# Honeytrap - groundbreaking Brixton film about gang culture goes for crowdfunding



## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

This looks to be a fantastic project.



> Fierce Productins is partnering with producer Sarah Sulick and Bright Pictures to make Rebecca Johnson’s feature debut HONEYTRAP, shooting in August 2013.
> 
> Yearning for love and status, fifteen-year-old Layla is swept into a whirlwind romance with self-styled gang leader/rapper Troy – and then spat out the other side. Desperate to win him back, she offers to set up the boy who’s in love with her to be killed…
> 
> ...


 



More: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2013/03/...rspective-launches-its-crowdfunding-campaign/


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## Rushy (Mar 8, 2013)

Am I imagining it or does this sounds awfully like a horrible story in the news a couple of years ago?


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 8, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Am I imagining it or does this sounds awfully like a horrible story in the news a couple of years ago?


Yup, my first thought too. There was already a BBC (iirc) film made based on that case. So what makes this one 'groundbreaking' then?


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## joustmaster (Mar 8, 2013)

needs more danny dyer


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## Rushy (Mar 8, 2013)

I posted before watching the trailer. She says it is based on a real local story. That's dark.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 8, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yup, my first thought too. There was already a BBC (iirc) film made based on that case. So what makes this one 'groundbreaking' then?


 
Yes - the TV programme was called 'My Murder' iirc.


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## trabuquera (Mar 8, 2013)

the 'My Murder' programme was really not bad, either. However it didn't put the girl's character centre stage (so I think that's what the reference is about in the crowdsourcing plea). I hope they do a good job of it.


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## Rushy (Mar 8, 2013)

What I don't get is that this seems to be ultimately a commercial project. The aim is to film, sell and distribute. Investment is being sought from industry financiers. Support from crowdsourcers is supposed to help reassure them that their investments will pay off.




> *We want to retain a truly indie approach. *The more independent finance we raise, the more independent creative control we retain – and the more exciting and original HONEYTRAP can be.
> We will be in a stronger position vis-a-vis industry financiers once we have raised a significant chunk of money through crowdfunding. It not only makes film financiers feel they are taking less of a risk, it also shows them how much support we have - and that audiences are interested in seeing this story on the screen.




Films are risky investments at the best of times and although this one sounds like a strong story the subject matter probably makes it riskier than most. So, of course, anyone investing in this kind of film knows that they are pretty unlikely to see their money again. They will almost certainly have other reasons why they are investing - such as the community training, supporting the arts, etc... But if it does happen to be financially successful despite its low budget, why is there no equity share for crowdsourcers? How much will the producers and industry financiers own?

Am I missing something?


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

What's 'groundbreaking' about it? lol

The use of untrained actors?


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## spanglechick (Mar 8, 2013)

Yeah, I have to say I'm pretty tired of films about young people in London being about gangs and crime.  It's lazy and I see nothing ground-breaking about this.  

The my murder dramatisation was intelligently done, whereas the description above makes this sound like a romanticisation of a very nasty, seedy motivation for a genuinely horrible crime.  

Crowd sourcing is popular for independent films, but tbh, in my opinion there's little artistic, social or moral justification for this to be made.  Invest in indie film making by all means, though.  There is some genuinely groundbreaking stuff.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Am I imagining it or does this sounds awfully like a horrible story in the news a couple of years ago?


If you watch the film trailer she mentions that, as does the BrixtonBuzz article.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2013)

Is 'crowdsourcing' hipster-speak for 'begging'?


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Yeah, I have to say I'm pretty tired of films about young people in London being about gangs and crime. It's lazy and I see nothing ground-breaking about this.


Have you actually watched the trailer?


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## el-ahrairah (Mar 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Is 'crowdsourcing' hipster-speak for 'begging'?


 
yep.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Is 'crowdsourcing' hipster-speak for 'begging'?


If you like yes. Or maybe it's just a way to get interesting films funded that would normally be ignored by the profit-driven majors.


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## spanglechick (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Have you actually watched the trailer?


Yes, I actually have.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Yes, I actually have.


So you don't think the fact that the movie is based on a female perspective on gang culture or the mentoring that will accompany the filming marks it out as a bit different from your usual 'boring' gang film?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> If you like yes. Or maybe it's just a way to get interesting films funded that would normally be ignored by the profit-driven majors.


There are interesting films which are worth supporting and there are interesting films which are attempting to make money out of other people's misery. This seems to be the latter, and they can get by without a donation from me.


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## spanglechick (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> So you don't think the fact that the movie is based on a female perspective on gang culture or the mentoring that will accompany the filming marks it out as a bit different from your usual 'boring' gang film?


No. I get four or five emails a year from indie producers looking for teenaged black girls to be in films about gang culture. The topic is very popular with low-budget film makers.  Some of these come with details about mentoring schemes, and although not every film gets made, some do and there have been mentoring schemes before.  Is it ground-breaking that the central character is female? No more than the perenial 'Macbeth from Lady macbeth's perspective' student projects are.  

It would be a lot braver, more groundbreaking and remarkable if this was a story about south London kids that wasn't about gangs at all.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Well, I've got time for both the project and Rebecca Johnson and I think it's good to see local kids getting involved and having an opportunity to learn about film production. I also think the storyline has a refreshing twist to the usual gang stuff, which I also normally find extremely boring.

Like it or not, gangs do play a big part in the culture around here.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> There are interesting films which are worth supporting and there are interesting films which are attempting to make money out of other people's misery.


I don't think that's either the intention or the case.


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## spanglechick (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Well, I've got time for both the project and Rebecca Johnson and I think it's good to see local kids getting involved and having an opportunity to learn about film production. I also think the storyline has a refreshing twist to the usual gang stuff, which I also normally find extremely boring.
> 
> Like it or not, gangs do play a big part in the culture around here.


But what proportion of kids do you think are involved in gangs?  

As opposed to - say - what proportion of the kids are involved in extra curricular sport? Or as opposed to the proportion of kids that attend church? (not my bag, but it's huge in our local culture). Or as opposed to the number who are into music?  Or just doing all the normal "white" teenager film fodder like falling in love and having arguments with their friends and parents and trying to fit in at school.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

Doesn't it serve to perpetuate stereotypes if young black people are just in films about gang violence?  Plus glorifying the violence?


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

It's about as ground breaking as tomato ketchup.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> But what proportion of kids do you think are involved in gangs?


But films generally aren't all about reflecting the everyday. If you don't like the sound of this film that's fair enough, but I'm not going to slag it off without even seeing it because I think there are far more positives to this venture than most.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Doesn't it serve to perpetuate stereotypes if young black people are just in films about gang violence? Plus glorifying the violence?


Where does it "glorify the violence"?


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Where does it "glorify the violence"?



By turning a nasty crime into a glamorous film production.


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## Rushy (Mar 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> It's about as ground breaking as tomato ketchup.


That sounds like a good idea. Let's talk...


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> By turning a nasty crime into a glamorous film production.


Where does the "glamorous" bit come from, exactly? Why do you keep making up stuff?


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## MillwallShoes (Mar 8, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> No. I get four or five emails a year from indie producers looking for teenaged black girls to be in films about gang culture. The topic is very popular with low-budget film makers. Some of these come with details about mentoring schemes, and although not every film gets made, some do and there have been mentoring schemes before. Is it ground-breaking that the central character is female? No more than the perenial 'Macbeth from Lady macbeth's perspective' student projects are.
> 
> It would be a lot braver, more groundbreaking and remarkable if this was a story about south London kids that wasn't about gangs at all.


 
here here


editor said:


> Well, I've got time for both the project and Rebecca Johnson and I think it's good to see local kids getting involved and having an opportunity to learn about film production. I also think the storyline has a refreshing twist to the usual gang stuff, which I also normally find extremely boring.
> 
> Like it or not, gangs do play a big part in the culture around here.


 
they do. especially if you have your own kids to raise amongst them. any hint of glamorisation of this problem and i'm out.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> Where does the "glamorous" bit come from, exactly? Why do you keep making up stuff?



Yep, there's nothing glamorous about the film industry. It's like working in the mines.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Well, I've got time for both the project and Rebecca Johnson and I think it's good to see local kids getting involved and having an opportunity to learn about film production. I also think the storyline has a refreshing twist to the usual gang stuff, which I also normally find extremely boring.
> 
> Like it or not, gangs do play a big part in the culture around here.


 
I can't watch the trailer from work - I will later - but it will have to be very impressive to overcome what Spanglechick is saying, which so far I agree with.

Did you get to watch My Murder btw - that really wasn't 'the usual gang stuff', and from what I can recall there was a fair bit from the girl's perspective albeit in a BBC drama rather than gritty film style. That film did seem to resonate with a lot of teenagers so I can see they'd be attracted to it, but so far I have a lot of reservations.


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## Rushy (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Where does the "glamorous" bit come from, exactly? Why do you keep making up stuff?


To be fair, a lot of the imagery in the clips of other films used to describe the project looked fairly cool and polished rather than gritty.

At the end of the day she is making a feature film. Very few feature films get away without creating some kind of aspiration because the masses don't want to watch miserable stories about the less fortunate's suffering.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 8, 2013)

Well, gangs are actually a minuscule part of culture round here, but sadly have a big impact. I know people who have lost their (blameless) sons. This film looks like the same old, same old, tired stereotypical take but thinking it's edgey and groundbreaking  It just makes me really sad.


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## MillwallShoes (Mar 8, 2013)

they should do a film on all the normal kids who live in the area who are affected by gangs. the kids who's parents are afraid to let them out. they should talk to parents who are scared for their kids every time they go to school. or the parents who up sticks to move out because they see the community they live in as dangerous. maybe then the kids who are in gangs might watch it and maybe realise in a small way what result their actions have on the wider community.

not as glamorous though.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Where does the "glamorous" bit come from, exactly? Why do you keep making up stuff?


 
Things generally just do end up glamourised a bit to make them watchable, compelling, no? 
Eg. I thought City of God was a brilliant film - but it wouldn't have been watchable if it didn't glamourise a little.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Well, gangs are actually a minuscule part of culture round here, but sadly have a big impact. I know people who have lost their (blameless) sons. This film looks like the same old, same old, tired stereotypical take but thinking it's edgey and groundbreaking  It just makes me really sad.


It doesn't look like that to me.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 8, 2013)

Maybe you haven't spent as much time with bereaved families on the estate as I have.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Maybe you haven't spent as much time with bereaved families on the estate as I have.


What has that got to do with your opinion of how you think the film may look?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> It's about as ground breaking as tomato ketchup.


More so, in fact, as now and again a new innovative variety of tomato ketchup appears


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

I've invited the producer to post here.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

And the victim's surviving relatives?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> I don't think that's either the intention or the case.


I'm sure you don't. However, objectively it is about a particularly nasty little murder and so as its intention is to make it into the big time it is obviously trying to make money out of the story. There are people, like greg hall who made 'the plague' and 'ssdd', who can make good, hard-hitting films on fuck all budget without focussing on gangs and foul murders like the one on which the film you seem to stand foursquare behind is based.


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## girasol (Mar 8, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Yup, my first thought too. There was already a BBC (iirc) film made based on that case. So what makes this one 'groundbreaking' then?


 
Not been done from a girl's perspective before? She says there's a training/mentoring programme running alongside the filming with local kids.

If this is done well it might be a good mirror for the girls involved in the culture? Sometimes you only understand what's happening when you see it from the outside. *IF* it's done well, that is.

Edit: as a teen I remember reading cautionary book/films, which gave me insight into a  lifestyle and made me aware of its pitfalls (Christiane F springs to mind)


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## MillwallShoes (Mar 8, 2013)

to be fair to editor, i don't think he's done anything wrong by posting up the film (which none of us have seen), but films like this, with the potential of glamourisation of a deeply sad subject, are always going to have a mixed response. as i say, i wont judge till i have seen it, but i have my doubts already from the blurb, and do question why these film makers churn out films based on these kids depressing lives.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm sure you don't. However, objectively it is about a particularly nasty little murder and so as its intention is to make it into the big time it is obviously trying to make money out of the story.


is it really? Where does it say that? And why are they even bothering wiyh mentoring if their sole aim is to make as much money as possible?


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

girasol said:


> Not been done from a girl's perspective before? She says there's a training/mentoring programme running alongside the filming with local kids.
> 
> If this is done well it might be a good mirror for the girls involved in the culture? Sometimes you only understand what's happening when you see it from the outside. *IF* it's done well, that is.
> 
> Edit: as a teen I remember reading cautionary book/films, which gave me insight into a lifestyle and made me aware of its pitfalls (Christiane F springs to mind)


Indeed. Some people have been awfully quick to judge and dismiss this project despite the fact that filming hasn't even started.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> is it really? Where does it say that? And why are they even bothering wiyh mentoring if their sole aim is to make as much money as possible?


several possibilities occur quite easily to me, and I would be surprised if one or two were so obscure they didn't pass through your mind too.


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## girasol (Mar 8, 2013)

Wanted to watch 'Top Girl' after that, found it here



Watching now...


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## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. Some people have been awfully quick to judge and dismiss this project despite the fact that filming hasn't even started.


Oh dear, oh dear. By the same token people should wait for building projects to begin construction before lodging objections.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 8, 2013)

girasol said:


> Edit: as a teen I remember reading cautionary book/films, which gave me insight into a lifestyle and made me aware of its pitfalls (Christiane F springs to mind)


 
Honestly, I'm 99.9% sure that if I'd seen that film as a teenager I would just have wanted to have beautiful long red hair, run around Berlin with in stilettoes with my works in a placcy bag and live a life that was so dramatic and on the edge that people even *died *from it. With a great soundtrack.

Teenagers are capable of glamourising all kinds of grimness, whether it's to make sense of a world their in, or one they're trying to imagine being in. Which is just one of the reasons why the 'IF' in your post is so important.


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## Rushy (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. Some people have been awfully quick to judge and dismiss this project despite the fact that filming hasn't even started.


I have no problem with the film. Not convinced that it sounds all that ground breaking but anyone trying to get funding is going to say that. Also not convinced that it won't, perhaps unintentionally, glamourise gangs - but such is the film industry.

I just don't understand the crowd-sourcing model in which the early investors get no return other than a T shirt and a party and any profits end up with, presumably, the industry financiers, producers, etc..

Normally it is the early investors who take the biggest share because they take the biggest risk. Here early investors seem to be being asked to put money in so that the next wave financiers can feel more comfortable about putting their own in. It really looks like crowd sourcers are being mugged.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh dear, oh dear. By the same token people should wait for building projects to begin construction before lodging objections.


Except that failed analogy falls flat on its arse because detailed planning applications are lodged way before a single brick is laid and people are given a very good ides of what the building will look like, courtesy of very detailed renders.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> Except that failed analogy falls flat on its arse because detailed planning applications are lodged way before a single brick is laid and people are given a very good ides of what the building will look like, courtesy of very detailed renders.


calm down dear, it's only an analogy


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## girasol (Mar 8, 2013)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Honestly, I'm 99.9% sure that if I'd seen that film as a teenager I would just have wanted to have beautiful long red hair, run around Berlin with in stilettoes with my works in a placcy bag and live a life that was so dramatic and on the edge that people even *died *from it. With a great soundtrack.
> 
> Teenagers are capable of glamourising all kinds of grimness, whether it's to make sense of a world their in, or one they're trying to imagine being in. Which is just one of the reasons why the 'IF' in your post is so important.


 
Maybe it depends on the teenager. Christiane F really doesn't glamourise anything, not if you stick with it an watch to the end, it's quite horrific. Because of it if there's one drug I NEVER touched


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## IC3D (Mar 8, 2013)

Good plot potential, lots of dark twists I imagine should be done as an opera. Kids are capable of independent thought I've heard.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 8, 2013)

girasol said:


> Maybe it depends on the teenager. Christiane F really doesn't glamourise it, not if you stick with it an watch to the end, it's quite horrific. Because of it if there's one drug I NEVER touched


 
I agree a lot was realistic, horrifically so. If you google Christiane F though, you'll find girl fans who want to make the pilgrimage to Berlin & check out the scene. It's a fine line - you had to be able to identify with the character to make the film watchable.


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## spanglechick (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> But films generally aren't all about reflecting the everyday. If you don't like the sound of this film that's fair enough, but I'm not going to slag it off without even seeing it because I think there are far more positives to this venture than most.


No - of course, but there are many, many other stories to tell about teenagers.  Look at Bend it Like Beckham, or any of the hundreds of American high-school movies...  Or if you want gritty and disturbing, what about a slice of gang life we really haven't seen before: the punishment gang-rapes of young girls... Or totally un-gang-related like abuse of children through churches who believe in demonic posession, or coping with poverty, or domestic abuse or homelessness or mental health or...

Kids are just kids, even kids from south London.  Except all the media wants to say about them is gang this and gang that.  And yes it's an important issue but there's so much else to say that isn't being said.  Any story you can tell about any young person, you could tell about kids from Brixton.  That really would be groundbreaking.


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## girasol (Mar 8, 2013)

Just finished watching Top Girl, to me it just showed a mostly mundane side of being a teen girl, no major drama, no glamourisation of gang culture. More what I'd expect things to be like.

The kids in this were into music and discovering sex, and filming some of it, it really was pretty ordinary. (And some shoplifting)


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 8, 2013)

editor said:


> What has that got to do with your opinion of how you think the film may look?


Do you really think that parents of dead children, or children now serving long sentences want films (and this is not a documentary...it's basically entertainment, however they like to dress it up) about their pain and what shattered their families? You really believe that they welcome it?


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

girasol said:
			
		

> Just finished watching Top Girl, to me it just showed a mostly mundane side of being a teen girl, no major drama, no glamourisation of gang culture. More what I'd expect things to be like.
> 
> The kids in this were into music and discovering sex, and filming some of it, it really was pretty ordinary. (And some shoplifting)



Yes, but that isn't the film we're discussing.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Do you really think that parents of dead children, or children now serving long sentences want films (and this is not a documentary...it's basically entertainment, however they like to dress it up) about their pain and what shattered their families? You really believe that they welcome it?


You seem to have your mind firmly made up that this is going to be an insensitive, exploitative movie that expresses no sympathy or understanding for the victims of gang culture. I find that all the more remarkable seeing as to date you've not seen one single second of footage.

I'm guessing you don't know much about the director either, because those kind of movies are hardly her hallmark:


> Rebecca has been making short films with young people in Brixton for the last ten years through her not-for-profit company Fierce Productions http://fierceproductions.co.uk. She uses drama workshops to generate material and to achieve her trademark: incredible performances from young, untrained actors. Many young people have been working with Rebecca and feeding their stories and experience into the writing of HONEYTRAP.


Perhaps I'll be proved wrong, but I'm happy to give this the benefit of the doubt, no matter how unfashionable that may seem around here.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2013)

Some background to the film-makers.


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## Maurice Picarda (Mar 8, 2013)

> "Generally in films girls are portrayed as either good girls or bad girls. The reality is, there's no such thing as just a good girl or a bad girl. It's much more deeper than that."


 
Wow. It _is_ groundbreaking. Traditional Manichean notions of feminine duality, challenged at last.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

'Collaborators' - which basically translates to they aren't even being paid for it! 

Who trousers the funding they're after then? 

This sort of thing boils my piss because they're going to 'change the lives' of a handful of youngsters without addressing why their lives are like this in the first place. All the kids need in life is some experience of the film industry and everything will be ok from here on in.


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## purenarcotic (Mar 8, 2013)

I think the project she runs sounds great, but from the trailer it looks like the same old rubbish tbh.  

But if it's giving kids some experience at the same time then good luck to her.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

If kids are doing it 'for experience' but presumably the director and producer are being paid, how is it any different than workfare?


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## girasol (Mar 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Yes, but that isn't the film we're discussing.



we are discussing a film that's not been made yet, so seeing some previous work might be a good guide  

Then again it might not...

... This fence,  'tis not very comfortable

On another note, all the people flaming this woman down, do you really see no value in what she's doing? She seems to know the community in depth and care about it.


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## thriller (Mar 8, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> It would be a lot braver, more groundbreaking and remarkable if this was a story about south London kids that wasn't about gangs at all.


 
that sounds crap. and boring.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

thriller said:


> that sounds crap. and boring.


 
Why? 

There's loads of good films that don't rely on violence to have a good narrative.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

girasol said:


> On another note, all the people flaming this woman down, do you really see no value in what she's doing? She seems to know the community in depth and care about it.


 
Of course I can. It just reminds me a bit of Boris Johnson though. Over Christmas I had my gf's brother telling me that he thought Boris was a 'genius' because he's opened up youth centres to try and combat gang violence. I just didn't even bother responding. They need prospects, jobs, not table fucking tennis. And despite what good she's doubtlessly doing, I just kind of file it off into the same pigeon hole, rightly or wrongly.


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## purenarcotic (Mar 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Of course I can. It just reminds me a bit of Boris Johnson though. Over Christmas I had my gf's brother telling me that he thought Boris was a 'genius' because he's opened up youth centres to try and combat gang violence. I just didn't even bother responding. They need prospects, jobs, not table fucking tennis. And despite what good she's doubtlessly doing, I just kind of file it off into the same pigeon hole, rightly or wrongly.


 
I don't see why there can't be both.  Perhaps you should volunteer at youth projects to see what it can do for young people, you are being incredibly dismissive of youth work and what it does.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 8, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> I don't see why there can't be both. Perhaps you should volunteer at youth projects to see what it can do for young people, you are being incredibly dismissive of youth work and what it does.


 
I'm not. I'm being dismissive of Boris Johnson offering to fling a sardine or two at the poor in order to placate them when he can't possibly offer anything more as his wealth relies on there being poverty. It's galling. And other people who dip their noses into poverty in order to extract something out of it for themselves. Is this woman a volunteer? If she is then I'll shut up. But I still don't like the perpetuating of stereotypes that these films get their appeal from.


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## girasol (Mar 8, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> I don't see why there can't be both.  Perhaps you should volunteer at youth projects to see what it can do for young people, you are being incredibly dismissive of youth work and what it does.



Also the confidence they get from being in projects like this could be the difference between having a dream and having no hope? Maybe naive, but sometimes these things do make a big difference.

I do see Citizen66's viewpoint, but maybe we need to be less jaded, and more optimistic, like da yoof !


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## editor (Mar 9, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> If kids are doing it 'for experience' but presumably the director and producer are being paid, how is it any different than workfare?


Because (a) it's totally voluntary and (b) some kids are actually mustard keen to get involved and ( c) it gives kids from poorer backgrounds the opportunity to get involved in interesting projects that might normally would be out of their reach.


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## editor (Mar 9, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Of course I can. It just reminds me a bit of Boris Johnson though. Over Christmas I had my gf's brother telling me that he thought Boris was a 'genius' because he's opened up youth centres to try and combat gang violence. I just didn't even bother responding. They need prospects, jobs, not table fucking tennis. And despite what good she's doubtlessly doing, I just kind of file it off into the same pigeon hole, rightly or wrongly.


So you're making the assumption that the enthusiastic kids who are being mentored through the filming process are unable/incapable of learning anything useful from it, yes?

I would have thought that this might provide a wonderful opportunity for some kids on the estates who are interested in getting involved in the film industry. Apparently, you seem to think it's no better than "table fucking tennis," despite what the kids have said in the video.


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## Citizen66 (Mar 9, 2013)

editor said:
			
		

> So you're making the assumption that the enthusiastic kids who are being mentored through the filming process are unable/incapable of learning anything useful from it, yes?
> 
> I would have thought that this might provide a wonderful opportunity for some kids on the estates who are interested in getting involved in the film industry. Apparently, you seem to think it's no better than "table fucking tennis," despite what the kids have said in the video.



Ive said people in areas suffering problems associated with poverty need real opportunities and prospects and not just stuff they can volunteer for. Not sure what irks you about that view. Also if the 'collaborators' aren't being paid but director and producer are profiting from it then it's an exploitative working relationship.


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## girasol (Mar 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Some background to the film-makers.




Based on that I'll contribute. This is the second crowd sourced movie I've contributed to - the other one is a documentary about the history of capoeira and its African origins (if anyone is interested in helping out with that pm me!)


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## boohoo (Mar 9, 2013)

Reading the info on the project, it says that the material for the films comes from drama workshops - I expect a workshop can be steered towards the topics you want to make a film about.

I would like to see a project which isn't focused on the whole gang culture theme. Is the only representation of young black people on the screen to  do with gangs? (or street dance - )

The costing for making the film looks right and I imagine any money gained would go onto further work. The young people involved will benefit from the experience. And I'm sure the work done with them is just part of a bigger programme of things for them to do.


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## girasol (Mar 9, 2013)

It's not just young black people who get involved in gang culture...Given the ethnic mix that is London, this has less to do with skin colour and more to do with socio-economic conditions.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 9, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I would like to see a project which isn't focused on the whole gang culture theme. Is the only representation of young black people on the screen to do with gangs? (or street dance - )


Ditto, but what I'm most worried about is that it's based on a real event and that's just shit for the families directly involved. I seriously doubt it has their blessing. I think it just piles on more pain.


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## Gramsci (Mar 9, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I just don't understand the crowd-sourcing model in which the early investors get no return other than a T shirt and a party and any profits end up with, presumably, the industry financiers, producers, etc..
> 
> Normally it is the early investors who take the biggest share because they take the biggest risk. Here early investors seem to be being asked to put money in so that the next wave financiers can feel more comfortable about putting their own in. It really looks like crowd sourcers are being mugged.


 
I was listening to a programme about African film. Crowd sourcing was discussed on it. Looks to me that Crowd Sourcing is partially a way to advertise a film. It gets it discussed before its made.

As on this thread. Crowd Sourcing does not give a return other than a T shirt. So the programme also discussed that this can be taking advantage of peoples good will.

Crowd Sourcing is the latest thing. 

What I think would help Crowd Sourcing is if it meant that the film makers entered a dialogue with the "Crowd" so that they could comment- as here- on the film as its being made. 

Financing film is controversial subject. It can be used as a vehicle for tax planning. So a canny investor can make sure that if a film does not make money they can write off it off in there tax. If it means that films get made then I do not see the problem.


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## Rushy (Mar 9, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Crowd Sourcing does not give a return other than a T shirt. So the programme also discussed that this can be taking advantage of peoples good will.
> 
> Crowd Sourcing is the latest thing.



There are similar funding sites for bands. People can back new bands whose music they like and who need cash for recording. If the required amount (50k I think) is raised the bands are guaranteed a contract. The difference is that the original investors retain an equity stake.


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## girasol (Mar 9, 2013)

Do people really expect some stake if they contribute $10, $20??? Really? What's happened to just helping something get done for the sake of it? Why does there have to be something in exchange?

I think that people who contribute real money do get to have a stake anyway (Producer?))

Edit: just read it more carefully... Maybe people contributing real money perhaps should have a share of the profits. Doesn't look like they do.  But then again maybe no profit is made.


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## spanglechick (Mar 9, 2013)

The theatre has a long tradition of this kind of funding. Theatrical funders are called angels.   Difference is that very little theatre makes money.  Unlike indie film, you can't sell on to bbc4 or get a dvd deal.  End of year awards ceremonies are no good to you if the play closed a month or more ago and everyone is doing something else. 

So it's been a long term need for theatre to benefit from altruism.


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## George & Bill (Mar 9, 2013)

editor said:


> Indeed. Some people have been awfully quick to judge and dismiss this project despite the fact that filming hasn't even started.


 
TBF, you did describe it as 'groundbreaking' in your thread title. I think a slightly more circumspect approach on your part would have produced a more nuanced response.

I suppose there are two approaches in deciding what project to pursue as a film-maker: one can either look at the totality of current and recent production, and decide objectively what is most needed at that particular time, or one can allow oneself to be inspired by the stories or events one happens to come into contact with. I don't think there is anything wrong per se with following the latter approach, but of course this way of working always leads to the danger that people will say, well, that might be interesting to you, but we've heard it all before.

I haven't personally seen any films of this type with a female protagonist. However, the situation reminds me of what Germaine Greer (and others no doubt) say about the difference between equality and liberation - on the one hand it's a sort of progress to show that girls can be central to this sort of story, but on the other, it may be that the whole genre was artistically bankrupt and socially unhelpful to start off with, and that such a film merely acts to provide parity of harm.


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## thriller (Mar 9, 2013)

Top Gal:


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> TBF, you did describe it as 'groundbreaking' in your thread title. I think a slightly more circumspect approach on your part would have produced a more nuanced response.


That was my initial reaction after seeing the video about the proposed film and watching the testimonies from the kids involved. That's only my opinion though, and others are free to form their own.


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## George & Bill (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> That was my initial reaction after seeing the video about the proposed film and watching the testimonies from the kids involved. That's only my opinion though, and others are free to form their own.


 
Then don't criticise other people for expressing an opinion! If there's enough for you to decide it's 'groundbreaking', there's enough for others to dcide it's a pile of shite - or, as I would see it, there's not really enough to support either of those views.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 10, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> What's 'groundbreaking' about it? lol
> 
> The use of untrained actors?


 
Yet another film depicting young urban kids as gangsters/fuck ups etc...


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## Gramsci (Mar 10, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Ive said people in areas suffering problems associated with poverty need real opportunities and prospects and not just stuff they can volunteer for. Not sure what irks you about that view. Also if the 'collaborators' aren't being paid but director and producer are profiting from it then it's an exploitative working relationship.


 
Looks to me that this is a real opportunity if it lives up to what is is said on her website for the film:




> What makes HONEYTRAP a different sort of animal
> Each film Rebecca makes through Fierce Productions is also a Training and Mentoring project, where young people work alongside a professional film crew.
> Previous Fierce Trainees have gone on to paid work in production, to be cast in BBC dramas and to make their own films. *Fierce Productions has been awarded £20,000 towards HONEYTRAP's Training and Mentoring Programme from South London trust the Walcot Foundation. http://www.walcotfoundation.org.uk*
> HONEYTRAP will provide a unique opportunity for young people to be part of making a feature film in their community. As well as helping some get a foot in the door of the film industry, working as part of a production team develops important transferable skills: scheduling and planning, time management, team-work and proactive thinking - as well as endurance!


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## Gramsci (Mar 10, 2013)

She says that:



> *We know HONEYTRAP is a contentious story. *It not only tackles difficult issues without easy solutions but it is very different from other recent UK films set in gang culture. HONEYTRAP will feel more like independent US films such as _Sin Nombre_, _Monster_ or _Boys Don’t Cry_. It will be cinematic and beautiful, capturing the yearning and obsessive fantasies that drive the story.


 
Also from Brixton Blog interview:




> Writer and director Rebecca Johnson has been making films looking at aspects of life in Brixton for the last 10 years through her company Fierce Productions. “This is a unique project and one I have immense pride in as a Brixton resident myself,” says Rebecca, “we often see the headlines without exploring the social pressures that make these incidents happen, and that’s what I hope to show. Honeytrap is a difficult story and explores issues without easy solutions, and I hope the film goes some way towards giving a voice to young women who are often overlooked in British film.”


 
There have been a few films out recently like "ill Manors" and "Bullet Boy" covering issue of gangs. This film is to see it from a teenage girls point of view. It could be an interesting film if done right. The director has a track record of working in the area. So this should not be exploitative film from the outside. 

Previous post Ed said the director might come on here. Be useful if she gave her side and answered some of the criticisms here.

editor


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## Citizen66 (Mar 10, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Previous post Ed said the director might come on here. Be useful if she gave her side and answered some of the criticisms here.
> 
> editor


 
I think he said producer, not director.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 10, 2013)

If it's got the blessing of the families directly involved, then fair enough. Otherwise I think it's pissing on their grief because there are so many victims in all this.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If it's got the blessing of the families directly involved, then fair enough. Otherwise I think it's pissing on their grief because there are so many victims in all this.


So you keep saying, but I would have thought it would be prudent to find out more before dismissing the whole thing as some sort of exploitative cash-in.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I think he said producer, not director.


I sent a message back inviting anyone involved in the film to contribute here.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 10, 2013)

I keep saying it because no-one else seems to give them a second thought.


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## IC3D (Mar 10, 2013)

Seeing as London is full of film production companies you'd think this might be a good opportunity for some young Londoners, y'know *takes off Boris wig and scrubs self*


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## Citizen66 (Mar 10, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I keep saying it because no-one else seems to give them a second thought.


 
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-for-crowdfunding.307309/page-2#post-12037937


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 10, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-for-crowdfunding.307309/page-2#post-12037937


Fair do's. I missed that because of the tiny 'there are more posts' which I often miss.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I keep saying it because no-one else seems to give them a second thought.


It's not a biopic and it's not a film about any individuals. It's a film "inspired by true events."


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 10, 2013)

I think that distinction won't make any difference to the families at all.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I think that distinction won't make any difference to the families at all.


So you keep saying, even when you've no idea what the script is or how much it will be drawing on real life events. It seems you're determined to rubbish this film from the start and I think that's rather a shame.


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## spanglechick (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> It's not a biopic and it's not a film about any individuals. It's a film "inspired by true events."


then why not write an original story?  Films 'inspired by true events' need to be changed to fit a cinematic narrative structure. Changing the events in a case like this surely runs enormous risks of misrepresenting what happened for some of the people involved or their families.  If you write an original screenplay, those risks are much, much reduced.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> then why not write an original story? Films 'inspired by true events' need to be changed to fit a cinematic narrative structure. Changing the events in a case like this surely runs enormous risks of misrepresenting what happened for some of the people involved or their families. If you write an original screenplay, those risks are much, much reduced.


Original stories can be "inspired" by real events.


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## spanglechick (Mar 10, 2013)

This winds me up, I have to say - both as a teacher at a Southwark girls' school where a very high proportion of students are entirely unrepresented by the media, and as a feminist:

_"I hope the film goes some way towards giving a voice to young women who are often overlooked in British film.”_

So, you want to tell an untold sory of young women who are overlooked? Because when we do see representations of these young women they are playing girlfriends and babymothers and gang hangers-on? (see kidulthood/adulthood/sket/attack the block/etc) Wow - what better way to redress that balance than to make a film all about a girl who defined herself, and who the case hinges upon her being the girlfriend of two young men, and who is involved in gang violence. Astonishing. A representation of south london girls we've never seen before. Where are the stories about south london girls who aren't involved in gangs, and who aren't defined by whose bloody girlfriend they are?


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## spanglechick (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Original stories can be "inspired" by real events.


But from the promotional film, this seems to be much more than that. Psycho was an original film inspired by the serial killer John Wayne Gacy...   whereas Monster - the film about Aileen Wournos (sp?) is 'based on real events'.   One is an original story, and the other is a dramatisation of real life.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> But from the promotional film, this seems to be much more than that..


That's your take on it. I think I'll wait to see something first.


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## spanglechick (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> That's your take on it. I think I'll wait to see something first.


absolutely. the finished film could be very different to how it's being sold in that film.  but that's what we have to go on for now.


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## RaverDrew (Mar 10, 2013)

Middle-class, liberal do-gooder, hipster film maker, wants to make some cliched "edgy" film all about the yoot who come from the ghetto down the road from her... and is begging for the cash.

How much is she paying herself out of this ?


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## George & Bill (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> That's your take on it. I think I'll wait to see something first.


 
Mate, you can't praise an as yet unmade film as 'groundbreaking' in your thread title, then when other people express an opposite view, tell them to wait until they've seen it. Think about it. Doesn't come over very well. Either have your say and let other people have theirs, or, if you want to be the oh-so-restrained voice of 'reserve judgement till you've seen it', then, well, reserve judgement till you've seen it.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 10, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Where are the stories about south london girls who aren't involved in gangs, and who aren't defined by whose bloody girlfriend they are?


 
It could be that there is an untold story to be told about girls & gangs though, and really from a a girls perspective. And if someone wants to make that film then fair enough. (I agree it would be more groundbreaking if it included girls who weren't involved with gangs, but maybe that couldn't be the hook and would have to be sneaked in?)

My Murder gets used on the educational bit of the BBC - presumably to be discussed in PHSE lessons or similar. I can well imagine girls watching that & saying that it doesn't tell the whole story, and there's more to it than that implies. My Murder is more of a straight reconstruction so it can only go so far.

But I am uncomfortable with the film being called 'Honeytrap', and as a cinematic & beautiful film inspired by true events - that makes it sounds as if it was inspired by the murder of Shakilus Townsend, and will be a straight sympathetic portrayal of the girl who is currently serving life for murder. I can see how - as Mrs Magpie says - that would be pissing on the grief of the families involved. When people discuss that murder I have even heard them refer to her as "the honeytrap girl" and everyone immediately knows which case it is. It may say it's not a biopic, but for me - it sounds too closely based.

It feels as though whatever comes out of the workshops & the mentoring - whether it's untold stories of girls who are or aren't involved in gangs, or who are but in different ways than one might expect - it's already been decided that it will be about 'the girlfriend', 'the honeytrap girl', that particular case.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 10, 2013)

Some of her other films here can be watched here: I am working my way though them.  Electric & the doc about Stockwell Park Estate look interesting.
I'm coming round to her but I still have reservations about the links to a specific and well known murder being too strong.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 10, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> If it's got the blessing of the families directly involved, then fair enough. Otherwise I think it's pissing on their grief because there are so many victims in all this.


 
I'm just tired of young people being depicted in such negative terms, they're not all roaming the streets shouting 'Ya get me doe' every five fucking minutes.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 10, 2013)

slowjoe said:


> Mate, you can't praise an as yet unmade film as 'groundbreaking' in your thread title, then when other people express an opposite view, tell them to wait until they've seen it. Think about it. Doesn't come over very well. Either have your say and let other people have theirs, or, if you want to be the oh-so-restrained voice of 'reserve judgement till you've seen it', then, well, reserve judgement till you've seen it.


 
It's as ground breaking as Attack the Block.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2013)

Love the way people are quick to pass on their damning, critical judgement about the film - without ever watching a single second of footage.


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## spawnofsatan (Mar 10, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> But from the promotional film, this seems to be much more than that. Psycho was an original film inspired by the serial killer John Wayne Gacy... whereas Monster - the film about Aileen Wournos (sp?) is 'based on real events'. One is an original story, and the other is a dramatisation of real life.


 
Ed Gein, Gacey was a lot later


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## George & Bill (Mar 10, 2013)

editor said:


> Love the way people are quick to pass on their damning, critical judgement about the film - without ever watching a single second of footage.



So how come you can praise it without seeing a single second then?


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## spanglechick (Mar 10, 2013)

spawnofsatan said:


> Ed Gein, Gacey was a lot later


thank you!


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## shygirl (Mar 10, 2013)

Well, this woman must be genuine and well respected, cos some of the young people supporting her wouldn't give her the time of day if they thought/knew she wasn't genuine.


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## Gramsci (Mar 10, 2013)

Ms Ordinary said:


> It could be that there is an untold story to be told about girls & gangs though, and really from a a girls perspective. And if someone wants to make that film then fair enough. (I agree it would be more groundbreaking if it included girls who weren't involved with gangs, but maybe that couldn't be the hook and would have to be sneaked in?)
> 
> .


 
Films can be based on real life events in a loose way or based on a specific incident.

Ken Loach film "Sweet Sixteen" told the tale of a teenage boy trying to do a drugs deal. I think its one of his better films. It is purely fictional. 

Another recent film based on real events is the Irish film "What Richard Did". This was based on a specific incident. It did cause controversy in Eire as it was clear this was based on an actual event that was recent. 

They are very different kinds of film. 

I think it depends on how the director/ writer use the material and what they are trying to say.

Loach/ Laverty make films that have a more or less clear political position. "What Richard Did" is a very different kind of film. Dark and leaving the viewer to interpret what the film is about. 

If the director is loosely basing the premise of the film on a real event and then working with local young people in a collaborative way to say something about being a teenage girl in Brixton then I do not have a problem with that. 

The main issue that has come up on this thread is that there have been a lot of recent films about gangs and young people. But no films about life in London that does not include gangs. As most young people are not involved in gangs.

Today I saw a film about a girl in London that did not contain gangs- "Broken" It had just about every other social issue you can think of but not gangs. A good film and for my 2 friends very moving.


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## RaverDrew (Mar 10, 2013)

These films are nearly always cringeworthy as fuck


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## Gramsci (Mar 10, 2013)

RaverDrew said:


> These films are nearly always cringeworthy as fuck


 
And which ones of the 3 I mention have you seen?


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## spanglechick (Mar 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> The main issue that has come up on this thread is that there have been a lot of recent films about gangs and young people. But no films about life in London that does not include gangs. As most young people are not involved in gangs.
> 
> Today I saw a film about a girl in London that did not contain gangs- "Broken" It had just about every other social issue you can think of but not gangs. A good film and for my 2 friends very moving.


will keep an eye out.


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## MillwallShoes (Mar 11, 2013)

as has been said, how sad it is that these are starting to be the only representation of youth in london. it's a dangerous game, too. if media is a "mirror", then these kids must look into it, and not recognise themselves (because most kids in london are just normal kids). sadly, is there not a chance that some will adjust themselves so they fit the image in the mirror? i know i'd feel a bit morally uneasy about making the lives of these kids fit some sort of entertainment structure.

that said, there's always been gangster movies, godfather, etc. however, the context these films are made in make them dodgy - if there was a variety of media representing kids in london, then it'd be different. instead it's the same old depressing message, no matter how "insightful" (although how insightful can they be as to why these kids end up like they do? in 90 minutes? seriously doubt it) they are.


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## girasol (Mar 11, 2013)

MillwallShoes said:


> as has been said, how sad it is that these are starting to be the only representation of youth in london. it's a dangerous game, too. if media is a "mirror", then these kids must look into it, and not recognise themselves (because most kids in london are just normal kids). sadly, is there not a chance that some will adjust themselves so they fit the image in the mirror? i know i'd feel a bit morally uneasy about making the lives of these kids fit some sort of entertainment structure.
> 
> that said, there's always been gangster movies, godfather, etc. however, the context these films are made in make them dodgy - if there was a variety of media representing kids in london, then it'd be different. instead it's the same old depressing message, no matter how "insightful" (although how insightful can they be as to why these kids end up like they do? in 90 minutes? seriously doubt it) they are.


 
So, you are saying that young people are that easily impressionable, and that if they watch something they will try and emulate it? So... violent films and games are indeed a very bad thing too, and the world around them isn't their main influence, it's what they watch in the cinema that moulds them?

I'm only bringing this up because I've seen many threads where some people argue about the influence of media/games, and others argue that there is no influence. And of course, there is some, but where is the line? Are some of you saying that because most of the movies about London are about gangs then kids will join gangs? As far as I know movies have never been the reason for anyone to get into crime... I could be wrong 

I'm thinking back at the movies I watched when I was a teenager, to see if any of them had any influence in choices I made...  So far, nothing.  Will keep on thinking.


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## MillwallShoes (Mar 11, 2013)

of course it's not the only reason, but i would think if it is the only representation out there, then it can't help, can it?


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## girasol (Mar 11, 2013)

MillwallShoes said:


> of course it's not the only reason, but i would think if it is the only representation out there, then it can't help, can it?


 
Well, the problem is, if they made movies about ordinary people, sadly, a lot of people wouldn't watch it, because they would think of it as 'boring'... People seem to want to go to the cinema for 'greek tragedy', extreme stories. Would anyone go watch a movie about a South London girl who does well in school and gets a great job in the Science sector?  (I wish they would go and watch it!)


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## Citizen66 (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Love the way people are quick to pass on their damning, critical judgement about the film - without ever watching a single second of footage.



None of which would have happened had you not offered it up for sacrifice. 

It was entirely avoidable.


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 11, 2013)

girasol said:


> Well, the problem is, if they made movies about ordinary people, sadly, a lot of people wouldn't watch it, because they would think of it as 'boring'... People seem to want to go to the cinema for 'greek tragedy', extreme stories. Would anyone go watch a movie about a South London girl who does well in school and gets a great job in the Science sector?  (I wish they would go and watch it!)


 
There is the possibility that with a feature length film, less extreme & less frequently represented stories can be given a bit of room - even if they couldn't carry a film on their own.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> None of which would have happened had you not offered it up for sacrifice.
> 
> It was entirely avoidable.


I'm not going to stop posting up details of interesting projects for fear of your negativity, ignorance and short-sightedness.


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## spanglechick (Mar 11, 2013)

girasol said:


> Well, the problem is, if they made movies about ordinary people, sadly, a lot of people wouldn't watch it, because they would think of it as 'boring'... People seem to want to go to the cinema for 'greek tragedy', extreme stories. Would anyone go watch a movie about a South London girl who does well in school and gets a great job in the Science sector?  (I wish they would go and watch it!)


But there are alternative narratives.  If we look at how America represents teenagers on film, there's a massive spectrum from romcom to gore.  Intelligent stuff too, like election, ghost world, donnie darko. Or harder hitting stuff like girl interrupted.  It's entirely possible to tell stories like that about south London young women.  

First rule of storytelling: there needs to be a problem to solve.  That's why the example of 'bright girl does well, succeeds' sounds dull.  But show her overcoming an obstacle (prejudice, illness, abuse, identity issues, poverty, family difficulties... ) and you begin to have a story.  Make us care about her, make the problem really high-stakes and you should be able to make an audience care about what happens.  An ordinary person in an extraordinary situation.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

This is just one film made by one person who happens to focus on a certain sort of story which involves local youth and mentoring. I'm sure why she's being blamed for the entire output of the film industry.


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## spanglechick (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> This is just one film made by one person who happens to focus on a certain sort of story which involves local youth and mentoring. I'm sure why she's being blamed for the entire output of the film industry.


Don't be so melodramatic! 

We're talking about this film.  To explain our opinions both sides of the debate are referring to the context.  

Thing is, people can make films about whatever they bloody like.  The reason this angle is being raised is because she's claiming to shine a light on girls whose story doesn't get told.  And yup, she is, in a very specific way.  But it's like saying that in the postwar period, when previously films had been about the wealthy upper classes, someone making a Norman wisdom film was meaningfully telling the story of the working classes.  Some working class people are chirpy salt-of-the-earth, happy-go-lucky types, but most aren't -and where a section of society is under-represented in the media, saying that a film featuring a not unknown and very unusual minority is somehow redressing the balance is a bit of a kick in the teeth.  

I mentioned 'sket' up there, and ive no doubt this film will be much better... But I generally leave films like that alone because they're not claiming some quasi feminist agenda.


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

girasol said:


> Do people really expect some stake if they contribute $10, $20??? Really? What's happened to just helping something get done for the sake of it? Why does there have to be something in exchange?
> 
> I think that people who contribute real money do get to have a stake anyway (Producer?))
> 
> Edit: just read it more carefully... Maybe people contributing real money perhaps should have a share of the profits. Doesn't look like they do. But then again maybe no profit is made.


 
I have no problem with someone giving £10 to support a project which they think is worthwhile. What I have a problem with is £75,000 being sought as up front capital to reassure industry investors of the security of their own investments on what is ultimately a commercial project, albeit one with a positive social conscience. Whether that is raised from individuals giving a tenner or £500 or £5,000 each (their site has donor categories of up to 15,000), £75,000 is a lot of money which they are getting for nothing other than T-shirts and a couple of party invites.

That the project _probably_ won't turn a profit is irrelevant. The question is, what happens to the profit if it does. The top ten returns on low budget films are between 5,500% and 655,000% which is one of the reasons why commercial companies invest in them. Precious (not an example of low budget/high return but more like the proposed drama category)  was picked up at the Sundance Festival and grossed about $65million at the box office. It sold 1.5million DVDs in it's first week of release.

Even if the crowdsource investors behind the first £75,000 don't get any return themselves, it should be clear how that £75,000 will be treated. I think it should be guaranteed that the upfront £75,000 (the most risky capital) will be treated as a seed investment and awarded a significantly higher equity share per £1 than any later investors. It should then be clear where any profit from that equity share will go. It does not have to go back to the crowdsourcers - it could go to nominated charities, like those supporting their apprentice scheme. But if it is going to the film-makers, producers or commercial investors, the Crowdsourcer is being mugged.

My criticism is not of the film or film makers but of the Crowdsourcing model as I think it can exploit goodwill.  Of course, the makers of Honeytrap may have already considered this and made arrangements to deal with the (less likely) profit scenario - they're just not clear to me.


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## girasol (Mar 11, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> But there are alternative narratives. If we look at how America represents teenagers on film, there's a massive spectrum from romcom to gore. Intelligent stuff too, like election, ghost world, donnie darko. Or harder hitting stuff like girl interrupted. It's entirely possible to tell stories like that about south London young women.
> 
> First rule of storytelling: there needs to be a problem to solve. That's why the example of 'bright girl does well, succeeds' sounds dull. But show her overcoming an obstacle (prejudice, illness, abuse, identity issues, poverty, family difficulties... ) and you begin to have a story. Make us care about her, make the problem really high-stakes and you should be able to make an audience care about what happens. An ordinary person in an extraordinary situation.


 
yep, but it seems no one wants to do it, probably because they think there wouldn't be a market. Submarine was a lovely teen movie (not set in London though), but producers are generally greedy? I don't know... I suspect most of their choices are made on how much audience they will get, bottom line: money.

But of course, I agree there should be alternative narratives. Cinema audiences need to start showing they like those sort of movies by going to watch them, at the cinema! 'Attack the Block' did well, but it had gang culture in there too, though not its main theme.  'Ill Manors' is an adult movie, so not sure it should count as something that impacts teenagers, although some may watch it. 

Maybe London can't escape gang culture, it will always be there in some form or another because it's part of the city? Even where we live, it's there, the kids know the gang names and where they are, teenagers lives is one way or another impacted by it. (Unless they go to private schools and are driven around and not allowed to freely interact, and even then its impact is felt by their absence from local life, through their parents' fear and their effective removal from the local community).

There's been variety of tv programmes for teens though, Misfits, Skins, In Betweeners (don't fool yourselves in thinking they were for adults , the teenagers were watching it, even when not allowed to at home  ). In terms of tv there's not a lot on gangs I don't think?


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

I've happily slung cash towards projects I care about and couldn't care less about any possible return, whatever the circumstances.

I do it because I want the project to succeed, and if by some miracle it ends up turning a profit then they can do what they like the cash because they went to all the effort of creating something I wanted to see.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

girasol said:


> yep, but it seems no one wants to do it, probably because they think there wouldn't be a market. Submarine was a lovely teen movie (not set in London though), but producers are generally greedy? I don't know... I suspect most of their choices are made on how much audience they will get, bottom line: money.


Submarine was a fabulous film.


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> I've happily slung cash towards projects I care about and couldn't care less about any possible return, whatever the circumstances.
> 
> I do it because I want the project to succeed, and if by some miracle it ends up turning a profit then they can do what they like the cash because they went to all the effort of creating something I wanted to see.


Good for you. But given that you are usually against speculative investors encouraged by enourmous tax breaks making a killing to spend on expensive cars and houses, I am surprised.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Good for you. But given that you are usually against speculative investors encouraged by enourmous tax breaks making a killing to spend on expensive cars and houses, I am surprised.


Not entirely sure that's a fair or reasonable comparison, but there you go.


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Submarine was a fabulous film.


One of my favourites in a long time.


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Not entirely sure that's a fair or reasonable comparison, but there you go.


Because..?


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## girasol (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Submarine was a fabulous film.


 
yeah and we need more like that, but in London


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## ymu (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> But films generally aren't all about reflecting the everyday. If you don't like the sound of this film that's fair enough, but I'm not going to slag it off without even seeing it because I think there are far more positives to this venture than most.


Lots of films get made about the everyday, they just rarely cast black actors in roles that weren't written 'black'. The Inbetweeners and Girls are both depictions of 'everyday' life for young people, but none of them are black. And that's fine, not every group of friends includes a black person, but where are the stories about young black people not in gangs (or indeed, young white people who are)?

You're right that this project appears to be one of the better ones of its type, but I'd like to know if the kids chose the gang theme, and if so, how much that reflects the reality of their lives rather than an obvious cliche.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Because..?


Because I don't know what this film proposal has to do with, "speculative investors encouraged by enormous tax breaks making a killing to spend on expensive cars and houses".


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Because I don't know what this film proposal has to do with, "speculative investors encouraged by enormous tax breaks making a killing to spend on expensive cars and houses".


As I said, I have a problem with the financial set up not being clear - not the film proposal. Try not to twist it.

​


> *Crowdfunding is crucial to our overall plan because:* ​We will be in a stronger position vis-a-vis industry financiers once we have raised a significant chunk of money through crowdfunding. It not only makes film financiers feel they are taking less of a risk, it also shows them how much support we have - and that audiences are interested in seeing this story on the screen.​​


​ 

So who are these financiers? We don't know (and probably neither do they at this stage).

Just as one common example of industry financiers, which HMRC is only now questioning but has not made illegal, are "sideways investment schemes". They set up film financing companies for the benefit of wealthy investors looking for massive tax breaks:

Partner A invests £1 million into a partnership
£200,000 is cash from his own resources.
£800,000 is by way of loan finance as part of the scheme.

The objective is to claim loss relief of £1 million.
At a tax rate of 40 per cent this equates to £400,000 cash tax.

There are plenty of different set ups.

And for clarity I say again - I am not accusing them of anything. I am saying that on the face of it I don't like the set up but it might just not be clear. I don't see why you feel the need to defend them tooth and nail against what I think is a perfectly reasonable question: in the event of the film being profitable, if the Crowdsourcers providing the seed capital are not going to benefit financially themselves, who will?

You appear to be dismissing my question on the basis that you personally are happy to not know. I would much rather have clarity. Crowd sourcing is a great and powerful development. But if it becomes tainted by getting a reputation for providing free seed capital for commercial projects backed by profitable investment schemes it will lose favour.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> As I said, I have a problem with the financial set up not being clear - not the film proposal. Try not to twist it.


Except it was you bringing up people spending vast sums of money on "expensive cars and houses."  

This site was funded by crowdfunding before the phrase was even invented. Thankfully not everyone is as cynical as you otherwise we would have folded years ago.


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## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> But there are alternative narratives. If we look at how America represents teenagers on film, there's a massive spectrum from romcom to gore. Intelligent stuff too, like election, ghost world, donnie darko. Or harder hitting stuff like girl interrupted. It's entirely possible to tell stories like that about south London young women.
> 
> First rule of storytelling: there needs to be a problem to solve. That's why the example of 'bright girl does well, succeeds' sounds dull. But show her overcoming an obstacle (prejudice, illness, abuse, identity issues, poverty, family difficulties... ) and you begin to have a story. Make us care about her, make the problem really high-stakes and you should be able to make an audience care about what happens. An ordinary person in an extraordinary situation.


 
And you have just made a girl not ordinary with problems you have stated.

Can be just as much of a stereotyped look at girls real lives as using gangs.

I know someone who grew up on an estate in South London. Apart from her parents splitting up she did not have the problems u state. Or not to an "extraordinary"  "high stakes" level.


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## ymu (Mar 11, 2013)

Did she come into intimate contact with gang violence?


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Except it was you bringing up people spending vast sums of money on "expensive cars and houses."





editor said:


> This site was funded by crowdfunding before the phrase was even invented. Thankfully not everyone is as cynical as you otherwise we would have folded years ago.


 
Once again you are quoting selectively to muddy the issue. I said _"__given that you are usually against speculative investors encouraged by enormous__ tax breaks making a killing to spend on expensive cars and houses, I am surprised [that you don't care where the profit goes]."_ I then gave an example of how film finance companies are very often set up and used to avoid tax in enormous amounts for wealthy clients.

We are both in a position of ignorance about the financial set up other than that they intend to use industry financiers who they hope will be reassured by the up front investment from crowdsourcers.

I'm simply asking for some clarity.
You seem determined to say that it is cynical to ask for clarity and hold U75 up as proof. What industry financiers did you use? And what plans do you have to sell it? None - I bet.


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> What industry financiers did you use? None - I bet.


It's regular and very gratefully received contributions from posters, plus volunteers giving their time for free.


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> It's regular and very gratefully received contributions from posters, plus volunteers giving their time for free.


Exactly. It is very different to funding a film using financiers and then seeking distribution deals.


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## Winot (Mar 11, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> First rule of storytelling: there needs to be a problem to solve. That's why the example of 'bright girl does well, succeeds' sounds dull. But show her overcoming an obstacle (prejudice, illness, abuse, identity issues, poverty, family difficulties... ) and you begin to have a story. Make us care about her, make the problem really high-stakes and you should be able to make an audience care about what happens. An ordinary person in an extraordinary situation.


 
Perhaps she should do a film about an independent film maker trying to obtain crowdfunding from Urban75.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Once again you are quoting selectively to muddy the issue. I said _"__given that you are usually against speculative investors encouraged by enormous__ tax breaks making a killing to spend on expensive cars and houses, I am surprised [that you don't care where the profit goes]."_ I then gave an example of how film finance companies are very often set up and used to avoid tax in enormous amounts for wealthy clients.


Once again, I don't feel this hypothetical strawman stuff about loaded speculators going off and buying expensive cars and houses for themselves in a crowd-sourced cash frenzy is even slightly relevant to_ *this *_*discussion.*

There may be an argument about the ethics of profit-making crowdsourced projects but -  come on - this is hardly a film that's going to rake in zillions, or is it one aimed at creating profit above all else, is it?


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## Winot (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Once again, I don't feel this strawman stuff about loaded speculators going off and buying expensive cars and houses is even slightly relevant to_ *this *_*discussion.*


 
OK forget the stuff you've quoted.  The point Rushy is making still stands:

1.  It's not clear what financial model is being adopted here.
2.  One possible financial model could result in later investors making money off the back of the initial crowdfunder investors, who get nothing in return.
3.  It would be good if they could be clearer about the financial model to reassure potential crowdfunders that this wasn't the case.
4.  None of this prevents anyone donating a tenner if they want to and they are not bothered about a return.
5.  None of this is a criticism of the proposed film itself.

What's controversial about wanting a bit of clarity?

Honestly Ed, you are needlessly defensive sometimes.


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> Once again, I don't feel this strawman stuff about loaded speculators going off and buying expensive cars and houses is even slightly relevant to_ *this *_*discussion.*


 
It is such a shame that you put so much effort into aggressively trivialising the views and questions of others rather than allowing open discussion.

ETA - Ed edited his post (quoted in full above) adding a paragraph accepting there may be an argument about the way crowdsource projects are funded only after both Winot and I had responded to his blanket dismissal. That's poor because it makes us look like we were selectively quoting him.

But glad that he accepts the argument is not nonsense even if he is inexpicably suggesting that it is only a theoretical argument and not applicable to this case.


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## spanglechick (Mar 11, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> And you have just made a girl not ordinary with problems you have stated.
> 
> Can be just as much of a stereotyped look at girls real lives as using gangs.
> 
> I know someone who grew up on an estate in South London. Apart from her parents splitting up she did not have the problems u state. Or not to an "extraordinary"  "high stakes" level.



For sure.  But there needs to be something to overcome,or there is no story.  And "high stakes" is a relative term.  The events of submarine, great film, are nominally low stakes stuff, by and large, but high stakes to the protagonist.  If nobody gives a shit either way, then often, neither will the audience.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It is such a shame that you put so much effort into aggressively trivialising the views and questions of others rather than allowing open discussion.
> 
> ETA - Ed edited his post (quoted in full above) adding a paragraph accepting there may be an argument about the way crowdsource projects are funded only after both Winot and I had responded to his blanket dismissal. That's poor because it makes us look like we were selectively quoting him.
> 
> But glad that he accepts the argument is not nonsense even if he is inexpicably suggesting that it is only a theoretical argument and not applicable to this case.


Actually, it's because my browser froze but why you're assuming that anything I say about this _particular film_ - you know, the one this thread is about - should automatic apply to every other crowd sourced project in the universe is beyond me.


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> why you're assuming that anything I say about this _particular film_ - you know, the one this thread is about - should automatic apply to every other crowd sourced project in the universe is beyond me.


I was asking about this film - as is abundantly clear from my posts.
You have given no reason why you think what I have asked is not applicable to this film, other than that I am cynical.
Which is your usual habit of turning discussion into a personal matter- e.g. the reason you are wrong is because of your own problems.
Which suggests that you are floundering, as usual.

Next you will accuse me of bullying you again because I would not accept you trivialising my POV.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I was asking about this film - as is abundantly clear from my posts.
> You have given no reason why you think what I have asked is not applicable to this film, other than that I am cynical.
> Which is your usual habit of turning discussion into a personal matter- e.g. the reason you are wrong is because of your own problems.
> Which suggests that you are floundering, as usual.
> ...


You really are quite unpleasant. I answered your question.  Go try and stir up personal shit elsewhere, because I'm not interested.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> What's controversial about wanting a bit of clarity?


Then why not write to them and ask if you're serious about investing in the film?


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## Rushy (Mar 11, 2013)

editor said:


> You really are quite unpleasant.






> I answered your question.


Let's agree to differ.



> Go try and stir up personal shit elsewhere,


What - you mean somewhere posters are free to express opinions with which the head mod doesn't agree?



> because I'm not interested.


Uh-huh.


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## shygirl (Mar 11, 2013)

Mrs Magpie and a few others were right, the film is based on the girl who 'set up' Shakilus Townsend (see this from Rebecca's website)


_Origins of the story and why I want to tell it._
_The starting point for the film is the case of Samantha Joseph._

_In July 2008, Samantha led sixteen-year-old Shakilus Townsend into an ambush, where he was murdered by her boyfriend and his gang. This took place in a South London suburb in the early afternoon, in full sight of residents._

_HONEYTRAP_

_is not a factual retelling of this case. Instead it uses it as a point of departure to delve into the mind of a young girl like Samantha to find out how she could arrive at such a place._

_When such ‘senseless’ cases are reported, almost weekly, in the media, the isolated facts and blank-eyed mugshots paint a picture of young people without emotions._

_In my work with young people in South London over the last ten years, I have seen that the truth is much more complex and tragic. Young people very often get involved in violence as a way of trying to control powerful conflicting emotions they don’t know how to process or deal with._


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## shygirl (Mar 11, 2013)

Hey, I only wrote the first line of the last post


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 11, 2013)

Are you using a phone shygirl? Odd stuff can happen with a phone on the boards


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## George & Bill (Mar 12, 2013)

As an aside, I think there should be a point of order on this thread to say that 'crowdsourcing' is not the same thing as 'crowdfunding'. The latter, as in the case of this project, is when a project seeks multiple small donations from punters hoping to see it succeed, usually without offering any formal stake/equity share but sometimes offering some small perk or kickback as an incentive. The former is when the actual content/makeup of a project/document/idea are sourced by asking punters at large to submit contributions - in the form of ideas, rather than cash.


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## Frumious B. (Mar 20, 2013)

The Evening Standard reports that Johnson raised ten grand in three days http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ew-new-film-through-crowdfunding-8541825.html



> A new film inspired by true stories of gang culture in south London is to be shot in Brixton after raising £10,000 online in just three days through “crowdfunding”.
> Writer-director Rebecca Johnson secured the donations after posting a video of herself online standing in Stockwell Park Estate, where she plans to shoot the film, appealing for money.
> Johnson, who is looking to cast young people from the area, won widespread acclaim for her short film Top Girl.
> So far the project, which is set to start filming in August, has attracted the attention of investors including Laurie Holden, star of hit US TV series The Walking Dead.
> Johnson said: “This is a unique project and one I have immense pride in as a Brixton resident.”


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## Rushy (Mar 20, 2013)

They are actually up to 28,000 (not sure if it is $ as written on the site, or £).
Someone has put in a 15,000 donation and three people have put in $1,500 each.


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## Winot (Mar 20, 2013)

If I put in that kind of money I'd certainly want some kind of return.


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## shygirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Filming has started, it was outside the Academy earlier.  I didn't take kindly to being asked to move by them, on the pretext that I might get run over.  Shortly after that, I witnessed an elderly woman with shopping bags being asked to divert slightly so that they could continue with their filming.  The woman didn't want to change her route and it wasn't until I suggested we ring Lambeth licensing that the guy allowed her to go on her way.


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## girasol (Sep 25, 2013)

What's wrong with changing the route a little bit so someone can do some filming?  Is the world that much of a mean place?


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## shygirl (Sep 25, 2013)

She was elderly, a bit confused and didn't want to cross the busy road.


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## purenarcotic (Sep 25, 2013)

Why didn't they just pause for a moment and let her pass through.


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## shakespearegirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Film sets have to be very restrictive about allowing access. There is lots of valuable equipment and allowing public access can impact upon your insurance should anything happen to them or to your kit. Also, if you pause for everyone who wants access the shoot will drag on. They are scheduled very tightly and the smallest disruption can throw it all out. 

They would have paid a license to the company that now manage filming permits in Lambeth, which will generally give them exclusive access to an area. Or access with an agreed method of public access (if you block a road you may have to re-open it every 10 minutes or so to allow built up traffic to pass).

That said, an experienced runner or location manager would be a fool to make an issue of a little old lady with shopping. They should have got someone to escort her home with her bags and avoided the fuss. 

A good location manager makes all the difference between a shoot that can get on with locals and one that just alienates them!


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## girasol (Sep 5, 2014)

Good news for Honeytrap (2:00 in) - Selected for BFI London Festival 

"Rebecca has also been nominated for the 'Best British Newcomer' Award - the ceremony takes place on October 18th."


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## editor (Oct 3, 2014)

The film will be showing in the Ritzy on Fri 17th October.







Brixton-based Honeytrap film to feature in BFI London Film Festival screenings at the Ritzy, Thurs 9th to Sun 19th October


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## editor (Mar 9, 2015)

Update: Brixton feature film on gangs from a girl’s point of view ‘HoneyTrap’ gets a cinema release date of 8th May


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## editor (May 7, 2015)

And here it is, at the Ritzy:



And it's picking up positive reviews too:



> Honeypot also links the problem to a social crisis. Ignoring the commentary on materialism and looting that drove the debate during the London riots in the summer of 2011, Johnson cites a broken society and love as the reasons why her lead character Layla gets involved in acting as bait for a gang murder.
> 
> Both films indicate that cinema is finally starting to take girl gangs seriously.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...dern-life-in-britain-and-france-10227115.html





> Honeytrap is a smart, moving and emotional film which keeps you engaged from beginning to end. It’s great to finally have an “urban” film that feels natural and doesn’t go over the top in its storytelling.
> http://www.flavourmag.co.uk/honeytrap-film-review/





> Overall Honeytrap is a successful, yet tragic, coming of age film about a girl who has few positive options and influences in her life. Rebecca Johnson was not always successful fully fleshing out some of the supporting characters in the film, but she did an excellent job showcasing Sula in a rich and complex main character. Naomi Ryan was also a standout in the film as Layla’s emotionally distant mother.
> http://www.flickeringmyth.com/2015/05/movie-review-honeytrap-2014.html



Well done to all involved.


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## BigMoaner (May 7, 2015)

i;ve got an idea for a film about gangs - it could focus on the people who have been affected by them - instead of the people in them. then you'll really see how much of a problem it is.


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## Citizen66 (May 7, 2015)

The people in them are also affected by them.


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## editor (May 7, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i;ve got an idea for a film about gangs - it could focus on the people who have been affected by them - instead of the people in them. then you'll really see how much of a problem it is.


I think you need to read a bit more about the film.


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## Nanker Phelge (May 7, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i;ve got an idea for a film about gangs - it could focus on the people who have been affected by them - instead of the people in them. then you'll really see how much of a problem it is.



How would your story go then?


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2015)

BigMoaner said:


> i;ve got an idea for a film about gangs - it could focus on the people who have been affected by them - instead of the people in them. then you'll really see how much of a problem it is.


not much of an idea tbh.


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## Pickman's model (May 7, 2015)

Nanker Phelge said:


> How would your story go then?


badly


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## George & Bill (Aug 16, 2015)

editor said:


> And here it is, at the Ritzy:
> 
> View attachment 71201
> 
> ...



The one from the Independent looks like an interesting roundup, but the whole premise is completely wrong - having just watched it, I can't say that this film is about 'girl gangs' at all (the protagonist has some trouble with other girls, but not really in the context of a gang). It's not really about boy gangs either - it's about a hip-hop crew/group of friends who decide to murder a boy they know because he has been spending time with a girl their leader wants control over (the protagonist). 

I found it a strange film. I didn't get any sense of the feelings that were leading up to the outcome. The overwrought piano music began to jar pretty quickly, and combined with the soft-focus cross-fades gave the thing a strangely Twin Peaks/80s US TV soap feel.


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## CH1 (Nov 8, 2017)

This film was on London Live (Freeview 8) tonight.
Gave it a gander between Newsnight and the Sky News papers.
Seemed a bit of an archive piece in a way. Like this is now more Thornton Heath than Brixton.
Even the locale on Stockwell Park estate (or Myatts Fields north perhaps) has changed dramatically due to degeneration.

It definitely was all shot in Brixton though (assuming this includes Brockwell Park).

To me it lacked the menace of the film "SW9" - which almost looked like "Heart of Darkness" - Coldharbour Lane


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## GarveyLives (Nov 11, 2017)

CH1 said:


> ... Seemed a bit of an archive piece in a way. _Like this is now more *Thornton Heath* than Brixton_ ...



... that is probably because it is largely a dramatisiation of the murder of *Shakilus Townsend* in *Thornton Heath* ...

'Honeytrap' girl and gang locked up for Shakilus Townsend murder

How lovestruck boy was lured to his death

Honeytrap killer brags about prison ‘holiday’

Shakilus Townsend murderer - involved in drugs and attacks in jail - fails in bid for early release

​


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 11, 2017)

Melodramatic music!


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## Gramsci (Nov 11, 2017)

GarveyLives said:


> ... that is probably because it is largely a dramatisiation of the murder of *Shakilus Townsend* in *Thornton Heath* ...
> 
> 'Honeytrap' girl and gang locked up for Shakilus Townsend murder
> 
> ...




Well that is a depressing read. Scum like this like this need to be locked up and the key thrown away. I have friends who grew up around South London and they were never in gangs doing this kind of shit.


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## CH1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> Well that is a depressing read. Scum like this like this need to be locked up and the key thrown away. I have friends who grew up around South London and they were never in gangs doing this kind of shit.



But isn't it also depressing that this type of subject material is entertainment.

And it has been for generations (remember *Angels with Dirty Faces* - Cagney and Bogart).

The difference now is that if the director introduced a moral preachy dimension it is ridiculed.

I am a big fan of Gillian Tett who used to be on TV every night during the financial crash.
She propounds a theory that we are excessively fragmented into "Silos"
The Silo Effect by Gillian Tett review – a subversive manifesto
This could equally apply to gangs as to financiers who couldn;t care less about unemployment or wage levels.

In my view it would be interesting to try a five year experiment of turning off mobile phones and social media so everyone HAS to relate to people around them physically and can't arrange lynchings of defaulting gang members so easily.


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## CH1 (Nov 11, 2017)

GarveyLives said:


> ... that is probably because it is largely a dramatisiation of the murder of *Shakilus Townsend* in *Thornton Heath* ...
> 
> 'Honeytrap' girl and gang locked up for Shakilus Townsend murder
> 
> ...



The film-maker clearly did a good job then. Thank you for the references.


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## Gramsci (Nov 11, 2017)

CH1 said:


> But isn't it also depressing that this type of subject material is entertainment.
> 
> And it has been for generations (remember *Angels with Dirty Faces* - Cagney and Bogart).
> 
> ...




I do relate physically to working class (black and white in London) . Whilst they generally arent keen on cops and arent bothered by some levels of crime this kind of violence turned on ones own community isnt approved of. 

Its also not a matter of social media. Some people grew up with people on both sides of the fence in crime terms. 

I help a white van man from east end sometimes. Nice bloke. As docks were closed ending up as Canary Wharf some of his schoolfriends ended up as armed robbers as alternative trade. He doesnt glamourise it. Thats how life was.


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## Gramsci (Nov 11, 2017)

I havent seen Honeytrap so shouldn't judge.

Film is not real life. On some level everyone is aware of that.

From earliest times plays and stories dealt with extremes of human emotion.  Take Greek theatre. Full of violence. Or Shakespeare. Having this in front of one in amphitheater or cinema may make one reflect and learn. 

People are  propelled into madness by love or desire. Drama taking to an excess how people behave in real life. There is nothing rational about love or desire.

If the film is a modern take on that then its fair enough.


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## CH1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I do relate physically to working class (black and white in London) . Whilst they generally arent keen on cops and arent bothered by some levels of crime this kind of violence turned on ones own community isnt approved of.
> 
> Its also not a matter of social media. Some people grew up with people on both sides of the fence in crime terms.
> 
> I help a white van man from east end sometimes. Nice bloke. As docks were closed ending up as Canary Wharf some of his schoolfriends ended up as armed robbers as alternative trade. He doesnt glamourise it. Thats how life was.


We will have to disagree on this. I'm a bit old school - I greatly liked the former vicar of St Judes who used to go on about "the devil is stalking the streets of Brixton" His sermons were a wonder to hear.

John Wesley (whose conversion is celebrated by a bronze statue of a flame outside the Museum of London) was of the same ilk. These people consider that a sense of right and wrong is essential to living a good life.

Locally Pastor Mimi used to does the same thing on the Angell Town Estate - thought I notice that she recently turned 50 and opened a Ghanaian Restaurant in the row of shops by the Hero of Switzerland pub. I would love to know if Pastor Mimi is still working with gang members and ex gang members, or whether she has become burnt out by it.

The Honeytrap is on London Live again now as I write by the way. The do repeat things several times. I still can't get the full sense of it. It has aspects of kitchen sink drama to it, and romance, but the young people are very young which gives it a sort of children's TV ambience to my eye.


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## CH1 (Nov 11, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I havent seen Honeytrap so shouldn't judge.
> 
> Film is not real life. On some level everyone is aware of that.
> 
> ...


My problem with the film is not that it is unreal. It is that it is banal. If anything the effect (on me) is that is deadens any sense of shock and horror.
That said, I expect the film makers produced the effect they wanted.


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