# Legislative Powers Referendum, March 2011 - Wales votes 'OES!'



## Flagwaver (Dec 22, 2010)

Would be interested to hear any strong arguments against voting Yes.


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## butchersapron (Dec 22, 2010)

What is it?


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## Flagwaver (Dec 22, 2010)

Its this; similar to 1997 only beefier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_devolution_referendum,_2011


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## Dic Penderyn (Dec 23, 2010)

Flagwaver said:


> Would be interested to hear any strong arguments against voting Yes.


 
I've been impressed by the No campaign line of argument "they're all rich elitist politicians, give them a bloody nose!"

Of course this is massively let down by the fact the No campaign is run by Oxbridge graduate Labour party hacks, but there you go.

I particularly liked their reasons for not publishing anything in Welsh as "we'd get attacked!" brilliant showmanship!

If "True Wales" weren't such a contemptible shower of utter wankers I might have supported them for a laugh. 

I haven't really given it much thought but I imagine I'll be spoiling my ballot... "Neither Westminster or the Bay!"


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## 1927 (Dec 23, 2010)

As someone who originally voted NO to devolution, my simplistic view is in for a penny in for a pund, What is the point of being devolved from Westminster if we are still controlled by them?


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## Gavin Bl (Dec 23, 2010)

Interesting, I feel the opposite - devolution has been broadly positive - so would support the extension of powers, but wouldn't want to see a break from the UK. So I guess at what point does a person feel that devolving power is opening the door to a break with 'the Union'? Hard to say...though have to confess I'm not too bothered about the referendum.


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## Karac (Dec 24, 2010)

What do you think Flagwaver?


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## lewislewis (Dec 25, 2010)

Gavin Bl said:


> Interesting, I feel the opposite - devolution has been broadly positive - so would support the extension of powers, but wouldn't want to see a break from the UK. So I guess at what point does a person feel that devolving power is opening the door to a break with 'the Union'? Hard to say...though have to confess I'm not too bothered about the referendum.


 
Fair enough.

The only rational way to look at it is to vote for what's on offer.

I support independence- breaking Westminster's power over the UK's constituent nations and having self-government for each of those nations, 

*However*, the vast majority of Welsh people (or at least, those that are actually bothered) disagree with me and support having more devolution for Wales but within the UK framework. Obviously, public opinion changes over time, but we are where we are.

And that is exactly what is on offer in the referendum- a very slightly beefed up Assembly, still being part of the union.


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## lewislewis (Dec 25, 2010)

I would also add, even if you are not that interested in the very minor legislative powers on offer in this referendum, casting a 'Yes' vote is an obvious affirmation of consent and support for devolution. 

So it's worth all pro-devolution people, even people that are passive and more interested in the cuts agenda and the battles over that, to come out and vote for this progressive cause.


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## Gavin Bl (Dec 25, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> I would also add, even if you are not that interested in the very minor legislative powers on offer in this referendum, casting a 'Yes' vote is an obvious affirmation of consent and support for devolution.
> 
> So it's worth all pro-devolution people, even people that are passive and more interested in the cuts agenda and the battles over that, to come out and vote for this progressive cause.



I'll vote 'yes', just with v. limited expectations, thats all. (sounds like every other election )


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## lewislewis (Dec 27, 2010)

Gavin Bl said:


> I'll vote 'yes', just with v. limited expectations, thats all. (sounds like every other election )


 
Can't disagree with that!

In this sense though I feel more positive about it than party elections, even though I am a partisan, it feels better to me that the vote is for the institution.

And so far, the kind of politics I lean towards have been advanced by having that institution. I feel there's a qualitiative institutional difference between the Assembly and Westminster and i'll vote to reaffirm that.


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## Flagwaver (Dec 27, 2010)

Dic Penderyn said:


> I've been impressed by the No campaign line of argument "they're all rich elitist politicians, give them a bloody nose!"
> 
> If "True Wales" weren't such a contemptible shower of utter wankers I might have supported them for a laugh.
> 
> I haven't really given it much thought but I imagine I'll be spoiling my ballot... "Neither Westminster or the Bay!"



Haven't given it much thought? Very honest! 

I've some sympathy with the notion that Assembly politicians could turn out to be no better than Westminster politicians, but spoling your ballot and not voting for greater powers is hardly going to remedy that. And whilst this referendum is hardly anything to get overly excited about, granted; but there is surely more to consider than simply going along with *more Devolution* because devolution is a *marginal improvement*. 

My thinking is that, a successful Yes-vote could be read as (an unfortunate) blanket endorsement of Assembly politicians, helping them bed-down more deeply, thus barring the way to the kind of more truly radical constitutional and political changes we need. Undoubtedly many voted for, and take an interest in, devolution with some assumption that Wales's radical/progressive tradition might come to fruition once sufficiently freed from London domination. The last thing we need is for the Assembly to merely pursue a politics modelled on the Westminster norm, albeit at a provincial level. Bringing into the world just another boring old chanber 'Representative Liberal Democracy' on the Westminster model is to sell-out certain long-held Welsh aspirations.

On the other hand, however, I think that for Cardiff-based democracy to grow in depth and potential some extra powers would prove beneficial, lessening accusations of the chamber as a mere talking shop. I am not deluded about that, but I think its at least something positive as opposed to fuck all.



Gavin Bl said:


> sounds like every other election



Its a vote for some degree of constitutional change, so hardly the same as every other election surely?


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## Proper Tidy (Dec 28, 2010)

I would vote yes, but given the question was phased in such a twattish way I won't bother


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## Gavin Bl (Dec 29, 2010)

Flagwaver said:


> Its a vote for some degree of constitutional change, so hardly the same as every other election surely?



You say yourself that its only 'at least something positive as opposed to fuck all' which is pretty much all I said. I see it as a  positive thing, but dont believe it will change life greatly.


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## Badger spotter (Dec 30, 2010)

True Wales stand for a Better Devolution NOT the Status Quo.  They are not aligned with any party, but you would struggle to accurately describe any members as having right wing views. There is a lot on uninformed comment on here that does not portray the truth.  They want a root and branch reform of the current system that has produced a third rate assembley that has wasted millions. Taking power closer to the people is our aim, not to give more to an elite.  There is indeed one member that studied Post Grad Teacher Training in Oxford.  That is hardly part of the "Elite" that composed the roadshow for the Labour Leadership campaign.  Other members come from all walks of life.  My green views have found a home without any conflict, perhaps yours will too

Look at the True Wales website to find out what we are about, there is for us nothing hidden or a financial benefit for any member.  Compare that to the creeping separation by a thousand steps being waged by Plaid and the trough that the AM's have their noses in and you will see there is an honesty that is unusual in politics today..........perhaps because we are ordinary people that care rather than Professional Politicians!


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## lewislewis (Dec 30, 2010)

Can we stop the 'True Wales' multi-poster?


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## Flagwaver (Dec 31, 2010)

Badger spotter said:


> Taking power closer to the people is our aim, not to give more to an elite.......



Closer to the people yeah? In what way exactly?


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## Badger spotter (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, if you lived in Abercwmboi, the movment of power to Cardiff has done nothing that the Welsh Office might have done(populist prescription charges excepted) If you look at what has been achieved in recent years as Wales tumbled down the rankings, you will see that we dont need more of the same.  Did the system that gave the unelected Mike the German influence for many years suffer a great loss when the Gold Digger retired to another trough........only to be replced at it by his wife.

It is the whole system that allows this that needs to be changed.  The current system allows parties to choose AMs and as a result gives them too much power and weakens any dissenting voices.  Trish Law came to be as a result of a party throwing its weight around, so people are not in love with the current system.  It also gave rise to the Party having to choose between three people that have never had a real job to lead them.

I will pretend that she was a roaring success, but a system that alows people to vote people out as well as in would be a good simple start.

Secondly seperate elections for a seperate small supervisory comittee that only meet in public. Able to throw out disasters like the techniums when they are ill concieved.  This is not too disimilar to the system in German Industry. 

My whole point in being vague here is that whilst I am not short of ideas, I have no wish to impose one particular system. It is for the people to debate and choose, somthing that has not happened lately and this Referendum does little to improve the situation either.


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## Silurian (Jan 1, 2011)

Official launch is at the Atrium, 4.1.2011 at 5:30.

I will be in the Vulcan before and aft, with an offer of a free pint for any U75 faces!


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## Flagwaver (Jan 2, 2011)

Badger spotter said:


> *Mike the German *



May I assume that you are no friend of the Angles &/or Saxons?




			
				Badger spotter said:
			
		

> It is the whole system that allows this that needs to be changed.  The current system allows parties to choose AMs and as a result gives them too much power and weakens any dissenting voices.  ... what better devolution would involve is some better form of scrutiny whereby policy cannot just be decided in closed rooms where political gain for each member of the coalition is traded.



Some of what you say I really rather like. You've backed the wrong horse in going for the No vote, however. Even if the results of the March referendum was a resounding thumbs-down to scrapping the LCO system, I would not fancy carrying the public responsibility for having contributed to the negative vote, whilst then attempting to push forward the 'radical Left' agenda you claim for yourself. 

I happen to read the title of True Wales not as some 'truthful representation' of Welsh people and their opinion, but as a manifestation of loyalist Wales: 'True to the Crown'. I expect very many Welsh people see it that way. The March referendum is, as Proper Tidy rightly says, nothign to do with your vaguely outlined agenda, and to vote No to further powers would be forever seen as a resoundingly anti-Welsh gesture for anyone wanting to pursue changes further down the line. 

Are you sure True Wales is the place for you? I would maybe recommend something like *Newid* as a likelier and more pointed outlet for your interests (if they'll have you).      




			
				Badger spotter said:
			
		

> My whole point in being vague here is that whilst I am not short of ideas, I have no wish to impose one particular system.


 No wish to impose your own system? So very lenient; you spoil us! 

I agree with your general assertion however that what we currently have is an incredibly inefficient way of generating new ideas and useful thinking on all the important issues facing Wales. Voting no to further legislative powers won't fix that.




			
				Badger spotter said:
			
		

> I have fully paid up radical credentials.... visited USSR under Breshnev..


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## lewislewis (Jan 2, 2011)

Badger spotter said:


> It is the whole system that allows this that needs to be changed.  The current system allows parties to choose AMs and as a result gives them too much power and weakens any dissenting voices.  Trish Law came to be as a result of a party throwing its weight around, so people are not in love with the current system.  It also gave rise to the Party having to choose between three people that have never had a real job to lead them.
> 
> I will pretend that she was a roaring success, but a system that alows people to vote people out as well as in would be a good simple start.


 
You are confused. The Trish Law incident happened *because of the Labour party's internal selection procedures*.

It had *nothing* to do with the Assembly or the Assembly's electoral system.

Peter and Trish Law were both constituency AMs, not regional list/PR AMs. 

The people of Blaenau Gwent rejected the New Labour clone and voted, rightly or wrongly, for Trish Law, pretty resoundingly.


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## bendeus (Jan 3, 2011)

lewislewis said:


> And so far, the kind of politics I lean towards have been advanced by having that institution. I feel there's a qualitiative institutional difference between the Assembly and Westminster and i'll vote to reaffirm that.


 
This.


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## Badger spotter (Jan 3, 2011)

*There is actually much to agree upon*

I appreciate the last few attempts to be constructive in the debate, as in all areas of life it makes progress possible.

Before addressing the points recently raised I will accept that amongst a large area of those leaning to the left there is a big perception issue for True Wales to get over.  Rather like immigration being claimed by the far right and legalisation of drugs by the Liberal Left it prevents serious debate. A similar situation has occurred with criticism of poor performance at the WAG being associated the far right too. With all for main parties all wanting more power because of a unique alignment of interests, it leaves a non aligned group of people to shout out about what we see being condoned by the main parties. 

I will now try to address some of the points raised.

FW

I have no time for Mike German especially after hearing him defend the expense situation during a perhaps an unguarded moment 18 months ago. Pleading poverty before he drove off in his Merc. Being a list AM he had absolutely no mandate to decide WAG policy.

It can appear a negative stance at times, which is why we are not happy with the precise question being asked.  It is however all we as relatively small grouping have work with.  We can point out some very serious failures as a reason for taking stock and not giving more power to a set-up that has taken us to where we are. My personal view on a way forward is of little issue, I want a real debate that is not the preserve of the current elite.  I think many of those that that currently raise issue with True Wales do so only because of  what the media has portrayed us to be. On the issues of underperformance, policy for political gain, scrutiny and ill conceived waste there is much common ground. Voting systems make many feel uneasy too.  I just don’t see all these being addressed any time soon with a yes vote, but a no will change the game entirely.

To a point I cannot argue with how you read True Wales as your perception is a very personal thing.  All I can say is that there not any loyalty to a crown to be found amongst us.  If there was I would feel most uncomfortable. After shouting "off with their heads" as loudly as any a few weeks ago, any loyalty is to the ordinary people that live on this island that currently get a poor deal in life and are part of a society that preserves the privilege of a few. An institution having power (or more in the case of Wales) does not in itself lead to improvements.  Until the structure altered, I fear for more of the same which will have us as a nation in the gutter again as we were in the 80's. We have a regional economy (or essentially three if you want a little more precision- North, South, the rest.)more dependent on public spending than any other area of the UK.  This life support system is about to be choked as the cuts kick in.  We are for the time being still seeing the tail-end of the Labour capital projects, but as has recently been see with ruthless(at times-Harrier, senseless) defence cuts this going to change drastically.  There has been no sizeable commercial or industrial expansion for 10 years or more beyond Admiral and even that resounding success does not provide the unskilled and semi-skilled jobs Wales so desperately needs.  Where else do you go to try to obtain the change so desperately needed?  I could have worked with the Green party, but without even a councillor in Wales being right starts to seem like "right on” indulgence whilst the economy burns and the environmental/sustainability change we so desperately need moves at a snail’s pace.

  Finally voting no is a readily available means to an end.  At some stage, not too far off I would like the people to feel empowered to a far degree than is now the case.  I just don't see a yes getting us there.  I don’t see anything changing, just the prescription politicians continuing our own farce of First Ministers Questions etc when we are fobbed off as truly dreadful performance(education for instance) is portrayed as success.    

Ps Just trying to point out that I have looked a few alternative systems close up, where unfortunately Marx seems to end up as 1984.


LL 

Thank you for politely trying to guide me.  I did and do understand what happened with Trish Law and agree with what you say totally.  My point which after reading again still reads correctly, is that the Assembly electoral system gives parties not the people strength(which they can at times see and don’t like).  The Labour party has lost touch with the voters it should be representing.  We had the road show beauty contest with a group that have never lived on "our" world.  Being born into a privileged position does not make you a bad person, but it does prevent you from fully understanding the reality of ordinary people’s lives.  With the Tories this manifested itself with it must be said the well meaning Ian DS making a complete ass of himself by telling the people of Merthyr about the practicalities of working in Cardiff's cleaning jobs. If he fails to understand, I don’t see the rest of the Premier Public School/Oxbridge educated cabinet doing any better. 

Bendeus

At first glance you are correct, but look a little deeper and find that an in-built Labour majority does not guarantee good policy and decision making for the vast majority.

Hopefully I will get the hang of the quote system if I need to post again.


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## ddraig (Jan 3, 2011)

tl:dr
boring!


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## lewislewis (Jan 4, 2011)

Badger spotter said:


> A similar situation has occurred with criticism of poor performance at the WAG being associated the far right too.



The problem is that you want to criticise the Welsh Government, but you are choosing the wrong election. The Yes vote is also backed by parties that are NOT in the Government and can't be held to blame for what you see as 'poor performance'. It's backed by parties who don't even have AMs like the Greens, CPB, and the Socialist Party. You can hardly accuse them of being part of the elite or the Cardiff Bay establishment!

Furthermore, because people on this forum tend lean to the left, and the Welsh Government when Labour and Plaid has been involved has leaned to the left, you are not going to get a receptive audience.

Most people who don't like "WAG performance" are the kind of people that would criticise free prescriptions, the Welsh language, low tuition fees, and general welfarist policies. Right-wingers.

That is why True Wales is viewed as an inherently right-wing organisation.

And of course, judging the Welsh Government's performance is done at a Welsh election in May. You can even vote for the parties that aren't in the Assembly yet like the Greens or Communists, or you can spoil your ballot and reject every party.

Judging Government performance in a referendum on the powers of the Assembly is irrational!



Badger spotter said:


> I just don’t see all these being addressed any time soon with a yes vote, but a no will change the game entirely.



You will not get the government changed or the voting system changed with a No vote. It's a regressive vote. It's a step backwards. The progressive gains we have achieved would be at risk because i'm certain Plaid would take a massive hit if Wales voted No, maybe even an existential blow. The Tories would gain.



Badger spotter said:


> To a point I cannot argue with how you read True Wales as your perception is a very personal thing.  All I can say is that there not any loyalty to a crown to be found amongst us.  If there was I would feel most uncomfortable. After shouting "off with their heads" as loudly as any a few weeks ago, any loyalty is to the ordinary people that live on this island that currently get a poor deal in life and are part of a society that preserves the privilege of a few. An institution having power (or more in the case of Wales) does not in itself lead to improvements.  Until the structure altered, I fear for more of the same which will have us as a nation in the gutter again as we were in the 80's. We have a regional economy (or essentially three if you want a little more precision- North, South, the rest.)more dependent on public spending than any other area of the UK.  This life support system is about to be choked as the cuts kick in.  We are for the time being still seeing the tail-end of the Labour capital projects, but as has recently been see with ruthless(at times-Harrier, senseless) defence cuts this going to change drastically.  There has been no sizeable commercial or industrial expansion for 10 years or more beyond Admiral and even that resounding success does not provide the unskilled and semi-skilled jobs Wales so desperately needs.  Where else do you go to try to obtain the change so desperately needed?  I could have worked with the Green party, but without even a councillor in Wales being right starts to seem like "right on” indulgence whilst the economy burns and the environmental/sustainability change we so desperately need moves at a snail’s pace.



I don't recognise this at all. I have been involved in sustainable politics and Friends of the Earth since before I was a Plaid supporter. The Assembly has given us a new forum for our ideas. The policies on recycling, waste are better in Wales than anywhere else in the UK. There are still massive problems, obviously, still incinerators and issues with energy (the Assembly doesn't have power over energy either). But you'll find the environmental movement, such as it is, very favourable towards devolution.

You'll also find the Green party strongly in favour of a Yes vote.

I'm sorry but I support defence cuts. Rather that than welfare cuts. Not that this is ANYTHING to do with the referendum!



Badger spotter said:


> Finally voting no is a readily available means to an end.  At some stage, not too far off I would like the people to feel empowered to a far degree than is now the case.  I just don't see a yes getting us there.  I don’t see anything changing, just the prescription politicians continuing our own farce of First Ministers Questions etc when we are fobbed off as truly dreadful performance(education for instance) is portrayed as success.



You don't see a Yes vote changing anything? A Yes vote means we get the affordable housing measure becoming law, it was blocked previously by Westminster. A Yes vote means we get the FBU's fire sprinklers measure becoming law. Westminster won't legislate on it- both Tories and New Labour rejected it. The FBU gets a better hearing in Wales and our government agrees that all new housing should have sprinklers. A small change, a miniscule law at a tiny cost to developers, but it will save an average of 20 lives in Wales per year. 

In the future the laws could be different. But for now, the tactical perogative for socialists is clearly to get a 'Yes' vote.



Badger spotter said:


> Thank you for politely trying to guide me.  I did and do understand what happened with Trish Law and agree with what you say totally.  My point which after reading again still reads correctly, is that the Assembly electoral system gives parties not the people strength(which they can at times see and don’t like).  The Labour party has lost touch with the voters it should be representing.  We had the road show beauty contest with a group that have never lived on "our" world.  Being born into a privileged position does not make you a bad person, but it does prevent you from fully understanding the reality of ordinary people’s lives.  With the Tories this manifested itself with it must be said the well meaning Ian DS making a complete ass of himself by telling the people of Merthyr about the practicalities of working in Cardiff's cleaning jobs. If he fails to understand, I don’t see the rest of the Premier Public School/Oxbridge educated cabinet doing any better.



I agree that Labour is out of touch. I think they're a party wedded to imperialism, big business and war crimes! A 'No' vote gives their MPs even more influence over Wales. Don't do it!

I agree on Iain Duncan Smith- did you hear him being denounced in the Assembly when he made those comments? On the IDS issue when he slated working class people in Merthyr the majority of Assembly politicians were on OUR side. The majority of Westminster MPs were on IDS' side. Can you see the logic of a Yes vote? And further, of socialists and trade unions strengthening their hand and their influence over Assembly politicians by being seen to be advocating a Yes vote?

I don't think you're a bad person at all and having taken time to read your posts, I am ready to accept that you're not being devious or lying. I seriously think you have been misled and because of a dislike of politicians (which just about everyone in Wales shares!) you have been drawn to a regressive and right-wing cause. A 'No' vote gives Westminster more power over Wales.

You have been misled and are probably not a bad guy at all. You need to seriously take a look at the political implications of a No vote. A Yes vote is actually the more radical option, particularly as the Tories can probably never win here. The No vote is not an anti-politician vote, it is effectively a vote in support of Westminster and it's influence over Welsh legislation.

There is a wider life beyond politics- the cuts agenda is even more important than this referendum, no doubt about it, and needs to be engaged with no matter what laws are passed or what politicians do or say, be they AMs, MPs or whoever. But as a progressive gain a 'Yes' vote would be worthwhile and would strengthen the hand of politicians in Wales that can be influenced by sections of the left like the unions, campaigners, environmental groups.


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## Karac (Jan 7, 2011)

What a total load of shit.
This  English based UKIP Muppet is up to this 7 days a week on icwales messageboard news -


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## Badger spotter (Jan 8, 2011)

*Inspector Frost*

After being so impressed by your considerable deduction skills.  I would have advised you help solving the murder of the poor girl in Bristol if it was not such a serious, sad matter

To enable you to become a little wiser:  I was born in and have lived in Wales for most of my life, always voted Labour or when able Green.  I have never heard of or visited the web site you inhabit and having a full life that does not need to resort manual pleasure, never intend to either.

It is possible to extrapulate the riddle that is my name to find out precisely where I live.  I will however sleep soundly aware that your intellect precludes you bothering me for a stimulating dabate 

Kojack, I hope you are representative of the calibre of the people leading the arguement for a "yes" my task has become so much easier!

There are others on here that have my utmost respect for trying to debate with dignity even when they profoundly disagee.  You do not yet fit in that category and I am not holding my breath as I wait.


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## lewislewis (Jan 14, 2011)

Well the Yes campaign is well underway. Very inoffensive stuff, seems professional without looking "slick". We had 300 people at the launch in Cardiff (mostly Assembly political types), but then outside Cardiff it's been much more real, alot of union people, people from charities etc. 200 people at Swansea, 50 at Newport, 100 at Wrecsam, 100 at Llanelli, 50 in Port Talbot, 70 in Neath, 50 in the Cynon and even 20 in Monmouth! 

The No side has done bugger all.

I think we're heading for an easy 'Yes' win but a very low turnout because of the narrowness of the law-making change on offer, the general disillusionment with politics and the paucity of Welsh media.


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## ddraig (Jan 14, 2011)

Off Topic

sad to see Gwenllian resigning from Riverside in Cardiff, do you know if Gwenllian will still be in her other position in Plaid?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cardiff/2011/jan/14/riverside-byelection-gwenllian-lansdown-resignation
good luck to her whatever the plan is!


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## lewislewis (Jan 15, 2011)

ddraig said:


> Off Topic
> 
> sad to see Gwenllian resigning from Riverside in Cardiff, do you know if Gwenllian will still be in her other position in Plaid?
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/cardiff/2011/jan/14/riverside-byelection-gwenllian-lansdown-resignation
> good luck to her whatever the plan is!



Looks like she's moving to mid Wales!

There will probably be a by-election for Riverside then, maybe on the same day as the referendum.


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## ddraig (Jan 15, 2011)

there is a by election and i think the timing of the resignation is so that it ties in with the referendum vote


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 15, 2011)

What would peoples thoughts be about actually trying to get an all-Wales meeting together of the various anti-cuts groups? Just floating an idea like. But the assembly and the welsh govt do seem more susceptible to pressure from the working class compared to the UK generally, so a Welsh national lobby wouldn't be a bad idea...


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 15, 2011)

Whoops, wrong thread


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## jannerboyuk (Jan 17, 2011)

ddraig said:


> there is a by election and i think the timing of the resignation is so that it ties in with the referendum vote


 
Is that because plaid think their vote is stronger when combined with national powers referendums?


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## Ben Bore (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't know how much to read into this, but on my street (in Canton) on the weekend, Labour and the Green Party were canvasing for the the Assembly elections, while Plaid Cymru activists were distributing 'Yes' leaflets.


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## lewislewis (Jan 18, 2011)

jannerboyuk said:


> Is that because plaid think their vote is stronger when combined with national powers referendums?


 
Yes. Because most of Plaid's support will turn out for the referendum, whereas some of Labour's voters will stay at home. I'd rather they come out though- I care more about devolution than Plaid holding a specific council seat, to be honest!


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## jannerboyuk (Jan 18, 2011)

lewislewis said:


> Yes. Because most of Plaid's support will turn out for the referendum, whereas some of Labour's voters will stay at home. I'd rather they come out though- I care more about devolution than Plaid holding a specific council seat, to be honest!


 
Fair points lewislewis. Personally i think plaid should dump their cardiff county council alliance with the libs quick smartish. It will be interesting to see how the collapse of the lib vote in wales will impact on various elections. I kinda think plaid will benefit rather then seeing a swing back to labour, at least for now.

I agree with you on the devolution vote as well, although i think true wales are making such a hash of the no campaign it's hard to see any momentum being built against.


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## lewislewis (Jan 19, 2011)

jannerboyuk said:


> Fair points lewislewis. Personally i think plaid should dump their cardiff county council alliance with the libs quick smartish. It will be interesting to see how the collapse of the lib vote in wales will impact on various elections. I kinda think plaid will benefit rather then seeing a swing back to labour, at least for now.
> 
> I agree with you on the devolution vote as well, although i think true wales are making such a hash of the no campaign it's hard to see any momentum being built against.



I hope you're right- the opinion polls suggest those Lib Dem voters will go to Labour rather than Plaid.

I don't get the coalition with the Lib Dems. I don't think it has damaged Plaid though, in the wards they hold it's enabled them to get "favours", things fixed etc.


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## jannerboyuk (Jan 20, 2011)

lewislewis said:


> I hope you're right- the opinion polls suggest those Lib Dem voters will go to Labour rather than Plaid.
> 
> I don't get the coalition with the Lib Dems. I don't think it has damaged Plaid though, in the wards they hold it's enabled them to get "favours", things fixed etc.


 
Yeah i don't people mind coalitions at all if they get things moving, it's the broader picture thats going make it sting if labour can do vote plaid get libs effectively then to people that will start to mean 'clegg cuts'. Local politics always loses out to national politics in the end.


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## ddraig (Jan 20, 2011)

so are the No campaign just being childish here or what? 



			
				bbc said:
			
		

> The absence of official campaigns in the Welsh assembly powers referendum would be a "sad day for politics", a prominent AM said.
> 
> A group calling for a No vote has said it does not want official status as a lead campaign.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12240621


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## lewislewis (Feb 3, 2011)

The official 'True Wales' twitter feed today referred to Plaid Assembly Members being "bum chums" of the education minister Leighton Andrews.

I wish they'd fuck off.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 3, 2011)

lewislewis said:


> The official 'True Wales' twitter feed today referred to Plaid Assembly Members being "bum chums" of the education minister Leighton Andrews.
> 
> I wish they'd fuck off.


 
I'm happy for them to continue. They're busily destroying the 'no' campaign more efectively than anyone else!


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## bonathanjishop (Feb 5, 2011)

Flagwaver said:


> Would be interested to hear any strong arguments against voting Yes.


 
25 hours ago I was convinced I'd be voting no, then I had a vision, a dream of getting back the freedom of the people of Wales and Freemen of Llantrisant like me back. Sorry to link to it yet again, but I have put it on my blog, and have sent it to the Western Mail:
<editor: spam removed>

My opinions are just as valid as anyone else's, but as you can see from the links below I have been writing about it since 2002, and even sent a submission to the Richards Commission, which was the inquiry into Assembly powers:

<editor: spam removed>
http://www.richardcommission.gov.uk/content/evidence/responses/bishopj/index-e.htm

I'm not putting there links here to promote my site or force my opinion on to you, you can make up your own minds. Reading my my posts might help you. If you look at what other people sent in to the Richards Commission and read for yourself the powers the Assembly currently has (Part 3 and Schedule 5) and the powers it will have in the event of a yes vote (Part 4 and Schedule 7) in the Government of Wales Act, that should help you make up your mind too:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/32/contents

I believe information should be free and the public should know what a politician really believes so they can make their mind up in an informed way rather than being given half truths like most politicians give. That's why every opinion I've argued for since 2002 is on my blog for all to see - The public can hold me to account without having to have access to something like LexisNexis. I'd like a level playing field, so other politicians are made to be as open as me, so instead of the public voting for someone else because they don't like my opinions, they will be able to weigh up whether they prefer what I believe over what my opponents actually believe. I want every person standing for public office in the UK to be required to publicly say whether they agree or disagree with the answer with each question on the UK Citizenship test, and disclose every protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 they have. Bishop v. Powell (2006) proves this is legal. No hiding anymore - just the truth. And I think the public should be able to have a recall election if they have been found to have lied about these, or break the Nolan principles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Standards_in_Public_Life

The only way we can stop the politicians putting their party's and their interests before public. Did you know that I applied to be on Labour list of potential parliamentary candidates because I didn't want to lie and rule out the possibility of voting against the whip - you all know how strong I hold my opinions, and as a scientist I will only change my considered options if I'm provided with convincing evidence, not if people or parties try to force me. All the Labour MPs in parliament have been asked by the Labour Party if they would ever vote against the whip. I can only assume that because they got to stand for election, that they said they wouldn't.

Sorry for rabbiting on, but I hope you find those links useful in informing your decision.


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## Flagwaver (Feb 6, 2011)

Thank you, Jonathan Bishop, for that. I noticed on your website a reference to your having a disability - would I be able to detect what it might be through your writings online, or is it something more physical? 

You have a buoyant air!


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## bonathanjishop (Feb 7, 2011)

Flagwaver said:


> Thank you, Jonathan Bishop, for that. I noticed on your website a reference to your having a disability - would I be able to detect what it might be through your writings online, or is it something more physical?
> 
> You have a buoyant air!



Thanks Flagwaver. I have High Functioning Autism which makes me super-brainy but not very good at reading others body language, tone of voice, or emotional reactions. I am hoping however, that through the doctorate I am doing, I will be able to use my abilities and working with experts to develop a system to overcome my disabilities:
http://www.dcot.org.uk/?page_id=23. There is not much info on that page, as I hope to patent it, and make millions with my private firm which will give 9% of the profit to my social enterprise so I can regenerate the area where I currently live. David Cameron talks the talk about the Big Society - I've already done it!


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## editor (Feb 8, 2011)

jonathanbishop said:


> Thanks Flagwaver. I have High Functioning Autism which makes me super-brainy but not very good at reading others body language, tone of voice, or emotional reactions. I am hoping however, that through the doctorate I am doing, I will be able to use my abilities and working with experts to develop a system to overcome my disabilities:
> http://www.dcot.org.uk/?page_id=23. There is not much info on that page, as I hope to patent it, and make millions with my private firm which will give 9% of the profit to my social enterprise so I can regenerate the area where I currently live:
> <editor: spam removed>
> 
> David Cameron talks the talk about the Big Society - I've already done it!


All you're doing now is spamming your URLs and using these _community discussion boards_ as a vehicle to selfishly promote yourself and exploit this site's popularity to elevate your search engine rankings.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 8, 2011)

With respect, I'm not sure HFA makes you or anybody else 'super brainy'. It's not how it works. It's not a superpower, it doesn't compensate for a lack of emotional awareness by giving you super-strength elsewhere.


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## Flagwaver (Feb 8, 2011)

jonathanbishop said:


> Thanks Flagwaver. I have High Functioning Autism which makes me super-brainy but not very good at reading others body language, tone of voice, or emotional reactions.



I was expecting you to berate me for suggesting you had Aspergers or similar, but it seems I've come-up trumps!

Interesting blog btw.


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## bonathanjishop (Feb 12, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> With respect, I'm not sure HFA makes you or anybody else 'super brainy'. It's not how it works. It's not a superpower, it doesn't compensate for a lack of emotional awareness by giving you super-strength elsewhere.



That's not what autsim expert Professor Simon Baron-Cohen says; according to him there is a trade-off between one's systemising quotient and ones empathising quotient.



editor said:


> All you're doing now is spamming your URLs and using these _community discussion boards_ as a vehicle to selfishly promote yourself and exploit this site's popularity to elevate your search engine rankings.



Let's look at the evidence shall we Ed?:
http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=ps...&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=ab973845bb407e61
I easily out-rank Urban75.net for searches on the Welsh Assembly, thank you very much. Also, in only the last few days, many people have got to my website through terms relating to the referendum.

Ed, I think you should adopt similar policies to Wikipedia, such as this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AGF

How about you set up a poll to ask those engaged in the discussions on the Assembly and AV referendums whether they found my links helpful? 

My opinion is in order for there to be an effective public sphere where unlike the days when only the bourgeoisie got to discuss current affairs in public cafes, everyone should have access to all the information they need to make decisions for themselves. Surely you should be pleased that thanks to me, the users of your board now have access to the information that the ruling classes know about but the public generally don't?


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## rollinder (Feb 12, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> With respect, I'm not sure HFA makes you or anybody else 'super brainy'. It's not how it works. It's not a superpower, it doesn't compensate for a lack of emotional awareness by giving you super-strength elsewhere.


 
if it does I want a refund seeing it hasn't worked for me (officially diagnosed by another expert, still managed to fail most of my exams and can only just add up)


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## bonathanjishop (Feb 12, 2011)

rollinder said:


> if it does I want a refund seeing it hasn't worked for me (officially diagnosed by another expert, still managed to fail most of my exams and can only just add up)


 
You didn't fail you're exams - the system failed you.


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 13, 2011)

Just because I dress like this
It doesn't make me a communist


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## Badger spotter (Feb 19, 2011)

*The Left says NO!*

For the self-indulgent amongst you, read below and think it through fully.  The thinking as opposed to the lead left are saying NO!


http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004283


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 19, 2011)

Badger spotter said:


> For the self-indulgent amongst you, read below and think it through fully.  The thinking as opposed to the lead left are saying NO!
> 
> 
> http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004283


 
Bollocks though innit


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## Karac (Feb 19, 2011)

Weakly wanker are a group of totally irrelevant nobjobs


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## Proper Tidy (Feb 19, 2011)

Far left Sun innit


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## lewislewis (Feb 20, 2011)

Lenin's warning of infantile pretensions is as relevant as ever.


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## lewislewis (Feb 24, 2011)

Just used my postal vote to vote YES.


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## mwgdrwg (Mar 3, 2011)

Today's the day folks, vote!


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## Silurian (Mar 3, 2011)

mwgdrwg said:


> Today's the day folks, vote!


 
Tomorrow's the day for results though. Could anybody offer an estimate for roughly what time the final count comes in? I can't hang around at the Eli Jenkin all day long, after all.


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 4, 2011)

Judging by how quiet the polling stations were, the turnout is going to be shit. Is there a minimum?


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## ddraig (Mar 4, 2011)

between 60-70% yes is my guess


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## Ranbay (Mar 4, 2011)

I forgot to go and vote, but i would have voted YES


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## Ranbay (Mar 4, 2011)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/9413995.stm


1216 Time to recap. Two results in so far: Blaenau Gwent and Denbighshire, which both voted Yes. Helen Mary Jones, Plaid Cymru AM, says Denbighshire is "a very positive sign". Could be a result from Conwy in the next 15 minutes. We think average turnout so far is about 35%. Stay with us through the day for all the latest.



1211 More intriguing gossip about the recount in Merthyr - indications of 65% Yes.


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## ddraig (Mar 4, 2011)

looking good so far


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## teqniq (Mar 4, 2011)

They said it was a very poor turnout when I went to vote late yesterday afternoon - voted yes btw, so here's hoping.


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## Ranbay (Mar 4, 2011)

Could you postal vote on this? i should have postal voted... by the time i got in and made dinner i had forgoten.


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## teqniq (Mar 4, 2011)

R4 news 59.8% Yes 40.2% No. 9 out of 22 results in


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## Ranbay (Mar 4, 2011)

RESULT Vale of Glamorgan votes Yes. Yes: 19,430. No: 17,551


this supprised me ^


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## mwgdrwg (Mar 4, 2011)

61% yes now:

http://referendumresults.aboutmyvote.co.uk/en/default.aspx


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## ddraig (Mar 4, 2011)

B0B2oo9 said:


> Could you postal vote on this? i should have postal voted... by the time i got in and made dinner i had forgoten.


 
oh yes
quite a lot returned as well


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## ddraig (Mar 4, 2011)

monmouth having a partial recount as it is so close


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## ddraig (Mar 4, 2011)

job done! 
target smashed with 3 results to come


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## editor (Mar 4, 2011)

It's an almighty yes, and a reflection of how Wales has changed over the last decade.



> Wales has said a resounding Yes in the referendum on direct law-making powers for the assembly.
> 
> When the last result was declared, all 22 Welsh counties except one - Monmouthshire - backed change. Turnout is provisionally put at 35%.
> 
> ...


Only Englander Monmouthshire voted against, but even then it it was only by a narrow margin of 320 votes, and by 50.6% to 49.4%


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## Placid Casual27 (Mar 4, 2011)

Nice one boys and girls well done Wales


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## Karac (Mar 5, 2011)

editor said:


> It's an almighty yes, and a reflection of how Wales has changed over the last decade.
> 
> Only Englander Monmouthshire voted against, but even then it it was only by a narrow margin of 320 votes, and by 50.6% to 49.4%


 
Its not Monmouthshire its Monmouth-Monmouthshire would have included Newport,Torfaen and Blaenau Gwent-which would have been a resounding YES
Monmouth just squeaked a no vote


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## lewislewis (Mar 7, 2011)

This was a great result for Wales. Turnout was crap but about the same as the referendum to establish the London Assembly. Let's be under no illusions- the powers on their own will not change anyone's lives and we now need a progressive government returned in May.


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## ddraig (Mar 14, 2011)

*now "english Democrats" want Monmouthshire to be proper english*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-12726556



> A political party which wants an English Parliament has called for a referendum on making the Welsh county of Monmouthshire part of England.
> 
> The English Democrats, at their spring conference in Middlesex, say they want the vote to settle the issue.
> 
> ...


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## ddraig (Mar 14, 2011)

new powers kick in after May election
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12679981


> Mr Jones said an order to activate the assembly's new powers will be debated in the Senedd on 29 March.
> 
> It needs the support of a majority of AMs for the new powers to start on election day - 5 May.
> 
> ...


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## lewislewis (Mar 14, 2011)

Legislation I want to see that would be possible under the new powers-

Public access rights legally enshrined in publicly owned forests.

Arriva Trains Wales to be wound up when the contract runs out and replaced with a legally non-profit, ideally worker-owned train company.

STV for local elections.

Train stations and the budgets for them to be taken under the ownership of the Welsh Government.

That kind of thing!


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## Proper Tidy (Mar 14, 2011)

Scrap right to buy should be the first thing


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## Karac (Mar 23, 2011)

"Monmouth MP David Davies told BBC Wales the whole argument was "nonsense."

He said Monmouthshire has always been a part of Wales and was only separated legally to make life easier for Henry VIII.

Mr Davies said just because people in the county voted No to further Assembly powers did not mean they wanted to be a part of England. "
Very rarely agree with a rightwing Tory like David Davies but hes got it right this time


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## MikeMach (Mar 30, 2011)

The English Democrats have tried this one before.  They stood in Monmouth at the last Assembly election in 2007, on a platform of "re-uniting" Monmouthshire with England, and got 2.7% of the vote.

Isn't that enough of a "piss off, no thanks" for them?


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