# Negating the effectiveness of water cannon.



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

If the police get water cannon to attack protesters how do people negate their effectiveness? It seems a real fear that the water stream may damage the eyes, nose and mouth. So goggles? Getting wet at this time of year could well pose serious health risks for many people too. 

I would think though that the water cannon trucks are pretty cumbersome. Plus they hold a finite amount of water. 

Any one got any thoughts?


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## Badgers (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Any one got any thoughts?



Carry loads of bubblebath?


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## Bakunin (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Any one got any thoughts?


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

I don't think the times demand RPG's somehow! But these bulky beats do have weak points. The tyres obviously. Plus they need to see where they are going so paint thrown on the windscreen would be effective. Have we got any people from the north of Ireland here who might know?


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## DotCommunist (Dec 14, 2010)

ultra lightwieght cagouls- they wiegh sweet fuck all and fold down into little carry bags. They won't negate the pressure but the soaking-in-cold-weather they would negate.


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## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2010)

They have one obvious weakness - they can only aim at one point at any one time.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> ultra lightwieght cagouls- they wiegh sweet fuck all and fold down into little carry bags. They won't negate the pressure but the soaking-in-cold-weather they would negate.


 
Sounds like good advice.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They have one obvious weakness - they can only aim at one point at any one time.


 
People could clamber up and fuck about with the nozzle? Is nozzle the right term?


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## Bakunin (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I don't think the times demand RPG's somehow!


 
Did you know that the Russian Mafia use them for drive-by shootings?


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## Garek (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> People could clamber up and fuck about with the nozzle? Is nozzle the right term?


 
That's what I was thinking. Get on top and try and break whatever is up there. Might be tricky to get up there, and you'd probably get battered when you got down.


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## Athos (Dec 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They have one obvious weakness - they can only aim at one point at any one time.



Not true, I'm afraid.  The new generation is capable of creating a carpet of water that is so fine that it is almost impossible to breath underneath it.  It's great for OB, because it's effective without appearing as brutal as the traditional cannon type.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

"Water cannon could soon be used to quell serious civil disturbances on British streets after a successful display of their effectiveness to senior police officers.

A demonstration was held at a training centre outside Belfast in response to requests from police forces. The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) is the only force equipped with the vehicles, which cost £750,000 each and deliver powerful jets of water at 5C.

Three years ago the force bought six for use in riots as alternatives to plastic bullets. As many as 17 people, demonstrators and bystanders, were killed during the Troubles by plastic bullets striking crowds or ricocheting in narrow streets.

Water cannon are more commonly used on the continent. Last week French riot police turned hoses on demonstrators in Paris when youths objecting to new job contracts pelted lines of police with stones and bottles. The rioters were quickly dispersed.
The display, billed as the UK's first water cannon conference, was held at Steeple, County Antrim, at the PSNI's public order training centre. Officers from South Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Fife, Cambridgeshire, Avon and Somerset, Northumbria and the Irish republic's police forces attended.

The Metropolitan police was given a private demonstration last year. Officials from the police inspectorate, Northern Ireland Policing Board and Independent Police Complaints Commission also came to assess the vehicles' potential.

The conference was chaired by the PSNI's assistant chief constable, Duncan McCausland, one of the few officers who has commanded the deployment of water cannon. "Last year they were used effectively during serious public disorder," Mr McCausland told the Guardian. "They provided us with additional tactical options when confronting disturbances around the Whiterock [Orange Order] parade and the Ardoyne.

"We had to deal with blast bombs and gunfire. They gave us a proportionate and appropriate, graduated response. They can save lives and are a means of de-escalating public order situations. They can be used at high pressure (15 bar) or to create an intense haze of water - which makes it difficult to breath and disrupts sit-down protests."

The vehicles, which carry 9,000 litres (1,980 gallons) of water, are deployed in pairs. "Their presence alone will persuade many people they don't want to become involved in anything other than peaceful protests," said Mr McCausland. "Obviously we would prefer not to have to use them." He said British officers were considering buying them but may wait until police reorganisation gives regional forces greater combined purchasing power.

The Association of Chief Police Officers yesterday confirmed it was investigating whether to recommend their use in Britain. Its study is led by Nigel Yeo, the assistant chief constable of Sussex. "The PSNI's experience suggests they have been used successfully and may therefore be of use in England and Wales," an Acpo spokeswoman said. "They are obviously less dangerous than plastic bullets. We are not in a position to recommend them yet."

Nicholas Long, an IPCC commissioner at the demonstration, said: "In principle they do offer opportunities for a less lethal option in an otherwise dangerous environment." He said the vehicle was "an impressive piece of kit with space-age consoles".

At the start of the Troubles in the early 1960s, police used converted Austin fire tenders as water cannon. A wire cage protected the driver and operators from missiles. Armoured personnel carriers were later modified as water cannon, but the vehicles were considered cumbersome and ineffective.

The Belgian Gendarmerie lent the RUC two, technologically improved water cannon in 1999. They were later used in the Drumcree protests.

The Patten report on policing in Northern Ireland recommended: "The police should be equipped with a broader range of public order equipment ... so that a commander has a number of options which might reduce reliance on plastic baton rounds."

http://www.policeoracle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1646&PN=1


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## Spion (Dec 14, 2010)

it's an infantry vs tanks question. A vehicle with immense firepower vs individuals with the ability to attack it from its weak sides (sides, rear, top). IE, don't try and take it on frontally but get round its flanks and onto it 

Probably tho, the water cannon vehicle's limited capacity is probably its greatest weakness

Anyway, the kids on these protests seem pretty good at coming up with solutions, and I'm sure they would if these things were deployed


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## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2010)

Athos said:


> Not true, I'm afraid.  The new generation is capable of creating a carpet of water that is so fine that it is almost impossible to breath underneath it.  It's great for OB, because it's effective without appearing as brutal as the traditional cannon type.


 
Ta. Actually, i was just thinking about if i was right and recalled the French world cup where they used one that sort of acted as a sweep across the whole square it was used on.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Footage of water cannon use at G8 in 2007.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

!

Use of WC in the north of Ireland.


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## Bakunin (Dec 14, 2010)

On a slightly more sensible note (RPG's having been ruled out) might I suggest, as has already been suggested, blinding the things with paint bombs aimed at the windscreens? The tyres will almost certainly be the run-flat type and the armoured body is, obviously, impervious to anything short of an RPG. I'd also suggest, seeing as these things will almost certainly have windscreen wipers, mixing the paint with PVA glue, perhaps, in order to make it even harder to get the stuff off the windscreens and thus further deny the plod a clear view.


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## zenie (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Footage of water cannon use at G8 in 2007.


 
That one had tear gas in it too :\

I would imagine if things get really hairy and they roll this out, they'll have police lines protecting the tank from attack, and will implement thnigs like snatch squads.


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## past caring (Dec 14, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> Did you know that the Russian Mafia use them for drive-by shootings?


 
I have got a Russian fella at my work.


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## Athos (Dec 14, 2010)

To my mind, the real threat of water being used isn't the physical aspect, but the psychological one; being freezing cold and soaking wet is incredibly demoralizing.  Perhaps one way to counter that would be some way to offer warm dry clothing, and soup etc to anyone caught in the wet?


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## Bakunin (Dec 14, 2010)

past caring said:


> I have got a Russian fella at my work.


 
Well, if you see him delivering a panic-stricken stare out of the window, I suggest that you duck.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Use of the above would win, but over the top?

is there a weakness we can exploit?


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/07/article-1327469-0BF3A476000005DC-69_634x443.jpg

This one was covered in tar and set alight? Interesting.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> On a slightly more sensible note (RPG's having been ruled out) might I suggest, as has already been suggested, blinding the things with paint bombs aimed at the windscreens? The tyres will almost certainly be the run-flat type and the armoured body is, obviously, impervious to anything short of an RPG. I'd also suggest, seeing as these things will almost certainly have windscreen wipers, m*ixing the paint with PVA glue, perhaps, in order to make it even harder to get the stuff off the windscreens and thus further deny the plod a clear view*.


 
This is a very good suggestion.


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## rekil (Dec 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They have one obvious weakness - they can only aim at one point at any one time.


 
The ones borrowed from NI for mayday 04 in Dublin had two nozzles. Except for one bloke who got blasted off a big wall, all the injuries were from batons. Ludicrous day. 50-60% of the country's gardai were there for a teeny demo.


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## gawkrodger (Dec 14, 2010)

i'd imagine they're fairly cumbersome beasts too


Interesting statement in that bluirb from the coppers website re: sit down protests.


If they do go ahead with it, I'm sure they won't become operational in England until the summer months


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## Shippou-Sensei (Dec 14, 2010)

be ultra GAR


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## Threshers_Flail (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/07/article-1327469-0BF3A476000005DC-69_634x443.jpg
> 
> This one was covered in tar and set alight? Interesting.


 
Is anyone going to be up for doing this? Could get done with attempted murder if police get flamed. Also, if used they'll be well protected by a line of TSG, how are you going to get close enough? I think only realistic solution is paint bomb on the windscreen.


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## Threshers_Flail (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> This is a very good suggestion.


 
Seconded.


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## rekil (Dec 14, 2010)

Small children in vantage points plus paint loaded water pistol things.


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## past caring (Dec 14, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> Well, if you see him delivering a panic-stricken stare out of the window, I suggest that you duck.



I was thinking about asking whether he knows anyone can get us some RPGs.

But on a more sensible note, they do need to operate with plod in close proximity to prevent them being attacked from the flanks. Nothing is impervious if isolated in a crowd - force the cap of the petrol tank and pour some sugar in, paint on the windows, there must be options not mentioned yet.

But the fact that they need to be operated near ob in support might be the real weakness for a determined crowd that had numbers - leave them with no option but to turn the cannon on ob too if they want to use it.


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## 1%er (Dec 14, 2010)

what about  stuff that will make foam when mixed with water? 

Like refills for foam fire extinguisher. they come on two bags one with white powder and one with brown, throw the white powder around on the floor before it kicks off and when they start the water cannon throw the brown powder everywhere, I'm surprised there isn't a video of this on youtube.

One refill will make more than enough foam to fill an average size bathroom, so if a couple of hundred of the thousands demonstrating take some along you'll all have a foam bath, if the foam is high enough they will have to stop the water as they will not be able to see through the foam.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 14, 2010)

I would imagine that there would be a line of foot soldiers flanking it so you can only face the thing head on and you won't get close enough to cover it in paint before it blows you away.

Despite the posturing by May, we ain't getting them in London. Things are nowhere near that stage yet.


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## lopsidedbunny (Dec 14, 2010)

I face them abroad once, they don't last long and I heard they take an age to refill. At this time of year you are going to get pretty cold if you are soaked. So bring a rain mac.


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## Threshers_Flail (Dec 14, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Despite the posturing by May, we ain't getting them in London. Things are nowhere near that stage yet.


 
I'd agree with that. 

Worryingly in the grauniad it says that future protests may be banned? (Last line of article).  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/14/student-fees-protest-kettling-human-rights


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## past caring (Dec 14, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I would imagine that there would be a line of foot soldiers flanking it so you can only face the thing head on and you won't get close enough to cover it in paint before it blows you away.



That only works if;

a) the ob get to choose the terrain, and

b) they deploy the water cannon from the off.

The problem with deploying from the off is that it immediately ups the ante, so can hardly be claimed as a "calming" measure. And if the cannon are brought up from the rear, all it needs is for the crowd to keep their nerve and stay toe-to-toe with ob for deployment to be impossible without also turning the cannon on the cops.



> Despite the posturing by May, we ain't getting them in London. Things are nowhere near that stage yet.



But this I agree with. For the moment.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Threshers_Flail said:


> I'd agree with that.
> 
> Worryingly in the grauniad it says that future protests may be banned? (Last line of article).
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/dec/14/student-fees-protest-kettling-human-rights


 
How do they ban a demo organised by no particular person?


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## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2010)

May have to dig the catapults out again, then make them chase us up small roads where they can't turn then block them in.


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## 1%er (Dec 14, 2010)

Get some of the students to put their skills to use

Some homemade recipes for fog juice are:

   1. 15%-35% food grade glycerine to 1 quart distilled water

   2. 125 ml glycerine to 1 liter distilled water
      (glycerine creates a 'haze' at concentrations of 15% or less and more of a fog or smoke at concentrations higher than 15%)

   3. Unscented mineral oil (baby oil), with or without water
      (I can't vouche for the safety of using mineral oil for fog juice)

   4. 10% distilled water: 90% propylene glycol (dense fog)
      40% distilled water: 60% propylene glycol (quick dissipating)
      60% water: 40% propylene glycol (very quick dissipation)

   5. 30% distilled water: 35% dipropylene glycol: 35% triethylene glycol (long-lasting fog)

   6. 30% distilled water: 70% dipropylene glycol (dense fog)

The resulting smoke should not smell 'burnt'. If it does, likely causes are too high of an operating temperature or too much glycerine/glycol/mineral oil in the mixture. The lower the percentage of organic, the less expensive the fog juice, but the fog will be lighter and will not last as long. Distilled water is only necessary if a heat exchanger or other tubing is used in the system. Using a homemade fog mixture in a commercial machine will almost certainly void the warranty, possibly damage the machine, and possibly pose a fire and/or health hazard.


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## fractionMan (Dec 14, 2010)

Just checked. Fog machines require lots of power


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

I have mucked about with black widow type catapults but never on demos. The pouches always seemed too small, you keep dropping the load.


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## lighterthief (Dec 14, 2010)

Better just to not get caught up in a static confrontational situation, where water cannons (and kettling) can be employed.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Many of London's streets are too small to deploy water cannon. I guess that the barriers that the police love to deploy may hinder the deployment if they are tangled up in a pile in front of them.


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## sim667 (Dec 14, 2010)

How are they filled up? could someone not just open that, it would empty out quickly if its emptying out of both ends.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 14, 2010)

I'd assume they fill them up from those fire points the Fire engines use


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## 1%er (Dec 14, 2010)

fractionMan said:


> Just checked. Fog machines require lots of power


 
Utilize all the hot air 

I have no idea how they work, but the foam works and there must be some chemicals that will make smoke if water is added.

If water is to be the new weapon (and I don't think it will be) to counter it you need to use something that reacts with it, I am just offering a view in the hope someone who understands chemistry will have a better idea.


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## moon23 (Dec 14, 2010)

Sir Hugh Orde was pretty clear on Today, that the police were not considering the use of water cannons. This is the Home Secretary indulging in placation of the Daily Mail, rather than a serious proposal.


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## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2010)

Oh yeah, and the training with 6 forces means that it's not now on the table _at some point_.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

moon23 said:


> Sir Hugh Orde was pretty clear on Today, that the police were not considering the use of water cannons. This is the Home Secretary indulging in placation of the Daily Mail, rather than a serious proposal.


 
Fuck off moon.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> "The Belgian Gendarmerie lent the RUC two, technologically improved water cannon in 1999. They were later used in the Drumcree protests.



The one we faced in Belgium had two hoses that worked independently. That was about 2002 I think. 

Waterproofs are recommended in the cold.


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## lopsidedbunny (Dec 14, 2010)

For info the N Ireland one are the old Dennis fire engines with the blue lights removed and replaced by two fire hose. So in effect it's a white fire engine in a caged cab.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 14, 2010)

Police tactics would have to be turned on its head. So far they've used containment as a method but water canons disperse people. 

If they wish to use weaponry borrowed from overseas then we ought to change accordingly.

For amoured vehicles there's really only one genuinely effective defence for us.....


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## DrRingDing (Dec 14, 2010)

But in our age of CCTV it'll be bloody risky.


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## Threshers_Flail (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> How do they ban a demo organised by no particular person?


 
True say.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> If the police get water cannon to attack protesters how do people negate their effectiveness? It seems a real fear that the water stream may damage the eyes, nose and mouth. So goggles? Getting wet at this time of year could well pose serious health risks for many people too.
> 
> I would think though that the water cannon trucks are pretty cumbersome. Plus they hold a finite amount of water.
> 
> Any one got any thoughts?


 
Some of the German squatter-chists I knew in the 80s used army surplus poncho-liners to keep the water off. They're waterproof and are roomy.
Nose and mouth, you just need a bandanna fastened tightly over them, to deflect the full force of the jet, so it doesn't go up your nose/down your throat at force and choke you.

Eyes, deffo *one-piece* goggles, not the Biggles-type ones, because the lenses will come out and twat you in the eye, whereas scuba-type goggles/masks are proof against pressure.


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## moon23 (Dec 14, 2010)

DrRingDing said:


> But in our age of CCTV it'll be bloody risky.


 

There are counter-measures to police survillance of peaceful protestors

Infared LEDs can be built into many things: 



Also there are simple designs for face paint that counter automated face recognition technology:  

http://www.searchthenetnow.com/tag/anti-face-recognition/


Moon was thinking of profiteering from these protests by offering face painting services and also supplies for people stuck in kettles.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I don't think the times demand RPG's somehow! But these bulky beats do have weak points. The tyres obviously. Plus they need to see where they are going so paint thrown on the windscreen would be effective. Have we got any people from the north of Ireland here who might know?


 
The tyres aren't a weak spot. They're solid pieces of rubber with the usual radial steel belting. You'd have to hack chunks out of them to do any damage.

I've always thought that a can of expanding foam would be a good one to squirt in the air vents/air intake, and up the exhaust. I've never had the opportunity to try it, though.


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## past caring (Dec 14, 2010)

moon23 said:


> Moon was thinking of profiteering from these protests by offering face painting services and also supplies for people stuck in kettles.



You're talking about yourself in the third person now?

Nurse?!!


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They have one obvious weakness - they can only aim at one point at any one time.


 
Which is why the Germans always use two or more at a time.


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## moon23 (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The tyres aren't a weak spot. They're solid pieces of rubber with the usual radial steel belting. You'd have to hack chunks out of them to do any damage.
> 
> I've always thought that a can of expanding foam would be a good one to squirt in the air vents/air intake, and up the exhaust. I've never had the opportunity to try it, though.



A giant umbrella would work


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/07/article-1327469-0BF3A476000005DC-69_634x443.jpg
> 
> This one was covered in tar and set alight? Interesting.


 
Water cannon are pretty much an armoured car, so they're prone to the same tricks that can be used on them. There are almost always smoke/gas tubes for releasing canisters from inside the vehicle, so the potato trick works (was done in the early days to the British army in Derry with alarming regularity), as it does up the exhaust pipes.
They're sealed environments (if they're less than 20 years old, anyway), so their air supply is through filtration. That means that if you can find the air intakes, you can block them.
As for the actual spray-heads, they use standard rubber and silicone seals like most high-pressure gear, so an application of the right substance, say brake fluid, will eat the seals in fairly short order.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

They obviously have to transport the water cannon from the depot base to the trouble hot spot. Low loader? Drive them through the streets? They would be vulnerable in traffic for sure.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 14, 2010)

I suppose IED's would be a step too far


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## likesfish (Dec 14, 2010)

pretty shit for use on british streets too narrow  you need wide open plazas.
  molotovs are pretty lousy against armoured vehicles and once you start chucking those about Baton rounds will be deployed .
  you can get big fuck off bruises from messing about with fire hoses had a water fight with a couple of fire engines once fun but afterwards a mass of bruises.
 army surplus goretex  waterproofs change of clothing in bin bags and a flask of something hot  plus don't be ware they want to use the water cannon.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd assume they fill them up from those fire points the Fire engines use


 
Yep, hydrant or (occasionally) from a tender. Can't see the FBU wanting it's members to cooperate with something like that, though!


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## Idaho (Dec 14, 2010)

I can see the tactics here, but not the strategy. Defeating water cannons in order to....?


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## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2010)

Tactics are bad now?


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## DrRingDing (Dec 14, 2010)

likesfish said:


> molotovs are pretty lousy against armoured vehicles.





Utter bollocks. Just look at why petrol bombs are called 'Molotovs'.


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## Spion (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> I can see the tactics here, but not the strategy. Defeating water cannons in order to....?


Good point. 

Someone else has noted that dispersal with water cannons is the complete opposite of police tactics now, which is containment


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## Idaho (Dec 14, 2010)

Tactics are essential. But if I wanted to achieve X by taking route Y and was being blocked from doing it by some technology or technique. I could either work out a way of rendering that technique ineffective and staying on route Y or try a different route.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> I can see the tactics here, but not the strategy. Defeating water cannons in order to....?


 
Prevent their use, whether that's by putting them out of commission, or by showing them up as useless for the job they're being employed for.
There's a reasonable amount of mileage in making the government look like hysterical ruling-class twat-bags.


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## Spion (Dec 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Tactics are bad now?


they're only ever part of bigger, strategic goals


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> I can see the tactics here, but not the strategy. Defeating water cannons in order to....?


 
A very valid point that. Worthy of its own thread. Seriously.


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## Spion (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's a reasonable amount of mileage in making the government look like hysterical ruling-class twat-bags.


LOL


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## Bakunin (Dec 14, 2010)

DrRingDing said:


> Utter bollocks. Just look at why petrol bombs are called 'Molotovs'.


 
Indeed, there is a simple but enormous distance between an ordinary petrol bomb and a Molotov cocktail.


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## Idaho (Dec 14, 2010)

Is it that you want to have random protests and disruption, but want to minimise injury/imprisonment to protestors?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

likesfish said:


> molotovs are pretty lousy against armoured vehicles and once you start chucking those about Baton rounds will be deployed .



Depends on the armoured vehicle, really. Some of the older ones were well-shit, like sieves. crap seals, the lot. You could tell when someone was having a fag in a Pig, because the smoke would come out of the gaps in the screen seals!


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## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2010)

Spion said:


> they're only *ever* part of bigger, strategic goals


 
They can be - there's plenty of other times when they're not. There's even the possibility that discussion of tactics _leads_ to strategy. (And then we get generals and so on).


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## Idaho (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Prevent their use, whether that's by putting them out of commission, or by showing them up as useless for the job they're being employed for.
> There's a reasonable amount of mileage in making the government look like hysterical ruling-class twat-bags.


 
If all you want to do is put them out of action, then you would probably have to target them before they were deployed, while they were undefended and not expecting it.


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## Spion (Dec 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> They can be - there's plenty of other times when they're not. There's even the possibility that discussion of tactics _leads_ to strategy. (And then we get generals and so on).


whatever. substitute 'usually' for 'only ever' in my post


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## butchersapron (Dec 14, 2010)

And this is one of those times. There are no generals directing this towards pre-agreed objectives.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> Is it that you want to have random protests and disruption, but want to minimise injury/imprisonment to protestors?


 
I think we want to win.


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## Spion (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> If all you want to do is put them out of action, then you would probably have to target them before they were deployed, while they were undefended and not expecting it.


I think the idea is dealing with them if they are deployed in situations like last week's demos


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## zenie (Dec 14, 2010)

@ how far this thread has gone since I read it earlier!

Re; my tear gas comment though, it wasn't the water that bothered people in Rostock 2007, it was the tear gas.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> Tactics are essential. But if I wanted to achieve X by taking route Y and was being blocked from doing it by some technology or technique. I could either work out a way of rendering that technique ineffective and staying on route Y or try a different route.


 
Not as easy done as said though, at least not in London (I can't speak for the centres of other cities), because alternate routes would mostly be restricted by the same problems as the original route: traffic and limited choice of alternatives.
So, strategy would be - small teams on each of the possible major routes and side routes, plus maybe a few dozen roving "spotters" keeping an eye out for when they come through. Bide your time, and then assault the vehicle at will. You could even deploy multiple teams on each route to ensure maximum mayhem. Choose tactics that fit the circumstances of each team.
Just speculating, like.


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## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Tear gas deserves a place on this thread as it can be added to the water mixture. Gas masks are easily available and not too expensive._ Screwfix _do lots of different ones but I personally would find them a bit restrictive. Plus if they get ripped off your head, you would leave DNA all over them. 

I doubt gas would be deployed here. You could see it drifting into buildings, killing asthmatics, upsetting babies. I think it will be water cannon, long shields (recently out and about) and baton rounds? When? Well probably after people start throwing petrol bombs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> Is it that you want to have random protests and disruption, but want to minimise injury/imprisonment to protestors?


 
That has to be part of it, but there's also the fact that it is generally better to "take out" ordnance before it can be deployed, full stop.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> If all you want to do is put them out of action, then you would probably have to target them before they were deployed, while they were undefended and not expecting it.


 
I agree, although I can see the appeal of the "humiliation factor" that the Met would feel if their borrowed armour got neutralised under the gaze of the cameras.


----------



## past caring (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> They obviously have to transport the water cannon from the depot base to the trouble hot spot. Low loader? Drive them through the streets? They would be vulnerable in traffic for sure.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I agree, although I can see the appeal of the "humiliation factor" that the Met would feel if their borrowed armour got neutralised under the gaze of the cameras.


 
Humiliating the Met is a fine ambition.


----------



## ymu (Dec 14, 2010)

Bandanas and an onion/lemon deal with tear gas. Bandana has a second purpose in defending against the fine mist sort of cannon attack (and, obviously, a third for masking up).

Water cannon are only really going to be a concern on big national demos that need to end up in one place - so hopefully only a tiny proportion of those in the coming months - but those which are focused on parliament during a vote are vulnerable. Kamikaze attacks from individual protesters are up to them, but I'd think the priority would be making sure people are prepared to defend themselves against them and thus defeat the object.

Main thing is, if they use water cannon it's for dispersal - they can't kettle at the same time. So they get mobs running riot around London instead of outside parliament. Doesn't really matter, as long as rings are run around them ...


----------



## Idaho (Dec 14, 2010)

Spion said:


> I think the idea is dealing with them if they are deployed in situations like last week's demos


 
The answer is the same as the answer to kettling. Stage spread out protests in areas of the city which have lots of narrow alleys, bridges, tunnels, and other potential dispersal and escape routes. Deploy makeshift barracades to prevent the easy moving of police vehicles (chained together shopping trolleys?). Keep moving, keep in contact, disperse when under threat, reassemble when there are no police.

A couple of days playing cat and mouse in the City would bring much of the place to a standstill. Target streets to gridlock them, etc.

My reservation is that the strategy is all about looking tough and having a pitched battle, rather than trying to maximise disruption.


----------



## zenie (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Tear gas deserves a place on this thread as it can be added to the water mixture. Gas masks are easily available and not too expensive._ Screwfix _do lots of different ones but I personally would find them a bit restrictive. Plus if they get ripped off your head, you would leave DNA all over them.
> 
> I doubt gas would be deployed here. You could see it drifting into buildings, killing asthmatics, upsetting babies. I think it will be water cannon, long shields (recently out and about) and baton rounds? When? Well probably after people start throwing petrol bombs.



They pulled a man out of his fuckin wheelchair and dragged him along the floor!!   I'm not sure what depths the police are prepared to sink to tbh!  



ymu said:


> Bandanas and an onion deal with tear gas. Bandana has a second purpose in defending against the fine mist sort of cannon attack (and, obviously, a third for masking up).


 
Bandana and an onion? Are you serious?! 

Everyone dresses black bloc obviously  Bandanas and gas masks, they'd look like an army!! oh god...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> And this is one of those times. There are no generals directing this towards pre-agreed objectives.


 
All the better in terms of autonomous groups undertaking this or that action, unconnected to a central locus of control.
The government know this too, it's why they're so thoroughly desperate to generate this narrative about "hard-core" and "class war" activists, and to attribute conflict during the protest to "street gangs". That way they can pretend there's some ultra-leftist or anarchist _eminence gris_ (no, attica, not you!) behind everything, rather than acknowledging that they've fucked so many people off that they've near-spontaneously come together in resistance.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> The answer is the same as the answer to kettling. Stage spread out protests in areas of the city which have lots of narrow alleys, bridges, tunnels, and other potential dispersal and escape routes. Deploy makeshift barracades to prevent the easy moving of police vehicles (chained together shopping trolleys?). Keep moving, keep in contact, disperse when under threat, reassemble when there are no police.


 

petrol powered forklift


----------



## DrRingDing (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I doubt gas would be deployed here. You could see it drifting into buildings, killing asthmatics, upsetting babies. I think it will be water cannon, long shields (recently out and about) and baton rounds? When? Well probably after people start throwing petrol bombs.


 
I doubt tear gas would be used, as well, but I think they'd try that before using rubber bullets in England. Plus, OB like to use tear gas canisters to shoot directly at crowds. That'll be a handy way around the politics of deploying rubber bullets.


----------



## nick h. (Dec 14, 2010)

This thread seems like a red herring to me.  The problem the police have is that the arrestable people are hugely outnumbered by peaceful kids. So Parliament won't allow water cannon because it doesn't discriminate - it will curtail the right to have a peaceful demo and lose the government's moral argument. If the police up the ante it will have to be with something selective, i.e. snatch squads. Which will be interesting. It will make for great telly, which will at least keep the issue at the top of the news agenda.


----------



## ymu (Dec 14, 2010)

zenie said:


> Bandana and an onion? Are you serious?!


Yes. Acid helps to neutralise the gas and a strong smell reminds your brain that you need to breathe. Bandana to provide a barrier to the gas, and can be soaked in lemon/onion juice to keep the defences in place.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Tear gas deserves a place on this thread as it can be added to the water mixture. Gas masks are easily available and not too expensive._ Screwfix _do lots of different ones but I personally would find them a bit restrictive. Plus if they get ripped off your head, you would leave DNA all over them.


Not too sure a standard fume mask would provide much protection against tear gas. Probably one of the ones with a HEPA filter would be better.
I'd probably go for this mask, and these goggles.


> I doubt gas would be deployed here. You could see it drifting into buildings, killing asthmatics, upsetting babies.


Yeah, but it wouldn't be the fault of the government if that happened, it'd be the fault of the damned ungrateful prole scum doing the protesting. 


> I think it will be water cannon, long shields (recently out and about) and baton rounds? When? Well probably after people start throwing petrol bombs.


Wonder which baton rounds they'll use?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

ymu said:


> Main thing is, if they use water cannon it's for dispersal - they can't kettle at the same time. So they get mobs running riot around London instead of outside parliament. Doesn't really matter, as long as rings are run around them ...


 
It should be borne in mind, however, that if the cannon crews have any notion of strategy and a method of direct communication on the RT (does the Met's system still have a "talk through" facility?), then they can coordinate to "herd" protesters in a desired direction, or even to corral them for short periods.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> The answer is the same as the answer to kettling. Stage spread out protests in areas of the city which have lots of narrow alleys, bridges, tunnels, and other potential dispersal and escape routes. Deploy makeshift barracades to prevent the easy moving of police vehicles (chained together shopping trolleys?). Keep moving, keep in contact, disperse when under threat, reassemble when there are no police.
> 
> A couple of days playing cat and mouse in the City would bring much of the place to a standstill. Target streets to gridlock them, etc.
> 
> My reservation is that the strategy is all about looking tough and having a pitched battle, rather than trying to maximise disruption.


 
Surely the strategy is to have no over-arching strategy, just a strategic objective - the repealing of the cuts?
As for people looking tough, etc, that doesn't seem to be the way things have gone so far (although I assume we can expect a certain number of liggers and protest groupies to appear), in fact the maximisation of disruption seems to be a buzz-phrase.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> The answer is the same as the answer to kettling. Stage spread out protests in areas of the city which have lots of narrow alleys, bridges, tunnels, and other potential dispersal and escape routes. Deploy makeshift barracades to prevent the easy moving of police vehicles (chained together shopping trolleys?). Keep moving, keep in contact, disperse when under threat, reassemble when there are no police.
> 
> A couple of days playing cat and mouse in the City would bring much of the place to a standstill. Target streets to gridlock them, etc.
> 
> My reservation is that the strategy is all about looking tough and having a pitched battle, rather than trying to maximise disruption.


 

Oh tactics for disruption are fairly well honed.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

nick h. said:


> This thread seems like a red herring to me.  The problem the police have is that the arrestable people are hugely outnumbered by peaceful kids. So Parliament won't allow water cannon because it doesn't discriminate - it will curtail the right to have a peaceful demo and lose the government's moral argument. If the police up the ante it will have to be with something selective, i.e. snatch squads. Which will be interesting. It will make for great telly, which will at least keep the issue at the top of the news agenda.


 
I remember well snatch squads back in the day. they used them on the poll tax riot for a while. Until the snatch squads got snatched and battered.


----------



## zenie (Dec 14, 2010)

Fancy dress for all  

And what about Agent Provacateurs....any of them been seen?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2010)

This looks like it could deal with water cannon and tear gas. Pity it is not in black.


----------



## ymu (Dec 14, 2010)

zenie said:


> Fancy dress for all
> 
> And what about Agent Provacateurs....any of them been seen?


Yeah - being discussed on the protest thread. About twenty thugs being allowed to attack people by the police. Possibly EDL.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> This looks like it could deal with water cannon and tear gas. Pity it is not in black.


 
Try this place ... they have quite the variety 

http://www.regulation-london.com/


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 14, 2010)

This is the future of protesting:







Minus the fins of course.

And if things get really hairy you can jump in to the Thames and swim away unseen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

nick h. said:


> This thread seems like a red herring to me.  The problem the police have is that the arrestable people are hugely outnumbered by peaceful kids. So Parliament won't allow water cannon because it doesn't discriminate - it will curtail the right to have a peaceful demo and lose the government's moral argument. If the police up the ante it will have to be with something selective, i.e. snatch squads. Which will be interesting. It will make for great telly, which will at least keep the issue at the top of the news agenda.


 
Commissioner Stephenson has already spoken today of protest marches being banned, so perhaps they're not as concerned with the moral argument as you believe?


----------



## A380 (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I think we want to win.



What does that look like?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Try this place ... they have quite the variety
> 
> http://www.regulation-london.com/


 
I wonder if May gets Stephenson to wear the gimp mask?


----------



## ymu (Dec 14, 2010)

A380 said:


> What does that look like?


A bit like this, only better.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Commissioner Stephenson has already spoken today of protest marches being banned, so perhaps they're not as concerned with the moral argument as you believe?


 
They have a moral argument I think, it just relies on premises that other people are unlikely to consider valid.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Dec 14, 2010)

double-post


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I wonder if May gets Stephenson to wear the gimp mask?


 
Oh please god I'm about to eat ... or possibly not now .. yuck


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They have a moral argument I think, it just relies on premises that other people are unlikely to consider valid.


 
Or, indeed, moral.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Oh please god I'm about to eat ... or possibly not now .. yuck


 
Sorry about that, Bernie!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2010)

i think a simple paving slab would deal with the watercannon, if dropped from five stories or higher.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Depends on the armoured vehicle, really. Some of the older ones were well-shit, like sieves. crap seals, the lot. You could tell when someone was having a fag in a Pig, because the smoke would come out of the gaps in the screen seals!


 
lol  fuckin' terrible things, pigs.

Just catching up, but hasn't May dismissed the use of water canon?

To be honest, bring what the fuck they want, we'll out number them.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 14, 2010)

TopCat said:


> I remember well snatch squads back in the day. they used them on the poll tax riot for a while. Until the snatch squads got snatched and battered.


 
hehe


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 14, 2010)

copliker said:


> Small children in vantage points plus paint loaded water pistol things.


 
From the same photo set on the same peaceful demonstration in Stuttgart:



Spoiler: Pic showing particularly unpleasant result of police attack with water cannon, gas & batons


----------



## rekil (Dec 14, 2010)

Get them on the way from whereever they'll be based. Provoke an existential crisis amongst the operators by switching roadsigns with this sort of thing.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 14, 2010)

Safety goggles are a MUST have in your back pack.


----------



## rekil (Dec 14, 2010)

DaveCinzano said:


> From the same photo set on the same peaceful demonstration in Stuttgart:
> 
> Pic showing particularly unpleasant result of police attack with water cannon, gas & batons


 Yup, 66 year old man. 


> Egon Georg Weidle, senior doctor at Stuttgart’s Katharinen Hospital, diagnosed Wagner with “serious eye injuries.” As well as suffering major bruising on both sides, Wagner’s eyelids were torn, and on one side, part of his orbital bone – which encases the eye – was fractured.
> 
> The retina on the same side also suffered suspected damage. The lenses of his eyes were damaged and will need to be replaced by artificial lenses. Wagner was “at the moment blind,” the doctor told Stern. He could not say whether his patient’s sight would ever be fully restored.


----------



## stupid kid (Dec 14, 2010)

Idaho said:


> I can see the tactics here, but not the strategy. Defeating water cannons in order to....?


 
Not be hit by water cannons.


----------



## A380 (Dec 14, 2010)

ymu said:


> A bit like this, only better.



I did have a drink that day. But it was other Torys that got rid of her, not street action...


----------



## ymu (Dec 14, 2010)

A380 said:


> I did have a drink that day. But it was other Torys that got rid of her, not street action...


 
Yeah, they just woke up one day and decided that the poll tax really wasn't on. 

It wasn't just street action, it was mass non-payment. No one action will force this shower out, but many, many actions can.


----------



## 1%er (Dec 14, 2010)

ymu said:


> A bit like this, only better.


What is Eric Sykes doing there


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

Mr.Bishie said:


> lol  fuckin' terrible things, pigs.


I'm sure they were fine when they were first designed, back in the '50s, but they were fucking scarily crap by the late '70s-early '80s. 


> Just catching up, but hasn't May dismissed the use of water canon?


Not so much dismissed as said they have no plans to use them...


> To be honest, bring what the fuck they want, we'll out number them.


And *that* is what they don't seem to quite get, isn't it? That all their prattling about "class war activists", "anarchist gangs" and trouble-makers" isn't working because they've not just pissed the students off with the education cuts, the EMA cuts and the tripling of tuition fees, they've pissed vast swathes of the rest of the public (the disabled, the families who're having tax credits reduced, those who'll be affected by housing benefit/LHA changes, those who'll be affected by local authority spending cuts...the list goes on), who're all intent on having their say too, and maybe having a pop at a cop, if one takes a swing at them first.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2010)

1%er said:


> What is Eric Sykes doing there


 
They hired him to wank off into her eyes so that the old cunt could squeeze out a few tears to make herself look vaguely human.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Dec 14, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> They hired him to wank off into her eyes so that the old cunt could squeeze out a few tears to make herself look vaguely human.


 
That's my supper fucked too now


----------



## Mooncat (Dec 14, 2010)

I have no problems with water cannons


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 14, 2010)

Badgers said:


> Carry loads of bubblebath?


i love you


----------



## 1%er (Dec 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> They hired him to wank off into her eyes so that the old cunt could squeeze out a few tears to make herself look vaguely human.


 
Hired him! I've have done it for nothing  apparently she had very nice ankles

Anyway back to ideas for negating water cannon, Industrial concentrated liquid soap is very cheap a few gallons of that may make things interesting, also soap powder if enough people take it with them. Superabsorbent polymers the stuff found in disposable nappies reacts well with water and red dye could also be good if you could get lots of it, it would make a right mess of the coppers uniforms if they followed after the water cannon slipping with all the soap etc.

If you want to make a big show and a very big point you may want to try something like Sodium it is a highly combustible element and the addition of water can make it explode, I think there are other elements that react like Sodium as well. Not sure how hard they are to get hold off in the UK, but you would sure be making a statement.

Disclaimer: I am not recommending that anyone use any of the products I have mentioned on this thread, I am not inciting anyone to do anything, I have just been thinking about the question asked in the OP it is all hypothetical


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 15, 2010)

so you negate the effect of the water cannon by using sodium and causing a massive explosion which blows you up?

you haven't really thought this through have you?


----------



## Fruitloop (Dec 15, 2010)

Be nice, it's a brilliant idea up until the bit where it blows you up.


----------



## 1%er (Dec 15, 2010)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> so you negate the effect of the water cannon by using sodium and causing a massive explosion which blows you up?
> 
> you haven't really thought this through have you?


 
Who said anything about causing a *massive* explosion


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 15, 2010)

Science did.


----------



## 1%er (Dec 15, 2010)

Hahahahaha

I expected people to think about how to use it to negate water cannon, it is clear I am not dealing with suicide boomers here 

I am sure that one or two people here will be able to workout how to use it to best effect


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

1%er said:


> Hired him! I've have done it for nothing  apparently she had very nice ankles
> 
> Anyway back to ideas for negating water cannon, Industrial concentrated liquid soap is very cheap a few gallons of that may make things interesting, also soap powder if enough people take it with them. Superabsorbent polymers the stuff found in disposable nappies reacts well with water and red dye could also be good if you could get lots of it, it would make a right mess of the coppers uniforms if they followed after the water cannon slipping with all the soap etc.
> 
> ...




Problem with sodium is that on contact with water it "burns" at a very hot temperature, hot enough to eat through flesh quite quickly, so dangerous for all parties.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 15, 2010)

1%er said:


> Hahahahaha
> 
> I expected people to think about how to use it to negate water cannon, it is clear I am not dealing with suicide boomers here
> 
> I am sure that one or two people here will be able to workout how to use it to best effect


what's a _suicide boomer_?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

Fruitloop said:


> Be nice, it's a brilliant idea up until the bit where it blows you up.


 
Yep. Thermite charges to incapacitate the water cannon are a good idea up until they burn anyone less than an arm's-length away when they ignite, too.


----------



## 1%er (Dec 15, 2010)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> what's a _suicide boomer_?


 
someone born in the baby boom who gave it all up


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

1%er said:


> Hahahahaha
> 
> I expected people to think about how to use it to negate water cannon, it is clear I am not dealing with suicide boomers here
> 
> I am sure that one or two people here will be able to workout how to use it to best effect


 
It's hard to handle, can start gassing off at levels of atmospheric humidity, and needs careful management. There is no "best effect"!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> what's a _suicide boomer_?


 
A car bomber with a decent ICE system, innit.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Water cannon are pretty much an armoured car, so they're prone to the same tricks that can be used on them. There are almost always smoke/gas tubes for releasing canisters from inside the vehicle, so the potato trick works (was done in the early days to the British army in Derry with alarming regularity), as it does up the exhaust pipes.


 
Does the spud up the exhaust pipe work though?

When they did it on Mythbusters it jest got blown out by the engine.


----------



## 1%er (Dec 15, 2010)

Where is your commitment? 

You should all be out now looking to buy or steal some of these reactive metals and experimenting with them to see how small a piece makes an effective bang and flash, then 'nicking some thermos flasks so you can take it to the demo without it getting wet.

What you lot need is a leader


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

Spymaster said:


> Does the spud up the exhaust pipe work though?


It depends how tight the fit is, which is why I prefer the idea of expanding foam.


> When they did it on Mythbusters it jest got blown out by the engine.


I saw that one, but they revved the engine, didn't they (rapidly increased gas pressure = spud-gun effect)? An idling engine (say at lights, or stationary so it can super-soak you) should just choke up (at least it did the half dozen times I tried it on various mates ).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

1%er said:


> Where is your commitment?
> 
> You should all be out now looking to buy or steal some of these reactive metals and experimenting with them to see how small a piece makes an effective bang and flash, then 'nicking some thermos flasks so you can take it to the demo without it getting wet.
> 
> What you lot need is a leader


 
That's fine by me, just as long as it's the supreme commander who carries and handles the hazmat!


----------



## 8den (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm sorry "thermite charges"? Sodium against water cannon? It's like a bunch of BB's with delusions of being McGuvyer competing to see who can get the best Darwin award.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> It depends how tight the fit is, which is why I prefer the idea of expanding foam.
> 
> I saw that one, but they revved the engine, didn't they (rapidly increased gas pressure = spud-gun effect)? An idling engine (say at lights, or stationary so it can super-soak you) should just choke up (at least it did the half dozen times I tried it on various mates ).



I don't think I've ever tried it, which is quite amazing given that it's one of those rite of passage things. 

I will remedy this and report back.


----------



## 1%er (Dec 15, 2010)

8den said:


> I'm sorry "thermite charges"? Sodium against water cannon? It's like a bunch of BB's with delusions of being McGuvyer competing to see who can get the best Darwin award.


 
McGuvyer would make a airplane from bamboo and sheets then fly over the water cannon with a thingamajig made from recycled fridges that would freeze the water before it left the cannon.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

8den said:


> I'm sorry "thermite charges"? Sodium against water cannon? It's like a bunch of BB's with delusions of being McGuvyer competing to see who can get the best Darwin award.


 
If you've bothered to read my post about thermite charges, you *should* have been able to detect the less than subtle streak of sarcasm running through it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think I've ever tried it, which is quite amazing given that it's one of those rite of passage things.
> 
> I will remedy this and report back.


 
Do *not* blame me when Kris does her nut because she thinks she's blown up the car's engine! 







E2A: Hot exhaust pipe is better. if the pipe is cold, it expands around the spud-plug as it warms, enough to break the "seal", anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2010)

1%er said:


> McGuvyer would make a airplane from bamboo and sheets then fly over the water cannon with a thingamajig made from recycled fridges that would freeze the water before it left the cannon.


 
There's no way MacGyver would recycle harmful CFCs from fridges!! 

Take it back!!


----------



## 8den (Dec 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you've bothered to read my post about thermite charges, you *should* have been able to detect the less than subtle streak of sarcasm running through it.


 
Sorry VP. 

 I skimmed the thread, the very concept of the thread is ludicrous, you don't deal with watercannons, and a set of water proofs is going to do you about as much good as as a wet suit jumping over Niagara Falls.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 15, 2010)

not being where they want to use the water cannon probably the best idea
 or having lots of minions who are quite happy to charge it till it runs out of water


----------



## DrRingDing (Dec 15, 2010)

8den said:


> Sorry VP.
> 
> I skimmed the thread, the very concept of the thread is ludicrous, you don't deal with watercannons, and a set of water proofs is going to do you about as much good as as a wet suit jumping over Niagara Falls.


 
Water canons, and their use, have several weaknesses that we can exploit. The point about the waterproof is not to deflect a full on jet but the spray. Water canons produce a lot of spray that will soak on lookers.

....being wet for hours in winter is not fun. A warm anarchist is a happy anarchist.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 15, 2010)

likesfish said:


> or having lots of minions who are quite happy to charge it till it runs out of water


 
I always thought, however unlikely it might once have seemed, that Swappies might one day be useful for something.


----------



## 1%er (Dec 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's no way MacGyver would recycle harmful CFCs from fridges!!
> 
> Take it back!!


Please don't tell me he has gone all green and environmentally friendly 

IIRC he used Sodium to blow a hold in the wall to escape from somewhere, but mythbusters showed it wouldn't work


----------



## Corax (Dec 15, 2010)

Has shitloads of caesium been suggested?


----------



## Prince Rhyus (Dec 15, 2010)

See, back in my day we watched cartoons where a box of drawing pins had the required effect of stopping traffic - except chuggaboom from wacky races who could tiptoe in between them


----------



## paolo (Dec 15, 2010)

Corax said:


> Has shitloads of caesium been suggested?


 
Not yet. We're still working our way round the periodic table.


----------



## Corax (Dec 15, 2010)

paolo999 said:


> Not yet. We're still working our way round the periodic table.


 
Caesium's definitely the way to go.  You should listen to me; I did GCSE science.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Dec 15, 2010)

In that case, could you make a case for electrolysis? No good spraying demonstrators with water if they point electric wands at it and separate the stuff into oxygen and hydrogen.


----------



## Corax (Dec 15, 2010)

Maurice Picarda said:


> In that case, could you make a case for electrolysis? No good spraying demonstrators with water if they point electric wands at it and separate the stuff into oxygen and hydrogen.


 
It could be tried, but it might generate a negative disruptive tide on people's chi and perplex their auras.  I'd suggest that we try a homeopathic counter-cannon measure first.


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## Louis MacNeice (Dec 15, 2010)

Corax said:


> It could be tried, but it might generate a negative disruptive tide on people's chi and perplex their auras.  I'd suggest that we try a homeopathic counter-cannon measure first.


 
Diluted water?

Louis MacNeice


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2010)

8den said:


> Sorry VP.
> 
> I skimmed the thread...


No problem.


> ...the very concept of the thread is ludicrous, you don't deal with watercannons...


What is meant by "deal with", though?
We're talking about immobilisation, mostly, which can be something as simple as compromising the driver's ability to see clearly through his windscreen, or something as complex as TopCat's picture of a water cannon covered in tar and ignited.
I still reckon that expanding foam sprayed up the exhaust pipe is a goer, too. 


> ....and a set of water proofs is going to do you about as much good as as a wet suit jumping over Niagara Falls.


 
To be fair, whether a set of waterproofs do you any good depends on the type of water cannon, and the rate it's pumping at (they have variable flow control).


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2010)

1%er said:


> Please don't tell me he has gone all green and environmentally friendly


MacGyver was well green, he recycled loads of old rubbish into weapons to fight the man, man! 


> IIRC he used Sodium to blow a hold in the wall to escape from somewhere, but mythbusters showed it wouldn't work


 
Mythbusters can be real killjoys, the bastards!


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2010)

Corax said:


> Has shitloads of caesium been suggested?


 
I'd prefer Thallium, preferably in the coppers' tea and coffee.


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 16, 2010)

Water canons hit bad when they get a direct hit aprox 50 metres...
thing is its like a fire hose.. if u may be cute enough it aint gonna touch you... there are rumours they are adding dye to identify people...
They tried it with us in 60's n America but there are ways around everything.... I cant see John Hume, noble prize winner, endorsing...
The 6 counties was the playground for these tactics.... trust me there are enough Paddy's to educate..  they have stopped using them as we know how to stop them allegedly
Ive seen enough of these stupid immobile weapons, brought to a stand still......


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## nick h. (Dec 16, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> we know how to stop them



Well???


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## 8den (Dec 16, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> No problem.
> 
> What is meant by "deal with", though?
> We're talking about immobilisation, mostly, which can be something as simple as compromising the driver's ability to see clearly through his windscreen, or something as complex as TopCat's picture of a water cannon covered in tar and ignited.
> I still reckon that expanding foam sprayed up the exhaust pipe is a goer, too.



No it's not the the exhaust pipe and fumes will simply be too hot for any foam to set. 

And tar paint etc....It's got a friggin water cannon, nothing you throw at it will stick!


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## free spirit (Dec 16, 2010)

I got an offer to borrow a load of fire brigade hoses before the G8 protests in scotland to create our own water cannon to defend the camp with... never actually got chance to find out if the offer was serious or not.

In other totally unrelated news, there are fire hydrants all over london, and keys can be hired from HSS as can hoses, and most office blocks have fire hoses fitted as standard usually on the stair landings.


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## Bakunin (Dec 16, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd prefer Thallium, preferably in the coppers' tea and coffee.


 
I'd go for either strychnine or brucine, personally. Both are bitter alkaloids found in the 'strychnos nux vomica' plant and can be guaranteed to offer the slowest and most agonising death imaginable.


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## Corax (Dec 16, 2010)

AKA pseudonym said:


> there are rumours they are adding dye to identify people...


 
How does that work?

_"You've got dye on you!  You were at that protest!"

"Yes?"

"Erm...."_


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## Mr.Bishie (Dec 16, 2010)

lol


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2010)

8den said:


> No it's not the the exhaust pipe and fumes will simply be too hot for any foam to set.


You've just destroyed my dreams, man. My dreams! 


> And tar paint etc....It's got a friggin water cannon, nothing you throw at it will stick!


 
Does a water cannon miraculously spray itself at high enough pressure to stop anything sticky from adhering?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2010)

Corax said:


> How does that work?
> 
> _"You've got dye on you!  You were at that protest!"
> 
> ...


 
There have supposedly been talks between the OB and the marketers of "SmartWater", which has a unique chemical marker in it, which can be used to identify people who've been sprayed with it. It's not a dye.

The point of it is that if you criminalise the act of going on a protest (as can already happen), then being able to identify those that attended would mean, _ipso facto_, that you were identifying "criminals".

Fucking pathetic, isn't it?


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## Corax (Dec 16, 2010)

You can be prosecuted for 'being at a protest'?  WTF?  Since when?


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## TopCat (Dec 16, 2010)

Prince Rhyus said:


> See, back in my day we watched cartoons where a box of drawing pins had the required effect of stopping traffic - except chuggaboom from wacky races who could tiptoe in between them


 
Roofing nails for the support vehicles?


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## TopCat (Dec 16, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd prefer Thallium, preferably in the coppers' tea and coffee.


 
Jeez we are getting deep into the P table...


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## Refused as fuck (Dec 16, 2010)

"Negating the effects of a water canon"? Um... a very large jug? A an enormous sponge*!


*(not you, DotCommunist)


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## TopCat (Dec 16, 2010)

A big sponge sounds lovely...


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## likesfish (Dec 16, 2010)

I guess its bringing back the old idea of the riot act.
 ie we've brought out the water cannon disperse now or once we start spraying get dyed your guilty of riotous assembly or something.
   its not the protesting its the criminal damge trying to attack the police.


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## Refused as fuck (Dec 16, 2010)

What's that shit schoolkids would their impress their mates with by turning a beaker of water solid? That bollocks. Stuff it in the business end*.

*(No, not your mum, DotCommunist)


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## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2010)

Bit of a leap
there
you fopping duck


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## TopCat (Dec 16, 2010)

Maybe they would re design the WC to include a big pope mobile style bubble on the top for the Silver to read the riot act from before they squirt people...


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## PeterTCA (Dec 17, 2010)

Fairy Washing Up Liquid is more versatile than PVA and, of course, is kinder to your hands.


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## Bakunin (Dec 17, 2010)

PeterTCA said:


> Fairy Washing Up Liquid is more versatile than PVA and, of course, is kinder to your hands.


 
*Cues up new advert jingle*

'So hands that blind windscreens can feel soft as your faaace...'


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## Refused as fuck (Dec 17, 2010)

Is DC's mum available for comment? I'd be interested to know her views.


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## Bakunin (Dec 17, 2010)

In the manner of the esteemed Mr. Baldrick Esquire, I've come up with a cunning plan for deployment of airstrikes.

We simply inform the Americans that there's a simply massive Taliban stronghold at whichever spot we need them to devastate and that Osama is definitely in residence. Upon deploying their simply massive aerial armada to Central London and, being Americans, they'll naturally napalm the first uniformed British people they see as they're inbound to target. Result: The total devastation of the TSG and the streets are ours.

Do I win five pounds?


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2010)

Corax said:


> You can be prosecuted for 'being at a protest'?  WTF?  Since when?


 
There are provisions in the CJA (1994) for "unlawful assembly" (which may constitute a gathering of as few as *ten* people!!!). 
There is also a whole armoury of stuff like breach of the peace and public nuisance that you can be charged with.

Bear in mind that this stuff is current, and what Stephenson has been bleating about in the media are both the use of current legislation to curb protest, plus new powers he'd like (and possibly hopes a panicking govt can be snowballed into passing).


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2010)

TopCat said:


> Jeez we are getting deep into the P table...


 
It's been an ambition, ever since I watched "The Young Poisoner's Handbook".


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## Refused as fuck (Dec 17, 2010)

Refused as fuck said:


> What's that shit schoolkids would their impress their mates with by turning a beaker of water solid? That bollocks. Stuff it in the business end*.
> 
> *(No, not your mum, DotCommunist)


 
I think this is a goer*.



*


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2010)

Refused as fuck said:


> What's that shit schoolkids would their impress their mates with by turning a beaker of water solid? That bollocks.


You mean the polymer crystals that absorb water and turn into a set gel?


> Stuff it in the business end*.
> 
> *(No, not your mum, DotCommunist)


 
You *so* have a secret lust for her ringpiece!


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> In the manner of the esteemed Mr. Baldrick Esquire, I've come up with a cunning plan for deployment of airstrikes.
> 
> We simply inform the Americans that there's a simply massive Taliban stronghold at whichever spot we need them to devastate and that Osama is definitely in residence. Upon deploying their simply massive aerial armada to Central London and, being Americans, they'll naturally napalm the first uniformed British people they see as they're inbound to target. Result: The total devastation of the TSG and the streets are ours.
> 
> Do I win five pounds?


 
Nope.

You're making the massive assumption that the Yanks can actually hit something they're targetting. Knowing them, an attack on the TSG in and around Parliament Square would see Croydon laid waste.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2010)

Refused as fuck said:


> I think this is a goer*.
> 
> 
> 
> *


 
Dottie's mum?

She is!


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## Bakunin (Dec 17, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> Knowing them, an attack on the TSG in and around Parliament Square would see Croydon laid waste.


 
You say that as though it's a bad thing.


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## TopCat (Dec 17, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> You say that as though it's a bad thing.


 
When you are tired of Croydon you are tired of life...


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## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 17, 2010)

*yawns*


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## Corax (Dec 17, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> There are provisions in the CJA (1994) for "unlawful assembly" (which may constitute a gathering of as few as *ten* people!!!).
> There is also a whole armoury of stuff like breach of the peace and public nuisance that you can be charged with.
> 
> Bear in mind that this stuff is current, and what Stephenson has been bleating about in the media are both the use of current legislation to curb protest, plus new powers he'd like (and possibly hopes a panicking govt can be snowballed into passing).


 
The legislation hasn't been used (abused) in this manner _yet_ though has it?  I'm probably being naive, but when they start prosecuting people for just being in the vicinity of a protest I'd hope there'd be a bit of a public backlash to that.

Mind you, that's all Tomlinson was guilty of, and they _killed_ him...

Plus, a joke about DotC's mum.


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## Wilson (Dec 18, 2010)




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## Wilson (Dec 18, 2010)




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## Wilson (Dec 18, 2010)




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## mincepie (Dec 18, 2010)

Corax said:


> How does that work?
> 
> _"You've got dye on you!  You were at that protest!"
> 
> ...


 

It's in the norm for cash in ATM's etc....

Strange in a water cannon tho!

http://www.smartwater.com/Media-Cen...009/G4S-cash-in-transit-attacks-down-24-.aspx


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## Wilson (Dec 18, 2010)




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## Wilson (Dec 18, 2010)




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## DotCommunist (Dec 18, 2010)

'search24pc' shows as last poster on this thread but there is no post


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## yield (Dec 18, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> 'search24pc' shows as last poster on this thread but there is no post


 
What's going on?

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/members/58946-search24pc


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## DotCommunist (Dec 18, 2010)

one wonders, paranoid like, about snoopers.


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## London_Calling (Dec 18, 2010)

Wilson said:


>


 
If he can lob a breeze block that far with effect he should be in the Olympics. Bogus bollocks.


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## Wilson (Dec 18, 2010)

1 its a wide angle lens making him look further away than he is
2 he appears to be lifting his right leg so may well be walking or running forwards


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## kenny g (Dec 18, 2010)

It's a breeze block. Hardly heavy.


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## Corax (Dec 18, 2010)

Wilson said:


>


 


London_Calling said:


> If he can lob a breeze block that far with effect he should be in the Olympics. Bogus bollocks.


 
What's actually happened is that the breeze block has been hurled from some sort of ad-hoc mortar arrangement at the truck, has smashed its windscreen, and cannoned off.

The heroic young man in the centre of the picture has then caught the rebounding missile, preventing a dreadful tragedy as he's standing directly in front of a row of prams and pushchairs (just out of picture).


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## butchersapron (Dec 18, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> If he can lob a breeze block that far with effect he should be in the Olympics. Bogus bollocks.


 
Who said that he can? Beyond you i mean.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 18, 2010)

Depends on what type of block. They're not all concrete.


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## Mr.Bishie (Dec 18, 2010)

Corax said:


> What's actually happened is that the breeze block has been hurled from some sort of ad-hoc mortar arrangement at the truck, has smashed its windscreen, and cannoned off.
> 
> The heroic young man in the centre of the picture has then caught the rebounding missile, preventing a dreadful tragedy as he's standing directly in front of a row of prams and pushchairs (just out of picture).


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## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 18, 2010)

+






=


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## ApocalypseDream (Dec 19, 2010)

The priority would have to be finding out where they store them and disable them en route.  Once deployed they will have an escort of infantry and be near impossible to attack.


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## free spirit (Dec 19, 2010)

ApocalypseDream said:


> The priority would have to be finding out where they store them and disable them en route.  Once deployed they will have an escort of infantry and be near impossible to attack.


prior to the protest they'll be kept fairly secure, but immediately before deployment they'll probably be kept in reserve around 2-3 blocks from the likely site of the main kettle on a side street probably near to the main mobile command unit (if one is being deployed).


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## Wilson (Dec 19, 2010)

Looking at this photo you can see how it might be used, a bit like a tank with the infantry following






You can see the pig coming in on the right waving his stick in the air

the radiator grilles look quite vulnerable on that model..


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2010)

Wilson said:


> Looking at this photo you can see how it might be used, a bit like a tank with the infantry following
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The protester in the stripy tee-shirt looks like he's rather enjoying his shower.


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## rekil (Dec 20, 2010)

Wilson said:


> You can see the pig coming in on the right waving his stick in the air


 A group of people sat down on the right a little bit in front of me and the gardai used the opportunity to batter them. There were quite a few broken bones. It goes without saying that they were hitting those who were on their feet as well, but the whacking tempo was upped considerably when people sat down and did that hands in the air thing. 

Someone had the foresight to bring a bucket which he used to catch water from the cannon and chuck it at the coppers.


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## Steel Icarus (Dec 20, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> The protester in the stripy tee-shirt looks like he's rather enjoying his shower.



Isn't that a Celtic shirt?


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## rekil (Dec 20, 2010)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Isn't that a Celtic shirt?


 
Or Shamrock Rovers, the evil ones.


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## where to (Dec 20, 2010)

copliker said:


> Someone had the foresight to bring a bucket which he used to catch water from the cannon and chuck it at the coppers.


 
lol


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 20, 2010)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Isn't that a Celtic shirt?


I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt (not sectarian, btw, I think Rangers are monkey-rapists, too).


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## The Black Hand (Dec 20, 2010)

kenny g said:


> It's a breeze block. Hardly heavy.


 
Yup.


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## The Black Hand (Dec 20, 2010)

copliker said:


> A group of people sat down on the right a little bit in front of me and the gardai used the opportunity to batter them. There were quite a few broken bones. It goes without saying that they were hitting those who were on their feet as well, but the whacking tempo was upped considerably when people sat down and did that hands in the air thing.
> 
> *Someone had the foresight to bring a bucket which he used to catch water from the cannon and chuck it at the coppers*.


 
Admirable.

I think TC was right when he said paint and glue, put them in 'pump action' water pistols and get the screens. Brave types could also try to disable any window wipers they have, BUT if we are lucky the window wipers will smear the paint all over the window FOR us... I've seen pigs wiping the paint off riot helmet visors only to smear it more effectively


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## Andy 13 (Mar 30, 2012)

Look this, the water cannon have been defeated


1.






2.





3.





4.





5.


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## London_Calling (Mar 30, 2012)

You'd think it could put out its own fire.


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## TopCat (Apr 5, 2012)

Corax said:


> What's actually happened is that the breeze block has been hurled from some sort of ad-hoc mortar arrangement at the truck, has smashed its windscreen, and cannoned off.
> 
> The heroic young man in the centre of the picture has then caught the rebounding missile, preventing a dreadful tragedy as he's standing directly in front of a row of prams and pushchairs (just out of picture).


That is an excellent and inventive defence!


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## Mr Smin (Apr 13, 2012)

Overturning one of these will be pretty tricky. The crowd has to isolate it from the infantry for a start. Also the ones in the UK pictures look bigger and therefore heavier - especially when their water tanks are full.
I'm another vote for sticky paint.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 13, 2012)

Why wait for them to be deployed? They're garaged somewhere, and no depot is without its weaknesses.


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## sim667 (Apr 17, 2012)

DIY stingers.


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## DaveCinzano (Apr 17, 2012)

I can't believe I said 'garaged'. I feel dirty.


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