# Another Russian spy hit?



## krtek a houby (Mar 6, 2018)

Critically ill man is former Russian spy

Too early to tell, I guess but all very suspicious.


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 6, 2018)

Sounds as dodgy as fuck, doesn't it?


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## 2hats (Mar 6, 2018)

In disUnited Kingdom Russia owns you.


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## rutabowa (Mar 6, 2018)

Do russian spys get paid a lot or something? Because otherwise fuck being a russian spy.


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## rutabowa (Mar 6, 2018)

Although I said that about being a narco too, and that is still a popular job.


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## rubbershoes (Mar 6, 2018)

Putin is a wise and just ruler. Everyone says so


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## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2018)

rutabowa said:


> Do russian spys get paid a lot or something? Because otherwise fuck being a russian spy.


eh, if your dice come up the other way you end up with a football team and the swishest flat in london


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## T & P (Mar 6, 2018)

Their hitmen certainly have a taste for the dramatic.


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## rutabowa (Mar 6, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> eh, if your dice come up the other way you end up with a football team and the swishest flat in london


When you put it that way i can see why people get tempted


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2018)

Another Russian who (allegedly) spied for Britain. The Kremlin’s way of saying they, (the Brits) can’t/won’t protect you.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 6, 2018)

These days, the James bond stuff and false passportery is fucked because social media and stuff - the ruskies are on top of this - there has been a blanket ban on anyone working in sensitive areas, not just the james bond sections,  from going to the WC this summer , such is the scope of the russian operation.

if this is Russia behind this (or more likely a proxy freelancer) then yes, this is saying we will bury you. don't you fucking worry, we are on top of this. this is headlines around the world. top quality marketing ploy.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2018)

Those Russians!


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## 2hats (Mar 6, 2018)

Boris flapping and clucking impotently in the HoC just now.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 6, 2018)

2hats said:


> Boris flapping and clucking impotently in the HoC just now.


 
I would pay good money to see the stuff they have on him.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 6, 2018)

2hats said:


> In disUnited Kingdom Russia owns you.



That's a really interesting read. Thanks.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 6, 2018)

It was virtually publicly acknowledged that the old Rossiya airlines outlet on Berkley square was an FSB London office. They never seemed to sell any tickets either.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 6, 2018)

It's the the way the UK doesn't actually give a shit which is alarming.

This guy got next to no coverage:

Whistleblower found dead near home 'never feared for his life'



And did anyone believe for a nano-second that this was suicide: Boris Berezovsky found dead at his Berkshire home  ?


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## elbows (Mar 6, 2018)

I've not tried to fully swot up on this case yet as there wont be enough detail in the public domain yet. But I think I saw mention that this bloke was the one that the 'fake rock with a pda inside' was used to collect info from. As in that fake rock that Russia discovered and then mocked in their media, leading to further mockery about the incident on our topical panel-based tv comedy programs of the day.


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## elbows (Mar 6, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And did anyone believe for a nano-second that this was suicide: Boris Berezovsky found dead at his Berkshire home  ?



I've gone a bit rusty on all the details but I think this was one I had no trouble at least keeping an open mind on, could have been a suicide, dont think that possibility was ruled out and assassination ruled in to my satisfaction, not even close. Especially as, whilst Russia rather likely deserves its reputation for this sort of thing, several other agendas have an interest in making Russian assassination claims for propaganda purposes, even for cases where its a lot less obvious what actually happened. Unless I am to believe that no exile who has lost a considerable chunk of their power, influence and wealth would ever kill themselves, I will keep an open mind on all but the most blatant of cases.

As for this new case, the little detail we have so far does make it seem like it could end up in the blatant pile, but I often expect further plot twists so will wait.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 6, 2018)

elbows said:


> I've gone a bit rusty on all the details but I think this was one I had no trouble at least keeping an open mind on, could have been a suicide, dont think that possibility was ruled out and assassination ruled in to my satisfaction, not even close. Especially as, whilst Russia rather likely deserves its reputation for this sort of thing, several other agendas have an interest in making Russian assassination claims for propaganda purposes, even for cases where its a lot less obvious what actually happened. Unless I am to believe that no exile who has lost a considerable chunk of their power, influence and wealth would ever kill themselves, I will keep an open mind on all but the most blatant of cases.
> 
> As for this new case, the little detail we have so far does make it seem like it could end up in the blatant pile, but I often expect further plot twists so will wait.



I'm sure there's a lot more to it than Russian guy pisses off Putin and gets whacked in the UK. But it does appear that quite a few Russians who have pissed off Putin do end up brown bread over here in murky circumstances...


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## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2018)

His wife, elder brother and son have all died in the last two years.

That's a bit unlucky isn't it.

_"He was doing strange hand movements, looking up to the sky"
_
MDMA OD?

Too soon?


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## Baronage-Phase (Mar 6, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> His wife, elder brother and son have all died in the last two years.
> 
> That's a bit unlucky isn't it.



I was just reading about that. His wife died of cancer shortly after they came to England and their son died in Russia. 
It does seem extremely unlucky. 

I read a report ..can't remember which online paper...but it reported that one of the paramedics who arrived at the scene and helped both of them is also still in hospital
..it does appear to be very suspicious.


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## Grump (Mar 6, 2018)

I imagine if you are a Russian spy who has betrayed your country and quite possibly caused the deaths of fellow spies there will be a lot of people who not only dislike you intensely but have the temperment and knowledge to see you off.  I suspect it is not an official hit, more likely an ex spy or mafia contact who freelanced.


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## Baronage-Phase (Mar 6, 2018)

Grump said:


> I imagine if you are a Russian spy who has betrayed your country and quite possibly caused the deaths of fellow spies there will be a lot of people who not only dislike you intensely but have the temperment and knowledge to see you off.  I suspect it is not an official hit, more likely an ex spy or mafia contact who freelanced.



Why now though? 
And why the daughter too?


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## kebabking (Mar 6, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I'm sure there's a lot more to it than Russian guy pisses off Putin and gets whacked in the UK. But it does appear that quite a few Russians who have pissed off Putin do end up brown bread over here in murky circumstances...



Someone from Buzzfeed was on Radio Five this morning - she said that her investigations had put the number of Russian dissidents (of various flavours) who had posed their clogged in the UK under circumstances that either failed the smell test, or who had 'FSB hit' written in letters you could see from the moon, was 14 since Putin came to power.

One had weedkiller in his stomach, but apparently that was 'natural causes'.


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## 2hats (Mar 6, 2018)

kebabking said:


> Someone from Buzzfeed ... number of Russian dissidents ... was 14


...


2hats said:


> In disUnited Kingdom Russia owns you.


This thread bought to you by the letter V?


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## moochedit (Mar 6, 2018)

Er..yes..can i just say what a great leader putin is. I won't hear a word against him.


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## planetgeli (Mar 6, 2018)

But who’s hit Boris?


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## moochedit (Mar 6, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> And why the daughter too?



To send the message to others that it is not just you but your family that will get killed.


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## Reiabuzz (Mar 6, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Why now though?
> And why the daughter too?



They ate together at zizzi which is presumably where they got poisoned. Maybe it was in the table water?


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## existentialist (Mar 6, 2018)

T & P said:


> Their hitmen certainly have a taste for the dramatic.


Pour encourager les aûtres.


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## tim (Mar 6, 2018)

Why don't they use drones like we do when we murder expats who irritate us?


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## tim (Mar 6, 2018)

Sprocket. said:


> Another Russian who (allegedly) spied for Britain. The Kremlin’s way of saying they, (the Brits) can’t/won’t protect you.



He isn't an alleged spy. He's the real thing. He spent several years in a Russian gaol before being swapped for some Russian spies held by the USA


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2018)

tim said:


> He isn't an alleged spy. He's the real thing. He spent several years in a Russian gaol before being swapped for some Russian spies held by the USA



Always put allegedly, polonium doesn’t suffer from guilt!


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## AnnaKarpik (Mar 6, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Critically ill man is former Russian spy
> 
> Too early to tell, I guess but all very suspicious.





Grump said:


> I imagine if you are a Russian spy who has betrayed your country and quite possibly caused the deaths of fellow spies there will be a lot of people who not only dislike you intensely but have the temperment and knowledge to see you off.  I suspect it is not an official hit, more likely an ex spy or mafia contact who freelanced.



^This. If the Russians (any official department) wanted him dead, he was in their hands in prison not very long ago.


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## tim (Mar 6, 2018)

Sprocket. said:


> Always put allegedly, polonium doesn’t suffer from guilt!



It'll Gavin Williams and his tarantula that will be sent out to eliminate subversive riff-raff like you, not the Comrades






 .


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2018)

tim said:


> It'll Gavin Williams and his tarantula that will be sent out to eliminate subversive riff-raff like you, not the Comrades.



Subversive riff-raff, I haven’t been called that since my last school report!


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## Sprocket. (Mar 6, 2018)

Apparently a lot of his close family have died in suspicious circumstances too in the last few years. I heard on PM earlier.


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## Grump (Mar 6, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Why now though?
> And why the daughter too?



If they were non state actors they would attack when they had an opportunity, which might take longer to arrange if you were not FSB. Interesting comment on radio today about how children are generally off limits when spy agencies attack each other's agents. This might not apply to people acting on their own initiative.


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## agricola (Mar 6, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> ^This. If the Russians (any official department) wanted him dead, he was in their hands in prison not very long ago.



You don't do something like this just to kill him though, you do it to prevent people now and in the future from doing what he did.  Killing prisoners just makes people that much more determined not to go to prison. 

More importantly though there is the media coverage of this, which fits in well with the image that Putin wants to send out - that Russia is a strong nation capable of striking its enemies wherever they may be found, even in Zizzis.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 6, 2018)

Even zizzis ?

Putin has no morals


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## DotCommunist (Mar 6, 2018)

'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw exotic radioactive isotopes down from the East to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf.'


Reading about that Young bloke I kept wondering why nobody had established a bolthole, somewhere secure. You've got millions on millions and you know its dodgy. But I can't think like these people, some international playground suddenly becoming a very small space to hide in. Why weren't you happy with a few whiffy mill, you'll literally never spend the stuff


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## existentialist (Mar 6, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> ^This. If the Russians (any official department) wanted him dead, he was in their hands in prison not very long ago.


Unless they wanted to send a very public message to the UK/other defectors/their own electorate that this is how they treat traitors. In which case they let him go, let him build a new life, off his relatives one by one, and then very publicly do him in. Let's face it, if someone had done the pair of them with a silenced 9mm, it would have been shocking and newsworthy, but nowhere near as in your face as publicly poisoning them and allowing them to die slowly...almost the same as happened with Litvinenko.

I really do think a very pointed message is being said with this: it's a slicker version of that DPRK assassination of the bloke in the airport with nerve gas.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 6, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> 'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw exotic radioactive isotopes down from the East to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.'
> 'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf.'
> 
> 
> Reading about that Young bloke I kept wondering why nobody had established a bolthole, somewhere secure. You've got millions on millions and you know its dodgy. But I can't think like these people, some international playground suddenly becoming a very small space to hide in. Why weren't you happy with a few whiffy mill, you'll literally never spend the stuff



they are not able to disconnect from the system that they are involved in- you and me and most of this board could probabaly bank 10M  and disappear off the face of the earth, dossing in Thailand for a decade on a Costa rican possport or suchlike- they cannot do it, their worth is tied up with the people they lurk with.


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## DaveCinzano (Mar 6, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> But who’s hit Boris?



DON'T FUCK WITH DARIUS


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## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> you and me and most of this board could probabaly bank 10M  and disappear off the face of the earth, dossing in Thailand for a decade on a Costa rican possport or suchlike



That's likely not as easy as you think!


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Even zizzis ?
> 
> Putin has no morals



Bloke in Zizzis on the Strand cut his own cock off a few years ago. This whole thing could be a Zizzi issue rather than anything to do with the kind and wise, not to mention, very handsome, Mr Putin.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 6, 2018)




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## teqniq (Mar 6, 2018)

Suspected fentanyl according to this report.

Salisbury suspected fentanyl incident: Pictures of police cordon as investigation continues into why former Russian colonel and British spy is critically ill


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 6, 2018)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> That's likely not as easy as you think!



yes of course, but thats an extreme example


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## keybored (Mar 6, 2018)

Grump said:


> Interesting comment on radio today about how children are generally off limits when spy agencies attack each other's agents.


Didn't hear it but did they mean children literally? The daughter being in her 30s after all.


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## moochedit (Mar 6, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Suspected fentanyl according to this report.
> 
> Salisbury suspected fentanyl incident: Pictures of police cordon as investigation continues into why former Russian colonel and British spy is critically ill



Fentanyl? That's not very exotic. I was expecting vx or polonium or something like that.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 6, 2018)

keybored said:


> Didn't hear it but did they mean children literally? The daughter being in her 30s after all.



A daughter in her 30s is still a child, literally.

Edit: Anyway, back in the day, the Cold War participants didn't even particularly go hard against foreign national agents of other powers. It didn't rise to the level of a  gentleman's agreement as such, but captured agents are much more valuable as bargaining chips. Traitors, on the other hand, well...


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## teqniq (Mar 6, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Fentanyl? That's not very exotic. I was expecting vx or polonium or something like that.



Apparently it may have been in the agent used a the Moscow theatre siege, so it's not improbable.


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## 2hats (Mar 6, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Suspected fentanyl according to this report.


Not a lot in that report about fentanyl other than the headline. Witness reports and the response of authorities might suggest something else...

(The V above wasn’t for Vlad, or vengeance. Feel free to choose a G instead of a V.)


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 6, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Apparently it may have been in the agent used a the Moscow theatre siege, so it's not improbable.



and that turned out so well. 

a big (relatively) slab of Fen IIRC isnt easily fixable either. unpleasant way to go


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## moochedit (Mar 6, 2018)

According to this they sent samples to a milatary research lab to analyse and they haven't identified it yet. If it was Fentanyl surely they would have identified it quickly?
Also if you want to send a message surely you would use something only a state could get hold of? Would have thought any criminal gang could get hold of Fentanyl?

Counter-terrorism police take over Sergei Skripal 'poison' case
Counter-terrorism police take over Sergei Skripal 'poison' case


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## existentialist (Mar 6, 2018)

moochedit said:


> According to this they sent samples to a milatary research lab to analyse and they haven't identified it yet. If it was Fentanyl surely they would have identified it quickly?
> Also if you want to send a message surely you would use something only a state could get hold of? Would have thought any criminal gang could get hold of Fentanyl?
> 
> Counter-terrorism police take over Sergei Skripal 'poison' case
> Counter-terrorism police take over Sergei Skripal 'poison' case


"It's that easy. Right, who's next?"


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## Grump (Mar 7, 2018)

keybored said:


> Didn't hear it but did they mean children literally? The daughter being in her 30s after all.


Good point. I think the implication was that it was family that were off limits, not just U18's.


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## heinous seamus (Mar 7, 2018)

To retaliate, apparently no members of the royal family will travel to the world cup this summer. That will teach them.


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## Supine (Mar 7, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Even zizzis ?
> 
> Putin has no morals



Should have gone to Nando’s


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## LDC (Mar 7, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Apparently it may have been in the agent used a the Moscow theatre siege, so it's not improbable.



AFAIK the deaths from the gas at Beslan were mainly not caused by the gas itself, but by the fact that the unconscious people were lay on their backs once outside the building, and the deaths were as a result of them getting occluded airways on top of having the reduced breathing rate and depth that opioids cause.

I'd have thought fentanyl would be a shit choice of an assassination drug, as it's easy to recognize the symptoms of (and people are trained to) and the antidote to opioids is carried by every ambulance in the UK and is quickly administered and very effective.


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## tim (Mar 7, 2018)

Grump said:


> Good point. I think the implication was that it was family that were off limits, not just U18's.



The don't hurt the kids line sounds like a romatisation of a murky world. My assumption is that it is possible, given his background, that be didn't keep his hands clean after his release and that consequently, beyond the Russian state itself, there are groups and individuals who might be interested in getting rid of this chap.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 7, 2018)

Proper hard core crims don't really care about kids either way , despite what Guy Richie tells us


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## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 7, 2018)

Torygraph speculating it's VX
Was deadly VX nerve agent used on Russian spy in Salisbury attack?


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## jusali (Mar 7, 2018)

Slow news day anyone?


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## tim (Mar 7, 2018)

jusali said:


> Slow news day anyone?


And a slow death week..


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## elbows (Mar 7, 2018)

I'm pretty sure this sort of event generates endless quacking whenever it occurs, not just slow news weeks.


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## krtek a houby (Mar 7, 2018)

It is an event, though, isn't it? Another possible slow and painful assassination on British soil.


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## 8ball (Mar 7, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Torygraph speculating it's VX
> Was deadly VX nerve agent used on Russian spy in Salisbury attack?



No.


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## 2hats (Mar 7, 2018)

Rudd: “We do know more about the substance and the police will be making a further statement this afternoon in order to share some of that.”


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## elbows (Mar 7, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> It is an event, though, isn't it? Another possible slow and painful assassination on British soil.



it's worthy of plenty of attention. Doesnt mean I cant go on about the quacking though, in the same way I often go on about the propaganda value of things, but me using the word propaganda is not supposed to be a judgement about the underlying truth of the matter, some of the best propaganda is truth.


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## likesfish (Mar 7, 2018)

agents are disposable on both sides.
intelligence  Officers tend to be live fairly sedate safe lives they run the agents who get paid more but may not live to collect the cash.


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## krtek a houby (Mar 7, 2018)

elbows said:


> it's worthy of plenty of attention. Doesnt mean I cant go on about the quacking though, in the same way I often go on about the propaganda value of things, but me using the word propaganda is not supposed to be a judgement about the underlying truth of the matter, some of the best propaganda is truth.



I can see both the propaganda from the "_nasty Russians,I told you so_" side & the "_this is what happens when you cross us_" side.

I probably could see the quacking too, if I knew what it meant!


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## elbows (Mar 7, 2018)

In this case I'm using it to encompass everything from 'patriotic' newspapers speculating about the chemical involved to Boris's oh so tough words. And associated special blends of spycraft and shrill tones.


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## Magnus McGinty (Mar 7, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> ^This. If the Russians (any official department) wanted him dead, he was in their hands in prison not very long ago.



They used him as a bargaining chip and then bumped him anyway.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 7, 2018)

When England fail to win the World cup this summer, VX doping will be blamed for their utter lack of interest in their games


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## elbows (Mar 7, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> When England fail to win the World cup this summer, VX doping will be blamed for their utter lack of interest in their games



Who knew that VAR stands for VX assisted refereeing.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 7, 2018)

machon was on the telly this morning given her surprisingly lucid yet unoriginal take on this- I have to agree with her on one aspect- that we ( the masses) have no idea what this bloke was up to in his private life - I would be surprised if he had cut all contact with the  *Russian businessmen* side of things


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 7, 2018)

elbows said:


> Who knew that VAR stands for VX assisted refereeing.


 
no more magic sponge, Russia introduces magic aerosol


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## nuffsaid (Mar 7, 2018)

I say we take off and nuke 'em from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.


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## moochedit (Mar 7, 2018)

Sergei Skripal believed to have been poisoned with nerve agent

Sergei Skripal believed to have been poisoned with nerve agent


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## 2hats (Mar 7, 2018)

Met Police: a nerve agent is the cause of the symptoms and the original two victims are believed to have been targeted specifically. One police officer is also being treated for exposure.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 7, 2018)

If it is VX, the it can lurk for hours or days, maybe the cop who is also affected got exposure as well. Awful shit


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## existentialist (Mar 7, 2018)

And the fact it's something like VX almost conclusively points to something other than a "private" assassination, presumably.


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## 2hats (Mar 7, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> If it is VX, the it can lurk for hours or days, maybe the cop who is also affected got exposure as well. Awful shit


One source has claimed it is “very rare”.
One first responder reported seriously affected but other eye witnesses apparently ok(?).
Small, isolated areas of town centre cordoned off.

So one might guess not VX. Perhaps something less persistent such as a G-series; no (few?) other emergency responders/eye witnesses/bystanders reported to have symptoms(?). Or an incredibly small dose of something novel, borderline sub-lethal which could still leave victims with serious long term neurological problems _if_ they survive. Perhaps a binary delivery if there is no assailant suffering? One of the more obscure V or G series or a pico-dose of Novichok (very high lethality might suggest that’s unlikely)? Maybe then, one of the many G/V hybrids or variants usually ignored by the military (but not the SVR) as they are awkward to weaponise but could be ‘hand’ delivered. Obviously begs lots of questions around transport, delivery and disposal of the materials used, whereabouts of related materials.


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## teqniq (Mar 7, 2018)

You sound like you know what you're talking about, but anyway it's all very nasty.  Given the premise of the buzzfeed article you linked to, I expect a lot of huffing and puffing and not much more. But there again we do do live in dangerous times.


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## T & P (Mar 7, 2018)

The North Korean half-brother of Kim Jong-un who was offed at an airport a few months ago was said to have been killed by VX and died within 20 minutes of being exposed. Obviously I'm no expert but judging by that and by what I remember of Saddam Hussein's use of it on the Kurd villagers, I'd have thought VX will kill you in minutes, or a few hours at most. At the end of the day it is said to be the most lethal and concentrated agent known to mankind.

But perhaps this chap and his daughter got exposed to a weakened/ defective batch.


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## 2hats (Mar 7, 2018)

And here come the Telegraph with [almost] a link to Trump… 
Poisoned Russian spy Sergei Skripal was close to consultant who was linked to the Trump dossier


> A security consultant who has worked for the company that compiled the controversial dossier on Donald Trump was close to the Russian double agent poisoned last weekend, it has been claimed.
> 
> The consultant, who The Telegraph is declining to identify, lived close to Col Skripal and is understood to have known him for some time.


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## 2hats (Mar 8, 2018)

T & P said:


> I'd have thought VX will kill you in minutes, or a few hours at most.


Depends on the dose, to a lesser degree method of exposure, environmental conditions. Hand mixing a binary in the field probably results in sub-optimal and varying yields. Timings will also depend on how soon suitable antidotes are applied.


> At the end of the day it is said to be the most lethal and concentrated agent known to mankind.


Supposedly surpassed by fourth generation agents (Foliant A-series).


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## MrSpikey (Mar 8, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> When England fail to win the World cup this summer, VX doping will be blamed for their utter lack of interest in their games



I'm sure people will see through this - after all, why would anyone attempt such doping, once they've realised how bad the penalties are going to be?


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## Riklet (Mar 8, 2018)

Maybe theyre sending a message rather than offing him.

Either way he's lucky to still be alive. Nerve agent in centre of Salisbury? Fucking helll...


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## tim (Mar 8, 2018)

Riklet said:


> Maybe theyre sending a message rather than offing him.
> 
> Either way he's lucky to still be alive. Nerve agent in centre of Salisbury? Fucking helll...


Salisbury, albeit its outskirt rather than its centre, is the place where more people have been exposed to nerve agents than anywhere else in the  world. Between the 1920s and 1989 at Porton Down there were 3,400 such experiments carried out on service men who had allegedly volunteered, some were fatal. Perhaps, this attack was an omage to the masters of the art
The past Porton Down can't hide


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 8, 2018)

Porton down you say. Now there’s a hook for the conspiralooms to get hold of


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 8, 2018)




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## mauvais (Mar 8, 2018)

What happens if the copper doesn't make it? It turns a bit Yvonne Fletcher, only I don't suppose we'll bomb Russia.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 8, 2018)

Was a documentary on Porton Down two or three years ago, they were naturally quite coy, but strongly alluded to having created something that is pretty mush instantly fatal with the tiniest of tiny doses, with no antidote possible. He did look pretty spooked even talking about it


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 8, 2018)

mauvais said:


> What happens if the copper doesn't make it? It turns a bit Yvonne Fletcher, only I don't suppose we'll bomb Russia.



We shall have an enquiry and conclude they died from a dodgy batch of MDMA at Glastonbury 2000 and the case will be dropped.


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## likesfish (Mar 8, 2018)

the thing is chemical agents are horribly lethal IF you can get a lethal dose into someone which is much harder than it sounds.
  LSD is an incapative agent unfortunately nobody knows how to get dose into someone who doesnt want to take it .	you can hardly spike an entire battlegroup


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## tim (Mar 8, 2018)

mauvais said:


> What happens if the copper doesn't make it? It turns a bit Yvonne Fletcher, only I don't suppose we'll bomb Russia.



We could Blair them


----------



## 2hats (Mar 8, 2018)

mauvais said:


> What happens if the copper doesn't make it? It turns a bit Yvonne Fletcher, only I don't suppose we'll bomb Russia.


Reportedly the officer is "talking and engaging".


----------



## felixthecat (Mar 8, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Was a documentary on Porton Down two or three years ago, they were naturally quite coy, but strongly alluded to having created something that is pretty mush instantly fatal with the tiniest of tiny doses, with no antidote possible. He did look pretty spooked even talking about it


An army colonel of my acquaintance has just said (whilst discussing this incident) that it was clearly a pretty shit nerve agent if it didn't kill the bloke immediately and the Russians should be ashamed of themselves - apparently we DO have much better chemicals, which is frankly terrifying


----------



## existentialist (Mar 8, 2018)

felixthecat said:


> An army colonel of my acquaintance has just said (whilst discussing this incident) that it was clearly a pretty shit nerve agent if it didn't kill the bloke immediately and the Russians should be ashamed of themselves - apparently we DO have much better chemicals, which is frankly terrifying


But, in a way, if the purpose of poisoning him isn't so much simply to take him out of circulation (ie. kill him), as to send a very frightening message to people, it doesn't matter if he dies instantly - indeed, it might be better from that point of view if his condition remains uncertain for a longer period of time.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 8, 2018)

felixthecat said:


> An army colonel of my acquaintance has just said (whilst discussing this incident) that it was clearly a pretty shit nerve agent if it didn't kill the bloke immediately and the Russians should be ashamed of themselves - apparently we DO have much better chemicals, which is frankly terrifying



While not wishing to comment on the agent itself, I'm more inclined to think it's a botched _delivery _than a dud agent. There was an interview on BBC radio yesterday with a Bulgarian (?) waitress who works at the coffee shop where it's assumed the agent was delivered - she was saying that she'd had a conversation with a Russia man, not the victim, several times recently, who spoke perfect, accented Russian and who had let her practice her Russian on him.

It could be coincidence, it might not be...

A state supplied nerve agent is a very, very deadly thing. While it's possible they've screwed up the manufacture or storage, I'd bet heavy money on it being the delivery that's gone wrong.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 8, 2018)

kebabking said:


> While not wishing to comment on the agent itself, I'm more inclined to think it's a botched _delivery _than a dud agent. There was an interview on BBC radio yesterday with a Bulgarian (?) waitress who works at the coffee shop where it's assumed the agent was delivered - she was saying that she'd had a conversation with a Russia man, not the victim, several times recently, who spoke perfect, accented Russian and who had let her practice her Russian on him.



Bulgarian huh? Did she have an umbrella?


----------



## T & P (Mar 8, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Was a documentary on Porton Down two or three years ago, they were naturally quite coy, but strongly alluded to having created something that is pretty mush instantly fatal with the tiniest of tiny doses, with no antidote possible. He did look pretty spooked even talking about it


I think they've called it Chucklehead.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 8, 2018)

kebabking said:


> I'm more inclined to think it's a botched _delivery _than a dud agent … A state supplied nerve agent is a very, very deadly thing. While it's possible they've screwed up the manufacture or storage, I'd bet heavy money on it being the delivery that's gone wrong.


As mentioned above, mixing a binary in the field almost certainly requires a fair bit of skill, both in avoiding self contamination and unintended collateral damage, but also in achieving the target dose at the point of delivery. Possibly the state involved in this instance doesn’t have quite as large an expendable pool of test subjects as a certain other country might have to practice on. Alternatively, perhaps the intention was not necessarily to kill but simply to demonstrate and convey a message. Use of specific precursors (which will strongly hint at the source) might also be an explicit calling card (aimed specifically at the investigating authorities or to convey a message via them to others they would naturally share that information with).


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## Indeliblelink (Mar 8, 2018)

They've cordoned off his wife's grave. 
Spy poisoning: Police cordon off Skripal's wife's grave as Russia accused of 'brazen act of war'


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 8, 2018)

Is this the famous Russian 'dark humour' at play or more sinister?

Russian state TV anchor warns 'traitors'


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## LDC (Mar 8, 2018)

Public assassination job with a nerve agent in a foreign country... do you send your best man, or your most expendable?!

Didn't the team that did Litvinenko splash the polonium about rather more liberally than you'd think they would given its lethality?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 8, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Didn't the team that did Litvinenko splash the polonium about rather more liberally than you'd think they would given its lethality?


A very messy operation but Po-210 is only really dangerous if ingested/inhaled. There may have been a point to leaving a trail, as hinted at above. You probably send a fairly well trained agent lest it goes completely pear shaped and the message is lost, or they sell/are relieved of the gift to/by other enterprises en route.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 8, 2018)

Poisoned Russian spy Sergei Skripal was close to consultant who was linked to the Trump dossier

More twists than Le Carre here.....


----------



## tim (Mar 8, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Bulgarian huh? Did she have an umbrella?



Maria Popovins and her lethal spoonful of sugar


----------



## 2hats (Mar 8, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Poisoned Russian spy Sergei Skripal was close to consultant who was linked to the Trump dossier
> 
> More twists than Le Carre here.....


Keep up at the back.

However here some doubt cast on it...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 8, 2018)

Oops.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 9, 2018)

It was claimed (albeit in passing!  ) in a Guardian article the other day, that the retired-spy man had 'developed a taste for local ale' of late  , after he'd joined a social club in Salisbury.

Can't be arsed to find the link for the above, for related reasons 

But just be aware, everyone, that getting that bit too close to certain 'CAMRA agents'  risks annoying the wrong people .....


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 9, 2018)

Troops deployed after Russian spy poisoning

Military called in. Hmmmmm. What else is going on there?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 9, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Troops deployed after Russian spy poisoning
> 
> Military called in. Hmmmmm. What else is going on there?



Not a lot - the civil authorities have a limited capacity to deal with nerve agents and the like, while the military have, unsurprisingly, a larger capacity. 

In blunt terms, half the coppers and SOCO's who are trained to deal with such chemicals south of Newcastle upon Tyne will have dealing with this for the best part of a week - the ability of the civil authorities to continue dealing with this event _and _deal with any subsequent event is about exhausted. They need help, and the military is the only organisation with the capacity to do so.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 9, 2018)

Decontamination is a massive PITA when your doing it on an airfield in the middle of nowhere trying to decontam middle of Salisbury completely different level of pain bleach and fullers earth any car nearby is off to portons downs scrapheap good luck with the insurance company nerve gas contamination probably isn't covered


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 9, 2018)

likesfish said:


> LSD is an incapative agent unfortunately nobody knows how to get dose into someone who doesnt want to take it .	you can hardly spike an entire battlegroup



Oh yeah?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 10, 2018)




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## not-bono-ever (Mar 10, 2018)

that film almost looks setup. Almost


----------



## dylanredefined (Mar 10, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Oh yeah?
> 
> [/QUOTE
> Given to them not deployed as a weapon against them.




weaponising lsd has proven impossible.


----------



## pesh (Mar 10, 2018)

likesfish said:


> LSD is an incapative agent unfortunately nobody knows how to get dose into someone who doesnt want to take it .	you can hardly spike an entire battlegroup


I can think of a few ways ranging from rum punch to water cannon


----------



## likesfish (Mar 10, 2018)

not really a practical option on the battlefield or a riot etc.
pity really


----------



## NoXion (Mar 10, 2018)

likesfish said:


> not really a practical option on the battlefield or a riot etc.
> pity really



Why a pity? LSD isn't really a poison, but at the same time it can produce a frightening experience, even for people who know that they've taken it and have some idea of what to expect. In a high-stress environment like a battlefield or a riot such effects would seem likely to be lead to nightmarish outcomes, especially with weapons involved.


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 10, 2018)

kebabking said:


> While not wishing to comment on the agent itself, I'm more inclined to think it's a botched _delivery _than a dud agent. There was an interview on BBC radio yesterday with a Bulgarian (?) waitress who works at the coffee shop where it's assumed the agent was delivered - she was saying that she'd had a conversation with a Russia man, not the victim, several times recently, who spoke perfect, accented Russian and who had let her practice her Russian on him.
> 
> It could be coincidence, it might not be...
> 
> A state supplied nerve agent is a very, very deadly thing. While it's possible they've screwed up the manufacture or storage, I'd bet heavy money on it being the delivery that's gone wrong.



My understanding is that there are lots of Cold War era weapons of all sorts in semi-private and private Russian hands after the break up of the Soviet Union. It's one of the countries where a nerve agent attack may quite easily come from non-state sources.


----------



## dylanredefined (Mar 10, 2018)

NoXion said:


> Why a pity? LSD isn't really a poison, but at the same time it can produce a frightening experience, even for people who know that they've taken it and have some idea of what to expect. In a high-stress environment like a battlefield or a riot such effects would seem likely to be lead to nightmarish outcomes, especially with weapons involved.


 Only incapacitate worth a damm is mustard agent. Think I d prefer getting sprayed with lsd than mustard gas.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 10, 2018)

NoXion said:


> Why a pity? LSD isn't really a poison, but at the same time it can produce a frightening experience, even for people who know that they've taken it and have some idea of what to expect. In a high-stress environment like a battlefield or a riot such effects would seem likely to be lead to nightmarish outcomes, especially with weapons involved.




well compared to nerve agents like sarin or VX or napalm high explosive or thermobaric a dose of LSD is an infinitely better outcome 
all the above are definitely lethal


----------



## likesfish (Mar 10, 2018)

stuff_it said:


> My understanding is that there are lots of Cold War era weapons of all sorts in semi-private and private Russian hands after the break up of the Soviet Union. It's one of the countries where a nerve agent attack may quite easily come from non-state sources.




nerve agent is not something non-state actors would keep hanging about most of the really nasty stuff has a use by date. fuchs66 was the chemical weapons expert.

chances are a binary agent was used. two chemicals which you mix before use. because you'd have to be insane to covertly move an active nerve agent unlike North Korea the agents probably didn't get to practice on live targets till they got it down pat


----------



## not a trot (Mar 10, 2018)

likesfish said:


> nerve agent is not something non-state actors would keep hanging about most of the really nasty stuff has a use by date. fuchs66 was the chemical weapons expert.
> 
> chances are a binary agent was used. two chemicals which you mix before use. because you'd have to be insane to covertly move an active nerve agent unlike North Korea the agents probably didn't get to practice on live targets till they got it down pat



Is the use by date the same as the best before date ?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 10, 2018)

He's got to be taking the piss.

Russian state TV warns 'traitors' not to settle in England



> Russian state television has warned “traitors” and Kremlin critics that they should not settle in England because of an increased risk of dying in mysterious circumstances.
> 
> “Don’t choose England as a place to live. Whatever the reasons, whether you’re a professional traitor to the motherland or you just hate your country in your spare time, I repeat, no matter, don’t move to England,” the presenter Kirill Kleymenov said during a news programme on Channel One, state TV’s flagship station.
> 
> “Something is not right there. Maybe it’s the climate. But in recent years there have been too many strange incidents with a grave outcome. People get hanged, poisoned, they die in helicopter crashes and fall out of windows in industrial quantities,” Kleymenov said....


----------



## tim (Mar 10, 2018)

The 1995 Tokyo subway sarin attacks were carried out by Aum Shinrikyo a religious cult, not a state . They managed to seemingly safely  manafacture the sarin and effectively deliver it.

Surely, there are groups and individuals in both Russia and Britain   rich and competent enough to do the same.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 10, 2018)

tim said:


> The 1995 Tokyo subway sarin attacks were carried out by Aum Shinrikyo a religious cult, not a state . They managed to seemingly safely  manafacture the sarin and effectively deliver it.
> 
> Surely, there are groups and individuals in both Russia and Britain   rich and competent enough to do the same.



they were a suicide cult that didn't care about getting away with it.
 its much harder to get people who want to survive and try to get away with it especially when its a targeted attack rather than justkick off the apocayplse


----------



## 2hats (Mar 10, 2018)

tim said:


> The 1995 Tokyo subway sarin attacks were carried out by Aum Shinrikyo a religious cult, not a state . They managed to seemingly safely  manafacture the sarin and effectively deliver it.


They didn’t manage to manufacture it entirely safely: a member of Aum Shinrikyo, an organic chemist, produced research quantities of the G agent sarin (he also produced similar levels of soman and VX, all of varying quality). In order to scale up sarin production they sought (and got) help from senior Russian officials in building a small plant. When they had accidents in production they sought their help again to clean the mess up (this is all documented in subsequent Japanese trial paperwork). They badly poisoned and killed some cult members during production and early trials.

(Aum tried to use the VX to kill several people they believed might threaten them in separate individual attacks but only succeeded once, the other times the product and/or delivery being ineffective. They tried to kill others with sarin in small targeted attacks but more often than not ended up killing others than their intended victims eg once when the wind changed direction on them during dispersal.)

They didn't deliver the sarin very effectively: some 13 people died across multiple lines of the Tokyo subway system at rush hour. If they had been able to deliver it effectively, weaponise it (which is, along with storage and handling, one of the really hard parts), then that number would more likely have been in the thousands to tens of thousands. Furthermore, they also used a suboptimal route for the production of the nerve agent for that attack and this significantly reduced its toxicity.


> Surely, there are groups and individuals in both Russia and Britain   rich and competent enough to do the same.


As per the above, any postgrad organic chemist could produce samples (e2a: providing they have a large budget and access to suitable industrial suppliers, as Aum did) but it’s the upscaling, handling, storage, delivery of it that is tricky. Binaries help here (Aum didn’t produce a binary), particularly if an assailant intends to use them for assassination purposes and hopes to get away with it and their life intact (several of the cult members poisoned themselves in the process of trying to leave the sarin on the subway).

Here it appears we have a novel/rare agent delivered without apparent harm to an assailant and minimal collateral damage. This tends to point to a level of training and sophistication associated with a state player.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 10, 2018)

likesfish said:


> nerve agent is not something non-state actors would keep hanging about most of the really nasty stuff has a use by date. fuchs66 was the chemical weapons expert.


Several of the agents are quite volatile once prepared (particularly some of the more ‘easily’ produced ones).


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## T & P (Mar 10, 2018)

Given that at his height ISIS had a considerable amount of money to both buy equipment and recruit/ bribe people, I’m surprised they haven’t managed to procure some nerve agent. Unless the issue is smuggling it into Europe. And unlike the Japanese lot, they have the luxury of not caring about their own safety.


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## likesfish (Mar 11, 2018)

Nerve agent is horribly lethal but the delivery over a wide area to inflict mass casualties is really complex that’s why it fell out of favour as a battlefield weapon you have to saturate an area with agent one bomb not so much.

That’s why the chemical attacks in Syria have been remarkably less than catastrophic


----------



## kebabking (Mar 11, 2018)

tim said:


> The 1995 Tokyo subway sarin attacks were carried out by Aum Shinrikyo a religious cult, not a state . They managed to seemingly safely  manafacture the sarin and effectively deliver it.
> 
> Surely, there are groups and individuals in both Russia and Britain   rich and competent enough to do the same.



I would suggest that neither the UK nor Russian governmentss have a _laissez-faire _attitude to private groups or individuals producing nerve agents or other NBCR weapons on their territories, regardless of in what direction those groups or individuals might wish to point those weapons....

To be clear, this is the use of a dispersed CW within the territory of a state that has nuclear weapons and a declared policy of its willingness to use those weapons to retaliate against the use of NBCR weapons on its territory or against its citizens or interests. 

I leave that hanging there, much like the sword of Damocles...


----------



## elbows (Mar 11, 2018)

kebabking said:


> To be clear, this is the use of a dispersed CW within the territory of a state that has nuclear weapons and a declared policy of its willingness to use those weapons to retaliate against the use of NBCR weapons on its territory or against its citizens or interests.
> 
> I leave that hanging there, much like the sword of Damocles...



I feel only indifference towards this, because the nuclear threat and deterrent is a somewhat weird thing. It's such a big, dramatic threat with such serious consequences, that there are all manner of situations where it would be a disproportionate response to the situation. Chuck in the mutually assured destruction bit and I find the nuclear stuff quite meaningless in regards this sort of incident. No matter the rhetoric.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 11, 2018)

kebabking said:


> I would suggest that neither the UK nor Russian governmentss have a _laissez-faire _attitude to private groups or individuals producing nerve agents or other NBCR weapons on their territories, regardless of in what direction those groups or individuals might wish to point those weapons....


Absolutely.


> To be clear, this is the use of a dispersed CW within the territory of a state that has nuclear weapons and a declared policy of its willingness to use those weapons to retaliate against the use of NBCR weapons on its territory or against its citizens or interests.
> 
> I leave that hanging there, much like the sword of Damocles...


That sword is, as demonstrated clearly by this event and Litvinenko before it (and quite probably a number of other cases), quite limp. Uncle Vlad is likely pretty sure there is no scenario short of a final full nuclear exchange in which HMG will roll out the instant sunshine. I suspect he is right.

Meanwhile, all visitors to the Zizzi restaurant in Salisbury, (finally) now being asked by the chief medical officer of England to self-decontaminate, I see.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 11, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> It was claimed (albeit in passing!  ) in a Guardian article the other day, that the retired-spy man had 'developed a taste for local ale' of late  , after he'd joined a social club in Salisbury.



Based on the number of obituaries for CAMRA members "who went too soon" (never that surprising considering their primary hobby is  getting pissed) in their monthly bulletin the Russians should have just waited and let nature (or is that 8 pints of the finest on a daily basis) take its course.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 11, 2018)

Follow the money.

Philip Hammond refuses plea from Litvinenko's widow for Tories to pay back more than £8o0,000 of donations from Russian oligarchs


----------



## 2hats (Mar 12, 2018)

Novichok variant. (Pretty much nails the responsibility on the door of the Kremlin).


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 12, 2018)

We are apparently sending a strongly worded letter to Russia asking "yo, what the fuck?"


----------



## andysays (Mar 12, 2018)

Breaking news
Russian spy: Highly likely Moscow behind attack, says Theresa May


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2018)

andysays said:


> Breaking news
> Russian spy: Highly likely Moscow behind attack, says Theresa May



Nice that she has caught up with everyone else.


----------



## davesgcr (Mar 12, 2018)

Just been reading "Stalin;s Englishman" - the life and times of Guy Burgess - notable nasty drunken "toff" who with Philby , Maclean and Blunt - the jeunesse dore (sic) of Cambridge who gave much away to the Ruski's in the 1940's and 1950's. 

However , Burgess at least lived a lonely and increasingly drunken life as a "guest" of the Russians , no garlic bread and rissotto in Salisbury for him - pined for England , maybe he ought to have cleaned up his act and acted as a gentleman , as opposed to a total , insalubrious traitor of the worse mendacious characteristics. My view of course. 

Quite fascinating stuff - brought down the intellectual Goronwy Rees , one time Principal of UC Aberystwyth , - hence my random interest ....


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2018)

Woodcock and Leslie really are the most disgusting human beings ever to grace Parliament.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 12, 2018)

andysays said:


> Breaking news
> Russian spy: Highly likely Moscow behind attack, says Theresa May





> Mrs May said: "Either this was a direct action by the Russian state against our country, or the Russian government lost control of its potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others."



It's the former, Tess. Never mind though, I'm sure you're going to give them a strong telling off; maybe expel a couple of their chaps, they'll expel a couple of ours, then we can all get back to business as usual.


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It's the former, Tess. Never mind though, I'm sure you're going to give them a strong telling off; maybe expel a couple of their chaps, they'll expel a couple of ours, then we can all get back to business as usual.



If the Russians have any sense of humour at all, they should say that the only remaining unaccounted for vial of the substance was given to an unnamed agent of a then-allied intelligence service in late-80s London who said he wanted to see whether it would work on his allotment.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It's the former, Tess. Never mind though, I'm sure you're going to give them a strong telling off; maybe expel a couple of their chaps, they'll expel a couple of ours, then we can all get back to business as usual.



The *Spymaster* knows best.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 12, 2018)

agricola said:


> If the Russians have any sense of humour at all, they should say that the only remaining unaccounted for vial of the substance was given to an unnamed agent of a then-allied intelligence service in late-80s London who said he wanted to see whether it would work on his allotment.


McDonnel has sworn on his mams life that he is never going to appear on RT again.


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 12, 2018)

isn't it funny how friendless we are at the moment. zero comment from trump (so much for the 'special relationship') macron and merkel. cant see us taking decisive action. didn't last time the russians did it. cant see it being any different now


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 12, 2018)

agricola said:


> Woodcock and Leslie really are the most disgusting human beings ever to grace Parliament.



I fear this lacks historical perspective.


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2018)

Have just watched the speech again - I wonder why she never mentioned the MH-17 shootdown?  You'd think that an incident where Russia's armed forces almost certainly caused the death of British citizens would have made that list of stuff that Putin had done.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2018)

donkyboy said:


> isn't it funny how friendless we are at the moment. zero comment from trump (so much for the 'special relationship') macron and merkel. cant see us taking decisive action. didn't last time the russians did it. cant see it being any different now



Considering May has only just announced it's likely to be down to Russia, it's hardly surprising other leaders haven't commented, that would be jumping the gun somewhat.


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 12, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Considering May has only just announced it's likely to be down to Russia, it's hardly surprising other leaders haven't commented, that would be jumping the gun somewhat.



jumping the gun? trump has a history of 'jumping the gun'. just look at his numerous stupid tweets on sadiq khan during the terror attacks. he certainly wasted little time to get his twitter fingers going.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2018)

donkyboy said:


> jumping the gun? trump has a history of 'jumping the gun'. just look at his numerous stupid tweets on sadiq khan during the terror attacks. he certainly wasted little time to get his twitter fingers going.



My comment was more about Macron and Merkel, I tend to ignore Trump the cunt.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 12, 2018)

agricola said:


> Have just watched the speech again - I wonder why she never mentioned the MH-17 shootdown?  You'd think that an incident where Russia's armed forces almost certainly caused the death of British citizens would have made that list of stuff that Putin had done.


It is still the subject of an on-going criminal investigation in Holland so there is perhaps that. However that sorry episode did underline the quite brazen lengths the Russian military and authorities would go to to blatantly lie and try to misdirect and confuse the public/media.


donkyboy said:


> isn't it funny how friendless we are at the moment. zero comment from trump (so much for the 'special relationship') macron and merkel. cant see us taking decisive action. didn't last time the russians did it. cant see it being any different now


The WH press secretary has just, finally, made a supportive statement (scroll down the thread).


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2018)

2hats said:


> It is still the subject of an on-going criminal investigation in Holland so there is perhaps that. However that sorry episode did underline the quite brazen lengths the Russian military and authorities would go to to blatantly lie and try to misdirect and confuse the public/media.



I doubt it - the Intelligence and Security Committee has already said in its 2016/17 Parliamentary report that the Russian Government is responsible for it "beyond all reasonable doubt".


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 12, 2018)

if this was any hint Iran was behind something like this, I guarantee you france, germany and trump would not have wasted a second to comment. but hey, that's realpolitik for you.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 12, 2018)

What would be a reasonable response to this?

How about letting our own assassins loose in Moscow? Whack a few FSB dudes with something better than whatever they used? In McDonalds? I'm pretty sure they don't have Zizzi's. Moscow restaurants are generally pretty shite.


----------



## LDC (Mar 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What would be a reasonable response to this?



Not what you then suggest methinks. A strongly worded letter and the odd angry speech or two, but mostly ignore it would be my suggestion.


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What would be a reasonable response to this?
> 
> How about letting our own assassins loose in Moscow? Whack a few FSB dudes with something better than whatever they used? In McDonalds? I'm pretty sure they don't have Zizzi's. Moscow restaurants are generally pretty shite.



the russians have a history of doing this on british soil. I  guess our morals prevent us doing the same to them. i would love us to target the oligarchs who love to buy homes here and send their kids to private schools and fancy universities in the UK. kick them out and freeze their assets. but May was not interested in taking tough actions when she was home secretary, so i have little faith in her now.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 12, 2018)

"our morals" really?


----------



## vanya (Mar 12, 2018)

Agreed - attack these Russian oligarchs over here. Put the pressure on them.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 12, 2018)

'Our morals' indeed haha, it's a bit rich ascribing such things to the UK establishment, who let's face it call the shots over this. Some response is needed however but what options are available and feasible is not something I would claim to know about.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

its election time

Putin needs to put some iron behind his words

maybe skripal was just a name on a list of publicly know traitors that served a purpose to show vlad has a long memory. its could be that random. that unlucky


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Mar 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It's the former, Tess. Never mind though, I'm sure you're going to give them a strong telling off; maybe expel a couple of their chaps, they'll expel a couple of ours, then we can all get back to business as usual.



A kind of taunt, to Vlad, maybe? Did you do this, or are you just so incompetent that you can't even look after your own chemical weapons?

Or an easy out, offering a lie we'd be prepared to swallow, to avoid a big diplomatic kerfuffle?

Only two rational reasons I can think of for saying it...


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 12, 2018)

teqniq said:


> 'Our morals' indeed haha, it's a bit rich ascribing such things to the UK establishment, who let's face it call the shots over this. Some response is needed however but what options are available and feasible is not something I would claim to know about.



 trying to think when we last used nerve agents to kill anyone on foreign soil-unless you want to dig up Churchill and of course our not too bothered about attack on Kurds by mr hussien...


----------



## teqniq (Mar 12, 2018)

We supplied some of the chemicals to them that made it possible, so much for morals eh?


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 12, 2018)

thought so.

Edit. Probably morals is indeed the wrong word to use. On reflection we wouldn't dare try it on russian soil as we are scared of the russian reaction. they don't seem to give a shit about doing anything anywhere.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 12, 2018)

Jon-of-arc said:


> A kind of taunt, to Vlad, maybe? Did you do this, or are you just so incompetent that you can't even look after your own chemical weapons?
> 
> Or an easy out, offering a lie we'd be prepared to swallow, to avoid a big diplomatic kerfuffle?
> 
> Only two rational reasons I can think of for saying it...


Well it's all just bollocks isn't it? Everyone's doing this silly little political dance for the sake of the media whilst everyone knows full fucking well what's happen here. More to the point, Putin WANTS the whole world to know that the Kremlin did it. They're not even holding their hands behind their backs whilst they're denying it with their fingers crossed. They are very openly taking the piss.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What would be a reasonable response to this?
> 
> How about letting our own assassins loose in Moscow? Whack a few FSB dudes with something better than whatever they used? In McDonalds? I'm pretty sure they don't have Zizzi's. Moscow restaurants are generally pretty shite.



the FIB  took the arse out of our russian setup a while ago by all accounts. there are no false passports and wigs being used theses days , the assistant trade attache at the Moscow embassy ( not really , but YKWIM) is under 24/7 surveillence. as are pretty all of his once extensive contacts , we couldnt arrange much more than a piss up in an irish pub in Russia now


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2018)

teqniq said:


> 'Our morals' indeed haha, it's a bit rich ascribing such things to the UK establishment, who let's face it call the shots over this. Some response is needed however but what options are available and feasible is not something I would claim to know about.



Indeed.  

One can even read May's speech as a deliberate attempt to minimize the likely response - it was a mix of things we have done ourselves (invading / interfereing militarily in other countries, Parliamentary approval for extrajudicial killing of terrorists and dissidents), things that are in vogue at present (fake news, election interference) and things that are frankly bizarre to include at a time like this (hacking the Danish MoD and the Bundestag).  The most relevant act - Litvinenko's assassination - only made it in right at the end (and she said "_and of course Russia used radiological substances in its barbaric assault on Mr Litvenenko_", which is an odd way of describing his murder), and as I said above the killing of 300 entirely innocent people (including Brits) by blowing their airliner out of the sky never made it in at all.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 12, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> the FIB  took the arse out of our russian setup a while ago by all accounts. there are no false passports and wigs being used theses days , the assistant trade attache at the Moscow embassy ( not really , but YKWIM) is under 24/7 surveillence. as are pretty all of his once extensive contacts , we couldt arrange much more than a piss up in an irish pub in Russia now


Maybe threaten them with some plastic rocks?

PS Ex-KGB intelligence officer Boris Karpichkov was on TV earlier today stating that a source of his in the FSB warned him last month that he and Skripal were, along with others, going to be targeted.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

2hats said:


> Maybe threaten them with some plastic rocks?
> 
> PS Ex-KGB intelligence officer Boris Karpichkov was on TV earlier today stating that a source of his in the FSB warned him last month that he and Skripal were, along with others, going to be targeted.


 
aha, i missed this - so it could have been a name on a list then.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 12, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> aha, i missed this - so it could have been a name on a list then.


Supposedly, besides him and Skripal:

Oleg Gordievsky
Bill Browder
Christopher Steele
Igor Sutyagine
Yuri Shvets
Vladimir Rezun (aka Viktor Suvorov)


----------



## agricola (Mar 12, 2018)

2hats said:


> Supposedly, besides him and Skripal:
> 
> Oleg Gordievsky
> Bill Browder
> ...



Suvorov's been here for forty years, they would have to either be very bloodthirsty or very concerned about the declining quality of historical research to go after him.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 12, 2018)

Apparently Boris Jonson has had the chief russian bod in london over to demand wtf is going on before the end of tomorrow. Bet that was a fun conversation


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

Boris will shit his pants and get the whiteface when the Ambassdor passes across a copy of the *dossier* they have on him


----------



## teqniq (Mar 12, 2018)

agricola said:


> Suvorov's been here for forty years, they would have to either be very bloodthirsty or very concerned about the declining quality of historical research to go after him.


It's like you said though, they shot down an airliner full of civilians and nothing was done, they really don't give a shit and now we hear there's a list. It'll be like some warped version of Dale's Supermarket Sweep...'How many can you get on the list before the Presidential elections????'


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2018)

teqniq said:


> It's like you said though, they shot down an airliner full of civilians and nothing was done



And another one containing most of the Polish government.

Allegedly


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 12, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> And another one containing most of the Polish government.
> 
> Allegedly


I thought that had been disproved?


----------



## Badgers (Mar 12, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Boris will shit his pants and get the whiteface when the Ambassdor passes across a copy of the *dossier* they have on him


At least he can 100% count on support from our closest allies across the Atlantic. If not our comrades in Europe will rally round.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 12, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> *Boris will shit his pants* and get the whiteface when the Ambassdor passes across a copy of the *dossier* they have on him


Pretty much guaranteed if they sprinkle a little Novichok in between the pages.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2018)

Analysis from Chatham House.

The Skripal Attack Is a Test for the UK


----------



## agricola (Mar 13, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Analysis from Chatham House.
> 
> The Skripal Attack Is a Test for the UK



Hard to argue with any of that.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 13, 2018)

So after weeks of the loyal press painting Corbyn as a communist agent we get a Russian spy ‘hit’ and the government gets to strut about waving spears for a few weeks looking tough. “Good job we don’t have some traitorous pinko running the place at the time of such a crisis...”



(On a more serious note they will exploit this as much as possible, looking for the Falklands effect. Not sure having a clown as foreign sec will be reassuring to the public mind)


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Mar 13, 2018)

On a purely practical level, how does a chemical like this get delivered to the victims?

Put in their tagliatelle at Zizzi's by the new member of staff with a suspicious Russian accent? Or sprayed on them when they were sitting on the bench? Seems like the latter if the copper attending to them was also affected? But then there would be the risk of more innocent victims passing by?

Does the nerve agent have an instant effect? Sorry for my ignorance, just interested to know.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 13, 2018)

Rosemary Jest said:


> On a purely practical level, how does a chemical like this get delivered to the victims?
> 
> Put in their tagliatelle at Zizzi's by the new member of staff with a suspicious Russian accent? Or sprayed on them when they were sitting on the bench? Seems like the latter if the copper attending to them was also affected? But then there would be the risk of more innocent victims passing by?
> 
> Does the nerve agent have an instant effect? Sorry for my ignorance, just interested to know.


I think they’re generally caused to ingest it somehow. That was the case with Litvinenko and the Polinium. I would have thought that spraying it around would be too hazardous to others nearby, including the assassin.


----------



## Rosemary Jest (Mar 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I think they’re generally caused to ingest it somehow. That was the case with Litvinenko and the Polinium. I would have thought that spraying it around would be too hazardous to others nearby, including the assassin.



Makes sense, but how was the copper affected by it too?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 13, 2018)

Rosemary Jest said:


> Makes sense, but how was the copper affected by it too?


Pure guesswork but perhaps they vomited or spat on him.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 13, 2018)

They think they got exposed to the agent at home now iirc.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 13, 2018)

According to the Graun, Novichok has common effects with other nerve agents but the key difference is its persistence- other agents rapidly decay and disperse - Novichok hangs around. Hence the extraordinary measures we are seeing in Salisbury. Might mean that whoever delivered it could have used a method that meant they could have left a dose, say, sprayed in a car interior in advance of the victims arriving, without being contaminated themselves. Use of this agent seems very deliberate - to leave an exotic signature, persistent detectable traces and public terror....,


----------



## pesh (Mar 13, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Analysis from Chatham House.
> The Skripal Attack Is a Test for the UK


i'm liking the picture they went with...





Strong response? hell yeah, we sent a PCSO over, she's got the whole place on lockdown. Moscow are shitting themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

that looks like a copper wearing a black face mask to me. i wonder what squirrelp makes of it


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

pesh said:


> Moscow are shitting themselves.


yeh that can happen if you laugh too much


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

Discreet calls have been made to see how much support there is for a move to exclude Russian banks and financials from the swift payment system. I gather support has been far less than lukewarm and the Bank of England is holding its head in its hands as we speak. Cash is king as they say.

Its been done with Iran and NK but Russia is a rather different fish


----------



## kebabking (Mar 13, 2018)

Rosemary Jest said:


> On a purely practical level, how does a chemical like this get delivered to the victims?
> 
> Put in their tagliatelle at Zizzi's by the new member of staff with a suspicious Russian accent? Or sprayed on them when they were sitting on the bench? Seems like the latter if the copper attending to them was also affected? But then there would be the risk of more innocent victims passing by?
> 
> Does the nerve agent have an instant effect? Sorry for my ignorance, just interested to know.



the heavier money seems to be on the delivery location being at his home - with the method being perhaps a letter or card (possibly a condolence card hence his daughter getting seriously exposed as well) or flowers. the police officer was exposed at the house, which is where the greatest contamination would be.


----------



## DownwardDog (Mar 13, 2018)

It's a pity that Kasually Krasniy has gone. I would have enjoyed seeing him explain how Ukraine/Israel/Hillary was actually behind this business.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 13, 2018)

DownwardDog said:


> It's a pity that Kasually Krasniy has gone. I would have enjoyed seeing him explain how Ukraine/Israel/Hillary was actually behind this business.



oh theres still plenty of them around.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

he has probably been reassigned to another role and handed over his brief to another apparatchik


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

Rosemary Jest said:


> On a purely practical level, how does a chemical like this get delivered to the victims?
> …
> Does the nerve agent have an instant effect? Sorry for my ignorance, just interested to know.


Time to onset of effects will likely depend on the variant of Novichok (there are many, with variously differing properties, and perhaps this one has been specifically engineered for delayed effect); nerve agents are usually quick acting (certainly ones produced for battlefield use). Then one might need to consider any substrate used to convey it (aerosol probably unlikely but powder, gel, liquid) plus the details of the physical situation/environment and mechanism of the delivery (parcel sent to the house, gift from a ‘friend’ to place on a grave, deposited on/in his car, dusted on his clothing at some point, etc). Was the daughter an unwitting courier? Is there another party involved perhaps known to the victim? Or was the delivery cack-handed and we are just seeing some of the dots from the subsequent mess? At the moment there are obviously too few data points in the public domain to inform anything other than speculation and it may of course remain that way for a long time.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 13, 2018)

Novichok sounds like some version of a Kinder egg!


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

Sprocket. said:


> Novichok sounds like some version of a Kinder egg!


Surprise! Leggy wobble.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 13, 2018)

DownwardDog said:


> It's a pity that Kasually Krasniy has gone.



What makes you think he’s gone? Two months of not posting isn’t a massive amount of time.


----------



## jusali (Mar 13, 2018)

So the UK is going to retaliate, can't see this ending well.


----------



## Supine (Mar 13, 2018)

Not much response from NATO countries as far as I can tell #BrexitBritain #friendless


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

jusali said:


> So the UK is going to retaliate, can't see this ending well.


being as theresa may has all the political nous of a lobotomised lobster we are, in technical parlance, fucked.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

jusali said:


> So the UK is going to retaliate, can't see this ending well.


yeh theresa may has dispatched james bond to russia with a spotted dick.


----------



## jusali (Mar 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh theresa may has dispatched james bond to russia with a spotted dick.


007-Syph UK's new biological weapon


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

The only practical way the UK could retaliate would be economic and that would be a token guesture to the £££ in London that is Russian in origin - we would lose out.

Anyway - some spies try to top another spy/ ex spy who took our money to grass up his mates - there is no moral high ground here really we can take

/discuss


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

jusali said:


> So the UK is going to retaliate, can't see this ending well.


I’ve already donned my Joo Janta 200 superchromatic peril sensitive sunglasses after a dip in Dulux brilliant white non-drip gloss.


Supine said:


> Not much response from NATO countries as far as I can tell #BrexitBritain #friendless


But at least the government** is taking back control!

** Russian


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 13, 2018)

Russia now demanding a sample of Novichok -


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What makes you think he’s gone?


... or that he ever went away


----------



## kebabking (Mar 13, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> The only practical way the UK could retaliate would be economic and that would be a token guesture to the £££ in London that is Russian in origin - we would lose out.
> 
> Anyway - some spies try to top another spy/ ex spy who took our money to grass up his mates - there is no moral high ground here really we can take
> 
> /discuss



i disagree, vehmently.

i'm not going to climb on my horse for the life of a traitor, treason is a game that has big boys rules, well established big boys rules, and if our friend had answered the door to a pair of 9mm to the head then i'd have been a little unhappy, but meh..

however, this is the use of poison, a very, _very_ dangerous poison that unless it was delivered _personally_ to the target could have gone anywhere (how many times has your neighbours post, or flowers, or parcels been delivered to you?), and even once it was delivered correctly, was then spread all over a small city, and other people who were not the targets have been exposed to it, and have become very seriously ill - and certainly in the case of the daughter, may well die from it.

that is a _reckless_ act, and if they can be reckless about not caring that it was going to be spread over everything and everyone the target/s touched for hours after exposure, then perhaps they could be reckless about the dose - a decimal point here, a decimal point there, and suddenly its not three in hospital, its thirty, or three hundred, or three thousand. perhaps writing the wrong address on the envelope and it goes to a house down the road with three kids under 5, or the postie accidentally drops the letter and it goes into the water supply...


----------



## agricola (Mar 13, 2018)

kebabking said:


> i disagree, vehmently.
> 
> i'm not going to climb on my horse for the life of a traitor, treason is a game that has big boys rules, well established big boys rules, and if our friend had answered the door to a pair of 9mm to the head then i'd have been a little unhappy, but meh..
> 
> ...



Well exactly.  This demands a response, and (as the article teqniq posted last night argued) was probably carried out to see what our response would be.


----------



## elbows (Mar 13, 2018)

kebabking said:


> (how many times has your neighbours post, or flowers, or parcels been delivered to you?)



Yes that happens but I dont then open the incorrectly delivered item!



> or three thousand. perhaps writing the wrong address on the envelope and it goes to a house down the road with three kids under 5, or the postie accidentally drops the letter and it goes into the water supply...



I understand your broad point but I dont think there was any need to over-egg it to this laughable extent. I may as well watch a shit hysterical documentary about dirty bombs.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 129914
> that looks like a copper wearing a black face mask to me. i wonder what squirrelp makes of it


I imagine squirrelp's tinfoil hat has exploded.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> The only practical way the UK could retaliate would be economic and that would be a token guesture to the £££ in London that is Russian in origin - we would lose out.
> 
> Anyway - some spies try to top another spy/ ex spy who took our money to grass up his mates - there is no moral high ground here really we can take
> 
> /discuss


I think chucking a nerve agent all over the centre of a provincial town is going to require some kind of response, if only because it's likely that people in general might be a bit miffed at the idea that a foreign power can apparently do so with apparent impunity.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2018)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Russia now demanding a sample of Novichok -



I keep thinking of that excellent Russian word, "maskirovka" - the art of military deception.

I think the Russians are having a whale of a time with this, and I wouldn't be surprised if a big part of it is all about making the British government look like a bunch of powerless, bumbling fools. Which, TBF, they did not need much help with.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

kebabking said:


> that is a _reckless_ act, and if they can be reckless about not caring that it was going to be spread over everything and everyone


As was the Litvinenko killing: Po-210 scattered throughout London hotel rooms, restaurants, and on a commercial civilian aircraft. The potential for a nerve agent to disperse further and take out larger numbers than intended is greater though.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2018)

2hats said:


> As was the Litvinenko killing: Po-210 scattered throughout London hotel rooms, restaurants, and on a commercial civilian aircraft. The potential for a nerve agent to disperse further and take out larger numbers than intended is greater though.


It's a very expressive way of saying "we don't give a shit". Kinda like the Russian equivalent of the French shrug and "bof".


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

as I said, discuss.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 13, 2018)

May should offer Putin outside for a straightener.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

kebabking said:


> i disagree, vehmently.
> 
> i'm not going to climb on my horse for the life of a traitor, treason is a game that has big boys rules, well established big boys rules, and if our friend had answered the door to a pair of 9mm to the head then i'd have been a little unhappy, but meh..
> 
> ...


 

Dont get me wrong - I am not advocating this by any means, just pointing out that we have played the game and now seem flummoxed that our wilful intransigence to do anything about this over the years has led to the UK becoming a haven for dirty Russian money and organised gangsterism.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2018)

Rosemary Jest said:


> Makes sense, but how was the copper affected by it too?



Probably just saw a good excuse for a couple of decades' gardening leave.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 13, 2018)

waited till he had the sniffles, put the nerve agent in his olbas oil. He's rubbed that allover his chest, jobs a goodun


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

this will end well: cops on the tills at salisbury's sainbury's


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

theresa may's not going to do anything:-


Putin smirks when asked if Russia was behind spy poisoning | Daily Mail Online


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 13, 2018)

Rosemary Jest said:


> On a purely practical level, how does a chemical like this get delivered to the victims?...


Just take the 310 bus from Porton Down, simples.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

..


----------



## agricola (Mar 13, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Probably just saw a good excuse for a couple of decades' gardening leave.



Those days are long since past; indeed as an aside the "incredibly proud of our emergency services" Government has just proposed that it should be able to dismiss cops who are medically incapable of further employment as cops but who don't meet the Government's threshold for being medically retired.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2018)

agricola said:


> Those days are long since past; indeed as an aside the "incredibly proud of our emergency services" Government has just proposed that it should be able to dismiss cops who are medically incapable of further employment as cops but who don't meet the Government's threshold for being medically retired.



Well maybe if they weren't so keen on beating up those who protest against austerity then I'd have some sympathy.

Actually no, not even then.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

I dunno, if they can do it to the coppery, then it doesn't bode well for the future of less robustly organised civil servants


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 13, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Dont get me wrong - I am not advocating this by any means, just pointing out that we have played the game and now seem flummoxed that our wilful intransigence to do anything about this over the years has led to the UK becoming a haven for dirty Russian money and organised gangsterism.


They're the wrong target though aren't they? Would Putin give much of a fuck if we kicked out all the oligarchs?


----------



## moochedit (Mar 13, 2018)

Trump has sacked Rex Tillerson just after Rex said Russia was responsible for this. I'm sure the two are not connected


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2018)

Spymaster If they are part of the Russian money-laundering operation, which seems likely then yes. The Chatham house analysis suggests that various financial restrictions are likely to cause the most pain and inconvenience.


----------



## YouSir (Mar 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> They're the wrong target though aren't they? Would Putin give much of a fuck if we kicked out all the oligarchs?



Reckon so, they're not all here to get away from him, no doubt plenty are friends of friends and playing with money that's important to Vlad. Besides, we could freeze all their assets and turn all their properties into social housing - no lose scenario and underground swimming pools for all.


----------



## agricola (Mar 13, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Trump has sacked Rex Tillerson just after Rex said Russia was responsible for this. I'm sure the two are not connected



that video the FSB have must be of him at a mosque celebrating 9/11


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

Yeah, I was gonna say something similar- the out of favour expats are not an issue, the in favour ones are an important link to getting his cash laundered and placed nicely. I would warrant they they are only still oligarch class because he favours them.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

agricola said:


> that video the FSB have must be of him at a mosque celebrating 9/11


 
its from Florida apparently


----------



## kebabking (Mar 13, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Trump has sacked Rex Tillerson just after Rex said Russia was responsible for this. I'm sure the two are not connected



one of the Beeb's US political people was on earlier - he thought it was coincidence, Tillerson has been on Trumps shitlist for over a year, and the timing of getting rid has been about a replacement, or, of course, just Trump having one of his late night brain farts...

he's been replaced by the (now former) head of CIA, a politician rather than a career intelligence officer, but one easily as sympathetic to the UK as Tillerson was, and one who will have seen what the UK has given the US, but also what CIA have developed for themselves. i doubt there'll be any rowing back.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 13, 2018)

your all wrong it as Mi6 operating under Mays direct command to give here a Falklands style victory over Russia awake sheep awake.

now the torys are probably that evil but May isn't really that popular and the spooks are more likely to turn round and go fuck off rather than support some hare-brained scheme like this


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

I may not be 100% on this, but the last time I looked, there was not a sanctions directive against Russia per se issued by the UK Treasury - some individuals / PEPS who are russian, but we don't have a standalone policy on Russia outside any already agreed position. Plenty against Belarus/ Ukraine/ Iran whateves, but nothing overarching on Russia. be interesting to see if this changes.


----------



## agricola (Mar 13, 2018)

kebabking said:


> one of the Beeb's US political people was on earlier - he thought it was coincidence, Tillerson has been on Trumps shitlist for over a year, and the timing of getting rid has been about a replacement, or, of course, just Trump having one of his late night brain farts...
> 
> he's been replaced by the (now former) head of CIA, a politician rather than a career intelligence officer, but one easily as sympathetic to the UK as Tillerson was, and one who will have seen what the UK has given the US, but also what CIA have developed for themselves. i doubt there'll be any rowing back.



I am not sure how true that is, though the "its a coincidence" theory will be the one the Government wants to push given that they will look complete fools otherwise.  Certainly one could easily make an argument that Tillerson's backing to the UK Government may have been made without his bosses support, or even knowledge, and so when Boris et al boasted of it today Trump was bounced into his usual daftness.


----------



## elbows (Mar 13, 2018)

There were already plenty of signs that Tillerson was being cut adrift so I'm not big on making a connection to the UK Russia stuff.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

Rosemary Jest said:


> Does the nerve agent have an instant effect? Sorry for my ignorance, just interested to know.


Just to add further: Sky News interviewed Mirzayanov, one of the developers of novichok, now in the US. He underlined the rapid effect and potential to persist in the environment (though one thing going for the British climate is it will tend to wash away and hydrolyse the agent more quickly than the stony Uzbek desert where it was originally tested). He mentioned that symptoms of those exposed even to trace amounts might appear over years and those exposed to any ‘significant’ dose would, if they survived, be “invalids” requiring medical assistance for (what is left of) their life. He seems to be of the opinion it would have been delivered as a spray.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 13, 2018)

Another dead russian turned up.

Russian exile Nikolai Glushkov found dead at his London home


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 13, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Another dead russian turned up.
> 
> Russian exile Nikolai Glushkov found dead at his London home



Mate of that one who hanged himself, such a case of suicide the coroner recorded an open verdict...


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 13, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Another dead russian turned up.
> 
> Russian exile Nikolai Glushkov found dead at his London home


The mask of the red death:


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Another dead russian turned up.
> 
> Russian exile Nikolai Glushkov found dead at his London home


Met Police have launched an investigation led by the counter terrorism command.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

Might want to keep your distance from any UK based Russians for the next few days, nothing personal, just in case like


----------



## YouSir (Mar 13, 2018)

Wonder what 'our' Spooks are up thinking about all this. No one expects May to do anything but they're not short on their own history of bastardry, bet a few are rubbing their hands together with glee at the prospect of being able to grab their poison tipped umbrellas and James Bond watches. Or whatever it is they have, really sharp Oyster Cards maybe.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 13, 2018)

I also think the Tillerson thing is a coincidence but it yet another in a long line of embarrassments for May and her government.  Its pretty much every time they sy or do anything it blows up in their faces.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Another dead russian turned up.
> 
> Russian exile Nikolai Glushkov found dead at his London home


Some sources (apparently via his daughter and friends) are claiming he was found with strangulation marks around his neck.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

week of the long knives it is


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 13, 2018)

YouSir said:


> Wonder what 'our' Spooks are up thinking about all this. No one expects May to do anything but they're not short on their own history of bastardry, bet a few are rubbing their hands together with glee at the prospect of being able to grab their poison tipped umbrellas and James Bond watches. Or whatever it is they have, really sharp Oyster Cards maybe.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 13, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I also think the Tillerson thing is a coincidence but it yet another in a long line of embarrassments for May and her government.  Its pretty much every time they sy or do anything it blows up in their faces.



Yeah. it's well funny


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2018)

I suppose people may have noticed Cobyn being slated for questioning oligarch donations  to the vermin, by people who style themselves 'centrists'. Full of shit does not even begin to cover it.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 13, 2018)

Putin's having a laugh, a bloody good laugh at our expense.


----------



## agricola (Mar 13, 2018)

teqniq said:


> I suppose people may have noticed Cobyn being slated for questioning oligarch donations  to the vermin, by people who style themselves 'centrists'. Full of shit does not even begin to cover it.



They've got their finger on the pulse as how to respond - senior FA administrators shouldn't go to the World Cup, but they haven't decided whether the England team should.


----------



## moochedit (Mar 13, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> Another dead russian turned up.
> 
> Russian exile Nikolai Glushkov found dead at his London home


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

England should gift their WC place to Scotland. The poisoned chalice.


----------



## moochedit (Mar 13, 2018)

Maybe i should emigrate to new zealand.
How fast are those new missles again?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 13, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Maybe i should emigrate to new zealand.
> How fast are those new missles again?


"I'm feeling hypersonic, give me gin and tonic"


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

moochedit said:


> Maybe i should emigrate to new zealand.


You might want to reconsider that plan…


> Russian spy claims he was poisoned just like Sergei Skripal as Vladimir Putin wants him dead.
> 
> Defector Boris Karpichkov says he became a 'walking corpse' after what he claims was poisoning and is on a hit list of eight defectors targeted by the Russian leader.  The ex-KGB major claims he suffered the first of two chemical attacks in November 2006 – the week defector Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned in London by polonium in a cup of tea.
> 
> ...


Source: Sunday Mirror, 11 March 2018

What are the chances Skripal is a smoker?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 13, 2018)

2hats said:


> You might want to reconsider that plan…
> 
> Source: Sunday Mirror, 11 March 2018
> 
> What are the chances Skripal is a smoker?


So they’re whacking this stuff in fags so the target can blow nerve gas smoke all over the place? Surely they wouldn’t be that fucking stupid???


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So they’re whacking this stuff in fags so the target can blow nerve gas smoke all over the place? Surely they wouldn’t be that fucking stupid???


I suspect the exhale would be nowhere near as strong as the inhale...


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 13, 2018)

2hats said:


> I suspect the exhale would be nowhere near as strong as the inhale...


I don’t doubt that but the prospect of someone walking down the high street whilst puffing away on nerve juice has to be a trifle concerning, no?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I don’t doubt that but the prospect of someone walking down the high street whilst puffing away on nerve juice has to be a trifle concerning, no?


Puffing? There won’t be a second puff.


----------



## agricola (Mar 13, 2018)

elbows said:


> There were already plenty of signs that Tillerson was being cut adrift so I'm not big on making a connection to the UK Russia stuff.



Perhaps, though there are some interesting points raised here in disagreement:



> Within the hour, the State Department issued a statement insisting that Tillerson “had every intention of remaining” and “did not speak to the President this morning and is unaware of the reason.” CNN reported that Tillerson had received a call from White House Chief of Staff John Kelly on Friday night indicating that he would be replaced that did not specify timing; a senior White House official told the network that it was Trump himself who had suddenly decided to pull the trigger on Tuesday morning. Tillerson learned of his actual firing the same way everybody else did: By reading about it on Twitter shortly after 8:44 a.m. Eastern Time on Tuesday, March 13.
> 
> A lot turns on that timing. On March 12, Tillerson had backed the British government’s accusation that Russia was culpable for a nerve-agent attack on United Kingdom soil. If Tillerson had been fired March 9, then his words of support for Britain could not explain his firing three days before. But if the White House was lying about the timing, it could be lying about the motive.
> 
> ...


----------



## elbows (Mar 13, 2018)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though there are some interesting points raised here in disagreement:



I didnt find most of those points that interesting, and that was before I realised the article was written by David Frum.

One of the reasons I dont find it terribly compelling is that when it comes to the timing, stuff has clearly been going on with Tillerson for some days in the buildup to his firing. (eg 'taken ill' and cancelling stuff whilst on Africa tour).

I'm not saying there is nothing to it, but these days its rather easy to churn out stuff about Trump and Russia in a manner that has more to do with existing perceptions about Trump and Russia and less to do with any meaty factoid revelations that could actually have consequences. And when dealing with someone as shit at diplomacy as Trump, I'm not sure I will be interpreting his public utterances with the assumption that he is always quite clear what he is doing in terms of diplomatic language and sending messages with the right tone and volume for the international audience through such channels.


----------



## tim (Mar 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I thought that had been disproved?


That does not mean that you can't make political mileage out of it.


----------



## tim (Mar 13, 2018)

kebabking said:


> i disagree, vehmently.
> 
> i'm not going to climb on my horse for the life of a traitor, treason is a game that has big boys rules, well established big boys rules, and if our friend had answered the door to a pair of 9mm to the head then i'd have been a little unhappy, but meh..
> 
> ...



If it's so dangerous why hasn't it killed anyone yet? It does not seem likely that vast numbers of people were ever  at risk


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So they’re whacking this stuff in fags so the target can blow nerve gas smoke all over the place? Surely they wouldn’t be that fucking stupid???


They would care?  Why?


----------



## elbows (Mar 13, 2018)

CRI said:


> They would care?  Why?



Regardless of whether they would 'care', they would at least factor such things into any calculation as to whether to proceed with a particular operation. If there is a fair chance of the operation causing quite a large number of casualties, they would have to factor in a different level of expected condemnation and response by the 'victim nation'. There are also other reasons why quite narrowly targeted methods of assassination and killing are often favoured over death painted with a much broader brush. And yes, there are times where these calculations still result in the sloppy and broad methods getting the go ahead, although its sort of relatively rare in this context. Far more common when we are talking about things like death from above, with such delightful terms such as collateral damage having being coined and used to the point of near numbness.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2018)

elbows said:


> Regardless of whether they would 'care', they would at least factor such things into any calculation as to whether to proceed with a particular operation. If there is a fair chance of the operation causing quite a large number of casualties, they would have to factor in a different level of expected condemnation and response by the 'victim nation'. There are also other reasons why quite narrowly targeted methods of assassination and killing are often favoured over death painted with a much broader brush. And yes, there are times where these calculations still result in the sloppy and broad methods getting the go ahead, although its sort of relatively rare in this context. Far more common when we are talking about things like death from above, with such delightful terms such as collateral damage having being coined and used to the point of near numbness.



That's only the case if the goal is just to take out the target.  Get in, do it quickly, cleanly, discreetly, make it look like an accident or suicide even.  

This guy could have been topped a dozen different ways but no, they left an obvious calling card - a chemical that leads straight back to Russian government controlled labs.

So, it's likely this was meant to send a bigger message, and "collateral damage" if anything helps strengthen that message, in a "look what we can do under your noses and you can do fuck all about it," kind of way.


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2018)

tim said:


> If it's so dangerous why hasn't it killed anyone yet? It does not seem likely that vast numbers of people were ever  at risk


Last I heard, the intended victim and his daughter who (presumably) was not the intended victim are both still in critical condition, in induced comas in hospital, and the cop who attended them is still very ill with serious, permanent organ damage, but that's no shakes because they ain't dead?  Other people in the area also reporting symptoms, but still, no biggie?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2018)

Corbyn understands foreign policy – he proved it yesterday with Russia and he's proven it in the past


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Corbyn understands foreign policy – he proved it yesterday with Russia and he's proven it in the past



that sorta sums up the background  as i take it- for the indy anyway -  i hopemovement on the treasury sanctions list as an absolute minimum now( lolz) . There are very few *russians* on the list, more southern republics biznessmen from the 'stans generally. There has been a tightly monitored very light touch on the classic oligarch circle as to all UKG intents and purposes, they are_ straight_. Obviously its not hard to see what is really going on- whether we show the mettle to actually take these rapacious thieving shitbags to task will be interesting.Obvs Indy owner Lebdev is not in putins inner circle of olgrc chums any longer


----------



## tim (Mar 13, 2018)

CRI said:


> Last I heard, the intended victim and his daughter who (presumably) was not the intended victim are both still in critical condition, in induced comas in hospital, and the cop who attended them is still very ill with serious, permanent organ damage, but that's no shakes because they ain't dead?  Other people in the area also reporting symptoms, but still, no biggie?




It's really not of the level of a biggie that has kebabking was iffing himself into a frenzy about with his scenarios of thousands of casualties


----------



## CRI (Mar 13, 2018)

tim said:


> It's really not of the level of a biggie that has kebabking was iffing himself into a frenzy about with his scenarios of thousands of casualties


No, not thousands, but it could have been and still could be in future.  

I think the issue is also that the emergency services weren't expecting this to happen in sleepy Salisbury, treated the two as though they were drugged up and only much later realised dozens, perhaps hundreds of people could have been exposed to the chemical.  The advice, many hours after the event, to "wash all your clothes and possessions if you were in the area" wouldn't do much to reassure me if I was in the vicinity, especially if I was feeling ill.  Bit like the aluminium in the water at Camelford or the lead in the water in Flint, some of the effects might not draw attention immediately, but the damage is already done and probably irreversible.  Have you read anything about how nerve agents work?  It would only take a small goof up in the right place and yep, could be thousands affected.  I'd really rather that not happen.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

TBF, kebabking post was a response to a sloppily presented provocative post by me.I am sure he has far far more knowledge of the issues than i will ever have.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 13, 2018)

CRI said:


> I think the issue is also that the emergency services weren't expecting this to happen in sleepy Salisbury


I wouldn’t necessarily assume that.


> treated the two as though they were drugged up and only much later realised dozens, perhaps hundreds of people could have been exposed to the chemical.


I’m not so sure. How about: they perhaps realised what was going on and treated them relatively quickly otherwise they’d more likely be bagged as biohazards by now, and they didn’t know how the public might react and didn’t want to create panic. There might be a reason local A&E staff might be trained to recognise such symptoms and have ready access to exactly the right antidote and therapeutic drugs.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 13, 2018)

CRI said:


> I think the issue is also that the emergency services weren't expecting this to happen in sleepy Salisbury



The A&E dept at Salisbury is likely one of the most prepared ones for this kind of thing. At the very least, they'll have a very useful phone number to call when presented with weird neurological symptoms.


----------



## tim (Mar 14, 2018)

CRI said:


> No, not thousands, but it could have been and still could be in future.
> 
> I think the issue is also that the emergency services weren't expecting this to happen in sleepy Salisbury, treated the two as though they were drugged up and only much later realised dozens, perhaps hundreds of people could have been exposed to the chemical.  The advice, many hours after the event, to "wash all your clothes and possessions if you were in the area" wouldn't do much to reassure me if I was in the vicinity, especially if I was feeling ill.  Bit like the aluminium in the water at Camelford or the lead in the water in Flint, some of the effects might not draw attention immediately, but the damage is already done and probably irreversible.  Have you read anything about how nerve agents work?  It would only take a small goof up in the right place and yep, could be thousands affected.  I'd really rather that not happen.



"Could have been" and "Could be" are rhe scare mongering cliches of cheap journalism and insecure politicians. "Salisbury" is of course another absurd cliché. It is the main base of the British Army. If the police aren't ready to deal with an emergency there, they are unlikely to do better anywhere else in the country.


----------



## elbows (Mar 14, 2018)

The 'could have been thousands, Russia doesnt care' line is also silly because any form of foreign state action that lead to the sudden and horrible death of thousands of people is far more likely to be treated the same as any kind of military attack on the civilian population that results in mass casualties. And that sort of stuff is reserved for a level of conflict between nations that is not exactly close to where the UK and Russia are at today. There is no great doubt these days as to how far Russia will go when it comes to territory it considers to be within its sphere of influence (Ukraine) or keeping a useful regime in power (Syria). But we know the sorts of things Russia does when playing games with the UK, and we can even sensibly imagine how things could worsen in future, but resorting so freely to the rhetorical atrocity multiplier is an unproductive waste of credibility.

Those who latch eagerly onto mental images of 'Putin laughing at us' about this sort of thing, might want to consider whether some of their own reactions provide additional comic fodder. I do not suggest ignoring the threat or even downplaying it, although on occasions there may be something to be said for 'no selling a move'. And I wait with interest to see what kind of response the government cobbles together.


----------



## CRI (Mar 14, 2018)

Bizarro responses here, but okay.  Maybe next time it will happen to the guy next to you in the pub, so good luck.


----------



## elbows (Mar 14, 2018)

There is nothing bizarre about wanting to preserve some degree of accuracy regarding the scale of things. And some sense of risk, which in this case means that yes, I am going to waste zero seconds of my life worrying that I could get caught up in this sort of thing. That doesnt make me disinterested in this case or happy to offer Russia any sort of free pass.


----------



## tim (Mar 14, 2018)

CRI said:


> Bizarro responses here, but okay.  Maybe next time it will happen to the guy next to you in the pub, so good luck.


Almost certainly it won't,  thought. I'm much more at risk from the grab rails of the DLR smeared,  as they are, with perfectly natural but potentially lethal lurgie, or an exotic dose of the flu contracted from a friendly but over tactile student, a farewell hug from Aleksandra from Sakhalin, perhaps.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

CRI said:


> Bizarro responses here, but okay.  Maybe next time it will happen to the guy next to you in the pub, so good luck.


There’s at least one** very good reason the medical authorities in that area might be well versed in what to do when confronted by the symptoms of such an incident. I don’t spend any time worrying about expiring in a road accident, which is vastly more probable, so why worry about the infinitesimally unlikely?

** Hint:


----------



## LDC (Mar 14, 2018)

I am interested in the machinations and thinking behind this...

As others have said, why use a nerve agent that can be traced so easily and obviously to Russia? And with all the attendant risks to others? And knowing that when it's traced the UK is going to have to respond in some way. Also was the hit itself a fuck up on the day, and if so why - was the delivery botched? And where are the team, out of the country I suspect, but I imagine there's a fairly frantic search going on for them?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I imagine there's a fairly frantic search going on for them?


Perhaps none at all, because it’s hard to trace the untraceable, those at the top of their chosen craft. Or, they already know who they are and that they are already out of reach.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 14, 2018)

getting the fuck out of dodge is fairly easy if you can hop on Eurostar fairly hard if the plan is yomp across the plain and head for the coast to be picked up by sub


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I am interested in the machinations and thinking behind this...
> 
> As others have said, why use a nerve agent that can be traced so easily and obviously to Russia? And with all the attendant risks to others? And knowing that when it's traced the UK is going to have to respond in some way.


Just like the way the UK responded to Litvinenko’s killing, where the assassins kindly left a clear radioactive trail all the way back home. A trail composed of a rare element that could be precisely matched to the facility that produced it?


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 14, 2018)

2hats said:


> Just like the way the UK responded to Litvinenko’s killing, where the assassins kindly left a clear radioactive trail all the way back home. A trail composed of a rare element that could be precisely matched to the facility that produced it?


Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes.


----------



## tim (Mar 14, 2018)

likesfish said:


> getting the fuck out of dodge is fairly easy if you can hop on Eurostar fairly hard if the plan is yomp across the plain and head for the coast to be picked up by sub



But on an alternative equally Bondian scenario you could be back in your lab at Porton in a quarter of an hour


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 14, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I am interested in the machinations and thinking behind this...
> 
> As others have said, why use a nerve agent that can be traced so easily and obviously to Russia? <snip>



Even May couldn't say the Russians made this nerve agent; the best she could manage was the Russians developed it.

Seems unlikely to me that this has been much of a secret for all of the intervening fifty years; if we can ID it, we can surely make it. And if we can make it, undoubtedly others can too.

I'm still looking for a plausible motive. Looking tough for the electorate at home smells wrong if it is true that we can retaliate in meaningful ways. I don't think this is a miscalculation that Putin & co would make. If Anyone-but-Russia wanted to damage Russia though, they found a great way to do it.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Seems unlikely to me that this has been much of a secret for all of the intervening fifty years; if we can ID it, we can surely make it. And if we can make it, undoubtedly others can too.


It’s been an open ‘secret’ for years. Probably synthesised in a handful of research labs at analytical quantities but AFAIK only the Russians have stockpiled it and the only ones (publicly recorded) to have previously observed its effects on humans. But, again, creating test samples is a long way from weaponising it, testing it thoroughly and understanding it, let alone delivering it as a targeted hit. I’ll bet that there are not many outfits in the world competent enough to do that, get away with that.


> I'm still looking for a plausible motive. Looking tough for the electorate at home smells wrong if it is true that we can retaliate in meaningful ways. I don't think this is a miscalculation that Putin & co would make. If Anyone-but-Russia wanted to damage Russia though, they found a great way to do it.


Fill your boots. It would appear to be a win-win for him; HMG can’t retaliate in any meaningful way. Do you think they'll have the spine to reject dirty Russian money that they and the city/establishment have been happy to court and lap up?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Even May couldn't say the Russians made this nerve agent; the best she could manage was the Russians developed it.
> 
> Seems unlikely to me that this has been much of a secret for all of the intervening fifty years; if we can ID it, we can surely make it. And if we can make it, undoubtedly others can too.
> 
> I'm still looking for a plausible motive. Looking tough for the electorate at home smells wrong if it is true that we can retaliate in meaningful ways. I don't think this is a miscalculation that Putin & co would make. If Anyone-but-Russia wanted to damage Russia though, they found a great way to do it.



I would have thought the motive was fairly obvious - if you think as do I that it was the Russians. Read the Chatham House analysis I posted, they think the UK is weak, quite possibly not without due cause and they want to send a message both as a warning to exiles/opponents that they will never be safe anywhere and to the UK government, something along the lines of 'what are you going to do about this?'


----------



## maomao (Mar 14, 2018)

May's fucking mugged herself off giving Putin an ultimatum on this. There is no way to proceed without looking like an even more useless cunt than she did at the start of it all.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 14, 2018)

I just heard (on the radio) that The move to freeze assets of Russian oligarchs would be welcomed by Russia as they want them and their money back in Russia.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

Badgers said:


> I just heard (on the radio) that The move to freeze assets of Russian oligarchs would be welcomed by Russia as they want them and their money back in Russia.


This is covered in the Guardian article above.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 14, 2018)

2hats said:


> This is covered in the Guardian article above.


Cheers


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 14, 2018)

And now the Russians have gone too far.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 14, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> And now the Russians have gone too far.


So war then?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 14, 2018)

Badgers said:


> So war then?


they put one of ours in the morgue, we put one of thiers in the.....er...worse than morgue


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> they put one of ours in the morgue, we put one of thiers in the.....er...worse than morgue


They put one of ours in a sports bag and fifteen of theirs in the morgue...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

I can imagine the conversations in the kremlin - We need a PR stunt to assure my victory in the upcoming election. maybe topping some foreign based defector or expat we don't need, big stylee, use some nerve gas or some shit. make it messy and shizzle

In Germany - No - merkel is a hard hitter and will kick off.
France - Nopes, Macron is ambitious and will play this to his advantage.
USA-like  lol, we have that covered already bro'
Belgium - who the fuck wants to live in Belgium.
UK ? - May is proper rubbish and even her dog hates her.

UK it is then


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 14, 2018)

> Russia’s ambassador to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, *Alexander Shulgin*



eh?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> eh?


Yeah, that really is the name of the Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the OPCW.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

the ultimate chemical weapon...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Discreet calls have been made to see how much support there is for a move to exclude Russian banks and financials from the swift payment system. I gather support has been far less than lukewarm and the Bank of England is holding its head in its hands as we speak. Cash is king as they say.
> 
> Its been done with Iran and NK but Russia is a rather different fish


 
May Plots to Punish Russia as Crisis Over Poisoned Spy Deepens

_"In the category of responses the prime minister can speak about publicly, there’s little the U.K. can do alone. Russia expects diplomatic expulsions, but pan-national sanctions would involve months of lengthy negotiations with other countries. __More drastic measures__ such as cutting Russian banks off from SWIFT, a global messaging system that facilitates the transfer of payments between thousands of banks, are unlikely, one person close to the Kremlin said.
Britain hasn’t been in touch with SWIFT and, in any case, the organization wouldn’t disconnect banks unless EU members decided unanimously to impose sanctions and directed financial messaging providers to isolate a national banking network, as happened with Iran in 2012"_

Computer says no


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 14, 2018)

elbows said:


> mental images of 'Putin laughing at us' about this sort of thing, might want to consider whether some of their own reactions provide additional comic fodder.


'lots of 'we' and 'us' flying about suddenly eh. 

Personally I was mulling it over last night as to wether I should feel guilty about enjoying this all. I mean, all of the people involved are terrible people so I think its ok


----------



## IC3D (Mar 14, 2018)

Assassination drones called Maybots could crush our enemy's in the Kremlin and be useful clout in brexit negotiations


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> 'lots of 'we' and 'us' flying about suddenly eh.
> 
> Personally I was mulling it over last night as to wether I should feel guilty about enjoying this all. I mean, all of the people involved are terrible people so I think its ok


 
This is my quandary also DC

ETA - not daughter collateral obvs as per posts below


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 14, 2018)

including the daughter?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

Well on the face of it his daughter would appear blameless and if she survives may be invalided for the rest of her life.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 14, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> 'lots of 'we' and 'us' flying about suddenly eh.
> 
> Personally I was mulling it over last night as to wether I should feel guilty about enjoying this all. I mean, all of the people involved are terrible people so I think its ok



Does that include the staff at the coffee house our friends gave their contaminated notes and change to, or the person who sat in the seats they vacated, or the off duty Doctor who went to help them in the street and who - almost certainly - got their contaminated vommit on her clothes and skin?

Does it include the minimum wage ancillary staff at the hospital who have been dealing with their contaminated clothes, sheets, medical waste?

You have a very fine brain - it makes me weep to sometimes see the rubbish you say without engaging it.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 14, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> they put one of ours in the morgue, we put one of thiers in the.....er...worse than morgue


 hull's nice at this time of year


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

Oh and the copper. I know it's line of duty stuff but I bet he never expected to be poisoned with a nerve agent during the course of his job


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 14, 2018)

all right, apart from all the innocent people I hadn't thought of then.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

hmmmmmmm. they do have a point


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 14, 2018)

Seems to me that you need to have a certain set of beliefs about Russia and Putin for this to make sense.

I'll just throw this in too; Russia is certified as having destroyed their chemical weapons capabilities The UK government is manufacturing its nerve agent case for ‘action’ on Russia

It was notable how little appetite the British had for having a go at Russia when NATO generals were on TV trying to terrify us with Russian troop movements during the western backed crisis in Ukraine. Perhaps this will stiffen our resolve.


----------



## YouSir (Mar 14, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Seems to me that you need to have a certain set of beliefs about Russia and Putin for this to make sense.
> 
> I'll just throw this in too; Russia is certified as having destroyed their chemical weapons capabilities The UK government is manufacturing its nerve agent case for ‘action’ on Russia
> 
> It was notable how little appetite the British had for having a go at Russia when NATO generals were on TV trying to terrify us with Russian troop movements during the western backed crisis in Ukraine. Perhaps this will stiffen our resolve.



What action are they supposed to be propagandising for? The US has no interest, the EU is hardly likely to follow the UK's lead and May will do shit all by herself. I've seen people saying that this is all Iraq style buildup to give the state a free hand, but to do what? Granted, the old Red Menace stuff might be useful domestically to make up a national security line to stand on, but who's going to rig something like this to bolster May?


----------



## elbows (Mar 14, 2018)

YouSir said:


> What action are they supposed to be propagandising for? The US has no interest, the EU is hardly likely to follow the UK's lead and May will do shit all by herself. I've seen people saying that this is all Iraq style buildup to give the state a free hand, but to do what? Granted, the old Red Menace stuff might be useful domestically to make up a national security line to stand on, but who's going to rig something like this to bolster May?



I guess time will tell, has anyone combined this sort of thinking with fears about a plot to derail Brexit yet?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

Craig Murray, Snowden , Israel, Porton down and false flags - If this was a scripted into a movie , it would star Lewis Collins


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 14, 2018)

YouSir said:


> What action are they supposed to be propagandising for? The US has no interest, the EU is hardly likely to follow the UK's lead and May will do shit all by herself. I've seen people saying that this is all Iraq style buildup to give the state a free hand, but to do what? Granted, the old Red Menace stuff might be useful domestically to make up a national security line to stand on, but who's going to rig something like this to bolster May?



I don't know is the short answer; wait and see what happens, wait and see who benefits from the damage (if any) to Russia's reputation. Wait and see what happens here to protect us from the baddies.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I'll just throw this in too; Russia is certified as having destroyed their chemical weapons capabilities


Chemical *weapons*, yes, probably, maybe. Capability to produce nerve agents? No.


----------



## YouSir (Mar 14, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I don't know is the short answer; wait and see what happens, wait and see who benefits from the damage (if any) to Russia's reputation. Wait and see what happens here to protect us from the baddies.



Should I ignore the fact that Putin's a giant evil bastard who has form for doing stuff like this while I wait?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

23 diplomats to be expelled - expect Russia to do the same .


----------



## ddraig (Mar 14, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> 23 diplomats to be expelled - expect Russia to do the same .


UK to expel 23 Russian diplomats


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

The freezing state assets is an interesting one to execute given the states holdings in many Russian outfits - need more details on this one - ETA tracking the fuckers will be a nightmare as much of the Russian assets here are owned by offshore anon companies. I think this is less threatening that It seems in reality.

Until details emerge, this could be rather a toothless ploy.


----------



## LDC (Mar 14, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I don't know is the short answer; wait and see what happens, wait and see who benefits from the damage (if any) to Russia's reputation. Wait and see what happens here to protect us from the baddies.



Come on, you know you want to say it.... fffffalse fffflag.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 14, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Come on, you know you want to say it.... fffffalse fffflag.



i think we all know who will benefit - _international finance._ you know, big noses, blokes called Mordecai and woman called Rachel. they own the world you know - and they're lizards...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

Pretty low of may to call Corbyn on his lack of consensus ( patriotism obvs)  during this so called debate. shitty tactic from someone bereft of ideas


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

May statement on Russian spy case

"Conservative chairman of the Commons defence committee, Julian Lewis, said the Russians would have responded to the PM's deadline following the Salisbury attack if they were innocent"

Without getting into a whataboutery yeahbuttery death spiral - where is the intelligence in making a statement like this ?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Pretty low of may to call Corbyn on his lack of consensus ( patriotism obvs)  during this so called debate. shitty tactic from someone bereft of ideas



I bet Corbyn's contact at the Czech embassy warned him about it. Was Corbyn anywhere near Wiltshire on the day? Nope! Forewarned.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Pretty low of may to call Corbyn on his lack of consensus ( patriotism obvs)  during this so called debate. shitty tactic from someone bereft of ideas


When have you not known the vermin to use shitty tactics? Trouble is there's also plenty on his own backbenches bleating about the same thing the subtext being they want him gone.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

He was nowhere near KL airport last year either. I see  a pattern emerging


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> When have you not known the vermin to use shitty tactics? Trouble is there's also plenty on his own backbenches bleating about the same thing the subtext being they want him gone.


 
Yeps - Cooper has had a dig as well it seems


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Trouble is there's also plenty on his own backbenches bleating about the same thing the subtext being they want him gone.



Quite bizarre of them, seeing as this whole case is a demonstration of what happens to traitorous scumbags...there'll be purges once Corbs hits #10, purges


----------



## YouSir (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> When have you not known the vermin to use shitty tactics? Trouble is there's also plenty on his own backbenches bleating about the same thing the subtext being they want him gone.



That's been going on since he first stood though, law of diminishing returns really - inside the part at least people either believe it blindly, because they always have and also want him gone, or just roll their eyes. Outside of it I'm not sure anyone gives a fuck beyond Tory rags and MPs.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Yeps - Cooper has had a dig as well it seems



She and her gormless husband can be in the very first batch to have a little taste of The Terror.


----------



## isvicthere? (Mar 14, 2018)

Haven't read whole thread, so apologies if this is a repeat, but it seems to me, Putin is playing simple divide-and-rule. He knows Britain is weak because of brexit; he pulls a blatant stunt like this leaving Britain needing allies, when it's just told the biggest economic bloc in history piss off, we don't need you. Ball's in your court, Mrs. May, just when you thought there was already enough poo in your in-tray.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 14, 2018)

ddraig said:


> UK to expel 23 Russian diplomats


Good news. I miss the cold war days


----------



## nuffsaid (Mar 14, 2018)

No Royal Family attendance at the World Cup - Wills will be gutted. He'll probably go in a wig and stay low.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

Badgers said:


> Good news. I miss the cold war days


yes and so does the military-industrial complex! Now that ISIS seems finished where can we turn for a bogeyman?


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

The UK government is manufacturing its nerve agent case for ‘action’ on Russia


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

they don't give a shit about football really. Polo and quiddich is whatnthey enjoy


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> The UK government is manufacturing its nerve agent case for ‘action’ on Russia


 
Already posted up - have you actually read it ?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 14, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Quite bizarre of them, seeing as this whole case is a demonstration of what happens to traitorous scumbags...there'll be purges once Corbs hits #10, purges


A smear of homemade rhubarb jam on a door handle, another Blairite down.


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 14, 2018)

Badgers said:


> I just heard (on the radio) that The move to freeze assets of Russian oligarchs would be welcomed by Russia as they want them and their money back in Russia.



Not sure they would. If their assets are frozen in the UK they can't be moved.

In any case those who oppose Putin politically are very unlikely to go back to Russia, with or without their money, as they'll be in more danger there than here.

Those who are allied to Putin have nothing to fear so are likely to stay here with their money.

Not sure about the intentions of the Russian mafiosi and their money though.


----------



## andysays (Mar 14, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Come on, you know you want to say it.... fffffalse fffflag.


And as if by magic, squirrelp appeared...


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

I would like to congratulate Liz Saville Roberts, of Plaid, for what was by far the best question this afternoon:



> Plaid Cymru’s* Liz Saville Roberts *asks if the UK is still exporting nuclear material to Russia.
> 
> May says today she has been talking about chemical weapons.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Mar 14, 2018)

Pathetic and pointless move from May but I assume there's people around her who can see what Putin's up to here. Upcoming presidental election - he looks strong to the electorate - invokes siege mentality, appeals to nationalists etc etc. Plus ca change. You can see it on his nasty smug little face.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

Does anyone know if we have actually referred this to the OPCW?  I seem to remember some waffle before the speech about allowing them to check our findings, but she didn't mention it in the bit of her speech I saw and she didn't respond to Corbyn's question about it.


----------



## newbie (Mar 14, 2018)

depends if you understand the exact difference between 'notified' and 'referred'.




			
				May said:
			
		

> We have also notified the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons about Russia’s use of this nerve agent. And we are working with the police to enable the OPCW to independently verify our analysis.


PM Commons Statement on Salisbury incident response: 14 March 2018 - GOV.UK


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

newbie said:


> depends if you understand the exact difference between 'notified' and 'referred'.
> 
> PM Commons Statement on Salisbury incident response: 14 March 2018 - GOV.UK



No doubt much midnight oil was burnt coming up with that exact wording.  If they haven't it is shameful though, the CWC has some quite strong provisions attached to it and to not use it in a case like this would cause it severe damage (especially as the OPCW only certified that Russia had destroyed all its stocks in September 2017).


----------



## moochedit (Mar 14, 2018)

I just read May is going to the UN about Russia? I know she is stupid but surely that's a massive own goal? Russia will just swat it away with a veto. China would most likely veto it as well. I wouldn't even be confident these days that the USA and France would support it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

May must have cursed them for not doing this last year.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

moochedit said:


> I just read May is going to the UN about Russia? I know she is stupid but surely that's a massive own goal? Russia will just swat it away with a veto. China would most likely veto it as well. I wouldn't even be confident these days that the USA and France would support it.



I would imagine that is the point, to make some stand in (edit) order to appear that she has done something about it.


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 14, 2018)

23 expelled is the biggest news. what a lame response. 

this wont deter the russians.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

donkyboy said:


> 23 expelled is the biggest news. what a lame response.
> 
> this wont deter the russians.



23 expelled is the extent of the response - apart from that new power she will give the Border Agency to detain people suspected of hostile state activity when they try to get into the country (which in and of itself is an interesting thing for a former Home Secretary to admit we do not already do).


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

'Modest' I surmise the writer is being charitable here.

May's modest response to Skripal attack will not deter Russia | Luke Harding


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> 'Modest' I surmise the writer is being charitable here.
> 
> May's modest response to Skripal attack will not deter Russia | Luke Harding



Just what I said above


----------



## Supine (Mar 14, 2018)

Hmm

The Novichok Story Is Indeed Another Iraqi WMD Scam - Craig Murray


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

How would russian billionaires having to fuck off to toronto or somewhere stop the larger geo-political plans putin and parts of the russian state have?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

Supine said:


> Hmm
> 
> The Novichok Story Is Indeed Another Iraqi WMD Scam - Craig Murray


Pair of jokers


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 14, 2018)

Craig Murray again; ah, too slow* -
*
I don't think it hurts to be suspicious about what the government tells us - it's not as though the establishment doesn't have form.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

I saw Murray mentioned earlier so I thought I'd go have a look at what he's up to, as I haven't been there for ages. Nothing good it turns out. I stopped reading that article when he got to praising the Russians for ridding Syria of Islamic extremists, somehow overlooking the serial war crimes.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> I saw Murray mentioned earlier so I thought I'd go have a look at what he's up to, as I haven't been there for ages. Nothing good it turn out. I stopped reading that article when he got to praising the Russians for ridding Syria of Islamic extremists, somehow overlooking the serial war crimes.


He's been bouyed by, and so consequently, relies on loons for years now - he is happy to provide. Waste of space.


----------



## Supine (Mar 14, 2018)

From his article the first quote said "No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. (Black, 2016)"

*Published* is very different to the UK knowing the structure or the properties of these chemicals. I don't think he can support the claim that they cannot be fingerprinted by the UK authorities.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

newbie said:


> depends if you understand the exact difference between 'notified' and 'referred'.
> 
> 
> PM Commons Statement on Salisbury incident response: 14 March 2018 - GOV.UK



It seems "notified" rather than "referred", at least based on what they have apparently told the Guardian:



> The UK government’s response has been that, while it has the option of taking the case to the OPCW, it is under no obligation to do so.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 14, 2018)

Supine said:


> From his article the first quote said "No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. (Black, 2016)"
> 
> *Published* is very different to the UK knowing the structure or the properties of these chemicals. I don't think he can support the claim that they cannot be fingerprinted by the UK authorities.



open sourcing details of nerve agents what could possibly go wrong with that?
 some things we don't need to know


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

Corbyn’s being a bit of a dick over this. What would be the point of giving the Russians a sample?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Corbyn’s being a bit of a dick over this. What would be the point of giving the Russians a sample?


#1  to drag it out

OPCW consistently rubbished by russia in syria - as a body, not it's findings. Demands to refer to laughable. Corbyn idiot and i think this will cost him.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 14, 2018)

Supine said:


> From his article the first quote said "No independent confirmation of the structures or the properties of such compounds has been published. (Black, 2016)"
> 
> *Published* is very different to the UK knowing the structure or the properties of these chemicals. I don't think he can support the claim that they cannot be fingerprinted by the UK authorities.


Clearly the US knew what it was looking for in the 1990’s when it was invited to Uzbekistan to clean up novichok production and test facilities which would strongly suggest DSTL also have a pretty good idea too. Methinks Mr Murray might be struggling a little to understand why Dr Black might not want to openly discuss knowledge of fourth generation agents.

Within a couple of more paragraphs Mr Murray then proceeds to demonstrate a complete failure of understanding of how gc-ms analysis is carried out. At that point I gave up with the loon spud.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> #1  to drag it out
> 
> OPCW consistently rubbished by russia in syria - as a body, not it's findings. Demands to refer to laughable. Corbyn idiot and i think this will cost him.



None of that is a reason why we wouldn't report this to them.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

agricola said:


> None of that is a reason why we wouldn't report this to them.


It's a response to the _report us then_.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> It's a response to the _report us then_.



Our response is that we are going to show the OPCW our homework though.  

I could understand it if we weren't going to have anything to do with the organization because we thought it was useless, but we are going to tell them that Russia has a chemical weapons programme in defiance of their commitments but not do anything about it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

agricola said:


> Our response is that we are going to show the OPCW our homework though.
> 
> I could understand it if we weren't going to have anything to do with the organization because we thought it was useless, but we are going to tell them that Russia has a chemical weapons programme in defiance of their commitments but not do anything about it.


As you established - we _might. _Our states reaction are still outside. It's only russia dependent this time on the cred of the OPCW.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> As you established - we _might. _Our states reaction are still outside. It's only russia dependent this time on the cred of the OPCW.



That its only "might" at this stage is the worrying thing, its a terrible stance which is giving them cover and all the loons oxygen.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

agricola said:


> That its only "might" at this stage is the worrying thing, its a terrible stance which is giving them cover and all the loons oxygen.


Yes, i agree - i think i confused  your posts with someone elses.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

Supine said:


> Hmm
> 
> The Novichok Story Is Indeed Another Iraqi WMD Scam - Craig Murray


May giving the Russians an ultimatum to 'explain the incident' reminded me of our ultimatum to Saddam Hussein to disarm his WMDs


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

twat


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

Predictable twat


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Corbyn’s being a bit of a dick over this. What would be the point of giving the Russians a sample?


Because whenever you have a dispute with another party it is absolutely best practice, perhaps lawfully necessary, to comply with reasonable requests to enable both parties to investigate, agree on common ground and isolate the dispute.

There are all kinds of reasons why Russia might want to examine a sample, not least to verify that we are actually telling the truth about it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Because whenever you have a dispute with another party it is absolutely best practice, perhaps lawfully necessary, to comply with reasonable requests to enable both parties to investigate, agree on common ground and isolate the dispute.
> 
> There are all kinds of reasons why Russia might want to examine a sample, not least to verify that we are actually telling the truth about it.


So little naive boy.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Predictable twat


I'm not descending to your level of behaviour butchersapron  you have a nice evening.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Because whenever you have a dispute with another party it is absolutely best practice, perhaps lawfully necessary, to comply with reasonable requests to enable both parties to investigate, agree on common ground and isolate the dispute.
> 
> There are all kinds of reasons why Russia might want to examine a sample, not least to verify that we are actually telling the truth about it.


They know they did it, we know they did it, so fuck 'em.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I'm not descending to your level of behaviour butchersapron  you have a nice evening.


You're below it already.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

Thread here on exchanges at the UN




Doctor, my sides.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I'm not descending to your level of behaviour butchersapron  you have a nice evening.


Like a reverse nazi - running towards his own crime


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> They know they did it, we know they did it, so fuck 'em.



And just how do we fuck ‘em?


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> They know they did it, we know they did it, so fuck 'em.


Oh we're back to Iraq again?

No rule of law needed here?  No evidence or confirmation?   Going on the word of a tory?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And just how do we fuck ‘em?


According to the Twitter thread I linked to the Russian ambassador to the UN is suggesting that there's been an uptick in cyber attacks in the Moscow area, now this could easily be distraction as the UK ambassador points out on another matter. The thread's worth a look to anyone interested. Lots of intransigence and bluster and plain rudeness from the Russian ambassador. Be interested in other people's thoughts anyway.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Oh we're back to Iraq again?
> 
> No rule of law needed here?  No evidence or confirmation?   Going on the word of a tory?



I'll take her word over the Russians for fucking sure. 

What evidence would you like to see?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> According to the Twitter thread I linked to the Russian ambassador to the UN is suggesting that there's been an uptick in cyber attacks in the Moscow area, now this could easily be distraction as the UK ambassador points out on another matter. The thread's worth a look to anyone interested. Lots of intransigence and bluster and plain rudeness from the Russian ambassador. Be interested in other people's thoughts anyway.


The wave of russian troll army stuff since 4 has been amazing - literally flooding place after place with


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> According to the Twitter thread I linked to the Russian ambassador to the UN is suggesting that there's been an uptick in cyber attacks in the Moscow area, now this could easily be distraction as the UK ambassador points out on another matter. The thread's worth a look to anyone interested. Lots of intransigence and bluster and plain rudeness from the Russian ambassador. Be interested in other people's thoughts anyway.



The ambassador has made a far better case than May did, but it will rely on him being accurate when he says that the UK has started to go down the OPCW route.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> According to the Twitter thread I linked to the Russian ambassador to the UN is suggesting that there's been an uptick in cyber attacks in the Moscow area, now this could easily be distraction as the UK ambassador points out on another matter. The thread's worth a look to anyone interested. Lots of intransigence and bluster and plain rudeness from the Russian ambassador. Be interested in other people's thoughts anyway.



And what exactly are cyber attacks? Looking at accusations of Trump and EU referendum it seems that firky re-regisistering constitutes a cyber attack.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I'll take her word over the Russians for fucking sure.
> 
> What evidence would you like to see?


 
Similar to what >2million wanted in 2003, like something more than utter bullshit, perhaps?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Oh we're back to Iraq again?
> 
> No rule of law needed here?  No evidence or confirmation?   Going on the word of a tory?


Iraq broke some of the left - afterwards, you no longer had the ability to critically look at anything - whatever happened post 2003 must be bush and the same replayed over and over. It's why you now end up cheering on the death of revolutions in the name of anti-imperialism as the russians fire again and again into civilian areas. Rule of law?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Mar 14, 2018)

The UNSC meeting should pop up on here shortly

United Nations Web TV (@UNWebTV)


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Similar to what >2million wanted in 2003, like something more than utter bullshit, perhaps?


And that would be what?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> And that would be what?



Well, in 2003 we were told categorically that Iraq had WMDs that could hit the UK or its allies/bases in 45 minutes. That was a  deliberate lie to precipitate a war. As a result of that lie well north of a million people were killed. As if happens I think Russia was involved in what happened in Wiltshire last week, but I’m fucked if I will swallow the government’s line on this Machiavellian murk.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I'll take her word over the Russians for fucking sure.
> 
> What evidence would you like to see?



It isn't about her word or theirs, it's about verifiable proof.

I'd like to see evidence from independent analysts.   Seems reasonable.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well, in 2003 we were told categorically that Iraq had WMDs that could hit the UK or its allies/bases in 45 minutes. That was a  deliberate lie to precipitate a war. As a result of that lie well north of a million people were killed. As if happens I think Russia was involved in what happened in Wiltshire last week, but I’m fucked if I will swallow the government’s line on this Machiavellian murk.


So you won't swallow the governments line that Russia did it but you think Russia did it.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2018)

Interesting angle


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> It isn't about her word or theirs, it's about verifiable proof.
> 
> I'd like to see evidence from independent analysts.   Seems reasonable.


What kind of evidence?


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So you won't swallow the governments line that Russia did it, but you think Russia did it.



The problem with their line is not who did it, but what they have done about it.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

agricola said:


> The problem with their line is not who did it, but what they have done about it.


Sure, but there are people who doubt Russian involvement at all.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Sure, but there are people who doubt Russian involvement at all.


You mean because they'e never killed a traded spy before,or killed half the village in the half-arsed execution of them?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> You mean because they'e never killed a traded spy before,or killed half the village in the half-arsed execution of them?


----------



## elbows (Mar 14, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Interesting angle
> 
> View attachment 130039



Yes I find that angle interesting. I havent been in possession of enough facts to build much on it myself, not got anywhere near as far as that guy and I was previously only tempted to mention this sort of thing here in a rather sarcastic manner in response to suggestions that the UK response might involve freezing some Russian assets.

More broadly the UK and the city of Londons role as a kind of grand systemic form of 'Mr Ten Percent' is always of interest, especially since Brexit may change the equation slightly and potentially cause UK PLC to seek even grubbier ways of getting a slice of various pies.


----------



## agricola (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Sure, but there are people who doubt Russian involvement at all.



There are, and I am sure the Government is delighted that some of them think that; it obscures what they are actually doing.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 14, 2018)

russia is hardly making any great effort to argue its innocence is it? Its response has been -"yeah - right  -what ever - fuck off". If it was not them - you'd expect to going to make some sort of effort  wouldn't you?


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

France wants proof before responding on Britain poisoning affair


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


>


It's not their MO to take out bystanders in UK assassinations is it?

It's also probably not their MO to sneak a wmd into a foreign country just to kill one retired, spent spy.   Why take such a huge risk?

It's an incredible situation, I'm certainly not believing any accusations without strong evidence, of any reasonable sort.  Especially not from 'shop an immigrant' May.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 14, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So you won't swallow the governments line that Russia did it but you think Russia did it.



Which Russians and what the fuck are we gonna do about it, is the question.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> It's also probably not their MO to sneak a wmd into a foreign country just to kill one retired, spent spy.   Why take such a huge risk?


Especially in advance of their World Cup hosting which one would expect them to want to pass off without diplomatic incidents.

On the other hand there might well be actors wishing Russia not to benefit from the upcoming goodwill.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Especially in advance of their World Cup hosting which one would expect them to want to pass off without diplomatic incidents.
> 
> On the other hand there might well be actors wishing Russia not to benefit from the upcoming goodwill.


Why don't you go on a conspiracy forum.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Which Russians and what the fuck are we gonna do about it, is the question.


Which Russians do you think did it and what would you like done about it?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> It's not their MO to take out bystanders in UK assassinations is it?
> 
> It's also probably not their MO to sneak a wmd into a foreign country just to kill one retired, spent spy.   Why take such a huge risk?
> 
> It's an incredible situation, I'm certainly not believing any accusations without strong evidence, of any reasonable sort.  Especially not from 'shop an immigrant' May.


I think you're probably a bit of a loon. I hadn't noticed before.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 14, 2018)

If it wasn't the russians - their diplomats would be falling over themselves to convince the UK that it wasn't them. But they are not are they? They are pretty much doing the exact opposite.  And why would the UK government pretend it was the russians? Are we about to invade? 
The russian motive? I guess its a message to russian "traitors" that they are not safe anywhere and its a message to the UK (and other countries) that russia can do what it wants and there is fuck all you can do about it.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 14, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> And why would the UK government pretend it was the russians?


To fuck-up the goodwill they're about to get from hosting the world cup apparently!


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> If it wasn't the russians - their diplomats would be falling over themselves to convince the UK that it wasn't them.


No, if someone makes a false allegation against you, you don't go running around desperate to plead your innocence, dancing to the tune, that would be weak.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 14, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> If it wasn't the russians - their diplomats would be falling over themselves to convince the UK that it wasn't them. But they are not are they?...


That's not how accusations work.

The accusers provide proof.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> No, if someone makes a false allegation against you, you don't go running around desperate to plead your innocence, dancing to the tune, that would be weak.


Is this the method you used to come to the understanding  that the paris, the belgium and american casino attacks were fake?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> That's not how accusations work.
> 
> The accusers provide proof.


What a perverted understanding of  this concept you have.


----------



## Corax (Mar 14, 2018)

I'm kinda wondering if it's the kinda thing the Americans might do in order to catalyse Britain into an anti-Russia stance...

A more informed opinion though, is this

Russian to Judgement - Craig Murray



> From Putin’s point of view, to assassinate Skripal now seems to have very little motivation. If the Russians have waited eight years to do this, they could have waited until after their World Cup. The Russians have never killed a swapped spy before. Just as diplomats, British and otherwise, are the most ardent upholders of the principle of diplomatic immunity, so security service personnel everywhere are the least likely to wish to destroy a system which can be a key aspect of their own personal security; quite literally spy swaps are their “Get Out of Jail Free” card. You don’t undermine that system – probably terminally – without very good reason.
> 
> It is worth noting that the “wicked” Russians gave Skripal a far lighter jail sentence than an American equivalent would have received. If a member of US Military Intelligence had sold, for cash to the Russians, the names of hundreds of US agents and officers operating abroad, the Americans would at the very least jail the person for life, and I strongly suspect would execute them. Skripal just received a jail sentence of 18 years, which is hard to square with the narrative of implacable vindictiveness against him. If the Russians had wanted to make an example, that was the time.
> 
> It is much more probable that the reason for this assassination attempt refers to something recent or current, than to spying twenty years ago. Were I the British police, I would inquire very closely into Orbis Intelligence.





> I am alarmed by the security, spying and armaments industries’ frenetic efforts to stoke Russophobia and heat up the new cold war. I am especially alarmed at the stream of cold war warrior “experts” dominating the news cycles. I write as someone who believes that agents of the Russian state did assassinate Litvinenko, and that the Russian security services carried out at least some of the apartment bombings that provided the pretext for the brutal assault on Chechnya. I believe the Russian occupation of Crimea and parts of Georgia is illegal. On the other hand, in Syria Russia has saved the Middle East from domination by a new wave of US and Saudi sponsored extreme jihadists.
> 
> The naive view of the world as “goodies” and “baddies”, with our own ruling class as the good guys, is for the birds. I witnessed personally in Uzbekistan the willingness of the UK and US security services to accept and validate intelligence they knew to be false in order to pursue their policy objectives. We should be extremely sceptical of their current anti-Russian narrative. There are many possible suspects in this attack.


ETA: I've not knowingly read anything else by Murray, nor have a clue who he is.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

ffs


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 14, 2018)

Who else could have access to the nerve agent Novickok?  
(Not a rhetorical question..)


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

Its there in front of you - use your own knowledge. Fucking  giving it over to loons. Idiot.

edit: to corax


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Is this the method you used to come to the understanding  that the paris, the belgium and american casino attacks were fake?


This is a total misrepresentation and dirty non-sequitur having nothing to do with the thread subject. Go back to your petty insults.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Its there in front of you - use your own knowledge. Fucking  giving it over to loons. Idiot.
> 
> edit: to corax




...I'm glad you edited that...
I was looking at my duvet thinking..."fuckinell it's there in front of me".


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> This is a total misrepresentation and dirty non-sequitur having nothing to do with the thread subject. Go back to your petty insults.


Was it a different method you used to come to that conclusion then?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> ...I'm glad you edited that...
> I was looking at my duvet thinking..."fuckinell it's there in front of me".


You may prove to be evil yet...


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You may prove to be evil yet...



......


----------



## xenon (Mar 14, 2018)

Stop quoting Craig Murray FFS.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

xenon said:


> Stop quoting Craig Murray FFS.


It literally is their only source. They don't check his sources.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

craig murray does wing it a bit doesnt he ?


----------



## xenon (Mar 14, 2018)

I don’t understand the reticence, assuming there is some, to refer this to the OPCW and yes I agree,  Corbin   Has fucked up asking about  giving the Russians a sample.   Inferring that we should.


----------



## xenon (Mar 14, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> It literally is their only source. They don't check his sources.



 It’s not like he hasn’t been critiqued on here a number of times.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

xenon said:


> I don’t understand the reticence, assuming there is some, to refer this to the OPCW and yes I agree,  Corbin   Has fucked up asking about  giving the Russians a sample.   Inferring that we should.


Because it's done. _even having this convo is helping suggest that its not_


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 14, 2018)

xenon said:


> It’s not like he hasn’t been critiqued on here a number of times.


They don't count

But fuck me, been a posh lad and ambassador of fuckwhere - on your knees. They say deference died with the 60s. Not with these loons.


----------



## Corax (Mar 14, 2018)

Like I said, I've no idea who he is. I'm not even particularly interested in the subject, so have no desire to read up on any in-depth analysis. I just thought it an interesting read, after it popped up on FlipBoard, so thought I'd share it in case anyone else did too. Apologies if it's rankled anyone.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 14, 2018)

Corax said:


> ETA: I've not knowingly read anything else by Murray, nor have a clue who he is.


He's a distinguished civil servant turned whistleblower. He was sacked as Ambassador to Uzbekhistan when he blew the whistle on 'extraordinary rendition'.

There is no apology needed for quoting him.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 14, 2018)

he was sacked for shitty behavior- do your homework


----------



## Humberto (Mar 14, 2018)

A crime should be prosecuted, doesn't matter if its Putin. Definitely guilty. Flagrant.

And why the fuck do they they not allow examination? What I'm saying is they have recently denounced them. Are we too important and prestigious to follow that up, defend the position?

It was only the other week Johnson was saying something along the lines of Russia being a 'malign' influence. Perhaps if we didn't allow stupid toffs with no credibility to mouth off for no reason we would be in a better position.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> He's a distinguished civil servant turned whistleblower. He was sacked as Ambassador to Uzbekhistan when he blew the whistle on 'extraordinary rendition'.
> 
> There is no apology needed for quoting him.


What's this distinguished? It's own follow up answers  I suppose. Uzbekistan.


----------



## DaRealSpoon (Mar 15, 2018)

Could it be that that the tories have realised that this ere brexit malarkey is completely doomed and so them and the EU have come up with a cunning plan to rally together against a common foe in order to keep the UK in Europe but save face in backtracking?

Or not.... It's probably not.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> This is a total misrepresentation and dirty non-sequitur having nothing to do with the thread subject. Go back to your petty insults.


Harrumph. Conspiraloon Playbook ¶147.3.19b


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

DaRealSpoon said:


> Could it be that that the tories have realised that this ere brexit malarkey is completely doomed and so them and the EU have come up with a cunning plan to rally together against a common foe in order to keep the UK in Europe but save face in backtracking?
> 
> Or not.... It's probably not.


This really is bringing the loons  out of the woodwork.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

Humberto said:


> And why the fuck do they they not allow examination?


The UK will share their findings with the OPCW. Why the fuck would they give a sample to the Russians? Do you really think that Putin will have it analysed then turn around and then say “ok, hands up, it was us”?

Ridiculous.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

Was not this your line yesterday?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Was not this your line yesterday?


Pretty much. Why are these people homing in on the refusal to supply a sample to one of the most corrupt regimes on the planet as if it were proof of their innocence?


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2018)

If you accuse someone of a crime, they're allowed to examine the evidence.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> If you accuse someone of a crime, they're allowed to examine the evidence.


They’re able to see the evidence and they will eventually but there’s absolutely no reason whatsoever to be pandering to a delaying tactic and political gamesmanship at the moment. An ex security services chap was on the radio last night pointing out that this is just the tip of a very large iceberg and that the Putin regime has a form sheet as long as a donkey’s cock for assassinations and espionage that don’t make the mainstream news.

What do you think is more likely here?


----------



## andysays (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> If you accuse someone of a crime, they're allowed to examine the evidence.


But generally it's for the recognised authorities, in this case the OPCW, to administer that process. What you seem to be suggesting seems like the accused can dictate the whole procedure, regardless of what agreed formal mechanisms exist.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

How did opcw go with Russia as regards the chemical attack in Syria last April? Bullshit deflection and time wasting. Chaff. Plenty of British chaff around eh dexter? You spineless cunt.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2018)

andysays said:


> But generally it's for the recognised authorities, in this case the OPCW, to administer that process. What you seem to be suggesting seems like the accused can dictate the whole procedure, regardless of what agreed formal mechanisms exist.


Is the UK following those formal mechanisms?

Has the police report been finalised and handed over?

It may be true that it was a Russian act but I'll wait for the evidence of it.  The UK has a history of false allegations and manufactured evidence.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Is the UK following those formal mechanisms?
> 
> Has the police report been finalised and handed over?
> 
> It may be true that it was a Russian act but I'll wait for the evidence of it.  The UK has a history of false allegations and manufactured evidence.


It'll be another hot day in douma before scum like you accept it.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

1000 dead and you won't accept it. Just use formal delaying process. What hope you treat this one properly?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> 1000 dead and you won't accept it. Just use formal delaying process. What hope you treat this one properly?


Has Dexter got loon form?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 15, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Who else could have access to the nerve agent Novickok?
> (Not a rhetorical question..)



most  countries with any sort of science lab  could knock up a sample the knowledge is out there Porton Down probably has a sample along with everything else horribly lethal.
 given a week or so they could wipe out Salisbury and make a very good go of it not sure they still have the spray equipped hunter anymore but could build something lots of knowledge.
  but covert use of a nerve agent? they'd point you to a nice comfy room with padded walls for suggesting that they know how dangerous that stuff is some bloke in a self contained space suit is not creeping up on anyone.


----------



## jusali (Mar 15, 2018)

UK to build new chemical defence centre

48 million? A slight over reaction or am I being glib?


----------



## Mr Moose (Mar 15, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Especially in advance of their World Cup hosting which one would expect them to want to pass off without diplomatic incidents.
> 
> On the other hand there might well be actors wishing Russia not to benefit from the upcoming goodwill.



To be frank a mass boycott of the tournament is probably the only way Russia’s team will get out of the group stages. 

We can spin it any daft way we want, but the Kremlin has made it pretty clear this is their game by both leaving a calling card and speaking their intentions out loud. 

This is for internal Russian consumption. What the rest of the world think about it is secondary and therefore don’t look for logic that might superficially appeal over here.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Is the UK following those formal mechanisms?
> 
> Has the police report been finalised and handed over?
> 
> It may be true that it was a Russian act but I'll wait for the evidence of it.  The UK has a history of false allegations and manufactured evidence.



What do you think is more likely; that the UK has analysed the substance and found it to be Russian made and therefore either deployed or lost by Russia (the regime with plenty of previous for knocking-off dissidents and whose leader has publicly stated that his enemies aren't safe abroad), OR; it's a British security services plot and it's our own spooks who did these people over in a bid to piss on Russia's world cup/smear them/something else?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Has Dexter got loon form?


Oh yes. Proper rt loon.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

Ah.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What do you think is more likely; that the UK has analysed the substance and found it to be Russian made and therefore either deployed or lost by Russia (the regime with plenty of previous for knocking-off dissidents and whose leader has publicly stated that his enemies aren't safe abroad), OR; it's a British security services plot and it's our own spooks who did these people over in a bid to piss on Russia's world cup/smear them/something else?


What's that got to do with due process?  

Anyway...if you're just going to be a cunt about it don't bother.   Not interested.


----------



## rabbit stew (Mar 15, 2018)

Salisbury conveiniently close to Porton Down ,  Makes you think.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

Makes you think what exactly? There's little that could make you types ever think.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> What's that got to do with due process?


What are you on about? Any country can expel another country's diplomats if they wish to. 


> Anyway...if you're just going to be a cunt about it don't bother.   Not interested.


How have I been a cunt about anything.  

But yes, if you're a conspiracy theorist I have no wish to take this any further with you.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

He's not a full on loon. He's the periphery which is the real target. The people who seem normal at first touch. He used to be a  socialist  now he's a nationalist. And never the twain shall meet eh...


----------



## andysays (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Is the UK following those formal mechanisms?
> 
> Has the police report been finalised and handed over?
> 
> It may be true that it was a Russian act but I'll wait for the evidence of it.  The UK has a history of false allegations and manufactured evidence.


I'm not attempting to defend the present or past behaviour of the UK government, but that doesn't mean I'm going to pretend that Russia doesn't have form for this sort of thing and that Putin's current response is bollocks


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 15, 2018)

so in loon land the russians DID hack the american election and the brexit vote but this, a bit of old school wetwork, this they are innocent of? Its hard keeping track


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> so in loon land the russians DID hack the american election and the brexit vote but this, a bit of old school wetwork, this they are innocent of? Its hard keeping track


That's the Liberal loons on the first part. It's the anti american stalinists on the latter.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2018)

My N-2-diethylaminomethylacetoamidido-methylphosphonofluoridate brings all the loons to the yard.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Salisbury conveiniently close to Porton Down ,  Makes you think.



Only if you can't think...

So, these Machiavellian types at Porton Down - where do think they live? Where do you think they go for a pizza at the weekend? Where do you think their kids play?

Does it begin to occur to you that perhaps the least likely place on earth that people from Porton Down are going to spread out a nerve agent is the place they live and socialise, and the places their children play and go to school?

Or are you a weapons grade fucknugget with the intellect of a house brick?


----------



## DaRealSpoon (Mar 15, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> This really is bringing the loons  out of the woodwork.



I was taking the piss mate... 

Hook, line and copy of Angling Times


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

DaRealSpoon said:


> I was taking the piss mate...
> 
> Hook, line and copy of Angling Times


Fair play, but you'd have had plenty of bell-ended company on this thread so forgive me for taking you at your word.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What are you on about? Any country can expel another country's diplomats if they wish to.
> 
> How have I been a cunt about anything.
> 
> But yes, if you're a conspiracy theorist I have no wish to take this any further with you.


Due process re chem/bio attacks mate, due process.   Where's my conspiracy?  What have I alleged?   You're the one shouting about who is guilty/innocent, not me.

Asking for reasonable evidence is not ct.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

kebabking said:


> Only if you can't think...
> 
> So, these Machiavellian types at Porton Down - where do think they live? Where do you think they go for a pizza at the weekend? Where do you think their kids play?
> 
> ...


No security on weekends apparently. _None at all_. So easily deniable...makes you think.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Due process re chem/bio attacks mate, due process.   Where's my conspiracy?  What have I alleged?   You're the one shouting about who is guilty/innocent, not me.
> 
> Asking for reasonable evidence is not ct.


The whole internet went dark with this russian crap after about 4 yesterday. All to achieve...this.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

When due process is blocked or finishes anyway despite non-compliance and obstructions dexter says it's a fit up. They did it with douma and they have just done it with Khan Sheikhoun . No one falls for this rubbish anymore surely?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

Christ, the massed ranks of BUF olympia demanding due process.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

The only explanation I can think of is that Butchers is working for whoever it is that's trying to frame Russia.

And from the half-deranged ferocity with which he's attacking anyone who suggests that Russia didn't do it, I can only assume he's working with a gun to his head.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Due process re chem/bio attacks mate, due process.   Where's my conspiracy?  What have I alleged?   You're the one shouting about who is guilty/innocent, not me.
> 
> Asking for reasonable evidence is not ct.


But I get the feeling that no matter what they produce, you're not going to buy it anyway.

Put it this way, what do you think is the most likely scenario here? What do you think has happened?

They've just kicked out almost half the Russian diplomats in the country. Why do YOU think they did that?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 15, 2018)

and the Russians are gearing up to counter

Russia will expel British diplomats in retaliation for Britain's expulsion of 23 spies


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

Lifting those 1500 banning orders seem like a good move now._ It's on._


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> But I get the feeling that no matter what they produce, you're not going to buy it anyway....


A bit rich, coming from someone who accepts everything they (the tories) say without proof and looks to their mates for shit to throw when all I mentioned was due process.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

course its the Russians. lets be honest, if it was any other group holding this stuff, it would not be a targeted attack on a pair, it would be a whole town getting hit


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> course its the Russians. lets be honest, if it was any other group holding this stuff, it would not be a targeted attack on a pair, it would be a whole town getting hit


It may have been the syrian rebels - they're always chemically attacking everyone but the regime.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> A bit rich, coming from someone who accepts everything they (the tories) say without proof and looks to their mates for shit to throw when all I mentioned was due process.


I don't know what you're talking about. I've been perfectly polite to you.

So it's a tory conspiracy? 

Why do you think this? What are they trying to achieve?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

as much as I hate to say it, I don't think there is going to be much in the way of hard evidence coming up here to firmly nail it on the Russians - just cos May is an incompetent shite doesn't mean that the UKG are making the wrong call here.


----------



## elbows (Mar 15, 2018)

jusali said:


> UK to build new chemical defence centre
> 
> 48 million? A slight over reaction or am I being glib?



Seems like an attempt not to appear weak, to offer some reassurance to the public about defences on this front, and to play into a broader agenda/ministerial battle about defence spending.

I was somewhat amused by some of the bragging:



> Mr Williamson will say the UK leads the world in research into chemical, biological and radiological warfare but that this expertise needs to be developed further to confront potential hostile activity by states and individuals.



Good thing we have the 'purely for defence' caveat otherwise this brag might appear slightly out of tune with prevailing opinions about such methods of warfare.


----------



## Supine (Mar 15, 2018)

Of course Russia did it. Their reaction to the incident and attitude screams of guilty.

No doubt we have a spy ready to take out one of theirs at any moment #wetwork


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

So if Putin is projecting power onto the streets of GB, what realistically is GB to do about it?

Expelling diplomats, whining to some international body, stopping some kids going to public schools and banning named Russians from trips to Harrods only shows just how weak GB is. Oh, and men in suits refusing to watch football. Yet assuming no-one wants to go to war over this, what can a minor power do when picked on by a world class bully without scruples?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2018)

kebabking said:


> Does it begin to occur to you that perhaps the least likely place on earth that people from Porton Down are going to spread out a nerve agent is the place they live and socialise, and the places their children play and go to school?


Or that an ex-GRU intelligence officer who was reported to have been advising the authorities on Soviet/Russian techniques/methods might hang out somewhere not unadjacent to the centre of gravity of the military-industrial complex?


not-bono-ever said:


> as much as I hate to say it, I don't think there is going to be much in the way of hard evidence coming up here to firmly nail it on the Russians - just cos May is an incompetent shite doesn't mean that the UKG are making the wrong call here.


Indeed we do not know, may never know given the penchant for obsessive security by HMG, what other information they might possess (and may have shared with the US only thus far). For example, analytical details from samples on precursors, scrubber by-products, humint/elint, that clearly points to the source. Of course they might have nothing, but quite possibly there are other clues that will never be divulged to a wider audience but certain persons on either side will be well aware of what their opposites in the dark arts know, and all the rest is just a game for public consumption and distraction.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

Also as an aside , I don't have the specifics obviously but generally Corbyn would have been briefed on the situation by the security lot - he is privy council these days.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 15, 2018)

What’s more believable: 

Russia has assassinated a treasonous traitor. 

Or 

Britain has manufactured it to look that way in order to raise tensions with a military power superior to ourselves whilst losing the support of countless countries when it transpires that this has happened.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> So if Putin is projecting power onto the streets of GB, what realistically is GB to do about it?
> 
> Expelling diplomats, whining to some international body, stopping some kids going to public schools and banning named Russians from trips to Harrods only shows just how weak GB is. Oh, and men in suits refusing to watch football. Yet assuming no-one wants to go to war over this, what can a minor power do when picked on by a world class bully without scruples?


Not much but even if it was the Somalians killing a dissident in New York, the situation wouldn't be that different, At the end of the day when it comes to disputes between 2 sovereign states the options come down to strongly worded letters, economic sanctions and military action. 
The politicians on both sides get to decide how far they want to take this for the sake of one failed assassination, my guess is not that far.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What’s more believable:
> 
> Russia has assassinated a treasonous traitor.
> 
> ...



Most believable doesn't necessarily mean true though.

I would be very surprised if this was anyone other than Putin, but then I've been very surprised before and doubtless will be again.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> So if Putin is projecting power onto the streets of GB, what realistically is GB to do about it?...Yet assuming no-one wants to go to war over this, what can a minor power do when picked on by a world class bully without scruples?



start by not describing, or thinking of, the UK as a minor power when compared to Russia.

the UK's economy is bigger than Russia's. the UK has far more friends - or those who share the same interests as the UK - as Russia does, and those combined economies _dwarf_ Russia's. 

Putin is only a world class bully because people allow him to be - cut Russia out of the global/western financial system and stop buying their gas, and the Russian economy and its ability to strong arm others drops out of the window.  added to that the ability of the Russian military to respond is hugely limited: Syria has shown just how limited their ability to project military force is, and thats without interferance. they are strong on their own territory with regards to land warfare, but assuming that no one wants to annex several thousand square Km of Steppe, it doesn't really matter, because at sea and in the air they are decades behind the west in technological terms and their ability to conduct n offensive operations has been see to be far less than they would wish it to be. 

as a concrete example, when the Russian Carrier sailed down to the Med to conduct air strikes on Syria it firstly stripped most the Russian fleet of its most able technical people meaning than not much else sailed, but that when it eventually arrived its effect was not far off zero because its aircraft were so unreliable and underpowered, and it then sloped off home - breaking down on the way - having achieved little other than leaving some of its aircraft on the Mediterrean sea bed...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> So if Putin is projecting power onto the streets of GB, what realistically is GB to do about it?
> 
> Expelling diplomats, whining to some international body, stopping some kids going to public schools and banning named Russians from trips to Harrods only shows just how weak GB is. Oh, and men in suits refusing to watch football. Yet assuming no-one wants to go to war over this, what can a minor power do when picked on by a world class bully without scruples?



Russia needs the UK to launder its money, and the UK needs the comission on that laundered money. I suspect Russia can more easily replace London than London can replace Russia, so that makes meaningful economic action from the UK unlikely.


----------



## jusali (Mar 15, 2018)

As a complete cynic, what's this glittery sensationalist story actually distracting us from?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

jusali said:


> As a complete cynic, what's this glittery sensationalist story actually distracting us from?



The government just got rid of free school meals for about a million kids.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What’s more believable:
> 
> Russia has assassinated a treasonous traitor.
> 
> ...



I think it's entirely believable that HMG hasn't got a clue who done it and are blaming the Russians because a) it is easily believable and b) a culprit has to be found quickly and c) they can get away with it.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Russia needs the UK to launder its money, and the UK needs the comission on that laundered money. I suspect Russia can more easily replace London than London can replace Russia, so that makes meaningful economic action from the UK unlikely.


 
The wording on mays statement is interesting

Freezing Russian state assets “wherever we have the evidence that they may be used to threaten the life or property of U.K. nationals or residents”. Police to target “serious criminals and corrupt elites.”  “There is no place for these people -- or their money -- in our country.”

The first one is quite specific.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 15, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I think it's entirely believable that HMG hasn't got a clue who done it and are blaming the Russians because a) it is easily believable and b) a culprit has to be found quickly and c) they can get away with it.



And why is it easily believable? Because it’s the sort of thing Russia does.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> “There is no place for these people -- or their money -- in our country.”



Except for the Oligarch theme park formerly known as London


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> The wording on mays statement is interesting
> 
> Freezing Russian state assets “wherever we have the evidence that they may be used to threaten the life or property of U.K. nationals or residents”
> 
> ...


It sounds wide ranging at first then on inspection it narrows down - then on third look it means they can do what they want to whoever they want and don't have to say why due to security reasons. So it's ultra-carte-blanche.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

Russia is Begbie in this scenario - throwing the pint glass from the balcony into the crowd at the bar = chaos


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I think it's entirely believable that HMG hasn't got a clue who done it and are blaming the Russians because a) it is easily believable and b) a culprit has to be found quickly and c) they can get away with it.



HMG blaming Putin through sheer lack of better ideas is certainly more believable than them executing some subtle and devious false flag stunt with no obvious motive and a non-trivial risk of getting found out.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

It used to be gadaffi who carried the blame for most things in the old days - whatever happened to him ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> It used to be gadaffi who carried the blame for most things in the old days - whatever happened to him ?



Tony Blair decided he was alright after all. Then Dave Cameron decided he wasn't. Now he's dead and Libya continues to live happily ever after.

And somewhere in there Hilary Clinton sent some emails which the Russians later got hold of, but that's a story for another day.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> The first one is quite specific.


That spook on the radio suggested that "they" have a very expensive penthouse that overlooks the MOD buildings that's probably on the grab list.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Tony Blair decided he was alright after all. Then Dave Cameron decided he wasn't. Now he's dead and Libya continues to live happily ever after.
> 
> And somewhere in there Hilary Clinton sent some emails which the Russians later got hold of, but that's a story for another day.


Any libyans involved at all?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> HMG blaming Putin through sheer lack of better ideas is certainly more believable than them executing some subtle and devious false flag stunt with no obvious motive and a non-trivial risk of getting found out.


HMG knowing_ exactly_ what has gone on via intelligence and scientific sources that they are unlikely to ever make public, is far more believable.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 15, 2018)

Twitter spat involving amongst others Craig Murray, who imo has bitten off more than he can chew.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Any libyans involved at all?



No. When researching my post which was obviously intended to serve as a comprehensive and unabridged history of the Libyan revolution I didn't come across anything about Libyans. Gadaffi himself was famously Chinese of course.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> It sounds wide ranging at first then on inspection it narrows down - then on third look it means they can do what they want to whoever they want and don't have to say why due to security reasons. So it's ultra-carte-blanche.


 
It all depends upon the delivery here -  they comments are both vague yet specific enough to mean something/nothing - but also to allow an escape route for both parties if needed.

ETA, UWO's came in at the end of January, which sorta pre-empts the Russian criminal stuff mentioned and would likely be used anyway. I knew there was something that covered this already

Unexplained Wealth Orders: what you need to know


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> No. When researching my post which was obviously intended to serve as a comprehensive and unabridged history of the Libyan revolution I didn't come across anything about Libyans. Gadaffi himself was famously Chinese of course.


That's good - the libyans enthused by the uprisings in tunisia and egypt  protesting about housing that kicked it off can easily be ignored in favour  of a narrative of simple british/western manipulation. Like Syria._ Don't protest or they'll get you._


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Twitter spat involving amongst others Craig Murray, who imo has bitten off more than he can chew.


Ex-diplomat-turned-conspiraloonspud-fails-to-understand-highly-relevant-scientific-technical-aspects shocker. Not.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> That's good - the libyans enthused by the uprisings in tunisia and egypt  protesting about housing that kicked it off can easily be ignored in favour  of a narrative of simple british/western manipulation. Like Syria._ Don't protest or they'll get you._



Poe's law - Wikipedia


----------



## Combustible (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Salisbury conveiniently close to Porton Down ,  Makes you think.



I like the idea that a crack team of British agents performing a false flag operation to frame the Russians couldn't be arsed to drive more than 30 minutes up the road. Do you think their travel expenses wouldn't stretch any further?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2018)

Mr Moose said:


> This is for internal Russian consumption. What the rest of the world think about it is secondary and therefore don’t look for logic that might superficially appeal over here.


I think there is little risk of our squirrelly friend looking for logic anywhere...


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2018)

kebabking said:


> Only if you can't think...
> 
> So, these Machiavellian types at Porton Down - where do think they live? Where do you think they go for a pizza at the weekend? Where do you think their kids play?
> 
> ...


Fuck off. Some of my best friends are house bricks.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Salisbury conveiniently close to Porton Down ,  Makes you think.



Indeed. Does the stew need a bit more thickening or is it lacking a bit of spice?


----------



## elbows (Mar 15, 2018)

> The leaders of France, Germany, the US and UK have issued a joint statement on the nerve agent attack in the UK, saying Russian responsibility was the "only plausible explanation".
> 
> The statement condemned the "first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War", calling it an assault on UK sovereignty.



Allies condemn chemical attack on ex-spy


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 15, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> France wants proof before responding on Britain poisoning affair



Not any more. I guess they got their proof. Is that good enough for you?

France agrees with UK that Russia to blame for spy poison attack




			
				 The Embassy of France said:
			
		

> Since the beginning of the week, the United Kingdom has kept France closely informed of the evidence gathered by British investigators, as well as the elements showing _Russia’s responsibility in the attack. __France shares the UK’s conclusion that there is no other plausible explanation_, and reiterates its solidarity with its ally.


(my emph)

"No other plausible explanation" for attack than UK's - France in the United Kingdom - La France au Royaume-Uni


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

As U.K. Waits for Putin Response, It Says ‘Go Away and Shut Up’

Slimy Williamson is angling for the top job blates.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 15, 2018)

kebabking said:


> Or are you a weapons grade fucknugget with the intellect of a house brick?



One of the best loon put-downs ever.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> One of the best loon put-downs ever.


"fucknugget" definitely helped, but it's also improved by excellent scansion.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 15, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> As U.K. Waits for Putin Response, It Says ‘Go Away and Shut Up’
> 
> Slimy Williamson is angling for the top job blates.



he's been going for it since he went from Chief Whip to Defence - to be fair, whatever his personal ambition may be, he's stood up for his department against the Treasury to a degree the MOD hasn't seen in perhaps 30 years. i don't doubt that the defence budget is being used as his chariot, but he's delivering (for the moment).


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

kebabking said:


> start by not describing, or thinking of, the UK as a minor power when compared to Russia.


when the British government wants to make a point by publicly killing British citizens abroad they choose to do so in places like Syria, Iraq and Gibraltar.  Russia appears to choose Britain.  Possibly the choice is a way of showing respect for the host country's strength and power.

I mean, I take you point, but I'm not sure Putin sees the power balance in quite the same light.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 15, 2018)

jusali said:


> UK to build new chemical defence centre
> 
> 48 million? A slight over reaction or am I being glib?



It'll be a project that's already planned being reannounced so as to sound like they're doing something. You don't design and cost a new defence centre over the course of a weekend. Probably just a new toilet block being built using 'best value' PFI procurement.


----------



## agricola (Mar 15, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> HMG knowing_ exactly_ what has gone on via intelligence and scientific sources that they are unlikely to ever make public, is far more believable.



That doesn't sound like HMG.  What would be more likely is that as part of the cuts they'd just made the team that had all their knowledge about this type of nerve agent redundant, and then had to hurriedly pay through the nose to get them all back.  This would also explain the £40 million new building which probably only contains their new comfy chairs, break area, Nespresso machines etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> when the British government wants to make a point by publicly killing British citizens abroad they choose to do so in places like Syria, Iraq and Gibraltar.  Russia appears to choose Britain.  Possibly the choice is a way of showing respect for the host country's strength and power.
> 
> I mean, I take you point, but I'm not sure Putin sees the power balance in quite the same light.



He knows the imbalance in military power is irrelevant because the UK and friends aren't going to attack Russia. He's already tested this theory by invading a European country and helping himself to a large chunk of it without any repercussions, and by bombing the west's proxies in Syria also with no repercussions. He also knows the current British government is spineless, incompetent and at the mercy of foreign capital, much of it Russian.


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> He knows the imbalance in military power is irrelevant because the UK and friends aren't going to attack Russia. He's already tested this theory by invading a European country and helping himself to a large chunk of it without any repercussions, and by bombing the west's proxies in Syria also with no repercussions. He also knows the current British government is spineless, incompetent and at the mercy of foreign capital, much of it Russian.


it's not power then, is it?


----------



## agricola (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> He knows the imbalance in military power is irrelevant because the UK and friends aren't going to attack Russia. He's already tested this theory by invading a European country and helping himself to a large chunk of it without any repercussions, and by bombing the west's proxies in Syria also with no repercussions. He also knows the current British government is spineless, incompetent and at the mercy of foreign capital, much of it Russian.



TBF I think the Ukraine thing was tolerated because it made it far more likely that the rest of the country would remain in the Western sphere of influence, and given the people involved at the time I would not be at all surprised if he was actually told that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> it's not power then, is it?



Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.


----------



## elbows (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.



Some people have weird ideas about how much power the UK has these days dont they? Just because we are not at the peak of the British Empires powers, and some of the loss of international power had to be pointed out via things like Suez all those years ago, doesnt mean we fell off the charts in the subsequent decades.

In addition to the things you point out, we might compare our defence budget to that of Russia and see that they are not in completely different leagues. Or take note of how Russia has not failed to recognise our Atlantic Bridge/US Proxy role. Or our position in the ranks of global arms dealing. Or our focus on cyber warfare stuff including flogging related products to other countries. Or our loud role in NATO. Or our permanent seat on the UN security council.


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.


and that's very useful for keeping Gibraltar or Argentina in check, but Russia is taking no notice.  I presume no-one wants war over this, so MAD is of no practical use.  

The bluff- or perhaps confidence trick- is being called. Russia is asserting that it's a modern world power irrespective of sneers about rusty ships or whatever. And it's asserting that the UK is a paper tiger, albeit one with a significant legacy warfighting capability. 

Because, at least in the short term, direct warfighting isn't part of a modern struggle comprised of social force manipulation, overtly public signalling via murder, industrial espionage & sabotage, disregard for IP and so on.  That's not to say it never will be, but right now, for example the UK has recently been running around trying to set up cyber security arrangements as a reaction to the behaviour of the Russian and Chinese states.

If Britain is so powerful, why has Russia felt safe to murder at least two ex-spies in such public demonstrations of contempt- one using a radiological weapon and the other a nerve weapon?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

elbows said:


> Some people have weird ideas about how much power the UK has these days dont they? Just because we are not at the peak of the British Empires powers, and some of the loss of international power had to be pointed out via things like Suez all those years ago, doesnt mean we fell off the charts in the subsequent decades.
> 
> In addition to the things you point out, we might compare our defence budget to that of Russia and see that they are not in completely different leagues. Or take note of how Russia has not failed to recognise our Atlantic Bridge/US Proxy role. Or our position in the ranks of global arms dealing. Or our focus on cyber warfare stuff including flogging related products to other countries. Or our loud role in NATO. Or our permanent seat on the UN security council.



When comparing military spending it's worth remembering that while maybe 10% of what the UK government spends on anything disappears between the sofa cushions of corruption, in Russia that figure is going to be a lot higher.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 15, 2018)

*Russian Embassy, UK *‏Verified account @RussianEmbassy 23h23 hours ago
The temperature of 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			








 relations drops to 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










, but we are not afraid of cold weather.






Russian embassy having a laugh on twitter.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> and that's very useful for keeping Gibraltar or Argentina in check, but Russia is taking no notice.



There's a line and Putin knows where it is. He's not going to march his army into Warsaw tomorrow morning, much as I'm sure it would amuse him to do so.

The fact there's a line at all is a result of US, European etc military power. Putin has a certain amount of wiggle room for international shenanigans because he's the head of a regime based on outright criminality and he doesn't need to worry about domestic opposition, but that same business model that lets him act the big man is sucking the life out of Russia.


----------



## rabbit stew (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Makes you think what exactly? There's little that could make you types ever think.



Textbook pre election false flag.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Textbook pre election false flag.


Tell me: do you poke holes in the tinfoil for your ears, or do you just wrap it round them?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Salisbury conveiniently close to Porton Down ,  Makes you think.


Makes you think what?


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

elbows said:


> Some people have weird ideas about how much power the UK has these days dont they? Just because we are not at the peak of the British Empires powers, and some of the loss of international power had to be pointed out via things like Suez all those years ago, doesnt mean we fell off the charts in the subsequent decades.
> 
> In addition to the things you point out, we might compare our defence budget to that of Russia and see that they are not in completely different leagues. Or take note of how Russia has not failed to recognise our Atlantic Bridge/US Proxy role. Or our position in the ranks of global arms dealing. Or our focus on cyber warfare stuff including flogging related products to other countries. Or our loud role in NATO. Or our permanent seat on the UN security council.


All true and it's so obviously all acted as a deterrent. Oh.

This bloke, with or without his daughter, could have been killed very easily and without any fuss.  Hit and run, fell off a multistorey, gas explosion... But no, as with Litvivenko they chose a method so obviously state sponsored that no government can ignore it. But the British government had almost no response to Litvivenko and can only huff and puff about this one. 

So i go back to my original question, how can Britain respond to this in a way that will achieve anything?  If it can't- and that clown Johnson not going to the world cup really isn't much of a response- then there really isn't any power, is there?


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 15, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Makes you think what?



Yesterday the same unhinged loon was claiming that to stop minting pennies and 2p's would lead directly to a human micro-chipping dystopia.  Another shambolic fucknugget for the ages.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Makes you think what?


From the way our rabbity friend posted, it sounds as if things that make him think don't happen very often...


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Textbook pre election false flag.


yes


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's a line and Putin knows where it is. He's not going to march his army into Warsaw tomorrow morning, much as I'm sure it would amuse him to do so.


Sure.  

But there is a huge gulf between symbolic power outreach and starting the third world war.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Yesterday the same unhinged loon was claiming that to stop minting pennies and 2p's would lead directly to a human micro-chipping dystopia.  Another shambolic fucknugget for the ages.


Are they using a legal name?


----------



## andysays (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Textbook pre election false flag.



Do you lot actually have a textbook which guides you through this stuff?

Is it available on Amazon, or if not can you provide a link to somewhere else I could buy one?


----------



## agricola (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> If Britain is so powerful, why has Russia felt safe to murder at least two ex-spies in such public demonstrations of contempt- one using a radiological weapon and the other a nerve weapon?



TBH I don't think power comes into it, that is a matter of what people are willing to do.  We did very little after Litvinenko was murdered, very little after MH-17 was shot down and May proposed doing very little yesterday; I'd imagine the Russian assessment before carrying out this poisoning was that we would do very little about it.


----------



## tim (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> So i go back to my original question, how can Britain respond to this in a way that will achieve anything?  If it can't- and that clown Johnson not going to the world cup really isn't much of a response- then there really isn't any power, is there?



Britain is a rather abstract concept. Abstract concepts are not very good at responding  to anything. The British Government is the political entity from whom one would expect a response and they are responding in a predictable, but from their perspective sensible,  way to this, presumably unexpected,  stroke of good-fortune. This is a gift-horse whose mouth they are not going to give a detailed dental examination.


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

agricola said:


> TBH I don't think power comes into it, that is a matter of what people are willing to do.  We did very little after Litvinenko was murdered, very little after MH-17 was shot down and May proposed doing very little yesterday; I'd imagine the Russian assessment before carrying out this poisoning was that we would do very little about it.


yes, I think that's about right. It's possible there's a frantic cyber battle (or something) going on behind the scenes, but from what we're told, Russia can muder in the UK with impugnity.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> yes, I think that's about right. It's possible there's a frantic cyber battle (or something) going on behind the scenes, but from what we're told, Russia can muder in the UK with impugnity.



The UK could murder with impunity in Russia is it were so minded.

No two nuclear states are going to go to war over the murder of traitors and ex-pat thieves.

So what can any state do beyond a few sanctions or minor boycotts?


----------



## tim (Mar 15, 2018)

newbie said:


> when the British government wants to make a point by publicly killing British citizens abroad they choose to do so in places like Syria, Iraq and Gibraltar.  Russia appears to choose Britain.  Possibly the choice is a way of showing respect for the host country's strength and power.
> 
> I mean, I take you point, but I'm not sure Putin sees the power balance in quite the same light.


Flamboyant acts of political violence are not culturally  acceptable within our society, even though it is thought acceptable and even found amusing when others behave in such a manner. The British state has and does kill people but generally  in a more conventional way.


----------



## newbie (Mar 15, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The UK could murder with impunity in Russia is it were so minded.
> 
> No two nuclear states are going to go to war over the murder of traitors and ex-pat thieves.
> 
> So what can any state do beyond a few sanctions or minor boycotts?



the same as when a foreign power interferes in an important election, expel a few diplomats/spies and make lots of huffing puffing noises.

I see our defence secretary has said "_Russia should go away and shut up_".  Just about sums it up.


----------



## tim (Mar 15, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Enough nuclear weapons to obliterate all life on Earth still counts as power IMO. Ditto one of the world's only blue water navies.


And we know that our great navy is as well led now as it was when Victoria was on the throne


----------



## rabbit stew (Mar 15, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Yesterday the same unhinged loon was claiming that to stop minting pennies and 2p's would lead directly to a human micro-chipping dystopia.  Another shambolic fucknugget for the ages.


'Look at the fucknugget thinking differently to us'


----------



## tim (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> 'Look at the fucknugget thinking differently to us'


Differently, but sadly not intelligently

And actually your conspiraloon theories are not different. You spout the same bollocks as all the other conspiraloons.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> 'Look at the fucknugget thinking differently to us'



Just fuck off, you loon.


----------



## xenon (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Textbook pre election false flag.



Who's election is it on Sunday. And why doesn't that count in your "different thinking?" I mean it's the same motive brain farted for it being a false flag. SO why not the other way round?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> 'Look at the fucknugget thinking differently to us'


When what you do actually starts looking like "thinking", you might have a point...


----------



## T & P (Mar 15, 2018)

Does anyone know what percentage of our gas currently comes from Russia? It used to be a sizeable chunk years ago if memory serves. Just wondering how much of a disruption they could cause if they decided to up the stakes and cut off their supply to the UK...


----------



## 2hats (Mar 15, 2018)

Apparently only a few percent now (probably single digits).


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 15, 2018)

T & P said:


> Does anyone know what percentage of our gas currently comes from Russia? It used to be a sizeable chunk years ago if memory serves. Just wondering how much of a disruption they could cause if they decided to up the stakes and cut off their supply to the UK...



They could have a whole lot of fun disrupting the supply to all of Europe, I imagine, it wouldn't have to be targeted at the UK - nice cold snap coming next week I read. Unlikely though, I think, gas = foreign exchange.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2018)

T & P said:


> Does anyone know what percentage of our gas currently comes from Russia? It used to be a sizeable chunk years ago if memory serves. Just wondering how much of a disruption they could cause if they decided to up the stakes and cut off their supply to the UK...


About 7%


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 15, 2018)

But the european area stuff is about to drastically change price, I'm guessing.

(e2a) All of them, in fact.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 15, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> Textbook pre election false flag.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2018)

from what i can see, the whole "it was not the russians" thing has taken off on social media.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 16, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> from what i can see, the whole "it was not the russians" thing has taken off on social media.



Just watching the news and it showed Russian news taking a less than sympathetic view of the UK. Russia and the UK have been enemies for centuries was the message being pushed, according to the report...


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 16, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> from what i can see, the whole "it was not the russians" thing has taken off in conspiraloonland.



Corrected ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

The Telegraph has come up with a new theory on the method of delivery...



> The nerve agent that poisoned the Russian spy Sergei Skripalwas planted in his daughter’s suitcase before she left Moscow, intelligence agencies now believe.
> 
> Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced the Novichok nerve agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent’s 33-year-old daughter.
> 
> They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her father.



Suitcase spy poisoning plot: nerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei Skripal's daughter'


----------



## likesfish (Mar 16, 2018)

one thing killing a traitor to stop him spilling the beans.
   another going after him years later because Vlad wants to feel a hard man and get his smersch on


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Telegraph has come up with a new theory on the method of delivery...
> 
> 
> 
> Suitcase spy poisoning plot: nerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei Skripal's daughter'



Isn’t that gaining thoughts cos she’s going out with a right shady fucker of a FSB agent?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2018)

William of Walworth said:


> Corrected ...



If only. Lots of general lefty fb sites are running with it. Not surprising - since a lot of it is coming from the labour left.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 16, 2018)

likesfish said:


> one thing killing a traitor to stop him spilling the beans.
> another going after him years later because Vlad wants to feel a hard man and get his smersch on



He's got an election to win.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 16, 2018)

Artaxerxes said:


> He's got an election to win.



Word is that he's not remotely struggling to get re-elected; unless you know otherwise?

Which is precisely why the playing-strong-man for the electorate is a shit reason for topping people years after you let them go.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 16, 2018)

Everyone knows Vlads winning its technically not fixed just everyone knows if Vlad doesn't get the correct number of votes very bad things will happen. he's actually popular in Russia but nothing like making sure eh?


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 16, 2018)

I see murray is being quoted in the groan saying 'just asking questions man' BUT political titan stephen kinnock recons it surely was the russians.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 16, 2018)

its definitely Russians involved only a loonspud would think it was spooks or conservative central office with nerve agent.

 now proving the Kremlin was involved is probably impossible


----------



## kebabking (Mar 16, 2018)

its definitely Russians involved only a loonspud would think it was spooks or conservative central office with nerve agent.

 now proving the Kremlin was involved is probably impossible [/QUOTE]

you fail to grasp the difference between proving it was the Russians, and making public the evidence that proves it was the Russians.

that the Germans - particularly - signed up to yesterdays statement suggests that there is a great deal more evidence that points to the Men With Snow On Their Boots than HMG is prepared to make public, or share with Seamus Milne.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 16, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> About 7%


You can safely half that figure.

(A good general rule of thumb every time dexter posts numbers btw)


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 16, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Everyone knows Vlads winning its technically not fixed just everyone knows if Vlad doesn't get the correct number of votes very bad things will happen. he's actually popular in Russia but nothing like making sure eh?


If we follow the idea that it's all about sundays election then it's far more likely to have been internal state elements looking to disrupt putin's apparently smooth path. But that would open the door to the mad idea that there are competing interests in the russian state rather than one homogeneous putin led willing coalition.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2018)

EDUARD TOLL (LNG tanker)

this 100,00 tonne LNG tanker has just dumped it cargo of Siberian LNG in kent and is returning home for another fillup- this avoids the European pipline bottleneck


----------



## newbie (Mar 16, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> If we follow the idea that it's all about sundays election then it's far more likely to have been internal state elements looking to disrupt putin's apparently smooth path. But that would open the door to the mad idea that there are competing interests in the russian state rather than one homogeneous putin led willing coalition.


if this was a freelance effort to disrupt Putin would you expect such a defiant response from the Russian government rather than, say, a purge?


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Craig Murray has now hit this out of the park - Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray

*Of A Type Developed By Liars 101*
16 Mar, 2018  in Uncategorized by craig

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so. Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation. The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days. The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday:

This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.

UPDATE

This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2018)

.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 16, 2018)

newbie said:


> if this was a freelance effort to disrupt Putin would you expect such a defiant response from the Russian government rather than, say, a purge?


That would be one possibility. The absence of it , as far as we can see anyway, should not be taken as proof that this def wasn't what happened. I'm sure you can think of many reasons to hold back on that course of action in the short term.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2018)

not murray again. please.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Craig Murray has now hit this out of the park - Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray
> 
> *Of A Type Developed By Liars 101*
> 16 Mar, 2018  in Uncategorized by craig
> ...



Oh, it's Israel. Right.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

rabbit stew said:


> 'Look at the fucknugget thinking differently to us'


I think it was_ Weapons grade _fucknugget.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 16, 2018)

I've just realised that there's a rabbit and a squirrel on this thread


----------



## newbie (Mar 16, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> That would be one possibility. The absence of it , as far as we can see anyway, should not be taken as proof that this def wasn't what happened. I'm sure you can think of many reasons to hold back on that course of action in the short term.


I can, although most of them fail the common sense test for a state that wishes to maintain halfway reasonable relationships with rivals and is innocent of the accusation.  

Promoting an identifiable threat generally works to bolster rather than erode political support for a strong leader, so I'm rather unconvinced by the whole proposition.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> ...I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?



how about some 'journalism' on the somewhat improbable idea that either any of Craig Murrays' old FCO colleagues are still talking to him, or that if there are some FCO people still on social terms with him they would be communicating some of the most sensitive information currently held by government to a man who has very publicly gone down the conspiraloon rabbit hole - and being almost entirely financed by RT while so doing - or indeed that anyone at Porton Down would discuss anything beyond the time of day with anyone so both scientifically illiterate and so unreliable as FCO officials?

as a general rule, people at Porton Down make Submariners look like sufferers of verbal diarrhoea, so no, i don't beleive what well established liar and fantastist Craig Murrays says about imagined conversations.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 16, 2018)

So according to Murray there are no "black sites" or "black programmes" in Russia who are completely transparent, unlike the US and Israel? And Novichoks are simultaneously so easy to make that any state could have synthesised them quickly, but not the Russians?  And Boris doesn't want the OPCW to have samples because he doesn't want them to know it cannot be proved it was made in Russia despite them already knowing this? Hmmm


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Craig Murray has now hit this out of the park - Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray
> 
> *Of A Type Developed By Liars 101*
> 16 Mar, 2018  in Uncategorized by craig
> ...


So, yesterday you were hanging your hat on the fact that France would not point the finger at Russia without proof. Given that France is now unequivocal in their condemnation and stand full square behind the UK, will you accept that they have seen proof that you haven’t?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So, yesterday you were hanging your hat on the fact that France would not point the finger at Russia without proof. Given that France is now unequivocal in their condemnation and stand, full square, behind the UK, will you accept that they have seen proof that you haven’t?



Highly unlikely, not the MO of loons.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

kebabking said:


> how about some 'journalism' on the somewhat improbable idea that either any of Craig Murrays' old FCO colleagues are still talking to him, or that if there are some FCO people still on social terms with him they would be communicating some of the most sensitive information currently held by government to man who has very publicly gone down the conspiraloon rabbit hole - and being almoost entirely financed by RT while so doing - or indeed that anyone at Porton Down would discuss anything beyond the time of day with anyone so both scientifically illiterate and so unreliable as FCO officials.


Absolutely. 

Does anyone apart from Squirrel and a few other tinfoilers really believe that Murray has the inside track on some of the most secret gen on the planet currently? 

Craig Murray is a bullshitting skidmark, squirrelp . 

Why do you believe him and Putin over everyone else?


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So, yesterday you were hanging your hat on the fact that France would not point the finger at Russia without proof. Given that France is now unequivocal in their condemnation and stand full square behind the UK, will you accept that they have seen proof that you haven’t?


In what way did I 'hang my hat'? I simply quoted their previous position.

And no of course not. If there is such proof then not only they could say so, but our government could say so.

As Craig Murray very helpfully points out the wording being used belies the non-existence of any such proof.

This is identical to Saddam Hussein and WMDs except the evidence is possibly flimsier.


----------



## pesh (Mar 16, 2018)

what was Saddam's beef with Salisbury again?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> In what way did I 'hang my hat'? I simply quoted their previous position.


You quoted their position to bolster your own position that proof was lacking.

You did that because the French said that they would not condemn Russia without proof.

The French now condemn Russia. 

What does that tell you?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> This is identical to Saddam Hussein and WMDs except the evidence is possibly flimsier.



Says the expert with full access to the evidence.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 16, 2018)

pesh said:


> what was Saddam's beef with Salisbury again?



too pointy, with not enough foundation.

i wonder if squirrelp has a pointy head, or just a sloped one...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

Looks pointy to me.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> The French now condemn Russia.
> 
> What does that tell you?


It means they have joined our position for reasons unknown.

There can be no inference that proof exists from such a change.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Says the expert with full access to the evidence.


That's the line Tony Blair was taking when he was overstating the case.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Craig Murray has now hit this out of the park - Of A Type Developed By Liars - Craig Murray
> 
> *Of A Type Developed By Liars 101*
> 16 Mar, 2018  in Uncategorized by craig
> ...


"Hit this out of the park"? 

Get over yourself, you knob.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Guys this is just smoke and mirrors.

There's no proof, not even any evidence at all that Russia was involved, none has been presented and it is not even claimed that any exists.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Guys this is just smoke and mirrors.
> 
> There's no proof, not even any evidence at all that Russia was involved, none has been presented and it is not even claimed that any exists.



just fuck off you loon.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> You quoted their position to bolster your own position that proof was lacking.
> 
> You did that because the French said that they would not condemn Russia without proof.
> 
> ...


Like everything that squirrelp gets told, it tells him he was right all along. Because he cannot be wrong.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 16, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> The Telegraph has come up with a new theory on the method of delivery...
> 
> 
> 
> Suitcase spy poisoning plot: nerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei Skripal's daughter'


I'm not an expert on assassination techniques, but that doesn't sound like a reliable way to target him. Unless planted in a gift know to be for him. Even then a bit chancey.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 16, 2018)

What side will China choose?


----------



## kebabking (Mar 16, 2018)

Badgers said:


> What side will China choose?



They'll back Putin, not because they like him, but because they recognise that the enemy is the west - and that that which damages the west is good for them in the long term. They will, of course, have the option ready to hoover up client states in Central and Western Asia should Putin's gamble not pay off and go very pear shaped.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> It means they have joined our position for reasons unknown.
> 
> There can be no inference that proof exists from such a change.


 

I first noticed you on the cricket threads and actually rather liked you. Now I find out that you're a WGF.

Really disappointing.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Guys this is just smoke and mirrors.
> 
> There's no proof, not even any evidence at all that Russia was involved, none has been presented and it is not even claimed that any exists.



except its by far the most obvious explanation.

1. well established track record of exactly this type of attack. 
2. access to a military grade nerve agent - that orginates in Russia. 
3. target was on putin's shit list.
4. barely concealed gloating from them and utter lack of any effort to show that it wasn't them other than "fuck off".
5. Unanimous agreement from the rest of europe and the US (bar trump) that is was Russia. (countries with a history of scepticism and currently quite pissed off the UK). 

Its obvious that it was Russia in exactly the same way that it was obvious that Iraqi WMD was bullshit.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2018)

kebabking said:


> They'll back Putin, not because they like him, but because they recognise that the enemy is the west - and that that which damages the west is good for them in the long term. They will, of course, have the option ready to hoover up client states in Central and Western Asia should Putin's gamble not pay off and go very pear shaped.


 
Putin is giving China heavily discounted Siberian gas as an alternate outlet re sanctions

Also, President for life will be looking to annoy the USA & its bestie mates  for its glib throwaway comments about One China policy and steel/Ali tariffs imposition


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> except its by far the most obvious explanation.
> 
> 1. well established track record of exactly this type of attack.


That the Russian state may well have acted in the case of Litvinkienko does not preclude that this may have been a psy-op with the motive of damaging Russia's reputation.



> 2. access to a military grade nerve agent - that orginates in Russia.


This is entirely sketchy. There is no evidence or indeed claim that Russia ever manufactured these nerve agents. The entire Russian chemical weapons has been certified as being destroyed. That includes all the manufacturing plants identified by the Russian chemist who invented the concept of novichoks.



> 3. target was on putin's shit list.


Unlikely he was getting a christmas card. But what to gain from killing him? They'd already imprisoned him for treason - they could have killed him then if they had wanted - and then they had released him on a spy swap agreement. The atmosphere of retribution that then could be whipped up, and is indeed being whipped up - is obvious. Why would they wish that? On the other hand, if someone else wanted to whip up such an atmosphere, this would be a perfect way to attempt to accomplish it.



> 4. barely concealed gloating from them and utter lack of any effort to show that it wasn't them other than "fuck off".


If they had nothing to do with it then they are being asked to prove a negative and they can fairly be dismissive of that.



> 5. Unanimous agreement from the rest of europe and the US (bar trump) that is was Russia. (countries with a history of scepticism and currently quite pissed off the UK).


Countries with a history of siding with the USA and against Russia in the cold war.



> Its obvious that it was Russia in exactly the same way that it was obvious that Iraqi WMD was bullshit.


Out of interest, did you post that WMD was 'bullshit' at the time? I would be genuinely impressed to see such a post.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 16, 2018)

I like how the technically challenged foil wearer shamelessly contradicts his previous missive with each new issue:



			
				14 Mar 2018 a loonspud  said:
			
		

> As recently as 2016 Dr Robin Black, Head of the Detection Laboratory at the UK’s only chemical weapons facility at Porton Down, a former colleague of Dr David Kelly, published in an extremely prestigious scientific journal that *the evidence for the existence of Novichoks was scant* and their composition unknown.
> …
> Given that the OPCW has taken the view *the evidence for the existence of “Novichoks” is dubious*…






			
				16 Mar 2018 a loonspud  said:
			
		

> The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. *This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type.*


(Though the above is both wrong - the programme was Foliant, the line of agents Novichok - and ignorant or disingenuous - all nerve agents G, V, A can be derived from commercial insecticides and fertilisers and G, V were historically derived from research into such, but hey, who’d have thought that batshit loons don’t tend to do their research thoroughly. Furthermore, early development of A-series was carried out by adding new radicals to the molecular skeletons of G-series agents. Commercial analogues, insecticides, etc, were back engineered later for the purposes of denial).


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

2hats said:


> I like how the technically challenged foil wearer shamelessly contradicts his previous missive with each new issue:
> 
> 
> (Though the above is both wrong - the programme was Foliant, the line of agents Novichok - and ignorant or disingenuous - all nerve agents G, V, A can be derived from commercial insecticides and fertilisers and G, V were historically derived from research into such, but hey, who’d have thought that batshit loons don’t tend to do their research thoroughly. Furthermore, early development of A-series was carried out by adding new radicals to the molecular skeletons of G-series agents. Commercial analogues, insecticides, etc, were back engineered later for the purposes of denial).


So what was the nerve agent used and what evidence is there linking it to Russia?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

2hats said:


> I like how the technically challenged foil wearer shamelessly contradicts his previous missive with each new issue:
> 
> 
> (Though the above is both wrong - the programme was Foliant, the line of agents Novichok - and ignorant or disingenuous - all nerve agents G, V, A can be derived from commercial insecticides and fertilisers and G, V were historically derived from research into such, but hey, who’d have thought that batshit loons don’t tend to do their research thoroughly. Furthermore, early development of A-series was carried out by adding new radicals to the molecular skeletons of G-series agents. Commercial analogues, insecticides, etc, were back engineered later for the purposes of denial).


I love how the technically challenged foil wearer is an EXPERT ON FUCKING EVERYTHING, from buildings demolition to chemical warfare.

You'd almost think there must be some kind of common theme linking all these things together... 

ETA: also police procedure, ballistics, firearms...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Out of interest, did you post that WMD was 'bullshit' at the time? I would be genuinely impressed to see such a post.



There are plenty of posters on here that were convinced that WMD was 'bullshit' at the time, and many of us marched against the war, but can clearly see Russian involvement in this.

Basically, most on here are not loons.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> I've just realised that there's a rabbit and a squirrel on this thread


 
Giant rabbit dies mysteriously on board United Airlines flight





RT report on the death of Simon, the English giant, on a US airline. Virtually one year to the day nearly, to the election of Trump. ish

now there's a clue in that article I am sure, the key to unravelling this whole mystery


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> You quoted their position to bolster your own position that proof was lacking.
> 
> You did that because the French said that they would not condemn Russia without proof.
> 
> ...



squirrelp


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Out of interest, did you post that WMD was 'bullshit' at the time? I would be genuinely impressed to see such a post.



nearly every on here - including myself - was calling bullshit one Iraqi WMD from the start. I dont think much of the relevant stuff is still on here. 

This thread is still "live"  *IRAQ: latest news and developments and dates from the start of the war in 2003. 

It includes this quote from me from the early days of the invasion. 



> Well seeing as every single piece of 'news' over the past week regarding Iraqs WMD has turned out to be complete shite I fully expect this to be no different.
> 
> e.g - use of SCUDS, repeated stories of Iraqi troops being 'about to use chemical weapons' and finds of 'chemical warfare kit' turning out to be a dozen old gas masks.



So there you go.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

If I should change my position on the basis of an appeal that I should simply fall into line with the French, why might the French have not changed their position on the basis of an appeal that they should fall into line with the UK?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 16, 2018)

ffs


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

You are saying that I should change my position in the absence of evidence because another party could do precisely no such thing.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 16, 2018)

Oh I am not saying anything much at all but if pressed you would say black was white if it suited your narrative.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> You are saying that I should change my position in the absence of evidence because another party could do precisely no such thing.



You are one thick cunt.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> You are saying that I should change my position in the absence of evidence because another party could have no truck with that very same argument.


You pointed out, not entirely unreasonably, that the French were keeping their powder dry until shown evidence.

The French have now said that they have seen the British evidence of Russian guilt and agree with the findings.

Why are you still taking Russia’s side over that of France, the US, Germany, Australia, and the UK, and pretty much every sane person in the world?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> If I should change my position on the basis of an appeal that I should simply fall into line with the French, why might the French have not changed their position on the basis of an appeal that they should fall into line with the UK?


Hahaha, I think that you trying to justify your debating position on a web forum by the standards of a nation state puts you firmly into the "grandiosity" camp


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> You are saying that I should change my position in the absence of evidence because another party could do precisely no such thing.


Nonono, you stick to your position, and we'll stick to ours. Which is, mostly, one of pointing and laughing.

We will, of course, be laughing on the other side of our faces when your position is vindicated, and we all turn out to be have been completely wrong.

Only that hasn't happened yet, has it? Ever.


----------



## elbows (Mar 16, 2018)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> You pointed out, not entirely unreasonably, that the French were keeping their powder dry until shown evidence.
> 
> The French have now said that they have seen the British evidence of Russian guilt and agree with the findings.
> 
> Why are you still taking Russia’s side over that of France, the US, Germany, Australia, and the UK, and pretty much every sane person in the world?



The real telling one for me is France, since coming to office Macron has been making efforts to build a new relationship with Putin, so for him to now be convinced of Russian involvement is a big deal.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> The French have now said that they have seen the British evidence of Russian guilt and agree with the findings.


I think you are inferring things which are not there at all. I cannot find any French statement from an admittedly brief search which says that they have seen actual evidence. If there is evidence why cannot everyone see it?



> Why are you still taking Russia’s side over that of France, the US, Germany, Australia, and the UK, and pretty much every sane person in the world?


It is with appeals like this that propaganda works. One is asked to believe something simply because other parties ask you to.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

The Independent offers this rather obvious reason as why France might change position:



> This is arguably not the case for France, explaining its initial caution – *even if after international pressure*, it lined up behind its allies.


France's position on the Salisbury nerve agent attack explained


----------



## Supine (Mar 16, 2018)

So who did it then, the Cornish Independence Party?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)




----------



## Teaboy (Mar 16, 2018)

Beyond a Russian statement of culpability I cannot think of any evidence that would be accepted by squirrelp and his motley crew.  It makes these conversations pointless because they know the only evidence they will accept will never happen.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Beyond a Russian statement of culpability I cannot think of any evidence that would be accepted by squirrelp and his motley crew.  It makes these conversations pointless because they know the only evidence they will accept will never happen.


Well, try me with some. _*Any*_. And then complain because I don't agree.

Listen to yourself. This is not an exasperated admission of futility in persuasion, like say with creationists or flat-earthers. It is cover for a glittered turd. Something that looks appealing but is actually totally void of substance.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> Beyond a Russian statement of culpability I cannot think of any evidence that would be accepted by squirrelp and his motley crew.  It makes these conversations pointless because they know the only evidence they will accept will never happen.


Oh, a Russian statement of culpability would probably not be enough - he'd probably argue that that was, in itself,  a false flag operation directed by Bermuda under influence from Angola who were being influenced by the Illuminati.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> nearly every on here - including myself - was calling bullshit one Iraqi WMD from the start. I dont think much of the relevant stuff is still on here.


Accepted and credit where due!


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

"And - let's be clear about this - until I am satisfied as to who it was put the dead frog in Mr Perkins' desk, *nobody* is going out to playtime. I've got all day, you know."


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 16, 2018)

*bbc news latest:*
*Analysis: Was chemical A-234 used?*
*By Gordon Corera, BBC security correspondent*

The implication of the ambassador's comments is that the Russians have been told by the British the exact nerve agent deployed.

So far, British officials have not confirmed that they have communicated this to Moscow or that A-234 was the exact agent deployed.

Based on public sources, A-234 is one of the Novichok family of agents.

It has been reported that it is at least five to eight and possibly 10 times as strong as VX.

Little is known about it but the symptoms are very similar to those which eyewitnesses attributed to Sergei and Yulia Skripal.

In military handbooks it is described as a "delayed casualty agent" - its persistence depends upon how it is used, as well as the weather.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 16, 2018)




----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I think you are inferring things which are not there at all. I cannot find any French statement from an admittedly brief search which says that they have seen actual evidence.


Nonsense. I posted it for you yesterday.



squirrelp said:


> The Independent offers this rather obvious reason as why France might change position:
> 
> 
> France's position on the Salisbury nerve agent attack explained



This is out of date. Since then France has made another statement which makes the Independent article redundant. In fact the Independent article points out how much France has to _lose_ in backing Britain over Russia.

Once again:



			
				 The French Embassy in the United Kingdom said:
			
		

> Since the beginning of the week, the United Kingdom has kept France closely informed of the *evidence gathered by British investigators, as well as the elements showing Russia’s responsibility in the attack*. France shares the UK’s conclusion that there is no other plausible explanation, and reiterates its solidarity with its ally.


"No other plausible explanation" for attack than UK's - France in the United Kingdom - La France au Royaume-Uni


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 16, 2018)




----------



## not a trot (Mar 16, 2018)

Supine said:


> So who did it then, the Cornish Independence Party?



If they did I'm boycotting their pasties.


----------



## elbows (Mar 16, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


>




I dont think its very sensible to draw that conclusion from that photo. eg the destination which they thought might require such levels of protection is not the location of this photo, so not everyone in the photo needs that level of protection. But you have to change into that gear before you get to the danger zone, and so will be pictured wearing it in other locations. This picture might even be showing an area where the external protective equipment is being decontaminated.


----------



## agricola (Mar 16, 2018)

elbows said:


> I dont think its very sensible to draw that conclusion from that photo. eg the destination which they thought might require such levels of protection is not the location of this photo, so not everyone in the photo needs that level of protection. But you have to change into that gear before you get to the danger zone, and so will be pictured wearing it in other locations. This picture might even be showing an area where the external protective equipment is being decontaminated.



Indeed, and of course Trumpton are all the other side of the cordon tape as it is.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Well, try me with some. _*Any*_. And then complain because I don't agree.
> 
> Listen to yourself. This is not an exasperated admission of futility in persuasion, like say with creationists or flat-earthers. It is cover for a glittered turd. Something that looks appealing but is actually totally void of substance.



FWIW I actually agree that there isn't any evidence that we have been party to.  I am saying that if the evidence was produced would we understand it?  Would you believe it?  Prove me wrong, is there anything beyond a Russian mea culpa that you would accept as a smoking gun?


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 16, 2018)

Looks like Glushkov's death was by rather more basic means than nerve gas: 
Police launch murder inquiry over death of Nikolai Glushkov


----------



## xenon (Mar 16, 2018)

BBC radio news just reported police treating the death of  Nicolae Glushkov  as murder.


----------



## xenon (Mar 16, 2018)

Yeah, that guy.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 16, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> *bbc news latest:*
> *Analysis: Was chemical A-234 used?*
> *By Gordon Corera, BBC security correspondent*
> 
> The implication of the ambassador's comments is that the Russians have been told by the British the exact nerve agent deployed.


And there goes Mr Murray's latest comedy theory, down the toilet.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 16, 2018)

the sarcastic tweets from the Russian embassy - it's so bloody obvious it's Russia they might as well have admitted it!


----------



## agricola (Mar 16, 2018)

I wonder how Corbyn will be blamed for allowing the Russian state to use the British courts system to go after one of its enemies?


----------



## Reiabuzz (Mar 16, 2018)

Long thread and been really busy with other shit. Why is Corbyn not accepting that Putin is responsible for this and what's urban's reaction been to this?

I assume this won't play well with the electorate. Stupid at best. Just when I thought we could get rid of these fucking tories he does this.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 16, 2018)

This week saw Gazprom list near on a billion USD worth of debt on the London stock exchange. Just saying like

As U.K. Condemns Russia, Investors Pile Into Gazprom Bond Sale

profits never sleep or whatevs


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 16, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


>




The firemen are clearly stood outside the police tape.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 16, 2018)

dexters now onto crisis actors lol


----------



## keybored (Mar 16, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> except its by far the most obvious explanation.



CTers be like, "Occam _who?_"


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2018)

can't we send to some sort of "basic principles of logic" gulag?


----------



## agricola (Mar 16, 2018)

Reiabuzz said:


> Long thread and been really busy with other shit. Why is Corbyn not accepting that Putin is responsible for this and what's urban's reaction been to this?
> 
> I assume this won't play well with the electorate. Stupid at best. Just when I thought we could get rid of these fucking tories he does this.



I don't think it was a matter of whether or not he accepts that Putin is responsible for it - it was probably some form of misguided attempt to make the point that MPs shouldn't blindly believe whatever the Government happens to say, especially when they don't actually say anything about what they've actually done.  With one exception (the one about the exact science used in the test) the questions were all very relevant.

As you say it was stupid - he knows what type of person the Commons is presently composed of, how they would react to him and the likelyhood that the Press would report it honestly; really should have just said he accepted that Putin almost certainly did it at the start and then spent the rest of his speech gently suggesting that the "tough measures" brought in by the PM were nothing of the sort.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Mar 16, 2018)

agricola said:


> I don't think it was a matter of whether or not he accepts that Putin is responsible for it - it was probably some form of misguided attempt to make the point that MPs shouldn't blindly believe whatever the Government happens to say, especially when they don't actually say anything about what they've actually done.  With one exception (the one about the exact science used in the test) the questions were all very relevant.
> 
> As you say it was stupid - he knows what type of person the Commons is presently composed of, how they would react to him and the likelyhood that the Press would report it honestly; really should have just said he accepted that Putin almost certainly did it at the start and then spent the rest of his speech gently suggesting that the "tough measures" brought in by the PM were nothing of the sort.



I think part of his charm is that he is 'misguided' at times when he speaks which is quite endearing in a way. Surely though he should realise that most of the electorate won't be reading his intellectual response in his Guardian article this morning and instead just see the headlines about him defending Putin plastered across the media. Who the hell is advising him. He's got to play the game.

It's a gift to May.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 16, 2018)

elbows said:


> I dont think its very sensible to draw that conclusion from that photo. eg the destination which they thought might require such levels of protection is not the location of this photo, so not everyone in the photo needs that level of protection. But you have to change into that gear before you get to the danger zone, and so will be pictured wearing it in other locations. This picture might even be showing an area where the external protective equipment is being decontaminated.


I see that it's roped off, firemen on the outside, biohazard bods this side with plastic sheeting on the ground over what seems to be a container.  I've no idea what's going on and didn't claim to because I think it's from a tv news clip and I don't watch tv.

I'm also wondering how effective the roping off is on public safety grounds.


----------



## agricola (Mar 16, 2018)

Reiabuzz said:


> I think part of his charm is that he is 'misguided' at times when he speaks which is quite endearing in a way. Surely though he should realise that most of the electorate won't be reading his intellectual response in his Guardian article this morning and instead just see the headlines about him defending Putin plastered across the media. Who the hell is advising him. He's got to play the game.
> 
> It's a gift to May.



I'd like to think that, but having watched him on the election debates and in various appearances since he became leader I think its more that matters of security (and especially things military) are an anathema to him.  He gives the impression of either not wanting to know or has no confidence in himself to speak on those matters, so he generally seems to avoid mentioning them unless forced into it.  

It is a shame of course because its those areas where the Tories are most vulnerable, especially on their record of what they got up to between 2010 and 2015 where people with long service were getting sacked just before they were due for pensions and in order to save money, when planes were being deliberately wrecked and vital bases closed (the last two being especially relevant now we are back to disliking Russia).


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2018)

Corbyn could have gone big on action against russian oligarchs with london property and donations to the tory party. But no - hes gifted the tories and the media with a massive smear opportunity. FFS.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 16, 2018)

BBC view of Corbyn, last night.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

2hats said:


> And there goes Mr Murray's latest comedy theory, down the toilet.


Why? What of Craig Murray is being contradicted?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

So, squirrelp will you agree that the French have seen evidence of Russia's culpability that caused them to revise their position and agree that they were behind the attack?


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So, squirrelp will you agree that the French have seen evidence of Russia's culpability that caused them to revise their position and agree that they were behind the attack?


Have they said so?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Have they said so?


Yes.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Yes.


Quote please.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Have they said so?



Yes they have, now fuck off you loon.

And, once you've done that, fuck off again.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yes they have, now fuck off you loon.
> 
> And, once you've done that, fuck off again.


Tell you what - you provide the quote, and I'll fuck off from the thread as you request.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Quote please.


Ffs, are you not reading what's being posted?

See post #657


----------



## 8115 (Mar 16, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> BBC view of Corbyn, last night.
> 
> View attachment 130162


Red Jez indeed. Strong look.

Haven't read the thread so apologies if this has been said but surely the modern Russian state is in no way communist so trying to smear Cornyn by linking him to Russia in this way makes no sense. Or does Putin maintain links to Russia's communist past? I don't know much about Russia but I thought Yeltsin (?) did a pretty good job of clearing out communism?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Tell you what - you provide the quote, and I'll fuck off from the thread as you request.







Spymaster said:


> Ffs, are you not reading what's being posted?
> 
> See post #657



Bye, bye.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 16, 2018)

8115 said:


> Red Jez indeed. Strong look.
> 
> Haven't read the thread so apologies if this has been said but surely the modern Russian state is in no way communist so trying to smear Cornyn by linking him to Russia in this way makes no sense. Or does Putin maintain links to Russia's communist past? I don't know much about Russia but I thought Yeltsin (?) did a pretty good job of clearing out communism?


I kinda see your point but psychologically especially to older people Russia I suspect certainly to rightward-leaning people are always going to be seen as 'the red menace' no matter how divorced from the current reality that may be. Also there is a connection to the old communist regime as Putin was in the KGB making the smear more plausible.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 16, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


>



All I know is worst episode of Tellietubbies ever! My kids are still crying


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Nonsense. I posted it for you yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a carefully worded statement which says nothing other than that France is now supporting the UK's position


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> This is a carefully worded statement which says nothing other than that France is now supporting the UK's position


Fuck off.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp  Which part of 'no other plausible explanation' don't you understand? Oh wait, silly me black is the new white.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> This is a carefully worded statement which says nothing other than that France is now supporting the UK's position



You are a fucking cunt, a fruitloon of the highest order, the lowest of life-forms known to man, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, now fuck off as you promised to do so.


----------



## CRI (Mar 16, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The firemen are clearly stood outside the police tape.


Also, the photographer wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the scene for safety reasons, so would have had to use a long focal length lens to get this picture.  This results in perspective distortion - things that are far away, like the firefighter outside the cordon, look much closer than they actually are. 

Here's an example of pictures taken with the camera and all the tins in exactly the same place, but with different focal length lenses each time.  Look at the position of the can on the left in each.  

The human eye sees about 50 mm, so the Chunky Chicken and Vegetable soup is actually positioned somewhere between where it is in the top two shots.

I'm guessing the person who photographed the people in bio-hazard gear was using at least a 300mm lens or longer.  Think of the firefighter as a the tin of chicken soup in the final photo.







It's even more fun with peoples' faces!






You're welcome.


----------



## CRI (Mar 16, 2018)

CRI said:


> Also, the photographer wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the scene for safety reasons, so would have had to use a long focal length lens to get this picture.  This results in perspective distortion - things that are far away, like the firefighter outside the cordon, look much closer than they actually are.
> 
> Here's an example of pictures taken with the camera and all the tins in exactly the same place, but with different focal length lenses each time.  Look at the position of the can on the left in each.
> 
> ...



See also .  . .


----------



## spitfire (Mar 16, 2018)

CRI said:


> Also, the photographer wouldn't have been allowed anywhere near the scene for safety reasons, so would have had to use a long focal length lens to get this picture.  This results in perspective distortion - things that are far away, like the firefighter outside the cordon, look much closer than they actually are.
> 
> Here's an example of pictures taken with the camera and all the tins in exactly the same place, but with different focal length lenses each time.  Look at the position of the can on the left in each.
> 
> ...



Indeed. 

Not only but also....from the same loonspuds thread. (Which they've all ignored).

It's where they suit up/down.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 16, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You are a fucking cunt, a fruitloon of the highest order, the lowest of life-forms known to man, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, now fuck off as you promised to do so.


you represent your little gang really well, the lot of you never cease to surprise


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 16, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> you represent your little gang really well, the lot of you never cease to surprise



That's rich coming from you.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 16, 2018)

elbows said:


> I dont think its very sensible to draw that conclusion from that photo. eg the destination which they thought might require such levels of protection is not the location of this photo, so not everyone in the photo needs that level of protection. But you have to change into that gear before you get to the danger zone, and so will be pictured wearing it in other locations. This picture might even be showing an area where the external protective equipment is being decontaminated.


It’s a decontamination post. The FB will be there to hose everyone inside the perimeter down as a last line of defence/precaution to nix further cross-contamination (and also to provide initial medical help) should the procedures carried out by those inside the taped off area not suffice/complications arise. Similar methodology to radiological decontamination in many ways.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

Well done DexterTCN


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Well, try me with some. _*Any*_. And then complain because I don't agree.
> 
> Listen to yourself. This is not an exasperated admission of futility in persuasion, like say with creationists or flat-earthers. It is cover for a glittered turd. Something that looks appealing but is actually totally void of substance.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You are a fucking cunt, a fruitloon of the highest order, the lowest of life-forms known to man, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, now fuck off as you promised to do so.


You know what pisses me off about you? You just don't seem to be able to get off the fucking fence and say what you _really _mean.


----------



## The Octagon (Mar 16, 2018)

Stop. Engaging. With. The. Nutter.

You're giving him / her exactly what they want.

You can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into, it's like fighting on quicksand.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

The Octagon said:


> Stop. Engaging. With. The. Nutter.
> 
> You're giving him / her exactly what they want.
> 
> You can't argue someone out of a position they didn't argue themselves into, it's like fighting on quicksand.


But it's FUN!


----------



## The Octagon (Mar 16, 2018)

existentialist said:


> But it's FUN!



Or it shits up the thread.

Which is what it always does.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 16, 2018)

I find it entertaining to wind up the loonspuds even though I have a handful of them on ignore and so have to infer their presence and rants from the reactions of others. It's a bit like trying to establish the quantum state of the cat without looking inside the box.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

The Octagon said:


> Or it shits up the thread.
> 
> Which is what it always does.


TBH, if the likes of squirrelp are left to it, they shit the thread up all by themselves by interfering in the sensible debate going on. The more I've seen of antics like this, the more I believe that there really are only two options: a) banhammer, or b) outrageous piss-taking. You can't solve the fact that someone's shit in the corner of the room by going bonkers with the air freshener and pretend that there isn't a big pile of steaming turds there. You either clean the shit up, or you point at it and acknowledge that you're standing next to a midden.

ETA: actually, the mods' general approach of banning conspiratwats thread-by-thread is a pretty good one, on the whole. It clears the shit up without having to deal with the turdinators endlessly bleating about how the Illuminati are interfering with their right to defecate.


----------



## The Octagon (Mar 16, 2018)

Eh, I'd favour banhammer personally as some of that shit is vile and poisonous.

You're not winding them up tho, they're enjoying it too much.

But fair enough, have at it.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2018)

The Octagon said:


> Eh, I'd favour banhammer personally as some of that shit is vile and poisonous.
> 
> You're not winding them up tho, they're enjoying it too much.
> 
> But fair enough, have at it.


Oh, I know I'm not winding him up - but that's not the point. It's more about just using the idiocy as a vehicle for some creative pisstaking. Might as well use it for something...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 16, 2018)

its useful because the same shit - craig murray, the fireman picture - is all over social media and its good to have the ammunition to shoot it down. The loon spuds will jsut carry on - but there's plenty of other people who would be taken in otherwise. 

has this been posted? - a chemist exposes craig murry's bullshit

Unrolled thread from @deadlyvices


----------



## teqniq (Mar 16, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> ...has this been posted? - a chemist exposes craig murry's bullshit
> 
> Unrolled thread from @deadlyvices



Yeah I posted the original Twitter thread but this is better really and anyway posting it twice is cool especially for people who can't be bothered to read back.


----------



## spitfire (Mar 16, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> its useful because the same shit - craig murray, the fireman picture - is all over social media and its good to have the ammunition to shoot it down. The loon spuds will jsut carry on - but there's plenty of other people who would be taken in otherwise.
> 
> has this been posted? - a chemist exposes craig murry's bullshit
> 
> Unrolled thread from @deadlyvices



That's gold, I have some friends who are on the edge of the rabbit hole and this kind of thing is invaluable.

If anyone has any further links to Craig Murray debunking I'd be all ears. He seems dangerous because people take him seriously owing to his previous position. kebabking has smashed him in his usual, beautifully worded style but any links would be helpful.


----------



## Sprocket. (Mar 16, 2018)

2hats said:


> I find it entertaining to wind up the loonspuds even though I have a handful of them on ignore and so have to infer their presence and rants from the reactions of others. It's a bit like trying to establish the quantum state of the cat without looking inside the box.



The swine haven’t poisoned the cat now, surely!


----------



## teqniq (Mar 16, 2018)

Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 16, 2018)

the funny ( not funny) thing is the loons behave like they are the first to be loons, like they have original thought. and yet here we are with the tedium they present shitting on a thread that I found interesting until the loons ruined it. that's what fucks me off, a serious thread becomes loonspudded by loonfoolery instead of a decent discussion about the actual fucking real shit that is happening in the world and this forum actually has real people that can educate me about it, yet fucking cunts like squirrelp spew there vomit all over it. why isn't the cunt banned? editor ?


----------



## Humberto (Mar 16, 2018)

To what extent does the 'they can do what they like because we are a faded power' stuff become self-fulfilling? Who is to say they didn't fuck up in using this Novichock? An admittedly shallow take I know, but it could be that Putin's mob have played their hand too early. I can't see how they can benefit from having France, Germany and the USA reading from the same page.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 16, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Oh, it's Israel. Right.



Oh come on; who else?


----------



## phillm (Mar 16, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Oh come on; who else?



as said the 'posh' couple on Gogglebox 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...agent-russia-putin-mossad-giles-mary-1.460851


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

teqniq said:


> squirrelp  Which part of 'no other plausible explanation' don't you understand? Oh wait, silly me black is the new white.


I understand it perfectly - it means 'we've actually got nothing but we can't think why anyone else would do it'

(unless they are framing the Russians of course)


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

The French are framing the Russians


----------



## phillm (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> The French are framing the Russians



Israel is not yet in the finger pointing game.

Condemning attack on Russian double agent, Israel avoids vexing Kremlin


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> The French are framing the Russians


No.

either 1) the Russians did it
2) It's a 'conspiracy'

Do you need actual evidence in order to claim "the only plausible explanation (is that the Russians did it)"?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> No.
> 
> either 1) the Russians did it
> 2) It's a 'conspiracy'
> ...



You apparently don’t to claim it’s a conspiracy.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> No.
> 
> either 1) the Russians did it
> 2) It's a conspiracy
> ...


You've been done hook, line, and sinker, on absolutely every element of this and that idiot Murray has been blown to bits. You're making a massive arse of yourself.


----------



## T & P (Mar 16, 2018)

Salisbury is under a flight path. Has anyone checked for reports of chemtrails on the day? Just saying...


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> You've been done hook, line, and sinker, on absolutely every element of this and that idiot Murray has been blown to bits. You're making a massive arse of yourself.


I don't think so. Murray comprehensively took apart the chemist quoted earlier, Clyde Davies, you can read the full exchange on Craig's blog here. 

Bothered By Midgies - Craig Murray

from RT:



> Several MPs have retweeted claims that scientists at the British lab investigating the poisoning of ex-spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter are actually struggling to identify the source of the nerve agent used.
> Craig Murray, the former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan turned blogger, wrote on his website that scientists at Porton Down, the center responsible for identifying the nerve agent allegedly used in the attack against the Skripals, have failed to find evidence of Russian _“culpability.”_ He said a _“well-placed”_ source in the Foreign Office told him.
> 
> Murray added scientists had been_ “resentful”_ over the pressure put on them to prove the military-grade nerve agent is of Russian manufacture. The blogger’s comments and concerns were retweeted by Labour MP Chris Williamson, a frequent guest on RT, and the Scottish National Party’s Douglas Chapman.


MPs retweet claim that Porton Down scientists can’t identify nerve agent as Russian


----------



## phillm (Mar 16, 2018)

T & P said:


> Salisbury is under a flight path. Has anyone checked for reports of chemtrails on the day? Just saying...



Was also the home of notorious sailing paedo pm Edward Teeth - just saying....


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

This was particularly hilarious from the Davies = Murray spat: Davies confessing he had no proof whatsoever


----------



## Supine (Mar 16, 2018)

T & P said:


> Salisbury is under a flight path. Has anyone checked for reports of chemtrails on the day? Just saying...



 and  and


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 16, 2018)

It was the Jews again. Why do they keep getting away with it?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 16, 2018)

Anyone know what David Icke has to say about all this?


----------



## agricola (Mar 16, 2018)

T & P said:


> Salisbury is under a flight path. Has anyone checked for reports of chemtrails on the day? Just saying...



Its also the name of a type of steak in the Fallout game series, which also features - amongst other parallels with this case - a robot with an East London "Cockney" accident.  Oddly enough, before the Russian crisis blew up with Theresa May's ultimatum to the Russians, the Guardian had an article reporting that the original voice of HAL in 2001 was that of a Cockney.

Coincidence?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 16, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> This was particularly hilarious from the Davies = Murray spat: Davies confessing he had no proof whatsoever


He's absolutely right.

You should be banned from this thread now. You've had your fun but it's become completely ridiculous and disruptive.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 16, 2018)

I note you made no response to the question I posed in post #725, 'Spymaster'.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I note you made no response to the question I posed in post #725, 'Spymaster'.


There's no point in engaging with you. I've tried to do so politely and you've been hung drawn and quartered. You're the only person who doesn't think so, so now I'm just going to take the piss.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> There's no point in engaging with you. I've tried to do so politely and you've been hung drawn and quartered. You're the only person who doesn't think so, so now I'm just going to take the piss.


I suggest you are not answering because you have realised that the phrase "the only plausible explanation' is diplomatic code for 'let's exclude conspiracy theory' and not 'evidence has positively identified Russian involvement' which everyone has been extremely careful to imply but not actually say.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I suggest you are not answering because you have realised that the phrase "the only plausible explanation' really just means 'let's exclude conspiracy theory' and not 'evidence has positively identified Russian involvement' which everyone has been extremely careful to imply but not actually say.


I suggest you're talking bollocks and that it means exactly what it says.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

So you would consider a conspiracy theory 'plausible' in the first instance?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2018)

They've been told about the evidence and have reached the conclusion that the only plausible explanation is that Russia did it. Now fuck off.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> They've been told about the evidence and have reached the conclusion that the only plausible explanation is that Russia did it. Now fuck off.


If they had seen evidence linking the attack to Russia they would have said so unequivocally. What their statement means is "we are falling into line and will try to pretend that we have been provided with the evidence requested without actually saying so"

if we had evidence linking the attack to Russia, we'd have (also) said so unequivocally.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2018)

Fuck off.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

This has already unravelled: the question is at what point that will be officially admitted.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 17, 2018)

you are dancing in the shadows now.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> If they had seen evidence linking the attack to Russia they would have said so unequivocally. What their statement means is "we are falling into line and will try to pretend that we have been provided with the evidence requested without actually saying so"
> 
> if we had evidence linking the attack to Russia, we'd have (also) said so unequivocally.



Do you think every detail of the attack is going to be released? I'm imagining there's concerns over something called national security etc...


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 17, 2018)

Has anyone suggested that the daughter was in fact the target of the hit for her own activities, dad included because they knew she was asking him for advice due to his previous job?


----------



## stuff_it (Mar 17, 2018)

Ah, so they have...

https://nypost.com/2018/03/16/spys-daughter-was-the-real-target-in-poisoning-relative/


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2018)

agricola said:


> Its also the name of a type of steak in the Fallout game series, which also features - amongst other parallels with this case - a robot with an East London "Cockney" accident.  Oddly enough, before the Russian crisis blew up with Theresa May's ultimatum to the Russians, the Guardian had an article reporting that the original voice of HAL in 2001 was that of a Cockney.
> 
> Coincidence?


WAKE UP SHEEPLE!


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> This has already unravelled: the question is at what point that will be officially admitted.


Why don't you just pre-empt the inevitable thread ban  and fuck off? Along with that battered, tired old hobby horse you rode in on.


----------



## phillm (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> Anyone know what David Icke has to say about all this?



same as squirelp  ! Yes siree !

David Icke | ‘Premature’ to blame Russia for spy poisoning, Salisbury residents say


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I understand it perfectly - it means 'we've actually got nothing but we can't think why anyone else would do it'
> 
> (unless they are framing the Russians of course)


What kind of mental gymnastics to you have to indulge in to arrive at that conclusion you sad fuck?


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 17, 2018)

Oh dear, just heard on the Beeb R4 that the guy who worked on developing novichok agents thinks they could be made in the West; he did publish some formulas after all. They didn't appear to ask him if it was possible to look at a chemical and decide where it was made.


----------



## newbie (Mar 17, 2018)

Humberto said:


> To what extent does the 'they can do what they like because we are a faded power' stuff become self-fulfilling?


I'll plead guilty to that rather unpatriotic view, although I don't think reacting to an attack by considering the governments capacity to respond somehow provoked the attack, so I'm not accepting all the blame.  

Should we all, as a matter of course, always thrust out our chests and loudly proclaim the primacy of the British Navy, 'our' bestest WMDs, our fantastically clean and useful finance sector, the inclusivity, transparency and cohesion of our democracy and the adorability of the royal family. Perhaps we should all channel the Daily Express in order to make Putin think, _nah, not Britain, they're too bulldog_?



> I can't see how they can benefit from having France, Germany and the USA reading from the same page.


Don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm not expected to understand.  The message is not aimed at me and all the other know-nothing ordinaries.  I can't even properly speculate who it is aimed at. It might be the Russian electorate, but that's apparently already sewn up and Putin could engineer a bit of _enemy without_ in a far less convoluted way.  My guess is the intended audience is probably a tiny cohort of Russian and UK actors, those already engaged in whatever has been going on, those who would understand the message that Russia/Putin is very, very serious about something or other.

Unless, of course, me and most people are being spun towards convenient conclusions based on the old bogey-man principle, and there's an even more convoluted game going on involving players that only the freethinking squirrelly types have yet noticed.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Oh dear, just heard on the Beeb R4 that the guy who worked on developing novichok agents thinks they could be made in the West; he did publish some formulas after all.



At the risk of repeating myself for about the fifth time...

1. They could be made anywhere in minute amounts by suitably equipped graduate organic chemists. The problem is then: what next? Without suitable training, experience, discipline and shedloads of money to buy the right kit and facilities you have a huge problem handling and storing the result. (Translation = you will kill yourself).

2. Mirzayanov has stated he believes the material in this case originated from Russia.

3. The fact that Germany and France have got on board and even the Russians have now let it slip that DSTL have clearly identified the precise variant suggests they likely also have IDed precursors and scrubbers, impurities (fingerprints origin); no question that there is far more analytical information than is available in the public domain (gas chromatography mass spectrometry is a highly sensitive tool cf Craig Murray who is just a tool (who doesn't understand gc-ms analysis)).


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

23 British diplomats to be expelled from Russia. British Council to be closed in Russia. British consulate in St Petersburg to cease operations.

Source: Reuters


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 17, 2018)

> Mirzayanov said Putin likely chose to use a painful nerve agent to frighten other dissidents into silence.
> 
> “I was shocked,” he said. *“I never imagined even in my bad dreams that this chemical weapon, developed with my participation, would be used as a terrorist weapons.” *



So, just out of interest, what did Mirzayanov think a deadly and advanced toxin might legitimately be used for? Is he saying he didn't realise the Russian state wasn't capable of 'terrorism' while he worked on producing "tons" of a chemical weapon in secrecy?


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> At the risk of repeating myself for about the fifth time...
> 
> 1. They could be made anywhere in minute amounts by suitably equipped graduate organic chemists. The problem is then: what next? Without suitable training, experience, discipline and shedloads of money to buy the right kit and facilities you have a huge problem handling and storing the result.
> If,
> ...



So Mirzayanov has contradicted himself or been mis-reported. Can you point me to a source for the Russians letting stuff slip?

I do apologise that you have to repeat yourself but the thread is full of posts that aren't worth reading (variants of "You're a wanker" and "No, you are" and "I'm cleverer than you") so the interesting stuff is easily lost.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> So Mirzayanov has contradicted himself or been mis-reported.


I see no contradiction. He can state a conviction it was manufactured in and sourced from Russia whilst at the same time pointing out the availability of the level of technical skill needed to formulate a sample (does not equal handle, store, deliver, weaponise).


> Can you point me to a source for the Russians letting stuff slip?


Post 655: either (i) the British have given the Russians technical analytical results (directly or through the OPWC), or (ii) the Russians already know full well what was used, or (iii) the Russian Ambassador is fabricating (e2a: or (iv) the Russians have a spy inside the investigative process). Really only the first option makes sense (admitting (ii) or giving away (iv) wouldn’t be very smart).


> I do apologise that you have to repeat yourself but the thread is full of posts that aren't worth reading (variants of "You're a wanker" and "No, you are" and "I'm cleverer than you") so the interesting stuff is easily lost.


I find judicious use of ignore helps improve the signal-to-noise ratio.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> I see no contradiction. He can state a conviction it was manufactured in and sourced from Russia whilst at the same time pointing out the availability of the level of technical skill needed to formulate a sample (does not equal handle, store, deliver, weaponise).
> 
> Post 655: either (i) the British have given the Russians technical analytical results (directly or through the OPWC), or (ii) the Russians already know full well what was used, or (iii) the Russian Ambassador is fabricating (e2a: or (iv) the Russians have a spy inside the investigative process). Really only the first option makes sense (admitting (ii) or giving away (iv) wouldn’t be very smart).
> 
> I find judicious use of ignore helps improve the signal-to-noise ratio.


Have you looked at Murray's conversation with the chemist fellow? It doesn't seem to be a defence at all and concludes with Murray claiming victory because the chemist says that chemistry cannot prove beyond doubt where the agent was manufactured.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 17, 2018)

newbie said:


> Don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm not expected to understand.  The message is not aimed at me and all the other know-nothing ordinaries.  I can't even properly speculate who it is aimed at. It might be the Russian electorate, but that's apparently already sewn up and Putin could engineer a bit of _enemy without_ in a far less convoluted way.  My guess is the intended audience is probably a tiny cohort of Russian and UK actors, those already engaged in whatever has been going on, those who would understand the message that Russia/Putin is very, very serious about something or other.



yeah - whilst there are reasons why the russian state would want to do this and everything points to it being them - its still all a bit WTF?!? Its terrible PR for russia - and its a perverse act to carry out 3 months before they host a multi-billion pr exercise in the shape of the world cup. The gain to international shitstorm ratio seems well out of whack. 
When they grabbed Crimea, there was a clear strategic imperative which drove them to it - to allow the new Ukrainian regime to keep it would have been ceding control of the black sea to a western backed power. 
But this? Assuming it is the russians  suggests there is quite a high degree of paranoia, belligerence and dysfunction at the top of the regime. A deliberate, vicious act of intimidation that seriously ups the ante.  A horses head in the form of a nerve agent. Not a happy thought.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

Russian spy poisoning: chemist says non-state actor couldn't carry out attack


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 17, 2018)

another thought - I think the whole Iraq WMD debacle actually argues _against _all the "false flag" bollocks. After the fall of the regime - the USuk were desperate to turn up any evidence. After two years they fessed up and said "no - looks like there was nothing after all - soz". What was notable was that they made no attempt to fabricate evidence of an Iraqi WMD program.

This was a situation where, whilst the country was in chaos, they had complete control of the the state apparatus (institutions, infrastructure) with no outside checks and balances , they had most of the leading members of the regime under lock and key (and therefore easy to intimidate into bullshitting on their behalf) - and they still felt it was too risky to try and bullshit it.
If they couldn't/wouldn't do it them - with a clear opportunity and a massive motive - why on earth now - with much greater risks and far less of a reason?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 17, 2018)

So who else could it be.  
 shadowy deep state actors supporting May? can't see anyone do anything but laugh when asked to pull off a stunt like this to support this shambolic government?
  Anybody who wants to provoke a fight with Russia is batshit if May wanted a Falklands style fight Guatemala could be prodded into a fight or even better Venezuela attacking Guyana former British colony threatened by beasty commies  both can be given a sound thrashing by ghurkhas parades and medals for everyone

Russian Leadership being paranoid and dysfunctional say it's not true same, state jails opposition leaders journalists who dissent have a habit of dying attacked all its neighbours who arnt in NATO etc etc.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Have you looked at Murray's conversation with the chemist fellow? It doesn't seem to be a defence at all and concludes with Murray claiming victory because the chemist says that chemistry cannot prove beyond doubt where the agent was manufactured.


Where is this conversation to be found?

Fundamentally, there is no thing such as 100% certainty. Hence the legal terms “beyond reasonable doubt”, “balance of probabilities”. Conspiraloons thrive where the public are unable to make logical, critical assessments, on their inability to judge probabilities and make basic mathematical deductions, their ignorance of elementary physical laws.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> Where is this conversation to be found?.


Bothered By Midgies - Craig Murray


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> Where is this conversation to be found?



Here


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 17, 2018)

likesfish said:


> So who else could it be.
> <snip>



There was that guy who stole nerve agent from the facility in Uzbekistan before the Americans turned up to shut it down; it was used to kill a banker and his secretary.


----------



## newbie (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> Conspiraloons thrive where the public are unable to make logical, critical assessments, on their inability to judge probabilities and make basic mathematical deductions, their ignorance of elementary physical laws.


a lot of the discussion is about motive and geo-strategic politics, which is less amenable to scientific method.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Bothered By Midgies - Craig Murray


I see more incorrect (or is it disingenuous) statements from Mr Murray - he only references his own blog statements which were disproved upthread (re novichoks: “nobody had ever seen one”, um, apart from the US team that travelled to Uzbekistan to destroy stockpiles of such and decontaminate areas where it was tested some twenty years ago, apart from Mirzayanov).


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

newbie said:


> a lot of the discussion is about motive and geo-strategic politics, which is less amenable to scientific method.


But the starting point for loons is more often than not the ignorant or wilful misinterpretation of numbers, scientific/technical facts.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> There was that guy who stole nerve agent from the facility in Uzbekistan before the Americans turned up to shut it down; it was used to kill a banker and his secretary.


You forgot to provide a link to a source (let alone a credible source) for your first assertion.


----------



## agricola (Mar 17, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> another thought - I think the whole Iraq WMD debacle actually argues _against _all the "false flag" bollocks. After the fall of the regime - the USuk were desperate to turn up any evidence. After two years they fessed up and said "no - looks like there was nothing after all - soz". What was notable was that they made no attempt to fabricate evidence of an Iraqi WMD program.
> 
> This was a situation where, whilst the country was in chaos, they had complete control of the the state apparatus (institutions, infrastructure) with no outside checks and balances , they had most of the leading members of the regime under lock and key (and therefore easy to intimidate into bullshitting on their behalf) - and they still felt it was too risky to try and bullshit it.
> If they couldn't/wouldn't do it them - with a clear opportunity and a massive motive - why on earth now - with much greater risks and far less of a reason?



There wasn't any attempt to fabricate evidence per se, but lets not forget there were loads of stories that "proof" had been found and they went on past the invasion, past David Kelly's death and went on until the Yanks publicly admitted to their Congress that there weren't any WMD in Iraq.  It is hard to see where else those stories could have come from other than the Coalition governments, especially given the hacks involved.


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 17, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It was the Jews again. Why do they keep getting away with it?



Because they control EVERYTHING*

*But not on Saturdays.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> You forgot to provide a link to a source (let alone a credible source) for your first assertion.



No, I didn't forget. There's no source for two reasons -
1) I can't for the life of me remember where I got that from and the net is so full of this stuff now I'll probably never find it again
2) trying to guess which sources will be deemed credible here is a fool's errand

Even as a liar cannot always be telling lies, shite sources do sometimes tell the truth but sorting all that out is the work of an investigative journalist, not a bored bookkeeper.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> No, I didn't forget. There's no source for two reasons -
> 1) I can't for the life of me remember where I got that from and the net is so full of this stuff now I'll probably never find it again


If I can’t locate a source I don’t bother wasting time propagating the idea (it’s a fundamental when writing any scientific document for peer review).


> 2) trying to guess which sources will be deemed credible here is a fool's errand


Steering clear of the batshit loon fringe works for me.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

I think it is worth noting that

1) Mossad is certainly capable of carrying out assassinations
2) Israel and Russia are very much having a spat over Syria
3) The Mossad motto is _"by way of deception thou shalt do war"_
4) Israel is not signed up to the Chemical Weapons Convention and is believed to have a chemical weapons programme

of course none of this means that Israel is responsible but the possibility should not be discounted.


----------



## newbie (Mar 17, 2018)

2hats said:


> But the starting point for loons is more often than not


Jews


----------



## elbows (Mar 17, 2018)

By way of misconception thou shalt do bore.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I think it is worth noting that
> 
> 1) Mossad is certainly capable of carrying out assassinations
> 2) Israel and Russia are very much having a spat over Syria
> ...


So that's now at least 2 scientists quoted here, including one who worked on the agent, saying Murray is full of shit. His supposed defence is nothing of the sort, just froth and piss, you've misrepresented the French position, and now you're chucking up an Israel smokescreen.

Fuck off.


----------



## LDC (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I think it is worth noting that
> 
> 1) Mossad is certainly capable of carrying out assassinations
> 2) Israel and Russia are very much having a spat over Syria
> ...



Prick. Thick fucking nasty prick. You need banning now.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> 2) Israel and Russia are very much having a spat over Syria


I'm sorry what was that?

Israel Says It’s Counting on Putin in Syria, U.S. Isn’t in the ‘Game’



> Israel is counting on Russian President Vladimir Putin to keep confrontations with Iran and Syria from spiraling into war as the Trump administration mostly watches from the sidelines, a senior aide to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said.
> 
> “The American part of the equation is to back us up,” but the U.S. currently “has almost no leverage on the ground,” Michael Oren, Netanyahu’s deputy minister for public diplomacy and a former ambassador to Washington, said in a phone interview Sunday. “America did not ante up in Syria. It’s not in the game.”



Analysts: Israel’s headed to a war in Syria, and only Russia can stop it



> According to a new report by the International Crisis Group, a think tank and advocacy firm, the only figure able to prevent a full-fledged, bloody conflict between Israel and the Iran-led axis is Russia, which has emerged from the Syrian civil war as the sole remaining powerbroker.



I call bullshit.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

teqniq said:


> I'm sorry what was that?



<edited to remove link to unnacceptable site>


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

let's note that your links involve Netanyu makings demands of Russia, teqniq


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 17, 2018)

The Dawn of the Genesis Race – Alternative Creation Theory


> How do we know this is true? Because we still grow the very crops they supposedly selected even after 5000 years of continuous technological and agricultural development. We are asked to suspend disbelief and accept they also constructed the largest precision-engineered stone building the world has ever seen – the Great Pyramid of Giza – using only primitive hand tools and backbreaking labor. Something is obviously wrong with this picture.
> 
> Is it logical to assume our Earthly ancestors could (or would) have thrown together the agricultural revolution and then the entire civilisations of Sumer and Egypt out of whole cloth? No it is not; and neither do these suppositions represent sound science.
> 
> For those of us in the alternative history camp, one of the most fundamental questions we must impress upon the public and upon ‘official science’ is to ask where are the antecedents and precedents? Show us the slow Darwinian stages of development that official history presupposes. How can you explain the sudden appearance of genetically altered food crops and advanced engineering techniques at the onset of human civilisation?



The Zionist Brainwashing of America


> The Zionist neoconservative fascist ideology has been developed over many decades. American society has lived under a state of psychological siege for many years, as the slow indoctrination with the growing ideology has been carried out by agents of the new "Zion." We have constantly been bombarded, every minute of every day, with their psychological conditioning which has been meant to lead us into a state of helpless despair. In this hopeless condition, we would theoretically willingly surrender our individuality to the state controllers. We have literally been scared and "entertained" to death, so that we would give-up, roll over, and play dead. They wanted our surrender to be assured before they took the final steps to murder our democratic-Republic. The final step is the last act in the war on terrorism, the bombing of Iran. This is the critical step that is necessary in the Zionist plot to claim the "birthright" of the "chosen people," as promised to the true "Israel."



excellent source as always Nutbags. I'm pretty sure 'there are no sunglasses' name is a They Live reference, which fits.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Israel’s Fourth Generation Fighter Jet Shot Down by Russian S-200 Air Shield
> 
> about a month ago



And?

for all the Israeli state's faults, and they are many imo, their main fear in Syria is the Iranians and Hezbollah. The jet that was shot down was engaged on a mission against either both or one of those actors. Also lo and behold from your source:



> The Arabic-language website of Sputnik quoted the website of Aviation Analysis Wing as reporting that the Syrian air defense units targeted the modern Israeli F16 fighter jet by a S-200 missile defense system designed in soviet era in the 1960s.



So it was an old Russian made system supplied to the Syrians and not the Russians themselves.

Now enough of your vapid witterings please.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

teqniq said:


> And?
> 
> for all the Israeli state's faults, and they are many imo, their main fear in Syria is the Iranians and Hezbollah. The jet that was shot down was engaged on a mission against either both or one of those actors. Also lo and behold from your source:
> 
> ...


I don't see what we are disagreeing over. Israel just had one of their fighter jets taken out by Syrian forces with Russian assistance.

I repeat, none of this means for a moment that Israel was responsible. The point is that there are other state actors who may have the motive and means to carry out an attack like this and frame Russia for it.


----------



## happie chappie (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I think it is worth noting that
> 
> 1) Mossad is certainly capable of carrying out assassinations
> 2) Israel and Russia are very much having a spat over Syria
> ...



Conspiraloons like Murray and squirrelp:

1] Take a significant and contoversial world event.

2] State it’s a “false flag”.

3] Decide who benefits (usually the “Zionists*).

4] Identify who REALLY committed the act (the “Zionists” yet again).

5] Then look for any “evidence” to support their theory.

Of course, when no credible evidence emerges it’s because the MSM have covered it up (usually at the behest of the “Zionists”).

* Even they are too polite to say “Jews”.

And so on ad nauseam.

So you can never win an argument with a conspiraloon.

In fact I’ve never come across one who, when presented with solid and inconvertible evidence that their version of events is nothing more than complete and utter bollocks, has put his/her hand up and admitted they were actually wrong.

Arguing with them is akin to nailing jelly to the wall and so an equally futile waste of time and effort.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

happie chappie said:


> Conspiraloons like Murray and squirrelp:
> 
> 1] Take a significant and contoversial world event.
> 
> 2] State it’s a “false flag”.


Although neither Murray nor myself have said such a thing in this instance. I have not discounted the possibility that Russia is responsible. We don't know.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

teqniq

Russia deploys advanced stealth jets in Syria with warning aimed at Israel


----------



## LDC (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I don't see what we are disagreeing over. Israel just had one of their fighter jets taken out by Syrian forces with Russian assistance.
> 
> I repeat, none of this means for a moment that Israel was responsible. The point is that there are other state actors who may have the motive and means to carry out an attack like this and frame Russia for it.



Look at the graphics on that website you quoted if you can't manage to read the fucking drivel.

Fucking anti-semitic shit you cunt.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I don't see what we are disagreeing over. Israel just had one of their fighter jets taken out by Syrian forces with Russian assistance.
> 
> I repeat, none of this means for a moment that Israel was responsible. The point is that there are other state actors who may have the motive and means to carry out an attack like this and frame Russia for it.



Russia has supplied Syria with weaponry long before it became actively involved in the conflict, essentially Syria has been a client state of the Russians for years so the only thing that is surprising about the jet being shot down with an old Russian missile system is that the plane in question is of a type called 'fourth generation' and it's electronic countermeasures should have been able to defeat the missile.

I see you have backtracked somewhat in your edited post (I wonder why?) from the insinuation that Israel may have been responsible to 





> none of this means for a moment that Israel was responsible



well there's a thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I think it is worth noting that
> 
> 1) Mossad is certainly capable of carrying out assassinations
> 2) Israel and Russia are very much having a spat over Syria
> ...



1) So are lots of other people.
2) Presumably this is the bit that's supposed to imply a motive of some kind, pity it's not true.
3) Bunch of spies in 'sneaky buggers' shocker.
4) Lots of countries have access to chemical weapons.


----------



## peterkro (Mar 17, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> There was that guy who stole nerve agent from the facility in Uzbekistan before the Americans turned up to shut it down; it was used to kill a banker and his secretary.


Secret trial shows risks of nerve agent theft in post-Soviet chaos:...


----------



## klang (Mar 17, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Look at the graphics on that website you quoted if you can't manage to read the fucking drivel.
> 
> Fucking anti-semitic shit you cunt.


hook noses etc. truly nasty shit.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp

You are a vector for antisemitic bollocks. A dupe, a salmon that jumps on the hook for you.

Fuck off.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 17, 2018)

Not really in favour of bans but if someone is in the habit of posting up anti-Semitic links/sites, perhaps a stern warning might persuade them to desist in future?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 17, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Not really in favour of bans but if someone is in the habit of posting up anti-Semitic links/sites, perhaps a stern warning might persuade them to desist in future?



Other iterations of racism would not be treated so leniently, nor should they be.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 17, 2018)

eatmorecheese said:


> squirrelp
> 
> You are a vector for antisemitic bollocks. A dupe, a salmon that jumps on the hook for you.
> 
> Fuck off.


This


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> So, just out of interest, what did Mirzayanov think a deadly and advanced toxin might legitimately be used for? Is he saying he didn't realise the Russian state wasn't capable of 'terrorism' while he worked on producing "tons" of a chemical weapon in secrecy?


On the battlefield with the West possibly? Perhaps he meant that whilst a fully paid up member of the party in the 70’s and 80’s (when he worked on the project) he didn’t forsee his country engaging in acts of terrorism and/or otherwise dangerously irresponsible activities?


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Look at the graphics on that website you quoted if you can't manage to read the fucking drivel.
> 
> Fucking anti-semitic shit you cunt.


Oh there we go, criticism of the state of Israel, which happily practises apartheid and bombs children in hospitals, is 'anti-semitic'   ffs.


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Look at the graphics on that website you quoted if you can't manage to read the fucking drivel.
> 
> Fucking anti-semitic shit you cunt.


You mean this? 

 


And the first article I click on is full of this shit. 

 


_Fire the fucker into the sun._


----------



## IC3D (Mar 17, 2018)

Er because the USSR has no history of bumping people off 2hats


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

copliker

I hadn't checked out the rest of the site. That article you link is indeed totally unacceptable. I was responding to a personal accusation

take this daily star link for the same story instead although it doesn't mention the Russian missile used
On the brink of WAR? Tensions rise in Middle East as plane SHOT down


----------



## rekil (Mar 17, 2018)

Fuck off.


----------



## LDC (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> Oh there we go, criticism of the state of Israel, which happily practises apartheid and bombs children in hospitals, is 'anti-semitic'   ffs.



No you thunderously thick cunt, use of anti-semitic tropes and racist imagery is anti-semitic.

E2A, just seen the holocaust denial stuff on the site you posted. Just fuck right off.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

Craig Murray's latest blog post On Not Being Refuted - Craig Murray

**********

Several million people have now read my articles on the lack of evidence of Russian government guilt for the Salisbury attack. That’s over 300,000 unique visitors on this little blog alone so far, and it has been repeated on hundreds of sites all over the internet. My own tweets on the subject have been retweeted over 12,500 times and received 8 million impressions. I know that journalists from every mainstream media outlet you can mention have seen the material, because of numerous tweets from them none of which address any of the facts, but instead call me a “Conspiracy nutter” or variants of that, some very rude.

Yet what I wrote has not been refuted. It would be very easy to refute were it not true. The government would just have to say “Porton Down have stated that they have definitely identified the nerve agent as made in Russia”. They have not said that. Most extraordinarily, not one mainstream media “journalist” has asked a minister the question: “You keep using this phrase the nerve agent is “of a type developed by Russia”. Are you able to confirm it was actually made in Russia?” .

There is no excuse for this. Literally hundreds of mainstream media “journalists” have slavishly reproduced the propaganda phrase “of a type developed by Russia” without a single one of them every querying this rather odd wording, or why it is the government always uses that precise wording again and again and again.

It goes without saying that not a single mainstream media “journalist” has reported that fact either that until recently Porton Down believed that “novichoks” had probably never actuallybeen synthesised successfully and that the OPCW has never banned them on the grounds that there was no evidence of their physical existence.

Finally I wish to repeat these important facts:

1) Israel has major undeclared stocks of chemical weapons
2) Israel is one of a handful of countries, including North Korea, not to ratify the Chemical Weapons Convention and commit to destroy its chemical weapons
3) Israel is not a member of the OPCW and refuses to declare its chemical weapon stocks to the OPCW.

These are also facts you will never, ever see reported in mainstream media and entirely predictably the corporate lickspittles of the mainstream media have been out in force on socal media justifying their refusal to act on any of the information I have given on the grounds I am an “anti-semite”. A more extreme example of using any criticism of Israel to allege anti-semitism is hard to conceive.

The contribution of Jewish people to human development in fields including science, literature, music, art and commerce has been simply magnificent and utterly disproportionate to their numbers. The genocidal policy of Israel towards the Palestinians these last seventy years, and its rogue state status as regard chemical and nuclear wmds is a completely different question, for which I in no way blame the generality of Jewish people. In fact my position on this is the opposite of a BDS position. I actually want Israel to join OPCW, be a full member and cooperate in the destruction of its chemical weapon stocks.

I think I might now have a vodka. Of a type developed by Russia. Made in Warrington.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 17, 2018)

IC3D said:


> Er because the USSR has no history of bumping people off 2hats


Openly (to their own people) acknowledged by them, prior to 1990, with nerve agents?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Look at the graphics on that website you quoted if you can't manage to read the fucking drivel.
> 
> Fucking anti-semitic shit you cunt.


In my first look at the site I was concentrating on the text, I just went back and took stock of the graphics. Anti-semitic, yes. Good lord.


----------



## squirrelp (Mar 17, 2018)

teqniq said:


> In my first look at the site I was concentrating on the text, I just went back and took stock of the graphics. Anti-semitic, yes. Good lord.


okay my bad. In no way am I intending to promote that site I will delete it


----------



## tim (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> I think it is worth noting that
> 
> 1) Mossad is certainly capable of carrying out assassinations
> 2) Israel and Russia are very much having a spat over Syria
> ...



Neither, Presumably should Lichtenstein. Still, you can't have a, member proper conspiracy theory without a serving of antisemitism, can you?


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> okay my bad. In no way am I intending to promote that site I will delete it



Oh rly? What you didn't look at the graphics and draw some conclusions? You are either incredibly stupid or devious or perhaps both. Just fuck off eh?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 17, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Oh rly? What you didn't look at the graphics and draw some conclusions? You are either incredibly stupid or devious or perhaps both. Just fuck off eh?



Pretty sure we can rule out devious.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 17, 2018)

f16 is a thirty-year-old design depending on what mark of kits attached to it it might be up their with the best or be lagging behind the curve


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 17, 2018)

That’s a permanent ban now btw.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 17, 2018)

Seems that conspiracy theorists are usually the architects of their own downfall. I'm sure there's a lesson in it somewhere.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2018)

squirrelp said:


> copliker
> 
> I hadn't checked out the rest of the site. That article you link is indeed totally unacceptable. I was responding to a personal accusation


"You made me do it". Which compounds the original crime, IMO.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Oh rly? What you didn't look at the graphics and draw some conclusions? You are either incredibly stupid or devious or perhaps both. Just fuck off eh?


Well, TBF, it's classic conspiraloon - they'll grab anything that notionally supports the claim they're making, but their blinkers never let them consider the baggage that's riding alongside.

And people like squirrelp consider _themselves_ somehow morally superior to the rest of us???


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 17, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - whilst there are reasons why the russian state would want to do this and everything points to it being them - its still all a bit WTF?!? Its terrible PR for russia - and its a perverse act to carry out 3 months before they host a multi-billion pr exercise in the shape of the world cup. The gain to international shitstorm ratio seems well out of whack.
> When they grabbed Crimea, there was a clear strategic imperative which drove them to it - to allow the new Ukrainian regime to keep it would have been ceding control of the black sea to a western backed power.
> But this? Assuming it is the russians  suggests there is quite a high degree of paranoia, belligerence and dysfunction at the top of the regime. A deliberate, vicious act of intimidation that seriously ups the ante.  A horses head in the form of a nerve agent. Not a happy thought.



I think the problem is people see Putin as some cat-stroking criminal genius personally overseeing shit like this, whereas it's possible state actors/former state assets carried this out without direct authorisation for whatever reason (personal scores/mafia shit/business shit). Hence it doesn't necessarily need to be considered as a strategic move with carefully calculated motives ascribed to the whole state set-up. The method does however hint at some kind of 'sending a message' which leans heavily to state involvement (unless the victims had somehow got hold of the material themselves for their own purposes and mishandled it - that would be an interesting twist...)

I guess we'll eventually get more information about the victims and what they may have been mixed up in that will help make some sense of it all.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

The Skripal Poisonings and the Chance To Build A Left Foreign Policy


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 17, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> another thought - I think the whole Iraq WMD debacle actually argues _against _all the "false flag" bollocks. After the fall of the regime - the USuk were desperate to turn up any evidence. After two years they fessed up and said "no - looks like there was nothing after all - soz". What was notable was that they made no attempt to fabricate evidence of an Iraqi WMD program.
> 
> This was a situation where, whilst the country was in chaos, they had complete control of the the state apparatus (institutions, infrastructure) with no outside checks and balances , they had most of the leading members of the regime under lock and key (and therefore easy to intimidate into bullshitting on their behalf) - and they still felt it was too risky to try and bullshit it.
> If they couldn't/wouldn't do it them - with a clear opportunity and a massive motive - why on earth now - with much greater risks and far less of a reason?



By the time they admitted there were no WMDs they had achieved their objectives, so no need to risk bullshitting further.

Not that that situation is linked to this.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2018)

Interesting and perhaps predictable given Syria:


----------



## spikey_r (Mar 17, 2018)

this article posted by the now banned (well done Mods) squirrelP puts the "it's more important that people take the article and propogate it" than "viewed the article critically and thoroughly de-constructed it" into a bit more perspective....

his opening line "several million people have now read the artice....." probably about the same amount who read the s-n newspaper...by definition does that mean that they are informed!

mine might be a simplistic view, but he seems to believe his own lies and tries to elevate himself to the position of an authority on the subject!

(just to add i'm purely a reader of this thread. there are a load of well thought out responses/replies. thank you to all!)



squirrelp said:


> Craig Murray's latest blog post On Not Being Refuted - Craig Murray
> 
> **********
> 
> Several million people have now read my articles on the lack of evidence of Russian government guilt for the Salisbury attack. That’s over 300,000 unique visitors on this little blog alone so far, and it has been repeated on hundreds of sites all over the internet. My own tweets on the subject have been retweeted over 12,500 times and received 8 million impressions. I know that journalists from every mainstream media outlet you can mention have seen the material, because of numerous tweets from them none of which address any of the facts, but instead call me a “Conspiracy nutter” or variants of that, some very rude.


----------



## petee (Mar 17, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That’s a permanent ban now btw.



ah, so i can unignore him


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 17, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> By the time they admitted there were no WMDs they had achieved their objectives, so no need to risk bullshitting further.
> 
> Not that that situation is linked to this.



caused them a lot of political damage though.


----------



## Corax (Mar 17, 2018)

Does the fact that anti-semitic conspiraloons have jumped on it being Israel mean that the possibility that it _wasn't _Russia (but not necessarily Israel) should be discounted?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 17, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> caused them a lot of political damage though.



Neither Bush nor Blair were thrown out of office. Of course Blair can never again walk the streets like a freeman does, the despicable skid mark that he is.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 17, 2018)

the urkaine thing is _vaguely_ plausible at a considerable stretch - - shitting Russia's bed before the world cup - until you consider the russian reaction. If it wasn't putin and co, they would have been going mad pointing fingers.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2018)

Corax said:


> Does the fact that anti-semitic conspiraloons have jumped on it being Israel mean that the possibility that it _wasn't _Russia (but not necessarily Israel) should be discounted?


I would read nothing into the antics of fuckwit conspiraloons. Either way. They're irrelevant.

In fact, one of the most significant things about the way our fuckwit conspiraloons operate is the desperation of their desire to *be* relevant. I think squirrelp jumped the shark when he tried to equate the motivation for his responding on this thread with France's motivation for responding the way they had. That was, actually, somewhat chortlesome.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> the urkaine thing is _vaguely_ plausible at a considerable stretch - - shitting Russia's bed before the world cup - until you consider the russian reaction. If it wasn't putin and co, they would have been going mad pointing fingers.


As opposed to chortling. Hmm, what _is_ the Russian for "chortling"?

ETA: хихикает, apparently. "Giggling". It's quite onomatopeic.


----------



## elbows (Mar 17, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Neither Bush nor Blair were thrown out of office. Of course Blair can never again walk the streets like a freeman does, the despicable skid mark that he is.



Yeah I'd never describe Blairs removal as being thrown out, even though it shared some characteristics. As well as dwelling on his current status of some kind of death grin apparition, I believe there were some moments of humiliation and awkwardness during his exit. Having to provide a timetable for departure, having to grin and share an icecream with Gordon in public, although my memory may have hyped these things.

The main Bush humiliation I could dwell on would be that after he won reelection against Kerry, lots of people from the US held up signs on the internet apologising to the world. And then after the horrors of the Katrina response an even larger swathe of the US just wanted to move on and forget Bush existed. But now the swine gets a partial rehabilitation in his lifetime, due in large part to Trump horrifying people even more.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2018)

elbows said:


> Yeah I'd never describe Blairs removal as being thrown out, even though it shared some characteristics. As well as dwelling on his current status of some kind of death grin apparition, I believe there were some moments of humiliation and awkwardness during his exit. Having to provide a timetable for departure, having to grin and share an icecream with Gordon in public, although my memory may have hyped these things.
> 
> The main Bush humiliation I could dwell on would be that after he won reelection against Kerry, lots of people from the US held up signs on the internet apologising to the world. And then after the horrors of the Katrina response an even larger swathe of the US just wanted to move on and forget Bush existed. But now the swine gets a partial rehabilitation in his lifetime, due in large part to Trump horrifying people even more.



Nothing we in the UK can do about the Bush clan, Blair can be hounded to the day he dies and any attempt of his offspring to take office, a al Kinnock, needs to be robustly opposed. 

Sins of the father? Mustn’t be profited from.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 18, 2018)

Blair's kids will probably do very nicely out of his business dealings. No need to go into politics unless you have the ego and vanity thing going on.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 18, 2018)

After all the shitting over threads, but surprisingly not the cricket ones.. I'm still really enjoying this:


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 18, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Blair's kids will probably do very nicely out of his business dealings. No need to go into politics unless you have the ego and vanity thing going on.



Another prime case for sequestering his assets and those of his family. In fact probably no need to sequester, the proceeds of crime act should be able to deal with that murderous tossbag’s dosh.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 18, 2018)

russian ambassador is trolling on BBC claiming the British won't allow consulate access to the Russian in Hospital


----------



## 2hats (Mar 18, 2018)

likesfish said:


> russian ambassador is trolling on BBC claiming the British won't allow consulate access to the Russian in Hospital


Most likely they have both been kept in induced comas anyway.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 18, 2018)

So Novichok agents do exist;

Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents - Ezine - spectroscopyNOW.com

Sorry, spectroscopynow might be on the batshit loon fringe - no doubt someone with the power to decide on that will be along.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 18, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> So Novichok agents do exist;
> 
> Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents - Ezine - spectroscopyNOW.com
> 
> Sorry, spectroscopynow might be on the batshit loon fringe - no doubt someone with the power to decide on that will be along.


You think an online magazine about spectroscopy could be 'batshit loon'? (aka disagrees with the urban massive)

The article says that the Iranians managed to create novichoks under the overview of the OPCW last year in order to prove detection methods, they were then destroyed.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 18, 2018)

Boris on the Marr show via the Independent

Boris Johnson says UK has evidence of Russia stockpiling deadly nerve agent for assassinations


----------



## LDC (Mar 18, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> You think an online magazine about spectroscopy could be 'batshit loon'? (aka disagrees with the urban massive)
> 
> The article says that the Iranians managed to create novichoks under the overview of the OPCW last year in order to prove detection methods, they were then destroyed.



After posting that photo of the firefighter and suited up people as some kind useful contribution have you started engaging your brain before you post anything else on this subject yet?


----------



## newbie (Mar 18, 2018)

As part of the retaliation the UK expelled 23 diplomats, with our highly respected Foreign Secretary claiming this went “_far beyond what Vladimir Putin had bargained for. We have basically eviscerated his intelligence capabilities in this country for decades to come_."

While _eviscerated  _is a great word to drop into a statement, it does rather imply that when the Russia expels 23 British diplomats, it weakens the British intelligence capabilities in Russia for decades to come.  How clever is that?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 18, 2018)

newbie said:


> While _eviscerated  _is a great word to drop into a statement, it does rather imply that when the Rotten Ruskies expel 23 British diplomats, it weakens the British intelligence capabilities in Russia for decades to come.  How clever is that?


I think it is generally accepted in intelligence circles that the ability of the British to operate in Russia was far more restricted and hampered than that of the Russian mission in the UK, hence greater loss to the Russians in that respect.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 18, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> After posting that photo of the firefighter and suited up people as some kind useful contribution have you started engaging your brain before you post anything else on this subject yet?


If you want to address the subject of my posts feel free...otherwise fuck off. 



> (me)
> The article says that the Iranians managed to create novichoks under the overview of the OPCW last year in order to prove detection methods, they were then destroyed.





> (linked article)...The so-called ‘Novichok’ agents are a range of highly toxic nerve agents developed in the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 1980s. The literature on their spectral properties is sparse...The Iranian researchers synthesised five ‘Novichok’ agents, along with four deuterated analogues...The syntheses were carried out on a micro-scale in order to minimize exposure...The authors succeeded in synthesising and obtaining detailed mass spectral data on a series of unusual nerve agents. The data have been added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons’ Central Analytical Database (OCAD). It is important that such databases are as comprehensive as possible so that unusual chemical weapons can be unambiguously detected.


----------



## 2hats (Mar 18, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Boris on the Marr show via the Independent
> 
> Boris Johnson says UK has evidence of Russia stockpiling deadly nerve agent for assassinations


They are both wilfully, disingenuously skewing the facts (knowingly or through ignorance) - there are no chemical weapons, or ‘stockpiles’ of nerve agents as such [in CWC signatory countries]. What there are stored are the binary precursors and in amounts not sufficient to be notifiable under the CWC (up to 100g of schedule 1 nerve agents/precursors can be produced without declaration to the OPCW); novichok was, after all, created with the express purpose of circumventing the convention treaty, developed as a binary (Mirzayanov). So ambassadors can sit there and claim they have no stockpiles of such weapons/agents. The nerve agent only exists when the binaries are combined, either in a lab (for research, then destroyed, doesn’t keep well anyway) or in the presence of a targeted victim.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 18, 2018)

2hats said:


> They are both wilfully, disingenuously skewing the facts (knowingly or through ignorance) - there are no chemical weapons, or ‘stockpiles’ of nerve agents as such [in CWC signatory countries].



I believe it's called 'sexing it up'. Bizarrely.


----------



## agricola (Mar 18, 2018)

2hats said:


> They are both wilfully, disingenuously skewing the facts (knowingly or through ignorance) - there are no chemical weapons, or ‘stockpiles’ of nerve agents as such [in CWC signatory countries]. What there are stored are the binary precursors and in amounts not sufficient to be notifiable under the CWC (up to 100g of schedule 1 nerve agents/precursors can be produced without declaration to the OPCW); novichok was, after all, created with the express purpose of circumventing the convention treaty, developed as a binary (Mirzayanov). So ambassadors can sit there and claim they have no stockpiles of such weapons/agents. The nerve agent only exists when the binaries are combined, either in a lab (for research, then destroyed, doesn’t keep well anyway) or in the presence of a targeted victim.



That is true, though it (whether they have been producing / stockpiling it) is a bit of a moot point once it is actually used; then it is a clear breach of the CWC.


----------



## CRI (Mar 18, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Do you think every detail of the attack is going to be released? I'm imagining there's concerns over something called national security etc...


Clearly I have the right person/people on ignore.

WTF is the BBC regurgitating obvious Russian Government propaganda about the attack being a UK Government hit?  FFS, the Russian Government will insist it's the Clangers, or Bagpuss while plausibly denying responsibility with a nudge and wink.  It's not like the conspiraloons aren't already pushing this narrative, but the BBC as well?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 18, 2018)

CRI said:


> ... the Russian Government will insist it's the Clangers, or Bagpuss while plausibly denying responsibility with a nudge and wink.


Implausible deniability.


----------



## CRI (Mar 18, 2018)

agricola said:


> Its also the name of a type of steak in the Fallout game series, which also features - amongst other parallels with this case - a robot with an East London "Cockney" accident.  Oddly enough, before the Russian crisis blew up with Theresa May's ultimatum to the Russians, the Guardian had an article reporting that the original voice of HAL in 2001 was that of a Cockney.
> 
> Coincidence?


Believe me, you do not ever want to eat Salisbury Steak.  It's a vile, glutenous, gristly bit of meat of unknown origin in a smelly gelatinous gravy like substance.  It's either in a frozen TV dinner accompanied by equally vile potato derivatives and vegetables or you "boil in the bag" and serve with instant mash potatoes.  The mere mention of it made me shudder.  See also Vienna Sausages.


----------



## agricola (Mar 18, 2018)

CRI said:


> Believe me, you do not ever want to eat Salisbury Steak.  It's a vile, glutenous, gristly bit of meat of unknown origin in a smelly gelatinous gravy like substance.  It's either in a frozen TV dinner accompanied by equally vile potato derivatives and vegetables or you "boil in the bag" and serve with instant mash potatoes.  The mere mention of it made me shudder.  See also Vienna Sausages.
> 
> View attachment 130367



I have never had any, but the fact that they were still edible in 2287 has never made me want to try one.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 18, 2018)

its fine washed down with nukacola


----------



## CRI (Mar 18, 2018)

agricola said:


> I have never had any, but the fact that they were still edible in 2287 has never made me want to try one.


My mum probably had one somewhere in the bottom of her freezer from the 1970's when she died 8 years ago.

Seems it was invented in 1988 by Dr James Henry Salisbury - so nothing to do with the town in England.  But, an attack with frozen Salisbury Steak Dinners might be as good a way to take out spies as nerve gas.



> He believed vegetables and starchy foods produced poisonous substances in the digestive system which were responsible for heart disease, tumors, mental illness and tuberculosis. He believed that human dentition demonstrated that humans were meant to eat meat, and sought to limit vegetables, fruit, starches, and fats to one-third of the diet.



Died of food poisoning - was 82 mind, so good innings.

People are still eating this shit.  Vegetarians and vegans, look away now.


----------



## maomao (Mar 18, 2018)

Salisbury steak's just a hamburger with some sauce on top. I'm sure the frozen ones are pretty rank but a well made one sounds quite nice.


----------



## vanya (Mar 18, 2018)

All That Is Solid ...: 10 Points on Russia and British Politics



> Politics, like history, is full of irony. For all of May's posing, for all the ego massaging she received from Labour MPs, it is the case Jeremy Corbyn's position on Russia _is tougher_. Going down the international law route, working toward stronger international controls and enforcement of bans on chemical and biological weapons, and - what the Tories have hitherto resisted - a crack down on Russian money laundered through London and the crumbs eagerly scooped up by the Conservative Party in political donations, all these are more powerful and more forceful responses to Kremlin gangsterism.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 19, 2018)

Investigators from chemical weapons watchdog to arrive in UK - GOV.UK

Maybe the CW experts here can tell me why it will take OCPW a minimum of two weeks to adequately test this nerve agent when we could do it in days?


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 19, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Boris on the Marr show via the Independent
> 
> Boris Johnson says UK has evidence of Russia stockpiling deadly nerve agent for assassinations



"in the last decade" - fucking weasel.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 19, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> "in the last decade" - fucking weasel.


What's your issue with this?


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 19, 2018)

Would you trust Boris? 
He strikes me as a little bit like Trump and I don't mean the hair. He's got form for fabricating facts.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 19, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What's your issue with this?



It's a form of words designed to make you understand something that has not been said, in the same vein as 'of a type developed by Russia'.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 19, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Would you trust Boris?
> He strikes me as a little bit like Trump and I don't mean the hair. He's got form for fabricating facts.


I mean what's her problem with "in the last decade"?


----------



## 2hats (Mar 19, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> why it will take OCPW a minimum of two weeks to adequately test this nerve agent when we could do it in days?


That the OPCW is an intergovernmental body composed of diplomats as well as technical staff is possibly all one needs to know. Knowing how long their inquiries into events into Syria are taking and why might shed even more light (it’s been alluded to before on this thread).

e2a: They will probably send samples to multiple labs in different countries so that’s also going to drag out the testing, let alone publishing of results.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 19, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> It's a form of words designed to make you understand something that has not been said, in the same vein as 'of a type developed by Russia'.


In what way? They're saying that the Russians have been stockpiling chemical agents in the last 10 years. The CWC has been in place since 1997 so the implication is that they've been breaking it


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Mar 19, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> In what way? They're saying that the Russians have been stockpiling chemical agents in the last 10 years. The CWC has been in place since 1997 so the implication is that they've been breaking it



Did they spend two weeks stockpiling stuff or ten years? Was it last year or ten years ago? I think we're meant to understand that this has been ongoing for the past ten years.
Besides, if we knew about this I expect other states would have known - we do share intelligence - but the only significant group who didn't know was the OPCW who declared all Russian CW destroyed last year - (in the last decade).


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 19, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Did they spend two weeks stockpiling stuff or ten years? Was it last year or ten years ago? I think we're meant to understand that this has been ongoing for the past ten years.
> Besides, if we knew about this I expect other states would have known - we do share intelligence - but the only significant group who didn't know was the OPCW who declared all Russian CW destroyed last year - (in the last decade).


That's a very strange reading of what he said. 

Chizhov said 'we have not worked on or stockpiled chemical weapons'

Boris responded 'we have evidence that Russia has been developing and stockpiling Novichok within the last 10 years'.   

Clear as fucking day!


----------



## 2hats (Mar 19, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> the OPCW who declared all Russian CW destroyed last year - (in the last decade).


That’s correct. Chemical *weapons*. Not nerve agents. Not amounts permitted by the CWC schedules.

They declared as destroyed chemical *weapon* stockpiles that had previously been notified to them (as the treaty requires). Any weapons/agents, indeed precursors, that haven’t been notified weren’t part of that exercise. Subtle but important distinctions.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 19, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That's a very strange reading of what he said.
> 
> Chizhov said 'we have not worked on or stockpiled chemical weapons'
> 
> ...




"Russia’s ambassador to the EU Vladimir Chizhov had *denied* moments earlier on the same programme, *that his country had any nerve agents in its military arsenal, saying there are, “no stockpiles whatsoever”.
*
^^pretty clear too though...(from the same article quoted above)*
Boris Johnson says UK has evidence of Russia stockpiling deadly nerve agent for assassinations


*


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 19, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> "Russia’s ambassador to the EU Vladimir Chizhov had *denied* moments earlier on the same programme, *that his country had any nerve agents in its military arsenal, saying there are, “no stockpiles whatsoever”.
> *
> ^^pretty clear too though...(from the same article quoted above)
> *Boris Johnson says UK has evidence of Russia stockpiling deadly nerve agent for assassinations*



Why would you believe Russia over everyone else? They're famed for this kind of attack, they've (Putin) said that dissidents who slag off the state will "kick the bucket", the scientists who worked on the agents have said they believe Russia's involved, it's virtually impossible for non-state actors to develop, store, and deliver, such a weapon, etc, etc, etc ...


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 19, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Why would you believe Russia over everyone else? They're famed for this kind of attack, they've (Putin) said that dissidents who slag off the state will "kick the bucket", the scientists who worked on the agents have said they believe Russia's involved, it's virtually impossible for non-state actors to develop, store, and deliver, such a weapon, etc, etc, etc ...



I don't know who did this.
It is a very shoddy assassination attempt...and clearly whoever did it was not up to the standard of the Russian state. It could be anyone with links to Russia. Or it could be MI5 who the fuck knows for sure? Why use novochok at all? Its unstable. Could it have been used to point the finger directly at Russia?  It's a bit too obvious isn't it? Maybe it's Russia playing a double blind who knows....

I'd love to feel confidence in the UK government always telling the truth but history shows that they will and do lie when it suits them.

I don't know who is responsible.... I doubt that there is clear evidence that Putin actually ordered this assassination. In the end we may never know who is telling the truth.

I see May gathering her allies. Hopefully she will just impose some sanctions on Russia. I hope she does not drag the world into a war over this shit like Tony Blair did with his lies about WMD


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 19, 2018)




----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 19, 2018)

Spymaster said:


>





Ok ok.. 
The Russians did it ... they are the only ones with novochok and Putin is entirely responsible.

Happy now?


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 19, 2018)

Could someone link me to where Craig Murray has been discredited? I can't find the relevant info and am curious as to why some have taken him seriously.

(not a conspiraloon, it's just that people are quoting him elsewhere as if he's some kind of great holder of the truth...)


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 19, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> I don't know who did this.
> It is a very shoddy assassination attempt...and clearly whoever did it was not up to the standard of the Russian state. It could be anyone with links to Russia. Or it could be MI5 who the fuck knows for sure? Why use novochok at all? Its unstable. Could it have been used to point the finger directly at Russia?  It's a bit too obvious isn't it? Maybe it's Russia playing a double blind who knows....
> 
> I'd love to feel confidence in the UK government always telling the truth but history shows that they will and do lie when it suits them.
> ...


It is perfectly possible that both sides are being a little evasive with the truth on this. Politicians and all that


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 19, 2018)

“The European Union strongly condemns the attack that took place against Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury, UK on 4 March 2018, that also left a police officer seriously ill. The lives of many citizens were threatened by this reckless and illegal act. The European Union takes extremely seriously the UK Government’s assessment that it is highly likely that the Russian Federation is responsible.

“The European Union is shocked at the offensive use of any military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, for the first time on European soil in over 70 years. The use of chemical weapons by anyone under any circumstances is completely unacceptable and constitutes a security threat to us all. Any such use is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, a breach of international law and undermines the rules-based international order. The EU welcomes the commitment of the UK to work closely with the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in supporting the investigation into the attack. The Union calls on Russia to address urgently the questions raised by the UK and the international community and to provide immediate, full and complete disclosure of its Novichok program to the OPCW.

“The European Union expresses its unqualified solidarity with the UK and its support, including for the UK’s efforts to bring those responsible for this crime to justice.

“The EU will remain closely focused on this issue and its implications.”

EU offers 'unqualified solidarity' to UK over Russia toxin case


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 19, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> “The European Union strongly condemns the attack that took place against Sergei and Yulia Skripal in Salisbury, UK on 4 March 2018, that also left a police officer seriously ill. The lives of many citizens were threatened by this reckless and illegal act. The European Union takes extremely seriously the UK Government’s assessment that it is highly likely that the Russian Federation is responsible.
> 
> “The European Union is shocked at the offensive use of any military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, for the first time on European soil in over 70 years. The use of chemical weapons by anyone under any circumstances is completely unacceptable and constitutes a security threat to us all. Any such use is a clear violation of the Chemical Weapons Convention, a breach of international law and undermines the rules-based international order. The EU welcomes the commitment of the UK to work closely with the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in supporting the investigation into the attack. The Union calls on Russia to address urgently the questions raised by the UK and the international community and to provide immediate, full and complete disclosure of its Novichok program to the OPCW.
> 
> ...



Wait... is it some kind of dastardly plan to keep the UK in the EU?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 19, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Wait... is it some kind of dastardly plan to keep the UK in the EU?


That's what the conspiraloons on the Daily Fail believe...


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Mar 19, 2018)

reminds me of this: Russian troll struggling to be more bigoted than typical internet user


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 19, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Wait... is it some kind of dastardly plan to keep the UK in the EU?



It may be that the UK will be so grateful to the EU for their support in this troublesome time, that the government will ask the people to vote again, in the hopes that the people see how supportive the EU are in their time of need....and well...being part of something bigger is better when facing the Russian bear.


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 19, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> It is perfectly possible that both sides are being a little evasive with the truth on this. Politicians and all that




Yes, this. Given what's known**, it's surely much more logical to assume that both sides are dissembling. 

**and using the "why is this lying bastard lying to me?" rule 

Better that, than to think that because the UK Government have a long track record of secrecy/dissembling/lying, then therefore we shouldn't also accept that the Russian authorities are just as distrustworthy.

If you're going to distrust 'the authorities', don't be bloody selective about it.

(Plus all CTers are loonbats anyway   )


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 20, 2018)

Anyway, the elephant in the room: What are the chances of the two main victims surviving this and being able to provide an account of what did/might have happened?  I've not seen any media speculation on this, but I suspect their odds aren't great. What does this stuff do to people? I've heard major organ damage mentioned, is it likely to lead to severe brain damage etc. and render them useless as witnesses?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 21, 2018)

please can i have a link that shows how Craig Murray is a shitehawk and how they've been discredited? people posting his stuff as gospel
thanks


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 21, 2018)

was that the 2hats linked twitter feed where he crashed and burned when scientists took his stuff to task ?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 21, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> was that the 2hats linked twitter feed where he crashed and burned when scientists took his stuff to task ?


did see that, the one posted on CM's own site? will try that at first, ta


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 21, 2018)

ddraig said:


> please can i have a link that shows how Craig Murray is a shitehawk and how they've been discredited? people posting his stuff as gospel
> thanks


This is him making a cunt of himself in defence:

Bothered By Midgies - Craig Murray


----------



## ddraig (Mar 21, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> This is him making a cunt of himself in defence:
> 
> Bothered By Midgies - Craig Murray


ta


----------



## Supine (Mar 21, 2018)

He's under attack!

Massive Attack on This Blog - Craig Murray


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 21, 2018)

ddraig said:


> please can i have a link that shows how Craig Murray is a shitehawk and how they've been discredited? people posting his stuff as gospel
> thanks


He's not been discredited, they're are varying opinions.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 21, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> He's not been discredited, they're are varying opinions.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)




----------



## ddraig (Mar 21, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> He's not been discredited, they're are varying opinions.


think i'll take the opinions of posters I respect with track records and evidenced posts thanks


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 21, 2018)

ddraig said:


> think i'll take the opinions of posters I respect with track records and evidenced posts thanks


No problem.   You stick with the 'antisemitic conspiracy theorist loon' opinion.

It does go with the track records though, to be fair.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 21, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> No problem.   You stick with the 'antisemitic conspiracy theorist loon' opinion.
> 
> It does go with the track records though, to be fair.


wtf!?
I saw people posting elsewhere using CM as some kind of authority and remembered that they'd been discredited on this thread so asked for some evidence to give perspective/balance to the person who i knew posting elsewhere, that's it


----------



## rioted (Mar 21, 2018)

ddraig said:


> think i'll take the opinions of posters I respect with track records and evidenced posts thanks


Evidenced posts are in short order though. On both sides. But one side is rushing to conclusions.


----------



## Corax (Mar 21, 2018)

I don't see how this is to Russia's benefit, especially ahead of the WC. The state it benefits most, perhaps, is the USA.

Puncher & Williams, OTOH, both of who the UK authorities deemed 'suicides' look as Russian as wrestling a bear with your shirt off.

ETA: I've no idea who Murray is, and the thing I quoted is the only thing of his I've read. I'll deliberately refrain from diving down that or any other rabbit hole now.


----------



## DexterTCN (Mar 21, 2018)

ddraig said:


> wtf!?
> I saw people posting elsewhere using CM as some kind of authority and remembered that they'd been discredited on this thread so asked for some evidence to give perspective/balance to the person who i knew posting elsewhere, that's it


Why don't you just go and read his stuff yourself?   How can you get perspective without doing that?


----------



## Corax (Mar 21, 2018)

2hats said:


> I think it is generally accepted in intelligence circles that the ability of the British to operate in Russia was far more restricted and hampered than that of the Russian mission in the UK, hence greater loss to the Russians in that respect.


The Russians still have the likes of Abrahamovich at the top tables too. Who isn't a 'spy' at all. Nope.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 21, 2018)

Corax said:


> I don't see how this is to Russia's benefit, especially ahead of the WC.


Have you not read this thread, Cracksie?


----------



## Corax (Mar 21, 2018)

CRI said:


> Seems it was invented in 1988 by Dr James Henry Salisbury - so nothing to do with the town in England.  But, an attack with frozen Salisbury Steak Dinners might be as good a way to take out spies as nerve gas.


I think Roald Dahl wrote a short story about that.


----------



## Corax (Mar 21, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Have you not read this thread, Cracksie?


I've kinda shied away from it tbh, as it seems like a lot of what I have read has been unnecessarily vitriolic. I was hoping someone might point me towards a less... *barbed* precis.


----------



## tim (Mar 21, 2018)

CRI said:


> Believe me, you do not ever want to eat Salisbury Steak.  It's a vile, glutenous, gristly bit of meat of unknown origin in a smelly gelatinous gravy like substance.  It's either in a frozen TV dinner accompanied by equally vile potato derivatives and vegetables or you "boil in the bag" and serve with instant mash potatoes.  The mere mention of it made me shudder.  See also Vienna Sausages.
> 
> View attachment 130367




On the topic of edible horror, my chocoholic slavic  flatmate left several bars of this behind when she moved out 




Should I inform MI5  and Porton?


----------



## CRI (Mar 21, 2018)

tim said:


> On the topic of edible horror, my chocoholic slavic  flatmate left several bars of this behind when she moved out
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you *shudder* taste it?


----------



## tim (Mar 21, 2018)

CRI said:


> Did you *shudder* taste it?



Not on your nelly, the  bars are now sealed in two layers of Waitrose sandwich bags.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 21, 2018)

any way, Johnson has nailed it with his well considered remarks comparing Russia with nazi Germany today.

I could think of many, many ways to describe this but invoking the Nazi card WRT Russia is possibly the least tactful of any option he could have produced. This is the most senior representative of the UK on overseas matters speaking.


----------



## 2Mins (Mar 21, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> That's what the conspiraloons on the Daily Fail believe...


I haven’t read the whole thread. 
What do YOU believe?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

2Mins said:


> I haven’t read the whole thread.
> What do YOU believe?


bye


----------



## 2Mins (Mar 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> bye


Ok, but there’s no way Salisbury was a Russian attack


----------



## existentialist (Mar 21, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Why don't you just go and read his stuff yourself?   How can you get perspective without doing that?


I don't need to eat dogshit to know it's nasty.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 21, 2018)

2Mins said:


> I haven’t read the whole thread.
> What do YOU believe?



I want to believe


----------



## existentialist (Mar 21, 2018)

2Mins said:


> I haven’t read the whole thread.
> What do YOU believe?


I believe that you're a dodgy conspiraloon cunt. Hey, don't overreact - it's only what I believe!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 21, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I believe that you're a dodgy conspiraloon cunt. Hey, don't overreact - it's only what I believe!



come on, give him a chance, he may have something original and thought provoking to say


----------



## 2Mins (Mar 21, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I believe that you're a dodgy conspiraloon cunt. Hey, don't overreact - it's only what I believe!


Cunt? You sure about that?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 21, 2018)

2Mins said:


> Cunt? You sure about that?


Yup. I believe I am.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 21, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> come on, give him a chance, he may have something original and thought provoking to say


The force of my belief is not that strong...


----------



## 2Mins (Mar 21, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I believe that you're a dodgy conspiraloon cunt. Hey, don't overreact - it's only what I believe!



Hey Existentialist... Calling someone a “cunt” is the lowest of the low, man.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 21, 2018)

2Mins said:


> Ok, but there’s no way Salisbury was a Russian attack


That's exactly what I've been saying but it's like banging your head against a wall with this lot.


----------



## 2Mins (Mar 22, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That's exactly what I've been saying but it's like banging your head against a wall with this lot.



I assume you’re taking the piss but I genuinely believe this is propaganda.


----------



## 2Mins (Mar 22, 2018)

existentialist said:


> The force of my belief is not that strong...


What’s that? Some silly Star Wars shit?
I ask again. Cunt?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 22, 2018)

enough of the hold me back lads posturing

tell us what you know


----------



## existentialist (Mar 22, 2018)

2Mins said:


> What’s that? Some silly Star Wars shit?
> I ask again. Cunt?


Yeah. It's like, y'know, this word. Like, say, "tinfoil".


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> any way, Johnson has nailed it with his well considered remarks comparing Russia with nazi Germany today.
> 
> I could think of many, many ways to describe this but invoking the Nazi card WRT Russia is possibly the least tactful of any option he could have produced. This is the most senior representative of the UK on overseas matters speaking.



It looks like Labour's Ian Austin originally made the comparison, and Bojo just agreed. 



> Johnson was speaking to the all-party foreign affairs select committee and responding to remarks from the Labour MP Ian Austin, who called for England to pull out of the World Cup altogether. “Putin is going to use it in the way Hitler used the 1936 Olympics,” Austin said.
> 
> Johnson replied: “I think that your characterisation of what is going to happen in Moscow, the World Cup, in all the venues – yes, I think the comparison with 1936 is certainly right. It is an emetic prospect of Putin glorying in this sporting event”.



Boris Johnson compares Russian World Cup to Hitler's 1936 Olympics


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 22, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That's exactly what I've been saying but it's like banging your head against a wall with this lot.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 22, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> any way, Johnson has nailed it with his well considered remarks comparing Russia with nazi Germany today.
> 
> I could think of many, many ways to describe this but invoking the Nazi card WRT Russia is possibly the least tactful of any option he could have produced. This is the most senior representative of the UK on overseas matters speaking.



He should stick to stuff like the Irish border. Oh, wait...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 22, 2018)

2Mins said:


> I assume you’re taking the piss but I genuinely believe this is propaganda.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Mar 22, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 130639



Just need newsnight to photoshop corbyn's face onto the lamb's head.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 22, 2018)




----------



## Corax (Mar 22, 2018)

2Mins said:


> Hey Existentialist... Calling someone a “cunt” is the lowest of the low, man.


No it's not.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 22, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> any way, Johnson has nailed it with his well considered remarks comparing Russia with nazi Germany today.
> 
> I could think of many, many ways to describe this but invoking the Nazi card WRT Russia is possibly the least tactful of any option he could have produced. This is the most senior representative of the UK on overseas matters speaking.



He's a Muppet. 
He's the English version of Donald Trump.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 22, 2018)

the copper lives
Policeman discharged after Salisbury attack


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 22, 2018)

I might be quite pleased if there was proof that this was a false flag op by HM Govt since it would show a degree of planning and foresight that there is zero evidence of whatsoever in anything else they do.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 22, 2018)

Sergei and Yulia Skripal may have brain damage after nerve agent attack


----------



## tim (Mar 22, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Sergei and Yulia Skripal may have brain damage after nerve agent attack


Russian oligarch owned rag tells us the blatantly obvious


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 23, 2018)

2Mins said:


> I haven’t read the whole thread.
> What do YOU believe?



I believe returning banned posters are amusing for all of 5 minutes.


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2018)

Still no proof apparently, but the diplomatic escalation continues

Spy poisoning: Russian diplomats expelled across US and Europe


> The United States and its European allies are expelling dozens of Russian diplomats in a co-ordinated response to the poisoning of a former Russian spy in the UK. It is said to be the largest collective expulsion of Russian intelligence officers in history.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 26, 2018)

No proof - lol.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2018)

US:

"On March 4, Russia used a military-grade nerve agent to attempt to murder a British citizen and his daughter in Salisbury. "This attack on our Ally the United Kingdom put countless innocent lives at risk and resulted in serious injury to three people, including a police officer."'

That's further than what the UK said isn't it?


----------



## andysays (Mar 26, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> "On March 4, Russia used a military-grade nerve agent to attempt to murder a British citizen and his daughter in Salisbury. "This attack on our Ally the United Kingdom put countless innocent lives at risk and resulted in serious injury to three people, including a police officer."'
> 
> That's further than what the Uk said isn't it?



I'm pretty sure it is. Also from the article


> EU leaders agreed last week it was highly likely Russia was behind the nerve-agent poisoning



As far as I know, UKGov hasn't really gone beyond that either


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2018)

I should have said that was the US.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 26, 2018)

IC3D said:


> Assassination drones called Maybots could crush our enemy's in the Kremlin and be useful clout in brexit negotiations


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 26, 2018)

The moor was quiet now.


----------



## T & P (Mar 27, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Sergei and Yulia Skripal may have brain damage after nerve agent attack


Obviously I have fuck all medical knowledge about nerve agent effects but I fear the longer this man and his daughter remain in a coma, the grimier their prospects are.

Many have opined that the failure to kill them right away was a botched assassination. Perhaps the intention all along was to leave them brain damaged/ in a vegetative state, which might be considered a far worse fate for them and their relatives


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2018)

Spoiler: Wilfully ignorant conjecture






MickiQ said:


> I might be quite pleased if there was proof that this was a false flag op by HM Govt since it would show a degree of planning and foresight that there is zero evidence of whatsoever in anything else they do.


This is one of the very least likely possibilities IMO. Top, for me - based on nothing more than sweet unbridled intuition - aren't the Russian state but instead either a private vigilante group (most likely with the tacit approval of Moscow admittedly) or the yanks. I've no idea how the fuck anyone's trying to pin it on Israel (and again, I don't really want to look) other than that they are very adept with chemical warfare, and the usual _*TEH JOOZ DID IT !!!ELEVEN!!!!!!*_ thing.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 27, 2018)

Corax said:


> Spoiler: Wilfully ignorant conjecture
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the very least likely possibilities IMO. Top, for me - based on nothing more than sweet unbridled intuition - aren't the Russian state but instead either a private vigilante group (most likely with the tacit approval of Moscow admittedly) or the yanks. I've no idea how the fuck anyone's trying to pin it on Israel (and again, I don't really want to look) other than that they are very adept with chemical warfare, and the usual _*TEH JOOZ DID IT !!!ELEVEN!!!!!!*_ thing.


Well you’re right about the ignorant bit. This is quite possibly the most stupid post I’ve ever seen you make and only a step or two away from what that Squirrel tit got banned for.

_Read_ some stuff about this before posting any more. You’re in tinfoil territory and just making shit up.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 27, 2018)

Over 100 Russian diplomats now expelled by 23 countries. 

It’s a global conspiracy against Russia!!!!


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2018)




----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Well you’re right about the ignorant bit. This is quite possibly the most stupid post I’ve ever seen you make and only a step or two away from what that Squirrel tit got banned for.
> 
> _Read_ some stuff about this before posting any more. You’re in tinfoil territory and just making shit up.


Hence the spoiler


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 27, 2018)

Corax said:


> Hence the spoiler


Yeah, that probably came across ruder than I meant it to. I was grumpy at Heathrow after getting up at 3.30am. The point stands but apologies for the tone.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 27, 2018)

Corax said:


> Spoiler: Wilfully ignorant conjecture
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the very least likely possibilities IMO. Top, for me - based on nothing more than sweet unbridled intuition - aren't the Russian state but instead either a private vigilante group (most likely with the tacit approval of Moscow admittedly) or the yanks. I've no idea how the fuck anyone's trying to pin it on Israel (and again, I don't really want to look) other than that they are very adept with chemical warfare, and the usual _*TEH JOOZ DID IT !!!ELEVEN!!!!!!*_ thing.


You're building a conspiraloon theory on the basis of me cracking a joke, that's actually slightly disturbing


----------



## Corax (Mar 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah, that probably came across ruder than I meant it to. I was grumpy at Heathrow after getting up at 3.30am. The point stands but apologies for the tone.


Taken in good spirit.


MickiQ said:


> You're building a conspiraloon theory on the basis of me cracking a joke, that's actually slightly disturbing


I know full well I *ought* to read up more, but I also know that this time next week I'll be a lay expert on nerve agent synthesis techniques if I go down that road.

The yank angle is definitely Alex Jones territory, but I'm surprised the *private* Russian group is dismissed with the same keystroke. It would seem an eminently sensible way for Russia to conduct its affairs, able to legitimately deny any official involvement.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 27, 2018)

ague 





Corax said:


> Taken in good spirit.
> 
> I know full well I *ought* to read up more, but I also know that this time next week I'll be a lay expert on nerve agent synthesis techniques if I go down that road.
> 
> The yank angle is definitely Alex Jones territory, but I'm surprised the *private* Russian group is dismissed with the same keystroke. It would seem an eminently sensible way for Russia to conduct its affairs, able to legitimately deny any official involvement.


OK there's too much weirdness in this thread for me to hang around after this post, but even if the actual agent who sprayed the nerve agent was an outsourced contractor rather than a full time KGB agent this was done by the Russian government on Putin's order because if it was done against his orders there will be headless bodies fished out of the Moskva, these are dangerous people and Putin is the most dangerous of the lot. 
The Russian govenment has both history and form for this and plenty of motive to do it, No one else has any reason to do this other than some vague conspiraloon talk about 'discrediting Russia' except that Russia has no credibility in cases like this.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 27, 2018)

Corax said:


> It would seem an eminently sensible way for Russia to conduct its affairs, able to legitimately deny any official involvement.



Losing control over the nerve agent stock which they’re not supposed to have would make them look incompetent; as opposed to looking deadly efficient whilst arrogantly denying involvement.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 27, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Over 100 Russian diplomats now expelled by 23 countries.
> 
> It’s a global conspiracy against Russia!!!!


_globalist _please. You have to have the whistles in there


----------



## CRI (Mar 27, 2018)

On a related note, 

Christopher Steele's Other Report: A Murder In Washington



> The FBI possesses a secret report asserting that Vladimir Putin’s former media czar was beaten to death by hired thugs in Washington, DC — directly contradicting the US government’s official finding that Mikhail Lesin died by accident.





> The report, according to four sources who have read all or parts of it, was written by the former British intelligence agent Christopher Steele . . . The bureau received his report while it was helping the Washington, DC, Metropolitan Police Department investigate the Russian media baron’s death, the sources said.





> All four of the people who read Steele’s report said it pins Lesin’s murder on a professional relationship gone lethally awry. According to the report, they said, Lesin fell out with a powerful oligarch close to Putin. Wanting to intimidate Lesin, the oligarch then contracted with Russian state security agents to beat up Lesin, the report states, according to three of the sources. The goal was not to kill Lesin, all four sources said Steele wrote, but Lesin died from the attack.









The above found here.


----------



## Corax (Mar 28, 2018)

Skripals poisoned from front door of Salisbury home, police say

Zoom right in on the photo of the front door. See the lock? That's a Yale - like the _*American* _university.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2018)

Corax said:


> Zoom right in on the photo of the front door. See the lock? That's a Yale - like the _*American* _university.



Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 29, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> wink, wink,



No, they’re German. 

Winkhaus door locking system


----------



## Indeliblelink (Mar 29, 2018)

The daughter is "improving rapidly" and no longer in critical condition.
Ex-Russian spy's daughter 'improving rapidly'


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 30, 2018)

Indeliblelink said:


> The daughter is "improving rapidly" and no longer in critical condition.
> Ex-Russian spy's daughter 'improving rapidly'



That article has been updated in line with coverage on BBC Breakfast this morning, to say she's is conscious and talking.

Ex-spy's daughter 'conscious and talking'


----------



## CRI (Mar 30, 2018)

Perhaps to take her some tea?


----------



## T & P (Mar 31, 2018)

CRI said:


> Perhaps to take her some tea?
> 
> 
> View attachment 131493


Or sushi.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Mar 31, 2018)

They merely wish to thank her for the 14 000 votes she cast for Vladimir Putin last week despite clearly extenuating circumstances


----------



## Corax (Mar 31, 2018)

Okay, so if it is the Russians - which I'll accept even though I think it was most likely to be a private vigilante lot albeit with Putin's approval - it still just seems unfathomably _stupid_.

He was no ongoing threat, had pretty much distanced himself from politics IIUC.
Doing in a swapped spy fucks any hopes current operatives might have of a clean break.
In which case  just what was it he was about about to talk about that Moscow were oh so twitched over?
Why not at least wait until after their World Cup?
So was he still working after all? And if so, what on exactly?
Unfortunately the most *reliable* source I've found discussing this kind of thing is Business Insider, which I muted off my twitter and flipboard ages ago for being pure unmitigated bollocks.


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Mar 31, 2018)

People tweeting London Economic article that alleges a source claiming Skirpal was investigating (freelance? For who?) an oligarch linked Internet Research Agency and its relationship to Cambridge Analytica, IAQ, SCL etc
Why the Cambridge Analytica scandal could be much more serious than you think:


----------



## Supine (Mar 31, 2018)

The John Oliver show had a clip of Putin saying something along the lines of ‘if a person poisons this country they can expect to be poisoned’. Not sure if the exact wording but is was a bit of a WTF moment watching it


----------



## Corax (Apr 1, 2018)

*EU To Field Team In World Cup In Solidarity Against Russia That Could Knock Out England*

What the actual fuck? This is reads like a total wind up.


----------



## fishfinger (Apr 1, 2018)

Well, it is April fool's day


----------



## Corax (Apr 1, 2018)

fishfinger said:


> Well, it is April fool's day


So it is... 

Well spotted


----------



## Bingo (Apr 3, 2018)

Just spotted this squirrelled away halfway down the Beeb's News page...

Source of nerve agent 'not identified '


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 3, 2018)

Bingo said:


> Just spotted this squirrelled away halfway down the Beeb's News page...



What strange internet you must have. It's no.1 on the BBC page I'm looking at.


----------



## Bingo (Apr 3, 2018)

Not on mine? Oh well.


----------



## binka (Apr 3, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> What strange internet you must have. It's no.1 on the BBC page I'm looking at.


Just so people don't think Bingo's a bullshitter it's the 9th story down on the BBC news homepage for me


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 3, 2018)

1 							Russian spy: Source of nerve agent 'not identified' 						 
  							2 							Half of European flights delayed due to system failure 						 
  							3 							Duke of Edinburgh admitted to


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 3, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> 1							 Russian spy: Source of nerve agent 'not identified'
> 2							 Half of European flights delayed due to system failure
> 3							 Duke of Edinburgh admitted to



Number 3 finishes off "casual sex with donkey" btw.


----------



## binka (Apr 3, 2018)

#1 for me is that girl who was shot in London, then Phil's donkey bothering then delayed flights


----------



## Corax (Apr 3, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> 1							 Russian spy: Source of nerve agent 'not identified'
> 2							 Half of European flights delayed due to system failure
> 3							 Duke of Edinburgh admitted to


1 - Ferne McCann’s ex-boyfriend Charlie Sims ENGAGED: TOWIE star pops the question to new girlfriend three years after split
2 - Katie Price reveals she’s driving a pimped out mobility scooter after being banned from the roads
3 - Love Island's Marcel Somerville reveals his top tips for spicing things up in the bedroom and what to do when SEX gets boring


----------



## planetgeli (Apr 3, 2018)

Corax said:


> 1 - Ferne McCann’s ex-boyfriend Charlie Sims ENGAGED: TOWIE star pops the question to new girlfriend three years after split
> 2 - Katie Price reveals she’s driving a pimped out mobility scooter after being banned from the roads
> 3 - Love Island's Marcel Somerville reveals his top tips for spicing things up in the bedroom and what to do when SEX gets boring



Wot no donkeys? Strange internet all round.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 3, 2018)

1 girl shot dead
2 phil the greek in hospitol
3 flights delayed


----------



## moochedit (Apr 3, 2018)

Corax said:


> 1 - Ferne McCann’s ex-boyfriend Charlie Sims ENGAGED: TOWIE star pops the question to new girlfriend three years after split
> 2 - Katie Price reveals she’s driving a pimped out mobility scooter after being banned from the roads
> 3 - Love Island's Marcel Somerville reveals his top tips for spicing things up in the bedroom and what to do when SEX gets boring



Cookies saved on your pc or phone. They know the kind of stories you like to click on


----------



## moochedit (Apr 3, 2018)

binka said:


> #1 for me is that girl who was shot in London, then Phil's donkey bothering then delayed flights


Snap!


----------



## nuffsaid (Apr 4, 2018)

Corax said:


> Okay, so if it is the Russians - which I'll accept even though I think it was most likely to be a private vigilante lot albeit with Putin's approval - it still just seems unfathomably _stupid_.
> 
> He was no ongoing threat, had pretty much distanced himself from politics IIUC.
> Doing in a swapped spy fucks any hopes current operatives might have of a clean break.
> ...



Well it could have been just a mopping up exercise which Putin didn't really think we'd care much about. We've accepted far too much dirty oligarch money over the years Putin probably thought, "yeah, go ahead, the UK like to launder our money we can do what we want over there." The UK Govt. should've kicked off more when Litvinenko was assassinated. Although I agree that waiting until after the World Cup would have been a wiser option.

If not that then your last bullet point seems most likely - and we might never know.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 4, 2018)

Labour going on the offensive over the government's novichok claims, government sticking to its guns that no misleading statements have been made despite the fact that the Foreign Office has now deleted tweets on the subject.


----------



## agricola (Apr 4, 2018)

J Ed said:


> Labour going on the offensive over the government's novichok claims, government sticking to its guns that no misleading statements have been made despite the fact that the Foreign Office has now deleted tweets on the subject.




The ability of this Government to shoot itself in the foot over any issue is something to be cherished.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 4, 2018)

It is indeed but all the while they have a largely sympathetic fawning media at their disposal it doesn't amount to anything seriously damaging.


----------



## elbows (Apr 4, 2018)

teqniq said:


> It is indeed but all the while they have a largely sympathetic fawning media at their disposal it doesn't amount to anything seriously damaging.



I cant help but get extra groans out of this scenario and some of the language detail. Because last decade we sat through a long mainstream fixation with the whole dodgy dossier/sexed up/kelly aspect of Iraq. The somewhat different context this time obviously makes a difference, and the full statement from the Porton Down bloke is a fair bit more careful than selective quotes of it might suggest. eg a phrase such as 'piece together the conclusions' could be taken in a different way if the context was an already discredited piece of war propaganda. Several government statements have clearly not been so careful or considered the tedious lessons of last decade. I cant say I'm surprised.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 4, 2018)

It’s wiff waff with words. 

They still fucking did it.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 4, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It’s wiff waff with words.
> 
> They still fucking did it.



They almost certainly did do it, but the government also clearly lied.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 4, 2018)

J Ed said:


> They almost certainly did do it, but the government also clearly lied.


Did they fuck. They’ve certainly been careless. Some govt dink at PD has said ‘looks like the Russians’ Boris has gone off “it’s the Russians, it’s the Russians!” Half cocked, perhaps. But it’s a diversion.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 4, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Did they fuck. They’ve certainly been careless. Some govt dink at PD has said ‘looks like the Russians’ Boris has gone off “it’s the Russians, it’s the Russians!” Half cocked, perhaps. But it’s a diversion.



No, they lied about something very specific and have realised the seriousness of that which is why we are getting the tweet deletion and so on.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 4, 2018)

J Ed said:


> No, they lied about something very specific and have realised the seriousness of that which is why we are getting the tweet deletion and so on.



This bit? 



> Asked how the UK had been able to find out the novichok originated from Russia so quickly, he replied: “When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory, they were absolutely categorical. I asked the guy myself, I said: ‘Are you sure?’ And he said: ‘There’s no doubt.’ So we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken.”
> 
> The Russians immediately seized on Aitkenhead’s comments.
> 
> ...


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 4, 2018)

Russia now wanting to join the UK in a joint investigation, the piss taking bastards.


----------



## StigoftheDig (Apr 4, 2018)

If he weren't there as part of some deal to keep the Tory party together over Brexit he ought to resign because it's pretty clear that he's lied.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 4, 2018)

Corax said:


> *EU To Field Team In World Cup In Solidarity Against Russia That Could Knock Out England*
> 
> What the actual fuck? This is reads like a total wind up.




Tbf a scatch unrbanite team could probably knock out the england team


----------



## elbows (Apr 4, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Did they fuck. They’ve certainly been careless. Some govt dink at PD has said ‘looks like the Russians’ Boris has gone off “it’s the Russians, it’s the Russians!” Half cocked, perhaps. But it’s a diversion.



Whether you want to think of it as carelessness, lies or diversion, even the bbcs very diplomatic correspondent knows some of the consequences. As for wiff waff with words, I referred to my own eventual tedium with the mainstream fixation on this front in regards Iraq already. Plus there are usually surreal aspects to mainstream fallouts about propaganda accuracy, given the array of propaganda we face every day and variable attitudes towards valuing its accuracy. In any case much propaganda could be dismissed as wiff waff words so I'm not inclined to brush it off so lightly, even when it seems like a silly aside. 



> BBC diplomatic correspondent James Landale said Mr Johnson's "loose language" plus the deleted tweet represented a "self-inflicted wound" by the UK.
> 
> This had "muddied the waters" and allowed Russia to cast doubt on the UK's assessment, he said - but he added that the "international alliance" supporting the UK's position was "still holding".



Row over Johnson's Salisbury response


----------



## elbows (Apr 4, 2018)

Also in the above, Boris takes the 'best form of defence is attack' approach.



> Boris Johnson has hit back at Jeremy Corbyn's criticism of his response to the Salisbury nerve agent attack - accusing the Labour leader of siding "with the Russian spin machine".


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 4, 2018)

A lot of posters on this thread look fucking stupid now.

Or like tory sock-puppets, which is just as likely.


----------



## nuffsaid (Apr 4, 2018)

I say we go home and take our ball with us...


----------



## StigoftheDig (Apr 4, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> What strange internet you must have. It's no.1 on the BBC page I'm looking at.



I heard a BBC person the other day (sorry I can't recall the full details) saying that they now use how popular stories are as a measure, so it's more like a "what people are reading" page and less like a "what we think is important" page than it used to be. 

Wisdom of the crowd or, erm, stupidity of the crowd...


----------



## likesfish (Apr 4, 2018)

Chemistry wont tell you where somethings made CSI lies


----------



## teqniq (Apr 4, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Russia now wanting to join the UK in a joint investigation, the piss taking bastards.


----------



## Reiabuzz (Apr 4, 2018)

Allegedly Putin is a decent chess player. He really doesn’t need to be when his opponent is BJ. How does this fuckwit keep his job, what’s he got on May?


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 4, 2018)

There is absolutely no doubt that today's events would have been a resignation/sacking matter,  not so very long ago. I'm now beginning to wonder if there is _anything_ Johnson can do which will result in that


----------



## teqniq (Apr 4, 2018)

We are in 'we can do what the fuck we like' territory and have been for quite some time for any and all kinds of indiscretions, cockups and inconveniences so none of this really surprises me.


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 4, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Did they fuck.


Yes they did. Boris jumped the gun, and claimed the head of PD said something he clearly didn't say, and they've tried to cover this up by deleting a tweet.
As for whodunnit, I'm perfectly willing to believe in this being Russian  handiwork of some sort or another.
I simply require one thing; evidence.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 4, 2018)

Streathamite said:


> Yes they did. Boris jumped the gun, and claimed the head of PD said something he clearly didn't say, and they've tried to cover this up by deleting a tweet.
> As for whodunnit, I'm perfectly willing to believe in this being Russian  handiwork of some sort or another.
> I simply require one thing; evidence.



Absolutely! And the slagging Corbyn got for saying lets wait for the evidence!  

Fucking Tory clowns.


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 4, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Absolutely! And the slagging Corbyn got for saying lets wait for the evidence!
> 
> Fucking Tory clowns.


Agreed. I'm slightly optimistic his deflection back against Corbyn simply looks so ridiculous that it will be counterproductive


----------



## Raheem (Apr 4, 2018)

Reiabuzz said:


> Allegedly Putin is a decent chess player.



Would anyone ever risk the consequences of trying to beat him, though?


----------



## Supine (Apr 4, 2018)




----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 4, 2018)

Boris Johnson on being asked, on telly, if it was Russian:  "Let me be clear...Porton Down, the laboratory...they were *absolutely categorical* and I asked the guy myself...and he said there's *no doubt*."


----------



## Mr Retro (Apr 4, 2018)

See Putin’s water glass on the news there? It’s a kind of crystal and gold goblet job 

Can’t help but think he missed a trick by not drinking from a skull


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 4, 2018)

Streathamite said:


> There is absolutely no doubt that today's events would have been a resignation/sacking matter,  not so very long ago. I'm now beginning to wonder if there is _anything_ Johnson can do which will result in that



He'll say something wildly offensive about Princess Diana, on national TV, at Prince Philip's funeral.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (Apr 4, 2018)

Well, here is the thing. Corbyn asked a direct question and the answer was (at best) fudged. This might be expected given that HMG might not wish to disclose what 'it' knows - and if anyone thinks that Parliament is a place of 'truth' they need a smack around the head. The key question - given the apparently objective position adopted by HMG's own resource centre - is what information has been made available, and from whom, in order to justify HMG's apparent position.

Lots of scope for FOIs here - all of which will likely be rejected.


----------



## LDC (Apr 5, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> A lot of posters on this thread look fucking stupid now.
> 
> Or like tory sock-puppets, which is just as likely.



What news articles have you been reading? No news coming out has made it look less like it was Russia at all.

Skripal: the weight of evidence

And are you seriously suggesting some people on here are fake accounts to push a Tory line on this? You're more down the conspiracy rabbit hole than I thought if so.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Absolutely! And the slagging Corbyn got for saying lets wait for the evidence!


With reason, Bishta.

All this is nonsense. Nobody ever said that PD was the only source of evidence. Yes, there's been a fuck-up but it's a slight one in the grand scheme of what's going on here and instead of holding Russia's feet to the fire for attempting to murder UK citizens on British streets, you lot are falling into step with the Kremlin's diversionary bullshit game because you get a small (and it is small) swipe at the government out of it.

Putin's mafia  attempting to assassinate people on British streets with chemical weapons is the story here, not Johnson making an arse of himself again.


----------



## andysays (Apr 5, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> A lot of posters on this thread look fucking stupid now.
> 
> Or like tory sock-puppets, which is just as likely.


Not sure who you're referring to or why, but any posters who might have started to look fucking stupid recently would only be catching up with you who has looked fucking stupid for as long as I can remember...


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 5, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> What news articles have you been reading? No news coming out has made it look less like it was Russia at all.
> 
> Skripal: the weight of evidence
> 
> And are you seriously suggesting some people on here are fake accounts to push a Tory line on this? You're more down the conspiracy rabbit hole than I thought if so.


Well if i'm a conspiracy loon best just to fuck off and talk to someone else then


----------



## binka (Apr 5, 2018)

Obviously the Russians did it, but if somehow it turned out they didn't I might just die laughing


----------



## elbows (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Yes, there's been a fuck-up but it's a slight one in the grand scheme of what's going on here and instead of holding Russia's feet to the fire for attempting to murder UK citizens on British streets, you lot are falling into step with the Kremlin's diversionary bullshit game because you get a small (and it is small) swipe at the government out of it.



There is plenty of room round the fire for many feet. I dont have to make false choices to satisfy you. I wouldnt take your invitation to ignore the subplots or face chastisement any more than I would turn a blind eye to a revolutionary movement that had a great ideology but very dubious methods. No enforced blindspots, policed by shit concepts such as being a traitor to the state, the cause or empowering 'our enemies'.


----------



## elbows (Apr 5, 2018)

I've read no detail yet but maybe Russias latest game involved a bit of phone-tapping...



> Russian state TV airs recorded conversation claimed to be between poisoning victim Yulia Skripal and her cousin



Russian TV airs 'Yulia Skripal call'

Breaking news on BBC as I type this so the story has no content yet, but may have by the time you click on it.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

elbows said:


> There is plenty of room round the fire for many feet. I dont have to make false choices to satisfy you. I wouldnt take your invitation to ignore the subplots or face chastisement any more than I would turn a blind eye to a revolutionary movement that had a great ideology but very dubious methods. No enforced blindspots, policed by shit concepts such as being a traitor to the state, the cause or empowering 'our enemies'.


Do what you like but it misses the point. Corbyn shat the bed on this initially and did himself no favours. This is more of almost the same from the left and I think it'll come back to haunt.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 5, 2018)

Whether we can prove Moscow’s involvement in the Skripal case or not is irrelevant


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

elbows said:


> I've read no detail yet but maybe Russias latest game involved a bit of phone-tapping...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's hard to see what Russia has to gain from this. The alleged conversation:



> The alleged Yulia tells her cousin Viktoria: "Everything is ok. He [her father] is resting now, having a sleep. Everyone's health is fine, there are no irreparable things. I will be discharged soon. Everything is ok."



Unless there's more to it than that all they seem to have done is to tell everyone that they're monitoring her phone calls.


----------



## elbows (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Do what you like but it misses the point. Corbyn shat the bed on this initially and did himself no favours. This is more of almost the same from the left and I think it'll come back to haunt.



I am reserving judgement on that political dimension until we get a bit further down the road.

Since I am not the leader of a party or the foreign secretary, I can afford not to have blindspots. If I muddy my own puddle then so what? If someone in a position of power muddies the waters in a manner that gives Russia wiggle room then I can understand the complaint far more.


----------



## elbows (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Unless there's more to it than that all they seem to have done is to tell everyone that they're monitoring her phone calls.



They take a multi-angled approach and in this case I wouldnt be surprised if they have an interest in downplaying the health implications. And winding up the UK government by trying to muscle in on UK monopoly over health updates/details.


----------



## Streathamite (Apr 5, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Corbyn shat the bed on this initially and did himself no favours.


No, he didn't. He said, basically "let's not rush to accusations until we have more evidence" which sounds sensible, cautious and reasonable to me - especially given the govt's somewhat loose relationship with the concept of truth.
FWIW, I think it probably did come from someone or some organisation connected with the Putin regime: but there's nowhere near enough known to say case closed. Today, a professor of chemistry at Cornell University confirmed the stuff could have made practically anywhere with a well-run lab. Plus, the formula and process was made public years ago.


----------



## binka (Apr 5, 2018)

I see Israel is following Corbyn on this 
As Britain’s key allies expel Russian diplomats, Israel opts not to


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 5, 2018)

binka said:


> I see Israel is following Corbyn on this
> As Britain’s key allies expel Russian diplomats, Israel opts not to



Old news.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 5, 2018)

Streathamite said:


> No, he didn't. He said, basically "let's not rush to accusations until we have more evidence" which sounds sensible, cautious and reasonable to me - especially given the govt's somewhat loose relationship with the concept of truth.
> FWIW, I think it probably did come from someone or some organisation connected with the Putin regime: but there's nowhere near enough known to say case closed. Today, a professor of chemistry at Cornell University confirmed the stuff could have made practically anywhere with a well-run lab. Plus, the formula and process was made public years ago.


Have you read this thread and all the links, Jez?  I think this is pivotal. There's an opportunity here to REALLY get stuck into Putin's murdering gangsters who've been chemically bombing Syrian towns and generally acting the cunt for years.

They say "prove it was us", which is impossible to do to the level that they presume to require. You're a smart bloke.

Circumstancial/Schmercumstantial.

Apply Occam's Razor.


----------



## binka (Apr 5, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Old news.


Oh I didn't realise it was a ten day old story. Carry on.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Have you read this thread and all the links, Jez?  I think this is pivotal. There's an opportunity here to REALLY get stick into Putin's gangsters who've been chemically bombing Syrian towns and generally acting the cunt.
> 
> They say "prove it was us", which is impossible to do to the level that they presume to require. You're a smart bloke.
> 
> ...


You're aware britain has a track record of false allegations, yeah?   Heard of the boy who cried wolf?

Occam's razor has nothing to do with international law.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Occam's razor has nothing to do with international law.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 6, 2018)

It's getting really confusing lately, and Johnson's comments didn't help. Still, the Putin admin. is hardly going to 'fess up to it. If they are behind it.

Not sure who to believe now.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


>


Please tell me which of your proposals, re the poisoning, is not an assumption.

What facts are there that you want to go through if we were to start now?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Please tell me which of your proposals, re the poisoning, is not an assumption.
> 
> What facts are there that you want to go through if we were to start now?


Read the thread. You've proved yourself to be not worth engaging with on this so I've no interest in going over it all again with you. If you have something new to add to the discussion, fine, but I don't think you do.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Read the thread. You've proved yourself to be not worth engaging with on this so I've no interest in going over it all again with you. If you have something new to add to the discussion, fine, but I don't think you do.


No facts to offer up then.  Fair enough.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> No facts to offer up then.  Fair enough.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2018)

FACTS!!!!!!!

VS

LIES!!!!


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


>


Indeed.  How about you engage or don't engage?  If you've no facts to offer up or to dispute/challenge or to discuss you just seem a bit...jingoistic.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Indeed.  How about you engage or don't engage?  If you've no facts to offer up or to dispute/challenge or to discuss you just seem a bit...jingoistic.


Go away. You're a loon.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

as much as it goes against my hand wringing liberal principles, there isn't going to be any conclusive proof coming for this incident, never mind and admission of guilt. if the Russians can still refute all responsibility for the Air malaysia flight, they certainly will not be pressurised into 'fessing to this. They did it or were aware of it at least. Johnson is still an awful  wretched cunt though.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 6, 2018)

does anyone think we'll get beyond reasonable doubt on this? I don't think thats how effective spycraft works (I've read le carre, deighton and frederick forsythe et al so there). if you had anything more than balance of probabilities then the other party will have fucked up royally. We won't even see much of that evidence either thou. It'll all be eyes only 50 year filed stuff because.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> as much as it goes against my hand wringing liberal principles, there isn't going to be any conclusive proof coming for this incident, never mind and admission of guilt. if the Russians can still refute all responsibility for the Air malaysia flight, they certainly will not be pressurised into 'fessing to this.


They didn't kill Alex Litvinenko either.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Pets.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> does anyone think we'll get beyond reasonable doubt on this? I don't think thats how effective spycraft works (I've read le carre, deighton and frederick forsythe et al so there). if you had anything more than balance of probabilities then the other party will have fucked up royally. We won't even see much of that evidence either thou. It'll all be eyes only 50 year filed stuff because.


 
the brit security services are 100% on the Russians here apparently and the Russians know this so its sorta détente in that area. from what I have heard


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> does anyone think we'll get beyond reasonable doubt on this? I don't think thats how effective spycraft works (I've read le carre, deighton and frederick forsythe et al so there). if you had anything more than balance of probabilities then the other party will have fucked up royally. We won't even see much of that evidence either thou. It'll all be eyes only 50 year filed stuff because.


Any hard evidence is likely based on spook shit that we'll not get to know about. Of course for the loons that means it doesn't exist.


----------



## Borp (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Pets.



Guinea pigs and cats must be really resistant to novichok.*

Seriously though, it pisses me off no one thought to look after the pets.

*even more than the skripals


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 6, 2018)

Disgusting to leave the animals to starve to death


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Borp said:


> Guinea pigs and cats must be really resistant to novichok.*
> 
> Seriously though, it pisses me off no one thought to look after the pets.
> 
> *even more than the skripals


What?  The nerve agent that is 10x as powerful as VX and kills within minutes but in this case hasn't killed anyone after a month from direct contact?  Wonder what Occam would say about that.

They've incinerated the animals anyway afaik.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Wonder what Occam would say about that.


That they probably didn't come into contact with any.

What's your loon take on it?


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> That they probably didn't come into contact with any.
> 
> What's your loon take on it?


My take is I'm not going to be talked down to by some jingoistic twat on the internet.  If you want adult dialogue feel free, otherwise jog on.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> My take is I'm not going to be talked down to ...


Well that'll happen a lot on this thread because you're posting a solid load of old wank that's only good for taking the piss out of.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Any hard evidence is likely based on spook shit that we'll not get to know about.


The week before last Merkel hinted at this (which suggests evidence in the form of some flavour of intelligence was at least shared with ‘trusted’ partners):



			
				Merkel said:
			
		

> “I would be happy if I didn’t have to name Russia here, but we can’t ignore evidence just because we don’t want to call out Russia … ”


Source: Bloomberg



			
				Merkel said:
			
		

> “a lot of indications point to Russia”


Source: Reuters

Then the CEO of Porton Down spelled it out more clearly a couple of days ago:



			
				Gary Aitkenhead Chief Executive Dstl said:
			
		

> “We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific information to government who have then used a number of other sources to piece together the conclusions that they have come to.”


Sources: Channel4 News, Sky News

Whether that other information is HUMINT, ELINT/SIGINT, other or some combination thereof is not likely to be divulged in the public domain for years, if ever. The relatively rapid responses of France, Germany strongly suggests that they were privy to reasonably convincing data of some description, sufficiently so for them to go on and themselves convince other parties. As the Channel 4 News report goes on the underline, chemical analysis is only part of the story.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

2hats said:


> The week before last Merkel hinted at this (which suggests evidence in the form of some flavour of intelligence was at least shared with ‘trusted’ partners):
> 
> Source: Bloomberg
> 
> ...


Rifkind said the other day that the UK has shared "highly classified information" with many of the 30-odd other countries that are acting against Russia.

Of course he can't be trusted not to be lying, and the fact that nobody from any of those countries is jumping up and down shouting "Rifkind's a liar. We have not seen this evidence" is down to this global conspiracy against Russia, eh Dexter?


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Tim Hayward  (article 1/4/18)  (credentials here About) is a follow-up article to Doubts about “Novichoks”

Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents - Ezine - spectroscopyNOW.com (as previously mentioned on this thread but never discussed)  

David B Collum and his public statements on twitter, Professor of Organo-chemistry whose credentials can be found here: David B. Collum | Chemistry & Chemical Biology Cornell Arts & Sciences (feel free to challenge him yourselves, it's twitter)

For clarity 2hats can perhaps confirm, if required, spectroscopy now's standing in the scientific community or indeed if any of the people referenced are considered to be 'loons'.

And just to be clear...doubting the word of tories makes no-one a conspiraloon.  Except to tory supporters such as may be on this thread and the brexit one.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2018)

Tim Hayward thinks that the White Helmets are Al-Qaidea. He's a beelyite. You are now so deep in the conspiracy swamp that it's all you can see dexter.

Thanks - once again - for confirming it.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Oh dear.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Oh dear.


Louis Allday (PhD candidate, SOAS University of London)

Professor Emeritus Oliver Boyd-Barrett (Bowling Green State University, United States of America)

Dr Tim Coles (University of Plymouth)

Professor Tim Hayward (University of Edinburgh)

Divya Jha (PhD candidate, Communication, Media and Journalism research group, University of Sheffield)

Adam Larson (Independent Researcher)

Jake Mason (PhD candidate, Communication, Media and Journalism research group, University of Sheffield)

Dr Tara McCormack (University of Leicester)

Professor Paul McKeigue (University of Edinburgh)

Professor David Miller (University of Bath)

Professor Piers Robinson (University of Sheffield) _Working Group Convenor_

Dr Greg Simons (Institute for Russian and Eurasian Studies, Uppsala University)

Dr Florian Zollmann (Newcastle University)

oh dear


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2018)

Everyone of them the same beeleyites - this explains who and where that list comes from.

Oh dear indeed.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

once again

Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents - Ezine - spectroscopyNOW.com


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> once again
> 
> Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents - Ezine - spectroscopyNOW.com


What on earth do you think that this says - does it contradict the porton down claim that "“probably only a state actor could create the nerve agent"?


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

and

David B Collum and his public statements on twitter, Professor of Organo-chemistry whose credentials can be found here: David B. Collum | Chemistry & Chemical Biology Cornell Arts & Sciences (feel free to challenge him yourselves, it's twitter)


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> and
> 
> David B Collum and his public statements on twitter, Professor of Organo-chemistry whose credentials can be found here: David B. Collum | Chemistry & Chemical Biology Cornell Arts & Sciences (feel free to challenge him yourselves, it's twitter)


Are you going to actually say what he said or anything like that? Maybe prepare a little precis for us to challenge? Or get informed on?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> and
> 
> David B Collum and his public statements on twitter, Professor of Organo-chemistry whose credentials can be found here: David B. Collum | Chemistry & Chemical Biology Cornell Arts & Sciences (feel free to challenge him yourselves, it's twitter)


What are you saying is significant in that?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 6, 2018)

Collum, of course, is a self-described conspiracy theorist and hard right market libertarian.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

Fake news by design | MR Online

Zollman here.  Why do it get the creeping feeling that this group is being bankrolled by RT?


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> What are you saying is significant in that?


I think the best idea is just to wait until ba tells you what to think.  Much better than checking for yourself.

That's how it works, isn't it?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> I think the best idea is just to wait until ba tells you what to think.  Much better than checking for yourself.
> 
> That's how it works, isn't it?


Lol. You really are a twat. You’re plagiarising this shit from other forums without understanding what you’re posting! 

You’re a waste of time.


----------



## TopCat (Apr 6, 2018)

This story is fucking ridiculous.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Lol. You really are a twat. You’re plagiarising this shit from other forums without understanding what you’re posting!
> 
> You’re a waste of time.


Some accusation there.  Plagiarizing eh?

Here's me thinking I went out and looked for myself then posted links to what I saw.

But yes.   Waste of time.   Click.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Here's me thinking I went out and looked for myself then posted links to what I saw.


Nah. You'd be able make some kind of argument if you had done that.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 6, 2018)

The daft part of my brain that sees conspiracies and duplicity in things wonders whether the two victims have actually improved at all, or whether they’ve just claimed this so as to see if it shits the Russians up and generates possibly incriminating chatter. Maybe the ‘taped’ phone conversation is just the Russians playing along so as not to blow the cover of the agent they have in the hospital keeping an eye on things... 

I wouldn’t like to be the agent who fucked this assassination up, I don’t imagine it’s good for the career.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 6, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> I wouldn’t like to be the agent who fucked this assassination up, I don’t imagine it’s good for the career.



They will be already hacked up and buried in landfill, gull snap.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Apr 6, 2018)

Sprocket. said:


> They will be already hacked up and buried in landfill, gull snap.


I'm inclined to agree with this analysis.


----------



## andysays (Apr 6, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> The daft part of my brain that sees conspiracies and duplicity in things wonders whether the two victims have actually improved at all, or whether they’ve just claimed this so as to see if it shits the Russians up and generates possibly incriminating chatter. Maybe the ‘taped’ phone conversation is just the Russians playing along so as not to blow the cover of the agent they have in the hospital keeping an eye on things...
> 
> I wouldn’t like to be the agent who fucked this assassination up, I don’t imagine it’s good for the career.



Alternately, it could be that they were never really poisoned at all, their miraculous recovery is simply them never being ill in the first place and the whole thing is a hoax to attack that nice Mr Putin...


----------



## 2hats (Apr 6, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> Disgusting to leave the animals to starve to death


It was reported a few weeks ago that the Skripal’s vet had advised authorities of the pets being in the house in the days following the incident and that they had been removed and taken to Porton Down for tests.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 6, 2018)

Wordpress document is self-contradictory in several places whilst busy tying itself up splitting hairs over semantics. Flawed and false statements and thinking are highlighted by some of the comments (eg no independent verification of novichok production in the USSR, claims about Uglev).

As regards waiting, let’s see how the OPCW classify the samples that they have taken.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 6, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> The daft part of my brain that sees conspiracies and duplicity in things wonders whether the two victims have actually improved at all, or whether they’ve just claimed this so as to see if it shits the Russians up and generates possibly incriminating chatter. Maybe the ‘taped’ phone conversation is just the Russians playing along so as not to blow the cover of the agent they have in the hospital keeping an eye on things...


Quite likely both intelligence services are playing the situation to determine where the leaks are. Goading and fog from one side in particular may not only be to maximise confusion amongst the media and public but might also be aimed at getting the other side to spill one clue too many (BJ potentially ripe for this) with the objective of tightening operational security for future wetwork.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 6, 2018)

Uh oh. Looks like another crash and burn, Dexter old chap.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 6, 2018)

andysays said:


> Alternately, it could be that they were never really poisoned at all, their miraculous recovery is simply them never being ill in the first place and the whole thing is a hoax to attack that nice Mr Putin...



They were thought to be drunk on that bench, every picture of them features booze, ergo the whole thing was just an epic bender; we’ve all had similar, get shitfaced, pass out in the town centre and when you come round there’s a nagging doubt you may have committed a faux pas or two, like bringing the world to the edge of nuclear Armageddon...


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 6, 2018)

Well finally...we have a fatality.

2 guinea pigs and a cat...courtesy of the security services locking them in the house and then no-one going in for so long only the cat survived long enough to be put down, apparently.

Serious investigations going on here.   Proper stuff.  It's getting cross-referenced and everything. They miss nothing.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Apr 6, 2018)

Fucking shit "weapons grade" chemical weapons and fucking shit "assassination techniques" too; two people targeted, one bystander, no-one dead. In fact, all three appear to making a full recovery. Is this the stuff of state actors demonstrating power, terrifying traitors and not making themselves look like dicks?


----------



## mystic pyjamas (Apr 6, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Well finally...we have a fatality.
> 
> 2 guinea pigs and a cat...courtesy of the security services locking them in the house and then no-one going in for so long only the cat survived long enough to be put down, apparently.
> 
> Serious investigations going on here.   Proper stuff.  It's getting cross-referenced and everything. They miss nothing.


Apparently there were two cats.
One has gone missing and the Russians want to know what’s happened to it.
You couldn’t make it up.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 6, 2018)

the other cat is Ok


----------



## tim (Apr 6, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Fucking shit "weapons grade" chemical weapons and fucking shit "assassination techniques" too; two people targeted, one bystander, no-one dead. In fact, all three appear to making a full recovery. Is this the stuff of state actors demonstrating power, terrifying traitors and not making themselves look like dicks?



This is amd tjlhe odd dead Guinea pig is what happens when washed-up former world powers come into conflict


----------



## elbows (Apr 6, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> the other cat is Ok



One cat being ok is not good enough for Putin, since he demands multi-cat satisfaction.


----------



## editor (Apr 7, 2018)

Really smart piece here: Myth busting: Why didn't the Skripals die on the spot?


----------



## Borp (Apr 7, 2018)

editor said:


> Really smart piece here: Myth busting: Why didn't the Skripals die on the spot?



It's a persuasive article. But like almost everything to do with this situation, there are doubts. If you look at the comments underneath there are references questioning the reliability of the writer. Whether they are legit or not, I have no idea.
I think this is the main bone of contention
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1s_17FtlCORZNMzKx5haZV


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Apr 7, 2018)

editor said:


> Really smart piece here: Myth busting: Why didn't the Skripals die on the spot?


Well it's interesting certainly but it totally ignores the one well documented record of a scientist on the Novichok program accidentally exposed to it; I think it is fair to say that that man showered to within an inch of his life immediately (you would, wouldn't you, being as you know what you are dealing with) and received all the medical care available, if only for research purposes. He got ill, he got worse over a number of years, then he died. Unless atropine was unknown as a potential therapy? Anyone think they know?


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

elbows said:


> One cat being ok is not good enough for Putin, since he demands multi-cat satisfaction.



Those cats have clearly been drugged.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> ... it totally ignores the one well documented record of a scientist on the Novichok program accidentally exposed to it; I think it is fair to say that that man showered to within an inch of his life immediately (you would, wouldn't you, being as you know what you are dealing with) and received all the medical care available, if only for research purposes. He got ill, he got worse over a number of years, then he died. Unless atropine was unknown as a potential therapy? Anyone think they know?


That's a red herring. The point of the piece is to provide an explanation as to why the targets didn't drop dead immediately on coming into contact with the substance. The loons (see DexterTCN 's recent witterings) are trying to make capital from the fact that the Skripals, for now at least, appear to have survived. They will now change their position to something along the lines of "if it's not guaranteed to be fatal why didn't they use another method?".


----------



## 2hats (Apr 7, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Well it's interesting certainly but it totally ignores the one well documented record of a scientist on the Novichok program accidentally exposed to it; I think it is fair to say that that man showered to within an inch of his life immediately (you would, wouldn't you, being as you know what you are dealing with) and received all the medical care available, if only for research purposes. He got ill, he got worse over a number of years, then he died. Unless atropine was unknown as a potential therapy? Anyone think they know?


Atropine has been used to treat nerve agent poisonings for decades and will most certainly have been used to treat the two researchers in the Foliant programme that are known to have been exposed to their own creations. They both survived the exposure but with health problems (one most certainly dying prematurely due to said exposure, the ultimate fate of the second is apparently unknown). This doesn’t appear to be inconsistent with the reported evolution of the Skripal’s conditions.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 7, 2018)

Borp said:


> If you look at the comments underneath there are references questioning the reliability of the writer. Whether they are legit or not, I have no idea.


And if you continue down that rabbit hole you’ll discover that the reliability of the author’s critic is also questioned.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 7, 2018)

Borp said:


> I think this is the main bone of contention
> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw1s_17FtlCORZNMzKx5haZV


Can you point out anything specific here or are you expecting everyone to plough through a 44 page pdf?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 7, 2018)

editor said:


> Really smart piece here: Myth busting: Why didn't the Skripals die on the spot?


Almost a year ago to the day the assad regime - with russian support - sarin gassed the village of Khan Sheikhoun killing 70+ people and injuring 500+ at lowest estimates. The progression of their post-attack joint defence went:

No such attack took place-->the rebels did it to themselves-->why would we do such a thing that would obv point the finger at us-->anyone can produce sarin-->it wasn't even sarin as the white helmet first responders didn't die immediately-->the white helmets did it-->let's not rush to judgement and leave it to the OPCW experts-->the OPCW's definitive findings against us have no credibility nor does the OPCW as a body.


Each of these stages is shown to be a total lie or fabrication by a fantastic detailed series here.

As each lie fell they simply moved onto the next one, shamelessly just ignoring what they previously said. That list of experts dexter listed above were formed into a 'working group' (a look into their support groups and links is very interesting - holocaust deniers, anti-semites, people who think 911 paris attacks etc were fake flags etc) to support each stage of this procession of planned lies and attempts to hide what actually took place - so it's no surprise to see him using them here (not posting what they argue btw just listing them for some reason). Part of this was the uncritical recycling of the output of this working group and related others by unwitting unquestioning drones like dexter. So, judging from what dexter is now  parroting, we now appear to between the stage of there was no attack and if there was it wasn't even  'sarin'.

It's not a rabbit hole - it's a cess pit.


----------



## likesfish (Apr 9, 2018)

The idea may organised a false flag is loony tunes


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2018)

Russian Prosecutor General now claiming that Berezovsky poisoned Litvinenko - on the order of the british state.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 9, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Russian Prosecutor General now claiming that Berezovsky poisoned Litvinenko - on the order of the british state.


Now also conveniently assassinated suicided.

I didn't realise that AL was killed 12 years ago. Seems much more recent than that.


----------



## AnandLeo (Apr 9, 2018)

"Two guinea pigs and a cat have died at the house of the nerve agent victims, because a vet did not have access to property." Do you need a vet to attend to the welfare of these animals? Officers have been searching and working in that property since the victims were hospitalised. Why they could not attend to the animals’ welfare when they first entered the property?


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 9, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Almost a year ago to the day the assad regime - with russian support - sarin gassed the village of Khan Sheikhoun killing 70+ people and injuring 500+ at lowest estimates. The progression of their post-attack joint defence went:
> 
> No such attack took place-->the rebels did it to themselves-->why would we do such a thing that would obv point the finger at us-->anyone can produce sarin-->it wasn't even sarin as the white helmet first responders didn't die immediately-->the white helmets did it-->let's not rush to judgement and leave it to the OPCW experts-->the OPCW's definitive findings against us have no credibility nor does the OPCW as a body.
> 
> ...



The response to the outrage regarding  today's attacks has started with the exact same 'no such attack took place' defence. Be interesting to see if over the coming days and weeks the criminal Russian state follow more or less the same pattern as you've outlined here.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2018)

The next one is that the UK did Douma to avoid getting caught out on skirpal. This is the russian ambassador the UN. People on here are believing his mad shit? They wouldn't have ten years ago. Skunk+internet is a hell of a drug.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 9, 2018)

likesfish said:


> The idea may organised a false flag is loony tunes


Indeed.

The small animals don't die in Looney Tunes.


----------



## keybored (Apr 9, 2018)

editor said:


> Really smart piece here: Myth busting: Why didn't the Skripals die on the spot?


Dan Kaszeta has been giving Craig Murray a proper spanking on Twitter recently. Watching Murray get so out of his depth so often is pure entertainment now.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 9, 2018)

AnandLeo said:


> "Two guinea pigs and a cat have died at the house of the nerve agent victims, because a vet did not have access to property." Do you need a vet to attend to the welfare of these animals? Officers have been searching and working in that property since the victims were hospitalised. Why they could not attend to the animals’ welfare when they first entered the property?



Presumably there was a potential hazard in entering the property, so not considered worth the risk. Seems very cruel, but I can see why that decision would have been made (and also possible they were unaware of pets being there).


----------



## rioted (Apr 9, 2018)

keybored said:


> Dan Kaszeta has been giving Craig Murray a proper spanking on Twitter recently. Watching Murray get so out of his depth so often is pure entertainment now.


Dan Kaszeta has form: 
A Brief Assessment of the Veracity of Published Statements in the Press and Elsewhere Made by Dan Kaszeta, A Self-Described Expert on the Science and Technology of Chemical Weapons


----------



## 2hats (Apr 9, 2018)

Are some people incapable of reading a thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 9, 2018)

rioted said:


> Dan Kaszeta has form:
> A Brief Assessment of the Veracity of Published Statements in the Press and Elsewhere Made by Dan Kaszeta, A Self-Described Expert on the Science and Technology of Chemical Weapons


The chem creds of CM = not a problem for this _anarchist for corbyn._


----------



## tim (Apr 9, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> Presumably there was a potential hazard in entering the property, so not considered worth the risk. Seems very cruel, but I can see why that decision would have been made (and also possible they were unaware of pets being there).



Nice to see a patriot defending our cack-handed authorities.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Apr 9, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I didn't realise that AL was killed 12 years ago. Seems much more recent than that.



I had to google. Seems like just a few years back!


----------



## moochedit (Apr 9, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I had to google. Seems like just a few years back!



Time goes quicker as you get older


----------



## 2hats (Apr 10, 2018)

Yulia Skripal was discharged from hospital yesterday and taken to a secure location. The hospital is supposed to be making a statement later this morning.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 10, 2018)

Almost predictably…


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 10, 2018)

...and of course they use a picture of him confined  in a russian cage to illustrate this.


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 10, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> ...and of course they use a picture of him confined  in a russian cage to illustrate this.


Not sure what is the appropriate conclusion to draw from the fact that the Embassy are clearly hoping that the Skripals will pop up on our TV screens assuming that one or both are sufficiently recovered.


----------



## MikeMcc (Apr 11, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> Well it's interesting certainly but it totally ignores the one well documented record of a scientist on the Novichok program accidentally exposed to it; I think it is fair to say that that man showered to within an inch of his life immediately (you would, wouldn't you, being as you know what you are dealing with) and received all the medical care available, if only for research purposes. He got ill, he got worse over a number of years, then he died. Unless atropine was unknown as a potential therapy? Anyone think they know?


Atropine is used to counter the immediate effects.  Nerve agents affect the chemical substances that transmit signals from one neuron to another, causing random triggering.  Hence the pinpoint pupils (causing dimness of vision), twitching, cramps, muscular seizures, and eventually interruption to breathing and heart-rate.  atropine, oximes, sedatives, etc can help in treating the symptoms, but certainly aren't cures.

Atropine is commonly held to treat cardiac problems, rather than CBRN attacks.  It's a useful and cheap drug to combat a range of complaints.  The particular mix of oximes, sedatives, etc. to help are known to the NHS and are taught on CBRN Medic courses at DCBRNC at Winterborne Gunner.  After the attacks in Japan, this has been a particularly hot subject


----------



## StigoftheDig (Apr 11, 2018)

Entirely coincidentally, I was listening to an audio book of Smiley's People this weekend, and this line jumped out:

 "The weapon used to kill Vladimir was a standard Moscow Centre assassination device, Smiley said. Concealed in a camera, a brief-case, or whatever. A soft-nosed bullet is fired at point blank range. To obliterate, to punish, and to discourage others."

And in trying to track down that line, I found this article, which makes a similar conclusion: 

"Moscow Rules: The death of a defector" - Reader comments at The New York Sun 

(All a little off topic as it's kind of fictional, so apologies for that.)


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 11, 2018)

StigoftheDig said:


> Entirely coincidentally, I was listening to an audio book of Smiley's People this weekend, and this line jumped out:
> 
> "The weapon used to kill Vladimir was a standard Moscow Centre assassination device, Smiley said. Concealed in a camera, a brief-case, or whatever. A soft-nosed bullet is fired at point blank range. To obliterate, to punish, and to discourage others."
> 
> ...


No problems, most of this thread is fictional


----------



## StigoftheDig (Apr 11, 2018)

You've done a satire there, Dexter!


----------



## teqniq (Apr 11, 2018)

Statement issued on behalf of Yulia Skripal


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 11, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Statement issued on behalf of Yulia Skripal


seems legit

She should sell her superblood, it's worth millions I bet.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 11, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> seems legit
> 
> She should sell her superblood, it's worth millions I bet.


Oh dear


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 11, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> seems legit
> 
> She should sell her superblood, it's worth millions I bet.



Twat.


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 11, 2018)

teqniq said:


> Statement issued on behalf of Yulia Skripal


Puts to rest any doubts for sure.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 11, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Twat.


That would be her own decision and I'm certainly not suggesting it.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 12, 2018)

Inspectors back UK in spy poisoning row

Fake news, OPCW has no credibility etc...


----------



## 2hats (Apr 12, 2018)

From the official public report summary (TAV=Technical Assistance Visit):


> The results of analysis by the OPCW designated laboratories of environmental and biomedical samples collected by the OPCW team confirm the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury and severely injured three people.
> The TAV team notes that the toxic chemical was of high purity. The latter is concluded from the almost complete absence of impurities.
> The name and structure of the identified toxic chemical are contained in the full classified report of the Secretariat, available to States Parties.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 12, 2018)

2hats would I possibly be right in thinking that high purity would suggest recent manufacture? Ie that if it was old it would have deteriorated somewhat.


----------



## patman post (Apr 12, 2018)

teqniq said:


> 2hats would I possibly be right in thinking that high purity would suggest recent manufacture? Ie that if it was old it would have deteriorated somewhat.


To me “high purity” suggests skilled manufacture in specialised premises, unlike the back-street ricin lab uncovered in Wood Green a few years ago. But we may know more when the OPCW report is discussed in the UN shortly...


----------



## 2hats (Apr 12, 2018)

teqniq said:


> 2hats would I possibly be right in thinking that high purity would suggest recent manufacture? Ie that if it was old it would have deteriorated somewhat.


The high purity suggests someone went to a great deal of effort to refine the process and hide precursors and scrubbers, taking great care to cook it up with precision and discipline, all of which in turn suggests state actor.


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 12, 2018)

But the OPCW is in on the false flag, obviously!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 12, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> But the OPCW is in on the false flag, obviously!



Yeah it's blatantly all part of the ploy.  Insist on an OPCW investigation because it's independent and then deny its findings when it rules against you. Text book


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> She should sell her superblood, it's worth millions I bet.


Sell it to the OPCW


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 12, 2018)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah it's blatantly all part of the ploy.  Insist on an OPCW investigation because it's independent and then deny its findings when it rules against you. Text book



The OPCW says it confirms the UK's findings that it was novichok.  They do not mention region of origin.

This is being reported in the UK as it's been confirmed it was Russia, it has not.

Now that doesn't make me a loon, a ct'er, or a (this week's state message) false-flagger nor a filthy russian spy.

BoJo jumped on the OPCW statement (or lack of) and said


> Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson said: "There can be no doubt what was used."
> 
> He added: "There remains no alternative explanation about who was responsible - only Russia has the means, motive and record."


So would someone like to back him up on 'only russia has the means, motive and record' because that's just lies and he's the Foreign Secretary and seems to be starting a war.

Only Russia has the means, motive and record.   Someone want to run with that?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)

Hands-up, I confess, it came from my lab, in my garage.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> The OPCW says it confirms the UK's findings that it was novichok.  They do not mention region of origin.
> 
> This is being reported in the UK as it's been confirmed it was Russia, it has not.



Where have you seen it reported as this? Every piece of reporting that i've seen has been clear that the findings relate to what was used not to who did it.

Of course, no mention of your suggestions that _nothing was used at all_ now the OPCW have confirmed something was in fact used. This is the way you loons work - just move onto the next lie or attempt to confuse and never look back.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2018)

Question the loons are now facing is do they seek to undermine discredit and dismiss the OPCW (as they already did when it found the syrian regime to have carried out the khan sheikoun sarin chemical attack in may last year and now conveniently forgotten in line with the move onto the next lie MO mentioned above - and which russia responded to by vetoing the renewal of their mandate to investigate any chemical attacks in syria) whilst they still have hopes for the same body to clear the same regime as regards the chemical attack in Douma last weekend?

The longer they hold on the stronger the OPCW and it's findings appear - so, if they ever are allowed to investigate the Douma site (now picked clean by russians btw) and find against the regime. But if they dismiss the body and its findings too early then they are in trouble in the unlikely situation of it clearing the regime.

But then again, it doesn't matter that much does it  as they will have forgotten everything - or try to hide everything - by the next incident. Then they will start the whole disgusting cycle all over again.


----------



## Supine (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> This is being reported in the UK as it's been confirmed it was Russia, it has not.



Really? Where?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)

Supine said:


> Really? Where?



I can't find anything, I think DexterTCN is just posting shit, as loons so often do.


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 12, 2018)

Supine said:


> Really? Where?


Channel Four reported that OPCW have confirmed that it was' Novichoks' -not sure that the OPCW used that term themselves?


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 12, 2018)

Novichok used in spy poisoning, chemical weapons watchdog confirms


> The findings by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons will be a major relief to the UK, which has said novichok, a military-grade nerve agent developed by Russia, was used in the attack.


telegraph


> 12 Apr 2018, 12:20pm
> *Russia 'must give answers' after watchdog confirms spy and daughter poisoned with 'high purity' Novichok*


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 12, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> I can't find anything, I think DexterTCN is just posting shit, as loons so often do.


You can apologise now 

Prick.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2018)

So _not at all _as you claimed. Perfect example of the technique.


----------



## Supine (Apr 12, 2018)

Duncan2 said:


> Channel Four reported that OPCW have confirmed that it was' Novichoks' -not sure that the OPCW used that term themselves?



From c4

"The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons did not name the chemical used as Novichok or point the finger at any country for using it. "

Note they didn't name the chemical publicly to reduce proliferation possibilities


----------



## cupid_stunt (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> You can apologise now
> 
> Prick.



Developed by Russia, is not the same as having been used by Russia, you fucking moron.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 12, 2018)

Duncan2 said:


> Channel Four reported that OPCW have confirmed that it was' Novichoks' -not sure that the OPCW used that term themselves?


Try reading post #1123.


DexterTCN said:


> Novichok used in spy poisoning, chemical weapons watchdog confirms
> 
> telegraph


As per post #1123. Confirms the agent used. Doesn’t make any claim (in public) about the origin.

Are you capable of reading and understanding English or just determined to be a mendacious loon?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2018)

Another claim dexter will just move on and ignore now it's been shown to be fake. But, just enough to cloud the issue and make anyone skim reading possibly take it's truth for granted -and then to go away and take that with them and introduce it into another debate, another picture another worldview...


----------



## Supine (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Novichok used in spy poisoning, chemical weapons watchdog confirms
> 
> telegraph



Neither link backs your assertion


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 12, 2018)

Supine said:


> Neither link backs your assertion


'
Pretty sure the Channel Four reporter himself simply said that the OPCW had confirmed that 'Novichoks' were used.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2018)

Duncan2 said:


> '
> Pretty sure the Channel Four reporter himself simply said that the OPCW had confirmed that 'Novichoks' were used.


What do you think dexter's claim was? It was this:



> This is being reported in the UK as it's been confirmed it was Russia, it has not.


----------



## Supine (Apr 12, 2018)

Duncan2 said:


> '
> Pretty sure the Channel Four reporter himself simply said that the OPCW had confirmed that 'Novichoks' were used.



They have agreed the same agent was used. Dexter was asserting they named Russia, which they have not.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 12, 2018)

Supine said:


> They have agreed the same agent was used. Dexter was asserting they named Russia, which they have not.


Did I mention or quote C4?


----------



## Duncan2 (Apr 12, 2018)

Supine said:


> They have agreed the same agent was used. Dexter was asserting they named Russia, which they have not.


Yes-what I meant was that so far as I could see the OPCW didn't actually use the Russian-sounding term and as a non-scientist there may,for all i know,have been a reason for that.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 12, 2018)

2hats said:


> Try reading post #1123.
> 
> As per post #1123. Confirms the agent used. Doesn’t make any claim (in public) about the origin.
> 
> Are you capable of reading and understanding English or just determined to be a mendacious loon?


I didn't say that the OPCW said it was linked to Russia.  I specifically said they didn't link it to any region of origin.  Did you not read it...or did you not understand it?  

If a newspaper starts a headline that says "Russia must give answers after watchdog confirms..."  don't tell me that isn't 'reporting' that it was Russia.  That would be mendacious.

However...glad you've now used the trigger word loon which illustrates the pointlessness of discussion, cheers.


----------



## Supine (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Did I mention or quote C4?



You said "The OPCW says it confirms the UK's findings that it was novichok. They do not mention region of origin.

This is being reported in the UK as it's been confirmed it was Russia, it has not."

Who in the UK is reporting it was Russia? As pointed out c4 haven't..


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2018)

Trying to throw much sand in others eyes that he's blinded himself - no longer seems to have control of what he's arguing at any given point.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> I didn't say that the OPCW said it was linked to Russia.  I specifically said they didn't link it to any region of origin.  Did you not read it...or did you not understand it?
> 
> If a newspaper starts a headline that says "Russia must give answers after watchdog confirms..."  don't tell me that isn't 'reporting' that it was Russia.  That would be mendacious.
> 
> However...glad you've now used the trigger word loon which illustrates the pointlessness of discussion, cheers.


*plonk*


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 12, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Trying to throw much sand in others eyes that he's blinded himself - no longer seems to have control of what he's arguing at any given point.



I bet he threw sand in other kids faces when he was 4...pointed & laughed & blamed someone else. Eh Dex?


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Apr 12, 2018)

Supine said:


> You said "The OPCW says it confirms the UK's findings that it was novichok. They do not mention region of origin.
> 
> This is being reported in the UK as it's been confirmed it was Russia, it has not."
> 
> Who in the UK is reporting it was Russia? As pointed out c4 haven't..



I've been in the car all day; R4 news have repeatedly said that the OPCW report confirms the UK govt position. UK govt position is that this agent is novichok, is of Russian origin, could only have been used by Russia.

Seems pretty clear to me.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 12, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> The OPCW says it confirms the UK's findings that it was novichok.  They do not mention region of origin.
> 
> This is being reported in the UK as it's been confirmed it was Russia, it has not.
> 
> ...



As others have already said, why say the media have reported it was definitely Russia? The OPCW confirmed it was highly pure novichock, like the UK government said. Russia insisted on going to the OPCW, now it disregards it because it didn't find in its favour. You said it didn't even happen and now you've conveniently dropped that assertion and moved on to something else.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 12, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I've been in the car all day; R4 news have repeatedly said that the OPCW report confirms the UK govt position. UK govt position is that this agent is novichok, is of Russian origin, could only have been used by Russia.
> 
> Seems pretty clear to me.



Confirms the govt position about what was used in the attack.  That is what has been reported. The UK govt position is to introduce Universal credit - does accurately reporting what the OPCW findings are (and all they ever could be) also mean that they are reporting the OPCW as supporting the introduction of universal credit? The OPCW's findings could certainly be used as part of the evidence in a case that russia carried out the attack but that's different from reporting it as confirming the govt's case about who carried out the attack. Maybe you're confusing the two?


----------



## 2hats (Apr 12, 2018)

AnnaKarpik said:


> I've been in the car all day; R4 news have repeatedly said that the OPCW report confirms the UK govt position. UK govt position is that this agent is novichok, is of Russian origin, could only have been used by Russia.
> 
> Seems pretty clear to me.


Seems pretty clear to me that you either weren’t listening or that’s a different R4 from the one I’ve been listening to all day.

For example, a verbatim transcript of today’s (12Apr2018) BBC Radio 4 _Six O’Clock News_:


> HEADLINE (00:18-00:27): The international chemical weapons watchdog says *it backs findings on the identity* of the nerve agent used in the poisoning of a former Russian spy in Salisbury.
> 
> MAIN (11:09-13:23): The international chemical weapons watchdog the OPCW has said that its investigation has backed British findings that a Soviet era nerve agent was used to poison a former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury. *It does not name the source of the chemical* but the foreign secretary Boris Johnson said that only Russia had the means, motive and record to carry out the attack. Moscow, which denies it is behind the poisoning, has said that it will not accept the OPCW’s conclusions. Here’s our security correspondent Frank Gardener: Today’s report into the Salisbury nerve agent attack, issued by the global chemical weapons watchdog the OPCW, largely supports the British government’s version of events. It says its team collected blood samples from the three affected individuals and these were subsequently tested in its own laboratories. The results, said *the report, confirmed the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical* that was used in Salisbury. It goes on to say the substance was of high purity with an almost complete absence of impurities. What it does not mention by name is the word novichok, the brand name frequently attributed by British officials to the nerve agent. But the OPCW said the name and structure of the identified toxic chemical are contained in the full, classified report which has been released to governments. Earlier today the director of the UK government intelligence agency, GCHQ, Jeremy Fleming, said the attack on Sergei and Yulia Skripal on March the fourth was the first time a nerve agent had been deployed in Europe since the second world war - “It demonstrates how ruthless Russia is prepared to be. How little the Kremlin cares of the international rules based order. How comfortable they are at putting ordinary lives at risk.” Russia continues to deny any involvement in the attack. *The OPCW report doesn’t name either the source or the culprit* behind the poisoning. Its remit was only to identify the chemical agent used. The Russian foreign ministry has branded today’s report part of a British operation to discredit it but it may now face difficult questions after Britain has called for an executive council meeting of the global watchdog as well as a debate in the UN security council.


The above clearly states that the public OPCW report both supports the previous (UK government) identification of the nerve agent and says nothing about the source of it.


----------



## Bingo (Apr 13, 2018)

The story that ran on the BBC website yesterday was quite cleverly written, it gave the impression that the Government's original statement on the chemical was true and was backed by the OPCW's findings, implying that it came from Russia.

Anyway that's what a layperson who quickly read it would take away.


----------



## Supine (Apr 13, 2018)

And that's what politicians like Boris take away too. The actual written responses from the government (civil servant professionals) and the OPCW are rather nuanced carefully worded statements. Journalists and career politicians don't seem to have the English comprehension skills required anymore.


----------



## 2hats (Apr 13, 2018)

Supine said:


> Journalists and career politicians don't seem to have the English comprehension skills required anymore.


Nor do, it seems, increasing swathes of the general public.


----------



## Bingo (Apr 13, 2018)

Most people just skim headlines, if it's deliberately misleading it's no wonder people fall for it.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)




----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 13, 2018)

2hats said:


> Are you capable of reading and understanding English or just determined to be a mendacious loon?


Little from column A, little from column B.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> Little from column A, little from column B.


Oh dear...it's the charge of the lightweight brigade.  Nothing to contribute apart from your usual antagonism.  Say something interesting, I dare you. (no help, do it on your own, must show working out)


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 13, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Oh dear...it's the charge of the lightweight brigade.  Nothing to contribute apart from your usual antagonism.  Say something interesting, I dare you. (no help, do it on your own, must show working out)



So sayeth the person whose contribution has been 'it didn't happen' ... 'it did happen but it wasn't russia' ... 'it didn't happen' ... 'stop questioning me it happened but it wasn't state nerve agent' ... 'look at the funny pciture to distract from my ineptitude' ... 'it didn't happen' ... 'OPCW said it happened but it probably wasn't Russia' ... 'the media said it happened but it didn't really happen in the way everyone's saying it happened so it didn't happen' ... 'this thread's a fiction'


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 13, 2018)

A lot of people on here lacking basic verbal reasoning skills


----------



## 2hats (Apr 13, 2018)

Bingo said:


> Most people just skim headlines, if it's deliberately misleading it's no wonder people fall for it.


Yet the headline in the above radio news bulletin, *read* to the audience, is very clear.

Most printed headlines convey minimal informational content by their nature. Have people's cognitive abilities and patience been that badly eroded by years of exposure to twitter, soundbites and under-funded, under-resourced education?


Bingo said:


> The story that ran on the BBC website yesterday was quite cleverly written, it gave the impression that the Government's original statement on the chemical was true and was backed by the OPCW's findings, implying that it came from Russia.


Which article was that then?


> Anyway that's what a layperson who quickly read it would take away.


Quickly read it without applying any basic, cogent thinking or reasoning skills?


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)

Doctor Carrot said:


> So sayeth the person whose contribution has been 'it didn't happen' ... 'it did happen but it wasn't russia' ... 'it didn't happen' ... 'stop questioning me it happened but it wasn't state nerve agent' ... 'look at the funny pciture to distract from my ineptitude' ... 'it didn't happen' ... 'OPCW said it happened but it probably wasn't Russia' ... 'the media said it happened but it didn't really happen in the way everyone's saying it happened so it didn't happen' ... 'this thread's a fiction'


Entire post made up of quotes I didn't post.   Well done.

I'll let you get back to supporting Boris, I'm not wasting my time with you.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 13, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Entire post made up of quotes I didn't post.



I know, I thought I'd post in a style you're familiar with...

Your post didn't happen.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I know, I thought I'd post in a style you're familiar with...
> 
> Your post didn't happen.


That's it?  Just make shit up and brazen it out when challenged? 

I'm afraid, like many of your tory supporting pals, you think you're above the rules that you demand from everyone else here.   It must be why your cause is doing so amazingly well 

Any last words before I bid you adieu?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 13, 2018)

Dexter why does it make you a Tory to believe that Russia poisoned them? It's just the most logical conclusion. I stupidly took a look at the Tory-loving Daily Mail comments pages and it's awash with conspiraloons too. You could go join them!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 13, 2018)

> Any last words before I bid you adieu?



Yep



DexterTCN said:


> Just take the 310 bus from Porton Down, simples.



False flag allegation, without any evidence that you constantly crow for.



DexterTCN said:


> A bit rich, coming from someone who accepts everything they (the tories) say without proof and looks to their mates for shit to throw when all I mentioned was due process.



Coming from someone who accepts everything they (the cuddly-wuddly Russian state) say without proof.  Bangs on about due process but then when that due process goes against you (OPCW findings), you ignore it then bang on about how the British media reported it was from Russia, it then gets pointed out to you no such thing happened... You ignore that too.  You accuse everyone who disagrees with you as tory shills, which is hilarious on a site like this, made more amusing because by your logic that means the OPCW are tory shills too.



DexterTCN said:


>




Post this really fucking stupid picture which moves your position from 'it happened' to 'haha look, nothing happened at all because why would they not wear chemical suits if an attack actually happened?' it's then pointed out to you the picture is of investigators removing their suits... Your response? Silence... On to the next bullshit.



DexterTCN said:


> No problems, most of this thread is fictional



Only your posts.

See ya


----------



## andysays (Apr 13, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Oh dear...it's the charge of the lightweight brigade.  Nothing to contribute apart from your usual antagonism.  Say something interesting, I dare you. (no help, do it on your own, must show working out)


----------



## andysays (Apr 13, 2018)

Another interesting development in this story, or yet more complete fabrication to smear that nice Mr Putin? 

Salisbury poisoning: Russia 'targeted' Yulia Skripal email


> Russian intelligence agencies targeted poison victim Yulia Skripal's email account as early as 2013, the UK's national security adviser has said.
> 
> In a letter to Nato, Sir Mark Sedwill said Russia trained "special units" to use nerve agents, including the method of applying them to door handles. Police say the highest concentration of nerve agent Novichok was on the front door of Mr Skripal's Salisbury home.


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 13, 2018)

andysays said:


> Another interesting development in this story, or yet more complete fabrication to smear that nice Mr Putin?
> 
> Salisbury poisoning: Russia 'targeted' Yulia Skripal email



I wouldn’t consider that a ‘smoking gun’ really, of course they would have been interested in the Skripals and that this might involve snooping on their emails isn’t really a surprise. It doesn’t necessary follow that they would poison them, I think overplaying something like this looks a bit desperate, which just feeds the loons more. I suspect there is more substantial evidence being withheld to protect sources/methods, this stuff is pretty tame.


----------



## Borp (Apr 13, 2018)

.


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yep
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well 'false-flag' is this week's word, isn't it. 

If I've agreed with anything said by Russia I'm not aware of it.  The OPCW findings went against me?  How did that work then?  What did I say on it that was an opinion that put me on a side?   Your implying I'm pro-russia in this, that's a lie (and a bit jingoistic, in fact). Do you see this matter in the context of sides?

I stand by the news reports I quoted and the undeniable fact that the british media reported BoJo saying it was the russians which is 100% proof of the british media reporting it was the russians.	

No-one pointed out fuck all about that picture that I'm aware of, someone suggested something, that's not pointing out.  (It was ages ago, don't really recall.)   

My stance in this from the start in regards to the crime of poisoning...due process.  

When leaders stand up in parliament and they say it has been confirmed it was a certain country committing a crime  that can lead us to war...then I've been here before and they were lying the last time (and this lot are worse).   In those days this place wasn't full of tories, obviously.  

And you yourself...have deliberately hand-picked some of my posts for the sake of contention and absolutely ignored 100% stone-cold solid facts such as Spectroscopy Now and Dave B Collum.

None of these say Russia didn't do it, Russia probably did.  But still...I want more proof than some tory appointed stooge telling me I have to take their, or your, word for it.  

Are you here to discuss?  Or will we just stick to the loons be crazy verdict?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 13, 2018)

> I stand by the news reports I quoted and the undeniable fact that the british media reported BoJo saying it was the russians which is 100% proof of the british media reporting it was the russians.



Not what you said at all. Never mind - onto the next one. Onwards!

Oh Russia probably did it. So no longer total fiction? Never mind. Onwards!

I'd be interested in why you now think that russia probably did it rather than it being fake, never happened etc. What made you change your mind. Of course, that's probably secret.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 13, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> ...mind..



?


----------



## agricola (Apr 13, 2018)

andysays said:


> Another interesting development in this story, or yet more complete fabrication to smear that nice Mr Putin?
> 
> Salisbury poisoning: Russia 'targeted' Yulia Skripal email



I can only hope that the relevant "special unit" of the FSB is called the knob squad.


----------



## Supine (Apr 13, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> When leaders stand up in parliament and they say it has been confirmed it was a certain country committing a crime  that can lead us to war...



And again... They didn't say it was confirmed in parliament. They said something along the lines of most likely... Small point but hey, words matter


----------



## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)

Supine said:


> And again... They didn't say it was confirmed in parliament. They said something along the lines of most likely... Small point but hey, words matter



Could you not post it?


----------



## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 13, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Could you not post it?



"highly likely"


----------



## Supine (Apr 13, 2018)

fakeplasticgirl said:


> "highly likely"


----------



## rioted (Apr 13, 2018)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Coming from someone who accepts everything they (the cuddly-wuddly Russian state) say


Thats it! One side versus the other. You're either a Putin puppet, an Assadist apologist or a upholder of truth and peace. Give us some space! In the real world even Butchersapron is wrong!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Apr 13, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Well 'false-flag' is this week's word, isn't it



Word of the decade for your ilk.



DexterTCN said:


> If I've agreed with anything said by Russia I'm not aware of it.  The OPCW findings went against me?  How did that work then?  What did I say on it that was an opinion that put me on a side?   Your implying I'm pro-russia in this, that's a lie (and a bit jingoistic, in fact). Do you see this matter in the context of sides?



Not aware of it? Really? You're either really fucking thick or deliberately being obtuse. I suspect it's a little from both columns.  I've outlined where you've agreed with Russia in a couple of quotes I posted of yours above. You know it, I know, everyone on this thread knows your game.



DexterTCN said:


> I stand by the news reports I quoted and the undeniable fact that the british media reported BoJo saying it was the russians which is 100% proof of the british media reporting it was the russians.



Again, either really fucking thick or deliberately obtuse	



DexterTCN said:


> No-one pointed out fuck all about that picture that I'm aware of, someone suggested something, that's not pointing out.  (It was ages ago, don't really recall.)



Don't really recall eh? How convenient for you. You only need to read over the thread but you won't for reasons obvious to everyone.



DexterTCN said:


> My stance in this from the start in regards to the crime of poisoning...due process.
> 
> When leaders stand up in parliament and they say it has been confirmed it was a certain country committing a crime  that can lead us to war...then I've been here before and they were lying the last time (and this lot are worse).   In those days this place wasn't full of tories, obviously.



I repeat the point about you being thick or deliberately obtuse.  Perhaps English isn't your first language? Or maybe you had chicken pox on the day English comprehension was taught at your school?



DexterTCN said:


> And you yourself...have deliberately hand-picked some of my posts for the sake of contention and absolutely ignored 100% stone-cold solid facts such as Spectroscopy Now and Dave B Collum.



Handpicked? Yes, you asked me to provide evidence where you'd talked out of your arse and been the general conspiraloon windbag you are. I did so.



DexterTCN said:


> None of these say Russia didn't do it, Russia probably did.  But still...I want more proof than some tory appointed stooge telling me I have to take their, or your, word for it.



Oh now it's Russia probably did? You mean in the same way the UK state said Russia probably did it?  

A former Russian spy was attacked with a nerve agent made in Russia.  Russia is a state that passed a law that made it legal for Russian agents to murder, or attempt to murder, double agents and dissidents on foreign soil.  Lots of Russian double agents, oligarchs and dissidents have been murdered, or nearly murdered, on foreign soil in the last decade or so.  Putin goes on TV talking about how he can't forgive betrayal and how they'll swallow poison.  I could go on but all this points to 'Russia probably did it' - now bare in mind you're not going to get conclusive 100% smoking gun evidence because that's not how intelligence works.  What would convince you enough that it was, categorically, Russia though?



DexterTCN said:


> Are you here to discuss?  Or will we just stick to the loons be crazy verdict?



A little from both columns again.


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## rekil (Apr 13, 2018)

agricola said:


> I can only hope that the relevant "special unit" of the FSB is called the knob squad.




(also applies to any of dexter's posts)


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## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)

Listen mate...you rant away.


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## fakeplasticgirl (Apr 13, 2018)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Oh now it's Russia probably did? You mean in the same way the UK state said Russia probably did it?



hahahaha


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## DexterTCN (Apr 13, 2018)

Doctor Carrot said:


> your ilk....really fucking thick or deliberately being obtuse....everyone on this thread knows your game....really fucking thick or deliberately obtuse...thick or deliberately obtuse...Perhaps English isn't your first language?...English comprehension...talked out of your arse...conspiraloon windbag...




Cheers for the confirmation.


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## Doctor Carrot (Apr 13, 2018)

DexterTCN said:


> Cheers for the confirmation.



Engage in conspiraloonery, get called a conspiraloon. Wtf do you expect?

I was actually asking a serious question about your English comprehension because you've said, repeatedly 'The UK government have stated Russia carried out the attack' when in reality the UK government has said 'In all probability Russia carried out the attack.'  If you genuinely can't tell the difference between those statements, particularly when you've said 'Russia probably did it' then yes, I have to conclude you either skipped English comprehension class, English isn't your first language, you're being deliberately obtuse or you're just really fucking thick.


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## teqniq (Apr 27, 2018)

Novichok scientist fears for his life after claiming his lab developed nerve agent used in Salisbury attack


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## cupid_stunt (May 18, 2018)

Sergei Skripal has been discharged from hospital.


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## Waylon Jennings (May 18, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sergei Skripal has been discharged from hospital.



Only a few week ago the media said they're all going to kick the bucket/no known cure etc yada yada. what a load of bollocks.
*Top tip= Don't believe too much of the shit they bang out.


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## NoXion (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> Only a few week ago the media said they're all going to kick the bucket/no known cure etc yada yada. what a load of bollocks.
> *Top tip= Don't believe too much of the shit they bang out.



The dose makes the poison. I doubt that any of the media have any idea exactly how much of that shit Skripal was exposed to, nor what measures were available to and were undertaken by the hospital.

Not to mention of course that being discharged from hospital does not rule out having undergone life-changing injuries.


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## elbows (May 18, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sergei Skripal has been discharged from hospital.



Just in time to walk Meghan down the aisle!


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## krtek a houby (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> Only a few week ago the media said they're all going to kick the bucket/no known cure etc yada yada. what a load of bollocks.
> *Top tip= Don't believe too much of the shit they bang out.



Which media said that?


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## Waylon Jennings (May 18, 2018)

NoXion said:


> The dose makes the poison. I doubt that any of the media have any idea exactly how much of that shit Skripal was exposed to, nor what measures were available to and were undertaken by the hospital.
> 
> Not to mention of course that being discharged from hospital does not rule out having undergone life-changing injuries.



*Top tip no 2= Don't believe too much what the government tell you.


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## NoXion (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> *Top tip no 2= Don't believe too much what the government tell you.



What exactly am I believing that the government tells me? 

You seem all too ready to believe media sources that know about as much as the rest of us.


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## Waylon Jennings (May 18, 2018)

NoXion said:


> What exactly am I believing that the government tells me?
> 
> You seem all too ready to believe media sources that know about as much as the rest of us.



Did you read my first post?


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## Teaboy (May 18, 2018)

I have a strange feeling I know where this might be going...


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## NoXion (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> Did you read my first post?



Yes I did. Which is why I pointed out that the media knows Jack fucking Shit, along with the rest of us. We don't know how much of whatever it was that Skripal was exposed to. The investigation results haven't been made public, and many wouldn't believe them anyway. Would you?

Yet you've swallowed whole the media statements about Skripal's imminent death because... Why exactly?


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## Waylon Jennings (May 18, 2018)

NoXion said:


> Yet you've swallowed whole the media statements about Skripal's imminent death because... Why exactly?




I didn't believe it from the start. I was just trying to point out the shite the media and government told us.


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## elbows (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> I didn't believe it from the start. I was just trying to point out the shite the media and government told us.



Much better to invent your own shit to believe instead eh, grassroots.


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## rekil (May 18, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I have a strange feeling I know where this might be going...





Spoiler


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## krtek a houby (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> I didn't believe it from the start. I was just trying to point out the shite the media and government told us.



If you can recommend who is telling us the unshite, I'll gladly like your post


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## NoXion (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> I didn't believe it from the start. I was just trying to point out the shite the media and government told us.



You're expressing skepticism of the government on account of the fact that Skripal was discharged from hospital, because the same media you claim not to trust made predictions about his future health that turned out to be wrong.

Yeah, I think you've made quite some logical leaps there.


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## andysays (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> I didn't believe it from the start. I was just trying to point out the shite the media and government told us.


How do you know he's been released from hospital?

Come to that, how do you know he's was ever in hospital?


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## Teaboy (May 18, 2018)

If these loons automatically disbelief everything unless it was on RT or appeared on an obscure website which uses multi-colour comic sans it makes me wonder how they deal with everyday encounters with interactions.  I mean do they just argue with their doctor and dentist every time they suggest anything?


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## LDC (May 18, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> I mean do they just argue with their doctor and dentist every time they suggest anything?



Yes. Vaccinations.


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## Magnus McGinty (May 18, 2018)

Waylon Jennings said:


> Only a few week ago the media said they're all going to kick the bucket/no known cure etc yada yada. what a load of bollocks.
> *Top tip= Don't believe too much of the shit they bang out.



So the U.K. government were in on it but were that inept he actually survived? Awkward.


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## cupid_stunt (May 18, 2018)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Yes. Vaccinations.



And, mercury fillings.


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## Supine (May 18, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, mercury fillings.



Used as a tracking device no doubt


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## crossthebreeze (May 18, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> If these loons automatically disbelief everything unless it was on RT or appeared on an obscure website which uses multi-colour comic sans it makes me wonder how they deal with everyday encounters with interactions.  I mean do they just argue with their doctor and dentist every time they suggest anything?


Yes.  I know at least one conspiracy theory victim who seems unable to have a normal interaction with anyone that doesn't veer into arguing that the moon is hollow and everything on the news is fake. 
Also, not trusting doctors is pretty common (sometimes with understandable or rational reasons, often not), and very common within the conspiracy theory milieu - Alex Jones has got pretty rich off of pushing overpriced vitamin pills.


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## 2hats (May 23, 2018)

Yulia Skripal speaks...


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## krtek a houby (Jul 5, 2018)

Wiltshire pair poisoned by Novichok nerve agent

Bizarre


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## CRI (Jul 5, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Wiltshire pair poisoned by Novichok nerve agent
> 
> Bizarre


Cripes, that's scary.


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## krtek a houby (Jul 5, 2018)

CRI said:


> Cripes, that's scary.



Ooops, updated thread here:

Couple 'exposed to unknown substance' in Wiltshire town of Amesbury...


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## cupid_stunt (Jul 19, 2018)

BREAKING NEWS:



> Police believe they have identified the suspected perpetrators of the novichok attack on former spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia, according to the Press Association. Officers believe several Russians were involved in the attempted murder and say they are looking for more than one suspect.
> 
> "Investigators believe they have identified the suspected perpetrators of the Novichok attack through CCTV and have cross-checked this with records of people who entered the country around that time," a source close to the investigation said. They said investigators were "sure" the suspects were Russian.



Suspected perpetrators of Skripal novichok attack 'identified'


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## elbows (Mar 26, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Everyone of them the same beeleyites - this explains who and where that list comes from.
> 
> Oh dear indeed.



McKeigue has popped up in the news.



> *A British academic corresponded for months with a man who hinted he was a Russian agent, seeking help to discredit a group that gathers evidence of Syrian war crimes. *
> 
> Prof Paul McKeigue asked "Ivan" to help find evidence that the group's director worked for the CIA.
> 
> In fact "Ivan's" emails were written by staff of the very group Prof McKeigue was targeting.





> The Edinburgh University professor wanted information about a woman Cija's director might have slept with and asked whether he was a cocaine user.
> 
> He also asked for information about a list of British academics and journalists, including two who work for the BBC, and suggested to "Ivan" that "your office keeps an eye" on a journalist working for a Russian media organisation.





> He sent "Ivan" a draft of a critical report into Cija he had co-authored with two other members of the Working Group, Prof David Miller of Bristol University and Piers Robinson, a former professor at the University of Sheffield.





> The BBC journalists Prof McKeigue asked "Ivan" to investigate are a Syria producer and Chloe Hadjimatheou, reporter and presenter for the BBC Radio 4 Intrigue series, Mayday. It was during an investigation for Mayday that the BBC was able to read the email exchange.











						UK professor shared info with fake Russian agent
					

Paul McKeigue shared information with a man who hinted he was a Russian agent, to discredit an NGO.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## LDC (Mar 26, 2021)

elbows said:


> McKeigue has popped up in the news.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh dear, sounds like he's got just the cautious and very secure approach to security that he needs for a job with the GRU though, maybe he can apply.


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