# Gammon is not racist



## likesfish (Oct 22, 2018)

It's not, being a middle age fat angry white racist bloke is not a protected group.

If you are angry at being called gammon you should probably have a good long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

nobody's going to be shoving gammon steaks through people letterboxes or screaming it at kids.


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## Grump (Oct 22, 2018)

Gammon, gammon, do you want to be in my gang?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 22, 2018)

What makes someone Gammon?


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## kebabking (Oct 22, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What makes someone Gammon?



Looking like a Brexity Sun-reader. You know, like a thicky racist who shouldn't be allowed to vote...


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2018)

It’s not racist but at best a politically vacant jibe, at worst ‘progressives’ sneering at who they consider to be their inferiors.


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## Spymaster (Oct 22, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What makes someone Gammon?


It's a pejorative term for white people often used by some PoC, particularly youngsters. Like _honky_ or _cracker_.


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## Johnny Vodka (Oct 22, 2018)

Seems pretty racist to me - you have to white to be gammon, yeah?  I'm not saying using the word is the worst crime ever but it does make you look silly and hypocritical IMO.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2018)

It’s used by plenty of white people (liberals and the left) also (mostly?).


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 22, 2018)

It was invented by white people to describe red-faced ranting racist white people on Question Time. I can probably point to the few twitter accounts that started it off.


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## Chilli.s (Oct 22, 2018)

I thought gammon was a descriptive term for ruddy faced chubby chaps that was used in the 1800's, not necessarily racist in that context.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2018)

It’s ageist.


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## Johnny Vodka (Oct 22, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It was invented by white people to describe red-faced ranting racist white people on Question Time. I can probably point to the few twitter accounts that started it off.



But gammon is pink.


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## two sheds (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It’s ageist.



Are you calling me gammon?


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It’s ageist.



And with a class element in some cases.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2018)

Johnny Vodka said:


> But gammon is pink.



It means <frothing angry face>


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## Johnny Vodka (Oct 22, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And with a class element in some cases.



And probably a bit baldist.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2018)




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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2018)

Johnny Vodka said:


> And probably a bit baldist.



Mostly someone’s views rather than their appearance. Of course they love it if the appearance is ageing fat bald white bloke but ageing fat bald white blokes who aren’t UKIP seldom receive the moniker.


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## keybored (Oct 22, 2018)

likesfish said:


> If you are angry at being called gammon


Is anyone?


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 22, 2018)

Gammon is full haram tbf.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 22, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It's a pejorative term for white people often used by some PoC, particularly youngsters. Like _honky_ or _cracker_.



Can you stop this nonsense of attributing it to young POC.

It started as a description of red faced male racists on QT AFAIR...it's trickled into youth speak. It was coined by White people about White people.


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## Thimble Queen (Oct 22, 2018)

I honestly haven't heard anyone use the term honky since the early 90s. Young people today do not even know what it is.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2018)

We’ve done this before on here and my position remains that it is bad politics to conflate simeone’s physical appearance with their views.


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## Spymaster (Oct 22, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> ...it's trickled into youth speak.


And in that context it is a racist term.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2018)

Whether or not it’s racist is a complete distraction that people seem magnetically fixated on.


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## keybored (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> We’ve done this before on here and my position remains that it is bad politics to conflate simeone’s physical appearance with their views.


I'm dreading the day I get unfairly called a "gammon", being white, male and in my 40s. I'm also losing hair but can't exactly help male pattern baldness. And yes, my face is often red. Burning all these crosses produces a lot of heat.


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## Johnny Vodka (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> We’ve done this before on here and my position remains that it is bad politics to conflate simeone’s physical appearance with their views.



Aye, you're correct. It's like someone's political views gives you the right to take the piss out of a certain appearance.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> We’ve done this before on here and my position remains that it is bad politics to conflate simeone’s physical appearance with their views.



Agreed. But it's a hard habit to shake sometimes. Here's the original gammon image. I mean, c'mon


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2018)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> View attachment 150396
> 
> Agreed. But it's a hard habit to shake sometimes. Here's the original gammon image. I mean, c'mon



There are a load of people who look like that in this country though. They don’t all believe the same things.


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## cantsin (Oct 22, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It's a pejorative term for white people often used by some PoC, particularly youngsters. Like _honky_ or _cracker_.



suspect lot more crackers using it than PoC's


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There are a load of people who look like that in this country though. They don’t all believe the same things.



Yes, I know.


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## keybored (Oct 22, 2018)




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## cantsin (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There are a load of people who look like that in this country though. They don’t all believe the same things.



true, you could find 9 bods like that at TUC conf within one audience camera shot ( and another one here replying to yr post at present) , but isn't there implied , specific socio- political critiique embedded in 'gammon' as well, even if it's as as blunt as ' another angry white, middle aged, right wing bloke ' ?


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## brogdale (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> We’ve done this before on here and my position remains that it is bad politics to conflate simeone’s physical appearance with their views.


This, with the further, specific qualification of skin colour.
I think Spymaster is spot on; a term to avoid...there are other better descriptors of these folk's views.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2018)

cantsin said:


> true, you could find 9 bods like that at TUC conf within one audience camera shot ( and another one here replying to yr post at present) , but isn't there implied , specific socio- political critiique embedded in 'gammon' as well, even if it's as as blunt as ' another angry white, middle aged, right wing bloke ' ?



The angry white (middle class? Middle England?) man is definitely a thing but Gammon is too reductive as a term. 

Are all these men angry about the same things for the same reasons? Where are the women in this picture? Are non-white men angry about different things for different reasons?

I think Gammon is a comforting term for some younger left-wing people. But not a useful one.


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## treelover (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> We’ve done this before on here and my position remains that it is bad politics to conflate simeone’s physical appearance with their views.



Men in 'ill fitting suits'


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## pseudonarcissus (Oct 22, 2018)

Chilli.s said:


> I thought gammon was a descriptive term for ruddy faced chubby chaps that was used in the 1800's, not necessarily racist in that context.


 used in
Nicolas Nickleby, according to Wikipedia 
"The meaning of that term—gammon,’ said Mr. Gregsbury, ‘is unknown to me. If it means that I grow a little too fervid, or perhaps even hyperbolical, in extolling my native land, I admit the full justice of the remark. I am proud of this free and happy country. My form dilates, my eye glistens, my breast heaves, my heart swells, my bosom burns, when I call to mind her greatness and her glory."


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 22, 2018)

treelover said:


> Men in 'ill fitting suits'



Moderately well-tailored, surely


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 22, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s used by plenty of white people (liberals and the left) also (mostly?).


Does that mean it's not racist?


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## cantsin (Oct 22, 2018)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Moderately well-tailored, surely




"It was like having a huge wardrobe fall on top of you. With a very small key. " 

(C Weatherall, Mrs Soames #1, reminiscing about the good times )


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 22, 2018)

cantsin said:


> true, you could find 9 bods like that at TUC conf within one audience camera shot ( and another one here replying to yr post at present) , but isn't there implied , specific socio- political critiique embedded in 'gammon' as well, even if it's as as blunt as ' another angry white, middle aged, right wing bloke ' ?


But not one who looks like George Clooney. It has a person's particular looks attached to it. At best, it's on the same level as 'chav', from what I can tell, only having heard of it today.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2018)

treelover said:


> Men in 'ill fitting suits'


Policemen trying to fit in


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## mojo pixy (Oct 22, 2018)

_Ill Fitting Suits_ would be a good name for a band.
EtA, Oh look...

On _Gammon_, I for one think it's great to have another insult to use on each other. We defnitely didn't have enough already. Pro Tip .. if anyone ever calls you an insulting name, call them it straight back, obviously. If the insult makes no sense at all when used on them, so much the better


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 22, 2018)




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## Wilf (Oct 22, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think Gammon is a comforting term for some younger left-wing people. But not a useful one.


That definitely - and with some classist assumptions in the mix as well.


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## twentythreedom (Oct 22, 2018)

Gammon is basically Phil Mitchell


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 22, 2018)

Wilf said:


> That definitely - and with some classist assumptions in the mix as well.


So it's a subset of 'chav', then. An older chav gentleman.


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## cantsin (Oct 22, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So it's a subset of 'chav', then. An older chav gentleman.



nah, not even close - Gammon is having a good old moan about political correctness over G + Ts,  after a round of golf with fellow middle aged Farage fans, nowt to do with 'chav'


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 22, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So it's a subset of 'chav', then. An older chav gentleman.



dunno really.

i'm not keen on the term 'gammon' and even less so on 'chav' but i'd sort of got the idea of 'gammon' being more the daily mail / express types who vote ukip and who used to think the bnp had a point but were too lower class to vote for...


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 22, 2018)

i thought gammons were usually more c1, c2 daily mail/express readers. small business owners, shopkeepers and what not. "aspirational working class/artisan/clerical" - pompous, self important, judgmental, "charity begins at home", envious and definitely tory. the miserable old cunt who wouldn't give you your ball back. 
not racist. the skin complexion is from getting all hot under the collar cos "WHY CAN'T WE JUST LEAVE!!??!", bring back the birch and corbyn not being very keen on thermonuclear armageddon.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Does that mean it's not racist?



People aren’t called it for being white like an Asian might be called “P*ki”. There’s a few more things in play such as age and being male along with espoused views.


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 22, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno really.
> 
> i'm not keen on the term 'gammon' and even less so on 'chav' but i'd sort of got the idea of 'gammon' being more the daily mail / express types who vote ukip and who used to think the bnp had a point but were too lower class to vote for...




great minds eh?


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## Wilf (Oct 22, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So it's a subset of 'chav', then. An older chav gentleman.


What, like Chrysallis > Butterfly?


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## imposs1904 (Oct 22, 2018)

Can't we just go back to calling them cunts?


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## brogdale (Oct 22, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> i thought gammons were usually more c1, c2 daily mail/express readers. small business owners, shopkeepers and what not. "aspirational working class/artisan/clerical" - pompous, self important, judgmental, "charity begins at home", envious and definitely tory. the miserable old cunt who wouldn't give you your ball back.
> not racist. the skin complexion is from getting all hot under the collar cos "WHY CAN'T WE JUST LEAVE!!??!", bring back the birch and corbyn not being very keen on thermonuclear armageddon.


Yeah but skin colour; not a great place to start from, is it?


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 22, 2018)

brogdale said:


> Yeah but skin colour; not a great place to start from, is it?



its appropriate - angry blokes - red faced. 

tbh - fuck em. they're cunts.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 22, 2018)

brogdale said:


> Yeah but skin colour; not a great place to start from, is it?



In the original gammon gallery, quite a lot of the skin colour is self-inflicted rather than inherent.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> In the original gammon gallery, quite a lot of the skin colour is self-inflicted rather than inherent.


Old white blokes with a heart condition. Yeah, brought it on themselves.

If they're fat, we should call them fat as well. Fat gammon fuckers.


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> its appropriate - angry blokes - red faced.
> 
> tbh - fuck em. they're cunts.


Yes, fuck 'em...fine...for saying/behaving/voting etc in the way that they do. But...there's far better pejorative terms that one that focuses on their skin colour. I think most on here would instinctively steer away from any other insults that related to that innate characteristic, so why make the exception/set the precedent with this (fairly lame) term. We can do better than that.


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 23, 2018)

they are red faced because they are angry - its not about pigmentation its about capillaries. its directly related to their whole shitty worldview.


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> In the original gammon gallery, quite a lot of the skin colour is self-inflicted rather than inherent.


I'm often a bit florid when I emerge from 'spoons; so that's me sorted, then?


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> they are red faced because they are angry - its not about pigmentation its about capillaries. its directly related to their whole shitty worldview.


No it fucking isn't.


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## cantsin (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Old white blokes with a heart condition. Yeah, brought it on themselves.
> 
> If they're fat, we should call them fat as well. Fat gammon fuckers.



you've said up thread you've only come accross the term today, but you're flailing about apparently desperate to squeeze it into whatever vaguely classist / otherwise offensive box you've alighted on next...no biggy, but maybe let it go, and see how it feels a few weeks (aka internet years ) down the line ?


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> they are red faced because they are angry - its not about pigmentation its about capillaries. its directly related to their whole shitty worldview.


Honestly, not at all convinced that skin tone/colour is an area we want to be focussing on when it comes to insults. 
Still, not a biggie, i suppose.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

cantsin said:


> you've said up thread you've only come accross the term today, but you're flailing about apparently desperate to squeeze it into whatever vaguely classist / otherwise offensive box you've alighted on next...maybe let it go, and see how it feels a few weeks (aka internet years ) down the line ?


No. Just cos I've only just heard of it doesn't mean I don't think it's really fucking rubbish. If a man's being being a cunt, call him a cunt. Not an old cunt, or a fat cunt, or a red-faced cunt. Just cunt.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> I'm often a bit florid when I emerge from 'spoons; so that's me sorted, then?



"'spoons"


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> "'spoons"


What now?


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fat gammon fuckers.



not to be confused with david cameron...


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

Whether it's racist or not I don't care. But it really is no better than calling someone fat as an insult. It's bollocks.


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 23, 2018)

imposs1904 said:


> Can't we just go back to calling them cunts?



dunno.

not all cunts are tory/ukip types...


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No it fucking isn't.


Yes it is.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes it is.


So if you see a slightly overweight red faced white man walking down the street you can tell something about his worldview from his complexion? What total idiocy.


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## mojo pixy (Oct 23, 2018)

Some people .. in northern Europe quite a lot of people .. and China, Mongolia and Japan, now I think of it .. are ruddy-faced all by themselves, without any anger or a high blood pressure. Apparently such people _are not Gammons_, but the question is, who knows or cares about that?


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## Smoking kills (Oct 23, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> its appropriate - angry blokes - red faced.
> 
> tbh - fuck em. they're cunts.


Snowflake cunts.


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## Kaka Tim (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So if you see a slightly overweight red faced white man walking down the street you can tell something about his worldview from his complexion? What total idiocy.



when has "gammon" been used against anyone other then some right wing shouty bloke? Its  a stereotype about the men who hold those views - not a stereotype of older white men generally.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So if you see a slightly overweight red faced white man walking down the street you can tell something about his worldview from his complexion? What total idiocy.


Don't  you  wag your finger at me like that given you claim to only have heard the term today.  What's idiocy is that you seem to imagine you know more than others when you clearly don't.

How do you think people know the views of the men in those pics of audience members on QT?


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

likesfish said:


> It's not, being a middle age fat angry white racist bloke is not a protected group.
> 
> If you are angry at being called gammon you should probably have a good long hard look at yourself in the mirror.
> 
> nobody's going to be shoving gammon steaks through people letterboxes or screaming it at kids.


And maybe you're right that "it's not racist"...but...if you give it a little thought...it is doing that thing that racists do; placing skin colour at the centre of the pejorative comment/insult.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> when has "gammon" been used against anyone other then some right wing shouty bloke? Its  a stereotype about the men who hold those views - not a stereotype of older white men generally.


Exactly.


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Kaka Tim said:


> when has "gammon" been used against anyone other then some right wing shouty bloke? Its  a stereotype about the men who hold those views - not a stereotype of older white men generally.


Dunno, but given some of what's been said here, I'm beginning to wonder if it's what some folk think when they see me?


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Exactly.


Can a right-wing shouty person of colour be gammon?


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> Dunno, but given some of what's been said here, I'm beginning to wonder if it's what some folk think when they see me?


Are you prone to angry blustering, red faced, right wing rants with racist undertones?


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## Smoking kills (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> Can a right-wing shouty person of colour be gammon?


Blackgammon?


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Are you prone to angry blustering, red faced, right wing rants with racist undertones?


No.
So even if I look like gammon, I'm in the clear, then?


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> No.



No reason to worry then I imagine.


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## mojo pixy (Oct 23, 2018)

It's like
_I love white people .. but I hate gammons_


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## snadge (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes it is.



Directed at their capillaries or their world view? You didn't differentiate? I've seen a lot of the gammon slur lately and the only thing that it provokes to me is that it is being used as a comparison to a person being denigrated to a pig. Maybe a gammon should apply to the police force, social media has become a platform that allows confrontation without repercussion. Enjoy it while it lasts, the internet is heading for huge regulations and corporate interests will dominate.

Using gammon as a descriptive tag is racist, not that I care, the outrage that it causes provides excellent entertainment for me.


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## Humberto (Oct 23, 2018)

As a wise man once said; you cannot serve cod and gammon.


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## Humberto (Oct 23, 2018)

Its not about gammon qualities as much as its a subset of a class, well off Tory voters spouting off. The fucking pricks who run everything. Gammon is not racist, its a revulsion. Of what? I don't quite know. I don't think its classist or racist though. People talk about the Mail and Express, Question Time and so on. A lot of it, and the milieu who's outrage it sustains, is genuinely bonkers. Siege mentality, grievance over fuck all. I think it means petty minded Major Misunderstandings getting wound up. There is an element of it, eg. 'yob culture'. That goes back at least to the eighties. Waves of panic over youth culture. Piss taking is inevitable.

And, to be honest, we live in a country that votes for austerity, and when the 'national debt' increases several fold, votes for them again. I would say a little bit of light-hearted piss-taking isn't beyond the pale. Gammon does refer to the colour of skin, it does NOT call white people one dimensional, a sub-group or a threat to the country. Why? Because a load of wound-up, irate white men in their 50s just look like dicks.


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## dessiato (Oct 23, 2018)

If gammon is an insult targeting only men, what do we call women with similar views?


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## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

It's been said there's a class element to it and it's been said on the other thread that the racist bloke on the Ryanair flight was posh.

I don't see posh racist blokes as being historically oppressed and disadvantaged, so my sympathy for him being called a gammon is pretty much on the low end of the concerned scale.

That said, if the consensus turns out to be that it is unacceptable and all that, I'll reconsider my current position.


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## Baronage-Phase (Oct 23, 2018)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Seems pretty racist to me - you have to white to be gammon, yeah?  I'm not saying using the word is the worst crime ever but it does make you look silly and hypocritical IMO.



Technically you have to be pinkish.


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## Wolveryeti (Oct 23, 2018)

dessiato said:


> If gammon is an insult targeting only men, what do we call women with similar views?


If there's one of them: Gammona
If there's more: Gammone - as per Italian plural nouns


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## Yossarian (Oct 23, 2018)

dessiato said:


> If gammon is an insult targeting only men, what do we call women with similar views?



Katie Hopkins.


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## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

snadge said:


> Using gammon as a descriptive tag is racist, not that I care, the outrage that it causes provides excellent entertainment for me.



No its not , the power structures behind racism that allows one group to oppress another eg white on black do not operate in reverse , as the oppressed group (generally)  will not have the power to discriminate aginst their oppressors.

 This is why so called "reverse racism" called against policies such as affirmative action initiatives is such bollocks and a false right wing trope. 

The use of gammon is offensive and pejorative ceftainly but not racist, anyone who says it it needs to revisit fundamentally what thier idea of racism is and how it operates on a broader power based scale.


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## Struwwelpeter (Oct 23, 2018)

Speaking as a white balding male in my 50s, I do not find gammon offensive to me, because I do not hold the views that go with the term.  It's about having a go at the white male privilege that allows such men to get away with voicing their offensive views without any repercussions.  As Smangus says, it's to do with where the power lies.  Yes, it's offensive, but I find the views held by gammons to be offensive, so fuck 'em.


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## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2018)

I think gammon is about the same as snowflake on the insult scale.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> No its not , the power structures behind racism that allows one group to oppress another eg white on black do not operate in reverse , as the oppressed group (generally)  will not have the power to discriminate aginst their oppressors.



Yeah. There’s nothing racist about grown south Asian men thinking white girls are ‘sluts’ for dressing immodestly and using that as justification to rape them.


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## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yeah. There’s nothing racist about grown south Asian men thinking white girls are ‘sluts’ for dressing immodestly and using that as justification to rape them.


'Imams promote grooming rings', Muslim leader claims


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## Rob Ray (Oct 23, 2018)

Indeed, that's just straightforward extreme levels of violent misogyny being acted on, the same behaviour which has happened since before Britain was even a name.

There might be something racist in linking that sort of dangerous social conservatism exclusively to South Asian men while ignoring the fact that rape as a phenomenon, almost always using the same tropes, is and always has been in the vast majority committed by white guys with no south Asian links whatsoever.

That's the sort of thing folks can do when all the major institutional structures in our society allow for targeted vilification of minority groups which then have minimal leverage to defend themselves though I guess.


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## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yeah. There’s nothing racist about grown south Asian men thinking white girls are ‘sluts’ for dressing immodestly and using that as justification to rape them.



You're absolutely right, its the result of worst form of cultural sexism and predjudice, not racism.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> You're absolutely right, its the result of worst form of cultural sexism and predjudice, not racism.



Culture and ‘race’ are inextricably linked though. It’s the equivalent of our (white) racists fixating on the wearing of hijab, which I doubt you wouldn’t argue isn’t a racist position.


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## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> No its not , the power structures behind racism that allows one group to oppress another eg white on black do not operate in reverse , as the oppressed group (generally)  will not have the power to discriminate aginst their oppressors.
> 
> This is why so called "reverse racism" called against policies such as affirmative action initiatives is such bollocks and a false right wing trope.
> 
> The use of gammon is offensive and pejorative ceftainly but not racist, anyone who says it it needs to revisit fundamentally what thier idea of racism is and how it operates on a broader power based scale.


Agreed, but the point troubling me about the use of the term is that it is a pejorative dependent on skin colour (race?).
As such, I don't think its use represents the smartest way to challenge those who do harbour prejudice based on that very basis. Someone up thread did use the term 'hypocritical' and I think those using the term 'Gammon' to categorise racists/bigots do lay themselves open to that accusation. _If any of the 'gammon' _were smart enough to see the irony of calling out their racism on the basis of their colour, I'm sure they'd be the first to say that it therefore (in some warped way) legitimises their prejudice.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Culture and ‘race’ are inextricably linked though. It’s the equivalent of our (white) racists fixating on the wearing of hijab, which I doubt you wouldn’t argue isn’t a racist position.



even if racism against white people existed what is the political utility of calling asian predators racist? it's a gift to the far right and an obfuscation of the sexual politics involved


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> even if racism against white people existed what is the political utility of calling asian predators racist? it's a gift to the far right and an obfuscation of the sexual politics involved



Because people can see right through those who are politically inconsistent.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

what is politically inconsistent? not singling out offenders of a certain background, downplaying sexism in favour of racism?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> what is politically inconsistent? not singling out offenders of a certain background, downplaying sexism in favour of racism?



Are objections against the wearing of hijab racist? According to you that downplays the sexism (I’d argue it can be both). 
Asian men calling white girls ‘sluts’ for dressing immodestly is therefore also both racist and sexist. The inconsistency is to argue one is racist but not the other.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are objections against the wearing of hijab racist? According to you that downplays the sexism (I’d argue it can be both).
> Asian men calling white girls ‘sluts’ for dressing immodestly is therefore also both racist and sexist. The inconsistency is to argue one is racist but not the other.



I see, you don't know what racism means.



Magnus McGinty said:


> Are objections against the wearing of hijab racist?



they usually are when coming from white people. context is a thing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I see, you don't know what racism means.
> 
> they usually are when coming from white people. context is a thing.



Well if you’re of the view that only white people can be racist then your logic makes sense. Otherwise... 

And far from handing something to the right I think what’s being handed to them is giving them the space to appear to be the only ones saying the blindingly obvious.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Presumably blowing up a concert of mostly white kids isn’t racist either.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Thought thread was about gammon being racist or not


----------



## ddraig (Oct 23, 2018)

Can't stop Magnus on his hobby horse


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

ddraig said:


> Can't stop Magnus on his hobby horse



Can brown people be fascist yes/no? 

If yes then they can use racism as a means to divide people the same as white fascists do. 
If no, well that’s too far down the rabbit hole I think.


----------



## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Presumably blowing up a concert of mostly white kids isn’t racist either.



ISIS and sympathisers blow up plently of Arab, Asian and black people too, all around the world. Maybe you hadn't noticed this in your obviously thorough research into Racism , it's meaning, effects and causes....


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

Maybe it's brown and black people who are the most racist of all...


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well if you’re of the view that only white people can be racist then your logic makes sense. Otherwise...
> 
> And far from handing something to the right I think what’s being handed to them is giving them the space to appear to be the only ones saying the blindingly obvious.



you think racism is a bad attitude instead of a material reality. and you're arguing we should adopt right wing arguments to appease the free tommy crowd?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> you think racism is a bad attitude instead of a material reality. and you're arguing we should adopt right wing arguments to appease the free tommy crowd?



I’m arguing that it’s more useful to point out the similarities between white fascists and non white ones than to simply pretend it can only exist for one of those two groups.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m arguing that it’s more useful to point out the similarities between white fascists and non white ones than to simply pretend it can only exist for one of those two groups.



are asian sexual predators fascists? what about the white ones?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It's a pejorative term for white people often used by some PoC, particularly youngsters. Like _honky_ or _cracker_.



Can't remember the last time I went down the shops without a horde of brown youth yelling 'honky' at me. 

Oh no wait, it was every time. Every single day of my life I've not been subjected to abuse because of the colour of my skin. If that applies to you too, which it absolutely does, then I reckon probably shut the fuck up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m arguing that it’s more useful to point out the similarities between white fascists and non white ones than to simply pretend it can only exist for one of those two groups.


yeh. they're fascists. how does that advance things?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

ddraig said:


> Can't stop Magnus on his hobby horse


ride a cock horse to banbury cross


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Can't remember the last time I went down the shops without a horde of brown youth yelling 'honky' at me.
> 
> Oh no wait, it was every time. Every single day of my life I've not been subjected to abuse because of the colour of my skin. If that applies to you too, which it absolutely does, then I reckon probably shut the fuck up.


Oh dear.

I'm with Magnus on this. Attempts to define racism as something that only people from certain groups can do are massively unhelpful and require some pretty drastic mental gymnastics. Why do it?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> I'm with Magnus on this. Attempts to define racism as something that only people from certain groups can do are massively unhelpful and require some pretty drastic mental gymnastics. Why do it?



colonialism is a thing


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> are asian sexual predators fascists? what about the white ones?



The fascism argument pertains to the bombing of the concert.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The fascism argument pertains to the bombing of the concert.



the terrorist was an ethnic supremacist who killed out of hatred of white people?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> colonialism is a thing


yeh but rhythm is a dancer


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> colonialism is a thing


Sure. And you can define racism very simply without denying that. Your definition won't contain all aspects of the processes that produce racism, but why should it? Too much work for one word to do.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. they're fascists. how does that advance things?



As part of a wider antifascist argument put towards those who may be attracted by those ideas. Surely this is obvious stuff?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> I'm with Magnus on this. Attempts to define racism as something that only people from certain groups can do are massively unhelpful and require some pretty drastic mental gymnastics. Why do it?



I'm of the opinion that prejudice against the ruling majority of the population doesn't count as racism, because it doesn't derive from systemic oppression in the same way.

But that's not what I was getting at. My point was simply that Spymaster is full of shit. Nobody is hurling abuse at him in the street because he's white. If people are hurling abuse at him in the street, it's because they've fucking met him.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

Everything bad is fascism.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Can't remember the last time I went down the shops without a horde of brown youth yelling 'honky' at me.
> 
> Oh no wait, it was every time. Every single day of my life I've not been subjected to abuse because of the colour of my skin. If that applies to you too, which it absolutely does, then I reckon probably shut the fuck up.


 Don't be a plank, Frank.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm of the opinion that prejudice against the ruling majority of the population doesn't count as racism, because it doesn't derive from systemic oppression in the same way.
> 
> But that's not what I was getting at. My point was simply that Spymaster is full of shit. Nobody is hurling abuse at him in the street because he's white. If people are hurling abuse at him in the street, it's because they've fucking met him.


Is Spy 'white'?


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

I’ve only just skimmed this thread, but apparently it’s still ok for me to contribute as I think I’ve caught the gist of the argument.

So, I got two unsmoked gammon steaks at the weekend cos they were sort of on an offer (Waitrose no less...) Ms 747 - veggie- is away so was going to do them with chips and peas for young master A320 and me. Am I a racist now if I eat them, or would it be more racist not to eat them?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm of the opinion that prejudice against the ruling majority of the population doesn't count as racism, because it doesn't derive from systemic oppression in the same way.
> 
> But that's not what I was getting at. My point was simply that Spymaster is full of shit. Nobody is hurling abuse at him in the street because he's white. *If people are hurling abuse at him in the street, it's because they've fucking met him.*


Something you clearly haven't done.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> Is Spy 'white'?


Frank's tanked.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 23, 2018)

you should stalk the photos thread SF, that way you know what everyone looks like.


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> ...
> 
> But that's not what I was getting at. My point was simply that Spymaster is full of shit. Nobody is hurling abuse at him in the street because he's white. If people are hurling abuse at him in the street, it's because they've fucking met him.



He may be full of shit sometimes ( or his trousers are) but Spy isn’t white.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> you should stalk the photos thread SF, that way you know what everyone looks like.



Too many dongs, though


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

If I have made inaccurate assumptions about anyone's ethnicity I apologise unreservedly. 

No witty quip to go here, genuinely feel like a right stupid twat rn. Frank done fucked up.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> I'm with Magnus on this. Attempts to define racism as something that only people from certain groups can do are massively unhelpful and require some pretty drastic mental gymnastics. Why do it?


It gives cover to people who like being cunts.


----------



## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The fascism argument pertains to the bombing of the concert.



Carried out by a death cult - ISIS that longs to destroy everything that does not agree with it's world view, remarkably equitable that aim. Not racist, but prejudiced, racism is a specific form of prejudice, something you don't want to understand. Anyone can be predjudiced, not every predjudice can be racist due to the power, or lack of it behind that. This is the distinction.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm of the opinion that prejudice against the ruling majority of the population doesn't count as racism, because it doesn't derive from systemic oppression in the same way.



I think that's basically sound but we move around the world. I find myself part of an ethnic and religious minority in Spain, systematically oppressed to a tiny extent. Can I sound off about Spanish people when I'm here but have to shut up the moment I arrive in UK? Or do I represent the ruling majority at a European or world scale?

I think Gammon is a silly form of attack on angry white men, it gives them ammunition.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the terrorist was an ethnic supremacist who killed out of hatred of white people?



To create a negative environment for Muslims to create division to further a fascist strategy.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I think Gammon is a silly form of attack on angry white men, it gives them ammunition.



Grenades or pineapples?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> To create a negative environment for Muslims to create division to further a fascist strategy.



ok, so ISIS is fascist, I can accept that. wtf does that have to do with white people?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> Carried out by a death cult - ISIS that longs to destroy everything that does not agree with it's world view, remarkably equitable that aim. Not racist, but prejudiced, racism is a specific form of prejudice, something you don't want to understand. Anyone can be predjudiced, not every predjudice can be racist due to the power, or lack of it behind that. This is the distinction.


Who decided that? Was there a meeting? Racism is prejudice against a person or people based on the racial group the person or people is/are perceived to belong to. It has a pretty simple definition. When was that changed?

Whatever the reason for the prejudice, if you're prejudiced towards particular racial groups, that is racial prejudice, no, and therefore racism? What else could it be?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ok, so ISIS is fascist, I can accept that. wtf does that have to do with white people?



The bombing targets you mean?


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The bombing targets you mean?



As pointed out before, ISIS target Muslims as well. Probably more Muslims than other victims.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The bombing targets you mean?



some of them are white. are they targeted for their skin colour?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

was 9/11 racist?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I think Gammon is a silly form of attack on angry white men, it gives them ammunition.



I actually agree on this point. I just don't think it's racist. If it specifically applies to white people that's probably because it's generally only white people, in the UK at least, who feel socially entitled enough to spout mean-spirited rubbish about everyone else and expect to be taken seriously and to not have their views questioned or challenged.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> who feel socially entitled enough to spout mean-spirited rubbish about everyone else and expect to be taken seriously and to not have their views questioned or challenged.


You have met Spymaster then.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Ffs. A lot of point missing going on here. The original post (of mine on another thread) pointed out that_ Gammon_ is currently used by some Asian kids to pejoratively refer to white people, any white people, and that I have given one of my nephews a bollocking for using it in that way. In that context it IS racist, notwithstanding that it may not be when used in other contexts.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Ffs. A lot of point missing going on here. The original post (of mine on another thread) pointed out that Gammon is currently used by some Asian kids to pejoratively refer to white people, any white people, and that I have given one of my nephews a bollocking for using it in that way. In that context it IS racist, notwithstanding that it may not be when used in other contexts.


I think it's still an open question whether the 'racism' is the most useful term for that kind of prejudice (i.e. against the dominant culture).

Is it racist when black people say white people don't season their food?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Ffs. A lot of point missing going on here. The original post (of mine on another thread) pointed out that Gammon is currently used by some Asian kids to pejoratively refer to white people, any white people, and that I have given one of my nephews a bollocking for using it in that way. In that context it IS racist, notwithstanding that it may not be when used in other contexts.




oh god - dont go around introducing notions like "nuance" and "depends on the context" ....


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 23, 2018)

Santino said:


> I think it's still an open question whether the 'racism' is the most useful term for that kind of prejudice (i.e. against the dominant culture).
> 
> Is it racist when black people say white people don't season their food?



The person who started a similar thread avoided the 'racist' word 

https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...rm-for-red-faced-right-wing-white-men.358557/


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Ffs. A lot of point missing going on here. The original post (of mine on another thread) pointed out that Gammon is currently used by some Asian kids to pejoratively refer to white people, any white people, and that I have given one of my nephews a bollocking for using it in that way. In that context it IS racist, notwithstanding that it may not be when used in other contexts.



If white people use it to take the piss out of other white people, it's not racist (I think). Or at least, not intended to be.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

Santino said:


> You have met Spymaster then.



I'll say this for him, he definitely doesn't post on here in the expectation of not being challenged by anyone.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 23, 2018)

Thread needs a poll.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> As pointed out before, ISIS target Muslims as well. Probably more Muslims than other victims.



_Hitler wasn’t racist because he also targeted white people._


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> some of them are white. are they targeted for their skin colour?



If you want to turn the majority white population against Muslims then a sound strategy would be to bomb their kids.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> _Hitler wasn’t racist because he also targeted white people._



No, _you're _Hitler.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> _Hitler wasn’t racist because he also targeted white people._



Eh?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> was 9/11 racist?


Was the Bologna railway station bombing racist, or the mass bombing of Guernica or the Oklahoma bombing?  No but they were carried out by fascists.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If you want to turn the majority white population against Muslims then a sound strategy would be to bomb their kids.



And if you want to turn a majority of Muslims against Muslims would a sound strategy be to bomb their kids as well? As happens in other countries...

Isis kills more Muslims than anyone else

Muslims 'absolutely' the group most victimized by global terrorism, researchers say


----------



## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> _Hitler wasn’t racist because he also targeted white people._



Dr Jazzzz alert...


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Santino said:


> I think it's still an open question whether the 'racism' is the most useful term for that kind of prejudice (i.e. against the dominant culture).


Well if you accept that racism can be levelled at people of a dominant culture, and you'd be stupid not to, then that's exactly what it is. In that context it is a term of mockery based on the colour of someone's skin. How's that not racist?


----------



## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

Anyway I like my gammon with chips a pineapple ring and fried egg.


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> If white people use it to take the piss out of other white people, it's not racist (I think). Or at least, not intended to be.


So could it be our ( I am white, also Male, 50s overweight ruddy complexion sometimes ) G word?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> So could it be our ( I am white, also Male, 50s overweight ruddy complexion sometimes ) G word?


yeh Get out more


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh Get out more


Gammonist


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Ffs. A lot of point missing going on here. The original post (of mine on another thread) pointed out that_ Gammon_ is currently used by some Asian kids to pejoratively refer to white people, any white people, and that I have given one of my nephews a bollocking for using it in that way. In that context it IS racist, notwithstanding that it may not be when used in other contexts.



You called a woman who filmed a tirade of racist abuse towards shop workers, a fuckwit, for using the word gammon in her tweet. Do you reckon that racist fucker would be offended by that? Would he have thought that as racist towards him? I doubt he fucking would to be fair, whilst he was frothing at the mouth shouting & swearing for blacks to fuck off back home. 

This whole thread has come about due to that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

Nation of Islam is a movement that was set up in the US and is clearly a reaction to the vicious racism black people were suffering there. But that doesn't mean it isn't itself a racist ideology. When it classifies people by race and labels certain races 'devils', it is being racist. It is a racist reaction to racism. What else could it be?


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> So could it be our ( I am white, also Male, 50s overweight ruddy complexion sometimes ) G word?



In a ham-fisted kinda way, maybe


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Is punching someone who has just punched you the same thing? A reaction to violence is different to that initial violence. Not that hard a concept to understand, surely?

And a term based around someones expressed political viewpoint (which is where the term came from) is a tad different to discrimination based _purely_ on someones skin colour.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You called a woman who filmed a tirade of racist abuse towards shop workers, a fuckwit, for using the word gammon in her tweet. Do you reckon that racist fucker would be offended by that? Would he have thought that as racist towards him? I doubt he fucking would to be fair, whilst he was frothing at the mouth shouting & swearing for blacks to fuck off back home.


I was pointing out the hypocrisy of a young Asian woman calling a white bloke a racist gammon.

Had she called him a racist cunt/fuckwit/something else, she'd have had my wholehearted support. Whether or not the bloke would have been offended is neither here nor there.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Santino said:


> Is it racist when black people say white people don't season their food?



Or that white people smell like wet dogs that have come in from the rain then lay in front of the fire for a bit?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> Or that white people smell like wet dogs that have come in from the rain then lay in front of the fire for a bit?



That's a best a half-truth.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Ranbay said:


> Thread needs a poll.



A poll, a troll and a bacon roll 
That's the way we spell UK right on


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Is punching someone who has just punched you the same thing? A reaction to violence is different to that initial violence. Not that hard a concept to understand, surely?.


There can be many different reactions to an action. If your reaction to racial prejudice is itself a form of racial prejudice, that's racial prejudice. That doesn't deny anything about the causes of racism or the forms it takes in the world, but you need to perform some rather weird mental gymnastics to defend the idea that Nation of Islam's belief system is not a racist belief system. Why would you even want to?

Turn that on its head: Nation of Islam is not racist because of the power dynamics of the USA. Therefore it is possible to hate a whole group of people because of their race without it being racist. It is possible to hate an individual because of the racial group you think they belong to without it being racist. That doesn't work, does it?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There can be many different reactions to an action. If your reaction to racial prejudice is itself a form of racial prejudice, that's racial prejudice. That doesn't deny anything about the causes of racism or the forms it takes in the world, but you need to perform some rather weird mental gymnastics to defend the idea that Nation of Islam's belief system is not a racist belief system. Why would you even want to?
> 
> Turn that on its head: Nation of Islam is not racist because of the power dynamics of the USA. Therefore it is possible to hate a whole group of people because of their race without it being racist. It is possible to hate an individual because of the racial group you think they belong to without it being racist. That doesn't work, does it?


It's a rather simplistic description of NoI, but, even that withstanding, a reaction to racism is different to the initial racism. To say they are the same thing (which 'they're all racist' does) is mistaken, and does nothing to counter racism or NoI's prejudices.

The woman who slaps her abusive husband, who has beaten her up for years. Is she a domestic abuser, same as him?


----------



## Edie (Oct 23, 2018)

I like the term of abuse gammon. I think it’s funny as fuck and pokes fun at power.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> Dr Jazzzz alert...



Surely it’s blindingly obvious I was placing the same sentiment in a different context to make a point.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> It's a rather simplistic description of NoI,.


Is it? Have you read their creation myths? 

I'm not pretending I can solve the problem of racism in the world here. But neither can you with your definitions. And I think your definitions are massively unhelpful.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's a best a half-truth.



You mean like a dog that's come out of the rain but not lay in front of a fire?
Or is just laying in front of a fire?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> You mean like a dog that's come out of the rain but not lay in front of a fire?
> Or is just laying in front of a fire?



More like a dog that's been out in some mild drizzle, lying near a radiator that's not been on for very long.


----------



## chilango (Oct 23, 2018)

Apologies if I'm repeating someone else, but I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not sure I want to...but there certainly seems to be a class element.

Complicated because it's not about relationship to the means of production but about generational ideas of cultural capital.

...and ultimately (as I said last time) I'm less worried about what "gammon" is saying about _them_ and more worried about what it saying about _us_.

But then I'm not sure there is an _us_ - in practice - at the moment.

And that's the problem.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Edie said:


> I like the term of abuse gammon. I think it’s funny as fuck and pokes fun at power.



Good point. Unlike the ugly term "chav", where that's used to denigrate people because of their class. Gammon could refer to those who can get away with their racist shtick and in some cases be elevated to alt-right heroes, politicians or celebrities with ever increasing twitter/online support. Whereas the victim of racist abuse fades into obscurity or is subjected to tirades of whataboutery.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> The woman who slaps her abusive husband, who has beaten her up for years. Is she a domestic abuser, same as him?


No, but that's missing the point. He's been violent to her and she's been violent to him. Her violence may well have been justifiable but it was still violence.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

chilango said:


> Apologies if I'm repeating do done else, but I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not sure I want to but there certainly seems to be a class element.
> 
> Complicated because it's not about relationship to the means of production but about generational ideas of cultural capital.
> 
> ...



If you mean class as in the guy who subjected a fellow passenger to racist abuse, apparently he's a posh dude.


----------



## chilango (Oct 23, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> If you mean class as in the guy who subjected a fellow passenger to racist abuse, apparently he's a posh dude.



No. That's exactly what I don't mean.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

I think if you have to make reference to skin colour, you're on dodgy ground and liable to play into the hands of the far right.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

chilango said:


> No. That's exactly what I don't mean.



Ok, my bad then. I don't understand cultural capital, if that's the focus.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> No, but that's missing the point. He's been violent to her and she's been violent to him. Her violence may well have been justifiable but it was still violence.


No, that IS the point. What she does is not, in any meaningful sense, domestic abuse, despite superficial similarities. Same applies to gammon,  the similarities are just superficial.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, that IS the point. What she does is not, in any meaningful sense, domestic abuse, despite superficial similarities. Same applies to gammon,  the similarities are just superficial.


I agree it's not domestic abuse but again, that's not the point. If a black guy was racially abused by an Indian and he responded by calling him a paki, would that not be racist?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Is it? Have you read their creation myths?
> 
> I'm not pretending I can solve the problem of racism in the world here. But neither can you with your definitions. And I think your definitions are massively unhelpful.


I'm not at all sure how many modern NoI followers wholly agree with Elijah Mohammed's nonsense. Overwhelmingly, they are just reacting to racism, from white people. 

I haven't actually offered any 'definition', by the way, so I'm not sure how they can be unhelpful.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, that IS the point. What she does is not, in any meaningful sense, domestic abuse, despite superficial similarities. Same applies to gammon,  the similarities are just superficial.


So it is possible to be prejudiced against someone because of their race and not be being racist? I really don't think that is in any way helpful.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I disagree. If a black guy was racially abused by an Indian and he responded by calling him a paki, would that not be racist?


So she is a domestic abuser?

Ignoring the aspect that power plays in these circumstances makes these 'definitions' all but worthless.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> I'm not at all sure how many modern NoI followers wholly agree with Elijah Mohammed's nonsense. Overwhelmingly, they are just reacting to racism, from white people.
> 
> I haven't actually offered any 'definition', by the way, so I'm not sure how they can be unhelpful.


Yes you have. Your whole line of posting is suggesting that someone from a minority racial group cannot be racist towards someone from a majority racial group. cos power.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So it is possible to be prejudiced against someone because of their race and not be being racist? I really don't think that is in any way helpful.


It's quiet simple, racism is more than mere prejudice.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> So she is a domestic abuser?


No, apologies, you missed my edit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So it is possible to be prejudiced against someone because of their race and not be being racist? I really don't think that is in any way helpful.


you wouldn't


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes you have. Your whole line of posting is suggesting that someone from a minority racial group cannot be racist towards someone from a majority racial group. cos power.


So now I've 'suggested', not 'defined'  you really are incredibly loose with your definitions, and it is THAT which is unhelpful.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> It's quiet simple, racism is more than mere prejudice.


If a person can be prejudiced towards entire races without being racist, I would suggest that it is very far from simple. Sound mightily confused to me. And unhelpful.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I agree it's not domestic abuse but again, that's not the point. If a black guy was racially abused by an Indian and he responded by calling him a paki, would that not be racist?



Yep. Seen it happen a few times during my time in London. Once to a friend of mine, who was called a monkey by an Indian woman. Friend didn't do any better by telling her to go back to India


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> So now I've 'suggested', not 'defined'  you really are incredibly loose with your definitions, and it is THAT which is unhelpful.


Now you're just being disingenuous.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 23, 2018)

It's not racist, it's understandable but just a bit shit. The noble task of insulting reactionary cunts is undermined once you mix a reference to the insultee's ethnicity, gender, age, nationality, physical appearance or characteristics, sexuality, etc etc, with your insult.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If a person can be prejudiced towards entire races without being racist, I would suggest that it is very far from simple. Sound mightily confused to me. And unhelpful.


Naah, what is unhelpful is an analysis that doesn't look at the the social and power structures in play, that abstracts everything out as if all circumstances are the same. Which leads us straight to the useless 'why can't we all be nice to each other?'


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Naah, what is unhelpful is an analysis that doesn't look at the the social and power structures in play, that abstracts everything out as if all circumstances are the same. Which leads us straight to the useless 'why can't we all be nice to each other?'


the ultimate conclusion to every argument littlebabyjesus unhelpfully advances


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Naah, what is unhelpful is an analysis that doesn't look at the the social and power structures in play, that abstracts everything out as if all circumstances are the same. Which leads us straight to the useless 'why can't we all be nice to each other?'



This suggests that only white people have access to those power structures by virtue of being white. I thought you did class politics?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Naah, what is unhelpful is an analysis that doesn't look at the the social and power structures in play, that abstracts everything out as if all circumstances are the same. Which leads us straight to the useless 'why can't we all be nice to each other?'


And where have I denied an analysis. You seem to want the whole thing to be encapsulated in one two-syllable word. It can't be.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And where have I denied an analysis. You seem to want the whole thing to be encapsulated in one two-syllable word. It can't be.



Rhubarb?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Whilst Saudi are in the news too.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This suggests that only white people have access to those power structures by virtue of being white. I thought you did class politics?


I have no idea where you get that suggestion from. We're not talking about individuals though,


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> I'm not at all sure how many modern NoI followers wholly agree with Elijah Mohammed's nonsense. Overwhelmingly, they are just reacting to racism, from white people.
> 
> I haven't actually offered any 'definition', by the way, so I'm not sure how they can be unhelpful.



Eh? The modern NoI has teamed up with the well known anti-racists of the Church of Scientology. 

NoI are scum. Racist scum and all.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And where have I denied an analysis. You seem to want the whole thing to be encapsulated in one two-syllable word. It can't be.


This makes no sense. I'm the one insisting we need to add a power dynamic in as well, you are the one reducing racism to simple prejudice. Completely contradictory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> Rhubarb?


perhaps two monosyllabic words combining to make one pungent phrase

one of them being what bernard cornwell calls the efficacious word


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> This makes no sense. I'm the one insisting we need to add a power dynamic in as well, you are the one reducing racism to simple prejudice. Completely contradictory.


No I'm not. I'm saying that trying to include the reasons why people are racist into the definition of the word 'racism' both doesn't work and is massively unhelpful.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So it is possible to be prejudiced against someone because of their race and not be being racist? I really don't think that is in any way helpful.


Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women?

That's the equivalent of the difference people are defending. Racism doesn't just mean what the etymology of the word means: in this context it's specifically about historical Western attitudes towards non-Europeans.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No I'm not. I'm saying that trying to include the reasons why people are racist into the definition of the word 'racism' both doesn't work and is massively unhelpful.


So that woman, referred to earlier, is a domestic abuser?  This is your logic.


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps two monosyllabic words combining to make one pungent phrase
> 
> one of them being what bernard cornwell calls the efficacious word


I never saw you as a Sharpe / Uthred fan...

Book by cover n that.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> So that woman, referred to earlier, is a domestic abuser?  This is your logic.


No. You're conflating the offering of violence with domestic abuse. Violence in self defence or after extreme provocation is not (necessarily) domestic abuse. But it is violence.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

Santino said:


> Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women?
> 
> That's the equivalent of the difference people are defending. Racism doesn't just mean what the etymology of the word means: in this context it's specifically about historical Western attitudes towards non-Europeans.


I was waiting for this one. 

So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I was waiting for this one.
> 
> So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?


I was waiting for this one.

Clearly a woman can belittle a man without being sexist. 1-0 to me.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

Forget about trying to work out what words mean and pay attention to what actually happens.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I was waiting for this one.
> 
> So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?


If a woman tries to sexually harass a man, can she depend on a society-wide culture of oppression to help keep her out of trouble? 'Yes' or 'no' answer please.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> No. You're conflating the offering of violence with domestic abuse. Violence in self defence or after extreme provocation is not (necessarily) domestic abuse. But it is violence.


And a prejudiced statement is prejudiced. But it isn’t necessarily racist.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I was waiting for this one.
> 
> So say a rich woman bellitles a man who works for her, she can't be sexist?



I had that when I worked in a now defunct supermarket chain store in Tulse Hill. I don't believe she was being sexist, just being arrogant and using her position as the boss to make my working life miserable. Not saying that female to male sexism doesn't happen. It does.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Whilst Saudi are in the news too.


But the discussion is not about Saudi Arabia it is about the UK and the UK power dynamic is the relevant one. Context matters. 

I've said it before but I think it makes more sense to to talk about who can experience racism rather than who can or cannot be racist. As a white English  man I really don't think I can be a victim of racism living in England. To me at least racism implies more than just being called a nasty word it includes being structural disadvantaged by the power structures in society because of a perceived race. For me being called gammon* has no more 'weight' to it than being insulted because I am fat or wear glasses, less in fact.


*It's still a shit term.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

There is no history or context or structure. Just individuals doing bad things that we can easily lump together into nice neat categories.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> I had that when I worked in a now defunct supermarket chain store in Tulse Hill. I don't believe she was being sexist, just being arrogant and using her position as the boss to make my working life miserable. Not saying that female to male sexism doesn't happen. It does.


Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women? That was the actual question.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> And a prejudiced statement is prejudiced. But it isn’t necessarily racist.


No, because there are non-racial forms of prejudice. A racist statement however, is racist.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Santino said:


> Can women be sexist towards men in the same way as men can towards women? That was the actual question.



Well, the whole gamut of male sexism towards females involves power-tripping, sexual assault, casual misogyny, commenting on how she looks/dresses etc, ganging up with fellow sexists to undermine women, incel stuff and much more that I can possibly list.

No, I don't think women can be the exact same purveyors of sexism in the way that men do. But I know variants of it happens. My example above was relatively minor. I was later bullied by a colleague for years in another job. But that wasn't sexism - just ignorance, general nastiness with a dash of racism thrown in for good measure.

Some people just get off on the whole power-trip, regardless of gender, class, race, religion etc.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

emanymton said:


> For me being called gammon* has no more 'weight' to it than being insulted because I am fat or wear glasses, less in fact.
> 
> 
> *It's still a shit term.


I think that's only because the term has only relatively recently been co-opted into youth-speak as a racial brickbat. If, and as, it develops in that context it'll carry more weight.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

emanymton said:


> But the discussion is not about Saudi Arabia it is about the UK and the UK power dynamic is the relevant one. Context matters.
> 
> I've said it before but I think it makes more sense to to talk about who can experience racism rather than who can or cannot be racist. As a white English  man I really don't think I can be a victim of racism living in England. To me at least racism implies more than just being called a nasty word it includes being structural disadvantaged by the power structures in society because of a perceived race. For me being called gammon* has no more 'weight' to it than being insulted because I am fat or wear glasses, less in fact.
> 
> ...



But there’s power dynamics beneath the state vs citizen one. We’ve moved on from grooming gangs but that’s the perfect example of a power dynamic that doesn’t fit with your analysis.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

It could equally be landlord and tenant or employer and employee.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> No, because there are non-racial forms of prejudice. A racist statement however, is racist.


You denied that violence, in a domestic setting, is necessarily domestic violence (quite rightly), but somehow any prejudiced statement that involves a statement on race IS racist. Why the difference?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> You denied that violence, in a domestic setting, is necessarily domestic violence (quite rightly), but somehow any prejudiced statement that involves a statement on race IS racist.


I don't think I did. I think a _racially prejudiced_ statement IS racist. Not sure where you're trying to go with this.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think I did. I think a _racially prejudiced_ statement IS racist. Not sure where you're trying to go with this.


Try thinking a bit harder then. Racism isn't JUST prejudice.

Necessary and sufficient conditions and all that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Racism isn't JUST prejudice..


Correct. There are many forms of prejudice. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race.

In my head, and I reckon the heads of most people, the terms 'racial prejudice' and 'racism' are synonyms.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Try thinking a bit harder then. Racism isn't JUST prejudice.
> 
> Necessary and sufficient conditions and all that.


Give an example of a racially prejudiced statement that's not racist.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Santino said:


> If a woman tries to sexually harass a man, can she depend on a society-wide culture of oppression to help keep her out of trouble? 'Yes' or 'no' answer please.



Yep, insofar as men are expected to be "strong" so complaining of sexual harassment by a woman may be seen as weak.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Give an example of a racially prejudiced statement that's not racist.


Fucking Gammon


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Correct. There are many forms of prejudice. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race.
> 
> In my head, and I reckon the heads of most people, the terms 'racial prejudice' and 'racism' are synonyms.


Many people probably think 'the market' and 'capitalism' are synonyms. They're not tho. For reasons stated earlier.


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 23, 2018)

This thread recalls a lot of 'chav' threads from c.2004 on. 

Throwing in my own view, I would say 'gammon' is more a demographic than a race.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Fucking Gammon


The term Spymaster has just told you he has heard from the mouths of Asian kids as a generalised derogatory term for white people?


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 23, 2018)

> *Racism*
> _noun_
> 
> prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior



The way in which the majority of people understand racism is this line as applied solely to the act of prejudicial behaviour against someone of a different race (incidentally largely disqualifying "gammon" as it's used primarily by white liberals if Twitter is any guide). Which okay fine, meaning is what people make it, but misses a chunk of situational factors which make quite a big difference to the conversation around its use, importance and impact.

The basic secondary analysis here is that in any society where you are the disempowered minority it is not practicable to enforce prejudicial belief in any sustained way. Yes you can be a prejudiced prick, you can believe what you like, you can even in some circumstances bully people (eg. if you have an individual school with a black majority in a mostly white country) but that doesn't mean you will ever be able to make significant inroads into how the dominant majority is regarded or treated on a day-to-day basis. And it's that power which actually gives racism meaning. I've never been spat at in the street for being white and if I was it'd be such a shocking event that it'd make a page lead if the press picked up on it. It would be a racist event in popular parlance but for me, it would likely never happen again and thus is not part of any sustained social culture or politically-indulged policy that systematically attacks me.

Personally I think the argument that "you can't be racist if you're white" is a bit self-defeating because (like the use of the word "privilege" when applied to male rough sleepers) _common_ use and understanding of the term encourages rejection of the actually quite important core of the critique. But it's not as ludicrous as some people are suggesting here.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

Rob Ray said:


> The way in which the majority of people understand racism is this line as applied solely to the act of prejudicial behaviour against someone of a different race (incidentally largely disqualifying "gammon" as it's used primarily by white liberals if Twitter is any guide). Which okay fine, meaning is what people make it, but misses a chunk of situational factors which make quite a big difference to the conversation around its use, importance and impact.
> 
> The basic secondary analysis here is that in any society where you are the disempowered minority it is not practicable to enforce prejudicial belief in any sustained way. Yes you can be a prejudiced prick, you can believe what you like, you can even in some circumstances bully people (eg. if you have an individual school with a black majority in a mostly white country) but that doesn't mean you will ever be able to make significant inroads into how the dominant majority is regarded or treated on a day-to-day basis. And it's that power which actually gives racism meaning. I've never been spat at in the street for being white and if I was it'd be such a shocking event that it'd make a page lead if the press picked up on it. It would be a racist event in popular parlance but for me, it would likely never happen again and thus is not part of any sustained social culture or politically-indulged policy that systematically attacks me.
> 
> Personally I think the argument that "you can't be racist if you're white" is a bit self-defeating because (like the use of the word "privilege" when applied to male rough sleepers) _common_ use and understanding of the term encourages rejection of the actually quite important core of the critique. But it's not as ludicrous as some people are suggesting here.


It's patronising as hell to try to dictate to people who can and cannot be racist. And just plain wrong-headed tbh - it doesn't work. You think Spymaster or I don't fully understand the structural analysis you're presenting here? Of course we bloody do.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 23, 2018)

I think you're both doing a bit about how down-to-earth your approach to language is and how silly your opponents are rather than being particularly constructive.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Fucking Gammon


So calling a white person a gammon as a racial insult isn't racist? 

It's based on skin colour and used as an insult. How the fuck is that not racist?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

come on this is ridiculous

racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial. our modern ideas about race and whiteness (racism) are products of european and american colonial divisions of labour. a dictionary definition of racism isn't good enough.


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So calling a white person a gammon as a racial insult isn't racist?



Depends on your definition of racism and what it entails in practice. The basic discrepancy in this thread is that popular and more academic definitions of "racism" are clashing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> come on this is ridiculous
> 
> racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial. our modern ideas about race and whiteness (racism) are products of european and american colonial divisions of labour. a dictionary definition of racism isn't good enough.



What about Ireland? They were under the colonial boot for long enough.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial.


Wtf?


----------



## Rob Ray (Oct 23, 2018)

Yeah and what about those Romans eh? 

I'd hope we all know that "race" is in and of itself stupid nebulous hogwash, I don't think it's particularly worthwhile looking for consistency in its use here.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Correct. There are many forms of prejudice. Racism is prejudice on the basis of race.
> 
> In my head, and I reckon the heads of most people, the terms 'racial prejudice' and 'racism' are synonyms.



I suspect that you don't actually think that racism is _synonymous_ with racial prejudice but rather you think that racial prejudice is a _sufficient condition_ for racism. To illustrate racism without racial prejudice Terry Eagleton gives the example (iirc) of a bus driver enforcing racial segregation on his bus. This driver has no personal dislike of black people but he wants to avoid any hassle for noncompliance with the law. His compliance with the racist law is still racist though, regardless of whether he is prejudiced or not.

We can fancifully elaborate on Eagleton's example: we can imagine that the legislators who passed the racial segregation laws also have no personal animosity towards black people - they introduce the laws based on the calculation that they will create divisions in the population that will make them easier to rule over. Let us further suppose that there is no demand amongst the white population for such laws, but they nevertheless comply with them out of fear of sanction. In this admittedly far-fetched thought experiment there is no racial prejudice but there is nonetheless a system of racial apartheid in place - i.e. there is a racist society.

This example doesn't get to the heart of whether the 'power dependent' or 'power independent' account of racism is the better one, but it does suggest that how we understand the meaning of racism is closely tied to our understanding of how structures of power operate.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Wtf?



He made a remarkably unimpressive debut on the ID pol thread and has now brought his wisdom here for our benefit.  Well, I say debut...


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So calling a white person a gammon as a racial insult isn't racist?
> 
> It's based on skin colour and used as an insult. How the fuck is that not racist?


For the reasons quoted before that you choose  to ignore. If you can’t get your head round that, it’s your problem not mine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white


yeh. you know you've just fucked up the point you were trying to make, don't you. _nul points._


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> For the reasons quoted before that you choose  to ignore. If you can’t get your head round that, it’s your problem not mine.


Nonsense. I've ignored nothing. I think you're pretending that I have because it's convenient to you though. Are you referring to that complete shit you were banging on about domestic abuse?


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What about Ireland? They were under the colonial boot for long enough.



Aye, not just the colonial boot but some didn't even want them commenting on "British" topics 




Yeah, cross thread shit but couldn't resist it


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Here comes the beef!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2018)

This place really is a parody of itself at times


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Here comes the beef!


the roast beef of auld england


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Here comes the beef!



But, beef is not racist.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Here comes the beef!


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 23, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> But, beef is not racist.


How about les rosbifs?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you know you've just fucked up the point you were trying to make, don't you. _nul points._



no, what is the problem?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white


No true Scotsman, eh? suppose the same thing can go for Eastern Europeans today?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Nonsense. I've ignored nothing. I think you're pretending that I have because it's convenient to you though. Are you referring to that complete shit you were banging on about domestic abuse?


No, you actually responded to that. Not in a consistent manner, but you did actually respond. 

You use the woolly liberal definition of racism, I don’t. That is a worthless definition, imo, totally pointless. 

Why can’t we all just be nice to each other?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no, what is the problem?





lucillemara said:


> the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white


right. and the anti-irish racism we have seen in the past 150 years? in the last 50? none of it racism against white people because the irish aren't considered white?

e2a: the very fact they weren't considered white at times in the past seems to me clear evidence of racism, even if it skipped right over your head


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, you actually responded to that. Not in a consistent manner, but you did actually respond.
> 
> You use the woolly liberal definition of racism, I don’t. That is a worthless definition, imo, totally pointless.
> 
> Why can’t we all just be nice to each other?


Bullshit. It's not a woolly definition. Your definition is the woolly one. It just doesn't pretend to encapsulate the entire complex situation within one word.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, you actually responded to that. Not in a consistent manner, but you did actually respond.


Responded to it? I blew it to fuck.


> You use the woolly liberal definition of racism, I don’t. That is a worthless definition, imo, totally pointless.


I don't think there's anything at all pointless or woolly about steering kids away from using racially based epithets on the basis that they are ... racist.


> Why can’t we all just be nice to each other?


Happy to try.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Bullshit. It's not a woolly definition. Your definition is the woolly one. It just doesn't pretend to encapsulate the entire complex situation within one word.


I make no such pretence. 

But as all you are doing is going ‘no it isnt’ over and over, there’s not much point just reiterating the same points.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> come on this is ridiculous
> 
> racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial. our modern ideas about race and whiteness (racism) are products of european and american colonial divisions of labour. a dictionary definition of racism isn't good enough.


Fucking idiot.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white



But we do?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> right. and the anti-irish racism we have seen in the past 150 years? in the last 50? none of it racism against white people because the irish aren't considered white?
> 
> e2a: the very fact they weren't considered white at times in the past seems to me clear evidence of racism, even if it skipped right over your head



no, it is not racism against white people, it is anti-irish racism. this is simple.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Fucking hell.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Responded to it? I blew it to fuck.


Hardly. You agreed violence set domestically isn’t always violence, it needs context. But use of words needs no such context. Hmm...



> I don't think there's anything at all pointless or woolly about steering kids away from using racially based epithets on the basis that they are ... racist.


Except, if they’re not racist those kids will just ignore you, so it’s pretty worthless. 



> Happy to fail.


cfy


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Fucking idiot.



some people don't like being reminded why the concept of white people exists in the first place. 



Magnus McGinty said:


> But we do?



usually, sometimes, depending on the area. there is no discrimination on the basis of being white.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Hardly. You agreed violence set domestically isn’t always violence, it needs context.


Not only that. I illustrated that that particular comparison of racism and domestic abuse, was fundamentally flawed.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Except, if they’re not racist those kids will just ignore you, so it’s pretty worthless.


Yeah, you're doing it wrong, Spy. What do you know about racism anyway?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Not only that. I illustrated that that particular comparison of racism and domestic abuse, was fundamentally flawed.


No you didn’t. You changed the terms being used. You are very slapdash with your terminology.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no, it is not racism against white people, it is anti-irish racism. this is simple.


irish people are white
therefore racism against irish people is racism against a subset of white people
polish people are white
therefore racism against polish people is racism against a subset of white people
this is simple
e2a: you said "racism against white people doesn't exist". but it does. i have given you two groups of white people - and there are of course more who could be mentioned - who have experienced racism. you didn't say what you're now retreating to, which is that 'no one's prejudiced against all white people, that no one is the victim of anti-white racism'. i hope you're going down that goalpost shifting stance.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, you're doing it wrong, Spy. What do you know about racism anyway?


Okay, I’ll just agree with any Tory on race, as king as they’re black. Cos, y’know, they’re black.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> usually, sometimes, depending on the area. there is no discrimination on the basis of being white.



So your colonialism argument collapses in the face of you claiming ethnicity is irrelevant in the case of Ireland.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Okay, I’ll just agree with any Tory on race, as king as they’re black. Cos, y’know, they’re black.



And a King.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> irish people are white
> therefore racism against irish people is racism against a subset of white people
> polish people are white
> therefore racism against polish people is racism against a subset of white people
> this is simple



no one experiences racism on the basis of being white.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No you didn’t. You changed the terms being used. You are very slapdash with your terminology.


Nope. You just didn't understand the absurdity of the connection you were trying to make.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> racism against white people doesn't exist and this shouldn't be controversial


but it does. and often enough it comes from other white people, just as there is a fair amount of racism between other people of similar hues - for example, between cambodians and vietnamese. when Magnus McGinty raised the issue of the irish, you didn't say what you now say, you said





lucillemara said:


> the racial ideology of the time did not consider irish people white


and so i think that when you say


lucillemara said:


> no one experiences racism on the basis of being white.


you're shifting the goalposts more than slightly. you're as honest, no doubt, as the day is long: but the evenings are drawing in.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Perhaps no Irishman can be racist. This is the logical end point of that argument.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Nope. You just didn't understand the absurdity of the connection you were trying to make.


Show, don't tell. All you did was go 'no, no, no, that's different!' without offering any, non-circular, justification.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Ok, I get it...no-one wants to come and discuss Brexit/ToryDeathSpiral today...you're all too busy in here.

Have you covered the antisemitic angle yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

irishman 7/3/1874


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Show, don't tell. All you did was go 'no, no, no, that's different!' without offering any, non-circular, justification.


Don't be dim. You were trying to advance that a woman who strikes back at an abusive husband wasn't guilty of domestic abuse, therefore a person who uses racial abuse towards someone who racially abused them first, wasn't guilty of racial abuse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> Ok, I get it...no-one wants to come and discuss Brexit/ToryDeathSpiral today...you're all too busy in here.
> 
> Have you covered the antisemitic angle yet?


we're playing with our new (?) friend


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> we're playing with our new (?) friend


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

that would be the pall mall gazette of 28/2/1874


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Don't be dim. You were trying to advance that a woman who strikes back at an abusive husband wasn't guilty of domestic abuse, therefore a person who uses racial abuse towards someone who racially abused them first, wasn't guilty of racial abuse.


Oh dear, you really do have difficulty with analogies, don't you?

You accept that 'domestic abuse' is not the same as 'abuse that happens in a domestic setting', so why must 'abuse that involves racial terms' always be racIST?  Answering using actual words might help your case (though I doubt it)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 150445
> that would be the pall mall gazette of 28/2/1874



You weren’t supporting my earlier arguments so I had to play the ace card unfortunately.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You weren’t supporting my earlier arguments so I had to play the ace card unfortunately.


soz, i missed that


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

Teaboy said:


> He made a remarkably unimpressive debut on the ID pol thread and has now brought his wisdom here for our benefit.  Well, I say debut...


yeh he's a man with much to be modest about


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh he's a man with much to be modest about



stealing this...


----------



## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

Are Irish an ethnic group rather than race?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> You accept that 'domestic abuse' is not the same as 'abuse that happens in a domestic setting', so why must 'abuse that involves racial terms' always be racIST?


Fucking ada. Because racially abusing someone is a racist action. Striking back at a violently abusive husband _is a violent action_ although it may not be an abusive one.

Get it? See post 221 again if you're still struggling.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> Are Irish an ethnic group rather than race?



Used pretty much interchangeably.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking ada. Because racially abusing someone is a racist action.



Unless they're white, I believe.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> Unless they're white, I believe.


Accoring to dixkheads and party hacks.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

people need to read "the history of white people" and "how the irish became white".


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

The Irish were always white, as inconvenient as that is to your hypotheses.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Accoring to dixkheads and party hacks.



Had this argument with a super-lefty many years back - it was a point of dogma.  I can understand where it comes from in terms of power analysis, but when it becomes dogma it becomes useful only for identifying fellow members of the right-on tribe.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> people need to read "the history of white people" and "how the irish became white".



You need to read a third book.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 23, 2018)

Ham sandwich, gamon hidden in a roll.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Fucking ada. Because racially abusing someone is a racist action. Striking back at a violently abusive husband _is a violent action_ although it may not be an abusive one.
> 
> Get it? See post 221 again if you're still struggling.


No, you are just showing you dont get the distinction between racism and racial prejudice.  You may not agree, but it is pretty dishonest, even by your standards, to pretend you refuse to recognise it.

Funny thing about this thread, is you are probably the biggest Gammon on the boards.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

Gringo was the term shouted at my schoolchum Terry May when he was stabbed to death by a group of mostly black kids. 

Racist? Of course.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, you are just showing you dont get the distinction between racism and racial prejudice.  You may not agree, but it is pretty dishonest, even by your standards, to pretend you refuse to recognise it.
> 
> Funny thing about this thread, is you are probably the biggest Gammon on the boards.



FFS.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

I always find the liberal tendency to place all non whites into the category of victimhood, regardless of their position in society, to be a racist position.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, you are just showing you dont get the distinction between racism and racial prejudice.  You may not agree, but it is pretty dishonest, even by your standards, to pretend you refuse to recognise it.
> 
> Funny thing about this thread, is you are probably the biggest Gammon on the boards.


My god! Talk about a fucking swerve  

I can tell you're getting rattled now because the ad hominems are coming out and this is what you always do when you're getting your arse handed to you.

Let's try this one again though: If an Indian racially abuses a black man and the black man responds by calling the Indian a paki, has the black man been racist too or just the Indian?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

Whenever bellend runs out of argument he then plays the man.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> My god! Talk about a fucking swerve
> 
> I can tell you're getting rattled now because the ad hominems are coming out and this is what you always do when you're getting your arse handed to you.
> 
> Let's try this one again though: If an Indian racially abuses a black man and the black man responds by calling the Indian a paki, has the black man been racist too or just the Indian?


No swerves at all, I am sticking to the point I made, you agreed with, but couldn't follow through logically. Logic isn't really your strong point.

You have failed to offer any argument against my definition (that racism is racial prejudice PLUS power), you just blather on. Same as always. It is kinda funny.

You've also failed to notice that in calling you a gammon, I must be using 'gammon' on a way that doesn't refer to white folk. Because it doesn't, necessarily. Because it isn't racist.

Try thinking your arguments through, they might make sense then.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No swerves at all, I am sticking to the point I made, you agreed with, but couldn't follow through logically.
> 
> You have failed to offer any argument against my definition (that racism is racial prejudice PLUS power), you just blather on. Same as always. It is kinda funny.



Saying that over and over again doesn't make it any less nonsense. And you don't really think it's funny do you? You're sitting there absolutely fucking fuming while studiously avoiding a question that'll sink you (again) however you try to answer it!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> people need to read "the history of white people" and "how the irish became white".


you might try "nothing but the same old story" by Liz Curtis


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 23, 2018)

I'm somewhat conflicted about what I think about this racism/power debate. Below I've sketched some of the pros/cons (as I see it) of each position. Still not fully sure which view I find more convincing on the whole. I've tended to the view that under present conditions people racialised as white cannot be victims of racism (although they can be victims of prejudice and discrimination of various kinds) but I'm not wedded to this view.

----
*
Power Independent Definition (PID) (i.e. discrimination or prejudice based on race) 
*
Pros

* Transparency - Comports with 'common sense' understanding of racism
* Parsimony - easy to understand and apply
* Inclusivity - doesn't exclude anybody
* Consistency - applies a single standard for all races

Cons

* False Equivalence - the prej/discrim that dominant and marginalised racialised groups is radically different, requiring different labels.
* Individualistic - (tends to) fixate on the individual rather than social systems as the loci of racism
* Idealist - (tends to) prioritise psychological phenomena over historical/material factors 
* Deflationary - by including fairly inconsequential forms of prej/discrim within the definition, the seriousness of racism is undermined

*Power Dependent Definition (PDD) (e.g. "racism = prejudice + power")
*
Pros

* more or less the inverse of the cons for PID

Cons 

* more or less the inverse of the pros for PID 

-----

Thoughts?

Perhaps one way of preserving the benefits of each position whilst mitigating each's weaknesses would be to distinguish between 'individual' racism on the one hand and 'institutional' and 'systemic' racism on the other. Maybe we could accept that individual racism is a power neutral concept whereas institutional and systemic racism are tied to particular power relations such that white people under present conditions cannot be victims of these sorts of racism? Then again, there is still a lingering worry that there is still too much collapsing going on in the individual context. Is a white person calling a black person the N word even remotely the same as a black person calling a white person a honky or a cracker? They seem so far apart to me in terms of their seriousness that using the same word for both just feels wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, you are just showing you dont get the distinction between racism and racial prejudice.  You may not agree, but it is pretty dishonest, even by your standards, to pretend you refuse to recognise it.
> 
> Funny thing about this thread, is you are probably the biggest Gammon on the boards.


Against this sort of pedantry I cannot compete


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Oooh a sneaky edit. I nearly missed that.



belboid said:


> You've also failed to notice that in calling you a gammon, I must be using 'gammon' on a way that doesn't refer to white folk. Because it doesn't, necessarily. Because it isn't racist.


This might hold a bit of water if I had at any point suggested that use of the term was _always_ racist. Of course I've actually said something quite different.

You're really struggling now fella.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Saying that over and over again doesn't make it any less nonsense. And you don't really think it's funny do you? You're sitting there absolutely fucking fuming while studiously avoiding a question that'll sink you (again) however you try to answer it!


I'm not fuming at all, i think you'll find that is projection. Why would I fume at a bog standard bit of liberal misunderstanding?  you haven't offered any argument against my position, you merely restate yours.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

_look at this Gammon


_
That's OK?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The Irish were always white, das inconvenient as that is to your hypotheses.



so you're a racial platonist? why do you think white exists as a category?



Magnus McGinty said:


> I always find the liberal tendency to place all non whites into the category of victimhood, regardless of their position in society, to be a racist position.



is there a single non-white person in the country who has not experienced racism, regardless of class? this is just an acknowledgement our racial ideology is white supremacy. because of our history and relations with the people colonised. when relations change our ideas about race change. it is never fixed and can't be abstracted away from what is actually happening in the world. to flatten racism to just any prejudice between "races" means the sociohistorical context and power dynamics are lost.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Oooh a sneaky edit. I nearly missed that.
> 
> 
> This might hold a bit of water if I had at any point suggested that use of the term was _always_ racist. Of course I've actually said something quite different.
> ...


I apologise for attempting to clarify a point, although I recognise that that is waste of time with you. 

"It's a pejorative term for white people often used by some PoC, particularly youngsters. " - that was your original definition on this thread, if you no longer stick by it, fair enough. that aint my fault tho


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Maybe we could accept that individual racism is a power neutral concept whereas institutional and systemic racism are tied to particular power relations such that white people under present conditions cannot be victims of these sorts of racism? Then again, there is still a lingering worry that there is still too much collapsing going on in the individual context. Is a white person calling a black person the N word even remotely the same as a black person calling a white person a honky or a cracker? They seem so far apart to me in terms of their seriousness that using the same word for both just feels wrong.



I'm with you on the second part of this, to some degree. 
But a reasonably off Afro-Caribbean third-gen person using a racial slur against a Chinese immigrant is still worthy of the word, in my view.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> you haven't offered any argument against my position ...


Are you fucking kidding???? 

Tell you what, as a kid, when my dad was whooping me at chess and I was in a hopeless position he'd play my pieces and I'd play his. How about we swap the board round and see if I can get you out of the shit you've buried yourself in here?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Are you fucking kidding????
> 
> Tell you what, as a kid, when my dad was whooping me at chess and I was in a hopeless position he'd play my pieces and I'd play his. How about we swap the board round and see if I can get you out of the shit you've buried yourself in here?



Yeah, it looks like a kindness at the time, but it's a bitch when you lose twice.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> "It's a pejorative term for white people often used by some PoC, particularly youngsters. " - that was your original definition on this thread, if you no longer stick by it, fair enough.


 I absolutely stick by it. I've even extrapolated on it in subsequent posts. 

What are you trying now? Desperate stuff this.


----------



## andysays (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Don't  you  wag your finger at me ...



I think we may have reached peak Rutita1 here!!1!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> to flatten racism to just any prejudice between "races" means the sociohistorical context and power dynamics are lost.


No it doesn't. And it doesn't have just one sociohistorical context or power dynamic. Understanding the racist attitudes of the Han Chinese, for instance, requires studying a whole different dynamic from any that operate in this country.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No it doesn't. And it doesn't have just one sociohistorical context or power dynamic. Understanding the racist attitudes of the Han Chinese, for instance, requires studying a whole different dynamic from any that operate in this country.



racism is different in places with different power dynamics? so it is material?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> _look at this Gammon
> 
> View attachment 150448
> _
> That's OK?



And there was us thinking Spymaster would be the first to Kach themselves on this thread


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> _look at this Gammon
> 
> View attachment 150448
> _
> That's OK?



Why the tiny letter 'a' on their noses?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No swerves at all, I am sticking to the point I made, you agreed with, but couldn't follow through logically. Logic isn't really your strong point.
> 
> You have failed to offer any argument against my definition (that racism is racial prejudice PLUS power), you just blather on. Same as always. It is kinda funny.
> 
> ...



I thought it one of the cornerstones of the liberal nonsense you come out with is that it isn’t a white mans place to dictate what racism is to a non white person? 
Yes, that’s glee.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> racism is different in places with different power dynamics? so it is material?



It is a kind of gas.
A small gas like Calor gas.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And there was us thinking Spymaster would be the first to Kach themselves on this thread


I think (???) that's quite funny.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> Why the tiny letter 'a' on their noses?



Stock


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Are you fucking kidding????
> 
> Tell you what, as a kid, when my dad was whooping me at chess and I was in a hopeless position he'd play my pieces and I'd play his. How about we swap the board round and see if I can get you out of the shit you've buried yourself in here?


No, you haven't. To repeat: show, don't tell. 

You used a shit definition, then wriggled about 'clarifying,' then said the same thing over and over, a bit louder each time. Of course you always think you 'hold all the pieces,' even on those occasions when you fail at basic maths.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> Why the tiny letter 'a' on their noses?


'Alamy' stock image water-marking I think.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought it one of the cornerstones of the liberal nonsense you come out with is that it isn’t a white mans place to dictate what racism is to a non white person?
> Yes, that’s glee.


the list of things you don't understand gets longer every day, silly little boy.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Stock



Alphabet stock?
For making alphabet soup?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> the list of things you don't understand gets longer every day, silly little boy.


Playing the man consistently now.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> Alphabet stock?
> For making alphabet soup?


yeah; pea & _ham, _obvs


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 23, 2018)

8ball said:


> I'm with you on the second part of this, to some degree.
> But a reasonably off Afro-Caribbean third-gen person using a racial slur against a Chinese immigrant is still worthy of the word, in my view.



I agree, it's clear to me that non-white people can be racist towards other non-white people but less clear whether non-whites can be racist towards whites.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> so you're a racial platonist? why do you think white exists as a category?
> 
> 
> 
> is there a single non-white person in the country who has not experienced racism, regardless of class? this is just an acknowledgement our racial ideology is white supremacy. because of our history and relations with the people colonised. when relations change our ideas about race change. it is never fixed and can't be abstracted away from what is actually happening in the world. to flatten racism to just any prejudice between "races" means the sociohistorical context and power dynamics are lost.



I agree to a certain extent. But there’s also villainous and unscrupulous cunts who hide behind this kind of absolutism whilst exercising power. You can’t apply it to literally every non white person.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Funny thing about this thread, is you are probably the biggest Gammon on the boards.



WTF?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> the list of things you don't understand gets longer every day, silly little boy.



Another ad hominem


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 23, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I agree, it's clear to me that non-white people can be racist towards other non-white people but less clear whether non-whites can be racist towards whites.



Really?  The two black guys on the bus who called me a white slag weren't being racist?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 23, 2018)

brogdale said:


> I think (???) that's quite funny.



The chaps in your photo are Kahanists.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 23, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Really?  The two black guys on the bus who called me a white slag weren't being racist?



I’m not sure. They were obviously being sexist and deeply unpleasant though.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

*Hand wring*


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I’m not sure. They were obviously being sexist and deeply unpleasant though.



Why mention her skin pigmentation then?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> No, you haven't. To repeat: show, don't tell.


I've now done it several times, silly, but I'm thoroughly enjoying this so I'll ask again: If an Indian racially abuses a black man and the black man responds by calling the Indian a paki, has the black man been racist too or just the Indian?


> You used a shit definition, then wriggled about 'clarifying,' then said the same thing over and over, a bit louder each time. Of course you always think you 'hold all the pieces,' even on those occasions when you fail at basic maths.


It's perfectly clear who's doing all the wriggling here, old chap. I assume this latest non-sequitur, ad hominem, is a reference to my age/date thread debacle the other week. What's next, "poo pants"?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Really?  The two black guys on the bus who called me a white slag weren't being racist?



Yeah, there are layers of definition - the power analysis is important but that certainly looks like racism of a kind.
What is complicated for me is this - I'm 3/4 white - was it racism when I got called a 'wog' as a child for my curly hair by kids who had never seen my Mum or Grandad?

I took it as being racist, but toward my family rather than me.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why mention her skin pigmentation then?



It was clearly a racial slur but I'm ambivalent as to whether or not it amounts to racism for the reasons I laid out on my post on the previous page.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I agree, it's clear to me that non-white people can be racist towards other non-white people but less clear whether non-whites can be racist towards whites.


If the Indian MD of a London firm refuses to employ white people, is he being racist?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Playing the man consistently now.


He's just wounded and lashing out, bless him.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I agree, it's clear to me that non-white people can be racist towards other non-white people but less clear whether non-whites can be racist towards whites.


If an Asian cricket team avoid taking on white players, is that racist?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

what about black on black crime? why can they say it but I can't?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> what about black on black crime? why can they say it but I can't?



You just did.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> what about black on black crime? why can they say it but I can't?



Say what?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> what about black on black crime? why can they say it but I can't?



Liberals don’t care about that. They only leap out of their chairs if it’s white on black murders.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

wow it's really like that eh


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

does the white tears mug make you cry


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

What if an Inuit child called an Australian First Nation child a wanker in class and then the Australian First Nation child’s mum (adopted) who was Han Chinese went round to the Korean teacher of the class where it happened and called them a knob, so the teacher went to the mum’s best friend, who, strangely enough, was the teacher’s neighbor and happened to be Native Canadian and said they were a cunt. 

Would that be racist?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> does the white tears mug make you cry


I smell rat


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> What if an Inuit child called an Australian First Nation child a wanker in class and then the Australian First Nation child’s mum (adopted) who was Han Chinese went round to the Korean teacher of the class where it happened and called them a knob, so the teacher went to the mum’s best friend, who, strangely enough, was the teacher’s neighbor and happened to be Native Canadian and said they were a cunt.
> 
> Would that be racist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You just did.


It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

So, if:

1: You can’t be racist against white people.

2: A very large proportion of French people are white.

Then:

Is it  OK for us to hate the French again?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

ITT
races are platonic essences
materialism is liberal
white people have it bad too you know


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> So, if:
> 
> 1: You can’t be racist against white people.
> 
> ...



Of course, it's all part of the 'love-hate relationship'.

We love to hate them, they hate to love us.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2018)

Reference to skin colour or ethnicity in an attempt to infer characterisation or demonisation based on such is racism. It doesn’t ‘appear to be that’ or ‘look like that’, it _is. _That is not to take anything away from the power dynamic that is hugely important in looking at the history of white colonialism and political superiority of white people over PoC, nor is it to detract from the incidences of simple prejudice against PoC against which the racism suffered by white people pales (see what I did there?) into insignificance. But, to repeat myself, reference to skin colour or ethnicity, in an attempt to infer characterisation or demonisation based on such, is racism.

And, btw, gammon is simply a shit term. Call a cunt a cunt ffs. Some real liberal shit going on in this thread.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 23, 2018)

On a historical note, my recollection is that everybody used to say 'racially prejudiced' and then the word 'racist' became more popular. If there has been some change in the meaning and so there is a difference then I think the one of power imbalance is it. But lots of people use both terms in much the same way. 

Which are the lazy generalisations that I hear every other day about Brits?


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 23, 2018)

An african-american person I know well (not a friend but someone I have to work with) during a disagreement about something unrelated to ethnicity, rolls their eyes, looks me up and down, suck their teeth and mutters, ''Fucking white people...''

Not as a joke, in all seriousness.

Not _racist?_ Just _racially prejudiced?_ Not a hate crime, just hate?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

that must have been traumatic


----------



## Wilf (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> What if an Inuit child called an Australian First Nation child a wanker in class and then the Australian First Nation child’s mum (adopted) who was Han Chinese went round to the Korean teacher of the class where it happened and called them a knob, so the teacher went to the mum’s best friend, who, strangely enough, was the teacher’s neighbor and happened to be Native Canadian and said they were a cunt.


Dunno, but can I pitch the Mini Series?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ITT
> races are platonic essences
> materialism is liberal
> white people have it bad too you know


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> An african-american person I know well (not a friend but someone I have to work with) during a disagreement about something unrelated to ethnicity, rolls their eyes, looks me up and down, suck their teeth and mutters, ''Fucking white people...''



I think I know him.  He’s usually right on that score tbf.


----------



## A380 (Oct 23, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Dunno, but can I pitch the Mini Series?


Love thy Neighbors?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> Love thy Neighbors?


My mother in law is so intersectional...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> wow it's really like that eh



Show me the liberal outrage about crime committed within black communities and I’ll retract.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

literal breitbart talking points


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid



Spymaster said:


> Give an example of a racially prejudiced statement that's not racist.





Spymaster said:


> If an Indian racially abuses a black man and the black man responds by calling the Indian a paki, has the black man been racist too or just the Indian?



When you're ready, mate


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> that must have been traumatic



It was something rude, right? No more traumatic than other things I've been called, less probably because my identity as a ''white person'' isn't that strong. But it felt racist.



8ball said:


> I think I know him.  He’s usually right on that score tbf.



Not a _him _in this case. Interesting assumption though.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 23, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> An african-american person I know well (not a friend but someone I have to work with) during a disagreement about something unrelated to ethnicity, rolls their eyes, looks me up and down, suck their teeth and mutters, ''Fucking white people...''
> 
> Not as a joke, in all seriousness.
> 
> Not _racist?_ Just _racially prejudiced?_ Not a hate crime, just hate?


Liked, not least for avoiding the term 'co-worker'.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> literal breitbart talking points



You started it.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

why so much effort coming up with scenarios in which white people are the victim?


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 23, 2018)

Are you saying I'm making it up?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

no, it's terrible but it's not racist
the inferiority of white people is not part of our racial ideology


----------



## Gromit (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> So, if:
> 
> 1: You can’t be racist against white people.
> 
> ...


I love how people manage to qualify their racism. Oh it’s not racism because...

All races count. All racism counts. 
You can even be racist against your own race. 

Bigotry is bigotry and any who try to believe their bigotry is the good kind of bigotry not the bad kind are really missing the point.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no, it's terrible but it's not racist
> the inferiority of white people is not part of our racial ideology



isn't_ having a racial ideology_ in the first place _literal_ racism?

come on, you're all over the place.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 23, 2018)

white supremacy is hegemonic. that's our racial ideology as it exists today. it is racism but racism also includes the violence the ideology reflects and justifies.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 23, 2018)

I don't really get it. This 'gammon' being racist. Its not I word I would use myself, but it seems to be stretching the definition. I would have thought it would be in the class of say: 'pasty face', laughing at David Dickenson back in the day or calling women orange and it becoming some kind of meme with associated connotations. Except now its all over twitter.


----------



## Sunset Tree (Oct 23, 2018)

The term itself doesn't offend me personally.  But the type of people who gleefully adopted it are the worst sort of middle class smug twitterati liberals.  Can't fail to be shit politics coming from that crowd.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> belboid
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You first, old bean. I am still awaiting your refutation of racism being prejudice*+*power.

Your earlier response was this:

"A racist statement however, is racist."

Which, obviously, fails to cover it.  

Racism isn't just prejudice. Prejudice, along racial lines, has existed throughout history. But it wasn't really 'racism' when there was no ideological (and material) apparatus to back it up, it was simply individual prejudice. Nasty and shitty, of course, but a different beast, which needed tackling in different ways. Racism was explicitly developed to justify colonialism and the plunder, conquest and slavery. It was developed a a key tool to divide and rule the working-class. In that, it is quite different to not liking Wednesday fans. Power matters.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> You first, old bean. I am still awaiting your refutation of racism being prejudice*+*power.
> 
> Your earlier response was this:
> 
> ...


Can you point out anywhere that I've made the argument that racism is _just_ prejudice?

No? Didn't think so. It's a strawman you've manufactured to avoid some tricky questions.  

Can you answer those questions now please?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Can you point out anywhere that I've made the argument that racism is _just_ prejudice?
> 
> No? Didn't think so. It's a strawman you've manufactured to avoid some tricky questions.
> 
> Can you answer those questions now please?


Your logic is failing, again. I didn't say you said that, so there is no straw man. 

Obviously even you will recognise that racism _can be_ more than just prejudice, but _just _prejudice is enough. Which is what I am disagreeing with. 

You need to use your terms more carefully.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> No its not , the power structures behind racism that allows one group to oppress another eg white on black do not operate in reverse , as the oppressed group (generally)  will not have the power to discriminate aginst their oppressors.
> 
> This is why so called "reverse racism" called against policies such as affirmative action initiatives is such bollocks and a false right wing trope.
> 
> The use of gammon is offensive and pejorative ceftainly but not racist, anyone who says it it needs to revisit fundamentally what thier idea of racism is and how it operates on a broader power based scale.



This was a racist killing of a white person.

Murder of Kriss Donald - Wikipedia


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> I didn't say you said that, so there is no straw man.


So you're asking me to refute a position that I don't disagree with? 

And you reckon it's MY logic that's failing? Fucking hell. You really are the master of misrepresentation and obfuscation. 

Now about those questions ...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> Not a _him _in this case. Interesting assumption though.



Well it is in the case of the person I know. 

Fucking white people.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2018)




----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Ax^ said:


>



Never a missed virtue-signalling opportunity.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> literal breitbart talking points



Ah yeah, it’s racist to care about black victims of violence in their communities.
How’s about you fuck off?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2018)

how the hell is this 15 pages since  yesterday was more of my angle


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Ax^ said:


> how the hell is this 15 pages since  yesterday was more of my angle



Imagine if it hadn’t been gammon, but bacon!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

andysays said:


> I think we may have reached peak Rutita1 here!!1!





Magnus McGinty said:


> Ah yeah, it’s racist to care about black victims of violence in their communities.
> How’s about you fuck off?



When have you ever expressed concern or interest in the crime and violence that White people are a victim of in communities that are predominantly White? ...'you know 'White victims of violence in their communities'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACHOO

*sneezes over thread*

Sorry about that. Hayfever. All that straw.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> When have you ever expressed concern or interest in the crime and violence that White people are a victim of in communities that are predominantly White? ...'you know 'White victims of violence in their communities'.



When I talk about class, but for the purpose of this conversation I’m having to frame everything in liberal shite because idpol.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Thread has been slimed.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> When I talk about class, but for the purpose of this conversation I’m having to frame everything in liberal shite because idpol.



I have never once read you talking about _White victims of White violence_. You never do it.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So you're asking me to refute a position that I don't disagree with?
> 
> And you reckon it's MY logic that's failing? Fucking hell. You really are the master of misrepresentation and obfuscation.
> 
> Now about those questions ...


No. YOU said that prejudice alone was enough to make something racist. A specific kind of prejudice, but still, just prejudice.  I have argued that it requires more than prejudice. That is the difference. 

So, back to you.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> YOU said that prejudice alone was enough to make something racist.


Where? 

Quote please?


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> When have you ever expressed concern or interest in the crime and violence that White people are a victim of in communities that are predominantly White? ...'you know 'White victims of violence in their communities'.



Pensioner arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.

When travellers are involved.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> I have never once read you talking about White victims of White violence. You never do it.



Maybe you should re-read the fairly recent thread about the white thieving scumbag getting murdered by the white pensioner? 
Of course it wasn’t framed in terms of race. Only liberal dicks do that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Pensioner arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.
> 
> When travellers are involved.



You beat me to it. Traveller irrelevant ffs
You’re such a cock.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You beat me to it. Traveller irrelevant ffs



Milliseconds Magnus, milliseconds. Like your edit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

A380 said:


> Love thy Neighbors?


Bless this house


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Milliseconds Magnus, milliseconds. Like your edit.



What about my second edit? Keep out of my way you irrelevant twit.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe you should re-read the fairly recent thread about the white thieving scumbag getting murdered by the white pensioner?
> Of course it wasn’t framed in terms of race. Only liberal dicks do that.



*look at the daily mail*


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

This place is a liberal shitheap. You guys crack on. I’ll laugh when fascism arrives despite me being dragged away also.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What about my second edit? Keep out of my way you irrelevant twit.



Which way are you going? Actually, it’s not hard to tell. Twit, lol etc. Edit - are you pissed?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe you should re-read the fairly recent thread about the white thieving scumbag getting murdered by the white pensioner?
> Of course it wasn’t framed in terms of race. Only liberal dicks do that.



So...where on that thread did you use the terminology/description 'White victims of violence in their own communities'?

Or are you admitting to essentially using 'working class' as short hand to mean White when you are discussing violence in communities where the perp and victim are White?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Let's try this one again though: If an Indian racially abuses a black man and the black man responds by calling the Indian a paki, has the black man been racist too or just the Indian?


Don't hold your breath. He's avoiding this one like the plague. If you keep pressing him on it, he's likely to explode, and tell you you drive a shit car.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This place is a liberal shitheap. You guys crack on. I’ll laugh when fascism arrives despite me being dragged away also.


plenty of places out there for you


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> So...where on that thread did you use the terminology/description 'White victims of violence in their own communities'?
> 
> Or are you admitting to essentially using 'working class' as short hand to mean White when you are discussing violence in communities where the perp and victim are White?



Where have you discussed black victims of crime by black perps?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Where?
> 
> Quote please?


christ, do you forget your own posts that quickly?


Spymaster said:


> Give an example of a racially prejudiced statement that's not racist.


That says, quite specifically, that a (racially) prejudiced term is enough for it to be racist. It is the entire basis of your argument.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Which way are you going? Actually, it’s not hard to tell. Twit, lol etc. Edit - are you pissed?



Just keep out of my way. The irony of you turning that into evidence of me being racist is beyond the pale.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just keep out of my way. The irony of you turning that into evidence of me being racist is beyond the pale.



Keep out of your way on a message board???

I’ll give you that using ‘beyond the pale’ and ‘racist’ and ‘irony’ in the same sentence is indeed, erm, interesting though.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Where have you discussed black victims of crime by black perps?



SO you have no answer so ask me this question?

You have basically outed yourself as an IDpoler on this thread. Like you do all the cocking time. You attack others for framing shit around race but do it yourself...and no, 'Working class' doesn't mean White no matter how many times you use it to imply as such. It would be great if a such a learned, hard left, class hero, freedom fighter like yourself could get to grips with this basic fucking truth


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> That says, quite specifically, that a (racially) prejudiced term is enough for it to be racist. It is the entire basis of your argument.


No it isn't. He specifically stated that it was racist when it was being used as a racist term.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> SO you have no answer so ask me this question?
> 
> You have basically outed yourself as an IDpoler on this thread. Like you do all the cocking time. You attack others for framing shit around race but do it yourself...and no, 'Working class' doesn't mean White no matter how many times you use it to imply as such. It would be great if a such a learned, hard left, class hero, freedom fighter like yourself could get to grips with this basic fucking truth



You don’t talk about black on black crime at all, do you?
Don’t forget, it’s considered racist for me to do so, so it’s entirely your ball park.
You said I didn’t discuss white on white crime yet you’ve been given an example of it this year.
Where’s your examples?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 23, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> Keep out of your way on a message board???
> 
> I’ll give you that using ‘beyond the pale’ and ‘racist’ and ‘irony’ in the same sentence is indeed, erm, interesting though.



No it isn’t. You’re just being a dick.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

So this ...


Spymaster said:


> Give an example of a racially prejudiced statement that's not racist.


... is me saying that prejudice alone is enough to make something racist, in your world? Even though in your previous post you said that I didn't say that???? (Don't think nobody noticed you've now stuck "racially" in there too) 

Are you absolutely fucking mad? You're absolutely all over the place.

Let's also note that you've been unable to provide such an example.

Look, you've been making shit up and trying to muddy the waters when you're busted. Why not just hold you're hands up now and we'll move on?

Otherwise answer the questions.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Don't hold your breath. He's avoiding this one like the plague. If you keep pressing him on it, he's likely to explode, and tell you you drive a shit car.


I know, it's just a fucking joke now.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> I’ll give you that using ‘beyond the pale’ and ‘racist’ and ‘irony’ in the same sentence is indeed, erm, interesting though.



Freudians everywhere tonight.
Etymologists less so.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> No it isn't. He specifically stated that it was racist when it was being used as a racist term.


Ta da! 

It seems belboid is the only one who doesn't get it.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So this ...
> 
> ... is me saying that prejudice alone is enough to make something racist, in your world? Even though in your previous post you said that I didn't say that???? (Don't think nobody noticed you've now stuck "racially" in there too)


'racially' was clearly referenced in my previous post, ('a specific kind of prejudice') so there is nothing added. Sorry if you were not capable of adding two and two together. I'll try to remember that in future.

So stop wriggling and tell me why you believe 'racial prejudice' is enough to make something racist.


Spymaster said:


> Ta da!
> 
> It seems belboid is the only one who doesn't get it.


Nope, its you two, I'm afraid. Once again, I'd ask you to answer the above question _without _making use of a circular argument.

Here's a clue - if your answer is 'it's racist when it's being used in a racist way' - that's a circular argument. Of no mre value than defining 'blue' as being 'something that is blue'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> 'racially' was clearly referenced in my previous post, ('a specific kind of prejudice') so there is nothing added. Sorry if you were not capable of adding two and two together. I'll try to remember that in future.
> 
> So stop wriggling and tell me why you believe 'racial prejudice' is enough to make something racist.
> 
> ...


But all kinds of words are only racist when being used in a racist way. I'll leave you to think of your own examples. So we have to think of context and intent when working out meaning. Hoodathunk?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But all kinds of words are only racist when being used in a racist way.


It's not a very useful definition of 'racist' is it? 

It's racist if it's racist.

Doesn't really get us very far.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Nope, its you two, I'm afraid.



Pretty sure there’s more than two if you count back?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Here's a clue - if your answer is 'it's racist when it's being used in a racist way' - that's a circular argument. Of no mre value than defining 'blue' as being 'something that is blue'.


Oh god . The term is racist when it's being used as a derogatory way to describe white people. In THAT context. Is that simple enough for you? 

You've wibbled and wobbled about all kinds of silliness; made up some daft comparison with domestic abuse; and now you're going to pretend ... what? 

Answer those questions and I reckon the penny will drop for you. Seriously. Just try it and see if you have a lightbulb moment.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But all kinds of words are only racist when being used in a racist way. I'll leave you to think of your own examples. So we have to think of context and intent when working out meaning. Hoodathunk?


This reasoning is apparently beyond the remit of his reasoning.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> It's racist if it's racist.


_It's racist if it's used in a *racially defamatory context! *
_
Fuck._ _


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Answer those questions and I reckon the penny will drop for you. Seriously. Just try it and see if you have a lightbulb moment.


The penny has, quite obviously, already dropped. Hence the ad homminess of recent posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> It's not a very useful definition of 'racist' is it?
> 
> It's racist if it's racist.
> 
> Doesn't really get us very far.


Not very far quite good for lbj


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Oh god . The term is racist when it's being used as a derogatory way to describe white people. In THAT context. Is that simple enough for you?
> 
> You've wibbled and wobbled about all kinds of silliness; made up some daft comparison with domestic abuse; and now you're going to pretend ... what?
> 
> Answer those questions and I reckon the penny will drop for you. Seriously. Just try it and see if you have a lightbulb moment.


I haven't wibbled at all, it seems some things are just too complex for you. Like things requiring more than one component. 

So, I disagree with your latest definition(s). A term has to be more than derogatory, even when used against a specfic racial grouping. The use of that term has to have some power behind it, something to back it up.  There's a reason why words like gammon, or honky, don't have the same power to offend behind them as the words used against people of colour.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> It's not a very useful definition of 'racist' is it?
> 
> It's racist if it's racist.
> 
> Doesn't really get us very far.


Racism isn't a very useful definition of racism? 

If a word is being used in a racially derogative manner, or as an 'ethnic slur', then how on earth is that not racism?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Racism isn't a very useful definition of racism?
> 
> If a word is being used in a racially derogative manner, or as an 'ethnic slur', then how on earth is that not racism?


Using a word to define itself is never helpful, is it? 

Now, as I've been saying all along, 'racially derogatory manner' or 'racially prejudiced manner' are both perfectly valid definitions. I just don't agree with them. Racism is prejudice/derogatory manner PLUS power.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> So, I disagree with your latest definition(s). A term has to be more than derogatory, even when used against a specfic racial grouping. The use of that term has to have some power behind it, something to back it up.  There's a reason why words like gammon, or honky, don't have the same power to offend behind them as the words used against people of colour.



Another swerve! Is it the power to offend or the intention of being offensive?


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Another swerve! Is it the power to offend or the intention of being offensive?


It's not a swerve, it's a direct answer. Sorry you can't recognise the difference.

And don't get me started on shite like 'offense'


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> If a word is being used in a racially derogative manner, or as an 'ethnic slur', then how on earth is that not racism?



He's just hiding now. He gets it but he won't answer the questions because he knows it'll collapse his silly stack of cards.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

Liberal fucking gammons.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

There's nothing as convincing as someone repeatedly insisting that they've won the argument.


----------



## Santino (Oct 23, 2018)

No, YOU'RE angry. I'm shitting myself with laughter here.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> And don't get me started on shite like 'offense'



YOU brought it up!  



> There's a reason why words like gammon, or honky, don't have the same power to offend behind them as the words used against people of colour.


----------



## belboid (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> YOU brought it up!


Fair point, for once. It's not really about 'offence' tho, is it? It's much more than that. But the anti-white words don't have the same of any kindf of power behind them as the anti-PoC ones, do they? Why is that?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Using a word to define itself is never helpful, is it?
> 
> Now, as I've been saying all along, 'racially derogatory manner' or 'racially prejudiced manner' are both perfectly valid definitions. I just don't agree with them. Racism is prejudice/derogatory manner PLUS power.


Does a white person spouting racial insults on a social media website hold any more power than a black person (or anyone who isn't white) doing the same?
If a black person in Africa (with an AK47) uses the term 'Gammon', could it possibly be racist? Or is racism reserved solely for white people?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Fair point, for once. It's not really about 'offence' tho, is it? It's much more than that. But the anti-white words don't have the same of any kindf of power behind them as the anti-PoC ones, do they? Why is that?


Some forms of racism are more hurtful than others. Again, hoodathunk?

Aside from anything else, I think your (re)definition is politically useless. Worse than that, it's politically divisive. What gain is there in downplaying racist attitudes like that?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

belboid said:


> Fair point, for once. It's not really about 'offence' tho, is it? It's much more than that. But the anti-white words don't have the same of any kindf of power behind them as the anti-PoC ones, do they?


No. But that doesn't mean they're not racist.

If I (as an Asian) call you a bullshitting gammon, with gammon referring to you being a white man and it being a term of abuse (however mild) in my community, I would be being racist.


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## sunnysidedown (Oct 23, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Does a white person spouting racial insults on a social media website hold any more power than a black person (or anyone who isn't white) doing the same?
> If a black person in Africa (with an AK47) uses the term 'Gammon', could it possibly be racist? Or is racism reserved solely for white people?



Christ. Thick as fuck.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

Because?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 23, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You don’t talk about black on black crime at all, do you?
> Don’t forget, it’s considered racist for me to do so, so it’s entirely your ball park.
> You said I didn’t discuss white on white crime yet you’ve been given an example of it this year.
> Where’s your examples?




Are you seriously not drunk? 

I manage to speak about a variety of violent situations without characterising them as White on White or Black on Black violence. You gave an example of discussing a situation where both the perp and the victim are white...you never once referred to them in that way in the thread though did you? So where is your actual example? I don't use the term 'working class' to mean White as you do. Why do you use the term 'WC' to mean White?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I know, it's just a fucking joke now.


His MO has been a shit joke for years.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 23, 2018)

Do you think the gammons or not-gammons or people of gammon or whatever you want to call them give a shit about any of this?

You'll be sat around trying hopelessly to sink each other's sneery-progressive battleships whilst ruddy-faced fucks of long-debated title are outside loading their fucking mantlepiece muskets and trying to ascend their pink peers to a wholly fictional version of the 17th century.


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

mauvais said:


> Do you think the gammons or not-gammons or people of gammon or whatever you want to call them give a shit about any of this?
> 
> You'll be sat around trying hopelessly to sink each other's sneery-progressive battleships whilst ruddy-faced fucks of long-debated title are outside loading their fucking mantlepiece muskets and trying to ascend their pink peers to a wholly fictional version of the 17th century.


You're, quite obviously, misunderstanding. You're (wrongly) assuming that 'gammon' is being used solely to describe ranting white people with power. This isn't the case.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 23, 2018)




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## Kaka Tim (Oct 23, 2018)

i think we should stop using the term "gammon" - we should refer to them as "people of ham".


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## mauvais (Oct 23, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> You're, quite obviously, misunderstanding. You're (wrongly) assuming that 'gammon' is being used solely to describe ranting white people with power. This isn't the case.


I know that's the tangent this thread has eventually gone off on. To try and reason why that's not important beyond this argumentative niche would be to engage in the very same folly as I'm pointing at, so I won't.


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## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

mauvais said:


> I know that's the tangent this thread has eventually gone off on.


It was the entire reason for the thread being started in the first place.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 23, 2018)

mauvais said:


> I know that's the tangent this thread has eventually gone off on. To try and reason why that's not important beyond this argumentative niche would be to engage in the very same folly as I'm pointing at, so I won't.


Except it isn't a tangent. It's the very root of the argument!
If you feel that racism isn't, and can't be, racism, unless it's dispensed by white people (of power?), then, IMHO, YOU are the niche.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It was the entire reason for the thread being started in the first place.



It was started cos you called the woman in the shop a fuckwit for calling out a white fascist cunt as gammon 

Fuckin gammon, for crying out loud!


----------



## mauvais (Oct 23, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Except it isn't a tangent. It's the very root of the argument!
> If you feel that racism isn't, and can't be, racism, unless it's dispensed by white people (of power?), then, IMHO, YOU are the niche.


No, a niche based on the term being applied to people beyond typical kipper stereotypes, which IME it's not common currency for.

I'm not going to make an argument on it because it's bedtime and also I can't be fucking bothered, but in relation to what you described, racism requiring there to be structural power, that's long been a view on here shared by many, and not so easily dismissed.


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## Spymaster (Oct 23, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> It was started cos you called the woman in the shop a fuckwit for calling out a white fascist cunt as gammon


Once again, I called out a young Asian girl's hypocrisy in calling out a white man for racism with some racial abuse of her own. The term is a thing among Asian kids (and other kids of colour I expect) at the moment. It has slipped its moorings from the original usage and is now used as by some as a slur to refer to any white people. I don't think that's ok. Sorry.


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## xenon (Oct 23, 2018)

Urban, where words have other (useless in scope) meanings... 
IRL most people understand the word racist to mean holding prejudicial views about others or another, based on their race, ethnicity, or granted, more debatable, country of origin. The power dynamics of a given situation may give context to that racism but the absence of a recognisable power differencial doesn't magic away the racism itself,  requiring the victim to choose some other descriptor to please bellends on the internet.

As for Gammon, I don't think it's racist in it's main use. A bit dodgey maybe. But in the context Spymaster has described it, is. This  because it has nothing to do with the supposed attitudes of the target, just skin colour.


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## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Once again, I called out a young Asian girl's hypocrisy in calling out a white man for racism with some racial abuse of her own. The term is a thing among Asian kids (and other kids of colour I expect) at the moment. It has slipped its moorings from the original usage and is now used as by some as a slur to refer to any white people.



Really? Gammon? I’d just laugh at a kid using that towards me.


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## Smangus (Oct 23, 2018)

Are bacons a ruddy faced  Irish subset of gammons?


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## 8ball (Oct 23, 2018)

Smangus said:


> Are bacons a ruddy faced  Irish subset of gammons?



Danish


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

xenon said:


> Urban, where words have other (useless in scope) meanings...
> IRL most people understand the word racist to mean holding prejudicial views about others or another, based on their race, ethnicity, or granted, more debatable, country of origin. The power dynamics of a given situation may give context to that racism but the absence of a recognisable power differencial doesn't magic away the racism itself,  requiring the victim to choose some other descriptor to please bellends on the internet.
> 
> As for Gammon, I don't think it's racist in it's main use. A bit dodgey maybe. But in the context Spymaster has described it, is. This  because it has nothing to do with the supposed attitudes of the target, just skin colour.


In it's main use?
You seem to be contradicting yourself here, massively. On one hand you're saying that racism is racism, regardless of power dynamics, and you absolutely disagree with it, then you go on to say that racism is ok, because you don't think it's racism? What if the 'gammon' thinks it is racism? Are you making decisions on their behalf? Are you deciding what is and isn't racism? Are you saying I shouldn't get pissed off if someone calls me a paddy?


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## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

Some words live in the margins between definitions.  

I don’t think this is a word that helps anyone.  We live in days of simplistic soundbites and arguments expressed in 100 characters or less.

If all the left can do is throw slurs back when some elements of the right are sharpening their arguments, we’re frankly fucked.  We’re on the verge of losing so much as it is with our stupid habit of only talking among ourselves.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 24, 2018)

Smangus said:


> Are Irish an ethnic group rather than race?





Magnus McGinty said:


> The Irish were always white, as inconvenient as that is to your hypotheses.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

I can't believe people here are condoning the use of racist terms, just because THEY don't believe they're racist.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 24, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> I can't believe people here are condoning the use of racist terms, just because THEY don't believe they're racist.



Which racist terms are people condoning?


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Which racist terms are people condoning?


Gammon, when used as a racist term.


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## xenon (Oct 24, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> In it's main use?
> You seem to be contradicting yourself here, massively. On one hand you're saying that racism is racism, regardless of power dynamics, and you absolutely disagree with it, then you go on to say that racism is ok, because you don't think it's racism? What if the 'gammon' thinks it is racism? Are you making decisions on their behalf? Are you deciding what is and isn't racism? Are you saying I shouldn't get pissed off if someone calls me a paddy?


 No contradiction. Its main use isn’t racist.  That use is talking about a  group with certain political views and  A tendency to get a bit red-faced.  and angry. 

 Of course  if someone is  having a go at you, making assumptions about you based on you being Irish, they are being racist.


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## krtek a houby (Oct 24, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> Gammon, when used as a racist term.



It's not being used by anyone here as a racist term, though. It's been used to take the piss out of a certain political demographic like the posh _actual racist_ git on Ryanair.


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

xenon said:


> No contradiction. Its main use isn’t racist.  That use is talking about a  group with certain political views and  A tendency to get a bit red-faced.  and angry.
> 
> Of course  if someone is  having a go at you, making assumptions about you based on you being Irish, they are being racist.


What about the new 'white power" symbol, which is predominantly used to mean OK. Do we allow that, too?


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> It's not being used by anyone here as a racist term, though. It's been used to take the piss out of a certain political demographic like the posh _actual racist_ git on Ryanair.


Most people here aren't racist, but most people aren't here.


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## xenon (Oct 24, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> What about the new 'white power" symbol, which is predominantly used to mean OK. Do we allow that, too?



 Don’t know anything about that one.  But if it’s being used by a white supremacist, yeah it’s racist  If it’s being used  by someone else  unaware of the white power meaning, just to mean okay  then there is no racist intent. It might still be perceived as a racist symbol by someone. But the intent is not there.


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

xenon said:


> Don’t know anything about that one.  But if it’s being used by a white supremacist, yeah it’s racist  If it’s being used  by someone else  unaware of the white power meaning, just to mean okay  then there is no racist intent. It might still be perceived as a racist symbol by someone. But the intent is not there.


But if it's being used as a white power symbol, then it is racist, regardless of whether some people are unaware of it.


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## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

Certain people have appropriated the 'gammon' slur, and they're using it as a racial slur. Regardless of its historical (?) definition, it's now being used as a racial slur, and its previous/historic use doesn't negate that fact.


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## Dogsauce (Oct 24, 2018)

I’ll frequently use the term when my infant son gets all pink and screamy, as babies do, describing him as having gone ‘full gammon’, or just referring to him as ‘the gammon’. Do I need to book myself a place at re-education camp?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> colonialism is a thing



I think I'm turning into my old man. People talk bollocks and don't make any sense these days. When did '[insert thing here] is a thing' become a worthy substitute for substantive argument? 

You never would have seen such obscene behaviour on these boards 5 years ago.

The decline of urban and civilisation more generally is a thing


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## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

it's not an argument
where does our contemporary understanding of race come from?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)




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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it's not an argument
> where does our contemporary understanding of race come from?



That’s a complex question and no doubt one that undergraduates everywhere are writing 2,000 word essays on. My answer would be from a range of sources but increasingly from postmodern/poststructural thought. 

Why?


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## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

because ignoring colonialism and imperialism turns racism into people being mean to each other which is useless except to naturalise race and obscure the violence that created it

the influence of postmodernism/poststructuralism is massively overstated


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> because ignoring colonialism and imperialism turns racism into people being mean to each other which is useless except to naturalise race and obscure the violence that created it
> 
> the influence of postmodernism/poststructuralism is massively overstated



I don’t agree with your latter point. We can add the postcolonial academy to the list as well.

As to your first point that’s true generally speaking  but who has been doing that on this thread?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> because ignoring colonialism and imperialism turns racism into people being mean to each other which is useless except to naturalise race and obscure the violence that creates it
> 
> the influence of postmodernism/poststructuralism is massively overstated


Do people on the receiving end of racism give a shit about the historical reasons for it?


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 24, 2018)

And what's this meant to be?



lucillemara said:


>


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don’t agree with your latter point. We can add the postcolonial academy to the list as well.
> 
> As to your first point that’s true generally speaking  but who has been doing that on this thread?



it seems to be the favoured definition of most people here, otherwise people wouldn't be so passionate about affirming the existence of racism against white people

I think academic theories are mostly post-hoc and reflect political arrangements that already exist whether in the academy or in society in general


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> And what's this meant to be?



this thread


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 24, 2018)

Eh? Go for a full sentence, anytime 
You may find that when you use your words, the pointless stupidity of your posts becomes clearer.

EtA, too early for this. I'll leave it. But pick your shit up ffs. It's depressing even for 2018.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Do people on the receiving end of racism give a shit about the historical reasons for it?



if you're talking about anti-white sentiment, obviously not as we have seen
otherwise I think many people do


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it seems to be the favoured definition of most people here, otherwise people wouldn't be so passionate about affirming the existence of racism against white people
> 
> I think academic theories are mostly post-hoc and reflect political arrangements that already exist whether in the academy or in society in general



I am genuinely at a loss to understand how the comments on this thread have led you to conclude that urban posters do not recognise the historical reality of colonialism and imperialism and power relations and the contemporary consequences.

As I’m sure you know, contemporary understandings of race arent linear.

Explain to me then how you’ve drawn this conclusion and what evidence exists for it


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it seems to be the favoured definition of most people here, otherwise people wouldn't be so passionate about affirming the existence of racism against white people
> 
> I think academic theories are mostly post-hoc and reflect political arrangements that already exist whether in the academy or in society in general



What would you call the attitude that existed in Britain towards Irish people? The Punch caricatures of Irish people drawn with thickened brows and pot bellies...drunk...and dishevelled? The ads in Windows in the 50s 60s 70s..."No Blacks No Irish"?
Do you think that there was no racism intended because they happened to be white skinned so it couldn't be racism? Or is this all part of the colonial narrative too? Consider that Ireland was no longer a colony in the 50s and 60s and 70s. And yet many Irish immigrants were disdained in Britain by ordinary people. Made fun of because of their accents..or poor appearance.. or just being a "Paddy".
Racism? Or not...? White racism against white people? Or not?
Racism is surely an attitude of superiority over and discrimination against another person based on their race, ethnicity, country of origin, skin colour
..... perhaps racism is any and all the above...?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I am genuinely at a loss to understand how the comments on this thread have led you to conclude that urban posters do not recognise the historical reality of colonialism and imperialism and power relations and the contemporary consequences.
> 
> As I’m sure you know, contemporary understandings of race arent linear.
> 
> Explain to me then how you’ve drawn this conclusion and what evidence exists for it



when I tried to link whiteness to colonialism people mocked me for it precisely because I was not using a linear or static definition of race - of course Irish people have always been white and therefore anti-Irish racism is an example of racism against white people!!! etc. that evidence is in the thread. people are equivocating between "racism against white people" as racism against anyone they would consider white and "racism against white people" as racism people experience for being white (far right talking point) - and insisting an an ahistorical presentist and idealist notion of race to make that work

would anti-irish racism exist without colonial violence? have black and asian people colonised britain?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> But if it's being used as a white power symbol, then it is racist, regardless of whether some people are unaware of it.


Asking a butcher for a gammon joint or a diver giving the OK sign is obviously not racist and I think the definition of racism with regards to power dynamics that some are using here is only half the picture. xenon is right; if someone's _intention_ is to cause offence or ridicule by referring to the colour of another's skin, that's racist.The power dynamics between those involved may compound the weight of the racism, but it's still racism.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

fascists like to say "it's ok to be white" because it sounds inoffensive enough without context. is it racist to disagree with them? is it racist to oppose white pride? is accusing racist white liberal feminists of "white feminism" an example of racism against white people? is "all lives matter" an anti-racist statement?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

My hayfever's playing up again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> fascists like to say "it's ok to be white" because it sounds inoffensive enough without context. is it racist to disagree with them? is it racist to oppose white pride? is accusing racist white liberal feminists of "white feminism" an example of racism against white people? is "all lives matter" an anti-racist statement?


What do you think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> when I tried to link whiteness to colonialism people mocked me for it precisely because I was not using a linear or static definition of race - of course Irish people have always been white and therefore anti-Irish racism is an example of racism against white people!!! etc. that evidence is in the thread. people are equivocating between "racism against white people" as racism against anyone they would consider white and "racism against white people" as racism people experience for being white (far right talking point) - and insisting an an ahistorical presentist and idealist notion of race to make that work
> 
> would anti-irish racism exist without colonial violence? have black and asian people colonised britain?


Where you're going wrong is by saying one thing and upon its refutation going "ah but I did not mean what I said, I meant this instead", that is by being dishonest

You said in effect white people do not experience racism. But there are many, many examples of that. Then you said white people do not experience racism on the basis of their being white, which is rather different. But in response to *that*, do you think the murder of for example Richard Everitt was a racist killing? There are all sorts of racism, some of greater and others of lesser frequency and occurrence, and while I would admit racism against white people as a group is ime rare, I would not deny its existence.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ...is it racist to disagree with them?


It's certainly fucking stupid. And memes like "it's ok to be white" wouldn't get any traction at all if it wasn't for idiots like you insisting that anti-white racism doesn't exist.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

how do we avoid racism against white people? when I did a course on american history a lot of white people thought it was racist, because it didn't make white people look very nice. the press relentlessly harasses and abuses any non-white academic suspected of anti-whiteness while white supremacist historians are minor celebrities. is it racist for black people to complain about white people among themselves while discussing racism they have experienced? should they go out of their way to emphasise they don't mean all white people?


----------



## Wolveryeti (Oct 24, 2018)

Butcher, I'll have a kilo of your best salt-cured porcine meat in Pantone 700c.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> how do we avoid racism against white people?


Call it where you see it and don't deny its existence.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Where you're going wrong is by saying one thing and upon its refutation going "ah but I did not mean what I said, I meant this instead", that is by being dishonest



where did I do that? I would have phrased things more carefully if I knew the bad faith equivocation was coming, but I fail to see what has been refuted except for what was left of my faith in the white left's anti-racism- the entire thread is about "racism against white people" for being white, which has nothing to do with racism against or between people who are considered white in certain times or places. this isn't difficult and I don't believe you don't understand this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> where did I do that? I would have phrased things more carefully if I knew the bad faith equivocation was coming, but I fail to see what has been refuted except for what was left of my faith in the white left's anti-racism- the entire thread is about "racism against white people" for being white, which has nothing to do with racism against or between people who are considered white in certain times or places. this isn't difficult and I don't believe you don't understand this.


On this very thread as well you know

As for what you believe I care not a jot


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Call it where you see it and don't deny its existence.



no

under white supremacy there is no reason other than racism to consider "anti-white racism" a thing


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

when michael richards made a lynching threat and repeatedly used the n word at a black heckler, the heckler responded with "cracker". both sides just as bad right?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> under white supremacy there is no reason other than racism to consider "anti-white racism" a thing


You're doing a great job of demonstrating otherwise.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

why isn't there a white history month? blatant racism against white people!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> when michael richards made a lynching threat and repeatedly used the n word at a black heckler, the heckler responded with "cracker". both sides just as bad right?


You just can't help shuffling things around


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no
> 
> under white supremacy there is no reason other than racism to consider "anti-white racism" a thing


Yeah spy you racist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> why isn't there a white history month? blatant racism against white people!


Because just like every day is children's day, the vast majority of history in this country is written by and about white people. I can't believe you don't know that.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah spy you racist.


I'm the biggest gammon on the boards too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I'm the biggest gammon on the boards too.


With a clear resemblance to David Duchovny out of the x-files


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

I'm trying to say that racism is an actual thing that actually happens in the actual world due to actual power differentials that actually exist due to actual social and historical activity, and can't be abstracted into "thought experiments" where everything is otherwise equal so that a racial class that only exists due to violence can play victim.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm trying say that racism is an actual thing that actually happens in the actual world due to actual power differentials that actually exist due to actual social and historical activity, and can't be abstracted into "thought experiments" where everything is otherwise equal so that a racial class that only exists due to violence can play victim.


Go on then


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

I just did

no one else seems interested in why the concept of whiteness exists


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I just did
> 
> no one else seems interested in why the concept of whiteness exists


You see? You could have asked that way up the thread and not pissed about with your goalpost moving antics?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm trying to say that racism is an actual thing that actually happens in the actual world due to actual power differentials that actually exist due to actual social and historical activity ...


It happens for other reasons in other circumstances too.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

I never moved any goalpoasts. people kept insisting "white" was a static property that _of course_ has always been attributed to people we consider white today.



Spymaster said:


> It happens for other reasons in other circumstances too.



idealism and magical thinking


----------



## xenon (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> when michael richards made a lynching threat and repeatedly used the n word at a black heckler, the heckler responded with "cracker". both sides just as bad right?



Whos saying all racism’s the same?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

xenon said:


> Whos saying all racism’s the same?



the heckler was racist? should he be condemned too?


----------



## xenon (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> why isn't there a white history month? blatant racism against white people!



More strawmen the.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

was the haitian revolution racist against white people?


----------



## xenon (Oct 24, 2018)

It seems it’s you that wants to Washaway context. You can’t use this word because it always means this.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Board with this twat. At least Bellend tries to justify his ignorance.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

I'm being prescriptive, I'm saying people shouldn't use the word in obfuscating ways to downplay white supremacy


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

anyway fuck white people, kill them all. ban me you cunts.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm saying people shouldn't use the word in obfuscating ways to downplay white supremacy


Good job nobody has done that then.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 24, 2018)




----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> anyway fuck white people, kill them all. ban me you cunts.


Lots of long words I don't understand then poorly worded abuse. 
Bit lame really.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

It's like a slightly more intelligent version of Sam Ambreen.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2018)

I think they've gone, maybe to burn a school down or something...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Lots of long words I don't understand then poorly worded abuse.
> Bit lame really.


lots of long words they don't understand then poorly worded abuse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> anyway fuck white people, kill them all. ban me you cunts.


you should have said that to start with


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> you should have said that to start with


Easily understood. Pithy.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 24, 2018)

Right off the top of my head, and I'm ready and willing to be corrected because this is guesswork, I'd say that in Europe where manual agricultural work made people go brown then a way of spotting people who lived off surplus value was that they managed to remain 'gentle men' and 'fair ladies'. It was how to spot people who didn't work, or who worked without getting dirty.

'White collar' and 'blue collar' is much the same idea.

I daresay other places came up with other ways of doing much the same. Brahmins must have had a way of spotting each other. 


It's interesting that when the term 'white n-----' came up it was used when and where this system got broken. It was a common term in 19th C United States for Irish people and apparently for French Canadians at much the same time.

So it's symbolic of more power and status, even when that's largely imaginary as in the situation of poor white people in the Southern States.

Whether or not 'racist' only means how the historic oppressor describes the historically oppressed is a matter for usage. That seems to be part of this debate. Either way I think that if PoC or other white people use terms for white people like 'gammon' it plays into those white people's hands. 

And it probably needs a word to describe it.

As I said before it's highly tempting to give people who bandy around words like 'snowflakes, cucks, remoaners' as if that was a sensible thing to do a bit of their own medicine, but really it's descending to their level of discourse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Right off the top of my head, and I'm ready and willing to be corrected because this is guesswork, I'd say that in Europe where manual agricultural work made people go brown then a way of spotting people who lived off surplus value was that they managed to remain 'gentle men' and 'fair ladies'. It was how to spot people who didn't work, or who worked without getting dirty.


alternatively they could have just looked at their hands. and you seem to have missed the entire chivalry / military service thing among the ruling classes


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> alternatively they could have just looked at their hands. and you seem to have missed the entire chivalry / military service thing among the ruling classes



So fighting on a horse was more noble than fighting on foot, because it showed you had a horse.

And could run away more easily!

You're right about hands, but they couldn't be seen from such a distance.


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I just did
> 
> no one else seems interested in why the concept of whiteness exists



I'm interested in that point, and some if the others you've made. But you seem to skip from one to another, with little coherence.

What's the central point you're trying to make? It's it that people who are considered white (at a given time and place) cannot be victims of racism, because racism requires more than racial predjudice; to be a victim of racism requires being part of a group that is oppressed on racial grounds because of structural power differentials (regardless of relative individual power dynamics in the specific incident)?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> was the haitian revolution racist against white people?



No.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> So fighting on a horse was more noble than fighting on foot, because it showed you had a horse.
> 
> And could run away more easily!
> 
> You're right about hands, but they couldn't be seen from such a distance.


nothing to do with that, you're on about people from the lower orders being tanned / dirty. so would campaigning or practicing soldiers.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> As I said before it's highly tempting to give people who bandy around words like 'snowflakes, cucks, remoaners' as if that was a sensible thing to do a bit of their own medicine, but really it's descending to their level of discourse.


When I used to take racial abuse as a kid I used to get incredibly frustrated that there were no insults for white people of equal weight that I could respond with, so I get why today's PoC youngsters are co-opting some of these terms. In most cases it's seen as retaliatory but that doesn't make it right or even effective in achieving their aims. In many cases I disagree that one shouldn't descend to an opponent’s level as it's quite often an effective tactic. I use it frequently. With regards to racist language though, it propagates stuff like "it's ok to be white" and perpetuates the nastiness.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Imperialism leaves behind germs of rot which we must clinically detect and remove from our land but from our minds as well. - Fanon

The problem of the twenty-first century, then, is the problem of the color-blind. This problem is simple: it believes that to redress racism, we need to not consider race in social practice, notably in the sphere of governmental action. The state, we are told, must be above race. ... We are led to believe that racism is prejudicial behavior of one party against another rather than the coagulation of socioeconomic injustice against groups. If the state acts without prejudice (this is, if it acts equally), then that is proof of the end of racism. Unequal socioeconomic conditions of today, based as they are on racisms of the past and of the present, are thereby rendered untouchable by the state. Color-blind justice privatizes inequality and racism, and it removes itself from the project of redistributive and anti-racist justice. This is the genteel racism of our new millennium. - Prashad


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> Imperialism leaves behind germs of rot which we must clinically detect and remove from our land but from our minds as well. - Fanon
> 
> The problem of the twenty-first century, then, is the problem of the color-blind. This problem is simple: it believes that to redress racism, we need to not consider race in social practice, notably in the sphere of governmental action. The state, we are told, must be above race. ... We are led to believe that racism is prejudicial behavior of one party against another rather than the coagulation of socioeconomic injustice against groups. If the state acts without prejudice (this is, if it acts equally), then that is proof of the end of racism. Unequal socioeconomic conditions of today, based as they are on racisms of the past and of the present, are thereby rendered untouchable by the state. Color-blind justice privatizes inequality and racism, and it removes itself from the project of redistributive and anti-racist justice. This is the genteel racism of our new millennium. - Prashad


Athos asked you a question above. Why not have a go at debating with him? He often has more patience than others.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

my answer would be yes, that is vaguely what I'm getting at


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 24, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> So fighting on a horse was more noble than fighting on foot, because it showed you had a horse.
> 
> And could run away more easily!
> 
> You're right about hands, but they couldn't be seen from such a distance.



You can feel a hand when you shake it though. people, especially men IMO, still judge each other by their handshake. And rough/smooth does come into that judgement.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2018)

That's Prashad the cheerer on of assad's barrel bombing of civilians sectarian death squads and toture/rape cells. Good guide.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

yeah and marx raped his maid, so what


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2018)

Yeah, so what.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> my answer would be yes, that is vaguely what I'm getting at



because whiteness is inherently violent and would not exist without the need to justify the congenital inferiority of colonised and subjugated populations


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah, so what.



assadism and rape are both awful, so either we drop them both or we take what we can use and drop the rest, both valid responses

do you disagree with the quote? it seems fairly self evident to me


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> assadism and rape are both awful, so either we drop them both or we take what we can use and drop the rest, both valid responses
> 
> do you disagree with the quote? it seems fairly self evident to me


Zero interest after that prior response.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> Imperialism leaves behind germs of rot which we must clinically detect and remove from our land but from our minds as well. - Fanon
> 
> The problem of the twenty-first century, then, is the problem of the color-blind. This problem is simple: it believes that to redress racism, we need to not consider race in social practice, notably in the sphere of governmental action. The state, we are told, must be above race. ... We are led to believe that racism is prejudicial behavior of one party against another rather than the coagulation of socioeconomic injustice against groups. If the state acts without prejudice (this is, if it acts equally), then that is proof of the end of racism. Unequal socioeconomic conditions of today, based as they are on racisms of the past and of the present, are thereby rendered untouchable by the state. Color-blind justice privatizes inequality and racism, and it removes itself from the project of redistributive and anti-racist justice. This is the genteel racism of our new millennium. - Prashad


yeh but what do you think?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

white people are too easily offended


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> because whiteness is inherently violent and would not exist without the need to justify the congenital inferiority of colonised and subjugated populations



There are 3 problems that I would highlight here:

1. This is a sweeping statement that unless you contextualize properly is likely to receive challenge. Can you do that?
2. Have your studies detected a link/an overlap/some interconnection/some liminality between the development of the market economy, the interests of international or haute finance and imperialism/colonialism? 

Could we even suggest that there were limits to the subjugation, for example where it might threaten the interests of the unfettered market economy or for example where those benefiting from it were, in fact, PoC? 

3. Can I honestly suggest that instead of firing off accusations you calm down and debate with people here. Whilst there are some bellends on here there are also a lot of posters who could help develop and deepen your understanding and offer different perspectives for you to think about. That's not meant to be patronising by the way.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> white people are too easily offended


Nobody here is offended. If you think they are, you misread the situation.

Also, advisable to take note of what happened earlier in the thread - don't assume you know the race of the posters here. You're likely to fall on your face if you do that.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara, just for clarity, you are white yourself,  right?


----------



## Santino (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nobody here is offended. If you think they are, you misread the situation.
> 
> Also, advisable to take note of what happened earlier in the thread - don't assume you know the race of the posters here. You're likely to fall on your face if you do that.


There is a good deal of pearl-clutching though.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> There are 3 problems that I would highlight here:
> 
> 1. This is a sweeping statement that unless you contextualize properly is likely to receive challenge. Can you do that?
> 2. Have your studies detected a link/an overlap/some interconnection/some liminality between the development of the market economy, the interests of international or haute finance and imperialism/colonialism?
> ...



1. I don't know, what are the standards
2. a) yes but I don't know enough about it b) of course, "honorary whites" etc
3. I honestly thought most people would be beyond this colour blind nonsense, it's disappointing to see


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> lucillemara, just for clarity, you are white yourself,  right?



yes. what I'm trying to say doesn't originate from white people, but I'm obviously not the best person to be putting it across and only did so because no one else seemed to be doing it


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

Athos said:


> I'm interested in that point, and some if the others you've made. But you seem to skip from one to another, with little coherence.
> 
> What's the central point you're trying to make? It's it that people who are considered white (at a given time and place) cannot be victims of racism, because racism requires more than racial predjudice; to be a victim of racism requires being part of a group that is oppressed on racial grounds because of structural power differentials (regardless of relative individual power dynamics in the specific incident)?


That's pretty much it.


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> because whiteness is inherently violent and would not exist without the need to justify the congenital inferiority of colonised and subjugated populations



Please would you expand a bit on what you mean, here?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yes. what I'm trying to say doesn't originate from white people, but I'm obviously not the best person to be putting it across and only did so because no one else seemed to be doing it


So can a white person be racist towards white people?

This bloke has made statements that if said by a PoC would undoubtedly be racist and at least one that would be legally actionable.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

Just a student cunt.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yes. what I'm trying to say doesn't originate from white people, but I'm obviously not the best person to be putting it across and only did so because no one else seemed to be doing it


One mistake you're making is thinking that either one understands the things you've been saying or one has a simple definition of the word racism that doesn't itself incorporate all that. Unless you define 'racist' as something that, in our society at least, a black person cannot be towards a white person, you don't understand the origins and causes of racism. Do you honestly think you've been posting revelatory insight to people here?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

no and that's what's disappointing. this stuff should be already assumed.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no and that's what's disappointing. this stuff should be already assumed.


Are we a bit backward?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

To be fair, he's really not too far away from the guff that belboid was posting yesterday.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> To be fair, he's really not too far away from the guff that belboid was posting yesterday.


Its the same arguement for sure and a fair few people hold the same stance. This one though puts it across in a manner helpful only to the right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no and that's what's disappointing. this stuff should be already assumed.


yeh. the murder of richard everitt - racist or not?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yes. what I'm trying to say doesn't originate from white people, but I'm obviously not the best person to be putting it across and only did so because no one else seemed to be doing it


next time you think you see a similar space, think once, think twice, and consider that from the evidence on this thread the auld adage 'if you want a job done properly do it yourself' doesn't apply.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So can a white person be racist towards white people?



only if the victim's relationship whiteness is ambiguous and conditional, eg. irish, italians, ashkenazi jews, slavs, specific types of racism not just anti-white



Athos said:


> Please would you expand a bit on what you mean, here?



the beneficiaries of colonial violence need to separate themselves from their victims and a good way to do that is by asserting their natural superiority in racial terms, the pseudoscience of race describes why certain classes are inherently suited to certain types of labour and deserving or not of violence. this goes back to aristotle but in modern terms European colonialism, slavery and genocide the most important factors.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Just a student cunt.



Good to have some young blood in - I remember when this place was student cunts as far as the eye could see...

<looks wistfully into distance>


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Its the same arguement for sure and a fair few people hold the same stance.


I know. Did you lot go to lefty Sunday school to get indoctrinated with this shit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> only if the victim's relationship whiteness is ambiguous and conditional, eg. irish, italians, ashkenazi jews, slavs, specific types of racism not just anti-white
> 
> 
> 
> the beneficiaries of colonial violence need to separate themselves from their victims and a good way to do that is by asserting their natural superiority in racial terms, the pseudoscience of race describes why certain classes are inherently suited to certain types of labour and deserving or not of violence. this goes back to aristotle but in modern terms European colonialism, slavery and genocide the most important factors.


killing of richard everitt - racist or not?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. the murder of richard everitt - racist or not?



no and this obsession with brutality against white people is unseemly and a common theme in fascist discourse

I've also never been a student except for 6th form college so I don't know why that keeps coming up


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no and this obsession with brutality against white people is unseemly and a common theme in fascist discourse
> 
> I've also never been a student except for 6th form college so I don't know why that keeps coming up


May I ask your age?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no and this obsession with brutality against white people is unseemly and a common theme in fascist discourse
> 
> I've also never been a student except for 6th form college so I don't know why that keeps coming up


i have said nothing about students so that's a lie for a start.

as for richard everitt, the killing was widely considered to be racist. i've got no obsession with brutality against white people (indeed, if you actually read and engaged with what's been said you'd have seen i said that racism against white people on the basis of being white people was rare). could you tell me though on what basis you say 'no'?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no and this obsession with brutality against white people is unseemly and a common theme in fascist discourse
> 
> I've also never been a student except for 6th form college so I don't know why that keeps coming up


What obsession?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What obsession?



Obsession for (white) men


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> only if the victim's relationship whiteness is ambiguous and conditional, eg. irish, italians, ashkenazi jews, slavs, specific types of racism not just anti-white
> 
> 
> 
> the beneficiaries of colonial violence need to separate themselves from their victims and a good way to do that is by asserting their natural superiority in racial terms, the pseudoscience of race describes why certain classes are inherently suited to certain types of labour and deserving or not of violence. this goes back to aristotle but in modern terms European colonialism, slavery and genocide the most important factors.



Thanks. I'm getting closer to understanding what you're saying. But my biggest question would be what's the political utility of such a conception of racism?  How does it undermine that pseudoscience of race?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara perhaps you could outline how, against the evidence presented to the court, the murder of richard everitt was not racist?


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 150507
> lucillemara perhaps you could outline how, against the evidence presented to the court, the murder of richard everitt was not racist?



They've effectively already done that. Essentially, that it can't be racist because the perpetrators didn't have race-based structural power as compared to the victim.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it's not an argument
> where does our contemporary understanding of race come from?



Different strokes?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 24, 2018)

What about situations where a black person does have power. 

lucillemara has made comments elsewhere about the ‘Macho-left’ being beastly towards those with mental illness. 

Does black MH nurses racially abusing white MH patients (on the basis of their ‘whiteness’) count as racism according to the ‘power plus prejudice’ definition?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no and this obsession with brutality against white people is unseemly and a common theme in fascist discourse
> 
> I've also never been a student except for 6th form college so I don't know why that keeps coming up



Is that where you studied American history?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Obsession for (white) men


----------



## Gromit (Oct 24, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What about situations where a black person does have power.
> 
> lucillemara has made comments elsewhere about the ‘Macho-left’ being beastly towards those with mental illness.
> 
> Does black MH nurses racially abusing white MH patients (on the basis of their ‘whiteness’) count as racism according to the ‘power plus prejudice’ definition?





> Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.



The key word people seem to be missing is 'belief'. It doesn't matter if the belief is true or not, they merely have to hold the belief.

Poor unemployed rednecks in America thinking they are superior to Japanese citizens with well paid tech jobs doesn't means it's not racism just because the Japaneese worker actually has the power.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> anyway fuck white people, kill them all. ban me you cunts.


Are you incapable of just leaving? No will power? Need an authority figure to do your bidding for you?


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

editor said:


> Are you incapable of just leaving? No will power? Need an authority figure to do your bidding for you?



Who is it?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> when I tried to link whiteness to colonialism people mocked me for it precisely because I was not using a linear or static definition of race - of course Irish people have always been white and therefore anti-Irish racism is an example of racism against white people!!! etc. that evidence is in the thread. people are equivocating between "racism against white people" as racism against anyone they would consider white and "racism against white people" as racism people experience for being white (far right talking point) - and insisting an an ahistorical presentist and idealist notion of race to make that work
> 
> would anti-irish racism exist without colonial violence? have black and asian people colonised britain?


Thing is though, I'm sure pretty much everyone on here knows the debate about whether race is connected to colonialism, whether 'privileged groups' can be subject to racism (and will have very different positions on it). But in the gammon thing its a situation where the definition of racism isn't really the issue. It was a mildly amusing idea when first used -  the image of the 6 blokes in the question time audience - but then starts to look a bit dodgy the more it is used. Its imprecise, as this thread has shown: is it about attitudes, is it about a loss of certainties for a certain age group, is it about class? Similarly, has it gained traction post brexit?  I like the point that was made earlier about it being used (problematically) by liberal, young activists.

The bit about whether gammon 'is racist' is up for debate - probably not much debate as gammon is a shit term anyway. But whether it is _racism_ or _racial prejudice_ to me isn't that important. The debate is/should be simply whether it has a particular ethnic/gendered group in mind - white men.  It's about whether it has an ethnic _target_ - but that gets lost if the whole thing has to meet a theory test in terms of colonialism. In other words, the issue of whether there is a 'left behind', middle aged group of shouty men get's lost and the whole things becomes an inter-left/liberal spat.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I know. Did you lot go to lefty Sunday school to get indoctrinated with this shit?


I recollect Linda Bellos asserting the same 35 years ago and graspers like Lee Jasper chuck the concept about as a shield to deflect accusations that he is a racist cunt.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yeah and marx raped his maid, so what


FFS, to think I've just tried to make a sensible response to you. Feel dirty now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> FFS, to think I've just tried to make a sensible response to you. Feel dirty now.


mind bleach help?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> mind bleach help?


When you have finished with it pass it over...


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 24, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Different strokes?



What you talking about, Spiney?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> When you have finished with it pass it over...


I get it on prescription and sell it on to the young 'uns.


----------



## andysays (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> only if the victim's relationship whiteness is ambiguous and conditional, eg. irish, italians, ashkenazi jews, slavs, specific types of racism not just anti-white
> 
> 
> 
> the beneficiaries of colonial violence need to separate themselves from their victims and a good way to do that is by asserting their natural superiority in racial terms, the pseudoscience of race describes why certain classes are inherently suited to certain types of labour and deserving or not of violence. this goes back to aristotle but in modern terms European colonialism, slavery and genocide the most important factors.


Are all 'white' people beneficiaries of colonial violence? If so, are they all equal beneficiaries?

Are no 'non-white' people beneficiaries of colonial violence?

Are all 'non-white' people victims of colonial violence, and if so are they all equally victims?

I ask all this because your statements and characterisations seem to me a little simplistic


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

of course they are, I'm not writing a thesis. no to your questions. but without colonial violence there would be no white people.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)




----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> of course they are, I'm not writing a thesis. no to your questions. but without colonial violence there would be no white people.


What's the point of just repeating these formulas?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 150507
> lucillemara perhaps you could outline how, against the evidence presented to the court, the murder of richard everitt was not racist?



britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> What's the point of just repeating these formulas?



because people claim they don't get it and keep asking me to clarify. because I think the abstract view of racism that seems to be the majority view here is actually dangerous and reactionary and should always be challenged.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence


Here, have 50 Troll Points.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> britain is white supremacist


Can you unpack that statement for us?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Jesus.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence


did you know that karl marx made great use of british government documents as authorities when he was writing capital?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Can you unpack that statement for us?


he couldn't unpack groceries.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> because people claim they don't get it and keep asking me to clarify. because I think


no you don't


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence


Viz may have an opening for you. They are always on the lookout for new characters.


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> britain is white supremacist and it's bizarre to see putative leftists using its legal system as an authority on racial violence



Even if that were true, it's not obvious how that links to your central point?  And you've not replied to my question about the political utility of the conception of racism you've chosen.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> of course they are, I'm not writing a thesis. no to your questions. but without colonial violence there would be no white people.


Without racism there would be no white people and black people.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

My antennae are shot, but I'm still getting the returnee/troll vibe. Nobody can do this stuff for real... _can they_?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Is that where you studied American history?



no that was school and a short city lit course



littlebabyjesus said:


> Can you unpack that statement for us?



I don't know how to make it clearer. white supremacy is the hegemonic racial ideology and there's no outside of it. this is obvious. british people have largely positive views of the empire. scholars with critical views are relentlessly attacked by the press. the british museum exists. the windrush scandal happened. black men are murdered by police. our genocide in yemen is mostly ignored. but those poor white south african farmers aren't lacking for our sympathy.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> My antennae are shot, but I'm still getting the returnee/troll vibe. Nobody can do this stuff for real... _can they_?



You've never met a sociology student?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 24, 2018)

I was wondering _how_ this thread had run to so many pages.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Viz may have an opening for you. They are always on the lookout for new characters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no that was school and a short city lit course


yeh. the city lit is not a sixth form college


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 24, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I was wondering _how_ this thread had run to so many pages.


more beef than gammon


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Athos said:


> Even if that were true, it's not obvious how that links to your central point?  And you've not replied to my question about the political utility of the conception of racism you've chosen.



because obscuring the origins of racism always, always leads to white people playing the victim, and in a white dominated society any challenge to white supremacy is deemed to be anti-white (this was the majority white view of MLK and the 60s US civil rights movement at the time despite liberal revisionism).


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 150517


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. the city lit is not a sixth form college



I also went to sixth form college but I didn't study history there. is reading that hard?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

So how does a school approach this subject? Two kids hurling racially charged abuse at one another in the playground are called in, and the whole class is given a talk on racism. What is said? Now then children, this white child calling a black child nasty names because they are black is being racist, but this black child calling a white child nasty names because they are white isn't being racist, merely prejudiced by race, because there is an unequal power dynamic, from which arose our racial categories in the first place, meaning that only the white child can be racist in this situation. Now run along children, and be nice to each other, but remember _you_ can be racist, while _you_ cannot...

Doesn't work. The attempt to be sophisticated results in the reverse of its intention - in confusion and simplistic nonsensical contradictions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I don't know how to make it clearer.


perhaps you should give the matter some thought





> white supremacy is the hegemonic racial ideology and there's no outside of it. this is obvious. british people have largely positive views of the empire. scholars with critical views are relentlessly attacked by the press.


are they really? sure you'll be able to give us some examples of this.





> the british museum exists.


well spotted





> the windrush scandal happened. black men are murdered by police.


yeh we all know the government and police are racist





> our genocide in yemen is mostly ignored.


what genocide would this be?





> but those poor white south african farmers aren't lacking for our sympathy.


just chucked in for good measure i suppose


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> what genocide would this be?



are you fucking serious


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> n
> I don't know how to make it clearer. white supremacy is the hegemonic racial ideology and there's no outside of it. this is obvious. british people have largely positive views of the empire. scholars with critical views are relentlessly attacked by the press. the british museum exists. the windrush scandal happened. black men are murdered by police. our genocide in yemen is mostly ignored. but those poor white south african farmers aren't lacking for our sympathy.


Right, none of these ideas is contested? But you're contesting them. Who is this 'our'? Doesn't include me. Appears not to include you either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> are you fucking serious


i'll take that as an admission of inability to answer


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Right, none of these ideas is contested? But you're contesting them. Who is this 'our'? Doesn't include me. Appears not to include you either.



of course it includes me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I also went to sixth form college but I didn't study history there. is reading that hard?


i never said you did study history


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

.





Pickman's model said:


> i'll take that as an admission of inability to answer



if you're a genocide denier you're a much bigger piece of shit than I initially assumed


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> of course it includes me.


returning unwillingly to your genocide in yemen...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> of course it includes me.


how so? You're so trapped inside your britishness that you cannot but have sympathy for 'those poor white south african farmers' while 'mostly ignoring' 'our genocide in Yemen'?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> returning unwillingly to your genocide in yemen...



it's fucking hilarious isn't it. no wonder everyone hates us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> .
> 
> if you're a genocide denier you're a much bigger piece of shit than I initially assumed


i've asked you about it.

you've declined to answer.

how's about you put up or shut up?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

no. fuck you


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it's fucking hilarious isn't it. no wonder everyone hates us.


us?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> more beef than gammon


It was going pretty well until belboid started throwing personal abuse about. Again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

littleseb said:


> us?


the royal wee


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no. fuck you


all mouth and no trousers


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

I'm magically separate from the empire that created me! I'm one of the good ones! nothing I consume comes from stolen labour!


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 24, 2018)

It's entering into dangerous territory to say that the racism of white people is different from the racism of high caste people in India, or of Han Chinese to non-Han, or of Finns to ethnic Lapps and so on. It's fudging to say that it's only when whiteness is temporarily redefined that it happens, though that clearly does happen eg in the case of 'white n......s'.

The racism of white people may be worse than than that of others, it's probably more widespread and has probably had more intellectual underpinnings over the years. But to say that it's somehow not another construct to reflect an essentially capitalist structure in origin would only leave only levels of melanin being the reason. Which would be odd.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm magically separate from the empire that created me! I'm one of the good ones! nothing I consume comes from stolen labour!


The processes of stolen labour know no bounds of nation or race. British history should teach you that if nothing else. Vicious, murderous exploitation of workers, at home and abroad, fuelled the Industrial Revolution.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So how does a school approach this subject? Two kids hurling racially charged abuse at one another in the playground are called in, and the whole class is given a talk on racism. What is said? Now then children, this white child calling a black child nasty names because they are black is being racist, but this black child calling a white child nasty names because they are white isn't being racist, merely prejudiced by race, because there is an unequal power dynamic, from which arose our racial categories in the first place, meaning that only the white child can be racist in this situation. Now run along children, and be nice to each other, but remember _you_ can be racist, while _you_ cannot...
> 
> Doesn't work. The attempt to be sophisticated results in the reverse of its intention - in confusion and simplistic nonsensical contradictions.



It's easy LBJ - the teacher says something like 'racial slurs and bullying will not be tolerated in this school, if it continues I will speak to your parents'. However, there's no reason why we should  base our political analyses of racism on how a teacher chooses to reprimand children.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> It's easy LBJ - the teacher says something like 'racial slurs and bullying will not be tolerated in this school, if it continues I will speak to your parents'. However, there's no reason why we should  base our political analyses of racism on how a teacher chooses to reprimand children.


 There is a very good reason why we should be guided in _our definition of the word racism_ (that's what we're talking about here, remember) by how we wish to teach children. That does not preclude further political analysis.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> It's entering into dangerous territory to say that the racism of white people is different from the racism of high caste people in India, or of Han Chinese to minority groups in China, or of Finns to ethnic Lapps and so on. It's fudging to say that it's only when whiteness is temporarily redefined that it happens, though that clearly does happen eg in the case of 'white n......s'.
> 
> The racism of white people may be worse than than that of others, it's probably more widespread and has probably had more intellectual underpinnings over the years. But to say that it's somehow not another construct to reflect an essentially capitalist structure in origin would only leave only levels of melanin being the reason. Which would be odd.


Dangerous territory yes, though there may be a way of saying non-white racism might operate in different circumstances, different contexts and all that - _but is still racism_. What _*is*_ weird stuff, probably trolling, is this 'colonialism made you/us all white supremacists - and whites can't be the subject of racism' line.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> It's entering into dangerous territory to say that the racism of white people is different from the racism of high caste people in India, or of Han Chinese to non-Han, or of Finns to ethnic Lapps and so on.



It's a pretty ethnocentric view.  Only one race is capable of the One True Racism.


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> the royal wee


although the Royal We weren't exactly the pinnacle of Glaswegian music, they certainly weren't hated by everybody


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

8ball said:


> It's a pretty ethnocentric view.  Only one race is capable of the One True Racism.


One racism to rule them all...


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Viz may have an opening for you. They are always on the lookout for new characters.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

anti-racism


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There is a very good reason why we should be guided in _our definition of the word racism_ (that's what we're talking about here, remember) by how we wish to teach children. That does not preclude further political analysis.



I would wish to teach children to understand that there is a world of difference between racial slurs by white people towards black people than vice versa.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I would wish to teach children to understand that there is a world of difference between racial slurs by white people towards black people than vice versa.


Which children? In a school where white kids are in the minority would you still do this?

One of the things you need to bear in mind when talking about power dynamics is, as madeinbedlam said, that there is more than one process in play here.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm magically separate from the empire that created me! I'm one of the good ones! nothing I consume comes from stolen labour!


My guess is you are trolling, but still, a question: if you believe 'we'/'us'/Brits/westerners are white supremacists, what is the basis for any kind of class politics, any kind of solidarity?  In your conceptual universe the only way out seem to be a religious denunciation of the racist sins of your past life, your inherited guilt. Doesn't seem to have much to do with building an active resistance to capital based on shared interests.


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no wonder everyone hates us


seriously though, what do you mean by 'everybody' and 'us'? esp in the context of Yemen?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Which children? In a school where white kids are in the minority would you still do this?
> 
> One of the things you need to bear in mind when talking about power dynamics is, as madeinbedlam said, that there is more than one process in play here.



No one denies the latter, but I reject your implication that we can extract from pedagogical techniques tailored to very specific contexts an answer to the more general question of how we ought to theorise racism.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> No one denies the latter, but I reject your implication that we can extract from pedagogical techniques tailored to very specific contexts an answer to the more general question of how we ought to theorise racism.


I'm not saying you shouldn't theorise about racism ffs. read what I write. That doesn't mean you have to define the word racism to include all your theories about why and how it exists. You try to do so and you just end up in a mess. This mess, whereby people can make racist comments then proclaim that they are not being racist. This mess, that even a small child would see is rather bonkers.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> My guess is you are trolling, but still, a question: if you believe 'we'/'us'/Brits/westerners are white supremacists, what is the basis for any kind of class politics, any kind of solidarity?  In your conceptual universe the only way out seem to be a religious denunciation of the racist sins of your past life, your inherited guilt. Doesn't seem to have much to do with building an active resistance to capital based on shared interests.



no need for guilt or self hatred, just an acknowledgement of where you come from and why you are the way you are. a better starting point for solidarity than a race blind approach, which under white supremacy tends to just reproduce it. solidarity between white and non-white antifascists, black lives matter activists, indigenous land defenders, Gaza protesters etc., though much room for improvement, doesn't seem to be damaged by a shared acceptance of the reality of white supremacy. without that it's unlikely that these alliances would be happening at all.


----------



## belboid (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> It was going pretty well until belboid started throwing personal abuse about. Again.


says the man desperate to get into personal spats. A tad hypocritical. Again.



littlebabyjesus said:


> Some forms of racism are more hurtful than others. Again, hoodathunk?
> 
> Aside from anything else, I think your (re)definition is politically useless. Worse than that, it's politically divisive. What gain is there in downplaying racist attitudes like that?


Do you really not see the contradiction in this post? You acknowledge that two pieces of abuse are of a quite different level, but you want to make the people throwing the abuse equivalent.  And you think that doing so isn't divisive? That doesn't really make much sense, does it? 

My experience of 'anti-white racism' has consisted of a couple of (asian) kids who called me a honky and a meeting where I was one of the very very few non-afro-caribbean people, where I, and the other couple of white folk, were sneered at for attending. That was almost definitely not because we were 'white devils' though, it's because we were seen as useless white do-gooders. To say that both of those incidents were in any way similar to a group of white lads shouting p**i or n***er doesn't really seem very helpful, or uniting to me. Same as no one is really offended by being called a gammon, it's laughed off. Probably because there is no weight, of history, or state force, behind it.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> just an acknowledgement of where you come from and why you are the way you are.



Could you expand on this?  Why am I the way I am?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not saying you shouldn't theorise about racism ffs. read what I write. That doesn't mean you have to define the word racism to include all your theories about why and how it exists. You try to do so and you just end up in a mess.



I didn't say you said we 'shouldn't theorise about racism' I said that your example of how a school teacher should act in a particular context isn't generalisable to a critique of the 'prejudice + power' thesis. There's a difference between a theory of social phenomena and how this theory is brought to bare in our dealings with each other. Its therefore not instructive to use examples such as the one you did to discredit a theory.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

littleseb said:


> seriously though, what do you mean by 'everybody' and 'us'? esp in the context of Yemen?



would you prefer me to say the british state? parliament? the arms industry? it's just shorthand for all of those things, and an acknowledgement that we are not separate from this system, though without capital our influence is limited


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> would you prefer me to say the british state? parliament? the arms industry? it's just shorthand for all of those things, and an acknowledgement that we are not separate from this system, though without capital our influence is limited


i'd prefer you to back up your claims that 'we' are in some way committing genocide in yemen. but you've already refused twice to do so


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 24, 2018)

are the people the state and the state the people now then? Where have I heard such talk before


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> would you prefer me to say the british state? parliament? the arms industry?


yes, would prefer that.


lucillemara said:


> we are not separate from this system


by 'we', do you mean you, as in yourself? how do you know what my part in Yemen is?

now, who's 'everybody'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> are the people the state and the state the people now then? Where have I heard such talk before


ein volk, ein reich?


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> are the people the state and the state the people now then? Where have I heard such talk before


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Could you expand on this?  Why am I the way I am?



I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ein volk, ein reich?



anti-whiteness is a real issue and I'm the fascist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations


all labour relations are asymmetric


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> anti-whiteness is a real issue and I'm the fascist?


what are you blathering on about now?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations


If you are a black british person you will have some connection to colonialism as well, in that case. If we in Britain enjoy a higher standard of living than we otherwise would due to colonialism, that is not something that only white people benefit from.


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> anti-whiteness is a real issue and I'm the fascist?


the only one here banging on about that is you.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd prefer you to back up your claims that 'we' are in some way committing genocide in yemen. but you've already refused twice to do so



MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.


perhaps you could simply show that 'we' are committing - not complicit, not enabling, but actively committing - genocide in yemen. in other words i would like you to support your claim.

incidentally, mps should be forced to walk about in public. and in private too.


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.


again, who are those 'people'?
pls stop assuming my actions.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you are a black british person you will have some connection to colonialism as well, in that case. If we in Britain enjoy a higher standard of living than we otherwise would due to colonialism, that is not something that only white people benefit from.



of course. although statistically, you are more likely to be working class and more likely to be subject to state violence. I never said only white people benefit from colonialism, I said white people exist because of colonialism.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.


Do you take actions that help to wash the bloodstains off your hands?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Do you take actions that help to wash the bloodstains off your hands?


using soap made in the third world no doubt


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> all labour relations are asymmetric



some are more asymmetric than others


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you are a black british person you will have some connection to colonialism as well, in that case. If we in Britain enjoy a higher standard of living than we otherwise would due to colonialism, that is not something that only white people benefit from.



Black people living in Britain do benefit from some of the fruits of the colonialism but they also suffer its consequences in a whole number of ways that white people do not (windrush being the most obvious example that springs to mind).


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I don't know what way you are, but if you are a white british person you will have some connection to colonialism. the maoist/third worldist "labour aristocracy" concept is not particularly helpful but it does attempt to fill a gap in traditional leftist theory that downplays the asymmetric nature of global labour relations


Ideas about the western working class securing some 'benefits' (or defence against imisserisation)  from imperialism have been around since Lenin. But arguing that those same workers become _responsible for_ imperialism, _become_ white supremacists is just rubbish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> some are more asymmetric than others


yeh and some claims are more bullshit than others. i think this is the fifth time i've asked you to support your claim about britain committing genocide in yemen, which you seem remarkably reluctant to do.


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> because obscuring the origins of racism always, always leads to white people playing the victim, and in a white dominated society any challenge to white supremacy is deemed to be anti-white (this was the majority white view of MLK and the 60s US civil rights movement at the time despite liberal revisionism).



And what are the origins of racism?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Black people living in Britain do benefit from some of the fruits of the colonialism but they also suffer its consequences in a whole number of ways that white people do not (windrush being the most obvious example that springs to mind).


Again, not denying this. Merely challenging simplistic attempts to divide us up crudely into race groups with specific shared interests. Something I would have thought we would all want to do. Although it all sounds very leftist, lucillemara's analysis seems almost entirely to omit class analysis. It's all about nation states or races acting against one another.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> MPs voting for more arms deals are still allowed to walk around in public. people seem to be more willing to mobilise to defend the racist EU than to stop mass murder. this seems like a failure to me. but if you like you like I'll stop using the pronouns.


Thought you said this wasn't about guilt and moral failings?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Black people living in Britain do benefit from some of the fruits of the colonialism but they also suffer its consequences in a whole number of ways that white people do not (windrush being the most obvious example that springs to mind).


there were a number of white people caught up in that too, it's not like it was a wholly black thing, predominantly yes, wholly no Immigration scandal expected to spread beyond Windrush group


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I said white people exist because of colonialism.


believe me, racism and ethnic separation existed long before colonialism.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Do you take actions that help to wash the bloodstains off your hands?



no, and I have never denied my own complicity. of course the primary villains are the profiteers and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

littleseb said:


> believe me, racism and ethnic separation existed long before colonialism.



of course but white people didn't. race in the scientific sense didn't. this is the main point


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist


you're denying it

or at least you're denying the truth of it, now you're saying the uk is involved in genocide in yemen AND saudi arabia


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

Anyway, proper urban thread this: smugness, possible returner, hive mind (actually that wasn't my idea, one of my fellow drones made me post it).


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

where does saudi arabia come from? who gave mbs a red carpet welcome?


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist


you are assuming peoples' complicity without knowing not only their stance but also their activities wrt Yemen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist


please post up something - anything - which supports your claims. otherwise, after seven or eight times asking you to produce some evidence for your claim i'll have to reluctantly admit it's all a wind up


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> where does saudi arabia come from? who gave mbs a red carpet welcome?


not me, personally.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> where does saudi arabia come from? who gave mbs a red carpet welcome?


who refuses to produce evidence more than mohammed bin salman? why, it's you


----------



## Santino (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Anyway, proper urban thread this: smugness, possible returner, hive mind (actually that wasn't my idea, one of my fellow drones made me post it).


An interesting twist is the coalition of liberals and reactionaries clubbing together to defend a very broad, largely uninteresting definition of racism.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no, and I have never denied my own complicity. of course the primary villains are the profiteers and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
> 
> but anyone who wants to deny *the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist*


 So, is it the 'UK's role' or, your earlier term couple of pages back 'the British People''?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

belboid said:


> My experience of 'anti-white racism' has consisted of a couple of (asian) kids who called me a honky and a meeting where I was one of the very very few non-afro-caribbean people, where I, and the other couple of white folk, were sneered at for attending. That was almost definitely not because we were 'white devils' though, it's because we were seen as useless white do-gooders. To say that both of those incidents were in any way similar to a group of white lads shouting p**i or n***er doesn't really seem very helpful, or uniting to me. Same as no one is really offended by being called a gammon, it's laughed off. Probably because there is no weight, of history, or state force, behind it.


So yesterday you were insisting that prejudice had to be bolstered by an unequal power dynamic to qualify as racism yet here you are today telling us that you have experienced anti-white racism yourself where such power dynamic was absent.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Santino said:


> An interesting twist is the coalition of liberals and reactionaries clubbing together to defend a very broad, largely uninteresting definition of racism.


An uninteresting non-twist is you popping up every few pages to make a snide content-free comment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> our genocide in yemen is mostly ignored.


it isn't 'our genocide' you sad wretch


lucillemara said:


> but anyone who wants to deny the UK's role in Saudi Arabia and complicity in the genocide is an apologist


now you've moved from





lucillemara said:


> our genocide


 to 





lucillemara said:


> complicity in the genocide


you're shuffling back from your initial claim


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So yesterday you were insisting that prejudice had to be bolstered by an unequal power dynamic to qualify as racism yet here you are today telling us that you have experienced anti-white racism yourself where such power dynamic was absent.



It's clear from the fact that he put anti-white racism in quotation marks that he did not regard it as actual racism.


----------



## Santino (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> An uninteresting non-twist is you popping up every few pages to make a snide content-free comment.


Why are you so angry with people 'popping up' on threads? We can't all contribute to every page.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Santino said:


> Why are you so angry with people 'popping up' on threads? We can't all contribute to every page.


You don't contribute, full stop. You simply turn up every now and again to tell someone how stupid they are. Waste of space.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Jeff Robinson said:


> ... he did not regard it as actual racism.


Then he’s stupid.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Santino said:


> Why are you so angry with people 'popping up' on threads? We can't all contribute to every page.


It’s his MO. Bang him on ignore. You’ll miss absolutely nothing as nobody bothers quoting him either.


----------



## belboid (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> So yesterday you were insisting that prejudice had to be bolstered by an unequal power dynamic to qualify as racism yet here you are today telling us that you have experienced anti-white racism yourself where such power dynamic was absent.


even you must have seen the inverted commas around the phrase.  This is generally accepted as referring to a well known, but disputed phrase. Scare quotes, used to show you think the word is probably nonsense.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

I'm sorry for not assuring people they're not personally responsible for violence. I'm sorry for not prefacing every mention of imperial violence with an assurance that ordinary people shouldn't feel bad about it.

I've been insulted for being white. It was like being hit with a feather.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Then he’s stupid.



says the person who misread his post.


----------



## belboid (Oct 24, 2018)

Everyone who doesn't agree with Spymaster's opinions is obviously an idiot with a dodgy MO. 

Phew, that makes everything in life remarkably simple.


----------



## Santino (Oct 24, 2018)

belboid said:


> Everyone who doesn't agree with Spymaster's opinions is obviously an idiot with a dodgy MO.
> 
> Phew, that makes everything in life remarkably simple.


Bang them all on ignore so we can sit around fine-tuning our definition of racism.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

belboid said:


> even you must have seen the inverted commas around the phrase.


I actually didn’t notice them as I’m posting from a park in the sun on my phone, so I’ll take that one on the chin. Got loads more for you later anyway.


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I’m posting from a park in the sun on my phone


good for you! some of us have our line mangers breathing down our necks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

littleseb said:


> good for you! some of us have our line mangers breathing down our necks.


some of us are discussing this with our managers


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> some of us are discussing this with our managers


most of us manage to discuss nothing.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

look at this racism


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Yes dear.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

belboid said:


> Everyone who doesn't agree with Spymaster's opinions is obviously an idiot with a dodgy MO.


I wouldn’t go so far as to include _everyone_ but if the category exists, you are most certainly in it.


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

Just throwing my tuppence in.

The op is correct as there is no race of Gammons. Therefore the term Gammon is not racist. There are many individuals whose appearance can be likened to a gammon steak, and those individuals are all white-caucasian males. But not all white-caucasian males look like gammons so it cannot be a racist term.

Sorry if this was mentioned before, but this sort of thing gets my goat. Calling some one a Jock, Taff, Spic, Dago are NOT racist terms as those terms relate to a persons nationality, not their race. Race is about minor differences in DNA, not man-made geo-political labels. And I've read that geneticists will argue that the genetic differences between the races (that we've labelled in the past) are so incredibly small as to be redundant and there is only one race, the human race.

The errant gammon (although he's not very red so not very gammon-like) in the incident on Ryannair did use racist language and should be convicted of hate crime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

littleseb said:


> most of us manage to discuss nothing.


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm sorry for not assuring people they're not personally responsible for violence





Pickman's model said:


>


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Just throwing my tuppence in.
> 
> The op is correct as there is no race of Gammons. Therefore the term Gammon is not racist. There are many individuals whose appearance can be likened to a gammon steak, and those individuals are all white-caucasian males. But not all white-caucasian males look like gammons so it cannot be a racist term.
> 
> ...


Come to my workplace and call my colleague a spic. He will explain how racist this is as he punches you repeatedly in the head.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

colonialism? what does that have to do with whiteness?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 24, 2018)

You think you're being very clever, lucillemara, but you're really not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> colonialism? what does that have to do with whiteness?


yeh. i'm sure you see just how you undermine your own points just as you think you're making them.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> colonialism? what does that have to do with whiteness?


I feel like I'm being repeatedly lectured by someone more stupid than Gavin Barwell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I feel like I'm being repeatedly lectured by someone more stupid than Gavin Barwell.


the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits - albert einstein


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I feel like I'm being repeatedly lectured by someone more stupid than Gavin Barwell.


Yeah, it's no fun now. Think I'll have to go back to the _How Much Does a Poo Weigh_ thread.


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Come to my workplace and call my colleague a spic. He will explain how racist this is as he punches you repeatedly in the head.



Doesn't matter, it's related to nationality.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Just throwing my tuppence in.
> 
> The op is correct as there is no race of Gammons. Therefore the term Gammon is not racist. There are many individuals whose appearance can be likened to a gammon steak, and those individuals are all white-caucasian males. But not all white-caucasian males look like gammons so it cannot be a racist term.
> 
> ...


So Wops ok then ? Pakis ? By the way which nationality are Spics and Dagos?


----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ...I said white people exist because of colonialism.



I thought we existed because the pre-historic diet had no vitamin D and so people with the mutation of lighter skin who could make more of it from the reduced sunlight at higher latitudes than could people with the more ‘normal’ darker skin tones increased their populations. 

Besides I’m not white, I’m more gammon coloured.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2018)

TopCat said:


> I feel like I'm being repeatedly lectured by someone more stupid than Gavin Barwell.


I feel like i'm back at school being lectured by a middle class trendy lefty pottery teacher for distributing class war.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

A380 said:


> I thought we existed because the pre-historic diet had no vitamin D and so people with the mutation of lighter skin who could make more of it from the reduced sunlight at higher latitudes than could people with the more ‘normal’ darker skin tones increased their populations.
> 
> Besides I’m not white, I’m more gammon coloured.



that's skin colour


----------



## Santino (Oct 24, 2018)

"That quotation about genius and stupidity has never been positively attributed to Einstein, and only became associated with him after the 1980s, despite being well known before that." - St Augustine


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

whiteness is inseparable from its history


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

belboid said:


> My experience of 'anti-white racism' has consisted of a couple of (asian) kids who called me a honky and a meeting where I was one of the very very few non-afro-caribbean people, where I, and the other couple of white folk, were sneered at for attending. That was almost definitely not because we were 'white devils' though, it's because we were seen as useless white do-gooders. To say that both of those incidents were in any way similar to a group of white lads shouting p**i or n***er doesn't really seem very helpful, or uniting to me. Same as no one is really offended by being called a gammon, it's laughed off. Probably because there is no weight, of history, or state force, behind it.



The only way in which they were similar is that both circumstances are unpleasant incidents caused because of the colour of people's skin. That makes them racist incidents. Nobody, but nobody, on this thread has suggested for one moment that what you experienced is in any way comparable in weight or offence to black or Asian guys being abused with the terms you censored. _That doesn't mean that they're not racist._

Those two examples I gave yesterday of an Indian MD not employing white people, and Asian cricket teams not welcoming white players or making them uncomfortable are both real. They are also very obviously examples of racism.


----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> that's skin colour


Isn’t that how we define white?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

no


----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)




----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no


Go on, I’m on a slow train with a little while to go.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> The op is correct as there is no race of Gammons. Therefore the term Gammon is not racist. There are many individuals whose appearance can be likened to a gammon steak, and those individuals are all white-caucasian males. But not all white-caucasian males look like gammons so it cannot be a racist term.
> 
> Sorry if this was mentioned before, but this sort of thing gets my goat. Calling some one a Jock, Taff, Spic, Dago are NOT racist terms as those terms relate to a persons nationality, not their race. Race is about minor differences in DNA, not man-made geo-political labels. And I've read that geneticists will argue that the genetic differences between the races (that we've labelled in the past) are so incredibly small as to be redundant and there is only one race, the human race.
> 
> The errant gammon (although he's not very red so not very gammon-like) in the incident on Ryannair did use racist language and should be convicted of hate crime.


This is the same as 'you can't be racist towards Muslims because Muslims aren't a race'


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 24, 2018)

Oh god.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Trying to be polite here, but anyone who thinks 'dago' and 'spic' are not racist terms is an idiot.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 24, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Oh god.


Yes?


----------



## JimW (Oct 24, 2018)

My take-away from this thread has been that lucillemara feels dismotivated from activism because of politics like mine. That's a great comfort, as while I may not have contributed as much as I'd have liked to the coming communism at least I've helped keep innocent citizens free of this hosepipe of smugness.


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Trying to be polite here, but anyone who thinks 'dago' and 'spic' are not racist terms is an idiot.



They might be meant as racist insults when used by people wanting to slur a person based on their imagined race, but if the word's origin relates to a person from a specific country, then it can't be technically defined as racist.

The United States Census uses the ethnonym Hispanic or *Latino* to refer to "a person of Dominican, Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of *race*".


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> This is the same as 'you can't be racist towards Muslims because Muslims aren't a race'



Of course - a Muslim is a person belonging to a particular religious belief. It has nothing to do with their DNA.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

Santino said:


> "That quotation about genius and stupidity has never been positively attributed to Einstein, and only became associated with him after the 1980s, despite being well known before that." - St Augustine


you're quite right, i'd never chased it down after seeing it above the bar in a pub. maybe one day you'll be able to post without showing yourself to be a smug cunt. but i don't suppose anyone here will live long enough to see it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> They might be meant as racist insults when used by people wanting to slur a person based on their imagined race, but if the word's origin relates to a person from a specific country, then it can't be technically defined as racist.


when i want to show how i cannot compete with the pedants of today this ^^ is the post i will draw to their attention


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

DNA has nothing to do with race- Elizabeth Warren isn't indigenous


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> when i want to show how i cannot compete with the pedants of today this ^^ is the post i will draw to their attention



Praise from on high indeed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> DNA has nothing to do with race- Elizabeth Warren isn't indigenous


she is indigenous to oklahoma


----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> DNA has nothing to do with race- Elizabeth Warren isn't indigenous


What, is she metamorphic instead?


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> DNA has nothing to do with race- Elizabeth Warren isn't indigenous



But her DNA will present features categorised as to belonging to out dated classifications of the human race, used in the past as an attempt to classify humans - this should be done away with - as I mentioned earlier, the differences are so small as to be redundant.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

yeah native genocide is hilarious guys


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> But her DNA can be categorised as to belonging to out dated categories of DNA variants, used in the past as an attempt to classify humans - this should be done away with - as I mentioned earlier, the differences are so small as to be redundant.



yes but this is a different topic from race as a construct which isn't reducible to genetics


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> you're quite right, i'd never chased it down after seeing it above the bar in a pub. maybe one day you'll be able to post without showing yourself to be a smug cunt. but i don't suppose anyone here will live long enough to see it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yeah native genocide is hilarious guys





lucillemara said:


> yes but this is a different topic from race as a construct which isn't reducible to genetics


it's another topic in which you show yourself unable to submit and maintain a coherent argument.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yeah native genocide is hilarious guys


not sure how you get here ^ from here v


lucillemara said:


> DNA has nothing to do with race- Elizabeth Warren isn't indigenous


via here:





Pickman's model said:


> she is indigenous to oklahoma


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

submit eh
race isn't logically coherent and neither is racism so I don't know how to explain it in acceptable terms

are we still expecting the real world to conform to enlightenment notions of consistency and rationality because it doesn't


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2018)

This is going well then


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> submit eh
> race isn't logically coherent and neither is racism so I don't know how to explain it in acceptable terms
> 
> are we still expecting the real world to conform to enlightenment notions of consistency and rationality because it doesn't


i'm expecting you to put some vague effort into making your posts a) say what you mean them to say, and b) where you make a claim of e.g. the uk committing genocide in yemen, that when asked you will be able to point to something supporting your claim.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> This is going well then


if by well you mean lucillebara's experiencing problems of verbal diarrhoea, yes - it is indeed going well


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if by well you mean lucillebara's experiencing problems of verbal diarrhoea, yes - it is indeed going well



Indeed comrade


----------



## strung out (Oct 24, 2018)

Is it possible for my mixed race (white/chinese) wife to be racist to white people? Can white/chinese/both be racist to her? I'm so confused.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ... you make a claim of e.g. the uk committing genocide in yemen


Eh? Have I missed something?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 24, 2018)

belboid said:


> it's because we were seen as useless white do-gooders.



What was it that made them think you were a useless do-gooder?


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What was it that made them think you were a useless do-gooder?


Perspicacity.


----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 24, 2018)




----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)




----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

on the other hand, sometimes white men get called gammon so who's to say who the real racists are?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Of course - a Muslim is a person belonging to a particular religious belief. It has nothing to do with their DNA.



Which makes it a useful proxy for people who hate brown people.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

Race, Class and Borders


----------



## belboid (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> The only way in which they were similar is that both circumstances are unpleasant incidents caused because of the colour of people's skin. That makes them racist incidents. Nobody, but nobody, on this thread has suggested for one moment that what you experienced is in any way comparable in weight or offence to black or Asian guys being abused with the terms you censored. That doesn't mean that they're not racist.
> 
> Those two examples I gave yesterday of an Indian MD not employing white people and Asian cricket teams not welcoming white players or making them uncomfortable are both real. They are also very obviously examples of racism.


I don't know, if the asian team has excluded white folk because they want a team where they (the asian folk) _aren't _excluded, that's not really racism, is it? That has happened all over the shop, and was the main driver for the 'segregated' teams I know of. It's not even really prejudice, is it? If it is because they were excluded from other teams.  Similarly i have known some asian bosses who have said they don't like employing white people because white people don't like having an asian boss. They may have been talking bollocks, I've no real way of knowing, but it fits with plenty of experience, sadly.

Of course there will be examples where there is clear discrimination based solely on wanting to exclude people 'not like me' or even because white folks are devils, or some other such bullshit. And that is divisive, racially prejudiced bullshit. Which, tbh, I wouldn't bother being pedantic about and saying 'well, it's not _actually_ racism, because...' because it is so bloody close, that it isn't worth the effort.  

In the case of some kid going 'gammon' or 'honky' tho.... it's just a whole different ball game.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> Race, Class and Borders


But what do you think?


----------



## belboid (Oct 24, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What was it that made them think you were a useless do-gooder?


They didn't know I was SWP, and thus about to flog them a copy of Socialist Worker and bugger off.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

"gammon" is a racist slur


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

why do you keep putting words into peoples' mouths?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

someone called me a cracker and it hurt my feelings


----------



## klang (Oct 24, 2018)

you're still doing it.


----------



## JimW (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> on the other hand, sometimes white men get called gammon so who's to say who the real racists are?


David Aaronovitch has gone for a publicity pic that looks like the bloke on the box of that peg and board game Mastermind I had when I was a kid. Which is odd given he's such a fuckwit.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

nothing to worry about


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

belboid said:


> In the case of some kid going 'gammon' or 'honky' tho.... it's just a whole different ball game.


It's not _that different_ a ball game though. It's the same as your comparison of your experiences, and PoC being far more seriously abused. It's simply a question of degree. Those terms of abuse in the context we've been discussing would not be levelled at someone unless they had a particular skin colour. White. They are therefore racist terms. Mildly racist, if you want, but still racist.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

the most important thing to remember is that anti-white racism is a problem too


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> nothing to worry about


Is that from the Sun? Says a lot about you, quoting such a *reputable* source


----------



## rekil (Oct 24, 2018)

Odds on this being a returner have been slashed to fuckery.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

I think the editor confirmed that earlier.

Firky?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

let's not forget white people can be victims too


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I think the editor confirmed that earlier.
> 
> Firky?


He was refering to their request to be banned not to returner status.

You're really bad at this btw - as if firky could manage the grasp of quite a complex series of political approaches/histories/schools that this poster has managed to mangle. He wouldn't have heard of half of the stuff name-dropped here in place of analysis.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I think the editor confirmed that earlier.
> 
> Firky?


I certainly admire their indefatigability.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I certainly admire their indefatigability.


Webel warrior


----------



## JimW (Oct 24, 2018)

I'm sort of sensing a theme here lucillemara but I can't quite put my finger on it - what's that Lassie, Bobby's fallen in the well?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Webel warrior


Wow, there's a name from the past. Rabbit Worrier!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> let's not forget white people can be victims too


Do you have a point that you're about to enlighten us with, or are you building up to an almighty flounce?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

did you know fascism is resurgent worldwide?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> He was refering to their request to be banned not to returner status.


Oh, I see. 


> You're really bad at this btw -


Agreed. I have absolutely no idea how you and a couple of others sometimes spot and name returners so quickly.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

JimW said:


> I'm sort of sensing a theme here lucillemara but I can't quite put my finger on it - what's that Lassie, Bobby's fallen in the well?


Bobby's fallen in a well of racism. 

Marky got with Sharon, Sharon got Cherise
She was sharing Sharon's outlook on the topic of disease
Mikey had a facial scar and *Bobby was a racist*
They were all in love with dying, they were doing it in Texas
Tommy played piano like a kid out in the rain
And then he lost his leg in Dallas, he was dancing with a train


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> did you know fascism is resurgent worldwide?





"Interesting facts you have learnt today" thread --------------------------->


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

don't worry, liberals will save us


----------



## JimW (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> did you know fascism is resurgent worldwide?


Never been a better time to talk about deontology and the invention of whiteness. If only more people realised!


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I've been insulted for being white. It was like being hit with a feather.


I find it hard to believe that anyone would insult your whiteness, with so many better insults to choose from.


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

8ball said:


> Which makes it a useful proxy for people who hate brown people.



Maybe, but Islamophobia isn't racism....it's Islamophobia. Not all brown people are Muslims and not all Muslims are brown, so any insult towards Muslims, from people thinking they're using racist terms, just shows their ignorance of the English language. And anyone thinking people insulting Muslims are racists are also showing their ignorance of the English language.


----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)

Actually I might be wrong about the sock puppetry, the last 10 or so posts from Lucillmara make me wonder if this/they are some kind of algorithm.

Like a Turing test but with the knobishness parameter turned up to 11.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> any insult towards Muslims, from people thinking they're using racist terms, just shows their ignorance of the English language.



I think you have just dealt the crucial blow to these people that they’ll never recover from. 

Innit.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Maybe, but Islamophobia isn't racism....it's Islamophobia. Not all brown people are Muslims and not all Muslims are brown, so any insult towards Muslims, from people thinking they're using racist terms, just shows their ignorance of the English language. And anyone thinking people insulting Muslims are racists are also showing their ignorance of the English language.



I think you've got a bit of catching up to do.  Someone with more time will be along in a minute...


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 24, 2018)

When little white boys and girls at school were calling me gyppo and ching chong because of how I looked, even though I'm basically white .. that might have been racist. But those kids calling my african friend (and the only black kid at that school) the obvious names, that was definitely racist.

Just more anecdotes, you know. By the way I do consider myself colourblind, in the sense that I don't treat people different based on the colour of their skin or their perceived (by me) ethnicity. OK I might speak more carefully if their English isn't good, but that's about it.

Hat in ring: I strongly feel individuals _should _be colour blind, should at least _aspire _to be. On the other hand I think government and other organisations' group policies should not be colour blind, because of structural issues that need solving at that level. Individuals can best help by treating everyone equally with respect and empathy as they go about their days. The structural stuff needs solving .. structurally.

There, I said it. That there's an opinion. An old-fashioned one I reckon, but probably not changing anytime soon.


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

8ball said:


> I think you've got a bit of catching up to do.  Someone with more time will be along in a minute...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


>



Fair point, give it an hour, then.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Maybe, but Islamophobia isn't racism....it's Islamophobia. Not all brown people are Muslims and not all Muslims are brown, so any insult towards Muslims, from people thinking they're using racist terms, just shows their ignorance of the English language. And anyone thinking people insulting Muslims are racists are also showing their ignorance of the English language.


Have a read of this. You're way out of date.


----------



## Athos (Oct 24, 2018)

So, who do we think this is?


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Have a read of this. You're way out of date.



According to Hall, there is a new type of racism — “cultural racism,”

Hahaha. So some bloke makes up a phrase 'cultural racism' just so we can call Islamophobes racist. Bollox - go look at a dictionary. I'm talking about the english language. Not ivory tower-academia-think-tank bullshit.

If this were the case people disliking Freemasons can be called racist....hahaha.


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Have a read of this. You're way out of date.



"Racism is changing in its form, but the beast is still very much alive and well."

Can we call black white and white black then....garbage.

Race is about biology. End of.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> "Racism is changing in its form, but the beast is still very much alive and well."
> 
> Can we call black white and white black then....garbage.
> 
> Race is about biology. End of.


It really isn't.  Did you not read the first half of that article? Race comprises culturally constructed groupings (and otherings), sometimes but not always based on, among other things, essentially arbitrary physical signifiers.


----------



## nuffsaid (Oct 24, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It really isn't.  Did you not read the first half of that article? Race comprises culturally constructed groupings (and otherings), sometimes but not always based on, among other things, essentially arbitrary physical signifiers.



Newspeak. And that's fucking dangerous.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 24, 2018)

orwell was a cop


----------



## JimW (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Newspeak. And that's fucking dangerous.


So you'll stick with the bullshit that is a biological basis to race just because it's been around long enough? We've plenty of evidence how dangerous that has been.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

Nah not even controversial. The groups are fluid too. Take British bangladeshis for instance, who have shifted in perception, including but not limited to public policy decision making, from 'asian' to 'muslim' over the years.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> orwell was a cop


No fucking way! You'll be trying to tell us something absurd like he went to Eton next. We're not that stupid.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> orwell was a cop



lol his name wasn't even orwell !!11

no u


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Race is about biology. End of.



I really wish you were right, and that it related to generally trivial DNA differences due to people’s movements over time, but it really isn’t.

If it was, it wouldn’t make sense to talk about race in terms of skin colour - most of human biodiversity is in Africa among black people.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> "Race is about biology. End of.


Unless you're talking about that thing called the human race (and I don't think you are), race is a social construct. End of.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> orwell was a cop


Yeh so he says in his book burmese days

Next you'll be telling us he wrote 1984


----------



## Kesher (Oct 24, 2018)

Surely if Gammon is racist then any radio presenter who used it would be sacked immediately? However; James O'Brien  regularly uses it to describe Brexit loons on his LBC show


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 24, 2018)

He's a gammon himself so not racialist 
unrelatedly (?) I wonder if this lucillemara is a RalphLlama in a shinier, edgier version?


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 24, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> He's a gammon himself so not racialist.
> unrelatedly (?) I wonder if this lucillemara is a RalphLlama in a shinier, edgier version?



What like how when a stoner acquaintance gives up the drugs, becomes (a little) more coherent, but even more unbearable than they were when they were on the gear?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> What like how when a stoner acquaintance gives up the drugs, becomes (a little) more coherent, but even more unbearable than they were when they were on the gear?



At least he hasn’t found God.

Small mercies..


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 24, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Maybe, but Islamophobia isn't racism....it's Islamophobia. Not all brown people are Muslims and not all Muslims are brown, so any insult towards Muslims, from people thinking they're using racist terms, just shows their ignorance of the English language. And anyone thinking people insulting Muslims are racists are also showing their ignorance of the English language.



I'm sorry but that reminds me of people with their dictionary in hand explaining that you can't say 'None of them are' because 'none' is singular. The UN definition is the one that most people would recognise more than the one in dictionaries:


...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life'

And that's what 'racism' means. Things change and dictionaries are always only catching up.


----------



## A380 (Oct 24, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> orwell was a cop


I thought he was a green duck that couldn’t fly, I swear he used to appear  along side Keith Harris in a nappy, the duck that is not Keith Harris. It was a very touching act. I often cried.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 24, 2018)

Eric Arthur B Liar


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Kesher said:


> Surely if Gammon is racist then any radio presenter who used it would be sacked immediately? However; James O'Brien  regularly uses it to describe Brexit loons on his LBC show


Just in case anyone's unaware, this Kesher  character is dodgy as fuck. He has a thing for posting videos of very, very, young Korean/Japanese girls in the music forums, brags about sexually abusing Thai women, and posts stuff like this:



Kesher said:


> In other words a woman who has drunk too much and  ends up getting raped is partly to blame.
> 
> I agree.





Kesher said:


> I met my Thai wife at a  Pattaya bar in June 99: I paid her £10 to fuck the arse off her all night  whilst on poppers. I am 19 years older than her; but we are still together.
> 
> Before my Thai wife I was married to a Filipina
> 
> ...





Kesher said:


> I quite often call my Thai wife a brown arsed bitch






			
				Kesher said:
			
		

> I've fucked hundreds of bargirls in Thailand in the past I use to average 3 a day


----------



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Just in case anyone's unaware, this Kesher  character is dodgy as fuck. He has a thing for posting videos of very young Japanese girls in the music forums, brags about sexually abusing Thai women, and posts stuff like this:


LBC listener


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

brogdale said:


> LBC listener


Dunno about that but the guy is in his mid 60s and has strongly defended imagery (cartoons) of child rape on these boards. 

That text under his avatar say "Loona" in Korean. They are a South Korean girl band.

Here they are:


----------



## Sweet FA (Oct 24, 2018)

butchersapron called lucillemara about 20 pages ago.


----------



## editor (Oct 24, 2018)

Will people stop posting up photos of underage girls/girls looking underage before I wield the ban hammer with* MAXIMUM* force.


----------



## xenon (Oct 24, 2018)

.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

editor said:


> Will people stop posting up photos of underage girls/girls looking underage before I wield the ban hammer with* MAXIMUM* force.



All I see is a single post used to underline a point.  If you have so little faith in people’s ability to understand them, maybe you should just close the site down - loose lips sink ships and all that.

Edit: understand your priorities in terms of protecting the site, mind


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

Seems strange to threaten to ban a poster for making people aware of a dodgy fucker, whilst allowing the dodgy fucker, who openly admits to sexually abusing women, to carry on posting.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Just in case anyone's unaware, this Kesher  character is dodgy as fuck. He has a thing for posting videos of very, very, young Korean/Japanese girls in the music forums, brags about sexually abusing Thai women, and posts stuff like this:


Grim stuff, kesher should be long gone.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 24, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Seems strange to threaten to ban a poster for making people aware of a dodgy fucker, whilst allowing the dodgy fucker, who openly admits to sexually abusing women, to carry on posting.



I reacted at first, but I expect it will be looked into.  I’m sure a pic of a girl band is harmless in itself, but escalations might not be productive.

Maybe a mod would enlighten us a little.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 24, 2018)

8ball said:


> I reacted at first, but I expect it will be looked into.  I’m sure a pic of a girl band is harmless in itself, but escalations might not be productive.
> 
> Maybe a mod would enlighten us a little.


Check out his video posting history in the music forums. He's a fucking creep.


----------



## xenon (Oct 24, 2018)

I wondered if anyone else remembered. Didn't see those posts but I remember the cartoon threads.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 24, 2018)

xenon said:


> I wondered if anyone else remembered. Didn't see those posts but I remember the cartoon threads.


I only looked at a few of his posts. No single post was banworthy by the normal rules of urban/most messageboards, but he's not someone I'd want to share a board with.


----------



## xenon (Oct 25, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I only looked at a few of his posts. No single post was banworthy by the normal rules of urban/most messageboards, but he's not someone I'd want to share a board with.



It's from the thred/s about cartoons depicting child abuce I remember them being dodgy. Not going to dig it up, CBA apart from anything else.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 25, 2018)

He likes Asian schoolgirls then. I mean they look nice, on some level you could say its innocent, but its not is it? He's a mature man. Ban the cunt.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 25, 2018)

Oh and credit to Spy for raising it.


----------



## rekil (Oct 25, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Just in case anyone's unaware, this Kesher  character is dodgy as fuck. He has a thing for posting videos of very, very, young Korean/Japanese girls in the music forums, brags about sexually abusing Thai women, and posts stuff like this:





editor said:


> Will people stop posting up photos of underage girls/girls looking underage before I wield the ban hammer with* MAXIMUM* force.


Like spy and others have pointed out, posting up photos and videos of underage girls/girls looking underage is pretty much all the vermin has ever done here for years. 

Exhibit 265 - Loving These


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 25, 2018)

Ban him and get back to gammon.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 25, 2018)

nuffsaid said:


> Maybe, but Islamophobia isn't racism....it's Islamophobia. Not all brown people are Muslims and not all Muslims are brown, so any insult towards Muslims, from people thinking they're using racist terms, just shows their ignorance of the English language. And anyone thinking people insulting Muslims are racists are also showing their ignorance of the English language.



It is and it isn't. It's certainly intended to be racist.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 25, 2018)

Humberto said:


> He likes Asian schoolgirls then. I mean they look nice, on some level you could say its innocent, but its not is it?


Not considering his boast to have “fucked hundreds” of similar looking girls, his defence of child rape pictures, and the way he talks about women. No, it’s not fucking innocent. He’s a filthy old sex tourist and probable nonce.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 25, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> It is and it isn't. It's certainly intended to be racist.



Agree. It's not as if the insults are directed at the religion very often. You don't get many people who say 'Of course Druze Christians, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Baha'i, Buddhists are thoroughly decent people but my objections to Islam are well-founded and when I insult a Muslim I limit myself to those objections'. It's code for 'brown people', by and large.

And I think 'Islamophobia' is a sus word even if used only to mean a dislike of the religion. Disliking a religion is not like getting a panic attack from spiders, or heights. It's not an effing medical condition.

TBH, I don't care what word is used to describe the use of 'Gammon' as an insult. What exactly it is is mere semantics. What it also is unhelpful, playground politics, having a pop at people's appearance and any number of other things. And if it's not racist it's something-else-ist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2018)

When we had these Islam islamophobia discussions 14, 15 years ago they were so much better


----------



## Athos (Oct 25, 2018)




----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Check out his video posting history in the music forums. He's a fucking creep.



I don’t doubt it - I was talking about *your* posting of the girl band pic.

I thought that was what editor’s ban threat was about - did I misread something?


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 25, 2018)

8ball said:


> I don’t doubt it - I was talking about *your* posting of the girl band pic.
> 
> I thought that was what editor’s ban threat was about - did I misread something?


Ah, ok. No, you were right. The threat was to ban me again (for posting one instructionally intended picture) instead of the nonce (for posting hundreds of lasciviously intentioned videos).


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 25, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> When we had these Islam islamophobia discussions 14, 15 years ago they were so much better


We did, and they were. But JuanTwoThree ’s middle paragraph is still correct.

I think we’ve probably gone far too far down this route to be able to make the point without people misunderstanding and talking past me, but there is a perfectly good word for racism. Even racism that is masquerading as criticism of a philosophy or cultural practises. So I’d prefer we just called it racism. But let’s be clear: just because some people use criticism of a philosophy or cultural practises as a cover, does not mean that those things should be immune from criticism. Because that’s a dangerous route. And one we’re already a long way down.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> We did, and they were. But JuanTwoThree ’s middle paragraph is still correct.
> 
> I think we’ve probably gone far too far down this route to be able to make the point without people misunderstanding and talking past me, but there is a perfectly good word for racism. Even racism that is masquerading as criticism of a philosophy or cultural practises. So I’d prefer we just called it racism. But let’s be clear: just because some people use criticism of a philosophy or cultural practises as a cover, does not mean that those things should be immune from criticism. Because that’s a dangerous route. And one we’re already a long way down.



Good post.  There are elements of some strains of Islam I'm not keen on (like most people), but there are few cases I've seen where comments related to this are not easily distinguishable from the thinly-veiled racism.  The fact that those Sikhs, Christians and atheists that get "anti-Islamic" abuse on the street never seem to be white gives the lie to the whole enterprise, and "it's not racism because Islam isn't a race" is often a red flag for this poor subterfuge.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 25, 2018)

the far right used to particularly  target south asian people for racist abuse.

now they have dropped all the racism and are particularly targeting muslims.

completely different obviously. tough on the muslims - but i bet them south asian people are relieved.


----------



## A380 (Oct 25, 2018)

No peas in our time. But this gammon wasn’t racist.



I forgot to take the picture until after I’d started eating...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2018)

Is it racist to say that female South-East Asian bricklayers are genetically pre-disposed to make excellent cat burglars?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 25, 2018)

A380 said:


> No peas in our time. But this gammon wasn’t racist.
> 
> View attachment 150679
> 
> I forgot to take the picture until after i’s started eating...



Need a new gammon thread! No pineapple is a massive point reduction! Egg looks shite, GAMMON is an abomination, cheap fuckin dogs dinner....ffs


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2018)

Hmmm. I like pineapple if it’s cold and  maybe comes with other fruit.

Mixing it with hot food is an abomination.

Especially pizza.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 25, 2018)

8ball said:


> Is it racist to say that female South-East Asian bricklayers are genetically pre-disposed to make excellent cat burglars?



No idea, but it confirms you’re a massive cunt.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> No idea, but it confirms you’re a massive cunt.





Still, an accurate cunt.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 25, 2018)

What the suffering fuck have you done to that egg?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 25, 2018)




----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What the suffering fuck have you done to that egg?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 25, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Need a new gammon thread! No pineapple is a massive point reduction! Egg looks shite, GAMMON is an abomination, cheap fuckin dogs dinner....ffs


Ah, but crinkle cuts chips!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 26, 2018)

8ball said:


> Hmmm. I like pineapple if it’s cold and  maybe comes with other fruit.
> 
> Mixing it with hot food is an abomination.
> 
> Especially pizza.


I thought gammon _had_ to be served with pineapple?

Although, I’ve been a vegetarian for 35 years. I don’t think I’ve _seen_ gammon since the 70s. So it might be a 70s thing.

Also, in my life, I’d only ever heard it called “gammon steak”. The same way that people only ever used to say “tuna fish”.  Was the “steak” dropped around the time people stopped saying “tuna fish”?


----------



## Edie (Oct 26, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Just in case anyone's unaware, this Kesher  character is dodgy as fuck. He has a thing for posting videos of very, very, young Korean/Japanese girls in the music forums, brags about sexually abusing Thai women, and posts stuff like this:


Jesus Christ that’s vile


----------



## Celyn (Oct 26, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> ...
> 
> Although, I’ve been a vegetarian for 35 years. I don’t think I’ve _seen_ gammon since the 70s. So it might be a 70s thing.
> 
> Also, in my life, I’d only ever heard it called “gammon steak”. The same way that people only ever used to say “tuna fish”.  Was the “steak” dropped around the time people stopped saying “tuna fish”?



It might have been gammon steak to differentiate it from thinly sliced gammon sold ready to eat whether on a plate or to put in sandwiches.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 26, 2018)

Celyn said:


> It might have been gammon steak to differentiate it from thinly sliced gammon sold ready to eat whether on a plate or to put in sandwiches.


Isn’t that called “bacon”?


----------



## Celyn (Oct 26, 2018)

No,  I have in mind sort of cold ham stuff. It might be one of those naming oddities, called gammon in Scotland but something else elsewhere. 

Really, the gammon "steak" thing might just be there to suggest "big! thick! chunky!" to the consumer.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 26, 2018)

Celyn said:


> No,  I have in mind sort of cold ham stuff. It might be one of those naming oddities, called gammon in Scotland but something else elsewhere.
> 
> Really, the gammon "steak" thing might just be there to suggest "big! thick! chunky!" to the consumer.


I remember my granny used to have rules I never understood as to when she’d call bacon “ham”. A “ham and egg flan” had bacon in it. Never got to grips with the rules there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I thought gammon _had_ to be served with pineapple?
> 
> Although, I’ve been a vegetarian for 35 years. I don’t think I’ve _seen_ gammon since the 70s. So it might be a 70s thing.
> 
> Also, in my life, I’d only ever heard it called “gammon steak”. The same way that people only ever used to say “tuna fish”.  Was the “steak” dropped around the time people stopped saying “tuna fish”?


You can get a quorn gammon steak


----------



## strung out (Oct 26, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I thought gammon _had_ to be served with pineapple?
> 
> Although, I’ve been a vegetarian for 35 years. I don’t think I’ve _seen_ gammon since the 70s. So it might be a 70s thing.
> 
> Also, in my life, I’d only ever heard it called “gammon steak”. The same way that people only ever used to say “tuna fish”.  Was the “steak” dropped around the time people stopped saying “tuna fish”?


They swapped, so now it's tuna steak and gammon fish.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 26, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> You can get a quorn gammon steak


But a gentleman is someone who chooses not to.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 26, 2018)

strung out said:


> They swapped, so now it's tuna steak and gammon fish.


 

Hipsters.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 26, 2018)

_It were funny with Elsie, God rest her soul.
She’d eat bacon all day long, but she’d never touch gammon.
– Oh.
– What do you think to that? Oh, I love a bit of the old gammo, me.
(Barbara) Oh, I like a bit of gammon.
– Especially with a bit of pineapple.
– Ooh.
– Do you, Barbara? – Yeah.
I like gammon.
And I like pineapple.
– But I don’t like gammon and pineapple.
– (Both) Oh.
I mean, to me that’s sweet and sour, that.
They’re two different meals.
I like gammon and egg.
I like gammon and chips.
– But I quite like – Bloody hell, Dave! All right, we’ve got the picture about the bloody gammo._

The Royle Family Script Series 3 Episode 4 | Comedy Quotes


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 26, 2018)

strung out said:


> They swapped, so now it's tuna steak and gammon fish.



That's genetic modification for you.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 28, 2018)

I'll stick this here because the other flare up threads have been closed, but well done to spy for getting the nonce kicked off.  I'm (really) not having a go at the mods, nor spy's afters with the mods, just saying fair play for getting on and making an issue of it. Probably like others I vaguely remember odd posts and thinking wtf, but never getting a cumulative memory of kesher gruesome posting history. Spy did, so well done.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 28, 2018)

Spy banned WTF?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 28, 2018)

Poi E said:


> Spy banned WTF?



From this post: Lolicon (Lolita Complex)

It's only 3 days.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 28, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> From this post: Lolicon (Lolita Compl
> 
> It's only 3 days.


Yeah, I'm not defending spy for those afters. Just saying fair play for seeing there was an overall pattern of horrible shit in kesher's posting and doing something about it (rather than giving individual posts a 'wtf' and then moving on as the rest of us probably did).


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2018)

White privilege
Piracy by the Mayor Of London


Not racism
Girl, 15, who conceived a son through rape when she was held as a sex slave | Daily Mail Online


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

fash scum


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

What is achieved through the application of pejorative labels? People don't 'challenge their own perceptions' when you insult them, they just think you are an imbecile, a wanker or worse.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2018)

Are you two talking to me?


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are you two talking to me?


Hello Magnus;
No I wasn't addressing anyone in particular.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> fash scum



Is this aimed at me?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2018)

Imagine forming progressive arguments around class only to be called fash by some idpol numpty.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2018)

You’re actually building the far right. Were you on the anti-Brexit march also? You’re signing the cheques for Tommy Robinson and giving the biggest shot of adrenaline to reactionary elements in the U.K. since the 70s.
And I’m ‘fash scum’.

_against fascists, whilst helping to build them_


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Gammon is an interesting word. Just like 'Garden' and 'Yard' are derivations of the Anglo-Saxon and Norse pronunciations of the Old Germanic Gaerten, an enclosed area have come to mean related but different concepts so 'Gammon' and 'Ham' derive from a Proto European word for leg 'haembe' but rooted through Latinate and Germanic pathways into the English langauge.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> fash scum



Not a very helpful label. I doubt, in my short peruse, that anyone here can be labeled a 'fash' even using the most vernacular interpretation. Without putting to fine a point on it; I don't think your clumsy idpol postings are having a positive impact.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

literal streicher bullshit

and the suggestion that we humour it is the kind of immigration mug nonsense that is why the left is fucked

of course it's "id pol" because that's what red liberal soc dem "radicals" call anything that doesn't pander to their basest instincts these days


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

fuck a positive impact

still thinking in terms of "winning over the class" like it's fucking 100 years ago


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

also people aren't either fascist or not, this is the kind of thing that makes people deny regimes are fascist because they have liberal elements


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> also people aren't either fascist or not, this is the kind of thing that makes people deny regimes are fascist because they have liberal elements



I have no idea what you are on about in any of your posts,


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

per


lucillemara said:


> literal streicher bullshit
> 
> and the suggestion that we humour it is the kind of immigration mug nonsense that is why the left is fucked
> 
> of course it's "id pol" because that's what red liberal soc dem "radicals" call anything that doesn't pander to their basest instincts these days


perhaps you can explain this


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

nah

fascism is winning and the left is like "let's do that but a bit nicer"


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> nah
> 
> fascism is winning and the left is like "let's do that but a bit nicer"



I apologise for not being nearly as clever as you but I still haven't a clue what you mean.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2018)

It reads like it’s Pengaleng’s new account would.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It reads like it’s Pengaleng’s new account would.


Pengaleng?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

fuck is that


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2018)

Lol ok.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I apologise for not being nearly as clever as you but I still haven't a clue what you mean.












ignore the lenin hagiography

this is good identity politics

bad identity politics is "diversify the bourgeoisie" (neoliberal approach) or "idpol alienates the working class" (bernie sanders/paul mason/shit left approach) which is white male workerist id pol used to shut down minorities who challenge the left's reproduction of racist patriarchal and capitalist dynamics in their own circles. both have fascist potentialities. to suggest that rejecting "they're coming for our women" propaganda is a gift to the right is surrender.


----------



## belboid (Oct 28, 2018)

I think you're throwing the word 'fascist' around just a wee bit loosely.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

have you looked at the world lately


----------



## belboid (Oct 28, 2018)

Yes


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

liberals have chosen fascism instead of abandoning their growth cult and this is where we are now


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)




----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 28, 2018)

This will be more interesting when you get your accounts mixed up and reply from the wrong one.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> this is good identity politics
> 
> bad identity politics is "diversify the bourgeoisie" (neoliberal approach) or "idpol alienates the working class" (bernie sanders/paul mason/shit left approach) which is white male workerist id pol used to shut down minorities who challenge the left's reproduction of racist patriarchal and capitalist dynamics in their own circles. both have fascist potentialities. to suggest that rejecting "they're coming for our women" propaganda is a gift to the right is surrender.



I disagree entirely. Alienating massively larger indigenous working class is what breeds fascism. The utterly hopeless policy of denial/coverup of liberal bourgeois government when faced with uncomfortable issues has enraged large portions of the traditional proletariat many of whom have turned to the far right given the paucity of support from other groupings.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I disagree entirely. Alienating massively larger indigenous working class is what breeds fascism. The utterly hopeless policy of denial/coverup of liberal bourgeois government when faced with uncomfortable issues has enraged large portions of the traditional proletariat many of whom have turned to the far right given the paucity of support from other groupings.




_Indigenous
Proletariat
Traditional
Working class_

I am sick to the back teeth of people using descriptions like this to mean 'White'. Why are you doing that?

If you mean White just say it. Wear your own IDPOLITICKING on your sleeve.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> _Indigenous
> Proletariat
> Traditional
> Working class_
> ...



Because I am white and not part of this group. I do not have to sell my labour and do not experience, thanks to my unearned class privelage, the alienation they encounter. It would be absurd to suggest I share the issues that they do.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Because I am white and not part of this group.



None of those words mean White. You are using them as code for 'Whiteness' You don't own those descriptions because you are White.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> None of those words mean White. You are using them as code for 'Whiteness' You don't own those descriptions because you are White.



I am using them to describe a specific group of white people ie those of the British Non Metropolitan,proletariat/lumpen proletariat. Not white people in general or, indeed, 'whiteness'.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I am using them to describe a specific group of white people ie those of the British Non Metropolitan,proletariat/lumpen proletariat. Not white people in general or, indeed, 'whiteness'.



So say White. Be clear and stop using terms that I can use to describe myself and others like me as code for White.


----------



## Athos (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ... bad identity politics is "diversify the bourgeoisie" (neoliberal approach) or "idpol alienates the working class" (bernie sanders/paul mason/shit left approach) which is white male workerist id pol used to shut down minorities who challenge the left's reproduction of racist patriarchal and capitalist dynamics in their own circles. both have fascist potentialities.



Don't you think it possible to critique the first species of 'bad identity politics' without either denying there's some value in Combahee River Collective's original conception, or falling into white male workerism?


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 28, 2018)

The working class is not white. In the UK it's made up of every ethnicity around, of whatever gender, any sexuality. And the thing we all have in common is we are exploited by the capitalist class. Anyone who talks in terms of 'indigenous' or 'white working class' is just another identity politico with their divide and rule bullshit.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 28, 2018)

Really wish Spy and ed would just bury that fucking hatchet.  It’s got well old.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

Athos said:


> Don't you think it possible to critique the first species of 'bad identity politics' without either denying there's some value in Combahee River Collective's original conception, or falling into white male workerism?



yes but far too many leftists and liberals, including almost all of the famous ones, use the appearance of doing this to indulge and give cover to reaction

did identity politics cause Trump? depends how you define your terms but in libleft media (jacobin, novara, as well as nyt etc) it tends to mean uppity minorities upset the real americans and Hillary should have been even more racist than she already was to placate them


----------



## Athos (Oct 28, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> The working class is not white. In the UK it's made up of every ethnicity around, of whatever gender, any sexuality. And the thing we all have in common is we are exploited by the capitalist class. Anyone who talks in terms of 'indigenous' or 'white working class' is just another identity politico with their divide and rule bullshit.



Yes, it's divisive to frame things in terms of 'not alienting the white working class', as opposed to 'not undermining working solidarity along racial lines'.  The former presumes white workers should be prioritised and their prejudices accommodated.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I disagree entirely. Alienating massively larger indigenous working class is what breeds fascism. The utterly hopeless policy of denial/coverup of liberal bourgeois government when faced with uncomfortable issues has enraged large portions of the traditional proletariat many of whom have turned to the far right given the paucity of support from other groupings.



the coverup, if you're implying what I think, is a coverup of police misogyny with a transparent lie that the credulous media bought because it spoke to classical proto-fascist anxieties and was allowed to fester and spread because of left-liberal cowardice and a total shutout of counterhegemonic views  

and yeah, not only is "indigenous" in this context identity politics, it's actual blood and soil shit so it's no wonder you're worried about overuse of the f word


----------



## Athos (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yes but far too many leftists and liberals, including almost all of the famous ones, use the appearance of doing this to indulge and give cover to reaction
> 
> did identity politics cause Trump? depends how you define your terms but in libleft media (jacobin, novara, as well as nyt etc) it tends to mean uppity minorities upset the real americans and Hillary should have been even more racist than she already was to placate them



I pretty much agree with this.  But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

I'm not, but I will side eye anyone who uses the phrase without being clear what they are referring to

another thing people need to stop doing is ignoring the bourgeois nature of fascism and blaming racism entirely on the "white working class", an abstract concept onto which white leftists, liberals and tories project their unacknowledged baggage onto so that they can simultaneously distance themselves from and pander to fascist sentiment


----------



## Athos (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm not, but I will side eye anyone who uses the phrase without being clear what they are referring to.



That's been a big part of the problem with discussing identity politics on these boards - people taking it mean different things, then talking past each other.  I'm not sure you over-free use of the f word helps with that, though.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> So say White. Be clear and stop using terms that I can use to describe myself and others like me as code for White.



Yeah..about that demanding thing...I dont do them.....

Indegenous...unless you are playing silly semantic games it doesnt just mean 'born here'


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the coverup, if you're implying what I think, is a coverup of police misogyny with a transparent lie that the credulous media bought because it spoke to classical proto-fascist anxieties and was allowed to fester and spread because of left-liberal cowardice and a total shutout of counterhegemonic views
> 
> and yeah, not only is "indigenous" in this context identity politics, it's actual blood and soil shit so it's no wonder you're worried about overuse of the f word




It was a cover up by police, social services and local politicians scared of being called racist...by people like you...thereby allowing the issue to fester and people assuming a more sinister agenda. I am not at all worried about your absurd use of the word.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Yeah..about that demanding thing...I dont do them.....
> 
> Indegenous...unless you are playing silly semantic games it doesnt just mean 'born here'



Back peddling like a good'un. You are using it to mean White. It only means that to those that think in _particular_ ways and are just too fucking chicken shit to say White because they are cowards. What are you scared of?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> It was a cover up by police, social services and local politicians scared of being called racist...by people like you...thereby allowing the issue to fester and people assuming a more sinister agenda. I am not at all worried about your absurd use of the word.



again, you are a credulous dupe for believing obvious pig lies and the sinister agenda is already there in your framing of the issue


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

because we all know how good the police usually are at dealing with sexual violence


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Back peddling like a good'un. You are using it to mean White. It only means that to those that think in _particular_ ways and are just too fucking chicken shit to say White because they are cowards. What are you scared of?


Oh do stop being so hysterical. I don't mean white as I said before I mean a sub set of white people.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> again, you are a credulous dupe for believing obvious pig lies and the sinister agenda is already there in your framing of the issue


Oh and you have all the special knowledge at your fingertips. Unless you can give me actual evidence I shall beleive that it was, indeed, covered up for that reason.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> again, you are a credulous dupe for believing obvious pig lies and the sinister agenda is already there in your framing of the issue


oh and 'pig lies'  ffs your use of Jargon is hilarious


----------



## Athos (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> It was a cover up by police, social services and local politicians scared of being called racist...by people like you...thereby allowing the issue to fester and people assuming a more sinister agenda. I am not at all worried about your absurd use of the word.



Anyone who's had any dealings with the police knows they're profoundly racist; the idea that, en masse, they'd miss a chance to bang up muslims is ridiculous.  The idea that they failed to act for fear of being accused of racism was a convenient _ex post facto_ excuse for their failure to act as a result of misogyny and classism.  Which isn't to say that everyone who believes tht lie is a fascist, or that we shouldn't engage with their wrongheaded concerns (but simply that we shouldn't indulge them with credibility).


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Oh do stop being so hysterical. I don't mean white as I said before I mean a sub set of white people.



Yes, you mean White. There is nothing hysterical about my knowing that and calling you on it.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

.





heebyjeeby said:


> Oh do stop being so hysterical. I don't mean white as I said before I mean a sub set of white people.



are you one of the good ones because you're middle class unlike the poor racist proles who just can't help themselves? 
also are you idpol-ing with your interesting choice of language here?



heebyjeeby said:


> Oh and you have all the special knowledge at your fingertips. Unless you can give me actual evidence I shall beleive that it was, indeed, covered up for that reason.



because you, despite your disavowals, are primed to be sympathetic to their narrative for shall we say identitarian reasons, despite blaming it all on the plebs



heebyjeeby said:


> oh and 'pig lies'  ffs your use of Jargon is hilarious



acab


----------



## 8ball (Oct 28, 2018)

In this country I think “indigenous” can generally only mean “people whose ancestry going back a few generations were mostly born here”.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

this usage is BNP language that we can thank Labour for helping to popularise as part of their "we're racist too" push in the Brown era


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes, you mean White. There is nothing hysterical about my knowing that and calling you on it.


'calling me' oh superb...really?  Oh dear this is like some sort of US college denouncing, get a grip


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> this usage is BNP language that we can thank Labour for helping to popularise as part of their "we're racist too" push in the Brown era


Oh do shut up. BNP language my arse


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> 'calling me' oh superb...really?  Oh dear this is like some sort of US college denouncing, get a grip



You need to calm down. Or, you could continue with these rather pathetic insults...


----------



## Athos (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Oh do shut up. BNP language my arse



I don't think using it is racist _per se_, but I do raise an eyebrow when it's used as code for white, given that's how it's used 135 times on the BNP website.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Athos said:


> I don't think using it is racist _per se_, but I do raise an eyebrow when it's used as code for white, given that's how it's used 135 times on the BNP website.


I wouldnt know. I have never read the BNP website. But raise your eyebrown then.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> You need to calm down. Or, you could continue with these rather pathetic insults...


I haven't insulted you at all, You need to get off your high horse with your 'calling out' shit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> I haven't insulted you at all, You need to get off your high horse with your 'calling out' shit.



Every time you use words like indigenous, traditional, working class as code for White you insult me. Pointing that out somehow makes me hysterical and now i'm on my high horse because...well because how very dare I turn the spotlight on the shortcomings of the way you are using language in such divisive and coded ways? 

Yeah alright...


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Every time you use words like indigenous, traditional, working class as code for White you insult me. Pointing that out somehow makes me hysterical and now i'm on my high horse because...well because how very dare I turn the spotlight on the shortcomings of the way you are using language in such divisive and coded ways?
> 
> Yeah alright...


rotflmao....you are insulted by my use of words to describe people who arent you....utterly pathetic...getting into a hissy fit because its not all about you . You are behaving like some sort of Maoist Red Guard running up and down denouncing me for 'incorrect usuage'.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

Are you pissed?


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Are you pissed?


obviously...think i would be dealing with your nonsense if I were sober


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> obviously...think i would be dealing with your nonsense if I were sober



I think you'd be posting less nonsense if you were sober...Well I hope you would but, who knows for sure?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 28, 2018)

hysterical maoist idpol call out thought police want to censor me because they're triggered by my free thought, no you're the one who's getting emotional


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 28, 2018)




----------



## belboid (Oct 28, 2018)

well, this has gone....well


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> hysterical maoist idpol call out thought police want to censor me because they're triggered by my free thought, no you're the one who's getting emotional


 triggered as fuck


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 28, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> hysterical maoist idpol call out thought police want to censor me because they're triggered by my free thought, no you're the one who's getting emotional


Go and have a nice lie down


----------



## Sue (Oct 28, 2018)

belboid said:


> well, this has gone....well


I literally have no idea what's going on but 'hysterical maoist idpol call out thought police' is definitely my new favourite phrase.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

fash:  the jews are importing subhuman foreigners to take our [sic] women and destroy the white race!!

libs:  are these sketchy looking foreigners coming for our women, as these controversial but charming populists claim? we believe in free speech, so let's hear them out and counter them by agreeing but more calmly, this is the only other acceptable side of the debate

"the left": if we don't take this seriously we'll never win over the working class, which is white and racist and separate from us, and ignoring their legitimate concerns is identity politics, so let's follow suit and make sure the discourse is free of any anti-racism and systemic critique of patriarchy and our beloved police, because socialism is about winning over the workers and keeping them under our thumb so we can educate them for their moral improvement and liberate them from their most pressing hardship, being called racist by guardian readers


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> fash:  the jews are importing subhuman foreigners to take our [sic] women and destroy the white race!!
> 
> libs:  are these sketchy looking foreigners coming for our women, as these controversial but charming populists claim? we believe in free speech, so let's hear them out and counter them by agreeing but more calmly, this is the only other acceptable side of the debate
> 
> "the left": if we don't take this seriously we'll never win over the working class, which is white and racist and separate from us, and ignoring their legitimate concerns is identity politics, so let's follow suit and make sure the discourse is free of any anti-racism and systemic critique of patriarchy and our beloved police, because socialism is about winning over the workers and keeping them under our thumb so we can educate them for their moral improvement and liberate them from their most pressing hardship, being called racist by guardian readers


I really thought you really bad, don't get me wrong. But you excel yourself with this. Do you actually know _anybody_ irl?


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

Lucillemara and heebyjeeby - two cheeks on the same identity raddled arse.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

pictured: the british working class in its entirety, ordinary people with legitimate concerns, who are sick of being called racist by the PC brigade

not wanting exterminate the korean people in a nuclear genocide is liberal idpol


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2018)

is this guests from question time?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

yes


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I really thought you really bad, don't get me wrong. But you excel yourself with this. Do you actually know _anybody_ irl?



yes I know tories and liberals and socialists who are bad and a few socialists and anarchists who are good but sometimes misguided

unfortunately a lot of people think liberals are anti-fascist instead of cautiously pro and some socialists think they are revolutionary because they like Corbyn and the NHS


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2018)

You heard some of the news relating to the bias on that programme relating to a former  Audience producer right


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

idk the BBC loves promoting fascism though


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2018)

wtf has that got to do with Korea btw

you mean the north right


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)




----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> pictured: the british working class in its entirety, ordinary people with legitimate concerns, who are sick of being called racist by the PC brigade
> 
> not wanting exterminate the korean people in a nuclear genocide is liberal idpol



Ok


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

hey guys is it still hysterical to use the f word


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2018)

Do you intend to say it in Capitals


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

the gammons of the world have literally destroyed everything and we are doomed. this is not a joke.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

speaking of liberals enabling fascism


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

"controversial"


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> speaking of liberals enabling fascism



How is it the fault of liberals?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

liberal media outlets working overtime to downplay and normalise his facsism


----------



## ska invita (Oct 29, 2018)

why not post this in the relevant thread rather than this reheated gammon one?

That newsweek one is incredible


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> It was a cover up by police, social services and local politicians scared of being called racist...by people like you...thereby allowing the issue to fester and people assuming a more sinister agenda. I am not at all worried about your absurd use of the word.



No it wasn't. The police, that bastion of political correctness gone mad and antiracism. They didn't want to get called racist cos that would upset them and that's why they didn't do anything.

Fuck all to do with class prejudice and people just not believing the 'chav scum'. 

They got away with it so long because of issues of class, not race.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the gammons of the world have literally destroyed everything and we are doomed. this is not a joke.



Not true. I just checked and Shane MacGowan is still intact. It will take more than a bit of gammon to see off that indestructible bastard. So they haven't destroyed everything, just got it really pissed and made its teeth fall out. Can still bang out a fine ballad though 



London Irish so I don't know if he's indigenous or not?

(The theme for this thread now appears to be 'fucking mental' so I decided to join in)


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> fash:  the jews are importing subhuman foreigners to take our [sic] women and destroy the white race!!
> 
> libs:  are these sketchy looking foreigners coming for our women, as these controversial but charming populists claim? we believe in free speech, so let's hear them out and counter them by agreeing but more calmly, this is the only other acceptable side of the debate
> 
> "the left": if we don't take this seriously we'll never win over the working class, which is white and racist and separate from us, and ignoring their legitimate concerns is identity politics, so let's follow suit and make sure the discourse is free of any anti-racism and systemic critique of patriarchy and our beloved police, because socialism is about winning over the workers and keeping them under our thumb so we can educate them for their moral improvement and liberate them from their most pressing hardship, being called racist by guardian readers



I recognise some of what describe in parts of the left.  But, again, I think your point is undermined by ridiculous hyperbole.  There are large parts of the left you've overlooked, and which actively resist the sort of attitudes and behaviours you've described.

And you've missed any nuance aground the need for the working class to discuss these issues amongst ourselves, with a false dichotomy: either we label as fascists everyone who, perhaps from desperation, might be attracted to the seemingly simple solutions offered by the right; or,  give those lies some credence in order to woo working class racists.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 29, 2018)

When I was an age when things seemed less nuanced, we used to say "Scratch a tory, find a nazi. Scratch a liberal, find a tory. Scratch a lot of so-called socialists, find liberals."

I don't think it's altogether untrue but it's naive to say that it's absolutely true, because:



Athos said:


> There are large parts of the left you've overlooked, and which actively resist the sort of attitudes and behaviours you've described.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the gammons of the world have literally destroyed everything and we are doomed. this is not a joke.


You are an utter parody. I'm a socialist. too bad I don't have your Americanocentric idpol obsessions


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> You are an utter parody. I'm a socialist. too bad I don't have your Americanocentric idpol obsessions



There is fuck all socialist about using terminology like traditional, indigenous and working class as code for White. There's no solidarity in that. It's you placing value and the concerns of some people above others that can all describe themselves using those terms by erasing them altogether in your discourse. Saying that doesn't make me or anyone else AmericanIDpol obsessive though it does expose the very exclusive nature of your so called _socialism _and reveal piss poor attempts to hide your own IDpoliticking perspective.

So yeah...speaking of parody...pot, meet kettle.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> You are an utter parody. I'm a socialist. too bad I don't have your Americanocentric idpol obsessions



Are you a national socialist, then?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 29, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Are you a national socialist, then?


And now the thread gets even more ridiculous.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Britain being the mixed up place it is though, I'd call anyone born here 'indigenous' regardless of their ethnic background.

It isn't a must to use words in the same way fascists use them. _Indigenous_ doesn't mean _aboriginal_, there are no _aboriginal_ people in the British isles, but anyone born here IMO has the right to call themselves indigenous. Like _native_, it's code for 'born here', not code for 'white'. No reason at all that BaME and mixed-heritage people can't be _indigenous. _


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> Britain being the mixed up place it is though, I'd call anyone born here 'indigenous' regardless of their ethnic background.
> 
> It isn't a must to use words in the same way fascists use them. _Indigenous_ doesn't mean _aboriginal_, there are no _aboriginal_ people in the British isles, but anyone born here IMO has the right to call themselves indigenous. Like _native_, it's code for 'born here', not code for 'white'. No reason at all that BaME and mixed-heritage people can't be _indigenous. _



Aye, good point but it just tends to turn up in right-wing discourse, on occasion...


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Well, _fuck_ right wing discourse


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 29, 2018)

Edgy new posters adding spice to the discourse

/


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Only to centrist dad 
Oh and Gammon...


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2018)

*Pages Sasaferrato, just for the lols.*


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 29, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> *Pages Sasaferrato, just for the lols.*



Sorry, whatever your point may be, it just passed overhead at 30,000 feet.

If you think I'm reading 34 pages of disjointed bollocks... life is too short. (I'm 66 you know.)


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> If you think I'm reading 34 pages of disjointed bollocks... life is too short


On this we completely agree.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> Britain being the mixed up place it is though, I'd call anyone born here 'indigenous' regardless of their ethnic background.
> 
> It isn't a must to use words in the same way fascists use them. _Indigenous_ doesn't mean _aboriginal_, there are no _aboriginal_ people in the British isles, but anyone born here IMO has the right to call themselves indigenous. Like _native_, it's code for 'born here', not code for 'white'. No reason at all that BaME and mixed-heritage people can't be _indigenous. _



Whether someone was born here, or settled here, I call them British.


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> Are you a national socialist, then?


Oh God.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Whether someone was born here, or settled here, I call them British.



Yeah fair enough, Britain is that kind of place. _Indigenous_ means native so not settled from elsewhere, but if someone settles and their kids are born native then IMO the kids have the right to call themselves _indigenous_, because that's what they are.

Using _indigenous_ as code for 'white' is extreme-right sophistry, based on conflating _indigenous_ with _aboriginal_. And as everything coming from that source, it's shite.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 29, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> Sorry, whatever your point may be, it just passed overhead at 30,000 feet.
> 
> If you think I'm reading 34 pages of disjointed bollocks... life is too short. (I'm 66 you know.)



obvious point, but when has not having a clue what a thread is about ever stopped you weighing in ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

cantsin said:


> obvious point, but when has not having a clue what a thread is about ever stopped you weighing in ?


that's the beauty of urban, no one needs a clue before weighing in on threads


----------



## Sue (Oct 29, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Edgy new posters adding spice to the discourse
> 
> /


Hysterical maoist idpol call out thought police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

hysterical maoist idpol call out thought police
they stand outside your cell rattling their keys
--ruddy yurts, 'the ballad of pentonville gaol'

Libertad existentialist


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

I thought it was a Fall LP


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> I thought it was a Fall LP


sadly not


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> Using _indigenous_ as code for 'white' is extreme-right sophistry, based on conflating _indigenous_ with _aboriginal_. And as everything coming from that source, it's shite.



No, no, no...just saying that makes you hysterical and other silly insults, apparently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> If you think I'm reading 34 pages of disjointed bollocks... life is too short. (I'm 66 you know.)


don't know what you're doing on urban then


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 29, 2018)

Hysterical! Maoist idpol call out-thought police


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Hysterical! Maoist idpol call out-thought police



You forgot American and obsessive.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 29, 2018)

"Hysterical! Maoist idpol call-out" thought police


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> There is fuck all socialist about using terminology like traditional, indigenous and working class as code for White. There's no solidarity in that. It's you placing value and the concerns of some people above others that can all describe themselves using those terms by erasing them altogether in your discourse. Saying that doesn't make me or anyone else AmericanIDpol obsessive though it does expose the very exclusive nature of your so called _socialism _and reveal piss poor attempts to hide your own IDpoliticking perspective.
> 
> So yeah...speaking of parody...pot, meet kettle.


Agree with you entirely about the word _indigenous_. Don't find it useful even at a descriptive level and has some biological echoes that are even less palatable. But with the rest of it - the rest of the issue, not your post - I think intention is key, where different people use the same terms for very different political purposes. Firstly, class should mean class, a category that describes a wide group of people who vary by age, gender, sexuality, ethnicity and the rest --but stand in a common relationship to capital and to other social classes. It's legitimate, proper and even necessary at times to note those differences, but actually raising part of that whole - 'white working class' - to the point where it becomes your dominant identity or politics is, well, _racist_.

Similarly when it comes to noting the impact of migration, I have no problem with terms like 'British working class' or 'existing working class', to distinguish the impact of change on different groups, the way that the working class is always diverse and always changes. Equally, there's no reason not to even get into difficult discussions about migration, globalisation and jobs for example (the bosses have no problem discussing it).  But again, it's about political perspective, class loyalties and intentions. If your starting point is to suggest migrants and the 'existing working class' have fundamentally different interests, there's something deeply wrong with your politics. If your aim is carry on looking for solidarity and to continue the struggle, there isn't.  [sorry Rutita1 that a bit random, not really a reply to you]


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2018)

Wilf said:


> It's legitimate, proper and even necessary at times to note those differences, but actually raising part of that whole - 'white working class' - to the point where it becomes your dominant identity or politics is, well, _racist_.


It’s worth pointing out that outlets like the Guardian, the BBC, and so on, all discuss “the white working class” as if it is obviously a discrete, homogenous entity. I don’t even mean to discuss people for whom that is an identity they assume, but as if it’s a common sense category.  And that, too, is literally racist.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

No surprises those two mouthpieces for the liberal wing of the capitalist class routinely use the term "white working class". No doubt they'd claim to be using it "sociologically" rather than papers like the Sun and the far right using it in an obviously racist way. It's still bullshit though. Class is not an identity, a color, a gender, an accent or how dirty your hands get at work. it's the overarching capitalist social relationship we are all bound to. Working class, meaning those of us who do not own or control the means of production and who have to sell our labour power to an exploiting boss class is the only definition worth a toss.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 29, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s worth pointing out that outlets like the Guardian, the BBC, and so on, all discuss “the white working class” as if it is obviously a discrete, homogenous entity. I don’t even mean to discuss people for whom that is an identity they assume, but as if it’s a common sense category.  And that, too, is literally racist.


Good article by Kenan Malik in, um, The Guardian about this. 

In British education, the central issue is class, not ethnicity | Kenan Malik


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> Yeah fair enough, Britain is that kind of place. _Indigenous_ means native so not settled from elsewhere, but if someone settles and their kids are born native then IMO the kids have the right to call themselves _indigenous_, because that's what they are.
> 
> Using _indigenous_ as code for 'white' is extreme-right sophistry, based on conflating _indigenous_ with _aboriginal_. And as everything coming from that source, it's shite.



Which is why I prefer simply 'British'.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 29, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Good article by Kenan Malik in, um, The Guardian about this.
> 
> In British education, the central issue is class, not ethnicity | Kenan Malik



More money spent on education would help. More teachers.

It goes against the grain, and I do see it as diminution of the nation, but we should scrap Trident, and spend the money on more useful things, like education and the NHS.

Scrap HS2 and use the money on high level technical schools.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 29, 2018)

Why would getting rid of Trident diminish the nation?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Why would getting rid of Trident diminish the nation?


And if that’s what it entails, why would we be opposed to “diminishing the nation”? I’m all for it.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

Anyway, I like a good ploughshare me.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

symbolic castration, war toys are phalluses in imperialist psychosexuality


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> symbolic castration, war toys are phalluses in imperialist psychosexuality


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

did you see trump bragging about his red button being bigger than kim's the subtext is text


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 29, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Why would getting rid of Trident diminish the nation?



Our move out of the nuclear club, loss of the ability to project power etc. Looking at it rationally though, whether it is desirable or not; and that is certainly up for debate; we cannot afford it. We would never have fired first, and a retaliatory strike is a little pointless when your land glows in the dark.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

wow a tory is talking more sense than anyone in the liberal media on this


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

We have no use for Trident. The ability of nuclear-armed subs to hide will soon be destroyed in any case.


----------



## Santino (Oct 29, 2018)

How about 'salty' as a new term to describe the views of gammons and gammon-like people?

"I had no wish to spend another morning frowning over eggs and bacon while Guppy Dinsdale rehearsed his rather salty views on various political debates." - P.G. Wodehouse, _What The Actual Fuck, Jeeves?_


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> and I do see it as diminution of the nation


Good. I'm all for diminishing the nation.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 29, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> Good. I'm all for diminishing the nation.



Which one?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 29, 2018)

Poi E said:


> Which one?



Switzerland


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

Take your pick. Start with the nearest and go from there.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 29, 2018)

They know how to engineer small things so they will outwit you!


----------



## Sasaferrato (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> wow a tory is talking more sense than anyone in the liberal media on this



I'm a pragmatist, always have been. When what the country wants is interfering with what the country needs, then the needs must come first.

Now is not the time to be scrimping on education. We are in for a very rocky ride post Brexit, our NHS etc are dependent on workers from abroad, and it takes time to train people.

Brexit - What a complete clusterfuck. Politicians quoting x% done and dusted, but _*not one single detail published, not one.*_


----------



## Poi E (Oct 29, 2018)

Zombie state. Time for a war.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

Santino said:


> How about 'salty' as a new term to describe the views of gammons and gammon-like people?


General gammons - salty
Middle class gammons - sea salt and balsamic vinegar


----------



## maomao (Oct 29, 2018)

Salty already has an extended meaning when referring to people that some of us aspire to. Here I am trying to be interestingly coarse and all of a sudden I'm a gammon? Fuck that.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

To be honest, I like to think of myself as a passive aggressive cunt. Does that give me any credits towards the full BSc Hons Gammon-Salty Joint Honours Award?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

Wilf said:


> To be honest, I like to think of myself as a passive aggressive cunt. Does that give me any credits towards the full BSc Hons Gammon-Salty Joint Honours Award?


30 points towards your target of 360


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> symbolic castration, war toys are phalluses in imperialist psychosexuality


I get your point and kind of agree to an extent but you somehow manage to phrase everything in a manner that is simultaneously patronising and tedious.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> 30 points towards your target of 360


To be honest, I failed the core brexit module.  Will I get a 2nd referendum resit opportunity?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

Wilf said:


> To be honest, I failed the core brexit module.  Will I get a 2nd referendum resit opportunity?


yes


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yes


And will there be any remoaners writing guardian articles telling me what a racist I am support over the resit period?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

not if you use that tone again


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> I get your point and kind of agree to an extent but you somehow manage to phrase everything in a manner that is simultaneously patronising and tedious.



nukes are like willies


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> nukes are like willies


I'd go doctors and get my willy looked at if I was you, that's not normal.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> nukes are like willies


More metaphor, less simile!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 29, 2018)

Wilf said:


> To be honest, I like to think of myself as a passive aggressive cunt.



Well, of course, _you would_ like to think that, wouldn't you?


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Wilf said:


> To be honest, I like to think of myself as a passive aggressive cunt. Does that give me any credits towards the full BSc Hons Gammon-Salty Joint Honours Award?



Depends if you_ weaponise your whiteness _so as to increase your cuntitude .. if you can work out how to, without actually tearing your skin off and chucking bits at people.


----------



## rekil (Oct 29, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> I'd go doctors and get my willy looked at if I was you, that's not normal.


An intersectional workers weapons industry will disdain backward and pseudo scientific notions such as 'aerodynamics'.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> nukes are like willies



One said, ''I came and my other half rose a foot off my body from the power of my ejaculation''
One said, ''_I_ came and my other half flew across the room from the power of _my _ejaculation.''
But the other said, ''I wiped my cock on the curtains and levelled a small European city.''


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

copliker said:


> An intersectional workers weapons industry will disdain backward and pseudo scientific notions such as 'aerodynamics'.


They may revive the auld soviet project of steam-driven aircraft


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> One said, ''I came and my other half rose a foot off my body from the power of my ejaculation''
> One said, ''_I_ came and my other half flew across the room from the power of _my _ejaculation.''
> But the other said, ''I wiped my cock on the curtains and levelled a small European city.''



Krakow?


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Nice.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> Depends if you_ weaponise your whiteness _so as to increase your cuntitude .. if you can work out how to, without actually tearing your skin off and chucking bits at people.



We've had a very good example of how to do that in the last 24 hours on this very thread.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

copliker said:


> An intersectional workers weapons industry will disdain backward and pseudo scientific notions such as 'aerodynamics'.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

copliker said:


> An intersectional workers weapons industry will disdain backward and pseudo scientific notions such as 'aerodynamics'.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> We've had a very good example of how to do that in the last 24 hours on this very thread.



Among all the weaponised language on this thread I may need the specifically white bit pointing out to me. Is it that bit where heebyjeeby (or whoever that is) startied on about the indigenous working class.

I understood that to mean _the working class of native-born British, including BaME people born in Britain_ - as opposed to _all those WC forrins coming over here n took are jobs etc_.

It's not a distinction I tend to make, _working class _to me means _working class from wherever living wherever_. I think it's a dubious distinction to make. But I didn't think, as you did, that it was code for White People Working Class, more that it was code for British People Of Any Shade Working Class.

That's just interpretation, I'm not saying which is better. I'm not sure anyone's been weaponising race here except for lucillemara , and that's clearly their style.


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> I understood that to mean _the working class of native-born British, including BaME people born in Britain_ - as opposed to _all those WC forrins coming over here n took are jobs etc_.
> 
> ... But I didn't think, as you did, that it was code for White People Working Class, more that it was code for British People Of Any Shade Working Class.



The poster explicitly confirmed they were talking about white working class people.



heebyjeeby said:


> I am using them to describe a specific group of white people ie those of the British Non Metropolitan,proletariat/lumpen proletariat.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

OK fair enough, I missed it. I skipped a lot of the bickering.
So is that weaponised? Not sure.
But it is 'race-specific', I accept that.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

I think bringing up "muslim rape gangs" and anti-white crime was weaponising race
things have implications beyond what they literally mean or what people intend and with the long history of fascist appropriation of socialist rhetoric and socialist parties embracing liberal racism to their doom there needs to be a keener eye for it than there currently seems to be

the idea or implication that taking race seriously in a structural sense is liberal or anti-working class is also weaponising race and it can't be challenged often enough even though it's tedious and repetitive


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> OK fair enough, I missed it. I skipped a lot of the bickering.
> So is that weaponised? Not sure.
> But it is 'race-specific', I accept that.



I think it exposed a bias. Not sure I'd go so far as to say it weaponised race.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> OK fair enough, I missed it. I skipped a lot of the bickering.
> So is that weaponised? Not sure.
> But it is 'race-specific', I accept that.



it's weaponised specifically to literally whitewash and essentialise the working class (by implication at least) turning it into a narrow abstraction for browbeating the real people excluded from it, and to drive a wedge between the class over alleged irreconcilable differences, a common rhetorical move I hate that tries to disavow itself as it's made so that to argue against it will always be missing the point, it's also literal identity politics of the worst (proto-fascist) kind


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

OK. heebyjeeby , you're up.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> nukes are like willies



has Valve been posting on this thread


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I think bringing up "muslim rape gangs" and anti-white crime was weaponising race
> things have implications beyond what they literally mean or what people intend and with the long history of fascist appropriation of socialist rhetoric and socialist parties embracing liberal racism to their doom there needs to be a keener eye for it than there currently seems to be
> 
> the idea or implication that taking race seriously in a structural sense is liberal or anti-working class is also weaponising race and it can't be challenged often enough even though it's tedious and repetitive



Muslim grooming gangs are a reality and no amount of posturing makes it go away and they were a racist endeavour.  They were enabled by police,social workers and local government for a variety of reasons fear of being called racist being an obvious one. Class not race is the defining issue. Idpol itself is a liberal position popular amongst the monied middle classes of the USA


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> OK fair enough, I missed it. I skipped a lot of the bickering.
> So is that weaponised? Not sure.
> But it is 'race-specific', I accept that.



Using terms such as indigenous/traditional/working class as code to mean White, excludes everyone else who fits those descriptions. It  places value on 'Whiteness' and positions it as powerful. This is nothing new. a lot of institutionialised racism has done the same thing for centuries now. Make something 'invisible' by never actually naming it whilst exalting it as the default perspective. So yeah, weaponised.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Muslim grooming gangs are a reality and no amount of posturing makes it go away and they were a racist endeavour.  They were enabled by police,social workers and local government for a variety of reasons fear of being called racist being an obvious one. Class not race is the defining issue. Idpol itself is a liberal position popular amongst the monied middle classes of the USA



you have never once mentioned the danger posed to the working class posed by the non-muslim grooming gangs because you do not give a shit, and your uncritical repetition of the state line can only be a deliberate tactic at this point

so again we're equivocating with the meaning of class, using a racialised idpol definition when useful to attack idpol without any sense of irony, asserting the primacy of class is supposed to be a reminder of materialism but this the opposite

"class not race" is basically not even wrong as far as this goes since there is no basic understanding of the terms involved


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ,


That's your best post to date


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 29, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> Muslim grooming gangs are a reality and no amount of posturing makes it go away and they were a racist endeavour.  They were enabled by police,social workers and local government for a variety of reasons fear of being called racist being an obvious one.



not that white men don't preform grooming or have history for it

hey we used to give them Tv and Radio Shows


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Using terms such as indigenous/traditional/working class as code to mean White, excludes everyone else who fits those descriptions. It  places value on 'Whiteness' and positions it as powerful. This is nothing new. a lot of institutionialised racism has done the same thing for centuries now. Make something 'invisible' by never actually naming it whilst exalting it as the default perspective. So yeah, weaponised.



IMO distinguishing between ''Indigenous Working Class'' and ''Foreign Working Class'' - even if there's nothing racialised in it and it's only about native / non-native workers - is a bad idea with horrible roots and nasty objectives. It only benefits owners / bosses / capital to make such a distinction. If it is racialised then worse still, but it's already a dodgy thing to be doing whatever _indigenous _is meant to mean in_ indigenous working class._


----------



## A380 (Oct 29, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Why would getting rid of Trident diminish the nation?



Because we don’t want to have the only navy in the world that used to be  able to burn down Paris but couldn’t any more...


----------



## A380 (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> nukes are like willies



What, almost half the population has at least one?


----------



## Poi E (Oct 29, 2018)

Use imprudently and your world may drastically change.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> IMO distinguishing between ''Indigenous Working Class'' and ''Foreign Working Class'' - even if there's nothing racialised in it and it's only about native / non-native workers - is a bad idea with horrible roots and nasty objectives. It only benefits owners / bosses / capital to make such a distinction. If it is racialised then worse still, but it's already a dodgy thing to be doing whatever _indigenous _is meant to mean in_ indigenous working class._


Why are you telling me? I know. 

You specifically questioned why i saw what was being posted as 'weaponising' Whiteness. I've explained it. A bit baffled why I'm having to explain such a widely known process as 'othering' in the first place tbh. But there it is.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

I didn't question why you saw anything as anything, and you chose to explain othering, nobody made you. Otherwise, I agree.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> IMO distinguishing between ''Indigenous Working Class'' and ''Foreign Working Class'' _._



I think it mostly comes from the “we’re a minority in our own country” whine, which goes well with their perception of the benefits they see other indigenous populations as getting (certain protections and measures etc.).

So they want what they see as the protections that are due to them.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

Definitely. It's easy to understand, too, but it's wrong and needs challenging wherever it comes up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> I didn't question why you saw anything as anything, and you chose to explain othering, nobody made you. Otherwise, I agree.



  Righto!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> So is that weaponised? Not sure.
> But it is 'race-specific', I accept that.



Righto...you never posted this. I"ve just fabricated it.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

You chose to explain, I never asked you to.
Thank you for the explanation anyway.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 29, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> You chose to explain, I never asked you to.
> Thank you for the explanation anyway.



Soz, was that at me?
I think you were bang on when you mentioned the conflation with “aboriginal”.  Which historically speaking is a stretch for anyone living here.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

no, it was a reply to the post above it.
for clarification, this is also a reply to the post above it.


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> You specifically questioned why i saw what was being posted as 'weaponising' Whiteness.



No they didn't. The question wasn't addressed to you.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I think bringing up "muslim rape gangs" and anti-white crime was weaponising race
> things have implications beyond what they literally mean or what people intend and with the long history of fascist appropriation of socialist rhetoric and socialist parties embracing liberal racism to their doom there needs to be a keener eye for it than there currently seems to be
> 
> the idea or implication that taking race seriously in a structural sense is liberal or anti-working class is also weaponising race and it can't be challenged often enough even though it's tedious and repetitive



Just fuck off. Those rapey cunts move the underage girls between properties so let’s not pretend that class has nothing to do with how they manage to remove vulnerable girls from their lives to become prostitutes. 
The race angle is when they call them ‘white trash’ whilst raping them. But, not racist according to liberal apologists. Because imperialism.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just fuck off. Those rapey cunts move the underage girls between properties so let’s not pretend that class has nothing to do with how they manage to remove vulnerable girls from their lives to become prostitutes.
> The race angle is when they call them ‘white trash’ whilst raping them. But, not racist according to liberal apologists. Because imperialism.



fuck you you evil fucking cunt, don't even pretend you give a shit about the victims here
no more humouring the likes of you

nazi image removed


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

while I don't know the history between posters here, it's interesting to note that, while fascist rherotic is challenged to an extent, there has been a bizarre reaction to the most reasonable posts on the thread (not by me), to the extent that it's a noticeable undercurrent even without knowing urban internal politics, and I have to question why this is


----------



## 8ball (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> fuck you you evil fucking cunt, don't even pretend you give a shit about the victims here
> no more humouring the likes of you



The charm school called.  
Apparently Ofsted have ruled that you're due a quite considerable rebate.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

just providing some historical context


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

it bears repeating because it keeps happening, and yet again it's the anti-idpol people who are trying to split the working class into ethnonationalist factions


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it bears repeating because it keeps happening, and yet again it's the anti-idpol people who are trying to split the working class into ethnonationalist factions


#notallanti-idpolpeople


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> while I don't know the history between posters here, it's interesting to note that, while fascist rherotic is challenged to an extent, there has been a bizarre reaction to the most reasonable posts on the thread (not by me), to the extent that it's a noticeable undercurrent even without knowing urban internal politics, and I have to question why this is



What reaction, to which posts?


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

Hmm... I'm anti idpol and I think you'll find I've taken a pro-revolutionary class struggle internationalist position. Still, carry on.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

I deleted the image because it's horrible

but I am pissed off with what is happening here. ban me by all means i've been a cunt, but I don't know why these sentiments are allowed and why other much milder sentiments get so much more pushback.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

don't mean to erase people, I am lazy and use broad brushes and have baggage from elsewhere


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> fuck you you evil fucking cunt, don't even pretend you give a shit about the victims here
> no more humouring the likes of you



Only you are challenging me. I’m sure others are twitching slightly whilst grudgingly accepting I have a point.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

if that is the case then it is a lost cause
you are a collaborator


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2018)

According to an article I have neither referenced or mentioned.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

we live in a society


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2018)

At least windup he right targets, ninj


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

hey I found your mates


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

it's time to admit white men have a serious problem


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2018)




----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> if that is the case then it is a lost cause
> you are a collaborator



Is there any reason you're equating people's comments with the Daily Mail and Third Reich nazis? I dunno, maybe I missed the connection. I've seen posts I agreed with, others i disagreed with, others I thought were a bit shit, reformist, reactionary, etc, etc... but (unless I've missed it) I've not spotted any what you'd call nazi or Daily Mail stuff here yet.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> Is there any reason you're equating people's comments with the Daily Mail and Third Reich nazis? I dunno, maybe I missed the connection. I've seen posts I agreed with, others i disagreed with, others I thought were a bit shit, reformist, reactionary, etc, etc... but (unless I've missed it) I've not spotted any what you'd call nazi or Daily Mail stuff here yet.



They’re on a windup.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

here's another grooming gang, or rather a branch of the biggest one on earth, these people seem to have a cultural proclivity for this disgusting behaviour


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> here's another grooming gang, or rather a branch of the biggest one on earth, these people seem to have a cultural proclivity for this disgusting be



Now you’re just bullying a minority.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

I'm on a wind up in the sense that I am attempting to provoke a reaction because this stuff should provoke strong reactions and I do not believe the specific fixation indulged in this thread is held out of any kind of concern for victims- the downplaying of patriarchy in favour of ethnicity shows there is no real interest in dealing with this worldwide epidemic- and I am trying to demonstrate that this rhetoric is dangerous and has actual context


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Now you’re just bullying a minority.



now this is an interesting reaction. I think it says it all really. 
close the thread. all you need is the title.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> Is there any reason you're equating people's comments with the Daily Mail and Third Reich nazis? I dunno, maybe I missed the connection. I've seen posts I agreed with, others i disagreed with, others I thought were a bit shit, reformist, reactionary, etc, etc... but (unless I've missed it) I've not spotted any what you'd call nazi or Daily Mail stuff here yet.



the phrase "muslim rape gangs" has appeared repeatedly, I don't think I need to tell you who else talks like that
the person I am pissed off with has been pushing this hard and now he's getting offended on behalf of catholics
we shouldn't tolerate ethnic explanations for sexual violence, I'm sure everyone knows the history


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

more context


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

some, I assume, are good people


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

thankfully trump's critics don't have to worry about being called racist, which is why he's currently in jail for serial rape along with bill clinton and that brett guy


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

as noted on the previous page, savile died in his cell and davidson is rotting in his


----------



## Celyn (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> as noted on the previous page, savile died in his cell and davidson is rotting in his


Didn't Savile die in his home?  Much of the outrage is precisely because he got away with everything while alive.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

no he was white so the PC establishment had no problem apprehending him


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the phrase "muslim rape gangs" has appeared repeatedly, I don't think I need to tell you who else talks like that
> the person I am pissed off with has been pushing this hard and now he's getting offended on behalf of catholics
> we shouldn't tolerate ethnic explanations for sexual violence, I'm sure everyone knows the history


Okay. I missed that. Terms like "muslim rape gangs" is shit. So wouldn't it be better to say why it's shit, using that as a starting point rather than going straight to "you are a nazi" or "you are the Daily Mail"??? How do you deal with such comments at work? In your neighbourhood? Because they are commonplace these days. Do you call people nazis or do you try and say why comments like "muslim rape gangs" are wrong?


----------



## A380 (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it's time to admit white men have a serious problem


Yeah I’m a white man and I have a serious problem: If a jet aircraft was put on a giant treadmill where the  speed could be adjusted to immediately match the speed of the wheels, and then plane’s engines started, would it ever take off?


----------



## Celyn (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> as noted on the previous page, savile died in his cell and davidson is rotting in his



Who is Davidson and where is he mentioned on the previous page?


----------



## Celyn (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no he was white so the PC establishment had no problem apprehending him


He seemed NOT to be "apprehended".


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Who is Davidson and where is he mentioned on the previous page?


Jim Davidson. On the front page of the Mail. He’s rotting in his home in Dubai, as far as I was aware.


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

Celyn, it's sarcasm.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 29, 2018)

Ah. Thanks. Neither of the malefactors mentioned are in cells. I suppose Savile is rotting (unless cremated), so that bit would be accurate.

Odd thread, this.


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the phrase "muslim rape gangs" has appeared repeatedly, I don't think I need to tell you who else talks like that
> the person I am pissed off with has been pushing this hard and now he's getting offended on behalf of catholics
> we shouldn't tolerate ethnic explanations for sexual violence, I'm sure everyone knows the history



'Muslim rape gangs' has appeared twice on this thread; once in your post above, and once in another post of yours!  You're tilting at windmills. And your strategy for doing even that is counter-productive.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> Okay. I missed that. Terms like "muslim rape gangs" is shit. So wouldn't it be better to say why it's shit, using that as a starting point rather than going straight to "you are a nazi" or "you are the Daily Mail"??? How do you deal with such comments at work? In your neighbourhood? Because they are commonplace these days. Do you call people nazis or do you try and say why comments like "muslim rape gangs" are wrong?



I am more diplomatic without the internet and if I think it is coming from a place of genuine ignorance I will try to change their mind. Bad faith like this guy's is usually easy enough to detect by I don't spend time with anyone who is heavily into the ideology to the point of repeatedly using the phrase while downplaying catholic predators. I don't think it's wrong to point out that fascism isn't a radical break from the stuff we are familiar with, or that this stuff literally kills people.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

Athos said:


> 'Muslim rape gangs' has appeared twice on this thread; once in your post above, and once in another post of yours!  You're tilting at windmills. And your strategy for doing even that is counter-productive.



I apologise, it was "muslim grooming gangs", I need to brush up on my far right vocabulary

do you think the constant media portrayal of certain minorities as inherently predatory is a problem or not? is it an important part of fascist discourse or not?


----------



## Athos (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I apologise, it was "muslim grooming gangs", I need to brush up on my far right vocabulary



Used once. By one poster.  With whom nobody has agreed. And, who, in any event, is likely a sock puppet of yours, lucillemara/dialectician.


----------



## A380 (Oct 29, 2018)

likesfish : in relation to this thread...


----------



## Wilf (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> .* ban me* by all means i've been a cunt.


 What, _again_?


----------



## Celyn (Oct 29, 2018)

Athos said:


> Celyn, it's sarcasm.


Ah. The poster seemed not to see the sarcasm about the Catholic church, so I wasn't sure.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

Athos said:


> Used once. By one poster.  With whom nobody has agreed. And, who, in any event, is likely a sock puppet of yours, lucillemara/dialectician.



I have a far right sock to argue with myself for shits and giggles why exactly? I know I don't come across well, partly because I'm genuinely angry even when flippant and I actually care about this more than being nice to people I don't know and have little in common with but naively thought might share more concerns than seems to be the case.  Is that so hard to believe? I am scared and pissed off and unhappy with things and two of my least favourite elements - idpol/anti-idpol and fascist appropriation of sexual violence - were available to yell at, partly directed at one person and partly towards tendencies and people from elsewhere. I assumed talking generally about broad trends would be understood as that - my mistake -  and that people would understand what fascist discourse looks like and how it spreads and know to shut it down - you're better than Reddit I guess. If the right didn't exist the left would be the enemy.

I've been accused of about 5 different old posters by now I think.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 29, 2018)

It happens to everyone who turns up making a big noise, nothing personal.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 29, 2018)

I'm not planning to stick around for long which will be a relief to everyone myself included- I wonder if there is a story behind the Magnus McGinty's ♂️ which isn't something that would explain his forefronting of certain elements over others in the instance of sexual violence he cares about

why is everyone so fucking calm?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 29, 2018)




----------



## rekil (Oct 29, 2018)

Spoiler


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 29, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm not planning to stick around for long which will be a relief to everyone myself included- I wonder if there is a story behind the Magnus McGinty's ♂️ which isn't something that would explain his forefronting of certain elements over others in the instance of sexual violence he cares about
> 
> why is everyone so fucking calm?



Seen it all before


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> you have never once mentioned the danger posed to the working class posed by the non-muslim grooming gangs because you do not give a shit, and your uncritical repetition of the state line can only be a deliberate tactic at this point
> 
> so again we're equivocating with the meaning of class, using a racialised idpol definition when useful to attack idpol without any sense of irony, asserting the primacy of class is supposed to be a reminder of materialism but this the opposite
> 
> "class not race" is basically not even wrong as far as this goes since there is no basic understanding of the terms involved



'I don't give a shit' you havent a clue what I care about.'Deliberate tactic' of what?


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> while I don't know the history between posters here, it's interesting to note that, while fascist rherotic is challenged to an extent, there has been a bizarre reaction to the most reasonable posts on the thread (not by me), to the extent that it's a noticeable undercurrent even without knowing urban internal politics, and I have to question why this is


No one here is a fascist you fucking rape apologist.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it's time to admit white men have a serious problem


ah now we have the idpol nonsense of race hatred. You really are very sad indeed


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2018)

So, which one of you is a returning banned poster? Or are both of you?

Just curious as to why you do it, again and again. Is it unfinished business, a grudge, or plain old beef with a few urbanites?


----------



## likesfish (Oct 30, 2018)

A380 said:


> likesfish : in relation to this thread...
> 
> View attachment 151126



retires smugly my work here is done


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> So, which one of you is a returning banned poster? Or are both of you?
> 
> Just curious as to why you do it, again and again. Is it unfinished business, a grudge, or plain old beef with a few urbanites?



Lucille is clearly Dialectician.  The topics, the MO, the language, the tabulation etc.  A particularly obvious clue being that new paragraphs are started without a capital letter.  Suspect the other is a sock puppet, because nobody was taking the bait (but less sure).


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 30, 2018)

I concur.


----------



## xenon (Oct 30, 2018)

Athos said:


> Lucille is clearly Dialectician.  The topics, the language, the tabulation etc.  A particularly obvious clue being that new paragraphs are started without a capital letter.  Suspect the other is a sock puppet, because nobody was taking the bait (but less sure).



 I don’t think so. He is using a lot of pictures.  But maybe he’s got more patience with Google image search than I.


----------



## xenon (Oct 30, 2018)

I don’t mind either way TBH. Thread has gone weird, sometimes interesting.


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

xenon said:


> I don’t think so. He is using a lot of pictures.  But maybe he’s got more patience with Google image search than I.


All text heavy.


----------



## xenon (Oct 30, 2018)

Athos said:


> All text heavy.



 What are, the pictures?  I don’t know how he is doing it exactly then. Because my screen readers certainly don’t read any of the text in those images.


----------



## A380 (Oct 30, 2018)

See that’s the difference between you and me. We often arrive at the same conclusion, but you do it through forensic analysis of posts, building up an evidence base and then making a cogent argument,* whereas I post up stupid shit I find on line.

(* Where’s the fun in that?)





A380 said:


> View attachment 150531





Athos said:


> Lucille is clearly Dialectician.  The topics, the MO, the language, the tabulation etc.  A particularly obvious clue being that new paragraphs are started without a capital letter.  Suspect the other is a sock puppet, because nobody was taking the bait (but less sure).


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

A380 said:


> See that’s the difference between you and me. We often arrive at the same conclusion, but you do it through forensic analysis of posts, building up an evidence base and then making a cogent argument,* whereas I post up stupid shit I find on line.
> 
> (* Where’s the fun in that?)



Horses for courses. There's something to be said for the speed of heuristic methods.


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

xenon said:


> What are, the pictures?  I don’t know how he is doing it exactly then. Because my screen readers certainly don’t read any of the text in those images.



I don't know enough abbot the technology to answer that, I'm afraid.  The other clues are pretty strong, though.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> now this is an interesting reaction. I think it says it all really.
> close the thread. all you need is the title.



It was a joke. Never mind.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 30, 2018)

I’m willing to believe Lucille is a new poster.  Whomever it is, though, they come across as young.  Whether that’s because they are young or because they’ve never developed their communication style I don’t know. But they strongly remind me of an enthusiastic 22 year old who has only just discovered how fucking unfair social structures actually are and is keen to tell the world about it.  And assumes everyone else is a reactionary bigot who has never come across these ideas before.

Lucille, most of your underlying points are entirely reasonable.  But it’s all couched in such an antagonistic and pugnacious style that I have no desire to get involved with your conversations.  Surely, you want engagement and not to actively put people off?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 30, 2018)

Edited. I was being slow.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm on a wind up in the sense that I am attempting to provoke a reaction because this stuff should provoke strong reactions and I do not believe the specific fixation indulged in this thread is held out of any kind of concern for victims- the downplaying of patriarchy in favour of ethnicity shows there is no real interest in dealing with this worldwide epidemic- and I am trying to demonstrate that this rhetoric is dangerous and has actual context



With respect, you're doing a spectacularly bad job of it. You come across like a teenager with a bad attitude who just ate their critical studies text book and is now puking out passages seemingly at random.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> hey I found your mates



Except I’m not being a liberal apologist for this kind of offending and thus providing a platform for the far right to organise around.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 30, 2018)

kabbes said:


> I’m willing to believe Lucille is a new poster.  Whomever it is, though, they come across as young.  Whether that’s because they are young or because they’ve never developed their communication style I don’t know. But they strongly remind me of an enthusiastic 22 year old who has only just discovered how fucking unfair social structures actually are and is keen to tell the world about it.  And assumes everyone else is a reactionary bigot who has never come across these ideas before.
> 
> Lucille, most of your underlying points are entirely reasonable.  But it’s all couched in such an antagonistic and pugnacious style that I have no desire to get involved with your conversations.  Surely, you want engagement and not to actively put people off?



I'm sure we've done (more than) our fair share of 'youngsplaining'.

I was explained the rise of Franco by 17 yr olds yesterday!  I listened with interest.

One thing about 'fascist rhetoric' is that it takes expressions and images and skunks them over. In a space of ten years the Union flag on a t-shirt went from being all Carnaby St and groovy to being NF-BNP code. A lot of what might strike someone now as fash-y, what Lucille calls 'fascist rhetoric', might easily be
used by someone of another generation without the same resonances.

(My father, not a fascist, put his pre-war editions of Kipling, all beautifully illustrated with Swastikas, in a box in 1938 and never took them out again)



lucillemara said:


> what fascist discourse looks like and how it spreads and know to shut it down



I think we've got a pretty good idea. It has been shut down before. Not completely, but quite effectively. You're talking to people who have acquainted fascists with the pavement. How we talked at the time might have then and might now sound neanderthal, though.'White working class' might have once been a useful term, though I wonder, but it's not a 'dog-whistle' for every single person who uses it today just because it was appropriated by fascists.


----------



## xenon (Oct 30, 2018)

White working class as a phrase got used a lot   In criticisms and analysis of the 90s top-down multiculturalist  rhetoric and policies of New Labour.  Particularly in reference to education, as a group who were apparently overlooked   Left to fail. Of course a lot of this criticism came from the people who implemented policies got to that state.  Class was not going to be there  emphasis .  But that sort top-down multiculturalism foreshadows  many  of the problems with idpol.


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

In any event, the only uses of the term 'white working class' on this thread have been to criticise it!  It's a manufactured non-argument; Lucille is shooting at shadows.  The nearest anyone has come is the other 'new' poster (likely a sock puppet)!


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2018)

I'd put money on them _both_ being RBPs. But we'll see sooner or late, I imagine.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 30, 2018)

krtek a houby said:


> I'd put money on them _both_ being RBPs. But we'll see sooner or late, I imagine.



Random ball pains?


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 30, 2018)

8ball said:


> Random ball pains?



Returning banned posters but sure, that's a fair description


----------



## JimW (Oct 30, 2018)

Maybe it's the rascal pig bloke in his lucid spells.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 30, 2018)

Athos said:


> Lucille is shooting at shadows


A lot. I mean, my personal yardstick on any thread is “have I posted more than pickmans?” 

 

My advice to lucillemara, whoever they are, is to chose one question and see what the response to that is before moving on.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2018)

...and open the door.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 30, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> ...and open the door.


Richard?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> A lot. I mean, my personal yardstick on any thread is “have I posted more than pickmans?”
> .


... and have I been banned more than Spymaster.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 30, 2018)

Wilf said:


> ... and have I been banned more than Spymaster.


CUNTS!!!!!!!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

8ball said:


> Random ball pains?



Rapey bloke pardoners?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 30, 2018)

Well bringing things back from (in my opinion) over intellectual arguments I want to throw in a few real world examples myself and my staff team have faced in the last seven days. 

A couple, him white her black lost their temper and abused my staff. He made a series of comments towards the black staff that included highly racislised and abusive terms. She was highly abusive but did not use racially loaded terms. 
I had both removed, abuse not being acceptable. 
I viewed his abuse as racist and hers merely cultish. 
He said he could not be racist pointing to his highly supportive black wife. 

Two days later an older black lady with mobility issues was highly abusive towards a white euro staff member shouting "we voted Brexit to get rid of people like you. Fuck off to your own country you bastard" 
I intervened and she denied abuse (I witnessed it) and then called me a bastard and after throwing her stick to the floor shouted to all in the crowded area that I had called her a monkey. She carried on in this vein. Harder to throw her out given her age, the risk to my reputation and that of my employer and the growing obviousness of her despicable character. 
Still, no travel today for you. 

Today a black passenger abused a black driver calling her a bush lady bitch amongst other insults. My colleague (black) dealt with this and got called racially loaded insults himself. 
No travel for this passenger. 

So getting away from the logically torturous definitions of racism for a minute,  let's look at the impacts of these actions. 

Incident 1. Staff visibly upset. Vocalising that they endure abuse almost daily. 

Incident 2. Staff had terrible weekend, He reported difficulty sleeping and wife had mentioned he was withdrawn. I was really shaken and upset. 

Incident 3. The driver was so upset she had to be replaced on her soon to depart international service. She was crying. 

For the wider staff team, incidents like these have a real effect on morale. Abuse can be thrown by any human to another and the effects can be large and long lasting. 

Which (If any) do you think involved racist abuse?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

Any abuse with a racial epithet attached to it is racist abuse.
I’m willing to accept that the barb is probably  more painful for a PoC than than someone who is white, but I don’t think that extends to circumstances where the PoC clearly holds power over someone on the receiving end because of colonialism.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 30, 2018)

All of them.
Next!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

What annoys me about the idpol position of only whites can be racist (because colonialism) is it ignores the volume of PoC who have positions of power. The state accommodates that as their version of equality.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2018)

Eastern Europeans can and do suffer racist abuse in the UK. If that abuse comes from a white person or black person, doesn't matter. It's still racist abuse. For me the question is 'is this definition that means black people can't be racist somewhere like the UK' useful or does it in fact muddy the waters and obscure the fact that the same process is repeating itself. Exactly the same things are happening to, for instance, Poles or Romanians today as happened to, for instance, Afro-Caribbean immigrants in generations past: through identification either via physical characteristics or accent or a bit of both, you're identified as 'not from here' and you should 'fuck off back where you came from'. That such attitudes come from a black person in no way diminishes their racist nature.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 30, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> CUNTS!!!!!!!





Magnus McGinty said:


> Rapey bloke pardoners?





TopCat said:


> Well bringing things back from (in my opinion) over intellectual arguments...



Sorry TC, no offence intended. Just tickled me reading those three posts in  a row


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 30, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Eastern Europeans can and do suffer racist abuse in the UK. If that abuse comes from a white person or black person, doesn't matter. It's still racist abuse. For me the question is 'is this definition that means black people can't be racist somewhere like the UK' useful or does it in fact muddy the waters and obscure the fact that the same process is repeating itself. Exactly the same things are happening to, for instance, Poles or Romanians today as happened to, for instance, Afro-Caribbean immigrants in generations past: through identification either via physical characteristics or accent or a bit of both, you're identified as 'not from here' and you should 'fuck off back where you came from'. That such attitudes come from a black person in no way diminishes their racist nature.


When my dad moved from Ireland to England in or around 1960, he travelled around the country for a while and lived in digs for the most part. He reckons when he lived in Birmingham, most B&Bs wouldn't accept 'Paddies', and a lot of them had signs in the windows, stating:
"No Irish, No Blacks, No dogs".
Racism was rife back then, and it didn't matter if you were black or white. You only had to be different.
ETA: Fuck me, it was rife in the 70s/80s. I was the 'Irish bastard' at school. The irony of it is that I was regularly called the "English bastard" when I moved back to Ireland.
Racism is racism. Just because I wasn't black, doesn't mean I wasn't affected by it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> When my dad moved from Ireland to England in or around 1960, he travelled around the country for a while and lived in digs for the most part. He reckons when he lived in Birmingham, most B&Bs wouldn't accept 'Paddies', and a lot of them had signs in the windows, stating:
> "No Irish, No Blacks, No dogs".
> Racism was rife back then, and it didn't matter if you were black or white. You only had to be different.



Whilst at the same time Saudi will have been rubbing shoulders with their white counterparts. Racism exists but it can’t be removed from class.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

This has fallen deathly silent which is never a good sign. I don’t think any racism towards whites is comparable to that which has existed against non whites in the U.K. I’m an anti-racist and anti-fascist. 
What I’m railing against is the liberal tendency to excuse vile behaviour from PoC as either never racially motivated due to it being impossible, or worse - simply down to victim hood. 
The decent working class people who get along are thankfully in the majority though. But sometimes the liberal left simply forms the polar opposite position to the far right which is equally unhelpful.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

Hey Magnus you lying streicherite cunt. Don’t pretend to give a fuck about ending rape culture.

I don’t know why people are talking about fascism as if it’s a discrete thing that things are either in or out of, or something that has to tick off a list of fixed criteria. Not interested in making friends either, or the ludicrous idea that being nicer to bad things will make them go away. You have correctly diagnosed my poor social skills, in this context I don’t care.

Idk who dialectician is but I’m not a hegelian or trad marxist and the inconsistent capitalisation is a symptom of twitter overuse (ha I knew it you’re thinking)

Black men and boys were and are lynched in the US with sexual violence as a pretext. Buddhist mobs in Burma and Hindu mobs in India use spurious accusations of this for anti-Muslim pogroms. Rapist fascist Trump began his campaign by proclaiming Mexicans rapists and has a fan base full of angry rapists. The rapist and paedo riddled British bourgeoisie never seems to generate much outrage from self declared protectors of “our women”. The list of far rightists who are rapists and paedophiles is too long to name. There’s also Julian Assange, George Galloway, Mark Ames, Matt Taibbi, SWP fronts and other red-brown predators who still have left followings. Sam Kriss waltzed straight from public school to minor white lefty stardom based on vitriol and half baked gothic lacanian maoist bs before his fall -which somehow didn’t surprise most Black women who knew of him and didn’t have Baffler thinkpieces despite being better writers with actual analysis and being involved in actual resistance.

I’m supposed to be afraid of nameless Pakistani men more than the white men whose colonial sexual violence is downplayed or denied even by white feminists? This kind of rhetoric needs to be shut down with force. Ditto antifeminist arguments downplaying the gendered nature of violence and fascism in favour of racial incitement. Self proclaimed leftists use the liberal myth of free speech to deny the performative nature of this rhetoric. At this point it’s enabling,

Hey remember how the canonical anti-idpol text elevates a misogynist millionaire as a working class hero based on idpol (ignorant white reactionary with woman issues? must be working class!) and vilifies his critics (many working class feminist anarchists and communists, many not white) as a subhuman horde of rich liberals who hate the working class? Leading to harassment of these people by leftyboys that continues to this day? In the context of multiple rape scandals on the left? A text beloved by strasserite antifeminist homophobic rape apologist Angela Nagle, who thinks this is what “materialism” means and whose biggest fans include Aaron Bastani and Richard Spencer? Remember Sam Ambreen, who I was unfavourably compared to earlier? I don’t know her or her history but she’s just been banned by twitter after a sustained campaign of abuse and threats by neo-nazis and has finally had to withdraw from online entirely. The white male left isn’t innocent here. The best person on this thread who I haven’t named is afaik not a white man and I don’t think this fact is irrelevant to her perspective and the reaction to it (oh no identity politics!) here.

All white englishmen end up looking like gammon anyway


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

Oh no not the polar opposite of the far right that would be awful.

It’s called antifa, it’s not liberal. Liberalism like yours is pretty friendly to the far right.


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## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

Was Nat Turner racist mags?


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## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara, what are you calling "the canonical anti-idpol text"?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

There’s literally never been a better time for you, ISIS and Tommy Robinson than right now, has there?
All divisionist cunts playing at the same game.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

yep all fascists like you


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> Oh no not the polar opposite of the far right that would be awful



If you simply mirror it then yeah.


----------



## A380 (Oct 30, 2018)

I think this might be enough now.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yep all fascists like you



Drop the sock puppet and bring it on then.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

Athos said:


> lucillemara, what are you calling "the canonical anti-idpol text"?



vampire castle. mark fisher has written some good stuff but this particular piece of shit is odious and reactionary and he knew exactly what he was doing in the climate it was published. it's still used to attack anyone - feminists, postcolonialists, disabled people, queer people and others - who depart from macho left orthodoxy by not reducing all oppression to a dematerialised colonial model of "class" while claiming to oppose identity politics.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

Just reveal yourself or fuck off you fucking piss ant.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

TopCat's examples are all racist. not difficult. there is also unacceptable abuse that isn't racist but has been cited as such in this thread. and far more common is for the mildest criticism of race, empire, britain or nationalism to be labelled racist because a non-white person said it, especially if they're an academic - the british press is far more vicious towards non-white academics who talk about colonialism than literal self described fascists


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What annoys me about the idpol position of only whites can be racist (because colonialism) is it ignores the volume of PoC who have positions of power. The state accommodates that as their version of equality.



have you heard of class dickhead. you were citing it earlier as a reason to ignore racism. the state accommodates anyone who upholds the status quo. do you think obama's presidency debunks the notion that the US is white supremacist? there's only one acceptable answer to that


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> there is also unacceptable abuse that isn't racist but has been cited as such in this thread.


Such as and by whom?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> have you heard of class dickhead. you were citing it earlier as a reason to ignore racism. the state accommodates anyone who upholds the status quo. do you think obama's presidency debunks the notion that the US is white supremacist? there's only one acceptable answer to that



I haven’t argued to ignore racism. I’m arguing that anti-racism often excuses anti-social and criminal behaviour from PoC with claims like its ‘impossible’ for them to be racist or letting bad behaviour slide by excuses of victim hood regardless of their social standing.


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## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

and neither is abuse of people who are sometimes conditionally considered "white" not racist. anti-polish or anti-slavic abuse is racist, more so as poles have become racialised as a scapegoat for britain's dysfunction. british treatment of irish people is racist to this day. the EU and especially Germany's treatment of Greece was racialised. the white ethnics in the US only became "white" (for now) by brutalising other minorities as much as the WASPs did. a dark skinned italian ethnically abusing a light skinned arab is racism. the massacre in pittsburgh was classic fascist racism whether or not the victims are considered "white". don't know what this is supposed to refute.


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## yield (Oct 30, 2018)

Delroy Booth


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

Top trumps idpol then.


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## Spymaster (Oct 30, 2018)

Fucking hell.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> and neither is abuse of people who are sometimes conditionally considered "white" not racist. anti-polish or anti-slavic abuse is racist, more so as poles have become racialised as a scapegoat for britain's dysfunction. british treatment of irish people is racist to this day. the EU and especially Germany's treatment of Greece was racialised. the white ethnics in the US only became "white" (for now) by brutalising other minorities as much as the WASPs did. a dark skinned italian ethnically abusing a light skinned arab is racism. the massacre in pittsburgh was classic fascist racism whether or not the victims are considered "white". don't know what this is supposed to refute.


Do you also answer questions, or do you just rant?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Such as and by whom?



idk any unprovoked violence, there are some accounts earlier in the thread, I believe them but I don't like the context they have been placed in

and who the fuck ever said that only white people can be racist? or that people considered white (why do I have keep reiterating that "races" are not fixed and static but based on literal material conditions, you know like leftists are supposed to care about) are never abused racially? racism is opportunistic and incoherent and people keep asking me to rationalise it for some reason as if it's an abstract logical theory unrelated to the complex and contradictory conditions which bring it about. the fact that imperialism, which actually still exists btw, is treated as irrelevant says it all.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

Having witnessed how deindustrialisation has affected the north of England, I have short shrift with terms like ‘white privelege’ esp coming from Harvard or Goldsmiths.


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## Celyn (Oct 30, 2018)

I think it is all part of some modern-day Pythony thing being prepared for someone's first stand-up comedy gig somewhere. End of term concert?

Interesting in its way.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven’t argued to ignore racism. I’m arguing that anti-racism often excuses anti-social and criminal behaviour from PoC with claims like its ‘impossible’ for them to be racist or letting bad behaviour slide by excuses of victim hood regardless of their social standing.



bill o'reilly had a good bit about this



Magnus McGinty said:


> Having witnessed how deindustrialisation has affected the north of England, I have short shrift with terms like ‘white privelege’ esp coming from Harvard or Goldsmiths.



I don't like that phrase and I've never used it and those places are white supremacist to the core


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## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> whoever they are, is to chose one question and see what the response to that is before moving on.



this is hard to do when people keep (deliberately?) misrepresenting me as saying things like "black people can't be racist" or "fuck class"


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2018)

You don’t use that phrase but it comes from the same position you occupy. Anyway. I need sleep.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> idk any unprovoked violence, there are some accounts earlier in the thread, I believe them but I don't like the context they have been placed in
> 
> and who the fuck ever said that only white people can be racist? or that people considered white (why do I have keep reiterating that "races" are not fixed and static but based on literal material conditions, you know like leftists are supposed to care about) are never abused racially? racism is opportunistic and incoherent and people keep asking me to rationalise it for some reason as if it's an abstract logical theory unrelated to the complex and contradictory conditions which bring it about. the fact that imperialism, which actually still exists btw, is treated as irrelevant says it all.


Ok, this is coherent and I agree with the thrust of it. But I would refute the idea that people are treating imperialism as irrelevant if they  define racism in a simple way, meaning basically something synonymous with 'racial prejudice'. That doesn't say anything at all about the dynamics of race and racism as they exist, and certainly doesn't imply that you think imperialism is irrelevant to the discussion. It's just not directly a part of the definition: ie imperialism has shaped definitions of race and the forms that racism takes, but is not itself an essential part of the definition: a cause of something isn't necessarily identical with the thing it causes. For instance, I don't think racism against Poles and other Eastern Europeans can be put down at its root to imperialism. I think that's a stretch. It's best understood as something really much simpler than that, imo - it's a racist expression of prejudice against immigrants, something that, sadly, we see the world over.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> Oh no not the polar opposite of the far right that would be awful.
> 
> It’s called antifa, it’s not liberal. Liberalism like yours is pretty friendly to the far right.


Do you ever come out doing Antifa stuff? I ask as people on this thread have.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2018)

yield said:


> Delroy Booth


We should pitch this as a TV format, if Lloyd Grossman's still available: _'So, who lives in a house like this?'_


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 30, 2018)

This person doesn't read like dial to me tbh.


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## xenon (Oct 30, 2018)

yield said:


> Delroy Booth


Ha. Maybe.

I've no idea what they're arguing TBH. Or to be precise, with whom. They've got a point amidst the misdirected ranting but no poster here really fits their target profile.


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> this is hard to do when people keep (deliberately?) misrepresenting me as saying things like "black people can't be racist"...



Just to clarify, whilst you disagree with the idea that black people can't be racist _per se_, you do believe that black people can't be racist towards white people?



Athos said:


> What's the central point you're trying to make? It's it that people who are considered white (at a given time and place) cannot be victims of racism, because racism requires more than racial predjudice; to be a victim of racism requires being part of a group that is oppressed on racial grounds because of structural power differentials (regardless of relative individual power dynamics in the specific incident)?





lucillemara said:


> my answer would be yes, that is vaguely what I'm getting at


----------



## keybored (Oct 30, 2018)

They haven't posted some Peruvian armpit-flute dark folk techno links and mocked everyone else for not being into it, so probably not dialectician  tbf


----------



## xenon (Oct 30, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> This person doesn't read like dial to me tbh.



I don't get a lot of his political references, am not well read, but he usually makes sense.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> racism is opportunistic and incoherent


Isn't this the important point here? And structural power differentials operate at many different levels, often at the same time. So you can't produce a full unified general theory of racism in which its definition contains its causes. You shouldn't even try - all you end up doing is producing generalisations that don't work.

And in case that wasn't clear, I do not seek to say that imperialism is irrelevant, far from it. You're not the only one being misunderstood here.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you also answer questions, or do you just rant?



mostly rant but I answer questions if they are in good faith or particularly awful



Magnus McGinty said:


> You don’t use that phrase but it comes from the same position you occupy. Anyway. I need sleep.



oh so now implicature does exist and everything isn't its literal meaning. yeah "race is based on material conditions" is basically the same as "fuck class" I guess



littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok, this is coherent and I agree with the thrust of it. But I would refute the idea that people are treating imperialism as irrelevant if they  define racism in a simple way, meaning basically something synonymous with 'racial prejudice'. That doesn't say anything at all about the dynamics of race and racism as they exist, and certainly doesn't imply that you think imperialism is irrelevant to the discussion. It's just not directly a part of the definition: ie imperialism has shaped definitions of race and the forms that racism takes, but is not itself an essential part of the definition: a cause of something isn't necessarily identical with the thing it causes. For instance, I don't think racism against Poles and other Eastern Europeans can be put down at its root to imperialism. I think that's a stretch. It's best understood as something really much simpler than that, imo - it's a racist expression of prejudice against immigrants, something that, sadly, we see the world over.



imperialism obviously isn't the whole story, although the nazi vilification of slavs (as preparation for setter-colonialism in eastern europe) didn't come from nowhere and isn't entirely unrelated, although it is also in the interest of the media barons to demonise minorities instead of the bourgeoisie, and to promote fascism instead paying slightly higher taxes on their inherited slave labour. I don't think racism as we talk about it is separable from colonialism, capitalism, imperialism, slavery, genocide (Japan, a fascist ethnostate, has many problems with racism particularly against those brutalised by the empire) although it has never been a consistent or coherent concept - the racial categories we think in terms of, similar to those on the census, would not exist without this history and there have been changes in who has been racialised as conditions have changed. Why do white people exist? I have asked this several times. White people obviously didn't exist in ancient greece, although the inferior races were easily identifiable by the fact that they were enslaved by or threatened the dominance of rich cunts like Plato. White people, as a master race, didn't exist before capitalism and the rise of the bourgeoisie (if they'd been black it would have been different obviously) and european colonialism, settler-colonialism in the americas in particular. White people are those not worthy of violence by their very nature (except as traitors or degenerates) this is why there are any white people. This is why the Iraq war is no big deal and supporters are still allowed to exist. Why British people love that evil genocidal turd Churchill. Why Trump won and why white liberals think Hillary is a progressive feminist. Why the white billionaire class has already chosen fascism and genocide as their solution to the human problem.


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> Why do white people exist?



When a (white) man and a (white) woman love each other very much, they have a special cuddle...


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 30, 2018)

xenon said:


> I don't get a lot of his political references, am not well read, but he usually makes sense.



The style and content is quite different.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara What do you aim to achieve by posting here? You seem to be expending a lot of time and energy on people you clearly hold in complete contempt and who you clearly have no desire to persuade. Seems a bit unhealthy to me.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 30, 2018)

yield said:


> Delroy Booth


No chance.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> imperialism obviously isn't the whole story, although the nazi vilification of slavs (as preparation for setter-colonialism in eastern europe) didn't come from nowhere and isn't entirely unrelated, although it is also in the interest of the media barons to demonise minorities instead of the bourgeoisie, and to promote fascism instead paying slightly higher taxes on their inherited slave labour. I don't think racism as we talk about it is separable from colonialism, capitalism, imperialism, slavery, genocide (Japan, a fascist ethnostate, has many problems with racism particularly against those brutalised by the empire) although it has never been a consistent or coherent concept - the racial categories we think in terms of, similar to those on the census, would not exist without this history and there have been changes in who has been racialised as conditions have changed. Why do white people exist? I have asked this several times. White people obviously didn't exist in ancient greece, although the inferior races were easily identifiable by the fact that they were enslaved by or threatened the dominance of rich cunts like Plato. White people, as a master race, didn't exist before capitalism and the rise of the bourgeoisie (if they'd been black it would have been different obviously) and european colonialism, settler-colonialism in the americas in particular. White people are those not worthy of violence by their very nature (except as traitors or degenerates) this is why there are any white people. This is why the Iraq war is no big deal and supporters are still allowed to exist. Why British people love that evil genocidal turd Churchill. Why Trump won and why white liberals think Hillary is a progressive feminist. Why the white billionaire class has already chosen fascism and genocide as their solution to the human problem.


You're talking proximate and distal causes, essentially, and I go a distance with you on that. Sometimes the proximate cause is the powerful driver, though. So prejudice against immigrants occurs the world over, as I say, normally because the immigrant is from a poorer country - Haitians in the Dominican Republic, or North Koreans in South Korea. 

I think your take on ancient history is somewhat too rosy, though. You're right to see the roots of racism as we see it today in colonialism, but the 'othering' of the out group is something with as long a history as the history of humans. And the treating of a subjugated group as sub-human likewise. Spartans killing helots for sport, for example.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

xenon said:


> Ha. Maybe.
> 
> I've no idea what they're arguing TBH. Or to be precise, with whom. They've got a point amidst the misdirected ranting but no poster here really fits their target profile.



perhaps I am not someone people know from years ago, it may be a stretch but
and sometimes I am just arguing against tendencies and implications, I don't think this is dishonest in the context mentions of Muslim rapists to "debunk" white supremacy (and patriarchy by the by -is maggot an MRA?)



Athos said:


> Just to clarify, whilst you disagree with the idea that black people can't be racist _per se_, you do believe that black people can't be racist towards white people?



black people calling white people honky isn't racist, it may be rude or abusive depending on context. targeting specific white ethnic groups (not "white people") can be racist although context matters (a black person saying "mick" to irish americans engaging in a pogrom isn't racist. saying the same thing to an irish person over whom they have violent institutional power would be)

btw I know my account of racism, whiteness, colonialism etc is reductionist, incomplete, not universal in time and place, and so on - but I think it's better than "racism is when people are mean to people from a different background" the kind of shit that gets gammons frothing about the anti-white agenda of Diane Abbott, the kind of identity politics decried when done by minorities. it's also class based and doesn't reduce class to another "axis of oppression" or whatever, so I am only ignoring class if working class identity is more important than socioeconomic positionality (owen smith is working class because he makes dick jokes and doesn't like fancy coffee, who cares who he robs to make a living? people calling me a misogynist are bourgeois because the only feminists I know write for the guardian and new statesman)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> perhaps I am not someone people know from years ago, it may be a stretch but
> and sometimes I am just arguing against tendencies and implications, I don't think this is dishonest in the context mentions of Muslim rapists to "debunk" white supremacy (and patriarchy by the by -is maggot an MRA?)
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Ignoring your self-conscious attempts to be 'edgy', is the racial account of history of the Nation of Islam (which identifies and targets a generalised 'white' ethnic group) racist?


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> black people calling white people honky isn't racist, it may be rude or abusive depending on context. targeting specific white ethnic groups (not "white people") can be racist although context matters (a black person saying "mick" to irish americans engaging in a pogrom isn't racist. saying the same thing to an irish person over whom they have violent institutional power would be)



I'm glad that you appear to be adding some nuance to to your earlier position.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 30, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> lucillemara What do you aim to achieve by posting here? You seem to be expending a lot of time and energy on people you clearly hold in complete contempt and who you clearly have no desire to persuade. Seems a bit unhealthy to me.



I'm banned from twitter (so the truth comes out) and since I can't yell at nazis (who got me banned by mass reporting) and #FBPE cunts (hey jeremy who cares about yemen what about brexit?) I can yell at the parts of the left i think are shit, although I don't think there are many tankies or dengists here unfortunately- and I thought my posts would not be as controversial as they seem to be although I didn't expect universal agreement. now I'm just killing time because I can't sleep and I do actually care about this shit despite being far from the best messenger 
I also had a fairly positive opinion of this place for some reason, based on lurking a bit in the mid 00s when I was even greener


----------



## lizzieloo (Oct 30, 2018)

keybored said:


> I'm dreading the day I get unfairly called a "gammon", being white, male and in my 40s. I'm also losing hair but can't exactly help male pattern baldness. And yes, my face is often red. Burning all these crosses produces a lot of heat.



My husband is white, bald, not fat but we have an unplanned staffy and a van. 

Doomed.


----------



## Athos (Oct 30, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm banned from twitter (so the truth comes out) and since I can't yell at nazis (who got me banned by mass reporting) and #FBPE cunts (hey jeremy who cares about yemen what about brexit?) I can yell at the parts of the left i think are shit, although I don't think there are many tankies or dengists here unfortunately- and I thought my posts would not be as controversial as they seem to be although I didn't expect universal agreement. now I'm just killing time because I can't sleep and I do actually care about this shit despite being far from the best messenger
> I also had a fairly positive opinion of this place for some reason, based on lurking a bit in the mid 00s when I was even greener



I don't think your posts are particularly controversial (despite your efforts to be edgy); they're just misconceived and poorly expressed.  It's a shame you were banned from twitter, as I think you'd do better there.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Isn't this the important point here? And structural power differentials operate at many different levels, often at the same time. So you can't produce a full unified general theory of racism in which its definition contains its causes. You shouldn't even try - all you end up doing is producing generalisations that don't work.
> 
> And in case that wasn't clear, I do not seek to say that imperialism is irrelevant, far from it. You're not the only one being misunderstood here.



My GUF is wrong in a literal sense and mine is simplistic and based on secondhand ideas and half-digested theory and a eurocentric bias. I never intended to formulate it as definitive but the Rotherham shit (which I am right about) probably made me more confident than I should be. I'm sure there are better ways of formulating a definition of modern racism which isn't monocausal. But does this criticism apply to all definitions, models, taxonomies, etc or only poorly formulated ones? Is there a more appropriate way of talking about racism that doesn't flatten power differentials- if they are impossible to capture in the abstract should we not try at all? (if the answer is I personally shouldn't try until I know more fine, but I'll still yell at white lives matter or save our girls type shit)

I do generalise a lot and I probably don't make it clear enough who or what I am responding to which hasn't helped my case 



littlebabyjesus said:


> You're talking proximate and distal causes, essentially, and I go a distance with you on that. Sometimes the proximate cause is the powerful driver, though. So prejudice against immigrants occurs the world over, as I say, normally because the immigrant is from a poorer country - Haitians in the Dominican Republic, or North Koreans in South Korea.
> 
> I think your take on ancient history is somewhat too rosy, though. You're right to see the roots of racism as we see it today in colonialism, but the 'othering' of the out group is something with as long a history as the history of humans. And the treating of a subjugated group as sub-human likewise. Spartans killing helots for sport, for example.



this is and the above are the best criticism I've had here - any line you draw will have to be arbitrary (and obviously othering like this is still bad whether or not we call it racism) and there are grey zones which I have no idea how to approach. I think colonialism is a good distal cause which makes sense of a lot of things but it is not the only one as I may have implied, and definitely I am ignorant about racism and ethnicity in most parts of the world and here too



littlebabyjesus said:


> Hmmm. Ignoring your self-conscious attempts to be 'edgy', is the racial account of history of the Nation of Islam (which identifies and targets a generalised 'white' ethnic group) racist?



yes it's racist, it essentialises race and demonises Jews, it is "racist" against white people in the colloquial sense but I don't think that's much of an issue unless there's stuff I don't know about (it is racist against black people though)


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> I don't think your posts are particularly controversial (despite your efforts to be edgy); they're just misconceived and poorly expressed.  It's a shame you were banned from twitter, as I think you'd do better there.



I did


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> mostly rant but I answer questions if they are in good faith or particularly awful
> oh so now implicature does exist and everything isn't its literal meaning. yeah "race is based on material conditions" is basically the same as "fuck class" I guess
> imperialism obviously isn't the whole story, although the nazi vilification of slavs (as preparation for setter-colonialism in eastern europe) didn't come from nowhere and isn't entirely unrelated, although it is also in the interest of the media barons to demonise minorities instead of the bourgeoisie, and to promote fascism instead paying slightly higher taxes on their inherited slave labour. I don't think racism as we talk about it is separable from colonialism, capitalism, imperialism, slavery, genocide (Japan, a fascist ethnostate, has many problems with racism particularly against those brutalised by the empire) although it has never been a consistent or coherent concept - the racial categories we think in terms of, similar to those on the census, would not exist without this history and there have been changes in who has been racialised as conditions have changed. Why do white people exist? I have asked this several times. White people obviously didn't exist in ancient greece, although the inferior races were easily identifiable by the fact that they were enslaved by or threatened the dominance of rich cunts like Plato. White people, as a master race, didn't exist before capitalism and the rise of the bourgeoisie (if they'd been black it would have been different obviously) and european colonialism, settler-colonialism in the americas in particular. White people are those not worthy of violence by their very nature (except as traitors or degenerates) this is why there are any white people. This is why the Iraq war is no big deal and supporters are still allowed to exist. Why British people love that evil genocidal turd Churchill. Why Trump won and why white liberals think Hillary is a progressive feminist. Why the white billionaire class has already chosen fascism and genocide as their solution to the human problem.



You ask why white people exist.
White people exist because of 2 mutations... their skin became white on moving from hotter parts of the world to live in colder parts of the world.
Basically, humans travelled in nomadic groups all over the world before greed and borders. ..and as they settled in colder climates their genetic make up changed....and indeed their originally lactose intolerant genes changed too to make them tolerant so they could drink milk.
A total of 5 genetic mutations happened. But only one had to do with skin lightning.
The likely explanation for the pigmentation genes is to maximize vitamin D synthesis. People living in northern latitudes often don’t get enough UV to synthesize vitamin D in their skin so natural selection has favored two genetic solutions to that problem—evolving pale skin that absorbs UV more efficiently or favoring lactose tolerance to be able to digest the sugars and vitamin D naturally found in milk.

So....Geography.
It's always neglected when people talk about history etc but it is the reason for a lot of historical change.
Genetic mutation occurs to accommodate living in a particular geographical location. .
More recently geography became about "man made borders"....the problem with borders is that people cant move freely anymore.
And humans, being driven by greed tend toward invasions. Empires are built because of borders and greed...regardless of skin colour. (Not all empires are white historically or geographically) Humans throughout history, of all coloured skin, tend towards being greedy and power hungry. They want the greener grass...the better water...the gold and raw materials...they invade and grab and take what they can.

As of today, there are 49 dictatorships in the world (19 in Sub-Saharan Africa, 12 in the Middle East and North Africa, 8 in Asia-Pacific, 7 in Eurasia 2 in Americas and 1 in Europe).
Possibly one in the US too.
Greed and power corrupt and enslave those who are powerless regardless of skin pigmentation.

Your point about class is probably right. I look at it as more about power, money and greed...because humans can move through class systems to an extent when they garner wealth and with wealth comes power.

If humans had remained as nomads with free movement throughout a borderless world... think how different things would be now?


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)




----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> You ask why white people exist.
> White people exist because of 2 mutations... their skin became white on moving from hotter parts of the world to live in colder parts of the world.
> Basically, humans travelled in nomadic groups all over the world before greed and borders. ..and as they settled in colder climates their genetic make up changed....and indeed their originally lactose intolerant genes changed too to make them tolerant so they could drink milk.
> A total of 5 genetic mutations happened. But only one had to do with skin lightning.
> ...



I think you're missing their point, unless you think there's been a change of geography or a genetic mutation very recently which allowed the Irish to move from being non- white to white.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> I think you're missing their point, unless you think there's been a change of geography or a genetic mutation very recently which allowed the Irish to move from being non- white to white.



Coincidentally...
There has been a geographic change in Ireland in the past 100 years and it sure has effected change for the better for Irish people. No longer slaves and no longer treated like shite by a powerful greedy empire..


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Coincidentally...
> There has been a geographic change in Ireland in the past 100 years and it sure has effected change for the better for Irish people. No longer slaves and no longer treated like shite by a powerful greedy empire..



And that's what made them white?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I'm banned from twitter (so the truth comes out) and since I can't yell at nazis (who got me banned by mass reporting) and #FBPE cunts (hey jeremy who cares about yemen what about brexit?) I can yell at the parts of the left i think are shit, although I don't think there are many tankies or dengists here unfortunately- and I thought my posts would not be as controversial as they seem to be although I didn't expect universal agreement. now I'm just killing time because I can't sleep and I do actually care about this shit despite being far from the best messenger
> I also had a fairly positive opinion of this place for some reason, based on lurking a bit in the mid 00s when I was even greener


Hate to point it out, but it's not so much the content of your posts as your attitude that's pissing people off. Your posts are full of uncontroversial shit everyone already knows only couched in wannabe academic wankspeak. Sure, you throw in the odd bit of trendy bollocks to keep us on our toes but the most notable thing about you is the banality of your posts, they're not edgy and controversial as you clearly want to believe.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> And that's what made them white?



Did I say that? 
Hmm


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> I don't think your posts are particularly controversial (despite your efforts to be edgy); they're just misconceived and poorly expressed.  It's a shame you were banned from twitter, as I think you'd do better there.



Ouch 

Wish I'd seen this before I made my post, now I look like I copied the idea


----------



## likesfish (Oct 31, 2018)

lizzieloo said:


> My husband is white, bald, not fat but we have an unplanned staffy and a van.
> 
> Doomed.


 Your obviously not feeding him enough  eat more ginisters*

Offical snack of gammon and taste tested on iraqi mongeese


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Did I say that?
> Hmm



Did I say you said that?   I was asking the question.  Because the example of the Irish recently becoming white doesn't really for with your idea of whiteness being genetics and geography (which sounds a bit too blood and soil for me).  Race comes from racism, not the other way around.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Fools seldom differ!


----------



## Poi E (Oct 31, 2018)

Enjoying these new contributions.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> Did I say you said that?   I was asking the question.  Because the example of the Irish recently becoming white doesn't really for with your idea of whiteness being genetics and geography (which sounds a bit too blood and soil for me).  Race comes from racism, not the other way around.



 I pointed out that humans moved freely around the world for thousands of years...that power and greed changed a nomadic way to a land grabbing border declaring world which in turn led to invasions...driven by greed...and a desire for power and wealth and control.

My basic point is that REGARDLESS of skin colour power and greed lead to enslavement.
The Irish were treated as slaves to an empire run on power and greed. Viewed as inferior and worthy of ridicule and hate...and pretty much left to starve and die less than 150 yrs ago. My grandmother retold stories that were accounts of her own mother's siblings dying from starvation. 
The Irish skin colour had fuck all to do with the way they were treated. They were expendible slaves used to feed an empire that was based on power and greed. They were viewed as an inferior and uneducated race by that power. They were left to die so that the tiny parcels of land they occupied / rented would be freed up.
Racism and enslavement of all kinds is caused by power and greed.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> I pointed out that humans moved freely around the world for thousands of years...that power and greed changed a nomadic way to a land grabbing border declaring world which in turn led to invasions...driven by greed...and a desire for power and wealth and control.
> 
> My basic point is that REGARDLESS of skin colour power and greed lead to enslavement.
> The Irish were treated as slaves to an empire run on power and greed. Viewed as inferior and worthy of ridicule and hate.
> Racism is caused by power and greed.



I'm not sure about the historical accuracy of an era of global travel in a borderless world. 

But, regardless of that, if your point is that material interests are the cause of oppression, of which racism (which, in turn, creates race) is one example, then I don't think we're disagreeing about much.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> The Irish skin colour had fuck all to do with the way they were treated.



Exactly. The reason they weren't considered white wasn't the colour of their skin.  Which is why I took issue with your post about whiteness being genetic.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Coincidentally...
> There has been a geographic change in Ireland in the past 100 years and it sure has effected change for the better for Irish people. No longer slaves and no longer treated like shite by a powerful greedy empire..


just by greedy powerful corporations


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Hate to point it out, but it's not so much the content of your posts as your attitude that's pissing people off. Your posts are full of uncontroversial shit everyone already knows only couched in wannabe academic wankspeak. Sure, you throw in the odd bit of trendy bollocks to keep us on our toes but the most notable thing about you is the banality of your posts, they're not edgy and controversial as you clearly want to believe.


Precisely this. Right from your arrival, lucillemara , people were telling you you were arguing with positions nobody here holds. For you to keep on spewing out reams and reams* of the same is wearing, and that’s why people aren’t spreading palm fronds in your path. 



(*Note: even our references are to old technology. So if you’ve got new stuff you’ve found, we’d probably be interested in hearing it as long as you don’t call us Nazis).


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> Is there a more appropriate way of talking about racism that doesn't flatten power differentials-


Have you read Racecraft by the Fields sisters? It’s a book and approach that’s appreciated by many here. Have a look at it if you don’t already know it.

https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-cont...t-the-soul-of-inequality-in-american-life.pdf


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> Exactly. The reason they weren't considered white wasn't the colour of their skin.  Which is why I took issue with your post about whiteness being genetic.



Yes, let’s not conflate biological descriptions with what we are talking about here.

It’s a vast oversimplification to put light skin down to 2 mutations in any case.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> Exactly. The reason they weren't considered white wasn't the colour of their skin.  Which is why I took issue with your post about whiteness being genetic.



The Irish were considered as inferior regardless of the fact that their oppressors knew what colour their skin was. Their whiteness was irrelevant. Power and greed were the reason for their subjugation.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

8ball said:


> It’s a vast oversimplification to put light skin down to 2 mutations in any case.



Why don't you check that out for yourself....before you trash it.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> just by greedy powerful corporations



Yeah..ok.. 
And feckin greedy banks.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Why don't you check that out for yourself....before you trash it.



Ask yourself why there are so many shades of human skin varying clinally over a vast area if there are just two gene loci involved.

There are a smallish number of major genetic contributors and a much larget number of influencing factors.  The total isn’t known but higher estimates are well into the hundreds.

I think you might have read about a distinguishing polymorphism of frequent incidence in white Europeans and oversimplified, or just read something unreliable.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

8ball said:


> Ask yourself why there are so many shades of human skin varying clinally over a vast area if there are just two gene loci involved.
> 
> There are a smallish number of major genetic contributors and a much larget number of influencing factors.  The total isn’t known but higher estimates are well into the hundreds.
> 
> I think you might have read about a distinguishing polymorphism of frequent incidence in white Europeans and oversimplified, or just read something unreliable.



I wasn't excluding other genetic adaptation....just explaining one particular mutation.
But you are right...
Variances in pigmentation beyond the ones I mentioned are also caused by genetic mutations.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/new-gene-variants-reveal-evolution-human-skin-color


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Hate to point it out, but it's not so much the content of your posts as your attitude that's pissing people off. Your posts are full of uncontroversial shit everyone already knows only couched in wannabe academic wankspeak. Sure, you throw in the odd bit of trendy bollocks to keep us on our toes but the most notable thing about you is the banality of your posts, they're not edgy and controversial as you clearly want to believe.



I have said repeatedly I know I'm not saying anything new but people immediately took issue with the content of my posts - this was probably because of the tone, but the actual content was disputed even if most people would have agreed with it in a different framing. What I took issue with - and why I have been confrontational - is the fascist grooming stuff - and it is fascist, and dangerous, and I was pissed off by the relatively muted response to it; it was criticised but with less vitriol than others were- mostly but not in every instance deservedly in my case, not at all for others. (I haven't called anyone who didn't say that shit fascist)

the weird geographic determinism stuff or whatever can be dealt with by you lot


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I have said repeatedly I know I'm not saying anything new but people immediately took issue with the content of my posts - this was probably because of the tone, but the actual content was disputed even if most people would have agreed with it in a different framing. What I took issue with - and why I have been confrontational - is the fascist grooming stuff - and it is fascist, and dangerous, and I was pissed off by the relatively muted response to it; it was criticised but with less vitriol than others were- mostly but not in every instance deservedly in my case, not at all for others. (I haven't called anyone who didn't say that shit fascist)
> 
> the weird geographic determinism stuff or whatever can be dealt with by you lot


This is what happens when you rub people up the wrong way. Sort out your attitude or you're just going to alienate everyone, even those sympathetic to your viewpoint.

You look like an ignorant child with a critical studies thesaurus from where I'm standing.

You're also an absolute gift to the alt right. You fit their stereotype of detached from reality lefty snowflake to a tee.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> I have said repeatedly I know I'm not saying anything new but people immediately took issue with the content of my posts - this was probably because of the tone


the ennui-inducing tone


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> the weird geographic determinism stuff or whatever can be dealt with by you lot



Geographical Determinism? 
That's a very different kettle of fish ...


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> I wasn't excluding other genetic adaptation....just explaining one particular mutation.
> Variances in pigmentation beyond the ones I mentioned are also caused by genetic mutations.
> 
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10/new-gene-variants-reveal-evolution-human-skin-color



That’s a long way from your original statement on the matter, I think.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

8ball said:


> That’s a long way from your original statement on the matter, I think.



Yeah...true.. but in my defence I was trying to reply to the question posed by lucillemara ..."why do white people exist"..
And I probably should have included all variants but went for the extremes on the spectrum of whiteness.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> the ennui-inducing tone



yeah welcome to the 21st century


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yeah welcome to the 21st century


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> Have you read Racecraft by the Fields sisters? It’s a book and approach that’s appreciated by many here. Have a look at it if you don’t already know it.
> 
> https://thecharnelhouse.org/wp-cont...t-the-soul-of-inequality-in-american-life.pdf



Cheers Danny, on paternity leave and I've been looking for something to read between nappy changes, looks just the ticket


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> What I took issue with - and why I have been confrontational - is the fascist grooming stuff - and it is fascist, and dangerous, and I was pissed off by the relatively muted response to it;



So you agree with the DFLA that it’s anti-fascists who are the fascists.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> If humans had remained as nomads with free movement throughout a borderless world... think how different things would be now?


Well there would be far fewer of us, for one thing, and we wouldn't be communicating by computer. This seems a romanticisation of the past, though. Hunter-gatherer societies were constantly in conflict with one another, jealously guarding valuable territories, etc. It's hard to see exactly how things were then, but a glimpse of the ethnographies of the Papua New Guinea Highlands suggests a very different picture from this - if you lived there, you needed to be very careful indeed where you wandered. I don't like citing Steven Pinker because I think he is often full of shit, but he's right when he points out that there has never been less violence in society than now. tbh there's probably also never been a more universal recognition of the humanhood of all humans on the planet than now.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> This is what happens when you rub people up the wrong way. Sort out your attitude or you're just going to alienate everyone, even those sympathetic to your viewpoint.
> 
> You look like an ignorant child with a critical studies thesaurus from where I'm standing.
> 
> You're also an absolute gift to the alt right. You fit their stereotype of detached from reality lefty snowflake to a tee.



yeah and this is also why I'm not bothering with niceties. I'm not going to sort my attitude out, I'm fine with people i care about. I don't need to win people over, I'm not a leninist or whatever. I don't give a shit what the alt right thinks of me and letting the enemy determine the rules of the game is capitulation. I have received fair criticism but I don't moderate my tone, I'm not trying to ingratiate myself. in conclusion fuck the gammon left


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Well there would be far fewer of us, for one thing, and we wouldn't be communicating by computer. This seems a romanticisation of the past, though. Hunter-gatherer societies were constantly in conflict with one another, jealously guarding valuable territories, etc. It's hard to see exactly how things were then, but a glimpse of the ethnographies of the Papua New Guinea Highlands suggests a very different picture from this - if you lived there, you needed to be very careful indeed where you wandered. I don't like citing Steven Pinker because I think he is often full of shit, but he's right when he points out that there has never been less violence in society than now. tbh there's probably also never been a more universal recognition of the humanhood of all humans on the planet than now.



Fair points..


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> You're also an absolute gift to the alt right. You fit their stereotype of detached from reality lefty snowflake to a tee.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yeah and this is also why I'm not bothering with niceties. I'm not going to sort my attitude out, I'm fine with people i care about. I don't need to win people over, I'm not a leninist or whatever. I don't give a shit what the alt right thinks of me and letting the enemy determine the rules of the game is capitulation. I have received fair criticism but I don't moderate my tone, I'm not trying to ingratiate myself. in conclusion fuck the gammon left


i don't care about you sorting your attitude out, but you might want to sort your politics out.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So you agree with the DFLA that it’s anti-fascists who are the fascists.



ah,I said fascist shit and you didn't like it, but guess what I'm actually an antifascist! now who's got egg on their face
fuck off


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't care about you sorting your attitude out, but you might want to sort your politics out.


What politics? This stuff is entirely juvenile apoliticism at it's finest. It's almost as bad as the point missing scientism we've recently seen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ah,I said fascist shit and you didn't like it, but guess what I'm actually an antifascist! now who's got egg on their face
> fuck off


better to have egg on your face than shit for brains.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Cheers Danny, on paternity leave and I've been looking for something to read between nappy changes, looks just the ticket


Congratulations!

Good to see you around again, by the way.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> What politics? This stuff is entirely juvenile apoliticism at it's finest. It's almost as bad as the point missing scientism we've recently seen.



I got the point. I just chose to move it away from politics. 
My bad I guess.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> ah,I said fascist shit and you didn't like it, but guess what I'm actually an antifascist! now who's got egg on their face
> fuck off



Grow up you daft twat.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't care about you sorting your attitude out, but you might want to sort your politics out.



i don't know what the pickmans official line is but if it's some reheated old marxist revival or anarcho-hyphenism or any formalised system I'm not interested


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Grow up you daft twat.



muslim grooming gangs. eat shit



butchersapron said:


> What politics? This stuff is entirely juvenile apoliticism at it's finest. It's almost as bad as the point missing scientism we've recently seen.



do you want to call me infantile


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Sam Ambreen?


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

no she's retired because nazis sent her death threats keep up
hey why is so much of the british left white and male dominated it's a mystery


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

Oh god.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Fair points..


As a point of interest, this was in New Scientist recently. After the invention of agriculture, but long before modern nation states and the idea of national borders.

Every man in Spain was wiped out 4500 years ago by hostile invaders



> But that’s not the complete story. The team found a dramatic shift in the Y-chromosomes, which are only carried by males. “There’s a complete Y-chromosome replacement,” Reich said. The original males’ DNA vanished from the gene pool. “That means males coming in had preferential access to local females, again and again and again,” Reich said.
> 
> This looks like a violent conquest, in which an invading army killed or enslaved the local males and took the local females for their own. “The collision of these two populations was not a friendly one, not an equal one, but one where the males from outside were displacing local males and did so almost completely,” Reich said.



So post-hunter-gatherers (and patriarchy already in full force), but 4,500 years ago.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> hey why is so much of the british left white and male dominated it's a mystery


this isn't even factually correct. Parts of it are, other parts are not. Another example of why daft generalisations are not helping.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> i don't know what the pickmans official line is but if it's some reheated old marxist revival or anarcho-hyphenism or any formalised system I'm not interested


It involves engaging brain to I doubt you're up to it


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

logic and reason can fuck off


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no she's retired because nazis sent her death threats keep up
> hey why is so much of the british left white and male dominated it's a mystery



I thought she was suspended from twitter after a beef with gnasher Jew


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> logic and reason can fuck off



Ok now I’m back to thinking it’s dialectician


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> no she's retired because nazis sent her death threats keep up
> hey why is so much of the british left white and male dominated it's a mystery



Same reason as business, politics and power more generally are dominated by white males. 

You're not really telling anyone anything with these posts. Say something.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> hey why is so much of the british left white and male dominated it's a mystery



Because of liberals treating PoC as generic blocks rather than having class structures?


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> logic and reason can fuck off


Quoted for posterity.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> this isn't even factually correct. Parts of it are, other parts are not. Another example of why daft generalisations are not helping.



so you agree that much of it is, and I included a qualifier but why do I want to help and for what purpose
this is kind of why I think the difference is more ideological than claimed


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As a point of interest, this was in New Scientist recently. After the invention of agriculture, but long before modern nation states and the idea of national borders.
> 
> Every man in Spain was wiped out 4500 years ago by hostile invaders
> 
> ...



Thanks for quoting the article as I couldn't read beyond the first part of the link...not subscribed...

Very interesting though.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> The Irish were considered as inferior regardless of the fact that their oppressors knew what colour their skin was. Their whiteness was irrelevant. Power and greed were the reason for their subjugation.



Their oppressors didn't see them as white!


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because of liberals treating PoC as generic blocks rather than having class structures?



generic blocks of rapists?


----------



## andysays (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Cheers Danny, on paternity leave and I've been looking for something to read between nappy changes, looks just the ticket


Congrats


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Same reason as business, politics and power more generally are dominated by white males.
> 
> You're not really telling anyone anything with these posts. Say something.



it should be better


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Thanks for quoting the article as I couldn't read beyond the first part of the link...not subscribed...
> 
> Very interesting though.


Sorry, here' the whole thing:
A genetic analysis has revealed that, about 4500 years ago, part of southern Europe was conquered from the east. In what is now Spain and Portugal, the local male line vanished almost overnight, and males from outside became the only ones to leave descendants.

David Reich of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts presented the results on Saturday at New Scientist Live in London, UK.

Reich and his colleagues have spent the last few years reading the DNA of people who lived in Europe and Asia several thousand years ago, to track past migrations.


Archaeology had already revealed that modern humans first entered Europe about 45,000 years ago – at which point the Neanderthals that had been living there for tens of thousands of years vanished. The first modern humans in Europe were hunter-gatherers.

About 9000 years ago a second wave of modern humans arrived from the region around modern Israel and Jordan. These were farmers and at first they lived alongside the hunter-gatherers, with the two cultures remaining separate. Hunter-gatherers could simply move to a new area if a disagreement with a neighbouring group arose. But because the farmers settled down in specific places and invested time and effort in the land, disputes could escalate. By 7000 years ago there is evidence of massacres.

Then beginning around 5000 years ago another group of people entered Europe. It’s this group that Reich’s team focused on.

*Steppe out*
The new population arose “in far eastern Europe on the steppes north of the Black and Caspian Seas,” Reich said. Archaeologists call them the Yamnaya. They were pastoralists who relied on grazing animals rather than growing crops.

“The wheel had shortly before been invented and the horse domesticated,” Reich said. The Yamnaya hitched horses to wagons and used them to carry supplies out into the open steppe, allowing them to tend large grazing herds and exploit the steppe better than anyone before.

Before the Yamnaya arose, a host of different cultures existed on the steppe, each of which left behind distinctive artefacts. Most of these groups then disappeared and were replaced by a homogenous Yamnaya culture.

“These people spread over a vast territory from Mongolia to Hungary and into Europe, and are the single primary most important contributors to Europeans today,” Reich said. Only after the Yamnaya arrived do the ancient genomes start to resemble those of modern Europeans. Reich also suggested that the Indo-European languages – a vast group including most modern European languages – was first brought into Europe by the Yamnaya.

Around the same time, people in the vicinity of Spain began making distinctive beakers. These seem to be associated with a set of religious beliefs, known as the Bell Beaker Culture. It first spread by word of mouth, until the incoming Yamnaya adopted it – at which point it became a marker of their expansion.

*Replacement*
In February, Reich’s team showed what happened when the Yamnaya’s descendants arrived in Britain 4500 years ago. Within a few hundred years, about 90 per cent of the local gene pool was replaced. The people who made Stonehenge were seemingly wiped out, and few of their genes have survived to the present day. The previous style of artefacts was replaced by Bell Beaker Culture. It’s not clear what happened, but the newcomers may have carried unfamiliar diseases that wiped out the locals. The climate was shifting at the time, which might have added to the problems the locals experienced.

Now the team has examined what happened on the Iberian peninsula. The Yamnaya’s descendants began mixing with the locals from 4500 years ago. The resulting population had 40 per cent Yamnaya ancestry and 60 per cent local ancestry. So unlike Britain, many of the original farmers managed to pass on their genes.

But that’s not the complete story. The team found a dramatic shift in the Y-chromosomes, which are only carried by males. “There’s a complete Y-chromosome replacement,” Reich said. The original males’ DNA vanished from the gene pool. “That means males coming in had preferential access to local females, again and again and again,” Reich said.

This looks like a violent conquest, in which an invading army killed or enslaved the local males and took the local females for their own. “The collision of these two populations was not a friendly one, not an equal one, but one where the males from outside were displacing local males and did so almost completely,” Reich said.

This could only have happened if society had come firmly under the control of the males, with females being treated as second-class citizens or even property – unlike the more egalitarian hunter-gatherer societies that had long since disappeared.

The new findings are in line with results reported in July 2017 by Rui Martiniano, now at the University of Cambridge, and his colleagues, based on the genomes of 14 ancient people. They also found that the local Y-chromosomes were rapidly replaced in Iberia, suggesting a male-dominated incursion.


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

edit never mind


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> logic and reason can fuck off



I have a new theory of who the sock puppeteer is:


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> generic blocks of rapists?



Nobody has argued that position.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> Their oppressors didn't see them as white!



Skin colour was not relevant to their campaign of subjugation.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it should be better


It is generally. Still a problem but not as big a problem as it is in the other areas I mentioned.

And of course top down liberal identity politics that encourage people to fight for political representation along ethnic and cultural lines don't exactly help. 

We could have an interesting and useful discussion around this, it is a real and serious issue. Your attitude means that while you're here we can't have that conversation.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

andysays said:


> Congrats





danny la rouge said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> Good to see you around again, by the way.



Thanks  never been so knackered in my life but I don't regret it for a second


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

A380 said:


> I have a new theory of who the sock puppeteer is:
> 
> View attachment 151280



he was right you know, except in a specific contextual way which requires empiricism as well as abstract reasoning, so I reiterate

no more for or from me though

christ bunch of teachers over here. sort your attitude out, cut your hair, pull your trousers up. facts are facts.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sorry, here' the whole thing:
> A genetic analysis has revealed that, about 4500 years ago, part of southern Europe was conquered from the east. In what is now Spain and Portugal, the local male line vanished almost overnight, and males from outside became the only ones to leave descendants.
> 
> David Reich of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts presented the results on Saturday at New Scientist Live in London, UK.
> ...




Thanks for this.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> christ bunch of teachers over here. sort your attitude out, cut your hair, pull your trousers up. facts are facts.



Obviously you missed out on this
https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...reme-haircut-and-wrong-uniform-thread.347060/


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> christ bunch of teachers over here. sort your attitude out, cut your hair, pull your trousers up. facts are facts.



Ah, it’s SpookyFrank


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> Cheers Danny, on paternity leave and I've been looking for something to read between nappy changes, looks just the ticket



Congratulations Spiney mate. And welcome back.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> he was right you know, except in a specific contextual way which requires empiricism as well as abstract reasoning, .


I think this is my favourite of all the things you've said.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> anyway fuck white people, kill them all. ban me you cunts.



It's quite impressive when the middle classes reach a level of self-awareness - you can see the common thread across all these:

 



Spoiler: NSFW


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

holger meins rip


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

so we're back to anti-racism is middle class. fun stuff


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

Well that flounce lasted as long as expected.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> he was right you know, except in a specific contextual way which requires empiricism as well as abstract reasoning, so I reiterate
> 
> no more for or from me though
> 
> christ bunch of teachers over here. sort your attitude out, cut your hair, pull your trousers up. facts are facts.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Skin colour was not relevant to their campaign of subjugation.



No but the fact that they weren't white (which is different from skin colour) was.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> it should be better



I am very surprised you say that. So you want more good stuff and less bad stuff?

I think this is the controversial point you have been trying to make all along


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> No but the fact that they weren't white (which is different from skin colour) was.



Sorry. You've lost me.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

seventh bullet said:


> Congratulations Spiney mate. And welcome back.



Thanks


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Sorry. You've lost me.



That whiteness (like non-whiteness) is a category created by racism, not biology.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

There's a book about this I've been meaning to read for ages. How the Irish became white. Not read it but I think it covers the same ground you two are on now.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> There's a book about this I've been meaning to read for ages. How the Irish became white. Not read it but I think it covers the same ground you two are on now.


There's that and Theodore Allen's two vol The invention of the white race - for massive stuff on the latter see here. There is a long two piece summary of the books argument  too.

edit: corrected first link


----------



## lucillemara (Oct 31, 2018)

wow rare find read fanon next


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2018)

Oh yeah, here's the book too.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> That whiteness (like non-whiteness) is a category created by racism, not biology.



 



butchersapron said:


> Oh yeah, here's the book too.



Thanks for this.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> wow rare find read fanon next


Blimey norm, you've stepped on some toes - this is not your knowledge, it's not for _the likes of you.
_
What an elitist little priest we have here.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yeah welcome to the 21st century


Oh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Oh.


it's like getting to trafalgar square and seeing a welcome to london sign up


----------



## likesfish (Oct 31, 2018)

everything is dominated by whites in the UK because outside of London UK is 87% white
Ethnicity and religion statistics |  Institute of Race Relations
indian Asians make up 6% black makeup about 3 % Irish make up a couple of % but have been officially white since the 20th century I think the yanks were the first people to officially class the Irish as white.
  So the idea the POC are ever going to be anything a tiny minority in anything remotely mainstream is


----------



## rekil (Oct 31, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I thought she was suspended from twitter after a beef with gnasher Jew


I'm guessing this has something to do with her claiming that 'the holocaust didn't affect white people' but this gnasher person sounds like a proper cunt. The site mentioned is a cesspit called Kiwi Farms.



I don't know who Ally Fogg is so if it transpires that he too is also a knob don't @ me plz.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> logic and reason can fuck off


Well, you have probably scared them away from your house.

((( logic )))				   ((( reason )))


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Cunts all round


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> it's like getting to trafalgar square and seeing a welcome to london sign up



There’s a Costa in Chesham with a ‘welcome to london’ poster


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Well, you have probably scared them away from your house.
> 
> ((( logic )))				   ((( reason )))


they're in shallow graves at lucillemara's house in gloucester


----------



## TopCat (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> yeah and this is also why I'm not bothering with niceties. I'm not going to sort my attitude out, I'm fine with people i care about. I don't need to win people over, I'm not a leninist or whatever. I don't give a shit what the alt right thinks of me and letting the enemy determine the rules of the game is capitulation. I have received fair criticism but I don't moderate my tone, I'm not trying to ingratiate myself. in conclusion fuck the gammon left


So again I ask do you do any anti fascist activities?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

TopCat said:


> So again I ask do you do any anti fascist activities?


only froths about it online afaics


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

TopCat said:


> So again I ask do you do any anti fascist activities?





Did you mean to include me in that query-?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

TopCat said:


> So again I ask do you do any anti fascist activities?


Seems like a reasonable question lucillemara


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Seems like a reasonable question lucillemara


which is why that poster will not answer it


----------



## kabbes (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> What I took issue with - and why I have been confrontational - is the fascist grooming stuff - and it is fascist, and dangerous, and I was pissed off by the relatively muted response to it; it was criticised but with less vitriol than others were



That’s because we already have a 71-fucking-page thread about that issue.

Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

People are exhausted by it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

which they will refuse to read as they came here for a very specific dragon to slay and goddamit its getting slain wether it exists here or not


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 31, 2018)

Rotherham, anti-fascism, Muslims and Costa Coffee (and that's only on this page!) 

This thread is classic urban straying-off-topic fare.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Well, you have probably scared them away from your house.
> 
> ((( logic )))				   ((( reason )))


Daft Punk are playing at my house, my house,


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

kabbes said:


> That’s because we already have a 71-fucking-page thread about that issue.
> 
> Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims
> 
> People are exhausted by it.


And we’ve also had a long thread before about the term “gammon”, which interests me as much now as it did then. Which is to say that it doesn’t.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> And we’ve also had a long thread before about the term “gammon”, which interests me as much now as it did then. Which is to say that it doesn’t.


This is the thread that has everything. In fact I don't know what to buy it for Christmas.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> This is the thread that has everything. In fact I don't know what to buy it for Christmas.



It has everything. But it also has nothing.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It has everything. But it also has nothing.


So many words, so few ideas.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> So many words, so few ideas.


It's like reading a thread dominated by 'Dr' Jazzz, but with less substance... and more anger... oh, and other things.  A thread full of self education and awareness, but without the education and awareness. 

Julian Cope: _All is lost in bright confusion_


----------



## JimW (Oct 31, 2018)

You say gammon, I say _game on_!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> This is the thread that has everything. In fact I don't know what to buy it for Christmas.


a place in the bin


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Anyway, while Lucillemara is away doing antifascism, we can all take a breather and lark about for a bit.  Just to be going on with, here's a picture of a dog pushing a pram.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> a place in the bin


With Monty Clift and Liz Taylor.


----------



## rekil (Oct 31, 2018)

Name that fillum.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Anyway, while Lucillemara is away doing antifascism, we can all take a breather and lark about for a bit.  Just to be going on with, here's a picture of a dog pushing a pram.


Here is a pic of a baby doing a dr evil impression


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Julian Cope: _All is lost in bright confusion_



Thread shut your mouth


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well that flounce lasted as long as expected.


The ISI have been in touch to use this as a new SI unit, the pico-flounce.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

A380 said:


> The ISI have been in touch to use this as a new SI unit, the pico-flounce.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 31, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> Did you mean to include me in that query-?


No.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 31, 2018)

I was looking at various scars acquired over the years doing anti fascist stuff. Plus the emotional toll on me and family having a crown court trial. 

I am not minded to be cunted off by this irritating keyboard sweary Mary.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Could we have another thread on foods that may or may not be racist?

_Death to the Third Position Courgette_!


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> foods that may or may not be racist



Nazi Goering


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

After 88's


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

Arbeit mach Fries


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

Deutschland Uber Salad


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

kraft salad cream durch freude


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

eel d l


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

Vichyssoise


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

English Defence Leeks.


----------



## JimW (Oct 31, 2018)

Evola-vaunts


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

SSausages.


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

Doenitz Kebab.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Beef steak nazi


----------



## JimW (Oct 31, 2018)

Egnocchi Powell


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

tommy robinson's barley water


----------



## isvicthere? (Oct 31, 2018)

Fash potatoes.

Pie'n'fash.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Oct 31, 2018)

Fash browns


----------



## chilango (Oct 31, 2018)




----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

Klu Klux Flan


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

Special Fried Reich.


----------



## chilango (Oct 31, 2018)

Leek of St George.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

One of the lads I played Sunday league with was (probably still is) fash. We convinced him that Jaggerniester wa what hitler drank in his bunker whilst waiting for the soviets to arrive. Thick cunt believed it and all.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Chow Mein Kampf


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 31, 2018)

Il Ducelatte cheese


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 31, 2018)

You bastards, I am feeling hungry now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

mussosemolina


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Eva Brawn


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

Black Forest Ghetto


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Pol Pot Noodle.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

rocky rhodes flavour ice cream


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

iron guard bru


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Monday Club Sandwich.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

corneliu zelea cod-reanu and chips


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2018)

Spaghetti al Panzer Division 9


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

British Union of Fat Chips.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

Thousand Year Reich Dressing


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 31, 2018)

Nazi Goreng


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> You bastards, I am feeling hungry now.



You could Goebbel up a whole buffet I’m sure


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Malt-Right


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

eatmorecheese said:


> Nazi Goreng


Nazi Goering shirley?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2018)

V2 rocket salad


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

klaus barbie-q chicken


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2018)

Eton Mess-erschmitt


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

League of Samphire Loyalists.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

What cutlery should I put out? Is this the Night of the Fish Knives?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 31, 2018)

Mengele masala


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

Lennon drizzle cake


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

operation kettle chips


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Mubarak Dhubh


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

Gelli and ice cream


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

... and of course good old Steve Gammon.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 31, 2018)

Orange Duce


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Tatties and herrenvolk.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

ezra pound cake


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

BBQ spare Ribbentrops


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

Freeporks


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

fry-korps


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Mosley

Y know, muesli


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

And our very own Jacob Cheese-Mogg.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

The Tea Party.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

British National a la Carty


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Raspberry pavsvoboda

Jesus


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

Gestapo soup, made with tomato concentration, topped with sliced up partisan cheese


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Pat Stew-chanon.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Hesston Blumenthal


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

The D U Pea.

okay, okay, that was piss weak, I'm off to do some... work!


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Steak heil.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 31, 2018)

Jus reduction? 

/also need to work...


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Wilf said:


> The D U Pea.
> 
> okay, okay, that was piss weak, I'm off to do some... work!


I have loads of good ones but it’s... school run time


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Gratin First.

right, I really am off...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)




----------



## hot air baboon (Oct 31, 2018)

littleseb said:


> Doenitz Kebab.



Dunkin' Doenitz


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

treb blinis


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

Eva Braun Sauce.


----------



## Santino (Oct 31, 2018)

Jesus, can we go back to incoherent squabbling please?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

oats twist


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Santino said:


> Jesus, can we go back to incoherent squabbling please?


i don't know what you're doing on urban with an attitude like that.


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

Santino said:


> Jesus, can we go back to incoherent squabbling please?


dunno if that's a good final solution.


----------



## hot air baboon (Oct 31, 2018)

8ball said:


> Eton Mess-erschmitt



Eton Hess


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2018)

Miss is going to kill you all when she gets back.


----------



## Santino (Oct 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Miss is going to kill you all when she gets back.


They'll deserve it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Santino said:


> Jesus, can we go back to incoherent squabbling please?


Is that a New Order?


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

hope she'll let me have my Blondie Brownie desert first.


----------



## JimW (Oct 31, 2018)

Pass law coleslaw


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> After 88's


apart heid's


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Joseph Meatballs.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 31, 2018)

Swasticky toffee pudding


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

spitfire said:


> Swasticky toffee pudding


 Well done. 

Best I could come up with was chicken swastikka.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Well done.
> 
> Best I could come up with was chicken swastikka.


have a pity like


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> have a pity like


I didn't think it worthy of posting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> I didn't think it worthy of posting.


but posted it anyway


----------



## spitfire (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Well done.
> 
> Best I could come up with was chicken swastikka.



I wasn't going to get involved but it was too good to pass up. Will quit while ahead but have a horrible feeling I have been added to a list somewhere. Probably Goldsmiths.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

spitfire said:


> I wasn't going to get involved but it was too good to pass up. Will quit while ahead but have a horrible feeling I have been added to a list somewhere. Probably Goldsmiths.


yeh you'll get a letter offering you an unconditional place on their new internet posting bsc


----------



## spitfire (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh you'll get a letter offering you an unconditional place on their new internet posting bsc



 It'll be better than the one I never finished at Southbank.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Fash!

Y know, smash. 

Oh no the fun is over.


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a 
final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were 
prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a plate of coleslaw would exists between us.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

Zyklon Pea


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

A380 said:


> This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a
> final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were
> prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a plate of coleslaw would exists between us.


I’m laughing because that was such a stretch it’s funny.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 31, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> One of the lads I played Sunday league with was (probably still is) fash. We convinced him that Jaggerniester wa what hitler drank in his bunker whilst waiting for the soviets to arrive. Thick cunt believed it and all.


You're not far off, actually.  It genuinely was the favourite drink of Goering.

Jäger-Bombers: Dark Origins of the Demon Drink


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

A380 said:


> This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a
> final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were
> prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a plate of coleslaw would exists between us.


If that's the standard, I've got thousands!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

A380 said:


> This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a
> final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were
> prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a plate of coleslaw would exists between us.


I have in my hand a piece of rice paper...


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

I’d have gone with “a plate of ‘slaw” and hoped nobody would take me up on it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

We’ll bite them on the peaches...


----------



## spitfire (Oct 31, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> We’ll bite them on the peaches...



fnar.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, “This was Tesco’s Finest flour”.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, “This was Tesco’s Finest flour”.


That bad eh


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Franco & Benny's


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Hot Iron Cross buns


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Luftwaffe thin ham.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

A single spaghetto.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 31, 2018)

Adolf Salad


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I’d have gone with “a plate of ‘slaw” and hoped nobody would take me up on it.


That would have been even better!


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

A380 said:


> That would have been even better!


And it's _still_ fucking awful


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

The Jam Busters


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Silvio Berla-sconey
Battenberg
Swiss Banker Roll
Rich Teef


----------



## cuppa tee (Oct 31, 2018)

Eva Braun cocktail
Asparagus Speers
Avocadolf


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 31, 2018)

Mussolini paella


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

Von Ryans Egg’s n cress

The Cruel Tea

The Big Red Bun

The Longest Tray


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

Beer Hall punch


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Donitz kebab


----------



## Wilf (Oct 31, 2018)

Triumph of the Dill, by Leni Beefenstahl


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

DAFfa cakes

I'll get me coat


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

The long range dessert group.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Mashed gestapotato

(It seems like anything goes now)


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Oct 31, 2018)

Luft Waffles


----------



## spitfire (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Mashed gestapotato
> 
> (It seems like anything goes now)



Ok cool. 

Red Leicester We Forget


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

This is our darkest lunch hour


----------



## TimDracula (Oct 31, 2018)

Gammon, I normally prefer a little rarity higher up the food chain… …, I do like steaks. But I hate stakes!


Aha


Ha


ha


----------



## SpineyNorman (Oct 31, 2018)

KKKabbage


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Erich Koch au vin


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Nazi Goering





eatmorecheese said:


> Nazi Goreng





littlebabyjesus said:


> Nazi Goering shirley?


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Hans Frank-furter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

A380 said:


> Von Ryans Egg’s n cress
> 
> The Cruel Tea
> 
> ...


The greatest cake


----------



## two sheds (Oct 31, 2018)

Thread's taken a positive turn. First time I've understood any of it


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

A fridge too far


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

A bag of chips now


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

lucillemaraschino


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

Beef and Heil Pie

Heilmeal flour


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)

_I have nothing to offer but bread, oil, beers and spaghetti_


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> lucillemaraschino


Cherry oh, here I go, on my way
Wish me luck as you wave me goodbye


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

Pure raced potatoes


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

From beerhall to Eternity


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

spotted dictator


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Schindler's Crisps
The Guns of Provolone


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

The naked and the bread


----------



## pesh (Oct 31, 2018)




----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Reich pudding


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Crust of iron


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

.


Pickman's model said:


> A bag of chips now


‘a box of chips now’ would have worked better.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)

_Ein pork, ein rice, ein tofuhrer_


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

back to the fuhrer


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Jam Busters


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Flora! Flora! Flora!


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

Triumph of the Veal


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Ice cream in Alex


----------



## TopCat (Oct 31, 2018)

Fuck sake (unwatches thread)


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

can't be asked cooking tonight. let's go Franco manca.


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Enemy at the cakes


----------



## TopCat (Oct 31, 2018)

Move the thread to general.


----------



## spitfire (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Flora! Flora! Flora!



The Battle of Squidway


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

bubble and Sieg.


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Rudolf Hess-ton Blunenthal


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)




----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

spitfire said:


> The Battle of Squidway


Letters from Iwo Tuna


----------



## spitfire (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Letters from Iwo Tuna



 Cocoada


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

the african queen of puddings


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Halls of Montetuna


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)

Finally this thread finds its level


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Bridge over the River Kiwi


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 31, 2018)

Bridge Over The River Pie.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Malteser Falcon


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Tarte au petain


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 31, 2018)

inglorious custards


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

Let's not forget the opposed ideology's cuisine:

Engels on horseback

Lenin Sorbet

Maotai

Quails in icepick


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Vichy Ssoise


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

AFA cakes


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2018)

Engels cakes


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

FLAn


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 31, 2018)

This thread has improved massively!


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

Yaxley-Lennonade


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

white pudding


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 31, 2018)

Unmixed herbs


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

littleseb said:


> white pudding


It’s a nice day for a white pudding


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Red pudding


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> This thread has improved massively!



Never in the field of human nonsense,
Have so many made so much, of so little.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Creme Karlmarel


----------



## rekil (Oct 31, 2018)

Terrine Le Pen


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Pickmans lunch



This is because I couldn’t think of any fascists that would work in with Ploughman’s earlier


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)

ten secs on guugle suggests_ Prützmanns Lunch_

HtH


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Eugene Terreblancmange


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

mojo pixy said:


> ten secs on guugle suggests_ Prützmanns Lunch_
> 
> HtH


I’m shit at google! Don’t google on an empty head


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

DotCommunist said:


> inglorious custards


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinsters


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> Magnus McGinsters


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Full English Defence League Breakfast


----------



## Spymaster (Oct 31, 2018)

Sasapotato


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)

Dry roasted pea nazin a small glass dish. On the bar.


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 31, 2018)

No more from me.
oh go on then lucillemara ngue pie


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

Ataturkish Delight.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Spaghetti NazBolognese


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Nah I’m full now


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

Ah sod it. There’s always Rohm for dessert


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2018)

muslamic whey guns


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

Cockles and Mussolinis


----------



## Athos (Oct 31, 2018)

Muslim crepe gangs


----------



## hot air baboon (Oct 31, 2018)

Spud U Boat


----------



## 8ball (Oct 31, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> Sasapotato





Spat a little beer on my keyboard and inhaled the rest.
Stopped coughing now you bastard.


----------



## A380 (Oct 31, 2018)

Athos said:


> Muslim crepe gangs


This may be a winner.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2018)

Aye

/thread


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 31, 2018)

walob


----------



## klang (Oct 31, 2018)

Rommelette.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 31, 2018)

littleseb said:


> Rommelette.



That’s good


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 31, 2018)




----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Das BEERS


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 31, 2018)

Why did we stop the red ones so quick you fascists


----------



## xenon (Nov 1, 2018)

What the fuck is going on here  with the puns now ? 

Ku klux clam chowder


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2018)

War and Pies


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 1, 2018)

We must secure the existence of our peanuts and a future for fried chicken.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2018)

We will fight them on the peaches


----------



## Thaw (Nov 1, 2018)

tarahamasalata


----------



## Thaw (Nov 1, 2018)

Sonderkommansourghdough


----------



## Thaw (Nov 1, 2018)

Schutz-jaffle


----------



## kabbes (Nov 1, 2018)

Will it never fucking end?


----------



## andysays (Nov 1, 2018)

kabbes said:


> Will it never fucking end?


White man's tears (which I believe make a nice salty dressing if you like that sort of thing)


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 1, 2018)

Oswald Muesli


----------



## A380 (Nov 1, 2018)

‘By 1942 all Europe lay crushed beneath the Nazi jack fruit.’


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 1, 2018)




----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

Eagles Nest Soup


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 1, 2018)

Field Mushroom Rommel


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 1, 2018)

Cakie Hopkins


----------



## NoXion (Nov 1, 2018)

Celeriac Rommelade


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

Panzers au chocolat


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 1, 2018)

Coffee in the Lebensraum?


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

John Tyndhal


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 1, 2018)

Eva Prawn.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 1, 2018)

Nazi Hunter's Chicken


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 1, 2018)

Third Reich KKKrispies


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 1, 2018)

"lucillemara was last seen 22 minutes ago"


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 1, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> "lucillemara was last seen 22 minutes ago"



I wonder what they think about the turn of events on this thread.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2018)

Maybe we’ve covered the prejudices of gammon. What I want to know now is are sausages homophobic; is beans on toast sexist; are fishfingers anti-Semitic?


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 1, 2018)

Unpopped corn is blatantly transphobic


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 1, 2018)

Ready Brexit.


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 1, 2018)

En-gnocchi Powell.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

field marshal rommel mallow


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

isvicthere? said:


> En-gnocchi Powell.


done a page or three back


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

Spymaster said:


> "lucillemara was last seen 22 minutes ago"


showing a clean pair of heels no doubt


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 1, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> done a page or three back


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 1, 2018)

Marx mallows

Sausages are blates phallocratic


----------



## Athos (Nov 1, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> ... are fishfingers anti-Semitic?



This mockery is a hake crime!


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 1, 2018)

Pure prejufish.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 1, 2018)

I’m so sick of white mackerelagressions


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 1, 2018)

It violates my safe plaice


----------



## isvicthere? (Nov 1, 2018)

I'm fed up with all this vir-tuna signalling.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 1, 2018)

Stupid White Fish


----------



## Athos (Nov 1, 2018)

Preju-dace.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 1, 2018)

Nick Tiffin


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 1, 2018)

chilango said:


> John Tyndhal



Tyndall mint cake


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 1, 2018)

Steve Banonfee pie

Hangs head in shame


----------



## SpineyNorman (Nov 1, 2018)

Do Islamists count? What about Allahu Snackbar?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 1, 2018)

Urban 

Contender for the 'thread whose raison d'etre goes next door' of the year


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 1, 2018)

Osama bin Lardon


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 1, 2018)

chicken supremacist


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

Anjem Chowdery


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

if the field's more widely open then you might have vinniedaloo jones


----------



## Thaw (Nov 1, 2018)

Spaghetti Hezbollahnese


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

vladibeer putin


----------



## JimW (Nov 1, 2018)

Asian Coprosperity Pears


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

Picnic Griffin


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

chilango said:


> Picnic Griffin


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

If we believe the story told to me back in the early 90s by an erstwhile AFA member of Thora Hird leading a British Movement march. (I don't believe it for a second, but...) Then I give you....

Hird in a Hird in a Hird.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2018)

Adolf-friendly tuna


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2018)

Tommy Robinson's Barley Water


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 1, 2018)

Abu Hamburger


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

Abu Musab al-Zucchini


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2018)

Noodle Doodlebugs


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 1, 2018)

Melton Mosely


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 1, 2018)

Herringvolk


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 1, 2018)

Ducelatte


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

u-kipper


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 1, 2018)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Das BEERS


Das Bloater


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

The Wooden Horsemeat


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

Colditz cuts


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

The Grape Escape


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

A Brie Too Far


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2018)

Maquis D's


----------



## kabbes (Nov 1, 2018)

This is well fucking tedious

*unsubscribes from thread*


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2018)

We begin with the Horst Pretzel Song, followed by a rousing rendition of Tomorrow Belongs to Kedgeree and the Star Spangles Banner.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 1, 2018)

Jambalaya Al-Nusra


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 1, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if the field's more widely open then you might have vinniedaloo jones


Or Morrischeese


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 1, 2018)

Salafish


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 1, 2018)

kabbes said:


> This is well fucking tedious
> 
> *unsubscribes from thread*


This means you must think our craic is fishier that lucilleseas


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 1, 2018)

Benito Mueslini


----------



## Athos (Nov 1, 2018)

kabbes said:


> This is well fucking tedious
> 
> *unsubscribes from thread*



Yeah, it's pasta joke, now.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 1, 2018)

Strained.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2018)

.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2018)

Francisco Flan-co


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2018)

Evita Pear-on


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2018)

Tooth-pik Botha


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2018)

Salad-zar


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2018)

BBQuisling


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 1, 2018)

Leon De-grill

Eoin O'Puff-pastry


----------



## Wilf (Nov 1, 2018)

Nigel F'lange.


----------



## fishfinger (Nov 1, 2018)

Il Ducky


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 1, 2018)

Golden Grahams Dawn


----------



## twentythreedom (Nov 2, 2018)

Adolfinoise potatoes


----------



## GreatGutsby (Nov 10, 2018)

The word gammon is just funny, plain and simple. And if anyone deserves to be judged on their appearance surely it's gammons, it's what they do to people all the fucking time.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 10, 2018)

Fritz crackers.


----------



## JimW (Nov 10, 2018)

GreatGutsby said:


> The word gammon is just funny, plain and simple. And if anyone deserves to be judged on their appearance surely it's gammons, it's what they do to people all the fucking time.


But mum, he started it.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Nov 10, 2018)

All the other children do.


----------



## GreatGutsby (Nov 10, 2018)

Seems to me that if you don't find the word gammon funny then you probably lack a sense of humour.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 10, 2018)

Flamegrilled reichstag


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 10, 2018)

GreatGutsby said:


> Seems to me that if you don't find the word gammon funny then you probably lack a sense of humour.


Seems to me that if you do find it funny, you're either childish, racist or both.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Nov 10, 2018)

GreatGutsby said:


> Seems to me that if you don't find the word gammon funny then you probably lack a sense of humour.



There are much funnier words in the English language..
Such as ...."buttocks" and "collywobbles".
Gammon isn't a particularly funny word.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 10, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> There are much funnier words in the English language..
> Such as ...."buttocks" and "collywobbles".
> Gammon isn't a particularly funny word.


Doughnut’s a good one.


----------



## extra dry (Nov 10, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> Doughnut’s a good one.




I always find calling someone a clown really offends.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 10, 2018)

extra dry said:


> I always find calling someone a clown really offends.


Clowns are sinister and creepy.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Nov 10, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> Clowns are sinister and creepy.



Absolutely.


----------



## extra dry (Nov 11, 2018)

You can also use 'what a clown' when hearing of someone mishandeling a difficult situation, through their own actions.

 Like Brexit. Just call politictions clowns.


----------



## A380 (Nov 11, 2018)

On an unrelated topic: did anyone actually establish who lucillemara was in the end?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 11, 2018)

A380 said:


> On an unrelated topic: did anyone actually establish who lucillemara was in the end?


I don’t think so. But they seem to have left of their own accord.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 15, 2018)

lucillemara said:


> vampire castle. mark fisher has written some good stuff but this particular piece of shit is odious and reactionary and he knew exactly what he was doing in the climate it was published. it's still used to attack anyone - feminists, postcolonialists, disabled people, queer people and others - who depart from macho left orthodoxy by not reducing all oppression to a dematerialised colonial model of "class" while claiming to oppose identity politics.



That is not why that text is wrong (and it is most definitely wrong) you masochistic putrescent pasty-faced bohemian Wyndham Lewis lookalike.

And if you had any sense and actually cleaned the smegma under your civilised gentile appendage you would realise that your antifascism is the most infantile politics this side of 1935 (and that would be a compliment.) Fool, democracy is not some rapturous shrine. There is no such thing as unique fascist ideology (have you even read Mussolini exalting fascism as a real democracy?) it is all state organisation. Do you seriously believe that the crusty reactionary nostalgics like Michael Oakeshitt could run a country? In wanting to give us a necrotic erection you have relapsed into the most kneejerk anti-imperialism. You were cleverer when you did not sign up for that ph.d programme. You are going to end up pitting yourself against the invariant monolith of the proletarian theory of knowledge in favour of .. smeering us with the donkey excrement of that french anticolonial national liberation supporting fascist beloved of the present day bourgeois existential wrecks. 

Unfortunately you missed the art school posturing that was hip a few years ago so you'll have to reinvent the sci fi aesthetic.



Spoiler: EVC



is wrong cos it was an outgrowth of his shit left accelerationism and doesn't deal with the conditions of migrant workers (both temp and permanent) and the increasing intrusion of labour surveillance/union management technologies. It's basically a deification of a tendancy of capital. That Asad haidar book also sounds a bit boring (i haven't read it yet) but it seems to be shitty NCM nostalgia - that whole eclectist US left is another fucking story. sigh.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 15, 2018)

Wow.   . I reckon you should have your own politics programme on television, dialectician .  It would be lively.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Nov 15, 2018)

As I said, content and style are completely different. Nice to see you around these parts again dial x


----------



## andysays (Nov 15, 2018)

Fighting nonsense with gibberish


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 15, 2018)

Glad to see you back dial. And glad to see the odd couple weren’t you.


----------



## Athos (Nov 15, 2018)

dialectician said:


> That is not why that text is wrong (and it is most definitely wrong) you masochistic putrescent pasty-faced bohemian Wyndham Lewis lookalike.
> 
> And if you had any sense and actually cleaned the smegma under your civilised gentile appendage you would realise that your antifascism is the most infantile politics this side of 1935 (and that would be a compliment.) Fool, democracy is not some rapturous shrine. There is no such thing as unique fascist ideology (have you even read Mussolini exalting fascism as a real democracy?) it is all state organisation. Do you seriously believe that the crusty reactionary nostalgics like Michael Oakeshitt could run a country? In wanting to give us a necrotic erection you have relapsed into the most kneejerk anti-imperialism. You were cleverer when you did not sign up for that ph.d programme. You are going to end up pitting yourself against the invariant monolith of the proletarian theory of knowledge in favour of .. smeering us with the donkey excrement of that french anticolonial national liberation supporting fascist beloved of the present day bourgeois existential wrecks.
> 
> ...



Apologies, I'd thought Lucille (and possibly the other) was you on a windup.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 15, 2018)

As did I for a time.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 15, 2018)

I didn't. But has the Lucille character gone now? Good.

Wasn't there a really dire country western song about Lucille?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 15, 2018)

Celyn said:


> Wasn't there a really dire country western song about Lucille


I love that song!


----------



## Celyn (Nov 15, 2018)

Hah. Found it. Kenny Rogers. leave me lucille - Bing video

But it is so damn - I don't know what. So schunkeln and sort of fall asleep over your beer music. OK, I suppose a song addressing the socio-economic factors might not have been quite so popular, but still ... 

Eek, I now notice that it was Number 1 in the UK at some point in 1977.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 15, 2018)

Athos said:


> Apologies, I'd thought Lucille (and possibly the other) was you on a windup.



Why? the identity politics stuff is just a constructed debate that has no relevance outside the universities or leftist scenes over who wants to monopolise cultural production with some 60s social democratic nostalgia tacked on. talk to people not involved in that stuff and idpol as a construction (pro or anti) would just not make sense. it's an insulated left/SJ concept. same shit innit.


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## Athos (Nov 15, 2018)

dialectician said:


> Why? the identity politics stuff is just a constructed debate that has no relevance outside the universities or leftist scenes over who wants to monopolise cultural production with some 60s social democratic nostalgia tacked on. talk to people not involved in that stuff and idpol as a construction (pro or anti) would just not make sense. it's an insulated left/SJ concept. same shit innit.



It was the style, rather than the content that made me suspect it was you fucking about. And that fact you've been a bit bonkers lately.


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## A380 (Nov 18, 2018)




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## Friedrich986 (Nov 18, 2018)

likesfish said:


> It's not, being a middle age fat angry white racist bloke is not a protected group.
> 
> If you are angry at being called gammon you should probably have a good long hard look at yourself in the mirror.
> 
> nobody's going to be shoving gammon steaks through people letterboxes or screaming it at kids.


according to left-wing ideology, then gammon is in fact 'racist' - ie. persecution of a group based on their beliefs


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## likesfish (Nov 18, 2018)

that's not racism if your beliefs are toxic you deserve the shit you get.


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## Friedrich986 (Nov 18, 2018)

how do you define 'toxic'?


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## danny la rouge (Nov 18, 2018)

Friedrich986 said:


> according to left-wing ideology, then gammon is in fact 'racist' - ie. persecution of a group based on their beliefs


That's not how I define racism.


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## GreatGutsby (Nov 29, 2018)

Gammon, the only 'racist slur' that gammons are offended by.


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## M Testa (Nov 29, 2018)

is gammon racist? no, but many racists are gammon faced head boilers who need curing. or smoking.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2019)

the nation, 4/2/1860


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## gentlegreen (Feb 6, 2019)

Dr. Max Gammon - Kipper.

Both videos cued to his part in them.


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## Southlondon (Feb 6, 2019)

M Testa said:


> is gammon racist? no, but many racists are gammon faced head boilers who need curing. or smoking.


And the majority of us gammon faced baldies are not racist. If some spotty pencil-necked student dressed up like a bloody ninja calls me a gammon when I turn up to oppose fascists as I have done for the last 4 decades, I will be having a robust chat with them I promise


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 6, 2019)

But obviously nobody would do that.


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## Fairweather (Nov 15, 2020)

...........


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## Shechemite (Nov 15, 2020)

Eh?


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## klang (Nov 15, 2020)

Fairweather said:


> ...........


discussions on the ten point plan deserve their own thread imo


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 15, 2020)

Fairweather said:


> ...........



Epic bump to post that....


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## Fairweather (Nov 15, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Epic bump to post that....



The bump was to a thread on a forum that’s full of racist fuckers. The thread on that forum was deleted, hence my deleted post.


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## krtek a houby (Nov 15, 2020)

Fairweather said:


> ...........



Some very interesting points


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## krtek a houby (Nov 16, 2020)

Southlondon said:


> And the majority of us gammon faced baldies are not racist. If some spotty pencil-necked student dressed up like a bloody ninja calls me a gammon when I turn up to oppose fascists as I have done for the last 4 decades, I will be having a robust chat with them I promise



Ninja?


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## Southlondon (Nov 18, 2020)

I just find it quite comical when I see groups of excitable young anti fascists all dressed head to toe in black. I understand that to them it makes them anonymous, but for me we will know we’re winning when our side look just like a representative cross section of working class society, and I find any attempt at creating an ‘image ‘ as daft as I found the RCP back in the day when they were all directed to wear identical nylon bomber jackets every time they gathered their students together.  And as I say, it is not right to profile every fat bald Middle Aged white man as a racist by shouting gammon at them. If they talk like a fascist and March like a facist there’s already an appropriate label and that’s fascist. Most of us bald white men are not racists or fascists and so be careful who you label that’s all I’m saying. If people want to wear fancy dress on a March knock cool, knock yourself out but don’t blanket label a particular demographic because some of of us might develop a pink hue as we age, I find it ducking insulting  QUOTE="krtek a houby, post: 16817444, member: 2838"]
Ninja?
[/QUOTE]


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## krtek a houby (Nov 18, 2020)

You're aware that the word ninja can also be deemed as offensive?


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## Southlondon (Nov 18, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> You're aware that the word ninja can also be deemed as offensive?


No. Really ? Why? I’ve not heard of that before. I just thought of ninja warriors being skilled in martial arts and clandestine actions against opposing warlords. I apologise to any proponents of the ninja arts for any offence caused.


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## krtek a houby (Nov 18, 2020)

Southlondon said:


> No. Really ? Why? I’ve not heard of that before. I just thought of ninja warriors being skilled in martial arts and clandestine actions against opposing warlords. I apologise to any proponents of the ninja arts for any offence caused.



It's been used as a derogatory term against women wearing the niqab.


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## rubbershoes (Nov 18, 2020)

Southlondon said:


> No. Really ? Why? I’ve not heard of that before. I just thought of ninja warriors being skilled in martial arts and clandestine actions against opposing warlords. I apologise to any proponents of the ninja arts for any offence caused.



Believe me, silent assassins aren't a group of people you want to offend


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## Southlondon (Nov 18, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> Believe me, silent assassins aren't a group of people you want to offend


Or then pot-bellied turtles


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## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

just now i was reading a report of a great scrap at the free-trade hall in manchester between irish home rulers and fenians in september 1873 and came across this curious passage

mr power is the irish mp john o'connor power; mr butt was isaac butt, at that time leader of the home rule party in parliament


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> just now i was reading a report of a great scrap at the free-trade hall in manchester between irish home rulers and fenians in september 1873 and came across this curious passage



possibly this context?


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