# Java certification



## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

I've found an online/home learning course teaching Java that I'm thinking of doing. It doesn't require any prior knowledge of Java to sign up and at the end of it I'd sit the SCJP 6.0 cx-310-065 exam. (I don't know any Java but have done simple bits of coding in a few languages and have used Matlab regularly for several years.)

Would anyone give me a job on the basis of that qualification, or would I need to go on and sit further exams before anyone would even speak to me?


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## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

The problem with programming jobs is that people want experience not qualifications.  Although qualifications help.


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## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

Also, that cert has just been rebranded as Oracle, not sun. (Oracle Certified Professional Java SE Programmer)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Certified_Professional


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

What would be the best way to get experience? (Assuming I knew Java )


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## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

Ah, therein lies the old chicken and egg problem.

I started off by programming legacy pascal systems


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Also, that cert has just been rebranded as Oracle, not sun. (Oracle Certified Professional Java SE Programmer)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Certified_Professional


Ah, yes I saw that but didn't think about the exam name  The course bumf mentions the 310-065, so I'd need to make sure it was the right exam!


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Ah, therein lies the old chicken and egg problem.
> 
> I started off by programming legacy pascal systems


What are they?


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## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

The problem we have when recruiting is that people can know java really well yet be totally shit programmers.  We might give an interview for a junior job based on the cert though as candidates with decent experience are thin on the ground.


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## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

Mation said:


> What are they?


 
Basically I got a job with no qualifications or experience simply because _nobody_ has pascal experience or qualifications.  It's an ancient programming language.  We used it for big old pensions management systems.


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

Hmmm. Well if I'm going to properly learn a programming language then I will need to do it via a course, to stop me getting distracted by shiny things. And then I guess I'd have to try to get some experience, although I can't see that many junior jobs listed that don't require something else not covered by the course I'm looking at. (Which I'm looking at as it's the only vaguely affordable thing I've found for Java.)

Is there another language that would make me irresistible without much experience?


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## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

Nope.  Sorry.  Experience maketh the programmer I'm afraid.

The cert tells me you know java.  Experience tells me you know how to use it.

How much are they asking?


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

~£1500 over 24 months. The course can be done at your own pace though, about 240 hours worth of work, they reckon. They give you the cert if you pass if you complete the course before you've finished paying.

I'd be aiming to do it over 3-6 months.


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## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

Does that include the exam?  

The thing is, there's plenty of do it yourself certification java books out there and I'm wondering what they offer above that.


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

Yep, exam included. You get assigned a tutor to whom you'd have several agreed hours access a week. You get the software, three course books and access to their student forums. There are 20 assignments; 10 multiple choice things and 10 practicals. I assume they can't be great big things though, if the whole course is 240 hours. If you fail the exam you can take the course again for free (with tutor &c) but would have to pay for the exam re-sit.


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

Is that shite value?


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## magneze (Aug 5, 2011)

We have the SCJP 5.0 book and the Web Developer book too. Reading from the back they include all the material for the exam, tests, some software and practice exams. The SCJP 5.0 book has £34.99 on the back. It's a bit out of date, but I would wonder what extra you're getting for £1500 apart from the exam and tutor time. You're welcome to borrow these BTW.

As fractionMan has said, experience will count over and above just a straight exam pass in Java. Ideally you would want to get into an employer with a graduate training scheme - they will be set up for someone who is still fairly new to programming but is clearly able to learn as they have a degree. What they should then do is to build up your experience and not just throw you in at the deep end.

What are the other programming languages you have used?


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## Ae589 (Aug 5, 2011)

Depends on your ability to learn, some people prefer courses.  Personally, I'd buy a book (prob more than one).


You may well be able to get a job as a junior programmer. If you can learn java quickly, my recommendation would be to get involved in an open source project you are interested in.  Download the source, look at it, try writing some tests and fixing some bugs (and submit them once you get good enough).

It may be worth getting involved in some of the newer languages (like groovy) to give yourself an edge... but maybe one step at a time.


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

magneze said:


> We have the SCJP 5.0 book and the Web Developer book too. Reading from the back they include all the material for the exam, tests, some software and practice exams. The SCJP 5.0 book has £34.99 on the back. It's a bit out of date, but I would wonder what extra you're getting for £1500 apart from the exam and tutor time. You're welcome to borrow these BTW.
> 
> As fractionMan has said, experience will count over and above just a straight exam pass in Java. Ideally you would want to get into an employer with a graduate training scheme - they will be set up for someone who is still fairly new to programming but is clearly able to learn as they have a degree. What they should then do is to build up your experience and not just throw you in at the deep end.
> 
> What are the other programming languages you have used?


Mostly Matlab, which as I understand is something like C. I've built a few GUIs but mostly just used it for data visualisation via text input. I did a Prolog module as part of my undergrad and also had to do a couple of coursework assignments in Delphi. I used Basic once to write a stimulus generation programme that hooked up with some commercial software on another machine. Visual Basic and VBA to play around. There were a couple of niche languages that went with stimulus generation and delivery software and hardware (RPVDs, Presentation, StimGen). I've done a couple of simple websites with HTML, Javascript and CSS. Started looking at PHP but got distracted by shiny things about halfway through the Dummies book. Tiny bits of VRML (mostly via the alarmingly named Spazz3D, as it was) and X3D. 

So that's mostly scripting stuff (I think! I'm not very up on terminology.)

I do feel like I'd get more from a course than I would on my own, but given my money situation and that the value for money might not be great, given what you and fM say, I should have a look at the books, see what I might be able to manage on my own and decide from there. Thanks for the offer to borrow the ones you have - it'll be really helpful 

And indeed thanks fractionMan


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## Mation (Aug 5, 2011)

Ae589 said:


> You may well be able to get a job as a junior programmer. If you can learn java quickly, my recommendation would be to get involved in an open source project you are interested in.  Download the source, look at it, try writing some tests and fixing some bugs (and submit them once you get good enough).
> 
> It may be worth getting involved in some of the newer languages (like groovy) to give yourself an edge... but maybe one step at a time.


Good ideas! Not heard of Groovy (Groovy - wtf? ) but I'll have a look


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## magneze (Aug 5, 2011)

Mation said:


> Mostly Matlab, which as I understand is something like C. I've built a few GUIs but mostly just used it for data visualisation via text input. I did a Prolog module as part of my undergrad and also had to do a couple of coursework assignments in Delphi. I used Basic once to write a stimulus generation programme that hooked up with some commercial software on another machine. Visual Basic and VBA to play around. There were a couple of niche languages that went with stimulus generation and delivery software and hardware (RPVDs, Presentation, StimGen). I've done a couple of simple websites with HTML, Javascript and CSS. Started looking at PHP but got distracted by shiny things about halfway through the Dummies book. Tiny bits of VRML (mostly via the alarmingly named Spazz3D, as it was) and X3D.
> 
> So that's mostly scripting stuff (I think! I'm not very up on terminology.)
> 
> ...


It sounds like you have a good grounding in programming, lots of different languages and some Object Oriented stuff with Delphi. It is well worth bringing it all together and learning something in-depth if you want to get a job as a programmer. I'd agree that Java is a good way to go too, because it is everywhere. Sure, other languages are more fashionable but Java is still the No1 language in use at the moment.

You will also find that once you have learned one programming language in depth then it's often not a big stretch to learn others. Most follow rather similar patterns.

I would definitely follow Ae589's advice too. Learning a programming language is a lot easier if you have something to do with it, otherwise it all gets a bit theoretical and contrived (well, I found this anyway). Open source is a good way to get experience and visibility - if you can point to contributions to an open source project that you have made then that could be a bonus to many potential employers if you have no commercial experience.

Another route into programming could be via testing software - sometimes this involves some basic programming and could be a nice way into a software company with a view to eventually moving into programming full time.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 5, 2011)

did java as part of my degree   started looking for jobs   and  found nothing that didn't ask for 3 years experience.   part of the reason i ended uo becoming a teacher.

things might have changed  now but   i'm not sure about it as in the end i decided  i'm not that intrested in a corperate job so gave up trying perhaps  if  you did a whole loads of  projects  by yourself  and  came in  with a fancy portfolio of work to show them it would help.

keep meaning to go back into java.  i was going to start making android apps  for  fun  but   got side tracked...


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## laptop (Aug 5, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> Basically I got a job with no qualifications or experience simply because _nobody_ has pascal experience or qualifications.  It's an ancient programming language.



On the other hand, _all_ programming languages work well if you pretend they're Pascal, then make any adjustments for their strange syntactic requirements. 

Certainly this will be true of Java - also a _proper_ language with strong variable typing and so on.


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## fractionMan (Aug 8, 2011)

I'd recommend Ruby if you're looking at some new 'fashionable' language.  It's really powerful and makes an awful lot of sense design-wise. It's also in commercial use.


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## Fruitloop (Aug 8, 2011)

Just to add to the recommendations, I would go with python. It's new and funky and the transition from Ruby to python to Java would be pretty easy, plus python is used in a lot of smaller scale projects where you might find it easier to find some early experience.


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## grit (Aug 12, 2011)

Its not a bad idea in theory, thankfully the experience part can be solved pretty easily by doing a personal project that you could show. Saying you want a "java" job is too broad, you will need to focus on a specific part of software development.

Ideally I'd recommend you doing java web development, its where the most jobs are and  its probably the easiest route you could take. What you should be working towards is creating a web application that uses servlets and jdbc (database connections). If you could build a very simple application that has one page that inserts data into a database, another that reads,updates and deletes. Funnily enough those four fuctions, typically abbreviated to CRUD, are the basis for 99% of all web applications.

Depending on how motivated you are, you dont need to spend *any* money on learning. Download eclipse or netbeans to write the code in and use any of the huge amount of free learning resources available online.

Edited to add: I really recommend Oreilly Head first java http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596009205


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