# ‘March for the Alternative’ - 26th March - London



## fractionMan (Jan 24, 2011)

Just been sent this email by unite:







http://www.unitetheunion.org/marchforalternative

I'm going.  Who else?


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## Belushi (Jan 24, 2011)

I'll be there.


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## fractionMan (Jan 24, 2011)

Transport details here: http://www.coalitionofresistance.or...l-demonstration-against-cuts-26-march-london/


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## fractionMan (Jan 24, 2011)

TUC page: http://www.tuc.org.uk/mediacentre/tuc-18709-f0.cfm
Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=176812472328977

(thanks to where to)


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## Ld222 (Jan 24, 2011)

'Stop the cuts protest' in Derry on Sat 29th Jan.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=156086751108023


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## grogwilton (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm going.


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## Blagsta (Jan 24, 2011)

yep we'll be there


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## BigTom (Jan 24, 2011)

yep me too


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## magneze (Jan 24, 2011)

Yep


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 24, 2011)

Yep!


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## DrRingDing (Jan 24, 2011)

Sounds awful. I'm there!


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## jakethesnake (Jan 25, 2011)

yup, and i'm not bringing the kids


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## Dan U (Jan 25, 2011)

i'll be going, although it's a bit late in the game imo.

a lot of the people that Unite/GMB etc represent - in local authorities at least - will have lost there jobs already by then


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## lopsidedbunny (Jan 26, 2011)

Why are we waiting until March for this demo with the hairy going on in indymedia and bent cops I can't help but wonder if this the day of the march been design to "defused" the roits in central london and as like everything else controlled by the state. Why not a Feb date for the demo what's special about the 26th March date? I am understandably suspicious, anyway I go just for the knees up.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jan 26, 2011)

errr, because that's when this march is, in March. Plenty going on before that!


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## BigTom (Jan 26, 2011)

This date's been around for months now.  If you're impatient there are demos on saturday in London and Manchester called by NCAFC, NUS and EAN.  There is also a CWU (post office) demo in Brum.
there will be a demo against council cuts in Brum on Feb 26th.

I imagine there will be quite a few other decent sized demos between now and March as well.

TUC has been roundly criticised for not holding it sooner, thankfully the student demos have been filling in the gap to some extent, it'll be interesting to see how many people come out this weekend.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2011)

i think i'll give it a miss.


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## fractionMan (Jan 26, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Why are we waiting until March for this demo with the hairy going on in indymedia and bent cops I can't help but wonder if this the day of the march been design to "defused" the roits in central london and as like everything else controlled by the state. Why not a Feb date for the demo what's special about the 26th March date? I am understandably suspicious, anyway I go just for the knees up.


 
It might sound shit, but it's the first non-student mass protest that's been called that has any chance of having loads of people turn up, which means I'll make the trip to london.  The TUC _should_ have made it sooner imo.  It was organised back in october or something, I've no idea why they put it so far in the future.

If there was anything going on round here before then I'd join in.  But there isn't and I'm not up to organising anything myself.


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## fractionMan (Jan 26, 2011)

Yeah, I could have come up this weekend, but family commitments, poor organisation, apathy and despair at making a difference took over.


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## Shevek (Jan 27, 2011)

Whats the alternative? Ed Balls to cut the deficit in 7 years instead of 5? Up the unions!


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## fractionMan (Jan 27, 2011)

what the fuck are you dribbling on about now?


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## Shevek (Jan 27, 2011)

Well the unions are hardly a bastion of radical social change


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## killer b (Jan 27, 2011)

you're hardly a bastion of sentient thought.


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## fractionMan (Jan 27, 2011)

Why don't you order a book on it from the library?  

Off you pop.


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## Megaton (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm coming on a coach down from Birmingham for this, I expect there will be quite a few Unison there with all the cuts.


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## sim667 (Jan 27, 2011)

I might pop along.....

is it likely to be a manic kettling fiasco? Should i be prepared?

I havent been on a march since bush came to visit (2001?) so a bit out of touch :/


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## xes (Jan 27, 2011)

bring sarnies, and empty bottles to fill with piss and chuck at the police


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## killer b (Jan 27, 2011)

sim667 said:


> I might pop along.....
> 
> is it likely to be a manic kettling fiasco? Should i be prepared?


 
Guaranteed, I'd say.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't think the cops will be able to get the kettle on this time... there will be too many of us i reckon (hope)...


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## 8ball (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm considering coming along to this one too.


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## sim667 (Jan 27, 2011)

Suggestions for if i need a shit then?


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## killer b (Jan 27, 2011)

hurl it at the babylon.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 27, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Suggestions for if i need a shit then?


 
Pretend you are pregnant and ask for a copper's helmet


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## xes (Jan 27, 2011)

killer b said:


> hurl it at the babylon.


 
in a paper bag, along with the bottles of piss, I presume. 

In all seriousness, this is a good way to fuck them off when you're kettled. Set up a "toilet" area, let people piss and shit into bags and bottles, and then launch it all at coppers. It's win win.


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## fractionMan (Jan 27, 2011)

sim667 said:


> I havent been on a march since bush came to visit (2001?) so a bit out of touch :/



Yeah, me too.  My last big demo was disarm desi in 2001.


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## creak (Jan 27, 2011)

xes said:


> in a paper bag, along with the bottles of piss, I presume.
> 
> In all seriousness, this is a good way to fuck them off when you're kettled. Set up a "toilet" area, let people piss and shit into bags and bottles, and then launch it all at coppers. It's win win.


 
Except when the cops then start to use their shit-covered shields and batons to inflict dirty wounds on those same protestors.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 27, 2011)

There won't be no kettle! Remember it's the grown-up's turn this time and the cops fucking know it.


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## teccuk (Jan 27, 2011)

Nah it will be too big. Families and Unions. Won't look good if people with prams have to piss in crowds. Should be a nice day. There may be trouble, but i'd bet a tenner on it being pretty localise to one or two parts of the demo. 

I'm going with Union.


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## killer b (Jan 27, 2011)

god, i hope it isn't a 'nice day'. wtf will that accomplish?


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## teccuk (Jan 27, 2011)

killer b said:


> god, i hope it isn't a 'nice day'. wtf will that accomplish?


 
Hmm... that's a good point. I suppose what i mean is you can go and show resistance without getting involved in any trouble. Although i don't have a problem with trouble. 

And what else can we do


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## audiotech (Jan 28, 2011)

Portable toilet. Folds up too.


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## lopsidedbunny (Jan 28, 2011)

> god, i hope it isn't a 'nice day'. wtf will that accomplish?



Remeber the BBC once quoted saying that they aren't interested until something kicks off in a peaceful demo. I suprised that this argument hasn't been used in court yet.


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## jakethesnake (Jan 28, 2011)

Will be a very big demo... something for everyone i hope.


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## yield (Jan 28, 2011)

Egypt protest leaflets have good advice.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/11/01/translated-excerpts-from-egyptian-activists-action-plan/70388/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/27/egypt-protest-leaflets-mass-action
Take food, water and a first aid kit.


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## grogwilton (Jan 28, 2011)

This is going to be BIG. Overheard people I didn't know in the pub today talk about going on it. My union has organised 3 trains from the north east, and sleeper trains are being organised from Scotland. Get everyone you know to go on it.


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## machine cat (Jan 29, 2011)

Been thinking about this one for a while.


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## teccuk (Jan 30, 2011)

It will be massive, but it's a shame it took so long to come. Should of had some smaller / regional demo's leading up to the big one.


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## You'reAToryToo (Jan 30, 2011)

Me and some friends will be making the trip down from Manchester as we have for the student protests in the past, can't wait.


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## Will2403 (Feb 8, 2011)

What happens at 4:30 when the rally ends? People just mill about and then go home?

---

I have what is probably a stupid and most definitely half baked idea that I'd like to run by you guys...

Ok, so there will hopefully be a million people there

The crux of the issue is the erosion of democracy by the multinationals, the city is the base of worldwide tax havens, and home to HQ's of many and the Bank of England.

What are the pro's and con's of getting people to circle one of these key legitimate targets and prevent that company or BoE from operating in that building for... well as long as possible, in my mind I believe this might capture the imagination of people and the dream would be to keep it shutdown for a working week, the march being on a Saturday doesn't help with that really.

I've said before I'm quite new to all this, and it might be a ludicrous and illegal idea.

Is something along these lines possible and worthwhile, could it grow into something bigger?

I think if there is a million people on the street, having them march and the rally, it seems the mass can be utilised further.

---

Inspired by this lecture:

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2011/20110201t1830vHKT.aspx

# The City of London and its Tax Haven Empire
Speakers: Dr Maurice Glasman, Nicholas Shaxson
Chair: Dr Ian Roxan
This event was recorded on 1 February 2011 in Hong Kong Theatre, Clement House
The City of London is an offshore island inside the British nation state, floating partly free from the democratic rules and restraints that bind the rest of us and fed by a network of tax havens around the world. Nicholas Shaxson and Maurice Glasman look at how this secretive network emerged and came to underpin the City's fearsome political and economic powers today. Maurice Glasman, recently appointed Labour Peer and Reader in Political Theory at London Metropolitan University. He is the author of Unnecessary Suffering. Nicholas Shaxson is the author of Treasure Islands: tax havens and the men who stole the world (Bodley Head) and Poisoned Wells, the Dirty Politics of African Oil, an associate fellow of the Royal Institute of International Affairs (Chatham House) and an experienced journalist. Dr Ian Roxan is a Senior Lecturer in Law at the Department of Law at LSE.
Available as: mp3 (37 MB; approx 79 minutes)
Event Posting: The City of London and its Tax Haven Empire


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## Will2403 (Feb 8, 2011)

Also that lecture has some cracking quoteable bits of speech which I will post once I've had some sleep


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## killer b (Feb 8, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> What happens at 4:30 when the rally ends? People just mill about and then go home?


 
storm parliament, summary execution of eric pickles. at least, that's my plan.


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## ernestolynch (Feb 8, 2011)

Wales v England


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## trabant (Feb 8, 2011)

> The crux of the issue is the erosion of democracy by the multinationals



Thats not really the whole problem now is it.


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## Will2403 (Feb 8, 2011)

killer b said:


> storm parliament, summary execution of eric pickles. at least, that's my plan.


 
That's a criminal offence, and hate speech 

Also storming parliament won't work, it will be heavily fortified with stormtroopers 

Haven't really got your thinking brains on today have you?


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## Will2403 (Feb 8, 2011)

trabant said:


> Thats not really the whole problem now is it.


 
Nope  but I'd be doing well to describe the whole problem in a 13 word sentence!

What do you see as more important that that issue?

My view is to strike at the heart of the issue - the cuts, the bank bailouts, fractional reserve lending, inequality, government subservience to corporate interests, the one party system, government complicity with tax evasion all stems from the growing power and influence of big business.


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## temper_tantrum (Feb 8, 2011)

Yup, will be there


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## nino_savatte (Feb 8, 2011)

I'll be there.


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## militant atheist (Feb 8, 2011)

Just heard that all coaches with demonstrators will not be permitted to enter Central London and will be diverted to ..... Wembley.  Dunno' if it's true, but if so that's one hell of a treck to the Embankment.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

Fuck all will happen and I think we all know it.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 8, 2011)

What would _you_ like to happen?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> What would _you_ like to happen?


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 8, 2011)

Stage one needs work yet.


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## quimcunx (Feb 8, 2011)

I'll be there. 

Who will be our Wael Ghonim?


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 8, 2011)

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/02/08/turn-hyde-park-into-tahrir-square-stay-4-1-day/


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## OneStrike (Feb 8, 2011)

I'll be there, there will be too many for the police to deal with, i don't think a million is unrealistic, and there should be enough splinter actions to get involved with should you wish. Not booking a train back on the same day as hopefully it should spin off into events on Sunday.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

I like Mr Bones idea that we occupy somewhere but our climate is not quite so accommodating as Cairo.

We could do it. Hopefully the Vegans can supply some lentils to eat and the hippies some 12v sound systems to keep the spirits high. 

Lots of firewood will be needed.


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## LLETSA (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> I like Mr Bones idea that we occupy somewhere but our climate is not quite so accommodating as Cairo.
> 
> We could do it. Hopefully the Vegans can supply some lentils to eat and the hippies some 12v sound systems to keep the spirits high.
> 
> Lots of firewood will be needed.




And when you've occupied somewhere, and the rest of the country is watching Eastenders, what then?


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## Belushi (Feb 8, 2011)

Hyde Park strikes me as a dumb place to occupy - wouldn't we in effect just be kettling ourselves?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Hyde Park strikes me as a dumb place to occupy - wouldn't we in effect just be kettling ourselves?


 
Which is why I suggest somewhere more high profile.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> And when you've occupied somewhere, and the rest of the country is watching Eastenders, what then?


 
It ought to be more interesting that watching that dogshit.


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## LLETSA (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> It ought to be more interesting that watching that dogshit.




But what happens politically?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

You could fortify UCL well. Then take it from there.


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## LLETSA (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> You could fortify UCL well. Then take it from there.




Take what from there?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> But what happens politically?


 
Come join us and find out.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Take what from there?


 
We can look at the Greece example of having a radical sets of bases as a nucleus of activity and insurrection.


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## LLETSA (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Come join us and find out.





The question 99% of the country would ask is 'join what exactly?'


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

Each other?


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## LLETSA (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> We can look at the Greece example of having a radical sets of bases as a nucleus of activity and insurrection.




Perhaps, but bearing in mind that the UK is not Greece and has a very different political tradition. 

How do you have an insurrection against a well-armed state, equipped with all the latest firepower and methods of defence, when you have no arms yourself?


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## LLETSA (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Each other?




Bit of a vague, hippy answer, that, isn't it?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Perhaps, but bearing in mind that the UK is not Greece and has amuch different political tradition.
> 
> How do you have an insurrection against a well-armed stae, equppied with all the latest firepower and methods of defence, when you have no arms yourself?


 
We have much worse surveillance both physical cctv and also with the likes of FIT. But the Greek's have much more violence of face on the street.

Have you read about the Delta Squads?

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/...jured-in-the-head-by-delta-motorcycle-police/

They are much more likely to fit you up with false evidence. The have tear gas and use it alot.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

The Greek anarchists in relatively small number use the Molotov to great affect. Also they deal with the initial back and forth rushes of the front line riot plod in a much more conscious way than we do here.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

I've got some on video somewhere I'll dig it out. The police rush the front-line anarchos but quick after the panic the anarchist reply with a volley of rots and petrol bombs.


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## LLETSA (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> The Greek anarchists in relatively small number use the Molotov to great affect. Also they deal with the initial back and forth rushes of the front line riot plod in a much more conscious way than we do here.





Maybe, but they are not going to overthrow the state.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Perhaps, but bearing in mind that the UK is not Greece and has a very different political tradition.


well spotted





> How do you have an insurrection against a well-armed state, equipped with all the latest firepower and methods of defence, when you have no arms yourself?


i would have thought that it would start out, as these things so often do, by people rioting and then obtaining arms through raiding arsenals and the like. or it might not be an insurrection like the easter rising but something nearer egypt.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> well spottedi would have thought that it would start out, as these things so often do, by people rioting and then obtaining arms through raiding arsenals and the like..



I would argue that is the embryo of a guerrilla movement rather that the first stages of an insurrection.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> I would argue that is the embryo of a guerrilla movement rather that the first stages of an insurrection.


can be either depends what's done with them


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

An insurrection would be IMO, fighting with what we already had, brick bats, lumps of wood, fists and molotovs.


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## IC3D (Feb 8, 2011)

I would of thought the police would be a bad target for the protesters. I like the idea of a peaceful occupation, its OK to run rings round cops all over town for a couple of hours but one thing that Cairo can inform us about protest is things can happen over time with people joining who were not initially involved or politically active enough to join the initial march. The movement needs to plant some firm roots and get legitimacy.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2011)

IC3D said:


> I would of thought the police would be a bad target for the protesters. I like the idea of a peaceful occupation, its OK to run rings round cops all over town for a couple of hours but one thing that Cairo can inform us about protest is things can happen over time with people joining who were not initially involved or politically active enough to join the initial march. The movement needs to plant some firm roots and get legitimacy.


 
you seem to be relying on the police playing along with you


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## DrRingDing (Feb 8, 2011)

IC3D said:


> I would of thought the police would be a bad target for the protesters. I like the idea of a peaceful occupation, its OK to run rings round cops all over town for a couple of hours but one thing that Cairo can inform us about protest is things can happen over time with people joining who were not initially involved or politically active enough to join the initial march. The movement needs to plant some firm roots and get legitimacy.


 
How many people have died so far in Egypt in the latest insurrections?


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 8, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Bit of a vague, hippy answer, that, isn't it?


 
You're actually making me want to go on this, now.


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## IC3D (Feb 8, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> How many people have died so far in Egypt in the latest insurrections?


 
Egypt VP: Protests cannot be allowed to go on long 

I don't want to draw the comparisn to the nth degree but since when did an A-B do anything, did the Poll tax riots defeat capitalism. The cops aren't going to kill anyone, esp if the media are there and the protests are drawing regular people in.


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## IC3D (Feb 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you seem to be relying on the police playing along with you


 
We can rely on them to kettle us, its a case of shoring up some defences too maybe.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2011)

IC3D said:


> The cops aren't going to kill anyone, esp if the media are there and the protests are drawing regular people in.


oh dear 

you've clearly not seen the footage and pictures from bloody sunday.


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## IC3D (Feb 8, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> oh dear
> 
> you've clearly not seen the footage and pictures from bloody sunday.


 
Don't be a dick  

I would of thought more up for it protesters could hold their ground in London on a Saturday night with a bit of entertainment and get (a few) people to join them on Sunday. people are pissed and worried for the future who won't be on the initial demo.


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## LLETSA (Feb 9, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> well spottedi would have thought that it would start out, as these things so often do, by people rioting and then obtaining arms through raiding arsenals and the like. or it might not be an insurrection like the easter rising but something nearer egypt.


 
So often do in some places but haven't done in relatively stable western societies for some time. Nothing even remotely close to this happened even in events on the scale of France in 1968. 

It's a rather relevant point to say that the British political tradition is somewhat different to Greece's, isn't it? And do you think Britain is like Egypt?


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## LLETSA (Feb 9, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> An insurrection would be IMO, fighting with what we already had, brick bats, lumps of wood, fists and molotovs.


 



Against armed police?


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## IC3D (Feb 9, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> So often do in some places but haven't done in relatively stable western societies for some time. Nothing even remotely close to this happened even in events on the scale of France in 1968.
> 
> Do you think Britain is like Egypt?


 
Pickmans off his medicine, things in this country need to get a lot worse for that. Though the arsenal is to the right of Buck Palace let me know when your tooled up.


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## LLETSA (Feb 9, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> How many people have died so far in Egypt in the latest insurrections?




They're riots, occupations and demonstrations, not insurrections.


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## Will2403 (Feb 9, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Hyde Park strikes me as a dumb place to occupy - wouldn't we in effect just be kettling ourselves?


 


DrRingDing said:


> Which is why I suggest somewhere more high profile.


 


DrRingDing said:


> I like Mr Bones idea that we occupy somewhere but our climate is not quite so accommodating as Cairo.
> 
> We could do it. Hopefully the Vegans can supply some lentils to eat and the hippies some 12v sound systems to keep the spirits high.
> 
> Lots of firewood will be needed.


 

Can we block access to:

Bank of England

Any of the buildings on Canary Wharf

Any of the key buildings in the City?

Any other major international business HQ's


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## DrRingDing (Feb 9, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> They're riots, occupations and demonstrations, not insurrections.


 
Fail. It's a text book insurrection.


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## DrRingDing (Feb 9, 2011)

We need no go areas for the plod much akin to the Polytechnics in Greece.There we can build defences, meet, create synergy and come out fighting.


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## Louis MacNeice (Feb 9, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> We need no go areas for the plod much akin to the Polytechnics in Greece.There we can build defences, meet, create synergy and come out fighting.


 
You are some sort of virtual performance artist; an e-caricaturist?

Louis MacNeice


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## belboid (Feb 9, 2011)

Lots of free transport for this now.  Unite, Unison & GMB members can all get free transport via their union (usually you just ring up regin to book yourself on). many local branchse are doing likewise. Sheffield GMB has filled two coaches already, and they only sent the mailing out last week.  It's gonna be big


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## butchersapron (Feb 9, 2011)

To Wembley?


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## DrRingDing (Feb 9, 2011)

What's the planned route?


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## belboid (Feb 9, 2011)

http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/2011/01/21/locations-announced-for-the-march/


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## butchersapron (Feb 9, 2011)

Are they stopping coaches at wembley?


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## belboid (Feb 9, 2011)

dont think so, certainly doesn't say so on the TUC site which does mention thre'll be different drop off points for different areas (as there will be so many coaches coming)


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## fractionMan (Feb 9, 2011)

I phoned unite and they're not sure.  They say they're aiming for embankment but may end up being diverted to Wembley.


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## fiannanahalba (Feb 10, 2011)

Be great if the protest was in Wembley. Save a lot of unnecessary trudging around and perhaps get some turf souvenirs and a spot of goal post swinging done, before returning north.


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## articul8 (Feb 10, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> Be great if the protest was in Wembley.



Yes it would - just leave me front door and be on the demo already.


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## Will2403 (Feb 10, 2011)

Sorry for reposting this, but I would like some feedback on it.  Thanks  Won't post it again.



Belushi said:


> Hyde Park strikes me as a dumb place to occupy - wouldn't we in effect just be kettling ourselves?


 


DrRingDing said:


> Which is why I suggest somewhere more high profile.


 


DrRingDing said:


> I like Mr Bones idea that we occupy somewhere but our climate is not quite so accommodating as Cairo.
> 
> We could do it. Hopefully the Vegans can supply some lentils to eat and the hippies some 12v sound systems to keep the spirits high.
> 
> Lots of firewood will be needed.


 

Can we block access to:

Bank of England

Any of the buildings on Canary Wharf

Any of the key buildings in the City?

Any other major international business HQ's


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## kenny g (Feb 10, 2011)

It's on a Saturday so the key buildings will be closed till Monday.


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## Will2403 (Feb 10, 2011)

yes, but if people are planning to keep the protests going into sunday, whats another day?


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## Will2403 (Feb 10, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/feb/10/ukuncut-plans-protests-against-banks


> Tax avoidance protesters turn their attention to Britain's banks
> 
> UK Uncut plans to mobilise thousands for day of action next week, timed to coincide with bonus season



Love these guys! Reasons to be cheerful #1 to


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 10, 2011)

Take VAT! 

This Sat - London, Leeds.

Get on it!


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## Kaka Tim (Feb 11, 2011)

any details on the leeds demo?



Mr.Bishie said:


> Take VAT!
> 
> This Sat - London, Leeds.
> 
> Get on it!


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2011)

Incoming PM


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## Urbanblues (Feb 11, 2011)

belboid said:


> Lots of free transport for this now.  Unite, Unison & GMB members can all get free transport via their union (usually you just ring up regin to book yourself on). many local branchse are doing likewise. Sheffield GMB has filled two coaches already, and they only sent the mailing out last week.  It's gonna be big


 
Free transport open to all comers.


----------



## Clint Iguana (Feb 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Are they stopping coaches at wembley?


 
http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/2011/02/07/coach-planning-update/


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 11, 2011)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...Lzln6pdV5K8Tqd4vw?docId=B22483821297350103A00


----------



## treelover (Feb 12, 2011)

New Generation Labour sense being left behind...


----------



## Will2403 (Feb 14, 2011)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&vps=1&jsv=314b&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=209900209959367986363.00049c2d71d7e52cff809

map of potential legitimate targets (or places for regular londoner's to avoid) on march 26th

(work in progress - pm me your email address if you want editing access)


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&vps=1&jsv=314b&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=209900209959367986363.00049c2d71d7e52cff809
> 
> map of potential legitimate targets (or places for regular londoner's to avoid) on march 26th
> 
> (work in progress - pm me your email address if you want editing access)



Good work Will.


----------



## killer b (Feb 14, 2011)

soooo.... urban meet?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 14, 2011)

killer b said:


> soooo.... urban meet?


 
I'm busy until later that afternoon but the tastier bits will be later on.


----------



## fractionMan (Feb 15, 2011)

killer b said:


> soooo.... urban meet?


 
I'd like an urban meet.  I'll probably come up on the unite bus, but I'll not know anyone on it.  

Bus leaves at 5pm though   So I may stay over


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 15, 2011)

not sure if this's already been mentioned, but 


> Disabled People Against Cuts (DPAC) have organised a march to protest against government proposals to cut Disability Living Allowance (DLA).
> 
> The march will take place on 26 March 2011 in London.
> 
> ...




http://www.ukdpc.net/index.asp?GetPress=TRUE&id=142&sid=76&ssid=0&sssid=0


----------



## killer b (Feb 15, 2011)

fractionMan;11518520
Bus leaves at 5pm though :facepalm:  So I may stay over :D[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> That's a bit optimistic... I reckon a lot of coaches are going home lighter than they arrived...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 15, 2011)

tufty79 said:


> not sure if this's already been mentioned, but
> 
> http://www.ukdpc.net/index.asp?GetPress=TRUE&id=142&sid=76&ssid=0&sssid=0



If disabled people are coming from out of London, it maybe that their coach will park at Wembley!

http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/2011/02/07/coach-planning-update/


----------



## Brainaddict (Feb 15, 2011)

Spotted this on indymedia, encouraging people to start picking their targets now - http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/02/474187.html


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Feb 16, 2011)

Yup i'll be there, hoping it will be alot more lively than the anti-cuts one at the Conservative conference, Birmingham.


----------



## Clint Iguana (Feb 18, 2011)

apologies if already posted - but http://www.resist26.org/


----------



## treelover (Feb 18, 2011)

The TUC demo gathers at 11PM! how do they expect people from across the Uk to get there then, especially if they have to disembark in Wembley....


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 18, 2011)

March into the night.


----------



## skitr (Feb 18, 2011)

11am?


----------



## killer b (Feb 18, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> March into the night.


 
coaches leaving at 5 lol.

many of them lighter than they came... the 27th is going to be a bumper day for virgin rail.


----------



## tommers (Feb 19, 2011)

I'll be there.


----------



## Shelfish (Feb 25, 2011)

I'll be there - with my students!


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Feb 25, 2011)

I will be there for the Million People roit whoops sorry March


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm there.


----------



## Mation (Feb 25, 2011)

tommers said:


> I'll be there.


Yep, me too.


----------



## girasol (Feb 25, 2011)

Want to go, but a bit weary of taking a 12 year-old boy with us...


----------



## Mation (Feb 25, 2011)

girasol said:


> Want to go, but a bit weary of taking a 12 year-old boy with us...


Nah - it'll be fine  I've seen loads and known several kids his age on demos...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Feb 28, 2011)

girasol said:


> Want to go, but a bit weary of taking a 12 year-old boy with us...


 
Friends of ours taking kids - more kids the better


----------



## Blagsta (Feb 28, 2011)

We're taking our 3 year old.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 28, 2011)

Well get out of the way when it kicks off?


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 1, 2011)

I is coming with me poll tax T-shirt on I've got old beef to settle  Gonna meet some urbs too so well excited. 

Sleeping bag check
Flask check
Herb Check
Sick note for the following week at work check
Really couldn't give a flying fuck what sort of bovva i get into attitude check


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 4, 2011)

for anyone who'd like to demo but isn't up for the big one, cooltan arts and disability lib are organising a 'largactyl shuffle against the cuts' 



> Saturday 26 March 2011, 12noon
> 
> Start at CoolTan Arts, Finish at Imperial War Museum
> 
> ...



http://www.cooltanarts.org.uk/2011/03/largactyl-shuffle-against-the-cuts/


----------



## classicdish (Mar 4, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Who will be our Wael Ghonim?


We'd have to arrange for one of the mods to get wrongly arrested for taking photos or something, then mount a vocal campaign for their immediate release. They would then have to cry a bit and get a hug from emily maitless on bbc london news and bingo! no more cuts! (or the army takes over or something :s)


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 4, 2011)

I think I trust our army both more than I do Egypt's army or the ConDems.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 5, 2011)

Could someone please explain to me just what Chris Knight thinks he's doing in this letter to the Weekly Worker?

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/letters.php?issue_id=855

Remembering my own years of involvement with direct action, I'd have thought if he wants DA to have a better chance of success, then maybe not writing to the WW online edition and providing locations, plans and times might be a good place to start. I know he's not taken terribly seriously by many, but he really does seem to have had a complete brainfart on this one.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 5, 2011)

Looks like a misinformation campaign, much like Abbie Hoffman and the Yippies in Chicago 1968. Chris Knight does appear to be a cock thought.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> Could someone please explain to me just what Chris Knight thinks he's doing in this letter to the Weekly Worker?
> 
> http://www.cpgb.org.uk/letters.php?issue_id=855
> 
> Remembering my own years of involvement with direct action, I'd have thought if he wants DA to have a better chance of success, then maybe not writing to the WW online edition and providing locations, plans and times might be a good place to start. I know he's not taken terribly seriously by many, but he really does seem to have had a complete brainfart on this one.


 
I think Chris Knight is doing an excellent job of providing information _and_ disinformation. Stretch the resources of the state is the order of the day.


----------



## Santino (Mar 5, 2011)

Is there a role to play for people at home with their computers?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2011)

Santino said:


> Is there a role to play for people at home with their computers?


 
I would say so yes. Use your imagination.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 5, 2011)

If you can't come up with ideas, try this one. Get a London map up on Google. Get a cheap PAYG mobile and make calls to the plod reporting all sorts of terrible actions around London.


----------



## Santino (Mar 5, 2011)

I am shocked. Shocked.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Mar 5, 2011)

Santino said:


> Is there a role to play for people at home with their computers?


 
I intend to whoop the police at their own game by putting the kettle on. Hah!


----------



## BigTom (Mar 5, 2011)

TopCat said:


> If you can't come up with ideas, try this one. Get a London map up on Google. Get a cheap PAYG mobile and make calls to the plod reporting all sorts of terrible actions around London.


 
That is a much better idea than this: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_146591818737668&notif_t=group_activitywww.facebook.com which is calling for people to bombard the media with support for the march.. 
There have also been national troll a tory days alongside the benefits claimants days of action.. 
but TC runs a much better line in mischief I think


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 5, 2011)

I'll hopefully be there.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 8, 2011)

We could have instead of a "Black Block" we could have a "Police Block" and help defend their jobs and pension.


----------



## pootle (Mar 8, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> I'd like an urban meet.  I'll probably come up on the unite bus, but I'll not know anyone on it.
> 
> Bus leaves at 5pm though   So I may stay over




What time does your coach arrive?   I'm meeting some non-urban types at the Lyceum Theatre at about 11am - anyone else fancy it?


----------



## nogojones (Mar 8, 2011)

Will be there. Think its going to be a big one. Even Mrs Jones is coming and shes never been on a demo in her life.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 8, 2011)

nogojones said:


> Will be there. Think its going to be a big one. Even Mrs Jones is coming and shes never been on a demo in her life.


 
You're a disgrace to your name.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 8, 2011)

pootle said:


> What time does your coach arrive?   I'm meeting some non-urban types at the Lyceum Theatre at about 11am - anyone else fancy it?


 Probably.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 8, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> We could have instead of a "Black Block" we could have a "Police Block" and help defend their jobs and pension.


----------



## nogojones (Mar 8, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You're a disgrace to your name.





I'll get Mrs Jones to drive me. I may still be in my PJs.


----------



## magneze (Mar 8, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> We could have instead of a "Black Block" we could have a "Police Block" and help defend their jobs and pension.


 Turns out the student chants of "Your Jobs Next" were quite accurate.


----------



## treelover (Mar 8, 2011)

'I am a parent of a disabled child with an incurable muscle wasting disease called Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy which will rob me of my son before he is an adult. It is disabled children like my gregarious beautiful son who are in the front line of these cuts, they are already having treatment withdrawn such as hydrotherapy. I will be there next month wheeling my little man along the streets of London. Shame on you Cameron and Clegg. Oh to have enough money to employ private respite care and nurses for my son! 

Johanna Jones' 

http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/2011/03/02/why-youre-marching-part-2/

Why we march, very moving...


----------



## audiotech (Mar 9, 2011)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 12, 2011)

13 days & counting


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 12, 2011)

Organised?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 12, 2011)

This one's a corker!


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 13, 2011)

pootle said:


> What time does your coach arrive?   I'm meeting some non-urban types at the Lyceum Theatre at about 11am - anyone else fancy it?


yeah,include me in


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 13, 2011)

Brendan Barber said the other day that the coaches are no longer made to go to Wembley, which is a relief. They are going to Battersea and the Excel centre.  He told us to keep an eye on the website for updates - http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/ - but, having said that, I have just checked, and it seems some people are still being dropped off in Wembley.

Looks like organisers from outside London will really need to keep an eye on what is proposed, so that your folks can be dropped off.

It probably does make sense to be organised about it, in fact - I remember the massive Miners Rally in the 80s which was chaotic, with coaches having to leave without some of their people, in the pouring rain, in fact, because they were not able to park up long enough to wait, because there were so many coaches. The three that I had organised on that occasion were driving round in circles for several hours before we gave up, and went home without a few people.  Hopefully, that won't happen this time, because the internet will really help TUC to organise where people should go.

This is looking HUGE.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 13, 2011)

Rumours from the TUC are that they have thousands of Stewards of many levels.


----------



## kalidarkone (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm in a dilemma about going to this because I'm supposed to be at my mates home birth and she is due on the 26th!!


----------



## FiFi (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm still trying to find out if I have a babysitter for Littl'un!
If I haven't I will not be able to get there


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 13, 2011)

I'm there, STUC have booked three trains and am one the Glasgow one. There's busses galore aswell from up here.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Rumours from the TUC are that they have thousands of Stewards of many levels.


 
I've also heard a rumour of hired thugs (security) being bussed in - a bunch quite happy to flail with their fists.


----------



## FiFi (Mar 13, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> I've also heard a rumour of hired thugs (security) being bussed in - a bunch quite happy to flail with their fists.


 
This is why I'm not intending to take my daughter to the march!
I'll risk a bit of trouble, but I'm not exposing her it.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 13, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Rumours from the TUC are that they have thousands of Stewards of many levels.



That's not a rumour, it's a fact. All the unions have been asked to supply stewards, and they have been appointed and trained into different stewarding roles.


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 13, 2011)

FiFi said:


> This is why I'm not intending to take my daughter to the march!
> I'll risk a bit of trouble, but I'm not exposing her it.


 
I really hope there will not be trouble, for lots of reasons. 

There are expected to be thousands of children on the march.


----------



## You'reAToryToo (Mar 13, 2011)

Guineveretoo said:


> I really hope there will not be trouble, for lots of reasons.
> 
> There are expected to be thousands of children on the march.


 The trouble will occur away from the intended march route.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2011)

**


----------



## You'reAToryToo (Mar 13, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Don't post shit like this FFS. Also, you don't get to choose allright?


 I was just coming back to edit my post to be honest. I'm not promoting the violence and won't be taking part in it however a number of groups are planning to breakaway (and this is public knowledge which the police will know about). In my opinion it's silly however in a way atleast the vulnerable won't be caught up.


----------



## discokermit (Mar 13, 2011)

i'll be there and my brother is coming down for it as well.


----------



## Sean (Mar 13, 2011)

We've gone for a 2 line whip (both Mum and Dad) to insist that all 3 of our kids come. And we're temporarily lifting our swearing ban during the placard production period.


----------



## FiFi (Mar 13, 2011)

Sean said:


> We've gone for a 2 line whip (both Mum and Dad) to insist that all 3 of our kids come. And we're temporarily lifting our swearing ban during the placard production period.


 
How old are your children?
I'm really am in 2 minds about it.

(Littl'un is 12 by the way)


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2011)

Sean said:


> We've gone for a 2 line whip (both Mum and Dad) to insist that all 3 of our kids come. And we're temporarily lifting our swearing ban during the placard production period.


 
Good lad. Shows things are moving. (We'll grasp auto btw)


----------



## Sean (Mar 13, 2011)

One six year-old and two nine year-olds. I know what you mean, but the fuckers want us to be scared of trouble, and we shouldn't be put off marching because of that. Having said that, any sign of trouble and we'll be taking cover in the nearest Wetherspoons


----------



## discokermit (Mar 13, 2011)

FiFi said:


> (Littl'un is 12 by the way)


you'll be fine.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 13, 2011)

BigTom said:


> That is a much better idea than this: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_146591818737668&notif_t=group_activitywww.facebook.com which is calling for people to bombard the media with support for the march..
> There have also been national troll a tory days alongside the benefits claimants days of action..
> but TC runs a much better line in mischief I think



Will take a look. Can't go to the march but firmly in support of the reasons behind it.

Anything else?


----------



## BigTom (Mar 13, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Will take a look. Can't go to the march but firmly in support of the reasons behind it.
> 
> Anything else?



Not yet, though I have seen the suggestion that anyone who can't go could financially support people who can by helping to pay for coach tickets, esp. in the case of benefits claimants or school students who don't have the possibility of a union to subsidise their transport (or anyone in a non-unionised workspace really).. 
Obv. that is dependent on people who have money but can't make it to london for other reasons, and on either knowing people who would like to go or having a local organisation that you could donate to in the knowledge the money will be used to help transport people to london.


----------



## FiFi (Mar 13, 2011)

Sean said:


> One six year-old and two nine year-olds. I know what you mean, but the fuckers want us to be scared of trouble, and we shouldn't be put off marching because of that. Having said that, any sign of trouble and we'll be taking cover in the nearest Wetherspoons


 
As long as Wetherspoons do chips, that might be our bolthole too!


----------



## FiFi (Mar 13, 2011)

discokermit said:


> you'll be fine.


 
That looks like the majority feeling on Urban.
I might have to give the local rep a call to check on travel details.

Littl'un already has already had some suggestions for placards!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 14, 2011)

Sean said:


> We've gone for a 2 line whip (both Mum and Dad) to insist that all 3 of our kids come. And we're temporarily lifting our swearing ban during the placard production period.


 
Snap. We've made it clear to the kids (nearly 11 and 13 years old) that they're going. 

Louis MacNeice


----------



## smokedout (Mar 14, 2011)

> So whatever anyone says, there are no official feeder marches nor any organised in any way in co-operation with the TUC.



http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/2011/03/10/there-are-no-official-feeder-marches/

pricks


----------



## BigTom (Mar 14, 2011)

smokedout said:


> http://marchforthealternative.org.uk/2011/03/10/there-are-no-official-feeder-marches/
> 
> pricks


 
Yeah.  I don't understand this - they said it's so that the main march doesn't have to slow down to integrate feedar marches, but surely the whole point of feeder marches is that hyde park is much bigger than embankment so not everyone can assemble there?

Between this and the coach drop offs, it feels like the TUC is trying to hold this down and fuck it up.

Anyway, we won't let that happen.. 

Ukuncut have called for occupation of Oxford Street, with local groups each adopting a target on oxford street and silmutaneously occupying at 2pm,, leaving at 3:30 to meet up for a big target.
http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/blog/occupy-for-the-alternative


----------



## Balbi (Mar 14, 2011)

Covering their arses I suspect. They've got to have a nice Saturday afternoons walk from one place to another without incident.


----------



## Nice one (Mar 14, 2011)

list of the all various radical things, so far, organsied for the day. Definitely more to come.

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2011/03/14/march-26th-meet-the-anarchists/


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 15, 2011)

LFC Bus


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 15, 2011)

> ...up to 200,000 people are expected to take to the streets of London.



200,000? Who's playing that figure down?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/...nst-government-over-brendan-barber?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2011)

200 000? Miles off.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> 200 000? Miles off.


 
Totally! Is Barber quoting that figure, or the Guardian plucking a random figure from the air?


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 15, 2011)

>LFC Bus 

if you are from the blue part of Liverpool (and can't stand being with red comrades ;-) - there are still coach places left via the News from Nowhere bookshop on Bold Street


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 15, 2011)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> >LFC Bus
> 
> if you are from the blue part of Liverpool (and can't stand being with red comrades ;-) - there are still coach places left via the News from Nowhere bookshop on Bold Street


 
Now now comrade we must put our differences aside for the struggle  

I'm getting the train down Friday night with the Chester City 3 and making a full weekend of it


----------



## treelover (Mar 15, 2011)

It's a bit ironic that it is capitalism that is going to benefit from the 26th: all trains on the Sat from my area are over 80 to 100 pounds now, (they go down after 11) and nearly all hostels are booked up...


----------



## chronotub (Mar 15, 2011)

looking at the face book events for the 25th, seems to be a few online shops springing up selling riot gear

you got something this big going on someones gonna try and make a quick buck


----------



## Frankie Jack (Mar 15, 2011)

Sake.. !!


----------



## weepiper (Mar 15, 2011)

epic lurking.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 15, 2011)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> >LFC Bus


 
Ratcatchers can have a day off then


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 15, 2011)

so which is going to be the best starting point? Lambeth or Mallet Street?


----------



## Dovydaitis (Mar 16, 2011)

hmm, had seen the posters but might just have to go. easy enough for me to get there


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 16, 2011)

Sorry I've been very slow on this but have just looked at the route. I predict serious delays on the embankment due to 'bottlenecks' by Parliament Sq and Downing Street; I'll have to remember to pack extra sandwiches for the MacNeice family.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 16, 2011)

Stewards and legal observers in bed with the met

Fucking shame on these TUC clowns


----------



## BigTom (Mar 16, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Will take a look. Can't go to the march but firmly in support of the reasons behind it.
> 
> Anything else?



DPAC have got something for people who can't be in London, I haven't read through it, email them your protest is the headline..

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2011/03/emai...protesters-on-the-streets-on-26-march-online/

Some kind of solidarity map? I guess it'll end up that you can see where solidarity messages have been emailed from around the country and what they've said..


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 16, 2011)

I think there should be breakaway march on News International (BSkyB and Wapping).


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 16, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> I think there should be breakaway march on News International (BSkyB and Wapping).


 
Organise it!


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 16, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Organise it!


 
I may do that.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 16, 2011)

I've got just over a week to go. I know a load of Scousers were talking about it on another forum.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 16, 2011)

Organise & go for it


----------



## 8ball (Mar 16, 2011)

Ironically due to some health complications I may not be able to make this one but will be cheering everyone on from here in Nottingham (and doing my bit to big y'all up to the meeja ).


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 16, 2011)

Why are people worried the TUC hasn't endorsed the feeder marches? It's a *good* thing - because they are happening anyway and this means they will have no TUC stewards on them 

There are at least two - one from ULU and one from Kennington Park. Any others people know about?


----------



## audiotech (Mar 16, 2011)




----------



## Nice one (Mar 17, 2011)

action map, so far 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2011/03/17/march-26th-action-map/


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 17, 2011)

audiotech said:


>




Top girl X


----------



## Dovydaitis (Mar 17, 2011)

audiotech said:


>




I stand and clap for that lady! hats off to her! on the bus today I was trying to convince people to go


----------



## chronotub (Mar 17, 2011)

weepiper said:


> epic lurking.


 
haha, I joined years ago when I was gonna move to london but never posted

was having a look around the net seeing what was going on on the 26th and it brought me back here


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 17, 2011)




----------



## audiotech (Mar 18, 2011)

For those that can't go there's the 'Armchair Army' (Virtual march 26th March 2011) facebook group.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_146591818737668&ap=1


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 18, 2011)

Smellie Pig New ID U5042 - paint bomb if spotted 

http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2011/03/18/top-ten-nasty-fit-cops/


----------



## audiotech (Mar 18, 2011)




----------



## audiotech (Mar 19, 2011)

'Massive anti-cuts march starts with one man in Cardiff.'

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_e...ex.cfm/id/FD1C21E5-AFCC-4540-A1413C449323BC6A


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

Bought a couple of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PLAIN-RED-FLA.../300349743207?pt=UK_Flags&hash=item45ee3d6067

Plan is to get my mum to stitch them together, and then have a message on both sides (it'd be too see-through with just one flag)

Gonna get some words stitched on, not sure what yet.  I tweeted Richard Murphy to see what he suggests.  You guys got any ideas?











Also got a Che flag!  All 5x3! Hoooj!


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2011)

'death to the lib dems'


----------



## Balbi (Mar 19, 2011)

"GET OFF THE FUCKING STAGE EDWARD"

Might be appropriate.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

hows bout

*POLITICS - NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE!

WE DECLARE OPEN THE
ANARCHIST REPUBLIC OF 
THE GRATE BRUTISH ISLES!*​


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Also got a Che flag!  All 5x3! Hoooj!


 
Che was abit of a dick in real life....didn't you know?


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

killer b said:


> 'death to the lib dems'


 
BORING!


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Che was abit of a dick in real life....didn't you know?


 
shush! he was amazing!

look at this smile! for someone who killed a lot of people, he looks so loveable!


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> shush! he was amazing!
> 
> look at this smile! for someone who killed a lot of people, he looks so loveable!


 
http://libcom.org/history/articles/1928-1967-ernesto-che-guevara



> With the Castroite victory in 1959, Che, along with his Stalinist buddy Raul Castro, was put in charge of building up state control. He purged the army, carried out re-education classes within it, and was supreme prosecutor in the executions of Batista supporters, 550 being shot in the first few months.
> 
> He was seen as extremely ruthless by those who saw him at work. These killings against supporters of the old regime, some of whom had been implicated in torture and murder, was extended in 1960 to those in the working class movement who criticised the Castro regime.
> 
> ...



Lovely man.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

thats one take on events, any of those accusations been proven or corroborated?

i don't know the facts, but he seemed to fight for democracy and civil rights afaik, he may have taken things way too far and he may well have been an arrogant, stubborn arsehole, but he still fought for the right side and that'll do me.

he may well have done terrible things, but maybe we shouldn't judge as we can't walk in his shoes, to lead a bloody rebellion, having to kill or be killed will change a man, the situation those people were in may have led them to carry out unjust acts, you could attribute it to some kind of temporary psychological trauma or maybe they were terrible people, we'll never know.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> thats one take on events, any of those accusations been proven or corroborated?
> 
> i don't know the facts, but he seemed to fight for democracy and civil rights afaik, he may have taken things way too far and he may well have been an arrogant, stubborn arsehole, but he still fought for the right side and that'll do me.
> 
> he may well have done terrible things, but maybe we shouldn't judge as we can't walk in his shoes, to lead a bloody rebellion, having to kill or be killed will change a man, the situation those people were in may have led them to carry out unjust acts, you could attribute it to some kind of temporary psychological trauma or maybe they were terrible people, we'll never know.


 
Locking up left-wing dissidents is not exactly out of character for Leninists, is it?


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00zp2h0/Our_World_Cuba_at_the_Crossroads/

Good little news doc about Cuba undergoing change, many licences being granted for small businesses and looking towards the possible conclusion of the Castro era.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 19, 2011)

joined the armchair army group. If I were in the UK, I'd definitely go. A huge march is certainly going to make a big statement in terms of mass opposition to the cuts, and help legitimise and encourage what people do locally, and any subsequent direct action against the cuts too. Bigger the better, even if it does turn into another conventional A to B march


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> Locking up left-wing dissidents is not exactly out of character for Leninists, is it?


 
I guess not.

If he did those things, then I agree with your views.  He would have made some serious and unforgiveable errors of judgement.

I need more proof though.

What is your overall view of him?


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> joined the armchair army group. If I were in the UK, I'd definitely go. A huge march is certainly going to make a big statement in terms of mass opposition to the cuts, and help legitimise and encourage what people do locally, and any subsequent direct action against the cuts too. Bigger the better, even if it does turn into another conventional A to B march


 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! waste of fucking time that.

my plan is a tent city outside the bank of england til we all get shot!


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> I guess not.
> 
> If he did those things, then I agree with your views.  He would have made some serious and unforgiveable errors of judgement.
> 
> ...



Well, sticking to what are incontrovertible facts.

He did run La Habana prison.
Human rights abuses (including summary executions) did take place there during that time.
Left-wing dissidents were arrested, and were sent there.

Draw your own conclusions. Mine are that he was a fairly orthodox 3rd International capital-c Communist, and that all of the above is fairly run-of-the-mill for such people.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! waste of fucking time that.
> 
> my plan is a tent city outside the bank of england til we all get shot!


 
Go for it.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 19, 2011)

Mark Steel on Che Guevara.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

The organised working class had no role in the Cuban revolution. Consequently, power never passed into the hands of the working class but to a new ruling bureaucracy. It was Stalinist in practise - nationalisations and a planned economy but without accountability to the working class, and repression of critics from the left who, whilst defending the gains made, called for a further revolution to put power into the hands of the Cuban working class. That isn't to dismiss the gains made for the working class in Cuba but neither does it make the Cuban bureaucracy a working class government and it certainly wasn't/isn't socialism. Guevara acknowledged himself that the 26th July Movement and the bureaucracy it created contained many bourgeois elements, yet condemned those calling for a genuine workers' government and/or a w/c revolution. He was a guerrilla, an elitist, who believed cadre could transform society in place of the working class, not that the role of cadre is to provide direction to the working class, engaged in class struggle or carrying through a revolution (which incidentally is where the usual and horrifically simple anarchist critique of vanguardism falls down, by assuming vangaurdism equals the former). 

I don't know why some of the critics of Che focus on the killing and slaying and blood in an abstract sense - he killed people therefore must have been a monster. Which is liberal bollocks. Overthrowing a ruling class is inevitably going to involve a wee bit of blood-letting. It wasn't that he killed, or ordered others to kill. It was that he regarded many working class militants as no different to the defenders of Batista and capitalism, as _the enemies of the Cuban revolution_. His long-held position of placing his revolutionary elite in the role of the working class in practise. It was who he repressed and why he repressed them, not that repression took place.

The repressive, bureaucratic and unaccountable nature of the Cuban government - or regime, or new ruling class - was not a later degeneration, it was the inevitable result of the approach and analysis of the 26th July Movement.

I'm v hungover so this is a bit clumsily expressed but you get my points hopefully.

And I do own a very nice Che ashtray somebody got me from Cuba. It's ace.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> The organised working class had no role in the Cuban revolution. Consequently, power never passed into the hands of the working class but to a new ruling bureaucracy. It was Stalinist in practise - nationalisations and a planned economy but without accountability to the working class, and repression of critics from the left who, whilst defending the gains made, called for a further revolution to put power into the hands of the Cuban working class. That isn't to dismiss the gains made for the working class in Cuba but neither does it make the Cuban bureaucracy a working class government and it certainly wasn't/isn't socialism. Guevara acknowledged himself that the 26th July Movement and the bureaucracy it created contained many bourgeois elements, yet condemned those calling for a genuine workers' government and/or a w/c revolution. He was a guerrilla, an elitist, who believed cadre could transform society in place of the working class, not that the role of cadre is to provide direction to the working class, engaged in class struggle or carrying through a revolution (which incidentally is where the usual and horrifically simple anarchist critique of vanguardism falls down, by assuming vangaurdism equals the former).
> 
> I don't know why some of the critics of Che focus on the killing and slaying and blood in an abstract sense - he killed people therefore must have been a monster. Which is liberal bollocks. Overthrowing a ruling class is inevitably going to involve a wee bit of blood-letting. It wasn't that he killed, or ordered others to kill. *It was that he regarded many working class militants as no different to the defenders of Batista and capitalism, as the enemies of the Cuban revolution. His long-held position of placing his revolutionary elite in the role of the working class in practise. It was who he repressed and why he repressed them, not that repression took place.*
> 
> ...


 
Yet you still have the ashtray.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Yet you still have the ashtray.


 
Yep. Sometimes I drink coca-cola too.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2011)

The other day I went to Mcdonalds.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

I've got Sky.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 19, 2011)

I use multi-nationals all the time, and laugh like fuck while I'm doing it. So what?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2011)

Sorry, you have to die now.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I've got Sky.



You get it free, though, cos you is a poor.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

Let the people know I died with revolution on my lips. And don't tell them about the crying and the shit in my pants.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> You get it free, though, cos you is a poor.


 
I wouldn't actually bother if it was just me, because it is shit and expensive, but shared house innit. Included in the rent.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 19, 2011)

one day we will nationalise coca-cola anyway, so i think you'll be let off. Maybe.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I wouldn't actually bother if it was just me, because it is shit and expensive, but shared house innit. Included in the rent.



When I split up with Mrs. S☼I #1 I moved into a studio flat at the top of a 3 story house next to a park, and the rent was £100 a week which included gas, leccy and council tax. Was taking home £250 a week. Brilliant deal. And I was fucking laid off 6 weeks later.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

cracking post PT 

i learnt a lot from it including two words (cadre and vanguardism - actually i'd learnt vanguardism before, but then forgot it, i'll forget both again i expect, don't think i'll be finding many conversations to squeeze them into  )

so to summarise, che was going in the right direction, but his mentality towards the w/c was fundamentally flawed, in thinking them not capable enough to help themselves and the country, which was possibly a large part of the failure of cuba as a decent left wing system.  along with the castro's having the same mindset.

for fellow dumbasses:
*Vanguardism* is a strategy whereby an organization attempts to place itself at the center of the movement, and steer it in a direction consistent with its ideology.

*Cadre* principally refers to committed people within an organization that form, or have the capacity to form, the backbone of that organization

in conclusion i prefer mark steel's version of history mixed in with a bit of PT's (if u wanna be all gloomy about our hero)

anyhoo, enough about che, these protest shenanigans... anyone wanna pitch up some tents with me in the middle of a busy london street?  can you get underlay for tents?   hehehe, we could get a chant going of underlay underlay arriba arriba and try and channel the spirit of che!


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I've got Sky.


 
http://www.liveonlinefooty.com/

i steal premier league and champions league football!   w00t!

had starview and the box as well. totally 1337 as far as robbin from the murdoch's goes...


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yep. Sometimes I drink coca-cola too.


 
My point is you purposely bought an ashtray with the image of a twat on it(and you know he has locked up lots of working class militants). I buy coca-cola etc as well. But I don't go out my way to buy ashtrays with joe stalin or hitler on them, you get my point. And yes  I did just say hitler =p


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> cracking post PT
> 
> i learnt a lot from it including two words (cadre and vanguardism - actually i'd learnt vanguardism before, but then forgot it, i'll forget both again i expect, don't think i'll be finding many conversations to squeeze them into  )
> 
> ...


 
Are you still gonna be waving his flag after all the shit you have heard about your 'hero'?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> My point is you purposely bought an ashtray with the image of a twat on it(and you know he hass locked up lots of working class militants). I buy coca-cola etc as well. But I don't go out my way to buy ashtrays with joe stalin or hitler on them, you get my point. And yes  I did just say hitler =p


 
I didn't. You may have missed it when I said it was a present. I've never been to Cuba, although I would like to. If I ever do, I'm sure I'll buy some Che tat.

My view of Che is a bit more nuanced than twat/not-twat to be honest. I'd have hoped to have got that across already.

I would defo buy a genuine Nazi ashtray though. It is, after all, an ashtray, not a declaration of support and solidarity.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I didn't. You may have missed it when I said it was a present. I've never been to Cuba, although I would like to. *If I ever do, I'm sure I'll buy some Che tat.*
> 
> My view of Che is a bit more nuanced than twat/not-twat to be honest. I'd have hoped to have got that across already.
> 
> I would defo buy a genuine Nazi ashtray though. It is, after all, an ashtray, not a declaration of support and solidarity.


 
Yet you just go onto admit you would still buy stuff with his face on it. Odd. Also I would never buy a swastika ashtray, but then maybe Im abit odd myself.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 19, 2011)

I have an ashtray with the virgin mary on it. Don't mean i don't masterbates


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> I have an ashtray with the virgin mary on it. Don't mean i don't masterbates


 
I bet you do. Trendy I guess. Good one to impress the hipsters with.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 19, 2011)

Anyway. Marching and that.


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> The organised working class had no role in the Cuban revolution. Consequently, power never passed into the hands of the working class but to a new ruling bureaucracy. It was Stalinist in practise - nationalisations and a planned economy but without accountability to the working class, and repression of critics from the left who, whilst defending the gains made, called for a further revolution to put power into the hands of the Cuban working class. That isn't to dismiss the gains made for the working class in Cuba but neither does it make the Cuban bureaucracy a working class government and it certainly wasn't/isn't socialism. Guevara acknowledged himself that the 26th July Movement and the bureaucracy it created contained many bourgeois elements, yet condemned those calling for a genuine workers' government and/or a w/c revolution. He was a guerrilla, an elitist, who believed cadre could transform society in place of the working class, not that the role of cadre is to provide direction to the working class, engaged in class struggle or carrying through a revolution (which incidentally is where the usual and horrifically simple anarchist critique of vanguardism falls down, by assuming vangaurdism equals the former).
> 
> I don't know why some of the critics of Che focus on the killing and slaying and blood in an abstract sense - he killed people therefore must have been a monster. Which is liberal bollocks. Overthrowing a ruling class is inevitably going to involve a wee bit of blood-letting. It wasn't that he killed, or ordered others to kill. It was that he regarded many working class militants as no different to the defenders of Batista and capitalism, as _the enemies of the Cuban revolution_. His long-held position of placing his revolutionary elite in the role of the working class in practise. It was who he repressed and why he repressed them, not that repression took place.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post,and spot-on.Che and Fidel were two of the poshest revolutionaries there've ever been


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Are you still gonna be waving his flag after all the shit you have heard about your 'hero'?


 
yeah probably


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

i got a pack of che cigerettes, but i put them through the wash and i dunno if they will smoke funny now 

dont think i'll bother. but in a moment of desperation i did unwrap them, but then i managed to regain some self control...


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> yeah probably


 
Fair enough. Even though you know what che did, atleast you will look 'cool' as fuck


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

Who wouldn't want this for their birthday?


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> then maybe Im abit odd myself.


 
i agree


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> i agree


 
Whereas you are a total  cunt


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Who wouldn't want this for their birthday?


 
too much creme on it. whats the yellow stuff?

i'd be in no rush if i am being honest.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Whereas you are a total wee cunt


 
how offensive! 

that's just not cricket, is it?


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> how offensive!
> 
> that's just not cricket, is it?


 
Sorry.  It just came out.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Brilliant post,and spot-on.Che and Fidel were two of the poshest revolutionaries there've ever been


 
I was going to add a bit about how the attitudes of Stalinists and parliamentary road socialists (and Fabians, left liberals, Greens etc) to the working class have more in common than either would ever admit, but I thought it might get mired in controversy. So I decided I'd just post a pic of a nazi cake instead.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

good call sir.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I was going to add a bit about how the attitudes of Stalinists and parliamentary road socialists (and Fabians, left liberals, Greens etc) to the working class have more in common than either would ever admit, but I thought it might get mired in controversy. So I decided I'd just post a pic of a nazi cake instead.


 
Do tell what you were going to say please? Sound interesting. I think you are going to say something along the lines of 'they think the working class can't do things themselves'. If so I agree.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

he already said that ali.

can i call you ali bongo?


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

bit harsh like, but its only fair.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Do tell what you were going to say please? Sound interesting. I think you are going to say something along the lines of 'they think the working class can't do things themselves'. If so I agree.


 
Pretty much, yeah. A paternalistic and romantic view of the w/c that conceals their contempt for them.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> he already said that ali.
> 
> can i call you ali bongo?


 
Fly your che flag. I will look out for it and have a word


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 19, 2011)

Not entirely sure why I'm finding that cake quite so amusing.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Pretty much, yeah. A paternalistic and romantic view of the w/c that conceals their contempt for them.


 
Yep that sounds like them.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 19, 2011)

wtfftw said:


> Not entirely sure why I'm finding that cake quite so amusing.



Because it's naughty but nice?


----------



## manny-p (Mar 19, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> bit harsh like, but its only fair.


 

I thought you meant this ali bongo-


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 19, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Because it's naughty but nice?


I hope someone somewhere has made hitler gingerbread men.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

wtfftw said:


> I hope someone somewhere has made hitler gingerbread men.



Seek and you shall find


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 19, 2011)

Fucking wicked.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

I'm not sure why Fidel has no legs though.

My fave:


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 19, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I'm not sure why Fidel has no legs though.



He's just Havana sit down.

Sorry.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 19, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> He's just Havana sit down.
> 
> Sorry.


 
Genuinely made me lol!


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 19, 2011)

I apologise for rudely returning this thread to its subject, as unimportant as it might be, but here's a video:


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 19, 2011)

cracking video, gash music. they should have picked something off the protest songs thread. gonna link it fb anyways.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 20, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> cracking video, gash music. they should have picked something off the protest songs thread. gonna link it fb anyways.


 






Imagine if you got that, then realised he was actually a bit of a cunt.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 20, 2011)

'Police support for protesters is growing as government cuts start to bite.'



> A deepening antipathy for the government's public spending cuts has been revealed as the head of the police union said officers patrolling next weekend's demonstrations against austerity measures would have "a lot of sympathy" with the protesters.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/20/police-support-protesters-growing


----------



## manny-p (Mar 20, 2011)

audiotech said:


> 'Police support for protesters is growing as government cuts start to bite.'
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/20/police-support-protesters-growing


 
Yet they will still trunchen the fuck out of ppl next saturday.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 20, 2011)

I've just seen that there's a thread on this. ^

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/345505-Police-amp-the-cuts


----------



## newbie (Mar 20, 2011)

Can anyone help me understand why the TUC has timed this for a couple of days after the budget, rather than a couple of days beforehand?  I'd have expected them (of all people) to try and influence what he says, rather than pretend that the crowd has gathered in response to it.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 20, 2011)

newbie said:


> Can anyone help me understand why the TUC has timed this for a couple of days after the budget, rather than a couple of days beforehand?  I'd have expected them (of all people) to try and influence what he says, rather than pretend that the crowd has gathered in response to it.


 
In the hope that people will realise how fucked they will be, and will be angrier after the budget than before. Post budget will be a bigger demo them pre. Bet loads of people book onto coaches on thursday and friday


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 20, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Imagine if you got that, then realised he was actually a bit of a cunt.


 
yep, that would suck.

luckily i don't have tattoos. i get bored of things easily. i get through approx 1 or 2 identities every month


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 20, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Yet they will still trunchen the fuck out of ppl next saturday.


 
i'm bringing a motorcycle helmet and gloves with padded knuckely bits.

seriously   

kind of scared tbh.  they just beat innocent people. its just not cricket.  protect and serve you know. its baffling!


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 20, 2011)

newbie said:


> Can anyone help me understand why the TUC has timed this for a couple of days after the budget, rather than a couple of days beforehand?  I'd have expected them (of all people) to try and influence what he says, rather than pretend that the crowd has gathered in response to it.


 
maybe they are smart enough to realise that there is fuck all that we can do to make any kind of serious difference and don't want to try and deceive anyone into thinking differently?

i'm just going for the shits n giggles tbh.


----------



## newbie (Mar 20, 2011)

BigTom said:


> In the hope that people will realise how fucked they will be, and will be angrier after the budget than before. Post budget will be a bigger demo them pre. Bet loads of people book onto coaches on thursday and friday


 
you think?  After a couple of high profile sweeteners about petrol prices and raising thresholds and some feeble flapping from NuLab I'm not convinced they will.   

Will- yeah but this is the TUC we're talking about.  Sowing illusions is part of their mission.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 20, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> i'm bringing a motorcycle helmet and gloves with padded knuckely bits.
> 
> seriously
> 
> kind of scared tbh.  they just beat innocent people. its just not cricket.  protect and serve you know. its baffling!


 
Only problem with that is that they will pick you out as 'a troublemaker'. Stay safe.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 20, 2011)

could i just say i'm a motorcyclist?


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 20, 2011)

Got my outfit sorted for the day


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Brilliant post,and spot-on.Che and Fidel were two of the poshest revolutionaries there've ever been


 
posher than leon trotsky?






I think not. Look at his specs.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2011)

Ah, but he was Jewish and therefore could be posh, but never entirely posh


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

heh. Read something the other day about icons of lenin still being popular in russia. Cos marx was a foriegner and stalin was a georgian peasant. But lenin was a true son of mother russia. Can't test the veracity of that claim but it did cause me a small chuckle.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 20, 2011)

Heh. What about Brezhnev etc?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 20, 2011)

Did Lenin ever fight a bear though? Eh?


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 20, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> posher than leon trotsky?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
woah. check out that clobber! you only see that shit in sci-fi movies, was he an alien?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Did Lenin ever fight a bear though? Eh?


 
his great grandad was a chef in the tsars palace hence he is tainted by petit bourgeois royalist ancestry. Also, probably a torturer cos he's ex kgb


----------



## Belushi (Mar 20, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Heh. What about Brezhnev etc?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

look at his burger nipples!


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 20, 2011)

Anyway, it's fast approaching and I've organised nothing.  I'd like to come up friday night and hook up with some urbaneers but I'll need a place to stay!

*hint hint*


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 20, 2011)

Belushi said:


>










> You ain't as dumb as you look (1978)


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Anyway, it's fast approaching and I've organised nothing.  I'd like to come up friday night and hook up with some urbaneers but I'll need a place to stay!
> 
> *hint hint*



me ukuncut bod is hopefully giving me a lift there and back- I've hinted at it but not asked directly cos I'm expecting some work to come in and I can't fucking afford not to take the work if it does come in. Worst option is the national express cos coach rides drive me to the cans before I've even booked a ticket.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 20, 2011)

Why not get a free union coach?

http://falseeconomy.org.uk/travel/uk/all/t1


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 20, 2011)

Yeah, I sorted that but know exactly zero other people going up.

(plus I don't want to get up in the morning and I fancy a night out before  )


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Why not get a free union coach?
> 
> http://falseeconomy.org.uk/travel/uk/all/t1


 


> Departs at: 7:45am
> Departs from: Corby - Kettering - Northampton



win. So long as I don't get work these are my ticket. Bring the noise.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

A cobblestone hefted 
in arms as much as peace, well
avoid a nicking


----------



## manny-p (Mar 20, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> heh. Read something the other day about icons of lenin still being popular in russia. Cos marx was a foriegner and stalin was a georgian peasant. But lenin was a true son of mother russia. Can't test the veracity of that claim but it did cause me a small chuckle.


 
Stalin is idolised by many neo nazis in Russia. Probably because of his treatment of the minorities and forced deportation of entire peoples.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

such policies predated uncle joe and the naz-bol lot are fucking idiots. It is simple semiotic appropriation of symbols and historical figures. The power that is given to those symbols becomes a gift for those wankers simply because they are able to use the symbols to gull people who might look upon the reign of stalin fondly.







cute, but wrong.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 20, 2011)

'Ex-Unite leader Tony Woodley calls for cuts uprising.'



> There has got to be direct action,...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-12677903


----------



## Santino (Mar 20, 2011)

I was trying to find a picture of Stalin fighting a bear, but I only found this:


----------



## bingiman (Mar 20, 2011)

Am I missing the point.  
The biggest demo in these times and you are debating Stalin and Russia.  
Everyone turn up.  
We are all affected by the greed of the rich, but we live now.


----------



## Thora (Mar 20, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Yeah, I sorted that but know exactly zero other people going up.
> 
> (plus I don't want to get up in the morning and I fancy a night out before  )


 
Well we are going to be there, but bringing the baby so no big night out beforehand


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 20, 2011)

I just booked my coach tickets. For various reasons I'm most inclined to do UKUncut stuff. I'll check out their site, but is it just a case of turning up on Ox St if nowt else?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 20, 2011)

Santino said:


> I was trying to find a picture of Stalin fighting a bear, but I only found this:


 
Stalin never fought bears, he had Kamo gut them while they slept.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 20, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I just booked my coach tickets. For various reasons I'm most inclined to do UKUncut stuff. I'll check out their site, but is it just a case of turning up on Ox St if nowt else?



yeah, unless you have a group already that you can organise an occupation with, just decide which of the ones listed on ukuncut's website you like the most and go there at 2


----------



## audiotech (Mar 20, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Stalin never fought bears, he had Kamo gut them while they slept.



A hangover from his drinking competitions with Beria.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 21, 2011)

Thora said:


> Well we are going to be there, but bringing the baby so no big night out beforehand



 what has become of urban75. we are an aging population with babies and wotnot.

i suggest the ed cobble together some u75 teeshirts and flags and other marketing merchandise so we can try and recruit some of da yoot! otherwise there is no future. except if yous lot make loads of babies and then indoctrinate them into these here anarchist n trotskyist ways while they are still young and vulnerable to coercian!


----------



## emma goldman (Mar 21, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Anyway, it's fast approaching and I've organised nothing.  I'd like to come up friday night and hook up with some urbaneers but I'll need a place to stay!
> 
> *hint hint*



two convergance spaces have apparently been opened for people coming down for the march. Details will be released on indymedia on Thursday.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 21, 2011)

emma goldman said:


> two *convergance spaces* have apparently been opened for people coming down for the march. Details will be released on indymedia on Thursday.


 
Would they be anything like an assembly point?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

we should have a u75 assembly point imo.


----------



## Onket (Mar 21, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> we should have a u75 assembly point imo.


 
It's in Kennington Park.

p.s. You bringing your wacky soundsytem?


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

Yes 

I got a second hand benetton wheely suitcase just for saturday. If it holds together.


----------



## Onket (Mar 21, 2011)

Good stuff.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 21, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> what has become of urban75. we are an aging population with babies and wotnot.
> 
> i suggest the ed cobble together some u75 teeshirts and flags and other marketing merchandise so we can try and recruit some of da yoot! otherwise there is no future. except if yous lot make loads of babies and then indoctrinate them into these here anarchist n trotskyist ways while they are still young and vulnerable to coercian!


 
From being on several of the student demo's last year, I suspect that many of the young people have little to learn from us oldens and indeed point the way to a steep learning curve successfully scaled in a matter of mere weeks.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 21, 2011)

People are organising bed space for visitors. Anyone stuck?


----------



## Onket (Mar 21, 2011)

Don't you mean convergance spaces?


----------



## BigTom (Mar 21, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I just booked my coach tickets. For various reasons I'm most inclined to do UKUncut stuff. I'll check out their site, but is it just a case of turning up on Ox St if nowt else?


 
Ukuncut have now said meet 11:30am, National Theatre, South Bank if youw ant to march with e ukuncut bloc, then onto oxford st for 2

e2a: www.ukuncut.org.uk


----------



## TopCat (Mar 21, 2011)

<In response to Onket >
Convergence spaces conveys a dismaying view of uncontrollable amounts of strangers (sorry comrades) filling up my flat and demanding vegan food and ridiculing my "ownership" of a cat. I was more mentioning being host to out of towners.


----------



## Onket (Mar 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> <In response to Onket >
> Convergence spaces conveys a dismaying view of uncontrollable amounts of strangers (sorry comrades) filling up my flat and demanding vegan food and ridiculing my "ownership" of a cat. I was more mentioning being host to out of towners.


 
 You do right.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

TopCat is a gent


----------



## TopCat (Mar 21, 2011)

Excuse me if this has been posted before. Advice to the many stewards on the day. 

http://www.tuc.org.uk/extras/March_Stewards_Dealing_with_situations.pdf


----------



## trabant (Mar 21, 2011)

I won't be around for the march, but good luck to everyone going. I'm guessing after the main march there'll be some head cracking, so remember to buddy up. And the che flag, at least attach it to a solid bit of wood....


----------



## xes (Mar 21, 2011)

Do we have a propper meeting point yet?


----------



## emma goldman (Mar 21, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Would they be anything like an assembly point?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



They'll be a squatted space where people can stay, eat, meet, organise.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 21, 2011)

Bollocks, ive booked the virgin media man to come on saturday.......

I could cancel it, but will going result in kettling and me potentially having to shit in a plastic bag? I dont really like shitting in plastic bags tbh.


----------



## xes (Mar 21, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Bollocks, ive booked the virgin media man to come on saturday.......
> 
> I could cancel it, but will going result in kettling and me potentially having to shit in a plastic bag? I dont really like shitting in plastic bags tbh.


 
IME, saturday Demos are less kettly, and more "let the people march" kind of affiars. We can all go expecting the worse (and to be prepared for that, is a good thing) but I reckon this'll be a peaceful protest


----------



## BigTom (Mar 21, 2011)

I think if you stay on the march route, go to hyde park and listen either to the speakers on the TUC rally or the IWW alternative rally and then go home you won't get kettled - too big, too many families.. 
If you deviate from the route, stay for the night, run around london causing trouble etc. then you might get kettled..
unlike the student marches from last year, I think that if you can't afford to get kettled you'll be able to avoid it.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 21, 2011)

I think it becomes increasingly obvious which feeder march will attract the most vigorous policing and thus be the one most at risk of an attempt to kettle the people.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 21, 2011)

Ah, im a bit out of touch tbh, last one I went to was in 2001 (i think bush was visiting), got pushed over and cracked round the head by a policeman i took a photo of.......

Kinda put me off tbh, but I might make a comeback for this.


----------



## xes (Mar 21, 2011)

stay way from the edges if you want to remain baton strike free. And as mentioned, keep in the main march, and you should remain kettle free too.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Bollocks, ive booked the virgin media man to come on saturday.......
> 
> I could cancel it, but will going result in kettling and me potentially having to shit in a plastic bag? I dont really like shitting in plastic bags tbh.


 
Never live on a boat is my advice.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2011)

This isn't going to be some little thing where they do that stuff - not the main body anyway.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Ah, im a bit out of touch tbh, last one I went to was in 2001 (i think bush was visiting), got pushed over and cracked round the head by a policeman i took a photo of.......
> 
> Kinda put me off tbh, but I might make a comeback for this.


 
Yeah, me too.  Last time I went on a serious demo was 2001, although I didn't get cracked round the head.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 21, 2011)

xes said:


> stay way from the edges if you want to remain baton strike free. And as mentioned, keep in the main march, and you should remain kettle free too.


 
The main problems with the main march will be/include:

Being trapped on the Embankment for three hours plus (without toilets and access to water etc) before the main march finally leaves.
Finding the rally at hyde park finished by the time all the main march arrives.
Missing your coach or other time specific travel as the transport networks will be overloaded with massive delays as a consequence.
Being subject to overly assertive/aggressive stewarding. The TUC have arranged for thousands of stewards who are instructed to report all trouble makers to their Chief Steward who will be in constant contact with the police

I think the _worst case_ scenario will be arriving at Hyde park in good time to hear Brendan Barber and his cohorts exhort the massed crowds to go home in an orderly fashion and await the next time they can vote New labour and "make a difference".


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

Yeah, I can't say I was delighted at the prospect of getting the union bus home.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 21, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Yeah, I can't say I was delighted at the prospect of getting the union bus home.


 
Look on the bright side its free.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

Oh yeah, not complaining


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2011)

Why don't all people from one area share their numbers in case they get nicked/miss bus etc


----------



## manny-p (Mar 21, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Why don't all people from one area share their numbers in case they get nicked/miss bus etc


 
sounds like a plan


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 21, 2011)

Makes sense.

Although I think I'm going up friday now.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2011)

Right, let me think about how to do this.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 21, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Why don't all people from one area share their numbers in case they get nicked/miss bus etc


 
.....and have a number of a decent solicitor, such as Bindmans: 020 7833 4433


----------



## IC3D (Mar 21, 2011)

Police turn to untried tactics as 100,000 plan march on cuts
Independent



> TUC organisers plan to provide up to 2,500 stewards along the route, including up to *350 senior stewards who will act as negotiators*. They will also work with police commanders, who will tackle any more serious incidents of violence



Has this come up in the thread before? These guys sound like goons to me, are they private security or TUC snitches


----------



## flickerx (Mar 21, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Ukuncut have now said meet 11:30am, National Theatre, South Bank if youw ant to march with e ukuncut bloc, then onto oxford st for 2


 
URL for this?


----------



## flickerx (Mar 21, 2011)

Never mind, I found it.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 21, 2011)

When they see my placards they'll shit themselves and run off home


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 21, 2011)

and the 'Containment Manager' is...









> 'Containment manager': Lynne Owens will monitor the protest for signs of trouble



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...owd-control-tactics-have-not-been-trialled.do


----------



## discokermit (Mar 21, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Right, let me think about how to do this.


 
you could probably do with the numbers of people in london as well, just in case.


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 22, 2011)

serious question: if i take a motorcycle helmet and have it caribeena-ed onto my rucksack am i just gonna get chucked in a van without actually commiting a crime?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 22, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> serious question: if i take a motorcycle helmet and have it caribeena-ed onto my rucksack am i just gonna get chucked in a van without actually commiting a crime?


 
Could be...


----------



## editor (Mar 22, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> serious question: if i take a motorcycle helmet and have it caribeena-ed onto my rucksack am i just gonna get chucked in a van without actually commiting a crime?


A lot of photographers carry bike helmets. I might have to bring one along this time.


----------



## discokermit (Mar 22, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> serious question: if i take a motorcycle helmet and have it caribeena-ed onto my rucksack am i just gonna get chucked in a van without actually commiting a crime?


 
i'd chuck you in the van just for having a rucksack. and a carabiner.


----------



## chronotub (Mar 22, 2011)

emma goldman said:


> They'll be a squatted space where people can stay, eat, meet, organise.


 
what are the odds of these places getting raided by the police?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2011)

score, TU coach sorted. tubeing from wembley to the march- any idea on how much tube money I need londoners?


----------



## xes (Mar 22, 2011)

4 quid each way ish. (this is a guess, might be less, might be more)


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2011)

that is a fucking liberty. *grumble, moan, whine*

will jump if poss but if not I'll just have to pay the damn fare.


----------



## xes (Mar 22, 2011)

Think yourself lucky, I'm looking at nearly 20 quid for a return!!


----------



## xes (Mar 22, 2011)

Anyway, what's the score on a meetup point?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd like to see photos of Urbanz at the march.


----------



## xes (Mar 22, 2011)

^^old bill


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 22, 2011)

I think it's £2.50 each way with an Oyster card 
Edit: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/faresandtickets/farefinder/current/


----------



## Sean (Mar 22, 2011)

And where's a good place for those of us going with families to assemble if we want to avoid a) union blather at the rally and b) mental coppers attacking crusties/dubstep yoot?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 22, 2011)

Where is 'New Covent Garden coach park'?

Can I walk from there or tube?


----------



## discokermit (Mar 22, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Where is 'New Covent Garden coach park'?
> 
> Can I walk from there or tube?


 
battersea. it's quite a walk but it's along the river, so if the weathers nice it might be quite pleasant.


----------



## Thora (Mar 22, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> score, TU coach sorted. tubeing from wembley to the march- any idea on how much tube money I need londoners?


 
Get a travelcard - think it's £7 for zones 1-3.


----------



## Thora (Mar 22, 2011)

Sean said:


> And where's a good place for those of us going with families to assemble if we want to avoid a) union blather at the rally and b) mental coppers attacking crusties/dubstep yoot?


 
There's a  Buggy Bloc


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 22, 2011)

xes said:


> ^^old bill



LOL. Wouldn't that make me the most committed troll of all times?


----------



## Sean (Mar 22, 2011)

Thora said:


> There's a  Buggy Bloc


 
Our lot are a bit old for buggies but that might be a good plan. Cheers


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 22, 2011)

discokermit said:


> battersea. it's quite a walk but it's along the river, so if the weathers nice it might be quite pleasant.


 
Sound, I'll walk. Even if it's pissing it down tbh.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 22, 2011)

Sean said:


> And where's a good place for those of us going with families to assemble if we want to avoid a) union blather at the rally and b) mental coppers attacking crusties/dubstep yoot?



There's going to be an alternative rally in hyde park, hosted by IWW, by the fountains on the Eastern edge of hyde park, nr park lane from 3:30pm if you want to listen to some more radical speeches.. 
imo avoiding kettles will mean embankment -> hyde park march.  Kennington Park and Malet St. both hold high chances of heavy policing


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 22, 2011)

Please, please, please can nobody chant, "They say get back, we say fight back"


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 22, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Please, please, please can nobody chant, "They say get back, we say fight back"


 
Why?

Shit I misread this, I've never heard that one.


----------



## Santino (Mar 22, 2011)

"They say CUT back"?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2011)

I say exsanguinate them with a sharpened straw to the femoral artery.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 22, 2011)

Sean said:


> Our lot are a bit old for buggies but that might be a good plan. Cheers



We'll be carrying our 3 yr old on our backs but we're thinking of joining the buggy bloc cos I think it'll be less overwhelming for her if she's with loads of parents with young children; she's been on demos before but not as big as we're hoping this one's going to be.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 22, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Would they be anything like an assembly point?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
Yes but for cool anarchist types.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 22, 2011)




----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Please, please, please can nobody chant, "They say get back, we say fight back"


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 23, 2011)

Anybody got any good one liners for t'owd bill?


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 23, 2011)

So, you coming along moon?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 23, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Excuse me if this has been posted before. Advice to the many stewards on the day.
> 
> http://www.tuc.org.uk/extras/March_Stewards_Dealing_with_situations.pdf



What a waste of time that is.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 23, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Anybody got any good one liners for t'owd bill?



Harry Roberts.....etc was a long-time favourite at most football grounds, particularly during the 70's, but a bit out of date now.

There's this used on a demo in Austin Texas:

'1-3-5-9 Make the Cops Do the Time'

A chant from an anti-police brutality demo in the US that has a nice ring to it, emphasising international solidarity:

'From New York To Greece, Fuck the Police'

And there's always this for the portable sound system:


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 23, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Harry Roberts.....etc was a long-time favourite at most football grounds, particularly during the 70's, but a bit out of date now.



I dunno seems to be still going strong on a lot of demos.


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 23, 2011)

I like that 'we paid for you hats' one


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 23, 2011)

And if one more copper came and joined the mob
There would be one less copper to punch me in the gob

We paid for your hats and Two Hats are the front runners though.


----------



## discokermit (Mar 23, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> And if one more copper came and joined the mob
> There would be one less copper to punch me in the gob


they're not going to join us. don't know why you keep on about it. who wants 'em even if they did?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 23, 2011)

Fuck 'em.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 23, 2011)

discokermit said:


> they're not going to join us. don't know why you keep on about it. who wants 'em even if they did?


 
It's a chant, one of your lots as it happens!

Although to be all po-faced for a minute, at some point - not now, admittedly, but at some point - we will need them. Or some of them, or at least a divided them.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 23, 2011)

Selection of info here: http://london.indymedia.org/articles/7835 

Is there a poll up for which urbanites are coming yet?


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 23, 2011)

No, but there jolly well ought to be.  I want to see numbers.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 23, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Anybody got any good one liners for t'owd bill?



"no comment"


----------



## editor (Mar 23, 2011)

I've posted up a load of info about the march here: March for the Alternative demo, Sat 26th March 2011 – info, legal help, chat and after-party


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Anybody got any good one liners for t'owd bill?


 
two hats (=twats) for the tsg, who will indeed be carrying two hats


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 24, 2011)

Interesting piece about possible new kettling tactics that could be used on Saturday.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/171088.html

Separately, I am a bit behind the curve and maybe this has come up already, but the only political party speaker lined up is E Milliband, not sure if he is even marching. What kind of 'alternatives' do the TUC want us to march for? - their favoured phoney left war criminals who dont even have the balls to say which massive cuts they would make? The TUC represent stasis. Labour think they only have to wait around with their fingers up their arse for us all to come running to them. We need the non-co opted, non controlled opposition aspects of Saturday to be as large as possible.


----------



## killer b (Mar 24, 2011)

is ed miliband really speaking? that's bonkers. he's going to have to come over all aaron porter in the news in the evening after the half-bricks start flying, and end up being (more) hated by both sides.


----------



## xes (Mar 24, 2011)

dear god "imminent revolution" 

I hope I'm nowhere near this lot.


----------



## machine cat (Mar 24, 2011)

Bollocks. Didn't want to get a TU coach as they leave Wembly at 5pm, and the train fare will be too expensive.


----------



## ohmyliver (Mar 24, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> score, TU coach sorted. tubeing from wembley to the march- any idea on how much tube money I need londoners?


 
Wembley is in zone 4, so a ticket into town is 5 quid each way without an oyster card, and 7.80 for a travelcard without an oyster card

http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/Transport/London/Underground.htm#TicketPrices2011


----------



## newbie (Mar 24, 2011)

machine cat said:


> Bollocks. Didn't want to get a TU coach as they leave Wembly at 5pm, and the train fare will be too expensive.


 
I suspect that one of the themes of next weeks threads will be the travel chaos caused by the TUC's ridiculous arrangements for out of town coaches.


----------



## machine cat (Mar 24, 2011)

newbie said:


> I suspect that one of the themes of next weeks threads will be the travel chaos caused by the TUC's ridiculous arrangements for out of town coaches.


 
I should have really sorted out a train or megabus ticket weeks ago.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 24, 2011)

xes said:


> dear god "imminent revolution"
> 
> I hope I'm nowhere near this lot.




Who is that guy?


----------



## newbie (Mar 24, 2011)

machine cat said:


> I should have really sorted out a train or megabus ticket weeks ago.



yeah, it'll all be your fault 

the huge CND rallies of the 80s, and the even bigger 2003 megademo didn't consign people to Wembley or Stratford, did they?  Perhaps because the organisers wanted them to come back in future.  I'm sorry people but to my eye you've been set up for a nightmare day of long, long tube journeys in chaotic and stressful conditions.  I don't know how the modern constraints the TUC has been operating under (eg LEZ restrictions) have affected the transport arrangements but surely people deserve better when undertaking long coach journeys?


----------



## xes (Mar 24, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Who is that guy?


 
fuck knows, the "love police" or some such bollocks.


----------



## GoneCoastal (Mar 24, 2011)

When I was photographing one of the earlier student marches, there was some use of this one. 
May be useful to know ... 

--c&p-- from another article 
4. Section 50 Police Reform Act 2002

A recent development in police attempts to gain activist’s details is the use of Section 50 of the Police Reform Act 2002. This makes it an offence to refuse to give your name and address to a police officer, where the officer reasonably suspects that you have engaged in “anti-social behaviour”. “Anti-social behaviour” is defined as behaviour that has caused harassment, alarm or distress to other people, so it’s not difficult for the police to say that they suspect this in protest situations. Section 50 carries no specific power of arrest, but if you refuse to give your name and address, then the police can say that they suspect you of committing a non-arrestable offence and Section 25 PACE applies – see Sections 2 and 3 above.

The use by the police of this power will at some stage be challenged in court, as it was not designed to deal with political protest but with anti-social behaviour, for example by youths on housing estates. But certain police forces - notably Staffordshire – are currently using the power, and you should be aware that they could arrest you if you refuse to give details when required under this Section. There is no requirement under Section 50 to give your date of birth.

--end c&p --


----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Mar 24, 2011)

xes said:


> fuck knows, the "love police" or some such bollocks.


 
he is Charlie Veitch - loads of videos here - http://www.youtube.com/user/cveitch


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 24, 2011)

The Andrew Lansley Rap! Sorry if already posted -


----------



## Onket (Mar 24, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> No, but there jolly well ought to be.  I want to see numbers.


 
Have you done this yet?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 24, 2011)

ohmyliver said:


> Wembley is in zone 4, so a ticket into town is 5 quid each way without an oyster card, and 7.80 for a travelcard without an oyster card
> 
> http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/Transport/London/Underground.htm#TicketPrices2011


 
does a travelcard mean I can make unlimited journes within 1-4 all day? I'd likely only use it to and from wembley mind...

e2a




			
				ur link said:
			
		

> If you have a period travelcard you can travel as often as you wish within the zones covered, but you still need to put your card on the reader at the start and end of all journey



so yes then


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 24, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> does a travelcard mean I can make unlimited journes within 1-4 all day? I'd likely only use it to and from wembley mind...


 
Yep.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 24, 2011)

London Tube planned work this weekend....

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/livetravelnews/planned-works/calendar/default.aspx




			
				tfl said:
			
		

> Part closure - Central
> 
> Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March, no service between Marble Arch and West Ruislip/Ealing Broadway. Replacement buses operate.
> 
> ...


----------



## xes (Mar 24, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> does a travelcard mean I can make unlimited journes within 1-4 all day? I'd likely only use it to and from wembley mind...
> 
> e2a
> 
> ...


 
yeah, so if you miss the start of the march, you can hop off to another station and rejoin it. (like I've done on a few occasions) Picadilly is a good place to jump in if you're well late btw. (not too far from Hyde Park ect)


----------



## xes (Mar 24, 2011)

stephj said:


> London Tube planned work this weekend....
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/livetravelnews/planned-works/calendar/default.aspx


 
arseholes, that's a few lines which stop at embankment, is it not?


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 24, 2011)

editor said:


> I've posted up a load of info about the march here: March for the Alternative demo, Sat 26th March 2011 – info, legal help, chat and after-party


 
Top banana really useful thanks ed.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 24, 2011)

Any thoughts on sukey?  http://www.sukey.org @sukeydata


----------



## xes (Mar 24, 2011)

great idea, but it looks like it'll be a little unheard of for this demo. Great tool for the future though.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 24, 2011)

xes said:


> great idea, but it looks like it'll be a little unheard of for this demo. Great tool for the future though.


this was on another thread- sukey police links 


http://london.indymedia.org/articles/7935


----------



## sim667 (Mar 24, 2011)

Realistically how many people do you reckon will turn up for this?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 24, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Realistically how many people do you reckon will turn up for this?


 
A few hundred thousand. Mind you, given the number of coaches going, I'm getting more optimistic that a million is achievable. More going from where I live to this than went for the Iraq war march as far as I can tell.

Is it 800 coaches now? Plus a fair few trains, the locals, and people making their own way down...


----------



## OneStrike (Mar 24, 2011)

xes said:


> great idea, but it looks like it'll be a little unheard of for this demo. Great tool for the future though.


 

This is true of most that will attend, it is fairly well known amongst the UkUncut crowd and the more organised Student protesters.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 24, 2011)

> “If you come along to demonstrations intent on rioting, causing damage, fighting cops, or just generally being an anti-social idiot then Sukey is not for you”.





> On the 26th we are releasing all of our code* under a GNU Affero General Public License v3 so that everyone will be free to read, rewrite and reuse as they see fit.



So why not use the code to create an app for 'anti-social idiot(s)'?


----------



## sim667 (Mar 24, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> A few hundred thousand. Mind you, given the number of coaches going, I'm getting more optimistic that a million is achievable. More going from where I live to this than went for the Iraq war march as far as I can tell.
> 
> Is it 800 coaches now? Plus a fair few trains, the locals, and people making their own way down...


 
well if a coach takes 55 (about the amount of seats on a coach innit?) that'll be about 44,000


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 24, 2011)

sim667 said:


> well if a coach takes 55 (about the amount of seats on a coach innit?) that'll be about 44,000


 
About 70 usually I think, but yeah you have a point. It's 200 coaches more than for the Iraq war one though.

Perhaps I have been a bit too optimistic.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 24, 2011)

sim667 said:


> well if a coach takes 55 (about the amount of seats on a coach innit?) that'll be about *44,000*


 
That'll probably be how many the BBC will say were there in total anyway


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 24, 2011)

Last I heard, they were predicting quarter of a million. Thousands of people won't be coming by coach or chartered train, but by public transport and/or foot.  It's certainly going to be BIG!


----------



## BigTom (Mar 24, 2011)

I reckon low end 200,000 high end 1 million.
on monday at Birmingham against the cuts meeting we counted 67 coaches known about going from birmingham - 2 or 3 shy of the number that went to the STW march.  5 from dudley, 2 went to stw.. Notts have twice as many going to this as stw.. I don't know about other places.. 
you also need to add all the charter trains going as well, and I've heard 1,200 coaches.
And of course there are many people going down by train/megabus/coach or in their own cars or hired minibus.

Then bear in mind that the best part of 1/6th of the population lives in and around london and won't need to go by coach (plus a higher % of them will turn out because it is closer and easier to do so - many people from further away will be unable to afford to go, or unwilling to spend hours on a coach down, hours marching and hours on a coach back)..


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 24, 2011)

http://artsagainstcuts.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/met-tuc-march.jpg

Planned road closures


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 24, 2011)

1 million - no way. 

The anti war march was way way bigger then any demo in british history. Its a special case.

Any demo of over 100 thousand is pretty big. 200 thousand would be huge - and would make it close to being the  2nd biggest demo ever in the UK - rivalled only by the 80s cnd marches and possibly the cuntryside alliance one (although their numbers are suspect - only case ever of the cops estimate of numbers matching that claimed by the organsiors). Poll tax and miners strike demos were pretty big - not sure if they were 200,000 though.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 24, 2011)

Exactly 144,000 people will attend. Ask the Jehovah's Witnesses, they know, and are helping with stewarding.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 24, 2011)

I recon the police will start to get naughty after the official TUC stuff is done and we have got on the coaches home. I also predict beef visited on the south london feeder marchers who remain after 6 and possibly the pink and black lot.

I don't see them kettling and bashing the TUC marchers because that would play really badly with even the r/w press. Never underestimate the shittiness of the met though.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 24, 2011)

Anyone seen the weather forecast? Should I bring a brolly?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 24, 2011)

Yesterday they were saying it was going to rain, today they are saying Sat will be dry with sunny intervals...


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 24, 2011)

I hear ya Dot - have fun where ever you end up 

It's not going to rain. Swappies forbid it.


----------



## strung out (Mar 24, 2011)

be wary of the liberty observers with green bibs on... http://london.indymedia.org/articles/7996



> GBC and LDMG are advising caution when dealing with Liberty's untrained legal observers in green bibs. Liberty are working closely with police in the run up to and during the demonstration and are willing to testify against the actions of protesters.


----------



## Mation (Mar 24, 2011)

I don't know much about Liberty's history so perhaps they've got form I don't know about, but couldn't 'working with the police' mean that they can keep an eye on them? And couldn't being willing to testify against protesters allow for doing the 'right' thing if a protester does genuinely do something appalling? (Though I'm well aware that it's the police who are likely to initiate violence against protesters rather than the other way round.)


----------



## chronotub (Mar 24, 2011)

any info on the convergance spaces? maybe I'm just being stupid but I couldn't find anything on indymedia


----------



## BigTom (Mar 24, 2011)

chronotub said:


> any info on the convergance spaces? maybe I'm just being stupid but I couldn't find anything on indymedia


 
Www.london.indymedia.org/articles/7990


----------



## chronotub (Mar 24, 2011)

cheers man, coach is heading off at 6 and I was worried I might be left without anywhere to stay


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 24, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Www.london.indymedia.org/articles/7990


 
They need mugs (drinking vessels) Occupational supplies welcome!

@BigSocietyHQ


----------



## militant atheist (Mar 24, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I reckon low end 200,000 high end 1 million.
> on monday at Birmingham against the cuts meeting we counted 67 coaches known about going from birmingham - 2 or 3 shy of the number that went to the STW march.  5 from dudley, 2 went to stw.. Notts have twice as many going to this as stw.. I don't know about other places..
> you also need to add all the charter trains going as well, and I've heard 1,200 coaches.
> And of course there are many people going down by train/megabus/coach or in their own cars or hired minibus.
> ...


 
Yes, I can confirm this.  I heard tonight from a senior TU woman that it's over 1,000 coaches and around 20 trains. So, we've got to be talking a minimum of 100,000 from outside Greater London.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 25, 2011)

Is anyone else getting excited yet


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Mar 25, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> Is anyone else getting excited yet


 
Yep. Going to be quality.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 25, 2011)

Threshers_Flail said:


> Yep. Going to be quality.


 
I can't wait. Setting off tmw tea time. I'll be twitching all day


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 25, 2011)

But...but...it's better to do nothing because essentially, compared to some places, we have it easy:




			
				Sir Simon Jenkins said:
			
		

> Most people nowadays take to the streets en masse only to protect their incomes or their interests. Dockers, miners and power workers have given way to white-collar workers, civil servants and, on one colourful occasion, huntsmen. Strikes by these groups hardly bring the country to its knees. In the case of students, recent demonstrations were probably counterproductive. Few people could see their problem when their "fees" had already morphed into income surtax. The 2004 pro-hunt lobby dust-up in Parliament Square succeeded in doing what only Charles I had done before, invading the actual Commons chamber. It did them no more good than their royal predecessor.
> 
> The truth, for better or worse, is that Britain is a peaceable, parliamentary nation. The majority of Britons have bought into the constitution, with the monarchy, House of Lords, voting system and all. Street demonstrations seem like a throwback, a masonic ritual of banners, pushchairs, linked hands and incantations. By the mid-60s, the CND marches to Trafalgar Square had become a festival, like the Lord Mayor's Show or Glastonbury, albeit with anarchist hangers-on. Today's student demos degenerate into rugby club nights out, with traffic cones as trophies.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/24/protest-trafalgar-square-tahrir-square

What a wrong cunt.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 25, 2011)

a small lol from the comment section of that article:



> The reaction to civil unrest depends very much on who is doing the unrest. If you're a bunch of selfish knob-ends who happen to have the right-wing press behind you, you're good to go.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 25, 2011)




----------



## machine cat (Mar 25, 2011)

Gutted I can't make it unless last minute transport becomes available


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 25, 2011)

have you checked availability on the nearest TU coach? It is free


----------



## machine cat (Mar 25, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> have you checked availability on the nearest TU coach? It is free


 
Phone yesterday and they're all fully booked (besides - this leaving at 5pm is a bit shit. I would have preferred to stay the night). Gonna give a friend a ring and see if he's not working and fancies driving down in the morning. Fingers crossed he's up for it.


----------



## Fingers (Mar 25, 2011)

I might be worth turning up for the TUC coach regardless.  Out of 60 people there is quite a likelyhood that one of two will not show or have had to bail out at the last minute.


----------



## machine cat (Mar 25, 2011)

Fingers said:


> I might be worth turning up for the TUC coach regardless.  Out of 60 people there is quite a likelyhood that one of two will not show or have had to bail out at the last minute.


 
good idea


----------



## BigTom (Mar 25, 2011)

Not sure if this has already been posted, up to date list of the different things happening tomorrow:

http://london.indymedia.org/articles/7991

see you on the streets


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 25, 2011)

Anyone who was planning to go on the TUC coach from bristol or bath can have my seat


----------



## ohmyliver (Mar 25, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> does a travelcard mean I can make unlimited journes within 1-4 all day? I'd likely only use it to and from wembley mind...
> 
> e2a
> 
> ...


 
all day, and until 4am...


----------



## emma goldman (Mar 25, 2011)

apparently harriet harman will be marching on the women's bloc tomorrow


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 25, 2011)

So it starts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/anti-cuts-march-police-violence



> Police say those on their way to the march carrying objects such as balaclavas to cover their faces to avoid detection, will be stopped, and officers have been reminded of their stop-and-search powers to tackle people alleged to be carrying objects that could be used to cause trouble.



Weather forecast is looking good, a bit cooler than today.


----------



## JamesH81 (Mar 25, 2011)

Leaving at 4am to get to this, car full coming down from Northumberland and I know my union collegues at work have a coach load coming so Northumberland will be well represented.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 25, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> have you checked availability on the nearest TU coach? It is free


 
What the coaches are paid for from your own subs?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 25, 2011)

I do think there is a need for some cuts, so I can't support such a general protest against cuts generally. However I wish everyone who attends tomorrow a good day, and hope they don't fall foul of the met's bully boys. Even though I disagree with your aims I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 25, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I do think there is a need for some cuts, so I can't support such a general protest against cuts generally. However I wish everyone who attends tomorrow a good day, and hope they don't fall foul of the met's bully boys. Even though I disagree with your aims I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.



You're the enemy.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 25, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I do think there is a need for some cuts, so I can't support such a general protest against cuts generally. However I wish everyone who attends tomorrow a good day, and hope they don't fall foul of the met's bully boys. Even though I disagree with your aims I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.


 
Fuck off you hero.


----------



## Garek (Mar 25, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> So it starts:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/anti-cuts-march-police-violence
> 
> Weather forecast is looking good, a bit cooler than today.


 

Hehe  I like the url


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 25, 2011)

You really don't fucking get it do you, moon.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 25, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I do think there is a need for some cuts, so I can't support such a general protest against cuts generally. However I wish everyone who attends tomorrow a good day, and hope they don't fall foul of the met's bully boys. Even though I disagree with your aims I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.


 
Fuck off. We don't want or need your voice you whig cunt.


----------



## machine cat (Mar 25, 2011)

Just got in touch with a mate who would have been up for it but he's working i the evening so looks like I'm not going 

Good luck to all of you out there.


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 25, 2011)

if anyone wants my moby number (so as to hook up with me) please PM me


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 25, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I do think there is a need for some cuts, so I can't support such a general protest against cuts generally. However I wish everyone who attends tomorrow a good day, and hope they don't fall foul of the met's bully boys. Even though I disagree with your aims I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.


 
Liar. The met undoubtedly will try to suppress some people's right to protest. You won't be the first to complain and your complaint will be limited to a hand wringing post or two on here and maybe a strongly worded letter to the local paper. In the future you will also call on any such posts or letter as evidence of your good intentions when challenged on your misanthropic garbage politics.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Weller (Mar 25, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I do think there is a need for some cuts, so I can't support such a general protest against cuts generally. However I wish everyone who attends tomorrow a good day, and hope they don't fall foul of the met's bully boys. Even though I disagree with your aims I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.



so it doesnt matter if *some *cuts are going to cause widespread suffering and distress as long as you consider *some* to be "needed " 
I really hope the next lib dem to come down my path utters such crap


----------



## Will2403 (Mar 25, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> Is anyone else getting excited yet


 
YES YES YES!

still got loads to do.


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 25, 2011)

so anyonegot more info on the south london route etc?

got these off facebook but can't comment on their accuracy

'just to let people know. The Met have been in touch. They're intending to stop the feeder march, not allowing a march down the road and will attempt to permit only groups of 50 to walk down the pavement. For info only.'

'updated info from Jon Rogers Unison branch sec;
The police do not agree to any more road closures as there are a great deal already and further road closures could obstruct the arrival of coaches coming in from the South to Nine Elms. (They know of at least 650 coaches coming into London).

We agreed a route with them on the basis that w...e will do our best to keep to the pavements. We do not need to split up and can march together. The route will be Kennington Road to Baylis Road and then along the Cut to Blackfriars Road to cross the river at Blackfriars Bridge.

(We wouldn't be able to join the march any further West by the time we get to the river and if we crossed at Waterloo Bridge we wouldn't be able to get down to the Embankment there.)

Andy is the named organiser of the event as far as the Police are concerned and therefore the Chief Steward.'


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks gawk, had been wondering the latest on the feeder march. I am going to be interested to watch the police attempts to keep everyone on the pavement


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 25, 2011)

ha yes. Almost looks like a move to spark confrontation. 

If accurate Blackfriars Bridge is shite


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 25, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> If accurate Blackfriars Bridge is shite


 
I dunno, makes it even less likely that people will join the main march


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 25, 2011)

Which bridge, not known yet, for obvious reasons


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 25, 2011)

Booby trapped paving slabs!

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/...labs-left-outside-treasury-on-eve-of-protest/


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 25, 2011)

Hyperbole and spite from Toby Young - who calls himself "Toadmeister" on Twitter. Freudian?
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...sunami-of-violence-and-destruction-in-london/

"Tsunami of violence" indeed.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 25, 2011)

> targeted by UK Uncut, a far-left group that organises “sit ins” at companies it believes to be guilty of tax avoidance.



heh, as opposed to having actually avoided massive tax bills in a manner highlighted by even the torygraph



> which will cost the taxpayer tens of millions of pounds.



the important bit readers, the taxpayer. Nobody on the march will have ever paid a shred of tax. Probably exist on some vast VAT dodging network of muslamic parallel economy.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 25, 2011)

The poor Toad's confused. Only the day before, he claimed that the Budget "wasn't a budget for families". It would seem a PPE degree doesn't equip one to think critically.


----------



## nick h. (Mar 25, 2011)

Is there a thread for betting on how many people turn out?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 25, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Hyperbole and spite from Toby Young - who calls himself "Toadmeister" on Twitter. Freudian?
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...sunami-of-violence-and-destruction-in-london/
> 
> "Tsunami of violence" indeed.


 
What a charmer.

Loved this:




			
				Toby "I am a twat" Young said:
			
		

> How does smashing windows "make a difference for all of society"?






			
				Ian Willmore said:
			
		

> The windows IN YOUR HEAD. At an event that HASN'T HAPPENED YET...


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 25, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> What a charmer.
> 
> Loved this:


 
Yeah, that was class.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 25, 2011)

> Toby "I am a twat" Young



Yep, a complete & utter twat.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 25, 2011)




----------



## Yossarian (Mar 25, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Hyperbole and spite from Toby Young - who calls himself "Toadmeister" on Twitter. Freudian?
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...sunami-of-violence-and-destruction-in-london/
> 
> "Tsunami of violence" indeed.


 
Freudian indeed - these are Toby's parents:

http://www.nosacredcows.co.uk/golden_oldies/354/sasha_moorsom_young_19311993.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Young_(politician)

It must be tough to grow up as the child of parents so blatantly and publicly socialist, but that's no excuse for Young being such a reactionary twat....


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 25, 2011)

Yossarian said:


> Freudian indeed - these are Toby's parents:
> 
> http://www.nosacredcows.co.uk/golden_oldies/354/sasha_moorsom_young_19311993.html
> 
> ...



Oh, the shame!


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 25, 2011)

The Woodcraft Folk are organising lots of things for kids both on the march, and also in Hyde Park.

http://www.woodcraft.org.uk/activities/woodcraft-folk-tuc-march


----------



## IC3D (Mar 25, 2011)

Guineveretoo said:


> The Woodcraft Folk are organising lots of things for kids both on the march, and also in Hyde Park.
> 
> http://www.woodcraft.org.uk/activities/woodcraft-folk-tuc-march


 
Excellent.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 25, 2011)

Got off the train at euston this evening and the plod were pulling people on the platform and questioning them about whether they were going to the march, where were they staying, etc??

Clunts are already trying it on.

Anyways I is in Brixton plotting.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 25, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> Got off the train at euston this evening and the plod were pulling people on the platform and questioning them about whether they were going to the march, where were they staying, etc??
> 
> Clunts are already trying it on.
> 
> Anyways I is in Brixton plotting.


 
really?? I am sitting cheering this already in Edinburgh btw, give 'em hell folks!


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 25, 2011)

Fuck the police.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 25, 2011)

To be honest I'd be wary of the Curzon Street convergence space. It's such an obvious target for the police - I'll be surprised if they don't shut it down either tonight or tomorrow morning.


----------



## killer b (Mar 25, 2011)

apparently yougov have 52% approval for tomorrows march btw. 32% against.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 25, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> if anyone wants my moby number (so as to hook up with me) please PM me


 
Great, take it we can go for a pint then?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 25, 2011)

killer b said:


> apparently yougov have 52% approval for tomorrows march btw. 32% against.



However

Guardian/ICM poll finds 57% support for current or deeper cuts, despite a fall in economic confidence

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/mar/25/voters-cuts-coalition-poll


----------



## killer b (Mar 25, 2011)

but they also have the lib dems on 16%.


----------



## killer b (Mar 25, 2011)

also, fuck you.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 25, 2011)

killer b said:


> also, fuck you.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 25, 2011)

killer b said:


> but they also have the lib dems on 16%.


 
Yea but when you add the Conservative vote that's way more than Labour.


----------



## killer b (Mar 25, 2011)

it's also way more than reality.

fuck you.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 25, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Oh, the shame!



I just told the fool on Twitter his parents would have been so ashamed of him.  "Know my parents, did you?", he responded. "No. You?", I said. Fucking pillock.


----------



## nick h. (Mar 25, 2011)

Do you reckon the mood will be energized by the recent displays of people power in Arab countries? We've had non-stop adverts for revolution for weeks and weeks.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 25, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> I just told the fool on Twitter his parents would have been so ashamed of him.  "Know my parents, did you?", he responded. "No. You?", I said. Fucking pillock.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2011)

moon23 said:


> However
> 
> Guardian/ICM poll finds 57% support for current or deeper cuts, despite a fall in economic confidence
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/mar/25/voters-cuts-coalition-poll



Yeah, so how was the poll conducted, what was the size of the sample and what was the margin for error? Furthermore, are you using that poll as a justification for: a) your continued existence and b) as a vindication of your glorious government's economic strategies (such as they are)?

I'd like to see how the questions were phrased - having once worked in market research, I know how these things work. How much do the respondents understand phrases such as "structural deficit", "budget deficit" and "national debt". Also how have they obtained their knowledge/information of the cuts and why do they think they are necessary? I smell a poll full of loaded questions. Over to you.

I'll save you some time. I found this


> ICM Research interviewed a random sample of 1014 adults aged 18+ by telephone on 23-24 March 2011. Interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults.



Of course, people can and do say anything over the telephone.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 26, 2011)

Toby would welcome free and frank discussion of his parents' thoughts on his political opportunism and social parasitism as well as other topics:

Tobyyoung@mac.com


----------



## You'reAToryToo (Mar 26, 2011)

Here we go! Setting off soon.


----------



## militant atheist (Mar 26, 2011)

On our way!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 26, 2011)

Good luck everyone. I love you.


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 26, 2011)

Not sure if I can come now


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 26, 2011)

Ow my head.


----------



## shagnasty (Mar 26, 2011)

To all who are going ,be safe and may the force be with you(not the police force that is)


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

make the streets run red with the blood of the enemy.


----------



## xes (Mar 26, 2011)

*echos fractionmans sentiments*

now, do you think it is wise to eat a chicken shish kebab for breakfast, bearing in mind I may get trapped a long way away from a toilet......... Wharra quandry


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

do it you soft cunt.


----------



## flickerx (Mar 26, 2011)

any hash tags on twitter to look at for updates?


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

#26march is the main one, but i imagine the usual ukuncut/solidarity/etc tags will have stuff too.


----------



## xes (Mar 26, 2011)

killer b said:


> do it you soft cunt.


 
you're right, I can always shite in a bag and throw it at the old bill


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

if you get proper dysentry, you can just drop your pants and point your arse in the right direction.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Ow my head.


 
That's an expected penalty staying with me! Now just got to get gloworm and fractionman out of bed.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)




----------



## stuff_it (Mar 26, 2011)

Look I know I probably missed it, but is everyone meeting anywhere or owt?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2011)

<ego massage> 

The message remains relevant!


----------



## xes (Mar 26, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Look I know I probably missed it, but is everyone meeting anywhere or owt?


 
I think quite a few are meeting at the south london feeder march, which starts somewhere near Oval I think. I'm sure someone'll add more to that


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm not sure if I can make it to Oval, I am of the north (outside london even) and I can't see myself having time to get there.


----------



## flickerx (Mar 26, 2011)

Is there any point in starting a new thread for just live updates from people during the day (and no commentary/opinions) ?

I dont really know how to use Twitter or where to go for info on protests and stuff, apart from here.


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 26, 2011)

Doesn't look like I can come at all - is there an after party?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 26, 2011)

.


----------



## xes (Mar 26, 2011)

Right, I'm nearly ready, not going to have time to make sarnies, so I'll do a spot of shopping on the way.

see who ever I see, when ever I see ya. 

Here's to returning unharmed. *raises cup of tea*


----------



## rekil (Mar 26, 2011)

killer b said:


> make the streets run red with the blood of the enemy.


Attention Skynews, if you're on here again can you make an aghast Kay Burley read this ^^ out later pls thx cunts. 

_Throw a few fucks into them._


----------



## bingiman (Mar 26, 2011)

setting off now


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 26, 2011)

nearly out the door yo


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 26, 2011)

It's gunna be a cracker.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 26, 2011)

On my way down there now... if I spot any faces I recognise I'll pop over and say hello.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 26, 2011)

Good luck everyone, hope it all goes as intended...


----------



## Geri (Mar 26, 2011)

Just had a text from butchers. He says the motorway is packed with coaches and the services are full of people, all going to the demo. I kind of wish I had gone now.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2011)

Heading off now. It's going to be *massive*!


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 26, 2011)

It already is massive. So much so, that they are setting off early, in order to release the pressure of people on the embankment!  Apparently, late comers will have to join from the back, as there will not be an opportunity to join in as the march goes along.


----------



## Lakina (Mar 26, 2011)

Good luck everyone!


----------



## mango5 (Mar 26, 2011)

That's what the police are advising, in any case. Not sure it'll work.


----------



## Callie (Mar 26, 2011)

Where are the south London feeder urban contingent? Bit scared to join cos ill get lost!


----------



## bi0boy (Mar 26, 2011)

copliker said:


> Attention Skynews, if you're on here again can you make an aghast Kay Burley read this ^^ out later pls thx cunts.
> 
> _Throw a few fucks into them._


 
Sky News reporter saying the protesters around Piccadilly Circus are peaceful but "there are other sort of anarchist groups somewhere I don't know"


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2011)

The march is absolutely massive - any news on crowd estimates?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2011)

editor said:


> The march is absolutely massive - any news on crowd estimates?


 
Anything from 100,000-450,000  

I think a figure of 250,000-300,000 will be the one reported though.

I think TUC expected 100,000 but there's obviously more.  Depends on who you're watching


----------



## bi0boy (Mar 26, 2011)

Paint being thrown at police/TopShop on Oxford street who are making arrests amid the smoke from flares.


----------



## bi0boy (Mar 26, 2011)

Police state "lightbulbs filled with ammonia" thrown at them...wtf?? Surely "bottles of piss"....who'd go to the trouble of filling a lightbulb with ammonia?


----------



## Lakina (Mar 26, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Police state "lightbulbs filled with ammonia" thrown at them...wtf?? Surely "bottles of piss"....who'd go to the trouble of filling a lightbulb with ammonia?



I would have trouble filling a bottle - I'm not very accurate.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 26, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> Police state "lightbulbs filled with ammonia" thrown at them...wtf?? Surely "bottles of piss"....who'd go to the trouble of filling a lightbulb with ammonia?


 
How would you even fill up a lightbulb?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 26, 2011)

What is the point in damaging Fortnum  & Masons?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Mar 26, 2011)

Symbolic apparently. Qu'ils ne mangent pas de la brioche, or something.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 26, 2011)

moon23 said:


> What is the point in damaging Fortnum  & Masons?


 
It'll annoy cunts like you?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 26, 2011)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It'll annoy cunts like you?


 
It doesn't really annoy me, I find it quite amusing watching the anarchists and SWP smash stuff up and it only helps discredit the general point of the march.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2011)

moon23 said:


> How would you even fill up a lightbulb?


 
If it's an old-fashioned incandescent bulb, you can inject fluid in through the mounting, as I know from youthful pyro experiments. *Filling* a lightbulb would take ages, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2011)

moon23 said:


> What is the point in damaging Fortnum  & Masons?


 
Have you seen their prices lately?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2011)

moon23 said:


> It doesn't really annoy me, I find it quite amusing watching the anarchists and SWP smash stuff up and it only helps discredit the general point of the march.


 
Proof that those causing disruption are "anarchists and SWP", please.

I mean, obviously most people reading your cockamamie utterances realise you're talking shit based on your ignorance and prejudice, but I like to force you to acknowledge your own despicable crassness occasionally.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 26, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Proof that those causing disruption are "anarchists and SWP", please.



It's because that bastion of balanced reporting, the BBC, have said so about 50 times now. So it's true in Moon world.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2011)

moon23 said:


> It doesn't really annoy me, I find it quite amusing watching the anarchists and SWP smash stuff up and it only helps discredit the general point of the march.


 
Not really because they are a very small minority


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 26, 2011)

Lol at the idea of the SWP being in Oxford street  Probably the one area around there at the moment where nobody will try to sell you a paper.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 26, 2011)

editor said:


> The march is absolutely massive - any news on crowd estimates?


 
It took four hours to pass. I heard years ago that an estimate of 100k per hour is usually accurate, so 400k


----------



## hipipol (Mar 26, 2011)

i find joy in the idea that as the boat race lovers tuck in to their hampers the 'Royal' suppliers get battered

I recall the Poll Tax 'riot'

Got a nice bottle of champous meself


----------



## magneze (Mar 26, 2011)

Home now. It was huuuuge. Brilliant atmosphere with drummers and assorted music. I bow to fractionMan and his suitcase-sound-system. Truly inspired.


----------



## Ceej (Mar 26, 2011)

Absolutely stonking good day - all very good natured, great music, chilled people.

We were outside Fortnums when the few people climbed up, all a bit of a non-event, though they did open a window, hang a banner and chalk on the walls -  gave us all a laugh. I have no idea how they managed to amass so many police wagons...every road we looked down had about a dozen parked up. Every bloody house in London was probably broken into today -there can't have been a rozzer free for miles.

eta: 400,000 being reported...


----------



## magneze (Mar 26, 2011)

The Guardian have just blogged "around 500,000"...


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2011)

After Toby Young's laughable piece, Hannan sticks his oar in. Check out the title "March for the Alternative'? WHAT alternative"? 
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100081436/march-for-the-alternative-what-alternative/

He's not aware of any alternative because he thinks TINA.  There's a lamppost with his name on.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 26, 2011)

Back now. Amazing day - wonderful vibe. So many people, lots of noise and colour. Started off at Pink & Black Bloc to the sound of someone with a soundsystem on a bike which got everyone into the mood  

Word got around at one point that people from the South London feeder had started to approach, and then get over Westminster Bridge 

Got a bit sidetracked from that and headed on down to Oxford St to see what was going on - lively scenes. Then went to Green Park originally planning to get down to Hyde Park but heard it all kicking off at Piccadilly.

Was going to check what was going on but getting to Regent St and seeing the riot cops rolling in and hearing various reports of what was going off down Piccadilly, kept a distance - couldn't be done with getting caught up with things.


----------



## girasol (Mar 26, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> nearly out the door yo



You're a star!  Suitcase crew   Nice to meet you.


----------



## Sean (Mar 26, 2011)

Just back with the family. Good fun all round. Stayed clear of trouble as the kids are young, but we had a good 2 minutes of swearing outside Downing Street and the kids enjoyed the noise and atmosphere. Mammoth turnout so all good.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 26, 2011)

Missed fractionman and you guys  Glad u had a good'un


----------



## Stoat Boy (Mar 26, 2011)

Part of me is pleased that the Black flag mob have gone on the rampage today and I cannot imagine to many people shedding tears when they saw those banks getting smashed up.

I could have bought into this notion of the main march and rally meaning something important if they had not allowed that prat Milliband and numerous other NLW's to use it to just carry on playing the same political game that has got us in this shit in the first place.

It was truly sickening to see his cuntish little speech especially given his role in the previous Labour regime and for me him being allowed to speak like totally devalued the whole day, at least from the offical part of it.

But those people in masks smashing the s*** out of the banks and so on represented at least in my eyes a far more genuine and honest anger than that other load of staged party political bollocks at Hyde Park.

Give me the honesty of UK uncut and other such groups any day of the week. I doubt I would agree with them on almost anything but at least they are have a genuine passion that can be respected.


----------



## Thora (Mar 26, 2011)

We had a good day too - started off with the buggy bloc then went for a nosey at Oxford Circus but managed to (narrowly!) avoid any trouble.  Huuuge numbers on the march though, couldn't believe how many were at Embankment this morning.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

lol. i agree with every word stoaty.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 26, 2011)

killer b said:


> lol. i agree with every word stoaty.



Innit! I'm going for a lay down!


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

nah, he often talks sense, just has a different perspective. that i mainly disagree with vehemently.


----------



## xes (Mar 26, 2011)

Walked back down picadilly on the way home, with a family and their kids (around 5-7 years old) who were all chanting "we hate tories and we hate tories" I congratulated the mother on raising her kids proper


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

xes said:


> Walked back down picadilly on the way home, with a family and their kids (around 5-7 years old) who were all chanting "we hate tories and we hate tories" I congratulated the mother on raising her kids proper


 
they need to learn the lib dem verse of the song.


----------



## xes (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm sure it;s not long off


----------



## magneze (Mar 26, 2011)

xes said:


> Walked back down picadilly on the way home, with a family and their kids (around 5-7 years old) who were all chanting "we hate tories and we hate tories" I congratulated the mother on raising her kids proper


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2011)

at one point we I strolled past a confused looking man standing by his BMW in the middle of the road. Next time I glanced he was smiling and had a sticker on his forehead 

4 copters by my count. Babylon etc


----------



## tar1984 (Mar 26, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> Part of me is pleased that the Black flag mob have gone on the rampage today and I cannot imagine to many people shedding tears when they saw those banks getting smashed up.
> 
> I could have bought into this notion of the main march and rally meaning something important if they had not allowed that prat Milliband and numerous other NLW's to use it to just carry on playing the same political game that has got us in this shit in the first place.
> 
> ...



Good post.  I was thinking the same on miliband, opportunistic fucker, if he was in govt he'd be doing the same no doubt, wouldn't trust that cunt at all.


----------



## girasol (Mar 26, 2011)

Some photos here







We counted 12 riot police vans zooming past us when we were heading to Hyde Park, I think they were going toward the fire in Oxford Circus?


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2011)

Aye, great march. I even heckled Milly Band. When is the next demo?


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 26, 2011)

Was working, so couldn't make it, but I've had the news on in the background all afternoon, Sky News showed a bit of Libyan TV reporting it was an anti-war march.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2011)

I saw that legend

I did have to remonstrate with someone carrying a banner calling clegg a pleb. I informed him that clegg was an ex 28k a year schoolboy and as plebian as a golden turd. Like the cunt that I am I wished him a good day and carried on having satisfied the niggling annoyance that had been at me for half an hour marching behind him


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I saw that legend
> 
> I did have to remonstrate with someone carrying a banner calling clegg a pleb. I informed him that clegg was an ex 28k a year schoolboy and as plebian as a golden turd. Like the cunt that I am I wished him a good day and carried on having satisfied the niggling annoyance that had been at me for half an hour marching behind him


----------



## Geri (Mar 26, 2011)

Well, I haven't heard from butchers since 4.30 pm.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2011)

There's some good trolling to be had on Hannan's blog


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 26, 2011)

Geri said:


> Well, I haven't heard from butchers since 4.30 pm.


 
Hello Geri - I hope he's alright and that he gives you a call soon. You missed a good day out; my daughter was most impressed with the whole thing, especially the 'balaclava people'.

Cheers and take care - Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2011)

ten wickets

He is probably drowning his sorrows.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 26, 2011)

lol what the hell happen! watching on sky news...


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 26, 2011)

Funny how Sky's numbers don't tally with the BBC's. I wonder why that is? 

Who's up for a visit to Wapping and Isleworth?


----------



## Geri (Mar 26, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Hello Geri - I hope he's alright and that he gives you a call soon. You missed a good day out; my daughter was most impressed with the whole thing, especially the 'balaclava people'.
> 
> Cheers and take care - Louis MacNeice


 
Yeah, I kind of wish I had gone now!


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

he's dancing to jungle in trafalgar square. with laurie penny.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 26, 2011)

killer b said:


> he's dancing to jungle in trafalgar square. with laurie penny.


 



Hope he checks in soon, Geri.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 26, 2011)

overheard spanish people in the metro talking about how impressive the demo was. Made me proud


----------



## Mation (Mar 26, 2011)

Crispy posting

great day out 
seeing the march lined up along the embankment, as far as the eye could see from westminster bridge. awe inspiring
lots of 'normal people' not just the unions
samba bands, bicycle sound systems, carnival atmosphere at times
we peeled off and followed a soundsystem. saw lots of aftermath of the balaclava people, paint everywhere. a rather cack-handed police surge and subsequent retreat outside the ukuncut Fortnum & Mason occupation.
as the light fell and the balaclavas settled into the police fighting, we retired to the pub and watched it all unfold from a birds eye view on tv.

agree with the above - couldnt stand going to hyde park to see ed fucking milliband, but the 'genuine anger' seemed to me at least to be the standard black-clad anarkid brigade breaking shit cos it's the man's shit and.... yeah... grrrrr I'm gonna break some shit. i feel angry, but i don't believe for a second that throwing paint at a shop is going to make any difference whatsoever to the inequalities and injustices that inspire that anger. discuss


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 26, 2011)




----------



## bi0boy (Mar 26, 2011)

Mation said:


> but the 'genuine anger' seemed to me at least to be the standard black-clad anarkid brigade breaking shit cos it's the man's shit and.... yeah... grrrrr I'm gonna break some shit. i feel angry, but i don't believe for a second that throwing paint at a shop is going to make any difference whatsoever to the inequalities and injustices that inspire that anger. discuss


 
It might have a slight chance of making more of a difference than sitting in a pub watching it on TV and pontificating about it on the interwebs


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2011)

bonus points for the man with signs saying masons killed diana, pitched up at the entrance to ?fenchurch?. Is he a regular fixture.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 26, 2011)

bi0boy said:


> It might have a slight chance of making more of a difference than sitting in a pub watching it on TV and pontificating about it on the interwebs


 
We shall see. Let me know how much global capitalism is reeling after today's activities. I am willing to be swayed by evidence.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 26, 2011)

actually, feel a bit crap for stirring this argument up. i share anger and motives with anyone who threw paint today and we can argue about methods over a pint sometime please


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 26, 2011)

like anything it's a legitimate tactic under certain circumstances, just depends how it's done innit. 

and if throwing paint at a window is "violence" then, well, sorry ...


----------



## Crispy (Mar 26, 2011)

wish I could post some of the argument from the room here 
i think the most persuasive one is "I'd rather the kids threw paint at cops than sat at home on playstation" which I cant argue with at all


----------



## Voley (Mar 26, 2011)

I sat at home and pontificated on the internet. I won't be next time.


----------



## tar1984 (Mar 26, 2011)

^^^same







^^^ for the lols


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 26, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> Part of me is pleased that the Black flag mob have gone on the rampage today and I cannot imagine to many people shedding tears when they saw those banks getting smashed up.
> 
> I could have bought into this notion of the main march and rally meaning something important if they had not allowed that prat Milliband and numerous other NLW's to use it to just carry on playing the same political game that has got us in this shit in the first place.
> 
> ...


 
agree with every word.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 26, 2011)

Geri said:


> Well, I haven't heard from butchers since 4.30 pm.


 
About the same time we lost the cricket.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 26, 2011)

twiter
@mrmarksteel 
It was a wonderfully heartening march today (though according to the news it was 8 arsonists setting a bin alight and summoning the devil).


----------



## Geri (Mar 26, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> About the same time we lost the cricket.


 
He can't be crying into his beer, he hasn't got enough money.


----------



## rekil (Mar 26, 2011)

The Mail headline is priceless. 

RITZKRIEG


----------



## IC3D (Mar 26, 2011)

Fucking irony Sky discussing how the TUC march has been overshadowed by violence whilst they stream live pictures of it.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 26, 2011)

copliker said:


> The Mail headline is priceless.
> 
> RITZKRIEG


 
Of course the Daily Mail would be the first newspaper to give an incisive commentary around that slogan, given their firm and principled stance against fascist aggression in the 30s


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 26, 2011)

Telegraph online front page


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 26, 2011)

copliker said:


> The Mail headline is priceless.
> 
> RITZKRIEG


 

that is fucking gold.


----------



## killer b (Mar 26, 2011)

they pay the best in the industry, i'd expect nothing else.


----------



## rekil (Mar 26, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Of course the Daily Mail would be the first newspaper to give an incisive commentary around that slogan, given their firm and principled stance against fascist aggression in the 30s


 There is that, and we all know about it, but credit where credit is due. It's nearly up there with The Sun's 'Shoots You Sir' headline about Gianni Versace's murder.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 26, 2011)

my god did they really write that?


----------



## tar1984 (Mar 26, 2011)

That was the star or the daily sport or some such comic that did the shoots you sir headline.  Not that the sun isn't a comic, but it was one of the papers that would run an 'aliens founds on mars' type story that did that headline.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 26, 2011)

Anyone know what the "legal observers" from liberty were doing btw?


----------



## IC3D (Mar 27, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Anyone know what the "legal observers" from liberty were doing btw?


 
I only saw them writing in notepads outside smashed up banks.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 27, 2011)

copliker said:


> The Mail headline is priceless.
> 
> RITZKRIEG


 
That is priceless.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 27, 2011)

Geri said:


> Well, I haven't heard from butchers since 4.30 pm.


 
I sent Fed a text at about 1pm that he didn't get til 6pm and heard nothing in the meantime. I think mobile networks have been creaking a bit today.


----------



## PumpingStation (Mar 27, 2011)

Great day. I took a bunch of novices who were genuinly inspired.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 27, 2011)

Great day!

Went to the South London Feeder, which featured the Trojan Horse (RIP I believe).  Was encouraging to see everyone decide to take the more direct route over Westminster Bridge in the end.

After hitting Hyde Park and listening to the first bit of Miliband's speech (well before most must have got there), headed off to Oxford Street.

The road was heaving with people all over, chanting outside shops and trying to keep doors open to banks, with the police trying to cope.

Ended up outside the newly redecorated Topshop, with a Police Guard in place.  Then the Trojan Horse arrived, along with various other marches, including a group with Charlie from The Love Police.  He's pretty amusing and instigated a kettle of 4 cops on Regent Street, which saw them leg it!  We hung around at Oxford Circus 'til half 3 when people started heading down Regent Street.  People kept counting down from 10 at Oxford Circus and then cheering for about half an hour.  They were joining in the countdown on the pedestrian crossings!

After a break in a pub, we headed for the Fortnum & Mason occupation, but it was well sealed off.  Strange considering the later reports about how it was peaceful.  So then it was off to Trafalgar Square, which all seemed quite peaceful.  Was getting quite cold and tired, so headed home and fell asleep in front of BBC24...

Then read about Trafalgar Square kicking off on Twitter, so went back at about 11pm to check it out.  Everything was sealed off, but I progressed around through the side streets round the other side, you could get right in.  Small group were kettled at the back of Nelson Column, with police surrounding the plaza stopping people getting close.  Hung around for hours, watching people get arrested or get wound up.  Seemed to be quite a bit of inebriation going on.  The roads all round were littered with glass.

As people slowly filtered out, some of them predictably gathered outside the cordon.

Then, man with a bike soundsytem decided to stop in the road and before long there was a group having a party, blocking traffic.  Police arrived and cleared them, but they regathered and carried on.  Eventually, the police kettled them in the centre of the roundabout, dragged the bike soundsystem out, which resulted in its owner hitting the deck quite hard.

By this time, it was starting to get thin on the ground with protesters and I figured there weren't many left in the nelson's column kettle, so I headed home at about 1:30am (GMT)

Presumably they'll clear everyone out, so I guess that's the end of the 'stay in trafalgar square' protest.  Funny how the media would be pouring scorn on that if it happened in Tahir Square.

Plenty of police were seen heading off, in their little hire minibuses and the odd coach.  Like a little policeman's holiday outing.

Oh.  And I still haven't worked out how to get a decent picture of police at night, as the flash just seems to result in a black pictures with some reflective strips...


----------



## Weller (Mar 27, 2011)

so what happened to the Sukey app  did anyone actually use it or was it used to help the met I didnt hear it mentioned by anyone   - noticed this vid  is  linked on their site  but not too much else


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 27, 2011)

Well, that was all very satisfactory.
Same again next weekend, right? 

Didn't manage to meet most of the people I'd hoped to, but ended up bumping into loads of other people I haven't seen for years, which was top. And none of my nearest & dearest got nicked. Result.


----------



## killer b (Mar 27, 2011)

is everyone accounted for?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 27, 2011)

killer b said:


> is everyone accounted for?



Plenty of people who I'm waiting to turn up to hear their stories of the day. Butchers & discokermit immediately spring to mind.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 27, 2011)

PT?


----------



## Voley (Mar 27, 2011)

Yeah, I'm hoping all the urbs got home safely too.


----------



## southside (Mar 27, 2011)

It looked pretty cool on the news, all those people showing their solidarity against the cuts is a pretty powerful message although I don't agree with violence to people but smashing up icons of capitalism and breaking into tax dodgers businesses is fair enough.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 27, 2011)

It's early yet. Many will be on floors still. Trickle of news throughout the day. Luckily I'm off to see my nanna so there might be a nice big wodge when I get back.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 27, 2011)

I was marching right next to the Times journalist David Aaronovitch at one point. I coulda hit him with my banner but and I didn't, and that's the tragedy.


----------



## discokermit (Mar 27, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Plenty of people who I'm waiting to turn up to hear their stories of the day. Butchers & discokermit immediately spring to mind.


 
i had a lovely stroll in good company. me and my brother popped along to oxford street later, found it full of slightly annoying kids, realised we were getting old, went home and slept.


----------



## discokermit (Mar 27, 2011)

stephj said:


> PT?


 
was with me. left him at hyde park corner.


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 27, 2011)

Liberty legal observers: Basically pcso for the day. Agreement met suggested to tuc that liberty would be good to provide observers, and that they would relay info to the police about developments on the day. Legal observers were sat in the police control room. apparently mostly  law students. Liberty agreed to be impartial observers, and to testify against both police and protestors in court, providing evidence to the police if need be. The deal w/liberty providing legal obs meant that all other legal observers from other groups were pretty much disregarded and, at one point, some were arrested. Allegedly, innit.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 27, 2011)

I was baby sitting yesterday and watching the coverage on 24 hour rolling news.

The reporting on all stations started off positive with a genuine attempt at interviewing protesters to find out the reasons why they were attending but by mid-afternoon onwards all that was pushed aside.

The argument against cuts has not be won yet and there is a need to enter into dialogue with people. Having some spotty yoot running around throwing paint bombs and spraying graffiti doesn't achieve that.

Violence is a tool and should not be used as a matter of routine or fetishised.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 27, 2011)

By the way, I hope all you armchair warriors are going to contribute to the inevitable legal defence fund ...


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 27, 2011)

****


----------



## revlon (Mar 27, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I was baby sitting yesterday and watching the coverage on 24 hour rolling news.
> 
> The reporting on all stations started off positive with a genuine attempt at interviewing protesters to find out the reasons why they were attending but by mid-afternoon onwards all that was pushed aside.
> 
> ...



1. is attacking buildings 'violence'? Actually very little violence by the black bloc kiddies, police on the other hand happily baton the fuck out of people.

2. winning what argument with whom? Ed miliband talking at a tuc rally about the cuts is a bigger fucking turn off than any media fetishisation of the black blockers.

3. It's the media who fetishise the black bloc, just a bunch of kids getting on with it, don't want to be filmed frankly.

4. How is smashing up the ritz preventing you with your dialogue and winning your argument (an argument with whom? Diffrent people who are having their libraries closed? Different sorts of people who are losing their jobs, having local services cut? People who need to be "won over by the argument" (a bit of a give away there) as opposed to people angry about the cuts, the tories and ed fucking miliband's new labour media army?


----------



## Geri (Mar 27, 2011)

I think attacking property _is_ violence. I'm not condemning it, I understand it. But I think to claim it isn't violence is a bit nonsensical.


----------



## Thora (Mar 27, 2011)

How can you be violent to a building?  That's nonsensical.


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 27, 2011)

Of course it was violence. It actually reminded me of what happened to the May Day marches and anti-globalisation protests 10 years ago - just a set-to against the the old Bill with very little political content. It was the opposite of what was needed yesterday.


----------



## Sean (Mar 27, 2011)

I know we should rise above this kind of fuckspuddery and provocation but I couldn't help getting riled at the drivel in the Telegraph (www .telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8409259/TUC-march-How-a-family-day-out-turned-to-mayhem.html )


----------



## Sean (Mar 27, 2011)

They appear to have banned the most extreme fucktard on there, so that's nice.


----------



## revlon (Mar 27, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> Of course it was violence. It actually reminded me of what happened to the May Day marches and anti-globalisation protests 10 years ago - just a set-to against the the old Bill with very little political content. It was the opposite of what was needed yesterday.


 
what i saw was very little confrontation with the police by the black bloc, in fact they spent most of the day avoiding confronation with the police. 

I'm not in a political party so i don't know what was needed, but in terms of the march - a sense of collective purpose, that there is a mass people rather than just you in your local cuts groups trying to save the local swimming pool, who actively oppose the cuts. The fact that somewhere across town a few people expressed their rage by smashing up a few banks, doesn't in anyway take away from that does it? 

Actually reminded me of the poll tax riots, only a lot less violent.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 27, 2011)

Geri said:


> I think attacking property _is_ violence. I'm not condemning it, I understand it. But I think to claim it isn't violence is a bit nonsensical.


 
Attacking property owned  by multinational corporations is not violent IMO.

(did butchers get back OK?)


----------



## Geri (Mar 27, 2011)

Thora said:


> How can you be violent to a building?  That's nonsensical.


 
So you would never describe a storm as violent?


----------



## Balbi (Mar 27, 2011)

briefly saw wiskey and jtg on piccadilly


----------



## revlon (Mar 27, 2011)

Geri said:


> So you would never describe a storm as violent?


 
or a demoliton crew as a violent job? Can of worms


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 27, 2011)

From Google dictionary:



> Behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone *or something*



http://www.google.com/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&q=violence&hl=en

Argument settled


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Plenty of people who I'm waiting to turn up to hear their stories of the day. Butchers & discokermit immediately spring to mind.


 


stephj said:


> PT?


 
Can attest for both myself and DK being safe and sound


----------



## moon23 (Mar 27, 2011)

Q. Why did the SWP 'occupy' Fortnum & Mason?
A. Because proper tea is theft.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Q. Why did the SWP 'occupy' Fortnum & Mason?
> A. Because proper tea is theft.


 
Except they didn't you clueless dick. And old joke is shit. Fuck off.


----------



## partyzan (Mar 27, 2011)

But surely when violence is political in nature, which is what we tended to see on our screens yesterday, then this places it in an entirely different context.


----------



## boohoo (Mar 27, 2011)

Good march - great to see such a good turn out. 

Knew it would kick off - always does and right wing press will always focus on that and it will mean that most other points of the march will be lost over the sensationalist reporting of a few paint bomb. smashed windows and a mini riot. I mean what do most people want to read in the newspaper - boring long political rants or the juiciness of riots and destruction. Your average person will be talking about the destruction on monday and what a disgrace that was entirely missing the point that the anger is vented against these business because their owners are avoiding paying their taxes.

It's good to see young people being passionate about this type of thing however we need better action than some paint bombs. If you don't like these big companies, don't buy from them!  

Anyway, I could go off on a big tangent here but I won't. Well done to all who went!


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> old joke is shit



It is indeed an old and shit joke, but Santino was allowed to get away with it yesterday unscathed.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It is indeed an old and shit joke, but Santino was allowed to get away with it yesterday unscathed.


 
I wasn't here.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 27, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Q. Why did the SWP 'occupy' Fortnum & Mason?
> A. Because proper tea is theft.


 
Don't give up your day job (as apologist for this discredited government and the busted flush that is neoliberalism).


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Except they didn't you clueless dick. And old joke is shit. Fuck off.


 
Here's a new one: why did Nick Clegg cross the road?







because he said he wouldn't.


----------



## boohoo (Mar 27, 2011)

Interestingly if you do the maths, much press has been generated by some trouble - that's 0.08% of the march taking up much of the reporting ( based on figure of 250,000 attendees and 200 'activists'.)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2011)

Balbi said:


> briefly saw wiskey and jtg on piccadilly


 
They were on television


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 27, 2011)

I think the Proudhon joke is a good one, but I'm a sucker for puns


----------



## revlon (Mar 27, 2011)

maybe this is the issue? Anonymous violent fuckers ruin milibands big media moment. If the black bloc threw a spanner in new labour's pr objective, well played. 

_It was the timing that Labour's high command had been dreading. At the very moment their party leader began his speech at the anti-cuts rally in Hyde Park, anarchists wearing masks and waving red flags began attacking shops and banks in Oxford Street.
For several minutes, live television pictures of the violence were accompanied by words from Ed Miliband. _
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...as-riots-start-as-he-speaks-at-cut-rally.html


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 27, 2011)

Always worth reposting:


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 27, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Always worth reposting:




Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 27, 2011)

... or should that be ConDemed to repeat it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 27, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> ... or should that be ConDemed to repeat it.


----------



## revlon (Mar 27, 2011)

guess who said about the tuc rally yesterday

"This has been middle Britain speaking"

not the same person who said

"These are the voices of the mainstream majority in our country... "The duty of my party is to stand up for that mainstream majority"


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 27, 2011)

Oh! Forgot to add: saw Paul Mason tagging along for a bit, he's shorter than I'd expected. Still strangely-attractive though <wibble>
Also, Mark Thomas waved at me, w00t


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 27, 2011)

On my way home last night I walked through Cambridge Circus. Would you fucking believe it Globalise Resistance, (who I thought was dead and buried) were trying to give the impression they trashed HSBC there.

They were placing their crappy orange flags around the Circus.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 27, 2011)

G.R did break the kettle on Piccadilly. My mates were inside and from out of a side street came about fifty or sixty G.R lot and hared down to the police lines, kettle broke about five minutes later. 







Terrified members of the public


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 27, 2011)

Did anyone else see the leaflets from the Money Supply Reform Party? Do they win the 'best political fringe group' award? 

Edit: watching a Swappie try and sell papers to about 20 black bloc was a definite bit of light relief ...  Top marks to him for effort, at least


----------



## YouSir (Mar 27, 2011)

Anyone know what, if anything, happened at the Leicester Square Odeon? Had a giant black and red flag hanging from it when I went past and a couple of Black Blockers on the roof. Kudos to them however they did it.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 27, 2011)

I was disappointed I didn't get any truly bonkers leaflets this time 

Wish I had seen that one!


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 27, 2011)

Dan U said:


> I was disappointed I didn't get any truly bonkers leaflets this time
> 
> Wish I had seen that one!


 
We need an entirely new valuation basis for our currency apparently. Once that's done, all the other stuff will fall into place.


----------



## girasol (Mar 27, 2011)

Crispy said:


> wish I could post some of the argument from the room here
> i think the most persuasive one is "I'd rather the kids threw paint at cops than sat at home on playstation" which I cant argue with at all



I think the throwing of paint/grafitti etc is a valid way of venting frustration - but the thing is, it costs money to clean it all up, people spent the whole night cleaning the buildings, and I'm pretty sure we had to pay for that.  Waste of money... 

Similarly it costs a lot of money to deal with violent situations, those coppers don't come cheap.  And at the end of the day, although it might be quite an event for the people involved, I'm not sure it makes a difference.  It just grabs the headlines and gives the establishment more ammunition not to listen!

So what makes a difference?  I don't know, but general strike sounds like a good thing as the next step.  It's better to take action united, then to let inner divisions paralyse everyone. 

And I'm glad I missed Milliband's speech, the other ones we saw were pretty good and inspiring.

meh, I wish I'd been in the room!


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 27, 2011)

Hannan posted this er, gem


> Two questions that struck me, watching the marchers.
> 
> 1. Why do people dependent on the state for their income call themselves 'anarchists'?
> 
> 2. Do the Socialist Workers include any, you know, workers?



One question struck me while I was reading this comment, why is he so fucking thick?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Coordinated action - a 24 hour public sector strike. Hit the fuckers where it hurts.


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Coordinated action - a 24 hour public sector strike. Hit the fuckers where it hurts.



Would that include medical personel?


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Coordinated action - a 24 hour public sector strike. Hit the fuckers where it hurts.


 
The trouble is that doesn't hit the fuckers where it hurts them.  The people in power use so little of public services.  Emergency health care, refuse collections and patching up the roads are the only things I can think of apart from the police/armed forces who are forbidden from striking.  I'm not saying I have the answer, I just think some pretty creative thinking is required.


----------



## pk (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Except they didn't you clueless dick. And old joke is shit. Fuck off.


 
LOL take yourself seriously much?

Wadical dickweed is wadical...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 27, 2011)

pk said:


> LOL take yourself seriously much?
> 
> Wadical dickweed is wadical...


 
Eh, plenty people getting increasingly fucked off with Moon's endless factually inaccurate statements. Infantilising PT is a bit playground, to be honest.


----------



## pk (Mar 27, 2011)

I don't know what moon23 is about, just laughing at the class stwuggle mob who hate the world.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 27, 2011)

Just like to thank all the urbanites for their hospitality this weekend.  You're an awesome bunch


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 27, 2011)

pk said:


> I don't know what moon23 is about, just laughing at the class stwuggle mob who hate the world.



You're doing that thing again - dismissing very real political sensibilities as essentially childish; it's patronising to say the least.


----------



## rekil (Mar 27, 2011)

pk said:


> I don't know what moon23 is about, just laughing at the class stwuggle mob who hate the world.


----------



## Mation (Mar 27, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Just like to thank all the urbanites for their hospitality this weekend.  You're an awesome bunch


Great to meet you 

A fantastic day and demo in the main. I love the not just marching from a to be but breaking off and running (mostly not riot) all over the place for maximum pay-attention-to-this disruption. and brilliant to see so many younger people involved and engaged.

Brilliant pics, girasol


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Here's a new one: why did Nick Clegg cross the road?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
See, that's actually funny, whereas moon23 mangling an old joke is just plain cuntery.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

pk said:


> LOL take yourself seriously much?
> 
> Wadical dickweed is wadical...


 
You can't even characterise my politics correctly you fucking dribble. You appear to have me confused with some black-clad 20 year old screaming 'one solution, revolution'. Good luck to them but it isn't even remotely close to my political position. You don't have a fucking clue do you?

Firebombed any fascists lately pk lol.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

pk said:


> LOL take yourself seriously much?
> 
> Wadical dickweed is wadical...


 
Bad form, bringing your grudge against someone onto a fresh thread, old chap.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

spring-peeper said:


> Would that include medical personel?



Depends on the personnel, but yes of course many medical staff would be included.



Struwwelpeter said:


> The trouble is that doesn't hit the fuckers where it hurts them.  The people in power use so little of public services.  Emergency health care, refuse collections and patching up the roads are the only things I can think of apart from the police/armed forces who are forbidden from striking.  I'm not saying I have the answer, I just think some pretty creative thinking is required.


 
How would shutting down almost all government services not hurt the government?


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> You can't even characterise my politics correctly you fucking dribble. You appear to have me confused with some black-clad 20 year old screaming 'one solution, revolution'. Good luck to them but it isn't even remotely close to my political position. You don't have a fucking clue do you?
> 
> Firebombed any fascists lately pk lol.


 

Getting people mixed up is a pk speciality.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

spring-peeper said:


> Would that include medical personel?


 
Do they not have the right to strike?


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Do they not have the right to strike?



Not a clue.  That is why I asked.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 27, 2011)

I could only watch the events on telly yesterday but it looked like a fantastic turnout, I wish I could've been there. I thought the young people inside Fortnum and Mason were brilliant, peaceful direct action at its best, well done to all involved. 

A pity the day was spoiled by the usual acab bores though. Who the fuck do they think they represent? They achieve nothing, silly cunts.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Do you think they should have the right to strike sp? Or should they be denied the right to fight-back when they are attacked?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> I could only watch the events on telly yesterday... A pity the day was spoiled by the usual acab bores though. Who the fuck do they think they represent? They achieve nothing, silly cunts.



Lol


----------



## tar1984 (Mar 27, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A pity the day was spoiled by the usual acab bores though. Who the fuck do they think they represent? They achieve nothing, silly cunts.


 
Who said they were acab.  They were targetting banks mainly so abab would be more accurate


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2011)

why am I imagining Andrew Hertford shaking his haloed head at the tv while drinking a can of Directors Bitter?


----------



## YouSir (Mar 27, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A pity the day was spoiled by the usual acab bores though. Who the fuck do they think they represent? They achieve nothing, silly cunts.


 
Who?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2011)

still picking out minging black london bogies out of my nose. I forgot that london air is so soupy


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Depends on the personnel, but yes of course many medical staff would be included.
> 
> 
> 
> How would shutting down almost all government services not hurt the government?


 
It would hurt the government far less than the people who rely on those services to survive.


----------



## pk (Mar 27, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> Who said they were acab.  They were targetting banks mainly so abab would be more accurate


 
Attacking the monuments is cunts work.

Fuck the banks, and fuck Fortnums, but leave the memorials alone.

Oh and I've never "firebombed" anything and never claimed to, clueless cunt.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

spring-peeper said:


> Not a clue.  That is why I asked.


 
Well they have the right to strike. However what invariably happens is they if they vote to strike they ensure emergency cover is provided. This once happened back in 1988 when there was a nurses strike. They voted to strike and in one hospital that voted to strike then ensured they'd provide emergency cover. When they found out what staffing level that was they discovered it was more than they had been operating with on a normal day-to-day basis...... The hospital was already operating below that level because of cuts.....


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 27, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> why am I imagining Andrew Hertford shaking his haloed head at the tv while drinking a can of Directors Bitter?



I was sipping tea and grinning most of the time Dot. Unfortunately I'm now imagining you picking black bogies out of your nose.


----------



## friedaweed (Mar 27, 2011)

Fuckin ace day. Ace weekend in fact. Even got myself to offline and met some of you lovely Urbs. 
Now for the nice comfty seat on the train back up to the grim north.
Here's to the next one.

ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## HST (Mar 27, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> still picking out minging black london bogies out of my nose. I forgot that london air is so soupy


 
Pollution in London has been very bad recently - it ain't fog it's smog.


----------



## Threshers_Flail (Mar 27, 2011)

Anyone know how many people were there?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It would hurt the government far less than the people who rely on those services to survive.


 
No it wouldn't.

A 24 hour public sector strike would not massively hurt service users - rubbish would not pile up on the streets, a&e wards would remain open, kids would not see their education suffer unduly, and pension & benefit payments, tax credits and so forth would still get paid.

You're clueless. Ask the people in Portugal what has hurt them - the 24 hour general strike or the EU and Portuguese governments hammering the working class, the poor and the vulnerable.


----------



## pk (Mar 27, 2011)

As long as nobody got fucked over by the violent minority who always fuck it up - the coppers - then it counts as a win.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> No it wouldn't.
> 
> A 24 hour public sector strike would not massively hurt service users - rubbish would not pile up on the streets, a&e wards would remain open, kids would not see their education suffer unduly, and pension & benefit payments, tax credits and so forth would still get paid.
> 
> You're clueless. Ask the people in Portugal what has hurt them - the 24 hour general strike or the EU and Portuguese governments hammering the working class, the poor and the vulnerable.


 
Perhaps if you had disabled parents who rely on such services on a daily basis you wouldn't be so quick to judge others opinions as clueless.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2011)

Threshers_Flail said:


> Anyone know how many people were there?


 
official estimates are in the 250,000 range. I was unable to make a count but that seems low to me- place was fucking heaving. Unison members everywhere. I think from the unions theres must have been the largest turnout


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> official estimates are in the 250,000 range. I was unable to make a count but that seems low to me- place was fucking heaving. Unison members everywhere. I think from the unions theres must have been the largest turnout


 
Sky were estimating 400,000 plus yesterday....


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

pk said:


> Attacking the monuments is cunts work.
> 
> Fuck the banks, and fuck Fortnums, but leave the memorials alone.
> 
> Oh and I've never "firebombed" anything and never claimed to, clueless cunt.



Oh noes, not the lumps of granite. The inhumanity of it!

And yes, you have.


----------



## killer b (Mar 27, 2011)

tuc has it at 250000, everyone else has it at 400,000 - 500,000


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Perhaps if you had disabled parents who rely on such services on a daily basis you wouldn't be so quick to judge others opinions as clueless.


 
Which services? Name them.

Los of disabled people out yesterday and in support of co-ordinated action and a general strike btw.

Oh, and I do.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Which services? Name them.
> 
> Los of disabled people out yesterday and in support of co-ordinated action and a general strike btw.
> 
> Oh, and I do.


 
There are many degrees of disabled and vulnerable people. You shouldn't need it spelling out to you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2011)

Christ the entire cast of Pilgrims Progress are out. Canuck (Christian) Shevek (Pliable, blates) and now Mr Worldly-Wise


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> There are many degrees of disabled and vulnerable people. You shouldn't need it spelling out to you.


 
But I do. Spell it out to me. What awful effects will a 24 hour public sector strike have on your parent(s)?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Actually, I'd rather not. It's a lot personal.

I think it's enough to say that while the majority of people would be largely unaffected by that kind of general strike, there are a large number of people reliant on medical, care or support services just to get through a 24hour day.

While measures can be made to compensate... just that lack of continuity of care can cost lives.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Actually, I'd rather not. It's a lot personal.
> 
> I think it's enough to say that while the majority of people would be largely unaffected by that kind of general strike, there are a large number of people reliant on medical, care or support services just to get through a 24hour day.
> 
> While measures can be made to compensate... just that lack of continuity of care can cost lives.



In strikes where nurses and doctors vote to strike they invariably still provide emergency level cover. As such there are few if any disabled people left to their own devices as a result of the strike. Which is not the case as regards those who will be affected by the cuts.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Actually, I'd rather not. It's a lot personal.


 
Well why bring it up in the first place then? It was a reasonable question to ask and yet you come out with this....


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> In strikes where nurses and doctors vote to strike they invariably still provide emergency level cover. As such there are few if any disabled people left to their own devices as a result of the strike. Which is not the case as regards those who will be affected by the cuts.


 
Emergency level cover costs lives. In a myriad of ways that would be to painful and gory to go into. Of this I have personal experience.

You pointed out yourself how some hospitals are already operating at emergency levels.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Well why bring it up in the first place then? It was a reasonable question to ask and yet you come out with this....


 
I didn't say it wasn't a reasonable question. It's just a little too personal just now.

Nevertheless, without needing to go into specifics we can still discuss this subject.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Emergency level cover costs lives. In a myriad of ways that would be to painful and gory to go into. Of this I have personal experience.


 
The cuts will cost lives. What else do you suggest people do, striking, ie withdrawal of labour, is the last weapon people have.... So, what do you suggest they do??


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I didn't say it wasn't a reasonable question. It's just a little too personal just now.
> 
> Nevertheless, without needing to go into specifics we can still discuss this subject.


 
Well why bring up your parents as a direct reply if it's too personal?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Actually, I'd rather not. It's a lot personal.


 
So why bring it into the debate then? You have either used your disabled parent(s) to score internet points or you have just lied. Either way it is dishonest.

How about you instead give me some hypothetical examples of the possible effects on disabled people?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> The cuts will cost lives. What else do you suggest people do, striking, ie withdrawal of labour, is the last weapon people have.... So, what do you suggest they do??


 
I suggest we show some solidarity and march/strike on their behalf. Longer and harder, targeted specifically at areas this particular government treasures... public schools, private institutions and financial organisations.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I suggest we show some solidarity and march/strike on their behalf. Longer and harder, targeted specifically at areas this particular government treasures... public schools, private institutions and financial organisations.


 
On their behalf? Take away their right to strike you mean? They should have less rights than me and others because they happen to work in healthcare?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Well why bring up your parents as a direct reply if it's too personal?


 
To show how easy it is to forget the effect of even small changes on the most vulnerable in society.

But, yeah, I probably should've stayed clear of mentioning parents specifically.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> To show how easy it is to forget the effect of even small changes on the most vulnerable in society.
> 
> But, yeah, I probably should've stayed clear of mentioning parents specifically.


 
I don't think anyone forgets that to be honest... The only people I know who hand wring about it are the likes of those who will be doing the cutting that will have a much bigger effect on those you refer to thatn those who think the only the weapon most useful in this scenario is a strike....


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> I don't think anyone forgets that to be honest... The only people I know who hand wring about it are the likes of those who will be doing the cutting that will have a much bigger effect on those you refer to thatn those who think the only the weapon most useful in this scenario is a strike....


 
You're fortunate in who you know, then.

The cuts will be devastating, and many people will suffer. That's why we need to fight them.

But I don't agree that a general strike is the next best step.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> You're fortunate in who you know, then.
> 
> The cuts will be devastating, and many people will suffer. That's why we need to fight them.
> 
> But I don't agree that a general strike is the next best step.



Eh? Why am I fortunate? I choose not to hang around or associate with people who don't give a fuck about those most vulnerable, that's all. But given the fact that ew've had the pleas, meetings, demos, consultations what else is left? If nothing else moves these people what else is there?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> On their behalf? Take away their right to strike you mean? They should have less rights than me and others because they happen to work in healthcare?


 
I think we should be very careful not to mix up someone's 'rights'. With what is 'right'.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2011)

hah, they just played the internationale on the radio


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I think we should be very careful not to mix up someone's 'rights'. With what is 'right'.


 
That's bollocks, people have the right to strike, it is both a 'right' and right.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Eh? Why am I fortunate? I choose not to hang around or associate with people who don't give a fuck about those most vulnerable, that's all. But given the fact that ew've had the pleas, meetings, demos, consultations what else is left? If nothing else moves these people what else is there?


 
Half a million people on the streets is just a start. When there's a million on the street in every city across the land and that still doesn't work then maybe we can think about sacrificing the short term vulnerable for the long term.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> That's bollocks, people have the right to strike, it is both a 'right' and right.


 
I think the situation is much more complex than that.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I think the situation is much more complex than that.


 
Of course it's more complex, more complex than your simplistic no right to strike schtick too.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Half a million people on the streets is just a start. When there's a million on the street in every city across the land and that still doesn't work then maybe we can think about sacrificing the short term vulnerable for the long term.


 
And how often and for how long should that continue then? By the time we've yhad a few the cuts will already be having their impact.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Half a million people on the streets is just a start. When there's a million on the street in every city across the land and that still doesn't work then maybe we can think about sacrificing the short term vulnerable for the long term.


 
A million in every city? Get a grip.

Every worker has a right to withdraw their labour when faced with an injustice, and your liberal hand-wringing isn't in defence of disabled people. You are using disabled people to justify inaction in the face of a brutal attack on... disabled people.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> And how often and for how long should that continue then? By the time we've yhad a few the cuts will already be having their impact.


 
And you think a general strike will be more effective? How so?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> A million in every city? Get a grip.
> 
> Every worker has a right to withdraw their labour when faced with an injustice, and your liberal hand-wringing isn't in defence of disabled people. You are using disabled people to justify inaction in the face of a brutal attack on... disabled people.


 
I'm not using anything. I mentioned disabled people as an example of vulnerable people.

I wish I hadn't since you seem to be intent on glorying in tales of other peoples misfortunes.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 27, 2011)

Christ.  My facebook is full of 'opinions' from people who weren't there.

Doesn't take much to swing things round when you talk about tax evasion though, which is encouraging.


----------



## 1%er (Mar 27, 2011)

CNN's take on this last night on TV was, 500,000 people in London protesting against austerity measures, there website seems to give different figures. 

They also reported that on Libyan TV the London demo was shown and it was reported that the demo was the British people demonstrating against the use of force in Libya and that Libya is calling for the UN to have a no-fly zone in the UK to protect the people from the forces of the state.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> And you think a general strike will be more effective? How so?


 
Where is your evidence that a litany of demos will change their minds. A cynic might say that yesterday was the TUC having a radical 5 minutes. Buw even if we have more demos what will it actually bring?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I'm not using anything.



Oh.



> When there's a million on the street in every city across the land and that still doesn't work then maybe we can think about sacrificing the short term vulnerable for the long term.


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 27, 2011)

1%er said:


> They also reported that on Libyan TV the London demo was shown and it was reported that the demo was the British people demonstrating against the use of force in Libya and that Libya is calling for the UN to have a no-fly zone in the UK to protect the people from the forces of the state.





Are you serious?

*goes off to find a link*


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Of course it's more complex, more complex than your simplistic no right to strike schtick too.


 
It's only simplistic because you basically made it up. I didn't say anything about taking anyone's rights away.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It's only simplistic because you basically made it up. I didn't say anything about taking anyone's rights away.


 
Oh.



> When there's a million on the street in every city across the land and that still doesn't work then maybe we can think about sacrificing the short term vulnerable for the long term.


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

spring-peeper said:


> Are you serious?



Yep, they are better at this stuff than Saeed al-Sahaf, the former Iraqi press secretary, otherwise known as Comical Ali.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Where is your evidence that a litany of demos will change their minds. A cynic might say that yesterday was the TUC having a radical 5 minutes. Buw even if we have more demos what will it actually bring?


 
That's the thing. I don't know that anything will change their minds. But I do believe a general strike will only be effective if the majority of the country is behind it. And the only way the government will know that the majority of the country are behind it is when truly large numbers of people are motivated to show they are behind it.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It's only simplistic because you basically made it up. I didn't say anything about taking anyone's rights away.


 
But you don't think it is right for people who care for, work with disabled people are able to strike? And that you don't want them to strike. What else are you doing but wanting to deny them the right to strike? You may not want to have it legally enforced but you have certainly made it plain you don't think it is right for them to do so. However you look at it you want to deny them the right to strike.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

1%er said:


> They also reported that on Libyan TV the London demo was shown and it was reported that the demo was the British people demonstrating against the use of force in Libya and that Libya is calling for the UN to have a no-fly zone in the UK to protect the people from the forces of the state.



There was a very small 'Hands off Libya' (green flags a-plenty) on the pavement by Westminster Bridge yesterday.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> That's the thing. I don't know that anything will change their minds. But I do believe a general strike will only be effective if the majority of the country is behind it. And the only way the government will know that the majority of the country are behind it is when truly large numbers of people are motivated to show they are behind it.


 
Well it doesn't need the majority of the country to be behind it because if there is a general strike, ie a full withdrawal of labour by those in work, those participating will be far more powerful than the angry opinions of those opposing it in the press.


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> And you think a general strike will be more effective? How so?


 
A 24-hour one at that, I would be interested in hearing how this would hurt the government.

I suspect they would not only ignore it, but also be pleased at saving the wage bill for the day.


----------



## 1%er (Mar 27, 2011)

spring-peeper said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> *goes off to find a link*


One picture I saw showed a guy with a green placard saying "hands of Libya"


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

PT, I can't really talk to you about this. Your style is offensive, unreasonable and grating. And this subject is probably a little too close to home for me to be dispassionate about.

So in that I would like to thank you for showing me my limits. Now could you please shut the fuck up about it and engage me on some other aspect of this discussion.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> But you don't think it is right for people who care for, work with disabled people are able to strike? And that you don't want them to strike. What else are you doing but wanting to deny them the right to strike? You may not want to have it legally enforced but you have certainly made it plain you don't think it is right for them to do so. However you look at it you want to deny them the right to strike.


 
I think a large, co-ordinated group of people can organise themselves so that their actions can have the most impact without needing all aspects of that group to do the same thing at the same time.

But you want to make it about me denying people rights.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I think a large, co-ordinated group of people can organise themselves so that their actions can have the most impact without needing all aspects of that group to do the same thing at the same time.
> 
> But you want to make it about me denying people rights.


 
No, you made it about that be saying it wasn't right they did.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 27, 2011)

I spotted my frist iPad being used to take photos....  I would hate to see one of them at a concert... they fucking huge...


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Well it doesn't need the majority of the country to be behind it because if there is a general strike, ie a full withdrawal of labour by those in work, those participating will be far more powerful than the angry opinions of those opposing it in the press.


 
Without popular backing it would be a vote winner for the ConDems.


----------



## Callie (Mar 27, 2011)

Re: healthcare workers and strike action - and not just healthcare workers, other emergency services and all the related roles and people.

I think many people in those professions feel highly conflicted about taking strike action. Also plenty of other people do actually think that they shouldn't have the right to strike.

I fear for the NHS, we are losing it from under our noses and we are losing the ability to compete and offer the health service the public think they want. And we have virtually no control over it.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 27, 2011)

TUC now saying it was 500 000 people who turned up.  and a bunch of right wing thugs appearing on the BBC...


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> No, you made it about that be saying it wasn't right they did.


 
What I said was show some solidarity and march on their behalf.

What I meant as a sign of a community pulling together to look after each other and fight together you turned into me wanting to take away someone's rights.

It could be seen like that, but you'd have to deliberately want to see it like that.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Without popular backing it would be a vote winner for the ConDems.


 
Would those not tkaing part show it has popular backing? Who decides if it's popular? The current government has below minus approval ratings... What popularity do they have?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> Who said they were acab.  They were targetting banks mainly so abab would be more accurate


 
ABAC or ABAW would be better.


----------



## Random (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> What I meant as a sign of a community pulling together to look after each other and fight together you turned into me wanting got take away someone's rights.


 No, you started off by saying that a day of strike action hurts vulnrable people. As has already been pointed out, years of under-funded services hurt far more. Don't start finger wagging if you don't want to be challenged on it.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> What I said was show some solidarity and march on their behalf.
> 
> What I meant as a sign of a community pulling together to look after each other and fight together you turned into me wanting got take away someone's rights.
> 
> It could be seen like that, but you'd have to deliberately want to see it like that.



And you also said it wasn't right they went on strike.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 27, 2011)

dp


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> why am I imagining Andrew Hertford shaking his haloed head at the tv while drinking a can of Directors Bitter?


 
Because you caught a whiff of the stench of sanctimony and beer-farts?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Would those not tkaing part show it has popular backing? Who decides if it's popular? The current government has below minus approval ratings... What popularity do they have?


 
Those are very good questions, and not easily answered. Effective handling of such a strike would be a major coup for a struggling government.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Random said:


> No, you started off by saying that a day of strike action hurts vulnrable people. As has already been pointed out, years of under-funded services hurt far more. Don't start finger wagging if you don't want to be challenged on it.


 
Actually I said a day of strike action would hurt some vulnerable people MORE than it would hurt the government.

If you're going to get involved, come correct.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Perhaps if you had disabled parents who rely on such services on a daily basis you wouldn't be so quick to judge others opinions as clueless.


 

To be fair, I'm a disabled 40-something who relies on them, and I'm fairly well aware that the way most services are set up, femergency medical services won't be affected. People like me, as well as those more severely disabled,   may experience a bit of *personal discomfort*, but we're unlikely to experience medical problems, and if we do, we know that the emergency and medical services will still be operating an "emergencies only" service.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> There are many degrees of disabled and vulnerable people. You shouldn't need it spelling out to you.


 
Thing is, those people who have the most severe disabilities are/will be prioritised and covered during any strike. That's what has happened previously when a strike has affected services, and it's what will happen this time/any other time. None of this (striking) is usually done in a half-arsed manner, and the unions get my respect for making sure there's adequate cover, even though assuring such cover diminishes the leverage they have on the bosses.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be fair, I'm a disabled 40-something who relies on them, and I'm fairly well aware that the way most services are set up, femergency medical services won't be affected. People like me, as well as those more severely disabled,   may experience a bit of *personal discomfort*, but we're unlikely to experience medical problems, and if we do, we know that the emergency and medical services will still be operating an "emergencies only" service.


 
It's that 'emergencies only' service that worries me. The main problems with medical care aren't in the ICU's, HDU's or operating theatres... it's on the wards and in the outpatients. Where inappropriate standards of care already put thousands at risk. It's in the daily services that prevent people from falling over in the shower or on the toilet or help them to eat.

These are at biggest risk from the cuts, but they are so precarious that we have to be very careful how it is dealt with.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> But I do. Spell it out to me. What awful effects will a 24 hour public sector strike have on your parent(s)?


 
I suspect that kizmet is on about stuff like catheterisation, medication, anti-bedsore measures, supervision of feeding and the like.


----------



## xes (Mar 27, 2011)

hey man, bed sores need a dressing!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> In strikes where nurses and doctors vote to strike they invariably still provide emergency level cover.



As do those care and residential homes with unionised staff. 



> As such there are few if any disabled people left to their own devices as a result of the strike.



This is my own experience. 



> Which is not the case as regards those who will be affected by the cuts.


 
Which does, though, include many people with disabilities.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Emergency level cover costs lives. In a myriad of ways that would be to painful and gory to go into. Of this I have personal experience.
> 
> You pointed out yourself how some hospitals are already operating at emergency levels.


 
Emergency level cover generally means one thing above all else - a toughening of standard triage procedures.

As for costing lives, of course it does, but I haven't seen any research, in 20-odd years of occasionally looking, that proves that more people die during such situations than die in the normal run of things. The situation generally (but not always, obviously) turns out to be that the deceased would have died whether normal service was in place or not.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect that kizmet is on about stuff like catheterisation, medication, anti-bedsore measures, supervision of feeding and the like.


 
And infection control.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> So in that I would like to thank you for showing me my limits. Now could you please shut the fuck up about it and engage me on some other aspect of this discussion.



Yet you use it again.



Kizmet said:


> And this subject is probably a little too close to home for me to be dispassionate about.



You dishonest little shit.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect that kizmet is on about stuff like catheterisation, medication, anti-bedsore measures, supervision of feeding and the like.


 
I suspect that Kizmet made a statement without having a specific idea in mind of what he meant, as he saw it as a useful dig to make - and then got pulled up on it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> You are using disabled people to justify inaction in the face of a brutal attack on... disabled people.



Of course, if you ask people with disabilities their opinion, a lot will tell you "fuck inaction, let's do what we can to get shake the cunts up". Now, for some of us, that may mean less marching and more irritating politicians with letters, phonecalls and e-mails, but cause the twats in parliament and Whitehall enough problems, and they may get the message - don't fuck with us.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It's that 'emergencies only' service that worries me. The main problems with medical care aren't in the ICU's, HDU's or operating theatres... it's on the wards and in the outpatients. Where inappropriate standards of care already put thousands at risk.


You're not wrong with that, but a 24 hour general strike will make fuck all difference to the risk.


----------



## invisibleplanet (Mar 27, 2011)

Who'd have thought that it was more important to concentrate on cycling the same bit of aerial footage of the Metropolitan Police Aerial Kettle Display Team rather than broadcasting clips of the spokespeople and the testimonies of those who attended. I was very disappointed with the coverage. I expect more from my license fee. Srsly.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

invisibleplanet said:


> I was very disappointed with the coverage. I expect more from my license fee. Srsly.


 
Too deadpan for words.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It's that 'emergencies only' service that worries me. The main problems with medical care aren't in the ICU's, HDU's or operating theatres... it's on the wards and in the outpatients. Where inappropriate standards of care already put thousands at risk. It's in the daily services that prevent people from falling over in the shower or on the toilet or help them to eat.
> 
> These are at biggest risk from the cuts, but they are so precarious that we have to be very careful how it is dealt with.



And they are. I don't know if you've ever been on the receiving end of services during an industrial dispute, but my own experience is that those staff at work are as conscientious as at any other time, and that any problems are generally a function of ongoing infrastructural and staffing issues, not of transitory manning levels.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> And infection control.


 
Infection control in a hospital environment is a busted flush, and has been since CCT of hospital cleaning services. As the DoH and the individual trusts have found out over the last 20 years, the only way to control infection is to spend above the lowest tender on cleaning.

While CCT/the "internal market"/part-privatisation may be financially efficient, it's extremely inefficient in terms of causing higher spend down the line to remedy the faults it causes.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Corax said:


> You're not wrong with that, but a 24 hour general strike will make fuck all difference to the risk.


 
How do you work that out?


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 27, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> why am I imagining Andrew Hertford shaking his haloed head at the tv while drinking a can of Directors Bitter?


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I think we should be very careful not to mix up someone's 'rights'. With what is 'right'.


utter crap. Either the right to organise collectively, and take industrial action in defence of your fundamental interests is non-negotiable...or you roll over


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Infection control in a hospital environment is a busted flush, and has been since CCT of hospital cleaning services. As the DoH and the individual trusts have found out over the last 20 years, the only way to control infection is to spend above the lowest tender on cleaning.
> 
> While CCT/the "internal market"/part-privatisation may be financially efficient, it's extremely inefficient in terms of causing higher spend down the line to remedy the faults it causes.


 
Absolutely. And in this environment how can it be seen to be a good idea to suggest a 'down tools'?

If the suggestion is that this will somehow improve for that 24 hour period then perhaps those tools should be permanently downed.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> How do you work that out?


 
I would have thought it self-evident.  Why do you think that a 24 hour general strike would have any effect on the risk on wards or in OPD?  Wards are already staffed at the minimum and nothing will change there, and waiting one day more for an OPD appt will make fuck all difference (clinically) to anyone.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> utter crap. Either the right to organise collectively, and take industrial action in defence of your fundamental interests is non-negotiable...or you roll over


 
That's true, but it has little relevance to what I said.


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 27, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> There was a very small 'Hands off Libya' (green flags a-plenty) on the pavement by Westminster Bridge yesterday.


The FRFI! mob were also zeroing in on that


----------



## Streathamite (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> That's true, but it has little relevance to what I said.


It has compelete relevance to the implication immanent within it


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Infection control in a hospital environment is a busted flush, and has been since CCT of hospital cleaning services. As the DoH and the individual trusts have found out over the last 20 years, the only way to control infection is to spend above the lowest tender on cleaning.


 
Bit of a tangent, but I don't think cleaning is the biggest factor in infection control.  Our hospital has a shit cleaning company.  Our infection rates are amongst the best in the country.  The things that made a difference, it seems, were bare below the elbows and hand sanitisation by clinicians.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Corax said:


> I would have thought it self-evident.  Why do you think that a 24 hour general strike would have any effect on the risk on wards or in OPD?  Wards are already staffed at the minimum and nothing will change there, and waiting one day more for an OPD appt will make fuck all difference (clinically) to anyone.


 
It's not self evident. I think the effects could be devastating for people already at risk from inappropriate levels of supervision and care. Infection control standards slipping below already shoddy standards will result in many more deaths... not always easily traceable back to an initial source. Falls, breakages, burns on people trying to cope without careworkers who are late, stretched and ill-prepared. Those are just some examples.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Corax said:


> Bit of a tangent, but I don't think cleaning is the biggest factor in infection control.  Our hospital has a shit cleaning company.  Our infection rates are amongst the best in the country.  The things that made a difference, it seems, were bare below the elbows and hand sanitisation by clinicians.


 
Contact care. At the hospital my mum was at their use of agency staff led to higher rates of infection... especially during the night.


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

Corax said:


> I would have thought it self-evident.  Why do you think that a 24 hour general strike would have any effect on the risk on wards or in OPD?  Wards are already staffed at the minimum and nothing will change there, and waiting one day more for an OPD appt will make fuck all difference (clinically) to anyone.


 
And how would a 24 hour general strike by public sector workers hurt the government?

I asked this earlier, because I doubt it would, but no one seems to want to explain.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> It has compelete relevance to the implication immanent within it


 
What?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> And how would a 24 hour general strike by public sector workers hurt the government?
> 
> I asked this earlier, because I doubt it would, but no one seems to want to explain.


 
Or because people thought it too obvious to be worth answering.

How does a strike affect the employer. I mean, really.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I suspect that Kizmet made a statement without having a specific idea in mind of what he meant, as he saw it as a useful dig to make - and then got pulled up on it.


 
You asked me for personal details. I didn't expect that when I originally posted. It ain't normal to ask someone aggressively to prove their parents are disabled.

Perhaps had you asked in a more adult way I may have explained my personal circumstances more... it's no big secret. But with your attitude I wouldn't give you a hair out of my arse.

Please feel free to crow about it as if it was some kind if victory. Well done.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It's not self evident. I think the effects could be devastating for people already at risk from inappropriate levels of supervision and care. Infection control standards slipping below already shoddy standards will result in many more deaths... not always easily traceable back to an initial source. Falls, breakages, burns on people trying to cope without careworkers who are late, stretched and ill-prepared. Those are just some examples.


Okay, let's break it down into two simple statements then:
Ward staffing levels are at a minimum.
Nothing would change on wards in the case of a general strike.



claphamboy said:


> And how would a 24 hour general strike by public sector workers hurt the government?
> 
> I asked this earlier, because I doubt it would, but no one seems to want to explain.


Profile.  International news coverage.  A very clear expression of public dissatisfaction and rebellion.  The only thing governments are afraid of (barring neckshots) is mass unpopularity, because that threatens their power and income.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Corax said:


> Okay, let's break it down into two simple statements then:
> Ward staffing levels are at a minimum.
> Nothing would change on wards in the case of a general strike.


 
You talk about numbers like a manager. I am worried about the already poor standards of care. How will these remain unaffected?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> You asked me for personal details. I didn't expect that when I originally posted. It ain't normal to ask someone aggressively to prove their parents are disabled.
> 
> Perhaps had you asked in a more adult way I may have explained my personal circumstances more... it's no big secret. But with your attitude I wouldn't give you a hair out of my arse.
> 
> Please feel free to crow about it as if it was some kind if victory. Well done.


 
If you don't wish to discuss something personal, then don't cite it as justification for an argument. Or people will conclude that you are using the age-old internet tactic of 'I am an authority on this I just can't tell you why'.

And I couldn't give a fuck what you would or would not give me because I think you are a right-wing cunt.


----------



## girasol (Mar 27, 2011)

and that is why nothing ever happens in this country...  bickering!  GENERAL STRIKE!  Stand United.

el pueblo unido jamas sera vencido.


----------



## Combustible (Mar 27, 2011)

Does anyone have any further details on the tax avoidance of Fortnum and Mason's owners (beyond that found here.


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## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> You talk about numbers like a manager. I am worried about the already poor standards of care. How will these remain unaffected?


If there is a general strike then the people who work in the NHS will make sure that wards are staffed at the minimum level to ensure patients' safety.

Because of the way the NHS has been repeatedly fucked about with wards are currently staffed at a minimum level to ensure patients' safety.

*Nothing will change.*

Are you deliberately being difficult, or are you just fucking thick?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> If you don't wish to discuss something personal, then don't cite it as justification for an argument. Or people will conclude that you are using the age-old internet tactic of 'I am an authority on this I just can't tell you why'.



Like iI said, I didn't expect a personal question... there was no need for one. I had forgotten that you are the type of small-minded penis that would use someone's personal information against them. So I'm hesitant. Not because it's personal, more because you are a cunt and don't deserve adult conversation.



> And I couldn't give a fuck what you would or would not give me because I think you are a right-wing cunt.


 
Yeah, but you are deeply stupid.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Corax said:


> If there is a general strike then the people who work in the NHS will make sure that wards are staffed at the minimum level to ensure patients' safety.
> 
> Because of the way the NHS has been repeatedly fucked about with wards are currently staffed at a minimum level to ensure patients' safety.
> 
> ...


 
So there will be a strike where nothing changes. And you are accusing me of being difficult?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Like iI said, I didn't expect a personal question


 
So don't bring it up then. It's quite simple.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 27, 2011)

Combustible said:


> Does anyone have any further details on the tax avoidance of Fortnum and Mason's owners (beyond that found here.


 
no idea.

but then i have no idea what this means either



> The overall tax charge for the year benefited from a £27m (2009 – £25m) credit for tax relief on the amortisation of non-operating intangible assets and goodwill arising from acquisitions. No tax arose on the profit on the sale of businesses or on the loss on disposal of non-current assets.



http://www.abfreports.com/our-business/financial-review.htm


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Or, you could consider not being a wanker all your life....


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Or, you could consider not being a wanker all your life....


 
Very droll lol.

God you are shit.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> So there will be a strike where nothing changes. And you are accusing me of being difficult?


 


Corax said:


> Profile.  International news coverage.  A very clear expression of public dissatisfaction and rebellion.  The only thing governments are afraid of (barring neckshots) is mass unpopularity, because that threatens their power and income.



Are you reading the thread, or just having a tantrum?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

And so we come full circle.... if those are the things you are trying to achieve a strike is not necessarily the best way to achieve it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

It is though. And, of course, strikes also have an economic impact that demonstrations cannot.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

There are 2 problems... a) a 24 hour general strike is unlikely b) It wouldn't have the desired effect without massive public backing.

We might assume it's there, but that's no guarantee. Large amounts of people are pissed off at the government, we don't want them to be distracted by being pissed off with each other.


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Or because people thought it too obvious to be worth answering.
> 
> How does a strike affect the employer. I mean, really.



Well, with a private company it hurts them in their pockets, AKA profits, but that doesn't apply to the government.

In fact the opposite - they get to save paying wages for the day, the public sector workers' are out of pocket by a day’s wages on top of being financially fucked left, right & centre anyway. 

Most other people will probably not notice much and just shrug it off, unless they need public transport to get to work, in which case they’ll work from home, take a day off or try to struggle in anyway. A few may suffer.

A 24-hour public sector strike will achieve absolutely fuck all. 



Corax said:


> Profile.  International news coverage.  A very clear expression of public dissatisfaction and rebellion.  The only thing governments are afraid of (barring neckshots) is mass unpopularity, because that threatens their power and income.



Well, it may get some international news coverage, that would most likely strengthen the government's resolve for fear of being seen as weak to the 'markets'.

I doubt this government is in fear of mass unpopularity, its years until the next election and they are taking a gamble that they will turn things around in time for that.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

A 24 hour public sector strike would have the backing of the overwhelming majority of public sector workers. It doesn't need the backing of anybody else but the workers taking strike action (although, of course, everybody knows at least one public sector worker), and such a strike would provide the opportunity to put the alternatives to the austerity programme firmly on the agenda, with a view to a 24 hour general strike.

Co-ordinated public sector strikes are not 'unlikely' given the whole of the pubic sector is being attacked (pensions would be a good bet); and, as with all these things, a mass campaign calling for co-ordinated action across all public sector unions would vastly increase the likelihood.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Well, with a private company it hurts them in their pockets, AKA profits, but that doesn't apply to the government.



Yes it does.



claphamboy said:


> In fact the opposite - they get to save paying wages for the day, the public sector workers' are out of pocket by a day’s wages on top of being financially fucked left, right & centre anyway.



And the govt has to pay out fuck loads to prepare for the strike; loses all its tax revenue for the day; and yet still has to, at some point, undertake all the work they would have undertaken on the strike day.



claphamboy said:


> Most other people will probably not notice much and just shrug it off, unless they need public transport to get to work, in which case they’ll work from home, take a day off or try to struggle in anyway. A few may suffer.



Lol. Public transport isn't public sector.



claphamboy said:


> A 24-hour public sector strike will achieve absolutely fuck all.


 
It would though. You seem to be saying that strikes don't work in sectors that aren't directly generating a profit. But you are wrong.


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> .....with a view to a 24 hour general strike.


 
LOL, loads of massive 'if's' & 'but's', but at the end of the day it'll never happen.

Feel free to dream on.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Okay I will


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol. Public transport isn't public sector.



Did I say it was? Although, by proxy, much of it could be considered to be. 

I just assumed you were including public transport in your plan to bring the government to its knees, but if you’re not – this idea will have even less impact.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 27, 2011)

.


----------



## magneze (Mar 27, 2011)

A quick point that is relevant but often totally ignored. 43% of union members are from the private sector. http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file25737.pdf

The media often bang on about how the march was all about the public sector. Bollocks was it. It was and will continue to be about everyone.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> And the govt has to pay out fuck loads to prepare for the strike; loses all its tax revenue for the day; and yet still has to, at some point, undertake all the work they would have undertaken on the strike day.



And, should they manage it, would score a massive publicity boost. Might even be enough to see them re-elected.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 27, 2011)

magneze said:


> The media often bang on about how the march was all about the public sector. Bollocks was it. It was and will continue to be about everyone.


 
Innit.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Did I say it was?



Yes, you did. 



> Most other people will probably not notice much and just shrug it off, unless they need public transport to get to work, in which case they’ll work from home, take a day off or try to struggle in anyway. A few may suffer.





claphamboy said:


> Although, by proxy, much of it could be considered to be.



No it couldn't.



claphamboy said:


> I just assumed you were including public transport in your plan to bring the government to its knees, but if you’re not – this idea will have even less impact.


 
How would private sector industries be included in a public sector strike?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> And, should they manage it, would score a massive publicity boost. Might even be enough to see them re-elected.


 
lol


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

I doubt you'll find it funny.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

I doubt it would happen.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

I doubted they would get in in the first place. I didn't think we could be that stupid. I was wrong.

A public sector strike without general backing is like an open goal.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Mar 27, 2011)

A public sector strike that would hurt the government financially would be the Inland Revenue. In any case the idea of public sector strikes is to cause disruption and thus inconvenience the government as employer. The cuts are affecting jobs so a strike is a legitimate industrial dispute. As Mark Serwotka pointed out yesterday in his speech, the effects of public sector strikes are much greater if they all happen at the same time. The issue of pension cuts across the entire public sector is a unifying factor. 

Co-ordinated demands for a reversal of these cuts could be made, and when the government response is negative, strike ballots across the sector would coincide. This would be less than a General Strike but how one of those could be created is beyond me. A real General Strike would probably generate opposition from Lib Dem supporters who would volunteer to drive buses and do the various scab like activities that happened in the last General Strike. The level of political awareness in this country is rather low.


----------



## magneze (Mar 27, 2011)

That's undoubtedly true - how do we raise the level of political awareness? The question occurred to me as I walked through the shoppers of the west end afterwards. Some were totally oblivious as to what was going on. It both annoyed and depressed me. How do we reach them? Do we need to? Or is it just a matter of waiting until the cuts bite them? Argh.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

For the first time in a long time there's genuine unity of opposition now isn't the time for separatist action.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

magneze said:


> That's undoubtedly true - how do we raise the level of political awareness? The question occurred to me as I walked through the shoppers of the west end afterwards. Some were totally oblivious as to what was going on. It both annoyed and depressed me. How do we reach them? Do we need to? Or is it just a matter of waiting until the cuts bite them? Argh.


 
This was part of the point of the marches, wasn't it? You reach them by getting them to join in.


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yes, you did.


 
No, I didn't! 



> No it couldn't.



Yes, it could!



> How would private sector industries be included in a public sector strike?



You seem to fail to understand that public services, where workers used to be employed directly by the 'public sector' and were farmed out to private companies can still be considered in the ‘'public sector'.



> Definitions of Public sector on the Web:
> 
> Industries or services provided *or funded* by the government.
> 
> That part of the economy which is owned *or controlled by the public, usually through government agencies.*



Anyway, numbnuts, I can’t be arsed with your silly games ATM, as my other half will be home in a minute, with a good chance of my nuts getting played with, so I’ll bid you goodnight and leave you to play on your own.


----------



## claphamboy (Mar 27, 2011)

stephj said:


> .


 
BTW - you didn't need to edit that post, I took the  &  onboard & laughed.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> We


 
lol


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

I didn't vote for them. Lord knows how they got in when no-body else seems to have voted for them either.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I doubted they would get in in the first place.



You were being a bit dim then.



Kizmet said:


> A public sector strike without general backing is like an open goal.


 
A public sector strike without general backing wouldn't get past the ballot you knobend.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Hocus Eye. said:


> A public sector strike that would hurt the government financially would be the Inland Revenue. In any case the idea of public sector strikes is to cause disruption and thus inconvenience the government as employer. The cuts are affecting jobs so a strike is a legitimate industrial dispute. As Mark Serwotka pointed out yesterday in his speech, the effects of public sector strikes are much greater if they all happen at the same time. The issue of pension cuts across the entire public sector is a unifying factor.
> 
> Co-ordinated demands for a reversal of these cuts could be made, and when the government response is negative, strike ballots across the sector would coincide. This would be less than a General Strike but how one of those could be created is beyond me. A real General Strike would probably generate opposition from Lib Dem supporters who would volunteer to drive buses and do the various scab like activities that happened in the last General Strike. The level of political awareness in this country is rather low.


 
Good post. I agree the level of political awareness is low - however, awareness/consciousness would increase during a struggle. Horse/cart.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I didn't vote for them. Lord knows how they got in when no-body else seems to have voted for them either.


 
Because two parties who didn't get elected got together and asked the Queen to fix it for them to run the country, and she agreed. I blame the Queen who should have given them a flea in their respective ears and sent them packing.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 27, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Did anyone else see the leaflets from the Money Supply Reform Party? Do they win the 'best political fringe group' award?
> 
> Edit: watching a Swappie try and sell papers to about 20 black bloc was a definite bit of light relief ...  Top marks to him for effort, at least


 
I got some leaflets from them yeah. 


Just had an email from my branch sec. Apparently I helped raise over £200 for the strikers


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> No, I didn't!



You did. It's there. Everybody can read it.



> Yes, it could!



No.



> You seem to fail to understand that public services, where workers used to be employed directly by the 'public sector' and were farmed out to private companies can still be considered in the ‘'public sector'.



Either they are employed by local or central govt or they are not. Get a grip.


----------



## You'reAToryToo (Mar 27, 2011)

Was anyone else at Trafalgar Sqr last night? I've only just woken up having got home around lunch time today. Was awesome when around 50 riot vans and coaches were whizzing over aswell as the storm troopers come up from that road (don't know the name, Big Ben in the distance) whilst everyone was doing the Star Wars theme tune (least I think it's the theme tune, the do do do one?). Sorry about the post however I've just woken up so I'm still getting back to normal terms. Pain is finally setting in after the adrenaline.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> You were being a bit dim then.



As you are being now.



> A public sector strike without general backing wouldn't get past the ballot you knobend.


 
You would have the general public vote on public sector ballots? How does that work?


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

You'reAToryToo said:


> Was anyone else at Trafalgar Sqr last night? I've only just woken up having got home around lunch time today. Was awesome when around 50 riot vans and coaches were whizzing over aswell as the storm troopers come up from that road (don't know the name, Big Ben in the distance) whilst everyone was doing the Star Wars theme tune (least I think it's the theme tune, the do do do one?). Sorry about the post however I've just woken up so I'm still getting back to normal terms. Pain is finally setting in after the adrenaline.


Sounds like you had fun.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> As you are being now.
> 
> 
> 
> You would have the general public vote on public sector ballots? How does that work?


 
I am amazed at your cluelessness.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm only surprised at your childishness.


----------



## Fingers (Mar 27, 2011)

1%er said:


> CNN's take on this last night on TV was, 500,000 people in London protesting against austerity measures, there website seems to give different figures.
> 
> They also reported that on Libyan TV the London demo was shown and it was reported that the demo was the British people demonstrating against the use of force in Libya and that Libya is calling for the UN to have a no-fly zone in the UK to protect the people from the forces of the state.



I went yesterday with another lovely Urb. It was a great day and the 250,000 estimate was a little on the low side ino. We were stuck behind the Gadaffi crew at Trafalgar Square.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 27, 2011)

still a passive agressive clown Kizmet I see


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Absolutely. And in this environment how can it be seen to be a good idea to suggest a 'down tools'?



You still, after everything, appear to believe that a strike means that _x, y_ and _z_ won't get done. That isn't the case. Ancillary staff provide emergency cover just like the doctors and nurses.
Incidentally, if your hospital ward is dirty enough that hard-to-treat infections are taking place, not "cleaning" for 24 hours won't make a perceptible distance, because whatever cleaning techniques are being used are obviously ineffective. 



> If the suggestion is that this will somehow improve for that 24 hour period then perhaps those tools should be permanently downed.



Nobody has suggested that, you strange person.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> So there will be a strike where nothing changes. And you are accusing me of being difficult?


 
It's fairly obvious that he's saying that a strike will not make a difference to staffing levels on wards - that staffing levels would be equally poor, equally minimal whether there were a strike taking place or not, so he's saying "nothing changes" with reference to those staffing levels, and nothing else.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> And so we come full circle.... if those are the things you are trying to achieve a strike is not necessarily the best way to achieve it.


 
Nobody has claimed that it is.

You appear to be conducting parallel conversations on here and in your head, and getting the two mixed up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> There are 2 problems... a) a 24 hour general strike is unlikely b) It wouldn't have the desired effect without massive public backing.
> 
> We might assume it's there, but that's no guarantee. Large amounts of people are pissed off at the government, we don't want them to be distracted by being pissed off with each other.


 
Pardon the question, but who are you to decide what "we" want?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> A 24 hour public sector strike would have the backing of the overwhelming majority of public sector workers. It doesn't need the backing of anybody else but the workers taking strike action (although, of course, everybody knows at least one public sector worker), and such a strike would provide the opportunity to put the alternatives to the austerity programme firmly on the agenda, with a view to a 24 hour general strike.
> 
> Co-ordinated public sector strikes are not 'unlikely' given the whole of the pubic sector is being attacked (pensions would be a good bet); and, as with all these things, a mass campaign calling for co-ordinated action across all public sector unions would vastly increase the likelihood.


 
You should, IMHO, bear in mind that it's not only public sector workers you need to aim to get gee'd up, it's the volunteers, the people down at community level that Cameron sees as fodder for his "Big Society" that you should go for too, because they're whom the govt will try to fall back on in the event of an extended strike.
Obviously, it's easier to reach the union members, like.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Pardon the question, but who are you to decide what "we" want?


 
I think s/he's the voice of the silent majority or something.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

magneze said:


> The media often bang on about how the march was all about the public sector. Bollocks was it. It was and will continue to be about everyone.


 
Hear bloody hear!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> And, should they manage it, would score a massive publicity boost. Might even be enough to see them re-elected.


 
Historically it hasn't worked out that well for them. People tend to resent governments whose politicians have shown insufficient _nous_ to avoid large-scale industrial action.

You're grasping at straws in an attempt to justify your POV.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You should, IMHO, bear in mind that it's not only public sector workers you need to aim to get gee'd up, it's the volunteers, the people down at community level that Cameron sees as fodder for his "Big Society" that you should go for too, because they're whom the govt will try to fall back on in the event of an extended strike.
> Obviously, it's easier to reach the union members, like.


 
Your last point is what it is about really - calling for a general strike now is superficial really, TUC isn't going to go for it - but co-ordinated p/s strikes are already on the cards so a 24 hour gen p/s strike is feasible and can be used to build for a gen strike and to push the mass movement on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I didn't vote for them. Lord knows how they got in when no-body else seems to have voted for them either.


 
Trev voted for them, and I've heard rumours that some wrong'un called Corax did, too.

And you should at least try to bear in mind that nobody voted "them" in, "they" got in because they formed a coalition.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> I got some leaflets from them yeah.
> 
> 
> Just had an email from my branch sec. Apparently I helped raise over £200 for the strikers


 
That's you on MI5's shit-list, then!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> You did. It's there. Everybody can read it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You and ClaphamBoy's back and forth argument is making me feel like I@m at a pantomime!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Corax said:


> I think s/he's the voice of the silent majority or something.


 
Silent my arse, they're the biggest bunch of whining fucks you're ever likely to meet, the cunts!


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's you on MI5's shit-list, then!


 
I probably already am to be fair. I'd be very surprised if they didn't have a file on me.


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Trev voted for them, and I've heard rumours that some wrong'un called Corax did, too.


 
Shutupshutupshutupshutupshutupshutup!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 27, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Your last point is what it is about really - calling for a general strike now is superficial really, TUC isn't going to go for it - but co-ordinated p/s strikes are already on the cards so a 24 hour gen p/s strike is feasible and can be used to build for a gen strike and to push the mass movement on.


 
I think people also tend to forget, when we're discussing the public sector, that a strike, especially one with minimal union-member scabbing, doesn't just involve teachers, doctors and nurses etc, it also directly inconveniences those self-regarding dog-bummers in parliament, when the cabinet's drivers aren't there, when the multitude of office staff and ancillary staff in the ministries, in parliament and in Downing St are absent. IMO a 24 hr public sector strike, or a series of them, can be made to hit home.

But it's got to be one strand among many, so that even if the inconveniences can be circumvented in some way, other pressures can be brought to bear.

I hear that the WRVS and the WI have already told the Whitehall monkeys where to go (approaches have been made to "3rd sector" orgs to chip in with cover, _a la_ "the great strike"), so lets hope more of 'em tell them to stick it!


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 27, 2011)

My dad says he'd vote lib dem again  He still went on the march yesterday though. And I managed to flog his mate a paper - I should have charged him double for it though seeing as this guy kept wondering off to take photos and reappearing 20 mins later as if nothing had happened


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 27, 2011)

> *What really happened in Trafalgar Square*
> 
> _Posted by Laurie Penny - 27 March 2011 16:22_
> 
> Neither mindless nor violent, young protesters were forced into a stand-off with police.


http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/03/trafalgar-square-police-young



> *Baton charged by police: on the frontline with the Black Bloc*
> 
> _Ryan Gallagher, 27 March 2011_
> 
> As a crowd of between 250,000 to 400,000 moved slowly from the Victoria Embankment towards Hyde Park, a large splinter demonstration broke off in another direction. It was a group made up of those usually cast in the media as ‘anarchists’ or the 'Black Bloc' – rule breakers with little interest in establishment approved methods of protest. Carrying red and black flags, they walked through the streets with no predefined destination or plan. Some armed with smoke bombs and paint balls, their main intention seemed to be to outsmart the police at any and every opportunity.


http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...harged-by-police-on-frontline-with-black-bloc


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

Honest open question - do you think this march has done any good at all?

It all seems a bit pessimistic at the moment..


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2011)

Coming out of chokey is quite uplifting!


----------



## RaverDrew (Mar 28, 2011)

http://www.fitwatch.org.uk/2011/03/18/top-ten-nasty-fit-cops/


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> Honest open question - do you think this march has done any good at all?
> 
> It all seems a bit pessimistic at the moment..


 
The TUC march none at all what did you expect, it's state run thing and the Labour Party don't listen to them for years now anyhow. 

The feeder marches well shut down business for the day and brought attention to those who are not paying their taxes despite the Daily Hate Sky Corp spin.

So in all a good thing.


----------



## girasol (Mar 28, 2011)

Sad start to the day   Just reading this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12874631



> Business Secretary Vince Cable said the government will not change its economic strategy as a result of the TUC protest.



But it doesn't surprise me.
Need to vote them off as soon as possible.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

Who is Christopher Phelps?
http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op...7/anticuts-march-black-bloc&cat=commentisfree

Talks about IWW and criticises direct action without mentioning the direct action of the IWW.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 28, 2011)




----------



## magneze (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> Honest open question - do you think this march has done any good at all?
> 
> It all seems a bit pessimistic at the moment..


Too early to tell. Got to think of this as the beginning, not the end though. The government will be "ok, you've had a march, lets see if we can ignore it". Need to keep the pressure on.


----------



## magneze (Mar 28, 2011)

Balbi said:


>


----------



## Balbi (Mar 28, 2011)

The duality of Class War and Smash the State are especially good.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

Balbi said:


>



Genius. Good to see somebody saying it after the wailing and gnashing of teeth across the media this weekend.


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Who is Christopher Phelps?
> http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op...7/anticuts-march-black-bloc&cat=commentisfree
> 
> Talks about IWW and criticises direct action without mentioning the direct action of the IWW.


 
wow! an article so up its own arse makes the mail/telegraph seething resentment seem readable.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Mar 28, 2011)

Great spiel from Schnews  http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/anti-cuts-march-2011.php


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Who is Christopher Phelps?
> http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op...7/anticuts-march-black-bloc&cat=commentisfree
> 
> Talks about IWW and criticises direct action without mentioning the direct action of the IWW.


 
Fucking hell, what a load of tosh.


Full version here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/27/anticuts-march-black-bloc

Phelps appears to be "Associate Professor of American Intellectual and Cultural History" at the Uni of Nottingham.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

More utter arse, from Labour List. Another "o noez! UKUncut/anarkids etc deflecting media attention from proper march" piece. Irony much?

http://www.labourlist.org/uk-uncut-owes-a-lot-of-apologies


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Fucking hell, what a load of tosh.
> 
> 
> Full version here:
> ...


 

He's been trying for a decade to make himself known as the academic voice of the IWW (he's still at it in that article). I wonder if he knew where the IWW phone was on saturday - because it sure as hell wasn't with him.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> He's been trying for a decade to make himself known as the academic voice of the IWW (he's still at it in that article). I wonder if he knew where the IWW phone was on saturday - because it sure as hell wasn't with him.



'ello butchers. How did it go Saturday?


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 28, 2011)

The most frequent question I've been asked by people in bath before and after is "what march?".  The only reason anyone non-union, non-political knows it happened is because of those kids imo.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> 'ello butchers. How did it go Saturday?


 
Good day out all round really, what happens next is key though. Agree with Bone's suggestion that there's a disconnect between some sections that's going to take some serious movement/work to overcome. Haven't really come up with anything more thought through than that for now. (Also good to see TC and Ds, chico etc)


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 28, 2011)

> *On being arrested for occupying Fortnum & Mason*
> 
> _I was arrested and charged with aggravated trespass and I have been banned from the City of Westminster between 27th April and 2nd May. _


http://hellotenzin.posterous.com/on-being-arrested-for-occupying-fortnum-mason


----------



## sim667 (Mar 28, 2011)

Im hoping to get my photos of this sorted out today, ill get the links up when they're done.


----------



## Random (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Fucking hell, what a load of tosh.
> 
> 
> Full version here:
> ...



What a shithead.  Does he know who the real enemy is?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Good day out all round really, what happens next is key though. Agree with Bone's suggestion that there's a disconnect between some sections that's going to take some serious movement/work to overcome. Haven't really come up with anything more thought through than that for now. (Also good to see TC and Ds, chico etc)


 
You Ok...I was beginning to get worried.

Very encouraged by the numbers of people supportive of the F&M action; I was outside and the road was packed up and down and very positive.

The bits and pieces I've heard subsequently have been more good than bad; i.e. they've mostly seen the direct action as part and parcel of the range of protest.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. was going to post this as a PM but your box is full.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You Ok...I was beginning to get worried.
> 
> Very encouraged by the numbers of people supportive of the F&M action; I was outside and the road was packed up and down and very positive.
> 
> ...



Box emptied - apols. Yeah i'm fine ta, apart from aching all over - fucked my phone in the late afternnon though and hadn't realised till much later.. On F&M etc i think it was encouraging that people not actually actively taking part could see that the actions weren't going to put them and anyone with them in any danger. That's something i think we need to bear in mind if we want mass events to continue.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

Balbi said:


> The duality of Class War and Smash the State are especially good.


 
Class War  mentioned in the Daily Mail today, and the papers generally are hyping up an anarchist attack on the Royal Wedding (I'm getting nervous).


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You Ok...I was beginning to get worried.


 
Thanks Louis, I've picked up a few strains and a foot injury but i will be fighting fit within a week


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Class War  mentioned in the Daily Mail today, and the papers generally are hyping up an anarchist attack on the Royal Wedding (I'm getting nervous).



I'm nervous I might have to watch the telly in case something goes off.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Mar 28, 2011)

> The dopamine rush of credit card financed prêt-a-porter fashion finds its corollary in the jejune fantasies of the retail activist chic.



From the labour list article


----------



## magneze (Mar 28, 2011)

Targetting the wedding would be a bit pointless tbh. Would it even be a useful day to do anything? Wall2wall media coverage of the wedding.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You still, after everything, appear to believe that a strike means that _x, y_ and _z_ won't get done. That isn't the case. Ancillary staff provide emergency cover just like the doctors and nurses.
> Incidentally, if your hospital ward is dirty enough that hard-to-treat infections are taking place, not "cleaning" for 24 hours won't make a perceptible distance, because whatever cleaning techniques are being used are obviously ineffective.



Ancillary staff are the problem. Lack of training or knowledge of hospital procedure, delays, tiredness... these aren't minor things in a hospital. They are killers. Infections aren't spread by dirty hospitals. They are spread by ignorance of patient cases and poor contact hygiene. Both of these are major faults of ancillary staff.



> Nobody has suggested that, you strange person.



That's exactly what you are saying when you suggest that temporary staff are every bit as good as regular staff acquainted with their patients.
It's NHS by numbers, bodies in position with little thought of patient care. And that's just in the hospitals.

You say nothing changes, but all you mean is numbers. Standards will drop.

people will suffer... and for what? Because some posters can't be bothered to think of ways to get their point across without needing vital services to also strike?

Will you be calling the doctors who don't wish to leave their patients 'scabs'?


----------



## Random (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> people will suffer... and for what? Because other people can't be bothered to think of ways to get their point acrossnwithout


 "Can't be bothered" you seem to have an odd view of how serious hospital staff are about patient care.

Being charitable, let's just say you've got a real worry about your parent(s) and it's affecting your position. So stop making political points that make you sound like you have little or no respect for NHS staff.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 28, 2011)

Fuck I ache this morning, but _I'm feeling good!_


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> They are killers. Infections aren't spread by dirty hospitals. They are spread by ignorance of patient cases and poor contact hygiene. Both of these are major faults of ancillary staff.



Nothing to do with the role of internal marketisation and sub-contracting in hospitals then?




Kizmet said:


> people will suffer... and for what? Because other people can't be bothered to think of ways to get their point across without needing vital services to also strike?


 
Fucking hell...


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

*p*



ViolentPanda said:


> Pardon the question, but who are you to decide what "we" want?




I made the mistake of assuming, that despite our differences we ultimately want the same thing... an end to the austerity cuts.

Whereas what some people want is to fight about the differences.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

Random said:


> "Can't be bothered" you seem to have an odd view of how serious hospital staff are about patient care.
> 
> Being charitable, let's just say you've got a real worry about your parent(s) and it's affecting your position. So stop making political points that make you sound like you have little or no respect for NHS staff.



I've got little or no respect for the principle of using temporary staff.

By the way, can't be bothered related to people arguing that the NHS staff should strike regardless of their own thoughts.
Thankfully most staff that I know would not agree with you and find the subject very difficult.


----------



## Random (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Thankfully most staff that I know would not agree with you and find the subject very difficult.


 Yet you still go on to say that they "can't be bothered" to find other ways of taking action?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Nothing to do with the role of internal marketisation and sub-contracting in hospitals then?


 
Everything to do with it. That's partly what started this awful mess. What's your point?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

Random said:


> Yet you still go on to say that they "can't be bothered" to find other ways of taking action?


 
I wasn't referring to them......


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Everything to do with it. That's partly what started this awful mess. What's your point?


 
The way I read it, you were blaming NHS workers.

Especially with the 'can't be bothered' bit FFS. Those of us who have worked and work in the NHS always put patient care first, but withdrawing our labour is always something that has to be there as an option. And not being 'emotionally blackmailled' with the sort of language you're using kizmet.


----------



## Random (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I wasn't referring to them......


 
It certainly looked that way. Can we agree that it is up to NHS workers themselves to decide whether they should strike or not? That they have this right? And that those of us who want patients to be looked after should _support_ NHS workers' action?


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 28, 2011)

He's poison.


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 28, 2011)

got a big post to make later on assorted observations from the day.

One thing I found interesting - the overall feeling I got from the day was that most people viewed it as a bit of a warning shot across the bows of the government. I got the impression (perhaps erroneously) that a lot of the ordinary people on the march so it as the beginning of a fight against the cuts. Perhaps highlighted best by an FBU rep. who i know saying he disliked the violence on the day, not because it was violence per se, but rather he saw it as being 'too soon'. Having said that, I did see some FBU lads laying into the OB ha


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> I think s/he's the voice of the silent majority or something.


 
So you voted for these fuckers but now you're playing the righteous anger against me?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 28, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> Having said that, I did see some FBU lads laying into the OB ha


 
Them firefighters are sound. The posties too.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You Ok...I was beginning to get worried.
> 
> Very encouraged by the numbers of people supportive of the F&M action; I was outside and the road was packed up and down and very positive.
> 
> ...



Seems there were a load of us outside F&M......without ever quite bumping into one another.

Went with the girlfriend, one of her mates and another mate (who does the transpontine blog that a few on here might know). South London feeder which was very good/lively - I took issue with hanging round by the horse (Chris Knight bonkers Bruno) but was outvoted. Peeled off at Trafalgar Square and cut up the backs to Shaftesbury Avenue and Oxford Circus - all a bit lively. 

Spent a bit of time dodging round the backs til we came to F&M - have to say my take similar to others in that those on the march (which was still going past at the time) were at worst indifferent and a significant number actively supportive. Funniest moment was standing next to a DS in the crowd who'd been sent round the front to scope out what was going on - "It's not looking good" into the radio. 

Narrowly avoided the kettle (the girlfriend and her mate looked respectable enough to just walk through) by jumping the gates into the arcade, though I fucked my leg doing it. Was a bit of a mess with people scrambling over, so stood the other side and braced the gates until it was too on top with OB to stick around any longer. Met up with the others for a beer round the backs, but then had to go through the slips so as to get home and take the dog out. 

Great day out.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Good day out all round really, what happens next is key though. Agree with Bone's suggestion that there's a disconnect between some sections that's going to take some serious movement/work to overcome. Haven't really come up with anything more thought through than that for now. (Also good to see TC and Ds, chico etc)


 
Tried to text you but I couldn't send or recieve messages for hours....


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> The way I read it, you were blaming NHS workers.
> 
> Especially with the 'can't be bothered' bit FFS. Those of us who have worked and work in the NHS always put patient care first, but withdrawing our labour is always something that has to be there as an option. And not being 'emotionally blackmailled' with the sort of language you're using kizmet.



Then you read it wrong.

I've edited it now to make it clear I was talking about the posters I am arguing with to save more 'misunderstandings'.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 28, 2011)

Pretty much an identical sequence of events for me, past caring


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2011)

I had an interesting exchange with a woman cop protecting a smashed up Starbucks. She looked a bit pissed off at people endlessly shoving cameras in her face so I chatted to her a bit and she commented that, "some of these protesters forget that we're facing cuts too...".

It's going to get  interesting when those cuts start to really bite.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Then you read it wrong.


 
Well, despite your edit for clarification, I'm still not entirely sure how we are supposed to read:



Kizmet said:


> people will suffer... and for what? Because some posters can't be bothered to think of ways to get their point across without needing vital services to also strike?



Some posters do work in vital services. Sometimes there is very little or no alternative to withdrawing labour to try and ensure that services are not cut/damaged in the wider context. That way, people really will suffer.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

Well my day was all a tad pedestrian..... Took me and a mate, alon with other PCS reps I know, 3 hours to get from Embankment to Trafalgar Square.... By then it'd become obvious that the demo was slowing for somthing.... So we fucked off to the pub....


----------



## Crispy (Mar 28, 2011)

editor said:


> I had an interesting exchange with a woman cop protecting a smashed up Starbucks. She looked a bit pissed off at people endlessly shoving cameras in her face so I chatted to her a bit and she commented that, "some of these protesters forget that we're facing cuts too...".


 
"Your job's next! Your job's next!"


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

magneze said:


> Too early to tell. Got to think of this as the beginning, not the end though. The government will be "ok, you've had a march, lets see if we can ignore it". Need to keep the pressure on.


 


lopsidedbunny said:


> The TUC march none at all what did you expect, it's state run thing and the Labour Party don't listen to them for years now anyhow.
> 
> The feeder marches well shut down business for the day and brought attention to those who are not paying their taxes despite the Daily Hate Sky Corp spin.
> 
> So in all a good thing.


 
Thanks for replies.  

From where I'm standing it seems like the media have got the apathetic majority completely anaesthetised, and those who give a shit seem to be mostly in disarray -some grounds for hope is welcome.


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

editor said:


> I had an interesting exchange with a woman cop protecting a smashed up Starbucks. She looked a bit pissed off at people endlessly shoving cameras in her face so I chatted to her a bit and she commented that, "some of these protesters forget that we're facing cuts too...".
> 
> It's going to get  interesting when those cuts start to really bite.


 
let's hope that doesn't mean they don't get issued with all the necessary equipment needed to help them keep public order. 

The 'human face' of the police kinda slips when you witness what went on in trafalgar sq.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> He's poison.



Running through your veins?


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

magneze said:


> Too early to tell. Got to think of this as the beginning, not the end though. The government will be "ok, you've had a march, lets see if we can ignore it". Need to keep the pressure on.


 
Vince Cable has already said this far more explicitly.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 28, 2011)

Crispy said:


> "Your job's next! Your job's next!"


 


We had (to the tune of London Bridge)

"You thought you were safe from cuts
you were wrong, you were wrong!"

&  "Coppers, protestors, UNITE AND FIGHT" which had a few filth grinning.

Tune of the day went for 'That's the Tories'

When the cuts take the home
that the fucking bank owns
it's the tories

when you'll never again
vote for a lib dem
thats the tories

when etonian boys
take away your kids toys
thats the tories

when the banks in a mess
but they get bonuses
that's the tories

(with apologies to Dean Martin)


----------



## Badgers (Mar 28, 2011)

editor said:


> I had an interesting exchange with a woman cop protecting a smashed up Starbucks. She looked a bit pissed off at people endlessly shoving cameras in her face so I chatted to her a bit and she commented that, "some of these protesters forget that we're facing cuts too...".
> 
> It's going to get  interesting when those cuts start to really bite.


 
Who will they turn on?


----------



## Crispy (Mar 28, 2011)

magneze said:


> Too early to tell. Got to think of this as the beginning, not the end though. The government will be "ok, you've had a march, lets see if we can ignore it". Need to keep the pressure on.


 
Agreed. This, on its own, will do fuck all, but the numbers and the wide range of people attending are good signs that opposition is widespread. The next step up will come when the cuts actually start to bite.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> Thanks for replies.
> 
> From where I'm standing it seems like the media have got the apathetic majority completely anaesthetised, and those who give a shit seem to be mostly in disarray -some grounds for hope is welcome.


 
The media don't run things so clearly anymore.

There is hope. A million on the streets of each city. That's a hope.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> There is hope. A million on the streets of each city. That's a hope.



There could of been 3 million on the March on Saturday and little difference it would make if everyone stuck to the A to Milliband march.

More direct action is needed by more people.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Well, despite your edit for clarification, I'm still not entirely sure how we are supposed to read:
> 
> 
> 
> Some posters do work in vital services. Sometimes there is very little or no alternative to withdrawing labour to try and ensure that services are not cut/damaged in the wider context. That way, people really will suffer.


 
As yet, aside from corax, I'm not aware of anyone I was arguing with who works in the NHS. Some posters does not mean all posters. Especially if you've been following the argument which was that we should try to avoid that kind of universal strike for as long as possible.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> There could of been 3 million on the March on Saturday and little difference it would make if everyone stuck to the A to Milliband march.
> 
> More direct action is needed by more people.


 
Yes. But not in disarray. Co-ordinated and supported en masse.

This has to grow and swell... and all our actions should encourage that growth.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Ancillary staff are the problem.



Do make up your mind. You're flitting about like a moth with it's arse on fire. 



> Lack of training or knowledge of hospital procedure, delays, tiredness... these aren't minor things in a hospital. They are killers. Infections aren't spread by dirty hospitals. They are spread by ignorance of patient cases and poor contact hygiene. Both of these are major faults of ancillary staff.



There was me thinking they were major problems for the permanent medically-trained staff. You know, the ones who actually do wound dressing etc.




> That's exactly what you are saying when you suggest that temporary staff are every bit as good as regular staff acquainted with their patients.



Hmmm, I haven't mentioned the use of temporary staff anywhere, or suggested that temporary staff are "as good as" regular staff.

I *did* mention that staff will still be in attendance, but nothing about where they'd be sourced from (in most cases the TUs make sure that their members make internal arrangements, though).

Want to throw any more fictitious crap into the mix?



> It's NHS by numbers, bodies in position with little thought of patient care. And that's just in the hospitals.



And you *know* this...how? Through extrapolating your personal experience to a national level of effect? Because some guy down the pub told you? Because you have sound data to support your claim?



> You say nothing changes, but all you mean is numbers.



Don't tell me what I mean, especially when you're doing so in order to boost your own argument, there's a good chap.



> Standards will drop.



No.

Standards *may* drop. it isn't a given. 



> people will suffer... and for what? Because some posters can't be bothered to think of ways to get their point across without needing vital services to also strike?



Have you *any* idea how far one has to be pushed, and one actually has to go, to strike? It's not some wildcat decision, it's something that has to conform to regulation regarding how the ballot is conducted, what percentage of the membership responds against the percentage of membership in favour, etc, and strikes, especially for unions such as the RCN, have to be undertaken in a way that has minimal effect on their patients.

You think that those union members haven't already exhausted any alternative method of getting their messages across prior to deciding to strike? Of course they have. They're currently all but obliged to by law, you pusillanimous twit.



> Will you be calling the doctors who don't wish to leave their patients 'scabs'?


 
Why would I do that?

Again, you show that you have little idea as to how services are maintained during a strike. If a doctor doesn't wish to leave their patients, they don't have to. That's why medical staff are generally left to make internal staffing arrangement during a strike.


----------



## magneze (Mar 28, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Agreed. This, on its own, will do fuck all, but the numbers and the wide range of people attending are good signs that opposition is widespread. The next step up will come when the cuts actually start to bite.


Organization is the key and connections between different groups. Unions and students seem to be there - the various Uncut groups seem to be bringing in people who aren't affiliated to either of them. A worry I have is that it took ages for this march to happen - the next one needs to be sooner rather than later IMO.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

Badgers said:


> Who will they turn on?


 
Surely the most effective idea is to have them to join in?


----------



## magneze (Mar 28, 2011)

Can the police strike?


----------



## Balbi (Mar 28, 2011)

magneze said:


> Can the police strike?


 
Not officially. They may push for it though.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 28, 2011)

> How dare they unilaterally decide to conduct their own protest and divert attention from the main event.



http://www.labourlist.org/uk-uncut-owes-a-lot-of-apologies


----------



## xes (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Yes. But not in disarray. Co-ordinated and supported en masse.


 All the "violence" was co-ordinated, but unfortunatly, not en masse.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> By then it'd become obvious that the demo was slowing for somthing.... So we fucked off to the pub....


 
We did the same!


----------



## magneze (Mar 28, 2011)

If the police stage a demonstration then combining that with a TUC & student one would be quite a message - would that mean the army on the streets?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do make up your mind. You're flitting about like a moth with it's arse on fire.



And you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Individually you didn't refute a single point.. just made a personal comment or tangental point for each one.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> As yet, aside from corax, I'm not aware of anyone I was arguing with who works in the NHS. Some posters does not mean all posters. Especially if you've been following the argument which was that we should try to avoid that kind of universal strike for as long as possible.



Frankly, if you were to wait for a universal strike to be called by that point it would probably be too late for a lot of services and workers in them.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

magneze said:


> Can the police strike?


 
They pretty much did on saturday - till the evening anyway.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

xes said:


> All the "violence" was co-ordinated, but unfortunatly, not en masse.


 
That is unfortunate, because it then becomes easy to isolate and make into political gain.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

I got the impression that the Police looked pretty low on morale at the weekend at least during the day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I made the mistake of assuming, that despite our differences we ultimately want the same thing... an end to the austerity cuts.



You miss the point.

Regardless of the fact that we share the same goal, you have no right to speak for anyone but yourself.



> Whereas what some people want is to fight about the differences.


 
If you were more than minimally self-aware, the irony of that comment would pierce you like an arrow.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

magneze said:


> Can the police strike?


 
no, and they aren't workers so fuck em.


----------



## magneze (Mar 28, 2011)

The ones outside TopShop covered in paint being photographed by protesters & tourists look pretty downcast.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> http://hellotenzin.posterous.com/on-being-arrested-for-occupying-fortnum-mason


 
Chappie in your link doesn't seem to realise that one of the reasons for him being in the cells so long is that the OB may have been scrutinising (and possibly cloning) the hard-drive of his laptop and whatever was on his camera's memory card(s).


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

Butchers is right about their being a disconnect between some sections of the protesters and others. Quite a few of the people I was with thought that the Fortnum and Masons occupiers were twats, and before the demo a few of them expressed the view that it was just about "going there, saying our bit and going home again".


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

The question is what can be done to overcome this? Im not sure.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> The question is what can be done to overcome this? Im not sure.


 
Give it six months. When services get blitzed, inflation stays up and wages go down - those people will be less relaxed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> So you voted for these fuckers but now you're playing the righteous anger against me?


 
As I tried to get across earlier, *nobody* voted for "these fuckers". People voted for one or another of three main parties, and two of those parties formed a coalition. In many cases this wasn't what the party's members wanted, but rather suited the purposes/needs of the parliamentary parties.

Rail against people for voting stupidly, by all means, but it's not really correct to rail against Lib-Dem voters for voting for/electing the coalition, because they didn't (which is a prime reason why the Lib-Dem grass-roots are suffering an unprecedented membership loss).


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> The question is what can be done to overcome this? Im not sure.


 
They need to identify with people doing the direct action.

This can be achieved by using a little knowledge of social identity theory. 

Also marching people into exhaustion for hours on end will trim the less devout to the pub/home.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

magneze said:


> Can the police strike?


 
Difficult one. As "crown officers", they're denied a "right to strike" (as are the military), but I'm not aware of the strength of the prohibition on striking having been tested in court since back in the 1990s. TBF, I can't see the Police Federation not having at least got a legal opinion on this, so we may yet see striking coppers picketing New Scotland Yard.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Froggy - give it time, unfortunately things will probably hit harder before people start to 'come round' to such actions. There's still a perception (not helped by the media) that this is just somehow about public sector workers, but the wider public will surely start to see services and jobs in their own areas decline, families/friends suffering and then 'any means neccessary' starts to become more a possibility. 

I spoke to a couple of very Middle England ladies on Saturday who said they'd never gone to a march before, weren't union members (and probably not of left-persuasion) but were seeing some services for the elderly being eroded with no alternative offered by 'the big society'... that will surely increase.

There's always going to be a reasonable section of the public that will view direct actions/'anarchists' as being criminals/thugs, etc. Unless things get really bad. These people will frown upon such actions happening in the UK ('coz we're a democracy') yet will quietly 'cheerlead' such things happening elsewhere such as the East if it means overthrowing oppressive regimes, etc!

Until that time, those of us who believes in marches, demo's and actions have to keep up the pressure.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Frankly, if you were to wait for a universal strike to be called by that point it would probably be too late for a lot of services and workers in them.



Maybe, maybe not. The is little prospect of saving some of them, I think.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> And you are arguing for the sake of arguing.



No, I'm not. I'm arguing with you because you are talking shite.



> Individually you didn't refute a single point.. just made a personal comment or tangental point for each one.


 
You haven't made any points. You've made a mass of unsupported assertions about poster behaviour, about NHS staffing and about a host of other things, but you haven't made anything that more than remotely resembles a "point".


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Maybe, maybe not. The is little prospect of saving some of them, I think.


 
So, that's that then?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

People just worry about the reaction from the media and the general public - although ime the general public are far more relaxed about direct action than people give them credit for, and the media will be hostile anyway.

Although I was embarrassed for the anarkid rapping in front of a line of coppers in Hyde Park.

And we had a couple of PCS members on our coach who were angry because they had been outside when some people smashed a Starbucks window in - they said they were fine with direct action against banks etc but there were ordinary people in Starbucks when the window went in. And they have a point on that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Difficult one. As "crown officers", they're denied a "right to strike" (as are the military), but I'm not aware of the strength of the prohibition on striking having been tested in court since back in the 1990s. TBF, I can't see the Police Federation not having at least got a legal opinion on this, so we may yet see striking coppers picketing New Scotland Yard.


 
they certainly don't have the moral right.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Balbi said:


> Give it six months. When services get blitzed, inflation stays up and wages go down - those people will be less relaxed.


 
Problem being that six months down the road will mean that much harder a fight, and an additional six months for our political masters to find ways to circumvent the political effects of mass action.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> They need to identify with people doing the direct action.
> 
> This can be achieved by using a little knowledge of social identity theory.



It'd still be difficult to balance the spread of appropriate identity-groups through a march so that everyone will interpollate with someone of a dissimilar outlook, though. 



> Also marching people into exhaustion for hours on end will trim the less devout to the pub/home.


 
Thank you for that, comrade Stalin!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> So, that's that then?


 
It's like LLETSA, but without the articulacy and constant mentions of Russia.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, I'm not. I'm arguing with you because you are talking shite.
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't made any points. You've made a mass of unsupported assertions about poster behaviour, about NHS staffing and about a host of other things, but you haven't made anything that more than remotely resembles a "point".


 
Nope. I think, perhaps, you wilfully missed them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> they certainly don't have the moral right.


 
That's just as you'd expect from a profession that seldom demonstrates any moral base to their professional practice though, surely?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> So, that's that then?


 
How can that be that when I've been talking about the need for bigger and more frequent marches?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> People just worry about the reaction from the media and the general public - although ime the general public are far more relaxed about direct action than people give them credit for, and the media will be hostile anyway.
> 
> Although I was embarrassed for the anarkid rapping in front of a line of coppers in Hyde Park.
> 
> And we had a couple of PCS members on our coach who were angry because they had been outside when some people smashed a Starbucks window in - they said they were fine with direct action against banks etc but there were ordinary people in Starbucks when the window went in. *And they have a point on that.*


 
Yep. 
And good post steph x


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It'd still be difficult to balance the spread of appropriate identity-groups through a march so that everyone will interpollate with someone of a dissimilar outlook, though.



I'll expand...

In most other countries plod will not be tolerated within the body of the demo. This helps create 'in'(demonstrators) and 'out'(filth) groups. Through this identity, the more conservative elements will more easily identify with the demonstrators engaging in direct action.

Police should not be tolerated to wander freely within demo. The body of the demo should be a no-go area for them.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> How can that be that when I've been talking about the need for bigger and more frequent marches?


 
And how many marches and loss of jobs/services do we have to have before we realise that strikes, whether small or large, and possibly affecting vital services might be needed in order to send a message to those in power?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> And we had a couple of PCS members on our coach who were angry because they had been outside when some people smashed a Starbucks window in - they said they were fine with direct action against banks etc but there were ordinary people in Starbucks when the window went in. And they have a point on that.


 
Yeah I know what you're saying PT, but, whether a bank full of ordinary people banking, or a Starbucks full of ordinary people drinking, the action is still ultimately directed towards the organisation/business, not those people inside it. Not sure what the option is on that one because either way ordinary people can get hurt/caught up in the action potentially. And yet, I still smiled seeing Starbucks having its windows put in because of my feelings towards them. I think that makes me a bad person.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> And how many marches and loss of jobs/services do we have to have before we realise that strikes, whether small or large, and possibly affecting vital services might be needed in order to send a message to those in power?


 
Personally I don't think many more. I think there is a potential for mass support that will do more than send a message. That will actually encourage a change of direction under the threat of a chamge of leadership.

What is it that you are hoping to achieve?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> He's been trying for a decade to make himself known as the academic voice of the IWW (he's still at it in that article). I wonder if he knew where the IWW phone was on saturday - because it sure as hell wasn't with him.


 
Is he a member?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Personally I don't think many more. I think there is a potential for mass support that will do more than send a message. That will actually encourage a change of direction under the threat of a chamge of leadership.
> 
> What is it that you are hoping to achieve?


 
I'd like to see a reversal that it's a bad thing to have a large public sector and that everything should be fished out to the private sector - connected with at least addressing the balance which people/organisations in society get hit the most if making cuts. Preferably we don't make cuts and start to re-distribute wealth properly.

I'd certainly like to see a change of government too, problem is I don't see even much in an alternative with Labour other than it being not as bad as the Tories/fake Tories.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Is he a member?


Not sure he is, at least i've never seen him claim it - and the stuff he writes usually has a blurb saying who they belong to. Most of is academic work is on US socialists in the first half of last century. he rarely seems to write on anything today - and after that crap i see why.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Them firefighters are sound. The posties too.


 
on the Facebook, "I support London's finest firefighters", there's a real mix of opinion about the black bloc actions, mostly against, but some for.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> I'd like to see a reversal that it's a bad thing to have a large public sector and that everything should be fished out to the private sector - connected with at least addressing which people/organisations in society get hit the most when making cuts. I'd certainly like to see a change of government too, problem is I don't see even much in an alternative with Labour other than it being not as bad as the Tories/fake Tories.



Me too, how do you hope it will happen?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Well my day was all a tad pedestrian..... Took me and a mate, alon with other PCS reps I know, 3 hours to get from Embankment to Trafalgar Square.... By then it'd become obvious that the demo was slowing for somthing.... So we fucked off to the pub....



Yeah, mine was too, but had to be with a 3 year old and a pregnant partner!  Got to embankment at about 1ish, still loads of people not set off, did the route up to Trafalgar Square, then wandered through Soho, past the smashed Anne Summers, up to Oxford Circus.  Had a look at trojan horse, some bloke tried to tell me it was all a masonic set up, I told him to go away, then we went back to my mum and dad's.

Glad we went though.


----------



## strung out (Mar 28, 2011)

so of the 201 arrested on saturday, 149 people were charged, and 138 of those were charged for aggravated trespass at fortnum and mason


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Me too, how do you hope it will happen?


 
Marches, demo's, strikes, direct action, community engagement (but IMO, this doesn't have to be in any order - they can be complimentary and organised) to make a stand and some noise to both the government and the public who seem to think that its inevitable to have cuts because there are no other ways.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> The question is what can be done to overcome this? Im not sure.



Much will, I think, depend on what happens in the months to come. 

The aftermath of the Poll Tax riot saw very little "disconnect" between those who had fought the cops and "ordinary" members of anti-poll tax groups and this was, I think, for a number of reasons (at least in my group - though I think my experience was far from unique).

Things like the miners' strike and Wapping were not just history - they were part of many people's lived experience (I remember after being found not-guilty of some charges following some anti-fash stuff, talking to a couple of women on the jury in the pub afterwards - my brief had expressed concern 'cos they looked like "ordinary housewives" - who were entirely disbelieving of what the police witnesses said, following their husbands' experiences at Wapping. One of these women later ended up in my anti-poll tax group) at the time and so many were prepared to reject what was put forward by the media. Also, it was clear that many "ordinary" people had been involved in resisting the cops - the kind of people who made up the anti-poll tax groups.

That kind of stuff isn't part of people's everyday experience at the moment - though it may come to be.

But all that may be a bit of a tangent on my part.

I think that a lot will depend on how much people involved with UKUncut or other groups are prepared to get involved with local anti-cuts groups, are prepared to put their experience at the service of those groups - and how much those groups can avoid being dominated by the traditional left. 

Some of the kind of actions/tactics which can succeed - e.g. occupations of nurseries or libraries which are to be closed because of cuts and keeping those services open to the public with a combination of volunteers from the public and workforce - are not _that_ radical, or rather, they are not too much of a radical departure, in that many non-politically committed people can be persuaded of their viability. But such actions, if not actually unlawful, still bring people into fairly immediate conflict with the law, into conflict with received notions of who manages and why and into conflict with what they may have thought of as their own capabilities up to that point.

There will be plenty of opportunity for that kind of action in the months to come. And that will, I think, create the possibility of people accepting the importance of action other than conventional marches, even where they might not get involved themselves.

Hopefully, some of the squatter/social centre types will think long and hard about their role - there's been some signs of that in the Deptford Jobcentre squat/social centre. I know that they've been very keen for it to be a proper community resource and a place where those fighting the cuts can meet or come for help etc. So there's been a quite up-front approach of not allowing parties/raves etc. in an attempt to exclude the life-styler types that might put off a lot of working class people from getting involved. I've not been down myself yet, but I've spoken to a couple of mates with their heads screwed on and things are definitely moving in the right direction with that. Early days though......


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2011)

strung out said:


> so of the 201 arrested on saturday, 149 people were charged, and 138 of those were charged for aggravated trespass at fortnum and mason


 
i thought the aggravated bit was dropped?


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> Hopefully, some of the squatter/social centre types will think long and hard about their role - there's been some signs of that in the Deptford Jobcentre squat/social centre. I know that they've been very keen for it to be a proper community resource and a place where those fighting the cuts can meet or come for help etc. So there's been a quite up-front approach of not allowing parties/raves etc. in an attempt to exclude the life-styler types that might put off a lot of working class people from getting involved. I've not been down myself yet, but I've spoken to a couple of mates with their heads screwed on and things are definitely moving in the right direction with that. Early days though......


 
That's actually a really good idea.... hmm.


----------



## strung out (Mar 28, 2011)

killer b said:


> i thought the aggravated bit was dropped?


 
could have been actually. i'm not sure.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Marches, demo's, strikes, direct action, community engagement (but IMO, this doesn't have to be in any order - they can be complimentary and organised) to make a stand and some noise to both the government and the public who seem to think that its inevitable to have cuts because there are no other ways.


 
I didn't mean that, I meant what are you hoping to make happen with regard to changes in policy? and or leadership.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Good day out all round really, what happens next is key though. Agree with Bone's suggestion that there's a disconnect between some sections that's going to take some serious movement/work to overcome. Haven't really come up with anything more thought through than that for now.


 
Hate to say it, but that was the editorial line in Mayday issue 6 published Oct 20th last year; http://mayday-magazine.com/


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 28, 2011)

good post PC

re: what UKuncut people were lifted for - from an email from someone I (and others on here) know

'I was arrested for aggravated trespass at the scene, and at the police station was told I was also arrested for criminal damage.
I have been charged with neither of these offences, but with obstruction and disruption under the CJA 1994 (I can't remember the exact charge, if anyone wants to know I'll get it off the charge sheet).'

INterestingly they've all been given bail conditions barring them from central London during the Royal Weekend with court dates in May


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> INterestingly they've all been given bail conditions barring them from central London during the Royal Weekend with court dates in May


 
ah, that's what it was about then...


----------



## Crispy (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> Some of the kind of actions/tactics which can succeed - e.g. occupations of nurseries or libraries which are to be closed because of cuts and keeping those services open to the public with a combination of volunteers from the public and workforce - are not _that_ radical


 
Big society, innit?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> I didn't mean that, I meant what are you hoping to make happen with regard to changes in policy? and or leadership.


 
I thought I'd sort of described that in post 1021. Given that I'm not a member of any of the mainstream political parties, I've got rather limited power to make anything happen! And despite having been in Labour in the past, found that my voice amongst many seemed to be limited when it comes to change in policy away from neo-liberal, put things out to the market/private sector, we musn't upset the rich/powerful belief of the three main parties. Which is why I left the party and am a bit defeated when it comes to mainstream politics.

Perhaps I should re-join in the hope to 'destroy things from within'.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> They pretty much did on saturday - till the evening anyway.


 
Yeah, that was my thoughts too.  Watching the ruckus on the news, the police could easily have contained it and cracked heads if they'd wanted to.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

But decisions of that kind are made at operational level, not by individual plod or even individual officers.

If it could have been contained and deliberately wasn't, then that begs the question as to why it wasn't.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Mar 28, 2011)

Sorry to derail the thread a bit (and apols if this has been picked up on already), but thought this would be of interest - whilst the media continues to froth about the anarchos, Vince "Man of The People" Cable has announced the scrapping of the 50% tax band - it be in the Graun here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/mar/27/cable-confirms-ending-50p-tax-rate


----------



## London_Calling (Mar 28, 2011)

The march looked a huge success. Top stuff!

The kids at the end did what kids  have always done. Tbf, after over 40 years of direct political action (in the modern era) it's not a massive surprise. The mock horror of the media equally so.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> If it could have been contained and deliberately wasn't, then that begs the question as to why it wasn't.


 
I may be chatting shit here, but a few of us were talking on the way down that the coppers would either go in hard to demonstrate 'this is what we can do for you' or go soft to demonstrate what happens when the police take it easy. Police Fed's comments the other week were clear brinkmanship imo.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

MellySingsDoom said:


> Sorry to derail the thread a bit (and apols if this has been picked up on already), but thought this would be of interest - whilst the media continues to froth about the anarchos, Vince "Man of The People" Cable has announced the scrapping of the 50% tax band - it be in the Graun here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/mar/27/cable-confirms-ending-50p-tax-rate


 
Already filed on the 'Why the Lib Dems are shit' thread, always plenty of stuff to add 

Hi btw to urban


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> I thought I'd sort of described that in post 1021. Given that I'm not a member of any of the mainstream political parties, I've got rather limited power to make anything happen! And despite having been in Labour in the past, found that my voice amongst many seemed to be limited when it comes to change in policy away from neo-liberal, put things out to the market/private sector, we musn't upset the rich/powerful belief of the three main parties. Which is why I left the party and am a bit defeated when it comes to mainstream politics.
> 
> Perhaps I should re-join in the hope to 'destroy things from within'.


 
I didn't originally catch your edit. 

These marches and actions will only achieve anything if they encourage that change of direction now. Within the framework of government we currently have. They need to understand that austerity measures will not be tolerated for the sake of repaying a handful of powerful organizations. That they need to seek an alternative.

How can that be made to happen? Only with popular support. Nothing else will work. They need to understand that they will not receive a single vote unless they change.

That support is there in principle. And it will grow as the cuts hit. The only real danger to this movement is that it shoots itself in the foot just as it is beginning.

Hurting people will hurt this cause. That was my starting point and it remains my conviction. Organised, peaceful growing protest.

Maybe it will tale general strikes to get there... I don't think it will.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I may be chatting shit here, but a few of us were talking on the way down that the coppers would either go in hard to demonstrate 'this is what we can do for you' or *go soft to demonstrate what happens when the police take it easy*. Police Fed's comments the other week were clear brinkmanship imo.


 
Yeah we were discussing this in the pub afterwards. After all the flak they've taken over recent policing efforts, it's not too surprising that they decided to demonstrate what happens when they back off. Cue the inevitable media outrage about destruction, etc etc, and calls for more hardline policing in future. I bet the next demo is pigged to fuck, and with mainstream support this time.


----------



## A. Spies (Mar 28, 2011)

Good day.
didn't know much about it on the way down, thought the Oxford Road/ circus stuff was ace. Supported by loads of people off the TUC march, effective, visible, happy and what I saw managed to do direct action and property damage that only looked like that - not scary. I'm not criticising anything else with that, just thought that paint bombing is a really effective means of shutting shops in a "non-violent" looking way. The cops looked confused and embarrassed most of the time, especially the one covered in red paint.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

I don't think the hands-off approach was some engineered tactic to elicit the required smashed shop windows to feed the press.

I think they were just outnumbered and playing light touch because of the 'official' tuc nature of the main event etc.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not sure he is, at least i've never seen him claim it - and the stuff he writes usually has a blurb saying who they belong to. Most of is academic work is on US socialists in the first half of last century. he rarely seems to write on anything today - and after that crap i see why.


 
He's certainly got a cheek!


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't think the hands-off approach was some engineered tactic to elicit the required smashed shop windows to feed the press.
> 
> I think they were just outnumbered and playing light touch because of the 'official' tuc nature of the main event etc.



Do you think they could ever turn and join in the march?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Already filed on the 'Why the Lib Dems are shit' thread, always plenty of stuff to add
> 
> Hi btw to urban



Oops!  Cheers stephj, and thanks


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> But decisions of that kind are made at operational level, not by individual plod or even individual officers.
> 
> If it could have been contained and deliberately wasn't, then that begs the question as to why it wasn't.


 
This is true...


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Good day out all round really, what happens next is key though. Agree with Bone's suggestion that there's a disconnect between some sections that's going to take some serious movement/work to overcome. Haven't really come up with anything more thought through than that for now. (Also good to see TC and Ds, chico etc)


 
You and yours could start with quitting the petty judgementalism of those that don't meet your purist criteria.

There's a fuckload more people in this country that would support radical action, but are pushed away because they don't meet the standards of those who have committed wholesale.

Not up for a ruck, and I'm sure you'd win anyway, so other than anything civil I'll leave that as a cairn.  Lights fuse, runs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

nope. Too much invested. They stand or fall with the ptb.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> You and yours could start with quitting the petty judgementalism of those that don't meet your purist criteria.
> 
> There's a fuckload more people in this country that would support radical action, but are pushed away because they don't meet the standards of those who have committed wholesale.



You what?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> This is true...


 
That's why I was wondering whether the Police had got it wrong on a strategic level, were holding back in case they fuelled things during the day even more considering the turnout, or Police officer morale is just really low?


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't think the hands-off approach was some engineered tactic to elicit the required smashed shop windows to feed the press.
> 
> I think they were just outnumbered and playing light touch because of the 'official' tuc nature of the main event etc.


 
This was the impression I got from where I was as well.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> nope. Too much invested. They stand or fall with the ptb.


 
They won't fall. Which means they also have an interest in avoiding these cuts.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You what?


 
Exactly.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 28, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> This was the impression I got from where I was as well.


 
Yes, I think it was a combination of lack of numbers (in comparison to the area they'd have to cover, anyway), protestors being sensible and not hanging around in one place or in huge groups, and also that the whole place was packed with shoppers and tourists as well. When the latter two weren't the case, things started happening.


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2011)

The police have been a *very* different beast since G20. There was their last really brutal hurrah and now they know they can't get away with it again - at least not until the public mood swings in the opposite direction.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> Exactly.


 
No, i mean what the fuck are you on about? You can back up the post or not - that's your choice, but the question about your mental post is still there.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> You and yours could start with quitting the petty judgementalism of those that don't meet your purist criteria.
> 
> There's a fuckload more people in this country that would support radical action, but are pushed away because they don't meet the standards of those who have committed wholesale.
> 
> Not up for a ruck, and I'm sure you'd win anyway, so other than anything civil I'll leave that as a cairn.  Lights fuse, runs.



Corax, how is your post a response to BA's? I'm not saying that the attitude you describe isn't one you hear being voiced, but I don't see it in the post you quoted.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 28, 2011)

As mentioned on another thread - the 'light touch' policing was partly lack of numbers and (not unrelated) a clear deisre not to provoke a full scale poll tax stylee riot. TSG going in all hyped up and aggro when theres maybe half a million protestors on the streets - plus all the satruday shoppers and tourists - would have been a disaster (for them).


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 28, 2011)

> Originally Posted by past caring
> But decisions of that kind are made at operational level, not by individual plod or even individual officers.
> 
> If it could have been contained and deliberately wasn't, then that begs the question as to why it wasn't.



Would 4500 plods keep control of 500 000 people? I don't think so after all the Black Block were with the TUC March at the start which means kettling 500 000 people or there abouts being kettled...


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

'couldn't run a bath' sic


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> As mentioned on another thread - the 'light touch' policing was partly lack of numbers and (not unrelated) a clear deisre not to provoke a full scale poll tax stylee riot. TSG going in all hyped up and aggro when theres maybe half a million protestors on the streets - plus all the satruday shoppers and tourists - would have been a disaster (for them).


 
So what you saying? They did a decent job?


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> As mentioned on another thread - the 'light touch' policing was partly lack of numbers and (not unrelated) a clear deisre not to provoke a full scale poll tax stylee riot. TSG going in all hyped up and aggro when theres maybe half a million protestors on the streets - plus all the satruday shoppers and tourists - would have been a disaster (for them).


The amount of shoppers milling about at Oxford Circus made kettling pretty much an unsustainable option, even if the cops had wanted to.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No, i mean what the fuck are you on about? You can back up the post or not - that's your choice, but the question about your mental post is still there.


 
Do you not think that some posters give the impression of demanding a certain amount of political commitment, knowledge, purity, in order to be taken seriously?  Do you think this attitude (here, but also extrapolated to RL) helps in engaging those on the fringe, or hinders it?


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

editor said:


> The police have been a *very* different beast since G20. There was their last really brutal hurrah and now they know they can't get away with it again - at least not until the public mood swings in the opposite direction.


 
Dunno, they were pretty bad on the student strikes.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> Do you not think that some posters give the impression of demanding a certain amount of political commitment, knowledge, purity, in order to be taken seriously?  Do you think this attitude (here, but also extrapolated to RL) helps in engaging those on the fringe, or hinders it?


 
But this is a message board, not real life.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> Do you not think that some posters give the impression of demanding a certain amount of political commitment, knowledge, purity, in order to be taken seriously?  Do you think this helps in engaging those on the fringe, or hinders it?



I've spent the last 6 months working my arse off against any ideas of purity. I've been arguing for and working towards actions that allow people to see the commonality of their situations though joint action beyond agreement with any pre-defined ideological postion. Purity has precisely nothing to with it. You've totally picked the wrong target for this criticism here. As it goes yes i do think some people act like that and yes i think it's a problem - my experience is that these are marginalised and with little influence in the wider movement(s). Which is why they do it.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> So what you saying? They did a decent job?


 
The plod did what they feasibly could. They were thwarted by numbers and the tactics/quick repsonses of protestors.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 28, 2011)

Can't get audio on my computer at the mo, but looks like some interesting footage on this video:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/mar/28/march-alternative-police-video


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I've spent the last 6 months working my arse off against any ideas of purity. I've been arguing for and working towards actions that allow people to see the commonality of their situations though joint action beyond agreement with any pre-defined ideological postion. Purity has precisely nothing to with it. You've totally picked the wrong target for this criticism here. As it goes yes i do think some people act like that and yes i think it's a problem - my experience is that these are marginalised and with little influence in the wider movement(s). Which is why they do it.


 
That was the the impression I'd gained of you on here.

Given what you've posted, apparently that impression was wrong, in which case I *gladly* retract.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> That was the the impression I'd gained of you on here.
> 
> Given what you've posted, apparently that impression was wrong, in which case I *gladly* retract.


 
No worries.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Corax, how is your post a response to BA's?


 
Wider context Louis.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> Wider context Louis.


 
I've seen the later posts between you and BA; it makes more sense now.

Thanks for the clarification - Louis MacNeice


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Dunno, they were pretty bad on the student strikes.


Did you go to both protests? They were nowhere near as brutal as they were at G20 and they didn't try and censor the press either.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

editor said:


> Did you go to both protests? They were nowhere near as brutal as they were at G20 and they didn't try and censor the press either.


 
I went to the Manc ones, and the coppers were rough as fuck.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> That's why I was wondering whether the Police had got it wrong on a strategic level, were holding back in case they fuelled things during the day even more considering the turnout, or Police officer morale is just really low?



It's not impossible for all three of those factors to have been at work - they're not mutually exclusive.

I'd be hesitant to say that moral is low, but only because I don't know/socialise with OB and don't know anyone who does - so I've simply no way of guaging this. And given that for large numbers of the population who will most definitely be affected by the cuts in the months and years to come, the cuts have still yet to become part of everyday reality, I'd be surprised if a particular section of society that has traditionally been protected from austerity measures in the past (i.e. the OB) were _at present_ experiencing a drop in moral over something that has yet to happen. I think that any apparent lack of moral on the day is more likely to be explained by officers' own awareness that they weren't being hugely effective.

That said, it did strike me on the day that a significant number of police transports/mini-buses were not their own and had been hired from Europcar - something I've not seen in the past. And - whether through strategic error or design - they were certainly a few steps behind on more than one occasion (e.g. - reinforcements arriving Shaftesbury Avenue long after they were needed; a couple of thousand protestors moving away from Oxford Circus, south down Regent Street, not with the intention of going anywhere else, but to expand the area held by the protestors and make it that much more difficult to kettle - and the police being unable to stop that).

Ultimately though, I think it is perhaps a mistake to concentrate too much on the issue of whether perceived failings in police tactics were as a result of error or came about as a result of a longer strategic view - because from our point of view I don't think it matters hugely. 

What I do think we need to remember is;

1. The police have long since stopped being even nominally neutral. By which I _do not_ mean that they side with capital (that has always been the case) but that at chief constable/intelligence/policy level, they most certainly do have an agenda and are quite happy to lobby for that agenda (the agenda is a quite open one - "we need more resources - look at these threats we are facing") and to engineer situations so that their concerns are shown to have some merit. It may not have been the case that strategic thinking on this occasion was "We'll let the anarchos have their head of steam for a bit - the'll show the government what happens if we don't wade in/have enough resources" - but that doesn't mean they're not capable of this type of thinking/planning.

2. Any hope of breaking significant numbers of police from their traditional role rests on making our fight effective, rather than hoping for strikes or union organisation within police ranks. Their training, conditions, privileged position, isolation from mainstream society all mean that the requisite introspection is unlikely on anything other than an individual level - at least until the question of who governs becomes a much more immediate one.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

> Their training, conditions, privileged position, isolation from mainstream society all mean that the requisite introspection is unlikely on anything other than an individual level



and that is the point nailed. Being a british copper means a certain inherent conservatism will prevail- and unless the gov. does or orders done something that seriously breaches the 'good copper, good man' morality the individual holds then they will do as told.

it'd also be stupidity itself to trust any of them who did 'turn' so to speak.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

*What's the deal with Ann Summers*

Apparently they got a minor battering.  The media reporting it as being by 'militant queers', but fuck knows if that's right.

Do Ann Summers promote being heteronorm?  I always thought they just sold tat that you could use however you choose, but I'm interested if there's agendas I've missed.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Just getting some poppers.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Just getting some poppers.





Fucking hell it's a while since I had any poppers. Mind, I only sniffed 'em while playing Wipeout on my mate's PS1.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Fucking hell it's a while since I had any poppers. Mind, I only sniffed 'em while playing Wipeout on my mate's PS1.


 
Aiiiiiiiiii.  The headaches.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> I only sniffed 'em while playing Wipeout on my mate's PS1.



I ain't ever heard it called that before.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 28, 2011)

Home Sec is in parliament now talking about football like 'banning orders' against individuals prior to marches etc. 

Also greater use of the powers to enforce removal of face masks etc. I saw that for the first time since my hunt sabbing days at the weekend


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

Corax said:


> Apparently they got a minor battering.  The media reporting it as being by 'militant queers', but fuck knows if that's right.
> 
> Do Ann Summers promote being heteronorm?  I always thought they just sold tat that you could use however you choose, but I'm interested if there's agendas I've missed.



The Anne Summers in Soho had smashed windows, and there was another sex shop, on Brewer St, that had "sex is not for sale" spray painted on it.  Ironic I thought, given that sex very much *is* for sale in Soho.


----------



## Kizmet (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> and that is the point nailed. Being a british copper means a certain inherent conservatism will prevail- and unless the gov. does or orders done something that seriously breaches the 'good copper, good man' morality the individual holds then they will do as told.
> 
> it'd also be stupidity itself to trust any of them who did 'turn' so to speak.


 
This government are foolish enough to breach that morality with self-interest.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

I only put out for the girlfriend on Sat night 'cos she bought me a curry. 



*Scabs*


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

Parliament are now muttering over Boris Johnsons comments re the weekend, any idea what they were?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 28, 2011)

Dan U said:


> Home Sec is in parliament now talking about football like 'banning orders' against individuals prior to marches etc.
> 
> Also greater use of the powers to enforce removal of face masks etc. I saw that for the first time since my hunt sabbing days at the weekend



..would be an interesting development, answerable only with Lets All Mask Up Together action






How did it play out in HuntSab days Dan -  did they succeed in de-masking? a lot harder when there hundreds strong marching together id imagine...


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 28, 2011)

going off the ticker on BBC I suspect it's the bi-yearly debate on

a) giving police more powers to deal with 'violent' demonstrations
b) Making masking up illegal


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 28, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Parliament are now muttering over Boris Johnsons comments re the weekend, any idea what they were?


 
Said Ed Miliband was 'quietly satisfied' with the rucks etc kicking off.
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ck-on-ed-miliband-is-wrong-and-disgraceful.do




			
				BoJo said:
			
		

> Mr Johnson had suggested Mr Miliband's only solution to the country's economic problems was to "get a load of aggressive crusties and Lefties" to cause "argy-bargy" in London. In his Telegraph column, he added: "The sad thing is that in spite of their crocodile tears, Balls and Miliband will feel quietly satisfied by the disorder - a token, they will tell themselves, of the public feeling that is out there to exploit."
> 
> Mr Johnson said 4,500 police officers had been "obliged to waste their time (and our money)" in controlling events as peacefully as they could.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Said Ed Miliband was 'quietly satisfied' with the rucks etc kicking off.


 
He really is a bit of a fud isn't he? Johnson I mean..... Well, in this instance.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 28, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> He really is a bit of a fud isn't he? Johnson I mean..... Well, in this instance.


 
What amazes me is how he's managed to create this pseudo-intellectual 'oh he's so clever' image, by quoting a bit of Latin and being a contrarian here and there, when actually he's sub-par on the brains front, even for a Tory.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> The Anne Summers in Soho had smashed windows, and there was another sex shop, on Brewer St, that had "sex is not for sale" spray painted on it.  Ironic I thought, given that sex very much *is* for sale in Soho.



There was something about sexism painted on the windows of the Ann Summers shop.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> What amazes me is how he's managed to create this pseudo-intellectual 'oh he's so clever' image, by quoting a bit of Latin and being a contrarian here and there, when actually he's sub-par on the brains front, even for a Tory.


 
Because the media help him create that image. They like to giver him that 'intellectual' who's a man of the people schtick/.... Snidey class hatred added to patronising arrogance aswell to imply his stupidity makes him like ordinary folk....


----------



## Dan U (Mar 28, 2011)

ska invita said:


> How did it play out in HuntSab days Dan -  did they succeed in de-masking? a lot harder when there hundreds strong marching together id imagine...



Yeah that was it basically, picking off small groups and telling them to demask. Funny enough the same way I saw it happening at the weekend


----------



## rekil (Mar 28, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> There was something about sexism painted on the windows of the Ann Summers shop.


 What's wrong with being sexy.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 28, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Can't get audio on my computer at the mo, but looks like some interesting footage on this video:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/mar/28/march-alternative-police-video



was quite interesting actually.  cheers.


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> It's not impossible for all three of those factors to have been at work - they're not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I'd be hesitant to say that moral is low, but only because I don't know/socialise with OB and don't know anyone who does - so I've simply no way of guaging this. And given that for large numbers of the population who will most definitely be affected by the cuts in the months and years to come, the cuts have still yet to become part of everyday reality, I'd be surprised if a particular section of society that has traditionally been protected from austerity measures in the past (i.e. the OB) were _at present_ experiencing a drop in moral over something that has yet to happen. I think that any apparent lack of moral on the day is more likely to be explained by officers' own awareness that they weren't being hugely effective.
> 
> ...


 
excellent post. Just a couple of other bits 

1. the two top cops ultimately making the decisions on the day we both new boys in terms of heading up large public order situations, which may have some bearing on why things went the way they did, 

2. they could have a section 60 in place right at the beginning and used to throughout the day just as a policy of disrupting the flow of the black bloc, the fact they didn't use it would've come from high up the chain - acpo territory.

3. there's a lot of internal politics and power struggles going on amongst the top cop elite at the minute - 'intelligence gathering' once the _school prefects_ of public order are more or less finished, acpo's losing it's status as unquestionable policy makers and there's a new generation of fearless mischief makers who can out run the lot of us


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 28, 2011)

copliker said:


> What's wrong with being sexy.



Sexy as defined by who?

Or was that irony...


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

I think it was a joke.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> I'll expand...
> 
> In most other countries plod will not be tolerated within the body of the demo. This helps create 'in'(demonstrators) and 'out'(filth) groups. Through this identity, the more conservative elements will more easily identify with the demonstrators engaging in direct action.
> 
> Police should not be tolerated to wander freely within demo. The body of the demo should be a no-go area for them.


 
Well, if you'd said that in the first place...  

I thought you were implying something more complex than straightforward not cop/cop cleavage, something along the lines of the lions lying down with the lambs, not merely differentiating the masses from the donkeys.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I think it was a joke.


 I like the 'think' bit


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Cheers for your posts PC, revlon - interesting to read your thoughts on the machinations of the police


----------



## rekil (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I think it was a joke.


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I think it was a joke.



Irony then.

Is this P&P?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

I deliberated replying to copliker as I wasn't entirely sure!


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> Irony then.
> 
> Is this P&P?


 
No humour allowed!


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I like the 'think' bit


 
Well it is Monday...


----------



## Red Cat (Mar 28, 2011)

I thought maybe this thread was in general and I don't remember copliker's politics.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> And how many marches and loss of jobs/services do we have to have before we realise that strikes, whether small or large, and possibly affecting vital services might be needed in order to send a message to those in power?


 
Let's face it, Steph. You and I both know that marches alone aren't going to cut it, that industrial and possibly societal action *beyond* marching is necessary, but we also know that certain workers, because of their specific work ethos or ethical code, will still provide their services during a strike. That doesn't, however (whatever Kizmet may believe to the contrary) mean that *some* members of that profession shouldn't take industrial action on behalf of their colleagues, "pinching" those services without closing them off completely.

Kizmet will complain that this will inevitably cost lives, but the truth is that it has never been proven (and G-d knows the Tories tried during their last reign to do so) that industrial action by emergency services caused greater loss of life than would have occurred if no industrial action had taken place.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> I thought maybe this thread was in general and I don't remember copliker's politics.


 
I think he likes cops.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

Another joke?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> Personally I don't think many more. I think there is a potential for mass support that will do more than send a message. That will actually encourage a change of direction under the threat of a chamge of leadership.



Have you checked the broadcast media today? There's a very strong discursive impulse toward dismissing the march for various reasons (many of which have already been mentioned on this and other threads). Those who are in power, along with their paymasters and hangers-on, aren't going to buckle easily over the cuts, and while it would be nice if Clegg and his party imploded, opening the way for a possible new election, you can be sure that the Tories will  do just as they have when previously in coalition - go out of their way to shore up the faction that supports them. Huhne has doubtless already been visited by various men in pinstriped trousers telling him how "unwise it would be to rock the political boat right now, old chap".

Change of direction is unlikely (although u-turns on *parts* of policies are possible, perhaps even probable), because both parties to the coalition have invested too much in this. Both parts have pretty much pissed off a significant minority (or more) of their grass roots membership, so for those MPs there may be no going back on the cuts, personal greed and selfishness will triumph over what's best for their constituents.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> Another joke?




Mondays are a struggle innit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Marches, demo's, strikes, direct action, community engagement (but IMO, this doesn't have to be in any order - they can be complimentary and organised) to make a stand and some noise to both the government and the public who seem to think that its inevitable to have cuts because there are no other ways.


 
^^^^Absolutely.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Mar 28, 2011)

Theresa May in the House of Commons just now saying she'll look at givng the police "extra powers" to prevent violence, including preventing "known troublemakers" from going to demos, wider use of stop and search, and forcing people to uncover their faces.


----------



## xes (Mar 28, 2011)

queue lots of "I'm wearing a balaclava becasue it's cold" placards


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let's face it, Steph. You and I both know that marches alone aren't going to cut it, that industrial and possibly societal action *beyond* marching is necessary, but we also know that certain workers, because of their specific work ethos or ethical code, will still provide their services during a strike. That doesn't, however (whatever Kizmet may believe to the contrary) mean that *some* members of that profession shouldn't take industrial action on behalf of their colleagues, "pinching" those services without closing them off completely.
> 
> Kizmet will complain that this will inevitably cost lives, but the truth is that it has never been proven (and G-d knows the Tories tried during their last reign to do so) that industrial action by emergency services caused greater loss of life than would have occurred if no industrial action had taken place.


 
Yeah, I do indeed and quite agree VP.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

oh for fuck's sake.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

xes said:


> queue lots of "I'm wearing a balaclava becasue it's cold" placards


 
mass burqa wearing for all


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

I'd be up for that.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 28, 2011)

They always say that sort of thing though.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Theresa May in the House of Commons just now saying she'll look at givng the police "extra powers" to prevent violence, including preventing "known troublemakers" from going to demos, wider use of stop and search, and forcing people to uncover their faces.


 
Cue people then blaming it on direct activists/anarchists 'for ruining protest for everyone' rather than then pointing their fingers at the government/police for draconian measures and heavy handedness. I'm quite expecting Moon to use that line despite his constant bitching about civil liberties.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> I'd be up for that.


 
When's the next edl panto?


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> I'd be up for that.



Those lezzer DMs sticking out the bottom would be a dead giveaway, though.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> So what you saying? They did a decent job?



As good as they could have got really.

As I said on the other thread I think the day was a score draw - as Kaka says they avoided PR disaster, and got a more manageable result of property damage. On the other hand, while the mobile squads are excellent we didn't score any big goals or link up with the main march. 

As a whole the organised anarchists were non existent, no coherent plan of what to do on the day, and nothing attempted. Saying that the independent, autonomous, and ultra left Marxists weren't any better. Saying that, I salute the Wombles (if they can be described so) for at least attempting something (that was fekked  by the RCG, but thats another story).


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Were you at Kennington?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Theresa May in the House of Commons just now saying she'll look at givng the police "extra powers" to prevent violence, including preventing "known troublemakers" from going to demos, wider use of stop and search, and forcing people to uncover their faces.


 THats almost straight from the Times today.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Were you at Kennington?


 Ah, you could have a point there, feel free to fill it out.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> mass burqa wearing for all


 
Or 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





As reccomended by the Daily Mail.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2011)

copliker said:


> What's wrong with being sexy.


 
It's *Spinal Tap*,  people!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Ah, you could have a point there, feel free to fill it out.


 
On here! No chance. You vanished sharpish sat, i did have a proper question to sk you as well.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

I was expecting an attempt at a sit down protest or something at Downing Street.  Maybe there was, but we missed it, given it took several hours for all of march to go past!


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Floral scarfs to cover the face for the Middle England masses.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> Those lezzer DMs sticking out the bottom would be a dead giveaway, though.


 
I could wear my steel capped work boots, lot less conspicuous.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I've spent the last 6 months working my arse off against any ideas of purity. I've been arguing for and working towards actions that allow people to see the commonality of their situations though joint action beyond agreement with any pre-defined ideological postion. Purity has precisely nothing to with it. You've totally picked the wrong target for this criticism here. As it goes yes i do think some people act like that and yes i think it's a problem - my experience is that these are marginalised and with little influence in the wider movement(s). Which is why they do it.


 
THis is excellent and an admirable state of play, I hope I have helped to forward such a line 

The thing is I think Corax is sensitive and detects a certain hectoring tone, maybe in you, certainly in others, which may lead to such a suggestion. Just a thort.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> I could wear my steel capped work boots, lot less conspicuous.


 
Could it work for blokes too or would it all be a bit Robbie Coltrane?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> On here! No chance. You vanished sharpish sat, i did have a proper question to ask you as well.


 

I do apologise Butch, if you meant 'vanished sharpish' from a certain pub we went around Traf sq and back up towards picadilly/eros having some chats along the way. Then we went for some dinner sharpish and there was some extra stuff to do by some of the party which didn't get finished till 3am. Practical excercises in anti criminology and thats another offline story too.

If you want to talk you should come to the Durham Miners gala on saturday 9th July, it should be a good day out with many faces there. Other than that, I have no other date where we can cuddle up  but I am willing to listen to any suggestions you have.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 28, 2011)

forcing people to uncover their faces?

fair enough...
















it wasn't that cold...

apart from night time at Trafalgar Square of course, when they all had them on.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> Could it work for blokes too or would it all be a bit Robbie Coltrane?


 
Well i dunno, but you could give it a go.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 28, 2011)

5:48 in this video, a hooded man decides he had enough and shows something to police who let him through to escape the confrontation...



from Jody McIntyre's blog...

http://jodymcintyre.wordpress.com/2...ng-the-people-doing-the-oppressing-malcolm-x/


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> 5:48 in this video, a hooded man decides he had enough and shows something to police who let him through to escape the confrontation...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




well spotted. If you look just a few seconds before that he pushes the crowd back aggressively and does a calm down motion with his hands. He takes refuge behind the phone boxes. We'll have to have some more of him. White trainers, blue jeans, not black bloc.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

IMPORTANT - defendants meeting;
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=163019683752975

Defendants' meeting - Saturday 2nd April - 2pm - University of London Student Union, Malet Street, WC1E 7HY

Were you either charged with an offence or bailed to return to a police station soon? We know it's a worrying time and information can be difficult to come by. We also know from previous experience that it can be isolating and intimidating. The best way to deal with this is to meet others in the same position as yourself an...d stick together. The police want you to feel isolated and alone - but meeting and talking with other people facing the same pressures, and working together, can make everyone stronger.

So, we are calling a DEFENDANTS' MEETING on Saturday 2nd April - 2pm - University of London Student Union, Malet Street, WC1E 7HY

It could help your case to attend and it will definitely help your confidence. This is a meeting for DEFENDANTS ONLY. If you are not a defendant or accompanying a defendant you WILL be asked to leave.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> THis is excellent and an admirable state of play, I hope I have helped to forward such a line
> 
> The thing is I think Corax is sensitive and detects a certain hectoring tone, maybe in you, certainly in others, which may lead to such a suggestion. Just a thort.


 
Behind those that are actively involved, are a great many more that have similar thoughts and aims, but won't risk the security of their families etc to fight for it - yet.  There are those like me that will mobilise occasionally, turning up and getting involved in black despite having no support network, and there are those that never do, but _would_.  Achieve a certain critical mass and I think numbers would swell exponentially.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 28, 2011)

revlon said:


> well spotted. If you look just a few seconds before that he pushes the crowd back aggressively and does a calm down motion with his hands. He takes refuge behind the phone boxes. We'll have to have some more of him. White trainers, blue jeans, not black bloc.


 
Yes, that is very well spotted.


----------



## Dave Mullen (Mar 28, 2011)

Apparently two Sky News journalists were caught paying people to smash windows in Tunbridge Wells. The Scum has a number to call them 020 7782 4104 or email exclusive@the-sun.co.uk.Does anyone know their names if so I think they should be shopped inciting criminal offences is in itself a criminal offence. I'd gladly shop the bastards.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2011)

Dave Mullen said:


> I'd gladly shop the bastards.


Quite.  Would rather not do it to the scum though...


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

revlon said:


> well spotted. If you look just a few seconds before that he pushes the crowd back aggressively and does a calm down motion with his hands. He takes refuge behind the phone boxes. We'll have to have some more of him. White trainers, blue jeans, not black bloc.



I've watched that footage a few times now.

He is actually having a fight with a few of the crowd (there are three or four throwing punches at him, at least) - the surge between the phone kiosks is people trying to have a go at him and he nearly gets pushed through between the boxes before being dragged back. It's only then that he does the aggressive push. 

Possibly a few bods had twigged on who he was before he got let through police lines.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes, i'd like to have _heard_ what was going on there.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 28, 2011)

When we got kettled I saw several (3 or 4) individuals flash a card at police and get let straight through without a word. I thought it was dodge cos they were on their own, had no cameras, were all young men and didn't speak to the officers (i.e 'Im press - can I get through please? - heres my card').


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 28, 2011)

recognise any of these from the student protests?


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> recognise any of these from the student protests?



The bloke with the grey woolly hat would only have had to put his hood up to be the same one getting a clump in the earlier video.

ETA: And if I'm right about that, whoever took that last video should be very careful indeed.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 28, 2011)

I've not read this thread since page 15 (on 40 post per page) and I'm not sure if/when I'll get around to it, I'm just going add my personal story for now and one link, apologies if the link has been posted.

I took part in the ukuncut actions on oxford street, where we saw every tax avoider close, there were probably low thousands of people there but I really don't know how to tell - oxford circus was pretty rammed, anyone know how many were in the kettle there in 2001? similar number there I reckon, though it's hard to tell as the trojan horse was there taking up space.. 
At 3:30 followed the green umbrellas to fortnum and mason where we peacefully occupied.
Was vaguely aware of things going on outside due to twitter and a few glances out of windows from the first floor (though the police kept those of us who stayed up there in the middle).
We had meetings every half hour from 5pm to decide whether we should leave or stay and at 6pm came to a decision that we were too big a group to find a consensus and that we should go with a majority decision which was to leave, rather than hold on for a consensus - we had already made a consensus decision that we should all leave together.
We were told by the police that we would be let go and there was no kettle outside, but in fact we were kettled and all arrested - 139 people (out of 149 charged on saturday).
I was released on bail on sunday evening, I have been charged with obstruction/disruption under the CJA 1994 section 68(1) and (3), with a court date of 12th may.  My only condition is that I'm not allowed in London over the royal wedding weekend.. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/28/cuts-protest-uk-uncut-fortnum

In this video you can see the police officer in charge in the shop say that we would be allowed to leave.  I'm not sure if this gives us grounds to sue for false imprisonment or wrongful arrest or anything.  I also don't know if I can sue for wrongful arrest as my charge is different to the ones I was arrested for (aggravated trespass and criminal damage).. will take legal advice on that one.

Anyone who was arrested either at f&m or elsewhere on saturday should contact GBC legal - gbclegal at riseup dot net - and come to the defendants meeting on saturday, 2pm at ULU - http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=163019683752975 
If you can't make it, pm me because I've already told one person I'll make sure notes are made and that I'll get them to him/her so I can do it for you as well.

I've had lots of support for this from everywhere, GMB have told me that the regional organiser will represent me if I get a disciplinary at work because they are supportive of the ukuncut action (I don't know if that is GMB nationally or just west mids), which is great.

I will try to read through this thread though, I would love to know everything that went on on saturday and sunday, but having missed sat evening and the whole of sunday I don't know how long that will take


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

What good can smashing windows lighting a few fires, spraying anarchy signs, writing Klass War in silver paint, breaking into a toff shop and being leary towards the police do?

It seems there will always be idiots at demo's.

I can't help but think it's down to having the voice of a mute mouse and being agressive towards buildings by smashing and spraying is an attention whores trick.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 28, 2011)




----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Fuck off southside you prick.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Good show Tom, but sorry you've had such shit from the police.

Don't know about the legalities of them originally planning to let you go, then arresting you, and also the changes now in charges, but yeah I'd get some advice about that.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Fuck off southside you prick.


 

Fuck you too.

Its an opinion that I and most of the country hold so ner.

Its true, most of the trouble makers looked and sounded how I'd imagine them to (Students)

The real protesters were the thousands of people who behaved themselves, not a few student types with a spray can of no hope in thier hands.


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I've not read this thread since page 15 (on 40 post per page) and I'm not sure if/when I'll get around to it, I'm just going add my personal story for now and one link, apologies if the link has been posted.
> 
> I took part in the ukuncut actions on oxford street, where we closed every tax avoider, there were probably low thousands of people there but I really don't know how to tell - oxford circus was pretty rammed, anyone know how many were in the kettle there in 2001? similar number there I reckon, though it's hard to tell as the trojan horse was there taking up space..
> At 3:30 followed the green umbrellas to fortnum and mason where we peacefully occupied.
> ...


 
okay just to clarify, it's the *criminal justice and public order act 1994*?  S68 is aggravated trespass (or disruptive tresspas if you like) 

s68(1) outlines the nature of the offence which is: 
_A person commits the offence of aggravated trespass if he trespasses on land [this could be inside a building] and, in relation to any lawful activity which persons are engaging in or are about to engage in on that or adjoining land , does there anything which is intended by him to have the effect—

(a)of intimidating those persons or any of them so as to deter them or any of them from engaging in that activity,

(b)of obstructing that activity, or

(c)of disrupting that activity.
_

s68(3) is just the sentencing guideline

You _can _be arrested for something and charged with something else but having seen the video i'd say you won't make it to trial. And yes unquestionably you should sue the police.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 28, 2011)

Edited for you



southside said:


> What good can smashing windows lighting a few fires, spraying anarchy signs, writing Klass War in silver paint, breaking into a toff shop and being leary towards the police do?
> 
> It seems there will always be idiots at demo's.
> 
> I can't help but think it's down to having the voice of a mute mouse and being agressive towards buildings by smashing and spraying is an attention whores trick.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Fuck you too.
> 
> Its an opinion that I and most of the country hold so ner.
> 
> ...


 
'So ner'


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

Duplicitous Dibble in Fortnum & Masons. "We're letting you go". Video.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/mar/28/fortnum-mason-protesters-uk-uncut-video?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Fuck you too.
> 
> Its an opinion that I and most of the country hold so ner.
> 
> ...


 
I was one of the 'real protesters' by your definition and good on the 'trouble makers' imo. If it had of just been the TUC march then nobody would have given a fuck. Resistance was demonstrated - win.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Fuck you too.
> 
> Its an opinion that I and most of the country hold so ner.
> 
> ...



Can you explain how you differentiate between real and not real protestors.....


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 28, 2011)

Blank him, he's trolling


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I was one of the 'real protesters' by your definition and good on the 'trouble makers' imo. If it had of just been the TUC march then nobody would have given a fuck. Resistance was demonstrated - win.


 
In principle I love the fact it makes for an exciting news reel but sadly I don't think any marching on London what ever the intent, the government wont listen because the Tories are hell bent on their agenda.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> In principle I love the fact it makes for an exciting news reel but sadly I don't think any marching on London what ever the intent, the government wont listen because the Tories are hell bent on their agenda.


 
But that's not what you said.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

twentythreedom said:


> Blank him, he's trolling


 
What?

It's ok to march but to smash things is idiotic.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> In principle I love the fact it makes for an exciting news reel but sadly I don't think any marching on London what ever the intent, the government wont listen because the Tories are hell bent on their agenda.


 
They were hell bent on the poll tax too


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> But that's not what you said.



Smashing shit is dumb and the majority of the said smashers were quite young looking, under 25.


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> They were hell bent on the poll tax too


 
with a bigger majority and better mandate


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> They were hell bent on the poll tax too


 
So they renamed it but we're still getting shafted every year with the council tax.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

All the government have responded to the march with is "We hear you but we don't give a fuck"


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> In principle I love the fact it makes for an exciting news reel but sadly I don't think any marching on London what ever the intent, the government wont listen because the Tories are hell bent on their agenda.


The cold cynical part of me thinks you're right, but it's important to make a statement and people will draw strength from that. There was a really good turnout on Sat and not just from the unions.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> All the government have responded to the march with is "We hear you but we don't give a fuck"


 
Oh no!!


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> The cold cynical part of me thinks you're right, but it's important to make a statement and people will draw strength from that. There was a really good turnout on Sat and not just from the unions.


 
I know, it was amazing to see the numbers.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Oh no!!


 
lulz


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I know, it was amazing to see the numbers.


 

Do you think there is no benefit in showing people united against the current government - putting aside the idea that the government would take note and change accordingly?

Its amazing to see the numbers and its amazing to be part of it - to know that you and all those people out there from ALL over the country, from every walk of life have something in common, something to say and a want to do something (even if youre not sure what) about it?

Its easy to cast it peaceful protest aside because its not directly beneficial to the cause and its easy to dismiss direct action as pointless and in effective but there is a bloody great middle ground in there that could cause a lot of grief to those that don't want it but deserve it.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 28, 2011)

Actually, the cold cynical part of me thinks the govt sat around and had a good chuckle this morning, and decided what bits to cut next.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Smashing shit is dumb and the majority of the said smashers were quite young looking, under 25.


 
Again that's also not what you said above. Whether ypu agree or npot those who 'smashed shit up' were real protestors. That you might not agree with their methods doesn't make them 'not real'.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> So they renamed it but we're still getting shafted every year with the council tax.


 
Council tax is shit but it isn't the community charge you weapon


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Fuck you too.
> 
> Its an opinion that I and most of the country hold so ner.



I love people who're soapy enough to post their unsupported assumptions. 

How do you know that "most of the country" hold such a point of view, oh hero of the working class?



> Its true, most of the trouble makers looked and sounded how I'd imagine them to (Students)
> 
> The real protesters were the thousands of people who behaved themselves, not a few student types with a spray can of no hope in thier hands.


 
Many of the "student types" you refer to are firmly in the "mature student" age group.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> What?
> 
> It's ok to march but to smash things is idiotic.


 
Go read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. It's a sound tactic to cause your enemy to divert resources, and has been for 3,000 years.

Me, I'm always grateful to hotheads on demos, because they act to draw the police's resources away from focal points into the periphery.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> So they renamed it but we're still getting shafted every year with the council tax.


 
Council Tax was at least slightly less devastating than Poll Tax, because it meant that households on the breadline, earning just enough not to get CTB, only had to pay one sum, not a sum for each adult in a residence.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Go read "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu. It's a sound tactic to cause your enemy to divert resources, and has been for 3,000 years.
> 
> Me, I'm always grateful to hotheads on demos, because they act to draw the police's resources away from focal points into the periphery.



Well you must be right, where are you at the moment 35 posts a day? 40?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Well you must be right, where are you at the moment 35 posts a day? 40?


 
i'm not certain that rational conversation's one of your strong points. your post has no obvious connection with vp's.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> All the government have responded to the march with is "We hear you but we don't give a fuck"


 
All those student marches achieved nothing either...oh wait, there's been a partial u-turn on EMA. It's not a satisfactory u-turn, but it's proof that your "don't give a fuck" hypothesis is flawed insofar as sustained political pressure has been shown to have an effect.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> All those student marches achieved nothing either...oh wait, there's been a partial u-turn on EMA. It's not a satisfactory u-turn, but it's proof that your "don't give a fuck" hypothesis is flawed insofar as sustained political pressure has been shown to have an effect.


 
it's the sustained bit which is important.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> How do you know that "most of the country" hold such a point of view, oh hero of the working class?


 
I doubt any of the smashers were working class, may be they're just angry at mummy and daddy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Well you must be right, where are you at the moment 35 posts a day? 40?


 
Playing the man, not the ball. Typical.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Many of the "student types" you refer to are firmly in the "mature student" age group.


 

25 year olds can be classed as mature students  I'm so glad you two are in agreement


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the sustained bit which is important.


 
Quite. Anyone thinking that a march or two will set everything aright is living in Bizarro-world, but at least we have a (minimal) victory that can be used to light a fire under further protests.

It'd be nice if all problems could be solved with a single march (or a single well-placed bullet, even), mind.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I doubt any of the smashers were working class, may be they're just angry at mummy and daddy.


 
Where is your evidence? and what is the relevance of that statement?

So what if most of the student protesters werent working class?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I doubt any of the smashers were working class, may be they're just angry at mummy and daddy.


 
More hot air. Your doubts are meaningless. They're unsupported assumptions that you can't back up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> 25 year olds can be classed as mature students  I'm so glad you two are in agreement


 
They can? 

I thought it was 30, but then again, last time I checked was back in the mid 1980s!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> They can?
> 
> I thought it was 30, but then again, last time I checked was back in the mid 1980s!


 
over 21 i thought.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I doubt any of the smashers were working class, may be they're just angry at mummy and daddy.


 
yes. i think i'm right in my conclusion (see post 1190)


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> More hot air. Your doubts are meaningless. They're unsupported assumptions that you can't back up.



I just don't agree with violence, smashing stuff and defaceing monuments thats all.

I think they may change their minds over some issues that seem to be elitest, like the half baked uturn on creating a rich poor devide within university education.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> Where is your evidence? and what is the relevance of that statement?
> 
> So what if most of the student protesters werent working class?


 
Smells like the old insinuation about most "anarchists" or "violent types" being "trust fund kids", or students whose parents will buy them out of trouble. I remember the _Evening Standard_ trying to push that line about the aggro at Wapping.

It's just as bollocks now as it was 25 years ago, mind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I just don't agree with violence, smashing stuff and defaceing monuments thats all.
> 
> I think they may change their minds over some issues that seem to be elitest, like the half baked uturn on creating a rich poor devide within university education.


 
you don't like logical progression or debate either.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I just don't agree with violence, smashing stuff and defaceing monuments thats all.



As anyone who understands political strategy will tell you, sometimes shocking acts serve a purpose, as does violence.

BTW, it's only "violence", when it's "us" assaulting symbols of *their* power. They call it "policing" when it's their paid servants assaulting us.  



> I think they may change their minds over some issues that seem to be elitest, like the half baked uturn on creating a rich poor devide within university education.


 
So you've now changed your original stance to agree with mine, once you were backed into a corner by having your nose rubbed in an example of your being wrong?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

Stoaty seems to have morphed into something actually resembling a human being while posting on this thread, perhaps he could be persuaded to mentor southside in the steps to the epiphany.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Smells like the old insinuation about most "anarchists" or "violent types" being "trust fund kids", or students whose parents will buy them out of trouble. I remember the _Evening Standard_ trying to push that line about the aggro at Wapping.
> 
> It's just as bollocks now as it was 25 years ago, mind.


 
Don't talk crap VP,

Most people in the print there before it went automated were working class and that was a working class demo if ever I saw one.

Most people I heard on the news had perfect stuck ups accents they were student types. 

Anarchists desperate for a cause more like.  they don'y give a fuck about the reason, all they need is the spotlight and they will be there what ever the calling.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> So you've now changed your original stance to agree with mine, once you were backed into a corner by having your nose rubbed in an example of your being wrong?


 
Not quite, they can't be seen as totalitarian for the rich now can they.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I just don't agree with violence, smashing stuff and defaceing monuments thats all.


 
I don't agree with property damage either.

A few political assassinations and bankers hanging from a few lamp posts and I might get interested.

<shrugs>


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Don't talk crap VP,
> 
> Most people in the print there before it went automated were working class and that was a working class demo if ever I saw one.
> 
> ...


i think the contrast you're trying to draw, to tease out, is that you wouldn't be there 'what ever the calling' because you don't have the courage of your convictions.

oh - and OBVIOUSLY all students are stuck up


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> As anyone who understands political strategy will tell you, sometimes shocking acts serve a purpose, as does violence.
> 
> BTW, it's only "violence", when it's "us" assaulting symbols of *their* power. They call it "policing" when it's their paid servants assaulting us.
> 
> ...



Yes, Shocking acts and violence do sometimes serve a purpose, but that's rarely a justification in itself for indulging in them. The smashers on Saturday served no useful purpose whatsoever and there was fuck all justification for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Yes, Shocking acts and violence do sometimes serve a purpose, but that's rarely a justification in itself for indulging in them. The smashers on Saturday served no useful purpose whatsoever and there was fuck all justification for it.


 
says you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Don't talk crap VP,
> 
> Most people in the print there before it went automated were working class and that was a working class demo if ever I saw one.
> 
> ...


 

ergo, y'ken fuck all


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Most people I heard on the news had perfect stuck ups accents they were student types.
> 
> Anarchists desperate for a cause more like.


 
So if youre alright off yourself you cant have a justifiable reason for protest? Is that what youre saying?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Stoaty seems to have morphed into something actually resembling a human being while posting on this thread, perhaps he could be persuaded to mentor southside in the steps to the epiphany.


 
It's kind of like Zachor but in reverse.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think the contrast you're trying to draw, to tease out, is that you wouldn't be there 'what ever the calling' because you don't have the courage of your convictions.


 
I wouln't go for the agro but I'd go to any peaceful protest/march.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

having a "stuck up accent" doesn't necessarily mean anything.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Yes, Shocking acts and violence do sometimes serve a purpose, but that's rarely a justification in itself for indulging in them. The smashers on Saturday served no useful purpose whatsoever and there was fuck all justification for it.


 
Of course they did... anti-capitalism, anti-tax avoidance, war on symbols of class.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> says you.



Aye, says me and anyone else in the world outside of the protest forums of U75. If you're going to go around smashing stuff up then you'd better have a good reason for it and I haven't heard one yet.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Don't talk crap VP,
> 
> Most people in the print there before it went automated were working class and that was a working class demo if ever I saw one.
> 
> ...


 
You're not even reading what VP is saying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I wouln't go for the agro but I'd go to any peaceful protest/march.


 
i hope you wouldn't because i cannot conceive of the cause to which you would be a credit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Aye, says me and anyone else in the world outside of the protest forums of U75. If you're going to go around smashing stuff up then you'd better have a good reason for it and I haven't heard one yet.


 
no, what you mean is you haven't heard a reason which sounds good to you. which is a rather different thing.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> So if youre alright off yourself you cant have a justifiable reason for protest? Is that what youre saying?


 
No,

But the spotlight is a wonderfull thing and creates a form of art under certain circumstances.

Did the anarchists really go to the march in support of showing disdane towards the cuts? or was it for their little itsy bit of tinternet fame?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i hope you wouldn't because i cannot conceive of the cause to which you would be a credit.


 
"What do we want.... er, I'm not entirely sure at the moment, when do we want it... now"


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

the 'ain' part you fucked up is from anglo-french of back in the day.

You frothers move hand from cock to keyboard so swiftly you forget to use a spell checker.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, what you mean is you haven't heard a reason which sounds good to you. which is a rather different thing.



I haven't heard _any_ attempts at justifying it as it happens, except stephj introducing the word "war" into the equation, deciding to call something a war doesn't automatically give you the right to go around smashing stuff up.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i hope you wouldn't because i cannot conceive of the cause to which you would be a credit.


 
Theres no credit for mindless criminal damage and violence.

Its a discredit.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> No,
> 
> But the spotlight is a wonderfull thing and creates a form of art under certain circumstances.
> 
> Did the anarchists really go to the march in support of showing disdane towards the cuts? or was it for their little itsy bit of tinternet fame?





> The important point is that whilst the aim of local protests is to draw people in to a movement as something to build from, national protests need to be built to. The sheer weight of effort required to build up numbers that means something needs to come out of them other than a passive march from A to B and some speeches at the end. Break-away marches and direct action as an expression of class anger are more than justified in that respect.



http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2011/03/class-war-on-streets-of-london.html


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Don't talk crap VP,
> 
> Most people in the print there before it went automated were working class and that was a working class demo if ever I saw one.



Learn to read, there's a good person.
I said that the _Evening Standard_ *reported* that those involved in violence were anarchist types with middle-class accents.

I also know that it was bullshit because I was there several times when aggro kicked off. 

So, how about you don't *post* crap unrelated to what I've actually written, hmm? 



> Most people I heard on the news had perfect stuck ups accents they were student types.



More bull. Just because someone speaks clearly doesn't mean they're a student type. It *could* mean that they work on one end of a phone line most of the day, that they're a teacher or a civil or public servant.



> Anarchists desperate for a cause more like.  they don'y give a fuck about the reason, all they need is the spotlight and they will be there what ever the calling.


 
You don't even know that they were anarchists. I try to give you enough credit that I don't immediately believe you're soapy enough to believe what the media tells you, but you're coming across like you've swallowed the media's bullshit whole.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> http://truth-reason-liberty.blogspot.com/2011/03/class-war-on-streets-of-london.html


 
Class anger?

Run by stuck ups for stuck ups.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Not quite, they can't be seen as totalitarian for the rich now can they.


 
Depends how gullible the media-viewing public are. I'm pretty sanguine that people won't be fooled.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Class anger?
> 
> Run by stuck ups for stuck ups.



Well the ruling class are waging a class war on the working class yes.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Learn to read, there's a good person.
> I said that the _Evening Standard_ *reported* that those involved in violence were anarchist types with middle-class accents.
> 
> I also know that it was bullshit because I was there several times when aggro kicked off.
> ...


 
Fuck the media who sensationolise every single doom ridden story.


I'm being honest from my own point of view, smashing stuff is naff and isn't justifiable no matter how you ham it up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> I don't agree with property damage either.
> 
> A few political assassinations and bankers hanging from a few lamp posts and I might get interested.
> 
> <shrugs>


 
I often find it depressing that we're lumbered, _vis a vis_ the history of political assassination in the UK, with our last assassinated Prime Minister having such a dickish old-fashioned name. Modernisation is needed!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Yes, Shocking acts and violence do sometimes serve a purpose, but that's rarely a justification in itself for indulging in them. The smashers on Saturday served no useful purpose whatsoever and there was fuck all justification for it.


 
Actually, that's something that can only be properly judged from a perspective of fairly distanced hindsight. To blithely claim it "served no useful purpose" is an opinion, no more and no less. For all either of us know, cumulative property damage might trigger pressure from the business sector on government.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Class anger?
> 
> Run by stuck ups for stuck ups.


 
Is the beano _still_ going?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Rubber fight!!!!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Class anger?
> 
> Run by stuck ups for stuck ups.



Where in there does it say he's stuck-up (whatever that is)?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> It's kind of like Zachor but in reverse.


 
But without (hopefully! ) the wish to be dominated by large women and the fantasies about having sex with black women.


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

This Andrew Hertford character. 

It's Spymaster without the wit, non?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Actually, that's something that can only be properly judged from a perspective of fairly distanced hindsight. To blithely claim it "served no useful purpose" is an opinion, no more and no less. For all either of us know, cumulative property damage might trigger pressure from the business sector on government.


 
It did serve a useful purpose, it allowed the right-wing media to distract all attention away from any legitimate point the protesters may have had.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Where in there does it say he's stuck-up (whatever that is)?


 
Its another internet wannabe twonk.

Degree educated, privileged background, every thing on a silver platter, speaks with a plumb in his mouth etc etc.

Daddy must have upset him or he is angry that he's just another minion and wants his fifteen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Aye, says me and anyone else in the world outside of the protest forums of U75.



Ah, another poster whose posts make implicit claims about how "the world outside" thinks.



> If you're going to go around smashing stuff up then you'd better have a good reason for it and I haven't heard one yet.


 
Why would I, for example, bother to give you any reasoning when your attitude makes it obvious that you'd at best listen with only one ear? You've already made your mind up, going by your previous writings.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> No,
> 
> But the spotlight is a wonderfull thing and creates a form of art under certain circumstances.
> 
> Did the anarchists really go to the march in support of showing disdane towards the cuts? or was it for their little itsy bit of tinternet fame?



You tell me treacle. maybe it was A BIT OF BOTH *gasp* Did any of the peaceful marchers want a but of the limelight or are they let off?

Did you say you were on the march btw??


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Its another internet wannabe twonk.
> 
> Degree educated, privileged background, every thing on a silver platter, speaks with a plumb in his mouth etc etc.
> 
> Daddy must have upset him or he is angry that he's just another minion and whats his fifteen.



You didn't read anything on that website, did you? But you're determined to stick with _what you've made up_ because it suits you better.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> You didn't read anything on that website, did you? But you're determined to stick with _what you've made up_ because it suits you better.


 
Prove it clever dick.

Prove I'm wrong.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

Southside doesn't read, or even attempt to learn. That wouldn't be so bad if he had the courage of at least some of his convictions. But he hasn't got those either.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 28, 2011)

revlon said:


> okay just to clarify, it's the *criminal justice and public order act 1994*?  S68 is aggravated trespass (or disruptive tresspas if you like)
> 
> s68(1) outlines the nature of the offence which is:
> _A person commits the offence of aggravated trespass if he trespasses on land [this could be inside a building] and, in relation to any lawful activity which persons are engaging in or are about to engage in on that or adjoining land , does there anything which is intended by him to have the effect—
> ...



Ah ok, cheers for clarifying that for me, I was starting to wonder whether I was actually being charged with aggravated trespass, but tbh the actual naming of the offence sounds less serious so I'll stick to that when talking to my employer 
I am thinking of suing the police, legal advice pending of course, if I have a case I will definitely do it and put any compo into a solidarity fund for protestors, as I'm sure everyone else will


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

all fuckin avee yoo! prove me rong...scush me luv I fink you are gorgeouse

yeah fighht me!

Go bed southside. And take your salty rags with you please.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> You tell me treacle. maybe it was A BIT OF BOTH *gasp* Did any of the peaceful marchers want a but of the limelight or are they let off?
> 
> Did you say you were on the march btw??


 
No I didn't go, I was in trouble with my car and had to flush the engine and fit a new timing chain and tensioner, it flys now and no more noise from the cam chain hitting the rocker cover.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> all fuckin avee yoo! prove me rong...scush me luv I fink you are gorgeouse
> 
> yeah fighht me!
> 
> Go bed southside. And take your salty rags with you please.




HAHAHA!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Prove it clever dick.
> 
> Prove I'm wrong.



Ah, no. You've made the claims about him being 





> degree educated, privileged background, every thing on a silver platter, speaks with a plumb in his mouth etc etc.



So _you_ prove it. Or, with all due respect, run along.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Southside doesn't read, or even attempt to learn. That wouldn't be so bad if he had the courage of at least some of his convictions. But he hasn't got those either.


 
I think I'm right.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Actually, that's something that can only be properly judged from a perspective of fairly distanced hindsight. To blithely claim it "served no useful purpose" is an opinion, no more and no less. For all either of us know, cumulative property damage might trigger pressure from the business sector on government.



So let's go around smashing things up because we _might_ be able to justify it one day. Ffs. 

And what, cumulative business pressure on government to pursue less right wing policies because a few shop fronts got done over??


----------



## past caring (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I think I'm right.



So do most scabby cunts, to be fair.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> I think I'm right.


 
I'll take that as a maybe.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Ah, no. You've made the claims about him being
> 
> So _you_ prove it. Or, with all due respect, run along.


 
No one can track the cunt down, tbh he isn't worthy of me doing a Sherlock Holmes just to find a specky internet nerd, I've bigger fish to fry.


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 28, 2011)

http://libcom.org/library/letter-uk-uncutters-violent-minority

a letter to ukuncut from the Solidarity Federation.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 28, 2011)

s prats I assume


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> No one can track the cunt down, tbh he isn't worthy of me doing a Sherlock Holmes just to find a specky internet nerd, I've bigger fish to fry.



He gives his name and his background on his website, you silly mare.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> He gives his name and his background on his website, you silly mare.


 southside's not the brightest


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Fuck the media who sensationolise every single doom ridden story.


 
So you will no longer use things you have seen or read from the media as evidence? Pull the other one, its got facking bells on mate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> You're not even reading what VP is saying.


 
C'mon, Steph. It wouldn't be a reply from southside if it actually addressed my point, would it?


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ah, another poster whose posts make implicit claims about how "the world outside" thinks.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would I, for example, bother to give you any reasoning when your attitude makes it obvious that you'd at best listen with only one ear? You've already made your mind up, going by your previous writings.



Ok VP, indulge me and pretend I'm some bright and fresh faced kid from the sticks who wants to get involved in fighting the cuts. Explain to me why smashing up a few shop fronts could be a useful thing to do.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 28, 2011)

past caring said:


> This Andrew Hertford character.
> 
> It's Spymaster without the wit, non?


 
Fucking ouch.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 28, 2011)

stephj said:


> Well the ruling class are waging a class war on the working class yes.



They are indeed.



> "There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning."



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

There's a big fucking issue here,

I know lets go to Oxford Street and smash some windows ffs.

If that isn't dumb then fuck me sideways.

Anyway I'm tired now, its very draining posting your opinion when it goes against the grain on an anarchists forum.

What amazes me, its a bit like saying I have no talent.........

I know, I'll become an anarchist and smash a few windows., that'll make a difference, yeah right.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> http://libcom.org/library/letter-uk-uncutters-violent-minority
> 
> a letter to ukuncut from the Solidarity Federation.


 
Is this the typical 'big state' anarchist thing of turning up causing trouble then letting all the clueless students and middle-class rich kids get nicked?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> It did serve a useful purpose, it allowed the right-wing media to distract all attention away from any legitimate point the protesters may have had.


 
That would have happened anyway, and if something hadn't happened, it's evens something would have been manufactured. Lightbulbs filled with ammonia, anyone?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Ok VP, indulge me and pretend I'm some bright and fresh faced kid from the sticks who wants to get involved in fighting the cuts. Explain to me why smashing up a few shop fronts could be a useful thing to do.


 
i) The BBC preferentially covers protests with a little aggro.*

ii) Any decent-sized protest is going to involve a wee bit of aggro at some point from those 'bad elements'.  The media will tend to talk about a 'naughty minority', but this implies a 'reasonable majority'.

iii) This gives you the opportunity to put your point across.


* - not just the Beeb, mind


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 28, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> http://libcom.org/library/letter-uk-uncutters-violent-minority
> 
> a letter to ukuncut from the Solidarity Federation.


 
That's pretty good


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Is this the typical 'big state' anarchist thing of turning up causing trouble then letting all the clueless students and middle-class rich kids get nicked?


 
Fuck off moon ffs.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> Anyway I'm tired now, its very draining posting your opinion when it goes against the grain on an *anarchists forum.*


 


Which other forum are you posting on?

I get that explains a few things if we don't have your full attention...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Is this the typical 'big state' anarchist thing of turning up causing trouble then letting all the clueless students and middle-class rich kids get nicked?



Are these the people you said you would support?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> There's a big fucking issue here,
> 
> I know lets go to Oxford Street and smash some windows ffs.
> 
> ...


 
Why do you think the far-left hasn't got anywhere? On a good day they manage to smash a few windows, most of the time they sit around on web forums wanking about the last time the did an 'action' or debating obscure political theory.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> There's a big fucking issue here,
> 
> I know lets go to Oxford Street and smash some windows ffs.
> 
> ...


 
How would you make a difference then?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> That would have happened anyway, and if something hadn't happened, it's evens something would have been manufactured. Lightbulbs filled with ammonia, anyone?


 
I thought Lightbulbs filled with ammonia was a euphemism for bottles of piss.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> That would have happened anyway, and if something hadn't happened, it's evens something would have been manufactured. Lightbulbs filled with ammonia, anyone?


 
BBC were on about petrol bombs on Sat night.  None to be seen of course.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Why do you think the far-left hasn't got anywhere? On a good day they manage to smash a few windows, most of the time they sit around on web forums wanking about the last time the did an 'action' or debating obscure political theory.


 
Oh to be a discordian


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> So let's go around smashing things up because we _might_ be able to justify it one day. Ffs.



Not for the first time, I'll have to ask you to not put words in my mouth, thanks all the same.



> And what, cumulative business pressure on government to pursue less right wing policies because a few shop fronts got done over??


 
No, because the *specific* nature of the attacks on *specific* businesses that symbolise a wider problem (note how well-targeted much of the vandalism has been) is drawing unwanted attention to those businesses.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Are these the people you said you would support?


 
What people?


----------



## audiotech (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Why do you think the far-left hasn't got anywhere? On a good day they manage to smash a few windows, most of the time they sit around on web forums wanking about the last time the did an 'action' or debating obscure political theory.



Don't forget those preparing for a massacre in the May elections.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Why do you think the far-left hasn't got anywhere? On a good day they manage to smash a few windows, most of the time they sit around on web forums wanking about the last time the did an 'action' or debating obscure political theory.


 
Its an education on here though.


But useless irl.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Why do you think the far-left hasn't got anywhere? On a good day they manage to smash a few windows, most of the time they sit around on web forums wanking about the last time the did an 'action' or debating obscure political theory.


 
They get about as far as the not so left with less smashed windows. lets all just forget about it - you cant change things people, youre wasting your time.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Are these the people you said you would support?


 
Yes I'll support anyone who gets made a victim of police mistreatment. The plod seemed pretty laid back about the whole affair from an outsiders point of view. I was arguing with some people saying how stupid May's call for new police powers were though. Typical reactionary shite from the Home Sec.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Are these the people you said you would support?


 
I thought he said he'd defend peaceful protesters. 

Moon you used to be an anarchist. What has amazed me throughout all of your political "journey" is how little empathy you now have for people who used to be your mates ??


----------



## peterkro (Mar 28, 2011)

^^ as opposed to your cutting edge analysis which say's what?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Ok VP, indulge me and pretend I'm some bright and fresh faced kid from the sticks who wants to get involved in fighting the cuts. Explain to me why smashing up a few shop fronts could be a useful thing to do.


 
Well, assuming that a bright kid from the sticks would need it explained to them, see my post #1272.


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Ah ok, cheers for clarifying that for me, I was starting to wonder whether I was actually being charged with aggravated trespass, but tbh the actual naming of the offence sounds less serious so I'll stick to that when talking to my employer
> I am thinking of suing the police, legal advice pending of course, if I have a case I will definitely do it and put any compo into a solidarity fund for protestors, as I'm sure everyone else will


 
no worries. I reckon you'll do absolutely fine out of this. There's so many elements to the  offence that haven't been established and proving 'intent' is always a difficult job for the prosecution, plus the video footage you got pretty much everything on your side. 

Good luck on the 12th, let us know how it goes.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Yes I'll support anyone who gets made a victim of police mistreatment. The plod seemed pretty laid back about the whole affair from an outsiders point of view. I was arguing with some people saying how stupid May's call for new police powers were though. Typical reactionary shite from the Home Sec.


 
Is this the new party line?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> I thought he said he'd defend peaceful protesters.
> 
> Moon you used to be an anarchist. What has amazed me throughout all of your political "journey" is how little empathy you now have for people who used to be your mates ??



He's never been an anarchist.  Posh kid, playing at rebelling.  Always been a liberal.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> What people?



These people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/mar/28/fortnum-mason-protesters-uk-uncut-video?CMP=twt_gu



moon23 said:


> I do think there is a need for some cuts, so I can't support such a general protest against cuts generally. However I wish everyone who attends tomorrow a good day, and hope they don't fall foul of the met's bully boys. Even though I disagree with your aims I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Don't forget those preparing for a massacre in the May elections.


 
Fair enough, I have respect for anyone who is prepared to try and change things through the ballot box.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

Out of interest Moonie, how posh are you? Public school?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Out of interest Moonie, how posh are you? Public school?


 
Got a scholarship.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I thought Lightbulbs filled with ammonia was a euphemism for bottles of piss.


 
No, the police claimed that lightbulbs filled with ammonia were thrown at them.

Piss contains very little ammonia (about 3% IIRC), so is a lot less harmful than ammonia.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> BBC were on about petrol bombs on Sat night.  None to be seen of course.


 
Now there's a surprise. Mythical snooker balls, mythical lightbulbs and now mythical petrol bombs.

What next, mythical zip-guns?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> He's never been an anarchist.  Posh kid, playing at rebelling.  Always been a liberal.


 
Yea real posh with a single parent working mother. Moon was born with a silver spoon his mouth.


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I thought Lightbulbs filled with ammonia was a euphemism for bottles of piss.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I will be the first to speak out if I see any evidence of police trying to surpress your right to protest.





> I was arrested and charged with aggravated trespass and I have been banned from the City of Westminster between 27th April and 2nd May.



http://hellotenzin.posterous.com/on-being-arrested-for-occupying-fortnum-mason


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Is this the new party line?


 
I don't fucking know, it's what I think.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Yea real posh with a single parent working mother. Moon was born with a silver spoon his mouth.


 
You're way more middle class than me.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Fair enough, I have respect for anyone who is prepared to try and change things through the ballot box.



The BNP?


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

Why would moon's opinion be made invalid by his background, anyway?

I know there is a lot of vehement disagreement with his opinions but there's a lot to be said for playing the ball rather than the man.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I don't fucking know, it's what I think.


 
not dead yet?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> Why would moon's opinion be made invalid by his background, anyway?
> 
> I know there is a lot of vehement disagreement with his opinions but there's a lot to be said for playing the ball rather than the man.


 
Just a convenient stick to beat him with.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not for the first time, I'll have to ask you to not put words in my mouth, thanks all the same.
> 
> 
> 
> No, because the *specific* nature of the attacks on *specific* businesses that symbolise a wider problem (note how well-targeted much of the vandalism has been) is drawing unwanted attention to those businesses.



But it's most effective in drawing attention when it's non violent action, like the excellent Fortnum and Mason occupation. Violent action is more likely to only bring detestation of the perpetrators and push the real issues involved aside.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Just a convenient stick to beat him with.


One he brought to the party himself. He can't moan.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, the police claimed that lightbulbs filled with ammonia were thrown at them.
> 
> Piss contains very little ammonia (about 3% IIRC), so is a lot less harmful than ammonia.



Is there any actual evidence for this,as a humble electrician I know light bulbs are essentially a vacuum,how the fuck do you inject ammonia into a glass vacuum with out destroying it's structure,it would be no different than ammonia in any other container,a plastic bag or an McDonald's polystyrene container for instance.(of course ammonia would probably melt polystyrene)


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> How would you make a difference then?


 
By donating some money to the Red Cross.

Its a tough question, I don't have any answers but as VP said earlier about drawing attention? theres many ways of doing it for example a lovin outside fortnam and masson or candle lit vidule outside Topshop would have drawn attention, you don't need to burn and destroy. 

Look to Gandhi, he made a huge impact and never raised a fist to anybody ever.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

There is no evidence. Next!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

I thought incandescent bulbs were mostly some kind of noble gas at not much below 1 Bar.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> http://hellotenzin.posterous.com/on-being-arrested-for-occupying-fortnum-mason


 
They committed aggravated trespass which is a criminal act and got nicked for it. I'm not a fan of the CJA 1994 but I'm still yet to see an evidence of the police suppressing anyone's right to protest. Tricking them into getting nicked was pretty low. Lesson is police lie too.


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 28, 2011)

course there isn't, as it's obviously bollocks!


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

southside said:


> By donating some money to the Red Cross.
> 
> Its a tough question, I don't have any answers but as VP said earlier about drawing attention? theres many ways of doing it for example a lovin outside fortnam and masson or candle lit vidule outside Topshop would have drawn attention, you don't need to burn and destroy.
> 
> Look to Gandhi, he made a huge impact and never raised a fist to anybody ever.


 

Or like 250,000 people (at least) walking the streets of london to protest in a non-violent manner. You said yourself it was amazing to see, so many people united. Now what? They just keep doing that?

You are focussing on the minority. What was so wrong about what happened at fortnum and mason - compared to your suggestion? what about all the shops on oxford street that took a beating to their saturday profits but sustained no obvious damage to their shop windows?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> You're way more middle class than me.


 
Your camera is flasher than my £35 Argus point and click though


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Yea real posh with a single parent working mother. Moon was born with a silver spoon his mouth.


 
What was her job?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

audiotech said:


> The BNP?


 
I respect the BNP more than the EDL for trying to get elected. I wouldn't say I respect them as people though.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> Why would moon's opinion be made invalid by his background, anyway?
> 
> I know there is a lot of vehement disagreement with his opinions but there's a lot to be said for playing the ball rather than the man.


 
Might explain why he hates the working class, the poor and the vulnerable like.

And why he is such a dick.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I don't fucking know, it's what I think.



Yeah just wondered, since there seems to be a lot of distancing going on at the moment


----------



## nick h. (Mar 28, 2011)

*On Newsnight Now*

Story about the demo - a suggestion that the arrests of UKUncut in Fortnums were politically motivated. A chief inspector was filmed at the scene telling legal observers that they weren't violent so wouldn't be arrested! Just before 130+ were...

Hopefully it will be on iPlayer.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Fair enough, I have respect for anyone who is prepared to try and change things through the ballot box.


 
Like Lib Dem voters


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> What was her job?


 
White Collar Clerical. Lower Middle Class or C1


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I'm not a fan of the CJA 1994 but I'm still yet to see an *evidence of the police suppressing anyone's right to protest.*



This woman has been banned from London for a week in the future in case she misbehaves, i.e. sits down in another posh grocery shop.


----------



## strung out (Mar 28, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Story about the demo - a suggestion that the arrests of UKUncut in Fortnums were politically motivated. A chief inspector was filmed at the scene telling legal observers that they weren't violent so wouldn't be arrested! Just before 130+ were...
> 
> Hopefully it will be on iPlayer.


 
a link to the vid is on the guardian website. posted higher up the thread somewhere i think.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> Like Lib Dem voters


 
Seeing as i'm a Lib Dem who spent their evening writing lovely hand written envelopes addressed to electorate


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> White Collar Clerical. Lower Middle Class or C1


 
Why do you want to make your mum poorer?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> This woman has been banned from London for a week in the future in case she misbehaves, i.e. sits down in another posh grocery shop.


 
Seeing as there are no forthcoming protests this bail conditions seems pretty OTT.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

Why are the BNP more worthy of respect because they're trying to get elected?


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2011)

nick h. said:


> Story about the demo - a suggestion that the arrests of UKUncut in Fortnums were politically motivated. A chief inspector was filmed at the scene telling legal observers that they weren't violent so wouldn't be arrested! Just before 130+ were...


 
of course it was politically motivated. looks like a two purpose operation: info gathering on ukuncut, and to put them out of action on the royal wedding.

i'm willing to bet real money that the charges are dropped between the wedding and the planned court date.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Why do you want to make your mum poorer?


 
I don't want to make anyone poorer. I honestly believe reducing the deficit is going to help stop our economy going down the pan like Portugal. I've had to take a reduction in working hours and a two year pay freeze too, it's not like I'm not feeling some of the pain like everyone else, although thankfully I still have a job.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> I thought incandescent bulbs were mostly some kind of noble gas at not much below 1 Bar.



Yes you're right, but how do you inject something into a less than 1 Bar container without an ingress of gravity forced air,it will destroy the structure.I assume your familiar with light bulbs (incandescent)?can you think of any way to do this?


----------



## gabi (Mar 28, 2011)

Total lulz at the idiot the hilariously named uk uncut put up for interview on newsnight. Surely that was a windup. Jesus. Was she fucking stoned?


----------



## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> Or like 250,000 people (at least) walking the streets of london to protest in a non-violent manner. You said yourself it was amazing to see, so many people united. Now what? They just keep doing that?
> 
> You are focussing on the minority. What was so wrong about what happened at fortnum and mason - compared to your suggestion? what about all the shops on oxford street that took a beating to their saturday profits but sustained no obvious damage to their shop windows?


 
There's an econimic cost to protest, there's no need to smash stuff or break into anywhere but they are the most obvious direct actions to take and there's an army of people willing to do it because of its ability to generate coverage and it gets more media attention.

So there you have it, I don't agree with the smashing and violence because it draws focus away from the real issues imo.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> I thought incandescent bulbs were mostly some kind of noble gas at not much below 1 Bar.



Yes you're right, but how do you inject something into a less than 1 Bar container without an ingress of gravity forced air,it will destroy the structure.I assume your familiar with light bulbs (incandescent)?can you think of any way to do this?


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> Total lulz at the idiot the hilariously named uk uncut put up for interview on newsnight. Surely that was a windup. Jesus. Was she fucking stoned?


 
was it our laurie? she tweeted she was on newsnight tonight.

she isn't brilliant at telly, bless her.


----------



## gabi (Mar 28, 2011)

Media training might be useful for her, yes. Emily maitliss even went easy on her and she still came out rather badly.


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

peterkro said:


> Yes you're right, but how do you inject something into a less than 1 Bar container without an ingress of gravity forced air,it will destroy the structure.I assume your familiar with light bulbs (incandescent)?can you think of any way to do this?


 
I'm guessing, but I would think that if you put the needle in with the plunger extended far enough to allow enough liquid in to roughly equalise the pressure then that would work fine.

I should probably point out that this is all academic, I expect that the police accounts are total bollocks.


----------



## discokermit (Mar 28, 2011)

peterkro said:


> Yes you're right, but how do you inject something into a less than 1 Bar container without an ingress of gravity forced air,it will destroy the structure.I assume your familiar with light bulbs (incandescent)?can you think of any way to do this?


 
you can't even buy the fucking things these days. and why bother when you can just buy stink bombs, which are also much easier to transport.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I don't want to make anyone poorer. I honestly believe reducing the deficit is going to help stop our economy going down the pan like Portugal.



I agree that we should reduce the deficit. Why not do this through collecting the £123 billion in uncollected taxes instead of attacking the jobs and services which people like your mum and my mum rely upon?



moon23 said:


> I've had to take a reduction in working hours and a two year pay freeze too, it's not like I'm not feeling some of the pain like everyone else, although thankfully I still have a job.


 
You're an idiot then - advancing the interests of the wealthiest even though it will cost you. Fool.


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2011)

gabi said:


> Media training might be useful for her, yes. Emily maitliss even went easy on her and she still came out rather badly.


 
looks like it was someone called lucy anson. reviews of her performance are... mixed.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I don't want to make anyone poorer. I honestly believe reducing the deficit is going to help stop our economy going down the pan like Portugal. I've had to take a reduction in working hours and a two year pay freeze too, it's not like I'm not feeling some of the pain like everyone else, although thankfully I still have a job.


 
You have a job for now. Do you think its fair that the general public should take a battering economically when perhaps some of that burden could be relieved by looking at other things such as business?

Why am I even asking? bed o'clock!


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 28, 2011)

Worthy of another thread? an open letter from Solfed to UK Uncut

http://libcom.org/library/letter-uk-uncutters-violent-minority


----------



## nick h. (Mar 28, 2011)

killer b said:


> looks like it was someone called lucy anson. reviews of her performance are... mixed.



At least she showed that Uk Uncut is a group for pleasant people without ACAB on their knuckles


----------



## revlon (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> They committed aggravated trespass which is a criminal act and got nicked for it. I'm not a fan of the CJA 1994 but I'm still yet to see an evidence of the police suppressing anyone's right to protest. Tricking them into getting nicked was pretty low. Lesson is police lie too.


 
actually there's no evidence they did commit aggravated trespass, therefore they haven't acted unlawfully, and as such they police had no legal authority to arrest any of them.


----------



## AverageJoe (Mar 28, 2011)

Oh ffs. I'm back. Which means you can take your vitriol out on me now too.

Protesting = good.
Regular protesting = better
Breaking stuff - well whats the fucking point. After all, at the end of the day, who pays for it. Thats why I suggested the smoke bombs and transit vans route.

And everyone here has to remember. This is Urban75. There are 60 million houses in the UK. The readership of the Sun is over 3.5 million. The Metro is the 4th biggest circulation newspapeer in the UK. So while you all frot yourselves into a frenzy, remember that 59,500,500 households just look and tut. And I am not saying that as a downer on you guys, but more as a yardstick of how much further we have to go.

When 1 family on every estate in every town turns up, week after week, to say enough is enough - thats when government will listen. When the Middle England finally stop being sucked in by the rhetoric that the Mail on Sunday etc feed them - thats when government will listen. 

When some hippies spraypaint Ann Summers cos they are walking past it or someone tries to smash the windows of the National gallery (both from posts in this thread) - no-one, *no-one* who has any semblance of power will give a fuck.

I am as frustrated as most of you, but dont ridicule or slag off dissenters on this thread. Whats the point. You just come over as idealised idiots, so far up your own arse that you are starting to *genuinely* believe that you are more important than others.

We are all in this together. You good folk can be the catalyst for that. And I hope you are. This country is fucked and needs proper, concise, prepared, regular action. People like you are the ones that can do it. And as you do, the scales will drop from others eyes and they will join you. And then we have a mass of people fighting for what is right and fair in this society. 

Dont break stuff. Those guys working in Starbucks - are they different to you? No - they are just getting a job to pay off their debts too. The guys in Fortnum and Mason? I doubt they get shares in the company. The police? (and I fucking HATE the police) - they are doing what they are told too, and facing cuts of their own. In essence, all protests so far at at too low a level - why take over a shop when you can take over the head office?

 Carry on doing what you are doing - your actions will influence each other, so make sure that you mentor them in the right way. 

I've just typed this and not read it through, so its an honest and passionate post about how I feel things should move forwards. People will disagree, people will digress, people will tell me to fuck off etc. But the point is - if you want to change anything, you can only change what is in your control. So changing the governments mind is probably not in our control right now. But.....changing the feelings, thoughts and emotions of the people around you will help to achieve your aim.

And with that, I'm oot for another night.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> You have a job for now. Do you think its fair that the general public should take a battering economically when perhaps some of that burden could be relieved by looking at other things such as business?
> 
> Why am I even asking? bed o'clock!


 
I don't see business interests as different from our own though. People work in businesses and we need them to be successful to generate more jobs for people. We also need them to be successful so we can generate more taxation income from them. I think when you tax things too much you take capital our of the productive private sector and place it in the hands of the public sector. I'm not saying the public sector is a bad thing, just that if it grows too large then it becomes unsustainable economically.


----------



## gabi (Mar 28, 2011)

killer b said:


> looks like it was someone called lucy anson. reviews of her performance are... mixed.


 
She came across pretty um. Fragile. Maybe not the best choice for a group wanting to be taken seriously.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 28, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I don't see business interests as different from our own though. People work in businesses and we need them to be successful to generate more jobs for people. We also need them to be successful so we can generate more taxation income from them. I think when you tax things too much you take capital our of the productive private sector and place it in the hands of the public sector. I'm not saying the public sector is a bad thing, just that if it grows too large then it becomes unsustainable economically.


 
Why haven't you answered my earlier post Moon?


----------



## peterkro (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> I'm guessing, but I would think that if you put the needle in with the plunger extended far enough to allow enough liquid in to roughly equalise the pressure then that would work fine.
> 
> I should probably point out that this is all academic, I expect that the police accounts are total bollocks.



The problem is it's a glass structure,you cannot pierce the structure without an equalisation of pressure,it's not a balloon it's a rigid crystalline structure.The only way to do this is with a bulb that is not a partial vacuum from the start,e.g. led trick bulbs that have no vacuum.I'd bet the farm this is complete bollocks.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> I'm guessing, but I would think that if you put the needle in with the plunger extended far enough to allow enough liquid in to roughly equalise the pressure then that would work fine.
> 
> I should probably point out that this is all academic, I expect that the police accounts are total bollocks.



The problem is it's a glass structure,you cannot pierce the structure without an equalisation of pressure,it's not a balloon it's a rigid crystalline structure.The only way to do this is with a bulb that is not a partial vacuum from the start,e.g. led trick bulbs that have no vacuum.I'd bet the farm this is complete bollocks.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 28, 2011)

killer b said:


> looks like it was someone called lucy anson. reviews of her performance are... mixed.


 
she had to keep it pretty neutral to avoid condemning or condoning the "violence" - I thought she was fine under the cimrcumstances -


----------



## killer b (Mar 28, 2011)

why avoid condoning it?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 28, 2011)

Why are the BNP more worthy of respect than the EDL moon?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 28, 2011)

audiotech said:


> They are indeed.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html


 
I like that that's by Ben Stein, the teacher from _Ferris Bueller's Day Off_.


----------



## gabi (Mar 28, 2011)

cantsin said:


> she had to keep it pretty neutral to avoid condemning or condoning the "violence" - I thought she was fine under the cimrcumstances -


 
She reminded me of the lovely but eccentric cat woman two doors down. Leaving aside the fact she wouldn't even answer a question about whether she agreed with direct action, which she clearly didn't. Bonkers.


----------



## Callie (Mar 28, 2011)

peterkro said:


> The problem is it's a glass structure,you cannot pierce the structure without an equalisation of pressure,it's not a balloon it's a rigid crystalline structure.The only way to do this is with a bulb that is not a partial vacuum from the start,e.g. led trick bulbs that have no vacuum.I'd bet the farm this is complete bollocks.


 
shut up about lightbulbs!


----------



## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

peterkro said:


> The problem is it's a glass structure,you cannot pierce the structure without an equalisation of pressure,it's not a balloon it's a rigid crystalline structure.The only way to do this is with a bulb that is not a partial vacuum from the start,e.g. led trick bulbs that have no vacuum.I'd bet the farm this is complete bollocks.


 
I'm not disputing it's bollocks, I'm just talking shit on the interweb about whether it's _possible_ (which I think it might be, although probably stupid and pointless).

My point was that if you have the plunger slightly extended, then when you pierce the housing, the liquid would be pushed in, equalising the pressure.

Which doesn't take away from the pointlessness, stupidity or fiddliness of the whole exercise...


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## 8ball (Mar 28, 2011)

Callie said:


> shut up about lightbulbs!


 
<sits on hands>


----------



## cantsin (Mar 28, 2011)

killer b said:


> why avoid condoning it?


 
I'd guess that's her/UKU 's position - 'peaceful' direct action advocates who arent willing to comdemn those that are willing to get involved in 'non peaceful'  actions - but am guessing, obv.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> I'm not disputing it's bollocks, I'm just talking shit on the interweb about whether it's _possible_ (which I think it might be, although probably stupid and pointless).
> 
> My point was that if you have the plunger slightly extended, then when you pierce the housing, the liquid would be pushed in, equalising the pressure.
> 
> Which doesn't take away from the pointlessness, stupidity or fiddliness of the whole exercise...



OK I'll shut up about light bulbs,soonish,how the fuck can you inject something into a glass structure without destroying that structure,this is a challenge,try it.


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## southside (Mar 28, 2011)

peterkro said:


> OK I'll shut up about light bulbs,soonish,how the fuck can you inject something into a glass structure without destroying that structure,this is a challenge,try it.



Dirty Harry made a bomb out of a light bulb, he heated up the metal and removed the fillament and filled the bulb with a flamable liquid, baddie entered the room, turnd on the light and boom.


----------



## AverageJoe (Mar 29, 2011)

southside said:


> Dirty Harry made a bomb out of a light bulb, he heated up the metal and removed the fillament and filled the bulb with a flamable liquid, baddie entered the room, turnd on the light and boom.


 
Lets hope Joe Montana and his mate werent around....


----------



## audiotech (Mar 29, 2011)

Clint Eastwood was on the March?


----------



## cantsin (Mar 29, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Worthy of another thread? an open letter from Solfed to UK Uncut
> 
> http://libcom.org/library/letter-uk-uncutters-violent-minority


 
could do with it's own thread imo


----------



## Crispy (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> One he brought to the party himself. He can't moan.


 
Who has control over their parents choice of education?
There are better sticks.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

What gets me most about this is that undertaking political violence is a big, *BIG* step to take, it's as serious a thing as it's possible to get. Yet people on here are happy to treat it almost as something ephemeral, as if to them it sits easily within the natural course of events at a demonstration and that being called on to justify the use of it is somehow an affront.

Imo you have to go a hell of a lot further to justify the use of political violence than the weak attempts we've had so far on here.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What gets me most about this is that undertaking political violence is a big, *BIG* step to take, it's as serious a thing as it's possible to get. Yet people on here are happy to treat it almost as something ephemeral, as if to them it sits easily within the natural course of events at a demonstration and that being called on to justify the use of it is somehow an affront.
> 
> Imo you have to go a hell of a lot further to justify the use of political violence than the weak attempts we've had so far on here.


 
Many don't see occupations and destruction of property as violence.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What gets me most about this is that undertaking political violence is a big, *BIG* step to take, it's as serious a thing as it's possible to get. Yet people on here are happy to treat it almost as something ephemeral, as if to them it sits easily within the natural course of events at a demonstration and that being called on to justify the use of it is somehow an affront.
> 
> Imo you have to go a hell of a lot further to justify the use of political violence than the weak attempts we've had so far on here.


 
You are an incredibly dull and po-faced individual Andrew Hertford. Have you eve been into role-playing games? Not the sexy kind, obviously.


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 29, 2011)

southside said:


> Smashing shit is dumb and the majority of the said smashers were quite young looking, under 25.



Only over 25's with a clean CRB check should be able to vote, that would weed out most anarchists and other antisocial types at least, eh?

You complete and utter cock


----------



## Dave Mullen (Mar 29, 2011)

Corax said:


> Quite.  Would rather not do it to the scum though...



Mind you news international are well known for this sort of thing, didn't scum journalists used to pay England fans to start causing trouble back in the 80's and 90's? I thought it an idea to show them up for being stupid by pointing out that a sky news journalist has been trying to incite violence to further the aims of his company and another of the "rioters" is an undercover dibble. Still haven't been able to find out his name though. According to the Evening Nazi, Newscorp are denying it. Still no closer to finding out his name.


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## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

IC3D said:


> Many don't see occupations and destruction of property as violence.


 
Occupations aren't acts of violence, destruction of property is totally an act of violence. Anyone who thinks it isn't is on cloud cuckoo land and needs to go back to the dictionary.


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 29, 2011)

some of my witterings on the day. Already forgotten half the things I was meaning to mention ha


Like many others on here I started off on the Kennington feeder march. The immediately noticeable thing was the utter lack of OB. One of the people of our coach even joked they felt disappointed as it didn’t look like the coppers were taking us seriously. The atmosphere was most relaxed and jovial. Speaking to a number of people during and after it was this combination of little police presence and relaxed atmosphere which meant they decided not to mask up. 

I was with the LAWAS lot at the front of the march when everyone broke off from the designated route to go over Westminster Bridge and the stewards seemed more concerned than the coppers. The most feeble attempt was made to hold the lines but quickly this was given up. Whether this was because they thought they had too few to hold the lines safely or just weren’t that bothered, knowing we were just walking to a higher concentration of Police I don’t know (though I suspect it may have been more of the second). 

Aside from the failure to deal with the Black Bloc and kicking things off on Piccadilly later, I thought policing was unusually intelligent on the day. Hell, the first lot of TSG on the scene at F&M even had their sergeant calming his troops down etc. Will be interesting to see if this is a tactic we’ll see more of, or if it was just a result of being so outnumbered.

We wandered up to Oxford Street to have a gander at Ukuncut stuff and came across the black block. Was amusing to see a guy in a new Jag XK do a very rapid u-turn, followed a few minutes later by a couple of coppers finding an excuse to investigate something up a side street away from the action.

Ended up outside F&M just as Ukuncut activists were entering. By the time we’d got across the barriers the coppers were on the doors. Everyone, including many going past on the march at that time seemed very positive about it. First lot of TSG turned up shortly after and behaved well. Second lot coming up from Jermyn Street a few minutes later were not. Few people passed through their lines before they decided to twat some teenage lass with their shields and there was a rush through. The line of about 10-15 TSG then got caught in a Blakelock sandwich and started to shit themselves and rather panicly started to lash out. Weird moment when one copper twatted a female photographer with his shield, knocked her arse over tit and then apologised and asked her if she was ok!??!

After a short time they retreated against a wall of F&M where they got a bit of shit, including some, I presume, FBU lads getting stuck in.

Worthwhile pointing out how few people at this point were masked up and how many were what some on this thread would call ‘normal/proper’ protesters.

I left at this point but assume it was much the same for the next few hours.


The whole feeder march tactic was good and something which should occur every large demo. Definitely had a positive effect splitting police forces and control etc.


Interesting to see the Met had produced leaflets which were handed out explaining the policing on the day etc. Never seen that before.


Twitter really was a useful tool. Cheap disposable phones with twitter access would be a great tool


The IWW alternative event didn’t appear to happen in Hyde Park which is a bit of a shambles. I assume people got caught in the mass and didn’t get there in time. This was surely predictable and people who organised it should have just gone straight there.


Maybe it was just ‘cos of the route we were on but the normal mass of lefty paper sellers were noticeable by their absence.


*UKUncut*

A couple of us were talking about this before hand saying the opportunity of having so many of the ‘main’ ukuncut activists in one place would be too easy a target for the state to pass up on. Looks like we were right. Is this going to be the end of the relatively easy ride Ukuncut actions have had so far?

The arrests appear to be pure intimidation and data gathering. They appear to have got their targets slightly mixed up with the bail conditions – I’d have thought they’d have blocked ‘em from accessing big Ukuncut targets (Topshop, F&M etc) rather than the Royal Wedding.

Interesting that this time it would have been hard for the OB to kettle on Oxford Circus and the environs. It was slightly surreal to see protesters, Japanese tourists, Saturday shoppers and TSG all mingling/


*Black Bloc*

Ignoring for the moment whether their actions were strategically sound (I’m not convinced they were the greatest idea for the day) and just focussing on their tactics of the day and some other thoughts.

The vast majority masked up and partaking in actions were clearly young which was nice to see. Suggests that there is an increased radicalisation of students and young people, and fuck me, they seem to learn quickly! From my position (and I was only around them at a few different times of the day) they seemed to run the OB ragged. Admittedly stating the obvious but constantly moving made it hard to stop them, especially when the TSG were limited by where their vans could go. Twice we saw TSG vans having to do u-turns due to the way being blocked. It did appear the coppers were genuinely struggling to deal with them as opposed to working to some pre-determined agenda. 

Having said that there as a bunch of pointless stuff – pulling bins behind you on pedestrian streets etc is just daft and makes you look stupid. Also, the seemingly age old problem of anarchos not dealing with the media. If someone had bothered to put out a brief press release Saturday night it would have been quoted a bunch. Not going to get far lobbing traffic cones at riot vans either. The TSG copper who got out the one just appeared faintly bemused by the whole proceedings.


----------



## gawkrodger (Mar 29, 2011)

Oh, and one of my main impressions of the march was that many people saw this as the start of things to come, a warning shot across the bows if you like. Bit weird


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> some of my witterings on the day. Already forgotten half the things I was meaning to mention ha
> 
> 
> Like many others on here I started off on the Kennington feeder march. The immediately noticeable thing was the utter lack of OB. One of the people of our coach even joked they felt disappointed as it didn’t look like the coppers were taking us seriously. The atmosphere was most relaxed and jovial. Speaking to a number of people during and after it was this combination of little police presence and relaxed atmosphere which meant they decided not to mask up.
> ...


 
The average age of a UK Uncut protester seems about 17. Probably explains why they want to destroy the only remaining private sector businesses that are actually generating any wealth in the economy.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

350 people and counting say they are attending a mass occupation of Trafalgar Square this Saturday...

http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=137568376313742

For those not on facebook...



> On Saturday the 26th of March 2011 Trafalgar Square was occupied by anti-cuts protesters with the intention to stay peacefully overnight. We plan to make another attempt at a occupation of Trafalgar Square on Saturday 2nd of April to show our continued peaceful resistance, and do so with a clearer purpose and approach, and a greater level of organisation.
> 
> The people united will never be defeated. If they push us we will come back... and if they knock us down then we will get up again. If we choose to resist an attempt to remove us, then it will be non-violently; through passive resistance. We refuse to use violence when it is violence done to our society that we are trying to resist.
> 
> ...


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 29, 2011)

^any urbanz gonna go?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> The average age of a UK Uncut protester seems about 17. Probably explains why they want to destroy the only remaining private sector businesses that are actually generating any wealth in the economy.



Thanks moon23 for posting that link to the video. Something tells me that you just watched the first minute or so. I found it very inspiring and think that UK Uncut has a lot going for it. What a difference from the tired old traditional opposition movements. They are young yes but mostly in their mid 20s and full of energy and of course anger. All they want is for those businesses to pay their taxes. They have costed the potential return against the fictional 'debt'. I wish them well.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 29, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> You are an incredibly dull and po-faced individual Andrew Hertford. Have you eve been into role-playing games? Not the sexy kind, obviously.


 Hey, thats deeply unfair to RPG players.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)




----------



## pk (Mar 29, 2011)

shaman75 said:


>




LOL, at least they didn't manage to settle down with any female protesters and start a family... did he have a wonky eye?


----------



## teccuk (Mar 29, 2011)

pk said:


> LOL, at least they didn't manage to settle down with any female protesters and start a family... did he have a wonky eye?


 
Hahaha. Undercover Police Fail.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Occupations aren't acts of violence, destruction of property is totally an act of violence. Anyone who thinks it isn't is on cloud cuckoo land and needs to go back to the dictionary.


 
Like I said earlier. Indiscriminate batoning isn't an act of violence, but actions that would be described as petty vandalism in other contexts become "mindless violence" if they an act of civil disobedience. Terminology.


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What gets me most about this is that undertaking political violence is a big, *BIG* step to take, it's as serious a thing as it's possible to get. Yet people on here are happy to treat it almost as something ephemeral, as if to them it sits easily within the natural course of events at a demonstration and that being called on to justify the use of it is somehow an affront.
> 
> Imo you have to go a hell of a lot further to justify the use of political violence than the weak attempts we've had so far on here.



See, if you had posted about in support of the anti-cuts movement elsewhere and what you were doing to build that movement, or if you had posted poitively about other working class struggles, I might be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. I might be inclined to believe that here was someone genuinely supportive of progressive struggles and who genuinely (but mistakenly) believed that the "violence" was a problem for those struggles in gathering wider and deeper support. But that's not how it is, is it?

Every single struggle, every single strike, occupation, protest - you're looking to condemn "violence", "troublemakers", "the irresponsible minority" or what have you and to distance yourself from those who go beyond peaceful protest. And that's all you fucking do. Ever. If it walks like a duck......

Which is why I called you Spymaster without the wit. However, I should have clarified - by "wit" I was not referring to humour, I meant without the wit to realise it. If you ever did have progressive politics, they've long since disappeared - you're now just reactionary cunt who lacks both self-awareness and the courage of their convictions


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> The average age of a UK Uncut protester seems about 17. Probably explains why they want to destroy the only remaining private sector businesses that are actually generating any wealth in the economy.


 
They want private sector businesses that are taking vast sums out of the British economy to pay the taxes they should be paying. You can spin that however you like but that is what it boils down to.

Why haven't you answered my earlier post yet Moonie?


----------



## southside (Mar 29, 2011)

twentythreedom said:


> Only over 25's with a clean CRB check should be able to vote, that would weed out most anarchists and other antisocial types at least, eh?
> 
> You complete and utter cock


 
HAHAHA!

My god.


----------



## xes (Mar 29, 2011)

shaman75 said:


>




That looks like the guy who was pictured in one of the papers (was it the mail?) Who looked to be protecting police in a tussle. Even they said he looks like an undercover cop.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2011)

xes said:


> That looks like the guy who was pictured in one of the papers (was it the mail?) Who looked to be protecting police in a tussle. Even they said he looks like an undercover cop.



Lol.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 29, 2011)

> The average age of a UK Uncut protester seems about 17. Probably explains why they want to destroy the only remaining *private sector businesses that are actually generating any wealth in the economy.*



Billiant.

considering its supposed to be the creative industries bringing the UK out of the recession, I didnt see one ad/media agency targeted.....


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 29, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/28/cuts-protest-uk-uncut-fortnum

Guardian article about police lying to the F&M protesters.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 29, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/28/cuts-protest-uk-uncut-fortnum
> 
> Guardian article about police lying to the F&M protesters.



Is this basically not entrapment, which is illegal in the UK?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What gets me most about this is that undertaking political violence is a big, *BIG* step to take, it's as serious a thing as it's possible to get. Yet people on here are happy to treat it almost as something ephemeral, as if to them it sits easily within the natural course of events at a demonstration and that being called on to justify the use of it is somehow an affront.
> 
> Imo you have to go a hell of a lot further to justify the use of political violence than the weak attempts we've had so far on here.



Yet capitalism and liberal democracy are built on violence...


----------



## strung out (Mar 29, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Is this basically not entrapment, which is illegal in the UK?


 
entrapment would be tricking them into committing the illegal act, not tricking them into giving themselves up for arrest. i think.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Who has control over their parents choice of education?
> There are better sticks.


 
I didn't mention his education, i have no idea about his education or his background. I didn't beat him with anything at all, i merely highlighted the fact that he was the one who started off class-baiting (and is stil at it today as well).


----------



## Crispy (Mar 29, 2011)

My misunderstanding then


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

No worries. 

Combustible asked earlier for more details on Fortnum's tax-avoidance. Richard Murphy has come up with this:

This is why UK Uncut picked on Fortnum’s

Bit sketchy tbh. Some serious research and printed explanations/talk would have been very handy on the day.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 29, 2011)

strung out said:


> entrapment would be tricking them into committing the illegal act, not tricking them into giving themselves up for arrest. i think.


 
Oh that makes sense.

Is it illegal to lure someone into a false sense of security?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> They want private sector businesses that are taking vast sums out of the British economy to pay the taxes they should be paying. You can spin that however you like but that is what it boils down to.
> 
> Why haven't you answered my earlier post yet Moonie?


 
HMRC makes the situation as murky as possible. Tax avoidance is legal behaviour, so you cannot be prosecuted for it per se, but transactions deemed carried out solely for the purposes of avoidance may be set aside. A considerable amount of discretion is in practice exercised by inspectors. And a curiously British institution is a fantastically complex and often vague tax law (it isn't a code), in connection with which the authorities will never as a matter of policy confirm that taxpayer behaviour is legal, or (if they can avoid it) make any statement on which you may legally rely. The whole structure is built on draconian unrealistic rules under which taxpayers have few verifiable rights - so they must in practice rely on the custom and practice of extra statutory concessions and judgments about costs and the willingness of the authorities to pursue any particular issue.

Rather than sitting around in shops causing trouble and looking like a bunch of idiots UK Uncut could do us all a favour and lobby for a clear and transparent tax regime. I know tax simplification isn't sexy, but it's really at the heart of any 'avoidance' problem.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> HMRC makes the situation as murky as possible. Tax avoidance is legal behaviour, so you cannot be prosecuted for it per se, but transactions deemed carried out solely for the purposes of avoidance may be set aside. A considerable amount of discretion is in practice exercised by inspectors. And a curiously British institution is a fantastically complex and often vague tax law (it isn't a code), in connection with which the authorities will never as a matter of policy confirm that taxpayer behaviour is legal, or (if they can avoid it) make any statement on which you may legally rely. The whole structure is built on draconian unrealistic rules under which taxpayers have few verifiable rights - so they must in practice rely on the custom and practice of extra statutory concessions and judgments about costs and the willingness of the authorities to pursue any particular issue.
> 
> Rather than sitting around in shops causing trouble and looking like a bunch of idiots UK Uncut could do us all a favour and lobby for a clear and transparent tax regime. I know tax simplification isn't sexy, but it's really at the heart of any 'avoidance' problem.



It's really not. It's the desire to pay as little money as possible and to use the saved money to make more money on which you also try to pay as little as possible - and that desire is inherent to capitalist accumulation. It's its central dynamic. And it damages wider society whilst parasiting off the benefits that society provides to those private businesses (educated workforce, transportation infrastructure, communincation networks, law and order, housing and health etc).


----------



## magneze (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No worries.
> 
> Combustible asked earlier for more details on Fortnum's tax-avoidance. Richard Murphy has come up with this:
> 
> ...


That's a really good blog. Some interesting stuff on there re: tax justice.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> HMRC makes the situation as murky as possible. Tax avoidance is legal behaviour, so you cannot be prosecuted for it per se, but transactions deemed carried out solely for the purposes of avoidance may be set aside. A considerable amount of discretion is in practice exercised by inspectors. And a curiously British institution is a fantastically complex and often vague tax law (it isn't a code), in connection with which the authorities will never as a matter of policy confirm that taxpayer behaviour is legal, or (if they can avoid it) make any statement on which you may legally rely. The whole structure is built on draconian unrealistic rules under which taxpayers have few verifiable rights - so they must in practice rely on the custom and practice of extra statutory concessions and judgments about costs and the willingness of the authorities to pursue any particular issue.
> 
> Rather than sitting around in shops causing trouble and looking like a bunch of idiots UK Uncut could do us all a favour and lobby for a clear and transparent tax regime. I know tax simplification isn't sexy, but it's really at the heart of any 'avoidance' problem.


 
It is the financial muscle of business/timidity of government that produces opaque tax law. Highlighting this finacial muscle (and ensuing injustice), as UK Uncut do, is part of a solution. So you get on with your campaign for coporate tax simplification (if that's what you're actually doing) and they can get on with their's for coporate tax justice; it something of a win win situation.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

magneze said:


> That's a really good blog. Some interesting stuff on there re: tax justice.


 
Yes, he does some very useful work.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> I agree that we should reduce the deficit. Why not do this through collecting the £123 billion in uncollected taxes instead of attacking the jobs and services which people like your mum and my mum rely upon?



I do think we should make efforts to close tax loops, but I'm not convinced by this figure of £123 billion. I think it's based on a misunderstanding of the term avoidance (which is a legal practice). Just as public spending is not a complete loss of money, because some comes back into the economy via wages being spent so does any money that goes untaxed. If Vodaphone have an extra few Billion that's going to go into improving their business, employing more staff or into investments that stimulate growth by providing capital for the private sector.

As mentioned in my last post I think we need to simplify the taxation system so we can be clear what is or isn’t avoidance (at the moment it’s determined by hugely expensive and lengthy legal battles, due to the complexity of our taxation system).  Doing that would reduce the cost of complying with tax and leave more money for actual profit and taxation.

I’d see a simplification and reduction in the size of HMRC, I’d combine National Insurance with Income Tax and I’d remove lot’s of the complex allowances in favour of a lower overall  base rate.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It's really not. It's the desire to pay as little money as possible and to use the saved money to make more money on which you also try to pay as little as possible - and that desire is inherent to capitalist accumulation. It's its central dynamic. And it damages wider society whilst parasiting off the benefits that society provides to those private businesses (educated workforce, transportation infrastructure, communincation networks, law and order, housing and health etc).


 
Which is why you need a simple tax code that is easy to understand and enforce.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> It is the financial muscle of business/timidity of government that produces opaque tax law. Highlighting this finacial muscle (and ensuing injustice), as UK Uncut do, is part of a solution. So you get on with your campaign for coporate tax simplification (if that's what you're actually doing) and they can get on with their's for coporate tax justice; it something of a win win situation.
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
I'll give UK Uncut some credit in that they may cause people to think about what they can do to improve the taxation system.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I do think we should make efforts to close tax loops, but I'm not convinced by this figure of £123 billion. I think it's based on a misunderstanding of the term avoidance (which is a legal practice).
> 
> <snip>



You have clearly not read the reports that these figures are based on - this is dealt with ion great detail at the start. Do you really think someone who is a visiting fellow at Portsmouth University Business School,  the Centre for Global Political Economy at the University of Sussex and  at the Tax Research Institute, University of Nottingham doesn't know the difference between evasion and avoidance? GThis is just lazy lazy rubbish.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Which is why you need a simple tax code that is easy to understand and enforce.


 
That may help crack down tax avoiders if the political will was there (it isn't - in fact your government is making it much easier for business to avoid and evade tax), but it doesn't do a damn thing about the underlying dynamic that's driving this behaviour.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I'll give UK Uncut some credit in that they may cause people to think about what they can do to improve the taxation system.


 
Do you think they have created more interest in tax justice than you have in tax simplification? If so you've got some catching up to do if you're not going to let the side down.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You have clearly not read the reports that these figures are based on - this is dealt with ion great detail at the start. Do you really think someone who is a visiting fellow at Portsmouth University Business School,  the Centre for Global Political Economy at the University of Sussex and  at the Tax Research Institute, University of Nottingham doesn't know the difference between evasion and avoidance? GThis is just lazy lazy rubbish.


 
I'm sure these people are very capable of working out what is avoidance and evasion based on their current understanding of the law, but HMRC make this incredibly difficult by rarely confirming what is or isn't legal behaviour.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I'm sure these people are very capable of working out what is avoidance and evasion based on their current understanding of the law, but HMRC make this incredibly difficult by rarely confirming what is or isn't legal behaviour.


 
So you agree with their estimate?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I'm sure these people are very capable of working out what is avoidance and evasion based on their current understanding of the law, but HMRC make this incredibly difficult by rarely confirming what is or isn't legal behaviour.


 
So why then are you dismissing the figure on the grounds that the authot can't tell the difference between avoidance and evasion?


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Do you think they have created more interest in tax justice than you have in tax simplification? If so you've got some catching up to do if you're not going to let the side down.
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
I think running around causing mayhem is going to be of far more fun and interest to people then tax simplification  I haven't done anything to raise the issue of tax simplification to the public, but I have to Danny Alexander.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I'll give UK Uncut some credit in that they may cause people to think about what they can do to improve the taxation system.


 
They are also the ones stamped on the hardest by being arrested, charged and possibly asbo'd from further demo's. Causing more of a threat than the BB


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So you agree with their estimate?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


 
I haven't read enough of their workings to decide. I'm sceptical as to what methodology they may have used because so many of these tax cases are subject to obscure points of European Law. I do think it's worth considering that taking £130Bn out of the private sector in the UK is going to have a wider affect on the economy.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

IC3D said:


> They are also the ones stamped on the hardest by being arrested, charged and possibly asbo'd from further demo's. Causing more of a threat than the BB


 
Well that's a result of their stupid tactics that allow them to be painted as a bunch of fringe nutters.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 29, 2011)

Your lot are making it easier to avoid tax moon.  The guys you cheer for.  Them.


----------



## tommers (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I haven't read enough of their workings to decide. I'm sceptical as to what methodology they may have used because so many of these tax cases are subject to obscure points of European Law. I do think it's worth considering that taking £130Bn out of the private sector in the UK is going to have a wider affect on the economy.



So nobody should pay any tax?  Cool.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I think running around causing mayhem is going to be of far more fun and interest to people then tax simplification  I haven't done anything to raise the issue of tax simplification to the public, but I have to Danny Alexander.


 
Bad people not falling in line with your priorities, choosing stuff that is interesting and enjoyable; your misanthropic streak is showing again.

As for Danny, well he was making promises back in September:

The Liberal Democrats today promised an attack on those who have made tax evasion a lifestyle choice, as the party announced government plans to raise an extra £7bn by 2014-15 by tackling tax avoidance and fraud.

The Treasury would be "ruthless with wealthy individuals and business who think paying extra tax is an optional extra", vowed its chief secretary, Danny Alexander.

Much of the clampdown will involve more intensive scrutiny of those liable for paying the new 50p tax band introduced by the Labour government. Revenue and Customs currently looks at 5,000 high net-worth individuals, but will expand that number to 150,000.​
But they look a little foolish now that Vince and George are getting rid of the 50p tax band.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I haven't read enough of their workings to decide. I'm sceptical as to what methodology they may have used because so many of these tax cases are subject to obscure points of European Law. I do think it's worth considering that taking £130Bn out of the private sector in the UK is going to have a wider affect on the economy.


 
So, in brief, you've dimissed a figure out of hand without doing any research - or the basics of reading how, why and from where that figure was derived. Fantastic. Do you know what - i could've swore that you'd promised to read the report (pdf) last year.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

IC3D said:


> They are also the ones stamped on the hardest by being arrested, charged and possibly asbo'd from further demo's. Causing more of a threat than the BB


 
I'd say that some of them are also the ones making it easier for the TUC and others to isolate them from the wider movement by attempting to isolate the more aggressive protesters from their actions. Stupid game to be playing right now.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Well that's a result of their stupid tactics that allow them to be painted as a bunch of fringe nutters.


 
peaceful civil disobedience? The fucking crazies!


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Well that's a result of their stupid tactics that allow them to be painted as a bunch of fringe nutters.


 
One minute you support peaceful occupation and direct action, but not the action/methods of the likes of the Black Bloc, then you're dissing UK Uncuts peaceful actions.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I'd say that some of them are also the ones making it easier for the TUC and others to isolate them from the wider movement by attempting to isolate the more aggressive protesters from their actions. Stupid game to be playing right now.


 
Who knows how much they benefited from the BB being there and the crossover of actions, people and ideas in the future when there was no need to dis really.


----------



## southside (Mar 29, 2011)

There is a danger that the governemt could find themselves not having any business's to tax, They're scared that they will leave the country due to harsh taxation so I'm sceptical how far they will really go with it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

you mean the totally unproven danger of capital flight that has never happened despite tight  wankers threatening it?

I'll take that risk


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> you mean the totally unproven danger of capital flight that has never happened despite tight  wankers threatening it?
> 
> I'll take that risk



Particularly as the Dutch have just voted for a 100% tax on bonuses in the banks that have been bailed out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/mar/27/dutch-bankers-bonuses-axed-by-people-power


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

stephj said:


> One minute you support peaceful occupation and direct action, but not the action/methods of the likes of the Black Bloc, then you're dissing UK Uncuts peaceful actions.


 
I said that occupation wasn't violent, I don't recall supporting it as a productive form of political action. I'm 'dissing' their political strategy.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

they should deliver focus leaflets


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

past caring said:


> See, if you had posted about in support of the anti-cuts movement elsewhere and what you were doing to build that movement, or if you had posted poitively about other working class struggles, I might be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. I might be inclined to believe that here was someone genuinely supportive of progressive struggles and who genuinely (but mistakenly) believed that the "violence" was a problem for those struggles in gathering wider and deeper support. But that's not how it is, is it?
> 
> Every single struggle, every single strike, occupation, protest - you're looking to condemn "violence", "troublemakers", "the irresponsible minority" or what have you and to distance yourself from those who go beyond peaceful protest. And that's all you fucking do. Ever. If it walks like a duck......
> 
> Which is why I called you Spymaster without the wit. However, I should have clarified - by "wit" I was not referring to humour, I meant without the wit to realise it. If you ever did have progressive politics, they've long since disappeared - you're now just reactionary cunt who lacks both self-awareness and the courage of their convictions



Like I said, I applaud UKuncut and the occupation of Fortnum and Mason, but masked men dressed in black going around smashing shop windows? Looks more like Krystallnacht than a popular movement against tory cuts and it can only alienate support. Sinister stuff.

Resorting to abuse proves that you have no reasoned response to my argument. I'm not even sure who this Spymaster is to be honest, I don't spend all day with my head buried in this forum. I suppose he might be the petrolhead I had a run in with a couple of years ago.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

Do you know what Kristalnacht was?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

face fucking palm- kristellnacht ffs. Get a grip you self righteous arse

and given that it was state sponsored& approved violence you are using as an example you've pissed your chips twice


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 29, 2011)

Clearly not the twat.


----------



## trabant (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Like I said, I applaud UKuncut and the occupation of Fortnum and Mason, but masked men dressed in black going around smashing shop windows? Looks more like Krystallnacht than a popular movement against tory cuts and it can only alienate support. Sinister stuff.


 
Broken record. And bringing Kristallnacht into this discussion, priceless.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Do you know what Kristalnacht was?



Yes I fucking do, and that is what these silly cunts reminded me of. Did occur to them that that was what it looked like? I doubt it.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Yes I fucking do, and that is what these silly cunts reminded me of. Did occur to them that that was what it looked like? I doubt it.


 
So Saturday reminded you of state sponsored racist violence in fascist Germany?

Do you take a lot of drugs?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

maybe all the businesses smashed are jewish owned- I mean, according to david icke.com....


----------



## Onket (Mar 29, 2011)

I love the internet sometimes.


----------



## trabant (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Yes I fucking do, and that is what these silly cunts reminded me of. Did occur to them that that was what it looked like? I doubt it.


 
tbf, I agree with you. I really doubt that anyone but yourself has come up with that.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> So Saturday reminded you of state sponsored racist violence in fascist Germany?
> 
> Do you take a lot of drugs?



A group of masked men dressed in black going around smashing up shops? The imagery is undeniably similar. If that makes you feel uncomfortable then tough shit.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of masked men dressed in black going around smashing up shops? The imagery is undeniably similar. If that makes you fell uncomfortable then tough shit.


 
It doesnt make anyone feel uncomfortable, it makes you look stupid


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

what a strange world you live in Hertford. Did you see a man at the newsagents negotiating his monthly beano subscription and automatically be reminded of the molotov-ribbetrop pact?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

It's worse than nazi Germany.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

ritzkrieg


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of masked men dressed in black going around smashing up shops? The imagery is undeniably similar. If that makes you feel uncomfortable then tough shit.


 
What imagery would that be then Andrew? Do go on, do tell us...


----------



## tommers (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm surprised it took till post 1430.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of masked men dressed in black going around smashing up shops? The imagery is undeniably similar. If that makes you feel uncomfortable then tough shit.


 
I presume that you, you nutter, have a pic of masked men during  Kristallnacht to back up your comparison?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

A far less nutty comparison is the suffragettes smashing windows on the Strand, Oxford Street and Buck palace. Do the suffragettes scare you Andrew?


----------



## rekil (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> A far less nutty comparison is the suffragettes smashing windows on the Strand, Oxford Street and Buck palace. Do the suffragettes scare you Andrew?


 Feminazi Ritzkrieg.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

_Now_ he's scared.


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

It's just like one of them Sven Hassel books.


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Like I said, I applaud UKuncut and the occupation of Fortnum and Mason, but masked men dressed in black going around smashing shop windows? Looks more like Krystallnacht than a popular movement against tory cuts and it can only alienate support. Sinister stuff.
> 
> Resorting to abuse proves that you have no reasoned response to my argument. I'm not even sure who this Spymaster is to be honest, I don't spend all day with my head buried in this forum. I suppose he might be the petrolhead I had a run in with a couple of years ago.


 
Your right masked men going around smashing stuff up looks terrible. Most of the people you are arguing against have probably masked up at some point in their lives, and can't put themselves in the mindset of what most ordinary people think of it.


----------



## dennisr (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> ritzkrieg


 
arf


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

copliker said:


> Feminazi Ritzkrieg.


 
Good one


----------



## moon23 (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> they should deliver focus leaflets


 
There is more to being a Lib Dem than focus leaflets, there are tabloids and blue letter too.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Your right masked men going around smashing stuff up looks terrible. Most of the people you are arguing against have probably masked up at some point in their lives, and can't put themselves in the mindset of what most ordinary people think of it.


 
I am an ordinary person who has never masked up and smashed stuff up in my life, and I'm all for it. And my mum's a Lib-Dem so nyer nyer


----------



## rekil (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Good one


Ugh. In that case, I retract my post.


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Your right masked men going around smashing stuff up looks terrible. Most of the people you are arguing against have probably masked up at some point in their lives, and can't put themselves in the mindset of what most ordinary people think of it.


 
Your gimp mask counts as well, you cunt.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Your right masked men going around smashing stuff up looks terrible. Most of the people you are arguing against have probably masked up at some point in their lives, and can't put themselves in the mindset of what most ordinary people think of it.


 
Nice smear job moon but I never have.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> There is more to being a Lib Dem than focus leaflets, there are tabloids and blue letter too.


 
the blue letter, is it a capital T?


----------



## twentythreedom (Mar 29, 2011)

southside said:


> HAHAHA!
> 
> My god.



Smashing shit up is what happens when people are pissed off, it does achieve things, and the age of the smashers is irrelevant. Now jog on, funny man...


----------



## grit (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Nice smear job moon but I never have.


 
Like it or not the point is valid, the vast majority of the public dont condone it. I can understand appreciate peoples motivations to do it. However they are fooling themselves if they think it will actually effect change.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2011)

This would be hilarious if it were satire. But it's not:

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261


----------



## Onket (Mar 29, 2011)

What is it?


----------



## Dan U (Mar 29, 2011)

for Onket

Rally Against Debt

 A well mannered, polite rally for civilised people who don't wish to see their hard earned money being spent on pointless government initiatives and instead would like government spending to actually fall and our national debt to be cut.

Any visits to Fortum and Mason's by protestors will only be to marvel at their selection of quality goods and perhaps make the occasional purchase.

Bonfires will be strictly forbidden: it's out of season anyway

Trips to see Vodafone and other high street chains will result in congratulations to the company for providing jobs and growth in the UK.

This is only a planning group at the moment and all subject to change.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 29, 2011)

Harry Alderidge

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261#!/harry.aldridge

who are the 'freedom association'

sounds like some kind of cult Moon23 might like


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

grit said:


> Like it or not the point is valid, the vast majority of the public dont condone it. I can understand appreciate peoples motivations to do it. However they are fooling themselves if they think it will actually effect change.


 
was that the point? the point moon was making was about how people feel when confronted with masked people smashing things- and yes that would be fear, because you'd think they were after you personally. That doesn't translate into the vast majority not condoning it- it might be a valid assertion, I haven't polled the vast majority. But you've made a two-step paralogical leap from one thing to something else


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

Dan U said:


> Harry Alderidge
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261#!/harry.aldridge
> 
> ...


 
He has drank with them before - really. They're pro-apartheid, strike breaking racist far right pricks. So good company.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> He has drank with them before - really. They're pro-apartheid, strike breaking racist far right pricks. So good company.


 
yeah i just had a quick look at their website and about one scroll down i came across the phrase 'sub saharan blacks' in bold so my eyes pricked up a bit really. twats


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of masked men dressed in black going around smashing up shops? The imagery is undeniably similar. If that makes you feel uncomfortable then tough shit.


 
I love context free opinions!


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> This would be hilarious if it were satire. But it's not:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261


 
One of the posters on there is Felix Bungay, one of the Libertarian Party gimps from _that_ photo, lol.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 29, 2011)

Dan U said:


> Harry Alderidge
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261#!/harry.aldridge
> 
> ...



Its that the crowd that Fascist Mc Whirter and his brother set up?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> Its that the crowd that Fascist Mc Whirter and his brother set up?


 
Yep.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

peterkro said:


> Is there any actual evidence for this,as a humble electrician I know light bulbs are essentially a vacuum,how the fuck do you inject ammonia into a glass vacuum with out destroying it's structure,it would be no different than ammonia in any other container,a plastic bag or an McDonald's polystyrene container for instance.(of course ammonia would probably melt polystyrene)


 
I mentioned on another thread that I experimented with this sort of thing back when I was a kid. You can inject (through the bayonet cap) a  single syringe-load of liquid into a lightbulb - the vacuum in the bulb in effect helps draw in the fluid. After that, though, you've lost the vacuum and it's extremely difficult to add any more, so at the very most, *IF* lightbulbs were chucked at all, they would have had about 20ml of ammonia in them. As I also mentioned, it's not exactly a quick process, so you'd need an extremely dedicated trouble-maker with a day to waste to produce a dozen of these, let alone enough for a "hail" of lightbulbs to rain down on the coppers.

Mind you, I suppose the "hail" could be like the "hail" of bottles that rained down on coppers after Ian Tomlinson was pushed to the ground, i.e. ONE.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> I'm sure these people are very capable of working out what is avoidance and evasion based on their current understanding of the law, but HMRC make this incredibly difficult by rarely confirming what is or isn't legal behaviour.


 
HMRC enforce statute.
Anyone with a library card or an internet connection can look up tax statutes. HMRC don't need to confirm what is or isn't legal behaviour because that's what accountants and lawyers are paid to do.

Because I'm sure you're aware that the main issue with tax-dodging, at least in terms of tax avoidance schemes, is interpretational: A business pretty much makes a bet that their lawyer's interpretation of tax statutes won't be scrutinised and/or rebutted. Simplifying statute/code won't do anything to stop businesses taking a punt on getting one past HMRC. Having enough staff to police avoidance schemes, however, has been shown to minimise the number of times that business manages to score.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

stephj said:


> One minute you support peaceful occupation and direct action, but not the action/methods of the likes of the Black Bloc, then you're dissing UK Uncuts peaceful actions.


 
He's a Lib-Dem. It's hardly surprising he doesn't know whether he's coming or going!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

southside said:


> There is a danger that the governemt could find themselves not having any business's to tax, They're scared that they will leave the country due to harsh taxation so I'm sceptical how far they will really go with it.


 
The net result of 30 years of businesses threatening to go elsewhere if conditions aren't changed is that fuck all of them have fucked off, even after the few times the government have been harsher on them, rather than feather-bedding and coddling them.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> the blue letter, is it a capital T?


 


Apt that the Lib Dems chose Tory blue for their local communications.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Like I said, I applaud UKuncut and the occupation of Fortnum and Mason, but masked men dressed in black going around smashing shop windows? Looks more like Krystallnacht than a popular movement against tory cuts and it can only alienate support. Sinister stuff.



And yet, for all the melodrama of your post, the only black-garbed people dragging folks off the street were the police.

By the way, _Kristallnacht_ was the destruction of Jewish property in preparation for expropriation of remaining property, and detention of the jewish population, so congratulations on a piss-poor comparison, you dick.



> Resorting to abuse proves that you have no reasoned response to my argument.



And your resorting to melodrama doesn't show that *you* have no argument? 



> I'm not even sure who this Spymaster is to be honest, I don't spend all day with my head buried in this forum. I suppose he might be the petrolhead I had a run in with a couple of years ago.


 
Yep, the petrolhead with more wit than you.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 29, 2011)

"We got drunk, trashed the Ritz & then went down Piccadilly to loot a few items from Fortnums" - Boris Johnson Autobiography in reference to the Bullingdon Club 1986


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

trabant said:


> Broken record. And bringing Kristallnacht into this discussion, priceless.


 
I knew the guy was a _schnorrer_, but now he's shown himself up as a _schlemiel_ too.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 29, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> "We got drunk, trashed the Ritz & then went down Piccadilly to loot a few items from Fortnums" - Boris Johnson Autobiography in reference to the Bullingdon Club 1986


 
Is it definitely from his autobiog? We're discussing it here but can't pin the quote down.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of masked men dressed in black going around smashing up shops? The imagery is undeniably similar. If that makes you feel uncomfortable then tough shit.


 
In all the footage and photographs I've seen of _Kristallnacht_ (and I've seen a lot), I've never seen anyone masked.
They weren't masked because they knew they had the state's approval to do what they were doing, because they knew that the police would stand by while they did it.

Oh, and most of the uniformed types during _Kristallnacht_ were, so history informs us, were wearing brown, not black.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> what a strange world you live in Hertford. Did you see a man at the newsagents negotiating his monthly beano subscription and automatically be reminded of the molotov-ribbetrop pact?


 
Don't fucking exaggerate!! 

It reminded him of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, you twat!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I presume that you, you nutter, have a pic of masked men during  Kristallnacht to back up your comparison?


 
Perhaps, by masked, he means "bare-faced brownshirts in their jodhpurs"?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 29, 2011)

stephj said:


> Is it definitely from his autobiog? We're discussing it here but can't pin the quote down.


Its twending  all over twitter


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 29, 2011)

Couldnt find the previous EMA thread, but a bit of good news anyway:

http://saveema.co.uk/archives/737


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

It's good news in that it shows they can and are being pressured - in terms of what it replaces it's still a disaster.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)




----------



## A Dashing Blade (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> was that the point? the point moon was making was about how people feel when confronted with masked people smashing things- and yes that would be fear, because you'd think they were after you personally. That doesn't translate into the vast majority not condoning it- it might be a valid assertion, I haven't polled the vast majority. But you've made a two-step paralogical leap from one thing to something else


 
Hmmmm, you may think it a "two-step paralogical leap", yet, pound to a pinch of pigshit, bet you'd wriggle out of providing a single-word boolean answer to the question "do you personally think the majority of the population condone the behavior of the couple of hundred rioters", as, lets face it, anyone who answers in the affermative is seriously on planet looney-tune. 

hang on a sec . . . I'm on Urban's P&P boards . . .


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 29, 2011)

A Dashing Blade said:


> Hmmmm, you may think it a "two-step paralogical leap", yet, pound to a pinch of pigshit, bet you'd wriggle out of providing a single-word boolean answer to the question "do you personally think the majority of the population condoned the behavior of the couple of hundred rioters".


 
You provide one, and then back it up with some evidence.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

A Dashing Blade said:


> Hmmmm, you may think it a "two-step paralogical leap", yet, pound to a pinch of pigshit, bet you'd wriggle out of providing a single-word boolean answer to the question "do you personally think the majority of the population condone the behavior of the couple of hundred rioters", as, lets face it, anyone who answers in the affermative is seriously on planet looney-tune.
> 
> hang on a sec . . . I'm on Urban's P&P boards . . .


 

I'd answer that I don't know- I'd be inclined to think not, given the sample of opinions I have. But I'm not so arrogant as to assume that that sample has any basis for making statements about 'the vast majority'. If you want binary choice answers you'll have to look elsewhere I'm afraid. Back to the pink paper with you.


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> A far less nutty comparison is the suffragettes smashing windows on the Strand, Oxford Street and Buck palace. Do the suffragettes scare you Andrew?



"Me Sir, me Sir, please please . . . ."
"Yes Blade . . . "
"Straw man leading to implicit ad hominem Sir"
"Well done Blade"


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 29, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Couldnt find the previous EMA thread, but a bit of good news anyway:
> 
> http://saveema.co.uk/archives/737


 
Battle not war etc 

edit - that was supposed to be a response to BA...


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> And yet, for all the melodrama of your post, the only black-garbed people dragging folks off the street were the police.
> 
> By the way, _Kristallnacht_ was the destruction of Jewish property in preparation for expropriation of remaining property, and detention of the jewish population, so congratulations on a piss-poor comparison, you dick.
> 
> ...



A lot of knickers in twists here, I'm talking about how the actions of 'Black Bloc' must look to the outside world. I know some on the far left get touchy about nazi comparisons but if you can't see the similarity in some of the imagery from last Saturday then you must be either blind, or more likely in denial.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> A far less nutty comparison is the suffragettes smashing windows on the Strand, Oxford Street and Buck palace. Do the suffragettes scare you Andrew?



That sounds like a clutching at straws comparison to me.


----------



## Garek (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A lot of knickers in twists here, I'm talking about how the actions of 'Black Bloc' must look to the outside world. I know some on the far left get touchy about nazi comparisons but if you can't see the similarity in some of the imagery from last Saturday then you must be either blind, or more likely in denial.



I think you are giving the outside world far too little credit. Anyone without half a brain can see the difference between smashed up Jewish shops, sanctioned by the state, against smashed up banks and shops, not sanctioned by the state. 

From wiki



> Jewish homes were ransacked, as were shops, towns and villages, as SA stormtroopers and civilians destroyed buildings with sledgehammers, leaving the streets covered in pieces of smashed windows—the origin of the name "Night of Broken Glass." Ninety-one Jews were killed, and 30,000 Jewish men—a quarter of all Jewish men in Germany—were taken to concentration camps, where they were tortured for months, with over 1,000 of them dying.[2] Around 1,668 synagogues were ransacked, and 267 set on fire. In Vienna alone 95 synagogues or houses of prayer were destroyed.[3]



Are you sure you want to stick with this one?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

in my view the night of the long knives cannot come swiftly enough, andrew.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> That sounds like a clutching at straws comparison to me.


 
Seem like a more apt one Andrew - people smashing windows in support of an idea and against the state. Have you managed to find anything for your mad comparison yet?


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> That sounds like a clutching at straws comparison to me.


 
It's hardly "clutching at straws", friend. It might do you some good to read some British social history of the 19th century instead of dismissing such events for the sake of discursive convenience.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A lot of knickers in twists here, I'm talking about how the actions of 'Black Bloc' must look to the outside world. I know some on the far left get touchy about nazi comparisons but if you can't see the similarity in some of the imagery from last Saturday then you must be either blind, or more likely in denial.



I'm happy with nazis comparisons if they're apt and fitting. If they're hysterical and inaccurate - not so keen.


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Have you managed to find anything for your mad comparison yet?



He's got the class swot on his side, if it helps.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

A Dashing Blade said:


> "Me Sir, me Sir, please please . . . ."
> "Yes Blade . . . "
> "Straw man leading to implicit ad hominem Sir"
> "Well done Blade"


 
Well done weirdo, city lunch is it?


----------



## manny-p (Mar 29, 2011)

shaman75 said:


>




This guys accent does my head in. Is that scottish/american/english public school?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A lot of knickers in twists here, I'm talking about how the actions of 'Black Bloc' must look to the outside world. I know some on the far left get touchy about nazi comparisons but if you can't see the similarity in some of the imagery from last Saturday then you must be either blind, or more likely in denial.


 
Andrew can you clearly spell out the similarities you see in the imagery?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 29, 2011)

Dan U said:


> Harry Alderidge
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261#!/harry.aldridge
> 
> ...


 
The fella behind him in his profile pic was also in 'that picture' with Felix Bungay.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A lot of knickers in twists here, I'm talking about how the actions of 'Black Bloc' must look to the outside world. I know some on the far left get touchy about nazi comparisons but if you can't see the similarity in some of the imagery from last Saturday then you must be either blind, or more likely in denial.


 
Or just not a smearing prick like you.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 29, 2011)

moon23 said:


> Your right masked men going around smashing stuff up looks terrible. Most of the people you are arguing against have probably masked up at some point in their lives, and can't put themselves in the mindset of what most ordinary people think of it.


 
More smears from you eh you little prick? Never 'masked up' in my life on any occasion such as you're referring to.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Andrew can you clearly spell out the similarities you see in the imagery?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



A group of sinister looking thugs dressed in black running around smashing up shops...politically motivated violence....etc etc. It certainly ain't anything like the kind of socialism I signed up to.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

sim667 said:


> It doesnt make anyone feel uncomfortable, it makes you look stupid



Makes _me_ look stupid? I'm not the one trying to apologise for a bunch of thugs running around smashing things up for no logical reason.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Makes _me_ look stupid? I'm not the one trying to apologise for a bunch of thugs running around smashing things up for no logical reason.


 
No, you're the really 'sensible' one making comparisons between a few windows being smashed and the organised and murderous pogrom that was Kristallnacht.....


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

allybaba said:


> This guys accent does my head in. Is that scottish/american/english public school?



Scottish I believe.  Seems to have become 'radicalised' by his experiences of the G20 protest in London.

You've reminded me of the first time I heard of him.

'go home yank'


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of sinister looking thugs dressed in black running around smashing up shops...politically motivated violence....etc etc. It certainly ain't anything like the kind of socialism I signed up to.


 
Similarities that are entirely superficial, then. Rather like your "socialism".


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Makes _me_ look stupid? I'm not the one trying to apologise for a bunch of thugs running around smashing things up for no logical reason.


 
Look you twonk. They didn't smash things up for no logical reason, they smashed up banks as a means of drawing attention to the shocking squeezing of the nation's throats by the banking sector who have then got off scot-free. Makes perfect bloody sense, and as a mum of three primary-age or younger kids I would quite like to smash a few bank windows myself.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of sinister looking thugs dressed in black running around smashing up shops...politically motivated violence....etc etc. It certainly ain't anything like the kind of socialism I signed up to.


 
perhaps you got lost on the way to the recruiting office and ended up at the Church of England?


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> perhaps you got lost on the way to the recruiting office and ended up at the Church of England?


 
From bell-wringing to hand-wringing.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of sinister looking thugs dressed in black running around smashing up shops...politically motivated violence....etc etc. It certainly ain't anything like the kind of socialism I signed up to.


 
Socialism is about being nice to capitalism, bless.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Makes _me_ look stupid? I'm not the one trying to apologise for a bunch of thugs running around smashing things up for no logical reason.


 
a. Im not apologising for any of the actinos undertaken by what you call a 'bunch of thugs'

b. You are however the one comparing said 'bunch of thugs' running around london, poking fun at police, sitting in some stores and chucking a bit of paint around to the first series of events that eventually led to a genocide and gave nazi germany a crash course in eugenics.

I can see the similiarites...... really


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

in fairness nazi eugeniscism was well advanced befor kristellnacht but yes, still a fucking stupid comparison.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of sinister looking thugs dressed in black running around smashing up shops...politically motivated violence....etc etc. It certainly ain't anything like the kind of socialism I signed up to.


 
Is that " national socialism" .. if you're going to use dishonest amalgam tactics re anarchism and fascism


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2011)

Folk moaning about smashed windows & upsetting tiffin at the Ritz lol Fuck off.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 29, 2011)

Funny how after events like this it becomes the civic duty of everybody (especially those on the left) to denounce the "mindless violence". When was the last time that anybody "condemned" egregious corporate human rights abuses or enironmental degregation, or our governments's selling arms and torture equipment to dictators, or the use of child labour, or police brutality or the existence of mass poverty and huge social inequalities? Such things are "bad" of course, but only the subject of "regret", or a "plan" to reduce in the future, or maybe even "an independent inquiry" - never "condemnation". One can never condemn features of life that integral to the natural order of capitalism - that is verboten. Condemnation is the langauge of bourgeois consenus morality and should never be entertained by a true leftist.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2011)

^^ fuckin' Amen to that.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of sinister looking thugs dressed in black running around smashing up shops...politically motivated violence....etc etc. It certainly ain't anything like the kind of socialism I signed up to.


 
Was that selling newspapers on the street and trying to control every protest group going?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 29, 2011)

jeffs post^
[thread done]


----------



## manny-p (Mar 29, 2011)

weepiper said:


> Look you twonk. They didn't smash things up for no logical reason, they smashed up banks as a means of drawing attention to the shocking squeezing of the nation's throats by the banking sector who have then got off scot-free. Makes perfect bloody sense, and as a mum of three primary-age or younger kids I would quite like to smash a few bank windows myself.


 
To be fair a minority of them did. Like knocking bins over for the hell of it and scaring the shit out of the public with firecrackers. But the majority of it was aimed at the banks and other 'smash the rich' targets. Jeff's post is great.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A lot of knickers in twists here, I'm talking about how the actions of 'Black Bloc' must look to the outside world.



In which case I suggest (if you're able) that you read some media from "the outside world".

Strangely enough, while perusing US, Aussie, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Israeli and Ukrainian media, I've found precisely *nothing* that even REMOTELY compares the behaviour and dress of "the black bloc" with the events of _Kristallnacht_.

So, looks like the twisted knickers are the ones you're wearing, you drama queen.



> I know some on the far left get touchy about nazi comparisons...



You don't need to be "on the far left". You could, for example, be a Jew who lost family to the Nazis. 



> but if you can't see the similarity in some of the imagery from last Saturday then you must be either blind, or more likely in denial.


 
No, I can't see it because it doesn't exist, because your comparison is fatuous and hysterical, because once again, you've talked a load of rubbish, and are having to increasingly hysterically defend yourself as posters call you on your bullshit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> That sounds like a clutching at straws comparison to me.


 
That's because you're coming across as (and likely are) an ahistorical idiot.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 29, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Scottish I believe.  Seems to have become 'radicalised' by his experiences of the G20 protest in London.
> 
> You've reminded me of the first time I heard of him.
> 
> 'go home yank'




That was quite funny. He does seem to be abit of an attention seeking whore though.


----------



## nick h. (Mar 29, 2011)

Apols if this has been covered in this humongous thread, but might the Fortnums arrests turn out to be a huge boost to UKUncut's cause? Hopefully it will all backfire on Plod because a top human rights lawyer will save the day, maybe with backing by some of the rich slebs who backed Assange, and UKUncut will win a big legal victory, gaining masses of media examination of their argument, decent PR showing that they are not anarchic but cuddly and constructive, followed by acceptance by middle England and some changes in tax law. 

Or am I dreaming?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2011)

It's a start - http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/blog/a-major-win-for-uk-uncut


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

> Briefly: these news stories about 149 charged over the weekend protests illustrate the problems with conflating figures to produce a compound outcome (this also an issue in some medical research).
> 
> 149 people have been charged.
> 
> ...



http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/conflating-numbers-have-149-violent-protestor


----------



## killer b (Mar 29, 2011)

not even 11.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

I saw one get floored and arrested round the back of west central police station at about half four.

His crime seemed to be wearing black and refusing to give his name.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of sinister looking thugs dressed in black running around smashing up shops...politically motivated violence....etc etc. It certainly ain't anything like the kind of socialism I signed up to.


 
I think you'll find that the "black bloc" are anarchists, so they may not be adherents of any type of socialism that a hysterical booby such as yourself would be acquainted with.


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

allybaba said:


> That was quite funny. He does seem to be abit of an attention seeking whore though.


 
He seems a total cock, tbh - a Laurie Penny in waiting.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Funny how after events like this it becomes the civic duty of everybody (especially those on the left) to denounce the "mindless violence". When was the last time that anybody "condemned" egregious corporate human rights abuses or enironmental degregation, or our governments's selling arms and torture equipment to dictators, or the use of child labour, or police brutality or the existence of mass poverty and huge social inequalities? Such things are "bad" of course, but only the subject of "regret", or a "plan" to reduce in the future, or maybe even "an independent inquiry" - never "condemnation". One can never condemn features of life that integral to the natural order of capitalism - that is verboten. Condemnation is the langauge of bourgeois consenus morality and should never be entertained by a true leftist.


 
Now now Jeff, you should know by now that milksop "socialists" like Andrew Hertford tend to ignore how Capital loads all the external costs of Capitalist production onto the rest of us, how they exploit us, and use the mechanisms of government to keep us in our place.
far better to get het up by a tiny degree of aggro, than to address the real issues!


----------



## Corax (Mar 29, 2011)

past caring said:


> He seems a total cock, tbh - a Laurie Penny in waiting.


 
He's engaging people with the issues tbf.  As long as he doesn't start claiming to be any sort of spokesman for the people then all power to him with that.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 29, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> http://bengoldacre.posterous.com/conflating-numbers-have-149-violent-protestor



http://www.met.police.uk/pressbureau/Bur27/page01.htm

This is the official met police press release about charges - it says 147 charged, 138 of which were fortnum and masons.  one for drunk and disorderly, one for a public order offence.  That leaves 7 (plus 3 cautions for criminal damage) with "violent" charges - 3 assaults on polcie officers, 3 criminal damage and 1 possession of offensive weapon/going equipped for criminal damage.. 

we were so blatantly nicked just to get those numbers up.. 


nick h. - I am hoping that we have a case for wrongful arrest (ianal so don't know).. No idea what the payout for wrongful arrests might be, but 138 of even a couple of hundred pounds is still a fair amount, and would hopefully all get donated to solidarity funds for arestees..


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A lot of knickers in twists here, I'm talking about how the actions of 'Black Bloc' must look to the outside world. I know some on the far left get touchy about nazi comparisons but if you can't see the similarity in some of the imagery from last Saturday then you must be either blind, or more likely in denial.


 
history fail


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> The fella behind him in his profile pic was also in 'that picture' with Felix Bungay.


 
That's Tim Aker I think.


----------



## past caring (Mar 29, 2011)

Corax said:


> He's engaging people with the issues tbf.  As long as he doesn't start claiming to be any sort of spokesman for the people then all power to him with that.


 
"Friends with the Rothschilds. Satanists."

I could forgive it if he'd happened upon 'em by chance and so had to think on his feet - but he clearly didn't. And as for the "Why not vote BNP" comment in response to the "Go home Yank" jibe? 

Sure, nobody comes to these things with ideas full formed, but I've seen him being bigged up in a few places now and fucking irks, to be honest.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 29, 2011)

From the FB link earlier in the thread, check out this peaheaded little cuntjerb:







I want to nick that dweeb's dinner money and donate it to a lesbian Asian hopscotch collective. And then burn him to death forra laff like. 

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261#!/davidbean.org


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2011)

^^ Who's that then?


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 29, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Now now Jeff, you should know by now that milksop "socialists" like Andrew Hertford tend to ignore how Capital loads all the external costs of Capitalist production onto the rest of us, how they exploit us, and use the mechanisms of government to keep us in our place.
> far better to get het up by a tiny degree of aggro, than to address the real issues!



Who are you to define my political beliefs? Here isn't where I'd want to discuss the "real issues" about the cuts, I'd only be agreeing (to perhaps a lesser degree) with everyone else. 

But what a load of shite there's been on this subject this afternoon. Not once has anyone come up with a logical justification for the use of political violence as perpetrated by those 'Black Bloc' twats on Saturday, and when I say that they remind me of nazis, which they do, it's as if I'm committing some kind of heinous blasphemy at high church and am in need of a history lesson (which if you knew me you'd find totally laughable btw). Although it wasn't my intention, I've clearly touched a few nerves. No apologies for that.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 29, 2011)

@ Mr Bishie

Dunno, he was a member in the "march for austerity" Face Book group wank that Steel Icarus posted a link to earlier. He must be destroyed.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 29, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> @ Mr Bishie
> 
> Dunno, he was a member in the "march for austerity" Face Book group wank that Steel Icarus posted a link to earlier. He must be destroyed.



Lots of twittering about this bollocks. I of course am sniping at the silly cunts. Can you get kicked off Twitter for calling people cunts, or is it just threats that'll do it?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 29, 2011)

march for austerity, join the fucking prods then. Everyones mrs sodding beeton now the emperor's nakedness is revealed. Parsimony, thrift and asceticism are toys to these fucking calvin-come-latelies. Only it isn't their own reckless gluttony they complain about is it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> (which if you knew me you'd find totally laughable btw).



Why Andrew?


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> fucking calvin-come-latelies


----------



## teqniq (Mar 29, 2011)

Someone just tweeted this. Bit nuts, if true. I would guess it means something along the lines of a) they're really on the case with the surveillance b) they're pretty pissed off.



> unbelievably have just been stop and searched at walthamstow station for being on trafalgar sq on saturday. I kid you not.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 29, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Who are you to define my political beliefs?



I haven't. I've merely characterised your politics according to your own writings on the forum.



> Here isn't where I'd want to discuss the "real issues" about the cuts, I'd only be agreeing (to perhaps a lesser degree) with everyone else.



Given that you've expressed your thoughts on the "real issues" on other threads, I'm not sure that your conclusion is accurate.



> But what a load of shite there's been on this subject this afternoon. Not once has anyone come up with a logical justification for the use of political violence as perpetrated by those 'Black Bloc' twats on Saturday,



No? Do you not *actually* mean that no-one has come up with reasoning that you'll accept?



> and when I say that they remind me of nazis, which they do, it's as if I'm committing some kind of heinous blasphemy at high church...



You didn't say "they remind me of nazis", you made a direct comparison between the behaviour and dress of "the black bloc" and what occurred on _Kristallnacht_. Now, you may have done this because you're historically ignorant, because you're hopeless at expressing yourself, or because you're a twat, but you did it nonetheless. 



> and am in need of a history lesson (which if you knew me you'd find totally laughable btw).



I don't give a pig's penis if you're known as "Andrew, the Historian of Hertford", your attempted comparison was as risible as it was offensive. 



> Although it wasn't my intention, I've clearly touched a few nerves. No apologies for that.


 
I, for one, don't expect an apology. Your ilk never give them.


----------



## grit (Mar 29, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Now now Jeff, you should know by now that milksop "socialists" like Andrew Hertford tend to ignore how Capital loads all the external costs of Capitalist production onto the rest of us, how they exploit us, and use the mechanisms of government to keep us in our place.
> far better to get het up by a tiny degree of aggro, than to address the real issues!


 
Probably because its a given that the corporate entities are fucking around, everyone knows and expects nothing less. 

People like to hold their peers to a higher standard I'd imagine.

2 wrongs etc etc


----------



## Nice one (Mar 29, 2011)

official arrest figures are out:

147 people charged with offences

    * 138 people charged with aggravated trespass in connection with the incident at Fortnum & Mason
    * 3 people charged with criminal damage
    * 2 people charged with assaulting a police officer
    * 1 person charged with S4 Public Order Act (threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour)
    * 1 person charged with being drunk and disorderly

In custody

    * a 17 year old male accused of possession of an offensive weapon in a public place; and going equipped for criminal damage (he appeared in youth court on the 28th March)
    * a male appeared in court on 28th March charged with violent disorder (S2 Public Order Act) and assault on police

Not yet charged

    * 47 people are bailed to return to police stations during April pending further inquiries. Seven of those are connected with Fortnum and Mason, 40 in connection with other incidents.

Other

    * 3 people were cautioned for criminal damage
    * 2 people released with no further action

http://www.freedompress.org.uk/news/2011/03/29/march-26th-legal-update/
http://content.met.police.uk/News/Summary-of-arrests-following-disorder-in-central-London/1260268752820/1257246745756


----------



## teqniq (Mar 29, 2011)

Oh and a friend of mine who was there is suffering from concussion after being 'kettled'. Apparently it's gotten worse so lots of people are advising her to visit A&E. So here's wishing her well.


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 29, 2011)

teqniq said:


> Oh and a friend of mine who was there is suffering from concussion after being 'kettled'. Apparently it's gotten worse so lots of people are advising her to visit A&E. So here's wishing her well.


 Yes indeed. Not pleasant at all.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 29, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Scottish I believe.  Seems to have become 'radicalised' by his experiences of the G20 protest in London.
> 
> You've reminded me of the first time I heard of him.
> 
> 'go home yank'




The Zionist, Rothschilds, Satanists stuff is sailing too close to anti-semitic conspiraloon stuff for my liking.


I'm sure the bloke who said "go home yank" was one of the undercover cops from a You Tube vid that was posted the other day, can't find link though.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 29, 2011)

BigTom said:


> 1 possession of offensive weapon/going equipped for criminal damage..


 
I believe I may have seen that nicking - about half two on William Street/St Martin Place near Trafalgar Square. Some older hippie-looking guy was walking by a very bored-looking half-serial of TSG parked up opposite the Chandos. 

For some reason they gave him a spin, apparently found a Stanley knife in his bag. As I understand it in his attempt to explain to the half-dozen riot cops crowded round him, who had already handcuffed him painfully behind his back, his legitimate reason for having it (in his bag, I believe), he made the faux pas of calling them 'arseholes'. Whilst accurate, it might not have been expedient. 

He was then carted off to the vans where, in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound style he hawked a deliciously long gob at his captors, which arced through several feet. I couldn't see if it hit any celebrity thugs like Delroy or Simon though.

ETA 

Looking at the breakdown in Nice One's post, either they dropped the offensive weapon, or they didn't count him in those stats, as if this fellow was seventeen years old, then he'd lived a most troubled life.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 29, 2011)

Never trust a hippy called Stanley!


----------



## BigTom (Mar 29, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> I believe I may have seen that nicking - about half two on William Street/St Martin Place near Trafalgar Square. Some older hippie-looking guy was walking by a very bored-looking half-serial of TSG parked up opposite the Chandos.
> 
> For some reason they gave him a spin, apparently found a Stanley knife in his bag. As I understand it in his attempt to explain to the half-dozen riot cops crowded round him, who had already handcuffed him painfully behind his back, his legitimate reason for having it (in his bag, I believe), he made the faux pas of calling them 'arseholes'. Whilst accurate, it might not have been expedient.
> 
> ...



Hopefully this is one of the two people released without charge, lol at the gobbing part of your account.  I hope he is fine and was released having given a legitimate reason for having the stanley knife.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> The Zionist, Rothschilds, Satanists stuff is sailing too close to anti-semitic conspiraloon stuff for my liking.
> 
> 
> I'm sure the bloke who said "go home yank" was one of the undercover cops from a You Tube vid that was posted the other day, can't find link though.


 
yes.  i recognised him.  not convinced it's actually him shouting the yank stuff tho.

but i was a bit surprised to see him in that film...  undercover cop or something deeper?


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 29, 2011)

> *Press photographer attacked by riot police in London on March 26*
> 
> On March 26 during mass protests in London I was targeted by police whilst trying to do my job as a press photographer. In order of seriousness, I was hit with a baton above my left knee, arrested and de-arrested with shocking treatment as a bank was smashed up just feet away, had two lens hoods broken by police aiming for my cameras with their batons, and had riot shields pushed into my face causing bruising to my nose.
> 
> ...



http://www.demotix.com/news/643449/press-photographer-attacked-riot-police-london-march-26


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 30, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...your attempted comparison was as risible as it was offensive.



Aaaw poor you. Did I offend your delicate sensitivities?

They acted like a bunch of nazis, _that_ is what was offensive.

Get over it.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 30, 2011)




----------



## Random (Mar 30, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Aaaw poor you. Did I offend your delicate sensitivities?
> 
> They acted like a bunch of nazis, _that_ is what was offensive.
> 
> Get over it.


 _You're_ acting like a bunch of nazis.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 30, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Aaaw poor you. Did I offend your delicate sensitivities?
> 
> They acted like a bunch of nazis, _that_ is what was offensive.
> 
> Get over it.



Andrew you think they acted like Nazis, but you haven't given any specifics, beyond broken windows, that they share with the perpetrators of Kristallnacht. If I was being as provocative as you seem to want to be, I could point out that fire-fighters also break windows and wear big boots, but that doesn't make them fascist stormtroopers. It's also been pointed out that there are actually more similarities with the actions of militant suffragettes than brown shirts. Can you really not see why people find your attempted ahistorical analogy both inaccurate and offensive?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 30, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Andrew you think they acted like Nazis, but you haven't given any specifics, beyond broken windows, that they share with the perpetrators of Kristallnacht. If I was being as provocative as you seem to want to be, I could point out that fire-fighters also break windows and wear big boots, but that doesn't make them fascist stormtroopers. It's also been pointed out that there are actually more similarities with the actions of militant suffragettes than brown shirts. Can you really not see why people find your attempted ahistorical analogy both inaccurate and offensive?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



Well said reasonable Louis - meanwhile I'm getting my bricks ready to heave at yonder Andy a la black bloc.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 30, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Well said reasonable Louis - meanwhile I'm getting my bricks ready to heave at yonder Andy a la black bloc.


 
fascist


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 30, 2011)

Very good, I see 4 undercover in that video below. Do people agree on that number?




shaman75 said:


> yes.  i recognised him.  not convinced it's actually him shouting the yank stuff tho.
> 
> but i was a bit surprised to see him in that film...  undercover cop or something deeper?


----------



## The Black Hand (Mar 30, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> fascist



Its very noticeable that the right are using that term (in the media and bb) as abuse against communists and anarchists in a very crass and ignorant way. Its a sign of losing the political battle of ideas, expediency and stupidity.


----------



## Garek (Mar 30, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> blah blah


 
You're an idiot. 



What do people think of what has happened to UKUncut? A chance to reach out to them try and build solidarity? Or are they too stuck in their Gaurdinista bubble. SolFed had a good open letter to them. It seems like a completely tactical blunder on the filth's part either way.


----------



## xes (Mar 30, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Aaaw poor you. Did I offend your delicate sensitivities?
> 
> They acted like a bunch of nazis, _that_ is what was offensive.
> 
> Get over it.


 you really are a complete fucking idiot, aren't you?

100% braindead troll scum. Fuck off and die.


----------



## strung out (Mar 30, 2011)

The Black Hand said:


> Very good, I see 4 undercover in that video below. Do people agree on that number?


 
6


----------



## rekil (Mar 30, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Andrew you think they acted like Nazis, but you haven't given any specifics, beyond broken windows, that they share with the perpetrators of Kristallnacht.


I was told once by a 'nazis were lefties' loon, an economist, that the nazis hated the jews because they had all the money in Germany. Lefties hate the rich so they're basically nazis. 

It's some sort of rubbish like that I'll warrant.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 30, 2011)

copliker said:


> I was told once by a 'nazis were lefties' loon, an economist, that the nazis hated the jews because they had all the money in Germany. Lefties hate the rich so they're basically nazis.
> 
> It's some sort of rubbish like that I'll warrant.



I was once told by an American that Nazis were far left because they were National SOCIALISTS = the same as ObaMAO.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 30, 2011)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-protest-scenes-that-left-benghazi-in-the-shade-2256542.html
Has anyone posted this excellent Mark Steel article yet?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> I was once told by an American that Nazis were far left because they were National SOCIALISTS = the same as ObaMAO.


 

There's loads of that kind of crap on Twitter


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 30, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> There's loads of that kind of crap on Twitter


 
I know. I've only just gone on it, really. Some fuck linked to the story about the 5 year old girl getting shot by writing "Great. More diversity". You can't argue with people like that. You can just kick their teeth through the back of their heads.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> I know. I've only just gone on it, really. Some fuck linked to the story about the 5 year old girl getting shot by writing "Great. More diversity". You can't argue with people like that. You can just kick their teeth through the back of their heads.



innit


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 30, 2011)

when i was walking round the march, was there a man trying (and failing) to start a chant of "4 more years"


----------



## past caring (Mar 30, 2011)

copliker said:


> I was told once by a 'nazis were lefties' loon, an economist, that the nazis hated the jews because they had all the money in Germany. Lefties hate the rich so they're basically nazis.
> 
> It's some sort of rubbish like that I'll warrant.



I was wrong. Hertford isn't Spymaster without the wit - he's a slightly more articulate pbman.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 30, 2011)

Martin Rowson identifies the real vandals -


----------



## Corax (Mar 30, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Aaaw poor you. Did I offend your delicate sensitivities?
> 
> They acted like a bunch of nazis, _that_ is what was offensive.
> 
> Get over it.


 
Your mum's a nazi.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 30, 2011)

BTW - I thought the women from UK uncut who was interviewed on newsnight did a pretty good job. The interviewer was a dick - just repeatedly  demanding that she condem the violence whilst UKunct women was refusing to accept the premise of the question. Far better then if she tried to distant herself from the aggro and condem the black bloc. 

From what I saw on the day, I didn't hear or see a single person tut tutting or criticising the property damage, or even the bottles thrown at the cops - I certinaly saw a few thousand people cheering them on. Also people at my workplace - not activists or political people - thought attacking the banks was either funny or at least partly justified. Also the numbers of people on here moangin about vandals etc seems much lower then is normal. Straws in the wind and all that but still - 

I suspect that the media and poilticians with their chorus of pompous, chest puffing condemnation (i.e. newsnight stating without a shred of evidence- 'the peaceful marchers on the TUC demo were outraged by the actions of the violent minority' 'a huge own goal for uk uncut') and their attempts to depict the more radical elements as totally seperate to the mainstream anti-cuts movement are out of step with signifiencet and growing segment of public opinion.


----------



## Garek (Mar 30, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> I suspect that the media and poilticians with their chorus of pompous, chest puffing condemnation (i.e. newsnight stating without a shred of evidence- 'the peaceful marchers on the TUC demo were outraged by the actions of the violent minority' 'a huge own goal for uk uncut') and their attempts to depict the more radical elements as totally seperate to the mainstream anti-cuts movement are out of step with signifiencet and growing segment of public opinion.



I think what they are forgetting is that millions of people in every corner of the country are seeing cuts that directly effect them. The anger goes to a very local level and I think they are underestimating that. Their pompousness will grate agimnst those who are seeing their librarys closed down, youth centres closed etc. Millions of little stories and discussion people will tell each other, building into a critical mass of fucked offness.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 30, 2011)

How long did people occupy Hyde Park for?


----------



## joustmaster (Mar 30, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> How long did people occupy Hyde Park for?


 
is occupy the right word?


----------



## Onket (Mar 30, 2011)

There was a plan to occupy the park after the speeches, etc. I don't know if it went ahead and if so for how long.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 30, 2011)

Garek said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> 
> 
> What do people think of what has happened to UKUncut? A chance to reach out to them try and build solidarity? Or are they too stuck in their Gaurdinista bubble. SolFed had a good open letter to them. It seems like a completely tactical blunder on the filth's part either way.


 
I'd say they can't be arsed with all the infighting between left parties over when to act, the union questions and all that. As it is they present an action based alternative. People want to DO something, not argue over the correct path towards an ideological togetherness which preludes action. UKUncut provide that. People like that. They're showing how to do it without all the crap.


----------



## Garek (Mar 30, 2011)

Balbi said:


> I'd say they can't be arsed with all the infighting between left parties over when to act, the union questions and all that. As it is they present an action based alternative. People want to DO something, not argue over the correct path towards an ideological togetherness which preludes action. UKUncut provide that. People like that. They're showing how to do it without all the crap.


 
Can't be arsed with infighting? So why do they condemn those they should be in solidarity with? Providing an alternative is one thing, but criticising others for different methods is quite another.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 30, 2011)

Garek said:


> Can't be arsed with infighting? So why do they condemn those they should be in solidarity with? Providing an alternative is one thing, but criticising others for different methods is quite another.


 
Think you'll find on Newsnight the ukuncut lady refused to condemn the violence.


----------



## Garek (Mar 30, 2011)

Balbi said:


> Think you'll find on Newsnight the ukuncut lady refused to condemn the violence.


 
I was thinking of others. There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger coming from people involved with UKUncut. 

I'll look up that Newsnight interview.

EDIT: Actually re-reading maybe it against the media confusing them with others.


----------



## Balbi (Mar 30, 2011)

That's new, for the media


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 30, 2011)

Garek said:


> I was thinking of others. There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger coming from people involved with UKUncut.


 
If you're thinking of who I'm thinking of, she's not particularly well-able to think in a straight line politically anyway, so I wouldn't be too bothered  The majority of serious UK-Uncut people seem to be getting the balance about right, it's mostly the media which are looking to create divisions, but only a minority of UK-Uncut types who are really falling for it.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 30, 2011)

> *UK Uncut arrests threaten future protests, lawyer warns*
> 
> Matt Foot, solicitor at Birnberg Pierce, says the detention of 145 activists will 'threaten the right to peacefully protest'



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/30/uk-uncut-arrests-protests


----------



## Garek (Mar 30, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> If you're thinking of who I'm thinking of, she's not particularly well-able to think in a straight line politically anyway, so I wouldn't be too bothered  The majority of serious UK-Uncut people seem to be getting the balance about right, it's mostly the media which are looking to create divisions, but only a minority of UK-Uncut types who are really falling for it.


 
I was thinking up some of some of the comments I am reading in response to SolFed (on their site). Interesting discussion on there going with a range of opinions.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 30, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> yes.  i recognised him.  not convinced it's actually him shouting the yank stuff tho.
> 
> but i was a bit surprised to see him in that film...  undercover cop or something deeper?



Special Branch maybe?

(does Special Branch still exist?)


----------



## Garek (Mar 30, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Special Branch maybe?
> 
> (does Special Branch still exist?)


 
Yep. In London it is SO15.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Mar 30, 2011)

Just read the Graun article - Theresa May's less than subtle implications that UKUncut are "violent" seems to be a) a case of bad-jacketing (quel surprise) and b) indicate to me that the idea of UKUncut being targeted by the state seems to be less idle speculation and more concrete certainty.  Whatever, the state looks more than content to criminalise peaceful direct action - I wouldn't be wildly surprised if they end up being proscribed too.  Doubtless we'll be seeing "evidence" of their "economic terrorist" links next...


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 30, 2011)

Onket said:


> There was a plan to occupy the park after the speeches, etc. I don't know if it went ahead and if so for how long.


 
Found this:



> Following the (reported) half a million strong march, a handful of people occupied Hyde Park by Speakers corner in a legal land claim with the intention to squat the land until the demands of the (reported) half a million marchers are met.
> 
> By invoking article 61 of the Magna Carta law this made the subject of clearing the site an issue for the House of Parliament and a matter for the courts. Our legal right to occupy the site i...n a gesture of peaceful protest was fully within the letter of the law however as of noon on the 28th march the police have stormed the site, confiscated all equipment and three free men who were guarding the site have been arrested.
> 
> ...



http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=193255420712630


----------



## killer b (Mar 30, 2011)

anyone invoking the magna carta is automatically a massive bellend. as well as woefully misinformed.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 30, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> If you're thinking of who I'm thinking of, she's not particularly well-able to think in a straight line politically anyway, so I wouldn't be too bothered  The majority of serious UK-Uncut people seem to be getting the balance about right, it's mostly the media which are looking to create divisions, but only a minority of UK-Uncut types who are really falling for it.


 
Yeah, I think this is fair, I don't see the problem with distinguishing between ukuncut and black bloc as ahving different tactics, and the possibility that there might be disagreement on the value of those tactics (I'm not sure there was any real tactical value in smashing windows on saturday to be honest), without any need for anyone to condemn the property destrction that occured.

At the same time, I think there is value in making the point that of the 147 charged, 138 were peaceful protesters at fortnum and mason and that theresa may is talking out of her arse when she claims the arrest figures show that people acting violently will be punished.. does this imply that I want to distance myself from those attacking property? I'm not sure - distinguish certainly, distance don't know.

Perhaps this just has value for me (and the others who were arrested at f&m) in terms of reducing the chances of my case making it to court / making the police look foolish for arresting us all when there were other people who had done clearly more arrestable offences they didn't get.


I ahve started feeling a bit concerned that I should not be making the effort to get it noted that in fact only 7 people were charged for violent offences because it does highlight divisions in the anti-cuts movment that aren't really there - I am perfectly ok with people attacking property (as long as it is targetted - santander is ok because although that bank didn't disgrace itself in the crisis, it is still part of the banking system, but I read that ppl in bristol attacked an rbs branch on saturday - fine, but also employees cars which assuming the employees are shop floor workers I don't think it's right).

There is a slight gap in that I feel like the black bloc were doing more of an anti-capitalist action, whereas ukuncut was anti-cuts.  As an anti-capitalist I have no issues with that, and ime most of the other ppl I have done actions with would also be anti-capitalist, but that is certainly not true for every ukuncut activist, some (perhaps many, I have only a small group in birmingham to draw my experiences from) are simply anti cuts and are reformist socialists or left-liberal types.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 30, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Aaaw poor you. Did I offend your delicate sensitivities?



Andrew, this isn't about me, it's about your stupidity in making a comparison so crass that at least a dozen posters remarked on that crassness.



> They acted like a bunch of nazis, _that_ is what was offensive.



So you keep saying. So you keep failing to substantiate beyond your hysterical rhetoric.



> Get over it.


 
Ah! The eternal cry of the self-righteous halfwit!


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Mar 30, 2011)

Just found this on the Graun site  - interesting piece from an arrested UKUncut person:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2011/mar/29/police-uk-uncut

This paragraph in particular is rather striking:



> A very senior officer in my station admitted to my parents that he regretted having to charge the protesters on the orders of Scotland Yard: he said they all seemed like "nice people", and that he suspected the charges were politically motivated. These sentiments were echoed by other officers who kept distinguishing us from "proper criminals". Another senior officer told me he suspected that it wasn't so much a case of legality, but that UK Uncut had upset people who were that little bit too rich; that little bit too powerful. Some police officers, I've been told, even advised protesters about constructing a defence.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 31, 2011)

Another toryboy wankstain attending the "Rally Against Debt":







Any Urbs who are gonna be in London on Saturday May 14 and who are good with a camera should attend this rally. Would be good to get some photos of these good-for-nothing tory turds so we can have a laff at them looking like twats and arses. Prizes will be offered to anybody who can take a picture that tops _that_ classic photo of "the fwee market four"...


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 31, 2011)

Wonder how they will be policed...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 31, 2011)

Cunt:






Cunt:






Cunt:






Cunt:






Cunt:


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 31, 2011)

Cunt:






Cunts:






Cunt:


----------



## DeadRussian (Mar 31, 2011)

Oh look liberal conspiracy annoyance Sunny Hundal is now a tout. be aware.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

What a gimp.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

There's a rally against debt? How does that work? It will presumably cost something to police this rally, surely?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 31, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> There's a rally against debt? How does that work? It will presumably cost something to police this rally, surely?



I think the Met might be a bit busy with the FA Cup Final that day. Not that they'd want it policing, the plod being paid by THE STATE and all that. I've been giving the cunts a right round of fucks on Twitter, along with loads of other people. They've also had their Facebook page trolled so hard they've had to make it private, hee hee.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

Where can I find more information about this rally? I'm in a bit of debt myself you see - it's about time someone protested against it ...


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 31, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> I think the Met might be a bit busy with the FA Cup Final that day. Not that they'd want it policing, the plod being paid by THE STATE and all that. I've been giving the cunts a right round of fucks on Twitter, along with loads of other people. They've also had their Facebook page trolled so hard they've had to make it private, hee hee.


 
police it? More than 200 people would be a shock, surely? Bet Tories will be delighted to see a demonstration of how few people actively support them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 31, 2011)

I whole heartedly support this march against the debt these toryboys owe the proleteriat for near constant misappropriation of our.....wait, they're marching for something else aren't they


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 31, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I whole heartedly support this march against the debt these toryboys owe the proleteriat for near constant misappropriation of our.....wait, they're marching for something else aren't they



I think it's something like more children up chimneys and less darkies on the telly.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 31, 2011)

http://twitter.com/#!/UKCut


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 31, 2011)

Hundal once said "all brown people should vote conservative" and then he backed the libdems, then called for a hung parliament and now he's supporting labour again. He is a tosser.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 31, 2011)

He's also responsible for Penny. He's a cunt.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 31, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Hundal once said "all brown people should vote conservative" and then he backed the libdems, then called for a hung parliament and now he's supporting labour again. He is a tosser.


 
is there a more pathetic specimen than the "swing voter". Tribalism I can follow - but actually thinking the parties change in any meaningful way between elections?

Ooh, I think I'll give the other team a go!


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 31, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> police it? More than 200 people would be a shock, surely? Bet Tories will be delighted to see a demonstration of how few people actively support them.


 
Facebook group had over 800 people attending last night. Felix, Tim, Nic and that other one will probably be there. Could be a laff like.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

It's that guy from the picture isn't it? Does he always wear the same clothes? Obviously capitalism isn't working for him.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Mar 31, 2011)

He can't even afford a new wig.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 31, 2011)

Sorry hang on, the last page is blocked by work so i cant work out what you're all talking about...... is it a bunch of tories campaigning against being in debt?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Mar 31, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Facebook group had over 800 people attending last night. Felix, Tim, Nic and that other one will probably be there. Could be a laff like.




yeah, but most of them won't actually go, will they.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 31, 2011)

sim667 said:


> Sorry hang on, the last page is blocked by work so i cant work out what you're all talking about...... is it a bunch of tories campaigning against being in debt?


 
http://rallyagainstdebt.org/


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 31, 2011)

i've heard the black suit bloc are planning to go down and smash up some street cleaners carts to get the media interested.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 31, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Facebook group had over 800 people attending last night. Felix, Tim, Nic and that other one will probably be there. Could be a laff like.




It looks like one of those videos where some off-screen nutter's got a gun at his head. I'm sorry, he's entitled to his opinion, but mine is that he's a cunt and I'd like to head his nose through the back of his skull.


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

I quite fancy going to this.......


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

It looks like they are deleting all the lefties' comments on the facebook page.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Another toryboy wankstain attending the "Rally Against Debt":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps some sprightly publicly-spirited people can dress up in para-military garb emblazoned with a "ShitWatch" logo and take stills and video footage of the marchers in an intimidating manner?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Facebook group had over 800 people attending last night. Felix, Tim, Nic and that other one will probably be there. Could be a laff like.




I see that he's been to the Quentin Letts school of "putting your point across emphatically by nodding your head and sneering at the camera".

What a fine specimen he is.

Of how scum rises, like.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> It looks like they are deleting all the lefties' comments on the facebook page.


 
No sense of humour, these Randists.


----------



## Dan U (Mar 31, 2011)

i actually want to go and call these people massive cunts to their faces

it's not often i feel the urge to swear at someone directly not

a. related to me
b. an Met Police employee


----------



## Dan U (Mar 31, 2011)

i might invite the 5 hard working, life long public sector employees whose leaving speech i just attended to join me.

one of them would knock them teh sparko i reckon, verbally at least. fearsome woman, in the best possible way.

shower of cunts.


----------



## YouSir (Mar 31, 2011)

I might make up a banner and head along if I'm not working, 'What a bunch of sad bastards' perhaps, could be a nice day out.


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

I feel a plan taking shape....


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

When I first saw the Felix and friends picture and stuff I honestly thought it was a clever parody.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

they keep deleting all my comments and leaving the stupid left-wing ones up.


----------



## trabant (Mar 31, 2011)

apologies if this has already been put up.. an interview with two people from the black bloc on saturday. Just avoid the comments yeah?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/31/black-bloc-anti-cuts-protest

I did cringe at the "Anarchists like to be in control" pseudo-pun. Must have been a hit at dinner parties.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 31, 2011)

it's good that all these rich toffs are so concerned about paying off the debt.

a few suited people in the crowd with 'raise our taxes' placards should help.  maybe some calling for police pay and pensions to be cut.

it all helps.


----------



## Garek (Mar 31, 2011)

trabant said:


> apologies if this has already been put up.. an interview with two people from the black bloc on saturday. Just avoid the comments yeah?
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/31/black-bloc-anti-cuts-protest
> 
> I did cringe at the "Anarchists like to be in control" pseudo-pun. Must have been a hit at dinner parties.


 
Cheers for posting that. Makes a good read.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Mar 31, 2011)

Garek said:


> Cheers for posting that. Makes a good read.


 
I had doubts about some bits - this, for example:




			
				anarchists in the Guardian said:
			
		

> As people saw others in black, they changed into black themselves. Some marchers even left the protest to buy black clothing.



Did that happen? Anyone know? Sounds a bit like over-egging it.


----------



## sim667 (Mar 31, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps some sprightly publicly-spirited people can dress up in para-military garb emblazoned with a "ShitWatch" logo and take stills and video footage of the marchers in an intimidating manner?


 
I'd do that


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 31, 2011)

found this on the occupy trafalgar square facebook page...

http://policeforthepeople.org/


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 31, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> found this on the occupy trafalgar square facebook page...
> 
> http://policeforthepeople.org/



Hmmm



> Reinvestigate 9/11
> 9/11 Truth Action


----------



## BigTom (Mar 31, 2011)

I'd love to go to the rally for the debt thingy it's a shame my court date isn't a day later, if I was in court on the firday I'd def. stay overnight and go to this on the saturday, but I don't think I can afford to travel down to london on the thursday, back for work on friday and then back down again.
Hope it gets trolled to fuck irl though.

One good thing about this is that when idiots are saying oh well 250,000 people is only a tiny bit of the population, so therefore nearly everyone else supports the cuts, you can point to a couple of hundred people turning up to an event in support of it.


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> found this on the occupy trafalgar square facebook page...
> 
> http://policeforthepeople.org/


 
Along similar lines, I've been mulling over the idea of creating an Anarchist Police Federation website.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 31, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> I had doubts about some bits - this, for example:
> 
> 
> 
> Did that happen? Anyone know? Sounds a bit like over-egging it.


 

Yeah, from the Penny school of over doing it- by lunchtime leaving the march to get some black clothes was not an option unless you wanted to spend 3 hours fighting through the mass to do so.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 31, 2011)

More on that Rally Against Debt here from our favourite Randist, Dan Hannan


> Where is the British tea party? Part of the problem, of course, is that *people with jobs generally have better things to do than protest.*
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100082058/rally-against-debt-14-may/



My bold. "People with jobs have better things to do than protest"? This fucker really needs a good kicking.

I think the size of this rally will be small. One thing is for certain, it will get glowing coverage in the media. This is an idea that's come from the States, where such things are portrayed as 'grassroots'. Of course, they are nothing of the sort. 

From the charmingly named Liberal Vision


> Protest marches are rarely a very effective way to change public opinion. Most look self-serving, some get hi-jacked by violent minorities. They act more as rallying points for the already convinced rather than ‘could be persuaded’.
> http://www.liberal-vision.org/2011/03/30/rally-against-debt/



The writer clearly has a selective memory.

I wonder if Hannan is going to address the 50 or so people who are planning to attend?

I will be there to give these pencil necks a hard time.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 31, 2011)

DeadRussian said:


> Oh look liberal conspiracy annoyance Sunny Hundal is now a tout. be aware.
> 
> View attachment 14515


 
Hundal = total cunt


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

Fucker. I worked 42 hours the week of the demo, at the end of which I was completely dead on my feet. Some would also say that people with real jobs have better things to do than watch animals be tortured to death and spend the entire week writing blog posts.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

@ Dotcommie. Yeah I'd like to see how they managed that ! Given that it took about an hour for someone buying a bacon sandwich on the other side of the road to get back to our group ...


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

"people with jobs have better things to do". Erm, remind me what he does again.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 31, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> "people with jobs have better things to do". Erm, remind me what he does again.



Yep, trust Hannan to come out with a line like that. He doesn't seem to meet people outside of his social circle. Which isn't particularly surprising. Only to be expected from a worshipper of Rand.


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

Does anyone have any recipes for getting eggs to go off more quickly? Would drilling a tiny hole do it? Is it even possible to drill a tiny hole?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 31, 2011)

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/344209-Rotten-eggs


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

Many thanks!


----------



## TopCat (Mar 31, 2011)

hehehehe


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

trabant said:


> apologies if this has already been put up.. an interview with two people from the black bloc on saturday. Just avoid the comments yeah?
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/31/black-bloc-anti-cuts-protest
> 
> I did cringe at the "Anarchists like to be in control" pseudo-pun. Must have been a hit at dinner parties.


 
From the comments:



> For the sake of argument, if I wanted to leave your [communist anarchist] society because I don't like the beliefs and set up a corporation that sold food at a cheaper price than you could produce it for and I'm not using force, coercion or deceit, I just happen to be very good at producing food., what would you do ?


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

Dan U said:


> i actually want to go and call these people massive cunts to their faces
> 
> it's not often i feel the urge to swear at someone directly not
> 
> ...



Yeah, I've been tempted too.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

utter cunts, the lot of 'em

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-Against-Debt/215405205140114?ref=ts


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

I really do think this has the makings of a P&P beano - at least for those London based?


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

When is it, april 14th? i'll be up for that


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

14th _May_.

Lots of time for eggs to ripen.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

I'd love to come lol.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 31, 2011)

The posters on that.facebook page look like proper dicks.

Middle class herberts versus the black bloc sounds like fun.


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

past caring said:


> I really do think this has the makings of a P&P beano - at least for those London based?


 
*Baby-Eating Internet Anarchists Attack Peaceful Rally*


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 31, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> The posters on that.facebook page look like proper dicks.
> 
> Middle class herberts versus the black bloc sounds like fun.


 
Aren't the black bloc middle class themselves?


----------



## manny-p (Mar 31, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Aren't the black bloc middle class themselves?


 
Some are some ain't.


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Aren't the black bloc middle class themselves?



Who you calling middle class? This was my fucking idea.


----------



## DrRingDing (Mar 31, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Aren't the black bloc middle class themselves?


 
Stop it.


----------



## Blagsta (Mar 31, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Some are some ain't.


 
The one person I know who was involved certainly isn't middle class.


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Aren't the black bloc middle class themselves?


 
And thugs.

Or is it a mixture of the MC and thugs, separately?  The middle class can't be thugs surely?


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

Fuck's sake - I haven't invited the black bloc.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 31, 2011)

Corax said:


> And thugs.
> 
> Or is it a mixture of the MC and thugs, separately?  The middle class can't be thugs surely?


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

past caring said:


> Fuck's sake - I haven't invited the black bloc.


 
You should get on with it sharpish if you want to get them to rsvp in time.  Riddled with bureaucracy that organisation.


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

frogwoman said:


>


 
No no no.  Those fine young men were 'high-spirited'.  Totally different thing altogether.

Not convinced they're middle-class either tbh...


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)

Corax said:


> You should get on with it sharpish if you want to get them to rsvp in time.  Riddled with bureaucracy that organisation.



Do you have any contact details?


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2011)

past caring said:


> Do you have any contact details?


 
I always just go through directory enquiries.


----------



## past caring (Mar 31, 2011)




----------



## shaman75 (Apr 1, 2011)

http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=178345922213488


> *A Rally AGAINST "the Rally Against Debt"*
> 
> Time:	14 May · 11:00 - 13:00
> 
> ...


----------



## Kizmet (Apr 1, 2011)

Corax said:


> You should get on with it sharpish if you want to get them to rsvp in time.  Riddled with bureaucracy that organisation.


 
Surely it's a dis-organisation of anarchists?


----------



## The Black Hand (Apr 1, 2011)

Corax said:


> No no no.  Those fine young men were 'high-spirited'.  Totally different thing altogether.
> 
> Not convinced they're middle-class either tbh...


 
Yes, these are the ruling classes.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 1, 2011)

past caring said:


> Fuck's sake - I haven't invited the black bloc.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> The one person I know who was involved certainly isn't middle class.


 
Mais oui


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

There's now a UK Pro Cuts organisation on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/UKProCutsOrganisation
with a grand total of 64 people liking it


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> There's now a UK Pro Cuts organisation on Facebook
> https://www.facebook.com/UKProCutsOrganisation
> with a grand total of 64 people liking it


 
LOL @ http://www.facebook.com/bolshynickchew/posts/208907979143776



> Thank heavens at last for a sane rational group to oppose those whinging lefties and all the trotskyist nonsense bandied around in the press. I can hand on heart say that I for one welcome the cuts. Why should I have tgo pay for things like education and the NHS, after all tarquin and Jocasta board and my directorship of Vodaphone mean we get free BUPA for the family. I welcome the governments announcement to remove the 50% tax on earnings as some of my junior colleagues actually pay that. Fortunately Iam registered in jersy, with a secondary trust in the british virgin islands and havent actually paid any UK taxes in over a decade...........


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Yeah, from the Penny school of over doing it- by lunchtime leaving the march to get some black clothes was not an option unless you wanted to spend 3 hours fighting through the mass to do so.


 
It did happen though. Just not the way the media reported it:



> On March 26th – for all these reasons mentioned – we formed up with the radical workers block on the South London feeder march. At Trafalgar Square many of us broke from the main march, joining the Black Bloc.
> 
> Open Letter to Solfed and UK Uncut from Brighton & Lewes Uncut


----------



## nick h. (Apr 1, 2011)

> Thank heavens at last for a sane rational group to oppose those whinging lefties and all the trotskyist nonsense bandied around in the press. I can hand on heart say that *I for one welcome our new rosy-cheeked overlords*. Why should I have tgo pay for things like education and the NHS, after all tarquin and Jocasta board and my directorship of Vodaphone mean we get free BUPA for the family. I welcome the governments announcement to remove the 50% tax on earnings as some of my junior colleagues actually pay that. Fortunately Iam registered in jersy, with a secondary trust in the british virgin islands and havent actually paid any UK taxes in over a decade...........



Corrected


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> There's now a UK Pro Cuts organisation on Facebook
> https://www.facebook.com/UKProCutsOrganisation
> with a grand total of 64 people liking it


 
And a @UKCut on Twitter. Happy trolling. 

I'd suggest that the counter demo takes it seriously as a rally against debt - given the recent revelations about what Osborne's Plan A for growth is really. It's a golden opportunity to educate people about this stuff and take the piss out of some UKIPers at the same time.

They have no answers - I've been engaging them with 'educational' materials on Twitter and they cannot answer a question - they just change the question every time the propaganda manual comes up blank.

We should put some educational materials together - a FAQ format would work well for large numbers of activists. We need people out there explaining exactly why they're wrong.

This article is an excellent start - superb linkage back to decades worth of research damning the austerity lie. It started under Hoover - who caused the Great Depression - as did the "trickle down" meme, I found out the other day.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

ymu said:


> And a @UKCut on Twitter. Happy trolling.



I ended up deleting my Twitter account as I was getting drawn into too many arguments with idiots.  UKCut used to have some guff about "traditional morality" on their byline, I used to ask them if it was traditional morality to attack the poor and disabled.


----------



## past caring (Apr 1, 2011)

ymu said:


> And a @UKCut on Twitter. Happy trolling.
> 
> I'd suggest that the counter demo takes it seriously as a rally against debt - given the recent revelations about what Osborne's Plan A for growth is really. It's a golden opportunity to educate people about this stuff and take the piss out of some UKIPers at the same time.
> 
> ...



Fuck it - I'm sticking with the eggs.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I ended up deleting my Twitter account as I was getting drawn into too many arguments with idiots.  UKCut used to have some guff about "traditional morality" on their byline, I used to ask them if it was traditional morality to attack the poor and disabled.



I mostly use it to follow people who tweet out quality links. I've had one idiot try to pick a fight - but it was about Palestine and he was completely and utterly lost when I forced him off script. I trolled UKCut deliberately - he gave up fairly sharpish too. There's no point appealing to their morality though - you have to ask them how the economy will do when the top 1% finally have all the money and noone else can buy anything...

Facts. They don't like them.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

past caring said:


> Fuck it - I'm sticking with the eggs.


 
Eggs are good - but we have a pretty serious problem when left activists don't know the no cuts argument well enough to articulate it.

The Warner Act - part of the 1930s US New Deal introducing collective bargaining and union rights - came about because it was recognised that a workforce that could not afford to buy the goods that they made could not sustain an economy, and that this was part of the reason for the crash. Same thing with the welfare state - it prevents wages dropping below a certain level (which has been eroded), and it ensures that all workers contribute to the economy even when they are out of work.

Land tax - proposed by Adam Smith(yes, Adam Smith) as the only sustainable means of taxation.

People need to know this shit or we will just kick this lot out to get Tory-lite instead. Miliband is useless, Balls doesn't have the guts. We have to get this message out, and properly. No cuts are necessary because any cuts right now will be actively harmful to the economy and it could not possibly be any clearer from the history of the last century of economic intervention.

But yeah. Eggs too.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> utter cunts, the lot of 'em
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rally-Against-Debt/215405205140114?ref=ts





> Lads, I can tell you the City is one hundred percent behind you. But you've got to be consistent. That's why we want the coalition to ban private interest-bearing debt as well. Then we can get real jobs and give up this banking scam. I've always wanted to work in food service.



Haha!


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

ymu said:


> I mostly use it to follow people who tweet out quality links. I've had one idiot try to pick a fight - but it was about Palestine and he was completely and utterly lost when I forced him off script. I trolled UKCut deliberately - he gave up fairly sharpish too. There's no point appealing to their morality though - you have to ask them how the economy will do when the top 1% finally have all the money and noone else can buy anything...
> 
> Facts. They don't like them.



Yeah, I found that, most of 'em shut up when given facts and asked difficult questions.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Apr 1, 2011)

Same day as the FA Cup final the massive bellends


----------



## past caring (Apr 1, 2011)

ymu said:


> Eggs are good - but we have a pretty serious problem when left activists don't know the no cuts argument well enough to articulate it.
> 
> The Warner Act - part of the 1930s US New Deal introducing collective bargaining and union rights - came about because it was recognised that a workforce that could not afford to buy the goods that they made could not sustain an economy, and that this was part of the reason for the crash. Same thing with the welfare state - it prevents wages dropping below a certain level (which has been eroded), and it ensures that all workers contribute to the economy even when they are out of work.
> 
> ...


 
Not disagreeing with any of that when arguing/debating with those who might be persuaded to a more progressive way of thinking. But with a bunch FCS types with a lob on for Ayn Rand? I'll stick to the eggs as a less risky alternative to my preferred option of sticking the nut on the cunts.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I ended up deleting my Twitter account as I was getting drawn into too many arguments with idiots.  UKCut used to have some guff about "traditional morality" on their byline, I used to ask them if it was traditional morality to attack the poor and disabled.



 When didya do that? I went to bed last night and couldn't sleep cos I was too wound up, thought "fuck that" and got up and deleted mine.


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 1, 2011)

> Police could receive additional powers to tackle those encouraging crimes though social media outlets like Twitter and Facebook, Home Secretary Theresa May has said.
> 
> In a debate on disturbances which broke out in London during anti cuts protests, Delyn MP David Hanson asked the Home Secretary to have a conversation with the police to make sure they could prosecute people who used social networking websites to either encourage or assist crime.



http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?id=15918


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2011)

i thought that traditionally the cps did the prosecutions


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 1, 2011)

Bank with Barclays. 

Okay. Now you can come and arrest me.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Apr 1, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Same day as the FA Cup final the massive bellends


 
One would be a rugger afficionado, obviously, hooligan.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2011)

Its the usual tory sound off post any protest 'We must give serious consideration to new powers in the light of' etc etc constituents happy, ideas turn to mush when reality fades in


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 1, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> One would be a rugger afficionado, obviously, hooligan.



Ooooohhh, you can't say that to them, as it leads to some dippit cunt saying "B...b...but...I grew up working class and went to a comprehensive and I'm fully in favour of cuts so your whole argument is wrong".


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

past caring said:


> Not disagreeing with any of that when arguing/debating with those who might be persuaded to a more progressive way of thinking. But with a bunch FCS types with a lob on for Ayn Rand? I'll stick to the eggs as a less risky alternative to my preferred option of sticking the nut on the cunts.


Yes. But the context was a counter-demo to these fools. I don't think a lot of people throwing eggs and shouting "cunt" a lot is going to be very helpful in persuading passers-by that our argument is better than theirs.

Just make up a leaflet with the OBR forecasts before Osborne's first budget, before his second one, and the late (secret) amendment to the latter. Show that when he started the job, household debt was expected to decrease as a % of household income, and now it's expected to increase by 20%.

To put some numbers on that - the OBR reckon he'll save £43bn for the nations bank accounts, whilst adding £484bn to our personal debt.

And it can't work because no bank will lend us the money even if we were in a position to borrow it.

The Chancellor has no clothes. We need to be pointing and laughing at him, very, very publicly.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

via @PrivateEyeNews


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> When didya do that? I went to bed last night and couldn't sleep cos I was too wound up, thought "fuck that" and got up and deleted mine.


 
A couple of weeks ago.  I'd been off work with stress and was just stressing myself more with Twitter.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 1, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> A couple of weeks ago.  I'd been off work with stress and was just stressing myself more with Twitter.



I know. I was buzzing when I went to bed but in that "just seen a fight" way. Best I don't go on it, even though it was fun making up slogans for that silly rally. But you can't argue with those people, certainly online in under 140 characters.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 1, 2011)

Y'know, a really funny intervention would be to "out-tory" these tories. On the one hand a group of people could turn up in classic "toff wear" - top hats, monocles etc chanting things like "rah rah rah we're going to smash the oiks" etc. Another thing could be to go a "tory boy/girl" nerds (complete with acne and lisps) clutching copies of _Atlas Shrugged _and generally acting like dicks. Bring a megaphone and come up with some really embarrising chants like oh I dunno, but "kill the poor" being the gist of them anyway.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 1, 2011)

"what do we want?"

"fwee enterpwise!"

"when do we want it?"

"now!"


----------



## Dan U (Apr 1, 2011)

I've just twigged I am on a mates stag do the weekend of the 16th. Arse.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 1, 2011)

Cheesy knob, Ed West blogs


> Debt is the handmaiden of slavery. As John Adams said, there are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation; one by the sword, the other by debt, and our nation will be enslaved to debt unless we address the deficit. All we ask is that our government takes hold of the state’s finances in the same way we would of our households’.
> 
> We do not compare ourselves to Emmeline Pankhurst, Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King, not because our cause isn’t just, but because we do not claim the monopoly of justice. We do not claim our opponents are evil, just misguided, but we will not remain silent while their shouts drown out dissenting voices.
> 
> ...



Further down, he has a pop at Johann Hari's recent article


> It’s strange to call it a “lie”. Economics is not a hard science as such; there are certain facts about economics, but much is to do with interpretation, which is why you can take 300 of the most intelligent economists in the world and they will come to a series of vastly different conclusions about something. It’s why people with IQs in the 140s confidently but incorrectly predicted that the Euro would succeed, while Timmy McThicko who reads only the Daily Sport could correctly predict it would fail.


All West can offer by way of a counter-argument (sic) is a load of bluster.


> So to call George Osborne’s economic views “a lie” is untrue; neither side of this debate is lying as such, they are just interpreting the facts differently. Who is right? We don’t know in the same we know that 2+2 =4. But on the other hand there are certain fundamental facts in economics, such as the difference between “debt” and “deficit” which, as Peter Hoskin explains in the Spectator, Hari seems to mix up:



Yeah, George Osborne is a heavyweight intellectual, Westie. 

I think the editors at the Torygraph are getting each one of their bloggers to churn out these daily 'invitations' to the rally.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2011)

> We do not compare ourselves to Emmeline Pankhurst, Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King,



and yet are all to happy to raise the names, like cheap fucking cunts, betraying a desperation of cause that we do not feel. Weights behind us- these torgraph pricks are onto a loser if they think they will inflame anything other than the passions of Armchair Generals and Miscellaneous prats


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 1, 2011)

> SIR – The BBC was accused of bias (report, March 28) in its coverage of Saturday’s
> 
> riot. The bias continued into Sunday morning when Radio 4’s eight o’clock
> 
> ...



Daily Telegraph


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 1, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> Same day as the FA Cup final the massive bellends


 
A _faux pas_ which succinctly demonstrates their class origins, and hence their unfitness for life outside of a re-education camp, no?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 1, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> One would be a rugger afficionado, obviously, hooligan.


 
Most of them probably have warm memories of being passed around the communal after-match baths and roughly used.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 1, 2011)

ymu said:


> Yes. But the context was a counter-demo to these fools. I don't think a lot of people throwing eggs and shouting "cunt" a lot is going to be very helpful in persuading passers-by that our argument is better than theirs.



How about carrying a two-sided placard with "Q: Who Is John Galt?" on one side, and "A: A limp-dicked sadist" on the other?  



> Just make up a leaflet with the OBR forecasts before Osborne's first budget, before his second one, and the late (secret) amendment to the latter. Show that when he started the job, household debt was expected to decrease as a % of household income, and now it's expected to increase by 20%.
> 
> To put some numbers on that - the OBR reckon he'll save £43bn for the nations bank accounts, whilst adding £484bn to our personal debt.
> 
> ...


 
True. I'd still prefer to punch that supercilious sneer off his face, though.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Great blog article from Dan Hind. 



> The Alternative: an alternative approach
> 
> 
> On Monday I posted about on the TUC’s ‘March for the Alternative’. In it I made the case that organized labour now faces a choice. It can either accept gradual extinction in a political settlement that privileges finance over both industrial production and the commonwealth, or it can provide a venue for a discussion about the country’s options that leads in turn to an altogether new political settlement.
> ...


----------



## ddraig (Apr 1, 2011)

link borked


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Cheers.

http://thereturnofthepublic.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/the-alternative-an-alternative-approach/


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> True. I'd still prefer to punch that supercilious sneer off his face, though.


I agree!

But something that shocked and dismayed me on the demo was the number of people who just wanted fewer, kinder cuts because they don't know that there is an alternative. And this was on the March for the Alternative, backed up by one of the most accessible sites explaining why cuts are stupid right now.

So, I think we have some work to do. The fury of workers screwed over more than their bosses will be as nothing when they - and the bosses of any small-to-medium sized enterprise, and not-so comfortable middle England - find out that it's all a massive con. A 100% bogus, intellectually bankrupt, unutterably stupid, policy - unless you're rich enough to make use of tax havens.

When the IMF convenes 30 top economists - including all the recent Nobels - for a conference and these people who normally disagree about everything come to a unanimous consensus that the US has to spend more _and_ lower taxes (on spenders, not savers) ... you know there is something very fucking wrong when your government - and the last one - are still insisting on cuts, and no paper reports on the consensus, and Washington caves into the Hooverians AGAIN.

It's just too important to fuck around. If it takes too long to kick them out, some of these changes will be irreversible, and our economy will look like Ireland now or Japan ten years ago (and still, now). Fucked.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

And just to add to that ... we have to stop selling 'leftist' policies as some kind of moral thing. It's pure self-interest for literally everybody outside of the top 0.1%. The middle-class will have to emigrate to ASEAN to find work, and the working-class will have to work in sweat-shops here (once the pound plummets enough to stimulate the manufacturing industry we don't have any more, with the profits being expatriated instead of spent here), or they will have to emigrate for better pay and conditions elsewhere.

It doesn't take a whole lot to tip the balance. 95% of the cuts haven't bitten yet, and we've already got massive impacts showing up in GDP, the housing market, lending and spending.

We're the guinea-pig (with the US possibly volunteering to be one too). And when we fail, we will be everybody else's bitch - with no easy escape routes.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 1, 2011)

Had a little playful troll of the Telegraph blog.


----------



## Corax (Apr 1, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Had a little playful troll of the Telegraph blog.


 


> I for one am delighted that UKIP has organised this wonderful opportunity to protest against the debt that our politicians have got us into, and overjoyed that such an important figure as Ed West has taken the time to champion this fine cause with a quite marvelous article. I'm sure I speak for everyone who will be attending when I say that no amount of facts, statistics, and historical evidence thrown at us from the left will sway us from our right to protest without being animals. The left are either all middle-class wannabe-revolutionaries who are just jealous of successful businessmen or feckless, slack-jawed, tattooed breeders of mewling tax vampires whose only concern is losing the benefits with which they are showered. I am also sure I speak for everyone at the Rally Against Debt when I say that if a few of the poor starve to death through a withdrawal of the state benefit teat, so be it. I bet they'd be happy to dig roads for tuppence then, wouldn't they? Worried about losing their precious public services? They can afford cider, cigarettes and any amount of tacky jewelery, can't they? What makes them exempt from paying their fair share back of this debt that's mainly their fault, anyway? It's not like they pay much tax. The feckless gyppos.
> 
> Anyway! The Rally Against Debt! Let's demand we're heard! Politely, though, not like the half-million scum army from March 26th!



If that's you - _*applause*_


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 1, 2011)

Corax said:


> If that's you - _*applause*_


 


The name's an anagram of "Tax the rich harder", too.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 1, 2011)




----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 1, 2011)

The troll a tory award of the week goes to steel icarus


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 1, 2011)

Definitely!


----------



## BigTom (Apr 1, 2011)

yep great work SI


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 1, 2011)

copliker said:


> There is that, and we all know about it, but credit where credit is due. It's nearly up there with The Sun's 'Shoots You Sir' headline about Gianni Versace's murder.


 


tar1984 said:


> That was the star or the daily sport or some such comic that did the shoots you sir headline.


 
It was the _Sport_:



> [Then-editor Tony] Livesey told _Press Gazette_ his lasting legacy would be the _Cutting Edge_ Channel 4 documentary about the _Sport_ that showed him coming up with the headline "Shoots You, Sir" about the murder of Gianni Versace. The headline referred to popular comedy sketch show _The Fast Show_ that included a sketch where two tailors said the catchphrase "Suits you, Sir".


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 1, 2011)

> The ordinary ‘anarchists’ and why they went to London



http://www.bristol247.com/2011/03/3...inary-anarchists-and-why-they-went-to-london/

Nuff said.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> http://www.bristol247.com/2011/03/3...inary-anarchists-and-why-they-went-to-london/
> 
> Nuff said.


 
Indeed!

Some very, very good black bloc articles coming out of this.


----------



## rollinder (Apr 1, 2011)

not sure if this or the arrestees thread is the right one to post this but somebody from Uk uncut was on Radio 2 (Radio bloody 2  but 
 about midday /1pm - was in a taxi so only heard part of it.

Presenter seemed neutral rather than attacking/anti, 
asked what they were actually doing inside, uk uncut person said it was drinking tea, singing, chanting and making origami flowers. (bloody hippies  ) 
Police were inside the building  

I mentioned the the police claiming they wouldn't arrest them only to do so, 
taxi driver reckoned that was "typical police"

journey ended just as they were about to play audio of the police talking to the group inside
Did they really expose the police lying about people not going to be arrested on BBC radio?


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

Here's the Whois info for rally against debt website

Domain ID: D161898787-LROR
Domain Name:RALLYAGAINSTDEBT.ORG
Created On:29-Mar-2011 15:44:26 UTC
Last Updated On:30-Mar-2011 13:23:11 UTC
Expiration Date:29-Mar-2012 15:44:26 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar: Directi Internet Solutions Pvt. Ltd. d/b/a PublicDomainRegistry.com (R27-LROR)
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:ADDPERIOD
Registrant ID: DI_4888385
Registrant Name:Jake Patch
Registrant Organization:SummitWeb
Registrant Street1:Myrtle Cottage
Registrant Street2:Touches Lane
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Chard
Registrant State/Province:Somerset
Registrant Postal Code:TA20 1RY
Registrant Country:GB
Registrant Phone:+44.0146067777
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:jake.patch@gmail.com
Admin ID: DI_4888385
Admin Name:Jake Patch
Admin Organization:SummitWeb
Admin Street1:Myrtle Cottage
Admin Street2:Touches Lane
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Chard
Admin State/Province:Somerset
Admin Postal Code:TA20 1RY
Admin Country:GB
Admin Phone:+44.0146067777
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:jake.patch@gmail.com
Tech ID: DI_4888385
Tech Name:Jake Patch
Tech Organization:SummitWeb
Tech Street1:Myrtle Cottage
Tech Street2:Touches Lane
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Chard
Tech State/Province:Somerset
Tech Postal Code:TA20 1RY
Tech Country:GB
Tech Phone:+44.0146067777
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:jake.patch@gmail.com
Name Server:NS1.DEFAULTNAMESERVERS.COM
Name Server:NS2.DEFAULTNAMESERVERS.COM
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
Name Server: 
DNSSEC:Unsigned


it has a name, address and phone number...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2011)

http://www.facebook.com/jack.patch
http://twitter.com/#!/JacobPatch
He's a UKIP carnivaler


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 1, 2011)

that's a supremely punchable face


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

The really, really obvious counter-rally slogan should be:

END THE DEBT!

TAX THE RICH!

INVEST IN JOBS!

I'll happily produce a leaflet, but have shit printing facilities.

But you'd have to guarantee enough bodies to outnumber them - so it's a UK Uncut collaboration, I reckon.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Fuck it. Just Facebook it and Tweet out invites with the suggested slogan and "please bring a placard!" on it. #tag it to #m26 and #ukuncut and the job is done.

Objections? 

If not, any volunteers to do the Facebook bit of it so I don't have to join the devil's site?


----------



## nick h. (Apr 1, 2011)

rollinder said:


> Did they really expose the police lying about people not going to be arrested on BBC radio?



They had film of a Chief Inspector telling that lie on Newsnight days ago.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 1, 2011)

Just checking, but everybody does realise that the whole Rally For Cuts thing is basically half a dozen dicks who know each other chatting on facebook and almost certainly won't happen anyway?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 1, 2011)

Try and get some dirt on him, lefties. Just try. I dare you.


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

Lying police video


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 1, 2011)

New thread for this spot of direct <rotten egg> action against the fucktards?


----------



## ymu (Apr 1, 2011)

*jazz hands*


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 2, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Just checking, but everybody does realise that the whole Rally For Cuts thing is basically half a dozen dicks who know each other chatting on facebook and almost certainly won't happen anyway?


 
ha ha-  this is all just a big joke and he's got all you lefties frothing, running around, deleting twitter accounts and near to heart attack it would seem.  I would suggest you all calm down.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2011)

pull the other one, its got veins on it


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> ha ha-  this is all just a big joke and he's got all you lefties frothing, running around, deleting twitter accounts and near to heart attack it would seem.  I would suggest you all calm down.


 
Wrong end of stick mate.


----------



## newbie (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> ha ha-  this is all just a big joke and he's got all you lefties frothing, running around, deleting twitter accounts and near to heart attack it would seem.  I would suggest you all calm down.


 
that's more or less my take too, it's just another internet troll with zero realworld meaning.  Come May 15th this post can be quoted for a point and laugh session if I'm wrong.

As for the police lying, I think the cabbie got it right, that's what they do.  tbh it looks like good tactics- tell 150ish people in a shop they're about to be arrested then what's most likely to happen is a major kerfuffle with riot cops everywhere and cocoa all over the floor. Tell 'em they're about to be led to a place of safety and they all shuffle out into a queue for processing.  I'm sure those involved were offended but it worked and she'll probably get promotion.

Arresting 150 people and charging them with singing in a shop (with a side charge of making paper aeroplanes) and then imposing repressive bail conditions- that's an issue worth making a fuss about.  the rest is dross.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> http://www.bristol247.com/2011/03/3...inary-anarchists-and-why-they-went-to-london/
> 
> Nuff said.


 
Just read that - i was in one of those five (heroic) cars.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2011)

> Dress code for our travellers was casual – trainers, jeans, hoodies, anoraks;



rocking the anorak, butchers?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> rocking the anorak, butchers?


 
I had trainers, jeans and a Penguin harrington. Light and casual.


----------



## rekil (Apr 2, 2011)

Nazi anorak surely.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 2, 2011)

A patrick harrington?

(You set 'em up...)


----------



## rekil (Apr 2, 2011)




----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> A patrick harrington?
> 
> (You set 'em up...)


 
 Bravo


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 2, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Just read that - i was in one of those five (heroic) cars.


 
Lol, thought you might be


----------



## audiotech (Apr 2, 2011)

'around ten ba's'


----------



## Geri (Apr 2, 2011)

audiotech said:


> 'around ten ba's'


 
Just as well I didn't go or I would have lowered the intellectual average quite considerably with my 2 O levels.


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 2, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Just read that - i was in one of those five (heroic) cars.


 
legendary - that's hilarious

you really are a sad man


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> legendary - that's hilarious
> 
> you really are a sad man


 
Back this statement up, please, with a reason.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

Not as sad as the person who took the time to reply, despite apparently not giving a shit.


----------



## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

It was kinda obvious, butch!

You must have raised the average level of education by a decent amount.


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 2, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Back this statement up, please, with a reason.


 
Im just thinking sad 50 year old man in a car attending a demo - bit like Harry Enfield.  Im sure you can see the funny side.  Or do you want to get back on twitter and risk that heart attack?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Im just thinking sad 50 year old man in a car attending a demo - bit like Harry Enfield.  Im sure you can see the funny side.  Or do you want to get back on twitter and risk that heart attack?


 
Sad git with delusions of grandeur bitching about other people attending demos.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

My dad and his mate came on the demo last weekend btw. I imagine I'll still be attending them when I'm 50.


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 2, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Sad git with delusions of grandeur bitching about other people attending demos.


 
I have no delusions of grandeur at all

I just find it funny


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2011)

@frog

Not if I am in charge you won't


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Im just thinking sad 50 year old man in a car attending a demo - bit like Harry Enfield.  Im sure you can see the funny side.  Or do you want to get back on twitter and risk that heart attack?



I think it's probably time for you to get back to the important stuff you're doing pissing about in the football forum.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> @frog
> 
> Not if I am in charge you won't



I thought I'd still get some dodgy area of Siberia


----------



## discokermit (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Im just thinking sad 50 year old man in a car attending a demo


is there an age limit for being against government cuts?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

25


----------



## Fedayn (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Im just thinking sad 50 year old man in a car attending a demo - bit like Harry Enfield.  Im sure you can see the funny side.  Or do you want to get back on twitter and risk that heart attack?


 
You're sentence fails on the third word. The idea of you thinking at all is most unlikely.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

Come the glorious day there won't be any need for any more demos, ever ... although we might want to re-enact some of the more dramatic ones, for historical purposes


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 2, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> You're sentence fails on the third word. The idea of you thinking at all is most unlikely.


 
ha ha

(thinks) greying creaking man sitting in department store - it really is quite funny


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 2, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Come the glorious day there won't be any need for any more demos, ever ... although we might want to re-enact some of the more dramatic ones, for historical purposes


 
what you guys dont realise is that the world doesn't stop for losers quite like you lot


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2011)

The deft rhetorical hand there gunner. Bravo


----------



## Steel Icarus (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> what you guys dont realise is that the world doesn't stop for losers quite like you lot



But sometimes it listens. And changes.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> ha ha
> 
> (thinks) greying creaking man sitting in department store - it really is quite funny




I thought you were a succesful businessman gunneradt. How come you're sat here on a saturday night winding up lefties on the internet?


----------



## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> But sometimes it listens. And changes.


 
Indeed it does. Protest works, just look at the proof.

Heads-up for some action - Big Society Benefits & Careers Advisory Service (BSBACAS) and National Unemployed Workers Union recruitment drive, lifting off on a thread near you. Please join up, or donate to the bank account details which will be appearing shortly.

Twitter and Facebook launch in effect. Please spread the word.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2011)

Also do you think we give a fuck as to whether you think we're sad or not.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 2, 2011)

Cos he's a cock


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> what you guys dont realise is that the world doesn't stop for losers quite like you lot


 
finish your last can of fosters then fuck off.


----------



## ymu (Apr 2, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> finish your last can of fosters then fuck off.


 
Come on Dotty. Get yer arse over to the other thread. There's work to be done!


----------



## gunneradt (Apr 2, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> finish your last can of fosters then fuck off.


 
ha ha

cooking and enjoying a glass of red


----------



## Geri (Apr 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Im just thinking sad 50 year old man in a car attending a demo - bit like Harry Enfield.  Im sure you can see the funny side.  Or do you want to get back on twitter and risk that heart attack?


 
Butchers isn't 50, he isn't even 40 yet!


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 3, 2011)

> Find the Ritzkrieg 18: The suspects from the spending cuts riot who police want to identify



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-cuts-riot-suspects-police-want-identify.html


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 3, 2011)

**


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 3, 2011)

audiotech said:


> 'around ten ba's'


 
There's only one ba!


----------



## Brainaddict (Apr 3, 2011)

Today I am liking this picture I took on London Bridge, stickered along with a bunch of much more obvious 26 March stickers:


----------



## BigTom (Apr 3, 2011)

http://38degrees.uservoice.com/foru...g-for-the-dropping-of-charges-of-ag?ref=title

suggestion to 38 degrees to campaign/petition to have charges dropped for ukuncut fortnum and mason arrestees.. yeah, I know, petitions, but if it gets picked up it'll give lots of opportunity for people to show support and give some numbers behind any pressure to be brought on the cps via the media to drop the charges.

e2a: you vote for this to get pciked up by them


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 3, 2011)

Not sure if it's been posted, but a piece in the FT about the march and "violent protest":



> There was something truly depressing about last weekend’s TUC-sponsored mass march against public spending cuts. Some 250,000 people ambled through London, picnicked in Hyde Park, listened to Ed Miliband and totally ruined the day for the serious violent minority who were trying to smash things up...
> 
> ...“So when the Tories were slashing budgets and ratcheting up your college fees, your mother and I marched through London.”
> 
> ...



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e2bd35d8-5b37-11e0-b2a1-00144feab49a.html#axzz1ISYYReb0


----------



## Will2403 (Apr 3, 2011)

Interesting article FM.

Maybe I'm reading it completely wrongly, but it seems to attempt to uphold the status quo by encouraging violent rebellion. 

imo, violence of the type seen on March 26th was pretty feeble and won't make any noticeable impact on the accounts of the businesses hit.

at best the perpetrators get away with it, at worst they get spotted and charged, limiting their ability to continue protesting in the future, and gives the government an excuse to bring in harsher penalties and new anti-protest laws.

i doubt it will get many people scribbling letters to their mp, and it's the parliamentary system that needs to be reformed or replaced anyway.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Apr 5, 2011)

(Not too sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes) - Disco Dave tells the rich and fabulous in Pakistan to pay more tax: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/05/david-cameron-pakistan-raise-taxes-rich Hmm, not the same DC who's going to cut the top rate of tax from 50% to 40%, and who won't sort out tax loopholes allowing various big-money institutions to pay next to nada in tax themselves?


----------



## fractionMan (Apr 5, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Interesting article FM.
> 
> Maybe I'm reading it completely wrongly, but it seems to attempt to uphold the status quo by encouraging violent rebellion.
> 
> ...


 
I think you missed the entire point of the article.  It's about the futility of ineffectual gestures that don't go anywhere.  Although why he thinks writing strongly worded letters to an MP would make any difference is beyond me.


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 5, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> I think you missed the entire point of the article.  It's about the futility of ineffectual gestures that don't go anywhere.  Although why he thinks writing strongly worded letters to an MP would make any difference is beyond me.


Depends how many "strongly worded" letters they receive, and how big their majority was...


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 6, 2011)

> Refuse the Met's demand for footage - An open letter to the BBC



http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...se-mets-demand-for-footage-open-letter-to-bbc


----------



## winjer (Apr 8, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> at best the perpetrators get away with it, at worst they get spotted and charged, limiting their ability to continue protesting in the future, and gives the government an excuse to bring in harsher penalties and new anti-protest laws.


If you're too timid to get involved, why do you care what the penalty is?


----------



## winjer (Apr 8, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> 5:48 in this video, a hooded man decides he had enough and shows something to police who let him through to escape the confrontation...




As with the other video you posted later in the thread, that's a Top Shop security guard, anyone observant who'd attended previous UK Uncut demos at Top Shop would recognise him and his Top Shop colleagues. Here are some photos of him:

http://i.imgur.com/gqwjY.png http://twitpic.com/4ecui0 http://twitpic.com/4ecuus

People chanting "undercover cops" at them is just daft tinfoilery.


----------



## winjer (Apr 8, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> A group of masked men dressed in black going around smashing up shops?


Why do your sort never notice all the masked women, is it misogyny or just poor eyesight?


----------



## winjer (Apr 8, 2011)

nick h. said:


> UKUncut will win a big legal victory, gaining masses of media examination of their argument, decent PR showing that they are not anarchic but cuddly and constructive


I think you'll find UKUncut make a big deal of being anarchic, while they may not all identify with organised anarchism.


----------



## winjer (Apr 8, 2011)

killer b said:


> i thought the aggravated bit was dropped?


It can't be, the offence charged is aggravated trespass, not trespass _with_ aggravation.


----------



## killer b (Apr 8, 2011)

it's good of you to go through the thread correcting us all. thankyou.


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 8, 2011)

Uk Uncut protesters were arrested to gather intelligence according to the police... ?

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/0...ncut-arrests-made-for-intelligence-gathering/


----------



## shaman75 (Apr 8, 2011)

winjer said:


> As with the other video you posted later in the thread, that's a Top Shop security guard, anyone observant who'd attended previous UK Uncut demos at Top Shop would recognise him and his Top Shop colleagues. Here are some photos of him:
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/gqwjY.png http://twitpic.com/4ecui0 http://twitpic.com/4ecuus
> 
> People chanting "undercover cops" at them is just daft tinfoilery.



couldn't comment on that, but i notice one of the 'undercover cops' seen hanging around topshop during the january student protests was also hanging around in whitehall when the conservatives were negotiating the coalition agreement.


----------



## winjer (Apr 8, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I took part in the ukuncut actions on oxford street, where we ...


You might want to consider carefully what you post about your actions in light of your potential trial.



> I was released on bail on sunday evening, I have been charged with obstruction/disruption under the CJA 1994 section 68(1) and (3), with a court date of 12th may.


To be perfectly clear you been charged with: Doing something with the intention of causing obstruction/disruption. There doesn't have to be disruption, although that can make it easier to prove intent. I say this as someone who previously had a conviction for aggravated trespass, since overturned on appeal.



> In this video you can see the police officer in charge in the shop say that we would be allowed to leave.  I'm not sure if this gives us grounds to sue for false imprisonment or wrongful arrest or anything.


I seriously doubt it, all she says is that at that point she doesn't plan to arrest, not that she doesn't think any laws have been broken.



> I also don't know if I can sue for wrongful arrest as my charge is different to the ones I was arrested for (aggravated trespass and criminal damage).. will take legal advice on that one.


No, not at all.


----------



## winjer (Apr 8, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> couldn't comment on that, but i notice one of the 'undercover cops' seen hanging around topshop during the january student protests was also hanging around in whitehall when the conservatives were negotiating the coalition agreement.


There were no *undercover* cops seen hanging around Top Shop, that have been identified. One cop in plain-clothes (Steve Discombe) who was chased out of Top Shop at one protest (as written about in the Guardian) is very likely to have also been on Whitehall, as he's a full-time 'field intelligence officer', see for example his evidence to the Ian Tomlinson inquest: http://www.tomlinsoninquest.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/3198A8AE-B340-400F-ADA7-38201429CA57/0/010411pm.pdf

You do know the difference between plain-clothes and undercover, I hope?


----------



## cantsin (Apr 8, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> ha ha
> 
> cooking and enjoying a glass of red


 
wow, arent you quite the bon viveur you fantasist dullard


----------



## Urbanblues (Apr 9, 2011)

cantsin said:


> wow, arent you quite the bon viveur you fantasist dullard


 
Urgheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....


----------



## BigTom (Apr 11, 2011)

A Defendants campaign has been launched for the 145 Arrestees from the UK Uncut Fortnum and Mason action.. 

The website is www.fortnum145.org
twitter is @FM145 and #Fortnum145
facebook

At the moment there is not alot to do except follow it and send messages of solidarity, but I hope that there will be solidarity demo's/actions arranged in support of the arrestees.
It's 145 not 138 because we don't know if any of the other 7 are going to be charged yet..


----------



## BigTom (Apr 18, 2011)

Liberty have released their report about the 26th - PDF



> It was not within our remit to observe the policing of events after the TUC march or completely extraneous to it.





> There can be no doubt that the official trade union-led demonstration was overwhelmingly civil, peaceful and good-natured and that the police response was in general proportionate





> As is now well known, there was a significant police response at Fortnum & Mason. Our observation of these events was limited to their impact on the TUC march. We did not observe events inside the building or outside after the official march had ended.





> Another observer recorded at 4.25pm that the police response was proportionate, noting that: “police officers pushing against protestors who are pushing back outside Fortnum & Mason… force used by police not unreasonable”. At 4.40pm another noted: “Stand off. Two lines riot police - one line charging down Duke Street St James'. Police charging peaceful protestors to clear the street. Atmosphere aggressive and hostile on both sides… Very unpleasant.”



 - watch from around 3 minutes for stuff outside of f&m and what I think is oxford street.. some is fine, some pushing seems over the top and there are sheild strikes shown, plus a guy with a head injury (but we don't know the reason for that)



> The possibility of mass containment of peaceful protesters has undoubtedly had a chilling effect on many people’s rights to freedom of expression and assembly.





> We are aware from media reports that a significant number of arrests were made later in the evening as a result of the events at Fortnum & Mason, and that the police were engaged in a number of separate public order incidents in central London long after the TUC march had ended. As these occurred after our observation had concluded we are not in a position to provide any comment.





> We are aware that, in the days following the march, there have been some calls for tougher police action, or even new police powers, to deal with violent groups who infiltrate such demonstrations. Nothing that we observed suggested that either response would help to protect the rights of those who are affected by such incidents



So yeah, set yourself up so that you are only looking at the place where there is very unlikely to be any kind of issue with the policing, in order that you can say there was no problem with the policing.

Basically a mixed bag - I know I had a conversation somewhere with people about what Liberty would be like observing this and this report doesn't help much.  It's probably totally fair, and as they didn't have observers inside f&m, on oxford street, later on at piccadilly or trafalgar square, then it's not surprising they didn't see anything that they considered disproportionate, and of course they cannot comment on such things in their observation report.
They have said that the willingness to kettle was not right and that kettling has issues, and also rejecting calls for new police powers.

But I think how they react after this will be important to my view of their role on the day.  As I said above they set themselves up to watch one part of the day, the part where the police would be unlikely to have anything much to deal with, and as such the police can now use this report to claim their policing on the day was fine, neglecting to be explicit about the fact that the report only covers a limited area of the days events.
Whether Liberty will point this out (or be able to) I'm not sure, and I should re-read the newspaper articles I skimmed earlier to see how this is actually playing out in the press.


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 18, 2011)

BigTom said:


> So yeah, set yourself up so that you are only looking at the place where there is very unlikely to be any kind of issue with the policing, in order that you can say there was no problem with the policing.


Or vice versa with the protesters...


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> Or vice versa with the protesters...


 
what interest would liberty have in the behaviour of the protestors? their focus is (i believe) on the activities of the state, not the civilian.


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 18, 2011)

killer b said:


> what interest would liberty have in the behaviour of the protestors? their focus is (i believe) on the activities of the state, not the civilian.


So they can use the word "proportionate"? (Or, of course, "disproportionate")


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2011)

and even if they did focus on protestors behavior a couple of hundred nickings out of a half million crowd is good going- theres worse on saturday nights.


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2011)

they've chosen to avoid the very flashpoints where they would be forced by events to say one thing or the other - which makes it a waste of an exercise as far as everyone is concerned.

i wonder why they bothered.


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 18, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> and even if they did focus on protestors behavior a couple of hundred nickings out of a half million crowd is good going- theres worse on saturday nights.


There weren't half a million new kids on the black block tho were there? And I doubt very much whether everybody who committed a crime got arrested (probably a small percentage)


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 18, 2011)

killer b said:


> they've chosen to avoid the very flashpoints where they would be forced by events to say one thing or the other - which makes it a waste of an exercise as far as everyone is concerned.


True, altho I'm confused by Liberty's statements that the police were too "focussed on kettling" - are they referring to the TUC march or the activities of the poshos of the black block? They were in the police control room, but presumably (?) that control room was directing police for both TUC and black block? So who we they too focussed on kettling? If the black block then they _were_ observing the operation in your flashpoints (albeit from a distance and not on the streets)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 18, 2011)

There were some harsh words for Liberty both from the panels and from the floor at the 'Standing Up To Surveillance' conference hosted by the Network for Police Monitoring at the weekend. It seems that Green & Black Cross legal observers had been trying to get in touch with Liberty for a time before the M26 demo but been stonewalled - and then came the announcement of the deal with the Met.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> There weren't half a million new kids on the black block tho were there? And I doubt very much whether everybody who committed a crime got arrested (probably a small percentage)


 


> It was not within our remit to observe the policing of events after the TUC march or completely extraneous to it.



So vice versa focus would not be on black bloc either



> And I doubt very much whether everybody who committed a crime got arrested (probably a small percentage)




Psi judge, precog division.


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 18, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> So vice versa focus would not be on black bloc either


Isn't that what I said!?



> Psi judge, precog division.


No just watching youtube videos etc...


----------



## IC3D (Apr 18, 2011)

I saw Liberty furiously noting in note books the damage caused to banks along Piccadilly don't know why though sharing information with the OB was my first thought.


----------



## skitr (Apr 18, 2011)

Their report is only to do with the main March. Interesting that they were even considering kettling on the march...


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 18, 2011)

skitr said:


> Their report is only to do with the main March. Interesting that they were even considering kettling on the march...


Were they?

I've not read the full report (and let's face it, I never will) so feel free to correct, but as I mentioned above, Liberty were based in the 'control room', which presumably was also directing operations against the black block as well as the TUC operation. The BBC article says kettling was under "near constant consideration" when potential trouble spots emerged. Were these "trouble spots" at the TUC march? Anybody see them? If not, that would suggest kettling was considered for the black block, not necessarily the TUC march...


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 18, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> True, altho I'm confused by Liberty's statements that the police were too "focussed on kettling" - are they referring to the TUC march or the activities of the *poshos of the black block*? They were in the police control room, but presumably (?) that control room was directing police for both TUC and black block? So who we they too focussed on kettling? If the black block then they _were_ observing the operation in your flashpoints (albeit from a distance and not on the streets)



How could you possibly tell that?


----------



## BigTom (Apr 18, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> Were they?
> 
> I've not read the full report (and let's face it, I never will) so feel free to correct, but as I mentioned above, Liberty were based in the 'control room', which presumably was also directing operations against the black block as well as the TUC operation. The BBC article says kettling was under "near constant consideration" when potential trouble spots emerged. Were these "trouble spots" at the TUC march? Anybody see them? If not, that would suggest kettling was considered for the black block, not necessarily the TUC march...



They mention a couple of points, when the "Armed Wing of the TUC" apparently set fire to their trojan horse outside downing st (iirc, I've not re-read the report).
It's not at all clear though what they are talking about tbh.
They had observers physically out on the streets only along the TUC march route, but presumably would have seen/heard all of it from the control room, but they don't comment on it, or make it clear where the kettling they are talking about might have taken place, aside from one (or maybe two) incidents.

My impression is that they are talking about the main march and that whenever it looked like a group might not just be content with marching onwards towards hyde park, the police were ready to kettle them, but as I say it's not at all clear.


----------



## embree (Apr 18, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> How could you possibly tell that?


 
The handful of people I know who were involved are a very long way away from being 'poshos'


----------



## BigTom (Apr 18, 2011)

embree said:


> The handful of people I know who were involved are a very long way away from being 'poshos'


 
ditto


----------



## ymu (Apr 19, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> Were they?
> 
> I've not read the full report (and let's face it, I never will) so feel free to correct, but as I mentioned above, Liberty were based in the 'control room', which presumably was also directing operations against the black block as well as the TUC operation. The BBC article says kettling was under "near constant consideration" when potential trouble spots emerged. Were these "trouble spots" at the TUC march? Anybody see them? If not, that would suggest kettling was considered for the black block, not necessarily the TUC march...



They had observers along the route of the march, not just in the control room.

We were outside Fortnum & Mason when a group of UK Uncut trotted through and got in after a bit of a scuffle with four policemen on the door. Shortly after that, a small group of black bloc arrived along with a dozen or so riot police from behind us and a riot van driving through the crowd in front. I was in sole charge of a 12 year old at the time, so we scarpered. They blocked/kettled the entire march behind us for nearly an hour after that.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 19, 2011)

embree said:


> The handful of people I know who were involved are a very long way away from being 'poshos'


 
Same as that.


----------



## skitr (Apr 19, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> Were they?
> 
> I've not read the full report (and let's face it, I never will) so feel free to correct, but as I mentioned above, Liberty were based in the 'control room', which presumably was also directing operations against the black block as well as the TUC operation. The BBC article says kettling was under "near constant consideration" when potential trouble spots emerged. Were these "trouble spots" at the TUC march? Anybody see them? If not, that would suggest kettling was considered for the black block, not necessarily the TUC march...



In the actual report, which most of the news agencies, surprise surprise, have looked over, it states:



> It was not within our remit to observe the policing of events after the TUC march, or completely extraneous to it.


 http://www.liberty-human-rights.org...ving-at-the-tuc-march-for-the-alternative.pdf

Thank god for GBC.


----------



## embree (Apr 19, 2011)

So basically their remit was to observe the policing of a TUC organised A to B march which had zero chance of being subject to any kind of state repression at all?

So what was the point?


----------



## BigTom (Apr 19, 2011)

embree said:


> So basically their remit was to observe the policing of a TUC organised A to B march which had zero chance of being subject to any kind of state repression at all?
> 
> So what was the point?



imo to give the police something they could wave about saying that their policing was fine, no matter what they did away from the march.  I hope liberty prove me wrong by extending their remit to events beyond the march.


----------



## winjer (Apr 20, 2011)

BigTom said:


> It's probably totally fair, and as they didn't have observers inside f&m, on oxford street, later on at piccadilly or trafalgar square, then it's not surprising they didn't see anything that they considered disproportionate, and of course they cannot comment on such things in their observation report.


Experienced legal observers (e.g. LDMG) know they need to be flexible and can only observe police action by being where it is happening. Liberty claim to have been doing legal observing since 1934 (ignoring all the gaps) so their total failure to observe anything useful shows what a useless scab organisation they've become.



> Whether Liberty will point this out (or be able to) I'm not sure, and I should re-read the newspaper articles I skimmed earlier to see how this is actually playing out in the press.


Don't hold your breath.


----------



## winjer (Apr 20, 2011)

BigTom said:


> They mention a couple of points, when the "Armed Wing of the TUC" apparently set fire to their trojan horse outside downing st (iirc, I've not re-read the report).
> It's not at all clear though what they are talking about tbh.


Chris Knight and his Merry Men: http://www.battleofbritainmarch26.org/march26/Why_Armed_Wing.html
The horse was eventually burned at Oxford Circus: 

"Netpol’s response to Liberty’s report on the policing of TUC march" is worth reading:
http://networkforpolicemonitoring.org.uk/?p=254


----------



## BigTom (Apr 20, 2011)

Yeah, it's not clear whether they are talking about threats of a kettle happening outside downing street or elsewhere, ie: were the people in the control room also responding to threats/kettles away from the main march.  I think probably not, as this would be outside their remit, but it's not totally clear.

Thanks for the netpol link, hadn't see that.


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 20, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> How could you possibly tell that?


Because you rarely hear regional accents on the YouTube videos, those that aren't dressed in black clothes are dressed like students and it looks like the majority are carrying hundreds and hundreds of pounds worth of photographic equipment with them. Not your typical working classes at any rate.

I suppose they might not have graduated yet or haven't found a graduate type job after finishing uni which may mean their current situation wasn't "posh", but I tend to base a person's upbringing as whether they are posh or not (i.e. accent and have you had an expensive camera brought for you as a birthday present?)



I await the roasting!


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 20, 2011)




----------



## magneze (Apr 20, 2011)

Accent != poshness. There are no posh northerners or cockneys or Liverpudlians or ... oh hang on ...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2011)

CR is an example - he's so used to getting way with it wif cockneys that he's forgot.


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 20, 2011)

magneze said:


> Accent != poshness. There are no posh northerners or cockneys or Liverpudlians or ... oh hang on ...


Yea they live in Harrogate, but they don't sound like the rest of the northerners!


----------



## embree (Apr 20, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> Because you rarely hear regional accents on the YouTube videos, those that aren't dressed in black clothes are dressed like students and it looks like the majority are carrying hundreds and hundreds of pounds worth of photographic equipment with them. Not your typical working classes at any rate.


 
The ones not wearing black aren't black bloc then are they?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 21, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> those that aren't dressed in black clothes are dressed like students and it looks like the majority are carrying hundreds and hundreds of pounds worth of photographic equipment with them. Not your typical working classes at any rate.


 
Being fair, that is a load of rubbish with no basis in anything real.


----------



## revlon (Apr 21, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> Because you rarely hear regional accents on the YouTube videos, those that aren't dressed in black clothes are dressed like students and it looks like the majority are carrying hundreds and hundreds of pounds worth of photographic equipment with them. Not your typical working classes at any rate.
> 
> I suppose they might not have graduated yet or haven't found a graduate type job after finishing uni which may mean their current situation wasn't "posh", but I tend to base a person's upbringing as whether they are posh or not (i.e. accent and have you had an expensive camera brought for you as a birthday present?)
> 
> ...


 
what about muslamic rayguns guy? Northern, drunk and ignorant = working classes


----------



## ymu (Apr 21, 2011)

CyberRose said:


> Because you rarely hear regional accents on the YouTube videos, those that aren't dressed in black clothes are dressed like students and it looks like the majority are carrying hundreds and hundreds of pounds worth of photographic equipment with them. Not your typical working classes at any rate.
> 
> I suppose they might not have graduated yet or haven't found a graduate type job after finishing uni which may mean their current situation wasn't "posh", but I tend to base a person's upbringing as whether they are posh or not (i.e. accent and have you had an expensive camera brought for you as a birthday present?)
> 
> ...


 
Masked up protesters carrying hundreds of pounds worth of photographic equipment?

You sure you're not confusing "black bloc" with "journalists"?


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 22, 2011)

ymu said:


> You sure you're not confusing "black bloc" with "journalists"?


Nah everyone knows you're not a proper "working class" protester unless you're carrying hundreds of pounds worth of photographic equipment to scare the police with. Don't make the mistake, however, of _only_ having your kit lens. Your fellow protersters will sneer down their nose at you unless you've forked out a few hundred quid more for a proper lens

(Anyway, if they were journalists they'd be taking pictures of the protesters, not the police)


----------



## CyberRose (Apr 22, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Being fair, that is a load of rubbish with no basis in anything real.


Being fair, this is the internet and this is what the internet is for


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 5, 2011)

Thread bump - noticed this in the Indie this morning - establishment hack Julie Burchill accuses UK Uncut, Stokes Croft anti-Tescoites etc of being anti-Semitic (and smelly, too): http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/julie-burchill/julie-burchill-toytown-trots-who-attack-shops-are-no-better-than-bullingdon-club-bullies-2278998.html

Completely missing the point of the protests and movement, and a total smear job worthy of Searchlight's better-known hysterics.  And this from the woman who was more than happy to take Murdoch's money.  Fake Stanilists make the best neo-liberals, don't they?


----------



## fractionMan (May 5, 2011)

I fucking hate that woman


----------



## stethoscope (May 5, 2011)

Burchill can fuck the fuck off.


----------



## ymu (May 5, 2011)

Toby Young's vile twin.


----------



## MellySingsDoom (May 5, 2011)

Burchill's getting absolutely hammered in the comments section of that piece for, well, everything.  Still, she's say "I knew I was right", so that's OK then.


----------



## embree (May 5, 2011)

'Toytown Trots'?! I don't fucking think so


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 5, 2011)

These twats do seem to be unable to distinguish between trots, anarchists and none of the above tbf.


----------



## Streathamite (May 5, 2011)

Proper Tidy said:


> These twats do seem to be unable to distinguish between trots, anarchists and none of the above tbf.


her tankie history probably leads her to a default position of "oh, shoot them all"


----------



## nino_savatte (May 11, 2011)

I wasn't sure where to put this but it's a reminder that the Rally Against Debt (credit is also debt, so presumably they are rallying against that too) is this Saturday. 
http://rallyagainstdebt.org/

I'll be there to mock and jeer and take some photos. 

There's a counterdemo planned called The March of the Turkeys
https://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=125859550824372

There's also The Rally against the Rally Against Debt



> A few UKIP supporters have taken it upon themselves to set up this charming little event. http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=204678962884261
> 
> I thought it would be nice to join them on their little day out in London and peacefully rally at the same time AGAINST cuts.
> 
> ...


----------



## ddraig (May 13, 2011)

! wrong thread


----------



## BigTom (Jun 28, 2011)

Bumped cos the remaining youth cases from the Fortnum and Mason sit in have been dropped   For the adult defendants there will be test trials on the 5th of July (groups 1 & 2) and 25th July (3 & 4), which will involve around 20 defendants (not including me) who have been picked due to their apparent level of involvement, or previous convictions.. hopefully they'll all get dropped before anyway.
Sorry if I shouldn't have bumped this monster thread.. seemed the most appropriate place to put it, rather than the ukuncut thread..


----------



## ymu (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks Tom. Good news. Hope all goes to plan for the rest.


----------



## Fedayn (Jun 28, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Bumped cos the remaining youth cases from the Fortnum and Mason sit in have been dropped   For the adult defendants there will be test trials on the 5th of July (groups 1 & 2) and 25th July (3 & 4), which will involve around 20 defendants (not including me) who have been picked due to their apparent level of involvement, or previous convictions.. hopefully they'll all get dropped before anyway.
> Sorry if I shouldn't have bumped this monster thread.. seemed the most appropriate place to put it, rather than the ukuncut thread..



The fella who I put you onto, I take it he's up in July?


----------



## winjer (Jun 28, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Bumped cos the remaining youth cases from the Fortnum and Mason sit in have been dropped   For the adult defendants there will be test trials on the 5th of July (groups 1 & 2) and 25th July (3 & 4)


Trials will be in November, the July dates are just for them to enter pleas.


----------



## BigTom (Jun 29, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> The fella who I put you onto, I take it he's up in July?



This is just for the F&M defendants - I don't know when other defendants are up, I know some had bail appearances around now but I haven't heard anything of court dates.  If I'm thinking of the wrong person and you're talking about an F&M defendant, pm me




			
				winjer said:
			
		

> Trials will be in November, the July dates are just for them to enter pleas.



yeah that makes sense, it's not clear in the letter I got from my solicitor.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Jun 29, 2011)

The Evening Standard seems to think there will be a riot tomorrow?!?!


----------



## Dan U (Jun 29, 2011)

A police press release more like


----------



## BigTom (Jun 29, 2011)




----------



## TopCat (Jul 1, 2011)

My court date is the 14th July.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 1, 2011)

Fingers crossed mate


----------



## fractionMan (Jul 1, 2011)

yup.  good luck.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

TopCat said:


> My court date is the 14th July.


 
What's the charge TC?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 1, 2011)

Possession of offensive weapons.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jul 1, 2011)

Good luck


----------



## TopCat (Jul 1, 2011)

I need more than luck! But ta anyway for the support.


----------



## gunneradt (Jul 1, 2011)

if you're innocent, good luck.

If it was a weapon that's illegal, I wish you none and hope you get what you deserve.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 1, 2011)




----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

filled with ammonia


----------



## TopCat (Jul 1, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> if you're innocent, good luck.
> 
> If it was a weapon that's illegal, I wish you none and hope you get what you deserve.


 
mmmmm.


----------



## Dan U (Jul 1, 2011)

good luck


----------



## xes (Jul 1, 2011)

Yes, all the best TC. I'll bake a cake with a rocket launcher in, just incase.


----------



## Onket (Jul 1, 2011)

TopCat said:


> My court date is the 14th July.


 
Is this from something that happened on the 26th? Or the previous student demo?

Good luck either way, mate.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jul 1, 2011)

Aye, good luck mate.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Jul 1, 2011)

TopCat said:


> mmmmm.



Clearly you have to keep shtum, but if you are innocent, or were part of the peaceful Fortnum and Mason occupation, then the best of luck to you mate.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 1, 2011)

Good luck all those in court!


----------



## Ground Elder (Jul 1, 2011)

good luck TC, but next time leave the samurai sword at home...


----------



## BigTom (Jul 3, 2011)

as with the others, hope it goes well TC.. or as well as it can anyway..


----------



## magneze (Jul 3, 2011)

Indeed, good luck.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2011)

Well fuck it I am not going guilty like a lamb to the slaughter. This is going to be fought tooth and nail.


----------



## krink (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't care what you did or didn't do TC but I hope you and everyone else gets a good result. best of luck.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2011)

One lad got 12 months this morning at Kingston Crown Court. He plead guilty in the first instance, make a full confession during interview, had no previous, had just done his AS levels and had a University place waiting in September. The bar has been set. Fuck pleading guilty, fight to the bitter end.


----------



## krink (Jul 7, 2011)

fucking hell that is really harsh for the lad. I also learned the hard way the lesson about 'no comment'. fingers crossed for everyone else. when are you up TC?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2011)

I am up soon but it will just be to plead and then a long wait until trial.


----------



## Onket (Jul 7, 2011)

All the best with it next week, TC.


----------



## krink (Jul 7, 2011)

hope it's not too long to wait - I waited nearly 2 years from arrest to sentencing (years ago) and it takes it out of you. not sure what the rules are these days but when a barrister took over my case from the solicitors I felt much more confident about my chances.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2011)

I am feeling much better since I made the  decision to fight this case no matter what. Passivity can be depressing but I am going to fire all guns as it were.


----------



## Blagsta (Jul 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> One lad got 12 months this morning at Kingston Crown Court. He plead guilty in the first instance, make a full confession during interview, had no previous, had just done his AS levels and had a University place waiting in September. The bar has been set. Fuck pleading guilty, fight to the bitter end.


 
Stay strong!


----------



## krink (Jul 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I am feeling much better since I made the  decision to fight this case no matter what. Passivity can be depressing but I am going to fire all guns as it were.


 
good attitude pal, best of luck.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Jul 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> One lad got 12 months this morning at Kingston Crown Court. He plead guilty in the first instance, make a full confession during interview, had no previous, had just done his AS levels and had a University place waiting in September. The bar has been set. Fuck pleading guilty, fight to the bitter end.



What was he convicted of?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What was he convicted of?


 
Violent disorder...


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Jul 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Violent disorder...



!2 months does sound a bit harsh, but if he _was_ guilty of violent disorder then he can hardly expect to go unpunished. I suppose it depends on how violent and disorderly he actually was.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks for that Andrew.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 7, 2011)

whose choice was it to go crown on that?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2011)

He plead guilty so it would have been the magistrates decision to send it to Crown for sentencing. I am opting  for Crown on mine. Magistrates are mostly cunts. Juries may see things differently.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Jul 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Thanks for that Andrew.



Good luck mate, you sound like a decent bloke. I do mean that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 7, 2011)

TopCat said:


> He plead guilty so it would have been the magistrates decision to send it to Crown for sentencing. I am opting  for Crown on mine. Magistrates are mostly cunts. Juries may see things differently.


 
better the 12 normal people than three have a go tories I suppose. Best of.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2011)

Won't come to a head for me personally for ages and ages anyway. I aim to enjoy the rest of the summer and fret not.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 8, 2011)

yeah I read that yesterday  any details on what he'd actually done? I know violent disorder was the charge but wondering exactly what he'd done to get the charge - apparently someone went down for 12 months for violent disorder after throwing a plastic bottle at the israeli embassy gates a few years back! fucking bullshit and yeah fuck pleading guilty if you'll still get a custodial for it, might as well make the bastards work even if you've got very little chance of getting off.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 9, 2011)

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9128855.Talented_student_jailed_over_riot/

Threw two placard sticks at police outside of fortnum and mason on the 26th.  Gets 12 months. lessons to be learnt: mask up, don't hand yourself in, don't expect justice.  I bet he thought that he'd get a fine or a suspended sentence, I doubt he could have hurt anyone throwing placard sticks, certainly not riot police.. now he's in prison for a year (or 6 months I guess he could be out on good behaviour?)

Is there a way of finding out where he is going to jail? would be nice to send him a letter.. had the thought of starting a wordpress blog with details of anti-cuts protesters who have been jailed and where they are so people can write / send postal orders to them


----------



## TopCat (Jul 10, 2011)

This bit from The York Post encapsulates the establishment approach....

"But at some point during the demonstration, Fernie crossed the line. Possibly under the influence of drink, he chose to resort to violence. By doing that, he undermined everything he believed in. Social justice is achieved through argument, not mob rule. Today he is paying the price. There is no satisfaction at all in that, but at least we hope he has learned a lesson."


----------



## BigTom (Jul 10, 2011)

yeah def. TC .. I hope he and others have learnt a lesson.. don't hand yourself in, admit nothing.. 
Found out he is in Feltham YOI .. waiting to get a prisoner no.  if ppl want it to write to him, pm me and I'll get back to you when I have it.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Jul 10, 2011)

BigTom said:


> http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9128855.Talented_student_jailed_over_riot/
> 
> Threw two placard sticks at police outside of fortnum and mason on the 26th.  Gets 12 months. lessons to be learnt: *mask up*, don't hand yourself in, don't expect justice.  I bet he thought that he'd get a fine or a suspended sentence, I doubt he could have hurt anyone throwing placard sticks, certainly not riot police.. now he's in prison for a year (or 6 months I guess he could be out on good behaviour?)



Or alternatively don't go on a peaceful demonstration and start throwing stuff at people. You'd be amazed at how many of us manage to do just that. I've never hidden my face at a demo and I'm not going to start now.

However I agree that 12 months seems too harsh in this case.


----------



## skitr (Jul 11, 2011)

Well maybe you should consider it. Take into thought the publication of pictures from the recent anti EDL demos, and how many of those pictures are unpixilated. It's not a nice thing to have to consider, I know, and I can understand why people wouldn't want to do it, especially when you do have the intention of being on a peaceful demo but with the resurgence of sites such as Redwatch, the EDL taking an interest with regards to attacking anti cuts demos, and the ever expanding use of the shits that are F.I.T, it's something which has to be in peoples minds.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 11, 2011)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Or alternatively don't go on a peaceful demonstration and start throwing stuff at people. You'd be amazed at how many of us manage to do just that. I've never hidden my face at a demo and I'm not going to start now.
> 
> However I agree that 12 months seems too harsh in this case.


 
It was a violent demo from the beginning. The Police started the trouble in the morning.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2011)

Has Gilmour been sentenced yet anyone?


----------



## fractionMan (Jul 13, 2011)

BigTom said:


> http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/9128855.Talented_student_jailed_over_riot/
> 
> Threw two placard sticks at police outside of fortnum and mason on the 26th.  Gets 12 months. lessons to be learnt: mask up, don't hand yourself in, don't expect justice.  I bet he thought that he'd get a fine or a suspended sentence, I doubt he could have hurt anyone throwing placard sticks, certainly not riot police.. now he's in prison for a year (or 6 months I guess he could be out on good behaviour?)
> 
> Is there a way of finding out where he is going to jail? would be nice to send him a letter.. had the thought of starting a wordpress blog with details of anti-cuts protesters who have been jailed and where they are so people can write / send postal orders to them


 
12 months.  ffs.  You can get less for putting someone in hospital.


----------



## Onket (Jul 13, 2011)

12 months is a disgrace.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 13, 2011)

it's a clear message. Priorities lie with suppressing political dissent rather than addressing the seriousness of the individuals actions.


----------



## Onket (Jul 13, 2011)

It's continuing the clear message, yeah. Not good.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2011)

@skitra
There isnt any resurgance of Redwatch,its only updated every now and then and when it is its quite sparse.


----------



## skitr (Jul 13, 2011)

Yeah i should have clarified that. I meant the resurgence of sites such as Redwatch, and the like, not just that in particular.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2011)

Operation Malone Police are now sending out letters demanding people surrender or else! Have they not got enough manpower to go get everyone? Is there that many?


----------



## belboid (Jul 13, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Has Gilmour been sentenced yet anyone?


 
was meant to be July 8, but I cant see any report of it


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2011)

belboid said:


> was meant to be July 8, but I cant see any report of it


 
The met police web site (press site) said it had been postponed to the 12th July? Hazy memory though.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2011)

Gilmour is up today for sentencing. The best guess is that he will get 18 months. Which, given his background and contrite remorseful attitude will be an interesting indicator of the political nature of the judicial process.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2011)

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23969803-charlie-gilmour-to-be-sentenced-over-riot.do


----------



## Ground Elder (Jul 14, 2011)

> Confronting police lines in Parliament Street he is seen yelling: "Let them eat cake, they say, we don't eat cake. We will eat fire and ice and destruction because we are angry, very f***ing angry."


 Not the catchiest of chants, but maybe it'll catch on.


----------



## Onket (Jul 14, 2011)

What did he get, then?


----------



## belboid (Jul 14, 2011)

sentencing tomorrow


----------



## killer b (Jul 14, 2011)

Ground Elder said:


> Not the catchiest of chants, but maybe it'll catch on.


 
sounds like some shite his dad would write tbh.


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 15, 2011)

Just announced on BBC, Gilmour has got 16 months.


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 15, 2011)

TC in court yesterday too?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 15, 2011)

stephj said:


> Just announced on BBC, Gilmour has got 16 months.


 
Anyone who pleads guilty in this tranche of cases needs their head examined. May it pass quickly Charlie.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 15, 2011)

ETA FAO Stephj. No. I have been a bit vague on here as to the date as I don't want to allow the plod to tie my name to my monkier here. It's soon though.


----------



## krink (Jul 15, 2011)

16 months! again, very steep. wonder if the stiff sentencing has anything to do with prince charlie and his horse-faced woman getting proper embarrassed by the student demo? maybe they had a word to make sure everyone gets maximum? wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 17, 2011)

Frank Fernie has said his prisoner number can be made public for people who want to write to him in solidarity..
Prisoner a766ce
Feltham YOI
Bedfont Road
Feltham
Middlesex
TW13 4ND


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2011)

BREAKING: CPS has dropped 100+ Fortnum and Mason/ #ukuncut aggravated trespass cases. Full Guardian report to follow.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2011)

30 cases to continue.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jul 18, 2011)

good news, hopefully the 30 remaining will follow suit

Now sue the bastards!


----------



## BigTom (Jul 18, 2011)

http://blog.cps.gov.uk/2011/07/cps-...secute-109-fortnum-and-mason-protesters-.html

CPS release explaining decision.. just had email confirming that my case has been dropped.. surely this will add pressure onto the CPS to drop the rest as well?


----------



## gawkrodger (Jul 18, 2011)

'that they have not been involved in similar offences previously and that they played only a minor role in the offending behaviour;'

aka gunning for percieved leaders


----------



## BigTom (Jul 18, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> 'that they have not been involved in similar offences previously and that they played only a minor role in the offending behaviour;'
> 
> aka gunning for percieved leaders


 
yeah..  the people I know who are in that group of 30 definitely aren't leaders / organisers of the event.  I'd be surprised if any of those who actually planned/carried out the occupation of f&m stayed inside for long, knowing that they were leading many groups of people who were all used to organising themselves and would have no problem doing so once shown the space to do it in.. 
It really feels like the police haven't got an understanding of how UK Uncut is setup, but surely there have been other groups using similar organisational structures in the past?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 18, 2011)

they never get it though
there tiny minds can't think beyond "who is in charge?", "take us to your leader" etc
they just can't understand/fathom/imagine groups, demos and organisations without command structures or at the very least, someone leading

e2a and that like minded people can think for and organise themselves


----------



## ddraig (Jul 18, 2011)

oh and we, kinda, sort of, yes, umm lied
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/18/fortnum-mason-uk-uncut-charges-dropped
cunts


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2011)

I was up in court yesterday along with 7-8 others resulting from one student demo and the TUC anti cuts demo. All the cases were plead not guilty and all are going to the Crown Court. Interestingly the magistrate refused jurisdiction on all the cases  bar one.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2011)

Any sort of timetable yet TC?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2011)

Committal at the end of August, trial probably Nov/Dec. Freedom or prison soon after!


----------



## krink (Jul 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> just had email confirming that my case has been dropped..



nice one, congrats. fingers crossed for the rest.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2011)

I am pleased for you BigTom.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 19, 2011)

Cheers Krink & TC.. 

TC, let me know if there's anything I can do to help.. it looks like November is going to be a lot of trial dates and I'll be down in London for some/all of them (depending on employment status/money) so if you'd like support in the public gallery in court, pm me your date..


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Cheers Krink & TC..
> 
> TC, let me know if there's anything I can do to help.. it looks like November is going to be a lot of trial dates and I'll be down in London for some/all of them (depending on employment status/money) so if you'd like support in the public gallery in court, pm me your date..


 

If I get sent down I want everyone in the public gallery to pull out Black and Red flags and start bellowing "ANARCHISTA!" at the tops of their voices and do clenched fist salutes...

Then my loved ones should proceed to the prison gates and camp out like Lenin's mother for the duration no matter what the weather. Are you listening gloworm?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Frank Fernie has said his prisoner number can be made public for people who want to write to him in solidarity..
> Prisoner a766ce
> Feltham YOI
> Bedfont Road
> ...


 
Is that the right spelling for his name?


----------



## BigTom (Jul 19, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Is that the right spelling for his name?



Spelt like that on the facebook group, sometimes been Francis Fernie though, which I'd guess is his given name... 
http://www.facebook.com/groups/137693436309374?view=permalink&id=141321015946616
is the post on fb with his prisoner number.. that he is at Feltham was mentioned somewhere else on the group.

I'll be in the public gallery with a red & black for you.. probably not going to camp outside the gates for the duration mind..


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 24, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/24/uk-uncut-fortnum-mason-police



> Met police are accused of pursuing a 'vindictive' case against UK Uncut tax protesters
> 
> 
> They were, say prosecutors, the ringleaders of one of the most high-profile protest acts of recent years – the occupation in March of the luxury Fortnum & Mason store in Mayfair during an anti-cuts demonstration. But supporters of the 30 activists whose trial starts this week say their treatment is irrational and vindictive, and that charges of aggravated trespass should be lifted, as they were for more than 100 of their fellow UK Uncut activists last week.
> ...


----------



## skitr (Jul 29, 2011)

i was posting in the other thread, but basically, i was one of the f&m. i was in a bit of a weird position where i wasn't in the 30 that were being prosecuted, but i wasn't on the discontinuences list. Anyway, without going on too much, got confirmation today they've been dropped. Thanks to all on here for support and everything.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 29, 2011)




----------



## past caring (Jul 29, 2011)

TopCat said:


> If I get sent down I want everyone in the public gallery to pull out Black and Red flags and start bellowing "ANARCHISTA!" at the tops of their voices and do clenched fist salutes...
> 
> Then my loved ones should proceed to the prison gates and camp out like Lenin's mother for the duration no matter what the weather. Are you listening gloworm?



Times I've been up my brief wanted no-one in the public gallery but the girlfriend - on at least one occasion was told to ask my mates to go home at the lunch break 'cos they looked like a bunch of n'er-do-wells and it might be thought we were trying to intimidate the jury. They get funny ideas some of these bods.......


----------



## sihhi (Jul 29, 2011)

skitr said:


> i was posting in the other thread, but basically, i was one of the f&m. i was in a bit of a weird position where i wasn't in the 30 that were being prosecuted, but i wasn't on the discontinuences list. Anyway, without going on too much, got confirmation today they've been dropped. Thanks to all on here for support and everything.


 
It's the legal observer+support team what done it.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 30, 2011)

skitr said:


> i was posting in the other thread, but basically, i was one of the f&m. i was in a bit of a weird position where i wasn't in the 30 that were being prosecuted, but i wasn't on the discontinuences list. Anyway, without going on too much, got confirmation today they've been dropped. Thanks to all on here for support and everything.


 
Good stuff.


----------



## skitr (Jul 30, 2011)

Cheers everyone. TC, let us know if you're alright with people being at yours, if you want them.


----------



## TopCat (Aug 9, 2011)

Well does not look like there will be much room in prison soon!


----------



## Onket (Aug 9, 2011)

What's happened?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 10, 2011)

The police have arrested 770 in London alone with hundreds more arrests to come. This at a time of the highest prison population ever. Realpolitik should keep me free...


----------



## BigTom (Aug 10, 2011)

I was just saying this evening that this could well mean that the remaining f&m cases get dropped too.. the CPS is going to be overloaded right now and no-one is going to give a fuck about anti-cuts protesters when they've got looters to bray about.  Hopefully this factor will also help with appeals for those already convicted.


----------



## Onket (Aug 11, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The police have arrested 770 in London alone with hundreds more arrests to come. This at a time of the highest prison population ever.



Ah yes, that.


----------



## BigTom (Aug 11, 2011)

I saw 1,500 total arrests earlier today.  CPS and courts will be overloaded with those, as will police investigators, so I can see anti-cuts stuff getting dropped hopefully and not just adjourned


----------



## TopCat (Aug 15, 2011)

They may well make a lot of errors. These may be of benefit.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Aug 16, 2011)

> @FM145
> 
> 
> Support the Fortnum and Mason defendants! City Of Westminster Magistrates Court, 1.30pm this Friday! #FM145


----------



## TopCat (Aug 31, 2011)

Committed for trial now at Kingston Crown Court.


----------



## fractionMan (Aug 31, 2011)

gl


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 13, 2012)

2nd lot of fortnum and mason accused all found guilty.


----------



## frogwoman (Mar 13, 2012)

bastards!


----------



## BigTom (Mar 13, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> 2nd lot of fortnum and mason accused all found guilty.


 
I was just about to bump this thread for that.. have you seen what the FM defence campaign have said the judge said?




			
				@FM145 twitter feed said:
			
		

> All defendants found guilty. Judge accepts they were "non-threatening and did not intend to intimidate" but "none of these points help".


https://twitter.com/#!/FM145/status/179582322939674624

The charge, aggravated tresspass rests on intention - that's what the whole thing is about.. you tresspass somewhere with the intention of intimidating.. 



> A person commits the offence of aggravated trespass if he trespasses on land [F1...in the open air]... and, in relation to any lawful activity which persons are engaging in or are about to engage in on that or adjoining land [F2...in the open air]... , does there anything w*hich is intended by him to have the effect*—
> (a)*of intimidating* those persons or any of them so as to deter them or any of them from engaging in that activity,


 
(my emphasis.. the bits in[] brackets were removed from the original law in order to convict Danny Chivers in relation to a power station climate camp action)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/68 


So how can a judge decide that people had no intention of intimidating but find them guilty..

Mind you, one of the 10 got their case dropped in court because they only had 16 leaflets, not the 20 that the CPS had decided was the threshold for not dropping the charges, so these trials are all wrapped up in madness anyway.
http://fortnum145.org/2012/03/12/wh...-crime-when-you-have-more-than-20-apparently/

Waiting to see if I can get hold of the full judgement on this one. I don't see how it can be upheld on appeal if the judge has actually said they didn't intend to intimidate.


----------



## fractionMan (Mar 13, 2012)

Judge accepts they were "non-threatening and did not intend to intimidate" but "none of these points help".​ 
wtf ​ 
_those points don't help because we were going to find you guilty whatever._


----------



## BigTom (Mar 13, 2012)

> Fans of postmodernism will appreciate the chronology of this trial – first, the judge chose a verdict – guilty. Then, he established with the prosecution who was to be found guilty. Finally, he worked out what they were guilty of.


 
http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2012/03/fortnum-and-mason-trial-b-the-farce-rolls-on/

Good post done yesterday or the day before by Adam Ramsay (one of the trial A defendants).. think he has it absolutely right.. but you'd think they would be a bit more clever about it..


----------



## ymu (Mar 14, 2012)

That is farcical. Roll on the appeal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2012)

It is instructive to compare and contrast the fate of the uk uncut people with that of the black bloc


----------



## ymu (Mar 14, 2012)

It's a good point, but both are needed. For now, anyway.


----------



## newbie (Mar 14, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> It is instructive to compare and contrast the fate of the uk uncut people with that of the black bloc


link?  I don't know where to look for the information to do that.


----------



## ymu (Mar 14, 2012)

newbie said:


> link? I don't know where to look for the information to do that.


No black bloc got arrested (or if they did, no charges stuck).


----------



## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

BigTom said:


> I was just about to bump this thread for that.. have you seen what the FM defence campaign have said the judge said?
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/FM145/status/179582322939674624
> ...


 
Twitter is fucking shite, though - I would not rely on something said there as any accurate statement of what the judge said. However, regardless of whether the judge did or did not say that, I am surprised that having looked up the relevant legislation, you then didn't quote it in full;



> *68 Offence of aggravated trespass.*
> (1)A person commits the offence of aggravated trespass if he trespasses on land [F1...in the open air]... and, in relation to any lawful activity which persons are engaging in or are about to engage in on that or adjoining land [F2...in the open air]... , does there anything which is intended by him to have the effect—
> (a)of intimidating those persons or any of them so as to deter them or any of them from engaging in that activity,
> (b)of obstructing that activity, or
> (c)of disrupting that activity.


 
So entirely possible to be convicted of the offence under heads (b) or (c) whilst at the same time having no intention to intimidate.


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## killer b (Mar 14, 2012)

that does put a somewhat different light on the matter (and the chances at appeal too...)


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## Onket (Mar 14, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> It is instructive to compare and contrast the fate of the uk uncut people with that of the black bloc


 


ymu said:


> No black bloc got arrested (or if they did, no charges stuck).


 
I suspect the fate of the UK Uncut people isn't going to persuade many to take up Black Bloc type activities instead. Not instantly, at least.

But there is a clear message in there.


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Twitter is fucking shite, though - I would not rely on something said there as any accurate statement of what the judge said. However, regardless of whether the judge did or did not say that, I am surprised that having looked up the relevant legislation, you then didn't quote it in full;
> 
> 
> 
> So entirely possible to be convicted of the offence under heads (b) or (c) whilst at the same time having no intention to intimidate.


 
Yes, but that's not what the charge was.. they charged under (a), it was specific - the CPS fucked up basically, they decided on that then tried to change it on the first day of trial A to charge under (b).. sorry that wasn't clear.

But you are right about twitter.. I haven't seen the full verdict but been told by email from one of the defendants that it was the same as the first trial, which is that there is no evidence of individuals doing any acts which are intimidating but as a group we were and that it was our intention to indimidate the staff and customers in the shop in order to take control of the space.. so individuals done under joint enterprise


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

They may have been charged under (a), but were they _convicted_ under (a)? A person charged with murder may be found guilty of the lesser offence of manslaughter - they don't get off the manslaughter because the CPS brought the wrong charge. Nor does it require a new trial for the right charge to be brought.

And in the case of aggravated trespass, the law says that a person is guilty of the offence if any of heads (a) - (c) apply. So if clear evidence (such that it meets the necessary standard of proof) emerges during the course of the trial that head (b) is met, I cannot see that anyone is going to get a not guilty simply because the prosecution brought the case under head (a).


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes, they were convicted under (a), I sat through the first trial and it was very clear that the CPS had mistakenly charged under (a) and wanted to change it to (b), but the judge wouldn't let them, because they'd insisted at a previous case management hearing that they wanted to charge under (a).

I don't see why there would have been any discussion of changing it in court if they could have been charged under (a) and convicted under (b).


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

Hmmm - I think you may have been misled by the discussion in the first case. Legal types never miss an opportunity to show that they are cleverer than one another - and that includes judges. So the judge would, doubtless, have taken opportunity to express some surprise that the defendants were charged under (a) - and might have taken the opportunity of showing that he was boss by not allowing the CPS to change the charge to (b). The formal reason for the discussion would be so that the court, jury and defendants were clear as to which sort of case the CPS were trying to prove

But it doesn't fucking _matter_....you're guilty if _any_ of the three heads apply. The CPS doesn't have to get it right as to which one applies, so long as sufficient evidence emerges during the trial that one of them does.

Are you certain that defendants in the latest trial (or even the first) were convicted under (a)?


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

And do you _seriously_ think that an appeal can be brought on the basis that we are guilty of heads (b) and (c) but we were only charged under (a) so we should get off?


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm certain that the defendants in the first trial were convicted under (a), I haven't seen the full ruling from the second one, but from what I've been told it's essentially the same ruling (which isn't surprising).

The judges basically said that although the CPS couldn't show any evidence of the individual defendants engaging in any acts which were intimidating (in fact for some of the defendants there was no evidence at all, aside from the arrest proving they were there), but that as a group we had entered the shop in a manner that was intended to be intimidating, and convicted the individuals on that basis.

and I'm not saying we are guilty of b and c, but that's not what the CPS charged and not what the appeal would be based on obviously.. the appeal would be on the grounds that joint enterprise doesn't or shouldn't apply in this case, and/or that the way we entered the shop was not / not intended to be intimidating.

You might be right about the discussion, the solicitors seemed pretty happy that the CPS had gone forward with charging under (a) though, so I took it to mean that it had significance.


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## ymu (Mar 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> They may have been charged under (a), but were they _convicted_ under (a)? A person charged with murder may be found guilty of the lesser offence of manslaughter - they don't get off the manslaughter because the CPS brought the wrong charge. Nor does it require a new trial for the right charge to be brought.


That's unique to murder/manslaughter. There are recognised defences to murder which, if successful, constitute manslaughter. So the jury has to be allowed to decide on manslaughter if they reject murder. They can't be prosecuted on both charges because the CPS would have to argue against its own preferred charge of murder in order to prosecute for manslaughter. It is effectively up to the defendant to prove manslaughter in cases where there is no dispute about who is culpable, only why.


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

See, the problem is that a person is charged with an offence - in this case it is aggravated trespass. A person is guilty of that offence if any of (a), (b) or (c) are true. The crown may say you are guilty of an offence because you did (a), but it is entirely open to the court to find that you didn't do (a) but that you did do (b) or (c) - in which case you don't get 'not guilty' as the verdict. If the judge did say what he is reported to have said, then I'm certain that is what has happened here.

(As an aside and speaking as someone who was outside F and M at the time that people entered and was outside whilst some were on the balcony I cannot see any basis on which it would be possible to argue that (b) and (c) were not true)


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2012)

I might see if there's a digital copy of the verdict from trial A for you to see. I wasn't at trial B, and I haven't seen the verdict, but trial A they were definitely convicted, using joint enterprise as the basis, of aggravated trespass under (a).

As per my last post, ianal, I can't say you are wrong, you sound certain in a way that suggests to me that you've had experience of them doing exactly what you say they can, but I am left not understanding why everyone - CPS, defence, judge - seemed to think it was important which subsection was being charged.  What you said, I can understand between the judge and cps, but why would the defence solicitors have been happy that the charge was (a) and not (b) or (c) if it didn't matter?  
This is Bindmans so they are not an inexperienced firm.


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2012)

http://www.box.com/s/180c4056f2e8893e92d2

Links to a pdf of the trial A verdict


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2012)

> These defendants are all charged that:
> 
> On 26th March 2011 at Fortnum and Mason, Piccadilly WIA1ER,having trespassed on
> land, naineìy the premises of Fortnum and Mason, Piocadiliy, London, and in reiation
> ...


 
Does it matter that the charge doesn't specify s68 (1) (a), rather than (b) or (c), but the wording of the charge says intending to intimidate?
I'm not sure why s68 (3) is mentioned, that's the tariff for the charge.


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

ymu said:


> That's unique to murder/manslaughter. There are recognised defences to murder which, if successful, constitute manslaughter. So the jury has to be allowed to decide on manslaughter if they reject murder. They can't be prosecuted on both charges because the CPS would have to argue against its own preferred charge of murder in order to prosecute for manslaughter. It is effectively up to the defendant to prove manslaughter in cases where there is no dispute about who is culpable, only why.


 
It was a mistaken analogy, but the general point stands.

Section 4 of the Public Order act 1986 provides;



> 4 Fear or provocation of violence.(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—
> (a)uses towards another person threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or
> (b)distributes or displays to another person any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
> with intent to cause that person to believe that immediate unlawful violence will be used against him or another by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by that person or another, or whereby that person is likely to believe that such violence will be used or it is likely that such violence will be provoked.(2)An offence under this section may be committed in a public or a private place, except that no offence is committed where the words or behaviour are used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation is distributed or displayed, by a person inside a dwelling and the other person is also inside that or another dwelling.
> ...


 
The Crown may charge you with an offence under s. (1)(b) but fail to show that any "writing, sign or other visible representation" was displayed. But if it emerges during the course of the trial that you did instead and _in fact_ use threatening behaviour, you are going to get a guilty under s. (1)(a).


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

BigTom said:


> http://www.box.com/s/180c4056f2e8893e92d2
> 
> Links to a pdf of the trial A verdict


 
Yes, well looking at that it's clear that the judge took the meaning of "intimidate" in its widest form;



> 2) Was there an intention to intimidate?
> 
> The New Shorter Oxford Dictionary defines intimidate as:
> 
> ...


 
So, yes, they've got a guilty on the basis that (a) was met. It may well be that in the first trial the Crown wanted to change things to go for (b) or (c) because they felt it would be easier to get a guilty - but Courts can be arsey about what they perceive as the prosecution buggering about and the change was refused on that basis.

Again, if the judge in the second case said what he is reported to have said, it probably means that he's just a bit more savvy - and didn't want his decision overturned on the basis that there had been no intention to intimidate (are any of the first lot appealing?) and has given a guilty on grounds that (I think) are pretty unarguable.


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## ymu (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm not sure how that Act operates in law. Perhaps it was to do with the CPS basing their case on intent to intimidate without covering the other grounds? Or possibly that they have to select one ground only.

These things often have CPS guidance somewhere. That's where I got the stuff on murder/manslaughter from.


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## BigTom (Mar 14, 2012)

past caring said:


> Yes, well looking at that it's clear that the judge took the meaning of "intimidate" in its widest form;
> 
> 
> 
> So, yes, they've got a guilty on the basis that (a) was met. It may well be that in the first trial the Crown wanted to change things to go for (b) or (c) because they felt it would be easier to get a guilty - but Courts can be arsey about what they perceive as the prosecution buggering about and the change was refused on that basis.


 
Yes, that's exactly it.



> Again, if the judge in the second case said what he is reported to have said, it probably means that he's just a bit more savvy - and didn't want his decision overturned on the basis that there had been no intention to intimidate (are any of the first lot appealing?) and has given a guilty on grounds that (I think) are pretty unarguable.


 
I think the twitter that I quoted misrepresented what the second judge said (different people).  I suspect that when we see the full verdict it will be more or less the same as the first one.


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## past caring (Mar 14, 2012)

In layman's terms the law says "your commit offence 'A' if you do x, y or z." But it's entirely possible for the Crown to prosecute on the basis that you did x _and_ z - or even all three. Nothing to stop them covering as many bases as they think they have evidence for.

Of course, the Crown has to say on what specific basis you are being charged so that you know what you have to refute - but let us imagine that the defendants in the second trial were charged with (a) but were mug enough to say "Oh we didn't intend to intimidate anyone or scare anyone, we just wanted to occupy F and M and shut it down for a few hours" - that's going to be enough to get a guilty under (b) or (c) or both. Even if, as in the first trial, none of the defendants gave evidence, I would hate to have the job of trying to show that their (undisputed) presence in F and M was not intended to have the effect of disrupting or obstructing the activity of the store.


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## BigTom (Mar 23, 2012)

Trial C have been found NOT guilty!

Don't know any details but will post again when I do.. fuck yeah


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 23, 2012)

BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17496073


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 22, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21901009

What a crock of fucking shit.


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