# absurd accusations of racism.



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Those accustomed to British football are well aware that racist chanting has long been an unpleasant feature of or game yet ,apparently,some professional race industry wankers are trying to find the amusingly offensive chant of Tottenham fans towards Sol Campbell racist.

Essentially it goes (to the tune of lord of the dance)
Sol SOl  wherever you may be
you're on teh brink of insanity 
and we don't give a fuck if you're hanging from a tree 
you're a judas cunt with HIV

Offensive -yes
Homophobic -almost certainly but racist ? how ?


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## mauvais (Oct 12, 2008)

I sense perhaps you're not long for this forum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Fruit


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## Fictionist (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Those accustomed to British football are well aware that racist chanting has long been an unpleasant feature of or game yet ,apparently,some professional race industry wankers are trying to find the amusingly offensive chant of Tottenham fans towards Sol Campbell racist.
> 
> Essentially it goes (to the tune of lord of the dance)
> Sol SOl  wherever you may be
> ...



"Hanging from a tree?" Does 'Strange Fruit' mean anything to you?


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

how is that Mauvais ?you don't like racism discussed ?


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## yield (Oct 12, 2008)

Go away Al Kahul.


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## El Jefe (Oct 12, 2008)

Shit troll is shit


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> how is that Mauvais ?you don't like racism discussed ?


I think he means that it's already been discussed here. 

I'm uncomfortable with the 'hanging from a tree' like too.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Fictionist said:


> "Hanging from a tree?" Does 'Strange Fruit' mean anything to you?



I think the average football fan would have very little knowledge of Billy Holiday or Lynchings of Black people in the twenties so it is just pure invention by the americanised race industry who tries to relate the US experience to everything.

Of course if any of the race professionals had paid attention in religious education they would know that "hanging from a tree' is what happened to Judas although I suspect it is really about Mr Campbell and  potential suicide given his reported mental state.

Not pleasant but Racism it ain't


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

yield said:


> Go away Al Kahul.



er...(thinks)...no

I don't think I will. Just because some of you  who make a quick buck out of teh professional race industry and do fuck all to actually stop racism doesn't stop me and won't stop me from bringing this up.

But then if Racism disappears I don't get to lose a highly paid position .So its really in their interest to keep it going.


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## Maidmarian (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> I think the average football fan would have very little knowledge of Billy Holiday or Lynchings of Black people in the twenties so it is just pure invention by the americanised race industry who tries to relate the US experience to everything.
> 
> Of course if any of the race professionals had paid attention in religious education they would know that "hanging from a tree' is what happened to Judas although I suspect it is really about Mr Campbell and  potential suicide given his reported mental state.
> 
> Not pleasant but Racism it ain't



In your VERY humble opinion.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> I think he means that it's already been discussed here.
> 
> I'm uncomfortable with the 'hanging from a tree' like too.



I haven't read it here .I can't know what has or has not been discussed.

If you are uncomfortable about hanging from a tree and it has NO roots in the origin of that verse can I ask why ?


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Maidmarian said:


> In your VERY humble opinion.



and opinions here are what ? qualified ?


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## El Jefe (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> If you are uncomfortable about hanging from a tree and it has NO roots in the origin of that verse can I ask why ?



You seem very certain of this. Care to explain how you came across this definitive information?


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> I think the average football fan would have very little knowledge of Billy Holiday or Lynchings of Black people in the twenties so it is just pure invention by the americanised race industry who tries to relate the US experience to everything.


You're talking utter shit.

I doubt if you even ever go to football games.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> I haven't read it here .I can't know what has or has not been discussed.


Try using the 'search' function. It's on top of every page and if you'd bothered to read the FAQ (like you're required to do before posting) you would have seen this right at the top of the list:



> 1. Please read the boards for a while before posting: that way you won't repeat questions/threads that have already been asked. Use the 'search' function to see if your topic has already been discussed.


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## Maidmarian (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> and opinions here are what ? qualified ?



Opinions here are just that --- opinions .


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## xes (Oct 12, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> You seem very certain of this. Care to explain how you came across this definitive information?



when Sol left half way through the Arsenal game,it was roumered that he'd hung himself. The song refers to that,not the colour of his skin. 

It's still ugly what ever way you look at it.


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## Vintage Paw (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm curious as to what else 'hanging from a tree' would refer to if not lynching. 

Fuck's sake.

e2a:

Didn't know about his suicide attempt. Still ... ambiguous.


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## quimcunx (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> I think the average football fan would have very little knowledge of Billy Holiday or Lynchings of Black people in the twenties so it is just pure invention by the americanised race industry who tries to relate the US experience to everything.
> 
> Of course if any of the race professionals had paid attention in religious education they would know that "hanging from a tree' is what happened to Judas although I suspect it is really about Mr Campbell and  potential suicide given his reported mental state.
> 
> Not pleasant but Racism it ain't




I think the average football fans, and most people generally, are a lot more familiar with lynchings in US films than they are about Judas's demise. 

The potential suicide part is a valid point but doesn't preclude the joy of connecting it to lynchings and race.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2008)

Of course there couldn't possibly be _any_ racist element to talking about a black man hanging from a tree. Similarly, if people throw bananas on the pitch they must just be making a friendly joke that a player is performing in a way that indicates he has "gone bananas".

The suicide thing sounds like a two-for-one insult tbh - personally _and_ racially offensive.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> You're talking utter shit.
> 
> I doubt if you even ever go to football games.



Since I live abroad then not a lot these days

 Can I accuse you of talking shit back or does being editor mean that you will ban me for questioning you ? 

Just for the record


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2008)

Oh, and nice HIV reference too.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Maidmarian said:


> Opinions here are just that --- opinions .



quite


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'm curious as to what else 'hanging from a tree' would refer to if not lynching.
> 
> Fuck's sake.
> 
> ...




Hanging from a tree is far more likley 

Him hanging himself

or a reference to Judas


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Of course there couldn't possibly be _any_ racist element to talking about a black man hanging from a tree. Similarly, if people throw bananas on the pitch they must just be making a friendly joke that a player is performing in a way that indicates he has "gone bananas".
> 
> The suicide thing sounds like a two-for-one insult tbh - personally _and_ racially offensive.



so you are saying that if you CAN possibly find a racist element of you look far enough then it must be the case.

certainly throwing bananas on the pitch at black players indicates racist behavior but "hanging from a tree' is just loonies trying to read race into everything.

Whatabout Middlesborough fans calling Hartlepool "monkey hanging twats" . Its obviousl that it refers to the legend of teh people of hartlepool hanging a monkey BUT you could easily read it as being about 'monkeys' being black people and lynching referring to the 20's in the US -it just has to be doesn't it  espcially if Hartlepool actually had a Black player at the time.

Of course the Chant is homophobic -noone is denying that.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh, and nice HIV reference too.



as I said -noone is denying that it's homophobic or is this really about Aids and Africa and really about racism too.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

xes said:


> when Sol left half way through the Arsenal game,it was roumered that he'd hung himself. The song refers to that,not the colour of his skin.
> 
> It's still ugly what ever way you look at it.



I agree with what you say but the fact that the race professionals say the hanging bit must be about lynchings means it must be


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> I agree with what you say but the fact that the race professionals say the hanging bit must be about lynchings means it must be



Who are the 'race proffesionals'?


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm sorry, but in this day and age and in this culture, talking about black men hanging from trees is astoundingly dodgy. Perhaps some of the people concerned are thick as shit and hadn't even thought about what they were singing, and perhaps a few have come from Mars, but everyone else...


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Since I live abroad then not a lot these days


Since you're busy telling everyone what the average football is suppose to think, it's entirely reasonable to ask how often you're actually in contact with them.

And you've answered that for me nicely thanks - i.e. never.





Al Kahul said:


> Can I accuse you of talking shit back or does being editor mean that you will ban me for questioning you ?
> 
> Just for the record


What a curious response.


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## nino_savatte (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Those accustomed to British football are well aware that racist chanting has long been an unpleasant feature of or game yet ,apparently,some professional race industry wankers are trying to find the amusingly offensive chant of Tottenham fans towards Sol Campbell racist.
> 
> Essentially it goes (to the tune of lord of the dance)
> Sol SOl  wherever you may be
> ...



You're a fucking queer fish, "Al Kahul". I knew it wouldn't be long before you started this kind of thread. Do you know Rachamim Ben Ami by any chance?


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## audiotech (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> What a curious response.


 
Not for someone who's been banned previously?


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> as I said -noone is denying that it's homophobic or is this really about Aids and Africa and really about racism too.



No, I suspect that's just simply homophobic, given that a quick google indicates another chant to be "he's big, he's black, he takes it up the crack".


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## Hi-ASL (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm getting a dizzying sense of deja vu. Haven't we been through all this before, and not that long ago?


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> Since you're busy telling everyone what the average football is suppose to think, it's entirely reasonable to ask how often you're actually in contact with them.
> 
> And you've answered that for me nicely thanks - i.e. never.What a curious response.




Well I used to Go rather often to football matches  just not much in the last few years. I very much doubt that stuff has changed much

curious response -why -there are lots of sites arouns and some have moderators who ban people they don't like and some who don't since I don't know you then Its a reasonable question.


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## Fictionist (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> I agree with what you say but the fact that the race professionals say the hanging bit must be about lynchings means it must be



Tell us a little about yourself AK, I would be very interested to know what experiences have helped shape your view of the world.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm sorry, but in this day and age and in this culture, talking about black men hanging from trees is astoundingly dodgy. Perhaps some of the people concerned are thick as shit and hadn't even thought about what they were singing, and perhaps a few have come from Mars, but everyone else...



but if it were a white man then it would be fine .

When luton fans sang "he's fat he's queer he takes it up the rear" it was ok  then because Elton John isn't black .

Its homophobic and certainly if we wanted to address the chant it would be about the homophobic content rather than for its non existant racism.

It reminds me of the Crap about the Lord of the rings films being racist a few years ago.


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## Hi-ASL (Oct 12, 2008)

What race professionals? Who are you talking about?


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> but if it were a white man then it would be fine .


Er, well, it wouldn't be racist. It wouldn't be _fine_.


Al Kahul said:


> When luton fans sang "he's fat he's queer he takes it up the rear" it was ok  then because Elton John isn't black .
> 
> Its homophobic and certainly if we wanted to address the chant it would be about the homophobic content rather than for its non existant racism.
> 
> It reminds me of the Crap about the Lord of the rings films being racist a few years ago.


I don't see anyone dismissing the homophobic element. It can be both.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Fictionist said:


> Tell us a little about yourself AK, I would be very interested to know what experiences have helped shape your view of the world.



Middle class ,professionally qualified ,recently in Hong Kong and Now Thailand.
Come from North Surrey and Chelsea fan since age 8,Catholic background,Part irish,Married ,no kids,rescue dogs as a hobby.

Nothing much else really.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi-ASL said:


> What race professionals? Who are you talking about?



Lord knows. I'm still waiting on my paycheque from the PC Police, personally. They're very bad employers.


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> but if it were a white man then it would be fine .
> 
> When luton fans sang "he's fat he's queer he takes it up the rear" it was ok  then because Elton John isn't black .
> 
> ...



It's been explained how the chant is clearly racist quite a few times in this thread already. And you saying that the average football fan doesn't know about lynching is spurious as it only takes one to invent a chant.


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## audiotech (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> but if it were a white man then it would be fine .
> 
> When luton fans sang "he's fat he's queer he takes it up the rear" it was ok then because Elton John isn't black .


 
No reference to Elton John being 'hung from a tree' there?


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Er, well, it wouldn't be racist. It wouldn't be _fine_.
> 
> I don't see anyone dismissing the homophobic element. It can be both.



it can be but while it is clearly homophobic the 'hanging from a tree' element is vastly more likely to refer to the rumour of campbell hanging himself than talk of lynchings.

Noone has yet said why it isn't referring to the rumour or that it refers to Judas of Bible fame who hanged himself after taking the 30 pieces of silver. Its just a knee jerk reaction of .

"you could read this as racist therefore it must be so".


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> It's been explained how the chant is clearly racist quite a few times in this thread already. And you saying that the average football fan doesn't know about lynching is spurious as it only takes one to invent a chant.



its been posited but since it is vastly more likley that it refers to the presupposed suicide then that explanation is irrelevant.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

MC5 said:


> No reference to Elton John being 'hung from a tree' there?



nor in the chant "he's big he's black  he take it up the crack" which this refers to  and is itself a mock of "he's big he's black he's our best full back" or is the latter racist ?


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> it can be but while it is clearly homophobic the 'hanging from a tree' element is vastly more likely to refer to the rumour of campbell hanging himself than talk of lynchings.
> 
> Noone has yet said why it isn't referring to the rumour or that it refers to Judas of Bible fame who hanged himself after taking the 30 pieces of silver. Its just a knee jerk reaction of .
> 
> "you could read this as racist therefore it must be so".



I hazard that I'm not alone in reckoning that the top 3 of reasons for the 'hanging from a tree' are;

1. lynching
2. suicide
3. How did Judas die? Who the fuck knows?


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## Hi-ASL (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> it can be but while it is clearly homophobic the 'hanging from a tree' element is vastly more likely to refer to the rumour of campbell hanging himself than talk of lynchings.


Why can't it be both?


> Noone has yet said why it isn't referring to the rumour or that it refers to Judas of Bible fame who hanged himself after taking the 30 pieces of silver.


Too obscure, too convoluted. Common sense militates against this explanation.


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## nino_savatte (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> it can be but while it is clearly homophobic the 'hanging from a tree' element is vastly more likely to refer to the rumour of campbell hanging himself than talk of lynchings.
> 
> Noone has yet said why it isn't referring to the rumour or that it refers to Judas of Bible fame who hanged himself after taking the 30 pieces of silver. Its just a knee jerk reaction of .
> 
> "you could read this as racist therefore it must be so".



What the fuck are you talking about? Go on, my son, dig that hole deeper!


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## audiotech (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> nor in the chant "he's big he's black he take it up the crack" which this refers to and is itself a mock of "he's big he's black he's our best full back" or is the latter racist ?


 

 It refers to his race.

Not many chants of 'he's big, he's white and shite' on the terraces is there?


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Noone has yet said why it isn't referring to the rumour or that it refers to Judas of Bible fame who hanged himself after taking the 30 pieces of silver. Its just a knee jerk reaction of .


Perhaps because most people haven't a fucking clue about what happened to Judas, so it's clearly a massive red herring.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> it can be but while it is clearly homophobic the 'hanging from a tree' element is vastly more likely to refer to the rumour of campbell hanging himself than talk of lynchings.
> 
> Noone has yet said why it isn't referring to the rumour or that it refers to Judas of Bible fame who hanged himself after taking the 30 pieces of silver. Its just a knee jerk reaction of .
> 
> "you could read this as racist therefore it must be so".



Football fans aren't stupid (well, no more than anyone else). I see no reason why anyone should assume they don't know what they're singing means. I'd expect pretty much anyone to be able to understand the issue, even if they didn't initially make the association.


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 12, 2008)

And we still don't know who the 'race professionals' are. Perhaps it's not got to that page of How To Troll yet.


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## nino_savatte (Oct 12, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> And we still don't know who the 'race professionals' are. Perhaps it's not got to that page of How To Troll yet.



They're the same people who are behind political correctness [gone mad].


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2008)

Didn't you already do this thread alcohol?


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## Hi-ASL (Oct 12, 2008)

Here's the thread I was thinking of, which covers much the same ground:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=265178


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> Perhaps because most people haven't a fucking clue about what happened to Judas, so it's clearly a massive red herring.




just like  the 'strange fruit' is a fucking red herring.

Its about the rumour of campbell hanging himself  and you have not brought one bit of evidence to show that its not about that  just assumed its 'racial' because under the puritanical need to denounce people that is so popular on teh left right now.

Racism exists and where it is real it should be challenged but trying to find it where it doesn't exist is counter productive .


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi-ASL said:


> Here's the thread I was thinking of, which covers much the same ground:
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=265178



I was unware .

Thank you I shall read that thread.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Didn't you already do this thread alcohol?


The remarkably similar level of obsession with these mysterious 'race professionals' is duly noted.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> just like  the 'strange fruit' is a fucking red herring.
> 
> Its about the rumour of campbell hanging himself  and you have not brought one bit of evidence to show that its not about that  just assumed its 'racial' because under the puritanical need to denounce people that is so popular on teh left right now.


So if regular football fans find such a chant racially offensive, they're simply wrong to do so because, err, you say so?

I go to football. I'd find such a chant offensive.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

having read it it mostly echoes exactly what I said . Perhaps I made the mistake of not brining it up on the football thread  (where people do know about football it seems) but in the politics thread where they just accuse others of not knowing.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> So if regular football fans find such a chant racially offensive, they're simply wrong to do so because, err, you say so?
> 
> I go to football. I'd find such a chant offensive.



you are all regular football fans are you ?

funny that the regular fans on the site mentioned above don't seem to agree with you.

having attended a club who had a large proportion of fans who were repulsively racist  I can tell what if and what is frankly not racist at all.

You chose to see racism that isn't there.You probably thought Lord of the rings racist too.


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 12, 2008)

Pointless poster is pointless


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> The remarkably similar level of obsession with these mysterious 'race professionals' is duly noted.




christ on a bike -what is it with you people ? I have only one account here -Im not a zionist loon ( I'm accused of being Zachor) and I haven't started a thread on this elsewhere

look at my IP address and it will come up as Bangkok -look on the others and apart from Fela fan  they won't


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## Dillinger4 (Oct 12, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> Pointless poster is pointless



Not just on this thread either.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

perhaps I'm really Fela fan


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2008)

No, you _are_ old stoic.


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## Dillinger4 (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> perhaps I'm really Fela fan



You are not that pointless.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> You are not that pointless.


well he seems a perfectly decent guy to me .He obviously doesn't embody the groupthink that drives most of you .


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> well he seems a perfectly decent guy to me .He obviously doesn't embody the groupthink that drives most of you .



We are all under the pay of race professionals. It's what brought us all together. Perhaps you would be happier somewhere else? We're paid not to agree with you.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> We are all under the pay of race professionals. It's what brought us all together. Perhaps you would be happier somewhere else? We're paid not to agree with you.




I post on a number of boards. The fact that  the group think of many of you leads you to believe that anyone who disagrees with your doctrinaire thoughts must be a sockpuppet of any other person is just more evidence of that.

Ill sty here thanks . Unlike most of you I dont post to share views with people who just agree with me indeed if someone had come up with a better argument than

1) You are crap

2) we think we are right 


 then I might have changed my mind but then this is a site where people think mindless violence will stop people voting BNP


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2008)

Given that your banning was for threatening to violently attack another poster *and* the editor...


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## liampreston (Oct 12, 2008)

Er...."this is a site where people think mindless violence will stop people voting BNP"

I may not always agree with the way the left- and far-left operate, but I have yet to read on these boards of the STW protest involving bare-knuckle fighting.....


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## dylanredefined (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> Perhaps because most people haven't a fucking clue about what happened to Judas, so it's clearly a massive red herring.



  He took his 30 pieces of silver and hung himself .It not a particularly obscure
of bit of the bible.
    Its deeply unpleaseant but its not openly rascist imho.


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## grogwilton (Oct 12, 2008)

Its not racist. The idea that its a reference to racist lynching is a big logical jump. Spurs fans aren't famous for being racist, and they arent being here.

What is the reference to HIV?


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

the HIV thing is just a homophobic attack.


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## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

dylanredefined said:


> He took his 30 pieces of silver and hung himself .It not a particularly obscure
> of bit of the bible.


It is to me and, I'd wager, an awful lot of other people too.

Are you a Spurs fan?


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2008)

I thought spurs fans rejected the new testament?


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

I never thought of spurs fans as being racists.My club ,Chelsea has plenty, of them -indeed  the hissing (mimicking the gas at auschwitz) is particularly foul and still goes on  as do chants of "spurs are on their way to Auschwitz".These are real tangible examples - we don't need to invent ones that don't exist


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> It is to me and, I'd wager, an awful lot of other people too.
> 
> Are you a Spurs fan?



its extremely famous -ill bet you vastly more people in the UK know the Judas hanging himself than the reference to strange fruit. But then you live in a very different world .If you were around in the seventies or early eighties you had King of Kings and Jesus of nazereth on every easter  in 4 parts on sunday evenings.


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## Blagsta (Oct 12, 2008)

Didn't you get banned from here last time Al kahul, for sending threatening PM's?


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 12, 2008)

grogwilton said:


> Its not racist. *The idea that its a reference to racist lynching is a big logical jump*. Spurs fans aren't famous for being racist, and they arent being here.
> 
> What is the reference to HIV?



What else could it possibly mean?


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Didn't you get banned from here last time Al kahul, for sending threatening PM's?




for christs sake give it a rest Im not Zachor ,Im not fela fan or any other of your strange concoctions.You seem to think there is only one person in the world who doesn't have the same group mind as yours.

sending PMs to whom exactly ?Threatening them with what ? being against Violence I wouldn't threaten anyone.


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## Blagsta (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> for christs sake give it a rest Im not Zachor ,Im not fela fan or any other of your strange concoctions.You seem to think there is only one person in the world who doesn't have the same group mind as yours.
> 
> sending PMs to whom exactly ?Threatening them with what ? being against Violence I wouldn't threaten anyone.



You used to post under the name old stoic.


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## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

news to me .

who am I supposed to have threatened ?


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> You used to post under the name old stoic.



Don't be daft, there's clearly two chelsea supporting mutualists who used to knock around Class War, who both used to frequent Speakers corner, both have a bee in their bonnet about the race industry, who both describe themselves as islamophobic,who  both have a peculiar take on Israel, both just happen to know The black hand and Paul marsh, and who both just happen to be public school retired gents living in Thailand. _What are the chances of that happening!_


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> If you were around in the seventies or early eighties you had King of Kings and Jesus of nazereth on every easter in 4 parts on sunday evenings.


I _was_ around in the seventies and I _kno_w you're talking shit.


Al Kahul said:


> well he seems a perfectly decent guy to me .He obviously doesn't embody the groupthink that drives most of you .


Bless. We haven't had a 'monothought clique' accusation for a while now. It's like old times!


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> I _was_ around in the seventies and I _kno_w you're talking shit.
> Bless. We haven't had a 'monothought clique' accusation for a while now. It's like old times!




Its you who are talking shit . The complete lack of anything on sunday afternoons in the late seventies and you missed jesus of Nazereth  on sunday afternoons at easter .You are making it up .No doubt you went to teh only school in the area that didn't have religious education either and you 'just happened' to have never covered the gospels.

BUT everyone ,it seems,is well up on the history of lynching in the USA

Pants on fire M8


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 12, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Don't be daft, there's clearly two chelsea supporting mutualists who used to knock around Class War, who both used to frequent Speakers corner, both have a bee in their bonnet about the race industry, who both describe themselves as islamophobic,who  both have a peculiar take on Israel, both just happen to know The black hand and Paul marsh, and who both just happen to be public school retired gents living in Thailand. _What are the chances of that happening!_



A miracle indeed!


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> A miracle indeed!




you can make up anything you like .
I don't know 'the black hand'


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> you can make up anything you like .
> I don't know 'the black hand'



Lots of people sussed you early on.  You're not as bright as you think you are.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

still making no sense .


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 12, 2008)

not a very good liar either


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

OK gone too far now

<blagsta joins his mates on ignore>

Bye Bye Blagsta


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> you can make up anything you like .
> I don't know 'the black hand'


http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=8143587&highlight=sabbing#post8143587

Make your mind up, mate.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> OK gone too far now
> 
> <blagsta joins his mates on ignore>
> 
> Bye Bye Blagsta



You know this just confirms it to everyone else.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

In Bloom said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=8143587&highlight=sabbing#post8143587
> 
> Make your mind up, mate.



I know who attica and paul marsh are - black hand -no idea


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 12, 2008)

Is this a crucial point in a thread where someone should post the word 'pawned'?


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Its you who are talking shit . The complete lack of anything on sunday afternoons in the late seventies and you missed jesus of Nazereth  on sunday afternoons at easter .You are making it up .No doubt you went to teh only school in the area that didn't have religious education either and you 'just happened' to have never covered the gospels.
> 
> BUT everyone ,it seems,is well up on the history of lynching in the USA
> 
> Pants on fire M8


You seem to be losing the plot a little bit here, squire.

I have no need to make up any of my background, which was liberally peppered with God bothering. I went to a Welsh school  and given full RE lessons, I went to ruddy Sunday School, I was in the Boys Brigade for a while and I was even briefly featured on BBC1 in the front row on Songs Of Praise, miming to some rubbish hymn or another.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 12, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Is this a crucial point in a thread where someone should post the word 'pawned'?



about now, yes


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Prawned?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> I know who attica and paul marsh are - black hand -no idea


The Black Hand is one of many names Attica/gangster/whatever he's calling himself this week has used on here.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> You seem to be losing the plot a little bit here, squire.
> 
> I have no need to make up any of my background, which was liberally peppered with God bothering. I went to a Welsh school  and given full RE lessons, I went to ruddy Sunday School, I was in the Boys Brigade for a while and I was even briefly featured on BBC1 in the front row on Songs Of Praise, miming to some rubbish hymn or another.
> 
> So kindly stop accusing me of being a liar because it's a little bit offensive when you clearly haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.



so you did all that and never knew about Jesus being betrayed by Judas

I find you accusing me of knowing nothing about football also offensive , I find the constant offensive comments by people I have put on ignore also offensive.

But then I'm not the editor  so perhaps I have no right not to be offended.

You treat my opinions with no respect whatsoever ;like every standard cookie cutter  lefty you make attacks on the slightest deviation yet you can't take it hurled back.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

In Bloom said:


> The Black Hand is one of many names Attica/gangster/whatever he's calling himself this week has used on here.



he has so many names I can't keep up . Hes love and weed at the moment.


----------



## JHE (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Those accustomed to British football are well aware that racist chanting has long been an unpleasant feature of or game yet ,apparently,some professional race industry wankers are trying to find the amusingly offensive chant of Tottenham fans towards Sol Campbell racist.
> 
> Essentially it goes (to the tune of lord of the dance)
> Sol SOl  wherever you may be
> ...



Nasty?  Yes, obviously it is and is meant to be
Racist?  No, I can't see anything racist about it
Is 'hanging from a tree' an allusion to lynching?  No, I don't think so.  It goes with the idea that Sol Campbell is a Judas (Matthew claims that in remorse Judas hanged himself)
Why a Judas?  Presumably just because he used to play for Spurs and left (hardly unusual for a professional footballer, I'd have thought)
Homophobic?    Is there any suggestion that Sol Campbell is gay?
Why HIV?  Dunno, except that it rhymes with 'be' and gleefully telling someone he has such a dangerous infection fits with the malice of the rest of the little ditty


Isn't this all a lot of fuss about very little?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Oct 12, 2008)

quimcunx said:


> The potential suicide part is a valid point but doesn't preclude the joy of connecting it to lynchings and race.



When crypto-racists attempt to downplay something that's blatantly racist to anyone with a working brain, they will always point to the most ambiguous possible explanation in an attempt to mitigate the obvious. 

In the same way, Islamophobia isn't "technically" racist because there exist a small minority of Muslims who aren't brown or black or yellow.

I look forward to many more revelations from this fellow as to what _isn't_ really racist. Perhaps tossing bananas onto a playing field could be construed as public concern for the players' potassium levels. :shrug:


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> You treat my opinions with no respect whatsoever ;like every standard cookie cutter  lefty you make attacks on the slightest deviation yet you can't take it hurled back.


I don't even know what a "standard cookie cutter  lefty" is, but your hypocrisy has reached quite staggering levels.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> I don't even know what a "standard cookie cutter  lefty" is, but your hypocrisy has reached quite staggering levels.



If you say so


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

JHE said:


> Nasty?  Yes, obviously it is and is meant to be
> Racist?  No, I can't see anything racist about it
> Is 'hanging from a tree' an allusion to lynching?  No, I don't think so.  It goes with the idea that Sol Campbell is a Judas (Matthew claims that in remorse Judas hanged himself)
> Why a Judas?  Presumably just because he used to play for Spurs and left (hardly unusual for a professional footballer, I'd have thought)
> ...



wow so you too have heard about Judas and the tree -ed.please take note


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> When crypto-racists attempt to downplay something that's blatantly racist to anyone with a working brain, they will always point to the most ambiguous possible explanation in an attempt to mitigate the obvious.
> 
> In the same way, Islamophobia isn't "technically" racist because there exist a small minority of Muslims who aren't brown or black or yellow.
> 
> I look forward to many more revelations from this fellow as to what _isn't_ really racist. Perhaps tossing bananas onto a playing field could be construed as public concern for the players' potassium levels. :shrug:



Crypto racists  apparently means people who don't see racism in everything.

islamaphobia is not racist at all because Muslims aren't racially based. Most anglicans are Black  so by your working  out all anti anglicans must be racist

the tree comment is only racist to those so utterly brainwashed that they see racism in everything,


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> wow so you too have heard about Judas and the tree -ed.please take note


It looks like even the Bible isn't sure.





> How Did Judas Die?
> The Bible presents two conflicting accounts of the manner of Judas' death.
> 
> *Judas Hanged Himself*
> ...


LOL.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 12, 2008)

JHE said:


> Nasty? Yes, obviously it is and is meant to be
> Racist? No, I can't see anything racist about it
> Is 'hanging from a tree' an allusion to lynching? No, I don't think so. It goes with the idea that Sol Campbell is a Judas (Matthew claims that in remorse Judas hanged himself)
> Why a Judas? Presumably just because he used to play for Spurs and left (hardly unusual for a professional footballer, I'd have thought)
> ...


 
It _is_ homophobic and Spuirs fans have been claiming that Campbell is gay from the moment that he did the dirty, despite there being no more evidence for his homosexuality than there is for Wenger being a pederast.

What's annoying about all this (and I really, really don't think the chant has racist intent) is that opportunistic cunts like Bent Harry push an unconvincing racism story rather than exploit the overt homophobia. Racism is, apparently, an unacceptable prejudice while homophobia isn't actionable. 

It would be nice if the FA were bothered about the hissing at White Hart Lane, amusingly meant to be reminiscent of Auschwitz, but there appears to be a huge difference between genuinely racist abuse of paying fans and putatively racist abuse of cosseted players.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Those accustomed to British football are well aware that racist chanting has long been an unpleasant feature of or game yet ,apparently,some professional race industry wankers are trying to find the amusingly offensive chant of Tottenham fans towards Sol Campbell racist.
> 
> Essentially it goes (to the tune of lord of the dance)
> Sol SOl  wherever you may be
> ...



Lolz 

You cunting muppet.


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the tree comment is only racist to those so utterly brainwashed that they see racism in everything,


Right. So every football fan who finds the chant unacceptable has been "utterly brainwashed," yes?

By who, exactly? And how?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> Right. So every football fan who finds the chant unacceptable has been "utterly brainwashed," yes?
> 
> By who, exactly? And how?



the chant IS unacceptable for many reasons -racism is not one of them.

Its Homophobic and shows intense disregard for mental illness.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Lolz
> 
> You cunting muppet.



big man to throw insults from behind his monitor -big man indeed.

I'm so upset


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 12, 2008)

citizen 66

ignored


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> citizen 66
> 
> ignored



Ignorance must be bliss.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Crypto racists  apparently means people who don't see racism in everything.



Heavens, no. Crytpo-racists are defined by their fervent, unsolicited rush to the least likely defense in a phenomenon everyone else can see exactly for what it is.



> islamaphobia is not racist at all because Muslims aren't racially based. Most anglicans are Black  so by your working  out all anti anglicans must be racist



Possibly. The internal stuggles of the Anglican church are a matter of complete indifference to me. The large "black" (read: African and Caribbean) contingent are homophobic, that's for sure.



> the tree comment is only racist to those so utterly brainwashed that they see racism in everything,



How brainwashed does one have to be to hasten to point out, without being prompted, the supposedly non-racist aspect of everything, even when it's obviously racist?


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the chant IS unacceptable for many reasons -racism is not one of them.
> 
> Its Homophobic and shows intense disregard for mental illness.


Let's try again; has every football fan who feels that the chant has unpleasant racist overtones been "utterly brainwashed"?

If so, by who, exactly? And how?


----------



## _float_ (Oct 12, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Is this a crucial point in a thread where someone should post the word 'pawned'?


What about the phrase "witch-hunt"?


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2008)

_float_ said:


> What about the phrase "witch-hunt"?


Where has there been a "witch hunt"?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 12, 2008)

*waves pitchfork*


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 12, 2008)

.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 12, 2008)

It's more about lazy journalism than brain-washing. I assume the OP has some kind of agenda and thinks that a sinister cabal of anti-racism funding beneficiaries kick stories like this off, instead of pinning the blame on useless hacks. Which, unfortunately, makes him come across as a bit of a twat and reinforces the veracity of the original misconception.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 12, 2008)

_float_ said:


> What about the phrase "witch-hunt"?



 You are obsessed mate. Seriously!


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> Where has there been a "witch hunt"?



It is the term that is wheeled out when somebody says something incredibly stupid and the stupid thing is pointed out.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 12, 2008)

_float_ said:


> What about the phrase "witch-hunt"?


I prefer the term "lynch mob" personally


----------



## _float_ (Oct 12, 2008)

editor said:


> Where has there been a "witch hunt"?


Well I can see five people on this thread who say they don't think the chant is racist, but only one person being accused of all sorts of stuff (being a returned banned poster, being racist, having various hidden agendas etc). 

The attacks started immediately with some of the first posts being: "I sense perhaps you're not long for this forum", "Go away", "Shit troll is shit". 

It then got a bit more polite (mainly due to your posts) then there was a second wave of "You're a fucking queer fish, "Al Kahul"", "someone who's been banned previously?", "Pointless poster is pointless", "you are old stoic", "your banning was for threatening to violently attack another poster", "Didn't you get banned from here last time Al kahul, for sending threatening PM's", "Is this a crucial point in a thread where someone should post the word 'pawned'?", "You cunting muppet" etc...

Editor, you have been polite all the way through as has the OP. Other people seem to have simply got stuck in with ad hominems and brainless abuse, egged-on/encouraged by seeing each other's posts probably.

Maybe "witch-hunt" isn't the right word for it, but it seems to be a common sport amongst some posters - abusing new posters for imagined crimes and accusing them of being returning banned posters or having hidden agendas, usually building up into a tag-team/mob attack of brainless abuse and sneering.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Oct 12, 2008)

_float_ said:


> Maybe "witch-hunt" isn't the right word for it, but it seems to be a common sport amongst some posters - abusing new posters for imagined crimes and accusing them of being returning banned posters or having hidden agendas, usually building up into a tag-team/mob attack of brainless abuse and sneering.



I haven't been here long enough to even speculate on who's a returned banned poster, but I've been around the block enough times to know a crypto-racist troll when I see one.

Anyone who'd initiate the kinds of threads this fellow has enters the arena with an obvious ax to grind. That he's required to pony up on why he thinks the way he does is just the way it goes in the real world.

That he'd be picked apart for his justifications is just part of the cut-and-thrust of it.

It's only the internets, after all. It's not like anyone's mind is going to be changed or owt.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 12, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I haven't been here long enough to even speculate on who's a returned banned poster, but I've been around the block enough times to know a crypto-racist troll when I see one.
> 
> Anyone who'd initiate the kinds of threads this fellow has enters the arena with an obvious ax to grind. That he's required to pony up on why he thinks the way he does is just the way it goes in the real world.
> 
> ...



Aye - it shows that this gaff is basically decent and principled that a racist trolling cunt gets called out and told to go fuck himself. I thought he was another cunt, but it turns out he's an even bigger cunt than the cunt I thought he was. So apologises to the lesser cunt.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Oct 13, 2008)

There's no "hidden agenda" here. The intention of the OP is as transparent as can be, to those of us accustomed to it.


----------



## brasicritique (Oct 13, 2008)

_float_ said:


> The attacks started immediately with some of the first posts being: "I sense perhaps you're not long for this forum", "Go away", "Shit troll is shit".
> 
> It then got a bit more polite (mainly due to your posts) then there was a second wave of "You're a fucking queer fish, "Al Kahul"", "someone who's been banned previously?", "Pointless poster is pointless", "you are old stoic", "your banning was for threatening to violently attack another poster", "Didn't you get banned from here last time Al kahul, for sending threatening PM's", "Is this a crucial point in a thread where someone should post the word 'pawned'?", "You cunting muppet" etc...
> 
> ...



well this is urban75! imo i dont think any of the posters on this thread can kick a ball let alone know anything about the game i find the growth of the soccer cyber-pundit as a whole laughable 

you do get the impresion that all some posters wanted to say was 'all chav football fans are racsist sexsist homophobes apart from us being pure and godly urbanites' then that would have been the end of it 

The real problem imo is that until uefa or fifa start banning clubs/countries for racial abuse or set up schmes like kick it out with teeth then racsism in football as a whole will continue to blight the game


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

brasicritique said:


> imo i dont think any of the posters on this thread can kick a ball let alone know anything about the game i find the growth of the soccer cyber-pundit as a whole laughable


I think I know a little bit about football actually, and certainly know a bit about racism in football.


----------



## brasicritique (Oct 13, 2008)

fairplay


----------



## _float_ (Oct 13, 2008)

Jeff Robinson said:


> ...a racist trolling cunt gets called out and told to go fuck himself...


Care to quote anything the OP has posted that is racist? 

There have been quite a few people on this thread who have made reasonable contributions, so why can't you?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Interesting.  So, Al; you’d have us believe that the writer of this chant intended to be personally offensive, unsympathetic towards mental ill health, homophobic, and anti-Semitic, but absolutely not racist.

Why?  Why would the writer leave out one obvious avenue for offensiveness? Why are you so certain they did?  Unless you wrote it, I don’t see where your certainty comes from.

First point.  The chant is indefensible.  You intimate as much yourself.  However, you want it to be seen to expound multiple offensiveness but not racism.  Let’s look at the evidence.

You submit that “hanging from a tree” is not necessarily racist.  This is true, however I submit that the reference to Judas’ demise is too convoluted for the intention to be anti-Semitic; there are far better ways to be anti-Semitic, which leaves us with two possibilities.

It is a reference to lynchings during the civil rights upheaval of the 60s, a terrible and infamous tradition stretching back to abolition, revisited in film and TV.  Or it is a reference to Campbell’s rumoured mental ill health.  

Since there is only one way to lynch, but hanging oneself from a tree is only one of many ways to commit suicide (even if narrowed down to suicide by hanging), I suggest that the probability lies with it being a reference to lynching.  The small caveat is that the line did have to rhyme with ‘be’ and ‘HIV’, but even so I think the serendipity of the rhyme would be welcomed by a lyricist with racist intent.

So, now if you still insist it isn’t racist, you have to fall back on insisting that the writer was ignorant of the history of lynching.  This requires you to believe in a writer with no knowledge of the films depicting the civil rights turmoil, no knowledge of TV series such as Roots, and in short no knowledge of the history of the Deep South of the US.  It suggests you rather think racist football fans are uninformed.  I suggest that many racists are better informed than you suppose.

So, while we can’t say the intention of the line was without doubt racist, we can say that the balance of probabilities is that it was so.  Quite why you are determined it definitely isn’t so evades me.

I suggest perhaps you didn’t get the reference, and having publicly declared, felt it difficult to back down.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

what i found oddest about the pisspoor troll's opening comment was hat he thought the chant was '_almost_ certainly' homophobic.  I wonder where his doubt lay?

To be honest tho, altho I don't tend to be shy abut finding evidence of racism abounding, I'm not convinced this chant is a great example. 'hanging from a tree' is blatantly and obviously a Judas reference, and there is no definite reason why it requires any further connotations to be read into it.  i mean, I know that Tottingham fans are supposedly more concerned about the other Testament, but the story of the traitor topping himself is still widely enough known for even them to style a 'witty' chant about it. Some, possibly including the author of said ditty, _may_ have had the thought of lynching in the back of their minds as well, but it would almost undoubtedly be secondary to Judas, if not entirely coincidental.

None of which should contradict the fact that Al Kahul is an obvious dullard troll fool.


----------



## Jonti (Oct 13, 2008)

I'd've thought the lynchings of black people were more a matter of common knowledge than how Judas* died.

For me anyway, that's what the chant brings to mind.


* no, not Judas Priest, the guy in the New Testament. Oh, nevermind.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> None of which should contradict the fact that Al Kahul is an obvious dullard troll fool.



I think you mean a fearless free-thinker who doesn't shy away from the telling of uncomfortable truths.


----------



## Dravinian (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> what i found oddest about the pisspoor troll's opening comment was hat he thought the chant was '_almost_ certainly' homophobic.  I wonder where his doubt lay?
> 
> To be honest tho, altho I don't tend to be shy abut finding evidence of racism abounding, I'm not convinced this chant is a great example. 'hanging from a tree' is blatantly and obviously a Judas reference, and there is no definite reason why it requires any further connotations to be read into it.  i mean, I know that Tottingham fans are supposedly more concerned about the other Testament, but the story of the traitor topping himself is still widely enough known for even them to style a 'witty' chant about it. Some, possibly including the author of said ditty, _may_ have had the thought of lynching in the back of their minds as well, but it would almost undoubtedly be secondary to Judas, if not entirely coincidental.
> 
> None of which should contradict the fact that Al Kahul is an obvious dullard troll fool.



To use your logic....

Why start the second sentence with "To be Honest tho..."

Did you just lie before that? 

You can't really infer too much from language when it is used in that way.

To the OP, my first thoughts when I read the chant was that they were refering to him, because he is black, as being a monkey...hanging from a Tree as some apes do.  This sprung to my mind because I remember hearing something about supporters throwing bananas at black footballers.

Didn't really think of the lynching thing cause it really isn't a part of British history/culture.

Still racist.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Interesting. So, Al; you’d have us believe that the writer of this chant intended to be personally offensive, unsympathetic towards mental ill health, homophobic, and *anti-Semitic*, but absolutely not racist.
> 
> .


 
Eh? Where does the OP say that? Think you've got a bit muddled; that would be an utterly implausible allegation.


----------



## d.a.s.h (Oct 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It would be nice if the FA were bothered about the hissing at White Hart Lane, amusingly meant to be reminiscent of Auschwitz



Is there no limit to the idiocies surrounding football?


----------



## bigbry (Oct 13, 2008)

Dravinian said:


> To use your logic....
> 
> Why start the second sentence with *"To be Honest tho..."*
> 
> ...



It's just a phrase we use - doesn't mean you were lying before you said.

Same as IMO - almost everything I post is in my opinion but sometimes you need to restate it.

As for the 'hanging from a tree' - I tend to favour the racist connotations in a society where most of the people have never read theBible and people don't attend church anymore and religion is not taught in schools as it was about thirty odd years ago.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

The most obvious point to make is that a phrase can have multiple meanings - that's one of the clever things about language. It doesn't have to be tied to one or the other.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

Does anybody else have trouble seeing the homophobia in that chant?  Heterosexual men can contract HIV too.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

If looked at free of any context then yes, but when the context of long stanmding rumours of SC's being gay are taken into account...


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

_float_ said:


> Well I can see five people on this thread who say they don't think the chant is racist, but only one person being accused of all sorts of stuff (being a returned banned poster, being racist, having various hidden agendas etc).
> 
> The attacks started immediately with some of the first posts being: "I sense perhaps you're not long for this forum", "Go away", "Shit troll is shit".
> 
> ...



And who the fuck are you? You don't seem to have actually read the OP but have leapt in with both feet, making accusations that don't stack up. 

Btw, you seem a bit familiar, "float". It's interesting how you chose to seize on one of my posts as though it were indicative of something meaningful. If I called your chum a "queer fish", that isn't an "ad hominem", that's my observation.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:
			
		

> Eh? Where does the OP say that? Think you've got a bit muddled; that would be an utterly implausible allegation





Al Kahul said:


> Noone has yet said why it isn't referring to the rumour or that it refers to Judas of Bible fame who hanged himself after taking the 30 pieces of silver.






			
				chant said:
			
		

> a judas cunt



I'm merely summarising.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

_float_ said:


> What about the phrase "witch-hunt"?



Are you for real? But, let's face it, it's par for the course for you to exaggerate.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 13, 2008)

jIt obviously isn't racist  and the abuse merely proves it.

I have said nothing racist but as wel well know you can be accused of racism for just not being quick enough to accuse others of racism.

Many posters here really are the bastard children of cromwell's puritans.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

Strange fruit. What I find so absolutely reprehensible is the fact that you continue to deny that the the words "hanging from a tree" have no sinister connotations. You're a fucking disgrace and so is your pal, float, for defending you.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> What I find so absolutely reprehensible is the fact that you continue to deny that the the words "hanging from a tree" have no sinister connotations.


He doesn't; he does say it's reprehensible, just not racist.

Al, while I'm here: 

Your implication that “the race industry” is a project of “the left” is a misunderstanding of power structures as they exist today, and a misreading of the last 30 years of economic and class history.

Bureaucratic multiculturalism is a response via civil society to class cohesion in the labour market.  It is an attempt by the class with power to present a version of common sense which says that a black worker has more in common with a black “community leader” than with a white worker.  It is an attempt to atomise labour, just as the campaign against union organisation was.  As such it is part of the version of individualism vital to neoliberalism.  It is a neoliberal project, as any reflection upon whom it is that it benefits would demonstrate.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> He doesn't; he does say it's reprehensible, just not racist.
> 
> Al, while I'm here:
> 
> ...



Well, as I said, I find his lack of honesty reprehensible. Only a certain type of poster would use words like the "race industry". I don't think I need to paint any pictures.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Only a certain type of poster would use words like the "race industry". I don't think I need to paint any pictures.


Really?  You don't think bureaucratic multiculturalism is critique-able?


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Dravinian said:


> To use your logic....
> 
> Why start the second sentence with "To be Honest tho..."
> 
> ...


well, that's using my syntax/semantics rather than my logic, but fair point.  To an extent.  Of course the use of such phrases should not be taken literally, but they certainly give a 'tone' - and in this case, its that Al Kahul is a daft cunt.  As s/he shows again in his/her last post.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Jonti said:


> I'd've thought the lynchings of black people were more a matter of common knowledge than how Judas* died.


were it context free, I would very probably agree. However, there is clearly a reference to Judas - as they mention his bleedin' name in the next line! And the manner of his death is still pretty well known.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Really?  You don't think bureaucratic multiculturalism is critique-able?



Yes, really. Perhaps you've forgotten the oft-used phrase "political correctness gone mad" and how that is used by certain types.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> jIt obviously isn't racist  and the abuse merely proves it.
> 
> I have said nothing racist but as wel well know you can be accused of racism for just not being quick enough to accuse others of racism.
> 
> Many posters here really are the bastard children of cromwell's puritans.



it would have been much quicker for you to just type 'yes, i am a, not particularly good, troll'. 

tho thanks for giving us all another opportunity to laugh at your stupidity.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Yes, really. Perhaps you've forgotten the oft-used phrase "political correctness gone mad" and how that is used by certain types.



so because 'certain types' use a phrase in a repugnant manner,m that phrase must _always_ mean that repugnant thing?  That's just drivel, that is.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Yes, really. Perhaps you've forgotten the oft-used phrase "political correctness gone mad" and how that is used by certain types.


I'm not denying that Al may well be a cerain type, but there is a "race industry", and it benefits the class which rose to power with neoliberalism.  Use of the phrase "race industry" in itself does not make one a racist.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> I'm not denying that Al may well be a cerain type, but there is a "race industry", and it benefits the class which rose to power with neoliberalism.  Use of the phrase "race industry" in itself does not make one a racist.



Consoldiated/restructed their power please.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> I'm not denying that Al may well be a cerain type, but there is a "race industry", and it benefits the class which rose to power with neoliberalism.  Use of the phrase "race industry" in itself does not make one a racist.



I think you're missing the point here: the use of the words "race industry" in this particular context is little different to the discourse-killing phrase "political correctness gone mad".


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Consoldiated/restructed their power please.


OK, fair play.  I was referring to the Thatcher-championed nouveaux riches, but I'll save the economistic pedantry for another place.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> so because 'certain types' use a phrase in a repugnant manner,m that phrase must _always_ mean that repugnant thing?  That's just drivel, that is.



No, it isn't "drivel" and, in this particular context, it is rather revealing of the OP..or perhaps you would like to think its employment was wholly innocent?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> were it context free, I would very probably agree. However, there is clearly a reference to Judas - as they mention his bleedin' name in the next line! And the manner of his death is still pretty well known.



Even here you use the word "context". Funny how you missed that out when you replied to my post.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> I think you're missing the point here: the use of the words "race industry" in this particular context is little different to the discourse-killing phrase "political correctness gone mad".


You're implying it is evidence that Al is a racist; I'm arguing that there is no evidence he is, but plenty of evidence that he is a mutualist dupe of neoliberal individualism.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> No, it isn't "drivel" and, in this particular context, it is rather revealing of the OP..or perhaps you would like to think its employment was wholly innocent?



He's saying that it's revealing of the OP but not everyone else who ever uses the term. Would you read what people write?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> He's saying that it's revealing of the OP but not everyone else who ever uses the term. Would you read what people write?



Ah, the butcher's oar. That's what I was saying and it would appear that some of you suffer from a selective reading disorder.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Ah, the butcher's oar. That's what I was saying and it would appear that some of you suffer from a selective reading disorder.


So you were saying the exact same thing as belboid but you attacked him for saying it anyway.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

context, dear boy, context.

I'll now let you decide who I am posting that comment to


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> You're implying it is evidence that Al is a racist; I'm arguing that there is no evidence he is, but plenty of evidence that he is a mutualist dupe of neoliberal individualism.



No, that is not what I was saying and please, stop putting words into my mouth.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> So you were saying the exact same thing as belboid but you attacked him for saying it anyway.



Whatever, apron. In for another fight, eh? You can't resist it.

Where did I "attack" belboid? Or are you exaggerating for the sake of a drama?


----------



## Darios (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Your implication that “the race industry” is a project of “the left” is a misunderstanding of power structures as they exist today, and a misreading of the last 30 years of economic and class history.
> 
> Bureaucratic multiculturalism is a response via civil society to class cohesion in the labour market.  It is an attempt by the class with power to present a version of common sense which says that a black worker has more in common with a black “community leader” than with a white worker.  It is an attempt to atomise labour, just as the campaign against union organisation was.  As such it is part of the version of individualism vital to neoliberalism.  It is a neoliberal project, as any reflection upon whom it is that it benefits would demonstrate.



That may well be the case Danny, however "the race industry" appears to be popularly associated with the "do-gooder left".


----------



## Darios (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> plenty of evidence that he is a mutualist dupe of neoliberal individualism.



What is a "mutualist dupe of neoliberal individualism"?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> If looked at free of any context then yes, but when the context of long stanmding rumours of SC's being gay are taken into account...


Ah, missed that earlier in the thread.  Nasty.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Whatever, apron. In for another fight, eh? You can't resist it.
> 
> Where did I "attack" belboid? Or are you exaggerating for the sake of a drama?



When you reach the point at which Nino is waving his arms shouting _Shoot me! Shoot ME!_ you know it's not really going anywhere.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> No, that is not what I was saying and please, stop putting words into my mouth.



a - do try to understand the difference between 'implying' and 'saying'.

b - what were you saying (or implying) then, when you talked of the offensiveness of a 'certain type' of person using the term 'race industry'


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> When you reach the point at which Nino is waving his arms shouting _Shoot me! Shoot ME!_ you know it's not really going anywhere.



And once again, in order to make out that he has nothing to do with the very obvious shit-stirring, he comes out with this cliché.

You're obviously bored out of your skull, apron. What I find so amusing is the way in which you try to claim that I'm a lunatic... which is pretty rich coming from a Internet thug (and a small -minded bully).


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> a - do try to understand the difference between 'implying' and 'saying'.
> 
> b - what were you saying (or implying) then, when you talked of the offensiveness of a 'certain type' of person using the term 'race industry'



Piss off, nitpicker.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> a - do try to understand the difference between 'implying' and 'saying'.
> 
> b - what were you saying (or implying) then, when you talked of the offensiveness of a 'certain type' of person using the term 'race industry'



And what's more, the bit after 



> 'Only a certain type of poster would use words like the "race industry".'



goes onto say  



> I don't think I need to paint any pictures.



!!


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> And once again, in order to make out that he has nothing to do with the very obvious shit-stirring, he comes out with this cliché.
> 
> You're obviously bored out of your skull, apron. What I find so amusing is the way in which you try to claim that I'm a lunatic... which is pretty rich coming from a Internet thug (and a small -minded bully).



"internet thug": love it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Given that your banning was for threatening to violently attack another poster *and* the editor...



You have proof of this, or is this another example of more butchersparon speculation?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> "internet thug": love it.



I know you wouldn't be far away. Funny how that always happens.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

Nino, is there ever a fucking thread where you don't end up picking fights with nigh on everyone and making a plum of yourself? 

Even if people largely agree with your opinion you still manage to argue with them.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> You have proof of this, or is this another example of more butchersparon speculation?



Hands up whose only read half the thread.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> And what's more, the bit after
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're always out to pick fights - aren't you?


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Piss off, nitpicker.




 

So, you are unable to tell us what you meant. Or why I, butchers and Danny are, apparently full of crap.  This is what’s called a ‘discussion board’ you know sonny. If you don’t want what you say to be read – and maybe criticized – don’t write anything.  If you write something, try to make it make sense, or everyone will just laugh at you.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Hands up whose only read half the thread.



Well that's where you're wrong, cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Well that's where you're wrong, cunt.



Nino!


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

Just like I and others 'picked fights' with you on that suburban thread Nino, about potatoes for bleeding hell's sake.

Have a word with yourself. The constant arguments starring you are a major reason why people can't be arsed with P&P anymore.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> So, you are unable to tell us what you meant. Or why I, butchers and Danny are, apparently full of crap.  This is what’s called a ‘discussion board’ you know sonny. If you don’t want what you say to be read – and maybe criticized – don’t write anything.  If you write something, try to make it make sense, or everyone will just laugh at you.



Ah, another one of these posts where the poster claims the other doesn't "like to be criticised". Fuck me, you reckon yourself.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Just like I and others 'picked fights' with you on that suburban thread Nino.
> 
> Have a word with yourself. The constant arguments starring you are a major reason why people can't be arsed with P&P anymore.



Another predictable appearance. Are you fuckers linked to a hive mind?

Oh and what "constant arguments". You're rather fond of bun fights yourself but can't bring yourself to admit it. But your last sentence is nothing short of a smear.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nino!



What a fucking tool.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Another predictable appearance. Are you fuckers linked to a hive mind?



Yes, we call it the monothought clique.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

oh dear, nino's lost it completely. 

"you reckon yourself." - eh??

actually, dont bother answering.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

Bollocks Nino. It's hardly as though Butchers, Belboid and me share the bulk of opinions, let alone natty tag team wrestling uniforms.

I've actually agreed with you on a fair few threads, but you only ever seem to hold grudges and get involved in interminable arguments. It makes me wince to see you pick fight after fight, destroying threads in the process. It's a load of delusional shit to think that folks are continually 'misreading' or 'ganging up' on your somehow. You're a massive part of the problem,


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

Nope, I haven't lost "anything", chum.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, we call it the monothought clique.



Baldwin is now posting under the name of "butchersapron".


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

I just wanted to know what you meant, as you seemed to be contradicting yourself.  Oh well

(oh, and why the quote marks around 'anything' - it not being a word I used, single inverted commas would be the appropriate punctuation)


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Bollocks Nino. It's hardly as though Butchers, Belboid and me share the bulk of opinions, let alone natty tag team wrestling uniforms.
> 
> I've actually agreed with you on a fair few threads, but you only ever seem to hold grudges and get involved in interminable arguments. It makes me wince to see you pick fight after fight, destroying threads in the process. It's a load of delusional shit to think that folks are continually 'misreading' or 'ganging up' on your somehow. You're a massive part of the problem,



You accuse me of "misreading" posts yet none of you - including you - will admit to yourself that you do the same thing. In fact, as far as any of you are concerned, you're all paragons of sensibility. But it's all bollocks.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> I just wanted to know what you meant, as you seemed to be contradicting yourself.  Oh well



I think I was quite clear, it's not my problem that you have deliberately read something that wasn't there.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> oh dear, nino's lost it completely.
> 
> "you reckon yourself." - eh??
> 
> actually, dont bother answering.



Oh dear, another cliché.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

well, explain it to me again, seeing as I'm a bit thick like, clearly.

you deny implying that Al is a racist, yet you seemed to imply that using the phrase 'race industry' in the way he did was racist.  I just want to know how this circle is squared.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Oh dear, another cliché.



did it take you all that time to think up that 'retort' 

Please learn what cliché actually means if you wish to use it in a sentence.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> You accuse me of "misreading" posts yet none of you - including you - will admit to yourself that you do the same thing. In fact, as far as any of you are concerned, you're all paragons of sensibility. But it's all bollocks.



Yes dear. 

We'll all admit to misreading things and having arguments on here from time to time. The difference is that most of us are also capable of being light hearted, can laugh at ourselves and don't take things as mortal insults/hold grudges until the end of time. We're not all angry one trick ponies, outraged on every thread.

TBH, I hadn't realised what a tragic case you were until that potato thread in Suburban of all places. You know, the one where you rounded on anyone and got all shitty if they had the temerity to suggest that you bought your potatoes anywhere apart from the local supermarket. It was ridiculous to the point of high humour.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

You decided to read what you wanted into my post and on that basis alone, I don't feel that I have to explain anything to you. 

I mean what is this? Deliberate Misreading Day?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Yes dear.
> 
> We'll all admit to misreading things and having arguments on here from time to time. The difference is that most of us are also capable of being light hearted, can laugh at ourselves and don't take things as mortal insults/hold grudges until the end of time. We're not all angry one trick ponies, outraged on every thread.
> 
> TBH, I hadn't realised what a tragic case you were until that potato thread in Suburban of all places. You know, the one where you rounded on anyone and got all shitty if they had the temerity to suggest that you bought your potatoes anywhere apart from the local supermarket. It was ridiculous to the point of high humour.



You talk such shite, tarannau. Oh and why do you feel the need to talk about another thread? Funny how you (and others accuse me of this but are quite happy to do it yourselves. You? A hypocrite? Never).


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> I don't feel that I have to explain anything to you.



fine.  Just fuck off then.

You obviously realise you were talking shit, but are too pathetic to admit it. Very sad.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> TBH, I hadn't realised what a tragic case you were until that potato thread in Suburban of all places. You know, the one where you rounded on anyone and got all shitty if they had the temerity to suggest that you bought your potatoes anywhere apart from the local supermarket. It was ridiculous to the point of high humour.



This i have got to read.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> fine.  Just fuck off then.
> 
> You obviously realise you were talking shit, but are too pathetic to admit it. Very sad.



LOL!!! You're no better than a 6 year old, who's just had his sweets taken from him.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> This i have got to read.



This is how you spend your days? And you expect people to take you seriously? Do me a favour.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> LOL!!! You're no better than a 6 year old, who's just had his sweets taken from him.


Give him his sweets back then thief.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> This i have got to read.



Nino started the thread so it should be easy to track down. Have a read - it's a cracker.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Give him his sweets back then thief.



This is a rather good example of how your [twisted] mind works.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Nino started the thread so it should be easy to track down. Have a read - it's a cracker.



Tiny things for tiny minds. You came along to pick a fight on that thread - as you do on so many others.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> This is a rather good example of how your [twisted] mind works.



Twisted?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Twisted?



Is there an echo?


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> This is a rather good example of how your [twisted] mind works.



oh.  I thought it was a quite good example of 'humour'.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> oh.  I thought it was a quite good example of 'humour'.



Just because you found it funny, it doesn't mean that it has universal comic appeal.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Tiny things for tiny minds. You came along to pick a fight on that thread - as you do on so many others.



So all those people that made rolleyes at you and suggested much the same thing, before my arrival after 3 or 4 pages, were picking fights too? Love your attempts to control the debate there mind, on Suburban of all places. 

Honestly Nino, your martyr complex is a little wearing these days.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> So all those people that made rolleyes at you and suggested much the same thing, before my arrival after 3 or 4 pages, were picking fights too? Love your attempts to control the debate there mind, on Suburban of all places.
> 
> Honestly Nino, your martyr complex is a little wearing these days.



What the fuck are you talking about? How have I "controlled the debate"? Fuck me, you're off your head.

But it's this "martyr complex" thing that you accuse me of. I mean, where the fuck do you get off with this stuff? 

I find your pugnacious attitude wearing, pal.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

What, apart from you informing everyone how that thread was meant to be about white potatoes and how you could only get those from supermarkets, not you and your inability to travel short distances

Anyway. I'm off to talk trivial things in Suburban. You carry on with your arguing and shouting at everyone Nino, like you always do


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

> What, apart from you informing everyone how that thread was meant to be about white potatoes and how you could only get those from supermarkets, not you and your inability to travel short distances



What forum is this supposed to be? It was UK P&P, the last time I checked.

That's right, you go off and start a fight in there with someone else. I know you will, it's par for the course in your case.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

Nino - do yourself a favour and just do a search for all your recent posts. Every single one on the first page revolves around insults and arguments.

Then try the same for me - crap about Birthdays, advice on frozen meat,  Peter Kay and other light-hearted, inconsequential crap. I'm far from perfect, but I'm not a 2d argumentative blowhard like yourself either. Please consider giving it a rest for once.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> What forum is this supposed to be? It was UK P&P, the last time I checked.
> 
> That's right, you go off and start a fight in there with someone else. I know you will, it's par for the course in your case.



You must pass at least one greengrocer on your weekly 150 mile cycle surely?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

NO THIS IS ABOUT WHITE POTATOES. 

Don't pick a fight with me scumbag.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

WHITE potatoes??  You fucking racist


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Only  'certain types' of hand-wringing liberals (but i'm neither saying or implying that i mean them) would have such social prejudices about the humble w/c white potato


----------



## xes (Oct 13, 2008)

hehe 10 pages of the same old faces,fighting over the same old shit


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

It's been fun here while I was busy, eh?

Anyway...



nino_savatte said:


> No, that is not what I was saying and please, stop putting words into my mouth.


OK, so perhaps you'd better paint me the picture you promised here, because I don't know what you were trying to depict.



nino_savatte said:


> Well, as I said, I find his lack of honesty reprehensible. Only a certain type of poster would use words like the "race industry". I don't think I need to paint any pictures.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Nino - do yourself a favour and just do a search for all your recent posts. Every single one on the first page revolves around insults and arguments.
> 
> Then try the same for me - crap about Birthdays, advice on frozen meat,  Peter Kay and other light-hearted, inconsequential crap. I'm far from perfect, but I'm not a 2d argumentative blowhard like yourself either. Please consider giving it a rest for once.



Nonsense. If you're looking for an example of a "blowhard" you should try looking in the mirror sometime.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Only  'certain types' of hand-wringing liberals (but i'm neither saying or implying that i mean them) would have such social prejudices about the humble w/c white potato



What the fuck are you talking about?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

Ah, another lazy insult. But good to see you don't quibble with the accuracy of the post's content then.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> You must pass at least one greengrocer on your weekly 150 mile cycle surely?



Funny how the actual topic of the thread has gone out of the window now - hasn't it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Darios said:


> That may well be the case Danny, however "the race industry" appears to be popularly associated with the "do-gooder left".


Wrongly, then. 



Darios said:


> What is a "mutualist dupe of neoliberal individualism"?


That would be agorists, objectivists and "anarcho"-capitalist fellow-travellers.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Funny how the actual topic of the thread has gone out of the window now - hasn't it?


I wonder how on earth that happened?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Ah, another lazy insult. But good to see you don't quibble with the accuracy of the post's content then.



Is this addressed to me, arsewipe? ROTFLMAO!!!! He thinks it's a "lazy insult". Truth is, you don't think.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder how on earth that happened?



Use your... brain (if you have one).


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder how on earth that happened?



It's am amazing coincidence that thread with Nino get involved in interminable arguments, isn't it?

And that his posts always seem to be confrontational and full of insults. Look, above he's doing the same. Remarkable.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

It's amazing the numbers of threads you pop up on just to have a scrap.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

> And that his posts always seem to be confrontational and full of insults.



That's something of an exaggeration but par for the course.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Wrongly, then.



I'd argue that some of them fell hook-line-and-sinker for it though and ended up implementing and policing the program. They may not have been the immediate benificiaries or designers of the plan, but they were/are associated with it. A lot of them have begun to realise this over the last few years, but most still plough on and move ever closer to the sort of seperatist culturalist crap the BNP peddles.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

Quite incredible isn't it - you'd think that it if you did a 'lasts posts' search on my contributions then you'd see bad tempered argument after argument. But it simply doesn't seem to be the case unfortunately.

Type 'nino_savatte' in however and it's a different story. Every one a bunfest winner.


----------



## Darios (Oct 13, 2008)

xes said:


> hehe 10 pages of the same old faces,fighting over the same old shit



Truly lolz-tastic it is. Not just one classic urban pile-on, but TWO in the same thread.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?



I refer the honourable Gentleman to my post 219


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

Still cross threading, tarannau? Hypocrite? You? Never!


----------



## Darios (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Wrongly, then.
> 
> That would be agorists, objectivists and "anarcho"-capitalist fellow-travellers.



By a similar token, "Wrongly, then", you associate us with the statist ideology of "neo-liberalism"


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Funny how the actual topic of the thread has gone out of the window now - hasn't it?



and how did that happen, one wonders.

Grow up.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Darios said:


> By a similar token, "Wrongly, then", you associate us with the statist ideology of "neo-liberalism"



It's marvelous how right-libertarian capitalist moaners like darios constantly have to distance themselves from the operating of capitalism isn't it? Almost like they know the system doesn't work but think this proves that it does. How can they square this circle?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 13, 2008)

The chant certainly has the potential to be both sung and heard as racist; perhaps some of those singing it meant it to be and some didn't, just as some of those hearing it would have got the racism while others wouldn't. Two things are certain; it was meant to be offensive and it wasn't funny...not a moment for Spurs fans to be proud of.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> and how did that happen, one wonders.
> 
> Grow up.



That's right, rather that look at yourselves, it's easier to blame someone else.

Grow up.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Darios said:


> By a similar token, "Wrongly, then", you associate us with the statist ideology of "neo-liberalism"


No, I said you were its dupes.  In that you accept the same version of individualism that they peddle.


----------



## Darios (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> No, I said you were its dupes.  In that you accept the same version of individualism that they peddle.



Explain please. Which version?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Still cross threading, tarannau? Hypocrite? You? Never!



Silly me, using your own posts to point to you being intolerant and even arguing about the most trivial things. Me bad.

What I really should do is go onto an unrelated thread, say one about Rats on suburban, and have a blatant stupidly pop after one of my posts:



			
				nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Leave it out. Most rats are bigger than the average domestic cat.



Because we can all believe that you're in the right and that your principles are sound. I love the accusations of hypocrisy jumping about me.

Poor you Nino. It must be awful being so misunderstood, having no idea why arguments follow you around.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I'd argue that some of them fell hook-line-and-sinker for it though and ended up implementing and policing the program.


Yes, through the mechansm of civil society, in the interests of the ruling elite.  I was simplifying for clarity, but you're right, I shouldn't hve.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> That's right, rather that look at yourselves, it's easier to blame someone else.
> 
> Grow up.



{giggles}

yes dear.  Your self awareness is something we all should seek to emulate


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 13, 2008)




----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Yes, through the mechansm of civil society, in the interests of the ruling elite.  I was simplifying for clarity, but you're right, I shouldn't hve.



In all honesty, it's not like it matters on this thread now


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> {giggles}
> 
> yes dear.  Your self awareness is something we all should seek to emulate



Pathetic.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Darios said:


> Explain please. Which version?


I run here the danger of cross thread complication, but in the sense in which - in the theory forum - you invited me to join with strands of capitalist individualism and I declined.  You were disappointed, but ought not to have been surprised, because I had already explained that the "free" market you anthropomorphise is neither free nor equal, and that your analysis is blind to class and power inequalities.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> In all honesty, it's not like it matters on this thread now


No.  

Psst:  I can get my hands on some maris piper.  Anyone interested?


----------



## Darios (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> I run here the danger of cross thread complication, but in the sense in which - in the theory forum - you invited me to join with strands of capitalist individualism and I declined.  You were disappointed, but ought not to have been surprised, because I had already explained that the "free" market you anthropomorphise is neither free nor equal, and that your analysis is blind to class and power inequalities.



The society you want will never be completely free, nor completely equal. And talking of "anthromorphising" the free market is pretty rich considering you - I presume - hold collectivist values.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Darios said:


> And talking of "anthromorphising" the free market is pretty rich considering you - I presume - hold collectivist values.


 Our exchange is getting way off topic, but I was of course referring to faith in the invisible hand to put things right.  What on earth are you referring to?


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

CyberRose said:


>





gonna have to nick that


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

...and pretend it's 2006?


----------



## treelover (Oct 13, 2008)

> Well, as I said, I find his lack of honesty reprehensible. Only a certain type of poster would use words like the "race industry". I don't think I need to paint any pictures.




Whether or not the Op was being provocative, i thougt this was a open discussion board, with open debate on all issues. Instead we get the usual suspects 'pinging the racism radar' who scan urban ever alert to intonations of bigotry or frank but neccessary discussions on migration , etc no matter how nebulous. Imo, there is a 'race industry, though with the sacking of Jasper and the now constant attacks on 'official multi-culturalism', a declining one. AS DLR said, many on the left have despaired at the part of the Lefts support for this divisive ideology which one can argue now manifests in the ridiculous No Borders outfit which has less support than Bogchester Rovers in the public mind.I also think that while racism is abhorrent and can lead to the most dreadful outcomes, it is not the only 'oppression' yet the amount of space it elicits here, along with posts on the BNP is often astounding


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

treelover said:


> 'pinging the racism radar'



an even worse phrase than 'race industry.'

There are those - and plenty of 'em sadly - who show less inclination to oppose racism than FIFA do


----------



## Paul_N17 (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Why?  Why would the writer leave out one obvious avenue for offensiveness? Why are you so certain they did?  Unless you wrote it, I don’t see where your certainty comes from.



I agree we can't know for sure but.... since when have football fans or chants ever been subtle? If the fans had truly wanted to racially abuse him then it is unlikely we'd be sitting here discussing whether or not the chant was racist or whether it was about Judas or lynchings. We'd be left in no doubt.

As for why they wouldn't go as far as racism... well generally speaking pretty much anything goes these days on the 'terraces' bar outright racism. Tottenham fans in the late 70s organised among themselves to rid the club of its NF element (who were big in Tottenham at the time). In many respects, well ahead of time in terms of isolating and marginalising the racists. Eventually the same happened at most clubs. It was a case of the fans policing themselves rather than any 'kick it out' style campaign that saw large scale racist chanting against black players disappear.

So that in respect, the OP probably has a point. These sort of preachy campaigns to football fans will probably be counter productive.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Tatchell was calling for a one game ban for spurs fans last week.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Tatchell was calling for a one game ban for spurs fans last week.


That's plain daft.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 13, 2008)

_float_ said:


> but only one person being accused of all sorts of stuff (being a returned banned poster, .



He is a returning banned poster.  He's outed himself to several people.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 13, 2008)

_float_ said:


> "you are old stoic", "your banning was for threatening to violently attack another poster", .



These are true.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> He's outed himself to several people.


Ah, has he?  I didn't know.

These master criminals, always blab, don't they?


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

oh, is that who it is.  the old fool


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

You've done nino's trick of only reading half the thread you div.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Ah, has he?  I didn't know.
> 
> These master criminals, always blab, don't they?



I sussed it very quickly and I don't even know the people he refers to knowing irl!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> I sussed it very quickly and I don't even know the people he refers to knowing irl!


Sussing him and him confessing to several people are different things.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Sussing him and him confessing to several people are different things.



I didn't say he confessed.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> I didn't say he confessed.


Ah, so it was involuntary self outing he performed?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Ah, so it was involuntary self outing he performed?



Yes, he gave away some personal info.  See butcher's post about it on this thread.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Yes, he gave away some personal info.  See butcher's post about it on this thread.


Yeah, I saw that.  I just obviously use the phrase _to out oneself_ in a different way to you.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Yeah, I saw that.  I just obviously use the phrase _to out oneself_ in a different way to you.



Yeah, people can out themselves inadvertently.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Yeah, people can out themselves inadvertently.


Just as well, I suppose.  Otherwise where would we be?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Those accustomed to British football are well aware that racist chanting has long been an unpleasant feature of or game yet ,apparently,some professional race industry wankers are trying to find the amusingly offensive chant of Tottenham fans towards Sol Campbell racist.
> 
> Essentially it goes (to the tune of lord of the dance)
> Sol SOl  wherever you may be
> ...



Funny: my kid and I were talking about this yesterday. She says that it's common in UK and other european countries, for soccer fans to chant racist chants at minority players.

If you tried something like that here, like a section chanting some racist bullshit at some black pitcher in the NL, there'd be a riot in the stands.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Don't minority types go to soccer games there?

Do they just sit there while these yobs are chanting racist stuff?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Funny: my kid and I were talking about this yesterday. She says that it's common in UK and other european countries, for soccer fans to chant racist chants at minority players.
> 
> If you tried something like that here, like a section chanting some racist bullshit at some black pitcher in the NL, there'd be a riot in the stands.



Your kid got a lot of experience of attending UK football then JC2.

It's weird how it chnages from your kid saying it into fact midway between the two paragrpahs isn't it?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Your kid got a lot of experience of attending UK football then JC2.
> 
> It's weird how it chnages from your kid saying it into fact midway between the two paragrpahs isn't it?



She can read. She's never been to the uk.

I'm assuming there's some truth in it, based on what the op says in the op.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Well, I am afraid there is very little truth in it, re English clubs, any more.  Used to be, but not for quite some time. It's now very rare here, tho still quite common in parts of Europe (see footie forum for various threads)


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Assume away, you'd be wrong to assume that it's "common in UK and other european countries, for soccer fans to chant racist chants at minority players." - it's not true of the UK at all. It would have been 30 years ago, but not today. And mostly because the fans sorted themselves out. Not much else. You know full well you're treading on thin ice here


----------



## cesare (Oct 13, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The chant certainly has the potential to be both sung and heard as racist; perhaps some of those singing it meant it to be and some didn't, just as some of those hearing it would have got the racism while others wouldn't. Two things are certain; it was meant to be offensive and it wasn't funny...not a moment for Spurs fans to be proud of.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Yes, that's how I see it too.

Although I guess the 'Lord Of The Dance' tune reinforces the Judas theme rather than the racist one - but whoever came up with it clearly meant it to be offensive on a number of levels.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Your kid got a lot of experience of attending UK football then JC2.



Are you ignorant of what goes on in the UK and the EU, or are you just playing it that way, in the hopes of scoring points?




> Emile Heskey was defiant about the monkey chants directed at him by a section of the home support during the second half as frustration boiled over, and the Football Association is likely to make a complaint to Fifa about the incidents. "You've got to ignore it, get on with your game and enjoy your football," the striker said.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/sep/11/worldcup2010qualifiers.croatiafootballteam




> Fifa is to investigate after Spain fans hurled racist abuse at England's black players in Wednesday's friendly.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/4018421.stm




> Famine Song
> 
> I often wonder where they would have been
> If we hadn't have taken them in
> ...



Nice.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

those places aren't in England tho


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> You know full well you're treading on thin ice here



What a surprise: he goes for the point scoring.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> those places aren't in England tho



I didn't restrict it to England.

Where is it they sing the Famine Song?

Are the Rangers a UK team?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Now try and make sure you think the EU and the UK are the same and that i didn't seperate the UK from the EU.

You're swinging blindly Johhny -and you're landing punches on no one. Amazingly, you have even less knowledge of this particular topic than your usual ones on Europe.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

This is a bit...desperate Johnny in all honesty.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Now try and make sure you think the EU and the UK are the same and that i didn't seperate the UK from the EU.
> 
> You're swinging blindly Johhny -and you're landing punches on no one. Amazingly, you have even less knowledge of this particular topic than your usual ones on Europe.



That famine song is really nice. I think you take a different view of sports over there.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> This is a bit...desperate Johnny in all honesty.



Really. I say my kid read an article about racist chanting. You say she's full of it.

The media seems to disagree with you.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Maybe we do. Maybe we do. Has there ever been a more pointlessly obvious erpution into a thread than this one?


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I didn't restrict it to England.


but mine & butchers' answers were specifically about england - and I pointed out that it was still common in parts of Europe.



> Where is it they sing the Famine Song?


Rangers



> Are the Rangers a UK team?


no, they're just a bunch of cunts. And they're a Scottish team, there are no 'UK' teams, which may seem pedantic, but you try telling a Celtic or rangers fan they support a UK team


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Nice.


No cut and paste lyrics in politics, please.



PS. We don't have "INSTRUMENTAL" passages on the terraces.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

What do you know: an article from last month.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article1699263.ece

It's grotesque.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Really. I say my kid read an article about racist chanting. You say she's full of it.
> 
> The media seems to disagree with you.



Ok Johhny, football in the UK is ramped full of fans chanting racist songs at minority players. You're right. And so is your kid.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

editor said:


> No cut and paste lyrics in politics, please.
> 
> 
> 
> PS. We don't have "INSTRUMENTAL" passages on the terraces.



Whatever. I'm sure you're all well familiar with the words.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

editor said:


> PS. We don't have "INSTRUMENTAL" passages on the terraces.


We do, though.  And it's one of ours.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Ok Johhny, football in the UK is ramped full of fans chanting racist songs at minority players. You're right. And so is your kid.



I never said that. She said she'd read that it went on. You denied it.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> > Famine Song
> >
> > I often wonder where they would have been
> > If we hadn't have taken them in
> > ...



But not racist, offensive or anti-Irish apparently according to numerous journalists up here. And Rangers execs like Martin Bain get angry when asked why Rangers fans sing this.....


----------



## Jonti (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny, it's NEWS because it doesn't happen much.

It's NEWS that England won't play Spain in a friendly because of racist abuse, because mostly that just doesn't happen.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I never said that. She said she'd read that it went on. You denied it.





> She says that it's *common* in UK and other european countries, for soccer fans to chant racist chants at minority players



Too easy you are.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> but mine & butchers' answers were specifically about england - and I pointed out that it was still common in parts of Europe.
> 
> 
> Rangers
> ...



A team in the UK, would be a UK team. As opposed to Juventus, say.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> But not racist, offensive or anti-Irish apparently according to numerous journalists up here.


It's "good natured banter", and to suggest otherwise is anti-Protestant.
Everyone knows that.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Juventus, say.



Nicely googled! 

And a good pick.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> A team in the UK, would be a UK team.


No it wouldn't.  There's no UK football association.  No UK league to play in.  And no UK national squad.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Jonti said:


> Johnny, it's NEWS because it doesn't happen much.



Google seems to be telling me something different.

Look, I can see why this would be embarassing to you, but it seems hard to deny that it does in fact happen.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> A team in the UK, would be a UK team. As opposed to Juventus, say.



try telling tat to a Rangers fan.

And the fact that there has been such a fuss over the anti-Campbell chants should give even you a clue that that kind of thing is not common here anymore


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> No it wouldn't.  There's no UK football association.  No UK league to play in.  And no UK national squad.



I didn't call it a 'national squad'.

Whatever. You knew what I meant.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

Who here has denied that it happens? name and shame.


----------



## brasicritique (Oct 13, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> You're always out to pick fights - aren't you?



the hypcocrasy is astounding  go on butcthers call him an ike lizard infiltrator he desrves it


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> try telling tat to a Rangers fan.
> 
> And the fact that there has been such a fuss over the anti-Campbell chants should give even you a clue that that kind of thing is not common here anymore



Google 'racist chanting UK football'


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Google seems to be telling me something different.
> 
> Look, I can see why this would be embarassing to you, but it seems hard to deny that it does in fact happen.



except it doesnt happen here, particularly.  As your googling actually shows.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Google 'racist chanting UK football'



You fucking google it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You knew what I meant.


You think there are UK football teams.  There aren't.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Google seems to be telling me something different.
> 
> Look, I can see why this would be embarassing to you, but it seems hard to deny that it does in fact happen.


Some nice goalpost shifting there, Johnny.  Nobody said it doesn't happen, did they?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Anyway, it's bizarre and shameful that it happens. Defend or dissemble all you want.

You can claim your superiority in whatever area you choose, but this wouldn't be tolerated here.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

In Bloom said:


> Some nice goalpost shifting there, Johnny.  Nobody said it doesn't happen, did they?



Does it happen?


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

In Bloom said:


> Some nice goalpost shifting there, Johnny. Nobody said it doesn't happen, did they?





You don't understand. According to an article his kid read, it's very common. Shameful.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> You fucking google it.



Ashamed are we? I'm assuming so, now that you're breaking out the cursing. Didn't take long.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Defend or dissemble all you want.


Well, not even the thread starter, who doesn't think the chant in question is racist, is defending the chant.  So I'm not sure who is defending anything, Johnny.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Does it happen?


Clearly it does, sometimes.  That doesn't make it "common" though.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

Oooooooh! Canaadaaaaaaaaaaa!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> You don't understand. According to an article his kid read, it's very common. Shameful.



Did you talk to her too?

To me she said 'it happens'.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

Shit happens.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Ashamed are we? I'm assuming so, now that you're breaking out the cursing. Didn't take long.



Another solid assumption.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Google seems to be telling me something different.
> 
> Look, I can see why this would be embarassing to you, but it seems hard to deny that it does in fact happen.


Racist chants are now _ extraordinarily_ rare in British football, whatever Google tells you.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Google 'racist chanting UK football'



okay, done it.  the front page lists NO, 0, fuck all, chants _from_ England!  And just that one story about Rangers (who everyone will agrees are just a bunch of throwback retards). Pisspoor show johnny


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> Oooooooh! Canaadaaaaaaaaaaa!



The fact that this happens, is a sign of the racism that exists. Make light of it all you want. You're dark skinned: it must warm your heart to live in such a colourblind place.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

belboid said:


> okay, done it.  the front page lists NO, 0, fuck all, chants _from_ England!  And just that one story about Rangers (who everyone will agrees are just a bunch of throwback retards). Pisspoor show johnny



I said the UK; the chant is a racist chant against the Irish. It's all 'in house', as it were.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

I have never stated that racism no longer exists in the UK. If you think otherwise show me where I have.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Did you talk to her too?
> 
> To me she said 'it happens'.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Funny: my kid and I were talking about this yesterday. *She says that it's common* in UK and other european countries, for soccer fans to chant racist chants at minority players.


Make your mind up, Johnny.  If you're going to post ill-informed bullshit, don't hide behind your kids, eh?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Another solid assumption.



You're_ not_ ashamed of it?


----------



## Jonti (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Does it happen?


Yes, but so rarely it even makes the _international_ news when it does.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I said the UK; the chant is a racist chant against the Irish. It's all 'in house', as it were.



Oh you tool.

England refuse to play in Madrid because of not enough racist abuse


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

fuck me, but you're even more wilfully ignorant than 'Al kahul' & nino combined johnny


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You're_ not_ ashamed of it?



Of something that you've just put in your kids mouth?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> I have never stated that racism no longer exists in the UK. If you think otherwise show me where I have.



You're joining in the general hilarity being directed at me, for my bringing up this topic. I just found that somewhat perplexing, given that you're a potential target yourself.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

im in ur uk
in ur footie grounds
exposin ur racists


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I said the UK; the chant is a racist chant against the Irish. It's all 'in house', as it were.


If you want to say Rangers has a problem with some of its fans, go ahead; you'd be right.  But don't make a fool of yourself saying it has anything to do with English football, or this made up notion of UK football.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You're joining in the general hilarity being directed at me, for my bringing up this topic. I just found that somewhat perplexing, given that you're a potential target yourself.



so, the one incident you have managed to find, plus this one (where the racism is debatable) prove that such chants are common _across_[ the UK?  Are you really arguing that?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Jonti said:


> Yes, but so rarely it even makes the _international_ news when it does.



So that famine song doesn't get sung very much?


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You're joining in the general hilarity being directed at me, for my bringing up this topic. I just found that somewhat perplexing, given that you're a potential target yourself.





What the fuck are you on about? Everyone here acknowledges that racist chants happen. You said your kid told you they were common. Those of us who live here (in the UK) and actually attend football matches are telling you in fact it is quite rare. How does this equate to denying the existence of racism?

Stop trying to make allies, you twat.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> If you want to say Rangers has a problem with some of its fans, go ahead; you'd be right.  But don't make a fool of yourself saying it has anything to do with English football, or this made up notion of UK football.



It's funny: usually when I say 'England', everyone jumps up and yells, 'We're the UK! We're the UK!'

Except for today. Today, you're all English.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

Well that about sums everything up.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> What the fuck are you on about? Everyone here acknowledges that racist chants happen. You said your kid told you they were common. Those of us who live here (in the UK) and actually attend football matches are telling you in fact it is quite rare. How does this equate to denying the existence of racism?
> 
> Stop trying to make allies, you twat.



I don't want you as an ally.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So that famine song doesn't get sung very much?


One (disgusting and sectarian) chant does not an endemic culture of racism make.

Honestly, there are far more common and more obvious examples of racism in the UK, without this piss weak "Football fans are racist" nonsense muddying the water.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's funny: usually when I say 'England', everyone jumps up and yells, 'We're the UK! We're the UK!'



Really?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

I'm off to the refrigerator for some breakfast. I'll bid all you Englishmen adieu for now.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

What about when the chips are down and butchers is carrying a knife, eyeing those ketchup covered chips lustfully?


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's funny: usually when I say 'England', everyone jumps up and yells, 'We're the UK! We're the UK!'
> 
> Except for today. Today, you're all English.


danny la rouge, forwarding the cause of English nationalism


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's funny: usually when I say 'England', everyone jumps up and yells, 'We're the UK! We're the UK!'
> 
> Except for today. Today, you're all English.


No, I'm Welsh and staying that way

And racist chanting remains _incredibly rare_ at football games in the UK, no matter what you've read on Google.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Today, you're all English.


I'm not.

Try and get the difference: when you talk of Gordon Brown you need to say he's the UK PM, not the English PM.  When you talk of Rangers, they're a Scottish team, not a UK team.  It's quite simple.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

His _daughter_ read it, editor. And that's damning as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

editor said:


> No, I'm Welsh and staying that way
> 
> And racist chanting remains _incredibly rare_ at football games in the UK, no matter what you've read on Google.



That's good. I see they passed some sort of law against it, back in 1991. Doesn't that law apply to the famine song?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 13, 2008)

I love it when stupid threads sink to new levels of stupid.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> His _daughter_ read it, editor. And that's damning as far as I'm concerned.



Did you ever read a book called Uncle Tom's Cabin?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

In Bloom said:


> danny la rouge, forwarding the cause of English nationalism




Actually, yes.  Now fuck off home.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Was he up drinking all night or something?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Did you ever read a book called Uncle Tom's Cabin?



That's how it's going is it? Fucking hell.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's good. I see they passed some sort of law against it, back in 1991. Doesn't that law apply to the famine song?


Jesus, Johnny!  Stop digging.  It's been explained to you.  Stop and digest what people are saying.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So that famine song doesn't get sung very much?



Not that much no. It's a song sung by a section of supporters at one club. Scummy, racist and cretinous though that song is it's being sung does not therefore make UK/Scottish/English football grounds on a par with Nuremburg rallies or the same as they were 10/15/20/25/30 years ago.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Jesus, Johnny!  Stop digging.  It's been explained to you.  Stop and digest what people are saying.



I don't want to research a thesis: does the law apply to the famine song, or not?


----------



## Paul_N17 (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Google 'racist chanting UK football'



Try 'racist chanting ENGLISH football' and see the difference.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> Not that much no. It's a song sung by a section of supporters at one club. Scummy, racist and cretinous though that song is it's being sung *does not therefore make UK/Scottish/English football grounds on a par with Nuremburg rallies* or the same as they were 10/15/20/25/30 years ago.



Well, I'd certainly agree with that!


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't want to research a thesis: does the law apply to the famine song, or not?



Strathclyde police infoprmed Rangers FC that they would arrest those they caught singing it. Afaik there has as yet not been any arrests based on this. I live in Glasgow, i've heard the song sung and been at games where it's being sung.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> I'm not.
> 
> Try and get the difference: when you talk of Gordon Brown you need to say he's the UK PM, not the English PM.  When you talk of Rangers, they're a Scottish team, not a UK team.  It's quite simple.



Aren't they a team playing within the United Kingdom?


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's good. I see they passed some sort of law against it, back in 1991. Doesn't that law apply to the famine song?


I've never even_ heard_ of this famine song until now, but if you're trying to suggest that UK terraces regularly ring to its unpleasant lyrics and  "INSTRUMENTAL" passage, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Racist chanting is extremely rare at UK football games. Please try and comprehend this fact.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Did you ever read a book called Uncle Tom's Cabin?


Jesus fucking Christ.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well, I'd certainly agree with that!



Be an idea if you finished the sentence off aswell.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> Be an idea if you finished the sentence off aswell.



He's made refused cry now.

Get a grip johnny.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> Not that much no. It's a song sung by a section of supporters at one club. Scummy, racist and cretinous though that song is it's being sung does not therefore make UK/Scottish/English football grounds on a par with Nuremburg rallies *or the same as they were 10/15/20/25/30 years ago*.



Good: it sounds like you're making progress.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Actually, yes.  Now fuck off home.


You know, my niece read an article that said this kind of racism was common on urban75.  I never believed it until now


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

They don't lynch too many blacks in the US anymore, but that doesn't really mean that racism has gone away there.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> A team in the UK, would be a UK team. As opposed to Juventus, say.



No. National identification is a bit more complicated than you seem to imagine.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> They don't lynch too many blacks in the US anymore, but that doesn't really mean that racism has gone away there.


It gets better!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

edit: you caught it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't want to research a thesis: does the law apply to the famine song, or not?


Oh fer feck sake.

I think it's a disgusting song, sung by bigoted idiots.  It's been panned, but some Rangers-heads say picking on it is just about giving Rangers a kicking.  I disagree.  Is it unlawful to sing it?  Who knows.  Not that interested.

However, Rangers is a Scottish team, playing in Scotland.  It has a problem with some of its fans.  

That does not equal endemic racism in football throughout the UK.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> They don't lynch too many blacks in the US anymore, but that doesn't really mean that racism has gone away there.



Can't remember anyone saying that because the level of open and tolerated racism on the 'terraces' of English/Scottish/Britiash/UK football stadia has diminished that this in turn means that racism has gone away. Has the level of overt and open racist abuse and chanting on the terraces gone down in recent times yes. has racism in the UK/Briatian/Scotland/England gone away? No.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Aren't they a team playing within the United Kingdom?


They are located on the British landmass.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> They don't lynch too many blacks in the US anymore, but that doesn't really mean that racism has gone away there.


Seeing as you're hell bent on ignoring the first hand, eye witness evidence from people who regularly go to football games and take a keen interest in the sport, perhaps you could furnish us with some examples of recent outbreaks of football-related racism around the UK?

You've already covered Scotland, so let's see some examples from other areas of the UK.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> Can't remember anyone saying that because the level of open and tolerated racism on the 'terraces' of English/Scottish/Britiash/UK football stadia has diminished that this in turn means that racism has gone away. Has the level of overt and open racist abuse and chanting on the terraces gone down in recent times yes. has racism in the UK/Briatian/Scotland/England gone away? No.



Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

editor said:


> Seeing as you're hell bent on ignoring the first hand, eye witness evidence from people who regularly go to football games and take a keen interest in the sport, perhaps you could furnish us with some examples of recent outbreaks of football-related racism around the UK?



What's my time frame here?


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 13, 2008)

I've had a season ticket with Sheff Utd for about 15 years now, and been to pretty much every home game since 1988 (ironically I think my first ever Blades match was against West Ham ). In that time I've never heard any racist chanting whatsoever, despite hearing the odd individual shout something racist (possibly on something like 3 occasions).


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up.



Numerous posters on here cleared it up way before me.


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Aren't they a team playing within the United Kingdom?


They also play within the EU, but that doesn't mean you can use experiences in Spain to analyse English clubs...


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> They also play within the EU, but that doesn't mean you can use experiences in Spain to analyse English clubs...


I believe Ranger play in the Northern Hemisphere.  So racism in Canada's sports stadia must be worrying Johnny.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

He's oddly quiet on that - maybe he's reading Uncle Tom's Cabin part 2.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What's my time frame here?


Let's start with the last year. Show us how "common" it is.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> He's oddly quiet on that - maybe he's reading Uncle Tom's Cabin part 2.


Probably.  And rolling his eyes.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 13, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> I believe Rangers play in the Northern Hemisphere.  So racism in Canada's sports stadia must be worrying Johnny.



Danny it's 'the Rangers'; please pay attention to detail.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 13, 2008)

editor said:


> Seeing as you're hell bent on ignoring the first hand, eye witness evidence from people who regularly go to football games and take a keen interest in the sport, perhaps you could furnish us with some examples of recent outbreaks of football-related racism around the UK?
> 
> .



http://everything2.com/e2node/Fucking%20lazy%20thick%20nigger

http://stateofthegame.co.uk/2006/11/15/football-bigotry-in-the-uk/

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...football-very-best-of-role-models-419155.html




> Research and commentaries on racism in the English game since that report was published in 1998 suggest that problems of racialized exclusion in football remain. Bradbury and Williams conclude that the *public outrage in Britain about the incidents in Madrid reflect an over-concentration on silencing public expressions of racism—combating overt, collective fan outbreaks—at the expense of addressing the racialized structures of power that continue to shape access, opportunities and acceptance of ethnic minorities within professional football in England*.



http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a741593063~db=all


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

These are all links he's read through and so is sure they're supporting his position. Very dangerous high-risk game JC2.


----------



## cesare (Oct 13, 2008)

It would be interesting to compare "racialized structures of power that continue to shape access, opportunities and acceptance ... " of ethnic minorities in English football compared with those of First Nations people in Ice Hockey in Canada.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> These are all links he's read through and so is sure they're supporting his position. Very dangerous high-risk game JC2.



1) Right this link:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...football-very-best-of-role-models-419155.html

Backs up everything everyone but you says.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

2) Is about Ron Atkinosn who was immediately booted and shunned across the county, attacked and made a pariah.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> These are all links he's read through and so is sure they're supporting his position. Very dangerous high-risk game JC2.



I don't think he's read those links through at all. If he has and he believes that they support his position, then it doesn't say much for either his comprehension, his powers of reasoning or both. Alternatively he's not really interested in the accuracy or otherwise of his posts, just in getting a reaction.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

3) Is a piece largely about Mike Newell and his sexism comments from 2 years ago, _on a blog_. The only Racism mentioned is _against English_ players from Germans and Spanish fans.

Well done Johnny


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I don't think he's read those links through at all.


I think you may be right. He's just seen keywords in the Google search.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Fucking hell, this thread keeps giving - old stoic, then nino, now JC2.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Is he right now googling _in depth_ do you think?

(or asking his kid)


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

Probably asking his kid. The kid seems to be a font. Naive, but you have to admire the ernest.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 13, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> The kid seems to be a font.


Comic sans.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 13, 2008)

Dreams of Times New Roman.


----------



## JHE (Oct 13, 2008)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It _is_ homophobic and Spuirs fans have been claiming that Campbell is gay from the moment that he did the dirty, despite there being no more evidence for his homosexuality than there is for Wenger being a pederast.



Thanks for the info.  If that's the line taken by Spurs fans, then, yes, I agree it is anti-gay (or homophobic as people say now) - using a pretence that Campbell is gay as a way of slagging him off - and it does explain the nasty claim that he has HIV.


----------



## JHE (Oct 13, 2008)

editor said:


> It looks like even the Bible isn't sure.
> 
> 
> LOL.



I'm not sure what you're LOLing at.  That the Bible is contradictory?  Well, yes, it is!

Matthew's account of Judas' demise (i.e., that the treacherous wretch hanged himself) is well known in kulchas that have been soaked in Christianity and a common gloss on it that is that he hanged himself from a tree.

I'd have thought a good south Walian lad like you would have been brought up on biblical stuff like that - but apparently not.  Still, please don't assume that your innocence in the matter of Christian stories is general.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2008)

JHE said:


> I'd have thought a good south Walian lad like you would have been brought up on biblical stuff like that - but apparently not.  Still, please don't assume that your innocence in the matter of Christian stories is general.


I'm LOLing because I proved my point.


----------



## Meltingpot (Oct 13, 2008)

JHE said:


> I'm not sure what you're LOLing at.  That the Bible is contradictory?  Well, yes, it is!
> 
> Matthew's account of Judas' demise (i.e., that the treacherous wretch hanged himself) is well known in kulchas that have been soaked in Christianity and a common gloss on it that is that he hanged himself from a tree.
> 
> I'd have thought a good south Walian lad like you would have been brought up on biblical stuff like that - but apparently not.  Still, please don't assume that your innocence in the matter of Christian stories is general.



Withouit checking my Bible; I thought Judas was killed with a knife into the stomach? His title "Iscariot" derives from the weapon he carried, a curved bladed knife called a "sicarii" (he was an assassin).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Nope


----------



## Meltingpot (Oct 13, 2008)

That's what Donovan Joyce reckons in "The Jesus Scroll."


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

Did he write the bible?


----------



## obanite (Oct 13, 2008)

Wow, this thread reminds me of p&p back when I first stumbled across urban years ago! It's even the same people arguing 

<checks it isn't a necro'd thread...>


----------



## Meltingpot (Oct 13, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Did he write the bible?



Yeah - no sorry I can't lie, no he didn't, he's an Aussie who drinks whisky and builds model ships (according to the book's cover).

Fact is though, no one person wrote the Bible, and none of the gospel authors actually witnessed the events they were writing about (which is one reason there are so many contradictions).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2008)

None of them say that Judas dies as you and your mate suggest either.


----------



## belboid (Oct 13, 2008)

Meltingpot said:


> Yeah - no sorry I can't lie, no he didn't, he's an Aussie who drinks whisky and builds model ships (according to the book's cover).
> 
> Fact is though, no one person wrote the Bible, and none of the gospel authors actually witnessed the events they were writing about (which is one reason there are so many contradictions).



two of them were meant to have, actually (tho they obviously didn't, considering the contradictions and impossibilities)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

cesare said:


> It would be interesting to compare "racialized structures of power that continue to shape access, opportunities and acceptance ... " of ethnic minorities in English football compared with those of First Nations people in Ice Hockey in Canada.



Do some research, start a thread. Even today, imo, Canada exhibits systemic racism against native american people, and not enough is being done to address it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> 3) Is a piece largely about Mike Newell and his sexism comments from 2 years ago, _on a blog_. The only Racism mentioned is _against English_ players from Germans and Spanish fans.
> 
> Well done Johnny



The question from the editor, was for examples of racism within or involving British football. No matter the public reaction, these things did occur.

Also, you've done nothing to address the author's conclusions that the displays of public outrage about overt racism, like chanting, does nothing to address - masks, even - a more systemic racism concerning opportunites for minorities on British football.

But I haven't finished the thread: maybe you get to that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

This was prepared in 2002, so maybe things have changed drastically since then:



> Although it is estimated that around 15-20% of professional footballers are black
> 
> • There are still no British born Asian professionals playing regular first team football
> •  There are still only a small handful of black managers and coaches
> ...



http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/renvall/birold/Heroes_papers_Vaughan1.html


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

> *Racism still a barrier on the terraces*
> 
> By Cahal Milmo and Matthew Beard
> Tuesday, 12 October 2004
> ...



http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/racism-still-a-barrier-on-the-terraces-543376.html


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

> *English football's claim to be fair and equal is fatally undermined by the current plight of the country's black coaches. *
> 
> These statistics show the scale of the problem:
> 
> ...



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/6376121.stm


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

edit


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

edit


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

jesus, you are a bit stupid aren't you JC2?  None of those articles - none of which would be denied for a moment by anyone here, in anyway support your original assertion that racist _chanting_ was common on 'uk' footie grounds. What you have there are examples of what - as you've just admitted - also happens within the canadian hockey circuit.

Your last two posts are the only sensible things you've come out with on this thread.


----------



## cesare (Oct 14, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do some research, start a thread. Even today, imo, Canada exhibits systemic racism against native american people, and not enough is being done to address it.



There's some interesting commentary here http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA118,M1

But my point is your raising of the systemic racism issue in sport in the UK, when Canada's record is infinitely worse.


----------



## Athos (Oct 14, 2008)

Surely, that 'song' *could* be interpreted as racist; but, equally, there is a non-racist interpretation, too.

In truth, I would be surprised if those singing it were aware of either the means of Judas' death, or the history of racist murders in the US in the early part of the last centuary.  Instead, I suspect that the reference to a tree is simply because they wanted something to rhyme with 'insanity' and 'HIV.'

I understand that that song is pretty widely sung amongst Tottenham fans, and (perhaps naively) I don't think that the vast majority of them do so with any racist intent.

That said, it is a pretty shitty thing to ridicule someones mental health problems, and to allude to allegations about their sexuality with crude references to HIV; that part is arguably homophobic.


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

why do people keep thinking footie fans (even spurs ones) are thick as pigshit? _Evryone_ on here knows about US lynchings, the large majority seem to know about judas' (supposed) method of suicide, yet nearly all Spurs fans supposedly don't?  makes no sense.

And, it isn't 'pretty widely sung' amongst spurs fans, it was sung by one section of the crowd at one match.

Oh, and and, it isn't 'arguably' homophobic, it blatantly is.


----------



## Athos (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> why do people keep thinking footie fans (even spurs ones) are thick as pigshit? _Evryone_ on here knows about US lynchings, the large majority seem to know about judas' (supposed) method of suicide, yet nearly all Spurs fans supposedly don't?  makes no sense.
> 
> And, it isn't 'pretty widely sung' amongst spurs fans, it was sung by one section of the crowd at one match.
> 
> Oh, and and, it isn't 'arguably' homophobic, it blatantly is.



Yes, I'm sure that the vast majority of people (even Tottenham fans!) know that lynchings occured, but I don't believe that most of them would immediately link a reference to 'hanging from a tree' to those lynchings, in this context.

Nor do I believe that most people would see that line as a reference to Judas' demise.

Of course, I can't prove that, it's just my feeling form spending far too many hours at football matches.

But it is a long time since I saw Tottenham (being a Luton fan), so I have had to take my colleague's word for the fact that that song is fairly widely sung at White Hart Lane (as he's a season ticket holder).

And I don't think the case for homophobia is as clear cut as you say, either; wasn't there a rumour that he had a breakdown because he thought he had contracted HIV?  If so, the line *could be* a reference to his specific problems, rather than a jibe at all gay people.  I do think that there's more of an argument that it is homophobic than racist, though, just I don't think is as blatant as you suggest.

In any event, the focus upon whether or not it is racist and/or homophobic is intersting in itself.  That song is fucking nasty, and potentially very hurtful, regardless of those labels.  But the focus on finding an '...ism' or an '...obia' seems to have obscured that fact.  It almost implies that 'political correctness' [I don't want to sound like a Daily mail reader there, but it seems the most apt phrase] trumps basic human decency.  No decent football fan should be singing that, regardless of whether it's racist or homophobic.


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

your last para is spot on. Not sure about hte others tho. I've also a mate who goes to many Spurs matches and she says she's _never_ heard it. Why would they sing it every week, Campbell only plays there once a year.


----------



## Athos (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> your last para is spot on. Not sure about hte others tho. I've also a mate who goes to many Spurs matches and she says she's _never_ heard it. Why would they sing it every week, Campbell only plays there once a year.



Beats me.  Just what I've been told.

But at least we're agreed that it's not a nice song.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> your last para is spot on. Not sure about hte others tho. I've also a mate who goes to many Spurs matches and she says she's _never_ heard it. Why would they sing it every week, Campbell only plays there once a year.



Do you lot only sing about Liverpool and Everton when you play them?


----------



## Athos (Oct 14, 2008)

We certainly sing about W***ord every week!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2008)

Exactly!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> why do people keep thinking footie fans (even spurs ones) are thick as pigshit? _Evryone_ on here knows about US lynchings, the large majority seem to know about judas' (supposed) method of suicide, yet nearly all Spurs fans supposedly don't?  makes no sense.


Exactly.



Athos said:


> No decent football fan should be singing that, regardless of whether it's racist or homophobic.


Exactly again.


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

we don't tend to single out old players every week. Then again, we don't have many that we don't want to forget. And we're not very inventive at the songs.  'We hate Notlob' being almost the height of our originality.  I spose when we do come up with a 'clever' new song it will be repeated for the next few games.  And then we forget what it was. Hmmm...


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> why do people keep thinking *footie* fans



Did you just say _footie_?!?!


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

sorry, _kickball_


----------



## Diamond (Oct 14, 2008)

There's a simple point about the chant that no-one's made yet.

It was initially reported as: 





> "we don't care if you're *swinging *from a tree".


                              not : 





> "we don't care if you're *hanging *from a tree".



From my point of view the initial chant has more racist overtones to it. Swinging from a tree suggests lynching because of the whole mechanics of hoisting someone up by their neck over the limb of a tree.

What's more the line features the same playful faux-naivete of the reference to lunacy.

That's what makes the chant so good at what it does - extreme prejudice depicted through nursery-rhyme allusions which play nicely against the sing-song quality of the Lord of the Dance tune.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> sorry, _kickball_



Played wearing a uniform and cleats.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

Diamond said:


> That's what makes the chant so good at what it does - extreme prejudice depicted through nursery-rhyme allusions which play nicely against the sing-song quality of the Lord of the Dance tune.



There was a rather undelightful wee ditty sung to the tune of 'Heads and shoulders knees and toes' by some at Everton in the 80's.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

rather interesting observations about the make up of supporters. Some people seem to think that supporters should reflect  the race of the players -so that the 15-20% of players being black should be reflected by teh support -why is that / Surely the supporters should just reflect the local area -which raises questions about the supporters in big cities like London birmingam and manchester and Black people buthardly in areas where Black people don't live.

Secondly - I have no evidence for this apart from my own experience so I would welcome other people's experiences but Black Londoners I have met tended ,when they supported a team,to support teams like liverpool and ManU rather than local ones.

Lastly -Asian britons and football - there are hardly any Asian origined Britons playing proffessional football (fulham ?)  but surely that is a reflection of the Asians themselves and their own interests who seem,conversely,to do extremely well in english cricket.


----------



## Diamond (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> rather interesting observations about the make up of supporters. Some people seem to think that supporters should reflect  the race of the players -so that the 15-20% of players being black should be reflected by teh support -why is that / Surely the supporters should just reflect the local area -which raises questions about the supporters in big cities like London birmingam and manchester and Black people buthardly in areas where Black people don't live.
> 
> Secondly - I have no evidence for this apart from my own experience so I would welcome other people's experiences but Black Londoners I have met tended ,when they supported a team,to support teams like liverpool and ManU rather than local ones.
> 
> Lastly -Asian britons and football - there are hardly any Asian origined Britons playing proffessional football (fulham ?)  but surely that is a reflection of the Asians themselves and their own interests who seem,conversely,to do extremely well in english cricket.


----------



## d.a.s.h (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Lastly -Asian britons and football - there are hardly any Asian origined Britons playing proffessional football (fulham ?)  but surely that is a reflection of the Asians themselves and their own interests who seem,conversely,to do extremely well in english cricket.



Probably true. Apart from cricket, Asians don't seem particularly interested in/obsessed by sport. India has only won about 20 medals at the Olympics since 1900 - most of those were for field hockey. That's not much for a nation of around 1 billion people.


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

that just show how ignorant you really are then.

Hardly surprising not many black people wanted to support the Chelsea team that played when you fucked off, one of the most notoriously racist clubs in the country.

And interest in Association Football amongst asians is also very high now (if a bit intermittent), as anyone who lives anywhere near an area with a large asian population could tell you - especially around the last euro's or world cup.

oh, and who are these people who think that 'supporters should reflect the race of the players'?  No one I know of.


you don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> that just show how ignorant you really are then.
> 
> Hardly surprising not many black people wanted to support the Chelsea team that played when you fucked off, one of the most notoriously racist clubs in the country.
> 
> ...




Strangely enough before the rise of the NF/BM elements at Chelsea they did have a notable support amongst West/North-West London's black population.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Thought this old report from 1998 might be of interest:



> *28.01.98 Racism slur*
> 
> Sadly, after I'd posted up the match report, news came through about some of the trouble at Reading, which the tabloids seized on with predictable gusto.
> 
> ...


The retraction was indeed, microscopic, so no doubt some of the mud stuck.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2008)

I think that's the cue for Louis and his Seagulls/ Seig Heil story.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2008)

> urban75 rang up the Guardian and spoke to Nick Mason on the sports desk. He told me that there had been many complaints about the report and apparently Thorpe was not aware of the tradition of calling Swansea players 'Jacks'.



Was sort of football reporter is it that's unaware of this btw?


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I think that's the cue for Louis and his Seagulls/ Seig Heil story.



  ooh, I hope so, missed that one before


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Was sort of football reporter is it that's unaware of this btw?


A fucking shit one. He's been writing football reports for the Guardian for years as well. Perhaps he couldn't resist the temptation to slip in a sensationalistic pop at the Welsh.


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

yeah but unless you're top flight, or a 'big team' dropped down (and even leicester get fuck all coverage now), the guardian doesn't deign to pay any interest to you whatsoever.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> that just show how ignorant you really are then.
> 
> Hardly surprising not many black people wanted to support the Chelsea team that played when you fucked off, one of the most notoriously racist clubs in the country.
> 
> ...


 - funny how people so are aggressive when behind a screen

<ignores belboid>

btw belboid don't bother making an amusing reply to me you are now on ignore like the rest of your twatty lefty mates.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Oct 14, 2008)

You're ignoring everyone who disagrees with you? Lunatic.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> You're ignoring everyone who disagrees with you? Lunatic.



I'm not ignoring you (yet) I'm ignoring everyone who refuses to actually debate but takes up an aggressive insulting position-especially when they exhibit pack mentality.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

So your ignoring anybody who disagrees with you in a way that you dont like?


----------



## glenquagmire (Oct 14, 2008)

Rubbish troll.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I think that's the cue for Louis and his Seagulls/ Seig Heil story.



Perhaps we shouldn't have been raising our right arms in unison as we chanted, that and the funny walk could have caused some confusion.







"It was just like Nuremburg" said a frightened Palace fan.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> So your ignoring anybody who disagrees with you in a way that you dont like?



funnily enough, that's just what old stoic did to me (and several hundred others) as well, you'd think they were related


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

what a way to debate. 

"I don't like the way you are disagreeing with me, so I am only going to listen to people who disagree in a way that agrees with me"


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> - funny how people so are aggressive when behind a screen.


I guess different people see different things, but Belboid's post doesn't read as very aggressive to me.  It contains the word fuck, but not in an especially abusive way.  More as a colourful variant on the verb _to emigrate_.


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

will you stop capitalising my name, you fucking fucker??!!


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

*puts Belboid on ignore*


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 14, 2008)

belboid said:


> will you stop capitalising my name, you fucking fucker??!!


Right.  I'm putting you on ignore for that. You bloody bugger.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 14, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Right.  I'm putting you on ignore for that. You bloody bugger.



Homophobe!


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

But is he being racist?


----------



## Diamond (Oct 14, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Right.  I'm putting you on ignore for that. You bloody bugger.



Haemophobe!!!!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 14, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Homophobe!




_Almost certain_ homophobia, please.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 14, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> But is he being racist?



I'll ask my kids and get back to you.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 14, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> But is he being racist?


I was racist a few pages ago.  I'm bored with racist now.  So I'm picking on poofs.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> btw belboid don't bother making an amusing reply to me you are now on ignore like the rest of your twatty lefty mates.


oooh, now that's a bit aggressive.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

Are you going to put him on ignore?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

you are quite welcome to ignore me . There is no compulsion.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2008)

There's _the dull compulsion of economic relations_ you dolt.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Are you going to put him on ignore?


I don't "do" ignore.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

editor said:


> I don't "do" ignore.



yes -but you have the super powers here.If your potty mouthed chums addressed you in the manner they addressed me you would just ban them.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> yes -but you have the super powers here.If your potty mouthed chums addressed you in the manner they addressed me you would just ban them.


No, I wouldn't actually, so quit your bleating.

In fact, I got called a 'cunt' yesterday and the poster's still here. Get a thicker skin or bugger off if it's all too much for your delicate sensibilities.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> potty mouthed chums



Fuck me it's Lord Snooty....


----------



## tarannau (Oct 14, 2008)

To be fair, Kahul's more like Jimmy Carr with a hand up his arse.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be fair, Kahul's more like Jimmy Carr with a hand up his arse.



A sort of Jimmy Carr meat puppet if you will?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 14, 2008)

editor said:


> No, I wouldn't actually, so quit your bleating.
> 
> In fact, I got called a 'cunt' yesterday and the poster's still here. Get a thicker skin or bugger off if it's all too much for your delicate sensibilities.



I think he needs to be a bit more stoical.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

you might even say more stoical, like the stoics of old.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> you might even say more stoical, like the stoics of old.



And given his age, almost an Old Stoic?!


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

editor said:


> No, I wouldn't actually, so quit your bleating.
> 
> In fact, I got called a 'cunt' yesterday and the poster's still here. Get a thicker skin or bugger off if it's all too much for your delicate sensibilities.



you wouldn't huh ?

yes of course .I belive you - I really do .You really would put up with a constant stream of abuse  and do nothing.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 14, 2008)

*penny drops* (jezeus i'm slow...)


----------



## audiotech (Oct 14, 2008)

I once addressed an SWP meeting to point out that chanting 'come on you whites' had nothing to do with race, but rather it referred to the colour of Leeds United's strip.

Although there was some racism at the ground, the NF had a pitch there for years, it was isolated knob heads mainly.

Albert Johansson, a Leeds player in the 60's and the first black player to play at Wembley in an FA cup final in 1965 was very much welcomed by fans at Elland Rd and a joy to see take on opponents on the right wing.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> yes of course .I belive you


Jolly good, because you'd look awfully stupid if you were to accuse me of making it up.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

editor said:


> Jolly good, because you'd look awfully stupid if you were to accuse me of making it up.



why is that then ?


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

this thread's been the funniest on here in yonks, would be a shame if Comrade Zeno had to disappear for any reason


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

let me guess.

Mr  I don't 'do" ignore and I don't ban people for calling me a cunt WILL ban me if I call him a liar..


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 14, 2008)

Some clubs are pioneers of racial harmony. Very quickly they realised it didn't matter if you were black or white.







As long as you're both. 

Racist twat in action:






 Look at that awful challenge.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> why is that then ?


Because bullshitters always look silly.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

editor said:


> Because bullshitters always look silly.



ah right.

So Bullshit's OK then as a term.

Like I think its "bullshit" that a Guy with a religious upbringing never heard of judas hanging from a tree.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Like I think its "bullshit" that a Guy with a religious upbringing never heard of judas hanging from a tree.


Who's Guy?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

guy

happy now Mr.Pedant


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> guy
> 
> happy now Mr.Pedant


Always happy to see you making an arse of yourself!


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

strictly speaking ,it is possible ,however Unlikely that a person with a religious upbringing might have completely failed to take in the bit of info about Judas so its possible  that you may be telling the truth so I am not 100% certain that you are a liar.

you seem to be 100% certain that the reference "hanging from a tree' is racist though there are two other far more likely origins
and that is utter bullshit.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> strictly speaking ,it is possible ,however Unlikely that a person with a religious upbringing might have completely failed to take in the bit of info about Judas so its possible  that you may be telling the truth so I am not 100% certain that you are a liar.
> 
> you seem to be 100% certain that the reference "hanging from a tree' is racist though there are two other far more likely origins
> and that is utter bullshit.



What are you going to get out of this thread? Are _you_ in the pay of a shadowy oganisation?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> What are you going to get out of this thread? Are _you_ in the pay of a shadowy oganisation?




Obviously,I'm on two and six a word


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> strictly speaking ,it is possible ,however Unlikely that a person with a religious upbringing might have completely failed to take in the bit of info about Judas so its possible  that you may be telling the truth so I am not 100% certain that you are a liar.
> 
> you seem to be 100% certain that the reference "hanging from a tree' is racist though there are two other far more likely origins
> and that is utter bullshit.


Thing is, I don't give a flying fuck what a clown like you thinks about anything, so the joke is - once again - on you, squire.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 14, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> Pointless poster is pointless



Contwoversial 'new' poster is contwoversial.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> strictly speaking ,it is possible ,however Unlikely that a person with a religious upbringing might have completely failed to take in the bit of info about Judas so its possible  that you may be telling the truth so I am not 100% certain that you are a liar.
> 
> you seem to be 100% certain that the reference "hanging from a tree' is racist though there are two other far more likely origins
> and that is utter bullshit.



Only in your strange little deluded mind can you honestly believe that such a slur has 'two more far likely origins.' Add to that it's entirely possible for a phrase to have multiple origins and signifiers.

Utter bullshit's a good way of describing your thought process and logic mind.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Oct 14, 2008)

This is so boring and circular. Why does it bother?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 14, 2008)

He's trying very hard to be controversial, but his funny little closeted mind can't quite keep up with his mouth. Bless - he's like our own little pompous pet furball.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

editor said:


> Thing is, I don't give a flying fuck what a clown like you thinks about anything, so the joke is - once again - on you, squire.




the Joke is on you because you care enough to keep posting  ,over and over again.If you didn't care you would just not bother but you do.Just like all the losers who pack around you .


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Only in your strange little deluded mind can you honestly believe that such a slur has 'two more far likely origins.' Add to that it's entirely possible for a phrase to have multiple origins and signifiers.
> 
> Utter bullshit's a good way of describing your thought process and logic mind.



why do you all bother ?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the Joke is on you because you care enough to keep posting  ,over and over again.If you didn't care you would just not bother but you do.Just like all the losers who pack around you .



Speaking for myself: I am trying to rile you and make you a bit more interesting to play with. I also reckon that you're 3/4 of the way to a ban for the simple 'returning banned poster' reason.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the Joke is on you because you care enough to keep posting  ,over and over again.If you didn't care you would just not bother but you do.Just like all the losers who pack around you .


I rather enjoy watching you floundering about, thanks, and as Britney sang, "That's My Prerogative."


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

so If you are trying to rile me then you win an ignore.

eventually I'll have everyone on ignore then I win a holiday to Barbados

Bye Bye


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 14, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> This is so boring and circular. Why does it bother?



Because the best way to seek attention on urban is to start threads about race.
Two out of four threads started since joining. Not to be sniffed at.

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=7778102


----------



## tarannau (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> why do you all bother ?



In your case, it's childishly satisfying - like poking a slug with stick.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

editor said:


> I rather enjoy watching you floundering about, thanks, and as Britney sang, "That's My Prerogative."




Glad to provide enjoyment .But then I'm not so sad that I had to grow dreadlocks to show how right on I am .


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> so If you are trying to rile me then you win an ignore.
> 
> eventually I'll have everyone on ignore



Save yourself the hassle and just cock off.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

and that makes 9


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Glad to provide enjoyment .But then I'm not so sad that I had to grow dreadlocks to show how right on I am .



ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> and that makes 9



Good. I'm pleased we'll have no further contact.

Improve this position by starting no new threads.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

louis Macniece and dillinger makes 11


----------



## tarannau (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Glad to provide enjoyment .But then I'm not so sad that I had to grow dreadlocks to show how right on I am .



'Right on?' What are you, some kind of superannuated student throwback or something? You're fun.

Still loving your witty sounding username btw, a great little touch for an anti-islam dunderhead like you. Do you wear an ihram and a fake beard for added comedy effect?


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 14, 2008)

Hey Al Kahul. Can I be on your list?

You cockdribbling cuntsock.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

tarannau is going on ignore.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

no you can't jefe


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

El Jefe, prepare to be _ignored_.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 14, 2008)

Um, you're wude. You'll upset our delicate little flower's ears.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 14, 2008)

Would anyone not on ignore like to quote this message for Al please?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dHLjYBsl2zA


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

He used the bad words.


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 14, 2008)

BRING IT ON AL KAHUL, YOU POINTLESS GLOB  OF SYPHILLITIC SPUNK.


(how am i doing?)


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Would anyone not on ignore like to quote this message for Al please?
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dHLjYBsl2zA



But we are all on ignore.


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> no you can't jefe



if it's any help, i'd say it's pretty clear that you are an ignorant, reactionary cunt with the politics of a tennis shoe.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 14, 2008)

Thumbs up from me guv. But I think you should make the pretence of an opinion on the thread's subject, cos that'll make you as entirely genuine as this Kahul dude.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Glad to provide enjoyment .But then I'm not so sad that I had to grow dreadlocks to show how right on I am .


I see that your argument has become so bereft of hope that you're scraping the barrel with cheap personal digs. How desperate!

But seeing as you're bringing my (rather debonaire) personal appearance into the argument, it's only fair and right that you should post up a photo of yourself for similar consideration - or are you too much of a snivelling, hidey-hidey coward for that?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2008)

He looks like a rather flabby ex-boxer whose just totally given up don't you stoic?


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 14, 2008)

I am sure I saw a picture of his sideys/beard, or something. Did I imagine it?


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> He looks like a rather flabby ex-boxer whose just totally given up don't you stoic?


I'm sure he'll be along shortly to counter any suggestion that he's a weasel faced coward only capable of attacking people from behind a comfort-blanket of anonymity by posting up his own photo for me to admire.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)




----------



## Darios (Oct 14, 2008)

You folks have outdone yourselves.

I'll be sure to point people to this thread for the quintessence of Urban 75 politics.

*stands up and applauds*


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 14, 2008)

Darios said:


> You folks have outdone yourselves.
> 
> I'll be sure to point people to this thread for the quintessence of Urban 75 politics.
> 
> *stands up and applauds*



Sarcasm?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

sorry el jefe its just not cutting the mustard


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

Ill be happy to meet you face to face in Brixton next time I'm home .No doubt you'll decline but the offer  is open.


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Ill be happy to meet you face to face in Brixton next time I'm home .No doubt you'll decline but the offer  is open.



me?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

el jefe you just seem too nice and fluffy .Its like my nephew shouting "bum"


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

Darios said:


> You folks have outdone yourselves.
> 
> I'll be sure to point people to this thread for the quintessence of Urban 75 politics.
> 
> *stands up and applauds*



What's your point?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> me?



no 

the editor

he'll decline of course.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Ill be happy to meet you face to face in Brixton next time I'm home .No doubt you'll decline but the offer  is open.



Next time you're in Glasgow let me know.


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> no
> 
> the editor
> 
> he'll decline of course.



I'll meet you instead if you want. You buying?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Ill be happy to meet you face to face in Brixton next time I'm home .No doubt you'll decline but the offer  is open.



Dinner? Dancing? The whole shebang?


----------



## ClassWar (Oct 14, 2008)

perhaps dinner, a pint at the albert and a trip to the cinema and a kiss on the walk home after.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 14, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Ill be happy to meet you face to face in Brixton next time I'm home .No doubt you'll decline but the offer  is open.



You could always PM him your piccie in case you're not his type but don't want to be informed of his tastes publicly?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2008)

you are all racists


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> Next time you're in Glasgow let me know.



haven't been in Glasgow since 1986 but of course Ill be glad to.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> I'll meet you instead if you want. You buying?




hell -why not


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

ClassWar said:


> perhaps dinner, a pint at the albert and a trip to the cinema and a kiss on the walk home after.



super idea Classwar I'm far too old for the dogstar or whatever the atlantic is called these days


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 14, 2008)

cesare said:


> But my point is your raising of the systemic racism issue in sport in the UK, when Canada's record is infinitely worse.



Two things: two wrongs don't make a right. And, I don't agree that the record is worse. 

Also, I haven't denied that there is a problem here.

I thought about this a bit last night, and a couple of things to say. My kid came to me with the thing about the chanting being a common occurrence. We both got suitably outraged, and I made the posts. Based on what I've learned since, she wasn't right that it's now common.

But based on the initial comments on the thread, I did some digging, and learned a bit about something I'd previously known nothing about.

I learned about the legislation in 1991, making racist chanting illegal at football matches. That no doubt is a step in the right direction, but on reflection, it's nothing to be proud of.

Maybe it has to do with my age, but in 1991, I was a professional person in my mid thirties, and to think that if I'd lived in Britain at that time, I might have turned on the tv and seen hundreds or thousands of people making grunting, monkey-like noises, with some throwing bananas onto the pitch, because a black player was there: well, it makes my blood run cold to think of that.

It makes me imagine what it must have been like for people of colour to see that: see their erstwhile neighbors acting like that, showing their true colours. It would be hard to ever feel secure in a place like that. It's preposterous and obscene.

Shit like that used to happen here, more in the US. Back in the days of Jackie Robinson, the guy who broke the 'colour barrier',  things like that went on. But that was in 1945. It didn't die out immediately, but these overt displays were gone by the early sixties.

Similarly, when blacks started playing in the NHL, they would face racist taunts by fans from time to time. One difference, is that it was always scattered individuals doing it, not a concerted effort by the crowd. It's a rarity nowadays.

I think one difference between there and NA, is that there was never a true, organized civil rights movement in the UK. There was no Martin Luther King.  Yes, the govt formed the CRE etc, but that was the white people responding to a perceived problem, not the minorities in question rising up and demanding their rights. 

More on this later, I have to return to something, but in the end, the fact that it took till 1991 to ban racist chanting is something to be ashamed of, not proud of.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 14, 2008)

Who said it's something to be proud of? Are you assuming racist chanting was still "very common" in 1991?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 14, 2008)

Yeah, thing is, JC, you came in on a thread where dozens of people were _objecting_ to someone's attempts to downplay racism in football - on a board with roots in anti-racism-in-football, let's not forget - and basically said "you brits chant racist shit and you don't care". It is not all that surprising therefore that there was some objection.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 14, 2008)

utter nonsense there was no racism here to downplay  and there were not dozens to object just the usual  Nutcases who see race everywhere.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 14, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I think one difference between there and NA, is that there was never a true, organized civil rights movement in the UK. There was no Martin Luther King. Yes, the govt formed the CRE etc, but that was the white people responding to a perceived problem, not the minorities in question rising up and demanding their rights.


Were minorities here discriminated against through law?.


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 14, 2008)

Just got to the end of this of this thread, and apart from JC2 doing his ‘911 party trick’, this Al Kahul guy has seriously cracked me up. 

Keep up the good work, folks.


----------



## belboid (Oct 14, 2008)

it's amazing how someone umpteen thousand miles away knows _exactly_ what was in the mind of people he doesn't know when they created a chant whereas everyone else is totally ignorant, despite having been to more matches this season alone than he has in his entire sad upper-class life.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Oct 15, 2008)

Not only that, he's dead certain about what wasn't in their minds. Quite an accomplishment, really.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Ill be happy to meet you face to face in Brixton next time I'm home .No doubt you'll decline but the offer  is open.


Why on earth would I decline such an offer? I'm always happy to meet fellow posters, regardless of how we get on here.

Or is this 'face to face' stuff your attempt at suggesting that you're some kind of tough guy that I'd be too terrified to meet? In which case LOL++++!

Where's your photo by the way, big man?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 15, 2008)

editor said:


> Or is this 'face to face' stuff your attempt at suggesting that you're some kind of tough guy that I'd be too terrified to meet? In which case LOL++++!
> 
> Where's your photo by the way, big man?



certainly not ! I'm not  one of your posters whose always going on about how they 'beat up'the fash' . I don'tget involved in brawls and I'm far to old for that sort of thing anyway.

the Photo is above posted by fedayn


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 15, 2008)

the moustache and whiskers .

Jimmy edwards fan make of it what you will.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 15, 2008)

JC, while I do think a lot of the points you have posted have merit, especially the lack of black english managers, can I just point out that the lack of asian footballers is nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with the middle class aspirations of most asian families.

Ta.

Out of interest, how many Asian Americans play NFL?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 15, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> utter nonsense there was no racism here to downplay  and there were not dozens to object just the usual  Nutcases who see race everywhere.


Al, first of all your point about "no racism to downplay" has been addressed by many on here, including me, here.  Would you like to respond to any of that?  Or is your mere assertion enough to establish fact?

Secondly, your allegation that it is just the "usual Nutcases" seeing race everywhere is wide of the mark.  There might have been one somewhat like that, but he was pretty much told not to be silly by the majority of participants in the thread.  Most people responding here are very careful about what they call racism, and are furthermore critical of the "race industry" you disdain.  See for example my own post here.

It's up to you: you can respond to these points argued by myself and others, or you can carry on waving your prejudices about "lefties" around without setting your argument out, in which case don't be surprised if people don't take you too seriously, and respond in likewise flippant fashion.  Resulting in your awarding them an Ignore.  (The irony of which seems to escape you).

You make your own luck in that respect.  There are posters on these boards who hold roughly your political/economic stance who are received seriously.  You might want to ponder why that is.


----------



## Jessiedog (Oct 15, 2008)

Right then!


*puts _everyone_ on ignore*




See? You weren't expecting _that_, were you?





I said.......






*See? You weren't expecting that, were you?*











Hello?



















_Hello?_

































_*HELLO?*_






































Woof


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 15, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Silly me, using your own posts to point to you being intolerant and even arguing about the most trivial things. Me bad.



It's pretty fucking low actually. Yet, if I were to do the same thing, you'd be up in arms and don't say that you wouldn't be, because you'd be lying.



> What I really should do is go onto an unrelated thread, say one about Rats on suburban, and have a blatant stupidly pop after one of my posts:



What? Like you did on this one? Don't make me laugh.




> Because we can all believe that you're in the right and that your principles are sound. I love the accusations of hypocrisy jumping about me.
> 
> Poor you Nino. It must be awful being so misunderstood, having no idea why arguments follow you around.



A pure confection. Oh and you're never belligerent? Pull the other one.


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 15, 2008)

I can't see any other way of settling this unless everybody posts up a picture of their nob next to a ruler so we can see who's really got the biggest


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 15, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> I can't see any other way of settling this unless everybody posts up a picture of their nob next to a ruler so we can see who's really got the biggest


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> Who said it's something to be proud of? Are you assuming racist chanting was still "very common" in 1991?



I don't know. All I know is that they passed a law against it in 1991. They must have had some reason to do so.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 15, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Yeah, thing is, JC, you came in on a thread where dozens of people were _objecting_ to someone's attempts to downplay racism in football - on a board with roots in anti-racism-in-football, let's not forget - and basically said "you brits chant racist shit and you don't care". It is not all that surprising therefore that there was some objection.



Fair enough, and as I've stated, I was wrong in the 'chanting is common' statement. But the thread piqued my interest, and I did some digging, and learned a bit about the place of minorities in british football.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't know. All I know is that they passed a law against it in 1991. They must have had some reason to do so.


Just because an offence was made illegal, it doesn't automatically follow that the crime was a common one.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 15, 2008)

sleaterkinney said:


> Were minorities here discriminated against through law?.



Do you really think that that is all that matters?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 15, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Out of interest, how many Asian Americans play NFL?



No clue. But for starters, I'd look at the relative percentage of the population they make up in the US, vs their percentage in Britain.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 15, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> the lack of asian footballers is nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with the middle class aspirations of most asian families.



Is it possible that you're making a bit of a generalization here?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> I can't see any other way of settling this unless everybody posts up a picture of their nob next to a ruler so we can see who's really got the biggest



I have an _enormous_ ruler.


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 15, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have an _enormous_ ruler.


Then I'm afraid you'll experience a similar problem to the one Jeremy Beadle had!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 15, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> Then I'm afraid you'll experience a similar problem to the one Jeremy Beadle had!


Death?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2008)

On the one hand, my ruler is huge. On the other hand...

That was _terrible_, Muriel.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 15, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> I can't see any other way of settling this unless everybody posts up a picture of their nob next to a ruler so we can see who's really got the biggest




But that would be rascist against people without nobs  

Or against people who *did *have a nob but didn't have a ruler


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 15, 2008)

editor said:


> Just because an offence was made illegal, it doesn't automatically follow that the crime was a common one.



Sort of makes you wonder why they bothered, doesn't it?

You were around back then: was this unnecessary legislation?


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 15, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Death?


No! Tiny cock! (Altho on the other hand it wasn't that small)


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 15, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> But that would be rascist against people without nobs


Well if it's the people arguing on this thread they can just take a photo of the one on their head!


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Sort of makes you wonder why they bothered, doesn't it?
> 
> You were around back then: was this unnecessary legislation?


In my experience, apart from a few pockets of Neanderthal fans, racism was already rare on the terraces by 1991 for the vast majority of clubs. 

It certainly wasn't 'common' - in fact I can't think of the last time I heard a full-on racist terrace chant (although there would have been more fuckwit individuals around then).


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 15, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't know. All I know is that they passed a law against it in 1991. They must have had some reason to do so.



The reason was that you are an idiot.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> The reason was that you are an idiot.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

editor said:


> In my experience, apart from a few pockets of Neanderthal fans, racism was already rare on the terraces by 1991 for the vast majority of clubs.
> 
> It certainly wasn't 'common' - in fact I can't think of the last time I heard a full-on racist terrace chant (although there would have been more fuckwit individuals around then).



I guess this legislation was just an example of 'closing the barn door after the horses are out', sort of thing.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I guess this legislation was just an example of 'closing the barn door after the horses are out', sort of thing.


I suspect it was also part of the process of something 'being seen to be done' to football as the game was being made more attractive to corporate sponsors.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I guess this legislation was just an example of 'closing the barn door after the horses are out', sort of thing.



Not completely, as racism still existed within footabll and still does. The point being made is that people do not agree with your claim that it was common.

Things don't have to be commonplace to be addressed by legislation. There had been a history of it, there were still incidents. That was enough to make the laws happen.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2008)

editor said:


> I suspect it was also part of the process of something 'being seen to be done' to football as the game was being made more attractive to corporate sponsors.



Good point.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Not completely, as racism still existed within footabll and still does. The point being made is that people do not agree with your claim that it was common.
> 
> Things don't have to be commonplace to be addressed by legislation. There had been a history of it, there were still incidents. That was enough to make the laws happen.



How old are you? Old enough to remember back to football games in the late 80s?

To your recollection, did such things go on?

On another point, are you a fan? Your family? Do many people of colour that you know, attend live matches?

I'm glad you've decided to post on this thread, and I'll defer to what you have to say about it.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Is it possible that you're making a bit of a generalization here?



Not really.  Most British Asians would agree with it I reckon.

You only have to look at the much higher number of British Asians playing cricket to see that (a much more 'middle class' sport generally speaking), with a number regulars in the England team like Monty Panesar etc.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Not really.  Most British Asians would agree with it I reckon.
> 
> You only have to look at the much higher number of British Asians playing cricket to see that (a much more 'middle class' sport generally speaking), with a number regulars in the England team like Monty Panesar etc.



So british asians are social climbers who eschew football as being too 'common'? Does that about sum it up?


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So british asians are social climbers who eschew football as being too 'common'? Does that about sum it up?


If I moved to America I wouldn't start playing pansy games like baseball or American football, I'd play football. I suspect something similar exists within Asian communities (altho saying that whenever I've been to 5-a-side pitches there have always been plenty of Asian teams playing)


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> If I moved to America I wouldn't start playing pansy games like baseball or American football, I'd play football. I suspect something similar exists within Asian communities (altho saying that whenever I've been to 5-a-side pitches there have always been plenty of Asian teams playing)



Maybe you would. But your kids would go to school with american kids, and they'd play baseball football and basketball, just like everyone else.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

> Racist chanting in the 1970s and 1980s often took the form of members of the crowd making monkey noises at black players on the pitch. Other abuse has been more specific. For example, after the Deptford fire in 1981 when 13 black youths were burnt to death, a chant that could be heard at Millwall was:
> 
> "We all agree
> Niggers burn better than petrol"



http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvracism.html

So things like this 'niggers burn better than petrol, was just a rarity? Did they have to dig deep to come up with this sort of example?


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvracism.html
> 
> So things like this 'niggers burn better than petrol, was just a rarity? Did they have to dig deep to come up with this sort of example?


That's from nearly thirty years ago, and you've picked a club that had one of the worst reputations for racist fans.

No one's saying that racist fans don't exist - you can find racists in all walks of life and football's no exception - but no matter how many snippets you dig up from the past, it won't alter the fact that mass racist chanting is not common at football games in Britain and hasn't been for a long time.

But if you find the topic so fascinating, I suggest you read up on the background in some of these books: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sgoJ17aVhmwC

I'm in a few of them too   (or rather my campaign is).


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

editor said:


> That's from nearly thirty years ago, and you've picked a club that had one of the worst reputations for racist fans.
> 
> No one's saying that racist fans don't exist - you can find racists in all walks of life and football's no exception - but no matter how many snippets you dig up from the past, it won't alter the fact that mass racist chanting is not common at football games in Britain and hasn't been for a long time.
> 
> I'm in a few of them too   (or rather my campaign is).



When I look these things up, I don't know shit from shinola in terms of the makeup of the fan base etc of the teams. But it's interesting that when I mention the famine song, the response is, 'those Rangers fans are just a bunch of wankers'. Now with this Milwall business, the team involved 'had a bad rep for racism'. Are there many other clubs that would fall into this category, or have I just happened to stumble onto the two bad ones?

I've already agreed that this mass chanting doesn't appear to be a common thing anymore.

What campaign?


----------



## Hi-ASL (Oct 16, 2008)

A large portion of the blame must fall on the '70s and the '80s. They've so far escaped criticism.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvracism.html
> 
> So things like this 'niggers burn better than petrol, was just a rarity? Did they have to dig deep to come up with this sort of example?



the Deptford fire massacre was an interesting case. For some time after it happened it was a cause celebre for "antiracists" until the real cause was a rival gang and not racist at all  .


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the Deptford fire massacre was an interesting case. For some time after it happened it was a cause celebre for "antiracists" until the real cause was a rival gang and not racist at all  .



There have been two inquests into this, both returning an open verdict. It has been a matter of considerable upset for families and friends that the cause was never formally identified and no suspect ever charged together severe criticism of how the police handled the investigation at the time. There are some of us who believe that it was a racist attack (and bearing in mind the backdrop of the racial tension/ National Front activities/anti NF feeling in the area at the time, a plausible theory) and there are some that believe that a disgruntled party guest was responsible. I've not heard that it was a rival gang - where did you get this theory from?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the Deptford fire massacre was an interesting case. For some time after it happened it was a cause celebre for "antiracists" until the real cause was a rival gang and not racist at all  .



Still sounds like these Deptford fans sang some song about niggers burning better than petrol, no matter what the causes of the fire.


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny, I wasn't being deliberately rude in not replying to your long post to me earlier - I was busy and Fridgie had pretty much summed up what I felt shortly afterwards.

However, you've now raised the spectre of the Deptford/New Cross Fire, and Millwall fans. If you are as interested as you appear - try googling "millwall, national front, racism" for an insight. 

We're talking about the late 70s/early 80's here - to put it in chronological context. But in 1977 I was a school kid, and that was my manor (as we say round 'ere  ). For some time there had been increasing tension as the National Front garnered support amongst some and were vehemently opposed by others. It all culminated in what's known as the Battle Of Lewisham in 1977. Here's the wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lewisham Giving you the wiki link as opposed to various anti-fascist ones, because otherwise some of our far right posters will immediately pop up to say that I'm not giving a balanced view.

Anyway ... that was a mad Saturday, but worth it, lying to my folks to get there and spending half the time angry/furious and the other half terrified 

So that's one component, the backdrop of racial tension culminating in riot/demonstration and finally seeing off the National Front bastards who had been fucking plaguing the place together with utilising football competitiveness in their tactics.

That's the second component. Going back decades, it's always been Charlton Athletic fans v Millwall fans. Time was that you'd avoid going anywhere near Charlton's ground (near Lewisham) anytime that Charlton were playing at home to Millwall. Running battles between the fans on the streets around, so anyone with an ounce of sense avoided the area. There was the football competitiveness but also with the racial thing built in. I'm not saying that all Millwall fans were racist, but that's certainly how it felt at the time. And the NF certainly played on that, galvanising youngsters into anti black action by way of football.

The Deptford Fire was an example of what some of us believed to have been a racist attack, translated into racist football fans' taunts reinforcing that belief. Who knows, maybe the fire was caused by one of the party guests as the second inquest just a few years ago implied. I doubt we'll ever get to the bottom of it. But, it was *30 years ago* maaaan. Things have changed since then. Hugely changed for the better. 

Much of that change has been a result of the football fans themselves. Yeah, there's been a bit of minor legislation that seemed like retrospective lip service to appease the corporates - football's big business nowadays innit, especially on the international front? But the real change has been down to the fans losing patience with it all, and the prospect of club management losing money from lack of bums on seats. 

That's my take on the Millwall example you found. Can't comment on the Celtic v Rangers famine song really, except that the sectarianism there incorporates religion too. 

Incidentally, I found this article that you might be interested in. http://elt.britcoun.org.pl/elt/s_ethnic.htm It's what the British Council tout abroad as insight into British ethnicity and sport. There's a whole raft of issues about the British Council, but in any event, it's an interesting article and seems fairly even handed although there are aspects that people will take issue with, as with anything.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> http://www.sirc.org/publik/fvracism.html
> 
> So things like this 'niggers burn better than petrol, was just a rarity? Did they have to dig deep to come up with this sort of example?



Millwank are well known amongst the rest of the footballing fraternity to be scum, though


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> When I look these things up, I don't know shit from shinola in terms of the makeup of the fan base etc of the teams. But it's interesting that when I mention the famine song, the response is, 'those Rangers fans are just a bunch of wankers'. Now with this Milwall business, the team involved 'had a bad rep for racism'. Are there many other clubs that would fall into this category, or have I just happened to stumble onto the two bad ones?
> 
> I've already agreed that this mass chanting doesn't appear to be a common thing anymore.
> 
> What campaign?



You google for racism in football and come up with Rangers and Millwall...well done. You do realise what you are doing when you use a search engine; one thing you are not doing is achieving a representative sample.

Louis - MacNeice


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You google for racism in football and come up with Rangers and Millwall...well done. You do realise what you are doing when you use a search engine; one thing you are not doing is achieving a representative sample.


Spot on. 



cesare said:


> We're talking about the late 70s/early 80's here - to put it in chronological context. But in 1977 I was a school kid, and that was my manor (as we say round 'ere  ). For some time there had been increasing tension as the National Front garnered support amongst some and were vehemently opposed by others. It all culminated in what's known as the Battle Of Lewisham in 1977. Here's the wiki link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lewisham Giving you the wiki link as opposed to various anti-fascist ones, because otherwise some of our far right posters will immediately pop up to say that I'm not giving a balanced view.


Indeed. And at the time the Rock Against Racism movement was gathering huge momentum.

Around the time Britain's economy was fucked, the country in a mess and we were at the end of a unprecedented period of immigration - and, as often is the case, no jobs+economic downturn+growing resentment=rise of racism. It was unpleasant times.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 16, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the Deptford fire massacre was an interesting case. For some time after it happened it was a cause celebre for "antiracists" until the real cause was a rival gang and not racist at all  .



Thats rubbish. It was never 'clear' at all, there was no agreed 'real cause' just coppers covering up negligence. 

What was clear was a failure by the police to properly investigate. it was a 'cause celebre' for black people in britain rather than any 'anti-racists' - a turning point. When 13 people die and there is no interest or worse - and resulting cover-up of police incompetence - people finally had had enough of turning the over cheek and relying upon any pretence of state neutrality. They organised themselves and their communities to defend themselves given on-one else seemed interested. Anti-racists supported that. It changed outlooks. Plenty more and effective self-defense followed in the wake of the New Cross events.

One of the resulting outcomes was the attempt to incorporate the anger those movements represented and neutralise them by the new approach of state-multicultism - the sort of thing you resent so much. Except you probably tend to blame the wrong 'cause' of that version of 'multiculturalism' - and try to smear genuine anti-racism and its real value in changing the way our society views itself with the cardboard cutout version - as usual.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> the Deptford fire massacre was an interesting case. For some time after it happened it was a cause celebre for "antiracists" until the real cause was a rival gang and not racist at all  .


That appears to be a bit of a revealing spin you're putting on events there.


----------



## Athos (Oct 16, 2008)

I thought there was a suggestion that it may have been a disgruntled former guest, rather than a gang.  What made you say "gang"?  Is that a telling insight into your perception of the dynamics of a black community?

Anway, I think it was more than likely NF scum, myself.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 16, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Not really.  Most British Asians would agree with it I reckon.
> 
> You only have to look at the much higher number of British Asians playing cricket to see that (a much more 'middle class' sport generally speaking), with a number regulars in the England team like Monty Panesar etc.



I agree to an extent. I would not say racism is not a factor. Cricket is an unfair comparison in some sense due to it being the national or cultural sport for many Asians and British Asians.

My parents actively discouraged me from playing any sport whatsoever. They didn't even want me playing in the school rugby team as they deemed it a distraction from my studies. 
I think many have similar experiences so it's not necessarily anything to do with a preference for The Middle Class sport.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> How old are you? Old enough to remember back to football games in the late 80s?
> 
> To your recollection, did such things go on?


 Yes I'm old enough to remember. I remember hearing about incidents, I can't say it was 'common' though. Black people were still experiencing racism in many areas of society, I think I personally accepted racism in football, I didn't focus on it probably because I wasn't that into it myself.

I also worked at various football grounds in the food and drink bars and as a steward in the late 80's and early 90's.

I didn't see any racism whilst working in the food/drink bars, people came to buy a beer and a burger and then they'd go back to watch the game.

As a steward though, I worked at Millwall, Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspurs. By far my worst experiences were at Millwall, unsurprisingly.

Being a black female, when I worked at The Den, my supervisors used to always put me in the family enclosure. I never questioned it, I knew why. 

I remember loads of stuff that went on there.  People sitting there with 3-4 yound kids and jumping up to shout 'Get hold of that nigger' anytime a black player from the opposing team had possession of the ball. 

The worst thing about this for me though was that they had young children around, the kids would imitate their parents, shouting stuff like 'Black bastard' etc. Of course no-one in the crowd said anything, and I can only remember one time that after I reported the behaviour of one particular family, sercurity went over to have a word with them. You can imagine the looks I got after that, they knew it was me who had reported them.

I also remember bananas being thrown onto the pitch, and fans making monkey noises, this happened at both Millwall and Chelsea. Needless to say I got more fussy about the clubs I agreed to work at.



> On another point, are you a fan? Your family? Do many people of colour that you know, attend live matches?



I was never a fan Johnny although my older brothers and relatives were. I'd have to ask them about their experiences though as they were the ones who went to matches not me.

I do remember though that at certain points they stopped going, or there were certain clubs they wouldn't go to because of the pre-match/post-match violence but that was between rival supporters and not as I remember aimed at them.

As I said i'd need to ask them.


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Maybe you would. But your kids would go to school with american kids, and they'd play baseball football and basketball, just like everyone else.


No they fucking wouldn't! 

Not unless they wanted to feel the back of my hand!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> No they fucking wouldn't!
> 
> Not unless they wanted _*to feel the back of my hand*_!



 You are my Mum and I claim my five pounds!


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What campaign?


This one: http://www.urban75.org/football/campaign.html


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2008)

> Around the time Britain's economy was fucked, the country in a mess and we were at the end of a unprecedented period of immigration - and, as often is the case, no jobs+economic downturn+growing resentment=rise of racism. It was unpleasant times.
> Reply With Quote





That sounds a bit like it may be going now, didyou mean that to be emphasised?


----------



## Jessiedog (Oct 16, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> The worst thing about this for me though was that they had young children around, the kids would imitate their parents, shouting stuff like 'Black bastard' etc. Of course no-one in the crowd said anything, and I can only remember one time that after I reported the behaviour of one particular family, sercurity went over to have a word with them. You can imagine the looks I got after that, they knew it was me who had reported them.



Oh god.




I don't follow football anymore, though I was once a fanatic player (county level,) and supporter.

I last went to a football match in about 1974. It was _that_ Tottenham vs. Chelsea match - the end of season decider as to which would be relegated.

I heard it was on the 10:00pm evening news that night - not one of football's (nor London's) finest moments.

I don't remember that much, I was a young teen and naive as is, but it was a bloodbath, I was battered and terrified and hid for hours - didn't get home on the tube and walking until after 11:00pm.

It was one of the defining moments in my life - the _certainty_, after a decade of hope, that _man_kind needs a careful eye kept upon it.


Never played again, nor took much interest in the game.


I grew up that day.


*shivers*






Woof


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2008)

Jessiedog, I went to that match too I think. When the fans invaded the pitch at the end? I was in the bloody Shed as well


----------



## Jessiedog (Oct 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Jessiedog, I went to that match too I think. When the fans invaded the pitch at the end? I was in the bloody Shed as well



Shed?

Me too.

Clinging to the chain link fencing, to save being swept away, with feet off the ground as the wave of nutters surged passed to batter the 50 or so Birmingham fans that had infiltrated and set up a chant.

And I was supporting The Spurs.



(Don't ask, I was young, naive and only there 'cos me big, tough Chelsea-supporting mate thought it would be "a laugh"  )

Wave after wave of skinheads rushing the turnstiles - hundreds. The cops not withholding but flailing in with batons and fists as they came over - they lost, badly. The cops failed London that day.

Hordes roaming the streets for hours afterwards, hunting in packs, battering all and sundry.


It coloured my understanding of life and shaped my responses - the intensity of the violence, rage and insanity is something I have pretty much _obsessively_ tried to avoid (with increasing success over the decades,) since.



Nite peeps!


Oh, and "Chinky", in the UK, is a racist term. Usage to denote a restaurant is the last vestige of acceptibility, _still_ used by some. I doubt for much longer.



Oh, and double oh, remember peeps.....


Be nice to each other.

Blessings all.





Woof


----------



## cesare (Oct 16, 2008)

It was the first football match I ever went to, and I only went to a couple more (quiet and safe) ones after that! It sounds like the same match. I was luckier than you tbh, and never felt in any particular danger cos the two dads that took us pushed us out to the exit as soon as it all started going pearshaped. Scary though.

eta: yep, re the streets afterwards. Again luckily the dads were locals and knew the backdoubles so we avoided most of it, and anyway it was pretty obvious it was just a couple of nondescript teenage lasses with dad protectors so we weren't really a target.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You google for racism in football and come up with Rangers and Millwall...well done. You do realise what you are doing when you use a search engine; one thing you are not doing is achieving a representative sample.
> 
> Louis - MacNeice



Thanks for your words of wisdom. My take on all this, google representative sample or not, is that your country has had, and has a problem with racism that isn't of that old a vintage, and that still hasn't been properly addressed.

I didn't even do any googling before I wrote that down.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You google for racism in football and come up with Rangers and Millwall...well done. You do realise what you are doing when you use a search engine; one thing you are not doing is achieving a representative sample.
> 
> Louis - MacNeice



Example: there's another thread where, for hundreds of posts, people have  been debating whether or not the term 'chinky', for a chinese restaurant, is racist or not.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> , I think I personally accepted racism in football, .



I don't understand what that means.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Being a black female, when I worked at The Den, my supervisors used to always put me in the family enclosure. I never questioned it, I knew why.
> 
> I remember loads of stuff that went on there.  People sitting there with 3-4 yound kids and jumping up to shout 'Get hold of that nigger' anytime a black player from the opposing team had possession of the ball.
> 
> ...




This makes me feel like throwing up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2008)

You don't hear racist chants at footie now. There is cctv, and if you do it, you will not only be thrown out but prosecuted, and people know this. As John Barnes said, though, there are still plenty of racists at football matches, they just keep quiet. 

In a way, this is a kind of mass experiment in crude cognitive behavioural therapy. Behaviour is forcibly modified, and this provides the 'cure'. I think it works in a limited way.

Rutita's description sounds really shocking now, and yet it was less than 20 years ago. 

Re: Millwall. They now have a membership scheme, and every supporter has to register with the police. When they introduced it, their attendance went down by about a third. So there, at least, the nastiest contingent has largely gone. 

As Jessiedog said, though, the human capacity for vicious stupidity can be very great.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> This makes me feel like throwing up.


But, again, it was a relatively rare occurrence even then. Some teams had horrendous problems with racist fans but a lot didn't, although the 70s were horribly intolerant times.

But none of this alters the facts that racism is not 'common' at UK football games now and hasn't  been for a long time.

It's so rare that I can even tell you the last time I heard anything approaching a racist chant and that was in 1992 when I heard three boneheads at a Cardiff game. 

It was such a rare occurrence - despite endless negative media commentaries on football fans in general at the time that would make some people think we were like animals - that I was prompted to crate an anti racist comic that became a big seller.

The three lunkheads were merged into the main character, '70s Man' who became an object of ridicule in every strip. 

The comic carried links to anti racist organisations and despite me selling it on the open terraces - and one of the nationals claiming that was a major racist problem at Cardiff - I never had any hassle at all.

Forigve the large image, but here's a strip I redrew for the Football Supporters Association and the Campaign for Racial Equality in 95.









http://www.urban75.org/comics/index.html


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't understand what that means.



I accepted it because it was simply another area of society that racism manifested itself. I accepted racism because it was there, there was no point in denying it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> But, again, it was a relatively rare occurrence even then. Some teams had horrendous problems with racist fans but a lot didn't, although the 70s were horribly intolerant times.]



It's about more than soccer. Rutita went through that, not that long ago. It's disgusting.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rutita's description sounds really shocking now, and yet it was less than 20 years ago.



It wasn't that surprising though, I was always posted in the family enclosure at Millwall and Chelsea because those clubs had a reputation and the company I worked for did that as a precautionary measure as they thought it would be safer. Not just because I am Black, but because I am female also. Stuff was less likely to kick off.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Let's all say it's disgusting


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> But, again, it was a relatively rare occurrence even then. Some teams had horrendous problems with racist fans but a lot didn't, although the 70s were horribly intolerant times.
> 
> But none of this alters the facts that racism is not 'common' at UK football games now and hasn't  been for a long time.
> 
> ...




If you go to the American South, you won't find white people calling black people niggers much anymore. Not to their faces, anyway.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's about more than soccer. Rutita went through that, not that long ago. It's disgusting.



All it shows though Johnny that racism was still about, just as it is now. It doesn't however prove that racism was 'common' in football at that time, which I think is what is being argued about here.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's about more than soccer. Rutita went through that, not that long ago. It's disgusting.


Yes. And that's why decent supporters like me did our bit to make sure that this unpleasant *minority* were booted out of stadiums.

It was also pretty disgusting for a lot of decent fans at the time too. Randomly throwing darts into away supporters became the 'in thing' for a while, and mass brawls, violent attacks and pitch invasions were hardly rare sights either.

I dare say there was a lot more racism in your area in the 1970s too.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If you go to the American South, you won't find white people calling black people niggers much anymore. Not to their faces, anyway.


Is there a point to this? The whole point of the character is that _he's from the 70s_ and acts like it's the 70s. That's why he's called _70s Man_.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 17, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> It wasn't that surprising though, I was always posted in the family enclosure at Millwall and Chelsea because those clubs had a reputation and the company I worked for did that as a precautionary measure as they thought it would be safer. Not just because I am Black, but because I am female also. Stuff was less likely to kick off.


I wasn't surprised by that bit. It is understandable. Sensible, even.

I wasn't surprised by any of it. But it is easy to forget what a short time ago it was.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Yes. And that's why decent supporters like me did our bit to make sure that this unpleasant *minority* were booted out of stadiums.
> 
> It was also pretty disgusting for a lot of decent fans at the time too. Randomly throwing darts into away supporters became the 'in thing' for a while, and mass brawls, violent attacks and pitch invasions were hardly rare sights either.
> 
> I dare say there was a lot more racism in your area in the 1970s too.



The sea change in racist displays came in the Sixties, following the Civil Rights movement. It affected the treatment of all minorities, not just blacks.

I as a black man, have never experienced anything remotely similar to the things described on this thread. That includes the US: I began travelling in the US, in 1974. I spent relatively longer periods of time there, staying with friends, on occasion.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I wasn't surprised by that bit. It is understandable. Sensible, even.
> 
> I wasn't surprised by any of it. But it is easy to forget what a short time ago it was.


Millwall's still got a few problems, but the club has made huge strides to put its house in order.


> Millwall used to have one of the worst reputations for racist fans but the club has developed excellent relations with local communities, particularly the Asian Khalsa Football Federation, which aims to get Asians involved with the game.
> 
> Until recently, a representative team from the Khalsa played Millwall each year to showcase young and talented Asian players. The club has also helped produce a history of its players, from the Egyptian Hussein Hegazi in 1912-13 to black 1980s star John Fashanu, along with current youth team players with origins in Greece, Ghana and the Congo.
> http://www.icons.org.uk/theicons/collection/fa-cup/features/football-in-the-community


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I as a black man, have never experienced anything remotely similar to the things described on this thread. That includes the US: I began travelling in the US, in 1974.


You're telling me there weren't any major problems with racism in the States in the 70s?!!!

As people keep telling you: racism is extraordinarily rare at British football games now and has been for a considerable time.

Why you keep referring back to the tiny handful of clubs that had persistent problems is anyone's guess, but it won't stop your earlier assertion that racism is 'common' at British grounds remaining _woefully_ inaccurate.

It is not common. It is very rare.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

I find the things Rutita said, to be quite depressing. I know that the few brushes with racism that I've endured, left me mortified and humiliated, and those were random situations involving individuals. I can't conceive of the assault on one's sense of dignity, of self worth, to undergo that type of public display.

As for how things were in the Seventies, even the Ku Klux Klan was being put on the run by then, and they were pretty much the group that one might have found throwing bananas at black people. Even by the Seventies, had they tried a stunt like that, they would have found themselves on the losing end of a very angry crowd.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> You're telling me there weren't any major problems with racism in the States in the 70s?!!!.



I don't recall saying that. There are still major problems with racism in the US. Lots of people there harbour foul, ignorant thoughts. But it's like owning a pit bull. Even by the Seventies, the pit bull pretty much had a muzzle on when in public, no matter how much it was slavering behind the leather stays.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> You're telling me there weren't any major problems with racism in the States in the 70s?!!!
> 
> As people keep telling you: racism is extraordinarily rare at British football games now and has been for a considerable time.
> 
> ...




That's great.

I think that you could take a lesson from the United States, when it comes to making efforts toward putting your house in order concerning matters of race.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I think that you could take a lesson from the United States, when it comes to making efforts toward putting your house in order concerning matters of race.


Can we really?



> *US Race Riots*
> 
> 
> 1980: Miami Riots
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's great.
> 
> I think that you could take a lesson from the United States, when it comes to making efforts toward putting your house in order concerning matters of race.



What lesson(s) then?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2008)

Rutita1 and cesare make some really good points and to add. I was a steward at football ground during the early seventies, before that on the tea-bars. 

I didn't hear, or see that much overt racism either and the point I mentioned earlier on this thread, with regards to Albert Johansson, one of the first black players in English football, only illustrates this.

It all started getting nasty later - mid to late 70's. There had always been rivalry between the different football fans, then, far-right politics moved in to recruit from and influence these rival groups and use these lads for their own ends and it is then it became increasingly violent, with racist overtones.

In my time it was the NF who were the irritants, who used to sell their wares, papers and badges and then not even go and watch the match at the ground they'd come to sell their divisive shit, or watch the team there. They would do their crap, find the nearest pub, get pissed and make complete arseholes of themselves.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Rutita1 and cesare make some really good points and to add. I was a steward at football ground during the early seventies, before that on the tea-bars.
> 
> I didn't hear, or see that much overt racism either and the point I mentioned earlier on this thread, with regards to Albert Johansson, one of the first black players in English football, only illustrates this.



...and what happend to AJ? Drank himself to death on cider in a tower block cut off from any contact with the club (little effort on their part) or family. OT point i know, but still...


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> ...and what happend to AJ? Drank himself to death on cider in a tower block cut off from any contact with the club (little effort on their part) or family. OT point i know, but still...


 
You're right and it's a good point. I last saw AJ driving a flat truck on a community programme scheme in the late 80's.

Peter "hotshot" Lorimer has said in the past that the players had rallied round to give him support? AJ was from apartheid South Africa, which I can only summise how being brought up in a regime such as that would have affected him? I assume some of his family still lived there at the time?

I also remember seeing, another player from that era, Bobby Collins, Scottish, working in a garage.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Can we really?



Do you know what race riots are? They are black people not taking it anymore. Civil rights in the US are improved today, as a result of black people not taking it anymore.

If you wait to be handed rights, you'll wait too long to receive too little.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What lesson(s) then?



The ignorance displayed in this comment is so huge, that I wouldn't have the remotest idea as to where to begin.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The ignorance displayed in this comment is so huge, that I wouldn't have the remotest idea as to where to begin.



Wave bye bye, there's your point gently floating away then. Shit or get off the pot like.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

_I'm not telling you_


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Wave bye bye, there's your point gently floating away then. Shit or get off the pot like.



I'm not in a mood to engage in one of your obtuse wallows.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

It's not obtuse. It's pretty direct. You say something, you're asked what that means and you run away. _Shit or get off the pot._


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It's not obtuse. It's pretty direct. You say something, you're asked what that means and you run away. _Shit or get off the pot._



Actually, maybe it isn't you who could take a page from the US book. It's your black population who could.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Again, what is this page?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Again, what is this page?



"Don't sit around waiting for self-satisfied white people to do you any favours."


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## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks, i won't. That's a mighty deep lesson you've taught us all there johnny. Thanks for bringing it to these shores.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks, i won't. That's a mighty deep lesson you've taught us all there johnny. Thanks for bringing it to these shores.



Are you black now, too?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

Bob Marley already brought a message to your shores.


Of good over evil -
Good over evil, yeah!
Good over evil -
Good over evil, yeah!
Good over evil -
Good over evil, yeah! /fadeout/

<ed: lyrics removed>


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

No Johnny, i'm not black 'now, too' (as well as what?). But good advice is good advice eh? The originality of it i'm impressed by, it's almost imperial in its grandeur. Because no one over here ever thought like that before and no one over here ever acted on that thought before. Frankly the ignorance displayed in this comment is so huge, that I wouldn't have the remotest idea as to where to begin.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> No Johnny, i'm not black 'now, too' (as well as what?). But good advice is good advice eh? The originality of it i'm impressed by, it's almost imperial in its grandeur. Because no one over here ever thought like that before and no one over here ever acted on that thought before. Frankly the ignorance displayed in this comment is so huge, that I wouldn't have the remotest idea as to where to begin.



I don't care.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

But you should care very much about your ignorance of the history of black people in the UK and their struggles when you're lecturing them and wagging you finger and pointing your shears in their chest Johnny.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> But you should care very much about your ignorance of the history of black people in the UK and their struggles when you're lecturing them and wagging you finger and pointing your shears in their chest Johnny.



I know that about 25 years ago, people were throwing bananas at them on soccer pitches.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

That's not very much though.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Bob Marley already brought a message to your shores.


FFS Johnny. No lyrics in the political forums please.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> FFS Johnny. No lyrics in the political forums please.



Not even if it has a relevant message. How could  I forget?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> That's not very much though.



You aren't the one the bananas were directed at.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Do you honestly think by saying 'That's not very much though.' i meant that this behaviour is acceptable? Or was i responding to your claim to know enough of the history of black british people and their struggles to have the authority to wag your finger at them?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Do you honestly think by saying 'That's not very much though.' i meant that this behaviour is acceptable? Or was i responding to your claim to know enough of the history of black british people and their struggles to have the authority to wag your finger at them?



I know how much the foundation of many of your institutions has a connection to slavery.

I know how many black people are in govt, high corporate position, etc.

I know that in five hundred posts, it can't be determined if 'chinky' is racist in the UK.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

That's not very much knowledge then.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> That's not very much knowledge then.



What exactly is it that you're defending here?


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You aren't the one the bananas were directed at.


Do you think that British football stadia were awash with great mountains of flying bananas every weekend or something, Johnny?

Still, bananas from moronic fans from three decades ago has got to be better than bullets and beatings from racist cops today.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What exactly is it that you're defending here?



I'm not defending anything (apart from racism of course) - though i applaud the new approach, try and catch me -  i'm responding to your posts - your posts on this thread.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Do you think that British football stadia were awash with great mountains of flying bananas every weekend or something, Johnny?
> 
> Still, bananas from moronic fans from three decades ago has got to be better than bullets and beatings from racist cops today.



If you think everything is fine in your country regarding race relations, then bully for you.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If you think everything is fine in your country regarding race relations, then bully to you.


Try as I might, I can't find those words in my post, or anything like them.


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## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

You're just not even bothering to read anything anymore are you JC2?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Try as I might, I can't find those words in my post, or anything like them.



You've downplayed or belittled every example of racism brought up so far. It's easy to take the expansive view, I suppose, when one is a member of the right group.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You've downplayed or belittled every example of racism brought up so far. It's easy to take the expansive view, I suppose, when one is a member of the right group.


since when were dreadlocked welsh hippies the 'right group'?


eta nay offense like


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You've downplayed or belittled every example of racism brought up so far. It's easy to take the expansive view, I suppose, when one is a member of the right group.


I took it seriously enough to put my neck on the line and write, publish and personally sell a fanzine with a strong anti racist message on the football terraces. 

The only 'downplaying' going on here is your bizarre refusal to accept the highly informed opinions of people who know about football in preference to your clueless mate who insists that racism is "common" on the terraces.

Its not.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

free spirit said:


> since when were dreadlocked welsh hippies the 'right group'?


If he knew anything about football culture, he'd have known that someone like me would have stood out like a sore thumb at footie games in the early 90s.

I'm not a hippy, by the way. Never, ever have been one. Just for the record, like.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> If he knew anything about football culture, he'd have known that someone like me would have stood out like a sore thumb at footie games in the early 90s.
> 
> *I'm not a hippy*, by the way. Never, ever have been one. Just for the record, like.


yeah I know, couldn't resist sticking that bit in though... bet you've still had your share of stick for being a hippy over the years, whether your are or not...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

How hard is to explain football culture to someone like JC2? It's utterly impossible isn't it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> I took it seriously enough to put my neck on the line and write, publish and personally sell a fanzine with a strong anti racist message on the football terraces.



Just out of interest Ed, which clubs did you frequent?

At which ones did you sell that fanzine?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

free spirit said:


> since when were dreadlocked welsh hippies the 'right group'?
> 
> 
> )



Welsh were white last time I looked.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> I took it seriously enough to put my neck on the line and write, publish and personally sell a fanzine with a strong anti racist message on the football terraces.
> 
> The only 'downplaying' going on here is your bizarre refusal to accept the highly informed opinions of people who know about football in preference to your clueless mate who insists that racism is "common" on the terraces.
> 
> Its not.



You can't or don't read.

The issue of 'common', is dead. I admitted as much long ago. We're onto something new, now.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

And what mate?

It was a discussion with my eldest daughter.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> How hard is to explain football culture to someone like JC2? It's utterly impossible isn't it?








"Ain' that right, Boss?"


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> I took it seriously enough to *put my neck on the line *and write, publish and personally sell a fanzine with a strong anti racist message on the football terraces. .



If racism was such a rarity on the terraces, as you contend, exactly how was it that you were 'putting your neck on the line' by speaking out against it?


----------



## _float_ (Oct 17, 2008)

Can we try using a points system to settle this argument?

If 0 = no racism whatsoever and 10 = nuremburg rally, would anyone like to give an average score for racism in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s ?

JC2 can give a comparative score for Canadian Hockey games over the same period.

Just an idea, since this thread seems to be going round in massive circles.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

_float_ said:


> Can we try using a points system to settle this argument?
> 
> If 0 = no racism whatsoever and 10 = nuremburg rally, would anyone like to give an average score for racism in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s ?
> 
> ...



In the NHL, it's squid get thrown onto the ice.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 17, 2008)

Johhy Cannuck

what on earth is your justification for calling the editor a member of a 'right' group?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What lesson(s) then?



That we have started trying to do something about it in far too short a time.  After all, the USA was founded in 1783, and still had segregation in the 50s, some 170 years later.

The UK has only been multiracial to any great extent at all since the 50s.  It's hardly surprising that there have been some problems.

It's still one of the most successful in this regard in Europe, though, whatever Johnny might say.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I know that in five hundred posts, it can't be determined if 'chinky' is racist in the UK.



Then again, 'raghead' appears to be perfectly acceptable in the USA.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I know how much the foundation of many of your institutions has a connection to slavery.



So do those of the USA.



> I know how many black people are in govt, high corporate position, etc.



But the number of minorities in parliament has increased over the years, and will probably continue to do so.  There is a growing black middle class, too. 

One thing I will say is that our class system does combine with these issues in so many ways.  Is it any easier for a white kid from an estate to get rich than a black kid from an estate?  I'm not at all convinced.



> I know that in five hundred posts, it can't be determined if 'chinky' is racist in the UK.



And I know that many Americans will say they are anti-racist yet happily throw around all kinds of racist terminology about Arabs.


----------



## ClassWar (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> One thing I will say is that our class system does combine with these issues in so many ways.  Is it any easier for a white kid from an estate to get rich than a black kid from an estate?  I'm not at all convinced.


have you any evidence to suggest that that's the aim of all people on estates. and i mean proper evidence, not some wank you heard down the albert.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

ClassWar said:


> have you any evidence to suggest that that's the aim of all people on estates. and i mean proper evidence, not some wank you heard down the albert.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

And by the way Johnny (and I know the Chinese experience is going to be different from the black one) my wife hasn't complained about any racism at all.  We're in Newcastle which is a mostly white city (and thus the sort of place you might expect racist attitudes to possibly be a bit more prevalent) and all she's said is how polite people are generally, and how helpful people are if she's been lost or something.  Not about what vicious marauding racists we are.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> One thing I will say is that our class system does combine with these issues in so many ways.



I think that if Johnny had any real lessons to 'advise' folk on this side of the pond - then one would be on the history of how black and progressive white people have changed the situation. There are differences and similarities in the forms that has taken. Although in my view the differing approach taken in the UK could hold a lot more lessons for US workers - black and white -  than visa versa.

In britain you could probably argue that, historically, black people were more likely to work through and see the trade unions as a a large part of how they were going to improve their lot. Race and class are closely linked - and finding common solidarity with folk who are actually in a similar position to yourselves - whatever their initial views towards you has been a significent factor in the difference between the resulting levels of 'integration' and crossover of different groups of people. Chasnging ones own situation through the process of struggling for equal treatment through the act of working with ours.

In the US it has been much more convoluted - although again trade union organisation has played a much bigger role than you will find written about in books that see things purely in terms of 'race' ('Organised Labor and the Black Worker 1619-1981' by Foner is a recommended read). I suppose that reflects the cleverly introduced divisions pushed throughout modern US history - the playing off of one group of people against another reinforcing the results of the shear scale of the place and its various 'peoples' (from 'gangs of new york' and slavery to today). The resulting identification with one group to a much greater extent than in the UK for instance.

Just a suggestion - I think I could argue it in detail if you want me to.

I would also argue there is unlikely to be any development of a black middle class - beyond a few functionaries - in the UK, simply because of questions of scale and lack of homoginity


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> How hard is to explain football culture to someone like JC2? It's utterly impossible isn't it?



It's difficult explaining _anything_ to an idiot.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> "Ain' that right, Boss?"



That's exactly right, it's hard because i view you as slave. And a house slave at that, not one of them fesity field slaves either.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Just out of interest Ed, which clubs did you frequent?


I sold it on the terraces of Cardiff City - which for part of the time at least one national was claiming was a hotbed of C18 activity.

I sold it to home and away fans before the game and never ever got any hassle because of the anti-racist links.

If Cardiff had been stuffed full of racists I would have stopped going.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Welsh were white last time I looked.


Here's a Welsh white man yesterday.







> "I love being Welsh," he says. "It's part of my identity."
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2002/jul/08/athletics.comment


Oh, and here's a white Welsh woman.






Note the dress (actually, I'd better explain - it's the Welsh flag)

Your ignorance is simply staggering Johnny.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

I don't think Johnny really wants a constructive argument, he just wants to bash Britain.  After all, he turns a blind eye to the considerably greater racism in France, for some reason.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Your ignorance is simply staggering Johnny.



Not just his ignorance, but also his all too apparent desire to rescue something, anything from his original ill informed and poorly tought out contribution; the only problem being that he has remained consistently ill informed and lacking in clear thinking (apart from getting BA's dress sense off to a tee...nice waistcoat). It's almost as if his contributions were really all about him and not the subject under discussion.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

Canada's incredibly multiracial cabinet:

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/cabinet.asp?featureId=8


----------



## tarannau (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Canada's incredibly multiracial cabinet:
> 
> http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/cabinet.asp?featureId=8



That's great. A lot of those look like they're modelling haircuts in the style of those 'testimonial' pictures in the local downmarket barber


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If racism was such a rarity on the terraces, as you contend, exactly how was it that you were 'putting your neck on the line' by speaking out against it?



That seems like a fair question actually.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> I sold it on the terraces of Cardiff City - which for part of the time at least one national was claiming was a hotbed of C18 activity.
> 
> I sold it to home and away fans before the game and never ever got any hassle because of the anti-racist links.
> 
> If Cardiff had been stuffed full of racists I would have stopped going.



Did you travel to other clubs during that time? Or did you mostly stay in Wales?

Did you have much contact with supporters from London clubs for example of anywhere else in the country?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2008)

tarannau said:


> That's great. A lot of those look like they're modelling haircuts in the style of those 'testimonial' pictures in the local downmarket barber


 
*Toni's *


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> That seems like a fair question actually.


Already answered: "I sold it on the terraces of Cardiff City - which for part of the time at least one national was claiming *was a hotbed of C18 activity*."

I've always acknowledged that there's racist individuals at football games - in fact, you'll find them everywhere in society from terraces to boardrooms - but personally selling a zine with a strong anti-racist message to fans meant I had to put my commitment on the line. I stood out. I made a stand. I guess some folks may not have liked that.

I sold the zine all around the UK, both inside and outside stadiums. I even sold a few to Swansea fans!

The anti-racist strip I reproduced here was also given out free and about 90 (non Cardiff)  football fanzines published it and I had a lot of contact with other fanzines and supporters (who rang up with stories for the FFACJA campaign).


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Already answered: "I sold it on the terraces of Cardiff City - which for part of the time at least one national was claiming *was a hotbed of C18 activity*."
> 
> I've always acknowledged that there's racist individuals at football games - in fact, you'll find them everywhere in society from terraces to boardrooms - but personally selling a zine with a strong anti-racist message to fans meant I had to put my commitment on the line. I stood out. I made a stand. I guess some folks may not have liked that.
> 
> ...




Worth noting that at that time there were a fair few high profile C18 wannabes hanging around in Cardiff, including around the football (I never saw any at Ninian, but then I saw hardly anyone at Ninian in those days))

Other antiCJB camapaigners in the city were more than aware of the potential threat from the C18 types. there were a few high profile incidents in the city at the time.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Johhy Cannuck
> 
> what on earth is your justification for calling the editor a member of a 'right' group?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Then again, 'raghead' appears to be perfectly acceptable in the USA.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> So do those of the USA..



But they're at least aware of the fact.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> But the number of minorities in parliament has increased over the years, and will probably continue to do so.  There is a growing black middle class, too.
> 
> One thing I will say is that our class system does combine with these issues in so many ways.  Is it any easier for a white kid from an estate to get rich than a black kid from an estate?  I'm not at all convinced.
> .



Yes. If there was say, one  before, and now there's two, that's a hundred percent increase.

I don't accept that you honestly believe that the different treatment of blacks, is a class issue only and not a race issue.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> And by the way Johnny (and I know the Chinese experience is going to be different from the black one) my wife hasn't complained about any racism at all.  We're in Newcastle which is a mostly white city (and thus the sort of place you might expect racist attitudes to possibly be a bit more prevalent) and all she's said is how polite people are generally, and how helpful people are if she's been lost or something.  Not about what vicious marauding racists we are.



Well that's good, but the issue is the unconsciousness of the racism involved in using words like 'chinky'. The awareness of these people is so limited that they don't even realize that the possibility is there.

Why not ask your wife if it's ok to refer to a chinese restaurant or meal as a 'chinky'? Would she use the word?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> It's difficult explaining _anything_ to an idiot.



'Uncle Tom's Cabin': they've got it on Amazon, I'm sure.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> That's exactly right, it's hard because i view you as slave. And a house slave at that, not one of them fesity field slaves either.



You've got it all wrong: that was my pictorial representation of you, sucking up to the editor.

You don't mind that you're the black character in the picture, do you?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Here's a Welsh white man yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow. Two blacks.

You're white, aren't you?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> I don't think Johnny really wants a constructive argument, he just wants to bash Britain.  After all, he turns a blind eye to the considerably greater racism in France, for some reason.



I'm not on a French board. If I was, I would.

I know it disturbs you to have anything negative pointed out, but, there you go.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Not just his ignorance, but also his all too apparent desire to rescue something, anything from his original ill informed and poorly tought out contribution; the only problem being that he has remained consistently ill informed and lacking in clear thinking (apart from getting BA's dress sense off to a tee...nice waistcoat). It's almost as if his contributions were really all about him and not the subject under discussion.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Shit: and here was me thinking there was racism in britain.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Already answered: "I sold it on the terraces of Cardiff City - which for part of the time *at least one national was claiming **was a hotbed of C18 activity*.".




Bafflegab.

Who cares what 'one individual' was saying. 


What *you've* said, here, is that racist behaviour etc was rare on the terraces. That's the whole thrust of your opposition to what I was saying.

If you are right about that, I don't understand how you were putting your neck on the line by opposing something that was rare in its occurrence.

If it was widespread, you would have fact have been putting your neck on the line. It would have been a brave thing to do.

But there's not much bravery in confronting something that exists only on the periphery at best.

You can't have it both ways.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Who cares what 'one individual' was saying.


Are you drunk? It wasn't one individual'. It was one national newspaper with a readership of *millions*.

I see you're still making an utter arse of yourself with your racist claim that there are no Welsh blacks.

Shame on you.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm not on a French board. If I was, I would.
> 
> I know it disturbs you to have anything negative pointed out, but, there you go.



No - it's just that often you say stuff in such a sweeping, cack-handed way, completely unable to grasp the subtleties...

As editor says himself, if the racism had been really prevalent, he wouldn't have gone at all.

I remember that other time when you said that the majority of people only went to football for a punchup...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

editor said:


> Are you drunk? It wasn't one individual'. It was one national newspaper with a readership of *millions*.
> 
> I see you're still making an utter arse of yourself with your racist claim that there are no Welsh blacks.
> 
> Shame on you.



But you've said different here. You said racist behaviour was rare. Why are you quoting from something that disagrees with what you were saying?

As for blacks, you've given me a picture of two of them: how can I deny their existence?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> As editor says himself, if the racism had been really prevalent, he wouldn't have gone at all....



Meaning, it wasn't prevalent. Which means he wasn't putting his neck on the line by writing something that opposed it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 17, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> No - it's just that often you say stuff in such a sweeping, cack-handed way, completely unable to grasp the subtleties......



Racism appears to be a problem in your country, and was a bigger problem in the past. There: a sweeping statement. I hope I haven't missed out on the subtleties.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Meaning, it wasn't prevalent. Which means he wasn't putting his neck on the line by writing something that opposed it.


 
Johnny, Johnny, it only takes one racist loon to make your life a nightmare. A friend ended up in court after being attacked by some fascist - a coachload of these nasty fuckers attacked a coach he was on. After his name and address was printed in the press, due to a subsequent court case, a swastika was daubed on his door and then a brick came through the window.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

MC5 said:


> Johnny, Johnny, it only takes one racist loon to make your life a nightmare. A friend ended up in court after being attacked by some fascist - a coachload of these nasty fuckers attacked a coach he was on. After his name and address was printed in the press, due to a subsequent court case, a swastika was daubed on his door and then a brick came through the window.



Would you like a Handi-Wipe? The end of your nose has something brown on it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny, I'm starting to lose track of the main thrust of your argument now. You've already conceded that racist chanting in football in the UK is less prevalent nowadays than you originally thought - fair enough. 

And now your point is that there's still racism in Britain? Well, yes. I don't think anyone's saying otherwise. And that there's still some racism in sport albeit less than 30 years ago? Well, yes. I don't think anyone's saying otherwise there either.

Or are you saying that racism in Britain is worse than in North America? In which case I guess we'd better start doing some more meaningful comparisons in terms of institutionalised slavery, one-drop legislation, treatment of native Americans, relative types of society etc. 

Where are you wanting the discussion to head here?


----------



## isitme (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> Where are you wanting the discussion to head here?



nowhere, just into an argument for when he gets bored


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

isitme said:


> nowhere, just into an argument for when he gets bored



There's an element of that for sure, same as for many of us  But it is a subject/trigger close to his heart, so if he wants a ruck he'd better focus innit.


----------



## isitme (Oct 18, 2008)

someone got JC2 spot on the othe day calling him a TalkRadio DJ 

He's a good guy, he says stuff you disagree with and makes arguing fun and annoying

he even plays cheesy tunes sometimes


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> Or are you saying that racism in Britain is worse than in North America? In which case I guess we'd better start doing some more meaningful comparisons in terms of institutionalised slavery, one-drop legislation, treatment of native Americans, relative types of society etc.
> 
> Where are you wanting the discussion to head here?



It started with the 'common' comment, which admittedly was not based on knowledge or research. As a result of the replies, I actually did a bit of research, and withdrew the 'common' thing, but said that not making this sort of thing illegal till 1991 was still a very poor showing.

The response, from the ed mostly, and others, was that the passage of legislation didn't necessarily mean that the problem was widespread at the time, and might have had more to do with attracting advertisers etc. The existence of chanting and other displays of racism, even in the years leading up to the legislation, was downplayed. These things were pretty rare even back then, I was told.

But then, the ed pipes up with how he put his neck on the line by publishing an anti football racism tract or paper or newsletter or something. 

Which raised the question for me: if the problem was as rare/intermittent as the editor kept telling me it was, then how was he putting his neck on the line? If the problem was fairly common back then, as I had intuited, the aspect of danger would be real, but not if it wasn't very common.

To which he responded: 'well, one newspaper said that [his club or something] was a hotbed of C18 activity.

O-kay. If what the paper said was in fact true, it backs up the allegation that the ed. did something brave, in which case, much respect to him.

But if it is true, he obviously knew it. But it's not what he was saying before. Which leads me to the conclusion that he was being deliberately misleading, in an effort to score points.

Which is pretty funny, since his nose often gets out of joint as he accuses others of doing the same thing. We're all human, I suppose, but when people are doing that, you're left with the impression that you're wasting your time if you are in fact attempting to have a real conversation.

Where is this going? I don't know. But the idea that racism in the UK is now worse than it is in NA, is an idea that might have some basis in truth. No doubt it wasn't worse in the bad  bad past, but the 'good' thing, if one can call it that, about NA racism, is that it was out there, in your face. Enshrined in legislation in some cases, even. That gave the enemies of racism, something to focus on, and that's what they did. The ensuing battle, was the Civil Rights movement. And progress has been made.

In the UK it seems to me, lip service was paid to ideas of non racism, equality, etc, but underneath the surface, it would appear that a very real racism was entrenched there.

The difference you're left with is that in a place where it's admitted, in the open, it's like fighting Goliath. Big job, but you know the direction to fling your stones. In Britain, it's like David vs The Hydra. Smaller heads, harder to hit, and they keep popping up all over.

Maybe for that reason, and maybe others, you never had a Civil Rights movement, and it's certainly arguable that in some aspects, we're doing it better here, both in Canada and the US, than you are.


----------



## Detroit City (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> In the UK it seems to me, lip service was paid to ideas of non racism, equality, etc, but underneath the surface, it would appear that a very real racism was entrenched there.



People from the UK have basically been racist in their overseas colonies so it was never really a big factor on their home soil...ergo the average brit never had to deal with it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

isitme said:


> nowhere, just into an argument for when he gets bored



And you, the guy still signed on at 6 am, aren't bored?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

Detroit City said:


> People from the UK have basically been racist in their overseas colonies so it was never really a big factor on their home soil...ergo the average brit never had to deal with it.



But as the empire started collapsing, the 'chickens started coming home to roost', as it were. Little brown, black and yellow chickens.


Interesting point, though. The structures for the racist treatment of native americans in canada, were set in place by representatives of HM govt. And the original slave traders and owners in the future USA? Yep, you guessed it.

Yet another thing to thank The Empire for.


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

edit, reading stuff


----------



## Detroit City (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But as the empire started collapsing, the 'chickens started coming home to roost', as it were. Little brown, black and yellow chickens.



sooner or later you have to pay the piper

The average person from the UK can never understand the basic racist history of the US and Canada which was based upon home soil.  The didn't even understand why it was such a big deal when Halle Berry won the academy award for best actress...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

Detroit City said:


> sooner or later you have to pay the piper



Now they've got all those EU types coming in: Polish people etc. If they were still an Empire, they could send all those non english types right back to Gdansk.


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny, before I respond to what you've said - could you just explain why you've chosen to ignore my long post about my first hand experiences of my teenage years, the civil rights riot/demo which was formative for me?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> Johnny, before I respond to what you've said - could you just explain why you've chosen to ignore my long post about my first hand experiences of my teenage years, the civil rights riot/demo which was formative for me?



Uh, the thread is 744 posts long at the moment. If I missed one from you, I'm sorry.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> Johnny, before I respond to what you've said - could you just explain why you've chosen to ignore my long post about my first hand experiences of my teenage years, the civil rights riot/demo which was formative for me?



Actually, I remember a post from you and a couple of others about some fight against the NF. Is that the one you mean?


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Actually, I remember a post from you and a couple of others about some fight against the NF. Is that the one you mean?



It was this one http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8191881&postcount=608


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> It was this one http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8191881&postcount=608



I read that post. One 'Battle of Lewisham' does not a Civil Rights movement make.


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I read that post. One 'Battle of Lewisham' does not a Civil Rights movement make.



I'm not particularly bothered by your dismissiveness of that event. Or even by your dismissiveness of any other anti-racism measures described by other posters. If you're really that bothered you could take your massive postcount (exceeding editor's) and one man mission from Vancouver and direct it at Stormfront where it may have more effect than criticising our feeble attempts.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> I'm not particularly bothered by your dismissiveness of that event. Or even by your dismissiveness of any other anti-racism measures described by other posters. If you're really that bothered you could take your massive postcount (exceeding editor's) and one man mission from Vancouver and direct it at Stormfront where it may have more effect than criticising our feeble attempts.



It's always funny: direct criticism at good old Mother England, or whatever you call it, and this is inevitably the response, whether the criticism is warranted or not.


You know, good for you if you and a bunch of others got together and drove off some neonazi retards. But once again, I admire the sentiment, and appreciate that you're  on the right side of the fence, but in a way, it's like doing what you should be doing anyway. It's like some men want to be treated like heroes because they get a job in order to feed their family. Guess what dude: that's what you're supposed to do.

But ridding the town of a noxious pest is not a civil rights movement. For one thing, a true civil rights movement must arise within the oppressed group. It's about demanding your rights, forcing the issue, taking your rights, not waiting for table scraps from the dominant group.

If you don't understand what I'm getting at, feel free to keep your nose out of joint.


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

If you had any guts Johnny, you'd focus your ire and attention on the actual racists rather than seeking to undermine those of us that do what we can even though it's limited.

So what do you want to do? Fight us or fight the racists?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> If you had any guts Johnny, you'd focus your ire and attention on the actual racists rather than seeking to undermine those of us that do what we can even though it's limited.
> 
> So what do you want to do? Fight us or fight the racists?



What 'undermine'? I pointed out that you haven't had a true civil rights movement. You haven't. Get the chip off your shoulder.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> So what do you want to do? Fight us or fight the racists?



Part of fighting racism, is trying to cause awareness.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

Btw, if you get this pissy and nose out of joint over a few weak verbal hits from me, how are you going to fight the racists? They won't say things in a nice way like I do.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

It's hard to type and argue when trying to rock out to 'Rocks Off' by the Stones.


Maybe we should just dance, eh?


----------



## cesare (Oct 18, 2008)

Coward.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> Coward.



At U75, we're a group of people who talk about things. Would you rather that we avoided this topic?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Would you like a Handi-Wipe? The end of your nose has something brown on it.


 
Yeah right, but I see you've conceeded the point I made.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2;8203431]Part of fighting racism said:


> But then, the ed pipes up with how he put his neck on the line by publishing an anti football racism tract or paper or newsletter or something.
> 
> Which raised the question for me: if the problem was as rare/intermittent as the editor kept telling me it was, then how was he putting his neck on the line? If the problem was fairly common back then, as I had intuited, the aspect of danger would be real, but not if it wasn't very common..


I can't believe you're being this stupid. Really.

No one's denying the presence of individual racists in British society. You'll find them everywhere, sadly. Even in Canada.

But you waded into his thread with stupid and ignorant accusations that racist chanting was 'common' in British football. It's not. It's totally unacceptable in the modern game and has been for a long time. Why you cant accept that is anyone's guess.

And now, desperate to salvage something from your woefully ill-advised performance, you  you think you're on to something because I said I 'put my neck on the line' by selling an anti racist zine to football fans on the terraces. 

At the same time I was selling the zine - directly to home and away fans - the papers were reporting that a small but very violent far right wing group had infiltrated my club. So I'd say going around hawking an anti-racist zine  where racist nutters were supposedly on the prowl took a little bit of commitment. People generally don't like being confronted with their bigotry, and they probably like it even less when it's coming from someone who doesn't look like one of 'them.'

And, of course, all this happened fifteen years ago. So what is your point here, Johnny? Or is it this another of your piss weak attempts to bash the UK and/or me, like your astoundingly ridiculous Swept 11th Offline thread?


----------



## Dan U (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny you are chatting rubbish in this thread.

iirc for a start Cardiff had one of the earliest established Black communities in the UK (may have been mentioned already and i missed it?)

http://www.bhac.org/black_history.html

welsh people can be black shocker


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> Johnny you are chatting rubbish in this thread.
> 
> iirc for a start Cardiff had one of the earliest established Black communities in the UK (may have been mentioned already and i missed it?)
> 
> ...


His ignorance is embarrassing, 

Here's his stupid, racist comment one more time:


Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Welsh were white last time I looked.





> I am Welsh. My mother was born and brought up in North Wales, speaking Welsh. I have lived most of my life in Wales. When I look in the mirror I see brown skin and African features.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/llandudno/pages/isabeladonis.shtml


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

...and playing the "is it cos i is black" card in a number of ways (text: britain was a slaving society, subtext: therefore you as british people must be covering up some personal guilt thing; text: pic of oppressed black stereotype, subtext: therefore you personally look at 'us' black people like this) -  has done little to cover up the ignorance. A bit pathetic really.

I did raise some important wee points about how 'trying to cause awareness' was raised by those genuinely fighting racism historically in the real world - without any jibes or personal insults. You completely ignored it Johnny.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> Johnny you are chatting rubbish in this thread.
> 
> iirc for a start Cardiff had one of the earliest established Black communities in the UK (may have been mentioned already and i missed it?)
> 
> ...



No defending anyone here but I'll think you'll find that some Black people _native _to Wales are descendents of slaves.....


Like Colin Jackson for example...





> ONCE upon a time Wales was peppered with pubs called The Black Boy-today in North Wales there are just four left. In these enlightened times many of those that remain have had their signs changed to depict a sooty faced miner.
> 
> But, as Colin Jackson discovers in Colin's Wales, they originally represented the aristocratic tradition of keeping black boys as mascots. Jackson, who recently traced his own roots and discovered he was descended from slaves.....


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> No defending anyone here but I'll think you'll find that most Black people _native _to Wales are descendents of slaves.....



Which no one would dispute. I don't really see the point - ie what is being defended with this statement?

(although actually it could be more true that in Wales as with Liverpool most black settlers were decendents of sea-farers - its a mute point though because no one is disputing the role of slavery)


----------



## Dan U (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> No defending anyone here but I'll think you'll find that most Black people _native _to Wales are descendents of slaves.....
> 
> 
> Like Colin Jackson for example...



yes i get that of course.

but they are still Black and Welsh are they not these days? which is what i think Editor was replying to JC's assertion all Welsh people were White


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

editor said:


> But you waded into his thread with stupid and ignorant accusations that racist chanting was 'common' in British football. It's not. It's totally unacceptable in the modern game and has been for a long time. *Why you cant accept that is anyone's guess*.



What the hell is wrong with you?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

editor said:


> Or is it this another of your piss weak attempts to bash the UK and/or me, like your astoundingly ridiculous Swept 11th Offline thread?



Before you start taking it all personal-like, you should know that you don't show up high enough on my radar for me to go out of my way to 'bash' you. Everyone's pretty important to himself, but, I'm afraid you aren't that important to me.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> Which no one would dispute. I don't really see the point - ie what is being defended with this statement?
> 
> (although actually it could be more true that in Wales as with Liverpool most black settlers were decendents of sea-farers - its a mute point though because no one is disputing the role of slavery)



Good point...like Shirley Bassey's father for example...





> Bassey was born on 8 January 1937 at 182 Bute Street, Tiger Bay, Cardiff, to a Efik Nigerian sailor father and a mother from Yorkshire,


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> Johnny you are chatting rubbish in this thread.
> 
> iirc for a start Cardiff had one of the earliest established Black communities in the UK (may have been mentioned already and i missed it?)
> 
> ...



Glad to hear it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> yes i get that of course.
> 
> but they are still Black and Welsh are they not these days? which is what i think Editor was replying to JC's assertion all Welsh people were White



Yeah I hear ya. Of course they are now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 18, 2008)

isitme said:


> someone got JC2 spot on the othe day calling him a TalkRadio DJ



That would have been I.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

editor said:


> His ignorance is embarrassing,
> 
> Here's his stupid, racist comment one more time:
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/llandudno/pages/isabeladonis.shtml



Well, whaddya know: one quarter of one percent of all Welsh people, are black.



> Ethnic groups:
> 
> * White: British: 95.99%
> * White: Irish: 0.61%
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Wales

...while something like 98%...........are white.

If you want to dissemble and mislead, do it with someone else. You aren't very good at it.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 18, 2008)

http://www.black-history-month.co.uk/

is on in the UK at the moment.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Good point...like Shirley Bassey's father for example...



I think Colin's tracing of his family history went back to slavery in the caribbean (some of his family were also jamaican maroons - free people living on the fringes of slave jamaica who fought the british troops for decades). His family came as sea-farers from the caribbean (although obviously their familes origin in the caribbean was enforced by slavers.

A good friend of mine spend a long time looking for her roots - from Bristol to the Caribbean to Africa. Only to find her family origins in Africa included some of the biggest african slave traders along that coast.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> http://www.black-history-month.co.uk/
> 
> is on in the UK at the moment.



Your point is?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

98%. I'd say that puts Wales in contention for one of the whitest countries on earth.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Dan U said:


> http://www.black-history-month.co.uk/
> 
> is on in the UK at the moment.



...even in Wales


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

Maybe he's gone to the bathroom, or he's looking in the mirror to see how long his nose has grown.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> I think Colin's tracing of his family history went back to slavery in the caribbean (some of his family were also jamaican maroons - *free people* living on the fringes of slave jamaica who fought the british troops for decades).


  Maroons were runaway slaves and their descendants, freedom fighters if you like. They can hardly be described as 'free people'. 



> His family came as sea-farers from the caribbean (although obviously their familes origin in the caribbean was enforced by slavers.


 Okay.



> A good friend of mine spend a long time looking for her roots - from Bristol to the Caribbean to Africa. Only to find her family origins in Africa included some of the biggest african slave traders along that coast.


 Yeap, I'm aware of some African involvement in the slave trade. I'm also aware that some did it to save their own skins. Lots of colonialists did well to exploit the tribalism that existed already.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Maroons were runaway slaves and their descendants, freedom fighters if you like.



Yes, I know - was leaving that for other folk to find out more if interested 

Real life is a bit more complicated - some historians argue that some maroon communities retained their independance partly by 'truces' with authorities but partly by 'turning gamekeeper' - returning later escaped slaves to their 'masters'. So the 'freedom' fighters' term is probably less accurate than the term free people' - if true of course

Actually, I found out about an equivilent in Brazil a wee while ago - a whole african society with villages and towns translanted to SA that managed to survive for decades (maybe a century - I cannot remember the facts - a much bigger scale than jamaica in any case). 



Rutita1 said:


> They can hardly be described as 'free people'.



They weren't slaves... so were about as free as the rest of us.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> some historians argue that some maroon communities retained their independance partly by 'truces' with authorities but partly by 'turning gamekeeper' - returning later escaped slaves to their 'masters'..



I suppose it's what you call a Hobson's choice: be killed or re-enslaved, or help catch other runaway slaves. Yet another degradation visited upon them.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I suppose it's what you call a Hobson's choice: be killed or re-enslaved, or help catch other runaway slaves. Yet another degradation visited upon them.



Yep, I don't think either of us could sit in judgement - neither of us having been through the same situation or time


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> Yes, I know - was leaving that for other folk to find out more if interested
> 
> Real life is a bit more complicated - some historians argue that some maroon communities retained their independance partly by 'truces' with authorities but partly by 'turning gamekeeper' - returning later escaped slaves to their 'masters'. So the 'freedom' fighters' term is probably less accurate than the term free people' - if true of course
> 
> Actually, I found out about an equivilent in Brazil a wee while ago - a whole african society with villages and towns translanted to SA that managed to survive for decades (maybe a century - I cannot remember the facts - a much bigger scale than jamaica in any case).


 Interesting.





> They weren't slaves... *so were about as free as the rest of us.*


 My point was that they runaways, on the run, had to fight to stay *free*. They had to hide. All off which to me doesn't equate to freedom.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> Yep, I don't think either of us could sit in judgement - neither of us having been through the same situation or time



Well, unlike you, I think I can pass judgement on those who enslave other people, and especially the brand of slavery practiced by white Europeans. As you know, slavery takes different forms, and has been around for millenia. But rarely was it as extreme, with so few if any mechanisms for manumission, as when practiced by Europeans.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> My point was that they runaways, on the run, had to fight to stay *free*. They had to hide. All off which to me doesn't equate to freedom.



Yeah, they were as free as escaped convicts are in modern society.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

*Wonders whether the OP is happy with how this thread has progressed*


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> My point was that they runaways, on the run, had to fight to stay *free*. They had to hide. All off which to me doesn't equate to freedom.



we could get lost in a minor disagreement over a bit of a mute point really. i am not really disputing the limitations of their freedoms.

crudley i could argue if one was not a 'slave' then one was 'free' - regardless of how the status of not being a slave was maintained. They are relative terms really.

the reason i raised was just one of interest in 'how things change' rather than 'how they were' - to show that 'slavery' itself of a complicated reality. i suppose the point that human beings still 'acted for themselves' within whatever limits were imposed upon them and pushing those limits - the history of 'resistance' always runs alongside that of those often simply presented as victims. i like history but not how it is often presented.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well, unlike you, I think I can pass judgement on those who enslave other people, and especially the brand of slavery practiced by white Europeans. As you know, slavery takes different forms, and has been around for millenia. But rarely was it as extreme, with so few if any mechanisms for manumission, as when practiced by Europeans.



What has that got to do with judging maroons? So we agree on not judging those resisting slavery? Yes?

Do you think you are 'raising my awareness'? and why do you think I could not or would not pass judgement on slavers?

the 'industrial' scale of the slave triangle makes african or arab slavers no better in my book. Would you go on about the 'whites' as being the key element of some special type of bad character who has some kind of special capacity of such appalling acts to some person still living in slavery in Sudan?




i hope you are not trying on that "is it cos i is black" thing again - you arn't, are you?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> we could get lost in a minor disagreement over a bit of a mute point really. i am not really disputing the limitations of their freedoms.
> 
> crudley i could argue if one was not a 'slave' then one was 'free' - regardless of how the status of not being a slave was maintained. They are relative terms really.


 I agree but my comment was in response to this...





> They weren't slaves... so were about as free as the rest of us.


Which I didn't agree with.



> the reason i raised was just one of interest in 'how things change' rather than 'how they were' - to show that 'slavery' itself of a complicated reality. i suppose the point that human beings still 'acted for themselves' within whatever limits were imposed upon them and pushing those limits - the history of 'resistance' always runs alongside that of those often simply presented as victims. i like history but not how it is often presented.



History itself is complex, it's important to accept all perspectives, where possible. 

In terms of slavery... the presentation of 'those' simply as victims is relative. The vast majority were IMO, doesn't mean I am unaware of or don't consider the exceptions.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> i hope you are not trying on that "is it cos i is black" thing again - you arn't, are you?




This is where you loose me, with comments like this.

Johnny's perspective doesn't need to be for those reasons. ^^^^^^

It's a low blow accusing him of a low blow.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> History itself is complex, it's important to accept all perspectives, where possible.
> 
> In terms of slavery... the presentation of 'those' simply as victims is relative. The vast majority were IMO, doesn't mean I am unaware of or don't consider the exceptions.



Thats the interesting bit to me.

The thing is what therefore are the mechanisms whereby slavery (as the example we are talking about) was abolished? I think that constant resistance did exist in a thousand forms and is either understated or underrated in the way it is presented now.

The relative cost of sustaining the status quo became unsustainable I suppose. I'm no expert. 

And that goes back to my earlier comment - the one you disagree with. I think what you disgree with is the result of an understandable 'moral' viewpoint - you may think I am comparing like for like and are right to argue that they cannot be lamely compared. I wasn't though - just poor use of language at worst on my part. I'm not that interested in the morality of it though (like you and most folk i would have decided slavery was appalling long ago) - more in how to change things - especially from the point of view of us 'free' people who are not formally 'property' and 'owned by someone else' nowadays. Does that make sense?


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> This is where you loose me, with comments like this.
> 
> Johnny's perspective doesn't need to be for those reasons. ^^^^^^
> 
> It's a low blow accusing him of a low blow.



Unfortunately - he did the 'low blow' thing a couple of times - with a couple of posters. Maybe its part of his idea of a 'debating technique', I don't know - it just pissed people off and if he was that interested in 'raising awareness' that was not helpful. And it does raise questions as to what his 'reasons' are.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> Thats the interesting bit to me.
> 
> The thing is what therefore are the mechanisms whereby slavery (as the example we are talking about) was abolished? I think that constant resistance did exist in a thousand forms and is either understated or underrated in the way it is presented now.



Slavery went on for a long time and touched the lives of millions therefore I understand why we can discuss it for what it was before bringing in perspectives of abolition. Although I'm fully aware that the two things ran concurrently for a long time.

What on this thread has made you consider the forms of abolition that you describe as 'understated or underrated'?



> The relative cost of sustaining the status quo became unsustainable I suppose. I'm no expert.


 I think it was more than cost, in financial terms. I think people's morality and value systems kicked in. Other's realised that it undermined who they claimed to be, what they wanted to be a part of.



> And that goes back to my earlier comment - the one you disagree with. I think what you disgree with is the result of an understandable 'moral' viewpoint - you may think I am comparing like for like and are right to argue that they cannot be lamely compared. I wasn't though - just poor use of language at worst on my part. I'm not that interested in the morality of it though (like you and most folk i would have decided that long ago) - more in how to change things. Does that make sense?


Yes, it makes sense.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2008)

dennisr said:


> *Unfortunately - he did the 'low blow' thing a couple of times - with a couple of posters.* Maybe its part of his idea of a 'debating technique', I don't know - it just pissed people off and if he was that interested in 'raising awareness' that was not helpful. And it does raise questions as to what his 'reasons' are.


Playing devils advocate here: Perhaps that is down to how his posts were interpreted. Meaning he could have been doing that, or maybe he was interpreted as doing that.

Anyway, I can't speak for him, so I shouldn't.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Slavery went on for a long time and touched the lives of millions therefore I understand why we can discuss it for what it was before bringing in perspectives of abolition. Although I'm fully aware that the two things ran concurrently for a long time.
> 
> What on this thread has made you consider the forms of abolition that you describe as 'understated or underrated'?



The whole argument - and the raising of slavery as part of that showed a particular view of history being accepted. We going off at a right old tangent here but i meant *resistance* to slavery was understated. The reasons for abolition was written by those who run the show not the rest of us. 



Rutita1 said:


> I think it was more than cost, in financial terms. I think people's morality and value systems kicked in. Other's realised that it undermined who they claimed to be, what they wanted to be a part of.



But if that arguement is true - why did it take so many hundreds of years for that morality and value system to kick in?!

Of course to an extent that true - millions morally opposed slavery before it was abolished - weather tosaint l'overture's (spelling?) slave army in haiti, or maroons, or John Brown style religious anti-slavers in the us, or cotton workers and other trade unionists in lancashire, or passively resisting slave on cotton plantations in the deep south, organising the underground railway, educating themselves, using church and other gatherings to spread opposition - their moral opposition exposed the horrors. But their physical opposition made the slave system unsustainable. I think the newly found morality of those at the top was re-invented after the event.

Cannot remember the details but if i understand it rightly elizabeth the first was initially opposed to the idea of british involvement in slavery for example but as the spanish trade kicked in and some of her own (paid with backhanders) privateers and fellow pirates (John Hawkes was it who was the first english slaver?) tried to knick a bit of the rapidly developing trade from the spanish she soon re-invented her then morality. well, business is business. The legitimisation is terms of de-humanising people - of religious clap-trap etc - kicked in only after the practice had started.

Human beings are capable of accepting (or, at the very least, turning a blind eye too') all sorts of horrors at any given point in time - regardless of the skin pigmentation of those human beings. They do nowadays, for example, when they buy their cheap clothes from george (and I'm not innocent) while tens of thousands work in virtual 'slave' conditions, or fill their cars while others get bombed so the flow of oil can continue. We could just call that racismI - but it isn't , its economics - the use of racism, among other things is just the (a)'moral' cover used to legitimise the acts. I think this system is an utterly appalling travesty as well but I don't think my moral opposition alone will be enough to change things - it plays it part of course.

Like I say , i'm no expert this is just typing stuff down as I try to quickly think it through.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 18, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Playing devils advocate here: Perhaps that is down to how his posts were interpreted. Meaning he could have been doing that, or maybe he was interpreted as doing that.
> 
> Anyway, I can't speak for him, so I shouldn't.



As a long time lurker on the various spats on urban - I get the impression that the way his posts were inerpreted was pretty apt 

its all pretend 'moral high-horse' stuff - as long as the situation was a long time ago and the social/class questions can be safely taken out of the interpretation of those events. Modrn horrors are often acceptable to him as far as I see


----------



## _float_ (Oct 18, 2008)

Millions of people died in the 20th century due to 'forced labour' in Germany, Russia, China, Japan, Burma etc.

According to Kevin Bales, in Disposable People: New Slavery in the Global Economy (1999), there are today an estimated 27 Million slaves in the world. (wiki-fact-tastic)

Anyone want to [lecture anyone] sorry I mean "raise awareness" about these? Johnny?


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well, whaddya know: one quarter of one percent of all Welsh people, are black.


And according to you they either don't exist, or they're not Welsh. Do you have to be white to be Welsh then Johnny?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 19, 2008)

editor said:


> And according to you they either don't exist, or they're not Welsh. Do you have to be white to be Welsh then Johnny?



98 percent_ are_ white. That's about as close to a lock as you're going to get in this world.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 19, 2008)

dennisr said:


> Do you think you are 'raising my awareness'? )



As if I gave a shit about your awareness.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 19, 2008)

dennisr said:


> i hope you are not trying on that "is it cos i is black" thing again - you arn't, are you?



Why would I? It obviously wouldn't get me very far with a white racist twat like yourself.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 19, 2008)

dennisr said:


> The relative cost of sustaining the status quo became unsustainable I suppose. I'm no expert.



Based on that statement, it's pretty obvious that you're far from being an expert.


----------



## isitme (Oct 19, 2008)

The whole welsh pride must be a head doer for people who take it seriously

They are the original british people, and they love feeling superior to anyone who came to 'their island' 

except people who aren't from north european races

cos other wise it would be racist

and of course some of their brothers in america love dragons as well


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 19, 2008)

isitme said:


> They are the original british people, and they love feeling superior to anyone who came to 'their island'



Do the black welsh feel this way too, like it's 'their island'?

Do the white welsh agree that the black welsh are fellow stewards of 'their island'?


----------



## isitme (Oct 19, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do the black welsh feel this way too, like it's 'their island'?
> 
> Do the white welsh agree that the black welsh are fellow stewards of 'their island'?



It's not to do with being 'welsh' it's to do with being 'celtic' 

I doubt they can feel any pride in being welsh tbh since welsh nationalists always seem to bring up the fact that most english people came from europe long after them as a source of national pride


----------



## Jonti (Oct 19, 2008)

> Everything you know about British and Irish ancestry is wrong. Our ancestors were Basques, not Celts. The Celts were not wiped out by the Anglo-Saxons, in fact neither had much impact on the genetic stock of these islands



Read on ...


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 19, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Wow. Two blacks.
> 
> You're white, aren't you?



You've never been to Wales have you?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 19, 2008)

Paul Robeson loved Wales.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 19, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Paul Robeson loved Wales.



Yes he did and he became an honorary Welshman too.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do the black welsh feel this way too, like it's 'their island'?


If you knew anything about Welsh history - or had bothered to read some of the links I've put up - you'd be smart enough to know it's time to stop digging Johnny.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 19, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Why would I? It obviously wouldn't get me very far with a white racist twat like yourself.



denisr is not a racist . i suspect you might be


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh, behave yourself, Al.  Of all the things you can reasonably call Johnny, racist isn't one of them.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 19, 2008)

isitme said:


> The whole welsh pride must be a head doer for people who take it seriously
> 
> They are the original british people, and they love feeling superior to anyone who came to 'their island'
> 
> ...



they aren't the original british people .there were people in these islands way before the celts,indeed thy Brythonic Celts (ie Welsh,cornish,bretons were a second wave  after the Gaelic speaking Celts


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 19, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh, behave yourself, Al.  Of all the things you can reasonably call Johnny, racist isn't one of them.



since when has accuracy had anything to do with accusations of Racism  in this site (or anywhere else for that matter). I am merely joining in the 'call everyone else a racist' game .

sort of like 'denounce your neighbour' in Stalinist Russia


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 19, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> since when has accuracy had anything to do with accusations of Racism  in this site (or anywhere else for that matter). I am merely joining in the 'call everyone else a racist' game .


Who is doing that?  Only one poster, and he retracted when told not to be silly.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 19, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Why would I? It obviously wouldn't get me very far with a white racist twat like yourself.



Johnny, as someone put it "Coward", I'd add cunt to that


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 20, 2008)

editor said:


> you'd be smart enough to know it's time to stop digging Johnny.



Don't patronize me.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 20, 2008)

dennisr said:


> Johnny, as someone put it "Coward", I'd add cunt to that



I'd add 'fuck off' to that.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 20, 2008)

editor said:


> If you knew anything about Welsh history - or had bothered to read some of the links I've put up - you'd be smart enough to know it's time to stop digging Johnny.



The unfortunate thing is this: it's my suspicion that racism at football games wasn't all that uncommon back in the day, including at your beloved Cardiff City, and that publishing an anti racist newsletter was an act of courage and selflessness, but because you're too pigheaded ever to back down on anything, this stupid fight has ensued.

And before you start, I'm not saying that you're the only pigheaded one.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The unfortunate thing is this: it's my suspicion that racism at football games wasn't all that uncommon back in the day, including at your beloved Cardiff City...


Hey, why bother listening to the people _who actually went to the games_ when you can make it up yourself!

Racism was not 'common' at Cardiff in the nineties. I know this because _I was fucking there._


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 20, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The unfortunate thing is this: it's my suspicion...



For once you're right; the unfortunate thing is that it is your suspicion, not empirical evidence, not even coherent argument. It becomes even more unfortunate when you use your suspicions as the justification for chucking around the charge of racism; I'm sure the irony of using unfounded prejudice to detrimentally stereotype people is not lost on you.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> For once you're right; the unfortunate thing is that it is your suspicion, not empirical evidence, not even coherent argument. It becomes even more unfortunate when you use your suspicions as the justification for chucking around the charge of racism; I'm sure the irony of using unfounded prejudice to detrimentally stereotype people is not lost on you.


Spot on.


----------



## N_igma (Oct 20, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> I think it was more than cost, in financial terms.



In South America perhaps but not in the United States. The conditions were too harsh in South America and the Carribean to sustain it. Plus with the abolition of the slave trade it was hard to get a new generation of slaves to work on the plantations (hence why women slaves in America went from having little value to being one of the most sought after in the slave market because fo their ability to breed). Also, demographic differences were important, in Haiti for instance only about 2% of the population were white so the slaves could rebel and have less chance of being defeated. In America and particularly the South, slaves made only 25% of the population so there was less chance of rebellion actually suceeding.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Essentially it goes (to the tune of lord of the dance)
> Sol SOl  wherever you may be
> you're on teh brink of insanity
> and we don't give a fuck if you're hanging from a tree
> ...



Racism:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.  

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.  

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.  

Football chants or jokes are not really racist there just.......tasteless

I've never heard a joke or chant that implies one race is superior to another


----------



## belboid (Oct 20, 2008)

monkey chants aren't racist?  Or are you just deaf to those?


----------



## aylee (Oct 20, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> Hanging from a tree is far more likley
> 
> Him hanging himself
> 
> or a reference to Judas



As befits one of the most woefully internally inconsistent books ever written, there is more than one biblical version of how Judas Iscariot died, according to the wikipedia entry, although I can see why you would believe that he hanged himself if you got your New Testament from the film of "Jesus Christ Superstar".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_Iscariot#Death

Apologies if someone pointed out this already, but I can't be arsed to go through 34 pages of trolling.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

belboid said:


> monkey chants aren't racist?  Or are you just deaf to those?



There offensive yes but not racist


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> There offensive yes but not racist


I can honestly say that I've (thankfully) never heard monkey chants at a football game, but you've got to be some kind of blinkered idiot to not acknowledge their obvious racist connotations.


----------



## belboid (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> There offensive yes but not racist



what utter nonsense.  Even within the definition you give (one clearly designed to deny that anything ever is racist), its meant to imply that black people are, y'know, monkeys, which would generally be said to be 'inferior' to homo saps.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2008)

It's badco's turn is it?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It's badco's turn is it?


This thread is like an idiot magnet!

Know nothing about football? Step right up!


----------



## belboid (Oct 20, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It's badco's turn is it?



the proud supporter of the BNP's immigration policy!


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

belboid said:


> the proud supporter of the BNP's immigration policy!



did somebody say my name?


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It's badco's turn is it?



I'll save it for the immigration thread


----------



## xes (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> There offensive yes but not racist



eerrr,what? 


blatently racist,as even a simple fool like myself can tell.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

So why  do people at football crowds make monkey chants only specifically only at black players then Badco? How can that not be racist?


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

belboid said:


> the proud supporter of the BNP's immigration policy!



The only thing I support regarding their immigration policy is withdrawing from the EU


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

tarannau said:


> So why  do people at football crowds make monkey chants only specifically only at black players then Badco?



Because they believe black people look like monkeys?Like a fat bastard looks like a beached whale etc etc


----------



## xes (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> Because they believe black people look like monkeys?Like a fat bastard looks like a beached whale etc etc



which makes it racist.


----------



## N_igma (Oct 20, 2008)

It's not a case of either or Badco, it's racist *and * offensive.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

xes said:


> which makes it racist.



Wayne Rooney looks like a monkey am I racist for saying that

Racism IMO is judging somebody based on skin colour/religous beliefs and using that judgement to imply they are of a lesser cut than you or your race

What about the chants aimed at white football players?What category do they fall in?Why isn't there a thread started about how offensive they are to said football player?

My opinion is that football chants are fans stooping as low as they can to cause distress..........calling a players wife a slag,calling the players homosexual,calling black players monkeys and so on


----------



## xes (Oct 20, 2008)

making derogatory remarks based on skin colour/race IS racist. End of.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

Fuck me, you're a _special_ kind of idiot Badco.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2008)

Why is it offensive to call someone a monkey  badco?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

It's not racist according to Badco though, because all black people _do_ look like monkeys.

Or something equally unpleasant.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

xes said:


> making derogatory remarks based on skin colour/race IS racist. End of.



LOL I like this site

It's ok to judge people based on intellect,political beliefs,religous beliefs etc

Why is it taboo to make judgements based on race(which I never have) yet,in effect, glorifying paedophillia(which i have seen often on u75) is fair game?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> LOL I like this site
> 
> It's ok to judge people based on intellect,political beliefs,religous beliefs etc
> 
> Why is it taboo to make judgements based on race(which I never have) yet,in effect, glorifying paedophillia(which i have seen often on u75) is fair game?



You what!


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 20, 2008)

Actually there have been several threads about judgements based on race here.  The last one was during the Oylmpics, iirc.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

Badco's going for advanced level idiocy qualifications here for sure. 

Run that logic past us again chap.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

Maybe my last post was a bit er whatever

Basically I find some posters quite hypocritical

Certain taboos are absolutely outragiouse on u75 where as others are completely ignored or made light of

Things such as another posters political beliefs or intellect are ridiculled where others are not challenged

Who gets to decide what opinions are acceptable and which are not


----------



## N_igma (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> glorifying paedophillia(which i have seen often on u75) is fair game?





Examples?


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

N_igma said:


> Examples?



No,its just an observation from the 2 years I have been a regular visitor to this board

Signing off from this thread now


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> Maybe my last post was a bit er whatever
> 
> Basically I find some posters quite hypocritical
> 
> ...



What are you gibbering on about? Examples please, so we can have a laugh like.

You're a grand example of a BNP supporter claiming that they're not racist but showing themselves to be otherwise mind.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

N_igma said:


> Examples?



http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=237305&highlight=school+girls+pyjamas

Theres a start anyway.........that was the first search result


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

An example of what?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 20, 2008)

Q. What can Badco do that no other poster can?

A. Make Al Kahul and JC2 look like intellectual titans.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

DapperDonDamaja said:


>



Thats quite disgusting aswell..........from an urban poster

Nobody except me passed comment


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=237305&highlight=school+girls+pyjamas
> 
> Theres a start anyway.........that was the first search result


What the fuck are you on about?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

So, how long do we give this racist BNP numbnut then?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> Thats quite disgusting aswell..........from an urban poster
> 
> Nobody except me passed comment


So a poster on urban is guilty of encouraging paedophilia with, err, cuddly toy bears?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> Maybe my last post was a bit er whatever
> 
> Basically I find some posters quite hypocritical
> 
> ...



A political belief or an agument can be ridiculed on the basis of incoherence of presentation, lack of supporting evidence or fundamental flaws in reasoning. Ridiculing someone on the basis of the colour of their skin can't be done on the same basis; do you see the difference? You wouldn't be having a go at someone for what they have done (been incoherent, evidence light or unthinking) but rather what they are.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 20, 2008)

Someone post a brasseye link quick!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 20, 2008)

tarannau said:


> An example of what?


That is a thread devoted to glorifying paedophiles.

Just like this one is a thread devoted to stilton cheese and pirates.


----------



## belboid (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> The only thing I support regarding their immigration policy is withdrawing from the EU



well thats not what you said last time, is it? and it doesnt sound like you've become more liberal, so maybe you thin k the BNP are too soft nowadays?


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Someone post a brasseye link quick!



signing off


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> Thats quite disgusting aswell..........from an urban poster
> 
> Nobody except me passed comment



It's interesting what you can see in a picture or read into a thread if you put your mind to it; why you'd want to do so is another matter.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> signing off


Surely you mean, "running away before my arse gets kicked any more"?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> signing off



That's twice on this page.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Surely you mean, "running away before my arse gets kicked any more"?



No No

Its not like I have to save face because nobody pon this board knows who I am.........I mean its only the web at the end of the day.I could go on rambling all day long without looking like a twat in non tinterweb world

You only need look at the crap joke thread to see the hypocracy from some posters

I posted three tasteless jokes without consiquence yet as soon as I even mentioned possibly posting a racist joke(which i didnt) I was jumped on

Anyway xx


----------



## audiotech (Oct 20, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> That's twice on this page.
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
Withdrawal from his drug addiction perhaps, or maybe he has to have a wank over a cuddly bear?


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> You only need look at the crap joke thread to see the hypocracy from some posters
> 
> I posted three tasteless jokes without consiquence yet as soon as I even mentioned possibly posting a racist joke(which i didnt) I was jumped on
> 
> Anyway xx


Ya rly.


----------



## badco (Oct 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Ya rly.



I won't resort to the old ''fuck off''


----------



## tarannau (Oct 20, 2008)

Stirling work Badco. Short of dressing yourself up in this outfit, you couldn't have exposed yourself any more:


----------



## lights.out.london (Oct 20, 2008)

> Originally *Posted by badco  *
> Maybe my last post was a bit er whatever
> 
> Basically I find some posters quite hypocritical
> ...



People can and do choose their political and religious beliefs.

No-one, except for orange-tanned party girls and Mikey Jackson ever got to choose the colour of their skin.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 20, 2008)

lights.out.london said:


> People can and do choose their political and religious beliefs.
> 
> No-one, except for orange-tanned party girls and Mikey Jackson ever got to choose the colour of their skin.



People can also *change* their religious and political beliefs.

Nobody, except for orange-tanned party girls, Michael Jackson or Brits abroad managed to change the colour of their skin.


----------



## lights.out.london (Oct 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> People can also *change* their religious and political beliefs.
> 
> Nobody, except for orange-tanned party girls, Michael Jackson or Brits abroad managed to change the colour of their skin.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 20, 2008)

editor said:


> Hey, why bother listening to the people _who actually went to the games_ when you can make it up yourself!
> 
> Racism was not 'common' at Cardiff in the nineties. I know this because _I was fucking there._



My difficulty is that numerous times, people have told me things on here, that later turned out to be inaccurate. This can happen for a couple of reasons: one, they're simply being dishonest, in order to win an argument. Another is that an individual's perception might be different from many other people's, for one reason or another. 

Early on, a number of posters here, including a number who are still around, told me in a number of posts, that 'nonce', meant 'silly person', and not 'kiddy fiddler', as I had previously  believed. There have been other similar instances.

What that means, is that when someone tells me something 'factual', I like to confirm it via third party sources. In this instance, I've looked at the press releases etc from the relevant period, and I've based my conclusions on what happened, from those sources.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 20, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> For once you're right; the unfortunate thing is that it is your suspicion, not empirical evidence, not even coherent argument. It becomes even more unfortunate when you use your suspicions as the justification for chucking around the charge of racism; I'm sure the irony of using unfounded prejudice to detrimentally stereotype people is not lost on you.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Who have I accused of being racist?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 20, 2008)

badco said:


> There offensive yes but not racist



So says white boy.


----------



## editor (Oct 20, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What that means, is that when someone tells me something 'factual', I like to confirm it via third party sources. In this instance, I've looked at the press releases etc from the relevant period, and I've based my conclusions on what happened, from those sources.


That's great. So you show me your sources, press releases and evidence that proves that Cardiff had a major problem with racism in the nineties.

Thanks.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> That's great. So you show me your sources, press releases and evidence that proves that Cardiff had a major problem with racism in the nineties.
> 
> Thanks.



How about the article you mentioned, the national newpaper, citing Cardiff as a 'hotbed of C18 activity'?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

> "I'm from Moss Side in Manchester, which has and had a large black population. So I was lucky to start at Manchester City, a club which at the time was producing a lot of black players, such as Alex Williams, Clive Wilson, Roger Palmer and so on. There were half a dozen of us in the team and there were black faces in the crowd.
> 
> But when I moved to Cardiff I started to encounter racism.



http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/a-league-of-our-own-599379.html


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

> Inter City Firm v Soul Crew, Cardiff '03: My First Taste of Football Hooliganism



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...iff-03-my-first-taste-of-football-hooliganism


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

> A night game at Ninian Park - home of
> Cardiff City - is a daunting place to visit even for the most seasoned
> football fan.



http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cach...Cardiff+City"+racism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

I also have to wonder why, if racism was a minor problem in Cardiff, you took the time to publish an anti racist newsletter.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

> Trainspotting writer Irvine Welsh is working on a film about Cardiff City FC's notorious "Soul Crew" hooligan element.
> 
> He will adapt a controversial book of the same name - an insider account of violence organised by hardcore Bluebirds fans.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2307643.stm




> Cardiff City chairman Sam Hammam claims he can reform the club's troublemakers by taming them with "love and hugs".
> 
> Their Ninian Park ground has been the scene of a string of violent episodes this season, including incidents at games against Leeds United, Stoke City and Swansea City.
> 
> The BBC2 series Hooligans has shown how Hammam celebrated the club's promotion in 2001 with members of the notorious Soul Crew gang.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/talking_point/1997204.stm


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

> The violence involved with this derby was featured in a BBC documentary in 2001, Hooligans. In the programme a reporter wearing a hidden camera infiltrated the *Soul Crew*, exposing the use of *racist chanting and abuse* as well as a lack of control by stewards and police.[6]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severnside_Derby


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

For fuck's sake. You're not even bothering to read the articles or even look at the dates. You're just posting up a load of random Google results.


Johnny Canuck2 said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/a-league-of-our-own-599379.html


The player was at Cardiff between in 1981-4. That's not the nineties.





Johnny Canuck2;8214845][URL]http://bleacherreport.com/articles/39775-inter-city-firm-v-soul-crew-cardiff-03-my-first-taste-of-football-hooliganism[/URL][/quote]This is from 2003 and doesn't even mention racism said:


> http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cach...Cardiff+City"+racism&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca


This link has nothing to do with Cardiff City FC at all.

It's about a Jamaica vs Wales friendly in the city. And again, there's no mention of racism at all. NONE.

Stop wasting my fucking time.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Re: a 2007 Cardiff game against the Spurs:



> Not only is there a problem with a bunch of spotty 15 year old soul crew chavs, but there's* constant racial abuse aimed at opposition players from "fans" in the Popular Terrace. *The officials need to stamp this out very quickly by punishing those responsible with life bans. there's no room for racism in football



http://blamerbellbriefs.blogspot.com/2007/01/cardiff-city-football-violence.html


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2307643.stm
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/talking_point/1997204.stm


Yet again, no mention of racism again.

This is pathetic stuff.





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severnside_Derby


... and the source of that Wikipedia claim makes no mention of racism at all.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

> In October 2004 a BBC report stated that Cardiff had more fans banned than any other Football League club, with 160 banning orders against its fans, more than double any other Welsh club.[119]



http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Soccer-hooligan#Wales


----------



## audiotech (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Re: a 2007 Cardiff game against the Spurs:
> 
> 
> 
> http://blamerbellbriefs.blogspot.com/2007/01/cardiff-city-football-violence.html


 
Dear me, you're getting desperate. Just admit you're wrong and the pain will be over.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> For fuck's sake. You're not even bothering to read the articles or even look at the dates. You're just posting up a load of random Google results.
> 
> The player was at Cardiff between in 1981-4. That's not the nineties.This is from 2003 and doesn't even mention racism, you pillock.This link has nothing to do with Cardiff City FC at all.
> 
> ...



You'll recall, you also told me that hooliganism was essentially a thing of the past. In doing the research, it would seem that there is a different perception re: that problem, than the one you have. I'm just throwing that in as part of the weighing process, of determining the veracity of your reporting re the prevalence of racism.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Re: a 2007 Cardiff game against the Spurs:
> 
> 
> 
> http://blamerbellbriefs.blogspot.com/2007/01/cardiff-city-football-violence.html



Ed: any comment?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Re: a 2007 Cardiff game against the Spurs:
> 
> http://blamerbellbriefs.blogspot.com/2007/01/cardiff-city-football-violence.html


FFS: and now you're reduced to repeating laughably ill-informed drivel from blogs writtern by, well, fuck knows who. 

Any fans chanting "constant racial abuse" at such a game would make front page headlines. Now why don't you toddle off and find me a credible report from a grown up paper about this supposed 'racism'?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You'll recall, you also told me that hooliganism was essentially a thing of the past.


Could you be so kind as to reproduce that post where I make that claim?

Thanks awfully.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> FFS: and now you're reduced to repeating laughably ill-informed drivel from blogs writtern by, well, fuck knows who.



Why should I accept your word about what happened, over theirs?

I'm reading both on the internet.

The way I see it, everyone has their strengths. From what I've seen, you're very good at what you do, and you run a damn good bulletin board. Reports indicate that you're also a decent fellow.

But it doesn't follow from that, that you are necessarily a more exceptional or acute observer of the human condition, than anyone else. And as they say, ask ten witnesses to a car accident what happened, and you'll get ten different reports.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Could you be so kind as to reproduce that post where I make that claim?
> 
> Thanks awfully.



It's an impression I've taken from a number of discussions with you. If you want to find what you've said in those many posts, feel free to look at your own old posts. I don't have the time or inclination to do so.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Why should I accept your word about what happened, over theirs?


 So far you haven't produced a single scrap of evidence to back up your claim that racism was rife on the terraces of Cardiff City in the 90s. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

Yet still you persist in thinking that you know better than those people who were there. Why is that?


Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's an impression I've taken from a number of discussions with you. If you want to find what you've said in those many posts, feel free to look at your own old posts. I don't have the time or inclination to do so.


What another piss weak cop out, not that it's got anything to do with your racism claims.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Oh, and could you explain exactly why you posted up that link about the Wales vs Jamaica friendly game please?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Oh, and could you explain exactly why you posted up that link about the Wales vs Jamaica friendly game please?



Look at the larger context of the article if you're interested.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Anyway, what I think is this: racism was more prevalent toward the turn of the century in Cardiff and generally in football than you care to let on, and it was brave of you to publish the newsletter.

I doubt that either of us is going to change the other's mind.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Look at the larger context of the article if you're interested.


The article describes a group of black people going to Cardiff to watch Wales (not Cardiff) play an international friendly. 

They dressed up in loud Jamaican dress and according to the article they encountered no racism in the city and enjoyed a dance after.

Remind me how that supports your allegation that racism was rife on the terraces of Cardiff City in the 90s please, because your tale of black people enjoying a trip to Cardiff appears utterly irrelevant to me.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Anyway, what I think is this: racism was more prevalent toward the turn of the century in Cardiff and generally in football than you care to let on, and it was brave of you to publish the newsletter.


Some facts:

1. It wasn't a newsletter. It was a comic fanzine. 
2. Racism was _not_ rife on the terraces of Cardiff City in the 90s. 
3. There were, however, _some_ racists on the terraces, just like you'd find them in just about all aspects of society.
4. You haven't a clue what you're talking about on this subject (as proved by your comically random links and your failure to produce a single credible link)

I've no idea why you've embarked on another of your idiotic missions to display your ignorance all over these boards and attack something personally close to my heart, but it's getting a bit tedious now.

First you attack my Offline club for the most ridiculous of reasons, and now you're attacking my football club on an equally flimsy pretext.

But seeing as you have such trouble taking my word for anything these days, why not take a look around at both of those threads and see how much support you garnered from the community.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Cardiff is the least racist city in Britain.  Unless you're English.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> First you attack my Offline club for the most ridiculous of reasons, .



I didn't 'attack your offline club'. I was in disagreement with one particular occurrence, when I made the posts, as has been painfully or tediously explored ad nauseum by you and your group. This is a bb, I gave my opinion. If you don't like it, well.....

I talk about whatever, whenever. That's what happens on bbs. You should know, you run this one. If you personally feel wounded by the standard cut and thrust, you should stick with the admin side.

I find this tendency to whine about ill-perceived phantom 'personal attacks', to be an surprising revelation: I'd have taken you for many things, but a big baby, wasn't one of them.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> The article describes a group of black people going to Cardiff to watch Wales (not Cardiff) play an international friendly.
> 
> They dressed up in loud Jamaican dress and according to the article they encountered no racism in the city and enjoyed a dance after.
> 
> Remind me how that supports your allegation that racism was rife on the terraces of Cardiff City in the 90s please, because your tale of black people enjoying a trip to Cardiff appears utterly irrelevant to me.



The article talks about how [the name of the field] is daunting at a night game even for experienced fans, but that this group, and the woman speaking, felt safe because they were in a large group: something like 5000, as I recall.

It also made much about what it was like to see that many black people attending a soccer match, what with it being an unusual occurrence and all.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Cardiff is the least racist city in Britain.  .



That's often the case, for everyday transactions, in places where the people have had little or no exposure to the race in question. But I wasn't talking about Wales in general: the subject was the behaviour of fans at soccer games.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> I've no idea why you've embarked on another of your idiotic missions to display your ignorance all over these boards and attack something personally close to my heart, but it's getting a bit tedious now.
> 
> First you attack my Offline club for the most ridiculous of reasons, and now you're attacking my football club on an equally flimsy pretext..



For clarity's sake, my first post appears at 285, and was nothing about you. There are then 19 posts from me, mostly discussing with butchersapron and some others, before you stick your oar in [aside for one post about lyrics].

The discussion was going strong quite a while before you came in, and when you did, I answered you.

This paranoia you're displaying is a trifle bizarre.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Who have I accused of being racist?



Explicitly Dennis, the person you called a 'racist twat'. Implicitly, I would argue that you've pointed the finger at both BA and the Editor.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's often the case, for everyday transactions, in places where the people have had little or no exposure to the race in question. But I wasn't talking about Wales in general: the subject was the behaviour of fans at soccer games.



The ignorance of Cardiff's history displayed in your first sentence is shocking.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Explicitly Dennis, the person you called a 'racist twat'. Implicitly, I would argue that you've pointed the finger at both BA and the Editor.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Oh yeah: I forgot about dennisr.

The other two, no.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The ignorance of Cardiff's history displayed in your first sentence is shocking.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Don't be too shocked.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Don't be too shocked.



Then try to be either a bit better informed or a bit less sweeping.

Louis Macneice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Oh yeah: I forgot about dennisr.
> 
> The other two, no.



It would seem you chuck around accusations of racism fairly lightly then...which is nice.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It would seem you chuck around accusations of racism fairly lightly then...which is nice.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



I just call it like I see it.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 21, 2008)

See what? A badly chosen Googled page?

You clearly have no experience of the game or club in question - why you feel qualified to spout from such a position of absolute ignorance is beyond me.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I just call it like I see it.



Being shortsighted doesn't excuse you from being wrong; get some glasses.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

tarannau said:


> See what? A badly chosen Googled page?
> 
> You clearly have no experience of the game or club in question - why you feel qualified to spout from such a position of absolute ignorance is beyond me.



Who knows, eh?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Being shortsighted doesn't excuse you from being wrong; get some glasses.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



I already have some. I'll go to the optometrist on your recommendation though. It's been awhile.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't know why Johnny, I'm asking you. Seems a strange thing to play the smartarse from a relevant knowledge base of zero.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I don't know why Johnny, I'm asking you. Seems a strange thing to play the smartarse from a relevant knowledge base of zero.



It does, doesn't it?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 21, 2008)

Is this epic troll still going?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Is this epic troll still going?


It's all over now after Johnny's _killer_ arguments.

These include citing an account of a load of Jamaicans going to Wales on a rainy day to watch their national team play Wales. Dressed up to the nines in Jamaican colours, they went on to enjoy a nice evening's dancing afterwards with no suggestion of racism from a single person they met on their entire trip.

And if that evidence wasn't damning enough, he also  posted up a load of random links from Google covering several decades, all proving, err, that there is no compelling evidence of widespread racist activity at Cardiff City in the nineties.

Way to go Johnny!


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I also have to wonder why, if racism was a minor problem in Cardiff, you took the time to publish an anti racist newsletter.


So you think I should have just _ignored the problem_ when I encountered it rather than try to confront it, because it wasn't 'big' enough at the time?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It does, doesn't it?



Then why do it fella? I actually like some of your posts elsewhere, but these pathetic attempts at stirring things up by playing the ignoramus make me think much less fondly of you. You're Canadian, nor contrarian.


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 21, 2008)

Fuckin' ell! I'm leaving the West Ham thread and joinin this one instead!

This is the place to be, we'll have caught the Newcastle thread up in no time!!


----------



## tarannau (Oct 21, 2008)

You do realise that this thread is in a different forum though Cyber...


----------



## CyberRose (Oct 21, 2008)

tarannau said:


> You do realise that this thread is in a different forum though Cyber...


Yea but it's just as daft!

Actually the debates in the West Ham thread seem to be more thoroughly researched and articulated than some of the stuff written in here (not including anything kained&able has ever said)


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> Actually the debates in the West Ham thread seem to be more thoroughly researched and articulated than some of the stuff written in here...


I don't think that's much of a challenge, to be honest.

JC2's 'argument' is based entirely on his own prejudice about what those nasty sock-ah fans are like. Heck, I even explained it all two years ago:





editor said:


> ...the comic was set up in response to three racist lunkheads at Cardiff - the first I'd heard on the terraces for years - and the 70s Man character was my way of taking the piss out of them.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 21, 2008)

Why does the patronising twat keep telling me to go read a book when he's actually too stupid to read a single line post on the internet and understand anything it contains?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 21, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> Why does the patronising twat keep telling me to go read a book when he's actually too stupid to read a single line post on the internet and understand anything it contains?



That's the level of Johnny's so called 'debate'.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 21, 2008)

Anybody fancy a 9/11 party?


----------



## lights.out.london (Oct 21, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Anybody fancy a 9/11 party?



Ooh. 

JC2 - stick to hockey, mate.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Anybody fancy a 9/11 party?


There's Offline gigs coming right up on 13/11 and 14/11!


----------



## lights.out.london (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> There's Offline gigs coming right up on 13/11 and 14/11!





Show some bloody respect!


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

My memory is that racism on the terraces was on the way out in the 1990s, certainly from experience of watching Fulham in the late 70s and 80s goes, there was (occasionally) deeply unpleasant stuff being said/sung, but this diminished in the 90s until it is now unheard of I would say. Perhaps the 1991 law served to emphasize what people were already thinking anyway, i.e. of racism being unacceptable. That said, Fulham were never the worst offenders for that sort of thing; other clubs such as Ch*ls**, West Ham & Millwall had the worst reputations in London IMHO.

It is still the case, however, that notwithstanding black people's interest as fans and involvement as players (from schoolboy through to Sunday league level, and right up to the Premiership), the crowds at games are in my experience made up predominantly of white people, blokes mainly.

Is a live football game still perceived as an unwelcoming venue for black people, despite (as I would maintain) the near-eradication of racist songs/abuse?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> *My memory is that racism on the terraces was on the way out in the 1990s, certainly from experience of watching Fulham in the late 70s and 80s goes, there was (occasionally) deeply unpleasant stuff being said/sung, but this diminished in the 90s until it is now unheard of I would say. Perhaps the 1991 law served to emphasize what people were already thinking anyway, i.e. of racism being unacceptable. That said, Fulham were never the worst offenders for that sort of thing; other clubs such as Ch*ls**, West Ham & Millwall had the worst reputations in London IMHO.*
> 
> It is still the case, however, that notwithstanding black people's interest as fans and involvement as players (from schoolboy through to Sunday league level, and right up to the Premiership), the crowds at games are in my experience made up predominantly of white people, blokes mainly.
> 
> Is a live football game still perceived as an unwelcoming venue for black people, despite (as I would maintain) the near-eradication of racist songs/abuse?



I posted about my own experiences of Chelsea and Millwall earlier in the thread. It is true that some clubs had more of a reputation for it than others.

It seems though that the debate now is only focussing on what was or wasn't going on in Cardiff.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's often the case, for everyday transactions, in places where the people have had little or no exposure to the race in question. But I wasn't talking about Wales in general: the subject was the behaviour of fans at soccer games.



The ignorance of Welsh history displayed by your first sentence is profoundly disgraceful.  Cardiff really *is* the least racist city in Britain, precisely because the black community there is so old and well-established, dating as it does to the early nineteenth century.  Thus Cardiff has always been spared the race riots suffered by other large British cities.  And the attitude of the city's people is unsurprisingly reflected by its football supporters too.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> Why does the patronising twat keep telling me to go read a book when he's actually too stupid to read a single line post on the internet and understand anything it contains?



Perhaps he hopes thereby to encourage you to take action in belated alleviation of the astonishing ignorance that you daily display in public?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> The ignorance of Welsh history displayed by your first sentence is profoundly disgraceful.  Cardiff really *is* the least racist city in Britain, precisely because the black community there is so old and well-established, dating as it does to the early nineteenth century.  Thus Cardiff has always been spared the race riots suffered by other large British cities.  And the attitude of the city's people is unsurprisingly reflected by its football supporters too.



You're offering him an undeserved opening there Phil. Remember 1919.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> You're offering him an undeserved opening there Phil. Remember 1919.



Basically an extended brawl among ex-servicemen.  Certainly not comparable to what happened in most cities *except* Cardiff in the 80's.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Basically an extended brawl among ex-servicemen.  Certainly not comparable to what happened in most cities *except* Cardiff in the 80's.



Well, either way, i guess we're going to see him posting up a slew of reports from 90 years ago at some point tonight with an implied claim that nothing has changed...


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> You're offering him an undeserved opening there Phil. Remember 1919.


Cardiff's 1919 'race riot' isn't such a straightforward story.

Even before WW1, there was a stable multi cultural society in Cardiff, with a lot of intermarriage between whites and blacks, which rather suggests that the 'riot' was mainly the work of pissed off Empire soldiers who had effectively been dumped at the docks,  sometimes thousands of miles away from home. 



> Some problems were caused by demobilised soldiers from the Dominions, who were often left waiting in Britain for long periods until transport could be found to ship them home....
> 
> Demobilisation also exacerbated social tensions in various British ports. A series of ugly race riots took place in Liverpool and Cardiff during June 1919, as the local white population clashed with black workers and seamen, many of whom were left unemployed at the end of the war.
> 
> ...


Either way, it won't help JC2's claims of there being rampant racism on the CCFC terraces of the 90s, but at least it's more relevent than his bizarre tale of Jamaicans having a trouble-free beano in Cardiff ten years ago.


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> Perhaps he hopes thereby to encourage you to take action in belated alleviation of the astonishing ignorance that you daily display in public?



he was trolling and so are you


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Well, either way, i guess we're going to see him posting up a slew of reports from 90 years ago at some point tonight with an implied claim that nothing has changed...



You don't _understand_, butchers. You don't _know_.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> he was trolling and so are you


A charge that could be levelled against you considering the content of your five off-topic contributions to this thread thus far.

Two posts were having an unprovoked pop at a poster, two were to insist that it's all a 'troll' and the final post was a pointless smiley.

If you're incapable of adding anything intelligent or relevent, why bother?


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> A charge that could be levelled against you considering the content of your five off-topic contributions to this thread thus far.
> 
> Two posts were having an unprovoked pop at a poster, two were to insist that it's all a 'troll' and the final post was a pointless smiley.
> 
> If you're incapable of adding anything intelligent or relevent, why bother?




I have been reading this thread.. I don't believe Johnny is being sincere, sorry, I don't.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 21, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> he was trolling and so are you



Ooooh, watch out, _angel's_ patrolling the boards for trolls and brandishing her truncheon at all-comers.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> JC2's 'argument' is based entirely on his own prejudice about what those nasty sock-ah fans are like. Heck, I even explained it all two years ago:



So, you came across three lunkheads, and wrote that comic about them.

Which takes us back to the perplexing comment  by you, that you were 'putting your neck on the line', by coming out with an anti racist publication.

Er, how was this putting your neck on the line, again?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Heck, I even explained it all two years ago:



Well, until the 'Complete Thoughts of the Editor' comes out as a published work similar to the Bible, you'll have to excuse me if I haven't been hanging on your every word.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

I don't know, when I look at these figures, there's no way you can describe Wales or even Cardiff as a multiethnic or multicultural society, at least not by the ordinary meaning of the word.

http://83.137.212.42/sitearchive/cre/diversity/map/wales/index.html

There are 7000 black people in the whole country, according to the stats. Even if you put them all into Cardiff, at a population of 330,000, you're still only at 2%.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 21, 2008)

CyberRose said:


> Fuckin' ell! I'm leaving the West Ham thread and joinin this one instead!
> 
> This is the place to be, we'll have caught the Newcastle thread up in no time!!


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't know, when I look at these figures, there's no way you can describe Wales or even Cardiff as a multiethnic or multicultural society, at least not by the ordinary meaning of the word.
> 
> http://83.137.212.42/sitearchive/cre/diversity/map/wales/index.html
> 
> There are 7000 black people in the whole country, according to the stats. Even if you put them all into Cardiff, at a population of 330,000, you're still only at 2%.




As an aside, the Commission For Racial Equality (CRE) doesn't exist anymore. We now have the Commission for Equality and Human Rights, which incorporates the EOC, CRE and DRC into one body.

And that article is a couple of years old.

If you want to start backing up your claims you'd do better visiting the Office of National Statistics (ONS) or the relevant local authority's site.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's an impression I've taken from a number of discussions with you. If you want to find what you've said in those many posts, feel free to look at your own old posts. I don't have the time or inclination to do so.



But you're incapable of recognising any kind of nuance.  Nobody has ever said that hooliganism was wholly a thing of the past.  Sadly, it isn't.

What people _have_ disagreed with viz: hooliganism is your claim that _the main reason_ why people attend football in the UK is to have a punchup.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't know, when I look at these figures, there's no way you can describe Wales or even Cardiff as a multiethnic or multicultural society, at least not by the ordinary meaning of the word.
> 
> http://83.137.212.42/sitearchive/cre/diversity/map/wales/index.html
> 
> There are 7000 black people in the whole country, according to the stats. Even if you put them all into Cardiff, at a population of 330,000, you're still only at 2%.



From that link:



> Cardiff is Wales's capital city, and by far the most diverse place in the country.
> 
> Nearly 12% of its population of just over 300,000 are from ethnic groups other than White British, according to the 2001 Census.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Er, how was this putting your neck on the line, agaiin?


For the last time. Despite the complete absence of organised racist chanting on the terraces, it's highly likely that there might be some individual racists who might take objection to my 'zine. After all, you can find racists in all strands of society, and some have a reputation for being a little on the non-tolerant side.

And then there was the matter of the rumoured presence of a far right wing organisation at Cardiff, and the three racists I've already told you about.

I wrote a comic _taking the piss out of them and their attitudes._ And then sold it on the terraces. Face to face.

Now that I've answered your question in full, perhaps you might expain the significence of the trouble-free, racism-free beano enjoyed by some Jamaicans in Cardiff a decade ago?

They didn't see Cardiff play. They heard no racist chanting and by all accounts they had a nice night out afterwards too. So what was your point?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I don't know, when I look at these figures, there's no way you can describe Wales or even Cardiff as a multiethnic or multicultural society, at least not by the ordinary meaning of the word.


I don't think you even know what "Multi ethnic" means.

Perhaps this might help get it through to your increasingly obtuse head:





> For many black and Asian residents of Butetown born in Wales the origins of their family link with this once bustling coal port was the sea. They came from all over the world, from whereever Cardiff coal ships plied their trade and off-loaded their precious cargoes.
> 
> For over 150 years these trade-routes were open to any man who signed on to a Cardiff ship. In time many of these lone sailors settled in Butetown, exchanging their lodging house room for a small rented apartment or even a whole terraced house. They married Welsh (or English, or Irish) girls and made their significant contributions to the life of *Wales' first multi-ethnic community.*
> 
> ...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> As an aside, the Commission For Racial Equality (CRE) doesn't exist anymore. We now have the Commission for Equality and Human Rights, which incorporates the EOC, CRE and DRC into one body.
> 
> .



Are you suggesting that because the CRE has been disbanded, that their statistics are somehow doctored or incorrect?

As for the age of the report, we seem to be talking about the multiethnic history of Cardiff now, so a two year old report remains germane to the issue.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> What people _have_ disagreed with viz: hooliganism is your claim that _the main reason_ why people attend football in the UK is to have a punchup.



Whose post did you take that from: it certainly wasn't mine.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Perhaps this might help get it through to your increasingly obtuse head:



If you have something to say to me, say it without your snide insults; otherwise, fuck off. I'm not interested in talking with someone like that.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> As for the age of the report, we seem to be talking about the multiethnic history of Cardiff now, so a two year old report remains germane to the issue.


So now that you've finished telling us about all this rampant racism that happened on the terraces of Cardiff City in the 90s, you're now moving on to tell us that Cardiff didn't have a multi-ethnic society after all?

Terrific.


> Tiger Bay - Cardiff's dockland district - is Wales' oldest multi-ethnic community. Sailors and workers from over 50 countries settled here.
> 
> Some of the largest communities included the Somalis, the Yeminis and Greeks. Residents of many races and backgrounds socialised together and intermarried, creating a distinct community.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/tiger_bay.shtml









Read. And learn. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm sorry: 7000 black people in a country of 3 million, is not 'multiethnic', at least not in the modern world.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If you have something to say to me, say it without your snide insults; otherwise, fuck off. I'm not interested in talking with someone like that.


No need to get snotty.

Just a simple, "yes, you''re right. I've got it all hopelessly wrong about Cardiff and I was wrong to accuse you of lying on every page in this thread" will suffice.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> No need to get snotty.
> 
> Just a simple, "yes, you''re right. I've got it all hopelessly wrong about Cardiff and I was wrong to accuse you of lying on every page in this thread" will suffice.



One accusation I _will_ make, is that you seem unable to read english.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm sorry: 7000 black people in a country of 3 million, is not 'multiethnic', at least not in the modern world.


So Bute Town wasn't a multi ethnic community after all then, yes?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> One accusation I _will_ make, is that you seem unable to read english.


So, about this Jamaican trip to Cardiff....


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Are you suggesting that because the CRE has been disbanded, that their statistics are somehow doctored or incorrect?
> 
> As for the age of the report, we seem to be talking about the multiethnic history of Cardiff now, so a two year old report remains germane to the issue.



I mentioned it as an 'aside' because it was an 'aside'. I was giving you current information about the UK as you seemed unaware of how the equality body operates now here otherwise you would not have linked to that article and site as a current source.

You're either interested in finding out more, or not. It might well be that your interest is primarily in trying to prove your point rather than information gathering - but that's a matter for you.

I pointed you in the direction of sources of more detailed and current information, whether you utilise those is up to you.

Others have already commented on your analysis, so I'll pass on that aspect.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

And since we're clearing the air here:

You'll recall the bet on the  911 thread. It wasn't with you, but involved you, in a sort of referee or verification capacity.

The bet was that the Sept 11 party would be better attended than the usual or the average.

Once the party was over, you were asked how the attendance was, and your response was 'given the excellent entertainment lineup etc, the attendance was no greater than I expected it to be.'

A simple 'there were more people than usual' or 'there were less people than usual' would have sufficed, since no one was betting against what you expected or didn't expect.

Did you not understand that, or were you just unwilling to man up and admit what actually happened?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> So Bute Town wasn't a multi ethnic community after all then, yes?



Sure it was, in the same way that a Potemkin Village is, after all, a village.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

Leave it Johnny. Please.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> I mentioned it as an 'aside' because it was an 'aside'. I was giving you current information about the UK as you seemed unaware of how the equality body operates now here otherwise you would not have linked to that article and site as a current source..



I cited it for the statistics found there. I see nothing wrong with doing that, unless you have some evidence that the decommissioning of the CRE somehow invalidates all of the commission's findings.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I'm sorry: 7000 black people in a country of 3 million, is not 'multiethnic', at least not in the modern world.



The figure of 7,000 is artificially low, and does not take account of the fact that most "black" people in Cardiff are in fact mixed-race.  That fact is due to the age of the black community in Butetown: they have been there for so long and are so well-integrated that they often don't identify themselves as "black," or even look black.  You may know the soccer star Ryan Giggs for example, he is from Cardiff's black community although he looks as white as I do.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Sure it was, in the same way that a Potemkin Village is, after all, a village.



The oldest West Indian community in Europe is very far from a Potemkin village.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> The figure of 7,000 is artificially low, and does not take account of the fact that most "black" people in Cardiff are in fact mixed-race.  That fact is due to the age of the black community in Butetown: they have been there for so long and are so well-integrated that *they often don't identify themselves as "black," or even look black*.  You may know the soccer star Ryan Giggs for example, he is from Cardiff's black community although he looks as white as I do.




What's this, the 'octaroon' theory?

You know, back from US slavery days: even one eighth black blood made you black, and therefore still a slave?

They don't call themselves black, they aren't black in physical appearance, but to phil - they're still black.

It's the tarbrush, innit?


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I cited it for the statistics found there. I see nothing wrong with doing that, unless you have some evidence that the decommissioning of the CRE somehow invalidates all of the commission's findings.



You can selectively and partially quote my 'aside for info' post as much as you like for the purposes of your point as it's increasingly obvious that you're not interested in information here, no skin off my nose.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I cited it for the statistics found there. I see nothing wrong with doing that, unless you have some evidence that the decommissioning of the CRE somehow invalidates all of the commission's findings.



I've already pointed out one misuse you've made of those statistics in post 956.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> The oldest West Indian community in Europe is very far from a Potemkin village.



It's more about the size and the representativeness, than the age.

7000 blacks is about as many as you'd find in three square blocks on the South Side of Chicago.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> What's this, the 'octaroon' theory?
> 
> You know, back from US slavery days: even one eighth black blood made you black, and therefore still a slave?



You wot?  Not all black people were slaves, far from it.



Johnny Canuck2 said:


> They don't call themselves black, they aren't black in physical appearance, but to phil - they're still black.
> 
> It's the tarbrush, innit?



No, its the culture.  As is all "blackness," and indeed all "race."  Race is a cultural concept not a biological one.  And Cardiff most certainly has a multicultural culture, indeed the oldest such culture in the UK.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's more about the size and the representativeness, than the age.
> 
> 7000 blacks is about as many as you'd find in three square blocks on the South Side of Chicago.



There are far more than 7000 black people in Cardiff, as you would define them in Canada.  The definition used in the UK is different.  In the UK, generally speaking, if you don't look black, you're not black.  As you know, that is not the case in America.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny, again I start to lose track of what your point is here.

UK racism? Welsh racism? Cardiff racism? Football racism?

C'mon man, what are you trying to prove?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> You can selectively and partially quote my 'aside for info' post as much as you like for the purposes of your point as it's increasingly obvious that you're not interested in information here, no skin off my nose.



The article says Wales is the least ethnically diverse country in Britain, behind Scotland etc. It says something like 97.8% of the residents, are white.

Have things changed drastically? I'd be prepared to review the figures in the article you're about to cite.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Johnny, again I start to lose track of what your point is here.
> 
> UK racism? Welsh racism? Cardiff racism? Football racism?
> 
> C'mon man, what are you trying to prove?



The editor called me some name or other for saying that Welsh people are white. We've been going from there.

You could read the thread: it's all there.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The article says Wales is the least ethnically diverse country in Britain, behind Scotland etc. It says something like 97.8% of the residents, are white.




But it also says that 12% of the population of Cardiff is non-white, and it was Cardiff we were discussing.  In addition, the 12% figure is far too low.  If you walk the streets of Canton or Riverside, you would say it was more like 70-80%.  Which would also be a false impression, but my point is that Cardiff has a multi-racial ambience: it *feels* like a multi-cultural city.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> There are far more than 7000 black people in Cardiff, as you would define them in Canada.  The definition used in the UK is different.  In the UK, generally speaking, if you don't look black, you're not black.  As you know, that is not the case in America.



Now you're contradicting what you just said. A minute ago, you were saying that Welsh people who don't think of themselves as black, and who don't look black, are to be included in the Welsh black community.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> But it also says that 12% of the population of Cardiff is non-white, and it was Cardiff we were discussing.  In addition, the 12% figure is far too low.  If you walk the streets of Canton or Riverside, you would say it was more like 70-80%.  Which would also be a false impression, but my point is that Cardiff has a multi-racial ambience: it *feels* like a multi-cultural city.





> White   2,841,505  97.8%




.............


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> There are far more than 7000 black people in Cardiff, as you would define them in Canada.  The definition used in the UK is different.  In the UK, generally speaking, if you don't look black, you're not black.  As you know, that is not the case in America.



Also, lots of people don't even bother filling in the ethnic questionnaires because they (a) find it intrusive (b) consider their self definition isn't reflected in the questionnaire (c) whilst it's useful, it's not compulsory, and there's no history here of proving provenance unlike one-drop legislation and mindset America style.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Now you're contradicting what you just said. A minute ago, you were saying that Welsh people who don't think of themselves as black, and who don't look black, are to be included in the Welsh black community.



I'm saying that if they were in America they would be included in the black community.  If you fail to take that fact into account you will form a false impression of Wales's ethnic composition.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Looks like Sweden is more ethnically diverse than Wales:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52672-2004Oct21.html


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

It's piss poor frankly, pretending that Wales = Cardiff and so using the stats from one when discussing the other. It's even worse when you're supposed to be talking about levels of multi-ethnicity to simply ignore the largest ethnic minority (asian) and reduce this to bi-ethnicity (black and whiote alone). It's pathetically sneaky and it's utterly dishonest.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Looks like Sweden is more ethnically diverse than Wales:
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52672-2004Oct21.html



Have you visited Sweden?

Actually, have you visited Cardiff?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Looks like Sweden is more ethnically diverse than Wales:
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52672-2004Oct21.html





> Almost 12 percent of the roughly 9 million people living in Sweden as of this summer were foreign-born, government statistics show.





> Cardiff is Wales's capital city, and by far the most diverse place in the country.
> 
> Nearly 12% of its population of just over 300,000 are from ethnic groups other than White British, according to the 2001 Census.


.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> Leave it Johnny. Please.



Don't panic Scalyboy....I read and quoted your post. It was after all more on topic as it talked about your experiences of racism in football generally during the nineties. As I said before this thread has become specifically about Cardiff. Yes it's the capital of Wales, no surprising that it is the most diverserve place in Wales. Ermmmmmm.....



> My memory is that racism on the terraces was on the way out in the 1990s, certainly from experience of watching Fulham in the late 70s and 80s goes, there was (occasionally) deeply unpleasant stuff being said/sung, but this diminished in the 90s until it is now unheard of I would say. Perhaps the 1991 law served to emphasize what people were already thinking anyway, i.e. of racism being unacceptable. That said, Fulham were never the worst offenders for that sort of thing; other clubs such as Ch*ls**, West Ham & Millwall had the worst reputations in London IMHO.
> 
> It is still the case, however, that notwithstanding black people's interest as fans and involvement as players (from schoolboy through to Sunday league level, and right up to the Premiership), the crowds at games are in my experience made up predominantly of white people, blokes mainly.
> 
> Is a live football game still perceived as an unwelcoming venue for black people, despite (as I would maintain) the near-eradication of racist songs/abuse?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The editor called me some name or other for saying that Welsh people are white. We've been going from there.


Yes. You claimed that the Welsh are *only* white people. That is wrong and racist, as I promptly proved and illustrated.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Yes. You claimed that the Welsh are *only* white people. That is wrong and *racist*, as I promptly proved and illustrated.



Come on Ed, surely 'ignorant' is the word. You proved his assumption wrong.

What he said is different to saying _'black people can't be Welsh'_ for example.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> You wot?  Not all black people were slaves, far from it.



True enough. For instance, the ones able to escape to Canada via the Underground Railway, weren't slaves.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> No, its the culture.  As is all "blackness," and indeed all "race."  Race is a cultural concept not a biological one.  And Cardiff most certainly has a multicultural culture, indeed the oldest such culture in the UK.



Quite possibly. Which is why I've been careful to use the term 'multiethnic'.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Whose post did you take that from: it certainly wasn't mine.



It certainly was.  Not that long ago either.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The bet was that the Sept 11 party would be better attended than the usual or the average.


There is no 'usual' or 'average' attendance at Offline. 

Sometimes it's very busy, other times it's not quite so busy, and that's down to a load of factors including the time of the year, the line up, whether there's other events nearby, if the bands are local, how many people are on holiday and how much press it's received in advance.

The  fact that it was Sept 11th - or that you were busy making a total arse of yourself with your ill-informed rant about me intentionally choosing the date because of its significance - had the slightest influence.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> No, its the culture.  As is all "blackness," and indeed all "race."  Race is a cultural concept not a biological one.  And Cardiff most certainly has a multicultural culture, _indeed the oldest such culture in the UK_.



More so than London?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Quite possibly. Which is why I've been careful to use the term 'multiethnic'.



...and to _cut out_ all other ethnicities (including the largest minority ethnicity) to make your point. Bizzare.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> .



...and to finish the paragraph in the article:



> But according to the latest figures, about 7 percent of the population comes from outside Europe, most of them nonwhite.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Quite possibly. Which is why I've been careful to use the term 'multiethnic'.


Cardiff is Wales' oldest multi-ethnic community. And that's the BBC's words.

But if you're having trouble with the words, try some pictures instead:








> Down the Bay is a study of photographs taken in 1950 by Bert Hardy, the legendary Picture Post photographer. Taken in the Tiger Bay community in Cardiff, these photographs are one of the first serious attempts to provide a sympathetic portrait – free of negative and romantic stereotypes – *of everyday life in multi-ethnic Britain. *
> 
> The images are strong, beautiful and empathetic: the wrinkled face of an old West Indian man, who immigrated to Britain in the 1800s, stares into distance; an Arab man in a fur cap stops his bicycle to chat with a woman in the neighbourhood square; men and women jitterbug in a local church hall, seemingly oblivious to differences of race; a father lovingly wipes his little daughter’s chin; two boys throw stones into the canal while three young girls run along the bank; a group of men engage in illegal gambling on the street corner as one of them spots the photographer; an old man pays a visit to his ill friend; three young boys shoot marbles in the street; four well-groomed Somalis in suits and ties sit drinking coffee or tea; and so on.
> 
> ...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Yes. You claimed that the Welsh are *only* white people. That is wrong and racist, as I promptly proved and illustrated.



I think what I said was 'welsh means white'. I don't really want to go back and sift through the posts. Yes, there are exceptions, but at 98%, it's pretty safe to assume that a welshman will also be a whiteman/woman.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> There is no 'usual' or 'average' attendance at Offline.
> 
> Sometimes it's very busy, other times it's not quite so busy, and that's down to a load of factors including the time of the year, the line up, whether there's other events nearby, if the bands are local, how many people are on holiday and how much press it's received in advance.
> 
> The  fact that it was Sept 11th - or that you were busy making a total arse of yourself with your ill-informed rant about me intentionally choosing the date because of its significance - had the slightest influence.



Yes, there is an average attendance. The way it's figured is, you take the attendance figures from each night during the year. If there's one a month, you'll be adding up the numbers from 12 events. Then you divide that number by 12. That will give you the average attendance for that year.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I think what I said was 'welsh means white'. I don't really want to go back and sift through the posts. Yes, there are exceptions, but at 98%, it's pretty safe to assume that a welshman will also be a whiteman/woman.



You know that saying 'Welsh means white' and that a welshman is most likely to be white are not at all the same things...of course you do; so why try to move seemlessly from one to the other?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I think what I said was 'welsh means white'. I don't really want to go back and sift through the posts. Yes, there are exceptions, but at 98%, it's pretty safe to assume that a welshman will also be a whiteman/woman.


You said the "Welsh were white." 

I'd imagine that's rather offensive to to some non-white Welsh people - the people you think don't exist. 

Still, it's interesting to note that in your world minorities can be discounted and ignored.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, there is an average attendance. The way it's figured is, you take the attendance figures from each night during the year. If there's one a month, you'll be adding up the numbers from 12 events. Then you divide that number by 12. That will give you the average attendance for that year.


Is there a point to this?

If so, please spit it out.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> ...and to _cut out_ all other ethnicities (including the largest minority ethnicity) to make your point. Bizzare.



Any way you slice it, 98.7% of the population is white. Or was a couple of years ago. It might be different now, but no one has cited me any statistics that say it's different.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Is there a point to this?
> 
> If so, please spit it out.



Ah, you just said there 'is no average attendance'. Since it's a mathematical calculation that can be performed for any string of events, there is indeed an average attendance.

That's the point.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Any way you slice it, 98.7% of the population is white. Or was a couple of years ago. It might be different now, but no one has cited me any statistics that say it's different.



You explicitly talked about _multi-ethnicity in Cardiff_ then proceeded to ignore the largest ethnic minority in cardiff as it undermined your argument.
952



> There are 7000 black people in the whole country, according to the stats. Even if you put them all into Cardiff, at a population of 330,000, you're still only at 2%



Yet you ignored the link from your own link that says:



> Cardiff is Wales's capital city, and by far the most diverse place in the country. Nearly 12% of its population of just over 300,000 are from ethnic groups other than White British, according to the 2001 Census.



It's just more of your blatent misuse of sources and stats.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Cardiff is Wales' oldest multi-ethnic community. And that's the BBC's words.
> 
> But if you're having trouble with the words, try some pictures instead:



Here is a picture of a black cowboy from the American West:


----------



## Belushi (Oct 21, 2008)

96% of the Welsh population described themselves as White British in the last census, got to be higher in Cardiff (and lower in places like my valley)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/commentaries/ethnicity.asp


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Still, it's interesting to note that in your world minorities can be discounted and ignored.



That's right. I can't even see them.

Which makes it hard to brush my hair in the morning. I look in the mirror, and - no reflection.


----------



## _float_ (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Here is a picture of a black cowboy from the American West:


I can see the picture.

What point are you making?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

_float_ said:


> I can see the picture.
> 
> What point are you making?



Just hold on: I'll find a crayon and connect the dots for you...... just a minute....


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Any way you slice it, 98.7% of the population is white. Or was a couple of years ago. It might be different now, but no one has cited me any statistics that say it's different.


So is Cardiff multi ethnic or not?

And what about this jolly by Jamaicans coming up to Cardiff? What was the point you were making there in relation to supposed racism at Cardiff City?


----------



## _pH_ (Oct 21, 2008)

many aeons ago in this thread, there was a question regarding how judas died. fwiw, _Cercis siliquastrum_ is known as the Judas Tree, as it's reputed to be the one from which Judas hanged himself. Just for information like.

You can carry on fighting now.

As you were


----------



## Dillinger4 (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Just hold on: I'll find a crayon and connect the dots for you...... just a minute....



The big picture, after JC2 has joined all the dots.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

I think I preferred the '9/11 Offline' thread


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> And what about this jolly by Jamaicans coming up to Cardiff? What was the point you were making there in relation to supposed racism at Cardiff City?



To quote Perry Mason: "Asked and answered."


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> So is Cardiff multi ethnic or not?



Are individuals from more than one ethnic group present there? Apparently yes.

Is it a 'multiethnic society' as that term is used in the modern world? Based on the statistics, it doesn't sound much like it.

London is multiethnic. Paris is multiethnic. Vancouver is multiethnic.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

Japan has non ethnic japanese inhabitants, including Koreans and the Ainu.

But most people would consider it a misnomer to refer to Japan as a 'multiethnic society'.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

cesare;8218908]Actually said:


> To quote Perry Mason: "Asked and answered."


No you haven't answered my question at all.

You linked to that article as part of your 12 Bore link assault on  Google when you were desperately scrambling around looking for something to back up your assertion that racism was rife on the Cardiff City terraces in the 90s.

That article neither mentions Cardiff City or racism - it's  about a load of Jamaicans dressed up to the nines in their country's colours walking around Cardiff city centre and enjoying a night out.

With no racism. And no trouble. So, again, how does it back up your claims about racism at Cardiff City?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> .No you haven't answered my question at all.



TBF Ed, he has.



Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Are individuals from more than one ethnic group present there? Apparently yes.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But most people would consider it a misnomer to refer to Japan as a 'multiethnic society'.


Cardiff is a multi ethnic society, whether you think so or not, and regardless of you continuing to ignore links posted up informing you of the fact.

Your sly twist of focus from Cardiff to Wales has been noted too. Your original claim was about widespread racism at _Cardiff City_ in the nineties where you insisted you knew better than those people who were there. 

So far you've failed miserably to support that claim.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> You linked to that article as part of your 12 Bore link assault on  Google when you were desperately scrambling around looking for something to back up your assertion that racism was rife on the Cardiff City terraces in the 90s.
> 
> That article neither mentions Cardiff City or racism - it's  about a load of Jamaicans dressed up to the nines in their country's colours walking around Cardiff city centre and enjoying a night out.
> 
> With no racism. And no trouble. So, again, how does it back up your claims about racism at Cardiff City?



If you read a bit earlier, he does actually admit to the rather tenuous point he's making - which is that if you were wrong about there not being much hooliganism in the UK, you must be wrong about there not being much racism at football either...


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> TBF Ed, he has.


That makes no sense. I'm asking about the Jamaican beano.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> If you read a bit earlier, he does actually admit to the rather tenuous point he's making - which is that if you were wrong about there not being much hooliganism in the UK, you must be wrong about there not being much racism at football either...


What?

Have you any idea where I've been proved "wrong" about any statements I may have made about hooliganism in British football?

Or are you falling for JC2's common tactic of endless bluster and topic shifting to avoid admitting he's wrong?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

You asked...



editor said:


> So is Cardiff multi ethnic or not?


He answered....


Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Are individuals from more than one ethnic group present there? Apparently yes.





Why has this become only about Cardiff anyway?

Scalyboy posted a relevant post earlier that has been ignored.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> That makes no sense. I'm asking about the Jamaican beano.



So some Jamacians had a good time which was racism free....happened all the time all over Ed, doesn't prove that racism didn't exist.

I can see why you have taken these points on but I don't think this thread should be about YOUR experiences in Cardiff or Johnny being misinformed.

Other people have made relevant points about their experiences of football and racism which are being ignored.

...and let us not forget the original point....was Judas hanged from a tree or not.

Oh look...ph not long ago posted on this matter...





> many aeons ago in this thread, there was a question regarding how judas died. fwiw, Cercis siliquastrum is known as the Judas Tree, as it's reputed to be the one from which Judas hanged himself. Just for information like.
> 
> You can carry on fighting now.
> 
> As you were


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Why has this become only about Cardiff anyway?.


I was trying to get JC2 to either back up or withdraw the claims he made about Cardiff City's widespread racism in the 90s.

So there's no need for you to pipe up unless you have something to add to that discussion.


----------



## _pH_ (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> That makes no sense. I'm asking about the Jamaican beano.



rasta dennis the menace?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> So some Jamacians had a good time which was racism free....happened all the time all over Ed, doesn't prove that racism didn't exist.


Oh for fuck's sake.  Read the thread properly or don't bother.

At no point ever have I claimed that "racism doesn't exist." Never. Ever. Not once. You made that up.

Jeez...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> I was trying to get JC2 to either back up or withdraw the claims he made about Cardiff City's widespread racism in the 90s.


Which you've proved he can't do! And?


> So there's _no need for you to pipe up _unless you have something to add to that discussion.



No need? That is for me to decide I think.  My post, my choice.

I wasn't having a go at you, I was making a general point.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Oh for fuck's sake.  Read the thread properly or don't bother.
> 
> At no point ever have I claimed that "racism doesn't exist." Never. Ever. Not once. You made that up.
> 
> Jeez...



I know you haven't!

You have made your point very well.

My point is that to keep going back to the 'jamacian' story is unneccesary because it actually doesn't prove you point!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

_pH_ said:


> rasta dennis the menace?


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Which you've proved he can't do! And?
> 
> 
> No need? That is for me to decide I think.  My post, my choice.
> ...


I think you'd have to grow a whole new species of tree with seven dimensions to illustrate just how much of the wrong end of the stick you've got here.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Your sly twist of focus from Cardiff to Wales has been noted too. So far you've failed miserably to support that claim.



I thought the original contention point was my comment that 'welsh meant white'. 'Welsh' I think refers to the inhabitants of Wales.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> What?
> 
> Have you any idea where I've been proved "wrong" about any statements I may have made about hooliganism in British football?
> 
> Or are you falling for JC2's common tactic of endless bluster and topic shifting to avoid admitting he's wrong?



Sorry - I meant in JC2's eyes...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> I think you'd have to grow a whole new species of tree with seven dimensions to illustrate just how much of the wrong end of the stick you've got here.



I've read the thread Ed.

I can see the point you have made, over and over again.

I can also hear Al kuhal cackling to himself.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I thought the original contention point was my comment that 'welsh meant white'. 'Welsh' I think refers to the inhabitants of Wales.


Welcome to Johnny's twisty zone.

No matter how you spin it - whether it's Welsh born, Welsh adopted or Welsh resident - your claim that "Wales is white" remains ignorant and/or racist.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Or are you falling for JC2's common tactic of endless bluster and topic shifting to avoid admitting he's wrong?




You mean, like your inability to be forthcoming about the attendance at the party?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> Welcome to Johnny's twisty zone.
> 
> No matter how you spin it - whether it's Welsh born, Welsh adopted or Welsh resident - your claim that "Wales is white" remains ignorant and/or racist.



'Welsh means 98% white'.

Good enough.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Why has this become only about Cardiff anyway?
> 
> Scalyboy posted a relevant post earlier that has been ignored.



So did you, Rutita1, many posts ago, on your experiences at Millwall, very interesting - if disturbing - it was and all...but that seemed to get ignored as well 

*last-ditch attempt to alter direction of thread follows*

Personally, whenever I hear about current instances of racism (e.g. Spain recently, mass abuse directed at black players from English club sides/the national side, or sometimes games against Eastern Europe sides) it reminds me of how bad things used to be in this country. The 'bad old days' when mass racist chanting etc was par for the course at many football grounds.

In a funny way it makes me feel quite proud that we are more 'advanced' and enlightened than other countries, in this respect... 

Christ knows there is so much wrong with Britain (teenage pregnancy, drink/ drug problems, violence, class inequality, poverty etc etc) compared with other European countries, that it is good to think we are ahead of the game in one respect!

Or am I fooling myself?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> So did you, Rutita1, many posts ago, on your experiences at Millwall, very interesting - if disturbing - it was and all...but that seemed to get ignored as well
> 
> *last-ditch attempt to alter direction of thread follows*
> 
> Personally, whenever I hear about current instances of racism (e.g. Spain recently, mass abuse directed at black players from English club sides/the national side, or sometimes games against Eastern Europe sides) it reminds me of how bad things used to be in this country. The 'bad old days' when mass racist chanting etc was par for the course at many football grounds.


Me too. Although my experiences were also at Chelsea. As I pointed out though, some clubs had a bigger reputation for this than others.

I also have other memories of conversations and news reports about the problems of racism in football although I can't pin them down to a year.



> In a funny way it makes me feel quite proud that we are more 'advanced' and enlightened than other countries, in this respect...


Me too. This though is very much to do with recent and relevant history in terms of government, religion and immigration etc...


> Christ knows there is so much wrong with Britain (teenage pregnancy, drink/ drug problems, violence, class inequality, poverty etc etc) compared with other European countries, that it is good to think we are ahead of the game in one respect!
> 
> Or am I fooling myself?


 No IME, we are doing well in some areas and failing miserably in others.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You mean, like your inability to be forthcoming about the attendance at the party?


I've no idea why I should be obliged to be "forthcoming" about the attendance at Offline, neither have I the faintest idea what your point is.

I don't count people at the club - never have - but there's lots of photos you can study if you like. I'd say it was busier than some nights but not as busy as others, fwiw. 

But what is the point of this by the way? Are you suggesting that your ridiculous accusation that I planned for the club's regular date to fall on Sept 11th and somehow I benefited from it?

Is that what you're on about?





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> 'Welsh means 98% white'.


No matter how much you keep broadening the brush, the fact will remain that Cardiff has a long established and well recognised multi ethnic society and by exposing your ignorance on this matter, you've sold yourself short.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Me too. Although my experiences were also at Chelsea. I also have other memories of conversations and news reports about the problems of racism in football.
> ...
> No IME, we are doing well in some areas and failing miserably in others.



Yes. I still find it quite a shock to see how few black faces there are at football crowds - despite the 1991 law, despite overt racism having become socially unacceptable, despite the 'kick racism out of football' campaign, seems that black people would not feel comfortable attending a football game.

Last time I was at Fulham, I was struck by the contrast between the numbers of black players on the pitch, the numbers of black or non-white stewards, and the 99% white crowd  

What can be done?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> So did you, Rutita1, many posts ago, on your experiences at Millwall, very interesting - if disturbing - it was and all...but that seemed to get ignored as well :



I read Rutita's comments about her time working at the stadium with interest, and they in fact helped fuel my comments that followed.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny, what's the situation in Canada regarding fans at sporting events? Do the crowds at - say, a hockey game - reflect the ethnic composition of the cities concerned, or Canana as a whole?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> Yes. I still find it quite a shock to see how few black faces there are at football crowds - despite the 1991 law, despite overt racism having become socially unacceptable, despite the 'kick racism out of football' campaign, seems that black people would not feel comfortable attending a football game.


Interesting though isn't it, that in the Caribbean and Africa and in Asia, local and national teams have an abundance of support. It may then have something to do with assimalation into long standing institutions or the fact they have created identities and social past times elsewhere.



> Last time I was at Fulham, I was struck by the contrast between the numbers of black players on the pitch, the numbers of black or non-white stewards, and the 99% white crowd


Were you aware for any particular reason? I mean was it just a random observation?



> What can be done?


 I'm not sure. A few years ago, I  worked as a teacher of non-English (as it happens non-white) players in a football club, they never taled about _race_ as an issue facing them, but did have to deal with issues because of ideas about the prevalence of _foreign _players in English teams.
and they didn't express


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> I've no idea why I should be obliged to be "forthcoming" about the attendance at Offline, neither have I the faintest idea what your point is.



Well for one thing, you're expecting me to honour a $50 bet. It would be nice to know that I'm coughing up money because I actually lost the bet. Your weaseling on the subject leaves everyone in the dark.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> But what is the point of this by the way? Are you suggesting that your ridiculous accusation that I planned for the club's regular date to fall on Sept 11th and somehow I benefited from it?
> 
> Is that what you're on about?




No. You have a short memory.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well for one thing, you're expecting me to honour a $50 bet. It would be nice to know that I'm coughing up money because I actually lost the bet. Your weaseling on the subject leaves everyone in the dark.


The bet had nothing to do with me, I wasn't involved in any way at all and I'm not even sure what it was about, so a little less of the "weaselling" stuff, if you don't mind.

I've already explained the factors that can influence a crowd at Offline. Sorry if you don't like the facts. Again.

But seeing as you've made it crystal clear in this thread that you often don't believe what I say, I would have thought it would have been prudent for you to elect an third party witness to your _all important_ bet.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> The bet had nothing to do with me, I wasn't involved in any way at all and I'm not even sure what it was about, so a little less of the "weaselling" stuff, if you don't mind..



The money was to go to the server fund: you must have had some knowledge of it, as you advised me of where to send the funds.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 21, 2008)

editor said:


> But seeing as you've made it crystal clear in this thread that you often don't believe what I say, I would have thought it would have been prudent for you to elect an third party witness to your _all important_ bet.



I think it was goldencitrone and myself. You _were_ the third party.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Interesting though isn't it, that in the Caribbean and Africa and in Asia, local and national teams have an abundance of support. It may then have something to do with assimalation into long standing institutions or the fact they have created identities and social past times elsewhere.



I suppose I was thinking along the lines that black people would not feel welcome or safe at a predominantly 'white' event such as a football game, perhaps because of past behaviour by fans. Would you agree?



Rutita1 said:


> Were you aware for any particular reason? I mean was it just a random observation?



No reason - I was just idly looking around and musing. Nothing much to see on the pitch, I must have got bored! (this can happen quite often at Fulham
 Other times I can remember looking out to the River Thames, seeing if I could spot any herons or cormorants  )


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> I suppose I was thinking along the lines that black people would not feel welcome or safe at a predominantly 'white' event such as a football game, perhaps because of past behaviour by fans. Would you agree?



It's a possibility yes and I can certainly imagine that for some the memories are still a barrier. But also my point was that they have built up other past times, social activities. I know that the weather is something that kept people off the terraces, not just Black people either. 

As for the youth, well I can see they have more options now in terms of which sports are accessible. 



> No reason - I was just idly looking around and musing. Nothing much to see on the pitch, I must have got bored! (this can happen quite often at Fulham


 The very few times I have ever been to football matches in a non-working role, I found myself more interested in the crowd. I have never been a fan of football though.


> Other times I can remember looking out to the River Thames, seeing if I could spot any herons or cormorants  )


A view of the Thames? My focus would have wandered there also.


----------



## editor (Oct 21, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I think it was goldencitrone and myself. You _were_ the third party.


But why would you trust me?

You've already made it clear that you think I'm in the habit of making things up and given your habit of announcing how things '_really_' are from afar, you'd only tell me that I was 'wrong' in my opinion about the head count.

Have you emailed since the gig to ask? No? Why ever not?!


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 21, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> A view of the Thames? My focus would have wandered there also.



Oh yes - Craven Cottage is a scenic, pretty little ground, with the park on one side and the Thames on another. Very atmospheric at evening games when the fog is coming in off the river! Partial compensation for the distinct lack of silverware over the years...?

I'm off to bed. Good night! No doubt this thread still be going in the morning...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2008)

scalyboy said:


> I'm off to bed. Good night!



Night!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> But why would you trust me?
> 
> You've already made it clear that you think I'm in the habit of making things up and given your habit of announcing how things '_really_' are from afar, you'd only tell me that I was 'wrong' in my opinion about the head count.
> 
> Have you emailed since the gig to ask? No? Why ever not?!



Why? Well, before all this waffling about the attendance, there was no real reason _not_ to trust you.

Btw, you've told us just today, for the first time, that you have never been in the habit of counting the number of attendees at the Offlines. Fair enough. But, the talk of this bet about the number of attendees at the Sept offline, has been going on since before the event actually occurred.

That being the case, why did you wait to today, to tell us that the bet could never be verified one way or another, since you don't count. You've said a number of other things about the attendance, but never that.

The whole thing would have been avoided if, two months ago, you'd said: "Don't bother. I don't count or take attendance, so there's no way to know if attendance is up or not at any particular night."

The omission of information can be just as misleading, as the inclusion of incorrect or untrue information.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 22, 2008)

a packet of crisps and a cheeky smile
Arsene wenger is a paedophile !


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That being the case, why did you wait to today, to tell us that the bet could never be verified one way or another, since you don't count. You've said a number of other things about the attendance, but never that.


Have you PM'd or emailed me to ask about the attendance since the event? Have you asked anyone else? And why are you completely ignoring my explanation for varying crowds at the event?


Al Kahul said:


> a packet of crisps and a cheeky smile
> Arsene wenger is a paedophile !


I think it might be time for you to say your goodbyes, sunshine.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2008)

Going back to an earlier strand of the discussion:

Homophobia in football faces red card

Peter Tatchell has joined the FA's anti-homophobia working group. 


> Tatchell said the FA had to take positive action. His idea: recruit half a dozen premiership players to appear in an "MTV-style" pop video speaking out against homophobia and racism and misogyny. "Show it on TV and at football grounds all over the country - the impact would be enormous," he told the meeting.



No, it wouldn't.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Peter Tatchell has joined the FA's anti-homophobia working group.
> 
> 
> No, it wouldn't.


I've always respected Tatchell's commitment and direct action approach even if I haven't particularly warmed to the guy, but that video idea is 100% fail.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 22, 2008)

'Does your boyfriend
Does your boyfriend 
Does your boyfriend know you're here?'

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 22, 2008)

Swiftly followed by:

'You're too ugly
You're too ugly
You're too ugly to be gay.'

Louis MacNeice


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Perhaps they should have an an anti-bestiality awareness video too because as Cardiff fans we're constantly being called sheepshaggers.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 22, 2008)

what editor ? Can't we report more offensive chants on this page ?  Or do we have to go through the pantomime of people pretending that  are always going to matches but have never heard  this one chanted.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 22, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> what editor ? Can't we report more offensive chants on this page ?  Or do we have to go through the pantomime of people pretending that  are always going to matches but have never heard  this one chanted.



Very poor...thought you were made of tougher stuff.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 22, 2008)

I reckon homophobia is probably a bigger issue in the game today.  And how likely is it to be, um, tackled?


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> what editor ? Can't we report more offensive chants on this page ?  Or do we have to go through the pantomime of people pretending that  are always going to matches but have never heard  this one chanted.


You're boring now.


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 22, 2008)

Then turn your attention elsewhere !


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> I reckon homophobia is probably a bigger issue in the game today.  And how likely is it to be, um, tackled?



How would you go about tackling it RD?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> How would you go about tackling it RD?



I refer you to my two previous posts.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

Fight fire with fire then?

Write chants to counter offensive chants?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Fight fire with fire then?
> 
> Write chants to counter offensive chants?



A humorous response from the fans themselves seems one way to go.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Fight fire with fire then?
> 
> Write chants to counter offensive chants?



That would be the sensible option

rather like liverpools reply to 'you what you what 

as "you 'eard  you 'eard"

but then sensible options aren't really that popular are they ?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

edit


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

edit


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2008)

Oh fuck off.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

edit


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2008)

I suggest that you check who the 'racist' post was aimed at. You seem to be totally unable to make a post on this thread without fucking up and making more than telling misatakes. It's really really odd.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Given that you're from Britain, I'll make the assumption that you don't know the racist connotation to the term 'sunshine'.


Well, you've certainly produced something that more than lives up to the thread's billing of an "absurd accusation of racism."

Quite desperate. And rather sad too. You used to be much better than this, Johnny.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I suggest that you check who the 'racist' post was aimed at. You seem to be totally unable to make a post on this thread without fucking up and making more than telling misatakes. It's really really odd.



For once, I'll agree with you. I opened the thread today expecting a fight, and when I saw that the first quote and response was from and about me, I assumed that the second was also.

Apologies all around.

But for future reference, 'sunshine' can be a racist term as applied to black people.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> Well, you've certainly produced something that more than lives up to the thread's billing of an "absurd accusation of racism."
> 
> Quite desperate. And rather sad too. You used to be much better than this, Johnny.



Well, we all have our off days. But butcher's was right. My criticism in this case was off base. Sorry.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But for future reference, 'sunshine' can be a racist term as applied to black people.


You're confused again.


> _Cassell's Dictionary of Slang_ has:
> 
> "*shine* _n._ (late 19C+) (US): a derog. term for a Black person. (the reflection of a blue-Black skin. As used in W.I. (West Indies) the term refers to someone with a very dark, smooth complexion and has no derog. connotations)"
> 
> ...


And for your further reading: Three page thread fails to find any racist connotations to the word 'sunshine'


----------



## Dan U (Oct 22, 2008)

so all those years my grandad was making a racist at me


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Dan U said:


> so all those years my grandad was making a racist at me


And the Super Furry Animals too! All rasssscists!     

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y5KWIR4WUWU


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> You're confused again.
> And for your further reading: Three page thread fails to find any racist connotations to the word 'sunshine'



You know how you're welsh, right? From Cardiff or somewhere? And you think I'm full of shit when I try to tell you about things to do with Cardiff?

Well, I'll tell you this. I'm not from Cardiff, but I'm black, and I've known of 'sunshine' as being a racist term, since I was six years old and it was used against me that way for the first time.

It might not be used the same way over there, but it is here.


----------



## tarannau (Oct 22, 2008)

Never been used over here as a racist term as far as I'm aware. If it is somehow, it's been done with subtlety and gone right over my head, probably obscured by much more blatant racist terms.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

> Cassell's Dictionary of Slang has:
> 
> "shine n. (late 19C+) (US): a derog. term for a Black person. (the reflection of a blue-Black skin. As used in W.I. (West Indies) the term refers to someone with a very dark, smooth complexion and has no derog. connotations)"
> 
> ...



Ah!!! This calls for a little bit of a  break.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Well, I'll tell you this. I'm not from Cardiff, but I'm black, and I've known of 'sunshine' as being a racist term, since I was six years old and it was used against me that way for the first time.


Sure. But can you find some references too please?


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> <snip>
> 
> But for future reference, 'sunshine' can be a racist term as applied to black people.



I've never heard that before, that's new to me. Not saying right or wrong, just new to me.

What's the origin? Where does that come from? 'Sunshine' doesn't denote anything here as far as I'm aware. What does it mean from where you are?

We've got port sunlight in the liverpool area, again ports play a major part for us as an island nation ... but it's still tenuous and I'm stretching it even then


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> I've never heard that before, that's new to me. Not saying right or wrong, just new to me.
> 
> What's the origin? Where does that come from? 'Sunshine' doesn't denote anything here as far as I'm aware. What does it mean from where you are?
> 
> We've got port sunlight in the liverpool area, again ports play a major part for us as an island nation ... but it's still tenuous and I'm stretching it even then



Maybe came from....(ED originally posted it)





> Cassell's Dictionary of Slang has:
> 
> "shine n. (late 19C+) (US): a derog. term for a Black person. (the reflection of a blue-Black skin. As used in W.I. (West Indies) the term refers to someone with a very dark, smooth complexion and has no derog. connotations)"
> 
> ...



Being a Brit I don't see Sunshine in that way at all. It is used as a term of endearment mostly. Although can be used in a patronising or condescending kind of way too.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> Sure. But can you find some references too please?



You know that advice you give? Give it a rest?


Give it a  rest.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> I've never heard that before, that's new to me. Not saying right or wrong, just new to me.
> 
> What's the origin? Where does that come from? :



I have no idea how it came into usage that way, and frankly, I don't care.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

My vague recollection is that it's related to the racist term 'midnight'. You can't see a black person standing there. It's like it's midnight.

Until he gives one of those big white toothy grins: sunshine!


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You know that advice you give? Give it a rest?
> 
> 
> Give it a  rest.


I can see a pattern developing here: 
1. Make claim
2. Refuse to back it up


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 22, 2008)

You are my sunshine, my only sunshine; you make me happy, when skies are grey.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> I can see a pattern developing here:
> 1. Make claim
> 2. Refuse to back it up



How long to you plan to keep up this 'battle of wit'?


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Maybe came from....(ED originally posted it)
> 
> Being a Brit I don't see Sunshine in that way at all. It is used as a term of endearment mostly. Although can be used in a patronising or condescending kind of way too.



Cheers x

I don't think it weighs much here? Sort of similar to pet, love etc. Can be patronising but for the most part a figure of speech?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> Sort of similar to pet, love etc. Can be patronising but for the most part a figure of speech?



Yeap, IME yes.


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I have no idea how it came into usage that way, and frankly, I don't care.



I care though.

And if you don't care, why bring it up in the first place?


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2;8224824]How long to you plan to keep up this 'battle of wit'?[/quote]Just so long as you keep on posting up ignorant bullshit about my club night said:


> I care though.
> 
> And if you don't care, why bring it up in the first place?


He's on a mission.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> Cheers x
> 
> I don't think it weighs much here? Sort of similar to pet, love etc. Can be patronising but for the most part a figure of speech?


If it causes offense, it'll have to go, though.

Oh.  That'll be sad; please don't take my 'sunshine' away!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Yeap, IME yes.



It's like over here, fanny means butt, and pants means trousers.

But people would stil laugh at me in London if I used those words that way.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 22, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> You are my sunshine, my only sunshine; you make me happy, when skies are grey.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's like over here, fanny means butt, and pants means trousers.
> 
> But people would stil laugh at me in London if I used those words that way.



Johnny, if you talked about your fanny over here you may well be laughed at, being as you are a man, and that here fanny means vagina.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Johnny, if you talked about your fanny over here you may well be laughed at, being as you are a man, and that here fanny means vagina.


I was explaining that recently to an American friend, as I sat on a dyke with a fag in my mouth.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Johnny, if you talked about your fanny over here you may well be laughed at, being as you are a man, and that here fanny means vagina.



Yes, sweets: that's the point. Over here, men can have a fanny.

Over here, 'sunshine' can be a racist term, whether it is in England or not.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> I was explaining that recently to an American friend, as I sat on a dyke with a fag in my mouth.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, sweets: that's the point.


Don't say "sweets", over here that's racist to Scots.


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's like over here, fanny means butt, and pants means trousers.


Yes. And that's very well documented, but no one seems to have heard of 'sunshine' being used a racist insult.

I'd hate to make an _international faux pas_ next time I'm over, so perhaps you could enlighten me and produce some sources explaining the apparently offensive nature of the word?


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's like over here, fanny means butt, and pants means trousers.
> 
> But people would stil laugh at me in London if I used those words that way.



Yes there's loads of terms in NA that are at cross purposes with those here. We realise that. So just explain the 'sunshine' thing so we know what you mean. It's not a big ask.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, sweets: that's the point. Over here, men can have a fanny.



I know.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You know how you're welsh, right? From Cardiff or somewhere? And you think I'm full of shit when I try to tell you about things to do with Cardiff?
> 
> Well, I'll tell you this. I'm not from Cardiff, but I'm black, and I've known of 'sunshine' as being a racist term, since I was six years old and it was used against me that way for the first time.
> 
> It might not be used the same way over there, but it is here.



Here, 'sunshine' has a rather similar ring to it as 'pal' does in the USA. As in, "Now look here, pal"...


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 22, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Maybe came from....(ED originally posted it)
> 
> Being a Brit I don't see Sunshine in that way at all. It is used as a term of endearment mostly. Although can be used in a patronising or condescending kind of way too.



I'd say more the latter tbh...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Here, 'sunshine' has a rather similar ring to it as 'pal' does in the USA. As in, "Now look here, pal"...



Over here, no one gets upset if you make jokes about the Irish Potato Famine.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> I'd say more the latter tbh...



Yeah I can hear stuff like...

'Now, look here sunshine....'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2008)

Anyway, my own little research has found debate about this in a north American context, most of which concludes that it is linked to the use of 'shine' as a descriptor.


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Over here, no one gets upset if you make jokes about the Irish Potato Famine.




Who the fuck cares what Canada thinks of the Irish?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> Yes. And that's very well documented, but no one seems to have heard of 'sunshine' being used a racist insult.
> 
> I'd hate to make an _international faux pas_ next time I'm over, so perhaps you could enlighten me and produce some sources explaining the apparently offensive nature of the word?



I already know what it means over here. If you want to keep from looking like a doofus when you visit NA, you might want to do your own research.

Failing that, do some on the scene research: next time you're in New York, go to a black section of town, and call a few black people 'sunshine', and record their reactions for posterity.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 22, 2008)

What about that dance, the "monkey shine?"  Is it a racist dance?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> Who the fuck cares what Canada thinks of the Irish?



Canada is a country, not a person. It doesn't have ideas etc.

I thought you were  a smart girl.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 22, 2008)

phildwyer said:


> What about that dance, the "monkey shine?"  Is it a racist dance?


  That's not a dance!  You made that up!


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

editor said:


> Just so long as you keep on posting up ignorant bullshit about my club night, my football club, my home city and now my supposed use of a racist word..



Well, you know me. If you don't stop, I certainly won't.

Does your football club ever win any games, btw?


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Canada is a country, not a person. It doesn't have ideas etc.
> 
> I thought you were  a smart girl.



You don't think I'm a smart girl. You spend lots of time telling me that I'm thick. And using that as a diversion from the topic. 

You've got no fucking interest in discussing it, all you want to do is score points. 

You're not interested in discussion.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> You don't think I'm a smart girl.


He was being patronising.  Go on; call him 'sunshine'.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> You don't think I'm a smart girl. You spend lots of time telling me that I'm thick. And using that as a diversion from the topic.
> 
> You've got no fucking interest in discussing it, all you want to do is score points.
> 
> You're not interested in discussion.



Well, I've  been told, haven't I?


P.s. I've never said you were thick. I might have said that some of your ideas are thickheaded, but that's an attack on the ideas, not on your overall worth as a person.

Come on, suck it up a little.


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> He was being patronising.  Go on; call him 'sunshine'.



He'd love that and we'd still not understand it.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> He'd love that and we'd still not understand it.


Darling might even be worth a try?


----------



## soulman (Oct 22, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I thought you were  a smart girl.



Whatever gave you that impression Johnny?


----------



## editor (Oct 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> You've got no fucking interest in discussing it, all you want to do is score points.
> 
> You're not interested in discussion.


That's how it sure looks to me.


Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I already know what it means over here. If you want to keep from looking like a doofus when you visit NA, you might want to do your own research.


I already have and can't find any references to 'sunshine' being a racist word. That's why I've asked you to provide some.

Argh! More racists! Fuck! They're everywhere!











And even Jimmy Cliff's at it!





> Hey there sunshine!
> Don't let me down
> Hey there sunshine!
> Please come around
> ...


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Oct 23, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> If it causes offense, it'll have to go, though.
> 
> Oh.  That'll be sad; please don't take my 'sunshine' away!



Groan... 

I've never heard "sunshine" used as a derogatory term for black people, but "shine" has a very chequered history. It's a term that might have long-since fallen into disuse, had it not been for the pop song by that name.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Over here, no one gets upset if you make jokes about the Irish Potato Famine.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> He was being patronising.  Go on; call him 'sunshine'.



And then, why not bring your family along, and we'll all go out for a chinky.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

soulman said:


> Whatever gave you that impression Johnny?



Oh. You again. Constantly following me around. Fantastic.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

editor said:


> That's how it sure looks to me.
> I already have and can't find any references to 'sunshine' being a racist word. That's why I've asked you to provide some.



It makes no matter if you accept it from me or not. Like I say, next time in NY, go to Harlem, and call some black people sunshine.

We'll see who's right: me, or your initial research.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It makes no matter if you accept it from me or not. Like I say, next time in NY, go to Harlem, and call some black people sunshine.
> 
> We'll see who's right: me, or your initial research.



Are you the world's receptacle of what is wrong or right to say globally?


----------



## soulman (Oct 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> Oh. You again. Constantly following me around. Fantastic.



You have no idea what the word constantly means do you thicko? I just catch you whenever anyone is getting a kicking on here. You come in late trying to get the last kick in like the coward you are.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

soulman said:


> You have no idea what the word constantly means do you thicko? I just catch you whenever anyone is getting a kicking on here. You come in late trying to get the last kick in like the coward you are.



Your stalking is on record


----------



## soulman (Oct 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> Your stalking is on record



What stalking, what record? These aren't your boards you fucking loon.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Groan...
> 
> I've never heard "sunshine" used as a derogatory term for black people, but "shine" has a very chequered history. It's a term that might have long-since fallen into disuse, had it not been for the pop song by that name.


 Yeah I tried to make this point earlier....


> Cassell's Dictionary of Slang has:
> 
> "shine n. (late 19C+) (US): a derog. term for a Black person. (the reflection of a blue-Black skin. As used in W.I. (West Indies) the term refers to someone with a very dark, smooth complexion and has no derog. connotations)"
> 
> ...





Rutita1 said:


> Ah!!! This calls for a little bit of a  break.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

soulman said:


> What stalking, what record? These aren't your boards you fucking loon.


pleasant.


----------



## soulman (Oct 23, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> pleasant.



It shouldn't be try to bring shit from other boards over to urban, then act likes it owns these boards. TBH it shouldn't be here at all.

Sweet.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Oct 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Yeah I tried to make this point earlier....



Sorry, I missed that.

I can understand Pops doing it and the Ry Cooder version (with introduction) quoted on Wiki makes sense... but Frankie Laine?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

soulman said:


> It shouldn't be try to bring shit from other boards over to urban, then act likes it owns these boards. TBH it shouldn't be here at all.
> 
> Sweet.


it=she? 

like said, pleasant....


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It makes no matter if you accept it from me or not. Like I say, next time in NY, go to Harlem, and call some black people sunshine.


So you made it up and can't find a single source to back up your 'racism' claim?

Glad that's settled.


----------



## soulman (Oct 23, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> it=she?
> 
> like said, pleasant....



I'll settle for it, given its record. Nasty little cowardly it.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

you sound a bit demented tbh.

in the nicest possible fashion.

like a lairy lord of the rings or summat.,.


----------



## soulman (Oct 23, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> you sound a bit demented tbh.
> 
> in the nicest possible fashion.
> 
> like a lairy lord of the rings or summat.,.



Sure. You know it then?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

?


----------



## soulman (Oct 23, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> ?



You're looking a bit fuddled there Paulie. Never mind eh.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

no, tell me more, tell me more, am all ears mate.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2008)

soulman said:


> You're looking a bit fuddled there Paulie. Never mind eh.


You, on the other hand, just look like a bit of a twat.


----------



## soulman (Oct 23, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You, on the other hand, just look like a bit of a twat.



Like it matters to me what you think, you idiot.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

you have anger management issues perhaps?

*counsellor-mode*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> you have anger management issues perhaps?
> 
> *counsellor-mode*



NO paulie...a person centered cousellor would use immediacy/challenge and say something like...

'I get the feeling you are upset...'


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

editor said:


> So you made it up and can't find a single source to back up your 'racism' claim?
> 
> Glad that's settled.



I was called 'sunshine' with racist intent for the first time when I was six years old. The people doing it, were a group of workers standing on a loading dock laughing and having a great time as I walked by. Sorry, not made up.

So I insist: go to Harlem and call some black people 'sunshine'. Not much I could do when I was six, but if you do it to adults and not children, the response might be different.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So I insist: go to Harlem and call some black people 'sunshine'. Not much I could do when I was six, but if you do it to adults and not children, the response might be different.


What a ridiculous suggestion, and it just about sums up the paucity of your argument here.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

editor said:


> What a ridiculous suggestion, and it just about sums up the paucity of your argument here.



Given the sensitivity of your comments here, you still expect me to believe that you ever lifted a finger to combat racism?

As they say in NYC getouddahere!


----------



## _float_ (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So I insist: go to Harlem and call some black people 'sunshine'. Not much I could do when I was six, but if you do it to adults and not children, the response might be different.


Why Harlem?


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 23, 2008)

I get called sunshine from time to time.  Kinda annoys me coz all I can think of is "blowing sunshine up my dress" or something and I  have no idea what that means 

I usually listen to the person saying it and if they are British or European or something, I let it go coz I put it down to how they speak.  If they are Canadian, I usually respond according to the situation.  But I let it known that sunshine is not an appropriate term when addressing me.  I don't wanna blow nothing up up anyones whatever.


----------



## Jessiedog (Oct 23, 2008)

Watch it, sunshine!




Woof


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 23, 2008)

Sunshine Anderson's parents must have had a pretty twisted sense of humor - as did the people who nicknamed Florida 'The Sunhine State'...


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 23, 2008)

K.C. should really start looking for a less offensive name for his 'Sunshine Band...'


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> And then, why not bring your family along, and we'll all go out for a chinky.


That's something I _never_ say.  Because I know it causes offence, and it's easy to see why.

But tenuous nonsense, usually second hand, about "offence" given by "nitty gritty" (that was in the press over here in recent times), "Muslims offended by Christmas trees" (again, a tabloid favourite, with nebulous origins), and now added to the list, I'm afraid, "sunshine"; those I'm less impressed by.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> That's something I _never_ say.  Because I know it causes offence, and it's easy to see why.
> 
> But tenuous nonsense, usually second hand, about "offence" given by "nitty gritty" (that was in the press over here in recent times), "Muslims offended by Christmas trees" (again, a tabloid favourite, with nebulous origins), and now added to the list, I'm afraid, "sunshine"; those I'm less impressed by.



No one's asking you to be impressed. All I know is my own experience.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> That's something I _never_ say.  Because I know it causes offence, and it's easy to see why.
> 
> But tenuous nonsense, usually second hand, about "offence" given by "nitty gritty" (that was in the press over here in recent times), "Muslims offended by Christmas trees" (again, a tabloid favourite, with nebulous origins), and now added to the list, I'm afraid, "sunshine"; those I'm less impressed by.



Racism can be very overt, or it can be very subtle. I can see how non-minorities might make fun of some of this, because if I wasn't a minority myself, it would be hard to comprehend the varied forms that it can take. It's sort of unbelievable, until you're right there with it happening.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Racism can be very overt, or it can be very subtle.


Absolutely.

It can also be non existent.  Like when the editor called you sunshine.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> It can also be non existent.  Like when the editor called you sunshine.



He didn't call me sunshine.

I realized that, but pointed out that it can be a term of racist abuse, depending how it's used. And that's the truth.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> depending how it's used


And here, sunshine, is the crux of the matter.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> And here, sunshine, is the crux of the matter.



So, if I tell you that I find the term offensive, but you don't, it's ok for you to use it with me?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

I suppose it means more to me because it was one of my earliest exposures to racism, but if you feel a need to score points, carry on.

It's pretty funny, but I have to wonder how someone who has a wife who's a member of a minority group, at least in your home country, really feels about jokingly employing racist terms?


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So, if I tell you that I find the term offensive, but you don't, it's ok for you to use it with me?



Depends if you're the only person in North America who still takes offence?

Judging by some of the current US usage you may actually be the only one.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Depends if you're the only person in North America who still takes offence?



But if I tell you, that it's offensive to me, is it ok to use it?


----------



## felixthecat (Oct 23, 2008)

Just checked with the OH (west indian) if he considered 'sunshine' a derogatory term.

Its not according to him - must be a specifically north american thing.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 23, 2008)

I can see where JC2 is coming from. There are words, with racist origins that I'd rather people didn't use in my prescence even in a jovial and/or ironic manner. The problem is, JC2, that you haven't been able to provide anything to explain the racist origins of the word you find offensive here. I mean, I could say I find "word" offensive, as it is a racist term and could people stop using it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But if I tell you, that it's offensive to me, is it ok to use it?



Morally (and just speaking for myself here) I wouldn't deliberately use a term that someone found offensive unless I was trying to offend. 

Legally though, over here the recipient decides on the offensiveness of a term *unless* it can be shown that they were overly sensitive and that the term concerned wouldn't normally cause offence.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 23, 2008)

cesare says "term". I'll allow it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> cesare says "term". I'll allow it.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 23, 2008)

This is something I don't think I've discussed with anyone in real life. My usual position wrt racism etc, is sort of the british 'stiff upper lip' thing. The good thing about the internet, is you can talk about these things.

But I'm done explaining about this for tonight.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But if I tell you, that it's offensive to me, is it ok to use it?



What if I tell you the term chair leg is offensive to me, is it ok to use it?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 23, 2008)

felixthecat said:


> Just checked with the OH (west indian) if he considered 'sunshine' a derogatory term.
> 
> Its not according to him - must be a specifically north american thing.



Could be a specifically north american thing, although the examples of its use in north america seem to raise some doubts.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> But if I tell you, that it's offensive to me, is it ok to use it?



Depends if you're on the wind up are feeling genuine offence then Johnny.

However, the boy who cried wolf too often theory certainly kicks in here.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So, if I tell you that I find the term offensive, but you don't, it's ok for you to use it with me?


I find your constant and wholly groundless accusations that I'm dishonest deeply offensive and have told you so several times, but still you continue with your unpleasant personal slurs and suggestions that I'm a liar. And look: here's your latest example from just today:





Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Given the sensitivity of your comments here, you still expect me to believe that you ever lifted a finger to combat racism?





Refused as fuck said:


> The problem is, JC2, that you haven't been able to provide anything to explain the racist origins of the word you find offensive here. I mean, I could say I find "word" offensive, as it is a racist term and could people stop using it.


Exactly. If it was such an offensive word there'd be ample documented evidence of its racist meanings on the web, but Johnny - a man not unacquainted with ruthlessly hammering Google - has failed to produce a single, solitary example.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 23, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So, if I tell you that I find the term offensive, but you don't, it's ok for you to use it with me?


The point I'm trying to make is this: if you're hanging out on a UK board you'll find that different words have different meanings.  

Suppose, by some quirk, I was from a part of the world where "neighbour" was a foul insult.  Then I visited Falkirk, a Scottish town where that is a standard greeting; it ends many a sentence.  I might at first be taken aback, but as I realised that no offence was meant; that it was an innocuous comment, I'd perhaps abandon any plan I had previously harboured to get them to give it up as a racial slur.

This is where you stand with "sunshine".


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> K.C. should really start looking for a less offensive name for his 'Sunshine Band...'



Well that depends...Which one is KC?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 23, 2008)

Wayne Casey (KC) is the white guy sitting down


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Hi Al, how are your other threads going? As successful as this one?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 23, 2008)

and the sunshine Band was named because they all came from South Florida


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Hi Al, how are your other threads going? As successful as this one?



this is certainly the longest so far


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

sunshine is now a racist term??? 

its pc gawn mad i tell ya......


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> sunshine is now a racist term???
> 
> its pc gawn mad i tell ya......



No, JC was talking about his experiences and that in a North American context it may be questionable.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> and the sunshine Band was named because they all came from South Florida



The Sunshine State?


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 23, 2008)

there's a lot of links relating to sunshine being racist, but they don't actually amount to much

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=su...avclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB253GB254


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> No, JC was talking about his experiences and that in a North American context it may be questionable.


so because someone may have called him '_sunshine_' once upon a time, it now means that anyone who utters the term again in canada must be a racist? seems a bit ott to me tbf.

_'it can be a term of racist abuse, depending how it's used' _- on that basis, any word at all meets a definition of potentially racist ffs. _petal, flower, sweetcheeks_, all racist depending on how they are used.....


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> sunshine is now a racist term???
> 
> its pc gawn mad i tell ya......



It's bintgate all over again!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

from jeff's links - _Anything you call anyone in a derogatory manner tends to create offense. That doesn't mean the term is widely offensive._


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> It's bintgate all over again!


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 23, 2008)

The problem with all this is that there's nothing worse than someone not affected by prejudice telling someone they can't be offended by something.

So if person X says "somebody called me Y and it caused deep offence", it's not really on for person Z to tell them they're wrong.

However, this excellent scientific formula does not work at all if X=JC2


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Yeap, saw that last night...

This was interesting though....and shows some people do agree with JC. (Before anyone says it I know in this context it was used to greet a crowd in the Sunshine state)

http://podblanc.com/obama-uses-ole-...greet-crowd-20-per-cent-negro-broward-county-


----------



## _angel_ (Oct 23, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> The problem with all this is that there's nothing worse than someone not affected by prejudice telling someone they can't be offended by something.
> 
> So if person X says "somebody called me Y and it caused deep offence", it's not really on for person Z to tell them they're wrong.
> 
> However, this excellent scientific formula does not work at all if X=JC2



Yep.

Maybe this really is a racist term in north america,     but it's not here.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> The problem with all this is that there's nothing worse than someone not affected by prejudice telling someone they can't be offended by something.
> 
> So if person X says "somebody called me Y and it caused deep offence", it's not really on for person Z to tell them they're wrong.
> 
> However, this excellent scientific formula does not work at all if X=JC2


Thing is, the person who I referred to as 'sunshine' voiced no objection, but JC2 thoughtfully took up the offence on his account, unprompted.

I hope he's not going to make a habit of this though because who knows what other obscure and innocuous sounding words he may unilaterally declare as being 'racist' next.


----------



## El Jefe (Oct 23, 2008)

editor said:


> Thing is, the person who I referred to as 'sunshine' voiced no objection, but JC2 thoughtfully took up the offence on his account, unprompted.



that was the point i was making


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

_angel_ said:


> Maybe this really is a racist term in north america,     but it's not here.


In which case there'd be ample evidence and references available online. Can you find any? Johnny certainly can't


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

Anyway, I suppose it's best not to call JC2 'sunshine' in future (edit: not that anyone did this time either  ) and perhaps bear it in mind for any other North American posters, it's no big deal really.

It'd be helpful if Johnny could furnish us with a list of the more obscure racist terms over there, for info like.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> there's a lot of links relating to sunshine being racist, but they don't actually amount to much
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=su...avclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enGB253GB254


Um, just about all of those links are people asking if there any racist connotations to be found in the word 'sunshine' and the answer is a fairly unequivocal 'no.'





cesare said:


> Anyway, I suppose it's best not to call JC2 'sunshine' in future and perhaps bear it in mind for any other North American posters, it's no big deal really.


I don't think anyone has called the delicate flower* 'sunshine' have they? I certainly haven't.


*apologies in advance if 'delicate flower' turns out to be another hitherto-unknown racist term.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 23, 2008)

there seems to be a real confusion between the ability to be offended by something and the capacity of being discriminated against here.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

editor said:


> Um, just about all of those links are people asking if there any racist connotations to be found in the word 'sunshine' and the answer is a fairly unequivocal 'no.'I don't think anyone has called the delicate flower* 'sunshine' have they? I certainly haven't.
> 
> 
> *apologies in advance if 'delicate flower' turns out to be another hitherto-unknown racist term.



TBF though Ed, that does prove it has been under discussion. Whether or not the majority of folk agree it is used in that way is another thing.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

editor said:


> 'I don't think anyone has called the delicate flower* 'sunshine' have they? I certainly haven't.
> 
> 
> *apologies in advance if 'delicate flower' turns out to be another hitherto-unknown racist term.



Yeah, I edited after you'd quoted me to make that clear


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> TBF though Ed, that does prove it has been under discussion. Whether or not the majority of folk agree it is used in that way is another thing.


Yes, but if you're going to accuse someone of throwing around a racist term, it's usually wise to check that it actually exists first.

Coming on the back of JC2 suggesting that I'd never 'ever lifted a finger to combat racism' and made up my earlier comments, I'm beginning to see what looks like a nasty little undercurrent being seeded.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Personally, I'm gonna settle for it being often used to patronise, sneer down at....Although i'm aware it can be used in a nuetral way too.

Found this that for me suggests it's used more like that over here and not in a racist way.



> *Their favourite was to call blacks "sunshine"* and follow up with a string of other abuses: nig-nog, gollywog, currant bun, coon, bongo, nigger and plain black bastard.


 Source

This for me, coupled with my own experience of it's usage over here does it for me.

I heard it used when speaking to all races...

'Don't get lippy with me sunshine....'

'Now let me tell you Sunshine...'

For me it's used and is synonymous with terms like 'Sonny Jim'

'Listen here Sonny Jim' etc..

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/Sonny-Jim
http://dictionary.babylon.com/Sonny_Jim


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 23, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> The problem with all this is that there's nothing worse than someone not affected by prejudice telling someone they can't be offended by something.


Who isn't affected by prejudice?  We surely have all some experience to a greater or lesser extent.

For example, I've no intention of trying to out ethnic anyone, but I come from a Scots-Irish Catholic background, where as I was growing up, because of my surname and, apparently, because I "look Irish", I experienced prejudice ranging from being beaten up for being "Fenian scum" (a term used and received as an ethnic epithet, as the history of the movement was unknown to me and my assailants at that stage in life), to the subtle prejudice of the neighbour who would say, after mowing his lawn, "there - that's more Protestant-looking", and the art teacher who told me I'd used so much green in a painting "because I was Irish".  I told her I wasn't - I'd never thought of myself as such, my ancestors had come over in the 1850s, so I knew only Scottish antecedents.  "No; you're Irish," she replied.

Even now, recent studies have shown people of Irish-Catholic descent in the West of Scotland are more likely to be the poorest, in the lowest paid jobs, in the lowest quality housing, suffering the worst health, with the worst access to health care.  (And before anyone starts, this is about trends and probabilities, so yes, there are exceptions).

So, give people the credit for understanding prejudice.

The point, though, was made by JC himself - is offence _intended_?  With some words, it's best to avoid them: "nigger", for example.  We all understand that.  With others, where they carry no connotations of race in ones own culture - in my case "sunshine" - then JC really has to accept that no offence is intended.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Oct 23, 2008)

Sunshine can't be racist. I don't believe it. Don't blame it on the sunshine!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vjW1iq4IO2k


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 23, 2008)

Again this is part of an American and by extension Canadian demand that the world takes their experience as being definitive.
fanny is slang for Vagina in the UK even if it means Buttocks in the US.

Scumbag is a rather mild insult even though it originally meant a used condom . Words are offensive by their context here and now rather than somewhere else and at some other time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2008)

JC2 and the "sunshine" banned?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 23, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> JC2 and the "sunshine" banned?


FFS.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

"Kellogg's Corn Flakes continue to be the original and best, a position they have held for 80 years, bringing 'BANNED!' to breakfast time and helping people 'wake up' in the morning."

http://www.brandrepublic.com/news/162119/superbrands-case-studies-kelloggs-corn-flakes/


----------



## Darios (Oct 23, 2008)

WTF?


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 23, 2008)

editor said:


> "Kellogg's Corn Flakes continue to be the original and best, a position they have held for 80 years, bringing 'BANNED!' to breakfast time and helping people 'wake up' in the morning."
> 
> http://www.brandrepublic.com/news/162119/superbrands-case-studies-kelloggs-corn-flakes/




actually that's quite funny for you


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> actually that's quite funny for you


Stoicy, isn't it?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 23, 2008)

I couldn't remember anything at all about this Old Stoic everyone's on about.  So I searched and found this.

The time had erased all.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> I couldn't remember anything at all about this Old Stoic everyone's on about.  So I searched and found this.
> 
> The time had erased all.


He is teh internets WARRIOR!


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 23, 2008)

except it isn't me .

Sorry to disappoint


----------



## Al Kahul (Oct 23, 2008)

finally fed up

I'm not the guy you refer to but I'm fed up with it all.

I have no interest in threatening or attacking  anyone 

have fun.

Good bye

<leaves site for somewhere less boring>


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> finally fed up
> 
> I'm not the guy you refer to but I'm fed up with it all.
> 
> ...


Let's have your votes for this flounce please, folks.

I'd put it a low 1/10 on account of it being an 'oops! I'm a returner, my number's up so I'd best flee before I'm banned' number.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 23, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> finally fed up
> 
> I'm not the guy you refer to but I'm fed up with it all.
> 
> ...



really rubbish flounce sunshine


----------



## tarannau (Oct 23, 2008)

He's gone - let's party.

...Actually, on second thoughts, I'm finding it very hard to bother.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 23, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> except it isn't me



It is.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2008)

Al Kahul said:


> finally fed up
> 
> I'm not the guy you refer to but I'm fed up with it all.
> 
> ...


But your threads have been doing sooooooooooo well.


----------



## editor (Oct 23, 2008)

Place your bets! 2-1 he comes back by tomorrow, 5-1 next week and 100-1 he'll never come back....


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 23, 2008)

I'll have a monkey on a next month return


----------



## Dan U (Oct 23, 2008)

DotCommunist said:


> I'll have a monkey on a next month return



racist


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What if I tell you the term chair leg is offensive to me, is it ok to use it?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



With you? No.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> , but Johnny - a man not unacquainted with ruthlessly hammering Google - has failed to produce a single, solitary example.



Funny how the example I gave within the first few posts on the topic, has been consistently ignored. Here it is again for the hard of reading:




> Their favourite was to call blacks "sunshine" and follow up with a string of other abuses: nig-nog, gollywog, currant bun, coon, bongo, nigger and plain black bastard.



http://www.newstatesman.com/200205270004


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I thought you were  a smart girl.



s'funny how you're quite prepared to use derogatory and dismissive language towards '_girls_' eh 'JC2'? but that's alright to ignore maybes, who knows? 

you go get all offended sonny jim (can i still say that?), and i'll still think that the canuck doth protest tooooooooooo much


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> s'funny how you're quite prepared to use derogatory and dismissive language towards '_girls_' eh 'JC2'? but that's alright to ignore maybes, who knows?
> 
> you go get all offended sonny jim (can i still say that?), and i'll still think that the canuck doth protest tooooooooooo much



You have to look at things in context, just as you would with the use of the term 'sunshine'. It can be derogatory, but it isn't always.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Funny how the example I gave within the first few posts on the topic, has been consistently ignored. Here it is again for the hard of reading:
> http://www.newstatesman.com/200205270004


There's a slight flaw there Johnny: that example was from *the UK* where we all know it's not a racist term.

LOL.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't know quite how this kerfuffle started, but it seems a very silly disagreement. 

Sunshine is a term that is used generally when you wish to patronise the person you are addressing. It establishes a power relation, and may be used by a father to his errant son, for instance. So what Darcus Howe is talking about is policemen starting their racial abuse by using a patronising term, then going on to use explicitly racist terms. 

As ever, context is all. I find it hard to believe, Johnny, that you really think Ed meant to be racist. On editor's part, a simple 'Sorry mate, you've taken me the wrong way. No offence intended (or at least, not that sort of offence!), and I would hate you to think that it was' seems all that's needed.

A big sloppy snog and make up, eh?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> There's a slight flaw there Johnny: that example was from *the UK* where we all know it's not a racist term.
> 
> LOL.



Apparently that black guy who wrote the article disagrees with you. The point is that the concept of 'sunshine' as a term of racist abuse didn't originate with me. It's been discussed out there, in a number of places.

Trust white people to tell black people what is or isn't offensive.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I find it hard to believe, Johnny, that you really think Ed meant to be racist.



That's good, because I didn't say that Ed meant to be racist.

What I said was 'for future reference, 'sunshine' can be a term of racist abuse, in NA if not in UK.'

That's what I said.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> On editor's part, a simple 'Sorry mate, you've taken me the wrong way. No offence intended (or at least, not that sort of offence!), and I would hate you to think that it was' seems all that's needed.



But, *ed didn't call me sunshine*. I thought so at first, but butchers pointed out the error. I realized I'd made a mistake, and said 'sorry for the confusion'.

However, that was also ignored in the ensuing brouhaha.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You have to look at things in context, just as you would with the use of the term 'sunshine'. It can be derogatory, but it isn't always.


so what was the context for you dismissing cesare as a 'stupid girl' then? is she a bit dizzy? or are there a breed of 'clever girls' who we can look towards to guide our moral imperative perhaps? maybe you're just chatting shit........


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's good, because I didn't say that Ed meant to be racist.
> 
> What I said was 'for future reference, 'sunshine' can be a term of racist abuse, in NA if not in UK.'
> 
> That's what I said.


Ok. I didn't read that bit. Editor is over-reacting. You're both kind of firing each other up, really.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> so what was the context for you dismissing cesare as a 'stupid girl' then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok. I didn't read that bit. Editor is over-reacting. You're both kind of firing each other up, really.



What I think is going on, is that the ed and I share certain personality characteristics, one of which is a stubborn streak a mile wide. You might throw in there: a huge ego, and an aversion to ever being wrong.

He'll deny this of course: because he's stubborn and wouldn't want to admit that I was right about anything.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2;8230958][QUOTE=Paulie Tandoori said:


> so what was the context for you dismissing cesare as a 'stupid girl' then?



How did my calling her a 'smart girl', now become 'stupid girl'?

Really: go back and read the whole exchange.[/QUOTE]freudian slip. or drunken one maybe. probably the latter. think this is clear sign of impending bedtime. still think you're flying a kite to an extent but hey ho, nightio


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok. I didn't read that bit. Editor is over-reacting. You're both kind of firing each other up, really.


Seeing as 'editor' has been constantly accusing of lying by JC2 during the course of this thread - and more recently been accused of never "lifting a finger to combat racism" - I'd say I've done anything _but_  over react.

He accused me of using a racist term. I asked him to show me proof that it was a racist term and guess what? I'm still waiting.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2008)

Yep, some of the things JC2 has said have been out of line. I'd say you're probably both over-reacting.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> Seeing as 'editor' has been constantly accusing of lying by JC2 during the course of this thread - and more recently been accused of never "lifting a finger to combat racism" - I'd say I've done anything _but_  over react.
> 
> He accused me of using a racist term. I asked him to show me proof that it was a racist term and guess what? I'm still waiting.



Actually I didn't accuse you of lying. I said that your perception of things might be at variance with the perceptions of others, but there are a number of possible reasons for that, apart from lying.

That's what I actually said, but you got your back up, and stopped reading what I was writing, preferring instead, what you thought I was writing.

Except for one instance, where I compared you to pinocchio, when I discovered that Wales was 98% white. I figured, how could you not know that?

But in retrospect, I don't think you were lying even in that instance. I think you honestly believe the things you say, whatever their accordance with the actual state of things.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep, some of the things JC2 has said have been out of line..



Which things?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> Seeing as 'editor' has been *constantly accusing of lying *by JC2 during the course of this thread - and more recently been accused of never "lifting a finger to combat racism" - I'd say I've done anything _but_  over react.
> 
> He accused me of using a racist term. I asked him to show me proof that it was a racist term and guess what? I'm still waiting.




You see, the bolded bit isn't true.

I tend to think it's because you're simply mistaken. I don't see any reason to say 'He's lying about that!'


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Which things?


Jumping on him after he posted the fanzine comic strip for one.

And editor is from Cardiff, which is by far the most multiracial place in Wales. I'm Welsh, and I'm surprised that Wales is 98% white given that the figure for the UK overall is closer to 90%. There are parts of North, Mid and West Wales that are very very white indeed, I suppose.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

I've asked this before, and never got an answer. Why do people make it so their little green light isn't on, even if they are on the boards.

Do they think it makes them 'incognito' or something?

What could possibly be the point?

More mysterious?


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's what I actually said, but you got your back up, and stopped reading what I was writing, preferring instead, what you thought I was writing.


Maybe you don't even realise you're doing it any more, but I really can't be arsed with any more of your endless personal attacks or your subsequent wriggling and bullshit.

Please leave me out of any more of your singular 'observations'  about things I care about: the night club I run, my home city, my football club, my campaigning and my country of birth.

Perhaps you might reflect on the fact that I've never brought any of  these subjects up about you, yet you've felt at liberty to question all these aspects of my life from, frankly, a position of considerable ignorance.

I've had enough now, so please stop.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Jumping on him after he posted the fanzine comic strip for one..



That's your conclusion of what I did. What did I say that was out of line?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2008)

I did it because I keep leaving my computer on for days and it looks like I'm logged on.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And editor is from Cardiff, which is by far the most multiracial place in Wales. I'm Welsh, and I'm surprised that Wales is 98% white given that the figure for the UK overall is closer to 90%. There are parts of North, Mid and West Wales that are very very white indeed, I suppose.



I had no real idea about the numbers, until I looked at the stats.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> Maybe you don't even realise you're doing it any more, but I really can't be arsed with any more of your endless personal attacks or your subsequent wriggling and bullshit.
> 
> Please leave me out of any more of your singular 'observations'  about things I care about: the night club I run, my home city, my football club, my campaigning and my country of birth.
> 
> ...




Fair enough. And since it's hard to know in advance what you might take offence over, better that I simply don't contribute to discussions with you. For example, I might say something about your dislike for SUVs that you will get angry over, given that they don't bother me much.

I'm not one for tiptoe-ing around people, and given your position of power here, and your penchant for taking offence, best I simply avoid talking with you.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2;8231013]For example said:


> Given the sensitivity of your comments here, you still expect me to believe that you ever lifted a finger to combat racism?
> 
> As they say in NYC getouddahere!


This whole site started life as an anti-racist campaign, _and you fucking know it_, so don't try and play dumb with me.

Here. Read and educate yourself - like you didn't know already:
http://www.urban75.org/football/index.html
http://www.urban75.org/comics/bjonesintr.html


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> And still you're trying to belittle me. I took offence because you posted up twisted, deceitful shit like this:This whole site started life as an anti-racist campaign, _and you fucking know it_, so don't try and play dumb with me.
> 
> Here. Read and educate yourself - like you didn't know already:
> http://www.urban75.org/football/index.html
> http://www.urban75.org/comics/bjonesintr.html



To my observation, you were belittling my very real comments about being offended at a young age by racists taunting me with 'sunshine'.

In my opinion, that revealed a surprising lack of sensitivity.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> This whole site started life as an anti-racist campaign, _and you fucking know it_,



How would you know what I know? So far as I was concerned, the site started as a place to discuss football, and specifically, Cardiff football.

p.s You've asked me to stop saying things that will upset you. If that's what you actually want, why not show me the respect of not doing the same to me?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

There's clearly only one way to settle this.......





Select your weapons gentlemen please......

10 paces, turn and fire.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> To my observation, you were belittling my very real comments about being offended at a young age by racists taunting me with 'sunshine'.
> 
> In my opinion, that revealed a surprising lack of sensitivity.


Actually, I was commenting on your attempt to suggest I was guilty of openly using a racist term when it turned out it was only racist _in your head._ 

Taken in context of your previous attacks on me, it looked like yet another cheap attempt to have a go at me - and I wasn't the only person to think that either.

I find your claim that you know nothing of the site's anti-racist background rather strange too considering the time you've been here and the fact that it's been discussed several times. It's even written up on several pages in the site and it's even been pointed out earlier in this thread. Yet _still_ you have the fucking gall to accuse me of 'never lifting a finger to combat racism.' 

Once again: Please leave me out of any more of your singular 'observations' about things I care about: the night club I run, my home city, my football club, my campaigning and my country of birth.

Perhaps you might reflect on the fact that I've never attacked you in such a personal manner, yet you've felt at liberty to post up lies and slurs about my personal experiences from a position of _considerable_ ignorance.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> Actually, I was commenting on your attempt to suggest I was guilty of openly using a racist term when it turned out it was only racist _in your head._
> 
> Taken in context of your previous attacks on me, it looked like yet another cheap attempt to have a go at me - and I wasn't the only person to think that either.
> 
> ...



Ok.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 24, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Trust white people to tell black people what is or isn't offensive.


 
I'm not white. And anyone who knows me can tell you, I take racism very seriously.


----------



## cesare (Oct 24, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> I'm not white. And anyone who knows me can tell you, I take racism very seriously.



I know Refused as fuck. He's not white and he takes racism very seriously.

We could have another page of this


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> I know Refused as fuck. He's not white and he takes racism very seriously.


It's true.

In fact I find it offensive that someone would suggest otherwise.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

> We could have another page of this




Are we quite sure we won't be needing these....?


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> I'm not white. And anyone who knows me can tell you, I take racism very seriously.



Only Johnny's 'black' so you can't be !!- everyone else is a racist. He's had it really tough has Johnny.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2008)

Shut up racist white twat. (You're not even proper white either are you?)


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Shut up racist white twat. (You're not even proper white either are you?)



that doesn't count. anyway, to busy ironing my blackshirt to give a toss 

he was called names and everything


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 24, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> I'm not white.



You're not? My eyes must be decieving me?! I'm shocked.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> You're not? My eyes must be decieving me?! I'm shocked.



maybe he's not 'proper white', like me


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 24, 2008)

dennisr said:


> maybe he's not 'proper white', like me



or me..... The half of me that's of Red Sea pedestrian descent makes my remarks on racism that extra bit more important you know!


----------



## Refused as fuck (Oct 24, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> It's true.
> 
> In fact I find it offensive that someone would suggest otherwise.


 


cesare said:


> I know Refused as fuck. He's not white and he takes racism very seriously.
> 
> We could have another page of this


 

Serious post is serious. 



Fedayn said:


> You're not? My eyes must be decieving me?! I'm shocked.




You saw me in that film. I'm _authentic_.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> or me..... The half of me that's of Red Sea pedestrian descent makes my remarks on racism that extra bit more important you know!



Its important to defer to those with a proper 'genetic understanding' of racism as these white folks understand - its true respect:

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 24, 2008)

Refused as fuck said:


> You saw me in that film. I'm _authentic_.



What film?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)




----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 24, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> What film?


Blackula.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

Fedayn said:


> What film?



Short circuit.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


>


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

dennisr said:


>



That's funny because?


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> That's funny because?



what are you, 'suspicious fish?'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

dennisr said:


> what are you, 'suspicious fish?'



Been called worse....


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Been called worse....



so's Johnny, poor Johnny 

i've had it easy like


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 24, 2008)

dennisr said:


> so's Johnny, poor Johnny
> 
> i've had it easy like


Don't call him that, that _word_ again!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

dennisr said:


> so's Johnny, poor Johnny
> 
> i've had it easy like



Don't even consider dragging me into it. Really!

You called me a suspicious fish, I'm not bothered.


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

danny la rouge said:


> Don't call him that, that _word_ again!




What "Johnny"? *guiltily sniggers*


----------



## dennisr (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> You called me a suspicious fish, I'm not bothered.



Where i come from its a compliment 

Can't speak for Canada or "truely" 'black' people though

"Pud" now thats a rude word


----------



## Belushi (Oct 24, 2008)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Jumping on him after he posted the fanzine comic strip for one.
> 
> And editor is from Cardiff, which is by far the most multiracial place in Wales. I'm Welsh, and I'm surprised that Wales is 98% white given that the figure for the UK overall is closer to 90%. There are parts of North, Mid and West Wales that are very very white indeed, I suppose.



It's 96% white according to the 2001 census.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

Belushi said:


> It's 96% white according to the 2001 census.


Not this again. The argument was about _Cardiff _and Johnny's home made claim that racism was rife on the terraces in the 1990s.

He then moved on to say that Cardiff wasn't multi ethnic at all, and when he failed to impress anyone with that made-up argument, he tried to twist his way out by broadening the argument to include all of Wales - which is of course entirely irrelevant to his argument about the supposed racism in Cardiff.

The actual facts are that Cardiff was one of the UK's first multi ethnic communities and hosts one of Britain’s longest-established Muslim populations, with the UK’s first mosque built there in 1860.

Cardiff remains a multi ethnic city, and is recorded as being more multiracial than Leeds, Sheffield, Southampton and the City of Bradford.  It also makes the city substantially more Multiracial/ Mixed Race than Canada.



> People from ethnic backgrounds other than White were concentrated in the three biggest cities in Wales. *In Cardiff they made up 8 per cent of the population,* in Newport 5 per cent and in Swansea 2 per cent. By far the highest concentrations were in Cardiff. Around half of the Black and Asian groups and a third of the Mixed and Chinese groups lived in the capital.
> http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=451


----------



## Dan U (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> The actual facts are that Cardiff was one of the UK's first multi ethnic communities and hosts one of Britain’s longest-established Muslim populations, with the UK’s first mosque built there in 1860.



i always thought that was Woking?

1860 is well early regardless!


----------



## Jessiedog (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> Cardiff ........ the city [is] substantially more Multiracial/ Mixed Race than Canada.



Maybe (I don't know).

But I doubt that Cardiff is more Multiracial/ Mixed Race than Vancouver.





Woof


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

Jessiedog said:


> Maybe (I don't know).
> 
> But I doubt that Cardiff is more Multiracial/ Mixed Race than Vancouver.
> 
> ...



You doubt right Jessie. 



> By 2017, fully 49% of Toronto’s population could be immigrants, up from 44% in 2001. In Vancouver, the proportion is projected to rise from 38% to 44%.





> From 1981 to 2001, the number of visible minorities increased more than threefold from 1.1 million people, or nearly 5% of the population, to 4.0 million people, or 13% of the population. Chinese made up the largest visible minority group in 2001, followed by South Asians and Africans.
> 
> By 2017, about 20% of Canada’s population could be visible minorities, or anywhere from 6.3 million to 8.5 million people. Close to half are projected to be South Asian or Chinese. The highest growth rates are projected for West Asian, Korean and Arab groups, whose populations could more than double by 2017 but remain small relative to the South Asian, Chinese and African populations. In 2017, 95% of the visible minority population will live in a census metropolitan area (CMA), virtually unchanged from 2001.




From here


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

Jessiedog said:


> Maybe (I don't know).
> 
> But I doubt that Cardiff is more Multiracial/ Mixed Race than Vancouver.


Me neither, so it's a good job I wasn't making such a claim.


----------



## cesare (Oct 24, 2008)

If the thread is now being diverted into the realms of a diversity deathmatch between Canada and Wales, I think we should set some ground rules here.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> If the thread is now being diverted into the realms of a diversity deathmatch between Canada and Wales, I think we should set some ground rules here.



Will we be needing the pistols?


----------



## cesare (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Will we be needing the pistols?



The comparisons are preposterous ... but if people insist I guess the Welsh will fuck off any seconds and certainly not call for England to back them up - retreat into the hills as it were where the Canadians won't be able to winkle them out.

And faced with any direct action from the Welsh guerilla the Canadians will get all angsty with their literally HUGE navy lol and airforce lol reserves and start being nice to the US _just in case_.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> The comparisons are preposterous ... but if people insist I guess the Welsh will fuck off any seconds and certainly not call for England to back them up - retreat into the hills as it were where the Canadians won't be able to winkle them out.
> 
> And faced with any direct action from the Welsh guerilla the Canadians will get all angsty with their literally HUGE navy lol and airforce lol reserves and start being nice to the US _just in case_.



Was that a yes or a no?


----------



## cesare (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Was that a yes or a no?



That was a no. Unless Johnny wants to come over here and put his pistol where his mouth is. 

That sounded a bit rude


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> That was a no. Unless Johnny wants to come over here and put his pistol where his mouth is.
> 
> That sounded a bit rude



 Yes it did!


----------



## cesare (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes it did!



I is a disgrace


----------



## Jessiedog (Oct 24, 2008)

editor said:


> Me neither, so it's a good job I wasn't making such a claim.



Absolutely.

But the claim you _were_ making, was akin to (as in "a bit like") claiming that London is more culturally diverse than Sichuan Province.

Which it is.





Woof


----------



## Jessiedog (Oct 24, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Are we quite sure we won't be needing these....?




Quite!














Woof


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2008)

Jessiedog said:


> But the claim you _were_ making, was akin to (as in "a bit like") claiming that London is more culturally diverse than Sichuan Province.


There's no stopping you tonight.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 25, 2008)

editor said:


> Cardiff remains a multi ethnic city, and is recorded as being more multiracial than Leeds, Sheffield, Southampton and the City of Bradford.  It also makes the city substantially more Multiracial/ Mixed Race than Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you ever hear this joke:




> A guy goes on a bear hunting trip in a remote part of Alaska. On his first day, he sees a bear. So he takes aim, shoots, but misses. Suddenly he feels a tap on his shoulder. The bear says, "Just for that you gotta give me a blowjob or I'll kill you." So, dude sucks the bear off.
> 
> That night he goes to the closest town and buys the biggest rifle he can find. Next day hunting, he sees the same bear. He takes aim, shoots, and misses again. Feels a tap on his shoulder. The bear says, "Just for that you have to let me fuck you or I'll kill you." After being ravaged by the bear, he goes into the nearest town. He finds an army surplus store and buys a bazooka so he can kill that fucking bear.
> 
> Next day, he sees the bear. He takes aim, shoots, and misses again. He feels the tap on the shoulder. The bear says, "You don't come here for the hunting, do ya?"





To start off, comparing the ethnicity of a city with that of a country, is comparing apples an oranges.

Second:



> 2006 census figures analyzed by Statistics Canada show that *one in five* people living in Canada are foreign-born, the highest proportion in 75 years.






> The figures from Statistics Canada also show that *20 percent of the Canadian population is now composed of individuals who do not count English or French as their native language. *Chinese languages are now the third most spoken, followed by Italian, German, Punjabi, Spanish, Arabic, Tagalog, and Portuguese.



http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007-12-05/canada/canada-statistics-immigrant-population-2006.htm



> *Visible minorities now make up more than 16 percent of Canada's population*, according to 2006 census data released on Wednesday, with South Asians becoming the largest such group for the first time.



http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-32817020080402


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> To start off, comparing the ethnicity of a city with that of a country, is comparing apples an oranges.



May i just say, you don't come here for the posting do you?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 25, 2008)

Btw, let's compare Vancouver and London....just for fun!




> In the 2001 census, *71.15% of these seven and a half million people classed their ethnic group as white (classified as White British (59.79%), White Irish (3.07%) or "Other White" (8.29%)), *12.09% as Indian (mainly Punjabi, Hindi & Gujarati), Pakistani, Bangladeshi (Bengali), Tamils (mostly Sri Lankan Tamil along with a significant number of Indian Tamil and Malaysian Tamil and "Other Asian" (mostly Arab and other South Asian ethnicities), 10.91% as Black (5.28% as Black African, 4.79% as Black Caribbean, 0.84% as "Other Black"), 3.15% as mixed race, 1.12% as Chinese and 1.58% as other (mostly Filipino, Japanese, and Vietnamese). The Irish are the largest foreign-born group in London (numbering approximately 200,000).
> 
> The largest religious groupings are Christian (58.2%), No Religion (15.8%), Muslim (8.5%), Hindu (4.1%), Jewish (2.1%), Sikh (1.5%) and Other (11.1%),
> 
> Since the last census in 2001, it seems likely that the ethnic and country-of-birth composition of the London population has changed, particularly with the accession to the European Union of ten new member states in May 2004 and two more in January 2008, since nationals of these states are now able to live and work in the UK. The size of the Polish-born population in particular is likely to have increased, but no reliable estimates of the size of this population are available.






> *Vancouver is one of the most integrated cities in the world*. It has more interracial couples and less residential segregation than Canada's two largest cities, Toronto and Montreal. In total, 7.2 per cent of married and common-law couples in Greater Vancouver are interracial — double the Canadian average of 3.2 per cent, and higher than in Toronto (6.1 per cent) and Montreal (3.5 per cent). Among Vancouver couples in their 20s, 12.9 per cent are of mixed-race.[citation needed]
> 
> *In the City of Vancouver, 47.1%— are members of visible minority groups*.[3]



Well, there it is on the shed, as they say.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 25, 2008)

On the interracial marriage thing?



> As of 2001, 2% of all UK marriages are interethnic. Despite having a much lower non-white population (9%), mixed marriages are as common as in the United States[36].



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage#United_Kingdom

On this front, you're doing as well as the USA. That's something to be proud of, I guess.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

What point is it that you're trying to make?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 25, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What point is it that you're trying to make?



You're not really as thick as you make yourself out to be, are you?


Here's a clue for the hard of thinking: I leave this thread yesterday, thinking it's finally ready to go to its grave. But I come back today, and there are all these erroneous statements made in the interim about the level of Canada's ethnicity.

I'm replying so that people like you won't be kept in the dark any longer. It's a service to you.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

I can see some desperate attempts at face saving, and you clearly see some light at the end of this tunnel, so crack on...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 25, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I can see some desperate attempts at face saving, and you clearly see some light at the end of this tunnel, so crack on...



Just stating the facts, ma'am.


----------



## cesare (Oct 25, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You're not really as thick as you make yourself out to be, are you?
> 
> 
> Here's a clue for the hard of thinking: I leave this thread yesterday, thinking it's finally ready to go to its grave. But I come back today, and there are all these erroneous statements made in the interim about the level of Canada's ethnicity.
> ...



Looks like it'll run and run - unless someone has a hissy fit and gets it binned


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 25, 2008)

Is butchersapron _still _throwing his weight around on this thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

I am yes, i'm fucking people up left right and centre. Or alternatively i've made about 2 or 3  posts out of the last 500...and you're on one of your rolls.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 25, 2008)

Yep, still throwing his weight around and still trying to claim he's intellectually superior to the rest of us.

Was that an attempt at humour, apron? Stick to your day job (if you have one).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

Nino, what are you so scared of me that you need to nake up these bizzare claims on my behalf all the time?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 25, 2008)

For someone who likes to come across as intelligent, your use of grammar is rather poor. 



> what are you so scared of me



Very poor.

No "bizarre" claims here, apron, just the truth. But telling me that I'm "scared" of you...well, that's another example of your over-inflated ego running away with itself.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

You clearly think that i'm your intellectual superior. I don't. Let it out nino. Let it out.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 25, 2008)

You clearly don't understand sarcasm (or English grammar), do you? LOL!!!!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

There i go claiming to be your intellectuall superior again. That's terrible behaviour isn't it nino? What sort of arsehole would do that?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 25, 2008)

Whose post were you replying to? Context is everything. Now, if you don't mind, I have other things to do (like eat). Go and play silly buggers with someone else.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2008)

Whose posts was i replying to when i replied to your posts? Yours.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Btw, let's compare Vancouver and London....just for fun!
> 
> Well, there it is on the shed, as they say.



How do you square all this 'Well Britain's still mostly white' stuff with the "Britain's going to be a muslim state in 30 years" stuff you were saying somewhere else?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> How do you square all this 'Well Britain's still mostly white' stuff with the "Britain's going to be a muslim state in 30 years" stuff you were saying somewhere else?



Birthrate differential.

Plus, I might have been wrong on the timing. I was under the impression that britain was more multiethnic than it actually is.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 26, 2008)

One thing, though, is that Britain is much more densely populated, so even though the overall proportion which is an ethnic minority might be lower than North America, people will still encounter a lot of people of other ethnicities all the time.

Whenever I hear these people saying "Ooh, there's too much immigration in Britain these days, the country's finished, I'm emigrating", it's practically always North America or Australia that they intend to go to.  Presumably because the population is so much more widely distributed...


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> One thing, though, is that Britain is much more densely populated, so even though the overall proportion which is an ethnic minority might be lower than North America, people will still encounter a lot of people of other ethnicities all the time....



Yes, I'm sure London is so much more densely populated than New York, Chicago, etc.

And by the sound of it, all the ethnics are in the city, so what does it matter how crowded together all the gumboot wearing sheep farmers are?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, I'm sure London is so much more densely populated than New York, Chicago, etc.
> 
> And by the sound of it, all the ethnics are in the city, so what does it matter how crowded together all the gumboot wearing sheep farmers are?



Don't be so bloody argumentative RD was talking about Britain as a whole.

Look at the size of Britain Johnny, it's not difficult to understand what he was saying.


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, I'm sure London is so much more densely populated than New York, Chicago, etc.
> 
> And by the sound of it, all the ethnics are in the city, so what does it matter how crowded together all the gumboot wearing sheep farmers are?



That's not really the point, is it?

It's a small country, the size of one of the USA's average-sized states, with a population twice Canada's.

That makes it quite pointless to directly compare, and quite obvious that most people are at some point pretty likely to live in a multicultural area, especially with everything being so centralised in London and the fact that when people start getting into a career and work etc, they pretty much have to move to the capital or one of the other major cities.


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yes, I'm sure London is so much more densely populated than New York, Chicago, etc.
> 
> And by the sound of it, all the ethnics are in the city, so what does it matter how crowded together all the gumboot wearing sheep farmers are?



The population of the UK is nearly twice that of Canada, here on this tiny island.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> That's not really the point, is it?
> 
> It's a small country, the size of one of the USA's average-sized states, with a population twice Canada's..



So freaking what? Most people in any of these countries live in large urban areas. What does it matter how big the surrounding country is?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> The population of the UK is nearly twice that of Canada, here on this tiny island.



Cool. 11 million people live in the GTA. 3 million in Greater Vancouver. Something similar in Montreal.

You could fit 50 UKs into the Northwest Territories. So what?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> So freaking what? Most people in any of these countries live in large urban areas. What does it matter how big the surrounding country is?



Because when the population density is so incredibly higher, it means that on average people live more right on top of each other, and as such it means that the proportion of ethnic minorities seems higher than it might actually be.

I'm surprised you find it hard to grasp this very simple point.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> That makes it quite pointless to directly compare, and quite obvious that most people are at some point pretty likely to live in a multicultural area, especially with everything being so centralised in London and the fact that when people start getting into a career and work etc, they pretty much have to move to the capital or one of the other major cities.



No matter what, 75% of the people in London are white.

In Vancouver, 47% are visible minorities.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> Because when the population density is so incredibly higher, it means that on average people live more right on top of each other, and as such it means that the proportion of ethnic minorities seems higher than it might actually be.
> 
> I'm surprised you find it hard to grasp this very simple point.




You keep missing the point that most Canadians live in densely populated urban areas, just like Britons.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

A residential neighborhood in vancouver:

http://www.mwtech.com/rw/photos/Canada/Vancouver/Yaletown.jpg

Is this what you mean by 'people living on top of one another'?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You keep missing the point that most Canadians live in densely populated urban areas, just like Britons.



And you keep missing the one that if you want to find a decent job, you have to go to one of the major, multicultural urban centres in the UK, whereas in the USA, there is so much more choice - otherwise, why do the aforementioned disgruntled-with-the-state-of-the-UK-racists always seem to say they are moving to Canada or the USA?


----------



## upsidedownwalrus (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> A residential neighborhood in vancouver:
> 
> http://www.mwtech.com/rw/photos/Canada/Vancouver/Yaletown.jpg
> 
> Is this what you mean by 'people living on top of one another'?



What does a picture of a block of yuppie flats prove?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

Another neighborhood.

http://k41.pbase.com/o6/11/736911/1/82637866.HiVj7mLu.IMG_0010Be_tosV15.JPG

If minorities live there, you're sure to see them.


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Area of the UK = 94,251 sq miles

Area of Lake Superior, yep the biggest great lake so we're not even approaching Canada's landmass here = 31,820 sq mi


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

RenegadeDog said:


> And you keep missing the one that if you want to find a decent job, you have to go to one of the major, multicultural urban centres in the UK, whereas in the USA, there is so much more choice - otherwise, why do the aforementioned disgruntled-with-the-state-of-the-UK-racists always seem to say they are moving to Canada or the USA?



The same applies in Canada, in this way: 80% of canadians live in urban areas.

http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/analysis/agesex/Subprov1.cfm

Why do people move here? More of the aforementioned decent jobs, a better standard of living, and a more civil society, in Canada at least.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No matter what, 75% of the people in London are white.



Ermmmm source please. Not that I don't believe ya, just that that's not my experience at all.

Sure certain parts of London are more one or the other but 75% overall?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Area of the UK = 94,251 sq miles
> 
> Area of Lake Superior, yep the biggest great lake so we're not even approaching Canada's landmass here = 31,820 sq mi



That's right: it is a tiny island, relatively speaking.

But aside from a few houseboats, no one lives on Lake Superior.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Ermmmm source please. Not that I don't believe ya, just that that's not my experience at all.
> 
> Sure certain parts of London are more one or the other but 75% overall?



There's a citation a couple of pages back in this thread, if you care to look.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

It's on page 53.



> In the 2001 census, 71.15% of these seven and a half million people classed their ethnic group as white (classified as White British (59.79%), White Irish (3.07%) or "Other White" (8.29%)), 12.09% as Indian (mainly Punjabi, Hindi & Gujarati), Pakistani, Bangladeshi (Bengali), Tamils (mostly Sri Lankan Tamil along with a significant number of Indian Tamil and Malaysian Tamil and "Other Asian" (mostly Arab and other South Asian ethnicities), 10.91% as Black (5.28% as Black African, 4.79% as Black Caribbean, 0.84% as "Other Black"), 3.15% as mixed race, 1.12% as Chinese and 1.58% as other (mostly Filipino, Japanese, and Vietnamese). The Irish are the largest foreign-born group in London (numbering approximately 200,000).
> 
> The largest religious groupings are Christian (58.2%), No Religion (15.8%), Muslim (8.5%), Hindu (4.1%), Jewish (2.1%), Sikh (1.5%) and Other (11.1%),
> 
> Since the last census in 2001, it seems likely that the ethnic and country-of-birth composition of the London population has changed, particularly with the accession to the European Union of ten new member states in May 2004 and two more in January 2008, since nationals of these states are now able to live and work in the UK. The size of the Polish-born population in particular is likely to have increased, but no reliable estimates of the size of this population are available.



It's from wikipedia. I'm wrong, btw. It's only 71%


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> That's right: it is a tiny island, relatively speaking.
> 
> But aside from a few houseboats, no one lives on Lake Superior.



It was just a scale thing - perspective. It wasn't until I'd spent some time in Canada that it came home to me just how freaking big your country is, and how few people live in it comparatively. 

Nearly twice Canada's total population live in the UK, in an area less than 3x Canada's biggest lake. Heh.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> It was just a scale thing - perspective. It wasn't until I'd spent some time in Canada that it came home to me just how freaking big your country is, and how few people live in it comparatively.
> 
> Nearly twice Canada's total population live in the UK, in an area less than 3x Canada's biggest lake. Heh.



Yeah, it's a huge country. And 80% of the people live in urban areas, all of which could be easily fit within the UK land mass.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> It's on page 53.
> 
> 
> 
> It's from wikipedia. I'm wrong, btw. It's only 71%



Okay, but why is that relevant to what RD was saying about Britain being well populated for it's size?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Okay, but why is that relevant to what RD was saying about Britain being well populated for it's size?



Huh?

He was responding to my posts about relative ethnic mixes with this stuff about size.

Ask him what he's getting at.

In other words, my posts about the 71%, came first.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

But I do agree: what he's saying, is irrelevant to the discussion.


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yeah, it's a huge country. And 80% of the people live in urban areas, all of which could be easily fit within the UK land mass.



Yeah. And the entire population of India could come and live in Canada without even being noticed as long as they didn't go near your summer log cabins. No wonder you don't have a problem with immigration.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Yeah. And the entire population of India could come and live in Canada



Given that canada's bigger than india, and they all fit in india already, what you're saying seems a bit obvious. They could fit in Russia, the US, and Brazil, also.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Yeah, it's a huge country. And 80% of the people live in urban areas, all of which could be easily fit within the UK land mass.



Yeh but it's a lot bigger than the UK.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

two sheds said:


> Yeh but it's a lot bigger than the UK.


Insightful.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

The fact that canada is bigger than the uk, means the the drive between cities, is just a lot further and longer.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Insightful.



Sorry, couldn't resist


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The fact that canada is bigger than the uk, means the the drive between cities, is just a lot further and longer.



 Insightful!


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Given that canada's bigger than india, and they all fit in india already, what you're saying seems a bit obvious. They could fit in Russia, the US, and Brazil, also.




Ah. Selective quoting. But RD's point stands. It's easy to be bounteous and munificent about immigration when you've got HUGE amounts of landmass to expand into. (Unless you're First Nation, then you don't actually get allocated that much for your reservation).


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Ah. Selective quoting. But RD's point stands. It's easy to be bounteous and munificent about immigration when you've got HUGE amounts of landmass to expand into. (Unless you're First Nation, then you don't actually get allocated that much for your reservation).



We're not talking about immigration.

The fact is that living in the middle of toronto isn't hugely different from living in the middle of london, *in terms of the numbers of people around you *etc.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> Insightful!



The point is that cities are cities, and most canadians live in them, as do most britons.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> . (Unless you're First Nation, then you don't actually get allocated that much for your reservation).



Do you know anything about the size of reservations?


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> We're not talking about immigration.
> 
> The fact is that living in the middle of toronto isn't hugely different from living in the middle of london, in terms of the numbers of people around you etc.



Toronto is hugely different to London. That's the only place in Canada where I can make some sort of personal direct comparison with London, and it's very very different.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

If you're actually interested, this is some info about the reserves near where I grew up.

http://www.albertasource.ca/treaty7/contemporary/implications_reserves.html


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Do you know anything about the size of reservations?



Yes.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Toronto is hugely different to London. That's the only place in Canada where I can make some sort of personal direct comparison with London, and it's very very different.



Of course there are many differences. I'll edit the old post to highlight the part you've omitted from your reading.


----------



## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> If you're actually interested, this is some info about the reserves near where I grew up.
> 
> http://www.albertasource.ca/treaty7/contemporary/implications_reserves.html



Is that link supposed to tell us how well Canada treats its First Nation people?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Is that link supposed to tell us how well Canada treats its First Nation people?



Not reading too well tonight, are you?


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## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Of course there are many differences. I'll edit the old post to highlight the part you've omitted from your reading.



To demonstrate anything, you'd first have to give the geographical area of inner and outer Toronto compared to inner and outer London - then compare population figures, and London's are way higher than Toronto's. And so on.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> To demonstrate anything, you'd first have to give the geographical area of inner and outer Toronto compared to inner and outer London - then compare population figures, and London's are way higher than Toronto's. And so on.



blah blah blah

If you walk down a street in London, there are a lot of people around you.

If you walk down a street in Toronto, there are a lot of people around you.


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## cesare (Oct 26, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Not reading too well tonight, are you?



Awr, you calling me a stupid girl again? Bless.

Good night.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Awr, you calling me a stupid girl again? Bless.
> 
> Good night.



There you go again: reading things that aren't there.

Maybe bed is a good idea.


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## _float_ (Oct 26, 2008)

Dan U said:


> i always thought that was Woking?
> 
> 1860 is well early regardless!


Cardiff had the first property registered as a mosque in 1860 (at 2 Glyn Rhondda Street). Woking had the first 'purpose-built' mosque - the Shah Jahan mosque in 1889. [You can briefly see the dome on the left hand side of the tracks as you come from London just before Woking station].

The Quilliam mosque at Number 8 Brougham Terrace in Liverpool (1889) has also been described in some sources as the UK's first 'proper' mosque, although I am not sure on what basis.


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## spring-peeper (Oct 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Ah. Selective quoting. But RD's point stands. It's easy to be bounteous and munificent about immigration when you've got HUGE amounts of landmass to expand into. (Unless you're First Nation, then you don't actually get allocated that much for your reservation).



First nations people are allowed to own land outside of the reserve, you know.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 27, 2008)

edit


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## spring-peeper (Oct 27, 2008)

soz - I rarely open links due to a really, really slow dialup speed.  

Actually, I've never even visited youtube


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 27, 2008)

edit


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## spring-peeper (Oct 27, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> You really should: it's Cher.



I'll try to get on the board from work.  I've often wondered why everyone keeps linking into it.

*glances at clock and does the math*



It's rare that you are up at this time.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Oct 27, 2008)

spring-peeper said:


> I'll try to get on the board from work.  I've often wondered why everyone keeps linking into it.
> 
> *glances at clock and does the math*
> 
> ...



I have to leave for work just after five, and the idea of it is keeping me from sleeping.


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## editor (Oct 27, 2008)

spring-peeper said:


> soz - I rarely open links due to a really, really slow dialup speed.


I think we should put something in the FAQ to stop lazy people posting up YouTube links without troubling themselves to  put in at least a short text explanation of what the clip is actually about.


In fact, I'm going to suggest it to the mods now.


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## spring-peeper (Oct 27, 2008)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I have to leave for work just after five, and the idea of it is keeping me from sleeping.



Been there - hope the day doesn't drag too much for you.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 27, 2008)

editor said:


> I think we should put something in the FAQ to stop lazy people posting up YouTube links without troubling themselves to  put in at least a short text explanation of what the clip is actually about.
> 
> 
> In fact, I'm going to suggest it to the mods now.


it's one of the most annoying things in the world imo. seriously. i would like to see the offenders being subject to some seriously intense birching across the buttocks. 

*hopes the above doesn't fall foul of any 'ism' in any way*


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## spring-peeper (Oct 27, 2008)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> it's one of the most annoying things in the world imo. seriously. i would like to see the offenders being subject to some seriously intense birching across the buttocks.
> 
> *hopes the above doesn't fall foul of any 'ism' in any way*



Really?  For me, it's people who post massive images in a thread whose title doesn't hint that large images will be present.  The text on the page keeps jumping as the images start coming in and, in the event of a really nasty on, will jam my browser.  

Oh yes - I really bothers me when people use massive words in their post.  I keep having to google the words


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## butchersapron (Nov 25, 2008)

A sea of racism

Racist football chanting drops



> Arrests at football matches for racist chanting have fallen to the lowest recorded level in England and Wales.
> 
> Police figures show there were 23 arrests for racism at games during all domestic and international matches in the 2007-08 season.
> 
> ...


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## xes (Nov 25, 2008)

and the tide's going out,forever.


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