# #occupy London....



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 2, 2011)

facebook group

OCCUPATION START: Saturday, October 15th!!
 GENERAL ASSEMBLY: Sunday 9th October, 4.30pm @ Jubilee Park
 - GA is for organizing things (see below). Please come!
 - Tube station: Waterloo; from there it's just a two min walk.

... Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/occupylondon
 Twitter: @OccupyLSX (www.twitter.com/#!/OccupyLSX)
 hashtags #OccupyLSX #OccupyLondon

 Come and join us for the General Assembly! Make your voice heard! There's a lot to discuss and organize. Everyone is very welcome to join us for the GA on Oct 9th. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you there 

 Alright you peaceful redeemers, rebels, anarchists, truthers, students, and utopian dreamers out there...

 We are a people-powered movement, protesting against the increasing social and economic injustice in this country. Since the financial crisis the government has made sure to maintain the status quo and let the people who caused this crisis get off scot-free, whilst conversely ensuring that the people of this country pay the price, in particular those most vulnerable. What we have in common is that we are the other 99%, that we want People over Profit, that we are making our voices heard against greed and corruption and for a democratic and just society. And we are doing that in a non-violent and peaceful way.

 A worldwide shift in revolutionary tactics is underway right now that bodes well for the future. The spirit of this fresh tactic, a fusion of Tahrir with the acampadas of Spain, is captured in this quote:

 The antiglobalization movement was the first step on the road. Back then our model was to attack the system like a pack of wolves. There was an alpha male, a wolf who led the pack, and those who followed behind. Now the model has evolved. Today we are one big swarm of people.
 — Raimundo Viejo, Pompeu Fabra University, Barcelona, Spain

 The beauty of this new formula, and what makes this novel tactic exciting, is its pragmatic simplicity: we talk to each other in various physical gatherings and virtual people's assemblies … we zero in on what our one demand will be, a demand that awakens the imagination and, if achieved, would propel us toward the real democracy of the future … and then we go out and seize a square of singular symbolic significance and put our asses on the line to make it happen...


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## smokedout (Oct 2, 2011)

truthers?


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## gunneradt (Oct 2, 2011)

look forward to the live streams

benefit fraud hotline will be ringing off the hook


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 2, 2011)

Isn't the LSE shut on a Saturday?


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 2, 2011)

smokedout said:


> truthers?


lulz.. i thought that too.. I just lifted the 'statement' as verbatim....
As it goes a few of them have appeared in the states as well as Ron Paul disciples 
ah well might make for some craic if the occupation drags on!!


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 2, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Isn't the LSE shut on a Saturday?


yup.. but I think the tactic is to get ready for the long haul...


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## sptme (Oct 2, 2011)

They need a non-facebook site asap. If face book don't like it they'll censor it.


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## smokedout (Oct 2, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> lulz.. i thought that too.. I just lifted the 'statement' as verbatim....



its not there by accident


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## sihhi (Oct 2, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> A worldwide shift in revolutionary tactics is underway right now that bodes well for the future. The spirit of this fresh tactic, a fusion of Tahrir with the acampadas of Spain, is captured in this quote:
> 
> The antiglobalization movement was the first step on the road. Back then our model was to attack the system like a pack of wolves. There was an alpha male, a wolf who led the pack, and those who followed behind. Now the model has evolved. Today we are one big swarm of people.
> — Raimundo Viejo, Pompeu Fabra University, Barcelona, Spain
> ...



That quote makes no sense. Didn't Seattle/Prague/Stop the City/Genoa involve a swarm of people?


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## kenny g (Oct 2, 2011)

sihhi said:


> That quote makes no sense. Didn't Seattle/Prague/Stop the City/Genoa involve a swarm of people?


who was the wolf who led the pack?


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## sihhi (Oct 2, 2011)

kenny g said:


> who was the wolf who led the pack?



Well, I was asking if it could be explained.


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 2, 2011)

sihhi said:


> That quote makes no sense. Didn't Seattle/Prague/Stop the City/Genoa involve a swarm of people?


ask them... dont shoot the messenger.....
get involved!


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## smokedout (Oct 2, 2011)

don't smell right


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## Frankie Jack (Oct 2, 2011)

Occupied London


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 2, 2011)

Frankie Jack said:


> Occupied London




As to the smell... i dunno... I know some of them involved and they are genuine... The info is there its up to people to decide what they wanna do....


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## sihhi (Oct 2, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> ask them... dont shoot the messenger.....
> get involved!



I asked because I thought I was missing something.
This quote
_



The antiglobalization movement was the first step on the road. Back then our model was to attack the system like a pack of wolves. There was an alpha male, a wolf who led the pack, and those who followed behind. Now the model has evolved. Today we are one big swarm of people.

Click to expand...

_


> — Raimundo Viejo, Pompeu Fabra University, Barcelona, Spain


in particular.

I don't have twitter or facebook so #OccupyLSX https://twitter.com/#!/OccupyLSX and https://www.facebook.com/occupylondon are meaningless for me.
Going to an assembly in Jubilee Park, quite far away, (where in Jubilee Park?, a corner somewhere else?) also seems pretty confused.
No request for borough or smaller local anti-cuts groups to send delegates - meaning 8 pay a tube fare instead of 1 delegate?

I think the quote is trying to appeal to the left/alternative crowd not the general public but, even on those terms, the quote is unclear to me.


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## editor (Oct 2, 2011)

Why would any credible protest group invite the fucking troofer loons into the fold?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 2, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> yup.. but I think the tactic is to get ready for the long haul...


wrong time of the year to be planning to camp outdoors for a sustained period of time (notwithstanding current peculiar climactic conditions) methinks possibly?!


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 2, 2011)

editor said:


> Why would any credible protest group invite the fucking troofer loons into the fold?


ffs.. as i said... dont shoot the messenger.....
I agree with ya as it goes....
looks like theres heaps of #occupy groups popping up all over the UK n Ireland thankfully..... Im just spreading the word.....


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 3, 2011)

Manchester....



> Town is now occupied...Police have consented to tonight possibly tomorrow...Three tents...shelter and a place to charge phones...PLEASE COME DOWN TO ABLERT SQUARE; LETS OCCUPY...MANCHESTER IS NOW OCCUPIED...BRING URSELF TO ALBERT SQUARE...BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO SEE...


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## smokedout (Oct 3, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> wrong time of the year to be planning to camp outdoors for a sustained period of time (notwithstanding current peculiar climactic conditions) methinks possibly?!



where as well, there's barely any open space round there, no toilets etc

not been thought through at all, no attempts to liaise with groups currently active and crap like this unchallenged all over the wall

*Remember we have to not let the powers hijack this..they are gonna say we are against capitalism and for socialism and all that kind of bullshit....We got to make it clear we are against the Central banks..the Fed...The RBA...Jp Morgan..etc etc ...all the other wall street scum!!*


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 3, 2011)

smokedout said:


> *Remember we have to not let the powers hijack this..they are gonna say we are against capitalism and for socialism and all that kind of bullshit....We got to make it clear we are against the Central banks..the Fed...The RBA...Jp Morgan..etc etc ...all the other wall street scum!!*


omg 
words fail me.....


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## smokedout (Oct 3, 2011)

in fairness someone called multiverse hierophantis did reply to his alex jones link



> ALEX JONES is too angry to have my respect or pay attention .....what a brainwash ... the issues go beyond dissolving central banks and fed res ....its time to re-shape society and take it to the next level RE-LOVE-ATION



man


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 3, 2011)

editor said:


> Why would any credible protest group invite the fucking troofer loons into the fold?



Im getting info of a heap of UK #occupy events...
What would be the best way to post details rather than clog up this forum.... one #occupyuk events thread???
Manchester started y/day and are encamped in Albert Square at the mo....


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## editor (Oct 3, 2011)

Maybe separate threads for the bigger events that are more likely to go ahead (London, Manchester) and then a general one?


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## g force (Oct 3, 2011)

Will they actually find the right building this time?


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## A Dashing Blade (Oct 3, 2011)

g force said:


> Will they actually find the right building this time?


Doubtful 'cos the old building has been refurbed, think Toronto Dominion are in there now.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 3, 2011)

Global Insurrection Against Banker Occupation.

http://maxkeiser.com/2011/10/02/max-keiser-and-stacy-herberts-giabo-communique-1/


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## elbows (Oct 4, 2011)

A glance at the international page of occupy together suggests there is an Occupy Norwich event!

http://www.occupytogether.org/events/international/


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## BigTom (Oct 5, 2011)

That'd probably be will2403


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## Will2403 (Oct 5, 2011)

oi!  it's not actually! i'm going to the london one 

i think it's this guy, well he's an admin, so if you wanna assassinate one of the ringleaders, it might as well be him 
http://www.facebook.com/magicalmelvin

glad to see people are finally getting a clue. 6 months late, but as they say, better late than never. it's kinda tough and a bit frustrating being so far ahead of the game, but that's life.

if you attend and we fail, you don't go home with nothing... you get this sticker:







nawwww, ain't they cute!


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## Will2403 (Oct 5, 2011)

nick shaxson knows the score.


so do al jazeera!
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/09/20119281581769464.html



> That’s why we all need to join in. Not just by liking it on Facebook, signing a petition at *change.org* or retweeting protest photos, but by going down to the occupation itself.
> 
> There is great potential here. Sure, it’s a far cry from Tahrir Square or even Wisconsin. But there is the nucleus of a revolt that could shake America’s power structure as much as the Arab world has been upended.
> 
> Instead of one to two thousand people a day joining in the occupation there needs to be tens of thousands of people protesting the fat cats driving Bentleys and drinking thousand-dollar bottles of champagne with money they looted from the financial crisis and then from the bailouts while Americans literally *die on the streets*.





> *'Pantomime progressivism'*
> Perhaps their views were coloured by the _*New York Times* _article deriding protestors for wishing to “pantomime progressivism” and “Gunning for Wall Street with faulty aim”. Many of the criticisms boil down to “a lack of clear messaging.”
> 
> But what’s wrong with that? A fully formed movement is not going to spring from the ground. It has to be created. And who can say what exactly needs to be done? We are not talking about ousting a dictator; though some say we want to oust the dictatorship of capital.
> ...


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## ddraig (Oct 5, 2011)

why are you being a cunt and outing someone as an organiser? 
doing their job for them or what!


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## Will2403 (Oct 5, 2011)

lol wut?

it's on fb. it's public knowledge.

 yourself.


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## butchersapron (Oct 5, 2011)

Not sure nick shaxson needs outing! He's a very famous author.


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## ddraig (Oct 5, 2011)

carry on then!


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 11, 2011)

Any news on this?


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## stuff_it (Oct 11, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> Any news on this?


http://occupylondon.org.uk/

15th of this month.


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## where to (Oct 12, 2011)

mainstream media are giving this some hype now.  the most popular comments on the Daily Mail are all wildly in favour of these protests.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tre-inspired-Occupy-Wall-Street-campaign.html


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## Mapped (Oct 12, 2011)

Shall we get the V masks in for next month?


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 12, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> Shall we get the V masks in for next month?


i hear there's gonna be heap of them there available....


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## Mapped (Oct 12, 2011)

Good news


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## where to (Oct 13, 2011)

4500 going according to their facebook page.  this may be quite big.


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## smokedout (Oct 13, 2011)

Francis Tanseco
*Can someone bring some INVOCATION/prayers and EXORCISE the buildings to be OCCUPIED, these buildings are full of evil entity it will zapped away all your energy. Somebody has to do exorsicism on these buildings comes Saturday.*

Peter Spencer I think you have something there, do you know about the veseca piscis, sacred geometry look it up. Use the shape and fill the overlap with energy, you could draw it on the floor in chalk and and stand on its outline and exude pure love. they will not stand a chance.

Peter Spencer are you aware that sacred geometry has been used in the city and the architectural decorations of the buildings, They are truly protected by magic which I believe can be hijacked and used against them. see

Francis Tanseco I have my own exercises for protecting myself and others through meditation using those geometries...its great

cosmic!


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## krink (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm taking tin foil hats to sell. gonna make a killing.


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## smokedout (Oct 14, 2011)

oh dear - notices have gone up around paternoster square saying this is private property fuck off basically, now there's a big argument on facebook with the hippies and posh kids saying we shouldnt go there in case we all get arrested and it looks bad in the papers


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## shaman75 (Oct 14, 2011)

Does anyone know if 'trespass' can be dealt with by the police?  This seems to be the word on the posters...






CJAPO 1994 seems to suggest it can only be done if they have lots of vehicles on the land, use threatening behaviour/ language or damage the property.



> 61 Power to remove trespassers on land.
> (1)If the senior police officer present at the scene reasonably believes that two or more persons are trespassing on land and are present there with the common purpose of residing there for any period, that reasonable steps have been taken by or on behalf of the occupier to ask them to leave and—
> (a)that any of those persons has caused damage to the land or to property on the land or used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour towards the occupier, a member of his family or an employee or agent of his, or
> (b)that those persons have between them six or more vehicles on the land,
> he may direct those persons, or any of them, to leave the land and to remove any vehicles or other property they have with them on the land.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/61

Is there anything else out there that provides powers?


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## BigTom (Oct 14, 2011)

trespass is a civil offence, aggravated trespass (CJA 1994, section 68 iirc) is a criminal act.
trespass becomes aggravated trespass if you trespass with the intention of harrasing or intimidating someone, or disrupting someone in the course of their lawful duties.

(ianal)


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## Ground Elder (Oct 14, 2011)

Aggravated Trespass - s68 CJA&PO Act 94

Big Tom beat me to it


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## smokedout (Oct 14, 2011)

as well as this there are laws on public processions, obstruction etc, as well as countless bylaws in the square mile

any who thought that it was going to be legal and unopposed to set up a camp in the city is a fruitcake, we don't live in fucking trumpton


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## free spirit (Oct 14, 2011)

pre-emptive strike against the square being legally squatted, although they really should have put the owners name and address on it I'd have thought.

just slap a section 6 notice up anyway, and point out that you're aware it's private land, and that you are claiming it as the owners of the land being as you're not aware of any prior claims to the land. Should get you a few days grace at least before the courts and police can actually be involved, as they can't throw you off without the court determining who actually owns the land if you're contesting that.



> *LEGAL WARNING*
> Section 6 Criminal Law Act 1977
> As amended by Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994
> TAKE NOTICE
> ...



oh, and can someone tell whoever's scared of getting nicked to grow some balls or not get involved, as chances are fairly high of people getting nicked at some point, and they need to accept it and build it into their thinking and plan for it if they're going to be even slightly effective. This means having legal observers, legal support teams, volunteers to meet those who've been nicked when they're released from court etc etc that way being nicked isn't such a scary proposition, meaning people are more prepared to risk it if need be.

the anti globalisation movement they apparently deride had around 5-600 nicked at gleneagles out of 4-5000, and thousands of others at various protests around the world, so if they want to give it the big I am in their blurb, they need to not start winging at the start about the possibility of a night in the cells IMHO.

Good luck to whoever's involved, I'd not be anyway, but definitely wouldn't given their statement about the anti-globalisation movement, which to me is just disrespectful bollocks. If they get millions on the streets and change the world, I'll admit they might have had a point, but while it's 3 tents in manchester telling the world manchester is now occupied I'm thinking we were a little more swarmlike and global in our reach.


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## shaman75 (Oct 14, 2011)

> Anti-capitalist protesters are threatening to storm the City tomorrow to launch an "autumn of action" against its banks.
> 
> Activists are being urged to set up camp in the Square Mile in an effort to stage a repeat of the recent anti-Wall Street protests in New York.
> 
> ...



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ployed-for-wall-st-copycat-protest-in-city.do


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## shaman75 (Oct 14, 2011)

Thanks for the info btw folks.

Just found this blog post too, about the assembly aspect: http://thereturnofthepublic.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/talk-amongst-yourselves/


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## BigTom (Oct 14, 2011)

free spirit said:


> Good luck to whoever's involved, I'd not be anyway, but definitely wouldn't given their statement about the anti-globalisation movement, which to me is just disrespectful bollocks. If they get millions on the streets and change the world, I'll admit they might have had a point, but while it's 3 tents in manchester telling the world manchester is now occupied I'm thinking we were a little more swarmlike and global in our reach.



What did they say about the anti-globalisation movement? do you have a link? that's very dissapointing as I'd see it as the most directly comparable movement, and one they should be learning from and respecting - they will piss off a lot of very competent activists by doing that..


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2011)

Excited as I am, and admiring of all of all comrades involved in getting this exciting project underway, I think a concern needs to be addressed early doors:

It is inevtitable that street based occupations will attract street based people. Some of their politics may be sound. Others may not. Some will be vulnerable, others will feel intimidating and cause genuine safety concerns. This is not alarmist prejudiced bullshit, I am not going to jeapodise people's anonymitity by going it to how I know that it aint. What happens if a bunch of dodgy lowlife decide to hand out and run the show, or just create a bad impression and get threatening etc. Can you force them to fuck off? Why should they? I hope people realise this concern is well founded and sincere, and that comrades can give it some thought in advance of such instances arising. 

Separately, with regard to other occupations in this wave, I just don't sense the same level of sneeriness from the public or even the press as there would have been in the past.

I sense a turning of the tide. Quite where it will lead is too early to tell. Such occupations shouldnt respond to early pressure to draw up "manifestos" in my opinion. It is the 24 hour media cycle that exerts these pressures. Such short termism isnt a million miles from the market madness that rightfully sees more people taking to the streets in this fashion.
Love and light to all, and best wishes for tomorrow. If I had to sacrifice Welsh victory for an occupation success I would do it in a heartbeat.


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## free spirit (Oct 14, 2011)

BigTom said:


> What did they say about the anti-globalisation movement? do you have a link? that's very dissapointing as I'd see it as the most directly comparable movement, and one they should be learning from and respecting - they will piss off a lot of very competent activists by doing that..


from the quote in the OP


> The antiglobalization movement was the first step on the road. Back then our model was to attack the system like a pack of wolves. There was an alpha male, a wolf who led the pack, and those who followed behind. Now the model has evolved. Today we are one big swarm of people.
> — Raimundo Viejo, Pompeu Fabra University, Barcelona, Spain



apparently we were all blindly following some unnamed alpha male leader or some such bollocks. Maybe I'm being oversensitive here, but given that the consensus decision making process they're using is the exact same process used by dissent, and I've seen it used by earth first, RTS etc in the 90's and it was fairly common throughout the anti globalisation movement worldwide, I'm fucking baffled by this statement and why it's being used on a call out now. Seems at best pretty clueless.


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## BigTom (Oct 14, 2011)

cheers.. I thought it might be that after I posted.. I agree with you really, I don't understand that statement, and I was only ever involved with rts/anti-globalisation stuff as a participant going along to some of the major protests.


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 14, 2011)

That statement is utter bollocks but, to be fair, that is just one quote from one indvidual, not worth spitting feathers about.

To me this seems very much like the anti-capitlalist protests of 1999 - 2001 mark 2. Cos events have proved we were absolutely bang on the money.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2011)

i'm washing my socks tomorrow, in a spirit of occupying them the following week


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2011)

why?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 14, 2011)

has politics really become such a hollow shell?


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## shaman75 (Oct 14, 2011)

I agree about the quote. Translated from either Spanish or Catalan as well I should think.

A lot of this #occupy stuff spreads back to the Spanish occupations back in May, which in themselves were influenced by the occupations in Egypt and other countries in the region.

As far as I can gather, the occupation will centre around assemblies, to involve all the people there in trying to find solutions.


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## eoin_k (Oct 15, 2011)

Will John Galt be there?


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

That terrible pompous self-regarding historically ignorant quote was used on the original Occupy Wall St call out as well.


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## smokedout (Oct 15, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It is inevtitable that street based occupations will attract street based people. Some of their politics may be sound. Others may not. Some will be vulnerable, others will feel intimidating and cause genuine safety concerns. This is not alarmist prejudiced bullshit, I am not going to jeapodise people's anonymitity by going it to how I know that it aint. What happens if a bunch of dodgy lowlife decide to hand out and run the show, or just create a bad impression and get threatening etc. Can you force them to fuck off? Why should they? I hope people realise this concern is well founded and sincere, and that comrades can give it some thought in advance of such instances arising.



omg what if some real poor people turn up


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 15, 2011)

Is he talking about the movement being hijacked by street drinkers?

'Vote Frosty Jack!'


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## Blagsta (Oct 15, 2011)

There is an issue about how do you deal with anti-social elements. This was an issue with road protest camps, especially M11.


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## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

it has been an issue with most new social movements, activists end up as social workers, maybe not a bad thing in itself, but taken too far,...


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## eoin_k (Oct 15, 2011)

Looks like it has started:
http://yfrog.com/kgzg0ceqj


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## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

Some of these occupy events are reminding me of the 'Yippies'


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

smokedout said:


> truthers?


Truthers' are easily dealt with, as shown by the recent occupywallstreet protest.
Just make a sign, stand next to them, and form a one-person protest against them.
It's proved to be very, VERY effective.






http://www.salon.com/2011/10/12/anti_semite_gets_called_out_at_occupy_wall_st/singleton/


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Truthers' are easily dealt with, as shown by the recent occupywallstreet protest.
> Just make a sign, stand next to them, and form a one-person protest against them.
> It's proved to be very, VERY effective.
> 
> ...


Totally different - there's no way anti-semites can be seen to be on 'our' side - truthers are seen by many to be on 'our' side - despite the sort of determined ignorance to many of the themes running through these clowns theories this entails.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

smokedout said:


> truthers?


Any 'Truthers' that turn out can be easily refuted, as this recent one-person protest at Occupy Wall Street proved.





Image from: http://www.salon.com/2011/10/12/anti_semite_gets_called_out_at_occupy_wall_st/singleton/

And rightwingnuts who might try to imply the protests are flawed or marred, are neatly deconstructed and dismissed here by Sad Red Earth:


> The video the three have foisted on us purports to show significant and rampant anti-Semitism at the Occupy Wall Street protests. It is a blatant and paltry distortion.
> 
> It is a regrettable nearly timeless truth that wherever attacks on the financially powerful are made, there will appear among the assembled motley of attackers some who will advance old, ugly canards about Jewish influence among the world’s wealthy. It is a regrettable current truth that wherever general left side protest is made there will appear within it some element protesting against Israel and for, as it happens in the video, Gaza. NONETHELESS, what the manipulators of this video have managed to come up with, after over a month of protest in New York City, and now in scores of American cities, is a mere one-minute assemblage. It is dynamically edited so that one may be led to believe that Occupy Wall Street is a veritable cauldron of anti-Semitic hatred. In truth, it shows, edited to appear multiple times and so increase the sense of number, only three incidents, one of which is the Gaza sign that we must acknowledge as a breed apart from the anti-Semitism. That leaves two – two incidents of anti-Semitic behavior noted among many weeks and cities of protest and thousands of protestors.
> The footage of the uglier of the two anti-Semitic incidents is culled from a longer video that has been on the web for over a week, and which culminates with an interview of the young man who berates and insults the old Jew. What is clear from the interview is that the guy is a loner and an outlier besides an ignorant asshole. What is clear from the Emergency Committee’s video is that its purpose is no emergency work on behalf of Israel, but the low and commonplace trashing of domestic political opponents, as it attempts to connect such as President Obama and Nancy Pelosi to the protests, and through the protests to the anti-Semitic and Gaza supportive elements. The video also belittles the protestors as a mob, and as such declares its plutocratic contempt.


 
http://sadredearth.com/the-putrid-cynicism-of-the-emergency-committee-for-israel/


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 15, 2011)

*Live stream: *http://the-alternative.co.uk/news/occupy-london-live-streams-video/

http://bambuser.com/channel/studentprotestlondon/broadcast/2045807


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Totally different - there's no way anti-semites can be seen to be on 'our' side - truthers are seen by many to be on 'our' side - despite the sort of determined ignorance to many of the themes running through these clowns theories this entails.


The manner of dealing with any visuals that 'truthers' or any other conspiracy theorist protestors (incl. antisemitic conspiraracy theories about Jews) produce from their arses, which could then be used against the movement, is the same.


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

And then the truthers come up with their counter-signs en masse - then the story is the internal battles between loons and other occupiers, and the turthers agenda is put forward to rubbish the whole thing. Fantastic.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> truthers are seen by many to be on 'our' side - despite the sort of determined ignorance to many of the themes running through these clowns theories this entails.


Truthers are not seen by many to be on side. What a crass statement.


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Truthers are not seen by many to be on side. What a crass statement.


Yes they are - there's even been posts on this board defending their presence here and in NY. The organisers call out explicitly asked truthers to turn out. I'd like you to tell me in the light of this why you think my post is crass?

No answer to the post above then?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

*taps watch*


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Totally different - there's no way anti-semites can be seen to be on 'our' side - truthers are seen by many to be on 'our' side - despite the sort of determined ignorance to many of the themes running through these clowns theories this entails.


yeh. truthers are more intelligent than blissett gives them credit for, they aren't always immediately obvious as the loons they are.


----------



## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

scuffles already, sad really,


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

treelover said:


> scuffles already, sad really,


i don't see why. a minor dispute between butchers and me and blissett is - i would have thought - par for the course here.


----------



## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

yeah, you know i meant in London...


----------



## Boycey (Oct 15, 2011)

g force said:


> Will they actually find the right building this time?



aldwych right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

treelover said:


> yeah, you know i meant in London...


yeh? link or stfu. there was a little bit on sky news about this a minute ago, showing an entirely peaceful scene and not mentioning any scuffles - and sky are usually very good at picking up that sort of thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

and there's been a spot more on sky, showing a couple of level 2 or level 1 vans beside the crowd, but neither footage, mention or indication of any trouble.

it's not j18 you know


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

& there's nothing on the guardian's 'minute by minute' coverage. treelover - have you a source or are you simply spouting shit? i think we should be told.


----------



## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

I said scuffles not fights, on bambuser, now they are saying they are being kettle

http://the-alternative.co.uk/news/occupy-london-live-streams-video/


----------



## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

'The police are now changing into full riot gear, suggesting they may be about to adopt more forceful tactics with the protesters, says Mark Townsend.'

Guardian

a very bad day for democracy, these are very peaceful protesters


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm too done in for this today and I'm definitely not in the mood for a fucking kettle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

editor said:


> I'm too done in for this today and I'm definitely not in the mood for a fucking kettle.


mind yourself and good luck


----------



## Badger Kitten (Oct 15, 2011)

Pops in from where I am thousands of miles away south of Cuba to say well done all


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

Badger Kitten said:


> Pops in from where I am thousands of miles away south of Cuba to say well done all


Hello again! Hope you're well!

I've got some friends who are at the protest so I'll hopefully putting up a blog post soon.


----------



## Mapped (Oct 15, 2011)

Good luck to everyone there  Trying to keep a low profile at the moment re: getting arrested and smacked round the head with a truncheon, but I'll be getting involved soon I hope


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

treelover said:


> I said scuffles not fights, on bambuser, now they are saying they are being kettle
> 
> http://the-alternative.co.uk/news/occupy-london-live-streams-video/


yes but still no evidence for scuffles aside from your own word, which i am not disposed to trust.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Yes they are - there's even been posts on this board defending their presence here and in NY. The organisers call out explicitly asked truthers to turn out. I'd like you to tell me in the light of this why you think my post is crass?



Show me this posts/thread (or clue what to search for) & explicit call  from organisers pls. Can't answer til I know what u know.  thax


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yes but still no evidence for scuffles aside from your own word, which i am not disposed to trust.


Met tweets:



> There have been some incidents of missiles being thrown at police and protestors have tried to breach police lines





> There has been one arrest for assault on police





> The rumour about Julian Assange being arrested are false


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 15, 2011)

smokedout said:


> omg what if some real poor people turn up



As it happens I am both poor and real. It's an awkward issue of course, but a real one as I was speaking to someone directly affected 2 days ago. Any successful occ will, as a bi product, probably end up doing an unpaid social services function. Speaking to the issue would be more helpful than smarty pants sarcasm.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 15, 2011)

Erm... Why has the #occupylsx hashtag dissapeared from trends on Twitter?

Dodgy!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Show me this posts/thread (or clue what to search for) & explicit call from organisers pls. Can't answer til I know what u know. thax


Well, there's the OP in this very thread for starters. An op which presumably you read as you managed to 'like' it.



> Come and join us for the General Assembly! Make your voice heard! There's a lot to discuss and organize. Everyone is very welcome to join us for the GA on Oct 9th. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you there
> 
> Alright you peaceful redeemers, rebels, anarchists, truthers, students, and utopian dreamers out there...



Thax


----------



## rekil (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Show me this posts/thread (or clue what to search for) & explicit call from organisers pls. Can't answer til I know what u know. thax





copliker said:


> He [Immortal Technique] is a conspiraloon/truther. Illuminati this illuminati that.





Rutita1 said:


> Who cares?...his commentary above was spot on!





DotCommunist said:


> sound head.


This sort of thing is not acceptable.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Well, there's the OP in this very thread for starters. An op which presumably you read as you managed to 'like' it.
> 
> Thax


Thanx for pointing it out - I'd missed that originally and expect others did too


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

copliker said:


> This sort of thing is not acceptable.


Agree


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Erm... Why has the #occupylsx hashtag dissapeared from trends on Twitter?
> 
> Dodgy!


#occupywallstreet didn't 'trend' in the US either


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

Some photos from the protest:
http://www.urban75.org/blog/occupy-the-stock-exchange-london-protest-underway-photos/


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> #occupywallstreet didn't 'trend' in the US either



The strange thing is that it's trending worldwide, but isn't trending in the UK.   I'm not a conspiracy theorist but......


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

editor said:


> Why would any credible protest group invite the fucking troofer loons into the fold?


I checked on the linked facebook group, and there's no mention of 'troofers' on their call to protest from the info page.

So then I checked on the linked website, and again, no mention of 'troofers' in their call to join the worldwide throng of OCCUPYers.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I checked on the linked facebook group, and there's no mention of 'troofers' on their call to protest from the info page.
> 
> So then I checked on the linked website, and again, no mention of 'troofers' in their call to join the worldwide throng of OCCUPYers.


It's there in the opening post though:


> Alright you peaceful redeemers, rebels, anarchists, *truthers*, students, and utopian dreamers out there...


----------



## rekil (Oct 15, 2011)

editor said:


> It's there in the opening post though:


It's all over the web. Eg, indymedia.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

editor said:


> It's there in the opening post though:


Yeah. Pity that's in the OP - what's written by the actual organisers is far more inclusive.

The 'official' blurb says:


> "Try to come with a friend or group of friends. If you are thinking of staying for a while bring plenty of food and water, wrap up warm and you may want to bring tents and a sleeping bag.
> 
> Bring your energy and excitement, and be ready to create a better world!"



Is it possible to change the OP to reflect the OCCUPY call, rather than some mangled blurb that google-matches U75 to 911trutherIckeatemyZOGhamster websites?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Yeah. Pity that's in the OP - what's written by the actual organisers is far more inclusive.
> 
> The 'official' blurb says:


What, they only said one single thing over the last few weeks did they? Clearly, and this thread is evidence of it, they didn't.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

copliker said:


> It's all over the web. Eg, indymedia.


And as part of localised (i.e. U75) protest against troofer dufus types associating with the OCCUPY movement, then the OP can be changed to reflect the actual OCCUPY blurb as it stands today.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

The 'truthers' phrase was posted far and wide all over the web, so I certainly have no inclination to airbrush it out of history.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> And as part of localised (i.e. U75) protest against troofer dufus types associating with the OCCUPY movement, then the OP can be changed to reflect the actual OCCUPY blurb as it stands today.


Pointless stalinism


----------



## dylans (Oct 15, 2011)

The Rome protests are turning violent.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

editor said:


> The 'truthers' phrase was posted far and wide all over the web, so I certainly have no inclination to airbrush it out of history.


Ok. It was posted to about 25 or so mainly fringe locations - not that many in the grand scheme of things


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Pointless stalinism


Hardly pointless and not stalinist either to suggest a change of OP to the non-troofer one(s).

I unliked the OP when told it contained a call to troofers.
There are other announcements elsewhere on the web which don't have troofer blurb in, so I *like* those instead.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

But you still want to change history? It's not all about what _you_ 'like' -it's about an accurate record of what happened.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> But you still want to change history? It's not all about what _you_ 'like' -it's about an accurate record of what happened.


No, I don't want to change history. You pointed it out. You complained about my response to your pointing it out. Basically, no matter how I respond to you, you won't be satisfied, so get off my back, mack.
All it says to me is where the OP gets their information from. Don't make a big deal out of it. It's not about me. I didn't start the thread, and if I had, it wouldn't have had any troofer blurb in it - I'd have used the non-troofer blurb.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Woo hoo! http://twitter.com/#!/search/#OccupyLSX is now trending


----------



## rekil (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I didn't start the thread, and if I had, it wouldn't have had any troofer blurb in it - I'd have used the non-troofer blurb.


That's fair enough. Shocking stuff from AKA to begin with.


AKA pseudonym said:


> lulz.. i thought that too.. I just lifted the 'statement' as verbatim....
> As it goes a few of them have appeared in the states as well as Ron Paul disciples
> ah well might make for some craic if the occupation drags on!!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> No, I don't want to change history. You pointed it out. You complained about my response to your pointing it out. Basically, no matter how I respond to you, you won't be satisfied, so get off my back, mack.
> All it says to me is where the OP gets their information from. Don't make a big deal out of it. It's not about me. I didn't start the thread, and if I had, it wouldn't have had any troofer blurb in it - I'd have used the non-troofer blurb.


What? So you ask for evidence of occupy people welcoming truthers - because my claim that they did was 'crass' - i give it to you and you say _I wouldn't have done that_. That's it is it? No change to your original claim, no recognition that you got it wrong?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Apparently Julian 'Left Behind' Asswipe got people to recite 'I am an individual'


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What? So you ask for evidence of occupy people welcoming truthers - because my claim that they did was 'crass' - i give it to you and you say _I wouldn't have done that_. That's it is it? No change to your original claim, no recognition that you got it wrong?


You must be bored. All that is, is evidence of internet chinese-whisper effect - of people like AKA copying verbatim from wherever they've seen the troofer-welcoming-blurb, or of troofer trolls posting the same blurb o their 25 fave fringe sites. It's not evidence of troofers being welcomed by occupy people, no more than a few antisemitic wankers at occupywallstreet was evidence that the occupy movement welcomes antisemites. FFS. I posted some important points made by Sad Red Earth earlier, and stand by those. As finance/wealth is the focal point, then there is bound to be conspiracy theorists crawling out to stamp their fringe loonery on the events. Fringe loons are going to appear. They're best dealt with in unusual ways (like that one-man protest bloke did with his 'asshole' sign). So get off my back about it, mack!


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Back to the protest ...
A well prepared protestor has just renamed Paternoster Square to Tahrir Square.

Well prepared,  because of these notices: http://yfrog.com/odarkvbj

For today, there is temporarily no such place as Paternoster Square.

Pic here http://moby.to/tlsadz


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Pictures here from the peaceful Australian Occupy Perth protests: http://www.demotix.com/news/874800/occupy-perth-protest


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You must be bored. All that is, is evidence of internet chinese-whisper effect - of people like AKA copying verbatim from wherever they've seen the troofer-welcoming-blurb, or of troofer trolls posting the same blurb o their 25 fave fringe sites. It's not evidence of troofers being welcomed by occupy people, no more than a few antisemitic wankers at occupywallstreet was evidence that the occupy movement welcomes antisemites. FFS. I posted some important points made by Sad Red Earth earlier, and stand by those. As finance/wealth is the focal point, then there is bound to be conspiracy theorists crawling out to stamp their fringe loonery on the events. Fringe loons are going to appear. They're best dealt with in unusual ways (like that one-man protest bloke did with his 'asshole' sign). So get off my back about it, mack!


Oh, you've edited in some weird unconnected stuff a fair bit later. You must be more bored than me. And no, the link and OP is there - it wouldn't be possible for this to be chinese whispers - unless you misunderstand what the game is. This is the start point.

The rest, well, it's waffle designed to obscure.


----------



## BlackArab (Oct 15, 2011)

Occupy Bristol happening now on College Green.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)




----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You must be bored. All that is, is evidence of internet chinese-whisper effect - of people like AKA copying verbatim from wherever they've seen the troofer-welcoming-blurb, or of troofer trolls posting the same blurb o their 25 fave fringe sites. It's not evidence of troofers being welcomed by occupy people, no more than a few antisemitic wankers at occupywallstreet was evidence that the occupy movement welcomes antisemites. FFS. I posted some important points made by Sad Red Earth earlier, and stand by those. As finance/wealth is the focal point, then there is bound to be conspiracy theorists crawling out to stamp their fringe loonery on the events. Fringe loons are going to appear. They're best dealt with in unusual ways (like that one-man protest bloke did with his 'asshole' sign). So get off my back about it, mack!


No they're not and i said why. You're yet to get back to me on that - claiming that you needed to me to provide you with a few things before commenting. I did and you haven't.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 15, 2011)

Can i just clarify that when i posted the OP, i 'lifted' the info from 2 of the first FB events/pages set up... I kept the text as was.... I have pointed out that adding the 'truther' bit was imo too all-encompassing... Though it was there, and who am i to censor other groups 'rallying calls'
tbh: I would have a slight bit more respect for anyone who actually attends the protests, than keyboard warriors making a big issue over trivial text... acions speak more than words!
as you were!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Can i just clarify that when i posted the OP, i 'lifted' the info from 2 of the first FB events/pages set up... I kept the text as was.... I have pointed out that adding the 'truther' bit was imo too all-encompassing... Though it was there, and who am i to censor other groups 'rallying calls'
> tbh: I would have a slight bit more respect for anyone who actually attends the protests, than keyboard warriors making a big issue over trivial text... acions speak more than words!
> as you were!


Posting via force of your mind then? And it's not about trivial text, the OP is neither here nor there, it's came from a discussion of how to actually organise these things. Don't assume the interest is in passing.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No they're not and i said why. You're yet to get back to me on that - claiming that you needed to me to provide you with a few things before commenting. I did and you haven't.



I commented you loonspud.
I stand by the post I quoted by Sad Red Earth about people who want to discredit the entire movement based on a few loons, and of the necessity of challenging at street-level (like the 'asshole' sign).

Glasgow now occupied


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Posting via force of your mind then? And it's not about trivial text, the OP is neither here nor there, it's came from a discussion of how to actually organise these things. Don't assume the interest is in passing.


Posting via police restrictions of where i can and not be.....


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I commented you loonspud.
> I stand by the post I quoted by Sad Red Earth about people who want to discredit the entire movement based on a few loons, and of the necessity of challenging at street-level (like the 'asshole' sign).
> 
> Glasgow now occupied


And you've failed to deal with my point of how this is different and how following your suggested action would have different results, ones that would effectively undermine the occupation and allow it to be used to further a truther agenda. No answer yet.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

The Met are feeling chuffed with themselves:



> The policing operation in London has helped people to enjoy a peaceful protest
> 
> http://twitter.com/#!/CO11MetPolice


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2011)

Occupations in europe (and north africa)


----------



## xes (Oct 15, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Occupations in europe (and north africa)


that's a pretty picture.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 15, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Occupations in europe (and north africa)



left out Belfast... I guess theres a heap of protests missing for now...


----------



## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

sadly some of them will be three men, or women and a dog, Hungary/Budapest for instance..


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

interesting to see the fit's subtlety today, with none of the ones i saw wearing the blue topped tabard, even the ones with the camera on the stick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Back to the protest ...
> A well prepared protestor has just renamed Paternoster Square to Tahrir Square.
> 
> Well prepared, because of these notices: http://yfrog.com/odarkvbj
> ...



[pedant]the city of westminster, where the sign alleges the square is, is different from the city of london[/pedant]


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

editor said:


> The Met are feeling chuffed with themselves:


Made me smile to hear them say that today passed off without major incident


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Made me smile to hear them say that today passed off without major incident


Does the statements that they are hemming in the protest Kinda defeat the object?
Is the point not to move... #occupy?

I believe things are getting naughty in Italy...


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Does the statements that they are hemming in the protest Kinda defeat the object?
> Is the point not to move... #occupy?
> 
> I believe things are getting naughty in Italy...


Police in London have been trying to move people on before nightfall, but the protestors were refusing, although some are claiming that they tried to leave but couldn't. Not being there it's not easy to verify what's happening. One report says the police are gearing up to disperse everyone. Police could prob do with practice at that as they don't often seem to get the balance right at these larger protests 

All told, the Police have been okay today - 3 arrests only so far. Even the Daily Fail did a neutral report on the global occupy protests 

Afaik, there is are Cathedral services tomorrow from early morning, going on all day as it's the Christian holy day (Sunday) tomorrow, so it probably gets very busy @St Paul's.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Dozens of Occupy Wall Street people apparently getting arrested at Washington Square CitiBank for trying to simultaneously close accounts! Now that's my kind of protest  (except I like my bank and ain't about to close my account with it).


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

Latest Met tweet:


> Officers are at the steps of St Paul's Cathedral to prevent any criminal damage to the building


Yes. I bet those protesters really want to smash St Paul's up.


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2011)

> = A section 60aa was put in place for the City Of London police area.
> = There have been three arrests: two for assault on police, one for Section 4 Public Order.


http://content.met.police.uk/News/Update-on-protests-in-City-of-London/1400003799507/1257246745756


----------



## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

'All told, the Police have been okay today - 3 arrests only so far. Even the Daily Fail did a neutral report on the global occupy protests '

'Worried for husband/daughter ... been hit/trampled ... can't leave - seems like it's kicking off at LSX :-S very worried for everyone'
http://www.facebook.com/occupylondon?ref=ts

Are you looking at the same sites as others?


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 15, 2011)

It seems to have calmed down a bit, its being streamed live here, by @bc_tmh  http://bambuser.com/channel/bc_tmh/broadcast/2047943


----------



## treelover (Oct 15, 2011)

good, keep it peaceful, its the only way it can be sustained..


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Very good livestream coverage here.http://bambuser.com/channel/bc_tmh/broadcast/2047943
Drumming, chanting - and peaceful protest - police are standing well back - they're not clearing the protest yet.
Hopefully they can stay overnight. It's late now. Long day for many people.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> It seems to have calmed down a bit, its being streamed live here, by @bc_tmh http://bambuser.com/channel/bc_tmh/broadcast/2047943


LOL. been tweeting that because some weirdos have been spreading rumours on twitter that it's not peaceful


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Loads of protestors outside - the kettle (they actually have brought food you know!)


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Oh Noes! Aggressive drumming! LOL


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2011)

to be fair, samba bands definitely constitute a breach of the peace, and I'd argue cruel and unusual punishment for anyone detained within a kettle.


----------



## dylans (Oct 15, 2011)

Why are they using that stupid human microphone technique in London? I understand why they are doing  it in New York but there is no ban on megaphones or microphones in London is there?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

From the other side of the square: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/gavin-ppuk


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

BigTom said:


> to be fair, samba bands definitely constitute a breach of the peace, and I'd argue cruel and unusual punishment for anyone detained within a kettle.


You're no fun. Drumming is where it's at. My only complaint is that they're not keeping the chanting up for long enough to build into that 'one voice' thing that can happen ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> From the other side of the square: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/gavin-ppuk


it all looks a bit messy


----------



## bingiman (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> From the other side of the square: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/gavin-ppuk



Thanks...so is it from outside the kettle?


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You're no fun. Drumming is where it's at. My only complaint is that they're not keeping the chanting up for long enough to build into that 'one voice' thing that can happen ...



I just *really* hate samba bands.


----------



## bingiman (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> From the other side of the square: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/gavin-ppuk


with sound now


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2011)

Ian Bone's report back:



> It was weird. Assange cleaved through the crowd surrounded by disciples – hundreds of them.Elsewhere small groups of zeitgeist adhrents addressed small gatherings of the initiates. the main crowd was kettled by St.Pauls. they chanted ‘Let us out’ but they were all happy clappy like they were bearing witness to something and wanted to suffer. It was comrades FUCKING WEIRD. Like the people had understood the forms of the ocupations but had no idea of content.Content didn’t matter.What was needed was to be there.
> 
> Assange left surrounded by praetorian guards – with him went the energy.he went into a newsagent. For hours afterwards adherents struggled to buy anything from the shop touched by his hand. It was fucking weird. There was repetitive chanting like a cathloic mass. Assange or another would say to the crowd ‘You must think for yourselves’ and the crowd would dirge back ‘we must think for ourselves’. V for vendetta masks, Anonymous, horizontal hand waving, cod phlosophy slogans like ‘we must evolve’….emphasis that none of this was ‘political’. Fuck me – where’s the rosicrucians phone number…i take back everything i said. There is nothing for our class here comrades – one of the most clueless inactions ever.
> 
> Meanwhile in Rome……


----------



## newbie (Oct 15, 2011)

yeah. even weirder was the chant of 'let them in' and from my side of the police lines, 'let us in'.

Later, after the road had re-opened the area outside the church was still a rather porous kettle, inside which was a huge queue for Starbucks.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Bristol full of the same, disney = zion etc


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Can we have some fucking politics now? Or is that breaking the rules?


----------



## bingiman (Oct 15, 2011)

Police moving in now

live stream


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

bingiman said:


> Police moving in now
> 
> live stream


That clip is from when the police moved into position at the top of the steps to St Paul's.
It's around 2 hours and 13 minutes old. He's not broadcasting live at the moment because he's conserving what's left of his batteries.
Reports are that all is calm. Drumming and chanting still occuring.
Police are not moving in.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> That clip is from when the police moved into position at the top of the steps to St Paul's.
> It's around 2 hours and 13 minutes old. He's not broadcasting live at the moment because he's conserving what's left of his batteries.
> Reports are that all is calm. Drumming and chanting still occuring.
> Police are not moving in.



Yep...it's on loop or something.

BTW LB you are everywhere tonight...I bet you have loads of windows open...I have seen you everywhere...


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

10,000 People in the Streets of Brussels http://bit.ly/nKr7IW


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Yep...it's on loop or something.
> 
> BTW LB you are everywhere tonight...I bet you have loads of windows open...I have seen you everywhere...


We are all Luther Blissett 

Where am I? I haven't caught up with myself yet


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm not


----------



## smokedout (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Woo hoo! http://twitter.com/#!/search/#OccupyLSX is now trending



woo fucking hoo


----------



## smokedout (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You must be bored. All that is, is evidence of internet chinese-whisper effect - of people like AKA copying verbatim from wherever they've seen the troofer-welcoming-blurb, or of troofer trolls posting the same blurb o their 25 fave fringe sites. It's not evidence of troofers being welcomed by occupy people



the OP was probably c&p'd from the main facebook page.  it was the original call out from the 'organisers'.  it was changed a few days ago.


----------



## bingiman (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not



I don't know why, made me smile


----------



## smokedout (Oct 15, 2011)

as for today, it was shit, worse than shit, no tactics, no anger, no imagination, no resistance, fucking horrible

not going to post anything else about it till im sober


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 15, 2011)

smokedout said:


> as for today, it was shit, worse than shit, no tactics, no anger, no imagination, no resistance, fucking horrible
> 
> not going to post anything else about it till im sober



Did you go?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

MASSIVE turnout in Madrid http://twitpic.com/70uxyt


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

bingiman said:


> I don't know why, made me smile


Me too 



smokedout said:


> as for today, it was shit, worse than shit, no tactics, no anger, no imagination, no resistance, fucking horrible
> 
> not going to post anything else about it till im sober



Just relax, will you. It's not a bloody revolution - it's a worldwide event - the beginnings of change


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Me too
> 
> Just relax, will you. It's not a bloody revolution - it's a worldwide event - the beginnings of change


And part of that change is not saying how you felt an action went?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Mouth shut smokedout. Nothing to do with you anymore.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Occupy the world. HUGE crowd in Berlin.http://yfrog.com/h64hlwnj


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

smokedout said:


> the OP was probably c&p'd from the main facebook page. it was the original call out from the 'organisers'. it was changed a few days ago.


Thx. I'll have a search to see if anyone's already done a debunk on the zeitgeist mythos in prep for future rallies. If there's nothing suitable that's already available from anarchist lit or libertarian left, there maybe sthg academic that I can mashup/cutup/adapt rather than research/write from scratch


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

ONE THOUSAND CULTISTS KETTLED AT ST.PAULS 



> It was weird. Assange cleaved through the crowd surrounded by disciples – hundreds of them.Elsewhere small groups of zeitgeist adhrents addressed small gatherings of the initiates. the main crowd was kettled by St.Pauls. they chanted ‘Let us out’ but they were all happy clappy like they were bearing witness to something and wanted to suffer. It was comrades FUCKING WEIRD. Like the people had understood the forms of the ocupations but had no idea of content.Content didn’t matter.What was neededwas to be there. Assange left surrounded by praetorian guards – with him went the energy.he went into a newsagent. For hours afterwards adherents struggled to buy anything from the shop touched by his hand. It was fucking weird. There was repetitive chanting like a cathloic mass. Assange or another would say to the crowd ‘You must think for yourselves’ and the crowd would dirge back ‘we must think for ourselves’. V for vendetta masks, Anonymous, horizontal hand waving, cod phlosophy slogans like ‘we must evolve’….emphasis that none of this was ‘political’. Fuck me – where’s the rosicrucians phone number…i take back everything i said. There is nothing for our class here comrades – one of the most clueless inactions ever.


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## ddraig (Oct 15, 2011)

you missed the "meanwhile in Rome..." bit posted on the last page


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Bone should change his name to Cartilage.


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

> Meanwhile in Rome……


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Bone should change his name to Cartilage.


Is your experience of london occupy different? Post it up.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Oct 15, 2011)

today's news tomorrow chip paper it seems an odd day to do it... but I am impressed that 3000 odd people turned out for it.


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## Blagsta (Oct 15, 2011)

Jesus, the facebook page is full of liberals and free market capitalist types


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## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Feel the wrath of anon


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Is your experience of london occupy different? Post it up.


Twice I posted to you two very well written articles on how it's inevitable that conspiracy mythos appeared because the protests are about the financial institutions & the way governments use peoples' money (the cuts). But no. You just keep going round and round with it.

So it's not fucking perfect, but nothing ever is.

It's something that needs to be dealt with, not something to walk away from.

Unless of course you want these antisemitic mythos and NWO bullshit to go unchallenged. Even when you take away the conspiracy theories, the fact remains that people all over are being screwed - did you not read the news about how people are struggling to pay rents here in UK? Did you miss the J14 protests in Israel?.

By all means sit in your armchair pontificating on the imperfection of peoples' protests and post up derogatory articles by inconsequential violent-fantasists like the spineless Mr.Cartilage who basically is feeding the status quo by finding no connection with the protest and basically rubbishing it. Nothing will change with your approach - you just mock from the sidelines.


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## bingiman (Oct 15, 2011)

maybe we should see where this settles
before passing judgement


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Jesus, the facebook page is full of liberals and free market capitalist types


Isn't that what got us into this mess?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

bingiman said:


> maybe we should see where this settles
> before passing judgement


Agree.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Isn't that what got us into this mess?



fucking right


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Twice I posted to you two very well written articles on how it's inevitable that conspiracy mythos appeared because the protests are about the financial institutions & the way governments use peoples' money (the cuts). But no. You just keep going round and round with it.
> 
> So it's not fucking perfect, but nothing ever is.
> 
> ...





> Is your experience of london occupy different? Post it up.



Been out today. Out again in a bit (you?). Tit of yourself.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 15, 2011)

Yes I've been out. I'm out. I'm currently occupying our Sukkah. Using the laptop with wifi, lol.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 15, 2011)

Yeah.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2011)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2011)




----------



## disco_dave_2000 (Oct 15, 2011)

some photos from Occupy Liverpool and sit in protest at Barclays Bank this way >


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2011)

It was a good atmosphere there in afternoon. Dont know what it was like later in evening. Police were contradictory. Said you couldnt go in at one point ( to clear road), then said people would be let in later.

When I tried to get in later Copper said I could go in but could not guarantee I would be let out.

I noticed that the Police were letting pedestrians go along the pavement at one point so I went along with a group of them to get to protest. There were a lot of bemused tourists around. I later walked out the same way I came in.

It was all peaceful when I was there. The "Black Bloc" were not in evidence.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2011)

disco_dave_2000 said:


> some photos from Occupy Liverpool and sit in protest at Barclays Bank this way >



good photos.


----------



## Mapped (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm in for the next one. I've only really just started paying attention


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Jesus, the facebook page is full of liberals and free market capitalist types



some of the core people on the Birmingham facebook group are freeman of the land types. I'm having to keep my mouth very shut, I'd suggest you don't come anywhere near it.. but I also know that there were some good anarchists down there today.  I'm hoping that arguments can be won face to face, because online stuff never goes anywhere.
No evidence of conspiraloons yet, or dickhead libertarians, but I'm sure they are there, fotl and libertarianism often goes hand in hand from what I've seen.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 15, 2011)

Lol, yeah I'm not very good at keeping my mouth shut online


----------



## sihhi (Oct 15, 2011)

This is what happens when you don't talk to/ignore people working on a different scale for similar aims on the basis of a 'wouldn't the whole world on the same day be cool whim?'. 5,000 facebook attendees apparently - where were they? Screw facebook.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2011)

Police are on radio news saying they are trying to clear St Pauls to protect it. When I was there the protestors were not doing any damage. No one was trying to climb St Pauls to put banners up on the Church. So Id say the protestors were being careful to respect the building.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

BigTom said:


> some of the core people on the Birmingham facebook group are freeman of the land types. I'm having to keep my mouth very shut, I'd suggest you don't come anywhere near it.. but I also know that there were some good anarchists down there today. I'm hoping that arguments can be won face to face, because online stuff never goes anywhere.
> No evidence of conspiraloons yet, or dickhead libertarians, but I'm sure they are there, fotl and libertarianism often goes hand in hand from what I've seen.



Oh jeez, just had a look at the Brum page, some idiot's wanking on about Rothchilds and Zionists 

Don't worry, I'm not gonna post on there


----------



## sihhi (Oct 16, 2011)

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc7-JrTOGvg

These are the youtube comments:

"I don't trust that guy at all.

Julian Assange is Rothschilds man, controlled opposition.
Julian Assange is fraud.

As Bernays said in the 1920's "if you control the leader, you control the group". Beware of controlled opposition, be an individual, be your own leader, only as individuals can we break the corrupt system. Remember Mao said the one thing he feared more than anything was someone with an idea, remember that.

I don't trust anyone who says 911 isn't a real conspiracy."

In the same way that the Tottenham (and beyond) disturbances were a wake-up call (to some) about renegadism within. 'Occupy UK' will be a wake up call about growing conspiracism and 'infinite love' trends.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 16, 2011)

Another set of ideas filling the vacuum.


----------



## ExtraRefined (Oct 16, 2011)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Police are on radio news saying they are trying to clear St Pauls to protect it. When I was there the protestors were not doing any damage. No one was trying to climb St Pauls to put banners up on the Church. So Id say the protestors were being careful to respect the building.



London police love to attack when the sun goes down


----------



## quimcunx (Oct 16, 2011)

You'd think the media would hang around with it being so predictable.


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

'anti-starbucks' was so noughties, seriously this is a new generation, look at them in the photos, average age, 20...


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

got their branding in...


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 16, 2011)

Swappie cunts.

I robbed a book off them on Monday.....by accident mind.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Oh jeez, just had a look at the Brum page, some idiot's wanking on about Rothchilds and Zionists
> 
> Don't worry, I'm not gonna post on there


I posted up a link to Sad Red Earth earlier - page 3 I think... you might find it useful


----------



## ddraig (Oct 16, 2011)

RT video of some plod movements


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## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

This stuf needs to be rid of mental swapies. Their presence makes it look like everyone's mental. And who in thier right mind would buy that fucking paper


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

The SWP certainly don't believe in the '99%' concept, can't do if they are Marxists, not that I do either...


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> The SWP certainly don't believe in the '99%' concept, can't do if they are Marxists, not that I do either...



They want to impose it.

Vile cunts.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> The SWP certainly don't believe in the '99%' concept, can't do if they are Marxists, not that I do either...


YOU - obsessing about the SWP ! AGAIN!


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Oh jeez, just had a look at the Brum page, some idiot's wanking on about Rothchilds and Zionists
> 
> Don't worry, I'm not gonna post on there


Here's a photo from a one-person  against the ZionistsAteMyHamster sign at Occupy Wall Street:





Write up here: http://www.salon.com/2011/10/12/anti_semite_gets_called_out_at_occupy_wall_st/singleton/

And wingnuts who might try to imply the protests are flawed or marred, are neatly deconstructed and dismissed here by Sad Red Earth:


> The video the three have foisted on us purports to show significant and rampant anti-Semitism at the Occupy Wall Street protests. It is a blatant and paltry distortion.
> 
> It is a regrettable nearly timeless truth that wherever attacks on the financially powerful are made, there will appear among the assembled motley of attackers some who will advance old, ugly canards about Jewish influence among the world’s wealthy. It is a regrettable current truth that wherever general left side protest is made there will appear within it some element protesting against Israel and for, as it happens in the video, Gaza. NONETHELESS, what the manipulators of this video have managed to come up with, after over a month of protest in New York City, and now in scores of American cities, is a mere one-minute assemblage. It is dynamically edited so that one may be led to believe that Occupy Wall Street is a veritable cauldron of anti-Semitic hatred. In truth, it shows, edited to appear multiple times and so increase the sense of number, only three incidents, one of which is the Gaza sign that we must acknowledge as a breed apart from the anti-Semitism. That leaves two – two incidents of anti-Semitic behavior noted among many weeks and cities of protest and thousands of protestors.
> The footage of the uglier of the two anti-Semitic incidents is culled from a longer video that has been on the web for over a week, and which culminates with an interview of the young man who berates and insults the old Jew. What is clear from the interview is that the guy is a loner and an outlier besides an ignorant asshole. What is clear from the Emergency Committee’s video is that its purpose is no emergency work on behalf of Israel, but the low and commonplace trashing of domestic political opponents, as it attempts to connect such as President Obama and Nancy Pelosi to the protests, and through the protests to the anti-Semitic and Gaza supportive elements. The video also belittles the protestors as a mob, and as such declares its plutocratic contempt.


From: http://sadredearth.com/the-putrid-cynicism-of-the-emergency-committee-for-israel/

Do pls read both the articles, and especially watch the Sad Red Earth link to the 'longer video' - it'll make our wingnuts seem less nutty (marginally).


----------



## ExtraRefined (Oct 16, 2011)

Peter Tatchell said:
			
		

> The richest 10 per cent of the UK population have a combined personal wealth of £4 million, million. A one-off 20 per cent tax on those people would raise £800 billion.
> 
> Those people can afford it, they'd feel no pain, they're so fabulously wealthy. With that sum of money you could pay off the entire government deficit. No need for any public spending cuts.



That 10% of the population includes esentialy anyone who owns a house in London. What Tatchell is actually proposing here is that the government go out tomorrow and ask for £30k off every homeowner in London. What's more that still wouldn't be anywhere near enough to pay off the existing government debt, which doesn't even include the banking liabilities, and does nothing about the £175bn pa structrual defecit!


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> That 10% of the population includes esentialy anyone who owns a house in London. What Tatchell is actually proposing here is that the government go out tomorrow and ask for £30k off every homeowner in London. What's more that still wouldn't be anywhere near enough to pay off the existing government debt, which doesn't even include the banking liabilities, and does nothing about the £175bn pa structrual defecit!



Well he can fuck right off TBH. We struggled to buy a place this year at the stupid massively inflated prices, but we got there and are having to spend all our time and money making the place inhabitable. There isn't 30K available to give to Tachell. We're in debt ffs!


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 16, 2011)

Total over-reaction from the Met today.


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> YOU - obsessing about the SWP ! AGAIN!



Well they are fucking muppets who seem to want to co-opt everything with their fucking placards and newspapers.

mao tse tung said; 'Change must come by shifting dodgy shitty newspapers'


----------



## BigTom (Oct 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Oh jeez, just had a look at the Brum page, some idiot's wanking on about Rothchilds and Zionists
> 
> Don't worry, I'm not gonna post on there



That's a different place to where I'm at, which is a group rather than a page, and def. contains the people who are actually there at the occupation, there's no zionism bullshit yet, and certainly no apparent racism.. sure theres a few CTers around though, kind of go hand in hand with FOTL beliefs.. I haven't looked for any pages relating to it, cos I found the group that felt very much like the central place to be..
There was no zionist crap in evidence in Birmingham yesterday from what I've seen, and I think they'd got told to fuck off if they did, knowing the people I know who are down there (some of whom might have bought into some of the 9/11 conspiracy stuff but see zionist conspiracy things for the racist bullshit it is, because they are anarchists or Marxists and have a political analysis that informs them about the banking system without a racial angle)

Photos from Birmingham


----------



## BigTom (Oct 16, 2011)

oh, and the reason I came on here to post was that the Vicar at St Pauls has come out in support of the occupation, and asked the police to leave, which they have apparently.. at least into their vans.
Should set a whole different tone for policing the occupation today and from now onwards.. and if the police leave it alone now, it could grow very quickly... perhaps it'll still be there for November 9th to use as a convergence centre!


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> This stuf needs to be rid of mental swapies. Their presence makes it look like everyone's mental. And who in thier right mind would buy that fucking paper


I'd rather have the SWP than some of the other wankers involved. At least they understand the issues at hand.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> That 10% of the population includes esentialy anyone who owns a house in London. What Tatchell is actually proposing here is that the government go out tomorrow and ask for £30k off every homeowner in London. What's more that still wouldn't be anywhere near enough to pay off the existing government debt, which doesn't even include the banking liabilities, and does nothing about the £175bn pa structrual defecit!



You'll have to provide some figures for that


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 16, 2011)

Quite, you'll have to excuse me if I don't accept your analysis of that ExtraRefined quite as readily as N1Buoy.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 16, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> Swappie cunts.
> 
> I robbed a book off them on Monday.....by accident mind.



You should take it back.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Oct 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Feel the wrath of anon



I thought it wasn't anon?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> The SWP certainly don't believe in the '99%' concept, can't do if they are Marxists, not that I do either...



The 99% is from economists who have looked at the growth in inequality between richest and poorest. The top 10% have over the last 20years gained more of the proportion of total wealth. Out of the top 10% the top 1% have increased there wealth even more than the remaining top 9%.

So out of the top10% even the top 9% have done worse than the ultra rich 1%.

To say we are the 99% is to show how how , obscenely , wealth has been redistributed upwards. Its quite staggering to read this and is not something we hear our politicians talk about.

I read this in Dorlings recent book on inequality,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Injustice-Why-Social-Inequality-Persists/dp/1847424260


----------



## smokedout (Oct 16, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Did you go?



yes, did you?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> I thought it wasn't anon?


Yes jon, that's right.


----------



## Sue (Oct 16, 2011)

Went through the City on a bus about 1 this morning. Wall to wall police vans round St Paul's/Bank-- Met rather than City of London Police. Was wondering what was going on as seemed to have missed all this.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I posted up a link to Sad Red Earth earlier - page 3 I think... you might find it useful


And you might ignore the potential problems with that unilateral approach. These assemblies are there for a reason you know.


----------



## bingiman (Oct 16, 2011)

BigTom said:


> oh, and the reason I came on here to post was that the Vicar at St Pauls has come out in support of the occupation, and asked the police to leave, which they have apparently.. at least into their vans.
> Should set a whole different tone for policing the occupation today and from now onwards.. and if the police leave it alone now, it could grow very quickly... perhaps it'll still be there for November 9th to use as a convergence centre!



I believe now is a good time to get out any old tents and sleeping bags that you don't mind losing and get down to St Pauls


----------



## love detective (Oct 16, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> That 10% of the population includes esentialy anyone who owns a house in London. What Tatchell is actually proposing here is that the government go out tomorrow and ask for £30k off every homeowner in London. What's more that still wouldn't be anywhere near enough to pay off the existing government debt, which doesn't even include the banking liabilities, and does nothing about the £175bn pa structrual defecit!



According to the most recent ONS report on wealth distribution (PDF) in the UK - the Net household wealth (i.e. after deducting borrowing/mortgages) at the level of the third quartile was £460,000. So this represents the 'poorest' amount of wealth in the top 25% of the population, clearly as you move up from the top 25%, through top 10%, through top 1%, to top 0.1% this figure will increase exponentially - however this is a level they don't go into in the report on this particular statistic. However what's clear is that no one in the wealthiest 25% of the country has net wealth of less than £460,000. From their breakdown of total wealth by deciles, it looks like the top 10% has 2.4 times as much wealth as the next richest decile - so applying this factor to the £460,000 gives us a rough (and conservative) guide to the bottom level of net wealth for the top 10% of around £1.1m. So this is about the level we are talking about.

So are you claiming that everyone who owns a house in London has net wealth (after taking into account mortgages owed) of £1.1m?

Also a 20% tax on wealth of the top 10% would not mean everyone in that category paying the same amount (your 30k) but it would clearly be proportionate to their level of wealth. In total the top 10% own 4 trillion and 20% on that would yield £800bn - you claim this would not be anywhere near enough to pay of existing government debt, but at July 2011 this figure stood at £940bn, so it would pay off 85% of it (for the time being will leave aside the desirability or otherwise of this debt being paid off however, for now can just focus on the numbers).

Your last point about the debt number not including the banking liabilities is irrelevant as the value of banking assets held in the nationalised/part nationalised banks are higher than the level of liabilities, so there is a net asset there, not a net liability. Because some measures of UK debt include the liabillities of the banks (but not their assets) this allows people to scream hysterically at levels of debt, but it's nothing more than a fuckwitted statistical requirement to present the numbers in this way, it doesn't mean anything. If you were to include the net assets/liabilities of the banks in the goverrment debt figures it would actually reduce, not increase, the number


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 16, 2011)

We all know that Hannan is a swivel-eyed right wing loon but here he is attacking the protesters and apologising for his rentier capitalist chums.



> Alright, all you demonstrators, we get what you're against: capitalism, banks, rich people, free trade, wealth creation and property rights. But what exactly are you _for_?
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...tests-youve-picked-the-wrong-target-comrades/



Notice how he trots out the old cliche "You don't have an answer, therefore whatever you do is wrong".



> That's right: the richest ten per cent pay 53.3 per cent of all income tax. Now reasonable people can disagree about what constitutes a fair share, but it is difficult to avoid at least one firm conclusion: if you impoverish, exile or otherwise disincentivise the people who pay more than half our taxes, our economy will collapse.



This is a straw man, but let's carry on.



> Please understand, my Leftie friends, that what has taken place since 2008 is anything but capitalism. In a capitalist system, incompetent banks would have been allowed to fail, their profitable operations sold on to their competitors. Shareholders, bondholders and some depositors would have lost money, but taxpayers would not have contributed a penny.



Wrong, it _is_ capitalism, Danny Boy.

This is the best bit,


> Don't blame 'the rich'; blame those in the Bank of England and the Treasury who, despite the palpable failure of their bailout-and-borrow policies, are determined to carry on *doing the same thing*.



Ye olde deflection. "Don't blame the rich he says" (because he is one of them). Yet it is those rich bastards who not only rely on corporate welfare but who salt their money away in offshore accounts to avoid paying tax. In other words, that money is not in this country.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 16, 2011)

he also jumps from "income tax" to "tax" in the article, and it's posited on the whole notion that income tax is the only tax.
The whole article is wrong from top to bottom as you say, but even on it's own terms it's a particularly stupid piece of analysis.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

Watch this from 2.20 - Our father who art in heaven


----------



## past caring (Oct 16, 2011)

Fuck's sake.


----------



## dylans (Oct 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Watch this from 2.20 - Our father who art in heaven



That is disturbingly cult like. Doesn't anyone there feel like saying. "look, pack it in. You sound like loonies. There is a fucking microphone right in front of him". God, nothing could be more guaranteed to alienate people from joining in.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 16, 2011)

Who the fuck are those cunts?

and people are whinging about the Swaps


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

dylans said:


> That is disturbingly cult like. Doesn't anyone there feel like saying. "look, pack it in. You sound like loonies. There is a fucking microphone right in front of him". God, nothing could be more guaranteed to alienate people from joining in.


There were people hanging around just off the green, not convinced whether to get involved or not - i saw them, there was lots of this sort of thing going on and it was clearly putting them off. Lots of people just wandered off up the road to the pub. I'll have another look today.


----------



## dylans (Oct 16, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Who the fuck are those cunts?
> 
> and people are whinging about the Swaps


It makes me despair.......But then I remember this







and this





and this





and I remember the potential.


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I'd rather have the SWP than some of the other wankers involved. At least they understand the issues at hand.



Yeah. But I bet the SWP have got a list for who's first up against the wall when revolution comes. Life's more complicated than that.

I don't have anything against swappies personally. I'd like massive change, but don't share their revolutionary zeal. Their approach is alienating and scary to many people who aren't educated in these issues and it's these people who need to be brought on board. A stand of very keen and well meaning people outside a tube station, doesn't achieve this. Most people think that they are nuts.

Other more subtle methods are needed.

Hope I've not been out of order here and don't want to offend any trots.


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> You should take it back.



Yeah. Otherwise you'll get a massive fine for an outstanding loan


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 16, 2011)

BigTom said:


> he also jumps from "income tax" to "tax" in the article, and it's posited on the whole notion that income tax is the only tax.
> The whole article is wrong from top to bottom as you say, but even on it's own terms it's a particularly stupid piece of analysis.



He had the best education money could buy and he's still as thick as pigshit.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 16, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> Yeah. But I bet the SWP have got a list for who's first up against the wall when revolution comes. Life's more complicated than that.
> 
> I don't have anything against swappies personally. I'd like massive change, but don't share their revolutionary zeal. Their approach is alienating and scary to many people who aren't educated in these issues and it's these people who need to be brought on board. A stand of very keen and well meaning people outside a tube station, doesn't achieve this. Most people think that they are nuts.
> 
> ...



Do you not think that the behviour shown in the video above is more alienating than a couple of daft students trying to sell papers and give out placards?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> There were people hanging around just off the green, not convinced whether to get involved or not - i saw them, there was lots of this sort of thing going on and it was clearly putting them off. Lots of people just wandered off up the road to the pub. I'll have another look today.


Challenge it. Film it. It's on your patch.


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

To Spanky - Just woke up and was replying to my comments last night. Haven't checked the vid out yet. Will do today. As I say I may be wrong about the SWP


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

Do you think i wouldn't have challenged that if i'd seen it?


----------



## rekil (Oct 16, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Who the fuck are those cunts?


Open your mind sheeple!!11!

A Ryman Isthmian League (Division One South) David Icke. Disgusting.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2011)

Two interesting reads here

Richard Seymour - Strategies for the anticapitalist transition - a piece about all the collective decision making going on, and general make up of the Occupy phenomenon
"At the same time, the pursuit of more immediate agendas has allowed a modus vivendi to emerge among potentially competitive groups, but it has also meant that the strategic question tends to be suspended in practice. So, before moving on to the rest of the Poulantzas stuff, I just wanted to sketch out a few observations on the relevance of strategic thought to this movement. "
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/strategies-for-anticapitalist.html

and Paul Mason - 'Occupy' is a response to economic permafrost:- "In February I wrote a blog called "Twenty Reasons Why It's Kicking Off Everywhere". With the global Occupy protests yesterday it is still looking quite accurate. But it's now clear there is a 21st reason. And a 22nd. We've had nine months of political paralysis. And people have begun to feel the economic permafrost setting in. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15326636

Both worth clicking


----------



## albionism (Oct 16, 2011)

dylans said:


> It makes me despair.......But then I remember this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


size of that geezer's fist!


----------



## flutterbye (Oct 16, 2011)

Mass account closures starting to happen across US banks. 
November 5th is the main day of action.
http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywalls...st_closed_out_my_chase_account_and_have_some/


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2011)

Do we need a Occupy Everywhere thread for non-place specific general chat? It was quite useful in the riots for having separate threads for different areas...


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2011)

flutterbye said:


> Mass account closures starting to happen across US banks.
> November 5th is the main day of action.
> http://www.reddit.com/r/occupywalls...st_closed_out_my_chase_account_and_have_some/


im in the process of moving mine to the Co-op - its taking ages though (my fault really)

i wasnt very happy to see the coop get downgraded the other day - dont know what that means about the investments theyve been making. I did look into coop investment policy a few years back, and i came across a statement saying there isnt enough ethical investment opportunities for them, so not all investments are all that ethcial (or words to that effect). Wish i could find that again. Anyway, fuck Barclays.


----------



## dylans (Oct 16, 2011)

> The footage of the uglier of the two anti-Semitic incidents is culled from a longer video that has been on the web for over a week, and which culminates with an interview of the young man who berates and insults the old Jew. What is clear from the interview is that the guy is a loner and an outlier besides an ignorant asshole. What is clear from the Emergency Committee’s video is that its purpose is no emergency work on behalf of Israel, but the low and commonplace trashing of domestic political opponents, as it attempts to connect such as President Obama and Nancy Pelosi to the protests, and through the protests to the anti-Semitic and Gaza supportive elements. The video also belittles thea protestors as a mob, and as such declares its plutocratic contempt



There is more on the Emergency Committee for Israel's anti semitism smear here.


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Do we need a Occupy Everywhere thread for non-place specific general chat? It was quite useful in the riots for having separate threads for different areas...



We might need an Occupy sub forum at this rate


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

ska invita said:


> Do we need a Occupy Everywhere thread for non-place specific general chat? It was quite useful in the riots for having separate threads for different areas...


Yes. And we need a 'how to address the cultists & racist conspiracy theorists' heads-together too, because it needs multiple-person input


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> We might need an Occupy sub forum at this rate


I like that idea. Occupy Urban75


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Do you think i wouldn't have challenged that if i'd seen it?


You'd said "_there was lots of this sort of thing going on and it was clearly putting them off"_ - so I thought you had actually heard/seen it


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You'd said "_there was lots of this sort of thing going on and it was clearly putting them off"_ - so I thought you had actually heard/seen it


I did see lots of people being put off by loons, and i did point out why it was shit.

But, of course, according to you, this sort of stuff didn't and couldn't happen. To suggest it might would be _crass_. And of course, can be dealt with by you directing them to a picture of something that happened in New York in totally different circumstances with totally different actors.

What's gone wrong with your eyes luther? And on the same subject, what's gone wrong with your legs?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

Don't put words into my mouth, old man.
I objected to your sloppy mischaracterisation that the protestors were all conspiraloids.

The links I gave were relevant, because whilst the 'actors' are different, the ideologies are the same.
The ways of dealing with these things are myriad - those two links showed two ways.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

You're not doing very well here.


Luther Blissett said:


> Don't put words into my mouth, old man.



Old man. You make i laugh. _Down with the people older than me. _


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I like that idea. Occupy Urban75





http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/is-there-a-need-for-an-occupy75-sub-forum.282652/


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You're not doing very well here.
> 
> Old man. You make i laugh. _Down with the people older than me. _


You walked away.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 16, 2011)

This is an interesting commentary on occupy lsx : http://thethirdestate.net/2011/10/rank-mimicry-in-the-form-of-protest-reflections-on-occupylsx/

I don't think everyone focussed on the police as much as him as his friends, but he suggests there is a lack of political content to the occupation that was worrying me too. I'm talking just about the London one here - and perhaps true of other UK ones. It's certainly different in other countries. But here, and to some degree in Spain, I think a particular form has developed that is intensely focussed on creating a (probably temporary) collective identity and trying to assert space for that identity in a slightly egotistical way - meanwhile the more substantive organising is still not being done in many places.

Having said that, I'd rather it were happening that not. It may be the start of better things.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

I hope so too.

One issue in particular which stood out for me this last week: ordinary working families unable to afford private rents in 55% of local authorities: Read more
The week before it was the reports from various churches that the demand for food parcels is increasing; the complete and utter lack of opportunities to access training/education and employment for 1 million youth

And then there's the news that some GPs in York are exploiting their patients to line their own pockets ...

The list is massive - we're being fucked over.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 16, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> Yeah. But I bet the SWP have got a list for who's first up against the wall when revolution comes. Life's more complicated than that.
> 
> I don't have anything against swappies personally. I'd like massive change, but don't share their revolutionary zeal. Their approach is alienating and scary to many people who aren't educated in these issues and it's these people who need to be brought on board. A stand of very keen and well meaning people outside a tube station, doesn't achieve this. Most people think that they are nuts.
> 
> ...



Murderous, naive, zealous, alienating, scary and insane.

How could anyone be offended by that?


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

Sorry 

Just thinking aloud! Are you all swappies on here? If so very, very sorry!

You'll never get me selling any papers though


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 16, 2011)

http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/266-2/occupy-london/ #OccupyLSX Livestream


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 16, 2011)

Red Cat said:


> You should take it back.



I really shouldn't encourage them.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 16, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> Sorry
> 
> Just thinking aloud! *Are you all swappies* on here? If so very, very sorry!
> 
> You'll never get me selling any papers though



outside etc


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> Sorry
> 
> Just thinking aloud! Are you all swappies on here? If so very, very sorry!
> 
> You'll never get me selling any papers though



I've just found out that one of my mates is flogging papers today 

I need a big think about my personal politics.

Sorry again for any offence caused. I'm just trying to bounce ideas about


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

You've not offended anyone bouy - keep bouncing


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> outside etc



Getcha!


----------



## Mapped (Oct 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You've not offended anyone bouy - keep bouncing



I am. I'm going to bounce all the way to the pub now


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

From 1997 median wages declined in Europe.See the stats (& it'll be worse for the poorest) http://t.co/K1jGK3Ep


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

2.20


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

Defence against rip-offs http://bit.ly/rf5dml


----------



## sptme (Oct 16, 2011)

They have posted up their key messages from the GA:

1) The current system is broken - undemocratic, unjust. We need alternatives. This is where we start working towards them. We will work out further points in the course of the occupation.
2) We are all ethnicities, classes, genders and generations - and we stand together with occupations all over the world.
3) We refuse to pay for the bankers' crisis.
4) We support the strike on 30th November, the student actions on 9th November, and actions to defend the health service, welfare and employment, and to stop wars.
5) We want structural change so the world's resources go to caring for people and for the planet, and not to the military, corporate profits, or the rich.
6) THIS is what democracy looks like.
https://london.indymedia.org/articles/10500


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

Your legs working yet luther?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Your legs working yet luther?



In case you do decide to join the protests, you might like to maintain your anonymity behind this mask:


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

sptme said:


> They have posted up their key messages from the GA:
> 
> 1) The current system is broken - undemocratic, unjust. We need alternatives. This is where we start working towards them. We will work out further points in the course of the occupation.
> 2) We are all ethnicities, *classes,* genders and generations - and we stand together with occupations all over the world.
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> In case you do decide to join the protests, you might like to maintain your anonymity behind this mask:


Been down there. You?


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

@Blagsta, what on earth is wrong with the list, its the return of decency to politics and a strong defence of social democracy and the welfare state, calls for revolution are going nowhere


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> @Blagsta, what on earth is wrong with the list, its the return of decency to politics and a strong defence of social democracy and the welfare state, calls for revolution are going nowhere



All classes?  Really?  Whatever happened to a class analysis?


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

if they act on welfare it is much more than most of WILOTL has done in the last few years(though it is getting better..)


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> if they act on welfare it is much more than most of WILOTL has done in the last few years(though it is getting better..)



If who acts on welfare?


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

@blagsta

activists from RTS. EF, etc onwards have been trying to dispose of the 'baggage of class'


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> If who acts on welfare?


 
The UK 'occupy' movement, it is in their statement...


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> @blagsta
> 
> activists from RTS. EF, etc onwards have been trying to dispose of the 'baggage of class'



Crap.  RTS became explicitly class based as it progressed, see the link up with Liverpool dockers, striking tube workers etc.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> The UK 'occupy' movement, it is in their statement...



They will do this...how?  Without links to a wider social and workers movement, this is going nowhere.  That means an acknowledgement of class.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 16, 2011)

thing is Blagsta, I think that many people haven't really come across the marxist idea of class, and when they talk of class they are talking about the liberal idea of class - various strands of working, middle and upper class... it's just trying to be inclusive without realising that "working class" should be inclusive (even including claimants who do not or cannot work) anyway..
to most people, working class describes just a small section of what me and you would think of as working class..
I don't think it's an issue that is worth getting picky about tbh, I think those outcomes sound good.. if somewhat liberal, but then as tl says this is not a revolutionary movement (yet).

In terms of the links to wider social and workers movement, they have expressed support for N9 and N30 - so that's building links with both the student and public sector unions.. also someone I know down there was talking to a sparky, who was saying that the occupy thing needs to join up with their struggle.. he'd just wandered by at the start of the day, but has stayed down there and now is thinking of staying on..  just one person, but the kind of story that if repeated will build those links.
These links can, and hopefully will, be built.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 16, 2011)

fairynuff Tom


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 16, 2011)

just back from visiting the camp. very chilled and organised. info point, media tent (phone recharging), kitchen and small circles of people talking all over. police looking decidedly lost and protecting paternoster - like anyone is bothered now. worth a visit.


----------



## rekil (Oct 16, 2011)

irish times said:
			
		

> In Dame Street a suggestion that the group should incorporate an anti-capitalist message in its brief manifesto was rejected: for some that is part of the analysis, for others a step too far.



'Inner peace workshop' at noon tomorrow though.


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

I think the vicar has pulled a blinder here, making st pauls relevant again and making a safe space for the movement to grow..


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2011)

treelover said:


> I think the vicar has pulled a blinder here, making st pauls relevant again and making a safe space for the movement to grow..


it's back to the middle ages with the church providing sanctuary against the forces of law and order

how the fuck has yer man made st paul's 'relevant again'? eh? if the bloody movement needs some god-botherer, some sky pilot, to supply a safe space for the movement to grow, is it a movement which deserves to survive?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2011)

*taps watch*


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2011)

that's shut you up treelover


----------



## bingiman (Oct 16, 2011)

Give them a break.  They didn't plan on ending up in front of the cathedral the police forced them there. Frankly there are probably worse places to be.  It might even be the first time I have asked people to go to church on Sunday , it is a foothold, no more no less. But lots of other churches very strategically placed around our city of london if you needed to establish a base.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 16, 2011)

BigTom said:


> thing is Blagsta, I think that many people haven't really come across the marxist idea of class, and when they talk of class they are talking about the liberal idea of class - various strands of working, middle and upper class... it's just trying to be inclusive without realising that "working class" should be inclusive (even including claimants who do not or cannot work) anyway..
> to most people, working class describes just a small section of what me and you would think of as working class..
> I don't think it's an issue that is worth getting picky about tbh, I think those outcomes sound good.. if somewhat liberal, but then as tl says this is not a revolutionary movement (yet).
> 
> ...


thing is, the sparks have a definite cause to rally around, and they've shown themselves to be remarkably resourceful and resilient recently.

whereas the londonlsx things have looked a bit pointless imo, which is sad. what do we want, to sit down, when do we want to, um, tomorrow maybe....if we're allowed to


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 16, 2011)

Some pictures I took:

Yesterday: http://entoptika.co.uk/occupylsx1/












Today: http://entoptika.co.uk/occupylsx2/


----------



## BigTom (Oct 16, 2011)

obviously I can never really comment on the London thing, as I'm not going to be there.  I'm interested to see what Birmingham is like when I go down there tomorrow (been too ill to join it over the weekend).. from the people I know who have been there, it seems to be mostly very inexperienced people, people who have never been active before.. They'll soon drop the idea that they need to be allowed to do something, though I bet they are well pleased they are allowed to be outside St Pauls and are not getting beaten by police anymore (sometimes permission is good!)

I'm well impressed with the sparks.. I hope that links are built and that the occupylsx camp more or less clears out early wednesday morning to support the sparks protest (at Blackfriars?).
If it becomes a base for wider actions, then it could start looking like something more than what you are seeing at the moment.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> They will do this...how? Without links to a wider social and workers movement, this is going nowhere. That means an acknowledgement of class.



They are aknowledging class, just not in direct classical terms. It is clear who is cited as controlling the economy, implicitly including  the means of production and distribution (the 1%). What the movement does not appear to be trying to do is drive a wedge between the percieved working and middle class, most people who see themselves as middle class are actually working class anyway and increasingly likely to sympathise with working class identity. Why stir un neccessary emnity? The movement is explicitly anti elite, that is entirely appropriate.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 16, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> that's shut you up treelover



He never responds to questions, just makes the same autistic statements over and over and over and over


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 16, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> They are aknowledging class, just not in direct classical terms. It is clear who is cited as controlling the economy, implicitly including the means of production and distribution (the 1%). What the movement does not appear to be trying to do is drive a wedge between the percieved working and middle class, most people who see themselves as middle class are actually working class anyway and increasingly likely to sympathise with working class identity. Why stir un neccessary emnity? The movement is explicitly anti elite, that is entirely appropriate.



Might have known you would leap to their defence you weird freak


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 16, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> thing is, the sparks have a definite cause to rally around, and they've shown themselves to be remarkably resourceful and resilient recently.
> 
> whereas the londonlsx things have looked a bit pointless imo, which is sad. what do we want, to sit down, when do we want to, um, tomorrow maybe....if we're allowed to



are they really comparable? I mean the #occupylsx thing is obviously modelled on the #15m stuff in Spain, the idea being to mobilise people against the financial and political classes in general. Now the latter hasn't managed to change anything particularly profound about the Spanish state, but it has developed a very broad base of activists available to help out with a wide variety of more practical things - preventing evictions, supporting a teacher's strike and had the helpful side effect of creating a public space for people critical of the system per se.

With the best will in the world, you're not going to get that out of strike support.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> are they really comparable? I mean the #occupylsx thing is obviously modelled on the #15m stuff in Spain, the idea being to mobilise people against the financial and political classes in general. Now the latter hasn't managed to change anything particularly profound about the Spanish state, but it has developed a very broad base of activists available to help out with a wide variety of more practical things - preventing evictions, supporting a teacher's strike and had the helpful side effect of creating a public space for people critical of the system per se.
> 
> With the best will in the world, you're not going to get that out of strike support.


the thing which is going to mobilise people against the financial and political classes in general are the actions of those people. it's not a case of rallying people around a set of abstract notions, it's the actions of people in the city and in parliament which are themselves fomenting disquiet and dissent. this disaffection may be reflected in initiatives like occupy london - but those attracted by this weekend's activity seem to be a curious melange without any real analysis of the situation beyond a vague 'down with this sort of thing' and with an unusually high proportion of conspiraloons. while you wouldn't expect people to turn up with a fully formed and documented analysis of where we are, how we got where we are and where it's hoped to be in six months time, it's depressing that *at best* you suggest this occupylsx business can produce 'a very broad base of activists available to help out with a wide variety of more practical things'. it's long been my view that we have fucking activists coming out of our ears, that activists are the last thing anyone needs, and that activism is something which has brought the british left (of whatever hue) to the poor state it's in now. activists, a sort of poor man's professional revolutionaries, are in my opinion the greatest obstacle to a positive and effective revolutionary social movement. in addition, it's by no means more activity we need, but activity which includes and does not exclude, activity in which anyone can take part, activity which shows what is possible.


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2011)

they've dropped 'class' in favour of 'background' now. must've been watching...

http://occupylsx.org/?p=221


----------



## sihhi (Oct 16, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> are they really comparable? I mean the #occupylsx thing is obviously modelled on the #15m stuff in Spain, the idea being to mobilise people against the *financial and political classes* in general. Now the latter hasn't managed to change anything particularly profound about the Spanish state, but it has developed a very broad base of activists available to help out with a wide variety of more practical things - preventing evictions, supporting a teacher's strike and had the helpful side effect of creating a public space for people critical of the system per se.
> 
> With the best will in the world, you're not going to get that out of strike support.



I agree with a lot of what pickman's model says but I want to stress that I think the term "political class(es)" and "financial class" are fairly meaningless. It confuses what 'class' is to mix it or apply it to a group of people on a whim. Does it make sense to talk about a "military class" or "manufacturing class"?
It also leads to two dangerous ideas:
1. If we had MPs only serve one term (i.e. not be a class) things would be better.
If MPs had to perform a non-politics role for X years before they were allowed to MPs things would be better.

2. 'Bankers are the problem' / 'Finance is the problem'.

Back in the 1930s the problem was seen as being an international finance problem, and Britain needed to look to tariff protection within the Empire to sort it out.
In the last recession of the 1980s the idea was that old, heavy 'non-value adding' industry (coal) was the problem. What Britain needed to do was restructure and reform, become like Switzerland or Germany, let money go to new high-tech industries and retail.
Once again this crisis is being blamed on 'finance'

We shouldn't single out a struggle against finance and leave the rest of the capitalist system unexamined or 'leave that for that'. It has to be done at the same time, otherwise the non-finance side the manufacturing, retail, agricultural, services wing of the ruling class can organise itself into action knock out the excesses of finance capital, steal the goodies for itself but impose the costs onto the w/class all in the name of fighting the 'financial class'.

We need to start consolidating our ranks, actually listening to and trying winning back the disaffected young people, expelling the renegades, trying to extend the idea of nationalisation and socialisation in single-hander and small business industries/sectors, trying to isolate those who want to extend jail for 'benefit fraudsters' from our ranks, refusing to talk with Labour councillors unless they talk sense,
applying pressure on those on our side not to start letting houses, take voluntary redunancy, use 'saving for children's university fees' as an excuse, investing in shares, , stopping the  boom in small businesses is rent insurance companies, try to get thinking in terms of mass participations (millions ideally) [mass boycotts of university examinations, non-payment of utility bills with specific demands for prices, non-fare taking of public transport, strike sympathy actions]

It's those types of things in Greece that have really allowed people to claw back some things there.
Without some support from the rest of Europe - i.e. us - Greek people will lose.

We need to start thinking as the producers' class - that's not 'the 99%' vs 'the bankers'. Our enemies are much wider than the '1%' for a start the 10% (at leasT0 below them make up the ruling class.

Also, if strikes are going to win, then blockades, protests and sit-downs will have to be a part of them.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 16, 2011)

ffs.. there seems to be a heap of people here who know the 'pure dictum' way to protest...
scratch that...
Its a learning curve for all of us.... no dogma? the fluidity of protest is the beauty imo....
doing, rather than talking, is the best way to learn innit?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2011)

Agreed! ^^^ It's like those who always moan about the SWP...I always think...'well at least they are doing something!'  We don't have to agree on everything...it's the things we do agree on that are important IMO!


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 16, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Some pictures I took:
> 
> Yesterday: http://entoptika.co.uk/occupylsx1/
> 
> Today: http://entoptika.co.uk/occupylsx2/



lulz.. @ Dale farm for example it was agreed to drop these cliche internal forms of expression ie activist circle jerk masturbation....

btw: this so alienates the general public....


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 16, 2011)

dylans said:


> That is disturbingly cult like. Doesn't anyone there feel like saying. "look, pack it in. You sound like loonies. There is a fucking microphone right in front of him". God, nothing could be more guaranteed to alienate people from joining in.



the rich, the rothschilds and the zionists want a new world order.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 16, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Do you not think that the behviour shown in the video above is more alienating than a couple of daft students trying to sell papers and give out placards?



i hope a trot shoves a paper up that guy's arse, the anti-semitic twat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2011)

sihhi said:


> I agree with a lot of what pickman's model says but I want to stress that I think the term "political class(es)" and "financial class" are fairly meaningless. It confuses what 'class' is to mix it or apply it to a group of people on a whim.


that's why in the second sentence i made it clear who i was talking about, people in the city and people in parliament, although i recognise that there are a lot of other people involved in the drawing up, passage and execution of policies which i find objectionable. however, for the sake of brevity i thought that people in the city as financial classes and people in parliament as political classes would do. i meant this as sections of the population, of course, as opposed to class in the sociological sense.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> lulz.. @ Dale farm for example it was agreed to drop these cliche internal forms of expression



That may be, however there are some practicalities involved in cholding/communicating in large meetings.


----------



## treelover (Oct 16, 2011)

Do these conspiracy theorists have an active hatred for jews or is it more abstract, they don't seem like C18 types or even the more 'gentile' League Of St George

There does seem to be lot of the latter (abstractions) on the OLSX facebook page, 'tentacles' and all that...


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2011)

Where is the dislike button?


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

treelover said:


> Do these conspiracy theorists have an active hatred for jews or is it more abstract, they don't seem like C18 types or even the more 'gentile' League Of St George
> 
> There does seem to be lot of the latter (abstractions) on the OLSX facebook page, tentacles and all that...



it's alex jones/david icke type cultists. usually not part of the orgaised far right (or organised anything beyond tieing their own shoelaces tbh...) some of them probably are, tho they are involved in nothing and cotnrol nothing beyond loon/fundie sites on the internet ...


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## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

eh, its a genuine question, there is some unpleasant stuff on the OLSX FB page and on some other 911 sites, etc..


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

treelover said:


> eh, its a genuine question, there is some unpleasant stuff on the OLSX FB page and on some other 911 sites, etc..



there's always unpleasant stuff on the 9/11 sites. these people do need to be kept out


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

that was at Rutita

so, Froggie are they fully anti-semetic or just looking to explain the world so it make sense, to them anyway...


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

treelover said:


> that was at Rutita
> 
> so, Froggie are they fully anti-semetic or just looking to explain the world so it make sense, to them anyway...



some are just idiots who've smoked too much weed and watched the x-files a few too many times, others are full on anti-semitic twats to be honest (there's some fucking vile shit on the david icke site), some are both ... to be honest i wouldn't trust someone who claimed to be hanging around that scene for a while and not know it was dodgy.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 17, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> That may be, however there are some practicalities involved in cholding/communicating in large meetings.



i undestand the 'hand signal' keek... does joe or josy public? imo... less wanky symbolism.....


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

well there seems to be a lot of them and a fair few are at the OLSX


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## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

to be honest that entire thing is shot through with anti-semitism. if you believe that shite that all the talk of rothschilds, the gold standard, the federal reserve, 9/11, and that, that it's nothing to do with hatred for the Jews and that t's all about opening your mind man, that that's true, you're either an idiot not worth listening to or you're lying


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2011)

treelover said:


> eh, its a genuine question, there is some unpleasant stuff on the OLSX FB page and on some other 911 sites, etc..


I don't see any on the "OLSX FB page" - at least the occupylondon one, there is some loonery in comments but people smack it down. "Occupy Sainsburys" seems to be a cock.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> i undestand the 'hand signal' keek... does joe or josy public? imo... less wanky symbolism.....



That is surely the point of the sign photographed above...to let people know what it means...it isn't that hard to understand, or why.


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 17, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> That is surely the point of the sign photographed above...to let people know what it means...it isn't that hard to understand, or why.


hmm.. according to a few folk that engaged in the GA's they found it a bit weird.... perhaps it may be something to bear in mind, so as prior to discussions that this was explained properly? Some folk i know that were there and still there, may have 'literacy issues'....
keep it simple imo... as i was getting complaints from those who found these communication processes confusing....


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## albionism (Oct 17, 2011)

anyone know what's occurring in London at the moment?
i am watching "live" i think, on Bambuser, seems like
the police are acting the cunt. Any news?

http://bambuser.com/channel/bc_tmh/broadcast/2047943


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> hmm.. according to a few folk that engaged in the GA's they found it a bit weird.... perhaps it may be something to bear in mind, so as prior to discussions that this was explained properly? Some folk i know that were there and still there, may have 'literacy issues'....
> keep it simple imo... as i was getting complaints from those who found these communication processes confusing....



What does 'simple' mean? Surely not having people shout out and interupt in a large assembly is more effective? I don't think it's something to worry about TBH...sure if you are unfamiliar with it you might be thinking 'Hey, wtf?' But it isn't hard, and I don't think it should be feared, as it stands at the moment.

Anyway, apparently:



> *#OccupyLSX initial statement*
> 
> Posted on October 16, 2011 by occupylsx
> 
> ...


http://occupylsx.org/?p=221


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 17, 2011)

have seen GA statement (believe it may have been posted here already)

imo... we need to recognise that people may not be used to these 'passing the stick' processes....
we alienate people by such 'discussion processes'... hence the global #occupy protests break up into smaller groups so as to explain the decision making process....
Remember the first protest you were involved with???...
. its all about learning from each other.. not disenfranchasing people who are new to the scene???
anyhows minor detail... Im just bored defending cliche activists....


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## gawkrodger (Oct 17, 2011)

PM and Sihhi with strong posts


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## Mapped (Oct 17, 2011)

Apologies if it's a pearoast. I've only just come across it

http://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBritain/


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> Apologies if it's a pearoast. I've only just come across it
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBritain/


Requires login.


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## Mapped (Oct 17, 2011)

And an approval. I forget not everyone's on fbook. Sorry

It's lots of discussion videos etc (just like here really ) Has 1,290 member so far


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2011)

Well that's just great. Thanks for posting it.


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## Mapped (Oct 17, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Well that's just great. Thanks for posting it.



Join facebook with a fake account, there's loads on there


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 17, 2011)

Or, perhaps, anyone running an invite-only Facebook group for protests is a bit dim and useless?


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## Mapped (Oct 17, 2011)

There is that!

I'm getting all my info off here. My mate who joined the Socialist Worker today just joined it, so I'd thought I'd take a shufty. Nothing new.


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 17, 2011)

I think there _is _a lot of naievety within much of the 'occupy movement' - in the UK and US anyway.
Its very much at stage of - 'if we behave ourselves, and be reasonable then the force of the better argument will win out'.

But what many people invovled dont seem to realise is that in directly challenging the wealth and power the top '1%' they are making a very radical demand. If the movement grows to the point of having many thousands on the steets the resonse from the state will become far more aggressive. The 1% are not going to roll over - they will have to forced.

This may well become increasingly apparent to those now trying to have a fluffy love revolutuion by asking nicely.

For this reason I support the occupy movement. It has the potential to become a radical and radicalising force for change, to link up with workers movements and other progressive forces. People up and down the country - and throughout the previously affluent world - are just starting to see the brutal injustice of the economic social system. People who have worked all their lives are now finding out whats it like to be treated like shit by the benefits system, are seeing their kids unable to go to college, are starting to really struggle to provide a home for their families - this is not what people ever expected and they are getting very fucking angry. But that in itself is not going to get them stocking up on marxists tomes or setting up workers co-ops.

The 'occupy movement' offers a clear and simple outlet for that anger - and if the numbers swell the voices of the truther twats will hopefully be drowned out. The political radicalisation will happen out of peoples expericences.

No revolution started life with massed ranks of revolutionaries. They all start with ordinary, non political people making quite reasonalbe demands for reform - jobs, cheaper bread, an end to corruption or ruinous unjust laws and taxes. If the ruling class refuse to answer these demands - or answer them with violence - it can set off a spiral of radicalisation. And those who set out one day to demand that the king govern justly and remove his corrupt advisors can end up doing the governing themselves and removing the kings head from his shoulders.

(However I do really hope they leave out the jazz hands in meetings bollocks - it alienates people just as much as some trot barking down a megaphone).


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## Mapped (Oct 17, 2011)

This is a class thing, but it's all classes against the theiving 1%

Which is why common sense and not radical ideologies will appeal.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

treelover said:


> Do these conspiracy theorists have an active hatred for jews or is it more abstract, they don't seem like C18 types or even the more 'gentile' League Of St George
> 
> There does seem to be lot of the latter (abstractions) on the OLSX facebook page, 'tentacles' and all that...


could you answer the questions i posed here:


Pickman's model said:


> it's back to the middle ages with the church providing sanctuary against the forces of law and order
> 
> how the fuck has yer man made st paul's 'relevant again'? eh? if the bloody movement needs some god-botherer, some sky pilot, to supply a safe space for the movement to grow, is it a movement which deserves to survive?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Oct 17, 2011)

Explicitly calling themselves anti-capitalist isn't going to do them any favours. It already segregates them from a lot of wider anger at what is happening because the vast majority of those affected and angry would not, yet, identify themselves as anti-capitalist.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> ..... But what many people invovled dont seem to realise is that in directly challenging the wealth and power the top '1%' they are making a very radical demand. If the movement grows to the point of having many thousands on the steets the resonse from the state will become far more aggressive.* The 1% are not going to roll over - they will have to forced.*.....



This conversation, in essence I had with a mate quite some time ago and unfortunately I agree.


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## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> What does 'simple' mean? Surely not having people shout out and interupt in a large assembly is more effective? I don't think it's something to worry about TBH...sure if you are unfamiliar with it you might be thinking 'Hey, wtf?' But it isn't hard, and I don't think it should be feared, as it stands at the moment.
> 
> Anyway, apparently:
> 
> ...


Not a bad start actually


----------



## rekil (Oct 17, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> i hope a trot shoves a paper up that guy's arse, the anti-semitic twat.


Conspiraloons are present at the Dublin one, according to a WSM chap.


> On Saturday, I spoke to individuals who believe in everything from Rawlsian social democracy, to anarchism, to paranoid crypto-anti-Semitic conspiracy theories (the New World Order, etc.), to Stalinism.


Meanwhile, "no party political or union literature or flags" allowed at the demo next saturday.

On the plus side, the 'inner peace workshop' seems to have vanished from today's schedule.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 17, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> For this reason I support the occupy movement. It has the potential to become a radical and radicalising force for change, to link up with workers movements and other progressive forces.


Sure it has the potential to link up with other movements but I can't say I'm hopeful. As butchers has said its just so politically empty that I find it hard to believe that it is going to be anything other than an excuse for some wankers to wear their Guy Fawkes masks.

I mean has any contact be made with any anti-cuts groups? What about linking this to last weeks library closures for example?


----------



## DRINK? (Oct 17, 2011)

Can't wait for the real thing, if they've got this many just for the demo imagine how good it will be when they do it for real


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## DotCommunist (Oct 17, 2011)

copliker said:


> Conspiraloons are present at the Dublin one, according to a WSM chap.
> 
> Meanwhile, "no party political or *union literature or flags*" allowed at the demo next saturday.
> 
> On the plus side, the 'inner peace workshop' seems to have vanished from today's schedule.


 
seems a bit...err..non inclusive. Are union members not under the blanket of 'al genders backgrounds etc' then.


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## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

Open your mind man, the economy is fraudulent,the real money is gold and thats all controlled by the zionist!


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## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> seems a bit...err..non inclusive. Are union members not under the blanket of 'al genders backgrounds etc' then.



why do you have to bring class into it, how divisive man


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## Libertad (Oct 17, 2011)

copliker said:


> Meanwhile, "no party political or union literature or flags" allowed at the demo next saturday.



Feic 'em then. How the fuck do they expect to 'enforce' that? Wankers.


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## Lo Siento. (Oct 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the thing which is going to mobilise people against the financial and political classes in general are the actions of those people. it's not a case of rallying people around a set of abstract notions, it's the actions of people in the city and in parliament which are themselves fomenting disquiet and dissent. this disaffection may be reflected in initiatives like occupy london - but those attracted by this weekend's activity seem to be a curious melange without any real analysis of the situation beyond a vague 'down with this sort of thing' and with an unusually high proportion of conspiraloons. while you wouldn't expect people to turn up with a fully formed and documented analysis of where we are, how we got where we are and where it's hoped to be in six months time, it's depressing that *at best* you suggest this occupylsx business can produce 'a very broad base of activists available to help out with a wide variety of more practical things'. it's long been my view that we have fucking activists coming out of our ears, that activists are the last thing anyone needs, and that activism is something which has brought the british left (of whatever hue) to the poor state it's in now. activists, a sort of poor man's professional revolutionaries, are in my opinion *the greatest obstacle to a positive and effective revolutionary social movement*. in addition, it's by no means more activity we need, but activity which includes and does not exclude, activity in which anyone can take part, activity which shows what is possible.



Take any social movement in history and there were people in it who were more or less active. I'm not saying "brilliant, more people to sticker "do something" gorillas all over the place!" at all. I totally disagree that "the activists" are the greatest obstacle, for whatever their faults, if there really was the basis for a revolutionary social movement waiting to surge forth, then the activists would be swept aside, an utter irrelevance. There isn't, and in that lies their continuing presence.

For all the criticism, they aren't preventing people from carrying out the activity we need. They're engaging in gesture politics against a symbol. That's not going to change the world, but there could, potentially be some positive side effects.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> have seen GA statement (believe it may have been posted here already)
> 
> imo... we need to recognise that people may not be used to these 'passing the stick' processes....
> we alienate people by such 'discussion processes'... hence the global #occupy protests break up into smaller groups so as to explain the decision making process....


Alienate?  A few people didn't like it because they were not sure what was going on at first because they didn't understand the hand signals being used? Easy solved then, more signs and a short exaplaination at the start of each assembly. I personally don't think this discussion process alienates people, it's easy to learn, it's also easy to join in without having to stand up and make a song and dance. Nobody is gonna make you do jazz hands if you don't want to afterall! 



> Remember the first protest you were involved with???...
> . its all about learning from each other.. not disenfranchasing people who are new to the scene???
> anyhows minor detail... Im just bored defending cliche activists....



I agree it's a minor detail, which is why I am a bit  as to why others are making sure a big deal of it.  I also think that if the hand signals being used are being blamed for putting people off, those people are being really picky! I suspect it's more to do with other issues tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

A few points which i don't expect to go down very well.

The last time there were substantial assemblyist movements were in Spain and Portugal in the 70s and 80s on the docks and in the factories. They were enterprise based rather than territorial (you could attend the assembly and put your points but only workers could vote). What kept them going, what made them live was small victories - a boss moved off a line, a compulsory hours overtime removed, a sacked mate re-instated. These small victories and the way they were organised became the default setting, they became the workers common sense, how people thought. The threat of an assembly became enough to get things done. What price some small victories now? Well, there are people whose homes are being repossessed right now, auctions of their possessions taking place right now. It's an open door - the chance to get mobile and build up real networks based in practice (no need for everyone to go) and kick past the process/content stuff that's starting to creep in. I know we're not supposed to have any demands, but lets have some results eh?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 17, 2011)

sihhi said:


> I agree with a lot of what pickman's model says but I want to stress that I think the term "political class(es)" and "financial class" are fairly meaningless. It confuses what 'class' is to mix it or apply it to a group of people on a whim. Does it make sense to talk about a "military class" or "manufacturing class"?
> It also leads to two dangerous ideas:
> 1. If we had MPs only serve one term (i.e. not be a class) things would be better.
> If MPs had to perform a non-politics role for X years before they were allowed to MPs things would be better.
> ...



Don't disagree with any of that. Doesn't bring us any closer to achieving any of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Also, expel the pacifists


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Also, expel the pacifists


 No one biting on that one


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What price some small victories now? Well, there are people whose homes are being repossessed right now, auctions of their possessions taking place right now. It's an open door - the chance to get mobile and build up real networks based in practice (no need for everyone to go) and kick past the process/content stuff that's starting to creep in. I know we're supposed to have any demands, but lets have some results eh?


Yep this was what I was talking about when I mentioned the libraries. Rather than standing around in the middle of London why not occupy places that actually matter - local services that are getting closed down, repossessed houses etc.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Also, expel the pacifists





butchersapron said:


> No one biting on that one



 Well I was just about to say that this seems a more important issue/point of discussion, likely to divide and or alienate people, as opposed to the hand signals used in assemblies.

Violence vs non-violence...it has been under discussion at at least one assembly I attended. There was no consensus.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 17, 2011)

N1 Buoy said:


> Apologies if it's a pearoast. I've only just come across it
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBritain/



Is this the non-facebook version? http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2011)




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## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Violence vs non-violence...it has been under discussion at at least one assembly I attended. There was no consensus.


 There's only one way to find out...


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 17, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> Yep this was what I was talking about when I mentioned the libraries. Rather than standing around in the middle of London why not occupy places that actually matter - local services that are getting closed down, repossessed houses etc.



They could do that though couldn't they?  People could go down, suggest these ideas at the assemblies and try to organise separate actions.

There are a lot of good ideas on display here, but the place to voice them is surely going to be at the occupation itself?  It's there until December as I understand (circumstances permitting).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


>


Now, that level of not being organised puts me off, forget the loons and that.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> They could do that though couldn't they? People could go down, suggest these ideas at the assemblies and try to organise separate actions.
> 
> There are a lot of good ideas on display here, but the place to voice them is surely going to be at the occupation itself? It's there until December as I understand (circumstances permitting).


The whole point is that the occupation extends everywhere - people putting ideas on here are part of it. I will certainly bring this up at the Bristol thing but the lack of bodies makes it moot - doesn't mean the idea(s) can't be picked up by those in London or elsewhere.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 17, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> Yep this was what I was talking about when I mentioned the libraries. Rather than standing around in the middle of London why not occupy places that actually matter - local services that are getting closed down, repossessed houses etc.



My best hope for this now (looking at it from the outside) is that it becomes a base from which actions are launched.  But the immediate signs aren't looking good.. there was this that happened yesterday:


GuyAitchison GuyAitchison 
Just arrived at #occupyLSX. 114 tents. Few hundred ppl. Plan is to picket stock exchange tmrw 7am.

Then the @OccupyLSX feed made a now deleted tweet which said something like "there are no plans to picket the stock exchange. We do not disrupt hard working commuters, that is not our style"..

Which caused a bit of a shit storm, for obvious reasons.. there's clearly some splits in the camp between those who simply want to sit in the square in an isolated protest, and those who want to do other things as well.

I hope that a contingent from the camp will go to support the sparks on Wednesday, but as I didn't hear anything of the stock exchange picket this morning, I'm thinking that didn't really happen, so I can't see anything going on on wednesday..


----------



## BigTom (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> The whole point is that the occupation extends everywhere - people putting ideas on here are part of it. I will certainly bring this up at the Bristol thing but the lack of bodies makes it moot - doesn't mean the idea(s) can't be picked up by those in London or elsewhere.



Yeah, ditto for Birmingham.. 2 tents and 5 people stayed overnight.. I'll be down there for the first time today, and the first general assembly is on Wednesday, so it'll be interesting to see how many people attend.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 17, 2011)

Whats the 'sparks' thing people are referring to?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> Whats the 'sparks' thing people are referring to?


Have a read here KT


----------



## rekil (Oct 17, 2011)

Libertad said:


> Feic 'em then. How the fuck do they expect to 'enforce' that? Wankers.





> They have appointed Sean Creagh, a business studies student from Deansgrange in the south of county Dublin, as their liaison with the Garda Síochána, the Irish police force.


I'm guessing that this guy, a fucking business studies student how are you, will scuttle off in his high vis jacket and inform the nearest copper about any naughty signs/pamphlets and whatnot.

_Business fucking studies._


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Have a read here KT



Ah good one! Dont know how I missed that.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Might have known you would leap to their defence you weird freak



Might have known someone would indulge in unsubstantiated denouncements on U75.

What is wrong with defending the occupation movement at this early stage?

No matter what people do there will always be some smartarse to say how wrong they are.

I've seen a lot of conspiranoid wibble on about how the occupations are secretly backed by the likes of George Soros as another NWO distraction.

The reactionary right are, of course, indulging in their use of "anarchist" as synoymous for "evil" and nasty ill informed "get a job" sneers.

So it is only to be expected that the jargon fetish "considerably more left wing than you" faction are wheeling out the "they don't mention class in quite the precise way I would like" whinge.

It's so pedestrian in it's predictability.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Might have known someone would indulge in unsubstantiated denouncements on U75.
> 
> What is wrong with defending the occupation movement at this early stage?
> 
> ...


How dare people have questions and use their critical judgment eh taffers. Odd for someone coming from your camp to argue people should just accept what they're given.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Might have known someone would indulge in unsubstantiated denouncements on U75.
> 
> What is wrong with defending the occupation movement at this early stage?
> 
> ...



there's a difference between "not using class in the way i would like" and zionist/rothschilds/conspiracy bollocks. these people poison everything they fucking touch. it's not unreasonable at the time of one of the worst recessions in history to not wish these types to hijack - and potentially destroy - any fledgling movement


----------



## Libertad (Oct 17, 2011)

> They have appointed Sean Creagh, a business studies student from Deansgrange in the south of county Dublin, as their liaison with the Garda Síochána, the Irish police force.





copliker said:


> I'm guessing that this guy, a fucking business studies student how are you, will scuttle off in his high vis jacket and inform the nearest copper about any naughty signs/pamphlets and whatnot.
> 
> _Business fucking studies._



Tbf. the Gards will need someone with the ability to _read_ the pamphlets.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> How dare people have questions and use their critical judgment eh taffers. Odd for someone coming from your camp to argue people should just accept what they're given.



I don't know if that is a deliberate mis-read. I don't mind people thinking class should be more overtly mentioned by the Occupations. It's a debate to be had and it's happening here as much as anyone else.

I was reacting to a terse post aimed at me  from SL:


"Might have known you would leap to their defence you weird freak"

What questions was s/he raising there? None. Just some vapid insults. Certainly no critical judgement. Not that you managed to post some dismissive against Spanky for that. Are you being a tad selective in who you denounce?

I am not advancing a case of "accept what you are given". I do think it's too early to dismiss the movement out of hand as a few too many people seem to be starting to do.​


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I don't know if that is a deliberate mis-read. I don't mind people thinking class should be more overtly mentioned by the Occupations. It's a debate to be had and it's happening here as much as anyone else.
> 
> I was reacting to a terse post aimed at me from SL:
> 
> "Might have known you would leap to their defence you weird freak"​What questions was s/he raising there? None. Just some vapid insults. Certainly no critical judgement. Not that you managed to post some dismissive against Spanky for that. Are you being a tad selective in who you denounce?​I am not advancing a case of "accept what you are given". I do think it's too early to dismiss the movement out of hand as a few too many people seem to be starting to do.​


A post which didn't say a damn thing about:



> So it is only to be expected that the jargon fetish "considerably more left wing than you" faction are wheeling out the "they don't mention class in quite the precise way I would like" whinge.


Did it? You just used it as stick to beat everyone else with.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> there's a difference between "not using class in the way i would like" and zionist/rothschilds/conspiracy bollocks. these people poison everything they fucking touch. it's not unreasonable at the time of one of the worst recessions in history to not wish these types to hijack - and potentially destroy - any fledgling movement



It's an open space. Everyone's trying to get their oar in. I agree with you about the difference, but far from every conspiracist is harbouring a secret anti semite agenda. It's probably a waste of all our times to re-bake this issue here and now. I daresay and hope that it will take place out on the street. All these things need to be had out.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It's an open space. Everyone's trying to get their oar in. I agree with you about the difference, but far from every conspiracist is harbouring a secret anti semite agenda. It's probably a waste of all our times to re-bake this issue here and now.



it doesn't matter whether they're openly anti-semitic or not or if they're into some type of "spiritual" woowoo. i'm not just talking about open anti-semites here. they are recognised as loons and known as such.the problem is as much one of perception, i and most people here don't want any kind of protest against the banks to become indelibly linked with the loon movement, we don't want to give the loon movement any credibility. and the moment it becomes linked to the loon movement to the point where people who don't want to see loon stuff are not only being put off, but actively discouraged from attending - see the ban on union stuff etc - that's what will inevitably happen, it will inevitably draw the hardcore anti-semitic nutters in.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> A post which didn't say a damn thing about:
> 
> Did it? You just used it as stick to beat everyone else with.



"everyone else"  - that's some exageration there Butch.

It was part of a broad post covering predictable attacks on the occupations. If people think that class isn't spoken to in the right way, fair enough. Get on down to an occupation and say so, or try and start a local one. If people aint happy with how it goes, they should say so. There are plenty of ways the occupations could go wrong. It doesn't take much imagination to say what they are. But they aint gone wrong yet and I think they should have our broad support with political criticism kept to a neccessary minimum in the short term. Logistics are probably more important right now.


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## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

It's gone from a specific reply to a single post to a broad reply to many posts in one post 

Look, what the hell do you want people to do other then put their disagreements - you say in one post that these things need to be out there and in public yet you attack people for putting their views. You can't have it both ways.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

When I say they "need to be out there" - I mean at the occupations. All this stuff has been had out on the internet for many many years. This is a time for constructive engagement,even if it's critical. It's not a time for "pah - they got it wrong"


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## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Thread over then. Bye.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't want the thread to end. I want any premature negativity to be reigned in.


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## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

You'd do well not to define away any criticisms,thoughts and critical reflection as 'premature negativity'.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> it doesn't matter whether they're openly anti-semitic or not or if they're into some type of "spiritual" woowoo. i'm not just talking about open anti-semites here. they are recognised as loons and known as such.the problem is as much one of perception, i and most people here don't want any kind of protest against the banks to become indelibly linked with the loon movement, we don't want to give the loon movement any credibility. and the moment it becomes linked to the loon movement to the point where people who don't want to see loon stuff are not only being put off, but actively discouraged from attending - see the ban on union stuff etc - that's what will inevitably happen, it will inevitably draw the hardcore anti-semitic nutters in.



Presumbably the more non loons there the better then. I think on larger occupations this is more likely to be the case. Smaller occupations are more at risk numerically from loon (or other harmful group) take over. If you are worried about public percpetion then I would submit that having randoms staggering around drunkenly shouting at all hours is more likely to be an obvious issue early doors.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You'd do well not to define away any criticisms,thoughts and critical reflection as 'premature negativity'.



Good job that I didn't then. Also, there are a whole load of logisical lessons that are going to be learned on the hoof.


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## pianissimo (Oct 17, 2011)

Is St Paul still being occupied?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You'd do well not to define away any criticisms,thoughts and critical reflection as 'premature negativity'.


Yes you did, and you invented a person arguing that the bumpf doesn't talk about class in the right way.


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## BigTom (Oct 17, 2011)

pianissimo said:


> Is St Paul still being occupied?


the square outside it yes, 140 odd tents apparently.


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## pianissimo (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Just to re iterate Butch - the post that sparked this  little cul de sac was from SL slating me as a "weirdo freak" when I "defended" the occupation somewhat over their handling of the class issue.

How occupations should address class is open for debate, I was reacting more to SL than my feeling about that critique. However that critique is one of a few I listed (the one I am most sympathetic to hearing out) that have been trotting out on the internet and press in recent days. They all sound a bit stale to be honest, and as I have said (and is obvious) "we are the 99%" is a fairly clear allusion to class.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Now, that level of not being organised puts me off, forget the loons and that.



Ah well! I see it as an opportunity to support them. Have a few sleeping bags, a tent and some blankets that they can have, planning to take them down when I visit tomorrow. I figure some people have stayed on who didn't plan to, also that staying there needs to be supported. I don't think it's easy to set up a campsite just anywhere.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> Take any social movement in history and there were people in it who were more or less active. I'm not saying "brilliant, more people to sticker "do something" gorillas all over the place!" at all. I totally disagree that "the activists" are the greatest obstacle, for whatever their faults, if there really was the basis for a revolutionary social movement waiting to surge forth, then the activists would be swept aside, an utter irrelevance. There isn't, and in that lies their continuing presence.
> 
> For all the criticism, they aren't preventing people from carrying out the activity we need. They're engaging in gesture politics against a symbol. That's not going to change the world, but there could, potentially be some positive side effects.


there is a different from people being active and people being activists. people being active in any campaign or social movement can be people from any walk of life, any age, any creed. activists, by contrast, are imo so named because they are active apparently for the sake of activity. not all activity promotes a cause, and much actually retards its interests. one thing which retards the appearance and interests of a revolutionary social movement is the sort of event you see in the city now. the idea that the people gathered there are the sort of people who others up and down the country can identify with is laughable: and the anodyne statements emanating from the city are not going to influence many people towards the sort of activity which could move forward anti-statist, anti-capitalist politics. the liberal wank coming out of the occupylsx affair puts people off activity which could be construed as revolutionary and most certainly does not attract them.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Agreed! ^^^ It's like those who always moan about the SWP...I always think...'well at least they are doing something!' We don't have to agree on everything...it's the things we do agree on that are important IMO!



The reason people moan about the SWP is because of *what* they do - their agenda of entryism into other movements in order to turn them into membership resources.
Remember StWC before and after the Swappies? Remember Socialist Alliance before and after the Swappies?

I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> ffs.. there seems to be a heap of people here who know the 'pure dictum' way to protest...
> scratch that...
> Its a learning curve for all of us.... no dogma? the fluidity of protest is the beauty imo....
> doing, rather than talking, is the best way to learn innit?


so you're not too keen on this occupylsx either then


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there is a different from people being active and people being activists. people being active in any campaign or social movement can be people from any walk of life, any age, any creed. activists, by contrast, are imo so named because they are active apparently for the sake of activity. not all activity promotes a cause, and much actually retards its interests. one thing which retards the appearance and interests of a revolutionary social movement is the sort of event you see in the city now. the idea that the people gathered there are the sort of people who others up and down the country can identify with is laughable: and the anodyne statements emanating from the city are not going to influence many people towards the sort of activity which could move forward anti-statist, anti-capitalist politics. the liberal wank coming out of the occupylsx affair puts people off activity which could be construed as revolutionary and most certainly does not attract them.



I don't think your neat little division stands up to much analysis tbh. "Activists" with a capital A are just normal people like anyone else, involved to a variety of degrees with other activities that are more or less useful.

This is just a mirror of the media's line that people have to qualify for a certain degree of "typicalness" to be worth listening to, and that, by definition, people protesting have to be weirdos.

Beyond the usual stuff about being "off-putting", I don't see how they're actually retarding anything, given that the field is still open to whoever to start whatever initiative they fancy. At worst, it's pointless, to describe it as actively damaging is well over the top.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

treelover said:


> Do these conspiracy theorists have an active hatred for jews or is it more abstract, they don't seem like C18 types or even the more 'gentile' League Of St George
> 
> There does seem to be lot of the latter (abstractions) on the OLSX facebook page, 'tentacles' and all that...



Two of the oldest, most hackneyed narratives in the conspiraloon arsenal are that Jews are behind everything bad, and that "the illuminati" are behind everything bad (and of course *Jews* took over the illuminati soon after inception, apparently!).We supposedly stand behind everything CTers stand against.
Therefore an "active hatred"  of us isn't necessary. An adherence to CT often encourages a prejudice (i.e. "an irrational fear") towards Jews, it's a prejudice that could be said to be semi-institutionalised, even if you code your prejudice with references to "international bankers" and "lizards".

The problem is that this prejudice sees "Jews" as a monolithic and homogeneous "bloc" of people sharing the same motivations, needs and desires, the same sins. It's the sort of prejudice that produced centuries of pogroms in the Russian empire and its' satellites, and eventually the holocaust in the 3rd Reich. If you see a people as a monolithic and homogeneous entity, then you deny their individuality, you deny the fact that Jews aren't homogeneous, but are rather heterogeneous. Denying those things makes it/has made it easier to hate us and, for some people, easier to consider our annihilation.

Personally I see the anti-Jewish prejudice of some CTers as a marker of their lack of ability to apply logic to their researches, and a display of unfamiliarity with Occam's Razor.


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## TruXta (Oct 17, 2011)

Ah, but Lo Siento, what you don't get is that if a social movement isn't revolutionary it is by definition wibewal capitalist clap-trap - ergo it is actively damaging Teh Cause.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> I don't think your neat little division stands up to much analysis tbh. "Activists" with a capital A are just normal people like anyone else, involved to a variety of degrees with other activities that are more or less useful.
> 
> This is just a mirror of the media's line that people have to qualify for a certain degree of "typicalness" to be worth listening to, and that, by definition, people protesting have to be weirdos.
> 
> Beyond the usual stuff about being "off-putting", I don't see how they're actually retarding anything, given that the field is still open to whoever to start whatever initiative they fancy. At worst, it's pointless, to describe it as actively damaging is well over the top.


i made clear what i mean by activist in post 319, which you quoted and where you didn't take issue with my definition - it seems to have flown over your head. your bit about 'normal people' doesn't add anything to your facile nonsense.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> to be honest that entire thing is shot through with anti-semitism. if you believe that shite that all the talk of rothschilds, the gold standard, the federal reserve, 9/11, and that, that it's nothing to do with hatred for the Jews and that t's all about opening your mind man, that that's true, you're either an idiot not worth listening to or you're lying



Believing an over-arching narrative that fixes the blame to a (relatively) small number of actors is always going to appeal to people who don't have the capacity to accept that the chaos of ongoing history occasionally resembles ordered events.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> there's always unpleasant stuff on the 9/11 sites. these people do need to be kept out



I don't agree.

"Keep your friends close..." and all that.


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> so you're not too keen on this occupylsx either then


oh very keen... long may it grow and flourish....


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## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> oh very keen... long may it grow and flourish....


i like your sarcasm


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## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> "Keep your friends close..." and all that.


fair play. the problem is tho that they end up poisoning/discrediting things they get involved in and putting peopre off, to say the least


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## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Just briefly been to Birmingham camp. First conversation involved chemtrails and fluoride in the water. Not good.


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## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Just briefly been to Birmingham camp. First conversation involved chemtrails and fluoride in the water. Not good.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Just briefly been to Birmingham camp. First conversation involved chemtrails and fluoride in the water. Not good.


How many people there today?

The Sydney protests seem to have largely fizzled out.


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## TruXta (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Just briefly been to Birmingham camp. First conversation involved chemtrails and fluoride in the water. Not good.



In situations like that I like to argue that chemtrails are actually the delivery mechanism whereby the lizards are injecting fluoride into the drinking water supply in order to stop the sheeple from realising that we are all brain-batteries in vats powering the n-dimensional holosimulator from whence the Greys and SATAN rules the Earth. That usually shuts them up.


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## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

hit a nerve, eh.


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## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> How many people there today?


Two makeshift benders, about 10 people hanging around. Street type people on first impressions, not a slur on them, but maybe a bit alienating for some. A very vague manifesto about being a slave to money. No mention of cuts, squeeze on wages, housing, N30 strikes etc. Early days though.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> I don't think your neat little division stands up to much analysis tbh. "Activists" with a capital A are just normal people like anyone else, involved to a variety of degrees with other activities that are more or less useful.



My thinking is somewhere between yours and Pickman's Model. I've always been aware of, and generally contemptuous of, the elements of "professional activism" throughout the left. By this I mean not the committed and sincere women and men who sometimes risk their lives on the front-lines of protests, but the plastic revolutionaries in their offices and their committees, sitting safe and deciding "policy" while others get their skulls bashed.
Those kinds of "activists", the ones who want to direct from one remove, are the sort that no movement actually needs. If you want to "lead", then lead from the front or not at all.


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## rekil (Oct 17, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> seems a bit...err..non inclusive. Are union members not under the blanket of 'al genders backgrounds etc' then.


The WSM, Eirigi and a couple of other tiny lefty groups came up with the 1% thing at least 18 months ago so it seems a bit peculiar to try to exclude them. They'll be nicking their walking tour next.


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## BigTom (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Two makeshift benders, about 10 people hanging around. Street type people on first impressions, not a slur on them, but maybe a bit alienating for some. A very vague manifesto about being a slave to money. *No mention of cuts, squeeze on wages, housing, N30 strikes etc*. Early days though.



this kind of stuff was definitely around on Saturday/Sunday though. Perhaps it's a case of those who are able/willing to spend the night there and actually camp out who are into the CT stuff.. I'm going down in a bit, so I'll report back what I find.

If you have 15 minutes to watch this video then you get quite a different impression.. I only watched it once, but I saw just one placard mentioning NWO, and in the interview bit I don't remember any CT stuff at all, though there's some hippyness going on with the guy at the end.
Embed doesn't seem to want to work so here's a link:  http://www.youtube.com/v/vn5RSoCkIuE?version=3

I really hope that it doesn't turn out to be mainly CT types and even worse the zionist banking conspiracy wankers.


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## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

loads of issues, but the GA statement has no mention on CT, etc, it is a basic defence of democracy and the welfare state, its global but very british...


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## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

http://www.jewishjournal.com/opinio...itism_to_destroy_occupy_wall_street_20111014/

a different view


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## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

BigTom said:


> this kind of stuff was definitely around on Saturday/Sunday though. Perhaps it's a case of those who are able/willing to spend the night there and actually camp out who are into the CT stuff.. I'm going down in a bit, so I'll report back what I find.
> 
> If you have 15 minutes to watch this video then you get quite a different impression.. I only watched it once, but I saw just one placard mentioning NWO, and in the interview bit I don't remember any CT stuff at all, though there's some hippyness going on with the guy at the end.
> Embed doesn't seem to want to work so here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/v/vn5RSoCkIuE?version=3
> ...



Not a bad vid, but there are people on about UK being a limited company and birth certificates being a scam, which is standard Freemen of the Land crap, but the basic underlying message was spot on.  The bloke who went on about chemtrails is on there too.  Lots of vague waffling about humanity being one for my taste.

Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but without talking about issues which directly affect them, i.e. housing, health services, jobs, schools etc, then most people are gonna ignore it.  I see nothing in this vid that makes me think this will draw in ordinary people.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Attacking capitalism is anti semitic. Everyone knows that. Marx hated jews. So does Chomsky.


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## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Attacking capitalism is anti semitic. Everyone knows that. Marx hated jews. So does Chomsky.


Stop. Right now.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

LOL - I have spent years here trying to figure out common ground between the broad left and "truthy" types. I never had much luck and now it's going to be taking place at an occupation near to you. All well and good I say, so long as people play the ball, not the (wo)man.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Just briefly been to Birmingham camp. First conversation involved chemtrails and fluoride in the water. Not good.


One out of two isn't so bad, especially given the varying degrees of mistrust in governments/corporations/financial institutions.

Chemtrails is one of the top 10 American-origin conspiracy theories and can be readily debunked: http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../browse-all-issues/2010/fall/patriot-paranoia. Although it began in anti-federal government rightwing patriot circles, even hippies and other natural-living people will sometimes talk about them. It's easy to talk about as long as you remember it's all part of the widespread general mistrust (not unwarranted either) in corps/govts/capital.

Fluoride in the water is something I'd be inclined to agree with being against, given numerous non-conspiraloid cast-iron case studies in Ireland showing massive incidences of fluorosis (damage to teeth and bones) in the young. Improved dental access beats medicating all water. Again, it's a talking point. The government doesn't want to spend the money on increasing dental access for kids. I'd argue that it's worth it for the long-term benefits.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> LOL - I have spent years here trying to figure out common ground between the broad left and "truthy" types. I never had much luck and now it's going to be taking place at an occupation near to you. All well and good I say, so long as people play the ball, not the (wo)man.


Or say the wrong things.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Stop. Right now.


OK.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> One out of two isn't so bad, especially given the varying degrees of mistrust in governments/corporations/financial institutions.
> 
> Chemtrails is one of the top 10 American-origin conspiracy theories and can be readily debunked: http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../browse-all-issues/2010/fall/patriot-paranoia. Although it began in anti-federal government rightwing, hippies and other natural-living people will sometimes talk about them. Easy to talk about as long as you remember it's all part of the widespread general mistrust in corps/govts/capital.
> 
> Fluoride in the water I'd be inclined to agree with, given numerous non-conspiraloid cast-iron case studies in Ireland showing massive incidences of fluorosis (damage to teeth and bones) in the young. Improved dental access beats medicating all water. Again, it's a talking point.


No it's not. It's fucking irrelevant. If you want to make the argument _OMG they don't care about us_ there's far better untainted examples.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> One out of two isn't so bad, especially given the varying degrees of mistrust in governments/corporations/financial institutions.
> 
> Chemtrails is one of the top 10 American-origin conspiracy theories and can be readily debunked: http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../browse-all-issues/2010/fall/patriot-paranoia. Although it began in anti-federal government rightwing, hippies and other natural-living people will sometimes talk about them. Easy to talk about as long as you remember it's all part of the widespread general mistrust in corps/govts/capital.
> 
> Fluoride in the water I'd be inclined to agree with, given numerous non-conspiraloid cast-iron case studies in Ireland showing massive incidences of fluorosis (damage to teeth and bones) in the young. Improved dental access beats medicating all water. Again, it's a talking point.



Apparently fluoride in the water is used for mind control in prison camps, according to this bloke.

Its crap and not directly relevant to anyone.  All it does is make people think "loonies!".


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> One out of two isn't so bad, especially given the varying degrees of mistrust in governments/corporations/financial institutions.
> 
> Chemtrails is one of the top 10 American-origin conspiracy theories and can be readily debunked: http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../browse-all-issues/2010/fall/patriot-paranoia. Although it began in anti-federal government rightwing, hippies and other natural-living people will sometimes talk about them. Easy to talk about as long as you remember it's all part of the widespread general mistrust in corps/govts/capital.
> 
> Fluoride in the water I'd be inclined to agree with, given numerous non-conspiraloid cast-iron case studies in Ireland showing massive incidences of fluorosis (damage to teeth and bones) in the young. Improved dental access beats medicating all water. Again, it's a talking point.



Totally. The nazis didn't use it for nothing. You can't say so without some smartarse invoking Godwin, but it doesn't make it less true


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Totally. The nazis didn't use it for nothing. You can't say so without some smartarse invoking Godwin, but it doesn't make it less true


The nazis used barbed wire too. They used things that are normal. You're ruining it.


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

'While on the streets, moments of madness occasionally erupt in the protest crowd -- accompanied by whiffs of marijuana, grungy clothing and disarray -- order prevails at the storage site.It doubles as a sort of Occupy Wall Street central command post, with strategic meetings that are separate from the "general assembly" free-for-alls in the park. One subject Sunday was data entry: protesters are working to get the names and addresses of donors into a databank, to thank them for their gifts.'

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9QDP8181.htm

Btw, anyone who thinks there are 'no leaders' in the occupy movement is wrong, RTS, EF all had de facto leaders, etc often self chosen...


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> If you want to make the argument _OMG they don't care about us_ there's far better untainted examples.


Which so far, from your high horse, you haven't yet deigned to inform us all about, instead preferring to verbally deride the approaches of others.

So, are you going to continue to Victor Meldrew us all with your complaining about the imperfection of everyone's elses' approaches from your high horse, or are you going to teach us your way and share your tools?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> The nazis used barbed wire too. They used things that are normal. You're ruining it.


You're obfuscating. Did they use flouride out of concern for the molars and incisors in the reich?

How much I am "ruining it" - I don't know. The propagation of the "truth" agenda at the occupations seems to be a very live issue.

Not that I would or have wibbled on about flouride (or 911 etc, Freeman OTL stuff.) at such spaces, but others seem happy to, and it is hard to justify how such free speech could or should be verbotten.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Totally. The nazis didn't use it for nothing. You can't say so without some smartarse invoking Godwin, but it doesn't make it less true


It didn't even cross my mind about nazis - I only know it's done alot of damage to teeth/bones in forcibly fluoridated Ireland.

There are more pressing things to discuss though - like the NHS, the cuts, the lack of jobs, the cost of living rises, etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You're obfuscating. Did they use flouride out of concern for the molars and incisors in the reich?
> 
> How much I am "ruining it" - I don't know. The propagation of the "truth" agenda at the occupations seems to be a very live issue.
> 
> Not that I would or have wibbled on about flouride (or 911 etc, Freeman OTL stuff.) at such spaces, but others seem happy to, and it is hard to justify how such free speech could or should be verbotten.


What am i hiding?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> It didn't even cross my mind about nazis - I only know it's done alot of damage to teeth/bones in forcibly fluoridated Ireland.


Key thing here.


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## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Totally. The nazis didn't use it for nothing. You can't say so without some smartarse invoking Godwin, but it doesn't make it less true



FUCK. OFF.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> It didn't even cross my mind about nazis - I only know it's done alot of damage to teeth/bones in forcibly fluoridated Ireland.



Refs please? Tend to agree that it's not worth having "debates" with troofers and CTers... FFS just look at Jazzz on here and tell me what good 10 years of counter-arguments have done. CTers are about emotions and emotionally invested ideologies, not about reasons and sound arguments. They are detrimental to the "occupy" movement.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm more than a little surprised that the irrelevance that is Charlie Veitch hasn't raised his greasy megaphone yet.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Which so far, from your high horse, you haven't yet deigned to inform us all about, instead preferring to verbally deride the approaches of others.
> 
> So, are you going to continue to Victor Meldrew us all with your complaining about the imperfection of everyone's elses' approaches from your high horse, or are you going to teach us your way and share your tools?



Come on, this ain't difficult.  If the first contact someone has with the occupy thing is some loon going on about chemtrails and fluoride, what impression does that give?  Are they gonna go away thinking "yeah, this is directly relevant to my life and needs, I'll support that" or "they seem like a bunch of loons"?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

I like the way that luther uses 'us' - your legs working today then?


----------



## Mapped (Oct 17, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Is this the non-facebook version? http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/



Thanks  I was looking for that last night but ganja muddled my noggin


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

Polly vs The TPA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4iLOP1WCVk

Btw, Is he one of the libertarian in 'that photo', now he has had a haircut!


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Come on, this ain't difficult. If the first contact someone has with the occupy thing is some loon going on about chemtrails and fluoride, what impression does that give? Are they gonna go away thinking "yeah, this is directly relevant to my life and needs, I'll support that" or "they seem like a bunch of loons"?


I agree. But if my first contact (or several first contacts) consisted of this, then I'd just have the conversation with them. I know most of the CTs and it's much easier to talk about what's really going on. The big conspiracy about CTs is it stops people form talking about what's going on. So bat that ball at the CTers when you meet them. Truth is stranger than fiction, etc.

I don't know what else you want me to say. If you think I left something out, then YOU SAY IT.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I agree. But if my first contact (or several first contacts) consists of this, then I'll just have the conversation with them. I know most of the CTs and it's much easier to talk about what's really going on. The big conspiracy about CTs is it stops people form talking about what's going on. So bat that ball at the CTers when you meet them. Truth is stranger than fiction, etc.
> 
> I don't know what else you want me to say. If you think I left something out, then YOU SAY IT.



I approached the occupy Birmingham as an ordinary person, not as a politico, asked them what it was all about, and got the answer that it was about "the economy, the banks, the fake queen, chemtrails and fluoride in the water". That is not how you make it relevant to people and turn it into a mass movement.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Having said that though, I am assured that there are wiser people involved too.  I just hope they can prevail.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

The upshot of this conversation is that some of the people who are involved have substituted CT for involvment, so deep is their mistrust of the governments/corportations, and with the advent of the internet, CTs have become more widespread, not less.

The solution is to deal with this - what way would you suggest, if you don't agree with my down-to-earth approach?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I like the way that luther uses 'us' - your legs working today then?


'us' as in everyone having this conversation on urban - the same place where you are also discussing the occupy movement.

is that another of your stalling tactics to avoid coming out with anything useful that others could use?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> The upshot of this conversation is that some of the people who are involved have substituted CT for involvment, so deep is their mistrust of the governments/corportations, and with the advent of the internet, CTs have become more widespread, not less.
> 
> The solution is to deal with this - what way would you suggest, if you don't agree with my down-to-earth approach?



The need is clear for further engagement and hoping to steer them to making themselves more relevant.  If they don't, they will make themselves an irrelevance and will be gone in a few days.  If it doesn't grow, it will fizzle out.

Overt anti-semites and free market types need booting out straight away.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> 'us' as in everyone having this conversation on urban - the same place where you are also discussing the occupy movement.
> 
> is that another of your stalling tactics to avoid coming out with anything useful that others could use?


Yes, yes it is.


----------



## chilango (Oct 17, 2011)

treelover said:


> Btw, anyone who thinks there are 'no leaders' in the occupy movement is wrong, RTS, EF all had de facto leaders, etc often self chosen...



EF! did not have "de facto leaders", self-chosen or otherwise. I can't comment on your other examples


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Attacking capitalism is anti semitic. Everyone knows that. Marx hated jews. So does Chomsky.



stop


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

Just noticed Dave Balfe is posting on the FB site, ex Teardrop Explodes, owner Food Records(Blur)

won't he be seriously rich from the record label?

wonder if Julian will join in?


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> If it doesn't grow, it will fizzle out.



I suspect it'll fizzle soon enough, what with the weather getting colder & wetter.

Nice idea, but at the end of the day it's the wrong time of the year.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> I suspect it'll fizzle soon enough, what with the weather getting colder & wetter.
> 
> Nice idea, but at the end of the day it's the wrong time of the year.



Yeah, that's what I think.  Unless it turns into occupying libraries threatened with closure etc, like someone suggested.


----------



## past caring (Oct 17, 2011)

Then they could burn some books to keep warm, eh taffy?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 17, 2011)

Libertad said:


> I'm more than a little surprised that the irrelevance that is Charlie Veitch hasn't raised his greasy megaphone yet.



he was there on saturday, but haven't seen any evidence of megaphones yet.

he wound up the Love Police anyway http://www.cveitch.org/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Attacking capitalism is anti semitic. Everyone knows that. Marx hated jews. So does Chomsky.



We're not talking about attacking capitalism though, are we? We're talking about a manifestation of anti-Semitism that posits the thorough infiltration (and in some cases the creation)of capitalism by Jews, and then purports to attack capitalism, but whose attacks on capitalism are actually coded attacks on Jews.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

the "capitalism" of the conspiracy theorists is only a specific type of industry within a capitalist system as well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Stop. Right now.



Don't stop him. Let him keep showing himself up for a fool or worse!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> It didn't even cross my mind about nazis - I only know it's done alot of damage to teeth/bones in forcibly fluoridated Ireland.
> 
> There are more pressing things to discuss though - like the NHS, the cuts, the lack of jobs, the cost of living rises, etc.



Fluoride does harm when it is introduced to water that hasn't been analysed. Most cases of flourosis have occured when water that already *naturally* contained fluorides and/or some other trace elements was fluoridated.


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2011)

fantastic article by student leader Michael Chessum

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/17/students-occupy-lsx-education-white-paper


----------



## Libertad (Oct 17, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> he was there on saturday, but haven't seen any evidence of megaphones yet.
> 
> he wound up the Love Police anyway http://www.cveitch.org/



I await his re-incarnation with bated breath.


----------



## grit (Oct 17, 2011)

Libertad said:


> I await his re-incarnation with bated breath.



This is going a bit off topic, but hasnt he been at the center of a lot of accusations about abusing women?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fluoride does harm when it is introduced to water that hasn't been analysed. Most cases of flourosis have occured when water that already *naturally* contained fluorides and/or some other trace elements was fluoridated.


In Ireland, by age five, one quarter of children present with fluorosis. Objections aren't just about visible presentation on their teeth, they're about the unseen presentation in the bones. Personally have no idea yet how this will affect bones through to old age. All I was trying to say was that it's not CT to be against fluoride. Although some of the arguments (like the nazi one) obviously are CT arguments. And this is the last I'll talk about it, because I'm trying to gather some unbiased data on the Zeitgeist movement and other CT claims.


----------



## dylans (Oct 17, 2011)

Libertad said:


> I await his re-incarnation with bated breath.


He's an annoying twat but he is right in this vid about conspiracy theorists being the enemy and as a former conspiroloon himself, its important that he said so


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

grit said:


> This is going a bit off topic, but hasnt he been at the center of a lot of accusations about abusing women?


Yes, he has, but I'm not sure if they're smears or real. Does anyone know? My suspicion is the former.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

dylans said:


> He's an annoying twat but he is right in this vid about conspiracy theorists being the enemy and as a former conspiroloon himself, its important that he said so


LOL. He's right about CTs.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 17, 2011)

grit said:


> This is going a bit off topic, but hasnt he been at the center of a lot of accusations about abusing women?


 
All I've seen is an unsubstantiated set of accusations from an ex. So fuck knows.


----------



## past caring (Oct 17, 2011)

dylans said:


> He's an annoying twat but he is right in this vid about conspiracy theorists being the enemy and as a former conspiroloon himself, its important that he said so



And in three months time he'll be a hare krishna.

"As a committed anarchist....."


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 17, 2011)

I honestly don't know what to say to these twoofers - I just feel like saying "You're wrong, stop it." But that doesn't help. Talked to one on Saturday who went on about Zeitgeist. I just rolled my eyes because that was the most polite response I could summon. I know from experience that rational argument doesn't work. So what do we do about them here? Anyone fancy collecting their zany theories and some responses into a leaflet?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

past caring said:


> And in three months time he'll be a hare krishna.
> 
> "As a committed anarchist....."


Possibly - a wee dig around implies he's made alot of enemies. Never heard of him until today.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 17, 2011)

He looks like he lives in a well nice pad!


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> I honestly don't know what to say to these twoofers - I just feel like saying "You're wrong, stop it." But that doesn't help. Talked to one on Saturday who went on about Zeitgeist. I just rolled my eyes because that was the most polite response I could summon. I know from experience that rational argument doesn't work. So what do we do about them here?


I just put up a call on fb for some assistance re CTs esp Zeitgeist. 





> Anyone fancy collecting their zany theories and some responses into a leaflet?


Yes.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

Good up to the bit where he says "stop paying your tax" lol.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 17, 2011)

About the conspiraloonary... I have a mate who has turned to this. He's always out on direct action, which I respect a great deal, but is always telling me to watch zeitgeist this youtube movie, and freemasons that youtube movie. He seriously drives me potty. What's more is that you simply CANNOT talk to him reasonably about it.

If I do ever challenge him he gets all shouty. He says it's becuase he's "not very good at arguing his point across and [he] can't find the right words to say".

I say he gets shouty cos he's completely potty and has a distinct lack of facts to hand other than "watch the Youtube video".

So all in all "committed anarchist" blokey is right. I've never been more turned off by direct action than this mate of mine.  

It's sad cos he's losing a lot of good mates over it too.  Too much preaching to the "sheeple".


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> I honestly don't know what to say to these twoofers - I just feel like saying "You're wrong, stop it." But that doesn't help. Talked to one on Saturday who went on about Zeitgeist. I just rolled my eyes because that was the most polite response I could summon. I know from experience that rational argument doesn't work. So what do we do about them here? Anyone fancy collecting their zany theories and some responses into a leaflet?



Stop being polite to them and start making them unwelcome.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 17, 2011)

It's difficult tho isnt it - i've got a mate who's always been really sound, always supported what i've done re protests and that - but recently she's stated posting up zeitgeist/conspiraloon type bollocks on facebook. if they're a twat you can always just tell them to fuck off but it's differetn if they're a close mate. suppose i just have to wait for her to bring it up next and then try and argue with her gently.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Stop being polite to them and start making them unwelcome.


Yeah, I kind of like the idea, but it would also change the everyone-welcome atmosphere at occupations.


----------



## past caring (Oct 17, 2011)

Good.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 17, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> It's difficult tho isnt it - i've got a mate who's always been really sound, always supported what i've done re protests and that - but recently she's stated posting up zeitgeist/conspiraloon type bollocks on facebook. if they're a twat you can always just tell them to fuck off but it's differetn if they're a close mate. suppose i just have to wait for her to bring it up next and then try and argue with her gently.



Yeah, really hard.  I hope your mate falls out with it as quickly as she fell in.

My Bf and I have taken to avoiding this guy now.  It's a shame cos my boyfriend's known him for more than 10 years and he is a nice guy with his heart in the right place.  We haven't dumped him, we still see him, just less than we used to because he's REALLY hard work and takes up a lot of energy.  We have to mentally prepare ourselves for him before we arrange a meeting iykwim.  Bah! I just want our mate back.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 17, 2011)

Re: the pacifist thing, tangentially related to the 'inclusive atmosphere' and so on- these lot haven't had a slap yet have they. OB do not hold caucus on the issue of violence before they steam in and these lot will soon learn this if they become a proper nuisance. Is it likely that the thought or actuality of robust opposition from the PTB might clear the loon element out?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

I had a mate like that, FLB (and frogwoman). After a couple of years of arguing about it, we just don't talk anymore - his head is totally warped by rense/jones/zeitgeist and he's unable to connect with any meaningful activisms.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

PTB? What does that mean?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 17, 2011)

powers that be


----------



## past caring (Oct 17, 2011)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Yeah, really hard. I hope your mate falls out with it as quickly as she fell in.
> 
> My Bf and I have taken to avoiding this guy now. It's a shame cos my boyfriend's known him for more than 10 years and he is a nice guy with his heart in the right place. We haven't dumped him, we still see him, just less than we used to because he's REALLY hard work and takes up a lot of energy. We have to mentally prepare ourselves for him before we arrange a meeting iykwim. Bah! I just want our mate back.



When she was about 22 my sister started trying to convince anyone who would listen to her that she had the "proof" that Jesus had existed and was, in fact, a woman. "The patriarchy" had conspired to keep this fact from the world.

She was, of course, bonkers in the nut - and to be honest, from some of the stuff you say about your mate's behaviour, it sounds like they might well be, too. A lot of these truthers don't need to be reasoned with, they need the shrink and the liquid cosh. And if the liquid one doesn't work.....


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2011)

From the assembly in London, a collectively agreed initial statement.

A brief summary:

A need for an alternative.
Against the cuts.
Support for strikes on the 30th November and solidarity action.
Independent regulators.
An end to wars.
Structural changes towards global equality.

http://occupylsx.org/?p=221


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

past caring said:


> And in three months time he'll be a hare krishna.
> 
> "As a committed anarchist....."


Looking at a recent video, it's clear the CTers HATE HIM WITH A VENGEANCE (link here: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=_BrV9S3NdiE).

Irony is, these CTers are calling Veitch a shill, but probably lap up everything Alex Jones says ... there's been good reason to suspect Jones for a very long time ... what with him being a major disinfo agent to rival Rense, plus him being friends with one of the UK architects of the EDL, not to mention his interviews with UKIP's Farage (srsly).


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> It's difficult tho isnt it - i've got a mate who's always been really sound, always supported what i've done re protests and that - but recently she's stated posting up zeitgeist/conspiraloon type bollocks on facebook. if they're a twat you can always just tell them to fuck off but it's differetn if they're a close mate. suppose i just have to wait for her to bring it up next and then try and argue with her gently.



Yeah, it's not as easy as making them not welcome, obviously.  I have a couple of mates who are into this crap too.  I make my opinions very clear to them every time it comes up.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> The need is clear for further engagement and hoping to steer them to making themselves more relevant. If they don't, they will make themselves an irrelevance and will be gone in a few days. If it doesn't grow, it will fizzle out.
> 
> Overt anti-semites and free market types need booting out straight away.



This is how the people at #OWS is dealing with antisemites - report by Dan: http://mobius1ski.tumblr.com/post/11575039711/lies-damned-lies-antisemitism-at-occupy-wall-street


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

How many more times?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Yeah, it's not as easy as making them not welcome, obviously. I have a couple of mates who are into this crap too. I make my opinions very clear to them every time it comes up.


No, it's not that easy - read Dan's article that he published about an hour ago, on how OWS have not been able to rid themselves of antisemitic sign-man, and have instead countered his sign in other ways.



butchersapron said:


> How many more times?


Dan published that article an hour ago. What's your problem? Don't like the way Jews are dealing with antisemites at OWS? Or do you favour Kristol or Bone's approach? WTF?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 17, 2011)

I agree that people at the occupation should be arguing that the truthers and other assorted Conspiraloons should be fucked right off. Let em go and do their loonspuderry somewhere else. The only people put off would be be assorted lizard worriers, closet jew baiters and those who are happy in the head. So no loss to anyone.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> No, it's not that easy - read Dan's article that he published about an hour ago, on how OWS have not been able to rid themselves of antisemitic sign-man, and have instead countered his sign in other ways.
> 
> Dan published that article an hour ago. What's your problem? Don't like the way Jews are dealing with antisemites at OWS? Or do you favour Kristol or Bone's approach? WTF?



Surely someone can have a quiet word in his shell like?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> I agree that people at the occupation should be arguing that the truthers and other assorted Conspiraloons should be fucked right off. Let em go and do their loonspuderry somewhere else. The only people put off would be be assorted lizard worriers, closet jew baiters and those who are happy in the head. So no loss to anyone.


I think being on the steps of St. Paul's and the open 'blessing' of the CofE might put a few of the Zeitgeisters off, lol.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Surely someone can have a quiet word in his shell like?


He was there long before OWS, so unlikely. He's been standing there with that sign like forever!


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Instead of a No CTs Pls leaflet, how about a poster? A poster can be uploaded to the Occupy website and cld be resized to A5 or A6 for ease of distr and to save your voice when encountering a CTer (hand them a leaflet instead).


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> He was there long before OWS, so unlikely. He's been standing there with that sign like forever!



I don't mean in a polite non-threatening manner.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> No, it's not that easy - read Dan's article that he published about an hour ago, on how OWS have not been able to rid themselves of antisemitic sign-man, and have instead countered his sign in other ways.
> 
> Dan published that article an hour ago. What's your problem? Don't like the way Jews are dealing with antisemites at OWS? Or do you favour Kristol or Bone's approach? WTF?


It contains the same crap, and it doesn't contain a damn thing about the problems i brought up with this approach. I've been asking you for two days now to address it.


----------



## Corax (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I don't mean in a polite non-threatening manner.


Probably a bit late for that if the NYPD are already on the case protecting “his constitutional right to be here”.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It contains the same crap, and it doesn't contain a damn thing about the problems i brought up with this approach. I've been asking you for two days now to address it.


Me and my shadowy cabal will get back to you at some point in the future after we've put our heads together.
If you want to get directly involved, please join the Occupy Judaism page on facebook.

You don't get to dictate how US-based Jews address antisemitism on OWS. If you have ideas then share them, but haranguing me about this will get you nowhere fast.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Me and my shadowy cabal will get back to you at some point in the future after we've put our heads together.
> 
> You don't get to dictate how US Jews address antisemitism on OWS. If you have ideas then share them, but haranguing me will get you nowhere fast.


I get to say what i think will backfire, i get to say how the examples you offer are of very different contexts. And you get to ignore it and pretend the objections don't exist. Everyones a winner.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

You don't have an alternative plan. You just sit there and criticise unconstructively. If you have ideas, let's hear them.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

While I agree with FrowWoman about "truthers" denouncement of capitalism as being limited, I think it is a bit too simplistic to expect them to be "booted out" as I think someone said upthread. The occupations are on public space and make much celebration of it, it is hardly in the spirit of things to get all exclusivist about it.

"We are the 99% minus anyone who we decide to disagree with" just doesn't have the same ring somehow. It is the 99% tag that is sticking, that by definition means the occupation are a broad church. Broad churches need broad discussions, not broad denouncements or broad splits

Further, the "truthers" are just as on to faults of the banking system as many leftists are.

To Luther Blissett and others:

If I was seeking to "deal" with the CTers and lessen the extent to which their wibble may pollute broad anti/non capitalist objectives I would first of all agree that conspiracies do exist and that theorising about them is fine. This is both to show a modicum of respect and wrong foot them. I know I am often taken as a CT apologist on here, which is funny and ironic because elsewhere in the world the CT lot often accuse me of being some kind of dupe for "them". I love seeing them become scrambled when it becomes obvious that I can namecheck just as many obscure "researchers" and whacko theories as they can - and debate the whys and wherefores of each on their own merits rather than blankly accept or reject each as part of a joblot.

Of course, beyond a call for "sound money" and spurious libertarian (i.e capitalist) aims the CTers are very short on solutions compared to anarchists, socialists and greens. All they can go on about is "waking people up". I think the wake up with regards to the failings of capitalism is starting to happen big style. I couldn't give a monkeys about making someone agree with my 911 agnosticism at this particular point.

So, politely it perhaps needs to be let known to CTers that whatever they may think about Luciferianism and George Bush Snr being into child abuse, these are not the arguements to just come out at random with to the public at such a protest. Neither, for what it's worth do I think constant references to "class struggle" and other orthodox left terminology. Debate among ourselves is one thing, but the message to the public needs to be kept simple and probably not too detailed. Stick to the facts in agreed statements.
But we can only request this be done politely. Disassociating a protest from CTers, if that is agreed by consensus, may be politically justified but I would wager it is not all that practically possible.

My attempts to find common ground are not without reason. If splits and arguments are happen they will despirit activists and alienate the public. As it happens I still think pissheads may turn out to be the bigger problem.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You don't have an alternative plan. You just sit there and criticise unconstructively. If you have ideas, let's hear them.



People do not need an alternative plan to point out the flaws in others that is a fundementally elitist and anti democratic position to take.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> While I agree with FrowWoman about "truthers" denouncement of capitalism as being limited, I think it is a bit too simplistic to expect them to be "booted out" as I think someone said upthread. The occupations are on public space and make much celebration of it, it is hardly in the spirit of things to get all exclusivist about it.
> 
> "We are the 99% minus anyone who we decide to disagree with" just doesn't have the same ring somehow. It is the 99% tag that is sticking, that by definition means the occupation are a broad church. Broad churches need broad discussions, not broad denouncements or broad splits
> 
> ...



Crap.  The "truthers" (the serious ones anyhow) are right wing.  Fuck 'em.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You don't have an alternative plan. You just sit there and criticise unconstructively. If you have ideas, let's hear them.



Your legs still not working? What sort of mad logic is this, i have a shit idea, it's shit, if you can't come up with a shitter idea my shit idea wins.

And, for the record you blind clown i''ve told you exactly how to deal with these people. Through the assemblies not your unilateral action.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Further, the "truthers" are just as on to faults of the banking system as many leftists are.



No they're not, they think we need to return to the gold standard and limit the power of the Jews.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Corax said:


> Probably a bit late for that if the NYPD are already on the case protecting “his constitutional right to be here”.


OWS's Zionists-at-his-Hamster Sign Man was there with this sign long before OWS.  Kristol never bothered to make a film about him until now.


----------



## dylans (Oct 17, 2011)

Corax said:


> Probably a bit late for that if the NYPD are already on the case protecting “his constitutional right to be here”.


Accidents happen. People slip, break limbs, sustain head injuries etc all the time. Cups of steaming hot coffee get accidentally spilled. Noones fault. just saying


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

> 911 agnosticism



Agenda clear


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> People do not need an alternative plan to point out the flaws in others that is a fundementally elitist and anti democratic position to take.


How do you think OWS should deal with Zionist-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

dylans said:


> Accidents happen. People slip, break limbs, sustain head injuries etc all the time. Cups of steaming hot coffee get accidentally spilled. Noones fault. just saying


WTF? Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man is delusional, but advocating hurting him for being delusional? He's been holding that sign for a very long time afaik.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> How do you think OWS should deal with Zionist-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man?



I don't really care, I don't particularly support the Occupy [insert name here] movement anyway.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 17, 2011)

interesting quick read by skywarrior...


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Crap. The "truthers" (the serious ones anyhow) are right wing. Fuck 'em.


Yes, that's spot on. The top ten CTs originated in far-right US-Patriot anti-federal-govt circles.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../browse-all-issues/2010/fall/patriot-paranoia

What far-right Christian televangelist republican Pat Robertson doesn't know about the NWO ain't worth knowing, lol (joke) ..

However, people in UK who 'believe' in the NWO CT or other CTs aren't necessarily right-wing or Pat Robertson-loving Christians.


----------



## dylans (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> WTF? Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man is delusional, but advocating hurting him for being delusional? He's been holding that sign for a very long time afaik.


Nick Griffin is delusional too but I wouldn't tolerate his presence on a demonstration.


----------



## past caring (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> WTF? Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man is delusional, but advocating hurting him for being delusional? He's been holding that sign for a very long time afaik.



Not for being delusional, but because his continued presence facilitates those who wish to tar the protest as anti-semitic. Something that couldn't happen if he was fucked out.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

past caring said:


> Not for being delusional, but because his continued presence facilitates those who wish to tar the protest as anti-semitic. Something that couldn't happen if he was fucked out.


If Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster-Sign-Man hadn't already existed, Kristol would have invented him to have a go at the OWS movement and the Democrats anyway. You probably knew that.

Anyway - read Dan's article - they've tried to disinclude/chase him off: 





> The conservative media, now relying on the new anti-Occupy Wall Street smear campaign created by William Kristol’s Emergency Committee for Israel, keeps pointing to this bigoted asshole with his “Zionists control Wall St.” sign as evidence that OWS is a purely antisemitic movement.
> 
> Yet they’re conveniently editing out the people standing around him at all times with signs saying he’s an asshole and unrepresentative of OWS. People have been trying to chase him from the park since day one, but the NYPD says that if the protesters have a right to freedom of assembly, so does he. As such, they are protecting him and, as one cop told me yesterday, “his constitutional right to be here.”


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Crap. The "truthers" (the serious ones anyhow) are right wing. Fuck 'em.



You may have a point. Except for ones who ain't of course.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Agenda clear



Not at all clear. Having seen just about every bit of CT and anti CT thing going, I don't know what happened with regard to that event and I don't trust anyone who expresses certainty. Anyways, here and now aint the place for it, as I was saying.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> No they're not, they think we need to return to the gold standard and limit the power of the Jews.



1 out of 2 wouldn't be so bad, but for the second being simplistic and offensive.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Butchers is right, the format for addressing these issues is through the assemblies, though I would ask anyone to avoid calling people "jew haters" with scant evidence to go on. Watch the public drain away.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2011)

**


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You may have a point. Except for ones who ain't of course.



Which ones are they?  It comes with an entire world view, which is racist and right wing.


----------



## dylans (Oct 17, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> If Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster-Sign-Man hadn't already existed, Kristol would have invented him to have a go at the OWS movement and the Democrats anyway. You probably knew that.


Perhaps but he and those like him do exist and therefore present a very real threat to the legitimacy of the movement. What if the Klu klux Klan turn up or the White Supremacists. Should they be tolerated too?

This is a fundamental problem with trying to build a movement that is all things to all people. It is impossible. There has to be at least a minumum of agreed principles and anti racism should be an obvious one. They should take a vote on excluding those who are explicitly racist or reactionary and then act on that vote by warning them off if possible, but by force if necessary.


----------



## GEN.Eccentric (Oct 17, 2011)

Meanwhile in London


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

GEN.Eccentric said:


> Meanwhile in London


The focus seems to be on the two upcoming strikes (general and student), the NHS cuts, and anti-war.


----------



## gunneradt (Oct 17, 2011)

GEN.Eccentric said:


> Meanwhile in London



this is better than Cartoon Network - they'll start weaving baskets and milking goats any minute


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 17, 2011)

dylans said:


> Perhaps but he and those like him do exist and therefore present a very real threat to the legitimacy of the movement. What if the Klu klux Klan turn up or the White Supremacists. Should they be tolerated too?
> 
> This is a fundamental problem with trying to build a movement that is all things to all people. It is impossible. There has to be at least a minumum of agreed principles and anti racism should be an obvious one. They should take a vote on excluding those who are explicitly racist or reactionary and then act on that vote by warning them off if possible, but by force if necessary.


It's very, very, very, very, very, very unlikely that white supremacists will try to join the movement in the US.
You probably know that the Tea Party are already dead against it.

Over here in UK, the usual EDL/BNP twitters are already against it and unlikely to join in.
The 'libertarian' right so far appear to be against (Old Holborn, Guido Fawkes).
Supporters of all these have been trolling and mocking 'the left' (as they call it) since the OLSX protest began.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

In the UK, there are Freemen of the Land types involved, who aren't exactly friendly to the left.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Which ones are they? It comes with an entire world view, which is racist and right wing.



I disagree, although our wires may be crossed. The banks practice fraud, they have done for a long time though the advent of computer trading and the abolition of regulation has made it worse. Where is the inherent "world view", still less racist or right wing stuff that comes with that demonstrable analysis?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I disagree, although our wires may be crossed. The banks practice fraud, they have done for a long time though the advent of computer trading and the abolition of regulation has made it worse. Where is the inherent "world view", still less racist or right wing stuff that comes with that demonstrable analysis?



You know as well as I do, that this stuff comes with a heap of other stuff, like advocating a return to a gold based standard, viewing the banks as the sole problem, global " financial elites" etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

...


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2011)

Occupy Bristol set-up camp.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201...stdssXz40yiLOf9vt-CFCONX01FRS-32kg9XXX&ref=nf


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> My thinking is somewhere between yours and Pickman's Model. I've always been aware of, and generally contemptuous of, the elements of "professional activism" throughout the left. By this I mean not the committed and sincere women and men who sometimes risk their lives on the front-lines of protests, but the plastic revolutionaries in their offices and their committees, sitting safe and deciding "policy" while others get their skulls bashed.
> Those kinds of "activists", the ones who want to direct from one remove, are the sort that no movement actually needs. If you want to "lead", then lead from the front or not at all.


yeh, those plastic types are the sort of people i'm against, and you're right, there are a lot of brave and committed people out there doing their best to make a difference who i'm all in favour of.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> In the UK, there are Freemen of the Land types involved, who aren't exactly friendly to the left.



Now they are a bunch who got on my tits recently. Not that I find their ideas uninteresting, although all that knowledge ought to be put to more use than trying to get out of parking fines.

Thing is, a young and impressionable friend of mine was up for a public order offence and tehy were telling him he should just defy the court. All very well for them to say when someone else's balls are on the line. It was a shockingly irresponsible line, besides which he had, even in their own terms, already submitted to the authority of the system.

We know how arrogant and "I know best" the truthers can be, but it doesn't behove us to be just as arrognat and broad brush. There are things in common, and things that differ. They need constructive debating at some time because both "camps" seem to have a voice in the occupations. I'm not sure if people in either camp have the patience though. The amount of flaming and insults I've had from both sides would have put a lot of people off. Now you will excuse me, I have to go and make my own crucifix


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2011)




----------



## Corax (Oct 17, 2011)

Are there people there identifying with anon, or do they just like the masks?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 17, 2011)

I went down there this morning with some food. They have a camp kitchen set up. If you want to take any food they would welcome it.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

I like the guy in the top photo who is wearing a suit with the "time's up" board. Activists in suit scramble the branes of many a conservative.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

From Occupy Toronto, but well worth posting here.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 17, 2011)

Took them some rope and gaffa tape this evening.  Was quite windy down there.

This was the crowd at the main assembly.  Started about 7pm.






They've been donated some marquees too, so the kitchen and media tents are going to get a bit better.  Someoe said some solar power was arriving tomorrow.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 17, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i made clear what i mean by activist in post 319, which you quoted and where you didn't take issue with my definition - it seems to have flown over your head. your bit about 'normal people' doesn't add anything to your facile nonsense.


throughout both posts I took issue with your definition of "activists". As an aside, if you were looking for the definition of a shite, easy explanation then activsts retarding social change by "putting people off" is pretty much it, tbh.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I like the guy in the top photo who is wearing a suit with the "time's up" board. Activists in suit scramble the branes of many a conservative.



Yep, rather than those stupid 'anon masks' and 'free hugs' nonsense.

Seen video of what looked like a huge march in Brussels over the weekend and some stirrings in Edinburgh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> throughout both posts I took issue with your definition of "activists". As an aside, if you were looking for the definition of a shite, easy explanation then activsts retarding social change by "putting people off" is pretty much it, tbh.


i didn't say that activists retard social change though, did i? do you really read and actually comprehend what people post? because it doesn't fucking look like it from where i'm sat.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 17, 2011)

They have a chatroom if anyone wants to try and participate without actually going.

Dunno how effective it'll be but...

http://irc.lc/indymedia/OccupyLSX


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Oct 17, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I went down there this morning with some food. They have a camp kitchen set up. If you want to take any food they would welcome it.



Is it for free, or do you have to pay?



I don't trust these types. They proclaim liberty from financial constraints, the when you take what they offer for free they slam you down.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 17, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Not a bad vid, but there are people on about UK being a limited company and birth certificates being a scam, which is standard Freemen of the Land crap, but the basic underlying message was spot on. The bloke who went on about chemtrails is on there too. Lots of vague waffling about humanity being one for my taste.
> 
> Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but without talking about issues which directly affect them, i.e. housing, health services, jobs, schools etc, then most people are gonna ignore it. I see nothing in this vid that makes me think this will draw in ordinary people.



That bit obviously went in one ear and out the other  I know there at FOTL types there. I hope that it does nothing more than get them in trouble with the law, but I understand the right wing ideology that underlies it.

I agree with you, but I'd also say that actually a lot more people were stopping and reading their big sign and taking a leaflet and being interested than has happened at any anti-cuts thing I've done in town, except perhaps the first big UK Uncut action at the start of december last year.
However, if they are then being met with discussions that are about chemtrails and love then it's not going to follow through..
I've only spent a few hours there this afternoon, but I think ordinary people are being drawn in. Not just from what is directly there but because they know of the whole occupy/99% thing and support it.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Oct 17, 2011)

You know what's wrong with this thread?

You're all talking about them/they/those.

None of you really believe.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 17, 2011)

Was down at St Paul's tonight. Ended up in a discussion group of 10 with 4 trots (dispiriting not because they were trots but because they kept spouting abstract 'radical' theory, then suggested we target tax-evading retail outlets). Then I had a discussion with a conspiracy theorist who thought the Illuminati and the Rothschilds control everything (apparently it's not about _race_, it's particular _families_ who control the world ). I also had a discussion with a self-confessed Blairite who was surprisingly open-minded and obviously there because he wanted to have his mind opened a bit more. And I met a fair few cool people who understood they were in it for the long haul, building alternative power to oppose and restructure.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 18, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Totally. The nazis didn't use it for nothing. You can't say so without some smartarse invoking Godwin, but it doesn't make it less true


And you wonder why SL called you a loon.


----------



## DownwardDog (Oct 18, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> The focus seems to be on the two upcoming strikes (general and student), the NHS cuts, and anti-war.



What about fucking climate change? It's pissing down here.

The capital owning class is breathing a sigh of relief as OccupyWhatever attempts to mitigate its utter lack of politics with top down ambiguous bullshit.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 18, 2011)

Utter lack of politics?


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 18, 2011)

As an aside, a welfare tent should be showing up tomorrow afternoon. Unpaid, of course, so will be short of supplies... if you're going down with a mind to... tea, milk, sugar etc would be great.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 18, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> They have a chatroom if anyone wants to try and participate without actually going.
> 
> Dunno how effective it'll be but...
> 
> http://irc.lc/indymedia/OccupyLSX


hmmmm...  should be kinda secure using IRCs.. prop old school.. though i would advise anyone using this channel to spoof their IP....
There are other safer IRCs around... i have heard reports of UK Indy's keeping records of participants IPs....
ah well.. always be safe when using 'internet communication spaces'......


----------



## ska invita (Oct 18, 2011)

> I went to visit the Occupy London site at St Paul's today. I went with the specific intention of getting people to talk to me about what their goals were, what the strategy was, and how they viewed the politics of the occupation. To this end, I went round nabbing people for interviews, and eventually ended up talking to someone at the media tent. Before delving into the politics of Occupy London, I want to describe what's involved in sustaining such an activity for those who aren't able to be there.... http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/visiting-occupy-london.html



Great article. Positive yet critical and ultimately optimistic [@ dylans]


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> You know what's wrong with this thread?
> 
> You're all talking about them/they/those.
> 
> None of you really believe.


----------



## dylans (Oct 18, 2011)

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/visiting-occupy-london.html

Great article. Positive yet critical and ultimately optimistic


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

People on facebook saying that the police are breaking up the St Pauls camp...anyone confirm??


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

> *Occupy London - police breaking up camp now - HELP*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


> *Film everything*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

so much for it becoming a permanent fixture


----------



## magneze (Oct 18, 2011)

^ That's now been hidden, so this may not be true.


----------



## IC3D (Oct 18, 2011)

*This article has been hidden under the site's editorial guidelines.  *


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


>


haha


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

WTF? I just saw it....


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> WTF? I just saw it....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


>



You are _very_ strange.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 18, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't say that activists retard social change though, did i? do you really read and actually comprehend what people post? because it doesn't fucking look like it from where i'm sat.


oh sorry, retard the formation of a revolutionary social movement was it? Same nonsense, basically.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

Lo Siento. said:


> oh sorry, retard the formation of a revolutionary social movement was it? Same nonsense, basically.


no, it's very different. social change can occur for a wide range of reasons, from above and below.


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 18, 2011)

It's former RCPer Brendan O'Neill with his thought-provoking take on #Occupy. (I'm being sarcastic btw).



> The protesters occupying the area outside St Paul's claim to be carrying out a "breach of the status quo". Depicting themselves as a cross between revolutionaries and rock festival attendees, they say they are "challenging the system". Apparently they have launched a "seismic event". Really? Before making such claims, I really think they ought to consult the following guide, which I have titled "How To Tell If Your Uprising Is A Challenge To The Status Quo".
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/b...the-ruling-classes-smile-rather-than-tremble/



I wonder what he has to say about the RCP's "Preparing for power" thing back in the 80's? What a pillock.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 18, 2011)

Depicting themselves as a cross between revolutionaries and rock festival attendees

Its cuntish statements like this that makes it the most read broadsheet


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Daily Fail are secretly very interested...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rotest-camp-includes-extra-Downton-Abbey.html


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Daily Fail are secretly very interested...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rotest-camp-includes-extra-Downton-Abbey.html


 ffs
that starbucks queue says it all about some of them really!
and the willingness to have their pics and 'stories' stuck in the paper
puke


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Oct 18, 2011)

ddraig said:


> ffs
> that starbucks queue says it all about some of them really!
> and the willingness to have their pics and 'stories' stuck in the paper
> puke


 
What does the queue say?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 18, 2011)

It says to me that there's probably only one bog in the camp.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What does the queue say?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



It says people want the toilet and we live in a country where our taxes don't seem to pay for free public toilets anymore, despite it being a criminal offence to go in public.

Someone was spotted drinking Coca Cola too!!!  Outrage.  Imagine being fed up with banks and drinking Cola?  And why should Coca Cola behave in a fair way when people could just boycott them?  Although I tried this once and everything I looked at seemed to be made under licence for Coca Cola.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2011)

past caring said:


> When she was about 22 my sister started trying to convince anyone who would listen to her that she had the "proof" that Jesus had existed and was, in fact, a woman. "The patriarchy" had conspired to keep this fact from the world.
> 
> She was, of course, bonkers in the nut - and to be honest, from some of the stuff you say about your mate's behaviour, it sounds like they might well be, too. A lot of these truthers don't need to be reasoned with, they need the shrink and the liquid cosh. And if the liquid one doesn't work.....



I generally ask people who _spiel_ me CTs to shave their thesis with Occam's razor, and if it stands up to that, then I'll talk with them. Amazing how many don't get back to me.
I'm also a believer in keeping myself up-to-date with the latest mutations/versions of CT, so I read _Nexus_ and a couple of other publications, and lurk on a few boards. It's intersting how much CTs are like Lego. You can take a bit from this model and that model and put them together and come up with something new, and that's why so many CTers love them - the same bunch of narratives inform their thinking on everything, just like any other belief system does.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It says to me that there's probably only one bog in the camp.


good point!


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> It says people want the toilet and we live in a country where our taxes don't seem to pay for free public toilets anymore, despite it being a criminal offence to go in public.
> 
> Someone was spotted drinking Coca Cola too!!! Outrage. Imagine being fed up with banks and drinking Cola? And why should Coca Cola behave in a fair way when people could just boycott them? Although I tried this once and everything I looked at seemed to be made under licence for Coca Cola.


wean yourself off it


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

Louis MacNeice said:


> What does the queue say?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


it says that i jumped the gun and didn't think of the obvious point butchers made
but also that some of them may be clueless cunts


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> No they're not, they think we need to return to the gold standard and limit the power of the Jews.



You'll never limit the powers of the Jews!!! MWahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> How do you think OWS should deal with Zionist-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man?



Zippo to the placard, small-calibre bullet to the testicles for the placard-waver.

You know it makes sense.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> WTF? Zionists-Ate-My-Hamster Sign Man is delusional, but advocating hurting him for being delusional? He's been holding that sign for a very long time afaik.



Perhaps a Zionist *did* eat his hamster?

Sarah Netanyahu has *always* reminded me of that woman from the sci-fi series "V".


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

ddraig said:


> wean yourself off it



I don't drink the stuff, but they seem to be involved in lots of products.  Only when you start looking at the small print that you realise just how dominant they are.  Not just drinks either...


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> You are _very_ strange.



I've often wondered if he is actually a member of the E.O.D.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> I don't drink the stuff, but they seem to be involved in lots of products. Only when you start looking at the small print that you realise just how dominant they are. Not just drinks either...


yes i know, it is a right pain, i love diet coke and used to be sort of addicted to it but made myself stop and do not buy lilt etcetcetc even when that is the only option, i go without
looking at labels is also a pain but with vegans in my immediate family i am used to it


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2011)

@D/M article, they really are a varied bunch of protesters, nice of the D/M to even personally identify each tent!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 18, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Was down at St Paul's tonight. Ended up in a discussion group of 10 with 4 trots (dispiriting not because they were trots but because they kept spouting abstract 'radical' theory, then suggested we target tax-evading retail outlets). Then I had a discussion with a conspiracy theorist who thought the Illuminati and the Rothschilds control everything (apparently it's not about _race_, it's particular _families_ who control the world ).



The "bloodlines" _schtick_. Another of those codes that allows some CTers to be Judaeophobic on a nod and a wink to their "right-thinking" interlocutors.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 18, 2011)

Glasgow occupation being evicted.
 They need assistance! If you can, get down to George Square asap!
 Please share! 07835 215 787


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

sunnysidedown said:


> I've often wondered if he is actually a member of the E.O.D.


if by eod you mean esoterick order of dagon i will neither confirm nor deny it


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

Okay...off down there in a bit. Any questions you want answers too? Want anything written in Street chalk?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Okay...off down there in a bit. Any questions you want answers too? Want anything written in Street chalk?


'return to your homes and prepare for government'  - on the pavement in yellow chalk pls


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2011)

@rutita,

 ask them are they going to support the Sparks, a key moment imo...


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2011)

Weed, skunk?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> 'return to your homes and prepare for government' - on the pavement in yellow chalk pls



Heh! I have yellow chalk....


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Heh! I have yellow chalk....


off you go then


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> off you go then


......I will be back, with pics.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> ......I will be back, with pics.



No weed?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> ......I will be back, with pics.


don't forget your camera then


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Glasgow occupation being evicted.
> They need assistance! If you can, get down to George Square asap!
> Please share! 07835 215 787


i will be there in about a month.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

TruXta said:


> No weed?


Don't smoke weed. Get your own!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 18, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> don't forget your camera then


 I want you to remember this post.

Later.


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2011)

Oh, and when are they going to start using mega-phones, etc instead of those cultish recantations?


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 18, 2011)

treelover said:


> @rutita,
> 
> ask them are they going to support the Sparks, a key moment imo...


And if so what form will this support take.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

treelover said:


> Oh, and when are they going to start using mega-phones, etc instead of those cultish recantations?


you don't know what a recantation is, do you? twat.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 18, 2011)

take that back!


----------



## DownwardDog (Oct 18, 2011)

ddraig said:


> ffs
> that starbucks queue says it all about some of them really!
> and the willingness to have their pics and 'stories' stuck in the paper
> puke



It's a ludicrous basis on which to criticise the Occupards. You can't just live your life in an alternate universe just because the actual and existing one isn't to your political taste. I have Hannan+ views on socialised medicine but I didn't object every time they scraped me up and loaded me into an NHS ambulance after my many motorcycle accidents.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 18, 2011)

treelover said:


> @rutita,
> 
> ask them are they going to support the Sparks, a key moment imo...


yes, this.

If the big construction firms manage to destroy the JIB agreement it will have a huge negative impact on all electricians across the country, and would give the green light for all other trades to be further attacked as the JIB system's about the best example of all trades that I'm aware of.

We're not formally part of the JIB system, but still use it to know what the going rate should be as I'm sure do loads of smaller companies who employ sparks but are not formally part of the JIB system, so having the JIB system so badly undermined as to make it an irrelevance will have a massive impact across the board. It would also mean the big companies could then undercut any other companies attempting to stick to current JIB wage rates for their sparks, creating pressure for a downward wage spiral in the industry.

If the occupy lot are to be seen to actually stand for anything concrete, then they really need to get some significant support down to the sparks demo tomorrow (IIRC). If they do this, then there might actually be a chance of gaining some respect and solidarity from the union grassroots. Got to be more effective a use of their time than just camping on the steps of st pauls IMO.

eta - and it looks like it's 2-3 blocks away from st pauls...http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ainst-35-pay-cut-de-skilling-ec4v-4dy.282700/


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2011)

'you don't know what a recantation is, do you? twat.'

How nice, actually I don't, but it sounded right...


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Don't smoke weed. Get your own!



Not what I meant. I meant you should go down and ask people if THEY want skunkweedskunk.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2011)

Brendan O'Neill of 'Spiked':



> The ruling classes are trembling only with joy that the Occupy movement has taken the heat off them and turned it instead on to tiny numbers of rich blokes in red braces.


All those in agreement say aye.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/b...the-ruling-classes-smile-rather-than-tremble/


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

DownwardDog said:


> It's a ludicrous basis on which to criticise the Occupards. You can't just live your life in an alternate universe just because the actual and existing one isn't to your political taste. I have Hannan+ views on socialised medicine but I didn't object every time they scraped me up and loaded me into an NHS ambulance after my many motorcycle accidents.


what the fuck are you on about? 
how the fuck can you compare choosing other coffee/tea places over cunty starbucks to having to use the NHS???
are you fucking serious? 
it is very easy to avoid starbucks, m&s and such like
it is obviously not easy to avoid being picked up off the road by the nhs
now is it?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 18, 2011)

DownwardDog said:


> It's a ludicrous basis on which to criticise the Occupards. You can't just live your life in an alternate universe just because the actual and existing one isn't to your political taste. I have Hannan+ views on socialised medicine but I didn't object every time they scraped me up and loaded me into an NHS ambulance after my many motorcycle accidents.


That makes you an idiot y'know


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> It's former RCPer Brendan O'Neill with his thought-provoking take on #Occupy. (I'm being sarcastic btw).
> I wonder what he has to say about the RCP's "Preparing for power" thing back in the 80's? What a pillock.


Haha. Found it. Radical Revolutionaries do not end up taking corporate cash to write about GMO favourably? Radical Revolutionaries do not end up writing blogs in the Daily Telegraph?

RCP's Preparing for Power c.1984: http://scr.bi/r0O6W9

Occupy Movement - More relevant than the Revolutionary Communist Party ever was 
Occupy Movement - on the steps of St. Pauls part of a global movement
RCP - never really made it out of Hornsey Road,  where a bunch of male-dominant gobby chauvinists authoritarianised their transient audience into submission and tried to sell them the scribblings of their dear leaders.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Glasgow occupation being evicted.
> They need assistance! If you can, get down to George Square asap!
> Please share! 07----


Whose number is that?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

treelover said:


> Oh, and when are they going to start using mega-phones, etc instead of those cultish recantations?



Don't think they'll need them, what with the PA system and radio-mics they had at the assembly last night.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Is it for free, or do you have to pay?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't trust these types. They proclaim liberty from financial constraints, the when you take what they offer for free they slam you down.



What I meant is that if you want to donate any food for the camp u can take it down there. They were giving out food for free. It was busy this morning when I went down there. They now have a tent set up for the food area.They were not asking people if they were in the camp or anything like that either.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 18, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> As an aside, a welfare tent should be showing up tomorrow afternoon. Unpaid, of course, so will be short of supplies... if you're going down with a mind to... tea, milk, sugar etc would be great.



Sugar yes they told me that they need that.Took down a bag today. Seems the campers use a lot of sugar.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi-de-Hi


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 18, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Sugar yes they told me that they need that.Took down a bag today. Seems the campers use a lot of sugar.



Sweet.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

My favourite tweet so far comes from a conservative congressman   



> I believe radical anarchists have used their superior organisation to take over #ows


http://twitter.com/#!/RepJackKimble/status/126273932151095298


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

Taxpayers' Alliance are out in force today, not supporting the people as per usual. Do they get charity status? They shouldn't. Note how Sky abbreviates 'Taxpayer's' - proof that they only represent one person! LOL


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

free spirit said:


> yes, this.
> 
> If the big construction firms manage to destroy the JIB agreement it will have a huge negative impact on all electricians across the country, and would give the green light for all other trades to be further attacked as the JIB system's about the best example of all trades that I'm aware of.
> 
> ...



I've posted the details on the occupy london facebook page and event page, but without going there later, I can't do much more.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ok.  I sent an email to the press email too.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> .



Problem?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 18, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Taxpayers' Alliance are out in force today, not supporting the people as per usual. Do they get charity status? They shouldn't. Note how Sky abbreviates 'Taxpayer's' - proof that they only represent one person! LOL




Owned! The fat fucking heap of shit. A worthlessly, useless good-for-nothing intellectual brownshirt piece of filth had his balls skewered live on tv  - good to watch.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

Jeff - 'intellectual' is taking it too far


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2011)

Paul Mason on Newsnight tonight..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/fromthewebteam/


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 18, 2011)

ddraig said:


> what the fuck are you on about?
> how the fuck can you compare choosing other coffee/tea places over cunty starbucks to having to use the NHS???
> are you fucking serious?
> it is very easy to avoid starbucks, m&s and such like



It's not very important though is it? These tiny-minority consumer boycott campaigns are not really worth agonising over. I choose to avoid certain products too sometimes but I know how little (nothing) it achieves so I don't care that much. If I'm hungry and the only place open is McDonalds I eat McDonalds. It doesn't mean I'm a hypocrite, just that I choose to put my energy into things that might produce real change. Perspective is all I ask for...


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 18, 2011)

Moon on a stick.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

with the number of coffee places about is it really that difficult to choose somewhere else?

my point was that upside down janine was talking a steaming pile of shit and was a totally crap comparison


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 18, 2011)

ddraig said:


> with the number of coffee places about is it really that difficult to choose somewhere else?
> 
> my point was that upside down janine was talking a steaming pile of shit and was a totally crap comparison


But it's also not hard to talk about the substantive political issues around the occupation, so why not do that?


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 18, 2011)

Who cares where they piss?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

They saw Starbucks.  They shat in it.  Hardly supportive.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 18, 2011)

fine, i conceded that point and even i shit/piss in them and mcshite

i was taking issue with downward dogs stupid non point about the nhs


----------



## bingiman (Oct 18, 2011)

Seems to me to be a lot of little generals unhappy that things aren't going their way. I don't support 100% of anything, let alone #occupy. But at least they are articulating an anger that mainstream and extreme traditional politics has failed to address. It is easy to criticise, less easy to engage.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 18, 2011)

I've just been kicked out of the Occupy Birmingham Facebook group for criticising anti-semitic statements.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2011)

They don't like it up 'em.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 18, 2011)




----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

> @counterfireorg Counterfire
> 
> #*OccupyLSX* and #*siteworkers* together Blackfriars station tomorrow, 7am. Be there. Stop the construction bosses attacks #*NoCuts*


http://twitter.com/#!/counterfireorg/status/126407512311349249


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

Police blockade coming under fire (directed at the protesters though )



> Traders under threat from City protesters
> 
> Businesses near the London Stock Exchange say they could be hit by a "catastrophic" loss of trade if anti-capitalist protests outside St Paul's Cathedral go on until Christmas.
> 
> ...



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23999705-traders-under-threat-from-city-protesters.do


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 18, 2011)

> *Boris Johnson urged to meet Occupy London Stock Exchange activists*
> 
> But while the London mayor and the prime minister have been invited to address Occupy London Stock Exchange activists, they might have to wait to get their audience.
> 
> ...




Read more: http://www.metro.co.uk/news/878988-boris-johnson-urged-to-meet-occupy-london-stock-exchange-activists#ixzz1bAhInm1s


----------



## bingiman (Oct 18, 2011)

> The ‘calm and peaceful’ activists claim they are receiving tip-offs from bankers horrified by the economy.



Buy gold I suspect.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 18, 2011)

The really daft thing is that quite a lot of the "truth" brigade are online saying how the occupations are some kind of Soros front and all controlled etc.

So the truthers who are at the occupation are presumably dupes of the very people they are out campaigning against, and people denouncing the NWO are all part of some NWO plot, ah yes. Hidden in plain sight innit. If THEY are secretive it proves they are up to know good. If THEY are out in the open, it proves it is part of the luciferian masonic plot.

Don't just be a sheeple zombie. It's what THEY want.

Don't protest, it makes you a dupe for THEM.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2011)

So, has anyone score any weed down there yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2011)

TruXta said:


> So, has anyone score any weed down there yet?


or oregano


----------



## TruXta (Oct 18, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> or oregano



It's the thought that counts.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I've just been kicked out of the Occupy Birmingham Facebook group for criticising anti-semitic statements.


That's a terrible shame. This one? https://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBrum/
If you want to pm me the details, our small team of online anti-racists can cross-ref with known online-racist trolls.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 18, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> The Alabama one? I can't see a UK group for that and the twitter group for it is tiny



https://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBrum/


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The really daft thing is that quite a lot of the "truth" brigade are online saying how the occupations are some kind of Soros front and all controlled etc.
> 
> So the truthers who are at the occupation are presumably dupes of the very people they are out campaigning against, and people denouncing the NWO are all part of some NWO plot, ah yes. Hidden in plain sight innit. If THEY are secretive it proves they are up to know good. If THEY are out in the open, it proves it is part of the luciferian masonic plot.
> 
> ...


I think Alex Prisonplanetinforwars Jones came out against the occupy movement today.
I thought he might, lol.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 18, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> https://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBrum/


If you like you could pm me your facebook username and then I could figure out what happened and challenge it too.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> https://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBrum/


Whatever happened on the OccupyBrum wall has created divisions with new walls popping up.
Try this one as well https://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Birmingham/246106318768785?sk=wall
or this one: https://www.facebook.com/groups/218084498258542/


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> So, has anyone score any weed down there yet?



You seem obsessed with this. Are you clucking?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I think Alex Prisonplanetinforwars Jones came out against the occupy movement today.
> I thought he might, lol.



'Wall street and their foot-soldiers, the commies, bank-rolled by George Soros. It's a conspiracy I tell ya!'

[/rant]


----------



## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

Well that was an amusing row 

It looks like the two people who put across the zionist bullshit are leaving the group of their own volition rather than being banned.. another group has been setup that won't allow any zionist or anti-zionist posting (which is a bit odd, liberal authoritarianism?).. The person who set it up was clearly against the zionism stuff but didn't want people to row over it.

I'm amused that I didn't get banned out of the group, from the sounds of it I was much more forthright than Blagsta.

Will see how this develops before I stop being part of it. At the moment I think that the zionist fucks have been made to feel unwelcome enough.. one has said he will post on his facebook wall and make it clear that the occupy birmingham does not represent the 99% but is the anarchist and communist people.. somehow imagining that his racist bullshit represents more people than anarchism and communism.. funny in a way, especially since I'd say many people invovled are into fotl stuff and unlikely to be anarchists or communists.

e2a: Luther one of the admins deleted the post where someone had posted up a link to the protocols, along with a rant about the zionist banking system.. this post was after whatever went on that Aidan got kicked out over, so you will have missed at least one of the main rows.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Whatever happened on the OccupyBrum wall has created divisions with new walls popping up.
> Try this one as well https://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Birmingham/246106318768785?sk=wall
> or this one: https://www.facebook.com/groups/218084498258542/


this is turning into the life of fucking brian tbf.

think for yourselves, we will think for ourselves
we're the occupybrumfb not the fboccupybrum division...


----------



## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

quite a few of those existed before.. there were at least 4 occupy birmingham pages setup by different people before the 15th, and there were two groups.
I'm only aware of one group that has been setup following this row


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Well that was an amusing row
> 
> It looks like the two people who put across the zionist bullshit are leaving the group of their own volition rather than being banned.. another group has been setup that won't allow any zionist or anti-zionist posting (which is a bit odd, liberal authoritarianism?).. The person who set it up was clearly against the zionism stuff but didn't want people to row over it.
> 
> ...



The person who set up the other group has accused me of being a troll for saying what I did. It may also be because I was critical of a few of the main ideas on there, like Zeitgeist/Venus Project, FotL etc, although I was trying my best to be diplomatic, I guess he doesn't like awkward questions. Others accused me of being a spook for asking questions and objecting to anti-semitism.

One of their problems is that a lot of them aren't aware of the anti-semitic nature of saying things like "Rothschild Zionists" control the world. They don't understand the history behind it.

Anyway, I may attend the GA tonight, I may not. The farce last night hardly inspired me or made me think anything useful or productive will come out of this.


----------



## rekil (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Others accused me of being a spook for asking questions and objecting to anti-semitism.


They just joined the dots. 'Blagsta' is an anagram of 'Stalag B', a system of camps built by the nazis to house POWs, but who else did they put in camps? - that's right - the Jew.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 19, 2011)

Article on Newsnight yesterday: http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b01690zn/?t=15m07s


----------



## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> The person who set up the other group has accused me of being a troll for saying what I did. It may also be because I was critical of a few of the main ideas on there, like Zeitgeist/Venus Project, FotL etc, although I was trying my best to be diplomatic, I guess he doesn't like awkward questions. Others accused me of being a spook for asking questions and objecting to anti-semitism.
> 
> One of their problems is that a lot of them aren't aware of the anti-semitic nature of saying things like "Rothschild Zionists" control the world. They don't understand the history behind it.
> 
> Anyway, I may attend the GA tonight, I may not. The farce last night hardly inspired me or made me think anything useful or productive will come out of this.



I wish I'd seen the posts that led to your ejection.. You can't have been any more forthright than me.. I mean the first thing I said to the person who posted the protocols was "fuck off racist" .. I guess maybe some of the other people know me cos I've spent a day at the camp and been around on the wall a bit more than you.

I hope you come to the GA today and see what is said, I'm still willing to give this more time to become clear whether it's fruitloop bullshit or not, but you know I'll be walking away from it too if it's clear it's going to be dominated by fotl/ct/zeitgeist types.. I think the space is still there to be challenged and won.

Does someone have a good link to the history of anti-semitism connected with the protocols and jewish banking conspiracy crap?


----------



## Belushi (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> The person who set up the other group has accused me of being a troll for saying what I did. It may also be because I was critical of a few of the main ideas on there, like Zeitgeist/Venus Project, FotL etc, although I was trying my best to be diplomatic, I guess he doesn't like awkward questions. Others accused me of being a spook for asking questions and objecting to anti-semitism.
> 
> One of their problems is that a lot of them aren't aware of the anti-semitic nature of saying things like "Rothschild Zionists" control the world. They don't understand the history behind it.
> 
> Anyway, I may attend the GA tonight, I may not. The farce last night hardly inspired me or made me think anything useful or productive will come out of this.



They've moved on to Masonic conspiracies now 

But yes, the problem is that a lot of them are new to protest and dont understand why this bollocks has to be challenged whenever it rears its head.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Not what I meant. I meant you should go down and ask people if THEY want skunkweedskunk.



I am not a drug dealer either.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

treelover said:


> @rutita,
> 
> ask them are they going to support the Sparks, a key moment imo...



Yes, this was raised at the GA last night. They are in talks with people from different sites around London. There was a consensus that this is the kind of thing they should be supporting and people seemed willing to get involved.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I am not a drug dealer either.



No? Shame, you could've made some fast cash.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

There's somebody at the Birmingham occupation who sports a "legalise cannabis alliance" badge.. I've not broached the subject with him cos there's been some recent crapness with the LCA that I don't want to get involved with.. but I suspect he would have some reasonable weed if you want to make the trip up here like..


----------



## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> There's somebody at the Birmingham occupation who sports a "legalise cannabis alliance" badge.. I've not broached the subject with him cos there's been some recent crapness with the LCA that I don't want to get involved with.. but I suspect he would have some reasonable weed if you want to make the trip up here like..



You're all missing the point.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You're all missing the point.



Yes, you're right I have, sorry.. I'm not sure whether the presence of someone involved with the LCA bodes well or badly for your cash dreams in Birmingham.. I mean, clearly there'll be a market here, but he's probably got quite a decent line on weed already..


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You're all missing the point.


Your habit doesn't interest me. I prefer it if it was decriminalised at the very least so people who need help don't have to say 'Hello, I'm a criminal' before they get help with their addiction, etc. A more liberal attitude reduced harm & numbers using in Nederlands. A change in the way heroin addiction is treated could happen too - using real heroin at 6p per day instead of the £20 per day when treated with methodone + higher success rate of weaning off.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 19, 2011)

So... did the SPARKS protest get some support from OccupyLSX?


----------



## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

My work here is done.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 19, 2011)

There is now an online manifesto suggestion/ voting platform: http://www.google.com/moderator/#16/e=f76a0


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> My work here is done.


Note the lack of meaningful political activism in the 90s with the advent of rave culture & individualism-as-a-way-of-life.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> A doped up populace is less likely to complain. Note the lack of meaningful political activism in the 90s with the advent of rave culture.



Errr, that was when environmentalism took off again, so no. Besides, rave culture was political, it just didn't fit into the standard institutional frameworks that activists and politics like to work with/believe in.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Environmentalism never disappeared off the agenda.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Environmentalism never disappeared off the agenda.



Yes it did, between the mid-70s and the late 80s it was in the doldrums. Wasn't til Chernobyl, acid rain and the ozone hole that it took off again in terms of large numbers of citizens getting engaged etc.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Yes it did, between the mid-70s and the late 80s it was in the doldrums. Wasn't til Chernobyl, acid rain and the ozone hole that it took off again in terms of large numbers of citizens getting engaged etc.


This is your academic version of the world, one you haven't lived yourself.


----------



## treelover (Oct 19, 2011)

has the OLSX facebook page been compromised, i got one of those 'your pc needs re-imaging' when I opened it up.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> This is your academic version of the world, one you haven't lived yourself.



The fuck are you on about? I was involved in the environmental movement in the early 90s, I know that it was pretty fucking marginal before that.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Of course YOU know, because you weren't there, and it wasn't until YOU got involved that other people really started to notice.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

treelover said:


> has the OLSX facebook page been compromised, i got one of those 'your pc needs re-imaging' when I opened it up.


Not that I can see. I use a secure connection (https). Do you?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Michael Moore on Newsnight last night: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9619110.stm



> The 'Occupy' movement, which began in Wall Street a month ago, has "touched a nerve" and is "spreading across America", film-maker and author Michael Moore has told the BBC's Newsnight programme.
> 
> 
> "People are not going to take it any more," he told Jeremy Paxman, as the protests against banks and financial institutions have spread to capitals including Rome and London.



Some stats: 50 million people in US without any access to healthcare; 46.2 million living in poverty - 13-18 million kids going to bed every night malnourished.


----------



## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Of course YOU know, because you weren't there, and it wasn't until YOU got involved that other people really started to notice.



I know because I WASN'T there? Riiiiiight.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

What the OccupyWallStreet movement is about + data behind the movement: http://imgur.com/a/U4FR4

This series of graphs is a MUST to view


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I hope you come to the GA today and see what is said, I'm still willing to give this more time to become clear whether it's fruitloop bullshit or not, but you know I'll be walking away from it too if it's clear it's going to be dominated by fotl/ct/zeitgeist types.. I think the space is still there to be challenged and won.



Hmmmm...judging by the dominant ideas on the Facebook group I really don't know if I can find much common ground with them to make it worthwhile. Do you know if any other wobs are going? If there was enough sound people going I would go.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 19, 2011)

Just go, for fucks sake.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Hmmmm...judging by the dominant ideas on the Facebook group I really don't know if I can find much common ground with them to make it worthwhile. Do you know if any other wobs are going? If there was enough sound people going I would go.



  I don't know about wobs, but I know that quite a few of the uni students that I've been doing ukuncut and other things with are coming down.  I'll be there and I'm sure Kerry will be, again she's not a wob but she is a decent anarchist from what I can tell.
I wouldn't be surprised if one or two other wobs turned up, either today or saturday.


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## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

@kizmet I can't make common cause with people who promote fascist ideas. Maybe you can, it wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I don't know about wobs, but I know that quite a few of the uni students that I've been doing ukuncut and other things with are coming down.  I'll be there and I'm sure Kerry will be, again she's not a wob but she is a decent anarchist from what I can tell.
> I wouldn't be surprised if one or two other wobs turned up, either today or saturday.


That arsehole who posted the protocols is back in the Facebook group.  Lots more stuff on there about "roths" and Zionists, even freemasons ffs.

I can't find any common cause with that. Anyone promoting the protocols should be persona non grata.


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## Kizmet (Oct 19, 2011)

No one's asking you to make common cause. Just go and make your own case and stop bleating for excuses not to.


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## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

fucksake I didn't see him get added back in, just had to scroll so far down.
I saw the person posting about NWO/masons but getting told it wasn't part of this by some and that the occupy movement is not the truther movement, and even the sympathetic ones saying people aren't ready for this you'll just chase them off.  Perhaps I've got an opposite confirmation bias going on.. 

Not sure what to do now, I can't see him posting directly about zionism again though he does say he's not going to mention it for fear of being called racist... there was a post he made a while back that I didn't see on something that got bumped but I didn't respond to it cos I thought he'd fucked off having been made unwelcome.  I don't think there is much point responding on the facebook group about it.

I think what I'm going to to is go to the GA and raise it there, make it quite clear that I cannot be part of a group that will allow racist conspiracy theories as part of the group and see how the discussion goes.  If there is not a concensus to ban people who have promoted the protocols etc. then I will no longer be part of the thing in any form.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2011)

get to it then


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## dennisr (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I can't find any common cause with that. Anyone promoting the protocols should be persona non grata.



Which is why you should go along fella - the majority of other folk there will also appreciate what you are warning  about because you are there in real life


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

I urge everyone to at least go down to their local occupy group and join in with the GA at least once. The _movement_ will only be as diverse as the people who get involved/make their voices heard.

I was impressed with the way the LSX is trying to organise themselves and be as inclusive as possible. I sat in on the process group meeting before the GA last night and they really are trying to make this thing work.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> @kizmet I can't make common cause with people who promote fascist ideas. Maybe you can, it wouldn't surprise me.


I think you got banned from the facebook group because your language/grammar implied that everyone there supported racist/conspiraloon/fascist/fotl ideas, and most (who obv. didn't) took offence at that.

Perhaps you could adjust your approach, because you're doing exactly that here - smearing all involved as promoting fascist ideas when the reality was it was a tiny number.

You'll probably need to take a more educative line.


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## Kizmet (Oct 19, 2011)

Now that would be a surprise.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I don't know about wobs, but I know that quite a few of the uni students that I've been doing ukuncut and other things with are coming down. I'll be there and I'm sure Kerry will be, again she's not a wob but she is a decent anarchist from what I can tell.
> I wouldn't be surprised if one or two other wobs turned up, either today or saturday.


SPLC produced a 'Top Ten Patriot Conspiracy Theories' brief: http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform.../browse-all-issues/2010/fall/patriot-paranoia
Perhaps that could be printed off and taken down with you. SPLC have a very good reputation. It goes into the Chemtrail thing, and briefly touches on the NWO conspiracy theory.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

dennisr said:


> Which is why you should go along fella - the majority of other folk there will also appreciate what you are warning about because you are there in real life


The majority of folk there won't want the movement undermined by crackpot conspiracy theories which in the US right now, are being used by 'the 1%' undermine and smear the Occupy Movement.


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## dylans (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I think you got banned from the facebook group because your language/grammar implied that everyone there supported racist/conspiraloon/fascist/fotl ideas, and most (who obv. didn't) took offence at that.
> 
> Perhaps you could adjust your approach, because you're doing exactly that here - smearing all involved as promoting fascist ideas when the reality was it was a tiny number.
> 
> You'll probably need to take a more educative line.


I disagree with you here. I briefly joined that group and immediately announced I was leaving after the protocols of zion thing. I did that mainly because I could see that the arguments were being put and I figured that acting like the shocked newby who was put off was the best way to demonstrate the dangers of what was being pointed out rather than another new face just joining the argument.

I lurked a bit after that and I saw the exchange between who I am guessing was blagsta and bigtom and some of the others and I thought they did their best to be reasonable in the face of a pretty blind attitudes on there. In particular the line seemed to be that all discussion or attempts to raise the question of racism was itself divisive and therefore that those raising these issues were the cause of the conflict. "Don't even talk about it, live and let live, lets all get along, I don't care about this issue etc seemed to be the general view of a lot of people there.
I don't think the main problem is that reactionary attitudes are by any means the majority view and I agree it is a handful, rather the problem is that the majority view seems to be that issues such as anti semitism etc are not important or that they are less important than the magical "unity at any price" mantra. And precisely because it doesn't view anti racism as an important first principle they are opening themselves up for the racists and the lunatics to get a hold for their views. This is related to the kind of "we are not political" or we are "above left and right" kind of argument that seems common with these groups.

Blagsta (again i am guessing it was him) had to put up with a lot of abuse including being blamed for causing all the conflict, being called a troll, several mysterious bannings, being told he was not allowed to join the new group and so on. Even accused of being a CIA plant at one point.

In retrospect perhaps I should have stuck around and had the argument but as I said I figured a demonstration of just how they were putting people off was the best thing to do. I'm not very impressed with that group to say the least. Its tiny, very marginal, has some very odd people in it and doesn't look like it is goinng anywhere. That said, I will try and go along on saturday ( I have real problems getting out because of child minding difficulties but will bring my kid) and give it another try, I guess I owe it that


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## frogwoman (Oct 19, 2011)

well said dylans.


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## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> I think you got banned from the facebook group because your language/grammar implied that everyone there supported racist/conspiraloon/fascist/fotl ideas, and most (who obv. didn't) took offence at that.
> 
> Perhaps you could adjust your approach, because you're doing exactly that here - smearing all involved as promoting fascist ideas when the reality was it was a tiny number.
> 
> You'll probably need to take a more educative line.



No, that's not what happened. Initially I was very diplomatic and ignored the conspiracy theory stuff. It was only when someone mentioned the "Rothschild Zionists", I responded with "stop the anti-sem.itism please". I then went on to explain that it was a rehash of the old ZOG trope, I then got banned. I did not "smear" anyone and I am not doing so here. It does worry me that the dominant ideas expressed are about the Rothschilds and Zionists as this is exactly the kind of crap that fascists come out with. The dominant people on that Facebook group are truthers, this is not a smear, so please refrain from smearing *me* with your accusation.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

I take it people are discussing the Occupy Brum group here?

My concern is that the issues with that group could be confused with what's going on in London.

That said, I can see why people are worried about what seem to be the _dominant_ ideas circulating in the Brum group.

I still think there is value in going down in person though, the impression I had of the London group was greatly enriched by getting involved in the GA. I am not sure the 'internet' interactions are doing the London camp justice.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Here's another excellent article on far-right conspiracy theorists that could be useful to print off before you head down there ...




			
				Who is Alex Jones? said:
			
		

> His YouTube channel has over 30 million views and over 200,000 subscribers. He's had cameo appearances in two Hollywood films. Yet he's hardly a household name. Nonetheless, over the last fifteen years, Austin, Texas-based radio talk-show host Alex Jones has made a career pumping out bigotry and conspiracies for profit.
> Jones has also defended the same Tea Party movement whose leaders are attacking the Occupy movement today. He has indulged in vicious racist anti-immigrant rhetoric, promoted anti-Semitic con artists, defended Holocaust deniers, and attacked civil rights leaders. He is an equal opportunity bigot.


http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/race-racism-and-white-nationalism/item/376-who-is-alex-jones


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> No, that's not what happened. Initially I was very diplomatic and ignored the conspiracy theory stuff. It was only when someone mentioned the "Rothschild Zionists", I responded with "stop the anti-sem.itism please". I then went on to explain that it was a rehash of the old ZOG trope, I then got banned. I did not "smear" anyone and I am not doing so here. It does worry me that the dominant ideas expressed are about the Rothschilds and Zionists as this is exactly the kind of crap that fascists come out with. The dominant people on that Facebook group are truthers, this is not a smear, so please refrain from smearing *me* with your accusation.


They're not the dominant ideas though. You're doing it again.
Again - plenty of resources out there to post up - from places that are trustworthy.


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## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> They're not the dominant ideas though. You're doing it again.
> Again - plenty of resources out there to post up - from places that are trustworthy.




They don't know what they stand for so like dylans says, they have this wooly inclusivty that anything goes and they don't see why I made a fuss. That is a problem.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

So did anyone take a screenie of the now disappeared Protocols discussion?


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> They don't know what they stand for so like dylans says, they have this wooly inclusivty that anything goes and they don't see why I made a fuss. That is a problem.


Just give them the tools to enable them to make the discrimination. That's what I'm doing there. That's what I will continue to do.
Just now (ish) someone posted up the chainmail letter from the late 90s about the criminality of US congress that had been adapted for the UK (wrongly, I might add). I posted up the snopes explanation http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/congress.asp , and they saw then that the data was unreliable and fuzzy, and took down their original post- very reasonable, no problem. What I did not do was insult that person for believing it - it's quite believable and to some extent it's true, but it's also the type of thing that can be used to bring down the movement, so quite rightly it was necessary to counter that.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

Perhaps OccupyBrum and it's facebook page needs a thread of it's own?


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## ddraig (Oct 19, 2011)

is the Zeitgeist 'movement' all conspiraloon?
had a link sent to me from someone in Cardiff who attended at St Pauls but it is on the zeitgeist site! have asked them if they are a conspiraloon
thanks


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## Brainaddict (Oct 19, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Perhaps OccupyBrum and it's facebook page needs a thread of it's own?


Sadly this is an issue with all the occupations including the London one. So I'm interested. But if there are loads of people here involved in that occupation then maybe it deserves its own thread.


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## ddraig (Oct 19, 2011)

ddraig said:


> is the Zeitgeist 'movement' all conspiraloon?
> had a link sent to me from someone in Cardiff who attended at St Pauls but it is on the zeitgeist site! have asked them if they are a conspiraloon
> thanks


well i asked them and they said "I wrote a funny answer but I guess I'd better be straight, the answer to your question is no. It's an understanding of reality."


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

ddraig said:


> is the Zeitgeist 'movement' all conspiraloon?
> had a link sent to me from someone in Cardiff who attended at St Pauls but it is on the zeitgeist site! have asked them if they are a conspiraloon
> thanks


Yeah, pretty much afaik.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

*‎*



> **BREAKING NEWS***
> 
> http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/ are planning a massive social media push to support occupy Manchester starting at 16:00 we will be flooding message boards, forums, blogs, whatever with messages to join the cause. Please do your bit. Anonymous had a push recently and got 4000 messages out in 1 hour, thats the kind of response we need.
> 
> OccupyMCR needs our support. They are diminished in number, plagued by druggies and alcoHOLICSs they have suspected attacks by EDL, they have eviction notice from council, they are cold, de-motivated, they need help!!


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

dylans said:


> I lurked a bit after that and I saw the exchange between who I am guessing was blagsta and bigtom and some of the others and I thought they did their best to be reasonable in the face of a pretty blind attitudes on there. In particular the line seemed to be that all discussion or attempts to raise the question of racism was itself divisive and therefore that those raising these issues were the cause of the conflict. "Don't even talk about it, live and let live, lets all get along, I don't care about this issue etc seemed to be the general view of a lot of people there.
> 
> I don't think the main problem is that reactionary attitudes are by any means the majority view and I agree it is a handful, rather the problem is that the majority view seems to be that issues such as anti semitism etc are not important or that they are less important than the magical "unity at any price" mantra. And precisely because it doesn't view anti racism as an important first principle they are opening themselves up for the racists and the lunatics to get a hold for their views. This is related to the kind of "we are not political" or we are "above left and right" kind of argument that seems common with these groups.
> 
> ...


I agree with your observations, after posting a news item linking to OWS and how rightwing conspiracy-monger Alex Jones came out against the movement. Someone who obv. supported those kind of conspiracies (Ty) then posted, and eventually the entire (useful) conversation was deleted and I was then accused of causing conflict, accused of arguing, and at least one person would like to see me banned. They want any discussion which includes racism and conspiracies to be held in private multi-user chat, so that it doesn't appear on the group page. I have no idea why, and I have no idea why they don't want to discuss it openly. Not wanting to discuss things openly is completely bizarre.


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## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2011)

Quick report on the occupy people getting down to blackfriars today (laughable line in the first para of course).


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Quick report on the occupy people getting down to blackfriars today (laughable line in the first para of course).



Glad they made it!


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## treelover (Oct 19, 2011)

I in 4, good show, i think the CT/protocols thing, etc may be an internet thing and not the people on the site..

no media coverage though...


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## Belushi (Oct 19, 2011)

I've given up on the occupybrum page, hope it isn't indicative of what's going on in the movement overall.


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## London Eye (Oct 19, 2011)

I think it's inevitable that the Zeitgeist films will be branded conspiracy theorising. Jaques Fresco's ideas are certainly eccentric, but I don't think you have to take on board the ideas of either Fresco or his Venus Project of fully automated and technologically ordered cities to understand the structural problems that the third Zeigeist film enunciates. You don't even have to take the first two films seriously in order to understand the structural failings of debt-created banking that is brilliantly explained in the first part of Zeitgeist: Moving Forward.

People have become so indoctrinated to the buzzword conspiracy or "conspiraloon", that they fear even watching such a film in case someone brands them a "conspiraloon" too, and then their reputation as a level-headed, rational and serious person is undermined. We should all be able to watch such films that others are saying is of interest, and then making our own informed and nuanced decision, saying, yes, that makes sense, and, no, that doesn't make sense.

So far, the most level-headed explanations of the banking system's structural failures are the short videos on Positive Money UK which explain the problems without resorting to uptopian solutions, as in the Zeitgeist films. But that's just my opinion. Others should be free to form their own opinions.


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## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2011)

They are and anyone sensible seems to reject them. And no, you can't really just separate parts off - and certainly not when there's non-loon based explanations out there. The thing is a whole, the same motivations and base assumptions underly the entirety of the work. If you're just looking at banking then there is no need whatsoever to look at zetgeist full stop.


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## rekil (Oct 19, 2011)

A quick search reveals more of the same. I think butchers posted an appropriate response to this guffster a couple of years ago.


butchersapron said:


> wtf is wrong with you?


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)




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## smokedout (Oct 19, 2011)

from memory i watched the first zeitgeist film i think

first bit was about religion, seemed to be saying that all the bad religion does comes from an older religion of sun worshipping types

second bit was evil bankers secretly control the world

third bit was evil bankers were involved in 911

pretty fucking naked stuff from what i recall


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)




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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)




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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/dsc0147id.jpg/]
	


[/URL]


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 19, 2011)

smokedout said:


> from memory i watched the first zeitgeist film i think
> 
> first bit was about religion, seemed to be saying that all the bad religion does comes from an older religion of sun worshipping types
> 
> ...


That sounds much like how I remember it. Of course, there seem to be dozens of the fucking things, so whenever you say "well this bit is obvious bollocks for a start" the response is always "ahhh but that's explained in Episode VIII Revenge Of The Zeitgeist".


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## Gramsci (Oct 19, 2011)

Today Wednesday 19th October.

There is a two day General Strike in Greece


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Belushi said:


> I've given up on the occupybrum page, hope it isn't indicative of what's going on in the movement overall.


You've given up on the conspiraloon-run occupybrum page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBrum/
AFAIK this is the real Occupy Birmingham UK page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Birmingham-UK/154845231274653


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## OneStrike (Oct 19, 2011)

I haven't been since Saturday night/Sunday morning, but London seems to be getting a bit split according to my timeline.  I hope it doesn't crumble to nothing, but factions want different types of change, end of capitalism/nicer capitalism/sick of fucking bongo's e.t.c.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> I haven't been since Saturday night/Sunday morning, but London seems to be getting a bit split according to my timeline. I hope it doesn't crumble to nothing, but factions want different types of change, end of capitalism/nicer capitalism/sick of fucking bongo's e.t.c.



So you were there on Saturday and that was your observation of then? I'll be interested to hear what you think when and if you go back...meaning is that an issue now, how have they moved on since Saturday etc.


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## Belushi (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> You've given up on the conspiraloon-run occupybrum page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/OccupyBrum/
> AFAIK this is the real Occupy Birmingham UK page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Occupy-Birmingham-UK/154845231274653



Nope; I've given up on the second page you link to as well.


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## TruXta (Oct 19, 2011)

Don't know if this is the right thread, but I just had a look at (one of?) the Occupy London FB pages, and saw this:



> * The Occupy Movement has announced July 4th, 2012 as the date of it's first national convention. It's to be held in Philadelphia Pennsylvania. At which time the current list of proposed demands will be ratified as the platform of the movement. Delegates from each congressional district will be elected at the time, ...and a resolution will be passed stati...ng that if congress, the President and the Supreme fail to act of the resolved motions coming out of the planned convention, the occupy movement will run a new third party candidate in each and every congressional district in this country. *



Is this likely, or is it a load of codswallop? I'm leaning towards the latter.


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## Luther Blissett (Oct 19, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Nope; I've given up on the second page you link to.


The second page? Why not the first page? And why the second page?


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## Belushi (Oct 19, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> The second page? Why not the first page? And why the second page?



I've given up on them both, too many right wing conspiracy nuts.


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## Belushi (Oct 19, 2011)

Okay, I've signed back up to the real occupy birmingham page, this is no time to be giving up


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## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

I went to the general assembly tonight, There was about 30 or 40 people, mostly young, but some older people, some of the ones staying at the camp I got the impression were maybe street homeless people. Overall, it was much better than I feared it might be. The Facebook row was discussed, I spoke up against anti-semitic conspiracy theories, pointed out their origins in far right groups and stated that they should not be tolerated. There was some agreement, not loads, but interestingly no opposition. No one spoke up for the 9/11 "truth" movement or any of that crap. It was generally agreed that the group should be anti-racist, anti-sexist etc.

There was lots of discussion about camp practicalities that I did not involve myself in as I am very unlikely to be involved with that aspect of things. Most of the people there seemed new to politics and activism and maybe a bit naive, believing the police will protect them if there is any trouble. Again I did not involve myself in this discussion as I figured out that people have to learn through experience.

The only small bit of conspiraloonery that I heard was reference to fractional reserve banking being the main problem, which IME goes hand in hand with some of the more nutty stuff. but I did not speak up here either as explaining Marx and circulation of capital etc would have been too much through a megaphone!

I put forth the idea that the N30 public sector strikes should be supported as well as the N9 education demos, to some agreement.

Most of the actual people staying at the camp just wanted to concentrate on that and did not want to discuss any actual politics beyond "we're pissed off", which is fine as far as it goes at the moment, but will become problematic I think later on if the camp manages to sustain itself and grow. I did state that without having some idea of what they stood for, what they supported, it may be hard to garner support and I suggested sticking to bread & butter issues, such as taking an anti-public sector cuts position, supporting strikes, defending the NHS etc, to have some identity of what they're about, this didn't get a huge agreement but not a huge disagreeement either.

Basically, it has potential to politicise people and i think should be supported, but made clear that conspiracy crap will not be tolerated.


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## Blagsta (Oct 19, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-15375486


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## OneStrike (Oct 19, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> So you were there on Saturday and that was your observation of then? I'll be interested to hear what you think when and if you go back...meaning is that an issue now, how have they moved on since Saturday etc.


nah, then it was a greater mass and the main concern was the rozzers.  I'm only posting about what i have been told today, more power to them generally.  I'll give a personal post when i get the chance.


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## BigTom (Oct 19, 2011)

Basically, what Blagsta said.
A list of aims for a "what we are for" statement is to be drawn up and each point will be discussed and voted on at Saturdays General assembly..


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## treelover (Oct 20, 2011)

40 people outdoors on a freezing night is quite good..


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## redsquirrel (Oct 20, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I went to the general assembly tonight, <snip>.


Cheers for the report Blagsta.

and this (from the link BA posted) is good news


> Good news is that the sparks plan to join the student demonstration to the City on 9 November. Workers, students, and activists need to link up in a single, united, national movement against the cuts. That is the way to overcome the fragmentation and division fostered by the bosses and the Con-Dem government.


and is the type of thing that will actually make occupy relevant.


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## treelover (Oct 20, 2011)

'Have just had a long conversation with alternative rocker and political activist Julian Cope (he of the poll tax riots), about the Occupy movement and how the mainstream press isn't giving it nearly enough attention. He was genuinely interested and spoke out on stage tonight calling for people to get together and occupy, and said he's going to try and get down to Occupy LSX when he's in London on ...his tour. I know having rock star endorsement isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I saw an opportunity there to get the message across via yet another medium and took it. If anything it's inspired another person to get out there and hopefully it might be the final nudge needed for people at his gigs to join in.'

Julian's coming!


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## dennisr (Oct 20, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Quick report on the occupy people getting down to blackfriars today (laughable line in the first para of course).



The turnout wasn't too bad at all and the links being made between the various disputes movements are great to see. That certainly was a laughable line though - those who stayed out did so because they wanted to. The ones who are not yet convinced, confident and/or aware walked through - with no fear of a few linked-arm students (most of those going in had already passed before the 'light cavalry' arrived anyway). Despite Unite leaderships role - the site wide ballot is significant - the rank and file can use that as an opportunity.


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## redsquirrel (Oct 20, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Have just had a long conversation with alternative rocker and political activist Julian Cope (he of the poll tax riots), about the Occupy movement and how the mainstream press isn't giving it nearly enough attention. He was genuinely interested and spoke out on stage tonight calling for people to get together and occupy, and said he's going to try and get down to Occupy LSX when he's in London on ...his tour. I know having rock star endorsement isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I saw an opportunity there to get the message across via yet another medium and took it. If anything it's inspired another person to get out there and hopefully it might be the final nudge needed for people at his gigs to join in.'
> 
> Julian's coming!


Could you post where you got this from, cheers.
Belboid will be pleased anyway.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 20, 2011)

Cathedral are now suggesting that the camp is detrimental to 'Cathedral life'.  I wonder if the clergyman who was in favour of the camp has now been nobbled by others in the church council or whatever.


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## ddraig (Oct 20, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Cathedral are now suggesting that the camp is detrimental to 'Cathedral life'.  I wonder if the clergyman who was in favour of the camp has now been nobbled by others in the church council or whatever.


yup most probably, same old shit. taken aside and had words with. can't be having people in the establishment agreeing with and encouraging riffraff/lower classes can we!


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## ddraig (Oct 20, 2011)

quote and link- BIG STORY NOW, EVEN THE NAZIS couldn't get rid of this ICONIC building of ENGLAND!!! we're not going to let some HIPPIES close it



> A rise in their numbers was now posing "a risk to the life of the cathedral", the statement said.
> On Monday the cathedral authorities said they were trying to "provide worship and welcome to all" in spite of the protest camp in the churchyard.
> But in a new statement on Wednesday, the cathedral said the increase in numbers at the site now meant it was forced to "review the extent to which it can remain open for the many thousands coming this week as worshippers, visitors and in school parties".
> The consequences of closing St Paul's "cannot be taken lightly", the statement said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15380205


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## treelover (Oct 20, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> Could you post where you got this from, cheers.
> Belboid will be pleased anyway.



on the FB page...


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## treelover (Oct 20, 2011)




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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 21, 2011)

so the cathedral is now closed - apparently they "have no choice". What a load of bollocks. The tents don't even block the entrance!  Apparently the protest is threatening the health and safety of visitors.

Great publicity for the occupation though...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15406865


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 21, 2011)

St Paul's have asked them to leave due to 'health and safety' concerns. I suspect this is the result of someone winning an internal squabble within whatever governing body looks after the cathedral.

Going to be interesting to see what happens next. I rather fear this will expose some of the contradictions within the occupation though.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 21, 2011)

the cathedral are "implementing emergency measures" !!

God currently preparing a biblical snowstorm or something....


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 21, 2011)

Watch live as they decide what to do: http://occupylsx.org/?page_id=11


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 21, 2011)

maybe St Pauls should do the Christian thing and invite the protestors inside into the warmth for a cuppa and a hob nob?


----------



## Bristly Pioneer (Oct 21, 2011)

'forced' to close my arse.

I've never seen such blatant attempt to guilt trip via the media.

On 12/11/11 is the Lord Mayor's show where the new lord mayor of the city (currently a property developer) will be blessed on the steps of St Pauls, I had a feeling the protest would be removed long before that.  We can see the wheels turning now.  This is the Lord Mayor of the Corporation Of London, the only council where businesses such as banks get four times as many votes on who gets to be mayor than the people who live there.

As has been said, if the church really cared, they would open their doors to the protesters and give them food and shelter.  Religion, State and Business are the three big things we need to move beyond.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 21, 2011)

occupiers start quoting bible back at St Paul's 

*sunny_hundal* sunny hundal 

 _by greengranma_ 

Protesters at #*occupylsx* start to quote Bible back at St Paul'stwitpic.com/73mt3f & pic.twitter.com/QFhHGuky


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 21, 2011)

health and safety my hairy ringpiece


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 21, 2011)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> 'forced' to close my arse.
> 
> I've never seen such blatant attempt to guilt trip via the media.
> 
> ...



Have you read Treasure Islands by Nick Shaxton bristly?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 21, 2011)

any member of the 'establishment' for want of a better word who sides with or makes approving noises of something the 'anti-establishment' does or stands for tends to get taken aside by their 'superiors' or some more serious part of the establishment and had words with about their place and what side they are on.

self preservation and containment init


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 21, 2011)

It's just popeaganda 

I'm thinking of heading down there for a week seen as I'm on my arse with fuck all to do. Is there room for another 1 man tent?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 21, 2011)

Appeal for Legal Observers from London Green & Black Cross:

We're expecting the police to step up their presence around the Occupy 
London site this weekend.

Last Saturday we saw some brutal policing from the TSG on the steps of 
the Cathedral, so it would be great to have a few more legal observers 
on hand should any problems arise.

Just turn up on site at St Paul's over the weekend, bring a tent if you 
like. You'll find us in the legal tent!


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 21, 2011)

Bristly Pioneer said:


> 'forced' to close my arse.
> 
> I've never seen such blatant attempt to guilt trip via the media.
> 
> ...



Sorry to sound like a stuck record... but does anyone think the occupy lsx demo could have been, or still could be co-opted into a demo against the city of london corporation?

if so, the guildhall square would be a good area to occupy. it is an enclosed space though and could just end up with occupiers in the middle and regular traffic to the area just going around the square, giving the action no impact.






it is also a little bit smaller than the area currently occupied and away from the lsx and enclosed so no room to expand, no other areas nearby to use either.

http://colcprotest.wordpress.com/



> *WHAT IS THE CITY OF LONDON CORPORATION?*
> http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/LGNL_Services/Council_and_democracy/Council_departments/whatis.htm
> 
> The City of London provides local government services for the financial and commercial heart of Britain, the ‘Square Mile’. It is committed to supporting and promoting ‘The City’ as the world leader in international finance and business services through the policies it pursues and the high standard of services it provides.
> ...



From an email from Maurice Glasman:


> Dear William,
> 
> thanks for getting in touch.  In my view we are at least three years away
> from an effective action that could bring some pressure to bear on the
> ...



My favourite bit of the email:


> This is very serious political work and they are very
> powerful.  That guides my thought on the matter,
> 
> with best wishes,
> ...


bring it on imo


----------



## ddraig (Oct 21, 2011)

the saviour!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> It's just popeaganda
> 
> I'm thinking of heading down there for a week seen as I'm on my arse with fuck all to do. Is there room for another 1 man tent?



More than enough room for one or a few hundred more


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 21, 2011)

ddraig said:


> the saviour!


ykts


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 21, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Sorry to sound like a stuck record... but does anyone think the occupy lsx demo could have been, or still could be co-opted into a demo against the city of london corporation?
> 
> if so, the guildhall square would be a good area to occupy. it is an enclosed space though and could just end up with occupiers in the middle and regular traffic to the area just going around the square, giving the action no impact.
> 
> ...



We were talking about this last night.. a decent list of alternative locations nearby that can be expanded into or relocated to at short notice so that, should the pressure come to evict there is some element of tactics stolen from the rioters that will ensure momentum isn't lost.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 21, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> More than enough room for one or a few hundred more


Are you on site Rutita? I'm pretty interested actually. Especially since Pingu put the kybosh on Liverpool


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2011)

Not on site no...not too far from it though and have been down there a couple of times. Will be back there tomorrow afternoon/evening too.

If you are interested, you have nothing to lose. Many people are staying on site, others are sleeping at home in London but pretty much there everyday, all day...


----------



## gunneradt (Oct 21, 2011)

Keep it up till next Summer - I promise you'll get swept away like garbage when the Olympics starts - just like in Australia


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 21, 2011)

quite a way before it starts. is it august? the clearup will begin on april 30th 

missed the opportunity this summer imo. camping in winter, what a load of shit =(


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 21, 2011)

Billy Bragg to join protest in Dublin Saturday and perform secret gig


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 21, 2011)

I don't mind camping in winter. I'm kitted up much better for winter than summer really. Fuck it I'm going for a week, maybe more who knows.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 21, 2011)

when will you be there? and where are you from?
i'll be there monday for a week i think. would be nice to meet some erbs =)


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 21, 2011)

[#OccupyRadio] 01:00AM BST 20:00PM EDT BBC Radio 5 live At St Paul's Cathedral, London with #OccupyLSX Protesters http://bbc.in/pxz97O #OWS


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 21, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> when will you be there? and where are you from?
> i'll be there monday for a week i think. would be nice to meet some erbs =)


Monday from the north west mate.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 21, 2011)

If you're part of Occupy protests, @*guardian* would like you to join the #*whyoccupy* video debate http://gu.com/p/32zdf/tw


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 22, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Billy Bragg to join protest in Dublin Saturday and perform secret gig


Not very secret surely.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)




----------



## killer b (Oct 22, 2011)

does it get funny past 42 seconds?


----------



## magneze (Oct 22, 2011)

I had an idea. If they do get moved, then for occupying the next place, start the occupation by all wearing suits. Probably would have got into Paternoster Square if everyone was wearing a suit and did it on a Monday morning.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 22, 2011)

magneze said:


> I had an idea. If they do get moved, then for occupying the next place, start the occupation by all wearing suits. Probably would have got into Paternoster Square if everyone was wearing a suit and did it on a Monday morning.


Suited and booted is a good idea.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 22, 2011)

is it ok for me to post my banner and slogan ideas?

i have an idea of the occupations being transformed into open air art exhibitions of revolutionary and politcal work like those being shared on facebook and others sites - some good ones on truthaholics and the real art of protest.

it could become a tourist attraction of a kind.

we live in a world saturated with advertising and marketing and it will make a difference to present the occupations more attractively imo.

sometimes you have to play their game to beat them.


----------



## rekil (Oct 22, 2011)

killer b said:


> does it get funny past 42 seconds?


He's the next Iain Lee. Does that help?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 22, 2011)

with sites like vistaprint, it can be affordable to make durable computer designed banners, especially with donations coming in from the general public


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 22, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> is it ok for me to post my banner and slogan ideas?
> 
> i have an idea of the occupations being transformed into open air art exhibitions of revolutionary and politcal work like those being shared on facebook and others sites - some good ones on truthaholics and the real art of protest.
> 
> ...



It's a good idea, there are some beautiful and pertinent banners up already.

The problem is that it's not a legitimate space and so it'd be a brave artist who put valuable work at risk of damage.

Not saying it can't happen... but maybe it would be interesting to see if there is mileage in setting it up in a legitimate gallery?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 22, 2011)

uploaded it here if anyone wants to look and offer feedback http://s605.photobucket.com/albums/tt134/Will2403/Occupy/

i have started making the first one and plan to do 4 red ones and 1 green


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 22, 2011)

Kizmet said:


> It's a good idea, there are some beautiful and pertinent banners up already.
> 
> The problem is that it's not a legitimate space and so it'd be a brave artist who put valuable work at risk of damage.
> 
> Not saying it can't happen... but maybe it would be interesting to see if there is mileage in setting it up in a legitimate gallery?



if we occupy the guildhall square, there is a gallery there and we could ask if we can be affiliated with them and use the inner external walls of the square to display artwork without damaging any of the walls.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Guildhall Buildings, City of London&hl=en&ll=51.515583,-0.092052&spn=0.001262,0.002529&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=19.700796,41.44043&vpsrc=6&hnear=Guildhall Buildings, City of London, EC2V 5, United Kingdom&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=51.515583,-0.092052&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-29845657

they have music and events in the square too:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Gui...092161&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-59077395&z=19


----------



## magneze (Oct 22, 2011)

They'd all look good on advertising hoardings. Wonder how long it would take before they were taken down tho ...


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 22, 2011)

No reason to wait for that, really. I'd imagine there are a number of galleries locally that would be interested in a quick to construct installation that was current and on topic. Even if only for a couple of days in between paying exhibitions...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Oct 22, 2011)

I think it's odd how the media complains about the camp site outside, at first the Pastor/Victor said it was o.k. and welcomes it. Slowly now "they" are saying (I'm assuming from pressure outside) saying the camp site is getting too big. Well in my eyes compare to earlier it has gotten smaller and now the "doors" are shut...  very odd then you think the place have huge doors from both north, south, east and west. Why not open one of those doors? Hmmmm.

Secondly why haven't the shut the Paternoster Square gates? They just have them silly fences in place...


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Oct 22, 2011)

killer b said:


> does it get funny past 42 seconds?



Nope


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 22, 2011)

They've just occupied Finsbury Square with a second camp.

http://twitter.com/#!/OccupyLSX/status/127780047913353216


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 22, 2011)

Live stream of #occupyFS here

It looks warmer there!


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 22, 2011)

Recorded this at one of the workshops yesterday


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 22, 2011)

Brilliant they've done that. Hope the get settled before the police try and move them on.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 22, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> i have started making the first one and plan to do 4 red ones and 1 green










An army terrible with banners is rather less intimidating when they use semicolons.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

Live Stream of Camp 2; being set up as I type :

http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


----------



## Zabo (Oct 22, 2011)

Like him or not, John Humphrys did a very good interview on Saturday's "Today"

"St. Pauls is a church, not a business!" "It's a device to get rid of them." "The fact that they are there is not causing a danger to people."

Listen:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9621000/9621994.stm


----------



## treelover (Oct 22, 2011)

All this shows that if you keep it peaceful and your concerns resonate with much of the public, big things can happen, Bone must be livid....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

Live Stream at St Pauls now...GA about to start.


----------



## treelover (Oct 22, 2011)

A temp worker has just addressed the GA and argued the only people suffering are shop and restaurant workers, got some stick

they do seem a bit up themselves...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

treelover said:


> A temp worker has just addressed the GA and argued the only people suffering are shop and restaurant workers, got some stick
> 
> they do seem a bit up themselves...



Didn't watch the whole thing then?

She wasn't well received at first, however she didn't put herself across very well. She wasnt supporting all the restaurant and shop workers, she accused the camp of making her lose her temp job and was then heckled by a few people to which she replied 'fuck off'.

She missed the point that it is not the OCCUPY camp that is fucking her over, but the fact she is a temp and has no working rights and a non-contract. The facilitator handled it very well actually. He stepped up quickly and 1) reminded everyone (including her) that the GA's are not a place for bad language and shouty arguments, 2) that a discussion group form to discuss her concerns etc. She went off with a group to discuss the issue and that group fed back to the GA with some very good suggestions as to how they can support local workers much better and educate them  into realising that Occupy is very much concerned with them getting shafted too!

I was more interested in the fact she was carrying a really large rucksack on her back and wrapped up pretty snug. I hope she joins the camp.

Nice try treelover.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 22, 2011)

treelover said:


> A temp worker has just addressed the GA and argued the only people suffering are shop and restaurant workers, got some stick
> 
> they do seem a bit up themselves...


who seems a bit up themselves? and from having a poke about today, i'd say any temp worker in a cafe or restaurant in any local facility is probably coining it due to the number of tourists tbf.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 22, 2011)

She was articulate and formidable and had no problem getting herself heard, good on her saying how she felt - despite missing the point.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

maldwyn said:


> She was articulate and formidable and had no problem getting herself heard, good on her saying how she felt - despite missing the point.



I thought so too and believe that with the gumption she showed to address such a large crowd in such an accusatory way, she would be a asset to the occupy camp once she's worked out that they are not her enemy or to blame for shitty workers rights.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

Oh...another highlight for me from the GA today was:

The Bellringer from St Pauls.

Who rightly pointed out that St Pauls has been closed to the public for a very long time now. In fact, the moment they started making everyone pay to enter it went from a public place of worship and sanctury to a business enterprise. Well done that man!


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 22, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> once she's worked out ...



Indeed, if only she was as clever as you.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Indeed, if only she was as clever as you.





She was clever enough actually Maurice....just directing her ire at the wrong people.


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 22, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh...another highlight for me from the GA today was:
> 
> The Bellringer from St Pauls.
> 
> Who rightly pointed out that St Pauls has been closed to the public for a very long time now. In fact, the moment they started making everyone pay to enter it went from a public place of worship and sanctury to a business enterprise. Well done that man!



Yea, he was brilliant, i didn't realise he was the bellringer


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> Yea, he was brilliant, i didn't realise he was the bellringer



Yeah...think he said he does some singing there too....Don't know if he will be allowed to for much longer but nevermind, he already expressed a desire to join the camp at some point.


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 22, 2011)

When I was there earlier today there was a posh wedding going on, so the church wasn't entirely closed.

I've been a "friend" of St Paul's for a number of years (£20 gets you an annual pass) but I've always felt a little uneasy about the way it commercialised itself.


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 22, 2011)

Church is big business as it always has been, the CofE owns Finsbury Square for example, the council run it according to the Churches T+C's


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> Church is big business as it always has been, t*he CofE owns Finsbury Square for example,* the council run it according to the Churches T+C's



Yeah...I just found this out too. I wonder if the Olsx camp knew this before heading off there?


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 22, 2011)

Not sure tbh, lovely little twist if they didn't. Maybe St Pauls suggested FS in discussions?! Create a little more space outside so that they re-open, while tipping them off another viable other site?

eta: nobody i actually know, knows.  I've tried asking on some boards and people involved, either nobody knows or they think i'm a journo!


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 22, 2011)

TheAnonPress
UPDATE: LONDON OCCUPATIONS SPREAD... Occupations in London now happening in two other locations. RBS headquarters in Aldgate and Finsbury Square near to Liverpool Street.

anymore news about yet?? that was ^^^^^ posted 3 mins ago to me...
early still! this thread could just take off


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 22, 2011)

yes, apparently spread out to finsbury square now at least.


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 22, 2011)

Well Finsbury Square is 100% true, they have done really well in a few hours. Marquees up and things running well already (though donations and more people welcome.  The RBS headquarters story is a think incorrect.  As people marched to FS, the story given was that it was a march to RBS, cleverly not giving the police knowledge of the real destination being FS.


----------



## Dr Dolittle (Oct 22, 2011)

Brilliant! Occupations all over London! Perhaps they will end up outnumbering London's Mcdonalds'? I can see the adverts: "Coming soon to a place near you..."


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2011)

Soas Student's Union have pitched up in Fins Sq now too...They have a yurt!


----------



## marty21 (Oct 22, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> Well Finsbury Square is 100% true, they have done really well in a few hours. Marquees up and things running well already (though donations and more people welcome. The RBS headquarters story is a think incorrect. As people marched to FS, the story given was that it was a march to RBS, cleverly not giving the police knowledge of the real destination being FS.


just been down there! I was passing through tbh, plenty of people there.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 22, 2011)

From todays 'public assembly' type thing at 1pm.


----------



## bingiman (Oct 23, 2011)

Finsbury Square thing sounds like a good next step.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2011)

bingiman said:


> Finsbury Square thing sounds like a good next step.



Step made and well and truly set up!


----------



## marty21 (Oct 23, 2011)

I parked in Finsbury Square just after they set up, I was off to the South Bank, parking in the city, getting a bus down to Waterloo. When I saw the protest , part of me thought - if this kicks off, bye bye motor but i am happy to report it is a peaceful protest When I came back at about 10.30, there was a low Police presence (1 van)


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 23, 2011)

More video from today


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

Here is Occupy London's reply to Church asking them to leave. It basically says they have addressed H&S issues with Fire Brigade and local officials. So are asking the Church what the problem is.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

Family Day next Saturday


----------



## Gmart (Oct 23, 2011)

Squat the cathedral if they have decided to cosy up with the authorities to try and stop this peaceful demonstration, why not?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15326636

At camp today this article by Paul Mason ( Newsnight economist reporter) was stuck on wall. Its worth a read. He has also written excellent book on the crisis.

This cartoon makes good point.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

Gmart said:


> Squat the cathedral if they have decided to cosy up with the authorities to try and stop this peaceful demonstration, why not?



It does look like the Church are doing this at behest of Police not for any real H&S reasons.

Also the Camp is becoming a tourist attraction. I saw tourists wandering around taking photos. Also saw Camp Tourist Guide showing someone around. 

Total bollox that its damaging St Pauls revenues. There is no need for Church to close to visitors.

The camp is clean and well organised.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

Few shots from Saturday 22nd


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

BTW I took some food up on Sat.

They now have lots and lots of Teabags.

They were asking for bottled water as supply of water seems to be a problem.

They liked the high quality soya desserts I brought. Looks like they have lots of basic food but not so much treats.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 23, 2011)

What the FUCK is GOOOOINNNNG ON MAAAAAN
shit is FUCKED UP!


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> who seems a bit up themselves? and from having a poke about today, i'd say any temp worker in a cafe or restaurant in any local facility is probably coining it due to the number of tourists tbf.



I know people who work in coffee bars. They do not "coin it". They get paid the same amount whether the cafe is busy or not. And that is the min wage or just above it. I thought that would be obvious.

A lot of coffee bars use EFL students who have visas. They can only work part time due to visa.

Unlike Bankers they dont get a bonus.

However its always a problem with protest. Many people dont have much so if they feel there low paid job is in danger will complain. Not everyone has the time or resources to "Occupy London". These protests can be seen to be done by those with the time and resources to spend. This can cause resentment even if its directed at the wrong people.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 23, 2011)

Yeah - fund managers, stock brokers, CEOs, waitresses. Rich cunts.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> Yeah - fund managers, stock brokers, CEOs, *waitresses.* Rich cunts.


 
Oh come on!!! Nobody is saying that!

In fact the woman who spoke last night made a decent point, the LSX camp are now aware of it and will be doing stuff in support of those workers.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 23, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i'd say any temp worker in a cafe or restaurant in any local facility is probably coining it due to the number of tourists tbf.



^ That would seem the implication of this post.


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 23, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Family Day next Saturday



Where are the 15th Hussars and their trusty sabres when they are needed?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 23, 2011)

James Meadway speaking outside the BoE yesterday.


----------



## rekil (Oct 23, 2011)

copliker said:


> "no party political or union literature or flags" allowed at the demo next saturday.


Yet Bragg showed up and honked out some old school union propaganda after relaying some useless bollocks from La Pennyionara. Bold as brass.



I see they did that creepy culty call response thing on the march.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 23, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I know people who work in coffee bars. They do not "coin it". They get paid the same amount whether the cafe is busy or not. And that is the min wage or just above it. I thought that would be obvious.
> 
> A lot of coffee bars use EFL students who have visas. They can only work part time due to visa.
> 
> ...



Good post. How do you overcome this?


----------



## treelover (Oct 23, 2011)

'Yet Bragg showed up and honked out some old school union propaganda after relaying some useless bollocks from La Pennyionara. Bold as brass.'

She really is shameless...


----------



## treelover (Oct 23, 2011)

The 'Occupy Dame St seems to have more middle aged people, etc on it, is this the case?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 23, 2011)

Took this video on Saturday outside the BoE.

John Christensen, an economist from the Tax Justice Network.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 23, 2011)




----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Where are the 15th Hussars and their trusty sabres when they are needed?



This made me laugh


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> James Meadway speaking outside the BoE yesterday.




That was interesting thanks for that link. Did you film these?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 23, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Good post. How do you overcome this?



To be honest I don't know. Its both a political and a practical problem. Many people just dont have time due to struggling to get by.

In theory the Labour Party , for example, was set up to represent people. People paid ( and still do) into party so it had funds to subsidize ( right word?) activism. It was supposed to represent the interest of those who just got by not the rich. However the Labour Party now tends to support financial and business elites. Hoping for some trickle down of wealth.

So one way to overcome this is to have political group/ party which can raise funds for activism and which is democratically run.

The only thing that has irritated me about the OL is some attitudes that if ur not active then ur part of the problem. I find this insensitive to the reality of many peoples lives.

Interestingly people have been donating money to OL. There is a discussion on the OL website about what to do with this and how to use it. They are thinking of either getting a Coop bank account or Credit Union one. This might lead to more permanent organisation. Though they dont explore this in there discussions.

Ive looked at there website and they are making big attempts to run the OL democratically internal to the Occupation. How much this is practically possible on a wider basis is questionable.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2011)

.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2011)

Been at both camps today...both running well...FSq doing very well for only being day two...low police profile, no idea what they are planning. Toilet issues need sorting at FSq though as the protesters are relying on the local cafes/pubs etc mostly.

Occupy Newcastle got raided by the EDL was the hot/angry news of the day.

Apart from that, some great discussions, a few interesting lectures, oh and I sat in the yurt. I want one! 

Oh and btw, there are many great minds here on Urban, why not head down to either of the camps and do a lecture/workshop of some sort...they are calling out for people to get involved in this way too.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Occupy Newcastle got raided by the EDL was the hot/angry news of the day.



Wtf?!?


----------



## BigTom (Oct 23, 2011)

I posted about that on the EDL watch thread, not much info around except some bits on twitter.. have a look at the last page on that thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2011)

BigTom said:


> I posted about that on the EDL watch thread, not much info around except some bits on twitter.. have a look at the last page on that thread.


a link would be nice


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2011)

if you want a job done properly...

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/edl-watch.262722/page-176#post-10567782


----------



## BigTom (Oct 23, 2011)

yeah, sorry [slaps self for laziness]


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2011)

Cheers.

Not much detail though - was it mentioned what the EDL wanted, what their beef was etc?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2011)

8ball said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Not much detail though - was it mentioned what the EDL wanted, what their beef was etc?



Boredom? May have noticed a brown face on site? Smash the left? No idea.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2011)

Fair enough - ta.

Twats...


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 23, 2011)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2011)

Yeah I posted that before Jeff.  Excellent over the top parody....Heart of the story!


----------



## BigTom (Oct 24, 2011)

8ball said:


> Cheers.
> 
> Not much detail though - was it mentioned what the EDL wanted, what their beef was etc?



From the few things that everythingEDL snapped from some of the pages of Newcastle EDL it looked like they viewed the occupiers as unwashed lefty scum.

http://twitpic.com/74od30
http://twitpic.com/74nsi6 < she seems to think that they are UAF..
http://twitpic.com/74oba1
http://twitpic.com/74o9g6
http://twitpic.com/74o73x
http://twitpic.com/74o4ta


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2011)

Weird.

Seems they've got it in for any protest that's not fully in support of racism.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 24, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> That was interesting thanks for that link. Did you film these?



yes mate.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 24, 2011)

This is a slightly more flashy video of the same events


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 24, 2011)

8ball said:


> Weird.
> 
> Seems they've got it in for any protest that's not fully in support of racism.



it's not weird. it's the far right. EDL may claim to be non-fash who are simply anti islam but like every other far right rabble before them they attack anything percieved to be left wing as well as people who are the wrong skin tone.


----------



## albionism (Oct 24, 2011)

Indeed.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 24, 2011)

Didn't think it would be long before the scum started cracking on to this.


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 24, 2011)

I was wondering how long it would take for talk of action to close the camp(s)....



> *Church may take legal action to move St Paul's protesters*
> 
> *The City of London Corporation is poised to take legal action to remove protesters at St Paul’s after the activists vowed to maintain their occupation until after Christmas.*
> 
> ...


----------



## g force (Oct 24, 2011)

I like the quote that St Paul's needs £20k to stay open. Close it then...it should be a place of worship not for you to whore out to make some extra cash. Funny how when the dome was closed for "safety" reasons, corporate sponsors could still take people up there.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 24, 2011)




----------



## London_Calling (Oct 24, 2011)

What "legal action" is available if they were invited onto Church land in the first place, and I have no idea what this has to do with the City of London Corporation?

All I've seen so far is faff and guff - not a single line about the actual legal position.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> it's not weird. it's the far right. EDL may claim to be non-fash who are simply anti islam but like every other far right rabble before them they attack anything percieved to be left wing as well as people who are the wrong skin tone.



Guess so, but I'd kind of got the idea that the EDL had aspirations to some kind of 'broader appeal' rather than just doing the standard NF type bollocks.  Still, no secret that they're not too bright.

Re: the Telegraph article mentioned by claphamboy - seems weird that there is this talk of 'lost revenues' at nearby businesses - I keep hearing that the camp is something of a tourist attraction in itself.  Comments under the article are sort of encouraging.


----------



## London_Calling (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh, and good luck this afternoon to UK Uncut at HMRC.


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 24, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> What "legal action" is available if they were invited onto Church land in the first place, and I have no idea what this has to do with the City of London Corporation?
> 
> All I've seen so far is faff and guff - not a single line about the actual legal position.



Well it seems there's some confusion over who actually owns the land, from the Telegraph article...



> A source for the City of London Corporation said that they were ready to take action but it was really up to the church to take the lead as they had invited the protesters to stay in the first place.
> “The legal process will move slowly but we need to start it as soon as possible,” they said.
> “We have said all along that protest is fine but a campsite is not.”
> The process to remove the protesters is further complicated by confusion over who owns the land.
> *Ancient deeds show that the churchyard is a patchwork of different plots and this will need disentangling before court action can proceed.*



Which sounds promising.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2011)

Will2403 said:


>


at least we're not fucking stupid? there's no apostrophe in 'americans'


----------



## London_Calling (Oct 24, 2011)

That Telegraph article is worthless - weekend staff filler from a 'general reporter'.


----------



## story (Oct 24, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Well it seems there's some confusion over who actually owns the land, from the Telegraph article...
> 
> Which sounds promising.



And some if it is common land, fwiw.

London_Calling: It was thus reported on last night's BBC news as well. Are they taking their story from the same source?

What's the deal with common land these days, btw?


----------



## story (Oct 24, 2011)

I was up there yesterday and had a chat with some people. A young lady who is part of the on-site support crew told me that she is a bank worker, commuting to work each day. She didn't know how many other City workers are there, but she said she didn't think she's the only one.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 24, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> yes mate.



Keep them coming. Its good to have alternative to mainstream press. Some press are sympathetic but are not reporting the ideas behind occupation in much detail.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 24, 2011)

story said:


> I was up there yesterday and had a chat with some people. A young lady who is part of the on-site support crew told me that she is a bank worker, commuting to work each day. She didn't know how many other City workers are there, but she said she didn't think she's the only one.



What is the on site support crew?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> What is the on site support crew?


the crew that are on site to support people.


----------



## story (Oct 24, 2011)

First aid, info, kitchen tent... Activists who are doing infrastructure/site support stuff.

I said something generic instead of something specific.

The point was that she's not just hanging about at the edges but actually part of the camp.

I left it generic because she made it clear that she was nervous about the safety of her job if she was identified.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 24, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> I was wondering how long it would take for talk of action to close the camp(s)....



Some shops are doing ok. I dropped into Marks and Sparks ( right by the camp) to get them some milk. The cashier was really chatty. No problem there then.

Paternoster sq is upmarket shopping sq built a few years ago. The Police have blocked off the southern entrance. Its Paternosters fault for barricading there sq up. No need the camp is no threat to them.

I cycle around there all the time. Paternoster sq never imo was that successful. They probably make more money from the office space above.

One New Change, just down the road, is better space. Its just opened and has probably taken some trade from Paternoster sq.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2011)

Any wetherspoons?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 24, 2011)

BigTom said:


> From the few things that everythingEDL snapped from some of the pages of Newcastle EDL it looked like they viewed the occupiers as unwashed lefty scum.
> 
> http://twitpic.com/74od30
> http://twitpic.com/74nsi6 < she seems to think that they are UAF..
> ...



Revealing posts on twitter. As Dotcommunist says shows them for what they are- the far right.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 24, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Any wetherspoons?



To downmarket.

There is swanky Terrace Bar. The roof terrace has great views
http://uk.opentable.com/madison

Madison, the highly anticipated Cafe, Bar and Restaurant destined for the roof terrace at One New Change. Overlooking the iconic dome of St Paul's Cathedral, the panoramic views of historic London from Europe's largest public roof terrace are as inspiring as they are breathtaking. From an early morning breakfast to an informal lunchtime meeting Madison offers an elevated atmosphere for those who like a generous side order of history and culture with their daily paper, friends or colleagues. And as night falls Madison's low-lighting, skyline views and cool but comfortable furnishings combine to create an undeniably stylish vibe. Relax at the bar or have dinner in the spacious dining room while looking down on one of the world's most historic and exciting cities


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Oct 24, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Any wetherspoons?


One down near Bank Tube, 5mins walk away. Probably the least patronised pub in the City.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2011)

Ta. Makes sense.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 24, 2011)

The EDL are, amongst other things, seething jealous.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 24, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> One New Change, just down the road, is better space. Its just opened and has probably taken some trade from Paternoster sq.



and they have free toilets in the 'community toilets scheme'


----------



## YouSir (Oct 24, 2011)

Popped up there today, numbers apparently down a bit, some St Paul's manager type getting pissed off with people and, most amusingly, a couple of guys rounding off a fairly civil and in depth discussion with a city worker with 'of course it's all the Rothschild's fault', which was a bit depressing.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 24, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Keep them coming. Its good to have alternative to mainstream press. Some press are sympathetic but are not reporting the ideas behind occupation in much detail.



Thanks btw.  It's proving to be an uphill struggle to get videos of what actually happens there to be viewed at all on the fb page, in amongst zeitgeist posts, the latest update on someone sneezing on wall street and the diversions provided by trolls and the ongoing saga of St. Paul's.


----------



## London_Calling (Oct 24, 2011)

In terms of duration, you have to think the St Pauls dwellers are looking at a potentially longer occupation than those (including the Urbanites) who've expanded to  Finsbury Square (where ownership must be clearer).


----------



## krink (Oct 24, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


>




Something crops up in this that I enjoy talking about with people who say 'the media says it's all anarchists but there are pensioners, people who work, all kinds of people here" as if anarchists can't be those things. Some people are so taken by the media representation they can't even imagine anarchists have jobs, families etc.

(waits for the usual corny jokes)


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 24, 2011)

Everyone stops being an anarchist the moment they get a job, have a child, or reach the age of 65. Fact.


----------



## rekil (Oct 24, 2011)

treelover said:


> The 'Occupy Dame St seems to have more middle aged people, etc on it, is this the case?


I don't know tbh. I'm miles away and haven't been anywhere near it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Any wetherspoons?



15 mins walk away, near Farringdon tube.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Everyone stops being an anarchist the moment they get a job, have a child, or reach the age of 65. Fact.



One or all of those things?


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 24, 2011)

Yes


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2011)

Yes one or yes all? Or both?


----------



## bingiman (Oct 24, 2011)

Good on you Ian.

http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/occupy-london-i-was-wrong/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2011)

bingiman said:


> Good on you Ian.
> 
> http://ianbone.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/occupy-london-i-was-wrong/





> *OCCUPY LONDON – I WAS WRONG*
> 
> Just been down to the St.Pauls camp and was impressed. Lot of energy and vibrancy about and a pro-active mindset of not just waiting for something to happen but taking the initiative. Hence the second camp at Finsbury Square  and the UkUncut moving off to see Dave Hartnett. There are the conspiracy types around but the world of possibilities  opened up by the camp far outweighs the negatives. If November 9th action links cabbies with campers that’ll be historic! As at eton a reaction provoke a reaction – which doing nothing can never do. I echo the positive remarks   about the camp of incubus,Kelly and others on here. I shall try not to be so grumpy in future.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 24, 2011)

some recent tweets on the gay abandon of occupy london:

_seems #*occupylsx* are banning alcohol and drugs from camp due to troublemakers, rather than banning said troublemakers._
_Can #*occupylsx* actually ban drinking on a public street? Harsher laws than the govt. Hardly an exercise in creating a future better society_
_From what I could tell #*occupylsx* debate to ban drinking was more a debate on 'what to do about the homeless people here'_
_If you're occupying public space, then you have to deal with the public, in all shapes and forms. Blanket ban's on drink have never worked_


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 24, 2011)

Some pics from Friday: http://entoptika.co.uk/occupylsx7/


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 24, 2011)

yea, I read their debate on drugs and alcohol, it all seemed a bit alarmist to me (though i've not spent much time there tbf, perhaps they've had issues). Discretion seems obvious to me, not an outright ban, i'd want to be able to have a spliff and a bottle of vodka in my tent without being told off. It's an open occupation so deal with the public as and when a problem arises surely.

eta: beaten by seconds by a better post


----------



## albionism (Oct 24, 2011)

At Occupy Sydney, if there had been even a whiff of ganja,
the police would have smashed it up. It would not have lasted
a day, let alone a week.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2011)

They are trying to self-police...there have been issues already and they do not want to give the police any excuses!!!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2011)

I think doing it in your tent and not annoying others would be fine...unfortunately, others have not been that responsible!


----------



## krink (Oct 24, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I think doing it in your tent and not annoying others would be fine...unfortunately, others have not been that responsible!



we are still taking about smoking spliffs aren't we


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 24, 2011)

krink said:


> we are still taking about smoking spliffs aren't we



Heh! As far as I know it's not a sex free zone....YET!


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2011)

The only way for this movement to flourish is to clamp down on any deviant behaviour now!!!

Now go to bed - inspections at 7am sharp!!


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 24, 2011)

I can't see it, but the times are running with a story that the police did a thermal image scan of occupylsx and 9out of 10 tents were empty.  I'm thinking propaganda, anyone know what time of day they claim this was?  During today's UkUncut link up if my first guess, or maybe during GA? or pure BS?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> I can't see it, but the times are running with a story that the police did a thermal image scan of occupylsx and 9out of 10 tents were empty. I'm thinking propaganda, anyone know what time of day they claim this was? During today's UkUncut link up if my first guess, or maybe during GA? or pure BS?



I'm wondering what the inference of such propaganda would be.  Is it that they're all secretly staying in hotels or perhaps that they've evolved some form of thermal camouflage?


----------



## OneStrike (Oct 25, 2011)

8ball said:


> I'm wondering what the inference of such propaganda would be. Is it that they're all secretly staying in hotels or perhaps that they've evolved some form of thermal camouflage?



It would be ironic if most there were in fact Lizards.


----------



## treelover (Oct 25, 2011)

'_André Spicer, professor of organisational behaviour at Cass Business School, said in a note this morning that bridging the gap between the two parties could potentially provide bankers with a range of ideas for new financial products and markets. _
_Green money and feminised finance were among a host of ideas that were suggested by Spicer to be popular among the protesters and that could potentially gain traction if bankers opened a dialogue.__He said: “We all know that innovation is the crucial motor of economic development but often innovation comes from the margins. Some of the demands of the protesters include ecological sustainability, equality and an increasingly democratic financial system.'_

When i studied at Uni, i was struck by how much of business and organisational studies and through them business culture had been influenced by the counter culture, now just like in the sixties academics are working out ways the new movements can benefit business though exploiting new organisational strategies, ideas, etc, even if this isn't their original intention.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 25, 2011)

Recuperation


----------



## BigTom (Oct 25, 2011)

@occupylsx have put this photo out which they say shows that thermal imaging cameras can't see through tents - clearly in this shot it hasn't, unless the person in question is missing exactly the part of the leg behind the tent.


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 25, 2011)

BigTom said:


> @occupylsx have put this photo out which they say shows that thermal imaging cameras can't see through tents - clearly in this shot it hasn't, unless the person in question is missing exactly the part of the leg behind the tent.








The first comment under it says.



> Errrmmm, yes it will block the IR from the body, as is shown by this man. That is not the point though. If it is occupied it will warm up and show its own IR signature. Watch the video, occupied tents are obvious, and unoccupied tents are clear.
> 
> An occupied tent is designed to trap air so that air warms up. That tent will then show as warmer than the surroundings (not as warm as this man's body, but very distinct from the background).



LINK TO VIDEO


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2011)

No pressing need to reply to the paper here.


----------



## krink (Oct 25, 2011)

has anything been happening at the other camp in finsbury square?


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 25, 2011)

Typical shite from Telegraph hack, David Hughes



> They've been rumbled. It turns out that the  Occupy London Stock Exchange (OccupyLSX) protesters who have settled in St Paul's Churchyard are not only not occupying the Stock Exchange – they are not even occupying their own tents. Our enterprising news reporters were there in the small hours with a thermal imaging camera and discovered that most of the tents were empty.
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...ge-theyre-not-even-occupying-their-own-tents/


----------



## treelover (Oct 25, 2011)

Why are the Met releasing and indeed revealing information on who is sleeping at OLSX, what is the purpose, it is in their remit and is it legal?


----------



## krink (Oct 25, 2011)

i wonder if the undercover plod stay the night?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 25, 2011)

Can't see the Telegraph vid on their site for some reason, but someone has uploaded to youtube.



I'd imagine there are some empty tents there, altho people are coming and going so they may be occupied the next day.  Not much room for you to bring your own there.  Besides which, why would people be presumed to be just sitting in their tent while everyone is talking/ working/ singing whatever... ?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 25, 2011)

Maybe they're all at the pub


----------



## nino_savatte (Oct 25, 2011)

The Torygraph article is dishonest and they're looking for any excuse the smear the occupiers.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2011)

No need to reply to it


----------



## rekil (Oct 25, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they're all at the pub


A woman from the camp told skynews that a) it was a ludicrous thing to be discussing and b) many people were still up doing stuff at that time, but ace reporter Kay Burley was having none of it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 25, 2011)

copliker said:


> A woman from the camp told skynews that a) it was a ludicrous thing to be discussing and b) many people were still up doing stuff at that time, but ace reporter Kay Burley was having none of it.



Do you think all the tents will be full to bursting tonight?


----------



## rekil (Oct 25, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Do you think all the tents will be full to bursting tonight?


Headline tomorrow: St.Paul's Steps Sordid Lesbian Love-In Shame


----------



## magneze (Oct 25, 2011)

Using heat sensors to see who is in a tent? Isn't that a breach of the right of privacy?


----------



## treelover (Oct 25, 2011)

http://www.channel4.com/news/occupy-london-protesters-criticise-police-surveillance

Ch 4 News on the case, they do like their civil liberty issues..


----------



## krink (Oct 25, 2011)

copliker said:


> Headline tomorrow: St.Paul's Steps Sordid Lesbian Love-In Shame



Cooor blimey Missus!!!! If that story runs there'll be a few more tents pitched around britain! PHWOAR!


----------



## treelover (Oct 25, 2011)

I bet the tabloids are just itching for those headlines...


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 25, 2011)

krink said:


> has anything been happening at the other camp in finsbury square?


I went there today and there seems to be an amiable atmosphere and some attempt to set up some community projects rather than just two fingers up protesting. There was talk of setting up a 'Polytentnic'/skills exchange. I hope something comes of it and more people get involved.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2011)

It makes no difference whether the tents are empty or not...the occupation is an occupation. The opposition are clutching at straws now.

Or perhaps I missed that memo where the Official Rules of Protest were laid out in full...


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 25, 2011)

So the telegraph is owned by a pair of tax exiles eh?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

Gonna be arriving at kingsX in about a half hour.

Need a tent! A big one. Got a suitcase, rucksack and bag.

Where should I go?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 25, 2011)

Get back on the train and go back and get a tent?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

And an inflatable double mattress for da laydeez!!!  <3 <3 <3 

If that googley eyed long haired dude can pull one of them activist bints I been reading about then I must be in wiv a shout right? And I ain't even a cop!!!

Hop on baby!


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

All the shops r shut?!

I'm on the train and there ain't no tents on it


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm sure they'll be pleased you've joined them.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

Plus I only got £8.70 in the whole world til Friday. Does anyone know any hot women who pay for sex wiv scrawny trinidoodians? I only got a tiny cock tho but it's not the size of the boat it's da motion of da ocean ain't it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 25, 2011)

get back on the train fella


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 25, 2011)

Decent piece on Channel 4 news just now tackling the Telegraph story about 'empty tents'.

And Mark Field MP (Conservative MP for Cities of London and Westminster) is down there telling protestors they've made their point and should now go home.

Ironically, this was then followed by a piece on the repression of protest by the Syrian Government!


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> get back on the train fella


still on it :/


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> All the shops r shut?!
> 
> I'm on the train and there ain't no tents on it


haha


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> still on it :/


seriously, why are you going there?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

Protest against the kleptocracy n that.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 25, 2011)

liar


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

Ok I'm at kingsX. Wtf do I do now?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Ok I'm at kingsX. Wtf do I do now?



Do you have a thermal imaging camera on you?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

Nope, what do I need one of those for 

Got some binoculars tho


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Got some binoculars tho


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Ok I'm at kingsX. Wtf do I do now?


get back on the train and go back to where you came from.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 25, 2011)

Fuck you guys! I'm going on the underground to that fins bury park square


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 25, 2011)

you may be ok there if you're prepared to make yourself useful. but it's rather presumptious to turn up without a tent and expect to be accommodated. you're kind of missing the point of the whole thing if you're just there to leech and perv at women. expect to be shunned.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 25, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you may be ok there if you're prepared to make yourself useful. but it's rather presumptious to turn up without a tent and expect to be accommodated. you're kind of missing the point of the whole thing if you're just there to leech and perv at women. expect to be shunned.


i think they've only banned the boozers so far, not the pervs...


----------



## Libertad (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Ok I'm at kingsX. Wtf do I do now?



Ever been to London on your own before?


----------



## Greebo (Oct 25, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you may be ok there if you're prepared to make yourself useful. but it's rather presumptious to turn up without a tent and expect to be accommodated.


^^^this.  And FWIW sleeping on an airbed even in summer let alone at this time of year is likely to be bloody cold.  Your probability of pulling is... somewhat less than my spending a day in full slap, 4" heels and a tutu.  ie. none whatsoever.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Ok I'm at kingsX.


Are you _sure_?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 25, 2011)

.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 25, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Fuck you guys! I'm going on the underground to that fins bury park square



You're going to Finsbury Park Square tube station?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 25, 2011)

What time was Wills last post? 

Will...post again, I will give you directions and a few pointers.

Anyway...a great afternoon spent running a blackboard making workshop to help tidy up the front of the Fins Sq site.

They look great and will help cut down on the wastage of constantly having to update signs etc...

Whilst not the most important thing, the image of the camps is important. The Fins Sq one is attracting a lot of attention from passers by, tourist and local workers, lots of press!...Softening the front image of the camp is a way of maintaining the average person can stop and chat, leave a message and/or come in...I was impressed by the 'types' of people who came along after work to donate money and or food. Nice! 

Everyone can help/get involved....I donated some bunting of all things from our local community shed which was appreciated even.

People can, hang out, help with x, y, z, work out where their skills are necessary, share ideas and info, contribute to meetings and assemblies, run workshops, deliver lectures/presentations....nothing is too small an input...practical, personal, academic...all skills are valuable.

Oh and great to see a couple of Urbanites there too today. Much more human in person as well! 

Pics in a bit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 25, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they're all at the pub



There was dicussion today that the helicopter passed over too early in the evening for people to be in bed/tent asleep. One person said that it was around 9pm-ish...not really bedtime at all, no wonder no-one was in their tent.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 25, 2011)

Just went down to Finsbury Square occupation and the idea of a third occupation in the City came up. Maybe we can just keep on going and colonise the City. It's about time it worked that way round. And if anyone asks 'What are you going to achieve?', I shall say, "You tell me what ten years in Afghanistan has achieved?" and when they can't answer I shall say "Ha! I don't know the answer to your question but if you come and ask me in ten years I bet I'll have some idea by then."


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 25, 2011)

3rd camp will be needed very soon. More and more people camping out...people from out of town ariving daily which replenishes those who have been about since the start and are having to return to work/study/deal with life/personal issues.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 25, 2011)




----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 26, 2011)

tbh tldr..

What time was the thermal imaging? as surprisingly some have jobs to go to survive... or uni.. or wherever ya might be at during the day?

i mean who the feck really stays in the tents and all day n night?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 26, 2011)

Times running a story saying the canon is threatening to resign


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 26, 2011)

wow!


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 26, 2011)

Apparently there's some bloke sleeping in Finsbury park with a load of placards and a big suitcase


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

Hello!!!


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Just went down to Finsbury Square occupation and the idea of a third occupation in the City came up. Maybe we can just keep on going and colonise the City. It's about time it worked that way round. And if anyone asks 'What are you going to achieve?', I shall say, "You tell me what ten years in Afghanistan has achieved?" and when they can't answer I shall say "Ha! I don't know the answer to your question but if you come and ask me in ten years I bet I'll have some idea by then."


this be da whole troof sir! You are wise beyond your years. Carry on  you have blessings my child


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> Apparently there some bloke sleeping in Finsbury park with a load of placards and a big suitcase


when I landed I was all like... This ain't Aruba biatch! 

My cape needs calibrating cos it looks like the inbuilt gps is fuct, and the battery on my phone ran out at 20:54


----------



## peterkro (Oct 26, 2011)

I take it you made it to Finsbury Sq,hope your having fun,please be respectful to the women there,a smack in the gob might spoil your day.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

Last attempted post at 20:54 - ran out of battery and dint have no connection for 12 hours. Started panicking and having wivdrawals 

Ok I'm at moorgate now. Off to Liverpool street cos that sounds like the best one. Except all the trains have different names and I've been waiting for the one that says barking. But I kept missing it, then I goes and asks someone and this dude goes ALL THE TRAINS FROM THIS PLATFORM GOES TO LIVERPOOL STREET 

pfft! Someone could said sooner! Been here a half hour


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 26, 2011)

So you in Starbucks yet?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

Nah im having some drinks from dirty dicks!! Mmm they taste goooooooooood!!  

yeh I'm in Starbucks having a benty tee  in a big mug and stealing electricity and making loadsa rollies and internetting and planning like wot to do later n that.


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

Might go science museum and see if the spuddies are playin at home, gonna go laugh at their stupid fans to their stupid faces in their stupid little football pitch.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Might go science museum and see if the spuddies are playin at home, gonna go laugh at their stupid fans to their stupid faces in their stupid little football pitch.


on yer way then


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2011)

Will2403 said:


> Last attempted post at 20:54 - ran out of battery and dint have no connection for 12 hours. Started panicking and having wivdrawals


haha


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

Anti capitalist occupation of Starbucks underway. Wearing my favourite anti capitalist tee shirt - lfc 2011/12 training top - and it's going well so far, but still early days yet


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2011)

There is a camp at Liverpool Street?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 26, 2011)

where did you stay last night will?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

In a £2000 per night hotel in mayfair


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> There is a camp at Liverpool Street?


no but don't you think there should be? 
For us mighty redmen! We could make flags with 

SUAREZ 
7
JUST CAN'T GET ENOUGH!

written on them!


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 26, 2011)

Whether you are in London or not, Will, can you stop trashing this thread with your pointless posts?


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

My fone knows the score!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2011)

Okay, I am ignoring Will now.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 26, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Whether you are in London or not, Will, can you stop trashing this thread with your pointless posts?


Yeah let's see some action Will. Get the placards up


----------



## ddraig (Oct 26, 2011)

so the Bishop wades in
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15457669


> The Bishop of London has called on anti-capitalist protesters camped outside St Paul's Cathedral to leave.
> The Rt Revd Richard Chartres said the camp had raised important questions but its presence threatened "to eclipse entirely" the issues being raised.


nothing about the canon threatening to go then! 
or the thermal imaging bullshit story


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 26, 2011)

Shit's gonna go down now Will's there to bash the bishop


----------



## Will2403 (Oct 26, 2011)

In a bit ffs! Busy in my tent jerkin some gherkins mate. You gotta make a living in this town :/ "/


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Oct 26, 2011)

Will. Stop it. _*Now*_


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks Mrs M.


----------



## past caring (Oct 26, 2011)

peterkro said:


> I take it you made it to Finsbury Sq,hope your having fun,please be respectful to the women there,a smack in the gob might spoil your day.



It'd make mine.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 26, 2011)

New thermal images released.


----------



## magneze (Oct 26, 2011)

Adam Boulton compares the occupiers to Nazis. 



Must be doing something right if Sky News is doing this.


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 26, 2011)

FFS, Boulton manages to make an even bigger twat of himself, just how low can he get?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2011)

Hes actually saying that they're not like the nazis. That he says this is why they're shit is what is worth talking about. (Do people really watch things anymore? Or is jiust buzzword shi)


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 26, 2011)

He compared them to Nazis as magneze posted, but found them not to be like Nazis, as BA says, based on the fact the one guy admitted he goes home to sleep at night, it was a fucking dumb and very stupid comparison to make, leaves Boulton looking more stupid than he normally does, which is an achievement in itself.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 26, 2011)

Sponsored Copper... 







Anyone see the videos from Oakland, USA btw?  Crazy shit really.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 26, 2011)

Police investigating a rape of occupier by strangers at the Glasgow occupation...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ent-demo-in-glasgow-s-george-square-1.1131370


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 26, 2011)

indeed....


----------



## treelover (Oct 26, 2011)

I wonder when Starhawk will turn up, Venus is already there...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 26, 2011)

treelover said:


> I wonder when Starhawk will turn up, Venus is already there...


if starhawk is the geezer who has previous rooftop protests etc.. under his belt... he is there sporadically...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2011)

...and done a sex-change


----------



## treelover (Oct 26, 2011)

Aye, she is a septic...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 26, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> ...and done a sex-change


wrong person then so....


----------



## TruXta (Oct 26, 2011)

This Starhawk? http://www.starhawk.org/


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 26, 2011)

"Cathedral to reopen shocker"


----------



## love detective (Oct 26, 2011)

tranquility team - that's from all the wet climate camp bollocks no?


----------



## love detective (Oct 26, 2011)

'you drippy little posh fucks'


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 26, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> "Cathedral to reopen shocker"



They are going to leave themselves looking very stupid and about £100-150k out of pocket, twats.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 26, 2011)

Fair play to 'em imo.

eta (the tranquility team I mean).  although st pauls have been quite brave to backtrack.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 26, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> if starhawk is the geezer who has previous rooftop protests etc.. under his belt... he is there sporadically...


don't you mean skywarrior?


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 26, 2011)

.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 26, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> don't you mean skywarrior?


must be!!!


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 26, 2011)

he's a total helm, if his twitter feed is anything to go by.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 26, 2011)

You can now submit a form if you want to give a talk, discussion or other event: http://tentcityuniversity.occupylsx.org/?page_id=6


----------



## treelover (Oct 26, 2011)

'just a thought. why not set up a splinter camp in chipping norton (david cameron's home constituency). there's bound to be common land. the movement could bus out inner city youth so they can integrate with the locals and see how they really deserve their wealth and influence. it would go down really well with the worlds media.'

this is a good idea, they have just closed the youth advice centre where cameron spoke


----------



## treelover (Oct 26, 2011)

Couldn't someone from the welfare campaigns or an academic give a talk about the genesis of the welfare reforms?


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2011)

Photos from St Paul's today:










http://www.urban75.org/blog/photos-from-the-occupy-london-protest-at-st-pauls-central-london/


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2011)

Ah the mad racist priest who accused me of being possessed by the devil on here.


----------



## Corax (Oct 26, 2011)

editor's not usually that zealous.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Oct 26, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Ah the mad racist priest who accused me of being possessed by the devil on here.


He's been defrocked.....but clearly not deskirted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Horan


----------



## Greebo (Oct 26, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Ah the mad racist priest who accused me of being possessed by the devil on here.


Somebody please get him a longer kilt.


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2011)

Greebo said:


> Somebody please get him a longer kilt.


It was a horrible sight to behold.
His dancing.That kilt. His baggy underpants that he kept flashing about. Horrid.
Maybe he was put there by the police as a special weapon to clear the area. We certainly moved away pretty sharpish.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 26, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Ah the mad racist priest who accused me of being possessed by the devil on here.


who was he on here? i see him about at loads of public events


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 26, 2011)

editor said:


> It was a horrible sight to behold.
> His dancing.That kilt. His baggy underpants that he kept flashing about. Horrid.
> Maybe he was put there by the police as a special weapon to clear the area. We certainly moved away pretty sharpish.


the cowardly lion seems to be stood behind him


----------



## 8ball (Oct 26, 2011)

Given that he believes the end times are right at hand doesn't he have more in common with the Neocons who caused all this trouble in the first place than the happy campers of London?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> who was he on here? i see him about at loads of public events


Fr Horan

See


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 26, 2011)

8ball said:


> Given that he believes the end times are right at hand doesn't he have more in common with the Neocons who caused all this trouble in the first place than the happy campers of London?


i think he just like wearing that skirt and dancing in public


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Fr Horan


Blimey!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 26, 2011)

I remember him being on Britain's Got Talent some years ago


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 26, 2011)

The newspaper of Occupy London, *The Occupied* Times of London was launched this evening. The Indy Media team has worked hard to produce this first issue and issue 2 is already in the works. For those not able to make the launch and pick up a copy you can view it online here: Occupied Times of London you can also download your own copy in PDF format here: Occupied Times Issue One PDF

http://theoccupiedtimes.com/


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 26, 2011)

editor said:


> It was a horrible sight to behold.
> His dancing.That kilt. His baggy underpants that he kept flashing about. Horrid.
> Maybe he was put there by the police as a special weapon to clear the area. We certainly moved away pretty sharpish.



He turned up halfway through the speakers on Saturday and started playing music.  Someone had a word I think.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 27, 2011)

> Claims that one in 10 tents at Occupy London remain empty overnight are based on "rubbish science", a military scientist specialising in camouflaging soldiers against thermal imaging technology has told the Guardian.
> He said: "They cannot make the assumption that they have made from those images. The way they are set up, you wouldn't be able to tell if there's anyone in the tent or not, especially if someone is sleeping in an insulated sleeping bag."
> ....
> A camera of this kind would very rarely be able to see "into" a tent, said the scientist, as tent materials are almost always opaque to thermal imaging. A photographer would only be able to detect internal activity if the tent fabric was itself re-radiating heat produced by a warm object behind it – and this in turn would only be possible if very specific camera settings were used.
> But the scientist said: "The first thing I noticed when I saw those images was that the camera was on an auto setting." In order for the images to be of any relevance, the photographer would have needed to manually adjust its settings,


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/26/occupy-london-tents-rubbish-science

Tents are meant to hold in as much as heat as possible. Its the whole point of modern tents is to keep heat in.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 27, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> The newspaper of Occupy London, *The Occupied* Times of London was launched this evening. The Indy Media team has worked hard to produce this first issue and issue 2 is already in the works. For those not able to make the launch and pick up a copy you can view it online here: Occupied Times of London you can also download your own copy in PDF format here: Occupied Times Issue One PDF
> 
> http://theoccupiedtimes.com/



hymn sheet for capitalism


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 27, 2011)

smokedout said:


> hymn sheet for capitalism


----------



## rekil (Oct 27, 2011)

Vid of bossyboots voice woman at occupy dame street a few days ago, going on about the dollar then "this has nothing to do with capitalism, nothing to do with socialism" around 4:00. I gather it hasn't all been as bad as this but fucking hell like.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 27, 2011)

What's happened to our reporter on the scene??


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 27, 2011)

copliker said:


> Vid of bossyboots voice woman at occupy dame street a few days ago, going on about the dollar then "this has nothing to do with capitalism, nothing to do with socialism" around 4:00. I gather it hasn't all been as bad as this but fucking hell like.


It's about time Mrs Doyle had her say


----------



## rekil (Oct 27, 2011)

friedaweed said:


> It's about time Mrs Doyle had her say


That's it. That's the voice.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 27, 2011)

copliker said:


> That's it. That's the voice.


"They're all shiyte."
"Now who'd like a nice cup of tea?"


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 27, 2011)

Went down there tonight.  Seems Liberty have offered to help open mediations between the camp and the city and st pauls, as they refuse to speak to the camp.  Talk of being served with court papers soon, maybe tomorrow, maybe Monday.  There was a lot of different opinions, so they agreed that Chakrabati would come to speak there tomorrow morning before the decision is made.

There is a march tomorrow at 12:30 going past British business who use Swiss banks...

and they read out this global statement.


----------



## love detective (Oct 27, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> There was a lot of different opinions, so they agreed that Chakrabati would come to speak there tomorrow morning before the decision is made.



jesus fuck


----------



## where to (Oct 27, 2011)

why businesses that use Swiss banks particularly, are they are worse than Jersey, Barbados etc etc?

i'm finding that the LSX thing is starting to get very inward-looking.  that article in the paper about the culture of protests for example, whilst i didn't particularly disagree with it, was a total waste of print imo.  surely the paper should be aimed at people OUTSIDE the protest, and not full of regular protester reference points.

i also just heard a pretty bad interview on 5live tony livesay with one of the protestor just before, who despite the direction the interview was going in said when asked what they stood for and what decisions they'd made, boasted that they took 9 days to decide to use the co-op bank for donations !

i dont think the interviewee laid on fist on the issues.  maybe worth having crib sheets with 3 agreed points of shocking statistical/ factual info that each of them should stick to during interviews or something.

instead i've found it all very inward-looking. inevitable given the bubble nature of the protest to a degree of course.


----------



## DownwardDog (Oct 28, 2011)

shaman75 said:


>



So they're going to keep on pretending to camp out until we're all living in The Culture?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 28, 2011)

no-one's pretending


----------



## treelover (Oct 28, 2011)

it would be great if S/P's opened it doors and hosted the new 'Putney Debates'


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 28, 2011)

where to said:


> why businesses that use Swiss banks particularly, are they are worse than Jersey, Barbados etc etc?
> 
> i'm finding that the LSX thing is starting to get very inward-looking. that article in the paper about the culture of protests for example, whilst i didn't particularly disagree with it, was a total waste of print imo. surely the paper should be aimed at people OUTSIDE the protest, and not full of regular protester reference points.
> 
> ...



I agree.  The assemblies seem to be taken up with a lot of decisions relating to the occupation, rather than the issues and things are slow.  I guess they are under a lot of pressure and finding their feet.  I think the workshops are more issue-based?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 28, 2011)

First post 

I put this on the comments section on Lenin's Tomb a while ago, I would appreciate feedback and critique, thanks!

_I remained totally convinced that any sort of peaceful anti-capitalist protest, of the sort that these #Occupy activists are attempting to do, will simply fail. Not because I'm keen on violence, just because if these protests actually get to the point where they pose a tangible threat to capitalist system then the state will just use brute force to stop them. As the article rightly says, unless these groups have a plan ready for how to deal with a concerted attack by the state, then they will come to an end in a hail of tear gas and rubber bullets._

_Now I know this sounds alarmist, and many of you may think "this couldn't happen here, this isn't Libya etc" but don't be too sure. Do you think the people who run our nations are any less determined, ruthless and power-hungry than Ghaddafi or Ben Ali? The ruling class will fight to the very last drop of blood, just like Ghaddafi, to protect themselves and the system that empowers them. If the American government is faced with a choice between having to attack, and even kill, its own citizens or having to see captialism systematically dismantled then I believe they will choose the former every time. _

_They won't give up without a fight y'know, we have to acknowledge this. Now, in the "democratic" west the way they fight back is overtly less violent, but that's not beacuse of their tolerance, but because it's more effective than charging in there head-first, guns blazing. In western liberal societies, first they will try and ignore you, which they did very effectively in the media for a first few weeks of these occupy protests. If you still haven't gone away by then, they will ridicule you, call you hippies etc. If you still persist, the propaganda war will be more intense, claiming that the demonstations are "illegal" or a public health hazard, using legalistic technicalities to crack down on the protests. This is currently the phase these protests are in. Anywhere in the world where these protests are taking place the media have begun attacking them using the worst kind of smear-journalism and propaganda, such as the bogus article in the Telegraph claiming that only 10% of the tents were occupied at the demonstration. If, however, the protests keep their momentum, and if they continue to win public support, at some point the state will have to act, and the final phase will begin: violent crackdown. _

_This has begun already in some cases, in Australia for example, but Oakland may be a turning point. The latest I heard on Twitter was that the guy hit by the canister is in intensive care and may not make it through. The ramifications of this may be colossal, but I don't want to make an analysis based on twitter gossip, so I'll leave it there. However, in general, because of the overwhelming public support these protestors have, I don't see them just disappearing, I think the state may be left with no other choice but to clear them by force. This article in the Independent ( http://www.independent.co.uk/n... ) mentions that the City of London Corporation is already seeking legal means to force the demonstators outside St.Pauls to leave. How do they react to this? What is the contigency plan? Likewise, in Newcastle the EDL started threatening the protestors, and have made threats to other protests in other parts of the country, what do they do about that? Well apparently in Newcastle one of the Occupy protestors went and made peace with the EDL who turned up there threatening people, apparently exchanging hugs (!) and agreeing to leave it at that, which is a totally different can of worms, but there's an EDL demonstration in Birmingham coming up that could very well end up attacking the occupy Birmingham demo, what's the plan there?_

_I thought these protestors were being too soft and too peacable when they made the initial concession of not actually attemping to occupy the London stock exchange itself, but instead St.Pauls Cathedral. It opened them up for the line of attack the papers are now persuing, and besides, for all the faults of the Church of England its not the enemy in this particular struggle. So what if attempting to occupy the LSX is illegal? They should've done it anyway. After all, just because what they are doing now is legal, it won't stop them getting arrested and beaten up by the police, will it? The government is quite happy to break the law to put down protests, see Thatcher using serving soldiers to beat up striking miners at Orgreave, ie using paramilitary police tactics, something that is illegal, so hiding behind the law won't help. They'll get nicked either way, they just have to work out what they get nicked for and how to mitigate against it._

_I'm not the one with any of the answers, but I'm reasonably sure I can see what the problems are. Is this movement one that will fold as soon as the risk of broken bones and police brutality inevitably rears it's ugly head? Or would such action galvanise even more support and militancy? hard to tell at this stage, but we will find out soon enough. _


----------



## ferrelhadley (Oct 28, 2011)

love detective said:


> jesus fuck


There are folk camping out in the cold making themselves heard and there are their intellectual superiors here on urban 75 telling them how they should be doing it.

Occupy for all its faults are out there doing something.

You can fuck off.


----------



## love detective (Oct 28, 2011)

this is the person who in response to the riots said:-



> In very testing circumstances, the response of both the police and Government has been measured and proportionate so far - we welcome this and hope it will continue.



with friends like that.......

but unless i've been in a tent 24/7 for the last couple of weeks I can't possibly pass comment of course


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 28, 2011)

Well, it seems you can't *tell* people that they can't trust the establisment organisations - they have to find out for themselves.

I think the main problem with this attempt at negotiation with Liberty is it will waste hours and hours of time that would be better spent on other things. But there we go. This is how people learn I guess.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 28, 2011)

Delroy Booth said:


> First post
> 
> _ but there's an EDL demonstration in Birmingham coming up that could very well end up attacking the occupy Birmingham demo, what's the plan there?_



Welcome  too tired to critique having spent much of last night arguing with freeman of the land about how we deal with an eviction notice!

Anyway, plan for the EDL demo tomorrow.. EDL are not going to be in the same space as occupy as was originally thought. Occupy is in victoria sqaure, next to and directly accessible is Chamberlain Square, where UAF & an umbrella group of all the Mosques around Birmingham (whose name I can't remember) are holding their counter demo. EDL demo will be in centenary square, which is the other side of chamberlain square and cut off by a big roundabout and concrete lumps of buildings.
There will be a reasonable sized group of us at the camp ready should any EDL turn up. We will be there from the morning till the evening, until it is clear that EDL have gone.
We are also in contact with UAF (who aren't much use but will at least put bodies around the camp if it looks like there might be a problem), MDL & other anti-fa groups (who will happily kick the shit out of any EDL)..

We've also been told there will be a large police presence around all three squares.

My prediction: EDL get bussed to centenary square from the station, kettled and then bussed out again. Anyone who wanders over to the camp will see lots of people and act like the cowards they are. If there is an attack then it will be rebuffed.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Oct 28, 2011)

BigTom said:


> Welcome  too tired to critique having spent much of last night arguing with freeman of the land about how we deal with an eviction notice!



May I ask what the FotL position was?  That sounds like an argument that would be...draining.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 28, 2011)

Jon-of-arc said:


> May I ask what the FotL position was? That sounds like an argument that would be...draining.



it is. some are saying send the notice back with "NO CONTRACT" written on it.  Others are arguing that we are in Lawful Rebellion under article 61 of the Magna Carta 1215 and we don't need to obey their laws..
It's the Lawful Rebellion stuff I've been arguing with. This article was repealed immediately, it doesn't appear in the Magna Carta of 1216, let alone the one of 1297 which actually still has 3 articles in force in today's laws (Freedom of the Church, Freedom of the City of London and a Right to Due Process).
Still they claim it can't be repealed.. so I've told them to get 4 barons to petition the king, and then if that doesn't work they can get 25 Barons to seize the King's assetts, as set out in article 61 of the Magna Carta of 1215.. cos that'll help us with the eviction obviously 
some of them are proper crazy.. when I pointed out that at dale farm police used tazers to enforce the law, one said something like "yeah but it doesn't justify the use of tazers does it?" like that was some kind of argument in favour of following the lawful rebellion bullshit, like they think their moral force somehow outweighs the physical force / monopoly of violence that the police have..


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 28, 2011)

Good work! I wouldn't be too worried about the EDL per se, like you've said they'll be kettled and surrounded by police all day, and when they aren't I imagine MDL and UAF etc will be all over them, but at the same time be vigilant. it's not the EDL that worry me too much, its the prospect of some random EDL kid breaking away from the main demonstration and doing something crazy that's more worrying. It only takes one nutter with a stanley knife to cause absolute mayhem y'know.

For example, have you seen this yet, from the Occupy Maine protest? A chemical bomb attack by some right-wing nutter? http://www.pressherald.com/news/Chemical-bomb-tossed-into-Occupy-Maine-encampment.html I have a horrible feeling that at some point some NRA-Militia right-wing nutball is going to turn up to one of these events and start gunning people down. It's something we don't generally have to worry about, whereas over there it's a very real danger. Some of these Tea Party types are absolutely seething with rage about the protests, partly out of ideology, but partly out of sheer envy at the fact they've been sidelined so badly.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 28, 2011)

BigTom said:


> it is. some are saying send the notice back with "NO CONTRACT" written on it. Others are arguing that we are in Lawful Rebellion under article 61 of the Magna Carta 1215 and we don't need to obey their laws..
> It's the Lawful Rebellion stuff I've been arguing with. This article was repealed immediately, it doesn't appear in the Magna Carta of 1216, let alone the one of 1297 which actually still has 3 articles in force in today's laws (Freedom of the Church, Freedom of the City of London and a Right to Due Process).
> Still they claim it can't be repealed.. so I've told them to get 4 barons to petition the king, and then if that doesn't work they can get 25 Barons to seize the King's assetts, as set out in article 61 of the Magna Carta of 1215.. cos that'll help us with the eviction obviously
> some of them are proper crazy.. when I pointed out that at dale farm police used tazers to enforce the law, one said something like "yeah but it doesn't justify the use of tazers does it?" like that was some kind of argument in favour of following the lawful rebellion bullshit, like they think their moral force somehow outweighs the physical force / monopoly of violence that the police have..



Wow.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Oct 28, 2011)

BigTom said:


> it is. some are saying send the notice back with "NO CONTRACT" written on it. Others are arguing that we are in Lawful Rebellion under article 61 of the Magna Carta 1215 and we don't need to obey their laws..
> It's the Lawful Rebellion stuff I've been arguing with. This article was repealed immediately, it doesn't appear in the Magna Carta of 1216, let alone the one of 1297 which actually still has 3 articles in force in today's laws (Freedom of the Church, Freedom of the City of London and a Right to Due Process).
> Still they claim it can't be repealed.. so I've told them to get 4 barons to petition the king, and then if that doesn't work they can get 25 Barons to seize the King's assetts, as set out in article 61 of the Magna Carta of 1215.. cos that'll help us with the eviction obviously
> some of them are proper crazy.. when I pointed out that at dale farm police used tazers to enforce the law, one said something like "yeah but it doesn't justify the use of tazers does it?" like that was some kind of argument in favour of following the lawful rebellion bullshit, like they think their moral force somehow outweighs the physical force / monopoly of violence that the police have..



Jesus christ.  I'd be tempted to evict _them _myself - I kind of figured that they would have to tone down some of their lunacy when confronted with real world activism.  Shoulda fuckin better known better.


----------



## treelover (Oct 28, 2011)

What on earth is 'Islamic Birmingham'?


----------



## BigTom (Oct 28, 2011)

treelover said:


> What on earth is 'Islamic Birmingham'?



I can't remember the name of the group, it's like the network of all the Mosques in Birmingham, it's called "Islamic Birmingham [something] .. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it but it's not just UAF doing the counter demo (and the muslim group is very moderate and has spoken out against extreme islam in the past).

Sorry should have explained / phrased that better - I'm going to go back and edit it


----------



## BigTom (Oct 28, 2011)

Delroy Booth said:


> Wow.


If you've never come across them before it's well surprising that anyone can believe this shit, but believe it they do!
there's a lot of right wingers and bnp types who are into this as well, attracts them for the Queen and Country feel of it, and a return to feudalism of course.



Jon-of-arc said:


> Jesus christ. I'd be tempted to evict _them _myself - I kind of figured that they would have to tone down some of their lunacy when confronted with real world activism. Shoulda fuckin better known better.


I'd love to tell them to fuck off and go away but it's not going to happen.  I can't believe how many of them there are in Birmingham, maybe half of the regular overnight stayers believe this shit, and lots of the day visitors as well..
Someone's going to go to jail for contempt of court if they pursue this line of thinking.


----------



## treelover (Oct 28, 2011)

300 people surrounding Birkenhead Crown court was an eye-opener

btw, COLC have voted to begin legal action to remove OLSX...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2011)

treelover said:


> 300 people surrounding Birkenhead Crown court was an eye-opener
> 
> btw, COLC have voted to begin legal action to remove OLSX...


link or stfu


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## treelover (Oct 28, 2011)

If you mean the FOTL event, it was posted on here, there was a thread about it, stop questioning my integrity...

for the eviction

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/oct/28/occupy-london-live-st-pauls-protests


----------



## treelover (Oct 28, 2011)

now S/P's
*'St Paul's cathedral has announced it is also seeking legal action to remove the Occupy London camp.'*


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 28, 2011)

treelover said:


> 300 people surrounding Birkenhead Crown court was an eye-opener
> 
> btw, COLC have voted to begin legal action to remove OLSX...



For what? An ex UKIP member trying to avoid paying tax. You think that's a good thing?


----------



## treelover (Oct 28, 2011)

Er, no, that they could get 300 people there on a weekday, its clear there are new and in some cases strange new political formations growing in the vacuum


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## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2011)

treelover said:


> Er, no, that they could get 300 people there on a weekday, its clear there are new and in some cases strange new political formations growing in the vacuum


 what a sorry excuse for a human being you are.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 28, 2011)

treelover said:


> Er, no, that they could get 300 people there on a weekday, its clear there are new and in some cases strange new political formations growing in the vacuum



That's what it was - Roger Hayes trying to avoid paying his council tax.


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## treelover (Oct 28, 2011)

you are bonkers PM...


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## ddraig (Oct 28, 2011)

video of protesters using same thermal imaging cam to debunk unnocupied bullshit


----------



## GEN.Eccentric (Oct 28, 2011)

Whats this armed raid? Sign of things to come?


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 28, 2011)

Demands on the City: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/28/occupy-london-city-st-pauls


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 28, 2011)

Another clergy member resigns.  This is a PR disaster for St Pauls.   A very poignent letter of resignation.   http://thewhiffofgod.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-resigning-from-pastoral-team-at-st.html


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## Citizen66 (Oct 28, 2011)

ddraig said:


> video of protesters using same thermal imaging cam to debunk unnocupied bullshit




Was just about to post this.


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 28, 2011)

As predicted earlier here... http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/city-of-london-operation-poncho.212305/

They are spreading the scummy tactic of using water to prevent people sleeping...
'Soak protesters with sprinklers' to prevent another St Paul's siege


> Sprinkler systems should be used to stop tent cities appearing across the capital in the wake of the anti-capitalist protest at St Paul's, the deputy mayor for policing said today.
> Kit Malthouse, who chairs the Metropolitan Police Authority, has suggested using "high powered sprinklers" in Parliament Square to discourage activists from camping in public areas.
> As the cathedral opened today for the first time in a week, Mr Malthouse said: "We do not want any more of these things springing up. There is a difference between protesters and people taking the opportunity to camp in a public space.


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## ddraig (Oct 28, 2011)

desperate fuckers


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 28, 2011)

ddraig said:


> desperate fuckers



Innit. 

It's so assuming seeing the authorities running around like headless chickens on this one.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 28, 2011)

tbh.. im failing to see the humour... they have now greenlighted operation poncho to pursue their persecution of 'homeless' people plus protesters....


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## ddraig (Oct 28, 2011)

not that it makes it right but westminister council and other cunt authorities have been wetting down places for years so homeless people can't sleep there.
if/when they do move in on any of the london camps they will have to be very very careful for it not to backfire bigtime


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## Corax (Oct 28, 2011)

Sprinklers?

Er... tents?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 28, 2011)

not nice when wet tho is it
they'll have high powered lighting and some sort of noise next to try and disturb their sleep


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## Shifter (Oct 28, 2011)

ddraig said:


> not nice when wet tho is it
> they'll have high powered lighting and some sort of noise next to try and disturb their sleep



.... or leave the church bells ringing.

I will be curious to see what tactic is used to break up the camp, i think the unusually mild weather has surprised the authorities, i think they were expecting that to do part of the job for them.


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## Dr Dolittle (Oct 28, 2011)

This protest has taken on a life of its own. It was originally over what the banks have done to us, about how capitalism has become totally corrupt, about us being made to pay for their recklessness. Now that is being pushed aside as all the attention becomes focussed on the occupation itself, and the same is happening in Bristol. They have created a conflict where previously no conflict existed - the right to protest by occupying a public space. Before long, people are going to get fed up with them, feel they are overstaying their welcome. And then they will start to support the evictions when they originally supported the Occupation.

I supported them originally, because I saw it as creating a physical focal point for people who wanted to join in the campaign but not to camp - since we can't all camp. It was OK that it was a bit vague at first, because the campaign had only just started. But now, after two weeks, they have taken their eye completely off the ball and ruined what could have been a great opportunity.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

Hi all...been down to FS tonight and this is a shout out to all of you that are thinking of visiting at some point over the weekend or the coming week.

Please, please, please do go and visit...take anything you can food etc (see website for wish list)...also take a good attitude and be willing to support the camps. They are within 15 minutes walk from eachother so you can visit both easily.

FS especially needs support as it is a bit over-looked because of the media storm with regards St Pauls, resignations and possible eviction.

If you have kids and are concerned that the camps are not kid friendly, please note that St Pauls is running a family day/kid activities tomorrow and I am running a pumpkin carving/mask painting workshop at FS at 2pm on Sunday, intergenerational, creative, relaxing!  This will mean that you/your little ones will be entertained!

Both camps need volunteers, no amouont of time is too small. They are doing great things already but will very much appreciate any time, information and skills you have.
Support needed also includes simply going down there, hanging out, engaging with people, adding to the atmosphere of the camp. Everything has value!


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## redsquirrel (Oct 28, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> They are doing great things already


Like what?
The support of the sparks was good but as Dolittle has pointed out above (and other posters have made similar points on other threads) the majority of effort seems to be simply going into maintaing the campsites.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> the majority of effort seems to be simply going into maintaing the campsites.



Rubbish...or at least an ill thought out acussation.

When is the last time you brought x hundred diverse people together in a space ( now 2) with no facilities and tried to build a functioning/working community, built on consensus decision making at every step of the way and relying on donations and limited personal resources?

So...of course much of the past weeks has been spent on getting the camps, up, running, functioning, growing! Geez! Give them a break ffs! On top of those points above, factor in unwanted bad press, legal issues, random passer by issues, church pressure etc, negoiating with local businesses, accomadating the needs of many and planning what the next move is...a lot of people have worked hard already, are tired etc. OBVIOUSLY! But they are still there...people are coming and going...the system they are using is being tested but they are STILL there and stronger than when they started!

Actually, instead of moaning, get down there and pitch in...many hands, light work and all that. 

If you see a 'lack' go and fill it!


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> But now, after two weeks, they have taken their eye completely off the ball and ruined what could have been a great opportunity.



Hogwash. See post above and think about the points made please.


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## ddraig (Oct 28, 2011)

granuiad 8 min video with godbothering, closed meeting in CoL and waggly hands


> As St Paul's reopens its doors, and the cathedral joins with the City of London Corporation to take legal action to evict the Occupy London protest, the activists come to terms with a manifesto being leaked to the press


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/oct/28/occupy-london-occupy-movement?


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 28, 2011)

> Rubbish...or at least an ill thought out acussation.
> 
> When is the last time you brought x hundred diverse people together in a space ( now 2) with no facilities and tried to build a functioning/working community, built on consensus decision making at every step of the way?
> 
> ...



Your post actually supports my "accusation", confirming that the vast majority of the effort is being put into setting up and maintaining the camp. That rather than using it as a springboard to conduct actions and achieve the small victories that a number of us have talked about the focus is now on simply ensuring the camp remains where it is.


----------



## love detective (Oct 28, 2011)

the whole thing seems in danger of becoming an incredibly insular and self indulgent affair, inwards looking and somewhat sub-cultural

(yet any measured/reflective criticism of if is met with howls of indignant rage because those criticising it don't have the means or ability to spend 14 nights on the trot in a tent in central london)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

Was the GA streamed at St Pauls tonight? Hope so.


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## frogwoman (Oct 28, 2011)

love detective said:


> the whole thing seems in danger of becoming an incredibly insular and self indulgent affair, inwards looking and somewhat sub-cultural
> 
> (yet any measured/reflective criticism of if is met with howls of indignant rage because those criticising it don't have the means or ability to spend 14 nights on the trot in a tent in central london)



It's interesting cos im talking at the moment to some people i know in the US and it doesn't really seem like that there at all. There are elements of that of course but it seems quite different to the UK both in character and the level of public support it has


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

love detective said:


> the whole thing seems in danger of becoming an incredibly insular and self indulgent affair, inwards looking and somewhat sub-cultural
> 
> (yet any measured/reflective criticism of if is met with howls of indignant rage because those criticising it don't have the means or ability to spend 14 nights on the trot in a tent in central london)



Rubbish. I have not slept out one night, yet have participated and been heard in more than 10 GA over the last 2 weeks. This is as 'insular' as the people who do not particpate make it.

You do not need to sleep out. Your critiscisms are best voiced and heard at the GA's. No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism, your attempt to paint a picture of that is shameful tbh.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 28, 2011)

don't know if you consider this from occupy LA insular?


> The Occupy Los Angeles General Assembly split into dueling factions Wednesday evening as a large number of occupiers who felt alienated by the highly structured, long and boring, but largely irrelevant GA , came in and took over the mike, overthrew the process, and made it an open mike session. The GA had been led by a facilitation committee that was far more concerned with process than content. This is a facilitation committee lead by a new core group. The original core group of facilitators that used the process to create Occupy Los Angeles have moved on to other areas. This may be "billed" as a leaderless movement but not only is there something to be said for leadership, there are a lot of advantages to consistent leadership, IMHO.
> The original Wednesday GA started on the south side of city hall with the solar stage. After it was overthrown, the facilitators, for a while, reconvened their GA on north stairs before returning to the open mike crowd on the south stairs in the spirit of unity.


http://wlcentral.org/node/2314


----------



## love detective (Oct 28, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Rubbish. I have not slept out one night, yet have participated and been heard in more than 10 GA over the last 2 weeks. This is as 'insular' as the people who do not particpate make it.
> 
> You do not need to sleep out. Your critiscisms are best voiced and heard at the GA's. No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism, your attempt to paint a picture of that is shameful tbh.



well this was the response i got when i suggested that inviting the likes of shami/liberty to be involved is probably not the best idea

fairly indignant and raging i thought


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> Your post actually supports my "accusation", confirming that the vast majority of the effort is being put into setting up and maintaining the camp. That rather than using it as a springboard to conduct actions and achieve the small victories that a number of us have talked about the focus is now on simply ensuring the camp remains where it is.



NO it doesn't! It suggests that you haven't thought out how much time and energy goes into setting up and maintaining a camp (now 2) under the conditions these people have and then have time to support everything they want to, in the way they want to!

Small victories? Like what? Have you been down there to either camp? There have been _small_ victories galore.

St Paul's is the only camp who is worried about eviction at this time, yes there is a lot of focus on that as present but for me...there is a lot of value in the process/ride/adventure/learning of it all. I am left wondering what you expect them to have achieved, by now, two weeks into it. Also, why you haven't gotten involved/contributed to the success you are impying they should have had already.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 28, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Small victories? Like what? Have you been down there too either camp? There have been small victories galore.


Then I'll repeat my request for you to list some of them.


----------



## love detective (Oct 28, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> No indignation, no rage, just my opinion.
> I have not given my opinion of shami or liberty getting involved so don't misrepresent me or my posts. Ta..



I was talking about the response of someone telling me to fuck off for expressing concern about inviting the recuperating/recuperated types of liberty along

so telling someone to fuck off for expressing an opinion, in your opinion does not demonstrate a certain amount of rage or indignancy (is that a word?) no?


----------



## love detective (Oct 28, 2011)

i see you edited your post after i quoted/replied to it


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> *Then I'll repeat my request for you* to list some of them.



...and I shall repeat mine ...go down there, engage, observe, volunteer, get involved and witness them for yourself.


----------



## friedaweed (Oct 29, 2011)

Where's Whally....oops I mean Will??


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> i see you edited your post after i quoted/replied to it



Only because I didn't realise you had hyperlinked to a particular post etc when I first typed that out above. I thought you were referring to me/my posts, then I noticed the link under the word 'this' and deleted my post accordingly.


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

so, in light of that, do you see my original point?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> so, in light of that, do you see my original point?



Erm, this _is_ Urban, people tell eachother to fuck off all the time.

I personally try to save that for 'special' circumstances but other people throw it about more liberally, as is their choice.

I understand you didn't like to be told to 'fuck off', it's dismissive and rejecting...I don't however see it as 'indignance and rage' in the way you have suggested.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> ...and I shall repeat mine ...go down there, engage, observe, volunteer, get involved and witness them for yourself.


I don't live in the UK. So again I ask what victories have been achieved?


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Erm, this _is_ Urban, people tell eachother to fuck off all the time.
> 
> I personally try to save that for 'special' circumstances but other people throw it about more liberally, as is their choice.
> 
> I understand you didn't like to be told to 'fuck off', it's dismissive and rejecting...I don't however see it as 'indignance and rage' in the way you have suggested.


you miss the point - i don't mind being told to fuck off - but the point was you made a statement that:-

_No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism_

I then gave an example of someone being indignant and raging because of a criticism


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> you miss the point - i don't mind being told to fuck off - but the point was you made a statement that:-


I don't think so.



> _No one is indignant or raging because of critiscism_
> 
> I then gave an example of someone being indignant and raging because of a criticism



...some might say you are 'indignant and raging' because of critiscism now.


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

eh?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> eh?



You were told to fuck off. You were critiscised because were finding fault with others.

You could be accused of being 'indignant and raging' now because you were told to fuck off and were critiscised earlier in the thread.


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

do you have any idea how you are coming across in these verbal gymnastics to backtrack and defend something that you previously claimed wasn't happening?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> do you have any idea how you are coming across in these verbal gymnastics to backtrack and defend something that you previously claimed wasn't happening?



Heh! 

Do you have any idea how wounded and upset you sound?

I posted a shout out for people who are interested to go and support the camps.

I am not responsible for you getting told to 'fuck off' nor do I see that as 'indignation and rage' ( as explained, this being urban and all), in short I think you are being overly dramatic, although, I do understand that being told to 'fuck off' is dismissive and rejecting. There are no verbal gymnastics, I have been clear and honest with you.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 29, 2011)

ld doesn't seem like he's being indignant and raging tbh, in fact hes being v polite as far as i can see, and i frequently disagree with what he says and how he says it!

i'm sad to hear that people think the occupy london thing is becoming insular etc as well, because it was really positive to see how they linked up with the electricians and other stuff at the beginning ... hopefully this will change with the Nov 30 stuff and some of the major protests coming up? ld did you go to any of the camps and what were your impressions?


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Heh!
> 
> Do you have any idea how wounded and upset you sound?
> 
> ...


why you do you think I sound (or indeed am) wounded or upset because I pointed out to you something that is happening that you claimed isn't happening


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> ld doesn't seem like he's being indignant and raging tbh, in fact hes being v polite as far as i can see, and i frequently disagree with what he says and how he says it!


 I didn't say he wasn't being polite FW. In my world, people don't have to be rude to be 'indignant and raging' though, he is clearly upset at being sworn at, I understand, as I have said already. I don't think that him getting told to fuck off on urban of all places is evidence of 'indignation an rage' either.



> *i'm sad to hear that people think the occupy london thing is becoming insular etc as well,* because it was really positive to see how they linked up with the electricians and other stuff at the beginning ... hopefully this will change with the Nov 30 stuff and some of the major protests coming up? ld did you go to any of the camps and what were your impressions?



How do they know though, if they haven't been and spent time there, been involved etc?

I have been numerous times to both camps. I am back there (at both) on Sunday. I have posted some things already and will post more in answer to your questions tomorrow if that's okay. I am cream crackered just now and off to bed.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> why you do you think I sound (or indeed am) wounded or upset because I pointed out to you something that is happening that you claimed isn't happening



Because you posted this:



> (yet any measured/reflective criticism of if is met with howls of indignant rage because those criticising it don't have the means or ability to spend 14 nights on the trot in a tent in central london)



....a generalised comment, as if the whole world is attacking you because you criticised or were seen to be critical of something you haven't engaged in properly.

It is unfair and irrational to call the movement 'insular' because a poster on Urban told you to 'fuck off'.

I am in the habit of trying things out for myself (where possible) before I make up my mind fully, I am asking you to do the same here. Nothing more.


----------



## Sue (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I didn't say he wasn't being polite FW. In my world, people don't have to be rude to be 'indignant and raging' though, he is clearly upset at being sworn at, I understand, as I have said already. I don't think that him getting told to fuck off on urban of all places is evidence of 'indignation an rage' either.
> 
> How do they know though, if they haven't been and spent time there, been involved etc?
> 
> I have been numerous times to both camps. I am back there (at both) on Sunday. I have posted some things already and will post more in answer to your questions tomorrow if that's okay. I am cream crackered just now and off to bed.



I don't think love detective is upset at being sworn at. I suspect it's more that he finds it a bit pathetic that you're contradicting yourself and won't admit to it. (And are being quite patronising about about it too.)

Anyway, I've not been to the camp thing, though I did go past it on the bus, mainly because I really have no idea what the point of it is.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> I don't live in the UK. So again I ask what victories have been achieved?



Just seen this....

Anyway...I'm off to bed...I will answer for you tomorrow.

Please answer this:



> I am left wondering what you expect them to have achieved, by now, two weeks into it?


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Because you posted this:
> 
> ....a generalised comment, as if the whole world is attacking you because you criticised or were seen to be critical of something you haven't engaged in properly.
> 
> ...



jesus fuck, words fail

sorry but i can't engage with either of your two posts above - completely mixed up and verging on hatstand

how on earth do you get the idea that my thoughts about the thing being insular are derived from someone telling me to fuck off on a message board?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

Sue said:


> I don't think love detective is upset at being sworn at. I suspect it's more that he finds it a bit pathetic that you're contradicting yourself and won't admit to it. (And are being quite patronising about about it too.)


I don't think I am contradicticing myself Sue. I have been upfront and honest about what I think...the fact you have felt the need to jump in and imply I am being 'pathetic' is pretty patronising tbf...pot, kettle and all that. 



> Anyway, I've not been to the camp thing, though I did go past it on the bus, mainly because I really have no idea what the point of it is.


 ...... get off the bus and ask someone? Read up online?


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> jesus fuck, words fail
> 
> sorry but i can't engage with either of your two posts above - completely mixed up and verging on hatstand
> 
> how on earth do you get the idea that my thoughts about the thing being insular are derived from someone telling me to fuck off on a message board?



Perhaps because you don't seem to understand that some people disagree with you that Liberty should be allowed to get involved and are using the example of someone telling you to fuck off on this thread (on Urban, of all places) as evidence of 'indignation and rage'... 

Night!


----------



## Sue (Oct 29, 2011)

Oh my... And I thought bulletin boards were all about people feeling the need to 'jump in'.

Ask someone what they think they've achieved/are trying to achieve? You've been down there however many times and still don't seem to be able to answer the 'what they've achieved' bit so not holding out much hope that I'd fare any better asking some random person down there.


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Perhaps because you don't seem to understand that some people disagree with you that Liberty should be allowed to get involved and are using the example of someone telling you to fuck off on this thread (on Urban, of all places) as evidence of 'indignation and rage'...
> 
> Night!


no wonder the 99% don't want anything to do with your self indulgent camp - smug, patronising, middle class wankers


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 29, 2011)




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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> no wonder the 99% don't want anything to do with your self indulgent camp - smug, patronising, middle class wankers



one major positive globally imo has been the integration of people from various 'stratas of society' together with positive energy and connecting together... heaps of local campaigns and activists are feeling re-invigorated...
most of the global streetfolk I know have never felt safer for ages... there are small victories being won all the time....
perhaps if one was to get involved locally somewhere they might see this... some #occupy cities are idiots sometimes but nevertheless they are our idiots!!
Arab Spring, American Fall.... we live in interesting times...
thanks for the reportbacks rutita1, feck the begrudgers....


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## sptme (Oct 29, 2011)

This is why there will never be a revolution in Britain. Too many cynical know-it-alls sniping from the sidelines. The occupy movement is what we have here, now. Its what we have to work with, now. It works on a system of direct democracy so if you don't like the direction its taking you can get involved argue and persuade them.

so are you gonna get involved, offer your energy, enthusiasm and contructive critisism to try to make it a better more effective movement
or
do nothing but be negative and cynical while wondering why the left in Britain is in such a terrible state and never seems to achieve anything.


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 29, 2011)

never say never... the yanks are buzzin about a 'general strike' 2 nov just being mentioned in mainstream media.... never been one since just after ww2.... feck if #occupy managed to do it soon though??? n globally... wow!


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 29, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> _never say never_... the yanks are buzzin about a 'general strike' 2 nov just being mentioned in mainstream media.... _*never*_ been one since just after ww2.... feck if #occupy managed to do it soon though??? n globally... wow!



soz......


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## gunneradt (Oct 29, 2011)

ddraig said:


> granuiad 8 min video with godbothering, closed meeting in CoL and waggly hands
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2011/oct/28/occupy-london-occupy-movement?



it's a veritable freak show- the waving of hands in the air is hilarious!!


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## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> it's a veritable freak show


you must find it like looking in the mirror then


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> i'm sad to hear that people think the occupy london thing is becoming insular etc as well, because it was really positive to see how they linked up with the electricians and other stuff at the beginning ... hopefully this will change with the Nov 30 stuff and some of the major protests coming up? ld did you go to any of the camps and what were your impressions?



Morning  ...Gonna answer you a bit more fully now FW.

The other stuff has not stopped, links are still being made, the outreach teams at both camps are actively contacting local organisations/community groups/centres etc and finding out how they can take the 'occupy' message/support/energy into local neighbourhoods etc.

For example; they are willing to help local communities in ways that are needed, whether that be to support a particualar campaign, right down to redecorating a community hall even..I think this is an important thing to be doing, and have decided to help out where possible with this outreach stuff. The cuts we have all talked about for so long will be biting even harder in the coming months....there will be a lack, the occupy camps want to do what they can to fill it.

The educational input is very interesting too. People are running lectures and/or offering to do so everyday. The 'academic' support is growing, many teachers, lecturers, students etc are visiting, actively engaging and planning to organise things in there colleges/universities.

Yes a lot of current attention is being focused towards the media shitstorm at St Pauls, that doesn't mean however that other things are not happening at the same time.

The camps are gaining lots of support and attention from the 'average' person on the street too...every day there are people wandering in during their lunch hour or after work for a chat and/or to drop of donations of food/essentials. They are also actively making suggestions also.

I hear more and more people on the street/bus/train etc talking about the occupy protest each day....whether they agree/understand fully or not, they are engaging with it.

Last night for example 3 young lads (14) came along. They asked me what was going on, I invited them in and introduced them to some of the info team, it turns out that the lads had came over from south london specifically to visit the camp and find out a few things and to talk about what is going on more generally with regard government policy/the cuts/the bankers etc. I thought it was amazing that they thought the the occupy camp would be a place where they could find answers and/or that at least people woulf discuss these things with them there.

Another visitor last night. An Egyptian corporate lawyer, said he was in Tahir Square, wanted to discuss the aims of the movement and offer suggestions to be put before the GA etc...

A few small examples of the little, yet significant things that happen daily.If you speak to anyone else that has visited the camps/is camping on either one etc you will hear of thousands of other instances of such things happening...all of those things are 'victories'.

All I ask is that people check out the camps themselves instead of sniping from the sidelines. If anyone thinks the Occupy movement is missing a trick, go down there and let them know, chances are someone/others will agree. The camps are not a closed cliquey group...they are open to all who want to engage, the residents and participators in the GAs are pretty fluid and ever changing. Everyone is welcome! This is the message the camps has been sending out from the very start, nothing has changed on this point.

I think the focus on 'waggly hands' is a deflection technique...a way of dismissing what is going on and justifying personal non-involvement.

I understand that not everyone can sleep out etc...there are multiple opportunities to participate on other levels/in different ways however.

Also, as you rightly pointed out, there are demos/protests coming up which the Occupiers will of course also be involved in.


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> They are willing to help local communities in ways that are needed, whether that be to support a particualar campaign, *right down to redecorating a community hall even*..



Sounds like the 'Big Society' in action, that should please Cameron.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Sounds like the 'Big Society' in action, that should please Cameron.



 Heh! However, if he gets all smug about it...I will remind him that groups/people have been doing this kind of outreach work for decades. He can't take an inch of credit for it!


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## Blagsta (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Heh! However, if he gets all smug about it...I will remind him that groups/people have been doing this kind of outreach work for decades. He can't take an inch of credit for it!


Not exactly radical change is it?


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Not exactly radical change is it?



I think things have a process and can take time to have impact that is 'visible'. I also value the less tangible impact of the process itself.

What radical change would you like to see at this point, 2 weeks into the occupation?

How are you going to get involved and make those changes happen?


----------



## smokedout (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Morning  ...Gonna answer you a bit more fully now FW.
> 
> The other stuff has not stopped, links are still being made, the outreach teams at both camps are actively contacting local organisations/community groups/centres etc and finding out how they can take the 'occupy' message/support/energy into local neighbourhoods etc.
> 
> ...



so there haven't been any actual victories as yet



> The camps are gaining lots of support and attention from the 'average' person on the street too...every day there are people wandering in during their lunch hour or after work for a chat and/or to drop of donations of food/essentials. They are also actively making suggestions also.



the 'average' person in the street in EC1 is not the average person in the street.  how many bin men are down there?



> A few small examples of the little, yet significant things that happen daily.If you speak to anyone else that has visited the camps/is camping on either one etc you will hear of thousands of other instances of such things happening...all of those things are 'victories'.



no they aren't, they are conversations.



> All I ask is that people check out the camps themselves instead of sniping from the sidelines. If anyone thinks the Occupy movement is missing a trick, go down there and let them know, chances are someone/others will agree. The camps are not a closed cliquey group...they are open to all who want to engage, the residents and participators in the GAs are pretty fluid and ever changing. Everyone is welcome! This is message the camps has been sending out from the very start, nothing has changed on this point.
> 
> I think the focus on 'waggly hands' is a deflection technique...a way of dismissing what is going on and justifying personal non-involvement.



no they aren't.  they are a symbol.  this is not for you, you wont understand this.  stay away.



> Also, as you rightly pointed out, there are demos/protests coming up which the Occupiers will of course also be involved in.



that's what worries me.  what response will there be from the camp if nov 9th turns violent?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so there haven't been any actual victories as yet


 In your opinion.



> the 'average' person in the street in EC1 is not the average person in the street. how many bin men are down there?



I haven't spoken to any bin men myself but labourers and building site staff yes. At least two are resident on site for example.



> no they aren't, they are conversations.
> 
> no they aren't. they are a symbol. this is not for you, you wont understand this. stay away.



Again. This is your opinion. The hand signals used in meetings have a function. If people think that the hand signals mean 'stay away' I suggest that those people are misunderstanding the function of the hand signals and being a bit precious.



> that's what worries me. what response will there be from the camp if nov 9th turns violent?


What worries you?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I think things have a process and can take time to have impact that is 'visible'. I also value the less tangible impact of the process itself.
> 
> What radical change would you like to see at this point, 2 weeks into the occupation?
> 
> How are you going to get involved and make those changes happen?



How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?



Great idea! Come down/email the occupiers and put it to the GA? There is a direct Action working group for the camps. This is the kind of thing they would be organising.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Again. This is your opinion. The hand signals used in meetings have a function. If people think that the hand signals mean 'stay away' I suggest that those people are misunderstanding the function of the hand signals and being a bit precious.



stay away.  you don't understand.  it's not for you.



> What worries you?



who's side you'll be on


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 29, 2011)

To be honest I'm still waiting for them to actually try and occupy the London Stock Exchange before anything they do anything else. I think it's dis-ingenuous to call your movement Occupy London Stock Exchange when you have no intention of doing anything of the sort. Whilst they've been camping out at St.Pauls, the FTSE has had it's strongest rally since 1974, so it's not as if the capitalist class is trembling with fear at what they're doing. Whilst I wish them no harm, and recognise there's a lot of good stuff coming out of it too, but lets be frank at times the uk version of this Occupy movement has been guilty of indugling in sub-UKuncut, post-political, "beyond left and right" drivel of the worst kind. And that's without even getting into all the Conspiraloonies and Freemen of the Land who are involved in it for some reason.

Sorry if that seems like a harsh thing to say, but if we can't make criticisms of this then it's just bound to keep repeating the same mistakes.And yes I have been down there myself, although staying there would be impossible when you work 40 hours a week 300 miles away.


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## Blagsta (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Great idea! Come down/email the occupiers and put it to the GA? There is a direct Action working group for the camps. This is the kind of thing they would be organising.


I live in Birmingham. I've been suggesting stuff like this, they're not interested.


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## gunneradt (Oct 29, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you must find it like looking in the mirror then



an excellent riposte


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Oct 29, 2011)

Delroy Booth said:


> Whilst they've been camping out at St.Pauls, the FTSE has had it's strongest rally since 1974, so it's not as if the capitalist class is trembling with fear at what they're doing. .



Rallies in the context of vertiginous swoops up and down while everyone, everywhere panics that the sovereign debt crisis will precipitate another credit squeeze, are not a sign of a relaxed capitalist class.

Agree with you that the campers are utterly without relevance, though.


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> In your opinion....this is your opinion.....If people think that......I suggest that those people are misunderstanding.....being a bit precious..etc..



so the opinions, impressions, understandings and reactions of the '99%' are to be written off by those in the camp while simultaneously maintaining that they are representative of them

Somehow only those who can physically attend a central london event get even half a chance of their criticism being taken seriously - do you realise how elitist this makes the whole thing look to the 99%?

all criticism is deflected back as a criticism of those criticising. Be told to fuck off for expressing an opinion and it's not them but you who is apparently being indignant and filled with rage, be patronised by someone at the camp and point this out and then get accused of being patronising for doing so


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## magneze (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> well this was the response i got when i suggested that inviting the likes of shami/liberty to be involved is probably not the best idea
> 
> fairly indignant and raging i thought


Do you realise that posting "jesus fuck" on here is not the same as raising a point on site at the camp?


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## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

so yet again it's reinforced, you can't make any comment on the camp unless you do so while physically attending it?

_'we are the 0.001%'_


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## frogwoman (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> so yet again it's reinforced, you can't make any comment on the camp unless you do so while physically attending it?
> 
> _'we are the 0.001%'_



LD, did you/anyone you know go to the camp yourself? what were your/their impressions if so? all this is a real shame, because it could have been a really good opportunity.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> so yet again it's reinforced, you can't make any comment on the camp unless you do so while physically attending it?
> 
> _we are the 0.001%_



This is one of the things that pisses me off, I'd love to be able to go down there every day and make my points, try and influence and participate, but I just fucking _can't_ and i feel like people such as myself are excluded from this movement because we can't physically sit there in a tent for a fortnight. I mean I'm young with no kids, my major commitment is work, and I can't get down there for more than one afternoon, imagine what it must be like for a single mother, for example? Isn't there some way people who are broadly sympathetic to the protest, but who can't be there 24/7, can have their views heard? Likewise, is there some way those who have _constructive_ criticisms to make can do so without getting the retort of "well just come on down here and put it too the general assembly" because although it's a nice though, for a lot of people it's just not possible!


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## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> LD, did you/anyone you know go to the camp yourself? what were your/their impressions if so? all this is a real shame, because it could have been a really good opportunity.



i went along briefly on the Monday after the initial weekend and have to admit I had a pre-conceived idea as to what it would be like and how it would evolve - most of them were reinforced pretty much immediately on arrival - it seemed fanciful & self-indulgent even then to me (although i'm highly skeptical I held off any external criticism of it until now, as felt I should at least give it some time to see how the thing evolved)

In defence people may say well there are links being built up with anti-cuts groups in London, but from what I can see it's the same people linking up with themselves just under different formal labels and then presenting this externally as something happening which isn't really

In short, I felt alienated by the whole thing, like I do with most of these climate camp type things and the left in general - maybe it's just me, but maybe it's them also


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## frogwoman (Oct 29, 2011)

cheers. i know what you mean tbh, especially with the climate camp type stuff.


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## Belushi (Oct 29, 2011)

That was my impression when I briefly dropped by St Pauls.  I'm still supportive overall but my doubts about the whole thing are growing. I'll try and go again this week.


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## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2011)

Belushi said:


> That was my impression when I briefly dropped by St Pauls. I'm still supportive overall but my doubts about the whole thing are growing. I'll try and go again this week.


...and magnify those doubts a number of times for whats happening elsewhere in the country...


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## Citizen66 (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm not sure why everyone is being so down on it. It's not like protest of the normal variety ever achieves anything and plenty on here attend those.


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## Maggot (Oct 29, 2011)

smokedout said:


> the 'average' person in the street in EC1 is not the average person in the street. how many bin men are down there?




It's not a legitimate protest unless you've got a few bin men.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 29, 2011)

smokedout said:


> the 'average' person in the street in EC1 is not the average person in the street.  how many bin men are down there?



I'm sure the tourists don't all consist of above average beings.


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## smokedout (Oct 29, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not sure why everyone is being so down on it. It's not like protest of the normal variety ever achieves anything and plenty on here attend those.



it's not about being down on it.  we're constantly being asked to come down, get involved etc.  people are just asking why, what relevance does it have to our lives, why is it so significant

to me it looks like a mixture of climate campers and democracy village hippies, a liberal elite and some hippy drop outs.  i hope they have lots of fun.  theyll get massacred by the press if they are still there on rememberence sunday so they should enjoy it whilst it lasts.


----------



## magneze (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> so yet again it's reinforced, you can't make any comment on the camp unless you do so while physically attending it?
> 
> _'we are the 0.001%'_


Not really, no. I've not been down yet either. But I found it a bit weird that you thought that posting "jesus fuck" on a bulletin board that is unrelated to the camp apart from a few posters was engaging with the occupation.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 29, 2011)

magneze said:


> Not really, no. I've not been down yet either. But I found it a bit weird that you thought that posting "jesus fuck" on a bulletin board that is unrelated to the camp apart from a few posters was engaging with the occupation.



They proclaim that they are representing us so someone who hasn't been anywhere near the camps opinion is just as valid as someone who sleeps there every night imho.


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## magneze (Oct 29, 2011)

Belushi said:


> They proclaim that they are representing us someone who hasn't been anywhere near the camps opinion is just as valid as someone who sleeps there every night imho.


Sure, but my point is that it might be worth engaging with the people at the camp over this stuff or posting on their website. Posting on here, whilst entertaining, isn't actually engaging with the occupation. To post on here saying "jesus fuck" then getting a bad response (omg, someone was rude to me on the internet after I swore), then tarring the occupy movement with being not open is just silly. I've read lots of lovedetective's posts and learn quite a bit from them but they must realise that this position looks a bit odd.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 29, 2011)

> Any experienced activist can tell tales of trying to unravel the Gordian Knot of the relationships among mass organizing, sectarianism, left cadre organizations, and ultra-leftism. To describe cadre-based sectarian ultra-leftists as tedious and disruptive is a charitable understatement. Wait! Grab hold of that last sentence and examine it.
> 
> Sectarianism, cadre groups, and ultra-leftism are three separate issues. Those successful at juggling these tendencies in a real organizing campaign usually start by understanding that there are differences among ideological tendencies and the people who marry them, and there are differences between structures and styles. Rather than lumping everything and everyone together in a prejudiced and stereotypic way, lets unpack the box.


http://chipberlet.blogspot.com/2011/06/abstaining-from-bad-sects.html


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## gunneradt (Oct 29, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm sure the tourists don't all consist of above average beings.



EC1 isn't in the square mile (or most of it isnt anyway) - its EC2, 3 and 4


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## Citizen66 (Oct 29, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> EC1 isn't in the square mile (or most of it isnt anyway) - its EC2, 3 and 4



I was referring to tourists at st Pauls. Which is what I assumed smoked out was referring to.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 29, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> http://chipberlet.blogspot.com/2011/06/abstaining-from-bad-sects.html



the problem with that article is that he never says clearly what he's talking about and he confuses a lot of different things. the people who stand up at meetings and read from long leaflets are almost certainly completely different people from those who deliberately get in fights with coppers. he talks about cadre organisations etc, by which he says he means leninist groups, but do the people involved in attacking police etc (who he describes as "ultra-left" and lumps in with spart-type people) could they even be seen in such a manner? And his description about "behaving in ways that bear no relation to reality" - what does that mean? What does it apply to?

Also, re: cadre organisations, among one of the criticisms that people are making on this thread are that the occupy movement has no demands, that its unspoken (ie non-formalised, but still present) power structures lead to a lack of accountability etc. I don't really see how it is relevant to what we're talking about tbh (and i thought it was shit)


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 29, 2011)

Just got this from a fb friend:

*Occupy Brighton have invited Mike Weatherley, Conservative MP for Hove - motivator of the anti-squatting bill, and Sussex Police to attend their General Assembly this Saturday. Apparently they too are part of the 99%.*


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> one of the criticisms that people are making on this thread are that the occupy movement has no demands, that its unspoken (ie non-formalised, but still present) power structures lead to a lack of accountability etc.



Occupy Wall Street published demands. OccupyLSX published demands. Not sure why people on this thread claim no demands have been made.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Just got this from a fb friend:
> 
> *Occupy Brighton have invited Mike Weatherley, Conservative MP for Hove - motivator of the anti-squatting bill, and Sussex Police to attend their General Assembly this Saturday. Apparently they too are part of the 99%.*



Invited in what respect? To sit around the campfire and munch on mung beans or to be bombarded with rotten tomatoes?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Oct 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Just got this from a fb friend:
> 
> *Occupy Brighton have invited Mike Weatherley, Conservative MP for Hove - motivator of the anti-squatting bill, and Sussex Police to attend their General Assembly this Saturday. Apparently they too are part of the 99%.*


Meaty dialogue from anti-anti-squatting bill peeps with TPTB. Should make for an interesting livestream.


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## Citizen66 (Oct 29, 2011)

Double post.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 29, 2011)

Triple post.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

smokedout said:


> who's side you'll be on



Until you explain what the 'sides' are to choose from, I have no way of imagining an answer to your question.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

So instead of replying to other posts individually I am just gonna say this....

I will be at the daytime GA at St Paul's tomorrow and later at FS.

Please post your suggestions and/or things you would like brought to their attention.

Please keep them brief and to the point. I am not planning on standing up and reading out your posts.  I will either raise _points_/suggestions to the GA or specifically to the appropriate working groups.

I will make a list of points to raise.

I _do_ understand not everyone can attend meetings or the camps. So to show that I understand I will do this. 

I think doing this will also give me a greater understanding of where some people on this thread feel the camps should have evolved to by now.

*Please quote and add to this list below:*

*1: How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure? *

*2: How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*


----------



## treelover (Oct 29, 2011)

can they make the live stream more effective, too many people just waffling, sometimes drunk, and more effective communication with the wider supporters, etc...

maybe people who are sympathetic, particualalry those miles away, disabled and not mobile, etc could have say 3 minute videos of their views broadcast at GA's...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

*Please quote and add to this list below:*

*1: How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure? *

*2: How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*

*3. Can the livestream be improved?*


----------



## treelover (Oct 29, 2011)

and this: could those who have difficulties getting to the camp, for many reasons have say 3 minute videos of their views/ideas broadcast at GA's, etc....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ummon-same-fury-for-fat-cats-115875-23522397/

btw, excellent editorial in the Daily Mirror, read by milllions.....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

treelover said:


> and this: could those who have difficulties getting to the camp, for many reasons have say 3 minute videos of their views/ideas broadcast at GA's, etc....



To be honest the only people I have seen speak for 3 minutes or more is the working groups feedback team, usually second on the agenda of the GA's.

There is the shout out section at the end of each meeting but I think 3 minutes is too long per vid.

Maybe I could suggest they arrange a meeting each week to specifically air/watch videos/read out emails that people can send in. I'd certainly like to see them. I think the reflection would be great and certainly raise issues for discussion/action. What do you think?


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> *Please quote and add to this list below:*
> 
> *1: How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure? *
> 
> ...



I was just down there earlier and given the problems (2) is addressing it is quite difficult to fit in to the process as someone who just turns up from time to time - I suspect you might not be able to. Anyway the points I would make at the moment would be

4. The Liberty mediation is an attempt to end the confrontation between the occupation and St Pauls/The City of London. This confrontation is one of the most interesting things about the occupation at the moment. You disagree with those in power. Get used to confrontation. Liberty are an establishment organisation who implicitly support the status quo and so see the ending of confrontation as a good thing. You shouldn't. The best thing to do would be to ignore Liberty.

5. There is a bureacratisation of the camp that has happened over the last few weeks. I think some of it is because certain key people are actually trained in administrative/managerial environments. I suspect they don't realise they are producing a level of bureaucracy that is frankly a bit silly. It would be good practice for broader organisation if it were replicable on a larger scale but I don't think it is. So it is a bit of a misdirection of energy. It might be better to take the focus off the formal processes and put energy just into talking to people and making links with those who they can fight with long term.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

> *4. The Liberty mediation is an attempt to end the confrontation between the occupation and St Pauls/The City of London. This confrontation is one of the most interesting things about the occupation at the moment. You disagree with those in power. Get used to confrontation. Liberty are an establishment organisation who implicitly support the status quo and so see the ending of confrontation as a good thing. You shouldn't. The best thing to do would be to ignore Liberty.*
> 
> * 5. There is a bureacratisation of the camp that has happened over the last few weeks. I think some of it is because certain key people are actually trained in administrative/managerial environments. I suspect they don't realise they are producing a level of bureaucracy that is frankly a bit silly. It would be good practice for broader organisation if it were replicable on a larger scale but I don't think it is. So it is a bit of a misdirection of energy. It might be better to take the focus off the formal processes and put energy just into talking to people and making links with those who they can fight with long term. *



Please summarise these points a bit more BA. Please make them specific suggestions or questions. They are valid points but need redacting! I will not be 'preaching' on anyone's behalf.


----------



## treelover (Oct 29, 2011)

more communiques, on the big current issues such as Liam Fox/lobbying, directors pay, etc...

these will resonate with the wide public...


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 29, 2011)

1. Liberty are establishment liberal hacks who want to negotiate surrender on any terms- are you willing to have your momentum hamstrung by such people?

2 You've let the mouthy managerial dictate the flow- perhaps sort that out a bit as it is structure over substance

[just redacting BA's points there. feel free to call me a twat if I've misrepresented what you mean fella]
For my ownself I'd like you to ask them how they consider gaining union support and if they recognize that the struggle agaist cuts and job losses opposed by the unions are relevant to the cause of the 99%


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

So far:

*Please quote and add to this list below:*

*1: How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure? *

*2: How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*

*3: Can the livestream be improved?*

*4: How does the occupation  consider gaining union support?*

*5: Does the occupation recognise that the struggle against cuts and job losses opposed by the unions are relevant to the cause of the 99?*

Awaiting BA redaction or agreement to dc's redaction on two points.*
*


----------



## Corax (Oct 29, 2011)

One thing it has achieved is to move some of the big arguments into 'the national debate'.  It's being talked about.

Unfortunately, I think the overriding noise so far is _'bloody protesters, blocking the bloody thoroughfare, grumblegrumblegrumble'._


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> So far:
> 
> *Please quote and add to this list below:*
> 
> ...



6: How do we engage and involve our street/homeless community on a level parity and use this campaign to highlight blatant poverty issues*..

*( to this end I believe some of our Whad n Wham crews are engaged in securing 'GA meeting/university slots etc in London)


----------



## Corax (Oct 29, 2011)

Corax said:


> One thing it has achieved is to move some of the big arguments into 'the national debate'. It's being talked about.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think the overriding noise so far is _'bloody protesters, blocking the bloody thoroughfare, grumblegrumblegrumble'._


On this point, maybe

*7. How can the media attention on the camps be used to swing the focus on to the reasons for the protest rather than the protest itself?*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

So far:

*Please quote and add to this list below:*

*1. How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure? *

*2. How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*

*3. Can the livestream be improved?*

*4. How does the occupation consider gaining union support?*

*5. Does the occupation recognise that the struggle against cuts and job losses opposed by the unions are relevant to the cause of the 99?*

*6. How do we engage and involve our street/homeless community on a level parity and use this campaign to highlight blatant poverty issues?*

*7. How can the media attention on the camps be used to swing the focus on to the reasons for the protest rather than the protest itself?*


 Awaiting BA redaction or agreement to dc's redaction on two points.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 29, 2011)

Corax said:


> One thing it has achieved is to move some of the big arguments into 'the national debate'. It's being talked about.
> 
> Unfortunately, I think the overriding noise so far is _'bloody protesters, blocking the bloody thoroughfare, grumblegrumblegrumble'._


 
Because it isn't coalescing ito any kind of concrete line as evidenced so far- no I haven't been there and yes I do wish them all power to their arms- but just being there is goig to have to become more than just being there PDQ else they'll become a tolerated irrelevance or a forcibly cleared footnote in history.

Like it or not the apolitical stance of 'why won't guvnor behave' needs to become something more. I'm only saying this as an observer from THE INTERNETS but I do worry that this is dominated by people who still believe they'll be listened to if they just chant loudly enough and get the bad capitlists to stop being bad.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, I'm hoping to be convinced otherwise- but at the moment it all seems a bit...gesture. If that makes any sense.


----------



## Corax (Oct 29, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Because it isn't coalescing ito any kind of concrete line as evidenced so far- no I haven't been there and yes I do wish them all power to their arms- but just being there is goig to have to become more than just being there PDQ else they'll become a tolerated irrelevance or a forcibly cleared footnote in history.
> 
> Like it or not the apolitical stance of 'why won't guvnor behave' needs to become something more. I'm only saying this as an observer from THE INTERNETS but I do worry that this is dominated by people who still believe they'll be listened to if they just chant loudly enough and get the bad capitlists to stop being bad.
> 
> I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, I'm hoping to be convinced otherwise- but at the moment it all seems a bit...gesture. If that makes any sense.


I know you don't like 'Likes', so I'll say that that articulates my gut feelings about it more coherently than I would have done myself.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

Lots of suggestion for temporary blockades and permenant direct actions at specific places in London at the GA being livestreamed right now.

Monday, support the squatting protest...


----------



## ddraig (Oct 29, 2011)

can u post a link please?
tis just people in a caff on http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx
and some speculation about a 'reggae artist' coming on


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

ddraig said:


> can u post a link please?
> tis just people in a caff on http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx
> and some speculation about a 'reggae artist' coming on



Yeah..bloody thing has gone down again...


----------



## ddraig (Oct 29, 2011)

working now and sound ok


----------



## love detective (Oct 29, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Lots of suggestion for temporary blockades and permenant direct actions at specific places in London at the GA being livestreamed right now.



this may sound like the complete opposite of my criticism from yesterday - but you should be careful about discussing this kind of thing (especially in any kind of detail, specifics etc..) in large public open meetings


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> this may sound like the complete opposite of my criticism from yesterday - but you should be careful about discussing this kind of thing (especially in any kind of detail, specifics etc..) in large public open meetings



Yeah, that is true, that's why no targets were mentioned in the GA. Just the fact that they should be/are being planned.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

Live stream back up...doing shout outs now/open mic.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

Roots manuva interviewed on live stream?  Not quite a concert.


----------



## Corax (Oct 29, 2011)

It'd daytime on the livestream thing.  

Am I taking "live" too literally?


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 29, 2011)

Corax said:


> It'd daytime on the livestream thing.
> 
> Am I taking "live" too literally?



They are rolling back the darkness of real life!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2011)

Corax said:


> It'd daytime on the livestream thing.
> 
> Am I taking "live" too literally?



Heh! Must be a vid from earlier in the day.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

I was down there on Saturday. Saw some of the midday GA.

The tech people were asking for support for the Livestream. Anyone who can offer 3G dongles or BT spot. Its getting expensive to do Livestream.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

As for the GA on SA midday. Ive read the last two pages posts. I can see why some posters are skeptical. However the atmosphere at the GA was good.

All things considered to have two occupations in the centre of The City is something in itself.

I can admire the time and energy thats been put into keeping the OLs going.

For me when I cycle around the City its good to see them there. Its been pissing me off cycling around the City recently. Everythings hunky-dory in The City. No cuts there. It the rest of us who are going to suffer.


----------



## Corax (Oct 30, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I was done there on Saturday.


Fake rolex?


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

Corax said:


> Fake rolex?



Sorry do u mean my Avatar? Its a gold ring.


----------



## Corax (Oct 30, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Sorry do u mean my Avatar? Its a gold ring.


No, I was just being _hilarious_ about your minor typo Gramsci. Ignore me. I try to.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

Couple of shots of GA on Sat. During the meeting a Wedding was on the steps. The meeting stopped to wish the newly married best wishes and everyone at meeting applauded them. A nice touch I thought. Looked to me that the wedding party appreciated the good humoured response of Occupiers.


----------



## treelover (Oct 30, 2011)

Would i be correct in surmising there are a fair few ex Greenham Common women at OLSX?


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 30, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> 1. Liberty are establishment liberal hacks who want to negotiate surrender on any terms- are you willing to have your momentum hamstrung by such people?
> 
> 2 You've let the mouthy managerial dictate the flow- perhaps sort that out a bit as it is structure over substance
> 
> ...


You're not misrepresenting what I mean but there is a slight lack of tact in those points 

A summary:

Liberty want to end the confrontation caused by the occupation, but when you disagree with the people in power, confrontation is likely and probably useful. Ignore Liberty.

The formal structures of the camp limit the ways people interact and take up a lot of energy. These will not be the long-term legacy of the occupation so try to reduce the amount of time spent on them.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> The formal structures of the camp limit the ways people interact and take up a lot of energy. These will not be the long-term legacy of the occupation so try to reduce the amount of time spent on them.



Its like a small village up at St Pauls (not forgetting Finsbury sq). Just keeping the place going takes a lot of work. Part of the point is to show that things can be done on a cooperative basis. That there is another way of doing things.

What could concern me is a divide building between those who do the politics and those who keep the place functioning.

On a practical note if there are 2 Assemblies a day - at one and seven- then a lot of time is a spent on meetings. Eats into a lot of the day.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

This is what Liberty say

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org...-talks-over-occupy-london-stock-exchange-.php

Depends on what the OL people want. Its not clear to me whether they want to try and stay indefinitely ( like at Parliament sq) or until Xmas.

It not clear to me if this Occupy London camp is there to start to build connections and a movement. And once this is achieved to close camp on there own terms.

If OL want to stay until Xmas and then disband the camp then talks would stave off time and energy consuming legal action.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

treelover said:


> Would i be correct in surmising there are a fair few ex Greenham Common women at OLSX?



Saw a few ladies of a certain age there. Did chat to one who was helping in the canteen for the day.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

Corax said:


> No, I was just being _hilarious_ about your minor typo Gramsci. Ignore me. I try to.



I really cant spell. I rely on spell-checker.


----------



## albionism (Oct 30, 2011)

Best "poem" ever 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ewi2Qo-sX6s#!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

So far:

*Please quote and add to this list below:*

*1. How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?*


Both tempoary and permenant actions/occupations/blockades of selected buildings/organisations to draw attention to planned closures.
*2. How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*


A meeting each week solely for watching/reading the suggestions/views of people off of site to reflect and discuss them.
*3. Can the livestream be improved?*

*4. How does the occupation consider gaining union support?*

*5. Does the occupation recognise that the struggle against cuts and job losses opposed by the unions are relevant to the cause of the 99?*

*6. How do we engage and involve our street/homeless community on a level parity and use this campaign to highlight blatant poverty issues?*


Occupy London already has links with groups like Shelter. What more can they do?
*7. How can the media attention on the camps be used to swing the focus on to the reasons for the protest rather than the protest itself?*

*8. Liberty want to end the confrontation caused by the occupation, but when you disagree with the people in power, confrontation is likely and probably useful. Ignore Liberty.*

* 9. The formal structures of the camp limit the ways people interact and take up a lot of energy. These will not be the long-term legacy of the occupation so try to reduce the amount of time spent on them. *


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Okay people...I have a list of nine points to relay. 

Please look at the list above and make suggestions as to how any of them may be achieved/done?

I think that would be a more constructive way to present these points to the occupiers.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 30, 2011)

It would seem that the dean of St.Paul's is going to offer the camp to continue the debate on the excesses of capitalism inside the cathedral itself under the aegis of the church authorities; this in exchange for the camp to disband and leave (R4 news). This strikes me as merely a ploy to be rid of the camp. My advice (for what it's worth), politely decline.


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 30, 2011)

Interesting front page from the Independent on Sunday...

*Cover-up at St Paul's*



> A highly critical report into the moral standards of bankers has been suppressed by St Paul's Cathedral amid fears that it would inflame tensions over the Occupy London tent protest.
> 
> The report, based on a survey of 500 City workers who were asked whether they thought they were worth their lucrative salaries and bonuses, was due to be published last Thursday, the day that the Canon Chancellor of St Paul's, Giles Fraser, resigned in protest at the church's tough stance.
> 
> But publication of the report, by the St Paul's Institute, has been delayed in an apparent acknowledgement that it would leave the impression that the cathedral was on the side of the protesters.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2011)

A report into..._their moral standards_? Not the effect of their actions, not on the system they are a central part of? Is that because they manage the Church of England's money, the same church who fully support and use hedge funds investing billions with them?


----------



## albionism (Oct 30, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Okay people...I have a list of nine points to relay.
> 
> Please look at the list above and make suggestions as to how any of them may be achieved/done?
> 
> I think that would be a more constructive way to present these points to the occupiers.


Absolutely ....good on ya sis xxxxxx


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Special assembly today at St Pauls with bishop and Dean of St Pauls...Live stream up soon.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Live stream of meeting up NOW...
http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> So far:
> 
> *Please quote and add to this list below:*



Having been up there a few times etc Id like to know if there is a rough timescale for the occupation.

Will it disband once the point has been made?

Or is it there for as long as possible?

Also what happened to the "we are the 99%"?

This ( as someone pointed put to me) has gradually gone into the background. I heard one of the campers being interviewed about what he was there for.He said Global Justice. All very well but the main thrust of OL initially was that the 1% and bankers had screwed up the economy and the rest of us are suffering not them.

The "We are the 99%" slogan was inclusive. It meant a wide range of people and opinions could join up to support occupation.

Are the Occupations now moving to a green environmental solution to the economic crisis rather than keeping to the 99% slogan?

I did get this feeling from the visiting last Saturday.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Alternative stream if the official one is down.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/gavin-ppuk


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

*Please quote and add to this list below:*

*1. How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?*


Both tempoary and permenant actions/occupations/blockades of selected buildings/organisations to draw attention to planned closures.
*2. How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*


A meeting each week solely for watching/reading the suggestions/views of people off of site to reflect and discuss them.
*3. Can the livestream be improved?*

*4. How does the occupation consider gaining union support?*

*5. Does the occupation recognise that the struggle against cuts and job losses opposed by the unions are relevant to the cause of the 99?*

*6. How do we engage and involve our street/homeless community on a level parity and use this campaign to highlight blatant poverty issues?*


Occupy London already has links with groups like Shelter. What more can they do?
*7. How can the media attention on the camps be used to swing the focus on to the reasons for the protest rather than the protest itself?*

*8. Liberty want to end the confrontation caused by the occupation, but when you disagree with the people in power, confrontation is likely and probably useful. Ignore Liberty.*

* 9. The formal structures of the camp limit the ways people interact and take up a lot of energy. These will not be the long-term legacy of the occupation so try to reduce the amount of time spent on them. *

*10. Will it disband once the point has been made? Or is it there for as long as possible?*

*11. The "We are the 99%" slogan was inclusive. It meant a wide range of people and opinions could join up to support occupation. Also what happened to the "we are the 99%"?*

*12. Are the Occupations now moving to a green environmental solution to the economic crisis rather than keeping to the 99% slogan?*


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 30, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> On a practical note if there are 2 Assemblies a day - at one and seven- then a lot of time is a spent on meetings. Eats into a lot of the day.


It's worse than that, because before every Assembly there is a 'process meeting'  premeeting to discuss agenda and facilitation, so if you really want to be involved in the running of it all you have to go to four meetings a day, plus probably at least one other working group, some of which are meeting once a day. This is way over the top for what is actually necessary to run a camp of that size, even if you are organising horizontally.

Some things this means:
it is very difficult to get involved just turning up from time to time
the people who have most power are those who are there full time and can bear endless meetings
a lot of energy is being expended on this that will lead to burnout

I like the occupations but this way of doing things doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 30, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> It's worse than that, because before every Assembly there is a 'process meeting' premeeting to discuss agenda and facilitation, so if you really want to be involved in the running of it all you have to go to four meetings a day, plus probably at least one other working group, some of which are meeting once a day. This is way over the top for what is actually necessary to run a camp of that size, even if you are organising horizontally.
> 
> Some things this means:
> it is very difficult to get involved just turning up from time to time
> ...



I've done it myself, it's all about making sure a small group with stamina and a shared agenda can maintain control, especially if consensus is used (I assume it is).

Democracy lol.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> It's worse than that, because before every Assembly there is a 'process meeting' premeeting to discuss agenda and facilitation, *so if you really want to be involved in the running of it all you have to go to four meetings a day, plus probably at least one other working group, some of which are meeting once a day.* This is way over the top for what is actually necessary to run a camp of that size, even if you are organising horizontally.


 NOt true, you can get involved by only attending one meeting. Either the GA to make suggestions/shout outs etc...and/or the process one to get involved in setting the agenda/make suggestions.

Those in the process meetings and working groups change near on daily...they are not all resident on site full time, far from it.

This is why they are calling out for more volunteers to get involved in any way they can. They don't want the same people doing it all the time, they want to avoid burnout and to allow/facilitate others having their say/input.


----------



## treelover (Oct 30, 2011)

they are missing open goals such as the 49% rise in directors pay, the public would side with them on that...


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 30, 2011)

What sort of things are the church covering in this report covering when they say moral standards? Not going to church, swearing, etc?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 30, 2011)

Keep the banks occupied! Every little helps.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> NOt true, you can get involved by only attending one meeting. Either the GA to make suggestions/shout outs etc...and/or the process one to get involved in setting the agenda/make suggestions.
> 
> Those in the process meetings and working groups change near on daily...they are not all resident on site full time, far from it.
> 
> This is why they are calling out for more volunteers to get involved in any way they can. They don't want the same people doing it all the time, they want to avoid burnout and to allow/facilitate others having their say/input.



I didnt follow the reasoning behind the process meetings . In meetings there is usually a standard agenda. ( agree previous meeting, reports , items requested to be on agenda for discussion and AOB).

Perhaps the evening GAs are different.

Also concerning is that at one point some took it on themselves to disregard a GA decision when it came to the crunch. This quote from Occupied Times:

There have been some key moments along the way; St. Paul’s initial backing was crucial, and were it 
not for some ‘direct action’ when the general assembly granted police permission to erect a barrier 
along the shop side of the camp, it might not feel as homely. This was not, though, a failing of the GA. 
Although the initial decision was eventually overturned, the second consensus meeting - held while a 
group blocked the police barrier

http://theoccupiedtimes.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/the-occupied-times-of-london_small.pdf

At the moment , from what ive seen, people there are working well together. Consensus is obtainable. The threats from outside ( legal action) have given people there a solidarity in the face of an external threat. Shows how tactically poor the Church has been.

I also noticed in Occupied Times ( which is well produced mag). that the Finsbury sq "occupation was mostly organised by the OccupyLSX direct action group". I wonder if the second occupation was partly due to differences of opinion in the occupiers.


----------



## gabi (Oct 30, 2011)

Silly question - and maybe a little bit late. But why St Pauls? The bankers are in Canary Wharf these days. There's no major bank around there (assuming that the goal is to protest against the banking system)..

As much as i despise the christian church I can't quite figure out the connection here.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> Silly question - and maybe a little bit late. But why St Pauls? The bankers are in Canary Wharf these days. There's no major bank around there (assuming that the goal is to protest against the banking system)..
> 
> As much as i despise the christian church I can't quite figure out the connection here.


They wanted to go to paternoster square but were blocked by police and ended up by St Pauls (which I think was the assembly point).. City of London & stock exchange is why that area rather than Canary Wharf..


----------



## gabi (Oct 30, 2011)

But the City is no longer in the City in reality. They're in Canary Wharf. That's where all the major investment banks are based. Why not there?

Seems a bit nuts to target the christians, but whatever. Always pleased to see a reverend squirming on telly


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

treelover said:


> they are missing open goals such as the 49% rise in directors pay, the public would side with them on that...



In there defence a lot of the talk in media and from the City is that they dont have alternatives. Looks to me like the OC at St Pauls and Finsbury are in for the long haul. They are trying to get speakers in from outside and have debates. Also working groups- some of which are to develop alternatives.

The issue of directors pay has been around for years. Labour did nothing about it. Its a symptom of an unequal system. I think the OCLSX want to look at the system rather than just say directors pay is to high.

Something the mainstream parties are not doing.

They also have been caught up in a discussion with the CofE about the role of the church. I noticed the issue of directors "remuneration" came up on the Livestream this morning when the Church leaders were questioned.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> But the City is no longer in the City in reality. They're in Canary Wharf. That's where all the major investment banks are based. Why not there?
> 
> Seems a bit nuts to target the christians, but whatever. Always pleased to see a reverend squirming on telly



Problem is , as I posted on the Finsbury sq thread, this is private land. There has been an increasing move to privatise space as well as the economy.

Being on Church land is causing the Church a lot of problems. Finsbury sq is Islington Council owned.

See here article by Anna Minton on the privatisation of space:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/26/private-spaces-protest-occupy-london


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 30, 2011)

Surprisingly good article by Rawnsley in Observer:

Who is truly the more adult: the protesters or an establishment that regards itself as older and wiser? The protesters have largely been very decorously behaved. They have thus far displayed no propensity to riot or to loot. Their tents are erected in rather neat rows. They hold laboriously consensus-seeking meetings at which they keep minutes and take votes. Their spokespeople are polite and articulate. If they do not have all the answers, they are at least posing some of the right questions. I don't see why they should be criticised for the absence of a manifesto when the leaders of Europe spent months quarrelling and flailing over the euro crisis before scrabbling together an expensively botched compromise.​The protesters shun formal leaders and hierarchies – and I also don't see why they should be criticised for this at a time when conventional leaders and hierarchies have been so conspicuously useless​
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/30/andrew-rawnsley-occupy-protesters-grown-up


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2011)

Pat on the head from the PR arm of the boss class. Nein Danke


----------



## sihhi (Oct 30, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> Surprisingly good article by Rawnsley in Observer:
> ...
> *Who is truly the more adult: the protesters or an establishment that regards itself as older and wiser? The protesters have largely been very decorously behaved. They have thus far displayed no propensity to riot or to loot.*



Rawnsley likes them because 1. they make journalists and politicians feel important/special 2. currently pose no threat to anything (not a criticism btw).

If/When the police attack them, he will criticise the protestors for being violent.
+
I couldn't stay for a meeting, some people there dismissed proposal from me for collective hunger strikes like in Beijing '89.

My observation was 'green'ish radical element as the bedrock - middle-class, well-off parents but committed to activism (not a criticism). No one is sure where to move next - including me.

It does feel like two cities within London. Transport fares are so expensive to get there from further afield. I am not sure what those on the outside should be doing 'in support' apart from the obvious.


----------



## Corax (Oct 30, 2011)

gabi said:


> Seems a bit nuts to target the christians, but whatever.


I've not been following the whole thing particularly closely, but I'm sure I read in an account of Rev Giles Fraser's resignation that they were initially 'invited' to use the land?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 30, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> * 9. The formal structures of the camp limit the ways people interact and take up a lot of energy. These will not be the long-term legacy of the occupation so try to reduce the amount of time spent on them. *




if you're worrying about that.....


----------



## Dr Dolittle (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't like the way some people here are sneering at the Church - they are paying at least lip service support to the group, and giving the whole thing a lot of media publicity. There has been very little in the media about the Finsbury Square group because that camp isn't conflicting with any high profile establishment group (the Cathedral). The controversy with the Cathedral was unintentional but it has kept the occupation high on the news agenda. That, I think, should be the main role of the camps - publicity. And on R4's _The World at One_ today they talked about it for nearly fifteen minutes, before going on to discuss the effect of deregulation of the City in 1986.

During the winter there will probably be a partial 'hibernation' period, with camps getting smaller and some disappearing altogether, but hopefully come next spring they will be back, ready for a long haul all through the summer. Tho' with the Olympics and the Diamond Jubilee next year, sparks might fly. Heavy police action can't be ruled out.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 30, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> if you're worrying about that.....


Is it a strange thing to worry about? Many of the people I've asked who no longer do political stuff cite 'the fucking meetings' (or similar language) as a reason for not doing stuff any more. People will burn out from this level of meeting-saturation very quickly. I went to a working group meeting at St Paul's and left after _an hour and a half_ because they were still discussing the processes the working group was using, not having got onto the topic of the group at all.

I like the occupation but I'm saying this stuff needs working on or not only will the camp not be sustainable but the people involved will not want to be involved in other things in the future.


----------



## treelover (Oct 30, 2011)

' 'How Corporations are Driving Welfare Reform for Profit'

they are doing a talk on welfare/benefits reform, I wonder who is doing it?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 30, 2011)

treelover said:


> ' 'How Corporations are Driving Welfare Reform for Profit'
> 
> they are doing a talk on welfare/benefits reform, I wonder who is doing it?



always asking the questions never answering


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> if you're worrying about that.....



I am not....I am the relay on this one.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I wonder if the second occupation *was partly due to differences of opinion* in the occupiers.



No...St Pauls got too big, decision to find a 2nd camp was taken, some people moved over. Some move between the camps daily/nightly.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2011)

Any more suggestions to add below the points made below?​ 
*Please quote and add to this list below:*​
*1. How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?*​
Both tempoary and permenant actions/occupations/blockades of selected buildings/organisations to draw attention to planned closures.

*2. How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*

A meeting each week solely for watching/reading the suggestions/views of people off of site to reflect and discuss them.

*3. Can the livestream be improved?*

*4. How does the occupation consider gaining union support?*​
*5. Does the occupation recognise that the struggle against cuts and job losses opposed by the unions are relevant to the cause of the 99?*​
*6. How do we engage and involve our street/homeless community on a level parity and use this campaign to highlight blatant poverty issues?*​
Occupy London already has links with groups like Shelter. What more can they do?

*7. How can the media attention on the camps be used to swing the focus on to the reasons for the protest rather than the protest itself?*

*8. Liberty want to end the confrontation caused by the occupation, but when you disagree with the people in power, confrontation is likely and probably useful. Ignore Liberty.*​
* 9. The formal structures of the camp limit the ways people interact and take up a lot of energy. These will not be the long-term legacy of the occupation so try to reduce the amount of time spent on them. *​
*10. Will it disband once the point has been made? Or is it there for as long as possible?*​
*11. The "We are the 99%" slogan was inclusive. It meant a wide range of people and opinions could join up to support occupation. Also what happened to the "we are the 99%"?*​
*12. Are the Occupations now moving to a green environmental solution to the economic crisis rather than keeping to the 99% slogan?*​


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> But the City is no longer in the City in reality. They're in Canary Wharf. That's where all the major investment banks are based. Why not there?
> 
> Seems a bit nuts to target the christians, but whatever. Always pleased to see a reverend squirming on telly



Er, so no serious answer from the 'occupiers' on this?

Why St Pauls?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> Why St Pauls?



Wasn't it the nearest place they could feasibly camp for some reason?  And then the Dean or someone invited them.

Sorry, my memory goes a bit on the blink at this time of night...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> Er, so no serious answer from the 'occupiers' on this?
> 
> Why St Pauls?



St Pauls was not the target. Paternoster Square/ The London Stock Exchange was. The occupiers couldn't get into  Paternoster Square so set up outside. Which, just happens to be outside St Paul's too. St Paul's is incidental to that.... This had and still has nothing to do with the church or St Paul's!


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

So why not Canary Wharf?

And why publically humilate senior St Pauls officials, who are 'incidental' to this?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> So why not Canary Wharf?



They couldn't camp at the stock exchange as it is privately owned land and an eviction would happen sharpish. I think the same may be true of canary Wharf too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> And why publically humilate senior St Pauls officials, who are 'incidental' to this?



When did this happen?


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> St Pauls was not the target. Paternoster Square/ The London Stock Exchange was. The occupiers couldn't get into Paternoster Square so set up outside. Which, just happens to be outside St Paul's too. St Paul's is incidental to that.... This had and still has nothing to do with the church or St Paul's!



You do realise, by the way, where Bob Diamond works? I hope?

This is the most clueless protest I've ever seen. I broadly agree with the aims. But its frankly embrarrassing watching the footage on the news. Occuping Wall St is one thing. That kinda makes sense. But St Pauls? Seriously?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 31, 2011)

Are there real questions rather than ones from a Radio 4 comedy panel show?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2011)

This excuse of "it's privately owned land" doesn't wash with me I'm afriad. Sorry, but so fucking what? They're going to get evicted wherever they go, they might as well get evicted from the place they set out to occupy in the first place.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> So why not Canary Wharf?



I can't speak for the campers, but I would guess that occupying the London stock exchange by means of an encampment in Canary Wharf might have caused more confusion rather than less.



gabi said:


> And why publically humilate senior St Pauls officials, who are 'incidental' to this?



Dunno - I guess I missed that part.
Youthful high jinks, perhaps?


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> When did this happen?



Tonight. Some smirking kid bollocking a priest. Just odd that the church has been brought into it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> That kinda makes sense. But St Pauls? Seriously?



How many more times do we have to explain this to you? They are not occupying St Paul's they are camped outside Paternoster Square/the London Stock Exchange which just happens to be next to St Pauls!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

Delroy Booth said:


> This excuse of "it's privately owned land" doesn't wash with me I'm afriad. Sorry, but so fucking what? They're going to get evicted wherever they go, they might as well get evicted from the place they set out to occupy in the first place.



Okay then... I am with you...Where shall we go and camp? I will follow your lead.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2011)

Cos the church are sideing with the authorities of the city of london perhaps?

Fuck the c of e - they've humiliated themselves by demonstrating exactly whose side they are on.


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> How many more times do we have to explain this to you? They are not occupying St Paul's they are camped outside Paternoster Square/the London Stock Exchange which just happens to be next to St Pauls!



With brains like this, good luck 

I've worked at both the LSE and investment banks down the years (albeit in minor roles before u leap down my throat), and i can assure you the dickheads work in the latter...

theres a massive square at canary wharf, go there.. thats where the power is


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2011)

OSLX seems to be really taking off, absolutely masses of mainstream coverage, the LSX has been forced into responding

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/30/occupy-protesters-government-blame-lse-chairman


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2011)

'Next up is the dilemma about how to deal with the increasing number of homeless who are pitching up to take advantage of the free hot vegetarian food and want to sleep in the "university" tent.'

this could become a problem, but this below is great

'In part, the self-possession comes from the steady flow of engagement with sympathetic, curious passersby. "I just want to say that I would be with you if I wasn't too old to camp and I didn't have a full-time job," I overheard one lady tell a protester. Everywhere there is the hum of strangers talking to each other about politics, accompanied by a sense of relief that finally people have a space in which to talk about their anger and frustration at injustice.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/30/occupy-london-nursery-mind


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> theres a massive square at canary wharf, go there.. thats where the power is


 
Okay...we are behind you. Let's go to Canary Wharf and set up camp 3. We are following your lead!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Next up is the dilemma about how to deal with the increasing number of homeless who are pitching up to take advantage of the free hot vegetarian food and want to sleep in the "university" tent.'
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/30/occupy-london-nursery-mind
> this could be a problem though..



I know that outreach workers from homeless charities/organisations have been to FS over this weekend to talk to homeless people camping on site...I imagine the same has happened at St Pauls too.


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Okay...we are behind you. Let's go to Canary Wharf and set up camp 3. We are following your lead!



Honestly? There are far more effective ways of changing the world. I genuinely think the ruling classes are welcoming this current 'movement'.

Change happens from within.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 31, 2011)

And what about that airline food?


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Ach... anyway... respect to the people out there doin that

aaiiiii


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> Honestly? There are far more effective ways of changing the world. I genuinely think the ruling classes are welcoming this current 'movement'.
> 
> *Change happens from within*.



LOL


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> Honestly? There are far more effective ways of changing the world. I genuinely think the ruling classes are welcoming this current 'movement'.




No there are not. There is no effective way of changing the world in the context you mean it.. unless you count blowing it up. Or inventing the telephone or somesuch.

That's the basic problem... the lie that there are effective and democratic ways to change the world. Bullshit. There aren't.

That why you are wrong... the ruling classes do not welcome this movement. The don't understand it, can't strategise effectively against it and have no idea of it's source. It targets the thing they covet the most... land - space.


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 31, 2011)

Great article in the Guardian:

Occupy London is a nursery for the mind
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/30/occupy-london-nursery-mind


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2011)

Whose getting taught what?


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Er..

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rs-occupy-london-stock-exchange-201110284478/


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2011)

Er what?


----------



## Corax (Oct 31, 2011)

Who's


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2011)

The Dean of St Pauls has resigned - off you fuck


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Surreal


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2011)

When is Rowan Williams going to say something...

Oh, and anyone crowing about the resignations, they will lose their home, etc, the bishops of Sheffield i knew got 12'000  a year..


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## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

Rowan Atkinson's opinion should also be sought on this I feel


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

probably to busy down the barbers getting his chin hedge sorted


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 31, 2011)

treelover said:


> When is Rowan Williams going to say something...


The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, said he was sad to hear the news of Dean Knowles' resignation.



> "The events of the last couple of weeks have shown very clearly how decisions made in good faith by good people under unusual pressure can have utterly unforeseen and unwelcome consequences, and the clergy of St Paul's deserve our understanding in these circumstances," he said.
> 
> He added that the wider issues raised by the protesters "remain very much on the table".


bbc coverage


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2011)

btw, Chartres who is taking over negotiations is a Tory..

oh, and all the religions seem to be getting on the OSLX bandwagon..


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> Er..
> 
> http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/antireligious-protestors-occupy-london-stock-exchange-201110284478/


What's this about gabi?


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What's this about gabi?



Just a mildly amusing take on the situation at St Pauls. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2011)

we need more like this, i think this movement is now touching a nerve with many WC people

'we want solution and action now, i am taking action e.g i am a painter and decorator from the u.k i will not name my company but here goes, i am charging cooperations that pay there employees minimum wages and there bosses get massive 70% pay increases full rate for my tradesman-ship, i do this for 4 days a week and with the other days i have spare i work on gratitude for people ho are really stru...ggling e.g single mother going to work everyday paying child support who have no time to make there home look nice, old people that have had there pensions taken from them that they were promised, lets beat the system and if we all try we will see a drastic change. peace
we have to learn to adapt and take advantage of the system as it is now to make change for the future.'


----------



## dylans (Oct 31, 2011)

treelover said:


> we need more like this, i think this movement is now touching a nerve with many WC people
> 
> 'we want solution and action now, i am taking action e.g i am a painter and decorator from the u.k i will not name my company but here goes, i am charging cooperations that pay there employees minimum wages and there bosses get massive 70% pay increases full rate for my tradesman-ship, i do this for 4 days a week and *with the other days i have spare i work on gratitude for people ho are really stru...ggling e.g single mother going to work everyday paying child support who have no time to make there home look nice, old people that have had there pensions taken from them that they were promised,* lets beat the system and if we all try we will see a drastic change. peace
> we have to learn to adapt and take advantage of the system as it is now to make change for the future.'


Does that include single fathers cus I could really do with my hall repapering


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## ddraig (Oct 31, 2011)

god gabi you really are fucking dense!
why don't you go down there and put em straight seeing as you have the answers
jeez


----------



## gabi (Oct 31, 2011)

ddraig said:


> god gabi you really are fucking dense!
> why don't you go down there and put em straight seeing as you have the answers
> jeez



Eh?


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 31, 2011)

gabi said:


> Just a mildly amusing take on the situation at St Pauls. Nothing more, nothing less.


Let me try and clear up the confusions you are labouring under.

The occupation is at St Paul's because that's where it started, it couldn't move to Paternoster sq, then it got coralled by police. We were powerless to take the place we wanted against the police so the best option seemed to be to stay where there weren't lines of mounted police wanting to beat us round the head. The current location is a result of powerlessness and pragmatism.

For the tenth time, Canary Wharf is private land - there is not one inch of public land in the area, not even the roads. It has what amounts to a private police force, with backup from the real police always arriving very quickly. A camp would last ten minutes.

As for the protest bothering the clergy. You have clearly not been paying attention to why this is causing such rifts at St Pauls. This may help you:
http://www.stpauls.co.uk/Support-St-Pauls/Our-Supporters
http://www.stpauls.co.uk/Support-St-Pauls/Corporate-Partnerships
Still worried about bothering the clergy?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> For the tenth time, Canary Wharf is private land - there is not one inch of public land in the area, not even the roads. It has what amounts to a private police force, with backup from the real police always arriving very quickly. A camp would last ten minutes.



So what if it's private land? Do it anyway. The fact that Canary Wharf and Paternoster Sq is private is a scandal in itself, and not something anyone should be scared of trespassing over.

besides, it's looking like you'll be evicted anyway, even if you're in public. If it weren't for the generosity of a few elements within the Church of England you'd already be gone. Would you rather not get evicted from Canary Wharf or LSX than be evicted from St. Pauls?

I understand the reason for going to St Pauls, and I think it served a purpose whilst it lasted, but wasn't it meant to be a temporary thing until a proper occupation sire could be sorted out? Furthermore, this debate with St.Pauls and the CoE is starting to overshadow the issues the protest is designed to draw attention to. The occupation itself is becoming the news story, instead of the behaviour of banks and financial services.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 31, 2011)

> ANONYMOUS has been exposing corrupt and dubious organisations, groups and individuals for a while. However, there are those who still continue to act in unlawful and harmful ways towards the people, whether they be in the UK or around the world. The British Government is no exception!
> 
> On the evening of the 5th November, 2011, at 6pm, ANONYMOUS is calling for its supporters and thousands of others who adhere to peace, freedom ...and 'real' justice to converge outside the Houses of Parliament, in a peaceful gathering - for all the world to see - to let the Government know the error of its ways and demand appropriate action is taken by them to rectify their corrupt and perverted ways. There will be Leafleting, Speeches, Sharing facts & figures, "Free-Hugs", all in a peaceful manner (yet remaining non-compliant with any and all unlawful legislation) that is the ANONYMOUS way.
> 
> ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 31, 2011)

> _ANONYMOUS reminds the people that (if we are to believe the official version of events) the *war-on-terror* was (allegedly) carried out by terrorists, ALL of whom had their faces on show at all times during the attacks on 9/11 and 7/7! Indeed_



They need to have another glance at that sentence before this goes to press.


----------



## rekil (Oct 31, 2011)

> ANONYMOUS reminds the people that (if we are to believe the official version of events) the war-on-terror was (allegedly) carried out by terrorists,


The mask slips a smidgen. I hate these pricks.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Oct 31, 2011)

Good luck to Anonymous in their gathering on Nov 5th outside Parliament. There could be fireworks, but not perhaps anything to do with Anonymous. There will be lots of people around, but then it will be rush hour. As for an appeal to the police to defend 'COMMON LAW', they don't realise that the concept is American and has no meaning in the UK. The Police serve their masters and do their bidding.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 31, 2011)

just passing the info on... they have almost 1500 signed up to their FB event... so you can divide that by a good ten...
tbh: I'm more interested in the 'declared' attack on Faux news websites that day...


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 31, 2011)

Delroy Booth said:


> So what if it's private land? Do it anyway.
> 
> besides, it's looking like you'll be evicted anyway, even if you're in public.



Because there's not much different between ten minutes and two weeks is there?

I've got a suggestion. _You_ set up a camp in Canary Wharf.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 31, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> They need to have another glance at that sentence before this goes to press.


I have risen that with them and a few other bits n pieces...


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 31, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> I have risen that with them and a few other bits n pieces...



It's like the war on terror and 9/11 are two different things yet they appear to confuse the two in that sentence.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

> Bearing in mind that you are sworn to uphold COMMON LAW,


 
These people are twats


----------



## Corax (Oct 31, 2011)

Some of the phrasing reminded me of Malatesta.

ETA: I'm not suggesting it _*was*_ written by Malatesta.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 31, 2011)

That is incredibly embarrassing.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 31, 2011)

I guess the problem with having a structure-less organisation that anyone can effectively be part of is that numpties can make incredibly immature political statements and everyone under the umbrella gets tarred with it. They're probably best just sticking with DDOS attacks until they can allocate someone with a couple of brain cells to communicate their aims.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 31, 2011)

I am not Anonymous- obviously, as I am Kenny G- BUT their way of hive mind collaboration has achieved more interesting results in the last couple of years than ten years or so of U75'ers coming on here to rip shreds out of each other.

If parts of what has been produced is crap then get involved and contribute to improving the next. I think quite a bit of their propoganda is considerably better than much of what else is out there. i.e http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drx8cwG-aKE&feature=player_embedded#!

At 7.00 it even mentions getting a wrench- are these the new captain ludds?


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 31, 2011)

What results are these?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

The propaganda thinks it is communiques of relevance from a faceless mass. It's not. It's painful posturing and the example upthread is chock-full of allusions to the brand of right libertarian shit that has no place at all in a movement that hopes to be progressive, relevant and opposed to the people who take rather than make. Shit like that is of no use to any fucker except 'channers  wanking over themselves


----------



## rekil (Oct 31, 2011)

wankers said:
			
		

> further erosion of our basic Common Law and *Divine rights*



Some mad god stuff thrown in there for whatever fucked up reason.



> ANONYMOUS will no longer tolerate the oppression of people by the very Governments who are put in place to support and protect the people.


Ralph Wiggum in a V mask.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

copliker said:


> Some mad god stuff thrown in there for whatever fucked up reason.


 
legal fetishists- once you start looking and believing in laws and rights as something abstracted from the context of class society it isn't a great leap to think these rights are granted by the big beard in the sky


----------



## kenny g (Oct 31, 2011)

The video I linked to is a rejection of consumerism and the mundanity of every day life. Can't see what is so bad about it.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 31, 2011)

kenny g said:


> The video I linked to is a rejection of consumerism and the mundanity of every day life. Can't see what is so bad about it.



What results?


----------



## kenny g (Oct 31, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> legal fetishists- once you start looking and believing in laws and rights as something abstracted from the context of class society it isn't a great leap to think these rights are granted by the big beard in the sky



ffs- mentioning divine rights doesn't automatically make someone a religious nut job.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 31, 2011)

kenny g said:


> ffs- mentioning divine rights doesn't automatically make someone a religious nut job.



What are "divine rights"?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

divine rights are granted by a divinity, so if you invoke them in any context it sort of does mean that you are appealing to a deity. It might not mean 'religious nut job' but it does mean you think these rights are abstract from class society and granted by god(s).


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 31, 2011)

It's so clueless it might as well be.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 31, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> divine rights are granted by a divinity, so if you invoke them in any context it sort of does mean that you are appealing to a deity. It might not mean 'religious nut job' but it does mean you think these rights are abstract from class society and granted by god(s).



nonsense on stilts and all that- so I guess you are against human rights as they are abstract from class society?


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 31, 2011)

kenny g said:


> nonsense on stilts and all that- so I guess you are against human rights as they are abstract from class society?



well he is a stalinist


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

except that they aren't, are they?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> well he is a stalinist


 
List girl. List.


----------



## Dr Dolittle (Oct 31, 2011)

If the camp had been at Canary Wharf, assuming they hadn't been forced off within an hour, would it have made as much inpact as the St Paul's camp? I doubt it. It wasn't aimed at the Cathedral, of course, but the clashes that came about has kept this event all over the media, and resulted in two major resignations. They have got more than they bargained for. Fortune can come from the most unexpected places. Que sera sera? (Well, it did all start in Spain.)


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 31, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Fortune can come from the most unexpected places. Q



God moves in mysterious ways.


----------



## Corax (Oct 31, 2011)

Quoting your post below because a phrase you used stimulated the thought C66 - not attacking your post.


Citizen66 said:


> I guess the problem with having a structure-less organisation that anyone can effectively be part of is that numpties can make incredibly immature political statements and everyone under the umbrella gets tarred with it.


Those 'numpties' will likely be making those statements with good intent, and from principles that others would empathise with.

It's all good that there are those that are dedicated enough to educate themselves to the level that some on here have/do. It's all good that the sophistication of thought that those people offer exists, and is shared. But the truth is that until people are being loaded into cattle trucks, the majority will find that everyday life and other passions dissuade from that depth of learning.

That those 'numpties' care should be celebrated IMO, and the challenge is to channel their energy, rather than to dismiss it. It's likely that amongst them there are those that possess thoughts and ideas that all could learn from as well, rather than just being base units there to be educated.

As always, these things seem to become polarised. Over the years it's seemed to me that in some places there's been an increasing polarisation between the dedicated researcher/campaigner, and the more casual elements. This may just be my perception, I really don't know. It's a waste anyway, whether it's a growing phenomenon or not.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 31, 2011)

But no - being serious now - it's not a question of being "for" or "against" human rights. Human rights can't and don't exist outside a class context and there is little doubt that if they seriously threatened the bourgeoisie rule they would be done away with. You also need to look at the context of what human rights are seen as as rights, and this is one sense in which the stalinists are correct (well, sort of ). For example, the right to have a job, to a living wage, to not starve to death in the street, to healthcare, to have a roof over ones head etc, are not seen by Amnesty International and similar as "human rights" and are not campaigned upon by these organisations. Why not? Why are these not the sort of thing we see as human rights?

In addition the concept of universal human rights is something that can change and the definitions of these things that are already laid out can change according to the conditions, especially things like the right to protest, the right to vote, the right to freedom of association etc. The problem with the conventional discourse is that they are viewed as something that is unchanging in their definition (untrue) and something that is granted by the EU / UN / God etc rather than having been fought for. All the things that we take for granted now are concessions that were won by collective action or else of a necessity by the ruling class to stave off social unrest, reduce the likelihood of strikes, weaken protest movements (of the left AND to a lesser extent the right).


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 31, 2011)

Headline news on BBC now!

Just seen this too:



> *The medieval, unaccountable Corporation of London is ripe for protest*
> 
> What is this thing? Ostensibly it's the equivalent of a local council, responsible for a small area of London known as the Square Mile. But, as its website boasts, "among local authorities the City of London is unique". You bet it is. There are 25 electoral wards in the Square Mile. In four of them, the 9,000 people who live within its boundaries are permitted to vote. In the remaining 21, the votes are controlled by corporations, mostly banks and other financial companies. The bigger the business, the bigger the vote: a company with 10 workers gets two votes, the biggest employers, 79. It's not the workers who decide how the votes are cast, but the bosses, who "appoint" the voters. Plutocracy, pure and simple.
> 
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/31/corporation-london-city-medieval


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

Anyone seen pics or video of the direct action/flash mob dance-arama this evening that road blocked Bank, Liverpool street on the way back to LFS from LSX?


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2011)

I won't break my anti like vow but that is fair close to my thinking wrt human rights frogwoman. They aren't abstract from class society- how the hell could they be?


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 31, 2011)

copliker said:


> Ralph Wiggum in a V mask.


That almost made me do a like.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

Paternoster Sq.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

An Urbanite? 





Bank of England


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

RBS building, Liverpool Street.





Anonymous taking care of bank business?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 31, 2011)

great pics...

nice n media friendly too!


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 31, 2011)

Brilliant photos - good job, well done to all involved.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> great pics...
> 
> nice n media friendly too!



Yep....we had a plan....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Brilliant photos - good job, well done to all involved.



Am uploading video...It will make you smile. 

Just heard it made the BBC and Channel 4 tonight so.....all good so far!


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 31, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Am uploading video...It will make you smile.
> 
> Just heard it made the BBC and Channel 4 tonight so.....all good so far!



I hope the video is better than this one....


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2011)

Are there any pictures of you anywhere Rutita?


----------



## claphamboy (Oct 31, 2011)

> *Occupy London protesters keen to regain focus on the City and bankers*
> 
> Campaigners seek to move spotlight from St Paul's to unaccountability and the anomalous Corporation of London
> 
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 31, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are there any pictures of you anywhere Rutita?



Heh! Maybe...


----------



## shaman75 (Oct 31, 2011)




----------



## shaman75 (Oct 31, 2011)

Hearing Northampton Square has been occupied.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

RBS Liverpool Street....


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Heh! Maybe...



that'll be a yes then?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> I hope the video is better than this one....




Looks like it was shot by a passer-by.

Not the best close ups but it was great to shut down the main junction at Bank.


----------



## treelover (Nov 1, 2011)

Matthew Wright looks a lot older than he does on The Wright Stuff without the makeup!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> that'll be a yes then?



None in my pics or vids Minnie. That vid that CB posted you do see the back of my head but I am pretty far forward taking pics.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Hearing Northampton Square has been occupied.



Yeah?


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 1, 2011)

Who knows!

https://twitter.com/#!/TentCityUni/status/131157113283153920


----------



## treelover (Nov 1, 2011)

RE: Inside Out package, that video was incredibly balanced and informative, without sensationalism, do the BBC head honchos know its gone out!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> None in my pics or vids Minnie. That vid that CB posted you do see the back of my head but I am pretty far forward taking pics.


----------



## laptop (Nov 1, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


>



Oh shit. Do the others know about this man?

Where's the "dislike" button?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2011)

If it's a fancy dress party then Chris Knight will be there.


----------



## albionism (Nov 1, 2011)

Get rid of him, he's the kiss of death!.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 1, 2011)

shhhh

let them keep him


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

Calm down everyone. He is not in charge of anything.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

So back to this....so far:


Any more suggestions to add below the points made below?​

*Please quote and add to this list below:*​

*1. How about occupying libraries or other services under threat of closure?*​
Both tempoary and permenant actions/occupations/blockades of selected buildings/organisations to draw attention to planned closures.

*2. How can people how are not able to attend meetings/the camps have a greater say in where the protest/occupation is going in order to make it more representative of the 99%?*


A meeting each week solely for watching/reading the suggestions/views of people off of site to reflect and discuss them.

*3. Can the livestream be improved?*


*4. How does the occupation consider gaining union support?*​

*5. Does the occupation recognise that the struggle against cuts and job losses opposed by the unions are relevant to the cause of the 99?*​

*6. How do we engage and involve our street/homeless community on a level parity and use this campaign to highlight blatant poverty issues?*​
Occupy London already has links with groups like Shelter. What more can they do?

*7. How can the media attention on the camps be used to swing the focus on to the reasons for the protest rather than the protest itself?*


*8. Liberty want to end the confrontation caused by the occupation, but when you disagree with the people in power, confrontation is likely and probably useful. Ignore Liberty.*​

* 9. The formal structures of the camp limit the ways people interact and take up a lot of energy. These will not be the long-term legacy of the occupation so try to reduce the amount of time spent on them. *​

*10. Will it disband once the point has been made? Or is it there for as long as possible?*​

*11. The "We are the 99%" slogan was inclusive. It meant a wide range of people and opinions could join up to support occupation. Also what happened to the "we are the 99%"?*​

*12. Are the Occupations now moving to a green environmental solution to the economic crisis rather than keeping to the 99% slogan?*​


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

So...it is important and interesting that the media are running stories and referring to the occupiers as 'squatters' now. _Peaceful protest is okay but not turning a place into a squat_ is what Teresa May said this morning on the radio. Timing is everything...Just as the anti-sqautting discussions/laws are being amended.

!2 people arrested last night at the protest in Parliment Square also.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2011)

Story is that St Pauls have suspended legal action


----------



## treelover (Nov 1, 2011)

is it true that the 'Brew Crew' has arrived and spoiling the atmosphere?


----------



## treelover (Nov 1, 2011)

'St Paul’s Cross in the church yard of St Paul’s Cathedral is the ancient meeting point where the citizens of London would gather to decide matters of common concern. It was at the Cross that Saxons, Normans and others held a folkmoot in 1066 to decide how to respond to the invading army who were marching up from Hastings. They committed together to defending the city and eventually were able to negotiate a settlement with William the Conqueror, one which allowed them to maintain their rights and civic freedoms so that London was the only part of England that was not feudalised. So there is a certain irony that those who inherited the legacy of these civic institutions and freedoms, namely the Corporation of the City of London, are planning to evict the participants in the Occupy movement who are using the same location for a latter day folkmoot. But then the Corporation now represents those who benefitted from the biggest transfer of assets from poor to rich since the Norman Conquest.'

http://christianitycontemporarypoli...tle-of-st-paul-cathedral-occupy.html?spref=tw

The location of the occupation at S/P has a lot of significant historical resonance:


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2011)

treelover said:


> is it true that the 'Brew Crew' has arrived and spoiling the atmosphere?


No idea about london but this is happening in NYC:
NYPD steers drunks to Occupy Wall Street


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 1, 2011)

Tate Modern: http://www.artlyst.com/articles/tate-modern-occupied-by-anti-capitalist-protesters


----------



## Belushi (Nov 1, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Tate Modern: http://www.artlyst.com/articles/tate-modern-occupied-by-anti-capitalist-protesters



What's the thinking behind occupying the Tate?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2011)

Hopefully it's connected to the electricians protests at the tate building site...


----------



## Belushi (Nov 1, 2011)

That would be good. I know Tate have sponsorship deals with some big corporates like Shell (I was at an anti-shell event there in the summer).

I'm just a little concerned that after the original protest has become associated in the public mind with St Pauls rather than the stock exchange this could take the attention away from the original target even more.


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 1, 2011)

It doesn't matter to me.  What matters, imo, is sharing the process with as many people as possible.  There are lots of people go to the Tate Modern and I think it would be great if as many people as possible experience the assembly process and hopefully tell others.


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 1, 2011)

Similar to the sentiment in this video.


----------



## Zabo (Nov 1, 2011)

*A cathedral spokesman said it intended to "engage directly and constructively" with the protesters "without the threat of forcible eviction".*

*It said the investment banker Ken Costa would head an initiative "reconnecting the financial with the ethical"*

From the man himself:

http://godatwork.org.uk/2011/10/31/...-city-should-heed-discordant-voices-st-paul’s


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 1, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> _"Peaceful protest is okay but not turning a place into a squat"_ is what Teresa May said this morning on the radio.


I've lost count of the number of times over the past few weeks when establishment speakers, journalists and others have said "everyone supports the right to protest and free speech _*but*_....."

The missing bit being "..._*but*_ not when we don't agree/don't like the look of it/ have to look at tents/hippies all day" etc.

Hypocrites.


----------



## treelover (Nov 1, 2011)

OLSX are saying COL legal action suspended, is this right?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2011)

Financial backers of St Paul’s Cathedral are dominated by banking interests worth more than £450 billion. 

Dialogue? You don't dialogue with these people.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2011)

treelover said:


> OLSX are saying COL legal action suspended, is this right?


The Church have suspended their involvement in the legal proceedings - whether that means other people or bodies proceeding i don't know.


----------



## treelover (Nov 1, 2011)

'http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/nov/01/occupy-london-live-coverage-of-protests-and-reaction'

COL have as well now! least for time being....


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 1, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The missing bit being



"...only if it's a non-violent A to B affair that attracts little support or attention from the media."


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Story is that St Pauls have suspended legal action



I think they are being clever here. The idea of forcibly evicting the camp has caused resignations, presumably because of the potential for violence etc...I think they are trying to get around being the ones seen to be evicting the protesters, whom the media are now referring to as squatters, or the camp as a squat.

If the anti-squatting laws take effect, the church will not have to do a thing. The police will move in on their own say so...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Tate Modern: http://www.artlyst.com/articles/tate-modern-occupied-by-anti-capitalist-protesters



Someone from LSX said she was at tate modern this morning and there was only one tent which was removed by police and the owner arrested.


----------



## sptme (Nov 1, 2011)

Some peeps wanna reclaim the city at the Lord Mayor's Show 12th November,
http://www.reclaimthecity.org/
Anyone know anymore about this?


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 1, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Someone from LSX said she was at tate modern this morning and there was only one tent which was removed by police and the owner arrested.



I'm gonna stop announcing new occupations now


----------



## kavenism (Nov 1, 2011)

Belushi said:


> What's the thinking behind occupying the Tate?



Perhaps the protestors think J G Ballard's Millennium People was a call to arms rather than the ironic dig directed against middle class rebellion that it is.


----------



## treelover (Nov 1, 2011)

baffled at the relative lack of support for the campaign against the squatting bill, must be thousands of people say in London who will now be evicted...


----------



## stethoscope (Nov 1, 2011)

treelover said:


> baffled at the relative lack of support for the campaign against the squatting bill, must be thousands of people say in London who will now be evicted...



In what respect? People from the occupy movements not being supportive? Or generally?


----------



## friedaweed (Nov 1, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I've lost count of the number of times over the past few weeks when establishment speakers, journalists and others have said "everyone supports the right to protest and free speech _*but*_....."
> 
> The missing bit being "..._*but*_ not when we don't agree/don't like the look of it/ have to look at tents/hippies all day" etc.
> 
> Hypocrites.


Yup NIMBY


----------



## peterkro (Nov 1, 2011)

Old therapy saying "everything before the but is bullshit"


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Nov 1, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> So back to this....so far:
> 
> Any more suggestions to add below the points made below?
> 
> ...




Very much doubting Shelters support.. may be some individual outreach workers... but certainly they havent taken a position on this.... And im sure most brand names and poverty pimps wont either... please dont knock the funding streams/status quo!!!
#
I do know some grassroots groups who are supporters (indeed still waiting to hearing back from organisers for over a week now to address GA or the Uni thingy,  like World Homeless Action Movement and Pilion Trust for example)


----------



## love detective (Nov 1, 2011)

I went down for a bit today to give it another go/chance - after battling my way past a group of people holding a big cross and chanting about Jesus I met a (the?) representative from the British Racial Democratic Party who had centre stage on the steps in front of the cathedral and was promoting their holy book on racial government while also taking the time to give us their thoughts on the evils of homosexuality

This all went one without anyone saying a thing to the guy or telling him to fuck off - I asked him what he was about but couldn't make sense of anything he said

All in all not a great advert for things (not so much the loonies themselves who are bound to pop up everywhere at these things, but the tolerance of them by the camp itself - i tried to speak to the guy about the homophobia thing but there was no sense being made, so it seems everyone just seemed happy to let him have centre stage and push his homophobic shit)


----------



## Luther Blissett (Nov 1, 2011)

The Coalition Government has set about destroying all the state and local authority services that were originally intended to protect and serve vulnerable people in our society.

The responsibility for providing those services for many decades has been democratically elected SECULAR local and national bodies.

The Coalition Government is dismantling those secular services, and now trying to encourage participation from private organisations – religious or private companies or charitable organisations (what’s left of them) – who aren’t accountable to the people, to take charge and run of these public services.

We all need to remember that our focus is on the very real threats now facing the entire country as our public services are dismantled and privatised.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 1, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> The Coalition Government has set about destroying all the state and local authority services that were originally intended to protect and serve vulnerable people in our society.
> 
> The responsibility for providing those services has for many decades were democratically elected SECULAR local and national bodies.
> 
> ...



so people shouldn't try to stop the fash/loons highjacking protests then?


----------



## bingiman (Nov 1, 2011)

You couldn't make some of this stuff up.  What a great day...

On the down side, bad stuff happened at Parliament Square last night and the Tate Modern thing seems to have been squashed
On the other hand, this church thing is big news, while no fan of organised religion they are a part of this society and therefore of the change we need to make in it.  They also own lots of other bits of land of in our beautiful City of London.
Lets just remember the rules of chess, it's not the bishop we are after, it is their queen.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 1, 2011)

king


----------



## bingiman (Nov 1, 2011)

Good point  and probably why I am not leading this revolution 
In my defence, once you have the queen it all goes downhill for the king


----------



## Luther Blissett (Nov 1, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> so people shouldn't try to stop the fash/loons highjacking protests then?


if you want to add to what I've written, then please feel free to do so.

I'm quite sure that no such idea could ever be deduced from any of my posts here on urban75.


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 1, 2011)

LOL 

ETA: Not @LB, but the few posts before.


----------



## love detective (Nov 1, 2011)

i wonder if it had been a white man spouting racist & homophobic shit would it have been so easily ignored/brushed under the carpet/nothing to see here


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 1, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> if you want to add to what I've written, then please feel free to do so.


ok. the problem isn't just "the coalition government". It's also labour as well, who actually started these cuts adn have been in many places the most vociferous implementers of them.

re: the loons, this is also too important to let loons and fash take over protests and drive everyone else away without being challenged on it.


----------



## Luther Blissett (Nov 1, 2011)

I agree that labour were also a problem.

And you're probably aware that I already address the fash/racists/loons whenever they rear their heads. Geoff (Cohen) and myself have been dealing with ressurrection of old anti-jewish bigotry for most of today following the publication of a statement of support from the London Occupy Judaism contingent which I'm invovled in. It's brought all manner of tragic anti-Jewish conspiraloon viewpoints out of the woodwork.

In one thread (OccupyBrum) you appeared to be telling me to leave off addressing the conspiraloons, in this thread you appear to be criticising an unrelated post of mine for not mentioning labour or conspiraloons. Bottom line is this - you don't get to tell me how to spend my time and if you think I haven't addressed something, then you write about it yourself, okay?


----------



## bingiman (Nov 1, 2011)

It will bring everyone out of the woodwork.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 1, 2011)

Its just that your post came across a bit "lets have unity" like ... fair enough tho, and fair play to ya


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 1, 2011)

sorry if i misread your post, it did come across a bit like that to me though.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 1, 2011)

_Guardian_ interview with Bish of London.

My surprise at the extent of St Paul's U-turn has shot up since Graeme Knowles walked. At this rate, wouldn't be shocked if the London folks do end up inside the Cathedral's walls.


----------



## Corax (Nov 1, 2011)

Azrael said:


> _Guardian_ interview with Bish of London.
> 
> My surprise at the extent of St Paul's U-turn has shot up since Graeme Knowles walked. At this rate, wouldn't be shocked if the London folks do end up inside the Cathedral's walls.


I'm not surprised, but I am relieved and pleased.


----------



## ymu (Nov 2, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> If the camp had been at Canary Wharf, assuming they hadn't been forced off within an hour, would it have made as much inpact as the St Paul's camp? I doubt it. It wasn't aimed at the Cathedral, of course, but the clashes that came about has kept this event all over the media, and resulted in two major resignations. They have got more than they bargained for. Fortune can come from the most unexpected places. Que sera sera? (Well, it did all start in Spain.)


I think that's right.

For a start, the City of London itself is a huge issue - a state within a state, a tax haven in its own right and the ultimate sustaining force behind the vast number of other British-run tax havens as well as providing a regulation-lite environment for firms to do what they could not get away with elsewhere (it's where Lehman's based the dodgy trading that brought it down, for example). There needs to be a focus in the UK on the City, even if it's not the only one. Camps/actions in Canary Wharf make sense, of course - but as well as, not instead of, those based in the City.

Secondly, the St Paul's camp, serendipitously or otherwise (bit of both, I think), have stumbled into an area of the City where its a lot harder to get rid of them than just about anywhere else - as we're seeing, with St Paul's backing off legal action because of the immense backlash within and without the CofE and the Corporation delaying serving an eviction notice for a second time this week, and possibly indefinitely.

The few demands published by OLSX so far have been focused on the City of London and the anti-democratic abuses its existence allows - and hides. Whatever else people do or don't want Occupy LSX to be about, this is a very important focus for the UK protests - globally as well as nationally relevant, and virtually impossible for anyone to disagree with whilst maintaining a pretence of honesty. The location is perfect - there are Christians organising for a ring of prayer to resist forcible eviction of the camp ffs! The media are lapping it up, and large sections of even the right-wing press are sympathetic on some of these issues (especially tax avoidance). Which is why, I guess, the City are having a rethink on their PR strategy. They risk blowing this up in their own faces now.

Lunatic fringe aside (and yes, they do need to be marginalised), the City occupiers are doing just fine.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 2, 2011)

sptme said:


> Some peeps wanna reclaim the city at the Lord Mayor's Show 12th November,
> http://www.reclaimthecity.org/
> Anyone know anymore about this?



The Lord Mayor of the City of London, better known as the Chief Oligarch of the Rotten Borough of London.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 2, 2011)

well said ymu


----------



## g force (Nov 2, 2011)

ymu said:


> I think that's right.
> 
> For a start, the City of London itself is a huge issue - a state within a state, a tax haven in its own right and the ultimate sustaining force behind the vast number of other British-run tax havens as well as providing a regulation-lite environment for firms to do what they could not get away with elsewhere (it's where Lehman's based the dodgy trading that brought it down, for example)..



Your post is excellent - apart from that one point,which is factually incorrect. It wasn't UK regulation that let Lehman do what it did it and it wasn't 'trading' in terms of the traditional stock exchnage transactions that was utlimately it's downfall.

One thing that I have somewhat struggled with slightly is why the LSE was targetted...I understand as a symbol of financial services but it's 'power' or 'influence' is pretty minor. That said, the position of the camp is definitely drawing more attention to the issues as anything at Canary Wharf would have been swept away very quickly due to who owns the land.


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Nov 2, 2011)

ymu said:


> . . . For a start, the City of London itself is a huge issue - a state within a state, . . .


More like a local authority surely?


ymu said:


> . . .  and the ultimate sustaining force behind the vast number of other British-run tax havens


Which would be Caymens etc incorporated? I don't understand why it's the "ultimate sustaing force"


ymu said:


> . . .  as well as providing a regulation-lite environment


That's dictated by government legislation not the CoL


ymu said:


> The few demands published by OLSX so far have been focused on the City of London and the anti-democratic abuses its existence allows - and hides.


How many CoL residents did they consult over these "demands"?



g force said:


> One thing that I have somewhat struggled with slightly is why the LSE was targetted...


Quite, wanna do some serious "in your face" damage? Find out where the LSE's servers are and camp outside there (serious)


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 2, 2011)

> How many CoL residents did they consult over these "demands"?



How many CoF residents are there? 11,700. The City has few permanent residents. Most everyone goes home to the Home Counties at the end of the working day.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 2, 2011)

@ A Dashing Blade: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/31/corporation-london-city-medieval


----------



## OneStrike (Nov 2, 2011)

^that.  To call the City of London simply 'a local authority' is a little way off reality!


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2011)

17,000 business votes vs 6,000-odd residents votes. That's not a local authority, that's a captured city.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 2, 2011)

A Dashing Blade said:


> More like a local authority surely?


It's nothing like any other local authority in the country.

Too much information to transpose but read the City of London wiki and you should get the idea about the vested business interests and so on.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2011)

love detective said:


> I went down for a bit today to give it another go/chance - after battling my way past a group of people holding a big cross and chanting about Jesus I met a (the?) representative from the British Racial Democratic Party who had centre stage on the steps in front of the cathedral and was promoting their holy book on racial government while also taking the time to give us their thoughts on the evils of homosexuality
> 
> This all went one without anyone saying a thing to the guy or telling him to fuck off - I asked him what he was about but couldn't make sense of anything he said
> 
> All in all not a great advert for things (not so much the loonies themselves who are bound to pop up everywhere at these things, but the tolerance of them by the camp itself - i tried to speak to the guy about the homophobia thing but there was no sense being made, so it seems everyone just seemed happy to let him have centre stage and push his homophobic shit)



I wasn't there but heard about this guy 'disrupting' the GA and things getting a bit messy. Did you see that?


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Nov 2, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> It's nothing like any other local authority in the country.
> 
> Too much information to transpose but read the City of London wiki and you should get the idea about the vested business interests and so on.


More than aware (personal experience) that I live and work in the most undemocratic part of mainland UK thank you.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 2, 2011)

Dreckmeister, Toby Young describes the #OccupyLSX camp as being "revolutionary socialists". The last paragraph is vintage.



> If the Archbishop of Canterbury and the St Paul's protestors really want to address inequality, they should forget about bashing the bankers and start thinking about how to increase educational opportunities. A good place to start would be by making a donation to the West London Free School.
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/t...olutionary-socialists-camped-out-at-st-pauls/



Is his vanity school really that short of cash that he has to appeal to those he smears for donations? What a cunt.


----------



## love detective (Nov 2, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I wasn't there but heard about this guy 'disrupting' the GA and things getting a bit messy. Did you see that?



Didn't see that (as couldn't really bear to spend that much time there, was a fairly alienating experience once again i'm afraid) -  but he was shown way too much tolerance from the get go so not surprised as what you said - everyone was just glancing at their shoes and pretending he wasn't there while he rattled out his shit (equating homosexuality with pedophilia& bestiality for example), didn't seem to be any kind of personal or collective responsibility to confront him


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2011)

love detective said:


> Didn't see that (as couldn't really bear to spend that much time there, was a fairly alienating experience once again i'm afraid) - but he was shown way too much tolerance from the get go so not surprised as what you said - everyone was just glancing at their shoes and pretending he wasn't there while he rattled out his shit (equating homosexuality with pedophilia& bestiality for example), didn't seem to be any kind of personal or collective responsibility to confront him


You do seem to put yourself in the company (on the net and in real life) of people you can't stand politically? Is this a general masochism or can we expect long debates between you and your local Tories?


----------



## Kizmet (Nov 2, 2011)

Turn around and walk off. No better message than disdain. They have the right to say their shit and you have the right to lead everyone else away.


----------



## love detective (Nov 2, 2011)

TopCat said:


> You do seem to put yourself in the company (on the net and in real life) of people you can't stand politically? Is this a general masochism or can we expect long debates between you and your local Tories?



maybe you're right - but when something like that occupy thing is going on in the city where you live, no matter what your preconceptions are about it, it would be stupid not to visit a few times to at least give it a chance to prove you wrong (or me right) - and also just out of morbid curiosity i thought it was worth visiting a few times. There does seem to be some odd/weird currents developing at the moment, so got to at least take a look at them to see what the hell's going on around us


----------



## TopCat (Nov 2, 2011)

I think you and the IWCA generally think that you have it all nutted out and just feel frustrated that others don't swamp you with applications to join and offers of help.

I blame a few things for this reluctance, from the historical associations with Red Action, to the intransigent attitude of some of your more vocal and long standing members, to the simple fail/fall at first post name IE IWCA. For me it's more the latter PLUS the articles on the IWCA website that seem to belong in academia.


----------



## Kizmet (Nov 2, 2011)

love detective said:


> maybe you're right - but when something like that occupy thing is going on in the city where you live, no matter what your preconceptions are about it, it would be stupid not to visit a few times to at least give it a chance to prove you wrong (or me right) - and also just out of morbid curiosity i thought it was worth visiting a few times. There does seem to be some odd/weird currents developing at the moment, so got to at least take a look at them to see what the hell's going on around us



Impartial observers. Wonderful.


----------



## gunneradt (Nov 2, 2011)

love detective said:


> maybe you're right - but when something like that occupy thing is going on in the city where you live, no matter what your preconceptions are about it, it would be stupid not to visit a few times to at least give it a chance to prove you wrong (or me right) - and also just out of morbid curiosity i thought it was worth visiting a few times. There does seem to be some odd/weird currents developing at the moment, so got to at least take a look at them to see what the hell's going on around us



I look forward to seeing how they cope with the freezing weather over the next few months!!


----------



## ddraig (Nov 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I look forward to seeing how they cope with the freezing weather over the next few months!!


hilarious as usual! 

do you consider yourself part of the 1% then?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I look forward to seeing how they cope with the freezing weather over the next few months!!



The way they seem to be going at the moment it wouldn't surprise me if they've figured out various eco-friendly heating technologies by the spring...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2011)

Btw, in 2001 1500 workers were laid off by the Spanish version of BT. They set up a makeshift camp in Madrid city centre for 8 months. this is what put the idea in the Spanish heads - it was then taken up by the 2003 anti-war protests. It didn't come out of thin air this year but from real class struggle. A film was made about the occupation at the Camp of Hope in madrid -   El efecto Iguazú. It can be watched on youtube from here onwards but without subs.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2011)

love detective said:


> Didn't see that (as couldn't really bear to spend that much time there, was a fairly alienating experience once again i'm afraid) - but he was shown way too much tolerance from the get go so not surprised as what you said - everyone was just glancing at their shoes and pretending he wasn't there while he rattled out his shit (equating homosexuality with pedophilia& bestiality for example), didn't seem to be any kind of personal or collective responsibility to confront him



So...did you actually talk to anyone else or attend any talks/workshops/meetings/lectures whilst you were there?


----------



## Corax (Nov 2, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I look forward to seeing how they cope with the freezing weather over the next few months!!


If only people had invented ways of surviving out of doors at low temperatures.


----------



## dylans (Nov 3, 2011)

So the occupiers are considering an offer by St Pauls to allow them to stay if they reduce the number of tents. Doesn't this defeat the whole point of the occupation? I mean if they reduce (or even promise to keep the number the same) then the whole point of building a protest movement is defeated. What is the point of an occupation protest if it can't grow? Surely the point isn't for a couple of hundred tents to stay for the sake of it but for the occupation to grow into a mass movement. I seriously hope they don't accept this offer.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> I look forward to seeing how they cope with the freezing weather over the next few months!!



Rather better than you do at engaging in any meaningful discussion, is my bet.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## gunneradt (Nov 3, 2011)

Ther


ddraig said:


> hilarious as usual!
> 
> do you consider yourself part of the 1% then?



There is no 1%.  This is some spurious figure plucked out of thin air.

Im just someone who gets on with life without whinging about my lot or feeling aggrieved because others have more than me


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> There is no 1%. This is some spurious figure plucked out of thin air.



Of course it is, dear.

This is a cross-thread quote from the Occupy Wall Street thread....



yield said:


> Income inequality in America
> The 99 percent
> The Economist. Oct 26th 2011
> 
> ...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Ther
> 
> There is no 1%. This is some spurious figure plucked out of thin air.
> 
> Im just someone who gets on with life without whinging about my lot or feeling aggrieved because others have more than me



Thanks for so ably proving my earlier point.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Belushi (Nov 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Ther
> 
> There is no 1%. This is some spurious figure plucked out of thin air.
> 
> Im just someone who gets on with life without whinging about my lot or feeling aggrieved because others have more than me



You know your place eh? Get angry when others don't know theirs?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 3, 2011)

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate.
God made them high and lowly
And ordered their estate.

etc.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 3, 2011)

Alternatively...

'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free
'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
Twill be in the valley of love and delight.
When true simplicity is gain'd,To bow and to bend we shan't be asham'd,
To turn, turn will be our delight,
Till by turning, turning we come 'round right.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## love detective (Nov 3, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I think you and the IWCA generally think that you have it all nutted out



And this is in marked contrast to any other political group/individual on the left or indeed anywhere on the political spectrum is it!

What's the point in having, and more importantly attempting to convince others of, a particular political outlook if you don't have confidence in it? Show me anyone on the left who is active in politics who would say that they are not convinced by their own politics and i'll spend a week in a tent at St Pauls!

Everyone makes mistakes but i'd say one thing that differentiates the IWCA from others on the left is the effort to feed back lessons learned from those mistakes into future thinking & activity. THis is in stark contrast to the ever decreasing circles of failed left projects from the socialist alliance onwards.

And this is pretty much the story of the IWCA - an attempt to not just ideologically but practically redress the mistakes of the left approach over the last couple of decades. And despite the clear failure of this approach to grow beyond the initial pilot schemes, it did show that a determined, sustained, practical and progressive orientation to working class issues within the community is met with a level of acceptance & fresh new support that the conservative left never gets. And more importantly this approach is starting to be emulated by other groups in their approach (for example the new community strategy of solidarity federation is heavily influenced by the IWCA approach)



> and just feel frustrated that others don't swamp you with applications to join and offers of help.
> 
> I blame a few things for this reluctance, from the historical associations with Red Action, to the intransigent attitude of some of your more vocal and long standing members, to the simple fail/fall at first post name IE IWCA. For me it's more the latter PLUS the articles on the IWCA website that seem to belong in academia.



well firstly the IWCA nationally for some time hasn't even tried to get people to join (one reason for this I would say is because the success of the IWCA approach is far more important that the success of the IWCA as an organisation)

As for your reasons for people's reluctance - you're basing this on an idea of the targeted group (if there was a target group) being the existing left itself,so while the reasons you give may apply if that was the case (as they are mainly stuff that only existing lefties would be bothered about), it's not.


----------



## love detective (Nov 3, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> So...did you actually talk to anyone else or attend any talks/workshops/meetings/lectures whilst you were there?



talked to a few people - didn't fancy any of the talks/workshops/meetings/lectures - are they compulsory?


----------



## ddraig (Nov 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Ther
> 
> There is no 1%. This is some spurious figure plucked out of thin air.
> 
> Im just someone who gets on with life without whinging about my lot or feeling aggrieved because others have more than me


such a good citizen! bless
gets on with life! so nothing has changed for you or your mum/gran/family? nothing has changed for any (god forbid) offspring you have spawned? you don't moan about petrol prices or other taxes? everything is A OK and the bankers work hard for their money is it?
tickety boo bullshit


----------



## love detective (Nov 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Im just someone who gets on with life without whinging about my lot or feeling aggrieved because others have more than me



_"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man"_


----------



## love detective (Nov 3, 2011)

and obviously unreasonable women, don't forget unreasonable women


----------



## krink (Nov 3, 2011)

think 5Live are doing something about occupy this morning if anyone wants to ring 'em.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2011)

love detective said:


> and obviously unreasonable women, don't forget unreasonable women



never met one


----------



## TopCat (Nov 3, 2011)

love detective said:


> And this is in marked contrast to any other political group/individual on the left or indeed anywhere on the political spectrum is it!
> 
> What's the point in having, and more importantly attempting to convince others of, a particular political outlook if you don't have confidence in it? Show me anyone on the left who is active in politics who would say that they are not convinced by their own politics and i'll spend a week in a tent at St Pauls!
> 
> ...



You make some very good points.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 3, 2011)

gunneradt said:


> Im just someone who gets on with life without whinging about my lot or feeling aggrieved because others have more than me


no, you're someone who whinges about the way other people live their lives. even sadder.


----------



## treelover (Nov 3, 2011)

some idiot has just put this on the Olsx FB page

sorry, it hasn't worked, image of jewish star of david, with 'Swindlers List' blazoned across something about Rothschild and bankers and US Financial figures like Timothy Geitner on the points...

The image was posted by *'Huned Lokhandwala'*


----------



## treelover (Nov 3, 2011)

'March to Parliament

*Speakers:
*Caroline Lucas MP
John Pilger​Seumas Milne – Guardian​Kate Hudson – Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND)​Josie Long – UK Uncut & award-winning comedian​
Aaron Kiely, NUS Black Students’ Campaign
Stef Newton, NUS LGBT Campaign & National Campaign Against Fees & Cuts​Weymam Bennett, Unite Against Fascism'​
oh dear, haven't they learn't anything in the last month? it could be a STW roster...


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 3, 2011)

I think the speakers were put together by other people weren't they? The march from st paul's is in support. Not necessarily of the speakers....


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 3, 2011)

> After just over two weeks, our tented city standing in the protective shadow of St Paul’s Cathedral is a becoming a real community. But we are still part of London and we share some of the problems of that great city.
> 
> London is the 5th wealthiest city in the world and one of the world’s major financial centres – yet, despite this apparent prosperity and technological progress, there are still Londoners without homes, structure and support. What happens in London every day is merely a reflection of the increasing global disparity between rich and poor and unfair distribution of wealth.
> 
> ...


http://occupylsx.org/?p=760


----------



## smokedout (Nov 3, 2011)

have people been turning up asking to be signposted to drug and alcohol addition (sic)  and mental health advice services?


----------



## treelover (Nov 3, 2011)

in London, you are joking aren't you?


----------



## smokedout (Nov 3, 2011)

i didnt say have people been turning up. read my question


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 4, 2011)

Articles from the Occupy movement worldwide.

http://www.elindignado.eu/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 4, 2011)

Jamming in the surplus tent at Occupy LSX on live stream now:

http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 4, 2011)

Sunny Hundal: shill for capitalism



> I want to make a broader argument, but first need to deal with a small point raised by Owen Jones in his front-page piece in the New Statesman this week.
> “[Labour] are missing the boat,” John McDonnell MP tells Owen Jones on the issue of the occupations. Editor of Occupied Times Steve Maclean tells him: “I think a lot of people are very disappointed that there’s this grass-roots movement and sentiment, and Labour isn’t leading or driving it.”
> I’m sorry but this is highly naive.
> 
> ...


----------



## articul8 (Nov 4, 2011)

eh, if Labour was leading or driving it then it wouldn't be a grassroots movement?    Christ alone knows what Ed is "channeling" but it's more like the spirit of someone who hasn't a fucking clue.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

Isn't that exactly what you want your party to do though? You are to all intents this boards hundal.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 4, 2011)

articul8 said:


> eh, if Labour was leading or driving it then it wouldn't be a grassroots movement?  Christ alone knows what Ed is "channeling" but it's more like the spirit of someone who hasn't a fucking clue.


Hundal hasn't got a clue. First he tells people to vote Lib Dem and then when the LDs are in power with the Tories, he becomes a Labour (EdM) supporter.

Labour don't take the lead and haven't done for as long as I can remember. They're too busy worrying about what the Tory press will think of them.

Keir Hardie must be spinning in his grave.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 4, 2011)

Of course they wouldn't lead it, what do you expect? you're being a bit unrealistic if you expect them to do so!


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 4, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Of course they wouldn't lead it, what do you expect? you're being a bit unrealistic if you expect them to do so!



Exactly.


----------



## articul8 (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Isn't that exactly what you want your party to do though? You are to all intents this boards hundal.



fuck off, how do you make that out?  I "want" forces inside and outside the Labour party to take the idea of an alternative economic strategy much further than the soggy plan-B stuff spoken of by Balls.  Where have I ever talked of the Labour leadership taking over the effective leadership of extra-parliamentary movements.  it is neither feasible nor desirable.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

You're the 'radical' PR face of the we must open up ideas and people outside of labour that MIliband has put forward, hundal is the middle of the road face. Same function. Same end in aim - join labour,vote labour, labour lead us. Stop lying to yourself.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'March to Parliament
> 
> *Speakers:*​Caroline Lucas MP​John Pilger​Seumas Milne – Guardian​Kate Hudson – Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND)​Josie Long – UK Uncut & award-winning comedian​
> Aaron Kiely, NUS Black Students’ Campaign​Stef Newton, NUS LGBT Campaign & National Campaign Against Fees & Cuts​Weymam Bennett, Unite Against Fascism'​
> oh dear, haven't they learn't anything in the last month? it could be a STW roster...


*No  Gunpowder. No Treason. No plot.*

Why not?


----------



## articul8 (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You're the 'radical' PR face of the we must open up ideas and people outside of labour that MIliband has put forward, hundal is the middle of the road face. Same function. Same end in aim - join labour,vote labour, labour lead us. Stop lying to yourself.



I'm arguing specifically _against_ "Labour lead us" - that Labour leadership of extra-parliamentary struggles is neither feasible nor desirable...  But then you're not actually engaging with me, you're involved in some kind of psychotic conversation with another creature of your imagination.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

articul8 said:


> I'm arguing specifically _against_ "Labour lead us" - that Labour leadership of extra-parliamentary struggles is neither feasible nor desirable... But then you're not actually engaging with me, you're involved in some kind of psychotic conversation with another creature of your imagination.


Keep them in the background, their presence will not help the party. Let them come to us organically. Gotcha.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

This beast truly lives btw, he strides the land, he offers congrats to slimy blairists on promotion whilst talking left  on here.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 4, 2011)

LM associate Ed West, chips in with another smear. This time he says,


> Do the Occupy LSX protesters seriously think they're the British equivalent of Syria's rebels?
> 
> Nothing wrong with supporting the Syrian uprising, of course, and it’s interesting to see how technology can be used against authoritarian regimes (although the technology failed this time). But, once again, all sympathy for the Occupy movement disappears when they open their mouths: one activist is heard saying of the Syrians that “all our movements are components of the same thing”, while another claims that “Syria is part of the Occupation movement.” And a Syrian responds that they’re “similar causes”, claiming that “they’re fighting for their freedom against capitalism; we have our fight for freedom”.
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/e...ian-opposition-are-part-of-the-same-movement/



Trust West to be dishonest. The neoliberal system that allowed the bankers to behave as they did has us all in chains. In that respect we are both fighting a similar fight. In Syria the fight is against a tyrannical regime and in the West, we're fighting against a capitalist system that may as well be a tyranny. I mean, no one asked to have services cut or privatised. In that sense alone, we live in a tyranny and if people like Ed West had their way the #Occupy camp would be broken up with extreme force.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> *No Gunpowder. No Treason. No plot.*
> 
> Why not?


 
Whats Pilger got on his charge sheet?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

Nothing expect allowing himself to be used over and over as a front.


----------



## articul8 (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> This beast truly lives btw, he strides the land, he offers congrats to slimy blairists on promotion whilst talking left on here.



Quite flattering having your own stalker. I've nothing to hide - which is why you know who I am or at least what my real name is (clearly you know much less than you think you do). I'm quite capable of having heated political arguments with people whilst at the same time remaining civil on a personal level. I see you aren't.


----------



## articul8 (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Keep them in the background, their presence will not help the party. Let them come to us organically. Gotcha.


Another intra-skull debate going on I see...


----------



## kavenism (Nov 4, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> LM associate Ed West, chips in with another smear. This time he says,
> 
> Trust West to be dishonest. The neoliberal system that allowed the bankers to behave as they did has us all in chains. In that respect we are both fighting a similar fight. In Syria the fight is against a tyrannical regime and in the West, we're fighting against a capitalist system that may as well be a tyranny. I mean, no one asked to have services cut or privatised. In that sense alone, we live in a tyranny and if people like Ed West had their way the #Occupy camp would be broken up with extreme force.


 
I think this is something of an oversimplification.  However, I do recall a quite prescient passage in Hannah Arendt’s book on violence where she argues that faceless bureaucracies (which I think better characterises our situation than the authoritarian sovereign rule of Syria)  are the most tyrannical of all, not least as there doesn’t seem to be anyone to address your demands or direct your anger. In fact I think much of what’s going on in the Occupy movement is a symptom of this very problem.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 4, 2011)

Issue two of the London Occupied Times:

*http://theoccupiedtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/OT-ISSUE-02_small.pdf*


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

God I weep for the hegemony of this thread's slight internet presence. Like peeps waving their hands in the air while sitting in chairs.


----------



## love detective (Nov 4, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Issue two of the London Occupied Times:
> 
> *http://theoccupiedtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/OT-ISSUE-02_small.pdf*



That whole article by the Positive Money guy is really bad and factually inaccurate - pure conspiracy type theory approach


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

Naughty consumers - eating their tea. From what is supposed to be a structural systemic analysis.


----------



## love detective (Nov 4, 2011)

half decent article against 'anarchism' from brian whelan in there


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

And where does one situate the armchair applauder within this system? Naughty; taking meals; the Faceless Bureaucracies etc.

Have I stumbled into a depression symposium too manic to acknowledge any discourse outside its own? Or is this one of them frilly frames for which Urban's (not) famous?


----------



## love detective (Nov 4, 2011)

_how dare you talk about stuff_


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

No idea. Wine. Fury.
This isn't the Guardian bollox you know...

Or it didn't used to be.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

teahead said:


> No idea. Wine. Fury.
> This isn't the Guardian bollox you know...
> 
> Or it didn't used to be.


Tell you what teahead. Say something. If you're not going to, then don't.


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

http://www.hark.com/clips/mmfxmflhdv-will-you-go-to-lunch


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Tell you what teahead. Say something. If you're not going to, then don't.


But yes fair enough. And goodness how far I'm having to reach back into this thread to find something to respond to. You old grouches. Gimme a second Mr Butchers. What is there to be said? A rhetorical sitaution hardly resides on some margin message board that believes it's well regarded by some poxy Grub Street.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

.





teahead said:


> But yes fair enough. And goodness how far I'm having to reach back into this thread to find something to respond to. You old grouches. Gimme a second Mr Butchers. What is there to be said? A rhetorical sitaution hardly resides on some margin message board that believes it's well regarded by some poxy Grub Street.


Nah, not interested. Fake weirdo.

Say something or die.


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

And my present experience indicates that the kinds of peeps making decisions are so entrenched and cossetted in being babies that intellgent debate is just a side lineline, a show and an entertainment. Power seems to reside more than ever with the coteries. For me personally, I'm just trying to elaborate a word pool in which my language can get some breath. Self-serving and poncey I know, but if you mean to strike out against the fat massy arse, you need to have a lungful first innit.


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> .
> Nah, not interested. Fake weirdo.
> 
> Say something or die.


Giggles BA. I like you for your rep anyhoo


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

What a delightful contrived 'word for another thing' world you live in. Can you move it and you to a more appropriate thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2011)

teahead said:


> Giggles BA. I like you for your rep anyhoo


Move it.


----------



## teahead (Nov 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What a delightful contrived 'word for another thing' world you live in. Can you move it to more appropriate thread?


Sure. I'll leave you to your Bacchantes.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 5, 2011)

love detective said:


> That whole article by the Positive Money guy is really bad and factually inaccurate - pure conspiracy type theory approach



So....write something yourself that is _factually accurate_ and send it in to the occupation for it to be published. They are taking submissions for the next Issue already.


----------



## Blagsta (Nov 5, 2011)

teahead said:


> And my present experience indicates that the kinds of peeps making decisions are so entrenched and cossetted in being babies that intellgent debate is just a side lineline, a show and an entertainment. Power seems to reside more than ever with the coteries. For me personally, I'm just trying to elaborate a word pool in which my language can get some breath. Self-serving and poncey I know, but if you mean to strike out against the fat massy arse, you need to have a lungful first innit.


Do you talk like you type?


----------



## IC3D (Nov 5, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Do you talk like you type?


Only to his coteries.


----------



## teahead (Nov 5, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> Do you talk like you type?


No . Also I was drunk.

The worthiness of the thread got me pissed off though. Capitalism's falling apart all by itself: a process and the consequence of an increasingly interdependent world. Anxiety about diminishing resources and the spoiling of existing ones (global warming, pollution, how power's shared and distributed etc) seem a driver too. Protest is about as useful and influential as democracy in these contexts. People use it to look good but it's all bullshit in terms of changing anything. Change will happen when the rich are suffering and fear they're loosing control - not before.

Take these guys for example: http://www.gold.org/
They've recently set up a work group to frame and negotiate international legislation to clean up 'blood diamonds' and gold with a dodgy provenance. They'll succeed, and the result will be, partly, to succeed in hiding or burying abuses and murder.

This lilliputian thing here... Tssss. Actually, maybe it's about time to think again about distributing minced rioter burgers as nourishment for the unemployed? (Swift - I'm not being earnest)

e2a - or (more practically put) change will happen when the current wealth/power distrubution suits a minority that's unable to maintain itself. Whatever concessions that are eventually made will be tiny - just enough to keep power where it is. Or that's how it looks to me. All the same, the thread's liberal sentiments are of course marvellous.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 5, 2011)

kavenism said:


> I think this is something of an oversimplification. However, I do recall a quite prescient passage in Hannah Arendt’s book on violence where she argues that faceless bureaucracies (which I think better characterises our situation than the authoritarian sovereign rule of Syria) are the most tyrannical of all, not least as there doesn’t seem to be anyone to address your demands or direct your anger. In fact I think much of what’s going on in the Occupy movement is a symptom of this very problem.


I keep hearing the protest's detractors telling us how the protesters should use "democratic" means. it seems to me that some people have a rather odd view of democracy if they're against people protesting.

Yes, we seem to be living in a real life version of Terry Gilliam's_ Brazil_.


----------



## teahead (Nov 5, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> I keep hearing the protest's detractors telling us how the protesters should use "democratic" means.


It's a ruse. "Democratic means" rely on the power of the individual in relation to the State. Whereas political power is now safeguarded cleverly in processes that are much more effective in undermining personal integrity. It's near impossible to take the kind of clear position that democracy requires - too much at stake in an age that makes such heavy demands towards conformity.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

You think all this has happened by the system just carrying on - 'falling apart all by itself'? The system hasn't been forced to react by any pressures other than itself and that those pressures haven't forced it to react in ways that undermine it's wider functioning? Just how far in the past do you live?



teahead said:


> No . Also I was drunk.
> 
> The worthiness of the thread got me pissed off though. Capitalism's falling apart all by itself: a process and the consequence of an increasingly interdependent world. Anxiety about diminishing resources and the spoiling of existing ones (global warming, pollution, how power's shared and distributed etc) seem a driver too. Protest is about as useful and influential as democracy in these contexts. People use it to look good but it's all bullshit in terms of changing anything. Change will happen when the rich are suffering and fear they're loosing control - not before.


----------



## teahead (Nov 5, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You think all this has happened by the system just carrying on - 'falling apart all by itself'? The system hasn't been forced to react by any pressures other than itself and that those pressures haven't forced it to react in ways that undermine it's wider functioning? Just how far in the past do you live?


Well it depends what limits you put on the boundaries of the system, doesn't it? And which currents within the system are prevailing, no?

No idea what you mean by "living in the past" - is that just the usual willy waving BA?


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

No. I mean you a have a view of capital and its functioning that is seriously out of date and reminds me of the sort of thing put forward in the 19th century - machine based thinking.

Does it depends on that? You made a claim, i disagree with the claim, i think capital has been chased around the globe and forced to attempt all manner of restructurings by the actions of the w/c. It is being driven - it is not the driver. The result is the current crisis. Are you going to try and say that this is the system, all this is within its boundaries? Bit of a weak get out if so, and one that ignores the subjective element, back to the machine.


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## treelover (Nov 5, 2011)

'*2pm – Rally for a just society *– Marking our three week anniversary, we will be hosting a rally at St Paul’s Churchyard calling for a fairer, more just society. Beginning at 2pm, prominent speakers will advocate a range of progressive alternatives for the 99% who have been forced to help pay for a crisis that they did not create. After this people will be going to join the Jarrow marchers at Trafalgar Square. Speakers include: *Caroline Lucas MP, John Pilger, Bruce Kent (CND), Seumas Milne (The Guardian), Kate Hudson (CND), Josie Long (UK Uncut/comedian), Aaron Kiely (NUS Black Students’ Campaign), Stef Newton (NUS LGBT Campaign & National Campaign Against Fees & Cuts), Weyman Bennett (Unite Against Fascism), Lindsey German (Stop the War Coalition)*. More details at [URL='http://occupylsx.org/?p=776'']http://occupylsx.org/?p[/URL]=776'

Oh dear, the venerable Lindseys been added to the speaker list, only Rees and Nineham left out now! I thought this was the new politics, i'm sure there are some great speakers if you have to have rallies amongst the OSLX themselves....


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## teahead (Nov 5, 2011)

I think we're at cross-purposes here BA, and perhaps even in agreement about capital to the extent that it's a motivator of processes rather than a thing-in-itself. There are many different crises arising from present global circumstances though, no? Interlinked ones. Or can you put a finger on the most significant one?


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2011)

I don't think we are at cross purposes. I think you're just waffling and trying to sound clever.

The revolt against the factory and the subsequent rise in the social wage in the developed countries  in the latter half of the 60s through until the 80s that forced down the average rate of profit and led to productive capital heading for the financial/speculative sector and financialising the domestic economy (your pension, social-reproduction- i.education, health etc) and dismantling the established chains of real production (i.e moving them away) is pretty clearly the most significant series. Maybe that's just capital being capital though.


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## treelover (Nov 5, 2011)

can you take your argument to the wider discussion thread on the occupy movement, best to keep this for news, etc...


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## treelover (Nov 5, 2011)

Apparently, the rally has been organised by COR and the OSLX are just supporting it, be careful, don't get co-opted, something new is being born..

Oh, and has it been organised to distract from the New Jarrow March which is of course organised by the SP?.

they are also getting involved in the teach-ins

*7pm – International democracy panel at TCU with Joel Lazarus, Claes Belfrage , Richard Seymour, Alex Callinicos*


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## teahead (Nov 5, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I don't think we are at cross purposes. I think you're just waffling and trying to sound clever.
> 
> The revolt against the factory and the subsequent rise in the social wage in the developed countries in the latter half of the 60s through until the 80s that forced down the average rate of profit and led to productive capital heading for the financial/speculative sector and financialising the domestic economy (your pension, social-reproduction- i.education, health etc) and dismantling the established chains of real production (i.e moving them away) is pretty clearly the most significant series. Maybe that's just capital being capital though.


You're a testy bugger BA! And rude at the drop of a hat... as per Blagsta's query directed at me, do you talk in the way that you write?

I'd certainly quibble with your "revolt against the factory" perspective. Otherwise some of the things you've said here are interesting but hardly the last word on the subject. You're certainly succeeding in sounding clever though. Well done!

In any case the only point I mean to make is that the occupy movement fails to engage with the real drivers behind what's going wrong (not just with capital, surely; not just as a consequence of problems with capital either). To me, democracy and oppositional politics seem hopelessly outdated if you like to look at things in a time frame. From the point of view of processes and systems development, I'd say they've been superceded and co-opted. I'm not in any way suggesting that's the only narrative, only that it's one worthy of consideration. As you point out yourself, subjectivity is inevitably an issue.


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## teahead (Nov 5, 2011)

treelover said:


> can you take your argument to the wider discussion thread on the occupy movement, best to keep this for news, etc...


Sorry yep.


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## kavenism (Nov 5, 2011)

teahead said:


> It's a ruse. "Democratic means" rely on the power of the individual in relation to the State. Whereas political power is now safeguarded cleverly in processes that are much more effective in undermining personal integrity. It's near impossible to take the kind of clear position that democracy requires - too much at stake in an age that makes such heavy demands towards conformity.



I think that's pretty much right, although I think you might be conflating Democratic with Juridical means. Juridical in the sense of individual rights and liberties in relation to the state, old social contract stuff. But you are right sovereignty today is a thoroughly moot concept in the face of the majority of relations of power existing outside the control of juridical forms of law. This is why I just don't get some of the protestors who frame the argument in terms of 'the banks' or whoever having perverted our sovereign rights, as if this way of doing politics in the west hadn’t died about 60 years ago.


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## teahead (Nov 5, 2011)

.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 5, 2011)

Rally at LSX showing now on the livestream:

http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


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## ddraig (Nov 5, 2011)

will on the live stream


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## ddraig (Nov 5, 2011)

this young lady and those with her are doing a brilliant job


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 5, 2011)

Kettled outside parliment...


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## ddraig (Nov 5, 2011)

and the plod have given them a football to play with 
weird


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## treelover (Nov 5, 2011)

booze and sound system at Occupy Sheffield, bad move, imo...


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 5, 2011)

ddraig said:


> and the plod have given them a football to play with
> weird



It was their ball that got kicked outside the kettle...the protesters asked for it back


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## ddraig (Nov 5, 2011)

oh fair enough
ta for clarification


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## smokedout (Nov 5, 2011)

treelover said:


> booze and sound system at Occupy Sheffield, bad move, imo...



yeah, heaven forbid anyone might actually enjoy themselves


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## Luther Blissett (Nov 5, 2011)

It could be an idea for a lawyer/legal rep to look over the following: 

Before the Norman Conquest, the Saxon rule of law granted London exceptional privileges; a Folk Moot met three times a year; the Husting (Danish: hus-thing i.e.-house assembly) - met every week. 

In 1215AD, Clause 13 of the Magna Carta stated "The City of London shall have all the old Liberties and Customs which it hath been used to have" (this became Clause 9 of the 1297AD version). 

This is one of three clauses of the Magna Carta which remain active today, not yet repealed by the Statute law (Repeals) Act 1969 .

Thus, the legal right (and liberty) for a weekly General Assembly at the site of Paul's Cross, City of London (CoL) appears to still be enshrined by the same medieval laws which give the CoL it's special status today.

The first historically recorded General Assembly was in 1236AD. when the King's Justice John Mansell let it be known that Henry III desired that "the citizens of London be ruled with virtue, that the liberties of the city be maintained, and that any person who vexed the citizens should be grievously punished for the example of others."

This liberty, to grievously punish those who vex the citizens, and the demand that the citizens of London be ruled with virtue, combined with the rights to General Assembly at that site itself, appear to still be enshrined by these most ancient laws of the City of London. 

These ancient rights are exactly what Occupy London Stock Exchange at St. Paul's ask for today with their General Assemblies.If the site occupied and currently threatened with removal by the CoL request for High Court injection, even though the CofE has said they could stay is moved to site of St Paul's Cross, it might be far harder to remove them. Also, possibly summons to the various Politicians and Corporations could be made to attend the Hustings/Folkmoot site to answer to the People/Citizens.

*in contrast to the frankly cranky (sorry!) Freemen of the Land view of Magna Carta & what's still lawful/legal!.


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## cantsin (Nov 5, 2011)

teahead said:


> You're a testy bugger BA! And rude at the drop of a hat... as per Blagsta's query directed at me, do you talk in the way that you write?
> 
> I'd certainly quibble with your "revolt against the factory" perspective. Otherwise some of the things you've said here are interesting but hardly the last word on the subject. You're certainly succeeding in sounding clever though. Well done!
> 
> In any case the only point I mean to make is that the occupy movement fails to engage with the real drivers behind what's going wrong (not just with capital, surely; not just as a consequence of problems with capital either). To me, democracy and oppositional politics seem hopelessly outdated if you like to look at things in a time frame. From the point of view of processes and systems development, I'd say they've been superceded and co-opted. I'm not in any way suggesting that's the only narrative, only that it's one worthy of consideration. As you point out yourself, subjectivity is inevitably an issue.



lulz, as pointed out, it's just all waffle, what's the point ?


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 5, 2011)

I've got an idea. Instead of trying to challenge the establishment by occupying places, why don't they blow up the Houses of Parliament? I bet no one's thought of that before.


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## AKA pseudonym (Nov 6, 2011)

radio 5 are broadcasting now from St. Pauls...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/bbc_radio_five_live


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## AKA pseudonym (Nov 6, 2011)

smokedout said:


> have people been turning up asking to be signposted to drug and alcohol addition (sic) and mental health advice services?


Any news?
I am aware of individual 'outreach' workers present... though in a non-co-ordinated manner.... Im trying to arrange designated times where 'informed' people could be present as tbh: it is important that any advisory roles involve those in the know... Heaps of advertised projects for example are no longer in existence... I'm co-ordinating with the Pavement mag to ensure copies are available and their listings are up to date...
btw: almost all the people I know there in the 'services' are there in a personal capacity not in the employ of Poverty Pimps....


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## newbie (Nov 6, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> It could be an idea for a lawyer/legal rep to look over the following:
> 
> Before the Norman Conquest, the Saxon rule of law granted London exceptional privileges; a Folk Moot met three times a year; the Husting (Danish: hus-thing i.e.-house assembly) - met every week.
> 
> ...


leaving aside how pointless all this archaic legalism is, you'll need to consider definitions, most notable "citizens of London" are almost certainly only going to include landowners within the square mile, and possibly only the self-same aldermen, freemen and so on that control it all now. Might even only include nobility. It's wishful thinking to expect something that old to recognise 'citizen' in the same way as we do post-enlightenment.

Unless you know different, of course.


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## Kaka Tim (Nov 6, 2011)

....


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## AKA pseudonym (Nov 6, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Any news?
> I am aware of individual 'outreach' workers present... though in a non-co-ordinated manner.... Im trying to arrange designated times where 'informed' people could be present as tbh: it is important that any advisory roles involve those in the know... Heaps of advertised projects for example are no longer in existence... I'm co-ordinating with the Pavement mag to ensure copies are available and their listings are up to date...
> btw: almost all the people I know there in the 'services' are there in a personal capacity not in the employ of Poverty Pimps....



ETA: I understand this will be rose at the GA on Monday.. can anyone confirm this, as I have people going involved in outreach


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## Divisive Cotton (Nov 6, 2011)

If I have the money I met pop along in the week. Is there a list of stuff that they need?


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## Corax (Nov 6, 2011)

Something based on custom, which hasn't been custom for several hundred years, isn't likely to be taken hugely seriously tbh.


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## Luther Blissett (Nov 6, 2011)

It's not based on custom - the rights of weekly "husting" and assembly at St. Paul's Cross are enshrined in law. It's the earliest known "seat" of democracy in London.It's the traditional place for proclamatioms both civil and religious, a place where Londoners made a general assembly in times of national crisis. The significance of this special place - earliest known democratic assembly in London's and possibly Britain's history - is why I mentioned it. The legal rights of general assembly at the site of Paul's Cross have not yet been repealed, and it's wholly worthy of a mention.

I've been doing some reading into the 14th-17th century use of this unique place of general assembly, and will write a paragraph or three about that soon. You'll discover that that the right of assembly at Paul's Cross was open to all citizens, and that speeches on business ethics and trade were delivered to citizens at that site, as well as controversial religious and political sermons, and discuss how those shaped the political culture of London at that time. I'll quote a few lines from some of those controversial political and religious speeches delivered between the the reign of Elizabeth I until the Civil War, which have survived.


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## Luther Blissett (Nov 6, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> If I have the money I met pop along in the week. Is there a list of stuff that they need?


Yes. Message today said they really need those silver foil sleeping bags/blankets (mountain survival type), sleeping bags and blankets.


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## Luther Blissett (Nov 6, 2011)

Corax said:


> Something based on custom, which hasn't been custom for several hundred years, isn't likely to be taken hugely seriously tbh.


No-one's asking you take the Anthropology of this Place seriously, even though the legal right to assembly is still enshrined in law. I probably do take it more seriously than you because I'm an anthropologist by trade (a nomadologist). Places are important imo. Here's a modern-day assembly, holding general assemblies every week on the same site as the earliest known democratic assembly in London, attempting to evolve our democracy away from the dictates of corporations (1%) and towards representing the people (99%). To me, the spot where Occupy is happening today is an exceptionally important place in this evolution of democratic representation. Feel free to dismiss this knowledge as archaic if you wish. Others might find it imparts a deeper sense of of continuity and belonging.


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## Corax (Nov 6, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> No-one's asking you take the Anthropology of this Place seriously, even though the legal right to assembly is still enshrined in law. I probably do take it more seriously than you because I'm an anthropologist by trade (a nomadologist). Places are important imo. Here's a modern-day assembly, holding general assemblies every week on the same site as the earliest known democratic assembly in London, attempting to evolve our democracy away from the dictates of corporations (1%) and towards representing the people (99%). To me, the spot where Occupy is happening today is an exceptionally important place in this evolution of democratic representation. Feel free to dismiss this knowledge as archaic if you wish. Others might find it imparts a deeper sense of of continuity and belonging.


I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not disparaging the idea of the assemblies - I like the concept. I meant taken seriously by the courts etc, taken seriously as a _legal_ argument.


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## Divisive Cotton (Nov 6, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> Yes. Message today said they really need those silver foil sleeping bags/blankets (mountain survival type), sleeping bags and blankets.



well I'm not going to bring that

I was thinking more of food items that I can buy from Sainsburys


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 6, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> I was thinking more of food items that I can buy from Sainsburys


They will be grateful for anything you take.


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## treelover (Nov 6, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofmaraxSHg

The King Blues - Does Anybody Care About Us
New anthem for the Occupy movement, bit MSP/Green Day, but really catchy..


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## treelover (Nov 6, 2011)

'Christina Freeman
 From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'

a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 6, 2011)

*Blue Ed and Doug Alexander are both suddenly bibbling about the relevance of the Occupation. Clearly this has been discussed in cabinet and Labour think there are votes in looking like they give a shit. Now, who was it who had 13 years in government when they celebrated deregulated finance and oversaw widening income inequality?*


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 6, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Christina Freeman
> From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'
> 
> a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...



I raised this issue regarding the Manchester Occupation. people generally flamed me for it. The Manchester Occupation folded shortly thereafter.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Christina Freeman
> From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'
> 
> a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...


at this time of year i think a wee nip of whiskey's entirely acceptable. and for those who won't reach for the spirits, a couple of cans of tommy cooper isn't beyond the pale.


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## smokedout (Nov 6, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I raised this issue regarding the Manchester Occupation. people generally flamed me for it. The Manchester Occupation folded shortly thereafter.



if a camp isnt strong or disciplined enough to cope with a few folk having a drink, (with limitations if agreed) then it isnt really anything

how do you think the squat/free party scene and traveller/festival sites have coped all this time


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## AKA pseudonym (Nov 6, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Christina Freeman
> From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA. (Ben'
> 
> a growing problem, thats why its best to stay dry...



I have the funny feeling that their problems run deeper than 'street drinkers'.... bit of a crap excuse to abandon camp.. and what do they mean by _strong physical support_?? hmm... im sure the street drinkers were there first and ime can be reasoned with...


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## Brainaddict (Nov 6, 2011)

Luther Blissett said:


> It's not based on custom - the rights of weekly "husting" and assembly at St. Paul's Cross are enshrined in law. It's the earliest known "seat" of democracy in London.It's the traditional place for proclamatioms both civil and religious, a place where Londoners made a general assembly in times of national crisis. The significance of this special place - earliest known democratic assembly in London's and possibly Britain's history - is why I mentioned it. The legal rights of general assembly at the site of Paul's Cross have not yet been repealed, and it's wholly worthy of a mention.
> 
> I've been doing some reading into the 14th-17th century use of this unique place of general assembly, and will write a paragraph or three about that soon. You'll discover that that the right of assembly at Paul's Cross was open to all citizens, and that speeches on business ethics and trade were delivered to citizens at that site, as well as controversial religious and political sermons, and discuss how those shaped the political culture of London at that time. I'll quote a few lines from some of those controversial political and religious speeches delivered between the the reign of Elizabeth I until the Civil War, which have survived.


If you write something and fit it onto a side of A4 it could be stuck up on the poster walls at St Paul's - people would love it I think. Can you get to the camp? If not I could stick if up.

On the legal stuff though, I think you have to be careful to distinguish interesting legal history from what is legally enforceable right now, otherwise you'll get people's hopes up. I have a feeling courts don't really enforce laws that haven't been used for hundreds of years, even if they are technically still on the books. It might be better to focus on the history of the public assembling there, rather than on the dubious legal ground (unless you can get confirmation of the legal issues) - otherwise you might end up looking like the freemen...


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## AKA pseudonym (Nov 6, 2011)

Actually im doubting the validity of that 'statement'...
from FB postings @ the Brighton Group over the last 2 hours...


> 'Great Vibes at Occupy Brighton. All welcome for the GA at 7 and talk at 8!'





> Thanks to all who came to our children's workshop today. The kids made a great banner that says "Children have rights, Brighton kids against war" - their choice. It has been attached to the schnews tent so traffic passing the King and Queens can see it loud and clear. There are also some canvases the kids made with a theme of making a better world, these are on display at camp. Well done lovely children of Brighton. See you next Sunday.



and from this morning...



> Very peaceful night and morning so far  thanks tranquility - great job xxx


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## 8ball (Nov 6, 2011)

smokedout said:


> how do you think the squat/free party scene and traveller/festival sites have coped all this time



By not having any qualms about dragging troublemakers out for a kicking?

Tricky when you're camped up in a town centre under the watchful eye of CCTV.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 6, 2011)

smokedout said:


> if a camp isnt strong or disciplined enough to cope with a few folk having a drink, (with limitations if agreed) then it isnt really anything
> 
> how do you think the squat/free party scene and traveller/festival sites have coped all this time



The squat / free party / festival scene etc. may have had different objectives and numbers, but I bet a lot of the organisers found constantly pissed up people to be a bit of a pain in the arse. I think much of this is a numbers game. If the number of full time "on it" activists is fairly small then it won't take too much by way of disruptive / aggressive behaviour from pissed folk to throw things off balance. Hence I aint too worried about London in this regard, but know it has affected other smaller occs beyond Manchester and Brighton. f Brigthon is anything like Manchester they will be having their days, nights and efforts to engage the public all disrupted by fairly mashed people. Perhaps you can get down there and give them the benefit of your experience of overcoming such obstacles. It might also be of use if you can put together a leaflet on how to win round the public to a cause while pissheads, who appear to be attached to your cause,  are staggering around and shouting a lot.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> I have the funny feeling that their problems run deeper than 'street drinkers'.... bit of a crap excuse to abandon camp.. and what do they mean by _strong physical support_?? hmm... im sure the street drinkers were there first and ime can be reasoned with...


unlike the campers, it seems.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> The squat / free party / festival scene etc. may have had different objectives and numbers, but I bet a lot of the organisers found constantly pissed up people to be a bit of a pain in the arse. I think much of this is a numbers game. If the number of full time "on it" activists is fairly small then it won't take too much by way of disruptive / aggressive behaviour from pissed folk to throw things off balance. Hence I aint too worried about London in this regard, but know it has affected other smaller occs beyond Manchester and Brighton. f Brigthon is anything like Manchester they will be having their days, nights and efforts to engage the public all disrupted by fairly mashed people. Perhaps you can get down there and give them the benefit of your experience of overcoming such obstacles. It might also be of use if you can put together a leaflet on how to win round the public to a cause while pissheads, who appear to be attached to your cause, are staggering around and shouting a lot.


do you like your identity politics? because you seem quite happy attributing single identities to other people who just possibly might object to them. it's rather depressing seeing your view that somehow street drinkers aren't quite equal. people don't start off street drinkers, you know, and street drinkers are frankly the sort of people these camps are for. street drinkers have become so disenfranchised and alienated from society that laws are put in place up and down the land to fucking see them off - laws which, clearly, won't apply to the decent drinkers among us. somehow each and every street drinker has suffered a series of mishaps in their lives, perhaps unemployment, perhaps the slow lingering death of a loved one, perhaps a combination of factors which have led them to where they are today. and what do they receive from people who claim to be against the system which discards people, which forces large swathes of society into regular alcohol abuse? veiled threats of physical violence and being told in no uncertain terms that, once again, they're useless.

fuck off back under the stone you came from.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 6, 2011)

Pickmans:

It's got nothing to do with street drinkers or any other kind of drinkers being less equal. drink dependency really knows no class anyhow. It is a case of people constantly disrupting occupations efforts regardless of whether they are "street" or not, though they do tend to be drunk I gather. That is the issue: Pissed people obstructing occs, as experienced in at least 3 I can think of. Not "identity politics". Not my opinions. But it's harder to deal with than slagging people off, I'll grant you that.

ETA: I agree that these camps are for street drinkers as much as anyone, perhaps even more so due to their alienated circs. But an unworkable camp from disruption and aggression is still just that. A camp that successfully deals with such challenges will basically be running as an unpaid branch of social services. Verily, 'tis Comrade Cameron's Big Society, and Bumface should thus declare allegience to anarchy. Or summat.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 6, 2011)

Separately

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/06/city-property-benefit-developer-mayor


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> veiled threats of physical violence and being told in no uncertain terms that, once again, they're useless.
> 
> .


 Where is this happening?


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> But an unworkable camp from disruption and aggression is still just that. A camp that successfully deals with such challenges will basically be running as an unpaid branch of social services.



This is where the camps need to be approaching relevant organisations for help/guidance etc.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Where is this happening?


see  post 551


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

Do you mean this one PM?



treelover said:


> 'Christina Freeman
> From Occupy Brighton: PLEASE SHARE WITH ANYONE WHO CARES - the simple fact is that we are increasingly outnumbered by street drinkers on site, making the whole thing appear unworkable/unsustainable. Unless we get strong physical support from the soberer community in the next few hours, it is looking like we will have to dissolve the camp @ this evening's GA.



I don't think the 'physical support' thing is necessarily a threat of violence . A camp is unworkable and unsustainable if there are not enough 'sober' people to run it and maintain order.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Do you mean this one PM?
> 
> I don't think the 'physical support' thing is necessarily a threat of violence . A camp is unworkable and unsustainable if there are not enough 'sober' people to run it and maintain order.


if that's post 551 that's the one i mean. what does 'strong physical support' suggest to you? i suppose next you'll be telling me that 'resettlement in the east' really did mean that european jews were in fact being settled in the former poland and other points east occupied by the germans in the war.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> what does 'strong physical support' suggest to you?
> 
> i suppose next you'll be telling me that 'resettlement in the east' really did mean that european jews were in fact being settled in the former poland and other points east occupied by the germans in the war.



I suggest you calm down and stop putting words into my mouth. 

I have said what I think it could mean. I also know that having a lot of drunk people on camp is a pain in the bloody arse if things need to get done in terms of organisation and maintanence, it can also be intimidating if said people are arsey/disruptive or aggressive in any way.

I'm not saying that all street drinkers are like this of course...I am saying that some are and regardless of how they got to be in the situation they are, it appears that the camps are not equipped to deal with the fallout of having high numbers of street drinkers on site, without similar numbers of sober people there too.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

if i wanted strong physical support, it'd mean that i wanted someone to twat someone else. there's no other meaning or construction i could put on that phrase.

as for putting words in your mouth, i didn't. do you get this arsy every time someone asks you a question?


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Pickmans:
> 
> It's got nothing to do with street drinkers or any other kind of drinkers being less equal. drink dependency really knows no class anyhow. It is a case of people constantly disrupting occupations efforts regardless of whether they are "street" or not, though they do tend to be drunk I gather. That is the issue: Pissed people obstructing occs, as experienced in at least 3 I can think of. Not "identity politics". Not my opinions. But it's harder to deal with than slagging people off, I'll grant you that.
> 
> ETA: I agree that these camps are for street drinkers as much as anyone, perhaps even more so due to their alienated circs. But an unworkable camp from disruption and aggression is still just that. A camp that successfully deals with such challenges will basically be running as an unpaid branch of social services. Verily, 'tis Comrade Cameron's Big Society, and Bumface should thus declare allegience to anarchy. Or summat.



you're all over the place, are you pissed?


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> This is where the camps need to be approaching relevant organisations for help/guidance etc.



theres a cheap off licence opposite barbican station if that helps


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if i wanted strong physical support, it'd mean that i wanted someone to twat someone else. there's no other meaning or construction i could put on that phrase.


 That is what you would mean. That doesn't mean everyone else means the same using those words.



> as for putting words in your mouth, i didn't. do you get this arsy every time someone asks you a question?



I am not being arsey. I am suggesting there are other reasons why this camp wants more sober people on site for practical reasons I have stated and not necessarily because, as you want to suggest, that the sober protesters are doing the equivalent of 'ethnic cleansing' under the guise of something else.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I am not being arsey. I am suggesting there are other reasons why this camp wants more sober people on site for practical reasons I have stated and not necessarily because as you want to suggest that the protestors are doing the equivalent of 'ethnic cleansing'.


you are being arsy because you said that i was putting words in your mouth.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I am not being arsey. I am suggesting there are other reasons why this camp wants more sober people on site for practical reasons I have stated and not necessarily because as you want to suggest that the protestors are doing the equivalent of 'ethnic cleansing'.



but surely a camp will have more sober people on site, if not its just a piss up anyway and whats the problem?

st pauls certainly does, but they've still decided to ban drinking (and by extension street drinkers)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you are being arsy because you said that i was putting words in your mouth.



No I am not...because you were trying to when you posted this:



> *i suppose next you'll be telling me that* 'resettlement in the east' really did mean that european jews were in fact being settled in the former poland and other points east occupied by the germans in the war.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> but surely a camp will have more sober people on site, if not its just a piss up anyway and whats the problem?
> 
> st pauls certainly does, but they've still decided to ban drinking (and by extension street drinkers)



Yeah, the discussion was about the Brighton camp though.

St Pauls and FS have a policy on alcohol, which pretty much means no visible piss up, people are decanting or drinking in private. This policy wasn't formulated to ostracise street drinkers, it was because the concensus is that the camp isn't a festival, people want the camp to have a decent image so that others free safe to join/visit/engage etc and that there are practical things that need doing day-to-day that require people to be alert and willing to pitch in.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

you know its quite possible to do both, people have been managing it for hundreds of years


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> No I am not...because you were trying to when you posted this:


you don't really know what putting words into people's mouths is, do you?


----------



## London_Calling (Nov 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> you know its quite possible to do both, people have been managing it for hundreds of years


There hasn't been this kind of - look, no one is in the tents!!1! - media 'for hundreds of years': you have to play the game without naivity or they'll have you for breakfast.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> No I am not...because you were trying to when you posted this:


before we go any further down this little alley, i'm not fucking putting words in your mouth, i'm suggesting you're fucking gullible.


----------



## London_Calling (Nov 7, 2011)

Pickman's - well done, the first row of the week around 9.00am on a Monday. It must make life almost worth living.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> There hasn't been this kind of - look, no one is in the tents!!1! - media 'for hundreds of years': you have to play the game without naivity or they'll have you for breakfast.



so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Pickman's - well done, the first row of the week around 9.00am on a Monday. It must make life almost worth living.


took you fucking long enough to notice it. you're on the same slow train as ever i see.


----------



## London_Calling (Nov 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda


Jesus.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Nov 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda


I have a friend who told me last night that he had spent several days on the Finsbury Park occupation. He described how the organisation was carried out on an agreed basis between the people involved. He described one such meeting and how the agreements were made in very efficient way with no time wasting. He also said that one of the features agreed was not to have obvious drinking going on because they wanted to create a good image for the occupation and not to give the media any negative stories that could be exploited. He also told me about the large numbers of homeless and hungry people who had gone to the occupation and were being fed each day. He was very impressed, and being currently unemployed will be back there again today and for the rest of this week at least.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so site management is being based on what the evenings standard might think - they, not you, set the agenda



Do you understand what consensus means? Yes, the camps are concerned about image and rightly so. The way to help the movement grow is through outreach...that means having an environment and atmosphere that people from outside the camp feel comfortable to engage with etc. Also, people who are resident on site have the right to feel comfortable and safe. I don't think asking people to be concious and tactful with their drinking is a bad thing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> before we go any further down this little alley, i'm not fucking putting words in your mouth, i'm suggesting you're fucking gullible.



Oh do fuck off PM. 

I'll tell you what, the next time you are on either site let me know and I will come and discuss this with you in person. That way I think we will communicate better, context is everything.

I understand people are concerned about how the homeless and street drinkers are being treated...this though just feels like nit-picking.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Do you understand what consensus means? Yes, the camps are concerned about image and rightly so.



so you're happy for the media to set the rules, rules you follow without even being asked.  who needs cops when you've got the media.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> The way to help the movement grow is through outreach...that means having an environment and atmosphere that people from outside the camp feel comfortable to engage with etc.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Nov 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so you're happy for the media to set the rules, rules you follow without even being asked. who needs cops when you've got the media.


The media have been setting the rules for our politicians for the last few decades. Remember "It's the Sun wot won it" after Kinnock's defeat. Remember the Labour Party Rapid Rebuttal Unit using Excalibur software to pick up hostile news and counter it, and subsequently Tony Blair flying off to meet Murdoch to get him on side before his election campaign. Look at the failure of the Met Police to admit to being influenced by journalists in the phone tapping scandal. If people at that level of power and politics are cowed by the media then it is not surprising that anti-establishment people sleeping in tents where they are not wanted, should show caution.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The media have been setting the rules for our politicians for the last few decades.



superficially perhaps, but in who's interests?  why are you sucking up to the people you want to destroy?


----------



## London_Calling (Nov 7, 2011)




----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2011)




----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2011)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ercover-at-St-Pauls-anti-capitalism-demo.html

Hatchet job in The SUN


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2011)

'My suspicions are confirmed when he invites me to the "love tent".
_Oh God, is that what I think it is?_
Why yes, it is. He tells me: "I went in there once. It's basically a massive orgy with loads of teenagers.
"There was just this mass of bodies all getting down to it."

C,mon this is bollocks isn't it?


----------



## dennisr (Nov 7, 2011)

treelover said:


> C,mon this is bollocks isn't it?



Its all true - i flogged a couple of papers in there


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'My suspicions are confirmed when he invites me to the "love tent".
> _Oh God, is that what I think it is?_
> Why yes, it is. He tells me: "I went in there once. It's basically a massive orgy with loads of teenagers.
> "There was just this mass of bodies all getting down to it."



I take it back.  youve really got the media tucked up this time


----------



## GEN.Eccentric (Nov 7, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'My suspicions are confirmed when he invites me to the "love tent".
> _Oh God, is that what I think it is?_
> Why yes, it is. He tells me: "I went in there once. It's basically a massive orgy with loads of teenagers.
> "There was just this mass of bodies all getting down to it."
> ...


The only coherent comments on the page appear to come to the conclusion it is bollocks. I really think only a small minority of people actually believe anything in Murdochs papers, most just like reading it, it makes them feel some how more secure in their vapid and vacuous materialist bubble which they are subconsciously terrified of being popped.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 7, 2011)

that must be it.  they must be stupid.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2011)

GEN.Eccentric said:


> The only coherent comments on the page appear to come to the conclusion it is bollocks.



A lot of the incoherent comments come to the same conclusion - it's near-unanimous.


----------



## love detective (Nov 7, 2011)

dennisr said:


> Its all true - i flogged a couple of papers in there



is that a euphinisism?


----------



## dennisr (Nov 7, 2011)

love detective said:


> is that a euphinisism?


quite possibly (its as true as the sun 'report')


----------



## DRINK? (Nov 7, 2011)

love tent sounds great....as for the rest of it meh...bit boring now, can't they go on a rampage or something and I can go home early from work.....yawn


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Nov 7, 2011)

I see that article recycles the one about it not being anti-capitalist to be drinking Starbucks and using Macbooks that was first created on a panel programme by a female Tory MP last week, repeated by Theresa May in another programme and is now given its third airing in the Sun. Also having seen the alleged 'Love Tent' saying "I made my excuses and left". That is a good old News of the World cliché that with the demise of that newspaper is now in the wild for all tabloids to use.


----------



## treelover (Nov 7, 2011)

I do wonder what will happen after Wednesday if there is trouble, though i suspect the student march will be a lot smaller this year


----------



## Corax (Nov 7, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'My suspicions are confirmed when he invites me to the "love tent".
> _Oh God, is that what I think it is?_
> Why yes, it is. He tells me: "I went in there once. It's basically a massive orgy with loads of teenagers.
> "There was just this mass of bodies all getting down to it."
> ...


Fucksake, I _*knew*_ letting WillNumbers get involved was a bad idea.


----------



## ExtraRefined (Nov 7, 2011)




----------



## claphamboy (Nov 7, 2011)

Corax said:


> Fucksake, I _*knew*_ letting WillNumbers get involved was a bad idea.



I think I can see a flaw in this post.

Do you seriously think he would actually be invited into the love tent?


----------



## Corax (Nov 7, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> I think I can see a flaw in this post.
> 
> Do you seriously think he would actually be invited into the love tent?


Ask Rutita....!


----------



## Luther Blissett (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm not used to seeing treelover so happy, but I like it


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

Corax said:


> Ask Rutita....!



Sorry I haven't gotten around to answering your PM yet, (I appreciated the sentiment by the way).

I would however like this silliness to stop now. Thanks.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so you're happy for the media to set the rules, rules you follow without even being asked. who needs cops when you've got the media.



Why do you assume it's the media setting the rules? The media is hardly 'flattering' the occupations is it? They continue however and despite the way you want to interpret the 'discrete' drinking policy on camp,there was a consesus decision for it which had nothing to do with wanting to discrimate against street drinkers. Many people on site are taking the occupation and their input in it seriously, shock horror they don't want to get drunk all the time or encourage others to do so.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Why do you assume it's the media setting the rules? The media is hardly 'flattering' the occupations is it? They continue however and despite the way you want to interpret the 'discrete' drinking policy on camp,there was a consesus decision for it which had nothing to do with wanting to discrimate against street drinkers.



Don't take this the wrong way, and I may be minsinterpreting media reports again, but how do you know what the reasons are for 'decision by jazzhands'?


----------



## Corax (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Sorry I haven't gotten around to answering your PM yet, (I appreciated the sentiment by the way).
> 
> I would however like this silliness to stop now. Thanks.


Done.

I was hoping that would run like hobnobs and dub's fiver.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Why do you assume it's the media setting the rules? The media is hardly 'flattering' the occupations is it? They continue however and despite the way you want to interpret the 'discrete' drinking policy on camp,there was a consesus decision for it which had nothing to do with wanting to discrimate against street drinkers. Many people on site are taking the occupation and their input in it seriously, shock horror they don't want to get drunk all the time or encourage others to do so.


i suppose street drinkers were invited to this meeting and helped it reach consensus.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 7, 2011)

8ball said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, and I may be minsinterpreting media reports again, but how do you know what the reasons are for 'decision by jazzhands'?


so that the meeting is not constantly interrupted afaik


----------



## 8ball (Nov 7, 2011)

ddraig said:


> so that the meeting is not constantly interrupted afaik



Well, I imagine so, but unless people speak up and give their reasons you can't really say why a motion was carried with this kind of decision making.


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 7, 2011)

8ball said:


> Well, I imagine so, but unless people speak up and give their reasons you can't really say why a motion was carried with this kind of decision making.



People do speak up though.  That's why decisions take so long imo.  Anyone can get up and say their bit or amend something, change some wording, ask for more time and to defer the decision etc...

And when somebody says something a lot of people agree with, it's quite obvious to all who are there.


----------



## DownwardDog (Nov 7, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'My suspicions are confirmed when he invites me to the "love tent".
> _Oh God, is that what I think it is?_
> Why yes, it is. He tells me: "I went in there once. It's basically a massive orgy with loads of teenagers.
> "There was just this mass of bodies all getting down to it."
> ...



What was the bit about collecting bottles of piss all about?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2011)

DownwardDog said:


> What was the bit about collecting bottles of piss all about?


for the demonstration on wednesday when the cops will be pelted with it.

don't be surprised when you see that in the papers tomorrow or wednesday.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 7, 2011)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The media have been setting the rules for our politicians for the last few decades. Remember "It's the Sun wot won it" after Kinnock's defeat. Remember the Labour Party Rapid Rebuttal Unit using Excalibur software to pick up hostile news and counter it, and subsequently Tony Blair flying off to meet Murdoch to get him on side before his election campaign. Look at the failure of the Met Police to admit to being influenced by journalists in the phone tapping scandal. If people at that level of power and politics are cowed by the media then it is not surprising that anti-establishment people sleeping in tents where they are not wanted, should show caution.



Exactly. And showing caution is not sucking up to the media.


----------



## rekil (Nov 7, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'My suspicions are confirmed when he invites me to the "love tent".
> _Oh God, is that what I think it is?_
> Why yes, it is. He tells me: "I went in there once. It's basically a massive orgy with loads of teenagers.
> "There was just this mass of bodies all getting down to it."
> ...


See post #944.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Why do you assume it's the media setting the rules? The media is hardly 'flattering' the occupations is it? They continue however and despite the way you want to interpret the 'discrete' drinking policy on camp,there was a consesus decision for it which had nothing to do with wanting to discrimate against street drinkers. Many people on site are taking the occupation and their input in it seriously, shock horror they don't want to get drunk all the time or encourage others to do so.



I agree. I did say as much to a couple of the Occupiers when I was dropping some food off last week.

Im in a Coop and we agreed a no drinking at meetings rule as we found a minority were getting disruptive after a few drinks. This has nothing to do with the media as we arent that important. It was just commonsense decision.

As far as I can see the Occupiers are giving food to whoever turns up. No one is being questioned if they are an Occupier or not.

The Occupiers are learning the hard way to keep this going for several months. Most would not have experience of working in this Cooperative way even if its something they believe in. Looks to me that the London Occupations are doing ok for the time being.

I do think they could heed the advice of Naomi Wolf:

"The movement has been shy of identifying leaders, but I believe this is a mistake. A leader does not have to be a top-down hierarchist: a leader can be a simple representative. Protesters should elect representatives – for a given term just like in any democracy – and train them to talk to the press and to negotiate with politicians. These should span the spectrum: young people and grandparents, truckers and teachers and businesspeople. It is hard to cover the protest effectively if there are no spokespeople."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/06/naomi-wolf-occupy-movement


----------



## treelover (Nov 8, 2011)

that woman from Uk uncut who was interviewed on newsnight was very good, though I could see her in the LP in ten years time..


----------



## free spirit (Nov 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I do think they could heed the advice of Naomi Wolf:
> 
> "The movement has been shy of identifying leaders, but I believe this is a mistake. A leader does not have to be a top-down hierarchist: a leader can be a simple representative. Protesters should elect representatives – for a given term just like in any democracy – and train them to talk to the press and to negotiate with politicians. These should span the spectrum: young people and grandparents, truckers and teachers and businesspeople. It is hard to cover the protest effectively if there are no spokespeople."
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/06/naomi-wolf-occupy-movement


well, she would say that wouldn't she, being a self identified spokesperson for such movements.

fact is the powers that be love organisations with leaders, spokespeople etc as they're easy to buy off / threaten / outmanouver politically.

if there's no head, then it's far harder to kill off by any decapitation approach, though they'll no doubt find other ways of achieving the same affect.


----------



## Nigel (Nov 8, 2011)

As an aside, has anyone seen any conspiralloons turn up.
Right wing group calling itself L@wf*l R£bell10n had their conference in central london @ weekend.
Had a lot of papers from U#K C0llumn of which for instance individuals such as W@yn£ Sturg£0n of N@ ti0n@l A n @rchi$t$ is involved in.
They said they were going down to St. Pauls to spread the word.
Anyone see or hear of them being around.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Nov 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I do think they could heed the advice of Naomi Wolf:
> 
> "The movement has been shy of identifying leaders, but I believe this is a mistake. A leader does not have to be a top-down hierarchist: a leader can be a simple representative. Protesters should elect representatives – for a given term just like in any democracy – *and train them to talk to the press and to negotiate with politicians*. These should span the spectrum: young people and grandparents, truckers and teachers and businesspeople. It is hard to cover the protest effectively if there are no spokespeople."
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/06/naomi-wolf-occupy-movement



hmmm.. to 'train' people reveals an inherent hierachal position....
imo... feck 'jazzy hands'..... get an agreed 'agenda', stop faffing about, and stick to the important issues... designate an agreed time to 'debate each topic' and vote for a consensual agreement... not being tanky but a good chairperson could cut the BS... if people feel strongly about an issue, let them regroup and present a coherent arguement at the next meeting...
A lot of people (the majority) aint used to these 'jazz hand' incestual discussion processes... anyhows, I believe there is another thread here to discuss 'thoughts' on #occupy....


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Nov 8, 2011)

Nigel said:


> As an aside, has anyone seen any conspiralloons turn up.
> Right wing group calling itself L@wf*l R£bell10n had their conference in central london @ weekend.
> Had a lot of papers from U#K C0llumn of which for instance individuals such as W@yn£ Sturg£0n of N@ ti0n@l A n @rchi$t$ is involved in.
> They said they were going down to St. Pauls to spread the word.
> Anyone see or hear of them being around.


huh?

your links are to email addresses?
tbh: they look like lulzsec/chan identities?
*PLUS my security is flagging them as dodgy?*


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 8, 2011)

copliker said:


> Headline tomorrow: St.Paul's Steps Sordid Lesbian Love-In Shame


I wish I'd made it into London now. 




Gramsci said:


> I agree. I did say as much to a couple of the Occupiers when I was dropping some food off last week.
> 
> Im in a Coop and we agreed a no drinking at meetings rule as we found a minority were getting disruptive after a few drinks. This has nothing to do with the media as we arent that important. It was just commonsense decision.
> 
> ...



Leaders, lol.


----------



## free spirit (Nov 8, 2011)

Nigel said:


> As an aside, has anyone seen any conspiralloons turn up.
> Right wing group calling itself L@wf*l R£bell10n had their conference in central london @ weekend.
> Had a lot of papers from U#K C0llumn of which for instance individuals such as W@yn£ Sturg£0n of N@ ti0n@l A n @rchi$t$ is involved in.
> They said they were going down to St. Pauls to spread the word.
> Anyone see or hear of them being around.


have you caught l33t or something?


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 8, 2011)

free spirit said:


> have you caught l33t or something?


Trying to make this thread unsearchable obvs.



Noobz


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 8, 2011)

Gramsci said:


> I agree. I did say as much to a couple of the Occupiers when I was dropping some food off last week.
> 
> Im in a Coop and we agreed a no drinking at meetings rule as we found a minority were getting disruptive after a few drinks. This has nothing to do with the media as we arent that important. It was just commonsense decision.
> 
> ...



Cool!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 8, 2011)

Boris Johnson heckled by Occupy protesters on People's Question Time before they were removed by sercurity.
More of this sort of thing. This kind of direct action/disruption of public meetings is working very well for Occupy wall Street.


----------



## killer b (Nov 8, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> huh?
> 
> your links are to email addresses?
> tbh: they look like lulzsec/chan identities?
> *PLUS my security is flagging them as dodgy?*


he's trying to make his comments unsearchable, but i guess the forum software automatically converts anything with a @ in into an email link.


----------



## Blagsta (Nov 8, 2011)

Nigel said:


> As an aside, has anyone seen any conspiralloons turn up.
> Right wing group calling itself L@wf*l R£bell10n had their conference in central london @ weekend.
> Had a lot of papers from U#K C0llumn of which for instance individuals such as W@yn£ Sturg£0n of N@ ti0n@l A n @rchi$t$ is involved in.
> They said they were going down to St. Pauls to spread the word.
> Anyone see or hear of them being around.



There are people at the Birmingham camp into all that "lawful rebellion" crap.


----------



## Nigel (Nov 8, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> There are people at the Birmingham camp into all that "lawful rebellion" crap.


That could be a bit of a nightmare.
Guy I talked to was from the Midlands


----------



## Nigel (Nov 8, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> huh?
> 
> your links are to email addresses?
> tbh: they look like lulzsec/chan identities?
> *PLUS my security is flagging them as dodgy?*


That wasn't done on purpose


----------



## smokedout (Nov 8, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Why do you assume it's the media setting the rules? The media is hardly 'flattering' the occupations is it?



because people said on this thread that the media were one of the reasons for the drinking ban, and you yourself said part of the reason was the 'image' of the camp



> They continue however and despite the way you want to interpret the 'discrete' drinking policy on camp,there was a consesus decision for it which had nothing to do with wanting to discrimate against street drinkers.



was it a consensus decision or did you vote?



> Many people on site are taking the occupation and their input in it seriously, shock horror they don't want to get drunk all the time or encourage others to do so.



why do you think that if you dont ban drinking then suddenly everyone will fall to the devil drink and spend all day getting pissed?


----------



## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

There is a post on OLSX FB page apparently originating from the Zeitgeist Movement basically endorsing Workfare, which they call 'workfair'

worrying...


----------



## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)




----------



## shaman75 (Nov 9, 2011)

> *Occupy London protesters issue demands to lord mayor*
> 
> Occupy London protesters outside St Paul's have put demands to the City of London Corporation which, if accepted, may prompt them to leave the cathedral area. The camp already planned to move further back on Friday to avoid impeding Remembrance Sunday commemorations, but now conceivably might leave entirely at the weekend.
> 
> ...



http://occupylsx.org/?p=839


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 9, 2011)

interesting article about the role of conspiracy theories in the Occupy movement http://shiftmag.co.uk/?p=512


----------



## BigTom (Nov 9, 2011)

treelover said:


> There is a post on OLSX FB page apparently originating from the Zeitgeist Movement basically endorsing Workfare, which they call 'workfair'
> 
> worrying...



not good, but if it's on a fb page it's not meaning anything much really. Remember that one of the OLSX aims/beliefs agreed near the start was the defence of benefit claimants, I doubt they would endorse workfare as a group.
There are a lot of nuts around at occupy places, and anyone can post on fb.


----------



## ExtraRefined (Nov 9, 2011)

Delroy Booth said:


> interesting article about the role of conspiracy theories in the Occupy movement http://shiftmag.co.uk/?p=512


 


> *finance capital vs industrial capital*: Populism often depends on the producerist narrative, which pits “unproductive capital” against “productive” capital. Unproductive capital refers to industries which are based on the manipulation of abstractions (banking), versus the production of physical objects (factory work). The Nazis relied on this distinction for their “National Socialism.”



Lol Milliband is a Nazi.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 9, 2011)

How did you work that out, brainwave?


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm fairly convinced nobody from OccupyLSX looks at the facebook page, so it's probably the best place for the trolls and nutcases and people with shit ideas to come together and keep themselves occupied.


----------



## ExtraRefined (Nov 9, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> How did you work that out, brainwave?



http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/09/britain-values-government-work




			
				Red Miliband's 2011 conference speech said:
			
		

> Let me tell you what the 21st century choice is: Are you on the side of the wealth creators or the asset strippers? The producers or the predators? Producers train, invest, invent, sell.
> Things Britain does brilliantly.
> Predators are just interested in the fast buck, taking what they can out of the business. This isn't about one industry that's good and another that isn't. Or one firm always destined to be a predator and another to be a producer. It's about different ways of doing business, ways that the rules of our economy can favour or discourage.
> Look at what a private equity firm did to the Southern Cross care homes. Stripping assets for a quick buck and treating tens of thousands of elderly people like commodities to be bought and sold.


----------



## treelover (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm a great fan of the Photographers Gallery in London, been going many years, but i just had a look at its trustees, its not just the church which has very very strong links with the COL...

http://www.photonet.org.uk/index.php?pid=192


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 9, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


> http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/09/britain-values-government-work


What a crock.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2011)

Live streaming from Student demo:

http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2011)

Tents in Trafalgar Sq. First GA happening there now.


----------



## Corax (Nov 9, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> Trying to make this thread unsearchable obvs.
> 
> 
> 
> Noobz


n*00*bz* *


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 9, 2011)

KIcking off on the main march after police kettle protesters.

Traf Sq group being arrested/dragged out after being cautioned at the mo.

http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Nov 9, 2011)

Fair play to Tom Morello (RATM) showing his solidarity @St Pauls earlier......


----------



## treelover (Nov 10, 2011)

'A firearms officer is facing disciplinary action after waking up in a protester's tent outside St Paul's Cathedral following a night of heavy drinking.
Pc Gary Withers, 35, was allegedly so drunk that he was thrown out of the Savoy Hotel in central London last week.
He is then said to have walked to St Paul's, 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2059697/Firearms-police-officer-slept-Occupy-St-Pauls-tent-night-drinking.html#ixzz1dJWUG6pd

You really really couldn't make this up, deserves a thread of its own..


----------



## Corax (Nov 10, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'A firearms officer is facing disciplinary action after waking up in a protester's tent outside St Paul's Cathedral following a night of heavy drinking.
> Pc Gary Withers, 35, was allegedly so drunk that he was thrown out of the Savoy Hotel in central London last week.
> He is then said to have walked to St Paul's,
> 
> ...





> The governors will have a word in his ear because it is not ideal for a police officer to be sleeping in a tent *with the globalists* outside St Paul's where his mates are all on duty.


Have I misunderstood what the protest is about?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 11, 2011)

ExtraRefined said:


>




He's a mentally deficient cunt for making that video (which, by the way, conflates mass production with capitalism at least 4 times )

You're a mentally deficient cunt for posting it. But then again we all knew that already.


----------



## London Eye (Nov 13, 2011)

Ok, so I've been going along to the St Paul's occupation, taken part in general assemblies, attended some working groups. As much as the hand signals annoy me and as wary as I am about "alternative" investigations into banking practices, the City of London and democracy turning into unsubstantiated conspiracy theory, there do seem to be some interesting speakers and activists. But after a month or so, the rifts among the campers are becoming more evident, the hand signals have turned from annoying to infuriating and there seems to be a working group being created for every point raised. I don't see right now how this can connect with the 99% or even the 50%. There is an issue of class that is not even discussed at the camp. It seems young, white middle-class activists predominate.

I don't want to read over these 50-odd pages, but I would like a distillation of the main points, the good points and the criticisms. Do people believe that the conspiracy stuff undermines the whole camp? What about those who concentrate on the financial system, fractional reserve, debt-based banking? All conspiracy? What about Positive Money UK, who presented their ideas in parliament along with Tory MP, Steve Baker and Michael Meacher MP? Does the involvement of Michael Meacher, who once asked for a proper investigation into 911, make the whole thing conspiracy territory. I lay my cards on the table, conspiracy theories do interest me, but more and more (with the help of places like Urban 75) I recognise how important it is to be as grounded as possible, It doesn't change my suspicions of how our governments and institutions lie to us, but I do want to hear grounded views about what is happening, so I can form a balanced opinion.

I'd rather not focus on conspiracy, because there are many environmental and democratic reformists at Occupy LSX there who are not into that. But what I'm asking is, is Occupy London working, is it part of a growing movement, or is this just desperation in the face of economic and political collapse? And if this is not the way, what is the way to bring justice to this world and its people and to hold bankers and politicians and multinational corporations to account?


----------



## Luther Blissett (Nov 13, 2011)

Corporates out of public policy! Exhibit A: privatisation of the NHS


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 14, 2011)

Someone posted this on the FB page.  Looks interesting:


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Nov 14, 2011)

was anyone here at the St. Pauls GA on Sunday??*.. there were a number of proposals re 'street folk'... are these taking effect? as a few who were there are trying to get feedback but busy.... there are people willing to set up support to the 'welcome tent' in a structured manner (as proposed.. say between 2-4 pm so we have a few 'experienced outreach workers' , working in a grassroots n personal capacity manner (ie no pov pimps... as if lol) about etc????

*if its gonna disrail thread, just PM me etc


----------



## BigTom (Nov 15, 2011)

David Harvey's talk from Saturday, really good.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 16, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i suppose street drinkers were invited to this meeting and helped it reach consensus.



a quick visit yesterday revealed the camp's true attitude towards street drinkers


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 16, 2011)




----------



## 8ball (Nov 16, 2011)

smokedout said:


> a quick visit yesterday revealed the camp's true attitude towards street drinkers



They do rather put one off one's organic tofu.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 16, 2011)

on the kitchen tent by the way, about 10 yards from the welfare tent

so no excuses about lone nutters


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 16, 2011)

if theres no tins allowed then they can keep their revolution...


----------



## goldenecitrone (Nov 16, 2011)

London Eye said:


> There is an issue of class that is not even discussed at the camp. It seems young, white middle-class activists predominate.



Natural leaders.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2011)

COL representatives and police...serving notice to quit...attaching the papers to tents on the live stream now.

http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so no excuses about lone nutters



I would imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that most of the incidents that include verbal and physical abuse/attacks have been from people who are completely pissed.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 16, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I would imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that most of the incidents that include verbal and physical abuse/attacks have been from people who are completely pissed.



so support not just excluding but also abusing vulnerable people with substance misuse problems then


----------



## treelover (Nov 16, 2011)

some of the street people were the hardest workers, eg working flat out in the kitchen, etc, but some were very abusive, but so was that woman in the strange hat...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2011)

smokedout said:


> so support not just excluding but also abusing vulnerable people with substance misuse problems then


 That is being done. Some people are refusing the help/referrals offered. Even if people are engaging and taking the help offered, in the mean time it is not stopping them getting drunk and abusing other protestors. There are also people who are not resident on site who are coming in just to hang out, get pissed etc.


----------



## Corax (Nov 16, 2011)

Did I just see Will on livestream talking about waterboarding?


----------



## smokedout (Nov 16, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> That is being done. Some people are refusing the help/referrals offered.



why do you think youve got anything to offer that cant be done far better by existing services that people on the street are already well aware of you stupid fucking liberals



> Even if people are engaging and taking the help offered, in the mean time it is not stopping them getting drunk and abusing other protestors. There are also people who are not resident on site who are coming in just to hang out, get pissed etc.



so you are prepared to abuse vulnerable people with a medical condition because you arent organised or capable enough to manage the needs of everyone properly.  will there be signs telling junkies, spackers, mongs and nutters to piss off as well?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 16, 2011)

That is an appalling, aggressive sign - it doesn't make any difference what was going on. Even if you wanted to have the camp be dry, you could just have signs saying "no alcohol", that's not hard. Maybe somebody thought it was amusing.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 16, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That is an appalling, aggressive sign - it doesn't make any difference what was going on. Even if you wanted to have the camp be dry, you could just have signs saying "no alcohol", that's not hard. Maybe somebody thought it was amusing.



I agree there.  There's a similar sign in Nottingham - I don't recall the wording but it's much more friendly and lightly humorous.

That didn't stop me having a go at them and comparing them to the Stasi, mind.


----------



## Blagsta (Nov 16, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I would imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that most of the incidents that include verbal and physical abuse/attacks have been from people who are completely pissed.


There are obviously issues in dealing with drunk or otherwise intoxicated people. There are, however, more diplomatic ways of going about it.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 16, 2011)

Having had far too much experience dealing with drunks - best option is to have a clear no drunkenness sign and enforce it. If necessary - and if it is agreed by GA as a policy- escort anyone who is drunk out of the area. Hardly rocket science.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 16, 2011)

'No drunkenness' being quite different to 'no alcohol'...


----------



## kenny g (Nov 16, 2011)

8ball said:


> 'No drunkenness' being quite different to 'no alcohol'...



well if they have decided no alcohol then all the easier. Nothing wrong with having a dry policy.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 16, 2011)

kenny g said:


> well if they have decided no alcohol then all the easier. Nothing wrong with having a dry policy.



Not saying there's anything wrong with it as such.  I do wonder where we're meant to be heading when the atmosphere within the camp is more repressive than that outside it, though.


----------



## Corax (Nov 16, 2011)

8ball said:


> 'No drunkenness' being quite different to 'no alcohol'...


Harder to ensure even-handedness though.  When does 'exuberant' become 'a bit merry' become 'tipsy' become 'drunk'?  It's a subjective measure.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 16, 2011)

Corax said:


> Harder to ensure even-handedness though. When does 'exuberant' become 'a bit merry' become 'tipsy' become 'drunk'? It's a subjective measure.



Too true. I can remember drinking a bottle of Lamb's Navy Rum plus all sorts in June 18th 1999. I think my effectiveness may have been enhanced if there had been a slightly more sober approach to the protest.


----------



## xes (Nov 16, 2011)

Just chipping in with a little off topic thoughtfart. But by the looks of the US "evictions" all them tents got fucked. I have no idea if something like this is already in place, but maybe people could donate their tents to a homeless charity or something, before they all get smooshed.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2011)

smokedout said:


> why do you think youve got anything to offer that cant be done far better by existing services that people on the street are already well aware of you stupid fucking liberals


 Why are you being so rude? We are using existing services and trying strategies of our own. What else can we do?



> so you are prepared to abuse vulnerable people with a medical condition because you arent organised or capable enough to manage the needs of everyone properly. will there be signs telling junkies, spackers, mongs and nutters to piss off as well?



_I_ am not abusing anyone. I did not make that sign, nor have I seen it personally. I did not vote for it or agree in any way that it's wording is the correct approach to the issue.
I do not like that sign. It is aggressive and rude. Just like you.

I tell you what, FUCK OFF and don't engage with me until you learn some manners and stop attacking me for what you imagine me to be doing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2011)

kenny g said:


> Having had far too much experience dealing with drunks - best option is to have a clear no drunkenness sign and enforce it. If necessary - and if it is agreed by GA as a policy- escort anyone who is drunk out of the area. Hardly rocket science.



That is pretty much what is being done already. I can't account for a sign I did not make, have not seen and would never have approved/agreed on.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 16, 2011)

Well said. At least it sounds like you are having some input in it- better than people like myself with our armchair contributions.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> There are obviously issues in dealing with drunk or otherwise intoxicated people. There are, however, more diplomatic ways of going about it.



I agree.


----------



## Dowie (Nov 16, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> There are obviously issues in dealing with drunk or otherwise intoxicated people. There are, however, more diplomatic ways of going about it.



Saw one incident when having a look around this evening - I'm not sure what went on before it or what prompted it, but some clean shaven well spoken guy was taking a beer bottle out of the hands of a guy with a beard... it got slightly aggressive and some police/security/yellow vest bloke stepped in and broke it up. Some other well spoken guy was talking to two more bearded guys saying 'he's been going round bullying people' or something along those lines - though I believe he was referring to the bloke with the beard as the bully and not the guy aggressively snatching his beer away. Whilst many people might not want street drinkers, I don't think they've got any right to physically intervene or any authority to dictate what people can or can't do in what is essentially still a public space.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 16, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> _I_ am not abusing anyone. I did not make that sign, nor have I seen it personally. I did not vote for it or agree in any way that it's wording is the correct approach to the issue.
> I do not like that sign. It is aggressive and rude. Just like you.
> 
> I tell you what, FUCK OFF and don't engage with me until you learn some manners and stop attacking me for what you imagine me to be doing.



you supported it, on this thread


----------



## smokedout (Nov 16, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Whilst many people might not want street drinkers, I don't think they've got any right to physically intervene or any authority to dictate what people can or can't do in what is essentially still a public space.



especially when they rely on the filth to back them up if it goes wrong

middle class scum


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2011)

smokedout said:


> you supported it, on this thread



No I didn't. I said I can imagine it was put up because of the abuse/attacks that are happening by pissed people from inside and outside of the camp.

I was posting in a rush being distracted by what was happening on the livestream and didn't take the time to give my opinions on the wording/approach of that particular 'sign'. That is different to supporting it.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2011)

Corax said:


> Harder to ensure even-handedness though. When does 'exuberant' become 'a bit merry' become 'tipsy' become 'drunk'? It's a subjective measure.



Certainly easier to implement simplistic authoritarian measures, can't argue with you there.

What were we protesting about again?


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 17, 2011)




----------



## Corax (Nov 17, 2011)

8ball said:


> Certainly easier to implement simplistic authoritarian measures, can't argue with you there.
> 
> What were we protesting about again?


I made no comment on the validity of the overall idea, merely on the practicality, but I'm not sure why simplistic authoritarian measures are inherently worse than convoluted authoritarian measures.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 17, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Why are you being so rude? We are using existing services and trying strategies of our own. What else can we do?



unless youve got any homes to offer them stop using strategies of your own, you cant help and you will just piss people off



Corax said:


> I made no comment on the validity of the overall idea, merely on the practicality, but I'm not sure why simplistic authoritarian measures are inherently worse than convoluted authoritarian measures.



there don't have to be any authoritarian measures, just genuine consensus that meets the needs of everyone, and not just the middle class self-appointed leaders


----------



## treelover (Nov 17, 2011)

Dowie said:


> Saw one incident when having a look around this evening - I'm not sure what went on before it or what prompted it, but some clean shaven well spoken guy was taking a beer bottle out of the hands of a guy with a beard... it got slightly aggressive and some police/security/yellow vest bloke stepped in and broke it up. Some other well spoken guy was talking to two more bearded guys saying 'he's been going round bullying people' or something along those lines - though I believe he was referring to the bloke with the beard as the bully and not the guy aggressively snatching his beer away. Whilst many people might not want street drinkers, I don't think they've got any right to physically intervene or any authority to dictate what people can or can't do in what is essentially still a public space.



It didn't start like that, OSLX for better or worse has become a magnet for the homeless, addicted, etc across London and they are doing great things to include them, but I personally witnessed agressive behaviour which was quite unpleasant, the main aim of the camp is to create alternatives and to develop new ideas and to challenge the practices of the COL, it can't be allowed to become overwhelmed by demands from the drinkers, etc, this has been the bane of many such iniatives with the brew crew, etc, undermining things...


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2011)

Corax said:


> I made no comment on the validity of the overall idea, merely on the practicality, but I'm not sure why simplistic authoritarian measures are inherently worse than convoluted authoritarian measures.



I'm not sure why authoritarian measures are made better by being simpler either.

And fuckin' magnets - how do they work?


----------



## emanymton (Nov 17, 2011)

Bloody Hell!!

I find myself in complete agreement with a post by Treelover.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 17, 2011)

Badly behaved drunks don't have to be tolerated by anyone- they are a fucking pain in the arse and there is nothing wrong with dealing with them proportionality.


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 18, 2011)

BBC claiming Occupy London protesters have taken over an empty bank building in Hackney.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15790972


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 18, 2011)




----------



## elbows (Nov 18, 2011)

This Guardian reporter is in the occupied building. Reports that armed police have turned up, and other police in ever increasing numbers.

https://twitter.com/#!/peterwalker99


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2011)

Seems to be calming down a bit - UBS are going to be fucking livid!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Nov 18, 2011)

elbows said:


> This Guardian reporter is in the occupied building. Reports that armed police have turned up, and other police in ever increasing numbers.
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/peterwalker99


 
Latest tweets say that the police have withdrawn.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 18, 2011)

Interesting development, this certainly takes things up to a new level.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2011)

I wonder if there is anyone on this forum who'd know how to find the whereabouts of any other unoccupied bank buildings there may be in London and elsewhere...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2011)

Well done on breaking the impasse whoever this is.


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 18, 2011)

8ball said:


> I wonder if there is anyone on this forum who'd know how to find the whereabouts of any other unoccupied bank buildings there may be in London and elsewhere...



The only former bank buildings around here have already been occupied by chain pubs and one, ironically, by a betting office.


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 18, 2011)

Building being called the 'Bank of Ideas'.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2011)

What a horrible smug name. Never mind.


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 18, 2011)

Oh, come on, it's a bit amusing and it'll get media attention.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2011)

Sounds like some crap BBC2 find a kid a shit job program.


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 18, 2011)

Website up http://www.bankofideas.org.uk/events/


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 18, 2011)

> The activists plan to set up a "bank of ideas" there tomorrow and open the disused offices and meeting rooms to "those who have lost their nurseries, community centres and youth clubs due to savage Government spending cuts".
> 
> 
> A programme of events has been drawn up, including talks from Palestinian activists and comedy by Josie Long, they said.
> ...



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/occupy-protesters-take-over-ubs-building-6264307.html


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2011)

Good move but - without being overly critical - it's houses not empty business properties that are the problem. The impasse is broken though.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 18, 2011)

Possibility of holding building for the cold months? Anyone?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Good move but - without being overly critical - it's houses not empty business properties that are the problem. The impasse is broken though.



Not sure moving into and occupying the empty third homes of banking executives is something that would generate good PR just yet...


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 18, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Good move but - without being overly critical - *it's houses not empty business properties that are the problem*. The impasse is broken though.



Agreed, but from a campaign/media whore point of view occupying this building, rather than a few empty houses, is as you say, a good move.


----------



## maldwyn (Nov 18, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Possibility of holding building for the cold months? Anyone?


I should think there's already a power supply and It would be warmer than Finsbury Square which is spitting distance.

Today it's 15c with an expected low of 9c


----------



## Onket (Nov 18, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Well done on breaking the impasse whoever this is.





butchersapron said:


> What a horrible smug name. Never mind.



Agree x2


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 18, 2011)

Pretty sure the building is right opposite another UBS occupied building incidentally, so their staff will be able to see them every day from their office windows.


----------



## Dan U (Nov 18, 2011)

i hope it gets raved to fuck on eviction weekend.

its got a auditorium and stuff, sounds perfect.


----------



## Onket (Nov 18, 2011)

Dan U said:


> i hope it gets raved to fuck on eviction weekend.
> 
> its got a auditorium and stuff, sounds perfect.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 18, 2011)

good move imo (and good timing too, all things considered), be interesting to see how this develops.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Building being called the 'Bank of Ideas'.


i suspect the hand of tower hamlets council in the name, just another fucking ideas store


----------



## Barking_Mad (Nov 18, 2011)

heh 



> After one activist read out their press release about the new occupation, there was a brief Q&A. What did we learn? Well, according to regular camp spokesman Ronan McNern, the building will be "a space for political discussion", hosting this weekend's conference of UK Occupy movements.
> 
> To prevent their squatters' rights being undermined, the space will not be open officially to the public, just "guests and friends". But as one activist, Peter Phoenix, said with a smile: "We do have a lot of friends." In other words, turn up and you'll be let in.
> 
> ...


----------



## Barking_Mad (Nov 18, 2011)

photos here: http://www.demotix.com/news/930220/occupy-london-repossess-derelict-ubs-building-city


----------



## treelover (Nov 18, 2011)

'Hello. Am looking for passionate protesters to take part in a ch4 comedy pilot. Must be London based (or close by) and available next Tuesday and Thursday. If you'd like more info please email roberta.warwick-thom@endemoluk.com - thanks '

Oh dear, recuperation begins...

its endemol as well...


----------



## Barking_Mad (Nov 18, 2011)

treelover said:


> 'Hello. Am looking for passionate protesters to take part in a ch4 comedy pilot. Must be London based (or close by) and available next Tuesday and Thursday. If you'd like more info please email roberta.warwick-thom@endemoluk.com - thanks '
> 
> Oh dear, recuperation begins...
> 
> its endemol as well...



And the correct response to Roberta Warwick is....


----------



## treelover (Nov 18, 2011)

'http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/column...y-leeds-anti-capitalism-camp-115875-23569796/'

Good Paul Routledge article in the Mirror


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 18, 2011)

I suspect, like some people here, some of those setting this up might have wanted to see more substantive political discussion at the occupations. Maybe they also questioned the long term viability of a 'camp' and some of the dynamics developing there - like some people here.

But they didn't sit around complaining about it. They joined in, and created a new front in the occupation. I think it's a great move.

Criticism is good - but it's better if you're prepared to do something about it.   *looks pointedly at some of the posters on here*


----------



## elbows (Nov 18, 2011)

UBS HQ across the street have put their blinds down 

http://twitpic.com/7ftwgg


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 18, 2011)

an interesting show of strength as the winter draws in.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 18, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> I suspect, like some people here, some of those setting this up might have wanted to see more substantive political discussion at the occupations. Maybe they also questioned the long term viability of a 'camp' and some of the dynamics developing there - like some people here.
> 
> But they didn't sit around complaining about it. They joined in, and created a new front in the occupation. I think it's a great move.
> 
> Criticism is good - but it's better if you're prepared to do something about it. *looks pointedly at some of the posters on here*



wag that finger any harder and it'll fall off


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 18, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> wag that finger any harder and it'll fall off


I know, I thought that as I wrote it, then thought, fuck it, I don't mind looking like a dick in order to point out other people are being dicks


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 18, 2011)

elbows said:


> UBS HQ across the street have put their blinds down
> 
> http://twitpic.com/7ftwgg



lol- the occupy lot should set up the old plastic cups and string telephone as a link to the workers at the hq


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Nov 18, 2011)

maldwyn said:


> I should think there's already a power supply  . . .



Bloomberg reporting . . .

     Phoenix said the non-residential building, without a shower or electricity at present . . .


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm sure they can have stand-up washes at the sink, or revel in grime, depending on personal choices..


----------



## London_Calling (Nov 18, 2011)

Hopefully this is indicative of good strategic thinking at senior levels of the movement - it certainly seems a strong move in terms of diversification and keeping one step ahead.


----------



## redsquirrel (Nov 18, 2011)

Good move, well done those involved.


----------



## Riklet (Nov 19, 2011)

Anyone else see Will (?) in the Grauniad vid? At least he's doing something constructive with his ban-hammered time


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## kenny g (Nov 19, 2011)

I have always had time for will. I think the shit he faced from some people here when he put forward a proposal re: an event in the city a few months ago was pathetic. Especially as the people who were bleating about the need to engage in endless meetings before any action were proved somewhat wrong come August!

Good to see that him about and appearing to have a good time. And guess what..being banned from U75 shouldn't mean that much.

No saying that people shouldn't be banned if they are acting as idiots.


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## newbie (Nov 19, 2011)

ach, this place is far too middle-aged and cluttered up with been there done that got the tshirt and reinforcing each others cynicism. The young and scatty don't stand a chance if they turn up here to throw around ideas about. Good thing not many of them do.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 19, 2011)

kenny g said:


> I have always had time for will. I think the shit he faced from some people here when he put forward a proposal re: an event in the city a few months ago was pathetic. Especially as the people who were bleating about the need to engage in endless meetings before any action were proved somewhat wrong come August!


Well, the timing in relation to Occupy Wall St was somewhat key to getting this going. I would guess that it was also called by a bunch of people with contacts with other activists (though I've never met anyone who knows quite who put out the original callout - my guess was the people who had been occupying Trafalgar Sq a few months before). I think will's attempt would have been a damp squib, which isn't to say these boards _aren't_ full of miserable moaning old bastards who would persuade themselves to stay at home on revolution day because people with the 'wrong' ideology had called it. They are


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2011)

Riklet said:


> Anyone else see Will (?) in the Grauniad vid? At least he's doing something constructive with his ban-hammered time



Will is doing okay and yes he is using his time well...he is on a serious banner making mission at the moment and the results so far are really impressive. I think he posted some of his designs on one of these thread...not sure where though.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 19, 2011)

On the subject of the newly occupied _Bank of Ideas_:

It is really an incredible space, had a walk around/tour of it yesterday. There is access to 4 large office buildings in the complex. At present it is not clear how long it will be occupied, whether it is a temporary or permanant thing etc...but in the meantime, there are plans to use the space well.


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 19, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Will is doing okay and yes he is using his time well...he is on a serious banner making mission at the moment and the results so far are really impressive. I think he posted some of his designs on one of these thread...not sure where though.



Good to hear he's using his time well.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

There was a time I was anti the world and still am to a point but there comes a time in a mans life where questions need answering.

I do sympathise with the protesters but I cant help thinking that most of the people interviewed sound like they have issues. Don't get me wrong I used to sniff fixOfix back in the day and I loved me a hit off a butane gas canister. I was a social cripple and still am to some extent, I don't have many friends and I am uneducated.

However I can't see the point of stinking up private buildings or blocking the public highway.

I am sure some of the people involved are intelligent however, not very many of them look like they've ever paid a drop of tax because they are to busy sponging of the state to fund the disfunction lifestyles and are a complete waste of my taxes that I have to work hard and contribute to the "system"

I think we've got the message and I'm all for our democratic right to protest but this seems to me like a waste of time and serves no real purpose other than failures of society trying to get adulation for partaking in activities that are damaging to the economy they are complaining about putin peoples jobs in jeopordy.

As for Will, and some of the others, they look unemployable.

So the message here is go home, it's not working. Time to regroup and take a long hard look at your strategy, maybe a petition that call for debate in the commons would be a better idea.

Call me names, this is just an opinion.


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## frogwoman (Nov 19, 2011)

> I do sympathise with the protesters






> However I can't see the point of *stinking up private buildings* or blocking the public highway.
> 
> I am sure some of the people involved are intelligent however, *not very many of the look like they've ever paid a drop of tax because they are to busy sponging of the state to fund the disfunction lifestyles and are a complete waste of my taxes*


 


> *failures of society trying to get adulation for partaking in activities that are damaging to the economy* they are complaining about putin peoples jobs in jeopordy.
> 
> 
> 
> > As for Will, and some of the others, *they look unemployable.*


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## peterkro (Nov 19, 2011)

southside said:


> I do sympathise with the protesters but



As always everything before the but is bullshit.


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## Kaka Tim (Nov 19, 2011)

Of course its well known that you can tell how much tax a person pays and their employment history just by looking at them.

But its not nearly as realiable as telling just how much of a cunt someone is by their embittered, ill-informed dribblings on the internet.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

Kaka Tim said:


> Of course its well known that you can tell how much tax a person pays and their employment history just by looking at them.
> 
> But its not nearly as realiable as telling just how much of a cunt someone is by their embittered, ill-informed dribblings on the internet.



I'm not embittered, I embrace my mediocrity.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

Can you tell me what they actually want.

I understand that they are oposed to inequality and the cuts as am I, what ideas for change are they proposing?


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## emanymton (Nov 19, 2011)

peterkro said:


> As always everything before the but is bullshit.


You mean the bit before is a lie and the bit after is bullshit. I appreciate that in common usage "lie" and "bullshit" are synonymous  but in this case I think the difference matters.


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## xes (Nov 19, 2011)

southside said:


> Can you tell me what they actually want.
> 
> I understand that they are oposed to inequality and the cuts as am I, what ideas for change are they proposing?


a-cheep rizlas
b-lower the price of rizlas

the occupy movement isn't really about the cuts, it's about everything tbh. It's about the hold and power which is held in the hands of large businesses and the sway they have in making govermential decisions, it's about the corruption and greed of those who are supposed to be on our side and are supposed to be working for us, to make life better. But do the exact opposite. It's about all of us, who want to be able to live decent lives, to provide for our families and be able to stand proud after working hard and striving to make your life better, but get beaten down at every single turn. yes it's vague, yes there are many confilcting opinions umungst those who are out there wanting to make a difference. But that's a good thing, that's the sort of enviroment where ideas can grow and views can be discussed. This isn't 1 protest about 1 thing, this is many protests against many things. You need to look into what anon are up to, what their manifesto is, project mayhem starts soon. I'm pretty sure that the occupy movement is just the start. Watch this space, because this is far from over.

choose your side mother fucker, becasue the games have well and truly begun.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

xes said:


> the occupy movement isn't really about the cuts, it's about everything tbh. It's about the hold and power which is held in the hands of large businesses and the sway they have in making govermential decisions, it's about the corruption and greed of those who are supposed to be on our side and are supposed to be working for us, to make life better. But do the exact opposite. It's about all of us, who want to be able to live decent lives, to provide for our families and be able to stand proud after working hard and striving to make your life better, but get beaten down at every single turn. yes it's vague, yes there are many confilcting opinions umungst those who are out there wanting to make a difference. But that's a good thing, that's the sort of enviroment where ideas can grow and views can be discussed. This isn't 1 protest about 1 thing, this is many protests against many things. You need to look into what anon are up to, what their manifesto is, project mayhem starts soon. I'm pretty sure that the occupy movement is just the start. Watch this space, because this is far from over.



Poject mayhem? The bank of no ideas? It's all bollocks.

Nothing will change, the jackboot of democracy will continue to stamp on your face again and again and again.

It's nothing new and I hate the corporate bullshit but were forced to live under the controls of capitalism because there isn't much in the way of an alternative at the moment, we are programed to conform to it's mechanisms from the very begining.  It's beyond fucked but most of us have to conform to it, it's bollocks and we're stuck with it.

The only way to attempt to bring about change is through the ballot box.  Occupy need a viable political wing otherwise it's all just pie in the sky.  I can't see the 1% bending in any direction other than be hell bent on keeping things the same.

I'm not saying don't make a noise about it but OL need direction and maybe the best way forward would be for them to set up a political wing and stand in an election.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

xes said:


> choose your side mother fucker, becasue the games have well and truly begun.




What are the hours and how much is the sick pay?

They have my psychological profile? like fuck do they. All they have done is post porn on facefuck and hack the playstation network.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 19, 2011)

last paragraph two points

No to the latter, yes to the former


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> last paragraph two points
> 
> No to the latter, yes to the former



I forgot the Ddos stuff.


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

xes said:


> the occupy movement isn't really about the cuts, it's about everything tbh.


And because it's about everything, it's about nothing.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> And because it's about everything, it's about nothing.



It carries little weight, some dropouts dropout and occupy a few buildings that no one uses and set up a few tents which they don't even sleep in because it's cold.

I'm waiting in anticipation of Fawks Virus that'll probably send every one a picture of some gay porn.

Ddos microdross and spend the next few months waiting for their ISP to hand over the info to the feds.

My Psychological profile isn't worth much, it probably states average intel/dumb fuck, angry cunt who's on the brink of signing on the chat.


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

southside said:


> It carries little weight, some dropouts dropout and occupy a few buildings that no one uses and set up a few tents which they don't even sleep in because it's cold.


Just because I'm also cynical about the movement, don't think that means I agree with you. They're not dropouts, they're well-meaning but naive people (and generally middle class). I think you should consider a little more and judge a little less.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Just because I'm also cynical about the movement, don't think that means I agree with you. They're not dropouts, they're well-meaning but naive people (and generally middle class). I think you should consider a little more and judge a little less.



Give it a few years and they'll be conforming properly, like good citizens, you know, once they realize that you can't beat the rich and powerful. theres just too many of the cunts flying the flag of democracy.


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## freshnero (Nov 19, 2011)

My respect goes out to those that have taken the time to at least bring the issues to the media attention


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## Blagsta (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Just because I'm also cynical about the movement, don't think that means I agree with you. They're not dropouts, they're well-meaning but naive people (and generally middle class). I think you should consider a little more and judge a little less.



Hang on a moment, weren't you arguing against wage rises for workers the other day?


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

Don't remember that - where?


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## claphamboy (Nov 19, 2011)

southside said:


> Nothing will change, the jackboot of democracy will continue to stamp on your face again and again and again.



I'll sadly agree with you on that. 

But, it doesn't stop me supporting the occupy movement 100%  - at least they are doing something and generating media coverage well beyond what you would expect for the numbers involved, and they are making things uncomfortable for those in power, that can't get their heads around how to deal with the situation.

All good stuff, in my book.


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## Blagsta (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> Don't remember that - where?



here

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...to-talk-about-eva.284307/page-5#post-10645946


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

What's that got to do with this?


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## Blagsta (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> What's that got to do with this?



You're having a go at others for being middle class.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> I'll sadly agree with you on that.
> 
> But, it doesn't stop me supporting the occupy movement 100% - at least they are doing something and generating media coverage well beyond what you would expect for the numbers involved, and they are making things uncomfortable for those in power, that can't get their heads around how to deal with the situation.
> 
> All good stuff, in my book.



True!


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> You're having a go at others for being middle class.


I'm not. I was just opposing Southside's claim that the Occupy people are unemployable dropouts. And I still don't see what that's got to do with what I said in the immigration thread.


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## treelover (Nov 19, 2011)

Are the Times a' changing? stunning renditition of Masters Of War by Pearl Jam on the Letterman Show


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## treelover (Nov 19, 2011)

Corporate plans to undermine the Occupy Movement
http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.c...ut-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street-video


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## Blagsta (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> I'm not. I was just opposing Southside's claim that the Occupy people are unemployable dropouts. And I still don't see what that's got to do with what I said in the immigration thread.



No, I don't suppose you do.


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

To quote from a Talking Heads song:

_You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything._


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## Blagsta (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> To quote from a Talking Heads song:
> 
> _You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything._



I'll explain then.  You posted an anti-working class opinion about wages, one that I associate with middle class business owners/managers.


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## southside (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> To quote from a Talking Heads song:
> 
> _You're talking a lot, but you're not saying anything._



Or as John Wayne would say "Your long on mouth and short on ears"
So, what did you say on the immigration thread?


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

southside said:


> Or as John Wayne would say "Your long on mouth and short on ears"
> So, what did you say on the immigration thread?


See Blagsta's link above - post 1772.


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

Blagsta said:


> I'll explain then. You posted an anti-working class opinion about wages, one that I associate with middle class business owners/managers.


And I have just explained that I am not anti-middle class. Nor am I anti-working class - it's just the way you have interpreted it.


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## Blagsta (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> And I have just explained that I am not anti-middle class. Nor am I anti-working class - it's just the way you have interpreted it.



So why post what you did about wages?  That's a purely boss/manager pov.


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## Dr Dolittle (Nov 19, 2011)

It's a pragmatic POV, as opposed to a pie-in-the-sky class war one.


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## Blagsta (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> It's a pragmatic POV, as opposed to a pie-in-the-sky class war one.



Typical liberal bollocks.


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## yield (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> It's a pragmatic POV, as opposed to a pie-in-the-sky class war one.


What rubbish. Why can't you see what's going on?


> “There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”


nytimes November 26, 2006


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## shaman75 (Nov 20, 2011)

The occupation of the UBS building seems quite apt considering the Guardian's story suggesting a conflict of affairs over the planning permission of the new UBS London HQ...


> The City of London Corporation is facing fresh conflict of interest questions over links between senior elected representatives and property developers involved in major projects in and around the Square Mile.
> 
> The latest case involves a member of the corporation's planning committee with an alleged conflict of interest over his links to a property company given permission to go ahead with a disputed development.
> 
> ...


 
Quite ironic, when we are continually being told business will move out of London if made to 'pay their way', that UBS want to relocate their HQ to London to escape the Swiss regime...


> UBS could move the headquarters of its investment bank to London to avoid tough capital requirements being planned by the Swiss authorities, according to reports in the US.
> 
> A move to London from its Zurich headquarters would allow the bank to minimise the capital it keeps to protect against a repeat of the near collapse it suffered in 2008.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/...ment-bank-to-uk-to-avoid-swiss-capital-regime


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## shaman75 (Nov 20, 2011)

Mark Thomas is making an appearance on Sunday at the UBS Occupation, 8 - 9pm.

http://www.bankofideas.org.uk/events/event/mark-thomas-comedian-and-activist


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 20, 2011)

Has been a great in the Ocuupy London sites this weekend, the Bank of Ideas has brought re-newed public and press interest and having delegates from 17 other occupy sites in the UK and Ireland has created lots of excitement and a platform to explore what things all the sites can work on towards under the banner of Occupy Britain.


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## treelover (Nov 20, 2011)

wish i had gone this weekend rather than last, nothing much happened then...


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## shaman75 (Nov 20, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Mark Thomas is making an appearance on Sunday at the UBS Occupation, 8 - 9pm.
> 
> http://www.bankofideas.org.uk/events/event/mark-thomas-comedian-and-activist



Looks like this could be on at 6pm now.  Or 7pm.  Seems to depend which site you look at.


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## southside (Nov 20, 2011)

If you can take a look at some of the ludicrus statments from people who have posted on the OL initial Statement.
HAHA!
I don't mean to mock them but it's very studenty stuff. They want everything and nothing with an underlying smuttering of some sort of fudge communism? Banish all debt for one, Although good and very nice in theory it's obviously not a good idea.
Around the bottom of the list of ridiculous comments where the odd sane person has posted. someone mentions the Venus Project where man machine and nature can live in harmony? Nice in theory but I can't help thinking lay off the weed man.
I understand that people are upset, it's what happens in the material world but if you don't want to pay don't buy it's that simple.

The sad truth is we all want the goodies, new croc of the latest techno shit. We all want the dream job. And we all wan't to have a nice standard of living.

All good I hear you say.

The truth is that if you don't want to conform to capitalism don't buy into it's mechanisms only to jump up and down when the repo man comes knocking your door down.


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## Brainaddict (Nov 20, 2011)

southside said:


> The truth is that if you don't want to conform to capitalism don't buy into it's mechanisms only to jump up and down when the repo man comes knocking your door down.


Do outline the resources available to me outside of the capitalist framework. Assume, for a moment, if you will, that I have no particular wish to be a peasant farmer.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 20, 2011)

Southside, you are channeling Louise Mensch only I'm sure I don't want to fuck you.

'fudge communism' lol they are nowhere even near the fudge stage.

Someone on the occupy threads got it right when they said these people are still at the stage where they are petitioning the king to remove his corrupt advisors and rule fairly once more.


----------



## southside (Nov 20, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Southside, you are channeling Louise Mensch only I'm sure I don't want to fuck you.
> 
> 'fudge communism' lol they are nowhere even near the fudge stage.
> 
> Someone on the occupy threads got it right when they said these people are still at the stage where they are petitioning the king to remove his corrupt advisors and rule fairly once more.



Sadly though Dot the dollar is king and we are all slaves to it's wanton whoreidness.

It's never been fair which doesn't make it right, they've fucked up royally and it's true something needs to be done about it.  The problem from my prospective are we are all pretty much in the same shitty boat and I doubt any cunt knows what the fuck to do to fix it. I bet they are shitting it because really they know things do need to change.  How that change is implimented and under what terms is beyond my capacity and it's probably beyond  theirs because of how pox ridden by capitalism we all are.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 20, 2011)

I've tried to get around the stock market jargon used in an interview with a market analyst, blogger and journalist, Barry Ritholtz, whose recent article in the _Washington Post_ has gone viral. I haven't read that particular article yet, nevertheless, he states, and there is increasing evidence to back this up, that it was the "radical deregulation" of the financial system itself that has allowed bankers to set their own rules. This setting of their own rules has caused the banking crisis. Therefore, he concludes 'free market capitalism', is an intellectual corrupt ideology that has caused huge economic damage globally. Furthermore, he states that the US Congress are unwilling to go against those responsible, as the huge wealth that has been amassed by a tiny few has been used to buy them off. In the interview, the US Congress is described as a "council of whores".


----------



## elbows (Nov 20, 2011)

Well I still reckon the banking & financial crisis is not the main problem. Other aspects of the system encouraged this stuff in order to temporarily overcome other real deep problems, ranging from limits to growth due to peak oil etc, and massive global imbalances in trade. The problem has been growing since at least the 1970's, and they've done nothing meaningful with the decades they bought. Specific forms of greed and bank/market nuttiness has created its own problems, but even if we fixed those we wouldn't find ourselves in a stable situation.


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 20, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Southside, you are channeling Louise Mensch only I'm sure I don't want to fuck you.



I know you hate 'likes', so have a massive fucking LOL instead!


----------



## audiotech (Nov 20, 2011)

@ elbows Well yes, but that's a perspective from one market analyst, which is damning in itself and caused enough ripples to go viral.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 20, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Southside, you are channeling Louise Mensch only I'm sure I don't want to fuck you.






DotCommunist said:


> Someone on the occupy threads got it right when they said these people are still at the stage where they are petitioning the king to remove his corrupt advisors and rule fairly once more.



Wasn't me, but I'm going to steal that one.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2011)

audiotech said:


> @ elbows Well yes, but that's a perspective from one market analyst, which is damning in itself and caused enough ripples to go viral.


That's the bog standard mainstream economists view and has been since late 2008  Is that banality really 'going viral'?


----------



## audiotech (Nov 20, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That's the bog standard mainstream economists view and has been since late 2008  Is that banality really 'going viral'?



Yes, understanding that presently in the US and elsewhere, rather than the ideology of "free market capitalism" being the reason behind the crisis, other factors have been blamed, like government, or those who couldn't afford mortgages taking them on.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2011)

That deregulation and associated practices _was_ the ideology of free market capitalism in concrete practice.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 20, 2011)

Leading to a reckless kleptocracy (rule by thieves).


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 20, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Leading to a reckless kleptocracy (rule by thieves).


So was it the practice of free market ideology or not?  I'm having trouble making sense of what you're trying to say.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 20, 2011)

Thought you were making a statement in your last post, as no question mark.

Yes.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 21, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Southside, you are channeling Louise Mensch only I'm sure I don't want to fuck you.



As claphamboy says, I know you're not keen on likes, but that's given me a real laugh this morning.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

So how long do people think it will be before the City of London and Met police charge in with pepper spray and batons and batter the fuck out of the London Occupy lot?


----------



## IC3D (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> So how long do people think it will be before the City of London and Met police charge in with pepper spray and batons and batter the fuck out of the London Occupy lot?


I think the protesters at St Pauls are lucky  because the CofE are having to appear all what would Jesus do? for the the sake of their congregations, possibly hoping God will smite them with a cold spell of Daily Mail proportions.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

IC3D said:


> I think the protesters at St Pauls are lucky because the CofE are having to appear all what would Jesus do? for the the sake of their congregations, possibly hoping God will smite them with a cold spell of Daily Mail proportions.


So how long will this provide protection from Mammon?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> So how long will this provide protection from Mammon?



I think that will depend on how the fallout from the USA pepper-spraying incident pans out.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

8ball said:


> I think that will depend on how the fallout from the USA pepper-spraying incident pans out.


The backlash from the USA police violence won't last long. It won't for a moment inhibit the Met or the City of London Police from attacking the tented space.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The backlash from the USA police violence won't last long. It won't for a moment inhibit the Met or the City of London Police from attacking the tented space.



Ok, maybe you know more about it than me, but if I was the Met I'd be watching what's happening over the pond carefully and avoiding any similat PR foul-ups.  You can pick people up and carry them away, put them in the van etc. but enough pictures of the Met pepper-spraying passive resisters in the face would piss off the general public pretty quickly.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

8ball said:


> Ok, maybe you know more about it than me, but if I was the Met I'd be watching what's happening over the pond carefully and avoiding any similat PR foul-ups. You can pick people up and carry them away, put them in the van etc. but enough pictures of the Met pepper-spraying passive resisters in the face would piss off the general public pretty quickly.



The met don't care about people they _kill_.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The met don't care about people they _kill_.



They do care about getting caught, though.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

They don't give a fuck. They are never held to account.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> They don't give a fuck. They are never held to account.



So you think they would, as an extreme example, shoot a bunch of protesters on camera at the same time that we are seeing similar things happening in Egypt?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

8ball said:


> So you think they would, as an extreme example, shoot a bunch of protesters on camera at the same time that we are seeing similar things happening in Egypt?


That's a straw man for sure.

They would if told to do so, attack the camp with riot cops armed with pepper spray, batons, dogs and horses in full view of the cameras.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> That's a straw man for sure.



Not really, especially since you've just answered it in such a run-of-the-mill way.



TopCat said:


> They would if told to do so, attack the camp with riot cops armed with pepper spray, batons, dogs and horses in full view of the cameras.



I don't doubt that the footsoldiers would act as you say, but I don't think the senior brass at the Met would go for that at this point if their politician masters suggested such a thing.  And the politicians' corporate handlers would be very mindful about how this would play with the focus groups.

I think we'd need some serious escalation and the media machine in full 'anti-evil-rioter' swing for a while before they'd try something like that.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

8ball said:


> Not really, especially since you've just answered it in such a run-of-the-mill way.
> 
> I don't doubt that the footsoldiers would act as you say, but I don't think the senior brass at the Met would go for that at this point if their politician masters suggested such a thing. And the politicians' corporate handlers would be very mindful about how this would play with the focus groups.
> 
> I think we'd need some serious escalation and the media machine in full 'anti-evil-rioter' swing for a while before they'd try something like that.


You are a naive skull waiting for a lick 'o baton. It won't be long.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> You are a naive skull waiting for a lick 'o baton. It won't be long.



And you are a very thick one that doesn't read too good.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Nov 21, 2011)

It's interesting that this is happening at a time when the corrupt relationship between the Met and the Murdoch press is under scrutiny of a sort.

I'd argue that the collusion between the Met's PR slime, the smear-job merchants in the press, especially the Murdoch press and the government (any government since the Miners Strike at least) has been crucial in pushing the 'protesters are violent scum and the cops are the good guys' line. The problem is the focus is all on the Murdoch press up to no good and only minimally on the ludicrously unenthusiastic investigation of their misdeeds. Nobody is really asking about the core relationship between the cops and the scummy press, so perfectly illustrated when the woman being beaten up on video by Delroy Smellie withdrew her evidence explicitly for fear of tabloid smears.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

And TC, if you could let the London lot know how long it will be before the Met charge in with pepper spray and batons and batter the fuck out of them it would be nice.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> It's interesting that this is happening at a time when the corrupt relationship between the Met and the Murdoch press is under scrutiny of a sort.



I think at the moment the BBC's bias concerns me more - people see the Beeb as reputable and "impartial".


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

8ball said:


> And TC, if you could let the London lot know how long it will be before the Met charge in with pepper spray and batons and batter the fuck out of them it would be nice.


That was my original question you idiot.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> That was my original question you idiot.



Ok, let's go through things at a nice gentle pace.

Why don't you tell me why you think I'm being naive and I can point out where you've got things confused, or perhaps be persuaded by your argument.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 21, 2011)

hate to butt in, but if anyone involved in the camp could give this a mention that would be fab.  its tomorrow and about 5 mins walk from st pauls


http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wo...he-disabled-rights-uk-conference-22-november/


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

8ball said:


> Ok, let's go through things at a nice gentle pace.
> 
> Why don't you tell me why you think I'm being naive and I can point out where you've got things confused, or perhaps be persuaded by your argument.


I think it's naive to think that the police's fear of bad publicity (in the light of the widely reported US police brutality) will give them pause for thought instead of attacking the Occupy London protests when they get an opportunity. It will be messy but they don't care.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I think it's naive to think that the police's fear of bad publicity (in the light of the widely reported US police brutality) will give them pause for thought instead of attacking the Occupy London protests when they get an opportunity. It will be messy but they don't care.



So do you think they are chomping at the bit for an opportunity?

Like I said before, I think the rank and file would mostly do what they were told (many with a great deal of enthusiasm), with the odd dissenter here and there.

I think there are senior officers in the Met who wouldn't want anything to do with a brutal crackdown - the Met has different internal 'voices' (you hear these chirping up occasionally whenever the Government wants to bring in some ropey authoritarian nonsense, the 'marching people to cashpoints to pay spot fines' being one example that springs to mind). Various corporate interests close to Government wouldn't want to be associated with a likely resultant public outcry either.

If they went down the route of unjustifiable violence in full view of the media I think it wouldn't be long before it became clear to everyone what the lie of the land is in our 'democracy'. So I think for the foreseeable future (until something 'gamechanging' occurs), it will (in this country at least) be a patchwork of toleration, dispersal by manhandling, and the odd case of 'overenthusiastic use of force' (because you can't rein them all in all the time). Where proper violence is used I think they will be careful to handle the fallout, which given their incompetence in managing these things will mean keeping it out of the way and behind closed doors where possible (hence likely increased use of 'snatch squads').

That said, I think if these protests were taken to be a _meaningful_ threat to the current state of affairs, the protesters would be met with armoured bulldozers and flamethrowers rather than batons.  The protesters are just seen as a minor nuisance with little public backing at the moment.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

When the moment comes, they will attack occupy London in the same manner as they attacked the pop up tents in Trafalgar Square on the last Student Demo.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> When the moment comes, they will attack occupy London in the same manner as they attacked the pop up tents in Trafalgar Square on the last Student Demo.



It's what you consider to be 'the moment' that I'm not sure about.  Obviously it's not the moment just yet, so I'm wondering what you think will need to change to make it 'the moment'.

Since you don't believe they care about 'impression management' it won't be that they're waiting for an excuse of some kind.  So what do you think it is they're waiting for?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

The police have been told by their bosses to hold off in London. I think that you were to an extent right in saying this is because the politicians are concerned about the attitude of the Church of England. They do not want a situation to occur where some impassioned vicar of note links arms with the protesters.

I would surmise they the politicians are trying to mitigate that threat right now. When they have done so, in go the plod.


----------



## xes (Nov 21, 2011)

well, I hope folk will be prepared with helmets sheilds and weapons. Give them some of their own treatment, kettle them and hold them in a square for an entire day. (whilst kicking fuck out of them)


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 21, 2011)

bring back battle bishops who wade in tith the good book in one hand and a mace in the other.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> The police have been told by their bosses to hold off in London. I think that you were to an extent right in saying this is because the politicians are concerned about the attitude of the Church of England. They do not want a situation to occur where some impassioned vicar of note links arms with the protesters.
> 
> I would surmise they the politicians are trying to mitigate that threat right now. When they have done so, in go the plod.



Wasn't me who mentioned the CoE but that's a good point. Still broadly comes under the 'publicity' angle, I'd say. I think you're right that the Govt will be in 'consultation' with the Church as we speak. But you know what it's like trying to argue with religious people, could take a while. 

I still think the Govt also won't want people making the connection between pro-democracy protesters getting abused in places like Egypt and the situation here, though, and will have identified that as a danger of getting too heavy. I guess they'll have to approach this either by taking a more equivocal stance towards the Arab spring, or trying to stick a wedge between that and the Occupy movements in the public imagination.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

xes said:


> well, I hope folk will be prepared with helmets sheilds and weapons. Give them some of their own treatment, kettle them and hold them in a square for an entire day. (whilst kicking fuck out of them)


Well this is the issue is it not?

Will the certain knowledge that the police will use force to clear the occupiers cause the protesters to prepare for that attack and prepare to resist?

Or do they think that being attacked will advance their cause?

Or will fear of fighting cause some to be disingenuous and support NVDA even thought they know it does not work?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 21, 2011)

Would the CoE allow plod to batter fuck of out peaceful protesters on hallowed ground? or would they turn a blind eye? Don't know, but i reckon they'll be hoofed out before the Christmas celebrations begin, one way or another.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

it will be interesting for sure. Given they will have undercover plod in that camp, I think they may set a tent or two on fire and then clear the camp for everyone's own good.


----------



## Corax (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Or will fear of fighting cause some to be disingenuous and support NVDA even thought they know it does not work?


This is a gen Q, not a snide remark - I'm undecided on the value of NVDA:

Does NVDA not work any more than other tactics don't work?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 21, 2011)

Corax said:


> This is a gen Q, not a snide remark - I'm undecided on the value of NVDA:
> 
> Does NVDA not work any more than other tactics don't work?


Deserves a whole thread to itself seriously.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2011)

TopCat said:


> it will be interesting for sure. Given they will have undercover plod in that camp, I think they may set a tent or two on fire and then clear the camp for everyone's own good.



They'll be considering that sort of thing - though you can imagine the mess if they got caught.

I can think of a much better way of doing almost the same with little to no risk (not mentioning it on these boards ,though, excuse the paranoia  ).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 21, 2011)

smokedout said:


> hate to butt in, but if anyone involved in the camp could give this a mention that would be fab. its tomorrow and about 5 mins walk from st pauls
> http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wo...he-disabled-rights-uk-conference-22-november/



Email the link to the occupy LSX media team!


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 21, 2011)

Why would the Met need to worry about bad publicity? Which mainstream media organisation would 'expose' them? The BBC put up a video of the squatting protest in Parliament Square the other week that to my eyes clearly depicted police officers beating a restrained arrestee. This was not commented upon, either by them, even though they posted the video, or by any other media organisation. The Met have nothing to worry about.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Nov 21, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Why would the Met need to worry about bad publicity? Which mainstream media organisation would 'expose' them? The BBC put up a video of the squatting protest in Parliament Square the other week that to my eyes clearly depicted police officers beating a restrained arrestee. This was not commented upon, either by them, even though they posted the video, or by any other media organisation. The Met have nothing to worry about.



They may not have anything much to worry about, but they might be feeling nervous with their corrupt relationship with the Murdoch press on the verge of scrutiny.

So far, the emphasis has been on hacking, but if any of the main broadsheet editors grew some balls, they could drag the collusion between the Met and the tabloids and their signature approach of supressing dissent with violence and then using gutter press smear tactics to confuse the public and intimidate the victims of police violence into the light, which has to be a concern.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> They may not have anything much to worry about, but they might be feeling nervous with their corrupt relationship with the Murdoch press on the verge of scrutiny.
> 
> So far, the emphasis has been on hacking, but if any of the main broadsheet editors grew some balls, they could =drag the collusion between the Met and the gutter press in relation to supressing dissent with violence and smear tactics into the light, which has to be a concern.


why does it have to be a serious concern for broadsheet editors? it's not like broadsheets haven't smeared demonstrators left, right and centre for many years. lest we forget: the sunday times and the £30 j18 protesters were said to have received, not to mention the samurai swords the mayday protestors were supposed to have had.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Nov 21, 2011)

I said they potentially could and that the cops might be worried about it.

I didn't claim that e.g. Alan Rusbridger actually had functioning testicles.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 22, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I said they potentially could and that the cops might be worried about it.
> 
> I didn't claim that e.g. Alan Rusbridger actually had functioning testicles.


So it's unlikely eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2011)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I said they potentially could and that the cops might be worried about it.
> 
> I didn't claim that e.g. Alan Rusbridger actually had functioning testicles.


so, when pigs are a menace to airlines this might happen.


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 22, 2011)

What is Anarchism? - Friday 25th November 2011, 6:30 PM - 7:30 P @ The Bank of Ideas.


----------



## Corax (Nov 22, 2011)

Even when they cause someone's death the media are only too happy to spread their disinfo (IT being part of the protest, filth medics pelted with bottles etc etc etc).  If I was a copper, I'd feel quite secure in meting out violence tbh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 23, 2011)

southside said:


> As for Will, and some of the others, they look unemployable.



You can see a person's intelligence/knowledge and ascertain the multiple skills they have just by looking at them?

Please put a picture of yourself up so I can have a go!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 23, 2011)

Dr Dolittle said:


> I'm not. I was just opposing Southside's claim that the Occupy people are unemployable dropouts.



Good call, because they are not. Many still work/study and are fitting their input into the occupy movement around those things.


----------



## paolo (Nov 23, 2011)

Looks like I'm doing a talk. It's not directly related but might inspire a few people. Or dogs. Or pigeons.

http://www.bankofideas.org.uk/events/event/urban-exploration-discovering-abandoned-buildings/


----------



## London_Calling (Nov 23, 2011)

Sounds good - I guess you just turn up and find the door?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Nov 23, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Looks like I'm doing a talk. It's not directly related but might inspire a few people. Or dogs. Or pigeons.
> 
> http://www.bankofideas.org.uk/events/event/urban-exploration-discovering-abandoned-buildings/


might be an idea to start a new thread with upcoming events at that venue? I know of a few more coming up that may be of interest....


----------



## paolo (Nov 23, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Sounds good - I guess you just turn up and find the door?



Given the topic, ideally I'd go in from the roof.


----------



## London_Calling (Nov 23, 2011)

Well, you are  a bit off the route of the River Fleet there....


----------



## paolo (Nov 23, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Well, you are  a bit off the route of the River Fleet there....



Still got the waders.


----------



## treelover (Nov 24, 2011)

http://occupylsx.org
http://occupylsx.org/?p=1421#comments

A reply to Evading Standards and other MSM stories about the 'anti-social' behaviour, etc at the camp, imo, its faultless, there are definitely some very sharp cookies at OLSX


----------



## southside (Nov 24, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Please put a picture of yourself up so I can have a go!


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 24, 2011)

fucking dimwit then


----------



## treelover (Nov 25, 2011)

Apparently Alan Bennet was at Occupy LSX today, a mark of respectability indeed...


----------



## paolo (Nov 25, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Looks like I'm doing a talk. It's not directly related but might inspire a few people. Or dogs. Or pigeons.
> 
> http://www.bankofideas.org.uk/events/event/urban-exploration-discovering-abandoned-buildings/



Well, that went ok. At first it looked like I'd just have one person, then ended up with about twenty, in a side-room so people had to make an effort to find it.

The following gig, in the main area, was the What Is Anarchism session. I was gagging for a smoke & a pint, so a two hour session was going to be more than I could manage, but the speaker sounded very good. No red mist rantiness at all. Maybe urban has given me a unfairly poor perception of anarchists.

I might put in a plea for a repeat session (they had loads in for it, so looks like the demand is there).


----------



## dennisr (Nov 26, 2011)

treelover said:


> Apparently Alan Bennet was at Occupy LSX today, a mark of respectability indeed...


oh fuck - that's the end


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 26, 2011)

Has anyone seen this pile of dishonest poo from Dan Hannan?



> 7. Let’s tackle the idea that being on the Left means being on the side of ordinary people, while being on the Right means defending privileged elites. It’s hard to think of a single tax, or a single regulation, that doesn’t end up privileging some vested interest at the expense of the general population. The reason governments keep growing is because of what economists call ‘dispersed costs and concentrated gains’: people are generally more aware the benefits we receive than of the taxes they pay.
> 8. Capitalism, with all its imperfections, is the fairest scheme yet tried. In a system based on property rights and free contract, people succeed by providing an honest service to others. Bill Gates became rich by enriching hundreds of millions of us: I am typing these words using one of his programmes. He gained from the exchange (adding fractionally to his net worth), and so did I (adding to my convenience). In a state-run system, by contrast, third parties get to hand out the goodies.
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...-evil-capitalists-really-think/#disqus_thread


----------



## 8ball (Nov 26, 2011)

Why do you think its dishonest - couldn't it just be an opinion you disagree with? 

I just meant those two points, by the way - not read the whole thing yet.


----------



## GEN.Eccentric (Nov 26, 2011)

8ball said:


> Why do you think its dishonest - couldn't it just be an opinion you disagree with?
> 
> I just meant those two points, by the way - not read the whole thing yet.


You dont think that Hannan is backing up his opinions with self serving lies then?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 26, 2011)

GEN.Eccentric said:


> You dont think that Hannan is backing up his opinions with self serving lies then?



I think that in too many cases in his article he's not backing his opinions up with anything at all, especially points 1, 6 and 7.

Plus, point 8 is predicated on a false premise.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 26, 2011)

know it is from Bristol camp but is to do with vulnerable people and drunks at camp
http://www.occupybristoluk.org/alcoholics-and-drug-users-are-not-bad-people/


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Nov 26, 2011)

ddraig said:


> know it is from Bristol camp but is to do with vulnerable people and drunks at camp
> http://www.occupybristoluk.org/alcoholics-and-drug-users-are-not-bad-people/



hmmm..
that was a good piece.. though 'blatant title' is blatant
 amongst others i have been tasked on on producing a 'best practices guideline' with 'street folk' etc.. basically a heap of people with chaotic lives at the mo but are finding some stability within the #occupy movement....
*will start a new thread on this issue so as to not disrail asap*

Any reports from the London/UK #occupy recently?


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 27, 2011)

8ball said:


> Why do you think its dishonest - couldn't it just be an opinion you disagree with?
> 
> I just meant those two points, by the way - not read the whole thing yet.


No. Just taking one point, how has Bill Gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself?

This is sub-Randian.


> Capitalism, with all its imperfections, is the fairest scheme yet tried.



How does he know it's "the fairest scheme ever tried"? Has he tried any others? No.

Hannan's opinions are rarely well-informed.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> No. Just taking one point, how has Bill Gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself?



You need to read the bit after the ':'



nino_savatte said:


> How does he know it's "the fairest scheme ever tried"? Has he tried any others? No..



see #1870


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 27, 2011)

8ball said:


> You need to read the bit after the ':'



I read it.



> see #1870



Which is pretty much what I said.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Which is pretty much what I said.





Never mind...


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 27, 2011)

Yes, exactly. Never mind.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 27, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> hmmm..
> that was a good piece.. though 'blatant title' is blatant
> amongst others i have been tasked on on producing a 'best practices guideline' with 'street folk' etc.. basically a heap of people with chaotic lives at the mo but are finding some stability within the #occupy movement....
> *will start a new thread on this issue so as to not disrail asap*



do it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 27, 2011)

8ball said:


> Why do you think its dishonest - couldn't it just be an opinion you disagree with?
> 
> I just meant those two points, by the way - not read the whole thing yet.



w/r/t the first point, the weight of history bears out the "left = pro-the masses", "right = pro-establishment" argument, so Hannan should at least acknowledge that history doesn't support his contentions.

w/r/t the second point, I suspect that just about anyone reading Hannan's peroration can think of numerous incidences under capitalism where capitalists have thrived *without* providing an "honest service" to their customers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 27, 2011)

GEN.Eccentric said:


> You dont think that Hannan is backing up his opinions with self serving lies then?



He's doing something even more cretinous - he's backing up his opinions with his ideology. Relying on a belief system for truths can often feel liberating to the individual, but can render them incapable of taking a disinterested view.


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> No. Just taking one point, how has Bill Gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself?
> 
> This is sub-Randian.
> 
> How does he know it's "the fairest scheme ever tried"? Has he tried any others? No.


 
It isn't. Randians scorn concepts like 'fairness.'


----------



## treelover (Nov 27, 2011)

' Mark Edwards
 So, when is it that you all are going to stand up against certain men and women we all know have hijacked the St Pauls occupation for their own, quite dangerous needs?
 Or am I, as one of the few black occupiers, meant to recognise the fact that we just aren't wanted? And the only time you want to see us is at 2 in the morning walking around as part of night watch or tranquility, so that you all ca...n have a good nights sleep, while we have to deal with the racism that has clearly raised its ugly head in this occupation?!?!
 I'm disgusted and ashamed to think that while I attempt to help a cause that I truly believe in, you allow certain characters to swan around making covert videos and recordings that are then sold to the press, check online, damning everything we have all done since 15\10!
 No response or reply is needed to this post, my answer was given when I was left to the mercy of a racist and the police, he says, I work for, and then spent 19 hours in custody! All because I wouldn't allow a drunken coked up banker to assault a female occupier!

 You should be ashamed of yourselves, truly ashamed!'

Anyone know anything about this, is it genuine or a crank? if its the former , its worrying...


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 27, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> It isn't. Randians scorn concepts like 'fairness.'


No kidding. Hence my use of the compound "sub-Randian". It's actually a variation on Rand's notion that capitalism is the "most moral system ever devised".


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> No. Just taking one point, how has Bill Gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself?


are you saying that none of the companies which have used microsoft products have ever turned a profit?

are you honestly saying that none of the people working for microsoft have got richer as a result?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 27, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> w/r/t the first point, the weight of history bears out the "left = pro-the masses", "right = pro-establishment" argument, so Hannan should at least acknowledge that history doesn't support his contentions.



Yes, that's not well backed up.  There's a lot there that isn't.  I'm not sure stating opinions without backing them up properly makes them dishonest, though.



ViolentPanda said:


> w/r/t the second point, I suspect that just about anyone reading Hannan's peroration can think of numerous incidences under capitalism where capitalists have thrived *without* providing an "honest service" to their customers.



Yes, though he tries to give an example of 'non-zero sum' trade as an example of how not all trades have to be exploitative in nature (whether you agree with the particular example is a different matter).

I don't see any reason from the article (and I'm _just_ going on the article), to believe that these aren't honestly-held opinions.  They may not be, but I've seen these arguments deployed in good faith before.


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> No kidding. Hence my use of the compound "sub-Randian". It's actually a variation on Rand's notion that capitalism is the "most moral system ever devised".



At the same time as scorning morality.

Hannan's is a common viewpoint these days, and sounds plausible when you consider that Soviet-style socialism-the only alternative that's been tried- was in many respects more unfair than capitalism. Of course the likes of Hannan use this as a cover for deepening neo-liberalism, which is steadily stripping capitalism of everything that was put there to prevent it being simply the rule of bandits.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 27, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> At the same time as scorning morality.



Rand had funny definitions of words like 'moral'...


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 27, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> are you saying that none of the companies which have used microsoft products have ever turned a profit?
> 
> are you honestly saying that none of the people working for microsoft have got richer as a result?


It's by no means a universal, which is what Hannan was suggesting. I haven't been enriched by Bill Gates. How about you?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> It's by no means a universal, which is what Hannan was suggesting. I haven't been enriched by Bill Gates. How about you?



I guess there's also the argument that if even if your life _has_ been enriched by the existence of Microsoft products, how much of that in total is really down to Bill Gates.


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> It's by no means a universal, which is what Hannan was suggesting. I haven't been enriched by Bill Gates. How about you?


 
He didn't suggest it was universal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> It's by no means a universal, which is what Hannan was suggesting. I haven't been enriched by Bill Gates. How about you?


he didn't suggest it was a universal, he said hundreds of millions of people had been enriched by microsoft. by contrast you said 'how has bill gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself'. you misrepresented hannan. i suppose i have been 'enriched' by gates, to a degree, because it's pretty much a universal qualification for office-based jobs that you have a knowledge of microsoft products, and to some extent gates' products have played a part in my gaining and retaining work. i've lost a job in the past because i couldn't use a microsoft product, so there's a little bit of evidence that people ignorant of gates' products can be - at least temporarily - poorer.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 27, 2011)

surely all the people who've worked for microsoft or bought their products have enriched bill gates rather than the other way round?

or did I miss a meeting


----------



## Brainaddict (Nov 27, 2011)

I find it really sexy when a thread on an interesting political topic gets steamrollered by men waving their cocks at each other over the exact nuances of their insults/hastily writen posts. I'm going gay for you guys.

Meanwhile, I haven't been to St Paul's much lately. I hear there are less assembly meetings now due to lack of demand. Anyone know the story there?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2011)

Pathetic way to tell people off. There's two answers for the price of one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> I find it really sexy when a thread on an interesting political topic gets steamrollered by men waving their cocks at each other over the exact nuances of their insults/hastily writen posts. I'm going gay for you guys.


newsflash: it's not all about sex. well, it isn't all about sex for most people. sexualising everything tells us a lot more about you than perhaps you intend.



> Meanwhile, I haven't been to St Paul's much lately. I hear there are less assembly meetings now due to lack of demand. Anyone know the story there?


yes. in your absence they're probably more productive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2011)

smokedout said:


> surely all the people who've worked for microsoft or bought their products have enriched bill gates rather than the other way round?
> 
> or did I miss a meeting


yes


----------



## smokedout (Nov 27, 2011)

fuck


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2011)

smokedout said:


> fuck


(((smokedout)))


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 28, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> he didn't suggest it was a universal, he said hundreds of millions of people had been enriched by microsoft. by contrast you said 'how has bill gates "enriched" anyone apart from himself'. you misrepresented hannan. i suppose i have been 'enriched' by gates, to a degree, because it's pretty much a universal qualification for office-based jobs that you have a knowledge of microsoft products, and to some extent gates' products have played a part in my gaining and retaining work. i've lost a job in the past because i couldn't use a microsoft product, so there's a little bit of evidence that people ignorant of gates' products can be - at least temporarily - poorer.



What does the word "enriched" mean in this context? I haven't misrepresented anyone. You've imagined that.

You've fallen for the Louise Mensch line of "if you hate capitalism so much, why are you using a computer"?


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 28, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> He didn't suggest it was universal.


He didn't have to.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 28, 2011)

8ball said:


> I guess there's also the argument that if even if your life _has_ been enriched by the existence of Microsoft products, how much of that in total is really down to Bill Gates.


It also depends on what one means by the word "enrichment".


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 28, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> He didn't have to.


 
Whether he needed to or not, you said he did.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 28, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> It also depends on what one means by the word "enrichment".



In the article it gets used in both senses.


----------



## treelover (Nov 28, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovs0fpFgeqw&feature=youtu.be

Occupy Movement goes mainstream, Miley Cyrus video!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> What does the word "enriched" mean in this context? I haven't misrepresented anyone. You've imagined that.
> 
> You've fallen for the Louise Mensch line of "if you hate capitalism so much, why are you using a computer"?


it's got fuck all to do with this louise mensch bint

The simple fact of the matter is that many organisations which have used ms software have made money through their use of that software: they have been enriched in part because of bill gates


----------



## shaman75 (Nov 28, 2011)

> The Occupy London movement has agreed its first specific set of proposals about corporations, just over six weeks since it first set up camp outside St Paul's cathedral to campaign against the perceived excesses and injustices of the global financial system.
> 
> While the protest has gathered considerable publicity and expanded to three sites – as well as St Paul's, there are offshoot camps in Finsbury Square, further east, and inside a vacant office complex nearby owned by the Swiss bank USB – it has faced criticism about a lack of concrete demands. Agreeing these has proved a complicated process, as all decision are reached by consensus at mass meetings.
> The first policy statement on corporations calls for an end to tax havens and tax avoidance, more transparency over business lobbying, and legal reforms to make individual executives more liable for the consequences of their decisions.
> ...


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 29, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Whether he needed to or not, you said he did.



You're not making any sense. No change there then.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 29, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> it's got fuck all to do with this louise mensch bint



Actually, it does because Hannan is using exactly the same sophistry as Mensch but using subtly different language.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 29, 2011)

8ball said:


> In the article it gets used in both senses.



Would you care to explain how?


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 29, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> You're not making any sense. No change there then.


 
Says the man who reads whatever he wants into an article just so he can air his tiresome, cliched viewpoint.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 29, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Says the man who reads whatever he wants into an article just so he can air his tiresome, cliched viewpoint.



I thought nino was a burd.


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 29, 2011)

DrRingDing said:


> I thought nino was a burd.



I don't know, but he/she represents everything that puts people off 'the left,' the jumped up, self-righteous, humourless, pseudo-intellectual bore.


----------



## smokedout (Nov 29, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> I don't know, but he/she represents everything that puts people off 'the left,' the jumped up, self-righteous, humourless, pseudo-intellectual bore.



the lack of self awareness in this post is staggering


----------



## LLETSA (Nov 29, 2011)

smokedout said:


> the lack of self awareness in this post is staggering


 
Nobody asked you, you pie-in-the-sky cunt.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 29, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Would you care to explain how?



What?  It's hardly like the word 'enriched' is used loads of times in the article.

You are still talking about Hannan's article, right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Actually, it does because Hannan is using exactly the same sophistry as Mensch but using subtly different language.


No it has fuck all to do with her as I am not relying on either her (or hannan)


----------



## Barking_Mad (Nov 30, 2011)

UK Uncut enter Panton House supposed home of the "highest paid CEO in the UK".

Sky showing protesters kettled in small street outside building. One undercover copper let through police lines. Although Sky reporters said "They've been taken for questioning"

lolz


----------



## Barking_Mad (Nov 30, 2011)

Guy on Sky (part of UK Uncut) saying undercover cops were "ratted out".


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 30, 2011)

*Nice one UKuncut!*


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 30, 2011)

Tweet from @OccupyBritain - "BREAKING NEWS AT ST. PAUL'S Police numbers increasing at St. Paul's moving in closer to the camp! HAPPENING NOW AT ST. PAUL'S


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 30, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Tweet from @OccupyBritain - "BREAKING NEWS AT ST. PAUL'S Police numbers increasing at St. Paul's moving in closer to the camp! HAPPENING NOW AT ST. PAUL'S



Busy news day, are they hoping to break-up the camp without too much media attention?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 30, 2011)

Tactically in their favour.


----------



## claphamboy (Nov 30, 2011)

Aye.


----------



## sim667 (Nov 30, 2011)

My friends just posted that police are kettling people in panton street too..... don't know if thats new news or not?

Im assuming they were trying to get into the LSX....

Do you know if there are solicitors numbers available for demonstrators today? I might text them to her just incase.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 30, 2011)

Tweet from UKuncut - Panton House occupation is @*OccupyLSX *action,
#*UKUncut *have been giving out #*SolidariTEA.*​
Solidarity with all arrested.​


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 30, 2011)

sim667 said:


> My friends just posted that police are kettling people in panton street too..... don't know if thats new news or not?
> 
> Im assuming they were trying to get into the LSX....
> 
> Do you know if there are solicitors numbers available for demonstrators today? I might text them to her just incase.



GBClegal 07946541511

HJA 07659111192/Bindmans 02078334433


----------



## paolo (Nov 30, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> Busy news day, are they hoping to break-up the camp without too much media attention?



Eviction hearing isn't until December 19th.

It's possible the increased presence at St Paul's is to deter/control groups mobilising to support Panton House.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Nov 30, 2011)

Looking that way.


----------



## sim667 (Nov 30, 2011)

Mr.Bishie said:


> GBClegal 07946541511
> 
> HJA 07659111192/Bindmans 02078334433


thanks


----------



## Barking_Mad (Nov 30, 2011)

Protesters being loaded from the Kettle on to Brenton's Coaches. Scum.

Brenton's Coaches of Blackheath 

*Contact us on 020 8698 6834*


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 1, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Says the man who reads whatever he wants into an article just so he can air his tiresome, cliched viewpoint.


Pot-kettle-black, LLETSA, you humourless twat.


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 1, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> No it has fuck all to do with her as I am not relying on either her (or hannan)



Wriggle, wriggle...


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 1, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> I don't know, but he/she represents everything that puts people off 'the left,' the jumped up, self-righteous, humourless, pseudo-intellectual bore.



Whereas you're a tedious, humourless middle class workerist cunt. I'm willing to bet that while I was working in shitty factories, you were lording it at Oxbridge.


----------



## LLETSA (Dec 1, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Whereas you're a tedious, humourless middle class workerist cunt. I'm willing to bet that while I was working in shitty factories, you were lording it at Oxbridge.



Holiday job was it? Special pay rate for slumming pseudo-intellectuals?

Heh, the idea of me being at Oxbridge is actually quite amusing. Anyway I'm nowhere near old enough to be your contemporary. (Nino is the type of fifth-rate academic commonly found on the left who thinks that anybody who can take him to the cleaners in an argument can't be working class.)


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 1, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> Holiday job was it? Special pay rate for slumming pseudo-intellectuals?
> 
> Heh, the idea of me being at Oxbridge is actually quite amusing. Anyway I'm nowhere near old enough to be your contemporary. (Nino is the type of fifth-rate academic commonly found on the left who thinks that anybody who can take him to the cleaners in an argument can't be working class.)



Hardly. But I've got more working class credibility in my little finger than you have in your entire middle class body. Still living at home with mum are we? In that lovely £500,000 property that you call home?

I find this amusing as well as contradictory.


> Anyway I'm nowhere near old enough to be your contemporary.



How odd, you told me that you were in your early 20's when Thatcher was elected. You're a liar as well a tedious workerist.


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 1, 2011)

Rattled, LLETSA? You should be. You're a fraud.


----------



## love detective (Dec 1, 2011)

stop making a dick of yourself


----------



## TruXta (Dec 1, 2011)

Oh nino, the day you have to claim wc cred is the day it's apparent you have none.


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 1, 2011)

love detective said:


> stop making a dick of yourself



Jawohl, Herr Oberst! <clicks heels>


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Oh nino, the day you have to claim wc cred is the day it's apparent you have none.


Nonsense. You don't know anything about me and nor does LLETSA (though he pretends to).


----------



## LLETSA (Dec 1, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Rattled, LLETSA? You should be. You're a fraud.


 
Rattled? You're the one who follows me about.


----------



## love detective (Dec 1, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Jawohl, Herr Oberst! <clicks heels>



ok, continue making a dick of yourself then


----------



## TruXta (Dec 1, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Nonsense. You don't know anything about me and nor does LLETSA (though he pretends to).



No, and I didn't say I did. I tried to convey how pathetic it looks when you come out with crap like "I've got more working class cred in my little finger blah blah blah". You think being wc makes you special? That it gives you a privileged view on life?


----------



## LLETSA (Dec 1, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Nonsense. You don't know anything about me and nor does LLETSA (though he pretends to).


 
Once again Nino can't see the contradiction in everything he/she says.

Stick to hackneyed 'attacks' on 'the ruling class' and its minions via messageboard.


----------



## LLETSA (Dec 1, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> How odd, you told me that you were in your early 20's when Thatcher was elected. You're a liar as well a tedious workerist.



I was sixteen. It was the month I left school. You said you were in your twenties, if I recall correctly. Whatever, you're the one still having nightmares about the irrelevant old bat.


----------



## LLETSA (Dec 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> No, and I didn't say I did. I tried to convey how pathetic it looks when you come out with crap like "I've got more working class cred in my little finger blah blah blah". You think being wc makes you special? That it gives you a privileged view on life?


 
It does, actually.


----------



## LLETSA (Dec 1, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Hardly. But I've got more working class credibility in my little finger than you have in your entire middle class body. Still living at home with mum are we? In that lovely £500,000 property that you call home?


 
You sound like you need to be in a care home.


----------



## TruXta (Dec 1, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> It does, actually.



Does it fuck.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Dec 1, 2011)

It depends. It can and it can't. I also know that middle class people can have a privilege-skewed view on life.


----------



## bingiman (Dec 1, 2011)

Is this thread about occupy London or is it a competiton of ego's?

What I wanted to find out was, what does Urban 75 think about this?

St Paul's: We'll give sanctuary to protesters if violence breaks out
And then (in the same article)

Activist quits camp over 'serious health risks to life'
Alan Bennett's signed works vanish from camp
Evening Standard smear tactics go into overdrive    No suprises.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2011)

Potential overdoses and bad food hygiene. Something must be done.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2011)

So did anyone actually go on the march yesterday? Like the Occupy London banners? Or see any of the direct action at Panton Street? Get assualted by a manic-ninja-cop and thrown into a kettle for standing on the other side of a main road taking pictures of people with a banner on the roof of a building on Panton street? Spend an hour trying to reassure and negoiate on behalf of tourists that were assulated and kettled too? Held for 2 hours? Witness the abundance of undercover cops quietly winking their way out of the kettle, many of whom I have seen in the Bank of Ideas in the last 2 weeks? Let go, one by one, to walk a corridor of cops, videoed front, right, back, left, questioned and Section 60 searched?

I did. Photos later!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2011)

TopCat said:


> Potential overdoses and bad food hygiene. Something must be done.



What like writing fear mongering articles in the Evening Standard? 

Nothing pains me more than to get on a train or bus in the evening and witness almost everyone with their nose in the ES or the Metro....


----------



## IC3D (Dec 1, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> So did anyone actually go on the march yesterday? Like the Occupy London banners? Or see any of the direct action at Panton Street?
> 
> I did. Photos later!


The banners looked great! saw you and said hello. I always seem to meet people now who talk about David Ike after seeming normal for 10 or 15 minutes oh well they might be right they seem nice enough.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2011)

IC3D said:


> The banners looked great! saw you and said hello. I always seem to meet people now who talk about David Ike after seeming normal for 10 or 15 minutes oh well they might be right they seem nice enough.



We spoke yesterday? Which one were you? PM me please! 

I NEVER talk about David Ike, I know you probably are not referring to me but your post could be misunderstood! 

Also, see edit to the post you quoted...my day got better!


----------



## 8ball (Dec 2, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> I NEVER talk about David Ike, I know you probably are not referring to me but your post could be misunderstood!



Maybe you have a conspiraloon evil twin.


----------



## IC3D (Dec 2, 2011)

Just to clarity Rutita made no mention of lizard overlords or the mayan calendar in our brief chat, and sorry to hear about all the filth, I've seen some spotter cards somewhere, could be handy


----------



## Riera (Dec 2, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> You sound like you need to be in a care home.


Stop derailing the thread.


----------



## LLETSA (Dec 2, 2011)

Riera said:


> Stop derailing the thread.


 
Are you the referee?  Anyway it was yesterday. It's actually you doing the derailing now.


----------



## treelover (Dec 2, 2011)

Just been reported the University of Sheffield has banned, by court injunction, any protest or picket for the next year, this includes union strike pickets and any other type of political protest
there is an occupation happening there, pretty bad...


----------



## shaun balls (Dec 2, 2011)

treelover said:
			
		

> Just been reported the University of Sheffield has banned, by court injunction, any protest or picket for the next year


Isn't that what was tried on exactly a year ago, to the day? (a mix up?)


----------



## ddraig (Dec 3, 2011)

apols if this has been posted
good video
strike day following occupy LSX by jack chute


----------



## kenny g (Dec 3, 2011)

bingiman said:


> Is this thread about occupy London or is it a competiton of ego's?



It is the product of the ever dwindling ego ridden posters who frequent these parts but yes, it is about occupy London. There is not an essential contradiction between the two you know.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 3, 2011)

bingiman said:


> What I wanted to find out was, what does Urban 75 think about this?



Sorry to disappoint but Urban 75  is a bulletin board. Although it may have thoughts it is yet to share them with us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2011)

kenny g said:


> Sorry to disappoint but Urban 75  is a bulletin board. Although it may have thoughts it is yet to share them with us.


Top pedantry there


----------



## kenny g (Dec 3, 2011)

bingiman said:


> Evening Standard smear tactics go into overdrive  No suprises.



Why have you asked a question and then answered it? Do you want to pre-empt agreement?

Billionaire's free sheet in anti-activism shocker!

The evening standard is not a terrible paper but when the chips are down it knows which side it is on. And that is free parking in westminster after 6pm.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 3, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> Top pedantry there



Sssh. I was trying to hear what Urban 75 is thinking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2011)

kenny g said:


> Sssh. I was trying to hear what Urban 75 is thinking.


Pisspoor


----------



## claphamboy (Dec 3, 2011)

kenny g said:


> Why have you asked a question and then answered it? Do you want to pre-empt agreement?
> 
> *Billionaire's free sheet in anti-activism shocker!*
> 
> The evening standard is not a terrible paper but when the chips are down it knows which side it is on. And that is free parking in westminster after 6pm.



Yet the same Billionaire's other papers, The Independent and the 'i', are supportive, funny old world.


----------



## rekil (Dec 4, 2011)

Demo in Dublin yesterday. I could hear onlookers praising the floats. We need more horses at these things.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 4, 2011)

> Last night, Police issued a Notice to the Legal Team at OccupyLSX. It was to let us know that our Occupation is now listed as a potential act of TERRORISM, so could be dealt with under the Anti-Terrorism Act


----------



## claphamboy (Dec 4, 2011)

^^^ WTF?

Any link for that?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 4, 2011)

claphamboy said:


> ^^^ WTF?
> 
> Any link for that?


a mate passed on the info this morning... he was there when the cops told them...


----------



## ddraig (Dec 4, 2011)

that is bonkers
but they did the same to the wombles and rts, cunts

have to hit em back with humour like the Melbourne lot


----------



## Orang Utan (Dec 4, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> a mate passed on the info this morning... he was there when the cops told them...
> View attachment 15138


that's such blatant bullshit!


----------



## kenny g (Dec 4, 2011)

The only terror is in their shitty bulletin. Interesting that this appears to be the only domestic terrorist threat mentioned.

Can we assume that they have decided to stop doing their job i.e monitoring actual terrorist grouplets intent on bombing london. Far more convenient of course to sit back reading streams of activist material and working out potential mind games to play out through the media and via officers living the good life "undercover".

Potential users of empty buildings should not be the subject of an anti terror bulletin.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 4, 2011)

This is the sort of thing that "domestic extremism" is defined as now though, and has been for some time (note that it doesn't call it terrorism, though obviously it means to link the two).


----------



## ferrelhadley (Dec 4, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> a mate passed on the info this morning... he was there when the cops told them...
> View attachment 15138


"Intelligence suggest urban explorers are holding a discussion at the Sun Street squat. This may lead to an increase in urban exploration at abandoned or high profile sites in the capital."

Christ call out the SAS! Urban explorers?


----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2011)

copliker said:


> Demo in Dublin yesterday. I could hear onlookers praising the floats. We need more horses at these things.




That looks great, very imaginative


----------



## treelover (Dec 4, 2011)

more images here

http://www.demotix.com/news/953509/spectacle-defiance-and-hope-dublin


----------



## paolo (Dec 4, 2011)

ferrelhadley said:


> "Intelligence suggest urban explorers are holding a discussion at the Sun Street squat. This may lead to an increase in urban exploration at abandoned or high profile sites in the capital."
> 
> Christ call out the SAS! Urban explorers?




Amazing. I'm on a terrorism bulletin, albeit implicitly. Not sure whether to feel proud or just incredulous. If they're after me, Dad's Army would be enough.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2011)

paolo999 said:


> Amazing. I'm on a terrorism bulletin, albeit implicitly. Not sure whether to feel proud or just incredulous. If they're after me, Dad's Army would be enough.


I thought of you when I read it. Hope your happy and well?


----------



## paolo (Dec 4, 2011)

TopCat said:


> I thought of you when I read it. Hope your happy and well?



Currently tucked up in a warm campervan, surrounded by snow.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2011)

Cool.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> a mate passed on the info this morning... he was there when the cops told them...
> View attachment 15138


you don't need to rely on scappy bits of paper when you can get colp to email it to you each week: http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/CommunityPolicing/communityemailandsmsscheme.htm


----------



## smokedout (Dec 6, 2011)

copliker said:


> Demo in Dublin yesterday. I could hear onlookers praising the floats. We need more horses at these things.



and swords, horses and swords. that would up the ante.


----------



## shaman75 (Dec 6, 2011)

Thom Yorke, Massive Attack etc... Djing at a OccupyLSX Xmas party http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


----------



## ddraig (Dec 6, 2011)

sound is a bit pants but looks good
they should take the audio out of the mixer really


----------



## shaman75 (Dec 6, 2011)

Yeah.  Fail on the music streaming.  But some sort of downloadable content coming I think...

And it seems to have made the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16061977


----------



## paolo (Dec 7, 2011)

Pay what you like download coming, proceeds to occupy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/07/gig-radiohead-massive-attack-occupy-london-free-album


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Thom Yorke, Massive Attack etc... Djing at a OccupyLSX Xmas party http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx


No idea what it sounded like on the livestream but it was a great night at the bank.


----------



## cantsin (Dec 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> No idea what it sounded like on the livestream but it was a great night at the bank.



fair old line up that ! genuninely impressive to see this lot turning out for Occupy.....

and good to see Horse Meat Disco supporting via Soundcloud , never had them down as particularly political, but Occupy seems to be having that effect on people. HMD doing a night at a Occupy cld be amaze...

Very much hoping all this energy can be maintained through winter.


----------



## shaman75 (Dec 7, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> No idea what it sounded like on the livestream but it was a great night at the bank.



Just loads of distortion with the occasional overheard conversation.Pretty much what you'd expect from a laptop microphone (?) right i front of the speakers.

Images worked well though.  They just needed to stream from the line-out on the mixer really.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 7, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> Just loads of distortion with the occasional overheard conversation.Pretty much what you'd expect from a laptop microphone (?) right i front of the speakers.
> 
> Images worked well though. They just needed to stream from the line-out on the mixer really.


 
I shall give this feedback, thanks.


----------



## treelover (Dec 7, 2011)

Sadly there is a row brewing on its FB about who was invited, cries of elitism, favourites, etc...

mainly Anonomyous


----------



## ddraig (Dec 7, 2011)

bound to happen with something like that
can see the gripe and can also see that it would have to have been kept well quiet too
the top something % 
at least one of our posters made it into the catchment

recognised 1 or 2 faces on the livestream but not saying who and from where!
fair fucking play to them pulling that off there tho


----------



## shaman75 (Dec 8, 2011)

I found an invite in a group on FB. Today... never mind. 

It would appear the head of the Financial Services Authority has had an informative discussion with protesters this evening though.


----------



## rover07 (Dec 8, 2011)

Over in America there have been occupations of homes foreclosed on by the Banks.

http://occupyourhomes.org/blog/2011/dec/6/national-day-action-stop-and-reverse-foreclosures/

Are there plans to do the same here?

It would be a good time with all the publicity over empty homes. Channel 4 have a series on this week. 'The great British property scandal.'

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-great-british-property-scandal/articles/home/


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 8, 2011)

Bank Of Ideas were meant to be up in court yesterday, some kind of eviction hearing. Anyone know how it went?

Also, rumours flying around that St Pauls would pack up before the current eviction deadline, anyone more informed than I care to comment?


----------



## smokedout (Dec 8, 2011)

treelover said:


> Sadly there is a row brewing on its FB about who was invited, cries of elitism, favourites, etc...
> 
> mainly Anonomyous



no riff raff


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 8, 2011)

shaman75 said:


> I found an invite in a group on FB. Today... never mind.
> 
> It would appear the head of the Financial Services Authority has had an informative discussion with protesters this evening though.




This meeting is a very hot topic at the moment. There are real concerns about the agreements made on the logistics of this meeting. No livestreaming/video allowed, whether or not a full transcript of the minutes will be made available etc. and most importantly, how many people were involved in the decision to agree these terms.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Dec 9, 2011)

Was at the one in Exeter yesterday - was not impressed, tbh.  My biggest issue was having some twunt patronise me by saying "don't trust the mainstream media - go on the internet and read blogs, if you want the truth...".  Cunt.

That aside, it just really seemed a bit shambolic, imo.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 9, 2011)

meh to you


----------



## love detective (Dec 9, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> This meeting is a very hot topic at the moment. There are real concerns about the agreements made on the logistics of this meeting. No livestreaming/video allowed, whether or not a full transcript of the minutes will be made available etc. and most importantly, how many people were involved in the decision to agree these terms.



this is what democracy looks like


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Dec 9, 2011)

ddraig said:


> meh to you



But seriously, it was shit. I generally support the occupy movement, but if this was in anyway representative (a few hippies sat outside a cathedral with a load of drunks, all hating each other, hoping that one day capitalism will end ...) - well, what's the point? That's not going to get anyone anywhere.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 9, 2011)

I think Ocs might need a certain number to get beyond the 'shambolic' point outlined above. Theory in progress mind. Something to do with outnumbering the pissheads and stuff. I know I was getting flamed for this kind of talk at the start of the Occupations, but too many conversations with people at different Occupations outweigh such flaming. The fact that no drug/booze policies seem to be effective back this up.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Dec 9, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I think Ocs might need a certain number to get beyond the 'shambolic' point outlined above. Theory in progress mind. Something to do with outnumbering the pissheads and stuff. I know I was getting flamed for this kind of talk at the start of the Occupations, but too many conversations with people at different Occupations outweigh such flaming. The fact that no drug/booze policies seem to be effective back this up.



Exeter had a "no drink" policy - clearly not being enforced very well, as one of the alky types was drinking booze in the visitors tent  - fwiw.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 9, 2011)

why don't you join and enforce it then? ffs
how easy do you think that is to do?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 9, 2011)

Two things there Ddraig.

1) Telling some pisshead not to drink takes confidence and they could easily be aggressive shits who tell you to fuck off. i.e 'not necessarily very easy at all' to answer your question.

2)These are public spaces, although some say an 'occupied' space is different somehow I'll leave that debate for now. So people may well be able to do as they please making the Oc come over as 'authoritarian' which many occupiers would baulk at. If drinking is not allowed under bye law then you COULD tell plod or similar, but again that is not in the political DNA of many and could come back to haunt you as lots of local pissheads get it into their heads that you are 'grasses'


----------



## ddraig (Dec 9, 2011)

yea agreed
i thought of those obvious ones, ta for elaborating


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Dec 9, 2011)

Those alky types and pissheads hey 

They should be banned from all public spaces forever.

You twats.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 9, 2011)

If someone is drunk and annoying it is perfectly reasonable to remind them of the fact.

Demonising people isn't reasonable though.

I fully support occupations having no drinking policies.

Having non-enforced decisions that nasty people aren't allowed to be there because they are "pissheads" and then thinking that "no pisshead" policies will be effective are bullshit.


----------



## Stanley Edwards (Dec 10, 2011)

Hey!

Those 'alky types and pissheads' were occupying long before idiots started getting self-righteous on the net.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 10, 2011)

Stanley Edwards said:


> Those alky types and pissheads hey
> 
> They should be banned from all public spaces forever.
> 
> You twats.



Did someone say they should?

Isnt't putting up straw men the work of er...twats?


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 10, 2011)

The logic is that they should be - you know, recognise it before it manifests itself.


----------



## Jon-of-arc (Dec 10, 2011)

I dont think they should be banned, just makes me wonder what sort of movement is being built. One that a lot of people might struggle to engage with, I suspect.

As for joining exeter occupy, I live in berkshire...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 10, 2011)

ffs... i have well being procastraniting (sp)
for piss head lets use one of our street folk.....
if there any folk here involved with #camps msg me........


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 10, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> The logic is that they should be - you know, recognise it before it manifests itself.



Not sure what you are driving at entirely. Maybe it doesn't matter. I am interested to know good ideas you may have surrounding the handling of vulnerable, aggressive and drunk people by a movement which is principally open and inclusive while attempting to be attractive to as broad a spectrum of the public as possible.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 10, 2011)

> Are you ready for the second part of our Re-Thinking Human Rights Weekend? SUNDAY, 11th December at OccupyLondon (2:00pm-7:00pm, at Tent City University, St Paul's Cathedral).
> 
> What will a democratic global system look like? (2:00pm to 3:30pm)
> 
> ...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 12, 2011)

Welfare in the City – an update from Occupy London Stock Exchange

interesting update.. wordy and perhaps needs to focus on the 'issues' at hand rather than a 'pr battle'.... actions speak louder than words....



> Furthermore it must never be forgotten that the people that society (including those currently in charge of St Paul’s) labels “rejects”, the Occupy camp actively gives a chance to


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Dec 13, 2011)




----------



## xes (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm pleased that people are learning the song which he sings at 4:15, World Turned Upside Down (by Leon Rosselson, also sang it at Occupy LSX), it is the song of the movement


----------



## Marcusj83 (Dec 13, 2011)

Daniel Ashman is taking on the City Corporation of London in court starting on Friday, have a look at this interview, what a GUY!!! Good Luck DAN http://youtu.be/9jlNicwrND0


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 13, 2011)

Marcusj83 said:


> Daniel Ashman is taking on the City Corporation of London in court starting on Friday, have a look at this interview, what a GUY!!! Good Luck DAN http://youtu.be/9jlNicwrND0


Can't listen to the audio at work - what's the basis of the action?


----------



## Marcusj83 (Dec 13, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Can't listen to the audio at work - what's the basis of the action?


Dan is part of 3 parties taking on the City of London Corporation who are trying to evict the occupiers of St Pauls. He is a litigant and representing himself, therefore is liable to court costs if he loses, which could increase into many tens of thousands of pounds!


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 13, 2011)

Oh, he's a defendant, I see. I thought he was actually launching an action against them.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 14, 2011)

*Occupy Everywhere this Thursday #D15; Jesse Jackson to visit; an East London church shows how to Occupy Everywhere*





_*Occupy London releases schedule for Occupy Everywhere, including visit of Jesse Jackson to St Paul’s this Thursday at 3pm*_


*Launches new Occupy toolkit for communities around the UK; Invites you to get creative and get involved*


*Check out All Hallow’s Church in Bow, East London, who have a tent in their nativity scene, in support of the Occupy movement.*


----------



## shaman75 (Dec 16, 2011)

A video:


And some pictures from me: http://entoptika.co.uk/d15/


----------



## treelover (Dec 16, 2011)

can't make up my mind about Jesse Jackson, he sacrificed a lot to follow the path he has took, but some of his ideas seem to promote entrepreneurial capitalism...


----------



## OneStrike (Dec 16, 2011)

Hopefully this is a relevant rant, Mark talking about happiness.  He supports the occupations though they aren't central to this particular contribution.


----------



## Riklet (Dec 16, 2011)

He's a legend, seen a few of his others, but that 'un is good, really like the ending...


----------



## albionism (Dec 18, 2011)

Didn't realise that he was the nose push peanut bloke from
years ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFXEZFUKOL0&feature=player_embedded#!


----------



## treelover (Dec 18, 2011)

It seems Occupy Lsx may be picking up their tents and leaving, personally i think they did good, tens of thousands of people have passed through the camp, taking on ideas, etc..


----------



## ddraig (Dec 19, 2011)

only seen that from a couple of sources, bit weird not seeing it at least mentioned or discussed from other people/sites


----------



## OneStrike (Dec 19, 2011)

Front page of tomorrows independent apparently?  I do know the small Occupy Leicester have packed up and relocated today, to a city centre building.  The critics will scoff but i can't blame anyone for seeking shelter.


----------



## ddraig (Dec 19, 2011)

yeah here http://twitpic.com/7v4fqt
but still thought it'd be more widely mentioned if true


----------



## paolo (Dec 19, 2011)

treelover said:


> It seems Occupy Lsx may be picking up their tents and leaving



Any verification of this?


----------



## Corax (Dec 19, 2011)

R4 said it was being cleared today?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 19, 2011)

The OccupyLSX site and Twitter stream say there's been discussion of various options and offers, but no decision as yet, and none of the proposals is about "an end to the occupation" - there will still be plenty of people there. Even the actual text of the Indie's piece doesn't support the headline at all.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 20, 2011)

*Occupy London to put the one per cent on trial as it brings abandoned court back to life*

Posted on December 20, 2011  by  occupylsx

As Occupy London Stock Exchange occupation prepares to present its case at the High Court today, Occupy London supporters have liberated a disused court house – Old Street Magistrate’s Court – in London‘s East End alongside a group of military veterans, Occupy Veterans.
The opening of Occupy London’s fourth occupation, will see the movement conducting “trials of the one per cent” in the abandoned magistrate’s court building which has lain empty since 1996, despite its prime location and grade II listing.
More information about this abandoned magistrate’s court can be found at http://www.mpa.gov.uk/committees/mpa/2005/050224/10/.
To the one per cent – see you soon at Occupy Justice, formerly Old Street Magistrate’s Court, Old Street London EC1.


----------



## laptop (Dec 20, 2011)

>Old Street Magistrates' Court

Are the Met armed response unit still in the basement?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 21, 2011)

laptop said:


> >Old Street Magistrates' Court
> 
> Are the Met armed response unit still in the basement?



What is it,  'thaw when needed'?


----------



## treelover (Dec 21, 2011)

Phil Jupitus at Occupy Leeds, gone up in my estimation...

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...carols_with_occupy_leeds_protesters_1_4077145


----------



## IC3D (Dec 21, 2011)

There really isn't anything to slate occupy for and uncut IMO


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 21, 2011)

heres a cool night for youse tonight...
btw: #anon are hijacking nothing.. the tech group etc have already said its open doors for friends n supporters...


> * Anonymous UK are working on hijacking the gig at St Pauls tonight, featuring: Lowkey and Get cape wear cape fly. If we do we will be ensuring that it is run correctly and done to the very best of Anonymous standards. If any of you are coming down to the gig tonight, bring your mask and come help us out. Guaranteed front row seats as we will be the security for the bands
> *



*enjoy *


----------



## 8ball (Dec 21, 2011)

treelover said:


> Phil Jupitus at Occupy Leeds, gone up in my estimation...
> 
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...carols_with_occupy_leeds_protesters_1_4077145



Phil and Chumba.

It's nice when different people you like turn out to be mates.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 21, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> *'Anonymous UK are working on hijacking the gig at St Pauls tonight, featuring: Lowkey and Get cape wear cape fly. If we do we will be ensuring that it is run correctly and done to the very best of Anonymous standards. If any of you are coming down to the gig tonight, bring your mask and come help us out. Guaranteed front row seats as we will be the security for the bands '*


Where did you read that?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 21, 2011)

As opposed to imaginary "Anonymous" bollocks by wankers, apparently Old Street Magistrates' Court has been occupied now.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24023319-activists-take-over-fourth-london-site.do


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 21, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Where did you read that?



via mailing lists etc... why?


FridgeMagnet said:


> As opposed to imaginary "Anonymous" bollocks by wankers, apparently Old Street Magistrates' Court has been occupied now.
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24023319-activists-take-over-fourth-london-site.do


as posted previously a few days ago.. looks like they will get to the new year there.. tho any word from plymouth?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 21, 2011)

Ah, fair play, that was posted yesterday, it just got into the press today.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 21, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> via mailing lists etc... why?



Because it interests me  No drama...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 22, 2011)

Rutita1 said:


> Because it interests me  No drama...



we have had this chat before.. im just spreading confirmed stuff.... havent heard anything from the gig/event exept pissed up garbles... sounds it may be going well.....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 27, 2011)

Cracks me up everytime....One of my favourites and definately a re-post, who cares!


----------



## treelover (Jan 2, 2012)

Tim Piggot Smith reading 'A Christmas Carol' at OLSX

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ02_49Q2u0&feature=youtu.be

No media coverage for what is clearly a very televisual event..


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 3, 2012)

www.occupii.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2012)

laptop said:


> >Old Street Magistrates' Court
> 
> Are the Met armed response unit still in the basement?


no, they've been based on leman street for some time now


----------



## laptop (Jan 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> no, they've been based on leman street for some time now



Ta!

I'll just take a chair-leg for a walk down Hackney Road, then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2012)

laptop said:


> Ta!
> 
> I'll just take a chair-leg for a walk down Hackney Road, then?


that's so last century


----------



## TopCat (Jan 7, 2012)

Well I got it totally wrong in thinking all the Occupy lot were going to get brutally evicted before Christmas.


----------



## chazegee (Jan 8, 2012)

Went down there on Xmas day, good people, some bonkers alternative nun, drunk punks, all good.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 13, 2012)

Mild winter (so far!) must have gone down well 

Reading between the lines, Islington is going to let them be - and for the long-ish term:


> An Islington Council spokesman said: “We support the right to peaceful protest, but this has to be balanced with the needs of our community, which is among the most deprived in England.
> “The protesters have no permission to be in the square. At a time of huge Government cuts to our budget we are very reluctant to waste vital money on expensive legal action, but have not ruled it out.”


http://www.off-grid.net/2012/01/10/occupy-london-finsbury-square-to-be-long-term-eco-village/


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 14, 2012)

This Sunday: Occupy London celebrates life of Dr Martin Luther King – Occupy the Dream

This Sunday 15 January, on the birthday of Dr Martin Luther King, Occupy London will celebrate his life and legacy from 12.30pm – 4.30pm at its Occupy London Stock Exchange occupation, just by St Paul’s Cathedral. The event will also be streamed live via the OccupyLSX Livestream.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 18, 2012)

Surprised no-one's posted this, Court has ordered eviction of Occupy London, pending further appeal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2012/jan/18/occupy-london-london


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 18, 2012)

.. just to be clear, from the bank premises.


----------



## xes (Jan 18, 2012)

you sure, it keeps on about the tents outside St Pauls, and that they are going to have to go. They've got 7 days to appeal. Might be an idea to pack up a day before maybe, to show good faith. And then BLAM, the next wave (spring time?) can be much bigger. Although I believe that they should be allowed to stay and protest for aslong as they like, I just think it might be a good idea to re-group.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 18, 2012)

Yep, apologies. I was focused more on Fin Sq (which is experiencing a diff approach from Islington BC).


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 18, 2012)

*Occupy London protesters to appeal against eviction ruling*

City of London Corporation wins high court case to remove protest camp from St Paul's churchyard



> The ruling was greeted with dismay by Dr Giles Fraser, who resigned as canon chancellor of St Paul's rather than see the protesters evicted by force, and who was in a packed court 25 at the Royal Courts of Justice to hear the judgment.
> In a statement he said: "This judgment is disappointing. In a world where there is such a gap between rich and poor, the voice of protest needs continually to be heard. The church must not be seen to side with the 1% rather than the 99%."



so basically time to rally the troops innit?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 21, 2012)

Occupy London publicly repossesses Roman House in the City of London!

eta: bbc report

Therewas a press conference @ 11... havent heard owt yet


----------



## A Dashing Blade (Jan 21, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Occupy London publicly repossesses Roman House in the City of London!
> 
> eta: bbc report
> 
> Therewas a press conference @ 11... havent heard owt yet



They were gone by 17.00. Police went in at 18.00 to check. Building re-secured after they broke in.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 21, 2012)

Eviction from The Bank Of Ideas 30th, although they have been asked to pay the leccy bill and remove the Occupy sign, if they don't they need to leave by Monday.
LSX the 27th...but they are planning an appeal.
Occupy Justice have agreed to leave on the 23rd/24th.
Finsbury Square have no legal proceedings against them.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jan 26, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Eviction from The Bank Of Ideas 30th, although they have been asked to pay the leccy bill and remove the Occupy sign, if they don't they need to leave by Monday.
> LSX the 27th...but they are planning an appeal.
> Occupy Justice have agreed to leave on the 23rd/24th.
> Finsbury Square have no legal proceedings against them.


According to a friend of mine who was at Finsbury Square earlier, there has now been legal proceedings against them and they will be evicted on Friday. He will be going back there to observe what happens on Friday.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 30, 2012)

Bank of ideas being evicted NOW livestream


----------



## Col_Buendia (Jan 30, 2012)




----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 30, 2012)

A photographer called Jules Mattson has tweeted some scary stuff: "@julesmattsson All gone mental, bailiff punched me in the face and tried to run me over with car, then tries to run over 12 people #bankofideas" @julesmattsson We had his car stopped, police pushed us all away and helped him drive away after multiple assaults #bankofideas"​
The Bailiff is said to have been recognised by many as a regular on EDL demos. A fascist being paid to be a fascist functionary, paid to do what he enjoys. Lucky geezer.​


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jan 30, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A photographer called Jules Mattson has tweeted some scary stuff: "@julesmattsson All gone mental, bailiff punched me in the face and tried to run me over with car, then tries to run over 12 people #bankofideas" @julesmattsson We had his car stopped, police pushed us all away and helped him drive away after multiple assaults #bankofideas"​
> The Bailiff is said to have been recognised by many as a regular on EDL demos. A fascist being paid to be a fascist functionary, paid to do what he enjoys. Lucky geezer.​


That Jules Mattson is I think the son of the famous Paul Mattson  (I think I have his name right) also a photographer of things political. Jules himself got into an argument with the police at a public army parade last year or the year before. He aquitted himself well and made the police look silly in court, from memory. I hope he is alright and has pictures of the bailiff.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Jan 30, 2012)

RAW thumbs here - http://yfrog.com/z/20ovz4j

Hope everyone's ok!


----------



## sunnysidedown (Jan 30, 2012)

.


----------



## OneStrike (Jan 30, 2012)

According to Mattson the bailiff has now been arrested for assault and criminal damage, Mattson wants to press his own charge(cps allowing) and a civil claim against the firm.  Off twitter btw, i don't know him personally.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 30, 2012)

Bank of Ideas eviction, Occupy London protestors and media assaulted by bailiffs, Police fail to act and uphold duty of care

check Bank of ideas website....
tbh I did post a direct link to the article.. but in hindsight... its maybe not such a good thing to have the youtube vid above published here... Knowing some of the folk involved and criminal proceedings being engaged... perhaps best not to give the wankahs any wriggle room?


----------



## OneStrike (Jan 30, 2012)

Probably a bit late now, the video has been on the Guardian website all day, RT have shown it, its already out there for anyone with an interest.  The bailiffs firm have withdrawn their statement that he was acting in self defense, guess they'd rather lose an employee than a contract.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Jan 30, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> check Bank of ideas website....
> tbh I did post a direct link to the article.. but in hindsight... its maybe not such a good thing to have the youtube vid above published here...



I've removed the link but as mentioned above it has been on both Twitter and the Guardian website.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 30, 2012)

sunnysidedown said:


> I've removed the link but as mentioned above it has been on both Twitter and the Guardian website.


yup.. perhaps im erring too much on the side of caution... i have put a shout out that the vid is edited.. blurring faces etc....
just concerned..

btw: any more word from the london crews.. gone a bit quite today?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 2, 2012)

*2pm Saturday 4 February – Homeless people speak out at St Paul’s | Occupy the London Stock Exchange*


----------



## xes (Feb 22, 2012)

Occupy London have lost their appeal, according to the news which was on in the pub.

So, does that mean a fight to the bitter end, or are people going to pack up and go home peacefully?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 22, 2012)

Im hearing mixed reports.... some peaceniks are talking about spreading 'rose petals'  Though some are saying they will stay on...

A good point made earlier by an #occupy spokesperson was the fact that there are a number of 'vulnerable' people that will need support if the camp is cleared.... The City of London as yet havent given any timescale... If its a sneaky 4 a.m attack, the #occupy crew would not be able to engage 'professional' support services.....

Kinda ironic that the appeal* was lost on the same day as London is experiencing 'security practice drills' for the Olympics...

*they were denied the right of appeal as it goes... they didnt lose an appeal...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 22, 2012)

Tonight – 7pm Wednesday 22 February – Stay or go? General Assembly at OccupyLSX

Occupy London will hold a General Assembly focusing on the planned future of the Occupy London Stock Exchange occupation. This special GA will take place at 7pm tonight by the steps of St Paul’s and include speakers presenting each side of the argument, with the overall intention of making decisions regarding the future of the camp. As with all Occupy London’s General Assemblies, this GA will be open to press and members of the public.



> Occupy London's grounds for appeal were dismissed today. Here's a statement from John Cooper QC:
> 
> "“The five day trial and the hearing last week in front of one of the most influential courts in the country has firmly established Occupy as a leading and influential force in public debate. The legal proceedings recognised their integrity, determination and influence for good in modern Society.
> 
> ...


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 28, 2012)

Eviction going ahead now. Live on news24


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 28, 2012)

Edwin, fucking Edwin.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 28, 2012)

they are only evicting the tents


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 28, 2012)

Innit, they can only evict the tents.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 28, 2012)

Some cock called "Dave" on the BBC at the moment going on about how everybody will be sorry when their children are microchipped in ten years' time. They would of course pick the worst.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 28, 2012)

and by gawd do i want to reach through the TV and knock the head off dave and the BBC reporter


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 28, 2012)

He thinks the Catholic Church is a great institution, except that they don't have anything to do with this anyway. Did some random pisshead get in front of the camera?


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 28, 2012)

without wanting to call godwin's law


will someone give Dave a history lesson


----------



## lizzieloo (Feb 28, 2012)

They're wearing their tents

And there is a juggler to shoot.


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 28, 2012)

and a man swigging cheap cider


----------



## RaverDrew (Feb 28, 2012)

Ax^ said:


> without wanting to call godwin's law
> 
> 
> will someone give Dave a history lesson


 
 "You'll have your Nuremberg"


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

School of ideas being evicted now too?
any confirmations?


----------



## Ax^ (Feb 28, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> School of ideas being evicted now too?
> any confirmations?


 


twitter appears to say yes


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

shaky livestream up..... http://www.livestream.com/occupylsx

btw: Oakland, USA is being evicted as well


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

fair play to naffy.. she is speaking well


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

so much for a peaceful eviction......


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

*Occupy London*

‎"officially coming to an end?" no.....the media need to grasp that occupy is an idea, you can evict the camp....but it doesn't change people's views  if anything enforces them more, you lift up the corners of democracy and see the elements of facism beneath


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

all those tents and equipment.. just being chucked into a garbage truck... have they no shame... we asked that they would evict at a reasonable time so we could get professional services down to assist the vulnerable that #occupy housed, supported n fed... 
Welcome to olympicland...


----------



## peterkro (Feb 28, 2012)

Jesus Christ the beeb reporters and especially the idiot woman who's the anchor are slavering,reactionary bastards.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

There was also an eviction of an Occupy campaign site, which campaigners say is a legally occupied squat, at Featherstone Street in Islington, north London.....


----------



## bezzer (Feb 28, 2012)

round two...   x


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

Praying Christians who have come to show support being dragged off by the police.
http://yfrog.com/jtldkxz

If you witness any arrests, please take notes and speak to a legal observer or call GBC Legal - 07946 541511 be careful tho as police have cordoned off the area.....

Check this page for live updates on the eviction.
www.occupylondonsos.org

Arrests have been made......


*General Assembly to be held at Finsbury Square tomorrow at 1pm. Everyone welcome! GA's to be held in the future at St Paul's.*


----------



## peterkro (Feb 28, 2012)

School of ideas OK apparently.(on getting up it appears the papers are reporting they were evicted,they were tweeting last night it was wrong,who knows?)


----------



## audiotech (Feb 28, 2012)

Let's hope the naive "free hugs" for police stage is over now. The state doesn't like dissent. Once people get their heads around that important point then the protests can move onto more realistic assessments and activity. ​


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2012)

Video footage of the evictions:


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Some cock called "Dave" on the BBC at the moment going on about how everybody will be sorry when their children are microchipped in ten years' time. They would of course pick the worst.


 
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the children of the poor were, and I'm no tin foiler...


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Feb 28, 2012)

all solidarity to those who were evicted last night - and fairplay for their resistance. Total overrreaction again in terms of numbers of riot police and bailiff heavies. Steps of St Paul's evicted, even though the court order didn't cover the steps.

Also, unconfirmed reports on Twitter that BlackBerry messenger was down locally for about three hours between 12am and 3am - anyone else heard anything about this?


----------



## 8ball (Feb 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the children of the poor were, and I'm no tin foiler...


 
It's more likely to be the children of the rich, and the rich will pay handsomely for it.

The children of the poor will just have ankle tags loaded with Rf-activated explosives


----------



## quimcunx (Feb 28, 2012)

Finsbury sq looking fuller of tents than last time I passed.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Feb 28, 2012)

Nice to see St Pauls looking nice, clean and tidy, with commuters & office workers pleased that the 'eyesore' has been removed.....and replaced with massive fences all over the place blocking the square


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Feb 28, 2012)

20 arrests?


----------



## maldwyn (Feb 28, 2012)

How's the church going to get over authorising the cops to drag a group of praying christians from its cathedral steps, another massive PR fail.


----------



## 8ball (Feb 29, 2012)

Christians love being oppressed - it's an S&M religion.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 29, 2012)

8ball said:


> Christians love being oppressed - it's an S&M religion.


 
The Police missed a trick there. They could have set hungry lions on the protestors.


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 1, 2012)

Amazing twist in the St Paul's Occupy tale - occupiers cite King Charles' Royal Charter of 1638 decreeing that the land around St Paul's officially belongs to the people... and get a homeless man who's been living on the steps of St Paul's for ten years to claim this land as his own. And so the battle continues:


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 7, 2012)

Here are the new General Assembly times:

Tues 1pm – Finsbury Square – Finance GA

Tues 7pm – Finsbury Square – Working Group GA
... 
Fri 7pm – Meet at 5pm St Pauls Steps – Roving GA

Sat 2pm – St Pauls – GA

As always these are open to everyone to attend and participate in!


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## Kizmet (Mar 11, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Amazing twist in the St Paul's Occupy tale - occupiers cite King Charles' Royal Charter of 1638 decreeing that the land around St Paul's officially belongs to the people... and get a homeless man who's been living on the steps of St Paul's for ten years to claim this land as his own. And so the battle continues:




If it's who I think it is... he's a Scouser. Not content with hubcaps... they're nicking cathedrals too!


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 13, 2012)

Tomorrow Wednesday (14 March) as thousands of students take part in a national day of walk-outs, Occupy London will join the NUS, NCAFC, ULU and many others, in solidarity. 

Noon - Tent City University 'teach out' at Torrington Square just off Malet Street
Prior to joining the planned student march leaving Malet Street at 2pm, Occupy London's Tent City University - with its motto "anyone can teac...h, everyone can learn" - will hold a 'teach out' debate and discussion focusing on 'Higher Education: Where next? Where are we now?'. Starting at noon all are invited to join in - look out for the Occupy London banner at Torrington Square (just off Malet Street, by SOAS and Birbeck). 

With invited speakers David Graeber (Goldsmiths / Occupy Wall Street), Polly Toynbee (The Guardian), Ivette Hernandez (Institute of Education - focusing on Chilean student movement), Aaron Kiely (NUS Black Students' Campaign), Ragnhild Freng Dale (Occupy London/UCL), Bernard Stiegler (Golsdsmiths), and more, there will be breakout sessions to focus on specific questions, with feedback live-tweeted on @occupylondon.

"Since the first assemblies at Occupy London in October, we've stood strong in solidarity with students fighting against the commodification of knowledge that is happening to our education system under the guise of unnecessary austerity cuts," commented Arun Mistry, Occupy London supporter.

"Learning should be free for all and that opportunity should carry on throughout life. Instead, many young are finding themselves excluded from education through unfair cuts, which are not necessary if fairer taxation and control of the banks and restraints on tax evasion were put in place. Young people are being made to pay for the casino banking of the 1% and they are being made to pay by having their opportunities for a decent, safe, and engaging life taken away from them.

2012 promises to be a year of struggle for many people in Britain and around the world, with all these struggles are connected. The current system is unsustainable, unjust and undemocratic - the time to talk and initiate change is coming. Spring is coming and Occupy London welcomes your involvement in helping us all find those alternatives. News coming soon - get ready for Occupy May.

Further upcoming Occupy London events this week:
6pm Thursday 15 March - Sixth Free University discussion with Tent City University Working Group at Royal Festival Hall
7pm Friday 16 March - Roving General Assembly at a venue TBC in central London. See website and social media for details.
2pm Saturday 17 March - General Assembly by St Paul's focusing on the upcoming objectives of Occupy London


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## AKA pseudonym (Apr 20, 2012)

From 5pm - 10pm Sunday 22 April, Occupy London Finsbury Square invites all to celebrate as it marks the six month anniversary of the occupation.


----------



## ymu (Apr 24, 2012)

Good article in the Guardian:




> The emergence of an international protest movement without a coherent program is therefore not an accident: it reflects a deeper crisis, one without an obvious solution. The situation is like that of psychoanalysis, where the patient knows the answer (his symptoms sare such answers) but doesn't know to what they are answers, and the analyst has to formulate a question. Only through such a patient work a program will emerge.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...24/occupy-wall-street-what-is-to-be-done-next


----------



## ska invita (Apr 24, 2012)

ymu said:


> Good article in the Guardian:





> The emergence of an international protest movement without a coherent program is therefore not an accident: it reflects a deeper crisis, one without an obvious solution.


Except that Occupy Wall Street came up pretty quickly with a very clear program/set of 20 reformist demands that got posted on their website:

1. Complete bans on federal political contributions, replaced by public campaign financing.
2. Reversal of the “Citizens United v. FEC” Supreme Court decision.
3. Combating Washington’s “revolving door.”
4. Bans on gifts to federal officials.
5. Tax reform – eliminating special carve-outs and increasing progressiveness.
6. Single-payer health care.
7. Increased environmental regulation.
8. Reduction of the national debt through a progressive income tax and elimination of corporate handouts.
9. Federal job-training programs.
10. Student loan debt forgiveness.
11. Immigration policy, including amnesty for illegals.
12. Recalling the U.S. military globally.
13. Education mandates and teacher pay.
14. Massive expansion of public works projects.
15. Spurring China to end currency manipulation.
16. Reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.
17. Refinance all underwater mortgages at 1% interest rate.
18. One-year freeze on all foreclosures.
19. Free air time for all political candidates who gather sufficient signatures.
20. Immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

...which brought a much broader group of people on board than a Communist Manifesto would've. Its a popular movement (99% etc), and so populist reforms are a pretty natural way for it to go - especially so in the States.

The people who claim Occupy had no demands tend to be committed to trad-Marxist vanguardist options I find, and are deliberately trying to undermine horizontal movements ,and shepherd people back behind the old beards. (and usually often anti-reformist too, as its not revolutionary enuf). Definitely the traditional socialist groupings are not that happy about the lack of new converts arising from the amount of global protest/insurrectionary activity going on around the world...


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## ymu (Apr 24, 2012)

I have no idea what abstract boxes to fit people into before working out if it is permissible to sneer or cheer. Zizek always seemed OK to me. I dunno if you read the whole article, but he doesn't seem to be trying to do anything like that.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 24, 2012)

ymu said:


> I have no idea what abstract boxes to fit people into before working out if it is permissible to sneer or cheer. Zizek always seemed OK to me. I dunno if you read the whole article, but he doesn't seem to be trying to do anything like that.


the attacks against occupy strucutrelessness from certain people on the left are often hidden (not explicitly making the case for vanguardism), but not always. Im not sure if Zizek has ever come out explicitly in favour for a particular strategy, but he's pretty oldschool marxist from what little i know of him. The quote he kicks off with: ""They are asking us what is our program. We have no program. We are here to have a good time." is pretty insulting i think, and seems like deliberate spin and smear.

Nothing abstract about this, theres a battle going on out there between party vanguardists and the horizontal masses who are rejecting them en masse around the world, from northern africa to southern europe to wall street. Not 100% certain zizek is part of this, but it does look like it. What do you think he's getting at with that piece? What should occupy be doing/have done according to his analysis?

And im not sneering or cheering, im just saying its a misrepresentation of what happened. they had a program. I think it even got printed in the NYT on a full page ad (i forget now tbh - sieve brained). and the plan was to build a broad based horizontal movement outside of organised parties to rally behind the demands.

Occupy LSX had a series of demands too at different points


----------



## ymu (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't think he's sneering at anything - he's identifying the traps a broad-based movement can easily fall into, whilst cheering on that movement, as far as I can see. You could read it as a commie vanguardist trying to do a Clinton, I suppose.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 25, 2012)

I think so Ymu. What little cheering he is doing is for the fact there is visible protest and anti-capitalism, but in fact he sneers at occupy


> So we should see in this development also a challenge: it is not enough to reject the depoliticized expert rule as the most ruthless form of ideology; one should also begin to think seriously....


Occupy aren't being "serious", he's set them up as frivolous (anarchist) dreamers, there to "party"



> ...about what to propose instead of the predominant economic organization, to imagine and experiment with alternate forms of organization, to search for the germs of the New. Communism is not just or predominantly the carnival of the mass protest when the system is brought to a halt; Communism is also, above all, a new form of organization, discipline, hard work.


there's what he wants, Communism to spearhead the movement. Who will be doing the "discipline" and the "hard work" he quotes? A vanguard for sure.



> The protesters should beware not only of enemies, but also of false friends who pretend to support them, but are already working hard to dilute the protest.


dilute the process from serious communist organisation. Not interested in the 99% populism approach who "dilute", a smaller clique is needed


> We do not vote about who owns what, about relations in a factory, etc – all this is left to processes outside the sphere of the political.* It is illusory to expect that one can effectively change things by "extending" democracy into this sphere*, say, by organizing "democratic" banks under people's control.


This reads like a swipe at autonomism in workplaces, another enemy tendency of centrist Communism. 


> democratic mechanisms – which, one should never forget, are part of the state apparatuses of the "bourgeois" state that guarantees undisturbed functioning of the capitalist reproduction.


"Democratic mechanisms" like the general assemblies of Occupy.

You may or may not agree with what he is saying, but the point is what he is saying sounds like: Occupy = naive anarchist populism, should instead be being "serious" and calling for non-democratic dictatorship of the proles, or something like that.


----------



## ymu (Apr 25, 2012)

I don't read the article like that at all. I don't think he's suggesting that there are any ready-made solutions out there, he's saying that the movement shouldn't rush to adopt pre-existing templates under pressure of the empty criticisms of the media and the liberal left, and is broadly right in the way it has conducted itself so far.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 25, 2012)

tbh: hacks opinions more than bore me....

Whats happening now?


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## ska invita (Apr 26, 2012)

ymu said:


> I don't read the article like that at all. I don't think he's suggesting that there are any ready-made solutions out there, he's saying that the movement shouldn't rush to adopt pre-existing templates under pressure of the empty criticisms of the media and the liberal left, and is broadly right in the way it has conducted itself so far.


have to agree to disagree. I could well be wrong, usually am, but mark my words the hardened marxists hate all the horizontalism going on, . And as a rule all the frustrated marxists who end up as academics tend to be great at trying to slip their message in without being clear cut about it - its what they do for a living, often flying somewhat under the radar to keep their jobs safe. I cant stand crypto-chat - the fact that we have both taken different meanings from this shows he is being (i think deliberately) unclear.


AKA pseudonym said:


> tbh: hacks opinions more than bore me....
> Whats happening now?


yeah, but not a hack though, a highly influential celebrity 'intellectual', whose name alone carries weight - hence my bothering to refute it.

as to whats happening now, there's meant to be lots of activity through May around the world...12th and 15th key dates - see 2nd wave thread. How much will happen in London is far from certain.... Spain looks promising I hear.


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## Blagsta (Apr 26, 2012)

The lack of politics is/was a problem with occupy, as it let in fascists and fascist ideas.


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## butchersapron (Apr 26, 2012)

Wow, that is one hell of an extended misreading ska, you are way off track here.


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## AKA pseudonym (Apr 26, 2012)

*Morning - Occupy the tube!
*11.30am - Assemble at Paternoster Square for May Day march
*2.30pm onwards - Against Workfare
More details here: http://on.fb.me/Ign6x1


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## Brixton Hatter (Jun 14, 2012)

Finsbury Square was evicted last night about 2 or 3am. Lots of riot police and bailiff heavies.







There's some photos here: http://blog.julesmattsson.co.uk/2012/06/14/photos-occupy-finsbury-square-eviction/


----------



## nino_savatte (Jun 14, 2012)




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## claphamboy (Jun 14, 2012)

Sadly, it was bound to happen at some point, they have done well to last so long IMO.


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## gunneradt (Jun 14, 2012)

about time - the place was looking quite disgusting


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## ddraig (Jun 14, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> about time - the place was looking quite disgusting


 in what way?
you do know they had hygene ratings better than most long established bricks and mortar businesses don't you


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 14, 2012)

It was a very tidy site. 
Did you ever go there, gunneradt?


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## ddraig (Jun 14, 2012)

the twat will only come back with some crap like "riff raff"


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## gunneradt (Jun 14, 2012)

Walked past it every day.  I'm afraid all the mud wasn't very tidy.  It was always going to happen as the Olympics approached.


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## ddraig (Jun 14, 2012)

so a bit of mud??


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## Citizen66 (Jun 14, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> about time - the place was looking quite disgusting



For someone who doesn't like activists, you spend an incredible amount of time posting on a bulletin board some frequent.


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## gunneradt (Jun 14, 2012)

I never said I didn't like anyone.  I was just making an observation about the state of Finsbury Square - which can hopefully now be repaired.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 14, 2012)

Ok, change 'activists' to 'activism'.


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## gunneradt (Jun 14, 2012)

My point was the place had become an eyesore - it was bound to go.  I enjoyed looking at the books.


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## nino_savatte (Jun 14, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> My point was the place had become an eyesore - it was bound to go. I enjoyed looking at the books.


Tbh, you're a bit of an eyesore.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> I never said I didn't like anyone. I was just making an observation about the state of Finsbury Square - which can hopefully now be repaired.


yeh but it's needed something doing to it for bloody years. strange how just as the olympics approach they find the money


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## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Finsbury Square was evicted last night about 2 or 3am. Lots of riot police and bailiff heavies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you'd have thought the police could get some yellow bits that fit them, wouldn't you.


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## 8ball (Jun 14, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you'd have thought the police could get some yellow bits that fit them, wouldn't you.


 
I think maybe they did at the start, but there's a Dunkin' Donuts right by there.


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## AKA pseudonym (Jun 22, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> I never said I didn't like anyone. I was just making an observation about the state of Finsbury Square - which can hopefully now be repaired.


repaired how?


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## gunneradt (Jun 22, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> repaired how?


 
well they were starting on quite a clean up yesterday

hopefully laying some new grass and making it look a bit more like a square that everyone can enjoy again


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## butchersapron (Jun 22, 2012)

This is, of course, a long stand burning desire to allow public access to areas we own.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 22, 2012)

gunneradt said:


> hopefully laying some new grass and making it look a bit more like a square that everyone can enjoy again



_everyone?_

it's not a park, it's just a square that is slap bang in the heart of the financial district. Somewhere for the office bods to sit and have their sandwiches. I doubt anyone else makes a special journey to visit it. Perhaps errant tourists who have wandered the wrong direction from St Pauls might get to 'enjoy' it.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 24, 2012)

I was wondering when that went - I passed the site this afternoon. (Normally I don't come up that way.)

Tell you what, it looks a damned site worse now. "Beautification of the area" doesn't seem to have been the motive, amazingly enough.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2012)

All 16 defendents found not guilty today for #Xstrata case.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2012)

> Occupy London protesters will be appearing in court today (Weds) for their participation in a protest last year inside the Xstrata head quarters at Panton House, Haymarket, close to Trafalgar Square.
> The charges faced by protesters today relate to a demonstration held on November 30, 2011, in which dozens of people stormed the headquarters of the Anglo-Swiss mining company and dropped a banner from the roof.


 
http://www.blottr.com/breaking-news/occupy-protesters-court-over-xstrata-hq-demo


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/30/occupy-activists-xstrata-hq-london


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## kenny g (Aug 8, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.blottr.com/breaking-news/occupy-protesters-court-over-xstrata-hq-demo
> 
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/30/occupy-activists-xstrata-hq-london


 
Just a thought but were some peeps micro-dosing LSD during occupy london https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=23015 I could tell they were on something but couldn't work the fuck out.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Just a thought but were some peeps micro-dosing LSD during occupy london https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=23015 I could tell they were on something but couldn't work the fuck out.


 
Do you mean the people who kept going on about cities made of layers of allotments?

I think they were actually serious.

Great sax solo btw.


----------



## kenny g (Aug 8, 2012)

8ball said:


> Great sax solo btw.


 
Thank you, a million elevators can't be wrong. Back to the microdosing aspect, I am sure they were serious, just getting increasingly detached through ingestion of mini micro dots.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 9, 2012)

kenny g said:


> Just a thought but were some peeps micro-dosing LSD during occupy london https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=23015 I could tell they were on something but couldn't work the fuck out.


 
Erm, how would I know? 

You are asking me to speculate as to whether ANYONE used LSD whilst at OccupyLSX or OccupyLFS? No idea, maybe, it's possible etc...

Was there a specific post you meant me to read on that forum link?


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 9, 2012)

Wouldn't surprise me incredibly if some were, but I doubt it was very many. I've heard people talk about taking small quantities of acid to keep them sharp but not have them tripping, but it's never seemed particularly popular, though I may be behind the times here.


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## kenny g (Aug 9, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Erm, how would I know?
> 
> You are asking me to speculate as to whether ANYONE used LSD whilst at OccupyLSX or OccupyLFS? No idea, maybe, it's possible etc...
> 
> Was there a specific post you meant me to read on that forum link?


 
Fairy snuff. If you don't know then you don't know tigger. Just asking as I was passing.

The allotmentisation of the the city is pretty attractive though BUT my experience of allotments is that they can be run by little hitlers/ arseholes.


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## disco_dave_2000 (Aug 14, 2012)

Part of Boomtown Festival got 'occupied' at the weekend - all good fun but with some serious questions and answers from two guys from Occupy London - photos here >


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2012)

Remember the court house in Old Street?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 20, 2012)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 24, 2012)

*Squatters can occupy a part of society's architecture too*



> By co-operating with community and council to reopen Friern Barnet library, squatters are showing the good they can do
> 
> The Guardian speaks to the squatters and community volunteers campaigning to keep a local library open. Link to this video
> It is a creative partnership like no other. Squatters have occupied Friern Barnet library in north London and brokered a deal with the local community to reopen the building which shut down earlier in the year due to public sector cuts.
> ...


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...tters-occupy-society-barnet-library?fb=optOut


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 13, 2012)

> *Occupy London is one!*
> 
> October 12, 2012   Tags: anniversary, birthday, global, Globalnoise, St Paul's Cathedral. :London Stock Exchange
> Category: News, Newswire, Press, Press releases, Upcoming Action No Comments
> ...


http://occupylondon.org.uk/archives/17482


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 13, 2012)

Pics from today:

http://www.demotix.com/news/1520263/occupy-london-celebrate-their-one-year-anniversary#media-1520138


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2012)

Happening now!

*@OccupyLondon Occupy the cathedral ? #occupylsx #occupylondon http://bambuser.com/v/3061894*

Occupy the cathedral?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2012)

http://occupylondon.org.uk/archives/17512



> *Mic Check.*
> 
> We do not wish to distress you Only to appeal to you.
> Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-themselves-to-St-Pauls-Cathedral-pulpit.html


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 14, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/14/occupy-protest-st-pauls-pulpit-cathedral


----------



## maldwyn (Oct 14, 2012)

> The Very Reverend David Ison, dean of St Paul's, spoke immediately after the women to give his sermon, mildly joking that he now had a "captive audience".


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 15, 2012)

>


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 15, 2012)

Why didn't they chain themselves to the Stock Exchange since that was the original aim of Occupy last year? St. Pauls was originally just collateral damage but which turned out to be a soft target. Or is this just a split amongst Christians?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2012)

according to the evening standard one of the women who chained themselves to the pulpit once played a prostitute in an emma thompson film: obviously a wrongun then.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 15, 2012)

just had an old friend round with a box of Fawkes masks, and leaflets- apparently something is planned for the 5th November (again).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 15, 2012)

> !


----------



## xes (Oct 15, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> just had an old friend round with a box of Fawkes masks, and leaflets- apparently something is planned for the 5th November (again).


#Op Jubilee http://www.operationjubilee.in/


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 15, 2012)

Yeah and they've released this. http://occupylondon.org.uk/archives/17533

Occupy litle book of ideas. There's a preview bit, and after looking through the topics and chapters, and it seems pretty heavily focused on financial capitalism and fractional reserve banking, and pretty light on anything to do with class, capitalism-in-general and so on. There doesn't seem much by way of systematical coherent thinking, instead it's heaviled focused on finance, banking and the City of London as if it were just a conspiracy of Evil Financiers corrupting the system rather than the system itself being at fault. It looks a bit conspiracy theory-ish at first glance. Wasn't sure whether to link to to here or to the "Taking on the currency cranks" thread to be honest.

Gonna give a it a proper read tonight when I have some spare time, but first impressions aren't good.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 15, 2012)

i nodded noncommitedly and sought to change the subject


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 15, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yeah and they've released this. http://occupylondon.org.uk/archives/17533
> 
> Occupy litle book of ideas. There's a preview bit, and after looking through the topics and chapters, and it seems pretty heavily focused on financial capitalism and fractional reserve banking, and pretty light on anything to do with class, capitalism-in-general and so on. There doesn't seem much by way of systematical coherent thinking, instead it's heaviled focused on finance, banking and the City of London as if it were just a conspiracy of Evil Financiers corrupting the system rather than the system itself being at fault. It looks a bit conspiracy theory-ish at first glance. Wasn't sure whether to link to to here or to the "Taking on the currency cranks" thread to be honest.
> 
> Gonna give a it a proper read tonight when I have some spare time, but first impressions aren't good.


 
oh for fucks sake. this shit is fucking everywhere.


----------



## fluxed (Oct 15, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> lulz.. i thought that too.. I just lifted the 'statement' as verbatim....
> As it goes a few of them have appeared in the states as well as Ron Paul disciples
> ah well might make for some craic if the occupation drags on!!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 15, 2012)

http://issuu.com/occupylondon/docs/occupy_little_book_of_ideas/1


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 15, 2012)

Remember remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder, treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder, treason
Should ever be forgot...

Catholic terrorism!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2012)

> *New Putney Debates*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Events listed here:
http://thenewputneydebates.wordpress.com/programme/


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Oct 16, 2012)

This was the GA last night on the 1st Birthday of Occupylsx.....

Jaysus time flies! Happy birthday Guys


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2012)

> *Occupy was right – all the church could say was 'go home'*
> 
> When the protest began exactly one year ago, the Church of England should also have been angry about the financial crisis
> 
> ...


 

rest of article here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...eguardian/commentisfree/rss+(Comment+is+free)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2012)

*Capitalist Realism - Is there no Altrnative? - Mark Fisher*

http://libcom.org/files/Capitalist Realism_ Is There No Alternat - Mark Fisher.pdf


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 19, 2012)

> _ Collective Action analyses the experience and draws lessons from the Occupy movement almost a year after the establishment of the first Occupy camps in the UK._
> *Introduction*
> The global Occupy movement (often referred to as #Occupy) has been popularly presented as the beginnings of an organised, popular resistance to austerity. Although all but dissolved in organisational terms in the UK, the rhetoric of the “99%” still retains strong resonance within both corporate and social media as representative of the conditions of proletarianised workers, students and sections of the middle strata faced with the increasingly brutal logics of capitalist accumulation and the social disparity between themselves and the “1%” (more controversially largely represented as the CEOs and big financial firms continuing to benefit from the crisis). While for our counterparts in the US, Occupy still appears to have some mobilising potential, in spite of continuing contradictions of the organisational model (at least that is our perception as outsiders), in the UK Occupy was a largely geographically and temporally fixed phenomenon – being largely represented in a few cities over a time-scale of approximately late 2011 to early 2012.
> In spite of this, the experience of Occupy UK illustrates a number of critical concerns for British anti-capitalists. Strategic conclusions can be drawn from analysis of the camps themselves, there are questions left open by the general lack of a sustained anarchist presence (and the subsequent drift of already quite politically plural camps into wholly liberal reformist positions) or whether it is possible to “camp” popular opposition to austerity (all of which are addressed below). Occupy UK, or to put it more concretely the failure to actualise of the popular anti-austerity movement that Occupy UK was premised upon, also raises a broader concern for us – what, if any, will the shape of popular resistance to capitalism take in the UK in the 21st Century? Occupy UK indicates a two-fold failure in this respect – failure to mobilise a popular movement around anti-austerity positions (and win a broader public debate concerning austerity) by Occupy itself and a failure of anti-capitalist intervention to expunge anti-austerity positions of the illusions of liberal reformism or to offer meaningful analysis and orientation of the barriers experienced in building that movement (in terms of a class-based approach to social change).


 


http://libcom.org/blog/obituary-movement-yet-be-occupy-uk-one-year-19102012


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2012)

http://bp-or-not-bp.org/news/much-ado-about-bp-sponsorship-as-west-end-play-hit-by-protest/


> Tonight, members of the Reclaim Shakespeare Company jumped on stage at the Noël Coward theatre to deliver another surprise anti-BP performance. Just before the second half of a BP-sponsored Royal Shakespeare Company (RSC) performance of Much Ado About Nothing was due to begin, the three actor-vists performed a short Shakespeare-inspired piece. They challenged the RSC over its decision to accept sponsorship from BP in the wake of the Deepwater Horizon drilling disaster, the company’s decision to start extracting highly polluting and destructive tar sands oil in Canada, and its enormous contribution towards climate change. Yesterday it was announced that BP has entered a partnership with Russian state-owned oil company Rosneft in order to exploit the hazardous and vulnerable Arctic.
> 
> This was the eighth intervention by the Reclaim Shakespeare Company, the most recent taking place at Stratford-upon-Avon last month. In the two-minute sketch, ‘BP’, sporting a huge logo as a ruff, sidles up to ‘RSC’, and offers ‘a thousand ducats’ for her help in ‘seeming virtuous’ . They shake hands on the deal as ‘BP’ proclaims ‘By your reputation, I shall mine own mend’. ‘RSC’ eventually recognises the error of her ways, bellowing ‘I want not your dirty ducats’ and asking ‘Did’st not Formula One live on without tobacco sponsorship?’ before ripping the BP logo from her chest. The audience responded with laughter and applause, and one RSC actor applauded and offered her support afterwards. The full script can be found below.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2012)

> *Bank of England official: Occupy Movement right about global recession*
> 
> Andrew Haldane said protestors were correct to focus on inequality as the chief reason for 2008 economic crash
> 
> ...


 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201...d-occupy-movement?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038


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## smokedout (Oct 29, 2012)

> Haldane said Occupy's voice had been "loud and persuasive" and that "policymakers have listened and are acting in ways which will close those fault-lines" with a "reformation of finance that Occupy has helped stir".


 
well done Occupy, the saviours of western capitalism!


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## laptop (Oct 30, 2012)

Still trying to work out what Haldane's (or the Bank's) motivation for accepting that invitation - for giving the talk *there* - might be.

He could have said the same in Basel or Mansion House or Chatham House and it'd just have been policy musings...

Within the bankers' own world, it does rather seem to be sending the message "Earth to banks: we're not accepting (all) your excuses any more".


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## laptop (Oct 30, 2012)

dp. Ooops.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2012)

laptop said:


> Still trying to work out what Haldane's (or the Bank's) motivation for accepting that invitation - for giving the talk *there* - might be.
> 
> He could have said the same in Basel or Mansion House or Chatham House and it'd just have been policy musings...
> 
> Within the bankers' own world, it does rather seem to be sending the message "Earth to banks: we're not accepting (all) your excuses any more".


 
At worst he's being indisengenuous....spinning it in favour of the BOE, postive press style. There's an aire of condescention too,_ 'Yes, you guys are intecllectually and morally right, now run along and leave us to sort it out'_.

The speech/publication must have been given the go ahead by the BoE too. 

The words are not enough, action, evidence is needed!


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## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201...d-occupy-movement?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038


Of all the thing to concentrate on!

How about his acknowledgement that the banks are subsidised by 10s of billion a year if people are after making an easy bank related polemical point:



> All in, this support to the financial sector amounted to perhaps as much as two-thirds of annual GDP in the UK and US, somewhat less (but still rising) in the euro-area. Those government transfers were not shared equally even across the financial sector, with a strong skew towards institutions deemed too-big-to-fail. This protected species status meant large institutions benefitted – indeed, continue to benefit - from an implicit
> subsidy from the state.
> 
> This subsidy is big. For the global banking system, it may currently amount to as much as several hundreds of billions of dollars each year. By comparison, that is multiples of the global aid budget. For UK banks, the subsidy amounts to tens of billions of pound each year. That too is multiples of the overseas development budget. These are extraordinarily large, and peculiarly-directed, government transfers to one sector.


 
Full thing here (pdf)


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 30, 2012)

> *Last night, as part of the New Putney Debates, senior Bank official Andy Haldane said Occupy is "right" about the economic crisis. What kind of friend is he?*
> 
> 
> Fitting, that we met last night in the main hall of the Friends' Meeting House, Euston. After all, it was Quakers that founded the largest and oldest banks in Britain, Lloyds and Barclays, and would have rallied behind a talk on ‘socially useful banking’ that might re-awaken in those institutions the principles of the founding fathers. Who were ‘we’? A motley crew of five hundred or so citizens, activists, financiers, small businesswomen and men, environmentalists, and many of a title that has proliferated in the last four years: that of the 'amateur economist.'  This was the third New Putney Debate, part of a series of public debates organised by Occupy London and running over the next two weeks.
> ...


 
More here:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/niki-seth-smith/occupy-and-its-ally-in-bank-of-england


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## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2012)

Putney debates? And now we're approvingly quoting the opponents of Colonel Rainsborough, the opponents of the levellers?


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2012)

A selection of responses to Haldane's speech:



> *Occupy Economics Debate – Occupiers Respond*
> 
> November 1, 2012   Category: An Occupier's Perspective, News No Comments
> 
> ...


 
More here:
http://occupylondon.org.uk/archives/17800


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2012)

> *In search of big beasts to change banking*
> 
> This week a Bank of England official had words of support for the Occupy movement, but more powerful allies are needed


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/02/big-beasts-change-banking?fb=optOut


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2012)

> *Why I'm occupying a gas-fired power station chimney*
> 
> It's pretty scary hanging inside a chimney, but this EDF plant is one of the first in a new dash for gas that has to be stopped


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/29/why-occupying-gas-fired-power-station?fb=optOut


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 5, 2012)

> Alan Moore, the comic book author whose V for Vendetta mask has become a global symbol for Occupy protesters, has recorded his first-ever record for the UK arm of the movement and released it through Occupation Records. Listen to the song and watch a montage of video clips of Occupy protesters


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/nov/05/alan-moore-decline-english-murder-video?fb=optOut


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 6, 2012)

> *Life Imitating Art on Bonfire Night Outside Parliament*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://occupynewsnetwork.co.uk/life-imitating-art-on-bonfire-night-outside-parliament/


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 6, 2012)

> *Occupy London* ‏@*OccupyLondon*
> Wed 14 Nov: Author Will Self to visit occupied Friern Barnet Libarry http://bit.ly/TuuNjM  #*occupy*


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2012)

> Putney Debates: Saturday 10 November
> Venue: Oasis Centre, 75 Westminster Bridge Road, SE1 7HS
> 11-12.30pm - Food and democracy
> 
> ...


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2012)

> *New Lord Mayor of London's question for Occupy: Did you have to make such a mess?*
> 
> Roger Gifford warns would-be campers off at 800-year old swearing-in ceremony
> The new Lord Mayor of London has risked reheating last year's Occupy row by describing the St Paul’s camp as “dreadful” - accusing protesters of allowing the site to become a rat-infested obstruction to local business.
> ...


Rest of article here.

I wonder what this ex oil exec thinks about, oh I don't know erm....the mess caused by fracking, deforestation and other examples of capitalism negatively changing the environment/having a negative impact on others? 

One rule for them...as ever!


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2012)

> #*OccupyLondon* protest. Lord Mayor’s Banquet 5-7pm, tonight Guildhall, Gresham St London EC2. INFO: http://bit.ly/SG8FUX  #*occupy* #*UKuncut*


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2012)

> We are the greedy 1%" bankers to serve the PIIGS austerity soup at The Lord Mayors Banquet #plebspiggs #N14 pic.twitter.com/BV6eMIF8


 


> #*PIIGSandPlebs* Banquet v Lord Mayor's Banquet, Guildhall, City of London via @*alburyj* #*14n* #*14n*... - LIVE at http://bambuser.com/v/3140417


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 16, 2012)




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## Treacle Toes (Nov 17, 2012)

> *Alan Moore on Occupy, V For Vendetta And The Trouble With The 60s*


 
http://www.nme.com/blog/index.php?b...book&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=numberone


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 22, 2012)

> *The guerrilla library: As cuts close 8 libraries per month, we visit one that rose again*
> 
> Walk into Friern Barnet Library in North London and you would think you were standing in a model public library.
> More than 1,000 fiction, non-fiction and children’s titles are stacked neatly on shelves.
> ...


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/friern-barnet-library-as-cuts-close-1434695


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 22, 2012)

> *Gaza DEMO: St Paul's, US Ambassador 11am TODAY
> DEMO: St Paul's, THIS Thurs 11am TODAY
> 
> US AMBASSADOR Louis B. Susman St Paul's Cathedral
> ...


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 29, 2012)

> *Occupy London* ‏@*OccupyLondon*
> Discover the true story of the financial crisis in TODAY's tour of Canary Wharf. 6pm outside Canary Wharf tube. http://www.occupytours.org


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 30, 2012)

> In this interview one year into the Occupy movement I discuss with Michael Albert issues around organising for a better society, strategy, people and politics.
> 
> Michael Albert is an American activist, economist, speaker, and writer.
> 
> During the 1960s, he was a member of Students for a Democratic Society, and was active in the anti-Vietnam War movement. He is co-editor of ZNet, and co-editor and co-founder of Z Magazine. He also co-founded South End Press and has written numerous books and articles.


 
http://www.mixcloud.com/markweaver5015/occupy-strategy-interview-with-michael-albert/


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2012)




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## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2012)

> *Save Leyton Marsh protester threatened with £335,000 eviction costs - video*


 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2012/dec/21/save-leyton-marsh-protester-eviction-costs-video


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## butchersapron (Jan 23, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> A few points which i don't expect to go down very well.
> 
> The last time there were substantial assemblyist movements were in Spain and Portugal in the 70s and 80s on the docks and in the factories. They were enterprise based rather than territorial (you could attend the assembly and put your points but only workers could vote). What kept them going, what made them live was small victories - a boss moved off a line, a compulsory hours overtime removed, a sacked mate re-instated. These small victories and the way they were organised became the default setting, they became the workers common sense, how people thought. The threat of an assembly became enough to get things done. What price some small victories now? Well, there are people whose homes are being repossessed right now, auctions of their possessions taking place right now. It's an open door - the chance to get mobile and build up real networks based in practice (no need for everyone to go) and kick past the process/content stuff that's starting to creep in. I know we're not supposed to have any demands, but lets have some results eh?


Small victories: Direct Action Against Foreclosure



> While politicians proclaim the foreclosure crisis over, distressed homeowners around the country tell a different story. In Portland, they're taking action, in a union-initiated effort that brings together neighbors, labor, and Occupy activists.  As organizer Angela MacWhinnie lays out, militant direct action to keep people in their houses has proved the most successful way to fight foreclosure. She details the contours and challenges of their campaign, which has involved facing off dozens of riot police.


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