# Brixton Pound launching Thursday 17th September!



## jryancol (Sep 13, 2009)

The Brixton Pound (B£), a local currency for independent traders in Brixton is launching in the Town Hall this Thursday 17th September from 7pm.  The B£ will support independent businesses by encouraging residents to shop there, knowing that there money is more likely to circulate locally than leak out of Brixton to shareholders in the city, global supply chains or national contracts.  Research shows that only about 15-20p of every pounds spent in a chain store stays in the local economy.

Affiliated Brixton businesses are offering special discounts to residents paying for goods and services with B£s.

You can find out more and join the B£ 1000 club by signing up at our website here: www.brixtonpound.org and receive information about the scheme and special offers from businesses.

We are also conducting a simple multiple choice survey to enable us to measure the impact of the B£.  You can complete the survey online here:http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=XiAWcBH1vyc_2faZxZdycaYA_3d_3dand you will be entered in to a raffle to win free dinner at participating businesses Negrils and Opus Cafe.

Spread the word!

Josh, Brixton Pound Group


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## the button (Sep 13, 2009)

> 2. No advertising of any kind. We are not interested in hearing about your company/website/club/product/new song/gig/glowing rave underpants. This is a non-profit, community discussion forum, not a free advertising resource and offenders will be booted off.





Unless it's been cleared by one of our hardworking, unpaid mods first, of course.


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## claphamboy (Sep 13, 2009)

You should have posted this in the Brixton forum on here, but I am sure one of the mods will be along to move it soon. 

I've read the scheme works well in Totnes and Lewes, so good luck.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 13, 2009)

The only unfortunate side - IMO - is that the sign looks kinda like a massive B.S.

http://www.floridaventureblog.com/uploaded_images/nobs.jpg


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## the button (Sep 13, 2009)

mrs quoad said:


> The only unfortunate side - IMO - is that the sign looks like a massive B.S.



It does a bit, yes.


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## editor (Sep 13, 2009)

*Thread moved


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 13, 2009)

so is anyone gonna put their money where their mouth is and get involved in this?

i've signed up to buy some notes and i'm looking forward to thursday. hopefully some of you lot will get involved too, cos this needs lots of people telling their mates and spreading the word


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## honto (Sep 13, 2009)

I live and work locally and like the idea of money circulated locally, so yes I've signed up for some ££ partly to encourage it, and partly for the novelty of it. 

Whether it works in practice obviously depends on take up/publicity etc, but while the worst case scenario is having to spend it in Negril/Dogstar etc then it doesn't seem like there is a massive downside risk!


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## Oswaldtwistle (Sep 14, 2009)

claphamboy said:


> .
> 
> I've read the scheme works well in Totnes and Lewes, so good luck.



Very different places, so be interesting to see how it works out in Brixton.


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## ovaltina (Sep 14, 2009)

It'd be nice to have something where traders could swap services using this instead of actual cash - for example a plumber does a job for 200 brixton pounds and then spends that money at a Brixton restaurant that is also part of teh scheme. Would take a lot of admin to get it working tho.


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## HobgoblinMan (Sep 14, 2009)

Do you think the traders outside KFC in Brixton will accept the Brixton £???


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## nick h. (Sep 14, 2009)

I'll be taking B£ for cock action in the KFC toilets.


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## Pie 1 (Sep 16, 2009)

Front page of the Guardian website this morning.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/16/will-brixton-pound-work


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## Sesquipedalian (Sep 16, 2009)

What Brixton needs is more £'s not it's own £.


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## Kanda (Sep 16, 2009)

Am sure the guy from Transition Towns is gonna go far with comments like this:



> We haven't reached the hair salons yet, though. There seems to be one salon for every two people in Brixton, so reaching that tipping point is crucial.



Prick.


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## Sesquipedalian (Sep 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Am sure the guy from Transition Towns is gonna go far with comments like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Prick.



Yep.

I do like the comment from the guy in Brixton Wholefoods,referring to it as a "Bit League Of Gentlemen",

(It's a local £ for local people.)


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## Kanda (Sep 16, 2009)

I spend 90% of my disposable income in Brixton as it is. I don't see how this is going to make a difference. Can't see it taking off tbh.

I wonder if the big Tesco or smaller Sainsburys are in on it...


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## gaijingirl (Sep 16, 2009)

I think it will be tough to get on the ground and I do think that they will struggle not to have it be a sort of two tiered thing - "nice middle class" shops/bars/restaurants (albeit not Brixton Wholefoods...) V market traders and hair salons/nail bars etc... but it's an intriguing idea and I'll certainly be happy to get change in Brixton £s and spend them elsewhere - why not?  Good luck to them.


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## Sesquipedalian (Sep 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> *I spend 90% of my disposable income in Brixton *as it is. I don't see how this is going to make a difference. Can't see it taking off tbh.
> 
> I wonder if the big Tesco or smaller Sainsburys are in on it...



Same here and i won't be getting involved in the scheme.
It's a gimmick.
The economic ideas behind it are fundamentally unsound.

The journalist seemed more concerned about whether "Jamacians" would get on board rather than Tesco/Sainsburys who would have no commercial interest in joining such a scheme other than PR.


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## Pie 1 (Sep 16, 2009)

Sesquipedalian said:


> It's a gimmick.



It does seem this way. 
As the article says, fine for nice little WI market towns in Devon.
"twee"  from the Wholefoods guy hit the nail IMO.


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 17, 2009)

I was thinking about this when driving in this morning and I've realised that it could benefit businesses quite substantially, although for simple economic, rather than for the wishy washy ones given.

It all comes down to market segmentation. Outsiders coming to Brixton are generally willing to pay more, for various reasons, but mostly that they're likely to be better off. Therefore businesses can extract more money from them. Usually introducing a differential price for locals and outsiders would be difficult, but the Brixton Pound makes it easier, and the mechanism is hinted at on their website - give a discount for using B£.

Say you give a 20% discount for using the B£. You can then raise your prices by 20%, extracting more money from outsiders. Locals won't be paying any more so you won't lose their business. You're now trading the same volume for more profit.

The risk with any scheme like this, and indeed differential pricing in general is that people who can afford to pay the higher price still want to pay the lower one. This is reasonably easy to prevent if the criteria is, say being a student which you can easily check; the B£ could go this way by only exchanging £ to B£ (or better yet B£ to £) for locals, but this would probably kill its adoption).  The other way is of course to introduce some sort of time or quality penalty to qualify for the discount; this is the theory behind discount coupons, and is also how the B£ will work. Changing money to and from B£ is an inconvenience, but less of one for locals, and one locals will be more willing to put up with since they're less well off.

Overall it's quite easy to see why the MD of Morleys would support this, as it should increase his profits a bit. Ultimately you'll know it's succeed when KFC start accepting them; there's not much you can do to stop them from doing so, and they're almost certainly clever enough to se the business advantages.


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## Bob (Sep 17, 2009)

BBC website report here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8245276.stm


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## editor (Sep 17, 2009)

This thread gets mentioned on Sky News!



> However, not all locals are sold on the idea.
> 
> "I spend 90% of my disposable income in Brixton as it is. I don't see how this is going to make a difference. Can't see it taking off," said one local resident on web forum Urban75.
> 
> Another added: "I do think that they will struggle not to have it be a sort of two tiered thing - "nice middle class" shops/bars/restaurants vs market traders and hair salons/nail bars etc."



http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK..._South_London_After_Similar_Schemes_Across_UK


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## quimcunx (Sep 17, 2009)

I feel violated.

*pulls cardi over bosoms*


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## Kanda (Sep 17, 2009)

Yay, I made Sky News


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## Dan U (Sep 17, 2009)

RUPERT MURDOCH SUCKS BALLS!

 @ Kanda being on Sky News

Will be interested to see how this goes, being serious for a minute, as i've read recently of a few more places looking at doing this, including Dorking which is very Surrey.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Yay, I made Sky News


 

Congratulations Kanda 

Have you seen the comments?



> *great idea, lets give an area not famed for it's ability or willingness to intergrate with the rest of Britain an extra excuse not to do so. *
> Lets now have the Muslim Radical Pound and then the BNP pound so they can only shop with like minded people and not even try to get along with the rest of the country.
> 
> Then we can return to fiefdoms and baronies.
> ...


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## quimcunx (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm guessing that what they mean is brown people live here and are just assuming the rest as they've never been here.


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## kabbes (Sep 17, 2009)

Dan U said:


> RUPERT MURDOCH SUCKS BALLS!
> 
> @ Kanda being on Sky News
> 
> Will be interested to see how this goes, being serious for a minute, as i've read recently of a few more places looking at doing this, *including Dorking* which is very Surrey.


Blimey.  That's my neck of the woods.  

The problem is that everything that the local shops do to try to encourage local trade is somewhat undone by the council's insistance on ever more ridiculous parking charges that chase all the trade away.  They need to sort that out before they start looking at complicated things like local currencies!


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## Dan U (Sep 17, 2009)

kabbes said:


> Blimey.  That's my neck of the woods.
> 
> The problem is that everything that the local shops do to try to encourage local trade is somewhat undone by the council's insistance on ever more ridiculous parking charges that chase all the trade away.  They need to sort that out before they start looking at complicated things like local currencies!



yeah mine as well, well i live in Reigate now

i should stop posting on the Brixton forum really.

The people of Reigate just won a battle with Morrissons to allow evening parking for free! people power!


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

I want some because I kind of collect money and I find the notes/coins interesting, but that's about as far as my interest goes.

Fuck off to the Reigate forum, Dan U.

And fuck off entirely, Sky & Murdoch.


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## kabbes (Sep 17, 2009)

I demand a Reigate forum.


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## Dan U (Sep 17, 2009)

Onket said:


> I want some because I kind of collect money and I find the notes/coins interesting, but that's about as far as my interest goes.
> 
> Fuck off to the Reigate forum, Dan U.
> 
> And fuck off entirely, Sky & Murdoch.



Fuck off to the Kennington forum Onket 

i've got loads of random notes and coins here, when i sort my change bowl you can have the ones that aren't legal tender.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Dan U said:


> Fuck off to the Kennington forum Onket
> 
> i've got loads of random notes and coins here, when i sort my change bowl you can have the ones that aren't legal tender.


 


I'll give him a few ringgits, dirham and lira to fuck off


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## wtfftw (Sep 17, 2009)

some posters quoted on Orange website


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

drag0n said:


> some posters quoted on Orange website


 


they're the same posters quoted as in other links


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## Sesquipedalian (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Yay, I made Sky News



I almost made it on to Sky News


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## wtfftw (Sep 17, 2009)

Didn't read the others tbh.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Sesquipedalian said:


> I almost made it on to Sky News


 

Almost?


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## Sesquipedalian (Sep 17, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Almost?



My comments where in between those posts that where quoted.

But that's close enough for me


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Sesquipedalian said:


> My comments where in between those posts that where quoted.
> 
> But that's close enough for me


 

ah, poor you


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## Jonti (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Yay, I made Sky News


You'll make even more news if you go for Sky over that copyright violation they did on your words 

Though perhaps not on Sky


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## gabi (Sep 17, 2009)

A comment from the skynews site



> I note the council is fully behind this - anything a council supports is normally hair-brained and this is another piece of evidence to reinforce that statement.
> 
> Greece had City states and they fell apart - now i wont buy in Brixton because I will be concerned I am seen as an outsider.
> 
> ...



Can't help but agree. There's a risk of brixton getting a bit of a siege mentality. I'm sure everyone who lives here has had to defend the place when you're asked where you live. So that mentality possibly already exists - not sure this will help.

Still. We'll see. The guardian journo lives in herne hill, i see him in the park all the time. I wonder if he'll be able to use his pounds there? He's probably reading this, so out yaself leo...


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## wurlycurly (Sep 17, 2009)

jryancol said:


> The Brixton Pound (B£), a local currency for independent traders in Brixton is launching in the Town Hall this Thursday 17th September from 7pm.  The B£ will support independent businesses by encouraging residents to shop there, knowing that there money is more likely to circulate locally than leak out of Brixton to shareholders in the city, global supply chains or national contracts.  Research shows that only about 15-20p of every pounds spent in a chain store stays in the local economy.
> 
> Affiliated Brixton businesses are offering special discounts to residents paying for goods and services with B£s.
> 
> ...



This is just thinly-disguised protectionism for christ's sake. A bit like Obama trying to bar the import of Chinese tyres this week; hideously narrow-minded and backward-looking. Businesses outwith the Brixton pound catchment area are also struggling and will naturally be disatvantaged. A Buy British campaign in micro-form. Pants.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

you miserable bastards! it's really disappointing to see people queueing up to knock the Brixton pound when it hasnt even been launched yet! It reminds me of people moaning about their lot without actually getting off their arses to do anything about it.

protectionism? Bollox. Siege mentality? bollox! This is about doing our best to protect the local economy. It's a fairly poor area round here as you probably would have noticed and the point of this is to try and ensure that some of the WEALTH we create right here in Brixton, stays right here in Brixton, instead of fattening the pockets of some tesco shareholder who lives in a tax haven in the Channel Islands.

Ok, so some people like Kanda and myself might already spend most of their money in Brixton, but if that's the case then the B£ is essentially no different from real cash. So there's no reason not to use it. The real benefit comes from persuading people who don't shop so much in Brixton to use the new currency and check out some of the wicked local food and shops. 

call it protectionism if you like, but we already live with a protectionism that is massively weighted in favour of the big supermarkets and chain stores. They do nothing for our community. They might provide jobs, but they provide less jobs than the businesses they replaced - and they take the money and wealth we create and give it to people who are already loaded. Hasn't anyone learnt anything from the recession?

Unless people are prepared to look after their local community, soon we wont have much left. Brixton will become yet another clone town high street and we might as well live in some fcuking bland town in surrey.

Using the Brixton pound is no hassle to you, costs nothing, and has a good local benefit. And above all it will be FUN!  There's no reason not to use it (apart from apathy and sheet bloody mindednesse) So get involved and tell your mates to get involved.   

ps - and yes, I will be persauding my local purveyor of "outside KFC type goods" to take the B£ too!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

gabi said:


> A comment from the skynews site
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

We'll have our own border soon, you wait and see


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Brixton will become yet another clone town high street and we might as well live in fcukign su


 

Isn't it near enough already like that?  

I've no problem with the B£ myself.


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> It reminds me of people moaning about their lot without actually getting off their arses to do anything about it.



This is the internet!! 



Brixton Hatter said:


> Using the Brixton pound is no hassle to you,



How do I get the notes then?


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## gabi (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> you miserable bastards! it's really disappointing to see people queueing up to knock the Brixton pound when it hasnt even been launched yet! It reminds me of people moaning about their lot without actually getting off their arses to do anything about it.
> 
> protectionism? Bollox. Siege mentality? bollox! This is about doing our best to protect the local economy. It's a fairly poor area round here as you probably would have noticed and the point of this is to try and ensure that some of the WEALTH we create right here in Brixton, stays right here in Brixton, instead of fattening the pockets of some tesco shareholder who lives in a tax haven in the Channel Islands.
> 
> ...



I think the whole concept misses the point of why brixton's so fucking cool - ie, its openness. But I'll be happy to be proven wrong.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Isn't it near enough already like that?


Well you're right, it's been going that way for 10 years at least, but we still have a unique market and lots of decent independent shops. But the proposed redevelopment of the granville arcade will be another step in that direction....


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## Kanda (Sep 17, 2009)

How is the Market unique?


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## gabi (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> How is the Market unique?



Snails. Big ones.

By the way, I can guarantee that the pizza place that always has a massive queue of claphamite folk in the market will be first on the list to accept these notes. There's an indicator.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> But the proposed redevelopment of the granville arcade will be another step in that direction....


 

I can picture lots of little twee coffee shops but I'm not sure GA has the poseurability factor being hidden away as it is


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

gabi said:


> Snails. Big ones.


 

I thought those giant snails were illegal?


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## tarannau (Sep 17, 2009)

The market's still the largest afro caribbean market in Brixton, I don't know anywhere that still boasts such a wide collection of yams, edos and dasheens, let alone one with such a strong latin american presence ... and it's got 2 Guyanese eateries in as well. I've never found casareep or wirries anywhere else. That's unique enough in my book

Sadly I'm not convinced that I'll be able to spend my Brixton pounds freely in the market. Anyone know the take up of the traders?


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> stays right here in Brixton, instead of fattening the pockets of some tesco shareholder who lives in a tax haven in the Channel Islands.



What's going to stop Tesco from accepting them?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

tarannau said:


> The market's still the largest afro caribbean market in Brixton,


 

how many other Afro-Caribbean markets are there in Brixton then?


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## tarannau (Sep 17, 2009)

Bugger. I've given Minnie a chance to lord it up.

I mean Europe.


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## gabi (Sep 17, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Sadly I'm not convinced that I'll be able to spend my Brixton pounds freely in the market. Anyone know the take up of the traders?



According to the guardian article about 0%


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Bugger. I've given Minnie a chance to lord it up.
> 
> I mean Europe.





Please don't do it again.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Bugger. I've given Minnie a chance to lord it up.
> 
> I mean Europe.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Onket said:


> Please don't do it again.


 

Shut it you


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

Onket said:


> How do I get the notes then?


 You'll get them in change from any local businesses involved in the scheme (you could even ask for them in your change) or you can buy them tonight at the Town Hall from 7pm at a rate of £1 = £B1 and I understand you can also buy them from Morleys and from Opus cafe.




			
				BBC website said:
			
		

> -Exchange £20 for 20 Brixton Pounds (B£s) at Morleys department store or Opus Cafe
> - Spend this in any of the 70 or so shops, clubs, pubs, cafes which have signed up
> - On another shopping trip, accept change in B£s from the shopkeeper
> - Spend this change in another of the shops. And so on
> ...


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## Kanda (Sep 17, 2009)

Is there a list of the 70 places signed up anywhere?

Be a pain to have B£ on you to be told they don't accept it.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

ExtraRefined said:


> What's going to stop Tesco from accepting them?


I cant imagine tesco would ever accept them in a million years. They're designed to stop Tesco taking money out of Brixton! Tesco can't put them in the bank so they're no use to them - unless they want to give them in change, which might be hard with a £B20 note. I guess the ultimate success would be for Tesco to use them to buy locally produced goods to sell in their stores, but that just isnt how they do business.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Is there a list of the 70 places signed up anywhere?


Let me Google that for you Kanda!

In fact, just look at this link: http://brixtonpound.wordpress.com/businesses/


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

My local takes the Brixton pound, yay! (The hobgoblin/Hootenanny)


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I cant imagine tesco would ever accept them in a million years. They're designed to stop Tesco taking money out of Brixton! Tesco can't put them in the bank so they're no use to them - unless they want to give them in change, which might be hard with a £B20 note. I guess the ultimate success would be for Tesco to use them to buy locally produced goods to sell in their stores, but that just isnt how they do business.



Tesco can exchange them for Sterling like anyone else surely, and then put that in the bank?


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## tarannau (Sep 17, 2009)

That's pretty lacking in the market department, Stuart the watch notwithstanding. And there's a limit to how many watch batteries I need.

I can spends BPs in pubs mainly, it seems


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## gabi (Sep 17, 2009)

My dealer aint on that list either..


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## twistedAM (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> My local takes the Brixton pound, yay! (The hobgoblin/Hootenanny)



All the bars seem to. Well at least in that area as Windmill, Mango and White Horse do too.


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> You'll get them in change from any local businesses involved in the scheme (you could even ask for them in your change) or you can buy them tonight at the Town Hall from 7pm at a rate of £1 = £B1 and I understand you can also buy them from Morleys and from Opus cafe.



What denominations can I get them in?


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## Kanda (Sep 17, 2009)

Onket said:


> What denominations can I get them in?



It tells you up there ^^


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> It tells you up there ^^



Which post?


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## Kanda (Sep 17, 2009)

Onket said:


> Which post?



63 you lazy fucker


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> 63 you lazy fucker


 


Brixton Hatter said:


> Let me Google that for you Kanda!
> 
> In fact, just look at this link: http://brixtonpound.wordpress.com/businesses/


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## T & P (Sep 17, 2009)

Not a single one for sale on ebay yet...


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> 63 you lazy fucker



Sorry, but Brixton Hatter said it was no hassle so I wasn't going to hassle myself.

This is going to cost me 36 quid I can't really afford.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

gabi said:


> According to the guardian article about 0%


 








> A Brixton market stallholder . . . 'It's Monopoly money,' says one. 'I won't be having anything to do with it'. Photograph: Graeme Robertson


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

More comments:



> LOL, Brixton putting a marxist black panther on its pound note!
> How very commercial!​


 



> this is a ****ing joke right? these people will forming their own
> parliment next






> wish them luck with their Stupid Scheme. Brixton is the Occupied South Banks Drug & Crime Capital & truly no longer part of England.
> 
> Puting the picture of a Black Miltant on the note shows Disrespect to our Country - are they going to have a picture of the Queen on the note ? what are they going to print on the reverse " In Bob ( marley ) We Trust " I can't see the note having any true value or use other than to be rolled up to snort coke & I am sure the Forgers will soon copy it !


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Hah ha! Yeah, I'm sure 'the forgers' are just queuing up to replicate a note you can only use in a handful of shops in Brixton!


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## Hocus Eye. (Sep 17, 2009)

I am waiting for the day when the BBC financial news quotes the Brixton Pound the Lewes Pound and the Totnes Pound against the Dollar and the Ecu.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Onket said:


> Hah ha! Yeah, I'm sure 'the forgers' are just queuing up to replicate a note you can only use in a handful of shops in Brixton!


 

They'll probably be flogging them outside KFC


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## Hocus Eye. (Sep 17, 2009)

In Totnes and Lewes the advent of the local Pounds were part of a scheme called Transition Towns, aimed at promoting local enterprise.  Does anyone know if Brixton will be part of the Transition Towns project?


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## laptop (Sep 17, 2009)

A Brixton, une devise locale pour remplacer la livre sterling

Nice that the front page of www.lemonde.fr doesn't feel the need to explain where Brixton is


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## ajdown (Sep 17, 2009)

Hocus Eye. said:


> In Totnes and Lewes the advent of the local Pounds were part of a scheme called Transition Towns, aimed at promoting local enterprise.  Does anyone know if Brixton will be part of the Transition Towns project?



It isn't something that particularly interests me personally - but apparently Brixton is already a Transition Town, according to this website: http://www.site.transitiontownbrixton.org/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 17, 2009)

Hocus Eye. said:


> In Totnes and Lewes the advent of the local Pounds were part of a scheme called Transition Towns, aimed at promoting local enterprise. Does anyone know if Brixton will be part of the Transition Towns project?


 

http://www.site.transitiontownbrixton.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_Towns


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## OpalFruit (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm prepared to keep an open mind on this and see how it goes.

Shouldn't the B£ be compared to a 'LETS' (exchange of services) scheme rather than other currencies? As I understand it it will circulate within Brixton and be exchanged for Brixton made or sold services, and buyin it is just ike saying 'I pledge to support cmall local businesses, and my investment will provide a small amount of basic assured income from which the business can thrive and grow'. Surely the whole point is that Tesco etc will not, and must not take it - that the investment stays within the local independent sector, and therefore helps defend it against multi-nationals?

I am a bit perplexed by the idea that 'it's great, we've go it, just like Lewes has' because the last I saw in the Guardian, the Lewes£ was floundering and failing and the interest had not been sustained at all. Which gives the lie to the fact that it's suitable for small twee cuntry towns.

If I was a shopowner, I think  would rather be paid in sterling than B£, because it would give me more flexibility, but faced with a shopper with a fistful of B£s I'd rather accept them, than see him/her disppear off to tesco to spend real £ from the organic shelves. What do shop owners have to lose from the scheme? (unless ALL their income was in B£ - but maybe it can be traded in at the Morleys exchang?)


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks Minnie

Now that it is clear that Brixton is becoming or has become a Transition Town, there is more to think about than just the currency.  The whole idea is to make a transition away from dependency on oil and to create local environments that have alternative energy sources and food that is not dependent on oil based fertilizers.  Better get digging folks, and get that wind generator up.  Totnes being situated in the rural South Hams of Devon has a bit of an advantage there though.


----------



## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

I've got another question.

If I don't go tonight, apart from hoping to get some in my change from a participating retail outlet, how else can I get some of this 'monopoly money'?


----------



## jæd (Sep 17, 2009)

So I think the important question is : how hard will these be to photocopy...?


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## gabi (Sep 17, 2009)

Onket said:


> I've got another question.
> 
> If I don't go tonight, apart from hoping to get some in my change from a participating retail outlet, how else can I get some of this 'monopoly money'?



As on the website



> Issuing points – get your B£s here:
> 
> Cheques for Cash, 5 Atlantic Road, SW9 8HX
> 
> ...


----------



## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Thanks gabi.

Question is then, do I bother tonight?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Sep 17, 2009)

Remember if you print your own out from your computer, not to use them in the rain as the ink will run.


----------



## twistedAM (Sep 17, 2009)

OpalFruit said:


> I'm prepared to keep an open mind on this and see how it goes.
> 
> Shouldn't the B£ be compared to a 'LETS' (exchange of services) scheme rather than other currencies? As I understand it it will circulate within Brixton and be exchanged for Brixton made or sold services, and buyin it is just ike saying 'I pledge to support cmall local businesses, and my investment will provide a small amount of basic assured income from which the business can thrive and grow'. Surely the whole point is that Tesco etc will not, and must not take it - that the investment stays within the local independent sector, and therefore helps defend it against multi-nationals?
> 
> ...



Good points esp about multinationals and chains. It's about supporting local businesses.
The B£s can be exchanged back for sterling at Lambeth Credit Union, so what really do shopowners have to lose? In fact I expect I'll have a bunch of B£s by the end of the weekend and I won't be spending them in the market it seems...their loss.


----------



## OpalFruit (Sep 17, 2009)

If it takes off even a little bit, maybe more market traders will get on board.

But against a great tide of negativity, who knows?


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## jæd (Sep 17, 2009)

So say one were to duplicate these at home, would it be illegal...?


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## gabi (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm gonna buy the Bowie one. But I won't be spending it.


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## nick h. (Sep 17, 2009)

ajdown said:


> *It isn't something that particularly interests me personally *- but apparently Brixton is already a Transition Town, according to this website: http://www.site.transitiontownbrixton.org/



Christ on a fucking bike.  Who the fuck gives a fucking fuck whether it interests you? The question was: is Brixton a Transition Town? You answered it. Nobody asked 'is Brixton a Transition Town, and if so, would this be of interest to ajdown?' . Not everything is about *you*. Time to poke you with this link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 17, 2009)

oh bloody hell - they quoted me saying that I'm not "sold on the idea" - when the rest of the post concerned goes on to say that I like the idea and will be getting some Brixton pounds myself....


----------



## jæd (Sep 17, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Christ on a fucking bike.  Who the fuck gives a fucking fuck whether it interests you? The question was: is Brixton a Transition Town? You answered it. Nobody asked 'is Brixton a Transition Town, and if so, would this be of interest to ajdown?' . Not everything is about *you*. Time to poke you with this link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder



TBH I thought it was all about *me*, not ajdown...


----------



## ajdown (Sep 17, 2009)

"Be kind to each other" indeed... 

I'm on holiday and still enjoying it so I won't bother to respond to that post with the contempt it really deserves.


----------



## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Christ on a fucking bike.  Who the fuck gives a fucking fuck whether it interests you? The question was: is Brixton a Transition Town? You answered it. Nobody asked 'is Brixton a Transition Town, and if so, would this be of interest to ajdown?' . Not everything is about *you*. Time to poke you with this link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder



Talk about flying off the handle.

This is a messageboard, it's all about *everyone's* opinions.


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## Mrs Magpie (Sep 17, 2009)

from some website-or-other mentioned earlier said:
			
		

> However, Lewes is a countryside market town with low crime rates and a high concentration of independent businesses, including a chocolate shop, a vegetable box supplier and a clockmaker.


What's that got to do with the price of fish?


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

just got back from the launch - it was packed. a good mix of brixtonites there and loads of media. 

i am now the proud owner of some brixton pounds. The £1 note has Olive Morris on it, the £5 has James Lovelock, the £10 has CLR James and the £20 is Vincent Van Gogh. (They have 20 security features on them, so almost impossible to forge.) The backs of the notes have various engravings of the market done by a local artist. They're all the same size though, which is unusual. 

Some cafes and local businesses are offering 10% off if you pay with brixton pounds, so there's as good a reason as any to use them. simples!


----------



## stethoscope (Sep 17, 2009)

Is there going to be a Bowie note?!


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

stephj said:


> Is there going to be a Bowie note?!



doesnt look like it. Unless they decide to bring out a £50 note! 

I've just been reading the comments on the Sky news website - fuck me there's some proper muppets on there! This one is my fave:



			
				some fuckwit on the sky news website said:
			
		

> what a stupid idea-i am suprised the government as allowed this to happen !!! britain nis britain and should be one currancy only-this is another examole of labours attempts to suck up to ethnic minorities in an attempt to gain votes at the general election !!!!!


hahaha


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> just got back from the launch - it was packed. a good mix of brixtonites there and loads of media.
> 
> i am now the proud owner of some brixton pounds. The £1 note has Olive Morris on it, the £5 has James Lovelock, the £10 has CLR James and the £20 is Vincent Van Gogh. (They have 20 security features on them, so almost impossible to forge.) The backs of the notes have various engravings of the market done by a local artist. They're all the same size though, which is unusual.
> 
> Some cafes and local businesses are offering 10% off if you pay with brixton pounds, so there's as good a reason as any to use them. simples!



I'm going to try to pick mine up tomorrow lunchtime. This is where I will fail and never get my hands on any, you see!


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 17, 2009)

apparently it cost six grand to print up all the notes. the money was put up by Opus Cafe, Morleys, Negril restaurant, The Fridge, nef and Lambeth Council.


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## Onket (Sep 17, 2009)

Que people moaning about the Council wasting money if it doesn't work.


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## gaijingirl (Sep 18, 2009)

Onket said:


> I'm going to try to pick mine up tomorrow lunchtime. This is where I will fail and never get my hands on any, you see!



Am I wrong in thinking you can just opt to get your change from a normal GBP transaction in Brixton £s?  I wasn't going to actively seek any out, but just do this next time I'm shopping in a store which deals in them.


----------



## Sesquipedalian (Sep 18, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> Am I wrong in thinking you can just opt to get your change from a normal GBP transaction in Brixton £s?  I wasn't going to actively seek any out, *but just do this next time I'm shopping in a store which deals in them.*



They will offer them as "change".
I'm not keen on the idea,generally,thinking that what Brixton needs is more £ not it's own £.


----------



## twistedAM (Sep 18, 2009)

Onket said:


> Talk about flying off the handle.
> 
> This is a messageboard, it's all about *everyone's* opinions.



It wasn't the first time he's flung a toy out at ajdown.
Could have a little soap on our hands.


----------



## shygirl (Sep 18, 2009)

Yep, you can ask for the B£ in change.


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## kabbes (Sep 18, 2009)

Before making up your minds that you are against the idea, I strongly recommend that you listen to the the Mark Thomas podcast in which he interviews the organiser of the B£.  It's the interview with Josh Ryan-Collins that you want.

The key point is the following:



> “If you spend £1 in a supermarket, 70 pence leaves the area in directors’ fees and such like. But if you spend the same pound in a local independent shop, then 70p stays in the shop.”



(Whilst I'm plugging the Mark Thomas interviews, incidentally, I can't recommend the one with Richard Wilkinson highly enough.)


----------



## ovaltina (Sep 18, 2009)

OpalFruit said:


> Shouldn't the B£ be compared to a 'LETS' (exchange of services) scheme rather than other currencies? As I understand it it will circulate within Brixton and be exchanged for Brixton made or sold services



If they could extend the scheme so that traders could exchange services for B£ I reckon it could be a goer. There's already a working example in Brighton - http://archive.theargus.co.uk/2007/7/3/237461.html - except the scheme takes a cut from each trade.

But it's been going for five years and is v good for local businesses, which are all about building contacts and a reputation.


----------



## Sesquipedalian (Sep 18, 2009)

kabbes said:


> Before making up your minds that you are against the idea, I strongly recommend that you listen to the the Mark Thomas podcast in which he interviews the organiser of the B£.  It's the interview with Josh Ryan-Collins that you want.
> 
> The key point is the following:
> 
> ...



I'm trying not to be cynical,generally.
I want to try an adopt a positive approach to things so i will indeed look at it when sober,i know what time it is 
Thanks for link i like Mark Thomas.


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

gaijingirl said:


> Am I wrong in thinking you can just opt to get your change from a normal GBP transaction in Brixton £s?  I wasn't going to actively seek any out, but just do this next time I'm shopping in a store which deals in them.





shygirl said:


> Yep, you can ask for the B£ in change.



Yes, but I collect money so I want it to be mint.


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## kabbes (Sep 18, 2009)

Good luck to you in your money collection (didn't Jesus have a special place for money collectors?), but it's worth pointing out that hoarding the B£ is directly counter to the point of setting it up.


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

Well, I do apologise for having a hobby.


----------



## Sesquipedalian (Sep 18, 2009)

kabbes said:


> Good luck to you in your money collection (didn't Jesus have a special place for money collectors?), but it's worth pointing out that *hoarding the B£ is directly counter to the point of setting it up.*



It's called "leakage."

(and i agree with you on this point.)


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

I do work in Brixton & live only up the road, so obviously will use the money, but I just want some mint notes at home as well FFS.


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## kabbes (Sep 18, 2009)

Enjoy your weak lemon drink.


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## Badgers (Sep 18, 2009)

How is it going?


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

kabbes said:


> Enjoy your weak lemon drink.



Wherever did you get the idea for that pun?!


----------



## Kanda (Sep 18, 2009)

Badgers said:


> How is it going?



Fine thanks. how are you?


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## kabbes (Sep 18, 2009)

"Pun"?


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

Joke, jibe, dig, etc.


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## kabbes (Sep 18, 2009)

None of those things have an equivalency with "pun".


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## gabi (Sep 18, 2009)

So there's no Bowie note... that's a bit dumb. Surely the most famous son. And the coolest. Oh well, whatever.


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

kabbes said:


> None of those things have an equivalency with "pun".



Sigh. Whatever you say.


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## kabbes (Sep 18, 2009)

Excellent.  I say Onket is tiresome.  Next!


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

Well, it's an idiotic derail, and you are wrong, but I'm happy to let you think you've won if it shuts you up so we can get back to the actual topic.


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## jæd (Sep 18, 2009)

Brixton Hatter said:


> i am now the proud owner of some brixton pounds. The £1 note has Olive Morris on it, the £5 has James Lovelock, the £10 has CLR James and the £20 is Vincent Van Gogh. (They have 20 security features on them, so almost impossible to forge.) The backs of the notes have various engravings of the market done by a local artist. They're all the same size though, which is unusual.



Go on then, scan them and post them up so we can have a go.


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## ymu (Sep 18, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I spend 90% of my disposable income in Brixton as it is. I don't see how this is going to make a difference. Can't see it taking off tbh.
> 
> I wonder if the big Tesco or smaller Sainsburys are in on it...


As stated, it's what happens to that 90% of your income after you've spent it that matters. If most of it gets re-spent in the local area, it's better for the local economy (and by extension the entire world economy) than if most of it heads off to a tax haven to be hoarded.

The idea seems to be to encourage people to shop locally through the use of a local currency. But it will only really help local businesses if people do go to them more often specifically to use their B£s, rather than to a multinational that doesn't accept them. 

I can see it as a really good, and reasonably cheap, launchpad for encouraging local shopping, but if you can easily convert them back to £ sterling, it might not have a long-term effect on behaviour. And Tescos will be able to accept them, which would entirely defeat the object.


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## Rikbikboo (Sep 18, 2009)

nick h. said:


> I'll be taking B£ for cock action in the KFC toilets.



EH


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

Right, I've got my pristine examples now, so fuck the lot of ya.

I actually don't really see the point of the 20s much, you don't get many 20s in your change do you.


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## tarannau (Sep 18, 2009)

no, but it's easy enough to spend £20 in a restaurant or bar.


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

Yes. But I thought the point is that the note stays in the area. If the restaurant or bar can pay their suppliers with a bunch of B£20s then that's ok, but I doubt they can.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 18, 2009)

Onket said:


> Yes. But I thought the point is that the note stays in the area. If the restaurant or bar can pay their suppliers with a bunch of B£20s then that's ok, but I doubt they can.


 

Considering the price of a round nowadays, it's not unusual for some people to hand over £50 behind the bar


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Considering the price of a round nowadays, it's not unusual for some people to hand over £50 behind the bar



A £50 note? I thought most places didn't take them.

You're clutching at straws Minnie.


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## el-ahrairah (Sep 18, 2009)

OK, lazy bloke posting, where do I get them from?  I quite like the idea of having a few Brixton dollars.  Also, what pubs accept them?


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## Onket (Sep 18, 2009)

They are pounds, you clown.

Get the from Morleys in the men's section. Pick up the leaflet wheile you are there which lists the pubs.


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## lang rabbie (Sep 18, 2009)

Onket said:


> Yes. But I thought the point is that the note stays in the area. If the restaurant or bar can pay their suppliers with a bunch of B£20s then that's ok, but I doubt they can.



But a surprisingly high proportion of a bar or restaurant's costs are the people it employs - so if folk choose to eat/drink in Brixton rather than "up-west" [or "up-east" in fashionable Shoreditch or whatever] then that is surely a good thing.


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## nick h. (Sep 19, 2009)

I got 50 of 'em at the launch, plus a collector's pack, which is supposed to be kept under the bed/left to the grandchildren/put on ebay. It comes with a letter from the mayor and has one note of each denomination. So the total face value of the notes is £36 but the pack costs £50. Each note has the same number and they're in protective sleeves within a stiff envelope which has the same number as the one on the notes. Tony of H of B got the first pack, with notes numbered 0000100. I got the ninth, with notes numbered 0000109. 

Every time I spend any, or offer to pay with them in a shop which doesn't take them, I end up trading some to people who want one out of curiosity. So whatever else they're good for they definitely increase the number of conversations with random strangers, which is my favourite aspect of living in Brixton.  There's going to be a lot of leakage but I suppose they can just print more if the number in circulation gets too low. 

I reckon the press coverage will encourage more Londoners and tourists to visit Brixton, just as Franco Manca does, so it will be good for the local economy. It's great to see some positive stories instead of all the usual crime stuff. Although it's just a matter of time before we get a hybrid crime/£B story - dealers taking them, or people losing them in a mugging.


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## Jean-Luc (Sep 19, 2009)

What people haven't thought of is what if rival, local shopping centres where people from Brixton occasionally shop such as Camberwell or Clapham or Streatham start issuing local pounds to try to keep their trade from going to their Brixton rivals? It'll be back to what it was like in the olden days when each town used to issue its own money. We'll have to walk around with lots of different currencies in our pockets. I foresee an opening for enterprising money-changers in this part of London. If we're going to have money surely it's better to have one that can used widely than one(s) that can only be used locally.


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## nick h. (Sep 19, 2009)

Yeah, we need money-changers.  So far (one day after the scheme's launch) there are only 70 shops that will change your Brixton pounds for sterling.


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## Miss-Shelf (Sep 19, 2009)

I want a hackney dollar now


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 19, 2009)

I want the Camberwell Kruggerand. Bollocks to backing your vanity currency with fiat money, back it with gold like Ayn Rand tells us.


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## ajdown (Sep 20, 2009)

I wonder if any of the skunk dealers on KFC corner are accepting the Brixton Pound yet?  Could be a market share grabber for the enterprising individual...


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 20, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I wonder if any of the skunk dealers on KFC corner are accepting the Brixton Pound yet?  Could be a market share grabber for the enterprising individual...



I don't think the market segmentation argument works with the unlicensed outdoor pharmaceuticals business. Locals are more likely to be dissolute addicts willing to pay any price, whereas drug tourists coming from Cla'ham to pick up their weekly gram of charlie will be more price sensetive an willing to shop around, so it's the opposite of other goods.


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## ajdown (Sep 20, 2009)

I just noticed the small print on the B£1 note saying "valid until 30 September 2011".

What's all that about?


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## Jonti (Sep 21, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I wonder if any of the skunk dealers on KFC corner are accepting the Brixton Pound yet?  Could be a market share grabber for the enterprising individual...


I would guess a much higher proportion of that money  (compared to spent in Tesco or the puB) stays in the local economy already.

I base that conjecture on the regular known markup on contraband cannabis as it is subdivided down the supply lines, and the assumption that more than one such divisions take place within brixton.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 21, 2009)

OpalFruit said:


> I am a bit perplexed by the idea that 'it's great, we've go it, just like Lewes has' because the last I saw in the Guardian, the Lewes£ was floundering and failing and the interest had not been sustained at all. Which gives the lie to the fact that it's suitable for small twee cuntry towns.
> 
> If I was a shopowner, I think  would rather be paid in sterling than B£, because it would give me more flexibility, but faced with a shopper with a fistful of B£s I'd rather accept them, than see him/her disppear off to tesco to spend real £ from the organic shelves. What do shop owners have to lose from the scheme? (unless ALL their income was in B£ - but maybe it can be traded in at the Morleys exchang?)




I heard the guy who runs the Wholefood shop speaking on Radio 4. He doesnt want to be part of the scheme for it seemed to me 2 reasons,

That Brixton is a centre of international trade as its a multicultural area. The Transition Town idea of localism is not relevant to somewhere like Brixton. Issues like Fair trade products etc are. I think there is an argument that the end result of Transition Town may be a more insular society. There is a debate to be had about this. 

  I did talk to someone from Brixton pound at the Green fair and told them i think its important that peoples different opinions on BP are listened to rather than just dismissed. That there different ways of being Green.

That he gives discounts already and didnt want to do more under the Brixton pound. I was also told its a bit more work for a shopkeeper to use it. Which for a busy shop might be just extra work. So it might just be better to encourage people to shop locally anyway not use a Brixton pound to do it.


I do however think the other argument for it is that it helps to promote a positive image of Brixton and supports smaller traders. Though I notice Morleys are part of it. Would Marks and Spencer be allowed to join? They are a longstanding part of Brixton (stuck with Brixton through all the bad times).They also sell Fair Trade products.I dont understand the criteria for those who may want to join the scheme.

That argument (that it promotes Brixton in a positive light) may be a bit different from the TTB one for a Brixton pound. Im not clear on this.

I have got 10 pounds worth of Olive Morris notes. Good to see the first squatter of 121 Railton Road on the BG.

In fact there are two Lefties,one Green and a mad artist. Seems to me to be good cross section of Brixton. Thats if ,ironically, we dont all get evicted and pushed out of Brixton as its "regenerated".


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## matt m (Sep 21, 2009)

I think M&S are perfectly entitled to join if they want to. But that's just not going to happen. The point is that the bean counters at M&S Central Office wouldn't want to receive the Brixton currency at the end of the day (or end of the week/month). Because they can't use it how they want to: they don't want to spend it in Brixton. I mean, the workers at M&S Brixton are not paid from the tills of M&S Brixton: they're paid by a cheque from a big M&S bank account. So M&S or Sainsburys would never join. 

Theoretically I suppose they could join and then be wankers about it and simply change the currency back into Sterling (as all users are entitled to do) on a regular basis - weekly or whatever. But I just can't see them ever wanting the hassle/bad PR of all that.


----------



## matt m (Sep 21, 2009)

i really like the CLR James notes, in a nicely (militant) red, in front of Brady's. I'd like a T-shirt of that!

I have mixed feelings about the Brixton quid. It's the least interesting or effective of the 'green' initiatives Brixton could be taking. In fact, it's probably the least 'green' of the 'green' initiatives Brixton could be taking. If Brixton did actually produce its own point-of-source food, for instance, that'd make much more sense. The Lewes pound had a lot more implications from that point of view. (I mean, a Brixton cafe deciding to source, say, its tomatoes from a Brixton greengrocer becuase of the Brixton pound is cool and all, but it's not like the Brixton greengrocer is growing its own tomatoes...)

But I'm glad it's there.


----------



## newbie (Sep 21, 2009)

nick h. said:


> There's going to be a lot of leakage but I suppose they can just print more if the number in circulation gets too low.
> 
> I reckon the press coverage will encourage more Londoners and tourists to visit Brixton, just as Franco Manca does, so it will be good for the local economy.



so, let me get this right, some people have printed a few words and pictures on some bits of paper which they sell to tourists for £1, £5, £10 or £20 each?  Damn, I wish I'd thought of that.


----------



## jakejb79 (Sep 22, 2009)

If i want to buy Brixton pounds is there a miniumum i can buy, and am i able to say i want (for example) 2 fives and 10 ones.


----------



## fjydj (Sep 22, 2009)

newbie said:


> so, let me get this right, some people have printed a few words and pictures on some bits of paper which they sell to tourists for £1, £5, £10 or £20 each?  Damn, I wish I'd thought of that.



 it gets even better, lambeth council tax payers have had to stump up £6000 to pay for printing the bloody vouchers.


----------



## ajdown (Sep 22, 2009)

jakejb79 said:


> If i want to buy Brixton pounds is there a miniumum i can buy, and am i able to say i want (for example) 2 fives and 10 ones.



I simply went into a shop and asked specifically for some within my change.  You should be able to as well, and even if you just want one Brixton funnymoney in your change, that should be fine.


----------



## newbie (Sep 22, 2009)

What I don't get is how this 'money' circulates.  sfaics consumers will exchange GB£ for BP which they'll then spend in a shop on goods for which the shopkeeper paid GB£.  The shopkeeper ends up with a pile of BP which they can't then spend on new goods, because little or nothing is actually produced in Brixton.  Apart from a few which they hand out as change when given GB£, how does the shopkeeper make good their loss?  

I imagine that in a couple of months time that £6000 worth of 'vouchers' will have mostly turned into souvenirs, but a few local shopkeepers will have accumulated significant quantities and an equivalent hole in their balance sheet.


----------



## nick h. (Sep 22, 2009)

newbie said:


> What I don't get is how this 'money' circulates.  sfaics consumers will exchange GB£ for BP which they'll then spend in a shop on goods for which the shopkeeper paid GB£.  The shopkeeper ends up with a pile of BP which they can't then spend on new goods, because little or nothing is actually produced in Brixton.  Apart from a few which they hand out as change when given GB£, how does the shopkeeper make good their loss?
> 
> I imagine that in a couple of months time that £6000 worth of 'vouchers' will have mostly turned into souvenirs, but a few local shopkeepers will have accumulated significant quantities and an equivalent hole in their balance sheet.



They can swap them back to sterling any time they like.


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## twistedAM (Sep 22, 2009)

newbie said:


> What I don't get is how this 'money' circulates.  sfaics consumers will exchange GB£ for BP which they'll then spend in a shop on goods for which the shopkeeper paid GB£.  The shopkeeper ends up with a pile of BP which they can't then spend on new goods, because little or nothing is actually produced in Brixton.  Apart from a few which they hand out as change when given GB£, how does the shopkeeper make good their loss?
> 
> I imagine that in a couple of months time that £6000 worth of 'vouchers' will have mostly turned into souvenirs, but a few local shopkeepers will have accumulated significant quantities and an equivalent hole in their balance sheet.



 How many times does this have to be said, that businesses can exchange Brixton £s back to sterling at Lambeth Credit Union?


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## ajdown (Sep 22, 2009)

I guess shopkeepers will encourage people to take B£ in their change, thus making it someone else's problem?

What actually happens at the end of this experiment, when B£ is worthless?  Can you change it back for real money, or are you stuck with a handful of expensive toilet paper?


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## newbie (Sep 22, 2009)

that's not circulation, that's simple substitution.  To have any utility they need to circulate, to be used over and again, directly for goods and services.


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 22, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I guess shopkeepers will encourage people to take B£ in their change, thus making it someone else's problem?
> 
> What actually happens at the end of this experiment, when B£ is worthless?  Can you change it back for real money, or are you stuck with a handful of expensive toilet paper?



It's supposedly fully backed by sterling, although given the fact it's run by lefties, the temptation to steal everyone's money may be too great - and it's being overseen by Lambeth council, who couldn't regulate a 5 year old's birthday party.


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## Wolveryeti (Sep 22, 2009)

I am pretty underwhelmed at the prospect of these expensive gift vouchers.

If people want to support local business they could, you know, just shop there, instead of going through this palaver.


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## ajdown (Sep 22, 2009)

Wolveryeti said:


> If people want to support local business they could, you know, just shop there, instead of going through this palaver.



Apart from some specialist stuff, I do probably 90% of my shopping in Brixton - and yes, I'd count the Sainsburys round the corner as part of the local economy, although I prefer to buy my veg from the shop on New Park Road and suchlike where it's a) practical, and b) cost-effective.


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## gabi (Sep 22, 2009)

It's a thoroughly pointless exercise, I really can't see the point of it. As others point out, choosing to shop at local small businesses instead of the big boys is not hard.

The only possible point of it is raising civic pride. But there's not exactly a lack of that either.


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## matt m (Sep 22, 2009)

I dunno, while it's true to say that, yes, if people really want to shop locally, they can do, it usually takes some kind of initiative to actually remind people to do so. There's equally a case for saying that people who really want to shop locally now have a way of forcing themselves to do so, even when it might not be convenient for them to do so.

people keep suggesting in this thread that there'll come a point when this money will be worthless, but there's no reason why there shouldn't continue to be a Brixton currency for ever. The Lewes pound has been going for several years now. People don't ask the same questions about the normal UK currency, which, when you consider national deficits and borrowing, ain't really propped up by much. 

Obviously if nobody uses it, it won't work. But that's the same for any money at all, and people don't normally have problems spending money; they have problems SAVING it. The expiry date of September 2011 does not indicate an 'end to the experiment', it's a regulatory tactic (to prevent counterfeiting I imagine): at that date you swap your brixton quids for some new ones. So there's no question of anybody ever having money they can't use.

Oh and they CAN exchange the money for goods and services. You can pay anyone a Brixton pound as long as they're prepared to accept it. You can pay your plumber in brixton pounds, anyone at all. You don't have to "sign up". There's no list about how is "allowed" to accept them. It's money. It works like money does. 

The only thing I don't understand about the project is what happens to the sterling that is exchnged for brixton pounds. I think it's placed in a "reserve". And presumably that "reserve" is not an interest-earning bank account. But I'd like to know the answer to that. I can't decide, in economic terms, whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing if Lambeth Council were earning interest off it. I'd imagine they couldn't be; they wouldn't be allowed to. Can anyone tell me the answer to that one? Well, I'll email and find out...

I've been thinking of busking in support of the Brixton pound. For fun more than anything.


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## newbie (Sep 22, 2009)

matt m said:


> Oh and they CAN exchange the money for goods and services. You can pay anyone a Brixton pound as long as they're prepared to accept it. You can pay your plumber in brixton pounds, anyone at all. You don't have to "sign up". There's no list about how is "allowed" to accept them. It's money. It works like money does.


consumer pays shopkeeper, shopkeeper pays plumber, plumber pays shopkeeper. That's barely circulating, because the loop is so limited.  The issue is that pretty nearly everything comes in to Brixton from outside, there's no primary production of new wealth here- nothing is grown or mined or manufactured. Almost all money does too. An egg producer in Lewes may have an income in LP from shopkeepers and consumers, which they can spend in the town. Very few people in Brixton, other than the shopkeepers, have any means of gaining any sort of regular income in BP, so the only way the BP can circulate is by regular exchange back & forth from GB£. Or am I missing something?


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## matt m (Sep 22, 2009)

No, that's very true, and I did actually make that exact same point earlier in this thread. I'm not making any special claims for the concept of the Brixton pound. The most significant ripple it could have would be the equivalent of a lot of small-business grants for the area. The other Transition Town ambitions and aims are undoubtedly much more interesting and useful. 

For instance, I'd much rather see community-based efforts towards better recycling - electronics, batteries, composting – in Brixton. There's a lot of crap on the streets of Brixton, a lot of wasted stuff. Alternatively, proper efforts to address the insulation of all the council-owned Victorian terraces would probably be the greenest, most energy-efficient thing Lambeth could do in one fell swoop, given the global carbon footprint of housing. (It'd even pay for itself within a couple of years - but Lambeth would never do anything that sensible, of course...)

Brixton's all too regularly an area only too happy to quite literally piss on its doorstep - maybe Lambeth Council should instal compost heaps instead of pop-up lavs, as pee is a well-known compost accelerator...


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 22, 2009)

matt m said:


> The expiry date of September 2011 does not indicate an 'end to the experiment', it's a regulatory tactic (to prevent counterfeiting I imagine): at that date you swap your brixton quids for some new ones. So there's no question of anybody ever having money they can't use.



It also gives the issuers the opportunity to make a MASSIVE profit from seigniorage, as in principle, after that date any the sterling backing any unredeemed B£ can be skimmed off



matt m said:


> The only thing I don't understand about the project is what happens to the sterling that is exchnged for brixton pounds. I think it's placed in a "reserve". And presumably that "reserve" is not an interest-earning bank account. But I'd like to know the answer to that. I can't decide, in economic terms, whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing if Lambeth Council were earning interest off it. I'd imagine they couldn't be; they wouldn't be allowed to. Can anyone tell me the answer to that one? Well, I'll email and find out...



There's no reason not to earn interest on it, although it would need to be zero risk - 50 year gilts would be the obvious choice, as they will never be defaulted on so only carry inflation risk - which straight up cash does anyway. This would be a reasonable way to fund the admin costs, although it's going to raise a lot less than the expiry could.


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## nick h. (Sep 22, 2009)

The scheme has already paid for itself in positive PR.  Retailers need more visitors to Brixton, and a positive story that counterbalances the gun-filled ghetto perception. This is from yesterday's Times:  

*Brixton has run on the pound as shoppers clamour for local currency*

"Queues for the Brixton Pound had formed at cash registers and shops were selling out as customers rushed to buy the fledgeling currency. When The Times arrived in South London to take part in this experiment in localism, the problem was not what to buy with the currency but how to get hold of it.

The Brixton Pound, an attempt to boost the local economy and tie local shoppers to local shops, had been set up with the Transition Network, which first introduced a local currency in Kinsale, Co Cork, in 2005. Similar local currencies have been introduced in English towns, but this was the first time it had been tried within a city."

Lambeth council has endorsed the project. The notes, which depict celebrated figures such as the community activist Olive Morris, the environmentalist James Lovelock and the historian C.L.R. James are available in B£1, B£5, B£10 and B£20 denominations.

Hours after it was announced, the market had spoken. Shoppers eager to buy the new currency queued in shops and cafés: there was a shortage. “Brixton Pounds are selling like wildfire,” said Josh Ryan-Collins, one of the organisers. “We ran out in Morleys, Cheques for Cash, and Opus Coffee and Sandwiches. People have got up early and have gone out on the street, exchanging sterling for Brixton Pounds and spending it.”

Brixton Pound Project volunteers on mobile phones co-ordinated the effort to replenish tills at issuing-points. They were well-organised, but hadn’t expected such a huge response.

Friday was the first day of trading for the Brixton Pound and the volunteers were handing out “We accept Brixton Pounds” stickers at the 80 participating businesses. “The reaction has been really positive. We’ve had a lot of people asking us, ‘what’s it all about?’ We want to start those kind of conversations,” Mr Ryan-Collins said.

Amid the excitement, a children’s news programme was filming an item on the scheme. “Kids can play an active role in preserving a community,” said Stephanie O’Brian, another volunteer.

In Brixton market, a clothing stallholder, Ms Ofoegbu, said: “I don’t think it’s going to miraculously change the economy of Brixton. But in terms of community spirit and morale, I think it’s really good. I will definitely purchase Brixton Pounds.”

The currency seemed to be attracting buyers from far and wide. Faye Bernard, who had travelled from Enfield, said: “I saw the advertisement on television last night and thought it was a great idea. I wanted to support the area, so that’s why I’m here shopping.”

Blacker Dread, whose record shop Blacker Dread Muzik is one of the participating businesses, wanted to buy some shoes with the currency. “I’ve always believed the best way to keep Brixton intact was to keep the money circulating within the community,” he said, trying on a pair at Webster’s Shoes.

Other retailers had had initial doubts. At A & C Continental Grocers, the owner, Jose Cardoso, said: “I didn’t sign up right away because I needed to be certain that the money was protected from those who would cheat the system and make counterfeit notes.”

Mr Ryan-Collins said that the long-term aim was a more resilient local economy, less dependent on global supply chains. How practical this might be in a city remains to be seen, but the project is encouraging local shops to source goods and services locally, and customers to patronise independent shops — to build “a mutual support system amongst independent businesses”.

“Ultimately I would like to see multiple complementary currencies,” he said. “So, not just a local currency like Brixton’s, but a London-wide currency — eventually spreading across the country; not replacing the pound but complementing it.”


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## matt m (Sep 22, 2009)

ExtraRefined said:


> There's no reason not to earn interest on it, although it would need to be zero risk - 50 year gilts would be the obvious choice, as they will never be defaulted on so only carry inflation risk - which straight up cash does anyway. This would be a reasonable way to fund the admin costs, although it's going to raise a lot less than the expiry could.



I was thinking more that there might actually be stipulations from the government about this kind of thing - if Lambeth earn a lot of interest from the money then the whole thing starts to look like a way of just generating revenue for the council; it becomes almost like a backdoor tax. 

And then every other borough in the UK wants to do it. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It might even be something the treasury would want to encourage. But it could turn into a bit of a nightmare in terms of managing the economy if you had all these hundreds of little pots of money everywhere. I'm by no means an economist, and my brain starts to hurt when I start thinking about ways councils and individuals could juggle and exploit them all. 

Surely these sorts of programmes must be pretty tightly regulated from on high?


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## matt m (Sep 22, 2009)

ExtraRefined said:


> It also gives the issuers the opportunity to make a MASSIVE profit from seigniorage, as in principle, after that date any the sterling backing any unredeemed B£ can be skimmed off



I'm also not sure that that's how it works. I mean, I think that that date is an expiry date for USE of that wave of the money in shops and for services. I don't think it's a deadline for exchanging it back to pounds. At the launch I'm sure I heard someone say that after that date, you can't use the money but you can swap it for the new ones.

They must, however, have SOME kind of eventual cut-off date for it, I suppose, but I imagine if they want to keep their noses clean, and avoid any bad PR, that date would have to be quite a long way in the future.

You could speculate using Brixton pounds. If you're expecting sterling's value to rise significantly over the next year, buy lots of Brixton quids right now... Wonder what's the limit you can buy?


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## ExtraRefined (Sep 22, 2009)

matt m said:


> I was thinking more that there might actually be stipulations from the government about this kind of thing - if Lambeth earn a lot of interest from the money then the whole thing starts to look like a way of just generating revenue for the council; it becomes almost like a backdoor tax.
> 
> Surely these sorts of programmes must be pretty tightly regulated from on high?



I suspect that legally it's effectively a gift voucher, in which case I don't think there's any obligation to back it with anything at all, or any restriction on what's done with the money, but IANAL. I suppose the issuer would be Trading while Insolvent if it wasn't fully backed, since they have no meaningful assets except the sterling reserve.

It's also not clear what exactly the extent of Lambeth's involvement is - they may have just provided a grant.



matt m said:


> I'm also not sure that that's how it works. I mean, I think that that date is an expiry date for USE of that wave of the money in shops and for services. I don't think it's a deadline for exchanging it back to pounds. At the launch I'm sure I heard someone say that after that date, you can't use the money but you can swap it for the new ones.
> 
> They must, however, have SOME kind of eventual cut-off date for it, I suppose, but I imagine if they want to keep their noses clean, and avoid any bad PR, that date would have to be quite a long way in the future.



Over time, some of the notes will go out of circulation due to collectors or destruction. If they didn't put an expiry date on them, they'd eventually have a large amount of cash which they probably didn't need (since it would almost certainly not be redeemed) but probably couldn't legally use. Putting an expiry date on avoids this problem.


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## Jean-Luc (Sep 23, 2009)

matt m said:


> Surely these sorts of programmes must be pretty tightly regulated from on high?


I would think you're right on this. The Bank of England is not going to allow anybody to issue additional currency as that might cause inflation (they want to keep their monopoly on being able to do this!). As far as I can see from the FAQ put out for the Lewes Pound, for every Brixton Pound issued a Bank of England Pound will have to be kept unused without getting interest in a safe deposit. I assume this will be a legal requirement. I think it's the same for Scottish Poond Nootes.
Anyway, here's what the Lewes Pound site says on this:


> *What happens to the sterling pounds that are taken when people buy Lewes Pounds? *All Sterling pounds are held in a safe deposit box with a local bank, so that we can access them at any time should people wish to trade their Lewes Pounds back into Sterling.
> 
> *Will the introduction of Lewes Pounds not have an inflationary effect?*
> 
> No, as there is not additional currency added to the total pool because for each Lewes Pound that is brought into circulation a Pound Sterling is taken out of circulation.


Other questions that have been raised here are also answered, eg about the expiry date. It appears that money will be made out of sales to tourists and collectors. 
Personally, I still don't see the point of it from the consumers point of view. I can of course see why some local shopkeepers in Brixton (but not in the rest of Lambeth) will like it. After all, it has been set up to benefit them.
There's also the irony of CLR James, a revolutionary socialist who wanted to eventually abolish money, being on one of the notes. 
Incidentally, what happened to the Brixton Lets scheme and its accounting money the "brick". Has it sunk to the bottom?


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## Gramsci (Sep 23, 2009)

nick h. said:


> Mr Ryan-Collins said that the long-term aim was a more resilient local economy, less dependent on global supply chains. How practical this might be in a city remains to be seen, but the project is encouraging local shops to source goods and services locally, and customers to patronise independent shops — to build “a mutual support system amongst independent businesses”.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## ajdown (Sep 23, 2009)

> The initial steps are to raise profile of Transition Town and get influence over local Governement etc.



Sounds decidedly undemocratic to me.


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## twistedAM (Dec 15, 2009)

Seems to be a lot more people using them of late. Had to change a few hundred back into sterling after having failed to eat my way through the wad at Negril.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 15, 2009)

twistedAM said:


> Seems to be a lot more people using them of late. Had to change a few hundred back into sterling after having failed to eat my way through the wad at Negril.


I think the shopkeepers are more used to it now too. You used to have ask whether people took them or not, but now people in shops accept them without a second glance.


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## Fuchs66 (Dec 15, 2009)

I heaqrd about this a while back and although I find it an interesting scheme one thought (especially as "but now people in shops accept them without a second glance." keeps coming into my head

How easy are they to forge compared with sterling?

You end up with 1 scrote forging tons of the stuff and the system is fucked and youre back to square 1 with the additional headache of sorting the genuine articles from the forgeries when people flock in to exchange back.


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## brix (Dec 15, 2009)

Fuchs66 said:


> I heaqrd about this a while back and although I find it an interesting scheme one thought (especially as "but now people in shops accept them without a second glance." keeps coming into my head
> 
> How easy are they to forge compared with sterling?
> 
> You end up with 1 scrote forging tons of the stuff and the system is fucked and youre back to square 1 with the additional headache of sorting the genuine articles from the forgeries when people flock in to exchange back.



I can't answer your question definitely but the Brixton Pound website says:



> The B£ is highly secure: notes are printed on watermarked paper by specialist secure printers, and incorporate a customised hologram, embossing, numbering, and other security features.


http://brixtonpound.org/why/


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## Fuchs66 (Dec 15, 2009)

brix said:


> I can't answer your question definitely but the Brixton Pound website says:
> 
> 
> http://brixtonpound.org/why/



I hope its true because in itself I like the sound of it I'd just hate to see it wrecked because of some bastard getting greedy and not enough safety features to make it difficult


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 22, 2009)

Fuchs66 said:


> I hope its true because in itself I like the sound of it I'd just hate to see it wrecked because of some bastard getting greedy and not enough safety features to make it difficult


apparently there's 21 security features on the notes - the same as stirling. So they're pretty secure. I've been using them for a few months now and I'm quite used to them - the design, the feel, the thickness of the notes. I reckon I'd spot a fake if someone tried to give one to me. And I fully expect the people working in shops who take them are well used to them too.


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## Mrs Magpie (Dec 23, 2009)

My only gripe is they haven't considered visual impairment. All the notes are exactly the same size and therefore Blind Lemon won't use them as one Brixton pound appears to him identical to the twenty Brixton Pound note.


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## ajdown (Dec 23, 2009)

Mrs Magpie said:


> My only gripe is they haven't considered visual impairment. All the notes are exactly the same size and therefore Blind Lemon won't use them as one Brixton pound appears to him identical to the twenty Brixton Pound note.



That's the case with a lot of currency though - US dollars are all more or less identical apart from the number on them.  Sterling notes are one of the exceptions with the colour and size difference.

It's probably only a matter of time, pushed by vending machine manufacturers as it has been in the US, before Sterling ends up similar - if, of course, we haven't succumbed to the euro by then.


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## Greebo (Dec 23, 2009)

Euros are different sizes and colours according to value for the same reason as Sterling notes.  So if anything, size differentiation is set to become the norm, not the exception.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2019)

Can you help?
Brixton Pound Cafe are looking for new premises – can you help?


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