a lot".,  It's all smiles until we get ensnared.  It's almost like a time capsule of the image of the European Union from about 5 years ago.  There wasn't much discussion about forced quotas of Syrian migrants or the dodgy Turkey deal.

I'm from a business background and people can be all lovey-dovey but if you don't have any power in a contract, you don't have any.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> Daily Mash tbf




Most accurate news outlet available for information regarding the referendum tbh.


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Most accurate news outlet available for information regarding the referendum tbh.


the official campaigns  are beyond parody.


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> To me everything from the BBC is a total puff piece about Europe, everything so fluffy and friendly.  "Oh we like a big family of course we argue a lot".,  It's all smiles until we get ensnared.  It's almost like a time capsule of the image of the European Union from about 5 years ago.  There wasn't much discussion about forced quotas of Syrian migrants or the dodgy Turkey deal.
> 
> I'm from a business background and people can be all lovey-dovey but if you don't have any power in a contract, you don't have any.



Don't get me started on the BBC:  all those so called "science" programs Professor Jim makes.....not one polar bear!  How can you have a science program without polar bears  And they are wasting our license fee remaking Watership Down, I bet you there's no polar bears in that either.


----------



## gosub (May 20, 2016)

Leaving the EU will change almost nothing – to start with 








 finally


----------



## Libertad (May 20, 2016)

gosub said:


> Leaving the EU will change almost nothing – to start with
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's frothy subsidiarity maan.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (May 20, 2016)

Free online course on the EU Referendum from the Open University/FutureLearn, if anyone's interested (greebozz) - starts 13 June for three weeks.

Towards Brexit? The UK's EU Referendum - The University of Edinburgh

(I've done a few of these FutureLearn courses before, they're generally pretty good, they start off pretty basic then get into the detail and give you the chance to research the more involved stuff.)


----------



## Greebozz (May 20, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Free online course on the EU Referendum from the Open University/FutureLearn, if anyone's interested (greebozz) - starts 13 June for three weeks.
> 
> Towards Brexit? The UK's EU Referendum - The University of Edinburgh
> 
> (I've done a few of these FutureLearn courses before, they're generally pretty good, they start off pretty basic then get into the detail and give you the chance to research the more involved stuff.)


I'm going to think about it for a day or two but I think I might do that course, I'm very tempted, thanks for posting the link here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 20, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'll just add, we've got pretty awful politicians running the country, but that could change we can have good politicians the make Britain fairer and care about the environment, we could outdo Europe in terms of all the good things that they have helped with in terms of protecting workers and the environment.  To me there is an exciting future compared to the alternative, the depression of everything being bogged down, endless bickering and arguments between member states of the EU and the feeling of utter powerlessness.



Bad politics has bugger-all to do with being in or out of Europe, you fruitbat. It has to do with neoliberalism being the current economic and political consensus.


----------



## gosub (May 21, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Bad politics has bugger-all to do with being in or out of Europe, you fruitbat. It has to do with neoliberalism being the current economic and political consensus.


Actually it does.  The Murder of Gonzago brigade are unfortunately showing we have no-one capable of Captaining a life-boat. And Corbyn's got other fish to fry.


----------



## gosub (May 21, 2016)

House prices face 18% hit  if Britain quits EU, says George Osborne


Average age of first time buyer 38.	Average age of UK population 40.  That's a large chunk to disregard.

Moody's reckon on balance betters for  first time buyers


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 21, 2016)

I'd like to see them fall ten-fold.


----------



## gosub (May 21, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'd like to see them fall ten-fold.


+ higher interest rates for older mortgage paid off voters....


----------



## redsquirrel (May 21, 2016)

Guardian link above said:
			
		

> As the 23 June vote draws closer, Downing Street intends to point to a growing range of independent bodies who are on their side, such as the Bank of England, OECD and International Monetary Fund, as well as business chiefs and world leaders.


Oh well that's changed my mind, who could possible disagree with these _independent_ voices.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 21, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> What if the old folk know a thing or two and you don't have to do resign yourself to wearily voting remain.



If the old folk knew anything then maybe they would have stopped reading the Express and the Mail for their daily dose of bile. The politics of the right inclined over 50s is a 'down with that sort of thing' two fingers up to 'political correctness' or 'health and safety' new things and foreign things. The poorer ones are throwing in their lot with belligerent politicians like Boris and Farage who would not piss on them if they were on fire.

They have real grievances and problems, like how difficult it is for their kids to be housed, but to address them they side with a political class that sells of housing and invites the world to treat UK housing as an investment vehicle.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 21, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> There's plenty of equally distrustworthy politicians on the Brexit side though, who are just as much part of the establishment.



Bit mild. Name _one_ you would trust.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 21, 2016)

I'd tend to follow the old question "Why is this bastard lying to me?" with any of them. 

I have a weakness for Corbyn though


----------



## brogdale (May 21, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> If the old folk knew anything then maybe they would have stopped reading the Express and the Mail for their daily dose of bile. The politics of the right inclined over 50s is a 'down with that sort of thing' two fingers up to 'political correctness' or 'health and safety' new things and foreign things. The poorer ones are throwing in their lot with belligerent politicians like Boris and Farage who would not piss on them if they were on fire.
> 
> They have real grievances and problems, like how difficult it is for their kids to be housed, but to address them they side with a political class that sells of housing and invites the world to treat UK housing as an investment vehicle.


All that discontent with the effects of the (neoliberal) abandonment of the post-war social 'contract' has to be channelled/deflected somewhere...and remember, for "_Generation EuroRef2.0_" identity politics won't do the trick.


----------



## Greebozz (May 21, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> If the old folk knew anything then maybe they would have stopped reading the Express and the Mail for their daily dose of bile. The politics of the right inclined over 50s is a 'down with that sort of thing' two fingers up to 'political correctness' or 'health and safety' new things and foreign things. The poorer ones are throwing in their lot with belligerent politicians like Boris and Farage who would not piss on them if they were on fire.
> 
> They have real grievances and problems, like how difficult it is for their kids to be housed, but to address them they side with a political class that sells of housing and invites the world to treat UK housing as an investment vehicle.


You know how old people generally don't really like modern pop music that you don't see many oldies growing their beards out and getting trendy tattoos.  Since I reached my 40s, I know more who I am And that my body had definitely started falling to bits.

Point is, like fashion, I think propaganda has very little traction when one gets older.  All my thoughts about the EU referendum are based on my own thoughts.  In regard to news media I want to know what's happening low interest in someone's opinion piece.

My reasons for wanting to leave the EU is largely based on my own personal assessment which is based on reasons that convinced me.

Example what I know really works, is giving part of the UK more control of their own affairs.  For example Wales and Scotland having control about the political issues that affect their own regions.  It energises the politics and filled people with excitement and interest.

Save if you're doing a group project, if you know someone is particularly passionate about a certain area, you get them to do it.  That the supporters of a football team are far more passionate about the future of the club than some overseas business conglomeration

In my life I have observed many soul sucking bureaucracies that I feel who deliberately make ever more complexity to make themselves indispensable and unfirable.

When I hear anyone "of course there are problems that we need to talk about" I die inside because if you have no power you are ignored and you stop asking.

I've had experience of being mired in dangerous contracts.  I've had good and bad experience of communal living and if you create a commune with a whole bunch of hippies and members of the local rugby team there may probably be problems down the line.

I could go on listing reasons, for my preference to leave the EU.  I could be wrong, but don't tell me the reason for my opinion is because I read the Daily Mail or some other newspaper because I can assure you I do not.


----------



## butchersapron (May 21, 2016)

Drivel


----------



## Greebozz (May 21, 2016)

Accidental repost while rolling my eyes at butchers apron.  I got some more drivel, what I write is like a dog whistle to anyone with intelligence.  The problem is stupid people that they've no idea they are stupid but tend to be loud and moronic.  Urban used to be a great forum now it's infested by idiots and moronic children masquerading as adults.  You think they're clever for writing the word drivel but in reality they don't have the skill to write anything more complex.  Butchers apron you are an complete fucking twat.  I've had enough of this forum, enjoy your one word moronic comment you total fucking arsehole.


----------



## teqniq (May 21, 2016)

Are you quoting yourself now because nobody else is paying any attention?


----------



## Nylock (May 21, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Are you quoting yourself now because nobody else is paying any attention?


Its because everyone else is on ignore


----------



## two sheds (May 21, 2016)

Is this flounce no. 3?


----------



## weltweit (May 21, 2016)

It is all very well scaring people about EU immigration but surely there are natural limits from any source. There are only so many houses for example and when they are full up the only place left is the street!


----------



## Ranbay (May 21, 2016)

Lots of people seem to think that once we leave there will be no immigration. that worries me as these people have the right to vote.


----------



## gosub (May 21, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> If the old folk knew anything then maybe they would have stopped reading the Express and the Mail for their daily dose of bile. The politics of the right inclined over 50s is a 'down with that sort of thing' two fingers up to 'political correctness' or 'health and safety' new things and foreign things. The poorer ones are throwing in their lot with belligerent politicians like Boris and Farage who would not piss on them if they were on fire.
> 
> They have real grievances and problems, like how difficult it is for their kids to be housed, but to address them they side with a political class that sells of housing and invites the world to treat UK housing as an investment vehicle.


That ignores the issue entirely and bangs on about immigration.

Its Osbourne and IN (who have the likes of Goldman Sachs on-board) thats just signalled his desire to keep UK housing as a world class global investment.   Out -a load of disgruntled pensioners talking to themselves. In -the gruntled face of global corporatism. The younger generation in a vicious circle of not engaging coz there's nothing in it for them, leading to them being taken for granted and not being offered anything.

The 18% figure is daft, but breaking the current system definitely in long term best interests -house prices rising faster than any savings for a deposit. Interest rates would rise -but the 40k of student debt isn't on the same terms as ordinary debt, and that is limited in scope by the banks (who Gideon clearly listens to) who would worry about being stuck with too much junk with borrowers choosing bankruptcy instead.

So that would leave a failing pound.  That would actually  make us more competitive and more attractive to inward investment and with that comes jobs.  Yes, you'd have inflationary pressure as imports became more expensive but if you look at our recordly fucked balance of trade that's something that should be being addressed anyway.  Or is the aim to ensure our growing numbers of homeless can have a BMW to sleep in.


Meanwhile the blunder-bus rumbles on blithely informing people that if we trash farming we'll have £350  million a week extra for the NHS -for glucose drips and vitamin tablets presumably.  The young? Sorted -they'll all be busy at Glastonbury or the football, or coming home from University, don't worry about them.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 21, 2016)

Unashamedly racist campaigning from the Vote Leave isolationists. Racist scumsuckers that they are.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 22, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It is all very well scaring people about EU immigration but surely there are natural limits from any source. There are only so many houses for example and when they are full up the only place left is the street!


So your contention is that when housing is "full" immigration to the UK will stop? Even if true (and it's quite clearly not is it) do you really think that is going to address the concerns many people have about immigration?


----------



## Sue (May 22, 2016)

I'm finding this all a bit depressing. Was out tonight with some friends who're sound if not very political. They reckon that leave is bollocks because they associate it with Farage/right wing Tories which, to be fair, is very much how it's being presented.

I'm unsure how to vote but said there were perfectly good left wing reasons to vote out. This was the first time they'd ever heard this discussed from anything other than a right-wing point of view. It's fucking rubbish that the narrative on all this is all coming from the Right.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 22, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Complete bollocks edited out for brevity


I thought you were going? You're still here.


----------



## youngian (May 22, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I'm from a business background and people can be all lovey-dovey but if you don't have any power in a contract, you don't have any.


Contracts and treaties are easy concepts for grown-ups to understand: if you agree to A you will get B, shake hands, sign a deal and we can all get on with business. Nursery children however cannot sign contracts because they cry, throw down their toys and think everything is about me me me without having the intellectual faculties to see the wider picture.


----------



## gosub (May 22, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Unashamedly racist campaigning from the Vote Leave isolationists. Racist scumsuckers that they are.




I'm not  seeing overt racism. Extremely ill advised certainly and I don't get the NHS bit at all, but strip that out, and you could run the same ad in a Turkey were it to  start considering it position within NATO. 


Each and every one of the EU's 28 states has the unilateral right to block a new members application.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2016)

Cameron : "_For the first time ever we could face a recession brought on by ourselves..._"

So, all that stuff about public spending causing the post-2008 recession....


----------



## redsquirrel (May 23, 2016)

gosub said:


> I'm not  seeing overt racism. Extremely ill advised certainly and I don't get the NHS bit at all, but strip that out, and you could run the same ad in a Turkey were it to  start considering it position within NATO.


Of course it's not going to be overtly racist (it's an offical advert) but the racism is pretty clear - look at all these Turks (Muslims) so anti-social they even fight in parliament. It's nasty and Vote Leave can fuck off and die.

That said to pretend that the same doesn't apply to the Remain side is a fiction - after all, many of the same people who are calling this racist are at the same time both insisting Turkey will not (and should not) become part of the EU and giving it cartloads of money to make sure refugees are swept under the carpet.


----------



## gosub (May 24, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course it's not going to be overtly racist (it's an offical advert) but the racism is pretty clear - look at all these Turks (Muslims) so anti-social they even fight in parliament. It's nasty and Vote Leave can fuck off and die.
> 
> That said to pretend that the same doesn't apply to the Remain side is a fiction - after all, many of the same people who are calling this racist are at the same time both insisting Turkey will not (and should not) become part of the EU and giving it cartloads of money to make sure refugees are swept under the carpet.



High order scum. It was multi frequency dog whistle politics of the very worst kind, and those responsible  should be brought to book:

I have come to the conclusion that the establishment put the fix in with the selection of vote Leave, but even with that scope it was utterly reckless.

The fix was to be seen to have played a game the cartoon stereotypical leaver will have regarded as given their best, (though being utterly repellent to everyone else), so that they slink back to the Tories after they’ve lost with their tails between their legs.  The missteps are more noticeable if you aren’t one of the cartoon stereotypes, though they do seem to follow IN missteps in short order but dwarf them in magnitude.  OUT is doomed by it and the way this mob have control of the OUT narrative.

But it’s the other frequencies that are more interesting (to me). It was a complete overstep of the mark.  You could look at the part of the clip with Cameron in Select Committee as a Westminster briefing on a demarcation point of the wheeze, after all we have other relationships with Turkey and it is a significant player (not without its faults) in a geopolitically sensitive area . (But I suppose that would be considered part of the point on either side)  By including it, I think, was an internal Tory message this is hardball now….

Though to do so just before the Austrian election..I think we are back in the land of cock up.  Had Hofer been elected (thank fuck he wasn’t)  any deal over Turkey and the EU evaporates, but more than that NATO’s 2nd largest member starts considering its position.  Consequences well above who ever did that video’s paygrade.


The lot of the refugee’s is not an easy one, and in its scale almost weaponised. And I personally think more could and should be done to help not only them but the states that are currently having to shoulder the burden.  But in terms of realpolitik Cameron saying Turkey will not become part of the EU is probably true.  Germany is more sympathetic than they have been in the past, which is changing the dynamic but that is probably a poison pill for her domestically, and it would require EU unanimity anyway.  I’d call it a mess, but its not, it’s a human tragedy.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 24, 2016)

gosub said:
			
		

> The fix was to be seen to have played a game the cartoon stereotypical leaver will have regarded as given their best, (though being utterly repellent to everyone else), so that they slink back to the Tories after they’ve lost with their tails between their legs.



This bit's particularly interesting to me, because I've been speculating whether or not there's a natural ceiling/limit of interest among the electorate generally concerning immigration. In other words are those repelled by campaigners 'banging on' about immigration outnumbering those to whom it's important?

I'd hope to say there's a significantly greater proportion of those repelled/alienated, but in reality I simply don't know the answer to that question.


----------



## gosub (May 24, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> This bit's particularly interesting to me, because I've been speculating whether or not there's a natural ceiling/limit of interest among the electorate generally concerning immigration. In other words are those repelled by campaigners 'banging on' about immigration outnumbering those to whom it's important?
> 
> I'd hope to say there's a significantly greater proportion of those repelled/alienated, but in reality I simply don't know the answer to that question.



No I wouldn't go that far. Bolt on those for whom immigration isn't a driving issue, rather things like having a viable economy for example. 

Its probably too harsh on Cummings & Elliot (vote Leave), to lay the entire blame at their door....The rise of UKIP that chose to ride on an immigration tip never actually developed an exit strategy that it could have kept one eye on as it stirred things up.  I can see an the establishment/Electoral commission thinking at time of giving designation "you've stirred it up and  harnessed a lot of disaffection..but you've no credible plans for resolution, thanks for that. 

Not that Remain has the first clue as to what to do about the the issue.

But this referendum could, at most,have led to the removal on the child proof lock on the issue.


----------



## spliff (May 24, 2016)

Got this email about an hour ago if anyone's interested:


> *JACK DEE'S REFERENDUM HELPDESK*
> Be part of *Jack Dee’s Referendum HelpDesk*, the show where you, the audience, can offer a snapshot of everyday concerns as we approach polling day.
> We are looking for audience members who want to ask Jack a question. However, you’re just as welcome if you’d like to come along and simply enjoy the show!
> 
> ...


----------



## gosub (May 24, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> This bit's particularly interesting to me, because I've been speculating whether or not there's a natural ceiling/limit of interest among the electorate generally concerning immigration. In other words are those repelled by campaigners 'banging on' about immigration outnumbering those to whom it's important?
> 
> 
> I'd hope to say there's a significantly greater proportion of those repelled/alienated, but in reality I simply don't know the answer to that question.




I’m not my last post fully elaborated.


It’s not cause / effect between economy and immigration, they are intertwined and both have knock on into provision of housing/ healthcare education social cohesion…you name it.  So there is an ‘issue’, but  those for whom would abandon out of incredulity those who would consider it  the primary concern would equally abandon (though probably less so) those whom dismiss the issue as racism or xenophobia.   Neither side that looks at thing primarily through those prism can prevail without the support of those for who it is a secondary issue…


And yet the mainstream OUT campaign, when not being vague, when pressed, says it wants an outside Single Market model. Why? Because it must consider that trumps ALL other considerations. That such an option is from where we currently stand is impossible, not just extremely difficult without the 2 year window Article 50 provides, but mathematically impossible in terms of parliamentary arithmetic, yet still they persist.  The economics of that type of OUT the most choppy of waters but they have doubled down on it because it is the only one that theoretically tackles immigration.  They do that safe in the knowledge that they would never have to deliver, and that in doing so marginalise and alienate those for whom it THAT not the issue..

Why? Well for some its what’s in there heart; others gut move, a chance to retrench support with the great unwashed; others jockeying around prospective next leaders…and yet the one thing you can be sure of is they all know parliamentary arithmetic and they would be screwed if they actually had to deliver, but even then there is little scope now for going ‘off-message’ 


We are poorly served, this was the one widow of opportunity for an orderly exit ahead of any break down of Europe, though it would have made that a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If Europe does survive the storms,  our next window  - the ‘opportunity’ to be Europe’s Puerto Rico once the house has had the chance to rig the deck.  And yet to put to sea in the life boats – we don’t even have a single Captain, potential or otherwise who could open a child proof lock.


----------



## J Ed (May 24, 2016)

god


----------



## killer b (May 24, 2016)

I don't dare watch.


----------



## J Ed (May 24, 2016)

I don't know about voting to stay in the EU, that video is probably going to convince people to swear fealty to ISIS


----------



## gosub (May 24, 2016)

J Ed said:


> god


----------



## two sheds (May 24, 2016)

gosub said:


>




A fine track.


----------



## William of Walworth (May 24, 2016)

Cheers for those thoughtful posts gosub


----------



## gosub (May 24, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Cheers for those thoughtful posts gosub


It's an odd stitch up to try and get past a bunch who got worked up about democracy, sovereignty and grasped the economic consequences of the EUro.  



 On 23/6  our 650 elected representatives are our equals,  but after that... The one question they aren't being  asked,  that they are most expert on is 'which of the Brexits stands a chance of going through Parliament?'


----------



## teqniq (May 25, 2016)

I found this interesting, I have been wavering between leave and abstain recently, the latter because in all conscience I feel that I cannot give support directly or indirectly to a bunch of racist xenophobic scum, and what they are likely to do here which they will see a leave vote as giving them carte blanche doesn't bear thinking about.

The selective blindness of "lefties" who support Brexit


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I found this interesting, I have been wavering between leave and abstain recently, the latter because in all conscience I feel that I cannot give support directly or indirectly to a bunch of racist xenophobic scum, and what they are likely to do here which they will see a leave vote as giving them carte blanche doesn't bear thinking about.
> 
> The selective blindness of "lefties" who support Brexit



Just the fucking title of that article makes me want to vote out. Just. Fuck. Off.


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2016)

Anyone using the word 'lefty' is automatically excluded from being taken seriously.


----------



## ffsear (May 25, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Unashamedly racist campaigning from the Vote Leave isolationists. Racist scumsuckers that they are.





Sorry,  struggling to see the racism here?   Can you explain?


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> Anyone using the word 'lefty' is automatically excluded from being taken seriously.



Yeah but you only think that because you are a lefty.

It strikes me as odd that some seem to believe that we might make progress through a massive victory for the right and it's irrational responses to people's problems. It's the crudest of strategies.


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2016)

Remain is a massive victory for the right, too. Whichever way you look there's victories for the right.


----------



## weltweit (May 25, 2016)

EU immigration is neutral in this referendum, assuming leave would like access to the single market, because a cornerstone of access to the single market is the free movement of people goods and services, in or out.


----------



## gosub (May 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> EU immigration is neutral in this referendum, assuming leave would like access to the single market, because a cornerstone of access to the single market is the free movement of people goods and services, in or out.




That IS THE REALITY, it is not however what is being sold, unfortunately:  
This happens : First-time buyers would benefit from Brexit, says Moody's

and Turkey goes on the grid for 3 days....


----------



## kabbes (May 25, 2016)

Some of the Leavers want to leave the single market too.


----------



## gosub (May 25, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Some of the Leavers want to leave the single market too.


I'm sure some do.


----------



## newbie (May 25, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I found this interesting, I have been wavering between leave and abstain recently, the latter because in all conscience I feel that I cannot give support directly or indirectly to a bunch of racist xenophobic scum, and what they are likely to do here which they will see a leave vote as giving them carte blanche doesn't bear thinking about.
> 
> The selective blindness of "lefties" who support Brexit



He's too wide-eyed pro-remain for my taste (eg I don't subscribe to "_The EU is a progressive project; it is our project._") but that aside he makes points that need making.   



> I questioned a supporter of Lexit as to what the objective was. His reply was: "1. Leave neoliberal institution of EU. 2. Elect democratic socialist Govt. £. Inspire others 4 Form community of like-minded".
> 
> My immediate observation, looking at that list is that _*it is the wrong way around*_.
> 
> Surely, in a democracy, one must start from forming a community of like-minded individuals, which then inspires others, builds momentum, elects a a socialist government, which then takes on the EU's current warped manifestation. So why the strange reversal of aims? I venture to say it is because the left in the UK has failed miserably at 2, £ and 4 in the last two elections - and, arguably, much longer than that.






> This is where the UK is so different to Greece. Greece's politics are, on average, to the left of the EU aggregate. This is why, as a Greek, I did support a controlled exit from the single currency. It was clear to me that Greece wanted to go in a socialist direction. Its departure would have a much smaller effect on the cohesion of the total. In effect, Greece had achieved "2, £ and 4".
> 
> The exact opposite is true of the UK. Its politics are, on average, to the right of the EU. The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy.







> With circumstances as they are, nationally and globally, actively opting for a choice which destabilises Europe and strengthens the far right is nothing short of destructive. Doing so in exchange for the vague promise of magical socialism, when in fact the campaign is being spearheaded by the right wing of the right wing, seems to me downright daft.
> 
> Read more at:The selective blindness of "lefties" who support Brexit


----------



## kabbes (May 25, 2016)

Yeah, the points are well worth noting.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2016)

> vague promise of magical socialism



liberal condescension endears me not.


----------



## Teaboy (May 25, 2016)

Would a leave vote strengthen the far right necessarily? It could be argued that the rise of the far right across Europe is in part a consequence of the failure of the EU.  In short is the EU is the reason the far right are on the march in quite a few EU countries?


----------



## teqniq (May 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> Remain is a massive victory for the right, too. Whichever way you look there's victories for the right.


This is why I've said before if feels like we're damned if we do, damned if we don't.


----------



## Greebozz (May 25, 2016)

I can't believe staying in the EU is being talked about so glibly.  Britain with fascinating history stretching thousands of years into the past is going to continue the process of having its identity and self determination erased.  It won't be Britain any more it will just be land, a small portfolio in a giant European bureaucracy.  To me it's like a sort of cultural revolution similar to what happened in China when everything representing the past was destroyed.

The point I'm making is that once sovereignty is gone it's gone, it's permanent, there is no way back.  Many have this inbuilt self hatred towards Britain but that could change a lot of good has come from this country, in terms of science, literature, thinking  politics.

What's worse is that it's the young people who are most in favour of staying in Europe, those with the least experience in the most easily influenced.  David Cameron is acting like the Cameo Rouge in the film the killing fields in which the children are encouraged to betray their parents. 

In my opinion the best outcome will be to vote out of Europe.  This will create a great fuss but it will mean we will have full control of our destiny as a country.  It is also my opinion that virtually nothing will change in terms of immigration no one from the EU that is been here a few years is going to be thrown out though it may create some barriers to numbers coming in which will give local services a chance to cope with the existing influx.

The only thing will lose is our famous voice of the table, our 1 in 28 minority vote.  It's such a bad deal to give up democracy and the ability to move quickly politically and keep this country's identity for virtually nothing.

People will talk about economic downturns, but millions died for this country in previous wars, what exact sacrifice are we talking about here, having to buy one less computer game.  But what about the benefits of less pressure on infrastructure and not having to move away from friends and family because rents are going through the roof due to demand.

Before anyone has a go, these are my opinions you have to agree with my opinions but could I suggest you put your reasons for staying if you believe that point of view rather than your reply being "racist cunt".  Anyone that makes dumb rude comments I put on ignore straightaway.  The future of the country is more important than scoring clever points and feeling superior, that you have insulted some strawman you have created in your imagination.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Some shit.



Fuck off.

Like you promised. Twice, or was it three times?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> the Cameo Rouge


the khmer rouge had more than a cameo part in the killing fields.


----------



## kabbes (May 25, 2016)

Racist cunt.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

Has this been posted up already? Paul Embery (FBU) really spot on here I thought...
Why on earth would socialists support the neoliberal, undemocratic EU?


----------



## Teaboy (May 25, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I can't believe staying in the EU is being talked about so glibly.  Britain with fascinating history stretching thousands of years into the past is going to continue the process of having its identity and self determination erased.  It won't be Britain any more it will just be land, a small portfolio in a giant European bureaucracy.  To me it's like a sort of cultural revolution similar to what happened in China when everything representing the past was destroyed.
> 
> snip.



I can't be bothered with the rest because I can't make it past the first paragraph.  Britain does not have a history stretching back thousands of years and if you think everything representing the past was destroyed in the Chinese cultural revolution then you are very badly mistaken, terribly so.


----------



## Teaboy (May 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the khmer rouge had more than a cameo part in the killing fields.


----------



## Greebozz (May 25, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I can't be bothered with the rest because I can't make it past the first paragraph.  Britain does not have a history stretching back thousands of years and if you think everything representing the past was destroyed in the Chinese cultural revolution then you are very badly mistaken, terribly so.


Forgive me but I think the way that you are putting your points is a rather poor show.  The only way to avoid a comment like yours would be to write something similar to the terms and conditions of a credit agreement.  I would have to subsection every point I made to close off every loophole as it were.

Because of this many people don't use this method of comment because it kills a discussion.


----------



## The Pale King (May 25, 2016)

newbie said:


> He's too wide-eyed pro-remain for my taste (eg I don't subscribe to "_The EU is a progressive project; it is our project._") but that aside he makes points that need making.



"The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy."

...Is the above really true? I am not dismissing it out of hand but would like some examples. Seems hard to reconcile with a lot else about the E.U, not least its treatment of Greece.


----------



## Greebozz (May 25, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> "The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy."
> 
> ...Is the above really true? I am not dismissing it out of hand but would like some examples. Seems hard to reconcile with a lot else about the E.U, not least its treatment of Greece.



It's a fair point you make about the EU being a break on largely Tory policies but what bothers me is my uncertainty about what can happen to Europe this is a recent thing from the BBC about the rise of the right wing in Europe.  It is my opinion that circumstances in Europe can cause more upheaval, extreme right-wing parties and the opposite equivalent, basically nasty people on both sides.notice that the AustriaFreedom party narrowly lost an electionwith a higher percentage than shown here.




Is Europe lurching to the far right? - BBC News


----------



## hot air baboon (May 25, 2016)

....well broadly with the emphasis on "historic" - back in the 1980's Thatcherite ascendancy , with Labour were deemed unelectable they sort of abandoned euro-scepticism ( apart from Benn ofcourse & a few mavericks ) & embraced the then Commisiion President Jacques Delors - who was regarded as a dangerously interventionist socialist forcing all sorts of euro-regulations on the country in the teeth of opposition from the Thatcher hand-bag & The Sun :


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

You worrying about the rise of the far right, Greebozz? For real?!

Now fuck off like you said you would.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 25, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> Forgive me but I think the way that you are putting your points is a rather poor show.  The only way to avoid a comment like yours would be to write something similar to the terms and conditions of a credit agreement.  I would have to subsection every point I made to close off every loophole as it were.
> 
> Because of this many people don't use this method of comment because it kills a discussion.


or put them on ignore, are you still here ?


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> extreme right-wing parties and the opposite equivalent, basically nasty people on both sides



I'll just leave that there.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> Remain is a massive victory for the right, too. Whichever way you look there's victories for the right.



There is plenty of ordinary work of the EU, social protection, environmental and scientific research to be applauded. There is nothing on the leave side.

If leave win the signal goes out that only what nationalists can grab for themselves is of any accord. It's bonfire of progressive gains.

Even on the left there is a massive ignorance of the dull work of the EU and it's massive lack of threat to sovereignty. The resource issues of globalisation won't be solved in this way. It's a neutron bomb that leaves the rich houses standing.

You must hope things get shit enough for it to kick off if you vote 'leave'. It's an indulgence and decadence to do so. It's an ignoring of the fact that never in recent history have socialist ideas been so unpopular with ordinary people. King Canute comes to mind for socialists voting out.


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2016)

I don't know who you're arguing against there, but it's nothing to do with what I posted or think.


----------



## Greebozz (May 25, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> There is plenty of ordinary work of the EU, social protection, environmental and scientific research to be applauded. There is nothing on the leave side.
> 
> If leave win the signal goes out that only what nationalists can grab for themselves is of any accord. It's bonfire of progressive gains.
> 
> ...


 What do you think of Tony Benn's thoughts here about Europe.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> What do you think of Tony Benn's thoughts here about Europe.




I don't give a shit and I'm not listening. 

Much as I liked him I don't care if we cede sovereignty over the distribution of frozen sheep carcasses or whatever. The stuff that matters, education, health, defence and yes immigration is down to us to solve still.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Much as I liked him I don't care if we cede sovereignty over the distribution of frozen sheep carcasses or whatever. The stuff that matters, education, health, defence and yes immigration is down to us to solve still.



All those things that EU neoliberalism is opening up to marketisation and withering away any democratic or public/social ownership and control?


Mr Moose said:


> It's an ignoring of the fact that never in recent history have socialist ideas been so unpopular with ordinary people.



And neoliberalism is really working out well for ordinary people?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2016)

sanders and corbyn, mild social democrats though they may be have seen significant support. So perhaps you are wrong mr moose. Litmus for iron corbze was the recent elections and it all went gravy.


----------



## Fisher05 (May 25, 2016)

In my opinion if UK won't exit EU now then it holds greater risk of losing it's identity once in 5-10 years middle east asian migrants become dominant force in selecting next govt. It will slowly move towards a semi to fully shariah compliant nation. It might take some 10 years time to show the symptoms to some people. 

So the thing is we should be more careful about this EU migrant/refugee issue hidden reports over what it is really about... 

I don't think Brexit will hurt scotland, ireland etc. issues. Nor it will impact UK's business as has been made to believe. It will infact become more stable over long term, lesser job problems then EU over the period of time, more peace... 

Nor do UK will face defence issues as it is part of NATO which will remain as it is.


----------



## teqniq (May 25, 2016)

What.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion if UK won't exit EU now then it holds greater risk of losing it's identity once in 5-10 years middle east asian migrants become dominant force in selecting next govt. It will slowly move towards a semi to fully shariah compliant nation. It might take some 10 years time to show the symptoms to some people.



Oh FFS. Fuck off.


----------



## teqniq (May 25, 2016)

More spirited than mine, but basically. Yeah.


----------



## Greebozz (May 25, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> I don't give a shit and I'm not listening.
> 
> Much as I liked him I don't care if we cede sovereignty over the distribution of frozen sheep carcasses or whatever. The stuff that matters, education, health, defence and yes immigration is down to us to solve still.


I see you are someone who appreciates the nuances of political analysis.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I see you are someone appreciates the nuances of political analysis.



And you can do one too.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

For the hard of hearing, liberals, or assorted racists, the only valid leave is one on pro-worker, pro-socialist, anti-neoliberal grounds. All other leaves, especially the right-wing and immigrant bashing ones, can just fuck the fuck off.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> All those things that EU neoliberalism is opening up to marketisation and withering away any democratic or public/social ownership and control?
> 
> 
> And neoliberalism is really working out well for ordinary people?



A choice between neoliberalism and not is hardly on offer here.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> For the hard of hearing, liberals, or assorted racists, the only valid leave is one on pro-worker, pro-socialist, anti-neoliberal grounds. All other leaves, especially the right-wing and immigrant bashing ones, can just fuck the fuck off.



Which is why you need to suck it up and vote to remain.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Which is why you need to suck it up and vote to remain.



Remain isn't pro-worker, pro-socialist or anti-neoliberal either. So why would it be any better to 'suck it up' and remain than leave on those grounds?


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

Remain's realistically the most likely to win anyway as it has the overwhelming backing of national and international capital, it'll be how narrow/wide the margin is I think.

The way I see it right now, is that a slim remain will cause problems for the ongoing Tory civil war (and they're on a slim majority), but a leave will not only cause problems for the Tories (again, they're a bit all over the shop right now) but that it could seriously undermine the aggressive neoliberalism of the EU too.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> sanders and corbyn, mild social democrats though they may be have seen significant support. So perhaps you are wrong mr moose. Litmus for iron corbze was the recent elections and it all went gravy.



I wish I was. This vote looks massively split on class and race though and a big proportion of the electorate is giving a two fingered salute to all things left and progressive.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

(again, this is a lot of supposition from me, I don't really know what will happen for sure in a leave, but its pretty clear what will happen in a remain).


----------



## Skyfallsz (May 25, 2016)

It's a double edged sword


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Remain isn't pro-worker, pro-socialist or anti-neoliberal either. So why would it be any better to 'suck it up' and remain than leave on those grounds?


 
Because it's better than leaving on a nationalist agenda. And like I say there is plenty of EU work that is good, good governance. The fact you can travel and work in 28 countries and the same standards for beaches or carbon monoxide safety apply. Because, whatever it's faults it's not irrational. Because we are more likely to prosper.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2016)

its the we thats a problem here


----------



## editor (May 25, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion if UK won't exit EU now then it holds greater risk of losing it's identity once in 5-10 years middle east asian migrants become dominant force in selecting next govt. It will slowly move towards a semi to fully shariah compliant nation. It might take some 10 years time to show the symptoms to some people.


In my opinion you're a racist douchebag. Howzabout that then?!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Because it's better than leaving on a nationalist agenda. And like I say there is plenty of EU work that is good, good governance. The fact you can travel and work in 28 countries and the same standards for beaches or carbon monoxide safety apply. Because, whatever it's faults it's not irrational. Because we are more likely to prosper.



I've got two questions. What is the likely long term direction of the EU agenda? Under which scenario do you think we have more power to challenge that agenda - inside of the EU or out?


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> It's a double edged sword



Tru dat. Life's just, well flawed frankly.


----------



## Santino (May 25, 2016)

Why do so many people seem to think that the outcome of a referendum determines how the country as a whole will be governed in the next 10-20 years?


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I've got two questions. What is the likely long term direction of the EU agenda? Under which scenario do you think we have more power to challenge that agenda - inside of the EU or out?



See, this is my stumbling block to the 'we are more likely to prosper'. In what way?! The EU will continue to desire and impose onto members states the further opening up of services and industries to the European market, workers rights are already becoming second best to the primary economic objectives of the EU project, austerity will be forced onto members where they don't show fiscal restraint, and there's seemingly fuck all most of us can do about it. Whilst we can do something about our national government and its policies when standing outside of the EU.


----------



## gosub (May 25, 2016)

Definitely starting to since in at the Telegraph :Brexit will make us richer. That's why Leave could still win

Dacre though, wouldn't be able to write "Betrayal!" in a typeface big enough.....


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2016)

Santino said:


> Why do so many people seem to think that the outcome of a referendum determines how the country as a whole will be governed in the next 10-20 years?



Because inside of the EU the balance of power between labour and capital is skewed much more in favour of capital. Outside the EU we have _slightly_ more power to challenge the encroachment of capital into areas such as the NHS.


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Because inside of the EU the balance of power between labour and capital is skewed much more in favour of capital. Outside the EU we have _slightly_ more power to challenge the encroachment of capital into areas such as the NHS.


Interesting.
What basis is there for such faith?


----------



## weltweit (May 25, 2016)

Britain is already in the second EU tier, outside Schengen and the Euro, but remaining in we have a chance to influence the EU project, out and we have none.

I actually thought the video of Tony Benn was interesting, a vote to remain now does not have to be the end of it. If in 20 or 30 years there is the will for it Britain could have another referendum. And I believe Cameron's negotiation included that we have a referendum whenever the EU wants to take new powers in a treaty. So voting in is not for ever but voting out would be.

I am not yet ready to say goodbye to the EU project.


----------



## ffsear (May 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Oh FFS. Fuck off.



wehhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

ffsear said:


> wehhhhhhhhhyyyyyyyyyy



Defending a racist are we? Good look.


----------



## Santino (May 25, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Because inside of the EU the balance of power between labour and capital is skewed much more in favour of capital. Outside the EU we have _slightly_ more power to challenge the encroachment of capital into areas such as the NHS.


Sorry, that's not what I meant. I meant, why do people think that a vote for Leave means that the racists of the Leave campaign get to run the country and push through anti-worker legislation for the next decade?


----------



## pocketscience (May 25, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Britain is already in the second EU tier, outside Schengen and the Euro, but remaining in we have a chance to influence the EU project, out and we have none.



There's more chance the Eu will play vindictive silly buggers in the event of a remain vote and strip the UK of even more power in the project. Vote out and the UK holds proportionally way more chips at the bargaining table = more chance to exert influence in the Brexited relationship.
I wouldn't underestimate the _influence_ an out vote can have.


----------



## ffsear (May 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Defending a racist are we? Good look.



nope, i managed to ignore him.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

ffsear said:


> nope, i managed to ignore him.



Oh that's funny, because in your rush to take a pot shot at me, you've basically made it look like that's more important than calling out the racist poster


----------



## ffsear (May 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Oh that's funny, because in your rush to take a pot shot at me, you've basically made it look like that's more important than calling out the racist poster


its a troll   ffs  , just ignore it  potty mouth


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

ffsear said:


> its a troll   ffs  , just ignore it  potty mouth



And I should listen to you why?


----------



## Greebozz (May 25, 2016)

I am very confused within myself about the in and out debate, because to me remaining in Europe is a kindness and a sacrifice worthy of Jesus, Buddha or Allah.

It's a sharing out of what this country has to offer to those that have less and is also a sacrifice in turns of quality of life and in physical safety.

It's the complete reverse of the idea of a country being self-interested, on the one hand it scares me on the other hand it blows my mind.  I see many practical negatives to staying into the EU but they are only negatives for the people in this country.  People migrate and choose to work in Britain from places which are sometimes far poorer and less enlightened.

The sacrifice for the existing population, is increased rent in house prices, longer waits for hospital treatment, larger school sizes, resources being diverted for non-English-speaking pupils.  Siblings being split up due to scarcity of school places, more competition when jobhunting.

There is also a sacrifice of accepting in showing care to the small percentage that wish to kill us.  And the money spent on de-radicalisation programmes.  There is the pain of areas and neighbourhoods that become no-go that once belonged to everyone.

But this sacrifice is the true heart of spiritual practice.  We should allow ourselves to become poorer to help the many who have less.  This includes the migrants desperate to get out of the Third World and the poverty they are trapped in, their lives are no less valuable than ours.

My mean outdated model is to be pragmatic and protect what we have and protect people we care about.  I'm not too crazy about forced quotas of young Arab men coming to this country who have a very backward attitude towards the way they treat women and who might struggle to blend in.  But how are they going to learn a more enlightened attitude than being in the West and seeing a better example of equality.  So that's a sacrifice of safety of people we care about presumably be all have sisters mothers etc.

If we vote to stay in the UK to my mind it will be a wonderful kindness, a very scary kindness of mind blowing charity.  Risky but with a true heart of goodness and if we vote to stay in Europe, this is how I will take it.  The problem is one part of me is rooted in, survival of the fittest, being strong protecting against danger being pragmatic.  But I will go with optimism if it triumphs.

Disclaimer I'm not putting this on anyone else, this is my own personal opinion and how I feel.


----------



## newbie (May 25, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> "The EU has historically worked as a brake on UK governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction. This cannot be ignored or supplanted by a fantasy."
> 
> ...Is the above really true? I am not dismissing it out of hand but would like some examples. Seems hard to reconcile with a lot else about the E.U, not least its treatment of Greece.


It's his claim not mine. I don't know how you'd establish a cast iron case, but the government has lost at the ECJ on plenty of occasions, they lose some 3/4 of their cases- this sort of thing:


> The Government will be forced to urgently clean up illegal air pollution in British cities, after a ruling at the European Court of Justice.
> 
> Following the case, brought by environmental group Client Earth, individuals will now be able sue the Government for breaching EU pollution laws, while ministers will be forced to prepare and implement plans to improve air quality “as soon as possible”.
> 
> In a slap-down for the Government, the court overwhelmingly dismissed a long-stated policy of seeking to comply with EU air pollution laws by simply appealing to Europe for more time.



or this


> The UK’s challenge to the introduction of a European financial transactions tax has been rejected after European Union lawmakers said it is too soon to rule the tax out.
> 
> The challenge was based on the argument that the 11 countries backing the tax should not be allowed to use a special European Union coordination procedure known as ‘enhanced cooperation’ to get it off the ground.



and some matters don't need to go to the ECJ


> Emergency surveillance legislation introduced by the coalition government last year is unlawful, the high court has ruled. A judicial challenge by the Labour MP Tom Watson and the Conservative MP David Davis has been upheld by judges, who found that the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act (Dripa) 2014 is “inconsistent with European Union law”. The act requires internet and phone companies to keep their communications data for a year and regulates how police and intelligence agencies gain access to it.


----------



## ffsear (May 25, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And I should listen to you why?



because, for once, i'm on your side.


----------



## stethoscope (May 25, 2016)

ffsear said:


> because, for once, i'm on your side.



Once isn't good enough


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> its the we thats a problem here



True, but being in the EU isn't going to make it even worse for anyone in the UK whereas leaving might.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 25, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion


Great opening gambit, but your opinion isn't worth diddly squat.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2016)

Can the middle class left ***k off right now please?


----------



## Mr Moose (May 25, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Because inside of the EU the balance of power between labour and capital is skewed much more in favour of capital. Outside the EU we have _slightly_ more power to challenge the encroachment of capital into areas such as the NHS.



I don't think you quite get the powers of the EU in this respect. The EU does not allow state monopolies, but it does not disallow state provision either.


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2016)

newbie said:


> and some matters don't need to go to the ECJ



Er... The court referred the Davies-Watson case to the CJEU (ECJ). Chose to refer it...


----------



## DJWrongspeed (May 26, 2016)

Saw a bit of Newsnight last night interviewing voters out in the country. Still a fair few undecided ?
What more do they need to know ????   No one knows what will happen if we exit so it's a gamble.


----------



## newbie (May 26, 2016)

laptop said:


> Er... The court referred the Davies-Watson case to the CJEU (ECJ). Chose to refer it...


fair enough.  

tbh it would take far too long to plough through all the court judgements to find evidence of one or other part of the British state being told they can't pursue a nasty, profit driven, right wing agenda (and longer still to get the procedural detail correct  ). That's only part of the picture, there's also trying to interpret all the incidents of British officials or politicians arguing against a majority with less rightwing or neo-liberal views during negotiations and meetings.	

My impression, simply from having lived through the last decade or two and read the news, is that I've seldom supported the UK government position and often thought that the continental types have a better clue.  

Perhaps the original question could be turned round.  Is there any evidence of the UK acting as a brake on other EU governments wanting to spin in a rightward direction?  Or evidence of the UK pushing for greater worker, health, consumer or environmental protections being thwarted by the rest wanting greater business friendly 'freedom' or 'deregulation'?


----------



## newbie (May 26, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Saw a bit of Newsnight last night interviewing voters out in the country. Still a fair few undecided ?
> What more do they need to know ????   No one knows what will happen if we exit so it's a gamble.



I'm still undecided between the equally unpalatable options of the devil I know or voting for christmas.   tbh I (still) want to be inspired by the 'left' case for exit- or even to find out if there really is one, rather than just lists of examples of what we already know is wrong about the EU and some vague jam tomorrow idealism.


----------



## Fisher05 (May 26, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I am very confused within myself about the in and out debate, because to me remaining in Europe is a kindness and a sacrifice worthy of Jesus, Buddha or Allah.
> 
> It's a sharing out of what this country has to offer to those that have less and is also a sacrifice in turns of quality of life and in physical safety.
> 
> ...



The point is what information is at the disposal of general masses that can affect their decision on this topic. Currently when I see reports what these mix of migrants and refugees are doing in european countries with locals make me feel bad. The crime rate has rapidly gone up it includes good no. of sexual assaults on females etc. They don't assimilate into local culture, ethics, values etc. they just love impose their own system on whole local system. EU country security services are struggling to cope up with rapid influx of so called refugees(some are while some are migrants with purpose..). The import of cargo is also giving easy invite to ISIS jehadis. So potential of instability in these countries is pretty high.


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> The point is what information is at the disposal of general masses that can affect their decision on this topic. Currently when I see reports what these mix of migrants and refugees are doing in european countries with locals make me feel bad. The crime rate has rapidly gone up it includes good no. of sexual assaults on females etc. They don't assimilate into local culture, ethics, values etc. they just love impose their own system on whole local system. EU country security services are struggling to cope up with rapid influx of so called refugees(some are while some are migrants with purpose..). The import of cargo is also giving easy invite to ISIS jehadis. So potential of instability in these countries is pretty high.


cunt off


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2016)

newbie said:


> I'm still undecided between the equally unpalatable options of the devil I know or voting for christmas.   tbh I (still) want to be inspired by the 'left' case for exit- or even to find out if there really is one, rather than just lists of examples of what we already know is wrong about the EU and some vague jam tomorrow idealism.


I suspect that many of us who appreciate that we're being invited to choose between 2 forms of hollowed-out, post-democratic neoliberalism feel "undecided".


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

Skyfallsz said:


> It's a double edged sword


they always come out when it's a full moon


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> The point is what information is at the disposal of general masses that can affect their decision on this topic. Currently when I see reports what these mix of migrants and refugees are doing in european countries with locals make me feel bad. The crime rate has rapidly gone up it includes good no. of sexual assaults on females etc. They don't assimilate into local culture, ethics, values etc. they just love impose their own system on whole local system. EU country security services are struggling to cope up with rapid influx of so called refugees(some are while some are migrants with purpose..). The import of cargo is also giving easy invite to ISIS jehadis. So potential of instability in these countries is pretty high.


Reported.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> The import of cargo is also giving easy invite to ISIS jehadis.


so your solution is to stop importing anything.


----------



## brogdale (May 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> so your solution is to stop importing anything.


I assumed the meaning was human 'cargo'...isn't that how these types express themselves?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (May 26, 2016)

newbie said:


> I'm still undecided between the equally unpalatable options of the devil I know or voting for christmas.   tbh I (still) want to be inspired by the 'left' case for exit- or even to find out if there really is one, rather than just lists of examples of what we already know is wrong about the EU and some vague jam tomorrow idealism.



In the short term vote leave get's you Bojo or Gove, possibly May as PM, do you want that? The knock on consequences for Europe are scary.
You're right , the left have been quiet or haven't been heard, the Tories on both sides are dominating the debate.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I assumed the meaning was human 'cargo'...isn't that how these types express themselves?


he's a one man cargo cultist


----------



## nino_savatte (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> They don't assimilate into local culture, ethics, values etc. they just love impose their own system on whole local system.


I've been hearing this shite since the 70s, you racist tit. It's a trope and a myth.


----------



## jakethesnake (May 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> he's a one man cargo cultist


A complete cult


----------



## newbie (May 26, 2016)

DJWrongspeed said:


> In the short term vote leave get's you Bojo or Gove, possibly May as PM, do you want that? The knock on consequences for Europe are scary.
> You're right , the left have been quiet or haven't been heard, the Tories on both sides are dominating the debate.


No of course I don't.  Nor do I want Cameron and Osborne. devil/christmas.  Tories are dominating because nationalism, sovereignty, migration and 'freedom' from regulation are their preferred stomping grounds.  The 'left', with its long history of polemic against the EU, is split with even the most strident voices conscious that the TUC and most unions are for staying in, which makes the case that the working class will definitely be better off out a little hard to argue.


----------



## Fisher05 (May 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Oh FFS. Fuck off.





editor said:


> In my opinion you're a racist douchebag. Howzabout that then?!


In my opinion you both belong to same bracket F bas*ards. First learn to do debate without using abuse as it's a resort often taken by losers and low life guys.


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion you both belong to same bracket F bas*ards. First learn to do debate without using abuse as it's a resort often taken by losers and low life guys.


Learn to swear properly, you fucking bastard cunt.


----------



## nino_savatte (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion you both belong to same bracket F bas*ards. First learn to do debate without using abuse as it's a resort often taken by losers and low life guys.


Way to assume the moral high ground. Your time on these boards has just shortened.


----------



## Fisher05 (May 26, 2016)

In no way am being racist etc. with anyone. I see all humans first. Then comes working out whose behavior is civil and else wise. To keep eyes open for the safety of civil society. So in the current topic I said that because we need to look at how EU countries who have allowed good no. of migrants that includes people from Pakistan as well are facing various problems. If it was just some economic issues then it was OK. But crimes of the nature that is going on is not acceptable at least to me. If majority is OK with it then great as it's a democracy and I fully support w/o any influence democratic decisions.


----------



## J Ed (May 26, 2016)

Another good example here of a person bringing up civility as a shield but with no intention of actually conforming to the standards of civility they are asking others to adhere to


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> I see all humans first.


then who do you see?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion you both belong to same bracket F bas*ards. First learn to do debate without using abuse as it's a resort often taken by losers and low life guys.


which are you, a loser or a low life guy?


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In no way am being racist etc. with anyone. I see all humans first. Then comes working out whose behavior is civil and else wise. To keep eyes open for the safety of civil society. So in the current topic I said that because we need to look at how EU countries who have allowed good no. of migrants that includes people from Pakistan as well are facing various problems. If it was just some economic issues then it was OK. But crimes of the nature that is going on is not acceptable at least to me. If majority is OK with it then great as it's a democracy and I fully support w/o any influence democratic decisions.


For a racist your command of English is very poor.


----------



## Fisher05 (May 26, 2016)

Santino said:


> Learn to swear properly, you fucking bastard cunt.


Seems you feel that for yourself that's why you believe that for others...


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2016)

See?


----------



## Fisher05 (May 26, 2016)

Command of English doesn't matter much. But intent does always. And my intent for genuine refugees is clear that they should be supported but not anyone using disguise of that to make his bad intentions succeed... That's it. Main point of my post is their should not be any blind inward permissions for all but careful one. It will itself resolve the whole matter as per the expectation of all civil society members.


----------



## J Ed (May 26, 2016)

Santino said:


> See?



I wouldn't say poor, but he doesn't exactly write like a native speaker of English. Hmmm...


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2016)

He's trying to tell us something, I just know it.


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2016)

Their should not be any blind inward permissions for all but careful one! That's what I've been saying for years.


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2016)

I've been saying all along that genuine refugees should be supported but not anyone using disguise of that to make his bad intentions succeed. It's pretty basic stuff.


----------



## J Ed (May 26, 2016)

Is he a Putinbot?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

Santino said:


> He's trying to tell us something, I just know it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Is he a Putinbot?


it's a shitbot


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> Seems you feel that for yourself that's why you believe that for others...


in this case it's definitely not me it's you


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion you both belong to same bracket F bas*ards. First learn to do debate without using abuse as it's a resort often taken by losers and low life guys.



You are second blow-in in a month to arrive and head straight for for this thread, having completely misjudged the timbre of these boards.   I leave it to the mods as to whether you add anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> You are second blow-in in a month to arrive and head straight for for this thread, having completely misjudged the timbre of these boards.   I leave it to the mods as to whether you add anything.


he'll blow out again, don't you fuss young gosub.


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> he'll blow out again, don't you fuss young gosub.



Well,as fun as a pool of piranhas can be, there is some sensible discussion here that it gets in the way of.  We'll still have Greebozz to tell us what's in the Daily Mail.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> Well,as fun as a pool of piranhas can be, there is some sensible discussion here that it gets in the way of.  We'll still have Greebozz to tell us what's in the Daily Mail.


why not cut out the middleman and occasionally have a glance at that paper yourself?


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> why not cut out the middleman and occasionally have a glance at that paper yourself?



If I'm in the pub and board  bored I'm allowed to do my local's copy crossword.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> If I'm in the pub and board I'm allowed to do my local's copy crossword.


drill not plank (5)


----------



## ffsear (May 26, 2016)

Odds on remain have shortened to 2/9 (1.23) now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> You worrying about the rise of the far right, Greebozz? For real?!
> 
> Now fuck off like you said you would.



What's especially putrid is that there's no analysis whatsoever as to why there might be a rise in right-wing sentiment in some European states.


----------



## Greebozz (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> The point is what information is at the disposal of general masses that can affect their decision on this topic. Currently when I see reports what these mix of migrants and refugees are doing in european countries with locals make me feel bad. The crime rate has rapidly gone up it includes good no. of sexual assaults on females etc. They don't assimilate into local culture, ethics, values etc. they just love impose their own system on whole local system. EU country security services are struggling to cope up with rapid influx of so called refugees(some are while some are migrants with purpose..). The import of cargo is also giving easy invite to ISIS jehadis. So potential of instability in these countries is pretty high.


I do know where you're coming from, everything is so politically correct, it's all about the way you express yourself.  It's the same with me with all the BS in the media it makes one long to express oneself in a non-varnished way, it's the same with me.

What you said is largely true and you have the media covering up information for fear of stirring up racism, and while I can understand I feel that the world gone mad.  In the UK hospitals have gone into the red and accident and emergency department have been overwhelmed but you'll never hear a journalist discussing the reasons why that might be because if he did it be accused of being a racist.

In regards to immigration, the expansion of Muslim culture, British way of life changing forever etc narrative.  For some people it is extremely emotional and painful, myself included.  Others are not bothered by it at all, or think it's a good thing.  It varies enormously if you are a immigrant yourself son or daughter of an immigrant or are from a Muslim community, then one may have a different point of view than someone who's lived all their life here and felt their communities become more alienating places filled with foreign voices and alien religions.

As I mentioned in my other post, you're looking at things the way I did through the eyes of self-interest, self protection, defending, securing but that is not really a loving way to be.  Sure bad people might come into this country that we should do us harm, but how will they learn a better way of being.

Point being on a spiritual level everyone is equally valuable.  People really want to come to Britain because it's a great place, has a great National Health Service.  If the good things Britain have to offer are shared then that is a kindness.

For myself and probably a few others it is extremely painful seeing the way things are going with Europe in terms of sovereignty been diminished and anyone being able to live here from the EU.  But everything changes if the vote is to remain in Europe, maybe good things will come of it, is certainly good karma or good intention to welcome people want to come to Britain, they will have better lives and any impact due to overcrowding and other issues isn't probably going to be that bad.  It may even lead to more direct action and even revolution and lead to a fairer society.

The point is be at peace within yourself.  Whatever the situation is it's not as bad as being conquered by another country a fate that many had to deal with for years.  An example of which being the former Soviet bloc countries.

I'm not saying people here who vote to stay in Europe are doing so out of kindness, they're probably just motivated by liking the attractive men and women coming from Europe and worries about fear messages from the government about the economy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2016)

Fisher05 said:


> In my opinion if UK won't exit EU now then it holds greater risk of losing it's identity once in 5-10 years middle east asian migrants become dominant force in selecting next govt. It will slowly move towards a semi to fully shariah compliant nation. It might take some 10 years time to show the symptoms to some people.
> 
> So the thing is we should be more careful about this EU migrant/refugee issue hidden reports over what it is really about...
> 
> ...



WTF is a "middle east asian migrant" when it's at home, and what does "fully shariah compliant nation" mean?

You *are* aware that religious courts are constitutionally subsidiary to law courts, and that they cannot enforce any decision that isn't in keeping with the law, aren't you?
Are you one of those people who believes that a thousand years of accumulated law, custom and precedent will be set aside because a minority even within the British Muslim community demand it?


----------



## kabbes (May 26, 2016)

Fuck off, racist.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I do know where you're coming from, everything is so politically correct, it's all about the way you express yourself.  It's the same with me with all the BS in the media it makes one long to express oneself in a non-varnished way, it's the same with me.
> 
> What you said is largely true and you have the media covering up information for fear of stirring up racism, and while I can understand I feel that the world gone mad.  In the UK hospitals have gone into the red and a need to palms have been overwhelmed but you'll never hear a journalist discussing the reasons why that might be because if he did it be accused of being a racist.
> 
> ...


no one will ever read this through


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 26, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I am very confused within myself about the in and out debate, because to me remaining in Europe is a kindness and a sacrifice worthy of Jesus, Buddha or Allah.
> 
> It's a sharing out of what this country has to offer to those that have less and is also a sacrifice in turns of quality of life and in physical safety.
> 
> ...



Repeating the same tired bullshit you've already shat out, doesn't make said bullshit any more valid than the previous dozen times it's been thoroughly debunked.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Can the middle class left ***k off right now please?


Fucking hell, and people wonder why UKIP are polling ~15%


----------



## Sprocket. (May 26, 2016)

Though not Nick Robinson's greatest fan, I found this item, presented by him on Today this morning about the dilemmas facing curry restaurants very interesting as far as Brexit supporters are targeting Bangladeshi Referendum voters.

Who will cook your Indian curry? - BBC News


----------



## seventh bullet (May 26, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Is he a Putinbot?



No.


----------



## treelover (May 26, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Fucking hell, and people wonder why UKIP are polling ~15%



Was that from the GE?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

treelover said:


> Was that from the GE?


pollING not pollED


----------



## treelover (May 26, 2016)

I meant the poster!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 26, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> Though not Nick Robinson's greatest fan, I found this item, presented by him on Today this morning about the dilemmas facing curry restaurants very interesting as far as Brexit supporters are targeting Bangladeshi Referendum voters.
> 
> Who will cook your Indian curry? - BBC News



India isn't in the EU.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 26, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> India isn't in the EU.



Have you read the article?

Romanians are being employed and trained as chefs in Indian restaurants because skilled chefs from Bangladesh are prohibited by immigration rules. Therefore restaurant owners are being urged to vote Leave so they can recruit from Bangladesh, allegedly.


----------



## AnandLeo (May 26, 2016)

Britain’s union with EU is not like a marriage, suggesting there is no separation or divorce in sight. It is an unanticipated political union that will continue to evolve for an unforeseeable future in a way that will strain Britain’s relations so often. Britain will continue to disagree and contend to steer in a manner to reflect Britain’s interest as conceived by the political leaders of the respective governments of the day. I don’t think anyone can forecast the future progress or failure of Britain within the EU. It is for the future historians to look back and talk about how Britain has fared amidst the discontentment with the ramifying conditions of the EU membership, taking in to account the global influences and impacts.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

AnandLeo said:


> I don’t think anyone can forecast the future progress or failure of Britain within the EU.


there are thousands of people whose livelihood depends on their forecasting such events and trends.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> India isn't in the EU.


not traditionally, no


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> why not cut out the middleman and occasionally have a glance at that paper yourself?



Alternatively,   there is stuff I'm currently holding myself back from taking him to task over (I'm theoretically on ignore anyway).  But I'm not a big fan of echo chambers.  Getting rid of astro-turfers , who probably hadn't read any of the preceding text before jumping in and coming out with stuff that would make you think twice about some one you'd known for years rather than complete strangers a better ask. 

Greezbozz at least somehow a ten year history and over a thousand posts...There are other posters who have been scared out of this corner of the site, and I think urban would be better if that hadn't happened -principal rather than his politics, (there's a real wtf. in there)


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 26, 2016)




----------



## Coolfonz (May 26, 2016)

Greebozz said:


> I do know where you're coming from, everything is so politically correct, it's all about the way you express yourself.  It's the same with me with all the BS in the media it makes one long to express oneself in a non-varnished way, it's the same with me.
> 
> What you said is largely true and you have the media covering up information for fear of stirring up racism, and while I can understand I feel that the world gone mad.  In the UK hospitals have gone into the red and accident and emergency department have been overwhelmed but you'll never hear a journalist discussing the reasons why that might be because if he did it be accused of being a racist.
> 
> ...


Extreme victimhood and delusions right there.


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2016)

Boris says something I agree with !


oh, hang on.


----------



## AnandLeo (May 26, 2016)

I can draw a sort of parallel between David Cameron, Boris Johnson, and Miliband brothers. Miliband brothers are from one mould, but they have differences and some similarities. Likewise, David Cameron and Boris are from another distinctive mould, but they have differences and similarities.
Not statistically significant of course.


----------



## weltweit (May 26, 2016)

All four of them can stand up in front of an audience and string a few sentences together. That in itself is a skill, not one that I have, but on top of that to be great leaders, they need a lot more and I am not sure any of the four of them have what it takes to be a great leader.


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> All four of them can stand up in front of an audience and string a few sentences together. That in itself is a skill, not one that I have, but on top of that to be great leaders, they need a lot more and I am not sure any of the four of them have what it takes to be a great leader.



And yet that what Boris clearly thinks this, is about.  Ah well, rhubarb rhubarb... gave it my best shot...., but you will vote for me for the important things ....rhubarb rhubarb the fore coming Tory leadership elections.

The immigration targets may have been cynical, but to try and glean votes from that , when we'd still be in the single market (which does have freedom of movement of people as one of its four pillars)- cynicism^2


----------



## weltweit (May 26, 2016)

And I think to be a great leader, the people have to know what you stand for, at the moment the only leading politician where people know what they stand for is Corbyn. Does anyone know what Johnson stands for, apart from a personal ambition?


----------



## weltweit (May 26, 2016)

gosub said:


> .. The immigration targets may have been cynical, but to try and glean votes from that , when we'd still be in the single market (which does have freedom of movement of people as one of its four pillars)- cynicism^2


Yes, if leave wants to remain in the single market, they will have to accept EU free movement. If they are arguing they will reduce EU immigration then I think that is dishonest.


----------



## gosub (May 26, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Yes, if leave wants to remain in the single market, they will have to accept EU free movement. If they are arguing they will reduce EU immigration then I think that is dishonest.



What they are arguing is a position they couldn't possibly get through a Parliament where 69% is publicly backing remain.  A Leave but still in the Single Market is the only one that's doable because a lot of those MP's don't seem to be able to tell the difference between the Single Market and the EU.


I think the best that can be achieved in this referendum is that more people will grasp there is a difference.  The small matter of over arching Global bodies and our relationship with them - isn't going to come up.  -Public Sector Procurement is under  WTO umbrella


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 26, 2016)

Boris playing the one trick 'Kipper' card/votes today - Immigration. The dangerous racist mop haired cunt.


----------



## Ranbay (May 28, 2016)

My postal vote card is here


----------



## brogdale (May 28, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Boris playing the one trick 'Kipper' card/votes today - Immigration. The dangerous racist mop haired cunt.


Good LRB piece by Jan-Werner Muller, LRB · Jan-Werner Müller · Europe’s Sullen Child: Breurope, in which he offers the term "project victimhood" for the brexiteers, and calls out the racist strategy of the populists...


----------



## gosub (May 28, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Good LRB piece by Jan-Werner Muller, LRB · Jan-Werner Müller · Europe’s Sullen Child: Breurope, in which he offers the term "project victimhood" for the brexiteers, and calls out the racist strategy of the populists...


Dense text of an article. But worth a read. We covered the constitution debacle at the time, and the _Spitzenkandidaten ,_ on that, this probably most pertinently isn't addressed in the article.  Back to Lisbon, what we we were sold as a tidying up exercise, it now turns out has enough scope in to allow for the introduction of pan EU national insurance for example. That's not tidying up. But the EU was so put out by what happened with Lisbon it be would rather use loop holes and bend out of shape existing treaties rather than the slog of formulating new ones with the gnashing of teeth when it fails (through whatever means) to get the blessing of all EUropean states.  That makes Cameron's law of no treaty change without referendum increasingly threadbare, (and adds to why they are using the work arounds).

The when is a veto not a veto bit, I had the same understanding, and it would that I would have used for a can't trust Cameron sledging rather Turkey if it were me.  (would have been preaching to the converted here though me thinks.) I think similar vetoy thing may apply to the EUro army,  but I'm still getting my head round that and got exams to do this week which take priory.

It final paragraph about losing power, actually we get power back in that the UK's voice is its own rather than common position on global body talks - though not EU - China talks.  But that might just be me be sullen and lining up a future mobilisation - personally I'd rather we were addressing it simultaneously.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 28, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> My postal vote card is here




Half of that's in forrin 


Facking Eastern European no doubt


----------



## Ranbay (May 28, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Half of that's in forrin
> 
> 
> Facking Eastern European no doubt




Think that's bad? on the 23rd June the school is shut for Poland day!!! WFT!!1111 one!!1


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 28, 2016)

Remember when the Poles told us that Labour would win the general election and then the Tories did instead?


----------



## brogdale (May 30, 2016)

Maybe I'm edging off into TFH territory here...but does anyone else think the migrant boat in the English channel story seems just a tad too convenient for the 'leave' lot?
Two UK nationals arrested along with 18 Albanians...hmmm.


----------



## tim (May 30, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> India isn't in the EU.



Bangladesh isn't in India.


----------



## tim (May 30, 2016)

weltweit said:


> And I think to be a great leader, the people have to know what you stand for, at the moment the only leading politician where people know what they stand for is Corbyn. Does anyone know what Johnson stands for, apart from a personal ambition?




He stands for Wiff-Waff


----------



## Ranbay (May 30, 2016)




----------



## redsquirrel (May 30, 2016)

Brought to you by the same wankers as this


----------



## NoXion (May 30, 2016)

Yeah, 'cause the financial harrowing of Greece was a completely sane endeavour.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 30, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Yeah, 'cause the financial harrowing of Greece was a completely sane endeavour.


I take it that's directed to Ranbay not me?


----------



## NoXion (May 30, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> I take it that's directed to Ranbay not me?



Yes. Sorry.


----------



## Ranbay (May 30, 2016)

It's a funny picture from the internets, if you look about there is lots of them. True story.


----------



## NoXion (May 30, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> It's a funny picture from the internets, if you look about there is lots of them. True story.



It's shit.


----------



## Ranbay (May 30, 2016)

NoXion said:


> It's shit.



have a diffrent one then.


----------



## NoXion (May 30, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> have a diffrent one then.



This is the EU referendum thread, not the "post stupid pictures" thread, which is here. HTH


----------



## redsquirrel (May 30, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> It's a funny picture from the internets, if you look about there is lots of them. True story.


It's the type of sneering liberal shit posted by wankers that illustrates that they've not got a clue about the (very valid) concerns that many, many people have about politics these days. Precisely the type of shit that is turning people away from traditional parties and voting for UKIP or their like.


----------



## Ranbay (May 30, 2016)

NoXion said:


> This is the EU referendum thread, not the "post stupid pictures" thread, which is here. HTH


----------



## two sheds (May 30, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> It's the type of sneering liberal shit posted by wankers that illustrates that they've not got a clue about the (very valid) concerns that many, many people have about politics these days. Precisely the type of shit that is turning people away from traditional parties and voting for UKIP or their like.



Examples of funny non-sneering-liberal-shit images about the referendum? Not having a go, would be interested to see them to know the difference. 

Does this sort of stuff actually turn people to UKIP? I'd have thought it is aimed at people who aren't UKIP, and wouldn't be likely to push them over the edge. And again if so - how do you talk to UKIPpers to turn them away from it?


----------



## Ranbay (May 30, 2016)

It's got one like, we should keep an eye on that person,........


----------



## two sheds (May 30, 2016)

Well choice 1 should obviously have been the same as choice 2 but would that have made any difference to it being sneering liberal shit?


----------



## NoXion (May 30, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Well choice 1 should obviously have been the same as choice 2 but would that have made any difference to it being sneering liberal shit?



I'd say so. The image presents a typical liberal dichotomy; either "remain in the EU like all normal, sane people" or "vote exit you crazy psycho".


----------



## butchersapron (May 30, 2016)

Interesting to see what people get upset about.


----------



## two sheds (May 30, 2016)

NoXion said:


> I'd say so. The image presents a typical liberal dichotomy; either "remain in the EU like all normal, sane people" or "vote exit you crazy psycho".



Yes that's fair.


----------



## NoXion (May 30, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Yes that's fair.



Erm, no it isn't? It attempts to present only one choice as a legitimate political position, while questioning the sanity of anyone who thinks otherwise.


----------



## two sheds (May 30, 2016)

Hehe I meant your comment was a good one.


----------



## teqniq (May 30, 2016)

I just thought it was vaguely amusing, and I do not consider myself a liberal, sneering or otherwise.


----------



## two sheds (May 30, 2016)

Indeed - 'psycho nutjob' is a fair description of gove and johnson and they will very likely be running the country if we do vote out, which was my first reaction to it.

What noXion said though. It suggests that staying in is the logical and sane choice, when it's actually going to be taken by the EU as a resounding confirmation that we're happy with the undemocratic decisions that get made now and it's going to be full-speed ahead with TTIP and the rest.


----------



## gosub (May 30, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Indeed - 'psycho nutjob' is a fair description of gove and johnson and they will very likely be running the country if we do vote out, which was my first reaction to it.
> 
> What noXion said though. It suggests that staying in is the logical and sane choice, when it's actually going to be taken by the EU as a resounding confirmation that we're happy with the undemocratic decisions that get made now and it's going to be full-speed ahead with TTIP and the rest.


I think you have it backwards,  Mr Johnston and Mr Gove have the reconsilitory votes of Tory remainers in a Leadership.  Fox has made a better out case... Whilst Mr Johnston and above have stuck to the cartoon out vote Leave has pushed.   Turns out money has influence (who knew!)  and a lot of vote leave funding comes from a handful of very private people. 


If we have to have an illuminatii, I'd rather have the KLF


----------



## pocketscience (May 30, 2016)

NoXion said:


> I'd say so. The image presents a typical liberal dichotomy; either "remain in the EU like all normal, sane people" or "vote exit you crazy psycho".


...or a satirical parody of the lengths the bremain fear mongerers would go if they could...(?)

Hardly worth getting nickers in a twist about


----------



## J Ed (May 30, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Examples of funny non-sneering-liberal-shit images about the referendum? Not having a go, would be interested to see them to know the difference.
> 
> Does this sort of stuff actually turn people to UKIP? I'd have thought it is aimed at people who aren't UKIP, and wouldn't be likely to push them over the edge. And again if so - how do you talk to UKIPpers to turn them away from it?



If someone was talking to you about your political position and they said that you had only reached it because you were stupid and a failure then would you be less or more likely to continue to hold that political position? I know the answer I have to that question, and I suspect it is shared by 99.9% of us humans.


----------



## two sheds (May 30, 2016)

J Ed said:


> If someone was talking to you about your political position and they said that you had only reached it because you were stupid and a failure then would you be less or more likely to continue to hold that political position? I know the answer I have to that question, and I suspect it is shared by 99.9% of us humans.



True, but it didn't actually say that - it said we'd be letting a load of psycho nutjobs take over the country. 

You're talking about the 'blame a foreigner' poster? In which case fair enough, but even there the people you'd mainly be offending would surely be people who *do* blame foreign people for the problems we have. In which case it's not pushing people into UKIP but making UKIPpers angry, in the same way that UKIPpers when they have a go at political correctness are aiming to make lefties angry.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (May 30, 2016)

from cartoonralph on tweeter


----------



## William of Walworth (May 31, 2016)

Previous post deleted.

Accurate version :

Deadline for sorting put a postal vote for the EU referendum. You have to get this *sorted before 5pm, Wednesday June 8th.*

Go online and print the forms, takes moments. We did it and it was a piece of piss.

(If you intend to vote that is. And if you'll be away on voting day. Like at Glastonbury or something  ).


----------



## Ranbay (May 31, 2016)

Sent mine off today


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2016)

Today’s MSM have the state “remain” campaign complaining that voters (presumably predominantly ‘Labour voters’) do not understand the party’s stance on the issue. A useful line for the state campaign to take as it simultaneously highlights a key demographic upon whom they depend whilst also leaving a rod with which to beat the LP following a close win or defeat for the state.


Aside from the obvious party political point of why should voters hold any coherent view on Labour’s party line when the governing party is so desperately riven, I’d say that it is quite an encouraging sign if voters are confused about this referendum. In this grand exercise of lies, misrepresentation and dissembling set within a matrix of false consciousness, working class voters have every right to feel unsure of anything that is being presented to them as “fact”.


We only have to look at the ‘key issues’ (as identified by pollsters) to see the exercise for what it is.



Throughout the campaign the key themes presented as differentiation between the 2 campaigns have represented appeals to classic elements of false consciousness, particularly focussed upon "the national interest".

So working class voters are expected to gladly involve themselves in a contest between interest groups discussing how best to effect accelerated neoliberal de-democratisation of the economy and consolidation of the deep, security state. Areas up for discussion including how best employers can escape any intervention into their exploitation and accumulation, depress wages, and how the state apparatus can continue to wage expeditionary warfare and surveillance .

All of which is presented as ‘in the British interest’ or ‘in the interest of the British economy’ or, worse still, ‘in the interests of British workers’.

I’m continuing to struggle to see how left-libertarians can find any meaningful position in this ‘debate’ or indeed find any motivation to vote.


----------



## gosub (May 31, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Today’s MSM have the state “remain” campaign complaining that voters (presumably predominantly ‘Labour voters’) do not understand the party’s stance on the issue. A useful line for the state campaign to take as it simultaneously highlights a key demographic upon whom they depend whilst also leaving a rod with which to beat the LP following a close win or defeat for the state.
> 
> 
> Aside from the obvious party political point of why should voters hold any coherent view on Labour’s party line when the governing party is so desperately riven, I’d say that it is quite an encouraging sign if voters are confused about this referendum. In this grand exercise of lies, misrepresentation and dissembling set within a matrix of false consciousness, working class voters have every right to feel unsure of anything that is being presented to them as “fact”.
> ...



There must always be a mesh between top-down and bottom up politics, a medium between what happens is our leaders decree and nothing gets done unless Colin from Rotherham is onboard.  Whilst the big big battalions fire what is frankly bullshit over the top, they cannot better calibrate their guns if those on the ground refuse to engage. 

Apathy rarely changes anything.

*live with hearing range of MOD training grounds (current exercise colouring my mood)


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2016)

gosub said:


> Apathy rarely changes anything.


You'll be unsurprised to learn that I don't regard deliberate disengagement as apathy.
Neither do I recognise that either 'option' offered in the referendum question represent the prospect of meaningful change in the circumstances of working class people.


----------



## Moook (May 31, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You'll be unsurprised to learn that I don't regard deliberate disengagement as apathy.
> Neither do I recognise that either 'option' offered in the referendum question represent the prospect of meaningful change in the circumstances of working class people.



Disengagement is only apathy when it's not deliberate? So if I choose to completely disengage from any political activity, critique or contemplation, take no part in civic society and answer any enquiry of a political nature with a shrug and a mumbled 'fuck all to do with me mate', I'm not being apathetic as long as I positively choose to behave in this way? 
That kinda wipes out the demographic previously known as 'the apathetic'...which is a shame because at least since the Elmira study, a healthy dose of apathy has been regarded as a basic condition of representatitive democracy.
Your definition may spell the end of bourgeois political economy. Well done you.


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2016)

Moook said:


> Disengagement is only apathy when it's not deliberate? So if I choose to completely disengage from any political activity, critique or contemplation, take no part in civic society and answer any enquiry of a political nature with a shrug and a mumbled 'fuck all to do with me mate', I'm not being apathetic as long as I positively choose to behave in this way?
> That kinda wipes out the demographic previously known as 'the apathetic'...which is a shame because at least since the Elmira study, a healthy dose of apathy has been regarded as a basic condition of representatitive democracy.
> Your definition may spell the end of bourgeois political economy. Well done you.


Pretty straightforward, I'd have thought?
In the context of the referendum, (which is the subject matter of this thread), I was saying that I don't accept that a deliberate position of disengagement is necessarily indicative of a lack of interest or concern; attributes usually associated with apathy.
That's all.


----------



## gosub (May 31, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You'll be unsurprised to learn that I don't regard deliberate disengagement as apathy.
> Neither do I recognise that either 'option' offered in the referendum question represent the prospect of meaningful change in the circumstances of working class people.



Given the actuality of widespread opposition whichever outcome, it quite understandable that there would be as little meat pared as possible. That this knocks on to a lack of meaningful change quite deliberate.  Not sure that justifies a downing of tools but is your personal right.


----------



## ffsear (May 31, 2016)

New poll now suggests Leave is ahead of remain

New Brexit polls shows 'leave' side ahead, GBP falls

UK voters leaning towards Brexit, Guardian poll reveals


----------



## danny la rouge (May 31, 2016)

I've not been able to work up much of a fuck about this referendum, but this caught my attention:

Chris Grayling: notion of second indyref on back of Brexit is just talk

"THE prospect of a second independence referendum should Scotland be dragged out of the European Union against its wishes has been brushed aside by UK cabinet minister and leading Leave campaigner Chris Grayling, who dismissed it as “just talk”."

“It’s not remotely either sensible or feasible for Scotland to start talking about a second referendum…The people of Scotland voted very clearly to stay in the Union and Alex Salmond said at the time that was a decision for a generation; we should hold him to that.”

As it happens, I don't think there will be a second independence referendum as a result of the outcome of June's vote, nor would I want there to be as I think it'd be lost, but that's not what I'm interested in here. It was Grayling's remark that "we should hold [Salmond] to that".

- How? First, he's no longer First Minister, nor leader of the SNP, nor is he even an MSP: he's a Westminster MP now. He wouldn't be calling a second referendum; Nicola Sturgeon would. And she says she'll only do so if she sees an appetite from the electorate for one. (And that's who should decide whether there is to be one anyway: the public).

Furthermore, whatever remark Salmond may or may not have made about the independence referendum being the last "for a generation", there was no such clause included on the paper. So while he might have given _his_ opinion on the matter, I fail to see how it was binding on anyone else. Even less so given that he is no longer in a position to make any guarantee one way or the other. If the Scottish Parliament decides to call a second referendum, Salmond won't be there to see it done, unless as a visitor.  

So Grayling's threat to "hold him to it" is in itself "just talk". And nonsensical talk at that.


----------



## two sheds (May 31, 2016)

Perhaps we could hold Cameron to the NHS being safe in his hands.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 31, 2016)

graylings a grade A twat though, proper robot. Came to my attention when he tried to ban prisoners recieving books sent in. Which was then quashed by the courts making him look like the book banning cunt he is


----------



## laptop (May 31, 2016)

Guardian/ICM said:
			
		

> Scotland is for remain, while voters in England and Wales would back Brexit.



In the event that Scotland swung it for Remain, would Grayling demand TWO new referenda?


----------



## Sprocket. (May 31, 2016)

I believe grayling should always be returned to the depths they emerge from!


----------



## brogdale (May 31, 2016)

danny la rouge said:


> I've not been able to work up much of a fuck about this referendum, but this caught my attention:
> 
> Chris Grayling: notion of second indyref on back of Brexit is just talk
> 
> ...


Grayling's only interest here is a crass attempt to neutralise what might be perceived as a downside/barrier to English swivel-eyed unionists piling in to vote leave.


----------



## J Ed (May 31, 2016)

I love how the people who call Corbyn an IRA sympathiser, a Hamas supporter and a dangerous red are also criticising him for (unlike once ISIS supporter and now just 'proud Muslim' Sadiq Khan) refusing to share a platform with Tories to support remain.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 31, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> graylings a grade A twat though, proper robot. Came to my attention when he tried to ban prisoners recieving books sent in. Which was then quashed by the courts making him look like the book banning cunt he is



He's much worse than a 'bot, he's a numbskull who believes himself to be a political genius.


----------



## marty21 (May 31, 2016)

Anyone else see the leave campaign political broadcast ? A bizarre ad for their win £50m on predicting all the results in the Euro Championship  (ham fisted reference to the £350m a week claim) followed by how great the NHS will be after Brexit as we can spend all that money on it. It made Britain First broadcasts seem like oscar winning material.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 31, 2016)

marty21 said:


> Anyone else see the leave campaign political broadcast ? A bizarre ad for their win £50m on predicting all the results in the Euro Championship  (ham fisted reference to the £350m a week claim) followed by how great the NHS will be after Brexit as we can spend all that money on it. It made Britain First broadcasts seem like oscar winning material.



I think it was deliberately amateurish and a bit shit, to appeal to the kind of older voters who adored Love thy Neighbour and feel lost in the modern world.


----------



## gosub (May 31, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> I think it was deliberately amateurish and a bit shit, to appeal to the kind of older voters who adored Love thy Neighbour and feel lost in the modern world.


Coz they are really having to work hard for that demographic... Looks shot out of order and they didn't even fully clean off the facepacks for the first scene


----------



## weltweit (May 31, 2016)

Was it this one?:


----------



## marty21 (Jun 1, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Was it this one?:



Yes but with the added bonus of a football competition and 'comedy' sketch


----------



## SE25 (Jun 1, 2016)

fun to see the NHS used as a reason to leave by people who couldn't give a shit about it normally


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2016)

SE25 said:


> fun to see the NHS used as a reason to leave by people who couldn't give a shit about it normally


But the NHS is patriotic, it was in the Olympic ceremony and everything


----------



## ffsear (Jun 1, 2016)

Possible very dumb question coming up.....

We we still be able to enter the EuroMillions lottery if we leave the EU?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 1, 2016)

the pound will plummet


----------



## Flanflinger (Jun 1, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Possible very dumb question coming up.....
> 
> We we still be able to enter the EuroMillions lottery if we leave the EU?



Yeah....................but your winnings will be all in Drachmas.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 1, 2016)

ffsear said:


> Possible very dumb question coming up.....
> 
> We we still be able to enter the EuroMillions lottery if we leave the EU?


no, you'll have to sate your sinful gambling habits on those roullette machines at the bookies and weep as two weeks wages are gone in three spins


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2016)




----------



## Teaboy (Jun 1, 2016)

South West trains again.  Somebody will be getting in the shit if they find out which train that is.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> South West trains again.  Somebody will be getting in the shit if they find out which train that is.




Fella's been suspended apparently


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 1, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fella's been suspended apparently



Then again it is a Stagecoach franchise and Brian Souter was bang up for independence when it was the Scottish referendum.  Perhaps that should be the blokes defence......


----------



## killer b (Jun 1, 2016)

Preston.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 1, 2016)

WTF? 

Seriously, what is this intended to mean?


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 1, 2016)

Its rivers of blood time again.  Oasis lyrics are riddled with references to Enoch's speeches.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 1, 2016)

Does anyone really give a toss what Noel thinks or says these days? Even his brother hates him & thinks he's a potato!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 1, 2016)

ridiculous what an embarrassment


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2016)

My first thought was the 700+ that died last week, but I can see the rivers of blood thing.  WTF indeed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 1, 2016)

liam gallagher has never made an ounce of sense. His brother is the more articulate dickhead. I like him admitting that oasis were shit while doing a DVD commentary 'oh this ones all right, summat to jump up and down to when your pissed'


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Jun 1, 2016)

Idris2002 said:


> WTF?
> 
> Seriously, what is this intended to mean?



The official version will be "we're concerned that people are travelling dangerous journeys into Europe because the freedom of movement makes Europe a desirable destination.  We care for their safety.  Vote out."

The hope is that it resonates with voters as "brown people will get a council house and benefits, blow shit up and introduce Sharia Law.  Vote out."


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2016)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> The official version will be "we're concerned that people are travelling dangerous journeys into Europe because the freedom of movement makes Europe a desirable destination.  We care for their safety.  Vote out."
> 
> The hope is that it resonates with voters as "brown people will get a council house and benefits, blow shit up and introduce Sharia Law.  Vote out."



no: just found where they lifted it from Noel Gallagher wants to KILL all terrorists as he slams Bono's 'loving' approach.


If they cared for anyones safety they'd cut the histrionics, regardless of the vote we're all still be living here.


----------



## red & green (Jun 1, 2016)

That NHS thing is a joke - the out of the EU section forgot to show the price list menu


----------



## Buckaroo (Jun 1, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> Its rivers of blood time again.  Oasis lyrics are riddled with references to Enoch's speeches.



Too right. " All around the world" channelling Katie Hopkins!

So what you gonna do when the walls come falling down?
You never move you never make a sound
So where you gonna swim with the ridges that you found?
If you're lost at sea then I hope that you've drowned


----------



## red & green (Jun 1, 2016)

They are desperate if they are relying on the gallaghers


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2016)

Buckaroo said:


> Too right. " All around the world" channelling Katie Hopkins!
> 
> So what you gonna do when the walls come falling down?
> You never move you never make a sound
> ...



how is Ian Brown's wall coming along?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 1, 2016)

red & green said:


> They are desperate if they are relying on the gallaghers




Has Alex James waded in yet?


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 1, 2016)

...it's not quite the full Clapton though tbf...


----------



## Santino (Jun 1, 2016)

Anyone heard from Jeremy Irons lately?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2016)

Santino said:


> Anyone heard from Jeremy Irons lately?


Yes


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 1, 2016)

Leave did have better musicians in the bag than Oasis, but unfortunately East 17 have now withdrawn their support.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 1, 2016)

This Guardian poll put online on Tuesday  (I think) seems to be showing  a swing towards 'Leave' in both phone and online polls. Part of a wider trend developing? Or maybe more of a rogue poll? 

Absolutely no idea, so I'll ask an expert. Calling brogdale


----------



## weltweit (Jun 1, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> This Guardian poll put online on Tuesday  (I think) seems to be showing  a swing towards 'Leave' in both phone and online polls. Part of a wider trend developing? Or maybe more of a rogue poll?
> 
> Absolutely no idea, so I'll ask an expert. Calling brogdale


I hope the polls are wrong.
I really think leaving the EU would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 1, 2016)

Surprisingly low figures for don't knows in those polls?


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I hope the polls are wrong.
> I really think leaving the EU would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.


The out they are selling I'd probably agree.  But that's not an out that can be achieved realistically


----------



## brogdale (Jun 1, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> This Guardian poll put online on Tuesday  (I think) seems to be showing  a swing towards 'Leave' in both phone and online polls. Part of a wider trend developing? Or maybe more of a rogue poll?
> 
> Absolutely no idea, so I'll ask an expert. Calling brogdale


Not sure about trend...not a long enough time-span, really...but if 'leave' were going to make any progress it had to be this week. Remember that since 'purdah' started last Friday, the state remainarian campaign has lost some of its asymmetry of propaganda. Given this change, it would have been surprising if 'leave' had shown no poll progress at all, especially given the co-incidence of them deploying their 'nuke' of immigration and the 'convenient' re-appearance of migration stories in the news agenda.

I think that 'leave' will peak briefly and then we'll see 'remain' reassert polling leads as we get closer to poll.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 1, 2016)

gosub said:


> The out they are selling I'd probably agree.  But that's not an out that can be achieved realistically


It seems they are saying if we vote out we can control immigration with a points system. But my belief is that if we want to remain in the single market we will have to accept free movement. And I can't believe that anyone could really be suggesting we wave goodbye to the largest market on the planet - which is right on our doorsteps! Are they really suggesting that? I doubt it.


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It seems they are saying if we vote out we can control immigration with a points system. But my belief is that if we want to remain in the single market we will have to accept free movement. And I can't believe that anyone could really be suggesting we wave goodbye to the largest market on the planet - which is right on our doorsteps! Are they really suggesting that? I doubt it.



This I am buying.   Its the only one you'd get through parliament in the time.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 1, 2016)

Remind me again, why are we having this referendum, why and why now? oh yes, it was because Cameron wanted to keep his divided party united before a general election! Stupid idea!


----------



## gosub (Jun 1, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Remind me again, why are we having this referendum, why and why now? oh yes, it was because Cameron wanted to keep his divided party united before a general election! Stupid idea!



And minimise the pull UKIP had.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jun 1, 2016)

gosub said:


> Boris says something I agree with !
> 
> 
> oh, hang on.



I liked when he said: "....and I come as the Mayor until recently of a city that has thrived  on immigration."   He slipped that one in,  what did he mean?


----------



## laptop (Jun 1, 2016)

toblerone3 said:


> I liked when he said: "....and I come as the Mayor until recently of a city that has thrived  on immigration."   He slipped that one in,  what did he mean?


Freedom of movement for bankers.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jun 1, 2016)

laptop said:


> Freedom of movement for bankers.



I think he was also talking about the immigration of the low-paid into London bring the biggest benefit in the host country; the migrants; and the home country of the migrants throuigh remittances.	

Is there are a political position which incorporates accelerationist trotskyism with neo-liberalism?/Open borders.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 1, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...it's not quite the full Clapton though tbf...


It's not far off.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 1, 2016)

Nigel Farage was in leeds today. I got a text saying he was in a pub down the road from me so i popped in. It seemed pretty empty then I see falange himself strolling towards me. So I called him racist shit-stirring liar who doesn't give a fuck about ordinary working people - he denied it and walked off to his car whilst his goons stopped me following him. There was nobody else in the pub, no cameras or anything - so all a bit weird. He didn't seem too bothered unfortunately. Apparently someone else had given him a mouthful of abuse in the other bar a few minutes previously and earlier in the day someone threatened to slit his throat when he went into a barbers shop - so I guess he's used to it.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 2, 2016)

Kaka Tim said:


> Nigel Farage was in leeds today. I got a text saying he was in a pub down the road from me so i popped in. It seemed pretty empty then I see falange himself strolling towards me. So I called him racist shit-stirring liar who doesn't give a fuck about ordinary working people - he denied it and walked off to his car whilst his goons stopped me following him. There was nobody else in the pub, no cameras or anything - so all a bit weird. He didn't seem too bothered unfortunately. Apparently someone else had given him a mouthful of abuse in the other bar a few minutes previously and earlier in the day someone threatened to slit his throat when he went into a barbers shop - so I guess he's used to it.


I just managed to stick 2s up at his bus as I drove past it. 

When you say he walked off to his car, does that mean that he's not actually being driven around in the bus?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> This I am buying.   Its the only one you'd get through parliament in the time.


They will have to swallow EU immigration .. a large part of their misleading emphasis atm ..


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> They will have to swallow EU immigration .. a large part of their misleading emphasis atm ..


Agreed.  If they were planning on winning the referendum. Will be able to call in under ten days if party trumps national interest in all counts.  If does Corbyn's got a problem


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

Inward investment is the sort of thing that will be severely damaged if we vote exit from the EU.


> Foreign investment in the UK hits record £975bn, second only to America, UK Trade and Investment report shows.
> 
> Official figures show the number of projects backed by overseas investors jumped 14% in 2013-14, the highest since records began in the 1980s. The data will cement UK’s reputation as top destination in Europe for foreign companies.
> 
> Lord Livingston, the trade minister said: ” It has been an exeptional year for foreign investment with record project numbers creating the highest number of new UK jobs since 2001. It shows that our strategy to attract investors to the UK by creating one of the most business- friendly environments in the world is the right one and it is proof that foreign investors have confidence in the UK as the best place to do business.”


UK attracts highest level of inward investment on record | EBS - European Business Solutions


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Inward investment is the sort of thing that will be severely damaged if we vote exit from the EU.
> 
> UK attracts highest level of inward investment on record | EBS - European Business Solutions


no, would be damaged if we left the Single Market.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> no, would be damaged if we left the Single Market.


Oh, do you mean it could be ok if we left the EU but remained in the single market? I suppose that is true.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Oh, do you mean it could be ok if we left the EU but remained in the single market? I suppose that is true.


Like leaving but not leaving?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Like leaving but not leaving?


It would be good to be clear, do brexiters want out of the single market?


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Oh, do you mean it could be ok if we left the EU but remained in the single market? I suppose that is true.


There is very limited support here for the mainstream barrage of bullshit.  There is one window to move away from it and will be telling if it is taken.	

In the meantime is interesting Vote Leave said it wanted nothing to do with Farage and UKIP and there marmite brand (still true I believe).  Odd then that the only way they could have stolen more of Farage's clothes is if Boris literally went round in mustard coloured trousers and a tweed jacket.   The omni directionally flawed 'Australian points'  scheme was UKIP manifesto.. Remain don't have to dig too hard for the playbook on countering it... BUT it gives the impression VL are trying.


----------



## youngian (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It would be good to be clear, do brexiters want out of the single market?


Depends who you ask. The more honest ones who want to end free movement and EU contributions are resigned to a messy relationship outside of the single market with bilateral arrangements and "working something out." Boris and Farage for eg will say we can have the same single market access without any obligations because "Germany wants to sell us BMWs." And nor will there be any bar on Brits wanting to retire in Portugal or get a job in Germany when times get tough.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It would be good to be clear, do brexiters want out of the single market?


_I want my country back._


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

youngian said:


> Depends who you ask. The more honest ones who want to end free movement and EU contributions are resigned to a messy relationship outside of the single market with bilateral arrangements and "working something out." Boris and Farage for eg will say we can have the same single market access without any obligations because "Germany wants to sell us BMWs." And nor will there be any bar on Brits wanting to retire in Portugal or get a job in Germany when times get tough.


Another grouping could only  be done in stages and Europe's reaction to each stage taken into account before moving to a further stage.  Straight out is not regarded by them as practical.


----------



## youngian (Jun 2, 2016)

gosub said:


> Odd then that the only way they could have stolen more of Farage's clothes is if Boris literally went round in mustard coloured trousers and a tweed jacket.   The omni directionally flawed 'Australian points'  scheme was UKIP manifesto.. Remain don't have to dig too hard for the playbook on countering it... BUT it gives the impression VL are trying.



Brexit have already got the anti-immigrant vote in the bag but Vote Leave feared that banging on about it would put off floating voters hence elbowing Farage aside. Their latest ramping up of xenophopbia indicates they have lost the centre ground and going all out nuclear to get the anti-immigrant vote out as they are in low turnout demograhics. Much more worrying is that fear and hate mongering can spread like a virus.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> _I want my country back._


I want fewer national boundaries and less nationalism. I think the way forward is more and more collaboration between former nation states. I applauded the reunification of Germany and Germany's increased involvement in the EU. In an increasingly interconnected world it is those who collaborate most that will deliver greater freedoms for their populations.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I want fewer national boundaries and less nationalism. I think the way forward is more and more collaboration between former nation states. I applauded the reunification of Germany and Germany's increased involvement in the EU. In an increasingly interconnected world it is those who collaborate most that will deliver greater freedoms for their populations.


Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that was your view...merely the average response of those 'leavists' vox-popped by MSM.


----------



## youngian (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> _I want my country back._





weltweit said:


> I want fewer national boundaries and less nationalism. I think the way forward is more and more collaboration between former nation states. I applauded the reunification of Germany and Germany's increased involvement in the EU. In an increasingly interconnected world it is those who collaborate most that will deliver greater freedoms for their populations.



I applaud your patience with your eloquent reply to such a dumb vacuous statement.


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

youngian said:


> Brexit have already got the anti-immigrant vote in the bag but Vote Leave feared that banging on about it would put off floating voters hence elbowing Farage aside. Their latest ramping up of xenophopbia indicates they have lost the centre ground and going all out nuclear to get the anti-immigrant vote out as they are in low turnout demograhics. Much more worrying is that fear and hate mongering can spread like a virus.


Equally concerned about that virus.   Think that shore up can't win, and should  be a no brainer.  But delivers UKIP South East back to Tory fold whilst UKIP feasts on Labour Northern heartlands.  Collecting EUro seed money with and saying We share your pain...  France et al left to address illegal immigration.(irrespective of the referendum)


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

youngian said:


> I applaud your patience with your eloquent reply to such a dumb vacuous statement.


Dumb & vacuous it is, but it also represents a central theme of the 'leavists' campaign, and represents the lack of thought given to issues around proposed trading patterns.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

Just heard Priti Patel on the radio repeating this £350m a week claim. She should be legally prevented from propagating what is basically a lie! Does she not even recognise Thatcher's massive rebate?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Just heard Priti Patel on the radio repeating this £350m a week claim. She should be legally prevented from propagating what is basically a lie! Does she not even recognise Thatcher's massive rebate?


Are you suggesting that there is some legal impediment to politicians lying?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Are you suggesting that there is some legal impediment to politicians lying?


There certainly should be!
On something as important as this, leave perpetuating such a lie should be able to be challenged!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

Remain should be spouting that Britain has benefitted from £158m of inward investment *per day* for the last ten years - BECAUSE - we are in the EU!


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> There certainly should be!
> On something as important as this, leave perpetuating such a lie should be able to be challenged!


A law to stop politicians lying? Have you thought this one through?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> A law to stop politicians lying? Have you thought this one through?


What are the downsides?


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> What are the downsides?


Getting it through Parliament


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2016)

Well since they are trying to make a verbal contract with us we'd surely only need to get it through the courts.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> What are the downsides?


New thread possibility?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> New thread possibility?


I have opened my quota of new threads for a while


----------



## belboid (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I applauded the reunification of Germany and Germany's increased involvement in the EU.


The increased involvement that means the 'peripheral' economies (like Greece) get screwed whilst paying their 'debt' to, uhh, Germany? Yee ha


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I have opened my quota of new threads for a while


There are no quotas.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> In an increasingly *interconnected world* it is those who *collaborate *most that will deliver greater *freedoms *for their populations.



Don't follow the logic of this one. How does freedom (however your're defining that) relate to the first two?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

Hmmm...wonder what's spooked _ze Germans, _then?



This'll go down well with the "IWMCB" demographic!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

Get Surrey news asks the people of the county how they will vote, South West Surrey's MP in tune as per...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

Get Surrey News's sample is fair, balanced and representative, of course.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Remain should be spouting that Britain has benefitted from £158m of inward investment *per day* for the last ten years - BECAUSE - we are in the EU!


Spouting helps nobody. Can you show us your workings/ point to the source for this figure?


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jun 2, 2016)

Hands up if you cant take any more of this?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Remain should be spouting that Britain has benefitted from £158m of inward investment *per day* for the last ten years - BECAUSE - we are in the EU!



Doesn't inward investment = selling off bits of the country?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Get Surrey News's sample is fair, balanced and representative, of course.




Are you suggesting that some people in this fine land may not be retired majors with a couple of mill sunning itself in the Caymans


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 2, 2016)

Does anyone know when the result will come out?

Assume some time on the Friday?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 2, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't inward investment = selling off bits of the country?



It'll be fucking property sharks, including stuff like the billions being poured into luxury flats at Battersea (by the qataris) etc.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2016)

Indeed, they're going to want a good return on their investment.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

Barking_Mad said:


> Hands up if you cant take any more of this?


its at least provided us with whats best in life: watching interneccine tory warfare. Watching them say things about colleagues that you can't take back. Watching them shit the bed basically.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 2, 2016)

its "Jeremies for Europe"


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> The increased involvement that means the 'peripheral' economies (like Greece) get screwed whilst paying their 'debt' to, uhh, Germany? Yee ha


Germany does not chase a trade surplus for the sake of it, it has a trade surplus because it is good at manufacturing products that are in demand as exports. Britain could learn a lot about manufacturing from the Germans!


----------



## belboid (Jun 2, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> Does anyone know when the result will come out?
> 
> Assume some time on the Friday?


Counting at 400 odd centres from 2200 Thursday - about the same as for a general election. Each will announce once they have a total, so it should become clear quite quickly, but no final result till the early hours


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> Counting at 400 odd centres from 2200 Thursday - about the same as for a general election. Each will announce once they have a total, so it should become clear quite quickly, but no final result till the early hours



Thanks, will be at Glastonbury so will be on the look out for the result.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Spouting helps nobody. Can you show us your workings/ point to the source for this figure?


Actually it was £148m a day, my mistake.

Source: HM Government leaflet about the EU Referendum, Thursday, 23rd June 2016.

Actual text:

Over the last decade, foreign companies have invested £540 billion in the UK, equivalent to £148 million every day.


----------



## belboid (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Germany does not chase a trade surplus for the sake of it, it has a trade surplus because it is good at manufacturing products that are in demand as exports. Britain could learn a lot about manufacturing from the Germans!


It's not just about having a trade surplus tho (and not everyone can have one) it's about creating a financial system rigged in favour of those (few) countries that do have one


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't inward investment = selling off bits of the country?


No, in this case I would say that inward investment means building factories and employing people here rather than elsewhere in Europe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Actually it was £148m a day, my mistake.
> 
> Source: HM Government leaflet about the EU Referendum, Thursday, 23rd June 2016.
> 
> ...


yeh but how much have they taken out?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> It's not just about having a trade surplus tho (and not everyone can have one) it's about creating a financial system rigged in favour of those (few) countries that do have one


If you could expand on that I would be obliged.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Germany does not chase a trade surplus for the sake of it, it has a trade surplus because it is good at manufacturing products that are in demand as exports. Britain could learn a lot about manufacturing from the Germans!


Pre-Thatcher, Britain and Germany were roughly equals in manufacturing. Thatcher fucked that.

As for a trade surplus, well, lending to others helps (in fact, you have little choice - you have to lend to them so that they can buy from you, like China does, and ultimately this is a contradiction), and so does being in the euro. Without the euro, the Deutchmark would sky-rocket in value and Germans would not be able to export so easily.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pre-Thatcher, Britain and Germany were roughly equals in manufacturing. Thatcher fucked that.
> 
> As for a trade surplus, well, lending to others helps (in fact, you have little choice - you have to lend to them so that they can buy from you, like China does, and ultimately this is a contradiction), and so does being in the euro. Without the euro, the Deutchmark would sky-rocket in value and Germans would not be able to export so easily.


I don't know when it changed but I like manufacturing, it is difficult but very rewarding. There is no doubt though that manufacturing is not valued in Britain at the moment and has not been for some time whereas in Germany it remains strong and a large source of their export success story.

Britain needs a thriving manufacturing industry, it pisses me off endlessly politicians arguing that we are now a service economy. Only because we didn't enable our manufacturing industry to succeed leading to its decline.

Is Britain's manufacturing sector so damaged it could never recover? or could it given the right environment?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pre-Thatcher, Britain and Germany were roughly equals in manufacturing. Thatcher fucked that.



On purpose. As part of a conscious policy to further their class war.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't know when it changed but I like manufacturing, it is difficult but very rewarding. There is no doubt though that manufacturing is not valued in Britain at the moment and has not been for some time whereas in Germany it remains strong and a large source of their export success story.
> 
> Britain needs a thriving manufacturing industry, it pisses me off endlessly politicians arguing that we are now a service economy. Only because we didn't enable our manufacturing industry to succeed leading to its decline.
> 
> Is Britain's manufacturing sector so damaged it could never recover? or could it given the right environment?



Its dead as far as I'm aware. We manufacture a fair few high tech components and we also slot together a few cars but overall its fucked. We don't have the kit or the training.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> On purpose. As part of a conscious policy to further their class war.


Yep.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> No, in this case I would say that inward investment means building factories and employing people here rather than elsewhere in Europe.



Instead of us investing in building factories and employing people here, so that the benefits of the investment remained in the country.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't know when it changed but I like manufacturing, it is difficult but very rewarding. There is no doubt though that manufacturing is not valued in Britain at the moment and has not been for some time whereas in Germany it remains strong and a large source of their export success story.
> 
> Britain needs a thriving manufacturing industry, it pisses me off endlessly politicians arguing that we are now a service economy. Only because we didn't enable our manufacturing industry to succeed leading to its decline.
> 
> Is Britain's manufacturing sector so damaged it could never recover? or could it given the right environment?


As BS points out, though, this destruction was neither an accident nor a mistake. It was deliberate and served the ends of those who did it - those who are still in charge now.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its dead as far as I'm aware. We manufacture a fair few high tech components and we also slot together a few cars but overall its fucked. We don't have the kit or the training.


And yet we have phenomena like Dyson who started making vacuum cleaners from scratch and now has a team of hundreds of engineers in the UK while manufacturing itself is overseas. That alone proves that British companies can produce new manufactured goods and succeed with them even if not all the jobs are here.


----------



## belboid (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> If you could expand on that I would be obliged.


I will get you some good quotage when I'm home from work!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As BS points out, though, this destruction was neither an accident nor a mistake. It was deliberate and served the ends of those who did it - those who are still in charge now.


They are blinkered, it is time we had government that comprehends manufacturing ..


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> They are blinkered, it is time we had government that comprehends manufacturing ..


They're exceedingly rich. That's what they care about.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't know when it changed but I like manufacturing, it is difficult but very rewarding. There is no doubt though that manufacturing is not valued in Britain at the moment and has not been for some time whereas in Germany it remains strong and a large source of their export success story.
> 
> Britain needs a thriving manufacturing industry, it pisses me off endlessly politicians arguing that we are now a service economy. Only because we didn't enable our manufacturing industry to succeed leading to its decline.
> 
> Is Britain's manufacturing sector so damaged it could never recover? or could it given the right environment?




Jesus Welty, where have you been for the past 40 years?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

light manufacture not dead completely. The shoe factories round here, the big ones are largely gone but I've worked for rigid (cardboard boxmakers) corby bottlers (bonded warehouse, wine) Sealed Air (bubblewrap) and Kettering Textiles (rag trade unloading lorries). Tha6ts off the top of my head, I've done loads. Oh yeah, Greggs delivery hub (sacked) and weetabix (good company to work for.)

all of course, non unionised just over min wage agency OF COURSE


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Jesus Welty, where have you been for the past 40 years?


Mainly working in manufacturing


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> And yet we have phenomena like Dyson who started making vacuum cleaners from scratch and now has a team of hundreds of engineers in the UK while manufacturing itself is overseas. That alone proves that British companies can produce new manufactured goods and succeed with them even if not all the jobs are here.



The main problem is the cheap flow of goods, and the fact that currently countries game the carbon issue by outsourcing things to developing nations. When its cheaper to import and make things in China and we can say "look our Carbon footprint is going down" then theres some bollocks going on.


There are a fair few clever people about, always will be but the base for them to build things on is rapidly fading and I doubt we'll have those more of those engineers and inventors coming along in the future.

Look at the rail, used to be we had a vast amount of engineers doing things, fiddling with things. Now we just outsource it and buy our kit from abroad, all that expertise comes from other countries engineers.


----------



## belboid (Jun 2, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> light manufacture not dead completely. The shoe factories round here, the big ones are largely gone but I've worked for rigid (cardboard boxmakers) corby bottlers (bonded warehouse, wine) Sealed Air (bubblewrap) and Kettering Textiles (rag trade unloading lorries). Tha6ts off the top of my head, I've done loads. Oh yeah, Greggs delivery hub (sacked) and weetabix (good company to work for.
> 
> all of course, non unionised just over min wage agency OF COURSE


Stuff so light it would be absurd to have it sent from halfway around the world- even in neoliberal terms


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

We are so far behind Germany where manufacturing is concerned it really saddens me. It is common practice there for an engineer to emerge with his or her doctorate and immediately start a small company based on their specialism. Starting small they get local bank funding and 20 years later are one of the small or middle sized companies which support so much of German industry. I don't see this happening in the UK, a lot is due to local funding as we have discussed here before.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

I can remember some Germans visiting us and deciding to try out a British car. They hired an MG Montego and took it on the motorway. Shortly after they returned it to the hire company because it had torque steer, and they decided it was simply too dangerous.

Then there was a German customer who bought a Jaguar whose top speed was advertised as 155mph. For a week they drove between Munich and Stuttgart and then returned the car to get their money back because on only two days had the car achieved its advertised top speed.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I can remember some Germans visiting us and deciding to try out a British car. They hired an MG Montego and took it on the motorway. Shortly after they returned it to the hire company because it had torque steer, and they decided it was simply too dangerous.
> 
> Then there was a German customer who bought a Jaguar whose top speed was advertised as 155mph. For a week they drove between Munich and Stuttgart and then returned the car to get their money back because on only two days had the car achieved its advertised top speed.




Didn't stop the cunts snapping up Mini, Bentley & Rolls Royce though.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Didn't stop the cunts snapping up Mini, Bentley & Rolls Royce though.


Indeed. And JLR are owned by Tata.

Interesting though that Germany does not really do cheap cars, they focus on quality even now with Skoda. VW even are not cheap wheels.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Indeed. And JLR are owned by Tata.
> 
> Interesting though that Germany does not really do cheap cars, they focus on quality even now with Skoda. VW even are not cheap wheels.


skoda are czech


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> skoda are czech


Owned by VW


----------



## chilango (Jun 2, 2016)

Somebody I was speaking to the other day reckoned that a Brexit vote would simply be ignored and there would be no withdrawal from the EU. 

I could see that happening if the vote was narrow or the turnout was low or any other excuse there could be invalidate the mandate.

After all it's not like people would take to the streets over this.

Would they?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Owned by VW


you say that like you think i give a fuck


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Somebody I was speaking to the other day reckoned that a Brexit vote would simply be ignored and there would be no withdrawal from the EU.
> 
> I could see that happening if the vote was narrow or the turnout was low or any other excuse there could be invalidate the mandate.
> 
> ...


they're going to have to unless they can teleport to the polling stations.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Somebody I was speaking to the other day reckoned that a Brexit vote would simply be ignored and there would be no withdrawal from the EU.




Was it the same person who told Stanley Edwards that you can't OD on smack by any chance?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2016)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Was it the same person who told Stanley Edwards that you can't OD on smack by any chance?


i can understand stan falling for any auld nonsense. but i am disappointed to find chilango doing the same.


----------



## chilango (Jun 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i can understand stan falling for any auld nonsense. but i am disappointed to find chilango doing the same.



I dunno. A 50.6 vs 50.4 result in a sub50 turnout? I wouldn't want to bet on it.

Though personally I reckon it'll be a comfortable 60+ for Remain anyway.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> I dunno. A 50.6 vs 50.4 result in a sub50 turnout? .


That might raise some eyebrows, yes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> I dunno. A 50.6 vs 50.4 result in a sub50 turnout? I wouldn't want to bet on it.
> 
> Though personally I reckon it'll be a comfortable 60+ for Remain anyway.



and we all know they accepted the result despite the 50% turnout and the 50% for and against the proposition


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Somebody I was speaking to the other day reckoned that a Brexit vote would simply be ignored and there would be no withdrawal from the EU.
> 
> I could see that happening if the vote was narrow or the turnout was low or any other excuse there could be invalidate the mandate.
> 
> ...



I might do if they suggest having another one not sure I could stand it(though the idea permanently leaving politicians on buses has some appeal)


----------



## chilango (Jun 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 87996
> and we all know they accepted the result despite the 50% turnout and the 50% for and against the proposition



Fair point.

Though the result was of less importance for Capital tbf.


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That might raise some eyebrows, yes.



At the counts do they have team leaders telling counters to give it more than 100%


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 87996
> and we all know they accepted the result despite the 50% turnout and the 50% for and against the proposition


PC privately thought one bag of postals was dodgy


----------



## chilango (Jun 2, 2016)

Anyway I don't think it _will_ happen, but wouldn't rule it out as an _impossible_ scenario and was interested that it was raised by someone with far more faith in liberal democracy than me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Anyway I don't think it _will_ happen, but wouldn't rule it out as an _impossible_ scenario and was interested that it was raised by someone with far more faith in liberal democracy than me.


You mean more gullible


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> I dunno. A 50.6 vs 50.4 result... I wouldn't want to bet on it.



I would.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Actually it was £148m a day, my mistake.
> 
> Source: HM Government leaflet about the EU Referendum, Thursday, 23rd June 2016.
> 
> ...


Foregn companies? So what does this actually mean once you take the US, japanese, chinese and ME companies out the equation? and as Pickmans says, how much do they take out?
And, more importantly, why should any of this change if we leave?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> Stuff so light it would be absurd to have it sent from halfway around the world- even in neoliberal terms


yes, and with a non unionised agency workforce the saving in labour costs to bring that stuff in from china wouldn't compute.



chilango said:


> Anyway I don't think it _will_ happen, but wouldn't rule it out as an _impossible_ scenario and was interested that it was raised by someone with far more faith in liberal democracy than me.



I think the question would be put to the electorate again, but to completely ignore it and just say fuck you we'll carry on regardless after making such a eureff hoo-haa? political suicide.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I think the question would be put to the electorate again.


Why? Cameron resigns, Johnson takes over as the new pro-Brexit pm. I don't see any scenario in which there is another referendum any time soon, tbh.


----------



## belboid (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why? Cameron resigns, Johnson takes over as the new pro-Brexit pm. I don't see any scenario in which there is another referendum any time soon, tbh.


There does tend to be one when the first goes against the EU


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

belboid said:


> There does tend to be one when the first goes against the EU


Yeah, but this is a little different. It isn't a vote to approve a treaty, which can always be tweaked and presented again.


----------



## chilango (Jun 2, 2016)

Everybody's faith in liberal democracy here is touching.

It simply boils down to how much it matters to capital, and whether capital is sufficiently united on this.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Everybody's faith in liberal democracy here is touching.
> 
> It simply boils down to how much it matters to capital, and whether capital is sufficiently united on this.


No it doesn't. There are political realities to consider. 

It's not a question of faith in liberal democracy. I certainly don't have that - the nature of the choice represented by this referendum demonstrates very clearly how bankrupt it is.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why? Cameron resigns, Johnson takes over as the new pro-Brexit pm. I don't see any scenario in which there is another referendum any time soon, tbh.


Darth May slys in, Jonsons out in the cold. I was just checking and may wants out of the ooman rites stuff cos she got burned by abu hamza case that time. I've always said she's waiting to take the crown 



chilango said:


> Everybody's faith in liberal democracy here is touching.
> 
> It simply boils down to how much it matters to capital, and whether capital is sufficiently united on this.


yes. And the fact is one faction of capitalists, the exiters are holding a smaller stick against the remainers. Thats why the question will be repeated


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 2, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> yes. And the fact is one faction of capitalists, the exiters are holding a smaller stick against the remainers. Thats why the question will be repeated


The same faction - capitalists - will be in charge whatever the result. And we'll have to agree to disagree, I think - there are other considerations, such as the maintenance of the appearance of democracy, to take into account. Plus, there can be a changing of the guard without a fall of government. Cameron out, whoever in, the process of turning an exit from the eu to the maximum advantage of the rich starts in earnest.

To be crystal-clear, this has nothing to do with having faith in the system.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> Somebody I was speaking to the other day reckoned that a Brexit vote would simply be ignored and there would be no withdrawal from the EU.
> 
> I could see that happening if the vote was narrow or the turnout was low or any other excuse there could be invalidate the mandate.
> 
> ...


In the event of an brexit vote there's no way the UK politicians would be able to ignore the result, however slim the majority. The lines have been clearly drawn on tht front.
What the Eu choose to do is a different matter. Juncker was quoted in an interview with Der Siegel yesterday saying that "a deserter is never welcomed back with open arms" (adding his little dig immediately after saying how dignified he is for keeping out of the debate until now - the slippery cunt he is).
This _Deserteur_ labelling is fairly telling, and that's why in the event of an exit vote, its more important to keep an eye on how the Eu commissioners decide to react short term than the governing conservative party. In all likelihood there'll be bribes and threats like the past referendum results elsewhere in the continent. It'll look like they're ignoring democracy, but they're well trained for this scenario and I'd expect them to throw all their resources to scupper a brexit vote. The commission simply can't afford that the UK gets to the point where it defines an exit process, because they know at that point their game's up. Other countries _will_ follow. Most of the Mediterranean/ peripheral states (including France), Holland. 
This is more about their existence than the UKs.
Personally, I can see them getting vindictive, instigating symbolic UK job losses at Airbus, BMW, Thales etc all completly overblown in the media (whilst the same companies are opening factories no end in the US and China currently).
The UK electorate will be left with a blunt choice between accepting democracy or short term financial security and_ that's_ where a brexit result would most likely be ignored - by the public bottling it post brexit referendum.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The same faction - capitalists - will be in charge whatever the result.



And even though a larger % say remain is what they want, they won't be that fussed either way and will ensure the gig is rigged for them to win whatever.

So for us little people it makes no real difference, an out vote will deliver some lols as pig Fucker and Gideot slink off, but the same cunts will be really be running things and throwing us the same scraps.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The same faction - capitalists - will be in charge whatever the result.


differing factions of capitalist. And the ones who are remain have the machinery and the power. The exiteers have enough clout and electoral backing to make this difficult but in the long run I just don't see it.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Foregn companies? So what does this actually mean once you take the US, japanese, chinese and ME companies out the equation? and as Pickmans says, how much do they take out?
> And, more importantly, why should any of this change if we leave?


Why would I want to take those companies out of the equation. Companies like Nissan, Honda, Matsushita who make here for the EU market are what I am talking about. If they have a tariff barrier put between them and their market, it is likely their next investments won't be here.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 2, 2016)

chilango said:


> I dunno. A 50.6 vs 50.4 result in a sub50 turnout? I wouldn't want to bet on it.
> 
> Though personally I reckon it'll be a comfortable 60+ for Remain anyway.


If Leave does win (not likely) I'd put good money on their being a second referendum to ensure "democratic legitimacy". After all Johnson has already said that he'd be in favour of such a strategy.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jun 2, 2016)

I cant see a narrow win for brexit resulting in actual brexit - they will find some way to repeat the exercise - maybe another vote on what sort of Brexit people want that includes an "actually - lets stay" option following some minor tinkering wrt the UK's position in the EU. 
Such a potentially massive change based on a few % points of a vote would be challenged both by the powerful forces of of the establishment that suport remain and from popular opposition - especially in Scotland and Norn Iron.
It will be an absolute cluster fuck. Im tempted to vote "brexit" just for the shit and giggles that would result.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

If there is a vote to leave, Cameron needs shooting!
The whole stupid thing was his idea to keep his ignorant party in line.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 2, 2016)

Well apart from all those other people who were in favour of a referendum


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

Uh oh....







Didn't we have a thread on this sort of thing?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Uh oh....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why is he on sky? what % of voters will be reached by that?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 2, 2016)

he's wet himself


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Why would I want to take those companies out of the equation. Companies like Nissan, Honda, Matsushita who make here for the EU market are what I am talking about. If they have a tariff barrier put between them and their market, it is likely their next investments won't be here.



I explained up-thread how the UK is the Eu's largest export market. Why the fuck would the Eu, after losing one of its few net contributors, then want to penalise their best customer with punitive tariffs? (one's that currently don't exist for other non Eu european trading partners)

If that's the kind of diplomacy and business the Eu wants to conduct, then fuck 'em. Better out.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

two sheds said:


> he's wet himself


the stance of the chalfonts ridden.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> I explained up-thread how the UK is the Eu's largest export market. Why the fuck would the Eu, after losing one of its few net contributors, then want to then penalise their best customer with punitive tariffs? (one's that currently don't exist for other non Eu european trading partners)
> 
> If that's the kind of diplomacy and business the Eu wants to conduct, then fuck 'em. Better out.


Show me a link that confirms the UK is the EU's biggest export market because I think I have seen figures showing it only represents about 3% of EU exports. Whereas the EU represents 40% of the UK's exports.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Why is he on sky? what % of voters will be reached by that?


loads. Nuff people have sky. if I had the money I'd continue to steal via torrents rather than give murdoch any money but loads of people use sky and its a canny demographic to speak to in his terms


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 2, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Show me a link that confirms the UK is the EU's biggest export market because I think I have seen figures showing it only represents about 3% of EU exports.


Yeah, it was me that linked to that 3% figure "spouted" in this Economist article (bear in mind, the Economist is very biased on this vote) where they're obviously trying to debunk the 16% figure being used by team brexit.
The funny bit is, the Econimomist ran an article only 2 months previously contradicting itself by stating a 6.6% figure. 

A bit miffed by this, I crunched the numbers of the official data (links kindly provided by gosub) and the 16% figure checked out!



weltweit said:


> Whereas the EU represents 40% of the UK's exports.


 The 40% figure is total (see the HMRC site) which includes financial services. Above, I'm talking purely about manufactured goods. 
So representing those numbers together is like comparing bent apples with straight bananas.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Yeah, it was me that linked to that 3% figure "spouted" in this Economist article (bear in mind, the Economist is very biased on this vote) where they're obviously trying to debunk the 16% figure being used by team brexit.
> The funny bit is, the Econimomist ran an article only 2 months previously contradicting itself by stating a 6.6% figure.
> 
> A bit miffed by this, I crunched the numbers of the official data (links kindly provided by gosub) and the 16% figure checked out!


2 different figures, economist is quoting the UK exports as a percentage of GDP rather than as a percentage of exports.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> loads. Nuff people have sky. if I had the money I'd continue to steal via torrents rather than give murdoch any money but loads of people use sky and its a canny demographic to speak to in his terms


Sky News is free, isn't it? I can see it & I certainly don't pay Murdoch for the 'privilege'.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 2, 2016)

free spirit said:


> 2 different figures, economist is quoting the UK exports as a percentage of GDP rather than as a percentage of exports.


Which 2 figures from the 3 I mentioned?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 2, 2016)

brogdale said:


> *Sky News is free*, isn't it? I can see it & I certainly don't pay Murdoch for the 'privilege'.


and so we descend into barbarism


----------



## brogdale (Jun 2, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> and so we descend into barbarism


----------



## free spirit (Jun 2, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Which 2 figures from the 3 I mentioned?


the 2 that were originally being queried, 16% vs 3%.

16% is exports to UK as percentage of exports, 3% is exports to UK as percentage of GDP


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 2, 2016)

free spirit said:


> the 2 that were originally being queried, 16% vs 3%.
> 
> 16% is exports to UK as percentage of exports, 3% is exports to UK as percentage of GDP


OK Cheers, so the 6.6% figure from the economist is the real one to compare to the 16% one from that brexit site? (total export %)
I still cant see how they come up with 6.6% though, and either way, the numbers from the Eu still makes us the EUs biggest export destination (with >16% of total)


----------



## gosub (Jun 2, 2016)

Some out moded concepts of manufacture here,  firstly more cars assembled in UK than ever, second they are assembled from bits made all over the place barriers to that trade hurt quickly of you actually look at the quality of the bits.  Cars come up cos thats the prime import export interaction,  only two EU nations do we have a trade deficit with  Germany top.   It's France pushing for reprisals
Oh and stuff we send to Rotherham or A twerp to go out on bigger container ships to the rest of the world count as UK exports to Belgium or Holland.  and global exports for Holland or Belgium


----------



## gosub (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Like leaving but not leaving?




To Joe soap sat in Brixton is probably like not leaving but we'd be out of CAP (transition needs managing)  and CFP, the way we chip money in changes with about 40% to be directly invested in poorer states,  and our seats on global governance reflect UK position not common EU one. Not in European Parliament,  but a lot of the rest of the stuff is a la carte but would probably be the same.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 3, 2016)




----------



## The Boy (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm certainly scared of that cunt's shorts.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 3, 2016)

two sheds said:


>



His shorts are defo 100% European!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 3, 2016)

two sheds said:


>


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Gove on Sky News...pretty crap, really.


----------



## gosub (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Gove on Sky News...pretty crap, really.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Gove on Sky News...pretty crap, really.



Expecting anything other than crap?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 3, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Expecting anything other than crap?


He's not stupid, but he was saying some pretty stupid stuff.
Problem is, where I am atm, I'm just very wary of anyone who claims to have a firm view on this...either way...let alone a zealot like Gove.


----------



## gosub (Jun 3, 2016)

brogdale said:


> He's not stupid, but he was saying some pretty stupid stuff.
> Problem is, where I am atm, I'm just very wary of anyone who claims to have a firm view on this...either way...let alone a zealot like Gove.



if you start by building from what's realisitically possible, you end up in a very different place from where the mainstream debate is....the in single market that was in your 4 options HMG set out, isn't even being modelled in the forecasts any more. You listen to remain and see how many times you could actually swap EEA for EU.


And I think I've worked out why the fix is in. An EEA member rather than an EU member couldn't complete the single market for (financial) services.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 3, 2016)

In the same boat as Boris then, not stupid but dangerous, but coming out with stupid stuff.


----------



## gosub (Jun 3, 2016)

gosub said:


> if you start by building from what's realisitically possible, you end up in a very different place from where the mainstream debate is....the in single market that was in your 4 options HMG set out, isn't even being modelled in the forecasts any more. You listen to remain and see how many times you could actually swap EEA for EU.
> 
> 
> And I think I've worked out why the fix is in. An EEA member rather than an EU member couldn't complete the single market for (financial) services.


Hate talking to myself,  but that completing the services single market  same package as TTIP Reality Check: Would the single market for services create 800,000 jobs? - BBC News


----------



## 2hats (Jun 4, 2016)

brogdale said:


>


----------



## teqniq (Jun 4, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Gove on Sky News...pretty crap, really.


Is this where he said “invincible arrogance of Europe’s elites”, if so nevermind that he considers himself very much part of the UK establishment elite eh?


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Jun 4, 2016)

For Gove to credibly steal left wing clothes & spout the 'neolibs are the enemy' mantra he needs leave the Tory party & start a far left socialist party using only his own money.


----------



## gosub (Jun 4, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Remind me again, why are we having this referendum, why and why now? oh yes, it was because Cameron wanted to keep his divided party united before a general election! Stupid idea!



I am beginning to supect, efforts to formalise single market for services stalled and won't get going again without an IN vote.  Once sorted, then they accept pull back to associate membership along lines of EFTA.   Thing is heathcare and health insurance are service industries...


----------



## youngian (Jun 6, 2016)

SaskiaJayne said:


> For Gove to credibly steal left wing clothes & spout the 'neolibs are the enemy' mantra he needs leave the Tory party & start a far left socialist party using only his own money.


And this duplicitous worm who opposed the minimum wage wants us to blame EU workers for poor pay.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 6, 2016)

TUC (in) and TUSC (out) perspectives on EU and workers...
Is the European Union good or bad for British workers? | Frances O’Grady and Enrico Tortolano


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2016)

What's happening here?

Labour is urged to sack Gordon Brown's old spin doctor over claims he secretly helped Leave



> Labour had been urged to sack Damian McBride, Gordon Brown’s controversial former spin doctor, over allegations that he has been secretly helping the Leave campaign.
> 
> Mr McBride, who now works for shadow Defence SecretaryEmily Thornberry, accidentally posted a private message on Twitter that appeared to show him advising Tory cabinet minister Michael Gove.
> 
> The spin doctor, who was sacked by Mr Brown, posted the message which read: “V good! BTW, I'll email you another VAT-related idea this evening. Just in case there's a day/interview where MG is looking for a new line.”


----------



## belboid (Jun 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What's happening here?
> 
> Labour is urged to sack Gordon Brown's old spin doctor over claims he secretly helped Leave


Wtf is he doing working for thornberry??


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 6, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> TUC (in) and TUSC (out) perspectives on EU and workers...
> Is the European Union good or bad for British workers? | Frances O’Grady and Enrico Tortolano



What a palava!


----------



## J Ed (Jun 6, 2016)

Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision



> One possibility for pro-Europeans would be to insert a clause demanding a second referendum on the terms of the renegotiation, or to run a guerrilla campaign to minimise the number of EU laws from which the UK would withdraw. One pro-European MP said: “We would have to respect the mandate of the referendum, but there is still plenty of scope on how and when we quit the EU."



If there is a leave vote there is no way we aren't having a second referendum imo.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What's happening here?
> 
> Labour is urged to sack Gordon Brown's old spin doctor over claims he secretly helped Leave



Meaningless none story


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Meaningless none story


Is it? Someone that Corbyn specifically allowed back into labour centre after her own dodgy history employing a dodgy cunt who then gets up to dodgy stuff that goes against the message of corbyn and his employer in collusion with a direct enemy? There's a story there if you want it.


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Pro-EU MPs could stage guerrilla campaign to reverse Brexit decision
> 
> 
> 
> If there is a leave vote there is no way we aren't having a second referendum imo.


If there is a remain vote,  hard to see the issues currently within the EU being resolved without a new treaty - complete with referendum lock..


----------



## teqniq (Jun 6, 2016)




----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2016)

teqniq said:


>



March 2015.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 6, 2016)

Proper dog whistle shit from the Brexiters, and if some of the polls are to be believed it may be working

This is about to become the most controversial map in Britain



> The official Brexit campaign group has been accused of “fanning the flames of division” after publishing a map highlighting how the EU will a share a border with Syria if Turkey gains membership....


----------



## Wilf (Jun 6, 2016)

Even with leave ahead in most of the polls - and now the poll of polls - I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of a Brexit vote.  However its looking less and less like Remain will get a 10%+ victory.  Anything around 53-47 or even closer is disastrous for the tories, leading to allegations that the vote was swung by Treasury and 'establishment' lies.  I still can't see the vote having much major long time impact on real class struggle, but it will probably allow Brexit Tories to start painting themselves as 'outsiders'.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 7, 2016)

....watched about an hour into this and its quite entertaining......

The 1975 Referendum Result

...Yes steam-rolling the No vote by 70:30 with Jack Jones ( at 50m :40 ) bemoaning to Robin Day the Pro campaign's doom laden warnings of economic disaster, mahoosive job losses and a "siege economy" for failing to toe the line....

the most surprising aspect to 2016 eyes - aside from some of the hair styles and lurid ties - was the dramatic change in political geography evident with Lincolnshire the most Pro area counted at that point on 75% whilst the least pro were all Scottish...cant see Lincs leading the country in euro-enthusiasm this time round...


----------



## J Ed (Jun 7, 2016)

That is interesting, why was Lincolnshire so pro in 1975?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 7, 2016)

J Ed said:


> That is interesting, why was Lincolnshire so pro in 1975?


Thinking they might benefit from the CAP?  Suffolk is also high


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 7, 2016)

...not heard anything on that - but alot of generalised waffle about the "middle class" Pro vote & attendant high turn outs ( 71% in Richmond vs 47% in Tower Hamlets )....Northern Ireland was outer Siberia about which they didn't seem to have much of a clue...


----------



## bluescreen (Jun 7, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Thinking they might benefit from the CAP?  Suffolk is also high


Lincs arable farmers were already benefiting from the CAP as UK was already in the EEC at that point. IIRC, the policy favoured the large farmers: these were the years of hedge-ripping and prairies.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 7, 2016)

J Ed said:


> That is interesting, why was Lincolnshire so pro in 1975?


With the tory party almost completely united behind their, then newly elected, pro-EEC leader, (>90% tory MPs were 'Yes'), the 1975 results were much more of a surrogate of how traditionally tory the various counties were....hence the very high 'Yes' votes in N.Yorks, W.Sussex, Surrey, Lincs.,E.Sussex, Bucks etc.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 7, 2016)

J Ed said:


> That is interesting, why was Lincolnshire so pro in 1975?


Was a rumour they were going to legalise marrying a turnip. ANOTHER BROKEN PROMISE JACQUES DELORS!


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 7, 2016)

*Brexit The Mixtape*


----------



## teqniq (Jun 7, 2016)

I had an email purportedly from Alan Johnson this evening saying that Cardiff West is one of the crucial constituencies in respect of Labour supporters referendum vote and would I like to speak to someone to help me make my mind up. Fuck off Alan.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 7, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I had an email purportedly from Alan Johnson this evening saying that Cardiff West is one of the crucial constituencies in respect of Labour supporters referendum vote and would I like to speak to someone to help me make my mind up. Fuck off Alan.


You should have invited him to come round yours personally so you could tell the cunt to fuck off to his face.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 7, 2016)




----------



## brogdale (Jun 7, 2016)

> Cameron v Farage - Snap verdict
> Cameron v Farage - Snap verdict: Overall, that felt like *a relatively anaemic non-encounter that was short on memorable moments and which will have little overall impact on the campaign.*


That sounds like a really good use of 1 hour of ITV's peak time!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 7, 2016)

Hmm, I would have been interested to watch that ..

/Never looks at the tv times
/or the tv much either


----------



## teqniq (Jun 7, 2016)

i didn't watch it but Rachel Shabi did, methinks she is distinctly unimpressed


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 8, 2016)

teqniq said:


> I had an email purportedly from Alan Johnson this evening saying that Cardiff West is one of the crucial constituencies in respect of Labour supporters referendum vote and would I like to speak to someone to help me make my mind up. Fuck off Alan.



There are no constituencies for this thing


----------



## teqniq (Jun 8, 2016)

Areas then. I cannot remember the precise wording and I've deleted the email. Does it _really_ matter?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 8, 2016)

Apparently the website for registering to vote crashed last night due to over demand and there are requests this morning for it to stay open for another 24 hours.


----------



## newbie (Jun 8, 2016)

this is urban, every detail matters, matters, matters.  How else is existence justified?

More to the point, I did not get an email from Alan, so clearly I don't live anywhere crucial.  that upsets me so much I'm joining UKIP.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 8, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Areas then. I cannot remember the precise wording and I've deleted the email. *Does it really matter?*


Obviously Alan thought so, though presumably he's not emailed you about the NHS, the Housing act, the Trades Unions bill.....


----------



## teqniq (Jun 8, 2016)

No, what I'm saying is I cannot remember exactly what wording was used. I may have used 'constituency' mistakenly. If i get another one I'll post it up here and then everyone can peruse it at their leisure.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 8, 2016)

Anyway it's kinda laughable. They obviously have me down as a 'Labour supporter' even though they wouldn't let me join as an affiliate member, pre the election of Corbyn on the most flimsiest contradictory made-up bollox imaginable, something for which I am now very grateful for.


----------



## gosub (Jun 8, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Areas then. I cannot remember the precise wording and I've deleted the email. Does it _really_ matter?



Does seem a bit peculiar, could matter as a Welsh vote if there the results of the Celtic regions are different to England I suppose, but smacks of being stuck in a election spiel mode rather than  referendum thinking.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 8, 2016)

RMT view:

*What are the main reasons for leaving?*

The EU represents an existential threat to public services. Ever since the 1986 Single European Act inaugurated the single market (“the Thatcherisation of Europe” in the words of the then young Tory hooray, John Bercow) the incremental liberalisation of essential public services has spread from transport, to postal services. Now the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) marks the full emergence of a corporate dominance over the public sector including education, housing and health services. If you want to prevent privatisation of schools, council housing and the NHS: vote to leave the EU.

...

*So would it be possible for the railways to be renationalised under a Labour government?*

Yes, the policy of rail renationalisation in Britain is simple, achievable and realistic. But only in defiance of EU directives on rail transport. In 2006 the French rail company SNCF was fined  600 million for failing to open its freight sector to private competition. In reality, rail renationalisation is not achievable while Britain remains a member state of the EU.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jun 8, 2016)

Are the RMT still supporting CAEF?  The historically Stalinist dominated " CampaignAgainst Euro Federalism"
I ask because it has come to my attention that they are hosting a conference of "Euro Critical movements and parties before the referendum (Saturday 11th at FMH, Euston) which includes some eyebrow raising right wing voices. In a rather hysterical email urging support for the event the CAEF leader (Boyd?) appealed for support to combat " SWP thugs" who are poised to intervene.  I kid you not.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 8, 2016)

Local trivia corner : Rachel Shabi (Twitter quotes above) was a very very long time ago an Urban contributor. Under a different name .... she was sound as a poster back then AFAICR. Nice in person too


----------



## coley (Jun 9, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Is this where he said “invincible arrogance of Europe’s elites”, if so nevermind that he considers himself very much part of the UK establishment elite eh?



Aye, but hypocrite he may be,but he is spot on with that remark, fuck the IMF, World bank et al, all those elitist  bastards who are currently being scared shitless by the thought of the general public actually having the power to disrupt their complacent quasi dictatorship. Fuck em, vote out


----------



## laptop (Jun 9, 2016)

Voting out affects the power of the IMF how?


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2016)

laptop said:


> Voting out affects the power of the IMF how?


They get barred from Weatherspoons


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)




----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


>



Hilarious!
One dodgy 'fact' from her side and suddenly she's remainarian!
Doesn't reflect well on her political intellect or integrity.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Hilarious!
> One dodgy 'fact' from her side and suddenly she's remainarian!
> Doesn't reflect well on her political intellect or integrity.



tbf She has publicly tried to distance herself from 350mil for the NHS bullshit for some time.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 9, 2016)

I reckon both sides will have planted a few switchers in the other camp.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

gosub said:


> tbf She has publicly tried to distance herself from 350mil for the NHS bullshit for some time.


Yeah, but for that _*one thing*_ to be cited as the Damascene conversion seems well dodge. As butchersapron said above, looks like a plant.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Hilarious!
> Doesn't reflect well on her political intellect or integrity.



Integrity has been absent from the conscience of British politicians since the passing of Lilburne and Rainsborough.


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

so she makes herself look primetime stupid?  What's in it for her? She's made herself look ridiculous- and as an immediate reaction had her integrity questioned.

Her ideological commitment to the cause would have to be both huge and longstanding to become a sleeper.  Does it help her career in some way, make her appear trustworthy and her judgement sound to her colleagues or constituents?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 9, 2016)

I like the idea that a Tory mp is just madly passionate about the NHS, and is willing to overlook all the lies about it and damage done to it up until someone in the EU leave campaign says something not true about it and then it is at that point that you suddenly say 'enough'. Whatever is going on here, it isn't principled.


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I like the idea that a Tory mp is just madly passionate about the NHS, and is willing to overlook all the lies about it and damage done to it up until someone in the EU leave campaign says something not true about it and then it is at that point that you suddenly say 'enough'. Whatever is going on here, it isn't principled.



she's a tory mp.  Her principles are miles adrift from what you or I might recognise but let's be honest, many of them are in the process of detonating their political ambitions over their principles.  Some have done it in the past, Clarke, Heseltine and Redwood spring to mind.  



> “For someone like me who has long campaigned for open and honest data in public life I could not have set foot on a battle bus that has at the heart of its campaign a figure that I know to be untrue,” said Wollaston, who is a former GP. “If you’re in a position where you can’t hand out a Vote Leave leaflet, you can’t be campaigning for that organisation.”



In making herself look foolish and lacking judgement she's effectively called into question the integrity of every MP & campaigner who doesn't disown the 350m figure, which is still in your face at the top of the Vote Leave website.  A brief search hasn't revealed any fact check type website that endorses it.  They're the ones who are lying, and she's called them on it.  If she is a sleeper she's pulled the trigger.


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

And then there's the possibility that the headline is a bit of gross oversimplification of her position in order to look more dramatic and attention grabbing.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, but for that _*one thing*_ to be cited as the Damascene conversion seems well dodge. As butchersapron said above, looks like a plant.



TBF:  If I was basing my vote on the official campaigns I think I'd be remain.  Both have been appalling and avoided the realities, though Leave seems to be about the harnessing of hate-not a look I think should be encouraged in politics.

Biggest flaw in the argument of returning sovereignty is the point is limited if you are returning power to a bunch of twats.  
Squandered opportunity.	Low oil price, minimal majority , massive trade deficit, limited scope for interest rate rises....Was a perfect chance to get ahead of the curve.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 9, 2016)

...obviously can't read alot into this but intriguing nonetheless - esp in light of Lord Hayward's intervention


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...obviously can't read alot into this but intriguing nonetheless - esp in light of Lord Hayward's intervention
> 
> View attachment 88244


No surprise, (if true), given the traditional demographics of the PV.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

gosub said:


> TBF:  If I was basing my vote on the official campaigns I think I'd be remain.  Both have been appalling and avoided the realities, though Leave seems to be about the harnessing of hate-not a look I think should be encouraged in politics.
> 
> Biggest flaw in the argument of returning sovereignty is the point is limited if you are returning power to a bunch of twats.
> Squandered opportunity.	Low oil price, minimal majority , massive trade deficit, limited scope for interest rate rises....Was a perfect chance to get ahead of the curve.


IMO, the biggest flaw in any argument about the locus of sovereignty is the assumption that it is held by elected representatives, be they national or supra-national. The whole dissembling distraction offers a convenient vehicle for false consciousness expressed most commonly as "IWMCB".


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> IMO, the biggest flaw in any argument about the locus of sovereignty is the assumption that it is held by elected representatives, be they national or supra-national. The whole dissembling distraction offers a convenient vehicle for false consciousness expressed most commonly as "IWMCB".


Yeh well iwmcb but the only way that will happen is with the sudden deaths of the political class.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> IMO, the biggest flaw in any argument about the locus of sovereignty is the assumption that it is held by elected representatives, be they national or supra-national. The whole dissembling distraction offers a convenient vehicle for false consciousness expressed most commonly as "IWMCB".


Its not held by elected representatives in the main, more vetted by elected representatives.  They would have greater scope for action and more transparency without the EU middle man. - I presume, a detailed break down on the effect on leverage at global governance can't happen if you are pretending it isn't there.  There's an almost fractal symmetry at the mo from district councils up all the way to nation states - its always the tier immediately above (or below) that's the problem, the relationship with everything two or more above is all tickety boo.  Saw it in the Scots referendum, seeing it in the potential break-up of Hampshire , and in spades in the EU referendum


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh well iwmcb but the only way that will happen is with the sudden deaths of the political class.


It is a incredibly successful political phrase,(meme/sound-bite), though; I find it hard to recall a broadcast vox pop in which it hasn't figured. I suppose it's strength and popularity relate to its broad-brush, almost vacuous appeal to those not willing or able to invest much thought into the decision before them. It also taps into  officially sanctioned, permissible notions of patriotism...particularly to demographic cohorts that have heard first-hand from older relatives about their part in saving this country from foreign powers. For others I'd imagine that the word "back" offers another clue to the phrase's appeal to those nostalgic for 'warm beer, cricket and district nurses on bicycles'. Obviously for some it's a mantra that also allows for a politically accectable expression of xenophobia, if not outright racism.
Clever stuff.


----------



## chilango (Jun 9, 2016)

IWCMB?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

chilango said:


> IWCMB?


_*"I w*ant *m*y *c*ountry *b*ack"_


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

IWMCB has to be a statement that *you are a little Englander!*

I don't "want my country back", I am comfortable that "my country" (is it really theirs in the first place?) is cooperating and collaborating with its neighbours and less likely as a result to get into catastrophic conflicts of all sorts of kinds ..

I like collaborating with neighbouring countries and think we should be doing more of it not less!


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 9, 2016)

gosub said:


> seeing it in the potential break-up of Hampshire



 Is there a New Forest secessionist movement or something?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 9, 2016)

I honestly don't think a vote for Leave will magically give us our power back or a say in the country. We are balls deep in the globalised society and thats not going to change, someone will tell the government want to do and it won't be you or me.

At least in the EU theres a slightly higher chance of bargaining and judging by a few of the protests around we might be able to make a difference to what the EU says. Going it alone just means we'll be run roughshod over by the US or China.


Then theres the fact I just don't trust the Conservatives or Labour


----------



## chilango (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> _*"I w*ant *m*y *c*ountry *b*ack"_



Ta.

They can keep mine.

I want a different one.


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Is there a New Forest secessionist movement or something?



They want a North part and South part Unitary Authority


----------



## chilango (Jun 9, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Is there a New Forest secessionist movement or something?



Wessex Regionalists


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

chilango said:


> Ta.
> 
> They can keep mine.
> 
> I want a different one.


Yep...and I'd add to my little list above that is obviously a phrase that fits the needs of any people that hold some ill-defined notions that they have somehow lost out from the 'modern world'/been 'left behind'. For those ignorant(in the true sense) of the the real forces shaping their country's economy...it is an easily digestible, safe phrase to express when asked why the favour 'leave'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It is a incredibly successful political phrase,(meme/sound-bite), though; I find it hard to recall a broadcast vox pop in which it hasn't figured. I suppose it's strength and popularity relate to its broad-brush, almost vacuous appeal to those not willing or able to invest much thought into the decision before them. It also taps into  officially sanctioned, permissible notions of patriotism...particularly to demographic cohorts that have heard first-hand from older relatives about their part in saving this country from foreign powers. For others I'd imagine that the word "back" offers another clue to the phrase's appeal to those nostalgic for 'warm beer, cricket and district nurses on bicycles'. Obviously for some it's a mantra that also allows for a politically accectable expression of xenophobia, if not outright racism.
> Clever stuff.


Yes, I am nostalgic for district nurses on bicycles  but more nostalgic for them off them


----------



## Sue (Jun 9, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, I am nostalgic for district nurses on bicycles  but more nostalgic for them off them



Did you spend your formative years lusting over Nerys Hughes..?

The District Nurse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## gosub (Jun 9, 2016)

chilango said:


> Wessex Regionalists


That's a different less likely to happen thing


----------



## brogdale (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> *IWMCB has to be a statement that *you are a little Englander!**



To some extent, an observation unsurprisingly borne out by polling evidence*...







*unable to verify the polling source as it's behind Murdoch's £wall.


----------



## chilango (Jun 9, 2016)

brogdale said:


> To some extent, an observation unsurprisingly borne out by polling evidence*...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YouGov was asking me this stuff the other day, so probably them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2016)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Are the RMT still supporting CAEF?  The historically Stalinist dominated " CampaignAgainst Euro Federalism"
> I ask because it has come to my attention that they are hosting a conference of "Euro Critical movements and parties before the referendum (Saturday 11th at FMH, Euston) which includes some eyebrow raising right wing voices. In a rather hysterical email urging support for the event the CAEF leader (Boyd?) appealed for support to combat " SWP thugs" who are poised to intervene.  I kid you not.



The Swappies have very few thugs, just some lardy middle-aged _faux_-working class hard-man _manques_ who think they're a bit tasty, but shit their breeks if it looks like anything might actually kick off.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 9, 2016)

Second string leaveloons mounting a legal challenge to the voter registration extension:
Leave.EU may challenge extension of voter registration deadline
It's a politically inept thing to do, but they do have a point (about Cameron only doing this to get to boost the remain vote).


----------



## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Second string leaveloons mounting a legal challenge to the voter registration extension:
> Leave.EU may challenge extension of voter registration deadline
> It's a politically inept thing to do, but they do have a point (about Cameron only doing this to get to boost the remain vote).



I think its a pretty ugly look.  It looks like they are trying to deny people representation for their own benefit.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 9, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> I honestly don't think a vote for Leave will magically give us our power back or a say in the country. We are balls deep in the globalised society and thats not going to change, someone will tell the government want to do and it won't be you or me.
> 
> At least in the EU theres a slightly higher chance of bargaining and judging by a few of the protests around we might be able to make a difference to what the EU says. Going it alone just means we'll be run roughshod over by the US or China.
> 
> ...



Who is the 'we' in this post? Who are we bargaining against and for what are we bargaining?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 9, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Who is the 'we' in this post? Who are we bargaining against and for what are we bargaining?



Anyone not already in power/government circles


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 9, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Anyone not already in power/government circles



How will anyone "not already in power/government circles" bargain against globalisation via the EU?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 9, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How will anyone "not already in power/government circles" bargain against globalisation via the EU?



As a collection of states the EU has more of a voice internationally. As has been seen there is a collective undercurrent that has managed to delay and get members of the EU to delay or demand inquiries to treaties such as TTIP or to threaten vetos.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 9, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> As a collection of states the EU has more of a voice internationally. As has been seen there is a collective undercurrent that has managed to delay and get members of the EU to delay or demand inquiries to treaties such as TTIP or to threaten vetos.



Still not sure I follow. "A collection of states" is surely the very definition of being in power/government circles. Anyway, what on earth is a "collective undercurrent"?


----------



## Wilf (Jun 9, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> . Going it alone just means we'll be run roughshod over by the US or China.


Who was it (along with the IMF) ran roughshod over Greece?


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Who was it (along with the IMF) ran roughshod over Greece?



And Spain,

And who are currently demanding France reform their labour laws which has resulted in the mass strike action.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 9, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> what on earth is a "collective undercurrent"?



...one of these


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...one of these



Which is great, except...




			
				BBC said:
			
		

> The German government supports the trade pact, with Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel warning of "scaremongering" in a letter published in several German newspapers.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 9, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...one of these



And this is an argument _for_ the EU in what sense?


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

And the commissions response to France's concerns over it, and the leaked negotiations/texts by Greenpeace?



			
				Guardian said:
			
		

> The European commission, which leads negotiations on behalf of the EU, dismissed the “alarmist headlines” as “a storm in a teacup”.



The EU and commission will ultimately 'ride roughshod' over member states that don't fall into line.


----------



## laptop (Jun 9, 2016)

Teaboy said:


> I think its a pretty ugly look.  It looks like they are trying to deny people representation for their own benefit.


These young people will destroy Everything We Stand For!!!


----------



## laptop (Jun 9, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Who was it (along with the IMF) ran roughshod over Greece?


Again: The Commission's failing was that it *failed to protect Greece from the IMF*


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> And the commissions response to France's concerns over it, and the leaked negotiations/texts by Greenpeace?
> 
> 
> The EU and commission will ultimately 'ride roughshod' over member states that don't fall into line.


I'm not sure I follow.  The link says "All 28 EU member states and the European parliament will have to ratify TTIP before it comes into force." That's pretty much the opposite of what you've asserted.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

newbie said:


> I'm not sure I follow.  The link says "All 28 EU member states and the European parliament will have to ratify TTIP before it comes into force." That's pretty much the opposite of what you've asserted.



Because I think that member states will bow to immense pressure from the EU to ratify.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

laptop said:


> Again: The Commission's failing was that it *failed to protect Greece from the IMF*



Why would the commission 'protect' Greece when the EU/ECB/IMF have all been invested in imposing austerity, deregulation, selloffs of assets in return for bailouts?

As for protecting Greece from the IMF, even the IMF is starting to refuse to part-lend for bailout until the EU gives 'unconditional debt relief'.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 9, 2016)

laptop said:


> Again: The Commission's failing was that it *failed to protect Greece from the IMF*


Really? You just think the EU sat by and did nothing? They didn't play an active role in the process?


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Because I think that member states will bow to immense pressure from the EU to ratify.


From the link you provided “There cannot be an agreement without France and much less against France.”  That seems clear.	

I accept that if 27 of 28 countries are strongly in favour it will take formidable politicians to resist. That majority is not a foregone conclusion and anyway history shows that standing against the majority is not impossible, Thatcher got concessions at Maastricht, the French blew up the EU Constitution, the Irish could have destroyed the Lisbon treaty.  

What is this 'EU' that piles on the pressure?


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

newbie said:


> From the link you provided “There cannot be an agreement without France and much less against France.”  That seems clear.
> 
> I accept that if 27 of 28 countries are strongly in favour it will take formidable politicians to resist. That majority is not a foregone conclusion and anyway history shows that standing against the majority is not impossible, Thatcher got concessions at Maastricht, the French blew up the EU Constitution, the Irish could have destroyed the Lisbon treaty.



I hope you're right, I really do.


newbie said:


> What is this 'EU' that piles on the pressure?



Because that's what it does - as we've seen, whether it be demanding reforms on member states economies and industries, deregulation, more competition, ensuring fiscal controls otherwise...


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I hope you're right, I really do.
> 
> 
> Because that's what it does - as we've seen, whether it be demanding reforms on member states economies and industries, deregulation, more competition, ensuring fiscal controls otherwise...


Again, what is 'it'?  Are you implying some sort of monolithic power with a distinct agenda?


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 9, 2016)

I admit this cover made me smile though.


----------



## hipipol (Jun 9, 2016)

Don't think Cameron expected the outright win - he gave the promise of a vote as a sop to his most reactionary scumsters cos he had seen what they did to Major - "The Bastards" as the Maj memorably named them - then when returned to coalition he could blame the lack of poll on the Lib Dems. As for now the best thing is that Boris has shot his bolt and as of now seems to have seriously fucked up - good


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> I admit this cover made me smile though.
> 
> View attachment 88258


that's awful in _so _many ways


----------



## killer b (Jun 9, 2016)

hipipol said:


> As for now the best thing is that Boris has shot his bolt and as of now seems to have seriously fucked up - good


Yeah, he's still the bookies favourite for next PM and the most popular politician in the country. Totally fucked up.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 9, 2016)

Really???  I was rather hoping that the whole referendum thing would have shown him up to most people as the nasty xenophobic piece of shit that he is.


----------



## killer b (Jun 9, 2016)

Who said it hasn't?


----------



## hipipol (Jun 9, 2016)

killer b said:


> Yeah, he's still the bookies favourite for next PM and the most popular politician in the country. Totally fucked up.


The Bookies also came down on the side of continued coalition after the last Gen Elec I think the Hitler guff combined with his love of the Roman Empire might tip the balance


----------



## teqniq (Jun 9, 2016)

killer b said:


> Who said it hasn't?



The bookies? Who after all base their calculations in matters such as these on what they perceive as public opinion. If after all's said and done if the majority of people in the UK _still_ want him as the next PM then there is no hope.


----------



## killer b (Jun 9, 2016)

The majority of people in the UK don't want him as next PM. You don't actually have to be that popular to be the most popular politician in the country - we're starting from a very low base.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 9, 2016)

hipipol said:


> As for now the best thing is that Boris has shot his bolt and as of now seems to have seriously fucked up - good



Does appear so. I thought it an odd thing for him to do at first, but I can see the logic in it now. Cameron standing down at the next election creates a rather unique situation - a government at an election with a sitting PM who isn't fighting the election to continue as PM. I can't see how that could possibly work except with a succession already worked out - ie you campaign with your new PM-elect named. And that would mean NOT BORIS. Whoever it is - Osborne presumably - it's just not going to be Johnson. So that means Johnson not becoming PM until 2025 at the very earliest. 

So await a chance that isn't going to come for at least nearly a decade, or have a punt at getting it this year. Even if he calculated that it was odds-against, he may have thought it worth it. He may also have an ego big enough to think that his endorsement would sway the vote. 

Let's hope he becomes bitter over the coming years.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 9, 2016)

what's the odds on a Labour/SNP coalition with Sturgeon as PM?


----------



## killer b (Jun 9, 2016)

Sturgeon isn't an MP, so I'd imagine you could get fantastic odds on that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 9, 2016)

Sprocket. said:


> what's the odds on a Labour/SNP coalition with Sturgeon as PM?


Er 0 chance. How could that happen?


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 9, 2016)

It was a joke!


----------



## agricola (Jun 9, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Does appear so. I thought it an odd thing for him to do at first, but I can see the logic in it now. Cameron standing down at the next election creates a rather unique situation - a government at an election with a sitting PM who isn't fighting the election to continue as PM. I can't see how that could possibly work except with a succession already worked out - ie you campaign with your new PM-elect named. And that would mean NOT BORIS. Whoever it is - Osborne presumably - it's just not going to be Johnson. So that means Johnson not becoming PM until 2025 at the very earliest.
> 
> So await a chance that isn't going to come for at least nearly a decade, or have a punt at getting it this year. Even if he calculated that it was odds-against, he may have thought it worth it. He may also have an ego big enough to think that his endorsement would sway the vote.
> 
> Let's hope he becomes bitter over the coming years.



It isn't going to be Osborne either; he is probably as widely disliked as Cameron is and has far less of his charm.  It will be Johnson (especially if Leave wins), or more likely the recently invisible Theresa May.


----------



## killer b (Jun 9, 2016)

Osborne _has_ fucked it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 9, 2016)

killer b said:


> Osborne _has_ fucked it.



Made a pig's ear of it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 9, 2016)

agricola said:


> It isn't going to be Osborne either; he is probably as widely disliked as Cameron is and has far less of his charm.  It will be Johnson (especially if Leave wins), or more likely the recently invisible Theresa May.


If Cameron survives to 2020, I don't see how it can possibly be Johnson. He's not even in government, and isn't likely to be any time soon, assuming a remain vote.


----------



## killer b (Jun 9, 2016)

I don't know if you've been watching politics lately, but the old rules don't seem to apply anymore.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 9, 2016)

killer b said:


> I don't know if you've been watching politics lately, but the old rules don't seem to apply anymore.


This isn't really about old rules, more about new ones - a sitting PM standing down at an election. Hasn't happened since 1970 - don't know if it has ever happened - but there are certain ways it can't happen - for instance, a govt cannot go into an election without stating who they will have as the next PM if they are re-elected. 

A lot can happen in four years. Johnson could be drafted into a top cabinet spot in time for him to replace Cameron. But a lot would have to happen for that to be possible.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

newbie said:


> Again, what is 'it'?  Are you implying some sort of monolithic power with a distinct agenda?



I'm not saying that 'it' (central institutions of the EU) are monolithic, but the reality is that because they are wholly invested in the pursuing of neoliberalism and capital and opening up of markets, then being a member state of the EU means that (and regardless of the diversity/politics of those member states),  the outcome for member states is essentially going to be controls on those members in some of the ways mentioned above. And its precisely what we're seeing despite the constant hard talk of member state leaders 'going to win concessions' (yeah, that usually goes well) or the 'but we can change the EU from within' optimism from 'progressive' European groups.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

I can't muster any more on this debate/thread for now, I've had enough disagreements with friends and colleagues this last week, I'm sick of it all. Especially one friend who onetime radical and had a really critical class/capital analysis (and whom has taught me a lot the last few years) has seemingly retreated into a 'but never mind the neoliberalism of the EU project and the shit stuff its enacting against worker rights and member states COZ exit means bad TORIES!'. Is this really it?! Is this really all there is?!


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

There is a debate on ITV atm with Sturgeon and Johnson among others .


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

Cor, the ITV player sucks, it keeps repeating things!


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

Take back control...take back our borders...take back our economy...take back control...take back control

Do you think they've got a key sound bite?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

belboid said:


> Do you think they've got a key sound bite?


Yes it is starting to piss me off too


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Cor, the ITV player sucks, it keeps repeating things!



Being in Scotland I've got to watch the STV player, which managed about 1 minute in every 3 for the first half hour. Keeps buffering and randomly inserting station idents.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 9, 2016)

Resistance is futile! 

I've put a grin in case people think I'm being serious.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

I like Angela Eagle the more I see the more I like.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I like Angela Eagle the more I see the more I like.



No doubt we'll have a million thinkpieces tomorrow from liberal journos saying that she is poised to replace Corbyn or lamenting the fact that she isn't.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 9, 2016)

...


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Yes it is starting to piss me off too


'They're making it up' seems to be the counter bite


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I like Angela Eagle the more I see the more I like.


Gisella Stuart is reasonably coherent on the other side. Despite usually talking shite


----------



## free spirit (Jun 9, 2016)

kill me now.

alternatively 10 minutes to peaky blinders, I couldn't take another hour of this shit.


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

free spirit said:


> kill me now.
> 
> alternatively 10 minutes to peaky blinders, I couldn't take another hour of this shit.


Christ, there isn't, is there?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

This is the first time I have heard Amber Rudd stringing a coherent sentence together ..

I don't know much about Gisela Stuart but as a German living here it seems odd to be arguing to bring up the drawbridge to prevent others any coming after her.

I think leave going on about immigration are focussing on fears and trying to scare the population about "incomers".. surely this is almost racist?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

belboid said:


> Christ, there isn't, is there?


It goes on till 10pm ....


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

J Ed said:


> No doubt we'll have a million thinkpieces tomorrow from liberal journos saying that she is poised to replace Corbyn or lamenting the fact that she isn't.


But of course she has shared a platform with the tories, something Corbyn has refused to do ..


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But of course she has shared a platform with the tories, something Corbyn has refused to do ..


In a debate amongst many others where she is making a very distinct argument. 

Amber Rudd and the Tory woman for leave are both rubbish, aren't they?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But of course she has shared a platform with the tories, something Corbyn has refused to do ..



Don't worry, Jeremy is making his devastating intervention 3 days before the vote (on Sky).


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

belboid said:


> .. Amber Rudd and the Tory woman for leave are both rubbish, aren't they?


They don't seem very incisive no ..


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Don't worry, Jeremy is making his devastating intervention 3 days before the vote (on Sky).


Not being a Sky subscriber that will be invisible for me ..


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Not being a Sky subscriber that will be invisible for me ..



Sky News I think, so freeview etc.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Sky News I think, so freeview etc.


I have freesat - pretty sure I don't get it ..


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 9, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I have freesat - pretty sure I don't get it ..



Free online then


----------



## newbie (Jun 9, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I can't muster any more on this debate/thread for now,


oops, sorry to have been the final straw 

Come back stronger when you're ready, I don't suppose I'm the only one to really value your contributions.


----------



## belboid (Jun 9, 2016)

A question about shit use of sound bites!can they avoid using their key ones?


----------



## hipipol (Jun 9, 2016)

Found me themetune""""


----------



## weltweit (Jun 9, 2016)

belboid said:


> A question about shit use of sound bites!can they avoid using their key ones?


I thought the closing statements were well presented ...


----------



## agricola (Jun 9, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If Cameron survives to 2020, I don't see how it can possibly be Johnson. He's not even in government, and isn't likely to be any time soon, assuming a remain vote.



I am not sure that being out of this Government is necessarily that bad a thing, though.  We are probably going to see a recession within two years, made worse by Osborne's complete failure to fix any of the problems that caused the last one.  If Remain wins, and the problems of the EU continue to get worse, whoever is associated with that campaign is going to be held to account for it electorally.   Boris meanwhile will be able to say "_Well, none of it is anything to do with me_", and then clown around a bit whilst his friends in the media paint him as the salvation of the Tory Party.


----------



## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> IWMCB has to be a statement that *you are a little Englander!*
> 
> I don't "want my country back", I am comfortable that "my country" (is it really theirs in the first place?) is cooperating and collaborating with its neighbours and less likely as a result to get into catastrophic conflicts of all sorts of kinds ..
> 
> I like collaborating with neighbouring countries and think we should be doing more of it not less!



We can collaborate and and cooperate with our neighbouring countries quite easily without them having the authority to dictate to us on policies specific to our particular interests, common market, aye no bother, United States of Europe? Not at this time, thank you.


----------



## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

newbie said:


> From the link you provided “There cannot be an agreement without France and much less against France.”  That seems clear.
> 
> I accept that if 27 of 28 countries are strongly in favour it will take formidable politicians to resist. That majority is not a foregone conclusion and anyway history shows that standing against the majority is not impossible, Thatcher got concessions at Maastricht, the French blew up the EU Constitution, the Irish could have destroyed the Lisbon treaty.
> 
> What is this 'EU' that piles on the pressure?



Until,the Irish got the threat and had a second referendum and then did what they where instructed.


----------



## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

killer b said:


> Osborne _has_ fucked it.



Thankfully.


----------



## laptop (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> without them having the authority to dictate to us ...


Don't remember you being a daft Little Englander.

"We" *are* one of "them".


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> Until,the Irish got the threat and had a second referendum and then did what they where instructed.


that's one way of putting it.  It's pretty lazy though, makes the people of Ireland sound like lapdogs. Another might be "EU summit gives in to Irish demands on Lisbon Treaty".  Whether or not you think what the Irish government negotiated was worthwhile, the people who voted obviously did.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> We can collaborate and and cooperate with our neighbouring countries quite easily without them having the authority to dictate to us on policies specific to our particular interests, common market, aye no bother, United States of Europe? Not at this time, thank you.


I think it quite likely the Eurozone countries will move towards a united states of Europe, and if that is their desire so be it, but the UK's position outside the Eurozone means we will remain out of it - which I think is also what we want.


----------



## newbie (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> We can collaborate and and cooperate with our neighbouring countries quite easily without them having the authority to dictate to us on policies specific to our particular interests, common market, aye no bother, United States of Europe? Not at this time, thank you.


It's a common urban debating technique I'm not particularly fond of, but sometimes I think it's pertinent.  Who is "We", who is "us"?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2016)

> 1h ago08:51
> 
> *Cameron says Brexit could put future of HS2 in jeopardy*


And this is, somehow, a 'remain' argument?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

I am wondering what people's actual personal experiences of EU migrants are? Because my experiences have been wholly positive - but I am aware I may be "sheltered" somehow.

I know quite a few British people living and working in France, Spain and Germany and they enjoy the ability to live there. I also know a lot of EU migrants living and working in the UK and they seem wholly harmless, paying their taxes bringing up their families and contributing here.

What are your personal experiences of EU migrants?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I am wondering what people's actual personal experiences of EU migrants are? Because my experiences have been wholly positive - but I am aware I may be "sheltered" somehow.
> 
> I know quite a few British people living and working in France, Spain and Germany and they enjoy the ability to live there. I also know a lot of EU migrants living and working in the UK and they seem wholly harmless, paying their taxes bringing up their families and contributing here.
> 
> What are your personal experiences of EU migrants?



I think that they are irrelevant to the debate. If we leave there aren't going to be mass deportations of EU and EEA immigrants in Britain or British citizens from EU and EEA member states.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

Perhaps I should start a new thread on personal experiences of EU migration?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that they are irrelevant to the debate. If we leave there aren't going to be mass deportations of EU and EEA immigrants in Britain or British citizens from EU and EEA member states.


But EU immigration, and the fear of it, seems to have become a central plank of this referendum so a vote leave, if we also leave the single market, is likely to usher in a change as to how it is permitted in future.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But EU immigration, and the fear of it, seems to have become a central plank of this referendum so a vote leave, if we also leave the single market, is likely to usher in a change as to how it is permitted in future.



Yes, both sides have used immigration in order to ratchet up fear of supporting the other side. There is no way that our immigration policy towards EU and EEA states will change significantly, if it did then capitalism would grind to a halt.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yes, both sides have used immigration in order to ratchet up fear of supporting the other side. There is no way that our immigration policy towards EU and EEA states will change significantly, if it did then capitalism would grind to a halt.


I don't follow your argument, the whole line of leave campaigners is that the only way to limit inward EU migration is to leave the EU. And while many leave campaigners want a points system for EU migrants all want to drive down the numbers coming from EU countries. How will that affect capitalism?


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't follow your argument, the whole line of leave campaigners is that the only way to limit inward EU migration is to leave the EU. And while many leave campaigners want a points system for EU migrants all want to drive down the numbers coming from EU countries. How will that affect capitalism?


Its like dealing with a stuck record.

JIT supply chains don't work so well when you have to add in bonded warehouses.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> JIT supply chains don't work so well when you have to add in bonded warehouses.


Capitalism existed long before the single market.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Capitalism existed long before the single market.



So did steam engines,  doesn't mean the railways have large coal dumps everywhere these days


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> So did steam engines,  doesn't mean the railways have large coal dumps everywhere these days


they didn't have large coal dumps everywhere even during the halcyon days of steam


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> they didn't have large coal dumps everywhere even during the halcyon days of steam


There were a lot more of them about than there are these days.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> So did steam engines,  doesn't mean the railways have large coal dumps everywhere these days


I think leaving the single market would be a mistake, a big mistake, but a lot of people in the UK, as evidenced by questions at debates, think unfettered EU migration is a very bad thing.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I think leaving the single market would be a mistake, a big mistake, but a lot of people in the UK, as evidenced by questions at debates, think unfettered EU migration is a very bad thing.



Which of the regular contributors to this thread is that aimed at.  Coz I know I've told you repeatedly a successful leave vote will still have us in the Single Market.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> And this is, somehow, a 'remain' argument?



Hilarious innit.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Which of the regular contributors to this thread is that aimed at.  Coz I know I've told you repeatedly a successful leave vote will still have us in the Single Market.


It was aimed at the undecided who might read this thread.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 10, 2016)

Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, seems to think that the UK will have no single-market access outside the EU

No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says

Probably just a shot across the bows I guess.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 10, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, seems to think that the UK will have no single-market access outside the EU
> 
> No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says
> 
> Probably just a shot across the bows I guess.



They'd do it to us just to set an example for other countries. In the same way that they stamped on the faces of Greek workers and pensioners for voting in a left government, they will stamp on us for leaving the EU. Does anyone want to be in a club that treats its members that way though?


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It was aimed at the undecided who might read this thread.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> They'd do it to us just to set an example for other countries. In the same way that they stamped on the faces of Greek workers and pensioners for voting in a left government, they will stamp on us for leaving the EU. Does anyone want to be in a club that treats its members that way though?


That would mean punishing Norway and Switzerland for...? We actually still have EEA membership as it is. Membership card is probably in THAT drawer in the kitchen at Downing St.   EEA route means the two years is mainly sorting out ancillaries like Erasmus, Arrest warrants and the like,  and agriculture. EEA doesn't include CAP (Pickled herring and fondue don't figure heavily) transitioning agriculture is going to eat heavily into any saving initially.   Though we are having better weather than the continent, and Canada and Russia currently under sanction..


----------



## belboid (Jun 10, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, seems to think that the UK will have no single-market access outside the EU
> 
> No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says
> 
> Probably just a shot across the bows I guess.


So Italy is the home of love and food, France has beauty and elegance, while Britain...is nonchalance and progress. 

Like we give a fuck


----------



## weltweit (Jun 10, 2016)




----------



## two sheds (Jun 10, 2016)

They registered *while* going to the toilet?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 10, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> They'd do it to us just to set an example for other countries. In the same way that they stamped on the faces of Greek workers and pensioners for voting in a left government, they will stamp on us for leaving the EU. Does anyone want to be in a club that treats its members that way though?


yeah, the ruling classes do cos its not them thats the battered spouse in the situation is it. 

except for the brexiteer ruling classes who don't want to be in the EU but not out of anything like human decency or logic, they just want more money and power and see this all as positioning


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 10, 2016)

two sheds said:


> They registered *while* going to the toilet?



Women don't pee standing up (intentionally, anyway).


----------



## two sheds (Jun 10, 2016)

Might be differently shaped men


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> But EU immigration, and the fear of it, seems to have become a central plank of this referendum so a vote leave, if we also leave the single market, is likely to usher in a change as to how it is permitted in future.



I suspect there are some leave voters who will expect that we'll pull up the drawbridge immediately, and be sending all the Polish home (including offspring born here), and the pub that shut down and became an Eastern European supermarket will go back to being a pub again. I don't think that what will emerge from a leave vote will meet their expectations. Hence the arguments about immigration will continue for some years yet, and there will be right-wing parties capitalising on this, likely to be UKIP cannibalising the traditional Labour vote.


----------



## magneze (Jun 10, 2016)

If exit was really as tragic as Cameron makes out, he looks even more a numpty for asking in the first place. Or he's lying. Or both.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 10, 2016)

magneze said:


> If exit was really as tragic as Cameron makes out, he looks even more a numpty for asking in the first place. Or he's lying. Or both.


4 million ukip voters. double that for those who would vote kipper but that nice mr cameron put the question to a vote and thier trad tory so loyalty is still a factor. thats 8 mill. Not a voting bloc to be sniffed at. He had to offer this reff or risk the open warfare we are seeing now dog him sooner than it has. He bought time, stopped a bleed out to the kippers but now the times come and its all going down the shitter. Vote out to let camerons reign end on a fart noise


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 10, 2016)

...and drag Gidiot down with him ftw...


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I think leaving the single market would be a mistake, a big mistake, but a lot of people in the UK, as evidenced by questions at debates, think unfettered EU migration is a very bad thing.



Even hardcore capitalists have a hard time selling being locked into a "single market"  with one the lowest economic growth rates in the world.
the oh so European "single" market that, among others, Chile, south Africa and South Korea enjoy unfettered access to, tariff free...
This is what a free trade agreement look like:
Now, in that document, find and replace Chile with The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland.
or
ask yourself if the UK fits the relevant criteria that brought about Chile's free trade agreement:


> CONSIDERING the traditional links between the Parties and with particular reference to:
> 
> the common cultural heritage and the close historical, political and economic ties which unite them;
> their full commitment to the respect for democratic principles and fundamental human rights as set out in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights;
> ...


or
ask yourself why the Eu would see fit to deny a free trade agreement with the UK (other than out of petulance and vindictiveness):


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> They'd do it to us just to set an example for other countries. In the same way that they stamped on the faces of Greek workers and pensioners for voting in a left government, they will stamp on us for leaving the EU. Does anyone want to be in a club that treats its members that way though?


yep, petulant & vindictive.
The standard was set against the Greeks


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Even hardcore capitalists have a hard time selling being locked into a "single market"  with one the lowest economic growth rates in the world.
> the oh so European "single" market that, among others, Chile, south Africa and South Korea enjoy unfettered access to, tariff free...
> This is what a free trade agreement look like:
> Now, in that document, find and replace Chile with The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Norther Ireland.
> ...


They wouldn't deny just can't be done in a 2 year time frame,  takes about ten years.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> They wouldn't deny just can't be done in a 2 year time frame,  takes about ten years.


Schauble (and weltweit) seem to be conveying the idea that the process needs to be: 1. get slung out,2. join the back of the queue for free trade negotiations. 3 start reneging free trade agreement in the distant future.
I call bullshit. I see it more like a carve out of sorts, whereby the criteria of the separation from the union need to be negotiated point by point which ever way you handle it.
The underlying principle that the UK fits the criteria for a free trade agreement would be hard to deny and could be agreed immediately, therefore making the said negotiation more of a transition from status quo (free trade) to desired solution (free trade) agreement whilst negotiating all the stuff that needs carving out. Therefore the free trade / access to the single market point doesn't need to be touched.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Schauble (and weltweit) seem to be conveying the idea that the process needs to be: 1. get slung out,2. join the back of the queue for free trade negotiations. 3 start reneging free trade agreement in the distant future.
> I call bullshit. I see it more like a carve out of sorts, whereby the criteria of the separation from the union need to be negotiated point by point which ever way you handle it.
> The underlying principle that the UK fits the criteria for a free trade agreement would be hard to deny and could be agreed immediately, therefore making the said negotiation more of a transition from status quo (free trade) to desired solution (free trade) agreement whilst negotiating all the stuff that needs carving out. Therefore the free trade / access to the single market point doesn't need to be touched.


The transition isn't easy.   Which is why most credible exit plans start with move to EEA/EFTA   They usually try and expand on what happens after - what happens after  is you bin your plan and redraft.  UK retreating to EEA has knock on to other relationships within EUrope that are beyond UK control needs a bit of suck it and see.
Australian type  MRA deal could be done in shorter order I suppose  but means drawing line under all existing arrangements and then moving forward from there.  Still have the problem with 69% UK Parliament and potentially vexatious EUropean "friends"


----------



## magneze (Jun 10, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> 4 million ukip voters. double that for those who would vote kipper but that nice mr cameron put the question to a vote and thier trad tory so loyalty is still a factor. thats 8 mill. Not a voting bloc to be sniffed at. He had to offer this reff or risk the open warfare we are seeing now dog him sooner than it has. He bought time, stopped a bleed out to the kippers but now the times come and its all going down the shitter. Vote out to let camerons reign end on a fart noise


... and potentially early too.


----------



## danny la rouge (Jun 10, 2016)

Not sure what Osborne is attempting to do with this. Maybe he wants the Scottish Yes camp to vote Leave.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> The transition isn't easy.   Which is why most credible exit plans start with move to EEA/EFTA   They usually try and expand on what happens after - what happens after  is you bin your plan and redraft.  UK retreating to EEA has knock on to other relationships within EUrope that are beyond UK control needs a bit of suck it and see.
> Australian type  MRA deal could be done in shorter order I suppose  but means drawing line under all existing arrangements and then moving forward from there.  Still have the problem with 69% UK Parliament and potentially vexatious EUropean "friends"


Nobody says it'll be easy but the Eu is currently processing a dozen or so other country's agreements. there are enough models are out there, and as I said, we fulfill all the pre-requisites without a doubt .

Anyway, what comes after a remain vote? A referendum for the UK to adopt the Euro?
Seems a bit pointless remaining in the Eu without a seat at the fiscal union discussion table. Plenty of negotiation on the differences will be needed there, with little to no added value for both parties. May as well use all that effort to get a better deal based on independence, no?


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Nobody says it'll be easy but the Eu is currently processing a dozen or so other country's agreements. there are enough models are out there, and as I said, we fulfill all the pre-requisites without a doubt .
> 
> Anyway, what comes after a remain vote? A referendum for the UK to adopt the Euro?
> Seems a bit pointless remaining in the Eu without a seat at the fiscal union discussion table. Plenty of negotiation on the differences will be needed there, with little to no added value for both parties. May as well use all that effort to get a better deal based on independence, no?



Well I'd guess from a UK point of view fully extending the single market to services,so that continentals and maybe US(TTIP) can vulture on our healthcare have more opportunity to avail themselves of our marvellous financial services.  And the EUrozone moves towards a United States of EUrope while we get offered associate membership on  their terms - like EUrope's Puerto Rico only with shit weather (it's actually nice today).

or

Sir John Major's mob lose patience with Portugal,  pulls its credit rating (Oct) and the whole gets tested to destruction while we sit in the 2nd class lounge listening to the band.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Sir John Major's mob lose patience with Portugal,  pulls its credit rating (Oct) and the whole gets tested to destruction while we sit in the 2nd class lounge listening to the band.


the band's in the business class lounge, in the 2nd class you get piped abba instrumentals


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the band's in the business class lounge, in the 2nd class you get piped abba instrumentals


us urbanites are mostly in steerage.  sorry used we as in UK


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Well I'd guess from a UK point of view fully extending the single market to services,so that continentals and maybe US(TTIP) can vulture on our healthcare have more opportunity to avail themselves of our marvellous financial services.  And the EUrozone moves towards a United States of EUrope while we get offered associate membership on  their terms - like EUrope's Puerto Rico only with shit weather (it's actually nice today).
> 
> or
> 
> Sir John Major's mob lose patience with Portugal,  pulls its credit rating (Oct) and the whole gets tested to destruction while we sit in the 2nd class lounge listening to the band.


The way things are heading, the Eu (excluding Germany) will be the US's new Puerto Rico. We'd be doing well if we can negotiate a Mexico (independent access to both markets) while we can.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Nobody says it'll be easy but the Eu is currently processing a dozen or so other country's agreements. there are enough models are out there, and as I said, we fulfill all the pre-requisites without a doubt ........



Actually there are prtactically only two ways especially with the 2 year Article 50 time frame the Aussie MRA (Mutual Recognition Agreement) route -yep as long as you don't tinker we'll call you compliant OR the fall back to EEA (yes we are members)and al la carte it for the two years, the other WTO type routes mean going through our entire statue and tracing line by line what bit makes what an Acceptable Means of Compliance to whom so you know what you have to keep to do a deal with so and so and what is swarf- going to need a bigger civil service.

And you still have to get through a Parliament where 69% of MP's are campaigning for remain and the government is out numbered in the Lords.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 10, 2016)

Leave opens up massive lead in exclusive Brexit poll for The Independent


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Leave opens up massive lead in exclusive Brexit poll for The Independent



Well if the momentum wasn't with leave before it is now, I reckon we are heading for a leave vote.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

Wish I had put more money on leave now


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

I keep running into people on both sides that think that there is going to be some sort of immediate mass deportation and/or closing of the border to people from EU/EEA member states in the event of a Leave vote. AFAIK no senior politician or even journalist on either side of the referendum has actually come out to say that that is what would happen, but then again I cannot recall many prominent voices saying that it won't happen either.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Leave opens up massive lead in exclusive Brexit poll for The Independent



Similar thing happened in the Scots referendum.....improved turnout.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Similar thing happened in the Scots referendum.....improved turnout.



Yes but the turnout is already expected to be very high. 

Authorities Prepare For 80% EU Vote Turnout


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Similar thing happened in the Scots referendum.....improved turnout.


Where did they open a massive lead? And how did turnout weeks later effect this polling?


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I keep running into people on both sides that think that there is going to be some sort of immediate mass deportation and/or closing of the border to people from EU/EEA member states in the event of a Leave vote. AFAIK no senior politician or even journalist on either side of the referendum has actually come out to say that that is what would happen, but then again I cannot recall many prominent voices saying that it won't happen either.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


>




Good spot, thanks. Another good example I forgot about is Rajoy saying that he will kick out Brits.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I keep running into people on both sides that think that there is going to be some sort of immediate mass deportation and/or closing of the border to people from EU/EEA member states in the event of a Leave vote. AFAIK no senior politician or even journalist on either side of the referendum has actually come out to say that that is what would happen, but then again I cannot recall many prominent voices saying that it won't happen either.


Plenty of non-politician lefties liberals and anarchists have said it over and over though. That's the whole point of project fear - make others say it. Make it common sense.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Plenty of non-politician lefties liberals and anarchists have said it over and over though. That's the whole point of project fear - make others say it. Make it common sense.



Yeah, I actually meant to write that as well. So what's going on here? Are people hearing this from people now that it has become common sense even if it isn't being explicitly said by journos etc, assuming that it is true and it's having the reverse effect of what was intended? Is the belief making significant numbers of people more likely to vote out?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Yeah, I actually meant to write that as well. So what's going on here? Are people hearing this from people now that it has become common sense even if it isn't being explicitly said by journos etc, assuming that it is true and it's having the reverse effect of what was intended? Is the belief making significant numbers of people more likely to vote out?


Yes, up until the suggested reverse effect -  might have had that. Don't know. It's certainly now common sense on much of the above spectrum i mentioned.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 10, 2016)

.....the Leave campaign's vagueness at detailing exacly what a post-Brexit scenario would look like does offer a huge blank white canvas onto which anyone & everyone can - and indeed is - projecting their own nightmares or aspirations about the future...that's pretty powerful.....even the least engaged or informed voters knows Remain is basically going to be a vote for the status quo & a continuation of business-as-usual ....


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Where did they open a massive lead? And how did turnout weeks later effect this polling?


Scottish referendum: Shock new poll says Scots set to vote for independence

and Cameron scurried round offering a moon on stick for everybody, then when they went through the data afterwards vast majority of No voters had made their mind up  months before. The illusion it wasn't in the bag made sure people actually got out and voted.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Scottish referendum: Shock new poll says Scots set to vote for independence
> 
> and Cameron scurried round offering a moon on stick for everybody, then when they went through the data afterwards vast majority of No voters had made their mind up  months before. The illusion it wasn't in the bag made sure people actually got out and voted.


That's not a comparable shock huge lead at all. Is there one then?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> .....the Leave campaign's vagueness at detailing exacly what a post-Brexit scenario would look like does offer a huge blank white canvas onto which anyone & everyone can - and indeed is - projecting their own nightmares or aspirations about the future...that's pretty powerful.....even the least engaged or informed voters knows Remain is basically going to be a vote for the status quo & a continuation of business-as-usual ....



Yes, and in a time of big anti-establishment sentiment and disillusion a vote _against_ the status quo is attractive regardless of what it is for.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> That's not a comparable shock huge lead at all. Is there one then?



Bristol is a long way from Scotland


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Bristol is a long way from Scotland


Silly reply. Is there a comparable shock poll or not?


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> Actually there are prtactically only two ways especially with the 2 year Article 50 time frame the Aussie MRA (Mutual Recognition Agreement) route -yep as long as you don't tinker we'll call you compliant OR the fall back to EEA (yes we are members)and al la carte it for the two years, the other WTO type routes mean going through our entire statue and tracing line by line what bit makes what an Acceptable Means of Compliance to whom so you know what you have to keep to do a deal with so and so and what is swarf- going to need a bigger civil service.
> 
> And you still have to get through a Parliament where 69% of MP's are campaigning for remain and the government is out numbered in the Lords.



I observed the line by line approach done by a big corporate group,when they divested one it's subsidiaries (I was subbing for the subsidiary at the time). When done pragmatically and with respect (not toxic), it really isn't too much added work, compared to operationally maintaining and upgrading existing agreements.
So one argument would be that the effort for the civil service will only be a _one off_, rather than the perpetual bean counting exercise the Eu currently imposes.

I'm not aware of any deadline when the "cut" has to be implemented by. Is there one?


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I keep running into people on both sides that think that there is going to be some sort of immediate mass deportation and/or closing of the border to people from EU/EEA member states in the event of a Leave vote. AFAIK no senior politician or even journalist on either side of the referendum has actually come out to say that that is what would happen, but then again I cannot recall many prominent voices saying that it won't happen either.


I think the point being made is that either that must happen, or the leave side are talking complete bollocks by playing the immigration and controlling our borders card while knowing that in reality leaving the EU will have fuck all impact as they'll have to agree to maintain the current free movement of people anyway.

I assume it's the latter, but as they never seem to give a straight answer to the question then it's surely valid to query whether they actually intend to close the borders and point out what that would mean in practice if they did.

It's nuts really* that leave are now putting immigration front and centre of their campaign when it's clear that leaving the EU will have zero impact on it if we stay in the European Economic Area, which they all seem to be saying we would.

*as in it's a campaign based on an outright lie.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

Surely if anything the major possible change to immigration post-Brexit would be a more liberal policy on non-EU/EEA immigration in addition to continued freedom of movement. I don't think that that is likely, I still don't think we will leave even if there is a Leave vote, but it's far more likely than an end to EU and EEA immigration.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Surely if anything the major possible change to immigration post-Brexit would be a more liberal policy on non-EU/EEA immigration in addition to continued freedom of movement. I don't think that that is likely, I still don't think we will leave even if there is a Leave vote, but it's far more likely than an end to EU and EEA immigration.


it all depends who's in charge after a leave vote, but if they were to do what they're saying on immigration then we'd not get access to the EEA and the rest of the EU probably would decide to retaliate by kicking the ex pats out / putting in place visa entry requirements. It's generally how it works if one country puts in place a points based immigration system then the other countries affected will do the same in reverse.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

Here we see just how project fear works...it's now common sense for these types.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> I observed the line by line approach done by a big corporate group,when they divested one it's subsidiaries (I was subbing for the subsidiary at the time). When done pragmatically and with respect (not toxic), it really isn't too much added work, compared to operationally maintaining and upgrading existing agreements.
> So one argument would be that the effort for the civil service will only be a _one off_, rather than the perpetual bean counting exercise the Eu currently imposes.
> 
> I'm not aware of any deadline when the "cut" has to be implemented by. Is there one?


2 years after article 50 called, extensions require the unanimous approval of all 28 states - ie not realistic and easy to hold to ransom


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

go on then butch, how would you see this panning out in terms of the EU reaction should the loudest brexit cheerleader get his way and end up implementing a points based immigration policy for EU citizens?

This is their policy position, I'm not sure why they should be allowed to spout such bollocks unchallenged.



> *UKIP launches Immigration policy*
> 
> *Published*
> Today in Central London, UKIP Leader Nigel Farage MEP and UKIP Migration spokesman Steven Woolfe MEP launched our Immigration policy.
> ...


----------



## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)




----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> go on then butch, how would you see this panning out in terms of the EU reaction should the loudest brexit cheerleader get his way and end up implementing a points based immigration policy for EU citizens?
> 
> This is their policy position, I'm not sure why they should be allowed to spout such bollocks unchallenged.


I was making a point about your passing off of handed down lies as common sense. _It's true. This is what will happen. Listen to me i know. Ypu'll get kicked out. Yep. You won't be able to come back in either. Your mates, they're all getting kicked out. Your mum, she;s getting kicked out of france too._

What i think will happen doesn't effect that.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I was making a point about your passing off of handed down lies as common sense. _It's true. This is what will happen. Listen to me i know. Ypu'll get kicked out. Yep. You won't be able to come back in either. Your mates, they're all getting kicked out. Your mum, she;s getting kicked out of france too._
> 
> What i think will happen doesn't effect that.


so you're not prepared to venture your own opinion on the subject then? just snipe from the sidelines.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> so you're not prepared to venture your own opinion on the subject then? just snipe from the sidelines.


I'm prepared to point out what you're up to. For free as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> so you're not prepared to venture your own opinion on the subject then? just snipe from the sidelines.


_Hello, i've talked a load of made up bollocks. If you too don't talk a load of made up counter bollocks then my load of made up bollocks is true._


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> go on then butch, how would you see this panning out in terms of the EU reaction should the loudest brexit cheerleader get his way and end up implementing a points based immigration policy for EU citizens?
> 
> This is their policy position, I'm not sure why they should be allowed to spout such bollocks unchallenged.


Don't talk bollocks, brexit will kill UKIP.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> kicking the ex pats out


this bit probably wouldn't happen, as long as the UK agreed that those from the EU who're here already can stay as well, but if the UK introduced a points based immigration system for EU citizens then I can't see any way that the the EU wouldn't do the same for UK citizens.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 10, 2016)

FFS, UKIP are gonna do shit. They might have plenty of appeal but really, they're going to shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:
			
		

> kicking the ex pats out





free spirit said:


> this bit probably wouldn't happen, as long as the UK agreed that those from the EU who're here already can stay as well, but if the UK introduced a points based immigration system for EU citizens then I can't see any way that the the EU wouldn't do the same for UK citizens.



The sort of consistent clear thinking and truth telling needed right now.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> it all depends who's in charge after a leave vote, but if they were to do what they're saying on immigration then we'd not get access to the EEA and the rest of the EU probably would decide to retaliate by kicking the ex pats out / putting in place visa entry requirements. It's generally how it works if one country puts in place a points based immigration system then the other countries affected will do the same in reverse.


Like how the Eu threw Switzerland out of their free trade agreement after they voted in a referendum to put an end to uncontrolled immigration....
.. .oh, wait up, within 6 months the Schengen agreement was in tatters and nestle products still dominate supermarket shelves of the Eu lands, tariff free.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> FFS, UKIP are gonna do shit. They might have plenty of appeal but really, they're going to shit.


The main point is that other people are eugh and stupid and believe lies. Here's a set of lies i believe. Here's - oddly - why they're not true. Odd little intervention from freespirit.

I look forward to a massive post later from him that non one reads where he researchs the wrong stuff.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't talk bollocks, brexit will kill UKIP.


but it's also the stated policy of the main Vote Leave campaign. Here's the statement from Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, and Gisela Stuart



> Fourth, by the next general election, we will create a genuine Australian-style points based immigration system. The automatic right of all EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK will end, as will EU control over vital aspects of our social security system. EU citizens will be subject to legislation made by those we elect in Westminster, not in Brussels. We could then create fairness between EU citizens and others, including those from Commonwealth countries.
> 
> Those seeking entry for work or study should be admitted on the basis of their skills without discrimination on the ground of nationality. To gain the right to work, economic migrants will have to be suitable for the job in question. For relevant jobs, we will be able to ensure that all those who come have the ability to speak good English. Such a system can be much less bureaucratic and much simpler than the existing system for non-EU citizens.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> this bit probably wouldn't happen, as long as the UK agreed that those from the EU who're here already can stay as well, but if the UK introduced a points based immigration system for EU citizens then I can't see any way that the the EU wouldn't do the same for UK citizens.


So you honestly think there's a chance Irish people might be asked to leave


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

WTF do this leave types thinks capital is - a vengeful wronged partner or a self interested profit seeking set of shared motivations? It's so crude, they just turn the eu (and it's capital/relationship) into people being pissed off or happy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> but it's also the stated policy of the main Vote Leave campaign. Here's the statement from Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, and Gisela Stuart


Yeh. You think they'll be in the driving seat?


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

gosub said:


> 2 years after article 50 called, extensions require the unanimous approval of all 28 states - ie not realistic and easy to hold to ransom


but article 50 is dependent on a notice of withdrawal & subsequent withdrawal agreement afaiu. Why can't the notice of withdrawal will be once the top level objectives are ironed out?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

The way to analyse this is def to look what a group of self interested politicians say will happen. I can think of no other possible way to proceed.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Like how the Eu threw Switzerland out of their free trade agreement after they voted in a referendum to put an end to uncontrolled immigration....
> .. .oh, wait up, within 6 months the Schengen agreement was in tatters and nestle products still dominate supermarket shelves of the Eu lands, tariff free.


have the Swiss actually implemented that referendum decision? nope, they're supposed to implement it by next year, but so far the EU have just managed to force them to accept Croatia as part of the free movement area, so that doesn't seem to be going well.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> have he Swiss actually implemented that referendum decision? nope, they're supposed to implement it by next year, but so far the EU have just managed to force them to accept Croatia as part of the free movement area, so that doesn't seem to be going well.


I love democracy - the eu trying to force people to do things.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. You think they'll be in the driving seat?


yeah fuck it, let's just give a load if right wing anti-immigrant tories a free pass to spout their anti-immigration bollocks unchallenged because your crystal ball says they'll not be in charge if they win the referendum.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I love democracy - the eu trying to force people to do things.


closed borders make the world a much better place to live in.....


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> yeah fuck it, let's just give a load if right wing anti-immigrant tories a free pass to spout their anti-immigration bollocks unchallenged because your crystal ball says they'll not be in charge if they win the referendum.


Here is why you're going to lose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> yeah fuck it, let's just give a load if right wing anti-immigrant tories a free pass to spout their anti-immigration bollocks unchallenged because your crystal ball says they'll not be in charge if they win the referendum.


Maybe you should respond to what I've actually said and not to what you think I've said.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> closed borders make the world a much better place to live in.....


_Force these border open. I don't care how you voted.
_
You have no idea just how authoritarian you liberals are do you


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe you should respond to what I've actually said and not to what you think I've said.


He won't. He doesn't. He's just done the same to me and others over many posts.

The long ill-researched one is coming.


----------



## chilango (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here is why you're going to lose.



We're all going to lose.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Maybe you should respond to what I've actually said and not to what you think I've said.


likewise


Pickman's model said:


> So you honestly think there's a chance Irish people might be asked to leave


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

If you don't like my shit authoritarian idea then you're obv  a ****whatever FS feels fits*****.

Never replying to the actual content offered to him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> likewise


So for you Ireland not part of the EU


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

chilango said:


> We're all going to lose.


But this fucking smug cunt more than others - i hope.

And no, that's no true anyway. There can be favourable reconfigurations of capital.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Here is why you're going to lose.


me?

I doubt it'll just be me losing out if that mob end up in charge and negotiating our exit from the EU. I somehow doubt that the left exit brigade will be getting much of a look in on the negotiations or forming the government afterwards, they'll just get to watch from the sidelines as all those pesky EU regulations get binned.


----------



## fractionMan (Jun 10, 2016)

Leave will be a fucking disaster for science funding in the UK.  They'll fill the gap with even bigger fees and we're headed for the american system. the shits.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> So for you Ireland not part of the EU


obviously they are, but the leave campaign have excluded them from their pie in the sky crap about points based systems and quotas, so I wasn't making the point about Ireland either.



> First, there will be no change for Irish citizens. The right of Irish citizens to enter, reside and work in the UK is already enshrined in our law. This will be entirely unaffected by a vote to leave on 23 June.
> 
> As the Northern Ireland Secretary has made clear, the common travel area that has existed since the creation of an independent Irish state will not be affected. There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> me?
> 
> I doubt it'll just be me losing out if that mob end up in charge and negotiating our exit from the EU. I somehow doubt that the left exit brigade will be getting much of a look in on the negotiations or forming the government afterwards, they'll just get to watch from the sidelines as all those pesky EU regulations get binned.


Note the slip between the stay vote losing the referendum - your post being an example of why they will lose - and that meaning people that you say that you politically oppose coming to power. A horrible revealing slip -given that a) they're already in power and b) that you've established no logical connection between the vote and this happening. You're just_ common sensing_ - again.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> have the Swiss actually implemented that referendum decision? nope, they're supposed to implement it by next year, but so far the EU have just managed to force them to accept Croatia as part of the free movement area, so that doesn't seem to be going well.


You've missed the point. Freedom of movement according to the Eu, was carved in stone. . The threats were loud at the time and Schengen, as a concept, was banded about as the sacrosanct cornerstone to be regarded as _the_ standard. Veer away from it and there's trouble......... 6 months later: Schengen, for the convenience of our German overlords, is dead.
For the hard of thinking - what the Eu projects to naysayers (democratic or otherwise) as a rule, is actually very flimsy.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> me?
> 
> I doubt it'll just be me losing out if that mob end up in charge and negotiating our exit from the EU. I somehow doubt that the left exit brigade will be getting much of a look in on the negotiations or forming the government afterwards, they'll just get to watch from the sidelines as all those pesky EU regulations get binned.


They're _a mob.

No principles, just hell bent on violence. AGAINST YOU. THEY'RE COMING!!!!!
_
Pathetic stuff


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> obviously they are, but the leave campaign have excluded them from their pie in the sky crap about points based systems and quotas, so I wasn't making the point about Ireland either.


But no one knows what will happen after 23 June and here you are suggesting again the fragrant boris will be bossing things


----------



## Flanflinger (Jun 10, 2016)

chilango said:


> We're all going to lose.



One more goal for France and I win a tenner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

Flanflinger said:


> One more goal for France and I win a tenner.


And two more goals?


----------



## Flanflinger (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> And two more goals?



I lose a quid.


----------



## gosub (Jun 10, 2016)

fractionMan said:


> Leave will be a fucking disaster for science funding in the UK.  They'll fill the gap with even bigger fees and we're headed for the american system. the shits.


Norway is in the EUropean science group.


----------



## Flanflinger (Jun 10, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Wish I had put more money on leave now



Average odds on leaving are about 9/4 right now.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Note the slip between the stay vote losing the referendum - your post being an example of why they will lose - and that meaning people that you say that you politically oppose coming to power. A horrible revealing slip -given that a) they're already in power and b) that you've established no logical connection between the vote and this happening. You're just_ common sensing_ - again.


could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.


No need - you've already decided. And used that to ignore all points put to you.


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## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.


One thing at a time. There's a referendum with a very simple question. Focus on that first & forget campaigns


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> But no one knows what will happen after 23 June and here you are suggesting again the fragrant boris will be bossing things


I was clearly quoting and arguing against the campaign message coming from the leave campaign.

fuck it though, there's obviously no chance of a reasoned debate here.


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## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit - are you down with the UK ditching sterling and signing up to the Euro?


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## J Ed (Jun 10, 2016)

Flanflinger said:


> One more goal for France and I win a tenner.



Congrats!


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> fuck it though, there's obviously no chance of a reasoned debate here.



Thing is mate, that's precisely how I feel though about parts of the left having gone into some sort of panic about how everything is going to turn to shit come a leave (but I expect it'll be a lot more drawn out and nuanced than that) and so therefore throwing support into remain - and with some sort of amnesia happening about EU neoliberalism and what its already doing to workers rights, austerity, opening up markets/industries to capital, etc.

If that energy might have been expended on _organising_ on a left exit basis instead.


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## Flanflinger (Jun 10, 2016)

Flanflinger said:


> One more goal for France and I win a tenner.



Get in there. Half of tomorrow nights curry paid for if no more goals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> could you and pickmans model have a conflab to decide if those running the leave campaign are in power / going to be in power afterwards or not please.


Being as dc likely to come under a fair degree of pressure to resign and someone like bj likely to replace him, who would you expect to see in number 10 this time next year, bj or or some bremain loser?


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## Duncan2 (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> One thing at a time. There's a referendum with a very simple question. Focus on that first & forget campaigns


One of the many aspects of all this that I find difficult is the fact that it clearly isn't a simple question? In the unlikely event of a Leave vote who then gets to be the final arbiter of what the people have voted for.Its so far from being obvious you could almost argue its an unfair question to pse.So imprecise/vague as to be meaningless.


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> If that energy might have been expended on _organising_ on a left exit basis instead.


That to me would be even more futile an effort than the effort to join up with rising left wing forces elsewhere in Europe to attempt to reform and improve the EU.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 10, 2016)

Duncan2 said:


> In the unlikely event of a Leave vote who then gets to be the final arbiter of what the people have voted for


 
Hmm.

In theory, the British people (or the English people and those of whichever other bits of the UK that don't decide to fuck off) will exercise their democratic duty to elect a government which will do the best thing for the country.

In practice, whoever the leader of the conservative party is after the dust settles, so long as s/he doesn't lose a confidence vote, can do the best thing for his / her chums until 2020.

I'm still no nearer knowing what the heck to vote than I was when this thread started.

Meh.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> That to me would be even more futile an effort than the effort to join up with rising left wing forces elsewhere in Europe to attempt to reform and improve the EU.


Yet your call is to do the same but with defeated or non-existing left-wing forces. If they don't exist or are defeated then what are you demanding people have imposed on them?

You have no problem imagining a world outside the eu with no left - what about the _reality of the eu with no left_? No left possible. All routes legally closed down. Written into individual states constitutions.


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Being as dc likely to come under a fair degree of pressure to resign and someone like bj likely to replace him, who would you expect to see in number 10 this time next year, bj or or some bremain loser?


in the event of a vote to leave I'd expect cameron would resign or be forced out. Not so sure about who would end up in power after that, could be one of the exit tories, or the government could fall entirely and end up with a snap election. In that case I suspect UKIP would be on a roll after the referendum and we could end up with a Tory / UKIP coalition, but fuck knows really. I doubt it will just be business as usual though, and I doubt it would be someone from the bremain camp in the event of a vote to leave.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> in the event of a vote to leave I'd expect cameron would resign or be forced out. Not so sure about who would end up in power after that, could be one of the exit tories, or the government could fall entirely and end up with a snap election. In that case I suspect UKIP would be on a roll after the referendum and we could end up with a Tory / UKIP coalition, but fuck knows really. I doubt it will just be business as usual though, and I doubt it would be someone from the bremain camp in the event of a vote to leave.


A simple I agree would have done


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## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

weltweit said:


> It was aimed at the undecided who might read this thread.


Does such a creature exist? On this particular thread anyway


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> free spirit - are you down with the UK ditching sterling and signing up to the Euro?


no.

To me one of the main arguments for us staying in the EU is that we're specifically protected from the impacts of the stability and growth pact, and the Euro. There are no penalties that can be applied to us for breaching those nominal debt targets, and we can't be held to ransom by the ECB because we can print our own money if needed to prop up the banks / economy / whatever. So we can decide by ourselves to ditch austerity and there's fuck all the EU can do about it, the UK government is implementing austerity voluntarily not because the EU are forcing it to do it.

Basically what happened to Greece can't be forced on us by the EU, it's impossible with the current set up, so the comparisons with Greece that many people on the left have made are false comparisons.

We can stay and fight alongside with Greece, Spain and other countries if we* and they swing to the left without any fear of what happened to Greece happening to us. They have a far higher chances of ending up forming a minority bloc in the European Council with a blocking percentage of the EU population with us than without us because we are one of the 4 countries with the highest population levels.

Also in Europe at least the parliament is elected by PR, so it's far more likely to end up with Socialist / Green / Left blocs having a role in a left / progressive coalition than would have been the case in the UK - at least prior to Corbyn seemingly managing to retake the Labour party for the left. If the non labour left in the UK got it's act together electorally then it has a far higher chance of getting representation via European PR elections than it does via first past the post elections to the UK parliament.

* obviously all this would depend on Corbyn ending up in power in the UK rather than another neoliberal prick, but that's the best case scenario I can envisage, and it seems more likely than the left rising to power in the UK in the event of a vote to leave, with right wing tories and UKIP in the ascendancy.


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## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> yeah fuck it, let's just give a load if right wing anti-immigrant tories a free pass to spout their anti-immigration bollocks unchallenged because your crystal ball says they'll not be in charge if they win the referendum.


You do realise that the impacts of the referendum go way beyond the current shower of shit that are in parliament


Duncan2 said:


> One of the many aspects of all this that I find difficult is the fact that it clearly isn't a simple question? In the unlikely event of a Leave vote who then gets to be the final arbiter of what the people have voted for.Its so far from being obvious you could almost argue its an unfair question to pse.So imprecise/vague as to be meaningless.


It's really simple. You're making it way more complicated for yoyrself than it needs to be. Eu: yes or no? Not who decides what afterwards. In the case of a brexit vote, the segregation process will exceed at least the next parlimentary election anyway.


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> A simple I agree would have done


your post read like a question to me, but whatever.


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## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> closed borders make the world a much better place to live in.....


Remind me? who's building Barbed wire fences along its borders and giving £billions and preferential treatment to Turkey to act as its jailer?


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> You do realise that the impacts of the referendum go way beyond the current shower of shit that are in parliament
> 
> It's reallt simple. You're making it way more complicated for yoyrself than it needs to be. Eu: yes or no? Not who decides what afterwards. In the case of a brexit vote, the segregation process will exceed at least the next parlimentary election anyway.


will it? There's a 2 year timeline for countries wanting to leave unless they can get agreement from all other countries to let the process drag on longer. Sorting out the mess afterwards will take a lot longer, but the process of leaving could well be completed in this parliament.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> Remind me? who's building Barbed wire fences along its borders and giving £billions and preferential treatment to Turkey to act as its jailer?


not something I agree with either, but tbf the EU's initial reaction was to attempt to get all EU countries to take a fair share of the refugees coming into the EU, something that the UK was a pretty vocal opponent of unfortunately.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> Remind me? who's building Barbed wire fences along its borders and giving £billions and preferential treatment to Turkey to act as its jailer?


Remind me too, what is fortress europe, where it came from and why people like you (FS) have opposed it.


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## Duncan2 (Jun 10, 2016)

No doubt you are right pocketscience but is it not making an assumption to talk about a segregation process.The bremainers have sometimes seemed to suggest that Brexiters are getting excited in the expectation of radical change which is not in fact on the cards whatever the result.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

Duncan2 said:


> No doubt you are right pocketscience but is it not making an assumption to talk about a segregation process.The bremainers have sometimes seemed to suggest that Brexiters are getting excited in the expectation of radical change which is not in fact on the cards whatever the result.


Capital doesn't like disruption. The wider things that apply to ongoing running won't change. What will change is their wider plans as one aspect of them will have been defeated unexpectedly, thus putting those wider plans in jeopardy. It's going to take time.


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## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> not something I agree with either, but tbf the EU's initial reaction was to attempt to get all EU countries to take a fair share of the refugees coming into the EU, something that the UK was a pretty vocal opponent of unfortunately.



No, IIRC, Germany decided to embrace ( without consultation of other EU states) a million refugees, then Merkel, after getting grief from her political establishment demanded that the rest of Europe 'share the load'
Actually a policy I agree with, but it could have been handled so much better.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> No, IIRC, Germany decided to embrace ( without consultation of other EU states) a million refugees, then Merkel, after getting grief from her political establishment demanded that the rest of Europe 'share the load'
> Actually a policy I agree with, but it could have been handled so much better.


...as soon as the cameras turned away so were the refugees. They toughened up and basically lied.


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> No, IIRC, Germany decided to embrace ( without consultation of other EU states) a million refugees, then Merkel, after getting grief from her political establishment demanded that the rest of Europe 'share the load'
> Actually a policy I agree with, but it could have been handled so much better.


yes it could have been. I suspect Merkel was just expecting the other countries to follow her lead as it was the only humane response, and was caught out by the refusal of others to go along with it.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> yes it could have been. I suspect Merkel was just expecting the other countries to follow her lead as it was the only humane response, and was caught out by the refusal of others to go along with it.


Or she was grandstanding for applause then bottled it. Leaving the refugees in limbo.

Edit: or targets to be got rid of


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## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Remind me too, what is fortress europe, where it came from and why people like you (FS) have opposed it.


Naw, not getting dragged into a Godwins on this, sorry


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

Still, the EU response dwarfes the Uk response, with just 1600 Syrian refugees resettled in the UK by March 2016 under the resettlement scheme.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

coley said:


> Naw, not getting dragged into a Godwins on this, sorry


It's not. The EU, the defender of immigrants have built a thing called Fortress Europe and killed thousands of immigrants in the process. Any defender of the EU regarding immigration needs to answer this. But you know, they're not their white european mates being kept out.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> Still, the EU response dwarfes the Uk response, with just 1600 Syrian refugees resettled in the UK by March 2016 under the resettlement scheme.


So what?


----------



## coley (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Or she was grandstanding for applause then bottled it. Leaving the refugees in limbo.
> 
> Edit: or targets to be got rid of



Or, recognised the need for Germany to import a million young workers but expected the rest of us to accept the rest? Horribly cynical I know, but whey up, Germany has by all markers been the biggest beneficiary of the creation of the EU and esp the Euro.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

Who built fortress europe? The immigrants defenders - the EU. Defend the builders of fortress europe against anti-immigrant lies.


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## free spirit (Jun 10, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> So what?


if we're having a discussion about how bad the EU response to the refugee crisis has been on this thread, then it's relevant to point out the the UK response has been massively worse.

EU average last year was 260 asylum applications per 100,000 population. The UK was at 60 per 100,000, and the main brexit campaigns are leading on reducing immigration even further so I don't see that situation improving post brexit.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

We're not. We're on about merkel grandstanding and leaving others in the lurch. What's wrong with you?


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## pocketscience (Jun 10, 2016)

free spirit said:


> will it? There's a 2 year timeline for countries wanting to leave unless they can get agreement from all other countries to let the process drag on longer. Sorting out the mess afterwards will take a lot longer, but the process of leaving could well be completed in this parliament.


2 years from a notification of intent. There's no deadline set for the notification of intent. Seeing as the current gov want to remain they're hardly likely to submit that notification, nor negotiate the exit framework. So 2022 sounds a better target.


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> 2 years from a notification of intent. There's no deadline set for the notification of intent. Seeing as the current gov want to remain they're hardly likely to submit that notification, nor negotiate the exit framework. So 2022 sounds a better target.


It's horrible on a friday  night when free spirit is _researching _- this might help though.


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## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> We're not. We're on about merkel grandstanding and leaving others in the lurch. What's wrong with you?


that's your take on it so obviously it couldn't possibly be worth discussing anything else about the situation.

She may have been grandstanding, but at least her grandstanding resulted in over a million refugees being taken in, with 140k given refugee status last year, nearly have of the figure for the entire EU.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> that's your take on it so obviously it couldn't possibly be worth discussing anything else about the situation.
> 
> She may have been grandstanding, but at least her grandstanding resulted in over a million refugees being taken in, with 140k given refugee status last year, nearly have of the figure for the entire EU.



wtf has that go to do with what you think that you think that you're thinking about talking about?


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## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> wtf has that go to do with what you think that you're  talking about?


fuck knows, I thought I'd been having a discussion that was started by coley. I understood that discussion, I haven't got a clue what you're on about as per usual.


----------



## coley (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> Still, the EU response dwarfes the Uk response, with just 1600 Syrian refugees resettled in the UK by March 2016 under the resettlement scheme.



How do you square up the EUs ( previously liberal) stance on immigration with its knee jerk reaction in regards to the Syrian crisis? Condoning members to build barbed wire fences, bribing Turkey to act as a de facto concentration camp in order to stop refugees entering Europe 'proper'?
What it says to me, is that the EU is a very authoritarian (verging on dictatorship levels) organisation, the refugee crisis is just one more demonstration of the EUs leadership being willing to see people literally  die rather than  undermine the establishments 'status quo' 
We had the warning signs, with the leaderships treatment of Greece and the other 'poorer relations' and if we still need a proof of their intentions, then the remarks regarding "deserters" shouldn't be taken too lightly.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> 2 years from a notification of intent. There's no deadline set for the notification of intent. Seeing as the current gov want to remain they're hardly likely to submit that notification, nor negotiate the exit framework. So 2022 sounds a better target.


I doubt the brexit camp would stand for that? Cameron would be out on his arse if he tried that after a brexit vote. Cameron and Osbourne have both said they'd have to implement it straight away.

It's possible you;re right, but at least as likely that they'd trigger that fairly quickly after the vote.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

coley said:


> How do you square up the EUs ( previously liberal) stance on immigration with its knee jerk reaction in regards to the Syrian crisis? Condoning members to build barbed wire fences, bribing Turkey to act as a de facto concentration camp in order to stop refugees entering Europe 'proper'?
> What it says to me, is that the EU is a very authoritarian (verging on dictatorship levels) organisation, the refugee crisis is just one more demonstration of the EUs leadership being willing to see people literally  die rather than  undermine the establishments 'status quo'
> We had the warning signs, with the leaderships treatment of Greece and the other 'poorer relations' and if we still need a proof of their intentions, then the remarks regarding "deserters" shouldn't be taken too lightly.


panic as much as anything.

Plus if anything it's a demonstration that the EU bureaucracy isn't so all powerful once a blocking minority of countries start going against their wishes there's not a lot they can do about it. They also couldn't force EU countries to take in anything like the number of refugees that they needed to to cope.

I don't see how it can be viewed as some sort of EU plot to suddenly overcome decades of work by that same EU bureaucracy in bringing down border controls, that's seem like a very odd take on the situation.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> I doubt the brexit camp would stand for that? Cameron would be out on his arse if he tried that after a brexit vote. Cameron and Osbourne have both said they'd have to implement it straight away.
> 
> It's possible you;re right, but at least as likely that they'd trigger that fairly quickly after the vote.


Note: all concern =  what cameron would do, what tories would do.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> I doubt the brexit camp would stand for that? Cameron would be out on his arse if he tried that after a brexit vote. Cameron and Osbourne have both said they'd have to implement it straight away.
> 
> It's possible you;re right, but at least as likely that they'd trigger that fairly quickly after the vote.


Sorry, are you suggesting that cameron would trigger the intent to leave button immeadialtly after the referendum* even though he's fully against leaving & he's said he'd resign on a brexit vote? What kind of fucked up shit is that? He's a cunt but he's not an idiot. He'd never be able to set foot in the country again.

*There's no law saying he has to, thats him bluffing again


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

Do you get an eu subsidy on your business btw FS? Being green and solar and all that.


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## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Note: all concern =  what cameron would do, what tories would do.


I'm not sure what cloud cuckoo land version of the situation you're interested in discussing, but here in the real world they're the ones running the government who'd be responsible for taking that decision post referendum (assuming they haven't been forced out / quit).

What a handful of lefty outers want to happen is going to be entirely irrelevant.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> I'm not sure what cloud cuckoo land version of the situation you're interested in discussing, but here in the real world they're the ones running the government who'd be responsible for taking that decision post referendum (assuming they haven't been forced out / quit).
> 
> What a handful of lefty outers want to happen is going to be entirely irrelevant.


Right. Maybe you better check your own Johnson and allies will be in power post an exit vote. But, what's the fucking point anymore?

You coked up self-regarding liberal-green-boring-expert-boss cunt.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Sorry, are you suggesting that cameron would trigger the intent to leave button immeadialtly after the referendum even though he's fully against leaving & he's said he'd resign on a brexit vote?* What kind of fucked up shit is that? He's a cunt but he's not an idiot. He'd never be able to set foot in the country again.
> 
> *There's no law saying he has to, thats him bluffing again


Cameron and Osbourne have both said they'd trigger it immediately. They may be bluffing, they may not, but can you really see them making it to the end of the parliament without setting the process in motion following a leave vote?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

I'd be interested in any eu help you get as a boss and money maker though free spirit. Is it nothing?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

The would do within 4 days. Odd detour.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Right. Maybe you better check your own Johnson and allies will be in power post an exit vote. But, what's the fucking point anymore?
> 
> You coked up self-regarding liberal-green-boring-expert-boss cunt.


oh, you've sunk to that level. again.

I don't have a crystal ball, so can't be sure if cameron will be in charge or Johnson and allies, but it's likely to be one or the other, and I don't see either camp leaving it until after 2020 to formally start negotiations.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> oh, you've sunk to that level. again.
> 
> I don't have a crystal ball, so can't be sure if cameron will be in charge or Johnson and allies, but it's likely to be one or the other, and I don't see either camp leaving it until after 2020 to formally start negotiations.


Any eu subsidy for your huge business? Any perks?


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 11, 2016)

us spirit said:


> Cameron and Osbourne have both said they'd trigger it immediately. They may be bluffing, they may not, but can you really see them making it to the end of the parliament without setting the process in motion following a leave vote?


Is that stipulation from the same rule book Schauble used to deny Greek people access their hard earned savings by not repldnishing the banks with emergency euros after they voted against his ultra draconian austerity program... Open your eyes. They're making it up as they go along.
And you want to remain and change from the inside


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I'd be interested in any eu help you get as a boss and money maker though free spirit. Is it nothing?


nothing.

Though the government is committed at EU level to binding targets for the levels of renewables penetration. Not that this seems to have stopped the tories from attempting to destroy the industry after deciding to 'cut the green crap'.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> Is that stipulagion from the same rule book Schauble used to deny Greek people access their hard earned savings by not repldnishing the banks with emergency euros after they voted against his ultra draconian austerity program... Open your eyes. They're making it up as they go along.
> And you want to remain and change from the inside


what?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> I'm not sure what cloud cuckoo land version of the situation you're interested in discussing, but here in the real world they're the ones running the government who'd be responsible for taking that decision post referendum (assuming they haven't been forced out / quit)


Whereas if Remain wins, your mates will be running things? (Ignoring the imbecility of 50% of the parliamentary conservative party, plus who knows how many members quitting/getting kicked out).

But your support of the EU is at least consistent with your support/membership of parties which that workers and the welfare state.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> nothing.
> 
> Though the government is committed at EU level to binding targets for the levels of renewables penetration. Not that this seems to have stopped the tories from attempting to destroy the industry after deciding to 'cut the green crap'.


You get nothing, no bonus out of being in the eu - no cheaper materials, no driven down wages. Nothing? Have a think about it. Nothing direct?


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## pocketscience (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> what?


You said they'd have to;


free spirit said:


> I doubt the brexit camp would stand for that? Cameron would be out on his arse if he tried that after a brexit vote. *Cameron and Osbourne have both said they'd have to implement it straight away.*
> 
> It's possible you;re right, but at least as likely that they'd trigger that fairly quickly after the vote.


I want to see the rules these cunts keep threatening us with


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You coked up self-regarding liberal-green-boring-expert-boss cunt.



Anyone up for a quick Kumbaya?



or is pissing erudition and intellect away on a stupid fucking message board beef the way forward these days?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 11, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> And you want to remain and change from the inside


But he doesn't really want that much change, a few nicer soundbites, a fresh lick of paint etc. Something on green issues (while ignoring the environmental damage done by the CAP/CFP), pro-freedom of movement (while ignoring both the complete lack of freedom of non-EU citizens and the how capital has used such 'freedom' to attack workers), support the welfare state (while ignoring the attacks launched on nationalised industries by the EU)

The fundamental neo-liberal basis of the EU he supports, he just want's a nicer, _progressive_ version of it. (EDIT: while at the same time denying the the EU is neo-liberal)


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You get nothing, no bonus out of being the eu - no cheaper materials, no driven down wages. Nothing? Have a think about it. Nothing direct?


well, I get no subsidy from the EU, which I thought was the question.

The EU's actually imposed trade tariffs that have raised the cost of chinese panel imports, but I suppose we benefit from having no tarriffs between us an Europe.

some in the industry do use cheap EU migrant workers on the big solar farms etc but not us.

My work isn't the reason I support EU membership directly, though indirectly the binding EU targets for renewables are about the only thing that's likely to stop the tories cutting all renewable support entirely. I was an environmentalist long before I started making a living installing solar panels.

I do fear the complete economic chaos that would ensue following an exit vote though, I doubt we'd survive it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Anyone up for a quick Kumbaya?
> 
> 
> 
> or is pissing erudition and intellect away on a stupid fucking message board beef the way forward these days?



Never not war on this one.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> well, I get no subsidy from the EU, which I thought was the question.
> 
> The EU's actually imposed trade tariffs that have raised the cost of chinese panel imports, but I suppose we benefit from having no tarriffs between us an Europe.
> 
> ...


It'd be capitalist war.
That's the eu.
bye


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> I doubt the brexit camp would stand for that? Cameron would be out on his arse if he tried that after a brexit vote. Cameron and Osbourne have both said they'd have to implement it straight away.
> 
> It's possible you;re right, but at least as likely that they'd trigger that fairly quickly after the vote.


Cameron will be lucky not to be out on his arse either way but defo gone on a leave vote,  though who ever picks up after caretaker is managing a wounded beast 17 majority before this started,  but you seem strangely to have reached a different conclusion as to what will win out - managed xenophobia or managed capital


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> You said they'd have to;
> 
> I want to see the rules these cunts keep threatening us with


I said that they said they'd have to.

I don't know of any specific rules forcing them to do it immediately, so it's probably more the fact that they have a tiny minority and the brexit MPs could easily force them out if they didn't do it pretty soon after an exit vote. 

I also suspect that a judicial review could force them to do it if they took so long that it looked like they weren't respecting the referendum result.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> The fundamental neo-liberal basis of the EU he supports


oh fuck off.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> Cameron will be lucky not to be out on his arse either way but defo gone on a leave vote,  though who ever picks up after caretaker is managing a wounded beast 17 majority before this started,  but you seem strangely to have reached a different conclusion as to what will win out - managed racism or managed capital


Have I? Please do enlighten me about the conclusion I've reached.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 11, 2016)

So you didn't campaign for the Liberal Democrats then? You are currently a member (and campaign organiser) for the Party that employed scab labour?


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> Have I? Please do enlighten me about the conclusion I've reached.


Will be a pleasure on the morning


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> So you didn't campaign for the Liberal Democrats then? You are currently a member (and campaign organiser) for the Party that employed scab labour?


very briefly in a 3 ways split marginal that lib dem was the best way of ensuring it didn't go tory.

A party that stood on a fully anti-austerity anti-neoliberal platform at the elections that I campaigned for them at. I'm not a member of Brighton Green Party, and wouldn't support that position.

I also spent a decade or more campaigning and protesting against neoliberal globalisation, but hey don't let that bother you.


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> yeah fuck it, let's just give a load if right wing anti-immigrant tories a free pass to spout their anti-immigration bollocks unchallenged because your crystal ball says they'll not be in charge if they win the referendum.


Hello you for a start


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> Hello you for a start


what point are you attempting to make?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

It's done.

Eu supported business owners like free spirit are for the eu.

No one anti-eu has anything but racist arguments. Nothing.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> A party that stood on a fully anti-austerity anti-neoliberal platform at the elections that I campaigned for them at. I'm not a member of Brighton Green Party, and wouldn't support that position.


Apart from you have supported it by continuing to support the party, by refusing to challenge it.

What has the Green Party done to stop it happening again? What has it done to those members that employed scab labour? What has your local branch done? Did you push for a motion condemning the Brighton Green Party and supporting the strikers from your local branch? Are you trying to get something written into the Rules of the Party to make such actions an expulsion offence? Or are you too busy helping out Cameron and the CBI ensuring that Remain wins.



free spirit said:


> I also spent a decade or more campaigning and protesting against neoliberal globalisation, but hey don't let that bother you.


How by campaigning the LibDems (definitely not a neo-liberal party of course)? By campaigning for the Greens? By campaigning for the EU - which you continue to claim isn't neo-liberal.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> very briefly in a 3 ways split marginal that lib dem was the best way of ensuring it didn't go tory.
> 
> A party that stood on a fully anti-austerity anti-neoliberal platform at the elections that I campaigned for them at. I'm not a member of Brighton Green Party, and wouldn't support that position.
> 
> I also spent a decade or more campaigning and protesting against neoliberal globalisation, but hey don't let that bother you.


Why would they? When it counts.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2016)




----------



## killer b (Jun 11, 2016)

I think people just tend to overestimate figures in general. These regular _aren't the British thick racists lol_ 'opinion polls' are disgusting.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think people just tend to overestimate figures in general. These regular _aren't the British thick racists lol_ 'opinion polls' are disgusting.



Some of the questions asked are a bit odd. Is it that odd if people can't name an mep from their region? Honestly I could when I lived elsewhere, but I can't now and I follow politics pretty closely. I don't really see why anyone would know who wasn't directly involved in party politics, and even then...

Why is this lack of knowledge being presented as evidence of the ignorance of the British public and not evidence of the irrelevance of meps to us? They aren't really accountable even to the small extent that mps are.


----------



## Dr. Furface (Jun 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Some of the questions asked are a bit odd. Is it that odd if people can't name an mep from their region? Honestly I could when I lived elsewhere, but I can't now and I follow politics pretty closely. I don't really see why anyone would know who wasn't directly involved in party politics, and even then...
> 
> Why is this lack of knowledge being presented as evidence of the ignorance of the British public and not evidence of the irrelevance of meps to us? They aren't really accountable even to the small extent that mps are.


I'd guess that many people who can't name their MEP couldn't name the leader of their local council either, or maybe even their constituency MP. It's not a big deal if they can't name them, they can find out easy enough if they want to. The problem is that a lot of people don't care if they exist and neither understand nor care about what they do.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> I think people just tend to overestimate figures in general.



I know, and it's true for at least 98% of the population.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 11, 2016)

As if any average joe in any other European country can name their local MEP either...
and it's one thing the Eu can be grateful to Farage for - he's probably raised the awareness of the MEP species more than anyone, ever


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Some of the questions asked are a bit odd. Is it that odd if people can't name an mep from their region? Honestly I could when I lived elsewhere, but I can't now and I follow politics pretty closely. I don't really see why anyone would know who wasn't directly involved in party politics, and even then...
> 
> Why is this lack of knowledge being presented as evidence of the ignorance of the British public and not evidence of the irrelevance of meps to us? They aren't really accountable even to the small extent that mps are.


Jim crow laws asked black voters to name things like all sub-district judges in alabama in order to a) disenfranchise them b) build a popular culture on the idea of certain people not being quite human due to their ignorance and so c) open to being ignored/abused.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

Dr. Furface said:


> I'd guess that many people who can't name their MEP couldn't name the leader of their local council either, or maybe even their constituency MP. It's not a big deal if they can't name them, they can find out easy enough if they want to. The problem is that a lot of people don't care if they exist and neither understand nor care about what they do.



Well I can name my constituency MP and several local councillors off the top of my head but not any of the MEPs (remember that we don't have individual MEPs) elected in my constituency.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2016)

Jill Evans is my local Plaid Mep We're on the same page on a number of things including TTIP. The Tory one is a waste of space, quelle surpise also I can't remember her name nor the Labour one. Shame she may not have a job for much longer.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Jim crow laws asked black voters to name things like all sub-district judges in alabama in order to a) disenfranchise them b) build a popular culture on the idea of certain people not being quite human due to their ignorance and so c) open to being ignored/abused.



How many of those who are sneering can actually name the MEPs from their region? I bet very few.

I think the fact that they can't makes your comparison more apt.


----------



## killer b (Jun 11, 2016)

I wonder how many people change their minds after being called thick by liberals?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> I wonder how many people change their minds after being called thick by liberals?


Let me just check the AV referendum returns on that.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> I wonder how many people change their minds after being called thick by liberals?



and how many of them were called thick specifically by Eddie Izzard?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

Even articul8 has learnt not to do that stuff from that last one. I saw him on a video being quite good earlier this week. Putting the out case.


----------



## killer b (Jun 11, 2016)

Gosh. That must've been hard to type.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> Gosh. That must've been hard to type.


We must leave the door open for these people. A little at least.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 11, 2016)

killer b said:


> I wonder how many people change their minds after being called thick by liberals?


Thick _and_ racist


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

Oh god, this is the best bit of patronising I have seen yet


----------



## Sue (Jun 11, 2016)

What does that even mean?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2016)

haha I have no idea


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

Sue said:


> What does that even mean?



Hey thicko that only cares about popular culture, vote remain


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2016)

Sue said:


> What does that even mean?


The heptarchy survives


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2016)

It says, _you care about the Game of **Rugby Union** so much that you talk about it online. Yet you don't do the same with the the EU. You poor thick fucks. Plus *wink** vote for stuff that helps the boss who owns this place._


----------



## Sue (Jun 11, 2016)

Seen quite a few of these 'Say you're in if you're in' posters. Assume they're pro remain but how wishy washy can you get..? (And that it's not really clear what they're about means they're pretty pointless imo. )


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Hey thicko that only cares about popular culture, vote remain



Ok I see it now but it's a bit patronising and consequentially likely to backfire with some people


----------



## binka (Jun 11, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Shame she may not have a job for much longer.


Finally after 100+ pages someone relates the real tragedy that could unfold - 73 politicians might lose their jobs


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2016)

teqniq said:


> quelle surpise


If there's a brexit vote people will no longer be allowed to drop foreign phrases into conversation


----------



## Sue (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It says, _you care about the Game of **Rugby Union** so much that you talk about it online. Yet you don't do the same with the the EU. You poor thick fucks. Plus *wink** vote for stuff that helps the boss who owns this place._



Fucking hell. Ludicrous.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2016)

binka said:


> Finally after 100+ pages someone relates the real tragedy that could unfold - 73 politicians might lose their jobs


Well in her case although I'm gong to abstain she does seem to actually genuinely care about a range of issues which I'm in agreement with. So if she ends up jobless I really hope she finds something else worthwhile to do.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 11, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> If there's a brexit vote people will no longer be allowed to drop foreign phrases into conversation


Nah not buying that one guv.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> If there's a brexit vote people will no longer be allowed to drop foreign phrases into conversation



Qué será será


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Nah not buying that one guv.


That's OK, it's offered free.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> no.
> 
> To me one of the main arguments for us staying in the EU is that we're specifically protected from the impacts of the stability and growth pact, and the Euro. There are no penalties that can be applied to us for breaching those nominal debt targets, and we can't be held to ransom by the ECB because we can print our own money if needed to prop up the banks / economy / whatever. So we can decide by ourselves to ditch austerity and there's fuck all the EU can do about it, the UK government is implementing austerity voluntarily not because the EU are forcing it to do it.


Of course, none of that is untrue if we were leave either.


free spirit said:


> Basically what happened to Greece can't be forced on us by the EU, it's impossible with the current set up, so the comparisons with Greece that many people on the left have made are false comparisons.


You seem happy being in a club that's currently pushing the Greek model on a dozen or so other nations, sending scores of millions people into poverty, for the benefit of a few. We don't even have a seat at the table anymore, not even allowed in the room - unable to contribute to any fiscal agenda. All that whilst still being one of only a few net contributors.
Remind me of the advantage of the membership?


free spirit said:


> We can stay and fight alongside with Greece, Spain and other countries if we* and they swing to the left without any fear of what happened to Greece happening to us. They have a far higher chances of ending up forming a minority bloc in the European Council with a blocking percentage of the EU population with us than without us because we are one of the 4 countries with the highest population levels.


Greece did swing to the left. The money power at the center of the club gave them such a kicking in that dark corner of the periphery that any other left parties will immediately have their wings clipped, due to the fear of their electorate losing access to their savings overnight...  A retreat is needed and the best place to form any alliance would be outside the perimeter. There's a unique opportunity in front of you now.


free spirit said:


> Also in Europe at least the parliament is elected by PR, so it's far more likely to end up with Socialist / Green / Left blocs having a role in a left / progressive coalition than would have been the case in the UK - at least prior to Corbyn seemingly managing to retake the Labour party for the left. If the non labour left in the UK got it's act together electorally then it has a far higher chance of getting representation via European PR elections than it does via first past the post elections to the UK parliament.


Ahh the European Parliament socialists, headed up by Martin Schulz, he who didn't mind also putting the boot in when Veroufakis was taking that kicking. What aspirations. Or is it just a lack of bottle?


free spirit said:


> * obviously all this would depend on Corbyn ending up in power in the UK rather than another neoliberal prick, but that's the best case scenario I can envisage, and it seems more likely than the left rising to power in the UK in the event of a vote to leave, with right wing tories and UKIP in the ascendancy.


As said by others, the only way you'll be able tame them is to vote leave. Tories will continue its tail spin and ukip will loose it's relevance.


----------



## chilango (Jun 11, 2016)

I can't name my MEP, MP or Council leader. And I meet these fuckers with work often enough.

I can name my local councillors though.


----------



## chilango (Jun 11, 2016)

Leave and Remain both out in force on the high street in Reading today.

One bunch of white middle aged middle class guys facing off another bunch of white middle aged middle class guy. All enjoying themselves thoroughly.

Sums it all up really....


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well I can name my constituency MP and several local councillors off the top of my head but not any of the MEPs (remember that we don't have individual MEPs) elected in my constituency.


constituency MP, Ward councillor (lab). No idea on MEP. Businissmans talking shop


----------



## inva (Jun 11, 2016)

the only reason I know the name of my local mp is because he came to where I was working some years back before that I had no idea who it was. I don't know who any MEPs or councillors are. and I'm against the EU - uh oh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 11, 2016)

Sue said:


> What does that even mean?


other than 'you only care about shit tv chav'? Well 'the north' is an ill defined set of lands south of the Wall, In this case I'd turn the example on its head because greece is basically house stark in terms of ill treatment by capricious greedy cunts


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> other than 'you only care about shit tv chav'? Well 'the north' is an ill defined set of lands south of the Wall, In this case I'd turn the example on its head because greece is basically house stark in terms of ill treatment by capricious greedy cunts


Certainly not house lannister


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's done.
> 
> Eu supported business owners like free spirit are for the eu.
> 
> No one anti-eu has anything but racist arguments. Nothing.



I'm not anti-EU _per se_, I'm anti *this* "European Union", because it doesn't fulfil any useful purpose for Europe's workers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> As if any average joe in any other European country can name their local MEP either...



In Germany, most of the daft buggers know *all* of their various layers of political representatives; from the local _rathaus_ to the _Bundestag_. They're oddly anal like that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 11, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Certainly not house lannister


when you see them at work 'house lannister always pays its debts' seems more and more like a threat than a boast of solvency


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Even articul8 has learnt not to do that stuff from that last one. I saw him on a video being quite good earlier this week. Putting the out case.



Basically, we beat him into shape.


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's done.
> 
> Eu supported business owners like free spirit are for the eu.


do you have the same level of contempt for all self employed trades people, or do you reserve it for those in the renewables sector?

divisive crap


----------



## free spirit (Jun 11, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> As said by others, the only way you'll be able tame them is to vote leave. Tories will continue its tail spin and ukip will loose it's relevance.


You expect that winning the EU referrendum will in some way disempower the eurosceptic right (who've just won the referendum) to the point where they'll lose their relevance and no longer be an electoral threat?

how does that work?

I'm genuinely baffled at some of the logic on display in this thread.


----------



## campanula (Jun 11, 2016)

I do know the name of my MEP  (Howitt) because my son-in-law was their cleaner (they are filthoids).


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> You expect that winning the EU referrendum will in some way disempower the eurosceptic right (who've just won the referendum) to the point where they'll lose their relevance and no longer be an electoral threat?
> 
> how does that work?
> 
> I'm genuinely baffled at some of the logic on display in this thread.


Perhaps if you engage brain what currently baffles you will become clear.


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> Cameron will be lucky not to be out on his arse either way but defo gone on a leave vote,  though who ever picks up after caretaker is managing a wounded beast 17 majority before this started,  but you seem strangely to have reached a different conclusion as to what will win out - managed xenophobia or managed capital





free spirit said:


> Have I? Please do enlighten me about the conclusion I've reached.



So I've been through it and you do bang on about the immigration lead leaving repeatedly even at one stage pointing out, correctly, that points based is lifted straight from UKIP manifesto.  There are two types of leave inside the single market which managed capital would prefer and outside (the managed xenophobia) where you can do that type of thing with immigration. You get round the problem of the remainers outnumbering the leavers even within Tory MP's (168/131) with a 'ah but there will be a snap election which will bolster this paths numbers.'   They would need the support of 100 hundred opposition MP's to call the election in the first place.

The logic of a lame government, (with a replacement PM who would be little better or worse than the current one) limping on til 2020 implementing very little beyond a single market leave seems far more likely than either UKIP capturing the Tory party or Corbyn considing his well oiled machine up to an election in the near future.





free spirit said:


> You expect that winning the EU referrendum will in some way disempower the eurosceptic right (who've just won the referendum) to the point where they'll lose their relevance and no longer be an electoral threat?
> 
> how does that work?
> 
> I'm genuinely baffled at some of the logic on display in this thread.



Realistically, either way their support does not dissipate readily. A Leave vote that doesn't tackle immigration and they scream betrayal and keep fighting. A Remain vote, that's within 10 points on high turn out -well that sounds similar to what happened to the SNP in Scotland....

Remain though, and  UKIP maintains its principle source of funding (through the EU parliament) which it loses through Leave....

I also think UKIP will split.  Nuttall takes over from Farage and they chase after the Labour heartlands.  Farage postures about doing a Bepo Grillo type party at which stage I think the Tories will buy him off with a seat in Commons/Lords


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)




----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


>



Footie's started.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

gosub said:


> Realistically, either way their support does not dissipate readily. A Leave vote that doesn't tackle immigration and they scream betrayal and keep fighting. A Remain vote, that's within 10 points on high turn out -well that sounds similar to what happened to the SNP in Scotland....
> 
> Remain though, and  UKIP maintains its principle source of funding (through the EU parliament) which it loses through Leave....
> 
> I also think UKIP will split.  Nuttall takes over from Farage and they chase after the Labour heartlands.  Farage postures about doing a Bepo Grillo type party at which stage I think the Tories will buy him off with a seat in Commons/Lords



The plan seems to be to rebrand the party and introduce internal democracy through internet voting etc for members like with the Beppe Grillo party. Who knows, it might even work to an extent although there are only so many British gamergaters/Breitbart types who they could integrate into some kind of online platform. The obvious move that UKIP could make is to emulate Trump and the Front National and pitch to Labour voters by integrating anti-immigrant sentiment with a defence of the welfare state or similar. They already campaign on that basis in parts of the North, I think that their leadership is too ideologically committed to neoliberalism to sign off on that though.


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2016)

J Ed said:


> The plan seems to be to rebrand the party and introduce internal democracy through internet voting etc for members like with the Beppe Grillo party. Who knows, it might even work to an extent although there are only so many British gamergaters/Breitbart types who they could integrate into some kind of online platform. The obvious move that UKIP could make is to emulate Trump and the Front National and pitch to Labour voters by integrating anti-immigrant sentiment with a defence of the welfare state or similar. They already campaign on that basis in parts of the North, I think that their leadership is too ideologically committed to neoliberalism to sign off on that though.



The Beppo Grillo is Farage's work around for an NEC thats losing faith in him.  Thing earlier in one of the threads about Hamilton getting ready to support Nuttall  leadership bid (think he would make more sense, if they to go after the Labour heartlands).  Can't see Mr Farage hanging around if that happens...


ps the plan link is to poll tweet


----------



## J Ed (Jun 11, 2016)

Corrected now


----------



## coley (Jun 11, 2016)

free spirit said:


> well, I get no subsidy from the EU, which I thought was the question.
> 
> The EU's actually imposed trade tariffs that have raised the cost of chinese panel imports, but I suppose we benefit from having no tarriffs between us an Europe.
> 
> ...



I have some sympathy for your position on a purely environmentalist platform, but look at Germany,which still has the dirtiest coal burning energy sector in The EU, it also has a steel and aluminium industry plus being the largest car manufacturer in the EU, I could go on, but do you see a pattern emerging?
ETA, I think there are many who fear an even bigger economic "chaos" in the EU if we leave, and they have their arses sitting  in Berlin and Paris.
 As for "survival" we managed to survive our turbulent departure from the ERM ( which we entered, courtesy of Remain stalwart John Major) and we remain *relatively* unscathed (compared to the poorer parts of the EU) after 2008 due to us not being in the EURO.
Which, if you would care to consider/remember, is that all of the heavyweight economists, think tanks, et al who told is we would be courting disaster by not joining the Euro are now telling us it will mean economic disaster if we leave the EU! 
Forgive my cynicism, but self interest on the part of the " sneering elites" seems to be a major part of the 'remain' camp.


----------



## coley (Jun 11, 2016)

binka said:


> Finally after 100+ pages someone relates the real tragedy that could unfold - 73 politicians might lose their jobs


73 politicians could lose their jobs? And that's a tragedy? 
Fair enough, if the odd, very odd, decent politician loses their job, it would be a loss, but for most it would be a relief on the public purse!


----------



## Sue (Jun 11, 2016)

I think binka was taking the piss...


----------



## coley (Jun 12, 2016)

Sue said:


> I think binka was taking the piss...


It's late, long day and half a bottle of lidls best white


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 12, 2016)

Cameron this morning now warning on the dangers of exit to public finances and pensions. And that leaving the EU will create a 'lost decade'.

Well, the working class have had about 3 lost decades because of neoliberalism, cuts and austerity, loss of industry and privatisation, banking and financial improprietary.

What the fuck do you even know or care you privileged, rich Eton cunt?!


----------



## J Ed (Jun 12, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Cameron this morning now warning on the dangers of exit to public finances and pensions. And that leaving the EU will create a 'lost decade'.
> 
> Well, the working class have had about 3 lost decades because of neoliberalism, cuts and austerity, loss of industry and privatisation, banking and financial improprietary.
> 
> What the fuck do you even know or care you privileged, rich Eton cunt?!



Yes, I think that they forget when they threaten us with a worse future that we have already resigned ourselves to that fact long ago.


----------



## FiFi (Jun 12, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Cameron this morning now warning on the dangers of exit to public finances and pensions. And that leaving the EU will create a 'lost decade'.
> 
> Well, the working class have had about 3 lost decades because of neoliberalism, cuts and austerity, loss of industry and privatisation, banking and financial improprietary.
> 
> What the fuck do you even know or care you privileged, rich Eton cunt?!



The Bastards have already frozen my wages for more years than I can remember, AND reduced the value of my pension (as well as extending the date I can claim it by about 2 decades!)
I'm not expecting either side to improve things for me, just that one side will make things worse by sending home all my EU nursing colleagues that have arrived in the last decade.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2016)

FiFi said:


> sending home all my EU nursing colleagues that have arrived in the last decade.



This is _not_ going to happen, ffs! Why do people keep saying this shit?


----------



## FiFi (Jun 12, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> This is _not_ going to happen, ffs! Why do people keep saying this shit?


Because we've been told it will by campaigners!
You must admit it's getting difficult for those of us with even a passing interest in politics to know what is true and what isn't?

Also, isn't there a pay rate at which people ARE to be sent home. If it is to be set at £30.000 + it will mean the majority of Nurses are included because  Nurse on Band 5, and the majority on Band 6 earn below this. The only Nurses allowed to remain in the country would be at Senior practitioner level (Ward leader and above) and  Nurse Managers.
So, maybe not all, but certainly the vast majority, especially those you will interact with on a day-to-day basis on the ward and clinics


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2016)

FiFi said:


> Because we've been told it will by campaigners!



Name them.



> Also, isn't there a pay rate at which people ARE to be sent home.



No.


----------



## FiFi (Jun 12, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Name them.
> 
> 
> 
> *No.*



Well, I'm glad about that. I don't think our wards could function with even fewer Nurses!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 12, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No.



?



> From 6 April all skilled workers from outside the EU who have been living here for less than 10 years will need to earn at least £35,000 a year to settle permanently in the UK. Some jobs, such as nurses, are exempt (see How the rules are changing, right) but Frazier’s is not. Unless she gets a higher-paid job, she will be deported in September.



The non-EU workers who’ll be deported for earning less than £35,000

doesn't apply to nurses, but people are being sent home as Fifi said surely.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 12, 2016)

There was an income, quoted by government, below which people would be deemed unable to look after their families, but I think it applied to rest of world migrants rather than EU. It was quite high also, perhaps higher than average income.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But this has nothing at all to do with the referendum - and was, in fact, introduced by the stay supporters. I repeat, it has nothing to do with the referendum or its outcome.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> But this has nothing at all to do with the referendum - and was, in fact, introduced by the stay supporters. I repeat, it has nothing to do with the referendum or its outcome.



No, indeed, was just a reply to FiFi's question about whether some workers are already going to have to leave.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The non-EU workers who’ll be deported for earning less than £35,000
> 
> doesn't apply to nurses, but people are being sent home as Fifi said surely.



Nothing to do with the EU referendum and happening despite being in then.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 12, 2016)

Yep, down to the wonderful tory government.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're correct there is this shitty rule for non-EU migrants. But FiFi was specifically talking about nurses, as you say. I also seriously doubt this rules will apply to EU migrants who are already settled here when and if we leave the EU. There is far too much to lose in terms of our relationship with other European countries.


----------



## FiFi (Jun 12, 2016)

To be honest, I'm not very confident in the future of the NHS in either case, Leave or Remain.
I don't trust any of them to maintain it, and many of the general public are not aware of how it is being carved up and flogged off now! 



ItWillNeverWork said:


> You're correct there is this shitty rule for non-EU migrants. But FiFi was specifically talking about nurses, as you say. I also *seriously doubt* this rules will apply to EU migrants who are already settled here when and if we leave the EU. There is far too much to lose in terms of our relationship with other European countries.


But you can't be sure, nobody can.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jun 12, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You're correct there is this shitty rule for non-EU migrants. But FiFi was specifically talking about nurses, as you say. I also seriously doubt this rules will apply to EU migrants who are already settled here when and if we leave the EU. There is far too much to lose in terms of our relationship with other European countries.


And yet the Brexiters seem to say that their aim is to level the playing field between EU and non-EU migrants


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2016)

FiFi said:


> To be honest, I'm not very confident in the future of the NHS in either case, Leave or Remain.
> I don't trust any of them to maintain it, and many of the general public are not aware of how it is being carved up and flogged off now!
> 
> 
> But you can't be sure, nobody can.



We can't be sure of 80% of the claims made in this debate unfortunately. I guess this is why it is becoming such a divisive issue.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2016)

Duncan2 said:


> And yet the Brexiters seem to say that their aim is to level the playing field between EU and non-EU migrants



Which doesn't necessarily imply retrospectively denying UK-based EU citizens the right to settle. My guess it would apply to new applicants though.


----------



## FiFi (Jun 12, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> We can't be sure of 80% of the claims made in this debate unfortunately. I guess this is why it is becoming such a divisive issue.


I never thought I'd say it, but I may just stay at home on the 23rd. 
And I've voted in every election since I was 18yrs old, even the EU ones!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 12, 2016)

Duncan2 said:


> And yet the Brexiters seem to say that their aim is to level the playing field between EU and non-EU migrants


Really "the Brexiters" say that do they? All of them? 

FFS can we just go one day without people coming out with this crap.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> It's horrible on a friday  night when free spirit is _researching _- this might help though.


What a nightmare! Essentially that reads like a very remainarian piece from FitzGibbon.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jun 12, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Really "the Brexiters" say that do they? All of them?
> 
> FFS can we just go one day without people coming out with this crap.


I count myself as a Brexiter but I still wonder whether there might not be some practical difficulty in determining who is and isn't a 'UK-based EU migrant given the extent of the coming and going that inevitably goes on and the temporary nature of much of the available work.Otherwise I do agree generally with the impatience expressed redsquirrel.


----------



## coley (Jun 12, 2016)

two sheds said:


> ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is government policy, not the stated policy of those wanting to leave, and why does it apply to only non EU immigrants?


----------



## coley (Jun 12, 2016)

I see we are going to get another round of dire warnings from the IMF, Osbourne and other sundry self serving groups, bring it on, seems, given the poll results of the last week, most are seeing straight through their self serving 'warnings'
And most political analysts reckon, win or lose, a close result will finish Cameron and Osborne, happy days


----------



## weltweit (Jun 12, 2016)

coley said:


> I see we are going to get another round of dire warnings from the IMF, Osbourne and other sundry self serving groups, bring it on, seems, given the poll results of the last week, most are seeing straight through their self serving 'warnings'
> And most political analysts reckon, win or lose, a close result will finish Cameron and Osborne, happy days


I think it is a little unfair your "self serving groups", don't you think every one who by now has a pro or anti position has worked out what it means to them and therefore why they have their own position?

What interests me is that if the audience of the ITV and QT debates last week were anything to go by, a lot of people have not yet made their minds up and I am not clear what is required to help them come to a decision?


----------



## coley (Jun 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I think it is a little unfair your "self serving groups", don't you think every one who by now has a pro or anti position has worked out what it means to them and therefore why they have their own position?
> 
> What interests me is that if the audience of the ITV and QT debates last week were anything to go by, a lot of people have not yet made their minds up and I am not clear what is required to help them come to a decision?



The ruling classes,the political, financial establishments are shyting their collective pants at the thought of us leaving, the WC have nothing left to lose so they are in a mood to give the 'sneering elites' a bloody nose, and that bloody nose is long overdue.
The fact that Corbyn,who has long held a dislike of the EU is (even half heartily) trying to support the remain party gives you an indication of the fear the 'establishment' has of seeing their gravy train hitting the buffers of public distrust, and aye, even hatred.


----------



## coley (Jun 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I think it is a little unfair your "self serving groups", don't you think every one who by now has a pro or anti position has worked out what it means to them and therefore why they have their own position?
> 
> What interests me is that if the audience of the ITV and QT debates last week were anything to go by, a lot of people have not yet made their minds up and I am not clear what is required to help them come to a decision?


I think a lot of people have made up their minds but just don't want to admit it in public, for fear of pressure from the opponents of their views, the evening of the 23d will well be worth waiting up for


----------



## weltweit (Jun 12, 2016)

coley said:


> The ruling classes,the political, financial establishments are shyting their collective pants at the thought of us leaving, the WC have nothing left to lose so they are in a mood to give the 'sneering elites' a bloody nose, and that bloody nose is long overdue.


I don't count myself as part of the ruling classes but I see my future as part of a wider Europe.


coley said:


> The fact that Corbyn,who has long held a dislike of the EU is (even half heartily) trying to support the remain party gives you an indication of the fear the 'establishment' has of seeing their gravy train hitting the buffers of public distrust, and aye, even hatred.


And I don't see the EU as a gravy train.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 12, 2016)

coley said:


> I think a lot of people have made up their minds but just don't want to admit it in public, for fear of pressure from the opponents of their views, the evening of the 23d will well be worth waiting up for


I actually haven't found people being shy about their voting intentions.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> And I don't see the EU as a gravy train.


Its the same the whole world over,
Its the poor wot gets the blame,
While the rich gets all the gravy,
Aint it a bleedin shame,


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 12, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I actually haven't found people being shy about their voting intentions.


This is why i love you. You twat.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 13, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Really "the Brexiters" say that do they? All of them?
> 
> FFS can we just go one day without people coming out with this crap.



That is Leaves position. Some 'get the 'best' from the world' horseshit. It stands at odds with what many leave voters interpret 'controlling immigration' as. 

It will mean a contraction of the economy unless the unemployed are coerced into those jobs the less well paid EU migrants do now. Or it means business as usual.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 13, 2016)

Really that's the position of the RMT? That is the position of all of those on U75 who have stated that they will vote leave?

Well your position must be in favour of shipping refugees to Turkey, in favour of allowing human rights abuses against Roma, in favour of ever increasing neo-liberalism, in favour of imposing austerity on Greece, Spain, Italy etc


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 13, 2016)

Liberals have really fucked up any opportunity that the left might have had to fight and centre the referendum on anti-neoliberal, pro-worker grounds.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 13, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Really that's the position of the RMT? That is the position of all of those on U75 who have stated that they will vote leave?
> 
> Well your position must be in favour of shipping refugees to Turkey, in favour of allowing human rights abuses against Roma, in favour of ever increasing neo-liberalism, in favour of imposing austerity on Greece, Spain, Italy etc



I'm not on the Facespace so I wouldn't be able to do this, but someone should make up a graphic listing all the reactionary and authoritarian things the EU has overseen/implemented. Maybe Urbs can start one of these 'meme' wotsits the yoot are all on about these days. The idea that the EU is 'progressive' in any shape or form should be challenged.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 13, 2016)

coley said:


> And most political analysts reckon, win or lose, a close result will finish Cameron and Osborne, happy days



I'd rather they stayed in place, damaged and ineffective, a fucking liability for the Tories. A new broom might get away with all kinds of shit during their honeymoon period.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 13, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Really that's the position of the RMT? That is the position of all of those on U75 who have stated that they will vote leave?
> 
> Well your position must be in favour of shipping refugees to Turkey, in favour of allowing human rights abuses against Roma, in favour of ever increasing neo-liberalism, in favour of imposing austerity on Greece, Spain, Italy etc



I think I missed the bit where anyone on the Leave side suggested we would do anything but turn our back even further on those things. 

It's like top trumps this argument. Shout 'Greece' loud enough and angrily enough and all other arguments about the best we can get disappear.

It's true that the Remain side has lacked a coherent voice of any sort that seeks to address the maldistribution of resources though and for that reason it's going to lose and any progressive aspects of the EUs work with it.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 13, 2016)

Donald Tusk: Brexit could destroy Western political civilisation - BBC News

more reasons to leave -  brexit could end Western political civilization


----------



## teqniq (Jun 13, 2016)

Hahaha. They are not doing themselves any favours with shit like that are they?


----------



## free spirit (Jun 13, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> It's like top trumps this argument. Shout 'Greece' loud enough and angrily enough and all other arguments about the best we can get disappear.


The fact that the EU can't do that to the UK doesn't seem to be worth a mention either.

Vote leave to stop the EU doing something to us that they already can't do to us (but that the Tories are already doing voluntarily anyway).


----------



## J Ed (Jun 13, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> That is Leaves position. Some 'get the 'best' from the world' horseshit. It stands at odds with what many leave voters interpret 'controlling immigration' as.
> 
> It will mean a contraction of the economy unless the unemployed are coerced into those jobs the less well paid EU migrants do now. Or it means business as usual.



Isn't the unemployed being coerced into low paid, often sub-minimum wage, jobs the current state of affairs anyway? Forgive me if that's your original point anyway.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 13, 2016)

free spirit said:


> The fact that the EU can't do that to the UK doesn't seem to be worth a mention either.
> 
> Vote leave to stop the EU doing something to us that they already can't do to us (but that the Tories are already doing voluntarily anyway).


And your idea is to stay in and moan at them?
"You have lost a good opportunity to shut up. We are sick of you criticising us and telling us what to do. You say you hate the euro and now you want to interfere in our meetings"
It don't have to be the same tac-tic they used on greece.
We've already been slung out


----------



## J Ed (Jun 13, 2016)




----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 13, 2016)

in what way would leaving the EU benefit murdoch's business interests?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 13, 2016)

I am wondering the same thing.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 13, 2016)

He likes to be on the winning side.


----------



## agricola (Jun 13, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in what way would leaving the EU benefit murdoch's business interests?



In what way would it hurt them?


----------



## gosub (Jun 13, 2016)

God,  just got shared the Brown at Coventry cathedral... Brown the man who signed Lisbon treaty but not together coz he knew he was naughty, highlighting a war  atrocity that could replicated by the wrong vote  in a plebiscite (why else did he deprive the public of a say?) .   Leaving is leading.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 13, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in what way would leaving the EU benefit murdoch's business interests?


Wasn't he reported as saying when he spoke Westminster took note, but Brussels just ignored him!


----------



## coley (Jun 13, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I'd rather they stayed in place, damaged and ineffective, a fucking liability for the Tories. A new broom might get away with all kinds of shit during their honeymoon period.


Aye there is that, the pair of them hanging on,getting slagged off by all and sundry, it's a comforting thought


----------



## coley (Jun 13, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I don't count myself as part of the ruling classes but I see my future as part of a wider Europe.
> 
> And I don't see the EU as a gravy train.


Only because you and I and untold millions will never be given a ticket for that particular train.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 13, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Isn't the unemployed being coerced into low paid, often sub-minimum wage, jobs the current state of affairs anyway? Forgive me if that's your original point anyway.



If leave succeeded in ushering in a new era of migration in tens of thousands there there would be many low paid jobs unfilled. Pay could rise to attract staff but more likely the coercion on those not working would increase to take crap pay.

The other alternative is to shrink the economy so the reserve army stays the same, but the whole farce is built on growth.

So most likely immigration would at least stay nearly the same or even rise as special interest groups lobby for staff like curry chefs which apparently is a job you have to be borne into. Given the ability of bureaucracy to fuck up immigration it could well rise.

Remain needed to have a stance on immigration which could have started with housing citizens, promoting social housing and should have involved banning any more buy to let ever. But of course little chance and the public see that it doesn't add up.


----------



## treelover (Jun 14, 2016)

> *Corbyn to flex Labour’s muscles as alarm grows over EU referendum *
> 
> 
> Labour grandees who have held cabinet and shadow cabinet positions, including Charles Clarke, Ed Balls, Charlie Falconer, Harriet Harman, Alan Johnson, Jacqui Smith, Alan Milburn and Jack Straw, also released a joint statement warning that leaving the EU would hit public services and frontline workers.
> ...



Why on earth do they think most of the lot will make any impact with working class old labour who had given up on the Blairites, etc.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 14, 2016)

Still don't think remain will win. Think we are still at the protest stage and the status quo option will become the safe option as the day approaches. It's not so much that, ahem, 'project fear' will make converts, just sow enough doubt. Perhaps see the polls floating back to small leads for remain in the last 5 days, followed by a clear victory in the ballot (who knows, 54-46?).

Having said all that, brexit are ahead on most of the polls in the last 3 weeks (scroll down the link):

Opinion polling for the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2016)

If this doesn't clinch it nothing will . The dirty , disgusting Teutonic bastard .



Actual real proper " arsebiscuits " 

Mein gott . Sodom und Gomorrah .


----------



## two sheds (Jun 14, 2016)

Good (i.e. cynical) reasoning by Cameron by the way - how do we get the oldies' vote? Pensions will be threatened if we leave.


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2016)

Stop deflecting the issue . You saw what that German just did .


----------



## two sheds (Jun 14, 2016)

what?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 14, 2016)

Pretty much.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 14, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Stop deflecting the issue . You saw what that German just did .


I'm sure he'll let you have a sniff.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 14, 2016)

the odds for brexit are plummeting. on matchbook a few weeks ago it was 15/4 (4.75). dropped a bit when the purdah thing started, slowly declined since then. was about 7/4 (2.75) four hours ago, 8/5 (2.6) now.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 14, 2016)

2.59 now.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 14, 2016)

2.55


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 14, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> I think I missed the bit where anyone on the Leave side suggested we would do anything but turn our back even further on those things.


The RMT have, posters on U75 have. The mainstream Vote Leave haven't of course but to pretend that these people are the only Leave voices is as stupid as pretending that the only Remain voices are Cameron, Blair, the CBI etc.

To dismiss all those that will vote for leave as stupid racists is a pathetic trick by liberal wankers.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 14, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> The RMT have, posters on U75 have. The mainstream Vote Leave haven't of course but to pretend that these people are the only Leave voices is as stupid as pretending that the only Remain voices are Cameron, Blair, the CBI etc.
> 
> To dismiss all those that will vote for leave as stupid racists is a pathetic trick by liberal wankers.



I agree. It's about as crass as portraying support for the EU as solely support for neoliberalism. 

The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.

If any of the things you care about are advanced by the massive shot in the arm for right wing politics Brexit would be then frankly I'll be very happy and surprised. I suspect though it means even bigger debt, more austerity, harsher rules, more inequality, more populist solutions.

But for the hard of thinking liberal wankers on here take us around the block again on how this massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot please. I utterly accept why people are pissed off and why they want to give two fingers to the establishment.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.



Some of us have put forward arguments for pro-left exit (or at least, why this pro-EU positioning isn't all its cracked up to be). If anything, it has been the liberals on here just lazily going down the BUT bad Tories/Farage/Gove/Racists/Galloway without really offering any more deeper critiques (not all, I've seen some excellent pro-left remain, or at least anti-leave arguments too).

After all, let's look at some of your considered analysis:


Mr Moose said:


> Yep and anyone from the left campaigning for exit is a dimwit.





Mr Moose said:


> True, but being in the EU isn't going to make it even worse for anyone in the UK whereas leaving might.





Mr Moose said:


> Which is why you need to suck it up and vote to remain.





Mr Moose said:


> I don't give a shit and I'm not listening.
> 
> Much as I liked him I don't care if we cede sovereignty over the distribution of frozen sheep carcasses or whatever. The stuff that matters, education, health, defence and yes immigration is down to us to solve still.





Mr Moose said:


> If the old folk knew anything then maybe they would have stopped reading the Express and the Mail for their daily dose of bile. The politics of the right inclined over 50s is a 'down with that sort of thing' two fingers up to 'political correctness' or 'health and safety' new things and foreign things. The poorer ones are throwing in their lot with belligerent politicians like Boris and Farage who would not piss on them if they were on fire.





Mr Moose said:


> That is Leaves position. Some 'get the 'best' from the world' horseshit. It stands at odds with what many leave voters interpret 'controlling immigration' as.
> 
> It will mean a contraction of the economy unless the unemployed are coerced into those jobs the less well paid EU migrants do now. Or it means business as usual.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.



No.  I mean yes, I get fed up with the scattergun name calling, but the debate here is far from feeble.

I still don't know which way to vote, and have been arguing Out with Inners and In with Outers, to explore as many avenues as possible.  In almost every conversation I'm told I'm raising issues no-one has raised before, asking questions that cause confusion because they're not being discussed elsewhere.  Not being obsessed with immigration helps, of course, but tmm the debate here is far more comprehensive than most people are being exposed to.


----------



## Whagwan (Jun 14, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Wasn't he reported as saying when he spoke Westminster took note, but Brussels just ignored him!



Yup:  This terrifying Rupert Murdoch quote is possibly the best reason to stay in the EU yet


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 14, 2016)

It's not for me to call myself socrates...


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

<looks up socrates>
<reads the following>


> Through his portrayal in Plato's dialogues, Socrates has become renowned for his contribution to the field of ethics, and it is this Platonic Socrates who lends his name to the concepts of Socratic irony and the Socratic method, or _elenchus_. The latter remains a commonly used tool in a wide range of discussions, and is a type of pedagogy in which a series of questions is asked not only to draw individual answers, but also to encourage fundamental insight into the issue at hand. Plato's Socrates also made important and lasting contributions to the field of epistemology, and his ideologies and approach have proven a strong foundation for much Western philosophy that has followed.


<gives up>

if that was a crack at me I'm sure it was well deserved


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Some of us have put forward arguments for pro-left exit (or at least, why this pro-EU positioning isn't all its cracked up to be). If anything, it has been the liberals on here just lazily going down the BUT bad Tories/Farage/Gove/Racists/Galloway without really offering any more deeper critiques (not all, I've seen some excellent pro-left remain, or at least anti-leave arguments too).
> 
> After all, let's look at some of your considered analysis:



Guilty as charged. I apologise for the more intemperate tones.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

Whagwan said:


> Yup:  This terrifying Rupert Murdoch quote is possibly the best reason to stay in the EU yet



TERRIFYING!11!!11

Jesus.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> TERRIFYING!11!!11
> 
> Jesus.



They probably couldn't decide between that and ''This HILARIOUS quote will leave you giggling all day'


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 14, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> I agree. It's about as crass as portraying support for the EU as solely support for neoliberalism.
> 
> The level of argument here is feeble. Every so often one of you shouts 'liberal wanker' as if that is the argument to win all arguments.
> 
> ...


There's a whole of snide assumptions and dishonesty in this post.

First of all the use of _support_ in the 1st paragraph, where support has become (either deliberately or accidentally I'm not sure) a synonym for _voting remain_. This is absolute nonsense, as much nonsense as arguing that because people vote Tory/Labour/LibDem/etc they don't support the re-nationalisation of the railways. Or that if people voted Labour in 2005 they must have Iraq War supporters. Many (most?) Remain voters, and certainly most of those on the Left don't _support_ the EU at all, they simple consider staying in the EU a better alternative than leaving.

It's for that reason that I haven't simply called everyone who has said they support Remain liberal wankers. I (and I'm not alone here) have repeatedly said that I believe there are arguments for voting remain from a left wing basis. I think they are wrong, but I don't think the people holding such a viewpoint are liberals or wankers or stupid. I've certainly called some Remain supporters liberals (and I stand by those comments) but's because of the reasons they are arguing for a Remain vote not because they are arguing for a Remain vote alone.

As for the last paragraph, well I've not seen anyone on U75 argue that a successful Leave vote is going to be a "massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot". What I have seen people argue is that it will disrupt capital, and that opens up possibilities for labour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> There's a whole of snide assumptions and dishonesty in this post.
> 
> First of all the use of _support_ in the 1st paragraph, where support has become (either deliberately or accidentally I'm not sure) a synonym for _voting remain_. This is absolute nonsense, as much nonsense as arguing that because people vote Tory/Labour/LibDem/etc they don't support the re-nationalisation of the railways. Or that if people voted Labour in 2005 they must have Iraq War supporters. Many (most?) Remain voters, and certainly most of those on the Left don't _support_ the EU at all, they simple consider staying in the EU a better alternative than leaving.
> 
> ...


to be fair i thought it was one of his better posts


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 14, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> As for the last paragraph, well I've not seen anyone on U75 argue that a successful Leave vote is going to be a "massive blow to the status quo is going to put neo-liberalism on the back foot". What I have seen people argue is that it will disrupt capital, and that opens up possibilities for labour.



The trouble is labour (or indeed the Labour party) hasn't got the solidarity to capitalise on any shocks to the system it needs to rewrite the narrative. The support base for the left over the last 30 years has practically died. The most we've managed was a few weeks of protesting outside St Pauls with Occupy but theres been no changes. 

The overwhelming picture I'm seeing is of a country sliding ever further to the right and towards domination by the elite few, businesses and politicians and media barons calling the shots and I can only see that getting worse should Leave win.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

To be clear about what is meant by 'disrupt capital', this presumably means, among other things, economic recession and people losing their jobs. Aside from the individual hardship this entails, is that opening up possibilities for labour, or closing them off? 

It seems painfully simplistic to me to say 'bosses want it therefore we shouldn't'.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 14, 2016)

Union leaders emphasise the three main reasons to vote Remain in EU referendum

Vote for jobs. Vote for protections at work. And vote for a better future for your family. Vote Remain on June 23.

*Frances O’Grady, General Secretary, Trades Union Congress*

*Len McCluskey, General Secretary, UNITE*

*Dave Prentis, General Secretary, UNISON*

*Tim Roache, General Secretary, GMB*

*John Hannett, General Secretary, Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers*

*Cathy Warwick, Chief Executive, Royal College of Midwives*

*Roy Rickhuss, General Secretary, Community*

*Dave Ward, Communication Workers Union*

*Manuel Cortes, Transport Salaried Staffs Association*

*Gerry Morrissey, General Secretary, Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Union*

*John Smith, General Secretary, Musician’s Union*

*Brian Rye – General Secretary of UCATT*


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

Alternatively... ASLEF, BFAWU, RMT - rmt




			
				RMT said:
			
		

> Joint Union Statement Supporting a Leave Vote
> 
> A united Labour Movement
> 
> ...


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

And whilst a member of Unison myself, I'd rather wish it was more like RMT and ASLEF for various reasons.


----------



## belboid (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Alternatively... ASLEF, BFAWU, RMT - rmt


 which is a pretty good statement, apart from the bizarre beginning 'Look, some famous dead people would very probably have supported us'


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


>



yeh. but bookmakers odds are at least in part determined by people shovelling money on. and if you can get better odds on brexit then people will chuck a few quid on there.


----------



## Santino (Jun 14, 2016)

I was in a work-related meeting yesterday that had quite a few junior members of the Establishment in it*. One of them said he did not know anyone whose opinion he respected who was intending to vote Leave. Several of them seemed utterly baffled at the idea that anyone with a working brain could consider voting anything other than Remain. They seemed to think it was all to do with a fear of immigrants.

* E.g. an investment banker, a former diplomat, a TV producer, a retired academic - that sort.


----------



## nuffsaid (Jun 14, 2016)

Brexit Land - I'm really wanting someone to make a spoof of Brexit using the music to Soft Cell's 'Bedsit Land'.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

Santino said:


> I was in a work-related meeting yesterday that had quite a few junior members of the Establishment in it*. One of them said he did not know anyone whose opinion he respected who was intending to vote Leave. Several of them seemed utterly baffled at the idea that anyone with a working brain could consider voting anything other than Remain. They seemed to think it was all to do with a fear of immigrants.
> 
> * E.g. an investment banker, a former diplomat, a TV producer, a retired academic - that sort.



It's increasingly obvious that this vote has become a vote on the status quo. Are you reasonably content with your lot in Britain 2016? You will probably vote remain. Otherwise you are likely not to give a shit about threats of the worse future for you and your kids that you have already resigned yourself to.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

Santino said:


> I was in a work-related meeting yesterday that had quite a few junior members of the Establishment in it*. One of them said he did not know anyone whose opinion he respected who was intending to vote Leave. Several of them seemed utterly baffled at the idea that anyone with a working brain could consider voting anything other than Remain. They seemed to think it was all to do with a fear of immigrants.
> 
> * E.g. an investment banker, a former diplomat, a TV producer, a retired academic - that sort.


the left exit case hasn't had a look in. Thats why some folk get to paint all leavers as thick racist proley cunts who haven't thought it through.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

if by some miracle we do vote leave the acceptable bigotry of bashing the w/c that liberals like so much will reach fever pitch and the memes produced will break the internet.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> the left exit case hasn't had a look in. Thats why some folk get to paint all leavers as thick racist proley cunts who haven't thought it through.



Not really surprising though is it? Suits almost all political parties to pretend that left critiques of the EU don't exist.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> if by some miracle we do vote leave the acceptable bigotry of bashing the w/c that liberals like so much will reach fever pitch and the memes produced will break the internet.



I genuinely believe that the primary motivation of a lot of the anti-Brexit people is the chance to punch down at working-class voters, they enjoy that far more than they care about the EU. If that wasn't the case then they would at least pretend not to be bigots because it is so obvious that this sneering is driving a not inconsiderable amount of the leave vote.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

'we'll come for your pensions' is another great one. I didn't hear it but ma said she heard vague pension related threats on the wireless. This is why we need credit unions. I wouldn't trust them to go shop and get me a bag of sweets without swindling me some how


----------



## teqniq (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I genuinely believe that the primary motivation of a lot of the anti-Brexit people is the chance to punch down at working-class voters, they enjoy that far more than they care about the EU. If that wasn't the case then they would at least pretend not to be bigots because it is so obvious that this sneering is driving a not inconsiderable amount of the leave vote.


With this in mind have a look at this charming individual:

Labour unrest in France needs to be defeated to avoid another financial crash

Cross-posted on Nuit Debout thread


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

teqniq said:


> With this in mind have a look at this charming individual:
> 
> Labour unrest in France needs to be defeated to avoid another financial crash



Fucking hell, but then...



			
				Indie said:
			
		

> Satyajit Das writes the Das Capital Column in The Independent. He has worked in financial markets for over 35 years, as a banker, a corporate treasurer and now as a consultant.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm tending towards a "Remain" vote.

Not because I agree with the arguments put forward for it. I tend to agree with the "Left Exit" arguments, if anything, though frankly I'm not hugely convinced by them either.

No, I'm tending towards "Remain" because I don't think there are any "left" or pro-working class forces in position to exploit or take advantage of any cracks opened up by disruption to capital that might be cause by exit. There are however plenty of anti-working class and right-wing forces ready and waiting to leap in. I'm not sure I want to give them the chance whilst we are so unprepared.

...but that's just my thoughts right now. I'm not convinced I'm right.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

I did a yougov survey yesterday which asked me the usual questions asked on the EU Ref with a few extra ones that I thought were interesting. They asked whether I thought there was a chance that the EU Ref would be rigged and whether Mi5 were actively working against Brexit.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I did a yougov survey yesterday which asked me the usual questions asked on the EU Ref with a few extra ones that I thought were interesting. They asked whether I thought there was a chance that the EU Ref would be rigged and whether Mi5 were actively working against Brexit.



Ooh. I've not had that one!


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> I don't think there are any "left" or pro-working class forces in position to exploit or take advantage of any cracks opened up by disruption to capital that might be cause by exit.



The fact this particular argument for leaving tends to be expressed using this kind of language is a clue that it's pie in the sky. "Cracks opened up by disruption to capital" - what does this translate to in the real world? Why use these vague terms instead of giving specific examples.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> The fact this particular argument for leaving tends to be expressed using this kind of language is a clue that it's pie in the sky. "Cracks opened up by disruption to capital" - what does this translate to in the real world? Why use these vague terms instead of giving specific examples.


Greece. That's disrupted capital.


----------



## mauvais (Jun 14, 2016)

More a case of where is the precedent for it - what lasting, tangible gains were made by the left during the European debt crisis, for instance? That was disruption to capital in anyone's terms but I don't see the victories.

And whilst we're at it, what gains were made by the right? That seems to have an easier answer.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> I'm tending towards a "Remain" vote.
> 
> Not because I agree with the arguments put forward for it. I tend to agree with the "Left Exit" arguments, if anything, though frankly I'm not hugely convinced by them either.
> 
> ...


<sigh> You put it better than I could but yes, I get convinced by Leave arguments very regularly but always come back to this.   The tiny crack that might open on the left sometime in the future or the huge and very visible chasm on the right, full of slimy things with fangs. <sigh>


----------



## JimW (Jun 14, 2016)

mauvais said:


> More a case of where is the precedent for it - what lasting, tangible gains were made by the left during the European debt crisis, for instance? That was disruption to capital in anyone's terms but I don't see the victories.
> 
> And whilst we're at it, what gains were made by the right? That seems to have an easier answer.


Must be a distinction between disruptions due to capital's own failures and a check to one of.its projects by the exercise of democratic rights, however flawed the process.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> <sigh> You put it better than I could but yes, I get convinced by Leave arguments very regularly but always come back to this.   The tiny crack that might open on the left sometime in the future or the huge and very visible chasm on the right, full of slimy things with fangs. <sigh>



Well the obvious tiny crack here which could lead to a Labour government is the fact that a Leave vote would undoubtedly lead to the ouster of David Cameron though we obviously don't know whether that would lead to new elections or not. I'm not sure if he will be able to stay on either way to be honest, the Tory base and so many Tory MPs are openly baying for his blood. In the event of new elections it is very unlikely that we will get a Labour majority but I do think it is quite likely that the Tories would lose theirs, and in any case having elections before the planned gerrymandering of constituencies would be a significant blow to the Tories.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> There are however plenty of anti-working class and right-wing forces ready and waiting to leap in.


I tend to take the view that the devil is already here. Its why Labour can't get me to vote for them using the same tactic. 'oh but the tories will' they are and would do anyway. And so would you but slower


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well the obvious tiny crack here which could lead to a Labour government is the fact that a Leave vote would undoubtedly lead to the ouster of David Cameron though we obviously don't know whether that would lead to new elections or not. I'm not sure if he will be able to stay on either way to be honest, the Tory base and so many Tory MPs are openly baying for his blood. In the event of new elections it is very unlikely that we will get a Labour majority but I do think it is quite likely that the Tories would lose theirs, and in any case having elections before the planned gerrymandering of constituencies would be a significant blow to the Tories.


I have no real argument with that, I think your prediction is as good as any (although, offtopic, I'm somewhat doubtful the boundaries will really be reorganised, too many vested interest turkeys would have to vote for christmas).

That's the froth on the top though, not 'disruption to capital'.  If I'm honest and I'm trying to be, with myself and thus with you lot, I'm not sure about the concept, what does it really mean?  The debt crisis may have changed the size of the pie, but did it increase the amount of crust taken for social benefit by reducing the juicy slice extracted as profit? Disruption that merely reorganises which bits of capital are profitable isn't much of a prize. 


We're getting closer, I've got a couple more days before I have to make a decision and post it off.  You can throw 'liberal wanker' around as much as you like but can anyone really put some flesh on the bones please.

What does 'disruption to capital' actually mean, how does it provide an advantage, and who for?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well the obvious tiny crack here which could lead to a Labour government is the fact that a Leave vote would undoubtedly lead to the ouster of David Cameron though we obviously don't know whether that would lead to new elections or not. I'm not sure if he will be able to stay on either way to be honest, the Tory base and so many Tory MPs are openly baying for his blood. In the event of new elections it is very unlikely that we will get a Labour majority but I do think it is quite likely that the Tories would lose theirs, and in any case having elections before the planned gerrymandering of constituencies would be a significant blow to the Tories.


Why would there be new elections? Cameron goes, a new person - probably Johnson - takes over. There is precedent, such as Thatcher ousted, that didn't lead to elections, even before fixed terms.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> I have no real argument with that, I think your prediction is as good as any (although, offtopic, I'm somewhat doubtful the boundaries will really be reorganised, too many vested interest turkeys would have to vote for christmas).
> 
> That's the froth on the top though, not 'disruption to capital'.  If I'm honest and I'm trying to be, with myself and thus with you lot, I'm not sure about the concept, what does it really mean?  The debt crisis may have changed the size of the pie, but did it increase the amount of crust taken for social benefit by reducing the juicy slice extracted as profit? Disruption that merely reorganises which bits of capital are profitable isn't much of a prize.
> 
> ...


just been reading this post on the other thread and although I don't agree with the idea that abstention is nobheadish, the right to vote includes the right not to and a plague on both yer houses is valid. But I thought it made some good points.


belboid said:


> Cos at least the fuckers have thought about it and made a decision, rather than pretending that their decision (not to make a decision) is anything other than a useless waste.
> 
> It is a close call between the two choices, in reality. Whilst at a base level, the EU should obviously be rejected - as an enforcer of neoliberalism, and old fashioned plain free trade before '92, as  an undemocratic monolith that cannot be reformed, as an emerging imperialist bloc, as an entity that works to ensure the continued impoverishment and underdevelopment of the third world - there's all that on the one side. And then, there's the fact that even if we vote to reject all that, we will still wake up in a state which is only different in that it is a fading imperialist bloc, rather than an emerging one.  And the EU will offer some _short-term_ protections against the worst of the tories, and at least raises the notion of internationalism and free movement of labour.
> 
> Those of a dithering bent (whether liberal or ultra left variety), might then try and say that' he, that means you should abstain then' - but they ignore the fact that, formally, the vote is not about endorsing the British state, or not, but about remaining in the EU. And as socialist we dont want to remain in 'the EU', so fuck that. vote out. Whichever way the result goes, it will go one way or the other, there can't be a hung referendum result, so it will have an effect. Maybe a remainer beleives it will have only a minimal effect, either now or in the long term, but that is still an effect, and we should vote in whichever way helps develop working class struggle, even if only a tiny bit. And, while you mkight say these same arguments could be made for voting in a GE (and to some extent they CAN), there is a fundamental difference in that there you _are_ voting to endorse a specific party, not just to reject the other(s)


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well the obvious tiny crack here which could lead to a Labour government is the fact that a Leave vote would undoubtedly lead to the ouster of David Cameron though we obviously don't know whether that would lead to new elections or not. I'm not sure if he will be able to stay on either way to be honest, the Tory base and so many Tory MPs are openly baying for his blood. In the event of new elections it is very unlikely that we will get a Labour majority but I do think it is quite likely that the Tories would lose theirs, and in any case having elections before the planned gerrymandering of constituencies would be a significant blow to the Tories.



There's no reason it would lead to new elections. It might lead to Cameron stepping down, but Blair did that without calling an election. Even if it did it seems a bit of a stretch to say 'it's quite likely' to result in the Tories losing their majority.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why would there be new elections? Cameron goes, a new person - probably Johnson - takes over. There is precedent, such as Thatcher ousted, that didn't lead to elections, even before fixed terms.



There wouldn't be, necessarily, but if a new Tory leader took over and didn't hold an early election then it would have a de-legitimising effect just as it did with Brown. Plus, they may well look at the example of Brown (who probably could have won an early election) and decide that it is the least worst option for them electorally.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> There wouldn't be, necessarily, but if a new Tory leader took over and didn't hold an early election then it would have a de-legitimising effect just as it did with Brown. Plus, they may well look at the example of Brown (who probably could have won an early election) and decide that it is the least worst option for them electorally.


Except that there are now fixed terms. You can't just call an election when you want  - there's now a procedure, one that would likely prove fatal to the sitting govt. And Major didn't call an election, neither did Brown, neither did Callaghan. Changing PM mid-term, either voluntarily or through some kind of internal coup, was well-established even before fixed terms, for govts with small, large or non-existent majorities.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> just been reading this post on the other thread and although I don't agree with the idea that abstention is nobheadish, the right to vote includes the right not to and a plague on both yer houses is valid. But I thought it made some good points.



I don't really want to move away from the precise question i asked above, but one way to "_develop working class struggle_" is to make life harder and conditions ever less favourable for the workers.  Not sure I want to sign up for that project.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Except that there are now fixed terms. You can't just call an election when you want



You can if you get a no confidence vote or a two thirds vote in the Commons.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> You can if you get a no confidence vote or a two thirds vote in the Commons.


So you limp into the election and lose it. You can't call an election without first undermining your own administration and admitting crisis. What govt would do that?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> I don't really want to move away from the precise question i asked above, but one way to "_develop working class struggle_" is to make life harder and conditions ever less favourable for the workers.  Not sure I want to sign up for that project.


yes thats the fourth horseman, the threat of penury and the bonfire of workers rights. Well, as before the tories are bulling through an anti union bill. Has the EU spoken up for the rights of workers here? The financial crash that is predicted to be on the way by worried heads in articles I've read won't be because of leaving the EU. It'll be because none of the things that caused the last crash were rectified. Certainly not the bizarre revolving door where any regulatory body for the financial industry shares its staff with the companies it regulates. So really, we've done two horsemen. Next one up should be War I think. Thats how every remain argument has gone, when all else has failed to convince talk about war.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So you limp into the election and lose it. You can't call an election without first undermining your own administration and admitting crisis. What govt would do that?



A no confidence vote would be undermining, but the two thirds vote for early elections doesn't really seem like a step that would be any more undermining than calling for early elections without that vote.


----------



## Sirena (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm abstaining but I found this amusing (apologies if it's already on one of the 111 pages)


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> yes thats the fourth horseman, the threat of penury and the bonfire of workers rights. Well, as before the tories are bulling through an anti union bill. Has the EU spoken up for the rights of workers here? The financial crash that is predicted to be on the way by worried heads in articles I've read won't be because of leaving the EU. It'll be because none of the things that caused the last crash were rectified. Certainly not the bizarre revolving door where any regulatory body for the financial industry shares its staff with the companies it regulates. So really, we've done two horsemen. Next one up should be War I think. Thats how every remain argument has gone, when all else has failed to convince talk about war.



That's why I don't want to move away from the question I asked above.  What does 'disruption to capital' actually mean, how does it provide an advantage, and who for?


----------



## Cid (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> A no confidence vote would be undermining, but the two thirds vote for early elections doesn't really seem like a step that would be any more undermining than calling for early elections without that vote.



They're both unlikely. If they did happen we'd have a Tory right playing the leave 'victory' for all its worth against a left (well, Corbyn) which hasn't exactly done well out of the media recently.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> I don't really want to move away from the precise question i asked above, but one way to "_develop working class struggle_" is to make life harder and conditions ever less favourable for the workers.  Not sure I want to sign up for that project.


A leave vote is likely to make things harder, not for certain but more than likely. A lot of jobs are involved in export, of which 40% goes to EU countries, and inward investment could dry up or go into reverse with jobs following, depending on the settlement with the EU that might eventually be reached. Neither Leave nor Remain can be certain what would happen on a Leave vote because it is uncharted territory.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 14, 2016)

...a Brexit result or even some tiny / disputed Remain result is going to be a truly sesimic political & constitutional shock to the system - I think the political fall-out could be quite interesting to say the least..

..is it unrealistic to imagine that the poison festering from the campaign ( exemplified but in no way confined to the Cameron : Johnson death-match )  bursting out in open warfare & recimination down this ancient Tory schismatic European fault line & some sort cathartic internecine convulsion ( on a par with the Corn Laws )  ( its certainly alot of fun )

Also bearing in mind  : they had a 102 majority under Thatcher : Major ...& their calculation about the supposedly moribund state of the opposition /  Corbyn leadership

Also interesting to see how UKIP emerge nationally from this process after looking exhuasted and bust after the GE anti-climax


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> That's why I don't want to move away from the question I asked above.  What does 'disruption to capital' actually mean, how does it provide an advantage, and who for?


ask belboid, its is phrase. I see it, after all the arguments as a fuck you- not you personally-to the business and political class who want to keep screwing me and mine. Plus, I don't believe the lies about immiseration, the new hitler arising or any of the other guff. 

if I had to say what I thought the phrase meant is that a spanner in the works is a spanner in the works.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

Sirena said:


> I'm abstaining but I found this amusing (apologies if it's already on one of the 111 pages)



What publication is this!?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> if I had to say what I thought the phrase meant is that a spanner in the works is a spanner in the works.


What kind of spanner, and where in the works? Which bits of capitalism are disrupted, and with what consequences for them and the rest of us? I agree with newbie on this - there's way too much vague hand-waving over this, and I'm afraid your 'spanner in the works' is just as vague as anything else.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> That's why I don't want to move away from the question I asked above.  What does 'disruption to capital' actually mean, how does it provide an advantage, and who for?


I too would like to know the answer to this.


----------



## belboid (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> ask belboid, its is phrase.


mm, I don't think it is, you know. There is something to be said for it, but that'll have to wait till I'm not at work.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Which bits of capitalism are disrupted,


I think the original phrase queried was "disruption to capital" not "disruption to capitalism" which aren't necessarily the same thing.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jun 14, 2016)

Cid said:


> They're both unlikely. If they did happen we'd have a Tory right playing the leave 'victory' for all its worth against a left (well, Corbyn) which hasn't exactly done well out of the media recently.


I think it is worse than that. The Blairites, Labour establishment and media are all geared up to blame Corbyn if there is a Brexit.  It will be their green light to challenge him. Plus Labour, Greens, Lib Dems and Plaid will all be associated with a massive defeat. Cameron will be gone. The Tories will not want an election because they do not want to risk Farage's UKIP calling the shots in a hung parliament. UKIP would be best placed to gain seats in an election with labour and Tories in disarray. UKIP will also benefit from a message of"betrayal" on the subject of immigration whatever the referendum result and subsequent new Tory leader.  If Brexit leads to economic turmoil- as I type the Stock Markets have just plunged based on latest polling tending to Brexit - the media/establishment narrative likely to be "safety/stabilisation" and punish the losers - ie new Tory leader "getting a grip" rather than election uncertainty. However if things get really grim the Boris/Gove govt could call an election with the intended result of getting UKIP inside the tent pissing out. Grim


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What kind of spanner, and where in the works? Which bits of capitalism are disrupted, and with what consequences for them and the rest of us? I agree with newbie on this - there's way too much vague hand-waving over this, and I'm afraid your 'spanner in the works' is just as vague as anything else.


it would cause massive disruption. Not least cos we'd have to have another reff, altho you disagree that that would happen as per our discussion the other day. But even if an exit was honoured it'd be ages fucking around and tory infighting. I'm failing to see the downsides. And nobody trot out the horsemen again, I've read the arguments on horseback and they are scary but like revelations, not true. As to the question of how the w/c take advantage of that spanner, well, I don't have all the answers, but I do know what the EU are, how they operate and what current conditions are for change. IE non existent. Projects dead.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

belboid said:


> mm, I don't think it is, you know. There is something to be said for it, but that'll have to wait till I'm not at work.


apols I must have got you mixed up with whover wrote it


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> I think the original phrase queried was "disruption to capital" not "disruption to capitalism" which aren't necessarily the same thing.


Well, disruption of capital is disruption of process of investment, no? ie disruption of borrowing/lending mechanisms - either loans aren't forthcoming or loans are defaulted on, or both. ie Greece. How do you disrupt that process without causing unemployment to rise, living standards to fall, and worker rights being squeezed?


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

It seems to me that if it inspires similar and increasing calls for referendum/leave movements around Europe, then EU neoliberalism could be derailed...
Nearly half of voters in eight EU countries want own 'Brexit' referendum

And that might also leave deals such as TTIP in a mess too.

Some interesting stuff here too about how Europe countries view EU...
Euroskepticism Beyond Brexit

(of course, going by the threats that sections of capital have been making about leave being 'the end of civilisation', you'd think that they were genuinely concerned, but difficult to not be cynical of such motives)


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

Hmm.

I used the phrase "disruption to capital".

In that Brexit would disrupt capital. It would interrupt the neo-liberal plan as implemented by the EU. It would exacerbate (already existing) divisions within the political manifestations of capital (i.e. the Tories but Labour too and various parties in other EU countries). It would exacerbate already existing division within the business community (transnational capital vs. small business etc.). I'm sure there would be an impact on the markets and the financial sector too.

But.

...but

It's just disruption, it's just interruption.

It's nothing lasting unless we take advantage of it.

Which i don't see happening.


----------



## inva (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What publication is this!?


looks like it says Socialist Party of Great Britain at the top of the picture, so probably whatever their paper is called


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Next one up should be War I think. Thats how every remain argument has gone, when all else has failed to convince talk about war.


Well Remain says Leave = Tories and Tories = Trident and everyone knows Trident = Peace.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> ...but
> 
> It's just disruption, it's just interruption.
> 
> ...



So what do we do then? This takes me back to something I think I said many pages ago... that is staying in the EU and little bits of reformism then really the best we can ever achieve? ('we' as in left, pro-socialist, pro-worker, anti-capital). Really depressing thought.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So what do we do then? This takes me back to something I think I said many pages ago... that is staying in the EU and little bits of reformism then really the best we can ever achieve? ('we' as in left, pro-socialist, pro-worker, anti-capital). Really depressing thought.



Fuck knows 

It's all very depressing.

It really underlines how absent any kind of "Left-ish" ideas, never mind concrete forces, are at the moment (certainly in England). We're not even in this game.

Neither Brexit nor Remain are any sort of victory. They're both defeats. No sense painting them any other way.

I guess we can argue about which is the more damaging defeat for us.

*sighs*

Forgive me. It just seems politically bleaker than I can ever recall out there right now.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I used the phrase "disruption to capital".
> 
> ...


well why not just vote leave out of spite to the wankers who did the greeks over and continue to do so? Them and their trading club that has somehow become mightier than the will of an electorate. No ones storming the winter palace here are they. Sneering libs have been insinuating heavily that the lexit case is revo fantasy stuff but then they are smelling their own farts and loving them again


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

Maybe its like being a Scotland supporter during the Euros. Cheering on whichever team might go through to beat the English the most should England qualify from the group stages.

...or something.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> well why not just vote leave out of spite to the wankers who did the greeks over and continue to do so? Them and their trading club that has somehow become mightier than the will of an electorate. No ones storming the winter palace here are they. Sneering libs have been insinuating heavily that the lexit case is revo fantasy stuff but then they are smelling their own farts and loving them again



Voting out of spite is certainly one option.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> *Sneering libs* have been insinuating heavily that the lexit case is revo fantasy stuff but then they are smelling their own farts and loving them again


This is itself a sneer. This thread is oozing with the sneer 'liberal' against anyone who might, for instance, have concerns over losing their job.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is itself a sneer. This thread is oozing with the sneer 'liberal' against anyone who might, for instance, have concerns over losing their job.



Where? I've not seen anyone do that at all. It's critised liberals for offering shit analyses ('but but Gove/Boris/Farage'), and for trying to just reduce anyone wanting leave to being some of racist, and for making out that the EU is some sort of 'progressive' power when it's fucking over workers and member states, and for hyping up dramatic positions ('they'll send 'em home') when the reality isn't that clear. I've not seen anyone actually revel in people losing jobs. Although, if you think I'm going to be upset because JP Morgan threaten to pull out of the UK, well, hmm.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> Fuck knows
> 
> It's all very depressing.
> 
> ...



QFT


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Where? I've not seen anyone do that at all. It's critised liberals for offering shit analyses ('but but Gove/Boris/Farage'), and for trying to just reduce anyone wanting leave to being some of racist, and for making out that the EU is some sort of 'progressive' power when it's fucking over workers and member states, and for hyping up dramatic positions ('they'll send 'em home') when the reality isn't that clear. I've not seen anyone actually revel in people losing jobs. Although, if you think I'm going to be upset because JP Morgan threaten to pull out of the UK, well, hmm.


No, the reality isn't that clear, but the time is coming when Project Wishful Thinking has to start delivering some clarity.  We know Project Fear has been overhyped, repeating that over and again doesn't move anything forward.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> No, the reality isn't that clear, but the time is coming when Project Wishful Thinking has to start delivering some clarity.  We know Project Fear has been overhyped, repeating that over and again doesn't move anything forward.



I know. I was responding though to LBJs fucking shit.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> I know. I was responding though to LBJs fucking shit.


it's not though, is it?	I said above that "one way to "_develop working class struggle_" is to make life harder and conditions ever less favourable for the workers." and got a lecture about the four horsemen. 

because, as far as I can see, a great deal more of the energy being put into Project Wishful Thinking is raging against Project Fear rather than actually analysing what these concepts really mean.  In practice, for people and their lives.

FWIW during the 2008/9 recession I remember trying to find ideas for how to take advantage of that period of 'disruption of capital'.  No-one had any and all that happened was that I lost my livelihood and Cameron became PM.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

problem is I made my decision before any of the campaigns started even lacing their boots and putting on shit ties. My possion has been long decided and not reactionary.


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm not sure that 2008/9 was a period of disruption for capital. Not in the sense that i mean it anyway.

2008/9 allowed strategic moves by capital within states like the UK to shrink chosen aspects of the economy and of the state. Was capital divided, disrupted, vulnerable during this period? I don't think so. The logic of capitalism was more naked than it had been before perhaps, and there was certainly a fairly abrupt shift in "stuff" such as borrowing, house prices and high street consumption. But I don't think its a comparable "disruption".

...but again I'm not 100% sure on _any_ of this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> I'm not sure that 2008/9 was a period of disruption for capital. Not in the sense that i mean it anyway.
> 
> 2008/9 allowed strategic moves by capital within states like the UK to shrink chosen aspects of the economy and of the state. Was capital divided, disrupted, vulnerable during this period? I don't think so. The logic of capitalism was more naked than it had been before perhaps, and there was certainly a fairly abrupt shift in "stuff" such as borrowing, house prices and high street consumption. But I don't think its a comparable "disruption".
> 
> ...but again I'm not 100% sure on _any_ of this.


capital was very happy as governments fell over themselves to thrust money into the banksters' capacious coffers.


----------



## gosub (Jun 14, 2016)




----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

Sorry newbie et al, it's no good, I think I'm just so utterly frustrated by the lack of a strong left response and narrative on pro-worker, pro-socialist grounds to any of this (whether that ultimately meant remain or not) when I think that the referendum especially when the Tories are at utter odds with each other with a small majority and the (even tiniest) potential for a leave derailing the present path of EU neoliberalism, that I just haven't got the patience or argument in me for it - especially the liberal privileged guff that now pervades the forum - criticising other posters on the left rather than uniting to attack capital/neoliberalism. I'm gonna take a break from here.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 14, 2016)

Each choice seems to be a sop to one side of the capitalist class, but is there any honour in abstention?

I'm completely undecided and anticap.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> capital was very happy as governments fell over themselves to thrust money into the banksters' capacious coffers.


and organised labour bent over backwards to reduce hours and take pay cuts in order to have some hope of a job in the future. The precariat got hammered. Benefit cuts were immediately necessary.  

No two situations are ever exactly comparable, but where are the precedents for a "_disruption to capital_" that helped "_develop working class struggle_" without hurting common people much, much more than it hurt the banking and political classes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> and organised labour bent over backwards to reduce hours and take pay cuts in order to have some hope of a job in the future. The precariat got hammered. Benefit cuts were immediately necessary.
> 
> No two situations are ever exactly comparable, but where are the precedents for a "_disruption to capital_" that helped "_develop working class struggle_" without hurting common people much, much more than it hurt the banking and political classes?


i don't recall unionised people in my sectors bending over backwards to reduce hours and take pay cuts. perhaps you could point to some examples.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> criticising those of us on the left rather than uniting to attack capital/neoliberalism.



This looks like a criticism of the left:



stethoscope said:


> I'm just so utterly frustrated by the lack of a strong left response and narrative on pro-worker, pro-socialist grounds to any of this


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 14, 2016)

teuchter said:


> This looks like a criticism of the left:



You've got zero useful to say, have you. Always this shit.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 14, 2016)

gosub said:


>



does she vote tory?


----------



## dendrite (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I used the phrase "disruption to capital".
> 
> ...



Bet everybody's heard this one before, but there's that quote from Lenin in Switzerland - "we older comrades may not live to see the revolution" - very shortly before the October revolution. Not claiming there's much ground for predicting great developments from an interruption to neoliberalism. But just the fact of good consequences being unforeseeable isn't necessarily a sign that Brexit won't have them either.

To the extent an interruption/disruption involves victims of neoliberalism exercising power, for once, might that empowerment itself prepare the ground for better developments?


----------



## teuchter (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> You've got zero useful ever to say have you. You and some of your fellow travellers are why I now ignore the Brixton forum.


I'm open to "left" arguments for leaving the EU. But they all seem too hand-wavy or wishful-thinking for me to be persuaded by.

Your statement suggests you also think they are inadequate. "Lack of a strong left response".

Was looking forward to all your useful-things-to-say about this.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't recall unionised people in my sectors bending over backwards to reduce hours and take pay cuts. perhaps you could point to some examples.


don't you work in the public sector?

Here you go
Workers at major manufacturing company agree to cut hours and pay to save jobs | Eurofound

and by sheer chance, because I wasn't searching for a company owned by a leading Outer, here they are doing it again last Novemebr

JCB staff agree to work fewer hours to save jobs


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> don't you work in the public sector?
> 
> Here you go
> Workers at major manufacturing company agree to cut hours and pay to save jobs | Eurofound
> ...


neither of those public sector


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> neither of those public sector


quite so.  The public sector isn't immune from 'disruption of capital', far from it, but it's not at the sharp end either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> don't you work in the public sector?
> 
> Here you go


and there was me thinking you meant the examples would be from the public sector


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> and there was me thinking you meant the examples would be from the public sector


the public sector reference was to your own comment that you personally didn't see it happening in your sectors


----------



## inva (Jun 14, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Sorry newbie et al, it's no good, I think I'm just so utterly frustrated by the lack of a strong left response and narrative on pro-worker, pro-socialist grounds to any of this (whether that ultimately meant remain or not) when I think that the referendum especially when the Tories are at utter odds with each other with a small majority and the (even tiniest) potential for a leave derailing the present path of EU neoliberalism, that I just haven't got the patience or argument in me for it - especially the liberal privileged guff that now pervades the forum - criticising other posters on the left rather than uniting to attack capital/neoliberalism. I'm gonna take a break from here.


just wanted to say as someone who's mostly just been reading the threads on this topic instead of participating, your posts have been really good for arguing a pro working class pov.


----------



## Sirena (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What publication is this!?


Dunno.  It just popped up on FB.


----------



## pocketscience (Jun 14, 2016)

weltweit said:


> A leave vote is likely to make things harder, not for certain but more than likely. A lot of jobs are involved in export, of which 40% goes to EU countries, and inward investment could dry up or go into reverse with jobs following, depending on the settlement with the EU that might eventually be reached. Neither Leave nor Remain can be certain what would happen on a Leave vote because it is uncharted territory.


You start out with two baseless statements that veer towards the project fear narrative, then say neither side can be certain what happens. 
You keep on doing this.
As for the inward investment - take Airbus as an example: A flagship company of the EU project for development and integration.  In the last 7-8 years they've divested half the UK sites' activities to offshoring (see GKN). Filton & Broughton are now competing against S.Korea wing manufacturers. Final Assembly Lines recently built in  Alabama and 2 in Tianjin. Their helicopter maanufacturing is going to China.
New investment in the Eu in that period: Zilch! A net organic reduction in employees through retirement and as good a no new permi hires.
Similar stories with BMW, VW, AUDI, Daimler...

These companies have been investing more heavily in countries outside the Eu in the last 8 years than in, and not just the cheapo places like China. Why do you think that is? Why aren't they investing more heavily in Portugal, Greece, Spain, Italy or Ireland - helping out their needy European mates?
...and what makes you think that investment in a post EU UK is not going to happen?


----------



## chilango (Jun 14, 2016)

inva said:


> just wanted to say as someone who's mostly just been reading the threads on this topic instead of participating, your posts have been really good for arguing a pro working class pov.



Agreed, stethoscope keep posting on this. It's depressing, but quite reflective of IRL, how how disempowered yet aggressive this debate is for "us".


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> a lecture about the four horsemen.


I'd like to think I would do a lecture on the 4 with greater depth than that. You got allegory, example that sort of thing. A few lines of. Don't be snide.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)




----------



## weltweit (Jun 14, 2016)

pocketscience said:


> You start out with two baseless statements that veer towards the project fear narrative, then say neither side can be certain what happens.
> You keep on doing this.


Perhaps because I believe it is true.
Can you say anything about the future post an exit vote and it not be a tenuous prediction?



pocketscience said:


> As for the inward investment - take Airbus as an example: A flagship company of the EU project for development and integration.  In the last 7-8 years they've divested half the UK sites' activities to offshoring (see GKN). Filton & Broughton are now competing against S.Korea wing manufacturers. Final Assembly Lines recently built in  Alabama and 2 in Tianjin. Their helicopter maanufacturing is going to China.
> New investment in the Eu in that period: Zilch! A net organic reduction in employees through retirement and as good a no new permi hires.
> Similar stories with BMW, VW, AUDI, Daimler...


I don't know much about Airbus but I expect if Airbus is now also assembling in the US and China it might have something to do with the number of customers they have there?



pocketscience said:


> These companies have been investing more heavily in countries outside the Eu in the last 8 years than in, and not just the cheapo places like China. Why do you think that is? Why aren't they investing more heavily in Portugal, Greece, Spain, Italy or Ireland - helping out their needy European mates?
> ...and what makes you think that investment in a post EU UK is not going to happen?


I didn't say it wasn't going to happen, I said it might decline or reverse (overall I am talking), and I think that will be the case if the UK is no longer the friendly English speaking gateway to the EU. Of course that will depend, if exit win, on future negotiations.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 14, 2016)

Airbus is just a classic example of global capital moving things where it can get them done cheapest.


----------



## newbie (Jun 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd like to think I would do a lecture on the 4 with greater depth than that. You got allegory, example that sort of thing. A few lines of. Don't be snide.


 sorry, misjudged, not intentional.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Jun 14, 2016)

I don't think this will happen but interesting anyway
There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it


> A really crucial detail about the upcoming EU referendum has gone virtually unmentioned and it is probably _the_most crucial detail: Parliament doesn't actually have to bring Britain out of the EU if the public votes for it.
> 
> That is because the result of June 23 referendum on Britain's EU membership is not legally binding. Instead, it is merely advisory, and, in theory, could be totally ignored by UK government.


----------



## gosub (Jun 14, 2016)

weltweit said:


> Perhaps because I believe it is true.
> Can you say anything about the future post an exit vote and it not be a tenuous prediction?
> 
> 
> ...



And yet you conceeded so many pages back it was Single market access rather than EU membership, but thats gone now and you have the undecidedes that might pop inat this point rather than be bothered to read.

Its an import duty work around other than the XS29A, but I'd say it many still on the back of pre 08 sales with some slots changing hands a few times.  Not been good years for new orders in aircraft sales and the collapse of the resale market means there are some real bargins second hand.

Michael Crichton's Airframe is a good read on why you don't put aircraft manufacture in China.   Boeing have plant in Germany these days too.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 14, 2016)

gosub said:


> And yet you conceeded so many pages back it was Single market access rather than EU membership, but thats gone now and you have the undecidedes that might pop inat this point rather than be bothered to read.



Sorry, yes single market.
The UK has been the friendly English speaking (tariff free) gateway to the European Single Market.
If that comes to an end I think it is likely to affect inward investment.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 14, 2016)

Great pity that fair comment comes from ukip rather than the left on Labour and Remain 
'Jeremy Corbyn Is A Champagne Socialist Who Has Betrayed His Principles' Says Arron Banks In Extraordinary Rant


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

Indeliblelink said:


> I don't think this will happen but interesting anyway
> There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it



In the event of a vote for leave I think that the chances of there being a second vote are very high.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

newbie said:


> the public sector reference was to your own comment that you personally didn't see it happening in your sectors


And nor do you in mine apparently


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> In the event of a vote for leave I think that the chances of there being a second vote are very high.


What, a 'best of three' one?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 14, 2016)

Indeliblelink said:


> I don't think this will happen but interesting anyway
> There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it


And given the majority of MPs are pro-remain, it's hard to see how votes would be lost in Parliament.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> In the event of a vote for leave I think that the chances of there being a second vote are very high.


Yeah they'll want us to do as we're told.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> And given the majority of MPs are pro-remain, it's hard to see how votes would be lost in Parliament.


You have more faith in the strength of mps' spines than i


----------



## 8den (Jun 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> What, a 'best of three' one?



Ever heard of the Nice Treaty?


----------



## Libertad (Jun 14, 2016)

8den said:


> Ever heard of the Nice Treaty?



In the end it's all down to the biscuits.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2016)

8den said:


> Ever heard of the Nice Treaty?


National institute of clinical excellence? Didn't know it was associated with a treaty


----------



## teqniq (Jun 14, 2016)

The crux of the biscuit is in the apostrophe.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 14, 2016)

teqniq said:


> The crux of the biscuit is in the apostrophe.



Quite, but it's not a possessive.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 14, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> You have more faith in the strength of mps' spines than i


Fair point: I guess a few MPs in marginals might think about switching their allegiance, esp if there was a strong brexit vote in their area.

(I assume results will be available on a ward by ward, or constituency by constituency basis?)


----------



## Sue (Jun 14, 2016)

Libertad said:


> In the end it's all down to the biscuits.


And those ones are rubbish. What about a nice Bourbon or a Garibaldi?


----------



## belboid (Jun 14, 2016)

The39thStep said:


> Great pity that fair comment comes from ukip rather than the left on Labour and Remain
> 'Jeremy Corbyn Is A Champagne Socialist Who Has Betrayed His Principles' Says Arron Banks In Extraordinary Rant


mm, various lefties have made the same point.  Just in a slightly less combative way.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 14, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is itself a sneer. This thread is oozing with the sneer 'liberal' against anyone who might, for instance, have concerns over losing their job.


Where are these supposed sneers against people concerned with their jobs?

As for the mad implication that people like myself, steph, BA, belboid etc are rubbing our hands in glee with the expectation that people will be losing their jobs, quite frankly fuck you.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 14, 2016)

belboid said:


> mm, various lefties have made the same point.  Just in a slightly less combative way.


Pity we don't hear more of them  .


----------



## two sheds (Jun 14, 2016)

They're playing Nice treaty Nasty treaty on us.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 14, 2016)

Hilarious to see how many liberals are using value of the FTSE as evidence that Brexit is wrong. If that is the case then why not give up all pretences of democracy entirely and just do exactly what 'the market' wants at all times?


----------



## Sprocket. (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Hilarious to see how many liberals are using value of the FTSE as evidence that Brexit is wrong. If that is the case then why not give up all pretences of democracy entirely and just do exactly what 'the market' wants at all times?



I thought that bridge had already been crossed and burned!


----------



## gosub (Jun 14, 2016)

chilango said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I used the phrase "disruption to capital".
> 
> ...


Brexit panic and deflation drive German Bund yields below zero   all the way up to 10 year so far .... Looks like Lord Owen was right - it would shake up the complacency.  Bonds didn't blink at all on the Scots referendum and that was an existential crisis in a global reserve currency.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Hilarious to see how many liberals are using value of the FTSE as evidence that Brexit is wrong. If that is the case then why not *give up all pretences of democracy entirely and just do exactly what 'the market' wants at all times?*


They have.


----------



## gosub (Jun 14, 2016)

FTSE is the slot machines,  bonds are the mortgage on the HOUSE 

Eta
What I'm thinking on the bond market.  There is a sweet spot where the market will lend you money and expect it back with a able usury over time because they have faith,  the higher the usury the less faith... Negative usury and market is telling you we have faith in you- your neighbours not so much It's the time period of being the nice house in a street getting shittier that gets you


----------



## Libertad (Jun 14, 2016)

two sheds said:


> They're playing Nice treaty Nasty treaty on us.



Good hobnob, bad hobnob.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 14, 2016)

Where the punters are putting their money...FWIW...


----------



## gosub (Jun 14, 2016)

If you can't move,  you either try and build a moat from your increasing desperate neighbours  OR give your neighbours houses a lick of paint (to confuse burglars no such thing as altruism).   Choice is a matter of nation sovereignty  (not ours, we already have a moat)

Longer Germany kicks the can down the road the worse it will get.  And we, the UK probably only get one shot at addressing this shit


----------



## gosub (Jun 14, 2016)

There will be immigration pressure (being in the EEA) our feet to the fire,  while this shit is sorted,  but an act of good faith. 

OR

just about every other bollocks


----------



## realitybites (Jun 14, 2016)

gosub said:


> Brexit panic and deflation drive German Bund yields below zero all the way up to 10 year so far .... Looks like Lord Owen was right - it would shake up the complacency. Bonds didn't blink at all on the Scots referendum



Very interesting, if indeed this is true? I don't remember any other time in my own history, were the predictions of a vote now in the hands of the British people, has the potential to shake waves across the economy and have by all accounts EU investors scuttling to their corners. If this is really the case, I say fuck 'em let's use this opportunity to really make a change. As whatever the outcome one thing is certain, never again in my generation will our government put such an important decision into the hands of its people..


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2016)

realitybites said:


> Very interesting, if indeed this is true? I don't remember any other time in my own history, were the predictions of a vote now in the hands of the British people, has the potential to shake waves across the economy and have by all accounts EU investors scuttling to their corners. If this is really the case, I say fuck 'em let's use this opportunity to really make a change. As whatever the outcome one thing is certain, never again in my generation will our government put such an important decision into the hands of its people..


Valid check   WSJ .  do you? 	market talk below article is interesting "Frankfurt traders already consider it only a matter of time when 15-year and 20-year bonds will follow suit"


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

Monbiot writes well. I'm a little disappointed by this article, but it certainly highlights important points.



> Without sufficient public scrutiny, all political systems degenerate into the service of wealth. All end up controlled by the few with the cash, not the many with the votes. The primary democratic task is to break the nexus of money and power. So the question we face next week is this: “In which political unit can money best be resisted?” We are not embarrassed by choice. This is a contest of plutocracies
> .
> .
> .
> ...



I think there's a great deal of sense in this.  I tried floating a similar point weeks ago but got shot down by BA, and given that I've never scored in a debate with him in my life and never will, let it slide.  I expected it to resurface in the wider debate but this is the first I've noticed.

Is all capitalism exactly the same, apart from a bit of window dressing? Or are the (to my mind fairly apparent) differences between the European and American models sufficient to matter?   The Atlanticist tendency in British politics has long promoted our role as offshore aircraft carrier and financial entry point.

Mainstream Project Fear doesn't mention any of this because in reality they welcome it. Anyone else think it matters?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 15, 2016)

Fuckin' state of this


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> Monbiot writes well. I'm a little disappointed by this article, but it certainly highlights important points.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think there's a deal of truth in Monbiot's analysis; I'm sure that many of the tory, Brexiteer Atlanticists really believe this stuff...but it's essentially bollux. Neolib capital has no national allegiance, loyalty or regional basis.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

Sturgeon's right, of course...


> *Nicola Sturgeon* has warned that a Brexit vote next week will lead to “a rightwing Tory takeover” of the UK, allowing a “power grab” by Conservatives who believe David Cameron and George Osborne are moderates....the first minister has said a Brexit vote would leave Scotland “vulnerable to the most rightwing Tory government in modern history.”
> 
> “*If we leave Europe, they will take it as a green light to scrap workers’ rights and employment protection, slash public spending as part of their ideologically driven austerity obsession* – and would target Scotland for extra cuts,” she added.


...but exactly the same could be said of remaining within the EU.


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

Indeed, Tom Watson going on about abolishing freedom of movement (well, of labour, not of capital, of course), the curtailing of existing rights and the opening up of more and more services to 'free' trade, not to mention ignoring the far right governments in Poland and Hungary and their restrictions on human rights....but, hey, we have to vote Remain to stop fascism!


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Fuckin' state of this


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> Is all capitalism exactly the same, apart from a bit of window dressing? Or are the (to my mind fairly apparent) differences between the European and American models sufficient to matter?


Clearly there are differences. The US has virtually no worker right guarantees at state level. Minimum guaranteed holiday and sick pay: zero. Its 'hire-and-fire' model is even seen by its advocates as a virtue - 'freeing the market', or somesuch bollocks. There is also the rather terrifying tendency towards recognising the 'civil rights' of businesses. That's not window-dressing.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)




----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Clearly there are differences. The US has virtually no worker right guarantees at state level. Minimum guaranteed holiday and sick pay: zero. Its 'hire-and-fire' model is even seen by its advocates as a virtue - 'freeing the market', or somesuch bollocks. There is also the rather terrifying tendency towards recognising the 'civil rights' of businesses. That's not window-dressing.


Just further forward on the same trajectory?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


>



Oh when will I awake from this fever dream.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Just further forward on the same trajectory?


Not really. Various worker guarantees have come in through the EU in the last 20 years. And they continue to come. It's not a simple picture of the EU pushing towards one thing. There are pushes in the other direction as well.


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I think there's a deal of truth in Monbiot's analysis; I'm sure that many of the tory, Brexiteer Atlanticists really believe this stuff...but it's essentially bollux. Neolib capital has no national allegiance, loyalty or regional basis.



yeah, course, silly me. 

That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies.  See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 15, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not really. Various worker guarantees have come in through the EU in the last 20 years. And they continue to come. It's not a simple picture of the EU pushing towards one thing. There are pushes in the other direction as well.


Found those sneers against people concerned about losing their jobs yet?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> yeah, course, silly me.
> 
> That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies.  See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.




What does this even mean?


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> yeah, course, silly me.
> 
> That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies.  See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.


 Well, these are largely down to Europes history of workers struggles, a comparatively early developing industrial working class that flexed its muscles and imposed various kinds of settlement upon capital. These have, unsurprisingly, contradictory results - the place of TU's on German boards means some of the worst practises of international capital may be avoided, but only at a price of a wider social 'peace' - which is obviously far from perfect, and also breaking down now (the NU refused to have such a deal here in the mines, by the by). There is no inherent difference between the two models - and Germany is different even within Europe, exploiting its dominant economic position to be the one country in the EU that really benefits from neolib rules with its trade surplus - but the history of those struggles mean capital has a slightly different starting point.


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Well, these are largely down to Europes history of workers struggles, a comparatively early developing industrial working class that flexed its muscles and imposed various kinds of settlement upon capital. These have, unsurprisingly, contradictory results - the place of TU's on German boards means some of the worst practises of international capital may be avoided, but only at a price of a wider social 'peace' - which is obviously far from perfect, and also breaking down now (the NU refused to have such a deal here in the mines, by the by). There is no inherent difference between the two models - and Germany is different even within Europe, exploiting its dominant economic position to be the one country in the EU that really benefits from neolib rules with its trade surplus - but the history of those struggles mean capital has a slightly different starting point.


yes history.  yes conditions.  indeed yes trajectory.

But now is now and if Monbiot is right, and I think he's made good points, one of the aspects of the choice in front of us is which plutocracy we wish to be most closely aligned with.  Unless there's an immediate and huge capital shift, for the next while we'll have British capitalists trying to push politicans to create conditions that suit them.  British capitalists that take their cues from role models abroad. Did anyone but me read the articles about Bamford and JCB workers up there ^^? or Ashley, or BHS...  Are their cues coming from the German model or the American one?

In theory I agree with you, capital is indivisible, all it cares about is profit.  But this isn't about theory, it's about real people and their lives.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> yes history.  yes conditions.  indeed yes trajectory.
> 
> But now is now and if Monbiot is right, and I think he's made good points, one of the aspects of the choice in front of us is which plutocracy we wish to be most closely aligned with.  Unless there's an immediate and huge capital shift, for the next while we'll have British capitalists trying to push politicans to create conditions that suit them.  British capitalists that take their cues from role models abroad. Did anyone but me read the articles about Bamford and JCB workers up there ^^? or Ashley, or BHS...  Are their cues coming from the German model or the American one?
> 
> In theory I agree with you, capital is indivisible, all it cares about is profit.  But this isn't about theory, it's about real people and their lives.



Remind me, which way does the US government want us to vote? The US gov wants us to stay in, desperately, and they always have done. Not for nothing did de Gaulle call Britain the US' trojan horse in Europe.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

Funny to see Darling lining up alongside Osborne as Osborne delivers his fiscal waterboarding speech because the Tories can't get McDonnell to do it, the absolute desperation of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Funny to see Darling lining up alongside Osborne as Osborne delivers his fiscal waterboarding speech because the Tories can't get McDonnell to do it, the absolute desperation of it.


yesterday's man talking beside the day before yesterday's man.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm amazed that they think this stunt is actually going to win voters over, I know I'm not in the UK but I just see it as showing how desperate they are, and how all politicians eat from the same trough.


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Remind me, which way does the US government want us to vote? The US gov wants us to stay in, desperately, and they always have done. Not for nothing did de Gaulle call Britain the US' trojan horse in Europe.


yep, that's a very good point.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> yeah, course, silly me.
> 
> That accounts for most of Europe having some sort of socialised healthcare while US capital prevents any hint of that; it accounts for why eg German boards have worker representation, 50% in larger companies.  See here for the detail, and you can poke around there to see how other European countries work if you're interested. I'm sure American companies are all too willing to implement something similar, just like British companies have. oh.


Those differences that do exist between the US & EU 'social contracts' are, though, legacy differences that relate to the differential level of concession that capital felt necessary in the (pre-neoliberal) era of genuine system competition. They do not reflect the inevitable dilution of working people's conditions that financialised capital now demands, and feels able to demand free from fear.


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Those differences that do exist between the US & EU 'social contracts' are, though, legacy differences that relate to the differential level of concession that capital felt necessary in the (pre-neoliberal) era of genuine system competition. They do not reflect the *inevitable* dilution of working people's conditions that financialised capital now demands, and feels able to demand free from fear.


 Nothing is inevitable. 

Except the struggle


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Nothing is inevitable.
> 
> Except the struggle


Yes, quite right....should have said "They do not reflect the inevitable *continuing pressure for* dilution of working people's conditions.."


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Those differences that do exist between the US & EU 'social contracts' are, though, legacy differences that relate to the differential level of concession that capital felt necessary in the (pre-neoliberal) era of genuine system competition. They do not reflect the inevitable dilution of working people's conditions that financialised capital now demands, and feels able to demand free from fear.


they reflect the situation as it is now, as it affects real people and their lives.  

As a small country with a big economy, occupying the geographic and cultural position we do, we are choosing which trajectory we wish to align towards.  It may be of interest to consider how the competing models got to where they are today, but to my mind where they're going is much more important. 

You're right, there is "_continuing pressure for dilution of working people's conditions_" and in a globalised world capitalists will attempt to even out the differences in the name of competitiveness.  Different current conditions and the willpower of the working populations will help determine how that plays out. If it takes only a week before the conditions of German and American workers are fully aligned there's no point in having this conversation. If it takes 50 years there's an awful lot of point.  I don't know how long it will take, but in just over a week we'll know which trajectory we're going to follow.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Funny to see Darling lining up alongside Osborne as Osborne delivers his fiscal waterboarding speech because the Tories can't get McDonnell to do it, the absolute desperation of it.


they had that fucking robot in to do the scots indyreff fear bits. Bailed out by brown. Its cos he looks like a bank manager. little round eichmann specs


----------



## teqniq (Jun 15, 2016)

You could not make this shit up 

Pro-Brexit flotilla boat involved in £63 million fishing fraud



> A flagship of the pro-Brexit flotilla currently sailing up the Thames was involved in the UK’s largest ever frauds involving illegal catches of fish, it has emerged.
> 
> The Christina S, a 72-metre-long pelagic trawler, is one of two largest vessels taking part in the river protest organised by Scottish skippers heading to Westminster to call for the UK’s withdrawal from the EU....



and...

Farage and Geldof clash in rival flotillas in bizarre 'battle for the Thames'



> Boats carrying the Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the prominent Remain supporter Sir Bob Geldof have clashed in a bizarre "battle for the Thames" ahead of the EU referendum...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

I think we still have time for something more surreal to happen wrt EUreff but its going to have to be good to top Geldof and his Doof Boat facing down a brexit flotilla. For fucks sake.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 15, 2016)

Indeed. Made my day. 

tweet originally from article


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 15, 2016)

Sue said:


> And those ones are rubbish. What about a nice Bourbon or a Garibaldi?



You can stick your Franco-royalist Bourbons up your arse!!! 

Squashed fly biscuits all the way!!!


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> they reflect the situation as it is now, as it affects real people and their lives.
> 
> As a small country with a big economy, occupying the geographic and cultural position we do, we are choosing which trajectory we wish to align towards.  It may be of interest to consider how the competing models got to where they are today, but to my mind where they're going is much more important.
> 
> You're right, there is "_continuing pressure for dilution of working people's conditions_" and in a globalised world capitalists will attempt to even out the differences in the name of competitiveness.  Different current conditions and the willpower of the working populations will help determine how that plays out. If it takes only a week before the conditions of German and American workers are fully aligned there's no point in having this conversation. If it takes 50 years there's an awful lot of point.  I don't know how long it will take, but in just over a week we'll know which trajectory we're going to follow.


A fair point, but not much of a rallying cry for the class?
_"Hold your nose, stick with the super-state because they might kill us more slowly"?_


----------



## andysays (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


>


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> A fair point, but not much of a rallying cry for the class?
> _"Hold your nose, stick with the super-state because they might kill us more slowly"?_


is "_Jump aboard HMS Project Wishful Thinking and speed up your demise_" any better?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> is "_Jump aboard Project Wishful Thinking and speed up your demise_" any better?


No.


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

sorry I edited  the one you just quoted to add to the nautical theme but you were too quick


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> sorry I edited  the one you just quoted to add to the nautical theme but you were too quick


Still no.


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> is "_Jump aboard HMS Project Wishful Thinking and speed up your demise_" any better?


 haven't you noticed, broggers is sitting on a life raft between the two vessels trying not to fall into the sea in their wake


----------



## newbie (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> haven't you noticed, broggers is sitting on a life raft between the two vessels trying not to fall into the sea in their wake


just now so am I, but I'll be putting my ballot in the post tomorrow and there will be an X in one or other box.

Anyway the point stands, there are different models of capitalism, with currently different social conditions, we have to choose in whose wake we want to bob along.


----------



## Smangus (Jun 15, 2016)

I feel like I've woken up in the middle of a real life "Passport to Pimlico" film.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

some of are just in the water to have a sly piss


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> haven't you noticed, broggers is sitting on a life raft between the two vessels trying not to fall into the sea in their wake



There aren't two vessels, though. It's a mirage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

newbie said:


> sorry I edited  the one you just quoted to add to the nautical theme but you were too quick


nauti nauti very nauti


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> There aren't two vessels, though. It's a mirage.


no, this is a mirage


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> nauti nauti very nauti


_All the nice girls like a leaver_


----------



## 2hats (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> no, this is a mirage


Perhaps it is being confused with a farage, both being cruel illusions that lure the gullible to their death in the wilderness?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

2hats said:


> Perhaps it is being confused with a farage, both being cruel illusions that lure the gullible to their death in the wilderness?


Impressive (remainarian) cross-topic synergy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

2hats said:


> Perhaps it is being confused with a farage, both being cruel illusions that lure the gullible to their death in the wilderness?


the farage being particularly foul, offering you a pint but never actually buying it


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 15, 2016)

The fuckin arrogance of Osborne promising to punish us in the event of a brexit vote with £30bn of tax rises and spending cuts. I reckon that'll help a lot of people make up their minds, and not all in the way Sniffer wants them to vote.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can stick your Franco-royalist Bourbons up your arse!!!
> 
> Squashed fly biscuits all the way!!!



Eat the Rich ( Tea )


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The fuckin arrogance of Osborne promising to punish us in the event of a brexit vote with £30bn of tax rises and spending cuts. I reckon that'll help a lot of people make up their minds, and not all in the way Sniffer wants them to vote.


blatant threats stage now then ennit. Watch the histrionics rise in volume as the date draws nearer


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> Eat the Rich ( Tea )


hobnobs all round


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The fuckin arrogance of Osborne promising to punish us in the event of a brexit vote with £30bn of tax rises and spending cuts. I reckon that'll help a lot of people make up their minds, and not all in the way Sniffer wants them to vote.


to the guillotine with gideon


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 15, 2016)

Nigel.. Nigel


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 15, 2016)

Can't we just decide this over a big game of Celebrity It's A Knockout?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 15, 2016)

Someone tell Thames Water that their sewers must be overflowing again, as there's a giant turd floating under Tower Bridge.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Can't we just decide this over a big game of Celebrity It's A Knockout?



with real snake pits


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Can't we just decide this over a big game of Celebrity It's A Knockout?



Stuart Hall is unavoidably detained


----------



## killer b (Jun 15, 2016)

I ended up watching most of its a royal knockout on YouTube a few months ago. It was surprisingly entertaining, and very very odd.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

For the historical record...


----------



## pesh (Jun 15, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Nigel.. Nigel



 at Geldof's PA system...


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 15, 2016)

It's all a bit Alan Partridge vs The Farmers... Water way to have a good time...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> It's all a bit Alan Partridge vs The Farmers... Water way to have a good time...


sort of like a crap brit remake of waterworld but with a geldofian sonic assault boat


----------



## 2hats (Jun 15, 2016)




----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 15, 2016)

gosub said:


> Stuart Hall is unavoidably detained



...both of them...

Stuart Hall (cultural theorist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

2hats said:


>


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

2hats said:


>


what you can't see is in his hand he's got a parachute: he's not taking any chances


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 15, 2016)

Has Dyson's submarine appeared yet to torpedo Geldof?  Or did it get taken out by Branson's hovercraft?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Has Dyson's submarine appeared yet to torpedo Geldof?  Or did it get taken out by Branson's hovercraft?



Tim Martin's Ekranoplan has just been spotted near Chiswick Bridge, that should stir things up at bit...


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything | Lisa Mckenzie

It's not an especially good piece, but at least she's on the right side


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

in the latter days of the eureff conflict none could have forseen drone warfare above london and the battle for the thames. It was as if two great twattish forces had arisen and decided to clash. We watched open mouthed as the bunch of dicks waged unceasing war with unceasing pomposity.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Has Dyson's submarine appeared yet to torpedo Geldof?  Or did it get taken out by Branson's hovercraft?


The bigger threat was Tim Martin's battalions on the bridges with their 'depth charges".


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


> The bigger threat was Tim Martin's battalions on the bridges with their 'depth charges".


*guffaw*


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything | Lisa Mckenzie
> 
> It's not an especially good piece, but at least she's on the right side


It's rather an odd piece. She doesn't mention one example of how working class people will benefit from Brexit. Just that working class people have something to say, and now they have a chance to say it. But if it won't improve their working conditions or services or the social wage, isn't it rather a sideshow? And won't it benefit some fairly openly anti-working class people, such as Johnson?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> It's rather an odd piece. She doesn't mention one example of how working class people will benefit from Brexit. Just that working class people have something to say, and now they have a chance to say it. But if it won't improve their working conditions or services or the social wage, isn't it rather a sideshow? And won't it benefit some fairly openly anti-working class people, such as Johnson?


do you think lisa wrote the headline?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

Brainaddict: simple yes/no question: do you think she wrote the headline?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> It's rather an odd piece. She doesn't mention one example of how working class people will benefit from Brexit. Just that working class people have something to say, and now they have a chance to say it. But if it won't improve their working conditions or services or the social wage, isn't it rather a sideshow? And won't it benefit some fairly openly anti-working class people, such as Johnson?


Yes, but she hits the nail on the head wrt the way in which the leavists have exploited working anger/disillusionment with neoliberalism to foster support for Brexit.


> The referendum has become a way in which they can have their say, and *they are saying collectively that their lives have been better than they are today.*


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> do you think lisa wrote the headline?


No, but if it seriously misrepresents her position I'll expect her to try to get it changed or complain publicly. It's a pretty strong statement.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 15, 2016)

Who is speaking for them though?  Who is funding a campaign on their behalf?  People looking out for their own interests, not theirs.  The two probably don't overlap.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> No, but if it seriously misrepresents her position I'll expect her to try to get it changed or complain publicly. It's a pretty strong statement.


nowhere in the article does she say 'and this is how things will change' or 'i set out below how things will change', rather she is saying 'the brexit vote is a chance for the working class to stick two fingers up at the government'. i don't know where you get your expectations from, you might be looking at a different article to me.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything | Lisa Mckenzie
> 
> It's not an especially good piece, but at least she's on the right side


Mckenzie has an unfortunate habit of making wide generalisations and talking about groups as if they were one homogenous whole. She's very guilty of that in this piece.



> Working-class people in the UK can see a possibility that something might change for them if they vote to leave the EU. The women in east London and the men in the mining towns all tell me the worst thing is that things stay the same.



Really? All of them?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 15, 2016)

Aren't EU workers here part of the working class too?  Who speaks for them?  They don't even get to vote - they're literally disenfranchised.  Why is there a tendency (from both sides) to conflate 'working class' with 'white British'?


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> nowhere in the article does she say 'and this is how things will change' or 'i set out below how things will change', rather she is saying 'the brexit vote is a chance for the working class to stick two fingers up at the government'. i don't know where you get your expectations from, you might be looking at a different article to me.


Perhaps - the headline is outrageous if it isn't her position, but perhaps not surprising in click bait world. Besides, I still find it odd to write that article and not even mention who is or isn't likely to benefit from Brexit.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

"_Virgil, the pod_."


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 15, 2016)

pesh said:


> at Geldof's PA system...



It never occurred to me before I heard this that Bob Geldof is Irish


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 15, 2016)

_"....Juncker approaching at 12 o'clock...."_


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

if he hadn't shown himself to be a pathological liar i think this would be a great argument for brexit


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

That feeling when Bob Geldof is so annoying you consider joining UKIP


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

Can see what she means...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> That feeling when Bob Geldof is so annoying you consider joining UKIP



Assuming she wasn't press-ganged, she boarded the vessel voluntarily...what was she expecting?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Can see what she means...




Everything that is pushing so may towards Brexit here and Trump in the US.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 15, 2016)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The fuckin arrogance of Osborne promising to punish us in the event of a brexit vote with £30bn of tax rises and spending cuts. I reckon that'll help a lot of people make up their minds, and not all in the way Sniffer wants them to vote.




Silly cunt's out of a job on 24th June if we vote out.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 15, 2016)

twats ahoy


----------



## discokermit (Jun 15, 2016)

lol! Leave And Remain Boats Face-Off On The Thames

Bethany Pickering told Shelagh Fogarty that Mr Geldof was swearing at the fishermen 

She said: "We didn't expect it would be a billionaire being condescending to fishermen.

"And we didn't expect that it would be as vicious as it was. There was a lot of negativity, which is not something I've found too often with the Remain campaign.

"I think potentially Bob Geldof did a lot of damage [to the Remain campaign], especially among the fishing communities that weren't sure how they were going to vote.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 15, 2016)

.


----------



## Cid (Jun 15, 2016)

teqniq said:


> Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything | Lisa Mckenzie



We've just had that and it's not a very good article anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

discokermit said:


> lol! Leave And Remain Boats Face-Off On The Thames
> 
> Bethany Pickering told Shelagh Fogarty that Mr Geldof was swearing at the fishermen
> 
> ...


Didn't know bg was a billionaire


----------



## discokermit (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Didn't know bg was a billionaire


one song and that was shit. how do they do it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

discokermit said:


> one song and that was shit. how do they do it?


And they also did that song about Mondays


----------



## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

good video though


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

discokermit said:


> one song and that was shit. how do they do it?


investments, not music.  I think he bought facebook shares early on


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

Has there ever been a political campaign in modern British history that has been quite as tone deaf as Remain?


----------



## discokermit (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> investments, not music.  I think he bought facebook shares early on


contacts as well. getting him well paid speaking gigs at poverty conferences.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 15, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> It's rather an odd piece. She doesn't mention one example of how working class people will benefit from Brexit. Just that working class people have something to say, and now they have a chance to say it. But if it won't improve their working conditions or services or the social wage, isn't it rather a sideshow? And won't it benefit some fairly openly anti-working class people, such as Johnson?


I think the referendum now, for many people, rightly or wrongly, has become a referendum on the status quo. Doesn't really matter about the details anymore, lets give these cunts a kicking. Osborne's intervention this morning further assures this.


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2016)

brogdale said:


>



We've run out of track


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I think the referendum now, for many people, rightly or wrongly, has become a referendum on the status quo. Doesn't really matter about the details anymore, lets give these cunts a kicking. Osborne's intervention this morning further assures this.



'Fortunately' Mr Geldoff distracted attention from it with his loadsamoney impression.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm no longer confident in my earlier 65ish% Remain 35%ish Leave prediction.


I do still think Remain will win, but it might be close.


----------



## belboid (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Has there ever been a political campaign in modern British history that has been quite as tone deaf as Remain?


Better Together


----------



## mather (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Better Together



From what I can remember of the Scottish referendum, I would say the current EU referendum is worse.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

mather said:


> From what I can remember of the Scottish referendum, I would say the current EU referendum is worse.



It was definitely more effective


----------



## Combustible (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> It was definitely more effective



In both cases, the only weapon that seems to have any impact is "project fear". And I think it's less effective this time around, one reason may be that leaving the EU seems a lot less drastic to many people than the breaking apart of the UK.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 15, 2016)

belboid said:


> Brexit is the only way the working class can change anything | Lisa Mckenzie
> 
> It's not an especially good piece, but at least she's on the right side


Pretty shameful piece tbh. Sad.  The financial crisis destroyed wages, not immigration. Really economically illiterate, sad to see this from the left, whichever bits she says she represents, no critique of the long term failings of the economic system, just repeating nationalist nonsense about wages/immigration.

Both the nationalists and the neo-liberals were wedded to their economic system, but when it - when the private sector - collapsed in 2008/09 it ends some years later with left wingers blaming immigrants, not the crisis, for wage declines. Very sad. And very worrying for the next recession, who will be blamed then?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 15, 2016)

Gove is on BBC1 QT special atm, everything will be rosy if we leave [vomit]..


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

M


Coolfonz said:


> Pretty shameful piece tbh. Sad.  The financial crisis destroyed wages, not immigration. Really economically illiterate, sad to see this from the left, whichever bits she says she represents, no critique of the long term failings of the economic system, just repeating nationalist nonsense about wages/immigration.
> 
> Both the nationalists and the neo-liberals were wedded to their economic system, but when it - when the private sector - collapsed in 2008/09 it ends some years later with left wingers blaming immigrants, not the crisis, for wage declines. Very sad. And very worrying for the next recession, who will be blamed then?



Maybe if the left had done more when the crash happened there wouldn't have been this turn, one anti-austerity demo every other year, etc, if indeed it is a turn, and challenging open borders is not right wing.


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Can see what she means...







> Brexshit
> 
> Yawnarama, there is fish in the shops who the frig cares who obtains it



Comment from Brexshit posted elsewhere, with allies like this....


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 15, 2016)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I think the referendum now, for many people, rightly or wrongly, has become a referendum on the status quo. Doesn't really matter about the details anymore, lets give these cunts a kicking. Osborne's intervention this morning further assures this.



Just a shame that they didn't vote to give the cunts a kicking in the last general election when it really mattered.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Has there ever been a political campaign in modern British history that has been quite as tone deaf as Remain?


yes. Scottish labour. They won the battle but lost the war.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 15, 2016)

Brexit. Shite arguments from Farage and Johnson and the like.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 15, 2016)

some cunt whose spent nine years in student politics backed up by a man who looks like the picture dictionary definition of the bank manager who refused you a loan. A winning combo


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

> Some food for thought, it is a comment (not mine) from another fb page: 'Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
> Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
> Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
> Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
> ...



From FB, if this is the case, its pretty shocking, of course, they haven't mentioned what has come to the UK.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

Just been having a read of some discussions amongst Izquierda Unida and Podemos supporters about Brexit, pretty interesting. Podemos' official position is pro-EU and the Spanish Communist Party (which makes up IU alongside the Green Party) is in favour of leaving the EU and the euro. However, if these discussions are at all representative their supporters seem pretty buoyed by the prospect of Brexit for a few different reasons. Some are enthusiastic about it because it would reduce the number of right-wingers in the European parliament but more seem to be in favour because it would open up space for an eventual Spanish exit from the EU and the euro


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> From FB, if this is the case, its pretty shocking, of course, they haven't mentioned what has come to the UK.


Have you checked to see if it's true?

e2a: on second thoughts don't bother replying, it's plain the answer's "no"


----------



## mather (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> It was definitely more effective



Of course, they won that one after all.

However it is this referendum on the EU which has seen an upsurge in anti-working class hatred from many within the Remain camp. The actions of that cunt Bob Geldof are just one example out of many.

Besides the possibility of us leaving the EU, if any good is to come out of this referendum it is that we have seen just who our allies are and it is not the liberals and their soft-left fellow travellers.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> From FB,...
> 
> The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations.


What Chinese steel is that and where has it failed "catastrophically"?


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 15, 2016)

Cid said:


> We've just had that and it's not a very good article anyway.



Call me a liar, an idiot or a wrong ’un if you like, but I’m still voting leave | Giles Fraser

...neither's this particularly...although Fraser is arguing for Brexit because he's in _*favour *_of ( more ) open borders...


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 15, 2016)




----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

mather said:


> Of course, they won that one after all.
> 
> However it is this referendum on the EU which has seen an upsurge in anti-working class hatred from many within the Remain camp. The actions of that cunt Bob Geldof are just one example out of many.



I think that this is right. They are just enjoying punching down too much to stop even if they realise that it is doing their side no good.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Didn't know bg was a billionaire



He's not worth anything like that, twenty or thirty million, which isn't to be sniffed at, but not close to a billionaire.


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

He owns Ten Alps, etc


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm a cautious remainer but its becoming clear that brexit for many poor working class people is a big FU to the comfortably off and a cry for help, sneering at them like many of the liberal left have done is counterproductive.


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

> British people should get on and do the jobs then. Migrant workers do the jobs that British people don't want to do - like cleaning, catering, caring, and farm work, and they are usually better qualified than is needed. If British people are genuinely concerned about a lack of jobs then they should get off their high horses and demand decent pay for menial jobs, and do them. No one's stopping you!



The authentic voice of the liberal left? on JC4PM FB site.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> He owns Ten Alps, etc



Ten Alps currently has a market cap of £4.4m, and BG doesn't own all the shares.


----------



## mather (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that this is right. They are just enjoying punching down too much to stop even if they realise that it is doing their side no good.



I'm of the opinion that they no longer really care. Many people have commented that this referendum has turned into something more than just a question of our membership of the EU. I tend to agree with this viewpoint and I suspect that the liberals and their fellow travellers have used this referendum as an opportunity to come out into the open with what I knew all along, that when the chips are down liberals will *always* side with the establishment and capital, especially its most dominant and globally minded factions.


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> The authentic voice of the liberal left? on JC4PM FB site.



What do you mean by that? The JC4PM account has come out with some weird stuff before but surely you mean it is someone commenting on it rather than the actual account making that sort of bigoted statement?


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

> * The crumbling of the remain vote shows how hollowed out Labour has become *
> Being called a racist scumbag won’t persuade me – or the victims of globalisation – to vote remain. The total disconnect between the bourgeoisie and voters on the doorstep reveals a crisis for left
> Suzanne Moore
> 
> The crumbling of the remain vote shows how hollowed out Labour has become | Suzanne Moore


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

2hats said:


> What Chinese steel is that and where has it failed "catastrophically"?


In his imagination


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> What do you mean by that? The JC4PM account has come out with some weird stuff before but surely you mean it is someone commenting on it rather than the actual account making that sort of bigoted statement?



there are a number of comments like this on those sites, 

my worry is the middle class will finally abandon the poor if they see them as all outers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> I'm a cautious remainer but its becoming clear that brexit for many poor working class people is a big FU to the comfortably off and a cry for help, sneering at them like many of the liberal left have done is counterproductive.


Yep. A cameronite as I thought.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> there are a number of comments like this on those sites,
> 
> my worry is the middle class will finally abandon the poor if they see them as all outers.


"will"?


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 15, 2016)

...the dynamic that slightly concerns me is that people who had decided to register Leave purely as a protest vote on the assumption it was going down to heroic plucky defeat and largely tuned out Remain's Foghorn of Doom might succumb to second thoughts if Brexit actually looks like winning...but as long as that's "in the numbers"...


----------



## J Ed (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> there are a number of comments like this on those sites,
> 
> my worry is the middle class will finally abandon the poor if they see them as all outers.



Pretty sure that the sort of middle-class person who thinks that way is already long past the point of ever being an ally of any sort of politics I want any part in.


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

> It can’t see that a steel plant closing, or the boarded-up shops of the east coast, or the eastern Europeans in the Fen towns picking peas in return for a box of chicken and chips have resulted in another type of anti-globalisation protest, which is, of course, Brexit. Wages are down, escape routes blocked, and yet the London political class venture to these half-empty shopping centres to bring glad tidings of the contribution of immigrants. They will care for us when we are old, and, anyway, there is a new Eritrean restaurant you should try. Loft conversion, you say? Here is the number of my Polish/Brazilian builders.



Suzanne Moore doesn't hold back here.


----------



## gosub (Jun 15, 2016)

2hats said:


> What Chinese steel is that and where has it failed "catastrophically"?



iirc they are building a simlar one in France and the steel on the core casing was found to be so flawed they had to recast, which lead to doubts about Hinkley


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> Suzanne Moore doesn't hold back here.


Yet you follow David Cameron's bremain


----------



## treelover (Jun 15, 2016)

Doesn't mean I agree with her, does it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> Doesn't mean I agree with her, does it?


Do you know something about David Cameron you should tell us?


----------



## mather (Jun 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Pretty sure that the sort of middle-class person who thinks that way is already long past the point of ever being an ally of any sort of politics I want any part in.



Indeed. There are many things wrong with the left and many of the assumptions that they hold, one of them being the view that soft-left middle class types and liberals are in any way our allies or that they are somehow the 'nicer' and 'more progressive' faction of the establishment and capital. Unfortunately we live in an era where it is politically fashionable to debate any issue other than class and economic power relations. Many on the left have fallen for this unfortunate development as they now waste their time and resources on non-issues and distractions like identity politics and the like.


----------



## chilango (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Do you know something about David Cameron you should tell us?


I do.

He fucked a dead pig in the mouth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 15, 2016)

chilango said:


> I do.
> 
> He fucked a dead pig in the mouth.


It was treelover's description of him as her which raised my eyebrow


----------



## 2hats (Jun 15, 2016)

gosub said:


> iirc they are building a simlar one in France and the steel on the core casing was found to be so flawed they had to recast, which lead to doubts about Hinkley


The French (EDF) are building a nuclear reactor (EPR design) at Flamanville. The steel used for the pressure vessel (and several others they are building/are due to build, including that for Hinkley Point) has been found to be sub-standard and thus not suitable for use in that role (too much carbon so too weak).

The steel (for each of the pressure vessels) was forged at Le Creusot, in France, by a French company, several years ago. Each has been identified as faulty during the construction process. That might be considered catastrophic for each project concerned but the steel vessels themselves haven't failed catastrophically.

So - in summary - not Chinese steel and no catastrophic failure. Are the accompanying 'facts' in the rest of the piece equally well researched?


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 15, 2016)

2hats said:


> So - in summary - not Chinese steel and no catastrophic failure. Are the accompanying 'facts' in the rest of the piece equally well researched?



The stuff about trains and Swindon is bollocks, or at least not relevant to a debate about the EU - it was closed down in the 80s by BR due to the railways being deliberately run down by Thatcher. Fuck all to do with the EU. Similarly the public utilities being flogged off abroad - often to state-owned organisations.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 15, 2016)

treelover said:


> M
> 
> 
> Maybe if the left had done more when the crash happened there wouldn't have been this turn, one anti-austerity demo every other year, etc, if indeed it is a turn, and challenging open borders is not right wing.


"Open borders"? Seriously?

You have an opinion on `open borders`. But do you have an opinion on the financial crisis? What it did to wages? What it did to employment in the EU, the UK? What it to working people all over the EU?  What did it do to people movements? What about internally in the UK? Let alone in Europe. `Open borders`, jesus christ. Depressing.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 15, 2016)

Suzanne Moore could do a lot better job of criticising London-Labour elitism if her points were fact based, rather than wildly exaggerated cliche-based hyperbole. It's not like all her points are completely wrong, but posing as an anti-metropolitan-elitist crusader is about as convincing as Boris Johnson trying it. Populist bollocks.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Yet you follow David Cameron's bremain



And you follow whose Brexit? Really a depressing series of arguments, on here, and in general.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 15, 2016)

Edit: Ach, not worth it.


----------



## mather (Jun 15, 2016)

William of Walworth said:


> Suzanne Moore could do a lot better job of criticising London-Labour elitism if her points were fact based, rather than wildly exaggerated cliche-based hyperbole. It's not like all her points are completely wrong, but posing as an anti-metropolitan-elitist crusader is about as convincing as Boris Johnson trying it. Populist bollocks.



This is a rather odd criticism. Not all arguments need to be one hundred percent fact based (though some do obviously) and this especially true on this issue. The issue of Labour's metropolitan elitism is one of perception rooted in fact, the fact that Labour has long ago abandoned working class people and communities as they now prefer to chase after the middle class liberal vote instead. Unless you have been living under a rock for the last few decades hardly anyone can argue that Labour has big problems with how it is perceived by many working class voters, not that I have any sympathy for Labour as this is a problem entirely of their own making and they only have themselves to blame for that.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> And you follow whose Brexit?


 
conversely, it's quite amusing to point out to right wing brexit supporters that they are in agreement with arthur scargill / dennis skinner / george galloway


----------



## Thisiswhoiamnow (Jun 15, 2016)

Thing that disturbs me more than anything is the general consensus that no one has a fucking clue what would happen after 'Brexit' fuck me I am fed up of hearing that ridiculous nonsense. Also that it appears to have no impact on those voting for it. I hate being on the same side as David Cameron for anything but really,


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 16, 2016)

Thisiswhoiamnow said:


> Thing that disturbs me more than anything is the general consensus that no one has a fucking clue what would happen after 'Brexit' fuck me I am fed up of hearing that ridiculous nonsense. Also that it appears to have no impact on those voting for it. I hate being on the same side as David Cameron for anything but really,


the problem with the devil you know is that he's still the devil


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

mather said:


> Indeed. There are many things wrong with the left and many of the assumptions that they hold, one of them being the view that soft-left middle class types and liberals are in any way our allies or that they are somehow the 'nicer' and 'more progressive' faction of the establishment and capital. Unfortunately we live in an era where it is politically fashionable to debate any issue other than class and economic power relations. Many on the left have fallen for this unfortunate development as they now waste their time and resources on non-issues and distractions like identity politics and the like.


...and pretending they will `disrupt capital` by leaving the EU  . Yeah, last time capital was disrupted - by itself - in 2008/09 it worked out very bad for capital and really well for working people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

treelover said:


> I'm a cautious remainer but its becoming clear that brexit for many poor working class people is a big FU to the comfortably off and a cry for help, sneering at them like many of the liberal left have done is counterproductive.


Yeh it's always the left in the wrong for you isn't it, whether liberal or otherwise


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Thisiswhoiamnow said:


> Thing that disturbs me more than anything is the general consensus that no one has a fucking clue what would happen after 'Brexit' fuck me I am fed up of hearing that ridiculous nonsense. Also that it appears to have no impact on those voting for it. I hate being on the same side as David Cameron for anything but really,



Get one of these ready for 25th June


----------



## mauvais (Jun 16, 2016)

More fake logos then. Nice.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

mather said:


> This is a rather odd criticism. Not all arguments need to be one hundred percent fact based (though some do obviously) and this especially true on this issue. The issue of Labour's metropolitan elitism is one of perception rooted in fact, the fact that Labour has long ago abandoned working class people and communities as they now prefer to chase after the middle class liberal vote instead. Unless you have been living under a rock for the last few decades hardly anyone can argue that Labour has big problems with how it is perceived by many working class voters, not that I have any sympathy for Labour as this is a problem entirely of their own making and they only have themselves to blame for that.



I actually agree with most of what you're saying about Labour. It's just that I found some parts the Moore piece, and the way she wrote it, idiotic in several ways that sI haven't got time to go into now. (very busy day today, football and Glasto-preparation).

Just an opinion like -- she's written good articles in the past (eg the Hillsborough one) but I plain didn't like the way that one was written.


----------



## newbie (Jun 16, 2016)

mather said:


> I suspect that the liberals and their fellow travellers have used this referendum as an opportunity to come out into the open with what I knew all along, that when the chips are down liberals will *always* side with the establishment and capital, especially its most dominant and globally minded factions.





mather said:


> There are many things wrong with the left and many of the assumptions that they hold, one of them being the view that soft-left middle class types and liberals are in any way our allies or that they are somehow the 'nicer' and 'more progressive' faction of the establishment and capital. Unfortunately we live in an era where it is politically fashionable to debate any issue other than class and economic power relations. Many on the left have fallen for this unfortunate development as they now waste their time and resources on non-issues and distractions like identity politics and the like.



my dilemma in a nutshell.

Head or heart?

Brexit has not won any of the arguments, here, in the mainstream, elsewhere, in my head.  Hollow positions that rely on Wishful Thinking, sticking up two fingers and not much else. And a campaign dominated by virulently right wing xenophobes, incompetent pillocks and free market evangelists. Not here, thankyou all for the U75 island of relative sanity. But out there in the communities, the constituencies and top end politics they're the ones poised and organised to build the future they dream about.  It's not what's dreamed about on here and it's not what I want.

TBH my heart isn't as pure as I wish it was. I've never endorsed the status quo and the thought of voting with the establishment makes me feel sick. I have two fingers too, I want their power broken not bolstered. I recognise there is just the possibility that Brexit might lead to a resurgence in class struggle during a 'disruption to capital'. GOK how, there's nothing visible to give any hope. But I can't, in good conscience, vote for what my head insists will make millions of lives objectively worse than staying in, for years to come.  I just can't.  It's not a binary choice, but if push comes to shove I'd rather millions of people didn't have to go through intense class struggle fighting back against crap conditions I'd deliberately voted to bring about.  Or, more likely, sullen atomised acceptance of ever crapper conditions I'd deliberately voted to bring about.

The ballot is on my desk staring at me.  i have to fill it in and post it today.  I've never been this conflicted before.


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2016)

newbie said:


> my dilemma in a nutshell.
> 
> Head or heart?
> 
> ...


Haven't really thought of the disruption of capital in terms of resurgence of class struggle; part of the "true landscape of uncertainties"   Henri de Castries talks of I suppose. Been thinking more in terms of the capital flight and disruption to capitial in terms of member states. But given who he is and where he'd been the day before.  I found the unpreparedness for negotiations line  and no special treatment with the bloc line reassuring.  As I understand things the smaller EUropean states have known exactly what they've wanted to do (certainly in relation to the  EUro) and been blocked by Germany.  Where German exceptionalism can only grow with time. Its box them in now or they dictate terms.


----------



## newbie (Jun 16, 2016)

gosub said:


> Where German exceptionalism can only grow with time. Its box them in now or they dictate terms.


that's back to whether the plucky little British trawler steers a course with the German fleet or much closer to the American one.  Neither are attractive. No-one has said anything convincing about Atlanticism.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 16, 2016)

This is where the Leave campaign has got to, not even bothering with the dog-whistle any more


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

Yet it's the Remain campaign that is being labelled as 'Project Fear'.

I really hate that this kind of horrible shit is getting such a boost and isn't being robustly challenged by the press or other politicians, just a few people whining on facebook.  See also the leaflet I got through my door a couple of days ago going on about Turkey's ascension, complete with a map showing it bordering Iraq and Syria.  It's not going to stop after the referendum either, these cunts have the wind in their sails.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> complete with a map showing it bordering Iraq and Syria.



What a devious falsehood!


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> What a devious falsehood!



Not what I mean - those were the only other countries labelled on the map.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 16, 2016)




----------



## weltweit (Jun 16, 2016)

newbie said:


> .. The ballot is on my desk staring at me.  i have to fill it in and post it today.  I've never been this conflicted before.


I hope you managed to make your mind up in the end.
And if you can't then I would plump for the lesser of two evils.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

newbie said:


> The ballot is on my desk staring at me.  *i have to fill it in and post it today*.  I've never been this conflicted before.


You really don't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

newbie said:


> I've never been this conflicted before.


fuck me you've had a dull life


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> fuck me you've had a dull life



Being decisive doesn't usually lead to a dull life


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> Being decisive doesn't usually lead to a dull life


now you're being cruel to poor newbie


----------



## newbie (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> fuck me you've had a dull life


that's why i occasionally post here.  How's your exciting life coming along?

Voted stay with a heavy heart.

thanks outers, you tried but you didn't convince.

That's it from me on these threads until after the result and immediate fallout.  Enjoy yourselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

newbie said:


> that's why i occasionally post here.  How's your exciting life coming along?


pretty good tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

newbie said:


> That's it from me on these threads until after the result and immediate fallout.  Enjoy yourselves.


grand


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

newbie said:


> that's why i occasionally post here.  How's your exciting life coming along?
> 
> Voted stay with a heavy heart.
> 
> ...


You could have spoilt with a _light heart._


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You could have spoilt with a _light heart._


Or with a pointless fart


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

belboid said:


> Or with a pointless fart


Oh dear.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

brogdale said:


> You could have spoilt with a _light heart._


Or a spunking cock


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Voting out? On the same side as Farage, Britain First terrorists, the BNP and nazi holocaust deniers Nazi sympathiser working for Vote Leave campaign 

Wtf people?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Voting out? On the same side as Farage, Britain First terrorists, the BNP and nazi holocaust deniers Nazi sympathiser working for Vote Leave campaign
> 
> Wtf people?



Its not like Remain are much better sadly.

I feel this is the major problem here, even more than the usual election cycle, arsehole vs arsehole. How do you pick?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Really? Are there far right people voting to stay in?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Really? Are there far right people voting to stay in?


Tbh we always knew there were unsavoury people on the exit side. Don't tell me you didn't know ukip wanted Britain to leave the EU. To my mind the issue isn't 'what are ukip and other radical right groups doing' but which offers more prospect for positive change. Stop in the eu where we know how things are done and which themselves sided with fascists in Ukraine, or fuck shit up by voting to leave.


----------



## 8den (Jun 16, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its not like Remain are much better sadly.
> 
> I feel this is the major problem here, even more than the usual election cycle, arsehole vs arsehole. How do you pick?



As I see the closest Remain have gotten to Brexit is having Geldof making Wanker signs at Farage...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2016)

8den said:


> As I see the closest Remain have gotten to Brexit is having Geldof making Wanker signs at Farage...


C4 News described the nautical gesticulation display as "_making Anchor signs"._


----------



## teuchter (Jun 16, 2016)

Some light entertainment from someone who doesn't seem to have grasped the difference between England and the UK and which of those entities is voting to leave the EU. 

Fairly sure this was not intended as a parody.





> CONSCIENCE
> 
> In the name of conscience, what the Dickens is going on in this deeply serious referendum? Both sides should be bowing their heads in shame.
> 
> ...


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh we always knew there were unsavoury people on the exit side. Don't tell me you didn't know ukip wanted Britain to leave the EU. To my mind the issue isn't 'what are ukip and other radical right groups doing' but which offers more prospect for positive change. Stop in the eu where we know how things are done and which themselves sided with fascists in Ukraine, or fuck shit up by voting to leave.


I have to disagree. The rw Brexiters are filth. Not trying to have a row, I know people here are sound, but I'm now deffo voting in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> I have to disagree. The rw Brexiters are filth. Not trying to have a row, I know people here are sound, but I'm now deffo voting in.


do what your conscience dictates


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 16, 2016)

...Sir Oswald & Lady Diana Mosley were fervent pro-Europeans...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> I have to disagree. *The rw Brexiters are filth. *Not trying to have a row, I know people here are sound, but I'm now deffo voting in.



As are the right wing remainers...which suggests that you need a different way of deciding how to cast your vote.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> As are the right wing remainers...which suggests that you need a different way of deciding how to cast your vote.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


I dont line up with nazis. I realise governments have killed more people. But I'm not siding with nazis.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 16, 2016)

So you oppose the re-nationalisation of industries?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> I dont line up with nazis. I realise governments have killed more people. But I'm not siding with nazis.



So anyone voting to leave is lining up/siding with nazis...is that what you're telling me?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...Sir Oswald & Lady Diana Mosley were fervent pro-Europeans...


Hence the union movement


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Technically yes. But thats not what I mean as you a) know and b) can easily see from "Not trying to have a row, I know people here are sound".


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2016)

Most of the far right in the EU actually support continued membership


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Technically yes. But thats not what I mean as you a) know and b) can easily see from "Not trying to have a row, I know people here are sound".



So you need not be lining up with nazis; you could choose to line up with some of the sound people on here. This is why I said about needing a different way of choosing...the nazi thing doesn't really work.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 16, 2016)

teqniq said:


>



 closer to the famous labour isn't working one I'd say. in terms of semiology ahem


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So you need not be lining up with nazis; you could choose to line up with some of the sound people on here. This is why I said about needing a different way of choosing...the nazi thing doesn't really work.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Does for me.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 16, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Does for me.



Nazis eat sugar. Maybe you should reconsider your dietary habits.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> closer to the famous labour isn't working one I'd say. in terms of semiology ahem


No I don't think so at all. In the labour isn't working, the queue was 'us'. In this image, the queue is very very much 'them'. Totally different.


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2016)

It pretty clearly strongly resembles both. Garage would probably be thinking of the 1979 poster, the one that he and us actually remember, but this will be even scarier because it's full of dark skinned people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 16, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> closer to the famous labour isn't working one I'd say. in terms of semiology ahem


unless you intend to invoke saussure, i think you mean semiotics


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2016)

belboid said:


> It pretty clearly strongly resembles both. Garage would probably be thinking of the 1979 poster, the one that he and us actually remember, but this will be even scarier because it's full of dark skinned people.


It still has a pretty much inverted message from that one. That one was dangling the spectre of the dole queue, as in 'that could be you joining them'. (oh the irony). This one is dangling the spectre of 'them' joining 'us'.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Nazis eat sugar. Maybe you should reconsider your dietary habits.



The average human being has one bollock or less.

Just saying.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jun 16, 2016)

Have to say I'm with newbie and  Coolfonz here.

Much as I  respect and understand the left-Brexit arguments, and Kelvin Hopkins has for a long time been my favourite left-Labour dissident MP, I voted Remain.

And that was pretty much 98.9% to do with *not* lining myself with the immigration-obsessives dominating the UK-establishment Brexit campaign  

Yes, I do also perfectly well know that the UK-estabishment Remain campaign isn't worth a fuck either ...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jun 17, 2016)

teqniq said:


>




In Germany they'd call Nigel a pinstripe Nazi.


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

> Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt | John Harris





> Stoke, Merthyr, Birmingham, Manchester and even rural Shropshire, the same lines recurred: so unchanging that they threatened to turn into cliches, but all the more powerful because of their ubiquity. “I’m scared about the future” … “No one listens to us” … “If you haven’t got money, no one cares.”



John Harris seems to be getting somewhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:
			
		

> John Harris seems to be getting somewhere.


incisive analysis treelover

where do you think he is getting?


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

You tell me stalker?

That they feel abandoned, ignored, including by much of civil society and the left, i wait the organised left setting up food banks, new charities, social housing, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> That they feel abandoned, ignored, including by much of civil society and the left, i wait the organised left setting up food banks, new charities, social housing, etc.


and as if by magic it's _another_ dig at the left. 

food banks: have you never heard of food not bombs? social housing: have you not heard of the advisory service for squatters? "new charities"?  you're a tory and no mistake, your only difference with that nefandous party being your objection to ids.


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

plenty of new charities for refugees, no problem with that, but you seem to have one?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> That they feel abandoned, ignored, including by much of civil society and the left, i wait the organised left setting up food banks, new charities, social housing, etc.





treelover said:


> plenty of new charities for refugees, no problem with that, but you seem to have one?


wait a minute. one minute you want the left to set up new charities to ameliorate conditions for the working class, the next you start spouting on about charities for refugees. why is this?


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> plenty of new charities for refugees, no problem with that, but you seem to have one?


Do fuck off


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> wait a minute. one minute you want the left to set up new charities to ameliorate conditions for the working class, the next you start spouting on about charities for refugees. why is this?



because you have just decried the use of charities by the left, i just gave examples of new ones.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> because you have just decried the use of charities by the left, i just gave examples of new ones.


no, i did not decry the use of charities by the left. i was disparaging your suggestion that the left establish new charities. 

next.


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

Anything to say about JH's article?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> Anything to say about JH's article?


yes.it's covering much the same ground as lisa mckenzie's article.


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

and


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> and


just piss off tory boy, there's a good lad.


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

Ha, Ha, just because I don't agree with some ideas of the un-reconstructed left I am a Tory or even a liberal democratic(Hocus)

I certainly am proud I was never a member of the SWP for example.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> Ha, Ha, just because I don't agree with some ideas of the un-reconstructed left I am a Tory or even a liberal democratic(Hocus)
> 
> I certainly am proud I was never a member of the SWP for example.


no, it has nothing to do with you not agreeing with 'some ideas of the un-reconstructed left'.


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> Ha, Ha, just because I don't agree with some ideas of the un-reconstructed left I am a Tory or even a liberal democratic(Hocus)
> 
> I certainly am proud I was never a member of the SWP for example.


Day 1: declare your 'devastation' at the murder of Jo Cox

Day 2: repeat the rationale of her killer

Maybe that's why


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> I certainly am proud I was never a member of the SWP for example.


to their credit they wouldn't have had you


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

Disgusting smears, this board is becoming rank

some of its posters anyway.


----------



## belboid (Jun 17, 2016)

They're not smears if they're true


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> Disgusting smears, this board is becoming rank
> 
> some of its posters anyway.


so do tell me why it's always the left - liberal and otherwise - for which you reserve your sneers


----------



## treelover (Jun 17, 2016)

Because they could do so so much more and begin to resemble a real opposition

anyway, out of here for now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> Because they could do so so much more and begin to resemble a real opposition
> 
> anyway, out of here for now.


good. and close the door after you.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 17, 2016)

...and have you seen the _*size*_ of his frickin' gut....


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> plenty of new charities for refugees, no problem with that, but you seem to have one?


putting the national back in socialist eh?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> Disgusting smears, this board is becoming rank
> 
> some of its posters anyway.


its great how right wing people always see themselves as victims. today if anyone mentions the fact the guy who killed Cox was a far rightist they are immediately trying to `politicise/smear` etc. incredible. and consistent.


----------



## andysays (Jun 17, 2016)

treelover said:


> Stoke, Merthyr, Birmingham, Manchester and even rural Shropshire, the same lines recurred: so unchanging that they threatened to turn into cliches, but all the more powerful because of their ubiquity. “I’m scared about the future” … “No one listens to us” … “If you haven’t got money, no one cares.”



Nothing that you've quoted and nothing else in the article supports the headline claiming


> Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt


If the article supports any conclusion, it's more that the working class feels scared, unlistened to, uncared about and utterly powerless, none of which suggest revolt any time soon.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 17, 2016)

Nigel Farage's anti-immigrant poster reported to police over claims it incites racial hatred


----------



## Cid (Jun 17, 2016)

Pie's done a nice cathartic rant:


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

nuffsaid said:


> Brexit Land - I'm really wanting someone to make a spoof of Brexit using the music to Soft Cell's 'Bedsit Land'.



Mike Read?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well the obvious tiny crack here which could lead to a Labour government is the fact that a Leave vote would undoubtedly lead to the ouster of David Cameron though we obviously don't know whether that would lead to new elections or not. I'm not sure if he will be able to stay on either way to be honest, the Tory base and so many Tory MPs are openly baying for his blood. In the event of new elections it is very unlikely that we will get a Labour majority but I do think it is quite likely that the Tories would lose theirs, and in any case having elections before the planned gerrymandering of constituencies would be a significant blow to the Tories.



Replacing him with a more populist and popular leader like Boris?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> There's a whole of snide assumptions and dishonesty in this post.
> 
> First of all the use of _support_ in the 1st paragraph, where support has become (either deliberately or accidentally I'm not sure) a synonym for _voting remain_. This is absolute nonsense, as much nonsense as arguing that because people vote Tory/Labour/LibDem/etc they don't support the re-nationalisation of the railways. Or that if people voted Labour in 2005 they must have Iraq War supporters. Many (most?) Remain voters, and certainly most of those on the Left don't _support_ the EU at all, they simple consider staying in the EU a better alternative than leaving.
> 
> ...



It's not going to top the financial crash for disruption to capital and that went very badly for labour.

I can't disagree with the two fingers up, even now Remain fail to address the scarcities and insecurities people face.

But I believe leaving means more austerity, more isolation, less cooperation/progressive shared laws and it seals the deal that w class politics in the UK is overwhelmingly of the right and shares its irrationalities.


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 18, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> What I have seen people argue is that it will disrupt capital, and that opens up possibilities for labour.



In the same way that jumping in front of a train disrupts the railway network and opens up possibilities for nationalisation.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 18, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Well the obvious tiny crack here which could lead to a Labour government is the fact that a Leave vote would undoubtedly lead to the ouster of David Cameron though we obviously don't know whether that would lead to new elections or not. I'm not sure if he will be able to stay on either way to be honest, the Tory base and so many Tory MPs are openly baying for his blood. In the event of new elections it is very unlikely that we will get a Labour majority but I do think it is quite likely that the Tories would lose theirs, and in any case having elections before the planned gerrymandering of constituencies would be a significant blow to the Tories.



I don't see any reason to believe Brexit  works better than remaining in this respect. A vote to remain would leave the Tories massively divided and ripe for a coup. The next election would be fought on a re run of the referendum and as 'One Nation' (sic) Tories will baulk at going against the result UKIP can stand unopposed for leaving. Tories will defect in large numbers and Labour could run on pro EU, but with large scale reform, ticket.

Leave and the transition to Team Bojo is seamless, the rationale for UKIP disappears and the next Tory majority seismic.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2016)

What's not to like?


> *Tony Blair and two former deputy prime ministers, Lord Heseltine and Nick Clegg*, have launched a late plea to voters to reject “division, isolationism and blame” and vote on Thursday to stay in the EU.
> 
> *After the tragic killing of Labour MP Jo Cox, they say the country is living in “worrying times” in which people must work together and unite, not pull each other apart.*


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Why the fuck do people think Boris Johnson will be automatically crowned emperor the day after a leave vote?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

And why do people think he'd be any different to Cameron anyway?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> I don't see any reason to believe Brexit  works better than remaining in this respect. A vote to remain would leave the Tories massively divided and ripe for a coup. The next election would be fought on a re run of the referendum and as 'One Nation' (sic) Tories will baulk at going against the result UKIP can stand unopposed for leaving. Tories will defect in large numbers and Labour could run on pro EU, but with large scale reform, ticket.
> 
> Leave and the transition to Team Bojo is seamless, the rationale for UKIP disappears and the next Tory majority seismic.



Yeah, _seismic!_. I'll quote you on this if a leave vote actually wins out. You'll be wrong, btw.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Punters sensing Leave's time has come...and gone...


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 19, 2016)

....no idea what to make of this...

Exclusive poll: EU support falls after Jo Cox murder

British support for remaining in the European Union has weakened in the wake of the murder of the pro-EU politician Jo Cox, according to an online research company Friday.

Qriously, a London-based technology start-up that gathers data and intelligence about consumers through mobile phone apps, found that backing among likely voters for Britain's EU membership has dropped to 32% from 40% before her death.

Qriously found that 52% will vote to leave the bloc in a national referendum on June 23. The figure is unchanged from before the parliamentarian's death. The weakening support for remaining in the EU coincided with a large move toward "Don't know," which leaped to 16% from 9% before Cox's assassination.

The poll was based on 1,992 British adults surveyed on June 13-16, and then 1,002 on June 17 — the day after Cox was shot and killed in northern England. The start-up claims to have held the first such survey on the topic since the lawmaker's slaying. Most of Qriously’s surveys are done for corporate brands and it has not been previously conducted an EU referendum poll.
........
Stephan Shakespeare, the founder and chief executive British polling firm YouGov, told USA TODAY he did not think Cox's murder would lead to a shift in attitudes toward the vote, "but the nature of the campaigning will be changed and that probably will have an impact" on opinion.


----------



## gosub (Jun 19, 2016)

In  the last week, leavers in favour of EEA route seem to think they have found a loop hole for blocking freedom of movement, based on the the exceptionalism of Liechtenstein.  Liechtenstein IS exceptional - The only country to come out of WW1 with more soldiers than it started with (weren't allowed to actually fight, and an Italian that was looking for work took their number from 79 to 80), a Principality SO small they can and do rent the whole place by the day.   Using them for precedent for drawbridge politics actually reduces the chances of the EEA route being workable.

Any actual negotiations are down to H.M.G.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yeah, _seismic!_. I'll quote you on this if a leave vote actually wins out. You'll be wrong, btw.



Because? What is going to happen to disrupt the Tories chances if we vote leave?

Cameron won't be fighting the next election anyway so the leadership change is unimportant. But it will take place soon. And if not Johnson or Gove then who? Osbourne? Not a leader and anyway vote in a Remain crony and the infighting continues.

What makes you think a 'leave' vote is worse for them when in the event of 'remain' UKIP will gather the sort of support the SNP did?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Because? What is going to happen to disrupt the Tories chances if we vote leave?


Disillusionment when, economically, things don't change/get worse.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Won't happen anyway, not with numbers like this deteriorating for the leavists...


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Disillusionment when, economically, things don't change/get worse.



If you believe that is the case and the establishment were not fibbing surely you'll want to vote remain. No one needs more austerity.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> If you believe that is the case and the establishment were not fibbing surely you'll want to vote remain. No one needs more austerity.


I believe that's likely whatever 'choice' the electorate make on Thursday...which partly explains why I'm a spoiler.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2016)

> 4m ago09:39
> 
> Corbyn ends by telling people to reflect on the wise words of* Rowan Williams*, the former archbishop of Canterbury, today.
> 
> ...



Yes, Jez...but equally 'fortress EU' might reflect on those words...the EU is really very UKIPy in its determination to block those seeking refuge.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 19, 2016)

how come everytime rowan williams farted it made the news yet I can't even remember the new bods name.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> how come everytime rowan williams farted it made the news yet I can't even remember the new bods name.


Williams jr


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Because? What is going to happen to disrupt the Tories chances if we vote leave?



What is going to empower them if we do? They will be just as divided either way. They have a crap majority as it stands. Now throw in the fact that different factions of Tories will be holding resentment against each other, and there is a recipe for deadlock in the party. Leave or remain, there will be no crowning of emperors. No newly-empowered leadership capable of imposing their visions.



> Cameron won't be fighting the next election anyway so the leadership change is unimportant. But it will take place soon. And if not Johnson or Gove then who? Osbourne? Not a leader and anyway vote in a Remain crony and the infighting continues.
> 
> What makes you think a 'leave' vote is worse for them when in the event of 'remain' UKIP will gather the sort of support the SNP did?



Seriously? UKIP are on the verge of an SNP-style surge in support?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Leave and the transition to Team Bojo is seamless, the rationale for UKIP disappears and the next Tory majority seismic.



Also, you still haven't explained how "the transition to Team Bojo" will be "seamless", why you think that Johnson would be any different from Cameron/Osborne, or why leaving would make UKIP disappear, or why any of this means an increased Tory majority (a _seismic_ one at that).


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What is going to empower them if we do? They will be just as divided either way. They have a crap majority as it stands. Now throw in the fact that different factions of Tories will be holding resentment against each other, and there is a recipe for deadlock in the party. Leave or remain, there will be no crowning of emperors. No newly-empowered leadership capable of imposing their visions.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? UKIP are on the verge of an SNP-style surge in support?



UKIP would go massive on a remain vote. The barriers to voting for them have broken down. In the South East outside of London 60-40 agree with their central position and agree with it passionately right now.

A remain vote will leave those voters feeling as betrayed as Scottish labour voters evidently were. If you don't think so you must conclude that leave just goes away quietly accepting a narrow defeat.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Also, you still haven't explained how "the transition to Team Bojo" will be "seamless", why you think that Johnson would be any different from Cameron/Osborne, or why leaving would make UKIP disappear, or why any of this means an increased Tory majority (a _seismic_ one at that).



A Johnson, or Gove coronation is a formality because without it the Tories will be out of step with their voters and unable, in the event of a remain, to stem the tide to UKIP.

In the event of Leave they won and have the support of the electorate as opposed to busted flush Cameron and his colleagues. How can Cameron or other remainers manage the exit _they have said they do not believe in?_


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> UKIP would go massive on a remain vote. The barriers to voting for them have broken down. In the South East outside of London 60-40 agree with their central position and agree with it passionately right now.
> 
> A remain vote will leave those voters feeling as betrayed as Scottish labour voters evidently were. If you don't think so you must conclude that leave just goes away quietly accepting a narrow defeat.



So UKIP are either on the brink of extinction in the case of a leave vote, or ready to soar like a phoenix from the ashes in the case of a remain one? No other possibility here? Like that nothing much changes at all in practice?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

Also Johnson and Gove will be able to blame any economic downturn on outsiders. Fits in well with the narrative. If any of the negative economic issues come into being - say another 250,000 on the dole - it will be easy for them to blame Europe, immigrants. Cameron would be toast.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> Also Johnson and Gove will be able to blame any economic downturn on outsiders. Fits in well with the narrative. If any of the negative economic issues come into being - say another 250,000 on the dole - it will be easy for them to blame Europe, immigrants. Cameron would be toast.



You don't think that a new Tory leadership this soon after a general election might create a crisis of legitimacy for the government? The day after any Tory coup there would be demands for a new election, and those demands would grow in volume every day after that. Anyway, they still have their tiny majority whatever happens. That's the practical reality on the ground.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

Johnson and Gove just want power. They wouldn't need an election. Crisis management etc would be the excuse. And the more crisis the better for them really, one of their main hands - and Farage's of course who is more straight - is being a victim of foreigners. Farage said today he is "a victim". He is "demonised". It fits well for them, economic problems will be the fault of vindictive Brussels, immigrants, `bankers`, liberal elite etc...


----------



## B.I.G (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You don't think that a new Tory leadership this soon after a general election might create a crisis of legitimacy for the government? The day after any Tory coup there would be demands for a new election, and those demands would grow in volume every day after that. Anyway, they still have their tiny majority whatever happens. That's the practical reality on the ground.



Of course there are LOADS of cases of crises of legitimacy for governments.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

This is beginning to remind me of "Boris Johnson: The New Hitler!". It's like a trip Bizarro World. Pure fantasy.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> So UKIP are either on the brink of extinction in the case of a leave vote, or ready to soar like a phoenix from the ashes in the case of a remain one? No other possibility here? Like that nothing much changes at all in practice?



If you believe nothing much changes why on earth vote leave for an ascended right and an isolationist uk?

The game has changed since the initial calculations that Dave could be beaten. He is wounded and virtually friendless. The Tories who can carry their project on are on leave's side.

And yes UKIP are on a knife edge, that's the single issue thing.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> If you believe nothing much changes why on earth vote leave for an ascended right and an isolationist uk?



I'm not voting for that though. Leave won't result in an 'ascended right'.


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not voting for that though.



That's what you will get though.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> I'm not voting for that though. Leave won't result in an 'ascended right'.


None of us know right? Crystal balls etc. But you hope it won't happen.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> None of us know right? Crystal balls etc. But you hope it won't happen.



We don't need crystal balls to tell us what the Tory majority will be on Friday morning.


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> We don't need crystal balls to tell us what the Tory majority will be on Friday morning.


You hope the right won't gain in strength from Brexit.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> You hope the right won't gain in strength from Brexit.



How will they gain strength? Through what mechanism?


----------



## Coolfonz (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How will they gain strength? Through what mechanism?



I like your certainty. Can you tell me the score of France Switzerland as well?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> I like your certainty. Can you tell me the score of France Switzerland as well?



I asked a question.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Coolfonz said:


> None of us know right? Crystal balls etc. But you hope it won't happen.


Can you support your earlier claims please?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How will they gain strength? Through what mechanism?


Powers. Just.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 19, 2016)

So I haven't been following the thread closely. Have we discussed whether it's a coincidence that the recent white supremacist terrorist attack took place at the height of the poisonous anti-immigrant atmosphere created by the right wing Leave campaign?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How will they gain strength? Through what mechanism?



Er because they won and look like winners. Because our flimsy progressive ideas were routed? Never mind you think yours were not.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> Er because they won and look like winners. Because our flimsy progressive ideas were routed? Never mind you think yours were not.



Looking like "winners" isn't a policy mechanism though, is it?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

Any thoughts on this? Anyone?

There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Brainaddict said:


> So I haven't been following the thread closely. Have we discussed whether it's a coincidence that the recent white supremacist terrorist attack took place at the height of the poisonous anti-immigrant atmosphere created by the right wing Leave campaign?


No. Nothing happens unless you are there. Making fucking banal points that reveal that you think everyone else is too thick to have made.


----------



## magneze (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Any thoughts on this? Anyone?
> 
> There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it


It's the third time it's been posted.


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Any thoughts on this? Anyone?
> 
> There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it



It's popped up on various threads previously, and while it's strictly true that it's not legally binding (most British referendums have been advisory, because Parliament is sovereign, not the people), the political consequences of not following through with some form of Brexit would be even worse for the Tories than the position they now find themselves in because of having the referendum.

The author may be a legal expert, but I don't think he has much of a grasp of political realities...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

magneze said:


> It's the third time it's been posted.



What's your view then pogo?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

andysays said:


> The author may be a legal expert, but I don't think he has much of a grasp of political realities...



Really?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

The author of the useless BI piece is not the legal expert. He is someone whose used a piece by a legal expert to write something that is worthless.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The author of the useless BI piece is not the legal expert. He is someone whose used a piece by a legal expert to write something that is worthless.



So there's absolutely no truth in that piece then?


----------



## magneze (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> What's your view then pogo?


It's true but so what? Is that going to happen? Doubt it.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So there's absolutely no truth in that piece then?



Somebody made the point earlier that all they need to do is extend the period where we actually leave by going into protracted negotiations.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

magneze said:


> It's true but so what? Is that going to happen? Doubt it.



I've absolutely no idea that's why i'm asking. Is it true or not?


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> The author of the useless BI piece is not the legal expert. He is someone whose used a piece by a legal expert to write something that is worthless.



Yeah, you're right. The author of the original piece says this



> What happens next in the event of a vote to leave is therefore a matter of politics not law. It will come down to what is politically expedient and practicable.



and the BI author simply ignores that because it gets in the way of an exciting story


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So there's absolutely no truth in that piece then?


The piece that it is based on? Yeah. 100% correct. But irrelevant. Like laws about taking sheep over london bridge.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jun 19, 2016)

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## gosub (Jun 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Somebody made the point earlier that all they need to do is extend the period where we actually leave by going into protracted negotiations.


On a leave vote pound and euro do drop against the dollar... Oil in dollars limits the amount of possible procrastination.


----------



## Azrael (Jun 19, 2016)

andysays said:


> It's popped up on various threads previously, and while it's strictly true that it's not legally binding (most British referendums have been advisory, because Parliament is sovereign, not the people), the political consequences of not following through with some form of Brexit would be even worse for the Tories than the position they now find themselves in because of having the referendum.
> 
> The author may be a legal expert, but I don't think he has much of a grasp of political realities...


And, of course, the Westminster parliament's only "sovereign" for as long as the courts (or the people) accept it is: flouting the popular will's an excellent way to expose their "sovereignty" for the chimera it is. Even Dicey accepted that popular sovereignty was, ultimately, supreme.

Finally doing away with legal positivism would be at least one positive outcome from the whole fiasco.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2016)

Yeah fuck you dicey and legal positivism. Listen to this lad, he knows the score.


----------



## belboid (Jun 19, 2016)

Interesting pice on when we can expect the results, and how to try to interpret the early ones How the EU referendum result will emerge in the hours after polls close


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 19, 2016)

Warsi jumps ship. Somehow, she never seemed that committed in the first place.
Baroness Sayeeda Warsi defects from Leave to Remain


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Looking like "winners" isn't a policy mechanism though, is it?



They will be driving the bus when policy is formed.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> They will be driving the bus when policy is formed.



What the fuck does any of this even mean?


----------



## Mr Moose (Jun 19, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> What the fuck does any of this even mean?



It's not really difficult to understand. A leave vote is a massive win for the right. No one would even notice any of left were onboard.  

Those populist intolerant voices that propel leave are going to exercise their power. They won't be able to change neo-liberalism so what will satiate them? People on benefits, the Human Rights act, further anti Union legislation?.. Politics will shift further to the right.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 19, 2016)

Mr Moose said:


> It's not really difficult to understand. A leave vote is a massive win for the right. No one would even notice any of left were onboard.
> 
> Those populist intolerant voices that propel leave are going to exercise their power. They won't be able to change neo-liberalism so what will satiate them? People on benefits, the Human Rights act, further anti Union legislation?.. Politics will shift further to the right.



Ok lets get specific then. Who precisely is going to do what, and how are they going to get the votes to push it through parliament?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 20, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> You don't think that a new Tory leadership this soon after a general election might create a crisis of legitimacy for the government? ...



They have had a crisis of legitimacy from day one imo, but I take your point. Hopefully the best thing to come out of this car crash will be further implosion of the tories, please.


----------



## dilberto (Jun 20, 2016)

The position of the some EU remain supporters appears to be that remaining in the EU is the best defence the British people have against their own national democracy perhaps reflecting the dominant secular middle class's increasing disdain for their own national culture, people and popular opinion and subsequently their increasing distrust of national democracy.

It seems that for many EU supporters particularly those on the secular left the attraction of the EU is that it offers the prospect of making Britain a state ruled by unaccountable international institutions and courts dominated by people with views similar to their own and which have the power to determine the rights and obligations of British citizens based on international treaties and to oversee, overrule and circumvent national democracies in ways favoured by the left but which they would be unable to do so by conventional democratic means, a secular mirror image of Iran's religiously managed democracy perhaps?  

But to trust an undemocratic and unaccountable authority like the EU over a national democracy is to trust to dictatorship, just because an unaccountable authority favours our preferences and interests at a given time does not guarantee that it will always do so and by placing our trust in such a body over national democracy we renounce the liberty to influence how that authority of governance is exercised in the future and any protection which democratic popular consent provides should that authority become oppressive.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

dilberto said:


> The position of the some EU remain supporters appears to be that remaining in the EU is the best defence the British people have against their own national democracy perhaps reflecting the dominant secular middle class's increasing disdain for their own national culture, people and popular opinion and subsequently their increasing distrust of national democracy.
> 
> It seems that for many EU supporters particularly those on the secular left the attraction of the EU is that it offers the prospect of making Britain a state ruled by unaccountable international institutions and courts dominated by people with views similar to their own and which have the power to determine the rights and obligations of British citizens based on international treaties and to oversee, overrule and circumvent national democracies in ways favoured by the left but which they would be unable to do so by conventional democratic means, a secular mirror image of Iran's religiously managed democracy perhaps?


Sorry but this is almost as bad as some of the stuff Mr Moose, Coolfonz etc have come out with. If the Remain voters you're claiming exist they certainly aren't the majority of those on U75.

My bother is going to vote Remain because (i) he thinks that the EU will help protect workers rights and act as a break to the Tories and (ii) he believes that voting remain will boost anti-immigration feelings. Now I think he's wrong on both accounts but the idea that but he want's Britain to be ruled by 'unaccountable international institutions' is frankly bullshit.

Also are there many EU _supporters_? I don't think so. Repeating myself again, it's daft, actually worse than that it's counterproductive, to confuse a vote for Remain with a fundamental support for the EU.

EDIT: That said I agree that liberals have always been sacred of giving people too much democracy.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 20, 2016)

We have a national democracy?  News to me.

(...unelected head of state, unelected house of lords, unelected Prime Minister, unrepresentative first-past-the-post electoral system, police hired by corporations...)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> We have a national democracy?  News to me.
> 
> (...unelected head of state, unelected house of lords, unelected Prime Minister, unrepresentative first-past-the-post electoral system, police hired by corporations...)


No, it's a NOTIONAL democracy. dilberto just a letter out


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 20, 2016)

Has Corbyn said anything clear about his policy in the event of a leave vote?

I'm just trying to work out what happens if leave wins, and Boris scrags pigfucker Dave.

If there were to be a general election _before_ article 50 was triggered, which seems at least possible, he'd be in an interesting position.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> We have a national democracy?  News to me.
> 
> (...unelected head of state, unelected house of lords, unelected Prime Minister, unrepresentative first-past-the-post electoral system, police hired by corporations...)


But even if each one of those were elected with the most scrupulous application of PR...it would not alter the reality of financialised capital's sovereignty over debt states.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Has Corbyn said anything clear about his policy in the event of a leave vote?
> 
> I'm just trying to work out what happens if leave wins, and Boris scrags pigfucker Dave.
> 
> If there were to be a general election _before_ article 50 was triggered, which seems at least possible, he'd be in an interesting position.


Have been wondering this myself. In the Scottish referendum the SNP dominated parliamentary politics and wanted to leave.... Labour would be left without the legitimacy to implement the long process of leaving. One thing I'm certain is that in the short to medium term Boris and Farage would get a massive power and legitimacy boost.... They will be the figure heads and engineers of the exit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Have been wondering this myself. In the Scottish referendum the SNP dominated parliamentary politics and wanted to leave.... Labour would be left without the legitimacy to implement the long process of leaving. One thing I'm certain is that in the short to medium term Boris and Farage would get a massive power and legitimacy boost.... They will be the figure heads and engineers of the exit.


Figure heads cannot, by definition, be active players. Obviously, really.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Has Corbyn said anything clear about his policy in the event of a leave vote?
> 
> I'm just trying to work out what happens if leave wins, and Boris scrags pigfucker Dave.
> 
> If there were to be a general election _before_ article 50 was triggered, which seems at least possible, he'd be in an interesting position.


Has Corbyn not actually stated that the LP would accept the verdict of the electorate, then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Have been wondering this myself. In the Scottish referendum the SNP dominated parliamentary politics and wanted to leave.... Labour would be left without the legitimacy to implement the long process of leaving. One thing I'm certain is that in the short to medium term Boris and Farage would get a massive power and legitimacy boost.... They will be the figure heads and engineers of the exit.


So the Tories with a pisspoor majority do have legitimacy to embark on this journey but a labour govt wouldn't. Why?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Has Corbyn not actually stated that the LP would accept the verdict of the electorate, then?



Well I'd expect him to, but I haven't found the quote.

Trying to work out the possibilities in the event of a leave vote.

1. No election until 2020 but no article 50 either.

2. No election until 2020 but Boris and his chums trigger Article 50 (assuming they can get it through parliament) and immediately start implementing neoliberal fantasy island in place of all the torn up legislation.

3. Election called and fought on the basis of _how_ Article 50 is to be implemented. (Shape of new laws)

4. Election called and fought on the basis of _whether_ Article 50 is to be implemented.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well I'd expect him to, but I haven't found the quote.
> 
> Trying to work out the possibilities in the event of a leave vote.
> 
> ...


3 & 4 would presuppose that enough tory MPs could be persuaded to bring down their own party with the attendant risk that they may not regain power.


----------



## andysays (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well I'd expect him to, but I haven't found the quote.
> 
> Trying to work out the possibilities in the event of a leave vote.
> 
> ...



And 2 requires that Johnson (or Gove etc) actually becomes leader of the Conservative party and then Prime Minister.

This may happen, but at the very least it will take time to go through the formal processes, they can't just walk into the HoC on Friday or Monday and say "I'm the Daddy now"...


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 20, 2016)




----------



## chilango (Jun 20, 2016)

Would the opposition back a no-confidence vote?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well I'd expect him to, but I haven't found the quote.
> 
> Trying to work out the possibilities in the event of a leave vote.
> 
> ...


If Leave does win it'll be first scenario that happens at least in the short/medium term. The government will attempt to either renegotiate or failing that tie the UK as close as it can to the EU. Followed by another "Are you really sure?" referendum a year or two down the track.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 20, 2016)

If they don't implement leave on the terms the public are demanding (i.e. 'secure the borders') then come the next election it'll be UKIP fighting for a place in government to put such measures in place.  I suspect there will be a rush to have the agreements sewn up before the next election to the satisfaction of business so as to reduce the risk of this happening.

My worry with the implementation of a 'points system' for all migrants is that it further reinforces the narrative that public services are for those that 'pay their way' and that those who don't are undeserving.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry but this is almost as bad as some of the stuff Mr Moose, Coolfonz etc have come out with. If the Remain voters you're claiming exist they certainly aren't the majority of those on U75.
> 
> My bother is going to vote Remain because (i) he thinks that the EU will help protect workers rights and act as a break to the Tories and (ii) he believes that voting remain will boost anti-immigration feelings. Now I think he's wrong on both accounts but the idea that but he want's Britain to be ruled by 'unaccountable international institutions' is frankly bullshit.
> 
> ...


Just ti remind you, diblerto is a confused third-position style racist. Sorry separtist. Sorry, defender of diversity.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 20, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Just ti remind you, diblerto is a confused third-position style racist. Sorry separtist. Sorry, defender of diversity.


Ah, makes sense. This one had dropped of my radar.


----------



## gosub (Jun 20, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Well I'd expect him to, but I haven't found the quote.
> 
> Trying to work out the possibilities in the event of a leave vote.
> 
> ...



Unless they've put something on the statue I haven't seen (possible).  Invoking Article 50 is within the remit of the PM without requiring parliamentary assent.  Unlike Mr Osbournes 'emergency' budget.  There would be pressure from the markets, though I would say that that pressure would be looking for orderly action both from UK and the rest of the EU. I think Mr Cameron would undoubtedly face a leadership challenge were he to invoke Article 50 (if one were not triggered by the result alone).
They may well be a further plebiscite on whether what has been lashed out between the EU and and the UK during that two year period. (though I can see why they wouldn't).


----------



## teqniq (Jun 20, 2016)

Baroness Warsi has launched a fierce attack on Michael Gove after her Leave defection

Baroness Warsi subjected to Islamophobic abuse by Brexit supporters after she defects to Remain


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> So the Tories with a pisspoor majority do have legitimacy to embark on this journey but a labour govt wouldn't. Why?


Because the Tories would reconfigure into a pro-Exit squad, whereas Labour under Corbyn wouldn't be able to present themselves in a way that matches agreement with the exit referendum result - they would appear weak and their commitment to it would be questioned at every turn. Same reason Cameron would have to resign. Unless Corbyn secretly wants Exit and is able to do a clever and convincing u-turn on it.

But government aside, Farage and Johnson will be massively empowered and will be able to dictate what happens, even without parliamentary power. The don't just represent the Leave campaign in abstract, they would be vocal and directorial in its real world implementation. UKIP have a huge amount of momentum behind them...its taken years but they're currently the third biggest party on just shy of 20%. I would expect a Leave vote to add to that momentum and to Farage's status.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 20, 2016)

Nigel Farage accuses David Cameron of exploiting Jo Cox's death


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

It's over...according to the punters....


----------



## bi0boy (Jun 20, 2016)

brogdale said:


> It's over...according to the punters....




..and the markets it seems, probably connected.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 20, 2016)

bi0boy said:


> ..and the markets it seems, probably connected.
> 
> View attachment 88649


Maybe, but I've read somewhere that quite alot of private polling is being undertaken on behalf of city corps, hedgies & the like. Could be that they're convincing themselves with such output.


----------



## Santino (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> But government aside, Farage and Johnson will be massively empowered and will be able to dictate what happens


How? In practical terms.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2016)

Santino said:


> How? In practical terms.


The potential in parliamentary terms is clear: what seems to me to be by far the most likely option would be that Cameron would be forced to stand down immediately if Exit wins, and faced with with the task of delivering the Exit Johnson would be favourite to take the job (bookies agree), and there's already been talk of Farage taking a future cabinet position. Certainly a UKIP/Tory coalition could be a possibility should the need arise. 

But lets say that doesnt happen. There are two further options - Torys continuing to hold power with Cameron or more likely another non-Johnson successor, or a Labour government under Corbyn. In both those scenarios Johnson and Farage are both now positioned as the true voice of Exit, and their political careers are firmly pinned to it. Even if the referendum goes to Exit there will still be a long fight to be had to push it through in a way that satisfies Johnson and Farage and their supporters, and they will have the political capital and 'moral authority' to set the agenda and berate anyone who strays from the path. It is their vision of Exit that is being voted for, not a leftist one. They will be justified to say that the British voting public are being ignored, and that their will is not being exercised, and undermine the authority of whoever else might be in power, Tory or Labour. Cue even more pandering to the UKIP agenda.

A vote for Exit would be the very beginning of years of power politics over what form the New UK might take (and there are many potential versions), and there's no way Johnson and Farage are going to go into retirement post-vote, job done - the opposite - this will be the beginning of their real chance at power, by hook or crook ( but most likely by a quick takeover from Cameron).

I was for Scottish independence, partly because I felt the SNP agenda was a safe way in which to implement it. If it had been a Scottish UKIP calling for Scottish Independence, producing racist posters etc and ready to take power, I wouldnt have supported it. Neither Scottish Exit or UK Exit is a neutral political act; the manner and power behind the process is not just mood music - I think it will profoundly shape the politics of the short and mid term. 

To my mind voting for Exit isnt just voting for something that happens to have Farage and Johnson representing it, to which its possible to hold your nose because once it passes there's a post-EU carte blanche to play for - I believe in realpolitik terms it will be a direct vote for them and their agenda. It will empower them and put them centre stage for years to come.


----------



## Santino (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> The potential in parliamentary terms is clear: what seems to me to be by far the most likely option would be that Cameron would be forced to stand down immediately if Exit wins, and faced with with the task of delivering the Exit Johnson would be favourite to take the job (bookies agree)


How often has the early favourite won a Tory leadership election in the past few decades? 





> and there's already been talk of Farage taking a future cabinet position. Certainly a UKIP/Tory coalition could be a possibility should the need arise.


Electoral suicide for UKIP.


> Johnson and Farage... will have the political capital and 'moral authority' to set the agenda and berate anyone who strays from the path.


Again, how would this work in practical terms? How are they going to set the agenda - the actual agenda of legislation? Sharply-worded editorials? Demonstrations? How would they overcome a (hypothetical) Labour majority?

We can all construct stories in which vaguely-understood forces like 'momentum'  or 'empowerment' cause things to happen, but I've not seen a single credible analysis about how any of this would actually happen.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2016)

Cant answer your points now Santino, have to work, but another thing - if Remain win by a narrow margin i bet there'll be a bounce of frustrated/angry voters to UKIP. Even more power to farage


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> The potential in parliamentary terms is clear: what seems to me to be by far the most likely option would be that Cameron would be forced to stand down immediately if Exit wins, and faced with with the task of delivering the Exit Johnson would be favourite to take the job (bookies agree), and there's already been talk of Farage taking a future cabinet position. Certainly a UKIP/Tory coalition could be a possibility should the need arise.
> 
> But lets say that doesnt happen. There are two further options - Torys continuing to hold power with Cameron or more likely another non-Johnson successor, or a Labour government under Corbyn. In both those scenarios Johnson and Farage are both now positioned as the true voice of Exit, and their political careers are firmly pinned to it. Even if the referendum goes to Exit there will still be a long fight to be had to push it through in a way that satisfies Johnson and Farage and their supporters, and they will have the political capital and 'moral authority' to set the agenda and berate anyone who strays from the path. It is their vision of Exit that is being voted for, not a leftist one. They will be justified to say that the British voting public are being ignored, and that their will is not being exercised, and undermine the authority of whoever else might be in power, Tory or Labour. Cue even more pandering to the UKIP agenda.
> 
> ...



I don't agree with you about Scottish Independence, because I didn't trust the SNP agenda, but broadly that's about it for me too. The context of the referendum is crucial. Who wins power and dictates terms immediately post-Brexit is a crucial question.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> Cant answer your points now Santino, have to work, but another thing - if Remain win by a narrow margin i bet there'll be a bounce of frustrated/angry voters to UKIP. Even more power to farage


A dream day would be farage's light plane descending at great velocity on boris on his bike.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 20, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> A dream day would be farage's light plane descending at great velocity on boris on his bike.


Poetry.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Poetry.


A dream day would be 
Farage's light plane 
descending 
at
great
velocity
on boris on his bike.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> The potential in parliamentary terms is clear: what seems to me to be by far the most likely option would be that Cameron would be forced to stand down immediately if Exit wins, and faced with with the task of delivering the Exit Johnson would be favourite to take the job (bookies agree), and there's already been talk of Farage taking a future cabinet position. Certainly a UKIP/Tory coalition could be a possibility should the need arise.



Why would Farage take a cabinet position, he's just spent the last five years courting the disaffected Labour vote who would never vote Boris in a million years?  

The assumption that Brexit would lead to an unstoppable ultra-right, with Farage, Boris, Gove and non-entity's like Patel dazzling the electorate and seizing the Tory Party ignores that this would recreate the kind of Tory Party that proved unelectable for nearly a decade and a half.  In reality leadership of the Tory Party post-Brexit is likely to be a poisoned chalice, the EU is in a position to bounce them all over on immigration alone  - 2 million UK citizens in Europe is a fucking big bargaining chip - whilst moderate Tories, and all the rest Labour/Lib/Green/SNP will blame everything from a rise in unemployment to a spell of bad weather on the bungling negotiators.  

If Farage has got any sense he'll bide his time until they fuck up, although even that might not save him - there seems to be an assumption that Boris/Farage are playing the electorate, I think the electorate are playing them.  Just because a lot of peope want to say fuck you to the establishment, and a lot of people are worried about immigration, doesn't mean that everyone will suddenly vote to get rid of holiday pay or maternity leave.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 20, 2016)

Farage will fuck himself up with the fags and booze before long.

I'm less worried about the far right here (stuff beyond Farage) because over the last few decades they've been fairly feeble, more concerned about the wind this will put in the sails of Europe's far right.  Bigger issue I reckon.


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

farage has said he'd welcome a Gove led party, as would a large number of UKIP members.  he'd fucking jump at the chance of a cabinet seat.  Of course he'd need to actually be elected to something first.

After the referendum, the 'kippers (should) know they've only really got one election left in them, before they drift away on a sea of pointlessness. If he could find a way, Farage would be right in there.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> farage has said he'd welcome a Gove led party, as would a large number of UKIP members.  he'd fucking jump at the chance of a cabinet seat.  Of course he'd need to actually be elected to something first.
> 
> After the referendum, the 'kippers (should) know they've only really got one election left in them, before they drift away on a sea of pointlessness. If he could find a way, Farage would be right in there.


i dunno. if remain wins i think it will fuel them.


----------



## smokedout (Jun 20, 2016)

When has Farage said he'd welcome a Gove led Tory Party, I only recall him giving vague support to Boris recently?  And why would Boris/Gove want or need him for that matter, he's toxic with the centre ground they need and half the Tory Party despises him.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> A dream day would be
> Farage's light plane
> descending
> at
> ...


Ode to a Mangled Aircraft.


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

smokedout said:


> When has Farage said he'd welcome a Gove led Tory Party, I only recall him giving vague support to Boris recently?  And why would Boris/Gove want or need him for that matter, he's toxic with the centre ground they need and half the Tory Party despises him.


 same could be said for Johnson & gove, tho, couldnt it?
UKIP: Grown-ups 'like Gove' needed for Tory election pact - BBC News


----------



## smokedout (Jun 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> same could be said for Johnson & gove, tho, couldnt it?
> UKIP: Grown-ups 'like Gove' needed for Tory election pact - BBC News



An electoral pact to get a referendum which he got without one in the end, hardly saying he'd switch sides.  And yes, the same could be said for Johnson and Gove, that's sort of my point, Brexit will only make them heroes to people who think they are heroes already.  Most people think they are cunts.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 20, 2016)

belboid said:


> same could be said for Johnson & gove, tho, couldnt it?
> UKIP: Grown-ups 'like Gove' needed for Tory election pact - BBC News


2012


----------



## belboid (Jun 20, 2016)

An electoral pact to get what he wanted. You don't think he'd do it again? It's almost as if you think he has some principles


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Jun 20, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Farage will fuck himself up with the fags and booze before long.


Or the failure to maintain his car properly.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 20, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Farage will fuck himself up with the fags and booze before long.


Nigel "I think the doctors have got it wrong on smoking"(*) Farage? Surely not.

*


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> I'm less worried about the far right here (stuff beyond Farage) because over the last few decades they've been fairly feeble, more concerned about the wind this will put in the sails of Europe's far right.  Bigger issue I reckon.


The two things (UK and European far right) arent separate enough for me .. .a growing far right in other corners of europe can influence the far right in the UK - and for me particularly so when Farage's thin end of the wedge has been knocking at walls for as long as it has... it worries me a lot.

im also genuinely scared about phase two of the deferred economic collapse, and that coupled with a growing far-right in europe makes me feel very cautious.

Staying in the EU doesnt negate that of course, but it feels a dangerous time to do anything that gives more traction to racist and separatist narratives, both in the UK and beyond


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2016)

ska invita said:


> The two things (UK and European far right) arent separate enough for me .. .a growing far right in other corners of europe can influence the far right in the UK - and for me particularly so when Farage's thin end of the wedge has been knocking at walls for as long as it has... it worries me a lot.
> 
> im also genuinely scared about phase two of the deferred economic collapse, and that coupled with a growing far-right in europe makes me feel very cautious.
> 
> Staying in the EU doesnt negate that of course, but it feels a dangerous time to do anything that gives more traction to racist and separatist narratives, both in the UK and beyond


What's the eu's role in this?


----------



## magneze (Jun 20, 2016)

How does Farage have any power if leave win? He's not an MP.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 20, 2016)

magneze said:


> How does Farage have any power if leave win? He's not an MP.



He's hollowed out Gove (an easy job) and has installed electronics giving rudimentary control of his movements and voice, which he operates from his secret bunker in the base of Nelson's Column.


----------



## teqniq (Jun 20, 2016)

This is getting beyond bizarre now.

The Vote Leave campaign video was 'doctored' to include fake screams


----------



## ska invita (Jun 20, 2016)

magneze said:


> How does Farage have any power if leave win? He's not an MP.


He seems to have a lot of power to me right now. He's possibly the single most politically influential person in the country, in terms of setting an agenda.
As I said upthread, if the vote goes to Leave that just triggers the beginning of a long power struggle over what happens next. I can see no chance that UKIP are going to shut up shop and leave it in the hands of others to deal with. Farage will have power as the country will have just voted in his favour in a referendum that was effectively his doing. UKIP are on an electoral roll at the moment too - polling 18% and recently winning seat in Wales.

No really knows what will happen next - so many variables, and as a gambling man I dont like the look of the majority of the outcomes.

Heres one possibility from the Indy:
"Although Farage dismisses post-referendum speculation as “irrelevant” and “Westminster tittle-tattle", Ukip insiders believe he plans to rebrand and relaunch the party, modelling it on Italy’s populist Five Star Movement led by Beppe Grillo, a comedian."

The idea that voting Leave kills UKIP is really wishfull thinking IMO. In fact the opposite is more likely I think, that they will get even more momentum and credibility.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

Probably nothing here that we didn't already know...but FWIW here is YG's latest (& last) map of EUref support. (Blue = Leave, Red = Remain).


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

If Scotland gets independence the next referendum would be more decisive.


----------



## YouSir (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> If Scotland gets independence the next referendum would be more decisive.



Not sure why people think there'll be another IndyRef. Hasn't the government shown enough disgust at people voting on issues to make it clear they won't make a habit of it?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

say that again when Boris is PM


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

ska invita said:


> The idea that voting Leave kills UKIP is really wishfull thinking IMO. In fact the opposite is more likely I think, that they will get even more momentum and credibility.


i never saw it as ukip being led to the guillotine on 24 june, more as a lingering death lasting years if not months.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> say that again when Boris is PM


i look forward to attending boris's pm - post mortem


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Probably nothing here that we didn't already know...but FWIW here is YG's latest (& last) map of EUref support. (Blue = Leave, Red = Remain).


I must be being dense but I don't understand the key?


----------



## teqniq (Jun 21, 2016)

A third of Leave voters believe MI5 and the Remain camp 

Probable clickbait warning and I'm having trouble with some of the wording



> Nearly a third of Leave voters believe Britain’s intelligence agency MI5 is in cahoots with the Government to stop Britain leaving the European Union, according to a new poll..




What?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I must be being dense but I don't understand the key?



I'd assumed probability 0 to 1 of someone from the region voting leave.


----------



## NoXion (Jun 21, 2016)

Something just occurred to me; apart from the polling card I haven't received any referendum-related bumf in the post at all. I wonder why that is?


----------



## J Ed (Jun 21, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Something just occurred to me; apart from the polling card I haven't received any referendum-related bumf in the post at all. I wonder why that is?



I received a bit about a month ago then nothing since then. Not complaining.


----------



## gosub (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I must be being dense but I don't understand the key?



mean comparative attitudes to EU split into 1/12s and coloured in


----------



## NoXion (Jun 21, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I received a bit about a month ago then nothing since then. Not complaining.



Not complaining so much as wondering. Given the fuss made I would have expected a deluge of faff but the silence is surprising.


----------



## Wilf (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> say that again when Boris is PM


If/when he is PM he'll go back to not really giving a shit whether we are in the EU or not.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

I've been spammed hard from all quarters. one 'don't vote with farage' leaflet managed to survive dog


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Probably nothing here that we didn't already know...but FWIW here is YG's latest (& last) map of EUref support. (Blue = Leave, Red = Remain).


I'm seeing forecasts for thundery, heavy rain events for Eastern England on Thursday. 
It'll be OK for those posh, Waitrose remainarians in their 4WDs...but the dispossessed, left-behind underclass won't feel too chuffed about leaving 'spoons to get soaked getting down the village hall.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I've been spammed hard from all quarters. one 'don't vote with farage' leaflet managed to survive dog


I got the government leaflet at the very start but nothing since.

Bit confused, there is a hauliers yard not too far from here that has 8 vote leave posters up, I would have thought hauliers would have been pro remain?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I got the government leaflet at the very start but nothing since.
> 
> Bit confused, there is a hauliers yard not too far from here that has 8 vote leave posters up, I would have thought hauliers would have been pro remain?


why not ask them?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> why not ask them?


I was driving past .. in a hurry .. I had seen a leave poster there two weeks ago

Perhaps they are domestic hauliers, I can't see international ones wanting more border hassle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I was driving past .. in a hurry .. I had seen a leave poster there two weeks ago
> 
> Perhaps they are domestic hauliers, I can't see international ones wanting more border hassle.


why not stop and chat and make some new friends?


----------



## weltweit (Jun 21, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> why not stop and chat and make some new friends?


They would probably want to lynch me on one of their recovery trucks


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> They would probably want to lynch me on one of their recovery trucks


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 21, 2016)

weltweit said:


> They would probably want to lynch me on one of their recovery trucks



..ankles fixed to one van, arms to the other and off they go...



weltweit said:


> I would have thought hauliers would have been pro remain?



...thought alot of them were getting slaughtered by continental hauliers ( fuel tax etc ) ...also maybe an expression of general off-pissment over the migrant related disruptions at the French Ports ?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 21, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Not complaining so much as wondering. Given the fuss made I would have expected a deluge of faff but the silence is surprising.


For whatever reason they might have you down as a sure voter for one camp or the other. Surely they will target the people they believe are don't knows


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> For whatever reason they might have you down as a sure voter for one camp or the other. Surely they will target the people they believe are don't knows



Dunno. I'm getting a tonne of crap. If it was just Remain stuff I'd assume the local Greens (and possibly Labour) who regularly trouble my letterbox were behind it, but as Leave are piling shit thru' too...


----------



## NoXion (Jun 21, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> For whatever reason they might have you down as a sure voter for one camp or the other. Surely they will target the people they believe are don't knows



Votes in this country are by secret ballot right? How would they know my likely voting intentions?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 21, 2016)

chilango said:


> Dunno. I'm getting a tonne of crap. If it was just Remain stuff I'd assume the local Greens (and possibly Labour) who regularly trouble my letterbox were behind it, but as Leave are piling shit thru' too...


But didn't you say that you live on a rather split middle-class/working class street? Could be a swing area?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 21, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Votes in this country are by secret ballot right? How would they know my likely voting intentions?


Same way as for general elections, they look at all the polling and from that work out if it's worth targeting the area you live in or not. If you live in a ward that they think is likely to be solidly one way they probably aren't going to bother much with you.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

redsquirrel said:


> But didn't you say that you live on a rather split middle-class/working class street? Could be a swing area?



Could be. Swing ward in a swing seat. Labour need to win here to win the seat and Reading East is one of those indicator seats in Westminster elections I believe.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

Have to say, round here in the Croydon 'burbs I've see very few posters up in people's windows, either R or L.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Votes in this country are by secret ballot right? How would they know my likely voting intentions?


the demographic split of voting intention is quite sharp in this one.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Votes in this country are by secret ballot right? How would they know my likely voting intentions?



By canvassing? 

In Party elections the Greens and Labour both knock our street with their lists and note down their voters for further canvassing etc.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

Mainly 'Leave' posters on land of people who normally put up UKIP posters here.


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

killer b said:


> the demographic split of voting intention is quite sharp in this one.



...though oversimplified.


----------



## inva (Jun 21, 2016)

i've had loads of leave stuff, nothing much of remain


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Mainly 'Leave' posters on land of people who normally put up UKIP posters here.


Here?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

My bit of Cornwall.


----------



## killer b (Jun 21, 2016)

chilango said:


> ...though oversimplified.


I'm sure. they haven't had the resources or time for a full canvas though, so it's what they'll be relying on to decide where to focus their energies.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> My bit of Cornwall.


Farmers fed up with having to lug all those subsidies to the bank?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 21, 2016)

hehe yes they do seem to appear on farm land


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

killer b said:


> I'm sure. they haven't had the resources or time for a full canvas though, so it's what they'll be relying on to decide where to focus their energies.



Yeah. Fair point. I'm just cautious about the tendency appearing to put the split down to just class, or age, or Scottishness!


----------



## chilango (Jun 21, 2016)

...I had a personally addressed Remain leaflet today.

...but as I've said before I've also got IPSOS and YouGov hanging on my every word. I don't know what dent I'm making n their margin of error but it'd be fun to find out.


----------



## newharper (Jun 21, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Mainly 'Leave' posters on land of people who normally put up UKIP posters here.



Same here.

Herefordshire.


----------



## discokermit (Jun 21, 2016)

brogdale said:


> Farmers fed up with having to lug all those subsidies to the bank?


old article but you can see where those subsidies go. apols if it's been posted a million times, Revealed: how we pay our richest landowners millions in subsidies


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 21, 2016)

NoXion said:


> Something just occurred to me; apart from the polling card I haven't received any referendum-related bumf in the post at all. I wonder why that is?



...if either side had booked whoever it is delivering the endless torrent of takeaway menus round our way they'd probably have the whole thing sewn up by now...


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...if either side had booked whoever it is delivering the endless torrent of takeaway menus round our way they'd probably have the whole thing sewn up by now...


drives me insane. I've lived here ten years, I know which are the decent takeaways and if I want to try a new one I'll ask another long term resident for reccs on new places.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 21, 2016)

Subtle.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2016)

ze nazis


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 21, 2016)

_Mrs Leadsom got her tongue in a tangle. "We've got child-free tax care!" she cried. No doubt an essential service for childless millionaires._

Michael Deacon's Telegraph sketch


----------



## ska invita (Jun 22, 2016)

yum

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClgVKyVUgAAXqM-.jpg






The circle of utter cunts is complete


----------



## Wilf (Jun 22, 2016)

Almighty fuck up by gove, claiming John Barnes backs brexit, when he actually backs remain

Barnes Denies Gove Claim He Backs Brexit


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 22, 2016)

_Almighty_!


----------



## teqniq (Jun 22, 2016)




----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 22, 2016)

btw, this is what was being parodied


----------



## 8den (Jun 22, 2016)

Wilf said:


> Almighty fuck up by gove, claiming John Barnes backs brexit, when he actually backs remain
> 
> Barnes Denies Gove Claim He Backs Brexit



I think Gove claiming the EU drove his Father out of business and having his father reject the claim was even worse. 
Michael Gove's father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies


----------



## CNT36 (Jun 22, 2016)

A bit off topic but I was talking about TTIP earlier and that Greece and others have said they'd reject it. Is it likely or possible that acceptance of TTIP could be part of a future bailout package?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

CNT36 said:


> A bit off topic but I was talking about TTIP earlier and that Greece and others have said they'd reject it. Is it likely or possible that acceptance of TTIP could be part of a future bailout package?


yes


----------



## gosub (Jun 22, 2016)

8den said:


> I think Gove claiming the EU drove his Father out of business and having his father reject the claim was even worse.
> Michael Gove's father denies his company was destroyed by EU policies


How Remainers Stitched Up Gove's Elderly Father - Guido Fawkes


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 22, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> btw, this is what was being parodied




vote remain and no more queen / royal family?

best reason for voting remain ive heard.

are we talking guillotine?

or something wishy washy like retirement home in bognor?


----------



## Sifta (Jun 22, 2016)

Quality fuckwittery here:
If we vote to leave the European Union, it will be Jeremy Corbyn’s fault

If we vote Leave, it will be Jeremy Corbyn's fault

He appears to be serious


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 22, 2016)

Sifta said:


> Quality fuckwittery here:
> If we vote to leave the European Union, it will be Jeremy Corbyn’s fault
> 
> If we vote Leave, it will be Jeremy Corbyn's fault
> ...



Jeremy Bashing is never a joke. You may end up with Jez all over you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 22, 2016)

Puddy_Tat said:


> vote remain and no more queen / royal family?
> 
> best reason for voting remain ive heard.
> 
> ...


drowned in a barrel of gin


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 22, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> drowned in a barrel of gin


would that be a sloe death?


----------



## hot air baboon (Jun 22, 2016)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Jeremy Bashing is never a joke. You may end up with Jez all over you.



...they were trying to blame Tone for the Jo Cox tragedy....I mean I know he's a fucking war criminal but I think that's a bit strong...


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 22, 2016)

teqniq said:


>



That was shared on my face book list by a trusted comrade named Duncan! Hilarious!


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Jun 22, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...they were trying to blame Tone for the Jo Cox tragedy....I mean I know he's a fucking war criminal but I think that's a bit strong...


I think it's s jizzing joke and tony Blairs status is accepted with jizz on his face to boot


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 22, 2016)

the feline vote seems to be heading towards remain (I thought a 'want to sit in open doorway and think about whether to go out or stay in' was a more likely position)

News about #CatsAgainstBrexit on Twitter


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 22, 2016)

Brexit is a fake revolt – working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite | Paul Mason



			
				Grauniad said:
			
		

> Ask the leave camp to put targets on these things – not for the longterm, but within 12-18 months. They can’t.
> 
> What can is a left-led Labour party, combined with the progressive nationalist parties and the Greens, which will institute real change. There will be no dilemmas in the newsrooms of the Times and Telegraph if that happens: they will unite to crush it.
> 
> That’s how you know the difference between a real revolt and a fake one: by its enemies.



Oh my sides. Does Mason really believe this these days?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jun 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Brexit is a fake revolt – working-class culture is being hijacked to help the elite | Paul Mason
> 
> 
> Oh my sides. Does Mason really believe this these days?


I have just read the whole article and it makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## stethoscope (Jun 22, 2016)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I have just read the whole article and it makes perfect sense to me.



Hey, thick working class, you're being lied to - don't do it. Wait for Labour to come to your rescue proper. Christ almighty.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jun 22, 2016)

robot Labour obvs, given his current post-technological futurist bent


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 22, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Hey, thick working class, you're being lied to - don't do it. Wait for Labour to come to your rescue proper. Christ almighty.


The Labour Party and _technology_! That will save the working classes.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 23, 2016)

I'm looking forward to Farage resigning tomorrow then re appointing himself as ukip leader Monday like what he dun last time.


----------



## weltweit (Jun 23, 2016)

Ranbay said:


> I'm looking forward to Farage resigning tomorrow then re appointing himself as ukip leader Monday like what he dun last time.


I liked that - but it is too early to say - the votes will be in shortly and then we will know, Farage could be celebrating come the morning.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 24, 2016)

weltweit said:


> I liked that - but it is too early to say - the votes will be in shortly and then we will know, Farage could be celebrating come the morning.


Hmm.


----------



## Falcon (Jun 28, 2016)

Of course Theresa May, who is imposing blanket surveillance, destroying legal aid, attacking Judicial Review and the Police for being too soft, forcing Intensive Care Unit patients onto deportation planes, thinks that our (EU given) rights to life, freedom from torture and discrimination, liberty, fair trials, privacy, thought, religion and belief is getting in her way and will scrap the Human Rights Act, and who casts no reflection in a mirror, is lining up for Prime Minister.

Isn’t this just the Summer of Love?


----------



## gosub (Jun 28, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Of course Theresa May, who is imposing blanket surveillance, destroying legal aid, attacking Judicial Review and the Police for being too soft, forcing Intensive Care Unit patients onto deportation planes, thinks that our (EU given) rights to life, freedom from torture and discrimination, liberty, fair trials, privacy, thought, religion and belief is getting in her way and will scrap the Human Rights Act, and who casts no reflection in a mirror, is lining up for Prime Minister.
> 
> Isn’t this just the Summer of Love?
> 
> View attachment 88967



The Coastal surveillance aircraft she shelved (which is mothballed and some very decent kit in it) cost the taxpayer £4mil a year, how much do the video cardboard cutouts at UK airports cost?


----------



## happie chappie (Jun 28, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Of course Theresa May, who is imposing blanket surveillance, destroying legal aid, attacking Judicial Review and the Police for being too soft, forcing Intensive Care Unit patients onto deportation planes, thinks that our (EU given) rights to life, freedom from torture and discrimination, liberty, fair trials, privacy, thought, religion and belief is getting in her way and will scrap the Human Rights Act, and who casts no reflection in a mirror, is lining up for Prime Minister.
> 
> Isn’t this just the Summer of Love?
> 
> View attachment 88967



May now bookies' favourite:

Next Conservative Leader Odds | Politics Betting | Oddschecker


----------



## emanymton (Jun 29, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Of course Theresa May, who is imposing blanket surveillance, destroying legal aid, attacking Judicial Review and the Police for being too soft, forcing Intensive Care Unit patients onto deportation planes, thinks that our (EU given) rights to life, freedom from torture and discrimination, liberty, fair trials, privacy, thought, religion and belief is getting in her way and will scrap the Human Rights Act, and who casts no reflection in a mirror, is lining up for Prime Minister.
> 
> Isn’t this just the Summer of Love?
> 
> View attachment 88967


Christ she looks like a corpse.


----------



## Falcon (Jul 8, 2016)

Theresa May, a woman who made Britain one of the only countries in the world in which you can be tried in a Court you can't enter, against charges you don't know, supported by evidence you can't see, is not far off becoming its Prime Minister.

On the bright side, at least we don’t live in a country in which a feral minority can determine the course of events and the people in charge can change in a fortnight, against which such overturned legal conventions were devised to protect us.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 8, 2016)

Falcon said:


> a feral minority can determine the course of events


untermenschen


----------



## kabbes (Jul 8, 2016)

Theresa May.  And she probably will.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jul 8, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Theresa May, a woman who made Britain one of the only countries in the world in which you can be tried in a Court you can't enter, against charges you don't know, supported by evidence you can't see, is not far off becoming its Prime Minister.
> 
> On the bright side, at least we don’t live in a country in which *a feral minority can determine the course of events* and the people in charge can change in a fortnight, against which such overturned legal conventions were devised to protect us.



I suspect you're thinking of a different (and significantly larger) 'feral minority' than I am.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2016)

Falcon said:


> Theresa May, a woman who made Britain one of the only countries in the world in which you can be tried in a Court you can't enter, against charges you don't know, supported by evidence you can't see, is not far off becoming its Prime Minister.
> 
> On the bright side, at least we don’t live in a country in which a feral minority can determine the course of events and the people in charge can change in a fortnight, against which such overturned legal conventions were devised to protect us.


What are Etonians if not a feral minority?


----------



## Falcon (Jul 8, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I suspect you're thinking of a different (and significantly larger) 'feral minority' than I am.


I’m thinking of the ultra-right wing BNP and UKIP proto-fascist state supporters who’s numbers, although small, were sufficient to trigger the most violently right wing shift in UK politics in modern times. Who are having all the machinery of the fascist state manufactured for them by stealth.


----------



## Cid (Jul 8, 2016)

emanymton said:


> Christ she looks like a corpse.



She looks like someone who can summon corpses.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2016)

Cid said:


> She looks like someone who can summon corpses.



Prejudice against necromancers, eh?


----------



## Sue (Jul 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Prejudice against necromancers, eh?


Broken Britain.


----------



## Cid (Jul 9, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Prejudice against necromancers, eh?



My apologies to all practitioners of the dark arts; such luminaries (er... tenebrisiaries?) as the Witch of Endor and Edward Kelley should never have been associated with a practice as vile as Tory party membership.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2016)

Cid said:


> My apologies to all practitioners of the dark arts; such luminaries (er... tenebrisiaries?) as the Witch of Endor and Edward Kelley should never have been associated with a practice as vile as Tory party membership.



Thank you for your gracious apology.


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2016)

i feel reasonably certain that this is not unrelated to recent events


----------



## teqniq (Jul 10, 2016)

Oooo a vid

Andy Murray paid tribute to David Cameron at Wimbledon but the crowd wasn't keen


----------



## coley (Jul 10, 2016)

brogdale said:


> I'm seeing forecasts for thundery, heavy rain events for Eastern England on Thursday.
> It'll be OK for those posh, Waitrose remainarians in their 4WDs...but the dispossessed, left-behind underclass won't feel too chuffed about leaving 'spoons to get soaked getting down the village hall.


The weather forecast was accurate enough, but enough of us managed to drag our sorry arses down to the polling booths, it would seem


----------

