# Work Programme employment agency advice.



## lolkitten (Jun 16, 2012)

Hi,
I was recently put on the WP after being on JSA for over 6 months. The WP employment and training agency shall remain anonymous but I noticed something very odd after my first two or three fortnightly / monthly interviews with my advisor. I had talked to several other people and they had told me that the agency pressurizes you into becoming "self-employed" explaining that you can still claim some of your benefits and as self employed you will get just over £50 work tax credit each week. The consultants go on to say that this is only £20 less than your weekly JSA, so in effect you can sign off as unemployed, get a UTR number from HMRC and be classified as self employed. Your working tax credit will be back dated and you only have to find 3-4 hours of work each week to make up the difference. The thing I have found is that with me , and I know that the same applies to others with me on the WP, is that they have been forced to become self-employed or threatened to be made to do cleaning  jobs ( an unemployed postgrad scientist was threatened with this). The agency  have a lot of people over a barrel. Get self employed, lie to HMRC about how much you earn / hours you work, even if you are not working / earning any money; if you do not like this option we will force you to do any job we care. I know a lot of people who did not want to go self employed but were pressurized into doing this. They now have to look for work to top up their £50 working tax credit,  and some a forced to do anything that comes, whilst the WP employment agency gets their rewards from DWP. In my eyes this is very nefarious and sly methods being used by the agency.
Is this fair practise by the company ? To me it looks like they are exploiting a clever loophole to their advantage and I am thinking of making a complaint to the Job centre. If so where exactly should the complaint be made. I am also thinking about writing to my local MP. I myself have been told by my advisor that he expects me to register as self employed within  two weeks or I will be cleaning pubs. He doesn't care what work i get to make up my working tax credit. Somehow I don't think this is much of a help regarding my career progression.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 16, 2012)

Why are you keeping the name of the agency anonymous?
Hav you tried googling the name of the agency to see whether they have "form" for doing this sort of thing?

I can at least tell you *why* your advisor is *most likely* doing this: Some agencies pay "performance bonuses" to their staff for shifting people off the programme.
If the company the advisor works for can register you as a "success", either through finding you a job or by "helping" you go self-employed, they get a completion payment for having done so. Some of them pass on a percentage of this to the so-called advisors.
Basically, your going self-employed helps your advisor meet their targets (yes, they have targets for fucking people over helping people), and the parent company claim their next slice of public funds, but it doesn't actually help *you* much at all, as you've noticed.


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## BigTom (Jun 16, 2012)

Like VP says, the provider firm and presumably the adviser will get paid for every person they take off the dole.  However, what they are advising you to do is fraudulent.

Any chance you could secretly record your sessions (on a mobile phone perhaps?) and if you are advised to do this, you could sent the recording anonymously to Boycott Workfare.
The more evidence we have of fraud and dodgy goings on in the work programme, the more chance we have of getting it scrapped - and that would be a massive blow to this government.

Completely understand if you don't want to, but their advice is fraud and anyone who follows it, then gets checked by HMRC, would find themselves paying back everything they got.  Potentially it might be worth taking any recording to the police but I suspect it might have more effect to hand it to the media.

btw, you can use the data protection act to avoid getting sent on work assignments - see www.consent.me.uk for the information, form letters and full details - I don't know exactly what it gets you out of, so do have a proper look.


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## Glitter (Jun 16, 2012)

Write to your MP. Copy your jobcentre into it as well as the WP provider. 

Things get done when there are MPs involved.


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## lolkitten (Jun 17, 2012)

The company is called Maximus

http://www.maximusuk.co.uk/

The consultant who has been assigned to me is an ex-A4E employee who jumped ship when the sh*t was about to hit the fans in their most notorious and infamous office in the home counties ;-) As I said previously, he is expecting me to register as self-employed by our next appointment or I will made to do cleaning work. They seem to think I should have no excuse finding at least 5 hours work to make up the working tax credit (£50 / week) I would get to the JSA amount (£70/week). I wonder if this is happening in any of their other offices ? Is there anyone in authority at my local Jobcentre Plus who I can talk to about what is happening ? It is pretty obvious that they have engineered a method by which to get people off JSA which is cleverly circumventing some rules. Add to that the fact that they are telling you to be economic with the truth when it comes to dealing with HMRC ; pretty weasely behaviour I'd say. Luckily I am not aged between 16-25. That poor generation is really getting sc***ed by companies like these. A couple of youngsters that I have met are getting bullied into doing very menial jobs with no prospect for career progression. What sort of help is that for someone starting out in life ? The kids are basically told "do this job and if you don't we will tell the job centre and your benefit will be stopped." It is pretty obvious that they are only after the fat commission on offer. Capitalist fascists !


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## Greebo (Jun 17, 2012)

lolkitten said:


> The company is called Maximus
> 
> http://www.maximusuk.co.uk/
> 
> The consultant who has been assigned to me is an ex-A4E employee who jumped ship when the sh*t was about to hit the fans in their most notorious and infamous office in the home counties ;-) As I said previously, he is expecting me to register as self-employed by our next appointment or I will made to do cleaning work. <snip>The kids are basically told "do this job and if you don't we will tell the job centre and your benefit will be stopped." It is pretty obvious that they are only after the fat commission on offer. Capitalist fascists !


Maximus is also brand of waterbased lubricant - coincidence that in both cases the name is linked to being shafted?


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## equationgirl (Jun 17, 2012)

They've got form for medicaid fraud ($30m worth) in the US, but nothing (so far) that I could find in the UK:
http://www.ukdebate.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=20016.0

I would tell HMRC of their 'advice' as well as the media.


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## BigTom (Jun 17, 2012)

I think if you want to talk to someone in authority then your MP could be a good person to go to.
HMRC would probably be interested but I'd be slightly concerned they might go after people who signed off and make them repay the tax credits they've got. If you've got a decent mp, they might be able to get hmrc to not claim money back


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## Rebecca Pidgeon (Jun 18, 2012)

lolkitten said:


> The company is called Maximus
> 
> http://www.maximusuk.co.uk/
> 
> The consultant who has been assigned to me is an ex-A4E employee who jumped ship when the sh*t was about to hit the fans in their most notorious and infamous office in the home counties ;-) As I said previously, he is expecting me to register as self-employed by our next appointment or I will made to do cleaning work. They seem to think I should have no excuse finding at least 5 hours work to make up the working tax credit (£50 / week) I would get to the JSA amount (£70/week). I wonder if this is happening in any of their other offices ? Is there anyone in authority at my local Jobcentre Plus who I can talk to about what is happening ? It is pretty obvious that they have engineered a method by which to get people off JSA which is cleverly circumventing some rules. Add to that the fact that they are telling you to be economic with the truth when it comes to dealing with HMRC ; pretty weasely behaviour I'd say. Luckily I am not aged between 16-25. That poor generation is really getting sc***ed by companies like these. A couple of youngsters that I have met are getting bullied into doing very menial jobs with no prospect for career progression. What sort of help is that for someone starting out in life ? The kids are basically told "do this job and if you don't we will tell the job centre and your benefit will be stopped." It is pretty obvious that they are only after the fat commission on offer. Capitalist fascists !


 
Given that the Welfare To Work Sector is lower down the scale of the Economic Food Pile than the Public Sector, certainly lower than the level occupied by Job Centre Plus, surely Admin Clerks within the W2W Sector should not be so uppity by awarding themselves the ego boosting but baloneous job title of Consultant ?


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## smokedout (Jun 20, 2012)

> Self-employment has reached a record figure of 4.17 million, up by 84,000 since the previous quarter.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/20/uk-unemployment-benefit-claims-data?newsfeed=true
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jun/20/uk-unemployment-benefit-claims-data?newsfeed=true

working tax credit, the scam that dare not speak it's name

difficult to know how to handle this one


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 20, 2012)

Well, what a surprise!
*UK unemployment falls by 51,000*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18518286


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## StoneRoad (Jun 21, 2012)

as has been said before -
Lies. dammed lies and Statistics.......

most governments try to "massage" such stats for their own reasons.......
Am I right in thinking that the official unemployment figures only include those actually in receipt of JSA ?? so, for example, all those "sanctioned" are not counted......nor are those people who have had their 26weeks of contribution-based JSA and are not able to claim the means tested version....


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 21, 2012)

StoneRoad said:


> Am I right in thinking that the official unemployment figures only include those actually in receipt of JSA ??


 
Don't think so, because when the figures are announced, the "claimant count" is usually a separate and lower number.

more on national statistics website here - I can't face trying to plough through all that crap


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## StoneRoad (Jun 21, 2012)

Thanks P-T, I'll have a look......


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## cnewell (Aug 28, 2013)

which office did the consultant work for?  i am a journalist and interested to speak to you about this...


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## cnewell (Aug 28, 2013)

which office did the consultant work for?


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## Pingu (Aug 28, 2013)

check the dates out on the posts mate.

1st rule of lazy journalism...


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## InquisitiveCore (Sep 18, 2013)

Hello Lolkitten – Not sure if you still active on the forum, if yes, please would you mind sharing some more information. I am doing a research on the subject and would like to speak to people who have had this experience and would like to share. Many thanks in advance…


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## InquisitiveCore (Sep 18, 2013)

lolkitten said:


> Hi,
> I was recently put on the WP after being on JSA for over 6 months. The WP employment and training agency shall remain anonymous but I noticed something very odd after my first two or three fortnightly / monthly interviews with my advisor. I had talked to several other people and they had told me that the agency pressurizes you into becoming "self-employed" explaining that you can still claim some of your benefits and as self employed you will get just over £50 work tax credit each week. The consultants go on to say that this is only £20 less than your weekly JSA, so in effect you can sign off as unemployed, get a UTR number from HMRC and be classified as self employed. Your working tax credit will be back dated and you only have to find 3-4 hours of work each week to make up the difference. The thing I have found is that with me , and I know that the same applies to others with me on the WP, is that they have been forced to become self-employed or threatened to be made to do cleaning  jobs ( an unemployed postgrad scientist was threatened with this). The agency  have a lot of people over a barrel. Get self employed, lie to HMRC about how much you earn / hours you work, even if you are not working / earning any money; if you do not like this option we will force you to do any job we care. I know a lot of people who did not want to go self employed but were pressurized into doing this. They now have to look for work to top up their £50 working tax credit,  and some a forced to do anything that comes, whilst the WP employment agency gets their rewards from DWP. In my eyes this is very nefarious and sly methods being used by the agency.
> Is this fair practise by the company ? To me it looks like they are exploiting a clever loophole to their advantage and I am thinking of making a complaint to the Job centre. If so where exactly should the complaint be made. I am also thinking about writing to my local MP. I myself have been told by my advisor that he expects me to register as self employed within  two weeks or I will be cleaning pubs. He doesn't care what work i get to make up my working tax credit. Somehow I don't think this is much of a help regarding my career progression.



Hello Lolkitten – Not sure if you still active on the forum, if yes, please would you mind sharing some more information. I am doing a research on the subject and would like to speak to people who have had this experience and would like to share. Many thanks in advance…


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## InquisitiveCore (Sep 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why are you keeping the name of the agency anonymous?
> Hav you tried googling the name of the agency to see whether they have "form" for doing this sort of thing?
> 
> I can at least tell you *why* your advisor is *most likely* doing this: Some agencies pay "performance bonuses" to their staff for shifting people off the programme.
> ...



Hello ViolentPanda, I intend to do research on this subject and would like to speak to people who have had this experience. Have you heard this from some other source  / friends too? And if yes, would you mind sharing more information please. Many thanks in advance...


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## Greebo (Sep 18, 2013)

InquisitiveCore even if you haven't bothered to read the FAQ (please do so - it obviates a lot of trouble all round) you would have gathered from a little reading or urban that people here simply adore being pumped for information by somebody they don't know from Adam.


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## Pingu (Sep 18, 2013)

Greebo said:


> InquisitiveCore even if you haven't bothered to read the FAQ (please do so - it obviates a lot of trouble all round) you would have gathered from a little reading or urban that people here simply adore being pumped for information by somebody they don't know from Adam.




true fact this. we just love spewing information out to researchers and Journalists. Urban was voted "forum most likely to help you" at the recent "Research into Europe" conference in Brussels the other month. we were a bit miffed we didn't win the "most welcoming to new members" award but hey you can't have everything.

sure some may feed you false info and some may even abuse you but on the whole we are a friendly bunch here given to meeting journos even - provided they bring a packet of hob nobs and donate a fiver to the "Dub is innocent appeal"*

*long story involving a Sun Journo, a king size butt plug, a tub of swarfgea and a party on the circle line. A hilarious mix up means hes currently doing a 10 year stretch but we hope to raise the funds for his appeal in the near future.


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## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2013)

InquisitiveCore said:


> Hello Lolkitten – Not sure if you still active on the forum, if yes, please would you mind sharing some more information. I am doing a research on the subject and would like to speak to people who have had this experience and would like to share. Many thanks in advance…


Who are you and why do you want random people to give you unsubstantiated information? If you are doing research and are looking for subjects this is not the way to go about it.

What are you doing the research for and what will you do with this information/data?


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## InquisitiveCore (Sep 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Who are you and why do you want random people to give you unsubstantiated information? If you are doing research and are looking for subjects this is not the way to go about it.
> 
> What are you doing the research for and what will you do with this information/data?



Hello There,

I work as freelance researcher and this is compelling subject and interest me. I would be grateful for any possible inputs.  Thanks in advance…


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## Greebo (Sep 19, 2013)

InquisitiveCore said:


> Hello There,
> 
> I work as freelance researcher and this is compelling subject and interest me. I would be grateful for any possible inputs.  Thanks in advance…


I hope that you don't actually write articles - your English is appalling.


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## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2013)

InquisitiveCore said:


> Hello There,
> 
> I work as freelance researcher and this is compelling subject and interest me. I would be grateful for any possible inputs.  Thanks in advance…


You haven't answered the question. You're asking people to give you their personal information which you will looking to make money from. Freelance doesn't mean 'work for free' after all.


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## InquisitiveCore (Sep 19, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I hope that you don't actually write articles - your English is appalling.




I guess this is why I just get to do research and someone else writes “article”... One can only learn from mistakes, thanks for making me more resolute to learn and improve…


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## InquisitiveCore (Sep 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You haven't answered the question. You're asking people to give you their personal information which you will looking to make money from. Freelance doesn't mean 'work for free' after all.



Yes I freelance as researcher and that does help me put bread on table, thanks… Please note the subject been discussed here in not a private matter, it is a concern that we must share and address collectively.  Collective consciousness…  I am sure you understand that... Thanks & Regards


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## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

InquisitiveCore said:


> Yes I freelance as researcher and that does help me put bread on table, thanks… Please note the subject been discussed here in not a private matter, it is a concern that we must share and address collectively.  Collective consciousness…  I am sure you understand that... Thanks & Regards


With respect I don't know who you are and who you freelance for. And now you've outed yourself as some kind of freelance research journalist, you should be aware that the rules of this forum as explained in the FAQ explicitly state that this site does not exist to be resource for researchers, students or journalists.

It's also stunning naive of you to assume that members of this community aren't already 'raising the collective consciousness'.


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## InquisitiveCore (Sep 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> With respect I don't know who you are and who you freelance for. And now you've outed yourself as some kind of freelance research journalist, you should be aware that the rules of this forum as explained in the FAQ explicitly state that this site does not exist to be resource for researchers, students or journalists.
> 
> It's also stunning naive of you to assume that members of this community aren't already 'raising the collective consciousness'.



I surely didn’t mean / assume that members of this community are not already 'raising the collective consciousness'. I meant to just reiterate. My apologies if I came across wrong. Regards -


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## Pingu (Sep 20, 2013)

does the expression "incoming" mean anything to you InquisitiveCore?


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## Greebo (Sep 20, 2013)

Pingu said:


> does the expression "incoming" mean anything to you InquisitiveCore?


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