# Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

Major incident going on woolwich ,helicopters and armed police everywhere, gunshots, looks like a few people could be dead .


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 22, 2013)

this looks fucking nuts. https://twitter.com/BOYADEE


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 22, 2013)

There is an aggregate of twitter stuff here:
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/10436107.Police_called_to_Woolwich__shooting____live_updates/


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2013)

a friend just linked to this. mental if true.

https://twitter.com/BOYADEE


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

BBC report

Doesn't sound good. Journey home could be interesting


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

killer b said:


> a friend just linked to this. mental if true.
> 
> https://twitter.com/BOYADEE


Holy fuck!


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

The local MP is claiming that a soldier coming from woolwich barracks was ambushed and killed in the street . And it looks like the alleged assailants have been involved in some sort of confrontation with armed police, and may well have been shot .


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

Sky reporting eyewitness as saying that "one of the dead was wearing a Help for Heroes T-shirt".


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Holy fuck!


 
can you translate, seriously...


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

*quietly crosses woolwich off potential places to move to*


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

People at work are calling it 'mayhem' . . . never a good sign


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

*Boya Dee* ‏@*BOYADEE*1h​The two black bredas run this white guy over over then hop out the car and start chopping mans head off with machete!!


----------



## Ted Striker (May 22, 2013)

Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3

Shouldn't, but


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> Sky reporting eyewitness as saying that "one of the dead was wearing a Help for Heroes T-shirt".


 
the local mp claims he has been told by both police and army commanders that guy was a soldierfrom the local barracks .


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3
> 
> Shouldn't, but


love to know what the other two are!!


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 22, 2013)

> Julia Wilders, 51, of Charles Grinling Walk, Woolwich said: “I saw some blokes trying to resuscitate another man on the floor.
> “We walked down to have a look and we saw a black bloke walking up there with a gun.
> “Another bloke had two meat cleavers in his hand.
> “A response team turned up.
> ...


 

WTF


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> *quietly crosses woolwich off potential places to move to*


I always tell people it's got a much worse reputation than it deserves! Not sure that'll wash now... (Though I'd maintain that this and the riots were two exceptional cases, never really feel under threat or in danger when I'm walking round town, even in the wee hours)

Now being covered live on the BBC website


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

A couple of my twitter friends pissing themselves at white journalists attempting to read out Boyadee's tweets without their accent slipping.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3
> 
> Shouldn't, but


I know, does make you wonder what the other two are!


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2013)

> Witness to Woolwich stabbing tells @*lbc973* that after 2 men hacked 3rd man to death, they asked onlookers to take their photograph.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630303


----------



## RedDragon (May 22, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3
> 
> Shouldn't, but





> These times i was just going to the shop for some fruit and veg and i see all that!


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

If Boyadee goes on the media, then the U.S hegemony of laughing at black men reporting crimes they have witnessed to the media will be broken, as we get our own black guy to laugh at. About time too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> Sky reporting eyewitness as saying that "one of the dead was wearing a Help for Heroes T-shirt".


 
Good riddance then.


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

theres other witnesses claiming the armed cops didnt arrive for almost 20 minutes, which could mean these guys made no attempt to flee the scene . Sounds nuts .


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> *Boya Dee* ‏@*BOYADEE*
> 1h​
> The two black bredas run this white guy over over then hop out the car and start chopping mans head off with machete!!


He seems the most descriptive of all the Twitter reports.


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Good riddance then.


 
you for real?


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2013)

When I first saw the BBC and Sky simply report that someone "had been attacked" in Woolwich but still made that the top news I thought there was going to be some nasty details involved. It sounds fucking grim so far


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

It sounds planned from the target to the action to the reaction if the outlines above are accurate. Am i really the only one thinking about muslim/political radicals here? I can't be.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> you for real?


 
It's the internet, who cares?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 22, 2013)

> The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has been made aware by Metropolitan Police Service of an incident in Woolwich, south London. IPCC investigators have been deployed to the scene and to the post-incident process.
> The IPCC has declared this as an independent investigation.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It sounds planned from the target to the action to the reaction if the outlines above are accurate. Am i really the only one thinking about muslim/political radicals here? I an't be.


 
I'd be surprised that the news aren't already hinting at this. Plus a machete really isn't the weapon of choice for terrorists I don't think.



Casually Red said:


> theres other witnesses claiming the armed cops didnt arrive for almost 20 minutes, which could mean these guys made no attempt to flee the scene . Sounds nuts .


 
I know. Strange.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It sounds planned from the target to the action to the reaction if the outlines above are accurate. Am i really the only one thinking about muslim/political radicals here? I an't be.


Certainly going for the cops after fits with that, though on something spectacular too as well i suppose.


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

That was fucking quick. Someone's got the Jean Charles shakes about the whole thing.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Reports saying two guys attacked one guy, but also 1 dead, 2 injured, 1 seriously injured  Are they just saying that one of the two people injured was seriously injured, or are they reporting on four different people, in which case, who's the fourth person?


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Certainly going for the cops after fits with that, though on something spectacular too as well i suppose.


Then again, lots of early doors stuff turns out to be rubbish.


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It sounds planned from the target to the action to the reaction if the outlines above are accurate. Am i really the only one thinking about muslim/political radicals here? I an't be.


 
thats exactly what im thinking

along with an attempt at martyrdom by not even bothering to leg it afterwards . Looks that way to me . Just 2 minutes from woolwich barracks .


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> ... Plus a machete really isn't the weapon of choice for terrorists I don't think.
> 
> ...


Maybe Internet-inspired freelancers. Entirely different context i know, but Islamists in Xinjiang year or so back drove van into a bunch of PAP squaddies out for their morning run in formation then leapt out and went for as many as they could with cleavers.


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2013)

If so, EDL are going to have a fucking field day.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Then again, lots of early doors stuff turns out to be rubbish.


Yep, speculation only of course.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

deliberate 'death by cop' is rare here though isn't it?


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It sounds planned from the target to the action to the reaction if the outlines above are accurate. Am i really the only one thinking about muslim/political radicals here? I an't be.


Hard to call but I admit it sounds as though they weren't bothered about the publicity. Normally gang stuff isn't so public.


8115 said:


> I'd be surprised that the news aren't already hinting at this. Plus a machete really isn't the weapon of choice for terrorists I don't think.
> 
> 
> 
> I know. Strange.


Dunno, beheadings with machete's are pretty popular on video.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

T & P said:


> If so, EDL are going to have a fucking field day.


 
Fuck 'em.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> If Boyadee goes on the media, then the U.S hegemony of laughing at black men reporting crimes they have witnessed to the media will be broken, as we get our own black guy to laugh at. About time too.


 
Laugh _with_, I though


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> theres other witnesses claiming the armed cops didnt arrive for almost 20 minutes, which could mean these guys made no attempt to flee the scene . Sounds nuts .


 
Crack.


----------



## bi0boy (May 22, 2013)

Seems the cops didn't kill either of them. I suppose if they'd been armed with chair legs rather than a gun and a knife they'd be dead for sure.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

T & P said:


> If so, EDL are going to have a fucking field day.


 
Shame they didn't go after the EDL.



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Crack.


Nah, or it would happen all the time in Nottingham.


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> Laugh _with_, I though



At. There's a whole series of memes about the lol worthy black guy talking to the media. Depressingly.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> deliberate 'death by cop' is rare here though isn't it?


 
Rarer than some places, still not rare enough. The problem is not so much the number of people killed by cops but the repeated failure to bring the coppers responsible for unlawful killings to account.


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> I'd be surprised that the news aren't already hinting at this. Plus a machete really isn't the weapon of choice for terrorists I don't think.
> 
> .


 
Its perfect for a beheading, which some Islamic types are well into . And if you see some of the piss poor stuff the British ones end up attempting to do its the type of scenario that could easily happen .



> I know. Strange


 
not strange at all . To behead a British soldier in broad daylight,  hang around for armed police to arrive, and then attack armed police with machetes is suicidal . A beheading of a soldier followed by an attempt at martyrdom, 2 guys allegedly telling onlookers to take their photos ..wanting to be famous . Points one direction in my view .


----------



## marty21 (May 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Its perfect for a beheading, which some Islamic types are well into . And if you see some of the piss poor stuff the British ones end up attempting to do its the type of scenario that could easily happen .
> 
> 
> 
> not strange at all . To behead a British soldier in broad daylight, hang around for armed police to arrive, and then attack armed police with machetes is suicidal . A beheading of a soldier followed by an attempt at martyrdom, 2 guys allegedly telling onlookers to take their photos ..wanting to be famous . Points one direction in my view .


 very strange - but there would have been people taking pictures anyway - they wouldn't need to be asked


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

You'd think if they were Islamic terrorists they'd have the fucking nous to do some relevant messaging no?


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You'd think if they were Islamic terrorists they'd have the fucking nous to do some relevant messaging no?


They should have posted on Twitter?


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You'd think if they were Islamic terrorists they'd have the fucking nous to do some relevant messaging no?


 
Anyone would think you had to be really stupid to become a suicidal Islamic terrorist.


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Crack.


 
the thought crossed my mind , but as it looks like the only people theyve attacked either belong to the British army or police they sound like very discriminating crack heads


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> At. There's a whole series of memes about the lol worthy black guy talking to the media. Depressingly.


 
I saw Reddit discussing it - they are generally on the side of what is good and right


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Its perfect for a beheading, which some Islamic types are well into . And if you see some of the piss poor stuff the British ones end up attempting to do its the type of scenario that could easily happen .
> 
> 
> 
> not strange at all . To behead a British soldier in broad daylight, hang around for armed police to arrive, and then attack armed police with machetes is suicidal . A beheading of a soldier followed by an attempt at martyrdom, 2 guys allegedly telling onlookers to take their photos ..wanting to be famous .* Points one direction in my view .*


 
CRACK


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Reports saying two guys attacked one guy, but also 1 dead, 2 injured, 1 seriously injured  Are they just saying that one of the two people injured was seriously injured, or are they reporting on four different people, in which case, who's the fourth person?


 
I think it means 1 dead, And two injured(the attackers) and one of the injured is serious.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Right, I'm off home then. Might go through Plumstead rather than Woolwich tonight


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> the thought crossed my mind , but as it looks like the only people theyve attacked either belong to the British army or police they sound like very discriminating crack heads


 
RTA, squaddie gets arsey, crackheads jump out and gets choppy...

Possibly.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

tbf if I was going to go and hack someone's head off with a machete I'd probably take crack, even if I'd never done it before. Or PCP.


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> They should have posted on Twitter?


 I meant shout some slogans or whatever - make it know what they were up to.


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Shame they didn't go after the EDL.


 
So you support murder by religious extremists on EDL? You would side with the extremists on this point?


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> You'd think if they were Islamic terrorists they'd have the fucking nous to do some relevant messaging no?


That can be planned to come after, I suppose. We shall see.


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> CRACK


 

nobody else attacked on a busy street ,only soldier and cops some time later, doesnt sound like crack rampage  to me .


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> I meant shout some slogans or whatever - make it know what they were up to.


 
Allah Akbar?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> I think it means 1 dead, And two injured(the attackers) and one of the injured is serious.


Yeah, that's what I'm going with, just slightly ambiguous reporting.


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> That can be planned to come after, I suppose. We shall see.


Sure. Wait and see indeed. Fucking horrible tragedy either way.


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> Allah Akbar?


Allah_*u*_ akbar.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> RTA, squaddie gets arsey, crackheads jump out and gets choppy...
> 
> Possibly.


 
Stranger things have happened.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Allah_*u*_ akbar.


 
my apologies  not something I ever intend to use personally.


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> my apologies  not something I ever intend to use personally.


No probs.


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> RTA, squaddie gets arsey, crackheads jump out and gets choppy...
> 
> Possibly.


 
any reports ive seen say the squaddie was on foot, rammed by car first . Sounds more like an ambush right outside the barracks .


----------



## telbert (May 22, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Good riddance then.


 

 Stupid fucking cunt.


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

Machete don't tweet


----------



## xenon (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It sounds planned from the target to the action to the reaction if the outlines above are accurate. Am i really the only one thinking about muslim/political radicals here? I can't be.



No, I thought same based on report on 5 Live. Seems the Help For Heros guy was ran over. The 2 Occupants of the car got out and chopped him to death with a machetti / machettis. Then waited at the scene for Police to respond.
Armed Police turn up. The 2 asailents threaten them, possibly charged at them and are shot. Status unknown.

The reporter did stress this was what they'd gathered at the time but may not be entirely accurate.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> any reports ive seen say the squaddie was on foot, rammed by car first . Sounds more like an ambush right outside the barracks .


 
RTA can be car vs. pedestrian too.

I really have no more idea than you. But 2 cracked up wankers with knives and guns run in to someone, that someone protests robustly, cracknuts go loopy. Sounds more than possible. (was goona say reasonable, but thought better of it )


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> tbf if I was going to go and hack someone's head off with a machete I'd probably take crack, even if I'd never done it before. Or PCP.


 
jihadists going into battle are well known to get off their tits on various opiates first


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

how do we know the dead guy is a soldier? was he in uniform or something (I may have missed that bit)?


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

D'wards said:


> So you support murder by religious extremists on EDL? You would side with the extremists on this point?


It's more of a philosophical response. If you were told that one of the two people in front of you had to be killed and you could pick between an EDL supporter and a serving soldier which would you pick?

Clearly it's not ok to go killing people in the street for religious or any other reasons, but assuming that someone was going to be killed I would prefer it if it meant one less EDL, yes.



krink said:


> how do we know the dead guy is a soldier? was he in uniform or something (I may have missed that bit)?


Police are claiming it wasn't, but it sounds like he could have been mistaken for one, being near a barracks and wearing a 'Help for Heroes' shirt.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> jihadists going into battle are well known to get off their tits on various opiates first


 
I didn't know that, but I guess they feel like I do, that they need _something_


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> how do we know the dead guy is a soldier? was he in uniform or something (I may have missed that bit)?


 
Confirmed by the MoD.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Machete don't tweet


They need the new iMachete.


----------



## Casually Red (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> how do we know the dead guy is a soldier? was he in uniform or something (I may have missed that bit)?


 
the local MP has given a number of interviews claiming that hes been told this by both the local police commander and the barracks commander . He was killed just 2 minutes away from the barracks entrance . Looks pretty certain he was .


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

people seem to be remonstrating with each other..


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

The eyewitness on R4 is saying the assailants were both black.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> The eyewitness on R4 is saying the assailants were both black.


 
ooh quick let's accuse them of being crackheads.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

i've seen two witness statements saying theyu heard he was a soldier and the mp's statement. haven't seen the mod statement you got a link please cdg?


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

> One witness, identified as James, said he and his partner saw two black men attack a young man aged around 20 in a Help for Heroes T-shirt with kitchen knives like he was "a piece of meat".
> He told LBC Radio: "They were hacking at this poor guy, literally.
> "They were hacking at him, chopping him, cutting him.
> "These two guys were crazed. They were just animals. They dragged him from the pavement and dumped his body in the middle of the road and left his body there."
> ...


 
from News Shopper, awful awful..


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> ooh quick let's accuse them of being crackheads.


 
I haven't accused anyone of being a crackhead  I said _I_ would like to be on crack if I was going to do that


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> jihadists going into battle are well known to get off their tits on various opiates first


I'm assuming that would be for the analgesic effect?  As opposed the bezerker potential of PCP etc.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> I haven't accused anyone of being a crackhead  I said _I_ would like to be on crack if I was going to do that


No you wouldn't, you would probably like a fair whack of opiates and alcohol to be fair.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> ooh quick let's accuse them of being crackheads.


 
You may equate black with crack. Me, I've seen enough wankers of all creeds on crack to know better. The actions thusfar described though are consistent with crackhead tossbags.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> No you wouldn't, you would probably like a fair whack of opiates and alcohol to be fair.


 
I'd be open to pretty much anything except ket tbh


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> people seem to be remonstrating with each other..


I found that photo very odd.  A crowd of people standing around arguing over an injured/dead person, two in hi-viz but none immediately apparent as police/medics...


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> I haven't accused anyone of being a crackhead  I said _I_ would like to be on crack if I was going to do that


 
I think it was Bahnhof Strasse who started the 'crack's a helluva drug' stuff. Mob him.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> i've seen two witness statements saying theyu heard he was a soldier and the mp's statement. haven't seen the mod statement you got a link please cdg?


 
Sorry, I thought I had seen that on the BBC.  My mistake.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

the two on the far left body look like LAS, none of the others are. The HEMS team landed in the playground but they wear bright orange jumpsuits.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> I found that photo very odd. A crowd of people standing around arguing over an injured/dead person, two in hi-viz but none immediately apparent as police/medics...


 
Reports saying OB took 20 mins...hence such chaos?

Doubt they'd have taken so long in Mayfair.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> I found that photo very odd. A crowd of people standing around arguing over an injured/dead person, two in hi-viz but none immediately apparent as police/medics...


They don't need medics. They're dead.


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> It's more of a philosophical response. If you were told that one of the two people in front of you had to be killed and you could pick between an EDL supporter and a serving soldier which would you pick?
> 
> Clearly it's not ok to go killing people in the street for religious or any other reasons, but assuming that someone was going to be killed I would prefer it if it meant one less EDL, yes


 
I see, i thought you were advocating extremists murdering people in general, and supporting them Team America style.

All cleared up now.

Sounds like they asked eyewitnesses to film them whilst they waited for the polis to turn up


----------



## RedDragon (May 22, 2013)

An actual Met Tweet 


> *Metropolitan Police* ‏@*MetPoIiceUK*6m​When in a crisis situation it is important not to lose your head #*woolwich*


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> I found that photo very odd. A crowd of people standing around arguing over an injured/dead person, two in hi-viz but none immediately apparent as police/medics...


 
Check out them boots - they're building trade.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> They don't need medics. They're dead.


 
not until the medic says so.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> I found that photo very odd. A crowd of people standing around arguing over an injured/dead person, two in hi-viz but none immediately apparent as police/medics...


To be fair the OB look busy in the background with the other two on the floor.



wiskey said:


> not until the medic says so.


Don't need a medic to tell you that someone missing a head is beyond help.


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> I found that photo very odd. A crowd of people standing around arguing over an injured/dead person, two in hi-viz but none immediately apparent as police/medics...


 Plus on theradio they siad they hacked at him like they were trying to remove his organs, and then dragged the body into the road, but you'd still expect a bit of blood about


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Reports saying OB took 20 mins...hence such chaos?
> 
> Doubt they'd have taken so long in Mayfair.


Armed did I think, but standard beat cops are already on scene in that photo, flooring the two attackers in the background.

Seems odd they left the victim completely though.  Possibly they grabbed a couple of people and asked them to make sure no one touched the body whilst they dealt with the attackers, if they needed the numbers?


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Don't need a medic to tell you that someone missing a head is beyond help.


 
no but you aren't 'dead' or beyond help until a medic decides it.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)




----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Plus on theradio they siad they hacked at him like they were trying to remove his organs, and then dragged the body into the road, but you'd still expect a bit of blood about


Have you got enough tin foil for a hat or should you be going to the shop now?


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Reports saying OB took 20 mins...hence such chaos?
> 
> Doubt they'd have taken so long in Mayfair.


 
Mayfair is within the Government Zone, armed plod are much closer.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

maybe the two lads in the hi vis were in that big lorry that's parked up?


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> An actual Met Tweet


 
*Metropolitan Police*​ 
*@MetPoIiceU*edit: it's a parody account, you muppet ​


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


>



do I want to view that?


----------



## stupid kid (May 22, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Plus on theradio they siad they hacked at him like they were trying to remove his organs, and then dragged the body into the road, but you'd still expect a bit of blood about


 

Check the news shopper feed. Scroll down a bit. You can see they were dragging the body...


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> An actual Met Tweet


Sure it is.

And they've also tweeted:



> Brighton Police have said that the badly burnt body found on the golf course has been identified as a homeless man... No big issue then.


 


> An ice cream man has been found lying on the floor of his van covered with hundreds and thousands. Police say that he topped himself.


 


> Israeli man dies from poisoned meal. Police suspect it was a hummus side.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> They don't need medics. They're dead.


Think you kinda missed the point there.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> do I want to view that?


TBH you don't see anyone go down but it does explain what was happening in the pic we were discussing a bit better. No medic were on scene, and while the police who had arrived were busy shooting/attending to the attackers and making sure they wre down several members of the public ran over to where the dead white guy was and started checking on him/discussing the incident, including the hi-viz blokies. 

You can see the helicopter arriving in the background towards the end.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It sounds planned from the target to the action to the reaction if the outlines above are accurate. Am i really the only one thinking about muslim/political radicals here? I can't be.


 
That or "drug wars".


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Have you got enough tin foil for a hat or should you be going to the shop now?


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

D'wards said:


>


'There's not much blood' etc.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

wiskey said:


> do I want to view that?


 
there's nothing graphic at all in the video though what you can hear sounds like the cops shouting at the attackers.


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> 'There's not much blood' etc.


 well there isn't - you would expect there to be if a man was beheaded - we've all seen Kill Bill


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

Being treated as "terrorist related" according to SKY.


----------



## stupid kid (May 22, 2013)

D'wards said:


> well there isn't - you would expect there to be if a man was beheaded - we've all seen Kill Bill


 
graphic(ish) pic of blood trail


Spoiler


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

D'wards said:


> well there isn't - you would expect there to be if a man was beheaded - we've all seen Kill Bill


Killed and then dragged into the street - the blood is probably where they killed him. Pretty sure you would bleed out pretty fast through an open neck, not that this would be your biggest concern at that point.


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

(People will love this)

Eyewitness on the radio now saying they looked like drugdealers in a "drugdealers car" (tinted windows etc)


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

stupid kid said:


>


 
Gawd blimey


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Being treated as "terrorist related" according to SKY.


 
How are they spinning that?!


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Being treated as "terrorist related" according to SKY.


I expect that would be the default position given the victim's job and the proximity to the barracks.  Doesn't mean much at this stage though tbh.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> Gawd blimey


That's less than I thought tbh - was always taught that 1 pint of blood covers about a square metre.


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> How are they spinning that?!


 
Dunno. From what I can gather though it seems like it could be credible.

Emergency COBRA meeting being called by the government etc.,


----------



## DotCommunist (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Machete don't tweet


 

i'm in trouble deep


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

stupid kid said:


> graphic(ish) pic of blood trail
> 
> 
> Spoiler


 Well that clarifies it


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> How are they spinning that?!


 
It's possible. COBRA meeting over it. Crack pipes in Downing St no doubt.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2013)

Far right are starting to get excited and wave their willies about on FB


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

"Soft target, low level, terrorist attack by home grown/freelance jihadi's" is what's being muted at the moment.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> That's less than I thought tbh - was always taught that 1 pint of blood covers about a square metre.


Yeah...  A Southampton street was closed off a few weeks ago as police investigated what they thought was a murder, as the street was covered in blood.  They found a guy drunk and asleep round the corner, who'd fallen over, split his lip, and had a nosebleed.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Pfft, jihadi my fat arse. Suppose we'll see


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> "Soft target, low level, terrorist attack by home grown jihadi's" is what's being muted at the moment.


They're keeping it quiet?


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

Now they say police evacuating local buildings and are going to do a controlled explosion on their car


----------



## DJ Squelch (May 22, 2013)

I used to live next to where this happened, in the old Thomas Spencer block.


----------



## spanglechick (May 22, 2013)

Comments on the huffington post article are just relentless vile racism. Amazed we don't have a ukip/edl govt already.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

"Allah Akbar shouted"


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

It's breaking news all over SKY News.


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

EDL promising a response whatever the identity of the attackers.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

OH, I'm just reading this thread and mushing the keyboard.


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

Nick Robinson is stating his sources say "that the attackers were of Muslim appearance" that they shouted out "alluhu akhbar", he then went on to say police believe they filmed themselves carrying out the act..


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> "Allah Akbar shouted"


Well if he was there as well it's open and shut.
Sorry


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

Huge pinch of salt to all reports at this point, IMO.  Eyewitnesses are shit.


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2013)

Judging by the video posted earlier the person on the ground on that photograph would seem one of the attackers to me, rather than the victim. Which would explain why there was of a group of people arguing/ discussing something over his body.


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

Corax

Yes, Jean Charles comes to mind.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> Huge pinch of salt to all reports at this point, IMO. Eyewitnesses are shit.


 
1744:  Nick Robinson Political editor
This is being treated as a serious terrorist attack by *Islamist* extremists on the streets of *Britain.*


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> Nick Robinson is stating his sources say "that the attackers were of Muslim appearance" that they shouted out "alluhu akhbar", he then went on to say police believe they filmed themselves carrying out the act..


 
BOYADEE said they were black and he was there


----------



## bi0boy (May 22, 2013)

Don't panic everyone, Theresa May is convening a COBRA meeting.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> "Allah Akbar shouted"


 
What did he say?


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

FUck you guys, I'm going home to watch proper news :v-sign:


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Don't panic everyone, Theresa May is convening a COBRA meeting.


 
Take that Gove!


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> 1744: Nick Robinson Political editor
> This is being treated as a serious terrorist attack by *Islamist* extremists on the streets of *Britain.*


So?


----------



## Red Storm (May 22, 2013)

EDL:



> ****CONFIRMED WE HAVE BEEN SUBJECT TO A TERROR ATTACK BY ISLAM, WE ARE CURRENTLY UNDER ATTACK****


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> What did he say?


 
Said he was off for a pint.


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> 1744: Nick Robinson Political editor
> This is being treated as a serious terrorist attack by *Islamist* extremists on the streets of *Britain.*


 
24 hours news can be very dangerous, this declaration could have unwanted effects.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> So?


 
Do you really need to ask that?


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

Robinson's said they were 'of muslim appearance'.

How in giddy fuck?


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Said he was off for a pint.


 
And a bacon and egg sandwich I guess.


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Robinson's said they were 'of muslim appearance'.
> 
> How in giddy fuck?


 
Jesus


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Don't panic everyone, Theresa May is convening a COBRA meeting.


 
Cabinet Office BRiefing room A.

Just looked it up!


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> So?


They've got the country it occurred in right at least.


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Crack.


 
I thought that before I thought terrorism, I didn't terrorism until I saw BA's post


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> And a bacon and egg sandwich I guess.


 
No bacon. That's against his own teachings.


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

in London, there are ethnicities of everything under the sun, how could eye witnesses know they were 'muslim'


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No bacon. That's against his own teachings.


 
So is having a pint.


----------



## xes (May 22, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> EDL:




*gets elastic band gun and peeks out from behind curtains*


----------



## bi0boy (May 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> in London, there are ethnicities of everything under the sun, how could eye witnesses know they were 'muslim'


 
Maybe the Allah hu Akhbars did it.


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Cabinet Office BRiefing room A.
> 
> Just looked it up!


 
Cabinet Unity Negotiation Team already used for the coalition


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> So is having a pint.


 
No it's not you div.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> Comments on the huffington post article are just relentless vile racism. Amazed we don't have a ukip/edl govt already.


"sunshine boys"


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No it's not you div.


 
Isn't it?


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Do you really need to ask that?


I was giving you the chance to explain your post.

But if you don't want to take it, I'll assume that you believe that because a journalist has said something, and the immediate official response assumes something, then you believe with absolute 100% certainty that it must be true.

Sorry to hear that you've never seen the news or followed any current events before.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> Isn't it?


 
No.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

i think the early reports mentioned the words 'soldier' 'beheading' 'machete' and this has clearly influenced much of the muslim terror speculation.


----------



## bi0boy (May 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> people seem to be remonstrating with each other..


 


Corax said:


> I found that photo very odd. A crowd of people standing around arguing over an injured/dead person, two in hi-viz but none immediately apparent as police/medics...


 
I'm guessing the guy in the grey top is a cop, because he's standing over the body after it's been covered up.


----------



## twistedAM (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Robinson's said they were 'of muslim appearance'.
> 
> How in giddy fuck?


 
How the fuck has that knobhead still got a job? BBC News really is full of twats.
I'm watching Sky and it's a bad state of affairs when I have to do that in preference to the national broadcaster.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No.


 

Well that's a new one to me.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> i think the early reports mentioned the words 'soldier' 'beheading' 'machete' and this has clearly influenced much of the muslim terror speculation.


But COBRA are meeting!  And *Nick Robinson* said so!!!!


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> I was giving you the chance to explain your post.
> 
> But if you don't want to take it, I'll assume that you believe that because a journalist has said something, and the immediate official response assumes something, then you believe with absolute 100% certainty that it must be true.
> 
> Sorry to hear that you've never seen the news before.


 
I listen to the news alot, and I am able to recognise when the state latches onto the concept of the assination of a member of the armed forces by Muslim 'terrorists'. This has legs, and the fact that the state media are ramping it _is significant._


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> I listen to the news alot, and I am able to recognise when the state latches onto the concept of the assination of a member of the armed forces by Muslim 'terrorists'. This has legs, and the fact that the state media are ramping it _is significant._


And what the giddy fuck do you think the response so far is based on brogdale?


Corax said:


> Huge pinch of salt to all reports at this point, IMO. Eyewitnesses are shit.


Pinch of salt does not mean 'wrong', by the way.  Google it if needs be.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> I listen to the news alot, and I am able to recognise when the state latches onto the concept of the assination of a member of the armed forces by Muslim 'terrorists'. This has legs, and the fact that the state media are ramping it _is significant._


 
So what makes you think it's not true?


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

I bet Julian Assange is wondering whether he'll ever get to be centre of attention again


----------



## Sweet FA (May 22, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Don't panic everyone, Theresa May is convening a COBRA meeting.


Thank fuck. Now we'll get this shit sorted. 

"You're the disease and I'm the cure."


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> Thank fuck. Now we'll get this shit sorted.
> 
> "You're the disease and I'm the cure."


 Bah, was just about to post this


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

> Commander Simon Letchford, speaking in Woolwich tonight, said:
> "I am here to give you an update about the incident that has unfolded here in Woolwich this afternoon and to give you further details of the situation and an outline of the facts as we understand them at this time.
> "This is at a very early stage and as such I will provide you with what information I am able to.
> "At approx 1420 we were called to reports of an assault in John Wilson Street, Woolwich where one man was being assaulted by two other men.  "
> ...



http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/10436107.Police_called_to_Woolwich__shooting____live_updates/


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> "Allah Akbar shouted"


I. was. joking!


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> And what the giddy fuck do you think the response so far is based on brogdale?
> 
> Pinch of salt does not mean 'wrong', by the way. Google it if needs be.


 
Not sure I'm getting your point tbh. I know no more than anyone else watching this emerge. But...if the state feels it has a (gruesome) execution of a soldier the fall-out will be significant.


----------



## ddraig (May 22, 2013)

DJ Squelch said:


> I used to live next to where this happened, in the old Thomas Spencer block.


me too!


----------



## DotCommunist (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> But COBRA are meeting! And *Nick Robinson* said so!!!!


 

Nick Robinson, the liar of lindsay and all round slapheaded tory fuckwit


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 22, 2013)

So after 7 pages of shite, does anyone know what happened yet?


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So after 7 pages of shite, does anyone know what happened yet?


1 person dead, the attackers in hospital. That's it really.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So after 7 pages of shite, does anyone know what happened yet?


 
An excuse to infringe yet more civil liberities...perhaps?


----------



## Firky (May 22, 2013)

Been out all afternoon and just heard about this on Facebook.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So after 7 pages of shite, does anyone know what happened yet?


 
A man wearing a bobble hat chopped somebody's head off and his friend took pictures. Fact.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> 1 person dead, the attackers in hospital. That's it really.


 

Glad someone knows.


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Glad someone knows.


What's the point you're trying to make here?


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

a man is dead and two others injured. dead man killed in some kind of attack and armed police shot the other two people.


----------



## xes (May 22, 2013)

I don't think brogdale is saying that this didn't happen, or that how it went down is any different to what's actually been reported, it's just the response that the media will have, will take the form of spin, and use this to further some agenda of some kind. This isn't really an outlandish statement IMO.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What's the point you're trying to make here?


 

No point whatsoever.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

TruXta said:


> What's the point you're trying to make here?


 
Theme of the thread.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Not sure I'm getting your point tbh. I know no more than anyone else watching this emerge. But...if the state feels it has a (gruesome) execution of a soldier the fall-out will be significant.


Quite simple.

I opined that all should be taken with a pinch of salt at this stage (terrorists/muslims/alluh akbhar/etc) as eyewitnesses are notoriously shite. In addition, early reports of dramatic events such as this are almost _always_ fairly flawed as people get overexcited and speculation gets confused with fact.

You replied by saying that Nick Robinson had tweeted that it is:


> being treated as a serious terrorist attack by Islamist extremists on the streets of Britain.


apparently also going to the trouble of bolding 'Islamist' (and also 'Britain' for some reason...   )

Which was either a totally random non-sequiteur, or intended as some sort of refutation of my point.

Which it's not.

Hope that clarifies!


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So after 7 pages of shite, does anyone know what happened yet?


 
Post #2

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/did-cops-just-shoot-2-dead-in-woolwich.310684/#post-12256257


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3
> 
> Shouldn't, but


 
According to the BBC news, two men of Muslim appearance have hacked a British soldier to death, and filmed the event. They were also heard to shout 'Allah Akbar'.

Forgive me if I don't share in your .


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> Quite simple.
> 
> I opined that all should be taken with a pinch of salt at this stage (terrorists/muslims/alluh akbhar/etc) as eyewitnesses are notoriously shite. In addition, early reports of dramatic events such as this are almost _always_ fairly flawed as people get overexcited and speculation gets confused with fact.
> 
> ...


 
Bolding courtesy of the BBC. I think you're barking up the wrong tree tbh.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Bolding courtesy of the BBC. I think you're barking up the wrong tree tbh.


The bolding's not important.  I think you're wriggling tbh.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2013)

Whatever happened, if the eye witness accounts are correct, it must have been a stomach-churning attack to watch.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Good riddance then.


 
Are you intending to join the human race at some point?


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2013)

editor said:


> Whatever happened, if the eye witness accounts are correct, it must have been a stomach-churning attack to watch.


 
Indeed.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> Post #2
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/did-cops-just-shoot-2-dead-in-woolwich.310684/#post-12256257


TBH I'm perfectly happy to go along with Boya Dee knowing whether the guys who did it are black or not as well.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> According to the BBC news, two men of Muslim appearance have hacked a British soldier to death, and filmed the event. They were also heard to shout 'Allah Akbar'.
> 
> Forgive me if I don't share in your .


he's grinning at the bloke (ETA the tweeting witness) making this extraordinarily gruesome attack only one of the "top three" mad things he's seen, not belittling the attack itself.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> The bolding's not important. I think you're wriggling tbh.


 
Really?


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Really?


Yes.

Next question?


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Meeting of Cobra (Guardian). I reckon it's all over bar the shouting though.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Same auld same auld I see


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> Meeting of Cobra (Guardian). I reckon it's all over bar the shouting though.


By no means 1000 posts by 7am ftw


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

is Woolwich a bad area? i don't know London at all really but heard a few people commenting that Woolwich is a pretty tough neighbourhood.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> By no means 1000 posts by 7am ftw


 
If it's a terror incident there'll be 1000 pages by 7am, won't mean anything more has happened.

Poor bloke (and his friends/ family) though, obviously.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> is Woolwich a bad area? i don't know London at all really but heard a few people commenting that it's a pretty tough neighbourhood.


It's in south london & you can make of that what you will


----------



## RedDragon (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> is Woolwich a bad area? i don't know London at all really but heard a few people commenting that Woolwich is a pretty tough neighbourhood.


The ferries are always fucked.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> If it's a terror incident there'll be 1000 pages by 7am, won't mean anything's happened.


this is urban. nothing we say bears any relation to whether something's happened


----------



## cyprusclean (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> *quietly crosses woolwich off potential places to move to*


 
You're okay if you're not in the military.


----------



## ddraig (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> is Woolwich a bad area? i don't know London at all really but heard a few people commenting that Woolwich is a pretty tough neighbourhood.


it is a shithole

i've seen a gang of about 10 with bats and machete looking implements chasing 2 others by the main square and off down a lane


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> is Woolwich a bad area? i don't know London at all really but heard a few people commenting that Woolwich is a pretty tough neighbourhood.


If it is I've honestly never experienced it in the four years I've lived here (well, next door in Plumstead but I come home via Woolwich and it's where I shop at the weekend).

I may have just been lucky, and I was actually out of the area during the riots (honest, officer...  ).

It's a weird one, it really is. I've never felt properly in danger, even when walking home on my own at night, though naturally I tend to keep to the well lit square and bus stops then.

I would say this is a very visceral, very public incident. It is not, however, the only violent incident to happen in London, probably not even today.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

I stayed with a mate for a year who had a flat on one of the big estates down there (can't recall which, used to walk from Woolwich Dockyard) when I was a stude in London mid 90s. Bit grim but not mental then was my impression.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

ddraig said:


> i've seen a gang of about 10 with bats and machete looking implements chasing 2 others by the main square and off down a lane


Am I right in thinking you said you used to live round here? When did you see that? Like I say, I might have been lucky, but I've never seen anything serious.

In fact, just occurred to me that the other day I saw a couple of kids grappling with each other and one threw a punch. That's genuinely probably one of the most violent things I've seen round here in the past four years.


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

There's a good chance of finding out exactly what happened if the choppy fuckers don't die.


----------



## ddraig (May 22, 2013)

e2a to LC
it was about 10/12 years ago iirc


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> There's a good chance of finding out exactly what happened if the choppy fuckers don't die.


I have to say, I'm mildly impressed/surprised they weren't shot dead.

Also, obvious but didn't occur to me: they got sent to separate hospitals. They think of everything these emergency services!


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)




----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

ddraig said:


> e2a to LC
> it was about 10/12 years ago iirc


Fair enough, things may have got better since then. Mebbe.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Am I right in thinking you said you used to live round here? When did you see that? Like I say, I might have been lucky, but I've never seen anything serious.
> 
> In fact, just occurred to me that the other day I saw a couple of kids grappling with each other and one threw a punch. That's genuinely probably one of the most violent things I've seen round here in the past four years.


Only incident I had in that year was joining with some righteous citizens to chase down a bag snatcher getting off the train. Caught him on the bridge and community discussion over whether or not to chuck him off ensued


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


>


Fffffuck.

Is that what a Muslim looks like then? Can I get a confirmation form Nick Robinson on this?


----------



## sim667 (May 22, 2013)

Just seen this. Mental, just mental.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> It's in south london & you can make of that what you will


 
means nowt really Pickman's I'm about 300 miles north and only been to London on short visits a handful of times in my life. i've no idea if it's bad or not just picking up what some have said on twitter and that.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fffffuck.
> 
> Is that what a Muslim looks like then? Can I get a confirmation form Nick Robinson on this?


Clearly slaphead is a keen reader of post-hajj Malcolm X and sees the Ummah as potentially black, white and brown  and whatever.


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 22, 2013)

Twitter report saying "locals heard no jihad comments. BBC claiming they filmed the incident, other eyewitnesses say they asked to have photos taken.


----------



## sim667 (May 22, 2013)

Very excessive use of the word "calm" on the bbc news.

I'm getting the impression their worried about immediate violent response against the muslim community aswell as further supposed Muslim attacks.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

I'm possibly being naive, but two guys kill another guy and the government is holding an emergency meeting - seems a bit OTT to me...

The media coverage is nuts, too.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

> "I just want to talk to you with your camera". He went on to say they had carried out the attack "because David Cameron, (the) British government sent troops in Arabic country".
> 
> They wanted to give a message to the British government. That's what they say to me when they were talking to my camera
> - Eyewtiness
> "They wanted to give a message to the British government," the witness said.


----------



## krink (May 22, 2013)

whatever happened it's fucking grim stuff this, think I'll switch news off.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm possibly being naive, but two guys kill another guy and the government is holding an emergency meeting - seems a bit OTT to me...
> 
> The media coverage is nuts, too.


Unless scene and victim plus whatever lead them to believe it's an attack on armed forces, presume sort of meeting would be procedure in such a case.


----------



## paulhackett (May 22, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Very excessive use of the word "calm" on the bbc news.


 
It's happened a lot since they moved closer to Liverpool


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 22, 2013)

Just found out about this. May be jihadis - but I wtf does 'of muslim apperance' mean? - full 'tacheless beard and robes - or a bit dusky looking. Also witnesses reporting them being heard to shout 'allah akbar' - reminds me of the DE Menzies shooting - muslim looking, witnesses saying he rna when challenged and had a rucksack.

Attacked with a machete ain't the normal jihadi MO - more like gangster. 

I'm not prepared to take the line being spun by the government - its too soon for them to bigging up the terror attack angle when they cant know all the facts. My 'chinny reckon' muscle is twitching somewhat.


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Just seen this. Mental, just mental.


 
I find it very strange to consider that there are people out there who are prepared to butcher someone in the street, for whatever reason.


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

Christ, I'm not sure I'd want to stand that close to a bloke with a meat cleaver in his hand who's just been using it


----------



## Wilf (May 22, 2013)

krink said:


> whatever happened it's fucking grim stuff this, think I'll switch news off.


 I'm at work, so I've only seen it on here, not the telly. However I know what you mean, some things feel just so horribly intrusive you don't want to watch rolling news coverage.


----------



## rekil (May 22, 2013)

Heads For Heroes


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> ........the choppy fuckers........


 


Yeah I know I laughed, I'm going to hell


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Unless scene and victim plus whatever lead them to believe it's an attack on armed forces, presume sort of meeting would be procedure in such a case.


Mm, p'raps, but if that were the case seems odd they'd attack one guy _right outside_ the barracks, where presumably there were many more soldiers and they could have made much more of an impact.


----------



## pinkmonkey (May 22, 2013)

I lived in Woolwich dockyard for four years about 10 years ago, it was 'supposed' to be rough but I found it very quiet.  I used to be a keen runner back then and I had a favourite route through several parks and would return home down that hill where the barracks were, can't believe it, it's usually so very quiet around there.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I have to say, I'm mildly impressed/surprised they weren't shot dead.
> 
> Also, obvious but didn't occur to me: they got sent to separate hospitals. They think of everything these emergency services!



Nothing impressive about it, but somewhat surprising. When police shoot at you, they are supposed to kill you. Someone surviving means the shooter probably messed up. 2 people surviving is just weird.


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm possibly being naive, but two guys kill another guy and the government is holding an emergency meeting - seems a bit OTT to me...


 
That suggests to me that some kind of attack may have been expected.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> I'm at work, so I've only seen it on here, not the telly. However I know what you mean, some things feel just so horribly intrusive you don't want to watch rolling news coverage.


It's an interesting point. I have an inbuilt curiosity and need for detail, which is enhanced by the fact it's taken place in my area, but it does feel a little ghoulish.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Just found out about this. May be jihadis - but I wtf does 'of muslim apperance' mean? - full 'tacheless beard and robes - or a bit dusky looking. Also witnesses reporting them being heard to shout 'allah akbar' - reminds me of the DE Menzies shooting - muslim looking, witnesses saying he rna when challenged and had a rucksack.
> 
> Attacked with a machete ain't the normal jihadi MO - more like gangster.
> 
> I'm not prepared to take the line being spun by the government - its too soon for them to bigging up the terror attack angle when they cant know all the facts. My 'chinny reckon' muscle is twitching somewhat.


You can listen to the bloke himself later. 



> "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you," he said


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Mm, p'raps, but if that were the case seems odd they'd attack one guy _right outside_ the barracks, where presumably there were many more soldiers and they could have made much more of an impact.


Yep, could speculate that they wanted to keep it in street as more visible rather than charge in barracks and disappear from view (and Planet Earth no doubt) in short order. But who knows?


----------



## Tankus (May 22, 2013)

Don't think I would have carried on with a phone cam as a guy with a knife in his bloody walked towards me...

Some amazingly brave women there


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 22, 2013)

shit - just seen that link. Bad news if it is the jihadi cunts.


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2013)

*



			Exclusive: Man with bloodied hands at Woolwich scene
		
Click to expand...

*


> ITV News has obtained footage of a man with bloodied hands and carrying knives speaking into a camera in Woolwich.
> He made a series of political statements.
> "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you," he said


 
Fucking hell...


----------



## paulhackett (May 22, 2013)

edit - posted by t&p


----------



## dessiato (May 22, 2013)

(Before reading/hearing about this I downloaded Machete to watch tonight. I think I might give it a miss)

Terrible thing to happen to the cadet, a most dreadful way to die for whatever reason.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)




----------



## paulhackett (May 22, 2013)

edit - ba posted


----------



## T & P (May 22, 2013)

edit: posted above


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


>




Jesus. EDL are going to have a field day.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Bloody hell. Curious about the editing, but I'm just rather suspicious of the media these days.


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Jesus. EDL are going to have a field day.


 
Yep.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fffffuck.
> 
> Is that what a Muslim looks like then? Can I get a confirmation form Nick Robinson on this?


Well he's got a hat, Muslims wear hats. He's brown, Muslims are often brown. He's got a bloody meat cleaver, Muslims eat meat...


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Jesus. EDL are going to have a field day.


More like UKIP i think, edl not really in the picture here. And they'll shit it as well. UKIP will just pick up the political anger that will undoubtedly come without having to do anything.


----------



## sim667 (May 22, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I find it very strange to consider that there are people out there who are prepared to butcher someone in the street, for whatever reason.



To some African immigrants it may not be too distant a memory.

Not making assumptions about the perpetrators, but to some people living in the uk may well have lived through regimes that did butcher people in the street.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Christ, I'm not sure I'd want to stand that close to a bloke with a meat cleaver in his hand who's just been using it


To be fair if the guy was saying 'film me' you'd be going 'which is your best side' though.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Jesus. EDL are going to have a field day.


 

They all are.... The Mail, Heffer, Hitchens, Farage, the lot of 'em. It's going to get even more uncomfortable for Muslims, especially in London.


----------



## snadge (May 22, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> this looks fucking nuts. https://twitter.com/BOYADEE


 

WTF is this guy saying, did he go to a school at all?

On the radio it has just been said it is being dealt with as a terrorist attack.


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

On the coverage of this people are just walking around what happened like they are going shopping or something. What the fuck


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Andrew Hertford said:


> They all are.... The Mail, Heffer, Hitchens, Farage, the lot of 'em. It's going to get even more uncomfortable for Muslims, especially in London.


And black people as well.



snadge said:


> WTF is this guy saying, did he go to a school at all?
> 
> On the radio it has just been said it is being dealt with as a terrorist attack.


If you look at his Youtube he's a 'grime artiste', he's probably trying to keep up with that image. Their music is a bit slow for my liking though.


----------



## bi0boy (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> On the coverage of this people are just walking around what happened like they are going shopping or something. What the fuck


 
What do you expect them to walk like


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

That's a good accent yer man with the red hands has got. The 7/7 lads were from the North - he's obviously local as fuck.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Just showed it on the BBC, noticed a woman with a trolley just walking past in the background!  Must not have known what was going on!


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> What do you expect them to walk like


 
Uhh, I'd expect them to be running in the opposite direction?


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

If it's clear by that point they had a target and weren't on a random rampage no need to run and people were walking over to try and aid victim etc. it seems.


----------



## RedDragon (May 22, 2013)

sim667 said:


> To some African immigrants it may not be too distant a memory.
> 
> Not making assumptions about the perpetrators, but to some people living in the uk may well have lived through regimes that did butcher people in the street.


Pople like this guy no doubt.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Londoners innit. It's not 'cool' to be seen on telly running away from a knife wielding lunatic.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Londoners innit. It's not 'cool' to be seen on telly running away from a knife wielding lunatic.


We just don't like to make a fuss.


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

Keep calm and carry on.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

BBC reporting: Queen is 'concerned' at news of the attack

All a bit OTT.


----------



## kavenism (May 22, 2013)

Fuck-in-hell! How can the man just stand there waxing lyrical after he's just hacked a blokes head off. This is some serious shit. Cool, calm and totally mental.


----------



## Ranbay (May 22, 2013)

It's all sorted Tommy Paul Steven Harris Robbinson is on the way now.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Have been getting a bit protective of my area. It's not that bad really! Ok, we've had this, and the riots, but we also had the Olympics!

Admittedly it was the shooting...


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

sim667 said:


> To some African immigrants it may not be too distant a memory.
> 
> Not making assumptions about the perpetrators, but to some people living in the uk may well have lived through regimes that did butcher people in the street.


 
He doesn't sound like he is a very recent immigrant


----------



## mauvais (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


>


That guy, and the guy he walks off to in the background, are stood next to each other in this still, no?







Edit: not sure on reviewing it


----------



## Sprocket. (May 22, 2013)

This might seem a bit leftfield, but haven't they (Home Office) just approved the provision of water cannon 'in case of civil unrest'?
Are we expecting reprisal attacks?
Panic in the streets of London.
Sadly someone is now dead in a gutter!


----------



## silverfish (May 22, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Nothing impressive about it, but somewhat surprising. When police shoot at you, they are supposed to kill you. Someone surviving means the shooter probably messed up. 2 people surviving is just weird.



Speaks the voice of firearms experience, lolz


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

Attacks on Muslims will go through the facking roof now


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

If that bloke is 'of muslim appearance' then basically, every central african bloke is.


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

mauvais said:


> That guy, and the guy he walks off to in the background, are stood next to each other in this still, no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No, I don't think so. Different clothes.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> If that bloke is 'of muslim appearance' then basically, every central african bloke is.


I think that would fit their theory nicely


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Balbi said:


> If that bloke is 'of muslim appearance' then basically, every central african bloke is.


But he's wearing a hat!11!!


----------



## telbert (May 22, 2013)

mauvais said:


> That guy, and the guy he walks off to in the background, are stood next to each other in this still, no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 Yeah,t'is.


----------



## marty21 (May 22, 2013)

I've been to Woolwich a few times, went to college in the 90s in relatively nearby Eltham - it has a rough reputation, but I never found it particularly scary in the times I have been there - then again I live in what used to be called murder mile


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Lord West (?) on C4 News in a dinner jacket w/ scarf  This has put a spanner in his evening.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> But he's wearing a hat!11!!


 
A bobble hat at that.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 22, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Attacks on Muslims will go through the facking roof now


 
Hopefully not,it is what both ends of the extremes want and hope/pray for whatever side they allegedly support!


----------



## Sweet FA (May 22, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> What do you expect them to walk like


Like that animated 'omg' gif (that I can't find  )


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

mauvais said:


> That guy, and the guy he walks off to in the background, are stood next to each other in this still, no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Don't think so. Look at length of jacket (on light jacket guy). His hair looks short as well.

Furthermore, if they were the only took attackers, then who are the police attending to on the ground

Light jacket guy's jacket looks creamy/beige whereas guy in group picture looks like he's wearing grey


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Don't think so. Look at length of jacket (on light jacket guy). His hair looks short as well.
> 
> Furthermore, if they were the only took attackers, then who are the police attending to on the ground


I reckon the police have both attackers on the ground in the background. 

It was only a matter of time before the tinfoil hats came out though.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Unless scene and victim plus whatever lead them to believe it's an attack on armed forces, presume sort of meeting would be procedure in such a case.


They must have been in constant session 1970-1994 then


----------



## Balbi (May 22, 2013)

Somewhere out there, Frankie Boyle is working on a 'What the fuck was Balotelli thinking!' joke


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Sweet FA said:


> Like that animated 'omg' gif (that I can't find  )


 
I just being looking for that. The ''oh noes'' with little stick men running around.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Don't think so. Look at length of jacket (on light jacket guy). His hair looks short as well.
> 
> Furthermore, if they were the only took attackers, then who are the police attending to on the ground
> 
> Light jacket guy's jacket looks creamy/beige whereas guy in group picture looks like he's wearing grey



The police are attending to one person and one kit bag in that pic. Seen other angle on telly


----------



## elbows (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> No, I don't think so. Different clothes.


 
Also since people presumably shot by police are visible in the distance, it does not make much sense.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I reckon the police have both attackers on the ground in the background.
> 
> It was only a matter of time before the tinfoil hats came out though.


 
Well that's what I assumed.  Attackers are not in that group picture.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I reckon the police have both attackers on the ground in the background.
> 
> It was only a matter of time before the tinfoil hats came out though.


A very short time


----------



## ddraig (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Jesus. EDL are going to have a field day.


they'll be marching up that road from eltham again, threatening justice etc


----------



## D'wards (May 22, 2013)

I know, but a lot of English people are well up for a bit of "Help for Heroes" action and will see this almost as a personal attack.  The armed forces will see it as a direct personal attack. I expect reprisals from the forces, unofficially like, as used to go on in NI all the time.


----------



## elbows (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> The police are attending to one person and one kit bag in that pic. Seen other angle on telly


 
Aha, I am probably a bit too tired to be attempting to study photos right now.


----------



## mauvais (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I reckon the police have both attackers on the ground in the background.
> 
> It was only a matter of time before the tinfoil hats came out though.


Not tinfoiling, just trying to work out what was going on in that rather strange picture.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> The police are attending to one person and one kit bag in that pic. Seen other angle on telly


In the video you see them come up from the guy on the left and go to the car for a kit bag, you also see another copper 'covering' the figure that looks like a body on the right at the back as though he has just shot them and is making sure they are down.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

"No question there's some kind of criminality going on" - well done sir, well done!

(He was suggesting they attackers were high, but c'mon!)


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

elbows said:


> Aha, I am probably a bit too tired to be attempting to study photos right now.


No need, there is a video of the whole scene.


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

My FB is full of people having a go at 'them' 






I wish it had been crackheads with a personal vendetta


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Video of the incident from the same angle as the still photo that seems to be about to push up aluminium sales. You don't see anyone go down, but you hear shouting. You can see two figures on the floor, then one copper goes back for a kit bag, presumably with first aid supplies. mauvais Minnie_the_Minx


----------



## Sweet FA (May 22, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> What do you expect them to walk like


----------



## mk12 (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You can listen to the bloke himself later.


 
From Guardian:
"The man with the machete's full statement to the camera was:
"We swear by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth. We apologise that women had to see this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don't care about you."​


----------



## telbert (May 22, 2013)

telbert said:


> Yeah,t'is.


 

Withdrawn your honour.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

mauvais said:


> Not tinfoiling, just trying to work out what was going on in that rather strange picture.


Look at the video I just posted then.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Don't think so. Look at length of jacket (on light jacket guy). His hair looks short as well.
> 
> Furthermore, if they were the only took attackers, then who are the police attending to on the ground
> 
> Light jacket guy's jacket looks creamy/beige whereas guy in group picture looks like he's wearing grey


Plus - Grey hoodie vs beige coat, jeans on the other guy are the wrong colour - the attackers in the video are absolutely _*not*_ pictured in the group around the body in that shot. It's not even close. Bizarre conjecture tbh, I don't really see how anyone could confuse them.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

@woolwichfinest


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

I don't really disagree with their last statement tbf


----------



## Jon-of-arc (May 22, 2013)

silverfish said:


> Speaks the voice of firearms experience, lolz



I've read enough reports of things like the Iranian embassy and what not to know that there's no such thing as a shoot to wound policy.  Happy to be corrected, if you want to produce something. Funny how nobody walks away from armed response shootings alive, though.


----------



## mk12 (May 22, 2013)

wiskey

Whose? The killer's?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

mk12 said:


> "...Remove your government."


 
As if we're even able to.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> @woolwichfinest



Gotta make a living


----------



## wiskey (May 22, 2013)

mk12 said:


> wiskey
> 
> Whose? The killer's?


 
the gov't not caring bit.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

mk12 said:


> From Guardian:
> "The man with the machete's full statement to the camera was:
> "We swear by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth. We apologise that women had to see this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don't care about you."​


That shows a nice spirit


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I've read enough reports of things like the Iranian embassy and what not to know that there's no such thing as a shoot to wound policy. Happy to be corrected, if you want to produce something. Funny how nobody walks away from armed response shootings alive, though.


Aye.  I've read/seen/heard plenty of SO19 (or whatever they are now) saying the same, so it seemed a fair point to me.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

I really hope they get that guy Boyadee on the TV.

Been watching some of his band Nu Brand Flexxx's  music videos. Some of them are


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Not sure why this thread is still going tbh, we've clearly answered the original question


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

It's just so fucking surreal in that video of the guy with the bloodied hands and meat cleaver. I wonder what the reaction of the lady with her shopping was when she realised what was going on.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> Aye.  I've read/seen/heard plenty of SO19 (or whatever they are now) saying the same, so it seemed a fair point to me.


CO19


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Not sure why this thread is still going tbh, we've clearly answered the original question


You're new to urban, aren't you


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> I really hope they get that guy Boyadee on the TV.
> 
> Been watching some of his band Nu Brand Flexxx's music videos. Some of them are



I prefer my grime a bit faster tbh. That's one of the livlier tracks.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

There was probably an emergency services drill of EXACTLY this kind of scenario going on simultaneously.


----------



## xenon (May 22, 2013)

Anyone know how badly injured the 2 alleged asailents are. Conscious, critical etc?


Who needs Al Quida, planes and bombs, when a couple of motivated murderess nutcases can do this. On any high street any where.


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

Islamonut murder is one way to get your 15 mins of fame.

Horrific though it is, I suppose it could have been even worse. If the murderers had been determined to maximise the carnage, they could easily have left the street littered with dismembered corpses, but it seems that after murdering some squaddie these gentlemen were content to pose for photos, wait for Plod and then launch a hopeless attack, knowing that Plod almost certainly had guns and would know how to use them.

This horror illustrates a point many have made for years: that if you are determined to murder, you don't need to spend any time in training camps in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia or any other exotic location. Given the will, the ruthlessness and easily available weapons, anyone can commit an atrocity.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 22, 2013)

It's Nuts, I hope there's no copycat attacks.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> That shows a nice spirit


 
Well he respects women so that's one good thing.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

This really does re-enforce the argument that our presence in Afghanistan is far more likely to increase terrorism than diminish it. Not that this is the conclusion that will be drawn from this by the state and media.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> ...
> Who needs Al Quida, planes and bombs, when a couple of motivated murderess nutcases can do this. On any high street any where.


Not aiming this at you, but comment prompted the thought that a targeted attack using a pistol and blades on a member of the armed services is a different sort of terror to bombs in public spaces. Not even sure where I'm going with that but qualitatively different.


----------



## silverfish (May 22, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I've read enough reports of things like the Iranian embassy and what not to know that there's no such thing as a shoot to wound policy.  Happy to be corrected, if you want to produce something. Funny how nobody walks away from armed response shootings alive, though.



Post a single line of sense and i might consider an adult discussion.

While you are typing your response imagine a blood spattered man running towards you swinging a machete after he has just decapitated someone. Type straight now


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> That shows a nice spirit



He's quite correct.


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Just showed it on the BBC, noticed a woman with a trolley just walking past in the background!  Must not have known what was going on!



Life imitates GTA.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

JHE said:


> Horrific though it is, I suppose it could have been even worse. If the murderers had been determined to maximise the carnage, they could easily have left the street littered with dismembered corpses, but it seems that after murdering some squaddie these gentlemen were content to pose for photos, wait for Plod and then launch a hopeless attack, knowing that Plod almost certainly had guns and would know how to use them.


 
What gentlemen, totally commendable behaviour... after they just killed and attempted to chop somebodies head off that is.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> What gentlemen, totally commendable behaviour... after they just killed attempted to chop somebodies head off that is.


 
I think maybe you missed the point of JHE's post.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 22, 2013)

xenon said:


> Anyone know how badly injured the 2 alleged asailents are. Conscious, critical etc?
> 
> 
> Who needs Al Quida, planes and bombs, when a couple of motivated murderess nutcases can do this. On any high street any where.


 



JHE said:


> Islamonut murder is one way to get your 15 mins of fame.
> 
> Horrific though it is, I suppose it could have been even worse. If the murderers had been determined to maximise the carnage, they could easily have left the street littered with dismembered corpses, but it seems that after murdering some squaddie these gentlemen were content to pose for photos, wait for Plod and then launch a hopeless attack, knowing that Plod almost certainly had guns and would know how to use them.
> 
> This horror illustrates a point many have made for years: that if you are determined to murder, you don't need to spend any time in training camps in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia or any other exotic location. Given the will, the ruthlessness and easily available weapons, anyone can commit an atrocity.


 
That's terrorism folks!


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> What gentlemen, totally commendable behaviour... after they just killed attempted to chop somebodies head off that is.


The rise of the chap in extremist terrorism. Next time it will be some extremists attempting to kill someone whilst sticking the the Marquess of Queensberry rules.


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> What gentlemen, totally commendable behaviour... after they just killed and attempted to chop somebodies head off that is.


 
Nothing commendable about it.  If you read approval of Islamonuttery in my post, you misread it.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

Christ, just seen the guy on the news holding the meat cleaver, his hands bright red with blood. What a nightmare image. I feel ill.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

JHE said:


> Nothing commendable about it. If you read approval of Islamonuttery in my post, you misread it.


 
What point were you trying to make in the paragraph I quoted?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> The rise of the chap in extremist terrorism. Next time it will be some extremists attempting to kill someone whilst sticking the the Marquess of Queensberry rules.


Sticking them where?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

JHE said:


> Nothing commendable about it.  If you read approval of Islamonuttery in my post, you misread it.


Nothing commendable about it IYO. Other people may think differently.


----------



## paulhackett (May 22, 2013)

Thank goodness people are starting to leave floral tributes. You'd have been forgiven for thinking the world had gone completely mad if they hadn't. .


----------



## mrsfran (May 22, 2013)

It's on the ITV website too. Jesus.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

Is the age of the victim known?


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Is the age of the victim known?


Read 20 in one report IIRC


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> What point were you trying to make in the paragraph I quoted?


 
I can't see anything obscure in what I said.  What is it you find difficult to understand?


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Is the age of the victim known?



No much about him at all. The police must be trying to find his mum.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)




----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

On the BBC they are still tip-toeing around calling it a terrorist attack. Have they not seen the video of the attacker talking about his motives?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> No much about him at all. The police must be trying to find his mum.


 
Yep.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


>



Oh for gods sake, don't be such a twat. It's perfectly clear what he's saying. Do you live in a hole, you smug chortling cunt?


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> he's grinning at the bloke (ETA the tweeting witness) making this extraordinarily gruesome attack only one of the "top three" mad things he's seen, not belittling the attack itself.


 
Ah, my mistake. Sorry.


----------



## elbows (May 22, 2013)

Some tweets:



> The BBC's Nick Robinson tweets: "To those offended by my describing the attacker as of "Muslim appearance" - I was directly quoting a Whitehall source quoting the police."





> @*fateiskind*
> Should I one day go ballistic and commit and atrocious crime, I hope they say on the news that the suspect is of 'agnostic appearance'.


‏


> @*MichaelLCrick*
> 12m​I understand senior govt figures not happy that video of man with knives justifying Woolwich killing was shown on ITV, C4 + C5





> @*JoshHalliday*
> 11m​ITV News left out a bit of the shocking #*Woolwich* video for legal reasons, I'm told.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

I'm glad the killers are alive and British. It will be interesting to see what they say at their trial and whether they show any remorse after decades in prison.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> Oh for gods sake, don't be such a twat. It's perfectly clear what he's saying. Do you live in a hole, you smug chortling cunt?


 
Yes. Obviously I made that graphic specially because I don't understand.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yes. Cos I made that graphic because I don't understand.


What, that pretending to need a translator for slang isn't racist? Or was it something else that you didn't understand.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Fffffuck.
> 
> Is that what a Muslim looks like then? Can I get a confirmation form Nick Robinson on this?


 
There certainly has been some very mixed reporting on this. I'm still not entirely clear what happened.

It appears that two men in a car deliberately ran into a third man, whom they then hacked to death. Subsequent to this, they stood, weapons in hand, awaiting the arrival of the police. When the police arrived, the men threatened them to the extent that the police opened fire, wounding both men. The men are being teated in separate London hospitals.

Does that sum it up accurately?


----------



## elbows (May 22, 2013)

Facepalm @ ITV news report signing off with 'the day Baghdad style violence came to London'.


----------



## marty21 (May 22, 2013)

on my FB - my niece has just tweeted something from English National Resistance



> THEY'VE KILLED ONE OF OUR BOYS IN WOOLWICH, S.E LONDON!
> KICK THE BASTARDS OUT NOW! SHARE AND LIKE!


 


family 

ironically, my niece emigrated to this country, her grandfather emigrated to Australia, her great grandfather emigrated to Canada


----------



## Brixton Hatter (May 22, 2013)

There's been a couple of other cases of plots to kill/kidnap soldiers and police officers iirc - linked to the Taleban, which is why I assume they are considering it a 'terrorist attack' and why Cobra was called so quickly after the incident.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7250697.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_plot_to_behead_a_British_Muslim_soldier


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

> _Should I one day go ballistic and commit and atrocious crime, __I hope they say on the news that the suspect is of 'agnostic appearance'._




Well, yeah, if you shout 'I don't know if God exists!  I'm really unsure about the whole question!' as you commit the crime and then make a statement to camera about your agnosticism, it would be fair to say you appeared to be an agnostic.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> What, that pretending to need a translator for slang isn't racist? Or was it something else that you didn't understand.


 
Oh ffs. Its just some crap lol gif. Racist? Give me a break that's just slang - no racial element to it. Don't pull that one.


----------



## moonsi til (May 22, 2013)

Ch 4 news have reported about the EDL going out tonight.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I'm glad the killers are alive and British. It will be interesting to see what they say at their trial and whether they show any remorse after decades in prison.


 
The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?

Perhaps there will be answers to the obvious questions, which would not be the case if they had been killed.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (May 22, 2013)

> _@*MichaelLCrick*_
> _12m_
> _I understand senior govt figures not happy that video of man with knives justifying Woolwich killing was shown on ITV, C4 + C5_


Of course they're not fucking happy with the video - they can't control the news anymore. 

And the guy says "remove your Government" !


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> There certainly has been some very mixed reporting on this. I'm still not entirely clear what happened.
> 
> It appears that two men in a car deliberately ran into a third man, whom they then hacked to death. Subsequent to this, they stood, weapons in hand, awaiting the arrival of the police. When the police arrived, the men threatened them to the extent that the police opened fire, wounding both men. The men are being teated in separate London hospitals.
> 
> Does that sum it up accurately?


Something like that, I think. 





moonsi til said:


> Ch 4 news have reported about the EDL going out tonight.


It's a couple of quiet pints then back in time for the cricket highlights, Sally.

Thanks Colin.


----------



## Ranbay (May 22, 2013)

moonsi til said:


> Ch 4 news have reported about the EDL going out tonight.


 
They have about 4-5k new likes on facebook today already.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?
> 
> Perhaps there will be answers to the obvious questions, which would not be the case if they had been killed.


If. as reported somewhere,  the killers ran up close to them to attack them with knives etc, it would have been difficult to draw, aim and fire quickly and accurately. My assumption is they shot to kill, but missed vital organs.


----------



## fogbat (May 22, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?


I just assumed standard police incompetence.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Of course they're not fucking happy with the video - they can't control the news anymore.
> 
> And the guy says "remove your Government" !


It's (mildly) interesting that they haven't shown the first bit of the video, where he refers to Islam (if the quotes above are correct).


----------



## Brixton Hatter (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> It's (mildly) interesting that they haven't shown the first bit of the video, where he refers to Islam (if the quotes above are correct).


Yeah ITV cut that bit out - not sure if the others (C4, C5) did too. 

There will be loads more footage out there too, which will come to light over the next few days.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (May 22, 2013)

moonsi til said:


> Ch 4 news have reported about the EDL going out tonight.


What, for a few beers?


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> If. as reported somewhere, the killers ran up close to them to attack them with knives etc, it would have been difficult to draw, aim and fire quickly and accurately. My assumption is they shot to kill, but missed vital organs.


 
TGhe report from he Twitter guy earlier said that one tried to shoot at the police with his gun but it just blew his own finger off.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> Oh ffs. Its just some crap lol gif. Racist? Give me a break that's just slang - no racial element to it. Don't pull that one.


Why is it funny then? Lol, look at the deliberately illiterate sounding black person, lol at their culture? Why? I'd like to know.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Of course they're not fucking happy with the video - they can't control the news anymore.
> 
> And the guy says "remove your Government" !


 
Glamorising terrorism innit. They'll have to dub the words with an actor's voice. That should do it.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 22, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?


 
They're not allowed to hit people over the head with batons either.


----------



## Epico (May 22, 2013)

elbows said:


> Facepalm @ ITV news report signing off with 'the day Baghdad style violence came to London'.



I picked up on that too, typical ITN bullshit. Loathsome reporting.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Epico said:


> I picked up on that too, typical ITN bullshit. Loathsome reporting.


 
Innit. I didn't think ITN were like that tbh. C4 certainly aren't and they are part of ITN.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Why is it funny then? Lol, look at the deliberately illiterate sounding black person, lol at their culture? Why? I'd like to know.


 
There's nothing black in it. It's just slang..youth slang if you want, but nothing black in it that I can see. If that's the way it comes over then I'm genuinely sorry.


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> View attachment 32881




In his hand - is that the "machete"?


----------



## ffsear (May 22, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> There's nothing black in it. It's just slang..youth slang if you want, but nothing black in it that I can see. If that's the way it comes over then I'm genuinely sorry.


 
Careful!   its far too easy to offend on here!


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> In his hand - is that the "machete"?


 
In the video it looked to me like a meat cleaver.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> In his hand - is that the "machete"?


 
Looks like a knife of some sort and a meat cleaver


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> There's nothing black in it. It's just slang..youth slang if you want, but nothing black in it that I can see. If that's the way it comes over then I'm genuinely sorry.


Fair enough. 

Of course normal procedure for textspeak and slang makes it all pretty clear what he's saying anyway. Just read it out loud phonetically, innit. It's not hard to understand.


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


>





This looks more like an extreme episode of Jackass.


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Looks like a knife of some sort and a meat cleaver



I'm Canucking, so give me a mo.   I just found out about it, read a couple of news reports then attacked this thread.


But, yes, I'm having issues with the word "machete".


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

It's a meat cleaver, but tbf if you were an eyewitness to that event you might be a bit confused and just grab for the nearest word that came to mind.


----------



## spanglechick (May 22, 2013)

or there may also have been a machete which has been dropped or whatever.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> There's nothing black in it. It's just slang..youth slang if you want, but nothing black in it that I can see. If that's the way it comes over then I'm genuinely sorry.


Aye my eldest is 22 and he talks like that all the time. He be white, lives in Dorset and is ginger da poor fool

Ay iz tellin his mom (Who says she doesn't understand a wordoh he speaks) long time now she iz not down wid gangsta speak an all ting yootful. She's just happy he doesn't talk like me and managed to escape the whiney scouse nasal toneage.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Aye my eldest is 22 and he talks like that all the time. He be white, lives in Dorset and is ginger da poor fool
> 
> Ay iz tellin his mom (Who says she doesn't understand a work he speaks) long time now she iz not down wid gangsta speak an all ting yootful. She's just happy he doesn't talk like me and managed to escape the whiney scouse nasal toneage.


 
Can you translate the part in red please


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?
> 
> Perhaps there will be answers to the obvious questions, which would not be the case if they had been killed.




Public pressure from good people like yourself to be more responsible.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Public pressure from good people like yourself to be more responsible.


Other way in UK IIRC, only shoot if you have to (needs killing) otherwise don't is the ideal.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 22, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?
> 
> Perhaps there will be answers to the obvious questions, which would not be the case if they had been killed.


 
Exactly, dead men tell no tales, but the fact they are still alive may just be down to luck and not an intended result.


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

weepiper said:


> It's a meat cleaver, but tbf if you were an eyewitness to that event you might be a bit confused and just grab for the nearest word that came to mind.




Yes, I agree.

The choice of the word machete tends to imply terrorism.
The choice of the word muslim as a description tends to imply terrorism.

Everyone seems to be drawn to the concept of anything evil is terrorism.


Terrorism seems to be the cool thing right now.


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Yes, I agree.
> 
> The choice of the word machete tends to imply terrorism.
> The choice of the word muslim as a description tends to imply terrorism.
> ...


 
Thanks for that deconstruction of an Islamist terrorist attack, really helpful.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

I thought armed police was shoot to incapacitate when possible e.g no firearm involved.


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Other way in UK IIRC, only shoot if you have to (needs killing) otherwise don't is the ideal.




<shrugs>  maybe things are a-changing.




and please don't start on some conspiracy thing that the cops knew in advance and were given orders not to kill.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> I thought armed police was shoot to incapacitate when possible e.g no firearm involved.


Just reading about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom#.22Shoot_to_kill.22_policy


> The national media has criticised the so-called "shoot to kill" policy adopted by police forces. Police firearms training actually teaches the use and discharge of firearms to "remove the threat" rather than to kill. Following the September 11, 2001 attacks new guidelines were developed for identifying, confronting, and dealing forcefully with terrorist suspects. These guidelines were given the code name "Operation Kratos".


----------



## Libertad (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Yes, I agree.
> 
> The choice of the word machete tends to imply terrorism.
> The choice of the word muslim as a description tends to imply terrorism.
> ...


 
What the fuck are you wittering on about now?


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> The choice of the word machete tends to imply terrorism.


 
That's an odd thing to say.


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Thanks for that deconstruction of an Islamist terrorist attack, really helpful.




It wasn't a frigging  terrorist attack.  
It was two twits who thought they could get famous.


Don't most terrorist attacks involve multiple deaths of innocents?   Why not attack the on-lookers instead of posing for their pictures to be taken?


----------



## Spymaster (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> I thought armed police was shoot to incapacitate when possible e.g no firearm involved.


 
I'd expect armed police, when faced with a mad fucker with a meat cleaver, to shoot the cunt until he stopped moving.

I think we can put the fact that neither of them are dead down to their good fortune rather than plods benevolence.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> I thought armed police was shoot to incapacitate when possible e.g no firearm involved.


It's 'remove the threat', so if someone was likely to have a gun or a bomb then a shoot to kill policy would be justified. Someone with a knife perhaps less so but even the best marksman could easily kill someone with a stopping shot - there is no 'safe' way to shoot someone, this isn't the movies.


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> It wasn't a frigging terrorist attack.


 
It was ideologically motivated and spectacular murder.  Isn't that what is usually meant by terrorism?


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

Libertad said:


> What the fuck are you wittering on about now?




I don't think that it was a terrorist attack.
I think y'all are grasping at straws trying to prove it was a terrorist attack.

meh - I'm going to go cook my dinner, reread the thread and maybe pick up on some signs that y'all think this NOT a terrorist attack.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> It wasn't a frigging terrorist attack.
> It was two twits who thought they could get famous.
> 
> 
> Don't most terrorist attacks involve multiple deaths of innocents? Why not attack the on-lookers instead of posing for their pictures to be taken?


 
The fact he said ''remove your government'' would indicate it was terrorism.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 22, 2013)

Just saw some pictures of this and it looks like pretty grim stuff.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Don't most terrorist attacks involve multiple deaths of innocents? Why not attack the on-lookers instead of posing for their pictures to be taken?


 
Not necessarily.  Look at the IRA's record


----------



## TruXta (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> It's 'remove the threat', so if someone was likely to have a gun or a bomb then a shoot to kill policy would be justified. Someone with a knife perhaps less so but even the best marksman could easily kill someone with a stopping shot - there is no 'safe' way to shoot someone, this isn't the movies.


The safe way is to kill them.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

The definition of terrorism appears to have evolved since I was a kind and there were no bins in London.  It now seems to be applied to anyone committing violence in the name of a 'cause', no matter whether they act entirely in isolation or not.

Which makes me wonder if we can now pigeon-hole all violence into either terrorism, crime of passion, or insanity.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> It wasn't a frigging terrorist attack.
> It was two twits who thought they could get famous.
> 
> 
> Don't most terrorist attacks involve multiple deaths of innocents? Why not attack the on-lookers instead of posing for their pictures to be taken?


Terrorism - in the mainstream use - is an act _designed _to cause terror among the general public and forcefully impose a course of action on them/the state. After beheading someone the beheader here said:



> You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don't care about you."


 
More to the point, wtf are you on about?


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> I don't think that it was a terrorist attack.


I think we need a definition of terrorist/terrorism. And before anyone quotes it, I don't believe the dictionary definition does the job in current usage.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> I thought armed police was shoot to incapacitate when possible e.g no firearm involved.


Likelihood is they used their Glock sidearm quite swiftly on arrival. Probably no time to open the safe in the boot and get a batton round out or their rifles.Can't see them tazering someone who's already chopped a dudes head off either.

There's no 'aim to wound policy' afaik as that doesn't actually work in reality and is just for the movies. The target area is the largest area available which in most cases is the torso. Then they get the kit out of the boot (As seen) and try to save your life once they know you ain't fit for fighting back.

It's so dam British it's almost nice.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> I don't think that it was a terrorist attack.
> I think y'all are grasping at straws trying to prove it was a terrorist attack.
> 
> meh - I'm going to go cook my dinner, reread the thread and maybe pick up on some signs that y'all think this NOT a terrorist attack.


 
We had the IRA first!


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

Any targeted killings of soldiers, cops etc. or political figures by armed groups during the Troubles were called acts of terrorism too. No need for it to be a big bomb.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Just reading about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom#.22Shoot_to_kill.22_policy


 
So does that policy deal specifically with terrorism? Maybe it wasn't apparent that this was a terrorist attack and hence only one of them(I assume the gunman) being seriously injured by the police.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> I think we need a definition of terrorist/terrorism. And before anyone quotes it, I don't believe the dictionary definition does the job in current usage.


What if a) other people do and b) it is the sense in which it being used by the media/politicians and public here?

It seems perfectly fine to me.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Any targeted killings of soldiers, cops etc. or political figures by armed groups during the Troubles were called acts of terrorism too. No need for it to be a big bomb.


 
Not forgetting the shankhill butchers who carried out crimes very similar to this.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> It wasn't a frigging  terrorist attack.
> It was two twits who thought they could get famous.
> 
> 
> Don't most terrorist attacks involve multiple deaths of innocents?   Why not attack the on-lookers instead of posing for their pictures to be taken?



Because if the point of terrorism is to cause terror then chopping someone's head off and spouting political/religious words has probably ticked the box.

Had they chased bystanders around people might have been reassured by their regular nuttiness. Standing around posing like they did is much more frightening. It suggests purpose.


----------



## Ted Striker (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


>




That footage is just...unbelievable.


----------



## Part 2 (May 22, 2013)

Eyewitness on ch4 news saying the attackers said only women could go near the body.


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> Any targeted killings of soldiers, cops etc. or political figures by armed groups during the Troubles were called acts of terrorism too. No need for it to be a big bomb.


 

Targeting people is itself a kind of terrorism.

The definition of terror itself is the anticipation and fear of a terrible event, as opposed to horror which is what is felt after it has happened.


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> So does that policy deal specifically with terrorism? Maybe it wasn't apparent that this was a terrorist attack and hence only one of them(I assume the gunman) being seriously injured by the police.


I'm talking out my arse mainly tbh; first thought was maybe if the gun had blown up and only knives left they did shoot to wound but as i say, thought policy was drop them if need be or don't fire (Wiki seems to be saying pointing gun is considered use, which seems fair enough - as in don't if you don't intend to fire)


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

To deny this is terrorism and to reserves the right to stuff like colombine is to turn things upside down.The latter is not terrorism.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 22, 2013)

Another WTF image.

"yeah, just standing here chatting to the guy with the bloodied knife in his hand"


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

JimW said:


> I'm talking out my arse mainly tbh; first thought was maybe if the gun had blown up and only knives left they did shoot to wound but as i say, thought policy was drop them if need be or don't fire (Wiki seems to be saying pointing gun is considered use, which seems fair enough - as in don't if you don't intend to fire)


If the Twitter guy was accurate then they not only pulled a gun but tried to fire it at police. It backfiring is neither here nor there as far as the police would be concerned, as they were still armed and potentially had other firearms.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 32885
> 
> Another WTF image.
> 
> "yeah, just standing here chatting to the guy with the bloodied knife in his hand"


 
Not even got her arms out ready to defend herself in case he goes for her.  That's incredibly calm


----------



## Mr Moose (May 22, 2013)

Eye witness claims that injured suspect voiced a preference to only be nursed by females and not by men. What's that saying? Call me what you like but I'm not a poof?


----------



## JimW (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> If the Twitter guy was accurate then they not only pulled a gun but tried to fire it at police. It backfiring is neither here nor there as far as the police would be concerned, as they were still armed and potentially had other firearms.


Yep, as I say that was just first thought on hearing they were alive but shot, before further details emerged.


----------



## cantsin (May 22, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> That footage is just...unbelievable.


 

head fuck on so many levels


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 32885
> 
> Another WTF image.
> 
> "yeah, just standing here chatting to the guy with the bloodied knife in his hand"


Very London.

And that's not a biased "we're so great" thing - I've not lived in London for almost a decade now.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

It really does have a 'Rubber dinghy rapids' feel to it this


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> I don't think that it was a terrorist attack.
> I think y'all are grasping at straws trying to prove it was a terrorist attack.
> 
> meh - I'm going to go cook my dinner, reread the thread and maybe pick up on some signs that y'all think this NOT a terrorist attack.


 
What is wrong with you?


----------



## joevsimp (May 22, 2013)

even if they are "terrorists" they should be treated as the common criminals that they are, don't give them the satisfaction of special treatment

tenner says they end up in broadmoor


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not even got her arms out ready to defend herself in case he goes for her. That's incredibly calm


Exactly what I thought, amazed her hands were in her pockets!


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2013)

As vultures rush to exploit the Woolwich horror people may wish to remind the hatemob that EDL leader Stephen Lennon was filmed laughing about the massacre of scores of young children in Finland. Does he only find today's grimness 1/70 as funny? 

Don't forget to include #EDL in giving the link. It is trending.

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=24vnzug&s=5


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

the woolwich horror


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

A small indication of the success of this gruesome murder - success, I mean, in gaining attention: the footage from Woolwich is being shown again and again on Spanish TV news. Predictably enough, most murders in London get no coverage in the Spanish news media, but in this case, what editor could resist the pictures and recordings? This will be all over the world's news media. These gentlemen's 15 mins of fame are going to be very international.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Exactly what I thought, amazed her hands were in her pockets!


 
Although by doing that, I suppose she looks less of a threat to him


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

JHE said:


> A small indication of the success of this gruesome murder - success, I mean, in gaining attention: the footage from Woolwich is being shown again and again on Spanish TV news. Predictably enough, most murders in London get no coverage in the Spanish news media, but in this case, what editor could resist the pictures and recordings? This will be all over the world's news media. These gentlemen's 15 mins of fame is going to be very international.


 
Main page of El País, weird.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

Mr Moose said:


> Eye witness claims that injured suspect voiced a preference to only be nursed by females and not by men. What's that saying? Call me what you like but I'm not a poof?


 
And if he's the one who was shot by the woman cop and he's pissed off about that, well that's blatant sexism.


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

the echo chamber over this is a bit weird really. It is a horror, and it is strange, but it is the way it is being presented by the media that I am finding really bizarre.


----------



## little_legs (May 22, 2013)

Slow news day, that's why it's all over the press. An upside for Cameron too, high horse time.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not even got her arms out ready to defend herself in case he goes for her. That's incredibly calm


She'll also be interesting to listen to at the trial. It'll be a fair trial in open court, resulting in long terms in HM prisons. No waterboarding, no military tribunal, no attempt to subvert justice by defining the killers as 'enemy combatants' or imprisoning them outside British territory.  That's the only good thing to come out of this - that we'll show the US the fair way to deal with terrorists. Not that it will undo the legacy of Blair's slaughter of Iraqis, but it's a start.


----------



## bi0boy (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> we'll show the US the fair way to deal with terrorists.


 
Don't kid yourself that they'll notice.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> the echo chamber over this is a bit weird really. It is a horror, and it is strange, but it is the way it is being presented by the media that I am finding really bizarre.


tbf, it is well out of the ordinary.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

little_legs said:


> Slow news day, that's why it's all over the press. An upside for Cameron too, high horse time.


That's not why it's all over the news at all. Do you really think this would be down the order on any other day? Really?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 22, 2013)

EDL Facebook page currently getting >2 likes/second - seen as response to this afternoon's events


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

little_legs said:
			
		

> Slow news day, that's why it's all over the press.



Bonkers. Political motivation always amplifies significance and resonance of violence/ crime. The media respond accordingly. 

This is a massive news story.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 22, 2013)

little_legs said:


> Slow news day, that's why it's all over the press. An upside for Cameron too, high horse time.


 
Running around with a bloody meat cleaver is going to attract attention by the newsmedia in most places.


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> tbf, it is well out of the ordinary.


 

I am not disputing that in any way. I don't know how to put it. Something about the way it is being presented just doesn't sit right with me. I won't say any more than that though because it is based on nothing really.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 22, 2013)

It is interesting the way that they appear to have deliberately tried to bypass the usual media channels and get their message out directly via passers-by, before the cops turned up, after which point they would have had/will not have the chance. Not in the sense of it being something inexplicable, but that it was put into practice apparently carefully.


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 22, 2013)

I said earlier it had a fucked up GTA feeling to it, even more so with the dudes just stood around waiting for the police to arrive and being talked to by people in the street walking past. The old woman with the shopping basket walking past as if nothing had happened. Surreal.


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

where to said:


> Bonkers. Political motivation always amplifies significance and resonance of violence/ crime. The media respond accordingly.
> 
> This is a massive news story.


 
It's not just that the murder is Islamonuttery. It's the extraordinary, horrific pictures and recordings, FFS! If the world's media had nothing but a press statement from the Met, it would be getting much less coverage.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> EDL Facebook page currently getting >2 likes/second - seen as response to this afternoon's events


"Again please be patient we have 3000+ new page likes in a very short space of time, Our thought must be with the dead soldier and his family, We will never surrender to this SCUM"

here we go...


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

Barking_Mad said:


> I said earlier it had a fucked up GTA feeling to it, even more so with the dudes just stood around waiting for the police to arrive and being talked to by people in the street walking past. The old woman with the shopping basket walking past as if nothing had happened. Surreal.


 

Yeh.

It's like, the disconnectionion between the images of them standing around and the headline of it being a major terrorist incident.


----------



## Roadkill (May 22, 2013)

little_legs said:


> Slow news day, that's why it's all over the press.


 
A soldier being hacked up with a meat cleaver by a bloke who then talks to the cameras with his hands dropping blood, and is subsequently shot by armed police, would be newsworthy whatever the day tbf.

The thing I'm finding a bit bizarre is the way people are going on about Woolwich being a rough area, as if that has anything to do with it. I used to live five minutes walk from where this happened and it could be a bit sketchy round there, but this isn't your average street stabbing, shooting or whatever - it's evidently a targeted attack on a soldier. More like when the IRA blew up the pub across the road from the barracks, really...



SpookyFrank said:


> Good riddance then.


 
You really are a nasty little shit, aren't you.


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:
			
		

> I am not disputing that in any way. I don't know how to put it. Something about the way it is being presented just doesn't sit right with me. I won't say any more than that though because it is based on nothing really.



Some of the things that happened today have never happened before on these shores - killers stood by victims asking to be filmed, for example, footage reaching press with hours - its going to look strange on TV.


----------



## little_legs (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's not why it's all over the news at all. Do you really think this would be down the order on any other day? Really?


 
it deserves the coverage, no argument about that. I was responding to J Ed's post.


----------



## likesfish (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> EDL Facebook page currently getting >2 likes/second - seen as response to this afternoon's events



Going to be a bad week to be brownish


----------



## Ranbay (May 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> EDL Facebook page currently getting >2 likes/second - seen as response to this afternoon's events


 
Yesterday





Today


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 22, 2013)

there could be violence after this.


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:
			
		

> there could be violence after this.



That was intentional, right?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

All those likes but no-one more talking about them? (I really don't understand how the 'talking about' thing works, tbh)


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

My mum is a motherfucking badass


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

Lee Jasper seems to be getting people scared based on what he has read on twitter https://twitter.com/LeeJasper/status/337300830061473793

Doesn't seem like the EDL have actually gone to Woolwich yet...


----------



## Das Uberdog (May 22, 2013)

a while ago wasn't there a thread on here about two black Muslims from Woolwich (or somewhere near) who set up their own alcohol prohibition area, and were confiscating cans and bottles off pissed locals on their way home? can't find the thread now, but pondered that they might be contenders for this


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Going to be a bad week to be brownish





not-bono-ever said:


> there could be violence after this.


 
There have been worries about and predictions of reprisals following previous outbreaks of violent Islamonuttery in Britain, but so far it's come to very little.  A window of a mosque broken here, rudeness in the street there...


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

Das Uberdog said:


> a while ago wasn't there a thread on here about two black Muslims from Woolwich (or somewhere near) who set up their own alcohol prohibition area, and were confiscating cans and bottles off pissed locals on their way home? can't find the thread now, but pondered that they might be contenders for this


 
They were Asian, not black, IIRC


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 22, 2013)

where to said:


> That was intentional, right?


 
just looking at a millwall forum and theyre getting worked up


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

So what's a good way to let Muslims in this country know that lots of non-Muslims don't bear them any ill will?  Serious question. How do we counteract the EDL message? Even it's just a FB like or a tweet or something.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

Das Uberdog said:


> a while ago wasn't there a thread on here about two black Muslims from Woolwich (or somewhere near) who set up their own alcohol prohibition area, and were confiscating cans and bottles off pissed locals on their way home? can't find the thread now, but pondered that they might be contenders for this


Don't think they were black.


----------



## 89 Til Infinity (May 22, 2013)

Das Uberdog said:


> a while ago wasn't there a thread on here about two black Muslims from Woolwich (or somewhere near) who set up their own alcohol prohibition area, and were confiscating cans and bottles off pissed locals on their way home? can't find the thread now, but pondered that they might be contenders for this


 
I believe this may have been in Whitechapel.


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:
			
		

> just looking at a millwall forum and theyre getting worked up



I would be more surprised if they didn't.


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:
			
		

> So what's a good way to let Muslims in this country know that lots of non-Muslims don't bear them any ill will?  Serious question. How do we counteract the EDL message? Even it's just a FB like or a tweet or something.



Carry on as normal.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 22, 2013)

https://twitter.com/SiibillamLaw



> My mum is a motherfucking badass


 






Mad how this stuff is all over twitter.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

89 Til Infinity said:


> I believe this may have been in Whitechapel.


It was.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:


> just looking at a millwall forum and theyre getting worked up


Why?? Is there a coke shortage?


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Mad how this stuff is all over twitter.


 
this is the modern world


----------



## likesfish (May 22, 2013)

One of those fools was white even ginger if I remember correctly I for one would have no problem if they got a savage beating out of this.
 But it wont be stupid cunts like that who will get it. More than odds on it will be a sikh or hindu who gets stabbed.
  Bit like the russian student  who got stabbed in brighton because germany  kicked us out of the euro footy match


----------



## Das Uberdog (May 22, 2013)

89 Til Infinity said:


> I believe this may have been in Whitechapel.


getting my W's mixed up


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> this is the modern world


 
It's just the way communication is in the hands of ordinary people, it's great.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So what's a good way to let Muslims in this country know that lots of non-Muslims don't bear them any ill will?  Serious question. How do we counteract the EDL message? Even it's just a FB like or a tweet or something.



Er...Live alongside them as friends and work mates?

I think tweets and likes ultimately have their limits. But then I'm a bit old school.


----------



## J Ed (May 22, 2013)

Attack on Woolwich Mosque apparently https://twitter.com/Majstar7/status/337304991872188416/photo/1

Edit - Gillingham Mosque, I should really read things more carefully..


----------



## shifting gears (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So what's a good way to let Muslims in this country know that lots of non-Muslims don't bear them any ill will?  Serious question. How do we counteract the EDL message? Even it's just a FB like or a tweet or something.



For starters let any idiots at work/the pub etc know that they're spouting racist, reactionary bollocks when they're straying into 'muslamiterroristjihad' territory


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Terrorism - in the mainstream use - is an act _designed _to cause terror among the general public and forcefully impose a course of action on them/the state. After beheading someone the beheader here said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.


Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
> I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?


Just go away.


----------



## Barking_Mad (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Attack on Woolwich Mosque apparently https://twitter.com/Majstar7/status/337304991872188416/photo/1



Gillingham


----------



## Libertad (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Attack on Woolwich Mosque apparently https://twitter.com/Majstar7/status/337304991872188416/photo/1


 
Dead link. Gillingham btw.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Attack on Woolwich Mosque apparently https://twitter.com/Majstar7/status/337304991872188416/photo/1


 
Err.. the caption below that says "A male ran into Gillingham Mosque in #KENT"


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

cdg said:


> The fact he said ''remove your government'' would indicate it was terrorism.




oooh - like everyone and their dog doesn't know to say that to make it "terrorist"


----------



## shifting gears (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
> I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?



Are you trolling? Or just properly daft?


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Attack on Woolwich Mosque apparently https://twitter.com/Majstar7/status/337304991872188416/photo/1


 


> A male ran into *Gillingham* Mosque in #*KENT* & smashed the book case & windows. Got caught by police @*diarf9* #*woolwich* pic.twitter.com/pdVdf2MzLt


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Attack on Woolwich Mosque apparently https://twitter.com/Majstar7/status/337304991872188416/photo/1


 

Gillingham Kent, going off that link


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper is like that woman trying to pay her parking ticket in jam

no it isn't a parking meter its a car


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:
			
		

> Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
> I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.
> 
> Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?



But if they DID have a real, official Jihad membership card, would it be terrorism then? Tricky.


----------



## redsquirrel (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
> I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?


Oh piss off you idiot.


----------



## Roadkill (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
> I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?


 
What?


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

shifting gears said:


> Are you trolling? Or just properly daft?


 

properly daft


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> oooh - like everyone and their dog doesn't know to say that to make it "terrorist"


 
I don't understand what you mean?


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2013)

she's a prick, ignore her.


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> Yeh.
> 
> It's like, *the disconnect* between the images of them standing around and the headline of it being a major terrorist incident.


"Disconnect" is a verb FFS.  There's a perfectly good noun to use, namely "disconnection".  Just because Radio 4 have started saying it doesn't mean it's "cool".  

With all that's happened today, at least *I've* got my priorities straight.


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

> Brian Whelan ‏@brianwhelanhack
> 5m
> Edl marching now and chanting, heard glass smash


 
He's in Woolwich I believe.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2013)

I don't know what to be more impacted by - the tinderbox of lunatic hatred or the equally impressive stalwart of sanity and decency.

I haven't seen much MSM coverage, but I suspect that their appetite to fill space is leading to some irresponsible sensationalism.

There needs to be perspective about this being 1 death, no matter how horrid or unusual the circs.

Disproportion is the act of vultures and opportunists, but they prefer to dwell on their own righteousness, as if other people are somehow less horrified or perturbed.


----------



## spring-peeper (May 22, 2013)

shifting gears said:


> Are you trolling? Or just properly daft?




No, but I am seriously worried about why it is so important to you for it to be terrorism.
Boston marathon was terrorism.  This is about a bunch of yahoos wanting publicity.




Anyway, good luck with this.  Alerts, etc., what ever - I'm out of this thread.  I'll follow it elsewhere.


imo - the argument on the first page about whether or not this was crack or pcp(?) induced was the most interesting part of the thread.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
> I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.


 
Yes because they don't go around chopping peoples heads off whilst saying it



> Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?


 
Nobody is saying they were, but terrorism isn't just setting off bombs, drive by shootings etc. It appears from footage that there was religious and political motive.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Sounds like a quote that anyone wanting to play terrorist might say.
> I've heard identical if not similar posts on here, that does not may you terrorists.
> 
> 
> Why is it so hard to entertain the fact this was not some jihad out to destroy London?



Why is it so hard to understand that blowing up a big bomb is not the only form of terrorism?

So they may be unaffiliated and have purposely kept the death toll down (they may yet prove to be affiliated, but I reckon not...), but its quite clear they were using violence to further a political agenda. What more do you want from such an act, before it fits your definition?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2013)

Conspiranoids are of course toying with this and that, with nothing as troubling as evidence or more substantial than guess work.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

er?


*Brooks Newmark MPVerified account*‏@*TweetBrooks*​
Local mosque in Braintree attacked by man with knives + incendiary device. Man arrested. No one injured. Many thx 2 police 4 swift response.


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

> Daniel Trilling
> ‏@trillingual
> EDL marching outside Woolwich DLR. About 60. Throwing bottles. Police lining up. Many black ppl in neighbourhood running away across square


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> "Disconnect" is a verb FFS. There's a perfectly good noun to use, namely "disconnection". Just because Radio 4 have started saying it doesn't mean it's "cool".
> 
> With all that's happened today, at least *I've* got my priorities straight.


 

That's what I said.

But mark my words, I am going to haunt you from now until the end of time and correct every single grammatical error and incorrect spelling that you will ever make. I will be your personal pedant. You will rue the day you corrected me.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

Das Uberdog said:


> getting my W's mixed up


 
Those Ws all look the same.


----------



## Libertad (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> No, but I am seriously worried about why it is so important to you for it to be terrorism.
> Boston marathon was terrorism. This is about a bunch of yahoos wanting publicity.
> 
> 
> ...


 
This poster is depriving a village somewhere of its idiot.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

Can we have a big hand to T. Blair for breeding terrorism in Woolwich? I'd like to know what he's got to say about it. If I live long enough I'll be celebrating his death just as cheerfully as Thatcher's.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> oooh - like everyone and their dog doesn't know to say that to make it "terrorist"



If you're confused comparing this to 9/11 and Boston let us tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. 

There are still, 30 years later, no litter bins (trash cans) on the streets of Central London because of IRA terrorism.


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

killer b said:


> she's a prick, ignore her.


 
ah, ok.


----------



## Roadkill (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> No, but I am seriously worried about why it is so important to you for it to be terrorism.


 
Wtf is it if not terrorism you dunce?



> *Brian Whelan* ‏@*brianwhelanhack*  6m
> Edl rioting now http://yfrog.us/1aftkmixpsybeppgbapqitbtz …


----------



## Corax (May 22, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> No, but I am seriously worried about why it is so important to you for it to be terrorism.


Again, can we define terrorism please?

Since the video came out, then it's pretty clear it was a politically motivated attack.  Some may view that as terrorism.

However, some may view terrorism as something in some way organised.  This couple may have been acting entirely independently.  If so, and under that definition, it's _not_ terrorism.

There's no point arguing over whether it is or isn't unless there's at least a shared understanding of what the word means.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

weepiper said:


> > Daniel Trilling
> > ‏@trillingual
> > EDL marching outside Woolwich DLR. About 60. Throwing bottles. Police lining up. Many black ppl in neighbourhood running away across square


I'm _mildly_ tempted to go down and see what's actually going on.

But I'm comfy on my sofa and still need to shower


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

If they can only get 60 out tonight (and there's every chance this is just ordinary bods rather than anyone else) then they have pretty much nothing.


----------



## shagnasty (May 22, 2013)

I wonder if or how long it will be before they are questioned .Obviously top boys /girls to question them


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

confused blurry video of EDL/police here

http://telly.com/ONGXOS


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

Anyone else having trouble viewing the twitter video regarding the EDL?


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 22, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Anyone else having trouble viewing the twitter video regarding the EDL?


his 3rd attemt works OK


----------



## kenny g (May 22, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Anyone else having trouble viewing the twitter video regarding the EDL?


Hardly a video, more a blend of smudges and the sound of a broken bottle.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

What a bunch of clueless fucking dickwads.


----------



## Part 2 (May 22, 2013)

EDL are probably pissed off that the killer is wearing a Stone Island hat.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm _mildly_ tempted to go down and see what's actually going on.
> 
> But I'm comfy on my sofa and still need to shower



You lazy scumbag. Urban's man on the street sofa


----------



## redsquirrel (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> If they can only get 60 out tonight (and there's every chance this is just ordinary bods rather than anyone else) then they have pretty much nothing.


Yes, as bad as it is it just proves that they are dead.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> https://twitter.com/SiibillamLaw
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



> > *Mum talked down Woolwich terrorists who told her: "We want to start a war in London tonight"*
> >
> > *Exclusive: A cub scout leader confronted terrorists just seconds after they had beheaded a soldier asking them to hand over their weapons and warning them: "It is only you versus many people, you are going to lose."*
> >
> > ...


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

I've never watched 10 O'Clock Live, curious to see how they deal with it.

Ah, because "events are still unfolding we're going to concentrate on the week's other news". Probably for the best, tbh...


----------



## kenny g (May 22, 2013)

Would be well up for assisting with preventing 2013's crystal night but got an early start.


----------



## Roadkill (May 22, 2013)

From the BBC news ticker - no link as yet:



> WOOLWICH ATTACK: Met Commissioner Bernard Hogan-Howe confirms two men have been arrested


----------



## Ranbay (May 22, 2013)

https://twitter.com/jessicaaharrisx/status/337281140002004993


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> You lazy scumbag. Urban's man on the street sofa


Hey, it's been a long day!


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

Could somebody quickly summarize the arrest? How much is known? Were they shot? Are they reported to be seriously injured?


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> https://twitter.com/jessicaaharrisx/status/337281140002004993


 

they have muslamic rayguns in islam


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Hey, it's been a long day!



Oh, you poor sausage


----------



## red rose (May 22, 2013)

I'm finally up to date with the thread having only got home from work an hour ago.

Having just seen the videos of the EDL scum outside Woolwich station I'm really struggling not to go down there. I feel like there needs to be a peaceful showing from the locals to make it clear that the EDL and their moronic racist ilk are not welcome. But I dont imagine there is any way of doing that


----------



## Roadkill (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> Could somebody quickly summarize the arrest? How much is known? Were they shot? Are they reported to be seriously injured?


 
I assume the two men arrested are the suspects, both of whom were shot by police, but not fatally.  No more details than that atm.


----------



## cantsin (May 22, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:


> "Again please be patient we have 3000+ new page likes in a very short space of time, Our thought must be with the dead soldier and his family, We will never surrender to this SCUM"
> 
> here we go...


 

just tried looking at the likes on theit FB and f5 ing a few times ...they're not exaggerating


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> https://twitter.com/jessicaaharrisx/status/337281140002004993


 


The responses are great though


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

In a mild attempt to be serious, I honestly don't know what I'd do if I went down there. I kinda feel any 'action' would get lost in the chaos, and that's before I even work out what action I could take.

Definitely not 'proper urbanz'.


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

police blocking road to mosque






https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/337311738666037249/photo/1/large


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> In a mild attempt to be serious, I honestly don't know what I'd do if I went down there. I kinda feel any 'action' would get lost in the chaos, and that's before I even work out what action I could take.
> 
> Definitely not 'proper urbanz'.


 

you could always chat to them about eurovision


----------



## kenny g (May 22, 2013)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html is one amazing story. That woman has real guts.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> you could always chat to them about eurovision


They probably voted for Armenia


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2013)

i reckon mocking people for their lack of geographical knowledge is definitely the way to fight racism & islamophobia.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

That piece is well worth a read




> A mother-of-two described tonight how she put her own life on the line by trying to persuade the soldier’s murderers to hand over their weapons.





> Cub scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett selflessly engaged the terrorists in conversation and kept her nerve as one of them told her: “We want to start a war in London tonight.”
> Mrs Loyau-Kennett, 48, from Cornwall, was one of the first people on the scene after the two Islamic extremists butchered a soldier in Woolwich, south east London.
> She was photographed by onlookers confronting one of the attackers who was holding a bloodied knife.
> 
> ...


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 22, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> https://twitter.com/jessicaaharrisx/status/337281140002004993


 

poor jessica, being targeted by sarcastic smart arses


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The responses are great though


The Americanization of Britain is four heels


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> In a mild attempt to be serious, I honestly don't know what I'd do if I went down there. I kinda feel any 'action' would get lost in the chaos, and that's before I even work out what action I could take.
> 
> Definitely not 'proper urbanz'.



I meant more eyewitnessing than action but anyway, sorry


----------



## cdg (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> they have muslamic rayguns in islam


 
They have them over here... Every time you walk down the bastard street it's all you see.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> I meant more eyewitnessing than action but anyway, sorry


Oh no, I know, that wasn't directed at you, just following on from the point.

Like red rose says, you feel like you should do something, but I've honestly no idea what. I could go down there and shake my fist and shout "go away you rotters", but it would be as ineffectual as it sounds. If there was something I thought would make an actual impact I might... fuck it, I probably wouldn't. Bit of a coward when it all comes down to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

JHE said:


> Islamonut murder is one way to get your 15 mins of fame.
> 
> Horrific though it is, I suppose it could have been even worse. If the murderers had been determined to maximise the carnage, they could easily have left the street littered with dismembered corpses, but it seems that after murdering some squaddie these gentlemen were content to pose for photos, wait for Plod and then launch a hopeless attack, knowing that Plod almost certainly had guns and would know how to use them.
> 
> This horror illustrates a point many have made for years: that if you are determined to murder, you don't need to spend any time in training camps in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia or any other exotic location. Given the will, the ruthlessness and easily available weapons, anyone can commit an atrocity.


do you know quite how tiring it is chopping up one unwilling person let alone a dozen?


----------



## paulhackett (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> In a mild attempt to be serious, I honestly don't know what I'd do if I went down there. I kinda feel any 'action' would get lost in the chaos, and that's before I even work out what action I could take.
> 
> Definitely not 'proper urbanz'.


 
Put on some Madness and challenge them to a dance off?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Oh no, I know, that wasn't directed at you, just following on from the point.
> 
> Like red rose says, you feel like you should do something, but I've honestly no idea what. I could go down there and shake my fist and shout "go away you rotters", but it would be as ineffectual as it sounds. If there was something I thought would make an actual impact I might... fuck it, I probably wouldn't. Bit of a coward when it all comes down to it.


i don't know that shaking your fist at armed plod would do much good.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know that shaking your fist at armed plod would do much good.


Oh, you...


----------



## Belushi (May 22, 2013)

Just catching up with all this, know the area well - I lived in halls thirty seconds away from where he was killed.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

EDL are out on the streets in Woolwich

Channel 4 news freelancer has some on video here:

http://telly.com/ONNC8D


----------



## likesfish (May 22, 2013)

Its an isamic based terrrorist attack.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

C4 News draws parallels with a 2007 plot to behead a soldier in Birmingham http://www.channel4.com/news/woolwich-attack-chilling-echoes-of-a-previous-plot


----------



## DRINK? (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> That piece is well worth a read




Meanwhile every other cunt stood safely back videoing it and taking pics. Ghouls


----------



## Stoat Boy (May 22, 2013)

Horrible event on so many levels. Must admit to being rather taken aback by just how strong the reaction has been from people who I would not have considered to be the types to be yelling for blood and revenge. Oddly enough, despite my own right wing stance on many levels, in someways I see what happened today as having at least some level of justification or at least more so than those scumbags who blew up the Tube trains on July 7th 2005. These men killed a solider. It was barbaric and everything else but they did not then go on to just kill anybody else around them. I hope they get banged up for ever and have a shit time of it because they are still cowardly bastards but in the wider scheme of things I can why this is somehow different to what has happened in the past.

However I also sense, and its just pure instinct, that there is the potential for a massive back-lash over this. Even more so than if it had been an attack on civilians. For a lot of white working class people there is a strong link with the armed forces and as such, allied with a whole host of other reasons/paranoia (delete as per your own political stance/class), there seems to be a strong almost primal response to this, at least from what I am seeing in my own social media world.

I would guess the next 48 hours are crucial. Get through that without a major event and maybe this will just fade away but given the political response with COBRA and so on my own assumption (and it is just that) is that I would assume a senario such as this must have been gamed out in some detail and that its down as one with a real potential for kicking off a whole series of public disorder events. Lets just hope it rains in a lot of places.


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Kicking off in Woolwich according to tweets

Clash now on Woolwich New Road. EDL throwing glass missiles at police

@bnpolice


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Recognise the pub, that St. George's flag is always flying. Always wanted to think it didn't mean what it would now appear to mean.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Not again.


----------



## Belushi (May 22, 2013)

Some of the pubs in that manor are well racist, one once refused to serve us because my brothers girlfriend was black.


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> you could always chat to them about eurovision


 
Don't forget to discuss Turkey's withdrawal in response to the lesbian kiss.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

More video from Channel 4 cameraman. Can't embed:

http://telly.com/ONGXOS


----------



## silverfish (May 22, 2013)

Give me the definitive calm the fuck down or fuck off status to put on my Facebook 50%  of my friends have broken through the thin crust of modern values they exhibit and are ranting dreadful knee jerk racist shit


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Recognise the pub, that St. George's flag is always flying. Always wanted to think it didn't mean what it would now appear to mean.


it's an auld naval signal meaning 'here be rascists'


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 22, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You may equate black with crack. Me, I've seen enough wankers of all creeds on crack to know better. The actions thusfar described though are consistent with crackhead tossbags.


 
I've only read up to this post before replying, so apols if it's been dealt with already, but why've you got such a downer on crackheads?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

silverfish said:


> Give me the definitive calm the fuck down or fuck off status to put on my Facebook 50% of my friends have broken through the thin crust of modern values they exhibit and are ranting dreadful knee jerk racist shit


what about something like 'dreadful kneejerk racist shit is still racist' or similar.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Daily Star

What a wankpaper

http://twitpic.com/csh579


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've only read up to this post before replying, so apols if it's been dealt with already, but why've you got such a downer on crackheads?


i thought everyone had a downer on crackheads. and junkies.


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Daily Star
> 
> What a wankpaper
> 
> http://twitpic.com/csh579


 
That doesn't look at all real


----------



## Diamond (May 22, 2013)

Reports that one of the attackers was of Nigerian origin / ethnicity would point principally to Boko Haram.


----------



## weepiper (May 22, 2013)

> Daniel Trilling ‏@trillingual
> 2m
> Larger EDL crowd now - 100 running thru main square. Joined by teens. Man in balaclava hiding what looks like weapon under sweatshirt.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> That doesn't look at all real


 
oh


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Diamond said:


> Reports that one of the attackers was of Nigerian origin / ethnicity would point principally to Boko Haram.


 
I was just wondering where exactly he was from.


----------



## YouSir (May 22, 2013)

Still no word about any opposition to EDL in Woolwich?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

I've got it! I'll whack some Cat Stevens on my iPhone, run down there with my little battery powered speaker and let rip!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Daily Star
> 
> What a wankpaper
> 
> http://twitpic.com/csh579


yeh. but it's only 35p. you get what you pay for, in news as in anything else.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Knifeman arrested trying to commit arson at a mosque in Essex: http://www.bnowire.com/inbox/?id=1904


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> oh


 
I might be, I thought that cos it looks amateur, it is The Star though


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

weepiper said:


> > Daniel Trilling ‏@trillingual
> > 2m
> > Larger EDL crowd now - 100 running thru main square. Joined by teens. Man in balaclava hiding what looks like weapon under sweatshirt.


Fuck's sake


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I've got it! I'll whack some Cat Stevens on my iPhone, run down there with my little battery powered speaker and let rip!


i don't know what anyone else would do but if i heard that sort of racket i'd fucking stomp on the speakers myself.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I've got it! I'll whack some Cat Stevens on my iPhone, run down there with my little battery powered speaker and let rip!


I reckon you will need a Minirig for this one.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know what anyone else would do but if i heard that sort of racket i'd fucking stomp on the speakers myself.


At least they'd be united...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Diamond said:


> Reports that one of the attackers was of Nigerian origin / ethnicity would point principally to Boko Haram.


only to the racists among us. you do know that there is no one nigerian ethnicity, right? and not all nigerians are boko haram. not to mention yer man on the news hardly sounded nigerian, he sounded english.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I reckon you will need a Minirig for this one.


Well, if I could borrow a long extension lead from someone I could use my laptop speakers?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought everyone had a downer on crackheads. and junkies.


 
True, but on reading the attempted beheading of a soldier, my first thought wouldn't be "Fucking crackheads", as Banhof's seemed to be. There's loads of crackheads running around up to all kinds of nonsense. Heads seldom get chopped off in your average crackheads day to day milieu though.


----------



## butchersapron (May 22, 2013)

Diamond said:


> Reports that one of the attackers was of Nigerian origin / ethnicity would point principally to Boko Haram.


Not if, as the story suggests, he has been living here for years and was radicalised here in 2003 by al-muhaj. Why on earth would Boko Haram get involved in this over here?


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> I was just wondering where exactly he was from.


Newsnight are saying that a source claims he has lived in the UK for 6 years, was radicalised by al muhajiroun, and was known to the security services because last year he was detained on his way to a training camp. That's from memory, probably got some details wrong, don't have a recording of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> True, but on reading the attempted beheading of a soldier, my first thought wouldn't be "Fucking crackheads", as Banhof's seemed to be. There's loads of crackheads running around up to all kinds of nonsense. Heads seldom get chopped off in your average crackheads day to day milieu though.


crankheads, on the other hand...


----------



## Diamond (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> only to the racists among us. you do know that there is no one nigerian ethnicity, right? and not all nigerians are boko haram. not to mention yer man on the news hardly sounded nigerian, he sounded english.


 
Yes, I was aware of that.

What is the relevance, if any, of your post?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Diamond said:


> Yes, I was aware of that.
> 
> What is the relevance, if any, of your post?


yeh  if you knew that you wouldn't have posted what you did. stop trying to make yourself out to be at all knowledgeable when saying 'yeh i knew that' after the event only makes you out to be a plonker.


----------



## Belushi (May 22, 2013)

As an aside, the victim was killed near the Kings Arms which was blown up by the IRA in the 1970's and was one of the bombings the Guildford Four were fitted up for.


----------



## Stoat Boy (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not if, as the story suggests, he has been living here for years and was radicalised here in 2003 by al-haj. Why on earth would Boko Haram get involved in this over here?


 
I have been wondering if the Woolwich factor in this attack might be more to do with Belmarsh than the army barracks ? Only a hunch but I understand that the radicalization of prisoners was always considered a bigger threat than what has been going on in the Universities.


----------



## Diamond (May 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not if, as the story suggests, he has been living here for years and was radicalised here in 2003 by al-haj. Why on earth would Boko Haram get involved in this over here?


 
Was thinking more of likely venues for someone with Nigerian roots to be radicalised rather than directed from.  There's talk of Al-Shabaab now instead.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Newsnight are saying that a source claims he has lived in the UK for 6 years, was radicalised by al muhajiroun, and was known to the security services because last year he was detained on his way to a training camp. That's from memory, probably got some details wrong, don't have a recording of it.


 
I'm watching that.  He was talking about things in "our land".  I didn't know that Nigeria had a significant recent violent past.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 22, 2013)

@brianwhelanhack Brian Whelan
Cops surrounding square, Edl milling about spoiling for a fight, helicopter up and scene of terror attack up road


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Stoat Boy said:


> I have been wondering if the Woolwich factor in this attack might be more to do with Belmarsh than the army barracks ? Only a hunch but I understand that the radicalization of prisoners was always considered a bigger threat than what has been going on in the Universities.


Seems unlikely - I'm guessing more 'let's go kill a soldier -> ok, where's the nearest barracks' really.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

> Jake Corke ‏@JakeCorke
> 5m
> Before any slates the EDL blacks an pakis are in it, there all for this country an getting the respect we deserve as a nation #edl


Stay classy...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Diamond said:


> Was thinking more of likely venues for someone with Nigerian roots to be radicalised rather than directed from. There's talk of Al-Shabaab now instead.


and no mention in your post that nigeria is in west africa and al-s more commonly associated with somalia on, er, the east coast. but you'll be along in a moment to say you knew that all along.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> I'm watching that. He was talking about things in "our land". I didn't know that Nigeria had a significant recent violent past.


 
Or Western intervention.  But maybe he is talking more about other (nearby?) African countries.  My knowledge/ geography of the continent isn't great.


----------



## Ranbay (May 22, 2013)




----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> I'm watching that. He was talking about things in "our land". I didn't know that Nigeria had a significant recent violent past.


no surprise there. from six hours ago: http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/international/At-least-23-killed-in-central-Nigeria-violence_66182279


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> I'm watching that. He was talking about things in "our land". I didn't know that Nigeria had a significant recent violent past.


 
Nigeria has a significant violent present.

When the Islamic gentleman talks of "our land" he is referring to lands dominated by Islam (Dar ul-Islam), not only or especially those parts of Nigeria that are dominated by Islam.


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Just did a search on Twitter for "mosque", calls all over twitter for mosques to be burned.

There are voices of reason though



> threatening mosques, insulting entire faiths, and making generalisations doesn't make you patriotic. It makes you a moron.


https://twitter.com/BrettBall


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


>


what no 'byob'? for shame


----------



## kenny g (May 22, 2013)

When he talks of "our land" I assumed he referred to the land of the muslims. The fact he may be of Nigerian origin probably has a lot less to do with anything than the Al-Maj currents he has been mixing in.


----------



## thriller (May 22, 2013)

it's too cold to be marching outside this time of night.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

JHE said:


> Nigeria has a significant violent present.
> 
> When the Islamic gentleman talks of "our land" he is referring to lands dominated by Islam (Dar ul-Islam).


do keep up.


----------



## Stoat Boy (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Seems unlikely - I'm guessing more 'let's go kill a soldier -> ok, where's the nearest barracks' really.


 
I am sure you are right but surely an attack on a solider at say Horseguards parade or some such would make more sense from the PR front ? Its obvious they wanted the world to know why they did it but there is very little real kudos in running some poor sod over and then hacking him to death. Attack a solider up in the West End and the world knows about it. But in Woolwich ? Potentially just next weeks chip paper.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no surprise there.


 
No idea what that means.


----------



## thriller (May 22, 2013)

i really want to follow this thread but need to go to bed. got to get up at 6 tomorrow


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

thriller said:


> it's too cold to be marching outside this time of night.


It's ok, they all have warm wooly hats.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Stoat Boy said:


> I am sure you are right but surely an attack on a solider at say Horseguards parade or some such would make more sense from the PR front ? Its obvious they wanted the world to know why they did it but there is very little real kudos in running some poor sod over and then hacking him to death. Attack a solider up in the West End and the world knows about it. But in Woolwich ? Potentially just next weeks chip paper.


you haven't been watching the news today, have you?


----------



## spanglechick (May 22, 2013)

you have a combination of a very poor area (unlike much of london, you've got to go a bloody long way (the other side of greenwich) to find a posh bit), and ethnic tension which you don't get in, say, peckham, because of the proximity to the long-term BNP heartlands.  growing up in such an area, would, i imagine, create fertile grounds for becoming radicalised.


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Stoat Boy said:


> I am sure you are right but surely an attack on a solider at say Horseguards parade or some such would make more sense from the PR front ? Its obvious they wanted the world to know why they did it but there is very little real kudos in running some poor sod over and then hacking him to death. Attack a solider up in the West End and the world knows about it. But in Woolwich ? Potentially just next weeks chip paper.


In case you hadn't noticed the world does know about it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Has just occurred to me, if EDL mob get out of hand, this will just be more ammo ('scuse the pun) to support the police and their requests for water cannon


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

8115 said:


> No idea what that means.


you said you weren't aware that nigeria has a rather bloody recent past. i said your ignorance didn't surprise me. do you understand that?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


>


 

Wankers


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Ongoing reports of attacks on Muslims: https://twitter.com/TellMamaUK


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Has just occurred to me, if EDL mob get out of hand, this will just be more ammo ('scuse the pun) to support the police and their requests for water cannon


no it won't.


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you said you weren't aware that nigeria has a rather bloody recent past. i said your ignorance didn't surprise me. do you understand that?


 
I didn't think there was any need for it.


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> you have a combination of a very poor area (unlike much of london, you've got to go a bloody long way (the other side of greenwich) to find a posh bit), and ethnic tension which you don't get in, say, peckham, because of the proximity to the long-term BNP heartlands. growing up in such an area, would, i imagine, create fertile grounds for becoming radicalised.


 
For both "sides"


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

thriller said:


> i really want to follow this thread but need to go to bed. got to get up at 6 tomorrow


 

same


----------



## kenny g (May 22, 2013)

The EDL mob appears to have fizzled from 100 to ten to fuck all.


----------



## spanglechick (May 22, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> For both "sides"


oh absolutely.


----------



## BlackArab (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Has just occurred to me, if EDL mob get out of hand, this will just be more ammo ('scuse the pun) to support the police and their requests for water cannon


 
it's not the water cannon that has me worried right now


----------



## Frumious B. (May 22, 2013)

George Galloway has tweeted


> "This sickening atrocity in London is exactly what we are paying the same kind of people to do in Syria"


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

kenny g said:


> The EDL mob appears to have fizzled from 100 to ten to fuck all.


 

where did they all come from? where did they go?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no it won't.


 
I mean the police will probably try to use it as an excuse.  I didn't mean it was justification to get water cannon


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

kenny g said:


> The EDL mob appears to have fizzled from 100 to ten to fuck all.


Last orders, innit.


----------



## love detective (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> where did they all come from? where did they go?


 
cotton eye joe


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:
			
		

> George Galloway has tweeted



Google "Syria rebel eats heart"


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> you have a combination of a very poor area (unlike much of london, you've got to go a bloody long way (the other side of greenwich) to find a posh bit), and ethnic tension which you don't get in, say, peckham, because of the proximity to the long-term BNP heartlands. growing up in such an area, would, i imagine, create fertile grounds for becoming radicalised.


always thought round woolwich, bermondsey more nf and the bnp heartland - in london terms - always been more welling when they had the bookshop there, and barking & dagenham.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> where did they all come from? where did they go?


 
last orders at the pub


----------



## editor (May 22, 2013)

kenny g said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html is one amazing story. That woman has real guts.


Blimey. And some.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I mean the police will probably try to use it as an excuse. I didn't mean it was justification to get water cannon


no they won't. the water cannon they've been using recently are too slow to be much use in a fast-moving situation.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

I don't understand how Procol Harum is being dragged into this he sounded cockernay to me


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> last orders at the pub


i thought that this sort of 11pm nonsense had ended with the liberalisation of the licensing laws in 2003


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

Riot police seen gearing up on Blackheath Common, apparently.


----------



## JHE (May 22, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> George Galloway has tweeted


 
Yes, sometimes GG says true and important things.  In this case, though, it should be added that the Baathists that GG prefers and their Hezbollocks allies, whom GG "glorifies", are equally disgusting.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought that this sort of 11pm nonsense had ended with the liberalisation of the licensing laws in 2003


 
Still lots of pubs that shut at 11.00pm Monday to Thursdays


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought that this sort of 11pm nonsense had ended with the liberalisation of the licensing laws in 2003


Most still stop serving between 11 and 12 on a weeknight.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2013)

The oddest part of that video is when the killer is talking to the camera and a woman nonchalantly wheels her shopping bag in his direction until she finally twigs something's not right. 

*sorry if this has already been mentioned


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Still lots of pubs that shut at 11.00pm Monday to Thursdays


so 1990s


----------



## Wilf (May 22, 2013)

In terms of how this plays out in Woolwich particularly, I was wondering about the 'conversations' that are going to play out over the next few days.  No doubt youth workers, unions, even Labour (???) will be dashing round doing a bit of damping down, but there aren't many old style authorities in play any more (particularly for the white working class who the EDL will be after).   I'm not that big on 'traditional authorities', but it leaves the way open for racists.


----------



## editor (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Still lots of pubs that shut at 11.00pm Monday to Thursdays


Some pubs don't even bother opening on Mondays.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no they won't. the water cannon they've been using recently are too slow to be much use in a fast-moving situation.


 
Too slow onthe streets, or too slow to arrive from N Ireland?


----------



## killer b (May 22, 2013)

love detective said:


> cotton eye joe


 
damn you. i was going to do that.


----------



## YouSir (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Riot police seen gearing up on Blackheath Common, apparently.


 
Source? That's a way away from Woolwich, can't imagine EDL walking it. Hope the fuckers aren't coming to Lewisham.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I don't understand how Procol Harum is being dragged into this he sounded cockernay to me


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

YouSir said:


> Source? That's a way away from Woolwich, can't imagine EDL walking it. Hope the fuckers aren't coming to Lewisham.


 
Yeah, wrong side of Greenwich

ETA: Just getting ready there?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Too slow onthe streets, or too slow to arrive from N Ireland?


both


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I don't understand how Procol Harum is being dragged into this he sounded cockernay to me


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

YouSir said:


> Source? That's a way away from Woolwich, can't imagine EDL walking it. Hope the fuckers aren't coming to Lewisham.


Friend on a bus texted me as they went past.


----------



## YouSir (May 22, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> Yeah, wrong side of Greenwich


 
Which makes it impossible really, they'd have to go through Greenwich which'd mean passing Desperados which has a late license till about 3am and a Wetherspoons opposite, would decimate their numbers through attrition.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 22, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> Yeah, wrong side of Greenwich
> 
> ETA: Just getting ready there?


Kinda what I thought but... ah, your edit, yeah, that's what I figure. Getting ready there, then heading into Woolwich.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 22, 2013)

The real power of this story has come from the video of the suspect. Without that it wouldn't have made the front page of The Woolwich Bugle. Well,perhaps it would have done tomorrow.

Video technology. Internet. It's like we were all there. We weren't. Very important to remember that.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Ongoing reports of attacks on Muslims: https://twitter.com/TellMamaUK


It's going to be a bit shit when the pubs kick out and more of the dickheads are on the street 

I can report that it is nice and quiet in Cheshire. We continue to be very shocked by Londons utter madness.


----------



## YouSir (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Friend on a bus texted me as they went past.


 
Hmh. Maybe just a police staging point before they hop in their vans?  Lewisham Islamic Center is nearby but it's the EDL, they don't do things like plan ahead do they?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> It's going to be a bit shit when the pubs kick out and more of the dickheads are on the street
> 
> I can report that it is nice and quiet in Cheshire. We continue to be very shocked by Londons utter madness.


nice and quiet in hackney


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 22, 2013)

YouSir said:


> Which makes it impossible really, they'd have to go through Greenwich which'd mean passing Desperados which has a late license till about 3am and a Wetherspoons opposite, would decimate their numbers through attrition.


 

it would be like the charge of the light brigade.


----------



## Belushi (May 22, 2013)

You wouldnt have to go through Greenwich at all to get to Woolwich from Blackheath - you'd go straight along the high road through Charlton, you'd be there in five minutes belting along in a riot van.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> it would be like the charge of the light brigade.


more like the charge of the light and bitter brigade


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

YouSir said:


> Which makes it impossible really, they'd have to go through Greenwich which'd mean passing Desperados which has a late license till about 3am and a Wetherspoons opposite, would decimate their numbers through attrition.


 
The police will melt away into pubs?


----------



## Buckaroo (May 22, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> it would be like the charge of the light brigade.


 
light ale brigade maybe?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Belushi said:


> You wouldnt have to go through Greenwich at all to get to Woolwich from Blackheath - you'd go straight along the High Road through Charlton, you'd be there in five minutes belting along in a riot van.


what i like about this thread is some south londoners' bizarre notions about the geography of south london


----------



## YouSir (May 22, 2013)

Belushi said:


> You wouldnt have to go through Greenwich at all to get to Woolwich from Blackheath - you'd go straight along the high road through Charlton, you'd be there in five minutes belting along in a riot van.


 
So, staging area then?


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> more like the charge of the light and bitter brigade


Or the pale aled brigade


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> more like the charge of the light and bitter brigade





Buckaroo said:


> light ale brigade maybe?


----------



## N_igma (May 22, 2013)

When you enlist in an army that goes around invading other people's countries don't be surprised that this sort of shit happens. Although the use of machetes is a tad excessive in my
opinion. A simple gun attack or car bomb would be much more humane...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> more like the charge of the light and bitter brigade





Buckaroo said:


> light ale brigade maybe?





friedaweed said:


> Or the pale aled brigade


----------



## YouSir (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> what i like about this thread is some south londoners' bizarre notions about the geography of south london


 
Having lived here all my life my entire geographical knowledge is based on bus routes and Wetherspoons. Even that only extends to SE London, send me to Clapham and I'm lost.


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>


Mines so much more lollable though. Pale as in milky skinned, aled as in drunk, brigade as in what you said earlier


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Mines so much more lollable though. Pale as in milky skinned, aled as in drunk, brigade as in what you said earlier


whenever i hear the word 'brigade' this famous auld song comes to mind


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> whenever i hear the word 'brigade' this famous auld song comes to mind



I prefer Christy's meself


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> both


 
They cost something like £1.3m each, and they want 3 of them


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Mines so much more lollable though. Pale as in milky skinned, aled as in drunk, brigade as in what you said earlier


you're not, i hope, thinking of singing sensation aled jones


----------



## Ranbay (May 22, 2013)

http://www.channel4.com/news/woolwich-terror-attack-edl-clash-police


----------



## smokedout (May 22, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> Yeah, wrong side of Greenwich
> 
> ETA: Just getting ready there?


 
they can go via charlton, takes five mins in vans this time of night


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I prefer Christy's meself


----------



## lizzieloo (May 22, 2013)

Fuck off with all the youtube


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

lizzieloo said:


> Fuck off with all the youtube


----------



## smokedout (May 22, 2013)

spanglechick said:


> you have a combination of a very poor area (unlike much of london, you've got to go a bloody long way (the other side of greenwich) to find a posh bit)


 
or walk down to the yuppy flats by the armouries, woolwich is gentrifying


----------



## stuff_it (May 22, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Friend on a bus texted me as they went past.


Honestly you wait all night for one EDL supporter and then three come along at once.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

smokedout said:


> or walk down to the yuppy flats by the armouries, woolwich is gentrifying


not woolwich too 

i was down in woolwich, birthplace of the famous dial square fc, a couple of years ago and i particularly enjoyed the wetherspoons there which opened well before the council offices did.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>




Doesn't work in Kerala.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Doesn't work in Kerala.


nor do i


----------



## friedaweed (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>



I'm having a whiskey to this one and turning it in for the night. I might wake up in a war in the morning and I've only got enough bog roll for one shite.


You be careful down their now Paddy


----------



## ibilly99 (May 22, 2013)

Life imitating art imitating life - terrible news though - RIP to the families and friends.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> http://www.channel4.com/news/woolwich-terror-attack-edl-clash-police



Little Tommy will have his biggest stiffy in a long while. He'll be absolutely buzzing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2013)

> *eithne horgan* ‏@*pixie_paisley*  8m
> "People shouldn't wear da burka it hides da face" Shouts *EDL* man wearing a balaclava, its like the pot calling the kettle black arse #*EDL*
> 
> *   Expand   *


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I'm having a whiskey to this one and turning it in for the night. I might wake up in a war in the morning and I've only got enough bog roll for one shite.
> 
> 
> You be careful down their now Paddy


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you're not, i hope, thinking of singing sensation aled jones




Better version


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Better version


----------



## Roadkill (May 22, 2013)

smokedout said:


> or walk down to the yuppy flats by the armouries, woolwich is gentrifying


 
That bit is, certainly, but it doesn't seem to have touched much of the rest of town yet. Given time it will, with Crossrail and the DLR link, and high housing costs further into London pushing people outwards. Charlton's going that way already, with large developments of flats being slung up along the lower road, or so I've noticed when I've been there recently.

Incidentally, if you walk along the road into the Royal Arsenal development from the east - parallel with the main road - the buildings block out part of the side of the main building, the inscription down the side of which then says ROYAL ARSE.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 22, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> That bit is, certainly, but it doesn't seem to have touched much of the rest of town yet. Given time it will, with Crossrail and the DLR link, and high housing costs further into London pushing people outwards. Charlton's going that way already, with large developments of flats being slung up along the lower road, or so I've noticed when I've been there recently.
> 
> Incidentally, if you walk along the road into the Royal Arsenal development from the east - parallel with the main road - the buildings block out part of the side of the main building, which then says ROYAL ARSE.








that's nothing. you'll see it says 'quim' at the top of the circle.


----------



## brogdale (May 22, 2013)

Corax said:


> The bolding's not important. I think you're wriggling tbh.


 
Seems like Robinson's call at 5.44 was a pretty good one, eh?

Why'd ya get so wound up about his post, (that I re-posted)?


----------



## editor (May 22, 2013)

Oh, music videos. How absolutely appropriate.


----------



## treelover (May 22, 2013)

yes, show some fucking decorum, a man has been decapitated...


----------



## smokedout (May 22, 2013)

editor said:


> Oh, music videos. How absolutely appropriate.


----------



## where to (May 22, 2013)

One of the two seems to be from Harold Hill/ Romford.


----------



## spanglechick (May 22, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> always thought round woolwich, bermondsey more nf and the bnp heartland - in london terms - always been more welling when they had the bookshop there, and barking & dagenham.


welling is pretty close.  and lots of NF stuff in erith, etc.  Or that was my impression, growing up round there.


----------



## shygirl (May 22, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Lee Jasper seems to be getting people scared based on what he has read on twitter https://twitter.com/LeeJasper/status/337300830061473793
> 
> Doesn't seem like the EDL have actually gone to Woolwich yet...


I understand why Lee would do that.  Looks like he was vindicated too.


----------



## twentythreedom (May 22, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> Mate ive seen alot of shit im my time but that has to rank sumwhere in the top 3
> 
> Shouldn't, but


You just got mentioned on Press Review on Sky news 

They were like "well wtf are the other two" 

Good work


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 22, 2013)

Looks like a mental case in the video. Probably just been released from psychiatric care. NHS is going to cop it over this.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 22, 2013)

Its a shame the police are not allowed to double tap. If they had been killed might be a lot less hate going round.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 22, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Its a shame the police are not allowed to double tap. If they had been killed might be a lot less hate going round.


 
How do you figure that?


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Looks like a mental case in the video. Probably just been released from psychiatric care. NHS is going to cop it over this.


I suspect it won't be long before the Daily Mail claims the killers were on benefits and blames the Welfare State for the victim's death.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Looks like a mental case in the video. Probably just been released from psychiatric care. NHS is going to cop it over this.



Really? Why? Obviously it's an extreme event but I thought it was quite chilling how together he appeared.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

lagtbd said:


> Really? Why? Obviously it's an extreme event but I thought it was quite chilling how together he appeared.


 
Exactly. Dead give away. Loony tunes.


----------



## J Ed (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I understand why Lee would do that. Looks like he was vindicated too.


 
Yep


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Exactly. Dead give away. Loony tunes.


 
So a sign of madness is not looking mad?


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Looks like a mental case in the video. Probably just been released from psychiatric care. NHS is going to cop it over this.


 
I would have thought that the spooks wiill have more immediate questions to answer...



> *23:33* There are reports that one of the attackers was last year stopped or arrested on his way to join al-Shabaab in Somalia, according to Newsnight.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> So a sign of madness is not looking mad?


 
Sign of a madness is killing people. Signs of a deeper madness is not really giving a fuck about it.

ITV are putting there name on every clip of this video on the internet. I hope they get what they deserve.


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> So a sign of madness is not looking mad?


It certainly can be. Context uber alles, ja?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> So a sign of madness is not looking mad?


No, it is falling foul of goldencitrone


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> So a sign of madness is not looking mad?


 
A sign of madness is chopping someone's head off in the street.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Exactly. Dead give away. Loony tunes.



Really. I don't think you can tell a thing from that video tbh. Not a thing. People are much calmer in extremis than is imagined. Look at everyone else, look how they're reacting, is everyone in Woolwich temporarily insane?


----------



## rowdyyates (May 23, 2013)

Has Al Qaeda claimed responsibility yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Sign of a madness is killing people. Signs of a deeper madness is not really giving a fuck about it.
> 
> ITV are putting there name on every clip of this video on the internet. I hope they get what they deserve.


So you don't like the brave squaddies just like yer man in woolwich


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

rowdyyates said:


> Has Al Qaeda claimed responsibility yet?


This bodes well.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (May 23, 2013)

killer b said:


> a friend just linked to this. mental if true.
> 
> https://twitter.com/BOYADEE


I can't read that.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> A sign of madness is chopping someone's head off in the street.



No it isn't. You are talking crap


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> A sign of madness is chopping someone's head off in the street.


 
Or believing that one sky fairy story is better than another one.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> So you don't like the brave squaddies just like yer man in woolwich


 
Can't say I have ever seen a video clip of a brave squaddie brandishing his weapon whilst talking to camera just seconds after slicing someone open. Most video clips I see of squaddies at war show them in a state of deep remorse and depression in such situations.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

lagtbd said:


> No it isn't. You are talking crap


 
I think he's a mentalist. Why do you think he did it?


----------



## killer b (May 23, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I can't read that.


 
you can, you're just being a dick.


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I can't read that.


Why are we not surprised? Unless it's a tech fault.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 23, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> How do you figure that?


 
Because the stupid fucks who might end up kicking to death some poor shit who looks Muslim would be gloating over the fact they were dead instead of whining about how their in a hospital.
As an ex nurse I feel sorry for the people who have to care for them. Not only would you have to care for someone proffesionally
who you may dislike and may dislike you. You will also be in a media whirlwind and have to deal with their guards.
  I looked after a prisoner in Florida whose armed guard hated him. We were never told what they had done ,but, I would have to stay in the room while he ate or the guard would spit in his food


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> A sign of madness is chopping someone's head off in the street.


 
Not a sign of extremist ideology then. You underestimate the dangers of fucked up beliefs if you just put it down to mental health issues, not to mention letting the perpetrators off the hook.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Not a sign of extremist ideology then. You underestimate the dangers of fucked up beliefs if you just put it down to mental health issues, not to mention letting the perpetrators off the hook.


 
What about a combination of the two? Mental health issues and being manipulated by people with extremist ideologies?


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

ABB


----------



## Plumdaff (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> I think he's a mentalist. Why do you think he did it?



You can think what you like. You're still spouting poorly understood conjecture about mental health on the internet. We can't and don't know a thing, but there's no evidence of any acute illness in that clip. 

I don't know why he did it. I think it's probably to do with the reasons he gives in the video, which are horrible but coherent . Better than your suggestion of being a 'mentalist' Nasty word to use btw.


----------



## shifting gears (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Can't say I have ever seen a video clip of a brave squaddie brandishing his weapon whilst talking to camera just seconds after slicing someone open. Most video clips I see of squaddies at war show them in a state of deep remorse and depression in such situations.



Nice blinkers mate, they suit you


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Because the stupid fucks who might end up kicking to death some poor shit who looks Muslim would be gloating over the fact they were dead instead of whining about how their in a hospital.
> As an ex nurse I feel sorry for the people who have to care for them. Not only would you have to care for someone proffesionally
> who you may dislike and may dislike you. You will also be in a media whirlwind and have to deal with their guards.


 
I suspect that those who are inclined to engage in retaliatory attacks would do so anyway.


----------



## smokedout (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Can't say I have ever seen a video clip of a brave squaddie brandishing his weapon whilst talking to camera just seconds after slicing someone open. Most video clips I see of squaddies at war show them in a state of deep remorse and depression in such situations.


 


Spoiler











 
<ed: come on, you know the rules on these kind of images>


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

lagtbd said:


> You can think what you like. You're still spouting poorly understood conjecture about mental health on the internet. We can't and don't know a thing, but there's no evidence of any acute illness in that clip.


 
Are we watching the same clip? The one with the bloke whose hands are covered in blood, brandishing a meat cleaver and a knife after just chopping someone's head off in the street? Looks pretty mental to me.


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

lagtbd said:


> You can think what you like. You're still spouting poorly understood conjecture about mental health on the internet. We can't and don't know a thing, but there's no evidence of any acute illness in that clip.
> 
> I don't know why he did it. I think it's probably to do with the reasons he gives in the video, which are horrible but coherent . Better than your suggestion of being a 'mentalist' Nasty word to use btw.


Mentalist is unnecessary agreed. But I can easily see how mental health issues can have played a role here. To say that is not undermining the seriousness of the situation, nor is it letting the perpetrators off the hook.


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Can't say I have ever seen a video clip of a brave squaddie brandishing his weapon whilst talking to camera just seconds after slicing someone open. Most video clips I see of squaddies at war show them in a state of deep remorse and depression in such situations.


 The 'Kill Team' Images: US Army Apologizes for Horrific Photos from Afghanistan


----------



## rowdyyates (May 23, 2013)

However you want to look at it, murder & attempted beheading of a soldier on the streets of London is a fucking bad sign.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> What about a combination of the two? Mental health issues and being manipulated by people with extremist ideologies?


 
Quite possibly, but the point I'm making is that firstly, mental illness is most of the time not visible on the surface, and secondly, being mentally ill rarely makes a person a danger to others.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Quite possibly, but the point I'm making is that firstly, mental illness is most of the time not visible on the surface, and secondly, being mentally ill rarely makes a person a danger to others.


 
I know. I'm looking at him in the context of what he's just done.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

shifting gears said:


> Nice blinkers mate, they suit you


 
No blinkers. Just an awareness of war propaganda compared to this incident.

Sure, there are psychos in the army also. Perhaps army life and war turns them a bit psycho. However, I have never seen a video clip showing a soldier at war happy about killing their victim without remorse outside of a hellish war zone. Woolwich can be tough on a Friday night, but not like a real war. It is all about context of environment in this instance I guess.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

Some noble patriots enjoying themselves this evening. I wonder if they wish there were murders like this every day.

http://twitpic.com/cshmpu


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)




----------



## J Ed (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Some noble patriots enjoying themselves this evening. I wonder if they wish there were murders like this every day.
> 
> http://twitpic.com/cshmpu


 
Looks like he's picked up before getting to Woolwich


----------



## coley (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?
> 
> Perhaps there will be answers to the obvious questions, which would not be the case if they had been killed.



They knew this was coming off? slow response due to coordinating response, temporary change of SOP in order to have live suspects available for interrogation?


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

smokedout said:


> --


 

PhotoShop!

Cut and paste in an old skool stylee actually.

War is horrific. Woolwich isn't quite so bad.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

yield said:


> The 'Kill Team' Images: US Army Apologizes for Horrific Photos from Afghanistan


That child has no trousers on.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 23, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Mentalist is unnecessary agreed. But I can easily see how mental health issues can have played a role here. To say that is not undermining the seriousness of the situation, nor is it letting the perpetrators off the hook.



They may have done. But the point I'm making is that most deeply illogical and troubling violence has nothing at all to do with mental illness and given that a/ there's currently no evidence of anyand b/ the guy gives his reasons, albeit fucked up ones I find it pretty dumb and prejudiced to assume it has to be the actions of someone unwell. Perfectly together people can be terrifying, that's the unsettling truth.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> PhotoShop!
> 
> Cut and paste in an old skool stylee actually.
> 
> War is horrific. Woolwich isn't quite so bad.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities


 
Don't be so fucking stupid.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I can't read that.


I like Boya Dee's commentary. Lots of the media are asking him to get in touch. Maybe we'll see him on the news tomorrow.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Don't be so fucking stupid.


Really, Stan? You can't seriously think that this never happened?


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities


That's unbearable to read, I had to give up when it got gory. No wonder Obama has mixed feelings about us.


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

lagtbd said:


> They may have done. But the point I'm making is that most deeply illogical and troubling violence has nothing at all to do with mental illness and given that a/ there's currently no evidence of anyand b/ the guy gives his reasons, albeit fucked up ones I find it pretty dumb and prejudiced to assume it has to be the actions of someone unwell. Perfectly together people can be terrifying, that's the unsettling truth.


Agreed. Wait and see as before.


----------



## smokedout (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> PhotoShop!
> 
> Cut and paste in an old skool stylee actually.
> 
> War is horrific. Woolwich isn't quite so bad.


 
they didnt have photoshop in 1951

"In 1952, soon after being appointed High Commissioner, General Templer had said ‘the hard core of communists in this country are fanatics and must be, and will be, exterminated.’ That same year the _Daily Worker_ carried a photo of a smiling Royal Marine commando in Malaya, holding the severed head of a dead guerrilla. Shortly after, a second photo was shown, with another marine holding two severed heads. The authorities claimed that heads and hands were taken from the bodies of ‘terrorists’ for identification purposes. But many soldiers regarded them as trophies, which showed their unit’s effectiveness: ‘Other photos reproduced in British papers showed severed hands propped next to severed heads in mock salute and dead guerrillas stretched out like tiger skins in front of the units that had “bagged” them.’ [28] This was eerily reminiscent of the way English soldiers had displayed Irish heads, during the Elizabethan conquests 400 years previously."

http://www.troopsoutmovement.com/oliversarmychap5.htm


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Agreed. Wait and see as before.


 
Where's the fun in that? This is the internet, not the wireless.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Really, Stan? You can't seriously think that this never happened?


 
Of course evil shit happens in war. Very evil shit. 

That photograph (a few posts earlier isn't real). Other photographs are real. War has to be scary. Woolwich today doesn't.

We are a country at war. Always have been. Therefore, retaliation is expected. This isn't conventional retaliation. It is some random nutter from East London being a scary random nutter. There is no war context and ITV should lose their broadcasting licence IMO.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

smokedout said:


> they didnt have photoshop in 1951
> 
> "In 1952, soon after being appointed High Commissioner, General Templer had said ‘the hard core of communists in this country are fanatics and must be, and will be, exterminated.’ That same year the _Daily Worker_ carried a photo of a smiling Royal Marine commando in Malaya, holding the severed head of a dead guerrilla. Shortly after, a second photo was shown, with another marine holding two severed heads. The authorities claimed that heads and hands were taken from the bodies of ‘terrorists’ for identification purposes. But many soldiers regarded them as trophies, which showed their unit’s effectiveness: ‘Other photos reproduced in British papers showed severed hands propped next to severed heads in mock salute and dead guerrillas stretched out like tiger skins in front of the units that had “bagged” them.’ [28] This was eerily reminiscent of the way English soldiers had displayed Irish heads, during the Elizabethan conquests 400 years previously."
> 
> http://www.troopsoutmovement.com/oliversarmychap5.htm


 

God. Why are people so stupid.


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Where's the fun in that? This is the internet, not the wireless.


Ho ho hah hah. Fuck off.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> God. Why are people so stupid.


Fuck off back to trolling about shit that doesn't matter Stan, you aren't covering yourself with glory here.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Ho ho hah hah. Fuck off.


 
What's your problem?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I can't read that.



It's an eye witness account from Twitter. Seems bona fide, has been doing rounds from early on.


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

Can't believe the police stayed back 'til co19 arrived, whilst ordinary folk did what they could.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I can't read that.


Read it out loud phonetically, like you would text speak.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

Brooker outlines how not to cover a lunatic murderer, 2009. 

Mass media don't give a shit. They love death far too much for that.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

EDL wearing balaclavas and facemasks is not going down well with their supporters on FB


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Can't believe the police stayed back 'til co19 arrived, whilst ordinary folk did what they could.


You can't rely on them. They always turn up late. People around just get on with it.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

> _Iv'e just finished watching Newsnight, it was reported that when a group of young muslims were asked for their opinion on the attack they replied "it was a good thing". They may be in the minority but their comments dont help_


 
_was this the case on Newsnight?, I sincerely hope it wasn't_


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

...and on cue...here we go...



> *Latest *
> 
> *00:30 *Lord Carlile, a former independent reviewer of terror laws, has said the killing should cause the Government to rethink the decision to drop the planned Communications Data Bill from the Queen's Speech, which would have extended email and internet monitoring to the security services.
> Labour ex-home secretary Lord Reid said such measures were "essential" to combating terrorism, warning it could otherwise take "some huge tragedy" to show the decision was wrong.
> ...


 
Reid...just like old times.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Fuck off back to trolling about shit that doesn't matter Stan, you aren't covering yourself with glory here.


 
This story is nothing without the video.

A video of a madman who has apparently just killed an innocent person in a London suburb. It is totally irresponsible of any broadcaster to put that footage out. The consequences could be horrific. London is not a war zone.

Other attrocities have been recorded photographically within war zones. Non-attrocites have been published falsely in order to scare the opposition. Many images were doctored to achieve such results.

Here we are talking about a random person with no official alliegance to any recognised terrorist group, army, or government running lose on the streets killing innocent people and then offering an impromptu interview to an apparently 'not really fussed' passer-by.

That passer-by then apparently contacted ITV to supply the footage which ITV promptly put out on the internet.

David Cameron will attend a meeting tomorrow morning after his blow job and OJ.

Crisis on the streets of London just like it has always been. This time captured for 'real'.

It is very different to what is happening in real war zones. The worrying thing is that shit like this put out by ITV could escalate, because people seem to like being scared from a safe distance (internet/TV).

It has all escalated from video footage on the internet. A photo in tomorrows papers would just have been another page Four 1 inch column. Why? I don't really know.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> This story is nothing without the video.
> 
> A video of a madman who has apparently just killed an innocent person in a London suburb. It is totally irresponsible of any broadcaster to put that footage out. The consequences could be horrific. London is not a war zone.
> 
> ...


Drunk again I see.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

The scout lady has given an even better interview to the Guardian:​​​ 


> "I was just on my way home after a trip to France. I was visiting my children in Plumstead and I had taken a 53 bus to get to Parliament Square where I was going to meet my children and walk to Victoria coach station before getting the coach to Helston in Cornwall.
> "I was sitting on the lower deck and the bus stopped. I could clearly see a body in the road and a crashed car. I trained as a first aider when I was a Brownie leader, so I asked someone to watch my bag and then got off to see if I could help.
> "I went over to the body where there was a lady sitting there and she said he was dead. She had comforted him by putting something under his back and a jacket over his head. I took his pulse and there was none. I couldn't see the man's face but I could see no evidence that suggested someone had tried to cut off his head. I could see nothing on him to suggest that he was a soldier.
> "Then a black guy with a black hat and a revolver in one hand and a cleaver in the other came over. He was very excited and he told me not to get close to the body. I didn't really feel anything. I was not scared because he was not drunk, he was not on drugs. He was normal. I could speak to him and he wanted to speak and that's what we did.
> ...


----------



## TruXta (May 23, 2013)

Stan - "it's not real terrorism".


----------



## J Ed (May 23, 2013)

brogdale said:


> ...and on cue...here we go...
> 
> 
> 
> Reid...just like old times.


 
Never let a good crisis go to waste


----------



## coley (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Drunk again I see.



Not at all, Stan sums it up in a nutshell, Londoncentric , I think is the issue?


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> _was this the case on Newsnight?, I sincerely hope it wasn't_


I didn't see that when I watched Newsnight. I suppose it's checkable on iplayer if anyone can be arsed.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 23, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Never let a good crisis go to waste


 
The philosophy of both the EDL and the government, it seems.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> True, but on reading the attempted beheading of a soldier, my first thought wouldn't be "Fucking crackheads", as Banhof's seemed to be. There's loads of crackheads running around up to all kinds of nonsense. Heads seldom get chopped off in your average crackheads day to day milieu though.



As an aside. Thanks for using the word milieu. I wanted to use that in a post the other day but my spelling being so bad, it wouldn't come up in Google. "mi."

Any Teresa May, stupid cunt. I was in the pub, TV news was on. Attack on everyone in the UK. Yeah, pouring oil on flames. Get another  speach writer or better still, just shut the fuck up.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Drunk again I see.


 
How so?

If you had just seen some mad guy slice open a body and come towards you with his weapons in hand, would you decide to get your iPhone out and offer a video?


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> How so?
> 
> If you had just seen some mad guy slice open a body and come towards you with his weapons in hand, would you decide to get your iPhone out and offer a video?


If you saw some mad guy with a knife and a cleaver who looked like they could outrun you come towards you and demand that you film them there is every chance you would do what they said.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 23, 2013)

xenon said:


> As an aside. Thanks for using the word milieu. I wanted to use that in a post the other day but my spelling being so bad, it wouldn't come up in Google. "mi."
> 
> Any Teresa May, stupid cunt. I was in the pub, TV news was on. Attack on everyone in the UK. Yeah, pouring oil on flames. Get another speach writer or better still, just shut the fuck up.


 
She speaks like one of those text to speech programs or a train station announcement regarding the slippery weather. Its very odd.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

coley said:


> Not at all, Stan sums it up in a nutshell, Londoncentric , I think is the issue?


Oh FFS. This would be the lead story even if it had happened in Belfast. Even without the video. The attempted beheading, the Islamist speech, the killers filming everything, the WOT context...it would definitely beat today's other top stories.


----------



## coley (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Oh FFS. This would be the lead story even if it had happened in Belfast. Even without the video. The attempted beheading, the Islamist speech, the killers filming everything, the WOT context...it would definitely beat today's other top stories.


Fair enough, but Stans reading of it is as balanced as any other.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

> "Then I saw my bus was moving and I knew that the police would arrive very soon. I asked him if there was anything else I could do for him because my bus was about to leave and he said no.


 
Jesus fucking wept. Is anyone believing this?


----------



## Stanley Edwards (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Oh FFS. This would be the lead story even if it had happened in Belfast. Even without the video. The attempted beheading, the Islamist speech, the killers filming everything, the WOT context...it would definitely beat today's other top stories.


 
The lead story where?


----------



## clicker (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> The scout lady has given an even better interview to the Guardian:​​​


 
If that's what happened, and I've no reason to doubt her, then the bravery and calmness she showed in a totally unexpected, bizarre event, was bloody remarkable. She didn't even feel 'annoyed' until she was dumped off the bus in lewisham.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

Shut up Stanley.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Jesus fucking wept. Is anyone believing this?


Yes, Stanley. What's your problem? I don't understand why you object to the video being broadcast either. Nobody's enjoying this, but it's much better for us to face the facts than to have it all brushed under the carpet.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

coley said:


> Fair enough, but Stans reading of it is as balanced as any other.


Yeah well balanced.



Stanley Edwards said:


> Jesus fucking wept. Is anyone believing this?


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Agreed. Wait and see as before.


 


TruXta said:


> Stan - "it's not real terrorism".


 
Make your mind up.


----------



## BlackArab (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Jesus fucking wept. Is anyone believing this?


 
Shock. The mind turns to the banality of life to insulate you from sheer magnitude of horror it's trying to process.


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Jesus fucking wept. Is anyone believing this?


Yes I am. Some people act cold and rational at the time.

An old boy at one of the sheltered schemes fell backwards and hit his head on a table corner. I could see his brain.

One of the ambulance crew puked when they saw him. Only hours later after he'd been carted off to hospital did I start to shake.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

Stanley Edwards said:


> The lead story where?


It's the lead story in El Pais, you div. http://elpais.com/  And top middle of the Washington Post front page. http://www.washingtonpost.com/  Why  not stay up all night counting the national papers around the world in which it isn't a top story?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Always late to the party...







There were a few EDL folks still milling around. Probably the closest I've got to that kind of thing, very strange walking round and seeing people and knowing why they were there. Was also aware that even though I was there and disagreed with these people and felt uncomfortable in their presence, I'm white, so I was never in any real danger unless I started something. Lots of people just on their way home must have felt far less secure 

Wonder if that'll be the end of it.


----------



## red rose (May 23, 2013)

Got to Woolwich just after 11:30 and as has already been stated it was already pretty much all done.

There were still a few questionable individuals milling around but no one actually doing anything. There were a fair few police vans and a few police officers in high vis wandering about but mostly it was just deserted. A woman who stopped to ask us whether we knew hotels in the area explained that the police closed all the shops/bars/restaurants so that people would leave.

One guy in a car did stop and yell across the road to ask if we knew where the EDL demo was  

Edit: and Lord Cam beat me to it


----------



## Dowie (May 23, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Mentalist is unnecessary agreed. But I can easily see how mental health issues can have played a role here. To say that is not undermining the seriousness of the situation, nor is it letting the perpetrators off the hook.


 
Its unlikely tbh.. Religious extremists are often quite sane and fairly intelligent - within the framework of their belief system they're able to reason that their act is perfectly justifiable.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

I do still feel like I'd like to do something to counter the EDL/anti-Islam aggression. A counter-protest seems to antagonistic for my liking, would just give the EDL the showdown they're craving (not to mention the media and politicos). Would prefer something which is more positive, about the strength in the community.

Times like these I wish I'd been more pro-active about learning skills and meeting people


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

red rose said:


> A woman who stopped to ask us whether we knew hotels in the area explained that the police closed all the shops/bars/restaurants so that people would leave.t


I still say she was urbanz


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Times like these I wish I'd been more pro-active about learning skills and meeting people


Smile, say hello, introduce yourself. It's just people.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

yield said:


> Smile, say hello, introduce yourself. It's just people.


We are _not_ going to get started on this one


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

Early Graun coverage of the fash vultures, on a great day for the 'phobes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-anti-muslim-reprisals?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> We are _not_ going to get started on this one


 
Just walk up with a big smile and ask 'What are you up to this evening?'


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

One other thing I meant to say earlier but got lost, I find it remarkable that they supposedly attacked him just because he was wearing a Help for Heroes tshirt. I mean, I suppose they could have been angry merely at his support, but you'd think they'd make sure they knew their target was involved.

Nothing to say they didn't, of course, and the Help for Heroes aspect was just a coincidence.


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> We are _not_ going to get started on this one


How are you doing Lord Camomile? Life treating you well?


----------



## Dandred (May 23, 2013)

Anyone else seen this stupid shit going around?

*THE MUSLIMS ARE NOT HAPPY!*
*They’re not happy in Gaza.*
* They’re not happy in Egypt.*
* They’re not happy in Libya.*
* They’re not happy in Morocco.*
* They’re not happy in Iran.*
* They’re not happy in Iraq.*
* They’re not happy in Yemen.*
* They’re not happy in Afghanistan.*
* They’re not happy in Pakistan.*
* They’re not happy in Syria.*
* They’re not happy in Lebanon.*
*SO, WHERE ARE THEY HAPPY?*
*They’re happy in Australia.*
* They’re happy in Canada.*
* They’re happy in England.*
* They’re happy in France.*
* They’re happy in Italy.*
* They’re happy in Germany.*
* They’re happy in Sweden.*
* They’re happy in the USA.*
* They’re happy in Norway.*
* They’re happy in Holland.*
* They’re happy in Denmark.*
*Basically, they’re happy in every country that is not Muslim…and unhappy in every country that is!*
*AND WHO DO THEY BLAME?*
*Not Islam.*
* Not their leadership.*
* Not themselves.*
*THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN! And then—wait for it!—they want to change those countries to be like….THE COUNTRIES THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY!*

* *


----------



## smokedout (May 23, 2013)

yield said:


> Smile, say hello, introduce yourself. It's just people.


 
today has not been a good advert for people


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

yield said:


> Smile, say hello, introduce yourself. It's just people.


Gotcha.  But it's a bit hard to pick out the male muslims...so how about we just walk up to any woman wearing a hijab and introduce ourselves?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Dandred said:


> Anyone else seen this stupid shit going around?
> 
> *THE MUSLIMS ARE NOT HAPPY!*
> 
> * *


They are apparently ambivalent about Scotland 

Fair enough, I suppose. Very pretty, but can suffer some seriously horrid weather and then there's the midgies!


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

smokedout said:


> today has not been a good advert for people


While white phosphorus over Fallujah tells us everthing is good?


----------



## Jon-of-arc (May 23, 2013)

Can't believe they're describing that woman as "brave".  There's politicians and everything praising her actions. I really hope there's an unspoken understatement to this adjective, and they really mean "stupid". Because that's exactly what it was. If you want to help people, help them run away. She could have gotten herself killed.  

Fascinating story though. She should have held on for a few grand from one of the red tops. Can't see that her story will be worth much now, given that she's blabbed to the telegraph and the guardian. I know some people might think its not all about money, but if ever there was a time you could ethically sell your story to the papers, this was it.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

I think "stupid" and "brave" are often fairly close bedfellows, and I've always kinda hoped I would be 'brave' enough to do what I thought to be the right thing, even though at the same time knowing it would also be quite a stupid thing to do and that's exactly how my parents would see it, or I'd see it if it were someone I cared about.

I've got to learn to write shorter sentences


----------



## classicdish (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> One other thing I meant to say earlier but got lost, I find it remarkable that they supposedly attacked him just because he was wearing a Help for Heroes tshirt. I mean, I suppose they could have been angry merely at his support, but you'd think they'd make sure they knew their target was involved.
> 
> Nothing to say they didn't, of course, and the Help for Heroes aspect was just a coincidence.


Also I am wondering how they managed to hit an off-duty soldier in their car - did they drive around in circles until they spotted a target, or did they just drive over the first victim they saw? (The photos kind of suggest that the victim was on the pavement when he was hit and that he was dragged or thrown forwards along the pavement before he and the car came to a stop at a large road sign).

Would they even be able to see what kind of shirt he was wearing or was it, like you said, just a coincidence?


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

classicdish said:


> Also I am wondering how they managed to hit an off-duty soldier in their car - did they drive around in circles until they spotted a target, or did they just drive over the first victim they saw? (The photos kind of suggest that the victim was on the pavement when he was hit and that he was dragged or thrown forwards along the pavement before he and the car came to a stop at a large road sign).
> 
> Would they even be able to see what kind of shirt he was wearing or was it, like you said, just a coincidence?


They probably drove round, or waited for someone looking a bit soldiery to come out of the barracks.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought everyone had a downer on crackheads. and junkies.


 
I'll be monitoring this post to see who 'likes' it. Couldn't wish for a more effective cunt detector. Must say I'm a bit surprised already.


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I think "stupid" and "brave" are often fairly close bedfellows, and I've always kinda hoped I would be 'brave' enough to do what I thought to be the right thing, even though at the same time knowing it would also be quite a stupid thing to do and that's exactly how my parents would see it, or I'd see it if it were someone I cared about.


The way I feel about it is what would I have to do if I had to do it forever.


SpineyNorman said:


> I'll be monitoring this post to see who 'likes' it. Couldn't wish for a more effective cunt detector. Must say I'm a bit surprised already.


What? You not been plagued by junkies? I've had my fill of it.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

I'm not quite sure I understand. Like, if every day you had to go and talk down a guy wielding a bloody knife?


----------



## classicdish (May 23, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Can't believe they're describing that woman as "brave". There's politicians and everything praising her actions. I really hope there's an unspoken understatement to this adjective, and they really mean "stupid". Because that's exactly what it was. If you want to help people, help them run away. She could have gotten herself killed.


Seems like she didn't realise it wasn't just a road traffic accident until she was actually stood next to the guy with the knives. She was brave not to run away in as far as she was trying to help defuse the situation as best she could.



Jon-of-arc said:


> Fascinating story though. She should have held on for a few grand from one of the red tops. Can't see that her story will be worth much now, given that she's blabbed to the telegraph and the guardian. I know some people might think its not all about money, but if ever there was a time you could ethically sell your story to the papers, this was it.


It is not all about money, this maybe says more about your motivations and attitude than anything else.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought everyone had a downer on crackheads. and junkies.


Most of them are fairly biddable.


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand. Like, if every day you had to go and talk down a guy wielding a bloody knife?


Hopefully not. Live your live in all ways so that it would bear repetition.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (May 23, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Can't believe they're describing that woman as "brave". There's politicians and everything praising her actions. I really hope there's an unspoken understatement to this adjective, and they really mean "stupid". Because that's exactly what it was. If you want to help people, help them run away. She could have gotten herself killed.


 
She stayed calm, tried to keep the man talking & as she became aware that there were other people around her, she tried to keep his attention on herself rather than them. Seems like at that point she decided it would be better if he attacked her (one person) rather than the group of people around her. Sounds brave to me.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

yield said:


> Hopefully not. Live your live in all ways so that it would bear repetition.


Sorry, I'm very tired but I still don't understand. For example, in the situation the woman found herself in, according to your "repetition" dictum would you talk to the guy or stay safe?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Ms Ordinary said:


> She stayed calm, tried to keep the man talking & as she became aware that there were other people around her, she tried to keep his attention on herself rather than them. Seems like at that point she decided it would be better if he attacked her (one person) rather than the group of people around her. Sounds brave to me.


Let's hope a few more kids sign up to Brownies/Guides/Scouts off the back of it!

"Brown Owl, when are we going to learn how to diffuse a terrorist threat with only a bag of groceries?"


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

Here's an angle we've not considered yet. Guess who blames this on us being being soft with THEGAYS?

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/05/2...error-killing-on-uk-acceptance-of-gay-people/


----------



## yield (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Sorry, I'm very tired but I still don't understand. For example, in the situation the woman found herself in, according to your "repetition" dictum would you talk to the guy or stay safe?


What I'm trying to explain and failing miserably is that you cannot prepare for unexpected situations.

You will surprise yourself. Hand to heart.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Time for bed


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Here's an angle we've not considered yet. Guess who blames this on us being being soft with THEGAYS?
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/05/2...error-killing-on-uk-acceptance-of-gay-people/


It was only a matter of time.


----------



## J Ed (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'll be monitoring this post to see who 'likes' it. Couldn't wish for a more effective cunt detector. Must say I'm a bit surprised already.


 
??

I thought he was referring to the way in which people stigmatise drug users, my like certainly was not agreeing with the idea that they should be. Have had enough problems in my own family with that to think that.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Here's an angle we've not considered yet. Guess who blames this on us being being soft with THEGAYS?
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/05/2...error-killing-on-uk-acceptance-of-gay-people/


"God is your terrorist"?!

And linked to at the bottom:


> "US church blames Oklahoma tornado on gay basketball player Jason Collins".


 
I know it's a waste of time and energy getting angry about this stuff, but what utter fucking cunts!


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

Do we really need every fuckwitted speak your brains moron to be linked to and / or quoted from.

Twitter, EDL, shocked and appalled, Facebook, multiculturism, Afghanistan, my neighbour's not a racist, book of peace, go back home, shocked and appalled, have your say.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'll be monitoring this post to see who 'likes' it. Couldn't wish for a more effective cunt detector. Must say I'm a bit surprised already.


 
TBF, I don't reckon old Pickers meant any harm by it though. A lot of people do have an often, at least partially,  justifiable downer on afficionados of the white and the B, but I just couldn't see how Banhof read about this and the lightbulb above his head immediately illuminated whatever damp & mildew smelling room he found himself in with sixty watts of crackhead. Bag snatchings, bike thefts, shoplifting? Yes. Beheadings? Hardly an everyday gig.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (May 23, 2013)

classicdish said:


> It is not all about money, this maybe says more about your motivations and attitude than anything else.



Propah urbanz! 

What does it say about my motivations and attitude? What would be wrong with those motivations and attitude(s)?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

More EDL delight

http://twitpic.com/cshz34


----------



## Jon-of-arc (May 23, 2013)

Ms Ordinary said:


> She stayed calm, tried to keep the man talking & as she became aware that there were other people around her, she tried to keep his attention on herself rather than them. Seems like at that point she decided it would be better if he attacked her (one person) rather than the group of people around her. Sounds brave to me.



And fair play, in many ways. Not an unpleasant word to say about the lady. Just totally at odds with my own policy when faced with a meat cleaver wielding murderer. Pretty sure the official advice in such a situation isn't to do this. Its to save your own skin, and then those of those around you. In that order. Leave the talking down to the police. She really is quite lucky not to be dead.


----------



## J Ed (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> More EDL delight
> 
> http://twitpic.com/cshz34


 
This is horrible and I just don't understand it, how is it that all these people didn't know about them before? It's not like there haven't been other terrorist attacks. I'm going to hope that a lot of these people just had a morbid curiousity about what the EDL were going to say rather than were indicating any support...


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> And fair play, in many ways. Not an unpleasant word to say about the lady. Just totally at odds with my own policy when faced with a meat cleaver wielding murderer. Pretty sure the official advice in such a situation isn't to do this. Its to save your own skin, and then those of those around you. In that order. Leave the talking down to the police. She really is quite lucky not to be dead.



You have that policy, really? That's the point. People react in different ways. The fight or flight response doesn't necesarily kick in, if you've not directly been involved. People might natrually panic, run away if you hear an explosion. Sudden jarring noise. Witnessing someone being done in, doesn't necesarily have that effect. I was outside a party once and a bloke across the road was getting his head kicked in. horrible, of course, luckily he was alright. But some peple shouted some sloped away. no one ran off shitting themselves even when the attacker ran over the road towards them asking who else wants some.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

I mean, we should have communicated with each other, someone taken the lead, ran over the road and mobbed him. But most peple were stood around like WTF.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> And fair play, in many ways. Not an unpleasant word to say about the lady. Just totally at odds with my own policy when faced with a meat cleaver wielding murderer. Pretty sure the official advice in such a situation isn't to do this. Its to save your own skin, and then those of those around you. In that order. Leave the talking down to the police. She really is quite lucky not to be dead.


There was, to be fair, no way to know that these men were more woman and child friendly than your average run of the mill terrorist.

Their apology for women and children having to see it makes me wonder if that may be part of the reason that they chose to attack one individual soldier (that they could tell themselves counted as a combatant) rather than an indiscriminate attack.



xenon said:


> I mean, we should have communicated with each other, someone taken the lead, ran over the road and mobbed him. But most peple were stood around like WTF.


After you mate.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> There was, to be fair, no way to know that these men were more woman and child friendly than your average run of the mill terrorist.
> 
> Their apology for women and children having to see it makes me wonder if that may be part of the reason that they chose to attack one individual soldier (that they could tell themselves counted as a combatant) rather than an indiscriminate attack.
> 
> ...



That's it isn't it. I was up the side of the building having a piss and came back to the group stood outside and my mate told me what was happening. I was like, is anyone gonna do anything... We should do something... I wasn't gonna run over there by myself, that's for sure even if i was capable / braver.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

J Ed said:


> This is horrible and I just don't understand it, how is it that all these people didn't know about them before? It's not like there haven't been other terrorist attacks. I'm going to hope that a lot of these people just had a morbid curiousity about what the EDL were going to say rather than were indicating any support...


 
Good question. My tuppence : There was a time when the main EDL page had upwards of 80k "likes" (ok -the curious, the antis, the multiple alts included but still....) LOL I remember one Lennon interview where in typical humble fashion he talked about being the leader of 80,000 people.

Then one St Georges Day 2 or 3 years back the page got fucked over, can't remember if it was Anonymous or Z Company (right name?).

By then the decline had started and they never got the numbers anywhere near back (20 - 25k - would be a guess, there are EDL watchers around who will have sharper memories than I)

It's a reasonable guess that a large contingent of the post Woolwich increase is people who disappeared at the hack and never went back.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Good question. My tuppence : There was a time when the main EDL page had upwards of 80k "likes" (ok -the curious, the antis, the multiple alts included but still....) LOL I remember one Lennon interview where in typical humble fashion he talked about being the leader of 80,000 people.
> 
> Then one St Georges Day 2 or 3 years back the page got fucked over, can't remember if it was Anonymous or Z Company (right name?).
> 
> ...


And? It's not like they changed their views is it?


----------



## Sprocket. (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Here's an angle we've not considered yet. Guess who blames this on us being being soft with THEGAYS?
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/05/2...error-killing-on-uk-acceptance-of-gay-people/


 
Tornadoes forecast in London on Thursday afternoon?


----------



## N_igma (May 23, 2013)

Someone on Facebook said 'send them all back'. I asked 'where?' Still waiting on a reply.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> And? It's not like they changed their views is it?


 
Well I was only giving an opinion, no need to ask "and?" really, I was just speaking to your good question. Perhaps the opinions were more buried or mollified than "changed", as is the case with the general atmosphere of hate against Muslims. We've had a bit of a break from it really - the 2 Minute Hate stuff has focussed more on the disgusting poor, who have taken all the money.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The police do not normally shoot to wound. I wonder why they did so in this case?
> 
> Perhaps there will be answers to the obvious questions, which would not be the case if they had been killed.


 
Police shoot to stop. If they shoot you and then you fall down they can't shoot you again they have to justify each shoot. While the army is taught to keep shooting until your sure he is dead and then if he hasn't surrendered a couple more is fine just to make sure he isn't faking being dead.
If they had tasers they might well have used those. As taking life is supposedly the last resort.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (May 23, 2013)

Sorry if this has been covered before, but I missed most of this yesterday - can someone explain why this attack is being classed as terrorism? There's nothing on BBC or the last few pages of this thread to explain it.


----------



## pinkmonkey (May 23, 2013)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before, but I missed most of this yesterday - can someone explain why this attack is being classed as terrorism? There's nothing on BBC or the last few pages of this thread to explain it.


 
I read that one of the attackers had been 'radicalised' by some banned Islamic terror group.  Speculation at this stage, though. Like many of these incidents, I think it's more an act of random lunacy. They get riled up by some group or other, but when it comes down to it, they act alone.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 23, 2013)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before, but I missed most of this yesterday - can someone explain why this attack is being classed as terrorism? There's nothing on BBC or the last few pages of this thread to explain it.


 
  Terrorism is defined as using violence or intimidation in pursuit of political aims.
         They used violence and then went round telling people why they did it. Pretty much makes them terrorists. Wether they are part of a group or it was just the two of them we will have to wait and see.


----------



## tommers (May 23, 2013)

Buddy Bradley said:


> Sorry if this has been covered before, but I missed most of this yesterday - can someone explain why this attack is being classed as terrorism? There's nothing on BBC or the last few pages of this thread to explain it.



There's a video of one of them saying that this is war, you people are doomed, linking it to wars against Muslims etc.  Apparently they shouted allahu Akbar as they attacked.  That kind of stuff.


----------



## gabi (May 23, 2013)

The guardian eye-witness account is fucking hilarious. sorry. but im not in the uk at the moment and am slightly homesick for it. i actually giggled reading that. the british.... 

standing over a half decapitated man, she asks the perp if theres anything else she can do for him before her bus leaves. then finds time to whinge about getting dropped off at the wrong stop. classic.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Most of them are fairly biddable.


What's that got to do with anything?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

gabi said:


> The guardian eye-witness account is fucking hilarious. sorry. but im not in the uk at the moment and am slightly homesick for it. i actually giggled reading that. the british....
> 
> standing over a half decapitated man, she asks the perp if theres anything else she can do for him before her bus leaves. then finds time to whinge about getting dropped off at the wrong stop. classic.


If she was proper british she'd have been phlegmatick about being dropped at the wrong stop


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'll be monitoring this post to see who 'likes' it. Couldn't wish for a more effective cunt detector. Must say I'm a bit surprised already.


you do that


----------



## cyprusclean (May 23, 2013)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 32885
> 
> Another WTF image.
> 
> "yeah, just standing here chatting to the guy with the bloodied knife in his hand"


 

 She's just been on morning TV.


----------



## girasol (May 23, 2013)

Why is it lunacy when a civilian does it, but when it's backed by a government it's ok?  I think these two men were perfectly sane, they just believed the bullshit and became radicalized.  I doubt very much they are 'insane' or even psychotic as some people are saying.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> always thought round woolwich, bermondsey more nf and the bnp heartland - in london terms - always been more welling when they had the bookshop there, and barking & dagenham.


Yes, you can virtually track it by the money. Welling's posher.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

A mate of mine I sometimes go out with occasionally (although not very close tbf) has posted some stuff that's a bit - "it's not about religion, it's about illegal immigrants coming to this country and wanting to kill us all"  it's weird as well because she's a traveller originally


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

I'm wondering whether to say something?


----------



## friedaweed (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Police shoot to stop. If they shoot you and then you fall down they can't shoot you again they have to justify each shoot. While the army is taught to keep shooting until your sure he is dead and then if he hasn't surrendered a couple more is fine just to make sure he isn't faking being dead.
> If they had tasers they might well have used those. As taking life is supposedly the last resort.


They all carry tazers on their person as part of their kit. Looks like it was straight to the hip. Given the circumstances the sidearm was the correct weapon of choice.

On the car they carry a
Remington shot gun (For animal destruction)
A baton gun
Two rifles
all in a locked safe

On their person they carry
A glock pistol (Primarily to defend the car with in case it comes under attack)
Tazer
Pepper spray
Thunder flash
Extendable batton


Not many fire arms plod actually get to shoot anyone. It'll have been quite a traumatic experience for both coppers I would guess.


----------



## Roadkill (May 23, 2013)

Now confirmed that the victim was a 'member of the armed forces.'


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've only read up to this post before replying, so apols if it's been dealt with already, but why've you got such a downer on crackheads?


 
Cos they do my head in with their agressive, irrational, paranoid behaviour.


----------



## bi0boy (May 23, 2013)

Sorry but I laughed at the police at the end here, screaming and then charging over a hedge 



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


----------



## paulhackett (May 23, 2013)




----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

No comment from Blair yet?


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

tbh, I'm surprised the EDL haven't tried building a base in that part of SE London before. Woolwich, Welling, Plumstead and Charlton have always been notorious for a local fash presence


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> True, but on reading the attempted beheading of a soldier, my first thought wouldn't be "Fucking crackheads", as Banhof's seemed to be. There's loads of crackheads running around up to all kinds of nonsense. Heads seldom get chopped off in your average crackheads day to day milieu though.


 
The similarity to the pair of loons who wanted to lop off Joss Stone's bonce drove my thoughts...

And if this pair have no history of drug abuse I'll throw a pony at the server fund!


----------



## sim667 (May 23, 2013)

paulhackett said:


>


 
I remember one of my students asking me who the EDFL are.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> tbh, I'm surprised the EDL haven't tried building a base in that part of SE London before. Woolwich, Welling, Plumstead and Charlton have always been notorious for a local fash presence


Given the cultural demographic I find that somewhat bizarre, though I suppose in a twisted way it makes sense as it may be where people feel more 'threatened'.

Again though, I've rarely seen anything serious. The only incident I remember was when a drunk group of maybe 4 or 5 white people had a go at an black mother for slapping her child in the street, and you could tell there was more going on than just their passionate views on parental corporal punishment.

Starting to wonder just how oblivious I've been and whether there's far more tension in the area than I've ever realised


----------



## cyprusclean (May 23, 2013)

What did he mean, "Leave our lands"? He sounded British born and bred.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

i've only known one person from plumstead and she was fairly racist


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Given the cultural demographic I find that somewhat bizarre, though I suppose in a twisted way it makes sense as it may be where people feel more 'threatened'.
> 
> Again though, I've rarely seen anything serious. The only incident I remember was when a drunk group of maybe 4 or 5 white people had a go at an black mother for slapping her child in the street, and you could tell there was more going on than just their passionate views on parental corporal punishment.
> 
> Starting to wonder just how oblivious I've been and whether there's far more tension in the area than I've ever realised


It may have changed in the past few years, as my visits back to my old stamping ground have become fewer. I started at Thames Poly in Woolwich in 1984, and noticed it almost instantly. It's long been a recruiting ground for the BNP, and | had run-ins with toytown fash there back in '05


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

This is probably the first time I've felt vaguely sorry for a multinational energy corporation


----------



## Belushi (May 23, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> It may have changed in the past few years, as my visits back to my old stamping ground have become fewer. I started at Thames Poly in Woolwich in 1984, and noticed it almost instantly. It's long been a recruiting ground for the BNP, and | had run-ins with toytown fash there back in '05


 
The demographics have changed quite rapidly in the past 20 years, it was overwhelmingly white in the early 90's and a lot of the pubs were out and out racist.  I was in Woolwich last year for the first time in about ten years and although theres been some money spent on the centre there's still a lot of deprivation.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> It may have changed in the past few years, as my visits back to my old stamping ground have become fewer. I started at Thames Poly in Woolwich in 1984, and noticed it almost instantly. It's long been a recruiting ground for the BNP, and | had run-ins with toytown fash there back in '05


Well working in central London I'm honestly not there a great deal, and when it is it's generally just passing through on my way home or doing the shopping on a Saturday. Like I say, perhaps there's a lot more going on than is immediately obvious.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Belushi said:


> although theres been some money spent on the centre there's still a lot of deprivation.


This is true; it's a really odd situation. You've got the redeveloped square and the new housing down by the river, but it's really barely even surface deep.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> What did he mean, "Leave our lands"? He sounded British born and bred.


 
I assume he was referring "the righteous caliphate of our umma"; stated goal of AQ. As such, any notion of nationalism is redundant.


----------



## agricola (May 23, 2013)

brogdale said:


> I assume he was referring "the righteous caliphate of our umma"; stated goal of AQ. As such, any notion of nationalism is redundant.


 
Or indeed logic, given that they have included most of Spain in "our lands" in the past.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

...and now it's Clegg's fault for stopping the development of UK Stasi...



> Lord West, the former security minister, has weighed in on the debate over the now-shelved communications data bill (see earlier). The bill, blocked by Nick Clegg, would allow investigators to get hold of suspects' phone records to trace their contacts. West told Sky News:
> If we don't get a communications data bill, then in the future we won't be able to find that sort of information.
> That information is extremely important for our security services to be able to pin down people, find out who they are linked with, who maybe radicalised them - was it just themselves or is there someone radicalising more people?
> We need to know this information and I do think that the communications data bill which was due to come through and has been put on pause by the deputy prime minister, I think that's a terrible mistake.​





The word reactionary doesn't do this justice.​


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I'm wondering whether to say something?


this is urban. you will say something. then you will say something else. it is the way of the poster.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

agricola said:


> Or indeed logic, given that they have included most of Spain in "our lands" in the past.


 Yeah, but strictly speaking, the south of the Iberian penisula did come under the caliphate of cordoba.


----------



## tommers (May 23, 2013)

brogdale said:


> ...and now it's Clegg's fault for stopping the development of UK Stasi...
> 
> ​​​The word reactionary doesn't do this justice.​


 
Why not look at why people are being "radicalised"?

These guys were making quite a clear point.  An attack in retaliation for the West's attacks on Muslims.  Why not try to deal with that, rather than trying to get more laws to snoop on people?


----------



## girasol (May 23, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> What did he mean, "Leave our lands"? He sounded British born and bred.


 
When you are made to feel you don't belong where you are born you would naturally think of your land as the place your ancestors come from. I'd imagine that to be his reasoning.

Hate breeds hate.


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2013)

tommers said:


> Why not look at why people are being "radicalised"?
> 
> These guys were making quite a clear point. An attack in retaliation for the West's attacks on Muslims. Why not try to deal with that, rather than trying to get more laws to snoop on people?


 
Given the increasing abrogation of freedoms and human rights, extra-judicial killing, kidnapping, detention without trial, etc, of the past decade-plus by persons acting on behalf of western governments you'd almost be forgiven for getting the impression that someone/people, somewhere were willfully seeking a quasi-police state of sorts rather than making any effort at addressing the underlying cause...


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

brogdale said:


> ...and now it's Clegg's fault for stopping the development of UK Stasi...
> 
> ​​The word reactionary doesn't do this justice.​


 
He makes an uncomfortable point though.

_If_ this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.

So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Terrorism is defined as using violence or intimidation in pursuit of political aims.
> They used violence and then went round telling people why they did it. Pretty much makes them terrorists. Wether they are part of a group or it was just the two of them we will have to wait and see.


 
The perfect description of Bush/Bliar and all those who have sought to perpetuate their work.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2013)

dunno how representaive the EDL FB page is, but looks like theyve doubled their fucking "Likes" overnight ....


----------



## rekil (May 23, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Sorry but I laughed at the police at the end here, screaming and then charging over a hedge


See the copper falling in the hedge poignantly. Like a Robert Capa photo.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2013)

Still trying to work out how the EDL turning up at Woolwich and then throwing bottles at the police fits in with 'defending' the UK from Johnny Foreigners.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

There is a guy who knew him on Twitter saying interesting stuff. Seems legit, Twitter handle is Abu nusaybah.

"A no facebook/ Twitter / demonstrations guy" he says. Quite possibly how he slipped through the net.

Edit: that said there are obvious motives for this guy to talk shit so do treat with caution


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> He makes an uncomfortable point though.
> 
> _If_ this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.
> 
> So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.


It wouldn't have to be 'jihadis' and it wouldn't have to be part of a wider, more sinister outfit. Anyone trying to make a 'point' can grab a knife, run into the street and kill someone. It really isn't that difficult. It happens, from time to time, but thankfully not with great regularity.

Excessive control of a population is just as, if not more, sinister.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> He makes an uncomfortable point though.
> 
> _If_ this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.
> 
> So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.


 
...or not waging (illegal) wars against other countries....maybe?


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> It wouldn't have to be 'jihadis' and it wouldn't have to be part of a wider, more sinister outfit. Anyone trying to make a 'point' can grab a knife, run into the street and kill someone. It really isn't that difficult. It happens, from time to time, but thankfully not with great regularity.
> 
> Excessive control of a population is just as, if not more, sinister.


 
I don't really get your point here.

It's not about the ease with which it can be done, but the motivation to actually do it. My point is that if there are a bunch of these guys out there prepared to do shit like this and such attacks become more frequent, civil liberties are going out the window.


----------



## agricola (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> He makes an uncomfortable point though.
> 
> _If_ this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.
> 
> So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.


 
A Communications Data Bill of the kind that Lord West and that Reid advocate wouldnt have prevented this attack - if the security services were interested in them (at least to the degree that would be required to prevent this) they would almost certainly have had access to that sort of information / data already.  As for "a new sort of terrorism", you are right that its virtually impossible to guard against (lets face it people stab and chop each other up for usually daft non-political reasons on occasion in London already) but I doubt that it would lead to a wider trend of attacks - as that schoolteacher apparently said to one of the suspects, there are more of us than there is of them, they would lose.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I don't really get your point here.
> 
> It's not about the ease with which it can be done, but the motivation to actually do it. My point is that if there are a bunch of these guys out there prepared to do shit like this and such attacks become more frequent, civil liberties are going out the window.


 they have already. It's just that they now crave (Stasi-like) blanket surveillance of the population


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

where to said:
			
		

> There is a guy who knew him on Twitter saying interesting stuff. Seems legit, Twitter handle is Abu nusaybah.
> 
> "A no facebook/ Twitter / demonstrations guy" he says. Quite possibly how he slipped through the net.
> 
> Edit: that said there are obvious motives for this guy to talk shit so do treat with caution



This guy named the suspect last night in now deleted tweets. That name is now bring reported by the Sun. More confident this guy is legit now. searches also going on in Romford, where he said the guy was from.


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

brogdale said:


> ...or not waging (illegal) wars against other countries....maybe?


 
Well of course, but that brings up the far greater issue of western interaction with islam, radicalisation of sections of it, who did what first, who supports whom, etc, etc, etc. Then of course there are the ambitions of radical islamists themselves, would they stop urging the destruction of western values if troops were pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan? If support for Israel was reduced? Is that desirable? 

While I agree with the thrust of your point, it's not as simple as saying "if we stop this, they'll stop that", and it's certainly not an effective short term remedy to terrorist actions on the streets.


----------



## girasol (May 23, 2013)

editor said:


> Still trying to work out how the EDL turning up at Woolwich and then throwing bottles at the police fits in with 'defending' the UK from Johnny Foreigners.


 
But that's the thing... They aren't foreigners. Except so many people think they are.


----------



## Dan U (May 23, 2013)

editor said:


> Still trying to work out how the EDL turning up at Woolwich and then throwing bottles at the police fits in with 'defending' the UK from Johnny Foreigners.


 
it's a bit like when they defended Brighton from that massive mosque


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Dan U said:


> it's a bit like when they defended Brighton from that massive mosque


The Pavilion?


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> While I agree with the thrust of your point, it's not as simple as saying "if we stop this, they'll stop that", and it's certainly not an effective short term remedy to terrorist actions on the streets.


 
There will always be some extremists who think they can make a statement or influence events through violence but by removing a policy of dealing out arbitrary extra-judicial justice in the form of dealing out death and destruction from above (and other means) one can go a long way to cutting support from under the feet of such misanthropes. Rescinding freedoms both fuels them and drags one down to their level.


----------



## scalyboy (May 23, 2013)

dp


----------



## scalyboy (May 23, 2013)

where to said:


> This guy named the suspect last night in now deleted tweets. That name is now bring reported by the Sun. More confident this guy is legit now. searches also going on in Romford, where he said the guy was from.


Interesting discussion about one of the alleged killers on a Nigeria messageboard


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> The Pavilion?


yup 
and tommy robinson complaining about islamification of twitter because of the pic of the Taj Mahal when you log in


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I don't really get your point here.
> 
> It's not about the ease with which it can be done, but the motivation to actually do it. My point is that if there are a bunch of these guys out there prepared to do shit like this and such attacks become more frequent, civil liberties are going out the window.


To be honest, I kinda lost my point halfway through. I think I just took exception to your use of the word "jihadi" and your allusion to "a wider, more sinister outfit". It doesn't necessarily have to be either of those things, could be just one person, trying to make a point, and going about it in a misguided and tragic way.

And the supplementary point that, even with that threat, I'd be very uncomfortable with any power, state or otherwise, trying to exercise more control over this or any other population.


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

agricola said:


> As for "a new sort of terrorism", you are right that its virtually impossible to guard against (lets face it people stab and chop each other up for usually daft non-political reasons on occasion in London already) but I doubt that it would lead to a wider trend of attacks - as that schoolteacher apparently said to one of the suspects, there are more of us than there is of them, they would lose.


 
Why wouldn't it become a trend?

These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.

And it's easy. All that's needed are a couple of choppers and the motivation to do it.


----------



## Dan U (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> The Pavilion?


 
yeah, that's it


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.


Possibly shouldn't admit this, but I've thought similar for a long time. No grand statements, just random killings in fairly unremarkable locations. Would certainly worry that the public would get very jittery and suspicious of each other very quickly.

But again, that threat's always been there, and there have always be lone singles or small groups of people who go out and kill. Personally I think a major way to combat this would be to not create an atmosphere that breeds and/or 'rewards' this kind of attitude.


----------



## stowpirate (May 23, 2013)

I don't know if anybody has picked up on this?

"The Foreign Office warns of a high threat from terrorism in the West African nation and raises the prospect of a risk of retaliatory attacks following the French intervention in Mali."

I seem to recall the RAF was giving the French logistic air support. Might in some way be linked to this?


----------



## agricola (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Why wouldn't it become a trend?
> 
> These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.
> 
> And it's easy. All that's needed are a couple of choppers and the motivation to do it.


 
It wouldnt though - after a few weeks the media wouldnt report on it to the extent that they have done with this, it would become routine in the same way that the deaths of UK service personnel in Afganistan have been, or IRA bombings / shootings used to be in the 80s. Theres also the point that after a few attacks (or indeed as soon as they started to target members of the public) people would fight back - and all the places you identify are stockpiled with potential weapons that could be used to do so.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

scalyboy said:
			
		

> Interesting discussion about one of the alleged killers on a Nigeria messageboard



The tweets on page one of that were from last night but he's now deleted them.

I see the Mail has an article naming the same suspect as Abu nusaybah named last night. The Police have turned up at his parents rather nice house in Lincolnshire too so this all ties up.

"Spoilt middle class black boy with too much time on his hands" says one on that Nigerian thread...


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> He makes an uncomfortable point though.
> 
> _If_ this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.
> 
> So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.


 
So, why are the DWP requesting records of claimants's Xbox live usage, state security?


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> So, why are the DWP requesting records of claimants's Xbox live usage, state security?


 
No. To stitch people up, silly.


----------



## g force (May 23, 2013)

agricola said:


> It wouldnt though - after a few weeks the media wouldnt report on it to the extent that they have done with this, it would become routine in the same way that the deaths of UK service personnel in Afganistan have been, or IRA bombings / shootings used to be in the 80s. Theres also the point that after a few attacks (or indeed as soon as they started to target members of the public) people would fight back - and all the places you identify are stockpiled with potential weapons that could be used to do so.


 
Depends on how they were done - this attack in Birmingham (alebit not quite what occured in London) was featured for about 1 min on the main BBC news when it occurred: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> So, why are the DWP requesting records of claimants's Xbox live usage, state security?


FIFA.

Which is stupid, everyone knows Pro Evo is better.


----------



## Ae589 (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Why wouldn't it become a trend? If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.


 
Assuming the perpetrators were caught/killed, it would be over fairly soon (I'm betting the number of people willing to do this is less than 50).


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> The Pavilion?


used to be quite a nice pub just up the road from white city station


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

agricola said:


> It wouldnt though - after a few weeks the media wouldnt report on it to the extent that they have done with this, it would become routine in the same way that the deaths of UK service personnel in Afganistan have been, or IRA bombings / shootings used to be in the 80s.


 
I don't think people getting sliced up in the street could ever become "routine". It would change our way of life.



> Theres also the point that after a few attacks (or indeed as soon as they started to target members of the public) people would fight back - and all the places you identify are stockpiled with potential weapons that could be used to do so.


 
It doesn't matter whether people fought back or not. The nature of these seemingly random attacks mean that they'll kill a few people in pretty much every case before they're stopped, and they don't care about dying.

Also, on the IRA thing in the 70s and 80s, the scope of their operations were generally limited by the desire of the operatives not to get caught or killed. These boys have flushed that rule down the bog and along with their willingness to die comes a whole host of potential new targets and activities.

I hope I'm wrong but I can see this type of action becoming a game changer.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Ae589 said:


> Assuming the perpetrators were caught/killed, it would be over fairly soon (I'm betting the number of people willing to do this is less than 50).


it is now


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think people getting sliced up in the street could ever become "routine". It would change our way of life.


how do you think all those teenagers get killed? people being stabbed to death IS pretty routine, there's a bit of wailing and a bit of oh no what are we to do after one teenager kills another, or a gang fight at a big station, but nonetheless no one outside the circles of those affected loses any sleep over it.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Also, on the IRA thing in the 70s and 80s, the scope of their operations were generally limited by the desire of the operatives not to get caught or killed. These boys have flushed that rule down the bog and along with their willingness to die comes a whole host of potential new targets and activities.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong but I can see this type of action becoming a game changer.


 
Yeah, but I see no sign that the new boys with the beards have anything like the organisation the PIRA had, or any interest in developing that sort of organisation, or even the ability to develop one if they wanted to.

It was organisation that gave PIRA the ability to punch above its weight, and stand down when the time came.

So you're probably right about it being a game changer, but in more ways than one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

silverfish said:


> Speaks the voice of firearms experience, lolz


 
TBF, sometimes a shot to central mass will kill, sometimes it won't. I'm always a bit worried when you hear about "suspect shot in arm/leg", when you know the fuckers have been trained to aim in the middle of the sodding torso!


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 23, 2013)

The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Balbi said:


> If that bloke is 'of muslim appearance' then basically, every central african bloke is.


 
And yet, many are Christian or "animist".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

D'wards said:


> I know, but a lot of English people are well up for a bit of "Help for Heroes" action and will see this almost as a personal attack. The armed forces will see it as a direct personal attack. I expect reprisals from the forces, unofficially like, as used to go on in NI all the time.


 
"A lot of English people"?
care to quantify that, or a re you talking out of your arse?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war.


surely the 'big reason' with iraq was fuck all to do with terrorism and very much to do with the fact we were being lied to about the reasons for going to war - and it was clearly apparent AT THE TIME that we were being lied to.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war.


 
If Willie Whitelaw could describe uproar in 1970s NI as an "acceptable level of violence", the Powers that Be can probably tolerate the odd random beheading here and there. Your mileage may vary of course.


----------



## elbows (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I hope I'm wrong but I can see this type of action becoming a game changer.


 
If it ends up a game changer I suspect it will be down to 'our' response to it, rather than the quantity of such attacks.

Because as with other forms of terrorism I think there are a couple of large barriers that prevent there being a large number of such attacks on a semi-regular basis:

1) There are not all that many people actually prepared to carry out such attacks.

2) A portion of those that are will spend ages fantasising about it and will blab to others about their plans and end up nicked as a result.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I've read enough reports of things like the Iranian embassy and what not to know that there's no such thing as a shoot to wound policy. Happy to be corrected, if you want to produce something. Funny how nobody walks away from armed response shootings alive, though.


 
Inaccurate. They don't tend to walk away alive if they're hit by multiple rounds. Single rounds won't necessarily kill you.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

Just up on live feed....


"Cameron : It has been widely reported that the suspects were known to security services, he says - he can't comment on that."

So, yes they were.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> TBF, I don't reckon old Pickers meant any harm by it though. A lot of people do have an often, at least partially, justifiable downer on afficionados of the white and the B, but I just couldn't see how Banhof read about this and the lightbulb above his head immediately illuminated whatever damp & mildew smelling room he found himself in with sixty watts of crackhead. Bag snatchings, bike thefts, shoplifting? Yes. Beheadings? Hardly an everyday gig.


 
Think I got the wrong end of the stick a bit to be honest, knackered and a bit stressed.

But that's just down to ignorance and stories about people in the US eating each other's faces and stuff. And an inability to distinguish between crack and PCP.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Think I got the wrong end of the stick a bit to be honest, knackered and a bit stressed.
> 
> But that's just down to ignorance and stories about people in the US eating each other's faces and stuff. And an inability to distinguish between crack and PCP.


an apology for your foul slur would show a nice spirit


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> an apology for your foul slur would show a nice spirit


 
What foul slur? I'll apologise anyway though, life's too short to be arguing with you.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 23, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> If Willie Whitelaw could describe uproar in 1970s NI as an "acceptable level of violence", the Powers that Be can probably tolerate the odd random beheading here and there. Your mileage may vary of course.


 
I remember being taught that at uni, it's not specific to Northern Ireland it's a general tendency. They recognise it's more or less impossible bar some dystopian police state to prevent individual acts of barbarity like this. They might be able to stop large terrorist networks with more complicated plans but stuff like this what can you do? The doctrine of accepting you can't ever fully elimate terrorist but can only aim to reduce it to an "acceptable level of violence" is shared quite widely in different countries dealing with different terrorist groups.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> What foul slur? I'll apologise anyway though, life's too short to be arguing with you.


go on then.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> I remember being taught that at uni, it's not specific to Northern Ireland it's a general tendency. They recognise it's more or less impossible bar some dystopian police state to prevent individual acts of barbarity like this. They might be able to stop large terrorist networks with more complicated plans but stuff like this what can you do? The doctrine of accepting you can't ever fully elimate terrorist but can only aim to reduce it to an "acceptable level of violence" is shared quite widely in different countries dealing with different terrorist groups.


so it is in fact NOT a general tendency, it is an attitude shared by some governments: quite a difference.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

J Ed said:


> ??
> 
> I thought he was referring to the way in which people stigmatise drug users, my like certainly was not agreeing with the idea that they should be. Have had enough problems in my own family with that to think that.


 
Forget it mate, bit stressed at the minute and I got the wrong end of the stick.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> go on then.


 
What was the foul slur?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Forget it mate, bit stressed at the minute and I got the wrong end of the stick.


something like that with an 'i'm sorry' somewhere would be grand.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/51092450285/man-killed-in-horrible-london-machete-attack-racist


reading on twitter, etc, so many of the most unpleasant tweets are from young people, people who have lived in multi-racial/cultural society/environments all their lives, had civic lessons, why is this, what has failed , if anything?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Forget it mate, bit stressed at the minute and I got the wrong end of the stick.


so you're apologising to everyone but me. ain't life grand.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

yield said:


> What? You not been plagued by junkies? I've had my fill of it.


 
Plagued.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'll be monitoring this post to see who 'likes' it. Couldn't wish for a more effective cunt detector. Must say I'm a bit surprised already.


this foul slur: that i and everyone who likes my post must be a cunt.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> so you're apologising to everyone but me. ain't life grand.


 
This is bizarre and I really can't be arsed with it. Sorry.

I would love to know what the 'foul slur' was though.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> This is bizarre and I really can't be arsed with it. Sorry.
> 
> I would love to know what the 'foul slur' was though.


you said above you'd apologise. now you say you won't.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> this foul slur.


 
That's not a slur of against you cos you were just stating fac... ah fuck it, nevermind.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> That's not a slur of against you cos you were just stating fac... ah fuck it, nevermind.


and where does this leave your promise of an apology?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you said above you'd apologise. now you say you won't.


 
I just fucking did, in the post you quoted there. Fucking hell.


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> that i and everyone who likes my post must be a cunt.


 
Well he was half right!


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think people getting sliced up in the street could ever become "routine". It would change our way of life.


 
Several people are routinely killed on our roads everyday...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Well he was half right!


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

anyone care to comment on my post above, the most racist seem to be the young, at least on twitter


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

2hats said:


> Several people are routinely killed on our roads everyday...


 
I may be misreading you, but you seem to be making allowances for what happened..


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> anyone care to comment on my post above, the most racist seem to be the young, at least on twitter


no

next


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Well he was half right!


That's not nice about JEd


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> this foul slur: that i and everyone who likes my post must be a cunt.


 
Actually just those who liked it. But I was wrong - they weren't but you are. It's really quite remarkable.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

2hats said:


> Several people are routinely killed on our roads everyday...


i think you'll find my post about teenage killings was more apposite


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Actually just those who liked it. But I was wrong - they weren't but you are. It's really quite remarkable.


maybe. but at least i'm not the lying little shit your promise of an apology and its subsequent non-appearance show you to be.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> She'll also be interesting to listen to at the trial. It'll be a fair trial in open court, resulting in long terms in HM prisons. No waterboarding, no military tribunal, no attempt to subvert justice by defining the killers as 'enemy combatants' or imprisoning them outside British territory. That's the only good thing to come out of this - that we'll show the US the fair way to deal with terrorists. Not that it will undo the legacy of Blair's slaughter of Iraqis, but it's a start.


 
Sure, they'll get a fair trial because they committed a crime.
What about those detainees in Belmarsh etc who were/are detained on "intelligence" that they're involved, but against whom no proof is presented - the people whom our government allowed violation of _habeas corpus_ in order to detain without charge - does that show the US the "fair" way to deal with terrorists too?


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> I may be misreading you, but you seem to be making allowances for what happened..


 
You are totally misreading me.

I'm referring to how society can become inured to daily death (eg RTA fatalities in this particular instance).


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe. but at least i'm not the lying little shit your promise of an apology and its subsequent non-appearance show you to be.


 


SpineyNorman said:


> This is bizarre and I really can't be arsed with it. *Sorry.*
> 
> I would love to know what the 'foul slur' was though.


 
Now give it a fucking rest.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> She's just been on morning TV.


Stealing Booya Dee's glory. 

*shakes fist at sky*


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Now give it a fucking rest.


please. give it a fucking rest _please._


----------



## elbows (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> reading on twitter, etc, so many of the most unpleasant tweets are from young people, people who have lived in multi-racial/cultural society/environments all their lives, had civic lessons, why is this, what has failed , if anything?


 
A fair portion of young people including ones I've recently come into contact with are even more obsessed with the differences between people than older people are. And they are not afraid to spout out 'simple but idiotic' solutions. I recall one debate when I was at school aged approximately 15 about Northern Ireland that involved some people coming up with 'nuke it' as a solution.

And sadly forms of racism etc that are based on complete ignorance and lack of contact with other sorts of people are not the only forms. Certainly with the bunch of youngsters I've had the opportunity to listen to at work in recent months, these sorts of things have gotten mixed in with the nauseating quest they are on to work out who they are themselves and fit in with their peers, come to terms with life. At the moment they are bloody obsessed with issues of gayness for example, but I also hear plenty of racial slurs and awful comments that taken on face value make me want to punch them, but probably expose their own insecurities, rivalries and attempts to treat the world flippantly in order to preserve the paper-thin idea that they've got it all sussed and are proper adults as much as anything else.


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you'll find my post about teenage killings was more apposite


 
Though, I'm given to understand, these suspected murderers ran their victim over first...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

2hats said:


> Though, I'm given to understand, these suspected murderers ran their victim over first...


a road rage incident then


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:


> dunno how representaive the EDL FB page is, but looks like theyve doubled their fucking "Likes" overnight ....


Facebook likes, it's not like they would all turn up. Still worrying though, some EDL protests might now get up to over 100 people.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-far-right-three-points

Matthew Godwin on last nights events, EDl, etc.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

paulhackett said:


>


 


The British Gasional Party is also rumoured to be up in arms.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

> As of today, about 50,000 new people will be receiving regular messages from the EDL into their Facebook news feed.


 
is this correct, don't have newsfeeds.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> is this correct, don't have newsfeeds.



Yep.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

According to someone on this thread they used to have 80,000.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-far-right-three-points
> 
> Matthew Godwin on last nights events, EDl, etc.


 
strangely there are no articles on the Guardian CIF site about the attack itself, only right wing reactions to the attack, they did the same with the abortive attack on the EDL by I/F's.


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

where to said:


> According to someone on this thread they used to have 80,000.


 
That's an _additional_ 50,000.

Overnight.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

where to said:


> According to someone on this thread they used to have 80,000.


 
so, its on the increase again?


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Means very little as the EDL have nothing to give these people - they won't go to demos, and they won't do individual stuff that involves them potentially being made targets, they have no political activity to give them: UKIP does, even if on less exciting level. False dawn for the EDL.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

actually, that's the mirror image of the problems the left has, thousands of FB supporters, etc, may just attend rallies, but no real further political involvement.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> so, its on the increase again?


 
81,629 at at 12.20 today

they had summit like 25K befre this


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

On a side note regarding the EDL...anyone see the guy on the news remonstrating with the police, EDL balaclava in his hand? Heh heh.

But, yeah, EDL irrelevant sideshow to all this.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Means very little as the EDL have nothing to give these people - they won't go to demos, and they won't do individual stuff that involves them potentially being made targets, they have no political activity to give them: UKIP does, even if on less exciting level. False dawn for the EDL.


Yes, I see it as an opportunistic move by the EDL yesterday that will have little lasting effect. Residents: oh no, not this as well, fuck off


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

elbows said:


> If it ends up a game changer I suspect it will be down to 'our' response to it, rather than the quantity of such attacks.
> 
> Because as with other forms of terrorism I think there are a couple of large barriers that prevent there being a large number of such attacks on a semi-regular basis:
> 
> ...


Yes but the very lack of planning means that it's more likely that people may do something on the spur of the moment, which may mean there is less attrition than for more traditional attacks. Feeling a bit depressed? Why not make your suicide mean something? etc.


----------



## scalyboy (May 23, 2013)

where to said:


> "Spoilt middle class black boy with too much time on his hands" says one on that Nigerian thread...


Sounds a bit like Ahmed Sheikh

"His father, Saeed Ahmed, was a Pakistani clothes merchant from Wanstead in east London.Omar Sheikh was reportedly a contemporary of England cricket captain Nasser Hussain at the private Forest School, in Snaresbrook. He moved to Lahore and studied at the elite Aitchison College for three years before returning to Forest School in the Sixth Form. After passing four A-levels with good grades, Omar Sheikh enrolled at LSE in October 1992."


----------



## dogDBC (May 23, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Good riddance then.


Cunt


----------



## DotCommunist (May 23, 2013)

has there been a statement from the mighty cXf on how they intend to combat this fresh new menace?


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

What might happen is that non EDL/political violence types, maybe UKIP, may call some kind of national demonstration, I think that would get considerable support from people.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> What might happen is that non EDL/political violence types, maybe UKIP, may call some kind of national demonstration, I think that would get considerable support from people.


Demonstrate against what?


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Regarding the whole Facebook thing, am I right in thinking you have to 'like' a page in order to post on it, or is that baloney? Just wondering if at least some of those new likes might be people wishing to... express a note of contrary opinion or concern.


----------



## J Ed (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> What might happen is that non EDL/political violence types, maybe UKIP, may call some kind of national demonstration, I think that would get considerable support from people.


 
I'm concerned about that too, especially after their testing the waters with getting involved with anti-immigrant demonstrations in Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire. I don't think it's too likely though.


----------



## brogdale (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> Demonstrate against what?


 
Peace, love and understanding?


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> Demonstrate against what?


 
against 'Islamic extremism', what happened in Woolwich and nearly happened in Birmingham.


----------



## Ranbay (May 23, 2013)

not-bono-ever said:


> 81,629 at at 12.20 today
> 
> they had summit like 25K befre this


 
23.something k day before yesterday.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> against 'Islamic extremism', what happened in Woolwich and nearly happened in Birmingham.


People aren't that stupid, surely? What, take to the streets and demand any extreme Islamists tone it down a bit?


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> 23.something k day before yesterday.


 
as someone posted on CIF, many of the new 'converts' are atmo frightened and angry, many thousands will delete these EDL links in the next couple of weeks,

but many won't..

but why has this thread moved onto the EDL, its about a young man getting his head hacked off..


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> ...but why has this thread moved onto the EDL, its about a young man getting his head hacked off..



I think that was your fault going on about their Facebook likes!


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

oops!


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Why wouldn't it become a trend?
> 
> These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.
> 
> And it's easy. All that's needed are a couple of choppers and the motivation to do it.




I commented earlier along the lines,  this sort of attack is basically impossible to defend against in advance. The autonomous and low tech nature of it. JimW made the point that it's qualatively different to spectacular attacks with explosivves and militry hardware.

So thinking about that. This sort of attack, I don't hink has the same wider impact as a tube bombing. The horror of 2 men hacking someone to death, is still psychologically graspable. Brutal and disturbing though the details are, to someone at a remove from being connected to the immediate event it's some how quantifiable. The victim it seems, was of course deliberately targetted too. This wasn't some mad rampage. A randam explosion,  mass shooting, partly due to the number of casualties that can be inflicted, still has more of a spectacular and wide reaching impression. Not least due to there being no identifiable target as such.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/51092450285/man-killed-in-horrible-london-machete-attack-racist
> 
> 
> reading on twitter, etc, so many of the most unpleasant tweets are from young people, people who have lived in multi-racial/cultural society/environments all their lives, had civic lessons, why is this, what has failed , if anything?


 
Some nasty little cunts on there


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2013)

B0B2oo9 said:


> https://twitter.com/jessicaaharrisx/status/337281140002004993


 
Wonder if she's deleted her account?

Francescaberryx seems to have disappeared.  Another nasty bit of work


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/51092450285/man-killed-in-horrible-london-machete-attack-racist
> 
> 
> reading on twitter, etc, so many of the most unpleasant tweets are from young people, people who have lived in multi-racial/cultural society/environments all their lives, had civic lessons, why is this, what has failed , if anything?


 
Some of that must be attention seeking and not serious.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

I've been saying for quite a while, nominally decent young people have on issues like benefits, migration, etc become very right wing indeed.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think people getting sliced up in the street could ever become "routine". It would change our way of life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
the scope of their ops was also limited by not wanting to cause civilian casualties as well, unlike these punters



> I hope I'm wrong but I can see this type of action becoming a game changer


 
it definitely seems to be a change of tack . It looks to me like an autonomous cell so to speak have figured out that networking with others in an attempt at the usual biggie is going to get them nicked from the outset. So theyve stuck together, planned and done their own thing that required the minimum of people and logistics and managed to hit the headlines. Other like minded punters are going to pick up on that success and compare it to the complete lack of success of numerous other failed plots . There could well be variations on the same theme in future .

Worth remembering the modus operandi of that german nazi cell that imploded last year too .

But what really disturbed me was that video of the guy ranting about how in the future people like him will be armed with firearms and the like popping up on your streets , bringing to mind Mumbai style stuff . First thing came into my head was the stupid fucking telly shouldnt have broadcast that . They were demanding people film them because they knew it would be headline news . That was the message they wanted to get accross to those wholl follow them, look what weve accomplished with this so now lets change direction lads . As far as i can see all that hampered these guys was logistics . Next punters may well decide to get tooled up with firearms, which cant be that hard to accomplish .


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> I've been saying for quite a while, nominally decent young people have on issues like benefits, migration, etc become very right wing indeed.


nominally?


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

> whiteknightberkshire
> 23 May 2013 12:47pm
> Recommend
> *0*
> ...


 

from CIf, interesting worrying post, fantasist or true?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> fantasist or true?


Seriously?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> from CIf, interesting worrying post, fantasist or true?


 
People come out with all sorts of bollocks, doesn't mean anything.

I sat in the same train carriage as someone last night who was giving it the big one on their phone about how "they shouldn't just be arrested, they should be tortured".

I think Kenan Malik is spot on with this:



> The general response has been a refusal to be terrorized, or to give in to bigotry. In that measured public response lies the real hope.


 
http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2013/05/23/reflections-on-woolwich/


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

STWC have issued a response linking the attack to Iraq, etc,

not good, imo..


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. .


 
but its not just any guy, theyve targetted military personnel outside a military base in your nations capital. Thats guaranteed them major kudos and hence their actions , and most importantly public exhortations, will influence others



> Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war


 
its not just what britain has done, its about British foreign policy in the entire muslim world and what its likely to do in the future as much as in the past . Britain is still in afghanistan and has bases all over the middle east . As long as you project power into what they see as the muslim backyard, indeed front yard , then people like this are going to feel justified in projecting what little power they have into yours .


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

FWIW Tommy Robinson will be interviewed on LBC this afternoon. Juliet Hartley-Brewer's show. I'm off out anyway so will miss it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

So, Thames House theatre using a couple of gullible prannets and an "expendable" squaddie, or genuine attack?

Me, I'm torn. I don't want to think "conspiracy", but there are a few things that aren't tracking yet - the whole event seems...convenient, for want of a better word.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> People come out with all sorts of bollocks, doesn't mean anything.
> 
> I sat in the same train carriage as someone last night who was giving it the big one on their phone about how "they shouldn't just be arrested, they should be tortured".
> 
> ...


This is excellent:



> It tells us less about his attachment to Islam than about his complete disengagement from British society. Islamism has become one expression of such disengagement and of such detachment from social norms.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> STWC have issued a response linking the attack to Iraq, etc,
> 
> not good, imo..



STWC are even more of an irrelevance than the EDL. there was a bit on he news where some talking head politician went into autopilot and slipped in a reference to ell elements of the Left supporting violent Islamism or something. But it's just habit IMO.

The Left don't have enough presence in public consciousness at the mo' to be brought into the in any meaningful way. Course Galloway might have other ideas, but would still be utterly peripheral to this.

I'm more curious to see what UKIP's response will be, if any.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, Thames House theatre using a couple of gullible prannets and an "expendable" squaddie, or genuine attack?
> 
> Me, I'm torn. I don't want to think "conspiracy", but there are a few things that aren't tracking yet - the whole event seems...convenient, for want of a better word.



The first thing that occurred to me was that it was a Belmarsh escape, tbh.


----------



## kittyP (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> People aren't that stupid, surely? What, take to the streets and demand any extreme Islamists tone it down a bit?


 
Sorry, I know it is not really a laughing matter but that did make me lol


----------



## JimW (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is excellent:


 
Not sure about his opener on it being "mad, barbarous" and nihilistic though - the bloke's demeanour talking to camera as much suggested someone carrying through a thought-out plan, brutal but not mad, and hard to speak to the nihilism without knowing if he held some fantasy of a universal Caliphate that wouldn't be.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

JimW said:


> Not sure about his opener on it being "mad, barbarous" and nihilistic though - the bloke's demeanour talking to camera as much suggested someone carrying through a thought-out plan, brutal but not mad, and hard to speak to the nihilism without knowing if he held some fantasy of a universal Caliphate that wouldn't be.


I think he means more on the level of - _i'm dead today so i'm going to go beyond all levels of collectively decided human social decency._ That sort of no-rules nihilism. Not political nihilism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> from CIf, interesting worrying post, fantasist or true?


 
Plastic SASman.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (May 23, 2013)

JimW said:


> the bloke's demeanour talking to camera as much suggested someone carrying through a thought-out plan


 
I think that_ marks him out_ as a psycho.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> The first thing that occurred to me was that it was a Belmarsh escape, tbh.


 
Thought the same thing until a revolver was mentioned.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think that_ marks him out_ as a psycho.


A primary signifier for psychopathy is a lack of affect, however...
It's a matter of a fair bit of research over the last couple of decades that most suicide attackers aren't "psycho" in any conventional sense, in that their willingnness to die isn't due to mental ill-health, it's due to a rational assessment of the asymmetry of offensive means between the attacker and the state.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thought the same thing until a revolver was mentioned.


It all makes sense if you look at it that way (for me). Explains much of the "eh" stuff.

What do you mean about the revolver, btw?


----------



## JimW (May 23, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think that_ marks him out_ as a psycho.


 
Convinced of his own righteousness also a possibility too though I reckon. All speculative from me of course, but just that opener from KM did leap right out so much so I thought he was quoting from the link. Point BA highlighted is excellent.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

gabi said:


> The guardian eye-witness account is fucking hilarious. sorry. but im not in the uk at the moment and am slightly homesick for it. i actually giggled reading that. the british....
> 
> standing over a half decapitated man, she asks the perp if theres anything else she can do for him before her bus leaves. then finds time to whinge about getting dropped off at the wrong stop. classic.


 
i had tea coming out of my nose watching the BBC yesterday afternoon . They were interviewing by phone a local eyewitness who was going on about owning a garage down the road . His accent sounded really _sarf london geezer..bit tasty.._sweeneys extra_.,_etc etc and i was mildly chiding myself for conjuring up such a stereotype in my mind just because of someones accent . When all of a sudden he tells the interviewer.._and then this geezer goes towards the armed police with a pistol in his hand. Thats just nuts..*even I wouldnt go up against the police with just a handgun*..._followed by quite a lengthy pause from both interviewer and interviewee.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

brogdale said:


> No comment from Blair yet?


 
hell say you should thank him, because if Britain hadnt invaded Iraq and killed all those people these guys would have had nukes and not knives . And hell expect you to thank him as well, and advise you to smell how sweet his farts are .


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

The guy from cif obviously wrote the nemises file or its equally "dodgy" new version


----------



## laptop (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, Thames House theatre using a couple of gullible prannets and an "expendable" squaddie, or genuine attack?
> 
> Me, I'm torn. I don't want to think "conspiracy", but there are a few things that aren't tracking yet - the whole event seems...convenient, for want of a better word.


 
Nah. No need. Some random shit can be relied to come up: then exploit it.

Cameron could hardly have been expected, under the circumstances, to say "this isn't serious terrorism, it's just swivel-eyed loons" - could he?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

laptop said:


> Nah. No need. Some random shit can be relied to come up: then exploit it.
> 
> Cameron could hardly have been expected, under the circumstances, to say "this isn't serious terrorism, it's just swivel-eyed loons" - could he?


not when it turned out yer man wasn't from the witney triangle


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> It all makes sense if you look at it that way (for me). Explains much of the "eh" stuff.
> 
> What do you mean about the revolver, btw?


 
The part of Belmarsh that the Muslim "politicals" are held in is high security. Getting a revolver in there would be akin to getting an elephant's dick up a mouse's arse - impossible. Shivs though, not quite as difficult.
So, the only *plausible* scenario if escape from Belmarsh was involved would be these blokes breaking out, and jumping into a car where a gun and knives had been deliberately stashed there for them, IYSWIM.
BTW, sounding like the revolver was a rebored Brocock (which uses cartridges charged with compressed air, but gets rebored by idiots so it'll take pistol ammo), so the fact that it blew up in the bandito's hand isn't surprising.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The part of Belmarsh that the Muslim "politicals" are held in is high security. Getting a revolver in there would be akin to getting an elephant's dick up a mouse's arse - impossible.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i had tea coming out of my nose watching the BBC yesterday afternoon . They were interviewing by phone a local eyewitness who was going on about owning a garage down the road . His accent sounded really _sarf london geezer..bit tasty.._sweeneys extra_.,_etc etc and i was mildly chiding myself for conjuring up such a stereotype in my mind just because of someones accent . When all of a sudden he tells the interviewer.._and then this geezer goes towards the armed police with a pistol in his hand. Thats just nuts..*even I wouldnt go up against the police with just a handgun*..._followed by quite a lengthy pause from both interviewer and interviewee.


 
Fortunately the interviewee managed to stop himself before blurting out "...now, if I 'ad me trusty double-barrel sawn-off, it's be a different story!!".


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>


 
Is that in Belmarsh, then?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Is that in Belmarsh, then?


no: in a german high security prison. and billy wright in a british high security prison. not to mention the brixton busters



so getting a weapon into a prison though difficult is not impossible


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no: in a german high security prison. and billy wright in a british high security prison. not to mention the brixton busters
> 
> 
> 
> so getting a weapon into a prison though difficult is not impossible




You really are an insufferably pedantick arsehole sometimes.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You really are an insufferably pedantick arsehole sometimes.


how many times in your lifetime has the impossible happened? you should know better by now that nothing is impossible.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

Re ukip, I read they emailed their members telling them not to comment for fear of media twisting. Not sure if true though. the silence is clear though.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The part of Belmarsh that the Muslim "politicals" are held in is high security. Getting a revolver in there would be akin to getting an elephant's dick up a mouse's arse - impossible. Shivs though, not quite as difficult.
> So, the only *plausible* scenario if escape from Belmarsh was involved would be these blokes breaking out, and jumping into a car where a gun and knives had been deliberately stashed there for them, IYSWIM.
> BTW, sounding like the revolver was a rebored Brocock (which uses cartridges charged with compressed air, but gets rebored by idiots so it'll take pistol ammo), so the fact that it blew up in the bandito's hand isn't surprising.


There's not many in the SSU though, is there (11 in 2009). Is that where you meant? I was thinking more along the lines of house block 3 and radicalisation inside.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

where to said:


> Re ukip, I read they emailed their members telling them not to comment for fear of media twisting. Not sure if true though. the silence is clear though.


link or stfu


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> There was, to be fair, no way to know that these men were more woman and child friendly than your average run of the mill terrorist.
> 
> Their apology for women and children having to see it makes me wonder if that may be part of the reason that they chose to attack one individual soldier (that they could tell themselves counted as a combatant) rather than an indiscriminate attack.
> 
> .


 
you dont seem to grasp that your average run of the mill terrorist has no interest in specifically killing women and kids ..although theyre prepared to accept them as collateral damage in the same way the western governments are ..and very often has no prior convictions for violent or anti social behaviour . And that apart from their radicalised beliefs they are often very normal people . Id lay a heavy bet theyve never stabbed anyone before.
These guys see themselves as going up against a bunch of mad dog indiscriminate mass murderers , and that they are the ones who are inherently decent .
They act according to a logic, drop bombs on muslim towns and kill civilians indiscriminately..then be prepared to face the same in your own towns . Target our soldiers for assassination, then we will target yours .
I said at the very outset of this thread before any islamic link was in the frame was what stood out was how discriminating they were, which right away said to me this was political and not just two crackheads .


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> you dont seem to grasp that your average run of the mill terrorist has no interest in specifically killing women and kids ..although theyre prepared to accept them as collateral damage in the same way the western governments are ..and very often has no prior convictions for violent or anti social behaviour . And that apart from their radicalised beliefs they are often very normal people . Id lay a heavy bet theyve never stabbed anyone before.
> These guys see themselves as going up against a bunch of mad dog indiscriminate mass murderers , and that they are the ones who are inherently decent .
> They act according to a logic, drop bombs on muslim towns and kill civilians indiscriminately..then be prepared to face the same in your own towns . Target our soldiers for assassination, then we will target yours .
> I said at the very outset of this thread before any islamic link was in the frame was what stood out was how discriminating they were, which right away said to me this was political and not just two crackheads .


Really? The 911 terrorists supposedly cut the throat of an air stewardess with a box cutter - you can't get much more up close and personal than that. Or didn't some woman get her head chopped off in Afghanistan?


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Really? The 911 terrorists supposedly cut the throat of an air stewardess with a box cutter - you can't get much more up close and personal than that.


No they didn't.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> link or stfu



The ex ukip youth leader who quit recently tweeted this yesterday.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> There's not many in the SSU though, is there (11 in 2009). Is that where you meant?


 
Yep.



> I was thinking more along the lines of house block 3 and radicalisation inside.


 
From what I've heard, the HO has been attempting to deal with the issue of radicalisation in prisons by putting potential radicals and potential radicalisers on the merry-go-round (basically, shifting inmates from prison to prison every 3-4 weeks) as a precautionary measure. That way you supposedly don't have inmates having enough time to make the sort of associations necessary.


----------



## D'wards (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> "A lot of English people"?
> care to quantify that, or a re you talking out of your arse?


Sigh - facking arsehole minefield round here


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

where to said:


> The ex ukip youth leader who quit recently tweeted this yesterday.


no, not who said it, LINK or stfu.


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Sigh - facking arsehole minefield round here


try and stop talking out of yours then


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Sigh - facking arsehole minefield round here


 
Not if you don't chat shite.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Really? The 911 terrorists supposedly cut the throat of an air stewardess with a box cutter - you can't get much more up close and personal than that. Or didn't some woman get her head chopped off in Afghanistan?


 
thats my point blown out of the water then


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> From what I've heard, the HO has been attempting to deal with the issue of radicalisation in prisons by putting potential radicals and potential radicalisers on the merry-go-round (basically, shifting inmates from prison to prison every 3-4 weeks) as a precautionary measure. That way you supposedly don't have inmates having enough time to make the sort of associations necessary.


I can see the sense of that. But it's entirely possible that people can radicalise despite those precautions, and it might not be noticed.


----------



## D'wards (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not if you don't chat shite.


 Am i being accused of some sort of racism here, or is it just pedantic semantics?


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The part of Belmarsh that the Muslim "politicals" are held in is high security. Getting a revolver in there would be akin to getting an elephant's dick up a mouse's arse - impossible. Shivs though, not quite as difficult.
> So, the only *plausible* scenario if escape from Belmarsh was involved would be these blokes breaking out, and jumping into a car where a gun and knives had been deliberately stashed there for them, IYSWIM.
> BTW, sounding like the revolver was a rebored Brocock (which uses cartridges charged with compressed air, but gets rebored by idiots so it'll take pistol ammo), so the fact that it blew up in the bandito's hand isn't surprising.


 


Out of interest, what makes you think it was a Brocock?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Am i being accused of some sort of racism here, or is it just pedantic semantics?


yes


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Am i being accused of some sort of racism here, or is it just pedantic semantics?


 
You were asked (by me) to substantiate your "a lot of people" claim. You didn't, therefore you, by a process of elimination, must have been chatting shite, so it's not about wither of the above, it's about you mouthing off.


----------



## D'wards (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes


 what?

Racism is surely stretching it a bit far


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> Out of interest, what makes you think it was a Brocock?


 
It was a revolver and it "blew up".
I've fired thousands of rounds through revolvers, and I've never had a round or a revolver blow up, or heard of one doing so - they're made to be able to withstand over-pressure by a factor of at least 2 - whereas I've heard numerous stories in the media and from acquaintances about Brococks either fracturing or blowing apart from the pressure of a single live round. Also, Brococks are still the most prevalent "modified" weapon available


----------



## D'wards (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You were asked (by me) to substantiate your "a lot of people" claim. You didn't, therefore you, by a process of elimination, must have been chatting shite, so it's not about wither of the above, it's about you mouthing off.


 
Sigh, okay then i'll indulge you to stop you getting all nasty

Judging by my facebook feed a lot of people on there, 95% being English, are supporters of Help the Heroes and regularly "share" pictures of support for them. This went into overdrive since the murder.

How do you cope in the real world if you take offence at something as innocuous as that? Your life must consist of you getting really angry and stamping your size sevens all day


----------



## ffsear (May 23, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Sigh, okay then i'll indulge you to stop you getting all nasty
> 
> Judging by my facebook feed a lot of people on there, 95% being English, are supporters of Help the Heroes


 

You fucking racist!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> I can see the sense of that. But it's entirely possible that people can radicalise despite those precautions, and it might not be noticed.


 
Oh, absolutely. I suspect that while the policy minimises the possibility, it doesn't eliminate it, and frankly screws aren't the most difficult people to outwit, even if they're not corrupt.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> no, not who said it, LINK or stfu.



That's as much as you get with manners like that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

D'wards said:


> Sigh, okay then i'll indulge you to stop you getting all nasty


 
If I were getting nasty, you'd know about it. 



> Judging by my facebook feed a lot of people on there, 95% being English, are supporters of Help the Heroes and regularly "share" pictures of support for them. This went into overdrive since the murder.


 
So what you actually mean is "a lot of people I know", which isn't the same as "a lot of people".




> How do you cope in the real world if you take offence at something as innocuous as that? Your life must consist of you getting really angry and stamping your size sevens all day


 
So many assumptions in such a short sentence!
I'm not "angry", I'm bemused by ignorance.
I haven't taken offence, I sought elucidation.
My life consists of plenty of things.
My feet are size ten, not size seven.

And you, you're a plum.


----------



## ffsear (May 23, 2013)

Love how they literally look like pigs here


----------



## D'wards (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If I were getting nasty, you'd know about it.
> 
> And you, you're a plum.


 
And you, sir, are a kumquat


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> They all carry tazers on their person as part of their kit. Looks like it was straight to the hip. Given the circumstances the sidearm was the correct weapon of choice.
> 
> On the car they carry a
> Remington shot gun (For animal destruction)
> ...


 
No MP5?

I'm thinking the officers, confronted by people running towards them with meat cleavers, would have had to use pistols and would barely have had a chance to aim. They did well to hit them at all. But everyone is conspiralooning about the mystery of them not being killed.


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> from CIf, interesting worrying post, fantasist or true?


 
A frank admission about all their dirty tricks, executions, collusion with loyalists, etc .  Interesting.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Love how they literally look like pigs here


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

where to said:


> That's as much as you get with manners like that.


this is urban, we all have manners like that


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Just seen them also doing a search on the TV.

Stupid question is stupid question, but: what are they searching for?  They've got the two guys, I can't imagine they're looking for 'clues'. Is it just making sure no weapons or 'owt were dropped?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> No MP5?
> 
> I'm thinking the officers, confronted by people running towards them with meat cleavers, would have had to use pistols and would barely have had a chance to aim. They did well to hit them at all. But everyone is conspiralooning about the mystery of them not being killed.


cops in crap at shooting shocker


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> A frank admission about all their dirty tricks, executions, collusion with loyalists, etc .  Interesting.



You utter plank http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Nemesis-File-Story-Execution/dp/185782167X
Next you be beliving this pile of poo


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Just seen them also doing a search on the TV.
> 
> Stupid question is stupid question, but: what are they searching for?  They've got the two guys, I can't imagine they're looking for 'clues'. Is it just making sure no weapons or 'owt were dropped?


they're searching for their lost overtime


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

ffsear said:


> Love how they literally look like pigs here


Pigs don't pray to allah. They might thank him though.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sure, they'll get a fair trial because they committed a crime.
> What about those detainees in Belmarsh etc who were/are detained on "intelligence" that they're involved, but against whom no proof is presented - the people whom our government allowed violation of _habeas corpus_ in order to detain without charge - does that show the US the "fair" way to deal with terrorists too?


But the Abu Qatada phenomenon is being resolved fairly and in accordance with European human rights law. The guy was under house arrest for ages, it can't have been fun for him, but it was about 10,000% more humane and patient than what the US would have done. I hope his story gets publicized in Islamic countries.


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> Just seen them also doing a search on the TV.
> 
> Stupid question is stupid question, but: what are they searching for?  They've got the two guys, I can't imagine they're looking for 'clues'. Is it just making sure no weapons or 'owt were dropped?



Any evidence plus bit embarrasing if a live round turns up might even be looking for the bullets the cop fired at them


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> But the Abu Qatada phenomenon is being resolved fairly and in accordance with European human rights law. The guy was under house arrest for ages, it can't have been fun for him, but it was about 10,000% more humane and patient than what the US would have done. I hope his story gets publicized in Islamic countries.


i sure it has been. but whether from the perspective you'd like ... there may lie some difficulty


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

likesfish said:


> You utter plank http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Nemesis-File-Story-Execution/dp/185782167X
> Next you be beliving this pile of poo


 
Uh?!  I haven't read anything on this, don't know anything about Nemesis file story.  Just remember all the shite that took place during the war (troubles).


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Police shoot to stop. If they shoot you and then you fall down they can't shoot you again they have to justify each shoot. While the army is taught to keep shooting until your sure he is dead and then if he hasn't surrendered a couple more is fine just to make sure he isn't faking being dead.
> If they had tasers they might well have used those. As taking life is supposedly the last resort.


 Army was two aimed shots into the center of the chest. If that was two SLR rounds...


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

I had a book by Kitson in the early 80's, (lent it to someone and never got it back), which got banned.  It exposed a lot about dirty tricks.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2013)

coley said:


> They knew this was coming off? slow response due to coordinating response, temporary change of SOP in order to have live suspects available for interrogation?


 
Perhaps. BBC News web site says that both suspects were 'known' to the intelligence services.


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Uh?!  I haven't read anything on this, don't know anything about Nemesis file story.  Just remember all the shite that took place during the war (troubles).



Some random nutjob gobbing off is not an admission of anything. 
  Dodgy stuff went down no doubt but I doubt anyone involved would be gobbing off on a cif about it.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Some random nutjob gobbing off is not an admission of anything.
> Dodgy stuff went down no doubt but I doubt anyone involved would be gobbing off on a cif about it.


 
whats the argument about...the collusion policy or someone talking about it on the internet..i dunno what a cif is


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

A lot of dodgy stuff went down.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Perhaps. BBC News web site says that both suspects were 'known' to the intelligence services.


 
all that admission means is they had their cards marked somewhere along the line


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

Comment is free the guardians board the chances of somebody actually having knowledge of what went on or didnt posting it is I d imagine fairly low.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> all that admission means is they had their cards marked somewhere along the line


i think it means a bit more than that: after all, mi5 collect the names of everyone who signs a petition or who writes to a paper.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> A lot of dodgy stuff went down.


 
the entire policy here was one of outright dodginess .


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

think they were marked as known radicals but not off a holiday to pakistan somalia or syria not considered a threat.
 oops


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> People aren't that stupid, surely? What, take to the streets and demand any extreme Islamists tone it down a bit?


 
When ETA let off bombs in Spain or assassinated people, millions took to the streets to protest spontaneiously. They were under no illusion that their protest would have effect but they needed to make themselves heard.

I think that any protest organised by a party like UKIP in reaction to this barbaric terrorist attack would attract a layer of people whose concerns overlap with a rejection of mass immigration. 

If the EDl have doubled their likes on facebook, just think of the prospects for UKIP now.

People are angered by the fact the attacker has a london accent.

This is what i have heard today;

_"They have lived in this country and been educated in this country and had all the benefits of being born here probably but they hate England. They make me sick. They should be sent back to their parents place in Africa see how they like it there"._


----------



## dylanredefined (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> No MP5?
> 
> I'm thinking the officers, confronted by people running towards them with meat cleavers, would have had to use pistols and would barely have had a chance to aim. They did well to hit them at all. But everyone is conspiralooning about the mystery of them not being killed.


 
 They would have 3 or 4 seconds which is plenty of time to draw and fire one round.A 9mm round will drop you ,but, unless its a brain or a heart shot not an instant kill and medical services can save you.
  MP5 is a bit old fashioned a 5.56mm rifle is preferred like the g36  now gives you more range and power without the over pentration.


----------



## JimW (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> all that admission means is they had their cards marked somewhere along the line


 
Some bit in the Guardian feed said they had them down as peripheral. One used to leaflet his high street apparently.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Yep, doesn't mean they followed - it means they were logged in some obv book and if came up on another radar a light flashed.


----------



## stuff_it (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It was a revolver and it "blew up".
> I've fired thousands of rounds through revolvers, and I've never had a round or a revolver blow up, or heard of one doing so - they're made to be able to withstand over-pressure by a factor of at least 2 - whereas I've heard numerous stories in the media and from acquaintances about Brococks either fracturing or blowing apart from the pressure of a single live round. Also, Brococks are still the most prevalent "modified" weapon available


Booya Dee reckoned it was a rusty .45.


----------



## JimW (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Booya Dee reckoned it was a rusty .45.


 
And this is one of at least three such incidents he's seen, so he'll know


----------



## Idaho (May 23, 2013)

It's a strange belief; that attacking and scaring normal people will somehow make them elect non - draconian governments. Foolish and tragic really. Also odd seeing as the biggest killers of average Muslims in Iraq are now AQ sympathisers attacking Shia.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Booya Dee reckoned it was a rusty .45.


 
Unless he was close enough to see the rounds, he wouldn't know. I strongly suspect that Brov Booya calls all pistols a "45", just like his older brother called all pistols a "9" 10 years ago.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 23, 2013)

Caught red handed!

Sorry, really bad taste I know but it's made me wonder if that saying started with this kind of thing - not people murdering and decapitating off duty squaddies on a busy highstreet but murderers being caught while they still have the victim's blood on their hands - it must have surely?


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

Idaho said:


> It's a strange belief; that attacking and scaring normal people will somehow make them elect non - draconian governments. Foolish and tragic really. Also odd seeing as the biggest killers of average Muslims in Iraq are now AQ sympathisers attacking Shia.


 

They don't want anyone to elect non-draconian governments, they want a war.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> No MP5?


 
Frieda probably means "2 carbines" when he wrote "2 rifles", tbf.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Idaho said:


> It's a strange belief; that attacking and scaring normal people will somehow make them elect non - draconian governments. Foolish and tragic really. Also odd seeing as the biggest killers of average Muslims in Iraq are now AQ sympathisers attacking Shia.


It's nothing to do with draconian or elections - it's to do overseas projection. And the spanish election following the train bombings gave them what they wanted - i'm not saying the two are causally connected but it appeared that way to them, to the fundies.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> They don't want anyone to elect non-draconian governments, they want a war.


 
 Why? Its not like they would win.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Assad killed 80 000 muslims so far. This is about two things: people alienated from this society and islamist freaks taking advantage of that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I had a book by Kitson in the early 80's, (lent it to someone and never got it back), which got banned. It exposed a lot about dirty tricks.


 
TBF, anything Sir Frank "psycho-torturer cunt" Kitson ever said, I tend to operate on the principle that the reverse is true. He was the worst thing that could have ever happened to Northern Ireland, and yet happen he did.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Police in evidence-planting shocker!!!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I had a book by Kitson in the early 80's, (lent it to someone and never got it back), which got banned. It exposed a lot about dirty tricks.


this would be low intensity operations i suppose.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> this would be low intensity operations i suppose.


 
Never been banned, that I'm aware.
he's a fucking shit writer, though. I read a historical biography he wrote of Cromwell. The prose was as dry as a mother superior's chuff.


----------



## laptop (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I had a book by Kitson in the early 80's, (lent it to someone and never got it back), which got banned. It exposed a lot about dirty tricks.


 
_Low-intensity Operations_. It's er, reviewed at libcom.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> this would be low intensity operations i suppose.





laptop said:


> _Low-intensity Operations_. It's er, reviewed at libcom.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

Left Unity are being urged by the usual cranks to offer a statement, just gesture politics, its not even a proper entity yet!


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, anything Sir Frank "psycho-torturer cunt" Kitson ever said, I tend to operate on the principle that the reverse is true. He was the worst thing that could have ever happened to Northern Ireland, and yet happen he did.


 
its all too true

heres an example of just one character exemplified by his euphemistic term _the use of freindly local forces..._just one cunt mind






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Jackson


----------



## elbows (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Assad killed 80 000 muslims so far. This is about two things: people alienated from this society and islamist freaks taking advantage of that.


 
Its a twist on the concept of countercultures that I havent seen explored much yet, think I briefly alluded to this in the Boston bombing thread.

A Clockwork Koran, with several additional avenues for moral panic.


----------



## elbows (May 23, 2013)

Turn on, tune in and chop out.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Individual stuff is a sign of breakdown of organisation or of defeat.


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> this would be low intensity operations i suppose.


 
I just remember counter-insurgency tactics in its title.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I just remember counter-insurgency tactics in its title.


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

You want a "'military" solution kitsons your man shows the lack of knowledge of NI that people actually thought that was ever an answer.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

likesfish said:


> You want a "'military" solution kitsons your man shows the lack of knowledge of NI that people actually thought that was ever an answer.


 
worked eventually though with a bit of refinement.


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Never been banned, that I'm aware.
> he's a fucking shit writer, though. I read a historical biography he wrote of Cromwell. The prose was as dry as a mother superior's chuff.


 
The 108 bookshop in Cardiff definitely got a request to return the books to the publisher/distributor, and not to sell any more copies.


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

likesfish said:


> You want a "'military" solution kitsons your man shows the lack of knowledge of NI that people actually thought that was ever an answer.


 
What people?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2013)

likesfish said:


> You want a "'military" solution kitsons your man shows the lack of knowledge of NI that people actually thought that was ever an answer.


i do think that his influence on british policy in the six counties has been somewhat overstated


----------



## JimW (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Never been banned, that I'm aware.
> he's a fucking shit writer, though. I read a historical biography he wrote of Cromwell. The prose was as dry as a mother superior's chuff.


 
I had that Cromwell one (in the back of me cab once) - Cromwell as general sort of thing as i recall. Was piss-poor, I agree.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

likesfish said:


> You want a "'military" solution kitsons your man shows the lack of knowledge of NI that people actually thought that was ever an answer.


You got paid money to be in the army. There are no ends with kitson. Techniques as politics. Grow up, you're in your late 50s now.


----------



## friedaweed (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> No MP5?
> 
> I'm thinking the officers, confronted by people running towards them with meat cleavers, would have had to use pistols and would barely have had a chance to aim. They did well to hit them at all. But everyone is conspiralooning about the mystery of them not being killed.


Aye that's what I meant by rifley things. I don't play COD so they all just look like guns to me. I had hold of one last week, freaked the shit out of me.


----------



## Idaho (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Individual stuff is a sign of breakdown of organisation or of defeat.


It's a logical conclusion.


----------



## Corax (May 23, 2013)

brogdale said:


> Seems like Robinson's call at 5.44 was a pretty good one, eh?
> 
> Why'd ya get so wound up about his post, (that I re-posted)?


Have you got a serious comprehension problem?

That it turned out to be correct, does _*not*_ mean that taking his post as fact so soon after the event was a sensible thing to do. I'm starting to wonder if you're genuinely a bit thick.



Corax said:


> Huge pinch of salt to all reports at this point, IMO. Eyewitnesses are shit.





Corax said:


> *Pinch of salt does not mean 'wrong',* by the way. Google it if needs be.


 
People latching on to initial reports and speculation cause panic, confusion, and in the worst cases puts innocent people at risk when the wrong culprits are 'identified'. It's an entirely dense and counterproductive way to react, has been demonstrated as utterly stupid after numerous previous 'major events', and is driven by nothing more than a morally repugnant glee and excitement in seeing a dramatic event unfold before their eyes. And yet still you defend it.


----------



## Corax (May 23, 2013)

lagtbd said:


> You can think what you like. You're still spouting poorly understood conjecture about mental health on the internet. We can't and don't know a thing, but there's no evidence of any acute illness in that clip.


I agree within accepted definitions of mental illness.  But those definitions are to some extent arbitrary, and some might argue that they could be drawn a lot wider.

I can see the argument both ways personally.  Discussion for a different thread though I guess.


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

Lee Rigby was the victim
'served' in Afghanistan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22644857


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

I thought the family had asked his name not be used?


----------



## laptop (May 23, 2013)

Lord Camomile said:


> I thought the family had asked his name not be used?


 
I remember seeing a "yet" in there.

They'll have had some very gentle pressure from sympathetic senior officers, I'll warrant.


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

when? yesterday?
bound to get out and be used either way


----------



## JHE (May 23, 2013)

> According to BBC sources, Mr Adebolajo, a Briton of Nigerian descent, comes from a devout Christian family but took up Islam after leaving college in 2001


 
Converts to the religion of peace and tolerance are disproportionately highly represented among jihadis in Britain.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2013)

Can't remember when it was, just remember hearing it at some point (though I think likelihood is it was today).


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

Belushi said:


> The demographics have changed quite rapidly in the past 20 years, it was overwhelmingly white in the early 90's and a lot of the pubs were out and out racist. I was in Woolwich last year for the first time in about ten years and although theres been some money spent on the centre there's still a lot of deprivation.


Woolwich and Plumstead High St area have long been pretty deprived, ditto charlton, but I think you're right re; demographics


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

agricola said:


> A Communications Data Bill of the kind that Lord West and that Reid advocate wouldnt have prevented this attack - if the security services were interested in them (at least to the degree that would be required to prevent this) they would almost certainly have had access to that sort of information / data already. As for "a new sort of terrorism", you are right that its virtually impossible to guard against (lets face it people stab and chop each other up for usually daft non-political reasons on occasion in London already) but I doubt that it would lead to a wider trend of attacks - as that schoolteacher apparently said to one of the suspects, there are more of us than there is of them, they would lose.


from what I hear, these two wankers were already on the police/SB radar anyway


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> Woolwich and Plumstead High St area have long been pretty deprived, ditto charlton, but I think you're right re; demographics


Aye, those are still socially deprived areas but the mix of people has shifted along. It's a bit like the East End in that way, although different mix of people.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

So the total domestic blowback from our adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Yemen, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya etc etc etc is one dead yesterday, 52 dead and 700 injured in the 7/7 bombings, 5 injured at Glasgow airport in 2007...is that the lot? All in all I feel we've got off quite lightly. We should be feeling....pleased? Relieved? Smug? Victorious? Ashamed? Disgusted? Frightened? How does everyone feel, on this little island which is so determined to punch above its weight?


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> A mate of mine I sometimes go out with occasionally (although not very close tbf) has posted some stuff that's a bit - "it's not about religion, it's about illegal immigrants coming to this country and wanting to kill us all"  it's weird as well because she's a traveller originally


It's even weirder cos one of them was British-born, and the other was in the counttry entirely legally


----------



## ffsear (May 23, 2013)

He was a Dad,  2 year old son.


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

editor said:


> Still trying to work out how the EDL turning up at Woolwich and then throwing bottles at the police fits in with 'defending' the UK from Johnny Foreigners.


given that EDL members are generally not the sharpest tools in the box, I doubt very much if they've worked that one out either as yet


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So the total domestic blowback from our adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Yemen, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya etc etc etc is one dead yesterday, 52 dead and 700 injured in the 7/7 bombings, 5 injured at Glasgow airport in 2007...is that the lot? All in all I feel we've got off quite lightly. We should be feeling....pleased? Relieved? Smug? Victorious? Ashamed? Disgusted? Frightened? How does everyone feel, on this little island which is so determined to punch above its weight?


Angry, frustrated, ignored, saddened.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> They would have 3 or 4 seconds which is plenty of time to draw and fire one round.A 9mm round will drop you ,but, unless its a brain or a heart shot not an instant kill and medical services can save you.
> MP5 is a bit old fashioned a 5.56mm rifle is preferred like the g36 now gives you more range and power without the over pentration.


 
Don't get shot by the RAMC, we know where the heart is.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So the total domestic blowback from our adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Yemen, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya etc etc etc is one dead yesterday, 52 dead and 700 injured in the 7/7 bombings, 5 injured at Glasgow airport in 2007...is that the lot? All in all I feel we've got off quite lightly. We should be feeling....pleased? Relieved? Smug? Victorious? Ashamed? Disgusted? Frightened? How does everyone feel, on this little island which is so determined to punch above its weight?


 
I forgot the stabbing of Stephen Timms MP, who's on R4 right now


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> They would have 3 or 4 seconds which is plenty of time to draw and fire one round.A 9mm round will drop you ,but, unless its a brain or a heart shot not an instant kill and medical services can save you.
> MP5 is a bit old fashioned a 5.56mm rifle is preferred like the g36 now gives you more range and power without the over pentration.


I would still give 'em a gold star for marksmanship - imagine the stress of a blood-covered man with a cleaver charging at you...and you've got to check that there are no civilians behind him before you pull the trigger.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> Left Unity are being urged by the usual cranks to offer a statement, just gesture politics, its not even a proper entity yet!


 
That is the bunch of cowardly, brain dead wankers that hold sway over PCS.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is the bunch of cowardly, brain dead wankers that hold sway over PCS.


No it is not.


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

ffsear said:


> He was a Dad, 2 year old son.


always sad when they show pics of young kids and sometimes babies they've never seen of the 'brave soldier' who died as a 'hero' whilst 'defending his country' in some far away place on tv

consequence of being a part of the war machine and signing up


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is the bunch of cowardly, brain dead wankers that hold sway over PCS.


what? anything to back that weird statement up?


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> People aren't that stupid, surely? What, take to the streets and demand any extreme Islamists tone it down a bit?


EDL members are, as has been noted, not known for rocket-scientist intelligence levels


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> EDL members are, as has been noted, not known for rocket-scientist intelligence levels


Yes, but they're not exactly at the zenith of their movement and are usually met with resistance from the local communities that they demonstrate in.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

ddraig said:


> what? anything to back that weird statement up?



leftunity.org.uk = PCS people

leftunity.org = new lefty party

Hth


----------



## dylanredefined (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I would still give 'em a gold star for marksmanship - imagine the stress of a blood-covered man with a cleaver charging at you...and you've got to check that there are no civilians behind him before you pull the trigger.


             The training works its all muscle memory and built in reactions. Afterwards the stress will come even in a clear cut case like this.
It sounds like a cool job until you actually  have to pull the trigger.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

ddraig said:


> what? anything to back that weird statement up?


He's confused the internal PCS let unity group with a totally different one that has nothing to do with the PCS.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 23, 2013)

ddraig said:


> when? yesterday?
> bound to get out and be used either way


 
So that makes it alright for _you_ to be the first wanker to use it on this forum? Dickhead.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Don't get shot by the RAMC, we know where the heart is.


 
  Don't worry the QA's are also medics and they are not to be trusted with sharpened sticks.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

I can think of a bunch of cowardly, brain dead wankers that hold sway over PCS though.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Pity you lot can't be trusted with firearms generally. Geneva convention means I can't stag on.


Is this literally all you have  - i have shot a gun. It's obv made a lasting impression on you as it seems to be all you talk about.


----------



## laptop (May 23, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> So that makes it alright for _you_ to be the first wanker to use it on this forum? Dickhead.


 
Eh? ddraig was making a thoughtful comment about the pressure on the family to permit it to be used - in, er 551 Google News results and counting. Dimwit.


----------



## Giles (May 23, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Caught red handed!
> 
> Sorry, really bad taste I know but it's made me wonder if that saying started with this kind of thing - not people murdering and decapitating off duty squaddies on a busy highstreet but murderers being caught while they still have the victim's blood on their hands - it must have surely?


 
I always assumed that this was exactly what it meant. Fairly obvious, like "smoking gun".

Giles..


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> So that makes it alright for _you_ to be the first wanker to use it on this forum? Dickhead.


jog on shitstain


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

BBC about to show one of killers at Al-M demo in 2007 apparently.


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

oh well, you know, rahrah, carry on toodle pip
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22646999


> General Sir David Richards told the BBC that he was "very confident that base security is as tight as it's ever been", and that it was now safe for military staff to wear their uniforms again, although "common sense" should be used.


not even pretending to be sad


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

Joint statement issued by Stop the War and CND:



> The attack in Woolwich yesterday was horrific. There can be no justification for a murderous attack on an individual soldier in the streets of London. It must have been awful too for the local people who witnessed it.
> 
> The Woolwich attack, carried out by two men now shot and wounded and under arrest in hospital, appears to represent a phenomenon that was pointed out nearly a decade ago by the security services in Britain: that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq would lead to a growing threat of terrorism in Britain. Many of us have long predicted that these sorts of attacks would happen because of the war on terror.
> 
> ...


----------



## Divisive Cotton (May 23, 2013)

I've been avoiding the news over the last 24 hours. It's just too depressing. To me ideological Islamism is as dangerous as fascism, but I do have a some appreciation of the attackers frustration. We've been at continuous war since 2001 and what do the British public think that British soldiers are doing abroad? Helping old grannies to cross the road and social work amongst the poor downtrodden Afghan masses? There seems to be a total disconnection between the public perception of the British army and what they are actually doing. Sorry, I haven't read any of this thread. Just posting a thought I've been musing on today.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

where to said:
			
		

> BBC about to show one of killers at Al-M demo in 2007 apparently.



Still from this now on Twitter.

Michael Abelojajo (sp) in white robes, white skull cap thing, black and white Palestine scarf, angry face.

They just broadcast it now.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

This is two further arrests. 



> A 29-year-old man [C] was arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to murder under PACE.
> 
> A 29-year-old woman [D] was arrested at residential address in south London on suspicion of conspiracy to murder under PACE. They both remain in custody at a south London police station


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> A frank admission about all their dirty tricks, executions, collusion with loyalists, etc . Interesting.


nope, more like a stores clerk bigging himself up. It's unlikely anyone genuinel;y involved in all that shitwould bigmouth about it on CIF


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> How does everyone feel, on this little island which is so determined to punch above its weight?


 
are you sure its not punch those below your weight, usually while big brother USA holds them down first


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> nope, more like a stores clerk bigging himself up. It's unlikely anyone genuinel;y involved in all that shitwould bigmouth about it on CIF


And still have a mouth to talk.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I forgot the stabbing of Stephen Timms MP, who's on R4 right now


 
you  could possibly put jill dando in there too


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is two further arrests.


 
got a feeling there'll be a lot more of that to come in the next few days. I bet there's a lot of his mates who'll be looking to get out the country as fast as possible right now.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2013)

> 6.33pm BST
> The White House has issued a statement from President Obama descibing the attack as an "horrific act".
> I condemn in the strongest terms the appalling attack against a British service member in Woolwich on May 22. The United States stands resolute with the United Kingdom, our ally and friend, against violent extremism and terror. There can be absolutely no justification for such acts, and our thoughts and prayers are with the family of the victim, the police and security services responding to this horrific act and the communities they serve, and the British people. *Our special relationship with the United Kingdom is especially important during times of trial, and I look forward to my trip to the United Kingdom to participate in the June G-8 Summit, hosted by Prime Minister Cameron, which will include discussions on the important global security challenges our countries face together.*​



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/m...elopments-live#block-519e50a6e4b0371c681fa066


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Oh shit. Fucking Obama probably scheduled to swing by Woolwich, make a huge fuss, and cause bloody traffic jams.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So the total domestic blowback from our adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Yemen, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya etc etc etc is one dead yesterday, 52 dead and 700 injured in the 7/7 bombings, 5 injured at Glasgow airport in 2007...is that the lot? All in all I feel we've got off quite lightly. We should be feeling....pleased? Relieved? Smug? Victorious? Ashamed? Disgusted? Frightened? How does everyone feel, on this little island which is so determined to punch above its weight?


 
up to now Britain has only been facing domestically  very ad hoc and inexperienced networks of what can often be described as losers and fantasists.
Personally i think fucking with Syria was a bad idea, fucking with Iran HezB etc wouldnt be very wise either . Those people have a global reach. One of these days someone who actually knows what theyre doing could well decide to return a serve and it wouldnt be pretty.


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

Shocked that Assad Ahmed (bbc lon news) has shown the location of a community centre used by radical muslims 'banned' from Woolwich mosque.  Imagine the EDL will be there tomorrow.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

Excellent timing for a visit from the anti-christ. Warm weather, Stop G8, EDL, Help for Heroes, Muslims Against Crusades, Stop the War...could be quite a bunfight.


----------



## Streathamite (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Why? Its not like they would win.


glorious martyrdom?


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Excellent timing for a visit from the anti-christ. Warm weather, Stop G8, EDL, Help for Heroes, Muslims Against Crusades, Stop the War...could be quite a bunfight.


 
Yeah I was thinking just the same. I think we're in for some trouble this summer.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Shocked that Assad Ahmed (bbc lon news) has shown the location of a community centre used by radical muslims 'banned' from Woolwich mosque. Imagine the EDL will be there tomorrow.


Imagine 'they' will be nowhere near.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Excellent timing for a visit from the anti-christ. Warm weather, Stop G8, EDL, Help for Heroes, Muslims Against Crusades, Stop the War...could be quite a bunfight.




I haven't spoken to my dad but I can imagine a laconic commentary from him as the news is on "I suppose this means that the United Bloody Nations [aka Morrisons, Thamesmead] are now desperately trying to recruit a radical Islamist for the checkouts just to be fair"


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Imagine 'they' will be nowhere near.


 
EDL have threatened to disrupt Friday prayers.


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> Out of interest, what makes you think it was a Brocock?


 
Yeah, is this confirmed?


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> EDL have threatened to disrupt Friday prayers.


'They' can threaten what they like. Where are they going to disrupt prayers. Which mosque? It's rubbish. It is though, their best chance to get the war they want. And they will bottle it.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Shocked that Assad Ahmed (bbc lon news) has shown the location of a community centre used by radical muslims 'banned' from Woolwich mosque.  Imagine the EDL will be there tomorrow.



Is there a pub down the road and around the corner?


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> 'And they will bottle it.



No they'll bottle the cops.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 23, 2013)

EDL got some pretty negative feedback for throwing stuff and fighting cops. made them look like nobs as usual. newcastle antifascists need to mobilise.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

It's not The EDL we need to worry about.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> EDL got some pretty negative feedback for throwing stuff and fighting cops. made them look like nobs as usual. newcastle antifascists need to mobilise.


Yeah, give them what they want. You're not going. You need the edl to exist.


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It was a revolver and it "blew up".


 
Haven't seen reports of this but I'm sure that like me, you've seen (even well attended) guns "blow up".

Best one that I'm aware of was a bloke with a brand new Silver Pigeon who blew his back barrels and lock to fuck on his first shot. Turned out that he'd left the gun lying around and his kid got hold of it and tried to shoot a .410 through it. When that didn't work, rather than telling his dad there was a .410 shell dropped just beyond the chamber, I reckon the kid thought 'maybe no one will notice', drpped his shoulders and whistled .... "wasn't me".

Easy to blame the shooter for not checking his barrels, but he got paid-out with a face-full of Beretta's finest walnut.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Easy to blame the shooter for not checking his barrels, but he got paid-out with a face-full of Beretta's finest walnut.



Ah, the poetry of the sot  

Not seen anything about the gun exploding on the BBC or C4 news but admittedly not been glued to it 24/7


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 23, 2013)

Put C4 on - radical cleric shouting at Kathy


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

Not sure I'm right to say think/say this, but I have at times felt uncomfortable about conversion/radicalisation of some young Black men, especially those who have lived troubled lives and are vulnerable to exploitation.   Most mosques/Muslims are responsible and would not encourage this, indeed, many have rejected members pushing 'jihadi' agendas.  I remember a local mosque doing a lot of work with young men holding very distorted and misguided views about Islam and what it allowed them to do in the name of Islam.  However, are some elements within the Muslim community (just as in all others) whose motives are to use and exploit to further their agendas.


----------



## ddraig (May 23, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> Put C4 on - radical cleric shouting at Kathy


he's a dickhead


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> 'They' can threaten what they like. Where are they going to disrupt prayers. Which mosque? It's rubbish. It is though, their best chance to get the war they want. And they will bottle it.


 
Duh, the one in Woolwich that Assad Ahmed named.  Its a possibilty.  How is it rubbish?  You're very confrontational, aren't you?!


----------



## shygirl (May 23, 2013)

Great input by Ms Siddiqui on C4


----------



## sihhi (May 23, 2013)

Can someone actually fill me in. Have EDL networks called for nationwide protests?


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Duh, the one in Woolwich that Assad Ahmed named. Its a possibilty. How is it rubbish? You're very confrontational, aren't you?!


Not really. The edl can't a force together to disrupt anything. On what should have been their night they get a centralised 60. Most mosques can turn that over. This is their best chance to inflame muslim/non-muslim relations. They will bottle it. What of this is confrontational?


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> Don't worry the QA's are also medics and they are not to be trusted with sharpened sticks.


 
I remember a piece of graffiti 'I only shag QAs because I'm too lazy to wank'.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2013)

ddraig said:


> what? anything to back that weird statement up?


 
Our total lack of meaningful industrial action. They seem to think that two hour walk outs, and a quarterly strike day has the government quaking in its boots.


----------



## ibilly99 (May 23, 2013)

Why do the media wheel out Islamofascist Anjem Choudary every time something like this happens- he's just been on Channel 4 News and is due on Newsnight tonight. No sense of regret at what has happened no sense of any humanity in his spoutings of hate.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2013)

chilango said:


> leftunity.org.uk = PCS people
> 
> leftunity.org = new lefty party
> 
> Hth


 
And I'm supposed to differentiate... how exactly?


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Haven't seen reports of this but I'm sure that like me, you've seen (even well attended) guns "blow up".
> 
> Best one that I'm aware of was a bloke with a brand new Silver Pigeon who blew his back barrels and lock to fuck on his first shot. Turned out that he'd left the gun lying around and his kid got hold of it and tried to shoot a .410 through it. When that didn't work, rather than telling his dad there was a .410 shell dropped just beyond the chamber, I reckon the kid thought 'maybe no one will notice', drpped his shoulders and whistled .... "wasn't me".
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Our total lack of meaningful industrial action. They seem to think that two hour walk outs, and a quarterly strike day has the government quaking in its boots.


Yet you've connected two different groups. One a broad-left group within the PCS and one a political aggregation that has nothing to do with the PCS or the group you mistook them for.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 23, 2013)

ibilly99 said:


> Why do the media wheel out Islamofascist Anjem Choudary every time something like this happens- he's just been on Channel 4 News and is due on Newsnight tonight. *No sense of regret at what has happened no sense of any humanity in his spoutings of hate.*



That's why then. 'Give him enough rope' scenario.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> And I'm supposed to differentiate... how exactly?


By one being a group internal to the PCS and the other having nothing to do with the PCS.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> That's why then. 'Give him enough rope' scenario.


What, us and the media together? Really? It's because he's a tout.


----------



## where to (May 23, 2013)

ibilly99 said:
			
		

> Why do the media wheel out Islamofascist Anjem Choudary every time something like this happens- he's just been on Channel 4 News and is due on Newsnight tonight. No sense of regret at what has happened no sense of any humanity in his spoutings of hate.



Because he shares the accent of those that put him on.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What, us and the media together? Really? It's because he's a tout.



I didn't read the post properly and now too late to edit   

A tout? Like that undercover cop guy?


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 23, 2013)

Longer quote from a clip




> The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers, and this British soldier is one, and it’s an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the sharia in Muslim lands. Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? Rather, you are extreme.
> You are the ones. When you talk of bombs, do you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family. This is the reality. By Allah, if I saw your mother today with a buggy, I would help her up the stairs. This is my nature. But we are forced by … many many [sections] throughout the Koran that we must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
> I apologise that women had to see this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments. They don't care about you. Do you think David Cameron is gonna get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? Do you think the politicians are gonna die? No, it's gonna be the average guy – like you, and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace. Leave our lands and you will live in peace. That’s all I have to say. Allah’s peace and blessings be upon you. Salaam alaikum


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> I didn't read the post properly and now too late to edit
> 
> A tout? Like that undercover cop guy?


Yeah.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Haven't seen reports of this but I'm sure that like me, you've seen (even well attended) guns "blow up".
> 
> Best one that I'm aware of was a bloke with a brand new Silver Pigeon who blew his back barrels and lock to fuck on his first shot. Turned out that he'd left the gun lying around and his kid got hold of it and tried to shoot a .410 through it. When that didn't work, rather than telling his dad there was a .410 shell dropped just beyond the chamber, I reckon the kid thought 'maybe no one will notice', drpped his shoulders and whistled .... "wasn't me".
> 
> Easy to blame the shooter for not checking his barrels, but he got paid-out with a face-full of Beretta's finest walnut.


 

 Another one i heard involves the practice of putting a small coin(at the time it was a5p piece) down the barrel  and pull the trigger to check the pins. Unfortunately there was a Gamebore Magnum in the chamber at the time.


----------



## 5t3IIa (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah.



Wait, Anjem Choudary is a... wait, what?


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

Local fora reporting about twenty EDL types outside Sheffield City Hall, after a call for a demo at 7pm, I don't think this is a revival,

yet...


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

did they have an anti-muslim appearance?


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

> Not sure I was walking home - they were sporting a number of flags (Rainbow Flagm and a Solidarity banner), so it was very difficult to tell, but they were singing by one of the fountains, at the other fountains were about 2 dozen people with hoodies 3 with the ST George Flag draped around their shoulders. Looking very menacing and peed off,


 
actually, it seems a bit more complex than I first posted, some sort of peace protest and counter one, confusing.


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> Longer quote from a clip


 
That reads as really confused rhetoric that says nothing to help ordinary people in any country.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> That reads as really confused rhetoric that says nothing to help ordinary people in any country.


Odd that. I can see no reason why it might read that way.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

Afaik, EDL have never had a visible presence here though I'm sure they have lots of supporters.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

I think a lot of British people are very strange . The fucking gurkhas have been running about hacking soldiers up and cutting soldiers heads off for ages now and theres well supported campaigns to give them British citizenship and the like . Theyre British heroes who have a huge big fuck off hacker knife as an emblem .







 If one of them hacked a jihadists head off thered be pats on the back all round, well done plucky little mountain warrior etc. But someone does it to a British soldier and its an unspeakable act of savagery, gruesome barbarism etc . Which it is,its disgusting,  but it seems to be much less barbaric when the British army  do it .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

I knew it was 'the brits fault'


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Odd that I can see no reason why it might read that way.


 
.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

So you've removed a . and posted one yourself. Star.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I knew it was 'the brits fault'


 
what was


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2013)

Don't know if it's been mentioned already here. I ventured into The Sun's website today to see what kind of agenda they would try to push on the story. Sure enough, the opinion column ranted about our 'soft justice system' for letting out early some guy convicted of plotting to kill a soldier in 2007, saying "Let's hope it does not turn out that this move encouraged the killers to carry out this attack".

Yes, because those two cunts yesterday were clearly so concerned about the possibility of being caught by the police and sent to jail


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> what was


Everything generally. In this case the killing. There is a more cowardly version over here.


----------



## Spymaster (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I think a lot of British people are very strange . The fucking gurkhas have been running about hacking soldiers up and cutting soldiers heads off for ages now and theres well supported campaigns to give them British citizenship and the like . Theyre British heroes who have a huge big fuck off hacker knife as an emblem .


eluooday man!


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So you've removed a . and posted one yourself. Star.


 
Let other people express themselves without running around acting like you have some kind of correct line. You don't. You are an embarrassment.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Everything generally. In this case the killing. There is a more cowardly version over here.


 
well no I dont blame them for you being a wanker for instance, you managed that without help from anyone. Im merely contrasting the great British publics attitude to one bunch of crazed head hackers to another bunch of crazed head hackers . And the issue of hacking soldiers head off in general ..which seems to be perfectly fine behaviour as long as its someone elses soldiers and not their own .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> well no I dont blame them for you being a wanker for instance, you managed that without help from anyone. Im merely contrasting the great British publics attitude to one bunch of crazed head hackers to another bunch of crazed head hackers . And the issue of hacking soldiers head off in general ..which seems to be perfectly fine behaviour as long as its someone elses soldiers and not their own .


Which it is - creeping up on some enemy in the night/ chopping some blokes head off in the middle of a city. But i guess - all is war. Is that what you think? Would like a yes or no answer on that. As you put it out here for debate.


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2013)

A while ago on a thread here about the Gurkhas someone said that their reglament knife has a small spike near the handle for the Gurkha to cut his finger with, because it is their philosophy that once the knife is pulled out, it _must_ draw blood. So if the situation defuses and they do no longer need to use the knife on others, they prick their finger so blood is drawn.

I don't know if it is true or bollocks, but if it is true they don't strike me as a very rational or balanced lot.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> And I'm supposed to differentiate... how exactly?



I don't care whether you do or not.

Two different groups, same name, very very similar web addresses.

I can differentiate between them easily enough.

Up to you if you can be bothered or not.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Which it is - creeping up on some enemy in the night/ chopping some blokes head off in the middle of a city. But i guess - all is war. Is that what you think? Would like a yes or no answer on that. As you put it out here for debate.


 
you might need to rephrase that a bit more clearly. Im more than happy to give you an answer once I know what it is your actually asking me. Im finding that a bit cryptic .


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

Sheffield EDL presence, neglible?


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

T & P said:


> I don't know if it is true or bollocks, but if it is true they don't strike me as a very rational or balanced lot.


 
rational balanced people tend not to take jobs as head hacking mercenaries, id have thought .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> you might need to rephrase that a bit more clearly. Im more than happy to give you an answer once I know what it is your actually asking me. Im finding that a bit cryptic .


 


> well no I dont blame them for you being a wanker for instance, you managed that without help from anyone. Im merely contrasting the great British publics attitude to one bunch of crazed head hackers to another bunch of crazed head hackers . And the issue of hacking soldiers head off in general ..which seems to be perfectly fine behaviour as long as its someone elses soldiers and not their own .


 


> Which it is - creeping up on some enemy in the night/ chopping some blokes head off in the middle of a city.
> 
> But i guess - all is war. Is that what you think? Would like a yes or no answer on that.
> 
> As you put it out here for debate.


----------



## sihhi (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Which it is - creeping up on some enemy in the night/ chopping some blokes head off in the middle of a city. But i guess - all is war. Is that what you think? Would like a yes or no answer on that. As you put it out here for debate.


 
The soldier - off-duty or not - was seen as an enemy to the two Islamists - that, I believe, is CR's point.
Enemies of FCO / MOD policy - as defined by HMG - have also been killed off-duty abroad.
The contrast I think is the difference in popular (or perhaps not so popular) tolerance given/allowed for the two scenarios.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchers ive still no idea bar the fuzziest what it is your actually asking me


----------



## T & P (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> rational balanced people tend not to take jobs as head hacking mercenaries, id have thought .


 Fair point


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The soldier - off-duty or not - was seen as an enemy to the two Islamists - that, I believe, is CR's point.
> Enemies of FCO / MOD policy - as defined by HMG - have also been killed off-duty abroad.
> The contrast I think is the difference in popular (or perhaps not so popular) tolerance given/allowed for the two scenarios.


I get his point - it's facile and not based on any real expectations of combat/war -which is why i was luring him into saying all conditions of war were and are the same. Sometimes best to stand off a bit sihhi. We don't all need things summarised thanks.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> butchers ive still no idea bar the fuzziest what it is your actually asking me


Could be time and a place for the contrast, sorta thing? My dad can make that comment about United Bloody Nations at home, no problem - but he said it once in the middle of Carluccios Canary Wharf and my mum gave him grief for it.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What, us and the media together? Really? It's because he's a tout.


 
It's not an unreasonable comment. The relationship is symbiotic. He gives them what they want. His time is probably as much spent with the media as it is with any other endeavour.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The soldier - off-duty or not - was seen as an enemy to the two Islamists - that, I believe, is CR's point.
> Enemies of FCO / MOD policy - as defined by HMG - have also been killed off-duty abroad.
> The contrast I think is the difference in popular (or perhaps not so popular) tolerance given/allowed for the two scenarios.


 
indeed, and in particular the issue of hacking the enemies head off with a dirty great knife, when thats totally uneccessary in my view no matter who does it. The difference is I think its disgustingly barbaric no matter who does it.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> That's why then. 'Give him enough rope' scenario.



Nah. He's just a renta gob. Entertainment / outrage value. no one seriously gives a fuck what he thinks do they.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> Could be time and a place for the contrast, sorta thing? My dad can make that comment about United Bloody Nations at home, no problem - but he said it once in the middle of Carluccios Canary Wharf and my mum gave him grief for it.


 
well then he might have had a reasonable point that Id be prepared to take on board, if hed made it in a decipherable fashion .


----------



## ibilly99 (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I think a lot of British people are very strange . The fucking gurkhas have been running about hacking soldiers up and cutting soldiers heads off for ages now and theres well supported campaigns to give them British citizenship and the like . Theyre British heroes who have a huge big fuck off hacker knife as an emblem .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...iplined-beheading-Taliban-Thank-God-side.html


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> indeed, and in particular the issue of hacking the enemies head off with a dirty great knife, when thats totally uneccessary in my view no matter who does it. The difference is I think its disgustingly barbaric no matter who does it.


It's a moral thing? Your 'when' suggests otherwise.


----------



## cesare (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> well then he might have had a reasonable point that Id be prepared to take on board, if hed made it in a decipherable fashion .


It may not be what he meant, I was just guessing and probably wrong


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> did they have an anti-muslim appearance?


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> well then he might have had a reasonable point that Id be prepared to take on board, if hed made it in a decipherable fashion .


And of course the equal weight given to each and very case ever  - and the fact that they are all exactly the same - helps lead to this moral sloppiness, this collective failing on the part of 'the brits'.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I like Boya Dee's commentary. Lots of the media are asking him to get in touch. Maybe we'll see him on the news tomorrow.


 
Boya Dee turned down upto £75k from the media! 

https://twitter.com/BOYADEE

I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't have been tempted myself.


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

The kukhri the Ghurki's knife is the default tool for the nepalise hill folk the having to spill blood when they draw it is just one of their little jokes.
  Another one is to sit eating a huge pile of truly evil chillis till a curious squaddie thinks hmm they cant be that bad and tries one Bastards


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

That's strange, he could have split it, help for heroes, etc.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's a moral thing? Your 'when' suggests otherwise.


 
there is absolutely no justification for deliberately mutilating your opponents corpse and chopping his head off . None whatsoever, whether ones a jihadist or a gurkha or Royal marine, or a US Marine . My morals on that issue are quite clear cut . The British medias and indeed the British militarys though seem to enter a bit of a grey area depending on who is doing it to who . Which was the only point I was trying to get accross. With regard to this constant media furore, which is engaged in non stop moralising about it.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> there is absolutely no justification for deliberately mutilating your opponents corpse and chopping his head off . None whatsoever, whether ones a jihadist or a gurkha or Royal marine, or a US Marine . My morals on that issue are quite clear cut . The British medias and indeed the British militarys though seem to enter a bit of a grey area depending on who is doing it to who . Which was the only point I was trying to get accross. And which in the middle of all this constant media furore, which is engaged in non stop moralising about it.


OIK ta, that's clear as crystal. It's just the brits being blind to it that you're on about. Which is a historical story not a moral or national story. Agreed?


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> And of course the equal weight given to each and very case ever - and the fact that they are all exactly the same - helps lead to this moral sloppiness, this collective failing on the part of 'the brits'.


 
not the foggiest what youre on about


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

No the ghurka got disciplined over it


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> OIK ta, that's clear as crystal. It's just the brits being blind to it that you're on about. Which is a historical story not a moral or national story. Agreed?


 
i said, very deliberately, *some* British people were blind to it. And  I thought  I pretty much specified who they were.


----------



## sihhi (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I get his point - it's facile and not based on any real expectations of combat/war -which is why i was luring him into saying all conditions of war were and are the same. Sometimes best to stand off a bit sihhi. We don't all need things summarised thanks.


 
I am sorry. I replied straight to you, wasn't having a go at you for anything.

Just separating out in general the main point (facile or not) from the particular machete/manner of the assassination/execution/killing of the off duty soldier.
The two aspects of it (off duty/away from combat, hideous manner of death) confuse me anyway.  
I know there was a plot in 2007 but _single_ and _exemplary_ execution of someone who isn't on active service (Russian soldier ambushed and kidnapped then mutilated in Chechnya) or especial anti-Islam idolator (Theo van Gogh, Abdi Jeylani Marshali) or as part of a hostage+demands scenario (the Iraq war hostages) is unusual.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

No worries mate. I'm trying to get together a list of failed/convicted stuff - from the 2007 plot to behead a muslim soldier in this country might be an interesting start point.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> which is why i was luring him into saying all conditions of war were and are the same..


 
um..no you werent . You need to seperate the  expectations of your cunning plans from reality . I hadnt a clue what you were on about, and thats the truth . I wasnt being lured anywhere.


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> OIK ta, that's clear as crystal. It's just the brits being blind to it that you're on about. Which is a historical story not a moral or national story. Agreed?


 
With a name like butchersapron you've got a fucking cheek to be asking other people to distinguish their story.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> um..no you werent . You need to seperate the expectations of your cunning plans from reality . I hadnt a clue what you were on about, and thats the truth . I wasnt being lured anywhere.


Yes i was. It didn't work, But i was.


----------



## JimW (May 23, 2013)

Where are we at on this thing about attempting decapitation? Thought latest was that woman who spoke with one saying it hadn't happened.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yes i was. It didn't work, But i was.


 
fair enough, you were and i wasnt. lets leave it at that .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> fair enough, you were and i wasnt. lets leave it at that .


OK. No worries.

I'm not going away you now.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

treelover said:


> That's strange, he could have split it, help for heroes, etc.


 
mebbe hes publicity shy, for some reason .


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

Impressed to see BBC News have given the Woolwich murder it’s own grapics ident. Are Sky the same? 

You know you’ve made an impact when you get one of them. 

Al Qaeda will be pleased. Not as pleased as when HSBC did their money laundering, or when we turned out to be on their side in Syria, but you know – it all counts. 

Wait! Did those events get special news graphics from the media? I don’t think they did. Blimey, you’d almost think the establishment wanted them forgotten.


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I think a lot of British people are very strange . The fucking gurkhas have been running about hacking soldiers up and cutting soldiers heads off for ages now and theres well supported campaigns to give them British citizenship and the like . Theyre British heroes who have a huge big fuck off hacker knife as an emblem .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
What the fuck are you on? How can you compare soldiers who draw their knives in combat and face armed enemies with barbaric murderers who run over an unarmed 26 year old on a London street in broad daylight. (probably from behind)
Do you think it's funny? something to be mocked at.

The Gurkas in WW2 faced german army units armed to the teeth and still went at them "over rooftops" with their knives drawn. That's called bravery you jerkoff.

Now compare them again with that fucking cunt in London.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Impressed to see BBC News have given the Woolwich murder it’s own grapics ident. Are Sky the same?
> 
> You know you’ve made an impact when you get one of them.
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that this story should not be at the top of the headlines? If you are, on what grounds?

Be normal.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> What the fuck are you on? How can you compare soldiers who draw their knives in combat and face armed enemies with barbaric murderers who run over an unarmed 26 year old on a London street in broad daylight.
> Do you think it's funny? something to be mocked at.
> 
> The Gurkas in WW2 faced german army units armed to the teeth and still went at them "over rooftops" with their kives drawn. That's called bravery you jerkoff.
> ...


 
the ones who wouldnt run away and went at heavily armed police with knives you mean


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Impressed to see BBC News have given the Woolwich murder it’s own grapics ident. Are Sky the same?
> 
> You know you’ve made an impact when you get one of them.
> 
> ...


Shhh, keep it quiet, lest the beasts awake. 2013.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> the ones who wouldnt run away and went at heavily armed police with knives you mean


Not much of a comparison. On what aspects do you think they are similar?


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> the ones who wouldnt run away and went at heavily armed police with knives you mean


 
 So, they are your heroes now? Brave men standing up against the police.

You are an apologist for terrorists. Cunt.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are you suggesting that this story should not be at the top of the headlines? If you are, on what grounds?
> 
> Be normal.



I'm suggesting the press and establishment have very warped priorities and standards on terrorism. As well you can guess.


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

nowe nowe letsbe avenue.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I'm suggesting the press and establishment have very warped priorities and standards on terrorism. As well you can guess.


No, you're suggesting that this story did not and does not deserve to be at he top of the headlines (your media obsession here writ tru). Why not and what does the fact that it is tell you (beyond everyone else being unclean).


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

people chopping up soldiers with knives and not being afraid of someone else shooting them while running at them with a knife. He reckons its bravery when you do it to a german . Something else completely when you do it in London .


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> So, they are your heroes now? Brave men standing up against the police.
> 
> You are an apologist for terrorists. Cunt.


 
no im not, ive made clear I think what was done was disgusting . I just happen to think its disgusting when your mob does it as well . And asked why its brave for your people to do it but disgusting when your enemy does it .

wanker


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> people chopping up soldiers with knives and not being afraid of someone else shooting them while running at them with a knife. He reckons its bravery when you do it to a german . Something else completely when you do it in London .


That trap i was luring you into - you just jumped in and pulled the net around your neck.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> no im not, ive made clear I think what was done was disgusting . I just happen to think its disgusting when your mob does it as well .
> 
> wanker


So who are you catching out here?


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> So, they are your heroes now? .


 
its your fucking government wants to arm them and your calling them my heroes

twat


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That trap i was luring you into - you just jumped in and pulled the net around your neck.


 
oh woe is me..ive fallen into a trap so devious that i dont know what it is..oh my god


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> its your fucking government wants to arm them and your calling them my heroes
> 
> twat


That govt that's not yours.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So who are you catching out here?


 
why do you think im trying to catch anyone out..thats what you spend your time doing . Stop fucking projecting .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> oh woe is me..ive fallen into a trap so devious that i dont know what it is..oh my god


The best sort of trap target.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

indeed...


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> why do you think im trying to catch anyone out..thats what you spend your time doing . Stop fucking projecting .


All war is war - unless there are thing which make it different. Keep up with yourself ffs or i will speed it up. This is your position?


----------



## JHE (May 23, 2013)

I've noticed several times on U75, when Islamonut murderers are being discussed, that people who want (rightly, IMO) to condemn the killers insist (wrongly, IMO) that the killers are cowards.

The murderers are hateful Sharia-mongering shits, but they are not cowards. In fact, they tend to be a very self-sacrificing bunch. They risk their lives - or deliberately throw their lives away - for their cause. They have the courage of their fanaticism, bolstered by their belief that dying in jihad makes them martyrs and so ensures their passage to heaven. Islamoshite fanatics make formidable fighters, as Soviet and later US and other Western soldiers have learnt in Afghanistan. Sadly, there is no shortage of them.

Why do people here insist these ruthless killers are cowards? I guess it's because calling someone a coward is a way of condemning them and calling someone brave sounds like praise. I think it is better to look at the world more clearly and speak more honestly. People with horrible reactionary politics and murderous methods are not necessarily cowards, just as people with progressive ideas are not necessarily brave.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

Cowards for attacking an innocent man who can't fight back?


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> All war is war - unless there are thing which make it different. Keep up with yourself ffs or i will speed it up. This is your position?


 
how clear do i have to make this...jihadists should not be running about hacking soldiers heads off in london or Damascus, British soldiers should not be running about hacking peoples heads off either . Not even nazi heads , or japanese heads, or Malayan communist heads, or Maus Maus heads or Argentinian heads . And not Islamic heads. But the fact is they both do . And to me theres fuck all difference who does it . And what bemuses me is the attempts by various quarters in Britain to occupy the moral high ground when it comes to the entire business of running around chopping your enemies head off like a fucking lunatic .


----------



## JHE (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Cowards for attacking an innocent man who can't fight back?


 
But they expected to die yesterday and were very willing to die (as well as murder).  By chance, they are both alive.  If they survive they will spend decades in prison.  They left home yesterday to kill kuffars and sacrifice their lives.

If they had sneakily murdered and hid, expecting to get away with it, you might have a case for saying they are cowards, but that's not what happened at all.  They nonchalantly waited for armed Plod and their own probable demise.  It seems they hoped to take one or two Plod with them, but they showed absolutely no sign of wanting to escape or survive.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

JHE said:


> But they expected to die yesterday and were very willing to die (as well as murder). By chance, they are both alive. If they survive they will spend decades in prison. They left home yesterday to kill kuffars and sacrifice their lives.
> 
> If they had sneakily murdered and hid, expecting to get away with it, you might have a case for saying they are cowards, but that's not what happened at all. They nonchalantly waited for armed Plod and their own probable demise. It seems they hoped to take one or two Plod with them, but they showed absolutely no sign of wanting to escape or survive.


 
I suppose but what makes them cowardly I guess is the fact that their victim had absolutely no chance of survival.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> how clear do i have to make this...jihadists should not be running about hacking soldiers heads off in london or Damascus, British soldiers should not be running about hacking peoples heads off either . Not even nazi heads , or japanese heads, or Malayan communist heads, or Maus Maus heads or Argentinian heads . And not Islamic heads. But the fact is they both do . And to me theres fuck all difference who does it . And what bemuses me is the attempts by various quarters in Britain to occupy the moral high ground when it comes to the entire business of running around chopping your enemies head off like a fucking lunatic .


No difference. All the same. Until the brits are victims. It shows that your whole ieda is based on some beheadings being better than others - and of course, it's not the beheading that you don't like, it's the reaction of british people around beheadings.


----------



## Athos (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Cowards for attacking an innocent man who can't fight back?


 
Are you suggesting that any combatant who carries the advantage in an asymmetrical conflict is necessarily a coward?


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

JHE said:


> But they expected to die yesterday and were very willing to die (as well as murder). By chance, they are both alive. If they survive they will spend decades in prison. They left home yesterday to kill kuffars and sacrifice their lives.
> 
> If they had sneakily murdered and hid, expecting to get away with it, you might have a case for saying they are cowards, but that's not what happened at all. They nonchalantly waited for armed Plod and their own probable demise. It seems they hoped to take one or two Plod with them, but they showed absolutely no sign of wanting to escape or survive.


 


They drove a vehicle on the pavement at an unsupecting  unarmed man,knocked him over and then they both hacked him to death.Take away the jihadist thing and every newspaper story today would contain the word coward. And they would be right.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Athos said:


> Are you suggesting that any combatant who carries the advantage in an asymmetrical conflict is necessarily a coward?


Are you suggeting this is something really important and worth discussing?


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

Poor muslims couldn't even afford a axe.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Poor muslims couldn't even afford a axe.


 


 Nurse!! He's out of his bed again.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Yeah they were cowards. Pathetic to  not give the other bloke a chance cowards (immediate cowardice) , pathetic cowards who thought their life was more important than anyone elses (philosophical/theological cowardice) - wasting your life ain't brave, it's cowardice (kiddy cowardice).


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No difference. All the same. Until the brits are victims. It shows that your whole ieda is based on some beheadings being better than others - and of course, it's not the beheading that you don't like, it's the reaction of british people around beheadings.


 

no it seriously is the fucking beheadings I dont like, and I take exception to the fact that sections of the British public only seem not to like some of them . How you arrived at such a twisted conclusion from anything Ive said is a fucking mystery .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> no it seriously is the fucking beheadings I dont like, and I take exception to the fact that sections of the British public only seem not to like some of them . How you arrived at such a twisted conclusion from anything Ive said is a fucking mystery .


Where is your anti beheading campaign. Your general horror. No, we find it being a general vice of the brits and a delight for them to ignore it.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Athos said:


> Are you suggesting that any combatant who carries the advantage in an asymmetrical conflict is necessarily a coward?


 
itthere seems to be a lot of it on here . I fucking hate jihadists but I dont regard them as cowards . A failure to jump aboard that one seems to get you labelled and accused of all sorts.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah they were cowards.* Pathetic not give rhe other bloke a chance cowards*, pathetic cowards who thought their life was more important than anyone elses - wasting your life ain't brave, it's cowardice.


 
 i see were your coming from now, they should have challenged him to a duel in order not to be seen as cowards in your eyes .


----------



## Athos (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are you suggeting this is something really important and worth discussing?


 
Not especially, no. But then I don't take 'always being right on the internet' as seriously as you.

I was interested in Frogwoman's idea of cowardice, that's all. Sorry to have derailed the thread from your thrilling cryptic spat with Casually Red.


----------



## kenny g (May 23, 2013)

A shitty way to kill someone.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I suppose but what makes them cowardly I guess is the fact that their victim had absolutely no chance of survival.


 
that certainly doesnt make someone a coward.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2013)

> Ok.. allow me to set you all straight.. after yesterdays horrific brutal murder of our fallen hero Lee Rigby, the individuals you accuse of being part of the English defence league actually aren't ANY part of EDL. my partner is in the forces they're good friends of mine,& they went with all intentions of it being a peacful protest & it was on thier part..Several of them got verbally attacked by UFA brandishing & waving Afghani flags & being allowed to do so by the police..my friends who WAS being peaceful, go sent away & told to put thier st George cross flag away .. PC Crowd gone mad.. I'm proud of all of them for ( however small) they made a stand & stood up for our lads & lasses in our armed forces!!! They didn't use violence so what's the problem? Min


 

looks like some tension in Sheff, though still confusing what happened, surprised national media hasn't picked up on it.

ah Look North are saying it was EDL


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i see were your coming from now, they should have challenged him to a duel in order not to be seen as cowards in your eyes .


 
No, they should have just killed themselves and got their miserable existances over with and done everyone else a favour.

Your stance is ultra leftist, you come across like a hipocrite. We can't mourn or feel angered about this violent act because there are other acts, miles away, that we don't react the same to because we don't fucking see them. You are abstract.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

kenny g said:


> A shitty way to kill someone.


 


Yeah,so much shittier than the nice ways.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

kenny g said:


> A shitty way to kill someone.


 
I agree. Absolutely nobody deserves to die like that .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Athos said:


> Not especially, no. But then I don't take 'always being right on the internet' as seriously as you.
> 
> I was interested in Frogwoman's idea of courage, that's all. Sorry to have derailed the thread from your thrilling cryptic spat with Casually Red.


 
You didn't sound interested, you sounded dismissive.

Don't be bruised though - that is actually a great idea for a thread.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> that certainly doesnt make someone a coward.


 

of course it does.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

If they've been brainwashed enough to carry out a suicide attack, which this was, perhaps they sincerely believe the 72 virgins in paradise bollocks. So perhaps choosing death doesn't require so much courage? I dunno, being an atheist I find it hard to see mortality and the afterlife from a god-botherer's POV.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> If they've been brainwashed enough to carry out a suicide attack, which this was, perhaps they sincerely believe the 72 virgins in paradise bollocks. So perhaps choosing death doesn't require so much courage? I dunno, being an atheist I find it hard to see mortality and the afterlife from a god-botherer's POV.


I'm not sure anyone isn't saying they weren't muslims and radically driven muslims with their own muislim derived agenda.


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2013)

There scum  mothing brave about them hope they like prison food they will never get put especially as jihadist nonsense has no end state


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> Your stance is ultra leftist, you come across like a hipocrite. We can't mourn or feel angered about this violent act because there are other acts, miles away, that we don't react the same to because we don't fucking see them. You are abstract.


 
bollocks, im certainly not an ultra leftist and absolutely nowhere have I even suggested you shouldnt feel angry or mourn over it . Thatd be inhuman . Nobody deserves that kind of death .


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

I'm trying to examine the point about courage and cowardice.


----------



## Athos (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You didn't sound interested, you sounded dismissive.
> 
> Don't be bruised though - that is actually a great idea for a thread.


 
I wasn't at all dismissive; I was asking a genuine question. Maybe you're projecting again.

And (with due credit Longfellow) your hard words would only bruise the heart of a child.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

likesfish said:


> There scum mothing brave about them hope they like prison food they will never get put especially as jihadist nonsense has no end state


Just like,them paki taxis drivers


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Athos said:


> I wasn't at all dismissive; i was asking a genuine question. Maybe you're projecting again.
> 
> And (with due credit Longfellow) your hard words would only bruise the heart of a child.


Show me that child. And its cleaner.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> of course it does.


 
nope, a coward is someone who is too afraid to carry out an act for which they would then almost certainly face serious and possibly fatal consequences. While almost everything else thats been said about them is correct cowardice isnt . Thats not any kind of tribute to them . Thats not to say they have some sort of virtuous bravery . They were fanatics who expected to die, not cowards .


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> If they've been brainwashed enough to carry out a suicide attack, which this was, perhaps they sincerely believe the 72 virgins in paradise bollocks. So perhaps choosing death doesn't require so much courage? I dunno, being an atheist I find it hard to see mortality and the afterlife from a god-botherer's POV.


 
Maybe they got tired of seeing people like themselves being murdered by the ruling classes, and decided to choose their own fate.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

Athos i guess theyre cowards because they're attacking someone who cant fight back, it's not a fair fight. And then they're saying it is because of religion, when they know full well the majority of muslims don't support what they're doing.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Where is your anti beheading campaign.


----------



## IC3D (May 23, 2013)

Well my ingrained British attitude to beheading has really been turned on its head by Casually Red


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Just like,them paki taxis drivers


 


Fuck???


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> nope, a coward is someone who is too afraid to carry out an act for which they would then almost certainly face serious and possibly fatal consequences. While almost everything else thats been said about them is correct cowardice isnt . Thats not any kind of tribute to them . Thats not to say they have some sort of virtuous bravery . They were fanatics who expected to die, not cowards .


That's why they were cowards. There was no sense of chance. Nothing, They were just going to walk all over over people to be brave you need to recognise something to  be brave about. In the absence of that, they were and are cowards.


----------



## savoloysam (May 23, 2013)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...iled-for-stabbing-10-year-old-Afghan-boy.html

Where's the media and public outrage about this then?

Oh he's just a 10 year old dust dweller, he was no "hero"


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's why they were cowards. There was no sense of chance. Nothing, They were just going to walk all over over people to be brave you need to recognise something to be brave about. In the absence of that, they were and are cowards.


 

good man


----------



## kenny g (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> Yeah,so much shittier than the nice ways.


 
Yes. I note your irony but being given no chance of defence or escape of a brutal ending is shit. I would far prefer to die fighting than being slaughtered.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> Maybe they got tired of seeing people like themselves being murdered by the ruling classes, and decided to choose their own fate.


Dockerslads supports the islamic war, what grounds are you dying on?


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> nope, a coward is someone who is too afraid to carry out an act for which they would then almost certainly face serious and possibly fatal consequences. While almost everything else thats been said about them is correct cowardice isnt . Thats not any kind of tribute to them . Thats not to say they have some sort of virtuous bravery . They were fanatics who expected to die, not cowards .


 


 Well obviously they were too afraid to carry out an act for which they would then almost certainly face serious ans possibly fatal consequences. Thats why they smashed him up in the air with a car and then attacked him once he was  totally incapacitated.Death to a jihadist is not anything to fear.Attacking a man on the same level obviously is.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Yes. I note your irony but being given no chance of defence or escape of a brutal ending is shit. I would far prefer to die fighting than being slaughtered.


 

 Sorry, you may be right.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> Fuck???


 
i think it is a dig at likesfish's obsession with muslim taxi drivers lol


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i think it is a dig at likesfish's obsession with muslim taxi drivers lol


 


 Oh. k.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Yes. I note your irony but being given no chance of defence or escape of a brutal ending is shit. I would far prefer to die fighting than being slaughtered.


 
if you as a soldier were out to eliminate a target why on earth would you give that target an opportunity to either attack you or escape . I really dont understand this aspect of it . I do understand the anger and all the rest, just not this bit .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i think it is a dig at likesfish's obsession with muslim taxi drivers lol


Obsession? He said each and every asian taxi driver in the country was a legitimate target and should be attacked after something happened. Skin deep.


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 23, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...iled-for-stabbing-10-year-old-Afghan-boy.html
> 
> Where's the media and public outrage about this then?
> 
> Oh he's just a 10 year old dust dweller, he was no "hero"


 

Where's the outrage eh, eh?

Of course people are appalled. Was he or was he not arrested by other army personell?

The 18 month sentence is another thing, though.

On a perception scale you've got to admit that things that happen closer to home are felt far more strongly by people because it is basically "closer to home". It gets tiresome seeing these comparisons all the time. It just doesn't work that way. What do they justify? That we are all hipocrites for not reacting the same to something that happens thousands of miles away?

It's basic common sense. If a house burns down a million miles away it doesn't effect you. If your neighbours house goes up, you notice it.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Obsession? He said each and every asian taxi driver in the country was a legitimate target and should be attacked after something happened. Skin deep.


 
I didn't see that  but I knew he'd said some dodgy shit about them before.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> if you as a soldier were out to eliminate a target why on earth would you give that target an opportunity to either attack you or escape . I really dont understand this aspect of it . I do understand the anger and all the rest, just not this bit .


You're not a soldier.  These people were not soldiers.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2013)

savoloysam said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...iled-for-stabbing-10-year-old-Afghan-boy.html
> 
> Where's the media and public outrage about this then?
> 
> Oh he's just a 10 year old dust dweller, he was no "hero"



Posts like this just about avoid any issue about the woolwich incident which in turn makes any meaningful discussion by the vast majority of people horrified and fearful about that incident extremely difficult.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> if you as a soldier were out to eliminate a target why on earth would you give that target an opportunity to either attack you or escape . I really dont understand this aspect of it . I do understand the anger and all the rest, just not this bit .


 

They're not soldiers any more than i am.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Obsession? He said each and every asian taxi driver in the country was a legitimate target and should be attacked after something happened. Skin deep.


 


 Fucking hell.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> Well obviously they were too afraid to carry out an act for which they would then almost certainly face serious ans possibly fatal consequences. Thats why they smashed him up in the air with a car and then attacked him once he was totally incapacitated.Death to a jihadist is not anything to fear.Attacking a man on the same level obviously is.


 
thats why we have so many muslims just jumping off buildings , bridgesetc, cos theyre just not afraid of dying and just dont care .

what if theyd got an apache helicopter and dropped a missile on him from 5 miles away, that he never saw or heard coming . Would that make them cowards too ?


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

To be brave entails a risk. To you and to the people the family behind you. To make yourself a zombie is not brave. It is the most public cowardice abailible.


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> if you as a soldier were out to eliminate a target why on earth would you give that target an opportunity to either attack you or escape . I really dont understand this aspect of it . I do understand the anger and all the rest, just not this bit .


 
Here you are implying that the terrorist was somehow a soldier. Maybe you don't even realise you are saying it, but you are. Ultra leftist!


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> thats why we have so many muslims just jumping off buildings , bridgesetc, cos theyre just not afraid of dying and just dont care .
> 
> what if theyd got an apache helicopter and dropped a missile on him from 5 miles away, that he never saw or heard coming . Would that make them cowards too ?


Why would that change anything?


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> They're not soldiers any more than i am.


 
ok, if you were an insurgent deep deep behind enemy lines. Would you give your target the chance to get close to you and do you harm, or the chance to escape and identify you later . Just to be sporting .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> ok, if you were an insurgent deep deep behind enemy lines. Would you give your target the chance to get close to you and do you harm, or the chance to escape and identify you later . Just to be sporting .


If you ain't?


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> ok, if you were an insurgent deep deep behind enemy lines. Would you give your target the chance to get close to you and do you harm, or the chance to escape and identify you later . Just to be sporting .


Then i chased the ustaha right out. What's for breakfast mum!?


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> thats why we have so many muslims just jumping off buildings , bridgesetc, cos theyre just not afraid of dying and just dont care .
> 
> what if theyd got an apache helicopter and dropped a missile on him from 5 miles away, that he never saw or heard coming . Would that make them cowards too ?


 


This is not what happened.Two cowardly fucking savages tried to decapitate an unarmed,totally unaware man in woolwich.After they smashed him up in the air with a car. Thats what happened.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> Here you are implying that the terrorist was somehow a soldier. Maybe you don't even realise you are saying it, but you are. Ultra leftist!


 
no i wasnt . I was asking him why a soldier would allow an enemy the chance to do him harm if he could surprise him instead and ensure he wasnt harmed.


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Dockerslads supports the islamic war, what grounds are you dying on?


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> If you ain't?


 


 Insurg





Casually Red said:


> ok, if you were an insurgent deep deep behind enemy lines. Would you give your target the chance to get close to you and do you harm, or the chance to escape and identify you later . Just to be sporting .


 
 Insurgents? Deep, deep,behind enemy lines?
This was fucking Woolwich.


----------



## agricola (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> This is not what happened.Two cowardly fucking savages tried to decapitate an unarmed,totally unaware man in woolwich.After they smashed him up in the air with a car. Thats what happened.


 
You forgot "_and then got shot up, by a woman_".


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

It seems the red wine has taken its toll on my typing skills, so i bid you all good evening.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

JHE said:


> I've noticed several times on U75, when Islamonut murderers are being discussed, that people who want (rightly, IMO) to condemn the killers insist (wrongly, IMO) that the killers are cowards.
> 
> The murderers are hateful Sharia-mongering shits, but they are not cowards. In fact, they tend to be a very self-sacrificing bunch. They risk their lives - or deliberately throw their lives away - for their cause. They have the courage of their fanaticism, bolstered by their belief that dying in jihad makes them martyrs and so ensures their passage to heaven. Islamoshite fanatics make formidable fighters, as Soviet and later US and other Western soldiers have learnt in Afghanistan. Sadly, there is no shortage of them.
> 
> Why do people here insist these ruthless killers are cowards? I guess it's because calling someone a coward is a way of condemning them and calling someone brave sounds like praise. I think it is better to look at the world more clearly and speak more honestly. People with horrible reactionary politics and murderous methods are not necessarily cowards, just as people with progressive ideas are not necessarily brave.


 

spot on


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> This is not what happened.Two cowardly fucking savages tried to decapitate an unarmed,totally unaware man in woolwich.After they smashed him up in the air with a car. Thats what happened.


 
Disgusting. Everyone knows you can get a battery powered chainsaw in B&Q for peanuts these days.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Cowards for attacking an innocent man who can't fight back?


 
How anyone can call a member of the British armed forces 'innocent' is quite unbelievable. Look at the victims cv -""An experienced and talented side drummer and machine gunner, he was a true warrior and served with distinction in Afghanistan, Germany and Cyprus," said his commanding officer Lt Col Jim Taylor."

I am not condoning what happened to him. But anyone who is in the armed forces for 7 years is not the same as a civilian.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 23, 2013)

These two weren't 'formidable fighters'. Having decided to throw their lives away, this was the best they could do?


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 23, 2013)

As if it weren't tragic enough when their lives are wasted in Afghanistan...The boy was a drummer.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> How anyone can call a member of the British armed forces 'innocent' is quite unbelievable. Look at the victims cv -""An experienced and talented side drummer and machine gunner, he was a true warrior and served with distinction in Afghanistan, Germany and Cyprus," said his commanding officer Lt Col Jim Taylor."
> 
> I am not condoning what happened to him. But anyone who is in the armed forces for 7 years is not the same as a civilian.


 
they didnt know that when they killed him tho did they? and when he was walking around on the street he hadn't done anything _to them_


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

They attacked a defenseless man, but then waited for armed police and ran at them with knives. How can the second part not be brave? That's the question we keep ducking. Never mind, bed time.


----------



## JHE (May 23, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> As if it weren't tragic enough when their lives are wasted in Afghanistan...The boy was a drummer.


 
Music is haram.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> They attacked a defenseless man, but then waited for armed police and ran at them with knives. How can the second part not be brave? That's the question we keep ducking. Never mind, bed time.


I don't think it's an important question, though, tbh. If you've decided to kill yourself, is the final jump off the stool brave? I guess so in some ways, but not necessarily in others.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> They attacked a defenseless man, but then waited for armed police and ran at them with knives. How can the second part not be brave? That's the question we keep ducking. Never mind, bed time.


Ducking? We just did that. Ducking? Whats been ducked exactly? Why?


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

JHE said:


> Music is haram.


 
to islamist fanatics yes, not to the majority of muslims though.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> Insurg
> 
> Insurgents? Deep, deep,behind enemy lines?
> This was fucking Woolwich.


 
and what ? whys woolwich immune from political violence and half the bloody world not immune from the violence of the inhabitants of woolwich barracks and their associates .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> and what ? whys woolwich immune from political violence and half the bloody world not immune from the violence of the inhabitants of woolwich barracks and their associates .


Explain in simple terms why your comrades reacted as they did.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> they didnt know that when they killed him tho did they? and when he was walking around on the street he hadn't done anything _to them_


 
Some of the soldiers the IRA blew up didn't do anything to _them. _Same thing.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Some of the soldiers the IRA blew up didn't do anything to _them. _Same thing.


What's the thing manny and whose thing is it?


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Some of the soldiers the IRA blew up didn't do anything to _them. _Same thing.


 
I dont think this is the same thing as the IRA at all tbh. The IRA have/had popular support, I don't think these people are representing anyone except a very very small minority of people.

Theres loads of stuff that comes with western Islamism that didn't come with irish republicanism.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What's the thing manny and whose thing is it?


 
Killings of military involved in imperialist conflicts.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> They attacked a defenseless man, but then waited for armed police and ran at them with knives. How can the second part not be brave? That's the question we keep ducking. Never mind, bed time.


 


I think i just heard my alarm call.
As i've already said,death is nothing to fear for a jihadist   67 virgins an' all that(personally i'm with Billy Connelly on this. I,d much rather have 67 fucking sluts waiting in heaven for me.)


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Some of the soldiers the IRA blew up didn't do anything to _them. _Same thing.


 
those guys in Hyde park and Deal certainly didnt . Unless they annoyed them with a trumpet . On the telly.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I dont think this is the same thing as the IRA at all tbh. The IRA have/had popular support, I don't think these people are representing anyone except a very very small minority of people.


 
Why not? Both had political goals. Both have been done as revenge to British military policy.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

British army is a volunteer army and anyone signing up in the last few years knew they would serve a tour or two in Afghanistan or Iraq. So it's entirely logical for a jihadist to see them all as willing killers of muslims.  It doesn't suit them to differentiate between infantry, bandsmen, cooks, medics, chaplains etc etc


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Killings of military involved in imperialist conflicts.


Not the war, just the killings -  think now...


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Explain in simple terms why your comrades reacted as they did.


 
what comrades are those

and what is it you think they were reacting to


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Why not? Both had political goals. Both have been done as revenge to British military policy.


 
I don't think this is just about imperialism. And I also don't think attacking coalition forces in Iraq etc or doing what the IRA did or what palestinian etc armed groups do is the same as what these cunts did.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with what these groups did btw I'm just saying it's completely different to kill someone who's not directly involved in fighting you, in your own back yard, far away from where the wars are going on. One can legitimately be seen as part of a war as much as you or i might disagree with it. and the other .. well ...


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> How anyone can call a member of the British armed forces 'innocent' is quite unbelievable. Look at the victims cv -""An experienced and talented side drummer and machine gunner, he was a true warrior and served with distinction in Afghanistan, Germany and Cyprus," said his commanding officer Lt Col Jim Taylor."
> 
> I am not condoning what happened to him. But anyone who is in the armed forces for 7 years is not the same as a civilian.



Not sure what your point is? Civilians aren't legit targets but he was? Not the same a a civilian so that doesn't make it that bad? Open up the second front?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No, you're suggesting that this story did not and does not deserve to be at he top of the headlines (your media obsession here writ tru). Why not and what does the fact that it is tell you (beyond everyone else being unclean).


 
Where did I suggest that? You suggesting someone suggested something and the actual occurence can be complete coincidence. You make stuff up. Very often. Fuck knows why.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Not sure what your point is? Civilians aren't legit targets but he was? Not the same a a civilian so that doesn't make it that bad? Open up the second front?


 
Yeah he is a legit target. He is British Army. Butchering people in Afghanistan and elsewhere, they have a record of butchering going back hundreds of years.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2013)

So not condoning what happened to him but he was a legitimate target?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I don't think this is just about imperialism. And I also don't think attacking coalition forces in Iraq etc or doing what the IRA did or what palestinian etc armed groups do is the same as what these cunts did.
> 
> I'm not necessarily agreeing with what these groups did btw I'm just saying it's completely different to kill someone who's not directly involved in fighting you, in your own back yard, far away from where the wars are going on. One can legitimately be seen as part of a war as much as you or i might disagree with it. and the other .. well ...


From what they said, they certainly thought British soldiers were directly involved in fighting them. They saw themselves as part of a 'them' that war is being waged against. And they were very specific about who they wanted to kill, weren't they? Showed no sign of wanting to go after anyone random.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

Also I don't think that irish republicanism can remotely be compared to islamism of the type these guys believe in, I'm not convinced that their only goal is to get everyone out of "muslim lands" or end an occupation, I think they also have a religious agenda and they use the real world stuff as a means to encourage people to buy in to that agenda.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> what comrades are those
> 
> and what is it you think they were reacting to


To your post that again flattens all beheadings to being equal. And that all political violence is free of. Why did your comrades not do as they did if all horror is equal?


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Yeah he is a legit target. He is British Army. Butchering people in Afghanistan and elsewhere, they have a record of butchering going back hundreds of years.



So why aren't you involved in attacking these legit targets yourself or is it best led to others?


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> British army is a volunteer army and anyone signing up in the last few years knew they would serve a tour or two in Afghanistan or Iraq. So it's entirely logical for a jihadist to see them all as willing killers of muslims. It doesn't suit them to differentiate between infantry, bandsmen, cooks, medics, chaplains etc etc


 


And no doubt they didnt think that John Wilson street,Woolwich was deep,deep behind enemy lines either.Looks like the rules have changed. Lets not hear you bleating  "they're civillians"when a jihadist gets shot by the  security forces in britain.As i said ,the rules have changed.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> From what they said, they certainly thought British soldiers were directly involved in fighting them. They saw themselves as part of a 'them' that war is being waged against. And they were very specific about who they wanted to kill, weren't they? Showed no sign of wanting to go after anyone random.


 
Yeah I know. I'm not saying that it didn't motivate them at all but what I'm saying is that it wasn't _just_ that.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I'm trying to examine the point about courage and cowardice.


Why. Where does it get us in considering what's happened here. Other than drawing an empty moral equivalence between individuals supposed sense of personal courage.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Where did I suggest that? You suggesting someone suggested something and the actual occurence can be complete coincidence. You make stuff up. Very often. Fuck knows why.


In your feverish anti-media posts. What would you have at the top - mung bean salad off while some polish girl gets it out a bucket.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> So not condoning what happened to him but he was a legitimate target?


 
Precisely. I don't agree with what they done. But I am not going to lose sleep over it. If you are in the military- you have signed up to kill people on behalf of the rich. I'm poor and from a working class background but I have never wanted to join the forces to go brutalise folk in different lands.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> British army is a volunteer army and anyone signing up in the last few years knew they would serve a tour or two in Afghanistan or Iraq. So it's entirely logical for a jihadist to see them all as willing killers of muslims. It doesn't suit them to differentiate between infantry, bandsmen, cooks, medics, chaplains etc etc


 
half the cunts on this site have been cheering on exactly the same sort of cunt doing exactly the same thing to Libyan and Syrian conscripts . While the other half have been wishing identical plagues on both houses . Now it happens in their backyard the humanity bursts forth all of a sudden and they go bananas your not queuing up trying to get into a Simon Cowell charity line up to sing a hymn for humanity. And questioning your humanity for having the temerity to point out you dont feel like joining in with the shock horror jamboree .


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> And no doubt they didnt think that John Wilson street,Woolwich was deep,deep behind enemy lines either.Looks like the rules have changed. Lets not hear you bleating "they're civillians"when a jihadist gets shot by the security forces in britain.As i said ,the rules have changed.


Is that right nigel.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> half the cunts on this site have been cheering on exactly the same sort of cunt doing exactly the same thing to Libyan and Syrian conscripts . While the other half have been wishing identical plagues on both houses . Now it happens in their backyard the humanity bursts forth all of a sudden and they go bananas your not queuing up trying to get into a Simon Cowell charity line up to sing a hymn for humanity. And questioning your humanity for having the temerity to point out you dont feel like joining in with the shock horror jamboree .


Which half doing that did you go for btw?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> And no doubt they didnt think that John Wilson street,Woolwich was deep,deep behind enemy lines either.Looks like the rules have changed. Lets not hear you bleating "they're civillians"when a jihadist gets shot by the security forces in britain.As i said ,the rules have changed.


Let's hope not. Labour have already called for a rescussitating of the snooper's charter in light of this. Looks like these two were acting alone and with no training.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Also I don't think that irish republicanism can remotely be compared to islamism of the type these guys believe in, I'm not convinced that their only goal is to get everyone out of "muslim lands" or end an occupation, I think they also have a religious agenda and they use the real world stuff as a means to encourage people to buy in to that agenda.


 
I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.


----------



## Frumious B. (May 23, 2013)

xenon said:


> Why. Where does it get us in considering what's happened here. Other than drawing an empty moral equivalence between individuals supposed sense of personal courage.


 
Doesn't get us anywhere, I was just responding to people accusing the killers of cowardice. But it's not a point worth much consideration.


----------



## telbert (May 23, 2013)

And on that note, it really is goodnight.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Precisely. I don't agree with what they done. But I am not going to lose sleep over it. If you are in the military- you have signed up to kill people on behalf of the rich. I'm poor and from a working class background but I have never wanted to join the forces to go brutalise folk in different lands.



 Legit target but you don't agree that he shouldn't have been run over and stabbed to death? Why not if he was a legit target? Or have you got other suggestions as to how legit targets can be dealt with?


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> To your post that again flattens all beheadings to being equal. And that all political violence is free of. Why did your comrades not do as they did if all horror is equal?


 
what the fuck are you on about, what is political violence free of ?


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.


 
It's political injustice that makes some people go and be zionist settlers in the west bank. It doesnt excuse it, you see exactly the same sort of "justifications" be used. A war against our people, look what's happening in europe, look what's happening here there and everywhere we've all got to stand together and fight etc. They use real world shit to excuse what they do and encourage people to join them and justify whatever murderous actions they take the same as these cunts do.

You might have good intentions at the start but how long in a milieu that only see's political injustice against one race or religion and stretches the definition of it to include "immorality" and a decadent culture and all that shit before you start to carry on that same shit yourself.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> It's political injustice that makes some people go and be zionist settlers in the west bank. It doesnt excuse it, you see exactly the same sort of "justifications" be used. A war against our people, look what's happening in europe, look what's happening here there and everywhere we've all got to stand together and fight etc. They use real world shit to excuse what they do and encourage people to join them and justify whatever murderous actions they take the same as these cunts do.
> 
> You might have good intentions at the start but how long in a milieu that only see's political injustice against one race or religion and stretches the definition of it to include "immorality" and a decadent culture and all that shit before you start to carry on that same shit yourself.


 
You were saying it was ok to kill british soldiers in afghanistan? So if they had taken a flight over to kabul, found a british soldier and done the same thing over there it would be ok? But not in your backyard?


----------



## coley (May 23, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> how clear do i have to make this...jihadists should not be running about hacking soldiers heads off in london or Damascus, British soldiers should not be running about hacking peoples heads off either . Not even nazi heads , or japanese heads, or Malayan communist heads, or Maus Maus heads or Argentinian heads . And not Islamic heads. But the fact is they both do . And to me theres fuck all difference who does it . And what bemuses me is the attempts by various quarters in Britain to occupy the moral high ground when it comes to the entire business of running around chopping your enemies head off like a fucking lunatic .



What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another, I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
Your armchair support  and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2013)

telbert said:


> I think i just heard my alarm call.
> As i've already said,death is nothing to fear for a jihadist   67 virgins an' all that(personally i'm with Billy Connelly on this. I,d much rather have 67 fucking sluts waiting in heaven for me.)



Just 67 now? Times are hard in Jammah I guess.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> You were saying it was ok to kill british soldiers in afghanistan? So if they had taken a flight over to kabul, found a british soldier and done the same thing over there it would be ok? But not in your backyard?


 
I wasn't saying it was OK ffs !! I was saying that afghans fighting the british and these cunts killing a random guy on the street was completely different. And had different motivations behind it. And I think british citizens going to kabul for that would be just as mental.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.



I think you will also find that it is exactly the political injustice of the jihadists that cause others who come from the same background and who also feel political injustice to fight against them. Most jihadists might be 'anti imperialist' but are deeply conservative if not reactionary in their views.


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I wasn't saying it was OK I was saying it was different. And had different motivations behind it.


 
The motivations are exactly the same.


----------



## coley (May 23, 2013)

Athos said:


> Are you suggesting that any combatant who carries the advantage in an asymmetrical conflict is necessarily a coward?


Are you suggesting these two were 'combatants,?


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I think you will also find that it is exactly the political injustice of the jihadists that cause others who come from the same background and who also feel political injustice to fight against them. Most jihadists might be 'anti imperialist' but are deeply conservative if not reactionary in their views.


 
Agreed. Don't get me wrong I hate jihadis.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> I think you will find that it is the political injustice that must of these jihadi folk in the UK join up.


I agree with this. I think we have to believe what the men themselves said about their motivation. But it is possible to deplore what the UK army is doing without in any way supporting this. I have more sympathy for desperate people trapped by the actions of oppressive forces who have few options and see killing an occupying soldier as fighting back. But these two were British. They had options. Their desperation was at best vicarious.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

manny-p said:


> The motivations are exactly the same.


 
I'm really not sure they are but I don't particularly want an argument, got to be up for work by 6


----------



## manny-p (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I'm really not sure they are but I don't particularly want an argument, got to be up for work by 6


 
Okay. Me too. Sweet dreams.


----------



## Casually Red (May 23, 2013)

coley said:


> What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another,
> 
> I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
> Your armchair support and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing
> ...


 
i really hope thats not alzheimers


----------



## thedockerslad (May 23, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Also I don't think that irish republicanism can remotely be compared to islamism of the type these guys believe in, I'm not convinced that their only goal is to get everyone out of "muslim lands" or end an occupation, I think they also have a religious agenda and they use the real world stuff as a means to encourage people to buy in to that agenda.


 
I'm going to disagree with you on this. I think their agenda is to disrupt the ordinary everyday lives of those they see as ignorant to their cause. If you think Catholisism isn't a religious agenda that has caused the same kind of terrible murders of ordinary working class people as Islam I suggest you think again.


----------



## coley (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah they were cowards. Pathetic to  not give the other bloke a chance cowards (immediate cowardice) , pathetic cowards who thought their life was more important than anyone elses (philosophical/theological cowardice) - wasting your life ain't brave, it's cowardice (kiddy cowardice).



Insofar as you are prepared to sacrifice your life for what you believe in? Then no, they are not cowards, and I'm speaking as someone who detests any attempt to justify murder as a legitimate means to achieve an political objective.
There are hundreds of words that can be used to describe their horrific actions, but 'cowards' is not one of them.


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

I just don't like people going around killing people in the name of religion and I think that these guys were doing that, I also think that because they were against imperialism and whatever their other views about how they want society to be are probably getting ignored, and I doubt they were very pleasant.

Like I know lots of people who become zionists are convinced they are doing the right thing and "helping thier people" with what they're doing, even though nobody has really asked for their "help", but lots of them see the whole thing as part of a religious war, and the real world shit the persecution and that that goes on, that they're reacting to, helps them to justify it, it doesn't justify it in moral terms though, but it allows them to get support and feel that they are halfway legitimate. 

I'm sure lots of Christian, Hindu fundamentalists who try to use violence for a religious cause, think they are doing the same thing. the fact they're responding to real world stuff doesn't make it any better, although it helps to explain things, but it doesn't make the rest of what they think and do right does it?


----------



## frogwoman (May 23, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> I'm going to disagree with you on this. I think their agenda is to disrupt the ordinary everyday lives of those they see as ignorant to their cause. If you think Catholisism isn't a religious agenda that has caused the same kind of terrible murders of ordinary working class people as Islam I suggest you think again.


 
im not saying anything to do with islam, im talking about religiously motivated terrorism/violence, not a whole religion

sorry if it wasnt clear


----------



## smokedout (May 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> To be brave entails a risk. To you and to the people the family behind you. To make yourself a zombie is not brave. It is the most public cowardice abailible.


 
hmm, if you view bravery as some kind of philosophical or moral construct perhaps, but if you view bravery as something closer to an emotional state ie, they were shitting themselves but did it anyway then i think they could be called brave, and that bravery isn't always a good thing, which i dont think it is


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with this. I think we have to believe what the men themselves said about their motivation. But it is possible to deplore what the UK army is doing without in any way supporting this. I have more sympathy for desperate people trapped by the actions of oppressive forces who have few options and see killing an occupying soldier as fighting back. But these two were British. They had options. Their desperation was at best vicarious.


 
Id agree completely with that . Just because I dont like the imperialist armies and powers it doesnt equate with supporting these types of headers. And not jumping in with emotional tide surrounding this doesnt equate to any kind of support either.

But Id also refer back to what Ive been saying over the past year or so, about what is likely to happen when British born followers of the head hackers in syria start drifting home with all that experience know how and contacts under their belt.

The UK government and others are very serious about wanting to arm and empower exactly the same sort of headers who did this , and they are exactly the same type of people. And the UK media has been and continues to whip up support for their _noble cause_ . To these guys hacking the head off a British squaddie for the cameras in woolwich and a Syrian squaddie in Aleppo, and eating bits of him for the cameras, is exactly the same cause , exactly the same thing. No difference to them whatsoever . And I know whos side Im on for in Syria and it certainly isnt theirs . Nor is it in woolwich. Difference between me and the twats accusing me of supporting all sorts here is im consistent in opposing them regardless of the geography and regardless of who it is they happen to be chopping up this week as opposed to last week. And next week .

I just dont think their geography has any special immunity from the forces imperialist powers have unleashed on other previously _quiet residential areas_ .


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> As if it weren't tragic enough when their lives are wasted in Afghanistan...The boy was a drummer.


 
I am beginning to feel physically sick thinking what happened to that lad, and yes, I know we are delivering the same 3000 miles away


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> In your feverish anti-media posts. What would you have at the top - mung bean salad off while some polish girl gets it out a bucket.


 
It won't be hard for you to find where I suggested it. Off you go. I am not fussy about the ethnicity of the girl in that circumstance. Do you see that kinky bucket stuff on websites beyond U75? Are you actually allowed outside of here?


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Yeah he is a legit target. He is British Army. Butchering people in Afghanistan and elsewhere, they have a record of butchering going back hundreds of years.


 

save us your faux anti-imperialism, and why not say that to his parents..


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> I'm going to disagree with you on this. I think their agenda is to disrupt the ordinary everyday lives of those they see as ignorant to their cause. If you think Catholisism isn't a religious agenda that has caused the same kind of terrible murders of ordinary working class people as Islam I suggest you think again.


 
republicanism is not catholicism, v poor analogy


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

smokedout said:


> hmm, if you view bravery as some kind of philosophical or moral construct perhaps, but if you view bravery as something closer to an emotional state ie, they were shitting themselves but did it anyway then i think they could be called brave, and that bravery isn't always a good thing, which i dont think it is


I agree. Bravery isn't not being afraid to do something. It's doing something despite being afraid.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another, I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
> Your armchair support and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing.


 
no offence mate but just last week you were cheering on exactly these types of cunts in the syria thread, and wishing for the day they were* decorating the lamp posts of Damascus* with the bodies of their secular opponents. Your words.

youve fairly changed your tune now theyre at it in someone elses quiet residential area


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> As if it weren't tragic enough when their lives are wasted in Afghanistan...The boy was a drummer.


Pay respect, he was a soldier, prepared to die on active service, not murdered in his capital city.


----------



## Ms T (May 24, 2013)

The Mirror has got hold of video footage of the suspects being shot by police.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-watch-shocking-video-1907772


----------



## weltweit (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree. Bravery isn't not being afraid to do something. It's doing something despite being afraid.


Indeed, the cub scout leader, Ingrid, was certainly brave..


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, but also Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Pay respect, he was a soldier, prepared to die on active service, not murdered in his capital city.


Demanding that others pay respect to him for being a soldier is a political position, though. I won't use that language. I feel very sorry for him and his family, but I don't see that his position as a soldier _demands_ my respect.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.


 
whatever the case its quite likely these guys used those types of videos as a means of building up the mental capacity to carry the attack out .


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.


Because I'm a twat, I watched a beheading video once, many years ago. I really wish I hadn't. This was probably about ten years ago. It might just be timing - quite a few twats like me were watching them at the time.

I still feel like a twat for admitting this even now. I wasn't a teenager. But I would hope that most people watching them would react like I did - with deeply felt revulsion.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 24, 2013)

Ms T said:


> The Mirror has got hold of video footage of the suspects being shot by police.
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-watch-shocking-video-1907772


 
Wow.   They were totally non-aggressive to all the civilians, the different videos seem to suggest.


----------



## thedockerslad (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> whatever the case its quite likely these guys used those types of videos as a means of building up the mental capacity to carry the attack out .


 
Evidence or STFU


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> From what they said, they certainly thought British soldiers were directly involved in fighting them. They saw themselves as part of a 'them' that war is being waged against. And they were very specific about who they wanted to kill, weren't they? Showed no sign of wanting to go after anyone random.


 
the zionists would like to involve me to join them in their "war" against "injustice".i don't see the world as being at war against me though i see a handful of cunts and the majority of people as being very decent.

i see zionism and Islamism as being very similar, both motivated and fuelled by real world violence and discrimination which helps them maintain a support base among the desperate and marginalised (and i don't just mean in financial etc terms, i also mean in terms of feeling disengaged from society), and of course the feeling of being alienated in western society. when i was growing up some of my mates were thinking of signing up to the IDF and going to Israel because they were angry about what was going on around the world and also their lifes were shit, thank fuck they have realised their mistakes now, but i think a similar feeling must motivate a lot of people that become islamists.like a disengagement from social norms and a feeling (for whatever reason) that you're not part of society, and of course this stuff for someone who's lived all their life in the west is fuelled by reading about things on the news and buying into this whole ideology, which gives you an answer to why things are so shit and a cause to believe in

both are extremely reactionary ideologies and both are being used for the purposes of justifying killing innocent people by the use of the concept of a "religious war" as well as repression of minorities etc and the repression of anything thats remotely leftist or secular. anyone who talks about class as opposed to religious/nationalist bollocks is a traitor and they can do what they like with them.

im not saying i dont understand what attracts people to it but i think allowing people a free pass because of western imperialism or whatever (im not saying anyones doing that) and seeking to explain someone choosing to carry out a terrorist attack in quite simplistic terms like that, is not always helpful.
like how do you even get to the point where this stuff is even considered legitimate, let alone think you should do it, that's what i want to know.

i hope im not talking bollocks btw


----------



## DexterTCN (May 24, 2013)

Ms T said:


> The Mirror has got hold of video footage of the suspects being shot by police.
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-watch-shocking-video-1907772


 



> It is likely the marksmen were using newly introduced hollow-point bullets which flatten on impact for more stopping power.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> like how do you even get to the point where this stuff is even considered legitimate, let alone think you should do it, that's what i want to know.


Yep. This is the bit that mystifies me, too. These two weren't just produced by Islamism. They were also produced by, and entirely alienated from, British society.

ETA: As well as their victim's parents, I feel very sorry for their parents too.


----------



## silverfish (May 24, 2013)

Gotta say after seeing the footage from the daily mirror of the police shooting and the speed the attackers go for the coppers I've got a renewed respect for their skill and quick thinking

The first guy was shot by a copper still in the car through a window, split second decision making that saved his unarmed colleagues ( the ARV drivers)  life

They weren't sat staring at the attackers, aware of the situation, they drove right in to it and it kicked of immediately

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-watch-shocking-video-1907772


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

Apparently Tommy Robinson will have a BBC film crew with him on Saturday in Newcastle for a Doc that will screen in the summer


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. This is the bit that mystifies me, too. These two weren't just produced by Islamism. They were also produced by, and entirely alienated from, British society.


 
yeah
it scares me because there was a brief period in my life where i was thinking along slightly similar lines because of things I was reading on the internet/people i was speaking too online etc (and also being very isolated socially for a lot of reasons), it didn't last long but it scares the shit out of me.

it's one thing to think about all of this stuff though but to actually do it? how the fuck. just how


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. This is the bit that mystifies me, too. These two weren't just produced by Islamism. They were also produced by, and entirely alienated from, British society.


 
dude..for the past 2 years your government has been paying these cunts millions  to do exactly the same thing in syria and champing at the bit to give them guns and send in the bombers, before that it was libya, before that it was Yugoslavia, before that it was Afghanistan . All cheered on as heroic freedom fighting ..then its barbaric terrorism for bit..then its heroic freedom fighting again .

and you seriously wonder why this happens in your country


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Because I'm a twat, I watched a beheading video once, many years ago. I really wish I hadn't. This was probably about ten years ago. It might just be timing - quite a few twats like me were watching them at the time.
> 
> I still feel like a twat for admitting this even now. I wasn't a teenager. But I would hope that most people watching them would react like I did - with deeply felt revulsion.


 
There's a bit of a craze for 'gore' on the net these days I'm reliably informed. Beheadings, all kinds of sick stuff - one in particular that was taken by a gang of (I think Russian) serial killers who beat their victims to death with a hammer - and it took a long time too - I've not watched it but I know a couple of people who have, through peer pressure. It's most certainly not just jihadis, or refugees, that look at this kind of shit. Spend a bit of time on 4chan if you don't believe me. Seems like it's something people do partly out of curiosity (like your beheading I would guess) and partly to prove to their peers that they can 'handle' it.

The people I know who've watched these things certainly aren't in danger of ever doing it themselves and I imagine that's the case with the vast majority of people who watch them - in fact being disturbed by them seems to be kind of part of the attraction - that it's something you're disgusted by and would never condone but you can 'handle' watching it anyway.

Of course it's also the kind of thing people who _are _for whatever reason tempted to carry these kinds of things out would watch. And it can't be good for your mental state to be watching this kind of stuff. But it would be a big mistake to assume that the vast majority of people who've watched them are any more likely than you or I to do anything like that. This is the case regardless of whether they were born in this country or entered as refugees or immigrants IMO.

As you seem to be implying, very easy to read way way too much into it. Fucking disturbing that anyone wants to watch this kind of stuff beyond maybe once out of curiosity if you ask me though, regardless of whether they're going to do a bit of the old copycat.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> Apparently Tommy Robinson will have a BBC film crew with him on Saturday in Newcastle for a Doc that will screen in the summer


 
BBC rewarding terrorism. Why can't they follow an urbanite around? Not long enough criminal records? Don't find the Oslo massacre funny enough? not enough incitement on the site?

Fucking disgusting. 

eta: assuming "apparently" claim is true.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

Polish far right endorsing the EDL on FB and its reciprocal, its a love in...

quoting the battle at the gates of Vienna.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

That's not really true, cr. There is plenty of opposition to the wars, even from 'small c' conservatives like my parents.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> There's a bit of a craze for 'gore' on the net these days I'm reliably informed. Beheadings, all kinds of sick stuff - one in particular that was taken by a gang of (I think Russian) serial killers who beat their victims to death with a hammer - and it took a long time too - I've not watched it but I know a couple of people who have, through peer pressure. It's most certainly not just jihadis, or refugees, that look at this kind of shit. Spend a bit of time on 4chan if you don't believe me. Seems like it's something people do partly out of curiosity (like your beheading I would guess) and partly to prove to their peers that they can 'handle' it.
> 
> The people I know who've watched these things certainly aren't in danger of ever doing it themselves and I imagine that's the case with the vast majority of people who watch them - in fact being disturbed by them seems to be kind of part of the attraction - that it's something you're disgusted by and would never condone but you can 'handle' watching it anyway.
> 
> ...


 
my experience was ten years ago, when afiak, it wasn't a common thing to do,

of course most people don't watch them, of any ethnicity.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> *I've noticed several times on U75, when Islamonut murderers are being discussed, that people who want (rightly, IMO) to condemn the killers insist (wrongly, IMO) that the killers are cowards.*
> 
> The murderers are hateful Sharia-mongering shits, but they are not cowards. In fact, they tend to be a very self-sacrificing bunch. They risk their lives - or deliberately throw their lives away - for their cause. They have the courage of their fanaticism, bolstered by their belief that dying in jihad makes them martyrs and so ensures their passage to heaven. Islamoshite fanatics make formidable fighters, as Soviet and later US and other Western soldiers have learnt in Afghanistan. Sadly, there is no shortage of them.
> 
> Why do people here insist these ruthless killers are cowards? I guess it's because calling someone a coward is a way of condemning them and calling someone brave sounds like praise. I think it is better to look at the world more clearly and speak more honestly. People with horrible reactionary politics and murderous methods are not necessarily cowards, just as people with progressive ideas are not necessarily brave.


 
That's just down to shit writing skills - "Cowardly thug"/"Cowardly terrorist" - It's just how people with poor descriptive powers describe these things - By resorting to cliche. Nothing deeper than that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> That's just down to shit writing skills - "Cowardly thug"/"Cowardly terrorist" - It's just how people with poor descriptive powers describe these things - By resorting to cliche. Nothing deeper than that.


Bit harsh. But yes, I broadly agree - it's part of the expression of revulsion.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> my experience was ten years ago, when afiak, it wasn't a common thing to do,
> 
> of course most people don't watch them, of any ethnicity.


 
Unfortunately I think it's been a craze for as long as you've been able to host videos on the net. The modern snuff movie innit


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> The people I know who've watched these things certainly aren't in danger of ever doing it themselves and I imagine that's the case with the vast majority of people who watch them - in fact being disturbed by them seems to be kind of part of the attraction - that it's something you're disgusted by and would never condone but you can 'handle' watching it anyway.
> .


I sincerely wish I hadn't. It took a long time to get it out of my head. And it taught me zero about anything (my bollocks self-justification for doing it was that I would learn something) - just made a bad memory.


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> That's just down to shit writing skills - "Cowardly thug"/"Cowardly terrorist" - It's just how people with poor descriptive powers describe these things - By resorting to cliche. Nothing deeper than that.


 
sometimes there's nothing else you can say about it though. sometimes there are no words except cliches.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> sometimes there's nothing else you can say about it though. sometimes there are no words except cliches.


 
Well yes & no - And I'm catching up with this thread - Only up to p47 ATM, so bear with me. I've no real opinion as to whether these fellas were cowards or not - It doesn't fucking matter IMO, they did what they did & what they did has fuck all to do with cowardice or bravery, it was an atrocity. And the fact that similar or worse atrocities are happening elsewhere doesn't make this one any more or less severe.

I've not _really_ got a problem with people describing them as cowardly except, IMO, it misses the point by a country mile.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Demanding that others pay respect to him for being a soldier is a political position, though. I won't use that language. I feel very sorry for him and his family, but I don't see that his position as a soldier _demands_ my respect.


I didn't demand respect, I said pay respect, he was a bloke who was in the service of his country, and was murdered as a result, not killed in action, but murdered, not by armed jihadists/ irregulars/terrorists/insurgents or whatever, in their own country, but by people, who he had a right to feel safe around him.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not really true, cr. There is plenty of opposition to the wars, even from 'small c' conservatives like my parents.


 
im not talking about the british people, im talking about the British government and its media mouthpieces . And Labour have started worse wars than the tories in recent times. For over 2 decades armed radical islam and jihadism was actively sponsored by Britian and to some extent given a safe haven while both were fighting a common enemy, Russia, Yugsoslavia, Gaddaffi .Now its Assad. London was always a favoured destination for their ideologues  for a very long time pre 9 11 .
 The British state has empowered and coddled these people on and off for a very long time, longer than theyve been at odds with each other . And then in the last few years when politics required it they were freedom fighters all over again . Jihadism became acceptable again , a noble profession once more.
When the BBC praises them as freedom fighters for years and the British state pays and arms them in their crusades, and provides them with air cover thats some serious mixed messages to be sending .Because these are the very same people, dont doubt that for a second .


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I sincerely wish I hadn't. It took a long time to get it out of my head. And it taught me zero about anything (my bollocks self-justification for doing it was that I would learn something) - just made a bad memory.


 
At the very least it taught you not  to watch beheading videos!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> I didn't demand respect, I said pay respect, he was a bloke who was in the service of his country, and was murdered as a result, not killed in action, but murdered, not by armed jihadists/ irregulars/terrorists/insurgents or whatever, in their own country, but by people, who he had a right to feel safe around him.


You demanded that people 'pay respect'. As for 'in service of his country', well yes, that is how many people view it. Kurt Vonnegut's last book was called 'A man without a country'. He was very clear about why he now felt he had no country - because of what his country had become. You make political statements without even realising it, I think.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 24, 2013)

Coley gets far too much hassle.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> im not talking about the british people, im talking about the British government and its media mouthpieces . And Labour have started worse wars than the tories in recent times. *For over 2 decades armed radical islam and jihadism was actively sponsored by Britian and to some extent given a safe haven while both were fighting a common enemy, Russia, Yugsoslavia, Gaddaffi* .Now its Assad. London was always a favoured destination for their ideologues for a very long time pre 9 11 .
> The British state has empowered and coddled these people on and off for a very long time, longer than theyve been at odds with each other . And then in the last few years when politics required it they were freedom fighters all over again . Jihadism became acceptable again , a noble profession once more.
> When the BBC praises them as freedom fighters for years and the British state pays and arms them in their crusades, and provides them with air cover thats some serious mixed messages to be sending .Because these are the very same people, dont doubt that for a second .


 
I agree. Three decades, though. They did this with Afghanistan in the 80s too. How large is the radical islamist component in the opposition to Assad? Serious question. I don't know.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Coley gets far too much hassle.


I'm not hassling him. I'm explaining to him why I won't do what he asks.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You demanded that people 'pay respect'. As for 'in service of his country', well yes, that is how many people view it. Kurt Vonnegut's last book was called 'A man without a country'. He was very clear about why he now felt he had no country - because of what his country had become. You make political statements without even realising it, I think.


 
hes an ex soldier so its understandable hed take a stronger position on it than others. For the record despite me not being a fan of the British army I think everyones dead deserve to be treated with respect . Even my enemies.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

Fair enough. Coley, I have no desire to hassle you, if that is how it is coming across.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree. Three decades, though. They did this with Afghanistan in the 80s too. How large is the radical islamist component in the opposition to Assad? Serious question. I don't know.


 
without a doubt theyre at the forefront of it . Being the most effective force in the feild entails having the lions share of the gear . Which means theyre the ones whove been receving most foreign backing . The leader of the NTC resigned because not only did he not have any control over them but because even the FSA types were lining up behind them due to strings attached on aid by their foreign sponsors. Who are largely Salafi by disposition. Even those who didnt start out as salafist have lined up with them and come under their control and influence.
Looking at all the reports coming from accross syria, not just the Assad mouthpieces , but from Lebanon, the christians , druze and even the assassinated cheif sunni cleric the message has been consistent for years. The bulk, or what seems like the bulk of the fighting groups seem to be heavily comprised of wahhabists, often foreign . And Ive seen nothing that contradicts that .

And right from the outset thereve been numerous reports of British accents among them.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not hassling him. I'm explaining to him why I won't do what he asks.


 
Sorry mate, Coley getting too much hassle was more in the nature of a general observation - Bringing it up in relation to one of your posts probably was a bit unfair.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

abby martin is discussing these issues on RT news right now, always worth a watch


----------



## Spymaster (May 24, 2013)

Cunts.


----------



## yardbird (May 24, 2013)

The Telegraph interviewed the lady who talked to the machete holder, she makes an observation.

Ten minutes passed. A crowd had gathered around the dead soldier, but still nobody else approached the suspects.
“There were 50 to 60 people,” says Mrs Loyau-Kennett. “They were watching; filming on their phones. I pushed one back because he was too close. I told them if they want to do something, come and help. It made me sad. They were thinking of themselves, not about this poor guy.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Yeah he is a legit target. He is British Army. Butchering people in Afghanistan and elsewhere, they have a record of butchering going back hundreds of years.


 
I would imagine that Urban is the only place that you will be saying this.


----------



## seventh bullet (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> I wasn't going to post this, but I used to be involved with a computer project where many migrant and refugees would use the net, etc: at the end of the day when it was time to switch off the computers, I would be shocked to see that at least once a week, a site was opened that showed decapitations, killings, etc mostly in the middle east, but also Pakistan, Indonesia, etc, one even had a axe in a mans head, I don't know the provenance of the images, Jihadi or perhaps, resistance movements, but this was ten years ago and I was shaken by what I saw. I am aware that M/E TV and other channels regularly broadcast some images , but couldn't shake the feeling that for some of these people their tolerance to violence was much higher than mine and people I know.



In recent years the warring Mexican drug cartels have been 'creative' in dealing with those who get in their way.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> Apparently Tommy Robinson will have a BBC film crew with him on Saturday in Newcastle for a Doc that will screen in the summer


well if its as good as the other ones, he will make a total bellend of himself again.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> Polish far right endorsing the EDL on FB and its reciprocal, its a love in...
> 
> quoting the battle at the gates of Vienna.


 
and werent the EDL complaining about the polish in luton/bedford etc?


----------



## Athos (May 24, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> and werent the EDL complaining about the polish in luton/bedford etc?



EDL lack a coherent ideology? Surely not.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Not sure I'm right to say think/say this, but I have at times felt uncomfortable about conversion/radicalisation of some young Black men, especially those who have lived troubled lives and are vulnerable to exploitation. Most mosques/Muslims are responsible and would not encourage this, indeed, many have rejected members pushing 'jihadi' agendas. I remember a local mosque doing a lot of work with young men holding very distorted and misguided views about Islam and what it allowed them to do in the name of Islam. However, are some elements within the Muslim community (just as in all others) whose motives are to use and exploit to further their agendas.


 
One of the Woolwich suspects was in fact radicalised at University


----------



## cyprusclean (May 24, 2013)

Der Spiegel sees the incident as a "possible" terror attack.

  Possible?

http://www.spiegel.de/international...utal-attack-as-an-act-of-terror-a-901406.html


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Coley gets far too much hassle.


 

Agreed, I often don't agree with his posts but I always find what hes got to say interesting.


----------



## barney_pig (May 24, 2013)

Bbc reporting arrests made or racist and anti religious comments on Facebook.
 From what I have read the prisons will be heaving


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

arrests made for anti-religious comments on facebook? are you serious?


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You demanded that people 'pay respect'. As for 'in service of his country', well yes, that is how many people view it. Kurt Vonnegut's last book was called 'A man without a country'. He was very clear about why he now felt he had no country - because of what his country had become. You make political statements without even realising it, I think.



Never read him, but I looked him up and came across an interesting quote from one of his books.

7. "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too."

Seems somewhat apt?


----------



## cyprusclean (May 24, 2013)

Seems the MOD advised against wearing miltary uniforms off base, when not on duty.


And he still got targeted.


----------



## cantsin (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> What's done on the battlefield is one thing, what's done in a quiet residential area is another, I do wish you would take your revolutionary fervour elsewhere and join a jihadist group and post your experiences from Allepo or similar.
> Your armchair support and justification for Assad and other murderous types gets a bit wearing.


 

" quiet residential areas "  are exactly where drones seem to be taking out foreign civi's (along with the odd 'soldier' )  on a regular basis of late,  not sure where these neatly laid out 'battlefields " are ? This is  something I guess that wouldn't be lost on anyone ideologically crazed enough to think about a Woolwich style attack. 

And "Go join the jihadi's "  is as about  as  interesting a response as "why dont you fuck off to Russia then" was back in the day. zzzz.


----------



## likesfish (May 24, 2013)

The thing about jihadists that I dont really get is why anyone would sign up for their cause its not like the eventual goal is terribly attractive.


----------



## kebabking (May 24, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Seems the MOD advised against wearing miltary uniforms off base, when not on duty.
> 
> 
> And he still got targeted.


 
its still pretty easy to target soldiers - if a young, fit bloke in his mid twenties with short hair walks out the main gate of a barracks its pretty good odds that he's a soldier regardless of what he's wearing.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> I've noticed several times on U75, when Islamonut murderers are being discussed, that people who want (rightly, IMO) to condemn the killers insist (wrongly, IMO) that the killers are cowards.
> 
> The murderers are hateful Sharia-mongering shits, but they are not cowards. In fact, they tend to be a very self-sacrificing bunch. They risk their lives - or deliberately throw their lives away - for their cause. They have the courage of their fanaticism, bolstered by their belief that dying in jihad makes them martyrs and so ensures their passage to heaven. Islamoshite fanatics make formidable fighters, as Soviet and later US and other Western soldiers have learnt in Afghanistan. Sadly, there is no shortage of them.
> 
> Why do people here insist these ruthless killers are cowards? I guess it's because calling someone a coward is a way of condemning them and calling someone brave sounds like praise. I think it is better to look at the world more clearly and speak more honestly. People with horrible reactionary politics and murderous methods are not necessarily cowards, just as people with progressive ideas are not necessarily brave.


 

Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:

*The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed.* He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.


----------



## cyprusclean (May 24, 2013)

kebabking said:


> its still pretty easy to target soldiers - if a young, fit bloke in his mid twenties with short hair walks out the main gate of a barracks its pretty good odds that he's a soldier regardless of what he's wearing.


 
So the perps must have been doing some sort of surveillance?

Or it could have been any soldier.

First come first served, to put it crudely.


----------



## co-op (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Looking at all the reports coming from accross syria, not just the Assad mouthpieces , but from Lebanon, the christians , druze and even the assassinated cheif sunni cleric the message has been consistent for years. The bulk, or what seems like the bulk of the fighting groups seem to be heavily comprised of wahhabists, often foreign . And Ive seen nothing that contradicts that .
> 
> And right from the outset thereve been numerous reports of British accents among them.


 
That's just not true of Lebanon - easily the most effective fighting force there has been Hezbollah, about as far from wahabi as you can get, in fact probably top of the wahabi to-do list in an ideal world.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

cantsin said:


> " quiet residential areas "  are exactly where drones seem to be taking out foreign civi's (along with the odd 'soldier' )  on a regular basis of late,  not sure where these neatly laid out 'battlefields " are ? This is  something I guess that wouldn't be lost on anyone ideologically crazed enough to think about a Woolwich style attack.
> 
> And "Go join the jihadi's "  is as about  as  interesting a response as "why dont you fuck off to Russia then" was back in the day. zzzz.


Did I mention neatly laid out battlefields? I was thinking more along the lines of Afghanistan and Syria not Waterloo.
And those who did "back in the day" seemed to find the experience less than rewarding.


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Pay respect, he was a soldier, prepared to die on active service, not murdered in his capital city.


fuck off. won't be cowed into that shite
agree with LBJ's post in response to your trite demand


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

likesfish said:


> The thing about jihadists that I dont really get is why anyone would sign up for their cause its not like the eventual goal is terribly attractive.


Think about that for a minute. Think.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:
> 
> *The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed.* He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.


 
Great quote.

Heroes aren't groomed


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:
> 
> *The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed.* He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.


Nice one.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 24, 2013)

staggers:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...es-better-attention-murderers-and-edl-racists


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

kebabking said:


> its still pretty easy to target soldiers - if a young, fit bloke in his mid twenties with short hair walks out the main gate of a barracks its pretty good odds that he's a soldier regardless of what he's wearing.


He may as well have been walking round with a bullseye on his back*, wearing that tshirt. 


* in these unfortunate circumstances


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

What a trite piece of factory journalism. ( The New Statesmen article)
Trillings book on the BNP has to one of the most lightweight ever written. Laurie penny described him on Twitter as an expert in the far right, chimp and typewriter springs to mind.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Haven't seen reports of this but I'm sure that like me, you've seen (even well attended) guns "blow up".
> 
> Best one that I'm aware of was a bloke with a brand new Silver Pigeon who blew his back barrels and lock to fuck on his first shot. Turned out that he'd left the gun lying around and his kid got hold of it and tried to shoot a .410 through it. When that didn't work, rather than telling his dad there was a .410 shell dropped just beyond the chamber, I reckon the kid thought 'maybe no one will notice', drpped his shoulders and whistled .... "wasn't me".
> 
> Easy to blame the shooter for not checking his barrels, but he got paid-out with a face-full of Beretta's finest walnut.


 
Difficult to stoke a revolver, though, unless a shooter is utterly unacquainted with the workings of the gun, or it's so shittily-made that it'll brew up whatever happens. About the only thing you could do to a decently-made revolver to get it to do something like that would be to fill the barrel with molten lead or pewter, or to spike the barrel at the cylinder end, so the bullet has nowhere to go, and the propellant can't get rid of its' exhaust gases.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> What a trite piece of factory journalism. ( The New Statesmen article)
> Trillings book on the BNP has to one of the most lightweight ever written. Laurie penny described him on Twitter as an expert in the far right, chimp and typewriter springs to mind.


Saves me the trouble of clicking the link


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

He provides the light relief to Mr Whelan's _look, they're fighting!! and swearing!!! _style of media-anti-fascism.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Detained under PACE btw not PTA.

edit: not sure which two suspects they mean here


----------



## kebabking (May 24, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> ...First come first served, to put it crudely.


 
almost certainly - lets not flatter this by thinking it needed a 'plan': this is two blokes deciding to batter a random person on the street with a car and the contents of their cutlery draw. it has greater political significance than that, but this is nothing that couldn't be cooked up in 2 minutes of pissed-up conversation.


----------



## ffsear (May 24, 2013)

sorry if posted already


----------



## telbert (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Is that right nigel.


 
Yes. It is.And my name is not Nigel.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

Services people: during the Gulf War we stayed with my ex-BiL on Akrotiri for a few weeks. During that time he had to do/warn us about day to day stuff. At one point, he had to carry out a series of checks for car bombs before each time we got in the car, whether on base or not, even after quickly going into a shop. Surely this must apply here, on this base. Were they lax?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

ddraig said:


> oh well, you know, rahrah, carry on toodle pip
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22646999
> 
> not even pretending to be sad


 
He's a general. He's not paid to do "sad", he's paid to make sure his command functions efficiently, even if that means all the personnel under him getting turned to human hamburger meat.


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> arrests made for anti-religious comments on facebook? are you serious?


 
I havent seen the report but its not bloody likely to be general anti-religious comments, it will be incitement to attack anyone of a specific religion etc etc.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 24, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> What a trite piece of factory journalism. ( The New Statesmen article)
> Trillings book on the BNP has to one of the most lightweight ever written. Laurie penny described him on Twitter as an expert in the far right, chimp and typewriter springs to mind.


 
thanks for that mate, saved me a few quid and wasting more shelf space!


----------



## cantsin (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Did I mention neatly laid out battlefields? I was thinking more along the lines of Afghanistan and Syria not Waterloo.
> And those who did "back in the day" seemed to find the experience less than rewarding.


 
you're just waffling mate, making arbritary calls about what is / isnt "a battlefield ", is / isn't "a combatant", waffle waffle - reality continues to grind on elsewhere, regardless.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Streathamite said:


> glorious martyrdom?


 
Insurgents don't need to win, they only need tie up the forces of their opponent, so if you've got insurgents prepared to die in order to achieve that, you're (relatively speaking) laughing.


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Difficult to stoke a revolver, though, unless a shooter is utterly unacquainted with the workings of the gun, or it's so shittily-made that it'll brew up whatever happens. About the only thing you could do to a decently-made revolver to get it to do something like that would be to fill the barrel with molten lead or pewter, or to spike the barrel at the cylinder end, so the bullet has nowhere to go, and the propellant can't get rid of its' exhaust gases.


 
I think its perfectly valid in instances like this to suggest that the reason that the revolver blew up was because God made it blow up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

ibilly99 said:


> Why do the media wheel out Islamofascist Anjem Choudary every time something like this happens- he's just been on Channel 4 News and is due on Newsnight tonight. No sense of regret at what has happened no sense of any humanity in his spoutings of hate.


 
<shayler>
He just says what his handlers tell him to say.
</shayler>


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

agricola said:


> I think its perfectly valid in instances like this to suggest that the reason that the revolver blew up was because God made it blow up.


 
_Allahu_ OH FUCK!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> And I'm supposed to differentiate... how exactly?


 
By applying the wisdom and sagacity that come with age.

Actually, by that token, shouldn't you be the wisest and most sagacious man on earth? Oh fuck!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What, us and the media together? Really? It's because he's a tout.


 
You're not allowed to say that Anjem is entirely a creation of the people who put money in his bank account, trotted out whenever they need a comedy Islamist who isn't *quite* as "central casting" as Bakri.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're not allowed to say that Anjem is entirely a creation of the people who put money in his bank account, trotted out whenever they need a comedy Islamist who isn't *quite* as "central casting" as Bakri.


Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.


----------



## kebabking (May 24, 2013)

do Islamic fundies say 'jesus fucking christ!' when revolvers blow up in their hands?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> rational balanced people tend not to take jobs as head hacking mercenaries, id have thought .


 
Depends what the pay is like.


----------



## cyprusclean (May 24, 2013)

kebabking said:


> almost certainly - lets not flatter this by thinking it needed a 'plan': this is two blokes deciding to batter a random person on the street with a car and the contents of their cutlery draw. it has greater political significance than that, but this is nothing that couldn't be cooked up in 2 minutes of pissed-up conversation.


 

 Haven't two more people been arrested in connection to this incident?
 So maybe there was some sort of organised  "plot"


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

I can see things hotting up in the prisons and YOI now.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I can see things hotting up in the prisons and YOI now.



Belmarsh not a light regime at the best of times. Air of oppression around this area as people try and get back to normal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.


 
In my personal opinion, yes. He doesn't seem to have a lot of "back story" to him except what people who knew him as a Swappie have contributed, and even that seems to be "he was a good bloke, sold his papers" stuff.  He was certainly a Swappie in So'ton at a time when the spook community were still suffering Trot fever and trying to have ears everywhere.


----------



## kebabking (May 24, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Haven't two more people been arrested in connection to this incident?
> So maybe there was some sort of organised "plot"


 
it _could_ be, but two things appear to me to rule out the idea of some long-term, thorough, multi-person plot: firstly that at least one of them knew the area, and there can't be 10 people in south-east London who don't know where Woolwich Barracks is - and secondly that, with the of greatest respect to Dmr Rigby, he was by no means the highest value target in Woolwich Barracks.

does that rule out a 'plot' in the normal meaning of the word? no, it doesn't. its possible that this 'action' was discussed - in a hypothetical way - amongst family/friends, but this didn't _need_ any help/intellectual rigour: they knew the area so didn't need information, they had no escape plan, they had only the most basic weapons, and they went for a fairly unambitious target. if some 'proper' plotting went into this, then the result, again with the greatest respect to Dmr Rigby, has got to be pretty disappointing.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.


 
Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?


Certainly did. No messing.

edit: and i haven't brought that up for idle swp bashing. There's a relevance here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> there is absolutely no justification for deliberately mutilating your opponents corpse and chopping his head off . None whatsoever, whether ones a jihadist or a gurkha or Royal marine, or a US Marine . My morals on that issue are quite clear cut . The British medias and indeed the British militarys though seem to enter a bit of a grey area depending on who is doing it to who . Which was the only point I was trying to get accross. With regard to this constant media furore, which is engaged in non stop moralising about it.


 
You need to remember that it's not *your* morals in play here, it's the morals of the insurgents and of their opponents.
Mutilation/desecration of enemy corpses has a long and inglorious history in asymmetric warfare. It's something insurgents do *not* because they're immoral or animalistic, but because they *know* that the effect of doing so magnifies the perceived level of threat to their opponents, and "puts the wind up" them.  That beheading an opponent's corpse might cause dismay to your opponents is justification enough, outside of normative morality.


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Haven't two more people been arrested in connection to this incident?
> So maybe there was some sort of organised "plot"


 
I'm thinking that even if there's no evidence to be gathered, arrests of people who knew the accused serve a function.

They send a message to anyone else who might have heard loose talk: rat now, or we tear up your floorboards later.

Sort of a less-inhumane equivalent of house demolitions.

(Also, they give the appearance of plod Doing Something.)


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

thedockerslad said:


> With a name like butchersapron you've got a fucking cheek to be asking other people to distinguish their story.


 
I'm guessing you don't get a lot of exposure to irony?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Certainly did. No messing.


 
Jesus, do we know when he left? They were willing to tolerate some well dodgy stuff from some Muslim men back in the days of STW/Respect, and often strayed onto Muslim identity bollocks (seem to remember at least one relatively senior member converting to Islam but remaining in the SWP) so he may have held some dodgy views back then too.


----------



## ibilly99 (May 24, 2013)

Mr Chaudary before the beard took hold..


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Jesus, do we know when he left? They were willing to tolerate some well dodgy stuff from some Muslim men back in the days of STW/Respect, and often strayed onto Muslim identity bollocks (seem to remember at least one relatively senior member converting to Islam but remaining in the SWP) so he may have held some dodgy views back then too.


This was well before respect - he was there as a leftist not a religious.


----------



## co-op (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> . It's something insurgents do *not* because they're immoral or animalistic, but because they *know* that the effect of doing so magnifies the perceived level of threat to their opponents, and "puts the wind up" them.


 
Not just the insurgent side. Mutilation of bodies/torture is standard practise among soldiers in occupying armies too - there's abundant evidence for that. Asymmetric warfare = atrocities are a certainty.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> staggers:
> http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...es-better-attention-murderers-and-edl-racists


 
two questions,. one is when will the left protest against the Islamic fundamentalists? and two, all over the web the EDL are being described in terms of dress, education, or in the words of one btl commentator, 'council' can't think of any other political formation that is described in this manner.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Question is, was he on the payroll when a southampton swappie? Or was he spotted as potential tool then - this would have been pr-911 i think.


 
Chaudary was SWP?

actually the way he comes across reminds me of their more fanatical members

no, they are not the same though


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?


 
a fair few of the MAB older members were too


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> two questions,. one is when will the left protest against the Islamic fundamentalists? and two, all over the web the EDL are being described in terms of dress, education, or in the words of one btl commentator, 'council' can't think of nay other political formation that is described in this manner.


 
Agree with the second point,  but how exactly _do _you protest against Islamic fundamentalists, or even fundamentalism? It's not like protesting against a government policy where the people putting it in place have to at least pretend to care what you think.

I'd have thought a much more productive approach would be to try and get muslims and non-muslims together in activities, preferably political but they don't have to be. To keep people together. Cos the real danger is that distrust and suspicion drive people apart and Muslims and non-Muslims kind of self-segregate. That kind of alienation from society is what's driving this.

Demonstrations might be tempting cos it looks like you're 'doing something' and it's a lot less tedious than the above kind of stuff but what will it achieve? What would the message be?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> a fair few of the MAB older members were too


 
MAB?


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Agree with the second point, but how exactly _do _you protest against Islamic fundamentalists, or even fundamentalism? It's not like protesting against a government policy where the people putting it in place have to at least pretend to care what you think.
> 
> I'd have thought a much more productive approach would be to try and get muslims and non-muslims together in activities, preferably political but they don't have to be. To keep people together. Cos the real danger is that distrust and suspicion drive people apart and Muslims and non-Muslims kind of self-segregate. That kind of alienation from society is what's driving this.
> 
> Demonstrations might be tempting cos it looks like you're 'doing something' and it's a lot less tedious than the above kind of stuff but what will it achieve? What would the message be?


 

Well fucking said.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I agree. Absolutely nobody deserves to die like that .


 
Very few people deserve to be murdered, full-stop.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

Sorry, MCB


Muslim Council Of Britain


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Agree with the second point, but how exactly _do _you protest against Islamic fundamentalists, or even fundamentalism? It's not like protesting against a government policy where the people putting it in place have to at least pretend to care what you think.


 
I was wondering whether treelover had put any thought into, for example, where A and B should be.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

expand please


----------



## cyprusclean (May 24, 2013)

kebabking said:


> they had no escape play.


Seems they didn't want one. They stood around waiting for the police to show  up. And got themselves filmed giving jusitfications, and issuing more threats about noone and their children being
safe on the streets, if we didn't get out of their lands.



> they had only the most basic weapons


 
Only had meat cleavers and machetes.



> and they went for a fairly unambitious target. if some 'proper' plotting went into this, then the result, again with the greatest respect to Dmr Rigby, has got to be pretty disappointing.


 
Sounded like a roaring success to me, as the incident went global. Which is what they wanted.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> If they've been brainwashed enough to carry out a suicide attack, which this was, perhaps they sincerely believe the 72 virgins in paradise bollocks. So perhaps choosing death doesn't require so much courage? I dunno, being an atheist I find it hard to see mortality and the afterlife from a god-botherer's POV.


 
The problem is that people apply psychological norms when talking about "suicide bombers". They assume that such a person is proceeding from the same *basic* set of values and rules, and that they'd require an external factor such as "brainwashing" in order to kick over the traces of those values and rules.
What doesn't get speculated on, is that a suicide mission can be a *spectacularly* rational action, that "brainwashing" might not be required for someone to work out that given the relative imbalance of power between themselves and the state, that an action that includes ones' own death, because of both what it can achieve and what it can *signify*, is sane and tactically-sound.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The problem is that people apply psychological norms when talking about "suicide bombers". They assume that such a person is proceeding from the same *basic* set of values and rules, and that they'd require an external factor such as "brainwashing" in order to kick over the traces of those values and rules.
> What doesn't get speculated on, is that a suicide mission can be a *spectacularly* rational action, that "brainwashing" might not be required for someone to work out that given the relative imbalance of power between themselves and the state, that an action that includes ones' own death, because of both what it can achieve and what it can *signify*, is sane and tactically-sound.


The key is considering yourself to be part of a greater whole that is more important than you, isn't it? In many ways it's a peculiarly modern condition _not_ to think like that.


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> expand please


 
You've never heard the phrase "A to B march"?

Where should A and B be?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> ok, if you were an insurgent deep deep behind enemy lines. Would you give your target the chance to get close to you and do you harm, or the chance to escape and identify you later . Just to be sporting .


 
If you're an insurgent behind enemy lines, you're going to let your target get as close as is necessary for you to do your job with the weapons to hand. Access to _materiel_ dictates tactics.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

where the idiots have their marches, just like  the EDL.

where you trying to insinuate I was suggesting Mosques?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> expand please


 
I assume he/she is referring to the a to b march that's the usual format for this kind of thing, where the 'b' (or the 'a') is somehow a symbol of what they're protesting. In other words where would the demo be and what/who would it focus on as the enemy/thing being protested against.

I'm not against it in principle, but in this case I just can't see how it could be effective - in fact I can see it at best being a distraction from what really needs doing - building mutual respect and a sense of shared interests between Muslims and non-muslims - and at worst achieving the exact opposite.

So what kind of demonstration were you thinking? What would its message be? Would it just be a set piece demo or a focal point for a more long-term campaign, and if so what would the campaign be?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

A barbecue would be better than a march. A march that grew out of that barbecue then... great.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I would imagine that Urban is the only place that you will be saying this.


 
Are you saying if I said it in the pub I would get a kicking because it is unpopular? If so you seem to be happy I would. So youse can keep your over emotional outrage at a squaddie getting killed in the street. He was in the military for 7 years, I wonder how many folk he killed out in Iraq and Afghanistan many of whom were innocent. Did he perhaps help to call in an airstrike on a position which had little kids in it who after the airstrike were unidentifiable and just bits of skin and bones?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

telbert said:


> This is not what happened.Two cowardly fucking savages tried to decapitate an unarmed,totally unaware man in woolwich.After they smashed him up in the air with a car. Thats what happened.


 
The nature of warfare, whether it's perceived or actual warfare, is that you do what is necessary to get the job done. If they'd had assault rifles or an smg, I've no doubt they'd have shot him, rather than running him over. The beheading, as _post-mortem_ beheadings usually are, was symbolic. Value-judgements like "cowardly" and "savage" are meaningless in assessing what was done and why, they're just emotion-fueled flatulence for the outraged. Analyse what has occurred, *then* give rein to your emotions, otherwise you're little better than the wankers on your TV screen who're currently playing this for their own advantage, because you're allowing them to play *you*.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

The simple point is, a demo against the EDL is axiomatic on the left, perhaps with some even knee jerk, why isn't it with chaudary and his ilk?

anyway, I think I will leave this issue, I can't type much and do it justice.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

ddraig said:


> fuck off. won't be cowed into that shite
> agree with LBJ's post in response to your trite demand


Cowed? WTF? And while I don't agree with LBJs argument at least he presents one,whereas you just seem to want to demonstrate what a little gobshyte you can be.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> where the idiots have their marches, just like the EDL.


 
I wouldn't be opposed to that at all. It would be most effective if it was on the back of the kind of community campaigns I mentioned before, so that it was muslims and non-muslims opposing them. That's the kind of message it needs to be IMO - you're scum and decent people, muslims and non-muslims are united in disgust and opposition.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> two questions,. one is when will the left protest against the Islamic fundamentalists? and two, all over the web the EDL are being described in terms of dress, education, or in the words of one btl commentator, 'council' can't think of any other political formation that is described in this manner.


Your first question, I answered in a jokey way yesterday.

As to the second, people are paying attention to what kind of people are in EDL [read here: they help cause this trouble]. Also, it is not hard (in an area of social deprivation) to go very quickly from (1) relatively high individual  racism + good race relations = relatively normal environment, relatively happy, people rub together well; to (2) very low individual racism as community pulls together + poor race relations under outside threat = abnormal environment, people struggling to get back to normal, potential riot situation


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2013)

On the second, you point isn't mine, its the 'ill fitting suits' snobbery which left liberals and plenty of tory types pour all over the web.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> The simple point is, a demo against the EDL is axiomatic on the left, perhaps with some even knee jerk, why isn't it with chaudary and his ilk?
> 
> anyway, I think I will leave this issue, I can't type much and do it justice.


 
I get what you mean but I don't actually think the marching against the EDL thing is especially effective either. It's allowed people to ignore the issues that are driving its support, and the hard slog dealing with them would entail, in favour of ineffective 'vibrant' marches with samba bands and shit.

But if Butchers's barbecues came first, and the (muslim and non-muslim) groups that held the barbecues called the march/counter-demo then it would be much more powerful IMO.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> On the second, you point isn't mine, its the 'ill fitting suits' snobbery which left liberals and plenty of tory types pour all over the web.


Ah, you are commenting on the normal liberal stuff that always comes out of the woodwork, I see.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not the war, just the killings - think now...


 
Get to fuck you cunt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> So not condoning what happened to him but he was a legitimate target?


 
It's exactly what the IRA used to say about off-duty soldiers, and they acted on it plenty of times, too. Kill an off-duty soldier and you don't just lessen the forces against you by one soldier, you also put the wind up every other soldier *and* cost the MoD money as it invariably scampers to beef up the substandard security that a lot of the military "estate" has (excepting, of course, the MoD itself, for some strange reason).


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> where the idiots have their marches, just like the EDL.
> 
> where you trying to insinuate I was suggesting Mosques?


 
I was merely pointing out that you were indulging in the tired and tedious trope "if my opponents don't do what I say, however daft, I win the argument."

But now you mention you had that in mind: fuck off.


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

Was having a conversation with a mate a while back about this sort of stuff and she said something along the lines of "with all the discrimination against jews around the world it's a wonder no jewish people have done something like 9/11."

it's disturbing how this kind of thing has become, not acceptable obviously, but like seen to be some sort of an understandable response, like something people might do in response to religious persecution and you wonder why people _haven't_ done it as opposed to why they did. Its no reflection on her because i've wondered that exact thing myself before (although obviously there have been people like baruch goldstein etc), just on the state of society. It scares the fucking shit out of me. How the fuck did we get to this point?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

laptop said:


> I was merely pointing out that you were indulging in the tired and tedious trope "if my opponents don't do what I say, however daft, I win the argument."
> 
> But now you mention you had that in mind: fuck off.


 
That's an odd and unnecessary post.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Was having a conversation with a mate a while back about this sort of stuff and she said something along the lines of "with all the discrimination against jews around the world it's a wonder no jewish people have done something like 9/11."
> 
> it's disturbing how this kind of thing has become, not acceptable obviously, but like an understandable response, like something people might do in response to religious persecution and you wonder why people _haven't_ done it as opposed to why they did. Its no reflection on her because i've wondered that exact thing myself before (although obviously there have been people like baruch goldstein etc), just on the state of society. It scares the fucking shit out of me. How the fuck did we get to this point?


Have we ever not been at this point?


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Was having a conversation with a mate a while back about this sort of stuff and she said something along the lines of "with all the discrimination against jews around the world it's a wonder no jewish people have done something like 9/11."
> 
> it's disturbing how this kind of thing has become, not acceptable obviously, but like an understandable response, like something people might do in response to religious persecution and you wonder why people _haven't_ done it as opposed to why they did. Its no reflection on her because i've wondered that exact thing myself before, just on the state of society. It scares the fucking shit out of me. How the fuck did we get to this point?


 
Y'know I had the exact same feeling with the attempted terrorist attack in dewsbury against the EDL, I remember thinking the first time I saw the EDL on the street that some maniac Michael Stone type attack with a few grenades and a pistol could cause a hell of a lot of damage here.


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Have we ever not been at this point?


 

well yeah but i just find it all depressing and horrible, also i can empathise with the feelings a bit more than i'd like, i'd like to say that i dont understand why people become terrorists or whatever but i think i do to some extent, although i don't understand how anyone can stand there and kill somebody and not have any remorse. sorry.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Y'know I had the exact same feeling with the attempted terrorist attack in dewsbury against the EDL, I remember thinking the first time I saw the EDL on the street that some maniac Michael Stone type attack with a few grenades and a pistol could cause a hell of a lot of damage here.


 
But then you couldn't source the grenades?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Y'know I had the exact same feeling with the attempted terrorist attack in dewsbury against the EDL, I remember thinking the first time I saw the EDL on the street that some maniac Michael Stone type attack with a few grenades and a pistol could cause a hell of a lot of damage here.


Didn't know you liked performance art delboy.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Didn't know you liked performance art delboy.


 
We used to have a pic for this one.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

JimW said:


> We used to have a pic for this one.


We still do (little small though):


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

So on this thread.

We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.

Many have attacked me and even told me to join the jihadis because I questioned whether he was a legitimate target militarily. I for one am glad they decided to attack military targets instead of the everyone is too blame 7/7 style attacks on innocent people.

Many have took the stance that the killing is more abhorrent because it was in a quite suburban area and in their back yard and not in the battlefields of afghanistan.

Funnily enough this was the same position many on the left took after the IRA were picking off squaddies in the UK during the troubles.

Many have called the killing cowardly yet harldy anyone has commented on the 'cowardly' attacks which place in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Dropping a bomb on civilians and weddings, drone strikes on villages etc.

Some have applauded the skills of the armed police unit who managed to shot one of the killers before he attacked them. These are the same armed police units that murdered jean charles de menezes and countless other innocent people. 

Is this a fair assessment? Btw I do not condone what happened to him and I am not a Jihadi. I think what happened was a political murder.


----------



## Streathamite (May 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:
> 
> *The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed.* He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.


terrrific quote


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

I didn't say i thought it was more abhorrent, I think what we edit: not we, the ruling class are doing in afghanistan is completely disgraceful, we should not be there.

All I'm saying is that I think a different motivation is going on apart from the "war" one.


----------



## cyprusclean (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> although i don't understand how anyone can stand there and kill somebody and not have any remorse. sorry.


 

  And the way that they killed him.


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Cowed? WTF? And while I don't agree with LBJs argument at least he presents one,whereas you just seem to want to demonstrate what a little gobshyte you can be.


i was using Dave's word, and i'm a gobshite for disagreeing with you? do one


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> I didn't say i thought it was more abhorrent, I think what we are doing in afghanistan is completely disgraceful, we should not be there.
> 
> All I'm saying is that I think a different motivation is going on apart from the "war" one.


 
I'm not talking about you there frogwoman.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Are you saying if I said it in the pub I would get a kicking because it is unpopular? If so you seem to be happy I would. So youse can keep your over emotional outrage at a squaddie getting killed in the street. He was in the military for 7 years, I wonder how many folk he killed out in Iraq and Afghanistan many of whom were innocent. Did he perhaps help to call in an airstrike on a position which had little kids in it who after the airstrike were unidentifiable and just bits of skin and bones?


 
I must say I am impressed with your ability to read my mind. Probably second to the greatest mind reader of all time







Anyway in between cheering on opening up the second front for Islamists  test out your hypothesis not just in the pub but at work, parties, whilst shopping , nip down the local mosque even ?


----------



## Stigmata (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.


 
He probably didn't though did he


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> He probably didn't though did he


 
How the fuck do you know?


----------



## telbert (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The nature of warfare, whether it's perceived or actual warfare, is that you do what is necessary to get the job done. If they'd had assault rifles or an smg, I've no doubt they'd have shot him, rather than running him over. The beheading, as _post-mortem_ beheadings usually are, was symbolic. Value-judgements like "cowardly" and "savage" are meaningless in assessing what was done and why, they're just emotion-fueled flatulence for the outraged. Analyse what has occurred, *then* give rein to your emotions, otherwise you're little better than the wankers on your TV screen who're currently playing this for their own advantage, because you're allowing them to play *you*.


 


Unfortunately for this young man,i suspect warfare was far from his mind  as he was walking along a London street, on his own,out of uniform and completely unarmed.If the cicumstances were different,even slightly,i doubt these cowards would have done what they did.There are plenty of oppotunities for this sort of attack in london where the victim would stand more than a zero chance of fighting back.It was a "soft"target.You know it, i know it and they knew it.And please dont use the fact that they ran at the O.B. when they turned up as an example of their outstanding bravery.Their target was a Soldier.An unarmed one.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I must say I am impressed with your ability to read my mind. Probably second to the greatest mind reader of all time
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh btw don't answer any of the other questions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> whatever the case its quite likely these guys used those types of videos as a means of building up the mental capacity to carry the attack out .


 
Doesn't really work like that unless it's part of a regimented programme of desensitisation, and even then (as armies the world around find out every time new recruits first go into action) the indoctrination doesn't always take.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> So on this thread.
> 
> We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.
> 
> ...


 
I think it was a political murder too and like you am relieved they seem to have practised some sort of targeting. But the politics are fucking abhorrent, both in terms of overall ideology and the justification of yourself as detached radical committing an attentat, just as they were for the RAF etc and other groups who I might have been closer to in overall terms. Sorry for the victim because in this context he's more the young lad with a kid than a squaddie; that part of his identity comes to the fore when he's actually war-fighting. That sympathy comes from exactly the same place as the horror I feel thinking of families blown apart by coalition bombs in Afghanistan, including blokes who may have taken a potshot at Western forces.


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Many have took the stance that the killing is more abhorrent because it was in a quite suburban area and in their back yard and not in the battlefields of afghanistan.
> 
> Funnily enough this was the same position many on the left took after the IRA were picking off squaddies in the UK during the troubles.


 
I think we can conclude that the attack has "intimidate[d] the public or a section of the public" - people are reacting from fear. Including those who might be expected to have an analysis.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Oh btw don't answer any of the other questions.


 
Seeing as you don't know the answers and I don't its a bit meaningless and even if we did know it won't have been the reason that he was singled out from any other soldier.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Seeing as you don't know the answers and I don't its a bit meaningless


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

JimW said:


> I think it was a political murder too and like you am relieved they seem to have practised some sort of targeting. But the politics are fucking abhorrent, both in terms of overall ideology and the justification of yourself as detached radical committing an attentat, just as they were for the RAF etc and other groups who I might have been closer to in overall terms. Sorry for the victim because in this context he's more the young lad with a kid than a squaddie; that part of his identity comes to the fore when he's actually war-fighting. That sympathy comes from exactly the same place as the horror I feel thinking of families blown apart by coalition bombs in Afghanistan, including blokes who may have taken a potshot at Western forces.


 

Well said.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Well said.


 
Don't encourage me, might go to my head and before you know it I'm the next Owen Jones/Laurie Penny.


----------



## telbert (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> So on this thread.
> 
> We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.
> 
> ...


 




Yes your right, no one knows if he committed any crimes in Iraq or Afghanistan.No one knows if he butchered any children.Until recently no one knew if he had even been to those places.In fact no one was certain he was even a soldier.Including you. But then you'd already come to your own conclussion that he must be, and must have done all of these things. And you talk of  an overly emotional/kneejerk stance?Shame on you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

cesare said:


> Services people: during the Gulf War we stayed with my ex-BiL on Akrotiri for a few weeks. During that time he had to do/warn us about day to day stuff. At one point, he had to carry out a series of checks for car bombs before each time we got in the car, whether on base or not, even after quickly going into a shop. Surely this must apply here, on this base. Were they lax?


 
Not sure about Woolwich, but a lot of barracks etc, it's private sector security, and it is shite.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

JimW said:


> I think it was a political murder too and like you am relieved they seem to have practised some sort of targeting. But the politics are fucking abhorrent, both in terms of overall ideology and the justification of yourself as detached radical committing an attentat, just as they were for the RAF etc and other groups who I might have been closer to in overall terms. Sorry for the victim because in this context he's more the young lad with a kid than a squaddie; that part of his identity comes to the fore when he's actually war-fighting. That sympathy comes from exactly the same place as the horror I feel thinking of families blown apart by coalition bombs in Afghanistan, including blokes who may have taken a potshot at Western forces.


Agree totally.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> So on this thread.
> 
> We have seen many people with what I feel have sound political views take an overly emotional/kneejerk stance on the killing of a soldier who many have described as 'innocent' without knowing if he has committed any crime in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy who could have butchered children has been held up as some type of hero.
> 
> ...


Maybe, manny, you should ask yourself why so many people with politics that you consider to be sound are saying what they're saying.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

co-op said:


> Not just the insurgent side. Mutilation of bodies/torture is standard practise among soldiers in occupying armies too - there's abundant evidence for that. Asymmetric warfare = atrocities are a certainty.


 
Fair point.


----------



## JHE (May 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, I see where you're coming from, but I'd still go with butchers' "kiddy cowardice" line, and I'm reminded of something Umberto Eco said in a different context:
> 
> *The real hero is always a hero by mistake; he dreams of being an honest coward like everybody else. If it had been possible he would have settled the matter otherwise, and without bloodshed.* He doesn't boast of his own death or of others'. But he does not repent. He suffers and keeps his mouth shut; if anything, others then exploit him, making him a myth, while he, the man worthy of esteem, was only a poor creature who reacted with dignity and courage in an event bigger than he was.


 
The question of who Eco or you or anyone else thinks is a hero is entirely separate from the question of whether the killers in Woolwich are brave.  For Eco it seems courage is part of what makes a hero, but only part.  For some others, a hero may be defined by footballing skills or dancing skills or a good voice or good looks. It may have absolutely nothing do do with courage.  Equally for some nasty Slamists these killers in Woolwich may become heroes, not because of their bravery, but because of their fidelity to jihad and their success in killing so publicly and so gaining maximum publicity for their act and their words.

As for "kiddy cowardice"... eh?  What does that mean?  I would guess that it means cowardice of the sort that is characteristic of children, but the behaviour of cowardly children is nothing like the behaviour of the two Islamic butchers in Woolwich.  Admittedly, my experience of children is limited, but don't cowardly children run away screaming, seek the sanctuary of mummy or daddy, hide behind the sofa, weep...?  I don't think kiddies, cowardly or otherwise, usually carve people up with meat cleavers, make well-prepared statements to camera about their cause or launch kamikazi attacks on armed Plod.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The key is considering yourself to be part of a greater whole that is more important than you, isn't it? In many ways it's a peculiarly modern condition _not_ to think like that.


 
Very much so. In fact the sort of thinking deliberately inculcated into military forces - that your own life is sometimes of less value than the objective - is a variant on that argument.


----------



## telbert (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe, manny, you should ask yourself why so many people with politics that you consider to be sound are saying what they're saying.


 

 Good Hit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> And the way that they killed him.


 
The way the soldier was killed was deliberate, as was the attempted decapitation of his corpse. As I said in an earlier post, the killers used the means to hand, with the point they wanted to make firmly in mind. If they'd had long-arms rather than cutlery and a side-arm, I've absolutely no doubt they'd have shot him dead and still attempted to decapitate him. They went there to make a statement, and they succeeded. Remorse doesn't figure into this. Why would it when what they're purportedly carrying out insurgency in support of isn't the subject of remorse by any of the "western" participants?


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not sure about Woolwich, but a lot of barracks etc, it's private sector security, and it is shite.


Thanks. There have been incidents related to the Barracks before, of course. I think they are maybe a little naive/complacent/not sure how to describe it of the local population, just take things at face value perhaps.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> He probably didn't though did he


 
Not something you can know, though. His main role was as a machine-gunner, which effectively means he'd be providing suppressive fire to enable his oppos to manouvre, plus laying down aggressive fire against opposition and against their redoubts, so "probably" is pure speculation and wishful thinking (insofar as we like to believe that our soldiers don't kill children, even accidentally).


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe, manny, you should ask yourself why so many people with politics that you consider to be sound are saying what they're saying.


 
Don't respond to any of the points I made.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

telbert said:


> Yes your right, no one knows if he committed any crimes in Iraq or Afghanistan.No one knows if he butchered any children.Until recently no one knew if he had even been to those places.In fact no one was certain he was even a soldier.Including you. But then you'd already come to your own conclussion that he must be, and must have done all of these things. And you talk of an overly emotional/kneejerk stance?Shame on you.


 
My reaction was not knee jerk. I waited to hear the facts, then I said what I said.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe, manny, you should ask yourself why so many people with politics that you consider to be sound are saying what they're saying.


 
Ok so what you are saying here is. Because the majority of the time what you and other posters I regard to have good politics say I agree with, I should also agree with youse on this? Yep you are always right butchers...keep telling yourself that.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Don't respond to any of the points I made.


You listed a whole heap of angry misrepresentations rather than responding to any of the points made in the thread by those posters you consider to be politically sound. There's nothing to respond to. There was more to respond to in your post that simply said to me:



manny-p said:


> Get to fuck you cunt.


 
At least that drew a line - and one that you put me and you on other sides but without you having the bottle to follow your claimed politics through - that involves defending this killing, supporting others and getting your own hands dirty.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You listed a whole heap of angry misrepresentations rather than responding to any of the points made in the thread by those posters you consider to be politically sound. There's nothing to respond to. There was more to respond to in your post that simply said to me:
> 
> 
> 
> At least that drew a line - and one that you put me and you on other sides but without you having the bottle to follow your claimed politics through - that involves defending this killing, supporting others and getting your own hands dirty.


 
When did I defend the killing? I was putting the killing in its context. You are one disingenious cunt.


----------



## telbert (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> My reaction was not knee jerk. I waited to hear the facts, then I said what I said.


 

Where was it stated as fact that he was all these things then?I say this because you seem to have him down as a cross between Pol Pot and Ian Brady


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> When did I defend the killing? I was putting the killing in its context. You are one disingenious cunt.


In your various misrepresentations of what others have said, of the points they made and by your drawing of a line that says - you lot, state supporters, murderers on this side - me and the virtuous who will do anything to stop the state murder on the other.

Remember that last time you went all angry and started calling people cunts based on a total misreading of what they said and what they were doing? Maybe you should.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> By applying the wisdom and sagacity that come with age.
> 
> Actually, by that token, shouldn't you be the wisest and most sagacious man on earth? Oh fuck!!!


 
Bow, minion!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

telbert said:


> Unfortunately for this young man,i suspect warfare was far from his mind as he was walking along a London street, on his own,out of uniform and completely unarmed.


 
I'd say you're about 100% wrong.
As far back as I can remember (and I'm sure Sass and coley can remember even further back!  ), you're inculcated with personal security awareness. Not just when you're on base/in uniform, but 24/7, and it penetrates well enough that you've *always* got your antennae tuned for things "out of the ordinary".
I'm not putting the onus for his death on the soldier, btw, I'm simply saying that your assumptions about his state of mind are likely to be inaccurate.



> If the cicumstances were different,even slightly,i doubt these cowards would have done what they did.There are plenty of oppotunities for this sort of attack in london where the victim would stand more than a zero chance of fighting back.


 
Such as?
Most of the places I'd target, given the _materiel_ they had to hand, would be of the same calibre. As I said earlier, access to _materiel_ dictates tactics. If you have a rocket-launcher, you go after a harder target. If you have cutlery, a car and a pistol, you go after a softer target. This isn't to do with cowardice (although I can understand that it appeals to you, and to many others to make it an issue of courage or the lack of it), it's to do with pragmatism.



> It was a "soft"target.You know it, i know it and they knew it.


 
Yes.



> And please dont use the fact that they ran at the O.B. when they turned up as an example of their outstanding bravery.Their target was a Soldier.An unarmed one.


 
Yes, I know. I've acknowledged that fact over and again. It's a shame you've been unable to take that on board, due to your apparent fondness for emotional argument over critical thinking.
Running at the old bill isn't "brave", neither is it "stupid", "heroic" or a thousand other judgemental words. It was what it was - an attempt to end a mission on their terms rather than on the terms of their opponents.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

Lets target the Christians because of the Crusades


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> In your various misrepresentations of what others have said, of the points they made and by your drawing of a line that says - you lot, state supporters, murderers on this side - me and the virtuous who will do anything to stop the state murder on the other.
> 
> Remember that last time you went all angry and started calling people cunts based on a total misreading of what they said and what they were doing? Maybe you should.


 
I was never angry. I am sitting here perfectly calm writing this. Out of all the posters who post here, you have a very academic style of writing. I don't understand what you are saying half the time so perhaps that's why I may have mis read what you have said. I don't know why you write the way you do, maybe you could tone it down abit and stop speaking in tongues.

P.s-I maybe shouldn't have called you a cunt but you were publically saying I was defending the killing of that soldier and I was not. I was explaining why the killing was politically motivated and that they killed him for what he was- a man who signed up to kill on behalf of the rich and a man who is partly responsible for deaths in muslim lands.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> The question of who Eco or you or anyone else thinks is a hero is entirely separate from the question of whether the killers in Woolwich are brave. For Eco it seems courage is part of what makes a hero, but only part. For some others, a hero may be defined by footballing skills or dancing skills or a good voice or good looks. It may have absolutely nothing do do with courage. Equally for some nasty Slamists these killers in Woolwich may become heroes, not because of their bravery, but because of their fidelity to jihad and their success in killing so publicly and so gaining maximum publicity for their act and their words.


 
Yeah, yeah, whatever. Beg the question some more, why don't you. The two lads tried to commit "suicide by cop" because they had already murdered the poor sod - and murdered him in yes, a cowardly fashion. The bravery of their charge at armed police was only the result of the path they had already set themselves on.



JHE said:


> As for "kiddy cowardice"... eh? What does that mean? I would guess that it means cowardice of the sort that is characteristic of children, but the behaviour of cowardly children is nothing like the behaviour of the two Islamic butchers in Woolwich. Admittedly, my experience of children is limited, but don't cowardly children run away screaming, seek the sanctuary of mummy or daddy, hide behind the sofa, weep...? I don't think kiddies, cowardly or otherwise, usually carve people up with meat cleavers, make well-prepared statements to camera about their cause or launch kamikazi attacks on armed Plod.


 
It's like one of those metaphorical yokes. When Lenin described his ultra-leftist critics as "infantile" he wasn't alleging that they were keen fans of the Teletubbies, or the 1917 equivalent thereof. He was using an ad hominem attack to highlight what he saw as an unrealistic, ill-informed, ill-thought out political position.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> I was never angry. I am sitting here perfectly calm writing this. Out of all the posters who post here, you have a very academic style of writing. I don't understand what you are saying half the time so perhaps that's why I may have mis read what you have said. I don't know why you write the way you do, maybe you could tone it down abit and stop speaking in tongues.
> 
> P.s-I maybe shouldn't have called you a cunt but you were publically saying I was defending the killing of that soldier and I was not. I was explaining why the killing was politically motivated and that they killed him for what he was- a man who signed up to kill on behalf of the rich and a man who is partly responsible for deaths in muslim lands.


I have said it was a political murder and argued at length why bullshit arguments about if it was either  an act of war or murder/criminality miss the point and miss the politics of the thing. I want the specific political nature of the act recognised and have said so. Your response is one-sided and misses the political use made of the lad killed here.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I have said it was a political murder and argued at length why bullshit arguments about if it was either an act of war or murder/criminality miss the point and miss the politics of the thing. I want the specific political nature of the act recognised and have said so. Your response is one-sided and misses the political use made of the lad killed here.


 
The 'lad'. One of our 'lads'.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> The 'lad'. One of our 'lads'.


Lad = young man. And yes, quite probably someone who needs to be seen as one of us politically, at least as part of our constituency, if we're ever going to go anywhere.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Lad = young man. And yes, quite probably someone who needs to be seen as one of us politically if we're ever going to go anywhere.


 
One of 'our lads'. Support 'our lads'.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...
> Running at the old bill isn't "brave", neither is it "stupid", "heroic" or a thousand other judgemental words. It was what it was - an attempt to end a mission on their terms rather than on the terms of their opponents.


Looking at the video of that even that seemed to have a tactic to it, the one charging headlong and the other with the pistol hanging back, so he would have got some shots off at unprepared targets if it wasn't for the misfire - think they seem to spot him late. Wonder if they had thought that through or it just played out that way? (Idly, hardly the most important aspect)


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> One of 'our lads'. Support 'our lads'.


Yes manny. Clearly. Hence me being in town with my help for heroes stall every saturday morning.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

When you become so rabid that the use of the word lad sends you spinning off into angry misplaced incorrect denunciations, well, job done i suppose.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> When you become so rabid that the use of the word lad sends you spinning off into angry misplace incorrect denunciations, well, job done i suppose.


 
OK lad. If you say so.


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

Something that hasn't been mentioned very much on the thread is that one of them was a convert. that to me suggests there's something else other than an anti-imperialist thing going on here imo, obviously the reasons for that and the response "we" should have are political


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Something that hasn't been mentioned very much on the thread is that one of them was a convert. that to me suggests there's something else other than an anti-imperialist thing going on here imo, obviously the reasons for that and the response "we" should have are political


They were both reverts i think.


----------



## telbert (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd say you're about 100% wrong.
> As far back as I can remember (and I'm sure Sass and coley can remember even further back!  ), you're inculcated with personal security awareness. Not just when you're on base/in uniform, but 24/7, and it penetrates well enough that you've *always* got your antennae tuned for things "out of the ordinary".
> I'm not putting the onus for his death on the soldier, btw, I'm simply saying that your assumptions about his state of mind are likely to be inaccurate.
> 
> ...


 


 I think having your antenae tuned for anything out of the ordinary  is a good example of  how things used to be ie. the unattended bag,the nervous looking bloke thats avoiding eye contact etc. Doesnt do you a lot of good when your hit from behind by a car while your on the pavement.Like i said ,the rules have changed.


 Material to hand has nothing to do with bravery.Thats why the bloke  who charges at the machine gun nest on his own with just a pistol or a grenade gets a medal. The three other blokes that haven't got the courage to do it at that time dont.
  Plenty of armed police in London.And i bet theres plenty of armed soldiers on the gates of barracks all over the place.In fact would there have been an armed soldier at Woolwich barracks?Strangely none of these were attacked.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Something that hasn't been mentioned very much on the thread is that one of them was a convert. that to me suggests there's something else other than an anti-imperialist thing going on here imo, obviously the reasons for that and the response "we" should have are political


 
Sorry just re-read what you wrote.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They were both reverts i think.


 
First one named was from a Christian family I think it's reported.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

manny-p the *actual* situation is *far* more complicated than you set out in your summary


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

JimW said:


> First one named was from a Christian family I think it's reported.


Both were - one 'went away' and came back muslim, the other one became muslim early 2000s.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

cesare said:


> manny-p the *actual* situation is *far* more complicated than you set out in your summary


 
Expand on it then mate. It was not meant to be an in depth essay of the situation but a basic summary.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Both were - one 'went away' and came back muslim, the other one became muslim early 2000s.


 
Ah, I've not read much about the second lad yet.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Expand on it then mate. It was not meant to be an in depth essay of the situation but a basic summary.


I can only expand on what it's actually like, as opposed to views/questions/opinions expressed on thread


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

JimW said:


> Ah, I've not read much about the second lad yet.


Nice use of lad


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Both were - one 'went away' and came back muslim, the other one became muslim early 2000s.


 

yeah, so why are people converting to violent and fanatical religious beliefs which support the use of terroristic violence? why is this attractive and what can we do about it politically etc? (not just islam - some of the nastiest zionist settlers are people who are either converts or came from a very secular background, wouldn't surprise me if abortion-clinic bombers had similar things in their backgrounds)

why would you start thinking your family were infidels who should be killed because they were from another religion (or a less fanatical form of the same religion)? what sort of processes in society and in these guys heads are going on so this takes place?


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Nice use of lad


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> yeah, so why are people converting to violent and fanatical relgious beliefs which support the use of terroristic violence? why is this attractive and what can we do about it politically etc? (not just islam - some of the nastiest zionist settlers are people who are either converts or came from a very secular background, wouldn't surprise me if abortion-clinic bombers had similar things in their backgrounds)
> 
> why would you start thinking your family were infidels who should be killed because they were from another religion (or a less fanatical form of the same religion)? what sort of processes in society and in these guys heads are going on so this takes place?


Whatever it is, it isn't one that easily describe or brought down to a few details - whatever it/they are can only work in a situation of massive alienation from society, from what you think others can offer you, from everyone around you. That's the start point i think.


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> yeah, so why are people converting to violent and fanatical religious beliefs which support the use of terroristic violence? why is this attractive and what can we do about it politically etc? (not just islam - some of the nastiest zionist settlers are people who are either converts or came from a very secular background, wouldn't surprise me if abortion-clinic bombers had similar things in their backgrounds)
> 
> why would you start thinking your family were infidels who should be killed because they were from another religion (or a less fanatical form of the same religion)? what sort of processes in society and in these guys heads are going on so this takes place?


 
One would imagine its the old cliche of the person who doesnt fit / doesnt think they fit in to society A, switching to society B and trying desperately hard to be accepted by their new society that they end up doing things that they never would have considered otherwise. 

Though there is also the argument that some people are basically twats, irrespective of their religion / politics.


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

and the acceptance and camaraderie of fellow nutters who are sometimes part of uni islamic societies


----------



## JHE (May 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Yeah, yeah, whatever. Beg the question some more, why don't you. The two lads tried to commit "suicide by cop" because they had already murdered the poor sod - and murdered him in yes, a cowardly fashion. *The bravery of their charge at armed police was only the result of the path they had already set themselves on*.


 
You acknowledge that it was brave.  Now maybe we are getting somewhere.  Yes, it was a result of the path they had taken:  the path of murder and probable death.  This included the decision not to flee the scene of their gruesome murder, but to stay, give statements and wait for Plod.  They had already decided to sacrifice themselves for their cause.  You hate to acknowledge that they have courage, but it is obvious that they did and even you partially acknowledge it.



> It's like one of those metaphorical yokes. When Lenin described his ultra-leftist critics as "infantile" he wasn't alleging that they were keen fans of the Teletubbies, or the 1917 equivalent thereof. He was using an ad hominem attack to highlight what he saw as an unrealistic, ill-informed, ill-thought out political position.


 
Identifying the childishness of ultra-leftists, in Little Father Lenin's assessment, contributes nothing to your attempt to portray these murderers as cowardly.

I think it is childish to pretend that courageous evil is cowardice.  Calling these jihadis cowardly is about on the level of saying they smell of poo.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

They do, and so do you. Why aren't you gloating anyway? Oh you are, but in a civilized fashion.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> They had already decided to sacrifice themselves for their cause. You hate to acknowledge that they have courage, but it is obvious that they did and even you partially acknowledge it.


 
Whereas you love to acknowledge their "bravery" (note to self: don't leave out the inverted commas), because - just like the jihadis you love to hate - you enjoy the feeling of living in a horror comic. Therefore, for your purposes, the "courage" and "bravery" of the jihadis can only serve to boost the perceived courage and bravery of the great JHE.

It's something like how they needed the myth of Rommel to build up the myth of Monty.


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

agricola said:


> Though there is also the argument that some people are basically twats


----------



## malatesta32 (May 24, 2013)

treelover said:


> two questions,. one is when will the left protest against the Islamic fundamentalists? and two, all over the web the EDL are being described in terms of dress, education, or in the words of one btl commentator, 'council' can't think of any other political formation that is described in this manner.


 
hey trees! islamic fundamentalists are nothing compared to cuts, benefits attacks etc. and how do the left protest em? by getting pissed in a car park like the edl? the point is if there are any we dont know where they are even if they did represent something more than wankers like those 2 guys and anjem choudry. as for classist criticism of EDL see this and the EDL for our criticisms on that 1. for many of us, antifascists look just like em, went to the same schools, tedious football matches and leisure wear vendors!!!


----------



## likesfish (May 24, 2013)

Its no suprise uni islamic socs can be a bit suspect much like uni christian groups or uni politics full of young people being full on.
 Leftie groups were always making a lot of noise and the fcs best left well alone.
   Fortunatly christian groups, swp students or the fcs have so far  not produced any terrorists. islamic nutters have turned up though.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

co-op said:


> That's just not true of Lebanon - easily the most effective fighting force there has been Hezbollah, about as far from wahabi as you can get, in fact probably top of the wahabi to-do list in an ideal world.


 
youve completely misunderstood my post in that regard, i was talking abourt reports from lebanon about whats happening in syria


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You need to remember that it's not *your* morals in play here, it's the morals of the insurgents and of their opponents.
> Mutilation/desecration of enemy corpses has a long and inglorious history in asymmetric warfare. It's something insurgents do *not* because they're immoral or animalistic, but because they *know* that the effect of doing so magnifies the perceived level of threat to their opponents, and "puts the wind up" them. That beheading an opponent's corpse might cause dismay to your opponents is justification enough, outside of normative morality.


 
i know that, but the post was in response to a series of insinuations and accusations that i somehow supported the mutilation of the soldier


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i know that, but the post was in response to a series of insinuations and accusations that i somehow supported the mutilation of the soldier


 
That's no excuse to do something as vapid as arguing from a moral standpoint. That's the purview of vicars, politicians and other dubiously-inclined fuckwits!


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's no excuse to do something as vapid as arguing from a moral standpoint. That's the *purview* of vicars, politicians and other dubiously-inclined fuckwits!


 
purview ?...puurrvviieww ? where do you think you are..some sort of  regency fucking costume drama  ?


----------



## Stigmata (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not something you can know, though. His main role was as a machine-gunner, which effectively means he'd be providing suppressive fire to enable his oppos to manouvre, plus laying down aggressive fire against opposition and against their redoubts, so "probably" is pure speculation and wishful thinking (insofar as we like to believe that our soldiers don't kill children, even accidentally).


 
I'll grant that it's speculation. But given the nature of the UK role in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the likely number of times any given soldier is likely to have been in a firefight, and assuming a decent level of training and professionalism, it's more likely that he hasn't killed a child than that he has. I'm not an expert of course but the majority of military and ex-military I know have never killed anyone (most of them were AGC, mind)


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The nature of warfare, whether it's perceived or actual warfare, is that you do what is necessary to get the job done. If they'd had assault rifles or an smg, I've no doubt they'd have shot him, rather than running him over. The beheading, as _post-mortem_ beheadings usually are, was symbolic. Value-judgements like "cowardly" and "savage" are meaningless in assessing what was done and why, they're just emotion-fueled flatulence for the outraged. Analyse what has occurred, *then* give rein to your emotions, otherwise you're little better than the wankers on your TV screen who're currently playing this for their own advantage, because you're allowing them to play *you*.


 
best post of the thread so far imho, very similar to what i was trying and failing miserably to get accross


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> I'll grant that it's speculation. But given the nature of the UK role in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the likely number of times any given soldier is likely to have been in a firefight, and assuming a decent level of training and professionalism, it's more likely that he hasn't killed a child than that he has. I'm not an expert of course but the majority of military and ex-military I know have never killed anyone (most of them were AGC, mind)


 
Now we're expecting people who hack heads off - and people outraged by hacked-off head - to follow _statistics_?

'S'true, though. Most soldiers never kill anyone - though IIRC the proportion who do is going up war by war.


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Was having a conversation with a mate a while back about this sort of stuff and she said something along the lines of "with all the discrimination against jews around the world it's a wonder no jewish people have done something like 9/11."


They have, King David hotel and Deir Yassin among others by just one group, Irgun. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs describes Irgun as "an underground organization" the British and many others called them terrorists.


----------



## co-op (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> youve completely misunderstood my post in that regard, i was talking abourt reports from lebanon about whats happening in syria


Fair enough I should have guessed you knew this, it didn't seem clear to me.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

happy to clarify


----------



## smokedout (May 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> Yeah, yeah, whatever. Beg the question some more, why don't you. The two lads tried to commit "suicide by cop" because they had already murdered the poor sod - and murdered him in yes, a cowardly fashion. The bravery of their charge at armed police was only the result of the path they had already set themselves on.


 
see this is the problem of using bravery as a morally loaded term, some people will say they were brave to charge at police, some to kill a squaddie, some that they were cowards to do both - no-one can win,  because no-one agrees what the word means and everyone is just dancing around the real  issue, which is actually about whether it was wrong/justifiable or not.

so although it irritates the fuck out of me when people go on about cowardly terrorists and brave coppers, id suggest its a semantic distraction probably not worth bothering with on this thread (even though i just did)


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 24, 2013)

_Did_ they actually cut off his head btw? The woman who talked to the blokes and was interviewed says she didn't see any sign of that, and the paper reports I've seen that mention it - which is not all of them, many say "hacked/stabbed to death" etc - say things like "apparently".


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> They have, King David hotel and Deir Yassin among others by just one group, Irgun. The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs describes Irgun as "an underground organization" the British and many others called them terrorists.


 

But that was to do with zionism, not religion (as such)

I think they thought they were fighting a nationalist war but not a religious/holy one if you see what I mean. whereas Islamist terrorism is much more aiming to promote religious views where as they were "just" nationalists (still cunts though). 

Baruch Goldstein was more of a religious terrorist though, and some of the Kahanist stuff, and some of the more recent plots to try and attack the dome of the rock etc


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd say you're about 100% wrong.
> As far back as I can remember (and I'm sure Sass and coley can remember even further back!  ), you're inculcated with personal security awareness. Not just when you're on base/in uniform, but 24/7, and it penetrates well enough that you've *always* got your antennae tuned for things "out of the ordinary".
> I'm not putting the onus for his death on the soldier, btw, I'm simply saying that your assumptions about his state of mind are likely to be inaccurate.
> 
> ...


 
When I joined up, which was before most of you were born, we were taught in basic training, that when you go off base on the piss, one person remains sober, and keeps an eye out for the rest. It was just after the Guildford bombings, so things were quite tense.


----------



## T & P (May 24, 2013)

On an unrelated news but one that is further going to give a hard-on to the EDL knuckle dragging brigade if confirmed, it sounds as if two passengers just tried to bring down a Pakistani Airlines plane as it was preparing to land in Manchester. Diverted to Stanstead and landed safely.



> A witness speaking in Urdu to Pakistani station Geo TV, said that two men over 6 feet tall tried to enter the pilot's cabin.
> Other witnesses say the pair made a number of threats.
> Essex Police have confirmed that two men aged 30 and 41 have been arrested on suspicion of endangerment of an aircraft after the plane landed safely at Stansted.


 http://news.sky.com/story/1095214/fighter-jets-scrambled-to-passenger-plane


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> You acknowledge that it was brave. Now maybe we are getting somewhere. Yes, it was a result of the path they had taken: the path of murder and probable death. This included the decision not to flee the scene of their gruesome murder, but to stay, give statements and wait for Plod. They had already decided to sacrifice themselves for their cause. You hate to acknowledge that they have courage, but it is obvious that they did and even you partially acknowledge it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.

Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.

Cowardly, murdering scum.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> _Did_ they actually cut off his head btw? The woman who talked to the blokes and was interviewed says she didn't see any sign of that, and the paper reports I've seen that mention it - which is not all of them, many say "hacked/stabbed to death" etc - say things like "apparently".


 
Was asking that earlier too based on same grounds as you - AFAICT they didn't succeed and whether they tried is interpretation of the hacking.


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> But that was to do with zionism, not religion (as such)
> 
> I think they thought they were fighting a nationalist war but not a religious/holy one if you see what I mean.
> 
> Baruch Goldstein was more of a religious terrorist though, and some of the Kahanist stuff


I understand your point, but they were both Jewish and Zionists were they not, I'm not sure you can separate religious terrorism from political terrorism, it is all about ideology isn't it? Every Islamist claims to be a Muslims but not every Muslims claim to be Islamist. It seems to me that Islamist philosophy is just the politicization of a religion.

Other points

A quick look across the globe and it is amazing how many "terrorists" have become leaders of their country or elected politicians, even in Brazil (not known as a hot-bed of terrorism) we have a leader who was imprisoned between 1970 and 72 as a terrorist.

The USA and other declared a "global war on terrorism" in 2001, this resulted in an international campaign where the USA went around the world plucking people they considered terrorists from any country they wanted, other would call it kidnapping, special rendition Etc.

If the USA sees the battleground as global I would expect their enemies to use the same battleground.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.
> 
> Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.
> 
> Cowardly, murdering scum.


Not keen on the rule of law then? Your posts on Ireland become so much clearer now.


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> I understand your point, but I'm not sure you can separate religious terrorism from political terrorism, it is all about ideology isn't it? Every Islamist claims to be a Muslims but not every Muslims claim to be Islamist. It seems to me that Islamist philosophy is just the politicization of a religion.
> 
> Other points
> 
> ...


 

My point is that they saw themselves as secular, they saw the jews as a nation and not a religion, whereas the recent lot are seeing it as a religion so you get people trying to attack the dome of the rock and rebuild the temple on it and justify the murder of palestinians by going on about Amalek who God commanded the jews to destroy in the bible and saying that the palestinians are the new Amalek. Whereas before it was like "we want our own country" and like a nationalist/imperialist thing, and now there's still the nationalism but with mad religious bollocks on top of it. By the way most jewish people probably don't even know that this bollocks exists. The justifications for supporting israel's actions that usually gets talked about (and they increasingly aren't seen as justified at all) are the standard ones like self defence and all the ones we're familiar with on here.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> I understand your point, but they were both Jewish and Zionists were they not, I'm not sure you can separate religious terrorism from political terrorism, it is all about ideology isn't it? Every Islamist claims to be a Muslims but not every Muslims claim to be Islamist. It seems to me that Islamist philosophy is just the politicization of a religion.
> 
> Other points
> 
> ...


 
In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> hey trees! islamic fundamentalists are nothing compared to cuts, benefits attacks etc. and how do the left protest em? by getting pissed in a car park like the edl? the point is if there are any we dont know where they are even if they did represent something more than wankers like those 2 guys and anjem choudry. as for classist criticism of EDL see this and the EDL for our criticisms on that 1. for many of us, antifascists look just like em, went to the same schools, tedious football matches and leisure wear vendors!!!


 
you're not into football though


----------



## Idris2002 (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.


 
For pity's sake, Sas. . .


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> My point is that they saw themselves as secular, they saw the jews as a nation and not a religion, whereas the recent lot are seeing it as a religion so you get people trying to attack the dome of the rock and rebuild the temple on it and justify the murder of palestinians by going on about Amalek who God commanded the jews to destroy in the bible and saying that the palestinians are the new Amalek. Whereas before it was like "we want our own country" and like a nationalist/imperialist thing, and now there's still the nationalism but with mad religious bollocks on top of it.


I have no idea what or how these people think or what motivates them. I just wanted to point out that Jewish people have been involved in terrorism, what banner one puts them under is an individual choice.



Sasaferrato said:


> In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.


I have no idea what "we" should do. I don't have a dog in the fight.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> I have no idea what or how these people think or what motivates them. I just wanted to point out that Jewish people have been involved in terrorism, what banner one puts that under is an individual choice.
> 
> I have no idea what "we" should do. I don't have a dog in the fight.


Do you not?


----------



## frogwoman (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> I have no idea what or how these people think or what motivates them. I just wanted to point out that Jewish people have been involved in terrorism, what banner one puts that under is an individual choice.
> 
> I have no idea what "we" should do. I don't have a dog in the fight.


 

yeah they have but not as a religious thing, they tried to justify their actions by saying "we want our own country, look how we're persecuted etc" ie pretty much exclusively by whats going on in the real world (although they were cunts, but their motivations were something that was half related to reality), not what it says in the bible and not by referring to religious bollocks. In the past zionism was seen as a secular thing, most of the early zionists hated religion because they saw it as too pacifist and most interpretations of it were always telling people not to fight back.

most of the early zionists would have laughed their arses off if they heard people go on about god, the temple, and the command to destroy amalek, they saw religion as a weakness holding them back not as a motivation for them to do what they were doing.


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Do you not?


Do I not what "have a dog in the fight" or "any idea of what their motivation is"?


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.
> 
> Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.
> 
> Cowardly, murdering scum.


and what about 'brave' 'soldiers' who sit thousands of miles away controlling drones to murder people?

wipe that spittle from your mouth and get a grip, 'should be given to the RRF', such a good christian aren't you


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.


 because that's worked well so far hasn't it!
jesus you're such a parody


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 24, 2013)

I know Sas doesn't think much of London but nuking it's going a bit far.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

just saw an interview with some guy on the news there who seems to have had a lucky escape . He was in the same area and was wearing combat pants and boots , his accent makes it obvious hes an immigrant , and these 2 guys followed him for a bit and then engaged him in converstaion . They were asking him questions about why he was dressed like that . Then they walked off . Lucky man by the sounds of it .


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> just saw an interview with some guy on the news there who seems to have had a lucky escape . He was in the same area and was wearing combat pants and boots , his accent makes it obvious hes an immigrant , and these 2 guys followed him for a bit and then engaged him in converstaion . They were asking him questions about why he was dressed like that . Then they walked off . Lucky man by the sounds of it .


 
What tv station did you see that on mate?


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

manny-p said:


> What tv station did you see that on mate?


 
BBC


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

mate = support our mates, all in it  together.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 24, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> you're not into football though


damn straight! its polo all the way for moi!


----------



## Pingu (May 24, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I know Sas doesn't think much of London but nuking it's going a bit far.


 

ooooh I dunno...

the plan has its merits


----------



## xes (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.
> 
> Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.
> 
> Cowardly, murdering scum.


As right as you are that this was a vile act, you can't fight violence with violence, it will just breed more of the same. And it saddens me that people can't see it. The EDL and their response, is going to victimise good honest Muslim people, folk who are just as horrified as everyone else at what has happened, prehaps even more horrified as it was done "in the name" of their religion. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The hatred and the killing has to stop somewhere man.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

Billy no mates..lol


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

xes said:


> As right as you are that this was a vile act, you can't fight violence with violence, it will just breed more of the same. And it saddens me that people can't see it. The EDL and their response, is going to victimise good honest Muslim people, folk who are just as horrified as everyone else at what has happened, prehaps even more horrified as it was done "in the name" of their religion. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The hatred and the killing has to stop somewhere man.


 
these guys wanted to start a war in england, mayhem on the streets . They definitely knew which buttons to push .


----------



## xes (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> these guys wanted to start a war in england, mayhem on the streets . They definitely knew which buttons to push .


 
Why give them the satisfaction? If this is what they want, do the opposite. Next muslim you meet, hug the fucker and tell him or her that you love them. Love is stronger than hate.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

xes said:


> Why give them the satisfaction? If this is what they want, do the opposite. Next muslim you meet, hug the fucker and tell him or her that you love them. Love is stronger than hate.


 
like the sentiment but i honestly wouldnt advise walking up to women in burkhas and hugging them . Or muslim men either . Seriously..please dont do that .


----------



## manny-p (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> mate = support our mates, all in it together.


 
Hey lad. Still pissed off are we?


----------



## xes (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> like the sentiment but i honestly wouldnt advise walking up to women in burkhas and hugging them . Or muslim men either . Seriously..please dont do that .


I've never been one to take advise of others. Will let you know how tonite pans out


----------



## Spymaster (May 24, 2013)

xes said:


> I've never been one to take advise of others. Will let you know how tonite pans out


 
Don't forget to slip the tongue in.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> They are cowards. Two to one, run your victim over, then attack an unarmed man with bladed weapons. Vile cowardice.
> 
> *Personally, when they are well again, they should be given to then RRF to 'play' with. Let them feel what the poor bastard they murdered felt like.*
> 
> Cowardly, murdering scum.


 
Which would, of course, be brave as fuck and not at all cowardly.

Does it really matter whether they were brave or cowardly? Either way they're brutal, murdering scumbags.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

xes said:


> I've never been one to take advise of others. Will let you know how tonite pans out


 
ill  keep an eye on the news


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> In which case, should we not be carrying their battle back to them? We have the capacity to render any country's capital to a glowing ruin.


 
You really are a vile cunt aren't you? I know, let's show the terrorists how much better we are than them - by being even bigger indescriminate mass murdering nutjobs than they are. That'll work. And definitely wouldn't result in reprisals - not at all!


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

Idris2002 said:


> For pity's sake, Sas. . .


 
I was being ironic, or perhaps sarcastic. The fallout would land on us, so I'm not advocating nuclear war.


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Which would, of course, be brave as fuck and not at all cowardly.
> 
> Does it really matter whether they were brave or cowardly? Either way they're brutal, murdering scumbags.


 
The amount of effort that always goes into persuading us that such attackers were cowardly suggests that some people - not least newspaper leader writers - think it matters.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Do you not?[/
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

laptop said:


> The amount of effort that always goes into persuading us that such attackers were cowardly suggests that some people - not least newspaper leader writers - think it matters.


 The newspaper writers also appear to think David Beckham's haircut is important though.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

xes said:


> As right as you are that this was a vile act, you can't fight violence with violence, it will just breed more of the same. And it saddens me that people can't see it. The EDL and their response, is going to victimise good honest Muslim people, folk who are just as horrified as everyone else at what has happened, prehaps even more horrified as it was done "in the name" of their religion. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. The hatred and the killing has to stop somewhere man.


 
Of course it has.

How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?

The fanatics are not going to listen to reason, and although small in number, can wreak substantial havoc, as has been demonstrated on both sides of the pond.

Unless there is help from within the Muslim community, identifying and stopping these people is impossible.

There is a huge problem here, which is that a small number of people, working in isolated cells can be undetectable, until something happens. Manufacturing a car bomb is relatively simple. I would expect that to happen. (It has been tried, but due to 'technical difficulties', thankfully none has exploded.)

As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> just saw an interview with some guy on the news there who seems to have had a lucky escape . He was in the same area and was wearing combat pants and boots , his accent makes it obvious hes an immigrant , and these 2 guys followed him for a bit and then engaged him in converstaion . They were asking him questions about why he was dressed like that . Then they walked off . Lucky man by the sounds of it .


Yeah, and they talked to a couple of neighbours about that who said it sounded like "complete bollocks"


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> You really are a vile cunt aren't you? I know, let's show the terrorists how much better we are than them - by being even bigger indescriminate mass murdering nutjobs than they are. That'll work. And definitely wouldn't result in reprisals - not at all!


 
You are an utter fucking idiot. Now fuck off.


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Of course it has.
> 
> How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?
> 
> ...


so you don't want them roughed up by squaddies now?


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> You are an utter fucking idiot. Now fuck off.


no YOU fuck off


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> You are an utter fucking idiot. Now fuck off.


 
Yeah sorry, I should have realised you were being 'ironic'. Funny joke, that. Telling that the reason you give for _not _nuking them is to do with fallout blowing over here though.

Can't be good for your health getting wound up like that by the way, you'll give yourself an ulcer.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Of course it has.
> 
> How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?
> 
> ...


 
Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.


I think it is something some people are going to have to live with, but I don't believe it is insurmountable. If and when there is a will to find a solution one will be found.


----------



## JimW (May 24, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yeah, and they talked to a couple of neighbours about that who said it sounded like "complete bollocks"


 
I was arguing about how far they went to target the attack on another forum so checked out this story thinking it would make good evidence. Checked out the Mail's story and it did strike you as someone taking the chance to grab a moment in the spotlight - some event from two months ago where they looked at him funny because of his kegs!


----------



## thedockerslad (May 24, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm guessing you don't get a lot of exposure to irony?


 
Oh we remember him jumping up and down and throwing his dummy out because he got called lad.


----------



## dylanredefined (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Which would, of course, be brave as fuck and not at all cowardly.
> 
> Does it really matter whether they were brave or cowardly? Either way they're brutal, murdering scumbags.


 If they were cowardly you could scare them off. Supposedly PIRA were professional so if your security was good they would notice that and pick on someone else. As they wanted to live to fight another day. This lot don't care if they live or die.


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

According to the standard they met at Greenwich Uni, which makes me wonder whether one or both of them studied at the old Island Site there or lived in Thomas Spencer Halls, which would make them familiar with the barracks.


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

Also, the standard reports that one of them went to secondary school in Kidbrooke, as did the shoe bomber fella (Richard Reid?) albeit he attended Thomas Tallis.  It would be quite a coincidence if two islamist terrorists grew up in the same area and didn't know each other.


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 24, 2013)

I wonder how they prepared themselves for this. 

When the same thing happened to Daniel Pearl all those years ago, I thought a lot about what it would have been like. It is not like shooting someone. It is not even like guillotining someone. It would be an intensely kind of, intimate experience. You would have to be close. It wouldn't be quick. 

It is a big leap to go from preaching hate to actually practicing it (or is it?)

I don't know. I wonder the same about other people like Anders Behring Brevik. I wonder what they think about the actual experience. Do they regret the act itself, but justify it with whatever they believe in? Do they think about it at all later on? 

I know its a question that can never really be answered. I just wonder.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

JimW said:


> I was arguing about how far they went to target the attack on another forum so checked out this story thinking it would make good evidence. Checked out the Mail's story and it did strike you as someone taking the chance to grab a moment in the spotlight - some event from two months ago where they looked at him funny because of his kegs!


Yep. And the other reason it's probably bollocks is because there are *so* many nationalities, skin colours, migrant v residential, types of clothing, religions, etc that you can't make *any* assumptions on the basis of combat trousers. If they'd targeted and attacked that guy it could have turned out he was a Muslim hailing from the Middle East. Complete bollocks story.


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Also, the standard reports that one of them went to secondary school in Kidbrooke, as did the shoe bomber fella (Richard Reid?) albeit he attended Thomas Tallis. It would be quite a coincidence if two islamist terrorists grew up in the same area and didn't know each other.


 
Not necessarily.

If I'd grown up (or failed to grow up) in Kidbrooke I'd be looking for an excuse to fuck shit up...


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> If they were cowardly you could scare them off. Supposedly PIRA were professional so if your security was good they would notice that and pick on someone else. As they wanted to live to fight another day. This lot don't care if they live or die.


 
Interesting point. In that respect it makes them harder to tackle I suppose, but then again members of republican paramilitary groups would, I imagine, generally have carried out several attacks before their terrorist careers were over so a small number of people could inflict much more damage over a longer period of time. These sorts need to recruit new 'soldiers' for every attack. Not sure where I'm going with that one...

That said, I think this is a point you could make without the need to use morally charged and contested terms like 'bravery' and 'cowardice'.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

dylanredefined said:


> If they were cowardly you could scare them off. Supposedly PIRA were professional so if your security was good they would notice that and pick on someone else. As they wanted to live to fight another day. This lot don't care if they live or die.


 
if you look at what happened in that massarene attack recently they didnt even give a fuck about security despite there being an armed guard in a post directly overlooking the gate . They just walked up to a bunch of squaddies at almost point blank range and the security shit itself and hit the deck.

Hundreds of these woolwich type guys will be returning from syria in the coming weeks, months and years, deeply radicalised and very experienced . And most likely with contacts for modern equipment . Although foetus face may well supply plenty of it .

 Massarene type scenarios could well start playing out in Britian . And in all honesty I think that could well be a feature of your life for a very long time to come as your foreign policy is very unlikely to change any time soon . And I believe that more than anything is going to be the driving force for this stuff .

In the 19th century you had wave upon wave of Irish immigrants and for generations thereon in you had fenian dynamiting and assassination outrages . Special branch had to be created as a result . More waves of immigration and you had IRA units of second and third generation carrying out bombings and assassinations, arms raids etc in virtually every decade of the 2oth century from 1916 onwards . And networks of subsersives even before that . And thats still capable of spluttering on and reigniting again .

Now you face the same type of phenomenon emerging from other influxes of immigrants and they play by a different set of rules . I honestly dont think this type of thing is going to go away , it could well be generational .


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Interesting point. In that respect it makes them harder to tackle I suppose, but then again members of republican paramilitary groups would, I imagine, generally have carried out several attacks before their terrorist careers were over so a small number of people could inflict much more damage over a longer period of time. These sorts need to recruit new 'soldiers' for every attack. Not sure where I'm going with that one...


 
and what if they just change tactics, which could well happen .


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> and what if they just change tactics, which could well happen .


 
Then it changes, obviously. But if they went to a more IRA-like strategy they'd also lose the advantages dylanredefined described. But we can only really look at what they're doing now unless we have information to suggest a change in tactics is in the pipeline can't we?

I think the whole martyr's death thing, with the virgins and whatnot, is an important part of the motivation though, even if its importance is often exaggerated and so this might stop that kind of change taking place, or at least shape what form that change might take.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Then it changes, obviously. But that's hardly a revelation is it? We can only really look at what they're doing now unless we have information to suggest a change in tactics is in the pipeline.
> 
> I think the whole martyr's death thing, with the virgins and whatnot, is an important part of the motivation though, even if its importance is often exaggerated.


 

i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .

Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .

I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

laptop said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> If I'd grown up (or failed to grow up) in Kidbrooke I'd be looking for an excuse to fuck shit up...


 
I was down that way last year, the Ferrier is mostly gone now, the new flats look nice but I dont know whether it's like the Haygate and most of the old residents wont be coming back.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Of course it has.
> 
> How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?
> 
> ...


As has been mentioned bombs and bomb making are likely to flag up on the system whereas this type of attack needs no preparation, is likely so succeed because it comes out of nowhere,the worst thing is the instant news and notoriety it generates. Hope I'm wrong but I suspect we are going to see more of this.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .
> 
> Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .
> 
> I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .


What happens after identification?


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What happens after identification?


 
im not 100 percent sure as im not a muslim or overly familiar with their structures of radicalisation. I could only specualte .
Id imagine that after identifying with the victims of a war theres a desire to take a side in that war, and even play a role within it .


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> As has been mentioned bombs and bomb making are likely to flag up on the system whereas this type of attack needs no preparation, is likely so succeed because it comes out of nowhere,the worst thing is the instant news and notoriety it generates. Hope I'm wrong but I suspect we are going to see more of this.


It makes one wonder when the first Brit will be killed by weapons supplied by the British government to some very doggie groups right now. It would seem that some Americans have been killed in Libya by weapons supplied to opposition groups by the USA.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .
> 
> Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .


 
I don't disagree with any of that really - completely agree that in general the specifically Islamic part of Islamic terrorism is exaggerated in its importance. But I think with attacks like this one it's slightly different from Hexbollah - they're actually on the ground in Lebanon - their recruits are those suffering at the hands of the enemy. That's not the case with these guys and I think you may well find that their faith played a much bigger role than it might in Lebanon.

It's all speculation anyway - you can only really analyse the way they are working - otherwise you'd have to take into account a potentially infinite number of possible strategic changes.



Casually Red said:


> I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .


 
I agree that that stuff is overplayed - I even mentioned in that post that it's often exaggerated. But it's daft and simplistic to then make the leap to assuming it doesn't matter at all.

And you're wrong when you say nobody is talking about tackling that at source - people have done just that on this thread. Me for a start:


SpineyNorman said:


> Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> im not 100 percent sure as im not a muslim or overly familiar with their structures of radicalisation. I could only specualte .
> Id imagine that after identifying with the victims of a war theres a desire to take a side in that war, and even play a role within it .


What do we (people who push pro w/c politics) do next? Not what the state does.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i dont think so . First of all i think the primary motivation is a genuine anger at what the imperialist countries are actually doing to their fellow muslims . I think the identification with them and the furious anger at their being bombed and occupied is where it all starts . We are having a debate on another thread as to whether or not the religious extremism is more a badge of cultural identity than the motivation for the actions . I think a lot of the analysis is back to front on this .
> 
> Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics . And that Lebanon is so small compared to Israel and the west .
> 
> I think that stuff is overplayed . Even communists and the like used to launch suicide attacks without any religious belief to call on . Your overlooking real anger about whats going on in the world and real identification with those who are experiencing utterly horrific things accross the world . I think thats were the motivation for these horrendous deeds often starts, with other horrendous deeds committed by the civilised west . And nobody is talking about tackling that at source , when i believe its the fuel for the fire .


Misses entirely any domestic input, entirely concentrated on overseas. No idea idea of how past radicalisation took place in a different context, one where people were disciplined by the imposed solidarity of work and education, nothing about the destruction of compact housing - no, only british foreign policy. Only your political needs.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> It makes one wonder when the first Brit will be killed by weapons supplied by the British government to some very *doggie* groups right now. It would seem that some Americans have been killed in Libya by weapons supplied to opposition groups by the USA.


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What do we (people who push pro w/c politics) do next?


You are well known in these parts for pushing w/c politics, what do you think the w/c do next?


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Misses entirely any domestic input, entirely concentrated on overseas. No idea idea of how past radicalisation took place in a different context, one where people were disciplined by the imposed solidarity of work and education, nothing about the destruction of compact housing - no, only british foreign policy. Only your political needs.


 
im not writing a fucking thesis . Its just one point about an issue thats overlooked, not an entire fucking political theory .

you always have to be the smartest fucking communist in the class .


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> im not writing a fucking thesis . Its just one point about an issue thats overlooked, not an entire fucking political theory .


It was supposed to be pretty comprehensive though. It's not hard to mention these other things. If you can see them that is.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What do we (people who push pro w/c politics) do next? Not what the state does.


 
we elect you fucking leader and then you tell us what we should do, hopefully not by the medium of a cryptic crossword


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

> It was supposed to be pretty comprehensive though.


 
what was..and who said so


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> we elect you fucking leader and then you tell us what we should do, hopefully not by the medium of a cryptic crossword


As soon as he's asked a question to which 'the brits' isn't the answer he is stuck.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> As has been mentioned bombs and bomb making are likely to flag up on the system whereas this type of attack needs no preparation, is likely so succeed because it comes out of nowhere,the worst thing is the instant news and notoriety it generates. Hope I'm wrong but I suspect we are going to see more of this.


 
A few cwt of ammonium nitrate, sparked by a single stick of blasting gelignite, bingo, you have a car bomb. We used ammonium nitrate as a commercial explosive, still do in fact. It came in a granular form, that you used to pack cracked rock, where the gelignite charge had not quite done the job. Amminol is the trade name.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Back in the late 70s and early 80s Hezbollah for example used to launch mass wave suicide attacks with all that martyr stuff . But later on they adapted to different tactics, only using the suicide option when the target was utterly essential and there was no other way of doing it . They would very rarely ever do that now , particularly as they invest so much time and effort in military training and tactics .


 
Your chronology is incorrect here. Hezbollah didn't exist properly until 1982, when it was formed as a second (heavily Iran-inspired and funded) Shiite movement focused around attacking Western UN and Israeli soldiers and installations, not doing what Amal did which was fighting other Sunni/Druze/Christian militia as part of a civil war.

Its suicide bombers that carry out attacks between 1983-86 are nearly all part of the Shiite population, (recently forced by IDF or SLA out of their southern Lebanon rural homes), in the slums of Trablus, Beirut and Bekaa valley. 

Spectacular attacks were meant to nudge people away from Amal to Hezbollah, since the latter 'could get things done' - Hezbollah did overrely on the suicide bombers after the US withdrawal believing that similar tactics would work against internal opponents.

It's a different kind of approach what's been going on with these terror plots. The manner of the mutilating execution will edge away Islamist sympathisers who believe it is up to God to punish after an enemy has been killed.

Even the Taliban in 2009 started instituting new rules about prisoners and using no torture or unusual methods of death against captives whether grade A enemy or collaborators. I can only see the event as an own goal from their perspective.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.


 
And you, personally, are going to achieve this... how, exactly?

If you can turn the clock back twenty years, you are indeed remarkable.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> what was..and who said so


You, surely - unless you deliberately gave a partial account of what motivates people to do this and why/how people are produced that try it. If you did, why cut out what i mentioned?


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

ddraig said:


> no YOU fuck off


 

<Sigh.>


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> And you, personally, are going to achieve this... how, exactly?
> 
> If you can turn the clock back twenty years, you are indeed remarkable.


 
Where did I, personally, say I could do this? And why would time travel be necessary?

I think you should probably go and have a bit of a nap or something.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

How





SpineyNorman said:


> Surely the question then becomes, how do we secure this help from within the 'muslim community'? One possible way might be to stop bombing the shit out of their country of origin, where many still have family.
> These two came from the UK as did the tube bombers,and when we pull out of Afghanistan, we will all be able to relax?


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> <Sigh.>


all spittled out?


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

By way of contrast on political needs, _pro-Iraq war, pro-US collaboration_ David Lammy says that British military operations _are_ irrelevant, effectively saying it's just random that they chose an off-duty soldier they are crazed masculinity-hunters:




> Similarly, the suggestion that the murder was a direct consequence of British foreign policy is superficially compelling – some even tried to suggest to me that my vote in favour of the invasion of Iraq contributed to James' death – but now that British troops have left Basra and are due to leave the dusty plains of Helmand next year, who truly believes this will spell the end of attacks like these? And even if they could, what sovereign nation can possibly have its foreign affairs dictated to by a violent minority?
> We need to start by looking closer to home. There is no escaping the fact that terrorist attacks have almost exclusively been led and executed by young men. Males isolated from the rest of society, fixated by a binary world view where there is only faith and infidelity. But these profoundly alienated young men are not only to be found in Britain's Muslim communities – vulnerable males looking to fill a vacuum in a life absent of camaraderie and purpose are common to all ethnicities.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> A few cwt of ammonium nitrate, sparked by a single stick of blasting gelignite, bingo, you have a car bomb. We used ammonium nitrate as a commercial explosive, still do in fact. It came in a granular form, that you used to pack cracked rock, where the gelignite charge had not quite done the job. Amminol is the trade name.


Used all the time just over the road, bliddy open casts, but trying getting your hands on large amounts of explosives ingredients isn't easy these days,in fact it's this which led to at least a couple off attempts being thwarted.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> How


 
Sort your formating out mate - can't tell what's been quoted and what you've said yourself.

But if you're saying what I think you're saying then I doubt it would get much worse - and 'we' are going to have to leave at some point. If we follow your logic then 'we' can never end the occupation, which will lead to constant escalation of terrorist attacks.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> I think it is something some people are going to have to live with, but I don't believe it is insurmountable. If and when there is a will to find a solution one will be found.


 
Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq. The government of Pakistan; leaving aside the fact that their intelligence services leak like a sieve; does not have control of the North of the country, and haven't had since the inception of the nation. The might of the British Empire didn't either.

Every middle eastern country that has fragmented is spawning yet another radical Islamist group. Al Queda, despite its decapitation appears to thrive.

I thought to myself earlier, with absolute power,and no conscience, what would I do to rid Britain of this. I cannot think of a single solution that would have a chance of working, no matter how brutal. The answer I feel, will come from within the Muslim community. When we get to the point, where that community feel more affinity for Britain than for the Muslim faith and their 'parent' country, the situation will change.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> As soon as he's asked a question to which 'the brits' isn't the answer he is stuck.


 

i dont live in england, i dont have a handle on the dynamics of all the aspects of its society . I know next to fuck all about its leftist groups and often give even less of fuck although I wish all progressives well. I dont even come from an industrialised or post industrial society. You know this very well . All that theory is of no use to me so I dont waste my time obsessing with it . Learning chinese would be more use.
What I do have a bit of a handle on though is the cause and effect of various reactions to armed imperialism, about the raw emotions that evokes among those who for one reason or another identify strongly with its victims . And how that anger and frustration and desire to hit back can send very ordinary non violent people down paths were all sorts of things become possible . Because thats the stuff that happened in my society and I can see similar things happening now .

So when I see things I recognise I point to elements of cause and effect and try and analyse and discuss that as opposed to the entire dynamics of a society I dont live in, often dont understand to a degree I could start pontificating to others on and which frankly are of little use to me as I dont live there . But which nonthless interest me so Ill add my two cents worth if thats alright to you .

Which you know . But it would be an absolute catastrophe if, god forbid, you missed an opportunity to sound clever . Preferably with added crypticism, as an affectation .


----------



## thedockerslad (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> You are well known in these parts for pushing w/c politics, what do you think the w/c do next?


 
The proletariat awaits butchersaprons


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?


 
And is he aware of the offence of possessing information useful to a terrorist?


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Sort your formating out mate - can't tell what's been quoted and what you've said yourself.
> 
> But if you're saying what I think you're saying then I doubt it would get much worse - and 'we' are going to have to leave at some point. If we follow your logic then 'we' can never end the occupation, which will lead to constant escalation of terrorist attacks.



We are out of Iraq,we have largely ceased combat ops in Afghanistan, what were these two fanatics on about,when going on about us "leaving their lands"?


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?


 
Yes. As could anyone who has handled explosives as part of their job.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq.


 
No, it's not, neoliberal soft Islamism is, as in Iraq, Turkey, Indonesia, Egypt, Tunisia and Libya. Syria is in a state of massive flux and confusion and absolute ascendancy of 'radical Islam' is a fact only if you're Mystic Meg.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> We are out of Iraq,we have largely ceased combat ops in Afghanistan, what were these two fanatics on about,when going on about us "leaving their lands"?


 
'We' still have troops on the ground in those countries and more. Including peacekeeping (lol). And in foreign policy terms 'we're' now associated with whatever the US is doing so you can add in drone attacks etc. Pulling out and publicly disassociating 'ourselves' from what the yanks are doing might be a good start.


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i dont live in england, i dont have a handle on the dynamics of all the aspects of its society . I know next to fuck all about its leftist groups and often give even less of fuck although I wish all progressives well. I dont even come from an industrialised or post industrial society. You know this very well . All that theory is of no use to me so I dont waste my time obsessing with it . Learning chinese would be more use.
> What I do have a bit of a handle on though is the cause and effect of various reactions to armed imperialism, about the raw emotions that evokes among those who for one reason or another identify strongly with its victims . And how that anger and frustration and desire to hit back can send very ordinary non violent people down paths were all sorts of things become possible . Because thats the stuff that happened in my society and I can see similar things happening now .
> 
> So when I see things I recognise I point to elements of cause and effect and try and analyse and discuss that as opposed to the entire dynamics of a society I dont live in, often dont understand to a degree I could start pontificating to others on and which frankly are of little use to me as I dont live there . But which nonthless interest me so Ill add my two cents worth if thats alright to you .
> ...



And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Yes. As could anyone who has handled explosives as part of their job.


 
Most of them don't post it on urban though


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

ddraig said:


> all spittled out?


 
You flatter yourself, if you consider yourself worthy of my spittle.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?


 
They were mad but not stupid?


----------



## framed (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?


 


laptop said:


> And is he aware of the offence of possessing information useful to a terrorist?


 
...that was rather sporting of him.


----------



## cantsin (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> We are out of Iraq,we have largely ceased combat ops in Afghanistan, what were these two fanatics on about,when going on about us "leaving their lands"?


 

um, so if we were still there, in full ....???


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> 'We' still have troops on the ground in those countries and more. Including peacekeeping (lol). And in foreign policy terms 'we're' now associated with whatever the US is doing so you can add in drone attacks etc. Pulling out and publicly disassociating 'ourselves' from what the yanks are doing might be a good start.




Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq. The government of Pakistan; leaving aside the fact that their intelligence services leak like a sieve; does not have control of the North of the country, and haven't had since the inception of the nation. The might of the British Empire didn't either.
> 
> Every middle eastern country that has fragmented is spawning yet another radical Islamist group. Al Queda, despite its decapitation appears to thrive.
> 
> I thought to myself earlier, with absolute power,and no conscience, what would I do to rid Britain of this. I cannot think of a single solution that would have a chance of working, no matter how brutal. The answer I feel, will come from within the Muslim community. When we get to the point, where that community feel more affinity for Britain than for the Muslim faith and their 'parent' country, the situation will change.


 
the muslim community leaders and the majority of them can condemn extremism till they are blue in the face . But everytime a western missile or bomb falls on a pakistani, afghan  or arab village then youll have muslims in Britian and elsewhere who wont be paying much heed to the advice of those calling for muslims to accept the western priciples of non violence , respect for the innocent, peace and tolerance . Because thats not the example the mainstream western society is setting to them .

Your own country sent a task force to the other end of the globe over a couple of lumps of rock and a few hundred inbreds because your flag was pulled down . Why youd expect other people to look at the world any differently will always be a mystery to me .


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i dont live in england, i dont have a handle on the dynamics of all the aspects of its society . I know next to fuck all about its leftist groups and often give even less of fuck although I wish all progressives well. I dont even come from an industrialised or post industrial society. You know this very well . All that theory is of no use to me so I dont waste my time obsessing with it . Learning chinese would be more use.
> What I do have a bit of a handle on though is the cause and effect of various reactions to armed imperialism, about the raw emotions that evokes among those who for one reason or another identify strongly with its victims . And how that anger and frustration and desire to hit back can send very ordinary non violent people down paths were all sorts of things become possible . Because thats the stuff that happened in my society and I can see similar things happening now .
> 
> So when I see things I recognise I point to elements of cause and effect and try and analyse and discuss that as opposed to the entire dynamics of a society I dont live in, often dont understand to a degree I could start pontificating to others on and which frankly are of little use to me as I dont live there . But which nonthless interest me so Ill add my two cents worth if thats alright to you .
> ...


All that is fair enough , no probs at all (disagreements aside) it says that what you posted earlier was a response to events that you had seen mirrored elsewhere, these events being seen only through the lens of British state (foreign) policy and how they effected communities that you know. No problems so far, it's a sensible political argument. But why the closure at that point? That's why i brought up the rest of it. To be political you need the whole of it - not to see or insist on the whole leads you to dead end politics that can only and will only see british foreign policy as sole drivers. Which is to miss at least half of what happened here - which was what you were trying to answer.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.


 
put this on another thread but it might be relevant to an extent

http://www.fortnight.org/oruairc429.html


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

cantsin said:


> um, so if we were still there, in full ....???


Aye, so if we were to withdraw tomorrow it wouldn't make a happerthworth of difference, the people doing the radicalisation will just need to point to our history to generate justification?


----------



## Spymaster (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> Your own country sent a task force to the other end of the globe over a couple of lumps of rock ....


 
Quite right too.


----------



## felixthecat (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Has sass just posted a bomb making recipe and given clues as to the trade names of the necessary ingredients?


 
Thought everyone knew this after Oklahoma City! Most country dwellers also know it - farmers use the same for blowing tree stumps out of field so they don't get in the way of the machinery.

Its no big secret.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

CR, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the one thing that regularly annoys me about your posts is your habit of saying 'you' as in 'you Brits', and 'your'. That's fine when you're talking about moaning about the weather or being ironic too much or that kind of thing, but it doesn't work when you're talking about politics.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> All that is fair enough , no probs at all (disagreements aside) it says that what you posted earlier was a response to events that you had seen mirrored elsewhere, these events being seen only through the lens of British state (foreign) policy and how they effected communities that you know. No problems so far, it's a sensible political argument. But why the closure at that point? That's why i brought up the rest of it. To be political you need the whole of it - not to see or insist on the whole leads you to dead end politics that can only and will only see british foreign policy as drivers. Which is to miss at least half of what happened here - which was what you were trying to answer.


 
i dont engage in closure, when it comes to stuff im not knowlegable enough on I take the sensible option and shut my mouth and listen to what others say and analyse that instead of coming out with some half baked _solution_ i dont  properly understand.

Its one of the reasons  I visit this site, to try and understand better the political and social dynamics at work in Britain . That and the craic .


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> CR, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the one thing that regularly annoys me about your posts is your habit of saying 'you' as in 'you Brits', and 'your'. That's fine when you're talking about moaning about the weather or being ironic too much or that kind of thing, but it doesn't work when you're talking about politics.


It fits entirely with his politics.To change it would would be dilute it so liberals can pretend they are in the nice IRA.


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Worldwide, radical Islam is on the ascendancy. Look at the situation in Syria, and also in Iraq. The government of Pakistan; leaving aside the fact that their intelligence services leak like a sieve; does not have control of the North of the country, and haven't had since the inception of the nation. The might of the British Empire didn't either.
> 
> Every middle eastern country that has fragmented is spawning yet another radical Islamist group. Al Queda, despite its decapitation appears to thrive.
> 
> I thought to myself earlier, with absolute power,and no conscience, what would I do to rid Britain of this. I cannot think of a single solution that would have a chance of working, no matter how brutal. The answer I feel, will come from within the Muslim community. When we get to the point, where that community feel more affinity for Britain than for the Muslim faith and their 'parent' country, the situation will change.


If you are looking at it from a "rid Britain" view, you will not find an answer. There is a global war on terrorism and Britain is part of that war. This killing has brought the war onto the streets of the UK in a very brutal fashion, the people who planned this action have achieved what they wanted, they have raised the issue to the top of the agenda across the world, not only with media coverage but also political coverage.

The IRA did the same when they took their war to the mainland UK and forced it to the top of the agenda, there is now peace in N.I I believe.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 24, 2013)

ddraig said:


> all spittled out?


 
It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?

You're utterly preposterous, man.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> CR, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the one thing that regularly annoys me about your posts is your habit of saying 'you' as in 'you Brits', and 'your'. That's fine when you're talking about moaning about the weather or being ironic too much or that kind of thing, but it doesn't work when you're talking about politics.


 

fair enough, i understand that and i do try not to . But youll notice that I usually do that in response to someone who says _we . _But ill check my privilege a bit more carefully in future .


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i dont engage in closure, when it comes to stuff im not knowlegable enough on I take the sensible option and shut my mouth and listen to what others say and analyse that instead of coming out with some half baked _solution_ i dont properly understand.
> 
> Its one of the reasons I visit this site, to try and understand better the political and social dynamics at work in Britain . That and the craic .


 

Right so we're on the same page, you wasn't closing it off there and the stuff i posted can/should be added to yours?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> But ill check my privilege a bit more carefully in future .


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Aye, so if we were to withdraw tomorrow it wouldn't make a happerthworth of difference, the people doing the radicalisation will just need to point to our history to generate justification?


 
Yep. That was the point I was making to Spiny, which he didn't get. The timeline goes back twenty, or more, years. As regards radicalisation, the moment Richard the Lionheart got on his horse...


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

felixthecat said:


> Thought everyone knew this after Oklahoma City! Most country dwellers also know it - farmers use the same for blowing tree stumps out of field so they don't get in the way of the machinery.
> 
> Its no big secret.


 
The IRA were extensive users also.


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?
> 
> You're utterly preposterous, man.


 no  no


----------



## laptop (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> the nice IRA.


 
How did I miss this split?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?
> 
> You're utterly preposterous, man.


The english made him fall off his bike once by playing one of the best tests ever in cardiff. Really.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

possibly facile point 

butchersapron, you're castigating CR for closure after pointing out british foreign policy.
how can we avoid dead end politics over this? 
surely it's possibly to attack british foreign policy _and_ look at the domestic realities at the same time?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> possibly facile point
> 
> butchersapron, you're castigating CR for closure after pointing out british foreign policy.
> how can we avoid dead end politics over this?
> surely it's possibly to attack british foreign policy _and_ look at the domestic realities at the same time?


That's my point young man. It wasn't one/other.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Quite right too.


 
Indeed. We don't ban Argentinian Restaurants though, or blame every Argentinian for the invasion. In fact, rather than in the occasional 'gung ho' remembrance, we have pretty much forgotten about it.


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

do grow up

if you're referring to where i got hit by a taxi and knocked off in broad daylight when it was my right of way and my legs are still bad from it, then great dig! well done


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.


 
Yeah I do think the motivations are different, though linked in some ways. But having a significant part of the Muslim population with serious grievances against British foreign policy must make it easier for them to hide - just like if the IRA hadn't had so much support among Catholics in NI it would have been easier to deal with them - for various reasons. They might feel more inclined to help them hide, or at least less inclined to inform on them. And I dare say there are some who may express support online etc for these actions but who would never do them (and if they saw it up close would likely be as disgusted as anyone else) - absent these grievances that kind of 'noise' would surely be reduced.

I'm just thinking out loud now by the way, this is probably full of holes.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> If you are looking at it from a "rid Britain" view, you will not find an answer. There is a global war on terrorism and Britain is part of that war. This killing has brought the war onto the streets of the UK in a very brutal fashion, the people who planned this action have achieved what they wanted, they have raised the issue to the top of the agenda across the world, not only with media coverage but also political coverage.
> 
> The IRA did the same when they took their war to the mainland UK and forced it to the top of the agenda, there is now peace in N.I I believe.


 
Sort of.

Edited to add:

So, your conclusion is? What do you think that radical Islam will 'settle' for? 50% of the seats... oops sorry, that is 30% for the Shia and 20% for the Sunni... Even within the faith itself there is murderous infighting. The use of suicide bombers in Iraq for example. These attacks are not against the west, they are against fellow Muslims of the wrong stripe.

Trying to get a handle on this, seems to make herding cats a sinecure.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

ddraig said:


> do grow up
> 
> if you're referring to where i got hit by a taxi and knocked off in broad daylight when it was my right of way and my legs are still bad from it, then great dig! well done


You know that i wasn't - why pretend that you thought that i was? I've never even heard of your taxi crash - i was on about your cycle path moaning when england played. But then you knew that didn't you?


----------



## rioted (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.


Are you halfway to understanding why home grown squaddies are out in Iraq, Afghanistan killing/bombing people?


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You know that i wasn't - why pretend that you thought that i was? I've never even heard of your taxi crash - i was on about your cycle path moaning when england played.


i wasn't responding to you and have had no issue with you in this thread so no idea why you appear to have a problem


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

This wasn't a reply to my post? OK, no worries (it _could_ be though  )



> do grow up
> 
> if you're referring to where i got hit by a taxi and knocked off in broad daylight when it was my right of way and my legs are still bad from it, then great dig! well done


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> put this on another thread but it might be relevant to an extent
> 
> http://www.fortnight.org/oruairc429.html


Raises some interesting points esp. the majority of Irish people didn't get involved with republicanism, and the "supranational Irish identity" replace that with " the supra fervent Muslim convert" perhaps.
One thing is striking, the absence of religion in the article.


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Raises some interesting points esp. the majority of Irish people didn't get involved with republicanism, and the "supranational Irish identity" replace that with " the supra fervent Muslim convert" perhaps.
> One thing is striking, the absence of religion in the article.


 
The convert is always the most eager.


----------



## ddraig (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This wasn't a reply to my post? OK, no worries (it _could_ be though  )


no it was a reply to this one from the charming frances


Frances Lengel said:


> It's not as if you've made a single constructive post. And it seems like every time I look at the cycle commute thread, you're always falling off your bike - What's going on with that?
> 
> You're utterly preposterous, man.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Yep. That was the point I was making to Spiny, which he didn't get. The timeline goes back twenty, or more, years. As regards radicalisation, the moment Richard the Lionheart got on his horse...


 
I got it alright - it's just an idiotic argument. By that logic 'we' should never leave. And violence taking place right now resonates far more strongly than historic violence - in fact it's violence that's happening now that makes historic violence important and relevant.

In reality the longer 'we' are there the worse it will get.

It's spiney by the way.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> The convert is always the most eager.


 

Bit over eager in this case.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's my point young man. It wasn't one/other.


 
I did put a disclaimer in the first line. 

To what extent does ethnicisation of otherwise class issues contribute?
> Immigrant (working-)class-based self-identification is smothered under
i. bland integrationism 'do as well we can/make them jealous' of the older middle-class sector and
ii. the sense that 'white/indigenous and non-white/immigrant working-class people can't know the other side's difficulties'.

I'm taking both sides here as working-class 'combatants' - one a machine-gunner off-duty rotas determined from above, the other a machete warrior with their own rota.
Ideally we want to have both sides participate into a working-class movement - is that fair?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> I did put a disclaimer in the first line.
> 
> To what extent does ethnicisation of otherwise class issues contribute?
> > Immigrant (working-)class-based self-identification is smothered under
> ...


Ideally yeah -and for each to recognise their interest in the other. Don't ask me how


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I got it alright - it's just an idiotic argument. By that logic 'we' should never leave. And violence taking place right now resonates far more strongly than historic violence - in fact it's violence that's happening now that makes historic violence important and relevant.
> 
> In reality the longer 'we' are there the worse it will get.
> 
> It's spiney by the way.


 Apologies for the missing 'e'.

The point really, is that there is nothing we can do to ameliorate the cause. You cannot roll back time. It makes no odds whether we bring our troops home tomorrow or next century. ' The moving finger writes... '. On that basis, then the sooner we get our troops out, the better.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Apologies for the missing 'e'.
> 
> The point really, is that there is nothing we can do to ameliorate the cause. You cannot roll back time. It makes no odds whether we bring our troops home tomorrow or next century. ' The moving finger writes... '. On that basis, then *the sooner we get our troops out, the better.*


 
Which is all I was saying. When the violence stops the historic violence becomes less important. It's not like flicking a switch - it's not ever going to be that simple - but there's a reason why Richard the Lionheart motivates people in the Muslim world in a way that it didn't before the second world war.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?


 
well the hungerstrikes proved that the issue of certain death and martyrdom isnt entirely cultural, even the Iranians were taken aback in 81 and sent reps to Bobby Sands funeral . The notion of blood sacrifice goes right back to 1916 and was a major plank of their ideology, and I wouldnt doubt among the various groups thered have been some people prepared to do it . But the difference between the IRA and these jihadist extremists on that particular level is that they were firmly rooted within their communities , it may be hard for you to understand but even those who didnt agree with them , who were the majority, could often respect them to a degree . And there were as a result of that severe constraints placed upon them by what those communities were prepared to tolerate being done in their countrys name . Civilian casualties were an absolute disaster for them . People here, including republicans,  were sickened and outraged whenever that happened .

And then theres their political lineage which they viewed as crucial, and the dictum from the 1916 proclamation with its exhortation _we pray that no one who serves this cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity or rapine . _Not that there werent those who ignored it . And with that baggage of historical lineage you have the issue of the IRAs roots, norms and rules going back a very long time , arguably to the 19th century . So you would have had old school types succeeding and failing to varying degrees in keeping the lid on some of the madder schemes and directions . And a rule book they had to adhere to which was all very strict on that stuff .

So with the jihadists you dont have any of that, theyre pretty much divorced from much of their communities and really not getting any help or encouragement from that quarter . So theres less , indeed no, constraints on them, no moderation . They make their own rules up as they go along, mind you so do the western powers .They point more to whats happening to muslims abroad than in Britian as their raison detre and when your using that example of hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq..yup i know Britian has pulled out but those people arent coming back to life any time soon..then there appears to be very little rules or constraint upon either side.

But having said all that as unpleasant as the things in Ireland were they were mainly that, unpleasant . Had drones and missiles, white phosphorus and the like been raining down on people the thing could have gotten a hell of a lot worse . I dont even want to think about it and what peoples response might have been to that.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Ideally yeah -and for each to recognise their interest in the other. Don't ask me how


 
After posting, I am guilty of making things too rigid and simplistic - after all British-born immigrants (ie not Fijians and Tongans) do enlist, and not all converted terror plotters are non-white immigrants.
But I remember someone saying 'unemployment, it's alright for English youth, they can just go join the army, not like ours'


----------



## coley (May 24, 2013)

rioted said:


> Are you halfway to understanding why home grown squaddies are out in Iraq, Afghanistan killing/bombing people?


See earlier reply.


----------



## IC3D (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red Who are the most common extremists, converts and Pakistanis? The vast majority of Muslims are in the UK to make money and have families like everyone else, as are Pakistanis but that community definitely have a propensity to extremism probably linked to the complicated politics back home, but most recent immigrants are running from one form of extremism or another already and don't want to create more also I'd of thought if they hate someone its another country like France in North African communities or the other flavour of Islam in their part of the middle east or Jews, Kurds.. ad infinitum. London is a melting pot and the British aren't the first port of call to hate for most eh.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Right so we're on the same page, you wasn't closing it off there and the stuff i posted can/should be added to yours?


 
a lot of it can, thats why i get so pissed off when you go cryptic and i dont know whats being said . I want to get a handle on stuff .


----------



## FNG (May 24, 2013)

> So with the jihadists you dont have any of that, theyre pretty much divorced from much of their communities


 
aye, Thats a pattern/trend i noticed coming from the fallout from the "13 point Siege" in Bangladesh, many of the madrassa students failed to tell their parents of their participation prior to the event. Which to some degree suggests a generational gap might be developing between radicalised youth and the communities from which they come.


----------



## cantsin (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?


 

the IRA used suicide as a tactic in 1981, as you must surely know


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

IC3D said:


> Casually Red Who are the most common extremists, converts and Pakistanis? The vast majority of Muslims are in the UK to make money and have families like everyone else, as are Pakistanis but that community definitely have a propensity to extremism probably linked to the complicated politics back home, but most recent immigrants are running from one form of extremism or another already and don't want to create more also I'd of thought if they hate someone its another country like France in North African communities or the other flavour of Islam in their part of the middle east or Jews, Kurds.. ad infinitum. London is a melting pot and the British aren't the first port of call to hate for most eh.


 
im going back a good while here , pre 9 11 but i remember quite a number of reports of London being the favoured destination of a lot of the more radical salafist clerics . At the same time France took a back seat as regards Iraq, cheese eating surrender monkeys and all that . France was the target of some serious islamist bombings pre 911 , but not much after it .
What Blair did was put Britian at the forefront of this _war on terror_, which they translate as a war on muslims, and theres been no admission of doing anything wrong bar a few minor mistakes and no real stepping back from that whole warlike ideology of conquest . Ive certainly noticed even from this vantage point what looks like a ramping up of the militarism in Britian ever since then, an increase in the poppy fascism, the help for heroes stuff, the Cowell aid, Harry in his fucking apache of death . Those are like war drums to some people, and a red rag to others . Britian just seems to be in constant war mode and thats an atmosphere that very easily in my view reinforces the war mode of the jihadists . Its all around them and reinforces everything theyre saying about war and conflict and crusaders.

As regards the pakistani thing my only real experience of that was for a couple of years in the NE of england a long time ago and coming from where I did Id never seen that before and I was really taken aback about how little integration there seemed to be . How there seemed to be simply an organic transplant of people from a very Islamic tribal and even mountain society to a modern England where they just seemed to get on with what they usually did back home . And I thought to myself that really cant be a good thing . Im not really sure what my thoughts on it are except I really wouldnt want it happening here to that degree, it doesnt strike me as healthy . So when youve already got a cultural divorce to a degree, with people coming from a region where extremism is a matter of form..it stands to reason your going to get problems from that direction too . Maybe Britian needs to look at its model of multiculturalism too because it looks to me like its really not fit for purpose , in some areas anyway.


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> And yet in the last thirty years the IRA never went in for suicide bombings ( at least not intentionally) where do you think the difference lies?


They didn't need to, taking their war to the mainland did the job, if it hadn't who knows what they would have done. It is clear that many in the IRA were prepared to die for the cause, so suicide bombings could have been the next step.


----------



## cesare (May 24, 2013)

laptop said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> If I'd grown up (or failed to grow up) in Kidbrooke I'd be looking for an excuse to fuck shit up...


Maybe, but it's more like you have to fight shit all the time. So all that survival fighty stuff can get diverted without realising.


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> They didn't need to, taking their war to the mainland did the job, if it hadn't who knows what they would have done. It is clear that many in the IRA were prepared to die for the cause, so suicide bombings could have been the next step.


 

Maybe they had a smaller pool of operatives so didn't want to squander any in suicide attacks.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

coley said:


> Raises some interesting points esp. the majority of Irish people didn't get involved with republicanism, and the "supranational Irish identity" replace that with " the supra fervent Muslim convert" perhaps.
> One thing is striking, the absence of religion in the article.


 
thats because it didnt play any significant role in republicanism , despite the fact that some were very devout catholics . If anything the religious beliefs held by some of the republicans would have been a moderating factor in many of their actions .

I posted it because Im more open to the view that what motivates these guys to carry out acts of terror in Britian is to a large degree their abandonment or rejection of a British national identity and an identification instead with the wider muslim _ummah_ as a nationality of sorts . That they see muslims being killed in much the same way you would see British people being killed . I think thats where the desire to carry out violent acts in Britian really originates, and that the religious extremism is merely an ideology that reinforces that desire to do something drastic, or gives it an ideological shape and form . Im not really convinced that the religious extremism itself is the cause . I think a lot of these guys gravitate towards it or go deeper into it because its the only place that justifies what they already feel like doing . Bottom line I dont think its primarily the religious extremism which is at the root of their non identification with British society and their desire to use violence against it. I think theres a range of other factors at play , but Im really not knowlegable enough to hold forth on what all the dynamics are .


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

1%er said:


> They didn't need to, taking their war to the mainland did the job, if it hadn't who knows what they would have done. It is clear that many in the IRA were prepared to die for the cause, so suicide bombings could have been the next step.


 

 I dont think so . Communities and families wouldnt have tolerated it and that was the IRAs bedrock . It wasnt in the mindset of where they drew their support from and without that they would have been fucked.


----------



## IC3D (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> im going back a good while here , pre 9 11 but i remember quite a number of reports of London being the favoured destination of a lot of the more radical salafist clerics . At the same time France took a back seat as regards Iraq, cheese eating surrender monkeys and all that . France was the target of some serious islamist bombings pre 911 , but not much after it .
> What Blair did was put Britian at the forefront of this _war on terror_, which they translate as a war on muslims, and theres been no admission of doing anything wrong bar a few minor mistakes and no real stepping back from that whole warlike ideology of conquest . Ive certainly noticed even from this vantage point what looks like a ramping up of the militarism in Britian ever since then, an increase in the poppy fascism, the help for heroes stuff, the Cowell aid, Harry in his fucking apache of death . Those are like war drums to some people, and a red rag to others . Britian just seems to be in constant war mode and thats an atmosphere that very easily in my view reinforces the war mode of the jihadists . Its all around them and reinforces everything theyre saying about war and conflict and crusaders.


 
There is no war footing other than on the TV, I assure you London is rammed to the gills with people oblivious to it if there is. There aren't many Jihadists and those that are probably after being snitched on by Chaudry or someone else don't get very far, the stabbing in Woolwich is one of many happening every week. Personally I felt more on a war footing when they tested the nuke early warning sirens and heard a couple of IRA bombs in the 80's


----------



## 1%er (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I dont think so . Communities and families wouldnt have tolerated it and that was the IRAs bedrock . It wasnt in the mindset of where they drew their support from and without that they would have been fucked.


Maybe I'm misremembering, I'm sure it was in a book written by an IRA member where he claimed "suicide attacks were discussed at the highest level", maybe they were discussed and rejected. I can't remember it was a long time ago.


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided.  The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
Did they plan it that way?  One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired.  I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there.  ???


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Interesting posts Casually Red - don't know if I agree cos I don't really know enough about it but interesting nonetheless.


----------



## Spymaster (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided. The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
> But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
> Did they plan it that way? One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
> According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired. I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there. ???


 
Who do you shoot first, the bloke with the gun or the bloke charging you with a knife?

I think the cops did pretty well. The car had only just turned up and all of a sudden there's a bloke who's already lopped of some geezers head charging at you with a knife. Given the circumstances and the fact that the shooter had about 3 seconds to react I think he's played a blinder.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

UAF Statement from today:




> Handing in of UAF unity statement to Downing St prior to EDL mobilisation
> Monday 27 May 2pm outside Downing Street London SW1A
> 
> Unite Against Fascism sends its condolences to the family and friends of Lee Rigby, the soldier murdered on Wednesday in Woolwich. There can be no justification for such a terrible attack on an individual.
> ...


 
Any incidents linked to Friday prayers?


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Any incidents linked to Friday prayers?


 

Doubt it. Bunch of gobshites, aren't they?


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Who do you shoot first, the bloke with the gun or the bloke charging you with a knife?
> 
> I think the cops did pretty well. The car had only just turned up and all of a sudden there's a bloke who's already lopped of some geezers head charging at you with a knife. Given the circumstances and the fact that the shooter had about 3 seconds to react I think he's played a blinder.


 
Yeah I definitely agree with that - I'm certainly no fan of the police but I really can't see what else those particular coppers _could _have done - if they wanted to stay in one piece anyway.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided. The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
> But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
> Did they plan it that way? One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
> According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired. I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there. ???


 
one things thats struck me throughout this entire thing, apart from the horrific savagery,  is these guys despite their lack of materiel really seemed to have had a plan and stuck to it . They..or maybe someone else..seem to have anticipated and planned in detail for the follow up , cops, media..everything . The only thing that seems to have gone wrong is a possible misfire and the non lethal injuries they took. Beleiving in martyrdom is one thing but to commit such an horrific act and then just sit and wait in front of all those people and keep your head and stick to the plan . Thats nothing like those losers who lost all their money on foreign exchanges and almost starved in somelittle camp and had to ring mummy and daddy toget them home .
Thats way more serious . If thats a taste of things to come its quite sobering .


----------



## sptme (May 24, 2013)

Reprisal attack in East London 
http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/new..._run_by_muslim_family_in_upton_park_1_2209782


> A Muslim family are in shock after their fried chicken shop was viciously attacked last night by vengeful thugs following the murder of a soldier in Woolwich.
> Two men entered Dixy Chicken on Green Street, Upton Park at 9.30pm where staff claim they banged on the serving counter, shouting, “You killed one of our soldiers, we’ll kill you” before vandalising the shop.


Luckily its doesn't seem like anyone was seriously hurt.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> UAF Statement from today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Not related to Friday prayers but SWP types are sharing this (Muslim run takeaway attacked in what the article says is a revenge attack by the far right) on facebook.

I've got a few SWP and UAF types on my facebook and if it happened I'm sure they'll have posted something - when I get 5 minutes I'll have a proper look.

E2A: Same link sptme just posted above, must have been about half a second before me!


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

It's not a taste of thing to come - it's a taste of their defeat. Forced into mad acts like that cut the ground out from under them. Not a new stage but defeat on an old stage.


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

Spymaster said:


> Who do you shoot first, the bloke with the gun or the bloke charging you with a knife?
> 
> I think the cops did pretty well. The car had only just turned up and all of a sudden there's a bloke who's already lopped of some geezers head charging at you with a knife. Given the circumstances and the fact that the shooter had about 3 seconds to react I think he's played a blinder.


It was a she I think (again I'm just going on what twitter blokey said).
I reckon you're supposed to split your fire and cover one another (but how would I really know?).


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> UAF Statement from today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Don't know if it's been posted already but this appears to be the arson attack they're talking about.

I've had a bit of a look around and can't see anything around Friday prayers.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> It was a she I think (again I'm just going on what twitter blokey said).
> I reckon you're supposed to split your fire and cover one another (but how would I really know?).


No, the other bloke in the car fired. The WPC was the one under threat.


----------



## JHE (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> Watching the 'orrible video (from above) of the shooting, it seems to me as though the police got a bit blindsided. The first attacker rushes towards them (but discards his knife) - the second guy falls back and seems to be aiming his gun at them for a fews seconds.
> But the armed police (the ones we can see), seem to be only focussed on the forward rushing guy.
> Did they plan it that way? One rushes forward as a decoy, while the other one shoots?
> According to an eyewitness (twitter bloke) the gun misfired. I reckon (just from looking at that video) the police may have been a bit lucky there. ???


 
Assuming it is true that one of the Allah-sodden gentlemen had a gun, tried to use it and it misfired, yes, Plod was more than a bit lucky!


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> ...
> Thats way more serious . If thats a taste of things to come its quite sobering .


I have to agree.  I actually thought the main guy (machete guy), was scarily articulate compared to the usual loons (obviously spouting utter crap, but in a coherent and consistent manner is what I mean ).


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> I have to agree. I actually thought the main guy (machete guy), was scarily articulate compared to the usual loons (obviously spouting utter crap, but in a coherent and consistent manner is what I mean ).


 
yup, pretty much shocked me . Even Boyadee was gobsmacked, and hes seen it all before . Twice .


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No, the other bloke in the car fired. The WPC was the one under threat.


His tweets have been deleted, but twitter bloke (from earlier in this thread) clearly stated that the WPC was the one who fired (no idea how reliable his testimony is, but he got very excited about it and went into quite a bit of detail).


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> His tweets have been deleted, but twitter bloke (from earlier in this thread) clearly stated that the WPC was the one who fired (no idea how reliable his testimony is, but he got very excited about it and went into quite a bit of detail).


The police say the opposite.


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> yup, pretty much shocked me . Even Boyadee was gobsmacked, and hes seen it all before . Twice .


That's the chap - Boyadee - my main news source these days.


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The police say the opposite.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


>


No other accounts say the wpc fired - apart from this deleted one.


----------



## IC3D (May 24, 2013)

On Newsnight atm his mate is saying the knifeman was radicalised after being sexually assaulted in Kenya by the OB  also being harassed by M15 in London


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The police say the opposite.


 
Not sure that they have, tbh. Quite a few of the reports mention that it was a female PC who shot at least one of these blokes.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> That's the chap - Boyadee - my main news source these days.


 
hes the newshound Trevor McDonald wanted to be, but hadnt the nerve


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No other accounts say the wpc fired - apart from this deleted one.


Well it could all be bullshit, I've no idea.  What about the misfire, has that been reported?  My man Boyz said that it blew the assailants finger off.  (I hope someone has preserved those tweets)


----------



## JHE (May 24, 2013)

alsoknownas said:


> I have to agree. I actually thought the main guy (machete guy), was scarily articulate compared to the usual loons (obviously spouting utter crap, but in a coherent and consistent manner is what I mean ).


 
All the Islamonuts whose statements we've heard, in their video wotsits, have been equally clear (or "articulate", if you prefer).  The views they express and the clarity with which they express them are not rare.  They differ from most of their thinkalikes in having the courage of their convictions.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

agricola said:


> Not sure that they have, tbh. Quite a few of the reports mention that it was a female PC who shot at least one of these blokes.


The one who ran at the jam sandwich, they'e not saying he was shot by a WPC are they?

edit: 





> "Oh my God!!! The way the Feds took them out!!! It was a female police officer she come out the whip and just started bussin shots … right next to a primary school."


 
That one is. The police said it was as male copper shooting through a car window didn't they?


----------



## sptme (May 24, 2013)

Anyone know, is this for real/fake? Saw it on twitter.


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The one who ran at the jam sandwich, they'e not saying he as shot by a WPC are they?


 
The first one definately, there seems to be some confusion over the second (the one whose revolver apparently blew up).


----------



## alsoknownas (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> All the Islamonuts whose statements we've heard, in their video wotsits, have been equally clear (or "articulate", if you prefer). The views they express and the clarity with which they express them are not rare. They differ from most of their thinkalikes in having the courage of their convictions.


Yeah, I suppose I'm comparing him to people like (shoe bomber) Richard Reid, who seemed obviously vulnerable and out of his depth.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's not a taste of thing to come - it's a taste of their defeat. Forced into mad acts like that cut the ground out from under them. Not a new stage but defeat on an old stage.


 
but all their acts were mad.

Mebbe your right but I dunno, it looks like its evolving . You could be right and its towards extinction but these guys have the appearance of being on a learning curve . And far from the ground cut under them theyve got worldwide publicity . If theyd offed Cameron they wouldnt have gotten more airtime .


----------



## killer b (May 24, 2013)

sptme said:


> Anyone know, is this for real/fake? Saw it on twitter.


i'll be shocked if that's real. the 'an international plot to abolish parliament' question in particular is quite mad.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The one who ran at the jam sandwich, they'e not saying he was shot by a WPC are they?
> 
> edit:
> 
> That one is. The police said it was as male copper shooting through a car window didn't they?


the mirror are certainly reporting how "brave WPC" driver, unable to draw her firearm, is saved by a male colleague in the back who fires his machine-gun through his window at a suspect who is charging at her.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-video-watch-full-1908975​


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

> i'll be shocked if that's real. the 'an international plot to abolish parliament' question in particular is quite mad.


 
And the Muslims in the media question.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Is what real?


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> All the Islamonuts whose statements we've heard, in their video wotsits, have been equally clear (or "articulate", if you prefer). The views they express and the clarity with which they express them are not rare. They differ from most of their thinkalikes in having the courage of their convictions.


 
yeah but its one thing articulating it  on the internet, another thing after youve just hacked someone to death and are sitting waiting for the armed response to arrive . Thatll have inspired someone .


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> the mirror are certainly reporting how "brave WPC" driver, unable to draw her firearm, is saved by a male colleague in the back who fires his machine-gun through his window at a suspect who is charging at her.
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/woolwich-attack-video-watch-full-1908975


That's the story i was going with - not seen anyone challenge it. Not here to defend it is, just noting that this was story this morning.


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2013)

killer b said:


> i'll be shocked if that's real. the 'an international plot to abolish parliament' question in particular is quite mad.


 
Not really - one of the questions on the government vetting forms used to (and probably still is) be "Have you ever been involved in actions intended to overthrow or undermine Parliamentary democracy".


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

killer b said:


> i'll be shocked if that's real. the 'an international plot to abolish parliament' question in particular is quite mad.


 
its not mad, its precisely why the jews invented those muslamic rayguns in the first place .


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> yeah but its one thing articulating it on the internet, another thing after youve just hacked someone to death and are sitting waiting for the armed response to arrive . Thatll have inspired someone .


 
I'm not sure whether it will inspire others but I agree with you that it seemed very well planned to me.

I'm still intrigued by the possibility of links between Richard Reid and one of yesterdays two who went to Kidbrooke School (Reid went to Thomas Tallis which is in the same neighbourhood, a mile or so from where yesterdays killing took place).  I vaguely recall something about a 'terrorist training camp' being found on the Ferrier Estate after Reid was caught but Google is only coming up with a couple of references to it.


----------



## JHE (May 24, 2013)

agricola said:


> Not really - one of the questions on the government vetting forms used to (and probably still is) "Have you ever been involved in actions intended to overthrow or undermine Parliamentary democracy".


 
That reminds me of a question members of the Spartacist League used to ask their interlocutors at public meetings/debates when I first came across them in the late 70s:  "Do you believe in violent revolution?"  In those days I was a keen proponent of "non-violent revolution".  The Sparts immediately lost interest and went to look for someone less pacifist to talk to.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Indeed. We don't ban Argentinian Restaurants though, or blame every Argentinian for the invasion. In fact, rather than in the occasional 'gung ho' remembrance, we have pretty much forgotten about it.


 
thats because you won

had port stanley been carpet bombed prior to the reclamation of Las Malvinas it might have been a bit different . In fact the only islanders killed were by stray British rounds.


----------



## Casually Red (May 24, 2013)

JHE said:


> That reminds me of a question members of the Spartacist League used to ask their interlocutors at public meetings/debates when I first came across them in the late 70s: "Do you believe in violent revolution?" In those days I was a keen proponent of "non-violent revolution". The Sparts immediately lost interest and went to look for someone less pacifist to talk to.


 
i keep hearing these chaps names..the sparts..must do some reading on them .


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I'm not sure whether it will inspire others but I agree with you that it seemed very well planned to me.
> 
> I'm still intrigued by the possibility of links between Richard Reid and one of yesterdays two who went to Kidbrooke School (Reid went to Thomas Tallis which is in the same neighbourhood, a mile or so from where yesterdays killing took place). I vaguely recall something about a 'terrorist training camp' being found on the Ferrier Estate after Reid was caught but Google is only coming up with a couple of references to it.


It would take a few minor things for this to become a botched job. This is not professionalism - it's luck. Pure luck.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Not related to Friday prayers but SWP types are sharing this (Muslim run takeaway attacked in what the article says is a revenge attack by the far right) on facebook.


 
That was a revenge attack sure but not a mass protest as was suggested, could be the work of very few people indeed (not to dismiss it). Where do all the facebook likes for them fit in, I am not on facebook so don't really know - apparently there was a call for protests outside mosques maybe harking back to the Finsbury Park Mosque protests back in 2003/4? called by the NF attended by all sorts - heavy police presence penning them in.


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> That was a revenge attack sure but not a mass protest as was suggested, could be the work of very few people indeed (not to dismiss it). Where do all the facebook likes for them fit in, I am not on facebook so don't really know - apparently there was a call for protests outside mosques maybe harking back to the Finsbury Park Mosque protests back in 2003/4? called by the NF attended by all sorts - heavy police presence penning them in.


 
Indeed.  Two blokes smashing up a takeaway at half nine at night isnt exactly unusual behaviour.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

Newsnight interview with very close friend of one has:

one of the guys was a non-Muslim youth moving into mostly white Romford around 2002
converting in 2004
then wanting to live in a Muslim country against idea of shariah in Britain, wanting it in Muslim lands
going to Kenya to study kuran being arrested by Kenyan military police from a rural area
then interrogated says no comment gets tortured sexually
then on return to britain in 2012 is hassled by mi5 asking him about people he might know which he doesn't, asking him to be an agent and informer
becomes sullen and non-responsive not usual bubbly self but no indication of wanting to plan violence


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> That was a revenge attack sure but not a mass protest as was suggested, could be the work of very few people indeed (not to dismiss it). Where do all the facebook likes for them fit in, I am not on facebook so don't really know - apparently there was a call for protests outside mosques maybe harking back to the Finsbury Park Mosque protests back in 2003/4? called by the NF attended by all sorts - heavy police presence penning them in.


 
Ah right sorry, misunderstood what it was you're looking for - certainly not seen evidence of anything that would require significant numbers.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

agricola said:


> Indeed. Two blokes smashing up a takeaway at half nine at night isnt exactly unusual behaviour.


in that part of east london, i'd say it's almost normal behaviour.


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

More on the background of one of those involved http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-adebowale-witnessed-murder-knife


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Are their names really Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale? I'm never going to be able to remember which one's which - only the last 4 letters are different ffs


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Belushi said:


> More on the background of one of those involved http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-adebowale-witnessed-murder-knife


 


> Background information about Adebolajo, 28, was circulating soon after Wednesday's gruesome murder but it took a day before Adebowale's name began circulating in public. Relatively little has been known about his background until now.


Rubbish - it was on twitter by 6.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

Belushi said:


> More on the background of one of those involved http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-adebowale-witnessed-murder-knife


surprised that they can print so much information ahead of any prosecution, let alone any trial.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> surprised that they can print so much information ahead of any prosecution, let alone any trial.


Why?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> That was a revenge attack sure but not a mass protest as was suggested, could be the work of very few people indeed (not to dismiss it). Where do all the facebook likes for them fit in, I am not on facebook so don't really know - apparently there was a call for protests outside mosques maybe harking back to the Finsbury Park Mosque protests back in 2003/4? called by the NF attended by all sorts - heavy police presence penning them in.


 


this taking of 'likes' on facebook as representative of significant views gets wearing. The likeage variable is so huge. Theres everything from reflex likers, considered likers and everything in between. Its about as significant as someone nodding while another person says something. imo


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> surprised that they can print so much information ahead of any prosecution, let alone any trial.


 
Think it will take more than newspaper articles mentioning their personal lives to get them off - they were caught red handed - literally - and judging by their statements immediately after have no intention of denying what they did.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why?


prejudicing a jury? revealing details of past life that aren't necessarily relevant to case but could sway influence? that kind of thing.


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> this taking of 'likes' on facebook as representative of significant views gets wearing. The likeage variable is so huge. Theres everything from reflex likers, considered likers and everything in between. Its about as significant as someone nodding while another person says something. imo


 
Not forgetting you often have to like a page in order to call them cunts


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

Telegraph has info on the parents 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-mother-tried-to-prevent-radicalisation.html


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> prejudicing a jury? revealing details of past life that aren't necessarily relevant to case but could sway influence? that kind of thing.


What jury? What charges? That's the key bit here.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> this taking of 'likes' on facebook as representative of significant views gets wearing. The likeage variable is so huge. Theres everything from reflex likers, considered likers and everything in between. Its about as significant as someone nodding while another person says something. imo


 
Yeah, and it's even more irritating when it's an event, especially when you're the one organising it and you hope to get an indication of how many people will turn up - loads of people say they're attending it when what they actually mean is they have no intention of coming - and often live in another country on the other side of the globe - but they just generally agree with whatever its aims might be. As a general rule it seems to be about 1/10 who actually turn up - don't know if the 'like' thing has similar proportionality or not.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Think it will take more than newspaper articles mentioning their personal lives to get them off - they were caught red handed - literally - and judging by their statements immediately after have no intention of denying what they did.


that isn't really the point. the media use the word "alleged" and "accused" for very particular legal reasons, when discussing what people are said to have done. that's why, for eg, ITV apparently took the "confession" to the killing from red-hand geezer out of their 6pm coverage, but left the "eye for an eye" bit in.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What jury? What charges? That's the key bit here.


? so there won't be a trial here?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Telegraph has info on the parents
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-mother-tried-to-prevent-radicalisation.html


Skim-read that. Poor woman. Articles like that about her already. She hasn't spoken to the Telegraph - 'friends' have. Leave her alone.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> ? so there won't be a trial here?


Think about it paulie.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Telegraph has info on the parents
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-mother-tried-to-prevent-radicalisation.html


 
Interesting - looks like he came from a middle class background - would be interesting to see some kind of analysis of the class backgrounds of 'western' born (meaning British, European, US etc) suicide bombers if anyone knows of one.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Think about it paulie.


 
You thinking enemy combatants?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Think about it paulie.


they're gwan to die in the hospital?

jeremy hunt's masterplan comes through at last?

struggling otherwise chief....


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> they're gwan to die in the hospital?
> 
> jeremy hunt's masterplan comes through at last?
> 
> struggling otherwise chief....


Other than talking about stuff that is part of a trial we sort of have the right to talk about what we want - you want to get rid of that?


Please let me know if you are paulie tandori so i can cut you some slack.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> they're gwan to die in the hospital?
> 
> jeremy hunt's masterplan comes through at last?
> 
> struggling otherwise chief....


 
Those aren't the only options. Think about what has happened to other British born terror suspects.


----------



## sihhi (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Interesting - looks like he came from a middle class background - would be interesting to see some kind of analysis of the class backgrounds of 'western' born (meaning British, European, US etc) suicide bombers if anyone knows of one.


 
Single parent household, a probation officer mother, Greenwich University degree not completed.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Other than talking about stuff that is part of a trial we sort of have the right to talk about what we want - you want to get rid of that?
> 
> 
> Please let me know if you are paulie tandori so i can cut you some slack.


do you want your five punts now?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Those aren't the only options. Think about what has happened to other British born terror suspects.


what, ship them off to gitmo? get real.


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> jeremy hunt's masterplan comes through at last?


 
For whom the bell tolls?


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> do you want your five punts now?


Not like ye to be arguing for shutting down of the press.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> what, ship them off to gitmo? get real.


That can't possibly happen. They will certainly stand trial here. It would be utterly impossible for them not to.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not like ye to be arguing for shutting down of the press.


no, but i would argue to ensure that a fair trial takes place, and precognition as to what they did or said or witnessed shouldn't be allowed to form part of a reasoable defence.


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2013)

Paul T said:


> no, but i would argue to ensure that a fair trial takes place, and precognition as to what they did or said or witnessed shouldn't be allowed to form part of a reasoable defence.


You're saying that background reporting can't and should no happen. They'd love that. However, the establishing work for trials on our side say otherwise. On an immediate instrumental basis - never mind the principle.


----------



## Belushi (May 24, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Interesting - looks like he came from a middle class background - would be interesting to see some kind of analysis of the class backgrounds of 'western' born (meaning British, European, US etc) suicide bombers if anyone knows of one.


 
From what I can glean from the article he grew up on council estates. Woolwich is a tough neighbourhood, a lot of deprivation. An old white community and a fairly recently arrived african community which has its own divisions, especially between Muslims and Christians. It can be a tough place to bring up kids and it can be hard to keep them out of trouble.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You're saying that background reporting can't and should no happen. They'd love that. However, the establishing work for trials on our side say otherwise. On an immediate instrumental basis - never mind the principle.


no, but it's quite a new thing to see such a level of detail immediately available on the crime, the aftermath, the background etc and if i was a defence lawyer, i reckon i could get the first couple of juries discharged simply on asking whose got a twitter, facebook or even fucking daily mirror bookmark, let alone the rest.

i'm not saying i support suppressing anything, i'm just asking questions as to how, or if, the existing judicial process could be affected.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

And not at all is the answer.


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah I do think the motivations are different, though linked in some ways. But having a significant part of the Muslim population with serious grievances against British foreign policy must make it easier for them to hide - just like if the IRA hadn't had so much support among Catholics in NI it would have been easier to deal with them - for various reasons. They might feel more inclined to help them hide, or at least less inclined to inform on them. And I dare say there are some who may express support online etc for these actions but who would never do them (and if they saw it up close would likely be as disgusted as anyone else) - absent these grievances that kind of 'noise' would surely be reduced.
> 
> I'm just thinking out loud now by the way, this is probably full of holes.



No, thinking out loud is fine, it's much more honest and open to debate than carefully constructed arguments designed to score points rather than understand the problem/issue under discussion.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

we shall see i suppose.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Paul T said:


> we shall see i suppose.


Why not get your old name back you daftie.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Why not get your old name back you daftie.


feck knows, don't know how to really. good to speak to you again anyhow you old grumpy


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 25, 2013)

> MI5 asked Woolwich murder suspect Michael Adebolajo if he wanted to work for them, a childhood friend has said.
> 
> Abu Nusaybah told BBC Two's Newsnight his friend had revealed to him six months ago that the security service had been "knocking on his door".
> 
> ...


 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Paul T said:


> feck knows, don't know how to really. good to speak to you again anyhow you old grumpy


Just ask 'em, they won't kill you 

Always need whites on here


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 25, 2013)

Paul T said:


> feck knows, don't know how to really. good to speak to you again anyhow you old grumpy


You specifically asked to use the new name, and were let do so by somebody more generous than me.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You specifically asked to use the new name, and were let do so by somebody more generous than me.


thanks for that mr pedantic. nice to make your fragrant acquaintance again.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

sihhi said:


> Single parent household, a probation officer mother, Greenwich University degree not completed.


 
Read it as 'son of a Christian probation officer and a member the Nigerian High Commission' - that'll teach me to skim it


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Read it as '*son of a Christian probation officer and a member the Nigerian High Commission'* - that'll teach me to skim it


 
was the only man who could ever teach me


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

Belushi said:


> From what I can glean from the article he grew up on council estates. Woolwich is a tough neighbourhood, a lot of deprivation. An old white community and a fairly recently arrived african community which has its own divisions, especially between Muslims and Christians. It can be a tough place to bring up kids and it can be hard to keep them out of trouble.


 
Yeah, I skim read it very quickly and misread the bit at the start about his parents occupations - not the first fuck up I've made tonight either - I think it's probably time I went to bed!


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> was the only man who could ever teach me


bit of dusty never hurt nobody


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2013)

Paul T said:


> bit of dusty never hurt nobody


 

she just loved to live that way and to bomb your embassy


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

I wonder if the NUS are going to continue denying that extremism in universities is a problem. Hint: yes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10079894/Woolwich-attack-suspects-former-university-played-host-to-extremists.html


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That can't possibly happen. They will certainly stand trial here. It would be utterly impossible for them not to.


 
Not saying it's likely - in part I was trying to second guess what BA meant - but impossible? I wouldn't be so sure - if the right links were 'uncovered' rendition would be a possibility - probably not Gitmo though.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I wouldn't be opposed to that at all. It would be most effective if it was on the back of the kind of community campaigns I mentioned before, so that it was muslims and non-muslims opposing them. That's the kind of message it needs to be IMO - you're scum and decent people, muslims and non-muslims are united in disgust and opposition.


 
I think this would be great, but that the UAF would call it racist.


----------



## Belushi (May 25, 2013)

Greenwich has nevergiven  a fuck. They had a leading BNP figure doing a degree there back when I was a student.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I wonder if the NUS are going to continue denying that extremism in universities is a problem. Hint: yes.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10079894/Woolwich-attack-suspects-former-university-played-host-to-extremists.html


You need to chase these people off campus. Are they active in your place?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Greenwich has never a fuck. They had a leading BNP figure doing a degree there back when I was a student.


Did he have a BNP organisation as part of the furniture? No, these cunts have to get gone, and that may mean a fight, but they need gone.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> she just loved to live that way and to bomb your embassy


sharif don't like it


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I think this would be great, but that the UAF would call it racist.


 
They're already on the list, along with Laurie Penny, of people who have called me racist. They've already tried to bar me from a demonstration because I 'looked like EDL' too. So it wouldn't really change anything. Be interesting to see how they'd spin Muslims - and to work this would have to include them, even more so than usual - as racist against Muslims. Not that they wouldn't try of course.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You need to chase these people off campus. Are they active in your place?


Didn't happen with Patrick Harrington, would it happen now?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Paul T said:


> Didn't happen with Patrick Harrington, would it happen now?


It did - we have the leader of the campaign on here. All them people getting together saying this cunt needs gone = win.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You need to chase these people off campus. Are they active in your place?


 
They are active everywhere, though Sheffield Hallam is a particular hotspot and has been for a decade. Any mention of it to student government or the NUS is either ignored or attacked as Islamophobic. There is careerism at play too, student politicians who want to get on in the NUS don't want the inevitable accusations of Islamophobia.

The only people who are politically active and do any chasing off of campus of anyone are the in the majority the people who won't countenance any criticism of the extremists. The minority are cowed by the majority.

The result is a vacuum which has been filled by a group called Student Rights, which is funded by the neoconservative Henry Jackson Society. The fact that they are the only group to respond further entrenches the position of student politicians to this stuff.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> They are active everywhere, though Sheffield Hallam is a particular hotspot and has been for a decade. Any mention of it to student government or the NUS is either ignored or attacked as Islamophobic. There is careerism at play too, student politicians who want to get on in the NUS don't want the inevitable accusations of Islamophobia.
> 
> The only people who are politically active and do any chasing off of campus of anyone are the in the majority the people who won't countenance any criticism of the extremists. The minority are cowed by the majority.
> 
> The result is a vacuum which has been filled by a group called Student Rights, which is funded by the neoconservative Henry Jackson Society. The fact that they are the only group to respond further entrenches the position of student politicians to this stuff.


Thanks for that, different world - that is pretty fucking nuts and i don't know how/where to respond. Is this normal on uni campus' (organisations?)


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

I can't say I've ever come across it - apart from an event at Hallam someone showed me (think it was put on by the Islamic society) with a well dodgy speaker at it. But I don't get that heavily involved with student politics cos it's impossible to have a sensible discussion with half of them without some kind of emotionally charged accusation so I might have missed it.

Is there much of this going on at Sheffield J Ed?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It did - we have the leader of the campaign on here. All them people getting together saying this cunt needs gone = win.


_Harrington eventually graduated with a philosophy degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Harrington_

admittedly, in separate classes, but you can't say he was denied either an education or a mouthpiece. at the same time as he was very publicly active in NF etc.

i'm definitely not criticising the people who demonstrated against him, by the way, again, i am highlighting how easily one can use the judicial system and some sheer face to be able to spread some comtemptible and misleading messages regardless.


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> well the hungerstrikes proved that the issue of certain death and martyrdom isnt entirely cultural, even the Iranians were taken aback in 81 and sent reps to Bobby Sands funeral . The notion of blood sacrifice goes right back to 1916 and was a major plank of their ideology, and I wouldnt doubt among the various groups thered have been some people prepared to do it . But the difference between the IRA and these jihadist extremists on that particular level is that they were firmly rooted within their communities , it may be hard for you to understand but even those who didnt agree with them , who were the majority, could often respect them to a degree . And there were as a result of that severe constraints placed upon them by what those communities were prepared to tolerate being done in their countrys name . Civilian casualties were an absolute disaster for them . People here, including republicans,  were sickened and outraged whenever that happened .
> 
> And then theres their political lineage which they viewed as crucial, and the dictum from the 1916 proclamation with its exhortation _we pray that no one who serves this cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity or rapine . _Not that there werent those who ignored it . And with that baggage of historical lineage you have the issue of the IRAs roots, norms and rules going back a very long time , arguably to the 19th century . So you would have had old school types succeeding and failing to varying degrees in keeping the lid on some of the madder schemes and directions . And a rule book they had to adhere to which was all very strict on that stuff .
> 
> ...




But having said all that as unpleasant as the things in Ireland were they were mainly that, unpleasant . Had drones and missiles, white phosphorus and the like been raining down on people the thing could have gotten a hell of a lot worse . I dont even want to think about it and what peoples response might have been to that

And what's happened here, and other Western countries, compared to the ME and Afghanistan, Pakistan and India and anywhere where you have Muslim communities coming into conflict with other Muslim communities, is, and I mean no disrespect to those who have died in London, pretty small beer.
The various Muslim sects daily visit atrocities on each other, which compared to Western cock ups, misguided drones dropping bombs on wedding parties etc, if you look at it objectively, pales into insignificance.
What we are doing and what we have done, in the ME, looked at in hindsight was patently wrong/ foolish.
But, and lets leave the evil capitalist rhetoric out of it, designed to keep the oil flowing.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Paul T said:


> _Harrington eventually graduated with a philosophy degree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Harrington_
> 
> admittedly, in separate classes, but you can't say he was denied either an education or a mouthpiece. at the same time as he was very publicly active in NF etc.
> 
> i'm definitely not criticising the people who demonstrated against him, by the way, again, i am highlighting how easily one can use the judicial system and some sheer face to be able to spread some comtemptible and misleading messages regardless.


A year of turmoil (Under todays conditions) - why not?


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I can't say I've ever come across it - apart from an event at Hallam someone showed me (think it was put on by the Islamic society) with a well dodgy speaker at it. But I don't get that heavily involved with student politics cos it's impossible to have a sensible discussion with half of them without some kind of emotionally charged accusation so I might have missed it.
> 
> Is there much of this going on at Sheffield J Ed?


 
I think it's difficult to know the extent to which this stuff goes on because a lot of what goes on isn't open. For example http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/03/christmas-bombers-uk-links



> When I was involved with Hizb, we controlled the Islamic Society of Sheffield Hallam University for several years, as well as running the society in Bradford University and Birmingham University. We were full-time activists dedicated to fomenting dissent, anti-western feelings and nurturing those who we believed could help to advance our cause.
> During my time as one of their student organisers, I came across a number of Islamist activists who went on to become armed jihadists – four former members of Islamic societies that I know of have faced charges of terrorist activity. Omar Khan Sharif, who later died after attempting to detonate a suicide bomb in Tel Aviv, was a regular contact of Hizb and used to attend our meetings .
> Our organisation was geared up to keeping control of Islamic societies so that we could utilise their budgets, which ultimately come from the British taxpayer.
> We kept the Islamic society under tight control. We used the society's budget to host Hizb speakers, and would target Muslim students we believed could become activists. We had Hizb people delivering sermons every Friday and influential lecturers stayed on as PhD students and then lecturers at universities. These were people whom the university had confidence in and would not doubt.
> ...


 
There have been a couple of dodgy Islamic Society speakers per year at Sheffield Uni for a while. Hamza Tzortzis, a former member of Hizb, has spoken for years but has a history of calling for gay people to be murdered and compares them to paedophiles. There have been some moderate speakers too, it isn't anything like Hallam.


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

cantsin said:


> the IRA used suicide as a tactic in 1981, as you must surely know


Suicide, as opposed to suicide attacks, a subtle difference, as you will surely acknowledge?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

This is nuts.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

coley said:


> But having said all that as unpleasant as the things in Ireland were they were mainly that, unpleasant . Had drones and missiles, white phosphorus and the like been raining down on people the thing could have gotten a hell of a lot worse . I dont even want to think about it and what peoples response might have been to that
> 
> And what's happened here, and other Western countries, compared to the ME and Afghanistan, Pakistan and India and anywhere where you have Muslim communities coming into conflict with other Muslim communities, is, and I mean no disrespect to those who have died in London, pretty small beer.
> The various Muslim sects daily visit atrocities on each other, which compared to Western cock ups, misguided drones dropping bombs on wedding parties etc, if you look at it objectively, pales into insignificance.
> ...


 
It's to be born in mind though that although they're not new these sectarian tensions have been heightened massively by western intervention - both military and less overt.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks for that, different world - that is pretty fucking nuts and i don't know how/where to respond. Is this normal on uni campus' (organisations?)


 
Depends on who you ask, I suppose. The right-wing monitor group I mentioned before has provided pretty persuasive evidence that it's pervasive http://www.studentrights.org.uk/article/2082/report_unequal_opportunity_gender_segregation_on_uk_university_campuses but the NUS seem to think there's nothing to worry about...


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I think it's difficult to know the extent to which this stuff goes on because a lot of what goes on isn't open. For example http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/03/christmas-bombers-uk-links
> 
> 
> 
> There have been a couple of dodgy Islamic Society speakers per year at Sheffield Uni for a while. Hamza Tzortzis, a former member of Hizb, has spoken for years but has a history of calling for gay people to be murdered and compares them to paedophiles. There have been some moderate speakers too, it isn't anything like Hallam.


 
So would I be right in saying that the loons operate within university Islamic societies in a way that's sort of similar to how Militant worked in the Labour party? I'm gonna do my best to keep an eye on the sheffield society - and if there's anything that's definitely dodgy (think with the kind of accusations that would inevitably follow you have to be absolutely sure) I'll see what I can do about organising against it. If the BNP or the NF were pulling this kind of shit I'd be on it like a shot so I don't see why these should get a free pass.


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is nuts.


An opinion or the magazine?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Depends on who you ask, I suppose. The right-wing monitor group I mentioned before has provided pretty persuasive evidence that it's pervasive http://www.studentrights.org.uk/article/2082/report_unequal_opportunity_gender_segregation_on_uk_university_campuses but the NUS seem to think there's nothing to worry about...


Ta. Taking me some time to get my head round this. I'll get there.


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> It's to be born in mind though that although they're not new these sectarian tensions have been heightened massively by western intervention - both military and less overt.


Come back to you on that, though I don't totally  disagree, slightly pissed at the mo.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Yeah I do think the motivations are different, though linked in some ways. But having a significant part of the Muslim population with serious grievances against British foreign policy must make it easier for them to hide - just like if the IRA hadn't had so much support among Catholics in NI it would have been easier to deal with them - for various reasons. They might feel more inclined to help them hide, or at least less inclined to inform on them. And I dare say there are some who may express support online etc for these actions but who would never do them (and if they saw it up close would likely be as disgusted as anyone else) - absent these grievances that kind of 'noise' would surely be reduced.
> 
> I'm just thinking out loud now by the way, this is probably full of holes.


 
no, sure thats what im doing here too. just thinking out loud .

But I think the difference here is that the people on the receiving end of the western aggression are on the other side of the world , not in london. Therefore these guys dont really have a host population facing personal suffering to hide among regardless of a shared sense of outrage at foreign events. People being people the vast majority no matter what their opinions on issues usually dont want trouble in a largely peaceful society like Britain. And I suspect thats the sentiments of the vast majority of the muslim community. It certainly was with the Irish community in Britain .
After that debacle in Birmingham in the 1970s that was pretty much lights out for even political Irish republicanism in Britain from then on in. The Irish community simply didnt want to know. I suspect after the events of London the extremists would have gotten similar short shrift from their own muslim communities, thats if they werent getting it even before.

When the IRA launched their prolonged campaign in england in the 80s and 90s it was in the main with sleepers who were largely clean skins, the vast bulk sent from Ireland to blend into the general english population and often with strict instructions to avoid contact with the wider Irish community in Britain. The immigrant or generational Irish community couldnt give information on them because they simply didnt have it to give . However these guys dont seem to have that sort of anonymity, most if not all of them are on the books as extremists to begin with . Even their attire and beards mark them out as devout, as much as from what i can see.

Its hard to know and Im thinking out loud like yourself but it remains to be seen whether the marked switch in tactics, away from mosque based larger groups with grand ambitions of spectacular explosions to more autonmous and focused stuff is the development of a learning curve or as Butchers says a dying kick . Hard to know, but that bit about guns on the streets in the future caught my eye . Maybe it was just bluster, maybe not . Stuff like mumbai came into my head .

But whatever the case these guys will be seen as inspirational by those who for whatever reason are tempted to go down that path . Not just for what they did but more importantly how they acted and spoke afterwards . Therein lies the danger . The would be jihadists dont need touts like choudry and dodgy old jailed clerics for inspiration any more, they have these guys for inspiration now . Young, articulate and doing precisely what they set out to do . Cause mayhem .


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

I'm just so confused at how much coverage Anjem Choudary is getting. Every single time he gets on TV to spout his unrepresentative bullshit the far-right must get dozens of new recruits at minimum.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I'm just so confused at how much coverage Anjem Choudary is getting. Every single time he gets on TV to spout his unrepresentative bullshit the far-right must get dozens of new recruits at minimum.


 
they put him up there for their own reasons, no doubt about it . Youd almost think they were trying to point disaffected muslim youths in his direction...god knows why .

And he does know .


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I'm just so confused at how much coverage Anjem Choudary is getting. Every single time he gets on TV to spout his unrepresentative bullshit the far-right must get dozens of new recruits at minimum.


I think we can vote him off this round. We're past the auditions.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> they put him up there for their own reasons, no doubt about it . Youd almost think they were trying to point disaffected muslim youths in his direction...god knows why .
> 
> And he does know .


 
That was what I was thinking, although if this has been their strategy up until now then it's obviously not been a very successful one for keeping tabs on people.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> That was what I was thinking, although if this has been their strategy up until now then it's obviously not been a very successful one for keeping tabs on people.


 
i think its been quite successful considering your dealing with people who were, up to recently, keen to target the defenceless general civilian population and who often never bothered with the idea of getting away afterwards . The level of success the British authorities have had in preventing what should have been penalty kicks gives me the impression theyve had the upper hand for quite a while .

Thats why the recent _success _for want of a better term makes me suspect some of these guys might have made a learning curve along the way and cut ties with some of the usual suspects .


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i think its been quite successful considering your dealing with people who were, up to recently, keen to target the defenceless general civilian population and who often never bothered with the idea of getting away afterwards . The level of success the British authorities have had in preventing what should have been penalty kicks gives me the impression theyve had the upper hand for quite a while .
> 
> Thats why the recent _success _for want of a better term makes me suspect some of these guys might have made a learning curve along the way and cut ties with some of the usual suspects .


It's not that hard - leave the shouties alone, don't get seen -  and then do it.If they were producing people like themselves, then ok, but....


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-killing-universities-campaign-radicalisation



> A fresh drive to prevent radicalisation of impressionable students on campus is being launched in which universities will be asked to draw up guidelines on how to handle preachers who have a track record of inciting hatred, at the end of a dramatic week that saw a soldier murdered in Woolwich in the first terror-related incident on mainland Britain since the 7 July 2005 bombings.
> Universities UK, which represents higher education institutions, launched a new campaign in an attempt to show students, unions and academics what they can do to constrain controversial preachers.
> 
> Ministers are reluctant to reach for a barrage of new legislation in the wake of the terrorist murder of a soldier outside Woolwich barracks, but recognise they need to do more to revive Labour's stalled Prevent strategy, which was introduced by the previous government in an attempt to forestall young people becoming involved with extremist groups.
> ...


 
I bet this is going to be used against leftist groups before too long. I predicted something like that a while ago although I assumed that they'd just use something like this as an excuse to outright get rid of SUs.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Not one person or group will ever do anything like this in the UK again.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-killing-universities-campaign-radicalisation
> 
> 
> 
> I bet this is going to be used against leftist groups before too long. I predicted something like that a while ago although I assumed that they'd just use something like this as an excuse to outright get rid of SUs.


What's the argument for them?


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not one person or group will ever do anything like this in the UK again.


 
i hope your right but thats a post that i fear may well be quoted some day


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i hope your right but thats a post that i fear may well be quoted some day


It''s done. That was the one off shock. They had these lads under at least under some prog they tell us about...it's over. 300 people might do this. More likely to get lynched than carry it out again.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It''s done. That was the one off shock. They had these lads under at least under some prog they tell us about...it's over. 300 people might do this. More likely to get lynched than carry it out again.


 
I'm sure I'm just being a bit thick but I don't know what you mean by this, can you explain?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I'm sure I'm just being a bit thick but I don't know what you mean by this, can you explain?


The shock value of this only happens once. There are only 300 people in the country( viewing generously) who would do this. If any of them try it they will likely end up dead.


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I wonder if the NUS are going to continue denying that extremism in universities is a problem. Hint: yes.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10079894/Woolwich-attack-suspects-former-university-played-host-to-extremists.html


over 10 years ago i personally had to have words with some of them in that society about their leaflets and we had to step into a confrontation between them and the LGBT society at a freshers fair


----------



## sptme (May 25, 2013)

ddraig said:


> over 10 years ago i personally had to have words with some of them in that society about their leaflets and we had to step into a confrontation between them and the LGBT society at a freshers fair


Was that at Manchester Uni in the late 90s?


----------



## elbows (May 25, 2013)

Bernie Gunther said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468


 
For whatever reason the BBC dont seem to have bothered to give the Kenya detention and abuse stuff that was mentioned in the newsnight interview any mention in their website stories yet.

The Guardian talks about it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/25/woolwich-suspect-kenya-torture



> Abu Nusaybah told BBC's Newsnight that Adebolajo was arrested by Kenyan authorities while studying in a village in the country last year. After refusing to answer questions, Adebolajo was told that he was "not in the UK" and was then, he claimed, sexually assaulted. On his return, "he became more reclined [sic], less talkative. He wasn't his bubbly self," said Nusaybah, who added that the experience further radicalised Adebalajo.


 


> Adebolajo had told Nusaybah how he had gone to study in a village in Kenya when he and others were rounded up by the Kenyan army. When he was interrogated, he refused to speak. "They told him, 'You are not in the UK now.' They took his private parts and said, 'We will F you.' He told me he was physically assaulted and sexually threatened. If you looked at his face, he was holding back tears," Nusaybah said.


 


> The Guardian also understands from Whitehall sources that they were aware that Adebolajo has been detained in Kenya before being deported.


 
The actual interview also suggest the possibility that it wasnt just sexual threats, but that Adebolajo was too ashamed to talk further about what happened in Kenya.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

elbows said:


> For whatever reason the BBC dont seem to have bothered to give the Kenya detention and abuse stuff that was mentioned in the newsnight interview any mention in their website stories yet.
> 
> The Guardian talks about it:
> 
> ...


 
It's here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664468


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Belushi said:


> From what I can glean from the article he grew up on council estates. Woolwich is a tough neighbourhood, a lot of deprivation. An old white community and a fairly recently arrived african community which has its own divisions, especially between Muslims and Christians. It can be a tough place to bring up kids and it can be hard to keep them out of trouble.


The African community started to get established in the 80s, many in Thamesmead but now further spread into Woolwich. In the 70s/80s it was similar deprivation - it has always been a tough neighbourhood as you say, poorer than Lewisham - but the established community was predominantly white but also West Indian. Plumstead mainly south Asian and again deprived. So West Indian conflict with African. Of the African, the main splits are north and south Nigerian, Somali, some Ghanaian. Big Sikh community, tend to own many of the local shops in Thamesmead. Most get on with Sikhs. This is very simplistic but there are lots and lots of running conflicts (eg by nationality, heritage, "race", and religious differences overlay and also cut across these), but locally managed otherwise it would be very violent a lot of the time. It's almost like "turf" except that apart from long established communities eg Plumstead High St, everyone is mixed up together so not so much in the way of geographical boundaries although it's possible to do this at street detail. The Eastern European migrants seem to have no concept of turf and upset *everyone* as all compete for few jobs/work. But it is ok if they settle. Some of the population is very transient and no-one knows who they are. Lots of different religions and services, ministers very active. Example of this: minister sets up drug rehab house in normal house in street. Minister divides up a house in a road into small rooms for students. Etc etc

Geographically it looks as though Thamesmead is some distance away, and it is, and there are a couple of retail estate type supermarkets, and small corner type shops and not much else; so people from Thamesmead go to Woolwich to go to specsavers and Poundland etc. Woolwich is hub.

Edit: this is old heartland NF, and still there. 

In some ways it resembles east end but south of the river. Also similar pattern of white movement but instead of Essex; Kent.

Example: in last couple of years one of old NF lot was doing lots of community work, he had departed from organised far right stuff years ago, said was only ever because threat to jobs etc. but he went off the straight and narrow again with brief fling with EDL before realising more of same and leaving. But council got wind of it and put paid to letting him lead stuff, not because of his old background (there's much of this) but because of the more recent dabble albeit brief.

Just more detail on your post, not disagreeing with you.


----------



## audiotech (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I think this would be great, but that the UAF would call it racist.


 
Some adherents to the UAF, who frankly haven't got a clue, are saying 'why hasn't this been reported on the TV news' - death of of an elderly man stabbed brutally coming home from prayers at his local mosque.


----------



## FNG (May 25, 2013)




----------



## Dillinger4 (May 25, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> this taking of 'likes' on facebook as representative of significant views gets wearing. The likeage variable is so huge. Theres everything from reflex likers, considered likers and everything in between. Its about as significant as someone nodding while another person says something. imo


 

absolutely.


----------



## Athos (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> It''s done. That was the one off shock. They had these lads under at least under some prog they tell us about...it's over. 300 people might do this. More likely to get lynched than carry it out again.



Where's the figure of 300 come from?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2013)

Sparta


----------



## andysays (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Not saying it's likely - in part I was trying to second guess what BA meant - but impossible? I wouldn't be so sure - if the right links were 'uncovered' rendition would be a possibility - probably not Gitmo though.


 
These two have been arrested in a pretty high-profile way, and there is an obvious criminal offence which they can (and will, I suggest) be charged with here. It seems extremely unlikely that they will instead be extraordinarily rendered elsewhere.

Can anyone point to a similar example where this has happened? As far as I remember (though I may be wrong) none of the British citizens/residents who ended up in Gitmo were arrested in the streets of Britain in the full glare of the world's media.


----------



## andysays (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The shock value of this only happens once. There are only 300 people in the country( viewing generously) who would do this. *If any of them try it they will likely end up dead*.


----------



## barney_pig (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Did Chaudary (sp?) seriously used to be a member of the SWP?


My wife remembers him clearly, but I only have a vague memory of him.


----------



## likesfish (May 25, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Some adherents to the UAF, who frankly haven't got a clue, are saying 'why hasn't this been reported on the TV news' - death of of an elderly man stabbed brutally coming home from prayers at his local mosque.



Ffs when ukip have more of a clue you know your in trouble at times like this if you cant say the right thing shut the fuck up.
  You may have an intelligent truthful point to make but its more than likely you will come across as your being a massive cunt.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> I think this would be great, but that the UAF would call it racist.


 
Its appalling that on much of the left blogo-sphere, there are reams of articles about U.k foreign policy and the EDL, but nothing on Chaudary, the radical mullahs who are spreading this ideology, its sickening and tbh , I don't want to be part of it. The STWC statement and SEYMOURS Lenin blog, S.U, all basically just go on about the EDL and UK FP, HNH no articles this week on the extremists, I have no doubt that it will be the same in the 'real word'

of course foreign policy has a part to play in this radicalisation, but the left criticised the right when it used brevik's actions to justify its views on immigration, the left shouldn't do the same now.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Ffs when ukip have more of a clue you know your in trouble at times like this if you cant say the right thing shut the fuck up.
> You may have an intelligent truthful point to make but its more than likely you will come across as your being a massive cunt.


 

Its really revealing that UKIP are being uncharacteristically silent on this, they know they are going to be a 'beneficiary' of this terrible event, the media should be asking , just why they are so quiet.

btw, spiney, good luck with your possibly 'one man' campaign for sanity on the campus


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Its appalling that on much of the left blogo-sphere, there are reams of articles about U.k foreign policy and the EDL, but nothing on Chaudary, the radical mullahs who are spreading this ideology, its sickening and tbh , I don't want to be part of it. The STWC statement and SEYMOURS Lenin blog, S.U, all basically just go on about the EDL and UK FP, HNH no articles this week on the extremists, I have no doubt that it will be the same in the 'real word'
> 
> of course foreign policy has a part to play in this radicalisation, but the left criticised the right when it used brevik's actions to justify its views on immigration, the left shouldn't do the same now.


 
trees, maybe because the 'islamic threat' is so tiny and practically invisible whereas the EDL are a pissed bunch of racists presenting an immediate threat to public order and both they and BNP are capitalising on the dead guy. the killing in woolwich is a freak event and very difficult to prevent. lone woflism and all that. chadhary is a clown. if he isnt state or heavily monitored i'll vote UKIP.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

also UKip ae being quiet as BNP and EDL are clearly exploiting the situation to boost waning public profile.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> trees, maybe because the 'islamic threat' is so tiny and practically invisible whereas the EDL are a pissed bunch of racists presenting an immediate threat to public order and both they and BNP are capitalising on the dead guy. the killing in woolwich is a freak event and very difficult to prevent. lone woflism and all that. chadhary is a clown. if he isnt state or heavily monitored i'll vote UKIP.


You think the EDL threat is large compared to that of radcial islam? Really?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

no i dont, i think it is larger and more visible.


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> trees, maybe because the 'islamic threat' is so tiny and practically invisible whereas the EDL are a pissed bunch of racists presenting an immediate threat to public order and both they and BNP are capitalising on the dead guy. the killing in woolwich is a freak event and very difficult to prevent. lone woflism and all that. chadhary is a clown. if he isnt state or heavily monitored i'll vote UKIP.



That post is preposterous. You sound in denial about what happened this week. It was real.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Its appalling that on much of the left blogo-sphere, there are reams of articles about U.k foreign policy and the EDL, but nothing on Chaudary, the radical mullahs who are spreading this ideology, its sickening and tbh , I don't want to be part of it. The STWC statement and SEYMOURS Lenin blog, S.U, all basically just go on about the EDL and UK FP, HNH no articles this week on the extremists, I have no doubt that it will be the same in the 'real word'
> 
> of course foreign policy has a part to play in this radicalisation, but the left criticised the right when it used brevik's actions to justify its views on immigration, the left shouldn't do the same now.


 
Agreed completely, I'm just disgusted by it all.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Its really revealing that UKIP are being uncharacteristically silent on this, they know they are going to be a 'beneficiary' of this terrible event, the media should be asking , just why they are so quiet.


 
they dont need to exploit it like bnp/edl as they are doing quite well all things considered.


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> no i dont, i think it is larger and more visible.



In what way?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

where to said:


> That post is preposterous. You sound in denial about what happened this week. It was real.


 
i am pointing out that there is a difference in policing EDL demos and lone wolf type things. the islamic threat is tiny. if it wasnt how come there arent loads of arrests etc?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

where to said:


> In what way?


 
that EDL are a visible presence and easy to police whereas assholes like those 2 guys are very difficult to monitor all the time. there was a guy on radio 4 on thursday i think saying that plod doesnt have enough resources to monitor everybody all the time.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> trees, maybe because the 'islamic threat' is so tiny and practically invisible whereas the EDL are a pissed bunch of racists presenting an immediate threat to public order and both they and BNP are capitalising on the dead guy. the killing in woolwich is a freak event and very difficult to prevent. lone woflism and all that. chadhary is a clown. if he isnt state or heavily monitored i'll vote UKIP.


 
People in Islamic Societies have been calling for the death of LGBT people, Muslims from other sects, the oppression of women and even worse in most universities in this country for years. It's only tiny and invisible to people because those who should look refuse to.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

How can a left, particularly an academic left which spends ages minutely dissecting todays societies and far right minutae totally ignore what J Ed and others have been been posting about what goes on in the campuses? Its not new either, twenty years ago, (not ten) Hizbut were organising on my old campus, not a word from the SWP, etc, Special Branch were called in, the left knew about it, the same week, a ridiculous letter came to the Union from someone purporting to be from C18, mass hysteria from them and a call to have a mass demo, which thankfully was resisted.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

yes i know. they are twats. but they dont actually DO anything do they apart from preach to the converted. 'It's only tiny and invisible to people because those who should look refuse to.' like who?


----------



## likesfish (May 25, 2013)

Which proves the point somepeople are fucking clueless there is a time and a place.
   When DI died had to physically restrain somebody who wanted to talk to the daily mail on behalf of brighton unemployed centre
  Because that would have done the org so much credit not.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> yes i know. they are twats. but they dont actually DO anything do they apart from preach to the converted. 'It's only tiny and invisible to people because those who should look refuse to.' like who?


 
Several students who have been radicalised by these societies have gone on to become terrorists, including possibly the latest attackers.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> How can a left, particularly an academic left which spends ages minutely dissecting todays societies and far right minutae totally ignore what J Ed and others have been been posting about what goes on in the campuses? Its not new either, twenty years ago, (not ten) Hizbut were organising on my old campus, not a word from the SWP, etc, Special Branch were called in, the left knew about it, the same week, a ridiculous letter came to the Union from someone purporting to be from C18, mass hysteria from them and a call to have a mass demo, which thankfully was resisted.


 
Seriously? This has been going on for twenty years? For fuck sake.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

i know but im not sure what you mean when you say those 'who should be looking but are refusing?'


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> yes i know. they are twats. but they dont actually DO anything do they apart from preach to the converted. 'It's only tiny and invisible to people because those who should look refuse to.' like who?


 

eh, didn't you read the Guardian article about SHU that J Ed posted up, one of the Islamic Societies members blew himself up in Tel Aviv killing innocents, didn't you read they they 'groom' young students, especially international ones who may be in a later position to do something about it..

useful idiots indeed.

btw, a I've mentioned  before, a friend of mine from STWC days, a lovely bloke, tried to set up a 'reform muslim' group, he was shocked and quite alarmed by the responses he got.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

no i didnt. who are supposed to be watching but arent? thats 1 incident. lets not blow it out of proportion. im not denying they are twats and dangerous but the 'threat' seems considerably larger than the actuality. im not denying that there are a few out there.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i know but im not sure what you mean when you say those 'who should be looking but are refusing?'


 
Anti-fascist student activists, student politicians in the student unions where it is happening and ultimately the NUS.


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> that EDL are a visible presence and easy to police whereas assholes like those 2 guys are very difficult to monitor all the time. there was a guy on radio 4 on thursday i think saying that plod doesnt have enough resources to monitor everybody all the time.



So who why are Edl the massive threat we should be getting all worked up about? In your own words theyre just pissed up racists that the police are well on top of.

You're going round in circles.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

i am not saying they are a 'massive threat' i said they are bigger and more visible than the islamic bellends.


----------



## JimW (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Seriously? This has been going on for twenty years? For fuck sake.


 
Lot of it about when I was at SOAS getting on for twenty years ago. I got involved in having a go against it on an individual basis but i was a bit semi-detached from student politics (mature student and did degree in two chunks with time out to work in the middle).


----------



## likesfish (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Its really revealing that UKIP are being uncharacteristically silent on this, they know they are going to be a 'beneficiary' of this terrible event, the media should be asking , just why they are so quiet.
> 
> btw, spiney, good luck with your possibly 'one man' campaign for sanity on the campus



Maybe they actually have some party discipline after all?


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> no i didnt. who are supposed to be watching but arent? thats 1 incident. lets not blow it out of proportion. im not denying they are twats and dangerous but the 'threat' seems considerably larger than the actuality. im not denying that there are a few out there.


 
It isn't just one case though, is it? 

Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the Detroit shoebomber, was the head of the Islamic Society at UCL.

How many more examples do you need?


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

Big part of the left has a history on this sort of looking away, Russia, Hungary, Checkozovakia(sic)


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> i am not saying they are a 'massive threat' i said they are bigger and more visible than the islamic bellends.



You said Edl are a threat to public order but Islamist extremists are not.  Its ludicrous.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

UCL Islamic Society has long been worrying. They were pulled up a couple of years ago for not allowing women to speak at meetings. If a woman had something to say, she had to tell a man, who would then say it for her. More recently, Lawrence Krauss walked out of a meeting arranged by them because they insisted on segregated seating.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> no i dont, i think it is larger and more visible.


So why did you say what you said? That the edl presents a real ongoing threat whereas radical islam presents a tiny threat (wer're talking relatively here, in comparison to each other). Why say that? 


 I tell you what, most of the left this week have dug that trench between them and the class that little bit deeper and that little bit wider this week. Precisely through stuff like the above.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> yes i know. they are twats. but they dont actually DO anything do they apart from preach to the converted. 'It's only tiny and invisible to people because those who should look refuse to.' like who?


You. The left groups on campus.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

i am saying that the threat is visible than the reality appears to be. yes there are a few examples and they are twats. these things are very difficult to police as they are lone operators.  however, do you not feel there is a political reason behind inflating the threat as well as job creation in the security services?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

i said 'maybe because the 'islamic threat' is so tiny and practically invisible whereas the EDL are a pissed bunch of racists presenting an immediate threat to public order' and therefore easier to police.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

is the reason why so few islamic twats have been arrested is cos there are so few?


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i am saying that the threat is visible than the reality appears to be. yes there are a few examples and they are twats. these things are very difficult to police as they are lone operators. however, do you not feel there is a political reason behind inflating the threat as well as job creation in the security services?


 
If there were groups on campus where right-wing students were listening year after year to preachers who called for the death of Muslims would that be a tiny and almost invisible problem if it (mostly) wasn't acted upon?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You. The left groups on campus.


 
no J ED said that.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

i cant speak for students but if there were loads of islamics surely there would be loads of arrests. there isnt. so therefore the facts appear that perhaps it isnt that large a threat. tho obviously lone wolves can still operate.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i am saying that the threat is visible than the reality appears to be. yes there are a few examples and they are twats. these things are very difficult to police as they are lone operators. however, do you not feel there is a political reason behind inflating the threat as well as job creation in the security services?


Inflating the threat? You've spent two years running after the edl offering to blow up their balloons. I'm shaking my head here - what do you think happened this week? I'm not talking about the policing here btw - i'm talking about the politics of it. These non-threatening fundies managed to do in a few hours exactly what the edl could not in a few years.


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Let's not forget Kollerstrom and UCL, too.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> no J ED said that.


You asked who the groups being ignored on campus should have been visible to. I replied: You and the left groups on campus.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> If there were groups on campus where right-wing students were listening year after year to preachers who called for the death of Muslims would that be a tiny and almost invisible problem if it (mostly) wasn't acted upon?


 

yes, Harrington was one person and he had half the college on his back, doesn't wash.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You asked who the groups being ignored on campus should have been visible to. I replied: You and the left groups on campus.


 
oh i see, apologies.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You asked who the groups being ignored on campus should have been visible to. I replied: You and the left groups on campus.


 
i have no influence over any campus so i am not sure what i am supposed to do.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.


 
Are these people really so different from fascists? They seem to be espousing exactly the same sorts of beliefs to me. I think we should treat homophobia, misogyny and religious sectarianism with exactly the same intolerance regardless of who it is coming from both because that is the right thing to do and because tactically if you don't you're not only aiding the Islamists but also the EDL.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

@maletesa

Rubbish, you spend exhortionate amount of time, energy, resources, etc attempting to defeat the EDL, often with students help, you have one big blind spot


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.



I don't think you have any strategy. You're just responding to emotions.

Have you ever read islamists in their own words? It is honestly very useful.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

It's too late now anyway, there is already more than enough here to allow the government to depoliticise and probably abolish student unions. SUs failed to police themselves but the state is going to be more than happy to step into the breach in a way that fucks us all over.

I knew this was going to happen, fucking idiots.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> butchers, how big do you think the islamic threat is. the reason why antifascists chase fascists is because we are antifascists, thats what we do. the islamic thing demands completely different strategies.


The threat to who and what? _You_ must have some basis for deciding the edl are a bigger threat. This week i have seen fundies force racist division to the forefront of any national public politics. The edl spent years trying to do just that and failed utterly. As you have spent week after week documenting. This is why the fundies are a bigger threat to re-establishing class based politics - that's the threat that i'm on about here. What threat are you on about?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Are these people really so different from fascists? They seem to be espousing exactly the same sorts of beliefs to me. I think we should treat homophobia, misogyny and religious sectarianism with exactly the same intolerance regardless of who it is coming from both because that is the right thing to do and because tactically if you don't you're not only aiding the Islamists but also the EDL.


 
the way they organise is different, ie in their commnuities, mosques etc. they dont march about and even when choudry has done he has had about 25 bellends - including wives - so they hardly represent a threat to many people's communities directly. im not saying they are not a threat. im trying to get some sense of proportion.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> @maletesa
> 
> Rubbish, you spend exhortionate amount of time, energy, resources, etc attempting to defeat the EDL, often with students help, you have one big blind spot


 
what? i am not a student. i dont work on a campus. i have very few mates who are students. i am glad students turn up at antiEDL things but are you suggesting i have some influence on em? im not quite clear rhere.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> the way they organise is different, ie in their commnuities, mosques etc. they dont march about and even when choudry has done he has had about 25 bellends - including wives - so they hardly represent a threat to many people's communities directly. im not saying they are not a threat. im trying to get some sense of proportion.


 
None of this is true


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

where to said:


> I don't think you have any strategy. You're just responding to emotions.
> 
> Have you ever read islamists in their own words? It is honestly very useful.


 
who me personally or antifascists in general? the strategy at the moment is one of swamping areas and surrounding fascists to prevent them moving in the community. brighton this year was testament to that as it was last year with bristol, walth etc. and there were lots of students there too i am glad to say.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

None of this is true[/quote]

'the way they organise is different, ie in their commnuities, mosques etc.' 
Mal: they dont let EDL organise in there do they? so true. they dont do big demos. true? they dont march about and even when choudry has done he has had about 25 bellends - including wives - so they hardly represent a threat to many people's communities directly. have yo seen choudrys group? theyre fucken tiny!


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> who me personally or antifascists in general? the strategy at the moment is one of swamping areas and surrounding fascists to prevent them moving in the community. brighton this year was testament to that as it was last year with bristol, walth etc. and there were lots of students there too i am glad to say.



That's a tactic, not a strategy.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

the strategy is to outnumber, out propagandise and out organise in your communities


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2013)

JEd, to me it feels kind of superfluous to condemn radical islam - it would be almost ritualistic in a really pointless way. To the people who would listen to me it is already obviously bonkers. Those who are susceptible to it aren't likely to listen to me. I'm kind of happy to leave the battle against extremists to muslims - since they share much more language and have more credibility with the extremists.

I kind of agree with a lot of this post http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.c...resist-having-our-enemies-constructed-for-us/

Is it guilty of some error for not including a paragraph saying: "Jihadist islam of this extreme type is wrong and so I condemn it and encourage people not to be involved in it"? I don't think it would be a meaningful thing to add to it.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

So you would let the societies invite the fanatics onto the campuses, sounds like appeasement to me..


----------



## shygirl (May 25, 2013)

OMG, that arrest following newsnight interview is really scary.  I haven't watched the interview, but it seems he was reporting what he knew of his friend.  Why would this warrant arrest and house search?  Does this mean that people will be put off speaking publicly?


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> So you would let the societies invite the fanatics onto the campuses, sounds like appeasement to me..


No, I was more replying to an earlier stage of the argument where it was about the commentary from the left and the fact they weren't condemning radical islam. Where you can take *action* against bigotted and violent ideologies you should.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Brainaddict said:


> JEd, to me it feels kind of superfluous to condemn radical islam - it would be almost ritualistic in a really pointless way. To the people who would listen to me it is already obviously bonkers. Those who are susceptible to it aren't likely to listen to me. I'm kind of happy to leave the battle against extremists to muslims - since they share much more language and have more credibility with the extremists.
> 
> I kind of agree with a lot of this post http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.c...resist-having-our-enemies-constructed-for-us/
> 
> Is it guilty of some error for not including a paragraph saying: "Jihadist islam of this extreme type is wrong and so I condemn it and encourage people not to be involved in it"? I don't think it would be a meaningful thing to add to it.


Not sure that you're being asked to condemn radical islam (and its telling that politics has bow becoem a matter of simply openly condemning an idea or series of ideas) but to understand what it's doing and where it comes from and by extension how to stop if being produced. Saying _but the edl are racist! Nick robinson said muslim appearance_ doesn't do this - it refuses to do it in fact. This is a demand to look at society politically - not to condemn or take formal positions.


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> when choudry has done he has had about 25 bellends - including wives


 
It would be a grave error to assume that the women are merely passively trailing along.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

Brainaddict said:


> No, I was more replying to an earlier stage of the argument where it was about the commentary from the left and the fact they weren't condemning radical islam. Where you can take *action* against bigotted and violent ideologies you should.


In the context of university societies, I think it's quite a straightforward thing. EG: a university has a policy for equal opportunities and non-discrimination on the basis of gender or sexual orientation. Anyone who cannot comply with this policy simply is not allowed to use any university facilities.

This would be very straightforward to implement, but it isn't implemented in many places.


----------



## JimW (May 25, 2013)

shygirl said:


> OMG, that arrest following newsnight interview is really scary. I haven't watched the interview, but it seems he was reporting what he knew of his friend. Why would this warrant arrest and house search? Does this mean that people will be put off speaking publicly?


 
Seems bizarre - I did watch and he came across as a bright and thoughtful young lad who had no time for this particular action. if police/spooks had further questions to ask they could have done that without an arrest I would think.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> the strategy is to outnumber, out propagandise and out organise in your communities



Tactics, not strategies.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the context of university societies, I think it's quite a straightforward thing. EG: a university has a policy for equal opportunities and non-discrimination on the basis of gender or sexual orientation. Anyone who cannot comply with this policy simply is not allowed to use any university facilities.
> 
> This would be very straightforward to implement, but it isn't implemented in many places.


Failing that we could get Left to impose neuroscience on them.


----------



## shygirl (May 25, 2013)

I see that the Met have said his arrest had nothing to do with his comments in the interview, however, it will still have the effect of deterring people from speaking publicly, in my view.  Btw, how did they know about the interview if it hadn't yet been broadcast?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I see that the Met have said his arrest had nothing to do with his comments in the interview, however, it will still have the effect of deterring people from speaking publicly, in my view. Btw, how did they know about the interview if it hadn't yet been broadcast?


I suspect, as someone suggested last night, it means, _here you go everyone else who may know anything at all_ - _you come to us *or we come to you.*_


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not sure that you're being asked to condemn radical islam (and its telling that politics has bow becoem a matter of simply openly condemning an idea or series of ideas) but to understand what it's doing and where it comes from and by extension how to stop if being produced. Saying _but the edl are racist! Nick robinson said muslim appearance_ doesn't do this - it refuses to do it in fact. This is a demand to look at society politically - not to condemn or take formal positions.


So people look at the issue politically and decide they want to talk about our foreign policy. Which they should. It would be silly not to, and it is something in which we are theoretically implicated (if you buy the liberal democracy stuff). But politically there is little most people can do about radical islam. There are a few strategies like no-platforming and so on, but most people in the UK will never encounter it in their daily lives. What political strategies do you suggest?


----------



## JimW (May 25, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I see that the Met have said his arrest had nothing to do with his comments in the interview, however, it will still have the effect of deterring people from speaking publicly, in my view. Btw, how did they know about the interview if it hadn't yet been broadcast?


 
Can't be short of touts and assets at the BBC!


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Brainaddict said:


> So people look at the issue politically and decide they want to talk about our foreign policy. Which they should. It would be silly not to, and it is something in which we are theoretically implicated (if you buy the liberal democracy stuff). But politically there is little most people can do about radical islam. There are a few strategies like no-platforming and so on, but most people in the UK will never encounter it in their daily lives. What political strategies do you suggest?


Barbecues.


----------



## shygirl (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.


 
'takes wife' - might said wife not want to go herself?!!  I took my child on quite a few demos in the 80's/90's, but if there was any sign of trouble (which happened on a couple of occasions), I would leave immediately.  I don't class myself as a nob for taking him, tho'.  Our kids our constantly exposed to mainstream thinking/propaganda, it doesn't hurt for them to be exposed to the alternatives.  I don't know what demo you referred to in particular, but there are some that you might think twice about taking kids on.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

where to said:


> Tactics, not strategies.


any suggestions? i would have thought organising counts as strategy.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

shygirl said:


> 'takes wife' - might said wife not want to go herself?!! I took my child on quite a few demos in the 80's/90's, but if there was any sign of trouble (which happened on a couple of occasions), I would leave immediately. I don't class myself as a nob for taking him, tho'. Our kids our constantly exposed to mainstream thinking/propaganda, it doesn't hurt for them to be exposed to the alternatives. I don't know what demo you referred to in particular, but there are some that you might think twice about taking kids on.


 
i am talking about choudhary and EDL taking kids to potentially violent situations. not meant to be strictly serious!


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

EDL have a 1000 in newcastle and 80 in manchester.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

JimW said:


> Can't be short of touts and assets at the BBC!


 
orwell.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> EDL have a 1000 in newcastle and 80 in manchester.


And yet have not made any impact like what these killers did earlier in the week.


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.


 
And people who take husband and kids on a demo are... ?

There's a point here.

1) I have no reason to believe that the younger women who say they're insisting on wearing bigger and blacker veils, to the distress of their parents, are lying.

2) On no more basis than this, I can safely conclude that any attempt to counter the Salafist tendency (e.g. on the fringes of the Saudi-funded East London Mosque) must include contact with women - and the reality is that that must be _by_ women.


----------



## where to (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> any suggestions? i would have thought organising counts as strategy.



Before strategy you need to understand what your opponent is talking about. better than your opponent does.


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.


FFS


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

crivvens, is there a humour drought on U75 today? ' _2/ short of members! so to speak.' women , no members. _


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

Leave politics to the mans mal.


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> crivvens, is there a humour drought on U75 today? '_2/ short of members! so to speak.' women , no members. _


 
No, just a determination to point out some things that must be considered before you begin thinking about tactics, even.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

exits to bathe dogs ...


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

manny-p said:


> I was never angry. I am sitting here perfectly calm writing this. Out of all the posters who post here, you have a very academic style of writing. I don't understand what you are saying half the time so perhaps that's why I may have mis read what you have said. I don't know why you write the way you do, maybe you could tone it down abit and stop speaking in tongues.


Meant to reply to this first bit last night - pretty sure you can't call my posting style academic! 

I really don't get this speaking in tongues thing  - i write pretty plainly and say what i mean as best and as simply as i can. That might mean something allusive sometimes, but it's never fucking show offy stuff like articul8 or people like that.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

Brainaddict said:


> Those who are susceptible to it aren't likely to listen to me. I'm kind of happy to leave the battle against extremists to muslims - since they share much more language and have more credibility with the extremists.


 
How far are you willing to go with this logic? Should Muslim ticket inspectors be the only ones to fine Muslims who try to dodge fares? How far into Scientology should a Scientologist policeman be before he is able to arrest an operating thetan?

Why is it that this logic isn't applied to middle-class anti-fascists when they confront working-class fascists? For that matter, should working-class anti-fascists steer clear of middle-class fascists, since they don't share the same language and they lack credibility with the extremists?


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Meant to reply to this first bit last night - pretty sure you can't call my posting style academic!


 

Completely academic, I'd say.


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Completely academic, I'd say.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> Then it changes, obviously. But if they went to a more IRA-like strategy they'd also lose the advantages dylanredefined described. But we can only really look at what they're doing now unless we have information to suggest a change in tactics is in the pipeline can't we?
> 
> I think the whole martyr's death thing, with the virgins and whatnot, is an important part of the motivation though, even if its importance is often exaggerated and so this might stop that kind of change taking place, or at least shape what form that change might take.


 
I think the "heavenly rewards" _schtick_ is frankly overplayed.  It may well have been true of the early _Mujahideen_ and the more religiously-motivated (the whole "cleansing Allah's lands of the infidel" vibe), but as a motivation for a pair of converts?
It very obviously serves as *justification* for participating in a suicide attack, but motivation is usually more personal, and a majority of the time is based on ideas of revenge. It could be argued that conversion from Christianity to Islam is sometimes an act of revenge against family and culture. Perhaps, for these men, their search for death was an extension of that? An attack against a culture that didn't embrace them, that made life harder or more painful than they thought it should be?
One thing I can say with reasonable certainty - growing up in Kidbrooke and its' environs won't have been a cakewalk for anyone non-white, and that could have added to any alienation the killers felt.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

Brainaddict said:


> So people look at the issue politically and decide they want to talk about our foreign policy. Which they should. It would be silly not to, and it is something in which we are theoretically implicated (if you buy the liberal democracy stuff). But politically there is little most people can do about radical islam. There are a few strategies like no-platforming and so on, but most people in the UK will never encounter it in their daily lives. What political strategies do you suggest?


Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:

No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.

It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> How far are you willing to go with this logic? Should Muslim ticket inspectors be the only ones to fine Muslims who try to dodge fares? How far into Scientology should a Scientologist policeman be before he is able to arrest an operating thetan?
> 
> Why is it that this logic isn't applied to middle-class anti-fascists when they confront working-class fascists?


It's about what is useful. When I have had the opportunity to engage in face to face arguments I have tried. I had a friend (he became less so over time) at university who said he thought the 9/11 attacks were justified. Obviously I argued with him because I knew him. I didn't feel it would be helpful to track down others on campus who felt the same way - in general I felt that the arguments of a white almost-atheist would if anything help confirm them in their beliefs. Similiarly a demonstration against a radical group on campus would likely just make them feel right in believing the western world hates islam.

Similarly I tend not to bother arguing about Palestine with most Israelis any more. My attempts to do it in the past have made me feel it is mostly counterproductive. But I did argue with an Israeli about it recently because he was very left wing and I felt we had enough common ground for it to be worthwhile. Just depends what you think is useful, no?


----------



## butchersapron (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:
> 
> No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.
> 
> It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.


Or attack them and chase them out. Don't bother with all that legal guff.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Of course it has.
> 
> How do you persuade people who are obsessed, to the level that they will kill themselves for their 'cause' though?
> 
> The fanatics are not going to listen to reason, and although small in number, can wreak substantial havoc, as has been demonstrated on both sides of the pond.


 
You don't have to be obsessed or a fanatic to do any of the above. Pathologising "the enemy" may be handy in terms of stirring up the general populace, but it doesn't really help us see why such people have acted as they did, and how to counteract it.



> Unless there is help from within the Muslim community, identifying and stopping these people is impossible.


 
You're assuming that these people are necessarily integrated into their local "Muslim communities". That's a flawed assumption, as our security services have found out repeatedly.



> There is a huge problem here, which is that a small number of people, working in isolated cells can be undetectable, until something happens. Manufacturing a car bomb is relatively simple. I would expect that to happen. (It has been tried, but due to 'technical difficulties', thankfully none has exploded.)
> 
> As I see it, the problem is insurmountable, it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.


 
Well, quite. Insurgency, for *whatever* reason, is hard to fight, just as the ideas that people are willing to die for are hard to erase.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

Brainaddict said:


> JEd, to me it feels kind of superfluous to condemn radical islam - it would be almost ritualistic in a really pointless way. To the people who would listen to me it is already obviously bonkers. Those who are susceptible to it aren't likely to listen to me. I'm kind of happy to leave the battle against extremists to muslims - since they share much more language and have more credibility with the extremists.
> 
> I kind of agree with a lot of this post http://scriptonitedaily.wordpress.c...resist-having-our-enemies-constructed-for-us/
> 
> Is it guilty of some error for not including a paragraph saying: "Jihadist islam of this extreme type is wrong and so I condemn it and encourage people not to be involved in it"? I don't think it would be a meaningful thing to add to it.


 
but HNH, UAF attempt to undermine and discredit BNP and the EDL all the time, partly to try to stop them having legitimacy, the same haven't done this with Chaudary/Radical Islam, why couldn't they create one of their united fronts with progressive Muslims against these knobs, in the case of the SWP, they have actually collaborated with these dubious mullahs, etc, Harman while in egypt even agreed with the Cairo Statement which said Nato ships which tried to blockade Palestine would be an acceptable target.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Or attack them and chase them out. Don't bother with all that legal guff.


Yes, that too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

1%er said:


> It makes one wonder when the first Brit will be killed by weapons supplied by the British government to some very doggie groups right now. It would seem that some Americans have been killed in Libya by weapons supplied to opposition groups by the USA.


 
Happened in the 18th century, I believe, when muskets supplied by the redcoats to native American tribesmen to kill Frenchies were used to kill redcoats.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think the "heavenly rewards" _schtick_ is frankly overplayed. It may well have been true of the early _Mujahideen_ and the more religiously-motivated (the whole "cleansing Allah's lands of the infidel" vibe), but as a motivation for a pair of converts?
> It very obviously serves as *justification* for participating in a suicide attack, but motivation is usually more personal, and a majority of the time is based on ideas of revenge. It could be argued that conversion from Christianity to Islam is sometimes an act of revenge against family and culture. Perhaps, for these men, their search for death was an extension of that? An attack against a culture that didn't embrace them, that made life harder or more painful than they thought it should be?
> One thing I can say with reasonable certainty - growing up in Kidbrooke and its' environs won't have been a cakewalk for anyone non-white, and that could have added to any alienation the killers felt.


 
I don't think it's a primary motivation (in fact in that post I did say that its influence is exaggerated) but I don't think it should be ignored either - it helps shape the form the attacks take and it's become almost like a core tenet of the theological justifications - I don't think it could be abandoned, and the conclusions it leads to abandoned (ie martyrs death etc) for instrumental reasons at the flick of a switch so to speak.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:
> 
> No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.
> 
> It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.


 
The local NUS comes down heavily on Christian societies if they break the rules, hypocrisiy


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

I still hope Spiney organises a working class week, now that would put the cat amongst the pigeons


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well, anyone at a university could check out the Islamic society if there is one and make sure they are complying with university rules on discrimination. And the Christian society and all other societies. They could make sure the university's rules on discrimination aren't fucked up too - it seems many are. People seem to get in a twist over this when the solution is very straightforward:
> 
> No discrimination allowed on basis of gender, race, sexual orientation or religious/political belief. But, where there is conflict between these considerations, gender/race/sexual orientation trumps political/religious belief. In other words, you cannot justify discrimination on the basis of belief.
> 
> It would be very easy to draw up a policy along these lines, but many places don't.


 
You're missing out one of the most important factors in this, and the real reason why it's not tackled - politics.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think the "heavenly rewards" _schtick_ is frankly overplayed. It may well have been true of the early _Mujahideen_ and the more religiously-motivated (the whole "cleansing Allah's lands of the infidel" vibe), but as a motivation for a pair of converts?
> It very obviously serves as *justification* for participating in a suicide attack, but motivation is usually more personal, and a majority of the time is based on ideas of revenge. It could be argued that conversion from Christianity to Islam is sometimes an act of revenge against family and culture. Perhaps, for these men, their search for death was an extension of that? An attack against a culture that didn't embrace them, that made life harder or more painful than they thought it should be?
> One thing I can say with reasonable certainty - growing up in Kidbrooke and its' environs won't have been a cakewalk for anyone non-white, and that could have added to any alienation the killers felt.


Yep, I agree with this. The virgins in heaven stuff is way overplayed. After all, the originators of the modern suicide attack tactic, the Tamil Tigers, were not primarily a religious group at all, and virtually all suicide attackers have a clearly identifiable secular agenda - invariably nationalist in some form or another.


----------



## 1%er (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Happened in the 18th century, I believe, when muskets supplied by the redcoats to native American tribesmen to kill Frenchies were used to kill redcoats.


LOL History repeating itself

I was thinking about the weapons they seem to be giving to groups whose ideology they can not be sure of  (This is now being talked about in the USA because of the embassy bombing in Libya)


----------



## sptme (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> crivvens, is there a humour drought on U75 today? '_2/ short of members! so to speak.' women , no members. _


Oh, the lack of humour ripost, well done! Why don't you just admit you said something stupid?


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In the context of university societies, I think it's quite a straightforward thing. EG: a university has a policy for equal opportunities and non-discrimination on the basis of gender or sexual orientation. Anyone who cannot comply with this policy simply is not allowed to use any university facilities.
> 
> This would be very straightforward to implement, but it isn't implemented in many places.


 
look at the havoc it caused in the BNP when they were forced to accept ethnic minority members . And Al Capone got done for tax evasion . Those bozos could be wiped out on campus with small print if even an ounce of the right pressure was applied .


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> You're missing out one of the most important factors in this, and the real reason why it's not tackled - politics.


Well the only place I've read up on a bit is UCL. And at least in the past, the university authorities appear to have been in a total muddle over it. It's the kind of thing attacked as 'multi-culturalism', I guess, but imo it's simply being confused.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well the only place I've read up on a bit is UCL. And at least in the past, the university authorities appear to have been in a total muddle over it. It's the kind of thing attacked as 'multi-culturalism', I guess, but imo it's simply being confused.


 
What do you think would happen if the SU's tried to implement the kind of policies you mentioned (ones that I completely agree with by the way)?

That's the reason why it doesn't happen - especially as those running the SU's more often than not have their eye on a future Labour Party candidacy.


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, that too.


Most unis have those equal opps/discrimination policies it's just that the students don't necessarily think it applies to them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

coley said:


> Aye and if these two in Woolwich and the tube bombers had been from Iraq, Afghanistan I could have been halfway there to understanding their actions, it's trying to get a handle on home grown radicalisation which bothers me.


 
Because you're thinking in terms of a rationalist secular set of reasons for it.  You'd do better to think "if I were a deeply devout member of a religious culture that I felt was under attack, what would I do?", because that's where some of these people are coming from. Add to that the weight of being a person from a minority in a land where most of our politico-legal infrastructure is still institutionally racist, classist and sexist, and radicalisation *against* the majority culture comes to seem less of a big step, and more of a "natural progression" for a minority, akin to joining a gang where it's you and your fellow members against the world, often with just the same sense of nihilism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

felixthecat said:


> Thought everyone knew this after Oklahoma City! Most country dwellers also know it - farmers use the same for blowing tree stumps out of field so they don't get in the way of the machinery.
> 
> Its no big secret.


 
Nope, and still easy as piss to nick from barns across the UK.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> Most unis have those equal opps/discrimination policies it's just that the students don't necessarily think it applies to them.


 
There are ways around some of this legislation. For example, NUS Vice President of Welfare Pete Mercer justifies enforced gender segregation at events at British Unis on the basis that it's no different to feminist self-organising.

He sort of seems like he has a point until you realise that it definitlely isn't *self*-organising and it isn't feminist...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because you're thinking in terms of a rationalist secular set of reasons for it. You'd do better to think "if I were a deeply devout member of a religious culture that I felt was under attack, what would I do?", because that's where some of these people are coming from. Add to that the weight of being a person from a minority in a land where most of our politico-legal infrastructure is still institutionally racist, classist and sexist, and radicalisation *against* the majority culture comes to seem less of a big step, and more of a "natural progression" for a minority, akin to joining a gang where it's you and your fellow members against the world, often with just the same sense of nihilism.


This is an important discussion that I doubt we will see from the political classes - what is it about _Britain_ that it produces such people?


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> There are ways around some of this legislation. For example, NUS Vice President of Welfare Pete Mercer justifies enforced gender segregation at events at British Unis on the basis that it's no different to feminist self-organising.
> 
> He sort of seems like he has a point until you realise that it definitlely isn't *self*-organising and it isn't feminist...


Aye. It's a two pronged attack really. When something like this is identified, chase the organisers out and make a massive fuss to the uni bosses about unlawful discrimination.


----------



## Corax (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone who takes *wife* and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.


Say *what* mal?


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Corax said:


> Say *what* mal?


Why did you underline wife rather than takes?


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is an important discussion that I doubt we will see from the political classes - what is it about _Britain_ that it produces such people?


 
thats what really needs looked at imho . To me it looked like right away a convenient excuse to say radical islam is responsible for producing these people and for the powers that be to absolve themselves of any hand in creating the conditions and motivating factors. I think its only one piece of the jigsaw, no doubt an important one, but there has to be a lot more to it than that .


----------



## littlebabyjesus (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> What do you think would happen if the SU's tried to implement the kind of policies you mentioned (ones that I completely agree with by the way)?


I might be being thick here, but what would happen? Counter-protests from excluded discriminatory groups? That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing - it would force the debate out into the open.


----------



## 1%er (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, and still easy as piss to nick from barns across the UK.


Is that really true 

I was thinking how lucky the people of the UK were that their government banned guns and made access to bomb making materials (such as fertilizer)  very difficult.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nope, and still easy as piss to nick from barns across the UK.


 
_More than half a ton of ammonium nitrate fertiliser, a basic ingredient of home-made explosives, was discovered at dawn in a self-storage depot in the west London suburb of Hanwell._

_http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...foiled-by-raids-in-the-heart-of-suburbia.html_


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I might be being thick here, but what would happen? Counter-protests from excluded discriminatory groups? That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing - it would force the debate out into the open.


 
Depends. Usually what happens when there is sufficient opposition at a university to an extremist speaking at an Islamic Society event the NUS and the SU say nothing, when forced to say something they tell those organising the opposition to go and talk to the people who are inviting people to lecture with a history of calling for their deaths. Then by and large someone goes over their head to the actual university management who then either ignore it or ensure the talk doesn't happen by cancelling it citing room booking issues. Repeat ad nauseum.

Oh, and throughout all of this some left groups organise solidarity events with the Islamic Society and tell them that what is happening to them is Islamophobic while totally ignoring how awful the people are who the society keeps inviting. Which inevitably can be argued somehow by the attraction of some Islamophobes to the opposition to these sorts of events.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I might be being thick here, but what would happen? Counter-protests from excluded discriminatory groups? That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing - it would force the debate out into the open.


 
again i dont live in england but i do get a distinct sense of some people on the left subconciously checking their privilege when it comes to dealing with utterly unacceptable shit that comes from some ethnic minority groups . The plain fact is that if a white englishman was saying some of this stuff theyd go through him for a short cut . Add a bit of extra pigmentation to the skin mix and its like the vicar called round Terry and Junes house and got his cock out....._more tea ?_ while completely ignoring it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Depends. Usually what happens when there is sufficient opposition at a university to an extremist speaking at an Islamic Society event the NUS and the SU say nothing, when forced to say something they tell those organising the opposition to go and talk to the people who are inviting people to lecture with a history of calling for their deaths. Then by and large someone goes over their head to the actual university management who then either ignore it or ensure the talk doesn't happen by cancelling it citing room booking issues. Repeat ad nauseum.
> 
> Oh, and throughout all of some left groups organise solidarity events with the Islamic Society and tell them that what is happening to them is Islamophobic while totally ignoring how awful the people are who the society keeps inviting.


All this sort of thing was going on back in the early 90s with hizb ut tahrir. It's disappointing that 20 years on the lessons learned at the time haven't been taken on board by either student unions or universities


----------



## sptme (May 25, 2013)

http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/black-youth-terrorism-and-moral-blindness


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> _More than half a ton of ammonium nitrate fertiliser, a basic ingredient of home-made explosives, was discovered at dawn in a self-storage depot in the west London suburb of Hanwell._
> 
> _http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...foiled-by-raids-in-the-heart-of-suburbia.html_


my plan to corner the london fertiliser market foiled


----------



## 1%er (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> _More than half a ton of ammonium nitrate fertiliser, a basic ingredient of home-made explosives, was discovered at dawn in a self-storage depot in the west London suburb of Hanwell._
> 
> _http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...foiled-by-raids-in-the-heart-of-suburbia.html_


Fuck me, that would make one hell of a bang.


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> my plan to corner the london fertiliser market foiled


 
You can re-launch it:



> By John Steele, Home Affairs Correspondent
> 12:05AM BST 31 Mar *2004*


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

sptme said:


> http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/black-youth-terrorism-and-moral-blindness


 
Good but terrifying article. Seems like the establishment really has been wilfully blind to extremism in a lot of institutions.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

ill just add here that home made stuff ..everything from anfo to rockets, boosters, propellants etc has been a pretty major feature of the syrian jihadist armoury . And hundreds of these guys have been over there and are still going . One way flight to turkeys barely a few hundred quid .

thank fuck i live in Ireland, that england is full of bloody terrorists


----------



## Idris2002 (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i
> thank fuck i live in Ireland, that england is full of bloody terrorists


 
The ironyfulness is terrific. As is the irony involved in this, if it's confirmed:



> Separately, it was claimed MI5 asked Woolwich murder suspect Michael Adebolajo if he wanted to work for them about six months before the killing, a childhood friend has said.
> Abu Nusaybah told BBC Newsnight his friend - one of two men arrested after Drummer Lee Rigby’s murder in London on Wednesday - had rejected the approach.
> The BBC said it could not obtain any confirmation from Whitehall sources.


 
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/mi5-offered-job-to-woolwich-suspect-1.1406609?page=1


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2013)

laptop said:


> You can re-launch it:


So it'll still be in the lock-up


----------



## Corax (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> Why did you underline wife rather than takes?


The thing that stuck out most to me was woman = too delicate to be on a rufty-tufty demo.  You might 'take' your male mate to a demo, but not your precious betrothed...   There's a point to be made about 'takes' too, but that's not what struck me most.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> @maletesa
> 
> Rubbish, you spend exhortionate amount of time, energy, resources, etc attempting to defeat the EDL, often with students help, you have one big blind spot


 
Do you mean "exorbitant" or "extortionate"?
Either way, anti-fascists have limited resources. Independent anti-fascists don't tend to be state-funded, that's for the likes of UAF and HnH.


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Corax said:


> The thing that stuck out most to me was woman = too delicate to be on a rufty-tufty demo . There's a point to be made about 'takes' too, but that's not what struck me most.


The sexism was in the inherent assumption that the wife would be taken rather than deciding for herself.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

oooh hes in trouble now


----------



## Corax (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> The sexism was in the inherent assumption that the wife would be taken rather than deciding for herself.


What the giddy fuck are you doing right now?  Dictating that only one element of the sentence had anything questionable about it, and marking my response as incorrect?

WTF cesare, seriously.


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> oooh hes in trouble now


Not really  But there's a lot of fuss about casual sexism atm, and he's taken Mal to task over it when we'd already done that


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Corax said:


> What the giddy fuck are you doing right now?  Dictating that only one element of the sentence had anything questionable about it, and marking my response as incorrect?
> 
> WTF cesare, seriously.


I'm not dictating anything. But if you want to follow people round picking them up on casual sexism, you might as well do a thorough job of it.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> The sexism was in the inherent assumption that *the wife* would be taken rather than deciding for herself.


 
I find that an atrociously patriarchal term too, like shes a mere chattel . Shes a human being, an individual with a personality, opinions, hopes and dreams. Yet he reduced her role in life to a mere sidekick known as _the wife_, like its her job or something .

Appaling . He should know better .


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I find that an atrociously patriarchal term too, like shes a mere chattel . Shes a human being, an individual with a personality, opinions, hopes and dreams. Yet he reduced her role in life to a mere sidekick known as _the wife_, like its her job or something .
> 
> Appaling . He should know better .


Exactly. Plus he also should have qualified wife [in this particular family combination]. Tsk etc


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> the strategy is to outnumber, out propagandise and out organise in your communities


 
TBF, like many strategies, it's great on paper, but isn't particularly flexible in execution, especially when some of your organising is perforce done in "public". Unfortunately, anti-fascism is nowhere near as "cellular" nowadays as it was, and the term covers everyone from direct action physical force anti-fascism to shouty sloganeering children who brick it if a real bonehead comes within 15 feet of them.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> Exactly. Plus he also should have qualified wife [in this particular family combination]. Tsk etc


 
probably hits her when nobodys looking too


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.


 
Or 3, attempting to "radicalise" their family/has a radicalised family.


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

sptme said:


> Was that at Manchester Uni in the late 90s?


no, there in Woolwich about half a mile from this murder
was in late 90's


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

where to said:


> Tactics, not strategies.


 
Well, it *can* be a strategy. It's just not a very good one if you have to shift _off piste_, as it were.


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

interesting last few pages
want to formulate a post but need to be more awake as not long up


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> probably hits her when nobodys looking too


----------



## Corax (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> I'm not dictating anything. But if you want to follow people round picking them up on casual sexism, you might as well do a thorough job of it.


Can you stop telling me how to post please?  Thanks.  

Objecting to taking kids to a demo on the basis of them being vulnerable is debatable, but reasonable.
Putting a married woman into that category classes them as similarly vulnerable, which is patronising and hugely patriarchal shite.

The word 'takes' could equally be used when referring to 'taking' a male friend to demo.  Given that women were the property of their husbands until not so long ago it's a poor choice of words, but it's more easily seen as an insensitive slip of the tongue than the point I picked up on.

Thanks for your input though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Meant to reply to this first bit last night - pretty sure you can't call my posting style academic!
> 
> I really don't get this speaking in tongues thing - i write pretty plainly and say what i mean as best and as simply as i can. That might mean something allusive sometimes, but it's never fucking show offy stuff like articul8 or people like that.


 
It's probably more to do with you sometimes expecting people to understand the allusions because you've credited them with broader knowledge than they have, hence the many replies to you that start "I don't get what you're saying".


----------



## Corax (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> I'm not dictating anything. But if you want to *follow people round* picking them up on casual sexism, you might as well do a thorough job of it.


Ps - "follow people round"?  I've done nothing of the sort.  Get a fucking grip.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is 1/ a nob, 2/ short of members! so to speak.


 
i assume we all have to post using LOL now then for those at the back. the joke is this 'anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is short of members! so to speak.' ie, they have lady willies not man willies. and i guess i shall have to cancel my act at U75 XMAS 2013!


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

cesare said:


> The sexism was in the inherent assumption that the wife would be taken rather than deciding for herself.


havent noticed anyone criticising the overuse of cunt as an insult on here sisters!!!! LOL!!!


----------



## Corax (May 25, 2013)

Why don't kids have willies?

I mean the boys, obvs.


----------



## ice-is-forming (May 25, 2013)

Corax said:


> but it's more easily seen as an insensitive slip of the tongue than the point I picked up on


 
Its really not.


----------



## IC3D (May 25, 2013)

The interview with Abu Nusaybah on Newsnight a friend of Michael Adebolajo one of the attackers is pretty stark in outlying the process of possible radicalisation, if taken as true and reading between the lines a bit  Prior to a trip to Kenya he was a bubbly person but while there he was rounded up with others (we don't know why he was there but I guess it was possible shenanigans) by the police, tortured, sexually abused and possibly raped in custody. On returning his personality changed and he complained of being harassed from the moment he returned by MI5 and asked to become an informer. Now if that was me I would crack up for one thing and assume the Kenyans were working for MI5 also.

This guy was also nicked as he walked out of the studio after the interview. My conclusion is that Abu Nusaybah is quite believable and this is a massive cock up by the security services.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

not LOL!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-...ved-to-die/392169994232505?hc_location=stream


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

Christ I detest this latest foray into hackneyed 80s identity politics.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> but HNH, UAF attempt to undermine and discredit BNP and the EDL all the time, partly to try to stop them having legitimacy, the same haven't done this with Chaudary/Radical Islam, why couldn't they create one of their united fronts with progressive Muslims against these knobs, in the case of the SWP, they have actually collaborated with these dubious mullahs, etc, Harman while in egypt even agreed with the Cairo Statement which said Nato ships which tried to blockade Palestine would be an acceptable target.


 
A couple of points:

1) "Radical Islam" is somewhat more diffuse than the "ideologies" behind the BNP and the EDL, so is more difficult to pillory and/or act against on an ongoing basis.
2) The fact that radical Islamism cloaks itself in the robes of Islam-in-general means that public comment on it is more fraught with legal and social complications than comment on BritNat ideas and/or activities.
3) Radical Islamism is also able to cloak itself behind communities which, while they do not support Islamism, still respect their religio-cultural obligations to fellow Muslims.
4) Much of radical Islamism is, if not covert, still "members only" in a way that far-right activism isn't.

You're expecting organisations set up to fight donkeys to take on wild horses too.


----------



## cesare (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> not LOL!
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-...ved-to-die/392169994232505?hc_location=stream


Heavy on-line policing presence, eh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is an important discussion that I doubt we will see from the political classes - what is it about _Britain_ that it produces such people?


 
It's a discussion the political classes can't and won't have (outwith a few "mavericks"), because it points up their own failure to think through the original policy intent behind the British version of multiculturalism, and how that set of policies have partially nourished both the religiosity *and* the sense of alienation that has fueled Islamist radicalism in Britain.


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> A couple of points:
> 
> 1) "Radical Islam" is somewhat more diffuse than the "ideologies" behind the BNP and the EDL, so is more difficult to pillory and/or act against on an ongoing basis.
> 2) The fact that radical Islamism cloaks itself in the robes of Islam-in-general means that public comment on it is more fraught with legal and social complications than comment on BritNat ideas and/or activities.
> ...


 
Good points, from what I can tell there is also a fairly wide spectrum of opinion even in groups like Hizb. All of this does make it difficult to combat these groups, but not impossible, right now we are in a situation where even if we know what is happening and it is happening openly nothing is done.


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

IC3D said:


> The interview with Abu Nusaybah on Newsnight a friend of Michael Adebolajo one of the attackers is pretty stark in outlying the process of possible radicalisation, if taken as true and reading between the lines a bit  Prior to a trip to Kenya he was a bubbly person but while there he was rounded up with others (we don't know why he was there but I guess it was possible shenanigans) by the police, tortured, sexually abused and possibly raped in custody. On returning his personality changed and he complained of being harassed from the moment he returned by MI5 and asked to become an informer. Now if that was me I would crack up for one thing and assume the Kenyans were working for MI5 also.
> 
> This guy was also nicked as he walked out of the studio after the interview. My conclusion is that Abu Nusaybah is quite believable and this is a massive cock up by the security services.


 
theres no shortage of news articles describing Kenya as Britains key ally in africa in its _war on terror_ .

just a flavour and we can read between plenty of lines there as to the extent and nature of the intelligence relationship .
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=1143998024,-UK-to-battle-on-in-terror-war

Britain maintains a serious military presence there and theres been numerous reports of troops regularly getting away with everything from gang rapes, assaults and murders . Which indicates the Kenyans often play an aquiescent role to the former colonial masters . So if a British citizen underwent some serious co ercion there its quite likely it could have been at the behest or connivance of the British intelligence services, using agencies in a rougher part of the world to conduct the nastier co ercion methods they dont like to be seen doing . But nontheless having a great deal of responsibility for what happened . If MI5 were right on his case the moment he got back that would indicate they were probably involved in some way in Kenya too .
If thats the case im not remotely surprised theyve gripped this guy who was spilling the beans . If the British security services played a role in brutalising a guy to a point that made him so vengeful im quite sure they wont want that to be part of the narrative .


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

1%er said:


> Is that really true
> 
> I was thinking how lucky the people of the UK were that their government banned guns and made access to bomb making materials (such as fertilizer) very difficult.


 
Ammonium nitrate is still the most widely-used chemical fertiliser for arable farming in use in the UK. It's not treated as an explosive, so it's merely required to be "secured" (i.e. kept in a building with a lockable door). Until the '90s, you could find sacks of it stacked in fields ahead of use on just about all non organically-farmed arable. My uncle (a house builder) keeps a couple of 26kilo sacks of it in his lock-up for stump clearance and slab-breaking.

E2A:
Farmers need a licence to buy ammonium nitrate, but what happens to it after it is bought and stored makes the licencing procedure a bit farcical. Typical neoliberal "self-regulation" wishful thinking.


----------



## Corax (May 25, 2013)

ice-is-forming said:


> Its really not.


I disagree. A friend of mine, in an attempt to convert me to the sport, *took* me to a cricket match a couple of weeks ago. He wasn't laying any claim of ownership upon me. Given the history of women as property the phrase becomes loaded when in the context that mal used it, but it's reasonable to see it as a common phrasing unwittingly used in an inappropriate context, IMO.

I can't see any similar mitigation for lumping women and children in to the same category of people to be kept away from demos - protected from the world by the big strong men.

Neither is good, but personally I see less excuse for the latter.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

1%er said:


> Fuck me, that would make one hell of a bang.


 
Add about 6 or 7 gallons of diesel to your half ton of ammonium nitrate, and it'd add an even bigger bastard of a "hell of a bang".


----------



## 1%er (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ammonium nitrate is still the most widely-used chemical fertiliser for arable farming in use in the UK. It's not treated as an explosive, so it's merely required to be "secured" (i.e. kept in a building with a lockable door). Until the '90s, you could find sacks of it stacked in fields ahead of use on just about all non organically-farmed arable. My uncle (a house builder) keeps a couple of 26kilo sacks of it in his lock-up for stump clearance and slab-breaking.


That's interesting. I read elsewhere that all orders for Ammonium nitrate (and a few other chemicals that i won't list here) placed with wholesalers are, as a matter of course, passed on to a 3rd party agency's for clearance. (I assumed 3rd party agency's meant the police in the first instance).

Farming in the UK is quite a big industry so I guess things don't always work as they are meant too.



ViolentPanda said:


> Add about 6 or 7 gallons of diesel to your half ton of ammonium nitrate, and it'd add an even bigger bastard of a "hell of a bang".


Not to mention ball-bearings, nails and other things


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Good but terrifying article. Seems like the establishment really has been wilfully blind to extremism in a lot of institutions.


 
Would have been better if Lee hadn't, as is his usual practice (even when posting on Urban), tried to make the story about himself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

1%er said:


> That's interesting. I read elsewhere that all orders for Ammonium nitrate (and a few other chemicals that i won't list here) placed with wholesalers are, as a matter of course, passed on to a 3rd party agency's for clearance. (I assumed 3rd party agency's meant the police in the first instance).
> 
> Farming in the UK is quite a big industry so I guess things don't always work as they are meant too.


 
Yeah, it does mean police, but what it effectively means is that some overworked constable or sergeant matches orders to names on their patch along the lines of "ah, old farmer Jones has his annual order for 144 sacks in" and passing the order. It doesn't govern what happens to the stuff once it's in Jones's barn, so Jones is possibly going to find himself a couple of sacks short come time to fertilise his fields.


----------



## 1%er (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yeah, it does mean police, but what it effectively means is that some overworked constable or sergeant matches orders to names on their patch along the lines of "ah, old farmer Jones has his annual order for 144 sacks in" and passing the order. It doesn't govern what happens to the stuff once it's in Jones's barn, so Jones is possibly going to find himself a couple of sacks short come time to fertilise his fields.


I assume that this kind of stuff is given some kind of chemical signature so it can be traced back to source?

Stable Horse etc. but helpful never the less


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yeah, it does mean police, but what it effectively means is that some overworked constable or sergeant matches orders to names on their patch along the lines of "ah, old farmer Jones has his annual order for 144 sacks in" and passing the order. It doesn't govern what happens to the stuff once it's in Jones's barn, so Jones is possibly going to find himself a couple of sacks short come time to fertilise his fields.


 
the british public can thank themselves very lucky that its immigrant muslim population are not traditionally engaged in the agricultural sector as a means of employment . Very lucky indeed .


----------



## Casually Red (May 25, 2013)

1%er said:


> I assume that this kind of stuff is given some kind of chemical signature so it can be traced back to source?
> 
> Stable Horse etc. but helpful never the less


 
unlikely, in agro commerce a few big companies dominate  the market . Most farmers would use the same brands .


----------



## barney_pig (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i assume we all have to post using LOL now then for those at the back. the joke is this 'anyone who takes wife and kids on demos is short of members! so to speak.' ie, they have lady willies not man willies. and i guess i shall have to cancel my act at U75 XMAS 2013!


Desperate


----------



## 1%er (May 25, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> unlikely, in agro commerce a few big companies dominate the market . Most farmers would use the same brands .


I know this is the case in the USA, many chemicals (in batches) are given a chemical signature during manufacture and imports are also treated this way, or refused an import license. The cost incurred is paid by the US government.


----------



## phildwyer (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Meant to reply to this first bit last night - pretty sure you can't call my posting style academic!


 
Gnomıc as fuck though.


----------



## phildwyer (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> The threat to who and what? _You_ must have some basis for deciding the edl are a bigger threat.


 
And you most defınıtely have a reason for decıdıng that relıgıous fundamentalısts are the bıggest threat.


----------



## phildwyer (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not sure that you're being asked to condemn radical islam (and its telling that politics has bow becoem a matter of simply openly condemning an idea or series of ideas) but to understand what it's doing and where it comes from and by extension how to stop if being produced.


 
A good start would be to stop the Brıtısh government slaughterıng thousands of Muslıms.

Untıl the Brıtısh people put a stop to that, they wıll contınue to suffer revenge attacks from radıcalızed Muslıms.


----------



## phildwyer (May 25, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> what is it about _Britain_ that it produces such people?


 
The fact that the Brıtısh government keeps on ınvadıng Muslım countrıes.


----------



## phildwyer (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not one person or group will ever do anything like this in the UK again.


 
You'll be seeıng thıs post agaın.


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

Did I miss a mention of one of the suspects, Michael Adebowale, being stabbed by a crack user called Lee James in a flat in Erith when he was 16?

_Guardian_: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-adebowale-witnessed-murder-knife

_News Shopper_ at the time: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/3994670.ERITH__Faridon_Alizada_murderer_gets_life/



> Afterwards James confessed to friends he had killed Mr Alizadah, saying he believed the boys were members of Al-Qaeda, plotting to blow up Bluewater shopping centre.


----------



## phildwyer (May 25, 2013)

coley said:


> What we are doing and what we have done, in the ME, looked at in hindsight was patently wrong/ foolish.


 
It wasn't foolısh.  It was (and ıs) and calculated plan to destroy Muslım natıons and steal theır natural resources.

A very successful plan on ıts own terms.

The people who desıgned and ımplemented ıt don't consıder terrorısm on the streets of London a serıous drawback.  That's the kınd of collateral damage they can lıve wıth very happıly.


----------



## phildwyer (May 25, 2013)

Butchers looks ınto hıs crystal ball, 2009:



butchersapron said:


> Islam is finished in iran thank fuck


 
Butchers looks ınto hıs crystal ball, 2013:



butchersapron said:


> Not one person or group will ever do anything like this in the UK again


 
Let's hope someone's crossed hıs palm wıth sılver thıs tıme.


----------



## manny-p (May 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Meant to reply to this first bit last night - pretty sure you can't call my posting style academic!
> 
> I really don't get this speaking in tongues thing - i write pretty plainly and say what i mean as best and as simply as i can. That might mean something allusive sometimes, but it's never fucking show offy stuff like articul8 or people like that.


 
Seriously mate. I do find how you write difficult at times. Sorry to have criticised you in an uncomradely way but I stand by what I said.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 25, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Desperate


 
you are!


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/edl-march-newcastle-thousands-protesters-4015897


just seen the media videos of the EDL march thru Newcastle, its massive, they had the roads, etc and I think they may be on a roll

waits for BA to say I am hysterical..


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

you are certainly weird


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

and thinking wishfully...


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

outrageous slur my man, take it back..


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

> *Poll reveals rising fears of clashes in wake of Woolwich killing*
> 
> YouGov poll shows rise in proportion of people who believe British Muslims pose a threat to democracy
> 
> ...


 
Alarrming poll

and shouldn't say it but alarming EDL protestor!


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

_Demonstrate_ your distance from that lot, then...


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

fuck off journo...


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

is it some kind of fellow traveller then? thought it was just weird


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> fuck off journo...


are you right wing?


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

what, they had the biggest march for years and it came across as 'legitimate' allowed to march thru the whole city, instead of being caged, even had a minutes silence at Greys Monument, just fuck off.

I am saying they are gaining traction again, which is worrying and you accuse me of RW sympathies, bizarro


----------



## JimW (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Alarrming poll
> 
> and shouldn't say it but alarming EDL protestor!


 
Is that 4% bump really that alarming given the tenor of a lot of the coverage? Only just outside the usual margin of error for one thing.


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> what, they had the biggest march for years and it came across as 'legitimate' allowed to march thru the whole city, instead of being caged, even had a minutes silence at Greys Monument, just fuck off.
> 
> I am saying they are gaining traction again, which is worrying and you accuse me of RW sympathies, bizarro


is that an answer to me or are you talking to yourself?


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

JimW
well that's why posted it here, for discussion, the Guardian certainly thinks so


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

ddraig said:


> is that an answer to me or are you talking to yourself?


 
to  you, and that's its now,


----------



## sihhi (May 25, 2013)

JimW said:


> Is that 4% bump really that alarming given the tenor of a lot of the coverage? Only just outside the usual margin of error for one thing.


 
What exactly do these questions mean, anyway?


> There has also been a small increase in the proportion of people who believe British Muslims pose a serious threat to democracy, up to 34% on Thursday and Friday from 30% in November 2012, according to the YouGov survey of 1,839 adults.


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> to you, and that's its now,


ok, you could have just answered no and i haven't accused you of anything merely asked a question


----------



## JimW (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> JimW
> well that's why posted it here, for discussion, the Guardian certainly thinks so


 
If this is about the poll bump, surely would need to see it sustained a bit longer and trending upwards before drawing any conclusions.
ETA: Weird, you seem to have tagged me but couldn't see it in original post.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

> What exactly do these questions mean, anyway?


 

yes, some people questioned won't even know what the word democracy means, but the G see's it as significant


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

JimW said:


> If this is about the poll bump, surely would need to see it sustained a bit longer and trending upwards before drawing any conclusions.
> ETA: Weird, you seem to have tagged me but couldn't see it in original post.


 
agreed, this is a very unusual week


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

JimW said:


> If this is about the poll bump, surely would need to see it sustained a bit longer and trending upwards before drawing any conclusions.
> ETA: Weird, you seem to have tagged me but couldn't see it in original post.


yesh it just did that to me, do quotes up date themselves now if posters edit them?


----------



## Anudder Oik (May 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/edl-march-newcastle-thousands-protesters-4015897
> 
> 
> just seen the media videos of the EDL march thru Newcastle, its massive, they had the roads, etc and I think they may be on a roll
> ...


 
It's a spike, due to the fact that there has "just" been an act of islamic terrorism this week and people's blood is up. It's a shame that it has been the EDl who have harnassed emotions and been able to mobilize people on the street in protest at the killing. They have scored points, albeit probably temporarily. They will quickly slip back into infighting etc...

However, I believe the terrorist attack, together with the one in Boston, and now one in Paris apparently, and the airplane at Stanstead will all have contributed to raising fear a notch and consequently racist perception of muslims in general. UKIP will probably be the big winner out of all this.


----------



## JimW (May 25, 2013)

ddraig said:


> yesh it just did that to me, do quotes up date themselves now if posters edit them?


 
False tagging scenario! Call icke.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

Anudder Oik said:


> It's a spike, due to the fact that there has "just" been an act of islamic terrorism this week and people's blood is up. It's a shame that it has been the EDl who have harnassed emotions and been able to mobilize people on the street in protest at the killing. They have scored points, albeit probably temporarily. They will quickly slip back into infighting etc...
> 
> However, I believe the terrorist attack, together with the one in Boston, and now one in Paris apparently, and the airplane at Stanstead will all have contributed to raising fear a notch and consequently racist perception of muslims in general. UKIP will probably be the big winner out of all this.


 
good post.


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

btw, the Guardian seems to not be covering the Newcastle EDL march, just mentioning in passing that there was a 'counter march'


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> not LOL!
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-...ved-to-die/392169994232505?hc_location=stream


What is this Shyte?


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2013)

> You sick fucking cunt. If you dont like this country then please fuck off. You bring shame to islam. The Muslim community is embarrassed and ashamed of you. I hope your brother father son have to go through what Lee Rigby family is going through now.


 


he or she seems a bit deranged and plenty of Muslims are very angry.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

coley said:


> What is this Shyte?


 
If I had to guess I'd say it was the work of those lovely people at 4chan, probably taking a break from posting LOL images of decapitated children.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2013)

> come ant get me u goat raper.


 
i hate the world


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> If I had to guess I'd say it was the work of those lovely people at 4chan, probably taking a break from posting LOL images of decapitated children.


I'm not opening a FB account to read whatever Shyte they are on about,


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2013)

its just a 'hilarious' troll with all the subtlety of blackpools golden mile


----------



## likesfish (May 25, 2013)

People are angry outside of urban most people in the uk like the armed forces they blame the goverment for the wars  so attacking a working class squaddie is going to get people pissed.
  Most muslims dont want to live in some sharia law shithole or they wouldnt't have moved or stayed in the uk. i imagine they share the revulsion of everybody else plus the feeling that they will be held responsible for this shit much like irish people were blamed during the iras murder spree with the added disadvantage that most muslims are brown so easily spotted not that hindus skihs or asian christians will be immune from the edl I expect the Brighton pavillon to be attacked shorty


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

coley said:


> I'm not opening a FB account to read whatever Shyte they are on about,


 
I wouldn't bother mate - not worth it. If you're desperate to know what it is I'll PM you but I'm not going to say what it is on here cos it's incredibly offensive and disrespectful towards the victim.


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

SpineyNorman said:


> I wouldn't bother mate - not worth it. If you're desperate to know what it is I'll PM you but I'm not going to say what it is on here cos it's incredibly offensive and disrespectful towards the victim.


Looks that way, rather not see it, some sick puppies on FB it seems.


----------



## 1%er (May 25, 2013)

coley said:


> I'm not opening a FB account to read whatever Shyte they are on about,


You don't need an account, I clicked on it and up it popped. I think that is the first time I have viewed a facebook page

All looks a bit cluttered to me.


----------



## coley (May 25, 2013)

1%er said:


> You don't need an account, I clicked on it and up it popped. I think that is the first time I have viewed a facebook page
> 
> All looks a bit to cluttered to me.


Ill give it a miss, originally clicked it and it was a mess of stupidity,a disorganised collection of msgs, FB? No thanks.


----------



## seventh bullet (May 25, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Most muslims dont want to live in some sharia law shithole or they wouldnt't have moved or stayed in the uk. i imagine they share the revulsion of everybody else plus the feeling that they will be held responsible for this shit much like irish people were blamed during the iras murder spree with the added disadvantage that most muslims are brown so easily spotted not that hindus skihs or asian christians will be immune from the edl I expect the Brighton pavillon to be attacked shorty


 
But in the past you've hoped the EDL targets Asians and their families for violence.  As well as the British armed forces nuking the 'shithole' countries they came from.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 25, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> But in the past you've hoped the EDL targets Asians and their families for violence. As well as the British armed forces nuking the 'shithole' countries they came from.


 
Yep - if I remember correctly an Afghan taxi driver who had been working and living in London was found to have been fighting for the Taliban.

likesfish's definitely not mental or racist conclusion - all Asian taxi drivers are now fair game and he hopes they're murdered on the job.

What a pleasant individual.


----------



## CyberRose (May 25, 2013)

Holy shit, ITV have discovered that Richard Taylor _knew_ one of the suspects...

http://www.itv.com/news/2013-05-25/...-mentored-woolwich-suspect-michael-adebowala/


----------



## ddraig (May 25, 2013)

and?


----------



## CyberRose (May 25, 2013)

ddraig said:


> and?


 
My thoughts exactly...


----------



## Ld222 (May 26, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> well the hungerstrikes proved that the issue of certain death and martyrdom isnt entirely cultural, even the Iranians were taken aback in 81 and sent reps to Bobby Sands funeral . *The notion of blood sacrifice goes right back to 1916 and was a major plank of their ideology*, and I wouldnt doubt among the various groups thered have been some people prepared to do it .


 

 What a load of generalised revisionist clap trap!! Where do you even start with such utter ignorance.


----------



## cesare (May 26, 2013)

laptop said:


> Did I miss a mention of one of the suspects, Michael Adebowale, being stabbed by a crack user called Lee James in a flat in Erith when he was 16?
> 
> _Guardian_: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-adebowale-witnessed-murder-knife
> 
> _News Shopper_ at the time: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/3994670.ERITH__Faridon_Alizada_murderer_gets_life/


http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...g_regeneration_of_Erith_s_Larner_Road_estate/


----------



## Casually Red (May 26, 2013)

Ld222 said:


> What a load of generalised revisionist clap trap!! Where do you even start with such utter ignorance.


 
go ahead and start, fill your boots


----------



## J Ed (May 26, 2013)

They're striking while the iron is hot in the long march towards Chinese-style civil liberties  http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/26/theresa-may-measures-combat-terrorism

Never let a good crisis go to waste!


----------



## agricola (May 26, 2013)

J Ed said:


> They're striking while the iron is hot in the long march towards Chinese-style civil liberties http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/26/theresa-may-measures-combat-terrorism
> 
> Never let a good crisis go to waste!


 


> "I'm absolutely clear that we need to ensure that the intelligence services and, indeed, in policing CT (counter-terrorism policing)  … in the last spending review we ensured that CT policing was not treated the same as overall policing and I see every reason to take that same view in the next spending review."


 
So thats just the people who responded to the incident, the people who shot the suspects responsible and guarded them in hospital afterwards, the people who managed the incident from the control room, the people who staffed and processed the crime scene, and the people who got called in to stop the EDL smashing up parts of Woolwich that will be cut then.


----------



## Zabo (May 26, 2013)

Good post Ed.

You radicals on here had best watch out when May goes ahead with her 'radicalisation' policies. It's not that there are already sufficient laws to deal with terrorism, acts of violence, incitement to hatred and so on. Oh no, we need more _al la_ Bliar.

"She said those at risk were at "different points on what *could be* a path to violent extremism", and a task force would look at whether new powers were needed to tackle radicalisation."

What does she mean by 'radicalisation'? Will this only be for specific religious-political groups or will it envelope all who are involved in radical politics? What are radical politics? Who will determine what can and can not be said which is not already covered by existing laws? Could the radicalisation net be cast among those who, for example, oppose GM crops? I'm sure that some global corporations would like to see them de-radicalised. What of those on the far left and far right? Would they too be seen as preaching radicalisation?

One could argue quite reasonably that the Tories have been engaged in radicalisation with all their punitive victimisation policies against the poor, the unemployed and the sick. Never a day has gone by when they haven't tried to set people against each other through their propaganda media machine - Mail, Express and Sun. Yes, yes I know they haven't advocated violence but some would argue quite cogently that violence has more than one interpretation.

No doubt this is a side show - albeit dangerous - to cover up their inability to implement existing laws and to push through the snoopers bill.

A little history of the meaning of radical politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalism_(historical)

May's Party Piece

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22671932


----------



## J Ed (May 26, 2013)

Zabo said:


> What does she mean by 'radicalisation'? Will this only be for specific religious-political groups or will it envelope all who are involved in radical politics? What are radical politics? Who will determine what can and can not be said which is not already covered by existing laws? Could the radicalisation net be cast among those who, for example, oppose GM crops? I'm sure that some global corporations would like to see them de-radicalised. What of those on the far left and far right? Would they too be seen as preaching radicalisation?


 
I have thought this for years, but any suggestion that anyone made about the 2003 legislation banning incitement racial and religious hatred eventually being used to criminalise other types of speech was shot down with charges of alarmism and racism. Well, people are still persisting in those accusations but those who have warned about that legislation have been vindicated since Irish Republicans, anti-war Muslims and leftists have been targeted successfully prosecuted under the legislation for anti-government sentiment. That isn't going to change, in fact this aggressive policing of speech is increasing.

Both the right and the left are going to cheer on this legislation, and if you look at twitter both are constantly tattling on each other to the police over speech issues like children in a playground, they are enthusiastic because they assume that it will never affect them.

Well, this is aimed at all of us. May says that the security services need to check the e-mail of people AT RISK of radicalisation, that is concievably absolutely anyone. Then once that is in place, what's the next step? Police warrants to check your e-mail if you're suspected of selling a bit of weed?

The thing that's so depressing about all of this is that with a bit of common sense institutions, especially universities, could responsibly police themselves without this survelliance state power grab. That's not happened though, and it won't in the near future but even if we saw some willingness to move towards it I think it's too late now.

This stuff is all just so far off the radar for everyone anyway, coverage of civil liberties is almost entirely absent from the media and the popular consciousness.


----------



## Zabo (May 26, 2013)

J Ed said:


> This stuff is all just so far off the radar for everyone anyway, coverage of civil liberties is almost entirely absent from the media and the popular consciousness.


 
I couldn't agree more. The only time it gets prominence is when the media are highlighting the lack of civil liberties in China, Russia and Belarus et al. When the _Pussy Riot_ members were jailed they gave it a great deal of attention but little if any to those held in Guantamo - with one or two exceptions.

And then there was John Catt. The old chap must have been radicalised.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-21783596

As for the _Liberty_ organisation. Who? What? Where? Yes, right Shami.
http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/about/structure/liberty-director.php


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2013)

Ld222 said:


> What a load of generalised revisionist clap trap!! Where do you even start with such utter ignorance.


I think it goes back to your schooldays


----------



## cesare (May 26, 2013)

I note the lack of media coverage about Woolwich today on the major newsfeeds. Stabbing 200yds from Wednesday's incident, plus the tredl march.


----------



## treelover (May 26, 2013)

whats a 'tredl' march?


BBC news reporting that 700 people held a community march to protest against the killing, but that it was hijacked by EDL, etc

apart from that it is getting increasingly hard to find out what events are happening


----------



## cesare (May 26, 2013)

treelover said:


> whats a 'tredl' march?
> 
> 
> BBC news reporting that 700 people held a community march to protest against the killing, but that it was hijacked by EDL, etc
> ...


Tredl is TheRacistEDL that doesn't show up on cursory google searches.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 26, 2013)

Coming home today I noticed around 5 or 6 police wagons around the square, but everything was pretty quiet, just lots of people enjoying a sunny Sunday afternoon, so figured something had happened or was expected to happen.

Sure enough, got home and my flatmate said he'd heard something going on round the corner while waiting for his bus, but he didn't go to have a look so didn't know what it was, just heard shouting and screaming.


----------



## RedDragon (May 26, 2013)

Had an 'unmarked' snatch squad at highbury corner this afternoon.


----------



## treelover (May 26, 2013)

Tony Collins appears to be deleting any posts on SU which argue that extremist Islamic Fundamentalists should be challenged at all levels


----------



## dominion (May 26, 2013)

He sure is. I managed to get one in, sort of by linking to my blog: 

http://howiescorner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/facing-up-to-islamic-and-other-extremism.html 

but when I re-entered the fray with this (below) I got blocked. kept a copy so you can read it, Fail to see what the problem is.

_"This morning the EDL page has over 114,000 ‘likes’, meaning that over 114,000 people are now part of the EDL network and receive EDL messages in their fb feed. I’d say that this is important in a political sense.”_
That is worrying and shows why we need to respond to the the attrocity by (a) standing up to the BNP/EDL and (b) the Hate preachers of Islamism at the same time.
Another left wing blog had problems with local salafists last weekend:
http://tendancecoatesy.wordpress.com/2013/05/17/jimas-gets-police-to-threaten-tendance-coatesy/
These people are dangerous and a threat to us all regardles of how “left-wing” people consider themselves. The Salafists in Tunisia have already been attacking Trade Unions and at one point burnt down 3 TU offices which was reported on Labourstart.
It needs to be remembered that these people are also a threat to Muslims, not just because they aim to create strife in the wider community (by provoking the boneheads of the far-right) but want to impose their will on other Muslims the vast majority of whom just want to get on with their lives.
Everyone needs to remember by the way that there is no one Muslim Community. My immediate neighbours are from Kosovo and are totally westernised whilst many of my work colleagues differ in country of origin, dress and culture.
Tackling the hate preachers will have to take a multi-faceted approach.


----------



## J Ed (May 26, 2013)

dominion said:


> He sure is. I managed to get one in, sort of by linking to my blog:
> 
> http://howiescorner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/facing-up-to-islamic-and-other-extremism.html
> 
> ...


 
Yep, people seem to forget that an open part of the extremists strategy is to provoke racist violent reprisals on ordinary Muslims, many (probably most) of whom they regard as being insufficiently Muslim.


----------



## laptop (May 26, 2013)

cesare said:


> http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/1...g_regeneration_of_Erith_s_Larner_Road_estate/


 
Fortunately only dummy "exhibition bombs"... some puzzlement over how they got there!


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2013)

J Ed said:


> Yep, people seem to forget that an open part of the extremists strategy is to provoke racist violent reprisals on ordinary Muslims, many (probably most) of whom they regard as being insufficiently Muslim.


 

Just to elaborate on what I wrote, because I don't think I explained it properly, this is the sort of thing I mean, It's an extreme example but I think it helps to illustrate my point about the contempt that these people hold the majority of Muslims in.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ord-numbers-embrace-muslim-faith-2175178.html



> Daoud, 23
> 
> *Daoud was a self-confirmed "racist" two years ago* who knew nothing about Islam and Daoud, 23
> 
> ...


----------



## frogwoman (May 28, 2013)




----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2013)

He's part of the Hizb ut-Tahrir entryist effort at Sheffield Hallam FYI.


----------



## FNG (May 28, 2013)

think it is quite telling that "Doaud" has replaced one form of contempt for british muslims with another.


----------



## brogdale (May 28, 2013)

I've been out of the country for a few days so, apologies if this has already been explored in the thread, but has it yet been established if the attack at Woolwich was a co-incidental/'random' attack on any member of the armed forces or was the soldier killed because of his membership of a regiment with a proven record of abuse and torture at Camp Bread Basket?


----------



## elbows (May 28, 2013)

brogdale said:


> I've been out of the country for a few days so, apologies if this has already been explored in the thread, but has it yet been established if the attack at Woolwich was a co-incidental/'random' attack on any member of the armed forces or was the soldier killed because of his membership of a regiment with a proven record of abuse and torture at Camp Bread Basket?


 
Dunno, I would suggest that such details have not been explored publicly by the authorities or the press, though I havent exactly been keeping up with every story in the media. Most of the media focus I've seen has been on further arrests, the main suspects have still not been questioned, and attention has been more in the direction of the background of the two. As for this thread, its developed a particular focus on extremism and how its not dealt with by certain entities such as those on university campuses, rather than exploring every detail thats come out in the press.


----------



## Balbi (May 28, 2013)

Boyadee speaks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/28/woolwich-murder-faith-humanity-boya-dee



> Co-existence: to live in peace with another or others, despite differences. Can we truly co-exist? This is a question that has plagued mankind for centuries and one I've found myself discussing with anyone willing to help find the answer.
> 
> Last week I was thrust into the public eye after observing the recent murder in Woolwich. My vivid commentary on Twitter [since deleted] seemed to strongly resonate with people. I've lived in Woolwich all my life and I've seen my fair share of violence across the capital, from guns being let off by defiant college students who have had enough of a lifetime of being bullied and victimised by their peers, to knife fights where stomachs have been sliced open and intestines spilled out on to the street. However, I'm no one special, people around the world see these things every day and that's why I wanted to write, because despite this, I still have faith in humanity.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (May 28, 2013)

is this the same guy who posted the twitter, clearly a twitter persona, but a great guy.


----------



## Balbi (May 28, 2013)

Yup, that's the one.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2013)

Now, who was that moaning about his use of english?


----------



## Balbi (May 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Now, who was that moaning about his use of english?


 
 Innit.


----------



## treelover (May 28, 2013)

who?


----------



## Balbi (May 28, 2013)

Comments section already questioning if he wrote it, or let the graun do it and have him sign it.

Fucks sake Liberals


----------



## frogwoman (May 28, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Comments section already questioning if he wrote it, or let the graun do it and have him sign it.
> 
> Fucks sake Liberals


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2013)

treelover said:


> who?


 
Loads, surprised that you missed them.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 28, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Comments section already questioning if he wrote it, or let the graun do it and have him sign it.
> 
> Fucks sake Liberals


 
Yeah, like some Oxbridge Guardianista could write like that.


----------



## SpineyNorman (May 28, 2013)

killer b said:


> a friend just linked to this. mental if true.
> 
> https://twitter.com/BOYADEE


 



treelover said:


> can you translate, seriously...


 


butchersapron said:


> Now, who was that moaning about his use of english?


 


treelover said:


> who?


 
Sorry mate, I couldn't resist


----------



## treelover (May 28, 2013)

outed!


----------



## laptop (May 28, 2013)

Balbi said:


> Comments section already questioning if he wrote it, or let the graun do it and have him sign it.
> 
> Fucks sake Liberals


 
As if it's inconceivable that he might be fluent in more than one dialect...


----------



## Dogsauce (May 29, 2013)

It's nice to see some humanity and decency in all this, in particular his sensitivity towards the family in removing the tweets and not adding to the ghoulish coverage. Good lad.


----------



## JimW (May 29, 2013)

Just read on Beeb that one of the suspects is now out of hospital and in police custody.


----------



## sleaterkinney (May 29, 2013)

What more information do the police need ffs?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22703063


----------



## Mr Moose (May 30, 2013)

Whilst it's clear who did it the nature of the offence is important. It might be argued this is hate crime.


----------



## laptop (May 30, 2013)

sleaterkinney said:


> What more information do the police need ffs?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22703063


 
"Would you like to expand on your confession, Sir?"


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 6, 2013)

Boya Dee made a short film for Channel 4 news. Came over as a really cool guy too.


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 6, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Now, who was that moaning about his use of english?


 
The comments in the Graun article are pretty much all that. Like someone can't talk street and still be intelligent.


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jun 6, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> Boya Dee made a short film for Channel 4 news. Came over as a really cool guy too.


A really good film. It is nice to see Woolwich being portrayed in a better light, and Boya Dee did that well.

Very disappointed Snow didn't ask him what the other two in his top three were...


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 6, 2013)

I was also disappointed that he didn't perform one of his tracks while the closing credits rolled.

I'd like to have seen Jon Snow nodding his head along in the background while Boya Dee did 'Gash by Da Hour'.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 6, 2013)

Important argument to make:

Why Mehdi Hasan is half right and half wrong on foreign policy as a cause of terrorism 



> Uncomfortable though it might be, it is entirely conceivable the Woolwich attack was motivated by both an unwise, unsustainable and unjust foreign policy, and the beliefs predominant within minority elements of British Sunni Islam, namely Salafi-Jihadis.


----------



## andysays (Jun 7, 2013)

> Uncomfortable though it might be, it is entirely conceivable the Woolwich attack was motivated by both an unwise, unsustainable and unjust foreign policy, and the beliefs predominant within minority elements of British Sunni Islam, namely Salafi-Jihadis.


 
These factors are relevant, but I suggest it's also got domestic causes:

Add a dash of neo-liberal economic policies and a pinch of racist polarisation to the pot, and then stick the lid on and wait until it boils over...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Important argument to make:
> 
> Why Mehdi Hasan is half right and half wrong on foreign policy as a cause of terrorism


 
That's a really useful contribution to the discussion on the fall-out from Woolwich, and good also to see a more nuanced interpretation of the left's response.

I'd be quite interested to read more of Stott's work on Salafism, particularly when that ideology is so fractured into strands that include on the one hand 'super-salafi' jihadists, and on the other those prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with the EDL at memorials to Lee Rigby.

Complex.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 7, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Important argument to make:
> 
> Why Mehdi Hasan is half right and half wrong on foreign policy as a cause of terrorism


That's an excellent piece, and prolly bang on the money.


----------



## Ld222 (Jun 8, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> I think it goes back to your schooldays


 

That's plausible.


----------



## treelover (Jun 8, 2013)

Interesting to see Paul get a piece in the Statesman, good to see wider arguments than the usual UAF/liberal ones.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 18, 2013)

Left analysis has kind of dropped off recently but here is something (not too sure about it tho'):

http://www.tmponline.org/2013/06/10/thin-blue-crimes-on-asab



> But ASAB points to the very necessary structural critique that must be levelled against the role of the British and other armed forces in the perpetration of oppression both at home and abroad: the demands that any serious claims to internationalism, to anti-fascism, and to anti-capitalism make upon us with regard to the armed forces; the solidarity that must be upheld with those they kill, dehumanize and abuse; and the necessity of identifying who has chosen to be against us.


----------



## laptop (Nov 25, 2014)

*Rigby murder 'was not preventable'

Lee Rigby killing 'could have been prevented' 
*
Guess the sources


----------

