# Inside the fall of BlackBerry: How the smartphone inventor failed to adapt



## Kid_Eternity (Sep 29, 2013)

This is crazy, imagine if Blackberry had got this right? We'd be looking at a very different smartphone market now (a three way split?)!



> _Shortly after the release of the first iPhone, Verizon asked BlackBerry to create a touchscreen “iPhone killer.” But the result was a flop, so Verizon turned to Motorola and Google instead._



Read the full article here.


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## mauvais (Sep 30, 2013)

No. Your premise is based on the iPhone doing the damage to Blackberry. Well, it didn't, at least not directly. General smartphone growth took away RIM's consumer attraction, and then BYOD took away its corporate niche.

Why would you pay for very expensive proprietary corporate infrastructure when you can have it for basically nothing?

I'd go so far as to say it was almost never about the device.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 30, 2013)

My premise? All I did was link to the article, I've made no such assertion here, if anything this article suggests that it was actually Android that damaged Blackberry.


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## mauvais (Sep 30, 2013)

Ignoring the merits of posting up comment-free links, you said:



			
				KE said:
			
		

> This is crazy, imagine if Blackberry had got this right? We'd be looking at a very different smartphone market now (a three way split?)!


Well, we wouldn't. BBRY were in trouble as soon as its market found itself liberated from centralised corporate infrastructure. Their products were never of particular interest to most iPhone, Android or even WP adopters.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 30, 2013)

If this private buy-out goes through, I really hope they survive as a niche product. More consumer choice and all that.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 30, 2013)

mauvais said:


> Ignoring the merits of posting up comment-free links, you said:
> Well, we wouldn't. BBRY were in trouble as soon as its market found itself liberated from centralised corporate infrastructure. Their products were never of particular interest to most iPhone, Android or even WP adopters.



That's a very reductionist view that ignores the information in the link. Had they actually risen to the challenge and produced a decent touch screen phone with Verizon things could have been different. It wouldn't have had to be as good as their recent offering either, look at the G1 the early Android phones, they were clunky things yet Android has over a billion activations now and iOS well over half a billion.


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## Kid_Eternity (Sep 30, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> If this private buy-out goes through, I really hope they survive as a niche product. More consumer choice and all that.



Agreed.


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## twentythreedom (Sep 30, 2013)

Isn't BBM now (or soon) available as an app for Android / iOS? Bit of a gamble - could sink BB totally, or alternatively develop a new market for them, less about pure hardware, more about software etc.

I'm no expert on this. Would be good if they stayed around though, some people still love their BBs and they definitely have a niche market appeal, it would be sad if they went tits up.


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## mwgdrwg (Sep 30, 2013)

I think BBM will be spun out as a seperate business soon, it's competitior will be Whatsapp etc, not Apple and Google.


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## mauvais (Sep 30, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> That's a very reductionist view that ignores the information in the link. Had they actually risen to the challenge and produced a decent touch screen phone with Verizon things could have been different.


There's no doubt that they did many other things wrong. RCS is a big load of crap designed to keep operators from being poor dumb bitpipes, which is inherently doomed, and although QNX was a good idea, have you ever looked at developing on BB10? There's about five different languages you can use, including Android, and each has pros/cons, rendering the whole affair completely bewildering. These aren't fundamentals though.


Kid_Eternity said:


> It wouldn't have had to be as good as their recent offering either, look at the G1 the early Android phones, they were clunky things yet Android has over a billion activations now and iOS well over half a billion.


The G1 is laughable now, but it wasn't at the time. Start with iOS, which was very clear about its identity and direction when it came out, defining the modern smartphone. Then Android came along, with clarity on its target audience and its differentiators. Both came from essentially nothing and inflated a market out of it. BBRY didn't just fail to innovate or fail to match at that point - it was already in trouble, not least because it was lumbered with a legacy.

Again, BYOD killed it. BYOD started off as the 'MD with an iPad' problem, but morphed into the question of, 'all our staff have smartphones so why not use those?'. Short of within very specific security requirements, Blackberry's enterprise stuff was eroded away by everything else that has happened in the mobile phone space.

Short of using a time machine to beat Apple and/or Google to the punch in the first place, there's no likely scenario in which BBRY could have innovated out of their hole with product alone, because their foundations of your employer saying, 'these are the phones we use' was being washed away. Something similar happened to old Windows Mobile, but the underpinnings were different.

As for BBM, it's a waste of time in the long term. The product's alright but it doesn't stand up on its own without a hardware base. If you want IM, you use what you already use: Facebook, Whatsapp, SMS etc - and those services can be easily displaced themselves.


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 1, 2013)

mauvais said:


> As for BBM, it's a waste of time in the long term. The product's alright but it doesn't stand up on its own without a hardware base. If you want IM, you use what you already use: Facebook, Whatsapp, SMS etc - and those services can be easily displaced themselves.



Whut? BBM is far superior to any of the things you mention there, here's just a few off the top of my head:

1) Set up an account/pin with only an email address - no need to share your phone number and contacts (Whatsapp) or create a Facebook account.
2) Messages are encrypted
3) The little "D" and "R" when your message has been delivered and read - much more useful than the "last online" in Whatsapp
4) Very easy to send all sorts of files
5) Full wi-fi voice and video calling
6) Group messaging
7) Soon...BBM chanels

I use Whatsapp in addition to BBM, and it's just shit in comparison. I will be glad when BBM is out for Android and iOS.


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## mauvais (Oct 1, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> Whut? BBM is far superior to any of the things you mention there, here's just a few off the top of my head:
> 
> 1) Set up an account/pin with only an email address - no need to share your phone number and contacts (Whatsapp) or create a Facebook account.
> 2) Messages are encrypted
> ...


Off the top of my head, Facebook gives you 2, 3, 4 and 6. It doesn't matter though, because (1) it's mostly about what your contacts already use, and (2) everything you mention with the possible exception of #5 are trivial software features and so someone new can turn up tomorrow.


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 1, 2013)

mauvais said:


> Off the top of my head, Facebook gives you 2, 3, 4 and 6. It doesn't matter though, because (1) it's mostly about what your contacts already use, and (2) everything you mention with the possible exception of #5 are trivial software features and so someone new can turn up tomorrow.



You are changing the argument.

I was just disagreeing with your point that it's an 'alright product' that doesn't stand up on it's own. It's very easy to argue that it's the best im/messaging client out there, regardless of userbase, or what other companies may develop tomorrow.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 1, 2013)

mauvais said:


> Off the top of my head, Facebook gives you 2, 3, 4 and 6. It doesn't matter though, because (1) it's mostly about what your contacts already use, and (2) everything you mention with the possible exception of #5 are trivial software features and so someone new can turn up tomorrow.



True, but as a non blackberry owner I was quite impressed last year, when I worked somewhere with no phone reception, by how seamless the wifi voice calling was compared to 3rd party apps. Not impressed enough to buy one though.


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## mauvais (Oct 1, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> You are changing the argument.
> 
> I was just disagreeing with your point that it's an 'alright product' that doesn't stand up on it's own. It's very easy to argue that it's the best im/messaging client out there, regardless of userbase, or what other companies may develop tomorrow.


I'm not really maligning the product - I haven't used it, but plenty of people I know like it. It just doesn't make a business, or at least not one of any size, and I don't think it really stands up without the hardware pushing people towards it. Why would someone who's never owned a Blackberry, and whose friends don't own Blackberrys, go out of their way to sign up for and use BBM?


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 1, 2013)

mauvais said:


> I'm not really maligning the product - I haven't used it, but plenty of people I know like it. It just doesn't make a business, or at least not one of any size, and I don't think it really stands up without the hardware pushing people towards it. Why would someone who's never owned a Blackberry, and whose friends don't own Blackberrys, go out of their way to sign up for and use BBM?



Ah, your original post sounded like you _were_ maligning it.

I'm not sure I can answer your question regarding BBM virgins , but there are definitly millions of people out there that have used it and are now on Android/iOS, and I'm sure some of them will check it out. I guess BlackBerry will have to convince new people to try it, not me.

I've also thought of anothere thing about BBM....I have shared my pin with strangers on the internet, it enables fairly anonymous chat with those sharing similar interests. I would not to that with Facebook/Whatsapp


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## mauvais (Oct 1, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> I've also thought of anothere thing about BBM....I have shared my pin with strangers on the internet, it enables fairly anonymous chat with those sharing similar interests. I would not to that with Facebook/Whatsapp


That's a fair point I guess, but it has drawbacks too - why don't we have ICQ or Compuserve numbers any more?


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 1, 2013)

mauvais said:


> That's a fair point I guess, but it has drawbacks too - why don't we have ICQ or Compuserve numbers any more?



I loved ICQ


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 2, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> I loved ICQ



In some ways IM has gone backwards since the death of desktop clients.


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## gabi (Oct 2, 2013)

I've got a bb for work. It's fucking awful to use. That's all I have to add to this thread.


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## Chz (Oct 3, 2013)

What BB does well, it does very, very well. But what it does well is almost an irrelevance to those outside of secured government jobs these days. The main reason I love my BB for work is that it's a shit smartphone and I won't be tempted to use my work device outside of work. It does everything I need to do for work very well and _nothing else_. I can't fathom why someone would buy one outside of work-only use.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 3, 2013)

Popular with the criminal fraternity.


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## pseudonarcissus (Oct 3, 2013)

we have them for work purely because you can get your emails anywhere in the world for a fixed monthly cost. If that goes if they withdraw from handsets, then I think corporate use will drop off very quickly.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2013)

mauvais said:


> There's no doubt that they did many other things wrong. RCS is a big load of crap designed to keep operators from being poor dumb bitpipes, which is inherently doomed, and although QNX was a good idea, have you ever looked at developing on BB10? There's about five different languages you can use, including Android, and each has pros/cons, rendering the whole affair completely bewildering. These aren't fundamentals though.
> The G1 is laughable now, but it wasn't at the time. Start with iOS, which was very clear about its identity and direction when it came out, defining the modern smartphone. Then Android came along, with clarity on its target audience and its differentiators. Both came from essentially nothing and inflated a market out of it. BBRY didn't just fail to innovate or fail to match at that point - it was already in trouble, not least because it was lumbered with a legacy.
> 
> Again, BYOD killed it. BYOD started off as the 'MD with an iPad' problem, but morphed into the question of, 'all our staff have smartphones so why not use those?'. Short of within very specific security requirements, Blackberry's enterprise stuff was eroded away by everything else that has happened in the mobile phone space.
> ...




The G1 wasn't laughable at the time? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Popular with the criminal fraternity.



Shite begets shite..?


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 3, 2013)

pseudonarcissus said:


> we have them for work purely because you can get your emails anywhere in the world for a fixed monthly cost. If that goes if they withdraw from handsets, then I think corporate use will drop off very quickly.



I've known a good number of big companies that have dumped it over the last couple years.


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## tbtommyb (Oct 14, 2013)

gabi said:


> I've got a bb for work. It's fucking awful to use. That's all I have to add to this thread.


I'm not at all surprised Blackberries are on the way out. Torturous phones to use. Buggy, slow, cumbersome, inflexible. God I can't wait to smash it to pieces when I get a new phone.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 15, 2013)

So the current strategy appears to be 'La la la I can't hear you'...serious idiocy.


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## Mungy (Oct 15, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> I loved ICQ


i loved gooey. the ability to chat to people browsing the same website as you was fantastic.


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## Kid_Eternity (Oct 20, 2013)

Three people I know (all BB users of 5+ years) have dumped it and bought iPhones. Blackberry are proper screwed if people are prepared to leave them after that level of loyalty...


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## Ranbay (Oct 20, 2013)

I have a blackberry and a iphone.


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## maomao (Oct 20, 2013)

I have a blackberry because I'm a Luddite, hate touchscreens and am unlikely to use 90+% of smart phone applications. I can write an email on it and use Googlemaps and that's more than enough for me (ok, I play Sudoku on it too). This is hardly a selling point though.


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## Chz (Oct 21, 2013)

So long as I continue to prefer having both a work and personal phone as separate devices, I choose an Android and a Blackberry. The BB is only used for email and calendar, and it's fantastic at that while giving a decent battery life. No way in hell would I buy one for my own personal use though.


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## Delroy Booth (Nov 18, 2013)

maomao said:


> I have a blackberry because I'm a Luddite


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## yield (Dec 20, 2013)

Blackberry posts record $4.4bn quarterly net loss
theguardian.com, Friday 20 December 2013


> BlackBerry's new chief executive John Chen signalled a new strategy focusing on providing secure email and device management to large businesses as the company plunged to a quarterly net loss of $4.4bn, on revenues down 56% to just $1.2bn.
> 
> The huge loss, driven partly by enormous writedowns on existing inventory, is the largest in the company's history – but Chen insisted that the company is "very much alive" as he tries to shift it away from making handsets.
> 
> The company announced a five-year partnership with Taiwan's Foxconn, which already makes products for Apple and Microsoft, that will see it jointly develop and manufacture smartphones for the Canadian company, effectively taking over manufacturing operations and much of the risk of being left with unsold inventory.





> Analysts expressed some doubts about the move to Foxconn. Colin Gillis, an analyst at BGC Partners, told Associated Press that allowing BlackBerry to be made in China could pose a problem for a company that relies on governments for a lot of its business. "It opens up some security concerns. If you are a government agency with national security data running through your phones, do you have concerns now that they are made by Foxconn?" Gillis wondered.


The national security thing again. Been seeing that a lot recently.


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## Bob_the_lost (Dec 30, 2013)

Kid_Eternity said:


> The G1 wasn't laughable at the time? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!


http://www.engadget.com/products/htc/google/nexus-one/
An average 8.1 in reviews isn't a joke.


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## Bob_the_lost (Dec 30, 2013)

I'd say that the iPhone was probably a significant factor in breaking BB's monopoly over the enterprise. Executives bought them and insisted that they be integrated with the systems so that emails could be read on them. Once the barrier was broken for the execs the logic to keep others locked out disappeared.

But as a factor for it's failure? I suspect it's a similar story to Nokia's Sybian and every other factional, overly political development process where the design gets lost along the way.


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## mauvais (Dec 30, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> http://www.engadget.com/products/htc/google/nexus-one/
> An average 8.1 in reviews isn't a joke.


That's the N1. This is the G1: http://www.engadget.com/products/htc/dream/


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## Bob_the_lost (Dec 30, 2013)

mauvais said:


> That's the N1. This is the G1: http://www.engadget.com/products/htc/dream/


Good point, 7.3 is definitely more middling but still not into 'joke' territory.


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