# British Oi! and the 'anti-politics' music scene



## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

A couple of my friends who I consider pretty sound keep posting videos of very dodgy looking bands in my facebook feed. I had a look at them and they are all part of something called 'British Oi!' (basically, plodding 80s style 'street' punk sometimes with a more classic rock sound, sometimes with some crap metal-ish riffs). Bands like Skinfull, Crashed Out, Pressure 28 and Close Shave etc.

Now a lot of the lyrics are innocuous and about football, fighting, drinking and being a skinhead but there is also a common theme of 'we hate all politics' which seems to only mean being anti-_red _in practice. They have slogans like 'Oi! aint Red' but I can't find anything overtly anti-fascist/nazi. These bands seem happy to share stage with known fascists too.

There appears to be plenty of friendship/association with known fascists and dodgy bands who definitely are fascist on the 'scene' but nothing openly fascist/nazi directly attributed to these 'britsh oi!' bands.

Someone suggested it may be because the hardcore fascist rock/punk scene 'Blood and Honour'  is at a very low-ebb in the UK that this is the only way these bands could make it as most promoters and labels would not touch openly fascists bands.

Anyway, maybe someone more in touch with the music scene like Trev HAGL may know more...anyone know anything?


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## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

pressure28 is dodgy, no idea about the others.


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## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> Anyway, maybe someone more in touch with the music scene like Trev HAGL may know more



Oh dear


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> pressure28 is dodgy, no idea about the others.



I've met the bassist from Pressure 28, he was entirely pleasant and a laugh in my company. I also met his Brazilian girlfriend..... A solidly left-wing skinhead, former PCS rep, and his PCS rep wife knew him and we all met up for a drink when I was on union business in Leeds. The lead singer of the band is however a different kettle of fish.


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I've met the bassist from Pressure 28, he was entirely pleasant and a laugh in my company. I also met his Brazilian girlfriend..... A solidly left-wing skinhead, former PCS rep, and his PCS rep wife knew him and we all met up for a drink when I was on union business in Leeds. The lead singer of the band is however a different kettle of fish.



I think the singer from P28 Kev Gough is a fascist but the rest of the band - maybe not but in the 80s and early 90s they would not have been entertained by the punk scene I was part of because of their singer's fascist beliefs and some of the bands still doing the rounds like the Upstarts won't have them on the same bill.



butchersapron said:


> Oh dear



Even if he doesn't know anything about them I bet he still tries to sell a few oi! cds in this thread lol


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> I think the singer from P28 Kev Gough is a fascist but the rest of the band - maybe not but in the 80s and early 90s they would not have been entertained by the punk scene I was part of because of their singer's fascist beliefs and some of the bands still doing the rounds like the Upstarts won't have them on the same bill.



Gough certainly was/is yes.


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

http://oireszene.blogsport.de/

this blog has some good stuff about this 'grey area' but I'm struggling a bit with the google translation.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 3, 2012)

All skinheads are racist aren't they Fed?


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## trevhagl (Jan 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Oh dear



how did your analysis of the Lawrence trial fare!! hahahahaha


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## trevhagl (Jan 3, 2012)

Crashed Out are sound, good mates with Mensi .
Pressure 28 , well all kinds of stuff was exposed on Facebook about the singer
Skinfull were pictured on Facebook playing with some dodgy band , i forget who
Close Shave used to play with Skullhead

i'm waiting of Butchers coming along to give us his expert opinion


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## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> how did your analysis of the Lawrence trial fare!! hahahahaha


ouch. that's gotta hurt.


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## trevhagl (Jan 3, 2012)

although i have to say i haven't listened to much Oi lately because as Krink said the majority (of British bands at least) these days are well dodgy - i don't care if they're all out nazis or not but if they come out with tory divide and rule shit like people on the dole are all workshy scum , they may as well be for all i care. Don't they realise THEY are in as much danger of being thrown on Cameron's scrapheap as anyone else?


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## trevhagl (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> I think the singer from P28 Kev Gough is a fascist but the rest of the band - maybe not but in the 80s and early 90s they would not have been entertained by the punk scene I was part of because of their singer's fascist beliefs and some of the bands still doing the rounds like the Upstarts won't have them on the same bill.
> 
> Even if he doesn't know anything about them I bet he still tries to sell a few oi! cds in this thread lol



you are a very cynical man . I might wait till i get the dodgy ones on there sold first ha ha


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

There is lots of info on these and other bands on these 2 FB pages.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/103738279729470/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/269787709732091/


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> you are a very cynical man . I might wait till i get the dodgy ones on there sold first ha ha



come on Trev, I know you had your "massive punk/oi! sales" link ready to go....


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

Deareg said:


> There is lots of info on these and other bands on these 2 FB pages.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/103738279729470/
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/269787709732091/



the first one won't work for me, mate.


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> the first one won't work for me, mate.


Not sure what's happening, it worked when I tried it.

Try "Get off the fence"


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Not sure what's happening, it worked when I tried it.


 might just be FB being its usual crap self!


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> might just be FB being its usual crap self!


try typing "get off the fence"


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## frogwoman (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I've met the bassist from Pressure 28, he was entirely pleasant and a laugh in my company. I also met his Brazilian girlfriend..... A solidly left-wing skinhead, former PCS rep, and his PCS rep wife knew him and we all met up for a drink when I was on union business in Leeds. The lead singer of the band is however a different kettle of fish.



ah ok,


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

Oi is all shit anyway


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 3, 2012)

Anti-politics is politics.
Typical fucking Oi-sters.


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Oi is all shit anyway


Nah, there are some good bands or have been some good bands.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

Not many


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

There have been some good punk bands who were associated with oi! (red alert, sham 69, angelic upstarts, cockney rejects) and some decent bands who are definitely oi! (business, oppressed) but that's maybe for the music section!



Deareg said:


> try typing "get off the fence"



I just get loads of religious groups


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> There have been some good punk bands who were associated with oi! (red alert, sham 69, angelic upstarts, cockney rejects) and some decent bands who are definitely oi! (business, oppressed) but that's maybe for the music section!
> 
> I just get loads of religious groups


Fuck! No idea what's going on. Hope you took the opportunity to say a prayer. 

Here is the link again just in case the last one was corrupt.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/103738279729470/


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Fuck! No idea what's going on. Hope you took the opportunity to say a prayer.
> 
> Here is the link again just in case the last one was corrupt.
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/103738279729470/



Nope, nothing. I'm guessing it's a hidden group or something or my fb profile hasn't passed their security or something.


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## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not many


not any, really. bless 'em.


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> Nope, nothing. I'm guessing it's a hidden group or something or my fb profile hasn't passed their security or something.


It is invite only, but hadn't realised that it could not even be seen by non members. Could you view the RAF page?


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## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2012)

I saw it the other day and i'm not on facebook - the steve DIY thing right?


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I saw it the other day and i'm not on facebook - the steve DIY thing right?


It was started by Roddy Moreno, Steve is a member though.


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## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2012)

Maybe i'm thinking of something else.


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## past caring (Jan 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> the steve DIY thing right?



Tells you all you need to know.


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## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2012)

past caring said:


> Tells you all you need to know.


That's why it stuck in my mind, but as above - i may have the wrong thing...


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

It and the GOTF pages have actually been successful it getting a few bands with right wing links blocked from playing gigs and barred from venues, also a number of distribution outlets have dropped them from there lists, so there has been a bit of success.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> ah ok,



The bassists girlfriend isn't a PCS rep btw. The PCS rep, I know also knows the bassist. Said rep is by no means a racist/fascist the same as his wife.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Not many



Name some then. And don't get a list from google there's a good lad.


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy, it's a bit of a diversion into musical tastes and I'm not a massive oi! fan but I certainly like a few of the bands! there is quite a variety of sounds but all based around rock of some sort so maybe you don't like guitar based rock of any description? Or maybe fed's caught you out

Either way, it's about what they say, or in the case of these 'real oi!' or 'british oi!' bands, it is what is left _unsaid_ that is of interest to me.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

Ok then it's all shit.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

I was pretty close to the whole thing and can say with some authority that almost all of Oi was as dreadful as poi.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Ok then it's all shit.



ie I was right and you don't really know much about it at all. Pat yourself on your balding napper.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> I was pretty close to the whole thing and can say with some authority that almost all of Oi was as dreadful as poi.



Oh well then, that's it. The official version of events.....


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

Lol sorry granddad I forgot you're the authority on all things skin related


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

anyway, does anyone know anything about the political angle here?


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

Sorry krink


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## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2012)

krink said:


> anyway, does anyone know anything about the political angle here?


yes


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lol sorry granddad I forgot you're the authority on all things skin related



No, just think that someone who wants to make a point about this or that shite band should actually know what they are talking about. Or even one or two bands about which they are opining. Not liking oi is entirely legit-it's not my favourite genre-but at least know what you're talking about before tripping yourself up.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> No, just think that someone who wants to make a point about this or that shite band should actually know what they are talking about. Or even one or two bands about which they are opining. Not liking oi is entirely legit-it's not my favourite genre-but at least know what you're talking about before tripping yourself up.


this is urban75 - knowing what you're talking about is a bit of a handicap here


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> No, just think that someone who wants to make a point about this or that shite band should actually know what they are talking about. Or even one or two bands about which they are opining. Not liking oi is entirely legit-it's not my favourite genre-but at least know what you're talking about before tripping yourself up.


I saw LOADS of oi bands. I even did a gig with fucking Skrewdriver on the bill. I knew a fair few of the bands and I was a regular at one of the pubs where the whole scene started, so yes, I do feel like I know a fair bit about the scene and the bands.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> I even did a gig with fucking Skrewdriver on the bill.


tell us more


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> I saw LOADS of oi bands. I even did a gig with fucking Skrewdriver on the bill. I knew a fair few of the bands and I was a regular at one of the pubs where the whole scene started, so yes, I do feel like I know a fair bit about the scene and the bands.



Yes, you've mentioned you were 'there' before. I simply disagree.

Did you end up on the Infa Riot/Skrewdriver gig line up by any chance?


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> tell us more


They were shit. That's all there is to tell.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> They were shit. That's all there is to tell.


i wasn't too interested in them, more in how you found yourself on the same bill


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Yes, you've mentioned you were 'there' before. I simply disagree.


Hold on: you were busy suggesting that I 'didn't know what I was talking about.'

You may not like my opinion about the bands, but I was fucking there alright.

Here's a pic of the crowd at one of our gigs around that time. Oi!


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i wasn't too interested in them, more in how you found yourself on the same bill


They were part of the same post-punk/mod/new wave scene and at the time they hadn't turned into right wing boneheads.

Ah, here's the gig. They supported my old band in Wales. Bit of a rough old gig as I recall, with a load of fights (but then that was the norm for Mountain Ash)


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Hold on: you were busy suggesting that I 'didn't know what I was talking about.'
> 
> You may not like my opinion about the bands, but I was fucking there alright.
> 
> Here's a pic of the crowd at one of our gigs around that time. Oi!



Having an off day, I never once implied or intimated you weren't there so wind your neck in perhaps. Now. let's look at what I said "Oh well then, that's it. The official version of events". But don't let that get in the way of your rather silly hasty indignation at something that wasn't actually said will you?!



editor said:


> You may not like my opinion about the bands, but I was fucking there alright.


 


> Not liking oi is entirely legit


Something I also said earlier..... Ho hum.....


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Having an off day, I never once implied or intimated you weren't there so wind your neck in perhaps. Now. let's look at what I said "Oh well then, that's it. The official version of events". But don't let that get in the way of your rather silly hasty indignation at something that wasn't actually said will you?!


So what were you suggesting here: 





Fedayn said:


> No, just think that someone who wants to make a point about this or that shite band *should actually know what they are talking about.* Or even one or two bands about which they are opining.


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## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> So what were you suggesting here:


that was aimed, quite clearly, at tidy. not you.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

discokermit said:


> that was aimed, quite clearly, at tidy. not you.


Except it came after this response to my comment, with the rolleyes making it pretty clear what he thinks of my opinion.


Fedayn said:


> Oh well then, that's it. The official version of events.....


Anyway. It was mainly shite.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> So what were you suggesting here:



You mean when I was replying to Proper Tidy and NOT replying to you, do you mean that post and not any post replying to you? Now here's a thought, perhaps what it was in reference to was Proper Tidy's comments and not your post? Would that be what I was suggesting perhaps?


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> You mean when I was replying to Proper Tidy and NOT replying to you, do you mean that post and not any post replying to you?


Except you _did_ reply to me and tried to dismiss my opinion, not that I really give much of a fuck either way.

Anyway, I was there. The music was generally shite as was the scene.


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> So what were you suggesting here:



Did you not see who he was responding to?


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

sheothebudworths said:


> Did you not see who he was responding to?


Oh, the Grand Stirrer has arrived, right on cue! 

Oi music a particular interest of yours, then?


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Except you _did_ reply to me and tried to dismiss my opinion, not that I really give much of a fuck either way.
> 
> Anyway, I was there. The music was generally shite as was the scene.



Is it now the case that whenever we quote someone's post, we are in fact actually replying to *everyone* we've responded to on the thread, then?
WTF, lol


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## discokermit (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Except it came after this response to my comment, with the rolleyes making it pretty clear what he thinks of my opinion.


it quoted tidy's post and was completely in the context of the previous to and fro between them.


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Oh, the Grand Stirrer has arrived, right on cue!



You fucking what?

I was interested in the thread, yes. Obviously - or I wouldn't have been reading it.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Except you _did_ reply to me and tried to dismiss my opinion, not that I really give much of a fuck either way.



I replied to you in a different post, i'll type this slowly so you get it, ok?! I made the comment you referred to, whilst not giving a fuck either way of course, in a post NOT to you but to PT. As a result I was not talking about you or your experiences, Got it yet?



> _not that I really give much of a fuck either way_



Clearly, which is why you've not got a bit hot under the collar about a comment that was not aimed at, or written in reply to you. That's how much of a fuck either way you don't give



> I was there. The music was generally shite as was the scene.



Which is fine, and, as I said before you got a tad upset, an entirely legit opinion. Not that you give a fuck either way of course.


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## Maurice Picarda (Jan 3, 2012)

You do not need to have been on the same bill as Skrewdriver, or have provided backing vocals to Prussian Blue, to know that any musical movement championed by Gary Bushell is going to be poor. Very poor.

It's perfectly reasonable to be anti-politics, though, and to take someone's claim to be so at face value.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

sheothebudworths said:


> You fucking what?
> 
> I was interested in the thread, yes. Obviously - or I wouldn't have been reading it.


Sure.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I replied to you in a different post, i'll type this slowly so you get it, ok?! I made the comment you referred to, whilst not giving a fuck either way of course, in a post NOT to you but to PT. As a result I was not talking about you or your experiences, Got it yet?


That's great. So now you accept that I have a good knowledge of the scene, perhaps you'd like to withdraw the dismissive 'rolleyes' which you applied to my previous opinion?


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> You do not need to have been on the same bill as Skrewdriver, or have provided backing vocals to Prussian Blue, to know that any musical movement championed by Gary Bushell is going to be poor. Very poor.


Bushell was an embarrassment, as was the way Sounds desperately championed the Oi cause.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 3, 2012)

Anyway, I've heard enough oi to know it is mostly shit. I even went to an oi gig once.

Nyah.


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It's perfectly reasonable to be anti-politics, though, and to take someone's claim to be so at face value.



Thing is though, when they say anti politics they nearly always mean anti leftist or anti fascists, many of them have absolutely no problem with the far right.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> That's great. So now you accept that I have a good knowledge of the scene, perhaps you'd like to withdraw the dismissive 'rolleyes' which you applied to my previous opinion?



You got it wrong, claimed I said something I didn't and you want the withdrawal of a little rolleyes? Oh do fuck off you precious cunt.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

I used to be a regular at the Bridgehouse in Canning Town. Recorded an album with them. Knew the guv'nor and his sons very well.

Here's Bushell's romanticised take on the scene. There were some top faces around the bar but there was no shortage of dodgy racist geezers either.


> The first stand-alone Oi scene developed around the Cockney Rejects and their regular gig venue, the Bridge House in Canning Town, East London. It became the focus for an entire subculture. In 1980, this was the LIFE!
> 
> None of these faces were “Nazis”. Most of them weren’t political at all, beyond the sense of voting Labour (if they bothered to vote at all) out of a sense of tradition. A tiny percentage was interested in the extremes of either right or left. As a breed they were natural conservatives. They believed in standing on their own two feet. They were patriotic, and proud of their class and their immediate culture. They looked good and dressed sharp. It was important not to look like a scruff or a student. Their heroes were boxers and footballers, not union leaders. Unlicensed boxing was a big draw, as were the dogs and stag comedians like Jimmy Jones and Jimmy Fagg. They liked to fight around football matches – the West Ham ICF (Inter City Firm) were fully represented at most local Rejects gigs. The young men oozed machismo, but some of the women were just as tough. But they weren’t mugs. These were bright kids and a surprisingly large number of them have gone on to carve out successful businesses in fields as diverse as the music industry, pornography and clothing manufacture.
> 
> http://www.garry-bushell.co.uk/features.htm


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Sure.



Why don't you just spit it right out, instead of pissing about with your snidey little digs on the rare occasion that I ever interact with you, you weirdo?

I wasn't aware that you'd posted when I opened the thread. I read _quite a lot_ of threads, you know (whether *you* think I'd be interested in them, or not).


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> You got it wrong, claimed I said something I didn't and you want the withdrawal of a little rolleyes? Oh do fuck off you precious cunt.









Calm down dear!


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Calm down dear!



I think you should take your own advice deary.


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## killer b (Jan 3, 2012)

oi threads, just like oi gigs - guaranteed a punch up.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

sheothebudworths said:


> Why don't you just spit it right out, instead of pissing about with your snidey little digs on the rare occasion that I ever interact with you, you weirdo?


The "rare occasions that you interact with me" almost _always_ come in the form of you rocking up in a thread to deliver a snidey little dig. Just like in this thread!  

But now you're here in this thread that interests you so much, perhaps you might tell us more about your interest in the Oi scene. What bands did you see?


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

killer b said:


> oi threads, just like oi gigs - guaranteed a punch up.


We just need a dodgy, probably-racist band providing the backing music and we'll have the full experience!


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh piss off, you egotistical, paranoid cunt.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> We just need a dodgy, probably-racist band providing the backing music and we'll have the full experience!



I'd rather go to an Oppressed gig that one like that frankly.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

sheothebudworths said:


> Oh piss off, you egotistical, paranoid cunt.


Caught out. LOL.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I'd rather go to an Oppressed gig that one like that frankly.


Did you ever go to any of the Bridgehouse oi gigs? To describe Bushell's take on the crowd as "romanticised" would be a breathtaking understatement.

That said, it was the late 70s, early 80s, and the East End wasn't exactly renown for its racial tolerance. I lived in Plaistow for a while and that was the grimmest place I'd ever lived. Real NF territory.


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## killer b (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> We just need a dodgy, probably-racist band providing the backing music and we'll have the full experience!


they already stopped playing and joined in. The bassist just pulled one of your dreads out.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

killer b said:


> they already stopped playing and joined in. The bassist just pulled one of your dreads out.


Back in the day my hair was _considerably_ shorter! Walking about with dreads in E16 would have been akin to having a target painted on your face.


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Caught out. LOL.



Jesus Christ, you're weird.


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

sheothebudworths said:


> Jesus Christ, you're weird.


Just go away please. Thanks.

Back on topic, here's what Wikipedia lists as the main oi bands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Oi!_bands


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Did you ever go to any of the Bridgehouse oi gigs? To describe Bushell's take on the crowd as "romanticised" would be a breathtaking understatement.
> 
> That said, it was the late 70s, early 80s, and the East End wasn't exactly renown for its racial tolerance. I lived in Plaistow for a while and that was the grimmest place I'd ever lived. Real NF territory.



No i'm a bit young . But far too often, i'd agree, Bushell, who at the time was a Leftist, indeed a former active member of the SWP, was rather misty-eyed about a good too many things in that scene. There were many good things, politically and otherwise within oi. On the cover of one of the original oi lp's there was the comment 'Oi for England, England for the workers', which i'd have no trouble agreeing with, I reckon you wouldn't either. But, I also agree, there was also at fuck load of shite, politically and violence wise mainly, about. Most notably the appearance of Nicky Crane on the remarkably stupidly named 'Strength thru oi'. Interestingly the 'Rock Against Communism' (Skrewdrivers bastard offspring) were remarkably un-flattering about oi moaning about it's non-opposition to leftists in the crowd etc etc.

As an aside Hoxton Tom-formerly of The 4Skins-is a big noise in a London council dealing with environment etc. Interestingly he's a bit of a liberal-leftist too.....


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Just go away please. Thanks.
> 
> Back on topic, here's what Wikipedia lists as the main oi bands:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Oi!_bands



Errr, no,_ you_ go away!  Fucking hell, lol


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> On the cover of one of the original oi lp's there was the comment 'Oi for England, England for the workers', which i'd have no trouble agreeing with, I reckon you wouldn't either.


That very much defines as to who you're defining as 'English' - which was one of the major issues at the time. I don't think such an ambiguous slogan was really helpful in a time when knuckleheads were busy chanting shite like "England for the English."


----------



## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> Just go away please. Thanks.
> 
> Back on topic, here's what Wikipedia lists as the main oi bands:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Oi!_bands


Mensi won't be happy about the Upstarts being on that list, he insists they are and always have been a punk band.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> but if they come out with tory divide and rule shit like people on the dole are all workshy scum , they may as well be for all i care.



This sort of opinion is getting disseminated by all sorts at the moment.


----------



## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Mensi won't be happy about the Upstarts being on that list, he insists they are and always have been a punk band.


They're pretty much widely acknowledged as coming from that scene, even if they wisely veered away from it pretty sharpish.


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> They're pretty much widely acknowledged as coming from that scene, even if they wisely veered away from it pretty sharpish.


They predate, Don't they??


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## editor (Jan 3, 2012)

Deareg said:


> They predate, Don't they??


A lot of punk bands pre-dated the movement too, but it's the one they became associated with. If you look up the Angelic Upstarts, just about every source links them with the oi movement.


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## sheothebudworths (Jan 3, 2012)

I could _ask,_ tbf


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> No i'm a bit young . But far too often, i'd agree, Bushell, who at the time was a Leftist, indeed a former active member of the SWP, was rather misty-eyed about a good too many things in that scene. There were many good things, politically and otherwise within oi. On the cover of one of the original oi lp's there was the comment 'Oi for England, England for the workers', which i'd have no trouble agreeing with, I reckon you wouldn't either. But, I also agree, there was also at fuck load of shite, politically and violence wise mainly, about. Most notably the appearance of Nicky Crane on the remarkably stupidly named 'Strength thru oi'. Interestingly the 'Rock Against Communism' (Skrewdrivers bastard offspring) were remarkably un-flattering about oi moaning about it's non-opposition to leftists in the crowd etc etc.
> 
> As an aside Hoxton Tom-formerly of The 4Skins-is a big noise in a London council dealing with environment etc. Interestingly he's a bit of a liberal-leftist too.....


i'd agree that nicky crane and the strength through oi bit did seem to mke things become very stark and a more than a bit dodgy in many ways.


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## Deareg (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> A lot of punk bands pre-dated the movement too, but it's the one they became associated with. If you look up the Angelic Upstarts, just about every source links them with the oi movement.


Fair enough, hadn't realised that.


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## krink (Jan 3, 2012)

OK, but can I just jump in there and say this isn't really about old oi! it's more about the bands who came together (or reformed) in the 90s and 00s like Close Shave, Charge Sheet, Pressure 28, SuperYob, Tattooed MotherFuckers, Skinfull, London Diehards, Condemned 84, Bakers Dozen, Breakout, Code 1 etc etc.


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## josef1878 (Jan 3, 2012)

I own albums by Superyob, Condemned 84 and Bakers Dozen. 

I own more by Los Fastidios, Runnin Riot and the Oppressed though.

There's politics in em all.


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## Fedayn (Jan 3, 2012)

editor said:


> That very much defines as to who you're defining as 'English' - which was one of the major issues at the time. I don't think such an ambiguous slogan was really helpful in a time when knuckleheads were busy chanting shite like "England for the English."



At the time Bushell was still on the Left, as were a good number of the Sounds writers. As such to me it's completely unambiguous, 'workers' is irrespective of colour and a remarkably progressive political statement given the 'environment' it was used in. But the problem comes with the latter events which would well colour how people viewed previous comments/phrases I would agree.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> That's great. So now you accept that I have a good knowledge of the scene, perhaps you'd like to withdraw the dismissive 'rolleyes' which you applied to my previous opinion?



go to be honest here Ed, you've shown very little evidence of a 'good knowledge' of the scene here, more like a fleeting association with it on which you've based a pretty flimsy sounding opinion ( alongside your Wiki search for a list of bands ! ) - I'm not pretending to be any kind of expert on this, but are you really trying to dismiss the likes of Cock Sparrer / the Rejects / Angelic Upstarts etc as shit , or have you never listened to them properly ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

cantsin said:


> go to be honest here Ed, you've shown very little evidence of a 'good knowledge' of the scene here, more like a fleeting association with it on which you've based a pretty flimsy sounding opinion ( alongside your Wiki search for a list of bands ! ) - I'm not pretending to be any kind of expert on this, but are you really trying to dismiss the likes of Cock Sparrer / the Rejects / Angelic Upstarts etc as shit , or have you never listened to them properly ?


yeh, cocksparrer are the only band i can think of who've covered the stones' 'we love you' and songs like 'working' or 'running riot' are better imo than a fuck load of punk, musically and politically - and a fuck of a lot funnier. and any band who can do a song like 'sunday stripper' have a good sense of humour too.


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh, cocksparrer are the only band i can think of who've covered the stones' 'we love you' and songs like 'working' or 'running riot' are better imo than a fuck load of punk, musically and politically - and a fuck of a lot funnier. and any band who can do a song like 'sunday stripper' have a good sense of humour too.



I'd add Running Riot, Infa Riot, The Business, The Oppressed, The Angelic Upstarts, The Templars and Blitz to those with politics and humour.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2012)

cantsin said:


> go to be honest here Ed, you've shown very little evidence of a 'good knowledge' of the scene here, more like a fleeting association with it on which you've based a pretty flimsy sounding opinion ( alongside your Wiki search for a list of bands ! ) - I'm not pretending to be any kind of expert on this, but are you really trying to dismiss the likes of Cock Sparrer / the Rejects / Angelic Upstarts etc as shit , or have you never listened to them properly ?


Err, I was a regular at the pub where the whole scene kicked off. I knew some of the bands personally. I gigged with some of the bands. I saw loads of the bands play live. If all that counts as a "fleeting association" in your book, I'd be intrigued as to what your experience is by comparison.

Oh, and exactly where have I said that "Cock Sparrer / the Rejects / Angelic Upstarts" were "shit"?

Nowhere, that's where. I've been quite careful to say that 'almost all' of the bands on the scene were shit. And if you were there, you'd know that too. There were some fucking dreadful bands aligning themselves to that scene and I saw too many of them.

Or do you think the oi scene was jam-packed with fantastic bands and the three you mentioned were just the tip of the iceberg of _massive_ talent?


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Did you ever go to any of the Bridgehouse oi gigs? To describe Bushell's take on the crowd as "romanticised" would be a breathtaking understatement.
> 
> That said, it was the late 70s, early 80s, and the East End wasn't exactly renown for its racial tolerance. I lived in Plaistow for a while and that was the grimmest place I'd ever lived. Real NF territory.



that may well be true but what a lot of people on here can't grasp is Bushell in the early days actually set up Oi as a working class movement against the bosses , Tories AND racists - and there were indeed some great records , but living 300 miles away i never even knew about the racism at the time until Skrewdriver etc appeared. Its now obvious by looking at the amount of BNP voters etc that the East of London /Essex has more than its share of dodgepots but that only makes it more honourable of Bushell to stick his neck out at the time, knowing he could be jarped at any time

Before any smart arses come on here i am ONLY defending him in the early 80s, we all know what happened after


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> They were shit. That's all there is to tell.



were they dodgy by then?


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

all the people who slag Oi off, would you not be prepared to admit that Cock Sparrer , Gimp Fist , Booze & Glory or Running Riot are good?


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Fuck! No idea what's going on. Hope you took the opportunity to say a prayer.
> 
> Here is the link again just in case the last one was corrupt.
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/103738279729470/



you have to be a member to access that page - i got kicked off for selling the first Skrewdriver LP ho ho


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## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I've met the bassist from Pressure 28, he was entirely pleasant and a laugh in my company. I also met his Brazilian girlfriend..... A solidly left-wing skinhead, former PCS rep, and his PCS rep wife knew him and we all met up for a drink when I was on union business in Leeds. The lead singer of the band is however a different kettle of fish.



I heard this (about the bassist being sound)from the singer of the Oicott , still a mystery how he ends up in a band that sings about filth being let into the country, workshy scum etc though!! Its like the Infa Riot bassist playing in a band with a closet fash band member, just wierd


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> all the people who slag Oi off, would you not be prepared to admit that Cock Sparrer , Gimp Fist , Booze & Glory or Running Riot are good?


I saw Cock Sparrer. They were a good laugh live, but musically, it was all pretty forgettable stuff.


----------



## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

like most music though it depends on what ears you are listening with , I think the thing with Oi purely the nature of the style of music means it didnt/doesnt progress much past the original sound ( that doesnt have to be bad IMO ) . Punk , which many people would also describe as forgettable in its original form saw bands like The Clash , Damned , Stranglers , Gen x , cross over into the mainstream a little . The Pistols because of the single album are only remembered in their original form , having said that , NMTB is the best Rock n Roll album ever made to my ears .


----------



## Deareg (Jan 4, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> you have to be a member to access that page - i got kicked off for selling the first Skrewdriver LP ho ho


Right, I had forgotten that.

Have you asked about getting back on? Or not bothered?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

Maurice Picarda said:


> You do not need to have been on the same bill as Skrewdriver, or have provided backing vocals to Prussian Blue, to know that any musical movement championed by Gary Bushell is going to be poor. Very poor.
> 
> It's perfectly reasonable to be anti-politics, though, and to take someone's claim to be so at face value.



and lets not forget 'pathetique' - another of bushells musical sub-sub genres. splodegenessabounds anyone? crivvens! not sensibles were good tho!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

reading stinky turners book in conjunction with bushells hoolies gives an idea of the presence of far right figures in the oi! scene. cock sparrer - england belongs to me? eek!


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## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

Bushell takes a lot of stick and most of it well deserved but in the late 70`s early 80`s he was a good music journo , he was the guy who you wanted to read when Sounds came out reviewing a gig you had been to . he was critical too if he though a band was shite or over-hyped.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Bushell was an embarrassment, as was the way Sounds desperately championed the Oi cause.


it was a marketing ploy along with their promotion of the apalling british hevay metal wave (NWOBHM). sounds, nme, melody maker were financed by the music industry and promoted the bands who the advertisers wanted. however, sounds used to use cartoonist (roscoe moscow) kurt vile who was later known as alan moore!


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## editor (Jan 4, 2012)

Sounds was always in the second division of music papers for me. It used to be good though.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> i'd agree that nicky crane and the strength through oi bit did seem to mke things become very stark and a more than a bit dodgy in many ways.



yeah they panicked when the story broke! they airbrushed out cranes nazi tattoos but it was a wee bit too late.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> reading stinky turners book in conjunction with bushells hoolies gives an idea of the presence of far right figures in the oi! scene. cock sparrer - england belongs to me? eek!



Impossible not to acknowlege , it was a major problem of the time , Madness , Rejects and Sham were wrongly associated with racism but it was definiteley not a majority or even a significant minority but their gigs were sometimes overrun with NF boneheads


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## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Sounds was always in the second division of music papers for me. It used to be good though.



it was either Sounds or MelodyMaker ,  always went Sounds myself .


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## editor (Jan 4, 2012)

I used to buy the lot being a muso and all that. Time for a separate thread, I think!


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## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> it was either Sounds or MelodyMaker ,  always went Sounds myself .


Likewise


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## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> reading stinky turners book in conjunction with bushells hoolies gives an idea of the presence of far right figures in the oi! scene. cock sparrer - england belongs to me? eek!



There's nothing inherently racist about 'England belongs to me'. A former workmate of mines Shug O'Neill, a left-wing Glaswegian, used to be a guitarist in Cock Sparrer, he was and is pretty clear that the band were neither racist nor fascist


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## Fedayn (Jan 4, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> it was either Sounds or MelodyMaker , always went Sounds myself .



Preferred Sounds myself aswell.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

suggs was tainted by chelsea/nf associations but rejects were west ham and was involved in inter-firm rivalry (yaaaaawn!) on tour. stinkys book is basically a catalogue of gig fights based on this, esp 'the battle of birmignham' bit!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

shouldnt we be on the lawrence thread instead of nostalging over the rejects etc?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

I suppose the pistols' 'belsen was a gas' makes them a far-right band if we're going to damn cocksparrer for 'england belongs to me'


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## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> suggs was tainted by chelsea/nf associations but rejects were west ham and was involved in inter-firm rivalry (yaaaaawn!) on tour. stinkys book is basically a catalogue of gig fights based on this, esp 'the battle of birmignham' bit!



seen The Rejects many many times , no hiding their West Ham roots and as a young Hammer myself it made it VERY inclusive , it didnt travel too well in the early 80`s !!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

i didnt say sparrer were right wing just cited the song as possibly a bit flag wavey! and the pistols did some great stuff but also a lot of plop. belsen song was vile and  crass beyond belief (not the band crass).


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## editor (Jan 4, 2012)

Vote in the "what was your favourite old school music mag" poll here!
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...in-the-day-melody-maker-nme-or-sounds.286713/


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## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i didnt say sparrer were right wing just cited the song as possibly a bit flag wavey! and the pistols did some great stuff but also a lot of plop. belsen song was vile and crass beyond belief (not the band crass).



Just like Sid`s Swastika T , it was worn for shock value and that alone , nothing to do with sympathies.


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## Deareg (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> I suppose the pistols' 'belsen was a gas' makes them a far-right band if we're going to damn cocksparrer for 'england belongs to me'


Or the Upstarts for 'England'.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

altho mensi was AFA etc i always thought stuff like 'last night another soldier' etc was a bit ... euch!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> Just like Sid`s Swastika T , it was worn for shock value and that alone , nothing to do with sympathies.


its important to remember it was about shock rather than ideology. it wasnt till after RAR/ANL and the carnivals that folk started to wise up in the punk scene and swastika t-shirts were taboo.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

eek!


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 4, 2012)

Whatever happened to the Postmen?

Louis MacNeice


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

they were late as usual!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

can we start a 'shit songs on the crass label we bought cos they were cheap' thread?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> that may well be true but what a lot of people on here can't grasp is Bushell in the early days actually set up Oi as a working class movement against the bosses , Tories AND racists - and there were indeed some great records , but living 300 miles away i never even knew about the racism at the time until Skrewdriver etc appeared. Its now obvious by looking at the amount of BNP voters etc that the East of London /Essex has more than its share of dodgepots but that only makes it more honourable of Bushell to stick his neck out at the time, knowing he could be jarped at any time
> 
> Before any smart arses come on here i am ONLY defending him in the early 80s, we all know what happened after



To be fair, regardless of whether Oi! was/is shit or not, it had the same problem as many punk/new wave bands of the time had - arsehole rightwingers. I went to hundreds of gigs, large and small, between '76 and '79, and any band with overt politics pretty much guaranteed a phalanx of _sieg heilers_ at the gig. Some bands were overwhelmed by it, some fought back, and others jumped on the bandwagon. Beardie was unfortunately too much of an idealist to realise the appeal of Oi! outside of his own intentions for it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> A lot of punk bands pre-dated the movement too, but it's the one they became associated with. If you look up the Angelic Upstarts, just about every source links them with the oi movement.



TBF, the problem for Mensi was that Bushell and other Oi-sters took up cudgels for the Upstarts, and that kind of got them branded with the Oi! label, even though their "political vision" (for want of a better phrase) was wider than that of Oi! in general.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Sounds was always in the second division of music papers for me. It used to be good though.



It was still better than _Record Mirror_, though!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

agreed panda, they preceded the oi movement and have outlasted the vast majority of them. and he's good on the AFA video too! musics still rubbish tho.


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## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> it was either Sounds or MelodyMaker , always went Sounds myself .


Sounds was the only one to care about real music


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## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Right, I had forgotten that.
> 
> Have you asked about getting back on? Or not bothered?



don't even know if it's still going? It threw up some interesting stuff but gradually descended into looking for any signs of dodgy behavioiur no matter how slight which i felt defeated the object and could only serve to push people towards the enemy, i'm not on about the likes of P28 , i mean personal attacks on people who happen to KNOW people who are a bit dodgy, but who themselves are basically sound


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## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> agreed panda, they preceded the oi movement and have outlasted the vast majority of them. and he's good on the AFA video too! musics still rubbish tho.


 dunno how you can say that , Red Flag and King Rat off new CD are great


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## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

editor said:


> Sounds was always in the second division of music papers for me. It used to be good though.



by 1983 it had totally became shit, with rubbish like Japan on the cover .... they forgot all their readership and went looking for piss pot posers from new romantic / electronic movement . NWOBHM i didn't like that much but at least it was real music even if the lyrics said bugger all


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

got to admit to being more kirs kristofferson these days! 'if you dont like hank williams you can kiss my ass!' now thats PUNK attitude trev!


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## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> reading stinky turners book in conjunction with bushells hoolies gives an idea of the presence of far right figures in the oi! scene. cock sparrer - england belongs to me? eek!



although the Rejects were a lot more sussed than the people in that area there's still the odd cringeworthy thing in it where he chins Captain sensible for making a joke about the Royals/Lord Mountbatten...oh dear


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

it was all market leading. new romantic was awful and just some tossers like robert elms in a club. journos picked up on it as next new thing. british metal? oy, such rubbish!


----------



## trevhagl (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> got to admit to being more kirs kristofferson these days! 'if you dont like hank williams you can kiss my ass!' now thats PUNK attitude trev!



haha well at least ye admit it , i wonder who the other Oi critics on here like?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> got to admit to being more kirs kristofferson these days! 'if you dont like hank williams you can kiss my ass!' now thats PUNK attitude trev!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

great bloke, great film, great soundtrack. but dylan's acting? eeek!


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## Pickman's model (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> great bloke, great film, great soundtrack. but dylan's acting? eeek!


i don't think anyone's watched that film for dylan's acting for 30 years or more


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

i know this maybe a bit avant garde but you gotta love him!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think anyone's watched that film for dylan's acting for 30 years or more



watched it the other week and am still puzzled as to why peckinpah thought he cd act. must have been the booze'n'druuuugs!


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## Deareg (Jan 4, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> don't even know if it's still going? It threw up some interesting stuff but gradually descended into looking for any signs of dodgy behavioiur no matter how slight which i felt defeated the object and could only serve to push people towards the enemy, i'm not on about the likes of P28 , i mean personal attacks on people who happen to KNOW people who are a bit dodgy, but who themselves are basically sound


That was only 1 or 2 people, some members I thought took offence where non was intended and a lot of it was just debate as to what the group should stand for and what direction it should go, which to me was natural, you have a group of people coming together from different backgrounds with different outlooks and attitudes, it is natural that there will be disagreements,it's good points far out weigh it's bad one's, and to be honest Trev, given the idea behind setting up the group, selling a skrewdriver record was always going to be a no no, same as some admitting that they have mates who are fascists.


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## Deareg (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> got to admit to being more kirs kristofferson these days! 'if you dont like hank williams you can kiss my ass!' now thats PUNK attitude trev!


Hank the III?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

i shd think KK (unfortunate initials!) was referring to the 1st!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

getting no work done here! over nostalge'd by oi!


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## editor (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> its important to remember it was about shock rather than ideology. it wasnt till after RAR/ANL and the carnivals that folk started to wise up in the punk scene and swastika t-shirts were taboo.


Indeed. Back in the 1970s, loads of pre punk bands would happily strut around with Nazi regalia, as did biker gangs.

For example, the old hippy shop in Cardiff sold Iron Crosses which kids wore with no fascist intent that I could ever see.


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## editor (Jan 4, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> Sounds was the only one to care about real music


LOL! The would rave about any old shite if they thought it could help them shift a few more copies.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> got to admit to being more kirs kristofferson these days! 'if you dont like hank williams you can kiss my ass!' now thats PUNK attitude trev!



I was massively  into ( early ) punk and still dust off the oldies regularly but put me on a desert island with just one type of music for the duration  and it would be Country .


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

when i was a kid my dad bought me an iron cross replica - and he is a devout socialist! it was just 'war stuff.'


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## Deareg (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> when i was a kid my dad bought me an iron cross replica - and he is a devout socialist! it was just 'war stuff.'


There was a market near us sold 'em and we all bought them as kids, politics never entered our heads.


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## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2012)

they were selling them in Claires Accessories in the early 2000s


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## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2012)

Still are for all I know


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

really, must get down there! apparently they sell eye shadow in 'yaxley blue' as well!


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## frogwoman (Jan 4, 2012)

And then there were those "surfing bracelets" sold by O'Neill, Ripcurl, et al with suspiciously curved cross-shaped designs. I couldn't find a picture on here so this will have to do:


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## krink (Jan 4, 2012)

well, I'm glad everyone enjoyed the rows about music papers and musical tastes but my research into the politics angle on this new wave of oi! thing has lead me to believe that it's a pile of shite where everyone forgets about the damage the stiff-right-armers did to our culture and fascists can go happily on there merry way as if nothing mattered during the dark days of the late 80s and early 90s when B&H was growing. Maybe if B&H grows again they will all fuck off to that gravy train? They say they aren't political but they only seem to moan about left/antifa politics. They say this is because it's only the left/antifa who make a fuss - well they would say that wouldn't they? their nazi mates are going to keep quiet and the bands just keep the money. fuck them.

I've decided I'll stick to Black Metal scene, surely that'll be free from fascists


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## malatesta32 (Jan 4, 2012)

ha ha great bit of nostalgia and not a jot of work done! some oi was good, some was crap but all fascists are wankers. now, how about that anarcho-punk thread krink?


----------



## october_lost (Jan 4, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> suggs was tainted by chelsea/nf associations but rejects were west ham and was involved in inter-firm rivalry (yaaaaawn!) on tour. stinkys book is basically a catalogue of gig fights based on this, esp 'the battle of birmignham' bit!


Suggs had links to the far-right, and I believe was friends with Skrewdriver lead singer at one point.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 4, 2012)

october_lost said:


> Suggs had links to the far-right, and I believe was friends with Skrewdriver lead singer at one point.



Evidence?


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## krink (Jan 4, 2012)

october_lost said:


> Suggs had links to the far-right, and I believe was friends with Skrewdriver lead singer at one point.



yes, it is true.



> Suggsy used to be the roadie for Skrewdriver back in 1978 and I went back down to London for a while and stayed at this mothers flat cos he’d moved out of his room and bought a house so I had his room. I was only there for about seven months, that was basically it, the picture was taken in his mums front room. The Madness film was done in about 1981 or something like that, anyway because I didn’t have much money at the time, they just got me on the film, that´s all. I got the agency fee which was about £60 or something, and that´s why I was in the film.


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## krink (Jan 4, 2012)




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## krink (Jan 4, 2012)

though to be fair to suggs, he pretty much disowned the fash he knew as soon as people questioned it and i've no reason to believe he was a fascist himself. definitely hung around with some though but in the late 70s/early 80s they were just kids really.


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## Deareg (Jan 4, 2012)

krink said:


> yes, it is true.


Isn't that from a site dedicated to ian stuart? or at least a fascist site, so I would not use that as evidence.


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## krink (Jan 4, 2012)

by the way, watching that film on youtube now, what a laugh it is, really ropey but in a good way. the skins who chase the band are played by the Tilbury Trojan Skins gang who were/are mentalists and would fight wth anyone who wanted it if they're right/left/black/white whatever!


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## hammerntongues (Jan 4, 2012)

krink said:


> though to be fair to suggs, he pretty much disowned the fash he knew as soon as people questioned it and i've no reason to believe he was a fascist himself. definitely hung around with some though but in the late 70s/early 80s they were just kids really.



In your teens in Essex / East london mid late 70`s there was a very strong chance that some of your friends would be NF ,  I certainly had friends who were sucked into it . loads of stuff we do in our teens seems unthinkable just a couple of years later .


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## krink (Jan 4, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Isn't that from a site dedicated to ian stuart? or at least a fascist site, so I would not use that as evidence.



I already knew about it being a massive madness fan back in the day but just wanted to post a quote for the sake of 'evidence'. Suggs has admitted he knew all these lads, it was an interview with suggs about the film that i learned about all this.

**it was suggs and lee I think being interviewed if anyone can find it, post a link, cheers


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## krink (Jan 4, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> In your teens in Essex / East london mid late 70`s there was a very strong chance that some of your friends would be NF , I certainly had friends who were sucked into it . loads of stuff we do in our teens seems unthinkable just a couple of years later .



i think it was exactly the same all over the uk at that time mate, was up here in the north east.


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## trevhagl (Jan 5, 2012)

october_lost said:


> Suggs had links to the far-right, and I believe was friends with Skrewdriver lead singer at one point.



he briefly lived with him i think but i am not sure if he'd came out as dodge at the time...which brings us to Skrewdriver All Skrewed Up - a punk/pub rock Lp with no political connections , 3 years before Ian Stuart would assemble a completely different band.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

krink said:


> by the way, watching that film on youtube now, what a laugh it is, really ropey but in a good way. the skins who chase the band are played by the Tilbury Trojan Skins gang who were/are mentalists and would fight wth anyone who wanted it if they're right/left/black/white whatever!



aye yes, tilbury skins!  they are in the george marshall documentary skinhead doco as the 'anti-paki league' and then one of the main ones was in a doco on new english library (richard allen, chopper etc) lovingly fondling copies of skinhead escapes etc declaring his love of 'teen cults.' a total penis.


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## trevhagl (Jan 5, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> In your teens in Essex / East london mid late 70`s there was a very strong chance that some of your friends would be NF , I certainly had friends who were sucked into it . loads of stuff we do in our teens seems unthinkable just a couple of years later .



probably worse now i imagine!!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

krink said:


> by the way, watching that film on youtube now, what a laugh it is, really ropey but in a good way.


i started watching it but had to stop as it was so bad. they play in the dublin castle at one point i think. great band and seemingly incapable of not writing hits!


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## editor (Jan 5, 2012)

When I moved to east London from Cardiff and I was taken aback by the ingrained levels of racism. Plaistow was the worst.

*shudders at the memory


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## editor (Jan 5, 2012)

krink said:


> though to be fair to suggs, he pretty much disowned the fash he knew as soon as people questioned it and i've no reason to believe he was a fascist himself. definitely hung around with some though but in the late 70s/early 80s they were just kids really.


Skrewdriver weren't a far-right group in 1978. They wouldn't have got to support us if they were. Mind you, I didn't book them: I think the venue did.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 5, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> probably worse now i imagine!!



 Possibly , although I still live in Essex I no longer live in an area that would be overtly racist , I think the thing about the NF in the 70`s it was actually something they felt proud about , badges were worn openly etc etc it was much more open . I may have got this totally wrong but my impression is nowadays that the BM or EDL or whatever is the NF equiv is much more subversive , something that they wouldnt wear on their sleeve , maybe down the pub with mates but up and down the High St or in Shopping centres etc I dont think so ? from my experience of football terraces even if you do hear the odd racist chant you no longer see leaflets being handed out , if they did they would be given a good kicking at Upton Park .
Less brazen , weaker or just more scared of the consequences , whatever it`s good.


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## killer b (Jan 5, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> probably worse now i imagine!!


is it fuck


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## frogwoman (Jan 5, 2012)

editor said:


> Skrewdriver weren't a far-right group in 1978. They wouldn't have got to support us if they were. Mind you, I didn't book them: I think the venue did.



Didn't the other original members of skrewdriver leave when ISD started to take the group in an explicitly fash direction?


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## killer b (Jan 5, 2012)

not exactly - the original band split up in 1979, and donaldson just re-used the name for his new nazi band when they formed in 1982. the skrewdriver lineup has been fairly fluid over the years though...


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## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> probably worse now i imagine!!


 
why would that be the case? The BNP membership base even at its height wasn't based on youth, where as the NF recruited well from them.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

yeah different demographic. the young nf, joe pearce, bulldog and the british movement and that appealed to violent youth rather than taking on any electoral stance. mainly cos a lot of em were too young to vote!


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## hammerntongues (Jan 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah different demographic. the* young nf, joe pearce, bulldog* and the british movement and that appealed to violent youth rather than taking on any electoral stance. mainly cos a lot of em were too young to vote!



yep that just  about sums up mid 1970`s NF of my memory.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> aye yes, tilbury skins!  they are in the george marshall documentary skinhead doco as the 'anti-paki league' and then one of the main ones was in a doco on new english library (richard allen, chopper etc) lovingly fondling copies of skinhead escapes etc declaring his love of 'teen cults.' a total penis.


the nel did publish a wide range of books by people who were not richrard allen and who didn't write about skinheads


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## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah different demographic. the young nf, joe pearce, bulldog and the british movement and that appealed to violent youth rather than taking on any electoral stance. mainly cos a lot of em were too young to vote!



Don't think it was based on being too young to vote but the politics of control of the streets. The NF also recruited well from employed workers in London, Midlands and elsewhere over immigration threatening their pay and job chances


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 5, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> the nel did publish a wide range of books by people who were not richrard allen and who didn't write about skinheads



Guy N Smith?


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## trevhagl (Jan 5, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Didn't the other original members of skrewdriver leave when ISD started to take the group in an explicitly fash direction?



all irrelevant when big bad T.Hagl is caught selling the first LP!!


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## Fedayn (Jan 5, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> all irrelevant when big bad T.Hagl is caught selling the first LP!!



All Skrewed Up? Got it on Chiswick original vinyl, good album.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> the nel did publish a wide range of books by people who were not richrard allen and who didn't write about skinheads


oh god i know they did. i used to rob the skinhead and angel books from a local market stall. i recently bought chopper from amazon - what a loada cobblers. it starts with 'angels' battering skins! an outrage i am sure never happened! all trash, all great when yr 15 and covered in acne! (and indeed older with a touch of winter to the beard!). pickmans, what about an NEL nostalg thread?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Don't think it was based on being too young to vote but the politics of control of the streets. The NF also recruited well from employed workers in London, Midlands and elsewhere over immigration threatening their pay and job chances



steps, the majority of BM and YNF lads i unfortunately knew were either too young to vote or couldnt be arsed but yes it was about street presence and having being a tough 'soccer grouping' or 'footy firm' as the cogniscenti call them!


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## Deareg (Jan 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> oh god i know they did. i used to rob the skinhead and angel books from a local market stall. i recently bought chopper from amazon - what a loada cobblers. it starts with 'angels' battering skins! an outrage i am sure never happened! all trash, all great when yr 15 and covered in acne! (and indeed older with a touch of winter to the beard!). pickmans, what about an NEL nostalg thread?


When I was about 8 I heard that there was going to be a big fight at a fair in Platt fields park in Manchester between skinheads and hells angels, so me and some friends sneaked out of our houses to go and watch it, the fight never took place, probably because of the amount of coppers and dogs that turned up along with me and my mates and I ended up getting the arse slapped off me when i got home as my mam and dad had discovered I had sneaked out.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

i was at an exhibition of photos from a 2 tone tour and got chatting with an ex-skinhead about how fucken violent it was at the time when youth cult ID meant something. you cd get hassled cos of the clothes/haircut you had and there were riots in our town between skins, punks, mods and smelly stupid bikers. top laugh!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Guy N Smith?



richard allen, peter cave's chopper and mam, the bike from hell and i cringe to confess rosie dixon night nurse!


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## trevhagl (Jan 5, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> All Skrewed Up? Got it on Chiswick original vinyl, good album.


shhhhh you'll get grief too!


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## trevhagl (Jan 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> richard allen, peter cave's chopper and mam, the bike from hell and i cringe to confess rosie dixon night nurse!



never quite got fiction written by a 65 year old bloke, sinister!!


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## trevhagl (Jan 5, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> why would that be the case? The BNP membership base even at its height wasn't based on youth, where as the NF recruited well from them.



i think the middle aged nazis in Barking are probably the very same, 20+ years on....


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## albionism (Jan 5, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> Sounds was the only one to care about real music


"LOOK-IN" was the best!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 5, 2012)

i believe the advert song went 'look out for look in!' clever eh?


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> got to admit to being more kirs kristofferson these days! 'if you dont like hank williams you can kiss my ass!' now thats PUNK attitude trev!



hard to beat for his lyrics and also remarkable for his left-ward drift as the years passed by.


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## Deareg (Jan 6, 2012)

LiamO said:


> hard to beat for his lyrics and also remarkable for his left-ward drift as the years passed by.


Kris or Hank?


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## LiamO (Jan 6, 2012)

Kris. he has written some of my all-time favorite songs. Also some surprising ones... i only found out yesterday he wrote 'One day at a time'.

But Hank was deffo the first Rock-star/punk-rocker


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## The39thStep (Jan 6, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> steps, the majority of BM and YNF lads i unfortunately knew were either too young to vote or couldnt be arsed but yes it was about street presence and having being a tough 'soccer grouping' or 'footy firm' as the cogniscenti call them!



That is an entirely different point.


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## The39thStep (Jan 6, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> i think the middle aged nazis in Barking are probably the very same, 20+ years on....



which middle aged Nazis? Nazis in the BNP are a minority. Majority of BNP membership has no previous relation to that old school.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> which middle aged Nazis? Nazis in the BNP are a minority. Majority of BNP membership has no previous relation to that old school.


no previous relation... So you're saying that by joining the bnp they develop a relationship to that auld school


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## trevhagl (Jan 6, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> which middle aged Nazis? Nazis in the BNP are a minority. Majority of BNP membership has no previous relation to that old school.


how do you know that, personally interviewing em?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 6, 2012)

LiamO said:


> hard to beat for his lyrics and also remarkable for his left-ward drift as the years passed by.


he was great tho not everyone thinks so. i bought a cd for my mam which she has never played as its 'depresisng.' shes a big manilow fan tho in mitigation! 'dont look so sad, i know its over ...' lovely!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 6, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> That is an entirely different point.



steps, from what?


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## The39thStep (Jan 7, 2012)

trevhagl said:


> how do you know that, personally interviewing em?



Also to Pickman

Goodwin's New British Fascism and his previous reserach is really worth reading for its analysis of BNP membership, most of which is based on interviews.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 8, 2012)

editor said:


> Did you ever go to any of the Bridgehouse oi gigs? To describe Bushell's take on the crowd as "romanticised" would be a breathtaking understatement.
> 
> That said, it was the late 70s, early 80s, and the East End wasn't exactly renown for its racial tolerance. I lived in Plaistow for a while and that was the grimmest place I'd ever lived. Real NF territory.



Hi editor - one of my best mates was born and raised in Plaistow. He doesn't remember a huge amount about NF activism there at that time (what with being a young 'un and all that), but he's mentioned that there was a *lot* of "casual" racism going on (and plenty of racist abuse/action going on every time there was a West Ham game on at Upton Park). Thankfully Plaistow these days is a much more diverse mix than what he describes that time as being like (another of my best mates has lived there for years).


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 8, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Didn't the other original members of skrewdriver leave when ISD started to take the group in an explicitly fash direction?



Hi mate - the original Skrewdriver drummer John "Grinny" Grinton, although not joining the "new" Skrewdriver, joined the NF at the exact same time as ISD.  He later was a fairly early-on member of the BNP, and I understand that he continues to be so to this day.  (This was all covered in an interview he did with the punk77 site a few years ago).


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## malatesta32 (Jan 8, 2012)

what was the situation with the hammers fans, ICF and NF. with cass pennant being so prominent in the firm did they temper their racism or was it a case of 'hes black but hes okay really'? i thought micky smiths 'want some aggro' was very good on original skinheads but vague on racism. in fact all the hooly books ive read are very disingenuous over racism. bloody soccer.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> what was the situation with the hammers fans, ICF and NF. with cass pennant being so prominent in the firm did they temper their racism or was it a case of 'hes black but hes okay really'? i thought micky smiths 'want some aggro' was very good on original skinheads but vague on racism. in fact all the hooly books ive read are very disingenuous over racism. bloody soccer.



Hi Mal  - well, I'd really need to speak to my best mate about this again to get the full details, but from what I can remember from our conversations over the years on this (as a regular attendee to Upton Park himself as a child), there were always NF paper sellers etc in attendance, and I don't think it would be an utterly riduculous thing to suggest that at least some of the West Ham top boys would have been full-blown NF members. However - I'm sure there many other Urbanites who can fill you in with much more detail on this one


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## malatesta32 (Jan 8, 2012)

cheers melly! i read steven hickmotts autobiog that was basically a self-justification of the headhunters trial and it massively glossed over any connection to C18/NF/BNP so its difficult to get the real picture of far right activity from that side of things. it does not seem unusual that black soccer supporters stand with racists on their team's side, ie, man city kool kats and MCR NF, headhunters and a few black fans etc. not my area tho!


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm pretty sure ICF chased the NF out and have remained pretty hostile to the far right since (more in the 'no politics' sense than the antifascist sense).


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## butchersapron (Jan 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i believe the advert song went 'look out for look in!' clever eh?



Only one team on the ball.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 9, 2012)

up until around 75 there were still a few NF guys in the make up of West Ham but it had mostly gone by 77/78 , probably with the punk movement expanding , the ICF was most definitely not considered to be a racist group and to my knowledge none of the key guys were involved in any way by then .

Also Cass was still in his mid teens when the NF was at its strongest and ICF in its infancy .


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## hammerntongues (Jan 10, 2012)

Found this while googling something else ........

In East London, it was a different story - the British Movement were taken out of the frame by the Inter City Firm. In early 1982, Skully and other Oi regulars had organised a march protesting about the jailing of their fellow ICF member Cass Pennant. The BM threatened individuals, putting pressure on them to cancel this "march for a nigger". The following Monday the ICF had been planning to take on Tottenham fans (as West Ham were playing Spurs that night). Instead they confronted and smashed the East London neo-Nazis who were drinking in the Boleyn Arms. They were never a significant presence on the West Ham terraces again, but they remained a problem elsewhere.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 10, 2012)

It came from an article about The Upstarts / Rejects.

The Cockney Rejects were also the real deal, this time the sons of dockers from London’s East End, but their music wasn’t political. Thirty years of lame Labour local government had stripped them of any world view except cynicism. Their songs were about East End life, boozers, battles, police harassment and football.


Unlike the Upstarts’, the Rejects’ first following wasn’t largely skinhead; in fact at first skins didn’t like them. Stinky’s school pals the Rubber Glove firm aside, The Rejects crew came from football and consisted largely of West Ham chaps attracted by Vince’s involvement and disillusioned Sham and Menace fans. Famous faces included Gary Dickle, Johnny Butler, Carlton Leach, Andy Russell, Andy Swallow, Hoxton Tom, Binnsy, H and Wellsy. Even as early as November 1979, their Hammers support was so strong that mass terrace chants of ‘Cockney Rejects – oh, oh’ were clearly audible on televised football matches – to the tune of Gary Glitter’s – Hello Hello I’m Back Again’.

Many of the East End Glory Boys swelled their ranks a little later, realising for the first time that here was a band exactly the same as them. 

The first stand-alone Oi scene developed around the Cockney Rejects and their regular gig venue, the Bridge House in Canning Town, East London. It became the focus for an entire subculture. In 1980, this was the LIFE!

None of these faces were “Nazis”. Most of them weren’t political at all, beyond the sense of voting Labour (if they bothered to vote at all) out of a sense of tradition. A tiny percentage was interested in the extremes of either right or left. As a breed they were natural conservatives. They believed in standing on their own two feet. They were patriotic, and proud of their class and their immediate culture. They looked good and dressed sharp. It was important not to look like a scruff or a student. Their heroes were boxers and footballers, not union leaders. Unlicensed boxing was a big draw, as were the dogs and stag comedians like Jimmy Jones and Jimmy Fagg. They liked to fight around football matches – the West Ham ICF (Inter City Firm) were fully represented at most local Rejects gigs. The young men oozed machismo, but some of the women were just as tough. But they weren’t mugs. These were bright kids and a surprisingly large number of them have gone on to carve out successful businesses in fields as diverse as the music industry, pornography and clothing manufacture.

They’re the ones who didn’t end up in jail of course. 

They related to the Cockney Rejects because at the time at least the Rejects mirrored their audience. Rarely in rock history have a band and their followers been so identical.

The Rejects and the Upstarts had plenty in common – shared management, shared experiences of the Old Bill, shared class backgrounds – and were soon identified (by me) in the music press as the start of something different, a new more class conscious punk variant, which was known at first as ‘Real Punk’ or ‘New Punk’ and which had little in common with 1979’s self-styled punk rockers in their second-hand images and wally bondage pants. It was a pairing they obviously approved of with both bands frequently jamming together at each other’s gigs. Unlike Sham, the Rejects had little Nazi trouble. They wrote off the threat from the British Movement (we called them the German Movement) in their first Sounds interview. “We can handle them,” said Stinky. “If anyone comes to the gigs and wants to have a row, we’ll have to row. Pursey couldn’t do that. We’re not gonna take no bollocks.” 

The only other major run-in they ever had with the far right was at Barking station the following February, and once again the master race contingent got bashed. Most of the Rejects’ London gigs were trouble free, especially the ones at the Bridge House, which was to London Oi! what the Roxy had been to Punk. Managed by Terry Murphy and his tough boxer sons, the Bridge never had a serious punch-up or any sieg-heiling. No one dared step out of line against the Murphys. Son Glen, the former barman, can now be seen playing George Green on TV’s London’s Burning.

The Angelic Upstarts also fought – and won - a couple of sharp battles against the far right. They played numerous Rock Against Racism gigs too, including one at Leeds where the band sported SWP ‘Disband The SPG’ badges. Like the Rejects their real ag came from other areas – principally their manager, Keith Bell. Sacked by the band when he started to knock them about, Bell and his henchmen set about trying to intimidate Upstart fans, even assaulting people buying their records, before threatening Mensi’s mother, smashing her house windows and making threatening and abusive phone calls to her. Reprisal incidents included Mensi and one time Upstarts drummer Decca Wade smashing one of the Bell firm’s car windows and a midnight visit to Bell’s own home by Decca’s dad, club comedian Derek Wade and Mensi’s brother-in-law Billy Wardropper who blasted one of Bell’s henchmen in the leg with a sawn-off shotgun. Hitting back, Bell threatened to kill Wade Senior. Three of his cronies set fire to a stable belonging to Mensi’s sister causing almost £5K worth of damage. In ensuing court cases both Bell and Billy Wardropper were jailed while Decca’s dad copped a year’s suspended sentence. Presiding Judge Hall told the Upstarts team: “I accept that all of you suffered a severe amount of provocation, which was none of your seeking. But at the same time I have a duty to condemn the use of firearms, particularly a sawn-off shotgun.” The Upstarts’ recorded their opinion in ‘Shotgun Solution’: ‘Shotgun blasts ring in my ears/Shoot some scum who live by fear/A lot of good men will do some time/For a fucking cunt without a spine’.

With the Rejects, football was the trouble. And it was understandable because they’d been fanatically pro-West Ham aggro from the word go. Even at their debut Bridge House gig they decked the stage out with a huge red banner displaying the Union Jack, the West Ham crossed hammers and the motif ‘West Side’ (which was that part of the West Ham ground then most favoured by the Irons’ most violent fans). Their second hit was a version of the West Ham anthem ‘Bubbles’ which charted in the run-up to West Ham’s Cup Final Victory in the early summer of 1980. On the b-side was the ICF-pleasing ‘West Side Boys’ which included lines like: ‘We meet in the Boelyn every Saturday/Talk about the teams that we’re gonna do today/Steel-capped Doctor Martens and iron bars/Smash the coaches and do ’em in the cars’. 

It was a red rag to testosterone-charged bulls all over the country. At North London’s Electric Ballroom, 200 of West Ham’s finest mob-charged less than fifty Arsenal and smacked them clean out of the venue. But ultra-violence at a Birmingham gig really spelt their undoing. The audience at the Cedar Club was swelled by a mob of Birmingham City skinheads who terrace-chanted throughout the support set from the Kidz Next Door (featuring Grant Fleming, now a leftwing film maker, and Pursey’s kid brother Robbie). By the time the Rejects came on stage there were over 200 Brum City skins at the front hurling abuse. During the second number they started hurling plastic glasses. Then a real glass smashed on stage. Stinky Turner responded by saying: “If anyone wants to chuck glasses they can come outside and I’ll knock seven shades of shit out of ya”. That was it, glasses and ashtrays came from all directions. One hit Vince and as a Brum skinhead started shouting “Come on”, Micky dived into the crowd and put him on his back. Although outnumbered more than ten to one, the Rejects and their entourage drove the Brummy mob right across the hall, and finally out of it altogether. Under a hail of missiles Mickey Geggus sustained a head injury that needed nine stitches and left him with what looked like a Fred Perry design above his right eye. Grant Fleming, a veteran of such notorious riots as Sham at Hendon and Madness at Hatfield, described the night’s violence as the worst he’d ever seen. 

Taken to the local hospital for treatment, Geggus had to bunk out of a twenty-foot high window when ‘tooled-up’ mates of the injured Brum City fans came looking for him. Back at the gig, the Londoners emerged triumphant from the fighting only to discover all their gear had been ripped off – total value, two grand. The next morning, the Cockney contingent split into two vans – one that went on to the next gig at Huddersfield, the other containing Mickey and Grant that went cruising round the city looking for any likely punters who might know the whereabouts of their stolen gear. Incidents that morning in Wolverhampton Road, Albury, involving Geggus, three locals and an iron bar, resulted in Mickey being charged with malicious wounding. Eight months later, both he and Grant had the luck of the devil to walk away with suspended sentences.

Maybe as insurance, in the summer of ’80, the Rejects played two

Bridge House benefit gigs for the Prisoners Rights Organisation, PROP, arranged by me and Hoxton Tom with the help of Terry Murphy. Tom’s aunt was involved with London PROP because his uncle, Steven Smeeth, had been jailed for his part in George Davis’s doomed comeback caper. The gigs were two of the best I’d ever seen the band play.


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## Fedayn (Jan 10, 2012)

Hoxton Tom posts on a skinhead board I go on, sound fella with a really good line in stories.


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## intersol32 (Jan 11, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> Unlike the Upstarts’, the Rejects’ first following wasn’t largely skinhead; in fact at first skins didn’t like them. Stinky’s school pals the Rubber Glove firm aside, The Rejects crew came from football and consisted largely of West Ham chaps attracted by Vince’s involvement and disillusioned Sham and Menace fans. Famous faces included Gary Dickle, Johnny Butler, Carlton Leach, Andy Russell, Andy Swallow, Hoxton Tom, Binnsy, H and Wellsy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## krink (Jan 11, 2012)

i think it's a common misconception that football hooligans are all right-wingers. don't get me wrong, a load of them are from my experiences but I've also met a few who have good politics even antifascist/radical politics and even more who are not political at all and just like the rush.


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## dennisr (Jan 11, 2012)

krink said:


> i think it's a common misconception that football hooligans are all right-wingers. don't get me wrong, a load of them are from my experiences but I've also met a few who have good politics even antifascist/radical politics and even more who are not political at all and just like the rush.



There was an ongoing conflict between hard right and hard left among 6.57 Pompey fans for quite some time - useful considering the strength of the right in the city - apparently calling cards included "we support derek hatton" on during the Liverpool struggle (  ).
I used to work with a fella - Basher - genuine looney type of leftie and big with Portsmouth hooligans.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 11, 2012)

Hooligans are just working class lads, their politics reflect this. The myth that hooligans = nazis is bollocks. Some outfits are long associated with the right, some the left, most don't give a fuck either way.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 11, 2012)

I think that the influence from the right in the 70`s was FAR greater than from the left and probably still is , It is also a much simpler doctrine to sell to dissatisfied youth .

Although hooliganism still exists in pockets it is all but gone in comparison to the late 70`s through late 80`s . The other factor to consider is the dynamic of the football fan , in my day as a teenager it was predominately male and working class , even as a school kid I could afford to go home and away on money I earnt from a paper round , if I didn`t pay for my son to come with me , there is no way he could afford to go to football regularly . The whole emergence of the ICF was on the back of Kelloggs vouchers that you could collect from breakfast cereals and exchange for rail tickets .


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## cantsin (Jan 11, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> It came from an article about The Upstarts / Rejects.
> 
> The Cockney Rejects were also the real deal, this time the sons of dockers from London’s East End, but their music wasn’t political. Thirty years of lame Labour local government had stripped them of any world view except cynicism. Their songs were about East End life, boozers, battles, police harassment and football.
> 
> ...



Grant Fleming, a good lefty, went on from the Rejects days  to be a main ICF face, featured in the daft docu where they had a staged row with Millwall involving brooms etc ( then went on to acid house / Primal Cream Photographer, ageless raver , Loaded bod etc etc -  did more before he was 45 than most manage in a lifetime, always with grin on his face )


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## hammerntongues (Jan 11, 2012)

cantsin said:


> Grant Fleming, a good lefty, went on from the Rejects days to be a main ICF face, featured in the daft docu where they had a staged row with Millwall involving brooms etc ( then went on to acid house / Primal Cream Photographer, ageless raver , Loaded bod etc etc - did more before he was 45 than most manage in a lifetime, always with grin on his face )


 
" a knockers tale " more ICF in that doc too

 a  good friend , sat next to him at school , in fact seeing him for a beer in the next week or so he has been living in Mexico but back for a bit   ( btw you forgot bass player  in Lords of the New Church)


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## Fedayn (Jan 11, 2012)

hammerntongues said:


> ( btw you forgot bass player in Lords of the New Church)



To be fair they were very forgettable.


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## hammerntongues (Jan 11, 2012)

they had a problem being lumped in with the Goth thing but you don`t get much more R n R than Stiv Bators .


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Hooligans are just working class lads, their politics reflect this. The myth that hooligans = nazis is bollocks. Some outfits are long associated with the right, some the left, most don't give a fuck either way.



One of the "Chelsea Headhunters" (who older Lambeth-ites may remember because his daddy was a Tory councillor here) was as right-wing as fuck. He was also as middle-class as they came, and used to put on a working-class south London accent when hanging around with the skinheads around Clapham Common station in the late '70s-early '80s (who called themselves, originally enough, "The Clapham Skins", bless!), who were a pretty good representation of the political divide within what you might call the "skinhead movement" even then, some being rightit, some being leftist, and some not giving a fuck about politics.

Never used to see much NF or BM presence when I went to West Ham games, but perhaps they didn't hang round the gates to the chicken run.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 11, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> To be fair they were very forgettable.



Another band who suffered from the Curse of James.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2012)

spent all night last night rereading stinkys autobio and he refers to BM as the German movement. and yr right about the pro-cass march. still rubbish apart from the 1st 'album.' and they had a drummer called 'nigel'! crivvens!


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2017)

Well this thread was informative... not!

Close Shave dodgy, y/n?


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## killer b (Feb 8, 2017)

Generally if you have to ask...

the third link when googling them sez 'yeah'

close shave | Anti-Fascist News


> Paul Dirk, a member of Close Shave, also played for neo-Nazi bands like Razors Edge and English Rose who released albums on well-known Nazi labels like Dim Records. They are known for other acts like Panzerknacker, Ultima Thule, Combat 84, and Celtic Warrior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Magnus McGinty (Feb 8, 2017)

I have been researching, that article won't show up on my phone for some reason.


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