# Best Old Who Episodes



## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

I only picked one episode from each doctor. (well two from Tom Baker, cause he was my favourite and also I mucked up making the poll and needed a filler). 

I'll add that these are that in Hartnell and Troughtons cases I only picked the two episodes that I've ever seen them in.


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## fucthest8 (Aug 26, 2014)

I refuse to vote until you learn how to spell Pertwee. I let it go on the other thread, but, standards.


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## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

fucthest8 said:


> I refuse to vote until you learn how to spell Pertwee. I let it go on the other thread, but, standards.



Fuck. 



Sorry.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2014)

8den said:


> I only picked one episode from each doctor. (well two from Tom Baker, cause he was my favourite and also I mucked up making the poll and needed a filler).
> 
> I'll add that these are that in Hartnell and Troughtons cases I only picked the two episodes that I've ever seen them in.


just to make clear that these weren't episodes but stories broadcast in a number of weekly episodes eg curse of fenric and unearthly child each comprised of four parts.


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## cesare (Aug 26, 2014)

8den said:


> Fuck.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry.


I thought you were doing it deliberately ... I thought the finger of suspicion was pointing at him


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## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

cesare said:


> I thought you were doing it deliberately ... I thought the finger of suspicion was pointing at him





Pickman's model said:


> just to make clear that these weren't episodes but stories broadcast in a number of weekly episodes eg curse of fenric and unearthly child each comprised of four parts.



Well fine I should have said serials. Or Plotlines. Or Arcs. Jesus.


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## fucthest8 (Aug 26, 2014)

This is going well then


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## danny la rouge (Aug 26, 2014)

8den said:


> Or Arcs.


 Sorry for what I am about to do.

The modern way of using the term "story arc" irritates me.  It had a perfectly good meaning before, as the structure of a plot. 

Now it has been appropriated to mean "a multi-episode subplot".

Annoys me.


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## cesare (Aug 26, 2014)

My comment was related to Pewtree!


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## DotCommunist (Aug 26, 2014)

Remembrance of the Daleks

Genesis of the Daleks

Greatest show in the Galaxy

Battlefield

Curse of Fenric

Terror of the Autons

Mawdryn Undead


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## DotCommunist (Aug 26, 2014)

Pyramids of Mars if you are stoned, ditto Hapiness Patrol


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## DotCommunist (Aug 26, 2014)

Ark in Space and Trial of a Time Lord


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## Idris2002 (Aug 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Remembrance of the Daleks
> 
> Genesis of the Daleks
> 
> ...



As recited around the campfire by the Pictish bards of old.


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## fucthest8 (Aug 26, 2014)

However, since, 8den, you at least now aware that the man's name wasn't Pewtree, I shall now vote.

I vote   "What? You left out X? This is a outrage!"

The X being Planet of the Spiders - Jon Pe*rtw*ee. Proper scared me, plus Elisabeth Sladen.


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## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

fucthest8 said:


> This is going well then



This is going exactly I suspected it would go. I hope in twenty pages time we're arguing on Dotc's first crush on Adric.


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## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

fucthest8 said:


> However, since, 8den, you at least now aware that the man's name wasn't Pewtree, I shall now vote.
> 
> I vote   "What? You left out X? This is a outrage!"
> 
> The X being Planet of the Spiders - Jon Pe*rtw*ee. Proper scared me, plus Elisabeth Sladen.



It's not just a mispelling but I make one of my favourite doctors have the name of a particularly pungent type of vegetation. Which begs the question, how bad must have Worzel Gummidge smelt?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 26, 2014)

Spearhead
City of death
Remeberance
Tomb of Cybermen

Humm, its quite a struggle, I love them but they are mostly pretty shit.


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 26, 2014)

Spearhead from Space. 

The Sea Devils

Day of the Daleks

Genesis of the Daleks


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 26, 2014)

Oh and I have a special fondness for the utter shit one with the movalans in. . . . oh and that one where they pull the doctors arms and legs off. . . . oh oh, and what is the one where Sarah Jane falls to her death at the end of one ep, but next week she lands safely on the scaffold? Brilliant.


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## maomao (Aug 26, 2014)

Pewtree's a cooler name than Pertwee. It sounds like a tree that's fallen over and can be sat on. Always hated Pertwee anyway.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 26, 2014)

pewtree makes him sound like a cheap engraved tankard


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## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> pewtree makes him sound like a cheap engraved tankard


or a police operation


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## cesare (Aug 26, 2014)

The Daemons.


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## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

For all there faults. The pandorical speech and I am the oncoming storm are just fucking awesome.


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## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

And the trap weeping angels speech. In fact the finest moments of New Who are that speech and the kid in Human Nature.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 26, 2014)

I liked the 'when a good man goes to war' v/o


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## 8den (Aug 26, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I liked the 'when a good man goes to war' v/o



Not as good as the punishment dealt to the family in Human Nature. IMO.


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## CNT36 (Aug 27, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Oh and I have a special fondness for the utter shit one with the movalans in. . . . oh and that one where they pull the doctors arms and legs off. . . . oh oh, and what is the one where Sarah Jane falls to her death at the end of one ep, but next week she lands safely on the scaffold? Brilliant.


I think it's from Genesis of the Daleks.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Aug 27, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> I think it's from Genesis of the Daleks.


Which one?


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## CNT36 (Aug 27, 2014)

When they're building the Thal rocket. End of episode 2 according to some wiki.


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 27, 2014)

i think a doctor who film where they remade one of the classic old stories would be a blast - imagine spearhead or genesis with proper production values - and a new audience. They did it b4 with will hartnels first two dalek stories.


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## Quartz (Aug 27, 2014)

I liked the search for the key of time best. How can you possibly diss the end of the first adventure of that arc when it has a guest appearance by Cthulhu?


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## JTG (Aug 27, 2014)

Genesis, Spearhead, Earthshock, Androzani, City of Death, Pyramids, Fenric, Survival, Ark In Space...


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 27, 2014)

Ark in Space gets a few mentions i notice. I remember it being pretty scary - but one of the worst monster costumes ever: a bloke  draped in green bubble wrap. Blue peter would have been too embarassed to do that.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 27, 2014)

No love for Earthshock?

The E Space Trilogy?

The stuff with Turlough?


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

im completely green to Dr who apart from watching some as a kid which i have no proper memory of (apart from fear of cybermen).... ive had a go at the last two new dr whos and lasted 2 minutes so im going to try some old ones instead - found a torrent for the complete Tom Baker ones - looking forward to it - bubble wrap mutants do it for me


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## Epona (Aug 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> im completely green to Dr who apart from watching some as a kid which i have no proper memory of (apart from fear of cybermen).... ive had a go at the last two new dr whos and lasted 2 minutes so im going to try some old ones instead - found a torrent for the complete Tom Baker ones - looking forward to it - bubble wrap mutants do it for me



I'm a huge fan and have been watching it since the early '70s, but I just want to let you know there is no shame in just deciding you don't like it and it's not for you.  Don't be herded into the crowd if you don't want to be there!


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

Epona said:


> I'm a huge fan and have been watching it since the early '70s, but I just want to let you know there is no shame in just deciding you don't like it and it's not for you.  Don't be herded into the crowd if you don't want to be there!


i love Blakes 7 so I think i'll be alright - 70s era stuff is the one for me i think so Tom Baker is a good spot to start.. I watched Tom Baker/ Revenge of the Cybermen last night and enjoyed it plenty enough...loved the masks of the Vorus


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

I also enjoy shonky old sci fi from 'the day' so I watched some episodes of Sapphire and Steel. Urg. Rubbish. Joanna Lumley and a man from UNCLE. no. And slooooow.


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## Epona (Aug 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> i love Blakes 7 so I think i'll be alright - 70s era stuff is the one for me i think so Tom Baker is a good spot to start.. I watched Tom Baker/ Revenge of the Cybermen last night and enjoyed it plenty enough...loved the masks of the Vorus



Oh you'll probably be fine then, except Blake's 7 was all rebels on the run which has a bigger appeal for some people.  I love Blake's 7.  The ending was shit though, I should have realised at that point that no series ever has a good ending.
Yeah skip the Pertwee (Doctor Who influenced by James Bond) stuff and start with Tom Baker, you'll feel right at home.


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> I also enjoy shonky old sci fi from 'the day' so I watched some episodes of Sapphire and Steel. Urg. Rubbish. Joanna Lumley and a man from UNCLE. no. And slooooow.


i think it speeds up - the first Assignment "The Staircase " runnign at 140 minutes or so was a bit of a mistake according to the writer - I cant rememebr the excuse now, but it would to do with a change in the format half way through writing. Assignment 2 on the Railway Station has some excellent genuinely scary moments, but could do with a trim too...I hear the later ones are a bit snappier but i havent made it that far yet... its good on a cold winters day i think


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

Epona said:


> Yeah skip the Pertwee (Doctor Who influenced by James Bond) stuff and start with Tom Baker, you'll feel right at home.


 
Toms got some good maniacal facial expressions...something i struggle with in Dr Who are the sidekicks - i get a bit creeped out by the idea of the young women sidekicks - but the two in the one I watched yesterday weren't _too_ bad


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## Epona (Aug 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> Toms got some good maniacal facial expression...something i struggle with in Dr Who are the sidekicks - i get a bit creeped out by the idea of the young women sidekicks - but the two in the one I watched yesterday weren't _too_ bad



Have you ever read Tom Baker's autobiography?  What an extraordinary and at the same time extraordinarily depressing life he has had.  He was a monk in a silent order before doing some stage stuff and then getting to play the Doctor, and later married (and a bit later was divorced from) one of those sidekicks (Lalla Ward, who played one of the versions of Romana), and battled with alcohol.
He seems to have found some balance and stability and contentment in his later years, which is a good thing.


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## JTG (Aug 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> Toms got some good maniacal facial expressions...something i struggle with in Dr Who are the sidekicks - i get a bit creeped out by the idea of the young women sidekicks - but the two in the one I watched yesterday weren't _too_ bad


Harry Sullivan is one of the less alluring female sidekicks, it's true


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

Epona said:


> Have you ever read Tom Baker's autobiography?  What an extraordinary and at the same time extraordinarily depressing life he has had.  He was a monk in a silent order before doing some stage stuff and then getting to play the Doctor, and later married (and a bit later was divorced from) one of those sidekicks (Lalla Ward, who played one of the versions of Romana), and battled with alcohol.
> He seems to have found some balance and stability and contentment in his later years, which is a good thing.


i had no idea about that - will read up a bit - sounds like an interesting man


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## Epona (Aug 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


> i had no idea about that - will read up a bit - sounds like an interesting man



Extremely interesting, he's done a mix of manual labour, Dominican Monk, stage acting, and he IS Doctor Who for a whole generation of people.  He doesn't say anything about his marriage to Lalla in his autobiography except that he was married to her for a brief while, it's kind of sad, the whole autobiography is kind of sad.

However my main memory of him will always be when I was working in Southampton Row and coming back from lunch with a colleague - I don't tend to get overexcited by such things, but my colleague of a similar age to me (in our 30s and old enough to know better) and also a Who fan grabbed my arm and started jumping up and down and saying "IT'S THE DOCTOR!!!" loud enough that people 3 streets away would have heard it. Tom Baker spotted us, gave us his trademark grin, and boomed in a deep baritone "Good Afternoon, Ladies".


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

Epona said:


> trademark grin, and boomed in a deep baritone "Good Afternoon, Ladies".


love it


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## Chilli.s (Aug 28, 2014)

The Silurians, The Autons, The Green Death and any Dalek ones.

Only ever seen these shows the once though.


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 28, 2014)

Epona said:


> Yeah skip the Pertwee (Doctor Who influenced by James Bond) stuff and start with Tom Baker, you'll feel right at home.



Wrong wrong and thrice wrong. Pertwee was the best doctor - and with some of the best stories. Check out Spearhead from Space, Terror of the Autons, Day of the Daleks, The Sea Devils - plus you get the original - and best -  master.


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## JTG (Aug 28, 2014)

And the Brig!


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

from the pictures i think Pertwee looks pretty classy - im impressed by a velvet blazer


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## Epona (Aug 28, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> Wrong wrong and thrice wrong. Pertwee was the best doctor - and with some of the best stories. Check out Spearhead from Space, Terror of the Autons, Day of the Daleks, The Sea Devils - plus you get the original - and best -  master.



Don't get me wrong, I love Pertwee.  But if you want adventures in time and space, that era did not provide it - he was mostly stuck on earth (a deliberate decision by the producers to cut set and location costs) and just had loads of gadgets.  And cars.
He was really good, he was also the first Doctor that I watched.
BUT he wasn't really a typical Doctor, travelling through time and space, at least not compared to ones before him and ones since.  IMO it was a bit of a cold war thing.  Loved Lethbridge-Stewart though.
Definitely watch the Pertwee episodes, but don't start with them IMO.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

Pertwee was the Gentleman Doctor. Venusian Aikedo!

also him vs Delgado's Master was great. Ham n Cheese.

they even have a swordfight at one point


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## Epona (Aug 28, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Pertwee was the Gentleman Doctor. Venusian Aikedo!
> 
> also him vs Delgado's Master was great. Ham n Cheese.
> 
> they even have a swordfight at one point



Delgado was THE Master, there really has been no other since.
If he hadn't died he'd have been offered that role for years.


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 28, 2014)

"A most good natured wine, slightly impudent but not cynical"


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## Nine Bob Note (Aug 28, 2014)

Quartz said:


> I liked the search for the key of time best



The Stones of Blood is my officially my favourite from the series though I adore everything about the Pirate Planet as well and could happily quote the Captain all day long, in fact, I may do just that. Poll's rubbish, get it sorted or I'll have your bones bleached! 

If I must choose (and there are still a lot that I haven't seen, and I've never listened to audio of the lost episodes) I'll go with (in no particular order and excluding the two I've already mentioned) Destiny, Robots, Caves, Remembrance, Five, Genesis, Aztecs, Assassin and Varos


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## Nine Bob Note (Aug 28, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> "A most good natured wine, slightly impudent but not cynical"



Ditch the sideburns, Jilly...


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## Chz (Aug 28, 2014)

City of Death is fun, but it's overrated as one of the best.

My _personal_ favourite is the very Agatha Christie "Robots of Death".


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

Chz said:


> My _personal_ favourite is the very Agatha Christie "Robots of Death".


the service droid done it!


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## Bungle73 (Aug 28, 2014)

Anthony Ainley was my Master. He's who I grew up with. Thought he was good



Epona said:


> Oh you'll probably be fine then, except Blake's 7 was all rebels on the run which has a bigger appeal for some people.  I love Blake's 7.  The ending was shit though


It wasn't supposed to be an ending. It was written and filmed before it was announced the show was cancelled.

They were supposed to be bringing it back, but nothing seemed to come of it. Paul Darrow was involved for a while, but he dropped out.


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## A380 (Aug 28, 2014)

The Green Death:

That is all.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Anthony Ainley was my Master. He's who I grew up with. Thought he was good
> 
> 
> It wasn't supposed to be an ending. It was written and filmed before it was announced the show was cancelled.
> ...




there is the probably apocryphal tale of how terry nation wrote a crossover script where the B7 lot encountered the Dalek menace


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 28, 2014)

The ending of B7 was shit?

GET OUT!


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 28, 2014)

ska invita said:


>



A sinister peak into Iain Duncan Smith's mind.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 28, 2014)

Say what you like about Ace, but I always liked the way she called the Dcot 'professor'.


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## Nine Bob Note (Aug 28, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> there is the probably apocryphal tale of how terry nation wrote a crossover script where the B7 lot encountered the Dalek menace



In the place of the Andromedans at the end of series two. Sounds like it was genuinely proposed, but not one took it seriously


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

A380 said:


> The Green Death:
> 
> That is all.


looks great

im giving The Tomb of the Cybermen w Patrick Troughton a try...


Spoiler








a bit racist and fair bit sexist...perhaps to be expected on the BBC in 1967 i guess...i know its on a different level but Kubrick was making 2001 at the same time as this...
apart from Patrick Troughton theres some seriously hammy acting and a very ropey script...but its still got some atmosphere going for it especially once the cybermen start running about..some good music and sounds fx, the cybermen mummble like a jewsharp through a vocoder... supposedly its "one of the finest surviving offerings from the b/w era".... in which case roll on the 70s.....

i guess the fact so many of these episodes were lost and rediscovered somewhat against the odds makes them feel that bit more special to the Who faithful


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## Chilli.s (Aug 28, 2014)

I can remember a Cyberman one from the 60s with Troughton. Had the Cybermen bursting out of manhole covers up into the streets. Least I think thats it, 60s memories are a bit blurry.

The giant maggot one, from 70s is clearer, and has my personal favourite assistant.


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## ska invita (Aug 28, 2014)

still makes me laugh


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## elbows (Aug 28, 2014)

I'll skip all the usual gushing I do in these threads over various well know Tom Baker ones, and jump straight to my appreciation for some of the aspects of The Sun Makers. I've posted clips from it before but usually without response, maybe someone will bite this time!


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## ska invita (Aug 29, 2014)

looks  

I posted this in the wrong DW thread:
All the B&W episodes up here http://www.dailymotion.com/user/theclassicdoctor/4
ive got 30 odd hours to go before this 59GB Tom Baker thing gets downloaded so....

also the Tv Movie The Enemy Within is up here http://tune.pk/video/590102/doctor-who-the-enemy-within


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## discobastard (Aug 29, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> "A most good natured wine, slightly impudent but not cynical"


Awesome thread thank you 

One of my favourite Who lines ever.  EVER.

ETA: "A most good natured wine, slightly impudent but not cynical"

Day of the Daleks I believe.  Not a bad story I recall, drags a bit in places but some good moments of the characters enjoying some of the more ordinary pleasures in life, which you didn't often see.


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 29, 2014)

discobastard said:


> Awesome thread thank you
> 
> One of my favourite Who lines ever.  EVER.
> 
> Day of the Daleks I believe.  Not a bad story I recall, drags a bit in places but some good moments of the characters enjoying some of the more ordinary pleasures in life, which you didn't often see.



I really like it. Ogrons! Terrorist/Freedom fighters from the future! The plot of terminator!


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## Kaka Tim (Aug 29, 2014)

elbows said:


> I'll skip all the usual gushing I do in these threads over various well know Tom Baker ones, and jump straight to my appreciation for some of the aspects of The Sun Makers. I've posted clips from it before but usually without response, maybe someone will bite this time!




I remember really enjoying that story as a kid. A most excellent villain.


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## discobastard (Aug 29, 2014)

For me:

*John Pewtree*
Inferno - 7 parter, but one that I found quite watchable in (almost) one go. Hilarious UNIT alter egos.
Claws of Axos - heavy on the psychedelic, great when stoned.  Very funny civil servant buffoonery.
Ambassadors of Death - not watched in full yet but quite unsettling for a Pewtree story,
Death to the Daleks - pretty crap and poor budget, and a mineral called Parrinium (um, perineum?), but I quite enjoy the really crap 'death games' at the end - Pewtree doesn't really play it too convincingly - he was basically phoning it in by then (beautifully described by Philip Sandifer in his Tardis Eruditorum blog).

*Tim Barker*
Terror of the Zygons - awesome - that's all you need to know.  Scotland done convincingly in Sussex.  Great story.  Effects?  Crap Skarasen puppet but the spaceship exploding at the end was a BBC special effects forced perspective triumph.
Planet of Evil - proper psychological scary and *amazing* jungle set design for the time.
Seeds of Doom - some scary stuff (even if the effect weren't that great), and some proper realistic thuggery.
The Deadly Assassin - crap studio stuff (and some appalling acting), but a decent story and worth it for episode three alone, the one on location that Mary Whitehouse complained about - scary clowns, syringes, poison darts, trapped on a railroad, trying to drown each other - what more do you want?
Robots of Death and Talons of Weng Chiang - just great period stories (whether past or future - stuff the BBC does well).

IMO, there's some great stuff post '77, but this lot is classic for me.


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## discobastard (Aug 29, 2014)

PS - posted this in another thread, but I have the following duplicate DVDs - if anybody wants them please PM with title and happy to post out for free:

Tomb of the Cybermen
Robots of Death
Claws of Axos

There're all original discs, not special editions, but worth a watch anyway if you don't have 'em.

Oh, and Ark in Space is great too.  Amazing set and amazing acting (for its time), even if it was bubble wrap that was the enemy.  Like I said on another thread earlier - as a 3-4 year old, you didn't need to suspend disbelief - it was incredible because it was Dr Who, and it was YOUR WORLD.


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## discobastard (Aug 29, 2014)

_"I'll skip all the usual gushing I do in these threads over various well know Tom Baker ones, and jump straight to my appreciation for some of the aspects of The Sun Makers. I've posted clips from it before but usually without response, maybe someone will bite this time!"

"I remember really enjoying that story as a kid. A most excellent villain"_

Fucked this post up - edited to say that I have The Sun Makers - I'll dig out this weekend and have a proper watch.

Ditto 'Image of the Fendahl' - got some proper scary stuff going on there too.


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## Chilli.s (Aug 29, 2014)

discobastard said:


> PS - posted this in another thread, but I have the following duplicate DVDs - if anybody wants them please PM with title and happy to post out for free:
> 
> Tomb of the Cybermen
> Robots of Death
> ...


 
Yes please, I would love to re watch these with my kid. I'd be happy to post them on afterwards to anyone else.


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## discobastard (Aug 29, 2014)

Chilli.s said:


> Yes please, I would love to re watch these with my kid. I'd be happy to post them on afterwards to anyone else.


Nice idea! PM me your address and I'll get em in the post over the next few days.


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## Chilli.s (Aug 29, 2014)

You star! PM on the way.


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## JTG (Aug 29, 2014)

Chilli.s said:


> I can remember a Cyberman one from the 60s with Troughton. Had the Cybermen bursting out of manhole covers up into the streets. Least I think thats it, 60s memories are a bit blurry.
> 
> The giant maggot one, from 70s is clearer, and has my personal favourite assistant.


The Invasion - Cybermen in London, steps of St Pauls etc


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## ska invita (Sep 3, 2014)

Just watched the bubblewrap episodes, Ark in Space - not a bad one - heres the best of the bubblewrap action:


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## ska invita (Sep 3, 2014)




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## ska invita (Sep 4, 2014)

I also watched The Sontaran Experiment - as with other episodes i really love the masks from this era - express lots of character and some good facial movements (nasty tongue action in this one) - id imagine these Sontaran would be scary as a kid, but theres something quite lovable about them, especially this guy with his demented grin. Okay he's a sadistic torturer, but the smile is a winner

i love the helmet reveal at 0.13


its not easy getting sadomasochist torture themes in to kids tv, but i think they did a pretty good job of it


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## Kaka Tim (Sep 4, 2014)

ska invita said:


> I also watched The Sontaran Experiment - as with other episodes i really love the masks from this era - express lots of character and some good facial movements (nasty tongue action in this one) - id imagine these Sontaran would be scary as a kid, but theres something quite lovable about them, especially this guy with his demented grin. Okay he's a sadistic torturer, but the smile is a winner
> 
> i love the helmet reveal at 0.13
> 
> ...




As a kid, I remember lynx taking off his helmet for the first time in 'the time warrior' - . you were expecting something human - but instead there was this potato headed monstrosity who then sticks out a revolting lizard like tounge. Cue theme tune and a delighted 7 year old.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 4, 2014)

I once tried on a legitimate Sontaran helmet and Cyberman helmet at the 20th aniversary fest at Longleat.


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## ska invita (Sep 4, 2014)

discobastard said:


> *Tim Barker*
> Terror of the Zygons - awesome - that's all you need to know.  Scotland done convincingly in Sussex.  Great story.  Effects?  Crap Skarasen puppet but the spaceship exploding at the end was a BBC special effects forced perspective triumph.


just watched this....sorry discobastard, im not sure i can go along with awesome...yes it looked like scotland but the story was pretty silly...especially after watching Genesis of Daleks, which was well up to the hype, genuinely moody (felt quite Blakes 7-ish), and although ive seen the daleks on tv a couple of times here and there for the first time i even managed to suspend disbelief to believe they were a real threat! Terry Nation on form.

In general i like it a lot more if they're not on earth i think. Still not sure about all the UNIT stuff.


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## discobastard (Sep 4, 2014)

ska invita said:


> just watched this....sorry discobastard, im not sure i can go along with awesome...yes it looked like scotland but the story was pretty silly...especially after watching Genesis of Daleks, which was well up to the hype, genuinely moody (felt quite Blakes 7-ish), and although ive seen the daleks on tv a couple of times here and there for the first time i even managed to suspend disbelief to believe they were a real threat! Terry Nation on form.
> 
> In general i like it a lot more if they're not on earth i think. Still not sure about all the UNIT stuff.


Fair enough. UNIT wasn't for everyone. I just thought the Zygons were a great 'monster'. I hope you'd agree that the costumes and sets looked great?

I've not watched Genesis for a good long time, agree it's fantastic though. Esp as I had the LP version which was v atmospheric as a kid (and also the only way of really replaying any of the TV series, years before any of the video releases). 

What other Baker ones have you watched?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2014)

discobastard said:


> Fair enough. UNIT wasn't for everyone. I just thought the Zygons were a great 'monster'. I hope you'd agree that the costumes and sets looked great?
> 
> I've not watched Genesis for a good long time, agree it's fantastic though. Esp as I had the LP version which was v atmospheric as a kid (and also the only way of really replaying any of the TV series, years before any of the video releases).
> 
> What other Baker ones have you watched?


im going through the Tom Baker in order (just downloaded the lot of TBs) - im completely green to Dr Who - first time im watching any of it - need a bit of escapism atm and its perfect for that. enjoying it a lot.

Zygons were....alright I guess...thing is, as the Dr says "how do you plan to take over the world - there are six of you"  which is exactly what i was thinking! How? With the (cyborg) loch ness monster...aaaahh right, okay. It was always a bit stretched. They looked pretty good but danger-wise they never seemed much of a threat.

Thing is with shows like this its all good, and even in the silliest moments its possible to enjoy just as much as a more quality episode.

I'm slightly warming to the UNIT thing, but it might take a bit more time before i come around

next up, Planet of Evil!   sounds scary!


----------



## discobastard (Sep 4, 2014)

ska invita said:


> I also watched The Sontaran Experiment - as with other episodes i really love the masks from this era - express lots of character and some good facial movements (nasty tongue action in this one) - id imagine these Sontaran would be scary as a kid, but theres something quite lovable about them, especially this guy with his demented grin. Okay he's a sadistic torturer, but the smile is a winner
> 
> i love the helmet reveal at 0.13
> 
> ...



Yeah the old Sontarans managed to be both creepy and ridiculous at the same time. Time Warrior is a lot of fun.  

I thought the new ones were a bit over sanitised. Strax is a great character but a bit too cheesy for my liking.


----------



## discobastard (Sep 4, 2014)

Btw, can I just say again, fucking love this thread [emoji4] [emoji106]


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## ska invita (Sep 4, 2014)

discobastard said:


> Yeah the old Sontarans managed to be both creepy and ridiculous at the same time.


i think the grin really captures the idea of sadistic pleasure - and that wheeled robot device with the handcuffs on wires is a great space-aged SM touch
too often killing is a stern-faced activity - makes a change to see someone taking real pleasure in it - its scarier for it i think
but yeah - a touch of ridiculousness there too for sure


----------



## ska invita (Sep 4, 2014)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> oh oh, and what is the one where Sarah Jane falls to her death at the end of one ep, but next week she lands safely on the scaffold? Brilliant.


 yeah, that was one cliffhanger i really thought, how are they going to get out of this? i shouldve known better....


----------



## discobastard (Sep 4, 2014)

ska invita said:


> im going through the Tom Baker in order (just downloaded the lot of TBs) - im completely green to Dr Who - first time im watching any of it - need a bit of escapism atm and its perfect for that. enjoying it a lot.
> 
> Zygons were....alright I guess...thing is, as the Dr says "how do you plan to take over the world - there are six of you"  which is exactly what i was thinking! How? With the (cyborg) loch ness monster...aaaahh right, okay. It was always a bit stretched. They looked pretty good but danger-wise they never seemed much of a threat.
> 
> ...


Planet of Evil has *great* sets and v atmospheric IMO. Lots of parallels with The Forbidden Planet. Hope you enjoy and let me know what you think [emoji4]

Pyramids of Mars after that?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Sep 4, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/episodeguide/daemons/detail.shtml


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## Horas (Sep 4, 2014)

blakes 7 is better than who.


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## discobastard (Sep 5, 2014)

Horas said:


> blakes 7 is better than who.


Thanks for your considered input. Very happy to hear your views on why that is the case. I too have been known to enjoy some Blake's Seven. Why not start a thread about it and let the two series peacefully co-exist [emoji4]


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 5, 2014)

Pyramid of mars is awesome. Sutekh is an awesome villain.

Curiously Sarah makes reference to1980 being her native time, yet she merry the doctor in the seventies!


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## CNT36 (Sep 5, 2014)

Can of worms - tardis.wikia.com/wiki/UNIT_dating_controversy


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## CNT36 (Sep 5, 2014)

From the above -



> In _The Day of the Doctor_, Kate Stewart asks for one of her father's files; she says it may be filed under the 70s or the 80s "depending on the dating protocol", a clear reference to the UNIT dating controversy. No more is said on screen to explain this so-called protocol or how it works.



I laughed out loud in the cinema. I was the only one. Cue some bemused looks.


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## ska invita (Sep 6, 2014)

Planet of Evil - enjoyed a lot - as you said DB wonderful set and some nice effects with the energy monster - the Jekyll and Hyde thing dragged on a little but its a strong story. My favourite moment was when he starts his transformation and looks in horror in the mirror

...i've felt _just like that_ after a bit too much weed on occasion 

Pyramid of Mars I enjoyed a lot: pretty gothic theme of Edwardian gents and egyptology, but pulled off well with good acting and some nice special effects. Lumbering mummies added some good b-movie vibes. Memorable episode

Android Invasion was a bit of a dud bar an okay finale.

Just starting Brain of Morbius...another gothic rehash but it looks like a good one - some solid acting so far
is this the greatest intro to a Dr Who story ever? So good had to upload it:
EDIT: BBC have blocked the video already


ETA: The Radio Times has particularly good reviews of all the episodes
http://www.radiotimes.com/doctor-who-episode-guide-fourth-doctor-tom-baker


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 6, 2014)

I'm one story ahead: just started the Seeds of Doom.

And who should turn up...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm one story ahead: just started the Seeds of Doom.
> 
> And who should turn up...


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 6, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>



Ere, Del. About that automatic threshing machine you sold me....


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 6, 2014)

First, a big thanks to Discobarstard for sending me DVDs of old Who episodes, me and The Kid have enjoyed The Tomb of the Cybermen over the last couple of days. A real trip down memory lane.
So as promised I'll offer to pass it on to the first responder. Who wants it?


----------



## Bluesree (Sep 6, 2014)

The Talons Of Weng Chiang has to be the best. Surely? For the dialogue alone. The acme of the Holmes Hinchcliffe era.


----------



## IC3D (Sep 6, 2014)

.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 6, 2014)

New Who has nothing on this, still 

I particularly enjoyed, around the time Baker moved on, the incidental music becoming almost exclusively synthetic.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Sep 6, 2014)

Bluesree said:


> The Talons Of Weng Chiang has to be the best. Surely? For the dialogue alone. The acme of the Holmes Hinchcliffe era.


I like that one a lot but it does have some dodgy Chinese archetypes, including "yellowing-up" IIRC?

I think my ultimate favourite old Who is Inferno for the fascist Brigadier/Brigade Leader.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 7, 2014)

Just finished Seeds of Doom. Epic shoggoth inspired action!

Now for the weird Mandragora Helix, which i have never seen before!


----------



## ska invita (Sep 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Just finished Seeds of Doom. Epic shoggoth inspired action!
> 
> Now for the weird Mandragora Helix, which i have never seen before!


All plant eaters must die!
Good one that - slightly stretched for 6 episodes though, but supposedly it was the season finale. I guess they're not designed to be watched back to back. The first part even had some genuinely naturalistic acting in it! I loved it when the plant man played his computer organ for the plants...

Interesting article here btw with some Dr Who history in it
The Role of Pacifism and Gun Violence on “Doctor Who”
http://www.artboiled.com/2012/the-role-of-pacifism-and-gun-violence-on-doctor-who/

i noticed in this Seeds episode that its pointed out by Sarah Jane that the Dr will hold a gun but never fire it ("But they dont know that " says the Dr), and in the previous story Brain of Morbius I think one of the coven describes the time lords as pacifists.


----------



## CNT36 (Sep 7, 2014)

ska invita said:


> All plant eaters must die!
> Good one that - slightly stretched for 6 episodes though, but supposedly it was the season finale. I guess they're not designed to be watched back to back. The first part even had some genuinely naturalistic acting in it! I loved it when the plant man played his computer organ for the plants...
> 
> Interesting article here btw with some Dr Who history in it
> ...


 Doesn't the Doctor commit some cold blooded murder in Morbius. Kills the chap patching him up. Solon?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 8, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> Doesn't the Doctor commit some cold blooded murder in Morbius. Kills the chap patching him up. Solon?


i dont remember that particularly, but I dont think there's full on consistency across all episodes - he definitley throws the odd punch here and there but it stuns someone rather than kills them. generally speaking this Dr at least seems like someone who avoids violence and is motivated by bringing peace...
im no expert, i only started watching a couple of weeks back

ETA: just checked the ending of Morbius and i think i fell asleep in the last episode


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 8, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> Doesn't the Doctor commit some cold blooded murder in Morbius. Kills the chap patching him up. Solon?


No he renders him unconscious, though it looks like he's killing him. Morbius I think kills Solon, or maybe his servant!


----------



## ska invita (Sep 8, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> No he renders him unconscious, though it looks like he's killing him. Morbius I think kills Solon, or maybe his servant!


I just watched the ending - turns out i fell asleep when they started talking about chemical formulas to make the cyanide - chemistry was always my worst subject - i know nothing to this day - just the mention of a chemical formula knocked me out!

Anyhow, it was some kind of cyanide fumes that are released and Solon looks pretty dead to me from breathing it in - cyanide is pretty synonymous with death. All the story write ups online seem to think he killed him with the fumes too.

The one defense is that he was really going after Morbius, but I think this is a death you have to chalk up on his sheet.


----------



## CNT36 (Sep 8, 2014)

Cyanide is how he murders one of the bad guys in the Two Doctors.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> Cyanide is how he murders one of the bad guys in the Two Doctors.


serial killer


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 9, 2014)

a genocide-doer and a mass murderer. I can't remember how he escaped his trials conclusion but peri peri left and married an alien. He should have another trial, but not by timelords. You could see capaldi milking the ghost of malcom tucker in any kind of alienz court scene.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 9, 2014)

From the Hand of Fear:

"Hello reception? That dark haired young woman where is she? Wearing pink striped overalls. Yes pink striped overalls...just like Andy Pandy!"

(-a doctor, not THE doctor)


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 9, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> a genocide-doer and a mass murderer. I can't remember how he escaped his trials conclusion but peri peri left and married an alien. He should have another trial, but not by timelords. You could see capaldi milking the ghost of malcom tucker in any kind of alienz court scene.


Peri died, she didn't just leave!


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Now for the weird Mandragora Helix, which i have never seen before!


 
5 screenshots from this - in places its such good looking tv


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 9, 2014)

The end of Mandragora is a bit anticlimactic



Spoiler: By Demnos!



Dr pops up disguised as one of the monks and says something and everything's ok!



Just burned through Hand of Fear which has a shitty ending as well, but Sarah's departure, especially after her death, which i'd not seen before, was quite poignant to watch. 

I'll skip Deadly Assassin having watched it relatively recently, and it's off to meet Leela, I'm guessing!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 9, 2014)

ska invita said:


> 5 screenshots from this - in places its such good looking tv
> 
> View attachment 60858 View attachment 60859
> View attachment 60860
> View attachment 60862 View attachment 60861


TBF, when you consider they were made in the 70's way before digital fx, the effects are not as ridiculous.

Though an open mind helps


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## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> TBF, when you consider they were made in the 70's way before digital fx, the effects are not as ridiculous.
> 
> Though an open mind helps


i love the effects  - i prefer them to most modern day tv - i find it easier to suspend my disbelief (kind of), and at certain moments these kind of shows are genuinely beautiful... the only thing that ive seen recently on a par is Noel Fieldings Luxury Comedy thing, though he's blatantly influenced by 70s tv


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## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> The end of Mandragora is a bit anticlimactic





Spoiler



I think it was all in those wires that he wrapped around the plinth


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 9, 2014)

I like modern effects, but i prefer creative use of cg, not just reliance on it.

But relying on ingenuity to get around limitations inspires creativity and forces the viewer to make the effort. This is why muppet Yoda trumps cg yoda every day.


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## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

100% - thats whats great about the Noel Fielding thing - theyve really been creative with the computer and green screen - shame it doesnt happen more often
ETA: + plus they make real costumes - handywork is always good


----------



## 8den (Sep 9, 2014)

Just out of curiosity do people like old who out of nostalgia or do they think 60s/70s/80s Who stands up to modern telly?


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## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

8den said:


> Just out of curiosity do people like old who out of nostalgia or do they think 60s/70s/80s Who stands up to modern telly?



Theres no nostalgia for me as i didnt watch this or blakes 7 first time around...for me its because it stands up - id like to watch the new Who but it looks really shit to me - ive tried but it feels a lot more like kids tv to me, or a bad soap. Sorry, dont mean to talk badly of it, i know people like it... this 70s stuff is more like theatre and for some reason it works a lot better for me, despite its faults.

Also I really struggle with CGI....

I dont think all 70s 80s TV stands up better, not by a long way, but there seems to be something about the BBC fantasy and sci-fi that does - generally true of the majority of sci-fi and fantasy movies of that time I think.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

What about you 8den?
I do like to go back to different times with film and music - people thought differently about the world than they do now, and for me its not so much nostalgia for that time as nice to tap in to that more down to earth and i think less consumerist time (roughly speaking)


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## 8den (Sep 9, 2014)

ska invita said:


> What about you 8den?
> I do like to go back to different times with film and music - people thought differently about the world than they do now, and for me its not so much nostalgia for that time as nice to tap in to that more down to earth and i think less consumerist time (roughly speaking)



as I said my favourite old who from my childhood is Gensis of the Daleks, that image of Baker holding the wires debating the destruction of the Daleks is my quintessential old who moment. But a few years ago I tried watching "city of death", and it was literally unwatchable. I wonder if the Prisoner or The Avengers stand up to the test.


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## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

When I tried Prisoner a few years back I found it a  bit too meandering, but might give it another shot. My patience levels are very high these days  
I saw a great black and white Avengers not long ago, and a not so great colour one.


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## Dr_Herbz (Sep 9, 2014)

8den said:


> as I said my favourite old who from my childhood is Gensis of the Daleks, that image of Baker holding the wires debating the destruction of the Daleks is my quintessential old who moment. But a few years ago I tried watching "city of death", and it was literally unwatchable. I wonder if the Prisoner or The Avengers stand up to the test.





ska invita said:


> When I tried Prisoner a few years back I found it a  bit too meandering, but might give it another shot. My patience levels are very high these days
> I saw a great black and white Avengers not long ago, and a not so great colour one.



I'm in the process of watching The Prisoner. It doesn't have the same appeal it did back then.
I've watched a few of the Avengers and the New Avengers, and they're still quite watchable.
The Professionals...


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## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> The Professionals...


There are some good Minder episodes...of all 70s comedy I think Porridge has held up the best


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## 8den (Sep 9, 2014)

ska invita said:


> this 70s stuff is more like theatre and for some reason it works a lot better for me, despite its faults.
> .



Interesting. I get the theatre comment and see it.

I loved the Prisoner last time I saw it (I was 19) (I think my wife gave me the definitive DVD boxed set for my 30th birthday, and I never watched it (ooophs). I loved it then, but I think that it would not hold up after the last decade and a half, and biit

I think the point I'm trying to make and that no one will disagree with, is that there was a massive leap in quality in tv over the last decade and a half.

Dr Who in the 70s/80s form would be incomprehensible to my son in five years time. (He's only 2 now)

The timing, the plotting, is so staged and meandering.

It's not just Doctor Who, I watched the original Survivors a few years ago, and it's basically a post  apocalyptical version of "The Archers" (seriously there's a 2 1/2 minute conversation about crop rotation around episode 3 of the 1st series)


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Sep 9, 2014)

ska invita said:


> There are some good Minder episodes...of all 70s comedy I think Porridge has held up the best


Minder wasn't three bad, and Porridge was excellent but George Cole and Ronnie Barker were cracking actors.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

I don't have kids but I've wonder about that too...

I dont know if you've seen any of the films by Andrei Trakovsky? Solaris and Stalker spring to mind as we're talking about sci-fi, but his films in general are incredibly slow, and I enjoy getting lost inside them - not saying its easy, but its always worth it. I'd hope that people will always turn back to films like that and get something out of them. They might struggle with the pace even more than back then, but thats all part of it. Or a more accessible equivalent is 2001 - near enough the best space-set film made in my opinion - but still not an easy watch by modern standards .....theres no reason why the next generation shouldnt be able to appreciate 2001 as much as anyone then or now.

To me this kind of 70s TV is at some sort of a parallel to those kinds of films...its the cheaper, more mass version of what was going on at the highest levels of film... and if people can still get into Tarkovsky then old shows like Blakes 7 will always have an audience. Maybe!


Theres definitely some amazing writing in TV these days, things like the Wire and True Detective (which ive only seen a few episodes of), great writing and acting, and the key thing is it feels serious and adult.... i was talking about all these new superhero movies (which i really cant stand) with a friend the other day and he was saying films have been given over to kids (any kind of adult rating means a loss of market), whilst TV has become the adult story telling medium. I think theres truth in that. TV is better but adult films from hollywood have been sacrificed to that.

I think also back in the 70s theatre was still central to all acting, and TV and film were both extensions of the theatre - not just in the UK but across Europe. I think a lot less so in the US. Part of all that staging and dialogue that sits weirdly comes from that. But it also benefits from that theatrical way of writing scripts, which I can get in to. 70s TV also had lots of plays for TV, and script writers were known and revered...


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Minder wasn't three bad, and Porridge was excellent but George Cole and Ronnie Barker were cracking actors.


 
definitely.... also Porridge has some brilliant scripts...did you ever see an episode called A Nice Night In, which is just them in their cell from 7pm lock in till morning is amazing...funny and moving - theatre really - and predates Seinfeld by some years with the idea of a show where nothing really happens...


----------



## 8den (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> I'm in the process of watching The Prisoner. It doesn't have the same appeal it did back then.
> I've watched a few of the Avengers and the New Avengers, and they're still quite watchable.
> The Professionals...



Agreed. I think the Prisoner lasted so well as for years there was nothing like it,anti establishment, surreal and dark. Nothing in the 70s and 80s touched it on uk TV. The Xfilles was in my opinion its inheritor. (And only after you get into the lone gunmen episodes


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

the prisoner must have been amazing acid come down tv in 1967/8


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

One thing Dr Who still wins on is the best opening credit sequence for any tv show ever! - the Tom Baker opening is great but the original black and white one burning white light down the tube is amazing


and the music of course


----------



## 8den (Sep 9, 2014)

ska invita said:


> I don't have kids but I've wonder about that too...
> 
> I dont know if you've seen any of the films by Andrei Trakovsky?[\quote]
> 
> ...


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Sep 9, 2014)

ska invita said:


> definitely.... also Porridge has some brilliant scripts...did you ever see an episode called A Nice Night In, which is just them in their cell from 7pm lock in till morning is amazing...funny and moving - theatre really - and predates Seinfeld by some years with the idea of a show where nothing really happens...


I have to admit to having watched them all, at least twice, and that was indeed a very good episode. It takes a good writer to pull off something like that



ska invita said:


> One thing Dr Who still wins on is the best opening credit sequence for any tv show ever! - the Tom Baker opening is great but the original black and white one burning white light down the tube is amazing
> 
> 
> and the music of course




That opening sequence was amazing for its time. I think it's the reason I started watching it.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2014)

8den said:


> I respectful disagree


i hear what you're saying...nice to chat about it


----------



## discobastard (Sep 10, 2014)

8den said:


> Just out of curiosity do people like old who out of nostalgia or do they think 60s/70s/80s Who stands up to modern telly?


It's late and so I haven't read in full or absorbed all of the comments since, but I think as I said a page or two back, while you *can* try and compare the two, it is very different if you saw the originals in the cultural context in which they were first broadcast.  They had such an impact on me when I was young (I was born in 71 and remember Genesis as one of my first genuine TV experiences and I was genuinely hiding behind the sofa - well the cushions on the sofa at least).  I'll never experience that again because of everything I've experienced since.

Also, the medium of TV in those days had a different visual and narrative language.  I saw a documentary recently that said that the reason 3D hasn't yet taken off properly is that writers and directors haven't really worked out how to use it as a 'language' yet to help add to the story beyond some 'woooaahh' visual effects.  We had different expectations in those days and we didn't know what we didn't know.  George Lucas started to change that I think with Star Wars in '77 - and Ridley Scott with Alien - but that was the big screen. (It's worth noting that I'm a great fan of Who from the 70's though I'm not really a sci-fi fan per se - never been into Star Wars/Trek or anything else really - always preferred Brit TV).

So it's pure folk memory and the connection to my early youth, which had me almost in pieces when I saw the 50th anniversary episode at the BFI last November.  That was the first time new Who (or anything) made me feel anything like the thrill I did when I was a child.

If you know old Who, and are interested, then I urge you to look at Philip Sandifer's Tardis Eruditorum.  He's written an essay on every single story, which illuminates the cultural context of each as well as weaves in the politics of the production itself and some very interesting insights on budgets, the actors, story influences and the challenges they faced.  It sounds heavy, but it's not really.  And it's worth dipping in to read his commentaries on the stories discussed above.  You might not agree with everything he says but I've really enjoyed reading the Pertwee/Baker essays.

Here's the Genesis entry:

http://www.philipsandifer.com/2011/10/face-of-devil-himself-genesis-of-daleks.html

I think they help to put into perspective why it's not possible to just ask whether new or old Who is 'better'.

That's no disrespect to 8den's original question btw (which is actually two questions - whether you like it out of nostalgia AND whether it stands up to modern telly).  Whether it stands up - I think it more than does without question - in the context in which I saw it, in which it was made, and in which I still enjoy it now.  As for nostalgia, hell yes, that's a huge and wonderful factor.  For all of which I am emphatically unapologetic 

ETA: I'm talking here about the era I love, which was Pertwee/Baker 70's - the Barry Letts/Philip Hinchcliffe productions when the series enjoyed it's greatest ratings.  I confess to not having watched huge amounts of the first two Doctors, and the mid 80's productions are probably worth a separate discussion (partly due to it being post Star Wars and the advent of digital effects - and the fact that I had by then discovered booze and girls).


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 10, 2014)

A lot of 70s era tv is still good precisely _because_ it was restricted in terms of set and special effects - so they had to rely more on good scripts, good actors and imaginative staging/filming. Also i think the competition for rating was less fierce so they could take more chances. I watched some of the old _Colditz _a couple of years ago and a lot of it was absolutely gripping  intelligent drama. Old dr who is a mixed bag - they were churning it out on a very low budget and sometimes it shows, but the best stuff still stands up (although you do have to suspend disbelief with some of the special effects).


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 10, 2014)

I'm reminded of Stewart lee's contribution to Screenwipe in one episode. He compared The Stones (iirc) to Skins lamenting the attitudes found in the latter for those in the former.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2014)

i feel the same way as Stewart above, though maybe its not fair to compare Children of the Stones with Skins - the're not really equivalent shows...but unfortunately there arent equivalent shows to Children of the Stones. Is old Dr Who equivalent to the new one even?

My impression of childrens/young peoples TV now is its much more in tune with what they actually want to see...kids go absolutely insane for shows like Secret Garden, all those Pixar movies, Dr Who is really popular.... with a lot of 70s kids TV it felt like adults writing shows that they thought kids might like, but it was all a bit of a guess, and there was definitely a lot of dark and adult themes in them....peoples memories of a lot of these shows is that they were scared as kids to watch them....

...also maybe its me, but with a lot of these 70s shows i saw at the time, im not sure i really understood what was going on half the time....by comparisson modern kids tv spells everything out much clearer and I dont think are any way near as scary - seems like its trying to be more uplifting and inclusive and empowering etc

Thats just my impression. I dont know why, but I think its good to scare kids! Never did me any harm etc...

*Dr Who intro is a case in point - genuinely scary from teh b+w ones right up to the 80s - the modern one has no tension, no psychedelic power, nothing - its been health and safetied into submission

Tame


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 10, 2014)

The problem with the intro isn't the graphic, it's the ott music - just like the show. The music is unsubtle and overbearing. BBC has received criticism of that, but as usual they don't listen.


----------



## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

gah now I have to torrent that Changes, as if I didn't have enough torrents on the go


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 10, 2014)

8den said:


> Agreed. I think the Prisoner lasted so well as for years there was nothing like it,anti establishment, surreal and dark. Nothing in the 70s and 80s touched it on uk TV. The Xfilles was in my opinion its inheritor. (And only after you get into the lone gunmen episodes



I remember my mum staying up late to watch repeats of the Prisoner in the 1980s.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 10, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> gah now I have to torrent that Changes, as if I didn't have enough torrents on the go



I can burn you a copy of _the changes_ on DVD if u want.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 10, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> I can burn you a copy of _the changes_ on DVD if u want.




that'd be champion, pm incoming


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## ska invita (Sep 13, 2014)

ive been on this Tom Baker Dr Who kick the last couple of weeks or so and its starting to seep into my brain, and ive had a thought or two on the night bus home i wanted to share...

my impression of TB is that he was, on the whole, a character in tune with the 70s post hippy generation. Broadly pacifist, cerebral, slightly bugged out from all the transcending space and time activities he gets up to...










...seems to me as his run goes on his ego is growing - im curious to see how this dovetails into the thatcher era and on into the next doctor...
anyhow, that resonance with his era might be what makes these shows so classic and lasting... i wonder if he was taken as a counterculture figure at all at the time...

his slightly erratic, verging on unlikeable behaviour is a complete breath of fresh air compared to most screen heroes - no wonder he's bugging out considering the life he leads <and thank god theres no attempt at redemption and psychoanalysis - its all just out there as is.



...in the episodes im watching atm Leela has come on board, and i have to say i find her skimpy dressing uncomfortable. Sarah Jane changed costumes - Leela, stuck in her garbs, is definitely on the exploited spectrum, but whats kind of interesting is Tom Baker's Doctor slightly standoffish brusk attitude with her - that makes it slightly more bearable and stops it getting too pervy.

As an aside, in Robots of Death, a classy story for sure, i really liked the excellent eyebrow-pencil run wild cosmetic work going on
  



More of his pacifism in this episode too:
" I never carry weapons. If people see you mean them no harm, they never hurt you. Nine times out of ten."


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## ska invita (Sep 13, 2014)

oh good, Leena's got a new outfit


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## discobastard (Sep 13, 2014)

ska invita said:


> oh good, Leena's got a new outfit



Cannae see the image sadly.  Which story you got up to?


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## ska invita (Sep 14, 2014)

its a picture of Leena in a _very_ puffy Victorian number with matching tie and silly hat - from Talons of Weng Chiang... an enjoyable story

uploading the pic in case that helps


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## discobastard (Sep 14, 2014)

ska invita said:


> its a picture Leena in a _very_ puffy Victorian number with matching tie and silly hat - from Talons of Weng Chiang... an enjoyable story
> 
> uploading the pic in case that helps
> 
> View attachment 61070


Yeah that's a great story.  A good example of what differentiates old Who from new Who.  Time to develop the characters, some good old freaky evil shit.  Except the giant rat obviously..

Horror of Fang Rock comes after I think - quite claustrophobic and another one with a more dignified outfit.


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## ska invita (Sep 14, 2014)

discobastard said:


> ...and another one with a more dignified outfit.


oh good! that makes things more comfortable... as i said already theres a real distance between the Dr and Leena - ive read people say it was personal from TB, but I think its there in the script and direction, and rightly so as it would be a bit creepy otherwise - im starting to really like their slightly offish chemistry...TB patronising her and often having a dig, and the actress who plays Leena manages to bring some dignity to the character which could be a real cheap turn in the wrong hands.


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## PursuedByBears (Sep 14, 2014)

I really liked Leela in her first stories but IIRC she got turned into a screamer and lost all the dangerous edge she had.


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## ska invita (Sep 14, 2014)

ahh thats a real shame


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## PursuedByBears (Sep 14, 2014)

Sorry to spoil it for you!  

I think the actress got pissed off with her character's direction and left, is that right?


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## ska invita (Sep 14, 2014)

i hope she did if thats what went down


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## discobastard (Sep 14, 2014)

I think the scripts were still pretty good from then on, though the story in which she left was pretty duff. But they had a load of production difficulties.


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## ska invita (Sep 14, 2014)

talking scripts, from Talons:
"It's a floater, all right. You've got it, guv." A Dickensian crone (Patsy Smart with her teeth out - "Ghoul" in the credits) strains to see as a constable fishes a corpse from the Thames with a boat hook. "On my oath!" she gasps. "You wouldn't want that served with onions. Never seen anything like it in all my puff. Ugh! Make an 'orse sick, that would."


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## gentlegreen (Sep 14, 2014)

A380 said:


> The Green Death:
> 
> That is all.


Indeed. Giant maggots, rogue plastic products....
Or the Autons come to that.

That or the Silurians - for which his quasi-West Country accent was very appropriate.

I was 13 years old and watching on a 21 inch TV in black and white.
Properly scary.

Maybe the daftest Pertwee one was the giant spiders in the crypt of a church when they were using a *Buddhist *mantra. Pre-Internet it was years before I was able to find out what "Om, mani padme hum" actually meant.


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 14, 2014)

ska invita said:


> ive been on this Tom Baker Dr Who kick the last couple of weeks or so and its starting to seep into my brain, and ive had a thought or two on the night bus home i wanted to share...
> 
> my impression of TB is that he was, on the whole, a character in tune with the 70s post hippy generation. Broadly pacifist, cerebral, slightly bugged out from all the transcending space and time activities he gets up to...
> 
> ...


It's like HR Geiger outfitted the miner's strike!


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 14, 2014)

ska invita said:


> its a picture of Leena in a _very_ puffy Victorian number with matching tie and silly hat - from Talons of Weng Chiang... an enjoyable story
> 
> uploading the pic in case that helps
> 
> View attachment 61070



...that I am now watching! 

Robots of Death was surreal! Effecive in a strangely pantomime way. 

Not sure about Leela - or rather Louise Jameson.


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## ska invita (Oct 17, 2014)

nice article on 70s scary kids sci-fi + theres a BFI season 
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/oct/17/growing-up-science-fiction-michael-newton


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## gentlegreen (Oct 17, 2014)

Perhaps  too much of a detour, but this thread made me google for something that moved me back in the day.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 17, 2014)

Someone pointed out to me that in Blakes 7 Blake is framed as a paedophile, but only the audience know that. His crew, who while crims are just thieves etc never ask him if he actually is a nonce, so presumably they are fine to be captained by a nonce. It was a different time


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## Awesome Wells (Oct 17, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> Someone pointed out to me that in Blakes 7 Blake is framed as a paedophile, but only the audience know that. His crew, who while crims are just thieves etc never ask him if he actually is a nonce, so presumably they are fine to be captained by a nonce. It was a different time


In a teatime SF show you wanted the hero to be questioned by Operation Yewtree? You tit!


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## ska invita (Oct 17, 2014)

Of course Blake was innocent you bastard 




or was he?


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 15, 2014)

Sylvester McCoy is awesome.


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## discobastard (Apr 3, 2015)

http://wifeinspace.com/

This is worth a look for lovers of Classic Who.


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## ska invita (Apr 12, 2015)

k9 is shit


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## CNT36 (Apr 12, 2015)

I watched City of Death Friday night. I thought it was pretty good. I like the way they never really bothered with big cliffhangers. Funny in places too.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2015)

ska invita said:


> k9 is shit


k9 was always fucking wank, I hate it more than pertwee's comedy yellow twatmobile. My dream is to see k9 in the Robot Wars arena against sgnt bash and sir killalot


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## ska invita (Apr 12, 2015)

am halfway through the tax grudge baker/ sunmakers at the moment ~ pretty good for this era, but theres something a bit off about the whole chemistry


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## ginger_syn (Apr 13, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> k9 was always fucking wank, I hate it more than pertwee's comedy yellow twatmobile. My dream is to see k9 in the Robot Wars arena against sgnt bash and sir killalot


Lay off bessie, that beautiful little car is what got me into Dr who, I was 6 and it could drive itself, I still remember how it made me feel  however I'm with you on the matter of the tin dog.


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## discobastard (Sep 3, 2019)

Quick note to say (didn't want to stick this in the new Who threads) that Terrance Dicks passed away very recently.  One of the mainstays of classic Who.  Great script editor, wrote some great scripts of his own and of course taught so many kids to read books through being one of the most prolific writers of the Target book novelisations (really important in the days when you couldn't watch it on catchup TV!). 

A real legend.  RIP Terry.


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## ginger_syn (Sep 3, 2019)

He will be widely mourned by fandom RIP.


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## Kaka Tim (Sep 6, 2019)

discobastard said:


> Quick note to say (didn't want to stick this in the new Who threads) that Terrance Dicks passed away very recently.  One of the mainstays of classic Who.  Great script editor, wrote some great scripts of his own and of course taught so many kids to read books through being one of the most prolific writers of the Target book novelisations (really important in the days when you couldn't watch it on catchup TV!).
> 
> A real legend.  RIP Terry.



ah - go well terrance dicks. 
i loved his dr who paperbacks - well written as well. and yes they were first proper books i ever read.


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 6, 2019)

In my H opinion:

Terror of the Autons
Pyramid of Mars (deftly sidestepping Genesis )
Arc of Infinity (a personal favourite - Androzani is amazing though)
Revelation of the Daleks (DJ Alexei!)
Curse of Fenric


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## krtek a houby (Sep 6, 2019)

Pyramids of Mars scared the shit out of me as a kid. Genuine hide behind sofa stuff.


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