# Employer expecting employee to use personal phone for work?



## Herbsman. (Jul 16, 2015)

If an employee is required to take photos every day as part of their job, is it reasonable for the employer to expect the employee to use their own camera phone? 

Where does that employee then stand with regards to accidental damage i.e. if the phone was dropped on the floor and then broken?


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## Santino (Jul 16, 2015)

No, it's not. They should provide a camera or phone.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 16, 2015)

Santino said:


> No, it's not. They should provide a camera or phone.


or both


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## Teaboy (Jul 16, 2015)

I'm noticing more and more of this sort of crap.  I have to work from home a fair bit and in years gone by the company would pay for the internet and provide everything required for a home office.  Nowadays I have to pay for my own internet and recently got turned down for a printer for work stuff, they cost so little as well.

It's appalling penny pinching.


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## Looby (Jul 16, 2015)

My husband doesn't have a work phone but people call his mobile a lot as he remotely manages a team. I keep bugging him to ask for a work phone as although it doesn't cost him anything, it does mean that he gets calls and texts when he gets home or is on leave. He was getting calls at Glastonbury when his out of office was on and clearly being fucking ignored. [emoji35]


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## kabbes (Jul 16, 2015)

Teaboy said:


> I'm noticing more and more of this sort of crap.  I have to work from home a fair bit and in years gone by the company would pay for the internet and provide everything required for a home office.  Nowadays I have to pay for my own internet and recently got turned down for a printer for work stuff, they cost so little as well.
> 
> It's appalling penny pinching.


If they do pay for Internet, you'll get taxed on it n'all


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2015)

Teaboy said:


> Nowadays I have to pay for my own internet and recently got turned down for a printer for work stuff, they cost so little as well.
> 
> It's appalling penny pinching.



Quite, so cough up and buy your own printer, tight-wad 


But seriously, as kabbes says you'll be taxed for the perk of internet if work provides it. The correct thing is for you to provide it and come to an arrangement where you say 70% of internet use is for work, so they pay you back for 70% of the bill.


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## Teaboy (Jul 16, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Quite, so cough up and buy your own printer, tight-wad
> 
> 
> But seriously, as kabbes says you'll be taxed for the perk of internet if work provides it. The correct thing is for you to provide it and come to an arrangement where you say 70% of internet use is for work, so they pay you back for 70% of the bill.



Well I just don't print anything for work, I just email it to head office and get them to print it and post it to me, its petty I know but it proves a point I think.  Broadband is only a few quid but again, its part of a trend which this thread is about.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2015)

Teaboy said:


> its part of a trend



Of course. Much of this is penny-pinching, much else is led by HMRC doing folk for perks too.

First they came for the company car drivers and I said nowt...etc.


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## bi0boy (Jul 16, 2015)

Herbsman. said:


> If an employee is required to take photos every day as part of their job, is it reasonable for the employer to expect the employee to use their own camera phone?
> 
> Where does that employee then stand with regards to accidental damage i.e. if the phone was dropped on the floor and then broken?



At least you can use this to get some money if they make you use your personal shit: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-tax-tax-relief-for-expenses-of-employment-p87


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## NoXion (Jul 16, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> But seriously, as kabbes says you'll be taxed for the perk of internet if work provides it.



How is that supposed to work? I've worked at places that provided internet access and I've worked at places that didn't, and as far as I know my payslips showed the same proportion of taxes being deducted every time.


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## kabbes (Jul 16, 2015)

NoXion said:


> How is that supposed to work? I've worked at places that provided internet access and I've worked at places that didn't, and as far as I know my payslips showed the same proportion of taxes being deducted every time.


Employer providing Internet at home became a taxable benefit in kind about 2 years ago.  2013-14, IIRC


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## porp (Jul 17, 2015)

Teaboy said:


> I'm noticing more and more of this sort of crap.  I have to work from home a fair bit and in years gone by the company would pay for the internet and provide everything required for a home office.  Nowadays I have to pay for my own internet and recently got turned down for a printer for work stuff, they cost so little as well.
> 
> It's appalling penny pinching.


It is -  and employers get away with it, because they can, and because standing up for yourself is so last century. And with laptops and phones, many people see them and use them as toys, not as instruments of work, so why not use your fun toy thing at work? This is a piece of particular genius -  I'm not aware that, say, 19th-century mill owners were a able to persuade their workers to carry mini-looms around with them,or to persuade their mill hands that the fun/work should carry on after hours.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2015)

More and more companies are bringing in what's known as a 'bring your own device' policy, which is where a personal phone is used for work purposes.

There are issues around confidential information that need to be managed as well as tax issues. The policy should make it clear how company information will be used and managed, and what should happen to the data if the employee leaves the company.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 17, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> More and more companies are bringing in what's known as a 'bring your own device' policy, which is where a personal phone is used for work purposes.
> 
> There are issues around confidential information that need to be managed as well as tax issues. The policy should make it clear how company information will be used and managed, and what should happen to the data if the employee leaves the company.


BYOD is a nuisance for lots of reasons.


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## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2015)

farmerbarleymow said:


> BYOD is a nuisance for lots of reasons.


I know


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jul 17, 2015)

I actually prefer carrying my own phone, it's one less to device to carry and I'd just get issued an old school thing with buttons that would be hard to text on. I get unlimited mins on my contract, so it doesn't cost me anything.


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## Miss Caphat (Jul 18, 2015)

It's the worst. We have to use our own cell phones at work, and very predictably none of the people we interact with are aware of that fact. And then they feel like they've been intrusive when they find out. It puts employees in an awkward position


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 18, 2015)

Miss Caphat said:


> It's the worst. We have to use our own cell phones at work, and very predictably none of the people we interact with are aware of that fact. And then they feel like they've been intrusive when they find out. It puts employees in an awkward position


In the past I've diverted my office phone to my personal mobile (before I got a work one). Useful for when I was working at different sites of course, but the downside was that there was no way of cancelling the divert apart from going to the office. So I used to regularly get calls from random members of the public when I was on leave. I always helped them where I could, even if I was stood in the middle of a supermarket.


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## Herbsman. (Jul 18, 2015)

So let's say the employee's manager has completely ignored multiple emails asking for the company to buy a camera due to it being required for the job they're asking to be done. Could they potentially get in trouble for replying with 'no, use your phone'? i.e. are there any laws that state that an employer can't force an employee to use their own equipment to do their job, or that they must be compensated if they're required to do so?

Not trying to be awkward nor actually wanting to get anyone in trouble, just curious as to where they stand.

'Why haven't you taken photos of (x) to go with (y)' made me laugh. You tried taking photos on a Nokia 3210 mate?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 18, 2015)

Herbsman. said:


> So let's say the employee's manager has completely ignored multiple emails asking for the company to buy a camera due to it being required for the job they're asking to be done. Could they potentially get in trouble for replying with 'no, use your phone'? i.e. are there any laws that state that an employer can't force an employee to use their own equipment to do their job, or that they must be compensated if they're required to do so?
> 
> Not trying to be awkward nor actually wanting to get anyone in trouble, just curious as to where they stand.
> 
> 'Why haven't you taken photos of (x) to go with (y)' made me laugh. You tried taking photos on a Nokia 3210 mate?



Ask to see their BYOD policy and also ask what insurance they have to cover potential loss or damage


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## toggle (Jul 18, 2015)

Herbsman. said:


> So let's say the employee's manager has completely ignored multiple emails asking for the company to buy a camera due to it being required for the job they're asking to be done. Could they potentially get in trouble for replying with 'no, use your phone'? i.e. are there any laws that state that an employer can't force an employee to use their own equipment to do their job, or that they must be compensated if they're required to do so?
> 
> Not trying to be awkward nor actually wanting to get anyone in trouble, just curious as to where they stand.
> 
> 'Why haven't you taken photos of (x) to go with (y)' made me laugh. You tried taking photos on a Nokia 3210 mate?



that's the interesting bit to me, the expectation that the employee will have suitable equipment.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 18, 2015)

Herbsman. said:


> So let's say the employee's manager has completely ignored multiple emails asking for the company to buy a camera due to it being required for the job they're asking to be done. Could they potentially get in trouble for replying with 'no, use your phone'? i.e. are there any laws that state that an employer can't force an employee to use their own equipment to do their job, or that they must be compensated if they're required to do so?
> 
> Not trying to be awkward nor actually wanting to get anyone in trouble, just curious as to where they stand.
> 
> 'Why haven't you taken photos of (x) to go with (y)' made me laugh. You tried taking photos on a Nokia 3210 mate?


They have to provide you with the equipment to do a job, if they want you to do that job. (I'm assuming you're not freelance here.) BYOD is a side issue—that sort of policy is generally about letting an employee use their own devices _if they want to_ rather than company ones.

"My phone's bust, camera doesn't work any more."


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## Chick Webb (Jul 18, 2015)

It's a disgrace for an emloyer to ask this.

I'm loathe to tell this story because it marks me out as a mug but anyway.  Recently one of those vegetable box reps charmed me into signing up for their box and recipes.  After I agreed she asked to use my phone to phone back to head office and sign me up! At that stage I was thinking this doesn't seem like that reputable an operation.


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## discobastard (Jul 19, 2015)

Surely depends on:
a) is it going to cost you money
b) if it is, is there a mechanism for claiming it back
c) if it is going to cost you money (data, minutes) but a negligible amount, can you not just trade it off in terms of benefits in kind (i.e. they don't mind if you're 15 minutes late, they provide lots of tea, coffee and biscuits)

It can be totally fine for them to ask you to do so, you just need to work out what your boundaries, whether it is fair, whether you like your employer etc.  

If they are taking the piss, then make an issue out of it.  If they aren't, don't.  It will be different in every case.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 19, 2015)

Parcelforce are one company that doesn't give drivers company-issue mobiles. So if you order anything that uses them as a courier, and you live in a block of flats with a security fence round it, there's a very high chance you'll have to trek to the depot to collect.  Regardless of how many times you've told them to ring you when they arrive.  Some drivers will use their own mobile, but that's the exception to the rule in my experience. It's a ridiculous policy for a company delivering stuff.


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## dylanredefined (Jul 19, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> More and more companies are bringing in what's known as a 'bring your own device' policy, which is where a personal phone is used for work purposes.
> 
> There are issues around confidential information that need to be managed as well as tax issues. The policy should make it clear how company information will be used and managed, and what should happen to the data if the employee leaves the company.



It's on my device it's mine. You want the data secure you can pay for it. seems reasonable.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 19, 2015)

dylanredefined said:


> It's on my device it's mine. You want the data secure you can pay for it. seems reasonable.


Legally that's not the case though. So if you store personal data that the employer is responsible for as a data controller on your own phone or computer they could reasonably instruct you to hand it over. Refusal would invariably lead to disciplinary action. The same applies for any other data that isn't personal data if you work in a public authority that is subject to the FOIA.


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## existentialist (Jul 19, 2015)

discobastard said:


> Surely depends on:
> a) is it going to cost you money
> b) if it is, is there a mechanism for claiming it back
> c) if it is going to cost you money (data, minutes) but a negligible amount, can you not just trade it off in terms of benefits in kind (i.e. they don't mind if you're 15 minutes late, they provide lots of tea, coffee and biscuits)
> ...


I agree that a background of goodwill has its part to play - if you're working for a firm that treats you well, is prepared to be flexible where necessary, and so on, then you'd be a bit mad to chuck all that up just to make a point about being provided a phone. And, speaking as someone who, at one point, had phones provided by two different employers, plus his own, there are advantages to just having one - your own.

But my experience has tended to be that the kind of employer who'd expect you to use your own stuff to get the job done is also the same kind of employer who isn't keen to cut a little slack elsewhere.

At which point, I think my strategy would be to get hold of the tattiest old Nokia brick I could find, complete (ideally) with cheapo SIM, and appoint it my "company phone". It would be taken out and left on the table at every opportunity in company meetings, and would have a camera that produced blocky, grainy images that, ideally, would need a special cable and dodgy software on a PC to download. All with the aim of making it as inconvenient as possible for the company to continue expecting me to use my own kit.

I've tried similar tactics in the past, with some degree of success


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## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2015)

dylanredefined said:


> It's on my device it's mine. You want the data secure you can pay for it. seems reasonable.


Not if it's company owned information such a business strategy or other confidential information especially any information covered by the data protection act.


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## Lazy Fare (Jul 19, 2015)

The most worrying aspect is the blurring of the boundary between work and recreational time (and sleep time). This fucks up mental health in the most insidious and damaging way. Evil.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 19, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Not if it's company owned information such a business strategy or other confidential information especially any information covered by the data protection act.


And in the worse case scenario you could be prosecuted for refusing to hand the information over - especially under s55 of the DPA for personal data. That would be a rare step though, as most people wouldn't dig their heels in to that extent. 

It's an interesting question though whether an employer could insist on inspecting the employee's phone or computer, or whether they could only ask for written assurance that the information has been handed over and deleted from the device. I expect the right of privacy under the HRA would be factor in how far the employer could go down that route.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 19, 2015)

Lazy Fare said:


> The most worrying aspect is the blurring of the boundary between work and recreational time (and sleep time). This fucks up mental health in the most insidious and damaging way. Evil.


I completely agree - you need to maintain that line for sake of your health and sanity. There's been some interesting developments in Europe about contacting employees out of hours, with some companies switching off their blackberry mail servers at a set time each day so employees can't deal with work in the evenings, and various other restrictions like auto-deletion of e-mails where a person is on leave.


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## discobastard (Jul 19, 2015)

Lazy Fare said:


> The most worrying aspect is the blurring of the boundary between work and recreational time (and sleep time). This fucks up mental health in the most insidious and damaging way. Evil.


I agree with the worry, but this is probably a bit extreme. *You* are still in control of when you do and do not engage with emails and calls outside of working hours. 

I never look at my Blackberry over the weekend unless I've undertaken to do some work during that period. And that is usually my decision to work on one of my own projects. And it's in my contract that project work can be unpredictable and therefore work outside of standard office hours will be required.  But it's never been unmanageably bad.


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## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2015)

I'm working considerably more than my contracted hours as it is at the.moment,  no way am I working at weekends as well.


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## Me76 (Jul 19, 2015)

At the place I'm at now, we supply phones for almost all people but if someone wants to use their own phone that's fine too, it basically saves us £30 a month so we aren't going to complain. 

We have recently brought in software that will enable us to track phones, disable and delete data remotely etc, as we deal with sensitive information so need to have that ability. 

If someone is using their own phone by choice and doesn't allow us to use that software, they are then have to use a work phone. 

Tbh, we can't ever stop them accessing their work emails from their personal phone anyway, even if they have a work phone. So it's all slightly fucked anyway.


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## abe11825 (Jul 19, 2015)

The last company I worked for, decided to use Groupon as advertisement for certain services and get people in the store. As we were a small company (including the two owners, there were 10 people working there) everyone had a smart device. 

So the day came when the owners wanted the staff to download the Groupon Merchant app on their personal phone. Everyone but me downloaded it. I said there's no way I'm using my personal mobile for his benefit. If he wanted me to scan people's coupon, he'd need to provide a scanner. That answer didn't fly and he got really upset, really quickly. 

Like, how can I refuse him and use my personal device for his decision? I stuck to my answers until he told me I'd have to find one of the other employee's mobiles in order to adequately do my job. Which I thought was one of the most craziest things I've heard - interrupt one of the workers to say "can I borrow your phone? I need to scan a Groupon" and then continue on in my day. Wasteful thinking, IMO. 

I don't agree with employers making employees use their personal devices for business gain what so ever. If my employer wants to foot my bill (any part of it - however you break it down), then I'd think about it. But honestly, I wouldn't do it. I'd rather be let go.


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## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2015)

abe11825 said:


> The last company I worked for, decided to use Groupon as advertisement for certain services and get people in the store. As we were a small company (including the two owners, there were 10 people working there) everyone had a smart device.
> 
> So the day came when the owners wanted the staff to download the Groupon Merchant app on their personal phone. Everyone but me downloaded it. I said there's no way I'm using my personal mobile for his benefit. If he wanted me to scan people's coupon, he'd need to provide a scanner. That answer didn't fly and he got really upset, really quickly.
> 
> ...


In many ways,  a bring your own device policy could be a short term fix leading to long term problems.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 20, 2015)

Me76 said:


> At the place I'm at now, we supply phones for almost all people but if someone wants to use their own phone that's fine too, it basically saves us £30 a month so we aren't going to complain.
> 
> We have recently brought in software that will enable us to track phones, disable and delete data remotely etc, as we deal with sensitive information so need to have that ability.
> 
> ...


I've got a standard crappy work blackberry which they can nuke remotely if need be. I don't think it's possible to selectively erase data though, although it's a pretty dumb smartphone given how locked down it is.  

The latest blackberry operating system allows you to have work and personal data on the same device, but firewalled off from each other somehow.   There's absolutely no way I would countenance letting my personal stuff anywhere near work even if they supplied a flashy new phone. I don't trust the buggers.  

I'm surprised that people can access their work e-mails on a non-work phone at your place though. That sounds like a security breach waiting to happen...


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## cesare (Jul 20, 2015)

Remote desktop probably.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 20, 2015)

cesare said:


> Remote desktop probably.


Ah yeah, didn't think of that. It sounds dodgy from a security point of view though, but I suppose there must be ways of protecting the mail server and the wider network beyond that from whatever crap is in the employee's computer or phone.


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## discobastard (Jul 20, 2015)

abe11825 said:


> The last company I worked for, decided to use Groupon as advertisement for certain services and get people in the store. As we were a small company (including the two owners, there were 10 people working there) everyone had a smart device.
> 
> So the day came when the owners wanted the staff to download the Groupon Merchant app on their personal phone. Everyone but me downloaded it. I said there's no way I'm using my personal mobile for his benefit. If he wanted me to scan people's coupon, he'd need to provide a scanner. That answer didn't fly and he got really upset, really quickly.
> 
> ...


What you haven't said here is why specifically you didn't want to download the Groupon app.  What harm/difficulty might it have caused you (if indeed that is the reason) - or is it merely a principle thing.  I'm not being critical, just interested.


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## Bob_the_lost (Jul 20, 2015)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Ah yeah, didn't think of that. It sounds dodgy from a security point of view though, but I suppose there must be ways of protecting the mail server and the wider network beyond that from whatever crap is in the employee's computer or phone.


It's pretty common, even in companies that pay more attention than most to security. There's normally an antivirus at the exchange level and at the local domain machine level as well. A compromise on a BYOD that just has email and lync is not insignificant, especially from a social engineering point of view, but it's not letting you upload viruses onto alien motherships either (Independence day, great film).

These days you can do selective wipes of some sections of the modern OS's (Android, Windows, probably iOS). For example if i were to sign my personal mobile up to my work's email client then i'd grant our admins permission to wipe my email and calendar but i don't believe they could touch my photos or music, for example.

As for the orriginal question: Work should provide you with hardware to do your job, they might allow you to substitute your own device instead but that's an option you choose to take up or not. That's my opinion and it breaks down in some cases but generally i think it's a good rule of thumb.


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## abe11825 (Jul 22, 2015)

discobastard said:


> What you haven't said here is why specifically you didn't want to download the Groupon app.  What harm/difficulty might it have caused you (if indeed that is the reason) - or is it merely a principle thing.  I'm not being critical, just interested.




I didn't want the Groupon Merchant app (basically the business end of the regular app) on my personal mobile. He wasn't paying my bill, nor would he offer to pay the bill. I don't want to share my phone with my boss. If I don't even use my phone at work for personal use, I am not using it for business. Unless he wants to buy his employees a business phone.. just to use the scanning feature. The one time I used my phone as a streaming device there (using wifi), my data skyrocketed.. that was the first and last time I used my phone for music. So I'm pretty mindful with what I download and use.


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## sim667 (Jul 27, 2015)

We all use our personal phones for work, but then our boss is a. A friend, b. Proper sound (I've never paid for a drink when we've all gone out, he gets them in).

Most of the time we just use Skype for calling amongst ourselves but occasionally we'll have to text each other etc.


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