# Dance troupe Diversity's Black Lives Matter performance receives 24,000 complaints



## editor (Sep 16, 2020)

I've only got around to watching the performance. I thought it was fucking brilliant. Really moving and powerful. How on earth can anyone get so worked up about it*?  









						Diversity's BGT complaints soar above 24,000 almost breaking TV record
					

The performance is close to surpassing the TV's most complained about event of the decade




					www.mirror.co.uk
				




(*rhetorical question!)


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

not sure where you want this thread to go. some people complaining may have been blm supporters - it's probably a mistake to assume everyone who complained is racist or insensitive to the subject. some complainants may have felt this made light of a very serious subject.


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## ska invita (Sep 16, 2020)

Missed a zero off, it's 24000


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## editor (Sep 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Missed a zero off, it's 24000


Corrected!


Pickman's model said:


> not sure where you want this thread to go. some people complaining may have been blm supporters - it's probably a mistake to assume everyone who complained is racist or insensitive to the subject. some complainants may have felt this made light of a very serious subject.


The thread will go where it wants to go, but I think it's worth a discussion, don't you?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

editor said:


> The thread will go where it wants to go, but I think it's worth a discussion, don't you?


yeh it will go where it meanders but not sure opening it with a rhetorical question is going to help the infant discussion grow

but i still think it's a mistake to highlight the number of complaints and imply that people could only not like it if they're wrong uns.


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 16, 2020)

editor said:


> I've only got around to watching the performance. I thought it was fucking brilliant. Really moving and powerful. How on earth can anyone get so worked up about it*?



Ditto 100%.

Music & dance has always be used to tell stories, and sometimes they can be 'political'.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Ditto 100%.
> 
> Music & dance has always be used to tell stories, and sometimes they can be 'political'.


everything's political


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## Petcha (Sep 16, 2020)

I saw Piers Morgan the other morning in reference to this, pointing out that a good number of the people who have complained to Ofcom about his bollocking of tory ministers during the pandemic hadn't actually watched the interviews. Ss he said, its quite probable a lot of the numbskulls who bothered to complain about this performance didn't actually see it.


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## wtfftw (Sep 16, 2020)

There's a counter complaints petition. In support of Diversity's BGT performance


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## editor (Sep 16, 2020)

Petcha said:


> I saw Piers Morgan the other morning in reference to this, pointing out that a good number of the people who have complained to Ofcom about his bollocking of tory ministers during the pandemic hadn't actually watched the interviews. Ss he said, its quite probable a lot of the numbskulls who bothered to complain about this performance didn't actually see it.


I'd say that's highly likely.


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## hegley (Sep 16, 2020)




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## The39thStep (Sep 16, 2020)

It had less than 10k after the performance. It’s risen mainly due to people jumping in the bandwagon and some organised mass complaining . Still less than the Live Island complaints a few years ago .


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

I enjoyed it and forced my mother to watch it (who loathes BGT) and she was more receptive to the message there than she is ‘black lives matter’ (no, she isn’t racist, it’s a bad slogan).


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure where you want this thread to go. some people complaining may have been blm supporters - it's probably a mistake to assume everyone who complained is racist or insensitive to the subject. some complainants may have felt this made light of a very serious subject.


Bollocks. We all know who the sad little cunts complaining about this are.


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## scifisam (Sep 16, 2020)

It is ridiculous. The routine was really good, and ended on a positive note. Plus, Diversity have always had aims beyond entertainment, ever since they first appeared on BGT years ago - I don't usually watch the show, but happened to have a friend over who wanted to watch it one time they were on, and they were really impressive. The main choreographer, Ashley Banjo, is a really impressive guy.

What a fucking world where there are enough trolls willing to try to make something uplifting into something depressing instead.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Bollocks. We all know who the sad little cunts complaining about this are.


we know who most of these slcs are. not necessarily all of them.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

Tbf there are progressive arguments against the likes of BLM being/becoming a vehicle for nationalism. So it’s not as simple as anyone against = racist.


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## maomao (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Tbf there are progressive arguments against the likes of BLM being/becoming a vehicle for nationalism. So it’s not as simple as anyone against = racist.


So you think people were phoning ITV to complain about identity politics being a vehicle for nationalism?


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

maomao said:


> So you think people were phoning ITV to complain about identity politics being a vehicle for nationalism?



Given you got what I thought wrong in very recent history, why are you eager to make a dick out of yourself again so quickly?


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Tbf there are progressive arguments against the likes of BLM being/becoming a vehicle for nationalism. So it’s not as simple as anyone against = racist.


And how would they be relevant in this dance performance that you haven’t seen?  

if you have anything relevant to say, say it somewhere relevant.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> And how would they be relevant in this dance performance that you haven’t seen?



Did you miss post #13 ?


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

Lol.


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Did you miss post #13 ?


No.  And nor have I or anyone else missed you.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> No.  And nor have I or anyone else missed you.



So why did you lie about me having not seen it following me saying I had seen and enjoyed it?


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## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

I am very angry about this.
Whatever it is...


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## editor (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Tbf there are progressive arguments against the likes of BLM being/becoming a vehicle for nationalism. So it’s not as simple as anyone against = racist.


Can you post some here please?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So why did you lie about me having not seen it following me saying I had seen and enjoyed it?


i'm glad to see you posting again


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm glad to see you posting again


Easy target for you


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## ska invita (Sep 16, 2020)

Fair point


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2020)

Anyway, I hope it’s true that Alesha Dixon said she’d quit if ITV apologise. Doing so would completely undermine having shown it in the first place and do nothing but satisfy those reactionary fools who respond with ‘but all lives matter’


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## cupid_stunt (Sep 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> everything's political



Says someone who has never had the misfortune of watching some of the 'acts' on BGT.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> Easy target for you


I like seeing long term urbs return to the fold


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

editor said:


> Can you post some here please?



Yes. Hopefully the author won’t mind.









						The Rhodes Less Travelled
					

For me, the current campaign to remove a statue of Cecil Rhodes from outside Oriel College in Oxford High Street and the similar targeting of statues of British imperialists and slave traders elsew…




					stuartcraft.politics.blog


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## Pickman's model (Sep 16, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Says someone who has never had the misfortune of watching some of the 'acts' on BGT.


Sadly i have found over the years that the talent Britain's got rarely finds its way onto that misnamed show


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## editor (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes. Hopefully the author won’t mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some good points in there, but it appears to be far more about the loose collection of people who formed the Rhodes Must Fall campaign rather than a singular critique of BLM, no?



> Unless those involved in the Rhodes Must Fall protest begin to channel their rage into a wider movement to expose the University’s relationship with present-day human rights abusers, there is a risk that after the campaign peters out, it will go down in history as nothing more than an exercise in gesture politics.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

editor said:


> Some good points in there, but it appears to be far more about the loose collection of people who formed the Rhodes Must Fall campaign rather than a singular critique of BLM, no?



He has another interesting article which is a more broad swipe.









						Black Lives Matter – A Trojan Horse for Conservative, Black Nationalism?
					

There comes a time where silence is betrayal. -Martin Luther King As someone with a strong commitment and a track record, on and off the estate, of fighting for the interests of the working class (…




					stuartcraft.politics.blog


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes. Hopefully the author won’t mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There’s a whole thread on Crafts crass views in p&p, where it would actually be relevant.


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## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> There’s a whole thread on Crafts crass views in p&p, where it would actually be relevant.



No views on that, then?


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## scifisam (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Tbf there are progressive arguments against the likes of BLM being/becoming a vehicle for nationalism. So it’s not as simple as anyone against = racist.



How is BLM a vehicle for nationalism? That doesn't make sense. Do you mean because the dance routine also included a union jack? That's because the routine was about 2020 in the UK.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> There’s a whole thread on Crafts crass views in p&p, where it would actually be relevant.



I said there were progressive arguments against BLM and provided them on request. I can imagine you would take umbrage with your shit politics but his arguments hold water for me.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

scifisam said:


> How is BLM a vehicle for nationalism? That doesn't make sense. Do you mean because the dance routine also included a union jack? That's because the routine was about 2020 in the UK.



I didn’t criticise the dance routine. I enjoyed it.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 16, 2020)

Arguments against BLM I'm sure exist. Not a single person who complained about this dance routine on a Saturday evening entertainment show was making one. Not a single person.


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I said there were progressive arguments against BLM and provided them on request. I can imagine you would take umbrage with your shit politics but his arguments hold water for me.


And I said take them somewhere relevant not in a thread about this dance routine.   Pretty basic.

that you then ‘backed’ up your argument with a quote from a minor ex-councillor putting forward quite reactionary and crude views is another matter.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> And I said take them somewhere relevant not in a thread about this dance routine.   Pretty basic.
> 
> that you then ‘backed’ up your argument with a quote from a minor ex-councillor putting forward quite reactionary and crude views is another matter.



Not sure what is reactionary about his views (he actually argues against reactionary views and does so consistently) but the editor of this site requested me to do something and I responded.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

belboid said:


> a quote from a minor ex-councillor



How snotty, pulling rank here? Can you detail the actions that you have done in your community vs the actions of this ‘minor ex-councillor’ ?


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## scifisam (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn’t criticise the dance routine. I enjoyed it.



Then where does the nationalist thing come from? I'm genuinely asking and don't think you're being a massive racist or anything like that - I don't get how you think it's nationalist.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

scifisam said:


> Then where does the nationalist thing come from? I'm genuinely asking and don't think you're being a massive racist or anything like that - I don't get how you think it's nationalist.



BLM =/= Diversity.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

I took myself off Facebook too bc how many so called progressives were banging on about white privilege. Fuck me. Talk about doing the far right’s leg work for them. I felt physically sick.


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## scifisam (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> BLM =/= Diversity.



That doesn't make your point at all. How is BLM a vehicle for nationalism? That just doesn't make sense.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

scifisam said:


> That doesn't make your point at all. How is BLM a vehicle for nationalism? That just doesn't make sense.



Did you read any of the links I posted? Well meaning liberals love promoting identity politics as a means of explaining victims vs perpetrators but it promotes exactly the same thing that the far right does by division through race. Look, I can’t be bothered arguing about it. But it may lead to places you don’t expect.


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## scifisam (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Did you read any of the links I posted? Well meaning liberals love promoting identity politics as a means of explaining victims vs perpetrators but it promotes exactly the same thing that the far right does by division through race. Look, I can’t be bothered arguing about it. But it may lead to places you don’t expect.



I was asking what you thought, not what people you linked to think. 

And you're still not making any sense unless you're actually claiming that saying black lives matter is divisive. The only people it divides are those who think black lives matter and those who don't. 

And since you watched the dance routine, you'd see that they showed that - it was a mixed troupe, and lived up to its name.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

A curious bystander merely has to look at the dominant arguments - Tommy Robinson on one side arguing FOR white identity/culture, BLM on the other arguing AGAINST white identity/culture and make their decision on where they stand based on that. 
How sad, and frankly, terrifying.


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## ska invita (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> BLM on the other arguing AGAINST white identity/culture


Is that what you think BLM are arguing? I missed that bit


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Is that what you think BLM are arguing? I missed that bit



It’s how the argument is being interpreted. You probably missed that bit too.


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## ska invita (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s how the argument is being interpreted. You probably missed that bit too.


ah ... interpreted ... by who exactly? racists?


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> ah ... interpreted ... by who exactly? racists?



No. By those who we don’t want divided further by politics that does so, even if well intentioned.
Anyway. Good luck with it man. I know you’re on the right side even if you don’t realise you’re aiding the wrong one.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> A curious bystander merely has to look at the dominant arguments... BLM on the other arguing AGAINST white identity/culture


Eh


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Eh



Mate, I can't explain any more than I have and I'm beyond caring now. Have a nice week/weekend.


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## ska invita (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No. By those who we don’t want divided further by politics that does so, even if well intentioned.
> Anyway. Good luck with it man. I know you’re on the right side even if you don’t realise you’re aiding the wrong one.


sounds a lot like your saying people standing up against the racism they experience are only making it worse for themselves because racists are wrongly interpreting it as being "AGAINST white identity/culture".


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## scifisam (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> A curious bystander merely has to look at the dominant arguments - Tommy Robinson on one side arguing FOR white identity/culture, BLM on the other arguing AGAINST white identity/culture and make their decision on where they stand based on that.
> How sad, and frankly, terrifying.



But BLM isn't arguing against "white culture" - unless white culture means killing black people.


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## D'wards (Sep 16, 2020)

Racist cunt in Racist cunt shocker 

I think he has just accepted his role as terrible prick and is doubling down now - getting into it









						Jim Davidson sparks Twitter fury with racist YouTube rant
					

Jim Davidson, 66, said 'the Asian community who have big families are taking no notice' of coronavirus restrictions and are living in 'a bubble of 300 in a f****** house'.




					mol.im


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

*ponders

how many of the 24000 people who complained  also get upset when they make a dodgy comment or joke which does not go down well

and make the  exasperated comment "well someone is always going to be offended"


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

D'wards said:


> Racist cunt in Racist cunt shocker
> 
> I think he has just accepted his role as terrible prick and is doubling down now - getting into it
> 
> ...



he got an Autumn ufo tour date schedule coming along.. is desperately trying to get people to remember who the fuck he is


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> sounds a lot like your saying people standing up against the racism they experience are only making it worse for themselves because racists are wrongly interpreting it as being "AGAINST white identity/culture".



The funny thing is, some of the cops involved with the death of George Floyd could be considered BAME. So why is it being racialised in this way? Surely the starting point, if that was it, is racist cops vs marginalised black people rather than all this white privileged shit all over again.


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

because you more likely to be shot dead by a cop in the united states if you are black...

it about cop culture..


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## D'wards (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The funny thing is, some of the cops involved with the death of George Floyd could be considered BAME. So why is it being racialised in this way? Surely the starting point, if that was it, is racist cops vs marginalised black people rather than all this white privileged shit all over again.


There was a big mural to a hero black cop defaced with ACAB and i think DEFUND THE POLICE in America so I think the whole white supremacy/privilege thing is more of a sub issue. Loads of non-white police in America.


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## D'wards (Sep 16, 2020)

D'wards said:


> There was a big mural to a hero black cop defaced with ACAB and i think DEFUND THE POLICE in America so I think the whole white supremacy/privilege thing is more of a sub issue. Loads of non-white police in America.











						Mural of slain Philadelphia Police Sgt. Robert Wilson III vandalized with graffiti
					

The search is on for the person who vandalized a mural in West Philadelphia that honors a slain Philadelphia police sergeant.




					6abc.com


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## Yossarian (Sep 16, 2020)

Why should Black people have to find terms to describe systemic racism that are more palatable for white people?


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## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> because you more likely to be shot dead by a cop in the united states if you are black...
> 
> it about cop culture..



You are also _far_ more likely to be shot by a non-cop in the US if you are black....

Edit: (... than if you are white)

Can’t believe some people are so hard of thinking that I needed to make the above edit


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

you more likely to be shot by a non cop being any race in america


your more like to shoot yourself

it part of Americas dumb love for guns saying that

they  don't tend to play the other types of people to serve and protect the community mind


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Why should Black people have to find terms to describe systemic racism that are more palatable for white people?



My argument isn’t about what is palatable. Surely the position of any genuine anti-racist/fascist is to oppose racial division wherever those arguments are made? And that means along with Tommy Robinson being wrong for painting all Muslims to be ISIS, it’s equally unhelpful to paint anyone else the same including, (gasp) white people who have done no wrong?
I’m at a loss as to why this is apparently complicated.


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## Reno (Sep 16, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Why should Black people have to find terms to describe systemic racism that are more palatable for white people?


It's not the term that is being argued against, but the fact that BLM is part of identity politics.

There are aspects of BLM which are/were good and necessary but identity politics is the biggest gift liberals/progressive have handed to the right. If you feel uneasy about identity politics, then you should feel uneasy about aspects of BLM. Identity politics thrives on division via a victim hierarchy and the logical fallacy that lived experience automatically makes the opinion of a member of the oppressed group the only right one. Identity politics doesn't bring understanding and unity, it just creates culture wars were both sides dig their heels in further.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 16, 2020)

It's not painting white people as inherently doing wrong, it's asking them to consider why they're not the ones being shot by the police.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It's not painting white people as inherently doing wrong, it's asking them to consider why they're not the ones being shot by the police.



But white people do get shot by the police. And the army. Or is NI too far back in peoples memories?


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My argument isn’t about what is palatable. Surely the position of any genuine anti-racist/fascist is to oppose racial division wherever those arguments are made? And that means along with Tommy Robinson being wrong for painting all Muslims to be ISIS, it’s equally unhelpful to paint anyone else the same including, (gasp) white people who have done no wrong?
> I’m at a loss as to why this is apparently complicated.



Might take a view of it like, Whilst you don't consider yourself or the people you know as part of the problem

it still exist 

as can be seen by the amount of people protesting about it and highlight its message worldwide

Have not seen any black matter protester labelling all white people as anything, more highlight problems with the police and the Justice system


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## D'wards (Sep 16, 2020)

Because the police consider everyone they pull over or move to arrest could be a gun toting cop killer, which is much more likely in the good ol US of A.

The whole thing is a symptom of the rampant gun culture


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

Or perhaps too close to home to consider?


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

D'wards said:


> Because the police consider everyone they pull over or move to arrest could be a gun toting cop killer, which is much more likely in the good ol US of A.
> 
> The whole thing is a symptom of the rampant gun culture



saying that if you are black you statistically more chance to be shot whilst this situation plays out


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Or perhaps too close to home to consider?



I don't find a group of male dancers taking time on a fucking show like BGT as offensive

if it upsets you then you should take a fucking look at yourself


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But white people do get shot by the police. And the army. Or is NI too far back in peoples memories?


NI has nothing to do with this. Black Lives Matter _now_. That's it. It doesn't exclude anything else.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> saying that if you are black you statistically more chance to be shot whilst this situation plays out



In the United States, yes. What about everywhere else?


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But white people do get shot by the police. And the army. Or is NI too far back in peoples memories?



aye i remember it and the british press and public getting the idea that the ones getting shot were terrorist bastards who deserved it


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> NI has nothing to do with this. Black Lives Matter _now_. That's it. It doesn't exclude anything else.



Great. But _where_ do they matter? Do they matter in Equatorial Guinea?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> In the United States, yes. What about everywhere else?


What about everywhere else? This is getting towards the "but why don't we help our homeless veterans instead of refugees" level of argument. It's not a zero sum game.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What about everywhere else? This is getting towards the "but why don't we help our homeless veterans instead of refugees" level of argument. It's not a zero sum game.



I agree though, with you most probably. What annoys me is that the argument is against white people for being lucky not to be shot, rather than constructions of power. The House of Saud aren't White. Neither are the rulers of China, North Korea, Iran or the Philippines. Yet I've got to wear some guilt badge? Fuck off, like.


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## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> What about everywhere else? This is getting towards the "but why don't we help our homeless veterans instead of refugees" level of argument. It's not a zero sum game.



If you called your movement “homeless refugees matter”, then it would be reasonable for people to question you if you appeared to be highly selective in which homeless refugees merited your attention.


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## Petcha (Sep 16, 2020)

I think some credit should be given to the producers of BGT and the executives at ITV who presumably would have had to sign off on this. As stupid as that sounds.

I highly doubt the BBC would.


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

i'm actually disappointed in this thread

and i've been involved in some train wrecks


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> i'm actually disappointed in this thread
> 
> and i've been involved in some train wrecks



It's disappointing that as much as everyone wants me to be making right wing arguments, I haven't been.


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## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Petcha said:


> I think some credit should be given to the producers of BGT and the executives at ITV who presumably would have had to sign off on this. As stupid as that sounds.
> 
> I highly doubt the BBC would.



Been trying to avoid watching it, partly because I hate contemporary dance (if that’s what it is, I also avoid ITV), and partly because it will likely make me despise 24,000 people when I don’t really have the energy, but your comment is making me feel like I need more context.


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's disappointing that as much as everyone wants me to be making right wing arguments, I haven't been.



no its like explaining to my 64 year old da

why he is not part of the problem the BLM is protesting.


even if he hold racist views that i argue with him about quite a bit


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## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's disappointing that as much as everyone wants me to be making right wing arguments, I haven't been.



Oh, go on, go on, go on, go on.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 16, 2020)

8ball said:


> Oh, go on, go on, go on, go on.



_If only more white people were shot..._


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## Petcha (Sep 16, 2020)

8ball said:


> Been trying to avoid watching it, partly because I hate contemporary dance (if that’s what it is, I also avoid ITV), and partly because it will likely make me despise 24,000 people when I don’t really have the energy, but your comment is making me feel like I need more context.



I assume each performance is highly vetted. They must have known it would be controversial, to their cunty saturday night viewers and also their advertisers. Still, I'm sure their YouTube channel has been getting millions of hits!

And it would be a very brave jobsworth at Ofcom to actually take action on this.


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## Petcha (Sep 16, 2020)

It's also worth pointing out other issues were 'covered' in the performance


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## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Petcha said:


> I assume each performance is highly vetted. They must have known it would be controversial, to their cunty saturday night viewers and also their advertisers. Still, I'm sure their YouTube channel has been getting millions of hits!
> 
> And it would be a very brave jobsworth at Ofcom to actually take action on this.



I can’t comment, not having watched it (yet - punching it up now), but the murder of George Floyd seems _exactly_ like the sort of thing you might expect a young dance group of that ilk to be commenting on through their medium.

But I get how an early evening ITV primetime slot might make some telly more execs nervous.


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

which is why its the only time i will give that piece of shit show even a piece of credit


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## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

things that would make me watch BGT

Ant getting his eyes blown out by a freak Paintball marksmanship stunt


----------



## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> which is why its the only time i will give that piece of shit show even a piece of credit



I just watched it.

Very impressive and brilliantly choreographed.  My only gripe is that the message is a bit cloyingly optimistic, but that’s early evening ITV.

Whatever set off the frenzy of complaining isn’t all that obvious, unless it was just the phrase “black lives matter”, or simply touching on the subject at all.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

the phrase BLM, touching on the subject  and maybe feeling uncomfortable whilst eating their eggs


----------



## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> the phrase BLM, touching on the subject  and maybe feeling uncomfortable whilst eating their eggs



I think maybe also the metaphor with the kicking over the riot shields.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Also, <reaching hard for a bright side> 24,000 confirmed twats out of however many millions watch that programme is a small proportion tbf.

As an aside, another significant video of the year I haven’t watched is the murder of George Floyd.  The descriptions are unbearable enough.  8 mins 46 seconds.  Ugh.

Kudos to Diversity for making some of the right people feel uncomfortable.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

Kicking straight into them unproductive

are regular BGT viewers to dim to see this


----------



## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> Kicking straight into them unproductive
> 
> are regular BGT viewers to dim to see this



Not sure if this is mid-edit or whether I’m just too dim to parse this properly.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 16, 2020)

wander off had, not refreshed
the page before hitting enter


still stands if you could kick over a riot shield why would you not


----------



## 8ball (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> wander off had, not refreshed
> the page before hitting enter
> 
> 
> still stands if you could kick over a riot shield why would you not



I figured a lot of people could have made a connection between that and “defund the police”.


----------



## gosub (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> i'm actually disappointed in this thread
> 
> and i've been involved in some train wrecks



Agree, 4 pages and nobodies pointed out they were blatantly infringing social distancing guidelines, and that was before the current change in guidelines.  Defo more than 6 youths, exactly the sort of thing the Home Secretary reckons should be reported


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 16, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> wander off had, not refreshed
> the page before hitting enter
> 
> 
> still stands if you could kick over a riot shield why would you not


are you being deliberately poetic?





> Kicking straight into them unproductive
> 
> are regular BGT viewers to dim to see this


----------



## ska invita (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree though, with you most probably. What annoys me is that the argument is against white people for being lucky not to be shot, rather than constructions of power. The House of Saud aren't White. Neither are the rulers of China, North Korea, Iran or the Philippines. Yet I've got to wear some guilt badge? Fuck off, like.


yes, and within that construction of power is a thing called racism
im with you, attack all the power constructs...racism is one of them though, and if people who are on the sharp end of that particular one - in this case BLM - fight back on it, the answer isnt Whataboutery, its yes im with you lets kick it over...  and build connections to kick over others too.

its not, to reference another thread, my office door is open, come back when youre interested in the other power constructs


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The funny thing is, some of the cops involved with the death of George Floyd could be considered BAME. So why is it being racialised in this way? Surely the starting point, if that was it, is racist cops vs marginalised black people rather than all this white privileged shit all over again.



All lives matter?


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Sad that this has become about a sad,pseudo-left, criticism of BLM rather than about the power and potency of the dance routine. To want to pretend that any of the thousands of complaints were made on that basis is utterly unbelievable and anyone arguing that us doing so in complete bad faith and have no interested in opposing racism.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Sad that this has become about a sad,pseudo-left, criticism of BLM rather than about the power and potency of the dance routine. To want to pretend that any of the thousands of complaints were made on that basis is utterly unbelievable and anyone arguing that us doing so in complete bad faith and have no interested in opposing racism.



Pure speculation, but I wonder if many of the complaints were part of some kind of online right wing strategy?

The name of the dance troupe is clearly going to set some off, even before they seen the piece in question.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Pure speculation, but I wonder if many of the complaints were part of some kind of online right wing strategy?
> 
> The name of the dance troupe is clearly going to set some off, even before they seen the piece in question.


of course they were. as someone said earlier, only a third of the complaints were made straight after transmission. the rest are taking part in the culture war - anti-racism is bad and cultural marxism. After all, if we're going to show anti-racism, we should be fair and show racism as well.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 17, 2020)

Ofcom have called bullshit on the complaints.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Ofcom have called bullshit on the complaints.




Is there a rule about references to political organisations?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Is there a rule about references to political organisations?



There's rules about political bias on network TV, but even if that accusation was made then it would've been nonsense.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> There's rules about political bias on network TV, but even if that accusation was made then it would've been nonsense.



The wording seems to imply this was the basis for a lot of complaints.  Probably the ones that came some time after the screening.
It also seems to be the weakest part of the rebuttal if that is actually a breach of regulations on some count (though if its just 'political bias', then that seems more shaky).


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 17, 2020)

editor said:


> I've only got around to watching the performance. I thought it was fucking brilliant. Really moving and powerful. How on earth can anyone get so worked up about it*?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is the first time I have seen the whole performance, and I think it is glorious. It has brought a tear to my eye (admittedly, lots of things do that these days, but still... ) 

I would be interested to see the reason for the complaints. I don't see how they can be legitimate. How can anyone be offended by it?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Guineveretoo said:


> That is the first time I have seen the whole performance, and I think it is glorious. It has brought a tear to my eye (admittedly, lots of things do that these days, but still... )
> 
> I would be interested to see the reason for the complaints. I don't see how they can be legitimate. How can anyone be offended by it?



Shot in the dark: various parts of section 5 of the Ofcom broadcasting code could be used to argue that the routine was unduly biased against racist murder by the police.

That's really all I've got.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> The wording seems to imply this was the basis for a lot of complaints.  Probably the ones that came some time after the screening.
> It also seems to be the weakest part of the rebuttal if that is actually a breach of regulations on some count (though if its just 'political bias', then that seems more shaky).


Surely political bias means to be biased for or against a political position/party. 

Portraying a white police officer kneeling on a black man's neck while people took pictures with their phone is just replaying facts. Showing that people have been "taking the knee" is not political bias, it is just a fact. I mean, everything in it is replaying statements of fact. Even describing racism as a virus, although not really a statement of fact, can be argued as a valid statement and to be apolitical. 

There is no way these complaints can be upheld.

Surely!


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 17, 2020)

They haven't been.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 17, 2020)

I have just seen this on twitter.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 17, 2020)

Guineveretoo said:


> I have just seen this on twitter.
> 
> View attachment 230685



It was on the last page, just above your posts. 

ETA, sorry, the last page was the OFCOM conclusion, which is the most important one.


----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 17, 2020)

I imagine a significant proportion of those who complained are within the "bloody snowflakes are offended by everything" irony-lite demographic.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 17, 2020)

In terms of asking, “how can somebody hate this thing I love?”, it’s always worth reflecting that the features which inspired you to love it might be the very same ones that inspire somebody else to hate it.  The opposite of love is not hate, it’s apathy.  If something provokes a reaction, there’s no reason to expect it to be the same reaction in everybody.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 17, 2020)

Guineveretoo said:


> That is the first time I have seen the whole performance, and I think it is glorious. It has brought a tear to my eye (admittedly, lots of things do that these days, but still... )
> 
> I would be interested to see the reason for the complaints. I don't see how they can be legitimate. How can anyone be offended by it?


The reason is that this country has an awful lot of people that are thick as shit racists.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The reason is that this country has an awful lot of people that are thick as shit racists.



Of course.  I'm guessing what we're really thinking is 'why did they _say_ they were complaining?'.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Sep 17, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> All lives matter?




 I expect that’s someone will tell me I need to be sent to the re-education camp for this, but I agree with you.

Magnus McGinty ’s posts on this read to me like “not all white people” and whatabouttery . And presented in such a righteous manner that it just turns me off trying harder to understand his POV.

Reno’s posts make more sense and made me think more.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I expect that’s someone will tell me I need to be sent to the re-education camp for this, but I agree with you.
> 
> Magnus McGinty ’s posts on this read to me like “not all white people” and whatabouttery . And presented in such a righteous manner that it just turns me off trying harder to understand his POV.
> 
> Reno’s posts make more sense and made me think more.



Not all white people are ‘privileged’ and not all black people are victims. Why liberals push these sorts of racist ideas themselves is down to them I suppose. I made my point and I’m leaving it at that. It isn’t my responsibility as to whether you understand it or not.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I expect that’s someone will tell me I need to be sent to the re-education camp for this, but I agree with you.
> 
> Magnus McGinty ’s posts on this read to me like “not all white people” and whatabouttery.



I don't agree with everything he says on this issue (or how he does so), but I think (at least part of) his point IS 'not all white people', insofar as lumping white people in one group and black people in another (with some tension between the groups' interests) can obscure the real causes of the problems, and can be a bar to the class solidarity necessary to improve the lives of the vast majority of working class people (regardless of race).  For instance, that by suggesting that the overrepresentation of black people amongst the victims of police brutality is primarily a product of racism fails to address the role of police in protecting the interests of the owners of capital and the overrepresentation of black people in the working class.  And that at the same time liberal middle-class people of colour seek to dominate the movement - to succeed at which they need to make it black v white - which prevents solidarity accross the class whose interests the police threaten.

Eta: posted this before I saw his,  above.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

I dare not mention class for fear of being called a robot.

interestingly, a point I read elsewhere is that the basis of the attacks on Jews as a group in the Holocaust was because of their supposed privilege as a group. It’s a terrible avenue to take whilst presenting it as somehow progressive.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I dare not mention class for fear of being called a robot.
> 
> interestingly, a point I read elsewhere is that the basis of the attacks on Jews as a group in the Holocaust was because of their supposed privilege as a group. It’s a terrible avenue to take whilst presenting it as somehow progressive.



I think some people find your class analysis reductive and crude. And that, sometimes the pursuit of perfection is the enemy of good e.g. when BLM is under attack from racists, that might not be the best time to criticise it without considerable nuance.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> I think some people find your class analysis reductive and crude. And that, *sometimes the pursuit of perfection is the enemy of good* e.g. when BLM is under attack from racists, that might not be the best time to criticise it without considerable nuance.



Irony intended, I hope.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> I think some people find your class analysis reductive and crude. And that, sometimes the pursuit of perfection is the enemy of good e.g. when BLM is under attack from racists, that might not be the best time to criticise it without considerable nuance.



Fair enough. The thinking behind it is that I see left liberals as another hurdle (rather than an ally) towards a working class counter power. It’s their ideas that I rail against; BLM itself isn’t really the focus other than that this dominant narrative will more likely lend towards a nationalist outcome than a socialist one.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Irony intended, I hope.



I completely accept it's a trap I often fall into.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> I completely accept it's a trap I often fall into.



That's not really what I meant.  Self-awareness is one of the things that I think is often absent from some of these debates, though.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> That's not really what I meant.  Self-awareness is one of the things that I think is often absent from some of these debates, though.



What did you mean?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> What did you mean?



That the left wing culture warriors that have got McGinty's back up are no strangers to purity politics themselves.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> That the left wing culture warriors that have got McGinty's back up are no strangers to purity politics themselves.



Ah, I see. And agree completely.

Eta: actually,  not 'completely'; often their shtick is devoid of politics - its just performative culture.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Ah, I see. And agree completely.
> 
> Eta: actually,  not 'completely'; often their shtick is devoid of politics - its just performative culture.



Funny that your first reaction was self-absorbed paranoia


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Funny that your first reaction was self-absorbed paranoia



Reasonable tbf - we spend plenty of time insulting each other in various ways.


----------



## co-op (Sep 17, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It's not painting white people as inherently doing wrong, it's asking them to consider why they're not the ones being shot by the police.



The thing is if we're talking about America, white people _are _being shot, and killed, and in large numbers. The full number isn't collected properly so no one knows exactly but reasonably credible commentators (including eg Gary Younge, the Guardian journo) reckon that twice as many white people as black people are killed by the police each year in the US. Of course that means that you are proportionately more likely to be killed if you're black because there are nearly four times more white people, but whaddyaknow, once you control for class it looks a lot like the distinction almost disappears. 

Again controlling for class is very hard for a whole range of reasons but basically nearly all police killings, black, white, latino, take place in low income neighbourhoods. The racism is that black people are more likely to be living in those neighbourhoods, the policing is actually a red herring in terms of racism, it's just fucking violent across the racial board. But of course liberals don't really want to look down this alley because then they have to consider genuine re-distributive ideas rather than just condemn RACISM in Officer X or Y or whoever, aprocess that also positions themselves as innocent.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Funny that your first reaction was self-absorbed paranoia



Self-awareness.  You should try it.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> ...but of course liberals don't really want to look down this alley because then they have to consider genuine re-distributive ideas rather than just condemn RACISM in Officer X or Y or whoever, aprocess that also positions themselves as innocent.



Just to address this little bit (because there's a lot to unpack here), whether liberal or further left, there is an emphasis on institutional and systemic racism, not just the racist attitude of occasional "bad apple" individuals (which is one of the more conservative explanations that comes up).


----------



## co-op (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Just to address this little bit (because there's a lot to unpack here), whether liberal or further left, there is an emphasis on institutional and systemic racism, not just the racist attitude of occasional "bad apple" individuals.



Well I don't follow MSM or social media much these days but just about everything I've seen has been about individual killings by individual police officers and the 'deeper' level seems to be just breastbeating about how terribly racist America is-and-always-has-been, but with no attempt to analyse that except lots of stuff about 'white privilege' which doesn't seem to add up to much except that white people need to be nicer, which would probably be a good thing but won't get black people out of the ghettos where police kill people.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> Well I don't follow MSM or social media much these days but just about everything I've seen has been about individual killings by individual police officers and the 'deeper' level seems to be just breastbeating about how terribly racist America is-and-always-has-been, but with no attempt to analyse that except lots of stuff about 'white privilege' which doesn't seem to add up to much except that white people need to be nicer, which would probably be a good thing but won't get black people out of the ghettos where police kill people.



"White privilege" always struck me as a shit concept, since it is easy to read it as implying that anti-racists are arguing for the expanding of privilege (as opposed to fighting for _justice_).

But regardless of that, a lot of debate I've seen (quite a lot of it linked to on urban threads) has been of a higher quality than what you describe.


----------



## co-op (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> "White privilege" always struck me as a shit concept, since it is easy to read it as implying that anti-racists are arguing for the expanding of privilege (as opposed to fighting for _justice_).



As Kenan Malik has pointed out if (as is often claimed) 'white privilege' is the ability to forget about racism and ignore it, then that should not be a 'privilege', it should be a basic human right and should not be framed as a special privilege granted to special people.



8ball said:


> But regardless of that, a lot of debate I've seen (quite a lot of it linked to on urban threads) has been of a higher quality than what you describe.



I daresay, but what most people are hearing are the slogans, which is why they matter and most BLM ones (including "BLM") have been pretty awful imo.


----------



## souljacker (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> The thing is if we're talking about America, white people _are _being shot, and killed, and in large numbers.



The difference being that the white people who are being killed are often waving guns about and being dicks whereas your George Floyds and Breanna Taylors are innocently getting on with their lives or committing petty unarmed crimes.  You rarely hear of a white guy getting nicked for shoplifting and then getting killed whilst not resisting. (Not saying it doesn't happen mind).


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> As Kenan Malik has pointed out if (as is often claimed) 'white privilege' is the ability to forget about racism and ignore it, then that should not be a 'privilege', it should be a basic human right and should not be framed as a special privilege granted to special people.



Well, not "ignoring it", that shouldn't be a right.  But not having to encounter it, yes.

The "check your privilege" maxim can be handy as something to keep in the back of your mind, though.
For instance, I've been trying to mindful of not indulging my habit of whining about my time at work when there are so many people around me who have lost their jobs or are in generally precarious positions right now.



co-op said:


> I daresay, but what most people are hearing are the slogans, which is why they matter and most BLM ones (including "BLM") have been pretty awful imo.



Well, the main "Black Lives Matter" slogan has certainly been a powerful one, especially due to being one that you have to be really far along the scumbag scale to disagree with it.


----------



## co-op (Sep 17, 2020)

souljacker said:


> The difference being that the white people who are being killed are often waving guns about and being dicks whereas your George Floyds and Breanna Taylors are innocently getting on with their lives or committing petty unarmed crimes.  You rarely hear of a white guy getting nicked for shoplifting and then getting killed whilst not resisting. (Not saying it doesn't happen mind).



Honestly there are so many police killings in the US that I couldn't generalise from the few I've seen - and one of the things that depresses me about making this a black-white issue is that the vids of white men being killed by police are passed around on far-right networks, the ones I've stumbled on online are every bit as sickening and nasty as those of black men and certainly didn't involve blokes waving guns around, but maybe these are the exceptions.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

souljacker said:


> The difference being that the white people who are being killed are often waving guns about and being dicks whereas your George Floyds and Breanna Taylors are innocently getting on with their lives or committing petty unarmed crimes.  You rarely hear of a white guy getting nicked for shoplifting and then getting killed whilst not resisting. (Not saying it doesn't happen mind).



And so the best approach is to divide the victims into privileged and non privileged groups. Terrible idea.


----------



## co-op (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Well, the main "Black Lives Matter" slogan has certainly been a powerful one, especially due to being one that you have to be really far along the scumbag scale to disagree with it.



Of course you do, but it absolutely invites someone to say, "all lives matter" (and they do) or "white lives matter" (and they do). For many many people, the idea that you are "allowed" to say one and not the other is itself racist, it's intuitively not fair. And yes there are are more thoughtful ways of getting into this which show why these statements are not equivalent etc but that's not what slogans do, they are non-thoughtful, direct-access demands and a good one is important. For me BLM fails the test, it alienates loads of people who should be right on side. Just my experience.


----------



## souljacker (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And so the best approach is to divide the victims into privileged and non privileged groups. Terrible idea.



And for the record, that is definitely not what I've said.

You seem quite keen to attack people who are allies to the cause. Not sure that really helps either.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> Of course you do, but it absolutely invites someone to say, "all lives matter" (and they do) or "white lives matter" (and they do). For many many people, the idea that you are "allowed" to say one and not the other is itself racist, it's intuitively not fair. And yes there are are more thoughtful ways of getting into this which show why these statements are not equivalent etc but that's not what slogans do, they are non-thoughtful, direct-access demands and a good one is important. For me BLM fails the test, it alienates loads of people who should be right on side. Just my experience.



I'm not sure the meaning was so hard to grasp.  I think a lot of that talk was disingenuous.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

souljacker said:


> And for the record, that is definitely not what I've said.
> 
> You seem quite keen to attack people who are allies to the cause. Not sure that really helps either.



I should have left this ages ago. But you made a weird point that black victims of police brutality are ‘just getting on with their lives’ but white ones ‘are asking for it’.


----------



## souljacker (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I should have left this ages ago. But you made a weird point that black victims of police brutality are ‘just getting on with their lives’ but white ones ‘are asking for it’.



No I didn't.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> As Kenan Malik has pointed out if (as is often claimed) 'white privilege' is the ability to forget about racism and ignore it, then that should not be a 'privilege', it should be a basic human right and should not be framed as a special privilege granted to special people.


But that isn’t what is overwhelmingly meant by ‘White privilege’ so he’s creating a straw man. White privilege is not having to worry about whether the police are going to stop you, whether that landlord will give you that rental, just because you’re black.   It’s not forgetting about racism it’s not being _subject to _that racism. I still don’t like the term ‘privilege’ because it is right that that is/should be a right for all, but there’s still a need for some similar such term.

ALL white people do escape that risk, and ALL black people are subject to it.  Of course some people of either colour are much more affected than others, and it is contradictory as some black people can benefit from racism while most white people also lose out as racism divides us and makes us all weaker.  But going ‘not all white people’ or thinking black lives matter is a divisive slogan marks you out as a straightforward reactionary, not someone trying to apply ‘nuance’


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

souljacker said:


> No I didn't.





> The difference being that the white people who are being killed are often waving guns about and being dicks whereas your George Floyds and Breanna Taylors are innocently getting on with their lives or committing petty unarmed crimes.



Almost as if the history of white victims of police brutality is agreed with, or erased.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

Surely the problem is hierarchy and the police, rather than building a hierarchy of victims?


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

souljacker said:


> The difference being that the white people who are being killed are often waving guns about and being dicks whereas your George Floyds and Breanna Taylors are innocently getting on with their lives or committing petty unarmed crimes.  You rarely hear of a white guy getting nicked for shoplifting and then getting killed whilst not resisting. (Not saying it doesn't happen mind).



I've not seen the data so I can't say for certain whether or not that's true.  (I don't know if you have any empirical evidence?)  But, maybe a reason you don't hear about them is it's in the interests of the class that controls the media to peddle a narrative that police killings are the result of something that can be eradicated e.g. police racism, rather than the fact that they are intrinsic to a system that exists to protect the 'haves' from the 'have nots', at any cost.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> I've not seen the data so I can't say for certain whether or not that's true.  (I don't know if you have any empirical evidence?)  But, maybe a reason you don't hear about them is it's in the interests of the class that controls the media to peddle a narrative that police killings are the result of something that can be eradicated e.g. police racism, rather than the fact that they are intrinsic to a system that exists to protect the 'haves' from the 'have nots', at any cost.



That would seem rather reliant on the police never dealing with their racism issue, and the media always reporting in a predictably corrupt manner.

Which describes things well enough, but seems a bit precarious in terms of a system you'd build on purpose.


----------



## co-op (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> I think a lot of that talk was disingenuous.



I know it's comforting to think so but that's not my impression just on a personal basis, people I know (family etc) who are resolutely non-thinky about politics and definitely look on someone like Tommy Robinson as an obvious wanker were muttering about this to me, which I found depressing.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> That would seem rather reliant on the police never dealing with their racism issue, and the media always reporting in a predictably corrupt manner.



The state don't require the police to address their racism in any meaningful way, and the press will always reflect the interests of those who control it i.e. capitalists.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> The state don't require the police to address their racism in any maningful way, and the press will always reflect the interests of those who control it i.e. capitalists.



A 'just so' story.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> But going ‘not all white people’ or thinking black lives matter is a divisive slogan marks you out as a straightforward reactionary, not someone trying to apply ‘nuance’.



Whilst I agree with you that it ought not to be controversial, it's undeniably divisive insofar as it's the subject of much disagreement.  Maybe not with what's explicitly included, but with what they perceive - wrongly, in my opinion - as having been excluded.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> I know it's comforting to think so but that's not my impression just on a personal basis, people I know (family etc) who are resolutely non-thinky about politics and definitely look on someone like Tommy Robinson as an obvious wanker were muttering about this to me, which I found depressing.



I really didn't see much of this.  It kind of made me wonder what was different this time, after so many killings.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Almost as if the history of white victims of police brutality is agreed with, or erased.


I think you'll find the preponderance of vopb have been working class, be they black, white, brown, yellow or blue. People like mark saunders very much atypical. But being as so many vopb, out of all proportion to their percentage of the population, are black why can't you just agree that until black lives matter all lives are diminished in value? One step a time, mm


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> A 'just so' story.



Do you disagree with either limb of it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> A 'just so' story.


How the journalist changed his spots


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> I'm not sure the meaning was so hard to grasp.  I think a lot of that talk was disingenuous.
> 
> View attachment 230719



 This is one of the best explainers I've seen.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Do you disagree with either limb of it?



I disagree with the implication that it is by design, or that either state of affairs has particularly high long-term stability.
And I also disagree that the drawing of attention to police brutality against racial minorities is getting anyone off the hook re: wider issues, such as the levels of economic inequality in the States.

I've heard heaps of discussions about systems of reproduction of injustice recently as part of discussion of these issues.


----------



## co-op (Sep 17, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> This is one of the best explainers I've seen.




Gotta be honest I think that's really awful and I wouldn't show it to the people I'm thinking of.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Do you disagree with either limb of it?


You have to be very careful talking about abstractions such as 'the state' and ascribing them personhood in that way. You can quickly fall into essentially meaningless statements. 

Which bits of the state, and at what times? I can think of plenty of reasons why 'the state' might want the police to police in a non-racist way. Motivations could range from keeping order and keeping capital happy to straightforwardly seeking to establish social justice as a good in its own right. Depends which bits of the state you're talking about and at what time you're talking about it. 

I can also think of reasons certain forces within the state might think differently, but there isn't a simple 'person' acting as 'the state' in an unambiguous way.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> I disagree with the implication that it is by design, or that either state of affairs has particularly high long-term stability.
> And I also disagree that the drawing of attention to police brutality against racial minorities is getting anyone off the hook re: wider issues, such as the levels of economic inequality in the States.
> 
> I've heard heaps of discussions about systems of reproduction of injustice recently as part of discussion of these issues.



I think it's opportunistic for the time being, rather than a plan from the outset with any longevity.  And the fact that it's not a 100% sucessful diversion doesn't mean it's not a useful narrative for that class to peddle.


----------



## Reno (Sep 17, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> This is one of the best explainers I've seen.



Thank you for a perfect example of what's wrong  with identity politics.
That is no way to educate people or how to win them over. You don't convince someone by hectoring them, by shaming them, by calling them dumb, by cancelling them. I'm convinced that many people who consider themselves as not particularly political or who simply are poorly educated in issues of race, gender, sexuality, etc are put off by the tone of the discussion. Those people who were sitting on the fence, then are easy pickings for the alt right and for populists. Identity politics is narcissism dressed up as activism. It just reassures those who shout at others on social media of their own moral superiority and that's all it does.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

co-op said:


> Gotta be honest I think that's really awful and I wouldn't show it to the people I'm thinking of.



Yeah, I posted the cartoon above because people seem to instantly get it, and it's just two panes.
It's also the gentlest way I've seen of saying "it's you that's being the dick here".


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Whilst I agree with you that it ought not to be controversial, it's undeniably divisive insofar as it's the subject of much disagreement.  Maybe not with what's explicitly included, but with what they perceive - wrongly, in my opinion - as having been excluded.


What? Sounds like making excuses for bigots and buffoons.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you'll find the preponderance of vopb have been working class, be they black, white, brown, yellow or blue. People like mark saunders very much atypical. But being as so many vopb, out of all proportion to their percentage of the population, are black why can't you just agree that until black lives matter all lives are diminished in value? One step a time, mm



I find it odd that BLM was born in the US and spread to the UK some 4,000+ miles away yet the same concern has never been considered for those living in eg Equatorial Guinea. It’s almost as if black lives don’t matter at all unless there’s a racially divisive angle to be gained by those seeking it.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> I think it's opportunistic for the time being, rather than a plan from the outset with any longevity.  And the fact that it's not a 100% sucessful diversion doesn't mean it's not a useful narrative for that class to peddle.



I think something like that is going on, tbf, amongst a bunch of other things.

There is capital to be found in corporate virtue-signalling. 
A lot of companies that were pushing the #blacklivesmatter message quietly dropped it once the anti-capitalist stance became clear.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You have to be very careful talking about abstractions such as 'the state' and ascribing them personhood in that way. You can quickly fall into essentially meaningless statements.
> 
> Which bits of the state, and at what times? I can think of plenty of reasons why 'the state' might want the police to police in a non-racist way. Motivations could range from keeping order and keeping capital happy to straightforwardly seeking to establish social justice as a good in its own right. Depends which bits of the state you're talking about and at what time you're talking about it.
> 
> I can also think of reasons certain forces within the state might think differently, but there isn't a simple 'person' acting as 'the state' in an unambiguous way.



Yes, it was a simplification, but it suffices in this context i.e. where we're talking about the current US administration, to assume that, in the round, it's essentially a tool of capital.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I find it odd that BLM was born in the US and spread to the UK some 4,000+ miles away yet the same concern has never been considered for those living in eg Equatorial Guinea. It’s almost as if black lives don’t matter at all unless there’s a racially divisive angle to be gained by those seeking it.


Not so odd. You're comparing apples with oranges. In one case you have societies in which there is systemic racism that is a lived everyday reality for black people living there, which is the thing that BLM addresses. In the other case you have a country with desperately poor people in it who are poor as a result of structural exploitative systems but who don't experience any racism at all on a day to day level.

If you think BLM is racially divisive, you're misreading it imo.

ETA: Having said that, one very positive thing that came to the fore at least briefly here wrt BLM was getting people to think about about why some people are rich and others are poor, both on an individual and a national level. The so-called 'decolonisation' of the school curriculum, for instance, is something that has been given a significant boost by BLM. All power to them for that. 

That they don't address every problem everywhere? Well it's a bit silly to be asking them to, isn't it?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Yes, it was a simplification, but it suffices in this context i.e. where we're talking about the current US administration, to assume that, in the round, it's essentially a tool of capital.


But even that isn't straightforward. There will be those acting in the service of capital who will see racist policing as a hinderance, not a help, when it comes to maximising returns.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Reno said:


> Thank you for a perfect example of what's wrong  with identity politics.
> That is no way to educate people or how to win them over. You don't convince someone by hectoring them, by shaming them, by calling them dumb, by cancelling them. I'm convinced that many people who consider themselves as not particularly political or who simply are poorly educated in issues of race, gender, sexuality, etc are put off by the tone of the discussion. Those people who were sitting on the fence, then are easy pickings for the alt right and for populists. Identity politics is narcissism dressed up as activism.


That’s hardly something unique to ‘identity politics’ (whatever that means, it’s pretty much different whoever you speak to) tho, I’ve seen it in every political sphere I’ve been involved with.  Shit arguers are just shit arguers.


----------



## souljacker (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Almost as if the history of white victims of police brutality is agreed with, or erased.



Almost as if you see what you want to see in peoples posts.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I find it odd that BLM was born in the US and spread to the UK some 4,000+ miles away yet the same concern has never been considered for those living in eg Equatorial Guinea. It’s almost as if black lives don’t matter at all unless there’s a racially divisive angle to be gained by those seeking it.


Wow.  Opposing racism is ‘racially divisive’ now.  Let’s just ignore it and it will go away.   We’re all colour blind now, etc etc.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not so odd. You're comparing apples with oranges. In one case you have societies in which there is systemic racism that is a lived everyday reality for black people living there, which is the thing that BLM addresses. In the other case you have a country with desperately poor people in it who are poor as a result of structural exploitative systems but who don't experience any racism at all on a day to day level.
> 
> If you think BLM is racially divisive, you're misreading it imo.



It’s definitely being exploited by many who are. Some well meaning, others who have other agendas.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s definitely being exploited by many who are. Some well meaning, others who have other agendas.


Such as?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Wow.  Opposing racism is ‘racially divisive’ now.  Let’s just ignore it and it will go away.   We’re all colour blind now, etc etc.



and racism and exploitation also occurs under the cover of ‘opposing racism’. You’d argue in favour of those cunts though.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Such as?



Really?


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> What? Sounds like making excuses for bigots and buffoons.



No, I think they're wrong to take issue with it.  But they do, which means it is divisive in the definitional sense i.e. that it tends to cause disagreement.  That remains the case notwithstanding that disagreement is predicated on a misunderstanding, or even bigotry.  I think it's a weakness of the slogan that even people who agree with the literal message are able to misinterpret the meaning.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> That’s hardly something unique to ‘identity politics’ (whatever that means, it’s pretty much different whoever you speak to) tho, I’ve seen it in every political sphere I’ve been involved with.



Identity politics does help to amplify the issues that come with tribalism, though, because at its logical end you find yourself on a planet populated by 7.6 billion special-interest groups.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But even that isn't straightforward. There will be those acting in the service of capital who will see racist policing as a hinderance, not a help, when it comes to maximising returns.



True, which is why I said "in the round".


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Really?


Ok well you've mentioned both the US and the UK, but this is a thread about a UK BLM thing, so let's stick to the UK for now. What I have seen is demonstrations that have attended by mostly young people and always multi-racial groups. I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff. I've also seen attempts by numerous corporations, with varying degrees of cynicism, to jump on the bandwagon and attempt to coopt and so neutralise the message. But none of that is racially divisive. 

What have you seen?


----------



## Reno (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> That’s hardly something unique to ‘identity politics’ (whatever that means, it’s pretty much different whoever you speak to) tho, I’ve seen it in every political sphere I’ve been involved with.  Shit arguers are just shit arguers.


Now we have social media which gives shit arguers the exposure and the audience to fuck up the world even further, both on the left and the right. This type of thing is dominating much of the political discourse now. And the shit argument is always going to win, because most people don't like nuance, they like black & white answers.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok well you've mentioned both the US and the UK, but this is a thread about a UK BLM thing, so let's stick to the UK for now. What I have seen is demonstrations that have attended by mostly young people and always multi-racial groups. I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff. I've also seen attempts by numerous corporations, with varying degrees of cynicism, to jump on the bandwagon and attempt to coopt and so neutralise the message. But none of that is racially divisive.
> 
> What have you seen?



You don’t think a movement that is built on identity could be exploited in the same way that eg the FLA was?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff.



Unsure if sarcasm...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You don’t think a movement that is built on identity could be exploited in the same way that eg the FLA was?


For example...

Even there, I would take issue with the idea that this is a movement that is built on such a nebulous thing as identity. This is a movement that is built on the solid fact of racism.

Hard to say this without sounding rude, but I don't think you 'get' BLM. I think it's probably a much simpler phenomenon than you think it is.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Unsure if sarcasm...


In the grand scheme of things it may not matter much. But I followed that online live in Bristol and my heart was warmed. 

We should enjoy small victories when they come.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the grand scheme of things it may not matter much. But I followed that online live in Bristol and my heart was warmed.
> 
> We should enjoy small victories when they come.



Maybe it's a "you had to be there".


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2020)

People find it really hard to hear that something they've done or said or think is racist, and lash out against the idea, however gently it's expressed (it seems to me). I'd welcome some ideas about how to talk about this stuff constructively, 'cause I actually think it's important that we do, even though there are other important battles to be had. 

A few months ago, I had the task of sifting through a big pile of CVs for a temp position my company had: after sifting I remembered a show I'd heard on R4 about how people with obviously ethnic minority names struggled to get interviews, so I went through them again - and would you believe, _every_ black or brown looking name was in the 'no' pile. It was pretty stark. But I also think it's probably a very natural thing to happen - you go with the familiar, the names you recognise, the people _like you_. 

I expect everyone does it - in the people they hire, the people they choose to hang out with, the books they read, the art they consume, etc etc...  and unless you're conscious about it and adjusting for it constantly - and that's always going to be an imperfect process with it's own problems and biases - it adds up to minorities being excluded in a thousand different ways. It adds up to us all being a bit racist. How do we talk about that without getting people's backs up though?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> A few months ago, I had the task of sifting through a big pile of CVs for a temp position my company had: after sifting I remembered a show I'd heard on R4 about how people with obviously ethnic minority names struggled to get interviews, so I went through them again - and would you believe, _every_ black or brown looking name was in the 'no' pile. It was pretty stark. But I also think it's probably a very natural thing to happen - you go with the familiar, the names you recognise, the people _like you_.



Did you have criteria you used while sifting that you later found yourself to have deviated from?


----------



## Reno (Sep 17, 2020)

I hardly ever stray into the politics forums for the sake of my blood pressure, but editor keeps dragging topics in here, which should be in the news and politics forum.   

This was never going to spark a long discussion about the artistry of a 4 minute dance number on a talent show, was it ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok well you've mentioned both the US and the UK, but this is a thread about a UK BLM thing, so let's stick to the UK for now. What I have seen is demonstrations that have attended by mostly young people and always multi-racial groups. I've seen the toppling of statues to slave owners, really heartwarming stuff. I've also seen attempts by numerous corporations, with varying degrees of cynicism, to jump on the bandwagon and attempt to coopt and so neutralise the message. But none of that is racially divisive.
> 
> What have you seen?



It’s a shame that all the devils are white, even those who aren’t, and as such the focus is shifted from the simple fact that devils are due to power, not skin colour.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> People find it really hard to hear that something they've done or said or think is racist, and lash out against the idea, however gently it's expressed (it seems to me). I'd welcome some ideas about how to talk about this stuff constructively, 'cause I actually think it's important that we do, even though there are other important battles to be had.
> 
> A few months ago, I had the task of sifting through a big pile of CVs for a temp position my company had: after sifting I remembered a show I'd heard on R4 about how people with obviously ethnic minority names struggled to get interviews, so I went through them again - and would you believe, _every_ black or brown looking name was in the 'no' pile. It was pretty stark. But I also think it's probably a very natural thing to happen - you go with the familiar, the names you recognise, the people _like you_.
> 
> I expect everyone does it - in the people they hire, the people they choose to hang out with, the books they read, the art they consume, etc etc...  and unless you're conscious about it and adjusting for it constantly - and that's always going to be an imperfect process with it's own problems and biases - it adds up to minorities being excluded in a thousand different ways. It adds up to us all being a bit racist. How do we talk about that without getting people's backs up though?


With difficulty, ime. But what you outline there can be a start - if you can give an example of a situation in which you have had to confront your unconscious biases, then you don't come across as superior. 

In a work situation, it can be easier because you can propose concrete solutions. EG for your example there, an easy fix is that the person evaluating the CVs has names taken off before they are given them.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> No, I think they're wrong to take issue with it.  But they do, which means it is divisive in the definitional sense i.e. that it tends to cause disagreement.  That remains the case notwithstanding that disagreement is predicated on a misunderstanding, or even bigotry.  I think it's a weakness of the slogan that even people who agree with the literal message are able to misinterpret the meaning.


Dear god what awful liberalism.   It’s not a dinner party debate it’s actually a matter of life and death for many people.  Which means being blunt and direct, not toadying around to gain the approval of people who won’t join you in the actual struggle.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

Reno said:


> I hardly ever stray into the politics forums for the sake of my blood pressure, but editor keeps dragging topics in here, which should be in the news and politics forum.
> 
> This was never going to spark a long discussion about the artistry of a 4 minute dance number on a talent show, was it ?



Me too mate. P&P has always been controlled.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Reno said:


> This was never going to spark a long discussion about the artistry of a 4 minute dance number on a talent show, was it ?



I don't think it was the artistry as such which inspired so many complaints.


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Did you have criteria you used while sifting that you later found yourself to have deviated from?


That wasn't the part of the post I'm interested in discussing tbh, ta.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Dear god what awful liberalism.   It’s not a dinner party debate it’s actually a matter of life and death for many people.  Which means being blunt and direct, not toadying around to gain the approval of people who won’t join you in the actual struggle.



Lol.  I've not tried to gain anyone's approval.  I just pointed out that, whether or not you or I like it, the slogan is demonstrably, literally divisive, which is a weakness.  I've certainly not made any excuses for those who take issue with it; I've criticised them in each of my posts on the topic.


----------



## Reno (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> I don't think it was the artistry as such which inspired so many complaints.


Obviously it was the politics. I have complaints about the artistry, but it's probably not worth getting into.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s a shame that all the devils are white, even those who aren’t, and as such the focus is shifted from the simple fact that devils are due to power, not skin colour.


You live your straw men as much as Malik.  Thankfully no one, apart from maybe Farrakhan, argues any such thing.   You just keep arguing against anti racism. Bit shit that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> That wasn't the part of the post I'm interested in discussing tbh, ta.


It's a way in to the discussion though. Cos potentially, having realised something about the process, you can propose the simple change without accusing anyone of anything. In fact the only person you're accusing in this case is yourself. If everyone agrees to it, you have both fixed that particular problem and potentially got people to think about the issues around it. No?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Dear god what awful liberalism.   It’s not a dinner party debate it’s actually a matter of life and death for many people.  Which means being blunt and direct, not toadying around to gain the approval of people who won’t join you in the actual struggle.



The struggle. Lol. Where’s the protests for DPRK?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> That wasn't the part of the post I'm interested in discussing tbh, ta.



I was just kind of wondering whether you had a 'plan' for what you were looking for that you strayed from.
Removing the names from CV's (as LBJ suggested) is something I've heard about some companies doing.

I guess we'd then see what other cues people are using to filter for people who are 'like them'.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> You live your straw men as much as Malik.  Thankfully no one, apart from maybe Farrakhan, argues any such thing.   You just keep arguing against anti racism. Bit shit that.



I didn’t even mention Malik. A pretty odd response.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Lol.  I've not tried to gain anyone's approval.  I just pointed out that, whether or not you or I like it, the slogan is demonstrably, literally divisive, which is a weakness.  I've certainly not made any excuses for those who take issue with it; I've criticised them in each of my posts on the topic.


So you made a pointless post, fair enough.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s a shame that all the devils are white, even those who aren’t, and as such the focus is shifted from the simple fact that devils are due to power, not skin colour.


That's all a bit abstract again. As I said, I think BLM is a much simpler thing than you're making it out to be. It is people coming together to make a stand against racism. And both in the US and the UK (and Belgium for that matter), it is people of all races coming together to make that stand together. And. Um. What else?


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> So you made a pointless post, fair enough.


No, it had a point: that you were wrong to say the slogan isn't divisive - it clearly is (regardless of the fact that it shouldn't be).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> No, it had a point: that you were wrong to say the slogan isn't divisive - it clearly is (regardless of the fact that it shouldn't be).


Or it simply highlights divisions that were already there.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I didn’t even mention Malik. A pretty odd response.


Read the thread.  

Ignore the Malik part - you are making up reasons to oppose anti-racism,using arguments no one in the movement you are opposing actually makes.  It has nothing to do with what is actually happening.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Or it simply highlights divisions that were already there.



It certinly does that, too.  But 'divisive' means to cause disagreement; this slogan has indisputably done so, even if only about what it means, and notwithstanding that one side of that disagreement is wrong!


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> No, it had a point: that you were wrong to say the slogan isn't divisive - it clearly is (regardless of the fact that it shouldn't be).


Yeah, that’s pretty pointless.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Yeah, that’s pretty pointless.



Yes, pointing out your errors is largely unnecessary.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> I was just kind of wondering whether you had a 'plan' for what you were looking for that you strayed from.
> Removing the names from CV's (as LBJ suggested) is something I've heard about some companies doing.
> 
> I guess we'd then see what other cues people are using to filter for people who are 'like them'.


_Be the change you want to see _

_* _pukes *


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Yes, pointing out your errors is largely unnecessary.


Do tell us how many angels we can fit on the head of a pin.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's all a bit abstract again. As I said, I think BLM is a much simpler thing than you're making it out to be. It is people coming together to make a stand against racism. And both in the US and the UK (and Belgium for that matter), it is people of all races coming together to make that stand together. And. Um. What else?



It’s a shame that you think it’s simpler than what it is but uprisings matter to me and how they think matter even more. If the dominant narrative (which, let’s not argue) is ‘white privilege’ then who is their enemy? And if the outcome of that results in black vs white, whose interests does it serve?
Which raises the question, why are those who claim to want an equitable society pushing the antagonisms in the same way that the far right do?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Read the thread.
> 
> Ignore the Malik part - you are making up reasons to oppose anti-racism,using arguments no one in the movement you are opposing actually makes.  It has nothing to do with what is actually happening.



Why am I opposing anti racism you mad cunt?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Do tell us how many angels we can fit on the head of a pin.



9


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s a shame that you think it’s simpler than what it is but uprisings matter to me and how they think matter even more. If the dominant narrative (which, let’s not argue) is ‘white privilege’ then who is their enemy? And if the outcome of that results in black vs white, whose interests does it serve?
> Which raises the question, why are those who claim to want an equitable society pushing the antagonisms in the same way that the far right do?


I really don't get the sense BLM is about division. It's about tearing down the _old, entrenched_ white power structures to be replaced by something more equitable that supporters of BLM black and white alike want


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Do tell us how many angels we can fit on the head of a pin.



Lol.  My position - what is i.e. that the slogan has weaknesses- has a lot more practical use in the fight against racism than yours - what should be i.e. that the slogan ought not to be contentious.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s a shame that you think it’s simpler than what it is but uprisings matter to me and how they think matter even more. If the dominant narrative (which, let’s not argue) is ‘white privilege’ then who is their enemy? And if the outcome of that results in black vs white, whose interests does it serve?
> Which raises the question, why are those who claim to want an equitable society pushing the antagonisms in the same way that the far right do?


But it isn't black vs white. In terms of those directly involved in antagonism, it's racists vs anti-racists. 

And yes, it is necessary to take a side. That's one of the messages I see coming from BLM. But those sides are not defined by race. They are defined by racism.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I really don't get the sense BLM is about division. It's about tearing down the _old, entrenched_ white power structures to be replaced by something more equitable that supporters of BLM black and white alike want



 But what about the _current_ non-white global power structures? Those that do all kinds of nasty things to non-white workers that they’d ever experience in the west.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But it isn't black vs white. In terms of those directly involved in antagonism, it's racists vs anti-racists.
> 
> And yes, it is necessary to take a side. That's one of the messages I see coming from BLM. But those sides are not defined by race. They are defined by racism.



 But ‘white privilege’ is a racist argument. Why? Because you’re reducing the actions of people to the colour of their skin. Why is this acceptable?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But ‘white privilege’ is a racist argument. Why? Because you’re reducing the actions of people to the colour of their skin. Why is this acceptable?


I happen to agree with you largely about framing political discussions in terms of 'privilege'. It is often unhelpful. But I've heard the term used in a way not intended to be racist in that way - not reducing the actions of people to the colour of their skin, but rather reducing how they are acted on by others to the colour of their skin.

The example killer b gave upthread re CVs would be a case in point (names standing as a rough proxy for colour in this instance).


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 17, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I really don't get the sense BLM is about division. It's about tearing down the _old, entrenched_ white power structures to be replaced by something more equitable that supporters of BLM black and white alike want



A leader of BLM in America was interviewed on Fox News where he stated that they (BLM) would burn down the system if they didn’t get what they wanted (or words to similar effect).

Ive now seen criticism of BLM portraying them as a Marxist group.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why am I opposing anti racism you mad cunt?


I don’t know why you are, but you are.   You’ve made excuses for those who are anti BLM on spurious grounds and seem to deny the reality of what racism is.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But ‘white privilege’ is a racist argument. Why? Because you’re reducing the actions of people to the colour of their skin. Why is this acceptable?


It really _really_ does not do that.   The whole point is that it isn’t about any explicit actions you take.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I happen to agree with you largely about framing political discussions in terms of 'privilege'. It is often unhelpful. But I've heard the term used in a way not intended to be racist in that way - not reducing the actions of people to the colour of their skin, but rather reducing how they are acted on by others to the colour of their skin.
> 
> The example killer b gave upthread re CVs would be a case in point (names standing as a rough proxy for colour in this instance).



It’s a strange fact that immigrant incomers will end up in working class communities to serve the interests of capital. This existed for (centuries?) but the sharp turn comes when there’s a shortage of housing and amenities. This aids the politics of the far right. 
What liberals appear to do is abandon the above and then disregard them as racists if they dare to complain. This needs to be understood with regards to what I am saying.
So there’s a new movement called BLM that ticks all the boxes for those of a particular political bent. But it just winds up further those who are struggling economically to be called ‘privileged’ in times where there’s nothing.
This is sometimes difficult to understand with people who have been to university and always had food on the table but it’s fucking dangerous.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> It really _really_ does not do that.   The whole point is that it isn’t about any explicit actions you take.


yeah, while I don't much like the term, that's absolutely right. It's privilege by absence, essentially. 

If you're white, you don't walk through life in a racist society being judged and acted on adversely due to your race. 
If you're black, you do.

Even MM wouldn't argue that the essence of those statements is wrong, surely?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> It really _really_ does not do that.   The whole point is that it isn’t about any explicit actions you take.



You don’t know what it does . Because you’re removed from it.


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> Lol.  My position - what is i.e. that the slogan has weaknesses- has a lot more practical use in the fight against racism than yours - what should be i.e. that the slogan ought not to be contentious.


Your position is to weaken the current movement, those who find it contentious are either reactionaries are largely passive commentators.  Neither are of much use in building a movement that will actually fight racism.  Jolly interesting dinner party discussions though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s a strange fact that immigrant incomers will end up in working class communities to serve the interests of capital. This existed for (centuries?) but the sharp turn comes when there’s a shortage of housing and amenities. This aids the politics of the far right.
> What liberals appear to do is abandon the above and then disregard them as racists if they dare to complain. This needs to be understood with regards to what I am saying.
> So there’s a new movement called BLM that ticks all the boxes for those of a particular political bent. But it just winds up further those who are struggling economically to be called ‘privileged’ in times where there’s nothing.
> This is sometimes difficult to understand with people who have been to university and always had food on the table but it’s fucking dangerous.


Exactly why this needs not to be 'black vs white'. Luckily it isn't. And yes, I do actually agree that the phrase 'white privilege' is often not helpful, partly because it can be misunderstood and partly because if you're going down that road, there are lots and lots of 'privileges' that people can have or not have.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 17, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> It was on the last page, just above your posts.
> 
> ETA, sorry, the last page was the OFCOM conclusion, which is the most important one.


The post above my comments has nothing to do with OFCOM or ITV statement, so I am not sure what you are on about. 

I was merely sharing something I saw on twitter, because it was relevant to this thread.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 17, 2020)

A big part of the power sharing in the USA seems to be the Republican party aiming for the white working class and the Democrat party aiming for the POC working class. 
I think that the anger at the Democrats for doing that is really underestimated, not because of racism because they are meant to represent something better. 
The left is against fascism and privilege so we are harder to placate. it's not enough to have a BLM dance routine and clapping pots outside for the NHS, that is crumbs from the table not a place at the table


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 17, 2020)

kabbes said:


> In terms of asking, “how can somebody hate this thing I love?”, it’s always worth reflecting that the features which inspired you to love it might be the very same ones that inspire somebody else to hate it.  The opposite of love is not hate, it’s apathy.  If something provokes a reaction, there’s no reason to expect it to be the same reaction in everybody.


I don't think anyone is saying that. The thread isn't about love and hate. I don't expect people to like/enjoy everything that I like/enjoy. 

What mystifies me is why anyone would complain about this dance. And I mean anyone.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> I think some people find your class analysis reductive and crude.



But they would. Wouldn’t they?


----------



## kabbes (Sep 17, 2020)

Guineveretoo said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that. The thread isn't about love and hate. I don't expect people to like/enjoy everything that I like/enjoy.
> 
> What mystifies me is why anyone would complain about this dance. And I mean anyone.


It provoked a strong reaction in you.  Why would it not in others?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Sep 17, 2020)

Guineveretoo said:


> The post above my comments has nothing to do with OFCOM or ITV statement, so I am not sure what you are on about.



I said it was just above your posts, not in the actual post just above, sorry if you missed it & can't scroll back four posts, so I'll quote it for you.



skyscraper101 said:


> Ofcom have called bullshit on the complaints.




The ITV statement is 2 days old, and released before the OFCOM ruling.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> The ITV statement is 2 days old, and released before the OFCOM ruling.



Seems a bit disingenuous to pretend there was no “explicit reference to any particular political organisation”, but hey ho, was good that they stood up for it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It provoked a strong reaction in you.  Why would it not in others?



Apathy leads people to switch off or over, or keep scrolling online.
It's definitely a 'strong reaction' that leads people to complain to ITV and Ofcom.

Personally I think the mass complaining about this was an orchestrated thing probably promoted on Parler or Reddit.

Amazing really because the people I see the most on SM demanding an end to 'cancel culture' when people call out bigots or objectionable behaviour are pretty much the same people who would take their time to promote a mass 'cancelling' like this, retweeting Lozza Bellend Fox, campaigning to keep singing Rule Britannia at _The Proms_ they've never watched and calling Jim Davidson a 'legend' on account of him still being a racist fuckwit.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Personally I think the mass complaining about this was an orchestrated thing probably promoted on Parler or Reddit.



With most of the complaints coming in days after the initial flurry, I’d say you’re bang on the money there.


----------



## strung out (Sep 17, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Apathy leads people to switch off or over, or keep scrolling online.
> It's definitely a 'strong reaction' that leads people to complain to ITV and Ofcom.
> 
> Personally I think the mass complaining about this was an orchestrated thing probably promoted on Parler or Reddit.
> ...


More likely Facebook or Twitter than Reddit.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 17, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> I said it was just above your posts, not in the actual post just above, sorry if you missed it & can't scroll back four posts, so I'll quote it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> The ITV statement is 2 days old, and released before the OFCOM ruling.


Oh, I can't read twitter posts that are embedded on here because of my settings.

So I hadn't seen it at all.

But it certainly wasn't just above my post. On my computer, anyway. 

Sorry for offending you by inadvertently putting up a statement that everyone had seen and which was a couple of days old!  I can't say I won't do it again because I am sure I will.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2020)

strung out said:


> More likely Facebook or Twitter than Reddit.



You could be right, I referred to Reddit because I have seen some god awful shit/targeted stuff being promoted there. The important part of my point was the fact I believe it was orchestrated and promoted. It was a deliberate thing rather than all those people/viewers being 'outraged' independently.


----------



## strung out (Sep 17, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> You could be right, I referred to Reddit because I have seen some god awful shit/targeted stuff being promoted there. The important part of my point was the fact I believe it was orchestrated and promoted. It was a deliberate thing rather than all those people/viewers being 'outraged' independently.


Completely agree, I just think people have this weird opinion of Reddit, when the same (often far worse) stuff is going on on more popular platforms we use every day.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2020)

strung out said:


> Completely agree, I just think people have this weird opinion of Reddit, when the same (often far worse) stuff is going on on more popular platforms we use every day.



LOL I wasn't hating on Reddit in particular. 😂👍🏽


----------



## killer b (Sep 17, 2020)

strung out said:


> Completely agree, I just think people have this weird opinion of Reddit, when the same (often far worse) stuff is going on on more popular platforms we use every day.


there are right-wing meme groups on facebook that dwarf the membership of minor sites like Parler, and are a much more significant driver of mass campaigns like this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I find it odd that BLM was born in the US and spread to the UK some 4,000+ miles away yet the same concern has never been considered for those living in eg Equatorial Guinea. It’s almost as if black lives don’t matter at all unless there’s a racially divisive angle to be gained by those seeking it.


This isn't the first iteration of BLM in the UK. And obvs in countries where you have a predominantly white police force being systematically racist to bame people and black lives are devalued it's going to be different to eg. I think you're seeing this from the wrong end of the telescope, because until black lives matter as much as white in the UK all lives as I said above are undervalued - just as until all prisoners are free we are all imprisoned


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

strung out said:


> Completely agree, I just think people have this weird opinion of Reddit, when the same (often far worse) stuff is going on on more popular platforms we use every day.



I guess if you’re on Fb or Twitter, the filters shield you from that kind of shit, whereas Reddit is more haphazard in terms of where you end up, so it seems more visible.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> This isn't the first iteration of BLM in the UK. And obvs in countries where you have a predominantly white police force being systematically racist to bame people and black lives are devalued it's going to be different to eg. I think you're seeing this from the wrong end of the telescope, because until black lives matter as much as white in the UK all lives as I said above are undervalued - just as until all prisoners are free we are all imprisoned



I agree with all of that mate it’s the liberal ‘white privilege’ shit that boils my piss. Which is clearly the liberal idpol narrative kicking into action. And how does that aid a wc counter power? They may as well be the edl.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> A leader of BLM in America was interviewed on Fox News where he stated that they (BLM) would burn down the system if they didn’t get what they wanted (or words to similar effect).
> 
> Ive now seen criticism of BLM portraying them as a Marxist group.



I'll just bet you have.

You've learnt that linking to your far right sites doesn't fly here and are now reduced to sketchy commentary on them. 

The system does need dismantling, and even if BLM was a Marxist group, well, so fucking what?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> I guess if you’re on Fb or Twitter, the filters shield you from that kind of shit, whereas Reddit is more haphazard in terms of where you end up, so it seems more visible.



Good points. I never see any of it unless I go looking for it or someone I am linked to deliberately exposes it by sharing or retweeting it. It's like an alternative reality in that regard.


----------



## Athos (Sep 17, 2020)

belboid said:


> Your position is to weaken the current movement, those who find it contentious are either reactionaries are largely passive commentators.  Neither are of much use in building a movement that will actually fight racism.  Jolly interesting dinner party discussions though.



I've been on more than one BLM-led protest (as well as many other anti-racism activities, going back years).   Agreeing with a movement's core goal doesn't mean you must think it's 100% right about everything, or that you shouldn't voice that disagreement, or that by doing so you weaken the movement.  But intersting that your frame of reference is dinner parties.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 17, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Good points. I never see any of it unless I go looking for it or someone I am linked to deliberately exposes it by sharing or retweeting it. It's like an alternative reality in that regard.



Yeah, everything is viewed through these prisms they build for you.

I’m undecided over whether it would be better to see the full horror of the cesspit or not.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree with all of that mate it’s the liberal ‘white privilege’ shit that boils my piss. Which is clearly the liberal idpol narrative kicking into action. And how does that aid a wc counter power? They may as well be the edl.



White privilege is a reality. It's being able to go into a Starbucks without the cops being called on you, being able to go to the park without the cops being called out, being able to walk down the road, and have the cops called simply because you're black.

The "Karens" who are doing all the cop calling are white, and the victims are black.

It may well boil your piss, but that's actual racism being played out, daily.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Yeah, everything is viewed through these prisms they build for you.
> 
> I’m undecided over whether it would be better to see the full horror of the cesspit or not.


I ask myself similar to be honest. I've decided that I am gonna treat it like I treat other parts of my life...we all make choices about the friends we have, what publications we read, what kind of events we are interested in etc. I go looking for it when I feel I need to, when it serves a purpose.

Plus interacting with it all the time causes anxiety, anger and stress which I need to control for obvious reasons. I already have to deal with some of the shitty parts of life and the failings of the system through my work so I need some off time to recover from that and actually enjoy being alive sometimes.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> White privilege is a reality. It's being able to go into a Starbucks without the cops being called on you, being able to go to the park without the cops being called out, being able to walk down the road, and have the cops called simply because you're black.
> 
> The "Karens" who are doing all the cop calling are white, and the victims are black.
> 
> It may well boil your piss, but that's actual racism being played out, daily.



Funny that you never offered the same considerations for NI Catholics.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Funny that you never offered the same considerations for NI Catholics.



BBC Voice:
* other forms of discrimination are available *

It's not either/or. The discrimination against catholics in NI falls very much into the same box.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Funny that you never offered the same considerations for NI Catholics.



And just what has this whiffy beefy bullshit got to do with the topic?


----------



## freakydave (Sep 17, 2020)

8ball said:


> Yeah, everything is viewed through these prisms they build for you.
> 
> I’m undecided over whether it would be better to see the full horror of the cesspit or not.



The popularisation of this stuff is a result of the filters. The social media platforms are set up to garner attention and reward attention seeking. If there were some way to make these things reward good points and intelligent debate then it would be a great thing to have these platforms controlled by algorithms, but it is nowhere near that level of advanced. We'd absolutely be better off not seeing stuff through these filters, I was into 4Chan as a teenager and it was barely filtered and rightly so most people hated it because it was so full of mental illness, the culture now has made the same mental illness filtered and acceptable.


----------



## weltweit (Sep 17, 2020)

Well I thought it was good.

No complaints from me.


----------



## cyril_smear (Sep 17, 2020)

Petcha said:


> I saw Piers Morgan the other morning in reference to this, pointing out that a good number of the people who have complained to Ofcom about his bollocking of tory ministers during the pandemic hadn't actually watched the interviews. Ss he said, its quite probable a lot of the numbskulls who bothered to complain about this performance didn't actually see it.


I don't think piers has interviewed any tory ministers during the pandemic.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> I don't think piers has interviewed any tory ministers during the pandemic.



He did until they started boycotting GMB because of his hectoring interviewing style.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 17, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> A leader of BLM in America was interviewed on Fox News where he stated that they (BLM) would burn down the system if they didn’t get what they wanted (or words to similar effect).
> 
> Ive now seen criticism of BLM portraying them as a Marxist group.



Fuck off Marty1


----------



## cyril_smear (Sep 17, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> He did until they started boycotting GMB because of his hectoring interviewing style.


I'm surprised anybody with any kind of clout would agree to be "interviewed" by him.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 17, 2020)

_Sigh_


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 17, 2020)

cyril_smear said:


> I'm surprised anybody with any kind of clout would agree to be "interviewed" by him.



It's the GMB audience they want access to, the interviewer is secondary.


----------



## cyril_smear (Sep 17, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> It's the GMB audience they want access to, the interviewer is secondary.


Ye I get that. But as you alluded to, you don't go on GMB and not end up looking like silly. 

I won't complain about piers moron losing viewers, it might get him off the television.


----------



## Shechemite (Sep 17, 2020)

ska invita said:


> sounds a lot like your saying people standing up against the racism they experience are only making it worse for themselves because racists are wrongly interpreting it as being "AGAINST white identity/culture".



‘White lives don’t matter’. ‘We don’t want to kill Whitey yes we do (snigger)’ etc. 

This stuff does give fuel to white idpol doesn’t it


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2020)

freakydave said:


> I was into 4Chan as a teenager and it was barely filtered and rightly so most people hated it because it was so full of mental illness, the culture now has made the same mental illness filtered and acceptable.



Never delved into 4Chan, can you explain what you're referring to when you say mental illness?


----------



## freakydave (Sep 17, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Never delved into 4Chan, can you explain what you're referring to when you say mental illness?



4Chan was a board like this except that you didn't have to register to post so nobody could be banned

It was mostly dark jokes, but there was also a lot of Nazi and paedophile stuff, and just generally dysfunctional people. It's where that Anonymous movement came from and it evolved into all kinds of weird stuff

There is a guy called Dale Beran who was really into it and has written and talked about it quite a lot, I'd recommend watching his TED talks or reading his articles about it


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 17, 2020)

freakydave said:


> 4Chan was a board like this except that you didn't have to register to post so nobody could be banned
> 
> It was mostly dark jokes, but there was also a lot of Nazi and paedophile stuff, and just generally dysfunctional people. It's where that Anonymous movement came from and it evolved into all kinds of weird stuff
> 
> There is a guy called Dale Beran who was really into it and has written and talked about it quite a lot, I'd recommend watching his TED talks or reading his articles about it



Sounds ugly, think I'll give it a hard pass, ta.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 17, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Sounds ugly, think I'll give it a hard pass, ta.



It was ugly but it had some of that idealism that the first version of the internet had, the idea of decentralisation and freedom. I don't know what it's like nowadays, but it is an incredibly important part of how we got to where we are


----------



## belboid (Sep 17, 2020)

Athos said:


> I've been on more than one BLM-led protest (as well as many other anti-racism activities, going back years).   Agreeing with a movement's core goal doesn't mean you must think it's 100% right about everything, or that you shouldn't voice that disagreement, or that by doing so you weaken the movement.  But intersting that your frame of reference is dinner parties.


If you’ve been on the demos you’ll have seen that they are the biggest anti-racism demos in decades.   That they have been the most militant in decades and they have actually led to a mainstream discussion about racism, empire and class.   All under this supposedly weak and divisive slogan.   I’d be intrigued to hear your improved suggestion.  

Would you have similarly objected to ‘bread peace and land’ because it excluded coeliacs and didn’t explicitly mention class?


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 18, 2020)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree with all of that mate it’s the liberal ‘white privilege’ shit that boils my piss. Which is clearly the liberal idpol narrative kicking into action. And how does that aid a wc counter power? They may as well be the edl.


 
Yes, the proletariat is all races and ethnicities - all exploited by capitalism.  Dividing the proletariat via white privilege can only hinder cross- racial solidarity against its oppressors.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yes, the proletariat is all races and ethnicities - all exploited by capitalism.  Dividing the proletariat via white privilege can only hinder cross- racial solidarity against its oppressors.



So in the meantime, what would you like black people to do? Accept the way things are?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> So in the meantime, what would you like black people to do? Accept the way things are?



I’d expect conservative black people to actively support the way things are.  Words meaning what they do and that...


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

belboid said:


> If you’ve been on the demos you’ll have seen that they are the biggest anti-racism demos in decades.   That they have been the most militant in decades and they have actually led to a mainstream discussion about racism, empire and class.   All under this supposedly weak and divisive slogan.   I’d be intrigued to hear your improved suggestion.
> 
> Would you have similarly objected to ‘bread peace and land’ because it excluded coeliacs and didn’t explicitly mention class?



Yes, I think the movement, whilst not perfect, has done a great deal of good.  And I'm pleased it hasn't disappeared down the idpol rabbit hole I feared it would at the very beginning. 

To me, the weakness of the slogan isn't that it doesn't mention class (or coeliacs - that was quite witty for you), but that it lends itself to the obvious "all lives matter", "white lives matter, too" etc. response we've seen.  Like it or not, the right have exploited that to undermine class solidarity, causing a significant number of white would-be comrades to fear (wrongly, of course) it's an anti-white movement.

I've not given a lot of thought to an alternative name. Though I guess I'd go for something that expresses solidarity, is explicitly anti-racist, and alludes to the fact that there are other stands of the struggle.  Just off the top of my head, something like 'Together Against Racism'.  With other protests under the 'Together' banner being e.g. '... for the Environment', '... Against Cuts', or '... Against Sexism'.  Clearly situating anti- racism as part of a broader left movement, and building inclusive networks rather than single-issue silos.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Yes, I think the movement, whilst not perfect, has done a great deal of good.  And I'm pleased it hasn't disappeared down the idpol rabbit hole I feared it would at the very beginning.
> 
> To me, the weakness of the slogan isn't that it doesn't mention class (or coeliacs - that was quite witty for you), but that it lends itself to the obvious "all lives matter", "white lives matter, too" etc. response we've seen.  Like it or not, the right have exploited that to undermine class solidarity, causing a significant number of white would-be comrades to fear (wrongly, of course) it's an anti-white movement.
> 
> I've not given a lot of thought to an alternative name. Though I guess I'd go for something that expresses solidarity, is explicitly anti-racist, and alludes to the fact that there are other stands of the struggle.  Just off the top of my head, something like 'Together Against Racism'.  With other protests under the 'Together' banner being e.g. '... for the Environment', '... Against Cuts', or '... Against Sexism'.  Clearly situating anti- racism as part of a broader left movement, and building inclusive networks rather than single-issue silos.



#workers of the world unite


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> #workers of the world unite



I have to admit that was my first thought!  But it has some 'issues.'


----------



## ska invita (Sep 18, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> ‘White lives don’t matter’. ‘We don’t want to kill Whitey yes we do (snigger)’ etc.
> This stuff does give fuel to white idpol doesn’t it


I've no idea what you're talking about. Was this some follow up freestyle dance routine?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Though I guess I'd go for something that expresses solidarity, is explicitly anti-racist, and alludes to the fact that there are other stands of the struggle.  Just off the top of my head, something like 'Together Against Racism'.


That acronym is most unfortunate, easily exploitable by racists especially in the USA and the right wing media


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

S☼I said:


> That acronym is most unfortunate, easily exploitable by racists especially in the USA and the right wing media



Fair point. As I said, I only have it a few minutes thought. Maybe something like 'Together Opposing Racism', then?


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I've no idea what you're talking about. Was this some follow up freestyle dance routine?


An academic tweeted that white lives don't matter (she meant 'as white lives' i.e. that whiteness should be abolished), and a comedian on the BBC joke about killing whitey not being the meaning of BLM (with an obviously comic aside that it was really).  Both of which have been a gift to the right (which has affected outrage and deliberately misinterpreted) in portraying BLM as anti-white.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Fair point. As I said, I only have it a few minutes thought. Maybe something like 'Together Opposing Racism', then?


Clunky

Movements such as this, it's like band names; beyond a certain point of recognition it doesn't really matter about the name, more the aim. People opposed to it will always find a way to discredit. Like it or not, Black Lives Matter has become incredibly well-known the last year or so.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> An academic tweeted that white lives don't matter (she meant 'as white lives' i.e. that whiteness should be abolished), and a comedian on the BBC joke about killing whitey not being the meaning of BLM (with an obviously comic aside that it was really).  Both of which have been a gift to the right (which has affected outrage and deliberately misinterpreted) in portraying BLM as anti-white.


Somebody tweeted something!! OMG . I take everything i said back


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Clunky
> 
> Movements such as this, it's like band names; beyond a certain point of recognition it doesn't really matter about the name, more the aim. People opposed to it will always find a way to discredit. Like it or not, Black Lives Matter has become incredibly well-known the last year or so.



I do like it (the movement); just wish the name didn't offer an easy target to opponents.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 18, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Why should Black people have to find terms to describe systemic racism that are more palatable for white people?



Indeed. What they really need is white people telling them how to organize protests, what slogans to use and the exact parameters of said protests. That's where they've been going wrong all this time.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Somebody tweeted something!! OMG . I take everything i said back


The trouble is, as ridiculous as it is, that's how a lot of this shit spreads.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Indeed. What they really need is white people telling them how to organize protests, what slogans to use and the exact parameters of said protests. That's where they've been going wrong all this time.



Black people don't need white people telling them what to do. But it's hard to see how anti-racism can succeed without the involvement of white people (if only at the level of them not being racist).


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> I have to admit that was my first thought!  But it has some 'issues.'



It does always feel to me that we are dodging around the issue of class consciousness by pointing out the racism and sexism and so on that is embedded in capitalism. It relies on this assumption that capitalism can be fixed and we will all benefit once it's extended to the people who are not rich, but we have known that this is not true for such a long time.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> It does always feel to me that we are dodging around the issue of class consciousness by pointing out the racism and sexism and so on that is embedded in capitalism. It relies on this assumption that capitalism can be fixed and we will all benefit once it's extended to the people who are not rich, but we have known that this is not true for such a long time.



In fairness to BLM it is explicitly anti-capitalist.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> In fairness to BLM it is explicitly anti-capitalist.



Well the idea of race is bullshit though. BLM is multi racial. For Americans, what about the Hispanics and the Chinese and the Indians and the Arabs and the Hillbillies and so on. It's not the right slogan


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> Well the idea of race is bullshit though.



Yes, but that doesn't make racism any less real.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> The trouble is, as ridiculous as it is, that's how a lot of this shit spreads.


Come on Athos, theres millions of people support BLM around the world - many of them have Twitter accounts. One awkward tweet jumped on by cunts does not a substantial criticism of the principles of BLM make. Ridiculous we are even talking about this.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Fair point. As I said, I only have it a few minutes thought. Maybe something like 'Together Opposing Racism', then?


It’s terrible because it has no meaning beyond being a vague, aspirational idea.  “Racism” is defined differently by every person you meet, and its definition is almost always such that it excludes the definer (except in cases where they want to self-identify as racist).  So people can shout it and all mean something different by it and nobody needs to change anything.

By contrast, “Black Lives Matter” is a highly specific, meaningful slogan.  It doesn’t ask for aspirational ideals.  It just states a quantifiable fact. You either agree with the statement, in which it is a rallying cry, or you don’t.  And if you don’t, it asks uncomfortable questions as to why.

It is true that people are self-obsessed and solipsistic, which makes a lot of them whine “but what about meeeeeeee?  What about if myyyyyy life matters?” And that in itself has been a fantastic way to illustrate just how atomised and selfish this society actually is.  I’m fine with that.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Come on Athos, theres millions of people support BLM around the world - many of them have Twitter accounts. One awkward tweet jumped on by cunts does not a substantial criticism of the principles of BLM make. Ridiculous we are even talking about this.



I'm not arguing it does.  You didn't understand the reference in another poster's comment, so I explained it to you.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Yes, but that doesn't make racism any less real.



But we are talking about something to build around. Let them have racism, it is their game, we won't ever win


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It’s terrible because it has no meaning beyond being a vague, aspirational idea.



Slogans don't tend to capture nuance. It'd need building on with a detailed platform (as BLM has).




kabbes said:


> “Racism” is defined differently by every person you meet, and its definition is almost always such that it excludes the definer (except in cases where they want to self-identify as racist).



That's also a strength, insofar as everyone can get behind it.




kabbes said:


> So people can shout it and all mean something different by it and nobody needs to change anything.



Obviously, the movement would be much more than a slogan (as BLM does).




kabbes said:


> By contrast, “Black Lives Matter” is a highly specific, meaningful slogan.  It doesn’t ask for aspirational ideals.  It just states a quantifiable fact. You either agree with the statement, in which it is a rallying cry, or you don’t.  And if you don’t, it asks uncomfortable questions as to why.



That ought to be true. But we see people who agree with the literal statement, but who are put off by what they interpret it to mean (or are told it means).




kabbes said:


> It is true that people are self-obsessed and solipsistic, which makes a lot of them whine “but what about meeeeeeee?  What about if myyyyyy life matters?” And that in itself has been a fantastic way to illustrate just how atomised and selfish this society actually is.  I’m fine with that.



There's certainly some value in that. But it does have the downsides I've mentioned.

I'm not saying what I came up with of the top of my head is perfect, but this whole thing came up in response to a the claim that the name 'Black Lives Matters' isn't divisive; it clearly is, notwithstanding nobody here thinks it should be.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> But we are talking about something to build around. Let them have racism, it is their game, we won't ever win



I think anti-racism needs to be an explicit strand of what we build.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos, I’m guessing you’ve never built a slogan that’s inspired a movement.  Maybe learn from what has proven to have worked rather than insist you would do it better


----------



## maomao (Sep 18, 2020)

Millions of working class people on the steets in the largest protest movement of my lifetime, the US on the brink of civil war and we're moaning about the name. Like it or not it's the most succesful name of a protest movement ever. And anyone who can't handle the idea that white lives already matter is probably on the wrong side anyway.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

maomao said:


> Millions of working class people on the steets in the largest protest movement of my lifetime, the US on the brink of civil war and we're moaning about the name. Like it or not it's the most succesful name of a protest movement ever. And anyone who can't handle the idea that white lives already matter is probably on the wrong side anyway.



the same is true for QAnon though.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Athos, I’m guessing you’ve never built a slogan that’s inspired a movement.  Maybe learn from what has proven to have worked rather than insist you would do it better



I'm not insisting I would do better; I only posited an alternative because I was asked to.  I agree that the movement has mobilised many, but the name has offered the opportunity for others to polarise the issue - becoming a fault line in the culture war.  Only time will tell whether it has worked (needless to say, I hope it does).


----------



## two sheds (Sep 18, 2020)

I wondered about Black Lives Matter Too, but no doubt that would get similar criticisms.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Make America Fabulous Again


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> I'm not insisting I would do better; I only posited an alternative because I was asked to.  I agree that the movement has mobilised many, but the name has offered the opportunity for others to polarise the issue - becoming a fault line in the culture war.  Only time will tell whether it has worked (needless to say, I hope it does).


The slogan has already worked.  It has captured the imagination of hundreds of millions of people.  What those people do next — well, a slogan can’t achieve everything.  What happens next is up to those who are involved within the movement.  But that in no way detracts from the success of the slogan.

It’s a punchy, unambiguous and yet confrontational statement of fact.  I don’t think it is any surprise that it would have been the winner in the Darwinian battle of hashtags.


----------



## maomao (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> confrontational statement of fact.


I always understood it as intentionally confrontational. It starts a conversation/argument in a way that a name like Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament can't.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

maomao said:


> I always understood it as intentionally confrontational. It starts a conversation/argument in a way that a name like Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament can't.


Right.  If it isn’t clear, that’s the point I was also trying to make


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> The slogan has already worked.  It has captured the imagination of hundreds of millions of people.



I think we'll have to agree to disagree about what success looks like.  The Stop The War Coalition mobilised millions to march, but it wasn't a success insofar as it didn't stop the war.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> I think we'll have to agree to disagree about what success looks like.  The Stop The War Coalition mobilised millions to march, but it wasn't a success insofar as it didn't stop the war.


What is the purpose of a slogan if not to gather millions to its cause?  The slogan is not the manifesto, nor is it the action.  It’s just a rallying cry.

“Stop The War” was another successful slogan, for similar reasons of being specific and confrontational.  It successfully caused millions to march.  The march was not successful but the slogan was.


----------



## maomao (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> the same is true for QAnon though.


That's a great name for what it is.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> What is the purpose of a slogan if not to gather millions to its cause?  The slogan is not the manifesto, nor is it the action.  It’s just a rallying cry.
> 
> “Stop The War” was another successful slogan, for similar reasons of being specific and confrontational.  It successfully caused millions to march.  The march was not successful but the slogan was.



Then we do have a different idea of success; I won't consider BLM (as a movement) a success if millions protest but nothing changes (notwithstanding the mass appeal of 'black lives matter' as a slogan).


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Then we do have a different idea of success; I won't consider BLM (as a movement) a success if millions protest but nothing changes (notwithstanding the mass appeal of 'black lives matter' as a slogan).


It’s not the movement you were raising issue with though, when I responded.  It was the slogan itself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Then we do have a different idea of success; I won't consider BLM (as a movement) a success if millions protest but nothing changes (notwithstanding the mass appeal of 'black lives matter' as a slogan).


How much change would you consider a success?


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It’s not the movement you were raising issue with though, when I responded.  It was the slogan itself.



The point is that, for me, the slogan has no value independent of the movement.  Absent and way of measuring the extent to which the slogan helps or hinders the movement in achieving its aims (and I'm sure it does both), we can only use the success of the movement to measure the success of the slogan.  And only time will tell.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> How much change would you consider a success?



84.6%


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> 84.6%


I'll take that as a no then


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

“Absent a way of measuring how the slogan helps”?  Other than the fact that it has gathered hundreds of millions of people to take action under its name, you mean?


----------



## maomao (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> “Absent a way of measuring how the slogan helps”?  Other than the fact that it has gathered hundreds of millions of people to take action under its name, you mean?


Ah, but if they'd called themselves Together Opposing Racism they would have ended racism by now.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> “Absent a way of measuring how the slogan helps”?  Other than the fact that it has gathered hundreds of millions of people to take action under its name, you mean?


Which isn't an end in itself (see STWC).  I think we might need to agree to disagree, as we're beginning to go round in circles.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

maomao said:


> Ah, but if they'd called themselves Together Opposing Racism they would have ended racism by now.





Nobody is suggesting that, though. Merely that, whilst the movement is a positive thing, it does have some weaknesses.  One is that it's name, whilst having some advantages, offers an easy opportunity for those who want to mischaracterise it.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

Understanding the limitations of what can be communicated through any three word phrase is not the same thing as saying that there aren’t success measures for that three word phrase.  The point of a slogan isn’t to be the strategy, it’s just to gather people together under an idea.  That’s the way you judge its success or not.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Understanding the limitations of what can be communicated through any three word phrase is not the same thing as saying that there aren’t success measures for that three word phrase.  The point of a slogan isn’t to be the strategy, it’s just to gather people together under an idea.  That’s the way you judge its success or not.



As I said, we can agree to disagree.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2020)

'agreeing to disagree' is just what people say when they can't bring themselves to recognise they've been totally schooled isn't it?


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> 'agreeing to disagree' is just what people say when they can't bring themselves to recognise they've been totally schooled isn't it?



No.  Its what people say when they realise they're going round and round.  Of course it's a success when you choose a measure of success it fulfils rather than one it doesn't (and overlook unintended negative consequences and the possibility that other slogans might have fared equally well).


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2020)

Maybe Black Lives Matter should change their slogan to 'Lets Agree To Disagree' - something everyone could get behind.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> Maybe Black Lives Matter should change their slogan to 'Lets Agree To Disagree' - something everyone could get behind.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> Its what people say when they realise they're going round and round


Dude, you're happy to go round and round for days - weeks - on end. It's your 'thing'.


----------



## A380 (Sep 18, 2020)

Ofcom To Recycle All 24,000 BGT Complaints Into Gammon Angerw*nk Tissues
					

Read More ...




					southendnewsnetwork.net


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> Dude, you're happy to go round and round for days - weeks - on end. It's your 'thing'.



Not today, you'll be disappointed to learn - things to do. In any event, the point i.e. that the name/slogan has disadvantages - that it has been the focus of pushback against the movement is undeniable - has been made, there's not really much to add.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2020)

I'm not disappointed.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> I'm not disappointed.


I'm glad I continue to please you.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 18, 2020)

maomao said:


> Ah, but if they'd called themselves Together Opposing Racism they would have ended racism by now.


No, it's not that, it's that racists wouldn't have a problem with it, wouldnt have called in to ITV, and wouldn't feel like it was an attack on white racism. Obvs.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> No, it's not that, it's that racists wouldn't have a problem with it, wouldnt have called in to ITV, and wouldn't feel like it was an attack on white racism.



It's not that black and white (pun intended). There's loads of white working class people who aren't racist but who have come to believe that BLM isn't for them.  Which is a shame, and something that a different name might have avoided.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2020)

_things to do_


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

killer b said:


> _things to do_



Yep. I really gotta go, now.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> It's not that black and white (pun intended). There's loads of white working class people who aren't racist but who have come to believe that BLM isn't for them.  Which is a shame, and something that a different name might have avoided.



Hard to say what would have happened otherwise.  It’s certainly a punchy name.  (“Punchy” in a good sense)

Regardless of name, it would have been attacked hard as soon as it was seen to be gaining traction.


----------



## killer b (Sep 18, 2020)

I reckon you can fit at least one more go round in before you head off.


----------



## belboid (Sep 18, 2020)

I must admit I did not expect Athos to admit to being a wet liberal quite some easily.

together against racism is, incidentally, the name of an EEA programme to stop anti- Roma discrimination.  Been reet popular and successful, clearly.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 18, 2020)

Athos said:


> It's not that black and white (pun intended). There's loads of white working class people who aren't racist but who have come to believe that BLM isn't for them.  Which is a shame, and something that a different name might have avoided.


I understand the point. It's pretty much disproven though by the historic, huge amount of white solidarity BLM has inspired, and the mainstreaming into Saturday night entertainment programs.

If there are "white working class people who aren't racist but who have come to believe that BLM isn't for them" that does need digging in to. Just as it does with why socialist politics in general aren't for them. IMO the name BLM is bottom of the list of reasons, just behind Corbyns cut of suit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

BLM is a brilliant slogan. The fact it has made some people uncomfortable is one of its strengths. It's supposed to be a challenge to the world, in the manner of Primo Levi's If this is a man. They're not organising a village fete.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> BLM is a brilliant slogan. The fact it has made some people uncomfortable is one of its strengths. It's supposed to be a challenge to the world, in the manner of Primo Levi's If this is a man. They're not organising a village fete.



On the original topic of this thread I am going to for what it's worth completely agree with you and I this discussion really has changed my mind. I still have reservations about the whole movement because of what people have said much more cogently than me, racism is such a huge topic that we also need to be careful in fighting against it not to misstep. But to put a piece of performance art like that on television when they know that it is going to upset people is something that I am 100% behind. People should be upset that we live in racist countries, we all suffer because of it


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I understand the point. It's pretty much disproven though by the historic, huge amount of white solidarity BLM has inspired, and the mainstreaming into Saturday night entertainment programs.
> 
> If there are "white working class people who aren't racist but who have come to believe that BLM isn't for them" that does need digging in to. Just as it does with why socialist politics in general aren't for them. IMO the name BLM is bottom of the list of reasons, just behind Corbyns cut of suit.



It certainly has the support of white liberals (who control ITV's output), but disappointing levels of support amongst non-racist white working class people (particularly outside London), in my experience.  From speaking to people, I know many are put off (in part at least) by the name (or, more accurately, what the right have been able to suggest the name means).  But I agree that's not the biggest issue; I've never thought that - I wouldn't die in a ditch over changing the name.  I think a much bigger issue is how tied up it is with ideas like white privilege.  That's a useful concept when applied thoughtfully, but many working class people understandably bristle at being told they're privileged by middle class liberals.


----------



## belboid (Sep 18, 2020)

If you know people who are put off by the name, the people you know are wankers.  Now do yourself a favour and stop digging.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I understand the point. It's pretty much disproven though by the historic, huge amount of white solidarity BLM has inspired, and the mainstreaming into Saturday night entertainment programs.
> 
> If there are "white working class people who aren't racist but who have come to believe that BLM isn't for them" that does need digging in to. Just as it does with why socialist politics in general aren't for them. IMO the name BLM is bottom of the list of reasons, just behind Corbyns cut of suit.



Well for me personally the big reservation that I have about it is that there are just not that many black people where I came from. Lots of Indians and Pakistanis and quite a few Chinese and Europeans, but we were too poor to get black people.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

belboid said:


> If you know people who are put off by the name, the people you know are wankers.  Now do yourself a favour and stop digging.



Possibly some of them are.  Others aren't, but maybe they're are naive/gullible/ignorant.  There's certainly plenty of them.


----------



## kabbes (Sep 18, 2020)

They’re either wankers or whiners, certainly.  “What about myyyyyy life?  Why isn’t this all about meeeeeee?”


----------



## SlideshowBob (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> BLM is a brilliant slogan. The fact it has made some people uncomfortable is one of its strengths. It's supposed to be a challenge to the world, in the manner of Primo Levi's If this is a man. They're not organising a village fete.



Indeed, a lot of people like the abstract idea of tackling racial inequality but quickly seem to become offended or uncomfortable when they're actually confronted with the impact of it in a direct and visceral way.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> They’re either wankers or whiners, certainly.  “What about myyyyyy life?  Why isn’t this all about meeeeeee?”



That is facile though. yes the world is full of morons and wankers and whiners, that doesn't have any meaning. 

What is interesting is that this piece of performance art about racism was broadcasted on public television and generated a load of complaints., probably more positivity.
But there is a sentiment that is interesting about how people are offended by it even though they don't think that they are racist.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> They’re either wankers or whiners, certainly.  “What about myyyyyy life?  Why isn’t this all about meeeeeee?”


For most, I don't think they want it to be about them.  Rather they feel that it's just not something for them to get involved with, despite the fact they have no truck with racism.  (To be clear, that's not solely becuase of the name.)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> That is facile though. yes the world is full of morons and wankers and whiners, that doesn't have any meaning.
> 
> What is interesting is that this piece of performance art about racism was broadcasted on public television and generated a load of complaints., probably more positivity.
> But there is a sentiment that is interesting about how people are offended by it even though they don't think that they are racist.


No there isn't. You're conflating two things here. What athos is talking about - ie people being put off by the name and thinking it's not for them - is not at all the same as anyone offended by this performance. Let's have some clarity here: anyone actually or pretending to be offended by this can fuck the fuck off, the racist cunts.

Nothing interesting about any of them and their offence-taking. The reasons for it will be all too predictably ignorant and sad and fucked up and hateful and racist.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No there isn't. You're conflating two things here. What athos is talking about - ie people being put off by the name and thinking it's not for them - is not at all the same as anyone offended by this performance. Let's have some clarity here: anyone actually or pretending to be offended by this can fuck the fuck off, the racist cunts.



To take their side, people watch something like Britain Has Talent because they know that it's mindless and they want to see Ant n Dec gurning and people singing rubbish songs and so on. What they are objecting to is that it's not mindless

There are a lot of people who should be allies who are turned off by the whole 'fuck off' mentality.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> To take their side, people watch something like Britain Has Talent because they know that it's mindless and they want to see Ant n Dec gurning and people singing rubbish songs and so on. What they are objecting to is that it's not mindless
> 
> There are a lot of people who should be allies who are turned off by the whole 'fuck off' mentality.


Did you even read my post. You're talking about people who write in to complain about a dance routine with an anti-racism message on TV. Every single last one of them can fuck off. 

Unlike you, however, I don't think they represent anything other than a very small minority.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did you even read my post. You're talking about people who write in to complain about a dance routine with an anti-racism message on TV. Every single last one of them can fuck off.
> 
> Unlike you, however, I don't think they represent anything other than a very small minority.



I was more on about the sentiment which is a real thing and isn't entirely made up.  Anyone who writes in to Britain's got talent can fuck off, even if they just wanted to say thank you lol

But the complaints are expressing a real thing about how the BLM movement feels alienating to many people who are not racist because of the reasons that this thread has gone into. I don't think that it is a small minority of people at all, it is a tiny minority who are racist, but people who are scared and confused by this stuff are very commonplace


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

As others have said, the numbers and timings involved in these complaints have more than a whiff of a coordinated far-right action. Assuming that to be a reflection of something significant in the wider population is giving these cunts exactly the victory they are after.

Some people need to be persuaded. Others need to be defeated. This group of complainers belong to the second group.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As others have said, the numbers and timings involved in these complaints have more than a whiff of a coordinated far-right action. Assuming that to be a reflection of something significant in the wider population is giving these cunts exactly the victory they are after.



I agree with that but I don't think that it's wrong for people to be confused and scared. That is part of the positive aspects of it, the fact that we live in a racist society is confusing and scary


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> I was more on about the sentiment which is a real thing and isn't entirely made up.  Anyone who writes in to Britain's got talent can fuck off, even if they just wanted to say thank you lol
> 
> But the complaints are expressing a real thing about how the BLM movement feels alienating to many people who are not racist because of the reasons that this thread has gone into. I don't think that it is a small minority of people at all, it is a tiny minority who are racist, but people who are scared and confused by this stuff are very commonplace



Maybe some people watch BGT for entertainment and don’t particularly want political messaging (regardless of the cause) involved?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> Anyone who writes in to Britain's got talent can fuck off, even if they just wanted to say thank you lol


No. 

And with that, I will try to stay away from you. Martycunt's turned up so you can chat with him and the thread can go down the drain.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Maybe some people watch BGT for entertainment and don’t particularly want political messaging (regardless of the cause) involved?



Yes but entertainment is political. The fact that it is supposed to be apolitical and mindless is a political statement, and it seems that people complaining about it was an overtly political statement engineered by right wing interest groups


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No.
> 
> And with that, I will try to stay away from you. Martycunt's turned up so you can chat with him and the thread can go down the drain.



I really appreciate discussion and disagreement with people because I am trying to sort my thinking out. I get that it's annoying because I have similar discussions with people that annoy me but I don't think that any of it is in vain. 

In my defence I do make an effort to be positive because I enjoy the learning but I am aware that often I will talk rubbish and often I don't understand people or they don't understand me


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> Yes but entertainment is political. The fact that it is supposed to be apolitical and mindless is a political statement, and it seems that people complaining about it was an overtly political statement engineered by right wing interest groups



I haven’t been keeping up with this story tbh - is there evidence that these complaints were engineered by right wing interest groups?


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I haven’t been keeping up with this story tbh - is there evidence that these complaints were engineered by right wing interest groups?



There were a couple of hundred when it was broadcast and then the Daily Mail and so on made a big deal out of it and 1000s of people called in to complain 2 days later

It's discussed at around page 2 of this thread haha


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> There were a couple of hundred when it was broadcast and then the Daily Mail and so on made a big deal out of it and 1000s of people called in to complain 2 days later
> 
> It's discussed at around page 2 of this thread haha



So just speculation.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> So just speculation.


But hardly an improbable scenario given the issues.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> So just speculation.


well yes and no. it is not really disputed that the media is engineered for political aims


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

editor said:


> But hardly an improbable scenario given the issues.


More than that, it is something we know can and does happen (and not just done by the right), so the timings are more than suspicious. They stink.

And as I said above, one aim of that would be to produce the impression of a significant number of non-political people being offended by the presence of politics on a game show. Reality being that it is a bunch of _highly_ _political _people stirring shit. It is imperative not to fall into such an obvious trap.


----------



## belboid (Sep 18, 2020)

I don’t think anyone has claimed the complaints were ‘engineered’ - but simply that they were from right wingers who were encouraged by other right wing outrage.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 18, 2020)

editor said:


> But hardly an improbable scenario given the issues.



Yeah, maybe, though I don’t understand what a bunch of racists would be looking to achieve complaining to the broadcaster.  I caught the backend of Radio 1 news yesterday who reported that no action is going to be taken.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

belboid said:


> I don’t think anyone has claimed the complaints were ‘engineered’ - but simply that they were from right wingers who were encouraged by other right wing outrage.


Some, or most, or the vast majority, may well have been engineered to a degree. I wouldn't rule it out, given the timings. Private sections of r/w forums with people talking to each other and encouraging each other to do it. It's exactly the kind of thing we do on here sometimes.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> More than that, it is something we know can and does happen (and not just done by the right), so the timings are more than suspicious. They stink.
> 
> And as I said above, one aim of that would be to produce the impression of a significant number of non-political people being offended by the presence of politics on a game show. Reality being that it is a bunch of _highly_ _political _people stirring shit. It is imperative not to fall into such an obvious trap.



But I do think that it represents a sentiment that is not invented by right wing special interests. People should be scared and confused because it's a very scary and confusing topic.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, maybe, though I don’t understand what a bunch of racists would be looking to achieve complaining to the broadcaster.  I caught the backend of Radio 1 news yesterday who reported that no action is going to be taken.


In order to get twats like you talking on forums about how lots of people don't want to see politics on prime time TV.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, maybe, though I don’t understand what a bunch of racists would be looking to achieve complaining to the broadcaster.  I caught the backend of Radio 1 news yesterday who reported that no action is going to be taken.



The idea is to normalise opposition to BLM. Because 1000s of people called in it marginalises what was a very mainstream piece of art.


----------



## Reno (Sep 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Unlike you, however, I don't think they represent anything other than a very small minority.


The people who bother to officially complain may be a relatively small minority but the large numbers who did complain are a sign that more and more people feel emboldened in making their bigoted views public. The complainers are just the tip of the iceberg.


----------



## Athos (Sep 18, 2020)

It seems to me to proably be a concerted effort by right wingers to object to the content of those politics under the pretext of objecting to any politics being aired in a light entertinment show.


----------



## belboid (Sep 18, 2020)

Reno said:


> The people who bother to officially complain may be a relatively small minority but the large numbers who did complain are a sign that more and more people feel emboldened in making their bigoted views public. The complainers are just the tip of the iceberg.


Sadly, I don’t think there is any doubt about that


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

I do think that there is something that alienates people from BLM that is not just their racism. I can't really express it. I mean, the word is 'alienation' but it is something that I am not going to put my foot in my mouth trying to get to grips with again.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> Well for me personally the big reservation that I have about it is that there are just not that many black people where I came from. Lots of Indians and Pakistanis and quite a few Chinese and Europeans, *but we were too poor to get black people.*



What does this mean?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 18, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> What does this mean?




Good question... Do Black people only live in certain working class but not _'that poor' _communities?  Eh?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> I do think that there is something that alienates people from BLM that is not just their racism. I can't really express it. I mean, the word is 'alienation' but it is something that I am not going to put my foot in my mouth trying to get to grips with again.




Lack of experience, association, Identification? Sense of 'well we all have it shit'? What do you mean I/we work on addressing internalised racism, it's clearly all about class?


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> What does this mean?



It was a throwaway comment.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Lack of experience, association, Identification? Sense of 'well we all have it shit'? What do you mean I/we work on addressing internalised racism, it's clearly all about class?



I think a combination of that. I suppose that class is the best explanation that I can think of. People see something like that where it's these very beautiful and healthy young people with an idea that is dissonant

I personally have a problem with the way that the BLM movement has been transposed from the USA to the UK, they are such different places and of course we can learn from each other and identify with each other, but for me it's the oversimplification that makes me feel uncomfortable. I know that it's repetetive me pointing it out but I am making these arguments in good faith. The opinions that I encounter in real life are very different to what I encounter on here, generally the discussions on here I agree with the overall direction which seems to me to be trying to understand socialism, but it is endless questions

edit: I have gotten in trouble before by making these political things focus on me and it is not my intention. Before getting involved with this thread I did not really even think about what the hell was going on with so many people complaining about this, I know that there are still people who watch telly and even phone up to complain about telly, but the whole thing is something that I try to ignore, I don't think that it's only white people who do that, dark topics are dark


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 18, 2020)

freakydave said:


> It was a throwaway comment.



Elaborate, please.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Elaborate, please.



Where I grew up was pretty poor and sparsely populated, it was mostly just white people whose family hadn't left

I'd really rather not elaborate, it was a stupid comment


----------



## two sheds (Sep 18, 2020)

you've been communing with Marty1 too much


----------



## freakydave (Sep 18, 2020)

two sheds said:


> you've been communing with Marty1 too much


I don't appreciate being classified with him. He seems pretty disingenuous


----------



## two sheds (Sep 18, 2020)

fair play I'll take that back for the while then


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Yeah, maybe, though I don’t understand what a bunch of racists would be looking to achieve complaining to the broadcaster.  I caught the backend of Radio 1 news yesterday who reported that no action is going to be taken.


You can't be this naive, can you?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 19, 2020)

no I don't think he can


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Sep 19, 2020)

Reno said:


> The people who bother to officially complain may be a relatively small minority but the large numbers who did complain are a sign that more and more people feel emboldened in making their bigoted views public. The complainers are just the tip of the iceberg.



Ordinarily, I'd agree that bigots are newly embiggended, but stupid numbers of stupid people complaining about anything just because it's on the telly and it doesn't fit their ignorant worldview is far from a recent thing, and I say that as someone who used to read the Ofcom/ITC complaints bulletins on a regular basis. Remember this lot burning photocopies of their TV licences?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2020)

Only just seen this. Had to see the fuss about it was. What a shitshow. It is cringeingly awful, but I doubt the complaints were about that as those who complained would have been deliberately watching so probably would have known what to expect. I used to work at a tv company and every time anyone from a minority came on, people would moan about it. Racism pure and simple


----------



## freakydave (Sep 19, 2020)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Ordinarily, I'd agree that bigots are newly embiggended, but stupid numbers of stupid people complaining about anything just because it's on the telly and it doesn't fit their ignorant worldview is far from a recent thing, and I say that as someone who used to read the Ofcom/ITC complaints bulletins on a regular basis. Remember this lot burning photocopies of their TV licences?



I like this view a lot more

24000 is a lot of people, but in another way it's not. People generally are good. In a population of 100m they are 0.01% of something, that was was they could muster with organisation


----------



## Reno (Sep 19, 2020)

Nine Bob Note said:


> Ordinarily, I'd agree that bigots are newly embiggended, but stupid numbers of stupid people complaining about anything just because it's on the telly and it doesn't fit their ignorant worldview is far from a recent thing, and I say that as someone who used to read the Ofcom/ITC complaints bulletins on a regular basis. Remember this lot burning photocopies of their TV licences?


I remember the Mary Whitehouse brigade and yes, it was irritating not to be able to watch video nasties uncensored or plays critical of christianity but that was that . By the time the U.K. went for Brexit and foreign friends of mine got told to go back to their country by strangers on the street, as an immigrant myself, I packed my bags and left London after 33 years to move back to Germany. Now you lot got the worst of Covid-19 in Europe because the British voted for a populist, bigoted clown not that different from Trump. How much worse does it have to get for you lot to realise how much trouble your country is in ?


----------



## freakydave (Sep 19, 2020)

the more I think about it the more it is disgusting that something mainstream is marginalised because it doesn't fit in with the current narrative. I think that the right are disgusting acting oppressed because they have no logic left.


Reno said:


> I remember the Mary Whitehouse brigade and yes, it was irritating not to be able to watch video nasties uncensored or plays critical of christianity but that was that . By the time the U.K. went for Brexit and foreign friends of mine got told to go back to their country by strangers on the street, as an immigrant myself, I packed my bags and left London after 33 years to move back to Germany. Now you lot got the worst of Covid-19 in Europe because the British voted for a populist clown. How much worse does it have to get for you lot to realise how much trouble your country is in ?


But we knew this. England used to look up to Germany and France and Italy and Spain the same as you looked up to us, Even Holland lol

Brexit is not just a British thing, Germany, France, Spain, Italy are all as depressing as us from the British perspective.

Brexit is the EU failing not just Britain. I am against Brexit and find it disgusting how it is playing out, but to put it on Britain I don't agree with, France and Germany like Britain fear the vote. 

I would contend that the 2016 dsisaters were about capitalism


----------



## freakydave (Sep 19, 2020)

oh wow. i finally said what i thought. thank you reno you sexy clever man


----------



## Reno (Sep 19, 2020)

freakydave said:


> the more I think about it the more it is disgusting that something mainstream is marginalised because it doesn't fit in with the current narrative. I think that the right are disgusting acting oppressed because they have no logic left.
> 
> But we knew this. England used to look up to Germany and France and Italy and Spain the same as you looked up to us, Even Holland lol
> 
> ...





freakydave said:


> oh wow. i finally said what i thought. thank you reno you sexy clever man


Go to bed


----------



## belboid (Sep 19, 2020)

Reno said:


> I remember the Mary Whitehouse brigade and yes, it was irritating not to be able to watch video nasties uncensored or plays critical of christianity but that was that .


I may be missing your point, but the Mary Whitehouse brigade were about a lot more than video nasties and plays critical of christianity.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 19, 2020)

editor said:


> You can't be this naive, can you?





> Complainants outlined a range of concerns about Diversity’s performance, including that the themes of violence and racism were inappropriate for family viewing



Can you understand parents concerns regarding family viewing, perhaps not suitable for little ones seeing a dancer dressed as a policeman kneeling on someone’s neck?









						Ofcom will not investigate Diversity's BGT performance after 24,000 complaints
					

Broadcasting watchdog Ofcom say they won't be taking any action against Britain's Got Talent after Diversity's Black Lives Matter inspired performance



					www.google.com


----------



## Athos (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Can you understand parents concerns regarding family viewing, perhaps not suitable for little ones seeing a dancer dressed as a policeman kneeling on someone’s neck?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stop being disingenuous. You know full well what's behind the vast majority of those complaints.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Can you understand parents concerns regarding family viewing, perhaps not suitable for little ones seeing a dancer dressed as a policeman kneeling on someone’s neck?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you actually seen the video? It's hardly a disturbing scene and without context it just looks like an unusual dance move. So no, these ultra-sensitive Daily Mail parents can fuck right off with this bullshit. You'll see infinitely more disturbing scenes on TV every fucking day, pre-watershed.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 19, 2020)

think of the little ones


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 19, 2020)

editor said:


> Have you actually seen the video? It's hardly a disturbing scene and without context it just looks like an unusual dance move. So no, these ultra-sensitive Daily Mail parents can fuck right off with this bullshit. You'll see infinitely more disturbing scenes on TV every fucking day, pre-watershed.



Just watched it with the gf - it’s absolutely amazing tbh.

It is very dark but that reflects the current times and I don’t see any reason myself for the complaints.  Ultimately it ends with a positive message.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Just watched it with the gf - it’s absolutely amazing tbh.
> 
> It is very dark but that reflects the current times and I don’t see any reason myself for the complaints.  Ultimately it ends with a positive message.


So why did you make your earlier comment condemning it when you were speaking from a position of total ignorance?


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 19, 2020)

editor said:


> So why did you make your earlier comment condemning it when you were speaking from a position of total ignorance?



Because as a parent I understand how tetchy other parents can be - you’d be surprised.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 19, 2020)

editor said:


> So why did you make your earlier comment condemning it when you were speaking from a position of total ignorance?



You want him to change his whole posting policy?  

I do generally leave people alone on the boards but he's such a disingenuous shit that I make an exception for Marty1.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Because as a parent I understand how tetchy other parents can be - you’d be surprised.


But why post up a comment that was based entirely on right wing bigotry/racism/utter ignorance (take your pick) unless it's a position you actively support? Why open your gob and pollute this thread with Daily Mail-esque cod-outrage when you _haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about _and haven't bothered to even watch the fucking video in the first place?

And you can fuck off with this "as a parent" bullshit too. That doesn't excuse wilful stupidity and ignorance.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 19, 2020)

editor said:


> But why post up a comment that was based entirely on right wing bigotry/racism/utter ignorance (take your pick) unless it's a position you actively support? Why open your gob and pollute this thread with Daily Mail-esque cod-outrage when you _haven't a fucking clue what you're talking about _and haven't bothered to even watch the fucking video in the first place?
> 
> And you can fuck off with this "as a parent" bullshit too. That doesn't excuse wilful stupidity and ignorance.



Sigh.

Ffs, no it not a position I ‘actively support’ whatsoever, I’m simply exploring why a record number of complaints were made about this performance and offering suggestions within the context of this thread.

Ah, you’re quick to dismiss my comment as a parent though - despite after me watching the diversity performance too.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2020)

Why would you be concerned as a parent? Kids love dancing and they will be aware of George Floyd/BLM and would know what it is referring to.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Ffs, no it not a position I ‘actively support’ whatsoever, I’m simply exploring why a record number of complaints were made about this performance and offering suggestions within the context of this thread.
> 
> Ah, you’re quick to dismiss my comment as a parent though - despite after me watching the diversity performance too.


You asked,_ "Can you understand parents concerns regarding family viewing, perhaps not suitable for little ones seeing a dancer dressed as a policeman kneeling on someone’s neck?"_
Even though you'd never seen the video. 

So you were speaking from a position of total ignorance, stoked up on right-wing negativity. It's awfully tiresome. If you can't be bothered to even watch the thing you're making a negative 'point' about, why say anything?


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 19, 2020)

editor said:


> You asked,_ "Can you understand parents concerns regarding family viewing, perhaps not suitable for little ones seeing a dancer dressed as a policeman kneeling on someone’s neck?"_
> Even though you'd never seen the video.
> 
> So you were speaking from a position of total ignorance, stoked up on right-wing negativity. It's awfully tiresome. If you can't be bothered to even watch the thing you're making a negative 'point' about, why say anything?



Because it’s been reported with pics of that scene.

After watching it (which I enjoyed and thought was amazing) the scene in question could very well cause concern for parents of youngsters *imo.*

The diversity performance though excellent was very dark (as intended) so, although the complaints seemed high, should not perhaps be totally unexpected.

Anyway, I’m not going to continually repeat myself from innuendos.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 19, 2020)

I've hear some shit from the fella

but seriously "won't someone think of the children"


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Anyway, I’m not going to continually repeat myself


Oh god, if only that were true.


----------



## Athos (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Because it’s been reported with pics of that scene.
> 
> After watching it (which I enjoyed and thought was amazing) the scene in question could very well cause concern for parents of youngsters *imo.*
> 
> ...



Do you seriously think that concern that this is somehow inappropriate for very young children is what motivated the vast majority of the complaints? Honestly?


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh it will go where it meanders but not sure opening it with a rhetorical question is going to help the infant discussion grow
> 
> *but i still think it's a mistake to highlight the number of complaints and imply that people could only not like it if they're wrong uns.*



I agree, but if anything this performance will have increased BLM exposure further, which is a positive and no doubt intended despite these complaints.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I agree, but if anything this performance will have increased BLM exposure further, which is a positive and no doubt intended despite these complaints.


If you agree I withdraw the comment, i must have been mistaken


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Can you understand parents concerns regarding family viewing, perhaps not suitable for little ones seeing a dancer dressed as a policeman kneeling on someone’s neck?


Fuck off you horrible cunt.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 19, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Fuck off you horrible cunt.



^ Vile internet yob ^


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> ^ Vile internet yob ^


Better that than an apologist for the right wing.


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> ^ Vile internet yob ^



and you are a right wing apologist..


also a  right wing snowflake Marty1





"


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> ^ Vile internet yob ^


Feeble


----------



## Clair De Lune (Sep 19, 2020)

I can't bear to watch any kind of dance or musicals...they make me cringe. I think its cos when I was in art college we were forced to go yo the performances the performing arts students put on to fill seats.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Because it’s been reported with pics of that scene.
> 
> After watching it (which I enjoyed and thought was amazing) the scene in question could very well cause concern for parents of youngsters *imo.*


But  - speaking as a parent, of course - you're OK with kids watching Westerns, sci-fi films and the like where bad guys regularly get shot or hurt, and you're just fine with cartoons that feature knockabout violence throughout, but you simply_ draw the line_ at a screengrab of an artistic dance performance that contains no actual violence?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 19, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Can you understand parents concerns regarding family viewing, perhaps not suitable for little ones seeing a dancer dressed as a policeman kneeling on someone’s neck?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




...because of course...every single one of those people are so outraged about violence and racism that they are actively anti-racist in their everyday lives because they absolutely will not let theirs or anyone else's kids experience it or have to witness it and make no mistake!


----------



## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

The "think of the children" thing was posted on a friend's Facebook comments the other day. But the only kids that might possibly be disturbed by the image of a policeman kneeling on someone would be too young to realise that's what was on show, for all of the ten or so seconds that was part of the dance. Any kid who recognised that image, or "black lives matter" as a political slogan rather than just a truism, must already know about the situations the performance was referencing.



Clair De Lune said:


> I can't bear to watch any kind of dance or musicals...they make me cringe. I think its cos when I was in art college we were forced to go yo the performances the performing arts students put on to fill seats.



Heh, I kinda feel the same way, so I was surprised by how much I've liked Diversity when I've seen them.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2020)

Clair De Lune said:


> I can't bear to watch any kind of dance or musicals...they make me cringe. I think its cos when I was in art college we were forced to go yo the performances the performing arts students put on to fill seats.


aye, this routine is well cringey - far too on the nose - had to watch behind my cushion - but still, fuck the nobheads complaining to ofcom about it


----------



## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

I too found the Diversity number embarrassing to watch and I generally enjoy musicals and dance. Obviously I don't find its politics offensive but it's a good example of the best intentions often resulting in bad art. It's a talent show product which may look impressive if you have no reference points for what a good modern dance piece looks like. There is a reason why Diversity perform at Butlins and not at Sadlers Wells.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> I too found the Diversity number embarrassing to watch and I generally enjoy musicals and dance. Obviously I don't find its politics offensive but it's a good example of the best intentions often resulting in bad art. It's a talent show product which may look impressive if you have no reference points for what a good modern dance piece looks like. There is a reason why Diversity perform at Butlins and not at Sadlers Wells.


Ooh, I didn't know Sadlers Wells put on performances of street dance. I shall look out for those. Seriously.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> I too found the Diversity number embarrassing to watch and I generally enjoy musicals and dance. Obviously I don't find its politics offensive but it's a good example of the best intentions often resulting in bad art. It's a talent show product which may look impressive if you have no reference points for what a good modern dance piece looks like. There is a reason why Diversity perform at Butlins and not at Sadlers Wells.



I think one of the reasons is that they want to take dance as an art to places that might not otherwise see it in person. And you might well have seen dance performances at Sadler's Wells, but I bet you've never actually seen any at Butlins.


----------



## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

Guineveretoo said:


> Ooh, I didn't know Sadlers Wells put on performances of street dance. I shall look out for those. Seriously.


Please do:









						Breakin' Convention 21 - International Festival of Hip Hop Dance Theatre - Sadler's Wells Theatre
					

Breakin' Convention 21 - International Festival of Hip Hop Dance Theatre - Sadler's Wells Theatre




					www.sadlerswells.com


----------



## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I think one of the reasons is that they want to take dance as an art to places that might not otherwise see it in person. And you might well have seen dance performances at Sadler's Wells, but I bet you've never actually seen any at Butlins.



What gets sold to audiences as great art or entertainment on talent shows, usually can't hack it when up against the real thing. Diversity is to street dance what Susan Boyle is to singing. There certainly is technical skill but not the ideas and good judgement, which comes with genuine artistic talent. This type of act needs the competition angle and a human interest story to bamboozle a tv audience into believing that these people are more than moderately talented reality show celebs.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> Please do:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, is "hip hop" the same as "street dance"? 

I know so little, I amaze myself, sometimes.


----------



## freakydave (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> What gets sold to audiences as great art or entertainment on talent shows, usually can't hack it when up against the real thing. Diversity is to street dance what Susan Boyle is to singing. There certainly is technical skill but not the ideas and good judgement, which comes with genuine artistic talent. This type of act needs the competition angle and a human interest story to bamboozle a tv audience into believing that these people are more than moderately talented reality show celebs.



I don't think that anyone is calling it great art though. I generally don't mind that there is a cheesy version of good stuff for Saturday night TV because it's deliberately broad and mass market. 
I guess that it would be better if they had 'proper' stuff on these mass market shows, but like you said,  that's the same for the singing and probably the other acts on there.

These shows baffle me because they would work once every 5 years or something so it was a bunch of new and weird stuff, but just as a thing every year, it must be so repetitive


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## freakydave (Sep 20, 2020)

The idea that it was the simulated violence that was disturbing doesn't make sense since you see much worse in Saturday afternoon films like Indiana Jones or the WW2 films etc


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## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2020)

freakydave said:


> The idea that it was the simulated violence that was disturbing doesn't make sense since you see much worse in Saturday afternoon films like Indiana Jones or the WW2 films etc


that doesn't make any sense whatsoever: what i or you see and feel does not have any bearing on what other people feel, who may not have seen these films


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## freakydave (Sep 20, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> that doesn't make any sense whatsoever: what i or you see and feel does not have any bearing on what other people feel, who may not have seen these films



But apparently people were objecting to this dance performance because it portrayed a policeman kneeling on a civilian's neck. If they don't think that that level of violence belongs on Saturday evening television, then surely people being shot and blown up definitely shouldn't be on in the afternoon when more kids etc are going to be watching

edit: I don't think that anyone was actually upset by the level of violence in the routine, I have always found it interesting how totally acceptable it is to have people being shot and killed as part of kids entertainment, but that's another story...


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## Ax^ (Sep 20, 2020)

did they not have a stripper on one of Simon Cowells shitty tv shows a few years back


that got around 70 complaints


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## Pickman's model (Sep 20, 2020)

?





freakydave said:


> But apparently people were objecting to this dance performance because it portrayed a policeman kneeling on a civilian's neck. If they don't think that that level of violence belongs on Saturday evening television, then surely people being shot and blown up definitely shouldn't be on in the afternoon when more kids etc are going to be watching
> 
> edit: I don't think that anyone was actually upset by the level of violence in the routine, I have always found it interesting how totally acceptable it is to have people being shot and killed as part of kids entertainment, but that's another story...


when do you think tom and jerry should be shown?


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

Guineveretoo said:


> Oh, is "hip hop" the same as "street dance"?
> 
> I know so little, I amaze myself, sometimes.



It is  

Doesn’t matter what genre, if it’s genuinely great modern dance, you’ll see it at Sadlers Wells. What you won’t see is talent show dance acts who tell you what to think and feel via loudspeakers


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## belboid (Sep 20, 2020)

This a more than a tad patronising.   I’ve seen plenty of modern dance, award winning stuff,and the diversity piece was just as good, technically, as many of them.  Yes it’s flashy and too much acrobatics for my taste, but that is, to a large extent, because it is a consparatively mainstream piece for a mass audience, not one aimed at the middle class dance aficionados.


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## freakydave (Sep 20, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> ?
> when do you think tom and jerry should be shown?



I wasn't saying that it shouldn't be shown, I was saying that the violence argument is a ridiculous complaint because 'mild' simulated violence is all over television


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## 8ball (Sep 20, 2020)

belboid said:


> This a more than a tad patronising.   I’ve seen plenty of modern dance, award winning stuff,and the diversity piece was just as good, technically, as many of them.  Yes it’s flashy and too much acrobatics for my taste, but that is, to a large extent, because it is a consparatively mainstream piece for a mass audience, not one aimed at the middle class dance aficionados.



I am an ignorant oik when it comes to dance and I approve of this message.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

belboid said:


> This a more than a tad patronising.   I’ve seen plenty of modern dance, award winning stuff,and the diversity piece was just as good, technically, as many of them.  Yes it’s flashy and too much acrobatics for my taste, but that is, to a large extent, because it is a consparatively mainstream piece for a mass audience, not one aimed at the middle class dance aficionados.


The invocation of class always wins here, doesn’t it ? I know plenty of people who are working class and who appreciate  and even make genuinely great art. As this is the right forum for it and this has gotten nothing but fawning praise till OUs post, why not evaluate its artistic merits ? Thumbs down from me.


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## krtek a houby (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> The invocation of class always wins here, doesn’t it ? I know plenty of people who are working class and who appreciate  and even make genuinely great art. As this is the right forum for it and this has gotten nothing but fawning praise till OUs post, why not evaluate its artistic merits ? Thumbs down from me.



Here's the thing, though. What makes something great art, as opposed to mediocre etc? All very subjective, surely.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> The invocation of class always wins here, doesn’t it ? I know plenty of people who are working class and who appreciate  and even make genuinely great art. As this is the right forum for it and this has gotten nothing but fawning praise till OUs post, why not evaluate its artistic merits ? Thumbs down from me.


I would never have watched this had it not been for this thread, and it certainly reminds me why I never watch shite like bgt.

Acts on that kind of show have little space to demonstrate artistic merit tbh, because to have artistic merit normally means to present some kind of a challenge to an audience, to show something new. These Saturday night shows are all about being as unchallenging as possible, to present only what is already familiar. It's brain rot really. I don't think it's patronising to point that out.

Tbh I thought the most challenging, and political, bit about the routine wasn't about blm so much as the line about the government telling us to stay inside.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 20, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Here's the thing, though. What makes something great art, as opposed to mediocre etc? All very subjective, surely.


Yes and no. It is subjective, but it isn't arbitrary.


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## belboid (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> The invocation of class always wins here, doesn’t it ? I know plenty of people who are working class and who appreciate  and even make genuinely great art. As this is the right forum for it and this has gotten nothing but fawning praise till OUs post, why not evaluate its artistic merits ?


?? That’s exactly what we are doing.  

Artistic and technical merit are different things too.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> The invocation of class always wins here, doesn’t it ? I know plenty of people who are working class and who appreciate  and even make genuinely great art. As this is the right forum for it and this has gotten nothing but fawning praise till OUs post, why not evaluate its artistic merits ? Thumbs down from me.


The “artistic merit” of the routine is utterly irrelevant.


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## 8ball (Sep 20, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The “artistic merit” of the routine is utterly irrelevant.



Yeah, this complaint is a “someone is wrong on the internet” diversion.


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> It is
> 
> Doesn’t matter what genre, if it’s genuinely great modern dance, you’ll see it at Sadlers Wells. What you won’t see is talent show dance acts who tell you what to think and feel via loudspeakers


Surely 'street' dance means urban vernacular dancing rather than royal academy graduates anyway? Sadlers Wells stuff is better produced but Diversity are genuinely popular (even with the kind of people who probably objected to this particular dance) _because_ they're talent show winners from East London rather than ballerinas in jeans. I've never met them but they were long time clients of mine in my last two jobs and they're very nice people who seem to work very hard at what they do.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Surely 'street' dance means urban vernacular dancing rather than royal academy graduates anyway? Sadlers Wells stuff is better produced but Diversity are genuinely popular (even with the kind of people who probably objected to this particular dance) _because_ they're talent show winners from East London rather than ballerinas in jeans. I've never met them but they were long time clients of mine in my last two jobs and they're very nice people who seem to work very hard at what they do.


Did you even bother to look at the Sadlers Wells link before you wrote this ? They have been running a major street dance/hip hop festival since 2004, that means some of the biggest acts from that scene appear there, not "ballerinas in jeans" and way more credible than some overproduced ITV talent shows act. I don't doubt Diversity are nice and have many fans, the same same said about Susan Boyle. 









						Breakin' Convention - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> Did you even bother to look at the Sadlers Wells link before you wrote this ?


Don't be silly.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> Don't be silly.


Huh ?


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

belboid said:


> This a more than a tad patronising.   I’ve seen plenty of modern dance, award winning stuff,and the diversity piece was just as good, technically, as many of them.  Yes it’s flashy and too much acrobatics for my taste, but that is, to a large extent, because it is a consparatively mainstream piece for a mass audience, not one aimed at the middle class dance aficionados.



I also doubt the performances at Sadler's Wells include children. 

The Sadler's Wells dancers probably are better - it'd be surprising if they weren't, after years of intensive professional training compared a troupe of mechanics and builders who dance for fun (I think only Ashley Banjo is full time) - but that doesn't mean everything not at Sadler's Wells is shit. That's weirdly binary thinking.


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> Huh ?



It's not the politics forum. Knowledge and research are not prerequisites for participation.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> I also doubt the performances at Sadler's Wells include children.
> 
> The Sadler's Wells dancers probably are better - it'd be surprising if they weren't, after years of intensive professional training compared a troupe of mechanics and builders who dance for fun (I think only Ashley Banjo is full time) - but that doesn't mean everything not at Sadler's Wells is shit. That's weirdly binary thinking.



They are not "Sadlers Wells dancers". Sadlers Wells is not a dance company. They are a performing art venue that hosts acclaimed choreographers and dancers from all round the world. Including street dancers.



maomao said:


> It's not the politics forum. Knowledge and research are not prerequisites for participation.



I believe some degree of knowledge is the basis for any subject matter you insist on discussing. You don't need to educate yourself, you just need to click on the link I provided before making a statement that's totally wrong.


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> They are not "Sadlers Wells dancers". Sadlers Wells is not a dance company. They are a performing art venue that hosts acclaimed choreographers and dancers from all round the world. Including street dancers.



And the dancers that perform there can be called Sadler's Wells dancers. Are you seriously trying to correct my English??

I don't understand this whole diversion. None of the people making complaints were doing it because they thought the dancers aren't as good as dancers at Sadler's Wells. If you didn't like the performance for artistic reasons, that's fine, but it's not the only valid opinion. 

I like both opera and pop music; opera singers are far more technically skilled, but that's not the only criterion that counts.


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## BlanketAddict (Sep 20, 2020)

Why do I keep thinking about Legs Akimbo from The League Of Gentlemen when I'm reading this thread?


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> And the dancers that perform there can be called Sadler's Wells dancers. Are you seriously trying to correct my English??


No, they cant be called "Sadlers Wells dancers". They are called the dancers of whatever dance company or dance group they belong to.


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> No, they cant be called "Sadlers Wells dancers". They are called the dancers of whatever dance company or group they belong to.



And when they're performing at Sadler's Wells, they can be called Sadler's Wells dancers. 

Why does the distinction matter to you anyway? This is a really weird argument.


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## Saul Goodman (Sep 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> And the dancers that perform there can be called Sadler's Wells dancers. Are you seriously trying to correct my English??


Indeed, just as my mother could be known as Miss Blackpool, because she once went there


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

Saul Goodman said:


> Indeed, just as my mother could be known as Miss Blackpool, because she once went there



Well, if there was a tradition of naming people after places they've visited, yeah, sure. There isn't, so it's not the same. Diversity, SuBo, etc, are Britain's Got Talent performers, but that doesn't mean BGT owns them. I don't get why the distinction is apparently important, but anyone trying to correct my English can fuck off.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> And when they're performing at Sadler's Wells, they can be called Sadler's Wells dancers.
> 
> Why does the distinction matter to you anyway? This is a really weird argument.


At best you can call them dancers who have performed at the Sadlers Wells, but the dance companies and groups who perform there already have names. So no, you can't call them "Sadlers Wells dancers", nobody would know what the fuck you are talking about and it has nothing to do with "correcting English". The discussion is weird because it would help if you had the tiniest bit of knowledge about the subject matter you insist on carrying on a discussion about. I will leave it here as this is pointless.


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

It's not even ambiguous because there's no capital D. If it were the name of the troupe it would be capitalised and the stress would be on Dancers. With the stress on Wells it just means the dancers that were at Sadler's Wells as opposed to the other ones we were talking about.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> It's not even ambiguous because there's no capital D. If it were the name of the troupe it would be capitalised and the stress would be on Dancers. With the stress on Wells it just means the dancers that were at Sadler's Wells as opposed to the other ones we were talking about.


You've already made enough erroneous statements in this discussion, let's leave it here. The main point being that the street dancers who perform at Sadler's Wells not being "ballerinas in jeans" as you claimed but genuine hip hop dancers with way more credibility than a talent show act.


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## two sheds (Sep 20, 2020)

This is a rubbish argument. You're all wrong 

it should be Sadler's Wells' dancers


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

When Arsenal plays Wembley stadium, it obviously makes sense to refer to them as the "Wembley football players"


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> When Arsenal plays Wembley stadium, it obviously makes sense to refer to them as the "Wembley players"


I have a degree in linguistics not dance. 

And I could easily contrive a sentence where the Wembley players referred to Arsenal _and the team they were playing_ as opposed to The Wembley Players a light entertainment band from North West London.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2020)

Sadlers' Well's Hoofers


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> I have a degree in linguistics not dance.
> 
> And I could easily contrive a sentence where the Wembley players referred to Arsenal _and the team they were playing_ as opposed to The Wembley Players a light entertainment band from North West London.



Sure, you can contrive that for the sake of scoring a point, but who talks like that ? In the end this isn't a discussion about linguistics but about dance routine and street dance.



maomao said:


> Surely 'street' dance means urban vernacular dancing *rather than royal academy graduates anyway*? Sadlers Wells stuff is better produced but Diversity are genuinely popular (even with the kind of people who probably objected to this particular dance) _because_ they're talent show winners from East London *rather than ballerinas in jeans*. I've never met them but they were long time clients of mine in my last two jobs and they're very nice people who seem to work very hard at what they do.





scifisam said:


> I also doubt the performances at Sadler's Wells include children.
> 
> The Sadler's Wells dancers probably are better - it'd be surprising if they weren't, *after years of intensive professional training compared a troupe of mechanics and builders *who dance for fun (I think only Ashley Banjo is full time) - but that doesn't mean everything not at Sadler's Wells is shit. That's weirdly binary thinking.


This is what I took issue with, the claim that the street dancers who appear at Sadler's Wells have an advantage because of years of professional training or that they are ballerinas who are attempting street dance. The street dancers who appear at Breakin' at Sadler's Wells learned their skills on the street, they are not professionally trained dancers as both of you claimed. They learned their skills just like Diversity, they just haven't pissed away their credibility on overproduced stadium and tv routines. I just found the on-the-nose quality of the number cringemaking


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

You're the one who started a grammar fight. 



Reno said:


> is the mistake: the claim that the street dancers who appear at Sadler's Wells have an advantage because of years of professional training or that they are ballerinas who are attempting street dance. The street dancers who appear at Breakin' at Sadler's Wells learned their skills on the street, they are not professionally trained dancers as both of you claimed. They learned their skills just like Diversity, they just haven't pissed away their credibility on overproduced stadium a tv routines,


So Sadler's Wells performers are exclusively amateur street performers? Where do the Royal Academy graduates perform?


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> You're the one who started a grammar fight.
> 
> 
> So Sadler's Wells performers are exclusively amateur street performers? Where do the Royal Academy graduates perform?


There are lots of ballet and modern dance companies for them to perform in. They don't do street dance though as the entire point of that is street-trained dancers. Unless it's in some Hollywood dance film where via plot contrivances a ballerina has to hold her own with hip hop kids. I believe that's an entire dance movie sub genre, it's not reality though.


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## two sheds (Sep 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> You're the one who started a grammar fight.



I think you'll find that I'm the one who corrected the errant apostrophes


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 20, 2020)

It's not about elitism, though, is it? bgt is shit in the same way that Stock, Aitken and Waterman were shit. That's not an elitist statement. Motown in its heyday produced a mass of not-shit music that was also popular. SAW just produced shit that was popular, thus filling with shit spaces that could have had better things in them. Jacques Brel used to perform on Saturday night prime time in France back in the day. There's no reason it can't be better than the dirge produced by the inheritors of the spirit of Pete Waterman, other than the fact that they have inherited that space and they employ a slick operation to ensure they keep it. It's not elitist to refuse to accept the shite being sold to you and to want better. It's also not a crime to enjoy it, but I don't see why anyone should get some special pass for enjoying it, and it's definitely not just a class thing. To claim that is itself a form of class prejudice, imo.


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> There are lots of ballet and modern dance companies for them to perform in. They don't do street dance though as the entire point of that is street-trained dancers. Unless it's in some Hollywood dance film where via plot contrivances a ballerina has to hold her own with hip hop kids. I believe that's an entire dance movie sub genre, it's not reality though.


So on the Royal Academy's website where it says they do ballet, jazz and street dance they're lying?


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I think you'll find that I'm the one who corrected the errant apostrophes


Yeah, he started it, you finished it.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

maomao said:


> So on the Royal Academy's website where it says they do ballet, jazz and street dance they're lying?


Of course you can train for any form if dance there.

You are right, all the great hip hop and street dancers from the US and from all over the UK who perform at Breakin', really went to the Royal Academy. Street dance is all a big con !


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## maomao (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> Of course you can train for any form if dance there.
> 
> You are right, all the great hip hop and street dancers from the US and from all over the UK who perform at Breakin' really went to the Royal Academy. Street dance is all a big con !


So just one show then? Cause you were making it sound like some sort of permanent festival of street dance with no pros allowed. 

And I'd bet money that a fair proportion of professional dancers in professional dance shows are professionally trained.


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> Sure, you can contrive that for the sake of scoring a point, but who talks like that ? In the end this isn't a discussion about linguistics but about dance routine and street dance.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I took issue with, the claim that the street dancers who appear at Sadler's Wells have an advantage because of years of professional training or that they are ballerinas who are attempting street dance. The street dancers who appear at Breakin' at Sadler's Wells learned their skills on the street, they are not professionally trained dancers as both of you claimed. They learned their skills just like Diversity, they just haven't pissed away their credibility on overproduced stadium and tv routines. I just found the on-the-nose quality of the number cringemaking



You made the discussion about linguistics by attempting to correct my English.

The Sadler's Wells dancers - or dancers at Sadler's Wells, because phrasing it that way for some reason is important to you - are usually professionals with professional training; not all dance training is ballet. That doesn't make street dance a con - what are you on about?   

And the Breakin' festival is _literally_ an international festival of the best streetdance troupes from around the world. If Diversity aren't as good as them, so what? They're not the best in the world? Oh no, how terrible.  You don't like Diversity, fine, that's your opinion. WTF does it have to do with this thread?


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

two sheds said:


> This is a rubbish argument. You're all wrong
> 
> it should be Sadler's Wells' dancers



Nah, the possessive actually would imply that the dancers were part of Sadler's Wells rather than simply performing there. Though they do have some courses of their own, including in street dance, so the students there could be Sadler's Wells' dancers.

(And yeah, I know you were just taking the piss).


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## two sheds (Sep 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> (And yeah, I know you were just taking the piss).


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

scifisam said:


> You made the discussion about linguistics by attempting to correct my English.
> 
> The Sadler's Wells dancers - or dancers at Sadler's Wells, because phrasing it that way for some reason is important to you - are usually professionals with professional training; not all dance training is ballet.
> 
> And the Breakin' festival is _literally_ an international festival of the best streetdance troupes from around the world. If Diversity aren't as good as them, so what? They're not the best in the world? Oh no, how terrible.  WTF does it have to do with this thread?


I questioned why Diversity perform at Butlins while more credibly modern and street dance companies perform at Sadler's Wells. Then the Urban75 trump card of class got invoked (Sadler's Wells obviously being for toffs only) and it all went pear shaped. littlebabyjesus picked up the baton above and put it better than I did. Expecting for art not to be populist shit isn't elitist and it's condescending to the working class to claim that BGT is for them and that they wouldn't want anything better. That is not off-topic when discussing a street dance talent show act and it's artistic merits.

I'm not even that invested in this topic and now I spent half an evening on it.


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## belboid (Sep 20, 2020)

is anyone saying that tho? I’m certainly not.  You can be pretty populist AND bloody good - just look at a whole host of pop music.  And of course working class people can enjoy ‘good’ art.  It’s just that performances aimed at aficionados are going to be rather different to those aimed at a prime time Saturday night audience.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I think you'll find that I'm the one who corrected the errant apostrophes


I also claim apostrophe amnesty as I've got both German and English auto correct on.


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## Reno (Sep 20, 2020)

belboid said:


> is anyone saying that tho? I’m certainly not.  You can be pretty populist AND bloody good - just look at a whole host of pop music.  And of course working class people can enjoy ‘good’ art.  It’s just that performances aimed at aficionados are going to be rather different to those aimed at a prime time Saturday night audience.


I'm not arguing that pop culture doesn't come up lots of great art, I'm a fan. But I don't believe that modern talent shows produce anything good and their criteria by which to evaluate talent and artistry is terrible. It's a horrible mix of sentimentality, human interest story and superficial technical talent which is soulless. It's not about how to interpret a song or a dance with personalty and meaning, it's about who can hold that note the longest and who can jump the highest and who has the best sob story. I think it has a bad influence on popular culture and on how many people evaluate art/entertainment now. That Diversity dance number is all that. For me it's a little sad when someone says, I generally don't like dance, but I like this, which got me started on Diversity's artistic merits.


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## belboid (Sep 20, 2020)

Generalisations may be generally true, but they also miss (by definition) those exceptions to the rule.  

As Little Mix and Alesha Dixon would undoubtedly tell you.


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2020)

Reno said:


> I questioned why Diversity perform at Butlins while more credibly modern and street dance companies perform at Sadler's Wells. Then the Urban75 trump card of class got invoked (Sadler's Wells obviously being for toffs only) and it all went pear shaped. littlebabyjesus picked up the baton above and put it better than I did. Expecting for art not to be populist shit isn't elitist and it's condescending to the working class to claim that BGT is for them and that they wouldn't want anything better. That is not off-topic when discussing a street dance talent show act and it's artistic merits.
> 
> I'm not even that invested in this topic and now I spent half an evening on it.



It wouldn't be off-topic when discussing the artistic merits of a street dance troupe, but that's not the topic of this thread. It's a pointless tangent. I mean, there's not really any debate to be had - some people like Diversity, and you don't. You are not obliged to like them, and nobody else is obliged to dislike them either. 

Nobody has claimed that working class people don't want good art. But when you bring up Butlins in a dismissive way then you are the one bringing class into the discussion.


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## editor (Sep 22, 2020)

> A spokesperson for Ofcom told The Sun it had received 1,675 complaints about Britain’s Got Talent's episode on Saturday - the majority relating to Alesha’s necklace.





Imagine being so fucking pathetically fragile that you go to the effort of registering a complaint over a fucking necklace.  









						Ofcom hit with 2,000 complaints over Alesha Dixon wearing BLM necklace on BGT
					

Broadcasting watchdog Ofcom received 1,901 complaints after BGT judge Alesha Dixon wore a BLM necklace on the talent show on Saturday




					www.mirror.co.uk


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## ska invita (Sep 22, 2020)

editor said:


> Imagine being so fucking pathetically fragile that you go to the effort of registering a complaint over a fucking necklace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah but what if your child saw it?


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 22, 2020)

editor said:


> Imagine being so fucking pathetically fragile that you go to the effort of registering a complaint over a fucking necklace.





what a bunch of snowflakes...


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## IC3D (Sep 22, 2020)

Really just watched that and it was way less naff than I expected and the kneeling bit jeez get a grip. Pricks.


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