# 34K a year. That is big bucks



## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

To join the RAF as an ICT bod. 

Pros: loadsa money and first class training

Cons: It's the fucking military. I'd not serve on a jury so will money sway me to a military position? Ideological objections. Plus I am an unhealthy twat and basic training might break me.

I've been trolled by an RAF recruitment ad. Damn it.


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## Balbi (Dec 16, 2009)

Bob Ainsworth will probably rob your job within six months


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## girasol (Dec 16, 2009)

34k a year in London isn't a lot of bucks though...

Just join and sabotage it


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## kyser_soze (Dec 16, 2009)

I'd be happy with £34k, even in London...plenty in fact IIRC from the days of a bygone era when I earned such sums


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## keithy (Dec 16, 2009)

34k is loads! I know London is expensive but it's not so expensive to render 34k as 'not a lot of bucks' 

I'd happily compromise my moral standing or whatever to get that kind of money at the moment. or would you get shot at? I dun understand


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

34K would mean I was earning more than my mum and brother combined. But I'd be servicing the mechanisms of effete flyboy death dealers.

So tempting though. I could even justify it to m yself by saying to my conscience that the skills I'm learning are going to be vital CTR.


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## ymu (Dec 16, 2009)

Is it London based? I thought the MOD was spread out all over. £34k is still decent for London anyway. What planet do you people live on? 

Take their training and use it against them. You know it's the right thing to do.


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## heinous seamus (Dec 16, 2009)

I'd be happy with 12k and a job where no one hassles me


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## strung out (Dec 16, 2009)

Iemanja said:


> 34k a year in London isn't a lot of bucks though...



maybe not with a family, but you'll find an awful lot of people who would bite your arm off for a 34k/year salary, even in london. tbh, i'd bite your arm off for a 20k/year salary in london right now.


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## keithy (Dec 16, 2009)

i would kill the troops myself for a salary of 12k


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## trashpony (Dec 16, 2009)

Would you be based in the UK or have to go and support troops where they're fighting?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Dec 16, 2009)

Iemanja said:


> 34k a year in London isn't a lot of bucks though...
> 
> Just join and sabotage it



Sadly true. While I was working, knowing that I was about to be made redundant, I laughed at 35K jobs offers 'pish'. Now, actually redundant, in the face of fuck all out there I would gladly take one (but would continue looking about).


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## Voley (Dec 16, 2009)

heinous seamus said:


> I'd be happy with 12k and a job where no one hassles me



That's me essentially, too.


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## keithy (Dec 16, 2009)

seriously, though, money comes and goes and is quite empty. You would be better off but if I went against what I believed in in such a way it would take something away from my overall happiness that money can't really fix. I am skint now but I live in such a way where I don't need to feel guilty or conflicted or anything, and when going through rough patches I can think positively about myself and my life and try to make it clear. Taking a job where you felt like you were essentially colluding on something so shite could potentially not be worth it.

I don't think I would actually take it.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 16, 2009)

How long is the initial sign-on period?


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## Geri (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd not serve on a jury so will money sway me to a military position?



What's one got to do with the other?


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

kyser_soze said:


> How long is the initial sign-on period?



No idea. I simply got an ad posted on the JobCentre website. I've other plans, but it is tempting. Reading the ad I was 'Man, that looks an easy and profitable way out of this provin cial shithole'


I bet they are lying and I'd end up cleaning bird shit off of shitty aircraft


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

Geri said:


> What's one got to do with the other?



non servium ennit. But 34K! Man the devil comes offering treats


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## Voley (Dec 16, 2009)

I bet they'd be awful to work for. Not just the end result but the actual day-to-day job. Drive you mental, I bet.


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## Geri (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> non servium ennit. But 34K! Man the devil comes offering treats



I'd love to do jury service - but they have never called me.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 16, 2009)

What's the pension like Dotty?


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> What's the pension like Dotty?



No ideas.


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## Geri (Dec 16, 2009)

Well, if you claim to have any principles at all I don't think you should even be thinking about it.


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## Voley (Dec 16, 2009)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> What's the pension like Dotty?



They'll pay it to Dotty's dog when he takes one for the team in Helmand.


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## Laney (Dec 16, 2009)

Take the money, take the training, snatch back what you can of your soul and run.

(this is my plan anyway)


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## newme (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> To join the RAF as an ICT bod.
> 
> Pros: loadsa money and first class training
> 
> ...



I saw looooads of these type jobs come up near me before in different IT roles. Very tempting for the cash involved, especially when your unable to even find a shit job let alone one in IT. Still couldnt bring myself to do it tho.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

Geri said:


> Well, if you claim to have any principles at all I don't think you should even be thinking about it.



yeah, I'll no doubt have to not do it. The ad was so enchanting though. Trolled by the RAF! damn me to hell


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## TheDave (Dec 16, 2009)

I'm unprincipled and live in a shithole town I want to get out of but have no IT skills beyond hiding my porn stash.

Reckon it's worth a shot?


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 16, 2009)

dotcommunist in the raf 

it might be a war but they ain't that desperate

maybe they could take you on as some sort of drinking mascot of something


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## newme (Dec 16, 2009)

TheDave said:


> I'm unprincipled and live in a shithole town I want to get out of but have no IT skills beyond hiding my porn stash.
> 
> Reckon it's worth a shot?



If you dont have anything being in the forces then why not. They can only say no.


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## Wolveryeti (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'd not serve on a jury so will money sway me to a military position?


What's wrong with jury service? It's awesome - they pay you to decide people's fates!


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## Geri (Dec 16, 2009)

Wolveryeti said:


> What's wrong with jury service? It's awesome - they pay you to decide people's fates!



I thought you just got expenses.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

Decent salary, probably get accomadation and food in with it, get trained to a high standard, pension possibly. What are your other options that are stopping you?


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

Wolveryeti said:


> What's wrong with jury service? It's awesome - they pay you to decide people's fates!



The judiciary is part of the triumvirate of oppression maaaan


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 16, 2009)

Public sector IT? Worse, the RAF, which will be the bitch of the proper forces when it comes to squeezing and centralising back office. You'd end up either TUPEd to HP or simply dropped from a plane to reduce the numbers.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

TUPEd in the RAF???


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> TUPEd in the RAF???


 
Civilian role, I'm assuming.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Civilian role, I'm assuming.



You've heard of people being TUPE'd out of the forces? Ever happened?


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## xes (Dec 16, 2009)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> What's the pension like Dotty?



do military people live long enough to have a pension?


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

xes said:


> do military people live long enough to have a pension?



Flyboys and groundcrew generally don't face the sort of attrition faced by infantry. Never heard the phrase 'You do the flying, infantry does the dying'?'


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> You've heard of people being TUPE'd out of the forces? Ever happened?


 
The explosion of outsourcing in the public sector over the next few years will astound you all. Big central govt spenders like MoD - absolutely, in back office stuff like ICT and estates, what can't be privatised will be outsourced.


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## London_Calling (Dec 16, 2009)

The RAF will be changing hugely after the election when the costing decisions will be taken. It has to lose at least a base, a squadron of Tornados and a shed load of backroom. Hell, its entire role and capability might very well be redefined. Things won't be like this again.


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## mattie (Dec 16, 2009)

There's a huge programme at bid stage with MoD for a consortium to run their logistics network software.  MoD, quite sensibly, want shot of the hassle of maintaining various bits of kit from multiple providers.  The successful consortium will probably be US companies with a UK sub-office, which isn't very good on the job front.


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## ymu (Dec 16, 2009)

Maurice Picarda said:


> The explosion of outsourcing in the public sector over the next few years will astound you all. Big central govt spenders like MoD - absolutely, in back office stuff like ICT and estates, what can't be privatised will be outsourced.


Will? Will? Jaysus, the privatisation of government has gone so far already even C*p*ta employees are slightly embarrassed about it in meetings. It's fucking unbelievable.

Astounded? I'm fucking furious.


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 16, 2009)

ymu said:


> Will? Will? Jaysus, the privatisation of government has gone so far already even C*p*ta employees are slightly embarrassed about it in meetings. It's fucking unbelievable.
> 
> Astounded? I'm fucking furious.


 
There's much, much, more to come. But you already knew that.

The pushback on public sector pensions in the PBR is aimed at assuaging the fears private sector employers will have about transferred pensions risk.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

I bet those MOD expense accounts for wining and dining contractors will go unmolested.


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## mattie (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I bet those MOD expense accounts for wining and dining contractors will go unmolested.



Other way round, surely?


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## ymu (Dec 16, 2009)

Maurice Picarda said:


> There's much, much, more to come. But you already knew that.
> 
> The pushback on public sector pensions in the PBR is aimed at assuaging the fears private sector employers will have about transferred pensions risk.


See, I don't even know what that last sentence means, but I know it's going to make me even angrier when you explain.

And yeah - I did know. It's been a fucking avalanche recently. C*p*ta is virtually running DH as far as I can tell, along with a group of hanger-on consultancies who just don't seem to know what they're doing at all. Outsourcing might have its uses, but when there's already a shortage of capacity in the skills required, it's not very effective at all. You get the expensive executives and huge budgets but no actual content. And then those of us actually in the public sector, and getting paid accordingly, get to pick up the pieces when they fuck up.

Nuts.


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## ivebeenhigh (Dec 16, 2009)

are you sure its 34k?

http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/ictspecialist.cfm


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## ymu (Dec 16, 2009)

ivebeenhigh said:


> are you sure its 34k?
> 
> http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/ictspecialist.cfm


DotC might be at a different entry level. The age range for that one is 16 and up.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

ivebeenhigh said:


> are you sure its 34k?
> 
> http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/ictspecialist.cfm



Are you telling me a JobCenter ad might be lying to me? Surely not


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## ivebeenhigh (Dec 16, 2009)

ymu said:


> DotC might be at a different entry level. The age range for that one is 16 and up.



what level was the job advert at DotCom?


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## Maurice Picarda (Dec 16, 2009)

It did sound pretty high for a job where they train you. Jobs where experience isn't required and which welcome sociopaths (even those with a record for liberating frozen desserts) tend to pay in the teens and low twenties.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

Please note this trade is receiving a high volume of applications and is currently over-subscribed.

Pay after one year: £17,140


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## pboi (Dec 16, 2009)

34k is plenty for ldn man 

take the job


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

ymu said:


> DotC might be at a different entry level. The age range for that one is 16 and up.



When I looked (albeit years ago as a Tiff) it was pretty much the same, you all entered at the same level.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

Because of this:



> No 1 Radio School is a Microsoft- and Cisco-accredited academy, and the training you will receive is recognised by a wide range of civilian employers and backed by transferable qualifications.



If you're free for a few years, I'd go for it.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

ivebeenhigh said:


> what level was the job advert at DotCom?



It was asking for 4 GCSE grades at c or above


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## ymu (Dec 16, 2009)

Job Centre lied to you. 

I'd go for compo.


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## ivebeenhigh (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> It was asking for 4 GCSE grades at c or above



which I think is what this job is too.  no way a job requiring that would be 34K.

how do they get away with falsely advertising at job centres?


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## mozzy (Dec 16, 2009)

keithy said:


> seriously, though, money comes and goes and is quite empty. You would be better off but if I went against what I believed in in such a way it would take something away from my overall happiness that money can't really fix. I am skint now but I live in such a way where I don't need to feel guilty or conflicted or anything, and when going through rough patches I can think positively about myself and my life and try to make it clear. Taking a job where you felt like you were essentially colluding on something so shite could potentially not be worth it.
> 
> I don't think I would actually take it.



^^^ These are my thoughts exactly. Money doesn't buy happiness. I have had jobs where i worked with a bunch of wankers and had to leave as i couldn't cope. However, some people don't mind and just get on with it. It will depend on whether you can still be happy at home when you hate your job. 

That's if you do hate this job - why don't you apply for it to see what the folk are like there if you get interviewed. At least that way you will have a better insight into the job. If you find at the interview they are all morans, you won't always be thinking "what if?" if you realise the job is not for you.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

I don't think it's about the money though, you're getting a full recognised career path and qualification too.


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## pboi (Dec 16, 2009)

yeh. short term relative pain for a lifetime of new doors opening for you.

you dont fuck with education, its like Ron Burgundy.  The Balls.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I don't think it's about the money though, you're getting a full recognised career path and qualification too.



Not to mention getting up and out of the flyspeck provincial  nowhere you are living. Temptation. I feel a bit like christ being offered the dominion of the earth by the Devil


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## ivebeenhigh (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I don't think it's about the money though, you're getting a full recognised career path and qualification too.



how useful is that back on civvy street?  have had CV's from ex-military before, always preferred someone with relevant industry experience.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

ivebeenhigh said:


> how useful is that back on civvy street?  have had CV's from ex-military before, always preferred someone with relevant industry experience.



CISCO and MCSE with relevant military experience?? Very relevant.

At least you know they've got experience instead of just some Milkman that went off to do an MCSE cos they had 4k hanging around and fancied a career change.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Not to mention getting up and out of the flyspeck provincial  nowhere you are living. Temptation. I feel a bit like christ being offered the dominion of the earth by the Devil



You could spend 4 years in college, not being paid and hanging around with wanky students and walking out with less...

More relevant is walking out with a certificate but fuck all on the job experience... which is the problem.

I tried to do the same with the Navy, years ago, but they wouldn't accept me cos I was a conscientious objector apparently... cos I refused to pay Poll Tax!!


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## ivebeenhigh (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> CISCO and MCSE with relevant military experience?? Very relevant.
> 
> At least you know they've got experience instead of just some Milkman



1) IME relevant industry experience is vital.  CISCO and MCSE are useful in that they show a certain level of apptitude, but as you point out most anyone can get the qual...I've seen lots of people with those qualifications that I wouldn't employ at an entry level, let alone the level they are told that they deserve by the adverts/training companies/recruitment companies
2) I used to be a milkman (albeit till I was 16, perhaps I was a milkboy, though that sounds wrong)


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

ivebeenhigh said:


> 1) IME relevant industry experience is vital.  CISCO and MCSE are useful in that they show a certain level of apptitude, but as you point out most anyone can get the qual...I've seen lots of people with those qualifications that I wouldn't employ at an entry level, let alone the level they are told that they deserve by the adverts/training companies/recruitment companies
> 2) I used to be a milkman (albeit till I was 16, perhaps I was a milkboy, though that sounds wrong)



I used to be a Market Trader... I didn't swap that for IT though I had a good few years of hoops to jump through as I guess you did 

Relevant industry experience? Really? I went from a Data Capture Environment... To Sega (yup, Sonic) .. to a Hedge Fund. My skills were transportable. (although I never bothered actually doing MCSE or CISCO exams)


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## pboi (Dec 16, 2009)

haha, that is an awesome path


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

pboi said:


> haha, that is an awesome path



The way I got into IT is funny too


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## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 16, 2009)

I know someone who was an estate agent going nowhere, joined up and now owns two houses and is having an MBA funded.
Another who is retiring somewhere sunny at about 50 and another making a fortune out of private speaking...  I have to say they've done quite well out of it but some of their friends have not were not so lucky 

You're right DC, it's a dilemma.. if you take the Queen's shilling you do the Queen's bidding.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I used to be a Market Trader... I didn't swap that for IT though I had a good few years of hoops to jump through as I guess you did
> 
> Relevant industry experience? Really? I went from a Data Capture Environment... To Sega (yup, Sonic) .. to a Hedge Fund. My skills were transportable. (although I never bothered actually doing MCSE or CISCO exams)



Sonic the Hedgefund


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Sonic the Hedgefund



Good work


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## pboi (Dec 16, 2009)

MBA funded by the forces?


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

pboi said:


> MBA funded by the forces?



Me? No. I don't even have a GCSE. Nor any other qualifications, MCSE, CISCO or anything.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> To join the RAF as an ICT bod.
> 
> Pros: loadsa money and first class training
> 
> ...



You should do it. It'll make a man of you.


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## pboi (Dec 16, 2009)

nah the fella who has trwo houses and getting an mba funded 

you just sound like an enigma!!


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## zenie (Dec 16, 2009)

I think a lot of people are doing it these days, my niece is going in, better than a copper I suppose.  

But really....what have you got to lose, you might not even get in, RAF don't take people with asthma or any visual impairments btw. One of my grandad's was in the RAF, the other in the Army.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> Not to mention getting up and out of the flyspeck provincial  nowhere you are living. Temptation. I feel a bit like christ being offered the dominion of the earth by the Devil



You're not _actually_ thinking this though are you?


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## TheDave (Dec 16, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You're not _actually_ thinking this though are you?



Living in a shithole with few prospects often makes the armed forces appealing. It's a steady job that's elsewhere. Risk and moral considerations aside.


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## Idris2002 (Dec 16, 2009)

Iemanja said:


> 34k a year in London isn't a lot of bucks though...
> 
> Just join and sabotage it



Yeah. Soviets of Workers, Peasants, Soldiers and Sailors, remember?


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2009)

TheDave said:


> Living in a shithole with few prospects often makes the armed forces appealing. It's a steady job that's elsewhere. Risk and moral considerations aside.



I know that can be how it's perceived, but in this individual case, I'm not so sure.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Dec 16, 2009)

pboi said:


> nah the fella who has trwo houses and getting an mba funded



Yup, true fact. This is for an officer though, I'm not sure how much education and training is offered to your average squaddie but the skills learned are supposedly of direct benefit for them so they fund it.

Edit: actually having looked here it would appear that it's not entirely funded by MOD


> ...The scheme allows one claim per financial year (Apr - Apr) and a maximum of 3 claims per person. Funding is available in two tiers - the lower tier of up to £1,000 per claim for those with at least four year's eligible service; the higher tier of £2,000 for those with at least eight year's eligible service. The individual must pay a personal contribution of 20% of the course cost, or the remainder of the cost of the course if it exceeds the relevant tier limit


So not quite what i thought but still quite useful
But never mind all that Dotty, they won't let you wear a hat all day so I don't think it's the place for you


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## 8115 (Dec 16, 2009)

It's the military.  Based on my feelings about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq I would boycott on principle.  You might feel differently though.


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I know that can be how it's perceived, but in this individual case, I'm not so sure.



Still better than living in a flea pit student house earning fuck all to get a certificate for something you have fuck all experience doing..


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> 34K would mean I was earning more than my mum and brother combined. But I'd be servicing the mechanisms of effete flyboy death dealers.


Isn't most of that done by dedicated personnel supplied by the various avionics and armaments companies that supply the death-dealing kit?


> So tempting though. I could even justify it to m yself by saying to my conscience that the skills I'm learning are going to be vital CTR.


Vital to sabotage *their* military advantage, comrade!


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

8115 said:


> It's the military.  Based on my feelings about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq I would boycott on principle.  You might feel differently though.



It's in a way, a kindof backoffice job though... not like you're out shooting ragheads is it


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2009)

xes said:


> do military people live long enough to have a pension?



Way too many for the MoD's liking.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> I used to be a Market Trader... I didn't swap that for IT though I had a good few years of hoops to jump through as I guess you did
> 
> Relevant industry experience? Really? I went from a Data Capture Environment... To Sega (yup, Sonic) .. to a Hedge Fund. My skills were transportable. (although I never bothered actually doing MCSE or CISCO exams)



Hedgehog to Hedge Fund in a single leap. Smooth!


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## pboi (Dec 16, 2009)

I am really impressed by that support. ty for the info


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Still better than living in a flea pit student house earning fuck all to get a certificate for something you have fuck all experience doing..



tbh I wouldn't say so, but that's not the universal perception


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## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> tbh I wouldn't say so, but that's not the universal perception



Being in a position for the last 10 years where I have been involved in IT recruitment... actual real world experience is paramount, not certificates.


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## 8115 (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> It's in a way, a kindof backoffice job though... not like you're out shooting ragheads is it



I'd still do a boycott though.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Being in a position for the last 10 years where I have been involved in IT recruitment... actual real world experience is paramount, not certificates.



No, I mean, I'd rather live with students and have no money than join the RAF. I've recruited myself y'know, I know how it works.


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## 8115 (Dec 16, 2009)

I marched against the Iraq war and would have marched against Afghanistan had I not been too busy with my degree, there's no way I'd be involved in it.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> You're not _actually_ thinking this though are you?



I am. I'm thinking if the teaching gig falls through I'll be stuck living in my mums house and nearly 30 years old. Drastic times, drastic measures


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## Stanley Edwards (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I am. I'm thinking if the teaching gig falls through I'll be stuck living in my mums house and nearly 30 years old. Drastic times, drastic measures



Get a paper round.


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## mozzy (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I am. I'm thinking if the teaching gig falls through I'll be stuck living in my mums house _and nearly 30 years old_. Drastic times, drastic measures



 You are still a young man!! <tut!>.


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## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I am. I'm thinking if the teaching gig falls through I'll be stuck living in my mums house and nearly 30 years old. Drastic times, drastic measures



bank job

at least you'll be the direct recipient of the proceeds then, rather than getting a tiny tiny share of the profits from armed robbery


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2009)

8115 said:


> I marched against the Iraq war and would have marched against Afghanistan had I not been too busy with my degree, there's no way I'd be involved in it.



So, you protest against the killing of innocent children.......when you're not too busy with other things?


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## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

I'll be a direct recipient of a ten stretch.

Imma make a play for the teaching gig but if it falls through I'm joining the machinery of death. May we not study the heretic to better know his ways?

Man I need to get better at lying to myself for that one to pass the conscience


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## Shevek (Dec 16, 2009)

Dont do it Dottie!

I am in my nearly thirties too. I know its a bit worrying to think you haven't got a career sorted out but the air force, ffs dottie what are you thinking of.

I always had you down as a radical, a free thinker, don't do it. 

Shevek


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'll be a direct recipient of a ten stretch.
> 
> Imma make a play for the teaching gig but if it falls through I'm joining the machinery of death. May we not study the heretic to better know his ways?
> 
> Man I need to get better at lying to myself for that one to pass the conscience



Have you passed the physical yet?


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## Shevek (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'll be a direct recipient of a ten stretch.
> 
> Imma make a play for the teaching gig but if it falls through I'm joining the machinery of death. May we not study the heretic to better know his ways?
> 
> Man I need to get better at lying to myself for that one to pass the conscience



Why are you even thinking about this? What do you really want to do? Are you into teaching big style?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2009)

A guy I knew went to uni and medical school on the army plan. After, he had to give them five years of his life.

That was a long time ago. Now, he's head of medicine at one of the largest hospitals in the province, and is richer than Croesus.


----------



## spring-peeper (Dec 16, 2009)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, I mean, I'd rather live with students and have no money than join the RAF. I've recruited myself y'know, I know how it works.



Same here, but I've never been recruited.

Living with students and having no money is wonderful!!!


----------



## Kanda (Dec 16, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> A guy I knew went to uni and medical school on the army plan. After, he had to give them five years of his life.
> 
> That was a long time ago. Now, he's head of medicine at one of the largest hospitals in the province, and is richer than Croesus.



Took me a fuckton of hassle and many years to sort my career out, 5 yrs is fuck all. Uni is 4 isn't it?

So if you don't get the chance to go to Uni, is this such a bad option?


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

Shevek said:


> Why are you even thinking about this? What do you really want to do? Are you into teaching big style?



I like helping people understand our language. That's all. And I am good at that.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 16, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Have you passed the physical yet?



PMSL no, JC, I have not. And I doubt if I can. I'm the kid who gets picked last when captains are choosing teams.


----------



## Shevek (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I like helping people understand our language. That's all. And I am good at that.



Oh sorry I didn't mean the teaching. That seems like quite a good idea (From my limited knowledge of you as a person). No, I mean't why are you even thinking about the airforce? Like I said I thought you were quite radical. I see you going off to Paris to be a writer or something.

I have decided to follow my dream of being an anthropologist by saving up for my research masters. I am into following your dreams/heart at the moment. I am quite romantic. 

Shevek


----------



## spring-peeper (Dec 16, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> A guy I knew went to uni and medical school on the army plan. After, he had to give them five years of his life.
> 
> That was a long time ago. Now, he's head of medicine at one of the largest hospitals in the province, and is richer than Croesus.



Awesome!!!

My eldest was seriously considering that option for to help her get her degree.  It was during the 9/11 crisis.  I pointed out that she may have to go to war - her response was "by then, I will be sufficiently brainwashed".  meh - smart girl.

The deciding factor was a boyfriend.  They didn't want to commit four years of their lives to something that was out of their control.

Really glad it worked out for your friend.  I'm sure that there are other good stories related to this.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 16, 2009)

spring-peeper said:


> Living with students and having no money is wonderful!!!



It's really not  but it's not the worst thing ever.

You would have to press-gang me to get me into the military though, I would rather go on the rob. It just isn't an option.


----------



## Shevek (Dec 16, 2009)

'puts on life-coach hat' 

What do you REALLY want to do Dottie? I mean really really want to do? Not whats available as an advert on the internet.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2009)

I was going to join the air force, go to officer training school and become a pilot, but you can't do that if you're nearsighted.


----------



## Shevek (Dec 16, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> I was going to join the air force, go to officer training school and become a pilot, but you can't do that if you're nearsighted.



To support imperialism?


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> PMSL no, JC, I have not. And I doubt if I can. I'm the kid who gets picked last when captains are choosing teams.



I think they're looking for people with that kind of suppressed rage.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 16, 2009)

Shevek said:


> To support imperialism?



No: to end up a commercial pilot.


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## Shevek (Dec 17, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No: to end up a commercial pilot.



So you think its acceptable to carpet bomb people in third world countries as a stepping stone to a career as a commercial pilot?


----------



## Kanda (Dec 17, 2009)

Shevek said:


> So you think its acceptable to carpet bomb people in third world countries as a stepping stone to a career as a commercial pilot?



Only if it's Manchester


----------



## Shevek (Dec 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Only if it's Manchester



ha ha ha. love you too kanda


----------



## spring-peeper (Dec 17, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> No: to end up a commercial pilot.



The majority of the pilots at Air Canada are from the military.  It's the only place that they can get enough airtime to qualify.


----------



## Shevek (Dec 17, 2009)

Damn the military. Damn imperialism!


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Dec 17, 2009)

spring-peeper said:


> The majority of the pilots at Air Canada are from the military.  It's the only place that they can get enough airtime to qualify.



The majority of pilots at any airline are ex military pilots, with a smattering of ex bush pilots, at some canadian airlines.


----------



## Kanda (Dec 17, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> The majority of pilots at any airline are ex military pilots, with a smattering of ex bush pilots, at some canadian airlines.



.. or rich cunts that can pay for the flight time to qualify. The theory isn't too bad, paying for your airtime is a bitch.


----------



## MikeMcc (Dec 17, 2009)

I have a feeling someone has lied to you DC.  Starting wages are typically 17 to 19K (higher end after doing trade training).  The RAF has some serious coffin dodgers in it and a career path to 55 year old which makes time in rank very long.  Even officer trades aren't paying out that much money till you get to Flt Lt rank.

The RAF are about the least military of all the services and their role is not just about going out and killing as many as possible.  They have major roles in providing relief supplies, peace keeping duties, air-sea rescue, etc.  They also have an honest habit (too young to have traditions) of sending their officers off to do the dirty stuff rather than the poor sod at the bottom.

They do provide very good very good training and self-improvent prospects.  the Army paid 80% of my OU fees to get my degree, my immediate boss had his MSc funded in the same way.

Unless there's something very unusual about the offer they are giving you (direct entry, or something like that) I'd say it was bullshit.


----------



## spring-peeper (Dec 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> .. or rich cunts that can pay for the flight time to qualify. The theory isn't too bad, paying for your airtime is a bitch.



I'd rather have someone trained by the military flying my plane than some yahoo doing it as a hobby one daddy's money.

My cousin lives in Kent.  She wanted to be a pilot and worked off her hours flying by teaching the lower levels.  She is now a jet pilot!!!!  By she realizes that flying/teaching/working full time to afford her hobby, isn't the way to go to get a job in the major commercial airline.  Pilots need to be younger that she is, and the only way to get the number of hours is to join the military.


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## drachir (Dec 17, 2009)

Why don't you just get one of those £35k jobs that companies line up outside universities to offer graduates?

/has spent the evening talking to students who actually believe this to be true


----------



## Rainingstairs (Dec 17, 2009)

I'd do it---if I were ok with being the military's bitch 






i'm not btw


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## derf (Dec 17, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> 34K would mean I was earning more than my mum and brother combined. But I'd be servicing the mechanisms of effete flyboy death dealers.
> 
> So tempting though. I could even justify it to m yself by saying to my conscience that the skills I'm learning are going to be vital CTR.



I see your communist ideas are intact.
Do what is best for the collective until someone offers you a fat pile of cash to sell out.


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## pboi (Dec 17, 2009)

drachir said:


> Why don't you just get one of those £35k jobs that companies line up outside universities to offer graduates?
> 
> /has spent the evening talking to students who actually believe this to be true



Accenture/Other Consulting/Law/Inv Banks/ Random other jobs.

Big 4 dont pay 35k tho


They do exist...they just massive minority!


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## Mr Moose (Dec 17, 2009)

It appears the Stereo MC's were right after all. They do want you in the military.


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## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

Have you ever thought of becoming an actuary?


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## newme (Dec 17, 2009)

kabbes said:


> Have you ever thought of becoming an actuary?



Me and a mate actually wanted to do this, not sure why we didnt exactly.
Tho I think the main attraction at the time was the quoted payrate and the fact we found maths easy which was the main skill listed rather than having any idea what the fuck you were supposed to do lol.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

newme said:


> Me and a mate actually wanted to do this, not sure why we didnt exactly.
> Tho I think the main attraction at the time was the quoted payrate and the fact we found maths easy which was the main skill listed rather than having any idea what the fuck you were supposed to do lol.


Yeah, that's worked for me.

I still don't have any idea what the fuck you are supposed to do.  But I seem to be in charge of telling other people what to do and they know just fine, so party time.


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## pboi (Dec 17, 2009)

actuary will make you kill yourself


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## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

Yes, I can do that just by pointing at you.  Beware my finger.


----------



## newme (Dec 17, 2009)

kabbes said:


> Yeah, that's worked for me.
> 
> I still don't have any idea what the fuck you are supposed to do.  But I seem to be in charge of telling other people what to do and they know just fine, so party time.



So like being a banker but with less abuse and more confusion about what the hell it is your doing. With even less interest in finding out.


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## ymu (Dec 17, 2009)

I think you'd be an ace teacher Dotty, so please do that. But we're all stuck with limited choices in life. Principles are good, and important, but don't let them stop you getting some decent training in the only way available to you if deep down you know it's the way into what you really want to do.

I do agree with fridge though. I can't see it. You should be a teacher.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

newme said:


> So like being a banker but with less abuse and more confusion about what the hell it is your doing. *With even less interest in finding out.*


I'm on here all day, aren't I?

Take That, The Man.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 17, 2009)

When I was a teen the automated careers advice printout used to spew out 'actuary' and librarian' regularly. What happened to the neat, details focussed, driven young man of that time?

Ah yeah, drugs and women.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

Mine told me that I should be on the stage.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 17, 2009)

Lordy, how wrong those things were.

Actually I did properly investigate acturial work when I was studying for my A-Levels, but there was too much esoteric math and stats work in it for my feeble right brain to cope with (or left, I can never remember which one is the math side), and my next choice of lawyer was drilled out of me by attending 4 'taster' lectures at Essex Uni and realising that it would be several years of learning by rote. TBH it's still an option on the list of possible careers if IT-related stuff doesn't work out long term.


----------



## newme (Dec 17, 2009)

kabbes said:


> I'm on here all day, aren't I?
> 
> Take That, The Man.



You do seem to have a rather high presence on the boards considering yes lol.
Spose its hard for anyone to complain about it when they arent sure what u should be doing instead


----------



## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

Certainly, I'm very good at telling people that tasks that take a few days will take a month.  It's called "good expectation management", so it's a positive thing.  Honest.

Anyway, kyser, I actually think they were probably right.


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 17, 2009)

Possibly, but I doubt the stage would be compatible with your long term life goal, being somewhat more capricious from a career succes/longevity perspective. In fact, you could probably make a graph up comparing the two combining financial reward, longevity and career success.


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## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

I think it's fair to assume that had I gone onto the stage, I would have ended up as successful as other great British stage actors, like Blessed, Hopkins or McKellen.  I would then have been able to live wherever I wanted, had the money to do as I wished and be beloved of the people.  

Why do you want to deny me this, kyser?  Why?


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## kyser_soze (Dec 17, 2009)

Kabbes, the actor.


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## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—and yet,
to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me—
nor woman neither.

No, nor woman neither.

*Bows*


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 17, 2009)

*sobs*


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## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

drachir said:


> Why don't you just get one of those £35k jobs that companies line up outside universities to offer graduates?
> 
> /has spent the evening talking to students who actually believe this to be true



Well, it is true.  If you go to a decent uni, and start working in one of the banks.  They try to make it seem all jet-set and shit.  It isn't.


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

pboi said:


> Accenture/Other Consulting/Law/Inv Banks/ Random other jobs.
> 
> Big 4 dont pay 35k tho
> 
> ...



Accenture pay fuck all for low level consultants (which you would start on after uni)

If you're academically smart as well as good at it, IT pays a decent wage in this country.  Should be able to start on £35k out of uni, moving up to £50k by the time you're 25.  Might have to work long hours though.


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

kyser_soze said:


> When I was a teen the automated careers advice printout used to spew out 'actuary' and librarian' regularly. What happened to the neat, details focussed, driven young man of that time?
> 
> Ah yeah, drugs and women.



At various times I used it:

Accountant
Pilot
IT Consultant


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## pboi (Dec 17, 2009)

28k at least plus 10k golden hello.

i started in It as a grsad, and its FUCKING SHIT. pay isnt that good either

consultant grad meat get paid more than IT grad meat


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

Ah, didn't include the golden hello.  The guy I know started on 24k.

I started in IT as a grad.  Started on £32k a year at 21, just moved onto around £50k at 26.  Benefits of getting a top-notch degree from a redbrick, and chasing the money in IT.


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## pboi (Dec 17, 2009)

IT wasnt for me man, much prefer finance consultancy. shame as I have a Comp Sci degree


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## fractionMan (Dec 17, 2009)

hob_nobbler said:


> Accenture pay fuck all for low level consultants (which you would start on after uni)
> 
> If you're academically smart as well as good at it, IT pays a decent wage in this country.  Should be able to start on £35k out of uni, moving up to £50k by the time you're 25.  Might have to work long hours though.



where the fuck do you live?


----------



## Kanda (Dec 17, 2009)

fractionMan said:


> where the fuck do you live?



Probably London. What sector though? finance? 

I work in IT for a Hedgy.


----------



## chainsaw cat (Dec 17, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> To join the RAF as an ICT bod.
> 
> Pros: loadsa money and first class training
> 
> ...



The raf is not military unless you join the Apes or aircrew. Civil servants in pale blue shirts.

ICT bod - the nearest you would come to shooting is when you play pool. Seriously.


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## mattie (Dec 17, 2009)

(ignore)


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## pboi (Dec 17, 2009)

FTR I dont know of any proper IT gra jobs that pay 35k.

he might mean contracting somewhere? bank backoffice?


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## madzone (Dec 17, 2009)

hob_nobbler said:


> Ah, didn't include the golden hello. The guy I know started on 24k.
> 
> I started in IT as a grad. Started on £32k a year at 21, just moved onto around £50k at 26. Benefits of getting a top-notch degree from a redbrick, and chasing the money in IT.


 Are you fit?


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## Kanda (Dec 17, 2009)

pboi said:


> FTR I dont know of any proper IT gra jobs that pay 35k.
> 
> he might mean contracting somewhere? bank backoffice?



50k isn't unreasonable for finance industry. I know IT people in the industry that earn double that... not contracting, perm. Most without degrees too.. you don't need 'a top notch red brick degree' lol


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## fractionMan (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't know a single IT graduate who walked into a 35k job.


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## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

Looking at the starting salary is incredibly short-sighted in any case.  Wages are not about what you earn in year 1.  They're about what you earn over your working lifetime.  Something that starts on £20k and rapidly rises to £50k is worth a lot more in the long run that something that starts on £25k and gradually increases to £30k.


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## stupid dogbot (Dec 17, 2009)

fractionMan said:


> I don't know a single IT graduate who walked into a 35k job.



Nope, me neither.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 17, 2009)

kabbes said:


> Looking at the starting salary is incredibly short-sighted in any case.  Wages are not about what you earn in year 1.  They're about what you earn over your working lifetime.  Something that starts on £20k and rapidly rises to £50k is worth a lot more in the long run that something that starts on £25k and gradually increases to £30k.



I'm not interested in being mad rich, just comfortable. What would I do with 50k? develop a coke habit probably.


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## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm not interested in being mad rich, just comfortable. What would I do with 50k? develop a coke habit probably.


All the talk was about starting salaries though.  I thought I'd even it up a bit.

As for you -- I'm pleased to see you finally beginning to tread the True Path of the Liberal.  Once you are a proper salaryman, you will inevitably start the slide towards Seeing Both Sides of the Argument.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2009)

Johnny Canuck2 said:


> Have you passed the physical yet?



It's not as hard as it used to be. Nowadays, if you're not quite up to snuff, they can send you on a preparatory course to get your fitness up to scratch before you do basic.
feather-bedded, they are!


----------



## Rod Sleeves (Dec 17, 2009)

A mate of mine had to do remedial PE when he joined the RN. My brother spent six months doing a tailored fitness course before he went for the Marines, he got in, just.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2009)

Shevek said:


> So you think its acceptable to carpet bomb people in third world countries as a stepping stone to a career as a commercial pilot?



Canada's Air Force have historically done very little carpet-bombing of third world countries.
I wouldn't mind seeing them do a re-run of Admiral Cockburn's attack on Washington and the burning of the White House, though.


----------



## theCIA (Dec 17, 2009)

fractionMan said:


> I don't know a single IT graduate who walked into a 35k job.



i actually walked out of one, does that count?


----------



## Numbers (Dec 17, 2009)

Kanda said:


> 50k isn't unreasonable for finance industry. I know IT people in the industry that earn double that... not contracting, perm. Most without degrees too.. you don't need 'a top notch red brick degree' lol


^^ this.  I'm the least _qualified_ in my place, I just have the most common sense and good negotiation skills.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 17, 2009)

Deffo not joining. Been looking at photos of aftermaths of ariel bombardments. I'm not even polishing the left screw head of something that gets used thusly. I'm not fixing the e-mail issues of the grunt who polishes that screw head.

Fuck that. Bastards know how to advertise though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 17, 2009)

Rod Sleeves said:


> A mate of mine had to do remedial PE when he joined the RN. My brother spent six months doing a tailored fitness course before he went for the Marines, he got in, just.



Royal Marines are ultra-fit. They make Paras look like pie-eaters.


----------



## drachir (Dec 17, 2009)

pboi said:


> Accenture/Other Consulting/Law/Inv Banks/ Random other jobs.
> 
> Big 4 dont pay 35k tho
> 
> ...



There's one for all of them, honest, even the ones doing Multimedia File Management at Brecon University College.


----------



## pboi (Dec 17, 2009)

*massive minority*


----------



## drachir (Dec 17, 2009)

pboi said:


> *massive minority*



I know, I was just commenting on the belief that many students seem to have. Was talking with a group of students from one of the lowest ranked unis last night, all of whom had been told, and believed that this was the kind of job they were certain to get straight after uni.

My ex, who was doing pharmacy at a red brick, and thus more likely to earn £35k was convinced that after a few years she could earn £170k.

It's as if they don't realise how much most people earn and think it's standard.

Edit: If I say any different it's because I'm bitter that I didn't go to uni and I'm _only_ on 24.


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

fractionMan said:


> where the fuck do you live?



London



Kanda said:


> Probably London. What sector though? finance?
> 
> I work in IT for a Hedgy.



Finance software (for a software house)



fractionMan said:


> I don't know a single IT graduate who walked into a 35k job.



I know a couple of dozen grads (not necessarily CompSci/IT grads) who walked into 35k IT jobs.




Kanda said:


> 50k isn't unreasonable for finance industry. I know IT people in the industry that earn double that... not contracting, perm. Most without degrees too.. you don't need 'a top notch red brick degree' lol



I know you don't need one, but my personal experience has been of people with decent degrees who went to work for the banks.  Some have to work long hours and weekends, others just work normal office hours with the occasional go-live weekend work.


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

drachir said:


> I know, I was just commenting on the belief that many students seem to have. Was talking with a group of students from one of the lowest ranked unis last night, all of whom had been told, and believed that this was the kind of job they were certain to get straight after uni.
> 
> My ex, who was doing pharmacy at a red brick, and thus more likely to earn £35k was convinced that after a few years she could earn £170k.
> 
> ...



IIRC, Deloitte told the grads at my uni that if they managed to stay at the company for a couple of years, they'd be on £45k.  I haven't really kept in touch with the couple of people I know that went to work there.


----------



## drachir (Dec 17, 2009)

Doesn't there becomes a point where money just isn't motivating any more? I'm not really bothered about salary, as long as my job's not too much hassle and I can afford to do what I want (within reason).


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

drachir said:


> Doesn't there becomes a point where money just isn't motivating any more? I'm not really bothered about salary, as long as my job's not too much hassle and I can afford to do what I want (within reason).



No, it's never enough.  

You just start spending more money on crap you don't need.  Like, instead of buying the £100 hi-fi that would suit your needs perfectly, you start thinking that you might as well spend £1k on it instead - you deserve it for working "so hard".  Or instead of buying a perfectly wearable M&S suit, you think that you need to look the part, so should probably buy a decent label.


----------



## mrs quoad (Dec 17, 2009)

I've met quite a few scrotes who were sorted out by a stint in the military. 

Mostly 10-20 years ago, mind. 

And these days, they're mostly reasonably senior coppers.

I can see you as a senior copper one day, Dotty.

'Rozzcommunist.' 

Or 

'Dotcopunist.'

Oh yes.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 17, 2009)

Do not mock me rowboy


----------



## drachir (Dec 17, 2009)

hob_nobbler said:


> No, it's never enough.
> 
> You just start spending more money on crap you don't need.  Like, instead of buying the £100 hi-fi that would suit your needs perfectly, you start thinking that you might as well spend £1k on it instead - you deserve it for working "so hard".  Or instead of buying a perfectly wearable M&S suit, you think that you need to look the part, so should probably buy a decent label.



Don't underestimate the joy of a good Hi-Fi...


----------



## drachir (Dec 17, 2009)

mrs quoad said:


> I've met quite a few scrotes who were sorted out by a stint in the military.
> 
> Mostly 10-20 years ago, mind.
> 
> ...



That's a lot of effort, DotCommunitySupportOfficerist might be easier.


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

drachir said:


> Don't underestimate the joy of a good Hi-Fi...



I ended up spending £800.  It does much lush sounds.


----------



## pboi (Dec 17, 2009)

hob_nobbler said:


> IIRC, Deloitte told the grads at my uni that if they managed to stay at the company for a couple of years, they'd be on £45k.  I haven't really kept in touch with the couple of people I know that went to work there.



Deloitte is 27k, 31k, 32k, 44k, 50k

each year, assuming all exams passed


----------



## kyser_soze (Dec 17, 2009)

> Like, instead of buying the £100 hi-fi that would suit your needs perfectly



This hifi doesn't exist.


----------



## newme (Dec 17, 2009)

kyser_soze said:


> This hifi doesn't exist.



They probably do, but you need to know exactly where they fall off the lorry so you can catch it.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 17, 2009)

Maslow's hierarchy of needs, people.  Money is a relatively low-order need, supplanted at the higher levels by things like self-actualisation.


----------



## hob_nobbler (Dec 17, 2009)

madzone said:


> Are you fit?



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  In other words, no.


----------



## madzone (Dec 17, 2009)

hob_nobbler said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In other words, no.


 Me neither. I'm skint as well


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 17, 2009)

You'd bone him for toffee and you know it


----------



## madzone (Dec 17, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> You'd bone him for toffee and you know it


 How dare you. I don't do Urbs


----------

