# How strictly can employment notice periods be enforced?



## EastEnder (Oct 23, 2008)

If someone resigns and refuses to work out their whole notice period, what are the likely outcomes? Would an employer really go to the trouble of suing them?

And are there any implications for their next job? Say someone had a 3 month notice period, but only offered to work 1 month of it before moving on, would the next employer accept someone who'd only worked a 3rd of their contractual notice period, or would it create lots of problems?


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## bluestreak (Oct 23, 2008)

IME it's a formality that is rarely enforced.  You can't make someone work, after all.


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## cliche guevara (Oct 23, 2008)

Bear in mind that it might jeopradise your reference though.


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## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

It depends. The more senior they are, the more likely it is that the employer might sue for breach of contract i.e. the greater the loss, the more likely the employer would weigh up the initial cost of pursuing it and proceed.

And there might be other complications in terms of post termination restrictions for example, especially if the employee is going to work for a competitor - I've had cases where the ex-employer has sued not only the employee but also the new employer. So it depends on the type of job the employee was doing and the terms of the employment contract.

That's relatively rare though ... more often than not the employer doesn't pursue it. Although it will be reflected in the reference, which the new employer may or may not be bothered about depending on whether they've put pressure on the employee to join them sooner by not working their notice period.

And for the employee, there is a risk that the employer could with-hold final payments against their loss, which the employee would then need to try and claim back via the Employment Tribunal.

So it's generally a good idea for the employee to negotiate a leaving date/handover, but yeah it doesn't always happen and it doesn't always matter.


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## rennie (Oct 23, 2008)

Yeah in some industries, if you join a competitor you have to go on gardening leave for anything from 3 to 6 months and that's enforced.


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## lights.out.london (Oct 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> It depends. The more senior they are, the more likely it is that the employer might sue for breach of contract i.e. the greater the loss, the more likely the employer would weigh up the initial cost of pursuing it and proceed.
> 
> And there might be other complications in terms of post termination restrictions for example, especially if the employee is going to work for a competitor - I've had cases where the ex-employer has sued not only the employee but also the new employer. So it depends on the type of job the employee was doing and the terms of the employment contract.
> 
> ...



Not a lot to add to that.

Get advice (a good employment lawyer or the CAB or union rep) if you have any doubts. 

As Cesare says - restrictive covenants and senior roles tend to be the ones where notice and gardening leave are strictly enforced.


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## EastEnder (Oct 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> And there might be other complications in terms of post termination restrictions for example, especially if the employee is going to work for a competitor - I've had cases where the ex-employer has sued not only the employee but also the new employer. So it depends on the type of job the employee was doing and the terms of the employment contract.


That's the sort of thing that I was worried about - I suspected as much, but was holding out a tenuous hope that maybe the only recourse would be between previous employer and employee, not future employer as well...


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## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

EastEnder said:


> That's the sort of thing that I was worried about - I suspected as much, but was holding out a tenuous hope that maybe the only recourse would be between previous employer and employee, not future employer as well...



It's best to get some advice if you're in any doubt (although most CABs won't be able to advise at that kind of level) - an employment lawyer/specialist would be your best bet. I'd be happy to give it a quick FOC opinion if you want?


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## EastEnder (Oct 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> It's best to get some advice if you're in any doubt (although most CABs won't be able to advise at that kind of level) - an employment lawyer/specialist would be your best bet. I'd be happy to give it a quick FOC opinion if you want?


Cheers for the offer, might get back to you if I ever move beyond the procrastination phase...

I'm not actively looking to leave my current place, just generally musing at the mo - have tentatively considered my options and remembered that, for the first time in my career, I'm shackled to a 3 month notice period. Which is a bit of a bugger, I'm guessing that's gonna make life a lot harder if I do decide to look elsewhere - how many prospective employers are gonna be happy to wait 3 months for someone?


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## mauvais (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm on three months but I believe, were I to resign, we'd negotiate about half that. Most companies are the same IME.

Also, most employers I spoke to before this job (I'm not leaving!) were surprised that my notice was only a month, so it's not a big deal.


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 23, 2008)

Negotiate if you want a shorter notice period. Employment contracts are not written in stone and the attitude (not you neccessarily ) that you are the schoolkid and the boss is the headmaster and therefore his bitch is not the reality.


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## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

EastEnder said:


> Cheers for the offer, might get back to you if I ever move beyond the procrastination phase...
> 
> I'm not actively looking to leave my current place, just generally musing at the mo - have tentatively considered my options and remembered that, for the first time in my career, I'm shackled to a 3 month notice period. Which is a bit of a bugger, I'm guessing that's gonna make life a lot harder if I do decide to look elsewhere - how many prospective employers are gonna be happy to wait 3 months for someone?



No worries, the offer stands even if it's just for a steer for some indefinable point in the future 

Notice periods are funny things. Long ones can *really* work in your favour if facing redundancy, re-organisation or a new boss where your face doesn't fit. But where you voluntarily want to leave ... can be tricky. Pros and cons, pros and cons. Plus the other terms that you sign up to. On the bright side, if a new employer really really wants you, a 3 month notice period ain't that bad and they will wait. 

Also, 3 months isn't unusual in a supervisory/managerial/specialist level. A decent employer takes account of that lead time when recruiting.


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## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> Negotiate if you want a shorter notice period. Employment contracts are not written in stone and the attitude (not you neccessarily ) that you are the schoolkid and the boss is the headmaster and therefore his bitch is not the reality.



They don't call it a master/servant relationship for nothing. That *is* the reality. The trick is to know your way about, suss out the potential downfalls, and work it to your advantage. As with most things I guess.


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 23, 2008)

cesare said:


> They don't call it a master/servant relationship for nothing. That *is* the reality. The trick is to know your way about, suss out the potential downfalls, and work it to your advantage. As with most things I guess.



Do they call it that? Sorry, not being argumentative but for example my mate, who is quite senior but a bit wet, was told to move desks by his nutty boss. I had to coach him for hours about not having to do what she said just becuase she said it. And he didn't, after he was reasonable and told her why.


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## cesare (Oct 23, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> Do they call it that? Sorry, not being argumentative but for example my mate, who is quite senior but a bit wet, was told to move desks by his nutty boss. I had to coach him for hours about not having to do what she said just becuase she said it. And he didn't, after he was reasonable and told her why.



Yeah, it's called that. I'm not commenting on the rights or wrongs of it, but yep, that's still the fundamental basis and terminology used.

I don't think you're being argumentative, what you said just reinforces my point about negotiating - preferably from a standpoint of awareness.


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## rennie (Oct 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> They don't call it a master/servant relationship for nothing. That *is* the reality. The trick is to know your way about, suss out the potential downfalls, and work it to your advantage. As with most things I guess.



Exactly. If you're applying of a senior job with a competitor or in the same industry, I think it's expected that you will have a 3+ months notice period.


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## EastEnder (Oct 24, 2008)

rennie said:


> Exactly. If you're applying of a senior job with a competitor or in the same industry, I think it's expected that you will have a 3+ months notice period.


I've managed to end up in the worst position possible - I stupidly agreed to my role being made a bit more "senior", simply cos the boss made it sound like a good idea (I joined a tiny firm as the only code monkey, the firm grew a little bit, we needed more code monkeys, I was the de facto "head" code monkey...). The only real difference between then and now is that I've got a poncy (but essentially meaningless) job title and a more onerous contract (without any real benefits, like more money...). So if I were to look for work elsewhere, I wouldn't really be looking at jobs comparable to what I'm purported to do at the moment, I'd just be looking for another code monkey role.

I think the moral of the story is never sign a new contract just cos your boss makes out it's somehow a "good thing"...


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## 5t3IIa (Oct 24, 2008)

EastEnder said:


> I've managed to end up in the worst position possible - I stupidly agreed to my role being made a bit more "senior", simply cos the boss made it sound like a good idea (I joined a tiny firm as the only code monkey, the firm grew a little bit, we needed more code monkeys, I was the de facto "head" code monkey...). The only real difference between then and now is that I've got a poncy (but essentially meaningless) job title and a more onerous contract (without any real benefits, like more money...). So if I were to look for work elsewhere, I wouldn't really be looking at jobs comparable to what I'm purported to do at the moment, I'd just be looking for another code monkey role.
> 
> I think the moral of the story is never sign a new contract just cos your boss makes out it's somehow a "good thing"...



and always ask for more money


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## EastEnder (Oct 24, 2008)

5t3IIa said:


> and always ask for more money


Oh that's coming, when the company really "takes off", I'll be quids in then, most definitely, the boss said so, any day now, any... day... now...


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## rennie (Oct 24, 2008)

EastEnder said:


> I've managed to end up in the worst position possible - I stupidly agreed to my role being made a bit more "senior", simply cos the boss made it sound like a good idea (I joined a tiny firm as the only code monkey, the firm grew a little bit, we needed more code monkeys, I was the de facto "head" code monkey...). The only real difference between then and now is that I've got a poncy (but essentially meaningless) job title and a more onerous contract (without any real benefits, like more money...). So if I were to look for work elsewhere, I wouldn't really be looking at jobs comparable to what I'm purported to do at the moment, I'd just be looking for another code monkey role.
> 
> I think the moral of the story is never sign a new contract just cos your boss makes out it's somehow a "good thing"...



Thing is, your role says senior so you could argue at a job interview that you are indeed senior and that this is reflected in your *slightly inflated* job opportunities.


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## sojourner (Oct 24, 2008)

EastEnder said:


> Oh that's coming, when the company really "takes off", I'll be quids in then, most definitely, the boss said so, any day now, any... day... now...



heh  heard that one before.  I got conned into becoming a director on that basis   So not only do I have an 8 week notice period, I also have legal obligations 

if you're a member of the Chamber of Commerce, ring them and ask - our one runs a brilliant free helpline for employment law and H&S


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## Iam (Oct 24, 2008)

EastEnder said:


> Oh that's coming, when the company really "takes off", I'll be quids in then, most definitely, the boss said so, any day now, any... day... now...



Work to rule time, then. Sorry, I'm on a break, that sort of thing...


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