# How many pages should a CV have?



## unrepentant85 (Nov 6, 2013)

I have just had a free professional CV review and was told I need to expand things in it. To do this it would need to be 3 pages. Is 3 pages too much?  What is the maximum?

I only ask as I previously got told by an agency that my CV was too long and should be trimmed down to a maximum of 2 pages.


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## Greebo (Nov 6, 2013)

Two is the norm.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 6, 2013)

One shows that you know what's important and what isn't.

Also, a "free professional CV review" sounds like a contradiction in terms.


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## trashpony (Nov 6, 2013)

2 pages max. A lot of 'professional' CV agencies are absolutely rubbish incidentally


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

Never more than two, unless you're involved in some sort of specialist industry where long CVs are the norm, and if you were, you'd know that.

You can expand bits in a CV by contracting other bits though


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

two. Second page is for the school record nobody gives a shit about (upgrade your results by one place anyway, no one ever checks). A canadian fella I know took his english CV to home when he repatriated and the recruitment people told him it was too modest. Because it just stated what he did, when he did it and how.

Apparently in the land of the free and its cousin you have to basically portray yourself as some titan of business and solver of all ills before you get even a sniff of interest.


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## Mapped (Nov 6, 2013)

I've been working on mine recently, what are people's thoughts on hyperlinks in a CV for work that appears online? Not too many, just for key and relevant pieces of work.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

Two. And keep it factual. Those self descriptor opening paragraphs make HR cringe - put the selling yourself stuff in the covering letter/email.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I've been working on mine recently, what are people's thoughts on hyperlinks in a CV for work that appears online? Not too many, just for key and relevant pieces of work.


Sure. I would have it with the actual URLs which were then clickable, rather than linking text, so that it could be printed out or dumped easily to PDF. Never overestimate the sensibleness of what people in HR will do.


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I've been working on mine recently, what are people's thoughts on hyperlinks in a CV for work that appears online? Not too many, just for key and relevant pieces of work.


That seems like a good idea imo.

To OP - two.


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## unrepentant85 (Nov 6, 2013)

This was a freebie from an oil and gas recruitement agency, which was advertised on facebook, so I didnt have high hopes for the feedback tbh. No two agencies seem to sing from the same hymn sheet on any advice.

Right, two pages it is then! Next question, how small a font is acceptable?


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sure. I would have it with the actual URLs which were then clickable, rather than linking text, so that it could be printed out or dumped easily to PDF. Never overestimate the sensibleness of what people in HR will do.


Yep. You have to assume that they'll print it off and work from the hard copy.

Edit: and only printing the cv and covering whatever


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> This was a freebie from an oil and gas recruitement agency, which was advertised on facebook, so I didnt have high hopes for the feedback tbh. No two agencies seem to sing from the same hymn sheet on any advice.
> 
> Right, two pages it is then! Next question, how small a font is acceptable?


11. Depends on the font type tho. I'm partial to Calibri these days.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Two. And keep it factual. Those self descriptor opening paragraphs make HR cringe - put the selling yourself stuff in the covering letter/email.




The amount of shitty A4E CV writing courses I've been on that state you must have a personal statement...

If I was honest it would be 'Well I need some P's cos the dole is shit and you look like the sort of people I can comfortably earn from while not expending to many brain cells' etc


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 6, 2013)

Also, if agencies are involved anywhere, only ever provide PDFs. Retcons are target driven, mendacious illiterates and will amend Word-based CVs as the mood takes them.


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## bi0boy (Nov 6, 2013)

Before reducing the font size make sure you've deleted the bits about playing the recorder at school and being able to use personal computers running Microsoft Windows.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> This was a freebie from an oil and gas recruitement agency, which was advertised on facebook, so I didnt have high hopes for the feedback tbh. No two agencies seem to sing from the same hymn sheet on any advice.
> 
> Right, two pages it is then! Next question, how small a font is acceptable?




12 point, no less.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> The amount of shitty A4E CV writing courses I've been on that state you must have a personal statement...
> 
> If I was honest it would be 'Well I need some P's cos the dole is shit and you look like the sort of people I can comfortably earn from while not expending to many brain cells' etc


A4E nuff said


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

Yeah, personal statements are wank.

I put a "skills summary" paragraph at the top of mine, which is both an abstract of the experience and also indicates what I think my best skills are and what I'm most interested in, which isn't always obvious from experience. But that's as far as I go and it's very short.

eta: and it also changes depending on the job - if I'm going for a necromancer position I'm not going to say that actually I'm far more interested in conjuring.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

I just got a new job -- the only one I applied for.  My CV was two pages plus a two-page appendix.  It was structured like this:

*Main two pages:*

*Name and Address
Professional Profile*
Six bullet points highlighting my key attributes​*Professional Experience*.  From present day backwards, this included for each job:
Company
Nature of Employment
High level overview of what the company did and what my role was within it​Highlights of Responsibilities and Achievements
Key bullet points of most significant elements​I then noted that a fuller description of the most recent role (6.5 years) could be found in an appendix at the back.​*Education*, from present day backwards

*Appendix (two pages)*:
An in-depth boast of all the things I have have been responsible for and achieved in my current job.  Structured as:

*Responsibilities*
Since joining X in 2007, kabbes has had responsibility for:
·  *Responsibility A*
o  kabbes did this thing that was needed for that reason and had the other benefits.
o  kabbes also did this part of the other thing.
o  etc.​
·  *Responsibility B*
o  more stuff about what kabbes did and why and how it benefited the company​
*Expertise*
Doing all these things has given kabbes expertise in the following areas:
*Expertise A* with explanation
etc


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Two. And keep it factual. Those self descriptor opening paragraphs make HR cringe - put the selling yourself stuff in the covering letter/email.


Horses for courses, though.  My job applications are always through recruitment agents.  They will be passing on a CV only, not a covering letter.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

I think my fave lie CV was when I went for a PR position with a company that represented paper and paper related interests

I was marketing director for Q Cleaning

I was creative designer for PK Transport

I had photoshop qualifications that I don't have

The thanks but no thanks response was so poorly written it looked like google translated it into my native tongue.

wankers.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> Also, if agencies are involved anywhere, only ever provide PDFs. Retcons are target driven, mendacious illiterates and will amend Word-based CVs as the mood takes them.


I tried that once.  They copied out the CV from the PDF and fucked it up royally in the process.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Horses for courses, though.  My job applications are always through recruitment agents.  They will be passing on a CV only, not a covering letter.


Aye, it's a waste of time writing a cover letter to a recruitment agent.


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## Sirena (Nov 6, 2013)

I think two pages too.  And don't use expressions like 'committed', 'focussed' and '110%'.


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## Ted Striker (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes  - what/where's your new role?


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

I always send out PDFs but some people will literally only accept Word docs. It's usually a sign that they are idiots, of course. (Sometimes they might be fine personally but having to use a horrible CRM/whatever system which was designed by idiots.)

I've been tempted to replace the file icon with a Word one, actually, because all they want to see is an icon that they can double-click and it opens, but you never know which version of Word they might be using.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> This was a freebie from an oil and gas recruitement agency, which was advertised on facebook, so I didnt have high hopes for the feedback tbh. No two agencies seem to sing from the same hymn sheet on any advice.
> 
> Right, two pages it is then! Next question, how small a font is acceptable?


You won't fool anybody with small font.  Nobody wants a wall of text.  Saying that, I used calibri 10.  I had 3 point gaps between paragraphs.  But sections had significant lined-off gaps between them, and subsections had decent paragraph gaps too.


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## Manter (Nov 6, 2013)

bi0boy said:


> Before reducing the font size make sure you've deleted the bits about playing the recorder at school and being able to use personal computers running Microsoft Windows.


Yes! I received a cv once for a senior management position that stated the person involved had been head girl. I felt quite sad for her actually- 40-something and that was still a high point of her life...


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I always send out PDFs but some people will literally only accept Word docs. It's usually a sign that they are idiots, of course.
> 
> I've been tempted to replace the file icon with a Word one, actually, because all they want to see is an icon that they can double-click and it opens, but* you never know which version of Word they might be using.*




.docx


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

Ted Striker said:


> kabbes  - what/where's your new role?


Head of Capital for the European group of a reinsurer.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Aye, it's a waste of time writing a cover letter to a thief



you know i am right


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> .docx


The file icon is different for different versions of Word - it's just the icon that matters.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Head of Capital for the European group of a reinsurer.




fucking hell, can I lend you some carbolic soap to scrub yourself clean?


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Head of Capital for the European group of a reinsurer.



ALL RISE ALL RISE


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> fucking hell, can I lend you some carbolic soap to scrub yourself clean?


The irony is not lost on me.


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## fishfinger (Nov 6, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The file icon is different for different versions of Word - it's just the icon that matters.


That's only going to (possibly) fool a mac user, as windows doesn't use separate icon files - It gets the icon from the associated executable file, or one of its .dll files.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Head of Capital for the European group of a reinsurer.


 

What does that even mean?


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

fishfinger said:


> That's only going to (possibly) fool a mac user, as windows doesn't use separate icon files - It gets the icon from the associated executable file, or one of its .dll files.


Well that's that cunning plan ruined  Thankfully I actually have a job now.


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## fishfinger (Nov 6, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Thankfully I actually have a job now.



Well, that's the important part


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What does that even mean?


Arch-capitalist, complete with moustache twirling and cackle.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Arch-capitalist, complete with moustache twirling and cackle.




stove pipe hat, monocle etc


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Arch-capitalist, complete with moustache twirling and cackle.


 
I'm finding more and more I have no idea what people do, even when they tell me what they do.

I've never written a CV, probably for the best.


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I'm finding more and more I have no idea what people do, even when they tell me what they do.
> 
> I've never written a CV, probably for the best.


Probably because more and more people don't themselves know what they do.


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## EastEnder (Nov 6, 2013)

My CV is just one page, very concise, hand written, in blood, usually something like: "You will find I am the prefect candidate for this role, or your other dog is next".


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Arch-capitalist, complete with moustache twirling and cackle.


Turning a large pile of money into an even larger pile of money while not looking too closely for the actual source of that extra wealth?


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

EastEnder said:


> My CV is just one page, very concise, hand written, in blood, usually something like: "You will find I am the *prefect* candidate for this role, or your other dog is next".


Bet you were Head Boy.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What does that even mean?


I suspect it's a senior, heavily analytical and commercially-minded actuarial role, working with the board to lead capital projects whilst providing some oversight for Reinsurance optimisation and investment.


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## xenon (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Two. And keep it factual. Those self descriptor opening paragraphs make HR cringe - put the selling yourself stuff in the covering letter/email.



Really? I hate writing them. But AN X HR bod... Think she was HR, brought into advise peple being made redundant last year. Told me to have a Profile bit at the top...


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> I suspect it's a senior, heavily analytical and commercially-minded actuarial role, working with the board to lead capital projects whilst providing some oversight for Reinsurance optimisation and investment.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 6, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What does that even mean?



How is it complicated? Reinsurance is straightforward. European, and group, are easy concepts. The treasury function makes sense, and clearly in a reinsurer the question of how much is on the balance sheet is determined by individual elements of risk. Hence Kabbes and his slide rule.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

interviews do my head in as well

'describe where there was a workplace issue and your part in resolving it'

'Wankers couldn't tell one end of a philips from the other so I stepped in'

is supposed to be translated into wankspeak of 'I recognised that my colleagues were unable to adress the matter with the tools on hand, but having previous experience with a screwdriver I was able to rectify etc etc'


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

"Where do you see yourself in five years?"


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 6, 2013)

Silas Loom said:


> How is it complicated? Reinsurance is straightforward. European, and group, are easy concepts. The treasury function makes sense, and clearly in a reinsurer the question of how much is on the balance sheet is determined by individual elements of risk. Hence Kabbes and his slide rule.


 
Stop. What is reinsurance?


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Stop. What is reinsurance?


They insure the insurance companies.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

So who insures the reinsurers? 

Is it turtles all the way down?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> 'describe where there was a workplace issue and your part in resolving it'


 
A load of money went missing from the tills. I altered the sales ledger to make it look like the money was never there in the first place. Then spent 3 weeks in Barbados.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So who insures the reinsurers?
> 
> Is it turtles all the way down?




the worm ourobus


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Turning a large pile of money into an even larger pile of money while not looking too closely for the actual source of that extra wealth?


Depends on your point of view.  Insurance is certainly crucial for the smooth operation of a society.  It doesn't have to make a profit, though.  But given that the government has zero interest in operating a nationalised insurance sector, I'm certainly happy that I will be working for a company that provides more social good than most.  

And what are policyholders interested in, first and foremost?  They want the insurance company to not go bust before they have to make a claim.  So working to make sure that the company is on a sound footing also has a social good element.

Beyond that, it gets more shaky of course.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 6, 2013)

TruXta said:


> They insure the insurance companies.


 
Why? As LBJ says, who insures the reinsurers. And who insures them?


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So who insures the reinsurers?
> 
> Is it turtles all the way down?


They do it amongst themselves. So Swiss Re will buy insurance from Munich Re etc.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

So kabbes is a bookie laying off bets. Only a bit better paid.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So who insures the reinsurers?
> 
> Is it turtles all the way down?


Retrocessionnaires.  Read the bit about the LMX Spiral though, which is a cautionary tale that reinsurers tell their kids about at Halloween.


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

Kabbes would have to answer the question of what happens if all the reinsurers went bust. Though I suspect it would ultimately come back to governments and taxpayers.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

Would you like a separate thread?  I feel that we are stealing away from important advice about CVs.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

TruXta said:


> Kabbes would have to answer the question of what happens if all the reinsurers went bust. Though I suspect it would ultimately come back to governments and taxpayers.


It always does.


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Would you like a separate thread?  I feel that we are stealing away from important advice about CVs.


True. I'll stop. Although I think the first page of this thread pretty much nails the CV question.


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## fuck seals (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Two. And keep it factual. Those self descriptor opening paragraphs make HR cringe - put the selling yourself stuff in the covering letter/email.



i'm not sure about this as a hard & fast rule cesare.  i could be wrong tho'.

i haven't provided a covering letter/ email for about a decade, my cv is seven pages in length, and has a nice bold statement front & centre.  with that i've always got to the final 2-3 candidates, if not not actually the role.

having said that, i've always used recruitment consultants to do the heavy lifting, and i expect them to (e.g.) edit the cv to their clients' needs.


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So kabbes is a bookie laying off bets. Only a bit better paid.


That's the nature of insurance in some respects yes.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 6, 2013)

TruXta said:


> That's the nature of insurance in some respects yes.


 
And extended warranties from Currys etc. are betting against a crocked house.


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## unrepentant85 (Nov 6, 2013)

Another question for ye fine folks, I left school at 16 after my Junior Cert (thats the Irish equivalent of GCSE) to work so should I bother including an education section?
All my work related education is listed of course but I dont think anybody will care that I got a B in CSPE in my school days.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

fuck seals said:


> i'm not sure about this as a hard & fast rule cesare.  i could be wrong tho'.
> 
> i haven't provided a covering letter/ email for about a decade, my cv is seven pages in length, and has a nice bold statement front & centre.  with that i've always got to the final 2-3 candidates, if not not actually the role.
> 
> having said that, i've always used recruitment consultants to do the heavy lifting, and i expect them to (e.g.) edit the cv to their clients' needs.


Have your recruitment agents always shown you the final product that they send to the end client?


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

New thread here:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/reinsurance.316900/


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## xenon (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Horses for courses, though.  My job applications are always through recruitment agents.  They will be passing on a CV only, not a covering letter.



This too. Cover letters, I have a couple but I'm pretty sure they never get beyond the agent and even then probably not read by them.in


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> Another question for ye fine folks, I left school at 16 after my Junior Cert (thats the Irish equivalent of GCSE) to work so should I bother including an education section?
> All my work related education is listed of course but I dont think anybody will care that I got a B in CSPE in my school days.


I wouldn't.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

fuck seals said:


> i've always used recruitment consultants to do the heavy lifting, and i expect them to (e.g.) *edit the cv* to their clients' needs.


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## xenon (Nov 6, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I think two pages too.  And don't use expressions like 'committed', 'focussed' and '110%'.



Unless you're doing a press conference as the new manager of Plymouth Argyle.


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## fuck seals (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Have your recruitment agents always shown you the final product that they send to the end client?


 

generally, yes.  funnily enough i can see the one for my current role in my inbox.

all 7 pages of it.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

fuck seals said:


> generally, yes.  funnily enough i can see the one for my current role in my inbox.
> 
> all 7 pages of it.


Do you work in IT by any chance?


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## unrepentant85 (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Have your recruitment agents always shown you the final product that they send to the end client?


My 2nd last interview involved me being sat in a room with 3 managers who each had a copy of my CV that had been sent in by the recruitement agency. After about 10 minutes of me being very confused with the questions I was being asked I had a look at the CV they had. It had my name on the top but the agency had copied and pasted someone elses job history into it. The mood was killed after that.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> My 2nd last interview involved me being sat in a room with 3 managers who each had a copy of my CV that had been sent in by the recruitement agency. After about 10 minutes of me being very confused with the questions I was being asked I had a look at the CV they had. It had my name on the top but the agency had copied and pasted someone elses job history into it. The mood was killed after that.


Yep, sometimes it's as bad as that but there are varying degrees of butchery that an agent can carry out on your cv.


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## Hellsbells (Nov 6, 2013)

I haven't been asked for a CV when applying for a job in years. It's always massive, endless application forms and personal statements. A CV would be much easier!


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## fuck seals (Nov 6, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


>



why the suprise?

the recruit consultant has a vested interest in getting a candidate into the role.  for my last role is was - i am told - 7.5k +20% of base salary.  

they can & do edit the cvs regardless.


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## fuck seals (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Do you work in IT by any chance?




interesting response 

i used to, many years ago.  these days, sales director is the title i have, for my sins.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

I had a recruitment agent add experience of a particular thing to my CV once.  I was then asked a question about it in my interview, which was very embarrassing.  When I got home, I compared CVs and sure enough, there was no mention of that experience in my original that I had sent to them.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

I wouldn't let a recruitment agent anywhere near my cv because, being generous here, 90% of the time they are illiterate lying shitehawks who have no idea about the skills involved in the job or what skills I have anyway. If I found one had been editing my CV I would sack them.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I wouldn't let a recruitment agent anywhere near my cv because, being generous here, 90% of the time they are illiterate lying shitehawks who have no idea about the skills involved in the job or what skills I have anyway. If I found one had been editing my CV I would sack them.


Sacking them is a bit late once you have already failed the interview as a result of the CV having been doctored, mind.

Sadly, you can't actually keep them away from your CV.  God knows I tried.  I made a non-copyable pdf, and they just retyped it out by hand.


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## xenon (Nov 6, 2013)

Apologies for hijack but since we're here... Where would you put relevant voluntary experience on a CV? Is it OK to stick it under Career history, obviously mentioning it's voluntary?


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

xenon said:


> Apologies for hijack but since we're here... Where would you put relevant voluntary experience on a CV? Is it OK to stick it under Career history, obviously mentioning it's voluntary?


If it's relevant, I would definitely put it under career history.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

fuck seals said:


> interesting response
> 
> i used to, many years ago.  these days, sales director is the title i have, for my sins.


The reason I ask, is because some of the lengthiest CVs I have seen have been those of IT people (particularly developers).


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## TruXta (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> The reason I ask, is because some of the lengthiest CVs I have seen have been those of IT people (particularly developers).


TBF in dev work the nature of your roles, tasks and required knowledge can change really quickly.


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## fuck seals (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> The reason I ask, is because some of the lengthiest CVs I have seen have been those of IT people (particularly developers).



 makes sense.  there's often a lot of technologies to list, specifics of projects to detail etc.  i suspect - you'd know better - that where rare & niche skills are linked to increased value, cvs tend to be longer as those details are brought out.


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## unrepentant85 (Nov 6, 2013)

There is just far too many agencies these days. In my area at the moment there is about 3 jobs im experienced for, but there must be about 15+ agencies all selling the same job. None of whom have any technical knowledge either, even conversant, for the roles they are recruiting for even though they claim to be head recruiter for engireering or HSEQ etc.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 6, 2013)

Low barriers to entry have been lowered further by commercial commoditisation of CV databases. That's why.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

fuck seals said:


> makes sense.  there's often a lot of technologies to list, specifics of projects to detail etc.  i suspect - you'd know better - that where rare & niche skills are linked to increased value, cvs tend to be longer as those details are brought out.


Even at entry level I've found that developers are keen to list each skill separately, and some of the less savvy recruitment agents just forward them on. It gets to the point where you have to be quite strict with agents eg "only send CVs of 2 pages with max 2 page appendix of specific, relevant skills"


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## sim667 (Nov 6, 2013)

1 to 2 sides is what we recommend to students.

Name and address.

Small personal Profile - 4-5 lines.

Employment History

Educational History

Any non-ceritificated courses.



Job done.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Even at entry level I've found that developers are keen to list each skill separately, and some of the less savvy recruitment agents just forward them on. It gets to the point where you have to be quite strict with agents eg "only send CVs of 2 pages with max 2 page appendix of specific, relevant skills"


I think some developers see a CV as a database dump, rather than a document which is meant to be read by humans for a specific purpose.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think some developers see a CV as a database dump, rather than a document which is meant to be read by humans for a specific purpose.


Yes! That's exactly it


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## Garek (Nov 6, 2013)

Hmmm mine is 3 pages. References only on the last page.


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

Redo the CV for different roles too.  The summary at the top, for example.  The order of the experiences.


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## Badgers (Nov 6, 2013)

Two pages
Third (optional) page with three work and three personal references


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## fuck seals (Nov 6, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Redo the CV for different roles too.  The summary at the top, for example.  The order of the experiences.



aye, completely.  if they want violins, give them violins.

but also bear in mind that the purpose of the cv is to start the conversation and set the agenda for it, nothing more.  you're not - imo - hired on the basis of the cv.  

my experience has been that if the hirer believes

.  you're affordable
.  you can do the job
.  they like you/ can work with you

they'll make you an offer


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## unrepentant85 (Nov 6, 2013)

Fuck it, im just going to copy this guys CV.

http://www.rleonardi.com/interactiv...buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer#!


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## kabbes (Nov 6, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> Fuck it, im just going to copy this guys CV.
> 
> http://www.rleonardi.com/interactiv...buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer#!


Amazing!


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## toph (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> Aye, it's a waste of time writing a cover letter to a recruitment agent.



i'm sure a covering letter could be helpful in some situations e.g if you we,re applying for a role as a personal assistant a covering letter may be a chance to show of you,re lexicon and grammatical skills.


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## cesare (Nov 6, 2013)

toph said:


> i'm sure a covering letter could be helpful in some situations e.g if you we,re applying for a role as a personal assistant a covering letter may be a chance to show of you,re lexicon and grammatical skills.


To the agent?


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## toph (Nov 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> To the agent?



Probably not. My blatant grammatical errors we're an attempt at a humorous first post.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 6, 2013)

Personally  i  just  have one page.

mind you  as it's mainly been teaching   all i really need to say is name of qualification and the examining body.


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## Sapphireblue (Nov 7, 2013)

1-2 pages is best. recently i've been going with a layout of having a skills/experience section first which is sort of a 'best bits' of my cv, similar to what i would put in a covering letter. then more detailed work experience / jobs afterwards, trying not to overlap too much with the first bit. finally education which has reduced and merged with work qualifications as i've got more actual experience.

i've stopped caring so much about cover letters once i realised that agencies rarely pass them on. i make sure it matches the cv though.

the important thing is that your cv doesn't need to include everything you've ever done. i think mine has improved noticeably since i basically cropped out earlier irrelevant jobs and expanded the skills / experience bit that is actually tailored to the job being applied for instead. thereby including more good stuff without lengthening the cv. in the event anyone actually cares what i did before it can be provided on request.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 7, 2013)

toph said:


> Probably not. My blatant grammatical errors we're an attempt at a humorous first post.


and what are they now you've found out it isn't funny?


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## unrepentant85 (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Thats the rewrite done and dusted. Two pages, Calibri 11 and fairly BS free.


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## toph (Nov 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and what are they now you've found out it isn't funny?



Two pages is the general consensus I believe.


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## weltweit (Nov 7, 2013)

I have always stuck to two pages.

The aim of the CV is to get you the interview, not tell your life story.

One recruitment consultant said last year that he just placed two people who both had three page CVs, but that is the only time anyone has said more than two pages.

Recruiters have to read a lot of CVs, if you can't distil down your career essence into two pages you will be asking them to read more than most other people.

You can elaborate if you wish in the covering letter.

My vote goes to two pages only.


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## StoneRoad (Nov 7, 2013)

Two pages with a third for references seems the usual limit now, but as Weltweit says, the aim of the CV is to get you to the interview.

What I find annoying is when the agency sends in your CV, and the people with the job then expect you to fill out their standard application form, and then decide not to interview you - which makes you wonder what the agency did to your CV.

Years ago, the expected limit was just one page.....................!


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## Sue (Nov 7, 2013)

Garek said:


> Hmmm mine is 3 pages. References only on the last page.


 
I never include references on a CV, knowing what recruiment agents can potentially do with them. If they want references for a specific role, they'll ask you for them. It also gives you time to check with your feferees it's okay to put them down and prime them to mention specific stuff if necessary.


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## free spirit (Nov 7, 2013)

I'd just like to point out that for small companies if you use a recruitment agency you'd have to be really fucking good for us to even consider you, because we'd have to pay a fee of £1000+ to the agent if we wanted to recruit you.

Far far better to cut them out, go direct, then you can actually write your own cover letter as well - I much prefer people who've gone to this trouble as well, as to me it automatically shows they've got a bit more about than someone who prefers to just sit back and expect someone else to find them the job (could be a bit harsh, but I took on a fucking brilliant guy from spain partially on this basis, after finding out he'd personally contacted 300 companies around Europe looking for a graduate trainee position).

Essentially if it boils down to a choice between someone I'd have to pay a £1000+ fee to hire vs someone I can just hire, and there's not much to choose between them, then the choice is always going to be to go for the person who's not got a fee attached.


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## Sapphireblue (Nov 7, 2013)

free spirit said:


> I'd just like to point out that for small companies if you use a recruitment agency you'd have to be really fucking good for us to even consider you, because we'd have to pay a fee of £1000+ to the agent if we wanted to recruit you.
> 
> Far far better to cut them out, go direct, then you can actually write your own cover letter as well - I much prefer people who've gone to this trouble as well, as to me it automatically shows they've got a bit more about than someone who prefers to just sit back and expect someone else to find them the job (could be a bit harsh, but I took on a fucking brilliant guy from spain partially on this basis, after finding out he'd personally contacted 300 companies around Europe looking for a graduate trainee position).
> 
> Essentially if it boils down to a choice between someone I'd have to pay a £1000+ fee to hire vs someone I can just hire, and there's not much to choose between them, then the choice is always going to be to go for the person who's not got a fee attached.



but often the only way to apply for a job is via job websites and the agency that is advertising the position. in my experience agencies never find you a job, they just happen to be the medium via which you contact the actual company. i never choose to use a recruitment agency, the company looking for someone chooses to do so.


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## weltweit (Nov 7, 2013)

The job I recently won was where the company listed their job directly on the job boards. I prefer to apply directly to a company but it seems most of them get to the boards via agencies.

Oddly enough a recruitment consultant I had a meeting with did say that I would likely do better with a direct advert than through an agency. I think this was because I was unemployed for a while and agencies would simply not put me forward, seeing that as a warning sign. Not sure what it was supposed to be warning of mind you!


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## weltweit (Nov 7, 2013)

After all that I have said about 2 page CVs, I was in the office of a headhunter in Cardiff some years ago and I asked him to critique my CV as I wanted to get ahead. He said to me, would you like to see the CV of someone who I just placed in a £150,000 role. Sure I said, expecting to be impressed, he brought out this sheaf of papers, it was perhaps six pages long badly laid out, irregular spacing etc etc .... I suppose the contents had to be persuasive for the role in question, that can be the only way it was successful!


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## nogojones (Nov 7, 2013)

kabbes Was this re-insuring larky alway your bag, or did you just blag it on the CV? if it is the latter then you really do have the last word on what a CV should look like


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## kabbes (Nov 8, 2013)

nogojones said:


> kabbes Was this re-insuring larky alway your bag, or did you just blag it on the CV? if it is the latter then you really do have the last word on what a CV should look like


The CV is solid, but the interviews themselves -- they were some fine work.  At one point, when asked a question about something, I said that I had been reading an interesting article about that very thing that very morning.  I then pulled out the article, which had been written by the interviewer himself.  That was a good trick.


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## Pingu (Nov 11, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> .docx



which is really just a glorified zip file

you can have some fun editing things by changing the file extension to.zip and then opening the file with winzip etc. quite handy for looking at image attachments etc


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## gabi (Nov 11, 2013)

Cant be arsed to read the thread but my answer to this is 1. Employers dont bother reading past the first page. Make it well-designed and you can squeeze it in. PM if you want some help on that.


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## weltweit (Nov 11, 2013)

gabi said:


> Cant be arsed to read the thread but my answer to this is 1. Employers dont bother reading past the first page. Make it well-designed and you can squeeze it in. PM if you want some help on that.


 
I would struggle with one page, but that said the most important things are on page 1 of my CV so if people don't look at page 2 that is fine with me.


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## RedDragon (Nov 11, 2013)

A page for each day of your life.


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## Sapphireblue (Nov 11, 2013)

weltweit said:


> I would struggle with one page, but that said the most important things are on page 1 of my CV so if people don't look at page 2 that is fine with me.



mine's the same. all the important stuff should come on the first page and be simply laid out to allow for people not bothering to read the detailed text properly / at all.


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## Winot (Nov 13, 2013)

I have to read all the CVs that come into our firm and like to see enough on the first page to enable me to make a no/maybe decision then no more than another page of detail/less relevant stuff.

I assume it's heavily industry-specific though - most in my profession (patent/trade mark law) can't stomach personal statements etc. so it needs to be very factual. For an entry level we want to see that you tick the academic boxes and have something extra; for a qualified position that you have the qualifications and the experience.


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## unrepentant85 (Nov 15, 2013)

Everyone's advice seems to have worked.  Have an interview next Friday!


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## TruXta (Nov 15, 2013)

Wahey!


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## Mapped (Nov 17, 2013)

Hope it goes well unrepentant85, good luck!

I put in an application yesterday and got my CV down to 2 pages, however they asked 3 very broad, open ended questions for the cover letter and I didn't want to leave any relevant experience out, so that letter ended up being 4 pages long.

I've another one to do tomorrow, the same organisation as the previous application, they suggested I apply for 2 of their new positions.


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## free spirit (Nov 17, 2013)

4 page cover letter? Not a good idea IMO.


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## Mapped (Nov 17, 2013)

free spirit said:


> 4 page cover letter? Not a good idea IMO.



Well the application asked for a CV and then to answer 3 broad open ended questions around skills, knowledge and experience. There was no job description at all to help prioritise what to put in so I thought it was best to put in all my experience in the field, which is loads. Everything was completely relevant to the questions. I think they haven't quite worked out what the job should be yet so I didn't want to leave anything out that might be relevant.

The one I'm applying for tomorrow has a very specific JD and requirements, so that will be a lot more concise. 

I've been having an email conversation with the people running this place over the last 2 weeks, so they already know a little bit about me.


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## free spirit (Nov 17, 2013)

I think I'd opt for a concise 1 page cover letter, with a sentence or 2 about each point, and a separate 2 page document with further details - maybe titled supplementary information or supporting information.


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## Mapped (Nov 17, 2013)

It's done and submitted now  I'll find out next week if I've got an interview or not. 

These are academics, so they're used to lots of verbiage


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## free spirit (Nov 17, 2013)

probably ok then, but for next time that'd be the best approach.

ps As well as my current role where I get maybe 1-2 speculative applications a week, I've also worked in a position where I had to sift through around hundreds of applications for around 50 positions, and in my youth spent 3-4 summers working in the clearing section for a University sifting through thousands of failed university applications to find suitable ones to make alternative offers for.

To give yourself the best possible chance of making it through the first pass to the point where the application will be properly considered you really need to be able to make it immediately obvious how and why you meet the selection criteria with just a quick scan of the 1st page cover letter and the first page of the CV. It's unlikely anyone's going to read a 4 page epic on the first pass, unless there are very few applications. Make the person doing the selections job easy and you stand a far better chance of getting to interview IMO.


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## Mapped (Nov 17, 2013)

I split it into sections an bolded the questions and put the best stuff first in each section in case they were skimming.

I've also sifted CV's and the problem we had with these types of roles was too few applicants and not enough info (and lots of obvious bullshit) so the sifts didn't take long  Luckily I found someone on here to fill our last position.

The one going in today will be 2 pages max.


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## Mapped (Nov 18, 2013)

Well my 4 page covering letter has got me an interview next Monday morning


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## mango5 (Nov 18, 2013)

xenon said:


> Apologies for hijack but since we're here... Where would you put relevant voluntary experience on a CV? Is it OK to stick it under Career history, obviously mentioning it's voluntary?


I've done so much volunteering that is proper responsible work that I stuck it almost all together in one section headed 'professional', which came after a skills summary.  I didn't make the distinction from paid work.  The fluffier volunteering made a short appearance in 'personal' which appeared at the end, after education.  It wouldn't work for everyone but it worked for me.


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## moose (Nov 19, 2013)

I seem to have been interviewing all year, and the CVs I've seen have been filtered through recruitment agencies and then our HR dept, to get them into our review system. They're probably unrecognisably from what the candidates sweated over. I usually ask if they've brought their version along at the interview.


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## gabi (Nov 19, 2013)

Yes, this is something that fucks me off. I spent ages designing my CV in Indesign (im a graphic designer) and compressing onto one beautiful page. I've seen the versions that were being sent around by agencies. They'd copied the text out of the PDF, or retyped it, i dont know and dropped into fucking WORD. in one case in comic fucking sans...


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## moose (Nov 19, 2013)

Yep, no point. At some point they'll be uploaded into a system that requires a particular file type, or copied into a database. They're not kept in a folder in a filing cabinet any more


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## Sapphireblue (Nov 20, 2013)

i ALWAYS take a print out of my lovely cv with me to interviews and hand it over just to prove that it was formatted correctly at one point!


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## Mapped (Nov 25, 2013)

This is far too early for an interview. Got both of them back to back and I think I've over-caffeinated myself


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## Mapped (Nov 25, 2013)

Since when did I have a stutter


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

It seems as though I got the job  4/5 page cover letters FTW

I've a call later to discuss details.


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## cesare (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> It seems as though I got the job  4/5 page cover letters FTW
> 
> I've a call later to discuss details.


Yay! Congrats!


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yay! Congrats!



Thanks, it's on the other side of the planet though. I think this is going to make my life and relationship quite complicated. They need to be offering a good salary.


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## cesare (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> Thanks, it's on the other side of the planet though. I think this is going to make my life and relationship quite complicated. They need to be offering a good salary.


Some difficult decisions ahead then. However it turns out though, they've offered you the job and that's a fantastic achievement. Good luck!


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

cesare said:


> Some difficult decisions ahead then. However it turns out though, they've offered you the job and that's a fantastic achievement. Good luck!



I'm very surprised they offered it to me to be honest.

Difficult is an understatement. To me it's an amazing job, in what looks like a great place, doing things I can't do here, but my wife has gone from liking the idea to really hating it


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## cesare (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I'm very surprised they offered it to me to be honest.
> 
> Difficult is an understatement. To me it's an amazing job, in what looks like a great place, doing things I can't do here, but my wife has gone from liking the idea to really hating it


Is it the location (with stress of moving, separation from family and friends, plus leaving her own work/commitments) that's now putting her off?


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## Manter (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I'm very surprised they offered it to me to be honest.
> 
> Difficult is an understatement. To me it's an amazing job, in what looks like a great place, doing things I can't do here, but my wife has gone from liking the idea to really hating it


That could be stress/ concern... How long do you have to make a decision?


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

cesare said:


> Is it the location (with stress of moving, separation from family and friends, plus leaving her own work/commitments) that's now putting her off?



Yes, she's scared about the whole thing. She had a few years where she was redundant and in crappy temp jobs and also had some depression. She's better now, but is worried it might come back on the other side of the world and she'd need her support network. I'm not asking her to go forever, it's a 2 year contract, we're not going to sell our house and I've already got someone lined up to rent it off us if we go.  

With the money that's being offered she wouldn't need a full time job, and she doesn't really like working and isn't that career focused.


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> That could be stress/ concern... How long do you have to make a decision?



I don't know, I'm speaking to them this afternoon. I'm going to need a while. It took them a week to get back to me, so I'm not sure if they're in a massive hurry.


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## fractionMan (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> It seems as though I got the job  4/5 page cover letters FTW
> 
> I've a call later to discuss details.


congrats


----------



## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> congrats



heh. It's for the one we talked about where I'd have to learn a bit. 

Although as per the conversation above I might not be going anywhere!


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## fractionMan (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> heh. It's for the one we talked about where I'd have to learn a bit.
> 
> Although as per the conversation above I might not be going anywhere!



"a bit" 

Sounds awesome.  Hope it works out.


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> "a bit"
> 
> Sounds awesome.  Hope it works out.



Yeah, that's an understatement. They know my skill level though, I didn't bullshit, they must be fucking desperate


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## cesare (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> Yes, she's scared about the whole thing. She had a few years where she was redundant and in crappy temp jobs and also had some depression. She's better now, but is worried it might come back on the other side of the world and she'd need her support network. I'm not asking her to go forever, it's a 2 year contract, we're not going to sell our house and I've already got someone lined up to rent it off us if we go.
> 
> With the money that's being offered she wouldn't need a full time job, and she doesn't really like working and isn't that career focused.


It sounds as though she'd need a proper plan B to parachute out if her fears are realised. Talking through what you'd both do if it all went tits up with her health and happiness might give her some reassurance. At the moment it might seem too huge a jump without a safety net.


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

cesare said:


> It sounds as though she'd need a proper plan B to parachute out if her fears are realised. Talking through what you'd both do if it all went tits up with her health and happiness might give her some reassurance. At the moment it might seem too huge a jump without a safety net.



I've been thinking about just this. My best mate wants to take our house on, so that wouldn't be going anywhere and we could come back to it early. Financially we're OK if it all goes tit's up. I'm explaining this to her, but she does't want to listen


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## cesare (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I've been thinking about just this. My best mate wants to take our house on, so that wouldn't be going anywhere and we could come back to it early. Financially we're OK if it all goes tit's up. I'm explaining this to her, but she does't want to listen


Another angle is to ask the new employer what provision they're making for relocation support. A properly thought out relocation package covering accommodation/housing, medical, flights back to UK etc might help?


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

cesare said:


> Another angle is to ask the new employer what provision they're making for relocation support. A properly thought out relocation package covering accommodation/housing, medical, flights back to UK etc might help?



That's on my list for this afternoon's conversation. I'll try and get the best package I can and go back to Mrs Mapped with it. I'm not sure money's the problem here though.


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## cesare (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> That's on my list for this afternoon's conversation. I'll try and get the best package I can and go back to Mrs Mapped with it. I'm not sure money's the problem here though.


It's not so much the money as the support/having someone else help with organising it.


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

cesare said:


> It's not so much the money as the support/having someone else help with organising it.



She'd leave that to me anyway  But that's a good point, I'd like some of that.


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## Manter (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> That's on my list for this afternoon's conversation. I'll try and get the best package I can and go back to Mrs Mapped with it. I'm not sure money's the problem here though.


 Do you know precisely what her concern is?

I turned down a job because the Northerner basically said he'd follow my career but not to there! It was in Qatar, which I had reservations about, but the job was amazing.  But the location was enough of a problem to cancel that out: specifically for us way of life/culture/ability to do interesting stuff- we did a bit of research and my excitement tailed off while his reservations seemed grounded. Whereas a job in Africa (I eventually didn't get) looked more exciting when we started looking at what it's mean for us, even though they'd had problems getting someone to agree to go. But both decisions/discussions took days, we needed to work through an emotional 'arc' to get to an answer, as initial reactions changed with time, information, discussion, thought...


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## fractionMan (Dec 2, 2013)

I imagine she's wondering "what the hell am I going to do for two years?"


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## chilango (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I've been thinking about just this. My best mate wants to take our house on, so that wouldn't be going anywhere and we could come back to it early. Financially we're OK if it all goes tit's up. I'm explaining this to her, but she does't want to listen



What sort of country would you be moving to?

Not that really makes much difference these days.

In my experience if people move abroad reluctantly, following a partner, they usually don't enjoy it. It can put a terrible strain on a relationship with every little problem magnified and blamed on the move. Others stoically grin and bear it, maybe for life, but it's always there in the background. Some end up thriving and loving it more than the partner who wanted to move In the first place.

I'm kinda of in this position at the moment, albeit reversed, in that I've followed partner back to the UK, when truth be told I didn't really want to "come home". And it's tough. I can be very unfair in blaming her for things 'cos of this. 

It's a big risk.


That said, working abroad can be an amazing experience. I loved it. Most people I know who've done it did too. Even those who were ready to come after a year or two. but you both have to be fully committed to going it a go. Doing it with half an eye cast backwards and an easy escape plan is a recipe for trouble IME.

Sorry, I doubt that helped!


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> Do you know precisely what her concern is?
> 
> I turned down a job because the Northerner basically said he'd follow my career but not to there! It was in Qatar, which I had reservations about, but the job was amazing.  But the location was enough of a problem to cancel that out: specifically for us way of life/culture/ability to do interesting stuff- we did a bit of research and my excitement tailed off while his reservations seemed grounded. Whereas a job in Africa (I eventually didn't get) looked more exciting when we started looking at what it's mean for us, even though they'd had problems getting someone to agree to go. But both decisions/discussions took days, we needed to work through an emotional 'arc' to get to an answer, as initial reactions changed with time, information, discussion, thought...



This isn't Qatar or Dubai or anywhere that silly, I wouldn't move to a middle eastern country. It's Perth in Western Australia, and not working in mining. So it'll be a change in culture, but not a massive one.

Her main concern is that since we bought our house and she got settled in a job (which she currently bitches about constantly ) she feels secure and with good people around her. She had a really shit and insecure childhood so this security is a big thing. She thinks she'll lose it by moving and that all this will make her unstable, as she came off some medication about a year ago. I think in the long term it'll increase our security through my career. As you say I think we'll need some time to discuss this. The only thing that worries me about this is I've seen her like this before and she can completely close up and refuse to engage with stuff. This is going to be a tough sell, but I'm going to try.


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> I imagine she's wondering "what the hell am I going to do for two years?"



She's not too concerned about career stuff, but yeah she probably is wondering. If she wants to work, she can, if she wants to study she can, if she wants take it easier than she does here then she can. We need to discuss what she might or might not want to do.

I've massively derailed this thread about CV's


----------



## fractionMan (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> She's not too concerned about career stuff, but yeah she probably is wondering. If she wants to work, she can, if she wants to study she can, if she wants take it easier than she does here then she can. We need to discuss what she might or might not want to do.
> 
> I've massively derailed this thread about CV's



lets go for a beer tomorrow


----------



## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> lets go for a beer tomorrow



I need it now  I've got a room full of phd students to entertain in an hour and a half and this isn't the preparation I planned for this morning!


----------



## Manter (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> This isn't Qatar or Dubai or anywhere that silly, I wouldn't move to a middle eastern country. It's Perth in Western Australia, and not working in mining. So it'll be a change in culture, but not a massive one.
> 
> Her main concern is that since we bought our house and she got settled in a job (which she currently bitches about constantly ) she feels secure and with good people around her. She had a really shit and insecure childhood so this security is a big thing. She thinks she'll lose it by moving and that all this will make her unstable, as she came off some medication about a year ago. I think in the long term it'll increase our security through my career. As you say I think we'll need some time to discuss this. The only thing that worries me about this is I've seen her like this before and she can completely close up and refuse to engage with stuff. This is going to be a tough sell, but I'm going to try.


Tough one. I can empathise as I have a history of depression and was terrified of having my baby as I was convinced I would end up a depressive wreck. That worry can be crippling and hold you back from doing stuff you want to do. Actually I am fine, partly I think because I was/am prepared and partly because I and the Northerner are looking out for issues and flags. Can you investigate how her issue is dealt with over there, treatment, availability of medication, peer support so she feels there is a safety net in place in case the worst happens and she is ill again? Also, if the route back is clear- repatriation support, your house still being there- that may help. But it's also worth her talking to a counsellor, IMO, as mental illness can cripple you with the fear of moving forward, making decisions, taking risks 'in case' and she probably needs to work that through


----------



## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

Manter said:


> Tough one. *I can empathise as I have a history of depression and was terrified of having my baby as I was convinced I would end up a depressive wreck.* That worry can be crippling and hold you back from doing stuff you want to do. Actually I am fine, partly I think because I was/am prepared and partly because I and the Northerner are looking out for issues and flags. Can you investigate how her issue is dealt with over there, treatment, availability of medication, peer support so she feels there is a safety net in place in case the worst happens and she is ill again? Also, if the route back is clear- repatriation support, your house still being there- that may help. But it's also worth her talking to a counsellor, IMO, as mental illness can cripple you with the fear of moving forward, making decisions, taking risks 'in case' and she probably needs to work that through



I think this is also a factor here. We're trying to start a family and she really wants a child, more than me tbh, but I'm pretty sure this aspect scares her. One of our freinds completely lost it like this, she's better now, but it was pretty tough for them for a while. 

All she's talking about today is that I'm trying to take her safety away. This sort of opportunity is bound to come up again in the future and I'd rather do it now, before there's kids.


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## kabbes (Dec 2, 2013)

Congratulations Mapped, and I hope it works out for you.  But...



Mapped said:


> I'm explaining this to her, but she does't want to listen



It reads very much to me like _you're_ the one who doesn't want to listen.


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## trashpony (Dec 2, 2013)

I would be massively wary of moving to another country if you're planning to have children in the near future. It's a massive thing which will put strain on the relationship (particularly if your wife isn't 100% behind the move) and it can be very, very lonely with a new baby. Your wife will need her support system around her


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## Mapped (Dec 2, 2013)

kabbes said:


> Congratulations Mapped, and I hope it works out for you.  But...
> 
> 
> 
> It reads very much to me like _you're_ the one who doesn't want to listen.



You're probably right there. It's a bit shit here tonight  I've been doing a lot of listening, but I do keep thinking, it's only 2 years. However we both need to be in this together and it doesn't look like that will happen now.



trashpony said:


> I would be massively wary of moving to another country if you're planning to have children in the near future. It's a massive thing which will put strain on the relationship (particularly if your wife isn't 100% behind the move) and it can be very, very lonely with a new baby. Your wife will need her support system around her



I've been talking with a mate who's just done this twice in SE Asia and he says it's probably helped them to meet people. But yes I can see where all these fears regarding the support system are coming from.


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## trashpony (Dec 2, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I've been talking with a mate who's just done this twice in SE Asia and he says it's probably helped them to meet people. But yes I can see where all these fears regarding the support system are coming from.


It's really scary being pregnant the first time and personally I wouldn't want to do it in another country - you don't know the systems or where to get support or who to ask if things go wrong. 

But all this is a moot point if your wife doesn't want to go.


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## Mapped (Dec 3, 2013)

Well we seem to have gone through the massively emotional stage, to something more rational. I've been told not to say anything one way or another and to try and buy some time to decide properly.


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## chilango (Dec 3, 2013)

trashpony said:


> It's really scary being pregnant the first time and personally I wouldn't want to do it in another country - you don't know the systems or where to get support or who to ask if things go wrong.
> 
> But all this is a moot point if your wife doesn't want to go.



We had our baby living abroad and it was fine. A relatively chilled experience. But we'd both got a decade or so overseas under our belts at this stage.


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## trashpony (Dec 3, 2013)

chilango said:


> We had our baby living abroad and it was fine. A relatively chilled experience. But we'd both got a decade or so overseas under our belts at this stage.


Sorry - I meant if you've just moved there. Obviously if you've been living there for ages, it's different.


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## Sapphireblue (Dec 3, 2013)

Mapped said:


> I think this is also a factor here. We're trying to start a family and she really wants a child, more than me tbh, but I'm pretty sure this aspect scares her. One of our freinds completely lost it like this, she's better now, but it was pretty tough for them for a while.
> 
> All she's talking about today is that I'm trying to take her safety away. This sort of opportunity is bound to come up again in the future and I'd rather do it now, before there's kids.



i think if you go it will be because you've decided to wait for kids until after you've come back. because if she's already nervous about losing her support there's absolutely no way it's a good idea to be pregnant/have a small child without it. 

so, the real question is, can you / she wait two years for kids? if not, then going is almost certainly a bad idea.


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## chilango (Dec 3, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Sorry - I meant if you've just moved there. Obviously if you've been living there for ages, it's different.



Yep. Absolutely. Especially if one partner isn't 100% about the move to begin with.


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## Mapped (Dec 3, 2013)

Sapphireblue said:


> i think if you go it will be because you've decided to wait for kids until after you've come back. because if she's already nervous about losing her support there's absolutely no way it's a good idea to be pregnant/have a small child without it.
> 
> so, the real question is, can you / she wait two years for kids? if not, then going is almost certainly a bad idea.



We're both 33 so this isn't ideal timing.  

The thing is with this stuff is that she's always very, very resistant to any type of change, we had a similar experience to all this when we moved a few miles up the road from Islington to Walthamstow. This particular change might be a bit much though.


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## Sapphireblue (Dec 3, 2013)

Mapped said:


> We're both 33 so this isn't ideal timing.
> 
> The thing is with this stuff is that she's always very, very resistant to any type of change, we had a similar experience to all this when we moved a few miles up the road from Islington to Walthamstow. This particular change might be a bit much though.



in that case i'm sorry to say that whilst this sounds like a fabulous experience for you it may well be too much to ask of her. 

it's a shame because obviously one of you is going to have to make a choice they're not really happy with.

is there any chance of going for just one year? that might take the edge off.


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## kabbes (Dec 3, 2013)

I empathise with having a partner resistant to change.  But you have to trust that they know themselves.  Forcing a change that then makes them really unhappy isn't going to be worth the improved job.


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## unrepentant85 (Dec 3, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> Everyone's advice seems to have worked.  Have an interview next Friday!


Interview went well. Got informed I was the only candidate and that someone I used to work with had put in a good word (I didnt even know they worked there). So left feeling pretty positive.

Wednesday came and I had heard nothing from the agency so called looking for feedback. They never got back to me.
Then yesterday I called again. The promise of contacting me with feedback from the potential employers by the end of the day never came.

Then today I get an email from a job website with matching vacancies.  The agency has relisted the job! Thanks for keeping me in the loop! Arseholes.


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## Mapped (Dec 3, 2013)

fractionMan said:


> lets go for a beer tomorrow



Cheers, that was just what I needed  Although I'm slightly worried about our alcohol intake at the moment


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## kabbes (Dec 3, 2013)

unrepentant85 said:


> Interview went well. Got informed I was the only candidate and that someone I used to work with had put in a good word (I didnt even know they worked there). So left feeling pretty positive.
> 
> Wednesday came and I had heard nothing from the agency so called looking for feedback. They never got back to me.
> Then yesterday I called again. The promise of contacting me with feedback from the potential employers by the end of the day never came.
> ...


Then you want to work for them anyway.  Fuckers.


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## Bob_the_lost (Dec 4, 2013)

A nice call from a trawling recruitment agent who'd found a two year old copy of my CV floating about the net and failed to do any more research than that.

On the plus side it's a reminder that I need to rewrite my CV, it's now got to go from a 'role based' to 'Project based'.


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## Mapped (Dec 4, 2013)

kabbes said:


> I empathise with having a partner resistant to change.  But you have to trust that they know themselves.  Forcing a change that then makes them really unhappy isn't going to be worth the improved job.



I know and I'm not going to force her to move. We'd both had a drink today, so we decided not to discuss it at all this evening. She spent today with her mum and they discussed it, so I'm going to try and have a chat with my MiL tomorrow, to try and reassure her more than anything.

I had the call about details today, the job has been upgraded to running a small team and the package is very good financially as well as relocation and people there offering to help to find Mrs Mapped work in advance. I know this doesn't solve the support network aspect though. We have until next Thursday to make a decision. If she changes her mind by then, then great; I'm not going to force it and try to batter her into submission and I don't want to drag someone around the world who doesn't want to be there.



Sapphireblue said:


> is there any chance of going for just one year? that might take the edge off.



Maybe. I'm working in the same industry now, so if the answer is no and I explored it there could well be a possibility of a secondment from where I currently work. Its not what they are after, but I can ask. By the sounds of it these guys need lots of people and they don't have enough around there.

This thing's playing havoc with my sleep


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## kabbes (Dec 4, 2013)

When I was about 26, I was offered a dream job in Bermuda for twice the salary (tax-free). They flew me and my now-wife out there for a week to try to persuade us. They were similarly offering it all.

My girlfriend-as-was sounds similar to your wife and just didn't want to do it, and we didn't go. I am SO glad we didn't! I think she was right about how she would react. Instead, we built ourselves a life here, and I now have a much better job than I would have done anyway. I now think of that decision as a lucky escape.

Your situation is obviously different. But remember that staying also contains a range of different options. It's not this job or nothing.


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## Mapped (Dec 8, 2013)

Well to further derail this thread, we're definitely doing it, and I haven't bullied her into it  I told my boss on Friday and we'll be out there in Feb. Mrs Mapped is handing her notice in tomorrow.

Mrs Mapped can see the long term opportunities in this, and the fact that it's only 2 years out there. Our family has been very supportive of this and they all think its great; we have retired parents who will be over there like a shot to help out if she becomes pregnant. We've already got our first friends visiting in June, as my mate is running the Perth marathon. We've found a good job opportunity that would suit her and the manager of that post seems very keen, we'll have to see how the application process goes though. We'll try and get her sorted with something before we leave.

We were talking about her previous travels in Australia last night and she seems keen to go back and explore the place a bit more now. I think we can sort out a nice life for ourselves over there, we can afford to rent a decent place with no commute to work and near loads of decent facilities etc. All the admin involved this is getting a bit daunting though!


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## trashpony (Dec 8, 2013)

Sounds great Mapped 
And glad you're taking the cat too


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## Mapped (Dec 8, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Sounds great Mapped
> And glad you're taking the cat too



That cat was part of my negotiations with my new employer  They're funding his move too.


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## unrepentant85 (Jan 10, 2014)

Got that job I had an interview for ages ago and I start Monday!

My last day at old job today has involved lots of tv and movie watching


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## Maurice Picarda (Feb 1, 2014)

Just done one for a job where I already have the interview confirmed, and it's with someone whom I've met before a few times, so not agonising too much over it. 1 page, no personal statement, 336 words of which 135 are the key achievements in my current role. Calibri.


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## Me76 (Feb 1, 2014)

I like Calibri as a font. A place I used to work it was their corporate font.  

On my CV an for personal letters I use Ariel narrow.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 1, 2014)

Calibri is the default font in Office. As far as default fonts go, it's better than Arial or Times New Roman.


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## weltweit (Feb 1, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Calibri is the default font in Office. As far as default fonts go, it's better than Arial or Times New Roman.


I agree.

I had my CV in arial for a long time and a very helpful agency person offered to spice it up for me, she improved it no end and also changed the font to Calibri, I accepted all her changes.


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## Me76 (Feb 1, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Calibri is the default font in Office. As far as default fonts go, it's better than Arial or Times New Roman.


I hate times new roman almost as much as I hate comic sans.  If someone sent me a CV in tnr it would get dismissed immediately.


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 1, 2014)

Me76 said:


> I hate times new roman almost as much as I hate comic sans.  If someone sent me a CV in tnr it would get dismissed immediately.


It used to mean "doesn't know how to change font", now it means "using a version of Word from the 19th century and still doesn't know how to change font".


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## FridgeMagnet (Feb 1, 2014)

I, of course, create my own font, scanned and vectorised from my own calligraphy (available on Github under an MIT licence) and provide my CV in PDF, Markdown and as a Unity application that has thousands of tiny retro pixel sprites performing it as interpretative dance.


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