# Pakistani sex gangs in Yorkshire and the E, E, EDL.



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

Anyone else see this?
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od

It's about the problem (in Yorkshire in particular) with grooming and sexual exploitation of young girls by gangs of men. The men come from all racial groups but there is a really disproportionate number from the Pakistani community, and the girls are usually white working class girls.

The second half of the programme is particularly good cos it focusses on talking to the Pakistani community about why this is going on. About the problems of an over sexualised society and how that interacts with a community that outwardly disapproves of sex outside marriage, how arranged marriages feed into it (where often there are big cultural differences in brides from abroad and their British born husbands, sometimes even as basic as language problems). And there's a really articulate youth worker from Keighley talking about why Pakistani girls aren't targeted as much. The reason? Cos the community would come down on the men like a ton of fuckin bricks.

Which is where the EDL come in and find the niche. Cos they aren't scared in using this to stir up a LOT of racist bollocks in towns up here saying they are protecting white girls. Saying they will speak up about it. I think it's pretty clear that *everyone* should be speaking up about it and not leaving it to the far right eh?


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 10, 2011)

especially given the prevalence of sex pests and nonces amongst far right ranks, from them it comes off as jealousy.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> especially given the prevalence of sex pests and nonces amongst far right ranks, from them it comes off as jealousy.


It really doesn't.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Don't know anything about the doc, but this isn't new news. I remember reading/hearing about it a few years ago.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> especially given the prevalence of sex pests and nonces amongst far right ranks, from them it comes off as jealousy.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> It really doesn't.



It does come across as a bit of possessiveness though. Men, saying hoi you can't do that to _our women. _Chattels.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Don't know anything about the doc, but this isn't new news. I remember reading/hearing about it a few years ago.


No it's not new news. That's whats so frustrating. That the organisations such as Child Exploitation and Online Protection won't come out and go, yer this is a problem particularly with the Pakistani men for fear of being called racist. It's crazy.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

weepiper said:


> It does come across as a bit of possessiveness though. Men, saying hoi you can't do that to our women.


Which is exactly what they fucking SHOULD be saying, and why Pakistani girls aren't targeted as much


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> Which is exactly what they fucking SHOULD be saying, and why Pakistani girls aren't targeted as much


Um, no. Not to me, anyway. The Pakistani men are totally out of order and fucked up. But that doesn't mean it's ok for white men, or other men, to act in the same way.


----------



## rover07 (Nov 10, 2011)

Have a quick read through this thread, Edie. 

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-britain-see-white-girls-as-easy-meat.266988/


----------



## Geri (Nov 10, 2011)

Does it only happen in Yorkshire?


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

Geri said:


> Does it only happen in Yorkshire?


I very much doubt it, but Yorkshire has a very large Pakistani community in nearly all towns. So it's more prevalent.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Surely the race of the girls being exploited is irrelevant to how we, the rest of us, should react to it.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

rover07 said:


> Have a quick read through this thread, Edie.
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-britain-see-white-girls-as-easy-meat.266988/


Ah, yer, 83 pages  Think I must have been on an urban holiday during that one. See pk is arguing my point on that one tbh although I've only read the first few pages.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> Which is exactly what they fucking SHOULD be saying, and why Pakistani girls aren't targeted as much



Why aren't the women saying it? I mean I know _you_ are, but why do we have to wait for the good men to collectively save us from the bad men?


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

weepiper said:


> Why aren't the women saying it? I mean I know _you_ are, but why do we have to wait for the good men to collectively save us from the bad men?


I see your point.

I was more getting at the fact that the Pakistani community is a tight community, people know each other and this is why this shit isn't tolerated. I wish the white community was more like that, but not in the edl way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> I was more getting at the fact that the Pakistani community is a tight community, people know each other and this is why this shit isn't tolerated


if that's the case how come this shit is very much tolerated within the pakistani community, given what you've said earlier in the thread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> I very much doubt it, but Yorkshire has a very large Pakistani community in nearly all towns. So it's more prevalent.


and i suppose you're going to argue that it's more prevalent in towns with large pakistani communities on the basis that this shit isn't tolerated by pakistani communities.

it really isn't much of a fucking argument, is it?


----------



## weepiper (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> I see your point.
> 
> I was more getting at the fact that the Pakistani community is a tight community, people know each other and this is why this shit isn't tolerated. I wish the white community was more like that, but not in the edl way.



I wish it didn't have to be 'the Pakistani community' and 'the white community'. i'd rather it was just 'the community' and everyone stopped being cunts to each other. While we're wishing, I'll have a pony.


----------



## rover07 (Nov 10, 2011)

A quick summary is that over the past 18 years there has been an average of 3 muslim men per year convicted of being involved in gang rape.

Thats nationally not just Yorkshire. Muslims no more likely to be sex offenders than any other religion.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if that's the case how come this shit is very much tolerated within the pakistani community, given what you've said earlier in the thread?


It isn't tolerated within the Pakistani community. Sorry I'm not making myself clear. The Pakistani community are fuckin rightly horrified about it, and speaking out about it more then the white community. I meant Pakistani girls aren't targeted AS MUCH as white girls cos the community would protect their own. And cos of the views of the fucked up minority of Muslims that see white girls as slags.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

rover07 said:


> A quick summary is that over the past 18 years there has been an average of 3 muslim men per year charged with being involved a in gang rape.
> 
> Thats nationally not just Yorkshire. Muslims no more likely to be sex offenders than any other religion.


Did you watch the programme?


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

weepiper said:


> I wish it didn't have to be 'the Pakistani community' and 'the white community'. i'd rather it was just 'the community' and everyone stopped being cunts to each other. While we're wishing, I'll have a pony.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> It isn't tolerated within the Pakistani community. Sorry I'm not making myself clear. The Pakistani community are fuckin rightly horrified about it, and speaking out about it more then the white community. I meant Pakistani girls aren't targeted AS MUCH as white girls cos the community would protect their own. And cos of the views of the fucked up minority of Muslims that see white girls as slags.


so what you seem to be saying is that abuse of 'the other' is more accepted in these communities


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> so what you seem to be saying is that abuse of 'the other' is more accepted in these communities


No. That is not what edie is saying at all.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> so what you seem to be saying is that abuse of 'the other' is more accepted in these communities


No


----------



## Deareg (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> It isn't tolerated within the Pakistani community. Sorry I'm not making myself clear. The Pakistani community are fuckin rightly horrified about it, and speaking out about it more then the white community. I meant Pakistani girls aren't targeted AS MUCH as white girls cos the community would protect their own. And cos of the views of the fucked up minority of Muslims that see white girls as slags.


Is this true though? when I was a kid a lot of white people believed that mugging was a crime that was largely committed by black youths also that they never mugged other black people, that would be laughed at today.


----------



## rover07 (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> Did you watch the programme?



No, that was a summary of the 83 page thread.


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Is this true though? when I was a kid a lot of white people believed that mugging was a crime that was largely committed by black youths also that they never mugged other black people, that would be laughed at today.


You're doubting this is a problem at all? Cos no one else seems to be. Why won't you accept the evidence? Cos you think it's racist to?


----------



## Edie (Nov 10, 2011)

rover07 said:


> No, that was a summary of the 83 page thread.


Oh sorry  Well the evidence presented by that programme seems to leave little doubt as to the nature or existence of the problem.


----------



## Deareg (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> You're doubting this is a problem at all? Cos no one else seems to be. Why won't you accept the evidence? Cos you think it's racist to?


I didn't see the programme so I am not doubting anything, Just asking how they can be sure that if it is true, how do they know for sure that they are not also targeting Pakistani girls?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> You're doubting this is a problem at all? Cos no one else seems to be. Why won't you accept the evidence? Cos you think it's racist to?



Well, what's the evidence? I didn't read the 83-pager, so it might be hidden within the bowels of that beast.

Edit - saw rover's summary above. That accurate peeps?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

> And cos of the views of the fucked up minority of Muslims that see white girls as slags.


This bit is hardly surprising, tbh. If you are brought up in a culture in which women and girls are expected to be modest and not to display sexuality in public, it isn't too surprising if some of the men in that culture see women who do display sexuality in public in the way they dress as women who are less than godly.

Any woman who's been on holiday to Tunisia, say, knows that many men there think a woman displaying flesh in public is fair game for a grope. 

Not excusing it at all, but it's all too believable.


----------



## rover07 (Nov 10, 2011)

Edie said:


> Oh sorry  Well the evidence presented by that programme seems to leave little doubt as to the nature or existence of the problem.



What problem? 

Prostitution? Rape? 

Or muslim men with white girlfriends?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This bit is hardly surprising, tbh. If you are brought up in a culture in which women and girls are expected to be modest and not to display sexuality in public, it isn't too surprising if some of the men in that culture see women who do display sexuality in public in the way they dress as women who are less than godly.
> 
> Any woman who's been on holiday to Tunisia, say, knows that many men there think a woman displaying flesh in public is fair game for a grope.
> 
> Not excusing it at all, but it's all too believable.



Groping's a problem in cultures where women don't dress provocatively as well. India.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Groping's a problem in cultures where women don't dress provocatively as well. India.


My point being, though, that Tunisian men don't grope Tunisian women who are covered up. They only grope tourists who aren't covered up.

It's a rather simple example of how repression leads to exaggerated titillation by ever more 'minor' things. A man who rarely sees any bare flesh at all may be extremely excited by the sight of a bare shoulder, say. Sad and pathetic, but true. Victorian men in Britain used to get excited by the sight of an ankle ffs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This bit is hardly surprising, tbh. If you are brought up in a culture in which women and girls are expected to be modest and not to display sexuality in public, it isn't too surprising if some of the men in that culture see women who do display sexuality in public in the way they dress as women who are less than godly.


but here you are emphasising the otherness accorded to white girls. in addition, you're touching on an important point, which is the de facto segregation of a lot of these towns.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the de facto segregation of a lot of these towns.



This is a very sad and fucked-up thing. I don't have a good answer to it.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> My point being, though, that Tunisian men don't grope Tunisian women who are covered up. They only grope tourists who aren't covered up.
> 
> It's a rather simple example of how repression leads to exaggerated titillation by ever more 'minor' things. A man who rarely sees any bare flesh at all may be extremely excited by the sight of a bare shoulder, say. Sad and pathetic, but true. Victorian men in Britain used to get excited by the sight of an ankle ffs.



And in many cities in India Indian women, all covered up, many of them Muslim, get groped. Besides Tunisian women don't tend to cover up that much.


----------



## Deareg (Nov 10, 2011)

There have been stories in the media in the past about men in Spain and other areas that are frequented by British tourists targeting British women in sex attacks.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't know about India, but repression breeds perversion. A repressed sexuality will still find ways to come out, but those ways may be strange and perhaps unhealthy.


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


>



What country were her tits made in?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't know about India, but repression breeds perversion. A repressed sexuality will still find ways to come out, but those ways may be strange and perhaps unhealthy.



You could be talking about the finest white West London you know.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You could be talking about the finest white West London you know.


Repression exists in many forms. We in the UK are in many ways still living in the rump-end of the Victorian era in that regard.


----------



## Bassism (Nov 10, 2011)

i saw it three times made me feel 

i been thru that shit wunt like to comment further but ye fuk me that shits real xx


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Repression exists in many forms. We in the UK are in many ways still living in the rump-end of the Victorian era in that regard.



I think you're mistaking upper crust Victorian morals for those of the common man.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Repression exists in many forms. We in the UK are in many ways still living in the rump-end of the Victorian era in that regard.


up the arse!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I think you're mistaking upper crust Victorian morals for those of the common man.


i think you're mistaking middle class victorian morals for the morals of the upper class.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I think you're mistaking upper crust Victorian morals for those of the common man.


Hmmm. What I'm really thinking of is the kind of 'morality' that is espoused by tabloid newspapers today. It is a hypocritical morality, but then so was the morality of the Victorians, which is kind of the point.

The 'common man' in Victorian times was not a libertine. Far from it. (Edit: of course there are exceptions: I'm generalising like mad here.) It is hard to think of a more repressive environment than that of a Welsh Baptist mining community, for instance. It's the kind of thing Dylan Thomas railed against.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you're mistaking middle class victorian morals for the morals of the upper class.



Good point, probably true.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you're mistaking middle class victorian morals for the morals of the upper class.


Yep. That as well. It is still true in many ways that the upper classes are often less uptight about observing moral norms. Which is one aspect of Britain still living in the rump end of the Victorian era.


----------



## killer b (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm no expert on rape gangs, muslamic or otherwise. But I'd expect the targeting to be opportunistic rather than based on any racial element - in most places, white british girls are much more vulnerable to being targeted than girls of other communities.


----------



## manny-p (Nov 10, 2011)

Disgusting stuff. These guys need battered.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. What I'm really thinking of is the kind of 'morality' that is espoused by tabloid newspapers today. It is a hypocritical morality, but then so was the morality of the Victorians, which is kind of the point.
> 
> The 'common man' in Victorian times was not a libertine. Far from it. It is hard to think of a more repressive environment than that of a Welsh Baptist mining community, for instance. It's the kind of thing Dylan Thomas railed against.


i wouldn't describe life in a welsh baptist mining community as a top example of the life of the 'common man'. until at least 1870 the most common occupation was that of agricultural labourer. so yer 'common man' likely worked on a farm (and not down a pit) or, like the irish, sought seasonal labour round harvest time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

killer b said:


> I'm no expert on rape gangs, muslamic or otherwise. But I'd expect the targeting to be opportunistic rather than based on any racial element - in most places, white british girls are much more vulnerable to being targeted than girls of other communities.


but being targeted suggests an element of planning! as does grooming... and planning is not opportunistic.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, it's hard to generalise, as my edit acknowledged.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't know about India, but repression breeds perversion. A repressed sexuality will still find ways to come out, but those ways may be strange and perhaps unhealthy.



In his book 'The Islamist' Husain raised this point too.  Having spent time in Saudi Arabia, he thought the fact that every aspect of society was so sexually repressed, encouraged all the 'sexual frustration' so to speak to come out in very unhealthy and dangerous ways,


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

purenarcotic said:


> In his book 'The Islamist' Husain raised this point too. Having spent time in Saudi Arabia, he thought the fact that every aspect of society was so sexually repressed, encouraged all the 'sexual frustration' so to speak to come out in very unhealthy and dangerous ways,



I wouldn't say KSA is very representative of Muslims world-wide.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

purenarcotic said:


> In his book 'The Islamist' Husain raised this point too. Having spent time in Saudi Arabia, he thought the fact that every aspect of society was so sexually repressed, encouraged all the 'sexual frustration' so to speak to come out in very unhealthy and dangerous ways,


i'm seeing a lot about 'sexuality' and not very much about 'power' in this discussion.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I wouldn't say KSA is very representative of Muslims world-wide.



Well no, obviously not.  That wasn't what my comment was implying in any way.

littlebabyjesus said they thought repressed sexuality would appear in dangerous and unhealthy ways.  I was simply providing an example I'd read about that said a similar thing.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm seeing a lot about 'sexuality' and not very much about 'power' in this discussion.



In terms of power of the individual to control themselves?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

purenarcotic said:


> In terms of power of the individual to control themselves?


no, in terms of the power exercised the abuser over the abused. there might also be a 'by extension' towards other people of the group thus humiliated.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

purenarcotic said:


> Well no, obviously not. That wasn't what my comment was implying in any way.
> 
> littlebabyjesus said they thought repressed sexuality would appear in dangerous and unhealthy ways. I was simply providing an example I'd read about that said a similar thing.



Well, it's interesting that Muslims are glossed as almost universally repressed in matters sexual in this thread. Hence my push-back. I don't think it's the case that majority Muslim societies are on the whole sexually repressed.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, in terms of the power exercised the abuser over the abused. there might also be a 'by extension' towards other people of the group thus humiliated.



Ah right, aye, good point.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Well, it's interesting that Muslims are glossed as almost universally repressed in matters sexual in this thread. Hence my push-back. I don't think it's the case that majority Muslim societies are on the whole sexually repressed.



Hmmm. In many Muslim societies, women must cover up in public. Women and men are kept segregated in prayer and in most social environments. In Iran, a man and an unrelated woman cannot be alone together without danger. In Sudan, as dessiato pointed out the other day, even married men and women are not allowed to hold hands in public.

Extramarital sex is a criminal offence in some, and seriously taboo in others. There is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of Muslim countries.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Well, it's interesting that Muslims are glossed as almost universally repressed in matters sexual in this thread. Hence my push-back. I don't think it's the case that majority Muslim societies are on the whole sexually repressed.



No I expect not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. In many Muslim societies, women must cover up in public. Women and men are kept segregated in prayer and in most social environments. In Iran, a man and an unrelated woman cannot be alone together without danger. In Sudan, as dessiato pointed out the other day, even married men and women are not allowed to hold hands in public.
> 
> Extramarital sex is a criminal offence in some, and seriously taboo in others. There is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of Muslim countries.


so people darker hued than your usual pasty-faced white briton are sexually repressed in the case of muslims or - as has been argued - have bestial lusts in the case of blacks. i think you're seeking answers pruriently, looking at sex and sexuality and you might find something more worth seeking if you looked at this through the prism of power.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> so people darker hued than your usual pasty-faced white briton are sexually repressed in the case of muslims or - as has been argued - have bestial lusts in the case of blacks. i think you're seeking answers pruriently, looking at sex and sexuality and you might find something more worth seeking if you looked at this through the prism of power.


Is that really worthy of you? Really? I'm sexually repressed in many ways. It's something I have had to deal with as an adult, the product of a repressive childhood. Lots of people have things they have to deal with for all kinds of reasons. But a society can display general repressive characteristics. That was the point I was dealing with.

You have brought all kinds of things into that post that I did not say. Really shit. You're accusing me of racism, basically, yes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is that really worthy of you? Really? I'm sexually repressed in many ways. It's something I have had to deal with as an adult, the product of a repressive childhood. Lots of people have things they have to deal with for all kinds of reasons. But a society can display general repressive characteristics. That was the point I was dealing with.
> 
> You have brought all kinds of things into that post that I did not say. Really shit.


you said that 'there is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of muslim countries'. that's not looking at 'a society', that's fucking damning a religion and its adherents. and we're not talking about a muslim country, we're talking about bloody yorkshire.

e2a: i'm not sure why you're bringing your repression into this unless you're going to expand upon that in the context of grooming girls of a different race.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

Well Islam is certainly a repressive religion. As is Christianity, for that matter.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. In many Muslim societies, women must cover up in public. Women and men are kept segregated in prayer and in most social environments. In Iran, a man and an unrelated woman cannot be alone together without danger. In Sudan, as dessiato pointed out the other day, even married men and women are not allowed to hold hands in public.
> 
> Extramarital sex is a criminal offence in some, and seriously taboo in others. There is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of Muslim countries.



Again, Iran and Sudan, like KSA aren't really that representative. Look, I'm not saying there isn't sexism in Muslim societies, of course there is. But stuff like separation of genders at prayer isn't necessarily a good indicator of Muslim sexual repression. And for every Iran and Sudan I can hold up a Malaysia and Turkey.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well Islam is certainly a repressive religion. As is Christianity, for that matter.


but we're not even, shouldn't even, be talking about fucking islam. or christianity. there are two million or more muslims in the uk and we're talking about some people from the pakistani community, especially in yorkshire, not eg bangladeshis in whitechapel.

this is a side of you i've not seen before and i'm not particularly liking it.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> but we're not even, shouldn't even, be talking about fucking islam. or christianity. there are two million or more muslims in the uk and we're talking about some people from the pakistani community, especially in yorkshire, not eg bangladeshis in whitechapel.
> 
> this is a side of you i've not seen before and i'm not particularly liking it.



Religion does that to people. Nothing personal lbj, but it seems you've got a grudge when it comes to that topic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're accusing me of racism, basically, yes?


you're catching on.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 10, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Religion does that to people. Nothing personal lbj, but it seems you've got a grudge when it comes to that topic.


I don't. I really don't. Or at least, I have no more of a grudge against Islam than I do against Christianity. But the cultural upbringing of these men is relevant to their behaviour. And while I don't agree with dwyer that one can in any sense be 'born Muslim', it is a muslim culture that we are talking about here. Its muslimness is essential to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2011)

i would be interested, littlebabyjesus, to see any explanation you have of your comments which doesn't support a reading of racism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't. I really don't. Or at least, I have no more of a grudge against Islam than I do against Christianity. But the cultural upbringing of these men is relevant to their behaviour. And while I don't agree with dwyer that one can in any sense be 'born Muslim', it is a muslim culture that we are talking about here. Its muslimness is essential to it.


which is doubtless why the op talks about people from the pakistani community especially in yorkshire.  you're essentially saying that the pakistani men under discussion are sexually repressed as all muslims are, and this is how the repression expresses itself.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't. I really don't. Or at least, I have no more of a grudge against Islam than I do against Christianity. But the cultural upbringing of these men is relevant to their behaviour. And while I don't agree with dwyer that one can in any sense be 'born Muslim', it is a muslim culture that we are talking about here. Its muslimness is essential to it.



Good grief man. The Nazis were Christian. You see where this is going?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> which is doubtless why the op talks about people from the pakistani community especially in yorkshire.  you're essentially saying that the pakistani men under discussion never had a chance because all muslims are sexually repressed and this is how the repression expresses itself.


I'm not saying that at all. But their muslim upbringing has informed their opinions. How could it not?

Both you and TruXta have completely misunderstood me on this point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not saying that at all. But their muslim upbringing has informed their opinions. How could it not?
> 
> Both you and TruXta have completely misunderstood me on this point.


yes, because all we have to go on is what you've said.

and you have said that many muslim countries are sexually repressed. as one of the most populous muslim countries, i suppose you're including pakistan in that?

it's bad enough already, you're only going to make it worse for yourself if you continue.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Good grief man. The Nazis were Christian. You see where this is going?



If this is a problem of Pakistani men in particular, what is it about them that has led them to be as they are? To discuss the way their attitudes have formed without referring to their religion is absurd. It is relevant. And it is a cop-out to say that it isn't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If this is a problem of Pakistani men in particular, what is it about them that has led them to be as they are? To discuss the way their attitudes have formed without referring to their religion is absurd. It is relevant. And it is a cop-out to say that it isn't.


so you'd expect albanians to behave the same way because they're muslim. 

have you ever considered joining the edl as your views would make you most welcome there?


----------



## rover07 (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If this is a problem of Pakistani men in particular, what is it about them that has led them to be as they are? To discuss the way their attitudes have formed without referring to their religion is absurd. It is relevant. And it is a cop-out to say that it isn't.



Of the 1 million muslim men in the UK. 

How many are involved in these 'sex gangs'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i would be interested, littlebabyjesus, to see any explanation you have of your comments which doesn't support a reading of racism.


i'm still waiting.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If this is a problem of Pakistani men in particular, what is it about them that has led them to be as they are? To discuss the way their attitudes have formed without referring to their religion is absurd. It is relevant. And it is a cop-out to say that it isn't.



Why isn't it a problem with Bangladeshis then? After all they were East Pakistanis not 40 years ago.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> so you'd expect albanians to behave the same way because they're muslim.


No. And I haven't said that. You take what I say and twist it stupidly. But you think attitudes in Pakistani communities are not formed in the light of Islam?  They are, you know. Not talking about that doesn't help anyone.

But clearly it's impossible to say anything about that without all kinds of things you haven't said being inferred. Even reasonable people like TruXta seem to be doing it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No. And I haven't said that. You take what I say and twist it stupidly. But you think attitudes in Pakistani communities are not formed in the light of Islam? They are, you know. Not talking about that doesn't help anyone.


so pakistani attitudes are formed in the light of islam but albanian attitudes are not? how the fuck's that done then?



> But clearly it's impossible to say anything about that without all kinds of things you haven't said being inferred. Even reasonable people like TruXta seem to be doing it.


the things you have said are bad enough.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No. And I haven't said that. You take what I say and twist it stupidly. But you think attitudes in Pakistani communities are not formed in the light of Islam? They are, you know. Not talking about that doesn't help anyone.
> 
> But clearly it's impossible to say anything about that without all kinds of things you haven't said being inferred. Even reasonable people like TruXta seem to be doing it.



You're according a special status to religion in the case of Pakistani rapists, but based on this thread not so much for any other rapists. I dunno what else to say really.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You're according a special status to religion in the case of Pakistani rapists, but based on this thread not so much for any other rapists. I dunno what else to say really.


How do you think they themselves will justify what they do to themselves?

One of the most unpleasant aspects of Islam as practised by _some_ muslims (and I stress this bit in case anyone wants to jump on me) is the division of the world into muslims and non-muslims. And all kinds of horrible shit is justified through that division. It is no different from the kind of division some Christians make, and made in the past, between Christians and non-christians in order to justify their crimes to themselves.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

OK, but in brief, justification is not reason. The reasons are probably plural, whether the perps realise it or not.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Alright, this isn't going to be very popular but I'm going to say it anyway.

Of course there is a massive difference between, for instance, Malaysian Islam and Saudi Arabian Islam, but that difference is to an extent due to the extent to which the adherents of the religion take seriously the idea that the Koran is the word of god. That book contains awful things about the status of women. This is not really surprising given when it was written and the society that Muhammad grew up in. He was spewing out a lot of what he himself had been taught in his teachings.He was a product of his times, as we all are.

I would say the same if you were asking me about christianity and the horrible things it teaches if that were the subject under discussion. But it isn't. I'm not singling out Islam here, it's just that it's the particular religion that's relevant. The idea that these men's religious upbringing isn't relevant to their attitudes towards women is laughable.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> OK, but in brief, justification is not reason. The reasons are probably plural, whether the perps realise it or not.


Of course they are. I'm not saying 'Islam made them do it'. Not at all. I'm not excusing them so lightly, and neither am I saying that Islamic teaching is so straightforwardly wrong.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Alright, this isn't going to be very popular but I'm going to say it anyway.
> 
> Of course there is a massive difference between, for instance, Malaysian Islam and Saudi Arabian Islam, but that difference is to an extent due to the extent to which the adherents of the religion take seriously the idea that the Koran is the word of god. That book contains awful things about the status of women. This is not really surprising given when it was written and the society that Muhammad grew up in. He was spewing out a lot of what he himself had been taught in his teachings.He was a product of his times, as we all are.
> 
> I would say the same if you were asking me about christianity and the horrible things it teaches if that were the subject under discussion. But it isn't. I'm not singling out Islam here, it's just that it's the particular religion that's relevant. The idea that these men's religious upbringing isn't relevant to their attitudes towards women is laughable.



Do you even know that they were religious, or thought they were? Please, stop this nonsense.


----------



## Riklet (Nov 11, 2011)

What a load of crap LBJ! Don´t you think there are more important things to consider than your attempts at unpicking the frequency and cultural context of sexual assault/abuse through only examining ´what kind of islam they follow´.

There´s quite a lot more to consider surely, huh? Power relations have been mentioned, don´t you think those are far more important to examine than making vague rambling generalisations about islam practised by millions of people in different countries.  No offence, but it´s not like you even know enough about Islam to attempt this, even if it was the main relevance to consider.  Which it isn´t.  Equaling all cultural attitudes with the particular religion ´_most people´_ semi-adhere to is pretty dumb...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

So we should discuss this without discussing the moral formation of these men?

I agree that there are lots of things to consider - more important, no doubt - other than their religion. But to ignore it, to think that it isn't relevant, that it hasn't informed their view of the world, is wrong.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> so people darker hued than your usual pasty-faced white briton are sexually repressed in the case of muslims or - as has been argued - have bestial lusts in the case of blacks.


I'm calling racist on you, pickman's. Bringing all this shit into it when it wasn't even implied by me. Who is the one with the racial assumptions here?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So we should discuss this without discussing the moral formation of these men?
> 
> I agree that there are lots of things to consider - more important, no doubt - other than their religion. But to ignore it, to think that it isn't relevant, that it hasn't informed their view of the world, is wrong.



See, here you're shooting yourself in the foot. Why waste breath on the fact that they are Muslims? By all means, talk about the particular Pakistani communities in question.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Nov 11, 2011)

If I came from a culture that had me married off from an early age to a cousin I had never seen and who was likely to give my kids with birth defects due to the genetic fuck ups caused by me being the last in a long line of inter-marriages between family then I might turn into a sex case.

The issue here for me is that the girls who seem to be the victims are the ones who come from the most vulnerable backgrounds. I dont see many victims coming from strong family backgrounds or ones with Dad still around.

All I see are products of fucked up cultures and the truth is that nobody comes out of this well. These poor girls will no doubt grow up to be victims no matter what.

So yes, lets be honest and open about the problem with the Pakistani community itself but we also need to look at wider issues as well.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

Yep that sounds sensible talk Stoat Boy. Like the young Pakistani lads were saying the girls might not be asking for it but they wouldn't be targeted if they weren't walking around at 11 o clock at night (Tbf they also said dressed like slags but I don't think it's true they have to be dressed like anything necessarily). And that is a reason White girls being targetted.

Can't believe the shit lbj is getting for stating the fucking obvious. Course it's relevant that there fuckin Muslim, it's a pattern ffs, let's look at the reasons it's happening!  Muslim attitudes to sex are very very different to white attitudes. Same for drink. And for both sex and drink there is a massive culture of hipocrasy especially in the young men (but women too!).

It's common to have sex before marriage but you never talk bout it. Common to drink, same as. Date a White girl, you don't fuckin marry her. 

Look it's not like this all the time, for everyone. Course it's fuckin not. But this is the cultural background where shit gets twisted for the men who do. Casual disrespect to White girls.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

Basswhore said:


> i saw it three times made me feel
> 
> i been thru that shit wunt like to comment further but ye fuk me that shits real xx


I fuckin HEAR you mate even if no one else did  It is a real problem. One you can't talk bout without someone telling you your racist.

Some Pakistani mens attitude to women makes you wanna puke and it couldn't be further from white going out and getting pissed on a Friday night culture. And fucked up things can happen  x


----------



## dessiato (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> I fuckin HEAR you mate even if no one else did  It is a real problem. One you can't talk bout without someone telling you your racist.
> 
> Some Pakistani mens attitude to women makes you wanna puke and it couldn't be further from white going out and getting pissed on a Friday night culture. And fucked up things can happen  x


This has been my experience of the vast majority of the Muslim Pakistanis with whom I worked in the UK. They will drink, and take drugs while busily condemning any one who does the same. They also have, IME, the attitude that as long as they are molesting/fucking white girls it doesn't matter as they don't count because they are not Muslim girls. (Not just the Pakistani Muslims were guilty of this, although it was more often them than either Bangladeshi or Indians. Interestingly, it was most often among the younger ones of first and second generation UK born)

A white Muslim girl here, who covers up, is, almost everyday, subjected to being groped, until they realise she is a Muslim (they ask her when she shouts abuse at them in Arabic), then they apologise, often by saying they hadn't realised she was a Muslim because she is white.

IME experience their actions are justified by saying that it is OK to behave as they do since the victims are not Muslim,

If they are using their religion to excuse their behaviour, it would seem to me that it is a significant factor to discuss here.


----------



## Big Gunz (Nov 11, 2011)

And yet some West Indian guys have been doing this for years without using religion as an excuse yet no one starts a thread.  What about the Albanians?  Apparantly they own 70% of the brothels in the UK and do most of the sex trafficking.  Some people just seem anti muslim ignoring other things going on around them.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 11, 2011)

Big Gunz said:


> And yet some West Indian guys have been doing this for years without using religion as an excuse yet no one starts a thread. What about the Albanians? Apparantly they own 70% of the brothels in the UK and do most of the sex trafficking. Some people just seem anti muslim ignoring other things going on around them.


Perhaps that is the whole point though. The West Indians don't say 'it's OK becaus ethe victim doesn't share our religion'.


----------



## Big Gunz (Nov 11, 2011)

dessiato said:


> Perhaps that is the whole point though. The West Indians don't say 'it's OK becaus ethe victim doesn't share our religion'.



And so?  The crime is the same and yet we make more of a deal because it's cool to bash Muslims in the media?


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

The point is Big Gunz that it's *disproportionately* a problem in the Pakistani community cos of the attitudes to sex and the hypocrisy. It is still a problem with White men and black men not disputing that.


----------



## manny-p (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Do you even know that they were religious, or thought they were? Please, stop this nonsense.





TruXta said:


> See, here you're shooting yourself in the foot. Why waste breath on the fact that they are Muslims? By all means, talk about the particular Pakistani communities in question.


Pakistani communities are in the majority quite traditional and religious. I doubt these guys didn't know about the teachings of the paedo muhammed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm calling racist on you, pickman's. Bringing all this shit into it when it wasn't even implied by me. Who is the one with the racial assumptions here?


you are you daft twat.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> No it's not new news. That's whats so frustrating. That the organisations such as Child Exploitation and Online Protection won't come out and go, yer this is a problem particularly with the Pakistani men for fear of being called racist. It's crazy.



Grooming children for pederasty is not exclusive to Pakistani Muslim men. Let's put a stop to this shit right away.


----------



## manny-p (Nov 11, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Grooming children for pederasty is not exclusive to Pakistani Muslim men. Let's put a stop to this shit right away.


Yeah but gang grooming is a bigger problem with some ethnic groups than others.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Grooming children for pederasty is not exclusive to Pakistani Muslim men. Let's put a stop to this shit right away.


i don't think anyone's said it is exclusive to pakistani men, of any religion. fucking pack up your strawman and put it away.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

All decent people - male, female, white, Pakistani, whatever - ought to be appalled by the sexual exploitation of anyone (no matter what their race, religion, age, social class etc), and should do all all that they can to tackle this sort of crime.  The problem with shying away from it for fear of appearing to target one community leaves the way open for those like the EDL who are more than willing to do so, and are keen to use this as a stick to beat the wider community in the process.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think anyone's said it is exclusive to pakistani men, of any religion. fucking pack up your strawman and put it away.



The whole Pakistani sex gang thing is a red herring but of course, you'd rather throw your weight around. Cock. Go fuck yourself.

No strawman here. You could at least get your logical fallacies right.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Yeah but gang grooming is a bigger problem with some ethnic groups than others.



Evidence please.


----------



## manny-p (Nov 11, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> Evidence please.


Watch the programme and stop burying your head in the ground.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 11, 2011)

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/britains-sex-gangs-alyas-karmani-feature

Quite an interesting article about a woman who has set up workshops on this very topic.

The gangs obviously target vulnerable girls, and girls in "care" are apparently four times more likely to be groomed in this way.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> All decent people - male, female, white, Pakistani, whatever - ought to be appalled by the sexual exploitation of anyone (no matter what their race, religion, age, social class etc), and should do all all that they can to tackle this sort of crime. The problem with shying away from it for fear of appearing to target one community leaves the way open for those like the EDL who are more than willing to do so, and are keen to use this as a stick to beat the wider community in the process.


Perfect.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

I think the EDL just feed into that feeling of 'well if we took care of our own a bit better then white girls wouldn't be so vulnerable to it'. And you have the youth leader from Keighley saying the same thing the other way round- Pakistani girls have more protection from their community. It's just frustrating.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> The whole Pakistani sex gang thing is a red herring but of course, you'd rather throw your weight around. Cock. Go fuck yourself.
> 
> No strawman here. You could at least get your logical fallacies right.


haha 

they don't like it up 'em captain mainwaring


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you are you daft twat.


Nope. I didn't bring race into this at all. You did. It's depressing to be called racist because you are criticising Islam. Very depressing. Saying that you think muslim attitudes towards sex and gender equality stink in the same way that 19th century Victorian attitudes towards sex and gender equality stank is not a racist statement, regardless of whether or not you agree with it. Saying that there is no such one thing as Islam is nonsense too. To be a muslim is to believe that there is one god and that Muhammad is its prophet, and that the Koran contains the revealed word of god. There's lots to take up within that, but this basic point is there, and Islamic thought is imprisoned by it - that the Koran is a holy book.

You might take issue with my attitude towards Islam and its teachings. I know plenty of Muslims would. But that does NOT make me racist.


----------



## Stoat Boy (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> I think the EDL just feed into that feeling of 'well if we took care of our own a bit better then white girls wouldn't be so vulnerable to it'. And you have the youth leader from Keighley saying the same thing the other way round- Pakistani girls have more protection from their community. It's just frustrating.



But these girls being abused are not actually coming from anything even approaching a 'community'. They target vulnerable kids who have no real structure around them. Thats the point.

I dont want to sound all dramatic but if they did target girls, especially those under 16, from a lot of white working class families then there would be a violent back lash against them. And whites can be just as guilty of just considering girls they see with non-whites are being trash anyway.

One of the reasons why Pakistani girls get sheltered from it because they have a value within that community in terms of being bartered for marriage and so on. Thats not a positive thing and is part of the problem.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 11, 2011)

Of course another part of the problem is that those in care are more vulnerable- why should this be the case? Why should so many ex care kids end up in mental institutions, jail or easy prey for the beasts?

Something fucked up with the system itself there.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Of course another part of the problem is that those in care are more vulnerable- why should this be the case? Why should so many ex care kids end up in mental institutions, ail or easy prey for the beasts?
> 
> Something fucked up with the system itself there.



Nah, let's blame Islam.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> But these girls being abused are not actually coming from anything even approaching a 'community'. They target vulnerable kids who have no real structure around them. Thats the point.





DotCommunist said:


> Of course another part of the problem is that those in care are more vulnerable- why should this be the case? Why should so many ex care kids end up in mental institutions, jail or easy prey for the beasts?
> 
> Something fucked up with the system itself there.



Yep. Both very good points.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Nah, let's blame Islam.


Or, perhaps, let's discuss all aspects of this sensibly?


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Or, perhaps, let's discuss all aspects of this sensibly?



You go first.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> littlebabyjesus said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm. In many Muslim societies, women must cover up in public. Women and men are kept segregated in prayer and in most social environments. In Iran, a man and an unrelated woman cannot be alone together without danger. In Sudan, as dessiato pointed out the other day, even married men and women are not allowed to hold hands in public.
> ...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Who are these girls? Why are they vulnerable? Who has let them down and how can we fix it?

Who are these men? Why are they as they are? Where do their attitudes come from and what can we do about that?

I see no problem with discussing both, and anyone who thinks there is no problem within British Pakistani communities wrt attitudes towards non-Muslims is being naive. And yes, I said the word 'Muslim'. Because it is relevant here. To discuss the problem without mentioning it is not to discuss the problem at all.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


>


Muslim is a race now, is it?


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

Yes Stoat Boy, I totally agree with you. Half the problem is a lack of a proper community around the white girls. Instead of trying to build that community the EDL just shout the loudest about the pakis etc. Pricks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Muslim is a race now, is it?


no, muslim _per se_ is not a race. but you refer to the sudan. you refer to iran. you refer to the populations of 'many muslim countries' being sexually repressed. you are referring to people who are not 'white'. so it's not one race - it's, as i pointed out, people of a darker hue than your average pasty-faced white briton you're talking about; and in no complimentary fashion, either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who are these girls? Why are they vulnerable? Who has let them down and how can we fix it?
> 
> Who are these men? Why are they as they are? Where do their attitudes come from and what can we do about that?
> 
> I see no problem with discussing both, and anyone who thinks there is no problem within British Pakistani communities wrt attitudes towards non-Muslims is being naive. And yes, I said the word 'Muslim'. Because it is relevant here. To discuss the problem without mentioning it is not to discuss the problem at all.


the parameters of the debate you seek to set are inherently racist. if you were genuinely interested in dealing with this in an adult and mature way, you would not look at islam, you would look at power, the power dynamics of these relationships, the use of power and the causes behind it. you wouldn't fucking bleat on and on and fucking on about islam, unless you yourself share the agenda of the edl. and i'm becoming persuaded that you do.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, muslim _per se_ is not a race. but you refer to the sudan. you refer to iran. you refer to the populations of 'many muslim countries' being sexually repressed. you are referring to people who are not 'white'. so it's not one race - it's, as i pointed out, people of a darker hue than your average pasty-faced white briton you're talking about; and in no complimentary fashion, either.


You are confused. I refer to countries in which Islam is the official religion and in which laws and customs are formed in light of that. The colour of the skin of the people in those countries is irrelevant. _You_ are bringing that up, not me.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the parameters of the debate you seek to set are inherently racist. if you were genuinely interested in dealing with this in an adult and mature way, you would not look at islam, you would look at power, the power dynamics of these relationships, the use of power and the causes behind it. you wouldn't fucking bleat on and on and fucking on about islam, unless you yourself share the agenda of the edl. and i'm becoming persuaded that you do.


Fuck off. I don't know what else to say. You are unable to debate without being a nasty cunt, so fuck off.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

Surely these crimes have a lot of causes? Nobody is saying it is only Islam, are they? Clearly, the vast majority of these causes will apply across the board, regardless of race or religion, and ought to be tackled universally.

However, I'd be interested in seeing some sort of statistical evidence, to establish whether or not this sort of abuse is disproportionately prevalent in any particular community. If it is, then everyone from inside and out of that community ought to engage with it positively, to challenge the attitudes that encourage or allow such crimes to continue.

In doing so, we'd have to remember that the community are key to the solution; they are not the problem, only a tiny proportion of any ethnic community are wrongdoers. Like white people, chinese people, black people, and any ethnic group, the vast majority of muslims are just decent people trying to live their lives, and without any desire to hurt others.

Whilst it may contain outdated sentiments regarding women, the Koran does not encourage or condone sexual exploitation. We need to stop blaming the religion, and start looking for the real causes. If there are cultural attitudes and power imbalances that facilitate these crimes to a disproportionate extent within one community, that needs to be tackled sensitively, without demonising the community as a whole.

The trouble is that if any time someone tries to tackle the issue they are labeled racist, the only people who will be willing to offer solutions are those who are happy to wear that label.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fuck off. I don't know what else to say. You are unable to debate without being a nasty cunt, so fuck off.


you're unable to debate. i offered an alternative way to interpret this phenomenon - analysing it looking at power rather than religion or race - and you have insisted on making this about race and religion, coming out with guff the edl would be proud of. i repeatedly asked you if you could supply a reading of your posts which was not racist. you've refused, or been unable, to do so. i may be a nasty cunt - but at least i'm not a nasty little racist cunt. and you are.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

Lbj isn't racist stop being stupid.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Nov 11, 2011)

the vast majority of convicted paedophiles in this country are white. i blame christianity myself.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

Calling people racist if they are looking at this problem is half the bloody issue. Like Athos says, you end up with just the racist nutters actually talking about it if your not careful.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're unable to debate. i offered an alternative way to interpret this phenomenon - analysing it looking at power rather than religion or race - and you have insisted on making this about race and religion, coming out with guff the edl would be proud of. i repeatedly asked you if you could supply a reading of your posts which was not racist. you've refused, or been unable, to do so. i may be a nasty cunt - but at least i'm not a nasty little racist cunt. and you are.



Surely your position overlooks the interplay between power and religion, though?


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> the vast majority of convicted paedophiles in this country are white. i blame christianity myself.


All joking aside, one could make a fairly good argument for that position.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> All joking aside, one could make a fairly good argument for that position.


i don't know why you'd blame christianity when it's clear from the evidence that paedophiles seek positions of influence, status and authority - the three constituents of power identified by max weber. the number of priests, teachers and scout leaders who've been done for child abuse over the years is a reflection of the attraction of those occupations to people who seek to, er, abuse their positions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> Surely your position overlooks the interplay between power and religion, though?


when you look at the catholic sex abuse scandals you find that almost entirely they involve priests abusing members of their congregation or school pupils under their control. it's not a lay catholic thing, is it? equally, you don't find as high a proportion of believers in any religion kiddie-fiddling or grooming people for sexual abuse as you do among the priesthood. it's about power, not religion.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> when you look at the catholic sex abuse scandals you find that almost entirely they involve priests abusing members of their congregation or school pupils under their control. it's not a lay catholic thing, is it? equally, you don't find as high a proportion of believers in any religion kiddie-fiddling or grooming people for sexual abuse as you do among the priesthood. it's about power, not religion.


Religion is about power.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know why you'd blame christianity when it's clear from the evidence that paedophiles seek positions of influence, status and authority - the three constituents of power identified by max weber. the number of priests, teachers and scout leaders who've been done for child abuse over the years is a reflection of the attraction of those occupations to people who seek to, er, abuse their positions.


Status, authority and influence are reflections of hierarchy.  And what paradigm could be more hierarchical than religion?  God, Saints, Pope, Priests, Laity.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Nah, let's blame Islam.



It's not the fault of Islam per se!

It's a mix of vulnerable young girls who have been let down by the "care" system, looking for love and attention, and men who have been taught that muslim women are pure and others are fair game.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

ElizabethofYork said:


> It's not the fault of Islam per se!
> 
> It's a mix of vulnerable young girls who have been let down by the "care" system, looking for love and attention, and men who have been taught that muslim women are pure and others are fair game.


I fear that is a gross over-simplification.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> Status, authority and influence are reflections of hierarchy. And what paradigm could be more hierarchical than religion? God, Saints, Pope, Priests, Laity.


i am not denying that there are power structures  in some religions, i am denying that all religions are all about power. you talk about the catholic church, which famously has an elaborate hierarchy. but what about islam, where there is no equivalent structure? or the society of friends?


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

It's not only looked after girls this is happening to btw.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> It's not only looked after girls this is happening to btw.



No, that's true.  But the men do seem to be targetting the more vulnerable girls, whether they're in care or from chaotic backgrounds or rebelling against parental control.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i am not denying that there is power in religions, i am denying that religions are all about power. you talk about the catholic church, which famously has an elaborate hierarchy. but what about islam, where there is no equivalent structure? or the society of friends?



You don't think there's a hierarchy in Islam? Really?

http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=803&CATE=3



> The statement that there is no hierarchy in Islam is false, Allah Most High in the Qur'an differentiated between selected Prophets and others, between the earlier believers and the later believers, between those whose belief holds complete sway over them and those who admix their faith with sins, between the Anbiya', the Siddiqin, the Shuhada' and the Salihin, between the Darajaat or levels that the Believers receive from their Lord, between those who possess hikma, fiqh, albab, absar, Iman etc. as opposed to those who possess merely Islam, between those whose hearts shake at His mention as opposed to the rest, etc. It is all about hierarchy even among the disbelievers, some being closer to belief than others. To say there is no hierarchy in Islam is as novel a concept as it is a novel wording.
> 
> As for the second question the difference is that (ecclesiastical) hierarchy in Catholicism is a man-made institution while hierarchy in Islam is decreed by Allah Most High: When Allah loves someone, He decrees it to Gibril who then announces it to the angels who then announce it in the heavens and the earth, and that person becomes beloved, their prayers answered, their presence beneficial to others etc. The Awliya' or saints come second only to the Prophets in this respect, as in the verses alluded to in the previous paragraph and as in the hadith al-`Ulama' warathat al-Anbiya'. The verse stresses their spiritual primacy while the hadith stresses their primacy in knowledge. There is also Islamic hierarchy in the socio-political institution of Ahl al-Hall wal-`Aqd, which probably disappeared with the end of the rightly-guided Caliphate. And Allah knows best.



You don't think that some people use Islam to wield power? Even on the mist basic level: men using Islam as a tool to oppress women, for instance?


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

There is a load of double standards about women in Islam.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> There is a load of double standards about women in Islam.



There's a load of double standards about women full stop.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> There's a load of double standards about women full stop.


I really wish I was a bloke. Serious


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 11, 2011)

It's pretty sickening that some muslim men take the attitude that their "own women" must be kept pure for marriage-bargaining, so they turn to young non-muslim girls for sex.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

You know that some non-muslim men think they own their wives, though, right?  Give them a hiding if they talk to another man.  Rape them. Etc. etc.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> I really wish I was a bloke. Serious



Well, there are double standards for blokes too. Difference is they tend to be less damaging for blokes.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> You know that some non-muslim men think they own their wives, though, right? Give them a hiding if they talk to another man. Rape them. Etc. etc.



Yes, I know.  But this attitude isn't ingrained in the community, and isn't considered "normal" and "acceptable".


----------



## TruXta (Nov 11, 2011)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Yes, I know. But this attitude isn't ingrained in the community, and isn't considered "normal" and "acceptable".



Neither is it in the Pakistani communities in Yorkshire. Arranged marriages are, and that's problematic, but no way is rape and sexual abuse an accepted and normal way of life in those communities.


----------



## Boycey (Nov 11, 2011)

has anyone mentioned muslamic ray guns yet?


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 11, 2011)

Boycey said:


> has anyone mentioned muslamic ray guns yet?





Reemiiixxxx


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Yes, I know. But this attitude isn't ingrained in the community, and isn't considered "normal" and "acceptable".


Unlike...

Fuck it, I can't be bothered dealing with this level of ignorance.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> haha
> 
> they don't like it up 'em captain mainwaring



What a pillock.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not saying that at all. But their muslim upbringing has informed their opinions. How could it not?
> 
> Both you and TruXta have completely misunderstood me on this point.



"Muslim upbringing" is a misnomer by any stretch of the imagination. A lot more tends to depend on the other cultural forces that shape development. A Muslim upbringing in one situation (say working class Arab) can vary widely to a Muslim upbringing in another (say middle-class British Pakistani), and so on. While Islam has basic precepts, I don't recall one that allows adherents to groom _kuffr_ women.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Neither is it in the Pakistani communities in Yorkshire. Arranged marriages are, and that's problematic, but no way is rape and sexual abuse an accepted and normal way of life in those communities.


Absolutely. The Pakistani community is fuckin horrified that this kind of sexual abuse is being carried out by a small number of their community. They are having, imo, more balls than the white community in addressing why it is going on.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 11, 2011)

I can't speak about the Yorkshire Muslims per se, but wish to re-iterate that, IME non Muslim women are considered to not matter at all in sex matters. IME in Woking, Slough, Hounslow, and other places the Muslims I knew thought that sexually abusing non Muslim women was perfectly acceptable since they didn't count.

The point that I think some are making here is that some of the Muslim community do not see abuse of non Muslim women as a matter of concern.  They, IME, only see abuse of Muslim women as being a potential problem. Non Muslim women are fair game.

I wish to repeat that this is only from the Muslim men that I have met. I would guess that due to the job I was doing that would amount to about 400.

I certainly did not see this attitude among, say, Hindu, Christian, Jewish men with whom I associated. In this way I cannot divorce the religion from the attitude of the perpetrators of the abuse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How do you think they themselves will justify what they do to themselves?
> 
> One of the most unpleasant aspects of Islam as practised by _some_ muslims (and I stress this bit in case anyone wants to jump on me) is the division of the world into muslims and non-muslims. And all kinds of horrible shit is justified through that division. It is no different from the kind of division some Christians make, and made in the past, between Christians and non-christians in order to justify their crimes to themselves.



All forms of Islam, like all forms of Christianity, are accretions of interpretations of scripture, mixed in with local cultural _mores_. That some Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc arrive at rather despicable interpretations of what constitutes their belief-system is sad but unsurprising. That relatively so few *do* arrive at such conclusions *IS* surprising.
Add to that the fact that people have used "holy writ" to excuse egregious behaviour for as long as "holy writ" has existed, and the problem can be viewed as being as much about so-called "human nature" as about a form of religion _per se_.


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

dessiato said:


> I can't speak about the Yorkshire Muslims per se, but wish to re-iterate that, IME non Muslim women are considered to not matter at all in sex matters. IME in Woking, Slough, Hounslow, and other places the Muslims I knew thought that sexually abusing non Muslim women was perfectly acceptable since they didn't count.
> 
> The point that I think some are making here is that some of the Muslim community do not see abuse of non Muslim women as a matter of concern. They, IME, only see abuse of Muslim women as being a potential problem. Non Muslim women are fair game.
> 
> ...



Who are these 400 Muslim men?  What context did you meet them in?  Did you discuss this issue with them all?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

Stoat Boy said:


> If I came from a culture that had me married off from an early age to a cousin I had never seen and who was likely to give my kids with birth defects due to the genetic fuck ups caused by me being the last in a long line of inter-marriages between family then I might turn into a sex case.



Dubious structure, that. Why might you turn into a sex case with any more frequency than someone from a culture that didn't support blind inter-marriage?
There certainly don't appear to be more Orthodox Jewish "sex cases", and yet their cultural practices are very similar to those you're attributing to some Muslims.



> The issue here for me is that the girls who seem to be the victims are the ones who come from the most vulnerable backgrounds. I dont see many victims coming from strong family backgrounds or ones with Dad still around.
> 
> All I see are products of fucked up cultures and the truth is that nobody comes out of this well. These poor girls will no doubt grow up to be victims no matter what.



What are you basing this assumption on?



> So yes, lets be honest and open about the problem with the Pakistani community itself but we also need to look at wider issues as well.



Such as why you talk such bilge.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> Yep that sounds sensible talk Stoat Boy. Like the young Pakistani lads were saying the girls might not be asking for it but they wouldn't be targeted if they weren't walking around at 11 o clock at night (Tbf they also said dressed like slags but I don't think it's true they have to be dressed like anything necessarily). And that is a reason White girls being targetted.
> 
> Can't believe the shit lbj is getting for stating the fucking obvious. Course it's relevant that there fuckin Muslim, it's a pattern ffs, let's look at the reasons it's happening! Muslim attitudes to sex are very very different to white attitudes. Same for drink. And for both sex and drink there is a massive culture of hipocrasy especially in the young men (but women too!).



Thing is, you can be fairly certain that if they happened to live somewhere where the only "available" females were black, they'd target black girls instead. It's all about cultural attitudes that get *reinforced* by interpreting their religion a certain way - that "their" women are inviolate, therefore excuses are found to mistreat women who are not "theirs".



> It's common to have sex before marriage but you never talk bout it. Common to drink, same as. Date a White girl, you don't fuckin marry her.
> 
> Look it's not like this all the time, for everyone. Course it's fuckin not. But this is the cultural background where shit gets twisted for the men who do. Casual disrespect to White girls.



You've hit the nail on the head. It's the cultural background. The same one that means some Orthodox Jewish males booze, chase _Goy_ women and generally act like patriarchalist cunts, then adopt a totally different character when within their own community.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> Who are these 400 Muslim men? What context did you meet them in? Did you discuss this issue with them all?


They were people who worked for me in my last role in the UK. As a very male oriented environment all sorts were discussed, often sex, football and cars. Some of them were my seniors, most worked for me. I have even been involved in an investigation where a woman made a complaint of sexual molestation. The Muslim man, who had been seen by others said that he couldn't be guilty because as a Muslim it wasn't something he would do. He also pointed out that since the woman was a non Muslim it didn't matter anyway.

Since then I have also met some who are Turkish Muslims, they are very much a minority of the Muslims I have met, and IME do not have the same attitudes as those from Pakistan. Interestingly although there is some of the same attitude here towards non Muslim women it is nowhere near as pronounced as, IME, it is among the Pakistanis I have met. In an earlier post I also said that the worst were the first and second generation Pakistanis born in the UK.

I am referring only to my experience and have no empirical research to back this up. Despite this I do not feel that the religion, which IME is used to justify the actions, can be divorced from the discussion. I am sorry that this offends so many, but while Muslims use their religion to justify their inappropriate actions it must be considered alongside the issue.

Unless someone can conclusively show me that my experience is not relevant I shall continue with my viewpoint. I do accept that non  Muslims are also involved in abuse, but these do not, so often, excuse their behaviour by using their religion as an excuse.


----------



## trashpony (Nov 11, 2011)

Brilliant - single mothers get blamed for groups of men grooming and sexually abusing young women 

Is there anything we don't get the blame for? Wars? Famine? Pestilence? I'm sure those are all our fault too


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

dessiato said:


> Unless someone can conclusively show me that my experience is not relevant I shall continue with my viewpoint.



How about: I've met 500 Muslim men, and not one said it was ok to sexually abuse people.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> How about: I've met 500 Muslim men, and not one said it was ok to sexually abuse people.


That would not rule out the relevance of my experience to forming my opinion. Which as I keep saying, is based on my experience,


----------



## Athos (Nov 11, 2011)

dessiato said:


> That would not rule out the relevance of my experience to forming my opinion. Which as I keep saying, is based on my experience,


I guess what I'm really saying is that I don't believe you.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 11, 2011)

Athos said:


> I guess what I'm really saying is that I don't believe you.


Your choice, but that argument will not change my experience nor its role in forming my opinion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Watch the programme and stop burying your head in the ground.



There's been a similar problem for at least the last 40 years (and which Edie and I have talked about before) of gangs of men grooming girls in care, only rather than them being Pakistani Muslims, they're from all cultures and are commonly known as pimps.

This programme focuses on one locus of a particular manifestation of this problem, which is no more or less despicable than people doing much the same thing for commercial purposes. We shouldn't lose sight of the larger framework in which this shit takes place in a rush to (rightly) condemn one group of perpetrators.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

> In an earlier post I also said that the worst were the first and second generation Pakistanis born in the UK.



Sadly, this rings true for me. Something has gone badly wrong here. 20 years ago if you'd asked me, I would have guessed that those born here to Muslim parents would have generally had a more secular attitude due to growing up here, even if they were religious. But that is most emphatically not the case. And this isn't just so among Pakistanis. It's also true with Bangladeshis - sorry, anecdotal, but my sister's neighbours used to tell her how Bengalis coming here to visit were often surprised by the conservative ways of their British-born cousins. As can happen in a diaspora, attitudes can become entrenched and conservative forms of the culture adopted and stuck to. It's worrying and saddening, tbh, because it drives a wedge between communities.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

ElizabethofYork said:


> http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/articles/britains-sex-gangs-alyas-karmani-feature
> 
> Quite an interesting article about a woman who has set up workshops on this very topic.
> 
> The gangs obviously target vulnerable girls, and girls in "care" are apparently four times more likely to be groomed in this way.



Quite literally "easy meat".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

ElizabethofYork said:


> It's pretty sickening that some muslim men take the attitude that their "own women" must be kept pure for marriage-bargaining, so they turn to young non-muslim girls for sex.



And yet, for the entirety of Islam's existence, the concomitant existence of Muslim female prostitutes has to be acknowledged.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Yes, I know. But this attitude isn't ingrained in the community, and isn't considered "normal" and "acceptable".



It was until relatively recently, though. Enshrined in law too.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's been a similar problem for at least the last 40 years (and which Edie and I have talked about before) of gangs of men grooming girls in care, only rather than them being Pakistani Muslims, they're from all cultures and are commonly known as pimps.
> 
> This programme focuses on one locus of a particular manifestation of this problem, which is no more or less despicable than people doing much the same thing for commercial purposes. We shouldn't lose sight of the larger framework in which this shit takes place in a rush to (rightly) condemn one group of perpetrators.


I don't see em the same as pimps tbh. Although I guess that IS what they are to some degree.

I know (well my OH mainly, I don't really know em that well) a couple of Pakistani men who do security for/work/drive their girlfriends in town round Tannery Wharfe though, and they would *not* be pleased to be associated with all out rape of underage girls. No matter what you think of their role in the sex trade or whether you call em pimps.

On a similar note, I've said this a million times, but a lot of the girls I know who work don't take Pakistani clients cos of there attitude, the danger of them "bringing mates" (common) and general fuckedupness about sex. But bear in mind these are men seeing wg's so aren't representative of the general population I guess.


----------



## _angel_ (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> Ah, yer, 83 pages  Think I must have been on an urban holiday during that one. See pk is arguing my point on that one tbh although I've only read the first few pages.


Yeah but he quickly loses the entire plot, IIRC.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 11, 2011)

Edie said:


> I don't see em the same as pimps tbh. Although I guess that IS what they are to some degree.
> 
> I know (well my OH mainly, I don't really know em that well) a couple of Pakistani men who do security for/work/drive their girlfriends in town round Tannery Wharfe though, and they would *not* be pleased to be associated with all out rape of underage girls. No matter what you think of their role in the sex trade or whether you call em pimps.



Well, I'm not comparing them to your common-or-garden ponce, but to the same sort of shitcunts who deliberately preyed on girls in care.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, I'm not comparing them to your common-or-garden ponce, but to the same sort of shitcunts who deliberately preyed on girls in care.


 I like your thinking.

There is a really dangerous, really frightening small subset of Pakistani men under 40 who have very, very fucked up views on sex and white girls. They need sorting out.


----------



## rover07 (Nov 11, 2011)

There is a really dangerous, really frightening small subset of English men under 40 who have very, very fucked up views on sex and white girls. They need sorting out.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

rover07 said:


> There is a really dangerous, really frightening small subset of English men under 40 who have very, very fucked up views on sex and white girls. They need sorting out.


Yer fair point *sigh*


----------



## likesfish (Nov 11, 2011)

thing is a white bloke with a fucked up attitude to sex is a fucking weirdo
  The problem with Pakistan hill villages is the culture massively fucked already find yourself in 21st century with parents and a mosque who think you should live like the middle ages its really not going help is it?
 add racism poverty and apparently available girls/women bad things are going to happen 
 doesn't excuse the cunts who behave like but explains why they behave like that


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

Yer and honestly, hand on heart, the girls of the north like to get heels on, tiny skirts on, slap on and go and get shitfaced drunk. Well some of do lol ( and I'm not even a northerner  just been here a decade, but it's the way to do it). So the culture difference is pretty noticeable.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 11, 2011)

likesfish said:


> The problem with Pakistan hill villages is the culture massively fucked already find yourself in 21st century with parents and a mosque who think you should live like the middle ages its really not going help is it?


This would be a problem if it were the problem, but it isn't really. These are first and second generation British. Many of them have never been to Pakistan, and their parents and their culture isn't really the problem. This is a British problem, not a Pakistani one.


----------



## Edie (Nov 11, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This would be a problem if it were the problem, but it isn't really. These are first and second generation British. Many of them have never been to Pakistan, and their parents and their culture isn't really the problem. This is a British problem, not a Pakistani one.


My mate (bloke) went on a 'holiday' to his families village in Pakistan to meet potential brides. A lot of Pakistanis in Bradford come from a fairly small area of Pakistan. Theres a pic of him (I'd post it but I can't ) sat in-between his future father in law who looks scary as fuck, his future missus on the other side (who looks totally beautiful) and a load of the men from the village. He was stoned. The comments below on fb were some of the funniest things I've ever read


----------



## mrs quoad (Nov 12, 2011)

Having read the first page only...

The last time I went to an open day hosted by a large non-statutory organisation in west yorks, half of whose service was dedicated to supporting young girls at risk of exploitation (the other half being supporting adults in exiting prostitution), they were quite clear that this was more media attention than something that was a major concern for them. 

That's about the limit of my engagement with this, mind, so I'll bow out on that note


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

Athos said:


> You don't think there's a hierarchy in Islam? Really?
> 
> http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=803&CATE=3
> 
> You don't think that some people use Islam to wield power? Even on the mist basic level: men using Islam as a tool to oppress women, for instance?


the leadership in islam, as your quote suggests is - again turning to weber - based on charisma as opposed to bureaucratic authority. the catholic church is a bureaucratic authority, in which people's power derives from their position within the church, the most miserable low wretch of an archbishop having as much formal authority as the most charismatic and persuasive. the same cannot be said of imams or muftis or mullahs in islam.

you have conceded my point when you describe the use of islam as a tool to wield power - it's not about religion, it's about the attitude of some men towards women.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> What a pillock.


top stuff. perhaps you could advance an argument on this thread instead of dribbling insults? i doubt it though.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2011)

I think the reason why 'Western' girls are targetted is simply one of opportunity. If the young Muslim girls are kept indoors in training for their arranged marriage then it stands to reason that they're not hanging around shopping malls, which is one of the places young girls are targetted with offers of clothes and McDonalds.

eta: changed 'white' to 'western'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

dessiato said:


> They were people who worked for me in my last role in the UK. As a very male oriented environment all sorts were discussed, often sex, football and cars. Some of them were my seniors, most worked for me. I have even been involved in an investigation where a woman made a complaint of sexual molestation. The Muslim man, who had been seen by others said that he couldn't be guilty because as a Muslim it wasn't something he would do. He also pointed out that since the woman was a non Muslim it didn't matter anyway.
> 
> Since then I have also met some who are Turkish Muslims, they are very much a minority of the Muslims I have met, and IME do not have the same attitudes as those from Pakistan. Interestingly although there is some of the same attitude here towards non Muslim women it is nowhere near as pronounced as, IME, it is among the Pakistanis I have met. In an earlier post I also said that the worst were the first and second generation Pakistanis born in the UK.
> 
> ...


i think the problem here is that you are allowing your informants - the people you describe in the post - to set the parameters of the debate as you understand it. to me, looking at it from the outside, things appear rather different. using religion, using a difference in culture, to explain actions which would be despicable is appropriate only in a situation in which all cultures and all religions are accepted as equally valid. i do not believe that all beliefs are equally valid under any and all circumstances, nor that what flows from those convictions share the same level of acceptability. to my mind anything which fosters a hierarchy of humans is wrong, but hierarchy is, in an anarchist understanding, all about power, whether that hierarchy is race, gender, sexuality, religious belief or whatever.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I think the reason why white girls are targetted is simply one of opportunity. If the young Muslim girls are kept indoors in training for their arranged marriage then it stands to reason that they're not hanging around shopping malls, which is one of the places young girls are targetted with offers of clothes and McDonalds.


i think there's something in that but this alters nothing i have said about power and the exertion of power being the motivating factor and not religion.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think there's something in that but this alters nothing i have said about power and the exertion of power being the motivating factor and not religion.



If the religion is to blame we would need supporting evidence that rapists are more prevalent in Muslim communities than any other one. Holding up the misogyny within the religion isn't evidence in itself. Westerners have some pretty fucked up attitudes surrounding women too - ultra thin models, sexualising children in magazines etc - two sides of the same coin.


----------



## poisondwarf (Nov 12, 2011)

Back in the 90s i used to frequent a 24hr garage in cardiff for my late night cigarettes. There was a young pakistani guy working there that i used to regularly chat to and his attitude to women wearing short skirts was very disrespectful. I live in an area of cardiff with a large muslim population and have experienced quite a bit of disrespect from muslim men, especially where my dog is concerned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

poisondwarf said:


> Back in the 90s i used to frequent a 24hr garage in cardiff for my late night cigarettes. There was a young pakistani guy working there that i used to regularly chat to and his attitude to women wearing short skirts was very disrespectful. I live in an area of cardiff with a large muslim population and have experienced quite a bit of disrespect from muslim men, especially where my dog is concerned.


but you don't extrapolate from this that the populations of many muslim countries are sexually repressed i suppose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

likesfish said:


> thing is a white bloke with a fucked up attitude to sex is a fucking weirdo
> The problem with Pakistan hill villages is the culture massively fucked already find yourself in 21st century with parents and a mosque who think you should live like the middle ages its really not going help is it?
> add racism poverty and apparently available girls/women bad things are going to happen
> doesn't excuse the cunts who behave like but explains why they behave like that


could you expand on this 'like the middle ages' point?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> If the religion is to blame we would need supporting evidence that rapists are more prevalent in Muslim communities than any other one.


Not necessarily. This situation could be the product of the unique circumstances of Britain, the result of different communities living next to each other. 'Religion is to blame' is too simplistic, though. The question for me is 'is it a factor and if so how?'

That said, as mrs Quoad says, it's not completely clear how big the problem is. I agree with you that they are picking on vulnerable girls they can pick on. But they are also likely to have a view of the world that divides it up into Muslim/non-Muslim. A lot of Muslims do, and that kind of thinking, which stresses rights and duties towards other Muslims, could be helping them as they dehumanise their victims.

Perhaps an analogous situation would be that of suicide bombers. Islam isn't to blame for suicide bombing, but that particular form of terrorism and martyrdom is undoubtedly the product of a particular interpretation of Islam.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> top stuff. perhaps you could advance an argument on this thread instead of dribbling insults? i doubt it though.



You're such a hypocrite. Doctor, heal thyself.


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you are you daft twat.



Projecting again, Nitpickman's?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But they are also likely to have a view of the world that divides it up into Muslim/non-Muslim. A lot of Muslims do, and that kind of thinking, which stresses rights and duties towards other Muslims, could be helping them as they dehumanise their victims.



Perhaps. But then this raises the question: Are there no sex crimes in Muslim countries as there's limited available westernised women to dehumanise?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

nino_savatte said:


> You're such a hypocrite. Doctor, heal thyself.


i'll take that as a 'no' then.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Perhaps. But then this raises the question: Are there no sex crimes in Muslim countries as there's limited available westernised women to dehumanise?


Not really. Are there no sex crimes within Pakistani communities in Britain? I would think that there are. But this particular form of sex crime does appear to be the product of the circumstances of Britain in which there are vulnerable non-muslims available to exploit. That's all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Islam isn't to blame for suicide bombing, but that particular form of terrorism and martyrdom is undoubtedly the product of a particular interpretation of Islam.


no it isn't you ignorant twat. leaving aside the frequent use of suicide attacks in history, the suicide bomber as we know and love them today was an innovation of the famously non-muslim tamil tigers - their first use of a suicide bomber was in 1987 and killed 40 soldiers. the 72 virgins may be a muslim innovation; the tactic does not originate from any form of islam.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 12, 2011)

No religion tells people to rape or sexually assault others.

There is a lot of confusion in this thread about what are religious values and what are cultural traditions.  There is a big difference; the two often complement one another but there is a subtle difference that NEEDS to be recognised.

Edie's original post I think made an important point that a program like the one shown adds fuel to the EDL fire.  I can see the banners and slogans now: 'Protect our women: keep the Muzzies out!'.  I haven't seen the program but all this 'well of course Muslims don't agree with rape' is unbelievably patronising. Well durr, nor does any human being who isn't a massive dick.

Pickman's point about power is an extremely important one; the idea of having complete control and power is an important factor in the psychology of why people go out and rape others.  Whether because traditional cultural values view women as secondary is a contributing factor for Pakistani men is a possibility but frankly, this is a view that the Western world held until a very short time ago and arguably still does, I don't think we can really stand and take much more of a moral high ground.


----------



## Athos (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the leadership in islam, as your quote suggests is - again turning to weber - based on charisma as opposed to bureaucratic authority. the catholic church is a bureaucratic authority, in which people's power derives from their position within the church, the most miserable low wretch of an archbishop having as much formal authority as the most charismatic and persuasive. the same cannot be said of imams or muftis or mullahs in islam.
> 
> you have conceded my point when you describe the use of islam as a tool to wield power - it's not about religion, it's about the attitude of some men towards women.



I understand what you're saying (and, to some extent, agree with you about the differences in the bases of power within the two religions), but you seem to have missed my point.  It was that you can't simply say these crimes are about power, not about religion, because the interaction between the two is so complex.  Even in cases where Islam presents the opportunity rather than the motive i.e. where power may be the motive, and a particular interpretation of Islam the tool, we still have to recognise the important role that the religion plays.  It may be that such problems stem from some men wanting to abuse women, but, where that is facilitated by a religion, then you can't exclude religion as part of the problem.


----------



## poisondwarf (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> but you don't extrapolate from this that the populations of many muslim countries are sexually repressed i suppose.


 
No, of course not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not really. Are there no sex crimes within Pakistani communities in Britain? I would think that there are. But this particular form of sex crime does appear to be the product of the circumstances of Britain in which there are vulnerable non-muslims available to exploit. That's all.


the elephant in your argument now is that it rests on the pakistanis carrying out these activities being racist towards whites, with the target for that in this case being white women.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

poisondwarf said:


> No, of course not.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not really. Are there no sex crimes within Pakistani communities in Britain? I would think that there are. But this particular form of sex crime does appear to be the product of the circumstances of Britain in which there are vulnerable non-muslims available to exploit. That's all.



But Fred West also preyed on vulnerable girls from children's homes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> But Fred West also preyed on vulnerable girls from children's homes.


yes. Sorry, I'm probably not being clear - men preying on vulnerable girls is of course nothing new at all. Maybe I should have said these men preying on these girls is a specific case rather than a particular form.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

Athos said:


> I understand what you're saying (and, to some extent, agree with you about the differences in the bases of power within the two religions), but you seem to have missed my point. It was that you can't simply say these crimes are about power, not about religion, because the interaction between the two is so complex. Even in cases where Islam presents the opportunity rather than the motive i.e. where power may be the motive, and a particular interpretation of Islam the tool, we still have to recognise the important role that the religion plays. It may be that such problems stem from some men wanting to abuse women, but, where that is facilitated by a religion, then you can't exclude religion as part of the problem.


i don't believe you can say that these activities are caused by or inspired or really justified by islam when of the muslim community in britain - which hails from a wide range of countries - the only muslims identified as taking part in these crimes are pakistani. to take an example from catholicism, the global incidents of child sexual abuse by priests suggest that there's something about the catholic church which facilitates these horrendous activities by priests so inclined. it is not irish priests or american priests or german priests - it has been priests from a wide range of backgrounds. in the case under discussion it isn't albanian muslims or bosnian muslims or egyptian muslims or bangladeshi muslims, we're talking about some pakistani muslims. the difference between the global scale of catholic child abuse and the sex gangs is that the gangs under discussion originate in one specific community. so i would say that rather than 'islam' being to 'blame' it is something else within the culture of those communities. otherwise you'd see these activities going on in tower hamlets.

this is where power comes in again. or, rather, powerlessness. in addition, i would argue that the segregated nature of the communities in towns in yorkshire promote seeing the other community as alien, as other. just because some people frame the descriptions of their activities in religious terms doesn't mean that their actions are religiously based - for example, the bible has been relied upon by people of all political persuasions to justify their activities, from the theories of regicide put forward by duplessis-mornay in the sixteenth century to arguments for monarchy put forward by others. they started with what they wanted to argue for - or against - and used a text to justify their views. here again i argue that starting from a position of power/powerlessness and wanting to exercise power over people from the dominant culture, from the majority population, you may end up with a religious justification. nonetheless, this justification is in my view a figleaf covering the real issues and motivations. otherwise what you're saying is that either it is a duty in islam to go out and do this or it is certainly not accounted a sin to go out and do this. and if you're saying that in terms of 'islam' then it would be a universal activity within that religion to go out and abduct, groom and otherwise coerce women to taking part in these gangs' activities. there has been no evidence i've seen on this thread to suggest that is the case.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no it isn't you ignorant twat. leaving aside the frequent use of suicide attacks in history, the suicide bomber as we know and love them today was an innovation of the famously non-muslim tamil tigers - their first use of a suicide bomber was in 1987 and killed 40 soldiers. the 72 virgins may be a muslim innovation; the tactic does not originate from any form of islam.


Again, I probably wasn't clear. I did not intend to say that suicide attacks were an invention of Islam. But this particular instantiation of it is deeply informed by Islam, and it is a particular form of Islam that is used as justification and motivation.

Perhaps instead of screaming ignorant twat at people, you might want to think about what they are meaning to say. You scream blue murder on here very often when all you're really doing is being pedantic, something that is somewhat ironic given how you misunderstand things very often.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 12, 2011)

There's been no evidence because it simply isn't true. Islam does not tell people to go out and rape in the same way the Catholic church does not preach pedophilia as a great idea.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the elephant in your argument now is that it rests on the pakistanis carrying out these activities being racist towards whites, with the target for that in this case being white women.


No elephants. Pink ones, perhaps?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2011)

I also don't necessarily think Christianity is responsible for the paedo priests*. It's a chicken and the egg question. Do people in positions of power with access to children become sexually deviant or do sexual deviants become attracted to positions of power with access to children?

*yes they were responsible for the cover up etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Again, I probably wasn't clear. I did not intend to say that suicide attacks were an invention of Islam. But this particular instantiation of it is deeply informed by Islam, and it is a particular form of Islam that is used as justification and motivation.
> 
> Perhaps instead of screaming ignorant twat at people, you might want to think about what they are meaning to say. You scream blue murder on here very often when all you're really doing is being pedantic, something that is somewhat ironic given how you misunderstand things very often.


i asked you several times - and the posts are there to show it - to find out whether you could place any complexion on your posts which were not racist. you did not reply.

if i misunderstand you and if i am wrong in believing you a racist, it's not for want of trying to find out what you meant.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 12, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I also don't necessarily think Christianity is responsible for the paedo priests*. It's a chicken and the egg question. Do people in positions of power with access to children become sexually deviant or do sexual deviants become attracted to positions of power with access to children?
> 
> *yes they were responsible for the cover up etc.



I think it's the second.

Think about how many pedos get done who work in kids homes and nurseries and when some background research is done it's found that they had seen images / behaved inappropriately previously.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i asked you several times - and the posts are there to show it - to find out whether you could place any complexion on your posts which were not racist. you did not reply.


The posts are also there to show how you are the one who has been reading a racist backstory into my posts - pointing out skin colour, for instance, several times.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

purenarcotic said:


> There's been no evidence because it simply isn't true. Islam does not tell people to go out and rape in the same way the Catholic church does not preach pedophilia as a great idea.


i didn't say 'the catholic church preaches pedophilia' - obviously they don't, there's probably a much lower incidence of paedophilia among the laity than among the clergy. i said there's something about the catholic church which facilitates such activities. and there is. they may not tell priests 'abuse children' but there's plentiful evidence to demonstrate they did fuck all to stop it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The posts are also there to show how you are the one who has been reading a racist backstory into my posts - pointing out skin colour, for instance, several times.


if you are going to say that the populations of many muslim countries are sexually repressed it does suggest you mean people of a darker hue than your average pasty-faced white briton.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

purenarcotic said:


> I think it's the second.
> 
> Think about how many pedos get done who work in kids homes and nurseries and when some background research is done it's found that they had seen images / behaved inappropriately previously.


it's about power and access to the objects of that power again.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't say 'the catholic church preaches pedophilia' - obviously they don't, there's probably a much lower incidence of paedophilia among the laity than among the clergy. i said there's something about the catholic church which facilitates such activities. and there is. they may not tell priests 'abuse children' but there's plentiful evidence to demonstrate they did fuck all to stop it.



Oh I agree entirely.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if you are going to say that the populations of many muslim countries are sexually repressed it does suggest you mean people of a darker hue than your average pasty-faced white briton.


No it doesn't. That's simply faulty logic. And I didn't say that the populations of many muslim countries are sexually repressed. I said that the culture of many muslim countries was sexually repressive. There is an important difference.

You're starting to piss me off with your 'pasty-faced white briton' bullshit. I am now going to ask you politely not to repeat it.


----------



## likesfish (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> could you expand on this 'like the middle ages' point?


 I'm probably wrong but  A lot of Pakistani immigrants families have links to hill villages so you've got a culture that frankly would need to advance a couple of hundred years to make into the middle ages 
  sorry killing rape victims and honor killings is wrong might not be able to take the moral high ground but at least I'm not at the bottom of a fucking moral well


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No it doesn't. That's simply faulty logic. And I didn't say that the populations of many muslim countries are sexually repressed. I said that the culture of many muslim countries was sexually repressive. There is an important difference.
> 
> You're starting to piss me off with your 'pasty-faced white briton' bullshit.


no, you said 'there is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of muslim countries'. nothing there about the culture. if there is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of muslim countries, it follows that the populations of the many muslim countries to which you refer are sexually repressed. with me so far?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

likesfish said:


> I'm probably wrong but A lot of Pakistani immigrants families have links to hill villages so you've got a culture that frankly would need to advance a couple of hundred years to make into the middle ages
> sorry killing rape victims and honor killings is wrong might not be able to take the moral high ground but at least I'm not at the bottom of a fucking moral well


what i think you're driving at is that this is an example of a more primitive culture than our own.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, you said 'there is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of muslim countries'. nothing there about the culture. if there is a lot of sexual repression in a lot of muslim countries, it follows that the populations of the many muslim countries to which you refer are sexually repressed. with me so far?


If there is a lot of sexual repression, you will have sexually repressed people. Not everyone. Not whole populations, which is why what you said I said was a misrepresentation. A small one but an important one. Sexual repression exists everywhere of course. And I would argue that one of the major functions of many religions is sexual repression - a function that serves to regulate sexual behaviour.

I made the comparison to Victorian Britain earlier, and I stand by that comparison. Were all Victorian Britons sexually repressed? No. Were more Britons sexually repressed then than now? I would say so, yes. That kind of repression also leads to heightened hypocrisy - the brothels in 19th-C Britain bulged at the same time as the virgin bride was held up as the ideal. I see this kind of hypocrisy in all societies where there is some kind of idealisation of virginity in girls.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if you are going to say that the populations of many muslim countries are sexually repressed it does suggest you mean people of a darker hue than your average pasty-faced white briton.



Are you propagating the notion that Islam is beyond criticism as any negative critique simply boils down to racism?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I made the comparison to Victorian Britain earlier, and I stand by that comparison.



I wasn't aware that in Victorian Britain you could take multiple wives.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you propagating the notion that Islam is beyond criticism as any negative critique simply boils down to racism?


This is why that reaction irritates me so much. I said it earlier - you may not agree with my points about Islam, but it is possible to disagree with me without thinking I am being racist in my points. In fact, disagreeing with me because you think I'm racist isn't really disagreeing with me at all. It's just going 'lalala' and not even thinking about the things I'm saying.


----------



## likesfish (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> what i think you're driving at is that this is an example of a more primitive culture than our own.



 yes same as Somali has some very big problems with its culture some very good things but the negatives unfortunatly outweigh the postives.
 we obviously have a  lot of problems with our culture and anybody who says otherwise is an idiot.


----------



## Edie (Nov 12, 2011)

mrs quoad said:


> Having read the first page only...
> 
> The last time I went to an open day hosted by a large non-statutory organisation in west yorks, half of whose service was dedicated to supporting young girls at risk of exploitation (the other half being supporting adults in exiting prostitution), they were quite clear that this was more media attention than something that was a major concern for them.
> 
> That's about the limit of my engagement with this, mind, so I'll bow out on that note


Thats interesting cos the woman who advised me to watch this works for Joanna. I guess her views are her own though rather then 'official views' necessarily. Plus that project works with very vulnerable street girls who are no doubt more at risk then escorts, plus they are a Christian charity that has a particular view on wgs being victims I'd guess (altho they do good work ).

What project were you talking about? I'd be interested to know what West Yorkshire polices view was on it, whether it's a significant problem or just a very few isolated nasty cases.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you propagating the notion that Islam is beyond criticism as any negative critique simply boils down to racism?


no


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no


And yet the judgement that many, or most, muslim countries are sexually repressive places, and that this sexual repression is carried out within a religious framework, is racist, according to you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If there is a lot of sexual repression, you will have sexually repressed people. Not everyone. Not whole populations, which is why what you said I said was a misrepresentation. A small one but an important one. Sexual repression exists everywhere of course. And I would argue that one of the major functions of many religions is sexual repression - a function that serves to regulate sexual behaviour.
> 
> I made the comparison to Victorian Britain earlier, and I stand by that comparison. Were all Victorian Britons sexually repressed? No. Were more Britons sexually repressed then than now? I would say so, yes. That kind of repression also leads to heightened hypocrisy - the brothels in 19th-C Britain bulged at the same time as the virgin bride was held up as the ideal. I see this kind of hypocrisy in all societies where there is some kind of idealisation of virginity in girls.


wr2 victorian britain i would say that in the course of the formation of the modern state sexual activity became more regulated and that part of this entailed the promulgation of new laws such as the criminal law amendment act of 1885. i would also say that the changes in british society between 1837 and 1901 make any notion of a unitary 'victorian britain' utterly meaningless. it's like saying people in twentieth century britain were sexually repressed. who? where? when? how? why? the criminalisation of homosexuality in britain took place late in the nineteenth century - it's probably fair to say gay men were less externally repressed in 1880 than 1890. however, the notion of a virgin bride was at any time in the nineteenth century more a bourgeois ideal than a universal one.

if you say there's a lot of sexual repression in many muslim countries then it follows that the population is sexually repressed. that is, that people's sexualities flow in different channels to those it would follow were they sexually liberated. if there's sexual repression, then it will affect all members of that society, whether the individual believes themselves sexually liberated or not. if sexual activity deviant from the norm has to take place behind closed doors or in public toilets or in conditions of secrecy then that sexuality is not liberated. people may pursue whatever activities they like with partners of their own choosing but if they cannot do so openly, then they are repressed. if they have to live a lie then they are not liberated. if they cannot freely choose their partners then no matter what their activities they are not liberated. to a greater or lesser extent we are all repressed: though from the tenor of your posts you consider this to be greater in many muslim countries. where i differ, and it's the same difference i believe truxta expressed, is the means by which this sexual repression may express itself in this country. the upshot of what passes for your argument seems to me to be that for some pakistani men the sexual repression and religious indoctrination they've experienced releases itself in the grooming and gang rape of white women in yorkshire. correct me if i've got you wrong.


----------



## Athos (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> and if you're saying that in terms of 'islam' then it would be a universal activity within that religion to go out and abduct, groom and otherwise coerce women to taking part in these gangs' activities. there has been no evidence i've seen on this thread to suggest that is the case.



Obviously,  I'm not saying that.  What I'm saying is that you cannot discount entirely the significance that religion may play in some of these crimes.  Yes, I recognise that power is a big factor, and that people can use religion to justify their actions, but if it is the case that a group of young Pakistani men believe it is ok to sexually exploit non-muslims (which, incidentally, I've yet to be convinced if), then the very fact that they consider religion to be significant makes it so.  I'm not saying Islam encourages or condones it, and recognise that the vast majority of muslims would abhor such abuse, but the issue of religion remains a factor.  If we don't acknowledge and discuss that, who will?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

I am suggesting that sexual repression may play a role, yes. Nothing more strong than that, although edie's posts about wgs not taking Pakistani clients suggests there may be something in it.

That's the kind of constructive post I can engage with, Pickman's. As I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do take strong exception to accusations of racism. I would hope that on reflection, you may reconsider that accusation. Call me stupid, ignorant, misguided. Call me a cunt if you want. But think twice about calling people racist, please.


----------



## TruXta (Nov 12, 2011)

That was unexpected. From both of you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I am suggesting that sexual repression may play a role, yes. Nothing more strong than that, although edie's posts about wgs not taking Pakistani clients suggests there may be something in it.
> 
> That's the kind of constructive post I can engage with, Pickman's. As I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do take strong exception to accusations of racism. I would hope that on reflection, you may reconsider that accusation. Call me stupid, ignorant, misguided. Call me a cunt if you want. But think twice about calling people racist, please.


you've had to apologise a couple of times on this thread for expressing yourself badly. you've now clarified what you meant - i am sorry you did not do so earlier. i regret calling you a racist now you've expanded on your point and shown a more nuanced view than i'd thought.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 12, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you've had to apologise a couple of times on this thread for expressing yourself badly. you've now clarified what you meant - i am sorry you did not do so earlier. i regret calling you a racist now you've expanded on your point and shown a more nuanced view than i'd thought.


Ok. My earlier posts probably could have been better expressed. We can move on then. Misunderstandings happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok. My earlier posts probably could have been better expressed. We can move on then. Misunderstandings happen.


onwards and upwards


----------



## _angel_ (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I am suggesting that sexual repression may play a role, yes. Nothing more strong than that, although edie's posts about wgs not taking Pakistani clients suggests there may be something in it.
> 
> That's the kind of constructive post I can engage with, Pickman's. As I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do take strong exception to accusations of racism. I would hope that on reflection, you may reconsider that accusation. Call me stupid, ignorant, misguided. Call me a cunt if you want. But think twice about calling people racist, please.


racist


----------



## Edie (Nov 12, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I am suggesting that sexual repression may play a role, yes. Nothing more strong than that, although edie's posts about wgs not taking Pakistani clients suggests there may be something in it.
> 
> That's the kind of constructive post I can engage with, Pickman's. As I said, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do take strong exception to accusations of racism. I would hope that on reflection, you may reconsider that accusation. Call me stupid, ignorant, misguided. Call me a cunt if you want. But think twice about calling people racist, please.


Remember I only talk about my own experiences. Of the three girls I'm close to, one had a proper bad experience of "mates" joining a punt so this has obviously effected how we think. My other mate is half Pakistani so for obvious reasons doesn't punt Pakistani men.

I know of other wg's who have no problem with Pakistani clients. It's a divise topic.


----------

