# 2012/13 tax return thread...



## zenie (Jan 15, 2014)

Who's done theirs? Who hasn't? 

I am just opening my spreadsheet....need to track down my hmrc log in too


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## TruXta (Jan 15, 2014)

Not done yet - just got the Gov Gateway log-in the other day  Mine should be simple to actually submit tho.


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## editor (Jan 15, 2014)

Aaaaaaargh.


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## Yelkcub (Jan 15, 2014)

Accountant sorted last week. Going to make payment later.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 15, 2014)

did mine about a month ago.  

they have accepted the numbers I gave them and given me a refund of about £ 130


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## pesh (Jan 15, 2014)

finished mine at half 2 this morning. with some help from the Fishco.


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## Manter (Jan 16, 2014)

OK, so I'm not filling in my tax return tonight.  I have three codes, all gained by following slightly different processes and with a 7-10 day lead time, and I've entered them into the website to be told the combination generates (you've guessed it) another code.  Which has a 7-10 day lead time.  Its almost like the system is as complicated and fucked up as possible so they can catch you out and charge you for late submission


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 17, 2014)

So obviously, as soon I need to be at home to sort out building work and maintenance etc I get a load of work all of a sudden. 
I have a free day today which might be the only free day I have this month to get my taxes done. 
I wanted to make a more complicated claim this year, but I don't think I have time now. 

Is it just me, or has there been no reminders about tax returns this year? 
I'm sure I usually see loads of ads and get sent a reminder letter and email. 
So far I have had nothing. 

What I also hate about the system is that there are no receipts generated. They could make the on-line claim thing really easy, with a payment at the end. Instead, you have to remember all the advance  figures etc, then go to another site to pay, where you get no recognition. I'm pretty sure they don't send you anything in the post either, apart from a reminder to pay the next half of what you owe in the middle of the year (which I always get a week too late anyway). 

It really doesn't have to be this taxing.


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## Dan U (Jan 17, 2014)

just been speaking to my accountant as it goes. hate this time of year, Tax Return and my Ltd Company Accounts are due end of Feb and Corporation Tax to pay.


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## Spymaster (Jan 17, 2014)

Yelkcub said:


> Accountant sorted last week. Going to make payment later.



I signed and returned mine to the accountant last week too, but I'm not paying until the 30th.

Ha! Take that, HMRC.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 17, 2014)

Ah, got a letter just now. 
I don't use an accountant. I kind of looked into what deductions I can make, and if I am super honest, I can't really make any. There are many many grey areas where I suppose I can 'technically' claim for a few things, but I am not really sure that it's fair. 
I'm not a MP.


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## _angel_ (Jan 17, 2014)

I did all the accounts for last tax year months ago, but still haven't filled the form in! I know the numbers but they always seem like trick questions on the form.
Still baffled about the "tax losses" question. I don't think it's asking what I think it is asking so I deleted that bit.


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## AnnaKarpik (Jan 17, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Ah, got a letter just now.
> I don't use an accountant. I kind of looked into what deductions I can make, and if I am super honest, I can't really make any. There are many many grey areas where I suppose I can 'technically' claim for a few things, but I am not really sure that it's fair.
> I'm not a MP.



Which "grey areas" are you looking at?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 17, 2014)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Which "grey areas" are you looking at?


I am self employed, I can work at home and do sometimes. However I mostly (and in the last tax year pretty much only) go to a place of work for a contracted period. 
If I travel for work I can claim my travel card, (from my base at home to the other place) however I can't really because it's not a one off journey, I am traveling to a place of work, just as a normal person does (and doesn't claim travel). 
I could maybe claim some bills for my office at home. But I don't really do the core of my work there. 
I bought some stuff that can help me with a few jobs that I do, but I really bought it for myself, and the paid jobs I use them on are very very few and far between. 
I use a lot of music in my editing work, I could claim that the records I buy are for that purpose. But they are not really.
Magazines & DVDs  I buy could be research into TV productions that I make. But they are not.  etc etc. 

I did look into it all a couple of years ago, but I am not currently an expert on the subject


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## editor (Jan 17, 2014)

Aaaaargh!


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## TruXta (Jan 17, 2014)

editor said:


> Aaaaargh!


Shush, there there...


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## AnnaKarpik (Jan 17, 2014)

Done.
Took a few goes to make the bloody form understand they don't have to pay me anything back


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## zenie (Jan 17, 2014)

I have sorted some stuff into a few piles


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## Wilson (Jan 17, 2014)

i have done sweet fuck all


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## editor (Jan 17, 2014)

zenie said:


> I have sorted some stuff into a few piles


Yes, I've made a neat pile of bank statements. 

They can sit over there for a while.


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## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2014)

I've started my spreadsheet at least.

Mine's not particularly difficult now I've got all the bits of paperwork, I just need to do it.


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## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

"*Your tax return is 1% complete" *


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## Cribynkle (Jan 21, 2014)

I finished my first ever one at the begining of Jan. Next year I'll be able to claim for the Staples raid I did to get folders, post it page dividers and highlighters to make the whole thing a bit less rubbish


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 21, 2014)

Ok today's the day. I'm going to crack right on in a few minutes. 
Just going to wait for the insurance surveyor to finish checking to see if I have subsidence.  Boy what a fun day. Hospital, bill for thousands of pounds of building work, possible subsidence all topped off with doing my taxes.


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## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Ok today's the day. I'm going to crack right on in a few minutes.
> Just going to wait for the insurance surveyor to finish checking to see if I have subsidence.  Boy what a fun day. Hospital, bill for thousands of pounds of building work, possible subsidence all topped off with doing my taxes.


Just imagine the relief when it's all over.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 21, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Just imagine the relief when it's all over.


You mean when I am dead?


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## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> You mean when I am dead?


No.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm just not in the mood now.


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## TruXta (Jan 21, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I'm just not in the mood now.


What happened to today being the day?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 21, 2014)

TruXta said:


> What happened to today being the day?


Flattened by other burdens. 

Actually I have made a start. Collecting my main invoices is no problem at all. However looking into my PRS payments, I have not been sent my end of year tax statement. Looking back at my emails I have been complaining about this since last May. Almost every reply says I will get it 'next week'. Jeez. 
Luckily I can work it all out from what I have but it's a pain. I can seen that they have not sent me two quarterly statements for the next tax year. They are bloody jokers. My return would be easy if I didn't claim (and have to follow up) my PRS payments every sodding year. I was obviously on the ball this time, complaining from May, but still no sodding result. 

I wouldn't mind if they were huge payments (they used to be pretty damn good and a considerable part of my income), but now it's all you tube and ITV player, and I get about £300 a year FFS.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 21, 2014)

Bah. Just watching adventure time now.

Finn is going to get a new sword, and I can't miss that before it is deleted by CN from you tube.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 21, 2014)

Yeah, that was a good one. Now to pick my daughter up early. I can do my taxes after she is in bed. Yay!


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## rover07 (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm going to tackle mine tonight... maybe. Fuck.


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## Tooter (Jan 21, 2014)

I am thinking about it today. Managed to get the bank to send me all my statements for the tax year for £20 instead of £60! As soon as they turn up ill crack on 

I don't actually mind doing it myself, this will be the third year of doing my own taxes and it's not actually too bad. I just stick some tunes on and drink some tea, usually a productive afternoon


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 21, 2014)

Mine is really only a case of adding up some invoices. I can't_ really _claim for anything this year. Just gathering my PRS has been a ball ache. Now I just have to run through the million and one pointless questions on line, see what I have paid already and what I need to pay in advance mid year.


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## Wilson (Jan 21, 2014)

I've done mine now, confusing as fuck as always, if they investigate then i'll just make sure i'm pissed out of my face and let the dog lick them to death/chew up the paperwork, i'm pretty sure theyre doing far better than they would if i was a tory.


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## scifisam (Jan 24, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Mine is really only a case of adding up some invoices. I can't_ really _claim for anything this year. Just gathering my PRS has been a ball ache. Now I just have to run through the million and one pointless questions on line, see what I have paid already and what I need to pay in advance mid year.



Well, last year really, and I bet you can claim some stuff. Do you not use your computer for work? Your Internet connection? Your heating while you're at home? Etc, etc. Even though you use it for personal use too, part of it definitely is counted as an expense. I mean, if you had an employer and you got to work to find they had no computer for you to use, and no Internet, and no heating, and you need them to be able to work, then you'd be a bit surprised. You provide them to yourself as your own employer.

 If you were PAYE, your employer would be claiming the computers they provided you in the office against expenses, so you should too, with a deduction for personal use.


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## thriller (Jan 25, 2014)

are u lot self employed? I've never done any tax returns.


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## Manter (Jan 25, 2014)

Mine is done! After much fucking around, them telling me I owed them £78k (which stopped my heart for a few seconds I think), an hour on the phone and a bit of swearing, they have decided they owe me £23.07

And I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off me, knowing the bloody thing is done


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## editor (Jan 25, 2014)

Aaaargh!


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## _angel_ (Jan 25, 2014)

did it yesterday, why did I put it off. Now I can start worrying about next years.


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## fredfelt (Jan 25, 2014)

Making good progress


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 25, 2014)

Manter said:


> Mine is done! After much fucking around, them telling me I owed them £78k (which stopped my heart for a few seconds I think), an hour on the phone and a bit of swearing, they have decided they owe me £23.07
> 
> And I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off me, knowing the bloody thing is done



That must have been some pretty impressive swearing...


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## Manter (Jan 25, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> That must have been some pretty impressive swearing...


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## Leafster (Jan 25, 2014)

editor said:


> Aaaargh!


I take it you still haven't got any further than making a nice neat pile of bank statements?

Just take a deep breath and get on with it!


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## cypher79 (Jan 25, 2014)

I did my first one in October. Does this mean I have to do another one already?


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## madamv (Jan 25, 2014)

I will do mine tomorrow.  I hate it as I'm always behind with my payments.  I'm catching up though so I don't feel quite so anxious about it this year. Putting the money away has been hard but its a nice feeling that I have something to actually give them at the end of the month.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 25, 2014)

I did actually put all my earnings into the form last year - all I need to do now is add up the deductions. And find how much I actually paid on account last year which I seem not to have written down for some reason.

Next year is going to be an utter fucking nightmare though - not only have I switched to be full-time PAYE halfway through, one employer insisted on paying tax as if I was full-time for some reason and hasn't come through with a P45 even now over 6 months later (yes I know they are obliged to etc etc).


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## Manter (Jan 25, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I did actually put all my earnings into the form last year - all I need to do now is add up the deductions. And find how much I actually paid on account last year which I seem not to have written down for some reason.
> 
> Next year is going to be an utter fucking nightmare though - not only have I switched to be full-time PAYE halfway through, one employer insisted on paying tax as if I was full-time for some reason and hasn't come through with a P45 even now over 6 months later (yes I know they are obliged to etc etc).


If you get a p46 form and send it to the tax office they'll do some of the calcs when they get it so your new employment starts on the right numbers. Should avoid PAYE   tax being bolloxed   and save someaggro  later


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 25, 2014)

Manter said:


> If you get a p46 form and send it to the tax office they'll do some of the calcs when they get it so your new employment starts on the right numbers. Should avoid PAYE   tax being bolloxed   and save someaggro  later


The new full time employment started on PAYE just after the other one, so they've been paying income tax on some basis, christ knows. And for half of the tax year I was self employed so I'll have to account for that anyway. Hopefully I can get some sort of P45 in to the accounts department of the new place so they can adjust stuff... hold on, they will undoubtedly balls that up won't they... argh.


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## Manter (Jan 25, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The new full time employment started on PAYE just after the other one, so they've been paying income tax on some basis, christ knows. And for half of the tax year I was self employed so I'll have to account for that anyway. Hopefully I can get some sort of P45 in to the accounts department of the new place so they can adjust stuff... hold on, they will undoubtedly balls that up won't they... argh.


Even that post sounds complicated, so yeah, sorry, suspect they will...


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Arrrrrh, still not started mine. 
Today has to be the day as I am working the rest of the week. 

The tea is on. I will have a cuppa before I start.


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## editor (Jan 28, 2014)

So my fucking machine - you know the one that has the only copy of the program I use and all the back ups - refuses to start up. So I've got to start again.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Just watched adventure time again, now I am off for a shower. 

Your tax return is 0% complete.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Your tax return is 1% compleate


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## TruXta (Jan 28, 2014)

Mine is still stuck at 1% too.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

WHat the hell does this mean . . . 



> Our records show that your 2012-13 PAYE Notice of Coding includes an adjustment for tax underpaid. Please complete the following question(s).
> 
> Underpaid tax for earlier years included in your tax code for 2012-13:
> 
> ...


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## EastEnder (Jan 28, 2014)

My accountant filed mine back in December & got me a decent sized refund on overpaid tax.


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## Tooter (Jan 28, 2014)

its amazing the things you can find to do to distract yourself eh? today is the day i hope to make a dent....come on Gaz!


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Hold on, I'm confused. 


> This amount does not take into account any 2012-13 payments on account you may have already made


Obviously I did make a payment on account the year before (my first one) based on what they thought I might earn this year. Can it not calculate this for me and deduct it?


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## colacubes (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> WHat the hell does this mean . . .



We got that when we did the OH's form.  We chose to ignore it


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

So what about the payments on account that I made last year? How do they come off? 
My bill is crippling if I can't get that reduction.


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> WHat the hell does this mean . . .


It means that some tax you owed in an earlier was collected from you by adjusting your PAYE code in 2012/13. Look at the Coding Notices you received for 2012/13 and it should include the figure you need.


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## Manter (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> So what about the payments on account that I made last year? How do they come off?
> My bill is crippling if I can't get that reduction.


you don't get a reduction twice.  So they calculate the tax you owe, and then your payments are offset against it once they've made the calculation.  So you owe a tenner but you've already paid a fiver, not you owe a fiver


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## editor (Jan 28, 2014)

Still opening and closing windows.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Manter said:


> you don't get a reduction twice.  So they calculate the tax you owe, and then your payments are offset against it once they've made the calculation.  So you owe a tenner but you've already paid a fiver, not you owe a fiver



I'm not sure I understand. 
I thought it would take off my statement the amount I already paid in tax on account in advance last year. 
All it mentions of the payments on account is that they are not included (or taken into account). 

Does this happen somewhere later?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Leafster said:


> IT means that some tax you owed in an earlier was collected from you by adjusting your PAYE code in 2012/13. Look at the Coding Notices you received for 2012/13 and it should include the figure you need.



I think the problem is that I don't know what a coding notice is. Why is there no breakdown of what I have to pay and why in the final return?


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I think the problem is that I don't know what a coding notice is. Why is there no breakdown of what I have to pay and why in the final return?


If you earn anything through PAYE in a year your employer is issued with a "PAYE code" so that they can deduct (approximately) the right amount of tax. When HMRC issue your employer with a PAYE Coding Notice they also send you a copy which has a breakdown of how it's calculated. You should have received paper copies but I think you can probably view them online from your HMRC log in. (At least, as an Accountant, I can view all coding notices issued to my clients)


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## lazythursday (Jan 28, 2014)

Oh god oh god oh god. I have done my spreadsheet, apart from travel, cos sorting out loads of manky snot encrusted roached tickets is a task I have to work myself up to. But am terrified of actually logging into the system this year, have a gnawing feeling I reduced payments on account cos of skintness and this is where it bites me in the arse. And no fucker has actually paid me for months so cash flow hell.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

And how come my


Leafster said:


> If you earn anything through PAYE in a year your employer is issued with a "PAYE code" so that they can deduct (approximately) the right amount of tax. When HMRC issue your employer with a PAYE Coding Notice they also send you a copy which has a breakdown of how it's calculated. You should have received paper copies but I think you can probably view them online from your HMRC log in. (At least, as an Accountant, I can view all coding notices issued to my clients)



Er, that is all news to me. I am freelance so never PAYE (that's right isn't it?).
That's why I am here filling in my form.

Just checked. It says I have no coding notices available to review.


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## Manter (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> And how come my
> 
> 
> Er, that is all news to me. I am freelance so never PAYE (that's right isn't it?).
> ...


I think you need to call them if you're struggling.


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> And how come my
> 
> 
> Er, that is all news to me. I am freelance so never PAYE (that's right isn't it?).
> ...


From what you've said before I always thought you were self-employed for your freelance work but when you posted the question above I thought you might have been paid via PAYE for some of it. 

I guess it's the weird HMRC web interface covering all the options and throwing up daft questions. If you have to answer that question then put a nought in it, if not, ignore it as it doesn't apply to you. 

Thank god I have proper software to prepare Tax Returns and don't have to rely on the convoluted interface provided by HMRC!


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## Bakunin (Jan 28, 2014)

Leafster said:


> From what you've said before I always thought you were self-employed for your freelance work but when you posted the question above I thought you might have been paid via PAYE for some of it.
> 
> I guess it's the weird HMRC web interface covering all the options and throwing up daft questions. If you have to answer that question then put a nought in it, if not, ignore it as it doesn't apply to you.
> 
> Thank god I have proper software to prepare Tax Returns and don't have to rely on the convoluted interface provided by HMRC!



For the benefit of those who don't have said software, what software options are there and are there any cheap or freeware versions available?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Leafster said:


> From what you've said before I always thought you were self-employed for your freelance work but when you posted the question above I thought you might have been paid via PAYE for some of it.
> 
> I guess it's the weird HMRC web interface covering all the options and throwing up daft questions. If you have to answer that question then put a nought in it, if not, ignore it as it doesn't apply to you.
> 
> Thank god I have proper software to prepare Tax Returns and don't have to rely on the convoluted interface provided by HMRC!



Well so far I have ignored it. It may have been another issue that I have been paying for separately that has spewed up that weirdness. It does say there are no coding notices so I should be ok to ignore.

My only other question is this payment on account thingy. I only did my first payments on account last year (because I did not earn enough the year before). Surely if I have paid on account, for 2012-2013 in my 2011-2012 return, that amount would come off my 2012-2013 tax bill. Then I make a new (and far more horribly big because I earned more) payment on account for 2013-2014.
Is this not the case?
I mean by the look of the 2012-2013 payments on account I will be making, they will more than cover my entire tax bill for 2013-2014 and I will only have payments on account for 2014-2015 to make


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## lazythursday (Jan 28, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> For the benefit of those who don't have said software, what software options are there and are there any cheap or freeware versions available?


I use FreeAgent.com, which isn't free (£16/month) but does hugely simplify doing your finances once you've set it all up and it does feature some kind of direct filing to HMRC. Unfortunately I only started using it in the current tax year so am stuck with my haphazard home made system this time.


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> For the benefit of those who don't have said software, what software options are there and are there any cheap or freeware versions available?


I only have experience of Tax software sold to Accountants which is designed to handle multiple tax payers simultaneously. I know there are (or were) software packages for individuals but I don't know how good any of them are to recommend them.


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## Manter (Jan 28, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> For the benefit of those who don't have said software, what software options are there and are there any cheap or freeware versions available?


There is a list of approved ones on the front page of the hmrc self assessment website


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Well so far I have ignored it. It may have been another issue that I have been paying for separately that has spewed up that weirdness. It does say there are no coding notices so I should be ok to ignore.
> 
> My only other question is this payment on account thingy. I only did my first payments on account last year (because I did not earn enough the year before). Surely if I have paid on account, for 2012-2013 in my 2011-2012 return, that amount would come off my 2012-2013 tax bill. Then I make a new (and far more horribly big because I earned more) payment on account for 2013-2014.
> Is this not the case?
> I mean by the look of the 2012-2013 payments on account I will be making, they will more than cover my entire tax bill for 2013-2014 and I will only have payments on account for 2014-2015 to make


I'm a bit confused by the way you've referred to the tax years there.

I think what you're saying is that when you submitted your 2012 Tax Return you were asked (for the first time) to make payments on account of your liabilities which will be finalised when you submit your 2013 Tax Return. Those payments on account were made by 31st January 2013 and 31st July 2013. If that's the case, then they will be offset against your total liability for 2013 and you'll only need to pay the balance (if they weren't enough). BUT, at the same time, you may need make a new first payment on account of your 2014 Tax Return which will also need to be paid by 31st January 2014. I don't know how the HMRC website handles it but I'm guessing it either picks up the payments you've already made or you have to put them in yourself. If it's asked you to enter any payments on account you've made for 2013 then put them in. If not, when you get to the end just make sure that somewhere they've been deducted from the calculation. It may be that the way HMRC's website works is that you don't get to see the overall picture until you've entered everything.


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## Manter (Jan 28, 2014)

Leafster said:


> . It may be that the way HMRC's website works that you don't get to see the overall picture until you've entered everything.


 this. As I said, you owe us £10. You've paid £5

Not you owe us £5


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

Manter said:


> this. As I said, you owe us £10. You've paid £5
> 
> Not you owe us £5


Thanks


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Leafster said:


> I'm a bit confused by the way you've referred to the tax years there.
> 
> I think what you're saying is that when you submitted your 2012 Tax Return you were asked (for the first time) to make payments on account of your liabilities which will be finalised when you submit your 2013 Tax Return. Those payments on account were made by 31st January 2013 and 31st July 2013. If that's the case, then they will be offset against your total liability for 2013 and you'll only need to pay the balance (if they weren't enough). BUT, at the same time, you may need make a new first payment on account of your 2014 Tax Return which will also need to be paid by 31st January 2014. I don't know how the HMRC website handles it but I'm guessing it either picks up the payments you've already made or you have to put them in yourself. If it's asked you to enter any payments on account you've made for 2013 then put them in. If not, when you get to the end just make sure that somewhere they've been deducted from the calculation. It may be that the way HMRC's website works is that you don't get to see the overall picture until you've entered everything.



OK well I am not being stupid then, it's just the HMRC website. There does not appear to be a place to add previous payments on account and there is no mention of them being deducted in a breakdown. How frustrating. Obviously it is currently impossible to get in touch with HMRC on line or on the phone today. it all just crashes.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Manter said:


> this. As I said, you owe us £10. You've paid £5
> 
> Not you owe us £5



Yes. I understand that. The trouble is that it does not look as if they have acknowledged that I have paid £5, and there does not look as if there is anywhere for me to add that I have already paid £5.


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Yes. I understand that. The trouble is that it does not look as if they have acknowledged that I have paid £5, and there does not look as if there is anywhere for me to add that I have already paid £5.


I think you should be able to view your "Current Position" or view your "Account" by "Tax Year". Each of these options should allow you to see the payments on account you've made for 2012/13.


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## lazythursday (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Yes. I understand that. The trouble is that it does not look as if they have acknowledged that I have paid £5, and there does not look as if there is anywhere for me to add that I have already paid £5.


The system is terrible. You have to work out what you actually owe yourself... and then of course remember that you also have to pay on account for the next year, and they generally expect this to be half your total bill for the year you're filing... the whole thing is fucking insane and this is making me even more anxious about logging in... and then there's the entirely separate payment system with completely different log in information arrrrrgh.


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## TruXta (Jan 28, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> The system is terrible. You have to work out what you actually owe yourself... and then of course remember that you also have to pay on account for the next year, and they generally expect this to be half your total bill for the year you're filing... the whole thing is fucking insane and this is making me even more anxious about logging in... and then there's the entirely separate payment system with completely different log in information arrrrrgh.


Paying on account = paying tax in advance?


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## lazythursday (Jan 28, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Paying on account = paying tax in advance?


Yep. basically you pay every Jan and July and are paying for the current tax year we're in, and it (sort of) gets settles up every Jan when you file for the previous year's tax. It's an utter nightmare the first time you do it because you have to pay a whole year of tax and half the next year all at once. I think you are exempt if your total tax liability is very low - certainly my partner who only ever pays a few hundred quid has never had to pay on account.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Leafster said:


> I think you should be able to view your "Current Position" or view your "Account" by "Tax Year". Each of these options should allow you to see the payments on account you've made for 2012/13.



I can see the payments that I have made, no problem. 
I have looked back over the form, and it says an automatic calculation of what I have paid on account will be deducted. 
However, when I look at the breakdown it just says. . . . . . (simplified version)
What amount of my earnings I will pay tax on. 
It says that at 20% that = . . . 
Then is says how much of that I have to pay which is exactly the same as the 20% of which I am taxable for. 
There are no further reductions of any sort to the final amount due, and the two payments on account for next year are exactly half of this years amount, so no reduction for previous payments has been made there either. 

Maybe it is best that I just pay what it says at the bottom and clear this all up later and get a refund when things are less busy? 
I earned so little in that first year that the payments on account were only about 2,000 for the whole year.


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## TruXta (Jan 28, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> Yep. basically you pay every Jan and July and are paying for the current tax year we're in, and it (sort of) gets settles up every Jan when you file for the previous year's tax. It's an utter nightmare the first time you do it because you have to pay a whole year of tax and half the next year all at once. I think you are exempt if your total tax liability is very low - certainly my partner who only ever pays a few hundred quid has never had to pay on account.


 How the fuck do people manage that? I'm guessing they don't?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> The system is terrible. You have to work out what you actually owe yourself... and then of course remember that you also have to pay on account for the next year, and they generally expect this to be half your total bill for the year you're filing... the whole thing is fucking insane and this is making me even more anxious about logging in... and then there's the entirely separate payment system with completely different log in information arrrrrgh.



Yes I hate the paying bit, why it can't all be integrated I have no idea. 


I did wonder if I had to make the deduction myself, but the form mentioned (in another section about over payments) that payments on account were not to be added in that section and that they would automatically be calculated in the final section . . . and then they clearly weren't.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm wondering. Do I have to submit it before it tots it up? 

This my be my mistake (even though it does say that it will appear in the summary).


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## Dan U (Jan 28, 2014)

I can't find my sodding paying in slip. Accountant has filed my return for me but need to pay the bloody money. Meh.


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## lazythursday (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I'm wondering. Do I have to submit it before it tots it up?
> 
> This my be my mistake (even though it does say that it will appear in the summary).


I've got a feeling that you may find that tomorrow it has added everything up. I know that one year I just got frustrated with it and so paid exactly what I calculated that I owed, rather than what the system told me. It was all fine. I think I might have got a letter demanding 50p or something.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> I've got a feeling that you may find that tomorrow it has added everything up. I know that one year I just got frustrated with it and so paid exactly what I calculated that I owed, rather than what the system told me. It was all fine. I think I might have got a letter demanding 50p or something.


Well I suppose they can always refund me. I think I need to pay it today really because I have a load of work on for the rest of the week.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 28, 2014)

The final bill doesn't take your previous payment on account into, er, account. (It does include _next_ year's.) You deduct last year's payment on account from the amount you pay this year after the final bill. At least that's what the man at HMRC told me when I asked a couple of years ago.

It means digging back into last year's payments to find out how much that is.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The final bill doesn't take your previous payment on account into, er, account. (It does include _next_ year's.) You deduct last year's payment on account from the amount you pay this year after the final bill. At least that's what the man at HMRC told me when I asked a couple of years ago.
> 
> It means digging back into last year's payments to find out how much that is.



Well that is no problem. I have the figures. 
Just unnecessarily confusing. First it says that I have to pay X by the 31st, then you click on the breakdown and it gives you a different figure to pay by the 31st, (minus the payment on account), so then even though you have the first final figure to pay (X), it's not actually the final figure because you have to deduct what you have already paid on account. 
Even more annoying, that actual figure to pay (X) only comes up before submitting your return. You need to take a screen grab (or add up your amount to pay on account latter) because the final print off you get is minus the amount you need to pay on account by Jan 31st. 

Wankers. 

The thing that is pissing me off now though is that is did say on the form that is would tot up what you have to already paid on account. 
I'll find that bit on the form again and quote it.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

> *Please note:* You do not need to enter any Payments on Account or other payments you have made towards the amount due. You will get credit for them on your statement of account.



I guess they don't mean the 'view your calculation' section.


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## AnnaKarpik (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> WHat the hell does this mean . . .



It either means that you are repaying tax owed via PAYE OR that the tax return system is a pile of shite.
They told me that too and I know for certain sure that it is untrue. So pile of shite it is. Pile of expensive tax-payer funded shite.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

So just to finalise. 
Do I just deduct the two payments on account I made last year from my tax bill for this year, then pay that, plus the first payment on account that I have to pay for this year. 

. . . or considering that they are saying that it would take three working days for the money to transfer, should I just overpay (just in case) and wait for a refund later?


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## lazythursday (Jan 28, 2014)

Do the first. That's exactly what I did last year, and all seemed to work out fine. Don't give them free money to earn interest for ages, ffs. Unless you want to do your bit to fund more public services etc, but they will probably spend it on Trident anyway.


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## editor (Jan 28, 2014)

1% done.


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## _angel_ (Jan 28, 2014)

editor said:


> 1% done.


That's just filling out your name and address!


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## TruXta (Jan 28, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> That's just filling out your name and address!


It's more than that! 

Not much mind you.


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## editor (Jan 28, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> That's just filling out your name and address!


Little acorns etc. In the meantime, I've found a new Windows/Android compatible app to input my millions into. 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.money.manager.ex&hl=en


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jan 28, 2014)

Done and paid. 

Jesus, I'm going to do my next one in advance fo sho.
See if they do update what I have to pay. It's bloody annoying. It's mostly annoying because it could be soooo simple. 
Here is what I earned, here is what I owe, do a breakdown, click here to pay. 

Why the hell it has to go through billpay, then into santander, then to the HMRC. And all the information is there on-line, why is it not linked? WHY!!!


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## Manter (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Done and paid.
> 
> Jesus, I'm going to do my next one in advance fo sho.
> See if they do update what I have to pay. It's bloody annoying. It's mostly annoying because it could be soooo simple.
> ...


Privacy


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## neonwilderness (Jan 28, 2014)

I did mine back in the summer and received notification of my new tax code today.  Thankfully I remembered to tick the option to pay through PAYE as typically I've not bothered setting anything aside for it


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 28, 2014)

I hate going through my receipts - it reminds me how much money I've spent on shite. How can I have so many receipts for comics, cameras and ink?


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## Leafster (Jan 28, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Done and paid.
> 
> Jesus, I'm going to do my next one in advance fo sho.
> See if they do update what I have to pay. It's bloody annoying. It's mostly annoying because it could be soooo simple.
> ...


Well done on getting it sorted! 

You don't have to use the BillPay system which I've just noticed still takes three bloody days to get to HMRC! Not much use for people filing their Returns at the last minute. 

There's a list of methods here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payinghmrc/selfassessment.htm#6

The simplest method is to use your own online banking facility which uses Faster Pay so it'll get there immediately (in most cases)


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## TruXta (Jan 29, 2014)

"Your tax return is 90% complete" 

I don't know what the fuck I'm doing tbh  I submitted all my income and taxes paid, have little else to add to it really, no cap ex, no other income or earnings.

One thing that worried me was that I'd be made to pay half my taxes for the current tax year by Friday, but HMRC aren't asking for that it seems. Can that be right? FYI I only became self-employed January 2013.


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## Tooter (Jan 29, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I only became self-employed January 2013.



So you only have to worry about Jan 2013-April 5th 2013? i'm jealous.. 

43% complete.....getting spanked this year cause of work on the Olympics. Olympic Legacy my arse.....not going to able to pay this tax bill in full this year don't reckon  

yay! financial penalties for not being able to pay tax on time! that makes sense!


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## editor (Jan 29, 2014)

Still at 43% but with added impetus of finishing it tonight so I can go down to a reggae night and get SMASHED and erase all memory of the form filling.


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## colacubes (Jan 29, 2014)

Tooter said:


> So you only have to worry about Jan 2013-April 5th 2013? i'm jealous..
> 
> 43% complete.....getting spanked this year cause of work on the Olympics. Olympic Legacy my arse.....not going to able to pay this tax bill in full this year don't reckon
> 
> yay! financial penalties for not being able to pay tax on time! that makes sense!



If you call them and negotiate they'll probably let you pay it off over the next few months.  But speak to them asap.


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## TruXta (Jan 29, 2014)

Tooter said:


> So you only have to worry about Jan 2013-April 5th 2013? i'm jealous..
> 
> 43% complete.....getting spanked this year cause of work on the Olympics. Olympic Legacy my arse.....not going to able to pay this tax bill in full this year don't reckon
> 
> yay! financial penalties for not being able to pay tax on time! that makes sense!


Yup!


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## lazythursday (Jan 30, 2014)

Right I've done it, but not paid. I am a bit spooked by the BillPay thing taking three days... but I've always used it in the past and done it on the final day and never had any penalties. Going to have to put the lot on a credit card so not much option really. 

This annual exercise has become a sobering reminder of how I am living beyond my means, paying myself a monthly salary which does not appear to correlate strongly enough with actual income. And now is crunch point cos all the savings have gone. I have worked really hard this month to try to start clawing myself out of this hole, but now starting to miss the comfy situation of permanent employment. All you have to do is be there from 9-5, manage the bare minimum and someone does the tax for you.


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## equationgirl (Jan 30, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> Right I've done it, but not paid. I am a bit spooked by the BillPay thing taking three days... but I've always used it in the past and done it on the final day and never had any penalties. Going to have to put the lot on a credit card so not much option really.
> 
> This annual exercise has become a sobering reminder of how I am living beyond my means, paying myself a monthly salary which does not appear to correlate strongly enough with actual income. And now is crunch point cos all the savings have gone. I have worked really hard this month to try to start clawing myself out of this hole, but now starting to miss the comfy situation of permanent employment. All you have to do is be there from 9-5, manage the bare minimum and someone does the tax for you.


So long as it says sent and not rejected for the payment, it'll be fine. As far as I'm concerned I've paid and I have the receipt to prove it.

Must do it earlier next year though.


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## Gerry1time (Jan 30, 2014)

I'd been fair bricking it about this year's tax return. First one I'd done where I was fully freelancing, and given I'm buying my own place right now, couldn't afford for a big chunk of tax payment to be taken on top. Phoned my accountant earlier, he reassured me all would be fine, and having just submitted it, turns out the taxman owes me £2. 

I'll call that a result.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 30, 2014)

I have a feeling I might not have claimed for a £1000 software licence


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## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

I just need to hit send and pay up now.


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## free spirit (Jan 30, 2014)

hmm, apparently I don't owe anything due to the wopping great loss we appear to have made in that tax year. I knew it was a really bad year, but it's a bit scary seeing it down in black and white.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 30, 2014)

FUUUUUCK

tax to pay  approx  2500

i don't have that money!

all due to 
First payment on account for 2013-14£865.06

the thing is  i was unemployed  for  most  of  2013-14  so  i don't think i'll have to pay much tax if any.

there is a bit  about  getting a reduction  but i have no idea  how to fill it  in.


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## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

I just paid up all of mine, was only 800 quid and I'm thanking the heavens I didn't have to pay on account for the current tax year as that would've been a disaster.


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## Thora (Jan 30, 2014)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> FUUUUUCK
> 
> tax to pay  approx  2500
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure you don't have to pay anything on account, or at least not the amount they ask for.


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## Leafster (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> I just paid up all of mine, was only 800 quid and I'm thanking the heavens I didn't have to pay on account for the current tax year as that would've been a disaster.


I think the most I've ever had to tell a client what they needed to pay by 31st January was about £1/2M - I was bricking it having to let them know - all they said was something like "Oh, I knew it would be quite a bit"!


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## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Leafster said:


> I think the most I've ever had to tell a client what they needed to pay by 31st January was about £1/2M - I was bricking it having to let them know - all they said was something like "Oh, I knew it would be quite a bit"!


Fuckers.


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## Leafster (Jan 30, 2014)

TruXta said:


> Fuckers.


At least I knew they'd have no problems paying my fees!


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## TruXta (Jan 30, 2014)

Tru dat.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 30, 2014)

Thora said:


> I'm pretty sure you don't have to pay anything on account, or at least not the amount they ask for.



there is a reduction process it's  just horribly  obtuse  and  i don't  want to click anything  that commits me  to having to cough up 2.5k tommorrow.

due  to my long unemployment  and  parents new mortgage   there is  no  spare cash around.   plus  i'm at work tomorrow.


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## Tooter (Jan 30, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> This annual exercise has become a sobering reminder of how I am living beyond my means, paying myself a monthly salary which does not appear to correlate strongly enough with actual income. And now is crunch point cos all the savings have gone. I have worked really hard this month to try to start clawing myself out of this hole, but now starting to miss the comfy situation of permanent employment. All you have to do is be there from 9-5, manage the bare minimum and someone does the tax for you.



I'm hearing you there, it's the same every January though...full time employment seems attractive because of not having to worry about tax and having a stable income. You forget that also means working min 37 hours, five days a week for someone else. I love having control of my own time and finances. I spend WAY more time doing what I want to do rather than having to go out every day.

Looking through my info was interesting this year, the best year yet. One month I earned five grand but the following couple of months I made £300 per month which is way less than my rent. All in all I've had a good year I guess, but I've not moved anywhere, still stuck giving my money to my landlord and paying big bills. Not managed to save anything or pay for the training courses I want to do  it comes in and goes out!

Not got the money to pay my tax immediately either this year so have made an agreement to pay two big instalments one Monday and one in March. It's going to hurt and I'm really skint but it's done now. 

Like you I'm going to have to give it some deep thought, it's just I've managed to do for the last three years what I always dreamed of doing, I realise I'm very lucky and not many people are in the same situation. The alternative does not look good in the current job market :/ it's brutal out there.


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## ChrisD (Jan 30, 2014)

free spirit said:


> hmm, apparently I don't owe anything due to the wopping great loss we appear to have made in that tax year. I knew it was a really bad year, but it's a bit scary seeing it down in black and white.


I had a bad year too.... accountant says I'll get a refund straight into my bank account.  Anyone know when to expect that happy event?


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## colacubes (Jan 30, 2014)

ChrisD said:


> I had a bad year too.... accountant says I'll get a refund straight into my bank account.  Anyone know when to expect that happy event?



My OH did his 3 weeks ago and got a refund within 3 working days.  I suspect it may take slightly longer given the volume of people doing their return this week but probably not more than a week or 2.


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have a feeling I might not have claimed for a £1000 software licence


Can you amend it?


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2014)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> FUUUUUCK
> 
> tax to pay  approx  2500
> 
> ...


What about the tax-year 2012-2013, which is the one the return is for? Sounds like something has gone wrong with your numbers somewhere if not.


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## TruXta (Jan 31, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What about the tax-year 2012-2013, which is the one the return is for? Sounds like something has gone wrong with your numbers somewhere if not.


I was under the impression that payments on account for the current year is projected based on the previous year's earnings? So if S-S made x two years ago but only 1/3x this year HMRC would still demand a payment on account commensurate with the previous year?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 31, 2014)

i managed  to  take  the numbers down by  finding the bit of the form which allows me  to tell them i made jack shit  in 2013.

now  tax is only  like 1800.   going to see if  i can get  it  taken  out of my paye  or  have some other  payment scheme.


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## lazythursday (Jan 31, 2014)

Tooter said:


> I'm hearing you there, it's the same every January though...full time employment seems attractive because of not having to worry about tax and having a stable income. You forget that also means working min 37 hours, five days a week for someone else. I love having control of my own time and finances. I spend WAY more time doing what I want to do rather than having to go out every day.
> 
> Looking through my info was interesting this year, the best year yet. One month I earned five grand but the following couple of months I made £300 per month which is way less than my rent. All in all I've had a good year I guess, but I've not moved anywhere, still stuck giving my money to my landlord and paying big bills. Not managed to save anything or pay for the training courses I want to do  it comes in and goes out!
> 
> ...


Similarly, I have done just over three years of successfully freelancing - which is quite incredible when I think back to when I was quitting my job and taking what seemed an absurd leap into the unknown. I know that in loads of ways I am lucky to have this amount of freedom and I should stick at it and make it work... it's just this time of year I get the horrors about running out of money and am reminded about my lack of pension, mortgage insurance, etc. I earn around half what I earned in my last job - but the chances of finding another that paid that well in the current climate is zero anyway. And I'm convinced that sooner or later I will hit on the Big Idea that is going to solve everything.


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## TruXta (Jan 31, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> Similarly, I have done just over three years of successfully freelancing - which is quite incredible when I think back to when I was quitting my job and taking what seemed an absurd leap into the unknown. I know that in loads of ways I am lucky to have this amount of freedom and I should stick at it and make it work... it's just this time of year I get the horrors about running out of money and am reminded about my lack of pension, mortgage insurance, etc. I earn around half what I earned in my last job - but the chances of finding another that paid that well in the current climate is zero anyway. And I'm convinced that sooner or later I will hit on the Big Idea that is going to solve everything.


Pensions? YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTH


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 31, 2014)

Trying to ring the repayments line but it just keeps ringing.  Not sure if my phone or them.


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## editor (Jan 31, 2014)

Done and a £400 rebate. Take that, The Man!


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2014)

editor said:


> Done and a £400 rebate. Take that, The Man!


I hate you.


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## editor (Jan 31, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I hate you.


I only got a rebate because I earned fuck all.


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2014)

editor said:


> I only got a rebate because I earned fuck all.


I feel bad now. Sorry


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## free spirit (Jan 31, 2014)

done, and as Bros put it... I owe you nothing wooohoo,,, nothing at all.


well, except a shit load of PAYE I've apparently not paid recently


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## Tooter (Feb 1, 2014)

Argg! stop fucking around with things government!!



> I've just had a bit of a shock when filing my return as I did more invoiced work than anything last year and have got my first ever Class 4 NI bill. Class 4 NI is bundled into your tax payment and so therefore also payable in your "on account payments", so save double in the first year folks as you'll have to pay 50% on account in January 2016 (on top of your payment for 2014/2015) and then 50% again in July 2016.
> 
> Took a lot of searching but I finally found some clarification on an HMRC website. Sorry if you already know this but I've just explained it to some of my colleagues who had no idea and are glad of the heads up so they wont get a shock.
> 
> ...


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## Leafster (Feb 1, 2014)

Tooter said:


> Argg! stop fucking around with things government!!


It's always been that way but often catches people out when they think they'll just have to pay 20% of their "earnings" above the Personal Allowance when in fact for the bulk of the self-employed basic rate payers it's effectively * at 29% (including NI).

* NI threshold's actually lower than the Personal Allowance so kicks in before Income Tax.

It makes sense to get rid of NI and just add the percentage onto Income Tax:

- It would get rid of the problems with those operating Ltd Companies and paying themselves dividends, and

- It's a more transparent approach so everyone knows where the stand.

You'd need to enhance the personal allowance for pensioners etc to make sure they wouldn't be worse off though and those with investment income would end up paying more tax on it (is that such a bad thing?).

The trouble is that everyone focuses on the Income Tax rate and putting it up to 29% would appear to be political suicide even if low and middle income earners didn't pay any more overall!


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 1, 2014)

Note to self: having done and paid your tax is not a reason to then go and spunk all your money on crap you don't need


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## Maurice Picarda (Feb 1, 2014)

I had no idea what my coding notice should have been and so left it blank. They then gave me a whopping rebate. Wonder if the two are connected.


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## AnnaKarpik (Feb 1, 2014)

Leafster said:


> <snip>
> 
> - It would get rid of the problems with those operating Ltd Companies and paying themselves dividends, and
> 
> <snip>



No it wouldn't - we'd need a whole raft of leglislation to prevent directors taking dividends instead of salary


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## Leafster (Feb 1, 2014)

AnnaKarpik said:


> No it wouldn't - we'd need a whole raft of leglislation to prevent directors taking dividends instead of salary


The reason shareholder directors take dividends is to avoid NI. Take NI out of the equation and there's no reason to take dividends instead of salary.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 1, 2014)

managed to call the repayment office.  Guy on the other end  was  cool about it  all   and said  the  situation i was in and  repayment  rate  i had offered  was perfectly reasonable

payed in   250  as  a sign of  my willingness   and offered  a 400-450 a month repayment for 4-5 months.  also pointed out that in april I'd be probably  getting  a bunch of  repayed  paye  as  for the year i'll probably only just hit minimum earnings.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Feb 1, 2014)

also had to pay 130  for  NI.

given my current  take home  that's  a big  slice  but  not  too much


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## AnnaKarpik (Feb 1, 2014)

Leafster said:


> The reason shareholder directors take dividends is to avoid NI. Take NI out of the equation and there's no reason to take dividends instead of salary.


You don't think there is any income tax advantage to taking dividends instead of salary?


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## Leafster (Feb 2, 2014)

AnnaKarpik said:


> You don't think there is any income tax advantage to taking dividends instead of salary?


If we assume we have done away with NI and look in turn at £10,000 chunks of incremental profits which are to be extracted first for a basic rate taxpayer and then a higher rate tax payer the analysis is as follows:

Basic Rate:

Salary route: £10,000 less BR tax =* £8,000 in hand*
Dividend route: £10,000 less CT @20% leaves £8,000 to distribute = *£8,000 in hand *

Higher Rate:

Salary route: £10,000 less 40% tax = *£6,000 in hand*
Dividend route: £10,000 less CT @20% leaves £8,000 to distribute but additional tax to pay via SA is £2,000 * leaving *£6,000 in hand*

* Gross up the dividend by 1/9th £8,000 x 10/9 = £8,889
£8,889 @ 32.5% (Dividend HR) = £2,889
£2,889 less Notional tax credit of £889 leaves £2,000

Admittedly, you don't quite get a match for a £10,000 chunk for Additional Tax Rate payers.

Going back to my original suggestion the biggest problem of doing away with NI is the shortfall to the Treasury. NI is currently the second biggest source of revenue after Income Tax (although VAT's pretty close). Adding (say) 10% onto the basic rate of income tax (to replace the 9% of Employee's NI) would recoup about 40% but how would you recover the 60% which it loses in Employer's contributions? I haven't worked that out!


----------

