# Independence for Wales?



## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

With the debate in Scotland so tightly fought, there's reports of a growing hunger for independence for Wales, although it seems that there's still a long way to go. 


> Tomos knows the arguments against. Wales is not economically strong enough to cope by itself; its voice in Europe and the world would be too weak; its proximity to England (almost half of Welsh people live within 25 miles of the border) means the two countries are too closely entwined to separate; above all, those polls show that most people have no interest in independence.
> 
> But she is having none of it. "People tell us we're a poor country. Wales is not poor. We've got huge natural resources. We're poor because Westminster makes the rules. They've never made the rules in favour of us and it's getting worse. People are having to use food banks; I never thought that would happen. There's so much unemployment in my area [north west Wales] that young people are disempowered and leaving."
> 
> ...


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## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

wrth gwrs!! of course 

Carwyn Jones has been an embarrassment during the Scottish campaign


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

"600 years ago"? "Our state"?

Kinell, if you have to invoke 600 years ago, your argument is lost before it even started.


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## Belushi (Sep 17, 2014)

Yes, but only if the Welsh economy was in a substantially better state.


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## Dillinger4 (Sep 17, 2014)

One of the best books on Wales, The Welsh and Independence:

When was Wales?: A History of the Welsh by Gwyn A. Williams



> It scans the landscape of Wales as sees the country for what it is - a people who, against all odds, have survived by making and remaking themselves generation after generation.



http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/When_was_Wales.html?id=QUJ0QgAACAAJ


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## Belushi (Sep 17, 2014)

Managed to vote no when I meant to vote undecided


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## Belushi (Sep 17, 2014)

Not that any of us Llundoners should have a vote


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## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> "600 years ago"? "Our state"?
> 
> Kinell, if you have to invoke 600 years ago, your argument is lost before it even started.


Except Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different to mainstream English politics for centuries and - against all odds - has retained its own language. And that's no mean feat at all.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 17, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Yes, but only if the Welsh economy was in a substantially better state.




expand it to cover its early niddle ages borders, taking in brizzle and a swathe of what is now england. That should generate a few more quid


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

editor said:


> Except Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different to mainstream English politics.


In what way?


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## souljacker (Sep 17, 2014)

I don't think Wales has got much that England really wants, so your welcome to bugger off IMO.


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## Belushi (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In what way?



Plaid Cymru have no English seats


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## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

souljacker said:


> I don't think Wales has got much that England really wants, so your welcome to bugger off IMO.


please fuck off with this shit


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Plaid Cymru have no English seats


Wales is different because it has a nationalist movement? So a nationalist movement validates itself through its own existence?


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## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In what way?


Oh come on. Look at their voting patterns over the past 50 years, for starters. It also has a language that has survived numerous attempts to kill it off.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

editor said:


> Oh come on. Look at their voting patterns over the past 50 years, for starters.


Compared to what? Yorkshire, perhaps? Or, more relevantly, the South West of England - rural seats for the Liberals and a few Tories, Labour doing well in the larger cities?

I would suggest to you rather the opposite - that where social conditions are similar, voting patterns across England and Wales have been similar.


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## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Compared to what? Yorkshire, perhaps? Or, more relevantly, the South West of England - rural seats for the Liberals and a few Tories, Labour doing well in the larger cities?


Compared to the government that is ruling them, for that is the bit that actually matters.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

editor said:


> Compared to the government that is ruling them, for that is the bit that actually matters.


Same can be said of many comparably sized chunks of England.


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## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Same can be said of many comparably sized chunks of England.


Yes it can, and they should be free to pursue independence/devolution if they feel that they're not being represented. 

So how does that take anything away from the debate about independence for Wales?


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes it can, and they should be free to pursue independence/devolution if they feel that they're not being represented.
> 
> So how does that take anything away from the debate about independence for Wales?


It takes away from your claims that Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different from England in its politics.


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## ffsear (Sep 17, 2014)

Yes,  and kick Swansea out the premiership


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## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

UKIP have been polling higher than PC across wales in the most recent polls.

In fact, explicitly unionist parties have at least 84% support going by the welsh political barometer.


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## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It takes away from your claims that Wales has managed to remain fundamentally different from England in its politics.


Nope. Wales has, in the main, politically remained fundamentally different from the politics of the ruling government.


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## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> UKIP have been polling higher than PC across wales in the most recent polls.


Yes, the political landscape is fragmenting due to the absence of anything representing the traditional Labour values that Wales used to be rock-solid behind.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

editor said:


> Nope. Wales has, in the main, politically remained fundamentally different from the politics of the ruling government.


It has? In what way? And in what way has its difference expressed itself in a distinctly Welsh manner, distinguishing it from similar areas in England?


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## editor (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It has? In what way? And in what way has its difference expressed itself in a distinctly Welsh manner, distinguishing it from similar areas in England?


If you're going to wilfully ignore the clear point I've repeatedly made, I'm going to give up.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

editor said:


> If you're going to wilfully ignore the clear point I've repeatedly made, I'm going to give up.


I don't think your point is clear. I think it is confused and wrong.


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## Belushi (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It has? In what way? And in what way has its difference expressed itself in a distinctly Welsh manner, distinguishing it from similar areas in England?



Not sure you're comparing like with like there; Wales is a nation like Scotland or Ireland, areas of England aren't.


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## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

please don't wreck this thread with your antagonistic nit picking LBJ, please


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## souljacker (Sep 17, 2014)

ddraig said:


> please don't wreck this thread with your antagonistic nit picking LBJ, please



Since when were you nominated thread policeman?


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## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

notice the please? do as you wish
really tiresome and unhelpful comment though
IMO of course

e2a i meant yours not LBJ's


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Not sure you're comparing like with like there; Wales is a nation like Scotland or Ireland, areas of England aren't.


Comparing an area of 3 million with an area of 50 + million isn't comparing like with like either. Whatever the content of Wales's nationhood, I would say that it doesn't contain a distinct political tradition from England (or Scotland necessarily) - particularly when it comes to the Labour movement.


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## souljacker (Sep 17, 2014)

ddraig said:


> notice the please? do as you wish
> really tiresome and unhelpful comment though
> IMO of course
> 
> e2a i meant yours not LBJ's



Not entirely serious though but I thought that would be obvious.


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## ddraig (Sep 17, 2014)

souljacker said:


> Not entirely serious though but I thought that would be obvious.


it's not obvious no, tiresome yes


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 17, 2014)

The last poll I saw there was substantially more support for the abolition of the assembly than there was for independence (something like 23% to 8%).

I'd be a 'No' - for what its worth - 'head' and 'heart' to use the current parlance.


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## Plumdaff (Sep 17, 2014)

Eventually, I think yes. My understanding is that current polling is about 17% pro independence here, so clearly a long way to go. What's more likely in the short term in demand for changes to the Barnett formula and greater devolution. In the longer term, especially if there's a successful independent Scotland, I can only see support growing.


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## chilango (Sep 17, 2014)

Dillinger4 said:


> One of the best books on Wales, The Welsh and Independence:
> 
> When was Wales?: A History of the Welsh by Gwyn A. Williams
> 
> ...



Funnily enough I'm just about to finish re-reading this for the first time in years.


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## 8ball (Sep 17, 2014)

ddraig said:


> please fuck off with this shit



Dunno how much panic we'd have had for the last couple of weeks over Scotland if it hadn't been for the oil...


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 17, 2014)

Plumdaff said:


> In the longer term, especially if there's a successful independent Scotland, I can only see support growing.



Though I would be a 'No', a 'Yes' vote in Scotland could put Wales in a potentially difficult situation within what would remain of the union  - population of the UK's celtic fringe halves overnight, and Wales and NI (whose protestants would presumably have their own crisis to deal with) squeezed in with the much much larger England with over 90% of the population and resources.


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## Belushi (Sep 17, 2014)

I'm hoping the English overcompensate and throw money at us like a new stepdad trying to buy our affection if the Scots scarper :thumbs :


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## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I'm hoping the English overcompensate and throw money at us like a new stepdad trying to buy our affection if the Scots scarper :thumbs :


Us? You're a fucking cockney.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 17, 2014)

Gavin Bl said:


> Though I would be a 'No', a 'Yes' vote in Scotland could put Wales in a potentially difficult situation within what would remain of the union  - population of the UK's celtic fringe halves overnight, and Wales and NI (whose protestants would presumably have their own crisis to deal with) squeezed in with the much much larger England with over 90% of the population and resources.



 maybe, maybe - but I sense a hardening of attitudes in England towards this (and indeed in Wales to the prospect of Scotland leaving)


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

Back Welsh independence if you like. 

But don't do it on the back of some bullshit notion based on a semi-mytholigised account of one warlord's military victory over another warlord hundreds of years ago.

And please don't do it on the back of an ahistorical account of the Welsh Labour movement that ignores the British element of it, the English (and Scottish - Keir Hardie) influence on Welsh labour and the Welsh influence on English labour. 

Please don't highlight the Welsh language while ignoring the English mass immigration of the 19th century and its influence on culture, the number of Welsh people whose descendants are English economic migrants. 

Welsh culture draws from many sources. Welsh history has many strands. Welsh nationalism tends to be very choosy as to which strands it chooses to pay attention to. That is not intellectually honest.


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## Plumdaff (Sep 18, 2014)

There are plenty of English people in the Scottish Yes campaign. I think it's entirely possible to have a Welsh Independence Movement that embraces the English history of migration into Wales, and the Somali, Maltese, Pakistani, Italian etc too


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

too right Plumdaff


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

Plumdaff said:


> There are plenty of English people in the Scottish Yes campaign. I think it's entirely possible to have a Welsh Independence Movement that embraces the English history of migration into Wales, and the Somali, Maltese, Pakistani, Italian etc too


True enough. Those are not the noises coming from the Plaid mps quoted in the OP, though.


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> True enough. Those are not the noises coming from the Plaid mps quoted in the OP, though.


please can you stop this

Plaid are inclusive and socialist

you'll of course disagree but i think you are making this thread very negative already

what is wrong with independence? you'll still be able to get on the same train and visit from London won't you


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## JTG (Sep 18, 2014)

ddraig said:


> please can you stop this
> 
> Plaid are inclusive and socialist
> 
> ...


Wales will be denied use of the Severn Tunnel and the Forest of Dean shall become a DMZ


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

and yer football teams will be forever confined to wemberley!


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## Plumdaff (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> True enough. Those are not the noises coming from the Plaid mps quoted in the OP, though.


 
Firstly, there's clearly two strands to Plaid - the traditional, Welsh speaking heartlands Plaid, and the more Leanne Wood style left wing politics Plaid. I'd say your depiction of Plaid as simply the former is a bit dated. There's a dynamic there and a balance to be struck between celebrating some of the distinct elements of Welsh national identity without allowing that to be exclusive or stuck in the past - a great example of modern Welsh national identity is that my partner was taught Welsh by a Somali-Welsh bloke from Grangetown who does the announcements at Cardiff City. 

Any remotely successful independence movement would need to be about more than a few MPs, and much more than a political party. I'd vote Yes in Scotland and when I lived there I never once voted SNP, nor would I now. Part of the success of the Yes campaign in Scotland is that it is seen as far more than a vehicle for the SNP, albeit that that party plays a part in it.


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

bang on! thanks

Ali is a great guy!


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## nogojones (Sep 18, 2014)

I'm English, but lived in Wales a good 25 years. I'm unlikely to ever vote for Plaid but I'd vote for independence. Its clearly a separate country with most folks here sharing some sort of cultural identity as Welsh rather than British. 

That it would improve our lives in any clear way is questionable, but fuck the union


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

I've got a lot of time for Leanne Wood's politics.


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## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

If Belgium can be a independent nation (which is smaller than Wales but has 5 times the population) why can't Wales?

This argument that Wales isn't financially viable as a nation frankly baffles me.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

8den said:


> If Belgium can be a independent nation (which is smaller than Wales but has 5 times the population) why can't Wales?
> 
> This argument that Wales isn't financially viable as a nation frankly baffles me.


It's sadly a common (non) argument to put down the Welsh.


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## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

8den said:


> If Belgium can be a independent nation (which is smaller than Wales but has 5 times the population) why can't Wales?
> 
> This argument that Wales isn't financially viable as a nation frankly baffles me.



It's viable, but we'd be worst off financially if we left the Union.


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## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

Belushi said:


> It's viable, but we'd be worst off financially if we left the Union.



Again I don't understand why people think that. You'd not have to pay for the tumor of London. You would have a rough couple of years, may lose your free prescription sop, but I really don't understand why a independent Wales wouldn't be viable.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

nogojones said:


> I'm English, but lived in Wales a good 25 years. I'm unlikely to ever vote for Plaid but I'd vote for independence. Its clearly a separate country with most folks here sharing some sort of cultural identity as Welsh rather than British.
> 
> That it would improve our lives in any clear way is questionable, but fuck the union


Culturally, I think South Wales has more in common with Southwest England than it has with North Wales. 

But cultural identities are not static - perhaps it's changing.


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## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

8den said:


> Again I don't understand why people think that. You'd not have to pay for the tumor of London. You would have a rough couple of years, may lose your free prescription sop, but I really don't understand why a independent Wales wouldn't be viable.



Again, it would be viable; but we would in all likelihood be a poorer country than we are now. We're a small economy GDP is lower than the rest of the UK and most of Western Europe and sadly we don't have the strengths of the Scottish economy and aren't a net contributor to the UK as the Scots are.


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## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> It's sadly a common (non) argument to put down the Welsh.



I've heard a awful lot of Bullshit from the No campaign in Scotland. 

Ireland declared independence without the kind of natural resources Scotland has at it's disposal. 

To be honest and a bit weird, I wouldn't have been bothered by Ireland being ruled by Westminister for the last 70 years. They frankly wouldn't have been the Catholic Church dominated cronyist wankers that have dominated Irish politics since we left the union. We'd have the NHS, and the English wouldn't have done much worse than our own lot. 


And N_igma CR and LiamO pile in, in 10, 9, 8.....


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Culturally, I think South Wales has more in common with Southwest England than it has with North Wales.
> 
> But cultural identities are not static - perhaps it's changing.


There's far more 'Welshness' apparent in Cardiff than there was, say, 15 years ago. 

Wales has never been so alive and strong culturally.


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## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> There's far more 'Welshness' apparent in Cardiff than there was, say, 15 years ago.
> 
> Wales has never been so alive and strong culturally.



Certainly true in the Valleys as well, much more than when I was a kid.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Again, it would be viable; but we would in all likelihood be a poorer country than we are now. We're a small economy GDP is lower than the rest of the UK and most of Western Europe and sadly we don't have the strengths of the Scottish economy and aren't a net contributor to the UK as the Scots are.


Hmmm


> *Myth #1: Wales is too small to survive as an independent nation*
> *Myth Busted:* Wales, a country of 3 million people, is not too small to survive as an independent country. It is a fact that there are over 100 other independent countries in the world that are smaller than Wales. In fact, of the top 10 wealthiest countries in terms of GDP per capita, 9 have a population of less than 5 million, and 7 of those have a smaller population than Wales.
> 
> Of the countries of the European Union, some of the most prosperous are small countries:
> ...


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## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Again, it would be viable; but we would in all likelihood be a poorer country than we are now. We're a small economy GDP is lower than the rest of the UK and most of Western Europe and sadly we don't have the strengths of the Scottish economy and aren't a net contributor to the UK as the Scots are.



Again I don't see it. Your GDP is lower because the UK is London skewed. There's all sorts of creative accounting and promotion of Welsh industries you could do. Look at the Whole double Irish corporate tax shenanigans we get away with. 

(Go for it, just don't muscle in on our tax dodges)


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## 8ball (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> Wales has never been so alive and strong culturally.


 
I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).


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## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't think you're quote really addresses comparative Welsh economic weakness (which is to do with deindustrialisation than size Ed).


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

8ball said:


> I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).


I meant in terms of Welsh identity being expressed through art and culture. 

When I was growing up, there was almost an embarrassment about being Welsh.


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## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

8den said:


> Again I don't see it. Your GDP is lower because the UK is London skewed. There's all sorts of creative accounting and promotion of Welsh industries you could do. Look at the Whole double Irish corporate tax shenanigans we get away with.
> 
> (Go for it, just don't muscle in on our tax dodges)



Historically that is true but there's no getting away from the fact that in many ways were still a rust belt economy.  Now it may well be true that could be better addressed in the long term as an independent state, but that's a different argument.


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

8ball said:


> I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).


anything to back this up please?


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## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

8ball said:


> I thought there had been a reduction in Welsh speakers over the last few years (obviously that's only one facet of cultural vibrancy but seems worth observing).



Again I don't see the relevance of the number of speakers of a language to the vibrance of it's culture.

Gaeilge is taught appallingly in Irish schools. It's a oral language without a written literary tradition. And yet I had to study Greek and Latin to be taught about our finest epic "The Tain"

Despite the fact that language is mandatory for most Irish kids in your leaving cert, the level of basic skill in the language in the general public is shocking. In fact I was recently told by a barrister that if you are caught bang to rights, bloody fingerprints on the knife guilty of a crime, ask to tried in Irish. Everyone from the prosecution to the judge to the Garda are all supposed to be fluent in the language. But in practical terms aren't. The possibilities of a mistrial are massive.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

Belushi said:


> I don't think you're quote really addresses comparative Welsh economic weakness (which is to do with deindustrialisation than size Ed).


De-industrialisation is way behind us.



> But the Rhondda has coped with dramatic social change far better than many other communities. Less than a century ago there were more than 100,000 miners working in the Rhondda alone. Now there are none. Work was manual, male and local. Now, work will just as probably be done by a woman, it will almost certainly require travel and very few people will be in unskilled manual jobs. In just three generations the whole world of work has changed in the valleys – and a whole community has had to adapt with it. That is quite an achievement...
> 
> So this is a gentle plea to journalists – tell the whole valleys story. In the last decade the Rhondda alone has had a new hospital, three new health centres, four new primary schools, a much improved railway service and a new bypass road. We have tough challenges, especially with tight local spending determined by Westminster, but there is very little appetite for Welsh independence here, for the simple reason that it wouldn’t end the bedroom tax, it wouldn’t pay anyone’s mortgage, it wouldn’t build a new factory, it wouldn’t put wages back ahead of inflation.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...valleys-not-independence-scotland-nationalism


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## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> I meant in terms of Welsh identity being expressed through art and culture.
> 
> When I was growing up, there was almost an embarrassment about being Welsh.



This, the Welsh language is only one aspect of welsh identity.


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## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> De-industrialisation is way behind us.



Oh come on I'm from the Valleys  there are still massive problems caused by deindustrialisation. We're still one of the very poorest regions in the EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-15295224


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## 8ball (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> I meant in terms of Welsh identity being expressed through art and culture.
> 
> When I was growing up, there was almost an embarrassment about being Welsh.


 
Agree there - definite increase in confidence compared to a few decades back.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

Belushi said:


> This, the Welsh language is only one aspect of welsh identity.


I've booked three Welsh speaking bands in my Brixton club. That would have been just about unthinkable/impossible 20 years ago.


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Of come on I'm from the Valleys  there are still massive problems caused by deindustrialisation. We're still one of the very poorest regions in the EU.


More reason to look forward and take control over our own destiny, given the paucity of support from Westminster.


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## 8ball (Sep 18, 2014)

ddraig said:


> anything to back this up please?


 
Fuck's sake - we only discussing it on here a few months back.


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> I've booked three Welsh speaking bands in my Brixton club. That would have been just about unthinkable/impossible 20 years ago.


who were they?

the Earth are playing London soon btw
E2a With support from Baby Queens


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

8ball said:


> Fuck's sake - we only discussing it on here a few months back.


oh sorry! it'll be easier for you to evidence then surely


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## 8ball (Sep 18, 2014)

ddraig said:


> oh sorry! it'll be easier for you to evidence then surely


 
Yes, very easy, though you'd forget in 20 seconds you goldfish fuckwit.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> De-industrialisation is way behind us.


Hmmm. When did Llanwern close? 10 years ago? The kinds of thing I see Newport trying to do to replace the jobs lost by the closing of Llanwern and other heavy industry like the aluminium mill in Rogerstone my dad worked at don't inspire me with massive confidence. These were well-paid skilled jobs.


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

8ball said:


> Yes, very easy, though you'd forget in 20 seconds you goldfish fuckwit.


Why the abuse?


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. When did Llanwern close? 10 years ago? The kinds of thing I see Newport trying to do to replace the jobs lost by the closing of Llanwern and other heavy industry like the aluminium mill in Rogerstone my dad worked at don't inspire me with massive confidence. These were well-paid skilled jobs.


Not sure what this has to do with the issue. Who do you think is to blame for the mill closing?


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> Not sure what this has to do with the issue. Who do you think is to blame for the mill closing?


I'm suggesting that deindustrialisation isn't so far behind us. It's on-going.


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## 8ball (Sep 18, 2014)

ddraig said:


> Why the abuse?


 
Exasperation (maybe over-spilling a bit from other matters in which case sorry).

Remember the thread on the Welsh language protest recently?  The best figures in recent times were the 2011 Census - nothing since shows a turnaround, though the Welsh Assembly has been prodded into taking some action (which obviously takes time).

http://cymdeithas.org/census

edit: Should add to that that there was a decent number of school-age children among the Welsh-speaking kids when they analysed the data (higher than among pensioners or working age adults), though concerns over whether they would continue with it when out of school - I can supply links but just Googling 'number Welsh speakers' made it pop right up when I did it.


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## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

diolch


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## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm suggesting that deindustrialisation isn't so far behind us. It's on-going.


And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?


No, I don't. I was responding to your comment that 'de-industrialisation is way behind us'. It isn't.


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## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Culturally, I think South Wales has more in common with Southwest England than it has with North Wales.



If you search this forum using my username and the term "West Brit" you'll find loads of Irish republicans flinging that term at me. Because I think the "struggle" was a pointless waste of life carried out by thugs. I'd argue that Ireland hasn't been demonstrably improved by independence and in many ways would have benefited by staying in the Union. The Catholic church's staggering power and it's abuse of said power might not have happened for example. By arguing this position they accuse me of not being Irish but "West British". 

In short just because you identify with your neighbour doesn't mean you need to share government.


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## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?



Aren't you in Brixton?


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## Tankus (Sep 18, 2014)

No ..happy to be Welsh and British

As its topical its come up in quite a few conversations ...

General consensus is that we would be exchanging one bunch of tossers in Westminster for another bunch of tossers in the assembly and wind up paying even more for even less .

Highly unlikely we could afford our current benefit system on our own ...

This thread is going to end in the " how welsh are you" meme
With welsh conversations going on.... in an english spoken forum .


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

8den said:


> If you search this forum using my username and the term "West Brit" you'll find loads of Irish republicans flinging that term at me. Because I think the "struggle" was a pointless waste of life carried out by thugs. I'd argue that Ireland hasn't been demonstrably improved by independence and in many ways would have benefited by staying in the Union. The Catholic church's staggering power and it's abuse of said power might not have happened for example. By arguing this position they accuse me of not being Irish but "West British".
> 
> In short just because you identify with your neighbour doesn't mean you need to share government.


I'm guessing people like me might be the new West Brits.  I've always thought of myself as Welsh and British. Since moving away from Wales, I probably think of myself more as British than anything.


----------



## Plumdaff (Sep 18, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Again, it would be viable; but we would in all likelihood be a poorer country than we are now. We're a small economy GDP is lower than the rest of the UK and most of Western Europe and sadly we don't have the strengths of the Scottish economy and aren't a net contributor to the UK as the Scots are.


 
I'd rather be part of a small poorer nation which shared what it has than a rich nation that doesn't. I think the Welsh economy suffers from being overlooked by Westminster and the London economic behemoth - in a wider UK dominated by finance there isn't much desire centrally to develop the Welsh economy - by contrast, Edinburgh is a centre of finance. For example, I think Wales could make huge strides in renewable technology and clearly has the resources - but there's not much will from a UK Coalition government to make that happen, especially when fracking, something the Welsh population is overwhelmingly against, is flavour of the month. There's also other industries such as film, digital effects etc. I think have real potential. I also know, because I work there, that the Welsh government has some genuinely radical ideas regarding education and health which don't require being richer but do get undermined by a shallow focus on micromanagement and league table politics coming out of England.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

8den said:


> Aren't you in Brixton?


I am indeed, but that doesn't stop me being Welsh and/or fighting for what I feel is the country's best interests.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm guessing people like me might be the new West Brits.  I've always thought of myself as Welsh and British. Since moving away from Wales, I probably think of myself more as British than anything.


And that certainly shows in your posts. The longer I've been away, the more I realise that my politics and beliefs are far more aligned with some of the values I feel come from my home country, rather than those of the south of England.


----------



## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> I am indeed, but that doesn't stop me being Welsh and/or fighting for what I feel is the country's best interests.



probably shouldn't use the word "here" though.


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

8den said:


> probably shouldn't use the word "here" though.


I wasn't referring to a physical location.


----------



## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm guessing people like me might be the new West Brits.  I've always thought of myself as Welsh and British. Since moving away from Wales, I probably think of myself more as British than anything.



No I'm not a west brit. Love my country and it's people (most of them and some of the time respectfully).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> I wasn't referring to a physical location.


Wales is a state of mind.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> And that certainly shows in your posts. The longer I've been away, the more I realise that my politics and beliefs are far more aligned with some of the values I feel come from my home country, rather than those of the south of England.


These things are not important to me. I think of myself as a Londoner more than anything. I engage primarily with where I am.


----------



## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

editor said:


> I wasn't referring to a physical location.



I am kidding dude.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> These things are not important to me. I think of myself as a Londoner more than anything. I engage primarily with where I am.


and yet here you are putting everyone straight and saying why Wales shouldn't be independent
if it's not important to you why bother?


----------



## editor (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> These things are not important to me


Then feel free to leave the conversation.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

ddraig said:


> and yet here you are putting everyone straight and saying why Wales shouldn't be independent
> if it's not important to you why bother?


I said that my own personal sense of national identity isn't important to me. I haven't been saying why Wales shouldn't be independent. I've been saying what I don't like about the arguments put forward.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I said that my own personal sense of national identity isn't important to me. I haven't been saying why Wales shouldn't be independent. I've been saying what I don't like about the arguments put forward.


don't be ridiculing people whose sense of national identity is important to them then
we don't owe you an explanation


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 18, 2014)

ddraig said:


> don't be ridiculing people whose sense of national identity is important to them then
> we don't owe you an explanation


Where have I ridiculed anyone?


----------



## Belushi (Sep 18, 2014)

Plumdaff said:


> I'd rather be part of a small poorer nation which shared what it has than a rich nation that doesn't.



That's fair enough :thumbs :

Win the economic argument and you win independence, no question.  I think Scotland will narrowly vote no today but it will be the economic argument that will win it for yes, which really says something about the UK.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2014)

Tankus said:


> This thread is going to end in the " how welsh are you" meme


 

I tend to think of myself as British before Welsh (when I'm feeling willing to shamefacedly admit to involuntary membership of the human race at all), which is something of a minority approach to things.

It's not rational - it's all tied up with where my family are from (all over the place but drawn to a fading empire at the close of the last big War), and maybe a little with my experience of being an outsider.  Makes me feel rather ambivalent about the Scottish thing going on right now.

I haven't the foggiest clue about the economics and how Welsh independence would pan out - I do know that opinions seem to follow a left-right divide when I speak to people from home.  As far as I am aware the analysis of the economics is a bit sparse.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Sep 18, 2014)

Given that the UK's current level of economic sovereignty is fairly marginal (to say the least) the idea that Scotland or Wales could bring about substantial economic change as independent nations is a bit weird, IMO.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Where have I ridiculed anyone?


post 43


----------



## 8ball (Sep 18, 2014)

ddraig said:


> post 43


 
I don't think that's really specifically ridiculing anyone.  Getting a pre-emptive strike in on a couple of strawmen, perhaps...


----------



## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

i feel it is, the start of it and the attitude at least


----------



## 8den (Sep 18, 2014)

All I want is the UK to try and figure out what it's called once Scotland/NI/Wales leave.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 18, 2014)

englund


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 18, 2014)

I'd vote for the maximum increase in Devo that'd be available, not for independence though.

Still why should I have a vote at all anyway? I only moved here at the very end of 2008. Should Welsh born/descended residents in England, Scotland,. elsewhere, also have a vote, if even a Yorkshire-descended, previously long-term London-resident,  incomer to Swansea like me gets one? 

<wants return of old pink handbag icon  >


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 19, 2014)

William of Walworth said:


> Should Welsh born/descended residents in England, Scotland,. elsewhere, also have a vote,  >


No. Expats like me should not have any vote on the future of Wales. That should solely be in the hands of those who live there.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 19, 2014)

I was slightly trolling on that one ....


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm not Welsh, but most of my family moved there.  I stayed in England, but I can see why they went. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29119302

Probably to get away from me!


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 24, 2014)

'Record low' back Welsh independence - BBC/ICM poll



> Support for Welsh independence has fallen to its lowest recorded level in the wake of the Scottish referendum, according to a poll for BBC Wales.
> 
> The survey, carried out days after Scotland voted "No", found 3% wanted to Wales to be independent.
> 
> ...





> He said most evidence suggests they are taking more support from the Conservatives than anywhere else, which could be of importance in Tory-held marginal seats like the Vale of Glamorgan and Aberconwy


----------



## Gavin Bl (Sep 24, 2014)

aha, beat me to it.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 24, 2014)

That poll's  a shocker ... I always knew Welsh-independence support was low, but that's vanishing-point low ...


----------



## Tankus (Sep 24, 2014)

That's 'cause they are all in Englund and on here ..looking at  75's poll results..

Think the Scottish ref drove home the realities and the issues to even many of the "_just how welsh are you_" crowd , too !


----------



## Plumdaff (Sep 24, 2014)

William of Walworth said:


> That poll's  a shocker ... I always knew Welsh-independence support was low, but that's vanishing-point low ...


I'm not. Support was already low and it was taken right after the Scottish results. The UKIP support is worse.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 24, 2014)

Plumdaff : Not shocked you mean? I suppose I'm not particularly, either. All I meant was the _extreme low-level_ of support for Welsh independence was a shocker. Agreed, the timing was majorly significant though.


----------



## Tankus (Sep 24, 2014)

Nope ...I live in the vale ....UKIps runs a bit higher .........fracking going to increasingly cost the cons a lot of votes too


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Sep 24, 2014)

editor said:


> And you think the Westminster government have been the people who have always had our best interests at heart here?


Westminster doesn't have the best interests of most of England at heart, let alone Wales, Scotland and NI.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 25, 2014)

http://dailywales.net/2014/09/24/the-truth-about-bbc-wales-daft-3-welsh-independence-poll/


> The claim made by BBC Wales in its coverage of an ICM survey was:
> 
> “Support for Welsh independence has fallen to its lowest recorded level in the wake of the Scottish referendum, according to a poll for BBC Wales.
> 
> ...





> Professor Roger Scully of the Welsh Governance Centre supplied advice on wording for the various poll questions. He expressed surprise at the way BBC Wales presented the data as a negative story about Welsh independence.
> 
> He said:
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 25, 2014)

So the story is the support for independence could possibly be 5‰

Or 1%


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2020)

Slowly slowly moving ahead: 



> For the first time in its history, the Welsh parliament will on Wednesday debate a motion on independence for Wales.
> 
> The debate in the Senedd has been called by nationalist party Plaid Cymru on the back of opinion polls showing increased support for breaking away from the UK over the course of the coronavirus outbreak.
> 
> ...





> The regular Welsh Barometer poll found in June that 62 per cent felt the administration in Cardiff was handling the crisis well, compared to only 34 per cent for the UK government.
> 
> Mr Price said: “Wales has proven itself during the coronavirus crisis by acting independently to protect our citizens from the dysfunctionality and ineptitude of the Westminster government.
> 
> “As we come out of this crisis, we cannot go back to the status quo. The status quo has failed Wales. Under-investment and unfair funding forms the crux of this unequal union of broken promises — delivered by the Tories at Westminster and defended by Labour through their support for the stagnant status-quo.











						Welsh parliament to debate motion on independence for first time in its history
					

Support for break from UK has risen to record high as Cardiff took its own path on dealing with coronavirus




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 15, 2020)

Interestingly, support for independence among Labour voters now runs at about 40%, which sets the stage for a possible shift in Welsh Labour or more likely, I gradual loss of support to Plaid if they play this well.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 15, 2020)

More Nationalists seeking advantage from the C-19 fall-out. Lovely job.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> More Nationalists seeking advantage from the C-19 fall-out. Lovely job.


Ridiculous statement.

It's precisely because of Johnson's calamitous, reckless and deadly mishandling of the coronavirus crisis in England - and the government's policy of putting business ahead of lives - that people in Wales are beginning to realise the potential benefits of being fully in charge of their own affairs in the future.

This crisis has highlighted the immense differences between England's priorities and way of doing things,and those of the rest of the UK, and that is what's driving increasing calls for independence, not some blind flag-flapping nationalism.


----------



## nogojones (Jul 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Ridiculous statement.
> 
> It's precisely because of Johnson's calamitous, reckless and deadly mishandling of the coronavirus crisis in England - and the government's policy of putting business ahead of lives - that people in Wales are beginning to realise the potential benefits of being fully in charge of their own affairs in the future.
> 
> This crisis has highlighted the immense differences between England's priorities and way of doing things,and those of the rest of the UK, and that is what's driving increasing calls for independence, not some blind flag-flapping nationalism.


Though Mark Drayford and Vaughn Gething have handled it equally as shit and in some ways makes Borris and Handcock look enthusiastic and capable


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 15, 2020)

nogojones said:


> Though Mark Drayford and Vaughn Gething have handled it equally as shit and in some ways makes Borris and Handcock look enthusiastic and capable



I'd agree, however in most of the ways they were shit, especially at the start, they've followed Westminster too closely and the times when they've been successful it's precisely when they haven't repeated what's happened over the border (wearing facemasks in shops being the only current, bizarre exception). The stats bear it out, Wales has done better (for now). Nearly everyone I've spoken to has felt safer being here. Welsh Labour often being ineffectual, timid and illogically unionist isn't an argument against independence.


----------



## nogojones (Jul 15, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> I'd agree, however in most of the ways they were shit, especially at the start, they've followed Westminster too closely and the times when they've been successful it's precisely when they haven't repeated what's happened over the border (wearing facemasks in shops being the only current, bizarre exception). The stats bear it out, Wales has done better (for now). Nearly everyone I've spoken to has felt safer being here. Welsh Labour often being ineffectual, timid and illogically unionist isn't an argument against independence.


I'd support independence, but I'd also support throwing Drakeford and Gethin in Barry Docks


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 15, 2020)

nogojones said:


> I'd support independence, but I'd also support throwing Drakeford and Gethin in Barry Docks



I'd sign up for that


----------



## ddraig (Jul 15, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> More Nationalists seeking advantage from the C-19 fall-out. Lovely job.


Get a clue!
Welsh independence is internationalist and getting away from Westminster


----------



## 8ball (Jul 15, 2020)

ddraig said:


> Get a clue!
> Welsh independence is internationalist and getting away from Westminster



So the next step would be escaping the Senedd?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Ridiculous statement.
> 
> It's precisely because of Johnson's calamitous, reckless and deadly mishandling of the coronavirus crisis in England - and the government's policy of putting business ahead of lives - that people in Wales are beginning to realise the potential benefits of being fully in charge of their own affairs in the future.
> 
> This crisis has highlighted the immense differences between England's priorities and way of doing things,and those of the rest of the UK, and that is what's driving increasing calls for independence, not some blind flag-flapping nationalism.


I think that Johnson's very pointed snubbing of the Welsh (and Scottish) Governments probably has quite a bit to do with the increase in support.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 15, 2020)

What's your issue with the Senedd?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 15, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> I'd agree, however in most of the ways they were shit, especially at the start, they've followed Westminster too closely and the times when they've been successful it's precisely when they haven't repeated what's happened over the border (wearing facemasks in shops being the only current, bizarre exception). The stats bear it out, Wales has done better (for now). Nearly everyone I've spoken to has felt safer being here. Welsh Labour often being ineffectual, timid and illogically unionist isn't an argument against independence.


Better than where? Across the Severn Bridge is a big chunk of England that did a lot better than Wales.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 15, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Better than where? Across the Severn Bridge is a big chunk of England that did a lot better than Wales.



Better than England. 

You want to split hairs? Both countries have areas that have done better than others, however, overall as countries, it's resoundingly clear which country's response has been better for its people so far. If you want to judge England solely on local areas that have done well shall we judge Wales on Ceredigion, because nowhere in the UK has done better than that den of nats!  The devolved nations have done better than England on this. I don't celebrate that, I have family near one of the worst affected areas. It has been a massive factor in a fair few people deciding Wales might well not be small, too poor, or too stupid to go it alone though.


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 15, 2020)

To have dealt with COVID better on its own two feet Wales would have needed to borrow extensively as Westminster did, with a Bank of Wales and using either a new Welsh currency or the Euro after rejoining the EU.

I would support it if that’s what the Welsh people want, but good luck with that.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 16, 2020)

Yes, because effective covid response has been entirely linked to wealth rather that politics and society which is why the UK and US have done so well compared to, say, Kerala or Vietnam. 

An independent Wales would have to borrow, just as all nations do. It would borrow on the terms of a fairly standard size European economy. Wales has many problems with its economy very few of which have any solutions in Westminster.   It would not be as rich as the UK. It would be as rich as many other European nations and would have the advantage of not being tied to a union which has kept it as a post-industrial low skill, low wage pool for over a century.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 16, 2020)

Sad but not surprising from labour and other mainstream politicians








						Plaid independence referendum call rejected by Senedd members
					

Plaid Cymru wanted ministers to seek the right for the Welsh Parliament to legislate for the poll.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




*Plaid Cymru's motion was rejected by 43 Senedd members, with nine in favour of it and one abstention. *


----------



## ddraig (Jul 16, 2020)




----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2020)

ddraig said:


> What's your issue with the Senedd?



They are (another) bunch of useless cunts, but I was just wondering where the internationalism thing was going, really.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2020)

ddraig said:


> Sad but not surprising from labour and other mainstream politicians
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's got a long way to go. 



> Plaid Cymu's Rhun ap Iorwerth said Wales could have dealt better with Covid-19 if it was self-governing.
> 
> But Tory Darren Millar said independence would "make us less resilient to global events".
> 
> ...


----------



## ddraig (Jul 16, 2020)

8ball said:


> They are (another) bunch of useless cunts, but I was just wondering where the internationalism thing was going, really.


As useless or more useless and in what way?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2020)

ddraig said:


> As useless or more useless and in what way?



I've had to recalibrate a lot of measures of uselessness recently, so am unsure of exact quantities, but is the gist that you want everything to be mismanaged by _local_ useless cunts?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 16, 2020)

Typical, don't answer then
Not going to enter into a pedantry roundabout with you


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2020)

ddraig said:


>




That's really unfair.  Lots of them are quite tall.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2020)

8ball said:


> I've had to recalibrate a lot of measures of uselessness recently, so am unsure of exact quantities, but is the gist that you want everything to be mismanaged by _local_ useless cunts?


It'll certainly be a lot better than being mismanaged by Boris and his fuckwit Tory posh chums.

Devolution has already brought about substantive differences between England and Welsh political priorities and, in almost every case, I mightily prefer the Welsh take (prescription fees, coronavirus handling, tuition fees etc etc).


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2020)

8ball said:


> That's really unfair.  Lots of them are quite tall.


Stop it, please. Some people want a grown up discussion here.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2020)

editor said:


> It'll certainly be a lot better than being mismanaged by Boris and his fuckwit Tory posh chums.
> 
> Devolution has already brought about substantive differences between England and Welsh political priorities and, in almost every case, I mightily prefer the Welsh take (prescription fees, coronavirus handling, tuition fees etc etc).



Closed hospitals...


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2020)

editor said:


> Stop it, please. Some people want a grown up discussion here.



Did a grown up IM you to confirm that? ;

Aaanyway.  Was born and grew up in Wales.  I know people on both sides with this debate.  Not close enough to it to make a balanced assessment (you won't hear me singing the praises of Westminster), and stories of corruption and incompetence with the Senedd would be something I'd need to properly look up and corroborate (no one's account is really neutral).

It's a thing for the Welsh to decide in the end, but like with Brexit I suspect there is a substantial invisible "no" contingent.

The stuff about the size of the place isn't convincing, though, I'll grant that.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 16, 2020)

8ball said:


> Did a grown up IM you to confirm that? ;
> 
> Aaanyway.  Was born and grew up in Wales.  I know people on both sides with this debate.  Not close enough to it to make a balanced assessment (you won't hear me singing the praises of Westminster), and stories of corruption and incompetence with the Senedd would be something I'd need to properly look up and corroborate (no one's account is really neutral).
> 
> ...


I had to check on the size of the place. 

Apparently, it's the size of Wales


----------



## 8ball (Jul 16, 2020)

existentialist said:


> I had to check on the size of the place.
> 
> Apparently, it's the size of Wales



Not that the IU unit of deforestation is that relevant here.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 16, 2020)

No


----------



## nogojones (Jul 16, 2020)

ddraig said:


> What's your issue with the Senedd?


Because even though large parts of policy are devolved, it happily hangs onto the coat tails of parliment.

Their Covid policy is marginally better in part than the English one, but only by a week and in some ways it's worse - forcing the return of schools before it's safe for example. Compare them to the rest of the world and they're pretty much as useless as the English


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 16, 2020)

There are massive problems with corruption and the lack of scrutiny the Senedd and Welsh councils receive on their largely dreadful record. Welsh Labour have passed up on chances to devolve the media because they are insipid twats. We desperately need good Welsh media coverage, especially in English. It's a tragedy it's taken a fucking pandemic for many people to even notice a lot of what's devolved. For me, it's another argument for independence. We're never going to get fair coverage when we're a small parochial afterthought (it's also an argument for far more localism within England). 

nogojones I'd argue the school's policy is marginally better than England, where they forced going back in early June, and it was chaos because there was no actual policy. There was at least a planned staggered start here and an actual policy. But marginal.


----------



## Tankus (Jul 16, 2020)

> Sep 18, 2014





> Tankus
> 
> No .........happy to be Welsh and British
> As its topical its come up in quite a few conversations ...
> ...



6 years  later  and its still the  same   ..........No


----------



## editor (Jul 17, 2020)

Love it


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 20, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> nogojones I'd argue the school's policy is marginally better than England, where they forced going back in early June, and it was chaos because there was no actual policy. There was at least a planned staggered start here and an actual policy. But marginal.



Sorry but I'm going to have to take issue with this. The return to school in Wales was the bit where I started to think Wales was in a competition with England for incompetence. There was no policy, there was no plan. Sure, the government made announcements. And none of these announcements had been made in conjunction with LEAs or unions. The return was chaos, a logistical nightmare and turned into a farce. A third of pupils at any one time was the 'policy' announced. With no ideas given to how this was achievable. Even the 'third of pupils' bit was a random figure plucked out of the air. It led to massive headaches for senior teaching staff trying to organise transport and timetables for what eventually became extremely limited childcare which was barely taken up. Also, the government initially, randomly, announced schools would go back for an extra week with a vague 'promise' we would get a two week half term in October. This had to be ditched when unions quite rightly went "You what?" Because nothing had been discussed let alone agreed and it would effectively have meant teaching staff working voluntarily in that week (because we are not paid for holidays) with a vague promise of getting it back in October. The whole thing was madness, a completely botched attempt to try and prove we were better than England in getting more kids back for longer. And it blew up spectacularly in the face of the Welsh government.

If anyone is interested, the 'plan' for return in September is almost as bad, only mitigated by having longer to sort it out. This time its 50% of kids in the first fortnight (which 50%?) followed by everyone by September 15th. It sort of sounds like a plan but it isn't. Its random numbers cobbled together with no regard for how things will be worked out.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jul 20, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Sorry but I'm going to have to take issue with this. The return to school in Wales was the bit where I started to think Wales was in a competition with England for incompetence. There was no policy, there was no plan. Sure, the government made announcements. And none of these announcements had been made in conjunction with LEAs or unions. The return was chaos, a logistical nightmare and turned into a farce. A third of pupils at any one time was the 'policy' announced. With no ideas given to how this was achievable. Even the 'third of pupils' bit was a random figure plucked out of the air. It led to massive headaches for senior teaching staff trying to organise transport and timetables for what eventually became extremely limited childcare which was barely taken up. Also, the government initially, randomly, announced schools would go back for an extra week with a vague 'promise' we would get a two week half term in October. This had to be ditched when unions quite rightly went "You what?" Because nothing had been discussed let alone agreed and it would effectively have meant teaching staff working voluntarily in that week (because we are not paid for holidays) with a vague promise of getting it back in October. The whole thing was madness, a completely botched attempt to try and prove we were better than England in getting more kids back for longer. And it blew up spectacularly in the face of the Welsh government.
> 
> If anyone is interested, the 'plan' for return in September is almost as bad, only mitigated by having longer to sort it out. This time its 50% of kids in the first fortnight (which 50%?) followed by everyone by September 15th. It sort of sounds like a plan but it isn't. Its random numbers cobbled together with no regard for how things will be worked out.



It seemed marginally less farcical from outside, but you clearly know more about it than I do.


----------



## nogojones (Jul 20, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> It seemed marginally less farcical from outside, but you clearly know more about it than I do.


At one point they announced they were trying to get teachers to start working during the summer holiday to make up for lost learning time. Never bothered consulting the unions or any teachers. They're just a shower of cunts


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Sorry but I'm going to have to take issue with this. The return to school in Wales was the bit where I started to think Wales was in a competition with England for incompetence. There was no policy, there was no plan. Sure, the government made announcements. And none of these announcements had been made in conjunction with LEAs or unions. The return was chaos, a logistical nightmare and turned into a farce. A third of pupils at any one time was the 'policy' announced. With no ideas given to how this was achievable. Even the 'third of pupils' bit was a random figure plucked out of the air. It led to massive headaches for senior teaching staff trying to organise transport and timetables for what eventually became extremely limited childcare which was barely taken up. Also, the government initially, randomly, announced schools would go back for an extra week with a vague 'promise' we would get a two week half term in October. This had to be ditched when unions quite rightly went "You what?" Because nothing had been discussed let alone agreed and it would effectively have meant teaching staff working voluntarily in that week (because we are not paid for holidays) with a vague promise of getting it back in October. The whole thing was madness, a completely botched attempt to try and prove we were better than England in getting more kids back for longer. And it blew up spectacularly in the face of the Welsh government.
> 
> If anyone is interested, the 'plan' for return in September is almost as bad, only mitigated by having longer to sort it out. This time its 50% of kids in the first fortnight (which 50%?) followed by everyone by September 15th. It sort of sounds like a plan but it isn't. Its random numbers cobbled together with no regard for how things will be worked out.


the worst thing about the plan for september is you're going to be able to see the car crash coming much further in advance without being able to alter the direction of travel


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## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2020)

editor said:


> Love it
> 
> View attachment 222679


yeh that's what independence will be, same auld shit but with some cheery red stickers


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## editor (Jul 20, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh that's what independence will be, same auld shit but with some cheery red stickers


That's still better than the same auld shit with no cheery red stickers.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2020)

editor said:


> That's still better than the same auld shit with no cheery red stickers.


5 years down the line there won't be any red stickers, those remaining up with be a lacklustre pink


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## two sheds (Jul 20, 2020)

With Cornwall having once stretched up as far as Bristol could we make it Independence for Wales and Greater Cornwall please?


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## ddraig (Jul 20, 2020)




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## existentialist (Jul 20, 2020)

We'd have to reinstate the Swansea-Ilfracombe ferry. And maybe loads of others...


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## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2020)

two sheds said:


> With Cornwall having once stretched up as far as Bristol could we make it Independence for Wales and Greater Cornwall please?


my own pet project, for the re-establishment of the realm of magnus maximus, would, i think, take precedence


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## nogojones (Jul 20, 2020)

existentialist said:


> We'd have to reinstate the Swansea-Ilfracombe ferry. And maybe loads of others...











						The water taxi service planned between Cardiff and Bristol
					

Company hopes to introduce the hydrogen powered service later this year, and plans to follow it up with service between Cardiff, Newport and Ilfracombe




					www.walesonline.co.uk


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## platinumsage (Jul 20, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> There are massive problems with corruption and the lack of scrutiny the Senedd and Welsh councils receive on their largely dreadful record. Welsh Labour have passed up on chances to devolve the media because they are insipid twats. We desperately need good Welsh media coverage, especially in English. It's a tragedy it's taken a fucking pandemic for many people to even notice a lot of what's devolved. For me, it's another argument for independence. We're never going to get fair coverage when we're a small parochial afterthought (it's also an argument for far more localism within England).



I’m trying to imagine my English county council given all the powers of nationhood, and the idea fills me with despair. I think these things need to happen gradually like Scotland, so the burgeoning government has time to be judged on its progress, and as politicians come and go a greater sense of responsibility and understanding of the new powers will hopefully develop.


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## two sheds (Jul 20, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> my own pet project, for the re-establishment of the realm of magnus maximus, would, i think, take precedence



Usurper


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## Hyperdark (Jul 30, 2020)

I don't think Wales is capable of going it alone we can't balance the books.
Now we have left the EU this will become more evident as we recieve about £245 million PA more than we pay in, not a massive amount these days, but most of that money goes to less prosperous areas under the EU Regional Policy which seeks to balance prosperity in EU Countries, we are talking the Valleys here and these areas will suffer unless supported and unfortunately England is the only place we can go looking for hand outs post-brexit

Welsh independence makes little sense unless you are driven purely by patriotism


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## wayward bob (Jul 30, 2020)

nogojones said:


> The water taxi service planned between Cardiff and Bristol
> 
> 
> Company hopes to introduce the hydrogen powered service later this year, and plans to follow it up with service between Cardiff, Newport and Ilfracombe
> ...


hydrogen powered?


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## nogojones (Jul 30, 2020)

wayward bob said:


> hydrogen powered?


Roath Park Lake sure looks different these days


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## ddraig (Jul 30, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> I don't think Wales is capable of going it alone we can't balance the books.
> Now we have left the EU this will become more evident as we recieve about £245 million PA more than we pay in, not a massive amount these days, but most of that money goes to less prosperous areas under the EU Regional Policy which seeks to balance prosperity in EU Countries, we are talking the Valleys here and these areas will suffer unless supported and unfortunately England is the only place we can go looking for hand outs post-brexit
> 
> Welsh independence makes little sense unless you are driven purely by patriotism


The maths have been done

Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence 
Also Welsh Independence is not driven purely by patriotism, it's mostly driven by the need to get away from Westminster


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2020)

ddraig said:


> The maths have been done
> 
> Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence
> Also Welsh Independence is not driven purely by patriotism, it's mostly driven by the need to get away from Westminster


Hang on, he's not showing enough patriotism for the IWW?


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## ddraig (Jul 30, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, he's not showing enough patriotism for the IWW?


I mean (I think!) the deferring to a "higher power", and negativity about more local organising (of sorts)
A stretch I'll agree
e2a - it might be nothing at all to do with the IWW anyway, so I'm probably wrong one way or another


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2020)

ddraig said:


> I mean (I think!) the deferring to a "higher power", and negativity about more local organising (of sorts)


I was referring to your line:

Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence  

though. That's not good stuff.


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## ddraig (Jul 30, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I was referring to your line:
> 
> Strange someone with a Sabcat/IWW avatar would be against independence
> 
> though. That's not good stuff.


Apologies then
Please educate me why not and i'll attempt to correct other wobblies I know who are for independence


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2020)

Jesus.


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## Hyperdark (Aug 2, 2020)

Self determination is not served by governments, little difference between a government that contains 60 million or 3 million I am no fan of either, but if starting on the premise of choosing one or the other then from an economic standpoint the case of independance for Wales is clear that it would have negative outcomes

As for the political aspect more Local = good in my view, it is after all a step towards self determination, but as far as our current lot and the whole system in Wales is concerned they are simply a second rate version of England's Bunch.
Wales has for hundreds of years been a awash with local council  corruption and cronyism aided by an equally corrupt police force this continues today


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## ddraig (Aug 2, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> Self determination is not served by governments, little difference between a government that contains 60 million or 3 million I am no fan of either, but if starting on the premise of choosing one or the other then from an economic standpoint the case of independance for Wales is clear that it would have negative outcomes
> 
> As for the political aspect more Local = good in my view, it is after all a step towards self determination, but as far as our current lot and the whole system in Wales is concerned they are simply a second rate version of England's Bunch.
> Wales has for hundreds of years been a awash with local council  corruption and cronyism aided by an equally corrupt police force this continues today


What "negative outcomes"?


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## DexterTCN (Aug 10, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> Self determination is not served by governments, little difference between a government that contains 60 million or 3 million I am no fan of either, but if starting on the premise of choosing one or the other then from an economic standpoint the case of independance for Wales is clear that it would have negative outcomes...


This is not correct, firstly you are ignoring what Scotland has done...do you want me to list the differences between rUK and Scotland?  This has been done with devolved powers, not full fiscal control.  

Secondly...it's not a difference between one govt and another...it's the difference between being in control of your own country and not having tories lord it over you.  Tories are not just another government.

Thirdly...too wee and too poor, eh?


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## Hyperdark (Aug 10, 2020)

Sorry  Dexter I'm not sure I need to recognise what Scotland has done, but tell me anyway what has Scotland done? and how can Wales do the same?
Bearing in mind that economicaly Scotland is still not independent and it is the negative economic side of things I referred to in my post


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## ddraig (Aug 10, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> Sorry  Dexter I'm not sure I need to recognise what Scotland has done, but tell me anyway what has Scotland done? and how can Wales do the same?
> Bearing in mind that economicaly Scotland is still not independent and it is the negative economic side of things I referred to in my post


Again, what "negative outcomes"? thanks


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## DexterTCN (Aug 10, 2020)

Hyperdark said:


> Sorry  Dexter I'm not sure I need to recognise what Scotland has done, but tell me anyway what has Scotland done? and how can Wales do the same?
> Bearing in mind that economicaly Scotland is still not independent and it is the negative economic side of things I referred to in my post



Ok I'll answer... but you talk about negative outcomes as if Wales isn't capable of surviving as a nation.  People in Wales are just as capable as anyone else of looking after their own shit...to suggest otherwise is racist, so don't do that unless you have very convincing data on Wales operating independently economically with all controls of fiscal levers, immigration etc. (which you don't).

Quick question...imagine Wales doesn't have to pay its share of HS2 or Trident...is Wales capable of spending that money better in relation to the people living in Wales?  

Anyway..._financial_ differences in Scotland, off the top of my head...

no bedroom tax
free prescriptions
free education
free travel for the old
free childcare for the young
a fairer income tax (only some taxes are devolved, and in a limited way)
more investment in social housing
additional payments of Carer's Allowance twice a year

What does this cost?  An increase in racism, basically.  It's quite obvious to the majority of Scots that we don't need anyone else holding our purse-strings or claiming to dole out charity, and that's only with devolved powers.

Why isn't Wales like that?  Because Wales has only ever had a unionist party in power.


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## editor (Aug 10, 2020)

DexterTCN said:


> Ok I'll answer... but you talk about negative outcomes as if Wales isn't capable of surviving as a nation.  People in Wales are just as capable as anyone else of looking after their own shit...to suggest otherwise is racist, so don't do that unless you have very convincing data on Wales operating independently economically with all controls of fiscal levers, immigration etc. (which you don't).
> 
> Quick question...imagine Wales doesn't have to pay its share of HS2 or Trident...is Wales capable of spending that money better in relation to the people living in Wales?
> 
> ...


Wales has free prescriptions. 


> If you are registered with a GP in *Wales* you are entitled to *free prescriptions* from a pharmacist in *Wales*.


Old people travel for free


> If you live in *Wales*, over 60s and disabled people can *travel free* on local buses in *Wales* with a Concessionary Bus Pass at any time - there are no time restrictions



Can't be arsed to go through the rest


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## editor (Dec 30, 2020)

Interesting piece here 









						Arguments against Welsh independence are like those in an ‘abusive relationship’ says Michael Sheen
					

The arguments against Welsh independence show that Wales is in an “abusive relationship” according to Michael Sheen. The Welsh Hollywood actor made the comments in an interview on Guardian columnist Owen Jones’ Youtube channel after he was asked what he thought was driving the rise huge in...



					nation.cymru


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## editor (Jan 2, 2021)

Charlotte's making her case: 





> Charlotte Church has sung that “independence is normal” in a YesCymru tune to celebrate the New Year.
> 
> The Welsh singer-songwriter, who has sold over 10 million records worldwide, teamed up with the grassroots pro-independence group to bring a musical twist to the start of 2021.
> 
> ...
















						‘Independence is normal' says Charlotte Church in YesCymru's New Year tune
					

Charlotte Church has sung that “independence is normal” in a YesCymru tune to celebrate the New Year. The Welsh singer-songwriter, who has sold over 10 million records worldwide, teamed up with the grassroots pro-independence group to bring a musical twist to the start of 2021. She said that her...



					nation.cymru


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## Aladdin (Jan 2, 2021)

If I had a vote it would be yes. 
Just as I'd vote for Scottish independence and for a fully united Ireland.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Sugar Kane said:


> If I had a vote it would be yes.
> Just as I'd vote for Scottish independence and for a fully united Ireland.


Ah but an Ireland governed by Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, or one governed in the interests of the people in line with the 1867 proclamation, the 1916 proclamation and the 1921 democratic programme?


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## Aladdin (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Ah but an Ireland governed by Fianna Fail or Fine Gael, or one governed in the interests of the people in line with the 1867 proclamation, the 1916 proclamation and the 1921 democratic programme?



I think a btand new party is needed. FF are useless. FG not much better. Labour is dead sadly. SF are shite. 

So long as the fuckers listen to NPHET and the people and dont listen to the likes of Micheal Mc Dowell and his cronies.


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## MathFabMathonwy (Apr 19, 2021)

A bonfire of the local authorities in Cymru would be a great place to start making some cost saving changes. As would reigning in the idiocy of the Senedd in demanding MOAR and MOAR members.


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## MathFabMathonwy (May 8, 2021)

So no breakthrough for Plaid in the elections on the back of all the noise about Yes Cymru...  I despair.


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## _Russ_ (Dec 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Wales has free prescriptions.
> 
> Old people travel for free
> 
> ...


Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked

Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist


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## ddraig (Dec 13, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
> To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked
> 
> Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist


Any actual evidence to back up your defeatist view?


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## nogojones (Dec 13, 2021)

_Russ_ said:


> Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
> To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked
> 
> Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist


He's not doing it because he's scared of loosing funding from Whitehall. He's doing it because he cares more about Weatherspoons profits than he does peoples lives. His response all through this pandemic has been one of the worst in Europe with infection and death figures to match and was only marginally better than Johnson's, which is a fucking low bar.

He, like most of Welsh Labour are a fucking blight.


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## ddraig (Dec 16, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Any actual evidence to back up your defeatist view?


_Russ_  ?
Not anther dump and run comment with no substance surely?


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## 8ball (Dec 16, 2021)

ddraig said:


> _Russ_  ?
> Not anther dump and run comment with no substance surely?



He's possibly thinking of Wales' fiscal deficit.
To be fair, it's a little smaller than that of Northern Ireland.


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## ska invita (Aug 4, 2022)

Found this interesting - not just about welsh independence, but basically is

talk based on this book


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## Sasaferrato (Aug 4, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Sorry for the thread resurrection, I don't usually wander in this section, but we can only afford these things because of external funding. Independence would kill all that in an instant.
> To illustrate our financial dependence on Whitehall you only have to look at how Drakeford is not locking down now as he did last time, its nothing to do with being in a better position than last winter and he really would do it again but there isnt whitehall funding for a furlough scheme this time around so he is fucked
> 
> Don't read this a Pro-Whitehall rant, Im just a realist


The same applies in Scotland.


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