# Sick days



## ajdown (Aug 6, 2013)

What do people think is a 'reasonable' amount of days sick leave in a year?

I've had one so far this year, but a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.

Curious to hera what your experiences are of how much time you (or people in your company) get off sick before action gets taken.


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## mod (Aug 6, 2013)

0

i'm self employed. No work = no £££££.

Stop moaning about other peoples problems and get on with your job.


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## Yelkcub (Aug 6, 2013)

This shoud go well.


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## Private Storm (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't take sick days. I "work at home".


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## bi0boy (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.


 
You should lobby management to have them dismissed - I mean, you don't know that they have any kind of medical problems so it must be skiving right? In fact they probably bunk off out of spite in order to make you do more work.


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## Kanda (Aug 6, 2013)

How does their time off affect your work??


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

Kanda said:


> How does their time off affect your work??


 

And do you know why they were off sick?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

There is no reasonable or unreasonable amount of days. If you're ill, you're ill.


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> There is no reasonable or unreasonable amount of days. If you're ill, you're ill.


 

This. 

People at my work were always very understanding of my being off sick because I was very open about what was wrong with me but people shouldn't have to tell general colleagues about their every ailment if they don't want to. 
It's not really any of your business unless you're their manager.


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## ruffneck23 (Aug 6, 2013)

I had 2 months off earlier this year . glad I don't work with the OP


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> What do people think is a 'reasonable' amount of days sick leave in a year?
> 
> I've had one so far this year, but a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.
> 
> Curious to hera what your experiences are of how much time you (or people in your company) get off sick before action gets taken.



What others have said.  Also fuck off tory wankbag.


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## bi0boy (Aug 6, 2013)

Perhaps the OP would prefer to have a serious illness?


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Perhaps the OP would prefer to have a serious illness?



A few others on here might prefer that too.


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## Bob_the_lost (Aug 6, 2013)

Depends what's wrong with you.


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Depends what's wrong with you.


 

Well quite but what is wrong with the OP's colleague has nothing to do with the OP.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Well quite but what is wrong with the OP's colleague has nothing to do with the OP.



Innit.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

Yeah, where the fuck does he get off. Spiteful little prick.
He has a history of mean-spirited ignorant posts like that .


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## kabbes (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> What do people think is a 'reasonable' amount of days sick leave in a year?
> 
> I've had one so far this year, but a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.
> 
> Curious to hera what your experiences are of how much time you (or people in your company) get off sick before action gets taken.


 
Half a day is reasonable.  You should be fired for your profligate use of a whole day.


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

Have we  scared AJ away


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## seeformiles (Aug 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Half a day is reasonable. You should be fired for your profligate use of a whole day.


 

You bleeding heart liberal.......


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Have we  scared AJ away



Maybe he's taken a sicky


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Maybe he's taken a sicky


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## ajdown (Aug 6, 2013)

No, I didn't expect such a flurry of posts in such a short time, that's all.

She's had 22 "sick days" since 1st January.  I feel that's excessive, regardless of the cause.

Why does it bother me? Because I end up having to pick up the slack from the work she doesn't do.

The fact she's married to one of the directors I'm sure has absolutely nothing to do with nothing being done.


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## kabbes (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> No, I didn't expect such a flurry of posts in such a short time, that's all.
> 
> She's had 22 "sick days" since 1st January. I feel that's excessive, regardless of the cause.
> 
> ...


 
Regardless of the cause? 

Good thing you aren't the boss.


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## tony.c (Aug 6, 2013)

If you have enough time to 'pick up the slack' you obviously don't have enough work to do.


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## ajdown (Aug 6, 2013)

If it was after an operation, or something else, then that's a completely different thing.  She has not had anything requiring hospitalisation.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 6, 2013)

If a business can't cope with employees going off sick it's clearly under-resourced and/or badly managed.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

'Regardless of the cause'? WTF? There are plenty of conditions and illnesses (that you have no right to know about) that may result in having to take that many sick days off.
What right do you have to judge when you are not fully aware of all the facts?


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## ajdown (Aug 6, 2013)

tony.c said:


> If you have enough time to 'pick up the slack' you obviously don't have enough work to do.


 
... or, of course, the work I should be doing just gets pushed aside and I end up working more hours than I should be.

I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation?  I'm not the one having sick days.


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## tony.c (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> If it was after an operation, or something else, then that's a completely different thing. She has not had anything requiring hospitalisation.


Are you medically qualified?


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## ajdown (Aug 6, 2013)

Not sure how "medically qualified" comes into this discussion, if it was an operation she'd have mentioned it.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> ... or, of course, the work I should be doing just gets pushed aside and I end up working more hours than I should be.
> 
> I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation?  I'm not the one having sick days.


Why is having a sick day a bad thing to do?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Not sure how "medically qualified" comes into this discussion, if it was an operation she'd have mentioned it.


I wouldn't necessarily share that with colleagues. Why should I?


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## Kanda (Aug 6, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is having a sick day a bad thing to do?


 

Well, if you're not sick it's not exactly great...


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## tony.c (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation?


When you started moaning about your colleague being off sick.


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## mwgdrwg (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> No, I didn't expect such a flurry of posts in such a short time, that's all.
> 
> She's had 22 "sick days" since 1st January. I feel that's excessive, regardless of the cause.
> 
> ...


 
Scrounger! It is your duty to report this. Why should we pay our taxes for the like of her? Is she even from this country?


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## bi0boy (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> If it was after an operation, or something else, then that's a completely different thing. She has not had anything requiring hospitalisation.


 
Perhaps she is suffering from severe depression, and feels suicidal on the days she's not there. Perhaps if she had have come in, the sight of you would have pushed her over the edge.


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## tony.c (Aug 6, 2013)

mwgdrwg said:


> Scrounger! It is your duty to report this. Why should we pay our taxes for the like of her? Is she even from this country?


Yeah call UKBA.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> ... or, of course, the work I should be doing just gets pushed aside and I end up working more hours than I should be.
> 
> I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation?  I'm not the one having sick days.


Maybe she just gets a lot of colds. I know friends who always seem to be troubled by some ailment or another. Some people are just unlucky with their health


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Not sure how "medically qualified" comes into this discussion, if it was an operation she'd have mentioned it.


 

So there is nothing other than hospitalization that requires time off sick? 
She could have menstrual/hormonal problems, depression, anxiety, IBS, fucking anything that you may well not be aware of.


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## tony.c (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> She's had 22 "sick days" since 1st January. I feel that's excessive, regardless of the cause.


You keep a record of her absences?


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## 19sixtysix (Aug 6, 2013)

Only one day off.  Suspect we know which cunt comes in with a cold spreading about at work and on public transport.


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## colacubes (Aug 6, 2013)

At the end of the day AJ it's absolutely none of your business.  She may have a medical condition that's not obvious to the naked eye (mental health, hidden disability, gynaecological problems or all sorts).  I used to regularly have to take 2 or 3 days off a month because I was bleeding so heavily during my period that I couldn't leave the house without bleeding all over my clothes/the bus/the tube during the 35 minute journey to work.  She might just get loads of colds.  She might be skiving.  But you don't get to decide what's right or wrong.  Her manager/HR department can take action if they have policies about it.  Or it might be that they know something you don't.  Or they might be shit.  You just have to suck it up and stop moaning about it.


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## Schmetterling (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> No, I didn't expect such a flurry of posts in such a short time, that's all.
> 
> She's had 22 "sick days" since 1st January. I feel that's excessive, regardless of the cause.
> 
> ...


 
Then your complaint should be about/to management.  Your post framed this about her rights to be off with illness whereas this should be about management failing to provide adequate cover.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 6, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Perhaps she is suffering from severe depression, and feels suicidal on the days she's not there. Perhaps if she had have come in, the sight of you would have pushed her over the edge.



Fucking this.


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## ajdown (Aug 6, 2013)

Before "formulating a complaint" it was merely a simple request as to whether 22 sick days was unreasonable or not.  I've been in this job 16 years now so I have no idea what is considered normal elsewhere.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

You've had your answer. There is no unreasonable amount.


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## ajdown (Aug 6, 2013)

I can't help but wonder whether there would have been a different response if my post had read "My boss is getting arsey because I've had 22 sick days since January".


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## tony.c (Aug 6, 2013)

Probably.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I can't help but wonder whether there would have been a different response if my post had read "My boss is getting arsey because I've had 22 sick days since January".


Well, duuuur


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I can't help but wonder whether there would have been a different response if my post had read "My boss is getting arsey because I've had 22 sick days since January".


 

Of course it would be different because it is a different question


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## ddraig (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I can't help but wonder whether there would have been a different response if my post had read "My boss is getting arsey because I've had 22 sick days since January".


 
go on, have a go at how it would look different...


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

Also like colacubes said, I used to (aside from my main health concerns) have to regularly take days off due to period issues. Heavy uncontrollable bleeding, severe pain that normal pain killers don't touch, fainting, hormonal emotional responses including sobbing and shaking violently. 
Why should someone have to tell you about that.


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## killer b (Aug 6, 2013)

_sorry i wasn't in yesterday AJ, but it were like someone had slaughtered a pig in my cunt._


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## ddraig (Aug 6, 2013)

yeah! well, MEN don't have them so WOMEN should be docked for being sick in THAT way! 
or something


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## Miss-Shelf (Aug 6, 2013)

one year I had near on four months off
this year I haven't had any sick days off
just depends on a persons health at that time

what Schmetterling said about it being a management issue is spot on too rather than a co-worker issue


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## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've been in this job 16 years now


 

Sinicure


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## Garek (Aug 6, 2013)

If you fancy some time off you could just step in front of a bus.


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## kabbes (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation?


 
It was at this point:



ajdown said:


> What do people think is a 'reasonable' amount of days sick leave in a year?
> 
> I've had one so far this year, but a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.
> 
> Curious to hera what your experiences are of how much time you (or people in your company) get off sick before action gets taken.


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## stupid dogbot (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I feel that's excessive, regardless of the cause.


 
I should post about it on the internet, that'll help.


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## Greebo (Aug 6, 2013)

It's only since I haven't had to share a kitchen that I've managed to reduce my migraines from at least one a week to an average of one every other month.  Add in the usual winter ailments, including chest infections and lost voice and I could very easily average 21 sick days since the start of the year, If I were in full time employment.

No sensible employer would want me to show up in any of those states.  When it comes to migraine, yes I can take something and still be incapable of reading, writing, making rational decisions, or doing anything which requires balance or spatial awareness for several hours.  You really wouldn't want me in the workplace until it had passed.  Nor would it be safe to commute in that state.


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## kabbes (Aug 6, 2013)

The key point to all this is that nobody has to justify it to you, ajdown.  You are not deserving of an explanation.  Your issues about your own workflow are between you and your management.  Your issues with a fellow worker's work ethic are literally non-existent.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2013)

16 years in the same position says a lot


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## Greebo (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown, I do hope that you're not using your employer's internet to get on urban, except during your breaks and with their permission?  Anything else would be wilfully misusing your employer's time and resources.


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## Greebo (Aug 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> 16 years in the same position says a lot


 
Either working there can't really be that bad or ajdown knows that he's got no chance at all of finding another job.  I just can't work out which option is the more probable.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Either working there can't really be that bad or ajdown knows that he's got no chance at all of finding another job. I just can't work out which option is the more probable.


 

the former imo. Clearly working there is piss easy and the only way he'll leave is feet first in a pine jacket cos he's got a cushty number. I don't begrudge that of a man but to then take to the tall steed about other peoples sick days makes him look like a cunt


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## kabbes (Aug 6, 2013)

What is better for you personally in the long run, ajdown?  That the company be flexible, trusting and adult?  Or that everybody be constantly watching each other and snitching to management?


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## existentialist (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation?  I'm not the one having sick days.


You are the "bad guy" simply for feeling entitled to ask this question.


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## trabuquera (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've been in this job 16 years now ...


 
Sounds like you're well overdue for a 360 degree performance review and having to reapply for your own position then. Why should you suffer any less than other British workers?

yet again: it's not your job to nose into the co-worker's health or her number of sick days. If you feel you are being unfairly overloaded with work as a result it's your responsibility to take it up with your manager and ensure that your employers are providing adequate cover. TBH I can understand your resentment (even if I don't agree with your target) and the setup does sound crappy - she IS probably getting away with more than she could because of her personal relationship with senior man in the company and you MIGHT indeed be feeling justifiably annoyed about that.  But it's interesting how you're so much readier to snipe and jibe at a co-worker than take on your bosses. Kick down, kiss up, eh?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Before "formulating a complaint" it was merely a simple request as to whether 22 sick days was unreasonable or not. I've been in this job 16 years now so I have no idea what is considered normal elsewhere.


 
I think the problem is that there is nothing to quantify this with. You don't know why she was taking these days off so we have no idea if it is unreasonable or not.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

I hate how as a society we are turning into a bunch of curtain-twitching poison-pen-letter-writing suspicious resentful small-minded vindictive Pooters bent on destroying each other instead of the cunts who are encouraging us into this and are the real cause of our shitty situation


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## killer b (Aug 6, 2013)

hopefully she's been taking the days off to drink gin and call aj a cunt.


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## existentialist (Aug 6, 2013)

killer b said:


> hopefully she's been taking the days off to drink gin and call aj a cunt.


Whilst doing cartwheels in the sunshine.


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## killer b (Aug 6, 2013)

she's laughing at you AJ. coincidentally, so's everyone else.

you know how you don't really have any friends at work, and people stop talking when you walk into a room? this is why.


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## Schmetterling (Aug 6, 2013)

Garek said:


> If you fancy some time off you could just step in front of a bus.


 
A colleague and I seeeeeriously - well, humourously [sp?] seriously - considered breaking each other's leg so that we can have some paid time off!   I think we laughed and cried at the same time.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> I think the problem is that there is nothing to quantify this with. You don't know why she was taking these days off so we have no idea if it is unreasonable or not.


 
its unreasonable for him to be wondering about wether a co-workers sick days are justified or not full stop. If he's being unduly overworked because of it then thats a reasonable gripe but he should kick the problem upstairs and see what happens rather than trying to 'out' his fellow worker. 

Maybe he should fuck the director himself if he's so annoyed, might get a promotion but 16 years in the same place suggests his limitations have been duly noted. Like a police constable who has been a police constable for 20 years and still hasn't got the message


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

I frequently used to fantasise about breaking a leg so I could a) get lots of time off a stressful job, b) get lots of reading done and c) get loads of cards and sympathy 
Actually, I still daydream about it


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## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> *I frequently used to fantasise about breaking a leg* so I could a) get lots of time off a stressful job, b) get lots of reading done and c) get loads of cards and sympathy
> Actually, I still daydream about it


 
anytime I've been in serious shit I've fantasised about geting run down by a car on a zebra crossing so I would get massive compo and not have to face my issues


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> anytime I've been in serious shit I've fantasised about geting run down by a car on a zebra crossing so I would get massive compo and *not have to face my issues*


YUP, that's the key really!


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I frequently used to fantasise about breaking a leg so I could a) get lots of time off a stressful job, b) get lots of reading done and c) get loads of cards and sympathy
> Actually, I still daydream about it


 

I came this >< close to throwing myself down a flight of stairs in work once coz I just couldn't take it anymore.


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## maomao (Aug 6, 2013)

I've worked with someone who was definitely taking the piss and I had to do a large proportion of the work that they didn't (I did get paid extra but I would have rather had more sleep tbh). He did lose his job eventually (and has lost a couple since) but it ground on for two years and caused a few people quite a lot of stress. So it's hard to jump down someone's throat just for moaning about a colleague being ill. But it's worth pointing out that just because you haven't been privy to any disciplinary action doesn't mean it hasn't taken place. In fact if it's been done properly you shouldn't know about it.


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## xenon (Aug 6, 2013)

*only read page one.*
A. She is or has been ill, physically or mentally.
B. She is / has been ill and also taken a few days off skiving.
C. All 22 days were skiving. 

Most people have thrown a sickie occasionly. Unles you're some kind of pervert that has enjoyed every single job you've done, never been fucked off, or self inflictidly fucked up. However, getting hung up on it being case C, isn't going to help you. You'll look a right cunt if it's A and or B. Grassing up colleagues to management over such things is bang out of order in any case. If your work load is too much as a result, try and deal with that as the issue.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I came this >< close to throwing myself down a flight of stairs in work once coz I just couldn't take it anymore.


Polk tries to do that in The Wire, for less good reasons


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## DotCommunist (Aug 6, 2013)

It's remarkably hard to do as well, when it comes to self harm the mechanisms of substance abuse and cutting/burning your surface skin are prevelant for a reason. Cos you don't want to die you just want the bad things to go away. Stepping out into busy traffic or throwing yourself down a staircase requires a genuine suicide impulse cos the level of hurt is outside of your control.

christ I'm depressing sometimes


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## kittyP (Aug 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> It's remarkably hard to do as well, when it comes to self harm the mechanisms of substance abuse and cutting/burning your surface skin are prevelant for a reason. Cos you don't want to die you just want the bad things to go away. Stepping out into busy traffic or throwing yourself down a staircase requires a genuine suicide impulse cos the level of hurt is outside of your control.
> 
> christ I'm depressing sometimes


 

You are right though. 
I got so upset with myself that I couldn't do it that I collapsed and had to be sent home anyway.


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## Roadkill (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation? I'm not the one having sick days.


 
The second sentence there kind of answers your question.


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## Geri (Aug 6, 2013)

I've had no sick days in the last 21 months, and before then my sick leave was much lower than average.

However, one year, because I had three single days off, my boss was told to interview me about my sickness pattern. Apparently odd days off are considered suspicious, but what they failed to realise was that I was actually ill for more than one day but I struggled in on the others - which makes me think that in their eyes it.s better to take two or three days off!  

My boss was so annoyed he told the bloke from HR to fuck off and put the phone down on him.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 6, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I hate how as a society we are turning into a bunch of curtain-twitching poison-pen-letter-writing suspicious resentful small-minded vindictive Pooters bent on destroying each other instead of the cunts who are encouraging us into this and are the real cause of our shitty situation


 
^ that


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## beesonthewhatnow (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I can't help but wonder whether there would have been a different response if my post had read "My boss is getting arsey because I've had 22 sick days since January".


Think very carefully why the responses would have been different.

Then fuck off.


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

ajdown said:


> No, I didn't expect such a flurry of posts in such a short time, that's all.
> 
> She's had 22 "sick days" since 1st January. I feel that's excessive, regardless of the cause.
> 
> ...


 
It's none of your business why she's off sick unless and until she tells you.

You try working and managing ongoing health problems, see how you like it. It's not a picnic and it's bad enough without being made to feel like you're not really ill from bitching colleagues.

I can appreciate that your workload is more than you would like, have you spoken to anyone about it?

And have some fucking empathy.


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Also, most companies these days have a sickness absence policy and many use something called the Bradford Factor to calculate a 'reasonable' level of absence. It's total management bollocks and does not apply to chronic conditions anyway.

Like geri says, such policies usually frown on single days scattered about but 5 days in a row wouldn't be a problem.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 6, 2013)

it's also interesting that there's a fairly high match between people who argue the "if you're not 100% well all the time you shouldn't get / keep a job" line and the same people who argue the "if you're not 100% disabled all the time you shouldn't get benefits" line...


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

This judgmental bollocks really pisses me off - if I'm off sick I'm off sick. My health is precarious enough without risking it further just to stop the office gossips from bitching.

I hope you never need a lot of time off work, ajdown, I can assure you that when you've been out of hospital less than a month and you're fighting for breath all the time because your kidneys aren't working properly, it's really FUN to fight work over whether you should be disciplined for being ill.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> It's remarkably hard to do as well, when it comes to self harm the mechanisms of substance abuse and cutting/burning your surface skin are prevelant for a reason. Cos you don't want to die you just want the bad things to go away. Stepping out into busy traffic or throwing yourself down a staircase requires a genuine suicide impulse cos the level of hurt is outside of your control.
> 
> christ I'm depressing sometimes


 
It's hard to piss your kex on purpose as well. Try it next time you get rained on so much that you just can't be any wetter -You'll be able to do it, but it's more difficult than you might imagine.


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## xenon (Aug 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's hard to piss your kex on purpose as well. Try it next time you get rained on so much that you just can't be any wetter -You'll be able to do it, but it's more difficult than you might imagine.



A mate told me he purposely pissed himself, horribly hungover and walking home one morning. His reasoning, he needed a bath anyway, it was raining, he's phobic about using the tube, - hates it and was wearing absorbant tracksuit trousers... When he told me, I was simultaneously disgusted and impressed.


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## Piston (Aug 6, 2013)

If they don't get paid then it shouldn't matter to you. I would have quite a few sick days in a year but I don't get paid and have to catch up when I get back so I would be furious if someone went moaning about it. Some people never get sick and others catch everything going.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 6, 2013)

It doesn't matter if they're paid either


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## Corax (Aug 6, 2013)

Demand to see their medical records.  If they've nothing to hide, they've nothing to fear.

Seriously ajdown, do you *ever* pause and reflect on the possibilities of other people's lives that you may not have the faintest inkling about?


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Corax said:


> Demand to see their medical records. If they've nothing to hide, they've nothing to fear.
> 
> Seriously ajdown, do you *ever* pause and reflect on the possibilities of other people's lives that you may not have the faintest inkling about?


 
I think we know the answer to that question...


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Piston said:


> If they don't get paid then it shouldn't matter to you. I would have quite a few sick days in a year but I don't get paid and have to catch up when I get back so I would be furious if someone went moaning about it. Some people never get sick and others catch everything going.


 
When I was off ill in 2010 my boss refused to pay me (it's manager's discretion after the company paid amount limit is reached). She thought I was skiving despite OH reports, hospital reports, GP reports, the lot. I had to build up to my hours over 8 months because I'd been so ill and was put on probation for a year.

Shit like this OP makes me very angry.


----------



## Corax (Aug 7, 2013)

I see a career opportunity at ATOS for the OP.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 7, 2013)

Corax said:


> I see a career opportunity at ATOS for the OP.


 

It shows how they get away with what they do doesn't it, when you see how some people think?
It might seem out of place on wibral Urban but I bet he is far from unusual in his way of thinking.


----------



## Corax (Aug 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> It shows how they get away with what they do doesn't it, when you see how some people think?
> It might seem out of place on wibral Urban but I bet he is far from unusual in his way of thinking.


 
Completely.  U75 shows as good a reflection of 'average' society as a malformed black-hole.  What's struck me most over the years is that the vast majority of people - and I'm drawing from a _wide_ range of backgrounds/socioeconomics here - just aren't in the slightest bit interested until this stuff touches them personally.  And even then they'll sometimes (often?) pin it on the wrong target.


----------



## JTG (Aug 7, 2013)

I had a month off work a while back. Stress, caused by work amongst other things. When I got back, it emerged that someone had told my boss they'd 'seen me in town' during my absence - not that they knew what I was off for or why. Like I should have been staying in bed for four weeks rather than getting better by getting out and about.

Nobbers

Anyway, haven't bothered with a job in a year now so that's that problem solved


----------



## Plumdaff (Aug 7, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> When I was off ill in 2010 my boss refused to pay me (it's manager's discretion after the company paid amount limit is reached). She thought I was skiving despite OH reports, hospital reports, GP reports, the lot. I had to build up to my hours over 8 months because I'd been so ill and was put on probation for a year.
> 
> Shit like this OP makes me very angry.


 
Yep. It'd be interesting to know what the sick leave entitlement is at the OP's worl. Could be she's dragging herself in 'cos of money worries and can't take an extended period off. Friend of mine who worked for of all things a GP surgery had to go into work throughout chemotherapy and radiotherapy as the sick leave entitlement was so shite she couldn't afford not to.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> It shows how they get away with what they do doesn't it, when you see how some people think?
> It might seem out of place on wibral Urban but I bet he is far from unusual in his way of thinking.


 
I find that many people are quick to judge on others, yet when pressed on the darkies up the road who brought round some samosas and gave our shitfaced lad a lift home last week, those ones are OK, it's the others, innit.

Most people are OK, they just let a load of wankers manipulate their thinking cos they really don't want to think hard enough cos when they do they don't like what they see of this world.

Kill the toffs, kill the politicos; then we can start making a world that MOST people would actually like to live in.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2013)

Plumdaff said:


> Yep. It'd be interesting to know what the sick leave entitlement is at the OP's worl. Could be she's dragging herself in 'cos of money worries and can't take an extended period off. Friend of mine who worked for of all things a GP surgery had to go into work throughout chemotherapy and radiotherapy as the sick leave entitlement was so shite she couldn't afford not to.


 
Yet another excellent reason as why ajdown should keep his thoughts to himself and butt out of his colleague's business.

Sorry about your friend Plumdaff, is she ok now?


----------



## Plumdaff (Aug 7, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Yet another excellent reason as why ajdown should keep his thoughts to himself and butt out of his colleague's business.
> 
> Sorry about your friend Plumdaff, is she ok now?


 
Thankfully not only has been entirely in remission for nearly six years now she also has another job . Seriously, GPs are utter tossbags to work for a lot of the time. Big mistake leaving them out of the NHS.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 8, 2013)

if your that upset about it then the next time shes in have a word with her IN PRIVATE don't grass her up like a sneaky little cunt.


----------



## RedDragon (Aug 8, 2013)

I'd be interested in knowing if this is a private or public sector company. 

Doesn't AJ have some right to raise their concern that staffing levels aren't adequate to cover absenteeism?

eta - it's a bit shitty to target an individual for being sick


----------



## DownwardDog (Aug 8, 2013)

22 days in 7.5 months is clearly more likely to be piss take territory.

OP should fight fire with fire as the company is clearly rubbish at managing this sort of thing and fake 20+ sickies himself. See how sick she feels when she has to do OP's TPS reports.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 8, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> if your that upset about it then the next time shes in have a word with her IN PRIVATE don't grass her up like a sneaky little cunt.



Really? What should he say to her? "I noticed you have been off sick a lot and I think you might be taking the piss so I want you tell me exactly what's wrong with you"

The only acceptable thing for him to do is to go to management and say something like "I am finding it difficult to manage the increased workload when other staff are absent, so you need to consider either hiring additional staff or reducing the workload expectations."


----------



## Santino (Aug 8, 2013)

DownwardDog said:


> 22 days in 7.5 months is clearly more likely to be piss take territory.
> 
> OP should fight fire with fire as the company is clearly rubbish at managing this sort of thing and fake 20+ sickies himself. See how sick she feels when she has to do OP's TPS reports.


Everyone pay attention to this man!


----------



## mincepie (Aug 8, 2013)

Google "Bradford factor score"
This will give you a HR-type speak answer


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2013)

mincepie said:


> Google "Bradford factor score"
> This will give you a HR-type speak answer


 
Good God, my score is MASSIVE on that (the Bradford score takes a very dim view of single days off sick).


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 8, 2013)

ajdown said:


> What do people think is a 'reasonable' amount of days sick leave in a year?
> 
> I've had one so far this year, but a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.
> 
> Curious to hera what your experiences are of how much time you (or people in your company) get off sick before action gets taken.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Yeah, where the fuck does he get off. Spiteful little prick.
> He has a history of mean-spirited ignorant posts like that .



He's a voyeur too. Maybe he'll get a boner over watching the fallout like he did when he turned up to watch people getting pissed at Liverpool St station (when booze on the tube was about to be banned) that he claimed to disapprove of.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 8, 2013)

tony.c said:
			
		

> If you have enough time to 'pick up the slack' you obviously don't have enough work to do.



That reminds me of one of our senior managers bragging about all the extra responsibilities he's taken on and a colleague quipped "well you can't have been that busy to begin with then."


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

mincepie said:


> Google "Bradford factor score"
> This will give you a HR-type speak answer


 
The Bradford factor's what got me sacked from the only halfway decent long termish job I had. Well, I say the Bradford factor, but it was my absenteeism that did it - But my accumulated Bradford points were such that it was simply un-ingnorable. TBF to the company though, they really didn't want to sack me, I left them no option really though.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> The Bradford factor's what got me sacked from the only halfway decent long termish job I had. Well, I say the Bradford factor, but it was my absenteeism that did it - But my accumulated Bradford points were such that it was simply un-ingnorable. TBF to the company though, they really didn't want to sack me, I left them no option really though.


 
Pfft!  They could ignore it if they wanted - my employer does (I have a heart condition that has meant having to have it restarted with defibrillators over a dozen times over the last few years).


----------



## kittyP (Aug 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> He's a voyeur too. Maybe he'll get a boner over watching the fallout like he did when he turned up to watch people getting pissed at Liverpool St station (when booze on the tube was about to be banned) that he claimed to disapprove of.


 

I think he has left this thread to us.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 8, 2013)

8ball said:


> Pfft! They could ignore it if they wanted - my employer does (I have a heart condition that has meant having to have it restarted with defibrillators over a dozen times over the last few years).


 
Nah, I really did take the piss - I got used to having the wage but felt like actually having to turn up there at a set time every day was a massive imposition. And, unlike you, I had no health problems. I used to roll in at dinner time and go "What, have you started without me?" Which couldn't really be allowed to go on. I regret it in a way, but you live & learn.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Nah, I really did take the piss - I got used to having the wage but felt like actually having to turn up there at a set time every day was a massive imposition. And, unlike you, I had no health problems. I used to roll in at dinner time and go "What, have you started without me?" Which couldn't really be allowed to go on. I regret it in a way, but you live & learn.


 
Ah, fair enough - bit naughty.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2013)

DownwardDog said:


> 22 days in 7.5 months is clearly more likely to be piss take territory.
> 
> OP should fight fire with fire as the company is clearly rubbish at managing this sort of thing and fake 20+ sickies himself. See how sick she feels when she has to do OP's TPS reports.


 
Rubbish. We have no idea what's wrong with her.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2013)

8ball said:


> Good God, my score is MASSIVE on that (the Bradford score takes a very dim view of single days off sick).


 
I was over 9000 points at one point.

By the way, case law says best practice is for days off sick to be split into those relating to disability (e.g your heart problem) and not related to disability (e.g. food poisoning), and only take the non-disability days into account for any comparison purposes.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2013)

And the Bradford factor was never designed for chronic illness/disability absence management.


----------



## 8ball (Aug 8, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> By the way, case law says best practice is for days off sick to be split into those relating to disability (e.g your heart problem) and not related to disability (e.g. food poisoning), and only take the non-disability days into account for any comparison purposes.


 
That's interesting.  Though I feel a bit sad for those people prone to food poisoning.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 8, 2013)

Are people naturally prone to food poisoning? 
Or just naturally bad cooks or rubbish at choosing hygienic takeaways?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2013)

8ball said:


> That's interesting. Though I feel a bit sad for those people prone to food poisoning.


 
As an instance of one or two days off - it was an example


----------



## Thora (Aug 8, 2013)

I reckon about 8 is reasonable if there's nothing really wrong with you.


----------



## RedDragon (Aug 8, 2013)

How'd she take these 22 days, all in one batch - or every Friday for the last six months?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> How'd she take these 22 days, all in one batch - or every Friday for the last six months?


 
Sure, if there is an obvious pattern like that I would expect words to be passed down from her manager.

One of our administrators always phones in sick when her line manager is out of the office.

But 22 days over a period of several months with a known disability (which includes many medical conditions lasting more than 12 months under the Equality Act 2010) is not that much if she's having a relapse of her condition.


----------



## RedDragon (Aug 8, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> But 22 days over a period of several months with a known disability (which includes many medical conditions lasting more than 12 months under the Equality Act 2010) is not that much if she's having a relapse of her condition.


I totally agree with you. I got fired once for taking time off due to adjusting to insulin complications caused by my diabetes - mercifully that reaction from an employer is now against the law.

However, I think the OP still has a point if they are expected to do double the work if a co-worker is absent, what the employer should be doing is arranging for some form of cover.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> I totally agree with you. I got fired once for taking time off due to adjusting to insulin complications caused by my diabetes - mercifully that reaction from an employer is now against the law.
> 
> However, I think the OP still has a point if they are expected to do double the work if a co-worker is absent, what the employer should be doing is arranging for some form of cover.


 
Exactly - he should be taking it up with his employer.


----------



## Looby (Aug 8, 2013)

Thora said:


> I reckon about 8 is reasonable if there's nothing really wrong with you.



What if someone with no underlying conditions has the flu and a nasty stomach bug within 12 months? That could easily happen if someone is unlucky. 

At our place, disciplinary action can be started after 5 days sickness in a rolling year. It's down to managers discretion so basically whether they are a wanker or whether you get on with them determines what happens to you.


----------



## Looby (Aug 8, 2013)

ajdown said:


> What do people think is a 'reasonable' amount of days sick leave in a year?
> 
> I've had one so far this year, but a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.
> 
> Curious to hera what your experiences are of how much time you (or people in your company) get off sick before action gets taken.



You're a massive cunt. 

I'm off sick at the moment and will be for a few more weeks. It's hard enough without knowing that busybody colleagues with nothing better to do are sniping about me at work.


----------



## DownwardDog (Aug 9, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Rubbish. We have no idea what's wrong with her.


 
I've known far more people that would take the piss to the extent of 20+ days (if allowed) than people who actually need 3+ days/month off with genuine sickness. So the balance of probability clearly tilts toward a cynical interpretation.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 9, 2013)

DownwardDog said:


> I've known far more people that would take the piss to the extent of 20+ days (if allowed) than people who actually need 3+ days/month off with genuine sickness. So the balance of probability clearly tilts toward a cynical interpretation.


Fine, if you're just speculating in principle on the Internet, but this is a real life situation, happening to a real life person, and it's pretty disrespectful to speculate about them in this way without knowing a LOT more. If nothing else, you may well be encouraging the curiously quiet ajdown to behave even more unpleasantly towards her "on the balance of the probabilities".


----------



## 8ball (Aug 9, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> As an instance of one or two days off - it was an example


 
Yeah, I know. 

But tbf 'food poisoning' is one of those things that at our place (good as they are) is often interpreted as 'raging hangover'.

The one time I had any arsiness was when I had a really arsey boss and I honestly didn't know what was wrong with me and all I could say was 'I feel really weird and can't do anything'.  It went to HR and it seemed there was nothing in the procedures for 'don't knows'. 
It turned out to be a reaction to some medication.


----------



## Winot (Aug 9, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I find that many people are quick to judge on others, yet when pressed on the darkies up the road who brought round some samosas and gave our shitfaced lad a lift home last week, those ones are OK, it's the others, innit.
> 
> Most people are OK, they just let a load of wankers manipulate their thinking cos they really don't want to think hard enough cos when they do they don't like what they see of this world.
> 
> Kill the toffs, kill the politicos; then we can start making a world that MOST people would actually like to live in.


 
What about the toffs that bring round samosas


----------



## Winot (Aug 9, 2013)

sparklefish said:


> At our place, disciplinary action can be started after 5 days sickness in a rolling year. It's down to managers discretion so basically whether they are a wanker or whether you get on with them determines what happens to you.


 
I'm not sure they're within employment law here - my understanding is that sickness should not be used as an excuse for disciplinary action.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 9, 2013)

Winot said:


> What about the toffs that bring round samosas


 

They'll have got their Indian maid to make them. So up against the wall with the fuckers.


----------



## Thora (Aug 9, 2013)

Winot said:


> I'm not sure they're within employment law here - my understanding is that sickness should not be used as an excuse for disciplinary action.


I think only disability and maternity related sickness is protected.


----------



## Winot (Aug 9, 2013)

Thora said:


> I think only disability and maternity related sickness is protected.



You're probably right but my understanding was that the scope of the DDA was quite broad.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 9, 2013)

Winot said:


> You're probably right but my understanding was that the scope of the DDA was quite broad.


 
It is, it covers longstanding but intermittent illnesses and conditions as well as eczema, asthma, and diabetes.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2013)

Winot said:


> You're probably right but my understanding was that the scope of the DDA was quite broad.


 
Equality Act 2010 has now superseded the DDA, but the provisions are largely the same


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 11, 2013)

although whether employers or even GPs understand the concept of a long standing illness as a 'disability' under the terms of the act is questionable.

a couple of years back my (then) employer was trying to sack me for recurrent migraines, and in correspondence with my GP, the GP said he did not consider me to have a disability.

fortunately, a voluntary redundancy scheme then came along and all of this didn't have to be pursued as all concerned came to the conclusion that paying me to sod off was the best option.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 11, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> although whether employers or even GPs understand the concept of a long standing illness as a 'disability' under the terms of the act is questionable.
> 
> a couple of years back my (then) employer was trying to sack me for recurrent migraines, and in correspondence with my GP, the GP said he did not consider me to have a disability.
> 
> fortunately, a voluntary redundancy scheme then came along and all of this didn't have to be pursued as all concerned came to the conclusion that paying me to sod off was the best option.


 

This sounds like me with my period and hormonal issues. 
My female gp (  ) was under the impression that women should just pull their socks up about it as there was nothing they could do. 
That was handy to know when my legs wouldn't even carry me out the front door


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> although whether employers or even GPs understand the concept of a long standing illness as a 'disability' under the terms of the act is questionable.
> 
> a couple of years back my (then) employer was trying to sack me for recurrent migraines, and in correspondence with my GP, the GP said he did not consider me to have a disability.
> 
> fortunately, a voluntary redundancy scheme then came along and all of this didn't have to be pursued as all concerned came to the conclusion that paying me to sod off was the best option.


 
Some seem to better than others, in my experience. 

What angered me the most was that they seemed to think this was something I could control, something I was choosing to do.


----------



## Combustible (Aug 12, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I'm not quite sure where I became the "bad guy" in this conversation? I'm not the one having sick days.


 
I think these might be my favourite sentences of the thread.


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 13, 2013)

So, you've basically no idea what might be going on in her life, or what health issues she may have, have you aj?

Since I came down with my bowel problems two years ago, when I get a chronic relapse, I'm unable to work for a week sometimes. So far this year, I've had three weeks off through these, but there's little a hospital can do despite me being doubled up in pain, extremely fatigued, disorientated, vomiting, diarhoea, etc. All I can do is try and get rest, wait for the steroids to calm things down, etc.

Its upto your place of work to make sure theres adequate cover, resourcing, etc. They should ensure that all their staff are supported, whether that be the person off sick but also colleagues that might pick up that persons work.

Given that you don't know the situation, why not stop and perhaps just have a think for a moment, and try not to be such a judgemental arsehole?


----------



## ajdown (Aug 14, 2013)

Well I've refrained from responding because of all the hostility towards me for daring to ask the question but I thought I'd give this little update.

In the last two weeks, she worked 1 day and a few hours.  The few hours - before she went home - was on the last day before needing to getting a doctor's certificate so it reset to zero and didn't need to get one.

Now she's off on a week's holiday.  Saturday morning she posted pictures on Facebook of her and the family at a café, then Monday morning pictures of them queuing to get into Peppa Pig World with the grandchildren.

I know this week's holiday has been booked for a while but to go from basically 2 weeks off to then have a week's holiday and appear to be miraculously recovered for the Saturday morning, you wouldn't find that just a little strange?


----------



## existentialist (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Well I've refrained from responding because of all the hostility towards me for daring to ask the question but I thought I'd give this little update.
> 
> In the last two weeks, she worked 1 day and a few hours.  The few hours - before she went home - was on the last day before needing to getting a doctor's certificate so it reset to zero and didn't need to get one.
> 
> ...


You haven't just "not responded" to what's on this thread - you haven't even read it properly, or you wouldn't have come out with this heap of bollocks. 

All I'll say is that you don't deserve to be working for an employer as decent as hers. You are a nasty cunt who doesn't give a damn about anyone else except as far as it affects you. And you are clearly incapable of being made to realise this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Well I've refrained from responding because of all the hostility towards me for daring to ask the question but I thought I'd give this little update.
> 
> In the last two weeks, she worked 1 day and a few hours. The few hours - before she went home - was on the last day before needing to getting a doctor's certificate so it reset to zero and didn't need to get one.
> 
> ...


you facebook stalk her, sweaty palms.


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Now she's off on a week's holiday. Saturday morning she posted pictures on Facebook of her and the family at a café, then Monday morning pictures of them queuing to get into Peppa Pig World with the grandchildren.
> 
> I know this week's holiday has been booked for a while but to go from basically 2 weeks off to then have a week's holiday and appear to be miraculously recovered for the Saturday morning, you wouldn't find that just a little strange?


 
How the fuck would you know if she's 'miraculously recovered'? You seem to only be capable of seeing illness in terms of being clear-cut, terminal, or obvious physical incapacity. Thats not how peoples health works.

Seems to me you also need to check those 'Christian' beliefs you sometimes tell us you have.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 14, 2013)

steph said:


> How the fuck would you know if she's 'miraculously covered'? You seem to only be capable of seeing illness in terms of being clear-cut, terminal, or physical incapacity. Thats not how peoples health works.
> 
> Seems to me you also need to check those 'Christian' beliefs you sometimes tell us you have.


He claims to be a Christian? Hahaha, I've known a few "Christians" like him - gives the rest of them a bad name.


----------



## stethoscope (Aug 14, 2013)

Besides, I remember when I went through a bad spell of depression - work-related stress was unbearable and one colleague particularly, but that didnt mean I had to be locked behind closed doors when I was signed off. 

In fact, it was being able to get out, do some stuff with family and friends that allowed me to improve my mental health again and get back to work. If I'd have tried to fight on regardless at that time I probably would have ended up having a full breakdown. Then I would have been off work for even longer.

I was also very guarded at what was shared/known between occupational health, my GP, HR and my colleagues.

Reassuring therefore that we could then have an office busy-body snooping into peoples lives and questioning how ill people really are.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 14, 2013)

I expect that all this sneering superiority ajdown shows towards the world is just compensating for his own felt inferiority. 

Boy, he must feel inferior!


----------



## Santino (Aug 14, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I expect that all this sneering superiority ajdown shows towards the world is just compensating for his own felt inferiority.
> 
> Boy, he must feel inferior!


Having a personal relationship with Christ would make anyone feel inferior. Have you heard what he can do? And he never shuts up about his famous dad.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Well I've refrained from responding because of all the hostility towards me for daring to ask the question but I thought I'd give this little update.
> 
> In the last two weeks, she worked 1 day and a few hours. The few hours - before she went home - was on the last day before needing to getting a doctor's certificate so it reset to zero and didn't need to get one.
> 
> ...


 now you've reared your ugly head, what about reading the thread!? 
you could learn stuff!


----------



## ajdown (Aug 14, 2013)

I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


----------



## Santino (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


Ooh, how provocative! You've enraged me to such a degree! I am hot under the collar at this!


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


 
You're miles too thick to make that work.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Now she's off on a week's holiday. Saturday morning she posted pictures on Facebook of her and the family at a café, then Monday morning pictures of them queuing to get into Peppa Pig World with the grandchildren.
> 
> I know this week's holiday has been booked for a while but to go from basically 2 weeks off to then have a week's holiday and appear to be miraculously recovered for the Saturday morning, you wouldn't find that just a little strange?


 
Just for the record, I am, for instance, a normal fit and healthy man, I don't even feel all that bad from day to day, if at all. However I do have an illness, it does not really show (not even to me most of the time). I have to go for a hospital check up and tests about four times a year (each time, more tests follow straight on). Sometimes I am told to take time off work, take medication and relax, and have some more tests. Nobody would notice there was anything wrong with me, and I certainly don't talk to co workers about it, especially anyone that has an attitude as 'daily mail' as yours.  

Why not give her the benefit of the doubt, if your problem is extra workloads, then that is a management problem not a problem between you and her.

What would Jesus do?


----------



## Santino (Aug 14, 2013)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> What would Jesus do?


Some magic, and then go on about how his dad worked six days a week.


----------



## kabbes (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


 
Do you like being you?  Are you happy?  Does being you make you feel good?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


 does saying that make you sad or happy?
either way it is pretty sad


----------



## trabuquera (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


 
You have in that case missed one major strand - WHICH IS TO YOUR OWN BENEFIT - which is that YOU ARE ENTITLED TO ASK *YOUR BOSS TO REMEDY ANY OVERLOAD OF HER WORK ON TO YOU*. Instead you apparently choose to waste time, and wind yourself up further, by Facebook-stalking her while she's off duty. I think you're just deliberately baiting urban, tbh.


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## stethoscope (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


 
And you still don't have the decency to properly engage with some of the points made.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 14, 2013)

Because the purpose isn't to engage, the purpose is to provoke.


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## existentialist (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown - 

You've learned nothing all the time that you continue to insist that everything should be about fault. 

Your attitude is nothing more than pathetic.


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## Schmetterling (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> Well I've refrained from responding because of all the hostility towards me for daring to ask the question but I thought I'd give this little update.
> 
> In the last two weeks, she worked 1 day and a few hours. The few hours - before she went home - was on the last day before needing to getting a doctor's certificate so it reset to zero and didn't need to get one.
> 
> ...


 
Blubblubblublubblub -> translation -> Bitter!


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 14, 2013)

steph said:


> Besides, I remember when I went through a bad spell of depression - work-related stress was unbearable and one colleague particularly, but that didnt mean I had to be locked behind closed doors when I was signed off.
> 
> In fact, it was being able to get out, do some stuff with family and friends that allowed me to improve my mental health again and get back to work.


Indeed it is certainly part of the CBT approach to actively encourage people with depression to do activities that they feel they can manage, with a mix of achievement based and pleasurable activities. It's called activity scheduling, and it's one of the more evidence based components of CBT for depression. Sometimes people are worried about doing such activities outside of the home in case they get spotted and disbelieved. Reading the OP and ajdown's further contributions, I can see why that would be a concern for some


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## kittyP (Aug 14, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


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## kittyP (Aug 14, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Indeed it is certainly part of the CBT approach to actively encourage people with depression to do activities that they feel they can manage, with a mix of achievement based and pleasurable activities. It's called activity scheduling, and it's one of the more evidence based components of CBT for depression. Sometimes people are worried about doing such activities outside of the home in case they get spotted and disbelieved. Reading the OP and ajdown's further contributions, I can see why that would be a concern for some


 

Indeed. It is exactly because of people like ajdown's attitudes that I am often frightened to go out the house and do stuff that will improve my mental health, in case people think I am a skiver and I am making out that I worse than I am. 
Having opinions like his is dangerous for some others.


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## existentialist (Aug 15, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Indeed. It is exactly because of people like ajdown's attitudes that I am often frightened to go out the house and do stuff that will improve my mental health, in case people think I am a skiver and I am making out that I worse than I am.
> Having opinions like his is dangerous for some others.


And, as ever (think current government) it is those most likely to be harmed by such attitudes that they go gunning for. 

It's despicable. And ajdown cannot fail to know that by now, which is, I expect, the real reason he's keeping a low profile.


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## Lea (Aug 15, 2013)

ajdown said:


> What do people think is a 'reasonable' amount of days sick leave in a year?
> 
> I've had one so far this year, but a colleague of mine has had a lot more and I'm wondering why nothing is being done about it.
> 
> Curious to hera what your experiences are of how much time you (or people in your company) get off sick before action gets taken.


 
Reasonable? What a funny question to ask. If you are sick then you are sick. I've been with my company for over 7 years. During that time I have very rarely taken any sick days off but about 3 years ago I was very ill and had to take off 3 months in one block. Would you consider that unreasonable? Luckily the company I work for were very understanding.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 15, 2013)

Lea said:


> Reasonable? What a funny question to ask. If you are sick then you are sick. I've been with my company for over 7 years. During that time I have very rarely taken any sick days off but about 3 years ago I was very ill and had to take off 3 months in one block. Would you consider that unreasonable? Luckily the company I work for were very understanding.


 
there was probably a talking KFC bucket stalking you on facebook to check wether you were genuinely ill though


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## DotCommunist (Aug 15, 2013)

ajdown said:


> I've learnt more than enough from what I have thread, thankyou, notably that it's all my fault for getting upset for working with a shirker when I could join a commune and knit yoghurt all day holding hands and singing kum-buy-ya in the forests instead of just being another drone in the capitalist system which must be overthrown, comrades.


 

how come you've been in the same position for 16 years and never got a promotion? I'd brush up on the cock-sucking techniques if I were you.


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## Lea (Aug 15, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> there was probably a talking KFC bucket stalking you on facebook to check wether you were genuinely ill though


 You have a point there. Some people noted that I hadn't posted anything during the 3 months that I was off sick. Always a bad idea to post up pictures of yourself partying on FB or Twitter if you say you are off sick.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 15, 2013)

Always a bad idea to friend colleagues on fb. Sod that.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 15, 2013)

Lea said:


> You have a point there. Some people noted that I hadn't posted anything during the 3 months that I was off sick. Always a bad idea to post up pictures of yourself partying on FB or Twitter if you say you are off sick.


Unless you are off sick with stress or other mental health issues


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## Lea (Aug 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Unless you are off sick with stress or other mental health issues


 I suffer from Bipolar Disorder. Thank goodness I didn't start posting strange stuff on FB when I had my last sick leave.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 15, 2013)

What I mean is there is nothing wrong with going to a party on sick leave unless you claim you are in bed or incapacitated in some way


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## Lea (Aug 15, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> What I mean is there is nothing wrong with going to a party on sick leave unless you claim you are in bed or incapacitated in some way


 I would still not post up pictures for colleagues to see. They might criticize and be suspicious. Better to keep to yourself.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 15, 2013)

Lea said:


> You have a point there. Some people noted that I hadn't posted anything during the 3 months that I was off sick. Always a bad idea to post up pictures of yourself partying on FB or Twitter if you say you are off sick.


 

don't agree there sis. As has been stated going out and being a real human being again is very much part of getting away from chronic depression. Sharing your joy on facebook is part of that as well. What else you gonna do, sit at home wanking and crying and avoiding all social media while eyeing up that oh so tempting paring knife? no

Who cares if sad sacks like AJ are stalking on you to try and out you somehow. That sort of fuckwit hasn't the minerals to do else other than cry to the internet about it. Not his business.


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## Lea (Aug 15, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> don't agree there sis. As has been stated going out and being a real human being again is very much part of getting away from chronic depression. Sharing your joy on facebook is part of that as well. What else you gonna do, sit at home wanking and crying and avoiding all social media while eyeing up that oh so tempting paring knife? no
> 
> Who cares if sad sacks like AJ are stalking on you to try and out you somehow. That sort of fuckwit hasn't the minerals to do else other than cry to the internet about it. Not his business.


 Well you can party but just don't bother publicising it. What's the point of publicising it? You have a good time with friends.That's enough.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 15, 2013)

If you work in the public sector the right wing media are very interested in stories about workers living it up whilst on sick leave.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 15, 2013)

Lea said:


> Well you can party but just don't bother publicising it. What's the point of publicising it? You have a good time with friends.That's enough.


you're getting better and want the world to know?


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## DotCommunist (Aug 15, 2013)

Lea said:


> Well you can party but just don't bother publicising it. What's the point of publicising it? You have a good time with friends.That's enough.


 
yeah, I cab see what you are driving at here and I am the same myself. But for many folks having a badboy night out is followed by publishing photos and talking about who-puked-on-who etc. We should not have to be shielding ourselves from crit just because wankers like the OP will use it as ammo. Sigh. Well 'shouldn't have to' is different from 'doing it just in case' I suppose


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 15, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> If you work in the public sector the right wing media are very interested in stories about workers living it up whilst on sick leave.


Tbf there's certain jobs where you can get in a lot of trouble from posting photos of living it up (too much) when you're still attending work!


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## Citizen66 (Aug 15, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Tbf there's certain jobs where you can get in a lot of trouble from posting photos of living it up (too much) when you're still attending work!



Completely agree. I was a bit at a loss over the earlier advice of "yeah, just post them up, part of your recovery!" 

Companies want model workers. Things that would pass on here as a bit light and lame could be viewed as bringing a company into disrepute if it fell into meddlesome hands such as dickhead apprentice copper in the op.


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## Corax (Aug 15, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Always a bad idea to friend colleagues on fb. Sod that.


 
Yep.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 15, 2013)

Corax said:


> Yep.



I would gladly forgo it. The problem is the majority of the world appears to have bought into it, including 99% of my mates. A lot of events, be it parties or activism, are organised through it nowadays so sadly I need an account.


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## equationgirl (Aug 15, 2013)

I don't post any work stuff on facebook, not even 'I've had a crap day'.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I don't post any work stuff on facebook, not even 'I've had a crap day'.



Me neither, but I post political stuff which surely could be viewed as equally bad?


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## tufty79 (Aug 15, 2013)

killer b said:


> _sorry i wasn't in yesterday AJ, but it were like someone had slaughtered a pig in my cunt._


i'm nicking that. sounds far better than 'i woke up to a scene from Carrie between my legs'


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## kittyP (Aug 15, 2013)

Lea said:


> I would still not post up pictures for colleagues to see. They might criticize and be suspicious. Better to keep to yourself.


 

I am not even being expected to go back to work really but I still don't let anyone post any pics of me on FB full stop now, even just walking in the park, coz I worry people will think I am making it all up. 
Ajdown's attitude exacerbates this kind of thing.


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## equationgirl (Aug 15, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Me neither, but I post political stuff which surely could be viewed as equally bad?


 
Depends. I have no work colleagues as fb friends to limit damage.


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## killer b (Aug 15, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> i'm nicking that. sounds far better than 'i woke up to a scene from Carrie between my legs'


been good for my like count that post. I were of two minds whether to post it cause I worried it might have been a bit crude. 

Must've forgotten where I was...


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## kabbes (Aug 15, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I would gladly forgo it. The problem is the majority of the world appears to have bought into it, including 99% of my mates. A lot of events, be it parties or activism, are organised through it nowadays so sadly I need an account.


 
What kind of mates can't send you an email?


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

kabbes said:


> What kind of mates can't send you an email?


 
Divs if you ask me.  The type who, if you tell them that you won't be on FB for a while (in spite of still having email, texts etc), act like you're about to go offgrid.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 16, 2013)

kabbes said:
			
		

> What kind of mates can't send you an email?



The type that think everything can and should be conducted over Facebook. You'd be surprised at the sort of people who are fully sold on to the starbucks of the internets.


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## existentialist (Aug 16, 2013)

Don't assume it's just FB, though. I had some lowlifes track me down on here and cause some potentially life-altering RL harm (if it wasn't for the fact that they had a) got enough facts wrong, b) blatantly lied in their communications, and c) retracted their claims under pressure from Certain Urbanites, they *would* have caused serious harm). I thought I'd been reasonably sensible as far as anonymity was concerned, but hadn't thought that anyone would go to the trouble of assembling snippets of information from various sources to put a picture together just to make trouble for little old me.

And their schtick was very much the same "don't you think this is terrible?" kind of garbage that the OP is trying oh so very hard to manufacture.

In fact, every time I read his contributions on here, and think back to the nasty, petty, vicious troublemaking I found myself on the receiving end of, it boils my piss. I note, too, that he hasn't had the courage or honesty to actually justify his views - just to keep throwing out a little more of the poison he started with.

Urban, on the other hand, has been a credit to itself - I don't think there's one respondent on this thread who has agreed with the OP on his nasty, shit-stirring, muckraking rubbish. No doubt to him that'll be the Urban monothought clique at work, lefties sticking it together against the Lone Righteous Voice. Just one thing more for him to be the Lone Voice on, then. Good.


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## kabbes (Aug 16, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> The type that think everything can and should be conducted over Facebook. You'd be surprised at the sort of people who are fully sold on to the starbucks of the internets.


 
Maybe its just my contrary nature, but that is precisely why I shut down my Facebook account and let my friends know in no uncertain terms that I no longer had one and if they wanted me to know things, they had to actually tell me those things.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 16, 2013)

kabbes said:
			
		

> Maybe its just my contrary nature, but that is precisely why I shut down my Facebook account and let my friends know in no uncertain terms that I no longer had one and if they wanted me to know things, they had to actually tell me those things.



Yet here you are posting on urban.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 16, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Yet here you are posting on urban.


Eh? Urban is a bulletin board. Why would shutting down his FB account oblige kabbes to shut down Urban75?


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## Citizen66 (Aug 16, 2013)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Eh? Urban is a bulletin board. Why would shutting down his FB account oblige kabbes to shut down Urban75?



FB can function as a (albeit ineffectual) bb also. my gripe is that there's better systems but the answer isn't to spit my dummy and close my fb account and expect everyone to keep me updated on stuff. Having an fb account isn't that much different to having a u75 one. all that gets on my wick is that so many can't see beyond it.


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Yet here you are posting on urban.


 
Urban isn't FaceAche.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 16, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> FB can function as a (albeit ineffectual) bb also. my gripe is that there's better systems but the answer isn't to spit my dummy and close my fb account and expect everyone to keep me updated on stuff. Having an fb account isn't that much different to having a u75 one. all that gets on my wick is that so many can't see beyond it.


Yes, but most people use U75 just as a BB and do all their social organisation by email/text or, yes, FB.
Only a couple of my mates are on here, so it would be crap for organising, say, a birthday party


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## kabbes (Aug 16, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> FB can function as a (albeit ineffectual) bb also. my gripe is that there's better systems but the answer isn't to spit my dummy and close my fb account and expect everyone to keep me updated on stuff. Having an fb account isn't that much different to having a u75 one. all that gets on my wick is that so many can't see beyond it.


This makes no sense to me at all.  I have no RL friends here other than those I have made on here.  I do no socialising based on relationships here other than community-run events.  I am here because I choose to be here for its own sake, not as a proxy for other communications.  

FB, on the other hand, was something that RL people expected me to check so that I could do RL things and know about RL events (such as one of them having a child, ffs).  I wasn't on it for its own sake at all.  I didn't have any friends on there that I didn't already have IRL.

Expecting my actual friends to actually communicate with me rather than generically broadcast to the world is hardly "spitting the dummy".  It's recognising that the fundamental nature of the way we were communicating was uncomfortable to me and I wanted to change it.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

when I was off sick from work earlier this year with mental health problems I deleted all people from work off my facebook. This was because I was so worried that one of them would be a cunt like AJ and use one of the very few times that I did go out of my fucking bedroom to get me in trouble. I'm pretty sure those people think I don't like them because we don't speak as much as we used to. Since I've been back I've been more focused on getting better and doing my work than the social side of work. While it's no big loss the effect has been that I've lost work mates and potential sources of support and funtimes at work. But with cunts like AJ about it's better to be safe than sorry.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 16, 2013)

kabbes said:
			
		

> This makes no sense to me at all.  I have no RL friends here other than those I have made on here.  I do no socialising based on relationships here other than community-run events.  I am here because I choose to be here for its own sake, not as a proxy for other communications.
> 
> FB, on the other hand, was something that RL people expected me to check so that I could do RL things and know about RL events (such as one of them having a child, ffs).  I wasn't on it for its own sake at all.  I didn't have any friends on there that I didn't already have IRL.
> 
> Expecting my actual friends to actually communicate with me rather than generically broadcast to the world is hardly "spitting the dummy".  It's recognising that the fundamental nature of the way we were communicating was uncomfortable to me and I wanted to change it.



Fair enough. it does have its uses such as networking for activism etc but the bb abilities of it are crap but people stick to it like glue.


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## existentialist (Aug 16, 2013)

What is also sad is that so much of the government and media narrative has been about denigrating the sick that even people who are temporarily poorly run the risk of being - or feeling - criticised just for being unable to work. We are building a culture where it is supposedly better to infect colleagues or harm our long term health by struggling into work than look after ourselves properly by taking the time off we need to recover properly. 

For all we know, ajdown's colleague is a victim of this - instead of just taking a few months off, she may feel compelled to get into work on the days she feels *just* well enough to, and not on those where she physically can't. 

I'd wish some (curable) chronic illness on ajdown if I thought he might be capable of learning from the experience, but I think it'd be futile.

ETA: "Lemsip culture", damn those fucking advertisements.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 16, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Indeed. It is exactly because of people like ajdown's attitudes that I am often frightened to go out the house and do stuff that will improve my mental health, in case people think I am a skiver and I am making out that I worse than I am.





MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> when I was off sick from work earlier this year with mental health problems I deleted all people from work off my facebook. This was because I was so worried that one of them would be a cunt like AJ and use one of the very few times that I did go out of my fucking bedroom to get me in trouble.


These two posts make me very sad  And not a little angry


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 16, 2013)

What also makes me angry is not being able to multi-quote anymore without a lot of tedious messing around


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## Corax (Aug 16, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I would gladly forgo it. The problem is the majority of the world appears to have bought into it, including 99% of my mates. A lot of events, be it parties or activism, are organised through it nowadays so sadly I need an account.


 
Be less sociable, and less happy about going outside and/or talking to people.  It's no problem then.


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

Corax said:


> Be less sociable, and less happy about going outside and/or talking to people. It's no problem then.


 
Even if you often don't go outside or talk to people face to face, the reliance of others on FB is a nuisance - the tedious fuckers kinda sorta forget how to bloody well use email!


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## Corax (Aug 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Even if you often don't go outside or talk to people face to face, the reliance of others on FB is a nuisance - the tedious fuckers kinda sorta forget how to bloody well use email!


 
Too much sociability Greebs.  Ease off on that, and you won't mind.


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## Schmetterling (Aug 16, 2013)

existentialist said:


> *What is also sad is that so much of the government and media narrative has been about denigrating the sick that even people who are temporarily poorly run the risk of being - or feeling - criticised just for being unable to work.* We are building a culture where it is supposedly better to infect colleagues or harm our long term health by struggling into work than look after ourselves properly by taking the time off we need to recover properly.
> 
> For all we know, ajdown's colleague is a victim of this - instead of just taking a few months off, she may feel compelled to get into work on the days she feels *just* well enough to, and not on those where she physically can't.
> 
> ...


 
I was talking to my friend about this the other day.  In the last six months particularly I have noticed a lot of people with walking aids.  Maybe that is only because I am noticing but I do think one sees more; I have the nasty suspicion, and this is quite sad really, that more people are using an aid to visually communicate that they are in need of support/aid.  Am I making sense?  I think they feel under pressure to justify/demonstrate.  It is so degrading and it also makes me angry because a lot of people have problems accepting themselves as being disabled and would rather go about without that signifier.

My son's half-sister who has cerebral palsy has lost her disabled badge because she can fucking walk for 200 yards...  And she probably tried really hard to show off just how well she can walk because she has spent eight years want to walk as well as everyone else!


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

Corax said:


> Too much sociability Greebs. Ease off on that, and you won't mind.


 
I'ts not for myself - it's for VP.  And I do mind.  Sorry, way too serious for this thread.


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## Corax (Aug 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I'ts not for myself - it's for VP. And I do mind. Sorry, way too serious for this thread.


 
Wut?


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## Corax (Aug 16, 2013)




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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

Schmetterling said:


> I was talking to my friend about this the other day. In the last six months particularly I have noticed a lot of people with walking aids. Maybe that is only because I am noticing but I do think one sees more; I have the nasty suspicion, and this is quite sad really, that more people are using an aid to visually communicate that they are in need of support/aid. Am I making sense? I think they feel under pressure to justify/demonstrate. It is so degrading and it also makes me angry because a lot of people have problems accepting themselves as being disabled and would rather go about without that signifier.<snip>


 
Yes, you are making sense - I noticed the difference firsthand.  IME you can be almost falling over with pain or fatigue and not one person will offer you a seat or any other help (unless you ask or they know somebody with an invisible disability), but use a crutch or stick of any kind and they're far more likely to offer.  

Maybe that explains why the woman I let in front of me (without her needing to ask) in Lidl this week was so effusive.  She hadn't got a walking aid but was limping a bit and looking withdrawn and greyish with pain or extreme tiredness.  Maybe you can fake a limp, but faking that colour etc is difficult.


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

Corax said:


> <'Rax rolling again>


 
Sweetie, this is getting old.  Older than the lucky condom carried round by a 50 year old virgin.


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## Corax (Aug 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Sweetie, this is getting old. Older than the lucky condom carried round by a 50 year old virgin.


 
Maturing, like a fine wine...

Fuckin lazy effort this week admittedly.  I've been feeling like shite though - black dog.


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

Corax said:


> Maturing, like a fine wine...
> 
> Fuckin lazy effort this week admittedly. I've been feeling like shite though - black dog.


 
Yebbut you still did it.  You still managed to be your usual irritating Friday self.  That's got to count for something, right?


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## Corax (Aug 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Yebbut you still did it. You still managed to be your usual irritating Friday self. That's got to count for something, right?


 
You rock x


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## jacoba (Sep 30, 2015)

My score is 928 for the year, so far.... like I said to my boss, points win prizes. Those single hangover duvet days are the worst.


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