# Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims



## Ole (Aug 26, 2014)

> *At least 1,400 children were subjected to appalling sexual exploitation in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013, a report has found.*
> 
> Children as young as 11 were raped by multiple perpetrators, abducted, trafficked to other cities in England, beaten and intimidated, it said.
> 
> ...



http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

Words fail me.


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## weepiper (Aug 26, 2014)

South Yorkshire Police. Still rotten to the core.


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

'update, my friend, a long time foster mother, was banned by the council there when she raised these issues, it was described as 'cultural', she is going ballistic now and thinking of going public.'



just posted this on the other thread, time for a long hard think.


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## aqua (Aug 26, 2014)

Jesus fucking Christ


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

Guardian not allowing comments on the articles about this.


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## killer b (Aug 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> time for a long hard think.


for who?


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## Kesher (Aug 26, 2014)

Political correctness


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## 1%er (Aug 26, 2014)




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## marty21 (Aug 26, 2014)

Kesher said:


> Political correctness


 what do you mean?


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## 8115 (Aug 26, 2014)

"Half of young people in secure homes innocent of any crime".  This article the other day really shocked me and made me think about, the tension between keeping young people safe and allowing them freedom.  There's got to be a middle way.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/23/half-young-people-in-secure-homes-innocent-of-crime


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2014)

I think the line will be officials were so afraid of being branded racists they would or could not investigate groups involved in appalling behavior if they were not white. 

I think it was more a despicable cover up. Pity the weeping children.


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## bluescreen (Aug 26, 2014)

Racism given licence and gone mad.


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## marty21 (Aug 26, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I think the line will be officials were so afraid of being branded racists they would or could not investigate groups involved in appalling behavior if they were not white.
> 
> I think it was more a despicable cover up. Pity the weeping children.


yep, add to that weak political leadership


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## twentythreedom (Aug 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> Guardian not allowing comments on the articles about this.


The Mail are. Oh yes.


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## Poot (Aug 26, 2014)

Of course a large number of these girls probably dressed much older than their years, had low self esteem and regional accents and therefore weren't considered to be vulnerable underage teenage girls whose lives were blighted by criminal abuse, they were just "slags" who brought it upon themselves.

I could weep with frustration sometimes, I really could.


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## weepiper (Aug 26, 2014)

This is unimaginably grim.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 26, 2014)

8115 said:


> "Half of young people in secure homes innocent of any crime".  This article the other day really shocked me and made me think about, the tension between keeping young people safe and allowing them freedom.  There's got to be a middle way.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/23/half-young-people-in-secure-homes-innocent-of-crime



Things have normally got to have gone quite mental for a kid to end up secure. Plus fortunately for young people in care they have to do something pretty serious for the police to push for a conviction, rather the issuing them with a caution. (In my very limited experience anyway)


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## 8115 (Aug 26, 2014)

Global Stoner said:


> Things have normally got to have gone quite mental for a kid to end up secure. Plus fortunately for young people in care they have to do something pretty serious for the police to push for a conviction, rather the issuing them with a caution. (In my very limited experience anyway)


From what I know of what was happening in Rochdale, girls who were vulnerable were often those for who things had got quite bad anyway.  I thought many of them had been placed away from home, leaving them more vulnerable.  I haven't really followed the coverage because I can't stand reading the details though.

eta am I getting the name of the place wrong or were there 2?  Told you I haven't been following coverage.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 26, 2014)

Fucking hell


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## RedDragon (Aug 26, 2014)

I had a half hour wait for an appointment at my local town hall and this press conference was being broadcast on the waiting room tv, I felt like weeping. Grim doesn't touch it.


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## Shirl (Aug 26, 2014)

aqua said:


> Jesus fucking Christ


I beggars belief. How the hell could that happen for so long?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 26, 2014)

8115 said:


> From what I know of what was happening in Rochdale, girls who were vulnerable were often those for who things had got quite bad anyway.  I thought many of them had been placed away from home, leaving them more vulnerable.  I haven't really followed the coverage because I can't stand reading the details though.
> 
> eta am I getting the name of the place wrong or were there 2?  Told you I haven't been following coverage.



I don't know the specifics of the case, so will stop commenting after this, but young people are normally placed further away from home, to make them less vulnerable, normally when there is a risk to them in their local areas.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 26, 2014)

The "we didn't want to appear racist" thing is such a fucking cop out. It makes me sick.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> Guardian not allowing comments on the articles about this.



thats because the comments section will be filled up with a)racists, and b) libel.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 26, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I think the line will be officials were so afraid of being branded racists they would or could not investigate groups involved in appalling behavior if they were not white.
> 
> I think it was more a despicable cover up. Pity the weeping children.



i agree.


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## Glitter (Aug 26, 2014)

poptyping said:


> The "we didn't want to appear racist" thing is such a fucking cop out. It makes me sick.



Me too.

'We didn't give a shit about these children' doesn't appease their consciences the same does it?


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## 1%er (Aug 26, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I think the line will be officials were so afraid of being branded racists they would or could not investigate groups involved in appalling behavior if they were not white.
> 
> I think it was more a despicable cover up. Pity the weeping children.


Yes, this is what the report says


> Within the Council, we found no evidence of children's social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases, including CSE [Child Sexual Abuse]. In the broader organisational context, however, there was a widespread perception that messages conveyed by some senior people in the Council and also the Police, were to 'downplay' the ethnic dimensions of CSE. Unsurprisingly, frontline staff appeared to be confused as to what they were supposed to say and do and what would be interpreted as 'racist'. From a political perspective, the approach of avoiding public discussion of the issues was ill judged.


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## Kesher (Aug 26, 2014)

marty21 said:


> what do you mean?



I think you know what I mean


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## brogdale (Aug 26, 2014)

UKIP gained 16% between 2010 & the McShame by-election in 2012; Ms Champion must be quietly eyeing up other career options atm.


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## killer b (Aug 26, 2014)

Kesher said:


> I think you know what I mean


perhaps you should tell us what you're getting at explicitly - after all, isn't the people not feeling able to speak out part of the problem here?


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## The39thStep (Aug 26, 2014)

brogdale said:


> UKIP gained 16% between 2010 & the McShame by-election in 2012; Ms Champion must be quietly eyeing up other career options atm.


Didn't they get a good vote there in the euros as well?


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## brogdale (Aug 26, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Didn't they get a good vote there in the euros as well?


 Yep, 4.5k > Lab


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 26, 2014)

Kesher said:


> I think you know what I mean



Nope, please be clear.


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## savoloysam (Aug 26, 2014)

Once again suspensions that officials on the inside although not involved directly were involved in cover ups. Why.The.Fuck would they do that?


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## dylanredefined (Aug 26, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> Once again suspensions that officials on the inside although not involved directly were involved in cover ups. Why.The.Fuck would they do that?



   Because  oh fuck we have fucked up and jobs are on the line. People can be weak and  cowardly, and doing the  right thing on a bad day is a lot harder than passing the buck..


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...otherham-children-sexually-abused-full-report

in full here,

its the main item on BBC News, not sure it will be at Ten.


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## Thora (Aug 26, 2014)

Poot said:


> Of course a large number of these girls probably dressed much older than their years, had low self esteem and regional accents and therefore weren't considered to be vulnerable underage teenage girls whose lives were blighted by criminal abuse, they were just "slags" who brought it upon themselves.
> 
> I could weep with frustration sometimes, I really could.


They were making "lifestyle choices".


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## Poot (Aug 26, 2014)

Thora said:


> They were making "lifestyle choices".


Yeah. At 13. With no support system in place and no idea of what to expect from life.


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## Ole (Aug 26, 2014)

weepiper said:


> View attachment 60103
> 
> This is unimaginably grim.


Can't stomach reading more of this. Sick, evil fucking animals.


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## happie chappie (Aug 26, 2014)

What happened in Rotherham is unbelievable. Or it would be if it hadn’t already happened, to a greater or lesser extent, in Derby, Oxford, Rochdale and, according to many experts, in every major town and city in the UK.

At least the leader of the Council took some responsibility and has gone - not before time.

Kimber, the squirming shit, has refused to resign. His interview on the PM tonight was nothing short of a disgrace. More of the “lessons learned”, “new policies and procedures in place” crap.

It transpires that although 1,400 vulnerable children were abused, more or less under the noses of the Council, not one employee has been subject to disciplinary action, let alone dismissed. Some have gone on to bigger and better jobs elsewhere.

All Kimber could say was that the Council would be informing their new employers, and it would up to them to decide what action, if any, they are going to take. Talk about passing the buck.

He’ll have to resign sooner or later as the spotlight’s now going to be on him. Best he goes now to preserve what little dignity he has left.

I hope it’s the last job he ever gets in local government - or anywhere else for that matter.

Having said that never forget the survivors and the perpetrators. I hope the former get all the help they need, and more to deal with the difficulties they will have to face for the rest of their lives. For many it's going to be too late.

As for the latter - sorry, it’s time for the death penalty for the ringleaders. Fuck them.

For the rest, castration, incarceration and no segregation so that the rest of the prison population can let them know what they think about this type of sex offender.


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## fogbat (Aug 26, 2014)

Kesher said:


> Political correctness


Difficult Truths.

They're like that, though, aren't they? You know the ones.


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## likesfish (Aug 26, 2014)

Sorry kimber you were in post when this atrocity was happening you need to go.
 Some people  probably were afraid of being accused of being racist but thats not an excuse not on this scale.


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## happie chappie (Aug 26, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Sorry kimber you were in post when this atrocity was happening you need to go.
> Some people  probably were afraid of being accused of being racist but thats not an excuse not on this scale.



Just remembered another Kimber quote from the PM interview - the classic:

"I'm part of the solution. I'm not part of the problem."

Yes. He really did say that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04f9r9p

From about 11 minutes in.


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## Celt (Aug 26, 2014)

Grim as fuck and dark,I am horrified and speechless.


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## likesfish (Aug 26, 2014)

No your not you were on duty when this shit happened maybe not for all of it but some of it happened on your watch.

Ok your not a child protection specialist fair one but 1400 victims over 16 years I'm sorry thats indefensible anyone who was management or involved in any way needs to go and  properly disciplinary procedure i's dotted t's crossed so we dont have asharon shoesmith sit where they get a 6 figure payoff.


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2014)

Will this lead to the truth or another series of Frank Beck amphetamine demises?


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

Daily Mirror front page is highlighting 'Asian gangs' very prominently, bit surprised at them, Kevin McQuire is Executive Editor and is usually more sussed, etc then that. It is also on every front page of every U.k newspaper. its also had 800 views on here which suggests Google is noting this thread.

btw, do posters think low level social workers just lose their jobs even though they are in other cities, posts, etc now, or is it senior levels whose should face sanctions or both?


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> btw, do posters think low level social workers just lose their jobs even though they are in other cities, posts, etc now, or is it senior levels whose should face sanctions or both?


If they knew about any abuse and did nothing effective including resigning then out of the industry they go, for ever. If they were complicit, then well, just kill yourselves.


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## savoloysam (Aug 26, 2014)

Anyone who knew and did nothing should be brought to justice IMO. There should be some kind of laws for willful negligence in cases like these


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

TopCat said:


> If they knew about any abuse and did nothing effective including resigning then out of the industry they go, for ever. If they were complicit, then well, just kill yourselves.




I agree but be aware social workers are under tremendous pressure, especially child protection teams,

btw, does the left(in its widest sense) have any culpability?, some of them fostered an atmosphere where you just couldn't raise certain issues?


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## Lurdan (Aug 26, 2014)

Kimber was appointed in 2009, however the worst failings seem to have occurred under his predecessor Mike Cuff who was in post from 2004 to 2009 - the period when reports and briefings to Councillors and senior officers made clear the scale of the child sexual abuse and the systemic failings in the Council's response, and yet they still failed to respond adequately.

If you want heads on a plates I'd suggest an even better candidate would be Shaun Wright who was Council Cabinet Member with responsibility for Children and Young People’s services between 2005 and 2010, then Vice Chairman of the South Yorkshire Police Authority and is currently the elected South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner.

However personally I don't want to see token resignations as a public relations substitute for adequate resources being devoted to dealing with sexual abuse and supporting the victims. Particularly since the Jay report makes clear that Council funding cuts are set to affect Social Services in the future.


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## killer b (Aug 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> btw, does the left(in its widest sense) have any culpability?, some of them fostered an atmosphere where you just couldn't raise certain issues?


no.


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## happie chappie (Aug 26, 2014)

I’m not going to use the “PC” term as it’s just a lazy way of dealing with a sensitive subject.

However, I’ve conducted, and been otherwise party to, investigations in to allegations of racism in local government and I can tell you that some employees are worried about being labelled a racist and would rather opt for a quiet life rather than speak out. For them it’s simply not worth it.

Being called a racist can be potentially career-ending, even if the allegation is unfounded. Some of the mud sticks and there is often a “no smoke without fire” attitude from both colleagues and managers, many of whom do not want risk being tarred with the same brush.

I’m in no position to say what part, if any, this played in Rotherham.

But if individual, relatively junior, social workers say that they felt under pressure, even if it was unspoken, not to address certain issues I don’t think it should be dismissed as, in my experience, it does happen.


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I’m not going to use the “PC” term as it’s just a lazy way of dealing with a sensitive subject.
> 
> However, I’ve conducted, and been otherwise party to, investigations in to allegations of racism in local government and I can tell you that some employees are worried about being labelled a racist and would rather opt for a quiet life rather than speak out. For them it’s simply not worth it.
> 
> ...




yes, see the Unison 'three monkeys' thread, I've had experience of these 'witch hunts' and they come very close to stalinism


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

http://news.sky.com/story/1325098/rotherham-girl-abused-by-hundreds-of-men


This girls story is heart breaking, she is incredibly brave and my heart goes out to her, she appears to have 'come through' to a degree and I'm sure all urbanites would wish her well for the future..


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## Betsy (Aug 26, 2014)

Ole said:


> http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089
> 
> *Words fail me.*


Me too ..yet again.


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> btw, does the left(in its widest sense) have any culpability?, some of them fostered an atmosphere where you just couldn't raise certain issues?


Some people do who might self identify as left. Given though the core issues of leftism like justice, emancipation, equality, freedom, I would suggest many of the so called left have always been nothing but cunts.


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## happie chappie (Aug 26, 2014)

treelover said:


> yes, see the Unison 'three monkeys' thread, I've had experience of these 'witch hunts' and they come very close to stalinism



Yes - and sometimes the people conducting the witch hunt are doing so because they want to be seen as being on the "right" side of the argument lest they be accused of being soft on racism, or worse.


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## treelover (Aug 26, 2014)

> It's not as if there was a lack of evidence of a growing problem on Rotherham's streets.
> Internal reports from a decade ago revealed "links between child sexual exploitation and drugs, guns and criminality".
> Schools raised the alert about children being picked up "by taxis, given presents and mobile phones and* taken to meet large numbers of unknown males*".
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/26/rotherham-child-sex-exploitation-capital



These large groups of men, they haven't been prosecuted yet, will they be?


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 26, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I’m not going to use the “PC” term as it’s just a lazy way of dealing with a sensitive subject.
> 
> However, I’ve conducted, and been otherwise party to, investigations in to allegations of racism in local government and I can tell you that some employees are worried about being labelled a racist and would rather opt for a quiet life rather than speak out. For them it’s simply not worth it.
> 
> ...



I'd rather be, falsely, called a racist and speak out than allow this fucking awful shit to continue happen to young vulnerable girls. That people may have known about this and put themselves,  their reputation and career first fucking sickness me. Anyone who knew about this and did nothing us complicit. Fuck them.


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2014)

The young women were regarded as worthless, scum from the estates, by almost everyone who knew what was going on.


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## happie chappie (Aug 26, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I'd rather be, falsely, called a racist and speak out than allow this fucking awful shit to continue happen to young vulnerable girls. That people may have known about this and put themselves,  their reputation and career first fucking sickness me. Anyone who knew about this and did nothing us complicit. Fuck them.



I would like to think that I'd blow the whistle too. But not everyone is so strong. Employees can be bullied, threatened and manipulated by senior managers into keeping quiet. It may not be right but it happens.

You only have to look at what happens to NHS whistleblowers to understand why some people turn a blind eye.


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## Lurdan (Aug 26, 2014)

The relevant section of the Jay report - quoted on the previous page of this thread - states clearly that the primary problem wasn't among front line staff


> we found no evidence of children's social care staff being influenced by concerns about the ethnic origins of suspected perpetrators when dealing with individual child protection cases


but with senior management, Council members and the Police. As is made clear elsewhere in the report they refused to accept the nature and scale of the sexual abuse and some actively discouraged discussion of the ethnicity of offenders.

But how on earth is that the most significant aspect of this appalling situation  as compared to the failure to  deal with it once it had been made clear to them ? Blaming 'political correctness' is just a way of distracting attention from major management failures, set in a context in which Social Services are underfunded to a level in which failure is almost pre-determined. I'd recommend reading those sections of the report about how some victims failed to meet the threshold for being able to access Social Services support - and that was taking place before the financial crash and subsequent austerity.


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## TopCat (Aug 26, 2014)

People can be pressured. Let the cunts who applied the pressure reap what they have sowed.


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## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...play-straight-into-racists-hands-7723400.html

Sharp article by Alibhia Brown in the Indie


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I would like to think that I'd blow the whistle too. But not everyone is so strong. Employees can be bullied, threatened and manipulated by senior managers into keeping quiet. It may not be right but it happens.
> 
> You only have to look at what happens to NHS whistleblowers to understand why some people turn a blind eye.



I wasn't singling out lower level employees. Anyone who knew about this and didn't speak out has something to answer for. That might seem black and white but these people are paid to protect.


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## jakethesnake (Aug 27, 2014)

TopCat said:


> The young women were regarded as worthless, scum from the estates, by almost everyone who knew what was going on.


This. Not just a 'race' issue or a gender issue but a class issue.


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## TopCat (Aug 27, 2014)

jakethesnake said:


> This. Not just a 'race' issue or a gender issue but a class issue.


Exactly, they loathe/hate/and are prepared to see any injustice done to us as they turn their fucking blind eye that enables their careers to continue and the payments on the house to keep coming.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

unbelievable numbers. and yes the council has behaved in an unimaginably cowardly fashion, but tbh the fact that even here all that anyone can comment on is the inaction of social services as opposed to the clear, cultural issue with sections of the Pakistani community just falls into exactly the same trap. anyone who's lived or worked anywhere near these areas can testify to the frankly barbaric attitudes which are quite widespread. non-Muslim girls are seen, quite broadly, as subhuman. there is nothing but contempt for values which don't ascribe to a strict religious orthodoxy, which in turn has no particular concern for whatever particular depravity someone might want to engage in so long as it's not turned against one of the 'in' group.

in Rochdale you had hundreds of blokes involved from across the community, respectable Mosque-goers, local businessmen, every generation. i can't imagine it's anything different here. this is different from a paedo-ring, where fuck-ups seek eachother out and make a secret syndicate - this is collaborative activity tolerated across an entire community based upon a backwards cultural dross which has no place in the 21st century.

yes this is about social services and the council and class and everything, but it is also clearly a cultural issue too and that gets ignored at everyone's peril.


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## weepiper (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> it is also clearly a cultural issue too


Yeah, like those white paedo celebrities and cabinet ministers that have been abusing children for decades. It's part of their white culture.


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## savoloysam (Aug 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I would like to think that I'd blow the whistle too. But not everyone is so strong. Employees can be bullied, threatened and manipulated by senior managers into keeping quiet. It may not be right but it happens.
> 
> You only have to look at what happens to NHS whistleblowers to understand why some people turn a blind eye.



It wouldn't stop me. I know that's easy to say from an armchair but i would gladly lose my job and turn into a paranoid curtain twitcher. Some things come from principles and knowing I could not live with myself if I knew that kind of stuff was going on under my nose and I did nothing. Fuck that.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

weepiper said:
			
		

> Yeah, like those white paedo celebrities and cabinet ministers that have been abusing children for decades. It's part of their white culture.



the comparison doesn't wash - there is no real white community but there are many Pakistani communities, in a very real sense. they exist, with established hierarchies, organisations and decision making procedures and in many of these mass grooming cases there is a large degree of complicity. if this case is anything like Rochdale (which i can't imagine it not being) it was engaged in by a large section of the entire community with the complicit knowledge of much of the rest, reinforced by a culture which regarded the victims as whores for not being born and brought up a strict Muslim.

the institutional protection which money and power brings to pervert celebrities can't be ascribed to the cultural leanings of 'whites' or anyone, rather they're just privileges which come along with the social position. by contrast, in the Rochdale and Rotheram cases the perpetrators were people who were in no way particularly powerful on a social level yet were surrounded by a general culture which protected their activities. there is not a single other cultural group in the UK where these grooming gangs crop up with such regularity or scale.


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## TopCat (Aug 27, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Yeah, like those white paedo celebrities and cabinet ministers that have been abusing children for decades. It's part of their white culture.


It was part of their class culture but not a religious or cultural one.


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## TopCat (Aug 27, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> It wouldn't stop me. I know that's easy to say from an armchair but i would gladly lose my job and turn into a paranoid curtain twitcher. Some things come from principles and knowing I could not live with myself if I knew that kind of stuff was going on under my nose and I did nothing. Fuck that.


...


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## toggle (Aug 27, 2014)

TopCat said:


> The young women were regarded as worthless, scum from the estates, by almost everyone who knew what was going on.



the victims were children. 

that they were being treated as women, as though they were making adult choices to engage in sexual activity with adult men, mature enough to make those choices was part of the problem. but they wree children, who were entitled to expect society to protect them, and not, as you say, label them as worthless scum. 

does bring up qyuestions of the labeling of females as adult or child, in ways that don't always seem linked to age. but this probably isn't the thread for that.


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## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> unbelievable numbers. and yes the council has behaved in an unimaginably cowardly fashion, but tbh the fact that even here all that anyone can comment on is the inaction of social services as opposed to the clear, cultural issue with sections of the Pakistani community just falls into exactly the same trap. anyone who's lived or worked anywhere near these areas can testify to the frankly barbaric attitudes which are quite widespread. non-Muslim girls are seen, quite broadly, as subhuman. there is nothing but contempt for values which don't ascribe to a strict religious orthodoxy, which in turn has no particular concern for whatever particular depravity someone might want to engage in so long as it's not turned against one of the 'in' group.
> 
> *in Rochdale you had hundreds of blokes involved from across the community, respectable Mosque-goers, local businessmen, every generation. i can't imagine it's anything different here. this is different from a paedo-ring, where fuck-ups seek eachother out and make a secret syndicate - this is collaborative activity tolerated across an entire community based upon a backwards cultural dross which has no place in the 21st century.*
> 
> yes this is about social services and the council and class and everything, but it is also clearly a cultural issue too and that gets ignored at everyone's peril.






Powerful and brave post DA, not sure you would have posted it a few years ago, but do you have sources for this, if that is the case then we are heading into some very difficult waters


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

it was all brought out on the Rochdale thread years ago... the testimony from the girls being abused claimed scores of different guys from the area using them nightly - and the final number who were prosecuted represented just about every male demographic of the local Pakistani community.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/may/08/rochdale-child-sex-ring-case?intcmp=239


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## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

Well, on nearly every other fora I've been on tonight, progressive types are trying to hold the line its about class or bad/weak management, they are not going down well with other posters, many who are far from racists, edl types, etc. Are they making the same mistakes that helped lead to these cases, I don't know, buts it all a mess and the repercussions haven't even begun yet.


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## TopCat (Aug 27, 2014)

The defense of multiculturalism and toleration for cunts will be on this thread in the morning.


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## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

Its probably one of the biggest issue this year but I bet it won't be on Left Unity's FB page tomorrow.


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## Combustible (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> the comparison doesn't wash - there is no real white community but there are many Pakistani communities, in a very real sense. they exist, with established hierarchies, organisations and decision making procedures and in many of these mass grooming cases there is a large degree of complicity. if this case is anything like Rochdale (which i can't imagine it not being) it was engaged in by a large section of the entire community with the complicit knowledge of much of the rest, reinforced by a culture which regarded the victims as whores for not being born and brought up a strict Muslim.



There does seem to be a reluctance to consider specific cultural issues but there seem to be some problems with this simple narrative. I've not read the report but this quote from it was posted on the other thread.



> There was too much reliance by agencies on traditional community leaders such as elected members and imams as being the primary conduit of communication with the Pakistani-heritage community. The Inquiry spoke to several Pakistani-heritage women who felt disenfranchised by this and thought it was a barrier to people coming forward to talk about CSE. Others believed there was wholesale denial of the problem in the Pakistani-heritage community in the same way that other forms of abuse were ignored. Representatives of women's groups were frustrated that interpretations of the Borough's problems with CSE were often based on an assumption that similar abuse did not take place in their own community and therefore concentrated mainly on young white girls.



Firstly it suggests that the abuse from people in the Pakistani community wasn't just focused on white girls. Also it seems a bit odd to claim that many of the failings of the council and social services were for political reasons but that denial or complicity of the community was due to cultural reasons. Especially when so much influence seems to have been yielded by 'community leaders' who are often the same people who run the council.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> anyone who's lived or worked anywhere near these areas can testify to the frankly barbaric attitudes which are quite widespread


Really ? Having lived on a Stepney council estate in which the majority of residents are Bangladeshi for 25 years (and having lived and worked in the area for much longer) this doesn't reflect my experience. I can see a lot of cultural conservatism and a lot of social attitudes I don't much care for myself. However that conservatism doesn't extend to tolerance for sexual abuse - if anything the reverse. And while misogyny underlies a lot of attitudes and behaviours the only differences with attitudes and behaviours in white communities are differences of form not content. 

Of course my experience might be untypical - but when you go on to say


Das Uberdog said:


> there is no real white community


it's fairly obvious that you're simply talking bollocks.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 27, 2014)

lets not foget that SYP are knee deep here= they treated the children 'with contempt' and senior officers refused to believe the data. I'd go so far as to say they were enjoying the fruits of such rings. The failures here are manifold and heartbreaking but where the ultimate power to act decisively rested was in the hands of our brave lawmen and they spat upon the victims. Rotten to the core


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## gabi (Aug 27, 2014)

Public sector workers in 'couldn't give a flying fuck about doing my job, as long I collect my massively inflated pension' shock.

I've had the misfortune of working for a similar organization, in my dark days. The level of contempt for the people it was supposed to be looking after was mind boggling.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 27, 2014)

the report specifically lays the blame on the inaction of police and senior management not acting on the concerns of the lower level workers, but still don't let that get in the way of your pig ignorant shit eh

inflated pension, you twat


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## marty21 (Aug 27, 2014)

gabi said:


> Public sector workers in 'couldn't give a flying fuck about doing my job, as long I collect my massively inflated pension' shock.
> 
> I've had the misfortune of working for a similar organization, in my dark days. The level of contempt for the people it was supposed to be looking after was mind boggling.


Fuck off gabi


----------



## felixthecat (Aug 27, 2014)

gabi said:


> Public sector workers in 'couldn't give a flying fuck about doing my job, as long I collect my massively inflated pension' shock.


 
Do you get your information from the Daily Mail?

If someone could direct me to my massively inflated pension I'd be thrilled. All I can find is one which means I'd still have to work to supplement it to an amount I could live on.


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## William of Walworth (Aug 27, 2014)

felixthecat said:


> *Do you get your information from the Daily Mail?*
> 
> If someone could direct me to my massively inflated pension I'd be thrilled. All I can find is one which means I'd still have to work to supplement it to an amount I could live on.



He's smarter than that in reality, but he's just a wind-up-merchant. He's been trolling like that on here for years. Lazy trolling at that. Do you enjoy recycling cliches so bone-idly, gabi?


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 27, 2014)

I had already posted on this story on the other thread and as a Rotherham lad am sick to my stomach at this appalling dismissal of the children's accusations.
But once again it is SYP at the centre of it.
Just announced on radio Sheffield that Shaun Wright the PCC is expected to resign over his involvement and a senior police officer said 'this is not an historical enquiry, there are currently over 170 cases being looked at currently.'
Disgraceful.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 27, 2014)

It's going to take a while for me to process all of this horrendous shit, and the implications fill me with foreboding.

There are ways that children's social care was structured (in Rotherham and everywhere else in the UK) that allowed this stuff to be downplayed. I'd love to find out how senior child protection officers downplayed the risks to individual children that appeared on their radar, as well as for the issue as a whole. 

It would also be interesting to examine how the police assessment of risk/harm failed and whether anything of intelligence value was passed to social care, whether Education Welfare in the local authority had flagged concerns (and what action was taken), whether front-line social workers or police were part of this complacency or whether their reports downgraded the risks involved.

This "not wanting to be viewed as racist" shtick may have been a factor in some people's minds along the way, but doesn't explain the systemic failures. Transparency and accountability tends to sharpen up responses. Police "Merlins" and other reports should be scrutinised by social workers; social care disclosures should be scrutinised by the police. I note that many of the reforms Rotherham have made have in the last couple of years are in fact national reforms directed by individual Local Children's Safeguarding Boards across the country.

If anyone ever says that assumptions about race, class and gender are not a serious threat to us, just point them to this case. I think this scares me the most. Hundreds of people, from coppers and social workers to councillors and community leaders all refusing to see what was happening to children in their community in front of their eyes.


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2014)

Bangladesh isnt pakistan something seriously rotten in rotherham if loads of local men thought raping "white slags" acceptable behaviour 

*Consensual sex*

In one of the most staggering passages in the report, Professor Jay revealed how a police officer dismissed the case of a 12-year-old girl who had been having sex with up to five Asian males, because he said she had been “100 per cent consensual in every incident”.
What the fuck!

South yorkshire police need to be fucking gutted along with every other agency.

This was a race and class issue.
 Poor white girls targeted by pakistani men with fucked up ideas and authorties not doing anything because it was chavs and trying to avoid being called racist


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

Shaun Wright is clearly under intense pressure to go :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28947707
http://www.gainsboroughstandard.co....-facing-mounting-pressure-to-resign-1-6806833
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ls-child-safeguarding-department-9692749.html

Someone's even added the fact he has been called on to go to his wikipedia page


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## eatmorecheese (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> In one of the most staggering passages in the report, Professor Jay revealed how a police officer dismissed the case of a 12-year-old girl who had been having sex with up to five Asian males, because he said she had been “100 per cent consensual in every incident”.
> What the fuck!



Makes me want to weep. How can child protection just be about social workers? It involves everyone. How the fuck can any adult, in this day and age, sleep soundly after making such a judgement?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 27, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> Makes me want to weep. How can child protection just be about social workers? It involves everyone. How the fuck can any adult, in this day and age, sleep soundly after making such a judgement?





> ....Professor Jay revealed how a *police officer* dismissed the case of a 12-year-old girl....


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## eatmorecheese (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes, that's what I mean. Makes me angry.


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## The39thStep (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Bangladesh isnt pakistan something seriously rotten in rotherham if loads of local men thought raping "white slags" acceptable behaviour
> 
> *Consensual sex*
> 
> ...



The last line has a lot going for it tbh


----------



## Sweet FA (Aug 27, 2014)

.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Bangladesh isnt pakistan


If that's a response to my post above I'm perfectly well aware of that - but they're not that different despite the fact they often don't get on with one another.


likesfish said:


> something seriously rotten in rotherham if loads of local men thought raping "white slags" acceptable behaviour
> (...)
> Poor white girls targeted by pakistani men with fucked up ideas


Absolutely but I think you'll find a majority of the Pakistani community would also agree they are scum. Suggesting that there is something especially misogynistic about Pakistani culture which promotes this is just offering these cunts an excuse. In fact it's simply the other side of the coin to refusing to address their behaviour out of concerns for 'racial sensitivity'.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

...do we assume that whatever the failings of the police and other authorities in this case were also repeated in Derby, Rochdale, Oxford, Peterborough and High Wycombe.....?

....IOW this is not localised, isolated or attributable to some unfortunate rotten apples...?

...and that we do have, what I believe people in Houston refer to as "...a problem..." with certain communities and the way the organs of the state are interfacing with them to revert to the comforting bureaucratic mogadon-speak with which all responsible parties seek to fire-blanket these issues...? 

( ....and I do hope they spare us the "lessons have been learned" mantra on this one....)


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 27, 2014)

Child rapists and abusers are criminals no matter their ethnic origin, class, or career and this country is so fucked up that the most vulnerable have been abandoned for years and left to suffer.
The political elite will try and make this a not our fault it was the other lots issue.
We are all responsible because we put up with it and chunter to each other on threads and at work yet do not show the sheer anger we are all feeling because we are placated again and again.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 27, 2014)

No I'm sorry part of this is due to a fucked up notion of honour and treating women like shit as long as they are not your "sister", you get the same attiude with a lot of communitys/groups etc just not so extreme.
 Add a diffrence in race and they are the perfect other to be used without a care

i suggest rotherham gets twinned with delhi rape capital of india might make the  cunts who thought this was ok buck their fucking ideas up wont be popular with a pakistani community


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## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

This is about patriarchy, not about ethnicity or culture.

I notice the S*n's front page screams "I,400 victims of the PC brigade". Yes, the police were involved by turning a blind eye.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

It's funny how the ethnicity of Savile, Hall, Clifford et al was never once mentioned. It's also interesting how the far-right seek to claim that certain cultures are more inclined to pederasty/child sex abuse than others when they, themselves, have had plenty of members convicted of a variety of offences. Yet, no mention of their ethnicity.

An outsider to this county would be forgiven for concluding that pederasty/paedophilia is a national pastime.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> No I'm sorry part of this is due to a fucked up notion of honour and treating women like shit as long as they are not your "sister", you get the same attiude with a lot of communitys/groups etc just not so extreme.
> Add a diffrence in race and they are the perfect other to be used without a care
> 
> i suggest rotherham gets twinned with delhi rape capital of india might make the  cunts who thought this was ok buck their fucking ideas up wont be popular with a pakistani community


And Jimmy Savile? Did his Catholicism and ethnicity play its part in his grooming and raping of children? What about Peter Morrison? How about Sidney Cooke, who was at the head of a massive grooming gang? This is about male power; patriarchy, if you will.


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## Sprocket. (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> It's funny how the ethnicity of Savile, Hall, Clifford et al was never once mentioned. It's also interesting how the far-right seek to claim that certain cultures are more inclined to pederasty/child sex abuse than others when they, themselves, have had plenty of members convicted of a variety of offences. Yet, no mention of their ethnicity.
> 
> An outsider to this county would be forgiven for concluding that pederasty/paedophilia is a national pastime.



It was not that long ago that Belgium was in the unenviable spotlight for paedophile crimes and that caused major protests at their seat of parliament.
Are we to go down this route? They will probably dowse us with the recently acquired water cannon!

There are some days when I just think that expected asteroid collision with this planet is long overdue.


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2014)

And pakistani culture is extremly patriachal

Savillie and the yewtree were celebrities  access to kids through fame and some power through being famous
 Cooke was a fairground worker access to kids and transient.

Rotherham race was part of the reason the scumbags got away with it


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## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

...Jimmy Savile's catholocism may not be germane to his individual case but if we are discussing the repeated examples across time and geography of instances of child-abuse by Catholic priests then in actual fact, yes it would be rather..._obtuse_...not to take on board the specifically catholic nature of their environment, their beliefs and attitudes and the motives underlying the behaviour of those who tolerated and turned a blind eye to their activities...


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## Smokeandsteam (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> And Jimmy Savile? Did his Catholicism and ethnicity play its part in his grooming and raping of children? What about Peter Morrison? How about Sidney Cooke, who was at the head of a massive grooming gang? This is about male power; patriarchy, if you will.


 
Yes, it is absolutely about male power and patriarchy - but it's also about class and yes about race too.

To ignore this, to try to dissemble, to try to deflect it as purely a failing by the 'authorities', to deny the facts here and in Rochdale and elsewhere just leaves the field open for UKIP and others to exploit - and judging by their current levels of support in Rotherham they won't be slow in taking the opportunity.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 27, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...Jimmy Savile's catholocism may not be germane to his individual case but if we are discussing the repeated examples across time and geography of instances of child-abuse by Catholic priests then in actual fact, yes it would be rather..._obtuse_...not to take on board the specifically catholic nature of their environment, their beliefs and attitudes and the motives underlying the behaviour of those who tolerated and turned a blind eye to their activities...


 
Exactly.


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> It's funny how the ethnicity of Savile, Hall, Clifford et al was never once mentioned. It's also interesting how the far-right seek to *claim that certain cultures are more inclined to pederasty/child sex abuse than others* when they, themselves, have had plenty of members convicted of a variety of offences. Yet, no mention of their ethnicity.
> 
> An outsider to this county would be forgiven for concluding that pederasty/paedophilia is a national pastime.



You'd better check out Bacha Bazi


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, it is absolutely about male power and patriarchy - but it's also about class and yes about race too.
> 
> To ignore this, to try to dissemble, to try to deflect it as purely a failing by the 'authorities', to deny the facts here and in Rochdale and elsewhere just leaves the field open for UKIP and others to exploit - and judging by their current levels of support in Rotherham they won't be slow in taking the opportunity.


"Race" is a social construction. When people use the word "race", they're referring to culture.

What makes you think that UKIP, the BNP, Britain First et al aren't already using "race" as an issue? Interestingly, the BNP also has issues regarding paedophilia.

The BNP's hypocrisy over paedophilia.
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/insider/bnp-hypocrisy-over-paedophile-2048


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## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> And pakistani culture is extremly patriachal
> 
> Savillie and the yewtree were celebrities  access to kids through fame and some power through being famous
> Cooke was a fairground worker access to kids and transient.
> ...


And our culture (whatever that is) isn't extremely patriarchal? Come on...


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> If that's a response to my post above I'm perfectly well aware of that - but they're not that different despite the fact they often don't get on with one another.
> 
> Absolutely but I think you'll find a majority of the Pakistani community would also agree they are scum. Suggesting that there is something especially misogynistic about Pakistani culture which promotes this is just offering these cunts an excuse. In fact it's simply the other side of the coin to refusing to address their behaviour out of concerns for 'racial sensitivity'.



the vast bulk of these kind of grooming gangs are Pakistani though; not Bangladeshi, not Somalian, not Hindu, not Arab, not Persian. and despite the fact that most members of the community may not explicitly support such circuits the severe attitudes towards those who fall into their category of 'prostitute'are really quite widespread. it's not a thousand miles away from the attitudes that are pretty well established across North West Pakistani communities (where i'm from and only direct experience is based) to tolerating or apologizing for the kind of behaviour shown in these groups.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> And our culture (whatever that is) isn't extremely patriarchal? Come on...


different scale. you can't possibly compare the two it's just totally different leagues.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> And our culture (whatever that is) isn't extremely patriarchal? Come on...



Two cultural manifestations of patriarchy, masked with class/race/culture assumptions equals child protection clusterfuck.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> different scale. you can't possibly compare the two it's just totally different leagues.


What does scale have to do with anything? You're engaging in cultural relativism.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> Two cultural manifestations of patriarchy, masked with class/race/culture assumptions equals child protection clusterfuck.


Quite. Same shit, different package.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...Jimmy Savile's catholocism may not be germane to his individual case but if we are discussing the repeated examples across time and geography of instances of child-abuse by Catholic priests then in actual fact, yes it would be rather..._obtuse_...not to take on board the specifically catholic nature of their environment, their beliefs and attitudes and the motives underlying the behaviour of those who tolerated and turned a blind eye to their activities...



absolutely - and the thing is everyone _did_ quite rightly treat that as problem of institutional abuse within the Catholic Church, particular to the customs and norms of those institutions.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

And Sidney Cooke and his gang?


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> What does scale have to do with anything? You're engaging in cultural relativism.


no, YOU'RE engaging in cultural relativism. the 'patriarchy' of modern British society is in no way comparable to the patriarchy in many British Pakistani communities. different planets.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, YOU'RE engaging in cultural relativism. the 'patriarchy' of modern British society is in no way comparable to the patriarchy in many British Pakistani communities. different planets.


Bullshit. What do you mean by "modern British society"? That phrase is indicative of cultural relativism. What is modernity ffs? Do you know?


----------



## cesare (Aug 27, 2014)

A British Pakistani community is part of "modern British society" surely.


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## eatmorecheese (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, YOU'RE engaging in cultural relativism. the 'patriarchy' of modern British society is in no way comparable to the patriarchy in many British Pakistani communities. different planets.



Patriarchy has been challenged to a greater extent in Europe, granted. But how do we explain a police officer thinking that a 12 year old sleeping with five men "consented" to the arrangement and therefore took no further action? The law is clear in this case. How do we explain this?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> "
> What makes you think that UKIP, the BNP, Britain First et al aren't already using "race" as an issue? Interestingly, the BNP also has issues regarding paedophilia.


 
Err, I don't think UKIP, the BNP, Britain First et al a using race as an issue will come as a surprise to many people.

The point I was making is that the impulse of the left will be to do the opposite and pretend that there isn't a race element thereby placing themselves on the wrong side of the debate (as usual) and leaving the field clear for others who already clearly have traction in the area (also as usual).


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte 

you have clearly had no experience with British Pakistani communities if you think there is any conceivable way you can compare these things. sorry but what you're arguing is total sophistry and absolutely cultural relativism. many women and girls in these communities have their entire lives monitored and controlled to an extent which would quite commonly be seen as serious abuse in most of post-60s non-Pakistani Britain. the entire community is usually run by a blokes syndicate at the Mosque, which protects itself, mediates family disputes and helps protect the honour of 'respected' guys who may be falling into disrepute. in most North West Pakistani Mosques, women still aren't even allowed to enter - allowed no-where near where their marriages are being arranged, businesses being attended to or grievances heard by local leaders. honour killings are a very real phenomenon... the organised scale and comprehensiveness of this patriarchy simply doesn't compare to the cultural residues of patriarchy amidst at least formal legal equality elsewhere.


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2014)

This went on for 16 years it was all the offenders were of  pakistani origin
 If the gang had been all members of the same regiment or all  mps people would be asking similar questions 

Sidney cooke and his gang were not really identifable


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 27, 2014)

Race does play another factor in paedophilia. According to a documentary I watched about runaway boys being victims of paedophiles in Houston TX, all the paedophiles, regardless of Race or ethnic group, prefer White blond blue eyed boys.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 27, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> Race does play another factor in paedophilia. According to a documentary I watched about runaway boys being victims of paedophiles in Houston TX, all the paedophiles, regardless of Race or ethnic group, prefer White blond blue eyed boys.



Please don't do this.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

...you can call it patriarchy, culture, race or flipping Geronimo for all I care....I call it pure unadulterated cold calculating evil....


----------



## toggle (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> And our culture (whatever that is) isn't extremely patriarchal? Come on...



on some things we're a lot better, on some things, ti's the same shit with a different label



eatmorecheese said:


> Patriarchy has been challenged to a greater extent in Europe, granted. But how do we explain a police officer thinking that a 12 year old sleeping with five men "consented" to the arrangement and therefore took no further action? The law is clear in this case. How do we explain this?



i'ts patriarchy, but mixed with class based attitudes that have been about for hundreds of years. 

what we think of as the forms of patriarchy that women have been fighting against for generations developed in the 18th/19th centuries to protect white middle class women, starting off protecting them when they went overseas, from the supposedly hypersexualised black men. parts of this being brought back to protect from the underclass at home. 

because the justifications for allowing this to go on, that the w/c girls were up for it, assumptions of adult sexual behavior, look a lot like justifications for abusing underclass women that have been about since men in the colonies were raping enslaved women. and underneath it all, a seperation of 'girls like that', from 'girls like my daughter' and an attitude that it it necessary to allow an outlet for male sexual expression, so better it's girls that don't matter than 'my precious princess'.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> This was a race and class issue.  Poor white girls targeted by pakistani men with fucked up ideas and authorties not doing anything because it was chavs and trying to avoid being called racist



Yup.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

Global Stoner said:


> I don't know the specifics of the case, so will stop commenting after this, but young people are normally placed further away from home, to make them less vulnerable, normally when there is a risk to them in their local areas.



Or, as was the case for some of the abused girls in Rochdale, they were placed in Rochdale because it was cgeaper for their councils to do so, than to place them closer to home.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

poptyping said:


> The "we didn't want to appear racist" thing is such a fucking cop out. It makes me sick.



I'm also not sure it isn't being used as a screen for something even less savoury - not racism, but just plain old-fashioned municipal politics, and the mathematics of retaining constituencies.


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## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

> Race does play another factor in paedophilia. According to a documentary I watched about runaway boys being victims of paedophiles in Houston TX, all the paedophiles, regardless of Race or ethnic group, prefer White blond blue eyed boys.


 


eatmorecheese said:


> Please don't do this.


 
...the kids being abused by paedos on club 8-13 trips to Thailand and Morocco may beg to differ.

...however there may be something to it....there's supposedley a well established human trafficking pipeline from Russia / Eastern europe in caucasian children for abuse alongside the more public girls trafficked into brothels scenario...


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 27, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...the kids being abused by paedos on club 8-13 trips to Thailand and Morocco may beg to differ.
> 
> ...however there may be something to it....there's supposedley a well established human trafficking pipeline from Russia / Eastern europe in caucasian children for abuse alongside the more public girls trafficked into brothels scenario...


Well, that's what it said in the documentary. I have been unable to find it, but it was Youtube was made in around 1980-something and was about runaway boys being abused in Houston TX.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 27, 2014)

i don't believe that anyone, when faced with a dossier of evidence about this, decided not to do anything because they were scared of being called racists.  nonsense.  if they did nothing, it was because it was too difficult, they didn't care enough, or they were nobbled.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I'd rather be, falsely, called a racist and speak out than allow this fucking awful shit to continue happen to young vulnerable girls. That people may have known about this and put themselves,  their reputation and career first fucking sickness me. Anyone who knew about this and did nothing us complicit. Fuck them.



The problem for such low-level employees usually being that if you use the standard complaints system, all that happens is that your complaint gets suppressed, and if you step outside of your employers' mandated procedures (i.e. going to the press), you get sacked because you've committed a "gross misconduct" offence.  I'm willing to bet that a significant minority of non-disclosures were/are rooted in that dilemma, especially as the much-vaunted "whistleblower's charter" isn't worth the candle, as far as protecting employees is concerned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> A British Pakistani community is part of "modern British society" surely.


only most of the time apparently


----------



## teqniq (Aug 27, 2014)

Shaun Wright is still refusing to resign, tbh why don't they just sack the guy?



> ...Speaking publicly for first time since the report was published, Wright insisted that he acted properly, and rejected calls for him to go.
> 
> "The scale of the problem has come as a surprise to me," he told the BBC. He said he was not aware of the "industrial scale" of the abuse. Wright said he took collective responsibility for what happened but added he had no plans to step down...



http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-child-abuse-police-commissioner-urged-resign


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## dessiato (Aug 27, 2014)

This case should be beyond belief. It is a very sad thing that it isn't. The victims...I can't imagine what they have and are suffering due to their treatment by all involved, the perpetrators, the people who are supposed to have protected them. People involved in the crimes and the cover up should be hung out to dry over this.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

teqniq said:


> Shaun Wright is still refusing to resign, tbh why don't they just sack the guy?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-child-abuse-police-commissioner-urged-resign


who is 'they'?


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## teqniq (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> who is 'they'?


Good point. I suppose it would be like turkeys voting for Chritsmas.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

TopCat said:


> The young women were regarded as worthless, scum from the estates, by almost everyone who knew what was going on.



Someone I'm acquainted with from another board, who's from Donny, reckons this sort of contempt for the working class is endemic in South Yorkshire, and he reckons it's due to the embedded nature of local politics and one-party dominance: The fact that councillors and council offers don't *have* to give a fuck about the working class, because voting is still pretty much tribal - people will vote Labour come Hell or high water.  Why bother with people when you've got their vote stitched up?  It's a decent-ish theory, because it seems to be transferable to anywhere that has seen historic single-party dominance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

teqniq said:


> Good point. I suppose it would be like turkeys voting for Chritsmas.


unless you know better I don't believe there is an authority which can sack, impeach or otherwise discipline a police commissioner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Someone I'm acquainted with from another board, who's from Donny, reckons this sort of contempt for the working class is endemic in South Yorkshire, and he reckons it's due to the embedded nature of local politics and one-party dominance: The fact that councillors and council offers don't *have* to give a fuck about the working class, because voting is still pretty much tribal - people will vote Labour come Hell or high water.  Why bother with people when you've got their vote stitched up?  It's a decent-ish theory, because it seems to be transferable to anywhere that has seen historic single-party dominance.


given hell's just arrived, and high water can't be far behind, it will be interesting to see how the labour party deal with this.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

It's always seemed to me that the socially conservative attitudes and prejudices amongst some of my (asian) neighbours are remarkably similar to the attitudes among my (white) grandparents generation. Concerns with family honour and shame are pretty much identical to my grandparents generations deeply held concerns about family respectability. Being 'not respectable' could have a material impact on the opportunities open to you. My maternal grandfather was a bigamist - my grandmothers marriage status and my mothers illegitimacy were family secrets so deep they weren't even discussed until after both grandparents were dead but that secrecy itself had a very material impact on our family life.

However - exactly like my neighbours - most people in my grandparents generation didn't act on their prejudices in extreme ways. My grandmother didn't like the idea of homosexuality (not despite but perhaps because at least one of her brothers was gay - another family secret) but she was entirely accepting when one of my siblings came out. My mother wasn't happy when one of my sisters got pregnant and decided not to marry the father but she accepted it - she gave my sister a very hard time (in my opinion to a damaging extent) but no more than she'd been doing ever since she was born and not about the pregnancy. Other families of my grandparents generation treated  their 'black sheep' very differently of course but only a small minority took it to violent extremes and while other members of the community might 'understand' what they did they didn't condone it. Most people with racist, misogynistic and homophobic prejudices pick them up from the culture around them but they don't act on them. In fact many of them can happily combine talking bollocks about abstract groups 'out there' with friendly relations with actual members of those groups.

It's like suggesting that the Shankill Butchers were expressing something essential about Protestant culture in Northern Ireland. That culture isn't irrelevant to their actions, and the way the Protestant community was structured (and structured itself) wasn't irrelevant to how they acted. But the fundamental problem wasn't Protestant culture it was the fact they were murdering cunts. Losing sight of that is, in my opinion, just another way of avoiding the issue. Misogynistic prejudices are a real problem. The sexual abuse of children is a real problem. But they are not identical problems and you can't deal with the latter by focussing on the former (any more than you can deal with sexual abuse by campaigning about pornography). Indeed it can be an excellent way of deliberately not addressing the 'difficult' aspects of the real problem.


----------



## teqniq (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> unless you know better I don't believe there is an authority which can sack, impeach or otherwise discipline a police commissioner.


Haha no, I don't and now you come to mention it I think someone already pointed this out upthread. Well he should resign but evidently he has no shame.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> unbelievable numbers. and yes the council has behaved in an unimaginably cowardly fashion, but tbh the fact that even here all that anyone can comment on is the inaction of social services as opposed to the clear, cultural issue with sections of the Pakistani community just falls into exactly the same trap. anyone who's lived or worked anywhere near these areas can testify to the frankly barbaric attitudes which are quite widespread. non-Muslim girls are seen, quite broadly, as subhuman. there is nothing but contempt for values which don't ascribe to a strict religious orthodoxy, which in turn has no particular concern for whatever particular depravity someone might want to engage in so long as it's not turned against one of the 'in' group.
> 
> in Rochdale you had hundreds of blokes involved from across the community, respectable Mosque-goers, local businessmen, every generation. i can't imagine it's anything different here. this is different from a paedo-ring, where fuck-ups seek eachother out and make a secret syndicate - this is collaborative activity tolerated across an entire community based upon a backwards cultural dross which has no place in the 21st century.
> 
> yes this is about social services and the council and class and everything, but it is also clearly a cultural issue too and that gets ignored at everyone's peril.



Nope, it's more that it's an issue that's easily *attributable* to cultural causes, which is an easier thing to do than examining why a majority of Pakistani men feel NO need to rape under-age non-Pakistani females.  It's more convenient than examining why the minority of Pakistanis who become rapists of this sort were able to do so, and with impunity.
Yes, the fact that the perpetrators were Pakistani/of the local Pakistani community may have informed official thinking with regard to doing *anything at all* about the abuse, but the abusers didn't abuse *because* of their culture - they abused because they were able to: Because they were and are anti-social criminals who found an outlet for their paedophilic perversions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

weepiper said:


> Yeah, like those white paedo celebrities and cabinet ministers that have been abusing children for decades. It's part of their white culture.



Fucking honky rape-o scum!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

gabi said:


> Public sector workers in 'couldn't give a flying fuck about doing my job, as long I collect my massively inflated pension' shock.
> 
> I've had the misfortune of working for a similar organization, in my dark days. The level of contempt for the people it was supposed to be looking after was mind boggling.



Go eat shit, you antipodean dog-fucker.


----------



## krink (Aug 27, 2014)

I stayed up for hours last night reading that report. It's disgraceful how many people are framing the story as the fault of the "pc" brigade when that idea (fear of being called racist) seems to be a very minor part of the story. The discussion should be about the victims and how they were treated by their abusers but also people who were meant to protect them (the cops, the council, the state, the families and the wider community) so something can be done. But, having read the report, nothing will be done. They've been through the inspections and reports and inquiries time and time again and nothing changed. It's still happening now. If you haven't read the report, then you shouldn't really expect your views to be taken seriously.

The saddest part is it is still happening. Nobody is coming to the rescue. It's a fucking sick society we live in.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2014)

treelover said:


> 'update, my friend, a long time foster mother, was banned by the council there when she raised these issues, it was described as 'cultural', she is going ballistic now and thinking of going public.'



So dismissing systematic child abuse as 'cultural' is what people do when they don't want to appear racist? 
Sounds pretty racist to me.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 27, 2014)

Wasn't the "racism" or otherwise of the claims that groups of (mostly) Pakistani men were systematically grooming and abusing white girls a main issue in the split of UAF from Searchlight, with the latter wanting to acknowledge there was a reality to the claims and the former arguing that was making concessions to fascist myths?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> It's going to take a while for me to process all of this horrendous shit, and the implications fill me with foreboding.
> 
> There are ways that children's social care was structured (in Rotherham and everywhere else in the UK) that allowed this stuff to be downplayed. I'd love to find out how senior child protection officers downplayed the risks to individual children that appeared on their radar, as well as for the issue as a whole.
> 
> ...



What frightens the fuck out of me is that so many systems that should have kicked in, failed. Case conferences alone are supposed to feature input from (at the very least) the police and social services, so the possibility of deliberate complicity is writ pretty fucking large.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

articul8 said:


> Wasn't the "racism" or otherwise of the claims that groups of (mostly) Pakistani men were systematically grooming and abusing white girls a main issue in the split of UAF from Searchlight, with the latter wanting to acknowledge there was a reality to the claims and the former arguing that was making concessions to fascist myths?


i would have thought you'd be keeping your head down given your foul party is up to its neck in this


----------



## cesare (Aug 27, 2014)

teqniq said:


> Shaun Wright is still refusing to resign, tbh why don't they just sack the guy?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-child-abuse-police-commissioner-urged-resign


"They" might have learned something from the Sharon Shoosmith fiasco.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> "They" might have learned something from the Sharon Shoosmith fiasco.


apart from which shoesmith was a council employee whereas a police commissioner is an elected position and it's a short step from sacking a police commissioner to sacking an mp


----------



## cesare (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> apart from which shoesmith was a council employee whereas a police commissioner is an elected position and it's a short step from sacking a police commissioner to sacking an mp


Indeed.


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

gabi said:


> Public sector workers in 'couldn't give a flying fuck about doing my job, as long I collect my massively inflated pension' shock.
> 
> I've had the misfortune of working for a similar organization, in my dark days. The level of contempt for the people it was supposed to be looking after was mind boggling.



There is evidence that social workers for instance actually use their own money to help out their clients, you are wrong in most cases.


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> I had already posted on this story on the other thread and as a Rotherham lad am sick to my stomach at this appalling dismissal of the children's accusations.
> But once again it is SYP at the centre of it.
> Just announced on radio Sheffield that Shaun Wright the PCC is expected to resign over his involvement and a senior police officer said 'this is not an historical enquiry, there are currently over 170 cases being looked at currently.'
> Disgraceful.



I suspect this will be in Sheffield and with other communities


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Someone I'm acquainted with from another board, who's from Donny, reckons this sort of contempt for the working class is endemic in South Yorkshire, and he reckons it's due to the embedded nature of local politics and one-party dominance: The fact that councillors and council offers don't *have* to give a fuck about the working class, because voting is still pretty much tribal - people will vote Labour come Hell or high water.


 
.....do we read this across to the other areas where this happened aswell....Rochdale...well very possibly....Derby....OK....Peterborough....( wobbles hand horizontally )....Oxford...!?...High Wycombe..ffs....

I'm not sure we even *have* a word to describe the total collapse in responsibility exhibited by these authorities ...whatever "it" is its a twisted knot of something that's bigger and more complicated than _just_ "...PC gone mad..." grown unchecked for a long time and metastasized and seems to generate frightening resistance to any medical intervention...


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> And Jimmy Savile? Did his Catholicism and ethnicity play its part in his grooming and raping of children? What about Peter Morrison? How about Sidney Cooke, who was at the head of a massive grooming gang? This is about male power; patriarchy, if you will.



Reports are saying the girls were 'passed around' to hundreds of nominally respectable men, it does seem to go deep


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

treelover said:


> I suspect this will be in Sheffield and with other communities


It'll be _everywhere_ with lost kids and a state that treats them as 'the scum off the estates' and where that sort of characterisation of ever wider groups of people (including the non-lost)is accepted as part of mainstream debate and culture (and yes, that means in the left as well, and on here):


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> the vast bulk of these kind of grooming gangs are Pakistani though; not Bangladeshi, not Somalian, not Hindu, not Arab, not Persian. and despite the fact that most members of the community may not explicitly support such circuits the severe attitudes towards those who fall into their category of 'prostitute'are really quite widespread. it's not a thousand miles away from the attitudes that are pretty well established across North West Pakistani communities (where i'm from and only direct experience is based) to tolerating or apologizing for the kind of behaviour shown in these groups.



So if such attitudes are so prevalent, why aren't there hundreds of thousands of Pakistani rapists? 
Perhaps it's because "culture" is an excuse, rather than a reason for such behaviour?


----------



## savoloysam (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Bangladesh isnt pakistan something seriously rotten in rotherham if loads of local men thought raping "white slags" acceptable behaviour
> 
> *Consensual sex*
> 
> ...



12 year olds by law can't give consent and if they do it verbally an adult by law can't act on it. It's rape however they try to dress it up.


----------



## krtek a houby (Aug 27, 2014)

el-ahrairah said:


> thats because the comments section will be filled up with a)racists, and b) libel.



You're goddam right. But it's all over the shop regarding this horrific story. From another site:

_The blame for this cover up lies firmly and solely with the left wing PC offended for everyone brigade. They should be tried along with the perpetrators. People like me have been saying things like this have been going on for years but were silenced by people more interested in trying to prove their own opinions and views were right. 

Disgusting people._


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> .....do we read this across to the other areas where this happened aswell....Rochdale...well very possibly....Derby....OK....Peterborough....( wobbles hand horizontally )....Oxford...!?...High Wycombe..ffs....



What part of "single party dominance" are you having a problem with?  In any situation of hegemony there's always going to be spaces where such attitudes as displayed in Rotherham become quasi-institutionalised.



> I'm not sure we even *have* a word to describe the total collapse in responsibility exhibited by these authorities ...whatever "it" is its a twisted knot of something that's bigger and more complicated than _just_ "...PC gone mad..." grown unchecked for a long time and metastasized and seems to generate frightening resistance to any medical intervention...



It's *nothing* to do with "PC gone mad".  The failure within local authorities is everything to do with the desire for power and its trappings, without any of the concomitant responsibility, and the failure of the police in South Yorkshire is far more to do with an institutionalised culture of contempt for those who are to be policed, than it is to do with political correctness, understaffing or any of the other excuses that will be trotted out.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> So if such attitudes are so prevalent, why aren't there hundreds of thousands of Pakistani rapists?
> Perhaps it's because "culture" is an excuse, rather than a reason for such behaviour?


 

...so...ergo...because not all people in poverty commit crime there is no correlation between poverty and crime...


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...so...ergo...because not all people in poverty commit crime there is no correlation between poverty and crime...


what sort of  crime have you in mind? internet fraud? the long firm scam? hunting foxes with dogs? trespassing on the railway?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> So if such attitudes are so prevalent, why aren't there hundreds of thousands of Pakistani rapists?
> Perhaps it's because "culture" is an excuse, rather than a reason for such behaviour?



can't it be both? i don't think an individual is an island, even if they are still an individual. culture can impact predisposition. not everyone will respond in the same way but if the general culture presses a certain way then in general it will result in more of certain incidences.

in this case, the pattern is that these communal grooming gangs, as they exist in the UK, appear to be overwhelmingly Pakistani as opposed to being from any other cultural group - particularly when taking into account what a tiny minority of the overrall population Pakistanis constitute. there are barbaric and totally backwards attitudes towards women in general and in particular non-Muslim girls which run rife throughout many Pakistani communities in the North West. not only this, but as i've said before, if the testimony of the abused girls in the Rochdale case is anything to go by they were being used by huge numbers of men... a large scale operation which must have been tolerated by much larger circles of people than those actively involved. one of the most disturbing thing about the Rochdale allegations for me was that i remembered, years before, batting off accusations of exactly these crimes against Pakistani communities from locals in Blackburn, Bolton, Burnley and a whole bunch of places as racist myths. these crimes have been open secrets in these areas for years and they're only now being uncovered.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2014)

gabi said:


> Public sector workers in 'couldn't give a flying fuck about doing my job, as long I collect my massively inflated pension' shock.
> 
> I've had the misfortune of working for a similar organization, in my dark days. The level of contempt for the people it was supposed to be looking after was mind boggling.



Nice use of the right-wing trope about 'massively inflated pensions' there. Subtle. If only you hadn't left out the implied third paragraph, the one about how the whole idea of a public sector is flawed and we should let murdering incompetents like G4S run everything instead, you'd basically have a daily mail leading article.

I get the same feedback from just about everyone I know in healthcare, social work and other caring professions; the amount of political meddling and terrible management practices they have to endure is making it nearly impossible for them to do their jobs properly. That and staffing cuts have increased everyone's workload and destroyed the morale of everyone who has survived them. 

Social services is the eternal scapegoat, only ever spoken of when something terrible happens and never given any credit for the thousands of times they successfully prevent similar occurrences. Politicians, if they're not trying to make themselves look busy by tampering with services they don't remotely understand, are deliberately hampering those services in order to create a justification for privatising them or getting rid of them altogether.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

treelover said:


> Reports are saying the girls were 'passed around' to hundreds of nominally respectable men, it does seem to go deep



Rape, primarily, is about asserting power, but the dynamic also includes, for many rapists, opportunism rather than planning. I suspect that some of those hundreds were opportunists, and even that a subset of them were (or at least felt that they were) propelled into participation through peer pressure.  Make no mistake though - they're still rapists.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what sort of  crime have you in mind? internet fraud? the long firm scam? hunting foxes with dogs? trespassing on the railway?


 
...well this sort apparently...Mr Crowley...

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/23/rise-female-shoplifters-benefit-cuts-police


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 27, 2014)

Yvette Cooper calling for Shaun Wright to step down later this afternoon.
Labour will be shitting bricks.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> What part of "single party dominance" are you having a problem with?


 
...no problem at all...if sweeping unevidenced generalisations are the order of the day I may even have a go myself later on...


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> can't it be both? i don't think an individual is an island, even if they are still an individual. culture can impact predisposition. not everyone will respond in the same way but if the general culture presses a certain way then in general it will result in more of certain incidences.
> 
> in this case, the pattern is that these communal grooming gangs, as they exist in the UK, appear to be overwhelmingly Pakistani as opposed to being from any other cultural group - particularly when taking into account what a tiny minority of the overrall population Pakistanis constitute. there are barbaric and totally backwards attitudes towards women in general and in particular non-Muslim girls which run rife throughout many Pakistani communities in the North West. not only this, but as i've said before, *if the testimony of the abused girls in the Rochdale case is anything to go by they were being used by huge numbers of men... a large scale operation which must have been tolerated by much larger circles of people than those actively involv*ed. one of the most disturbing thing about the Rochdale allegations for me was that i remembered, years before, batting off accusations of exactly these crimes against Pakistani communities from locals in Blackburn, Bolton, Burnley and a whole bunch of places as racist myths. these crimes have been open secrets in these areas for years and they're only now being uncovered.




How is this going to be resolved?, if its on this scale its dynamite on so many levels and could tear communities apart.


----------



## Idris2002 (Aug 27, 2014)

treelover said:


> How is this going to be resolved?, if its on this scale its dynamite on so many levels and could tear communities apart.



A community that can tolerate this sort of thing - whatever the ethnicity of its members - could deserve to be torn apart. But I assume that by 'torn apart' you mean something that would destroy the community in its present form without leaving anything in its place.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> many women and girls in these communities have their entire lives monitored and controlled to an extent which would quite commonly be seen as serious abuse in most of post-60s non-Pakistani Britain. the entire community is usually run by a blokes syndicate at the Mosque, which protects itself, mediates family disputes and helps protect the honour of 'respected' guys who may be falling into disrepute.



I believe this is the case in some British Pakistani communities, but certainly not everywhere. I've known communities in different parts of the same city where attitudes have been very different. I can easily believe that you've experienced some unpleasant things, particularly where treatment of women is concerned, but it's very dangerous to generalise.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...so...ergo...because not all people in poverty commit crime there is no correlation between poverty and crime...



If you're going to make comparisons, try and make them relevant.
If someone claims culture as the main cause of "Pakistani rape gangs", it's entirely legitimate to enquire as to the relative scarcity of Pakistani rape gangs compared to the size of the UK's Pakistani-derived population.  That doesn't imply no correlation between "Pakistani culture" and "rape", it points out that the correlation is at best weak. Hundreds of British-Pakistani rapists as measured against hundreds of thousands of male British-Pakistanis.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2014)

savoloysam said:


> 12 year olds by law can't give consent and if they do it verbally an adult by law can't act on it. It's rape however they try to dress it up.



A policeman saying otherwise is staggering and if it can be proven should be enough to charge him with criminal negligence.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I believe this is the case in some British Pakistani communities, but certainly not everywhere. I've known communities in different parts of the same city where attitudes have been very different. I can easily believe that you've experienced some unpleasant things, particularly where treatment of women is concerned, but it's very dangerous to generalise.



that's very true and i should make more pains to stress the graded nature of all of what i'm saying - ime attitudes in cities are much more progressive and tolerant than attitudes in outlying towns, and as you say they differ within communities too. but that said i think people would be shocked at how widespread some sentiments are in places like Burnley, or in Blackburn where i went to college.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 27, 2014)

Rotherham is the size of brighton and hove 1400 kids abused in 16 years kids saying gang rape was part of growing up 
 This wasn't just  these cunts
Name[2]ConvictionSentence
Zafran Ramzanrape, 2 charges of sexual activity with a child9 years
Razwan Razaq2 charges of sexual activity with a child11 years
Umar Razaqsexual activity with a child4.5 years
Adil Hussainsexual activity with a child4 years
Mohsin Khansexual activity with a child4 years

Some of these scumbags werent even in puberty when this shit started fucking council,police need to be fucked off.
 Bloody farthers were arressted for trying to rescue their daughters because they were racist proles who didnt understand multiculturalism
  If this isnt a case to riot I dont know what is


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> that's very true and i should make more pains to stress the graded nature of all of what i'm saying - ime attitudes in cities are much more progressive and tolerant than attitudes in outlying towns, and as you say they differ within communities too. but that said i think people would be shocked at how widespread some sentiments are in places like Burnley, or in Blackburn where i went to college.



I think this would correlate strongly with the areas where people in immigrant communities were treated well by the locals when those communities first began to develop. If a certain group of people feels isolated and embattled then those people will naturally become more insular and self-reliant, and therefore more vulnerable to dodgy people within that group gaining influence. It must be a lot easier to convince people that non-muslims are subhuman if your community has been a victim of sub-human behaviour from certain non-muslims in the past.


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

> Left Unity calls for full, long term, social, economic, health and legal support to be made available to all victims of child abuse.
> We call for fully funded children's services in every local authority with good professional development an...d trade union representation
> We call for children's voices to be heard in all services.
> The legal processes must be reformed.
> ...



What do posters think of this Left Unity statement, are they obfuscating, or being cautious,etc?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

treelover said:


> What do posters think of this Left Unity statement, are they obfuscating, or being cautious,etc?


Have you a link to the statement? 

Does it really matter what LU say? Is that what needs to be concentrated on here?


----------



## cesare (Aug 27, 2014)

Who are Left Unity?


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

treelover said:


> What do posters think of this Left Unity statement


That they are wankers, that the idea of using these events for (vacuous) self-publicity is loathsome
(and that when some of us finished up a text thirty years ago with the words 'We Need A New World' we were being semi-satirical).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...well this sort apparently...Mr Crowley...
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/23/rise-female-shoplifters-benefit-cuts-police


so who commits all the long firm fraud, internet scams and so on and so forth if it's not these poverty-stricken people?


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Have you a link to the statement?
> 
> Does it really matter what LU say? Is that what needs to be concentrated on here?



its on the FB page, that's all there is, unless you want to make a comment

no it doesn't but it is interesting they have said something, they are a growing left party which will eventually stand candidates, especially in areas like Rotherham


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

cesare said:


> Who are Left Unity?


they've surely split by now


----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> they've surely split by now



But there is now a Left Unity Reconciliation Coalition, currently locked in a bitter war with the Left Unity Reformation Committee over the rights to the acronym 'LURC'.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> nino_savatte
> 
> you have clearly had no experience with British Pakistani communities if you think there is any conceivable way you can compare these things. sorry but what you're arguing is total sophistry and absolutely cultural relativism. many women and girls in these communities have their entire lives monitored and controlled to an extent which would quite commonly be seen as serious abuse in most of post-60s non-Pakistani Britain. the entire community is usually run by a blokes syndicate at the Mosque, which protects itself, mediates family disputes and helps protect the honour of 'respected' guys who may be falling into disrepute. in most North West Pakistani Mosques, women still aren't even allowed to enter - allowed no-where near where their marriages are being arranged, businesses being attended to or grievances heard by local leaders. honour killings are a very real phenomenon... the organised scale and comprehensiveness of this patriarchy simply doesn't compare to the cultural residues of patriarchy amidst at least formal legal equality elsewhere.


You're making presumptions. You should familiarise yourself with section 11 of the report.

You should also have a look at the "Uni Lad.Go on, rape her. She won't report it" thread. If you think this sort of behaviour is exclusive to one culture, you to have a word with yourself. Sophistry, my arse.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 27, 2014)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Err, I don't think UKIP, the BNP, Britain First et al a using race as an issue will come as a surprise to many people.
> 
> The point I was making is that the impulse of the left will be to do the opposite and pretend that there isn't a race element thereby placing themselves on the wrong side of the debate (as usual) and leaving the field clear for others who already clearly have traction in the area (also as usual).


I'm old enough to remember the mugging scare of the 70s. People, many of them on the Right and some who should have known better, were claiming that mugging was carried out exclusively by young black men. Some people will also conclude that because more black men are in the penal system, that they must be genetically predisposed to criminality.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so who commits all the long firm fraud, internet scams and so on and so forth if it's not these poverty-stricken people?


 
...its all those ruthless thread hi-jackers that worry me...


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

There are a number of severe problems that arise directly from the report:


If 1,400 girls were systematically abused over a period of roughly 16 years in a town of under 250,000 people, how many people knew about the abuse and did or said nothing?  

Further, how quickly did this culture of abuse become commonplace or, more to the point, how quickly did Rotherham and surrounding areas readily come to accept it as the status quo, and why?

Finally, and perhaps most saliently, if it took Western European society decades of feminist struggle to afford women in 2014 the respect that they were denied in 1914, why is it inconceivable that other cultures have yet to make similar advances?  This is not a race issue, it is a cultural one - there are a multitudinous variety of different Muslim cultures but it is commonly recognised that the brand that comes from the tribal regions of Pakistan is brutal in the extreme towards women.


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 27, 2014)

Wasn't it the same council that suspended a UKIP member from fostering?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> There are a number of severe problems that arise directly from the report
> 
> Finally, and perhaps most saliently, if it took Western European society decades of feminist struggle to afford women in 2014 the respect that they were denied in 1914, why is it inconceivable that other cultures have yet to make similar advances?  This is not a race issue, it is a cultural one - there are a multitudinous variety of different Muslim cultures but it is commonly recognised that the brand that comes from the tribal regions of Pakistan is brutal in the extreme towards women.



Hang on, are you suggesting (and _most saliently_) women didn't have the vote and were discriminated against on a whole range of social issues because they were in some way culturally backwards? And in a way comparable to tribal pakistan? That  women had to be brought up to standard before being part of society and being deserving of equal rights and treatment?

Jesus, your drunk posts last week were better than this.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

It _is_ key here to disengage race from culture and refuse those who merge the two. There's a fair few knocking about reading this thread, dropping a few hints now and then.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> You're making presumptions. You should familiarise yourself with section 11 of the report.
> 
> You should also have a look at the "Uni Lad.Go on, rape her. She won't report it" thread. If you think this sort of behaviour is exclusive to one culture, you to have a word with yourself. Sophistry, my arse.


That's not fair, he's not saying no one else rapes/grooms.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> But there is now a Left Unity Reconciliation Coalition, currently locked in a bitter war with the Left Unity Reformation Committee over the rights to the acronym 'LURC'.


I'm looking forward to the emergence of the left unity reconciliation coalition: interim organisation


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> I'm old enough to remember the mugging scare of the 70s. People, many of them on the Right and some who should have known better, were claiming that mugging was carried out exclusively by young black men. Some people will also conclude that because more black men are in the penal system, that they must be genetically predisposed to criminality.



The thing is though in certain parts of the country at that time young black people were the majority perpetrators of street robbery. 

In other areas the majority were white . 

The most sensible conclusion was that as most robberies involve multiple perpetrators was that it was peer based.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It _is_ key here to disengage race from culture and refuse those who merge the two. There's a fair few knocking about reading this thread, dropping a few hints now and then.



Although not often so with butchers, I am in thorough agreement on this point. [no doubt that sounds rather pompous...]

Also, culture is syncretic in nature.  The culture of tribal areas of Pakistan, transported to the North of England, and then adapted by subsequent generations will most probably change to its environment while reflecting certain roots.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, are you suggesting (and _most saliently_) women didn't have the vote and were discriminated against on a whole range of social issues because they were in some way culturally backwards? And in a way comparable to tribal pakistan? That  women had to be brought up to standard before being part of society and being deserving of equal rights and treatment?
> 
> Jesus, your drunk posts last week were better than this.


I think you've misread - he's saying that "Western European society" was backward in its discrimination against women, not the women themselves. Those women fought and won many battles which have not been won in other societies (that there are still many more battles left unwon goes without saying). I don't think this is a controversial point is it?


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, are you suggesting (and _most saliently_) women didn't have the vote and were discriminated against on a whole range of social issues because they were in some way culturally backwards? And in a way comparable to tribal pakistan? That  women had to be brought up to standard before being part of society and being deserving of equal rights and treatment?
> 
> Jesus, your drunk posts last week were better than this.



Sorry, I can't follow your line of reasoning on this one.

I think the point was fairly clear but let me express it more succintly - *feminism took over a hundred years to achieve reasonably equal rights for women in one culture (i.e. ours, the West), is it so inconceivable that women are denied similar rights in other cultures where feminism is denied?*


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

Crispy said:


> I think you've misread - he's saying that "Western European society" was backward in its discrimination against women, not the women themselves. Those women fought and won many battles which have not been won in other societies (that there are still many more battles left unwon goes without saying). I don't think this is a controversial point is it?


Yes, i think i did misread. I do hope so. But you never know with diamond - apols to diamond if i had that wrong. 

Big differences though - one a coalition of bottom-up and middle class women fighting for social and political (note: not economic - but that's OT) equality - another a relic of a an old form of social relations, beaten into _authority_ _through religion_ then imported into another country where it can again be re-authorised. One expansive by definition, one wanting to be left alone and given some form of legitimacy_ by that very state_ that women fought against.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Sorry, I can't follow your line of reasoning on this one.
> 
> I think the point was fairly clear but let me express it more succintly - *feminism took over a hundred years to achieve reasonably equal rights for women in one culture (i.e. ours, the West), is it so inconceivable that women are denied similar rights in other cultures where feminism is denied?*


Yes, that's better, with the added points that this  culture doesn't exist on it's own (no matter how much it would like to) - it exists within a wider legal/political etc framework, as do the victims - and it was this wider culture that helped prime or facilitate them being victims.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

jakethesnake said:


> This. Not just a 'race' issue or a gender issue but a class issue.


I don't think this is race issue. No more than the high level peado ring or Savile etc is a race issue. This is a class and gender issue.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, that's better, with the added points that this  culture doesn't exist on it's own (no matter how much it would like to) - it exists within a wider legal/political etc framework, as do the victims - and it was this wider culture that helped prime or facilitate them being victims.



Agreed, although I suspect we would come to different conclusions on the precise nature of the surrounding superstructure, but that is, as you identify, surely the key point?

1,400 girls over 16 years and those are _conservative_ estimates.

Let's say each girl perhaps has a social circle of between 50 and 100 people, including friends and parents.

Then lets say that each girl perhaps lets on to maybe 5 people in her social circle, again a conservative estimate, about what may be happening to her.

So we come to an, admittedly back of a napkin, figure of maybe 7000 people who may have known to some degree about what was going on and did nothing out of a population of 250,000 odd.

And then, beyond that, there would surely have been talk of all of this that spread beyond people who knew more or less for sure that it was going on.

When you think through the mechanics of it, it is absolutely staggering.  It's not difficult, for instance, to come to the conclusion that the majority of people in town would have known what was going on.

I'm not quite sure what the ramifications of that are but it certainly goes beyond a specific culture within an individual town.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 27, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> I'm old enough to remember the mugging scare of the 70s. People, many of them on the Right and some who should have known better, were claiming that mugging was carried out exclusively by young black men. Some people will also conclude that because more black men are in the penal system, that they must be genetically predisposed to criminality.


 
What are you going on about?


----------



## TopCat (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I don't think this is race issue. No more than the high level peado ring or Savile etc is a race issue. This is a class and gender issue.


How does that analysis account then for the way that the perpetrators targeted the victims on the nature of their race, culture, gender and class?


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## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

TopCat said:


> How does that analysis account then for the way that the perpetrators targeted the victims on the nature of their race, culture, gender and class?




Again, that is a key point - racism travels in both directions.

Most of the alleged perpetrators were Northern English Pakistanis, _i.e. _brown men as they will be not very subtly identified in most news reports, and perhaps the most important point to recognise is that the targets of the abuse were individuals who were ostensibly viewed as beneath these men - white women.

In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> the vast bulk of these kind of grooming gangs are Pakistani though; not Bangladeshi, not Somalian, not Hindu, not Arab, not Persian. and despite the fact that most members of the community may not explicitly support such circuits the severe attitudes towards those who fall into their category of 'prostitute'are really quite widespread. it's not a thousand miles away from the attitudes that are pretty well established across North West Pakistani communities (where i'm from and only direct experience is based) to tolerating or apologizing for the kind of behaviour shown in these groups.


This means nothing really. OK some Pakistani people view women as pieces of shit. That's not synonymous with Pakistanis. You'll find that attitude with some men right the way across cultures, classes and races. I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are some cultural aspects to these cases. That is in some of these communities there is a tight knit culture. These predators single out vulnerable women. When that victim is under their control they tell their friends or family. So in that sense the modus operandi is no different to sexual predators that operate in groups of two or more. This is seen with the high level peado ring amongst mps, judges, children's homes etc. It's pedophiles operating together. The disproportionate amount of offenders being Asian is reflective of the  closed nature that exists in some aspects of Pakistani culture. I believe that is the only cultural aspect of these offences up for discussion. The overwhelming majority of the UKs Pakistani community will be disgusted by what's happened.


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## trabuquera (Aug 27, 2014)

ahem.
has it not been repeated ad nauseam that these men did in fact abuse several girls of Pakistani background as well as the others? Did that actually happen, or not?


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## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Again, that is a key point - racism travels in both directions.
> 
> Most of the alleged perpetrators were Northern English Pakistanis, _i.e. _brown men as they will be not very subtly identified in most news reports, and perhaps the most important point to recognise is that the targets of the abuse were individuals who were ostensibly viewed as beneath these men - white women.
> 
> In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.


No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?


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## TopCat (Aug 27, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> ahem.
> has it not been repeated ad nauseam that these men did in fact abuse several girls of Pakistani background as well as the others? Did that actually happen, or not?


I could not bring myself to read the report as of yet. However this is the first mention I have seen with regard to abuse of Pakistani origin girls/women.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from nice middle class backgrounds?


yes let's say that working class women are vulnerable and easier to manipulate with drugs and alcohol. 

working class homes are chaotic


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## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?



By the accounts that I have read, many of these girls did come from normal homes, with no prior history of abuse or disruption.

Perhaps I am wrong on that account.  I will return to the report and evidence to confirm in due course.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 27, 2014)

TopCat said:


> I could not bring myself to read the report as of yet. However this is the first mention I have seen with regard to abuse of Pakistani origin girls/women.


 
I haven't seen any mention of this. The Guardian reports that the ovewhelming majority of the abused were white and a smaller number were mixed race.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> The disproportionate amount of offenders being Asian is reflective of the  closed nature that exists in some aspects of Pakistani culture.


which aspects are those?


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## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes let's say that working class women are vulnerable and easier to manipulate with drugs and alcohol while middle class women can't be tempted.


Clearly not. But didn't many of these women come from children's homes, unstable problematic backgrounds etc so in that sense they'll be more vulnerable. I did use the world vulnerable first. I guess you missed that part


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## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

Not 1400 girls. "At a conservative estimate" 1400 girls *and boys*. The report dealt with all reported Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE) for which documentation could be found. A good many of the boys were related to the case of a single pedophile imprisoned in 2007 but the report stresses that under-reporting was far more likely for boys, as it also was for Pakistani girls.



> 4.18 - We read the files of ten boys who were groomed and abused by the lone male prosecuted and sentenced in 2007, and a further seven files of boys/young men who were his alleged victims. Following the trial, children's social care considered only two of the ten victims to meet the threshold for social care, although many had been raped and at least one was suspected of being involved in abusing other child victims. So far as we could ascertain from the files, none of these children was referred to Risky Business, and only one was referred for specialist counselling, where there was a long waiting list. One of the children who failed to meet the threshold for social care went on to become a serious sex offender, convicted of the abduction and rape of young girls.





> Six of the CSE team's caseload at May 2014 were male, and 45 female.



To repeat what has been said up-thread I think people do need to read the report.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Clearly not. But didn't many of these women come from children's homes, unstable problematic backgrounds etc so in that sense they'll be more vulnerable


yes. but it's a bit much for you to extrapolate from that that middle class women all come from stable backgrounds and are not vulnerable or that working class homes are any more chaotic than middle class homes.


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## seventh bullet (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?



I know, working class people are so dysfunctional aren't they?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I know, working class people are so dysfunctional aren't they?


yes. one whiff of the barmaid's apron and they're all over the place.


----------



## Sweet FA (Aug 27, 2014)

So it's not partly a class issue Pickman's model? (Genuinely asking).


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> By the accounts that I have read, many of these girls did come from normal homes, with no prior history of abuse or disruption.
> 
> Perhaps I am wrong on that account.  I will return to the report and evidence to confirm in due course.


yeh but it makes better copy to say they're from dysfunctional backgrounds - thus having a swipe at the victims too.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Again, that is a key point - racism travels in both directions.
> 
> Most of the alleged perpetrators were Northern English Pakistanis, _i.e. _brown men as they will be not very subtly identified in most news reports, and perhaps the most important point to recognise is that the targets of the abuse were individuals who were ostensibly viewed as beneath these men - white women.
> 
> In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.



Prejudice and exploitation of vulnerable young people. This was child trafficking for sex, not a manifestation of anti-white racism. The distinction is crucial. It's these vacuums in understanding that allow crap like this to reach such huge proportions and allow public officials to think of this as a community relations issue, rather than mass rape.

ETA: I can't articulate properly on this, maybe later.


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## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but it makes better copy to say they're from dysfunctional backgrounds - thus having a swipe at the victims too.



Agreed.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> which aspects are those?


Depends which area you're living in but areas where there is a ghettoised community where there's a greater concentration of said groups of people . 
That's not to say all communities like this are the same but there's a greater tendency in these communities for them to be tighter knit and possibly more insular.

I speak as someone that's lived and worked in some of these communities. I lived in Huddersfield for 7 years, worked there and Bradford too. 

There are some section of the Pakistani community that are very tight knit and insular. Not all but some.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

Sweet FA said:


> So it's not partly a class issue Pickman's model? (Genuinely asking your opinion).


yes, it is partly a class issue. but a very good point made in 'silence of the lambs' is that the offender covets what he sees: he isn't going to be after girls from roedean or boys from eton because the young people into which he runs come from a similar economic background - working class. however, it is to say the least unhelpful to bring various prejudices to the fore, eg working class girls inherently more vulnerable than middle class, middle class families more stable etc etc ad nauseam.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> yes. but it's a bit much for you to extrapolate from that that middle class women all come from stable backgrounds and are not vulnerable or that working class homes are any more chaotic than middle class homes.


I'm not. You're extrapolating that. I'm stating a fact. These girls were often targeted for their vulnerability. It just so happens that the girls in question were in many cases from a working class background. Now that doesnt mean people from middle class backgrounds are less likely to suffer from the same issues as these girls did-and it doesn't mean that working class girls are more likely to suffer from these issues either.


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## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

> 5.15 - The process of grooming has been well documented in national reports and research. Many of the cases we examined showed classic evidence of grooming. Many of the children were already vulnerable when grooming began. The perpetrators targeted children's residential units and residential services for care leavers. It was not unusual for children in residential services and schools to introduce other children to the perpetrators.





> 5.16 - Many of the case files we read described children who had troubled family backgrounds, with a history of domestic violence, parental addiction, and in some cases serious mental health problems. A significant number of the victims had a history of child neglect and/or sexual abuse when they were younger. Some had a desperate need for attention and affection.


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## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> Prejudice and exploitation of vulnerable young people. This was child trafficking for sex, not a manifestation of anti-white racism. The distinction is crucial. It's these vacuums in understanding that allow crap like this to reach such huge proportions and allow public officials to think of this as a community relations issue, rather than mass rape.
> 
> ETA: I can't articulate properly on this, maybe later.


Nope, that was excellently put.  I think diamond must have edited in that last line and i missed it or i'm sure i would have tried to say something similar.  But maybe that the CSE was facilitated by existing cultural prejudices - the prejudices were not the motivation.

And to repeat Lurdan, i think a lot more people (myself included) might be  beneficial.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

eatmorecheese said:


> Prejudice and exploitation of vulnerable young people. This was child trafficking for sex, not a manifestation of anti-white racism. The distinction is crucial. It's these vacuums in understanding that allow crap like this to reach such huge proportions and allow public officials to think of this as a community relations issue, rather than mass rape.
> 
> ETA: I can't articulate properly on this, maybe later.



Racism isn't just that picture of an unfortunate young black chap swinging from a tree in Alabama by the way...

It is much more subtle and runs far deeper than such extreme KKK style events.

When one group, ethnically self-defined, views another group, ethnically defined [albeit, crucially externally so], as sub-human or in some way capable of or conducive to exploitation for reasons that are *essential *to that ethnicity, then that is racism.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> I know, working class people are so dysfunctional aren't they?


Maybe if I rephrase that to stable backgrounds and omit the middle class. I can see how that can be misinterpreted but that wasn't my intention


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Racism isn't just that picture of an unfortunate young black chap swinging from a tree in Alabama by the way...
> 
> It is much more subtle and runs far deeper than such extreme KKK style events.
> 
> When one group, ethnically self-defined, views another group, ethnically defined [albeit, crucially externally so], as sub-human or in some way capable of or conducive to exploitation for reasons that are *essential *to that ethnicity, then that is racism.


What about if it's only vulnerable young boys and girls from that group who are viewed as sub-human - and so targeted? Or do you think was anti-white people full stop? That this is what drove it and what lies behind both these actions and the wider culture that supported it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> No they targeted vulnerable women first and foremost. If they were singling out white women per se why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes? They've gone for women they know will be easier to manipulate and ply with drugs and alcohol. How many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?





Grandma Death said:


> I'm not. You're extrapolating that. I'm stating a fact. These girls were often targeted for their vulnerability. It just so happens that the girls in question were in many cases from a working class background. Now that doesnt mean people from middle class backgrounds are less likely to suffer from the same issues as these girls did-and it doesn't mean that working class girls are more likely to suffer from these issues either.


your first post quoted asks

a) 'why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes?'
b) 'how many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?'

the clear implication being that you feel that a) middle class homes more stable; b) working class girls more vulnerable; c) working class homes more chaotic. I'm not the only person to have so interpreted your post. perhaps there are implications and meanings in your post you did not intend. that doesn't mean they're not there.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> This means nothing really. OK some Pakistani people view women as pieces of shit. That's not synonymous with Pakistanis. You'll find that attitude with some men right the way across cultures, classes and races. I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are some cultural aspects to these cases. That is in some of these communities there is a tight knit culture. These predators single out vulnerable women. When that victim is under their control they tell their friends or family. So in that sense the modus operandi is no different to sexual predators that operate in groups of two or more. This is seen with the high level peado ring amongst mps, judges, children's homes etc. It's pedophiles operating together. The disproportionate amount of offenders being Asian is reflective of the  closed nature that exists in some aspects of Pakistani culture. I believe that is the only cultural aspect of these offences up for discussion. The overwhelming majority of the UKs Pakistani community will be disgusted by what's happened.



yes but some cultures propogate ideas more comprehensively, reliably and severely than others. i also don't think that in all of these grooming cases it's as simple as comparing it to a paedo ring... as you say, vulnerability is a large part of the issue and i think some of the girls were picked up because they were vulnerable as a result of being young than because they were young. why i think it's important to acknowledge the communal issue is that as opposed to a paedo ring where they assorted weirdos and fuck ups find eachother and operate against the grain of their surroundings, my entire contention is that in some areas there are broadly common sentiments expressed on behalf of certain communities which essentially tolerate or apologise for this kind of behaviour.

that, with all the caveats noted by spanky longhorn on page 7 or whichever...


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What about if it's only vulnerable young boys and girls from that group who are viewed as sub-human?



Clearly that is a complicating factor, in the same manner that only white girls of a particular socio-economic class might meet the requirements for such contempt, although I would argue that the push factors in that event would probably have origins in racial prejudice whereas the pull factors would serve to exclude those who are more privileged.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Clearly that is a complicating factor, in the same manner that only white girls of a particular socio-economic class might meet the requirements for such contempt, although I would argue that the push factors in that event would probably have origins in racial prejudice whereas the pull factors would serve to exclude those who are more privileged.



Is that the situation here then? Anti white racism directed solely at vulnerable young people because other white targets are not avaliable? Nonsense.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> yes but some cultures propogate ideas more comprehensively, reliably and severely than others. i also don't think that in all of these grooming cases it's as simple as comparing it to a paedo ring... as you say, vulnerability is a large part of the issue and i think some of the girls were picked up because they were vulnerable as a result of being young than because they were young. why i think it's important to acknowledge the communal issue is that as opposed to a paedo ring where they assorted weirdos and fuck ups find eachother and operate against the grain of their surroundings, my entire contention is that in some areas there are broadly common sentiments expressed on behalf of certain communities which essentially tolerate or apologise for this kind of behaviour.
> 
> that, with all the caveats noted by spanky longhorn on page 7 or whichever...


But I think misogynistic attitudes exist across all cultures. Such attitudes manifest themselves in many different ways. To suggest this is a cultural issue because they are Pakistanis is a mistake. Because it suggests this is a Pakistani issue when I don't think it is. Now that's not to say negative attitudes to women don't exist in the Pakistani community but that community is large with different attitudes contained within the community as a whole. So I'd say misogyny exists in some sections of the Pakistani community but it's not synonymous with the Pakistani community. Because they Pakistani community isn't one big homogenous group


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> your first post quoted asks
> 
> a) 'why haven't they targeted young girls from stable homes?'
> b) 'how many of these girls were from stable middle class backgrounds?'
> ...


I've already withdrawn the statement as above


----------



## Diamond (Aug 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Is that the situation here then? Anti white racism directed solely at vulnerable young people because other white targets are not avaliable? Nonsense.



You are failing to understand the wider point about racism.

It is rare for racism to be overt - for it to be the principal motivating factor in people's behaviour.

Rather, it provides the environmental context for people's actions.

I would wager that these girls were in no way targeted to inflict damage on an imagined white threat.  Instead, it seems likely to me, that their identity pointed the way towards their exploitation for the perpretrators' sexual gratification.

In that way, their ethnicity would not have been a cause of hatred but rather a signpost to rape.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> You are failing to understand the wider point about racism.
> 
> It is rare for racism to be overt - for it to be the principal motivating factor in people's behaviour.
> 
> ...


Given that I've already outlined such a situation I don't think I am. I'm just not falling for your crude brush strokes approach.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> But I think misogynistic attitudes exist across all cultures. Such attitudes manifest themselves in many different ways. To suggest this is a cultural issue because they are Pakistanis is a mistake. Because it suggests this is a Pakistani issue when I don't think it is. Now that's not to say negative attitudes to women don't exist in the Pakistani community but that community is large with different attitudes contained within the community as a whole. So I'd say misogyny exists in some sections of the Pakistani community but it's not synonymous with the Pakistani community. Because they Pakistani community isn't one big homogenous group



they do, and yes there are differences within every community (and the realm of difference within communities is greater than the realm of differences between communities) but you can still see trends in different directions and with different levels of severity and regularity... otherwise you could say that there's no such thing as cultural difference at all. misogyny is not the sole preserve of Pakistani communities no, but comparatively there seems to be a lot of involvement from Pakistani communities in grooming gangs targeting non-Muslim girls - this is backed up by widespread attitudes towards non-Muslims which in some areas are quite profligate. that, specifically, is an issue of the Pakistani community - not rape or grooming or misogyny in abstract. but it's still something worth recognising, because if the left refuse to make the connection the rest of the population will make it for themselves, and the right will be given free reign to take the conclusions in their own racial/ethnic directions.


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## seventh bullet (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Maybe if I rephrase that to stable backgrounds and omit the middle class. I can see how that can be misinterpreted but that wasn't my intention



I agree with you on the vulnerability of those girls being an important factor in their sexual exploitation, but like Pickman's said earlier (and with butchersapron's illustrative post as well) the openly expressed and mainstream anti-working class prejudice we have in our society can contribute to generalisations which aren't so helpful in understanding what went on (for one, the potential for victim blaming).  The contempt for these girls and the class they come from is not just from the rapists but the authorities which stood by allowed it to happen.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 27, 2014)

Yes, other cultures also at fault here.


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## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> but comparatively there seems to be a lot of involvement from Pakistani communities in grooming gangs targeting non-Muslim girls


This is the sort of slippage I don't care for. There seems to be a lot of involvement of criminals from Pakistani communities. Why leave open the assumption that the actions of these criminals is simply determined by cultural attitudes within the Pakistani community ? Isn't it just as likely that they exploit those attitudes as part of exploiting their situation within that community ? That is what criminals do.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> they do, and yes there are differences within every community (and the realm of difference within communities is greater than the realm of differences between communities) but you can still see trends in different directions and with different levels of severity and regularity... otherwise you could say that there's no such thing as cultural difference at all. misogyny is not the sole preserve of Pakistani communities no, but comparatively there seems to be a lot of involvement from Pakistani communities in grooming gangs targeting non-Muslim girls - this is backed up by widespread attitudes towards non-Muslims which in some areas are quite profligate. that, specifically, is an issue of the Pakistani community - not rape or grooming or misogyny in abstract. but it's still something worth recognising, because if the left refuse to make the connection the rest of the population will make it for themselves, and the right will be given free reign to take the conclusions in their own racial/ethnic directions.



As I've already said the cultural aspect here is reflective of the tighter knit aspect of some of these communities. Extended families etc it's more about the MO rather than the culture itself. Many of these people know each other either through direct or indirect family connections. They are familiar to each other because they live, work and mix within their own communities. Add to that the secretive nature of some of those communities then this explains why there is a disproportionate amount of Pakistani offenders. Any community that is largely insular creates an environment where abuse is easily covered up and in this case shared within that community. I would wager more 'westernised' Pakistanis not residing in these communities were less likely if at all to be involved in these cases. I think these men were misogynistic rapists first and foremost. The possible cultural attitudes aren't the determining factor here. In the same way there isn't a white cultural problem with the high level peado rings. What unites these cases is abuse of power and manipulation. Common strands throughout group abuse. I will readily concede there may be more negative attitudes in some sections of the Pakistani community but I don't think that's the primary driver in the minds of these abusers.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 27, 2014)

This issue has nothing to do with race. Asian perpetrators?
Surely the issue is that these children ... 1400 were abused beyond belief and abandoned.
why the fuck are the media making an issue of the race of the perpetrators? The perpetrators at the bbc were all white...most of the staff who said nothing were all white...is this relevant? Is it fuck!
Until people in power are held accountable this shit will keep on occurring...is it really a coincidence the the south yorkshire police are involved?
No one gave a shit cos these girls were not highly thought of...that is a crime in itself.
And with all this talk of race the issue of how to protect all children from all abusers is ignored


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## comrade spurski (Aug 27, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> the comparison doesn't wash - there is no real white community but there are many Pakistani communities, in a very real sense. they exist, with established hierarchies, organisations and decision making procedures and in many of these mass grooming cases there is a large degree of complicity. if this case is anything like Rochdale (which i can't imagine it not being) it was engaged in by a large section of the entire community with the complicit knowledge of much of the rest, reinforced by a culture which regarded the victims as whores for not being born and brought up a strict Muslim.
> 
> the institutional protection which money and power brings to pervert celebrities can't be ascribed to the cultural leanings of 'whites' or anyone, rather they're just privileges which come along with the social position. by contrast, in the Rochdale and Rotheram cases the perpetrators were people who were in no way particularly powerful on a social level yet were surrounded by a general culture which protected their activities. there is not a single other cultural group in the UK where these grooming gangs crop up with such regularity or scale.


 6 men do not represent a community...these men were child abusers...that used power to horrifically abuse over a thousand children.
the white men at the bbc...stuart hall, saville, harris plus clifford with his links to bbc celebs abused hundreds upon hundreds...yet there race is irrelevant to everyone including you.
If we wish to protect all children we as a society need to look at why people abuse children and why people do not see the signs children give out when they are abused and why people do not listen to kids.
talking about race does none of these things as it is irrelevant.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

I quoted this on the other thread but it's perhaps worth repeating here.



> 8.16 -One of the common threads running through child sexual exploitation across England has been the prominent role of taxi drivers in being directly linked to children who were abused. This was the case in Rotherham from a very early stage, when residential care home heads met in the nineties to share intelligence about taxis and other cars which picked up girls from outside their units. In the early 2000s some secondary school heads were reporting girls being picked up at lunchtime at the school gates and being taken away to provide oral sex to men in the lunch break.





> 8.17 - A diagram and backing papers supplied to the Police in 2001 by Risky Business
> linked alleged perpetrators with victims, taxi companies and individual drivers.





> 8.21 -The Safeguarding Unit convened Strategy meetings from time to time on allegations involving taxi drivers. We read some of the most serious, from 2010, and were struck by the sense of exasperation, even hopelessness, recorded as the professionals in attendance tried to find ways of disrupting the suspected activity. Strategy meetings about one specific taxi firm had been held on four occasions in a seven week period. The minutes of one meeting record a total of ten girls and young women, three of whom were involved in three separate incidents of alleged attempted abduction by taxi drivers. The seven other girls had alleged that they were being sexually exploited in exchange for free taxi rides and goods. Two of the girls involved were looked after children. The Licensing Enforcement Officer took the step of formally writing to the Police following the incidents of alleged attempted abductions by drivers, complaining about the Police failure to act.





> In one incident, a driver accosted a 13-year-old girl. She refused to do what he asked and reported this to her parents who followed the taxi through the town, where they managed to identify the driver and dialled 999 for assistance. According to the Licensing Enforcement Officer, the Police did not attend until later and took no action. In his email to the Police he stated that 'a simple check would have revealed that the driver had been arrested a week previously in Bradford for a successful kidnapping of a lone female.' (...)





> 8.22 - A further issue of safeguarding concerned those taxi firms which had a contract with the Council to transport some of the most vulnerable children to various resources within the authority. Some of the Council's difficulty was that they did not always have the drivers' names when allegations were made. Nor did they have a list of the drivers who transported children as part of the Council contract.


(It's not emphasised in the report but it's worth highlighting the words 'when allegations were made')

I certainly wouldn't want to suggest that it's true of all taxi, mini-cab or limousine hire drivers but my experience here in London is that among a lot of drivers there is not just involvement in illegal activity of different kinds (dealing, procuring etc.) but also of links to broader criminal networks. It's an occupation which lends itself to that. The section in the report about this suggests that this is also true in Rotherham. I'm a bit wary of the way the term 'gangs' is being thrown around but we are clearly talking about groups or networks of criminals. Why the assumption that the most significant determinant of their activity is their cultural background rather than the ethos of those shared criminal activities ?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 27, 2014)

The glaring role of misogyny needs to be downplayed by the dominant reactionary forces scrabbling to make political capital from this horror. Citing misogyny is itself deemed "politically correct ".


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 27, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> 6 men do not represent a community...these men were child abusers...that used power to horrifically abuse over a thousand children.
> the white men at the bbc...stuart hall, saville, harris plus clifford with his links to bbc celebs abused hundreds upon hundreds...yet there race is irrelevant to everyone including you.
> If we wish to protect all children we as a society need to look at why people abuse children and why people do not see the signs children give out when they are abused and why people do not listen to kids.
> talking about race does none of these things as it is irrelevant.



race is irrelevant to me too - the structure and culture of the community is what i'm focussing on. in the Saville/BBC scandals money and institutional leverage within large social institutions was what enabled them to get away with their crimes, and quite rightly that was focussed upon. when Catholic priests were uncovered as having abused loads of children, quite rightly the Catholic church as an institution was focussed on as being the vehicle through which priests were enabled access to their victims and immunity from prosecution. now, i believe that part of what enabled these men to go about doing their deeds was the tacit cultural acceptance and general cover offered by their community. the scale of offences goes beyond the smaller numbers specifically prosecuted, and couldn't have happened on such a broad scale without a widespread knowledge within the community and an unwillingness or indifference to challenging it. like i said earlier, these groups have been an open secret in many northern towns for decades.


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## weltweit (Aug 27, 2014)

Perpetrators should do time, and

Heads should roll......

But will they ?


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## Citizen66 (Aug 27, 2014)

These were vulnerable girls at the bottom of the pecking order and police and officials simply didn't give a fuck. Political correctness my arse. Since when has political correctness bothered the old fucking bill? Did they stop arresting black youths in the last ten years? Have I missed something?


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## Citizen66 (Aug 27, 2014)

This isn't a race thing. Jimmy Savile, Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris aren't Asian.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I quoted this on the other thread but it's perhaps worth repeating here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree but we have to answers when faced with the statistics show a disproportionate amount of Pakistani men are involved in this type of crime. I have suggested why I think this is. If we ignore this then the right will have a field day with it.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 27, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> This isn't a race thing. Jimmy Savile, Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris aren't Asian.



You are right of course. However, yet again, the subtext here is that sexual abuse by White/European men isn't as bad as sexual abuse by men of other ethnicities. It is as course, but racism is institutionalised and as such will show itself.


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## Shirl (Aug 27, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> This issue has nothing to do with race. Asian perpetrators?
> Surely the issue is that these children ... 1400 were abused beyond belief and abandoned.
> why the fuck are the media making an issue of the race of the perpetrators? The perpetrators at the bbc were all white...most of the staff who said nothing were all white...is this relevant? Is it fuck!
> Until people in power are held accountable this shit will keep on occurring...is it really a coincidence the the south yorkshire police are involved?
> ...


I totally agree with you. So many attempts to sidetrack the real issues.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 27, 2014)

[QUOTE"Grandma Death, post: 13363009, member: 10239"]I agree but we have to answers when faced with the statistics show a disproportionate amount of Pakistani men are involved in this type of crime. I have suggested why I think this is. If we ignore this then the right will have a field day with it.[/QUOTE]

Where  is the evidence that show a disproportionate amount of pakistani men are involved in sexual abuse of children?
Mentioning this case and one or two others and then ignoring all other sexual abuse of children seems to be the only way to come to that conclusion.
Sexual abuse of any child by anyone is the issue...it is a crime where victims are often disbelieved by adults (neighbours, teachers, carers, other family members etc.) because the perpetrators are often seen as being 'not the sort' or because they are powerful people who instill fear (political or physical fear).
This is the great problem in child abuse cases...children are not heard...the warning signs in the childs behaviour are overlooked and children are disbelieved.
This insistance that there is a problem with pakistani men is a smoke screen used by the right wing for there own ends. The problem with the sexual abuse of children should not be used as a political toy...those child abuse cases have occured in equally horrific numbers else wgere and race is not mentioned...ie the catholic church, the saville case (thought to have abused over 600 by himself), stuart hall and rolf harris and max clifford (thought to have abused dozens each) plus many other cases such as cyril smith (thought to have abused hundreds).
The issue to deal with is the lack of power for children to be believed, the abuse of power by the child abusers and the lack of care by the agencies supposed to care for the children.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 27, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> [QUOTE"Grandma Death, post: 13363009, member: 10239"]I agree but we have to answers when faced with the statistics show a disproportionate amount of Pakistani men are involved in this type of crime. I have suggested why I think this is. If we ignore this then the right will have a field day with it.



Where  is the evidence that show a disproportionate amount of pakistani men are involved in sexual abuse of children?
Mentioning this case and one or two others and then ignoring all other sexual abuse of children seems to be the only way to come to that conclusion.
Sexual abuse of any child by anyone is the issue...it is a crime where victims are often disbelieved by adults (neighbours, teachers, carers, other family members etc.) because the perpetrators are often seen as being 'not the sort' or because they are powerful people who instill fear (political or physical fear).
This is the great problem in child abuse cases...children are not heard...the warning signs in the childs behaviour are overlooked and children are disbelieved.
This insistance that there is a problem with pakistani men is a smoke screen used by the right wing for there own ends. The problem with the sexual abuse of children should not be used as a political toy...those child abuse cases have occured in equally horrific numbers else wgere and race is not mentioned...ie the catholic church, the saville case (thought to have abused over 600 by himself), stuart hall and rolf harris and max clifford (thought to have abused dozens each) plus many other cases such as cyril smith (thought to have abused hundreds).
The issue to deal with is the lack of power for children to be believed, the abuse of power by the child abusers and the lack of care by the agencies supposed to care for the children.[/QUOTE]
http://gu.com/p/3fpvy

I've read statistics that show despite the fact Asians are a minority they make up a disproportionate amount of offences of this nature. Now we can chew over and dispute those statistics but the right are having a field day with this and we need to have answers. It's not about ignoring other abuse. I'm certainly not that's for sure.


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2014)

Some dads attempted to get their daughters back  from their abusers and were then arrested 

Race was involved rapisits were pakistani and its been mentioned several times people were reluctant to investigate because being accused of racism is the end of your career  and whistle blowing protection is worthless.
 Plus people who mentioned this for years were accused of pedaling racist myths


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Agreed, although I suspect we would come to different conclusions on the precise nature of the surrounding superstructure, but that is, as you identify, surely the key point?
> 
> 1,400 girls over 16 years and those are _conservative_ estimates.
> 
> ...



You're making a series of assumptions about communication of information that aren't really borne out by what we know about the nature of reaction to violent sexual assault.
For example, a significant minority of victims suffer from peri- and post-traumatic dissasociation. In other words, they can't communicate to *anyone* what they've experienced, because their subconscious refuses to permit them to think about it.
There's also issues around post-violence coercion, which is another unfortunately-successful method of stopping victims communicating their victimhood.
Your "mechanics" are ragged and rusty, and arriving at the conclusion that "the majority of people in town would have known what was going on" is frankly crass sensationalism.

What this monstrous farago demonstrates isn't the silent complicity of a "majority of people in town", but the effectiveness of violence as a coercive tool, and the nature of local power and those that wield it.


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## Lurdan (Aug 27, 2014)

From the 1930s and the arrival of the Messina family, to the end of the 1970s and the departure back to Malta of Frank Mifsud a significant part of the vice trade in London was controlled by men of Maltese origin. But that wasn't because there are aspects of Maltese culture which encourage involvement in such activities. Rather it had a lot to do with the 'service industries' that developed around the British garrison in Malta. (It gave Herbert Lom an acting career boost as the go-to vice lord in British films, although the reasons why that was the case are probably invisible to modern audiences).

Does anyone find it surprising that people from a shared background network on that basis ? It happens in every community and at every level of society and that includes criminals.

It's important to question the bases of that networking. Similarly it's important to question ingrained misogyny in specific communities. I just don't accept that we should jump to simplistic conclusions about the linkage between those things when there are other, and in my opinion more significant, things that should also be taken into account.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2014)

TopCat said:


> How does that analysis account then for the way that the perpetrators targeted the victims on the nature of their race, culture, gender and class?



The victimisation wasn't exclusive of British-Pakistani children. It's just that they formed only a small subset of the victims, and doesn't sell as well in the media as "Pakistanis rape white girls".


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Some dads attempted to get their daughters back  from their abusers and were then arrested
> 
> Race was involved rapisits were pakistani and its been mentioned several times people were reluctant to investigate because being accused of racism is the end of your career  and whistle blowing protection is worthless.
> Plus people who mentioned this for years were accused of pedaling racist myths


peddling. not pedalling.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> peddling. not pedalling.



paedoling


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## Shirl (Aug 27, 2014)

This may not be relevant but as a teenage girl growing up in Burnley in the 1960's there were a lot of pakistani men living all around where I lived. They had recently moved here and lived mostly in all male houses.
Walking home from pubs/clubs late at night and seeing a man walking towards me, I was always relieved if it was a pakistani man. They always felt safe to me, having been flashed at/propositioned by numerous white Burnley bastards 
I'm really hating all this racist judgement 
I've also heard young asian men talking about Rotherham on the radio saying that they too are appalled by what's gone on and in no way is it cultural.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 27, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Where  is the evidence that show a disproportionate amount of pakistani men are involved in sexual abuse of children?
> Mentioning this case and one or two others and then ignoring all other sexual abuse of children seems to be the only way to come to that conclusion.
> Sexual abuse of any child by anyone is the issue...it is a crime where victims are often disbelieved by adults (neighbours, teachers, carers, other family members etc.) because the perpetrators are often seen as being 'not the sort' or because they are powerful people who instill fear (political or physical fear).
> This is the great problem in child abuse cases...children are not heard...the warning signs in the childs behaviour are overlooked and children are disbelieved.
> ...


http://gu.com/p/3fpvy

I've read statistics that show despite the fact Asians are a minority they make up a disproportionate amount of offences of this nature. Now we can chew over and dispute those statistics but the right are having a field day with this and we need to have answers. It's not about ignoring other abuse. I'm certainly not that's for sure.[/QUOTE]

You have read statistics? Seriously?
That makes it a fact does it?
Sometimes I despair at people quoting things as facts without any proof cos they read it somewhere


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## likesfish (Aug 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> peddling. not pedalling.


Agian with the intelligence nazism


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## Pickman's model (Aug 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Agian with the intelligence nazism


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## Shirl (Aug 27, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> http://gu.com/p/3fpvy
> 
> I've read statistics that show despite the fact Asians are a minority they make up a disproportionate amount of offences of this nature. Now we can chew over and dispute those statistics but the right are having a field day with this and we need to have answers. It's not about ignoring other abuse. I'm certainly not that's for sure.



You have read statistics? Seriously?
That makes it a fact does it?
Sometimes I despair at people quoting things as facts without any proof cos they read it somewhere[/QUOTE]
comrade spurski 
your quotes of other people come up as quotes from you. It's disconcerting


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## Shirl (Aug 27, 2014)

Shirl said:


> You have read statistics? Seriously?
> That makes it a fact does it?
> Sometimes I despair at people quoting things as facts without any proof cos they read it somewhere


comrade spurski
your quotes of other people come up as quotes from you. It's disconcerting [/QUOTE]
Jesus, I just did the same thing


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## comrade spurski (Aug 27, 2014)

Shirl
I have no idea how that happened


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## Shirl (Aug 27, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> Shirl
> I have no idea how that happened


Me neither


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## Dogsauce (Aug 27, 2014)

Were the victims not mainly selected from a vulnerable section of society (care etc.) rather than selected 'because they were white' as the media narrative seems to be putting it?  I wonder how many Pakistani/Muslim children were in the care system at the time this was going on - the ethnic profile of victims may just be more reflective of who was in the care system and a 'racial' motive for their targeting could be discounted on this basis.

There may be closer links within Pakistani communities (like any expat community) than within 'native' communities, and abusing children within local circles could be riskier than picking on a group outside of this, in particular picking vulnerable/damaged individuals who don't have the power/connections to report abuse and are less likely to be believed or respected by authorities. They likely chose such targets because they believed (or knew from experience) that they could get away with it.


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## Sprocket. (Aug 27, 2014)

I am at this very moment sat talking to my workmate, a Pakistani lad from Eastwood in Rotherham and he is fucking livid about these abusing bastards. His big concern is his safety when walking home from the bus stop in about 45 minutes. There are some proper nasty bastards about in town late at night and any excuse for thumping an Asian bloke is usually taken. He feels so bad about it all but again he says the authorities were told time and time again and now the community will suffer for a couple of dozen bastards and a load of police and council officers.


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## gimesumtruf (Aug 27, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> This isn't a race thing. Jimmy Savile, Gary Glitter and Rolf Harris aren't Asian.



Children have been allowed out of children's homes (for how long,who knows?) because carers are faced with putting choke holds on these children who know the law but not their own minds.
I've seen this stuff for years now, for instance police picking up kids late at night, taking them back, only to see them out again the same night(exploited in too many ways to mention) .
The whole of child welfare is not fit for purpose and regrettably never has been.
While our politician's are allowed outside interests, then we cannot trust them to do an exclusive job imho.
How long are we going to have these expensive and useless *inquiries?
Just look at our country, the west in general, it's all broken. Can we wake up now?*


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## Dogsauce (Aug 27, 2014)

Yeah, wake up Sheeple!


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## Shirl (Aug 27, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> I am at this very moment sat talking to my workmate, a Pakistani lad from Eastwood in Rotherham and he is fucking livid about these abusing bastards. His big concern is his safety when walking home from the bus stop in about 45 minutes. There are some proper nasty bastards about in town late at night and any excuse for thumping an Asian bloke is usually taken. He feels so bad about it all but again he says the authorities were told time and time again and now the community will suffer for a couple of dozen bastards and a load of police and council officers.


Liked because I sympathise with your mate at work.


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## Shirl (Aug 27, 2014)

Every woman in this country should be up in arms right now


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 27, 2014)

Shirl said:


> Liked because I sympathise with your mate at work.



Same.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 27, 2014)

Diamond said:


> When one group, ethnically self-defined, views another group, ethnically defined [albeit, crucially externally so], as sub-human or in some way capable of or conducive to exploitation for reasons that are *essential *to that ethnicity, then that is racism.



This is not about abuse of white people, it's about abuse of children. 

Just like people who are sickened by these acts are not reacting to the race of the perpetrators, but to their actions.


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## toggle (Aug 27, 2014)

Shirl said:


> Every woman in this country should be up in arms right now



i suspect i'm not the only one who is still at the trying not to puke andcry stage. 

but everyone should be angry about this, not just women.


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## spliff (Aug 27, 2014)

Shaun Wright has quit the Labour Party but remains South Yorkshire's PCC.


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## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

Dogsauce said:


> Were the victims not mainly selected from a vulnerable section of society (care etc.) rather than selected 'because they were white' as the media narrative seems to be putting it?  I wonder how many Pakistani/Muslim children were in the care system at the time this was going on - the ethnic profile of victims may just be more reflective of who was in the care system and a 'racial' motive for their targeting could be discounted on this basis.
> 
> There may be closer links within Pakistani communities (like any expat community) than within 'native' communities, and abusing children within local circles could be riskier than picking on a group outside of this, in particular picking vulnerable/damaged individuals who don't have the power/connections to report abuse and are less likely to be believed or respected by authorities. They likely chose such targets because they believed (or knew from experience) that they could get away with it.



I don't think a racial motive can be discounted on the basis that vulnerable girls are supposedly more likely to be white (in fact if it was true, I think that would be racist in one sense of the word), and it's certainly not a stretch of the imagination that these sick child rapists may be racists, but one fact that might shed some light on the 'is it also a racial hate crime issue?' question is if we could know how prevalent rape was perpetrated on Muslim girls by Muslim rape gangs.

The Rotherham report considers a point along these lines with its citation of research led by the UK Muslim Women's Network, who have said Asian Muslim girls are in one sense particularly vulnerable to rape and exploitation because of the perception on the part of these victims of sexual violence that they would be disbelieved, alienated and ostracised if they ever went public with allegations of abuse - which of course makes it particularly difficult to know how prevalent their victimisation is.

Quote:

_11.14 One of the local Pakistani women's groups described how Pakistani-heritage girls
were targeted by taxi drivers and on occasion by older men lying in wait outside
school gates at dinner times and after school. They also cited cases in Rotherham
where Pakistani landlords had befriended Pakistani women and girls on their own for
purposes of sex, then passed on their name to other men who had then contacted
them for sex. The women and girls feared reporting such incidents to the Police
because it would affect their future marriage prospects.


11.15 The UK Muslim Women's Network produced a report on CSE in September 2013
which drew on 35 case studies of women from across the UK who were victims, the
majority of whom were Muslim. It highlighted that Asian girls were being sexually
exploited where authorities were failing to identify or support them. They were most
vulnerable to men from their own communities who manipulated cultural norms to
prevent them from reporting their abuse. It described how this abuse was being
carried out. 'Offending behaviour mostly involved men operating in groups . . . The
victim was being passed around and prostituted amongst many other men. Our
research also showed that complex grooming ‘hierarchies’ were at play. The physical
abuse included oral, anal and vaginal rape; role play; insertion of objects into the
vagina; severe beatings; burning with cigarettes; tying down; enacting rape that
included ripping clothes off and sexual activity over the webcam.' This description
mirrors the abuse committed by Pakistani-heritage perpetrators on white girls in
Rotherham._


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## Fingers (Aug 28, 2014)

EDL's Andy Edge is having a hunger strike outside Rotherham nick since this afternoon. He wants the PCC to resign as he should.  A few fash have turned up to support him and have sparked up a BBQ outside the nick which I am sure is helping his cause. 

Edge is the Stockport RO and is facing 3/4 years behind bars for getting all violent at their Birmingham demo last month and is a type 1 diabetic. I can only see this as ending up with him getting his arse saved by a couple of paramedics of the Muslim persuasion. 

Latest updates seem to be on the #edlhungerstriker hashtag on Twitter


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> I don't think a racial motive can be discounted on the basis that vulnerable girls are supposedly more likely to be white (in fact if it was true, I think that would be racist in one sense of the word), and it's certainly not a stretch of the imagination that these sick child rapists may be racists, but one fact that might shed some light on the 'is it also a racial hate crime issue?' question is if we could know how prevalent rape was perpetrated on Muslim girls by Muslim rape gangs.
> 
> The Rotherham report considers a point along these lines with its citation of research led by the UK Muslim Women's Network, who have said Asian Muslim girls are in one sense particularly vulnerable to rape and exploitation because of the perception on the part of these victims of sexual violence that they would be disbelieved, alienated and ostracised if they ever went public with allegations of abuse - which of course makes it particularly difficult to know how prevalent their victimisation is.
> 
> ...



Yeah but even less people give a fuck about brown girls getting abused by brown men. It's just not newsworthy


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## Fingers (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Yeah but even less people give a fuck about brown girls getting abused by brown men. It's just not newsworthy



This ^ full stop.


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## Fingers (Aug 28, 2014)

Nonces are not going to be too fussed about the colour of the kiddies they are noncing unless they are are full on racists and even then they are quite happy to employ massive hypocrisy as long as their mates don't find out about it and as long they get the opportunity to do some noncing. 

Saying that, a  local London Hitler enthusiast is quite happy to indulge in his indiscretions but does not want his Nazi mates to know about it (or care about it)

There is nothing racial' about it. Nonces nonce at just about every opportunity they can, and think they can get away with. Nonces are not guided by religion, they are guided by their need to control of vulnerable  people who are weaker than themselves and bring their own social inadequacies into play.

Unfortunately, there are certain cultural barriers which make brown girls unable and unwilling to report and get justice for crimes against them and that needs dealing with.  Not too dissimilar to the same barriers have been there for the white 'estate girls' in Rotherham, barriers put up by the ineffective wankers at Rotherham 'Child Support' where they had been classed as written off and not worthy/beyond help.

That has to be dealt with. Brown/White. This is not just Rotherham and Rochdale. It is considerably more widespread without a doubt and so much of it has been bought about by a culture which dictates that you have to be careful about offending people which has now got out of control.

A paedophile is a paedophile whatever their race or culture and someone who abuses kids has to be bought to justice which is more important than 'offending' races or cultures. Anyone who sits on their arses whilst this sort of this happens does not deserve to be in the jobs they have.

I am left wing as fuck but this shit and denial within the left has to stop.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Aug 28, 2014)

Is there a north/south divide as to how this is viewed? When urban speaks it generally pronounces on things from a london/south viewpoint, there seem to be lots of posters from the north saying that there are particular circumstances in northern communities that don't necessarily translate across the UK as a whole?


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## J Ed (Aug 28, 2014)

PursuedByBears said:


> Is there a north/south divide as to how this is viewed? When urban speaks it generally pronounces on things from a london/south viewpoint, there seem to be lots of posters from the north saying that there are particular circumstances in northern communities that don't necessarily translate across the UK as a whole?



I don't think that anyone is arguing that, especially since multiple posters have mentioned similar cases in Peterborough and Cambridge.


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## William of Walworth (Aug 28, 2014)

And Oxford too.


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## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

..interesting R5 interview with a Pakistani woman from the area one of whose family members was jailed....from about 1hr 10m

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04f8997


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 28, 2014)

Fingers said:


> Nonces are not going to be too fussed about the colour of the kiddies they are noncing unless they are are full on racists and even then they are quite happy to employ massive hypocrisy as long as their mates don't find out about it and as long they get the opportunity to do some noncing.
> 
> Saying that, a  local London Hitler enthusiast is quite happy to indulge in his indiscretions but does not want his Nazi mates to know about it (or care about it)
> 
> ...


Paedophiles prefer Blond, Blue eyed boys, probably the same for girl victims, and these creeps are fully capable of being Racist.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> Paedophiles prefer Blond, Blue eyed boys, probably the same for girl victims, and these creeps are fully capable of being Racist.



 

_'If only you were blonde with blue eyes i'd be enjoying this so much more'_


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

Fingers is spot on when he talks about the barriers brown girls and boys face in disclosing abuse. Particularly because, as is commonly understood, abuse is often carried out by someone known to the person and their family. I don't think abuse about skin colour at all. It's more about access,  vulnerability and it the scum think they can get away with it.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Fingers is spot on when he talks about the barriers brown girls and boys face in disclosing abuse. Particularly because, as is commonly understood, abuse is often carried out by someone known to the person and their family. I don't think abuse about skin colour at all. It's more about access,  vulnerability and it the scum think they can get away with it.


Excellent...have been trying to think how to phrase that and you have done it brilliantly


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I agree but we have to answers when faced with the statistics show a disproportionate amount of Pakistani men are involved in this type of crime. I have suggested why I think this is. If we ignore this then the right will have a field day with it.


A disproportionate amount of perpetrators of this type of crime are men. Why is their race deemed important but their gender irrelevant?


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## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

.....aceess and vulnerability is like arguing about why a bank robber knocks off a building society instead of a bank...the isssue is why is the robbery commissioned in the first instance...what creates the "demand"...

.…the idea that the perpetrators of these crimes do so in a cultural vacuum insulated from a society drenched in sexualised images of overwhelmingly white girls, in which little girls are sold t-shirts emblazoned with "Porn Star", let alone the interent generally......come off it ... what message is that sending....


..and ftr...


However, evidence presented to us suggests that there is a model of localised grooming of Pakistani-heritage men targeting young White girls.

This must be acknowledged by official agencies, who we were concerned to hear in some areas of particular community tension, had reportedly been slow to draw attention to the issue for fear of affecting community cohesion.

House of Commons Home Affairs Committee
Child sexual exploitation and the response to localised grooming
Second Report of Session 2013–14

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/68i.pdf


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## likesfish (Aug 28, 2014)

Think theres a lot more criminals than just the five that got nicked something went really  really wrong in rotherham.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> A disproportionate amount of perpetrators of this type of crime are men. Why is their race deemed important but their gender irrelevant?


I'm not suggesting gender isn't irrelevant. But we are talking about race. Feel free to open up a discussion about gender if you wish.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

spliff said:


> Shaun Wright has quit the Labour Party but remains South Yorkshire's PCC.


one down, one to go


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## brogdale (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I'm not suggesting gender isn't irrelevant. But we are talking about race. Feel free to open up a discussion about gender if you wish.



Are "we" talking about race?

A rare moment on MSM this morning with R4's "Today" programme interviewing a woman of Pakistani origin who felt able to discuss aspects of Pakistani culture that might engender abusive attitudes towards (young) vulnerable girls/women including those in their own 'community'. Yet again though, there appeared to be little consideration of the cultural drivers behind the wilful and dangerous disregard of the victims of CSE prevalent within the local state/police charged with their protection.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Had a lengthy conversation with my mate last night who's Asian (of Sri Lankan heritage) he argued in general Pakistani culture is misogynistic. He also suggested if we can say the met is institutionally racist we can say the same about the Pakistani community . My issue with this is this entire debate about culture is quite offensive. I readily accept misogynistic attitudes exist in the Pakistani community as it does throughout society. I accept its degrees of too. But what drove these men was sex, power and vulnerability. I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this. Secondly why aren't we having this debate about white attitudes and the high level peado rings. In fact such a debate arguably takes the heat off the states failings. We need to be focusing why these girls were in the position they were and why the police and local authority ignored the girls.


----------



## dolly's gal (Aug 28, 2014)

is anyone actually buying the excuse the police and other authorities have come up with, in that they let what was going on happen because they thought intervening would be construed as racist? because that reeks of extreme bullshit to me


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> _'If only you were blonde with blue eyes i'd be enjoying this so much more'_


Race certainly can come into these exploitiv cases, look at where dirty old men go for Sex Tourism, Thailand, not Africa, look at where Liberated White Middle-age women go to find love and express heir sexuality, AFRICA. Two different continents.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 28, 2014)

Smokeandsteam said:


> What are you going on about?


The racialisation of crime and the media's focus on race with regards to this issue is reminiscent of the mugging scare. That's all. Keep up.

What about the victims?


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> A disproportionate amount of perpetrators of this type of crime are men. Why is their race deemed important but their gender irrelevant?



Why?

Because there is no allegation that men are getting away with this type of crime because investigators are frightened of appearing misogynistic.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 28, 2014)

Perhaps some of my detractors agree with Daniel Hannan?


> Her case was a grisly reminder that “anti-racism” has little to do with advancing the interests of people who are not white. Rather, it’s a kind of status badge – a way of signalling what kind of person you are. The fact that your policies might have monstrous consequences for ethnic minorities is secondary.
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...herhams-children-were-victims-of-anti-racism/


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## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

dolly's gal said:


> is anyone actually buying the excuse the police and other authorities have come up with, in that they let what was going on happen because they thought intervening would be construed as racist? because that reeks of extreme bullshit to me



Well, the independent report said it was a factor.

It has also been suggested that it was a factor in other similar cases such as that in Derby.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 28, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> That's not fair, he's not saying no one else rapes/grooms.


No? How do you know that? More importantly, why the media's emphasis on 'race'? This is about male attitudes to women and children and it cuts across _all_ cultures.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 28, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> The thing is though in certain parts of the country at that time young black people were the majority perpetrators of street robbery.
> 
> In other areas the majority were white .
> 
> The most sensible conclusion was that as most robberies involve multiple perpetrators was that it was peer based.


Which leads to the inevitable and _flawed_ conclusion that black people are genetically predisposed to criminality. You're familiar with racial profiling. Right?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I'm not suggesting gender isn't irrelevant. But we are talking about race. Feel free to open up a discussion about gender if you wish.


But child sex abuse isn't a problem exclusive to men from Pakistan. Nor is Paedophile gangs. So why should their race  be 'questioned' but Jimmy Savile's race not? Can you see the trap you're falling into here?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

dolly's gal said:


> is anyone actually buying the excuse the police and other authorities have come up with, in that they let what was going on happen because they thought intervening would be construed as racist? because that reeks of extreme bullshit to me


I guess no black man was arrested for anything in the last ten years.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Why?
> 
> Because there is no allegation that men are getting away with this type of crime because investigators are frightened of appearing misogynistic.


So why did Jimmy Savile get away with it?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

...we covered off the Jimmy Savile point a few pages back.....urban75 is across it...!


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## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So why did Jimmy Savile get away with it?



Well it wasn't because he was white.

It was to do with his powerful position.


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## likesfish (Aug 28, 2014)

Look at who got locked up they didnt have money or power or connections but they were all of pakistani orgins.

Of course race is going to play a part especially if people were claiming its  racist to claim pakistani nonce  gangs were targeting white girls.

The offical  report makes it clear people were reluctant to deal with it because it sounds like old fashioned white slavery myths racist bollocks


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## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> But child sex abuse isn't a problem exclusive to men from Pakistan. Nor is Paedophile gangs. So why should their race  be 'questioned' but Jimmy Savile's race not? Can you see the trap you're falling into here?



You’re falling into a trap.

No one denies white men are paedophiles or there are white paedophile gangs.

But are Pakistani men statistically more likely to commit gang-related crimes of sexual exploitation and brutal sexual slavery than, say, white men?

If so, why (and what is to be done about it?)

I don’t know the answer either of these questions by the way.


----------



## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So why did Jimmy Savile get away with it?


You are alleging he got away with it because he was a man and investigators were afraid of being construed as sexist for investigating a man?

A lot of bad reasoning being thrown around here.



dolly's gal said:


> is anyone actually buying the excuse the police and other authorities have come up with, in that they let what was going on happen because they thought intervening would be construed as racist? because that reeks of extreme bullshit to me



Of course not, but to be fair, it doesn't seem the police and civil authorities are actually saying this themselves, contrary to the suggestions of the media reporting of this case.

Useful to read the relevant sections of the independent inquiry report.


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## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

As far as the whole race thing goes I think this: that people who wish to behave in ways that the law disallows will find ways to get around those laws. These men used the authorities fear of being labelled as racist as a way to carry on their behaviours.

I think the impact of that may be that less Pakistani/Indian/Asian men were investigated for these crimes. That all of this has come to light now, in this way must be having a terrible effect on those communities and be a field day for racists. So really, the police, social services and council have brought this on those communities as well as those girls by not doing their job in the first place.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Well it wasn't because he was white.
> 
> It was to do with his powerful position.


His powerful position and his race are unconnected? 

Seems odd to racialise one crime but not the other.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> You’re falling into a trap.
> 
> No one denies white men are paedophiles or there are white paedophile gangs.
> 
> ...


I'm falling into no trap. Statistically men are more likely to commit this crime than women. Finding out which race are the worst offenders doesn't solve the problem. It just shifts focus from one group onto another.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I'm not suggesting gender isn't irrelevant. But we are talking about race. Feel free to open up a discussion about gender if you wish.


And there lies the problem...1400 kids abused by asian men and you discuss race, 600 or so children abused by saville, dozens by rolf harris, dozens by clifford, dozens by hall, hundreds by cyril smith...all white men, and no discussion of race takes place...why is that?
Oh yeah I forgot...its an issue of race cos you say so cos you somewhere that pakistani men are disproportionately involved.
Screw facts, screw reality...just spout shit with no proof and scream pc gone mad at anyone who disagrees.
The issue is not race...it is the abuse of children ffs


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## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm falling into no trap. Statistically men are more likely to commit this crime than women. Finding out which race are the worst offenders doesn't solve the problem. It just shifts focus from one group onto another.



I’m not sure what your argument is.

The independent report said race was a factor. If you disagree then it’s up to you to say why and then take it up with Professor Jay, not me.

By the way, you've still not answered my questions.


----------



## dolly's gal (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Well, the independent report said it was a factor.
> 
> It has also been suggested that it was a factor in other similar cases such as that in Derby.



the independent report said it was a factor based on discussions with the police and other agencies though. ergo that conclusion was drawn because the police involved said it was a factor. which in my mind, reeks of bullshit.

since when have the police cared about being construed as racist? if they gave one single fuck about that their stop and search stats wouldn't be as they are.

furthermore, if they were concerned about community cohesion, why did they allow 1,400 kids to be abused. were those children/their parents not part of that same community?

nah, it's a convenient excuse, an afterthought if you will...


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## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

dolly's gal said:


> the independent report said it was a factor based on discussions with the police and other agencies though. ergo that conclusion was drawn because the police involved said it was a factor. which in my mind, reeks of bullshit.QUOTE]
> 
> The relevant part of the Jay's findings was also based on interviews with front-line social workers.


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## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

I think race is an issue here, that race has caused the police to behave differently towards these paedophiles and so not catch them despite a lot of people giving them a reason to investigate.

I think that's why there is such a massive amount of crimes here. That these paedophiles were allowed to operate with impunity because of a fear of being branded as racist.


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

dolly's gal said:


> the independent report said it was a factor based on discussions with the police and other agencies though. ergo that conclusion was drawn because the police involved said it was a factor. which in my mind, reeks of bullshit.
> 
> since when have the police cared about being construed as racist? if they gave one single fuck about that their stop and search stats wouldn't be as they are.
> 
> ...



The relevant part of the report was based on interviews with front-line social workers.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

bmd said:


> I think race is an issue here, that race has caused the police to behave differently towards these paedophiles and so not catch them despite a lot of people giving them a reason to investigate.
> 
> I think that's why there is such a massive amount of crimes here. That these paedophiles were allowed to operate with impunity because of a fear of being branded as racist.



I don't buy it. They didn't give a fuck about those children. Many people have quoted here saying the police treated the victims (fucking hate that terminology) with contempt.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 28, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> No? How do you know that? More importantly, why the media's emphasis on 'race'? This is about male attitudes to women and children and it cuts across _all_ cultures.



because i didn't say that no-one else rapes or grooms, that's how you know. and as for the media's emphasis on 'race', that's obvious. my emphasis was on a cultural issue.



nino_savatte said:


> Which leads to the inevitable and _flawed_ conclusion that black people are genetically predisposed to criminality. You're familiar with racial profiling. Right?



no that is not an inevitable conclusion, so long as you are capable of keeping at least two parallel running thoughts in your head at one time. black people are, statistically, disproportionately represented amongst reported crimes - the black population is also more impoverished. we know that poverty impacts upon certain kinds of criminality, and the issue is clearly one of class rather than genetics.

your assumption seems to be that we have to cover over accurate social observations if they stray onto arenas of ethnicity or race because either you yourself are unable to take your conclusions in any direction other than a racist direction, or because you think that the rest of society is incapable of it. that's not true though in my experience, people are well capable of coping with a slightly more complicated assessment of the situation which goes beyond just aesthetically associating different ethnicities with different perceived activities. that is, so long as people are willing to have out the proper argument rather than just try and hush it under the carpet.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I don't buy it. They didn't give a fuck about those children. Many people have quoted here saying the police treated the victims (fucking hate that terminology) with contempt.


what term would you suggest instead?


----------



## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I don't buy it. They didn't give a fuck about those children. Many people have quoted here saying the police treated the victims (fucking hate that terminology) with contempt.


 
Absolutely. That too. The police couldn't have cared less, added to that the race thing, added to that the incompetence, added to that a whole list of other things. I don't think the race thing is the stand out problem here, not by a mile, but I think it is part of it.


----------



## dolly's gal (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> Of course not, but to be fair, it doesn't seem the police and civil authorities are actually saying this themselves, contrary to the suggestions of the media reporting of this case.
> 
> Useful to read the relevant sections of the independent inquiry report.





happie chappie said:


> The relevant part of the report was based on interviews with front-line social workers.



ok, to be fair, i haven't read the report, i shall read the relevant sections. i am glad though, that we all seem to be in agreement that the police did nothing about this because they are despicable arseholes, and once more they have shown themselves to be an institution that is completely at odds with the communities it is there to support.

rightly or wrongly, the social workers i have more empathy with, although of course as an institution, social services is fucked too...


----------



## quiquaquo (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Had a lengthy conversation with my mate last night who's Asian (of Sri Lankan heritage) he argued in general Pakistani culture is misogynistic. He also suggested if we can say the met is institutionally racist we can say the same about the Pakistani community . My issue with this is this entire debate about culture is quite offensive. I readily accept misogynistic attitudes exist in the Pakistani community as it does throughout society. I accept its degrees of too. But what drove these men was sex, power and vulnerability. I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this. Secondly why aren't we having this debate about white attitudes and the high level peado rings. In fact such a debate arguably takes the heat off the states failings. We need to be focusing why these girls were in the position they were and why the police and local authority ignored the girls.



You are unlikely to get an unbiased opinion from Sri Lankans, Indians or indeed Bangladeshi people for starters. British people of Pakistani origin are like most immigrant communities living in a past that is fast disappearing back home, one only has to look to British emigrants to Spain and Australia to see similar entrenched views. These same 'British Pakistanis' are further hindered by socio economic deprivation both historic and actual, racism and last but not least the fact that many originate from the most deprived parts of what is now Pakistan, namely Mirpur and Kashmir. Jokes about Mirpuris are sadly very common in the community.

Sure some Pakistanis are racist but probably no more so there their neighbours to the east with their entrenched caste system and accompanying religion. It should be remembered that the presence of large numbers of Muslims and Christians across the sub continent results from an historical attempt to leave the iniquity of the caste system.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat multiplicity of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing _that culture and race are actually now one and the same._ So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that:



> highlighted that Asian girls were being sexually exploited where authorities were failing to identify or support them. They were most vulnerable to men from their own communities who manipulated cultural norms to prevent them from reporting their abuse.



actually helps disentangle this race/culture nonsense as it shows that a) they believe that there does exist cultural norms among certain (asian) communities that do help paedos in their activity and b) that these norms are also_ internally directed_ - that asian children are also victims - thus removing the race angle and properly replacing it with the culture angle.

And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani people, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be to racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.

Many of those who are arguing this had nothing to do with race are doing so with the best of intentions but doing so on dodgy grounds that assume when the racial aspect is properly dispensed with then the cultural aspect must necessarily go too - as race = culture. That's worrying and suggests that the far-right and racists have won a large part of their battle.

(I really am going to try and keep quiet until i've finished the report now)


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

As for the gang argument...max clifford, saville, hall, harris, glitter, jonathan kingplus countless others under investigation were all known to each other via the bbc...what is that if not a gang of white men abusing tousands of children?
But is that an issue of race...is it fuck...this is gonna end up with racist attacks and abuse going through the roof against any asian men...I am not looking forward to going back to school next week ... its can be difficult enough being a mixed race bloke working in a primary school but this reaction re asian men being a problem is going to make it worse. 
Child abuse is the issue here and it is being trivialised by people insisting that this is a race thing and making up bullshit to fit their narrative


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> Sure some Pakistanis are racist but probably no more so there their neighbours to the east with their entrenched caste system and accompanying religion. It should be remembered that the presence of large numbers of Muslims and Christians across the sub continent results from an attempt to leave the iniquity of the caste system.


i thought it was because india was a large and not entirely homogenous country. out of 1.2bn people there may be 1m or even 100m xians but they'll still be dwarfed by the number of hindus.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I’m not sure what your argument is.
> 
> The independent report said race was a factor. If you disagree then it’s up to you to say why and then take it up with Professor Jay, not me.
> 
> By the way, you've still not answered my questions.


Which questions?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

dolly's gal said:


> the independent report said it was a factor based on discussions with the police and other agencies though. ergo that conclusion was drawn because the police involved said it was a factor. which in my mind, reeks of bullshit.
> 
> since when have the police cared about being construed as racist? if they gave one single fuck about that their stop and search stats wouldn't be as they are.
> 
> ...




...well you are flat out wrong on this issue .......short memories here...has everyone forgotten this :




> Channel 4 has been forced to pull a documentary, which shows Asian men in Bradford grooming young white girls for sex, after local police claimed the programme could spark race riots in the city.
> 
> The broadcaster agreed to postpone Edge of the City , produced by Chameleon TV, which was due to air yesterday (20 May) at 21.00 after discussions with West Yorkshire Police.
> 
> ...


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Which questions?



In Post 322


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## quiquaquo (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i thought it was because india was a large and not entirely homogenous country. out of 1.2bn people there may be 1m or even 100m xians but they'll still be dwarfed by the number of hindus.



There are at least two states in India with about 90% Christian population.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> There are at least two states in India with about 90% Christian population.


----------



## quiquaquo (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


>



Mizoram and Nagaland are around 90% Christian. Fact.


----------



## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> You are unlikely to get an unbiased opinion from Sri Lankans, Indians or indeed Bangladeshi people for starters. British people of Pakistani origin are like most immigrant communities living in a past that is fast disappearing back home, one only has to look to British emigrants to Spain and Australia to see similar entrenched views. These same 'British Pakistanis' are further hindered by socio economic deprivation both historic and actual, racism and last but not least the fact that many originate from the most deprived parts of what is now Pakistan, namely Mirpur and Kashmir. Jokes about Mirpuris are sadly very common in the community.
> 
> Sure some Pakistanis are racist but probably no more so there their neighbours to the east with their entrenched caste system and accompanying religion. It should be remembered that the presence of large numbers of Muslims and Christians across the sub continent results from an historical attempt to leave the iniquity of the caste system.



It should also be remembered that Islamic and Christian imperialism also had a fair bit to do with that.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat plurality of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing _that culture and race are actually now one and the same._ So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes. One reason why I was pleased to hear the (self-identified) Pakistani woman interviewed on R4 this morning talking about aspects of culture that might help to explain such abusive attitudes towards girls/women amongst some sections of the Pakistani community.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> what term would you suggest instead?



I don't have an answer. Survivor doesn't sit comfortably either. I don't think people should be defined by abuse but I think it's up to the person how they want to describe themselves, if at all. That's a different discussion tho.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> Mizoram and Nagaland are around 90% Christian. Fact.


mizoram: population 1.016m (2012); nagaland: 2.275m (2012)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I don't have an answer. Survivor doesn't sit comfortably either. I don't think people should be defined by abuse but I think it's up to the person how they want to describe themselves, if at all. That's a different discussion tho.


offendee or offended perhaps.


----------



## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat plurality of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing _that culture and race are actually now one and the same._ So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that actually helps disentangle this race/culture nonsense as it shows that a) they believe that there does a exist cultural norms among certain (asian) communities that do help paedos in their activity and b) that these norms are also internally directed - that asian children are alos victims - thus removing the race angle and properly replacing it with the culture angle.
> 
> And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani men, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.
> 
> ...


 
Such a thoughtful, well-informed and informative post. This hit home in so many ways.


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 28, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> No? How do you know that? More importantly, why the media's emphasis on 'race'? This is about male attitudes to women and children and it cuts across _all_ cultures.


Why are you asking _me_ about the media?


----------



## quiquaquo (Aug 28, 2014)

There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.


which community springs first to your mind?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> But are Pakistani men statistically more likely to commit gang-related crimes of sexual exploitation and brutal sexual slavery than, say, white men?
> 
> If so, why (and what is to be done about it?)



It's revealing that you say "if so why (and what is to be done about it)" and you didn't say "if not why (and what is to be done with white men about it)" isn't it?


----------



## quiquaquo (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> which community springs first to your mind?



The majority White community of course. Were Savile and the others Pakistani?


----------



## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.



Are you suggesting the mere discussion of child sexual abuse in the Pakistani community is racist?

What 'community' first springs to your mind as most associated with child abuse?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> There's a racist subtext here that's rotten to the core. Sure there are a lot of scum in so called Pakistani Community as in any community but as regards child abuse they are hardly the community that first springs to mind.



Quite possibly, but it serves no-one well to ignore the fact that, within the ambit of her report, Jay found that most perpetrators were of Pakistani origin. That's not racist or a sub-text.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> The majority White community of course. Were Savile and the others Pakistani?


but that in itself's a bit dodge as "white" might be polish, irish, or italian. it's like saying asian, which might be turkish or might be yakut.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Aug 28, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> The racialisation of crime and the media's focus on race with regards to this issue is reminiscent of the mugging scare. That's all. Keep up.
> 
> ?


 
No. It isn't reminiscent at all. For reasons which have already been explained. Grow up.


----------



## quiquaquo (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but that in itself's a bit dodge as "white" might be polish, irish, or italian. it's like saying asian, which might be turkish or might be yakut.



Deflection.


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It's revealing that you say "if so why (and what is to be done about it)" and you didn't say "if not why (and what is to be done with white men about it)" isn't it?



Why is it revealing? I could rephrase it if you like but you still haven't answered the question.

The Rotherham report specifically mentions Pakistani men. The cases in Derby et al almost exclusively involve Pakistani men.

Let's turn it round. Are you saying that race is totally irrelevant in these cases?

If so, that's not what Jay's report says, certainly in relation to Rotherham. She's the expert in this field. She's acknowledged as being independent.

So, again, you need to say why Jay's report is wrong and then take it up with her.

In the interim, just answer the questions.


----------



## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> Deflection.


This is about Rotherham. 

You're the one deflecting by talking about Savile.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> And there lies the problem...1400 kids abused by asian men and you discuss race, 600 or so children abused by saville, dozens by rolf harris, dozens by clifford, dozens by hall, hundreds by cyril smith...all white men, and no discussion of race takes place...why is that?
> Oh yeah I forgot...its an issue of race cos you say so cos you somewhere that pakistani men are disproportionately involved.
> Screw facts, screw reality...just spout shit with no proof and scream pc gone mad at anyone who disagrees.
> The issue is not race...it is the abuse of children ffs



ok, no-one actually brought you the stats so i'll go through them here:

the white population makes up 87.1% of the population, the 'Asian' population of Britain makes up around 6.9% and of that the Pakistani community makes up around 1.9%. when it comes to general sex offender stats, they match up reasonably proportionately (81.9% of sex offenders are white, 5.6 'Asian'). however when it comes to grooming gangs, 39% of the offenders are white and 26% 'Asian'. though the table i include below includes a majority of 'undefined' within that category, if we collate it with other reports such as the Times report from 2011 we can see that within those numbers, the great bulk are of Pakistani origin ['of the 56 offenders convicted since 1997 for crimes relating to on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16, three were white, 53 were Asian of which 50 were Muslim, most were from the British Pakistani community']. 











http://ceop.police.uk/Publications/

i bring it up just because people have referenced these stats a few times now but no-one's actually put down the figures.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 28, 2014)

While race is a small part of it the major problem is that the police and the authorities seem to have taken stupid pills and not done their jobs.
It can't be that difficult to just to interview one of the assailants and mount a few extra patrols where they hung around. Even if you can't get a conviction you could at least scare them off.
   It is not like the gangs were powerful or influential.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> Deflection.


by no means. when i hear about child abuse i don't immediately consider the hue of the perpetrator's skin. nonce is nonce whether white black brown or green


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Why is it revealing? I could rephrase it if you like but you still haven't answered the question.
> 
> The Rotherham report specifically mentions Pakistani men. The cases in Derby et al almost exclusively involve Pakistani men.
> 
> ...


Can you list the other crimes where you discuss the importance of the race of the perpetrators please? Or is it just child rape by Pakistani men that falls into this category? 

As to your daft question, are we talking globally here? Or just here in the UK? Was the race of the men on Pitcairn relevant to their offending? Because I never saw it mentioned once.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 28, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> While race is a small part of it the major problem is that the police and the authorities seem to have taken stupid pills and not done their jobs.
> It can't be that difficult to just to interview one of the assailants and mount a few extra patrols where they hung around. Even if you can't get a conviction you could at least scare them off.
> It is not like the gangs were powerful or influential.


 The report does not suggest anything of the sort. Far from citing stupidity, Jay makes plain that the refusal to pursue proceedings on behalf of the abused girls/women was deliberate and wilful. Those decision also emerge from a culture that needs to be understood and challenged.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Can you list the other crimes where you discuss the importance of the race of the perpetrators please? Or is it just child rape by Pakistani men that falls into this category?
> 
> As to your daft question, are we talking globally here? Or just here in the UK? Was the race of the men on Pitcairn relevant to their offending? Because I never saw it mentioned once.


The _culture _of child rape and abuse on the Island was.


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Can you list the other crimes where you discuss the importance of the race of the perpetrators please? Or is it just child rape by Pakistani men that falls into this category?
> 
> As to your daft question, are we talking globally here? Or just here in the UK? Was the race of the men on Pitcairn relevant to their offending? Because I never saw it mentioned once.



I think we both know we're talking about the UK, primarily England.

Race is relevant because Jay specifically mentions it.

The question's quite simple - do you disagree with what she says?

If not, the onus is on you to say why. You've still not done so.

Please do not avoid answering the question by asking another question.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Race is relevant because Jay specifically mentions it.


so that's the way the parameters of debate are framed here? on someone else's say-so?


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

In my opinion no-one could ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT and come to the conclusion that the only reason the Police didn't act was because they were afraid of being branded as racist, unless they were so obsessed with race that it inhibited  their ability to read and understand.

The Police didn't act for lot's and lots of reasons  - here's just a few :

it was 'consensual'
it was 'prostitution'
'they were asking for it'
'there were more important crimes affecting more important people'
some of the victims wouldn't co-operate
some of the victims wouldn't accept that they were victims of crime
some of the victims were unlikely to present well in Court
some of the victims might be easy to discredit in court
investigations were very likely to be be time and resource consuming
it didn't fall into the targeted initiatives to direct scarce resources at specific sorts of crime affecting more significant people
it was easier to set up a joint working party to meet occasionally to discuss how difficult it all is
it was easier to try refer the victims to other agencies
it was easier to close the file
hmmm, where I put that file...
because this is South Yorkshire Police


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> But child sex abuse isn't a problem exclusive to men from Pakistan. Nor is Paedophile gangs. So why should their race  be 'questioned' but Jimmy Savile's race not? Can you see the trap you're falling into here?


No I don't. You quoted my link to figures which was about the racial profile of offenders. I'm not suggesting child abuse is exclusive to Pakistani men. That's very clear from all of my posts


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so that's the way the parameters of debate are framed here? on someone else's say-so?



Why shouldn't it be? She's investigated the matter more than anyone on these Boards ever will.

She's independent. She's acknowledged as an expert in this matter. As far as I know no one has criticised her methodology or findings.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> In my opinion no-one could ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT and come to the conclusion that the only reason the Police didn't act was because they were afraid of being branded as racist, unless they were so obsessed with race that it inhibited  their ability to read and understand.
> 
> The Police didn't act for lot's and lots of reasons  - here's just a few :
> 
> ...


yeh. but this is urban. and few people here do reading the report.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> You are unlikely to get an unbiased opinion from Sri Lankans, Indians or indeed Bangladeshi people for starters. British people of Pakistani origin are like most immigrant communities living in a past that is fast disappearing back home, one only has to look to British emigrants to Spain and Australia to see similar entrenched views. These same 'British Pakistanis' are further hindered by socio economic deprivation both historic and actual, racism and last but not least the fact that many originate from the most deprived parts of what is now Pakistan, namely Mirpur and Kashmir. Jokes about Mirpuris are sadly very common in the community.
> 
> Sure some Pakistanis are racist but probably no more so there their neighbours to the east with their entrenched caste system and accompanying religion. It should be remembered that the presence of large numbers of Muslims and Christians across the sub continent results from an historical attempt to leave the iniquity of the caste system.


I didn't suggest I'd get an unbiased opinion from my friend. I disagreed with him. Isn't that clear in my post?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I think we both know we're talking about the UK, primarily England.
> 
> Race is relevant because Jay specifically mentions it.
> 
> ...


Simple Simon says put your hands on your head. I'm having a debate with you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I think we both know we're talking about the UK, primarily England.
> 
> Race is relevant because Jay specifically mentions it.
> 
> ...


just the one: could you name the paragraph you've taken this specific reference from? otherwise it's hard to say i agree.


----------



## dylanredefined (Aug 28, 2014)

brogdale said:


> The report does not suggest anything of the sort. Far from citing stupidity, Jay makes plain that the refusal to pursue proceedings on behalf of the abused girls/women was deliberate and wilful. Those decision also emerge from a culture that needs to be understood and challenged.



 Honestly it is hard to tell the difference from the outside. The authorities are told and do nothing either evil or stupid or both. Heads should role.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Why shouldn't it be? She's investigated the matter more than anyone on these Boards ever will.
> 
> She's independent. She's acknowledged as an expert in this matter. As far as I know no one has criticised her methodology or findings.


and you're saying she's framing it in terms of race.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> ok, no-one actually brought you the stats so i'll go through them here:
> 
> the white population makes up 87.1% of the population, the 'Asian' population of Britain makes up around 6.9% and of that the Pakistani community makes up around 1.9%. when it comes to general sex offender stats, they match up reasonably proportionately (81.9% of sex offenders are white, 5.6 'Asian'). however when it comes to grooming gangs, 39% of the offenders are white and 26% 'Asian'. though the table i include below includes a majority of 'undefined' within that category, if we collate it with other reports such as the Times report from 2011 we can see that within those numbers, the great bulk are of Pakistani origin ['of the 56 offenders convicted since 1997 for crimes relating to on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16, three were white, 53 were Asian of which 50 were Muslim, most were from the British Pakistani community'].
> 
> ...


Thanks. And the right are utilising these figures for their own agenda. Which is why we can't bury our heads in the sand when it comes to this. If we don't have an answer then the right will just shout the loudest. I have already explained why I think these figures exist. I'd also add the occupations of some of the offenders have helped provide a degree of cover. This has already been put forward by some commentators and I'd agree with this.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

yesterdays sun headline '1400 victims of the PC brigade'

we know the murdoch press is scum but using horrific widespread sexual abuse to fight for the right to call people wog is a new low.


----------



## articul8 (Aug 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.
> 
> Many of those who are arguing this had nothing to do with race are doing so with the best of intentions but doing so on dodgy grounds that assume when the racial aspect is properly dispensed with then the cultural aspect must necessarily go too - as race = culture. That's worrying and suggests that the far-right and racists have won a large part of their battle.



If race and culture have become synonymous we're in a very bad place, agreed, so problematising the easy equation of the two is very important.  (Wondering whether the concept of ethnicity has become an enabling vehicle for conflating the two?)

At the same time, obviously, cultural characteristics don't float entirely free from their situatedness in particular contexts - geographies, histories, class and I suppose biology even - factors which in some sense condition cultural development, even as they are at the same time culturally mediated.  So you can't say race and culture are ever fully separate (except at a significant level of analytical abstraction) even if they are non-identical.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

articul8 said:


> If race and culture have become synonymous we're in a very bad place, agreed, so problematising the easy equation of the two is very important.  (Wondering whether the concept of ethnicity has become an enabling vehicle for conflating the two?)
> 
> At the same time, obviously, cultural characteristics don't float entirely free from their situatedness in particular contexts - geographies, histories, class and I suppose biology even - factors which in some sense condition cultural development, even as they are at the same time culturally mediated.  So you can't say race and culture are ever fully separate (except at a significant level of analytical abstraction) even if they are non-identical.


Let's talk _politics for now though _prof.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Had a lengthy conversation with my mate last night who's Asian (of Sri Lankan heritage) he argued in general Pakistani culture is misogynistic. He also suggested if we can say the met is institutionally racist we can say the same about the Pakistani community . My issue with this is this entire debate about culture is quite offensive. I readily accept misogynistic attitudes exist in the Pakistani community as it does throughout society. I accept its degrees of too. But what drove these men was sex, power and vulnerability. I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this. Secondly why aren't we having this debate about white attitudes and the high level peado rings. In fact such a debate arguably takes the heat off the states failings. We need to be focusing why these girls were in the position they were and why the police and local authority ignored the girls.




the police and local auhtorities ignored them, because they are also part of a misogynistic society. once these children had been typed as worthless and then expected to manage their own lives as though they were adult women, then they were on their own, in the hands of the men who wanted to fuck them. the shit they were going through, coercion, threat to their families, physical abuse, would still be abuse that most adult women wouldn't have been able to deal with, without help, but once these children were labelled as making adult decisions they were left to be abused.

the attitudes towards female children from working class estates, that they were considered scum, but also an attitude that they grow up faster than 'proper' m/c girls. so they were labelled as adult when they neither were, nor should have been. but also the fact that once labelled as making adult decisions, they were on their own. this shows that misogynistic culture is influenced by some nasty assumptions made about w/c girls. 

if you need any further proof of the levels of institutional misogeny then consider why this level of abuse was deemed acceptable towards someone deemed to be capable of making adult choices. is it Ok to offer no support to 'adult women' who are being sexually and physically abused? to ignore reports that women are being forced into sexual activity - that's rape, btw. 

and a lot of misogynists do commit offenses against women. they may not be getting their kicks out of raping teenage girls, but don't try to label the misogyny in this case as something seperate to the misogyny that leads men to commit other acts against women that are designed to give them a thrill at the expense of girls and women. it's still getting their jollies out male power over females. whether it's curb crawling girls walking home from school, DV, street harassment. and it's all routinely ignored by authorities. 

and i'm trying to work my way through this idea, but I think it plays a big part in why men from a culture that expresses it's misogeny through covering and controlling it's women - supposedly to protect them from other men, would look at women who aren't covered and controlled. 

but also the naked female flesh plastered over newspapers, magazines, ad posters. acceptable as sexuality on display to sell shit. but a slag who is asking for it walking down the street. we give out huge mixed messages about the role of women and women's sexuality, and particularly the sexuality of teenage girls. mix this with the different message they got about pakistani women, and this mix can be twisted into a belief that girls that aren't covered up are available. 

this can't just be about what is wrong with the way these men and their society throught about women, but also about how this relates to the way british society treats women as well. but that won't happen.


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> and you're saying she's framing it in terms of race.



I didn't say she framed the entire debate in terms of race. But she says it was a factor. Are you saying she is wrong in coming to that conclusion?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> I didn't say she framed the entire debate in terms of race. But she says it was a factor. Are you saying she is wrong in coming to that conclusion?


which paragraph are you referring to?


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Simple Simon says put your hands on your head. I'm having a debate with you.



I've no idea what the Simple Simon reference is about. I'm more than happy to engage in the debate with you. That's what these Boards are for, after all.


----------



## happie chappie (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> which paragraph are you referring to?



Sorry - I've really got to go to work. Not ducking out - but need to be somewhere else and I'm very late. Apologies.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> In my opinion no-one could ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT and come to the conclusion that the only reason the Police didn't act was because they were afraid of being branded as racist, unless they were so obsessed with race that it inhibited  their ability to read and understand.
> 
> The Police didn't act for lot's and lots of reasons  - here's just a few :
> 
> ...



Indeed, feminist scholars have long documented the failure of the police to take rape complainants seriously. This was really bought to the public's attention following the police cock-up in relation to John Worboys, the London cabbie who was able to rape and sexually abuse over 100 women because police didn't take victims seriously. In Rotherham, London and in countless other cases women are double victims of misogyny: first and foremost at the hands of the violent misogynists that assault them and secondly by the authorities that don't take their complaints seriously.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> In my opinion no-one could ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT and come to the conclusion that the only reason the Police didn't act was because they were afraid of being branded as racist, unless they were so obsessed with race that it inhibited  their ability to read and understand.
> 
> The Police didn't act for lot's and lots of reasons  - here's just a few :
> 
> ...



and a lot of that list comes down to 'because they were female'. and some in particular- 'because they were w/c female'


----------



## articul8 (Aug 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Let's talk _politics _prof.



I suppose the first step is to resist the idea that this is evidence of "the" (singular) Pakistani/muslim community who [have been allowed, by liberal authorities, to] exploit and abuse "white" girls in general - and which must be tackled by ramping up attacks on Pakistani/musims and their values, and by making the authorities less liberal.  Which would seem for many - following a tabloid led popularist right-wing narrative - a "common sense" response.  But one that the far right could also capitalise on.

Under critical scrutiny of any real sort the distinction breaks down.  The values of Pakistani/muslim men aren't necessarily values shared or approved of by Pakistani/muslim women.  There is not one "Pakistani", let alone "muslim" community in Britain but a diverse set of ethnic and religious  groupings.  The girls weren't just white girls in general, they were mostly white working class girls in the "care" of the state at some level but also included some muslim girls it appears, who dare not speak out.	The "problem" of the authorities was not just that they thought they'd be called racists for acting, but because they didn't value or believe the victims etc, and people in a position of authority who were embedded in institutions which had a particular reason to take certain other institutionally privileged individuals as "representing" a particular community.

In terms of framing a political response you'd be looking to contest how mutually reinforcing structures of authority had an institution blindness or complicity with regard to failing to challenge abuses of power, what kind of new alliances could reframe the debate in order to contest the form of cultural and political authority as such rather than to ask the authorities to do a "better job" in policing a society based on class and ethnic division.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Indeed, feminist scholars have long documented the failure of the police to take rape complainants seriously. This was really bought to the public's attention following the police cock-up in relation to John Worboys, the London cabbie who was able to rape and sexually abuse over 100 women because police didn't take victims seriously. In Rotherham, London and in countless other cases women are double victims of misogyny: first and foremost at the hands of the violent misogynists that assault them and secondly by the authorities that don't take their complaints seriously.



campaigners as well as 'scholars'. or even just 'feminists' or 'women' or 'people'. it's not just those with a perceived authority who have been discussing this, complaining about this, shouting about this and crying about it, because every time there's a big case linked to failure to listen to women/girls, there's a shitload of handwringing. a lot of discussion, changes in procedures. but nothing about the fact that the underlying problem is a belief that women lie about rape all the time. and nothing is being done about that underlying problem of a misogenistic culture, and everything is being done to aviod talking about it and blaming that misogensitic culture for the shit that women go through.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Sorry - I've really got to go to work. Not ducking out - but need to be somewhere else and I'm very late. Apologies.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> campaigners as well as 'scholars'. or even just 'feminists' or 'women' or 'people'. it's not just those with a perceived authority who have been discussing this, complaining about this, shouting about this and crying about it, because every time there's a big case linked to failure to listen to women/girls, there's a shitload of handwringing. a lot of discussion, changes in procedures. but nothing about the fact that the underlying problem is a belief that women lie about rape all the time. and nothing is being done about that underlying problem of a misogenistic culture, and everything is being done to aviod talking about it and blaming that misogensitic culture for the shit that women go through.



Very true, all of that. I used an unduly narrow term there.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> and a lot of that list comes down to 'because they were female'. and some in particular- 'because they were w/c female'


Without question there is class prejudice across society. If these attacks had been on kids from middle class families living in the leafy suburbs the police and authorities would have done more. Far more. This prejudice exists in the media too. Witness the hands across the nation for the mccanns... Yet if this had been a single parent off some council estate on benefits on holiday and left their kids they'd have been crucified. Same goes for nigella lawson and her use of coke... Coverage of her case was much different to say Danielle westbrook. It pisses me off and in this case it's resulted in the lives of these girls being fucked up and left to the perpetrators. Criminal proceedings need to be brought against these people who failed the girls. Full stop


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> You’re falling into a trap.
> 
> No one denies white men are paedophiles or there are white paedophile gangs.
> 
> ...




On the local radio this morning, they interviewed a Asian woman from Rotherham, she claimed that many many people in the local community knew what was going on, that there had been 'crisis' meetings in Mosques, etc about it, going by local media/social media, the atmosphere in Rotherham is volatile and the far right are going to try to stir things up, etc.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Without question there is class prejudice across society. If these attacks had been on kids from middle class families living in the leafy suburbs the police and authorities would have done more. Far more. This prejudice exists in the media too. Witness the hands across the nation for the mccanns... Yet if this had been a single parent off some council estate on benefits on holiday and left their kids they'd have been crucified. Same goes for nigella lawson and her use of coke... Coverage of her case was much different to say Danielle westbrook. It pisses me off and in this case it's resulted in the lives of these girls being fucked up and left to the perpetrators. Criminal proceedings need to be brought against these people who failed the girls. Full stop




criminal proceedings would be a start, but won't stop abuse in the future unless we address the *MISOGYNY* in our society. which i believe i've discussed quite a bit in one of the posts above


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Very true, all of that. I used an unduly narrow term there.



i don't normally like nitpicking stuff like that, but in this discussion, I think ti's important. when the underlying problem is that women's/girl#s voices aren't being heard when they report their own expereinces.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> i don't normally like nitpicking stuff like that, but in this discussion, I think ti's important. when the underlying problem is that women's/girl#s voices aren't being heard when they report their own expereinces.



You were absolutely right to point that out.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> and a lot of that list comes down to 'because they were female'. and some in particular- 'because they were w/c female'


Absolutely - and not simply (mostly) working class but from particularly disadvantaged parts of it. As I quoted from the report up-thread :



> 5.16 - Many of the case files we read described children who had troubled family backgrounds, with a history of domestic violence, parental addiction, and in some cases serious mental health problems. A significant number of the victims had a history of child neglect and/or sexual abuse when they were younger. Some had a desperate need for attention and affection.





toggle said:


> i don't normally like nitpicking stuff like that, but in this discussion, I think ti's important. when the underlying problem is that women's/girl#s voices aren't being heard when they report their own expereinces.



That's perfectly true. Of course there were other cases where it wasn't the victims who reported things but who were referred by other agencies who had picked up signs of problems from the outside. And on the (seemingly rare) occasions that this was followed up some of them refused to co-operate. There was an interview with one victim on TV last night who said she hadn't understood what had happened to her until much later.

No-one would pretend these are easy matters to deal with. What is inexcusable about the Police response is that when the nature and scale of what had been going on was made clear to the Police, Council management and Council members in a series of reports and briefings between 2002 and 2006 they still failed to devote sufficient urgency to dealing with it. The Jay report lists a several pages of initiatives, meetings, working parties, policies. What's crystal clear is that these were not given any meaningful priority and in some cases this amounted to deliberate obstructionism.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> Paedophiles prefer Blond, Blue eyed boys, probably the same for girl victims, and these creeps are fully capable of being Racist.



And your evidence for this is...?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Fingers is spot on when he talks about the barriers brown girls and boys face in disclosing abuse.



Not helped, as both of us have mentioned earlier, by the fact that abuse of British Pakistani children by British Pakistani men doesn't sell as well as "Pakistani men rape white girls" in the media. 



> Particularly because, as is commonly understood, abuse is often carried out by someone known to the person and their family. I don't think abuse about skin colour at all. It's more about access,  vulnerability and it the scum think they can get away with it.



Absolutely. A lot of intra-familial abuse is as much about opportunity, as about power, and the "closeness" of a family can often make the reporting of abuse far more problematic than stranger abuse.  There doesn't even need to be a pre-existing vulnerability, because a determined abuser will engineer one, if necessary.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> ok, no-one actually brought you the stats so i'll go through them here:
> 
> the white population makes up 87.1% of the population, the 'Asian' population of Britain makes up around 6.9% and of that the Pakistani community makes up around 1.9%. when it comes to general sex offender stats, they match up reasonably proportionately (81.9% of sex offenders are white, 5.6 'Asian'). however when it comes to grooming gangs, 39% of the offenders are white and 26% 'Asian'. though the table i include below includes a majority of 'undefined' within that category, if we collate it with other reports such as the Times report from 2011 we can see that within those numbers, the great bulk are of Pakistani origin ['of the 56 offenders convicted since 1997 for crimes relating to on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16, three were white, 53 were Asian of which 50 were Muslim, most were from the British Pakistani community'].
> 
> ...


And who decides what counts as a grooming gang? No one refers to all groups of men involved as grooming gangs...that alone screws up these stats


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> And who decides what counts as a grooming gang? No one refers to all groups of men involved as grooming gangs...that alone screws up these stats


lies, damned lies, and ...


----------



## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

After readings the report it seems that the reason this is all about white girls is because Muslim/Pakistani girls are either too afraid, ashamed or unable to report their abuse. However, as common sense dictates and the report says, the abusers pick on girls from their own communities most often. 

So it would seem that Pakistani girls are not only being abused more often but that they are more vulnerable and receiving less help than even the white girls, which beggars belief really.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> Race certainly can come into these exploitiv cases, look at where dirty old men go for Sex Tourism, Thailand, not Africa, look at where Liberated White Middle-age women go to find love and express heir sexuality, AFRICA. Two different continents.



I think you need to understand the difference in the concepts or 'race' and 'culture'...I think you are erroneously using the two interchangeably.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Well, the independent report said it was a factor.
> 
> It has also been suggested that it was a factor in other similar cases such as that in Derby.



Sure, the Jay Report mentioned it as *a* factor.
Elements of the media, however, appear to be attempting to place that singular factor as the fundamental *reason* for the longevity of the abuse, when there's little or no evidence to sustain such a claim, as yet.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Well it wasn't because he was white.
> 
> It was to do with his powerful position.



And his position wasn't at all linked to the "acceptability" his whiteness bestowed on him in social circles from the '60s-onward?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Well it wasn't because he was white.
> 
> It was to do with his powerful position.




Can you not see just how disempowered those abused in this were/are?  Why can't you see the 'power' of the perpetrators in this case?


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> and a lot of misogynists do commit offenses against women. they may not be getting their kicks out of raping teenage girls, but don't try to label the misogyny in this case as something seperate to the misogyny that leads men to commit other acts against women that are designed to give them a thrill at the expense of girls and women. it's still getting their jollies out male power over females. whether it's curb crawling girls walking home from school, DV, street harassment. and it's all routinely ignored by authorities.



Misogyny is firmly ingrained in society-and it comes in many forms from the extreme to the subtle messages in the media. I think its a bit far reaching to suggest 'a lot of misogynists' commit offences. I don't doubt the examples you give but they are the far extreme of a very wide reaching scale


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Misogyny is firmly ingrained in society-and it comes in many forms from the extreme to the subtle messages in the media. I think its a bit far reaching to suggest 'a lot of misogynists' commit offences. I don't doubt the examples you give but they are the far extreme of a very wide reaching scale


if misogyny firmly engrained in society then a lot of misogynists will be committing offences.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> if misogyny firmly engrained in society then a lot of misogynists will be committing offences.




Well we can split hairs and start talking about what constitutes a 'lot'-but across the range of attitudes only a minority of people holding such views will go on to commit offences of the type quoted in my post.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> And who decides what counts as a grooming gang? No one refers to all groups of men involved as grooming gangs...that alone screws up these stats




Can you explain why exactly those stats are flawed?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

bmd said:


> After readings the report it seems that the reason this is all about white girls is because Muslim/Pakistani girls are either too afraid, ashamed or unable to report their abuse. However, as common sense dictates and the report says, the abusers pick on girls from their own communities most often.
> .



This is what I was trying to explain earlier.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Well we can split hairs and start talking about what constitutes a 'lot'-but across the range of attitudes only a minority of people holding such views will go on to commit offences of the type quoted in my post.


post number...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 28, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> The relevant part of the report was based on interviews with front-line social workers.



Who spoke about their *perceptions, *and about their* assumptions *about why those in positions of power appeared to do nothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Had a lengthy conversation with my mate last night who's Asian (of Sri Lankan heritage) he argued in general Pakistani culture is misogynistic. He also suggested if we can say the met is institutionally racist we can say the same about the Pakistani community . My issue with this is this entire debate about culture is quite offensive. I readily accept misogynistic attitudes exist in the Pakistani community as it does throughout society. I accept its degrees of too. But what drove these men was sex, power and vulnerability. I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this. Secondly why aren't we having this debate about white attitudes and the high level peado rings. In fact such a debate arguably takes the heat off the states failings. We need to be focusing why these girls were in the position they were and why the police and local authority ignored the girls.


oh dear


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> oh dear




Oh dear what?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh dear what?


oh dear how could you write that and think anyone would take you seriously?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I won't accept they did it because they were misogynistic because not all misogynists comitt crimes like this.


so racists who kill people can, iyo, only be motivated by racism if all racists do that sort of thing. oh dear oh dear oh dear


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Misogyny manifests itself in different ways. There isn't a one size fits all definition.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> oh dear how could you write that and think anyone would take you seriously?




'Anyone' who made you the spokesman for Urban?

I accept there exists misogynistic attitudes in the Pakistani community but not all misogynists go on to commit offences like gang grooming. It really is quite simple-not sure which part you're struggling with.

But im sure you'll pick through my posts-as you often do  on the occasions I post here-carry on mate. Im sure you will.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> 'Anyone' who made you the spokesman for Urban?
> 
> I accept there exists misogynistic attitudes in the Pakistani community but not all misogynists go on to commit offences like gang grooming. It really is quite simple-not sure which part you're struggling with.
> 
> But im sure you'll pick through my posts-as you often do  on the occasions I post here-carry on mate. Im sure you will.


it's perfectly simple. some people's beliefs motivate them to do things others with similar beliefs won't or don't. so someone can express their misogyny solely through sexist language while someone else who is misogynistic may beat or sexually assault women. saying that 'i don't think they did it because of x because not everyone who believes in x does that' is a fallacious argument and does not present you in a good light. if you can't see that then you're denser than i thought.

e2a: some people take their beliefs further than others, although they may be motivated by the same thing. eg the person who only puts up stickers for their group while other people go on demonstrations.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's perfectly simple. some people's beliefs motivate them to do things others with similar beliefs won't or don't. so someone can express their misogyny solely through sexist language while someone else who is misogynistic may beat or sexually assault women. saying that 'i don't think they did it because of x because not everyone who believes in x does that' is a fallacious argument and does not present you in a good light. if you can't see that then you're denser than i thought.



But its a fact. Not all racists kill people. Not all terrorists are muslims. Not all coppers are corrupt. etc etc

Thanks for the dense label-I feel all warm now. Now please go away. As always when I post and you home in on me I find it very tedious


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> But its a fact. Not all racists kill people. Not all terrorists are muslims. Not all coppers are corrupt. etc etc
> 
> Thanks for the dense label-I feel all warm now. Now please go away. As always when I post and you home in on me I find it very tedious


it's only tedious because you make it so. if you didn't need these things spelt out in words of one syllable then it might not be so dull.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> But its a fact. Not all racists kill people. Not all terrorists are muslims. Not all coppers are corrupt. etc etc



I agree. Let's not tar the nice misogynists with the same brush.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's only tedious because you make it so. if you didn't need these things spelt out in words of one syllable then it might not be so dull.




Youre till hurting over the stats on false allegations of rape arent you. You looked a complete and utter tool then and you do now. But carry on mate.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I agree. Let's not tar the nice misogynists with the same brush.




No lets not suggest the presence of misogynistic attitudes leads to gang rape.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Youre till hurting over the stats on false allegations of rape arent you. You looked a complete and utter tool then and you do now. But carry on mate.


no, i'm not "till hurting". i'm not bringing up an old beef with you. i raise this point because you've posted something unbelievably stupid and you don't seem to realise how daft it is.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Well we can split hairs and start talking about what constitutes a 'lot'-but across the range of attitudes only a minority of people holding such views will go on to commit offences of the type quoted in my post.



I'm not sure why you're surprised that hatred towards women frequently expresses itself in abusive and violent actions towards women.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> No lets not suggest the presence of misogynistic attitudes leads to gang rape.


oh dear oh dear. you're all over the fucking shop on this one.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> No lets not suggest the presence of misogynistic attitudes leads to gang rape.


Are you suggesting some rapists arent misogynists?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you suggesting some rapists arent misogynists?


he believes they're not motivated by misogyny. see my post 423.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

If you only consider certain types of offenders to constitute a "gang" but not others then the stats can easily be manipulated and are thereby flawed. 
No one talks about a "gang" of white men within show business grooming children...they speak of individual "perverts" ... this stat that is not open to manipulation shows and always has shown that child abusers are roughly the same percentage as their race within society. I find it amazing that you can not or will not see this very simple fact.
The manipulation of crime stats to suit racism is not new...in the 1970s "mugging" as a term was invented and a disproportionate number of afro carribean young men were charged with it while young white men were charged with robbery...this was to justify the abuse of black young men via the sus laws and stop and search procedures.
In the 1990s again it was claimed that young black men made up a hugely disproportionate number of muggers ... again white young men who committed the same crimes were charged with different crimes.
Very powerful organistions such as the police and councils pretend to be intimidated by anti racists, in order to wriggle out of their incompetence and inaction in this abuse issue and you and others want to discuss how pakistani men are more likely to be child abusers? Think about it...seriously, think

.





Grandma Death said:


> Can you explain why exactly those stats are flawed?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> he believes they're not motivated by misogyny. see my post 423.


It's a brutal violation asserting male power over women. How could it not be motivated by hatred?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> If you only consider certain types of offenders to constitute a "gang" but not others then the stats can easily be manipulated and are thereby flawed.
> No one talks about a "gang" of white men within show business grooming children...they speak of individual "perverts" ... this stat that is not open to manipulation shows and always has shown that child abusers are roughly the same percentage as their race within society. I find it amazing that you can not or will not see this very simple fact.
> The manipulation of crime stats to suit racism is not new...in the 1970s "mugging" as a term was invented and a disproportionate number of afro carribean young men were charged with it while young white men were charged with robbery...this was to justify the abuse of black young men via the sus laws and stop and search procedures.
> In the 1990s again it was claimed that young black men made up a hugely disproportionate number of muggers ... again white young men who committed the same crimes were charged with different crimes.
> ...


so it's class and context which allows you to define people as a gang - the bullingdon club in oxford not a gang, for example, while a similar body in nunhead would be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It's a brutal violation asserting male power over women. How could it not be motivated by hatred?


i don't get it either.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> so it's class and context which allows you to define people as a gang - the bullingdon club in oxford not a gang, for example, while a similar body in nunhead would be.



I do not understand your point....I do not mean this rudely...but I am a bit confused
I was answering a question about gangs from grandma death...my point was the police and other authorities are picking and choosing what constitutes a "grooming gang" and then stats claiming this proves pakistani men are more likely to commit this type of crime are thrown about as a fact...when in fact they are a manipulated statistic


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> I do not understand your point.
> I was answering a question about gangs from grandma death...my point was the police and other authorities are picking and choosing what constitutes a "grooming gang" and then stats claiming this proves pakistani men are more likely to commit this type of crime are thrown about as a fact...when in fact they are a manipulated statistic


yes, i was agreeing with you and casting this into a wider context with the bullingdon club / gang thing, expanding your point rather than differing with it.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> No one talks about a "gang" of white men within show business grooming children...they speak of individual "perverts" ...



..er.....no they don't...


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Can you explain why exactly those stats are flawed?



I'll have a go.

Because there are no adequate mechanisms for collecting/reporting the figures which would produce meaningful national statistics - something which Professor Jay highlighted in interviews. The table from the CEOPs report has to be understood in that context. It was the result of a six month investigation set up after the Rochdale localised grooming case in 2010 which put this issue onto the agenda.

The whole report is here and the executive summary is here.

Quoting from the latter :

It defines 'localised grooming' :



> ‘Localised grooming’ is a form of sexual exploitation – previously referred to as ‘on street grooming’ in the media - where children have been groomed and sexually exploited by an offender, having initially met in a location outside their home. This location is usually in public, such as a park, cinema, on the street or at a friend’s house. Offenders often act together, establishing a relationship with a child or children before sexually exploiting them. Some victims of ‘street grooming’ may believe that the offender is in fact an older ‘boyfriend’; these victims introduce their peers to the offender group who might then go on to be sexually exploited as well. Abuse may occur at a number of locations within a region and on several occasions. ‘Localised grooming’ was the term used by CEOP in the intelligence requests issued to police forces and other service agencies in order to define the data we wished to receive.



(It's perhaps worth emphasizing  that the Jay report deals with all forms of Child Sexual Exploitation not just 'localised grooming' although the latter has for obvious reasons attracted the most attention).

The report then explains - at length - how limited the data it had to work with is.

CEOPs report :


> This assessment was designed to assess the scale of ‘localised grooming’. Unfortunately, CEOP received a limited response from agencies, especially children’s services and LSCBs. [Local Safeguarding Children Boards] In total, only 13 LSCBs responded to the request   for information. The highest response was from police forces but a significant number of forces reported a nil return. The data is significantly weighted towards the relatively limited number of areas who have provided a comprehensive response. These areas generally have stronger partnership arrangements to address child sexual exploitation.





> This assessment cannot be seen as fully representative of the nature and scale of child sexual exploitation in the U.K., or, indeed, of the ‘localised grooming’ model. Data relating to child sexual exploitation is often partial and incomplete, concealed in secondary indicator data, or simply unrecorded.





> In many cases, agencies do not have any data on child sexual exploitation. Indications from service providers suggest that because victims frequently do not recognise that they are being exploited and do not disclose abuse, there is significant unidentified and unmet need.





> Where police, children’s services and voluntary sector agencies have worked together, coordinated by the LSCBs, to identify and address child sexual exploitation, a significant number of cases have come to light. However, very few case are known in areas where agencies do not routinely engage victims and collect data. Agencies which do not proactively look for child sexual exploitation will as a result fail to identify it. As a result, the majority of incidents of child sexual exploitation in the UK are unrecognised and unknown. In many cases, agencies do not have any data on child sexual exploitation. Indications from service providers suggest that because victims frequently do not recognise that they are being exploited and do not disclose abuse, there is significant unidentified and unmet need.


(...)


> 2,379 individuals were reported to CEOP as being possible offenders in relation to street grooming and child sexual exploitation. 1,162 individuals were excluded from analysis due to a lack of any basic information about them. The remaining data was divided into two groups, according to the level and quality of information available.(...)





> Group one consisted of 940 individuals for whom a full name or initials were recorded. Group two consisted of 277 individuals for whom only a given name or alias was available.





> When groups one and two (1,217 offenders) were analysed, despite the variable data quality, the results show that the vast majority are men, with 87% males, 4% females, and 9% unknown. they also show that the offenders are disproportionately skewed towards young adults within the 18-24 age range, with almost half of the offenders being under 25 where their age is known. The relative youth of the offender population is a striking feature of the data that
> is distinct from a common profile of the older male abuser.





> Caution should be taken in drawing conclusions about ethnicity due to the relatively small number of areas where agencies have been proactive around this particular type of crime. We do not draw national conclusions about ethnicity from the data available at this time because it is too inconsistent. Further research would be needed to examine whether the ethnic breakdown reflects issues that need to be addressed within a community context, local demographics  of the areas from which data is drawn, an unconscious bias among agency responses or other factors that need
> to be explored.





> In relation to ethnicity, the data was often recorded to a particularly poor standard at the point of capture. ‘Ethnicity’ was often conflated with ‘nationality’ and neither factor captured according to a conventional or standardised classification scheme. Within the available dataset there was a significant difference between the groups. For groups one and two combined, the ethnicity of 38% of the offenders was unknown, 30% were white, 28% asian 4 , 3% Black and 0.16% Chinese. When only group one was analysed, the offenders were found to be 38% White, 32% Unknown, 26% Asian, 3% Black, and 0.2% Chinese.


(...)


> Many of the cases submitted for assessment were incomplete and had significant intelligence gaps. This was particularly apparent in information relating to offenders. In some cases, there was no information provided at all relating to offenders and the respondent was only able to state that a child had disclosed that they had been groomed and sexually exploited.





> Unfortunately, due to the sources from which data has been drawn it has not been possible to identify or distinguish the nationality, as opposed to an ethnicity that has been given for offenders. The ‘Asian’ numbers may therefore comprise, for example, Pakistani or Bangladeshi nationals alongside British asians of different ethnic origins.



In short it makes abundantly clear that Police forces and other agencies had generally not identified this as an issue and did not keep records about it. These figures are likely - as the CEOPs report makes clear - to be skewed by the fact that the areas which do keep any kind of records are those where the recent street grooming trials have taken place. 

I'm - to say the least - unimpressed that these 'statistics' are being quoted to win an argument about race without making clear how severely limited they are, arguably to the point of being meaningless,  except as a starting point for further work. A more blunt way of expressing that springs to mind.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It's a brutal violation asserting male power over women. How could it not be motivated by hatred?



Ok so is all rape motivated by hatred?


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Ahh...sorry for being dim!
Im kind of gutted by some of the stuff on here...find it very disturbing...
Am off to have fun with my kids ... laters mate


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

^ ...well at least we can * ALL* agree on that...  

(...being gutted I mean, not you being dim..)


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ..er.....no they don't...


And where is race mentioned...?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

.....I honestly wouldn't expect it to be, would you ?

...the overwhelming assumption on any story associated with establishment institutions like the BBC or Govt would be that any people involved would be white male......?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

.....interesting  its only when we got an Asian prosecutor that these cases started actually being nailed  :



> Nazir Afzal
> 
> Nazir Afzal OBE, is the Chief Crown Prosecutor of the Crown Prosecution Service for North West England.[1][2] He is the first Muslim to be appointed to such a position and is Britain's most senior Muslim lawyer.
> 
> ...


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:
			
		

> I'm - to say the least - unimpressed that these 'statistics' are being quoted to win an argument about race without making clear how severely limited they are, arguably to the point of being meaningless, except as a starting point for further work. A more blunt way of expressing that springs to mind.



no-one is trying to 'win an argument about race' here other than you. fair enough to question the comprehensiveness of the CEOP report but the Times report still stands; that in the capacity of 'organised gangs' perpetrating the grooming since 1997 53 of 56 convictions have been non-white, of which 50 were Muslim and the vast majority of those Pakistani.

i'm not making any 'racial' extrapolations from that, just noting a severe trend in regards to a specific crime which you'd be criminally negligent to to take account of. the report from Rotheram explicitly argues the same, as does the Nazir Afzal quote just posted by hot air baboon above.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

*Sky News Newsdesk* @SkyNewsBreak
S Yorkshire Police Officer Daniel Cookson, previously based in Rotherham, charged with causing 15-year-old girl to engage in sexual activity


----------



## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> And where is race mentioned...?



 Nowhere, because race was not an issue.

It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.

The fucking state of some of you backflipping to avoid saying 'race' when the criminals aren't white. It's embarrassing to read.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> fair enough to question the comprehensiveness of the CEOP report


I'm not questioning it - I'm quoting it. The reservations about the adequacy of the data are theirs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.


it's a very vague statement - "it is an issue in some form". what form do you mean?


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## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> it's a very vague statement - "it is an issue in some form". what form do you mean?



 The following sentence after that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> The following sentence after that.


there is no following sentence after that. it's the end of a paragraph.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> Nowhere, because race was not an issue.
> 
> It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.
> 
> The fucking state of some of you backflipping to avoid saying 'race' when the criminals aren't white. It's embarrassing to read.


Why is it an issue in the rotherham case but not in the celeb cases...cos you and others say so?
Its you that decides to mention race when it suits not.me...ALL THE CELEBS WERE WHITE SO WHY IS IT IRRELEVANT WHEN ITS RELEVANT IN THIS CASE.?
it is the complete inability to answer this without spouting shit stats which are not backed up in any way which is a fucking joke...lots of this reads like this is worse cos the perpetrators are pakistanis and that is sick. Child abuse is abhorrent regardless of the colour of anyone involved...so why yhe fuck is race an issue in your mind?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

...there's no inability to answer it at all...the answer is staring anyone in the face who isn't blinkered .....that the race of the perpetrators is the factor that is clearly implicated as *one* of the factors - desspite whatever the whitewash-merchants on here are desparate to prove - that allowed these offences to go unpunished for so long in so many places up and down the county....

....we went over all this before over Savile.....Savile being a catholic  - not "relevant".......Catholic Priests all over the Western World implicated in child abuse and church authorities ignoring it to cover their arses : therefore  catholic = "relevant".......

..do we really need to rehash the details of all the other "Rotherhams" that have crawled out of the woodwork to make the point that there is something seriously amiss going on in this country.....


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Saville was white...or am I white washing that?
You decide his religion makes his colour irrelevant. ..while deciding it is relevant in this case...convenient for you point of view but completely worthless as is your argument


----------



## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...there's no inability to answer it at all...the answer is staring anyone in the face who isn't blinkered .....that the race of the perpetrators is the factor that is clearly implicated as *one* of the factors - desspite whatever the whitewash-merchants on here are desparate to prove - that allowed these offences to go unpunished for so long in so many places up and down the county....
> 
> ....we went over all this before over Savile.....Savile being a catholic  - not "relevant".......Catholic Priests all over the Western World implicated in child abuse and church authorities ignoring it to cover their arses : therefore  catholic = "relevant".......
> 
> ..do we really need to rehash the details of all the other "Rotherhams" that have crawled out of the woodwork to make the point that there is something seriously amiss going on in this country.....


 
I think race comes into it when you look at how some institutions were wary of being branded as racist and that may have impacted on the way they approached their investigations. However, I think culture is the bigger issue here for the abused and the abusers, white or otherwise.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...there's no inability to answer it at all...the answer is staring anyone in the face who isn't blinkered .....that the race of the perpetrators is the factor that is clearly implicated as *one* of the factors - desspite whatever the whitewash-merchants on here are desparate to prove - that allowed these offences to go unpunished for so long in so many places up and down the county....
> 
> ....we went over all this before over Savile.....Savile being a catholic  - not "relevant".......Catholic Priests all over the Western World implicated in child abuse and church authorities ignoring it to cover their arses : therefore  catholic = "relevant".......
> 
> ..do we really need to rehash the details of all the other "Rotherhams" that have crawled out of the woodwork to make the point that there is something seriously amiss going on in this country.....


Are you fucking thick?

Of course the people concerned are going to bleat about political correctness instead of admitting the uncomfortable truth that they didn't lift a finger because vulnerable young girls aren't high up on their list of priorities and are probably slags who brought it on themselves anyway.

Race is smoke and fucking mirrors. What do Savile and these fuckers have in common? They're male sexual predators who prey on young girls from childrens homes. Are Pakistani rapists worse than white celebrity ones or something?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Ok so is all rape motivated by hatred?


I'd say misogyny features in all offending of that nature yes.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

bmd said:


> I think race comes into it when you look at how some institutions were wary of being branded as racist and that may have impacted on the way they approached their investigations. However, I think culture is the bigger issue here for the abused and the abusers, white or otherwise.


Since when did the police care about being perceived racist?
that was an excuse to justify their could give a fuck attitude to the children being abused imo


----------



## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> there is no following sentence after that. it's the end of a paragraph.



 Fuck are you on about? Here's the sentence that follows the one you quoted.

"That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned."

That's the certain role that the issue of race plays in this, that it doesn't with Savile et al.



comrade spurski said:


> Why is it an issue in the rotherham case but not in the celeb cases...cos you and others say so?
> Its you that decides to mention race when it suits not.me...ALL THE CELEBS WERE WHITE SO WHY IS IT IRRELEVANT WHEN ITS RELEVANT IN THIS CASE.?
> it is the complete inability to answer this without spouting shit stats which are not backed up in any way which is a fucking joke...lots of this reads like this is worse cos the perpetrators are pakistanis and that is sick. Child abuse is abhorrent regardless of the colour of anyone involved...so why yhe fuck is race an issue in your mind?


The problem is that you can't fucking read. I said why it's an issue here and not there. bmd just reiterated the point.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:
			
		

> Are Pakistani rapists worse than white celebrity ones or something?



no, and no-one has said that. but if there is something embedded in the cultural institutions of the Pakistani community which has played a role in aiding the ability of several of these grooming gangs to go about their business, then there is an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed. just like when Catholic priests were using the cover of the church to protect themselves from repercussions from their abuse, it was quite correctly seen by pretty much everybody as an institutional problem within the Catholic church which needed to be remedied by reforms to that organisations own particular inner workings. with Saville and the BBC, it was the institutions of the BBC, Saville's own wealth and power and corruption of authorities which allowed him to do what he did - and quite rightly, everybody expected change from within the BBC, the Police, etc.

why do you keep insisting that by referring to cultural institutions people are referring to racial traits?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 28, 2014)

...yes....people don't get accused of being "culturalist" so I'm using the term in that sense....and would it really make any one feel any better if all the media stories ripping Savile's reputation to shreds had all been printed-up as   "..white DJ Jimmy Savile was a serial nonce and necrophiliac...."

.....this thread seems to be running on fumes now....the circus has moved on somewhere else and I may follow them....


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> Fuck are you on about? Here's the sentence that follows the one you quoted.
> 
> "That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned."
> 
> ...


so you say form but you mean role.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> <snip> but if there is something embedded in the cultural institutions of the Pakistani community which has played a role in aiding the ability of several of these grooming gangs to go about their business, then there is an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed.<snip>



But rape isn't exclusive to those communities, is it? So why do we need to understand "_an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed_" but not in wider society? Put the focus on Pakistani communities but give everyone else a clean bill of health? There-in lies your racism.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

The problem is that you can't fucking read. I said why it's an issue here and not there. bmd just reiterated the point.[/QUOTE]

The problem clearly is not caused by my inability to read.
You said race was not an issue...your very next sentence said..."


Ole said:


> It is an issue in some form with the Rotherham case. That's an uncontroversial matter of fact in as much as the nature of the investigations were concerned.
> 
> The fucking state of some of you backflipping to avoid saying 'race' when the criminals aren't white. It's embarrassing to read.



so how can race not be an issue and also be an issue in the rotherham case?

if you think that race does not play a role in the celebrity cases, politician cases and the catholic church cases but does in this case then you are at best being a complete hypocrite.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, and no-one has said that. but if there is something embedded in the cultural institutions of the Pakistani community which has played a role in aiding the ability of several of these grooming gangs to go about their business, then there is an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed. just like when Catholic priests were using the cover of the church to protect themselves from repercussions from their abuse, it was quite correctly seen by pretty much everybody as an institutional problem within the Catholic church which needed to be remedied by reforms to that organisations own particular inner workings. with Saville and the BBC, it was the institutions of the BBC, Saville's own wealth and power and corruption of authorities which allowed him to do what he did - and quite rightly, everybody expected change from within the BBC, the Police, etc.
> 
> why do you keep insisting that by referring to cultural institutions people are referring to racial traits?


So it's a fair cop guv but societies to blame ?

I don't disagree that if an institution or a culture breeds abuse or criminality it needs to be addressed but are you seriously suggesting that these are all just political problems which can be solved by reforming institutions ? Are you suggesting that it's the institutions which cause or facilitate or fail to deal with criminality which are the *real *problem ? And in the case of the Pakistani criminals we're talking about here I'll ask what I asked before - why are you assuming that it's their Pakistani cultural background that needs to be addressed rather than the criminal culture they are members of ?


----------



## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> Since when did the police care about being perceived racist?
> that was an excuse to justify their could give a fuck attitude to the children being abused imo


 
I think the cohesion and support that the Pakistani community give each other means that the police can't bully them as much as, say, Afro caribbeans. But I agree, I was thinking more of the council.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> So it's a fair cop guv but societies to blame ?
> 
> I don't disagree that if an institution or a culture breeds abuse or criminality it needs to be addressed but are you seriously suggesting that these are all just political problems which can be solved by reforming institutions ? Are you suggesting that it's the institutions which cause or facilitate or fail to deal with criminality which are the *real *problem ? And in the case of the Pakistani criminals we're talking about here I'll ask what I asked before - why are you assuming that it's their Pakistani cultural background that needs to be addressed rather than the criminal culture they are members of ?



Or their gender. Or how British society ignores young girls when they make complaints of this nature. Why isn't British society under the microscope? We're back to 'ethnic communities not doing enough' again aren't we.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

bmd said:


> I think the cohesion and support that the Pakistani community give each other means that the police can't bully them as much as, say, Afro caribbeans. But I agree, I was thinking more of the council.


From personal experience of working and living in woolwich and plumstead which has a large asian population including pakistanis and being a union rep the local council (greenwich...run by labour) could not give a shit about mistreating any one asian or about being accused of being racistand that experience has been repeated up and down the country with black and asian staff being appallingly treated by councils.
But I get the point youre making...I just think it is an absolute lie on their part to try and shift blame and justify the unjustifiable


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> But rape isn't exclusive to those communities, is it? So why do we need to understand "_an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed_" but not in wider society? Put the focus on Pakistani communities but give everyone else a clean bill of health? There-in lies your racism.


when the Delta scandal was exposed in the SWP and the party corralled around to protect him, there was clearly a problem with the SWP which needed addressing. saying as much in no way intimated that all SWPers were rapists - it also did not intimate that rape only occurs within the SWP - but clearly to deal with this problem which had particularly arrived in the party it required a party based response.

when you have a situation where grooming gangs emerge almost exclusively from Pakistani communities across towns in Northern England over the space of a decade and a half, there is clearly an issue in those communities which wants addressing.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> when the Delta scandal was exposed in the SWP and the party corralled around to protect him, there was clearly a problem with the SWP which needed addressing. saying as much in no way intimated that all SWPers were rapists - it also did not intimate that rape only occurs within the SWP - but clearly to deal with this problem which had particularly arrived in the party it required a party based response.
> 
> when you have a situation where grooming gangs emerge almost exclusively from Pakistani communities across towns in Northern England over the space of a decade and a half, there is clearly an issue in those communities which wants addressing.



I can take that point. The point I'm trying to make is that the same thing isn't said about any other crime relating to any other communities*. This appears to be a special case. And I can't help but feel it ties in nicely with the constant Muslim bashing in the right wing press.

*Apart from travellers. The moneyed class are never asked to search their consciences for the havoc they bring on all.


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## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

bmd said:


> I think the cohesion and support that the Pakistani community give each other means that the police can't bully them as much as, say, Afro caribbeans. But I agree, I was thinking more of the council.


I think I understand what you mean but it's important not to romanticize this. Here in Tower Hamlets the Bangladeshi community is very cohesive and politically organized but it contains the same hierarchies of wealth, status, gender etc. as British society in general and in some ways these hierarchies can be even more constraining. For the much smaller ethnic communities it's very different.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Muslim bashing. Inept social workers. Political correctness to blame. It's a Daily Mail wet dream.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Muslim bashing. Inept social workers. Political correctness to blame. It's a Daily Mail wet dream.




and the failure/complicity of SYP goes virtually unmentioned in the rush to decry those peedo muzzies and the PC brigade


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## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

Concentrate on them then.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> The fucking state of some of you backflipping to avoid saying 'race' when the criminals aren't white. It's embarrassing to read.



Whereas I'm not embarrassed by your inability to understand the differences between the concepts of 'race', 'ethnicity', or 'culture', disappointed yes, embarrassed no. 

Perhaps that 'backflipping' you claim to be reading is no more than other people simply having a deeper understanding of these concepts and how they are being used erroneously as short cuts for one another in the way that this is being reported and debated.

If you don't, I fear you don't actually understand _racism_ as all.


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 28, 2014)

> Paedophiles prefer Blond, Blue eyed boys, probably the same for girl victims, and these creeps are fully capable of being Racist.





ViolentPanda said:


> And your evidence for this is...?


In this documentary it is mentioned at one point:


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## krink (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> In my opinion no-one could ACTUALLY READ THE REPORT and come to the conclusion that the only reason the Police didn't act was because they were afraid of being branded as racist, unless they were so obsessed with race that it inhibited  their ability to read and understand.
> 
> The Police didn't act for lot's and lots of reasons  - here's just a few :
> 
> ...



Thank you for that post, it was exactly what i was thinking. If people read the report they will see 'i was afraid of being labelled racist' is a minor point. LOADS of people did speak out over all these years; front-line staff at the council, social workers, youth workers and, although I hate to say this as I hate the fuckers, I'm sure even some cops spoke out. It was because nobody gave a shit about these kids. They were viewed as scum by the abusers, the cops, the service managers etc. Seen as a problem not real, actual children who were being hurt and needed protecting.

The first concern should be protecting these kids (it is still happening), the second to make sure all those managers, police chiefs etc get strung up and third, make sure it can't happen again.

Whoever wrote that sun headline blaming 'PC' for this wants shooting.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> when the Delta scandal was exposed in the SWP and the party corralled around to protect him, there was clearly a problem with the SWP which needed addressing. saying as much in no way intimated that all SWPers were rapists - it also did not intimate that rape only occurs within the SWP - but clearly to deal with this problem which had particularly arrived in the party it required a party based response.
> 
> when you have a situation where grooming gangs emerge almost exclusively from Pakistani communities across towns in Northern England over the space of a decade and a half, there is clearly an issue in those communities which wants addressing.


It was their mates that protected them...along with the police and authorities who did nothing...thats fuck all to do with the pakistani community.
When stephen lawrence was murdered in a racist attack in greenwich the white community were not to blame...the police tried to blame the white community though, accussing them of a wall of silence as a way to justify their inaction and incompetence...there is no difference here.
Some men sexually abused over a thousand children. No one in authority did anything to protect those children or to stop the attackers. That is true of the celebrity cases, the politician cases, the catholic church case and this case yet this is an issue for the pakistani community and the race of the attackers in the other cases are irrelevant...seriously can you not see how mad this is...the issue is that in all these cases that those in authority failec to do their jobs of protecting children... and until this isaddressed it will happen again and again ...


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## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> In this documentary it is mentioned at one point:


Is that the same one that showed that pedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with human beings ?


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Is that the same one that showed that pedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with human beings ?


No,^ Watch the video.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Is that the same one that showed that pedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with human beings ?



Your talking nonce sense.


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## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Your talking nonce sense.


Well I guess it's not really a laughing matter.

Thinking about it it's a good job this preference doesn't exist in a society where being blonde and blue eyed is culturally valued because it means we can use it as an indicator as to whether someone has pedophile inclinations.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

krink said:


> Thank you for that post, it was exactly what i was thinking. If people read the report they will see 'i was afraid of being labelled racist' is a minor point. LOADS of people did speak out over all these years; front-line staff at the council, social workers, youth workers and, although I hate to say this as I hate the fuckers, I'm sure even some cops spoke out. It was because nobody gave a shit about these kids. They were viewed as scum by the abusers, the cops, the service managers etc. Seen as a problem not real, actual children who were being hurt and needed protecting.
> 
> The first concern should be protecting these kids (it is still happening), the second to make sure all those managers, police chiefs etc get strung up and third, make sure it can't happen again.
> 
> Whoever wrote that sun headline blaming 'PC' for this wants shooting.


too good for them


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## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> when the Delta scandal was exposed in the SWP and the party corralled around to protect him, there was clearly a problem with the SWP which needed addressing. saying as much in no way intimated that all SWPers were rapists - it also did not intimate that rape only occurs within the SWP - but clearly to deal with this problem which had particularly arrived in the party it required a party based response.
> 
> when you have a situation where grooming gangs emerge almost exclusively from Pakistani communities across towns in Northern England over the space of a decade and a half, there is clearly an issue in those communities which wants addressing.




ok, so you address a problem in the swp, or in the pakistani community. where does this leave everyone else. where in society does misogynistic shit not happen?

you will start to deal with the problem when you accept that this shit is everywhere and needs to be dealt with everywhere.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> when the Delta scandal was exposed in the SWP and the party corralled around to protect him, there was clearly a problem with the SWP which needed addressing. saying as much in no way intimated that all SWPers were rapists - it also did not intimate that rape only occurs within the SWP - but clearly to deal with this problem which had particularly arrived in the party it required a party based response.
> 
> when you have a situation where grooming gangs emerge almost exclusively from Pakistani communities across towns in Northern England over the space of a decade and a half, there is clearly an issue in those communities which wants addressing.


er...

your first paragraph is bollocks because the swp showed itself incapable of providing a satisfactory party-based response - or, rather, much of the party abandoned the party because of its response.

secondly, the pakistani community is not some monolithic homogenous grouping with disciplinary procedures and whatnot, it's a conglomeration of people who are lumped together because they all come from one country. should they police themselves? should they really? it's not such a grand idea. what should happen is the sort of thing we're discussing is resolved throughout society, as per toggle's post above.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> Paedophiles prefer Blond, Blue eyed boys, probably the same for girl victims,



Hitler's Ayrian dream violated by the sons of Mohammed. Where have you parachuted in from then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Hitler's Ayrian dream violated by the sons of Mohammed. Where have you parachuted in from then?


planet of the semi-literate judging by inability to spell cunnilingus.


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## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd say misogyny features in all offending of that nature yes.



What in ALL offending?


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> But rape isn't exclusive to those communities, is it? So why do we need to understand "_an issue here which is particularly related to the Pakistani community which needs to be understood and addressed_" but not in wider society? Put the focus on Pakistani communities but give everyone else a clean bill of health? There-in lies your racism.



Hang on thats not racism. The very closed nature of some of the communities allowed the abuse to be covered up for longer and in these shared amongst those in the communities. Just like Pitcairn.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> What in ALL offending?



You missed the last bit off mister scarecrow stalker.


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 28, 2014)

I


Pickman's model said:


> planet of the semi-literate judging by inability to spell cunnilingus.


I know it is spelt wrong, but the Mods won't change it. It was written in a hurry when the computer wasn't working.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Hang on thats not racism. The very closed nature of some of the communities allowed the abuse to be covered up for longer and in these shared amongst those in the communities. Just like Pitcairn.



And you know that how?

Because my neighbours don't know I'm talking shit on the internet at this very minute.

You're coming out with racist tropes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Hang on thats not racism. The very closed nature of some of the communities allowed the abuse to be covered up for longer and in these shared amongst those in the communities. Just like Pitcairn.


it wasn't covered up by the community, rather the people abused were failed time and again by a range of institutions as this link of key dates makes clear: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28955170


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## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You missed the last bit off mister scarecrow stalker.



...ok offending of this nature. So you'd argue misogyny is a feature of ALL rape. So someone who is drunk, has impaired judgement, misreads the signs-rapes someone...thats misogony? I mean all rape is wrong regardless of the circumstances but to suggest misogyny is a feature of ALL rapes ignores the contexts of some rapes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> I
> 
> I know it is spelt wrong, but the Mods won't change it. It was written in a hurry when the computer wasn't working.


have you asked them nicely? this tactic often pays dividends.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> ...ok offending of this nature. So you'd argue misogyny is a feature of ALL rape. So someone who is drunk, has impaired judgement, misreads the signs-rapes someone...thats misogony? I mean all rape is wrong regardless of the circumstances but to suggest misogyny is a feature of ALL rapes ignores the contexts of some rapes.



quoted, before he actually thinks and deletes this rape apologism


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> ...ok offending of this nature. So you'd argue misogyny is a feature of ALL rape. So someone who is drunk, has impaired judgement, misreads the signs-rapes someone...thats misogony? I mean all rape is wrong regardless of the circumstances but to suggest misogyny is a feature of ALL rapes ignores the contexts of some rapes.



Yes. Exerting male power to the detriment of a female stems from misogyny. And we're talking about extreme forms of it here.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> And you know that how?
> 
> Because my neighbours don't know I'm talking shit on the internet at this very minute.
> 
> You're coming out with racist tropes.


 

I know this how because I have worked in some northern asian areas like Bradford and Huddersfield doing outreach work as a drugs worker and a support worker. I have some knowledge of ghettoised areas and those very communities. Smaller insular communities make it easier in some cases for this type of offence to occur.


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## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> ...ok offending of this nature. So you'd argue misogyny is a feature of ALL rape. So someone who is drunk, has impaired judgement, misreads the signs-rapes someone...thats misogony? I mean all rape is wrong regardless of the circumstances but to suggest misogyny is a feature of ALL rapes ignores the contexts of some rapes.



"It's only because I love you so much". 

Unbelievable.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> quoted, before he actually thinks and deletes this rape apologism




Oh you can just predict the next thing it is after all urban. Do fuck off .Ive said all rape is wrong you utter cunt. Dont ever label me as a rape apologist


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> I
> 
> I know it is spelt wrong, but the Mods won't change it. It was written in a hurry when the computer wasn't working.


Do you really want to Ban Cunnilingus? If so, why?


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh you can just predict the next thing it is after all urban. Do fuck off .Ive said all rape is wrong you utter cunt. Dont ever label me as a rape apologist



then don't be one you fucking ignorant fucking rape justifying piece of shite

mixed signals?

ffs

cunt


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Smaller insular communities make it easier in some cases for this type of offence to occur.


And in other cases they can make certain kinds of abuse more difficult - it's why groups band together. There is no kind of community structure - close or loose, open or close, extended or isolated - that cannot be exploited by criminals or manipulative abusers.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh you can just predict the next thing it is after all urban. Do fuck off .Ive said all rape is wrong you utter cunt. Dont ever label me as a rape apologist


I think saying rape might be down to 'misreading the signs' is interpretable as rape apologism.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> then don't be one you fucking ignorant fucking rape justifying piece of shite
> 
> mixed signals?
> 
> ...




Oh do fuck off you tiresome cunt. Even the law recognises there are different levels of rape and has sentencing guidelines but I guess the judiciary are rape apologists too.

All rape is wrong-but stating a fact there are different contexts doesnt make one a rape apologist.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I know this how because I have worked in some northern asian areas like Bradford and Huddersfield doing outreach work as a drugs worker and a support worker. I have some knowledge of ghettoised areas and those very communities. Smaller insular communities make it easier in some cases for this type of offence to occur.



So your conclusion is that those communities are colluding with and covering up offences? Not that they may not have the full picture? Or that they may be bullied into silence or anything like that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh do fuck off you tiresome cunt. Even the law recognises there are different levels of rape and has sentencing guidelines but I guess the judiciary are rape apologists too.
> 
> All rape is wrong-but stating a fact there are different contexts doesnt make one a rape apologist.


perhaps you could run through what you see as the different levels of rape.


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 28, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Do you really want to Ban Cunnilingus? If so, why?


I don't think this thread is the appropriate place to bring this up and discuss it, which is just  a joke name for an avatar, the thread is about quite a serious matter.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh do fuck off you tiresome cunt. Even the law recognises there are different levels of rape and has sentencing guidelines but I guess the judiciary are rape apologists too.
> 
> All rape is wrong-but stating a fact there are different contexts doesnt make one a rape apologist.



and people wonder why feminists get fucking furious when we have to deal with this kind of shite.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I know this how because I have worked in some northern asian areas like Bradford and Huddersfield doing outreach work as a drugs worker and a support worker. I have some knowledge of ghettoised areas and those very communities. Smaller insular communities make it easier in some cases for this type of offence to occur.


right. so the fuck ups by a range of agencies who were told year in and year out what was going on had nothing to do with the perpetrators getting away with it, it was the closed, insular pakistanis who were hiding this away.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh do fuck off you tiresome cunt. Even the law recognises there are different levels of rape and has sentencing guidelines but I guess the judiciary are rape apologists too.



You really do have a death wish.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So your conclusion is that those communities are colluding with and covering up offences? Not that they may not have the full picture? Or that they may be bullied into silence or anything like that?


Or just didn't know? Surely most people simply had no idea this was happening.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> I don't think this thread is the appropriate place to bring this up and discuss it, which is just  a joke name for an avatar, the thread is about quite a serious matter.


Aw go on. Your name matters. Posting on here with it makes it relevant.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could run through what you see as the different levels of rape.


Seconding this.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you could run through what you see as the different levels of rape.



Gang rape is the worst obvs.

Stranger rape where you give her a clip and roll her around in the mud is not quite as bad.

Banging your female mate after the pub when she's too pissed to know what's going on isn't really bad at all because she agreed on an earlier occasion.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Seconding this.



http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/

Its there in black and white


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Gang rape is the worst obvs.
> 
> Stranger rape where you give her a clip and roll her around in the mud is not quite as bad.
> 
> Banging your female mate after the pub when she's too pissed to know what's going on isn't really bad at all because she agreed on an earlier occasion.




Now you're just being a twat. Ive said all rape is bad and now youre making light of it. Fucking wanker.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Gang rape is the worst obvs.
> 
> Stranger rape where you give her a clip and roll her around in the mud is not quite as bad.
> 
> Banging your female mate after the pub when she's too pissed to know what's going on isn't really bad at all because she agreed on an earlier occasion.



and obviously, not bothering to find out whether she actually wants sex or not, that's just mixed signals (bad sexual etiquette?), not actual proper rape by an actual rapist. just some poor lad who made a mistake. 

only actual decent human beings, who care about their partners, who treat them with respect, who aren't misogynists, who believe in equality ehnough to put their words into practice, who have been taught right from wrong. they don't make mistakes. 

mixed signals, it's not a reason, not a cause for rape, ti's a fucking justification for being a rapist.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Now you're just being a twat. Ive said all rape is bad and now youre making light of it. Fucking wanker.



You're right, it isn't something to make fun out of really. I haven't been raped myself so I'm the least qualified to say what is or isn't bad.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/
> 
> Its there in black and white


but what's YOUR OWN VIEW?


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You're right, it isn't something to make fun out of really. I haven't been raped myself so I'm the least qualified to say what is or isn't bad.



Two of my ex partners were raped. My cousin was nearly raped by a complete stranger. I have worked with dug users that have been raped. I am fully aware of the effect this has on its victims I have *zero *tolerance to rape-and  believe nobody waivers their right to say no up to and including penetration-even when the law consider sexual contact prior to rape a mitigating circumstance

I am pissed off that anybody would dare suggest I am a rape apologist Citizen 66-I am pointing out there are different contexts to the offence and the law even states that.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I am pissed off that anybody would dare suggest I am a rape apologist Citizen 66-I am pointing out there are different contexts to the offence and the law even states that.



With the law being all fair and just and all that malarkey.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

as for sentencing guidelines and the behavior of the judiciary, i think anyone who bothers to read the news will know that there are a lot of people within the judicial system who are rape apologists. who promote rape myths from the bench. who tell rapists that they were just naughty boys, not actual proper rapists, who blame victims, who want the law changed to protect offenders.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> but what's YOUR OWN VIEW?




On your bike you twat. You wanted to hear about the different levels of rape-then toddled after somebody liking their post and Ive given it to you. Even now when Ive shown you sentencing guidelines that recognises in law there are different contexts you simply cant back down. Even after I clearly said ALL rape was wrong.

Just like the figures over false allegations of rape where I was 1% out you hounded me in that thread and split hairs over it. Consider this my last reply to you you utter cunt.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> as for sentencing guidelines and the behavior of the judiciary, i think anyone who bothers to read the news will know that there are a lot of people within the judicial system who are rape apologists. who promote rape myths from the bench. who tell rapists that they were just naughty boys, not actual proper rapists, who blame victims, who want the law changed to protect offenders.



Not so long back it was LEGAL to rape your wife!

The law says it's ok so it is.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> With the law being all fair and just and all that malarkey.



*shakes head* nobody least of all me has said its fair. I opened my post with saying all rape is wrong-but we were discussing contexts-you remember the original point? Then when I said the law recognises different contexts you suggested I had a death wish. Ive now proven to you this is the case-and all you can wimper is something flippant about the law-after youve made light of rape. What a twat.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 28, 2014)

.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Not so long back it was LEGAL to rape your wife!
> 
> The law says it's ok so it is.



based on interregnum era legal opinions

i think. certainly about that time.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> *shakes head* nobody least of all me has said its fair. I opened my post with saying all rape is wrong-but we were discussing contexts-you remember the original point? Then when I said the law recognises different contexts you suggested I had a death wish. Ive now proven to you this is the case-and all you can wimper is something flippant about the law-after youve made light of rape. What a twat.



I think you're mixing up disagreements you've been having with toggle with some of my posts but that's largely irrelevant given I feel she has a point.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> based on interregnum era legal opinions
> 
> i think. certainly about that time.



In earlier days a Lord had the option to deflower your wife before you did on your wedding day!

Hierarchy sucks ass.


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I think you're mixing up disagreements you've been having with toggle with some of my posts but that's largely irrelevant given I feel she has a point.




I dont think so. Its there in black and white. Post 517


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> *shakes head* nobody least of all me has said its fair. I opened my post with saying all rape is wrong-but we were discussing contexts-you remember the original point? Then when I said the law recognises different contexts you suggested I had a death wish. Ive now proven to you this is the case-and all you can wimper is something flippant about the law-after youve made light of rape. What a twat.


I thought you brought up context to explain how some rape doesn't involve misogyny. I don't quite understand how that works. Is it like the argument that it's not really racism unless the guy setting light to your house is wearing a prominent and clearly visible swastika ?


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

the main point i'm trying to make is that 'mixed signals' ins't a reason why someone accidently rapes. 

it is a justification used by rapists to deny that they are actual rapists after they have been caught out raping.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I dont think so. Its there in black and white. Post 517



I don't get what's wrong with that post? Perhaps you don't post here regularly enough to understand the subtext of it.


----------



## toggle (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> With the law being all fair and just and all that malarkey.



and the fact that the people who make and interpret it aren't misogynist, unlike brown people. and the swp.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Not that it matters. Fucking hell, Kenneth Clarke was hauled over the coals in the national media for saying something similar. Do you live in a cocoon Grandma Death ?


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> the main point i'm trying to make is that 'mixed signals' ins't a reason why someone accidently rapes.
> 
> it is a justification used by rapists to deny that they are actual rapists after they have been caught out raping.



I agree completely-but would you agree that a drunken perpetrator who has impaired judgement is a different context to a pre meditated rape by a complete stranger? Both scenarios are clearly rape but you'd agree there are different contexts?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Here it is Grandma Death , some mail from Earth to Jupiter.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13436429


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Not that it matters. Fucking hell, Kenneth Clarke was hauled over the coals in the national media for saying something similar. Do you live in a cocoon Grandma Death ?




Ken Clarke said some rapes were more serious than others-he didnt say ALL rape was bad-as I clearly did


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Ken Clarke said some rapes were more serious than others-he didnt say ALL rape was bad-as I clearly did



You're kind of saying one to disguise the fact you're saying the other.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Anyway, this is a massive unneeded derail really. I don't have any beef with you Grandma Death so we should get back to the topic of your racism?


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> You're kind of saying one to disguise the fact you're saying the other.




I'll put it in bold for you because clearly you and the rest of the mob didnt quite get it:



Grandma Death said:


> ...ok offending of this nature. So you'd argue misogyny is a feature of ALL rape. So someone who is drunk, has impaired judgement, misreads the signs-rapes someone...thats misogyny? *I mean all rape is wrong regardless of the circumstances* but to suggest misogyny is a feature of ALL rapes ignores the contexts of some rapes.



Being drunk impairs your judgement and makes you do all sorts of idiotic things-driving for example. Some people drive drunk and go on to kill people whilst drunk. Doesnt make them bad drivers does it?

Misogyny isnt a feature of ALL rapes. ALL rapes aren't the same. The reasons, motives, contexts etc will differ from offence to offence. Male on Male rape for example. Grooming gangs. Paedophilia gangs..the list goes on.

ALL rape is rape. There is NO excuse for it and never will be. But clearly there are different context to the offence-and to describe it as such doesnt make me a rape apologist


----------



## Grandma Death (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Anyway, this is a massive unneeded derail really. I don't have any beef with you Grandma Death so we should get back to the topic of your racism?



Listen Citizen 66 I was a regular poster here once-and I stopped posting. The interactions on the last few pages has made me realise why I rarely post here now. You may call it a 'derail' I call it bullying and deeply offensive to me-I am not and never will be a rape apologist. I am also pissed off with you making light of a serious subject.

Im out of this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> On your bike you twat. You wanted to hear about the different levels of rape-then toddled after somebody liking their post and Ive given it to you. Even now when Ive shown you sentencing guidelines that recognises in law there are different contexts you simply cant back down. Even after I clearly said ALL rape was wrong.
> 
> Just like the figures over false allegations of rape where I was 1% out you hounded me in that thread and split hairs over it. Consider this my last reply to you you utter cunt.


i only wish it was


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death was saying that in some instances rape occurs without it being intended or understood as rape on behalf of the rapist... that's actually quite current 'common sense' amongst the most right on sections of 3rd wave feminism. trying to peg it as rape apologism is, frankly, gutter politics. if anything you could construe it as the opposite. not to mention the fact that this thread, which imo is actually incredibly important, has now been totally derailed.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Being drunk impairs your judgement and makes you do all sorts of idiotic things-driving for example. Some people drive drunk and go on to kill people whilst drunk. Doesnt make them bad drivers does it?
> 
> Misogyny isnt a feature of ALL rapes. ALL rapes aren't the same. The reasons, motives, contexts etc will differ from offence to offence. Male on Male rape for example. Grooming gangs. Paedophilia gangs..the list goes on.
> 
> ALL rape is rape. There is NO excuse for it and never will be. But clearly there are different context to the offence-and to describe it as such doesnt make me a rape apologist



Being drunk whilst driving makes you as culpable as when you mow down and kill someone deliberately, yes. You know the likelihood of it happening but you just went and did it anyway.

If I disagree with you and smash a glass in your face it's okay because I was pissed? Well maybe not ok, but there's a 'different context to it'. Shut up. You'd be fucking livid and wouldn't buy that as an excuse at all.

You were asking for it though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Being drunk whilst driving makes you as culpable when you mow down and kill someone as someone who did it maliciously, yes..


I don't think so. But that doesn't make me a drunk driving apologist.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think so. But that doesn't make me a drunk driving apologist.



I guess the difference is murder or manslaughter. Makes no odds to the poor fucker killed though ey?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2014)

Sprocket. said:


> Yvette Cooper calling for Shaun Wright to step down later this afternoon.
> Labour will be shitting bricks.


Still hasn't gone. Astonishing.


----------



## bmd (Aug 28, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Still hasn't gone. Astonishing.


 
Innit. The brass neck of the utter wanker. How he believes he can operate with any authority whatsoever is mystifying.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 28, 2014)

bmd said:


> Innit. The brass neck of the utter wanker. How he believes he can operate with any authority whatsoever is mystifying.


Indeed. If you set on one side the rather more important issue of his role in the scandal itself, it's utter stupidity to think he can ride this out and deal with other agencies when they are all telling him to go.  Rob Ford-esque.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Good grief

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-try-to-prove-victims-are-lying-9697859.html



> The police force at the centre of the Rotherham child abuse scandal has been accused by inspectors of a cultural disregard for victims of crime with officers actively trying to disprove allegations of some of the most vulnerable.
> 
> The findings by HM Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) heaped further pressure on the police and crime commissioner for South Yorkshire, Shaun Wright, who is facing demands to step down over his role in the collective failure of the council’s leadership to deal with child abuse in the town.
> 
> ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Although I'm not disagreeing that he should go, hanging him out to dry won't actually alter the system that allows this shit to happen.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 28, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> Grandma Death was saying that in some instances rape occurs without it being intended or understood as rape on behalf of the rapist... that's actually quite current 'common sense' amongst the most right on sections of 3rd wave feminism. trying to peg it as rape apologism is, frankly, gutter politics. if anything you could construe it as the opposite. not to mention the fact that this thread, which imo is actually incredibly important, has now been totally derailed.


Unintentional rape? Didnt understand he was committing rape?
Rape is rape...if you do not have permission to have sex then it is rape...yet you spout that shit and have the front to get indignant...fucking hell...you have some fucked up views


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

Sorry, I formatted that badly - the bit that struck me was this :


> It said that the force’s public protection unit – which deals with hate crime, domestic abuse and sex crimes – spent a “great deal of time trying to disprove the word of the victim from the outset, rather than record the crime”.


----------



## Sprocket. (Aug 28, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Still hasn't gone. Astonishing.



The sad thing is his refusal to step down has overshadowed the horror and disgrace of the offences for the last forty eight hours. 
Forget the victims let's prattle on about this self centred twat!


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 28, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> I'll put it in bold for you because clearly you and the rest of the mob didnt quite get it:
> 
> 
> 
> Being drunk impairs your judgement and makes you do all sorts of idiotic things-driving for example. Some people drive drunk and go on to kill people whilst drunk. Doesnt make them bad drivers does it?


Yes it fucking does. It makes them very very bad drivers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I guess the difference is murder or manslaughter. Makes no odds to the poor fucker killed though ey?


Nothing makes any odds to the poor fucker killed. It having been an accident caused by mechanical failure through no fault to the driver wouldn't either.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nothing makes any odds to the poor fucker killed. It having been an accident caused by mechanical failure through no fault to the driver wouldn't either.



So you do see a difference between planned rape and someone making a 'mistake' when pissed then?

Moreover, does a victim see a difference (which is my point)?


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 28, 2014)

The HMIC inspectors report is here :
http://www.justiceinspectorates.gov...crime-data-integrity-south-yorkshire-2014.pdf

I'd assumed this was something to do with the follow up to the report into SYP's response to child sexual exploitation which Shaun Wright asked the HMIC to produce last year but that still seems to be under consultation. This is one of a series of reports about Crime Data Integrity which the HMIC have compiled for every force.



> *Accuracy of crime recording *
> We examined 152 incident records  and found that 117 crimes should have been recorded. Of the 117 crimes that should have been recorded, 89 were. Of the 89, 3 were wrongly classified and 9 were recorded outside the 72-hour limit allowed under the HOCR.


(...)


> We examined 53 reports that were referred from other agencies directly to the force’s specialist departments. Of the 34 crimes that should have been recorded, 18 had been recorded. All 18 had been correctly classified, but 8 were recorded outside the 72-hour limit allowed under the HOCR. This level of under-recorded crime is a significant cause of concern and is a matter of material and urgent importance, particularly as some of these relate to violence and sexual assault against vulnerable children. (...)





> We also found that in some cases of more serious crime, an ‘investigate-to-record’  process was being implemented; [This means that the police do not record the incident as a crime at first, but instead investigate the matter in order to establish whether a crime has been committed]. This was particularly evident in the public protection unit, with a great deal of time spent trying to disprove the word of the victim from the outset, rather than record the crime in compliance with the NCRS and HOCR and then take the appropriate action as the investigation progressed.





> This culture of dealing with reports of crime shows a disregard for victims and is unacceptable; it hides the true extent of the picture of crime from the force and is particularly concerning when the offences investigated by this unit are often of the most serious nature and victims are often the most vulnerable.


(...)


> There is an inherent risk that a significant number of reported offences of a serious nature have not been recorded and that vulnerable victims have, as a consequence, been left unprotected or at risk of further offending.


(...)


> *No-crime *
> No-crime refers to an incident that was initially recorded as a crime but has subsequently been found not to be a crime on the basis of additional verifiable information.


(...)


> Our audit of the 17 rape no-crime decisions, found that 13 complied with the NCRS and HOCR.



This isn't historic data - it's about their current performance. Clearly the expression "If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging" isn't part of the management style.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So you do see a difference between planned rape and someone making a 'mistake' when pissed then?
> 
> Moreover, does a victim see a difference (which is my point)?


I'm not qualified to say. I would guess that the trauma caused by the different scenarios could be very different, though, yes.

fwiw I think posters have been taking each other the wrong way on both sides here.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not qualified to say. I would guess that the trauma caused by the different scenarios could be very different, though, yes.



But one being worse than the other is entirely based on the effect on the victim, as opposed to sentencing guidelines, surely?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> But one being worse than the other is entirely based on the effect on the victim, as opposed to sentencing guidelines, surely?


Effect on the victim plus intention to harm, I would have thought. If there was a clear intention to harm, that makes it morally worse in my book.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Effect on the victim plus intention to harm, I would have thought. If there was a clear intention to harm, that makes it morally worse in my book.



Why though?

Different people have different levels of coping with something. I can understand why sentencing works that way. But that wasn't what we were discussing. It was suggested that there's varying levels of rape and the sentencing guidelines back this up. But sentencing guidelines aren't tailored to the effect something has had on someone's life. Yes we can say it's worse to stalk a woman at knifepoint and drag her into a field. But that doesn't mean that forcing yourself on a woman in a comfortable surroundings somehow isn't as bad. I'm struggling to understand why people aren't getting this. Try telling a date raped woman that at least it didn't happen in a dark lane. Just wtf.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Ok, I'm really not interested in sentencing guidelines. That's not my guide as to the wrongness of a thing. And you're right that it feels wrong and impossible to grade things like that. But I also think you're at crossed purposes with grandma death, because he wasn't suggesting it was somehow an either/or: 'well at least I didn't...' as if that mitigated what someone did do.

I would think that sentencing guidelines also reflect other things, such as the danger of a person to the rest of us. A man who drags someone off under threat of violence and rapes them needs to be sent to prison for a very long time as he is dangerous. A man who rapes a woman when drunk and is sincerely sorry afterwards may not represent the same level of danger.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok, I'm really not interested in sentencing guidelines. That's not my guide as to the wrongness of a thing. And you're right that it feels wrong and impossible to grade things like that. But I also think you're at crossed purposes with grandma death, because he wasn't suggesting it was somehow an either/or: 'well at least I didn't...' as if that mitigated what someone did do.



Yes, it was a rather unpleasant side-show which distracted us from the earlier things he was saying (that I was also disputing).


----------



## Earendel (Aug 28, 2014)

toggle said:


> ok, so you address a problem in the swp, or in the pakistani community. where does this leave everyone else. where in society does misogynistic shit not happen?
> 
> you will start to deal with the problem when you accept that this shit is everywhere and needs to be dealt with everywhere.



Oh dear....Looks like there might be a flaw in your world-view.  You bandy around this term 'misogyny' as if repeating it might accord it some special meaning.  The truth is that the causes of this scandal are complex, but one thing is certain: if people had not been bullied and cowed by idiots like you and were able to speak openly about certain subjects, those girls would not have been victimised.  The Left - people on this 'discussion' board - have had a hand in this.  Most especially hysterical nitwits like yourself.



butchersapron said:


> It _is_ key here to disengage race from culture and refuse those who merge the two. There's a fair few knocking about reading this thread, dropping a few hints now and then.



If you think race can be disengaged from culture, then you are an ignorant fool.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Oh dear....Looks like there might be a flaw in your world-view.
> 
> 
> If you think race can be disengaged from culture, then you are an ignorant fool.


Took a few pints tonight to come out with eh?

And i just add more shit to a thread that's, disappointingly, gone down the shitter already.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

You made the best post on the thread.

/sycophancy.

Save it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

interesting to see how many hitherto unheard voices are coming out on this thread


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> If you think race can be disengaged from culture, then you are an ignorant fool.


It needs to be, imo, if we are definitively to overcome racism. When a person's physical characteristics indicating ancestry are no longer associated with particular cultural assumptions by people who know nothing else about them, we will finally live in a world where people can avoid being judged for physical characteristics indicating ancestry.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 28, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Took a few pints tonight to come out with eh?
> 
> And i just add more shit to a thread that's, disappointingly, gone down the shitter already.



You cannot disengage race from culture.  To hold that position is utterly counter-factual and idiotic.  I think you know this.  You have a rather sinister agenda.  You spend a great deal of your time on here, which is rather sad in itself, but prompts me to ponder whether you are being paid - and if so, by whom?

Who are you serving?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> If you think race can be disengaged from culture, then you are an ignorant fool.





It's part of my culture to post here on u75. What race does that make me?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It needs to be, imo, if we are definitively to overcome racism. When a person's physical characteristics indicating ancestry are no longer associated with particular cultural assumptions by people who know nothing else about them, we will finally live in a world where people can avoid being judged for physical characteristics indicating ancestry.


Why bother, racist twat who'll be banned shortly.


----------



## Ole (Aug 28, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Whereas I'm not embarrassed by your inability to understand the differences between the concepts of 'race', 'ethnicity', or 'culture', disappointed yes, embarrassed no.
> 
> Perhaps that 'backflipping' you claim to be reading is no more than other people simply having a deeper understanding of these concepts and how they are being used erroneously as short cuts for one another in the way that this is being reported and debated.
> 
> If you don't, I fear you don't actually understand _racism_ as all.



You complete joker.

Firstly, those who I was referring to as 'backflipping' around race weren't even talking about, let alone demonstrating any understanding of, the concepts of race, culture or ethnicity, except to say that none of them had anything to do with this case in Rotherham. I think I can figure out the difference between the concepts, oh wise one, but race and ethnicity tend to get conflated in informal language like it has frequently been in this thread, and since there was no harm in the conflation in that context I went along with it.

I've already made it clear how race/ethnicity is necessarily a part of the discussion here where it may not be elsewhere for e.g. Savile, because of the problems that appear to have arisen around it in the investigation, at a minimum.

Sick of repeating myself tbh, last time I do it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

It's not like they just joined to to give a percieved 'The Left' a bashing is it?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Oh dear....Looks like there might be a flaw in your world-view.  You bandy around this term 'misogyny' as if repeating it might accord it some special meaning.  The truth is that the causes of this scandal are complex, but one thing is certain: if people had not been bullied and cowed by idiots like you and were able to speak openly about certain subjects, those girls would not have been victimised.  The Left - people on this 'discussion' board - have had a hand in this.  Most especially hysterical nitwits like yourself.
> 
> If you think race can be disengaged from culture, then you are an ignorant fool.



So are you saying that this would not have happened if not for feminism?

If so, could you please provide some facts and logic to back that up ... ?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

Wtf does counter-factual mean?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 28, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It needs to be, imo, if we are definitively to overcome racism. When a person's physical characteristics indicating ancestry are no longer associated with particular cultural assumptions by people who know nothing else about them, we will finally live in a world where people can avoid being judged for physical characteristics indicating ancestry.



That sounds very neat and rather like something I'd read in a sociology textbook written by a 60s washed-up liberal turned thatcherite.  However, my concern is with reality.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You cannot disengage race from culture.  To hold that position is utterly counter-factual and idiotic.  <snip>....
> Who are you serving?



Some might say that to believe in the concept of different 'races' is _utterly counter-factual and idiotic._

Who are _you _serving?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 28, 2014)

That sounds very neat and rather like something I'd read in a sociology textbook written by a 60s washed-up liberal turned thatcherite.  However, my concern is with reality.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Wtf does counter-factual mean?



Find a dictionary.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

I'm also pretty appalled that people are attempting to grade 'different types of rape' fuck sake.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You cannot disengage race from culture.  To hold that position is utterly counter-factual and idiotic.  I think you know this.  You have a rather sinister agenda.  You spend a great deal of your time on here, which is rather sad in itself, but prompts me to ponder whether you are being paid - and if so, by whom?
> 
> Who are you serving?



The Zionist Lizards.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Find a dictionary.



TWAT.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 28, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> It's not like they just joined to to give a percieved 'The Left' a bashing is it?



They're probably from 'the left.'


----------



## Earendel (Aug 28, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> The Zionist Lizards.



Because the sexual assault of young white girls is hilarious, isn't it.  OK yah?  Oh jolly ha-ha.  It's only the proles!


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> That sounds very neat and rather like something I'd read in a sociology textbook written by a 60s washed-up liberal turned thatcherite.  However, my concern is with reality.




he'll be saying martin smith while fingering his rosary in a mo


poptyping said:


> I'm also pretty appalled that people are attempting to grade 'different types of rape' fuck sake.




the law does it, the law distinguishes between violent rapes and rapes. But the law is their law,  and so...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 28, 2014)

Earendel said:


> That sounds very neat and rather like something I'd read in a sociology textbook written by a 60s washed-up liberal turned thatcherite.  However, my concern is with reality.


It's something I see progress in. Real progress that gives me hope that 50 years from now, say, racism will be fading from view in places like the UK. That may sound overly optimistic, but it is something I think there is evidence for - comparing today with the 1960s, for instance, and seeing the changes _in reality_. 

There will still be all kinds of other problems, no doubt, concerning inequality, class and discrimination, but they won't be framed nearly as much on race as they are now. I really do believe that.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 28, 2014)

Ole said:


> You complete joker.


 Nope, not joking. 





> ]I've already made it clear how race/ethnicity is necessarily a part of the discussion here where it may not be elsewhere for e.g. Savile, because of the problems that appear to have arisen around it in the investigation, at a minimum.



It isn't necessary for you because like the mainstream/smokescreen debate the concept of race only seems to apply when we are talking about people who are not White.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 28, 2014)

poptyping said:


> TWAT.



No, I said find a dictionary.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Find a dictionary.



Counter-factual means 'find a dictionary'?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> It's not like they just joined to to give a percieved 'The Left' a bashing is it?



There do seem to be a few very new usernames on this thread all singing the same song as it goes. To be expected eh?


----------



## cesare (Aug 29, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Wtf does counter-factual mean?


That evaluations of reality are influenced by imagined alternatives to reality "counterfactual thoughts".


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Because the sexual assault of young white girls is hilarious, isn't it.  OK yah?  Oh jolly ha-ha.  It's only the proles!



Are you suggesting I'm posh? And what does my response to your tin-foilery have to do with joking about rape?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Counter-factual means 'find a dictionary'?



Oh ho-ho.  You're so humorous.

Since when does a discussion involve having to define commonly-used words?  It doesn't, unless the discussion is with people who are mentally-lazy, can't see obvious things and prefer plagiarising social science books to thinking.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Oh ho-ho.  You're so humorous.
> 
> Since when does a discussion involve having to define commonly-used words?  It doesn't, unless the discussion is with people who are mentally-lazy, can't see obvious things and prefer plagiarising social science books to thinking.



I'm from one of the most deprived places in the UK if you want to play prolier than thou btw.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Because the sexual assault of young white girls is hilarious, isn't it.  OK yah?  Oh jolly ha-ha.  It's only the proles!




Are you suggesting that the sexual abuse of White girls is somehow more funny to people than that of girls who are not White. I think the fact you make a distinction between girls who have been sexually abused on account of their skin colour and imagine others applying a value judgement is more than odd tbh...it's sick.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you suggesting I'm posh? And what does my response to your tin-foilery have to do with joking about rape?



You are joking about the sexual abuse of young white girls because you are poser.  You and almost-everyone else has spent this thread making excuses and avoiding the obvious.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You are joking about the sexual abuse of young white girls because you are poser.  You and almost-everyone else has spent this thread making excuses and avoiding the obvious.


'The obvious'? Go on then, enlighten us.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You are joking about the sexual abuse of young white girls because you are poser.  You and almost-everyone else has spent this thread making excuses and avoiding the obvious.



Actually, you're a dick. 

Have fun.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You are joking about the sexual abuse of young white girls because you are poser.  You and almost-everyone else has spent this thread making excuses and avoiding the obvious.


Just fucking state the obvious and fuck off then. Christ.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

This is Turbo Island.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You are joking about the sexual abuse of young white girls because you are poser.  You and almost-everyone else has spent this thread making excuses and avoiding the obvious.



No...you are getting a lot of attention so are not being avoided at all. I just wish you'd come out and own your racism and stop projecting your own value judgements onto everyone else.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 29, 2014)

All muzzies are peados,  obvs.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Are you suggesting that the sexual abuse of White girls is somehow more funny to people than that of girls who are not White. I think the fact you make a distinction between girls who have been sexually abused on account of their skin colour and imagine others applying a value judgement is more than odd tbh...it's sick.



I think you will find that if you go back and look at my comment it exposes you as a liar and a distorter.  You are trying to avoid a discussion of the obvious, and you will resort to anything - anything - including locking people up, ridicule, bullying, abuse, intimidation, lies, and now, it seems, permitting the abuse of young white children.

But to address your point directly, I condemn all forms of sexual abuse, regardless of the circumstances and the race or ethnicity of those involved.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Fuck off back to facebook memes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> you will resort to anything - anything - including locking people up, ridicule, bullying, abuse, intimidation, lies, and now, it seems, permitting the abuse of young white children.


Wow.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Don't feed it. It's facebook nobends.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Wow.



No, the truth.  You and the other self-righteous pruning posers on here are responsible for this.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Don't feed it. It's facebook nobends.


What does that mean? (not on facebook)


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> No...you are getting a lot of attention so are not being avoided at all. I just wish you'd come out and own your racism and stop projecting your own value judgements onto everyone else.



I just wish he had the stones to actually argue his case using facts and logic.

Pontificating doesn't count and acting snooty doesn't count.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> No, the truth.  You and the other self-righteous pruning posers on here are responsible for this.


It feels like you're skating around what you really want to say. Come on, out with the obvious.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> But to address your point directly, I condemn all forms of sexual abuse, regardless of the circumstances and the race or ethnicity of those involved.


Do you, for one fucking second, suggest anyone else on this thread is doing anything other than that?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

A bunch of dickends nudging and giggling with each other on facebook whilst encouraging each other to post OUTRAGEOUS shite on here for them to pull their nobs over.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I just wish he had the stones to actually argue his case using facts and logic.
> 
> Pontificating doesn't count.



You mean you're familiar with facts and logic?  I had gained the opposite impression from looking at this thread, what with the Chief Idiot telling you all that you need to de-couple race from culture.  Interesting line, that one.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I think you will find that if you go back and look at my comment it exposes you as a liar and a distorter.  You are trying to avoid a discussion of the obvious, and you will resort to anything - anything - including locking people up, ridicule, bullying, abuse, intimidation, lies, and now, it seems, permitting the abuse of young white children.
> 
> But to address your point directly, I condemn all forms of sexual abuse, regardless of the circumstances and the race or ethnicity of those involved.



I don't permit the abuse of any childen.
I don't apply a value judgement on account of their skin colour.
I am calling you out on your value judgements, evidenced on this thread which expose you as a liar and distorter, who clearly does care what colour of skin the victims of sexual abuse are, first and foremost. This is clear, made clearer by the fact you continuously refer to all those abused as White.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> A bunch of dickends nudging and giggling with each other on facebook whilst encouraging each other to post OUTRAGEOUS shite on here for them to pull their nobs over.


ah ok. Yeah they are very tedious now.


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> It's not like they just joined to to give a percieved 'The Left' a bashing is it?


No, we've been sent by MI5.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Do you, for one fucking second, suggest anyone else on this thread is doing anything other than that?



Learn to read.  Then go back and look at my comment and see what I was replying to.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You mean you're familiar with facts and logic?  I had gained the opposite impression from looking at this threat, what with the Chief Idiot telling you all that you need to re-couple race from culture.  Interesting line, that one.



Like I say, posturing doesn't convince, you need facts and logic.

The more you posture without actually making a case, the more of a dick you look.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Like I say, posturing doesn't convince, you need facts and logic.



Facts and logic about what or in support of what?  And why do you suppose logic is the summit of reason?


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I think you will find that if you go back and look at my comment it exposes you as a liar and a distorter.  You are trying to avoid a discussion of the obvious, and you will resort to anything - anything - including locking people up, ridicule, bullying, abuse, intimidation, lies, and now, it seems, permitting the abuse of young white children.



what about disabled white children? 

do they deserve support, or is it acceptable to say they should be put down?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Facts and logic about what or in support of what?  And why do you suppose logic is the summit of reason?


Tell us the obvious. We're clearly missing something.


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

This thread started well but just descended into non-sense and bickering.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

They never get ignored though. Well here goes the bigger derail then.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't permit the abuse of any childen.
> I don't apply a value judgement on account of their skin colour.
> I am calling you out on your value judgements, evidenced on this thread which expose you as a liar and distorter, *who clearly does care what colour of skin the victims of sexual abuse are, first and foremost. This is clear, made clearer by the fact you continuously refer to all those abused as White.*



The distortion is from you.  I am white and I do not like what is happening to my society, so I have a particular concern about the white victims of racially-motivated sexual assault.  It does not follow that I condone or that I am unconcerned about, or for, other victims.  But this discussion is about white victims, as explained in the Jay Report.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Facts and logic about what or in support of what?  And why do you suppose logic is the summit of reason?



Still waiting to see you argue your case rather than just posturing.

Show us some substance or fuck off back to Stormfront.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I am white and I do not like what is happening to my society, so I have a particular concern about the white victims of racially-motivated sexual assault.


Finally!


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> This thread started well but just descended into non-sense and bickering.



I wonder why that is?  Could it be because whenever anyone raises a perspective outside the ken of most contributors on here, the brain-computer crashes and you can't handle it?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Finally!



I also stated:  It does not follow that I condone or that I am unconcerned about, or for, other victims. But this discussion is about white victims, as explained in the Jay Report.

You quote selectively.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I wonder why that is?  Could it be because whenever anyone raises a perspective outside the ken of most contributors on here, the brain-computer crashes and you can't handle it?


Nah, we just can't stand racists.

Bye then.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Still waiting to see you argue your case rather than just posturing.
> 
> Show us some substance or fuck off back to Stormfront.



What case do you think I am making?

I should have thought it is for you to argue your case, not me.

You seem to be the one who's happy for the indigenous population to roll over and be Islamicised.

Perhaps you could share with us your facts and logic in support of that?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> They never get ignored though. Well here goes the bigger derail then.



.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> The distortion is from you.  I am white and I do not like what is happening to my society,


 Who's society?


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I wonder why that is?  Could it be because whenever anyone raises a perspective outside the ken of most contributors on here, the brain-computer crashes and you can't handle it?


Mate, I'm not having a go at you, it descended long before you joined (a page or two ago), believe me!


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nah, we just can't stand racists.
> 
> Bye then.



So someone who cares about white people is:

- a racist;

-a not deserving of participation in discussion;

??

Interesting...


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> What case do you think I am making?
> 
> I should have thought it is for you to argue your case, not me.
> 
> ...



More posturing. You seem to be a waste of time.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Is Cunnulingus pretending to not know the other clown?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You seem to be the one who's happy for the indigenous population to roll over and be Islamicised.


 I am indigenous and am not being Islamicised? How is it happening to you and not me?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Who's society?



My society.  The society that I grew up in.  The country that I am proud of.  The country that my ancestors helped to build.  The society that I take responsibility for.  You may be happy for us to become a Third World country in which white girls are used as prostitutes, but I'm not.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I am indigenous and am not being Islamicised? How is it happening to you and not me?



Because you are a blind idiot who cannot see what in front of your face.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I am white and I do not like what is happening to my society, so I have a particular concern about the white victims of racially-motivated sexual assault.


 So because you are white, you care more about White victims of sexual abuse?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> My society.  The society that I grew up in.  The country that I am proud of.  The country that my ancestors helped to build.  The society that I take responsibility for.  You may be happy for us to become a Third World country in which white girls are used as prostitutes, but I'm not.



That's more than 14 words.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> The country that my ancestors helped to build.



So you're a Roman cunt then?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So you're a Roman cunt then?


You're breaking your own rules, c66.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> More posturing. You seem to be a waste of time.



Then leave!  If you think I am wasting your time, then go!  My question is reasonable - it is for you to justify your position, not me.  Why should I accept your sell-out?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> The distortion is from you.  I am white and I do not like what is happening to my society, so I have a particular concern about the white victims of racially-motivated sexual assault.  It does not follow that I condone or that I am unconcerned about, or for, other victims.  But this discussion is about white victims, as explained in the Jay Report.


Diamond, is that you?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Oh ho-ho.  You're so witty.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

'helped to build' 

So from Ireland then? Or Jamaica?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Diamond, is that you?



Are you hearing voices again?  Best see a doctor.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You're breaking your own rules, c66.



It's the ironing.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Then leave!  If you think I am wasting your time, then go!  My question is reasonable - it is for you to justify your position, not me.  Why should I accept your sell-out?



So you are suggesting that we have to justify not being neo-nazi shitbags like you?

Not really seeing a compelling reason to do that. 

I'm pretty happy not being a neo-nazi shitbag and don't think it needs justification.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> 'helped to build'
> 
> So from Ireland then? Or Jamaica?



This is so original.  I'll have to use this material.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It's the ironing.


Finished my cider now. No more for me.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> My society.  The society that I grew up in.  The country that I am proud of.  The country that my ancestors helped to build.  The society that I take responsibility for.


 No not yours. You don't own it, nor do you have exclusive rights to misrepresent it. I can say all of those things too.



> You may be happy for us to become a Third World country in which white girls are used as prostitutes, but I'm not.


 You seem to think that White children being abused and used as prostitutes in this country is a new thing and specific to cases where some of the perpetrators are not White.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> So you are suggesting that we have to justify not being neo-nazi shitbags like you?
> 
> Not really seeing a compelling reason to do that.



No - what you have to justify is your feeble-mindedness and cowardice that allows young white girls to be raped in their own country.  The policy implications of these scandals are perfectly plain and clear, except to people whose minds are befuddled by ideology.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> This is so original.  I'll have to use this material.



If your 'ancestors' only 'helped' to build this country, they obviously were there part time. Lots of immigrants did so especially after WWII. It was a genuine query.


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> So you're a Roman cunt then?



fucking immigrants


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> This is so original.  I'll have to use this material.


So then, who is your 'white race', the one you identify with, the one who did the building?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> No - what you have to justify is your feeble-mindedness and cowardice that allows young white girls to be raped in their own country.  The policy implications of these scandals are perfectly plain and clear, except to people whose minds are befuddled by ideology.



So just out of interest, do you visit Anders Breivik in prison or just send him fan letters?


----------



## JimW (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> This is so original.  I'll have to use this material.


Your problem (well, the one you revealed first) is assuming your view of race reflects the reality, which it clearly doesn't if you think it's something inseparable from culture


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> No - what you have to justify is your feeble-mindedness and cowardice that allows young white girls to be raped in their own country.  The policy implications of these scandals are perfectly plain and clear, except to people whose minds are befuddled by ideology.



Explain: 

1) Is it worse to be raped in 'your own' country than another?

2) Do you know that the majority of abuse on young white girls happens not only in 'their own country' but 'in their own home'?

You despicable fucking shitstain.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> No not yours. You don't own it, nor do you have exclusive rights to misrepresent it. I can say all of those things too.



I didn't say I 'own' it, nitwit.  What I am suggesting is that societies that lack cohesiveness might not be governed very well and might not be pleasant places to live in.  Unless and until you can acknowledge that there is an ecological connection between a people and the soil and that this needs to be respected, we are just going to continue with this trouble and strife.  It doesn't require a great brain to see that most people ideally wish to live among their own kind - that being, people of similar culture and ethnicity.  You think otherwise because you are wedded to an ideological position that sees 'race' as a divisive concept.  I am suggesting that this needn't be the case.  It is just natural for people to want to be among their own extended family.



Rutita1 said:


> You seem to think that White children being abused and used as prostitutes in this country is a new thing and specific to cases where some of the perpetrators are not White.



No, you're just reading what you want into my comments.  You're attempting a smear because you don't like the consequences of the plain facts in front of you.  In short - you're in denial.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> In short - you're in denial.



Well that settles it...Rape was an unknown act until all those Brown/Black folk rocked up in this country. You just check the history books...WAS NOT A KNOWN OR DONE THING...still isn't by White people. Not in their culture see. Fact.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Explain:
> 
> 1) Is it worse to be raped in 'your own' country than another?
> 
> ...



You are, quite simply, a facetious, childish, pea-brained idiot.  Have you read the Jay Report?  Have you followed the news story at all?  You are trying to conflate different phenomena because, in your feeble, childish, selfish mind, you simply cannot accept that you might have been wrong all these years and that these 'racist idiots' might in fact have a point.


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> No not yours. You don't own it, nor do you have exclusive rights to misrepresent it. I can say all of those things too.
> 
> You seem to think that White children being abused and used as prostitutes in this country is a new thing and specific to cases where some of the perpetrators are not White.



not only that, but that the abuse of white children has to be treated as a special case, because they are worth more than non white children.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Unless and until you can acknowledge that there is an ecological connection between a people and the soil and that this needs to be respected, we are just going to continue with this trouble and strife.  It doesn't require a great brain to see that most people ideally wish to live among their own kind - that being, people of similar culture and ethnicity.  You think otherwise because you are wedded to an ideological position that sees 'race' as a divisive concept.  I am suggesting that this needn't be the case.  It is just natural for people to want to be among their own extended family.



This is almost Victoriana.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I didn't say I 'own' it, nitwit.  What I am suggesting is that societies that lack cohesiveness might not be governed very well and might not be pleasant places to live in.  Unless and until you can acknowledge that there is an ecological connection between a people and the soil and that this needs to be respected, we are just going to continue with this trouble and strife.  It doesn't require a great brain to see that most people ideally wish to live among their own kind - that being, people of similar culture and ethnicity.  You think otherwise because you are wedded to an ideological position that sees 'race' as a divisive concept.  I am suggesting that this needn't be the case.  It is just natural for people to want to be among their own extended family.
> .


Well go on then: the soil's been around for longer than human beings. Which of the many groups who have inhabited the British Isles do you think have this special connection?


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Well that settles it...Rape was an unknown act until all those Brown/Black folk rocked up in this country. You just check the history books...WAS NOT A KNOWN OR DONE THING...still isn't by White people. Not in their culture see. Fact.



there were no prostituted children in this country before mass immigration?


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Well that settles it...Rape was an unknown act until all those Brown/Black folk rocked up in this country. You just check the history books...WAS NOT A KNOWN OR DONE THING...still isn't by White people. Not in their culture see. Fact.



That is not what I stated above and that is not my position.  You know this.  You are just a poor sorry sod who simply cannot confront the truth.  I know this is difficult.


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

toggle said:


> there were no prostituted children in this country before mass immigration?



I am not suggesting that all abuse and prostitution are a function of immigration.  Are you really this feeble-minded?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

toggle said:


> there were no prostituted children in this country before mass immigration?



So it seems.


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I am not suggesting that all abuse and prostitution are a function of immigration.  Are you really this feeble-minded?



so what is your view on protecting disabled white children?


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2014)

"Soil"


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> So it seems.



refiles books on victorian prostitution on fiction shelf


----------



## Earendel (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> So it seems.



Again, not what I have said at all.  I realise this is difficult, but you are displaying the same collective mindset that led to the abuse.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

All this 'nitwit' and 'feebleminded' stuff makes you sound like an insecure teenage wanker. 

We're used to adolescent Ayn Rand enthusiasts talking like that here. They don't last.

It doesn't impress even a bit, even if you have shinier jackboots than they do.

If you want a serious conversation, you should drop it. If you can make a case, do it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 29, 2014)

The insults are interesting too. Nitwit, sorry sod, feeble brained etc...


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You are, quite simply, a facetious, childish, pea-brained idiot.  Have you read the Jay Report?  Have you followed the news story at all?  You are trying to conflate different phenomena because, in your feeble, childish, selfish mind, you simply cannot accept that you might have been wrong all these years and that these 'racist idiots' might in fact have a point.



You mean the racist idiots who also have paedophiles and abusers amongst their ranks? I forgot that white supremacist rape isn't as bad as muslim rape. Where's your thread about those fuckers?


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I am not suggesting that all abuse and prostitution are a function of immigration.  Are you really this feeble-minded?



so what is all abuse a product of?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Power. Which this cunt probably supports.


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> The insults are interesting too. Nitwit, sorry sod, feeble brained etc...



do a search for his previous posts, what kind of lying shitbag apologist this one really is


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

All the people you're talking to are modern Britain Earendel. You lost. It's game over. We won.


----------



## JimW (Aug 29, 2014)

Wilf said:


> "Soil"


He's only gone and soiled himself (and the thread)


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Power. Which this cunt probably supports.



as long as it's white power


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

toggle said:


> as long as it's white power



Is that a brand of washing powder?


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Is that a brand of washing powder?



he will need it if he keeps soiling himself


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

It'd be kind of interesting to have a grown up conversation with a smart neo-nazi about this shit, but all that 'I am a superior intellect and you are all fools' crap doesn't really suggest that's a possibility.

Playing point-scoring games with a posturing wanker doesn't appeal.


----------



## Wilf (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> .  Unless and until you can acknowledge that there is an ecological connection between a people and the soil and that this needs to be respected, we are just going to continue with this trouble and strife.  It .


 Oh come on, I'm sure you'd like to clarify what you mean about this connection between 'people' and the 'soil'?  I seem to have heard something about that before, just can't bring it to mind.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> It'd be kind of interesting to have a grown up conversation with a neo-nazi about this shit, but all that 'I am a superior intellect and you are all fools' crap doesn't really suggest that's a possibility.


It is possible - the old red action boards had some (not as much as is remembered in myth) and Joey Owens from up your way was allowed on matb for a while. Of course it became, _you're joey owens,you're a cunt _- which was fair enough. Not many people happy with the then mods decision to let him post. NIgel Irritable to the fore.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It is possible - the old red action boards had some (not as much as is remembered in myth) and Joey Owens from up your way was allowed on matb for a while.



I'm pretty sure I used to do karate with him back in the day.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I'm pretty sure I used to do karate with him back in the day.


He was a proper kickboxer international level (or whatever it is) so yep - you've prob given and taken one for the team.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Is that a brand of washing powder?



Aryan Automatic.

For your whiter than white whites (credit: someone else on the internet).


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Yeah well, long derail there.

Terry O'Neils break-away from Red Triangle, which is where I'm pretty sure I trained with Joey, was hardcore and if not explicitly fash-friendly, at least not real hostile.

They had all kinds of self-identified mercenaries, soldier of fortune types, bouncer wannabes and gangsters etc.

You can imagine.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> and Joey Owens from up your way was allowed on matb for a while.



He's a fucking psycho.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Yeah well, long derail there.
> 
> Terry O'Neils break-away from Red Triangle was hardcore and if not explicitly fash-friendly, at least not hostile.
> 
> ...


Sounds horrible. Did any of them actually go on to proper blagging for euro-fascists?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Sounds horrible. Did any of them actually go on to proper blagging for euro-fascists?



Not sure. Mostly they seemed like local thugs rather than Stefano Delle Chiaie types.

I loved the quality of the training, but didn't like the company, so didn't stick long.

If "Joey" is who I think he was, he seemed more like a bouncer wannabe.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Not sure. Mostly they seemed like local thugs rather than Stefano Delle Chiaie types.
> 
> If "Joey" is who I think he was, he seemed more like a bouncer wannabe.


Owens did end up running a lot of doors - i can't say if they were for him or bigger beasts.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

He brags about his flirtations with martial arts in his book which is free online.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> He brags about his flirtations with martial arts in his book which is free online.


He did more than flirt mate. Have you read it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

I've read the first bit where he flirted and the beginnings of his NF endevours. I should finish it really. Sounds a deeply unpleasant character. That murder is murky as fuck.


----------



## cesare (Aug 29, 2014)

He was mainly talking about the book, and the arson attack on his home, when he posted on MATB iirc?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Owens did end up running a lot of doors - i can't say if they were for him or bigger beasts.



The two 'big beasts' on the Merseyside door scene back then were Terry O'Neill and Gary Spiers. 

I mostly trained with the latter but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have entertained neo-nazi's for a moment being half-Maori and on the receiving end of all kinds of racist shit down under.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

cesare said:


> He was mainly talking about the book, and the arson attack on his home, when he posted on MATB iirc?


Yep, he was on topic, a few other things that needed to done to make sure it was him, but yep longest convo with them i'm ever seen/took part in (on line)


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> The two 'big beasts' on the Merseyside door scene back then were Terry O'Neill and Gary Spiers.
> 
> I mostly trained with the latter but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have entertained neo-nazi's for a moment being half-Maori and on the receiving end of all kinds of racist shit down under.


Don't doubt your word at all bernie - but he _was_ working doors. Maybe for the other feller or just keeping a lid on it. But he was working doors.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Unless and until you can acknowledge that there is *an ecological connection between a people and the soil* and that this needs to be respected, we are just going to continue with this trouble and strife.  It doesn't require a great brain to see that most people ideally wish to live among their own kind - that being, people of similar culture and ethnicity.


Blut und Boden, you mean?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

Alas, I'm not seeing any neo-nazi shitbags actually engaging in honest debate here. 

This issue is such that I for one would be interested in talking with them about.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Don't doubt your word at all bernie - but he _was_ working doors. Maybe for the other feller or just keeping a lid on it. But he was working doors.



I think he worked Terry's crew, but Terry and Gary were kind of 'bouncers of last resort'  that you hired if you had serious gang issues, and a lot of their students had their own gigs doing lower intensity stuff.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 29, 2014)

I don't think there's any debate to be had with neo-nazis and it's a puzzle that they could find their way here in the first place.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I think he worked Terry's crew, but Terry and Gary were kind of 'bouncers of last resort'  that you hired if you had serious gang issues, and a lot of their students had their own gigs doing lower intensity stuff.


Sounds about right- the more grief the better the night for joey, not going home with your money having a laugh with drunk kids. Nah,i'm here for the serious business.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

My 'ex' brother (I hate the cunt) used to work for the CPS. He used to tell me about his work, and told me that over 90% of the sexual offense cases he was involved in (both female and male rape) involved members of the Pakistani community.

I have no official figures for this but as much as I hate the cunt, I have no reason to believe he was lying.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 29, 2014)

Could that be something to do with who the polis arrested? Notwithstanding the way the Rotherham report has been reported, the police even now show little reluctance to lay off people of colour who do things like walk down the street or drive cars.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> My 'ex' brother (I hate the cunt) used to work for the CPS. He used to tell me about his work, and told me that over 90% of the sexual offense cases he was involved in (both female and male rape) involved members of the Pakistani community.
> 
> I have no official figures for this but as much as I hate the cunt, I have no reason to believe he was lying.


Thanks so much for this.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Could that be something to do with who the polis arrested? Notwithstanding the way the Rotherham report has been reported, the police even now show little reluctance to lay off people of colour who do things like walk down the street or drive cars.


It's beause he's a noted bullshitter.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks so much for this.


You're welcome... Have you got anything insightful to say?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> Unintentional rape? Didnt understand he was committing rape?
> Rape is rape...if you do not have permission to have sex then it is rape...yet you spout that shit and have the front to get indignant...fucking hell...you have some fucked up views



you're an idiot


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> You're welcome... Have you got anything insightful to say?


Do i have to? Did you count that post of yours as insightful? That's the standard that i have to meet is it?


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> It's beause he's a noted bullshitter.


OK. I'm clearly not getting all the nuances here. This is a serious subject. I'll shut up now.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

I'm not helping, but this thread needs killing and one that looks the same put in its place. The worst of u75 today.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> OK. I'm clearly not getting all the nuances here. This is a serious subject. I'll shut up now.


No nuances, he's just a fucking late night clown.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Do i have to? Did you count that post of yours as insightful? That's the standard that i have to meet is it?


No... I wasn't quoting figures, because I don't have any. I was merely quoting the ramblings of a cunt I hate... but he had no reason to lie to me.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> No... I wasn't quoting figures, because I don't have any. I was merely quoting the ramblings of a cunt I hate... but he had no reason to lie to me.


So no, you have nothing insightful to say. Why don't you fuck off then?


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> So no, you have nothing insightful to say. Why don't you fuck off then?


I was quoting what was said to me... If you don't want to hear it, why don't you fuck off?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

But i'm calling you a bullshitter (hence your reputation for making stuff up - a bullshitter in the demotic) over this story. You made it up. Fuck off.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> But i'm calling you a bullshitter over this story. You made it up. Fuck off.


Awwww... bless!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> Awwww... bless!


Game over lad. Go bother your sister for one last line. Don't wake mammy though.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Game over lad. Go bother your sister for one last line. Don't wake mammy though.


Awwww... butchers isn't easy about something, so it didn't happen...


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 29, 2014)

Not picking up on the current discussions, just wanted to make something clear that I hope some people sympathise with. I've not paid massive attention to the deluge of coverage on this issue, and I've not had to in order to get the flavour. Although there has been much sensible commentary, the usual nasty sensationalist hate agenda seems to have predominated.

I oppose racism, sexism and homophobia.

It's beneath disgusting that opportunist pricks with such shallow agendas exploit the rape of children to try and make it seem that such a simple position ought to be apologised for.

It's beneath stupid that anyone falls for their cherry-picking sanctimonious narratives, but it they appear to be leading much of public discourse round by the nose.

Cesspit politics seem to be the rage, even more than usual. How did it all get so nasty?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Typical, i spend ages thinking about this, then write something  i thought captured it, i  end up calling a worthless wind up merchant a junkie.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Does anyone here have grounds to deny this:



			
				 dr_herbz said:
			
		

> My 'ex' brother (I hate the cunt) used to work for the CPS. He used to tell me about his work, and told me that over 90% of the sexual offense cases he was involved in (both female and male rape) involved members of the Pakistani community.
> 
> I have no official figures for this but as much as I hate the cunt, I have no reason to believe he was lying.



_speak liberal, let ye be known_. Damned in  the eye of all evidence sourcing and interpretation. Damned. _And all them posh lezzers_.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Typical, i spend ages thinking about this, then write something  i thought captured it, i  end up calling a worthless wind up merchant a junkie.


You should spend more time working on your insults


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Does anyone here have grounds to deny this:
> 
> 
> speak liberal, let ye be known.


I was merely forwarding what me 'ex' brother had told me. I had no reason to disbelieve him, but I'm open to correction.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> You should spend more time working on your insults


Not so much


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> I was merely forwarding what me 'ex' brother had told me. I had no reason to disbelieve him, but I'm open to correction.


Uh huh, uh huh.

Great choice of thread again. So that's me. 

Catch me later on your other make a fight i hate you lefties intervention.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not so much


I'm not trolling here, or trying to piss anyone off. I'm merely (apprehensively) passing on what I'd heard.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Uh huh, uh huh.
> 
> Great choice of thread again. So that's me.
> 
> Catch me later on your other make a fight i hate you lefties intervention.


It's not a 'choice' of thread, you fuckwit. It was a thread that I really didn't want to engage in but amid accusations of racism, I felt I should mention this... but it is, of course, open to scrutiny, as is every post on here!


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> How did it all get so nasty?


If you mean this thread I'd guess alcohol plays a significant part  

If you mean more generally,  obviously the situation in Rotherham plays to a lot of hot-button racist and bigoted agendas, and then under that you get a whole layer of people who feel that it's necessary to 'address' (read accept) reactionary terms of reference to the discussion because otherwise we "concede the platform" to "the right". Blair-style triangulation (and its less intelligent progeny) has a lot to answer for.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks Lurdan, I meant more generally.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

I just had a nasty PM from Butcherswankstain... the orange apologist cunt!

Ah well... it takes all kinds


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

The Needle Blog had the idea that it would be useful to list out all of the cases of sexual exploitation and what CEOPs call 'localised grooming' involving people of Asian ethnicity. The provisional list posted is a depressingly long one and undoubtedly provides food for thought.

http://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/muslim-child-sex-grooming-gangs-in-the-uk/

Sadly they've chosen to headline it
*'Muslim Child Sex Grooming Gangs In The UK' *
and the poster, Gojam confirms exactly what he means in response to a comment by WCI underneath :-



> WCI - I guess the crux of this debate is having used Islam as a defining category, does this or any other religious identity determine abusive behavior?





> gojam - Yes, as it is Islamic cultural behaviour.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbz said:


> I just had a nasty PM from Butcherswankstain... the orange apologist cunt!
> 
> Ah well... it takes all kinds


No you didn't. You sent me a pm out of the blue. I replied with "fuck off".


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 29, 2014)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...oring-Asian-thugs-who-target-white-girls.html

One of many articles linked to those above.

...Here's an excerpt from part of the article....

"Adil Rashid, who had “raped” an underage girl, was spared a prison term after the judge heard that the naïve 18-year-old attended an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless. Rashid told psychologists he had no idea that having sex with a willing 13-year-old was against the law; besides, his education had taught him to believe that “women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground”.


----------



## cesare (Aug 29, 2014)

^ May 2013


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2014)

Well, what a fucking shame. butchersapron (sorry for tagging but it seems rude not to these days) post yesterday on race and culture was excellent, real clarity of thinking there, really useful. This is such an important issue with so much to think about I can't believe there's been a derail like this. I'm really fucking angry about it. 

I'd like it if we can discuss rape without calling people rape apologists. It's not helpful. Calling people pieces of shit isn't helpful either. It's good to challenge people without using these terms. The use of these terms is not evidence of a more radical position.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You are joking about the sexual abuse of young white girls because you are poser.  You and almost-everyone else has spent this thread making excuses and avoiding the obvious.


Poser? For disagreeing with you?
You are so fucking unbelievably disingenuous in what you aregue.
The problem for you and others arguing your point of view is not child abuse, the lack of action by those entrusted to protect vulnerable children and the buck passing being employed by those in power...your collective problem is "white" girls being being target by 6 pakistani men (you have referred to "white" girls several times)... from which you have made all sorts of leaps to make it a fact that there is a problem in the pakistani community as they are more predisposed to this sort of crime. No facts are used, just "I read it so its true" logic is used. I have read lots but it dont make it a fact. There's a book called the bell curve from the mid 1990s which is supposed to be an academic book ... it has been quoted thousandsof times to justify why black men are more likely to be criminals due to genetics...that book is beyond scientifically flawed yet people quoted it like it was a fact.
This is what people have done here. The figures available picked and chose what counted as men grooming children for sex...and low and behold for pakistani men to be disproportionately more likely to commit this crime. Yet when child sexual abuse convictions and investigations take place they find pakistani men are no more likely to be involved than white men.
Inconvenient truths such as groups of white men abusing and grooming children not being talked about in terms of their race are dismissed by you and your ilk as "being different because...it isn't the same" points to you having a need for this case to be seen a race issue and if anyone disagree you insult them and then play the pc gone mad card and finally claim you are bullied and we dont care about white kids.
Your arguments on this thread are racist pure and simple. Stop whining at people who disagree with your view. 
Everyone should care about children being abused by adults...not about white children being abused by pakistani men...because of obvious reasons. 
ALL CHILDREN DESERVE PROTECTION
ALL ABUSERS MUST BE STOPPED AND CAUGHT
On top of this you and others have come across like the other cases mentioned, like the catholic priests, politicians, celebrities are lesser crimes 
All of the above makes me mistrust your motives


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2014)

The guy is a troll. Don't feed the troll. Jesus.


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

Wow! This thread has got even worse. A complete waste of time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Is Cunnulingus pretending to not know the other clown?


ban bancunnulingus


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> There's something really depressing and worrying about the way that this debate is going - for 4 decades now the leading elements of the far right has sought to hide it's racism by substituting the word culture for race. Instead of there being a hierarchy of races there is now a flat multiplicity of cultures, all equal but all tending to undermined by culture mixing, so separate but equal cultures is the best way to defend this vibrant diversity. Culture simply replaced race. And during that 4 decades anti-racists pointed out the true underlying racist nature of this approach and it's transparent racist motivations. On this thread and in conversations i've had outside of the internet i'm finding anti-racists arguing _that culture and race are actually now one and the same._ So to argue as the UK Muslim Women's Network did in a report on CSE they produced in a year ago that:
> 
> _highlighted that Asian girls were being sexually exploited where authorities were failing to identify or support them. They were most vulnerable to men from their own communities who manipulated cultural norms to prevent them from reporting their abuse._
> 
> ...


 
So can we start again from here?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 29, 2014)

A brief piece from an academic about Rotherham, and other such cases of CSE in working class communities, which does attempt to frame within a social/cultural context without resorting to race:-



> it is far from clear that either the report’s author or the media framing of the story has got to the heart of the problem. The inquiry was too limited to go thoroughly into the social context within which these events occurred. Consequently, it left open the opportunity for yet another search for professional scapegoats. The situations it describes are not new, are not particularly associated with racism or political correctness, and raise serious questions about the nature of some traditional working class communities and their representatives.
> 
> The real challenge of Rotherham, then, is not that of sending a few hapless local councillors or social service managers to the guillotine. It is to think about what would bring cultural change to those poor areas that have been left behind by modernization. They exist everywhere and are neglected everywhere, except when it is convenient to demonize them for their backwardness or to mobilize them for some atavistic political agenda. Rotherham is not about service failures but about what sort of a nation we want to live in – and how we engage every citizen with that vision.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> So can we start again from here?



Excellent idea. 

Apologies for not contributing anything back but I really appreciate the thoughtful posts on this.


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## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

brogdale said:


> A brief piece from an academic about Rotherham, and other such cases of CSE in working class communities, which does attempt to frame within a social/cultural context without resorting to race:-


 
This is so true. Left behind by modernisation. On my estate we have flowers and wifi and a Subway, but nothing in the way of actually looking at the people there and thinking about how it can be different, real change, for the generations down the line. I can see the grand kids of the kids now being in exactly the same place, doing the same things, with no prospects.


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> ban bancunnulingus


What's all this picking on me?


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> you're an idiot


Why ? For questioning the concept of unintentional rape?
In which case I am happy to be be an idiot...rape is rape ... unintentional rape ffs


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> So can we start again from here?


Agree totally with the apron on this one. 

I would add that perhaps some of the conflation between race and culture may come from insisting that race is a category whose interpretation is shaped by culture. One obvious example would be how, in a majority-white place such as the UK, a person with one black parent and one white parent may be widely considered 'black' by the wider population, whereas the same person in a majority-black place such as Angola may be widely considered 'white'. Racial categories contain lots of unconsciously held assumptions that are very much culturally dependent. But that does not in any way mean that it is a concept referring to culture.

The racists on here last night typified the confusion on this, insisting variously on 'white' or 'indigenous' as a racial category to which they nailed their allegiance, but in order for that allegiance to have any meaning, they had to tag cultural baggage onto it, at which point their categories immediately became anachronistic and internally incoherent.


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## comrade spurski (Aug 29, 2014)

Dr_Herbzost: 13366858 said:
			
		

> My 'ex' brother (I hate the cunt) used to work for the CPS. He used to tell me about his work, and told me that over 90% of the sexual offense cases he was involved in (both female and male rape) involved members of the Pakistani community.
> 
> I have no official figures for this but as much as I hate the cunt, I have no reason to believe he was lying.



Thats strange cos I knew this bloke, fucking hated him, and he said 90% of everything you said was a complete lie made up cos you were a racist ..... I have no proof to back this up but, as much as I hated him, I have no reason to disbelieve him.

There....see how easy it is to write bollocks.


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## Dr_Herbz (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> No you didn't. You sent me a pm out of the blue. I replied with "fuck off".


And that wasn't a nasty reply to a perfectly polite PM? You no mates cunt?


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Agree totally with the apron on this one.
> 
> I would add that perhaps some of the conflation between race and culture may come from insisting that race is a category whose interpretation is shaped by culture. One obvious example would be how, in a majority-white place such as the UK, a person with one black parent and one white parent may be widely considered 'black' by the wider population, whereas the same person in a majority-black place such as Angola may be widely considered 'white'. Racial categories contain lots of unconsciously held assumptions that are very much culturally dependent. But that does not in any way mean that it is a concept referring to culture.
> 
> The racists on here last night typified the confusion on this, insisting variously on 'white' or 'indigenous' as a racial category to which they nailed their allegiance, but in order for that allegiance to have any meaning, they had to tag cultural baggage onto it, at which point their categories immediately became anachronistic and internally incoherent.


 
Yes! What strikes me about the racists pov is that it simply comes down to "I want everyone around me to be white." There is nothing more to their argument than that. Our country is everyone in it, whether they have just arrived, moved here a generation ago or can trace their heritage back to the Stone Age.

i also think there is a frustration for racists in this country that they cannot define their culture in an exclusively British way, define it so as to exclude the people they are racist against.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> i also think there is a frustration for racists in this country that they cannot define their culture in an exclusively British way, define it so as to exclude the people they are racist against.


Yep, they try to construct a very silly, ahistorical and entirely meaningless category 'indigenous', which simply ignores the history of the country from around 1945 backwards. 

Thing is, butchersapron was right last night. They've already lost this one. They're stuck back in the 1960s with Enoch Powell. Even then they were already losing - they were always losing - but now they've lost.


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## Idris2002 (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Agree totally with the apron on this one.
> 
> I would add that perhaps some of the conflation between race and culture may come from insisting that race is a category whose interpretation is shaped by culture. One obvious example would be how, in a majority-white place such as the UK, a person with one black parent and one white parent may be widely considered 'black' by the wider population, whereas the same person in a majority-black place such as Angola may be widely considered 'white'. Racial categories contain lots of unconsciously held assumptions that are very much culturally dependent. But that does not in any way mean that it is a concept referring to culture.
> 
> The racists on here last night typified the confusion on this, insisting variously on 'white' or 'indigenous' as a racial category to which they nailed their allegiance, but in order for that allegiance to have any meaning, they had to tag cultural baggage onto it, at which point their categories immediately became anachronistic and internally incoherent.



A supervisor of mine who was in Liberia in the 60s told me she would regularly meet African-Americans who had come over to West Africa as a solidarity thing, and were puzzled to be referred to by locals with a term that meant, basically, "foreigner" and was applied to white and black foreigners alike.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/police-hid-the-truth-about-abuse-1-6811668



> South Yorkshire Police ‘hid’ the ‘true extent’ of serious crime and left vulnerable victims ‘unprotected or at risk’ a damning watchdog report has found – just days after the Rotherham sex abuse scandal was made public.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Beating up miners, Hillsborough, hitting and arresting disabled pensioners and covering up systematic rape of children. The SYP.


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## malatesta32 (Aug 29, 2014)

and the EDL are commemorating the victims by turning up and getting pissed. fucken vultures along with NF, BF and eejit infidullards.


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## J Ed (Aug 29, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> and the EDL are commemorating the victims by turning up and getting pissed. fucken vultures along with NF, BF and eejit infidullards. View attachment 60204



The EDL thread is on the other forum


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## malatesta32 (Aug 29, 2014)

this is still pertinent. the far right are trying to make political capital out of this appalling situation.


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## brogdale (Aug 29, 2014)

J Ed said:


> http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/police-hid-the-truth-about-abuse-1-6811668
> 
> Beating up miners, Hillsborough, hitting and arresting disabled pensioners and covering up systematic rape of children. The SYP.



Very accurate 'mission statement'.

Their own attempt...


> Effective procurement supports South Yorkshire Police in achieving its policy aims and objectives and helps to deliver high quality services, which will meet the current and future needs of local people based on value for money.
> 
> The role of effective procurement is crucial in achieving South Yorkshire Police's mission statement:-
> 
> ...


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> Well, what a fucking shame. butchersapron (sorry for tagging but it seems rude not to these days) post yesterday on race and culture was excellent, real clarity of thinking there, really useful. This is such an important issue with so much to think about I can't believe there's been a derail like this. I'm really fucking angry about it.



I agree. I was ruminating over one paragraph in butchersapron's post



butchersapron said:


> And this culture that's talked about, it's not pakistani people, let alone pakistani men or pakistani descent men - that would be to racialise it (or to mistake a nation for a race) again. A culture that is heavily male dominated, with women traditionally second class people, with that culture and that dominance authorised by religion (regardless of whether it's a correct or just reading of what the religion commands) transplanted into another country where these traditional ties are again reinforced in order to maintain community cohesion (and then supported and encouraged in this by official top-down variants of multi-culturalism - and more on that when i post about the states responses) is what this culture is. It could be irish-catholic culture in the pre-and inter-war years and many other examples of cultures. It should not need to be said that these cultures do not stand in for the entirety of the societies that produced these cultures or the individuals who make it up.



I get mildly annoyed about the idea expressed in some posts in this thread (not butchersaprons I should say) that there is some direct transmission belt from some (generally caricatured) notion of 'traditional' Pakistani culture and the actions of rapist criminals in the UK today. If organised child abuse is some logical/inevitable outcome of this cultural background how come it didn't manifest itself in the older generations in Asian communities? Misogynist attitudes in any community or family clearly feed into (and off) misogynist actions but they don't cause them. Most people aren't helpless slaves to their prejudices - in fact their prejudices are generally just the ways they have learned to/choose to talk about their misogynist behaviour.

I'm a little reluctant to pontificate in this area (he said) but it seems to me that underlying a lot of this is a manifestation of second-generation issues. It's an (unacceptable and unforgiveable) response to being half-in and half-out of  two communities and being at home in neither. For some people that takes the form of clinging to certainties and to rigid self-created identities - extreme machismo, inflexible religious certainties are examples. If I'm right about that it follows that domestic tyranny (for example) amongst this 'second-generation' isn't expressing 'traditional values' at all - it's expressing a reaction directly against them and at the same time against the loss of certainties and clearly defined status which went with them.

These sorts of issues and behaviours are scarcely unique to Asian communities or indeed to immigrant communities. There are clear parallels in my mind with the cuntish behaviour and attitudes of some of the Angry Young Men generation of the 1950s (John Osborne's 'Jimmy Porter' is a repellent poster boy) who were halfway in and halfway out of two different class-communities.

hmm, well I could blather on about that but maybe it would be better to let people tell me where I'm talking bollocks 

The other thing that pisses me off is the stream of people demanding that we ACkNOWLEDGE these people are Pakistani (as if there was any fucking secret about it) while deliberately refusing to acknowledge that they are criminals. It's hardly as if the concept of groups from immigrant communities networking together into criminal sub-cultures is a novel one. Are yardies or triads expressing 'traditional values' ? Criminal sub-cultures develop and express their own values and codes.And while some will cloak themselves in notions of tradition, (like the Mafia family which set up an anti-defamation organization to counter 'slander' against Italians), all the better to prey on their own community, this is transparent bullshit. The values they are 'expressing' are those of their criminal culture.

Which is one of the unforgiveable things about what has happened in Rotherham. This activity was allowed to go unchecked for so long that it clearly developed into a semi-organized and self-reinforcing criminal sub-culture. I quoted the section of the Jay report about the role of taxi drivers and firms a few pages back. That sort of criminal networking doesn't spring up overnight.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

What strikes me about the police's part in this is that their culture was the barrier to protection and justice for these people. Individually the police attitudes towards females meant they didn't see them as victims of crime but as asking for it. The fact that it's a male culture reinforced these attitudes. Even the class difference between the police and these people played a part. The middle class police, paid a wage that means they can afford to live in suburbia disconnected them from these working class people. And the clear contempt they had for anyone unlike them and the culture of covering up any failures all worked together to leave these people at the mercy of the paedophiles.

When I think of it like that and then think of Muslim/Pakistani women and girls being the most targeted I don't see them being protected any time soon. I don't think this will make any difference to their lives at all.


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## nino_savatte (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> because i didn't say that no-one else rapes or grooms, that's how you know. and as for the media's emphasis on 'race', that's obvious. my emphasis was on a cultural issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Utter rubbish. So how about Sidney Cooke? Would you say that grooming is typical of White English culture?


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## nino_savatte (Aug 29, 2014)

_angel_ said:


> Why are you asking _me_ about the media?


It's a fair question. Have a think about it.


----------



## nino_savatte (Aug 29, 2014)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. It isn't reminiscent at all. For reasons which have already been explained. Grow up.


Yes, it is. What you and the others refuse to address is patriarchy. Child sexual abuse cuts across all cultures. What you and the others are also keen to avoid is the issue of class.


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## treelover (Aug 29, 2014)

According to local radio The 'young british muslims' are having an 'open and frank' public meeting today at 4.30 at the Unity Centre Rotherham, all are welcome and its expected to be very robust


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## nino_savatte (Aug 29, 2014)

One more thing. While people are focussing on the 'race'/culture of these offenders, you've diverted your gaze from the high profile paedophiles (who aren't of Pakistani origin). Well done, guys.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Utter rubbish. So how about Sidney Cooke? Would you say that grooming is typical of White English culture?


in fairness to sidney cooke i don't think anyone ever accused him of grooming. buggery and murder more his thing.


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## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...oring-Asian-thugs-who-target-white-girls.html
> 
> One of many articles linked to those above.
> 
> ...



all this tells us is what anyone who reads the newspapers already knows, that judges have an unfortunately regular habit of accepting after the fact justifications for why anyone other than the rapist was responsible for the rape.


----------



## treelover (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Does anyone here have grounds to deny this:
> 
> 
> _speak liberal, let ye be known_. Damned in  the eye of all evidence sourcing and interpretation. Damned. _And all them posh lezzers_.



I think I have mentioned earlier that a close friend (who incidentally or not has a large multi-cultural family of all races, etc) is spitting blood over this, she was banned from fostering after raising the issues with adult services, many of her foster children were informing her of these gangs of british/Pakistani men abusing them and their peers. She does feel vindicated now, but says she would rather have been listened to then.

btw local UKIP, have described these events as a 'gift to them'

classy...


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

comrade spurski said:


> Why ? For questioning the concept of unintentional rape?
> In which case I am happy to be be an idiot...rape is rape ... unintentional rape ffs



yes you're an idiot. in one restricted sense yes of course 'rape is rape' but in another far more accurate sense it is utterly stupid to categorise every crime designated as rape as the same exact event. pretty much the entire 3rd wave feminist movement take the fact that rape can occur even when not intended to be rape by the rapist - there are fucking thousands of memes and cartoons and videos devoted to increasing the layers of emotional complexity in entering into sexual relationships... campaigns which seek to educate people on what is and what is not rape - all based around this pretty simple and obvious tenet. the main point of this is, by doing so they are actually _casting the net out wider_ in what can be seen as rape, increasing society's intolerance for abusive behaviour.

you, and some others, tried to take a comment from Grandma Death which in content was _anti-rape_ and you opportunistically (or stupidly, it's increasingly hard to tell) tried to turn that into an accusation of 'rape apologism' by focussing on some essentially irrelevant wording and casting out aspersions based on that. it's a disgusting way to conduct yourself quite frankly, and especially in the context of destroying an actually important discussion which you claim to care about.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> Utter rubbish. So how about Sidney Cooke? Would you say that grooming is typical of White English culture?


no because in no way was it a white community which enabled him and his gang to get away with their crimes, it was a bunch of self-selected paedophiles. in Rochdale and Rotherham the tacit knowledge and acceptance of an entire community gave cover to these gangs.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> in Rochdale and Rotherham the tacit knowledge and acceptance of an entire community gave cover to these gangs.


Did it? What evidence are you using here to suggest that knowledge of this was widespread? What do you know that we don't?


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

It's all too easy to scapegoat the 'Pakistani community'. But as we're seeing, the failure, willful ignorance and collusion went way beyond said community. It was a failure of British systems and British people that allowed this to happen on this scale.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> no because in no way was it a white community which enabled him and his gang to get away with their crimes, it was a bunch of self-selected paedophiles. in Rochdale and Rotherham the tacit knowledge and acceptance of an entire community gave cover to these gangs.


 
What a load of offensive shite. You can't know what was in the mind of the entire community. Are you speaking for the victims of these paedophiles who were also from that community? They gave their acceptance to being raped did they?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did it? What evidence are you using here to suggest that knowledge of this was widespread? What do you know that we don't?



this doesn't necessarily account for Rotheram, but in Rochdale the testimony of the girls suggests that the numbers of men who 'used' them went far beyond the dozen or so charged. one girl's testimony pointed to 20 men in one night, lined up and queued outside the door waiting their turn. this kind of thing was happening on a nightly basis. from their testimony scores of men were involved in this racket, from across the entire community.

that, on top of the fact that as i can personally attest, the community in Rochdale have known what was going on for years and yes - some of that was suppressed on by labelling it a racist myth. everybody in these areas has had some idea of what has been going on for years, but nothing was said or done. imo the reason has to be the tight knit nature of the community, combined with a cultural idea that the girls were whores anyway (as well as the attitudes of authorities) which allowed it to continue for so long.


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> in Rochdale and Rotherham the tacit knowledge and acceptance of an entire community gave cover to these gangs.


I get that you're a 'post in haste, repent at leisure' kind of guy but I'd invite you to reread what you've written here. Unless you have some information about this which you've chosen not to share with us this looks very much as if you are projecting your own fantasies onto the wider Pakistani community. You might want to consider how that could be misconstrued as some form of racism.

ETA :
Forget it - I've just seen your follow up. Interesting political trajectory you appear to be on.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> this doesn't necessarily account for Rotheram, but in Rochdale the testimony of the girls suggests that the numbers of men who 'used' them went far beyond the dozen or so charged. one girl's testimony pointed to 20 men in one night, lined up and queued outside the door waiting their turn. this kind of thing was happening on a nightly basis. from their testimony scores of men were involved in this racket, from across the entire community.


Assuming this is correct and scores of men were involved, what does that say about knowledge in the wider community? I would guess that even the wives, parents, sisters, brothers, neighbours of many of the men involved didn't know, let alone people unconnected to them.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> What a load of offensive shite. You can't know what was in the mind of the entire community. Are you speaking for the victims of these paedophiles who were also from that community? They gave their acceptance to being raped did they?



the victims of abuse within the community weren't involved in these particular grooming rackets. often they are abused within the 'legitimate' confines of Pakistani cultural traditions (arranged/forced marriage, patriarchal physical abuse, instinctive distrust of female testimony against family members etc). the majority of the victims of these grooming gangs were white, with a significant number from care homes.


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## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> this doesn't necessarily account for Rotheram, but in Rochdale the testimony of the girls suggests that the numbers of men who 'used' them went far beyond the dozen or so charged. one girl's testimony pointed to 20 men in one night, lined up and queued outside the door waiting their turn. this kind of thing was happening on a nightly basis. from their testimony scores of men were involved in this racket, from across the entire community.
> 
> that, on top of the fact that as i can personally attest, the community in Rochdale have known what was going on for years and yes - some of that was suppressed on by labelling it a racist myth. everybody in these areas has had some idea of what has been going on for years, but nothing was said or done. imo the reason has to be the tight knit nature of the community, combined with a cultural idea that the girls were whores anyway (as well as the attitudes of authorities) which allowed it to continue for so long.


 
Do you know of any drug dealing that goes on in your community? Burglaries? Muggings? What are you doing about them? It's your fault they're still ongoing, clearly. 

Everyone didn't know. But the Police did and we pay them to protect us and they didn't. Blaming the entire community for a criminal conspiracy run by violent men is fucking unbelievable.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

burglaries don't continue in one long session for 12 years


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> Do you know of any drug dealing that goes on in your community?


Mores to the point, how about all the drug dealing etc that you have no idea is going on, but is going on regardless, almost under your nose? It is easy to miss this stuff if you're not looking for it.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> burglaries don't continue in one long session for 12 years


 
Eh? Neither did these rapes. You need to have a word with yourself, you are coming across as blaming these communities and it actually sounds like you're saying that it is specifically Pakistani communities that collude with these paedophiles. That's really offensive.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

heaven forefend i ever offend somebody. if it's not a Pakistani community issue then why have 53 of 56 convictions for grooming gang offences been Muslim and of them the vast bulk Pakistani since 1997? why are all of the gangs that are uncovered consistently from the Pakistani (and not even other varieties of Islamic) communities? why are these kind of large scale grooming gangs a particularly Pakistani community issue? even taking into account Lurdan's legitimate criticism of the CEOP report, why do specifically Pakistanis constitute such a large percentage of _known_ grooming offences whilst making up only 1.9% of the population?


----------



## krink (Aug 29, 2014)

The whole point of the report is that people did know and did say something and did try to do something. people from all walks of life in Rotherham spoke out and reported and tried to help but the people who could and should have sorted this out didn't give a fuck. 

'communities did this and communities didn't do that'. Read the fucking report.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

it's just blindness, total stubborn refusal to see what's under your nose in a grand geopolitical battle squaring off 'minorities' against the 'right wing'... as though these are historically immutable categories and the strength of one will always be measured directly by the weakness of the other. it's political cynicism which stops you being able to see the clear issue at play here and in the meantime real existing race relations in the areas where these things are going on are being left totally undealt with - and it will have truly tragic consequences in the not too distant future.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

krink said:


> The whole point of the report is that people did know and did say something and did try to do something. people from all walks of life in Rotherham spoke out and reported and tried to help but the people who could and should have sorted this out didn't give a fuck.


That's the real fucking unforgivable tragedy of if. And why this is a British problem, not a 'Pakistani community' problem. Everyone was let down by the authorities on this, not least the 'Pakistani community'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> real existing race relations in the areas where these things are going on are being left totally undealt with .


Real existing _crimes_ were left totally undealt with. That's the point, isn't it? That's the point at which the authorities let everyone down.

You're sounding like Enoch now.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> no because in no way was it a white community which enabled him and his gang to get away with their crimes, it was a bunch of self-selected paedophiles. in Rochdale and Rotherham the tacit knowledge and acceptance of an entire community gave cover to these gangs.


And you know this how?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 29, 2014)

...these crimes aren't even about rape in any conventional sense...this was basically enslavement...deliberate sustained brutalisation and terror - not even just of the victims but their families aswell - designed at the total psychological destruction of another human-being..

..how anyone can read about this sheer evil and desperatley start trying to diminish it by aload of irrelevant "whataboutery" and whose-rape-is-worse occupies a radically different moral planet aafaic....


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 29, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> One more thing. While people are focussing on the 'race'/culture of these offenders, you've diverted your gaze from the high profile paedophiles (who aren't of Pakistani origin). Well done, guys.


 
...this is a thread about the Rotherham grooming case...what exactly did you think peple were going to discuss on it....?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

that's certainly not what i'm doing if that post is directed at me


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> s a bunch of self-selected paedophiles


out of curiosity could you name a bunch of paedophiles who weren't self-selected?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ..how anyone can read about this sheer evil and desperatley start trying to diminish it by aload of irrelevant "whataboutery" and whose-rape-is-worse occupies a radically different moral planet aafaic....


Nobody's done that. We got into a stupid derail, that's all. It happens here.


----------



## treelover (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I get that you're a 'post in haste, repent at leisure' kind of guy but I'd invite you to reread what you've written here. Unless you have some information about this which you've chosen not to share with us this looks very much as if you are projecting your own fantasies onto the wider Pakistani community. You might want to consider how that could be misconstrued as some form of racism.
> 
> ETA :
> Forget it - I've just seen your follow up. Interesting political trajectory you appear to be on.



Ah, the witch hunts are on for anyone who doesn't agree with the line.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

treelover said:


> According to local radio The 'young british muslims' are having an 'open and frank' public meeting today at 4.30 at the Unity Centre Rotherham, all are welcome and its expected to be very robust


If you hear any further please let us know. Very interesting.


----------



## killer b (Aug 29, 2014)

treelover said:


> Ah, the witch hunts are on for anyone who doesn't agree with the line.


 you have an interesting take on witch hunts.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> heaven forefend i ever offend somebody. if it's not a Pakistani community issue then why have 53 of 56 convictions for grooming gang offences been Muslim and of them the vast bulk Pakistani since 1997? why are all of the gangs that are uncovered consistently from the Pakistani (and not even other varieties of Islamic) communities? why are these kind of large scale grooming gangs a particularly Pakistani community issue? even taking into account Lurdan's legitimate criticism of the CEOP report, why do specifically Pakistanis constitute such a large percentage of _known_ grooming offences whilst making up only 1.9% of the population?


 
The point is that criminals from those communities found a way to exploit these women. If you read the report it says very clearly that gangs from other ethnicities were also involved. White male gangs are known as paedophile rings for some reason but they were also operating within the UK at the same time but no one is asking why the white community, or whatever, didn't act. 



treelover said:


> Ah, the witch hunts are on for anyone who doesn't agree with the line.


 
Please be clear, what line is that?


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

treelover said:


> Ah, the witch hunts are on for anyone who doesn't agree with the line.


Well I'm certainly following any line about engaging with this twat any further, but I hadn't appreciated I was the subject of a witch hunt as a result. Thanks for warning me.

ETA - 'certainly not' - doh


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> White male gangs are known as paedophile rings for some reason but they were also operating within the UK at the same time but no one is asking why the white community, or whatever, didn't act.


 
plenty of people have been asking exactly that .....maybe you were out of the country that fortnight when Harriet Harman and the NCCL weren't out of the papers over their involvement with Paedophile Information Exchange...?

...I take it you've never read this either ...?


The Establishment paedophile: how a monster hid in high society

Roger Took was a pillar of academia, with an enviable Chelsea address. He was also a vicious paedophile. Charlotte Metcalf shows how the veneer of social respectability can protect even the worst offenders

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features...paedophile-how-a-monster-hid-in-high-society/


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

Getting back to the "cultural" thing.
Having been to a couple of Muslim countries and spending some time there, I was shocked at how they treated women, I was quite uncomfortable, but there was nothing I could do about it. Also all the men and especially the young men seemed sexually repressed, and all the experts say the more you try to suppress sexual urge, the worse you make it. I contrast the amazonian Indians culture to Muslim culture, the Amazonian Indians don't even have a word for anal sex or a way to describe, it is unknown to them, whereas Pakistan is the porn watching capital of the World. (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/12/data-shows-pakistan-googling-pornographic-material/), Everywhere where Muslims have come to live in Western countries they have had the same problem, is it genetic or caused by their repressive religion, it is obviously their religion, because they come from varied countries. Check out Bachi Bazi as well (I couldn't find the full documentary but this is a clip : ). This people come from this abusive and exploitative and sexually repressed background, this why they behave the way they do.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

Don't bother folks.


----------



## quiquaquo (Aug 29, 2014)

Islamophobia, homophobia, Fox News link and "Ban Cunnulingus" as a username all in one post.

Well fucking done not.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> the Amazonian Indians don't even have a word for anal sex or a way to describe, it is unknown to them,


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> plenty of people have been asking exactly that .....maybe you were out of the country that fortnight when Harriet Harman and the NCCL weren't out of the papers over their involvement with Paedophile Information Exchange...?
> 
> ...I take it you've never read this either ...?
> 
> ...


 
Have they been asking what white communities have been doing about paedophile rings? Afaics you've posted about MPs responsibilities in supporting them, which is clearly an issue but isn't relevant to the question of why the Pakistani community is being held responsible for colluding with these paedophiles whilst the same questions aren't being asked of the communities that white paedophiles live in.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 29, 2014)

...don't the eskimos have 30 different words for it though..?


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


>


And you have proof they do?


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 29, 2014)

...I'll quote from the article if its quicker...

However, what is remarkable about Took’s case is that his respectability and status blinded some who knew him to the true horror of his crimes and, to an extent, protected him from the public outrage that normally follows the exposure of such appalling acts against children.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

I would really like to talk about what butchers posted about the cultural aspect of this but I feel that it will just attract so many racists that any discussion will be derailed before it gets going.

butchersapron will you please expand on your post about this? I found it immensely interesting and informative and a real insight into views I have a very tenuous grasp on.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> I would really like to talk about what butchers posted about the cultural aspect of this but I feel that it will just attract so many racists that any discussion will be derailed before it gets going.
> 
> butchersapron will you please expand on your post about this? I found it immensely interesting and informative and a real insight into views I have a very tenuous grasp on.


Would like to mate, but out the door in a few minutes, may be gone for just a few hours but may not be back till late tonight. If i can grab a few minutes on the phone later i'll do my best...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I'll have a go.
> 
> Because there are no adequate mechanisms for collecting/reporting the figures which would produce meaningful national statistics - something which Professor Jay highlighted in interviews. The table from the CEOPs report has to be understood in that context. It was the result of a six month investigation set up after the Rochdale localised grooming case in 2010 which put this issue onto the agenda.
> 
> ...



I have to say that I found some of the stuff in the report about the lack of data-sharing quite alarming.  We're nearly 20 years in with multi-disciplinary and multi-agency involvement in child protection, and yet data is still being clung onto in a way that stops trends being analysed and resources properly directed. 

I realise that, measured alongside the horror of the actual crimes committed against these children, my quibble is rather academic, but even so...


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I have to say that I found some of the stuff in the report about the lack of data-sharing quite alarming.  We're nearly 20 years in with multi-disciplinary and multi-agency involvement in child protection, and yet data is still being clung onto in a way that stops trends being analysed and resources properly directed.
> 
> I realise that, measured alongside the horror of the actual crimes committed against these children, my quibble is rather academic, but even so...


 
The problem afaics is a misunderstanding/lack of training around confidentiality and data sharing in relation to child protection or vulnerable people. Plus every agency had their own guidelines to this even though child protection trumps any single agency guidelines. Then there is inter agency protectiveness in so much as a lot of them are after money from the same pot and simply don't want to share information with their rivals. Finally there are the personalities involved. If someone can't be bothered to share the information then the flow stops right there.

I don't think it is academic, I think it's a fundamental flaw that is a big part of this whole problem.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I have to say that I found some of the stuff in the report about the lack of data-sharing quite alarming.  We're nearly 20 years in with multi-disciplinary and multi-agency involvement in child protection, and yet data is still being clung onto in a way that stops trends being analysed and resources properly directed.
> 
> I realise that, measured alongside the horror of the actual crimes committed against these children, my quibble is rather academic, but even so...


Not just not sharing data - not recording it to start with. At the first level because this isn't even seen as a distinct issue, and later if it, (as in Rotherham to this day), because the Police have reasons of their own for not accepting and recording what is reported to them as crimes. I think of myself as a fairly cynical old scrote but I was somewhat surprised at the level of the criticism in the new HMIC report into Crime Data Integrity in South Yorkshire Police I quoted last night. You'd think they would be attempting a better job of arse covering.


> This was particularly evident in the public protection unit, with a great deal of time spent trying to disprove the word of the victim from the outset, rather than record the crime in compliance with the NCRS and HOCR and then take the appropriate action as the investigation progressed.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> The problem afaics is a misunderstanding/lack of training around confidentiality and data sharing in relation to child protection or vulnerable people. Plus every agency had their own guidelines to this even though child protection trumps any single agency guidelines. Then there is inter agency protectiveness in so much as a lot of them are after money from the same pot and simply don't want to share information with their rivals. Finally there are the personalities involved. If someone can't be bothered to share the information then the flow stops right there.
> 
> I don't think it is academic, I think it's a fundamental flaw that is a big part of this whole problem.



It's also rather sobering to think of the possible true scale of this problem. Reading that report gives me the distinct impression that the harder and wider people look for this, the more such rings will be revealed. It may be little more than a question of chance that some of the rings exposed so far have involved particular identifiable ethnic groups. People will conspire with those they know, meaning that rings are likely to be self-selecting in terms of the demographics of their members. It seems likely that similar things are going on elsewhere within different groups, but we simply don't know about them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Ok so is all rape motivated by hatred?



While "hatred" may be a rather naked term, rape is always rooted in contempt.  How else could you violate someone, unless you felt contempt or, yes, hatred for them and/or their gender?  If we step away from the fairly obvious fact that one does not victimise a friend, however convenient and/or beneficial it might be to us as an individual, what you are left with are a handful of arguments, some of which I'll itemise below:
1) The argument that the rapist "couldn't help it", that something the assault victim wore, did or said caused a compulsion in the perpetrator.  In sex-offender treatment programmes, this is the first "rape myth" dealt with - it's unpacked to show the offender that it's a convenient fiction that allows them to excuse their own actions.
2) The argument of "mixed messages" with regard to body language and/or lack of sexual refusal, especially prevalent when one or both parties have their faculties impaired by drink or drugs.  This is another argument dealt with succinctly in S.O.T.P.s, through reference to the fact that the perpetrator generally doesn't misread any other "message" except the one to do with fulfilling their own need to assert power.
3) The hoary argument that a woman has a reputation, so certain behaviours are to be expected from her, including "putting out" if you spend the evening buying her drinks

The three above examples are all rooted in the same set of assumptions about women - that they are and *should be* subject to the whims of men.  If that doesn't speak of contempt, even outright hatred, I don't know what does.


----------



## comrade spurski (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> yes you're an idiot. in one restricted sense yes of course 'rape is rape' but in another far more accurate sense it is utterly stupid to categorise every crime designated as rape as the same exact event. pretty much the entire 3rd wave feminist movement take the fact that rape can occur even when not intended to be rape by the rapist - there are fucking thousands of memes and cartoons and videos devoted to increasing the layers of emotional complexity in entering into sexual relationships... campaigns which seek to educate people on what is and what is not rape - all based around this pretty simple and obvious tenet. the main point of this is, by doing so they are actually _casting the net out wider_ in what can be seen as rape, increasing society's intolerance for abusive behaviour.
> 
> you, and some others, tried to take a comment from Grandma Death which in content was _anti-rape_ and you opportunistically (or stupidly, it's increasingly hard to tell) tried to turn that into an accusation of 'rape apologism' by focussing on some essentially irrelevant wording and casting out aspersions based on that. it's a disgusting way to conduct yourself quite frankly, and especially in the context of destroying an actually important discussion which you claim to care about.


I query the concept of unintentional rape and I am an idiot ... you like I said have fucked up ideas.
I didn't call anyone a rape apologist so fuck knows what that had to do with my question.
and finally... fuck off with unintentional rape...just be honest and either apologise or say that rape aint always rape...
imo rape is always rape so there is fuck all unintentional about it.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

When I was cutting a pasting that stuff in the CEOPs report the bit that struck me was the bit about


> Where police, children’s services and voluntary sector agencies have worked together, coordinated by the LSCBs, to identify and address child sexual exploitation, a significant number of cases have come to light. However, very few case are known in areas where agencies do not routinely engage victims and collect data. Agencies which do not proactively look for child sexual exploitation will as a result fail to identify it.


because it reminded me about the stuff in the Jay report about the Risky Business project in Rotherham, and the references to the inadequate record keeping Jay found in Social Services records. It struck me as I was reading that, that if Risky Business hadn't existed a significant slice of the abuse Jay identified might have remained invisible. Project that on to the majority of places which don't have such a project and it suggests some grim conclusions.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's also rather sobering to think of the possible true scale of this problem. Reading that report gives me the distinct impression that the harder and wider people look for this, the more such rings will be revealed. It may be little more than a question of chance that some of the rings exposed so far have involved particular identifiable ethnic groups. People will conspire with those they know, meaning that rings are likely to be self-selecting in terms of the demographics of their members. It seems likely that similar things are going on elsewhere within different groups, but we simply don't know about them.


 
This is another issue that this has shone a light on, that Rotherham simply can't be the only place this is happening. To think of the scale of this in those terms is truly horrific.

I was having a talk with a friend who works in a Protecting Vulnerable People unit, what the PPU is in Rotherham, the other day and she confidently told me that paedophiles simply can't operate with impunity these days. I just looked at her and said "are you serious?" She's a police officer and has been for 20 years and the police really believed that they had this problem nailed. I will be interested to hear her views on this.

The thing is, if they believe they have this under control then what does that say about crimes like domestic violence, that they acknowledge they are only beginning to understand? The police should, at the very least, protect our most vulnerable but they can't even do that. If I was working for the police today I would having a long think about continuing to do so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> In this documentary it is mentioned at one point:




So your "evidence" is a single mention in a decades-old doco.
In other words, it's not actual evidence of anything except a single pervert or group of perverts having expressed a preference.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> Have they been asking what white communities have been doing about paedophile rings? Afaics you've posted about MPs responsibilities in supporting them, which is clearly an issue but isn't relevant to the question of why the Pakistani community is being held responsible for colluding with these paedophiles whilst the same questions aren't being asked of the communities that white paedophiles live in.


 

...perhaps yopu could explain exactly why you seem to have this big and apparently very uncomfortable bug up your rear end at the thought of the Pakistani community being asked to dob in evil scumbags...isn't that what any decent member of society would WANT to do....why is asking any citizen or group of citizens to perform that duty such a terrible unjust imposition.....can you point to any member of the Pakistani community who has objected to that duty being asked of them...?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> When I was cutting a pasting that stuff in the CEOPs report the bit that struck me was the bit about
> 
> because it reminded me about the stuff in the Jay report about the Risky Business project in Rotherham, and the references to the inadequate record keeping Jay found in Social Services records. It struck me as I was reading that, that if Risky Business hadn't existed a significant slice of the abuse Jay identified might have remained invisible. Project that on to the majority of places which don't have such a project and it suggests some grim conclusions.


Yes, that was the bit that struck me too. Fucking grim conclusions.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...perhaps yopu could explain exactly why you seem to have this big and apparently very uncomfprtable bug up your rear end at the thought of the Pakisatni community being asked to dob in evil scumbags...isn't that what any decent member of society would WANT to do....why is asking any citizen or group of citizens to perform that duty such a terrible unjust imposition.....can you point to any member of the Pakisatni community who has objected to that duty beng asked of them...?


 
The problem I have is that you said the community was colluding with these paedophiles. Now you're shifting the goal posts and saying that I have a problem with the Pakistani community being expected to report these criminals to the police. But anyway, I'll address that. Have you read the bit in the report where it says a girl was doused in petrol so that her sister would do what these men wanted?

If they had doused your sibling in petrol then held a lighter to them, would you tell them to go fuck themselves because you're going to report them anyway? You're 12 btw.


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> So your "evidence" is a single mention in a decades-old doco.
> In other words, it's not actual evidence of anything except a single pervert or group of perverts having expressed a preference.


Yes, that's my evidence. Got any to contradict it?


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

Well if pedophiles really do have more genes in common with crabs than with humans perhaps they are genetically hard wired to respond to that combination of blonde hair and blue eyes. Perhaps it reminds them of little mermaids. Wasn't there a Disney documentary aboiut that ?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 29, 2014)

gimesumtruf said:


> Children have been allowed out of children's homes (for how long,who knows?) because carers are faced with putting choke holds on these children who know the law but not their own minds.
> I've seen this stuff for years now, for instance police picking up kids late at night, taking them back, only to see them out again the same night(exploited in too many ways to mention) .
> The whole of child welfare is not fit for purpose and regrettably never has been.
> While our politician's are allowed outside interests, then we cannot trust them to do an exclusive job imho.
> ...



I find this confusing as well. If as a parent you were to stop your kids walking the street late at night this would be seen as good parenting, yet the law opens up kids to be very vulnerable.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 29, 2014)

.....plenty of people in Rotherham did know this was going on.....looking at a crime spanning 16 yrs and hundreds of victims the calls are obviously aimed at friends, aquaintences and family members of people involved who know or suspect something was ( ....& undoubtedly still is.... ) happening, not the actual victims as I'm sure you realise perfectly well...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> .....plenty of people in Rotherham did know this was going on.....looking at a crime spanning 16 yrs and hundreds of victims the calls are obviously aimed at friends, aquaintences and family members of people involved who know or suspect something was ( ....& undoubtedly still is.... ) happening, not the actual victims as I'm sure you realise perfectly well...


You're slipping into vague generalisations now. You don't know any more than anybody else who knew what.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...perhaps yopu could explain exactly why you seem to have this big and apparently very uncomfortable bug up your rear end at the thought of the Pakistani community being asked to dob in evil scumbags...isn't that what any decent member of society would WANT to do....why is asking any citizen or group of citizens to perform that duty such a terrible unjust imposition.....can you point to any member of the Pakistani community who has objected to that duty being asked of them...?


Plenty of people at the BBC knew or suspected Savile's misdeeds but I don't see calls for the entire BBC to be held accountable for his actions.

Wrt the 'Pakistani community' none of us know if anyone else knew  or not. Stop making stuff up.


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Well if pedophiles really do have more genes in common with crabs than with humans perhaps they are genetically hard wired to respond to that combination of blonde hair and blue eyes. Perhaps it reminds them of little mermaids. Wasn't there a Disney documentary aboiut that ?


We are all hot-wired for sexually attraction.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> ...ok offending of this nature. So you'd argue misogyny is a feature of ALL rape. So someone who is drunk, has impaired judgement, misreads the signs-rapes someone...thats misogony? I mean all rape is wrong regardless of the circumstances but to suggest misogyny is a feature of ALL rapes ignores the contexts of some rapes.



Mate, you've just cited the three main excuses sex offenders trot out to excuse their behaviour.  Those excuses are known as rape myths", primarily because they're mythical insofar as actually being accurate depictions of what offenders *really* thought.
How do we know this?  30+ years of admissions by sex offenders.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> We are all hot-wired for sexually attraction.


 
How is that relevant on a thread where we're talking about child sexual exploitation?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh you can just predict the next thing it is after all urban. Do fuck off .Ive said all rape is wrong you utter cunt. Dont ever label me as a rape apologist



You posted what boils down to rape apologism.  Be a fucking _mensch_ and take your licks, for fuck's sake!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

double post


----------



## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

bmd said:


> How is that relevant on a thread where we're talking about child sexual exploitation?


They raped females, not males, they raped young (Very young) women, not old women, they raped White girls, they had their preference, they weren't raping at random.


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> They raped females, not males, they raped young (Very young) women, not old women, they raped White girls, they had their preference, they weren't raping at random.


 
Paedophiles do have a sexual preference for children.

However, it seems to me that the scale of these crimes is down to the criminal gangs prostituting those children, rather than paedophiles simply going out and finding them one by one.


----------



## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Plenty of people at the BBC knew or suspected Savile's misdeeds but I don't see calls for the entire BBC to be held accountable for his actions.
> 
> Wrt the 'Pakistani community' none of us know if anyone else knew  or not. Stop making stuff up.



In fact, we were "authoritatively" told that "everyone", including all at the BBC and the entire population of Leeds knew conclusively what Salvile was up to (not true) and also that no-one said anything to the police or other authorities (also not true).

In fact the truth is that some people knew, some of them reported what they suspected to the authorities, who then went out of their way (it appears) to avoid doing anything about it. There is a distinct sense of deja vu here, except that I can't remember any suggestion that either Savile's abuse, or the failure to investigate it when it was reported, had anything to do with an entire racial/ethnic/cultural group, every supposed member of which was apparently guilty by association.

Maybe hot air baboon can remind us of the posts he made referring to the collective guilt of the entire white/Yorkshire/"showbiz community" population in *that* case, just to demonstrate he's being even-handed...


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> They raped females, not males, they raped young (Very young) women, not old women, they raped White girls, they had their preference, they weren't raping at random.


Can you provide some evidence that all 1,400 victims were white please. Or are you making shit up again?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

toggle said:


> and the fact that the people who make and interpret it aren't misogynist, unlike brown people. and the swp.



How could they possibly be misogynist, when most of them are males who went to all-male public schools, and whose main interactions with females were with _mater_ and the nanny?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm not qualified to say. I would guess that the trauma caused by the different scenarios could be very different, though, yes.



Depth and type of trauma is an issue of the victim's psyche, not the severity or type of the assault itself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Why though?
> 
> Different people have different levels of coping with something. I can understand why sentencing works that way. But that wasn't what we were discussing. It was suggested that there's varying levels of rape and the sentencing guidelines back this up. But sentencing guidelines aren't tailored to the effect something has had on someone's life. Yes we can say it's worse to stalk a woman at knifepoint and drag her into a field. But that doesn't mean that forcing yourself on a woman in a comfortable surroundings somehow isn't as bad. I'm struggling to understand why people aren't getting this. Try telling a date raped woman that at least it didn't happen in a dark lane. Just wtf.



In effect, what the guidelines do (very badly) is attempt to give judges a set of "bookends" to the severity of each of a "class" of offences, when actually (as you've already gleaned) the *severity of effect on the victim* will differ, dependent on that victim's "level of coping".  In effect, sentencing someone with regard to guidelines on putative offence severity entirely misses the point of justice - of balancing the crime *and* its' effects with the punishment.
Not that the criminal justice system has ever had much truck with justice.


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> We are all hot-wired for sexually attraction.



Well, this is a contender for post of the year if ever I saw one. Insightful, truthful, yet at the same time confused (hot-wired, LOL) and mis-spelt. Awesome.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Aug 29, 2014)

toggle said:


> all this tells us is what anyone who reads the newspapers already knows, that judges have an unfortunately regular habit of accepting after the fact justifications for why anyone other than the rapist was responsible for the rape.



The article contains much more than the part quoted.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Can you provide some evidence that all 1,400 victims were white please. Or are you making shit up again?


this thread already covered the Rotherham abuse report's assertion that the vast majority were white, with some mixed race. allegations of abuse towards Pakistani girls hasn't come from these 'grooming gang' accusations but separately - i.e. and much of those claims have yet to be investigated.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

fucthest8 said:


> Well, this is a contender for post of the year if ever I saw one. Insightful, truthful, yet at the same time confused (hot-wired, LOL) and mis-spelt. Awesome.


There are a few contenders, tbf - 'Amazonian indians have no word for anal sex' has to be up there. 

And the response to anyone questioning it - 'can you prove they do?'


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

Rotherham Abuse Inquiry said:
			
		

> 5.5 In this part of the report, we have not specified the ethnicity of the victims or the perpetrators. In a large number of the historic cases in particular, most of the victims in the cases we sampled were white British children, and the majority of the perpetrators were from minority ethnic communities. They were described generically in the files as ‘Asian males’ without precise reference being made to their ethnicity.



http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are a few contenders, tbf - 'Amazonian indians have no word for anal sex' has to be up there.
> 
> And the response to anyone questioning it - 'can you prove they do?'



Indeed, I enjoyed that exchange too. So, we've gained a couple of new trolls then? Anyway, as others have said, back to butchers post I think, excellent place to re-start, one of the smartest and most interesting things I've read on here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Oh dear....Looks like there might be a flaw in your world-view.  You bandy around this term 'misogyny' as if repeating it might accord it some special meaning.  The truth is that the causes of this scandal are complex, but one thing is certain: if people had not been bullied and cowed by idiots like you and were able to speak openly about certain subjects, those girls would not have been victimised.  The Left - people on this 'discussion' board - have had a hand in this.  Most especially hysterical nitwits like yourself.



I'd venture that the twin motives of careerism and a work culture where whistleblowing is difficult-going-on-impossible *despite* successive legislative attempts to make it "easier" played a greater part than people being "bullied and cowed" by lefties.  We're all entitled to speak openly.  The issue is about courage and perseverance in the face of official indifference.

But by all means make the issue about your own political bugbears. Just don't be surprised when you're laughed at.




> If you think race can be disengaged from culture, then you are an ignorant fool.



It depends entirely on the culture.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> You cannot disengage race from culture.  To hold that position is utterly counter-factual and idiotic.  I think you know this.  You have a rather sinister agenda.  You spend a great deal of your time on here, which is rather sad in itself, but prompts me to ponder whether you are being paid - and if so, by whom?
> 
> Who are you serving?



Blatant projection, in my sinister Jewish opinion.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> That sounds very neat and rather like something I'd read in a sociology textbook written by a 60s washed-up liberal turned thatcherite.  However, my concern is with reality.



Oh look, another trope!
You've either been reading Daniel Hannan's stream-of-consciousness rants, or you actually are him.  Either way, you're not overly concerned with reality, whatever you claim otherwise.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> Because the sexual assault of young white girls is hilarious, isn't it.  OK yah?  Oh jolly ha-ha.  It's only the proles!



You mean "young white, mixed race and Pakistani girls and boys", surely?
You *have* read the Jay Report, haven't you?  because not to have done so would be a mockery of the "proles" you're pretending to support and be concerned about.


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 29, 2014)

Fascinating. So, Earendel joins in May 2013, posts for *one day*, then doesn't reappear until they suddenly pop up all over this thread ...


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## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> this thread already covered the Rotherham abuse report's assertion that the vast majority were white, with some mixed race. allegations of abuse towards Pakistani girls hasn't come from these 'grooming gang' accusations but separately - i.e. and much of those claims have yet to be investigated.


I suspect choice of victim was largely dictated by opportunity rather than 'preferences' like badly spelled moniker is suggesting.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 29, 2014)

Grandma Death said:


> Oh you can just predict the next thing it is after all urban. Do fuck off .Ive said all rape is wrong you utter cunt. Dont ever label me as a rape apologist


i don't need to when you do it so ably yourself.


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## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I suspect choice of victim was largely dictated by opportunity rather than 'preferences' like badly spelled moniker is suggesting.


i agree, but it still appears that the girls abused through _these_ organised grooming networks are by and large white. the abuse of Pakistani girls almost undoubtedly occurs but hasn't been found through the uncovering of the circles in Rotherham or Rochdale.


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Can you provide some evidence that all 1,400 victims were white please. Or are you making shit up again?


Were they all inclusive, non-discriminatory, equal opportunity type of paedophiles then?


----------



## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham



I'm sure I can't be the only one who is curious about why the race/ethnicity/whatever you want to call it of victims and perpetrators has become the dominant factor in reports (both media and official) in this case, in a way it doesn't seem to, as far as I can remember, in many other cases.

Maybe I've just forgotten the way in which the Savile/Harris/Clifford/etc cases were reported in similarly race-focussed ways, and you've got similar data from those cases which can enlighten me...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> My society.  The society that I grew up in.  The country that I am proud of.



A question for you - one I ask everyone who asserts pride in their country:  Have you served your country militarily?



> The country that my ancestors helped to build.



That could make you from any country in the former British Empire.



> The society that I take responsibility for.



And exactly how do you do that?  Hopefully in a way more meaningful than ranting at "lefties".



> You may be happy for us to become a Third World country in which white girls are used as prostitutes, but I'm not.



You prefer to use non-white prostitutes, then?  
Actually, that's a bit of a right-wing trope, the "fondness for darker meat", and I'd hate to be accused of falling back on tropes, so forget I wrote that, eh?


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## dylanredefined (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> Were they all inclusive, non-discriminatory, equal opportunity type of paedophiles then?



Basically yes. Any kid deemed vulnerable was targeted. White kids got it as authority
didn't care about them ,and, Asian kids got it as they could be shamed into keeping quiet.


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

I think there are 3 main elements to this case:

*The Boys/men why did they do it?* >----- Sexually repressive religion

*The victims, why were they chosen?* >----- sexually preference,> availability, vulnerability.

*How did they get away with it who are to blame?* >------ inadequate social-workers, council-workers and Council officials, incompetent Police, and the Pakistani Community.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Diamond, is that you?



Does he smell of anarcho-capitalism, then?


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> I think there are 3 main elements to this case:
> 
> *The Boys/men why did they do it?* >----- Sexually repressive religion
> 
> ...



Ta da! No need for anything more, this thread is complete!


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> Basically yes. Any kid deemed vulnerable was targeted. .


Kids is already a choice why not old Ladies?
They chose Females of certain age, young teenagers, not prepubescent child.


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## SpookyFrank (Aug 29, 2014)

I nearly got sucked in to replying to one of the trolls there. But then I remembered that you can simply block people.

I recommend you all give it a try, in the hopes we might get an important thread back.


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

fucthest8 said:


> Ta da! No need for anything more, this thread is complete!


Oh yus - it's a bit like opening your present on Xmas morning and its yet another pair of unwashed used socks. I definitely preferred the crabs and mermaids version.


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

fucthest8 said:


> Ta da! No need for anything more, this thread is complete!


It is not complete, How do you stop it/them?
Pakistan is one of the most sexually backwards countries in the World, they are repressed, if Pakistanis all walked around in the nude or at least it was common and sexually relationships between teenagers were encourage or at least allowed, a huge number of these rapes would never happen.


----------



## fucthest8 (Aug 29, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I nearly got sucked in to replying to one of the trolls there. But then I remembered that you can simply block people.
> 
> I recommend you all give it a try, in the hopes we might get an important thread back.



Sorry, you're right of course, I was enjoying myself on a Friday afternoon is all, apologies. You're right that this is an important thread, if we can get it back on track.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> I think there are 3 main elements to this case:
> The Boys/men why did they do it? >----- Sexually repressive religion



That's an *excuse*, it isn't a reason.


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## BanCunnulingus! (Aug 29, 2014)

No, it is one of the main reasons.


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i agree, but it still appears that the girls abused through _these_ organised grooming networks are by and large white. the abuse of Pakistani girls almost undoubtedly occurs but hasn't been found through the uncovering of the circles in Rotherham or Rochdale.



It also appears that the girls abused through _these_ organised grooming networks are by and large in council care, and that those who have done the initial recruitment/procuring are by and large taxi-drivers, but this aspect, and the specific way in which the initial recruitment was done, the way the opportunity was directly provided by the way the council introduced the victims to the perpretrators, is being ignored in preference to choosing to focus on the apparent racial aspect, but I've yet to see any serious suggestion that this might be significant or worthy of examination.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Earendel said:


> I didn't say I 'own' it, nitwit.  What I am suggesting is that societies that lack cohesiveness might not be governed very well and might not be pleasant places to live in.  Unless and until you can acknowledge that there is an ecological connection between a people and the soil and that this needs to be respected, we are just going to continue with this trouble and strife.



Ah, _Blut und boden_. Sehr gut.



> It doesn't require a great brain to see that most people ideally wish to live among their own kind - that being, people of similar culture and ethnicity.  You think otherwise because you are wedded to an ideological position that sees 'race' as a divisive concept.  I am suggesting that this needn't be the case.  It is just natural for people to want to be among their own extended family.



A contentious argument that proceeds from a belief or set of beliefs that aren't particularly well-reinforced by historical fact, unless you only look to colonialist data.


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## quiquaquo (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> It is not complete, How do you stop it/them?
> Pakistan is one of the most sexually backwards countries in the World, they are repressed, if Pakistanis all walked around in the nude or at least it was common and sexually relationships between teenagers were encourage or at least allowed, a huge number of these rapes would never happen.



Fuck off and die you racist piece of shit.

Mods please crucify this cunt.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> I'm sure I can't be the only one who is curious about why the race/ethnicity/whatever you want to call it of victims and perpetrators has become the dominant factor in reports (both media and official) in this case, in a way it doesn't seem to, as far as I can remember, in many other cases.
> 
> Maybe I've just forgotten the way in which the Savile/Harris/Clifford/etc cases were reported in similarly race-focussed ways, and you've got similar data from those cases which can enlighten me...



once again - this point is being perennially dealt with over and over again. for starters i am certainly not suggesting that the genetic fact that these men were of 'Asian' descent has anything whatsoever to do with this. what is being said is that the Pakistani community can clearly, statistically be seen to play a hugely disproportionate role in large-scale child grooming cases. how that would relate to me pointing out the 'whiteness' of Saville i don't know, it's a totally different argument. Saville was able to abuse because he had money, power and prestige - all factors which influenced the police and his surrounding retinue.

these taxi drivers in Rotherham have no money, real power or prestige. yet, they got away with a huge-scale activity in which thousands of victims were abused, by many scores and scores of other members of their community. further to this, in every uncovered example of similar grooming gangs the perpetrators have been _overwhelmingly_ Pakistani and the victims overwhelmingly non-muslim/white. i am saying that with the numbers involved in both sides here, and the fact that such cases have been open secrets in these communities for decades (and still continue to be. i expect further Pakistani grooming gangs to be uncovered in numerous other North West towns over the next decade, as the things being said in Rochdale are the same things people say in Bolton, in Blackburn, in Burnley). the men directly involved have come from all sections of the community - many taxi drivers, yes, but also businessmen, regular mosque-goers, many generations.

why no Bangladeshi grooming gangs? why no Arab grooming gangs? why no Hindu grooming gangs? all of these communities are close knit and conservative, and undoubtedly abuse is concealed behind that, but why has it not manifested itself in the grooming gangs as seen in Rochdale, Telford, Rotherham, Derby and Oxford? clearly there is something about the structure and culture of Pakistani communities in areas of the North West and elsewhere which enables these organisations to develop and survive.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> It also appears that the girls abused through _these_ organised grooming networks are by and large in council care, and that those who have done the initial recruitment/procuring are by and large taxi-drivers, but this aspect, and the specific way in which the initial recruitment was done, the way the opportunity was directly provided by the way the council introduced the victims to the perpretrators, is being ignored in preference to choosing to focus on the apparent racial aspect, but I've yet to see any serious suggestion that this might be significant or worthy of examination.


Exactly. The colour of these girls' skin doesn't seem to be the issue here at all. They picked on vulnerable girls and picked on them in a very specific way, and the majority (though not all) of those vulnerable girls happened to be white. That's all. 

Das Uberdog, you've got this bit wrong. You've been blinded by the race issue in a way that seems to prevent you from seeing why it is that these girls, and not others, were the victims. Opportunity - the overwhelming factor. Race appears to be largely if not entirely irrelevant here.


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## quiquaquo (Aug 29, 2014)

Thank you mods


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Exactly. The colour of these girls' skin doesn't seem to be the issue here at all. They picked on vulnerable girls and picked on them in a very specific way, and the majority (though not all) of those vulnerable girls happened to be white. That's all...



And I got the impression from something I read (can't remember exactly what, where, when I'm afraid) that they were effectively enabled to do this by the council care services using taxi companies to provide transport for the children in its care. Has anyone else got this impression or have i just imagined it?

Because if it is the case it opens up a whole other aspect which is yet to be examined


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## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> Thank you mods



And if the thread is trolled again, it's easy enough to report to the mods for racism, and ignore.


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## sojourner (Aug 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> And I got the impression from something I read (can't remember exactly what, where, when I'm afraid) that they were effectively enabled to do this by the council care services using taxi companies to provide transport for the children in its care. Has anyone else got this impression or have i just imagined it?
> 
> Because if it is the case it opens up a whole other aspect which is yet to be examined


No, I think that too. It's in the report - section 8 deals with this area.


----------



## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> once again - this point is being perennially dealt with over and over again. for starters i am certainly not suggesting that the genetic fact that these men were of 'Asian' descent has anything whatsoever to do with this. what is being said is that* the Pakistani community can clearly, statistically be seen to play a hugely disproportionate role in large-scale child grooming cases*. how that would relate to me pointing out the 'whiteness' of Saville i don't know, it's a totally different argument. Saville was able to abuse because he had money, power and prestige - all factors which influenced the police and his surrounding retinue.
> 
> these taxi drivers in Rotherham have no money, real power or prestige. yet, they got away with a huge-scale activity in which thousands of victims were abused, by many scores and scores of other members of their community. further to this, *in every uncovered example of similar grooming gangs* the perpetrators have been _overwhelmingly_ Pakistani and the victims overwhelmingly non-muslim/white. i am saying that with the numbers involved in both sides here, and the fact that such cases have been open secrets in these communities for decades (and still continue to be. i expect further Pakistani grooming gangs to be uncovered in numerous other North West towns over the next decade, as the things being said in Rochdale are the same things people say in Bolton, in Blackburn, in Burnley). the men directly involved have come from all sections of the community - many taxi drivers, yes, but also businessmen, regular mosque-goers, many generations.
> 
> why no Bangladeshi grooming gangs? why no Arab grooming gangs? why no Hindu grooming gangs? all of these communities are close knit and conservative, and undoubtedly abuse is concealed behind that, but why has it not manifested itself in the grooming gangs as seen in Rochdale, Telford, Rotherham, Derby and Oxford? clearly there is something about the structure and culture of Pakistani communities in areas of the North West and elsewhere which enables these organisations to develop and survive.



As has already been mentioned by someone on this thread (sorry, I can't remember who), that has a great deal to do with how these "large scale street grooming gangs" are defined.

As I'm sure you're aware, there have long been allegations of large scale establishment paedophile groups, as yet unproven of course, who have a different way of operating (though still favouring vulnerable kids from childrens homes), who I would hazard a guess are largely white/indigenous British/whatever, but whose activities wouldn't be included in the data for "large scale street grooming gangs".

In other words, the way you define your categories has consequences for your findings (even if these are unintended) and so you can easily end up with a correlation which doesn't tell you anything about the actual reasons behind the phenomonon you're looking at.

edited to correct bizarre spelling aberation...


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

sojourner said:


> No, I think that too. It's in the report - section 8 deals with this area.



Thanks - do you have a link handy?


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

sojourner said:


> No, I think that too. It's in the report - section 8 deals with this area.


I quoted a large chunk of it here
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...east-1400-victims.326868/page-9#post-13362887
and waffled about it a bit here
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ast-1400-victims.326868/page-26#post-13367292


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## Miss Caphat (Aug 29, 2014)

don't think this has much to do with pedophelia other than the fact that people who set out to exploit others sexually will often go after the most vulnerable and open to manipulation etc.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

One of the most depressing aspects of this is the way it shows how children in care are still let down horribly by the system. First they were abused in the homes, then that came out and hopefully is no longer such an issue, but now we find that they are instead being effectively sent out to be abused outside the homes. It's very very depressing.


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I quoted a large chunk of it here
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...east-1400-victims.326868/page-9#post-13362887
> and waffled about it a bit here
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ast-1400-victims.326868/page-26#post-13367292



Thanks for that - good to see I didn't imagine it. Here's one of the bits you quoted:



> 8.22 - A further issue of safeguarding concerned those taxi firms which had a contract with the Council to transport some of the most vulnerable children to various resources within the authority. Some of the Council's difficulty was that they did not always have the drivers' names when allegations were made. *Nor did they have a list of the drivers who transported children as part of the Council contract*.



If this is the case, the the Council was fundamentally remiss in its duty of care.

I've worked in the past with and for organisations who have a duty of care over vulnerable people, and the idea that they would simply hand over children to unnamed taxi drivers is, in itself, unforgivable.

I suggest that senior managers within the Rotherham Children's Dept need to be hauled over the fucking coals for that alone, far less what subsequently happened, but it's really much easier to focus on the supposed racial aspects of this than face the fact that mainstream British culture apparently doesn't give enough of a shit about vulnerable kids to make sure they're not sent off to be abused through taxi companies tasked with transporting them safely.


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

The immediate problem being - are they still in post?  Are the records which fail to record the names of drivers any better at identifying who took decisions ?

OFSTED announced they are going in (yesterday I think?) and I doubt this will be any kind of light touch exercise.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> Yes, that's my evidence. Got any to contradict it?



I don't need any evidence to contradict it, because your "evidence" isn't evidence - it isn't *data* - it's an expressed opinion that's unsubstantiated by anything else in the documentary.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> .....plenty of people in Rotherham did know this was going on.....looking at a crime spanning 16 yrs and hundreds of victims the calls are obviously aimed at friends, aquaintences and family members of people involved who know or suspect something was ( ....& undoubtedly still is.... ) happening, not the actual victims as I'm sure you realise perfectly well...



You appear to be eliding any role for coercion of those "friends, aquaintences [sic] and family members" - coercion that the Jay Report actively found took place - in the so-called "silence". I realise that proferring a narrative of quiet complicity is appealing, especially when attempting to analyse the social dynamics behind what has happened is so much more complex, and doesn't present you with an easily-recognisable and attackable culprit, but that doesn't mean that succumbing to the easy way of looking at the situation is at all worthy.


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> The immediate problem being - are they still in post?  Are the records which fail to record the names of drivers any better at identifying who took decisions ?
> 
> OFSTED announced they are going in (yesterday I think?) and I doubt this will be any kind of light touch exercise.



I suppose we'll have to wait and see. Call me cynical, but I really don't feel confident that much more than "lessons learned, new procedures already put in place" will come out of it.

Go on, OFSTED, prove me wrong 

ETA: I consider those responsible are not those who didn't write down the name of the driver when booking a taxi, but those in charge in didn't ensure that there were rigorous procedures in place to make sure that info was collected (and that those drivers had had enhanced CRB checks etc)and didn't have a regular and foolproof mechanism to see that those procedures were properly followed.

Ultimately, if this wasn't done, then the head of Rotherham Childrens' Services (or whatever it's called) should be held responsible. I assume there is a record of that person's name somewhere...


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

I understand what you're saying but even Child Protection services less hopeless than Rotherhams has been are operating in a situation of underfunding and of constantly choosing between impossible alternatives. They could have been designed to fail hostile inspection and I don't see that the broader politics of this offers them any protection. Entirely the opposite in fact. But we shall see, or not.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You appear to be eliding any role for coercion of those "friends, aquaintences [sic] and family members".



'Eliding'. I never heard or read that word ever. Cheers


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

BanCunnulingus! said:


> No, it is one of the main reasons.



Then why aren't all male members of sexually-repressive religious sects being pulled for raping children?
Your "reason" and your reasoning is fatuous.


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I understand what you're saying but even Child Protection services less hopeless than Rotherhams has been are operating in a situation of underfunding and of constantly choosing between impossible alternatives. They could have been designed fail hostile inspection and I don't see that the broader politics of this offers them any protection. Entirely the opposite in fact. But we shall see, or not.



Sorry, I've edited my post why you were responding. 

I'm not talking about those "operating in a situation of underfunding and of constantly choosing between impossible alternatives", for whom I have every sympathy, I'm talking about the person who choose to take the position of Head of Child Protection Services. 

You get paid to run it, you take full responsibility, including legal, if you fail to run it properly.


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...



Are you aware that at least one of the people you're still responding to have since been struck off?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I understand what you're saying but even Child Protection services less hopeless than Rotherhams has been are operating in a situation of underfunding and of constantly choosing between impossible alternatives. They could have been designed to fail hostile inspection and I don't see that the broader politics of this offers them any protection. Entirely the opposite in fact. But we shall see, or not.



It's disastrous that a social service discipline that has, for at least the last 15 years, been measured by various metrics of "best practice", can have so continuously failed the clientele, and (ever-decreasing funding, staff demoralisation and ever-increasing workloads aside) stinks to me of the plague-stench of managerialism.


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

Entirely agree (I don't think we're disagreeing) - the head will roll (if it does) because of the failings and weaknesses of the department. Quite aside from what OFSTED says - and I don't believe they will be pulling punches - the publication of the report will be a public political event given the background and that may well produce it's own dynamic.
ETA - this was a response to andysays which lost it's quote.


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's disastrous that a social service discipline that has, for at least the last 15 years, been measured by various metrics of "best practice", can have so continuously failed the clientele, and (ever-decreasing funding, staff demoralisation and ever-increasing workloads aside) stinks to me of the plague-stench of managerialism.


Indeed - the references in the Jay report to a 'bullying culture' come to mind as well. Rotherham seems to have tried every bad way of dealing with difficulties that it can.


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## Diamond (Aug 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Diamond, is that you?



Eh?


----------



## bmd (Aug 29, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's disastrous that a social service discipline that has, for at least the last 15 years, been measured by various metrics of "best practice", can have so continuously failed the clientele, and (ever-decreasing funding, staff demoralisation and ever-increasing workloads aside) stinks to me of the plague-stench of managerialism.


 
Completely agree.



> 1.14 A series of audits, reviews, assessments and inspections of the Council’s safeguarding and child protection services were conducted over this period. The Social Services Inspectorate (SSI) and later Ofsted conducted regular inspections, planned or unannounced, notably a full inspection in 2003, a follow-up in 2004, a full inspection in 2008, a ‘monitoring visit’ in 2009, an unannounced inspection in August 2009, a full inspection in 2010, an unannounced inspection in 2011, and an unannounced review of child protection services in August 2012. Following the inspection in 2009, the Minister of State for Young People and Families issued to the Council a Notice of Requirement to Improve its children’s services. The Notice was removed in January 2011.


 
Failed by OFSTED and the Minister of State for Young People and Families too. This whole sorry business really does make a mockery of Safeguarding and OFSTED.


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## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Entirely agree (I don't think we're disagreeing) - the head will roll (if it does) because of the failings and weaknesses of the department. Quite aside from what OFSTED says - and I don't believe they will be pulling punches - the publication of the report will be a public political event given the background and that may well produce it's own dynamic.
> ETA - this was a response to andysays which lost it's quote.



No, I think the only thing we perhaps disagree on is the likelihood of real change happening so that Child Protection services across the country are finally properly run and properly effective at, you know, protecting the children they're responsible for, after so many cases over recent years which appear to demonstrate the exact opposite. I'd happily be proved wrong on that one though...

And in case you're not aware, you can flag a poster by typing @poster'sname, which then comes up like this *poster'sname* and sends an alert to let them know you've mentioned them.


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## Lurdan (Aug 29, 2014)

Cheers for that andysays. I had no idea.
No I'm entirely in agreement with you (I think) - I don't believe Rotherham can avoid change but real change would involve  acknowledging that it's an issue of real resources and a real change in ethos. As things stand that doesn't seem likely.


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## Combustible (Aug 29, 2014)

There is something here about the role of identity politics in enabling the abuse. It looks like a bit of an exaggeration to say that this in itself led to the prolonged abuse because there was obviously a whole host of other factors and failings but it seems to have been important.
http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/...tivism-at-the-heart-of-the-rotherham-scandal/
http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/...tivism-at-the-heart-of-the-rotherham-scandal/


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## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i agree, but it still appears that the girls abused through _these_ organised grooming networks are by and large white. the abuse of Pakistani girls almost undoubtedly occurs but hasn't been found through the uncovering of the circles in Rotherham or Rochdale.



I don't necessarily disagree with some of the points you are making. Presently, elements of the (far) right are framing this as attacks on young white girls by grown Pakistani men. I'm sure you understand why they'd be making hay out of this. This sort of offending is complex. There's patriarchy in the offenders' culture, there's patriarchy in the country where they live, there's class prejudices in the agencies who are supposed to be protecting these vulnerable girls and also sexism and victim blaming. There's also offending of this nature by powerful white men right down to proles.

All of those things need to be discussed. This situation isn't just the patriarchy and sexism of Pakistani men and the collusion of their communities. I know you probably feel you're going out on a limb to ask difficult questions but to keep the debate in that framework is to give the (far) right a goal.


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## quiquaquo (Aug 29, 2014)

Combustible said:


> There is something here about the role of identity politics in enabling the abuse. It looks like a bit of an exaggeration to say that this in itself led to the prolonged abuse because there was obviously a whole host of other factors and failings but it seems to have been important.
> http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/...tivism-at-the-heart-of-the-rotherham-scandal/



I'd be a little wary of these "ex-Muslim Forum" types, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and that utter scumbag Magdi Allam spring to mind.


----------



## andysays (Aug 29, 2014)

Combustible said:


> There is something here about the role of identity politics in enabling the abuse. It looks like a bit of an exaggeration to say that this in itself led to the prolonged abuse because there was obviously a whole host of other factors and failings but it seems to have been important.
> http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/...tivism-at-the-heart-of-the-rotherham-scandal/



Hmm, that's an interesting read, and while I agree with the author's position that the British Left should reject identity politics and multi-culturalism, I'm not convinced that he's made a coherent argument that what's happened here (the abuse or the failure by the authorities to deal with it) is in any way a result of multi-culturalism.

He goes from asking


> if ideological multiculturalism as a political, social policy leads to a situation in which a cover up of uncomfortable issues becomes inevitable



to concluding


> In this case, it led to 1400 girls being sexually abused for a prolonged period of time, because of a warped sensibility of identity politics and multiculturalism



simply on the basis of a general critcism of multiculturalism


> Multiculturalism concerned exclusively with communal religious identity politics, pursued as a social policy, is deeply reactionary and leads to the oppression of women who feel its effect most acutely. It dehumanises us all, because it asserts that we are not individuals, but members of religious or ethnic groups who must be dealt with according to the mediated authority of ‘community leaders’. It creates inhibitions from confronting social attitudes that must be addressed urgently, and in doing so, it allows social problems to flourish



which I broadly agree with, but which doesn't have much to do with the specifics of this case.

It reads to me like an opportunistic attempt to push a (broadly correct) position into a specific situation without properly arguing how this case really demonstrates his wider argument, which is disappointing.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> Hmm, that's an interesting read, and while I agree with the author's position that the British Left should reject identity politics and multi-culturalism, I'm not convinced that he's made a coherent argument that what's happened here (the abuse or the failure by the authorities to deal with it) is in any way a result of multi-culturalism.
> 
> He goes from asking
> 
> ...



watched an interview the other day were Afshin Rattansi discussed this with a Muslim journalist and commentator . According to him local Pakistani community leaders warned of a _grave risk to community cohesion_ if the plod focussed on these serial predators who were a well known phenomenon . So they didnt.

As far as im aware its a serious criminal offence to withhold information regarding child abuse . There should be a lot more in jail than just the predators. This was well known to be happenng locally and the scale of the victims bears that out . Nothing was done because many blind eyes were turned by all sorts of people for all sorts of self serving reasons.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2014)

andysays said:


> Hmm, that's an interesting read, and while I agree with the author's position that the British Left should reject identity politics and multi-culturalism, I'm not convinced that he's made a coherent argument that what's happened here (the abuse or the failure by the authorities to deal with it) is in any way a result of multi-culturalism.
> 
> He goes from asking
> 
> ...



I don't agree that it doesn't address the specifics as stated in the report. The report says this:

_11.13 Both the Council and the Police used traditional channels of communication with the
Pakistani-heritage community for many years on general issues of child protection.
There seemed, from all accounts, to be very few, if any, specific discussions of CSE,
though this was difficult to verify. These contacts were almost exclusively with men. _

And concludes:

_11.17 With hindsight, it is clear that women and girls in the Pakistani community in
Rotherham should have been encouraged and empowered by the authorities to
speak out about perpetrators and their own experiences as victims of sexual
exploitation, so often hidden from sight. The Safeguarding Board has recently
received a presentation from a local Pakistani women's group about abuse within
their community. The Board should address as a priority the under-reporting of
exploitation and abuse in minority ethnic communities. We recommend that the
relevant agencies immediately initiate dialogue about CSE with minority ethnic
communities, and in particular with the Pakistani-heritage community. This should be
done in consultation with local women's groups, and should develop strategies that
support young women and girls from the community to participate without fear or
threat._


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with some of the points you are making. Presently, elements of the (far) right are framing this as attacks on young white girls by grown Pakistani men. I'm sure you understand why they'd be making hay out of this. This sort of offending is complex. There's patriarchy in the offenders' culture, there's patriarchy in the country where they live, there's class prejudices in the agencies who are supposed to be protecting these vulnerable girls and also sexism and victim blaming. There's also offending of this nature by powerful white men right down to proles.
> 
> All of those things need to be discussed. This situation isn't just the patriarchy and sexism of Pakistani men and the collusion of their communities. I know you probably feel you're going out on a limb to ask difficult questions but to keep the debate in that framework is to give the (far) right a goal.



most certainly the far right are benefiting from this, but i think their gains are exaggerated by the fact that the left has driven itself into a strategical hole. it's the left which has pushed a general doctrine which associates race with culture, it's the left which has tied it's colours to an ideology in which it is impossible to disassociate the two things - and now, faced with a situation which demands a more complicated analysis the left is unable to do anything other than ignore very present, obvious features about this case and try and shut down the social discussion with accusations of racism. in short, i think we've shut ourselves out of the serious discussion with working class people from these communities altogether - both Pakistani and non.

what i think these cases highlight is that if backwards attitudes from migrant groups are not challenged from the left, they will be challenged from the right. we need to take off the kid gloves and forthrightly argue for our universal principles of how people should be treated, regardless of background, gender, race or ethnicity. sometimes that will run contrary to the views of some of the groups we defend - on other questions - from the right. that might be uncomfortable but unless we are consistent in our demands as to the universal worth of every individual then we just won't win.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

Again, you're splitting this crime along racial lines. Why? Just fucking why?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 29, 2014)

_ we need to all have a serious think about the theft occuring by black youths. The black community needs to be more active and stop shielding these people. _

This is what it all boils down to then?


----------



## toggle (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Again, you're splitting this crime along racial lines. Why? Just fucking why?



blame the 'other'. 

easier than engaging with the fact that society failed to protect some of ti's more vulnerable members, because they aren't valued and because no one listens to them


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 29, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> we need to take off the kid gloves and forthrightly argue for our universal principles of how people should be treated, regardless of background, gender, race or ethnicity. sometimes that will run contrary to the views of some of the groups we defend - on other questions - from the right.


I wholeheartedly agree with this sentence. An example would be the niqab - you defend strenuously the right to wear it while at the same time not holding back from pointing out that a woman who wears one in public has literally no public face and so is handing over political and social power in public spaces to the men in her community. 

However, how is this relevant here? You're implying that these crimes are at least in part a result of generally held views within British Pakistani communities. Can you back this up? Are not the majority of British Pakistanis _fucking appalled _by what these men did? If they are, then the sentiment in this sentence is irrelevant.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 29, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> _ we need to all have a serious think about the theft occuring by black youths. The black community needs to be more active and stop shielding these people. _
> 
> This is what it all boils down to then?



Is that aimed at my post? You should reply explicitly if so.

The article quoted criticises multiculturalism specifically in reference to the oppression of women and the way in which state bodies relate to religious leaders as representatives of 'communities'. That's not just a generalised criticism in my view because it relates to statements in the report, as I quoted, that refer to girls and women of Pakistani heritage being ignored by the authorities.

Not sure how you go from that to suggesting I am saying all the responsibility for cse in Rotherham lies with people of Pakistani heritage.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 30, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> Is that aimed at my post? You should reply explicitly if so.
> 
> The article quoted criticises multiculturalism specifically in reference to the oppression of women and the way in which state bodies relate to religious leaders as representatives of 'communities'. That's not just a generalised criticism in my view because it relates to statements in the report, as I quoted, that refer to girls and women of Pakistani heritage being ignored by the authorities.
> 
> Not sure how you go from that to suggesting I am saying the responsibility for cse in Rotherham lies with people of Pakistani heritage.


It wasn't in response to anything you said. It was part of a discussion with das uberdog. I like your reply though (can't respond presently as about to go to sleep but don't think it warrants a response either). 

Sometimes in threads if I'm busy I'll just pursue certain arguments I'm actively engaged in. It never crossed my mind that might be confusing for others (but seems obvious now).


----------



## Das Uberdog (Aug 30, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Again, you're splitting this crime along racial lines. Why? Just fucking why?



... that's the opposite of what that post was doing. i was saying that cultural criticisms can be totally separated from race. i actually think we're almost on the same page from your previous post -




			
				Citizen66 said:
			
		

> This sort of offending is complex. There's patriarchy in the offenders' culture, there's patriarchy in the country where they live, there's class prejudices in the agencies who are supposed to be protecting these vulnerable girls and also sexism and victim blaming. There's also offending of this nature by powerful white men right down to proles.



... that's exactly the conversation i think we need to be having, on that level of complexity and with all of the nuances associated with the various different strands. what i get from much of the left is a total unwillingness to engage on those issues and instead attempt - in particular - to push the issue of different cultures into the background (when in fact it makes up, from what all the stats show us, an integrally important aspect of the whole). 




			
				littlebabyjesus said:
			
		

> However, how is this relevant here? You're implying that these crimes are at least in part a result of generally held views within British Pakistani communities. Can you back this up? Are not the majority of British Pakistanis _fucking appalled _by what these men did? If they are, then the sentiment in this sentence is irrelevant.



i think both things are true - there are in part some commonly held views in the community which can lend themselves to a toleration of some abuses... at the same time, the majority of British Pakistanis are absolutely appalled by these events. in fact, many public faces in the Pakistani community thus far have been the first to step forward and say that the community as a whole needs to look within itself and self-criticise.

we just can't ignore it - that's the worst thing we can do.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 30, 2014)

I just don't know of any other community who are thrust into the spotlight when some of them have commited crime. The only other context I can think of where this happens is with travellers. But not on this level. It's bizarre and racist.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 30, 2014)

and the usual parade of voices line up to tell 'the left' that 'the left' is unable to be on the right side of the argument here.


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 30, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> It wasn't in response to anything you said. It was part of a discussion with das uberdog. I like your reply though (can't respond presently as about to go to sleep but don't think it warrants a response either).
> 
> Sometimes in threads if I'm busy I'll just pursue certain arguments I'm actively engaged in. It never crossed my mind that might be confusing for others (but seems obvious now).



ok.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and the usual parade of voices line up to tell 'the left' that 'the left' is unable to be on the right side of the argument here.



What 'left'?


----------



## quiquaquo (Aug 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> What 'left'?



Every single last person who works in Social Services for starters presumably.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 30, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> Every single last person who works in Social Services for starters presumably.



?


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 30, 2014)

In terms of complexity, I think it's also inaccurate and a simplification to present this as no one or society not giving a shit. It's important to notice where good work was done, it's important to differentiate the good work done by youth workers, for example, from the neglect and collusion of senior managers in children's services, councillors, the police and governments, and to acknowledge the conflict between workers with little power and people in control of state organisations.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 30, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> Every single last person who works in Social Services for starters presumably.



Well?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 30, 2014)

watched an interview the other day were Afshin Rattansi discussed this with a Muslim journalist and commentator . According to him local Pakistani community leaders warned of a _grave risk to community cohesion_ if the plod focussed on these serial predators who were a well known phenomenon . So they didnt.


So race was used as an excuse for inaction and some so called community leaders were scum
 Valuing the "honour" /good name of the community as more important than stopping child rapists

Well that plan worked well 

Its a pity theres no viable political alternative worth a damm because rotherham needs a stable sweepout.


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2014)

Two new developments, the Mayor of Liverpool has confirmed he is going to question the city's chief exec, Ged Fitzgerald, over his actions/inactions/knowledge during the period he was CEO of Rotherham Council and radio 4 had an interview with a former policewoman in Greater Manchester, Margaret Oliver, who appeared very angry that she was aware through her investigations that hundreds of men committed thousands of rapes and are still walking the streets. She was angered about the fact that the girls she interviewed, who gave names and car reg numbers, we're ignored and unsupported because of what she was convinced "was fear of being branded racist"


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 30, 2014)

…I see the "....well-Jimmy-Savile-was-white..."  issue keeps bobbing-up like one of those white polystyrene things in the swimming pool …it seems such an obvious category-error to try to equate a self-contained ethnic community – self-identified as such complete with its own community-leaders with some amorphous mass of 60 million people  and try to make parallels…

….as stated the BBC *as an institution* was given a total slagging for turning a blind-eye & rightly so..….the Pope just got on and apologised over the sex-abuse scandal…its just what you should do….he didn’t start saying …what about all those really GREAT priests out there helping their parishioners without molesting them…..and anyway I bet those CofE bastards are a bunch of kiddy-fiddlers as well…

….bizarre attitude…as is the idea from posters on here that expecting the Pakistan community to clean up its act is some sort of dastardly plot to upset them instead of holding them to exactly the same standards as we would expect of anyone and everyone else….

as per this useful framework posted upthread its obvious there is an ethnic / racial dimension to each of these 3 aspects …its not the whole story by any degree but to try to airbrush it out of the picture completely for ideological reasons or because it supposedly grants some great political victory to the BNP…who in any case seem to be in a totally dire state….is just denial



> I think there are 3 main elements to this case:
> •The Boys/men why did they do it?
> •The victims, why were they chosen?
> •How did they get away with it who are to blame?


….I presume we’ll all be watching this doco. on Monday….interesting timing to say the least



> Pakistan's Hidden Shame documentary to air on Channel 4
> 28 Apr 2014  News Releases
> http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/pakistans-hidden-shame-documentary-to-air-on-channel-4
> Pakistan is one of the world's most important Muslim nations, a nuclear power, which is allied to the West in the war against terror and a democracy. But Pakistan is also a country in denial, turning a blind eye to the sexual exploitation of many thousands of poor and vulnerable children.
> ...


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2014)

Panorama special on Rotherham Monday 8.30 BBC1


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

likesfish said:


> watched an interview the other day were Afshin Rattansi discussed this with a Muslim journalist and commentator . According to him local Pakistani community leaders warned of a _grave risk to community cohesion_ if the plod focussed on these serial predators who were a well known phenomenon . So they didnt.
> 
> 
> So race was used as an excuse for inaction and some so called community leaders were scum
> ...


Ah, that old chestnut. 'local community leaders'. What elected office did these 'local community leaders' hold, or were they of the self-appointing variety?


----------



## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

DotCommunist said:


> and the usual parade of voices line up to tell 'the left' that 'the left' is unable to be on the right side of the argument here.



So, instead of debating, let's just lump people into opposing categories. The them and us. That way it's easier to dismiss their uncomfortable arguments, isn't it. I find this kind of lazy dismissive post offensive.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 30, 2014)

Maybe returning ISIS members could be recruited to behead these rapists. Two birds with one stone.


----------



## sojourner (Aug 30, 2014)

andysays said:


> Thanks - do you have a link handy?


andysays  - not sure if you got one in the end, but you can download it from the Rotherham Council site. Their slogan is 'where everyone matters'. Just - speechless.

http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 30, 2014)

Why do brown people have to be ashamed and sorry because of the actions of scum they don't even know just because they are they same skin colour? Srs question?


----------



## J Ed (Aug 30, 2014)

I bet Sarah Champion is loving all of this after the flak she got from the local LP for being parachuted in.


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> watched an interview the other day were Afshin Rattansi discussed this with a Muslim journalist and commentator . According to him local Pakistani community leaders warned of a _grave risk to community cohesion_ if the plod focussed on these serial predators who were a well known phenomenon . So they didnt.
> 
> As far as im aware its a serious criminal offence to withhold information regarding child abuse . There should be a lot more in jail than just the predators. This was well known to be happenng locally and the scale of the victims bears that out . Nothing was done because many blind eyes were turned by all sorts of people for all sorts of self serving reasons.



That's not referred to in the article I'm commenting on (which is not to say it isn't true).

I'm not saying bureaucratic multiculturalism didn't play a (small) part, I'm saying the author of the article hasn't made a proper argument that it did.


----------



## IC3D (Aug 30, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Why do brown people have to be ashamed and sorry because of the actions of scum they don't even know just because they are they same skin colour? Srs question?


who said they did?


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> …I see the "....well-Jimmy-Savile-was-white..."  issue keeps bobbing-up like one of those white polystyrene things in the swimming pool …it seems such an obvious category-error to try to equate a self-contained ethnic community – self-identified as such complete with its own community-leaders with some amorphous mass of 60 million people  and try to make parallels…



So there is a totally self-contained "pakistani community" is there? Is this in Britain, in Yorkshire, or in Rotherham specifically? And all its members are collectively responsible for the actions of all the others are they? 

Next you'll be telling us that all these people need to be registered and identified so that the rest of us (the amorphous mass...) can recognise exactly who they are, perhaps we could insist that they all have a big fuck-off crescent sown onto their clothes so the rest of us can avoid them like the untermensch they clearly are...


----------



## andysays (Aug 30, 2014)

sojourner said:


> andysays  - not sure if you got one in the end, but you can download it from the Rotherham Council site. Their slogan is 'where everyone matters'. Just - speechless.
> 
> http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham



I got what I was after, thanks.

I confess I'm not inclined to read through the entire report, but should I change my mind, I'll know where to look.


----------



## likesfish (Aug 30, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Why do brown people have to be ashamed and sorry because of the actions of scum they don't even know just because they are they same skin colour? Srs question?



They should be angry that apprantly some so called " community leaders" thought covering up the activitys of a pack of child rapists was a good thing to do
  " hello mr isis veteran heres a list of apostates in rotherham we know they dont  attend mosque and like a drink and hang out with women who arnt belivers"
  Love bob mi5

And no fucks were given that day


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I bet Sarah Champion is loving all of this after the flak she got from the local LP for being parachuted in.



Pm'ed you


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 30, 2014)

likesfish said:


> They should be angry that apprantly some so called " community leaders" thought covering up the activitys of a pack of child rapists was a good thing to do
> " hello mr isis veteran heres a list of apostates in rotherham we know they dont  attend mosque and like a drink and hang out with women who arnt belivers"
> Love bob mi5
> 
> And no fucks were given that day



I don't even know what that means.



IC3D said:


> who said they did?



Referring to hot air balloons quote from the docs. And others on here who are blaming Pakistani community.


----------



## xenon (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah, that old chestnut. 'local community leaders'. What elected office did these 'local community leaders' hold, or were they of the self-appointing variety?



Someone keeps paying attention to them. Isn't that a feature of this apparent problem with multiculturism. i.e. You have a section of the population, a portion of the British Parkistarnie population in this case, who for cultural reasons, language, strong family and religious ties that may inhibit interactions in wider society, being represented by people with their own agendas and status to preserve. 

Anyway I know this has been said a few times.I agree, the emphasis on authorities not investigating and metaphorically cracking heads, due to being perceived as racist. Well I find that hard to buy. It likely is a part. But Police officers believing 12 YO girls haven't been raped because they consented. That's not fear of racism. That's dangerously ignorant, unforgiveably uninterested or corrupt IMO.


----------



## seventh bullet (Aug 30, 2014)

Aye, they were just little chavs to them.


----------



## xenon (Aug 30, 2014)

Yeah, what a stinking ctoxic mix of self interest, classism, racism, and misogyny . 1400 alleged victims. Rotherham's not that big. This stuff must have been in their faces, in reports,rumors, insinuations heard and ignored every fucking day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2014)

treelover said:


> Pm'ed you


(((J Ed)))


----------



## belboid (Aug 30, 2014)

xenon said:


> Yeah, what a stinking ctoxic mix of self interest, classism, racism, and misogyny . 1400 alleged victims. Rotherham's not that big. This stuff must have been in their faces, in reports,rumors, insinuations heard and ignored every fucking day.


Of courses it was. I know people who submitted those reports ten and more years ago. Sonia Sharp knew exactly what was going on, which is why she ran away to Australia. People knew exactly which taxi companies were involved. But it would have taken money to do something abut it, and there's fuck all of that in rotherham.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

Combustible said:


> There is something here about the role of identity politics in enabling the abuse. It looks like a bit of an exaggeration to say that this in itself led to the prolonged abuse because there was obviously a whole host of other factors and failings but it seems to have been important.
> http://leftfootforward.org/2014/08/...tivism-at-the-heart-of-the-rotherham-scandal/



Interesting, although what he refers to as "identity politics" is aimed specifically at the reduction of the British Pakistani population in Rotherham, and of ethnic minorities in general to the "lowest common denominator shared attributes of members of the community, i.e. "Pakistani" and "Muslim", which gives the "old guard" community spokesman types all the power, and the bulk of the community no ability to communicate their concerns.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

quiquaquo said:


> I'd be a little wary of these "ex-Muslim Forum" types, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and that *other* utter scumbag Magdi Allam spring to mind.



Fixed for you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> What 'left'?



The imaginary cohesive left that treelover believes in, and that rightists also delude themselves exists.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> ?



I think he means that certain elements of the right appear to consider all social workers as _de facto_ lefties because they perform a "social" role.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

seventh bullet said:


> ?



double post


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah, that old chestnut. 'local community leaders'. What elected office did these 'local community leaders' hold, or were they of the self-appointing variety?



They're *always* either self-appointed or self-nominated, IME.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> So, instead of debating, let's just lump people into opposing categories. The them and us. That way it's easier to dismiss their uncomfortable arguments, isn't it. I find this kind of lazy dismissive post offensive.



Frankly, you're being somewhat lazy and dismissive yourself, by not realising that debate actual does exactly that - it places actors in binary opposition. 
As for opposing categories making arguments easily dismissable, only if your argument is poor can't be dismissed, except by an idiot who doesn't understand the argument, or an ideologue who refuses to accept the basis of the argument.  Either way, the idiot and the ideologue both reveal themselves for what they are if they dismiss a sound argument.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 30, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Why do brown people have to be ashamed and sorry because of the actions of scum they don't even know just because they are they same skin colour? Srs question?



who said they do ? As far as i can see its largely white people who run the state services that looked the other way and took no action.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> who said they do ? As far as i can see its largely white people who run the state services that looked the other way and took no action.


It is largely _the people_ who run state services. Many or most white, others not. Their whiteness or not is also beside the point. Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.

Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here, imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Frankly, you're being somewhat lazy and dismissive yourself, by not realising that debate actual does exactly that - it places actors in binary opposition.
> As for opposing categories making arguments easily dismissable, only if your argument is poor can't be dismissed, except by an idiot who doesn't understand the argument, or an ideologue who refuses to accept the basis of the argument.  Either way, the idiot and the ideologue both reveal themselves for what they are if they dismiss a sound argument.



The statement I was critisizing is a blatant example of the sectarian mindset.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is largely _the people_ who run state services. Many or most white, others not. *Their whiteness or not is also beside the point.* Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.
> 
> Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here, imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race.



I disagree, it is an important factor in the equation,especially if a fear of being labelled racist is the reason why they covered up. It would, if proven, show that political correctness is to blame for not nipping this rot in the bud at it's onset, and subsequently allowing it to go on and on for years destroying lives.

It is this perception of PC (white middle class bending over backwards for minorities) that is partly to blame for a broad section of the working class supporting rightwing political parties whilst feeling totally alienated from the left. (Don't ask that smarmy question, what is the left.)


----------



## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

does anyone that dosen't have a pre existing anti-pc agenda( the "i'll call a spade a spade and a black person a ******* if i want to" twonks) actually believe that that the police are so obsessed with not looking racist that this was the only or even major reason for not investigating rapes, especially considering the long term, widespread failures that have been highlighted in their handling of rape cases, eg, mistreatment of victims, or recording reported rapes as 'no crime'

reporting their failures as due to a fear of accusation of racism is about absolving them of responsibility, 'the left' the 'pc brigade' etc can be blamed for this fucking abysmal failure (and for their reputation for being a bunch of racist arseholes), rather than having to take a good fucking look as to why they might be called racist and why they failed to do their jobs properly


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

I stand to be proven wrong, but the idea that in this country, the police and other authorities will look the other way and let you get away with more stuff if you're a member of an ethnic minority, well, that's not the police force I know.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is largely _the people_ who run state services. Many or most white, others not. Their whiteness or not is also beside the point. Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.
> 
> Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here, imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race.


I agree that is the real story. And they aren't just white people, either. But if some stories are to be believed there is a side order of Mafia-like behaviour in some quarters (and no, nobody holds Italians in general responsible for the Mafia.) How much credence should we give to issues such as the fact that the 2003 and 2006 reports 'set out the links between child sexual exploitation and drugs, guns and criminality in the Borough'?
And this from the report: 





> 8.16 *One of the common threads running through child sexual exploitation across England has been the prominent role of taxi drivers in being directly linked to children who were abused.* This was the case in Rotherham from a very early stage, when residential care home heads met in the nineties to share intelligence about taxis and other cars which picked up girls from outside their units. In the early 2000s some secondary school heads were reporting girls being picked up at lunchtime at the school gates and being taken away to provide oral sex to men in the lunch break.


Or this: 





> 8.21 The Safeguarding Unit convened Strategy meetings from time to time on allegations involving taxi drivers. We read some of the most serious, from 2010, and were struck by the sense of exasperation, even hopelessness, recorded as the professionals in attendance tried to find ways of disrupting the suspected activity. Strategy meetings about one specific taxi firm had been held on four occasions in a seven week period. The minutes of one meeting record a total of ten girls and young women, three of whom were involved in three separate incidents of alleged attempted abduction by taxi drivers. The seven other girls had alleged that they were being sexually exploited in exchange for free taxi rides and goods. Two of the girls involved were looked after children. The Licensing Enforcement Officer took the step of formally writing to the Police following the incidents of alleged attempted abductions by drivers, complaining about the Police failure to act. In one incident, a driver accosted a 13-year-old girl. She refused to do what he asked and reported this to her parents who followed the taxi through the town, where they managed to identify the driver and dialled 999 for assistance. According to the Licensing Enforcement Officer, the Police did not attend until later and took no action. In his email to the Police he stated that 'a simple check would have revealed that the driver had been arrested a week previously in Bradford for a successful kidnapping of a lone female.' He concluded by acknowledging that police priorities were not the same as Licensing, but he 'should not be holding this together on his own'.
> 8.22 A further issue of safeguarding concerned those taxi firms which had a contract with the Council to transport some of the most vulnerable children to various resources within the authority. *Some of the Council’s difficulty was that they did not always have the drivers' names when allegations were made. Nor did they have a list of the drivers who transported children as part of the Council contract*.


or this 





> (The researcher Dr Heald in her 2003 report) described a particular case that was 'the final straw'. 18 In 2001, a young girl who had been repeatedly raped had tried to escape her perpetrators but was terrified of reprisals. They had allegedly put all the windows in at the parental home and broken both of her brother's legs 'to send a message'. At that point, the child agreed to make a complaint to the Police. The researcher took her to the police station office where she would be interviewed in advance in order to familiarise her with the place and the officer who would be conducting the interview. Whilst there, the girl received a text from the main perpetrator. He had with him her 11-year old sister. He said repeatedly to her 'your choice…'. The girl did not proceed with the complaint. She disengaged from the pilot and project and is quoted by the researcher as saying 'you can't protect me'. *This incident raised questions about how the perpetrator knew where the young woman was and what she was doing*.


There is more, much more in the report. And there is much more online naming particular councillors with taxi interests who profess ignorance of any problem, if you dig around.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

Perhaps the Council and Police were held back from interfering with the activity of the taxi firms involved out of reasonable concern that it would be an unwarranted attack on small business, local recreational facilities and the free market.


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## Casually Red (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It is largely _the people_ who run state services. Many or most white, others not. Their whiteness or not is also beside the point. Even here, it is easy to introduce race where it is not needed.
> *
> Disregard of state services for vulnerable people at the wrong end of society is the real story here*, *imo. And that story can and should be stated without reference to race*.



dont think it can really because one of the problems with these very people was the directives they were sending to their underlings identified as failings in the Jay report

_The recent report by Professor Alexis Jay described how “by far the majority of perpetrators were described as ‘Asian’ by victims” but that * “several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist”* and *“others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so”*. Citing a 2013 House of Commons Home Affairs Committee report on “Child sexual exploitation and the response to grooming”, *Jay concluded “People must be able to raise concerns without fear of being labelled racist.”*_

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/something-rotten-in-the-town-of-rotherham-9700500.html

you seem to be arguing for the same policy they implemented which kn turn seems to have contributed n part to rape and abuse on an industrial scale. Along with other issues certainly . But unlike other abuse and rape cases were the state manages to take some action at least this s a case were 1400 kids.at least...were attacked with nothing done . To me thats on a scale were the usual run of the mill incompetence and sexism smply doesnt cut t as an explanaton.

To make matters worse it also appears well known that the only tax driver in Rotherham these same people banned from transporting children was white. issues like that mean race and issues surrounding it will naturally enough linked to this issue . And taking it further another set of victims that very little is said or known about are the Pakistani girls who were attacked too. Who faced an even worse situation due to issues such as _honour_ and future marriage prospects which are directly tied to race .

You couldnt seriously expect race not be mentioned in a case of _black teenager shot by white cop_ . Same with this...if fear of racism accusations contributed to inaction... and fear of shame within an ethnic group led to non reporting race is an unavoidable issue in this case.  Along with a host of others. Because certainly this would not have been permitted happen to bankers and stockbrokers daughters on such a scale within a small town were everyone appears to have been aware of it. Teachers apparently chasing these animals away from school gates for crissakes.

id agree theres also a real danger that some of those who looked away will try and hide behind the fear of racism issue to justify their criminal incompetence. But that in turn doesnt mean that wasnt a real issue either for others. Along with class which id agree is being shoved to the background.

But the way  see it one of the major fall outs of this is community relations in places lie Rotherham . The race issue is well out of the bottle there front and centre and  i dont see how it can be put back in unless its discussed head on. if people pretend theres no issues surrounding race in this case ..at least racial perceptions..it amounts to a head in the sand approach . in Rotherham today the 2 issues are inextricably linked in peoples minds. That cant conceivably be addressed without discussing  both race and this case.


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I stand to be proven wrong, but the idea that in this country, the police and other authorities will look the other way and let you get away with more stuff if you're a member of an ethnic minority, well, that's not the police force I know.



me either.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> dont think it can really because one of the problems with these very people was the directives they were sending to their underlings identified as failings in the Jay report
> 
> _The recent report by Professor Alexis Jay described how “by far the majority of perpetrators were described as ‘Asian’ by victims” but that * “several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought racist”* and *“others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so”*. Citing a 2013 House of Commons Home Affairs Committee report on “Child sexual exploitation and the response to grooming”, *Jay concluded “People must be able to raise concerns without fear of being labelled racist.”*_
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not saying 'don't mention race' where it is relevant. But sometimes it can obscure what is going on and this may well be the case here. Clearly the prejudices of the police and authorities go far beyond race - and they will no doubt have been prejudiced against these girls as poor trash.

But where is race relevant here? I don't see either the race of the girls or of the people in authority who failed to do their jobs as relevant. I don't find the idea that 'pc' concerns prevented action here at all credible - and without some firm evidence that such concerns were important, I'm going to assume that they were nothing to do with this. Not that you've done this (I was nitpicking a bit with you, tbf), but the idea that there was a fear to confront these men because of their Pakistani origin plays into the hands of the racist morons who've popped up on this thread. Far more likely are everyday incompetence, lack of giving a shit about poor girls, and corruption.

I do take your point that there are confused people out there who tie themselves up in knots because they don't really understand what being racist is, and so have no clear means of judging whether they themselves are being racist or not. But I'm also rather suspicious of the arse-covering going on here.


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## likesfish (Aug 30, 2014)

Well the police dont care about individual "ethnics"
A complicated investigation  that may involve a riot and a lot of bad press about racism is another matter best avoided.


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## bmd (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> I disagree, it is an important factor in the equation,especially if a fear of being labelled racist is the reason why they covered up. It would, if proven, show that political correctness is to blame for not nipping this rot in the bud at it's onset, and subsequently allowing it to go on and on for years destroying lives.
> 
> It is this perception of PC (white middle class bending over backwards for minorities) that is partly to blame for a broad section of the working class supporting rightwing political parties whilst feeling totally alienated from the left. (Don't ask that smarmy question, what is the left.)


 
If you read the report it says that this is a side issue. It's just that some people have a poorly hidden agenda  regarding it and given half a chance they bang the PC gorn mad drum.


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## Casually Red (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm certainly not saying 'don't mention race' where it is relevant. But sometimes it can obscure what is going on and this may well be the case here. Clearly the prejudices of the police and authorities go far beyond race - and they will no doubt have been prejudiced against these girls as poor trash.
> 
> But where is race relevant here? I don't see either the race of the girls or of the people in authority who failed to do their jobs as relevant. I don't find the idea that 'pc' concerns prevented action here at all credible - and without some firm evidence that such concerns were important, I'm going to assume that they were nothing to do with this. Not that you've done this (I was nitpicking a bit with you, tbf), but the idea that there was a fear to confront these men because of their Pakistani origin plays into the hands of the racist morons who've popped up on this thread. Far more likely are everyday incompetence, lack of giving a shit about poor girls, and corruption.




the corruption angle was one  i wasnt aware of . But it maes sense now especially concerning the fear these scum instilled . That interview i spoke of earlier alluded to some of these chldren telling their parents if they didnt go with these men its the family whod suffer . Obvously a real fear of serious violence at play too .

if it comes up on youtube ill post it up..it handled the race issue pretty sensibly. And both participants were themselves Asian .


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Well the police dont care about individual "ethnics"
> A complicated investigation  that may involve a riot and a lot of bad press about racism is another matter best avoided.



so they hid their head in the sand, until a problem became a huge problem that would require a huge investigation with potential accusations of racism. their failure to act earlier cannot be excused as a fear of a complicated investigation. 

could the alternative not be that they couldn't give enough of a crap to investigate earlier and by the time it became clear there were a lot of complaints and a lot of girls involved, there was also considerable arse covering going on as to why they hadn't investigated earlier. culminating in claims they were too scared to bother all those brown people


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

toggle said:


> *does anyone that dosen't have a pre existing anti-pc agenda( the "i'll call a spade a spade and a black person a ******* if i want to" twonks*) actually believe that that the police are so obsessed with not looking racist that this was the only or even major reason for not investigating rapes, especially considering the long term, widespread failures that have been highlighted in their handling of rape cases, eg, mistreatment of victims, or recording reported rapes as 'no crime'
> 
> reporting their failures as due to a fear of accusation of racism is about absolving them of responsibility, 'the left' the 'pc brigade' etc can be blamed for this fucking abysmal failure (and for their reputation for being a bunch of racist arseholes), rather than having to take a good fucking look as to why they might be called racist and why they failed to do their jobs properly



Casually Red has just posted evidence (from the report) that fear of being branded racist is a major factor in the corruption of events in this case. That is a fear cultivated by Political correctness. However, you believe anybody who has an anti PC agenda is somehow a racist, you actually say this. You must feel some gratification from this case knowing that the people who failed the victims, however rotten they are, have at least kept their anti racist credentials intact.


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

no, he's provided reports of people claiming that they were too scared of being branded racist. this is a long way from proving their actual motivation.

that there are a lot of people jumping up and down ready to spout anti-pc shite in this case does show how effective an excuse this is. far better to blame the pc brigade than admit that their own miserable failure to do their jobs properly led to a lot of girls being repeatedly raped


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## bmd (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Casually Red has just posted evidence (from the report) that fear of being branded racist is a major factor in the corruption of events in this case. That is a fear cultivated by Political correctness. However, you believe anybody who has an anti PC agenda is somehow a racist, you actually say this. You must feel some gratification from this case knowing that the people who failed the victims, however rotten they are, have at least kept their anti racist credentials intact.


 
Where does it say in the report that it was a major factor? You clearly have an agenda here. Let me guess, those people get away with all sorts that white people wouldn't. Just say it, grow a pair and say it.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2014)

> That is a fear cultivated by Political correctness....


 The fear of being branded a racist is not brought about by catchy terms like _political correctness_... If the fear of being branded a racist exists it's usually because 1) people acknowledge racism exists and/or 2) They are about to say something dodgey..._'I'm not racist but....' _


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Well the police dont care about individual "ethnics"
> A complicated investigation  that may involve a riot and a lot of bad press about racism is another matter best avoided.



Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

bmd said:


> Where does it say in the report that it was a major factor? You clearly have an agenda here. Let me guess, those people get away with all sorts that white people wouldn't. Just say it, grow a pair and say it.



Well how else did it go on for so long? The only other motive I can think of would be corruption, ie paid to shut up, but that hasn't come out. Don't jump the gun.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.


No, I think that is about what was said. I'd like to have some names here. Just one name of one of the 'community leaders' would do, who they met, when, and what they said.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2014)

People knew this was happening...it didn't matter who was doing it, their jobs were to report it and protect vulnerable children, they let it happen, they didn't do their jobs...the ethnicity of the perpetrators is not and should never have been an issue. Interesting that it is now....because heads are rolling and well people want to cover their arses!


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

i mean ffs, 

as excuses go. it's a doozy. if you have to make them up, at least go for the big ones


all those black and brown people, expecting to be treated with respect and not be called names and denied access to services or abused and the white peopole who aggree that black and brown people should be treated as actual people, it's all their fault that I let hundreds of girls be raped.


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## bmd (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.


 
Jesus fucking Christ, stop standing behind other peoples words and say your own. You are dying for thus to be about 'those people' getting away with this because of their race. They were criminals and paedophiles who found a way to circumvent the law, social services, their own community and so on. And yet here you are, banging on about PC gorn mad.


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Well how else did it go on for so long? The only other motive I can think of would be corruption, ie paid to shut up, but that hasn't come out. Don't jump the gun.



your inability to think of alternatives dosen't seem to be such a problem to people who haven't already made their minds up to accept the authorities passing the buck



> so they hid their head in the sand, until a problem became a huge problem that would require a huge investigation with potential accusations of racism. their failure to act earlier cannot be excused as a fear of a complicated investigation.
> 
> could the alternative not be that they couldn't give enough of a crap to investigate earlier and by the time it became clear there were a lot of complaints and a lot of girls involved, there was also considerable arse covering going on as to why they hadn't investigated earlier. culminating in claims they were too scared to bother all those brown people


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.



an unsubstantiated allegation made by someone who has failed to do their job, seeking to find someone else to blame. this is not credible evidence


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## bmd (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Well how else did it go on for so long? The only other motive I can think of would be corruption, ie paid to shut up, but that hasn't come out. Don't jump the gun.


 
Clearly because every single person who knew about this was so politically correct that they couldn't face the idea of mentioning criminal gangs prostituting 1400 children out to paedophiles. That's obviously what happened.


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> The fear of being branded a racist is not brought about by catchy terms like _political correctness_... If the fear of being branded a racist exists it's usually because 1) people acknowledge racism exists and/or 2) They are about to say something dodgey..._'I'm not racist but....' _



It's not fear of terms but fear of ostricism, peer pressure, knee jerk accustions of racism, which have been pointed out on the thread, can and do lead to dismissal at work. I have witnessed this myself when I was a militant in a left wing party.


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> People knew this was happening...it didn't matter who was doing it, their jobs were to report it and protect vulnerable children, they let it happen, they didn't do their jobs...the ethnicity of the perpetrators is not and should never have been an issue. Interesting that it is now....because heads are rolling and well people want to cover their arses!





even if a fear of being branded racist was a proven factor rather than arse covering buck passing bullshit, whose fault is it that the police might be branded racist? might it be the fault of every officer that has acted in a racist manner and every officer who has helped cover that shit up? every failed investigation into racist murders? every incident of mistreatment of a vulnerable black person? I'm sure someone who follows reports of incidents of police racism can add to this list. 

if the police didn't have a reputation for being racist that is caused by them being racist, then the race of perpetrators would be of no concern in an investigation and of no concern to the community they were investigating. 

don't want to be called racist? try not being so fucking racist then.


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> It's not fear of terms but fear of ostricism, peer pressure, knee jerk accustions of racism, which have been pointed out on the thread, can and do lead to dismissal at work. I have witnessed this myself when I was a militant in a left wing party.


I shall rename myself sleeping beauty and ask for how long I have been away from this world? the police in my day were not like this. this is a better place, come sing with me brother and we shall celebrate my reawakening.


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

bmd said:


> Clearly because every single person who knew about this was so politically correct that they couldn't face the idea of mentioning criminal gangs prostituting 1400 children out to paedophiles. That's obviously what happened.



Well, what is the alternative answer, then. It cannot be just incompetence.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> It's not fear of terms but fear of ostricism, peer pressure, knee jerk accustions of racism, which have been pointed out on the thread, can and do lead to dismissal at work. I have witnessed this myself when I was a militant in a left wing party.




Think about it...THEY had evidence, lots of it...they would not have been ostricised, even if one or two people may have had reservations...This is a handy after thought/excuse.


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Think about it...THEY had evidence, lots of it...they would not have been ostricised, even if one or two people may have had reservations...This is a handy after thought/excuse.



and third time lucky....


> so they hid their head in the sand, until a problem became a huge problem that would require a huge investigation with potential accusations of racism. their failure to act earlier cannot be excused as a fear of a complicated investigation.
> 
> could the alternative not be that they couldn't give enough of a crap to investigate earlier and by the time it became clear there were a lot of complaints and a lot of girls involved, there was also considerable arse covering going on as to why they hadn't investigated earlier. culminating in claims they were too scared to bother all those brown people





oppps, this was supposed to be a reply to pillock


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Think about it...THEY had evidence, lots of it...they would not have been ostricised, even if one or two people may have had reservations...This is a handy after thought/excuse.



It may not reflect on the whole, but wasn't a foster mother laid off for taking up the case?


----------



## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)




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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Well, what is the alternative answer, then. It cannot be just incompetence.


You should never underestimate the incompetence of the police.


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## bmd (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> It's not fear of terms but fear of ostricism, peer pressure, knee jerk accustions of racism, which have been pointed out on the thread, can and do lead to dismissal at work. I have witnessed this myself when I was a militant in a left wing party.


 
It's a fucking side issue, a gift to the right wing. And some ex militants from the left wing. Why are you so focused on it?


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

or their ability to bullshit when caught being incompeten=t


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## Blagsta (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> I agree that is the real story. And they aren't just white people, either. But if some stories are to be believed there is a side order of Mafia-like behaviour in some quarters (and no, nobody holds Italians in general responsible for the Mafia.) How much credence should we give to issues such as the fact that the 2003 and 2006 reports 'set out the links between child sexual exploitation and drugs, guns and criminality in the Borough'?
> And this from the report:
> Or this:
> or this
> There is more, much more in the report. And there is much more online naming particular councillors with taxi interests who profess ignorance of any problem, if you dig around.



I know in Birmingham, there was an allegation a few years ago that a councillor who was prominent in the male prostitution council task group (which met with police and outreach/welfare/sexual health  organisations) was himself a punter.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> It's not fear of terms but fear of ostricism, peer pressure, knee jerk accustions of racism, which have been pointed out on the thread, can and do lead to dismissal at work. I have witnessed this myself when I was a militant in a left wing party.


So confronting a case where "at a conservative estimate" 1400 young girls and boys have been sexually exploited,  your primary point of empathy is not with the victims, not with the people who did attempt to get the matter properly dealt with but with those who now claim there was some justification for 'passing on the other side' ?


----------



## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You should never underestimate the incompetence of the police.



I would call doing nothing about numerous and direct reports of rape from the victims, something other than incompetence.


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## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> So confronting a case where "at a conservative estimate" 1400 young girls and boys have been sexually exploited,  your primary point of empathy is not with the victims, not with the people who did attempt to get the matter properly dealt with but with those who now claim there was some justification for 'passing on the other side' ?



absolute bollox. Wind your neck in and get coherent.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> I would call doing nothing about numerous and direct reports of rape from the victims, something other than incompetence.



So stop trying to pin this on some people saying they were scared of being called racist! You can clearly see a litany of reasons and ways people have fucked up, but you grab the most obvious attempt to cover their collective arse and give it value, seemingly above and beyond all else.  Bizarre.

ETA: Actually... Like so often happens when it comes to racism and my experience of it...it all makes sense...the double speak, the double bind...it's easier to believe _'those Black and brown people have tied this society up in knots, we give them everything and look how they repay us, we're even to scared to stop them commiting crimes'. _

Bollocks! Whiteness isn't invisible, the system is corrupt and cowards will resort to anything, even racism to cover their pathetic little arses.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> So stop trying to pin this on some people saying they were scared of being called racist! You can clearly see a litany of reasons and ways people have fucked up, but you grab the most obvious attempt to cover their collective arse and give it value, seemingly above and beyond all else.  Bizarre.



I see what you mean. Do you think that, at the end of the day, all those professionals who chose to work helping people, really just didn't give a fuck?

What coersion could they have felt?

Are we talking about collective cohersion or collective not giving a fuck here?


----------



## bmd (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> absolute bollox. Wind your neck in and get coherent.


 
You are determined that this should be seen as a major factor, why is that? Any idea? Try not to justify it with misquotes, "the thread says", or untruths about the report this tine.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> I see what you mean. Do you think that, at the end of the day, all those professionals who chose to work helping people, really just didn't give a fuck?
> 
> What coersion could they have felt. We are talking about collective cohersion or not give a fuckery here.



Both, who can say to what extent for each person? Burnout is a massive deal in SS, comminication between departments is known to be crap, lots of unsuitable people still on the job and with power, police corruption is widespread...the list goes on...


----------



## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> So stop trying to pin this on some people saying they were scared of being called racist! You can clearly see a litany of reasons and ways people have fucked up, but you grab the most obvious attempt to cover their collective arse and give it value, seemingly above and beyond all else.  Bizarre.
> 
> ETA: Actually... Like so often happens when it comes to racism and my experience of it...it all makes sense...the double speak, the double bind...it's easier to believe _'those Black and brown people have tied this society up in knots, we give them everything and look how they repay us, we're even to scared to stop them commiting crimes'. _
> 
> Bollocks! Whiteness isn't invisible, the system is corrupt and cowards will resort to anything, even racism to cover their pathetic little arses.



claims there is no credible alternative, whilst ignoring discussion of alternatives.


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## toggle (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> absolute bollox. Wind your neck in and get coherent.




there's no incoherency in that post. unless you intentionally choose not to understand it


take your own advice. sit down, shut up and listen. instead of wibbling on and accepting excuses for institutional failures at face value


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 30, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> the corruption angle was one  i wasnt aware of . But it maes sense now especially concerning the fear these scum instilled . That interview i spoke of earlier alluded to some of these chldren telling their parents if they didnt go with these men its the family whod suffer . Obvously a real fear of serious violence at play too .



A 2003 report concluded that:

_most of the men in South Yorkshire who were involved in the sexual exploitation of young people for the purposes of prostitution were also believed to be involved in drug dealing. They might also be involved in rape, violence, gun crime, robbery and other serious criminal offences;

Some of the young women who were being sexually exploited were subject to violence, rape, gang rape, kidnap, carrying drugs, dealing drugs, and found in situations where firearms were present;_


And in 2006:

_The situation in 2006 in Rotherham was described as continuing 'as it has done for a number of years', with an established sexual exploitation scene which was very organised and involved systematic physical and sexual violence against young women;

The most significant recent development had been a rise in reports of guns being seen rather than used by men involved in CSE in Rotherham and Sheffield; 

_
However, both of these reports followed a report written in 2002 that came out of research initiated by the Home Office on street prostitution. The researcher describes her concern about the police lack of action in pursuing the perpetrators despite monthly meetings with them:

_
She described a particular case that was 'the final straw'. 
In 2001, a young girl who 
had been repeatedly raped had tried to escape her perpetrators but was terrified
of reprisals. They had allegedly put all the windows in at the parental home and
broken both of her brother's legs 'to send a message'. At that point, the child agreed 
to 
make a complaint to the Police. The researcher took her to the police station office _

_where she would be interviewed in advance in order to familiarise her with the place
and the officer who would be conducting the interview. Whilst there, the girl received
a text from the main perpetrator. He had with him her 11-year old sister. He said
repeatedly to her 'your choice…'. The girl did not proceed with the complaint. She
disengaged from the pilot and project and is quoted by the researcher as saying 'you
can't protect me'. *This incident raised questions about how the perpetrator knew
where the young woman was and what she was doing. (my emphasis)
*
_
Briefly, the researcher was suspended for gross misconduct and there was a cover up of the report, funding withdrawn before the completion of the study.

Apologies about the weird formatting on the c&p - I don't know how to change it, I need to go and eat.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

Yeah, Red Cat, that bit struck me too. Although Anudder Oik has been getting stick for this, I think he's right in suggesting that there is more than incompetence at issue.


----------



## Anudder Oik (Aug 30, 2014)

bmd said:


> You are determined that this should be seen as a major factor, why is that? Any idea? Try not to justify it with misquotes, "the thread says", or untruths about the report this tine.



It's my initial perception and experience. I have seen political comrades (SWP a long time ago) collectively go to town on a woman from an NGO because she complained about being groped at a Morrocan celebration. I was in awe witnessing the openely disgusted rejection of this woman, who they labelled immediately as a racist. It was knee jerk a la extrem, So, I am somewhat influenced by seeing this behaviour in action. I have more stories like this, a massive row with another comrade occurred because I warned him to watch his wallet when a pickpocket I actually recognised came over to us in a crowded bar. The comrade even struck up a conversation with the guy to show how unracist he was. It makes you want to puke.I believe this kind of lack of common sense attitude is rampant among the left (of labour).

However, I am open to ideas thru argument, that's why I come here. I don't have a fixed idea although I will, at times push a point. 

Did it not say in the official report that there was fear....?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Yeah, Red Cat, that bit struck me too. Although Anudder Oik has been getting stick for this, I think he's right in suggesting that there is more than incompetence at issue.



He is not the only one suggesting there is more than incompetence at play in this.

What he is being challenged on is giving the fear of being branded a racist more value than others believe is truth in this case.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm not sure what to make of this. 

http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress....a-spider-at-the-centre-of-the-taxi-trade-web/


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> I'm not sure what to make of this.
> 
> http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress....a-spider-at-the-centre-of-the-taxi-trade-web/




Why don't you know what to make of it? Wil might be right? 

Taxi firm/drivers involved in gooming and abuse of young girls takes advantage of council contract. Councillors possibly involved/knew.. it's cetainly believable. What's your point?


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> I'm not sure what to make of this.
> 
> http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress....a-spider-at-the-centre-of-the-taxi-trade-web/


It sounds more plausible than fear of being called racist, tbh, as a major way in which this was covered up for so long - common or garden corruption.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> He is not the only one suggesting there is more than incompetence at play in this.
> 
> What he is being challenged on is giving the fear of being branded a racist more value than others believe is truth in this case.


Fair enough. It is a useful (and racist) excuse. It is laughable when the polis produce it. As if they are reluctant to stop and search someone walking down the road while black. But there is no denying that the likes of most of us will run screaming from the allegation, which is useful for perps trying to manipulate the system.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> I'm not sure what to make of this.
> 
> http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress....a-spider-at-the-centre-of-the-taxi-trade-web/


I find it quite believable, just wondered whether others on here knew more about it. There is a lot more hair-raising stuff on this site.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 30, 2014)

Is the rotherhampolitics blogger a UKIP supporter?

He seems quite pleased about UKIP taking this Akhtar bloke's council seat.

He also seemed quite keen to shut down discussion of UKIP in his comments section.

http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/the-leader-designate-jahangir-akhtar/

http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/?s=UKIP

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/23/local-elections-ukip-opposition-rotherham


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Is the rotherhampolitics blogger a UKIP supporter?
> 
> He seems quite pleased about UKIP taking this Akhtar bloke's council seat.


Well, I did wonder. There are several people blogging on that site, and little love lost for some of the Labour councillors, who tbh haven't exactly given a stellar performance. I suppose if they are UKIP anything they say is open to question. Are the questions they ask real questions deserving answers or simply racist aggravation? That's why I said I didn't know what to make of it.


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## likesfish (Aug 30, 2014)

Possibly the violent organised gang could lean on "community leaders" your going to claim everythings fine if your under threat of having your house burnt down with your family  in it 

Social services job isnt to deal with violent gangsters so the care workers and social workers have an excuse police no excuse one  of their jobs is to deal with violent gangsters


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

The man mentioned in that blog, Jahangir Akhtar, deputy leader of the council, was a taxi driver, and does have some previous.

This is the Guardian's report of his conviction for a brawl in the restaurant:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jun/19/politics.labour

The local paper's initial report makes for rather sinister reading, suggesting that Akhtar is a nasty piece of work:



> A man was acting drunkenly, swearing and threatening the chef in the restaurant just before closing time and so my son asked him to leave. The next thing my son knew was four men burst into the restaurant locking the doors behind them and started beating them up.”
> Mr Rasab alleged one of the attackers, who he believes is a kick-boxing teacher, was wearing knuckle-dusters, a weapon which is illegal in this country and is classed as an offensive weapon.
> 
> “My son-in-law was so badly beaten he is still recovering in hospital today,” he added. “There were customers in the restaurant and they tried to help my family but the men started kicking them too.”



http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...es/councillor-suspended-after-brawl-1-2413143

He escaped jail partly due to a glowing recommendation from the local police.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Social services job isnt to deal with violent gangsters so the care workers and social workers have an excuse police no excuse one  of their jobs is to deal with violent gangsters


It would appear likely that the deputy leader of the council, Mr J Akhtar, was both a taxi driver and a violent gangster. He certainly has acted like a gangster at least once in his life. It would also appear that he had the local police in his pocket.

If there is any truth in the 'community leaders urging inaction' stuff from earlier, might he have been it? Fits the bill rather well.

Nasty cunt, well-connected local politician, and involved in the taxi business. Hmmm.


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## likesfish (Aug 30, 2014)

So its now its a corrupt council which explain some things


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## andysays (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.



Somewhere on this thread (I too can't remember exactly where it came from) there was *an allegation* from un-named police that the reason they hadn't investigated was because un-named community leaders had said this. I'd be inclined to take it with a large pinch of salt...

There is also a seperate statement in the Report about how the Deputy Head of Rotherham Coucil was unwilling to label this a general problem within ther Pakistani community, for which he was criticised, but this is quite a different thing.

This is one of the problems of discussing this issue (lots of issues). We all read something, sub-conciously pick out or focus on the bits which confirm our suspicions, and then unknowingly distort them so that an allegation becomes hard evidence or whatever.

(this is not a criticism I'm aiming at you personally, or anyone else. I think we can all do it at times in different ways)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

likesfish said:


> So its now its a corrupt council


It appears that it may be. Corrupt council, corrupt and incompetent police force, and corrupt and/or incompetent social services. 

What a sorry mess. Poor girls.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 30, 2014)

likesfish said:


> So its now its a corrupt council which explain some things



Is there any other kind?


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## J Ed (Aug 30, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Is the rotherhampolitics blogger a UKIP supporter?



I don't think so, I haven't been able to 100% gauge the politics of the site but they just seem anti-establishment if anything... they seemed sympathetic to Respect in the past.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I don't think so, I haven't been able to 100% gauge the politics of the site but they just seem anti-establishment if anything... they seemed sympathetic to Respect in the past.



Yeah I can't tell either. They'll quote Respect, but you can't tell if they endorse what they quote. Then you find another post the seems pro UKIP.

Feels a bit shifty. 

I've been Googling busily based on leads from there and it's interesting to say the least.


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## J Ed (Aug 30, 2014)

You can find plenty that's critical of UKIP on that site, and actually some positive coverage of Sarah Champion. Very hard to pin any particular views on them really.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Yeah I can't tell either. They'll quote Respect, but you can't tell if they endorse what they quote. Then you find another post the seems pro UKIP.
> 
> Feels a bit shifty.
> 
> I've been Googling busily based on leads from there and it's interesting to say the least.


I get the impression they are a broad church. There are certainly (disillusioned) Labour supporters on the comments threads, eg here
http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/no-cover-up-here/


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

And tbh is it right to be looking at the messenger rather than the message?


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> And tbh is it right to be looking at the messenger rather than the message?


Need to do both at all times in my opinion, but especially in this case which is such a rats nest of different agendas.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> And tbh is it right to be looking at the messenger rather than the message?



IMO yes. There's a lot of propaganda and bullshit out there, so looking at the messenger is an essential part of thinking critically about evidence and assertion.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I've been Googling busily based on leads from there and it's interesting to say the least.


So have I. Mine appear to corroborate quite a bit of what the blog says. I can see why the blogger finds it not credible that Akhtar didn't know about the abuse.


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## J Ed (Aug 30, 2014)

I will be very interested to see how much media traction the much more plausible allegation of police and local political collusion get, it's a more complicated narrative to push than the liberal do-gooders enable Pakistanis/asylum seekers to rape kids angle...


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## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So have I. Mine appear to corroborate quite a bit of what the blog says. I can see why the blogger finds it not credible that Akhtar didn't know about the abuse.


Well aside from those who were organizing the abuse, there were also their clients, and they also seem to be  networked into wider criminal activity. Not sure how much can usefully be drawn from that. It occurs to me that another way to deflect attention from uncomfortable truths about institutional failings  would be to find some suitable scapegoats.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I will be very interested to see how much media traction the much more plausible allegation of police and local political collusion get, it's a more complicated narrative to push than the liberal do-gooders enable Pakistanis/asylum seekers to rape kids angle...


Earlier in this thread - I can't find it now or on twitter - was a tweet from Frances Crook which nailed it, something to the effect that it was impossible to avoid the idea that there had been collusion.
Good for her for calling it.

E2A this is the first time I've heard reference to asylum seekers. I don't think anyone was seriously suggesting that. Have you read the report?


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So have I. Mine appear to corroborate quite a bit of what the blog says. I can see why the blogger finds it not credible that Akhtar didn't know about the abuse.



Quite.


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## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

Well indeed but local politics, local business interests, the relation of both with the police, it all functions on the basis of collusion in the broadest sense. How do you distinguish 'good' collusion from 'bad' - they clearly can't.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Well aside from those who were organizing the abuse, there were also their clients, and they also seem to be  networked into wider criminal activity. Not sure how much can usefully be drawn from that. It occurs to me that another way to deflect attention from uncomfortable truths about institutional failings  would be to find some suitable scapegoats.


Others have asked for explanations as to how this could go on for so long undetected, implying that it must have been general knowledge among certain 'communities'. The answer is partly that the abusers were violent men who threatened people into silence, but it also appears that they may well have had friends in powerful places - friends who could get the girls charged with offences rather than them, friends high up in the local political network. And this man's name keeps cropping up. Not sure he's someone I'd be choosing to pin stuff on, given that he's clearly connected.


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## Ole (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It would appear likely that the deputy leader of the council, Mr J Akhtar, was both a taxi driver and a violent gangster. He certainly has acted like a gangster at least once in his life. It would also appear that he had the local police in his pocket.
> 
> If there is any truth in the 'community leaders urging inaction' stuff from earlier, might he have been it? Fits the bill rather well.
> 
> Nasty cunt, well-connected local politician, and involved in the taxi business. Hmmm.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 30, 2014)

Victims have said the same things as victims in other circumstances have before and continue to say - they took their case to the police, who told them basically to piss off, that it was their word against X and that they shouldn't bother taking it any further. They "lost" evidence that was submitted. There's no further explanation needed really.


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## Casually Red (Aug 30, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Somewhere on this thread there was info about community leaders warning the police not to focus on these gangs for the sake of community cohesion. (may have the wording wrong but something to that effect). In less generous circles this could be construed as a threat.



think youve a definite point there . These scum appear to have been organized and violent gangsters . The threat of violence at least would have been second nature to them..regardless of thekr actual ability to orchestrate it . And being wthout scruple theres little doubt they would have cynically portrayed ther response as a reaction to racist policing ..or at least threatened to..in order to protect their criminal empire . if due to corruption they had political voices behind them such a threat would carry more weight.
UVF pull this shit all the time when their financial interests are threatened and naturally enough get away with ruling entire communities through fear as a result .

With that type of MO in mind we need to bear in mind too if these scum were heavily  engaged in both gun and drug crime then quite a few of them would inescapably be police touts. Theres also a real possibility the spooks would have been keeping a keen eye on the Pakistani community in that part of Yorkshire for obvious reasons too and local crims are the first people they recruit as eyes and ears. All that needs to be kept in mind when we have the case of a victim getting a phone call while literally in the police station warning her not to make a statement . That sounds like a definite tip off from someone within law enforcement or the state . Whether by accident or design these people were effectively shielded from prosecution . For whatever reason .


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

There is a certain policeman's name which crops up again and again. I wonder why.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Victims have said the same things as victims in other circumstances have before and continue to say - they took their case to the police, who told them basically to piss off, that it was their word against X and that they shouldn't bother taking it any further. They "lost" evidence that was submitted. There's no further explanation needed really.


Oh I think there is a lot more explanation needed. Sometimes it's just police massaging their reported crime statistics (so that's all right then?) and sometimes it's someone making it worth their while for the complaint to go away. There is a difference between laziness and corruption.


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## hot air baboon (Aug 30, 2014)

…the leader of the Pakistani councillors absolutley should have done what any cute political operator like Mandelson would have immediately seen and turned a crisis into an opportunity….by apologising and totally disassociating  the Pakistani community from these scum bags – In fact they should have been hitting every tv studio in the country to do it – I mean how EXACTLY do you suppose this is issue is sitting with the general public at the moment……...instead they ended up being door-stepped like some dodgy double glazing saleman on the Roger Cook show….too late now but what a stark contrast that would have made to all the other slimy creeps brazenly refusing to take any responsibility like Shaun Wright refusing to resign….hell it doesn’t even matter if he believed what he was saying….

….because the police are racist this therefore makes it impossible for them to ever act in way to avoid accusations of racism ….…...because for some reason racists NEVER want to appear non-racist....a moment’s thought shows there is not the slightest bit of logic to that “argument”

....and your bubbling cauldron of conspiracy theory…..you’re going to have to find a way to crow-bar in the CPS to it aswell….:

( ….quote already posted once before but the message doesn’t seem to be landing… )

One of his first decisions on becoming a Chief Crown Prosecutor was to initiate prosecutions in the case of the Rochdale sex trafficking gang, overturning an earlier decision by the CPS. He said "white professionals' oversensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazir_Afzal

..also how may prosecutions have there been for FGM in Britain…..ever…?
..er…one….in May of this year….

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26681364

…I wonder what could possibly explain that reluctance …oh wait…presumably that was all down to corrupt taxi-drivers aswell…


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Sometimes there are conspiracies, hot air baboon. Casually Red mentions one place where such things exist - Northern Ireland. Paramilitaries on both sides ran all kinds of rackets and had all kinds of people in their pockets. These things do happen.


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## hot air baboon (Aug 30, 2014)

....OK....I admit its quite possible its part of the picture...

...maybe they all meet at the local Masonic Lodge thats SOP in local govt isn't it...?


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## Casually Red (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The man mentioned in that blog, Jahangir Akhtar, deputy leader of the council, was a taxi driver, and does have some previous.
> 
> This is the Guardian's report of his conviction for a brawl in the restaurant:
> 
> ...



so in that instance the state definitely shielded him from the effects of prosecution . While in other instances hes been appointed administrator of charitable funds..community funded posts ..received preferential licensing for his business . Either exceptionally lucky or someone up there likes hm .

this is precisely what goes on up the shankhill road...particularly the funded communty jobs . This stuff is pretty run of the mill in some quarters. And hes from a community were someone who could guarantee to keep extremists  ether under tabs or in line in his community would be looked on quite favourably and let do what he wants pretty much because thats the precise MO elsewhere.


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## J Ed (Aug 30, 2014)

Some of this stuff on Rotherhampolitics is just incredible

http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2014/08/27/akhtar-and-the-scene-of-the-crime/



> The case of Jessica was one of those Rotherham Child Sex Abuse cases reported by Andrew Norfolk in the Times. Jessica claims that when she was abducted from a Children’s Services foster home her abductor and sexual abuser was allowed to go free, un-prosecuted. She further alleged that his freedom resulted from a deal done by former Councillor Jahangir Akhtar to secure a non-prosecution deal in return for her release.
> 
> The perpetrator, Ash Hussain, was a close family friend of Akhtars, so close that once when in hospital he named Akhtars address as his home.
> 
> ...


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 30, 2014)

Oh hello.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> this is precisely what goes on up the shankhill road...particularly the funded communty jobs . This stuff is pretty run of the mill in some quarters. And hes from a community were someone who could guarantee to keep extremists  ether under tabs or in line in his community would be looked on quite favourably and let do what he wants pretty much because thats the precise MO elsewhere.


This is a very good point. This is his leverage.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is a very good point. This is his leverage.


(Allegation deleted)


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## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Others have asked for explanations as to how this could go on for so long undetected, implying that it must have been general knowledge among certain 'communities'. The answer is partly that the abusers were violent men who threatened people into silence, but it also appears that they may well have had friends in powerful places - friends who could get the girls charged with offences rather than them, friends high up in the local political network. And this man's name keeps cropping up. Not sure he's someone I'd be choosing to pin stuff on, given that he's clearly connected.


I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure I have any difficulty in envisaging circumstances in which a lot of bad stuff can happen without being 'visible'. There are plenty of 'blind corners' in public space, even if you aren't dealing - as was the case in Rotherham - with an inability to see and an inability to recognize, which then turned into a refusal to look or to look properly when the skeletons bony fingers started tapping on the closet door. But that's just speculation too.

The problem I have with the refrain that 'the community must have known' is that a lot of it seems to be based on dubious assumptions about what a close knit community is. I've lived in a unusually close knit community - the idea that because you know or are related to a lot of your neighbours you know everything about them, or that there aren't private spaces, private relations and lots and lots of secrets is just utter bollocks. Even a highly integrated community isn't some fucking panopticon. 

(Then there is the further problem that some of this suddenly acquired 'expertise' on the Pakistani heritage community in Rotherham is based on the same paranoid conspiraloon bollocks which gets directed to the secret networks of gays, freemasons, jews, etc. etc.)


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> In other words, a don.


aka 'local community leader' 

In a strange way, this is all part of Tony Blair's rich legacy.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure I have any difficulty in envisaging circumstances in which a lot of bad stuff can happen without being 'visible'. There are plenty of 'blind corners' in public space, even if you aren't dealing - as was the case in Rotherham - with an inability to see and an inability to recognize, which then turned into a refusal to look or to look properly when the skeletons bony fingers started tapping on the closet door. But that's just speculation too.
> 
> The problem I have with the refrain that 'the community must have known' is that a lot of it seems to be based on dubious assumptions about what a close knit community is. I've lived in a unusually close knit community - the idea that because you know or are related to a lot of your neighbours you know everything about them, or that there aren't private spaces, private relations and lots and lots of secrets is just utter bollocks. Even a highly integrated community isn't some fucking panopticon.
> 
> (Then there is the further problem that some of this suddenly acquired 'expertise' on the Pakistani heritage community in Rotherham is based on the same paranoid conspiraloon bollocks which gets directed to the secret networks of gays, freemasons, jews, etc. etc.)


I totally agree. The 'community must have known refrain' is exactly what I'm arguing against. No, those who found out were threatened, and further, the abusers had protection from powerful people, and further way too many people in authority simply didn't give a shit. That's the explanation. No doubt, they will have wanted as few people as possible to have known.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> <snippage>
> The problem I have with the refrain that 'the community must have known' is that a lot of it seems to be based on dubious assumptions about what a close knit community is. I've lived in a unusually close knit community - the idea that because you know or are related to a lot of your neighbours you know everything about them, or that there aren't private spaces, private relations and lots and lots of secrets is just utter bollocks. Even a highly integrated community isn't some fucking panopticon.
> 
> (Then there is the further problem that some of this suddenly acquired 'expertise' on the Pakistani heritage community in Rotherham is based on the same paranoid conspiraloon bollocks which gets directed to the secret networks of gays, freemasons, jews, etc. etc.)


I dunno. I really don't get where the idea of conspiraloon bollocks comes from. Have you read the report? I really recommend it, if your stomach is strong enough.

E2A And yeah, the community can't be held to blame for the crimes of an individual. Though this is worth bearing in mind:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir


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## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> I dunno. I really don't get where the idea of conspiraloon bollocks comes from. Have you read the report? I really recommend it, if your stomach is strong enough.


Yes I've read the Jay report, I read it the day it was published and  I was urging other people to do so many pages back in this thread. Where do I get the idea that people are approaching this with conspiraloon goggles on ? By reading a lot of the stuff that is being written about it.

ETA - with one obvious now banned example I'm not talking about here.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

So you think the idea of taxi gangs and police collusion is conspiraloon? How do you get that from the report?


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## Casually Red (Aug 30, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure I have any difficulty in envisaging circumstances in which a lot of bad stuff can happen without being 'visible'. There are plenty of 'blind corners' in public space, even if you aren't dealing - as was the case in Rotherham - with an inability to see and an inability to recognize, which then turned into a refusal to look or to look properly when the skeletons bony fingers started tapping on the closet door. But that's just speculation too.
> 
> The problem I have with the refrain that 'the community must have known' is that a lot of it seems to be based on dubious assumptions about what a close knit community is. I've lived in a unusually close knit community - the idea that because you know or are related to a lot of your neighbours you know everything about them, or that there aren't private spaces, private relations and lots and lots of secrets is just utter bollocks. Even a highly integrated community isn't some fucking panopticon.
> 
> (Then there is the further problem that some of this suddenly acquired 'expertise' on the Pakistani heritage community in Rotherham is based on the same paranoid conspiraloon bollocks which gets directed to the secret networks of gays, freemasons, jews, etc. etc.)



yeah but white people knew too..white cops..white social workers . And not least white families who sat in impotent fear as their daughters went off with these scum to protect them from reprisal . its not what the Pakistani community knew thats really an issue..its what everyone n Rotherham seemed to know as well . So to try and lay the blame at the Pakistani communty door is ridiculous simply on the basis everyone else knew too . Plenty of people were reporting them..nothing was done. Certanly doesnt appear to have been ther own community sheilding them. Someone else entirely.


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## Lurdan (Aug 30, 2014)

What on earth are you talking about ? As far as I am aware I was one of the first to draw attention to the section of the report about the role of taxi drivers and firms, and to insist that we were talking about networks of criminals and a criminal subculture. The conspiraloon aspect I was referring to above is the approach to the Pakistani heritage community which insists that it consists of a complicit conspiratorial community.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 30, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> What on earth are you talking about ? As far as I am aware I was one of the first to draw attention to the section of the report about the role of taxi drivers and firms, and to insist that we were talking about networks of criminals and a criminal subculture. The conspiraloon aspect I was referring to above is the approach to the Pakistani heritage community which insists that it consists of a complicit conspiratorial community.


Talking at crossed purposes here, I think. It's only the racist new members who've been saying this crap. We should do our best to ignore them (I know, I often fail in this).

ETA: I don't think it's conspiraloonery. I think it's just simple racism.

ETAA: Good posts by you on this thread, btw. Cheers.


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## bluescreen (Aug 30, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> What on earth are you talking about ? As far as I am aware I was one of the first to draw attention to the section of the report about the role of taxi drivers and firms, and to insist that we were talking about networks of criminals and a criminal subculture. The conspiraloon aspect I was referring to above is the approach to the Pakistani heritage community which insists that it consists of a complicit conspiratorial community.


Yeah, apologies! I find it hard to keep track of who said what.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

I plead guilty to probably not making myself clear for which apologies. But it is Saturday night. I guess I'm trying to say two things - the least interesting being the conspiraloon angle, because as littlebabyjesus said it's best to ignore it.

The other thing about the nature of close knit communities is relevant I think.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> I plead guilty to probably not making myself clear for which apologies. But it is Saturday night. I guess I'm trying to say two things - the least interesting being the conspiraloon angle, because as littlebabyjesus said it's best to ignore it.
> 
> The other thing about the nature of close knit communities is relevant I think.


It is. That story by *Ruzwana Bashir *is chilling. I believe her.


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 31, 2014)

poptyping said:


> Why do brown people have to be ashamed and sorry because of the actions of scum they don't even know just because they are they same skin colour? Srs question?


 
...you mean why should they be very publically & determinedly disassociating themselves from the "scum" as much as they can...?

..er....PR...?

...getting your message out to the public directly ?

..."brown people" have just been on the receiving end of about £200m quids worth of free press and tv publicity...none of it very good...


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...you mean why should they be very publically & determinedly disassociating themselves from the "scum" as much as they can...?
> 
> ..er....PR...?
> 
> ...



Your contributions here have been less than worthless, please do fuck off


----------



## Ole (Aug 31, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Nope, not joking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You disgust me, you cowardly shithouse. You can't even make a baseless accusation with any spine.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

So where are we on this thread?

The Economist came up with a good phrase yesterday - "ethnic misogyny"

Thoughts?

(and btw, this thread is of no consequence - a point that is worth underlining in light of "heated" exchanges)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> So where are we on this thread?
> 
> The Economist came up with a good phrase yesterday - "ethnic misogyny"
> 
> ...


Sounds like this thread has advanced way beyond yesterday's Economist.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

Another factor that is worth exploring, although I am not directly casting aspersions, is the procedure and provenance of the investigation and report itself.

Delving a bit deeper into Jay, although I may be incorrect here, it appears that she is simply a visiting professor who has never held the full title.

A bit odd.

Further, the report itself is largely unsubtantiated in relation to the severity of its accusations.


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 31, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> What on earth are you talking about ? As far as I am aware I was one of the first to draw attention to the section of the report about the role of taxi drivers and firms, and to insist that we were talking about networks of criminals and a criminal subculture. The conspiraloon aspect I was referring to above is the approach to the Pakistani heritage community which insists that it consists of a complicit conspiratorial community.



m largely agreeing with you..and making the point that whether their community reported it or not would have made no difference.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> m largely agreeing with you..and making the point that whether their community reported it or not would have made no difference.


Sorry that was a reply to bluescreen which I should have made clear.

ETA - memo to self : calibrate posting to alcohol intake


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 31, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Sorry that was a reply to bluescreen which I should have made clear.



no probs


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> m largely agreeing with you..and making the point that whether their community reported it or not would have made no difference.


A classic case of furious agreement on urban. You, Lurdan, me and a few others.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> ETA - memo to self : calibrate posting to alcohol intake


Yeah yeah. Will never happen.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah yeah. Will never happen.


True that.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> The Economist came up with a good phrase yesterday - "ethnic misogyny"



They can, fuck the fuck off...they are part of the fucking problem.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 31, 2014)

Global Stoner said:


> *Things have normally got to have gone quite mental for a kid to end up secure.* Plus fortunately for young people in care they have to do something pretty serious for the police to push for a conviction, rather the issuing them with a caution. (In my very limited experience anyway)



They've just got to run away a couple of times from other homes.


----------



## toggle (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Another factor that is worth exploring, although I am not directly casting aspersions, is the procedure and provenance of the investigation and report itself.
> 
> Delving a bit deeper into Jay, although I may be incorrect here, it appears that she is simply a visiting professor who has never held the full title.
> 
> ...




what do you think is the difference in qualification required to be a visiting professor and a full professor?


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

Ok, looking into the evidence base, it is clear that the report is not well done/effective.

Let me be clear, I do not doubt that this abuse may have occured, however the report when read closely is distinctly lacking in empirical support.

There is very little that would stand up in a court of law.  Perhaps there are good reasons for this?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> I do not doubt that this abuse may have occured, however the report when read closely is distinctly lacking in empirical support.



Wow! Just that.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Ok, looking into the evidence base, it is clear that the report is not well done/effective.
> 
> Let me be clear, I do not doubt that this abuse may have occured, however the report when read closely is distinctly lacking in empirical support.
> 
> There is very little that would stand up in a court of law.  Perhaps there are good reasons for this?


Yeah, it's all hearsay. It is such a relief to hear this. For a horrible moment I thought there was a scandal of child abuse.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

Have you read Appendix 2 - the methodology?

Maybe I am used to being a bit more thorough but, given that it is a major inquiry, I am staggered that they took a sample of 19 cases versus a total of 51 cases.  Those are not big numbers - get the data.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

Maybe a stats specialist can explain the methodology better but as a layman it seems a bit sloppy.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 31, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> <snip> by contrast, in the Rochdale and Rotheram cases the perpetrators were people who were in no way particularly powerful on a social level *yet were surrounded by a general culture which protected their activities.* there is not a single other cultural group in the UK where these grooming gangs crop up with such regularity or scale.



Obviously paedophilia/targeting vulnerable teenagers isn't unique to South Asian/Pakistani communities but the targeting of vulnerable girls from outside their communities who are regarded as white trash and used as pass-arounds by large groups of men who can count on each other to back each other up is a problem in the Pakistani community coz of a thing called baradari. This is the wiki definition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baradari_(brotherhood)
*



			Barādarī
		
Click to expand...

*


> or *Birādrī* (Urdu: برادری‎) means _Brotherhood_ originating from the Persian word برادر _Baradar_ meaning "Brother". In Pakistan and India it is used to denote a number of social strata among South Asian Muslims. According to author Anatol Lieven, "the most important force in [Pakistani] society" are Baradari, usually far stronger than any competing religious, ethnic, or ideological cause. Parties and political alliances in Pakistan are based on Baradari, not ideology.[1]



That's not a great explaination on the part of wiki, but baradari isn't easily translated. Essentially it means people from specific villages or areas in Pakistan remaining loyal to each other no matter what by virtue of nothing more than being from the same area. Soz if someone else has mentioned that, not read the full thread.

It has been going on for years though. I remember back in the mid 90's, this woman who used to put me up in Oldham, her fourteen year old daughter ran away with/was groomed (coz it was half consensual, they paid her attention which she wasn't averse to) by some older Asian lads, who then locked her in a flat and used her collectively. The coppers attitude at the time was dismissive to say the least - When they were in the womans house as she reported her daughter missing you could see the contempt dripping off them. They weren't even trying to hide it. One of them even said "They want young girls not old slags so she'll be home before you know it". Hopefully that's changed at least. I think I've told that before on the thread we had about Rochdale at the time anyway.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Have you read Appendix 2 - the methodology?
> 
> Maybe I am used to being a bit more thorough but, given that it is a major inquiry, I am staggered that they took a sample of 19 cases versus a total of 51 cases.  Those are not big numbers - get the data.



Did you actually read Chapter 4 of the report?


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond, this is just anecdotal evidence. First thing that came up when I googled Rotherham. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28983105


----------



## likesfish (Aug 31, 2014)

Get a violent bunch of scum who use baradari and threats to keep the locals in check corrupt council  and police who not that bothered as long as its only scum involved and crap social services = disaster hopefully the light shines on all these scumbags


----------



## purves grundy (Aug 31, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> It is. That story by *Ruzwana Bashir *is chilling. I believe her.


Yeah, bloody well is. But does it really require the preface of "Oxford-educated entrepreneur..."?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Aug 31, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> They've just got to run away a couple of times from other homes.



Or move them somewhere surrounded by miles of Moorland.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

purves grundy said:


> Yeah, bloody well is. But does it really require the preface of "Oxford-educated entrepreneur..."?


That itself is a manifestation of the differing treatments and assumptions that helped this stuff happen.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2014)

What part did the _baradari_ play in the police force actively under reporting and trying to disprove complaints then?



> In a further blow to the force, the HMIC report highlighted significant under recording of crimes sent to its specialist units by other agencies. “This level of under-recorded crime is a significant cause of concern and is a matter of material and urgent importance, particularly as some of these relate to violence and sexual assault against vulnerable children,” said the report.






> It said that the force’s public protection unit – which deals with hate crime, domestic abuse and sex crimes – _*spent a “great deal of time trying to disprove the word of the victim from the outset, rather than record the crime”*_.



Now why would they do that? 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...l-try-to-prove-victims-are-lying-9697859.html


----------



## hot air baboon (Aug 31, 2014)

….and reinforced by chain migration and cousin marriages instead of any cultural assimilation……..all happening under the umbrella of multi-culturalism ….there’s your “transmission belt” someone was talking about previously…..as Ann Cryer spoke out against and got the inevitable slagging and “racist” toilet seat hung round her neck for her trouble whilst “gurdian reading liberal-leftie” McShane was safely keeping shtum and fiddling his expenses…

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-marriage-in-case-they-lose-Muslim-votes.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2014)

So those police officers...whole departments that ignored and/or tried to disprove complaints made...they are also part of the Baradari?


----------



## likesfish (Aug 31, 2014)

No it was part of the problem much easyier to sweep under the carpet if you can use buzzwords lik
 Tight lipped community
Cultural issues, community cohesion etc etc etc.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> They can, fuck the fuck off...they are part of the fucking problem.



Wut?

How is the Economist part of the problem of Child Sexual Abuse in Rotherham?


----------



## andysays (Aug 31, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> So those police officers...whole departments that ignored and/or tried to disprove complaints made...they are also part of the Baradari?



The Police and other establishment institutions clearly have their own versions of "baradari", but apparently they're objectively more serious and nefarious when you can give them a sinister sounding foreign name...


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

For anyone digging any further here as a series of reports from the serious case review part of the Rotherham Safeguarding Children Board. Here are ones relating to Child S mentioned in the Jay report - she was Laura Wilson, murdered in rotherham in 2010 after being a victim of cse since the age of 10.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2014)




----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 31, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ...you mean why should they be very publically & determinedly disassociating themselves from the "scum" as much as they can...?
> 
> ..er....PR...?
> 
> ...




I really don't understand what this means.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 31, 2014)

The Indy also have a story suggesting that Blair's government were involved in keeping the lid on child-grooming cases in Rotherham and other places where this stuff was going on.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...blairs-government-knew--and-when-9701861.html


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> The Indy also have a story suggesting that Blair's government were involved in keeping the lid on child-grooming cases in Rotherham and other places where this stuff was going on.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...blairs-government-knew--and-when-9701861.html





> Former Foreign Office minister Denis MacShane said he was forced to agree to a "grovelling climb-down" over his remarks because he was warned it risked upsetting community relations.


No doubt it was because he was so upset about it that he had to try and get over it with some retail therapy.

I know it's irrational but the spectacle of every last cunt lining up to use this for political advantage or wank into the Union Jack just makes me want to hit things.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

It's appalling the way people are talking about Muslims or even just people of Pakistani heritage as if they were a monolith. Who are these community leaders anyway, what power do they exercise, who elected them, whom do they represent and how does their electorate get rid of them?


----------



## toggle (Aug 31, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> What part did the _baradari_ play in the police force actively under reporting and trying to disprove complaints then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what that article does highlight is that the refusal to record investigate sexual offenses is not something just found in that area, but appears to be a problem everywhere.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> The Indy also have a story suggesting that Blair's government were involved in keeping the lid on child-grooming cases in Rotherham and other places where this stuff was going on.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...blairs-government-knew--and-when-9701861.html



Seems like in a way these abused children were victims of Blair's wars


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> Seems like in a way these abused children were victims of Blair's wars



Seriously???

Bleddy hell, that's weak.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Seriously???
> 
> Bleddy hell, that's weak.


Necessary precondition for this to happen.

Working up from the bottom,

You have the men who carried out the abuse.
>
Above them are the local gangster-politicians (sorry, 'community leaders') who protected them.
>
Said local gangster-politicians gained leverage with the state by making themselves the link that could look out for potential terrorists.
>
The radicalisation of British Muslims has been driven on by the actions of the British government in starting wars in Muslim countries.


Work that list back up the other way, and the chain that enabled this to happen remains unconnected without Blair's wars.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Nah, this sort of model of community control has been going on since the scarman report into the 81 riots.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

toggle said:


> what do you think is the difference in qualification required to be a visiting professor and a full professor?



The point is that Jay doesn't appear to be "visiting" as a "professor" from anywhere in particular.

Therefore she has no security of tenure, which is ultimately a reflection on her capabilities, albeit in a traditional sense.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Necessary precondition for this to happen.
> 
> Working up from the bottom,
> 
> ...



That is a mightily tenuous argument that is wholly unsupported.

Tosh, in other words.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> That is a mightily tenuous argument that is wholly unsupported.
> 
> Tosh, in other words.


No, it's rather well supported.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Necessary precondition for this to happen.
> 
> Working up from the bottom,
> 
> ...



I don't even mean anything as elaborate as that, what I mean is that without the already inflamed 'community relations' as a result of Blair's wars there would be a lot less perceived need to tread softly on issues like this.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> The point is that Jay doesn't appear to be "visiting" as a "professor" from anywhere in particular.
> 
> Therefore she has no security of tenure, which is ultimately a reflection on her capabilities, albeit in a traditional sense.


Or, she was busy doing some proper directly relevant hands-on work. What a ridiculous post.

Have you rowed back from your embarrassingly crude, this is simply anti-white racism reading yet?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Nag, this sort of model of community control has been going on since the scarman report into the 81 riots.



The Bradford, Burnley, Oldham etc riots were Summer 2001, i.e. before WTC and Iraq.

The aftermath of the riots seems to have increased the co-dependency of Labour and 'community leaders' in South Asian areas. 

(can't recall source for latter point but will have a dig for it)


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I don't even mean anything as elaborate as that, what I mean is that without the already inflamed 'community relations' as a result of Blair's wars there would be a lot less perceived need to tread softly on issues like this.


did the sierra leone adventure lead to community relations issues?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> ... and the Bradford etc riots were Summer 2001


Sure, this started before Blair's wars. Blair's crackdown on civil liberties started before Blair's wars. The wars exacerbated everything, though.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Or, she was busy doing some proper directly relevant hands-on work. What a ridiculous post.
> 
> Have you rowed back from your embarrassingly crude, this is simply anti-white racism reading yet?



I know that you are a grievous offender on this front but might you, for once, stop caricaturing others' opinions?


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No, it's rather well supported.



Please provide that support.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> I know that you are a grievous offender on this front but might you, for once, stop caricaturing others' opinions?


This was your postition. It's not a caricature:




			
				Diamond said:
			
		

> In that manner, the abuse was an articulation of a type of racism that isn't very well recognised because it carries no particular legacy of slavery or colonialism - racism against white people.



...attempt to camouflage it in poncy writing all you like, but in essence and in articulation, this was the crude position that you adopted.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

They are going to wheel on Anne Cryer on WatO.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> I know that you are a grievous offender on this front but might you, for once, stop caricaturing others' opinions?


Why did you ignore the first part of that post - the bit that undermined you attempt to suggest that Jay is not competent to have headed this investigation? Bear in mind that unless you are a full professor i'm not going to take you or what you write seriously - even if you have many years direct experience in the field at all levels.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> They are going to wheel on Anne Cryer on WatO.


Wheel on is a bit dismissive - she was fighting against this in Keighley when many others were keeping their head/careers down.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

Yes, sorry about the tone there. But she did have a persistent angle on the race of the perps.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sure, this started before Blair's wars. Blair's crackdown on civil liberties started before Blair's wars. The wars exacerbated everything, though.



Sure, but I think that some of the causes of this situation become clearer if you look at the earlier period. 

Serious unemployment problems, with these 'community leaders' generally being a key source of jobs in the area. 

Racial tensions that precede all the islamic terror panic stuff of the post-911 world, with NF and BNP making a lot of noise. 

I wonder if those tensions weren't perhaps exacerbated by local outrage about child abuse/grooming that was already going on in the 90's in most of these places and evidently not being dealt with. 

Does anyone recall the latter coming up as a cause for 2001 riots?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Please provide that support.


Read the thread. Support for this idea of the structure of events is in this thread.

The only bit that's really in serious doubt is how different this would have been without the wars. I would judge that, at the very least, the wars made everything worse. But I accept that the roots of the problem predate them.


----------



## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

Tbh I'm very uneasy about the issue of race here. The notion of gangs who have a cultural affinity is where it stops, I hope.

E2A that was a response to butchers who complained, perceptively, that I was dismissive of Anne Cryer.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> This was your postition. It's not a caricature:
> 
> 
> 
> ...attempt to camouflage it in poncy writing all you like, but in essence and in articulation, this was the crude position that you adopted.



Your response to that accusation is to selectively quote what I have written?

Seriously?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Your response to that accusation is to selectively quote what I have written?
> 
> Seriously?


My response to is post your summary of what you think this abuse amounted to, yes. If you're going to deny that you argued this abuse was anti-white racism then go ahead.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Read the thread. Support for this idea of the structure of events is in this thread.
> 
> The only bit that's really in serious doubt is how different this would have been without the wars. I would judge that, at the very least, the wars made everything worse.



The problem with argument, which sometimes makes it a little tiresome, is that it is good manners to provide evidence for stuff that you advance, usually the more you advance the more evidence that one has to provide, so to put your rather bold argument and then refer essentially to "all that stuff that other people have said" as your evidence base tends to fatally wound the point that you are trying to make.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Tbh I'm very uneasy about the issue of race here. The notion of gangs who have a cultural affinity is where it stops, I hope.
> 
> E2A that was a response to butchers who complained, perceptively, that I was dismissive of Anne Cryer.


I think part of the thing with Cryer is that she came from outside of the sort of professional social service culture and didn't have the language and grasp of ways to _say things without saying them_ that they did so she tended to just talk openly about race - but without meaning race.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> The problem with argument, which sometimes makes it a little tiresome, is that it is good manners to provide evidence for stuff that you advance, usually the more you advance the more evidence that one has to provide, so to put your rather bold argument and then refer essentially to "all that stuff that other people have said" as your evidence base tends to fatally wound the point that you are trying to make.


Have you read the thread? I'm just not repeating myself, that's all.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Sure, but I think that some of the causes of this situation become clearer if you look at the earlier period.
> 
> Serious unemployment problems, with these 'community leaders' generally being a key source of jobs in the area.
> 
> ...


The accusations were certainly in the air at the time and well before.


----------



## Sue (Aug 31, 2014)

There appear to be parallels with what happened in Oxford re taxi drivers, late-night takeaways, drug dealing, very dubious 'community leaders' being cosied up to by political parties in return for delivering the 'community vote'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

toggle said:


> does anyone that dosen't have a pre existing anti-pc agenda( the "i'll call a spade a spade and a black person a ******* if i want to" twonks) actually believe that that the police are so obsessed with not looking racist that this was the only or even major reason for not investigating rapes, especially considering the long term, widespread failures that have been highlighted in their handling of rape cases, eg, mistreatment of victims, or recording reported rapes as 'no crime.
> 
> reporting their failures as due to a fear of accusation of racism is about absolving them of responsibility, 'the left' the 'pc brigade' etc can be blamed for this fucking abysmal failure (and for their reputation for being a bunch of racist arseholes), rather than having to take a good fucking look as to why they might be called racist and why they failed to do their jobs properly



Yep, it's pretty much a mask for institutional racism on the part of some agencies, although we shouldn't forget that this institutional racism that's being masked by claims of "political correctness" is only part of the issue.  Other parts are (not exhaustively):

1) The "chilling effect" of having to use so-called community leaders as a "mediating layer" in negotiations and enquiries about the sex offenders.
2) The large-scale structural changes in local authority social services provision and funding since the mid '80s causing an atmosphere of impermanence in many social services depts.
3) The unfamiliarity and obstinancy of police about their role in child protection - for the first half a decade after multi-agency coordination was made mandatory in (IIRC) 2002, both social services and the OB were more concerned about "turf" than about cases, in some depts.
4) Class and gender attitudes - Simplistically, the police were/are wont to look down on women and/or the working classes (especially since the "graduatisation" of policing), and social workers are historically more often drawn from the middle class.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 31, 2014)

Sue said:


> There appear to be parallels with what happened in Oxford re taxi drivers, late-night takeaways, drug dealing, very dubious 'community leaders' being cosied up to by political parties in return for delivering the 'community vote'.



I suspect that it's a bit more than getting the vote out. I get the idea that those dodgy community leaders are the focus for wider forms of political and even social control, particularly in the period following the 2001 Oldham, Bradford, Burnley etc riots.

For example, providing intelligence on unauthorised political activity within their 'manor', getting into all kinds of dodgy backscratching with the local cops etc.

See also: 





> Back in 2001, the London charity Southall Black Sisters, which has been campaigning against domestic violence since the 1970s, put me in touch with a social worker who had recently been transferred to Bradford. She told me how she had found herself the only woman at a post-riot “community relations” meeting where, she claimed, community leaders asked the police to pass any complaints of domestic violence from Pakistani women straight to them. They would “sort it” themselves. The worker said she challenged this, but felt that if she hadn’t been there the police would have agreed.


 http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-rotherham-abuse-scandal-pakistani-community


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I stand to be proven wrong, but the idea that in this country, the police and other authorities will look the other way and let you get away with more stuff if you're a member of an ethnic minority, well, that's not the police force I know.



It's not the OB I know, either. In fact I'd go as far as to say that such an idea flies in the face of the experiences not only of ethnic minorities in Britain, but of the working class as well (try living in a "white" area, and in the absence of racism as an outlet, coppers invariably use class as a determinant for whether to shit on you or not).


----------



## J Ed (Aug 31, 2014)

Can anyone with access to the Times behind the paywall paste the Janice Turner article?


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not the OB I know, either. In fact I'd go as far as to say that such an idea flies in the face of the experiences not only of ethnic minorities in Britain, but of the working class as well (try living in a "white" area, and in the absence of racism as an outlet, coppers invariably use class as a determinant for whether to shit on you or not).



I don't necessarily see it as implausible in the case of community 'leaders' who are in a position to do valuable favours for the cops, in effect by acting as agents of state control over the community in question while perhaps also facilitating a nice bit of graft.


----------



## Sue (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I suspect that it's a bit more than getting the vote out. I get the idea that those dodgy community leaders are the focus for wider forms of political and even social control. For example, providing intelligence on unauthorised political activity etc.
> 
> See also:  http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-rotherham-abuse-scandal-pakistani-community



Oh, I'd agree. There was also other stuff going on that seemed to suggest other gangsterism/corruption related to the council. Impossible to prove alas, given people were too scared to report things and who knows if anything would've actually happened if they had anyway.


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Have you read the thread? I'm just not repeating myself, that's all.



A surfeit of other demands preying upon your time presumably.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I suspect that it's a bit more than getting the vote out. I get the idea that those dodgy community leaders are the focus for wider forms of political and even social control, particularly in the period following the 2001 Oldham, Bradford, Burnley etc riots.
> 
> For example, providing intelligence on unauthorised political activity within their 'manor', getting into all kinds of dodgy backscratching with the local cops etc.
> 
> See also:  http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e-rotherham-abuse-scandal-pakistani-community


I think this bit is important:



> The victims weren’t only white girls, but the police and council focus on talking only to older male Muslims meant they weren’t aware of this. Women and girls living on their own were being targeted by Pakistani landlords and forced into sex with other men, afraid to report their abuse for fear of social stigma. The report found: “One of the local Pakistani women’s groups described how Pakistani-heritage girls were targeted by taxi drivers and on occasion by older men lying in wait outside school gates at dinner times and after school.”



In other words, their targets were vulnerable girls or women they thought they could control. Race wasn't the issue in choosing victims. Vulnerability was.


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## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I don't necessarily see it as implausible in the case of community 'leaders' who are in a position to do valuable favours for the cops, in effect by acting as agents of state control over the community in question while perhaps also facilitating a nice bit of graft.


A small piece from something larger i wrote a few years back - this in relation to the way that labour post-97 adapted the post-scarman model of community control/co-option - last para important:

Around the same time as Scarman reported, the left-inside-the labour-party had embarked on a program of opposition to the thatcherite neo-liberal agenda of widespread cuts to a range of national and local services and so on from within local councils around the country. As part of this program they adopted a strategy of opening up the councils to what they saw as community interests - that is ethnic communities, religious communities, national communities and so on - in short, different cultures (There is significant debate over just how far this was actually a conscious pre-planned strategy, but even if it was not planned in any formal way it still spoke very clearly of how this section of the left viewed society as mix of competing cultures at that point in time). These were externally identified and authenticated by a mutually beneficial process of the ‘leaders‘ demands for recognition and the councils willing/planned recognition of them . Further ‘cultures’ were invited to constitute themselves, and then to identify their own leadership representatives from with the community. The community leaders, now fully authorised to speak for the people and culture it had been decided they represented, were placed on a range of public bodies, were given a default position as consultative for any initiative that was planned within ‘their’ communities. Race relations boards, equal opportunities units, police liaison committees and so on were set up and these community leaders played a key role in their functioning.

This centrality helped reinforce their local power base which was then further consolidated when grants were handed out on the basis of community competition for funds. What then developed at that point was a form of clientelism in which community leaders received funds for their pet projects on behalf of their communities from the councils on the basis of the councils recognition of the authenticity of their culture, and then another layer of potential leaders received their funding from the existing leaders.

A reciprocal network of responsibilities to not act in ways that would be see as challenging the ‘communities’ stability - as defined by the council and leaders - was constructed, alongside a clear pathway into political influence for those prepared to ‘follow the rules’ was slowly developed. If you broke the rules your funding was cut, if the people you were supposed to represent got out of hand, your funding was cut.

Previously, _individuals_ from ethnic communities had been able to advance - against significant hurdles - through participation in existing institutions - the labour party and the unions for example, but they had to participate on the basis of the already existing culture and practice of those institutions - the end result was individuals moving upwards on the basis of acceptance of existing wider mainstream‘culture’ but now it appeared that there was room for upward mobility for people on the basis of their own ‘culture’, and the beneficiaries of this mobility were then able to portray their individual mobility as that of their collective ‘ethnic community’ or culture.

So there was a mutually reinforcing dynamic of community incorporation and community construction at the same time - where issues that had formerly been seen as cross community questions, as general social or political issues - class issues - slowly transformed themselves into cultural questions, as questions could only be dealt with by the officially recognised cultures, and more clearly, by their leaders. Political issues were racialised but under the guise of culture and equality. A politics developed out of common experience of school, work, leisure, family and area was derailed onto a territory of competing cultural experiences and expectations with the result that attacks that struck at the working class as whole - whether as wage-labour, as potential labour-power, as claimants etc faced a disunited opposition, and even had the door opened to them to offer enticements to one cultural community or another to participate in these attacks. The ground for class re-alignment, for actively recognising or constructing shared class interests was made that much less firm, whilst already existing cross-community networks were placed under severe pressure.

This generally remained a local level strategy but was adopted by ‘new labour’ on the national level (see the aufheben article on the construction of the Muslim community or recent work by Kenan Malik etc). Essentially a layer of mediators was constructed between the national/local state and the ‘communities’ who had the largesse to offer opportunities (or the appearance of opportunities) to members of that community. What formal politics that existed existed only through these mediators on the basis of their top-down legitimacy - rather than acting as bottom-up expressions of the local communities interests they developed as transmission belts in the opposite direction. (of course, it would be too simplistic to pretend that this is the whole picture - the state does actually have to maintain its ideological dominance through meeting genuine social needs, increasingly so as it encloses may previously collective non-state functions). Top-down official multi-culturalism according to Kenan Malik developed into a “top-down bureaucratic social management deployed in capitalist economies which import labour from abroad.”


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## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

Sue said:


> Oh, I'd agree. There was also other stuff going on that seemed to suggest other gangsterism/corruption related to the council. Impossible to prove alas, given people were too scared to report things and who knows if anything would've actually happened if they had anyway.





> 5.8 We read cases where a child was doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, children who were threatened with guns, children who witnessed brutally violent rapes and were threatened that they would be the next victim if they told anyone. Girls as young as 11 were raped by large numbers of male perpetrators, one after the other.
> “What’s the point… I might as well be dead.”
> 5.9 In two of the cases we read, fathers tracked down their daughters and tried to remove them from houses where they were being abused, only to be arrested themselves when police were called to the scene. In a small number of cases (which have already received media attention) the victims were arrested for offences such as breach of the peace or being drunk and disorderly, with no action taken against the perpetrators of rape and sexual assault against children.
> 5.10 There are numerous historic examples (up to the mid-2000s) of children being stalked by their abusers, and some extreme cases of violent threats or actual assaults on the victims and their families.
> ...


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## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think this bit is important:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, their targets were vulnerable girls or women they thought they could control. Race wasn't the issue in choosing victims. Vulnerability was.


I think in certain circumstances the vulnerability may have been seen as function of  - not necessarily  their race  - but of their distance from the perpetrators culture - these girls and boys were vulnerable because they (and maybe larger society) doesn't have the close knit family and male domination that we have and that others should have. They are outside the norms and so worthless.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Very interesting piece, butchers. That has clarified something for me - the exact meaning of 'multi-culturalism' as employed by New Labour. And it appears to describe the situation in Rotherham to a tee.


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## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Wheel on is a bit dismissive - she was fighting against this in Keighley when many others were keeping their head/careers down.


Indeed - which she and her husband did by promoting the idea that the root cause of the abuse was "cultural practises" "imported" from Pakistan. As opposed to being in any way linked to the fact the abuse is taking place a society in which people are encouraged to regard themselves, their creative activity, everyone they know and everything they come in contact with as a commercial opportunity to be exploited. A society presided over by a Labour government who's leading clique was "intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich" and which actively advanced the social divisions which created the available "labour pool" which the victims they are now so "shocked" about were drawn from. A Labour Party whose humbler members actively set an example by getting their snouts into the trough with as much alacrity as everyone else. (Including as it happens the Cryer dynasty - Ann Cryer and her MP son John both claimed expenses on the same flat, owned by other family members).

It would be ridiculous to suggest that these activities are in any sense equivalent. But it is just as ridiculous to look for causes in Pakistan, or in the consequences of Foreign Wars and at the same time pretend that the values these rapist pimps were expressing didn't also in some ways express the core values of the society they currently live in and aspire to get on in. Ann Cryer is very far from the worst but she was a part of the political class which set itself the task of drawing the lines not to be crossed and establishing the mechanisms for policing them. No doubt she 'meant well' but she was still part of their collective failure. Why should we be impressed that it's her getting an attendance fee for talking about this on television as opposed to someone with a less partial and frankly less reactionary viewpoint.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Anudder Oik said:


> Well, what is the alternative answer, then. It cannot be just incompetence.



Maybe the answer is a bit more complex than you're assuming, and what happened isn't due to any one over-riding factor, but to a confluence of smaller, more insidious factors.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You should never underestimate the incompetence of the police.



Or their malice.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

bmd said:


> It's a fucking side issue, a gift to the right wing. And some ex militants from the left wing. Why are you so focused on it?



To be fair, Bob, sometimes people actively desire a simplistic set of reasons, because it means not having to look too hard beyond the given reasons, when doing so might cause cognitive dissonance for them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> So stop trying to pin this on some people saying they were scared of being called racist! You can clearly see a litany of reasons and ways people have fucked up, but you grab the most obvious attempt to cover their collective arse and give it value, seemingly above and beyond all else.  Bizarre.
> 
> ETA: Actually... Like so often happens when it comes to racism and my experience of it...it all makes sense...the double speak, the double bind...it's easier to believe _'those Black and brown people have tied this society up in knots, we give them everything and look how they repay us, we're even to scared to stop them commiting crimes'. _
> 
> Bollocks! Whiteness isn't invisible, the system is corrupt and cowards will resort to anything, even racism to cover their pathetic little arses.



"Even racism"?
In my experience, racism is the *default* setting in many institutional environments, closely followed by buck-passing as far down the heirarchy as is possible.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> But it is just as ridiculous to look for causes in Pakistan, or in the consequences of Foreign Wars and at the same time pretend that the values these rapist pimps were expressing didn't also in some ways express the core values of the society they currently live in and aspire to get on in.


There are precious few shared 'core values', aren't there? I'd make a comparison with the men who murdered Stephen Lawrence. These were racist people who existed within a culture where being racist was the norm. Their actions don't express any core value, though, either of wider society or of any putative 'white community' in Eltham. It was a racist subculture within a group within an area. Is it not best to consider these rapists as part of a rapist subculture within a group within an area?


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Even racism"?
> In my experience, racism is the *default* setting in many institutional environments, closely followed by buck-passing as far down the heirarchy as is possible.


And of course 'blame the victim'.


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## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are precious few shared 'core values', aren't there? I'd make a comparison with the men who murdered Stephen Lawrence. These were racist people who existed within a culture where being racist was the norm. Their actions don't express any core value, though, either of wider society or of any putative 'white community' in Eltham. It was a racist subculture within a group within an area. Is it not best to consider these rapists as part of a rapist subculture within a group within an area?


My point in part was that they weren't just rapists - this wasn't just the consequences of leisure activity outside work. I don't know the timeline but things clearly developed into a business supplying services to others in the context of other illegal and legal business activities. As a set of business practises what they did is far from different to a lot of what is done 'legally' by legitimate business. Seduction, exploitation, taking advantage of the weakness of vulnerable people, ruthlessly enforcing control over the people making money for them. More careful "due diligence", better networking into the business community and they would have got away with it for much longer and been able to go 'legitimate' like many criminals before them.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> My point in part was that they weren't just rapists - this wasn't just the consequences of leisure activity outside work. I don't know the timeline but things clearly developed into a business supplying services to others in the context of other illegal and legal business activities. As a set of business practises what they did is far from different to a lot of what is done 'legally' by legitimate business. Seduction, exploitation, taking advantage of the weakness of vulnerable people, ruthlessly enforcing control over the people making money for them. More careful "due diligence", better networking into the business community and they would have got away with it for much longer and been able to go 'legitimate' like many criminals before them.


ah ok. Got you.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Both, who can say to what extent for each person? Burnout is a massive deal in SS, comminication between departments is known to be crap, lots of unsuitable people still on the job and with power...



I think you need to interrogate those claims a bit more closely - not because they're necessarily crap, but because if you *do* interrogate them, they give insight into the _milieu_ within which such things can happen.

Why is burn-out such a massive deal in Social Services depts? Chronic understaffing; chronic use of agency staff, with all the effects that has on the continuity of care; ever-expanding client base; ever-changing legislative remit; stigmatisation of the profession.
Plus all the effects the above have emotionally on each individual staff member.

Why are communications between depts "known to be crap"?  Because lax communications standards provide "get out of jail free" cards to the managerialist fucks at the top of the management chain; because most LA social services depts are still trapped in administrative systems that are part modern ICT, and part paper-driven, with all the opportunities for cock-up that that implies; because most SS depts don't have a unitary integrated communications system beyond the landlines in the dept headquarters, and the private phone numbers of staff members.

Why are "lots of unsuitable people" still "on the job and with power"? Because at a certain level, it's as much about who you know that keeps you in-post, as about how well you do your job; because sometimes it's seen as appropriate by senior executives to retain "useful idiots" in post; because all too often, the supply of mid-ranking and above staff experienced in the various fields of social work is so thin that you'd have to be an axe murderer not to be hired and retained.

We don't need to construct any theories beyond the sad realities listed above, IMO, except to take into account the fact that a minority of people are 9-5ers who simply can't be arsed about their clientele beyond those hours




> police corruption is widespread...the list goes on...



Corruption, incompetence and malice are all signatures of police work.


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## Casually Red (Aug 31, 2014)

J Ed said:


> I don't even mean anything as elaborate as that, what I mean is that without the already inflamed 'community relations' as a result of Blair's wars there would be a lot less perceived need to tread softly on issues like this.



reading some of these accounts of the victims...being threatened while literally in a police station ..parents following a taxi and phoning 999 to report an abduction of a young girl with the cops just ignoring them even when it was pointed out to them....head honcho being allowed walk after smashing up a restaurant and hospitalising its employees thanks to personal intervention of top cop ..parents being arrested and charged for attempting to rescue their kids from gang rapes and no action taken against the kidnappers..

with the perpetrators known serious and armed crims of an ethnic minority origin . The very people youd think the cops would love the opportunity to fuck about. And on such a massive scale. Personally i think a lot of this goes beyond treading softly . Thats more in the realms of protection and collusion . And thanks to Blair its against a political backdrop were such collusion would be deemed a requirement. And alongsde such colluson..a status of criminal untouchables which ultimately means localised power influence and wealth .. corruption graft and grubby political deals naturally follow in its wake.

Bottom line even if a cops a racist misogynist scumbag at the end of the day arresting criminals is good for his career . These are very serious crimes. This strikes me as a situation were someones made it plain to the cops arresting these people wont be good for their career . Theres a pattern here thats depressingly familiar to me at least.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Even racism"?
> In my experience, racism is the *default* setting in many institutional environments, closely followed by buck-passing as far down the heirarchy as is possible.



My point was about some of those who claim not to be and IME on the whole are not, will and do resort to it if it means saving their own skin.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think you need to interrogate those claims a bit more closely - not because they're necessarily crap, but because if you *do* interrogate them, they give insight into the _milieu_ within which such things can happen.
> 
> Why is burn-out such a massive deal in Social Services depts? Chronic understaffing; chronic use of agency staff, with all the effects that has on the continuity of care; ever-expanding client base; ever-changing legislative remit; stigmatisation of the profession.
> Plus all the effects the above have emotionally on each individual staff member.
> ...




I don't think I personally need to interrogate them, I know all of this you have posted above...I was giving a few bullet points. Thanks for taking the time to provide detail though, I dare say those who don't know these things will learn something from them.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Casually Red said:


> reading some of these accounts of the victims...being threatened while literally in a police station ..parents following a taxi and phoning 999 to report an abduction of a young girl with the cops just ignoring them even when it was pointed out to them....head honcho being allowed walk after smashing up a restaurant and hospitalising its employees thanks to personal intervention of top cop ..parents being arrested and charged for attempting to rescue their kids from gang rapes and no action taken against the kidnappers..
> 
> with the perpetrators known serious and armed crims of an ethnic minority origin . The very people youd think the cops would love the opportunity to fuck about. And on such a massive scale. Personally i think a lot of this goes beyond treading softly . Thats more in the realms of protection and collusion . And thanks to Blair its against a political backdrop were such collusion would be deemed a requirement. And alongsde such colluson..a status of criminal untouchables which ultimately means localised power influence and wealth .. corruption graft and grubby political deals naturally follow in its wake.
> 
> Bottom line even if a cops a racist misogynist scumbag at the end of the day arresting criminals is good for his career . These are very serious crimes. This strikes me as a situation were someones made it plain to the cops arresting these people wont be good for their career . Theres a pattern here thats depressingly familiar to me at least.


Yes, that makes sense. Would it be fair to say, perhaps, that the systems of local ethnicity-based patronage described very well by butchersapron were already in place before the 'war on terror' kicked up into top gear, but that the intensification of the desire of the state to identify and keep an eye on extremists gave that local power base increased leverage with the state?

(Worth remembering that Blair was ratcheting up that 'war on terror' before 9-11, Afghanistan or Iraq 2, his first terrorism act curtailing civil rights dating from 2000.)


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## bluescreen (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, that makes sense. Would it be fair to say, perhaps, that the systems of local ethnicity-based patronage described very well by butchersapron were already in place before the 'war on terror' kicked up into top gear, but that the intensification of the desire of the state to identify and keep an eye on extremists gave that local power base increased leverage with the state?
> 
> (Worth remembering that Blair was ratcheting up that 'war on terror' before 9-11, Afghanistan or Iraq 2, his first terrorism act curtailing civil rights dating from 2000.)


Nah, I can't see the local fuzz doing the state's work for its own sake. Maybe some other more immediate satisfaction for a job well done?

E2A though that may have been the story they told themselves.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

andysays said:


> Somewhere on this thread (I too can't remember exactly where it came from) there was *an allegation* from un-named police that the reason they hadn't investigated was because un-named community leaders had said this. I'd be inclined to take it with a large pinch of salt...



That pinch of salt, yesterday.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Well indeed but local politics, local business interests, the relation of both with the police, it all functions on the basis of collusion in the broadest sense. How do you distinguish 'good' collusion from 'bad' - they clearly can't.



Good collusion would effect socially-beneficial change, so if collusion doesn't effect socially-beneficial change...


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## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Good collusion would effect socially-beneficial change, so if collusion doesn't effect socially-beneficial change...


Do we get a say in how socially-beneficial is defined ? hmm thought not...


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

hot air baboon said:


> ....OK....I admit its quite possible its part of the picture...
> 
> ...maybe they all meet at the local Masonic Lodge thats SOP in local govt isn't it...?



I have the 1970s on the phone. They want to know when you're coming back.


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## Casually Red (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, that makes sense. Would it be fair to say, perhaps, that the systems of local ethnicity-based patronage described very well by butchersapron were already in place before the 'war on terror' kicked up into top gear, but that the intensification of the desire of the state to identify and keep an eye on extremists gave that local power base increased leverage with the state?



if the state perceived a big enough potential threat from political currents within that community then my belief is anythings possible . Literally anything . if those communities began to be perceived as some sort of front line as regards Defence of the Realm then DOTR takes precedence over everything . if the state perceived a real threat of a bombing campaign aimed at central london for example coming out of Asian heritage communities then those communities through no fault of their own would become a definite front line in certain quarters. 

For example the UDA and UVF were essentially networks of local criminal gangs from the outset incorporated by the state. Within their communities they already had a certain existent hierarchy...many of them were also cops and orange leaders. Essentially a pre existing ethnc hierarchy that delivered votes jobs and muscle . Then ramped up as necessity dictated .They remain heavily engaged in crime ..often identical to a lot of this..on an industrial scale. With their leaderships afforded lucrative government grants ..unelected _communty leadership_ roles..etc. its depressingly familiar.

im trying to keep in mind here theres countless victims of some absolutely horrific stuff and dont want to be using their tragedy as a means to vent my hatred of certain agencies. But its the sheer scale of this thing alongside repeated opportunities to take action..alongside very apparent immunity from prosecution for certain people that went very high up . And parents not just ignored but some even charged with criminal offences when they ..lets face it..crossed these people. Not just interrupting their criminal abductions but putting plod in a sticy situation by reporting it..making enemies of the police by reporting crime . Parents charged with crime for reporting serious crime..victims threatened while in a police station for reporting crime..for creating a situation were the cops might have to tae action against certain people..ive definitely seen that pattern before and to me it absolutely stinks.

And then when it comes out its all immediately explained away by a mass media furore that it was all down to political correctness gone mad. Absolute bollocks. Thats deflection..cover up .


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> So where are we on this thread?
> 
> The Economist came up with a good phrase yesterday - "ethnic misogyny"
> 
> Thoughts?



Besides "Hmm, I see that Diamond is still reading _The Economist_. I wonder if he still thinks he's some sort of anarcho-capitalist?"?
I'd say that whoever coined the term "ethnic misogyny" doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Ethnic misogyny implies an ingrained social response across an ethnic culture.  This would mean, in terms of Rotherham, that *all* British Pakistani men in Rotherham could be expected to manifest a thoroughgoing hatred of any and all women.  That doesn't happen.



> (and btw, this thread is of no consequence - a point that is worth underlining in light of "heated" exchanges)



Posters are well aware of the lack of consequence of such threads. Nice of you to remind us, though, even if it was only to boost your own ego by doing so.


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## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Here's piece that he took that ethnic-mysoginy from:



> In Rotherham, this ethnic misogyny then ran up against the institutional misogyny of the police and the mostly white council. Ms Jay writes of one female employee at the council being told that if she wore shorter skirts to meetings “she’d get on better” and other senior male officials making explicit sexual remarks to female workers. Some senior police officers clearly saw the abused girls simply as sexually precocious young women



Note institutional misogyny (white) vs ethnic misogyny (asian). Murky waters even for someone like diamond.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> Wut?
> 
> How is the Economist part of the problem of Child Sexual Abuse in Rotherham?



Their proferring of Establishment "logic" to supposedly explain a complex set of social and structural failings via "ethnic misogyny", perhaps?


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Very murky waters. I see that the article mentions in parentheses that Pakistani girls had also been abused, but brazenly ignores this in its claim that the men saw white women as fair game. 

It's almost like fuckwit bingo: pornography and rap music both get a name check. 

Lazy, even by The Economist's standards.


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## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Very murky waters. I see that the article mentions in parentheses that Pakistani girls had also been abused, but brazenly ignores this in its claim that the men saw white women as fair game.
> 
> It's almost like fuckwit bingo: pornography and rap music both get a name check.
> 
> Lazy, even by The Economist's standards.


Note also,_ it blames rap music. _


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Here's piece that he took that ethnic-mysoginy from:



It's crap. Even the strap is wishful thinking. It's not a "distinctively British" phenomenon at all Less than 10 years ago a similar furore (with similar accusations of political correctness and cultural misogyny being bandied) occurred in Paris with regard to a supposed rape culture in the North African-dominated _Banluies_ (sp) that had supposedly been going on since the '60s.




> Note institutional misogyny (white) vs ethnic misogyny (asian). Murky waters even for someone like diamond.



I don't think he ever takes off his blinkers for long enough to even see that the water is murky.


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## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> diamond said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know just what motivated that latest _you're all cunts and i'm better than you _thing from diamond, but it is of consequence if imagined as part of a wider social debate - to me, if not the state's immediate actions. It is of consequence to potential on-the-ground developments in the area i live in. I know Diamond thinks he's above everything and everyone though (because he's passed some law exams i gather) which is why he doesn't think any of this matters. It's just an opp to be pompous - make crude evidenced claims and write like he's reading the bumper book of peregrine worsthorne for style tips. There's a discussion going on diamond, any chance you could try and take part without spitting on the people involved?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I really don't understand what this means.



It means that hot air baboon is a fuck-knuckle who needs a good shoeing for trying to make racist capital out of this whole sorry mess.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 31, 2014)

Despite the determined attempts to derail, I think this thread has got somewhere important. Thanks everyone. I have learned a lot from it.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> It's appalling the way people are talking about Muslims or even just people of Pakistani heritage as if they were a monolith.



I've attempted to make the poin that that neither Pakistanis or Muslims in general are homogeneous, but many people don't want to listen, because to do so would contradict their simplistic internalised beliefs.



> Who are these community leaders anyway, what power do they exercise, who elected them, whom do they represent and how does their electorate get rid of them?



I can only speak for what I know in SW London, but most of them are unelected, and while not exactly "self-appointed", are the personality type to always put themselves forward if there's a chance of a sniff of power and/or influence without responsibility, especially if there's a void to be filled. I saw this as a school governor, and as a political activist. While some do indeed represent the *normative* views of their community, they don't often represent the more nuanced views of individuals in the community, and will indeed use their "status" to suppress such views.
IMO the problem doesn't actually reside in their existence so much as in there being no established checks and balances to the power so-called "community leaders" from any community can garner and exercise.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

toggle said:


> what that article does highlight is that the refusal to record investigate sexual offenses is not something just found in that area, but appears to be a problem everywhere.



An attitude that has always been prevalent, and which is reinforced by the managerialism rampant within the PoliceServices.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Besides "Hmm, I see that Diamond is still reading _The Economist_. I wonder if he still thinks he's some sort of anarcho-capitalist?"?
> I'd say that whoever coined the term "ethnic misogyny" doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. Ethnic misogyny implies an ingrained social response across an ethnic culture.  This would mean, in terms of Rotherham, that *all* British Pakistani men in Rotherham could be expected to manifest a thoroughgoing hatred of any and all women.  That doesn't happen.


Being curious (and a little bored) I looked for this article
http://www.economist.com/news/brita...ld-sex-abuse-scandal-see-no-evil-hear-no-evil

The relevant bit is


> What the report does not spell out, but which is true, is that the horrors in Rotherham fit into a pattern. In other northern towns such as Oldham and Rochdale, as well as in southern cities such as Oxford, gangs of Asian men have been convicted of grooming and abusing young, mostly white girls. This is a specific ethnic issue more than a religious one, says a community worker in a city near Rotherham. Young Pakistani men are increasingly alienated from their conservative parents, who want them to marry girls from back home (often the Mirpur district in Kashmir) and also from religious leaders, who often cannot speak English. Discussions of sex are taboo at home and in the mosque, so some learn about it from pornography, about misogyny from rap music and come to view white women as fair game (though the report also suggests Pakistani girls were abused, and that this was hushed up).





> In Rotherham, this ethnic misogyny then ran up against the institutional misogyny of the police and the mostly white council. (...)



This is a slightly more sophisticated (and arguably more offensive) line of bullshit than some others but it is still discussing this as if it was all just a recreational activity rather than a commercial venture. (Something you'd have thought The Economist might be alert to). And it still begs the question as to what this magic ethnic glue is which transforms tensions and 'second-generation' issues which exist in many communities into organized commercial sexual exploitation. Is it because members of the Pakistani heritage community are so 'simple' or 'backward' that they are incapable of resisting the blandishments of pornography and rap music ? Is the 'sexual repression' especially sooper-repressive repression so that their 'primitive instincts', so much 'closer to nature', cannot contain their drives ? 

Fuck off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> The problem with argument, which sometimes makes it a little tiresome, is that it is good manners to provide evidence for stuff that you advance, usually the more you advance the more evidence that one has to provide, so to put your rather bold argument and then refer essentially to "all that stuff that other people have said" as your evidence base tends to fatally wound the point that you are trying to make.



The usual etiquette on here is that one is expected to read the thread before jumping in.  Doing so would have familiarised you with what lbj was talking about but, as usual, you've just dropped your metaphorical trousers and shat on the thread at the point at which you encountered it.  Well done.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I don't necessarily see it as implausible in the case of community 'leaders' who are in a position to do valuable favours for the cops, in effect by acting as agents of state control over the community in question while perhaps also facilitating a nice bit of graft.



Now now Bernie, it's not "graft", it's a legitimate perk of public service work.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

Diamond said:


> A surfeit of other demands preying upon your time presumably.



It's probably more that he thinks you're a cunt.  That is *usually* the reason, isn't it?


----------



## Diamond (Aug 31, 2014)

God rest ye merry gentlemen.

You are, I fear, rather confused.

I am otherwise engaged at present but will return in due course to help explain things in a fashion more amenable to your facilities.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

Don't bother. This sort of thing isn't needed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I don't know just what motivated that latest _you're all cunts and i'm better than you _thing from diamond, but it is of consequence if imagined as part of a wider social debate - to me, if not the state's immediate actions. It is of consequence to potential on-the-ground developments in the area i live in.



Quite.  This ties in with the lived experience of many of us who live and were reared in multicultural environments - not necessarily the sexual abuse element or the supposed centrality of British Pakistani males, but the interface between communities, community leaders and officialdom, whether than be the police or local authorities, and how that interface is (ab)used.



> I know Diamond thinks he's above everything and everyone though (because he's passed some law exams i gather) which is why he doesn't think any of this matters.



Gosh, he's passed some exams!
I suppose that makes him far more learned than any other poster!



> It's just an opp to be pompous - make crude evidenced claims and write like he's reading the bumper book of peregrine worsthorne for style tips.



Windbaggery is notorious as a cover for being an eejit.



> There's a discussion going on diamond, any chance you could try and take part without spitting on the people involved?



But that would be *so* draining, and *so* unfulfilling.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Aug 31, 2014)

So does anyone have more info on the "Risky Business raid" alleged by the Times?



> Rotherham’s current chief executive Martin Kimber today said he could find no evidence of an alleged raid by council staff on one of their own offices to remove evidence of the extent of the town’s sex abuse crisis.
> 
> The Times reported that the offices of Risky Business, a youth project that worked with vulnerable young people, was targeted in 2002. It alleged that the only material and files removed were those used by Dr Heal to produce draft chapters of her report, which had been passed to officials in the town,
> 
> ...


 http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ief-faces-probe-on-grooming-scandal-1-6812171

Risky Business were some sort of youth outreach programme mentioned in the Jay report as about the only organisation who were credible to the girls who were being abused, about the only one taking the cases seriously and apparently the source for a lot of the stuff in Dr Heal's report.

The Times seems to be the source for claims that they were raided and had files taken, but the detail seems awfully sketchy. Anyone know more about this aspect?


----------



## phildwyer (Aug 31, 2014)

In the 50s and 60s it was the Jamaicans who were supposedly raping our women all over the place.  This was the allegation that started the 1958 Notting Hill riots in fact.  Twas racist nonsense then and tis racist nonsense now.


----------



## 1%er (Aug 31, 2014)

A House of Commons committee is to investigate whether Tony Blair's government knew about the Rotherham child abuse scandal, as far back as 2001.

The _Independent on Sunday_ reported an inquiry will happen after it emerged a researcher at the Home Office was conducting an investigation in 2002 into trafficking and underage prostitution by Muslim gangs in Rotherham.

But her work was shelved by the Labour-run council when she attempted to blow the whistle.

more here


----------



## Red Cat (Aug 31, 2014)

It hasn't 'emerged', it was stated very clearly in the Jay Report.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> So does anyone have more info on the "Risky Business raid" alleged by the Times?
> 
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ief-faces-probe-on-grooming-scandal-1-6812171
> 
> ...


A number of newspapers picked up the story from the Times piece. As usual the most shameless cribbing is in the Mail but I'm not sure it adds much
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...al-claims-officials-wiped-computer-files.html


----------



## 1%er (Aug 31, 2014)

Red Cat said:


> It hasn't 'emerged', it was stated very clearly in the Jay Report.


Send a letter to Samantha Payne


----------



## Casually Red (Aug 31, 2014)

1%er said:


> A House of Commons committee is to investigate whether Tony Blair's government knew about the Rotherham child abuse scandal, as far back as 2001.
> 
> The _Independent on Sunday_ reported an inquiry will happen after it emerged a researcher at the Home Office was conducting an investigation in 2002 into trafficking and underage prostitution by Muslim gangs in Rotherham.
> 
> ...



_The researcher's investigation came at the time the former Labour government wanted to pacify relations with the Muslim communities following the race riots of 2001.


Tensions within the cabinet were also boiling over when former foreign office minister Denis MacShane was nearly sacked by his boss, foreign secretary, Jack Straw, *after calling on Muslims in the UK to choose between the "British way or the way of the terrorists"*.


MacShane made the extreme comments after a 24 year-old from South Yorkshire tried to bomb Israelis in a bar in Tel Aviv in 2003._

__


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 31, 2014)

Think piece in the Independant
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...we-need-solutions-not-scapegoats-9701623.html




> Sadly, journalists have not had in their sights the gangs of men who physically raped and mentally tortured their children as young as 11. Rather, the tabloid hue and cry has been in pursuit of a much easier quarry – the bureaucrats and functionaries whose inaction, incompetence and prejudices permitted these chilling abusers to flourish unchecked.


(...)


> The Jay report bemoans an overall macho and bullying sexist culture in South Yorkshire – "not an appropriate climate in which to discuss rape and sexual exploitation" – which is far more likely to explain the lack of action than some politically correct oversensitivity to race.


(...)


> It is something else that should most disturb in the Jay report, but it won't make newspaper headlines. The report reveals a safeguarding co-ordinator who had seven changes of manager in a year, management reorganisations diverting staff from contact with vulnerable children, professionals working as individuals where they should be co-ordinating with other services, and systems which need an inordinate number of meetings before approving action. It underlines the need to improve the standard of records, reports, referrals and assessments. Performance management and staff monitoring need strengthening. Better two-way communications between senior leaders and the front line are required. And Professor Jay highlights tricky decisions at a time of spending cuts. How much money should go to preventive work vs post-abuse care? Do hundreds of dramatic child abuse cases need more resources than thousands of cases of child neglect which draw public attention only when a child dies?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 31, 2014)

A change of management is arse-first. Anyone who read the chronology of reports actions then inspections then unplanned inspections (problem--we're working on it -def reported improvement on the proper inspections then unplanned inspection, you've done fuck all apart from the week before the planned inspection, you've probably faked notes as well) - this going on for year after year  knows it's a lot deeper than that.

Management. As if the people whose culture helped produce one side of this can fix it.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 1, 2014)

Channel 4 News interview with Hilary Wilmer of Parents Against Child Sexual Exploitation - video here :
http://www.channel4.com/news/abuse-scandal-is-a-vastly-wider-issue-than-rotherham



> There are claims that a 2002 report by a Home Office researcher into the abuse in Rotherham was never published.
> 
> "What happened to that report in Rotherham is that there was great dislike in what was being covered up."
> 
> ...





> But she explained that when the group first started to highlight these cases they "were virtually laughed at", and authorities told them that the "girls had chosen this lifestyle to feed their drug habit."
> 
> "We were told this is nonsense. These girls all come from dysfunctional families or they are in care and they've chosen to do this, why should we bother to help them?


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 1, 2014)

Mail on Sunday :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...inly-Asian-men-targeted-Manchester-alone.html

"Police plan mass raids on sex gangs: 'Day of reckoning' for hundreds of child abusers..."
"A source said the scale of the operation 'is almost beyond comprehension'

*Senior officers say it is coincidental that news of the crackdown has emerged so soon after the scandal that continues to engulf police and social services in Rotherham.*

Interesting piece by Nazir Afzal of the CPS on that same page (scroll down).


> The ethnicity of many of the abusers in Rotherham, Rochdale and other places is a matter of fact – they were from Pakistani or South Asian backgrounds.
> 
> I do not care where they come from as long as they are stopped and brought to justice. I told Parliament in 2012 that the ethnicity of the perpetrators was an issue, not the issue. It was not the abusers’ race that defined them, but their attitude to women and girls. They targeted girls because of their vulnerability, and failings by those who should have safeguarded them.





> There is, sadly, no community where women and girls are not at risk from sexual predators. The CPS has prosecuted people from over 25 countries, excluding those from outside the EU, for sexual offences and trafficking in the past three years. Abusers are of all nationalities, ethnicities and ages, though the vast majority are white British males.



*



*


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah, that old chestnut. 'local community leaders'. What elected office did these 'local community leaders' hold, or were they of the self-appointing variety?


Ones that the establishment find palatable.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 1, 2014)

Zizek enters the fray



> The left exhibited the worst of political correctness, mostly via generalisations: perpetrators were vaguely designated as “Asians”, claims were made that it was not about ethnicity and religion but about the domination of men over women, plus who are we – with our church paedophilia and Jimmy Savile – to adopt a high moral ground against a victimised minority … can one imagine a more effective way to open up the field to Ukip and other anti-immigrant populists who exploit the worries of ordinary people? Such anti-racism is effectively a barely covert racism, condescendingly treating Pakistanis as morally inferior beings who should not be held to our standards.



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...hild-sex-abuse-difficult-questions?CMP=twt_fd


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 1, 2014)

> we are dealing with the “political unconscious” of the Pakistani Muslim youth – not with chaotic violence, but with a ritualised violence with precise ideological contours: a youth group that experiences itself as marginalised and subordinated taking revenge on vulnerable women of the predominant group.



I don't think he's bothered familiarising himself with the facts before forming his opinion, tbh. Not much better than The Economist.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 1, 2014)

Isn't it brilliant that the best way to counter the arguments of the right is to use the arguments of the right? You don't see the edl out on the streets when the one of their own members are caught with their hands down a twelve year old's knickers. You don't hear a peep out of Zizek either.

Fuck off Zizek.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 1, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think he's bothered familiarising himself with the facts before forming his opinion, tbh.



That's a shocking thing to allege. Familiarize himself with the facts ?



> In attributing to Noam Chomsky the statement that Obama is a white guy who took some sun-tanning sessions, I repeated an untrue claim which appeared in Slovene media, so I can only offer my unreserved and unconditional apology.





> I would like to add that, even if the statement I falsely attributed to Chomsky were to be truly made by him, I would not consider it a patronizingly racist slur, but a fully admissible characterization in our political and ideological struggle. There are African-American intellectuals who allow themselves to be fully co-opted into the white-liberal academic establishment, and they are loved by the establishment precisely because they seem "one of us," white with a darkened skin.





> This is why, I think, the statement I falsely attributed to Chomsky does NOT amount to the same as Silvio Berlusconi’s misleadingly similar characterization of Obama as beautiful and well tanned: Berlusconi’s remark dismissed Obama’s blackness as an endearing eccentricity, thus obliterating the historical meaning of the fact that an African-American was elected President, while the remark I falsely attributed to Chomsky, if accurate, would point towards the ambiguous way Obama’s blackness can be instrumentalized to obfuscate our crucial political and economic struggles.


http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/136...ns-a-response-to-noam-chomsky-by-slavoj-zizek


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 1, 2014)

Panorama: Stolen Childhoods: The Grooming Scandal on 1 September on BBC One at 20.30 BST

Interesting accompanying interview with the researcher who's 2002 report was blocked

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-29012571



> The researcher, who does not want to be named, told BBC Panorama the draft of her final report was sent to the Home Office and Rotherham Council on a Friday.
> 
> That weekend, someone visited the offices of a youth organisation where she had been based, without permission.





> She said there had not been a break-in, but: "They'd gained access to the office and taken my data, so out of the number of filing cabinets there was one drawer emptied and it was emptied of my data.
> 
> "It had to be an employee of the council."


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 1, 2014)

Doncaster children's services just came out of special measures three weeks ago. Due to the deaths of a number of children whilst in the care or monitoring by the service Michael Gove put the government in charge and they seconded a team from child protection in from Rotherham council due to their good record in these kind of crisis.
Some of the seconded staff are now under investigation following the report being published. I will keep an ear to the ground re developments.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 1, 2014)

Citizen66 said:
			
		

> Fuck off Zizek.



Absolutely. There's absolutely no-one, anywhere, at any time, who can recycle the 'political correctness' cliche who isn't automatically and immediately proving themselves to be an absolute twazzock**

**(Unless they're pisstaking -- which Zizek clearly isn't).

" 'Political correctness', my arse!" (R, TM)


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 1, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Panorama: Stolen Childhoods: The Grooming Scandal on 1 September on BBC One at 20.30 BST
> 
> Interesting accompanying interview with the researcher who's 2002 report was blocked
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-29012571




What stood out from the Panorama programme for me, was the obvious collusion between the police, the council and the abusers...and the lack of follow up of this from the makers of Panorama.  Scandalous.


----------



## Fingers (Sep 1, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> Isn't it brilliant that the best way to counter the arguments of the right is to use the arguments of the right? You don't see the edl out on the streets when the one of their own members are caught with their hands down a twelve year old's knickers. You don't hear a peep out of Zizek either.
> 
> Fuck off Zizek.



In a few weeks you will be reading about a grooming trial equally as horrific as this, involving an EDL member which currently has reporting restrictions on it as he is facing many more charges.  I suspect they will not be camping outside the cop shop for that one.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 1, 2014)

Fingers said:


> In a few weeks you will be reading about a grooming trial equally as horrific as this, involving an EDL member which currently has reporting restrictions on it as he is facing many more charges.  I suspect they will not be camping outside the cop shop for that one.



Or demanding 'answers from the community'. Given that community is their own.

eg Zizek and others: the point of the 'politically correct' argument.

Yes there's a culture of rape on young girls emerging from Pakistani communities. They obviously covered it all up like Catholic congregations did. Twats.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 1, 2014)

It's like if you're in a white child sex ring it's highly secretive. But if you're in a Pakistani one you go home and tell your mam and aunties about it in order for them to tell the neighbours so the community can cover it up for you.


----------



## belboid (Sep 2, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> So does anyone have more info on the "Risky Business raid" alleged by the Times?
> 
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ief-faces-probe-on-grooming-scandal-1-6812171
> 
> ...


I know some of those who set up Risky Business, back in the day.  As the report mentions, they were a group who had the respect of (some of) the girls in question, and knew a hell of a lot about what was going on. They reported frequently on the dangers the girtls faced, and specifically about one particular taxi company. They were all but ignored, while they did keep getting funded, they were also being made to change their ways of working, so that statutory agencies were more directly involved.  unsurprisingly, once that happened, the girls became rather less involved with the group. 

I havent heard anything specific about a raid, but I'll try n find out


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 2, 2014)

Longer BBC interview with the researcher who's 2002 report was suppressed on this mornings Today programme. Clip here -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p025wpl7
her interview starts at about 2m30s following an interview with a former taxi driver describing the culture among  some drivers in Bradford in the 1980s.

It includes this about Social Services (about 3m40s).


> To a degree there was a response, insofar as quite often the girl’s were referred and a referral was accepted and actioned, and there was an assessment. Sometimes the girls were being removed into care. But the vast majority, the professional response was extremely poor, so you would have references to abusers being boyfriends, or ‘sweethearts’ I think cropped up quite a bit.





> And one of the cases that I dealt with which was a 14 year old girl, pregnant for the second time, and the Social Worker actively invited this man to her ante-natal appointments as if this was some kind of a routine relationship. This was a guy that was 10 years older, with a history of violent crime. Allegations that he was involved extensively in the sexual exploitation of children in Rotherham. But also married, with children of his own, and a pregnant wife at the time. So that gives you an example of the level of professional incompetence that we were encountering.



It doesn't cover the same ground as the interview with her in last nights Panorama which referred to the circumstances in which immediately after the draft report was handed to the Council someone with keys (it is suggested a Council employee) entered the Risky Business offices and removed her research materials. I assume that is what has been described as a 'raid'.

Applying a 'targeted' and 'forensic' focus to the most important issue (reputational damage) Labour suspend four party members pending an investigation, including Jahangir Akhtar and resigned Council leader Roger Stone, and place various local functions under NEC supervision.
http://news.sky.com/story/1328693/rotherham-abuse-labour-suspends-members

South Yorkshire Police announce (yet another) independent investigation
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-09-02/police-launch-independent-review-into-rotherham-failings/


> “A fully independent and impartial investigation is required to ensure that people have confidence that organisations or any individuals will be investigated fairly, rigorously and with complete impartiality," chief constable David Crompton said.
> 
> “The investigation will properly and independently examine the role of both the police and council during the period identified and address any wrongdoings or failings, which will allow the appropriate action to be taken."



"fully independent" "complete impartiality" "properly and independently examine". Surely he's not implying that some other report criticizing the police might turn out not to have fully met these criteria, once the facts have been 'fairly' and 'rigorously' considered - by another Police Force ?


----------



## Libertad (Sep 2, 2014)

Call You and Yours (Radio4) at 12.15 is to address the subject.



> Over a period of sixteen years some 1,400 girls were sexually abused by men in Rotherham - yet social workers, councillors and the police failed to act quickly to stop it. Call You and Yours asks what went wrong and what needs to be done to fix the child protection system.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 2, 2014)

Programme available to listen again:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04fz507


----------



## 8115 (Sep 2, 2014)

BBC Asian Network interview with a man who had worked in a taxi office in Bradford at the time this was happening, it's sad but interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p025xlps


----------



## Betsy (Sep 3, 2014)

A meeting of Rotherham Council today...."Expect a lot of blame shifting" said the BBC reporter on 5 Live.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 3, 2014)

It was a Rotherham Council Cabinet meeting to discuss and accept the Jay Report and it's recommendations. There was a live webcast which I caught the last two thirds of. In what I saw the tone of the meeting was sombre. Outside attendance didn't seem very large.  The meeting apparently started with questions from the public which I missed but there's some small clips from that part of the meeting on the BBC website under the headline

*Locals express anger at abuse scandal at Rotherham council meeting*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29045180

I can only say that in terms of London (and particularly Tower Hamlets) Council meetings I've been at, if that is what passes for an angry meeting in Rotherham then anger must be a ridiculously expensive luxury up there. Perhaps that is another part of the background problem.

There was then a lengthy statement by CE Martin Kimber which I missed the start of. The only point of interest I noted was that on the basis of information in the Jay Report 'discussions' were taking place with one current Council officer about their actions and what they knew, and that information which had come to light since had triggered 'discussions' with a second. 

Questions from Cabinet Members followed eliciting reassurances that systems and procedures were now more robust and a lot of work was being done etc. etc. The only interesting points were a statement by the relevant Cabinet member that events had had an impact on some 'inward investment' opportunities, and some pointed questions from a non-Cabinet member of the scrutiny board about the extent to which the efforts to sort things out were currently subject to scrutiny.

The report and recommendations were accepted with some minor additions, a couple addressed at further strengthening scrutiny arrangements and a couple seeking reassurances from other agencies that historic cases were being looked at. The only interesting addition was one of the latter aimed at the CPS. (The point was made - correctly I think - that last year Shaun Wright had instituted a number of enquiries, one of them being into the role of the CPS in these events but that nothing further had been heard about that).

Mindful of the level of outside scrutiny 'constitutional regulations' were set aside to allow opposition Councillors to ask some questions. One took up the issue of currently serving Councillors who had attended the 2006 seminar where the scale of issues had been set out. (This had come up earlier as can be seen in the BBC clip). Although attendees at the seminar had been told to keep what was said confidential in order not to 'prejudice current investigations' it was pointed out that was 9 years ago. Five currently serving Councillors were named. Two of these Councillors responded but there wasn't much either could say.


----------



## belboid (Sep 3, 2014)

Bernie Gunther said:


> So does anyone have more info on the "Risky Business raid" alleged by the Times?
> 
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...ief-faces-probe-on-grooming-scandal-1-6812171
> 
> ...


according to one of the workers there at the time:

They came in on the Monday morning to find their office had been broken into, and one filing cabinet ransacked. No sign of break-in in the wider building, just their office. And just that filing cabinet.  The workers' views on the problems were dismissed because they were 'hysterical youth workers' (mostly women, natch) who didn't really know what they were talking about.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 3, 2014)

'No-one told me' former South Yorkshire Chief Constable Mike Hedges (1998-2004) tells the Today programm.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-29041925


> (...) I feel most uncomfortable and disappointed that we didn't pick up these signals and run with them.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 3, 2014)

Lurdan at #1198 quoted Nazir Afzal in the MoS. 

Nafzal also said this: 





> My work saw me go up against not only the offenders, but those who tried to intimidate me for bringing abusers before the courts. They said I had given racists a stick with which to beat minorities – I said our communities should be carrying their own sticks.



Then Simon Danczuk says this: 





> Simon Danczuk, who helped expose a pattern of grooming of white teenage girls by men from a Pakistani background in Rochdale, where he is the Labour MP, said a culture of intimidation and closing of ranks within parts of the Asian community had mired politics in towns and cities across northern England for years.
> 
> He said Asian councillors were under constant pressure from the community to “conform” and other politicians acquiesced for fear of being accused of racism, failing to face up to evidence of abuse as a result.





> “There are cultural issues around the way politics are done in the Asian community which have to change,” he said.
> 
> He said he had personally come under pressure from Asian councillors and members of the community for speaking out as well as being warned by prominent figures in his party.
> 
> ...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...m-Pakistan-fuelled-sex-abuse-cover-up-MP.html

Admittedly both articles are in right wing papers, but then who else would be willing to publish such allegations? The thing that bothers me most is Afzal's use of the word 'intimidate'. As a lawyer he is unlikely to use the word lightly.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 3, 2014)

Corrupt councillors are the real victims in all this. 

The hand-washing is extraordinary. They'll be red-raw by the end if it.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 3, 2014)

Constituents threatening to vote out an elected official is intimidation?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 3, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Constituents threatening to vote out an elected official is intimidation?


A grave threat to democracy.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 3, 2014)

Yeah, agreed, the voting out isn't so bad! But I'd like to know what sort of intimidation the Crown Prosecutor was subjected to.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Sep 3, 2014)

belboid said:


> according to one of the workers there at the time:
> 
> They came in on the Monday morning to find their office had been broken into, and one filing cabinet ransacked. No sign of break-in in the wider building, just their office. And just that filing cabinet.  The workers' views on the problems were dismissed because they were 'hysterical youth workers' (mostly women, natch) who didn't really know what they were talking about.



Thanks.


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## treelover (Sep 3, 2014)

> It was a Rotherham Council Cabinet meeting to discuss and accept the Jay Report and it's recommendations. There was a live webcast which I caught the last two thirds of. In what I saw the tone of the meeting was sombre. Outside attendance didn't seem very large. The meeting apparently started with questions from the public which I missed but there's some small clips from that part of the meeting on the BBC website under the headline.
> 
> I can only say that in terms of London (and particularly Tower Hamlets) Council meetings I've been at, if that is what passes for an angry meeting in Rotherham then anger must be a ridiculously expensive luxury up there. Perhaps that is another part of the background problem.
> 
> *Locals express anger at abuse scandal at Rotherham council meeting*



You clearly haven't been listening to local media, most people didn't know about the meeting, phone in shows like Toby Fosters on Radio Sheffield have heard truly visceral anger on a mass scale towards the perpetrators, the police, and the council, and yes, from some, the wider british pakistani community who they accuse of 'shielding', etc, Foster has made a point of identifying the ethnic identity of the perpetrators in this specific case and his view, the possible culpability of the wider community, he is now very popular in the area, make of that what you will.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 3, 2014)

treelover said:


> You clearly haven't been listening to local media, most people didn't know about the meeting (...)



My opinion of the meeting is obviously no more than that (and clearly I have no idea how Rotherham meetings are normally conducted) however the webcast is now up on the Rotherham Council site so you can form your own view.
http://www.rotherham.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/145578


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## dylanredefined (Sep 3, 2014)

Fingers said:


> In a few weeks you will be reading about a grooming trial equally as horrific as this, involving an EDL member which currently has reporting restrictions on it as he is facing many more charges.  I suspect they will not be camping outside the cop shop for that one.


  I'd be surprised if it is as worse than Rotherman  unless every cop and social worker thinks it is okay for children to be abused.
  I'm sure he is an evil shit ,but, only one guy.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

On Tuesday, after being reminded that there had been no prosecutions for Child Sexual Exploitation in South Yorkshire between 2010 and 2013, David Crompton, South Yorkshire Chief Constable told the Home Affairs Committee that since the start of 2013 there had been 104 convictions and 40 people were currently on bail. He added that in Rotherham there were now two "very significant" multiple victim and multiple offender investigations and seven other investigations all of them historic and relating to the period covered by the Jay report.

Yesterday he was obliged to correct himself about the figures he had given - in fact there have only been 37 convictions (and it's unclear what these were for).
http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2014-09-03/chief-constable-gave-incorrect-information-vaz/

Asked if any of the Police Officers whose decisions not to act, or who had arrested victims or their parents rather than abusers, had been identified or were subject to investigation there was a long pause before he confirmed he was unable to answer. His decision to involve another Police Force as well the IPCC in the independent investigation he's commissioning was questioned.

During the hearing Keith Vaz stated there would be a specific Home Affairs Committee hearing about Rotherham next Tuesday, involving Crompton again, Shaun Wright, Joyce Thacker (Rotherham Strategic Head of Children's Services), Alexis Jay and possibly others. (It's not yet listed on the Committee calendar).

The recording of last Tuesday's session is now on the BBC website
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/house-of-commons-29014321

Crompton is questioned about Rotherham between 1h33m40s and 1h53m50s. (From 39m30s on he gives his version of Cliffgate).


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

Another very interesting interview with Nazir Afzal of the CPS in the Guardian. It covers a lot of ground (although not the question of how in some cases it took the CPS months before deciding not to proceed with cases) and the whole thing is well worth reading.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...no-religious-basis-for-the-abuse-in-rotherham

These bits struck me particularly :


> Where there is involvement of Asian men or men of Pakistani origin, he points to a practical, rather than cultural explanation – the fact that in the areas where grooming scandals have been uncovered, those controlling the night-time economy, people working through the night in takeaways and driving minicabs, are predominantly Asian men. He argues that evidence suggests that victims were not targeted because they were white but because they were vulnerable and their vulnerability caused them to seek out “warmth, love, transport, mind-numbing substances, drugs, alcohol and food”.





> “Who offers those things? In certain parts of the country, the place they go is the night-time economy,” he says. “Where you have Pakistani men, Asian men, disproportionately employed in the night-time economy, they are going to be more involved in this kind of activity than perhaps white men are. We keep hearing people talk about a problem in the north and the Midlands, and that’s where you have lots of minicab drivers, lots of people employed in takeaways, from that kind of background. If you have a preponderance of Asians working in those fields, some of that number, a very small number of those people, will take advantage of the girls who have moved into their sphere of influence. It’s tragic.”


----------



## belboid (Sep 4, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> These bits struck me particularly :


both very true, ime. This has come up in discussions in relation to previous exploitation cases.  sadly it, and the reasons why predominantly  asian men are pushed into the night-time economy, usually get ignored


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## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

What are the push reasons?


----------



## belboid (Sep 4, 2014)

the obvious ones. poverty and racism most notably

It's not just an asian, or a recent thing either. Sadly quite a few taxi drivers have seen vulnerable young women as a 'perk' of the job


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> the obvious ones. poverty and racism most notably


A culture of small business ownership with pooled capital offering employment to family members and people from the wider network new in the area looking for short term work? The economy isn't de-linked from culture.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2014)

belboid said:


> the obvious ones. poverty and racism most notably
> 
> It's not just an asian, or a recent thing either. Sadly quite a few taxi drivers have seen vulnerable young women as a 'perk' of the job


these quite a few all in rape gangs then?


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> A culture of small business ownership with pooled capital offering employment to family members and people from the wider network new in the area looking for short term work? The economy isn't de-linked from culture.


Alongside a criminal culture which sees the advantages of taxi-firms as a cash-business which can also act a useful cover for a range of supplementary activities : dealing, procuring, 'couriering' of all kinds, etc. There is more than one business model and more than one 'culture' involved.

And all set against the broader economic background of why there is demand for taxi services in areas where alternative transport options have been run down.


> The poorest make more than three times as many trips a year by bus as the richest, it says. But while car ownership is nearly universal among wealthier people, only 30% of households in the poorest income decile own a vehicle. Poorer groups therefore rely on bus services or have to take taxis. The report shows that the poorest fifth of households take more taxi journeys per year than any other income group.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/26/bus-deregulation-outside-london-failure-thinktank


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## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Alongside a criminal culture which sees the advantages of taxi-firms as a cash-business which can also act a useful cover for a range of supplementary activities : dealing, procuring, 'couriering' of all kinds, etc. There is more than one business model and more than one 'culture' involved.
> 
> And all set against the broader economic background of why there is demand for taxi services in areas where alternative transport options have been run down.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/26/bus-deregulation-outside-london-failure-thinktank



There certainly are - but you're getting close to the idea that this late night economy _just exists_ with no prior determinants - and in proportion to wider culture (and that this wider culture exists). If there is a specific money making niche that  a culture fits then why would that not be represented more heavily in that niche. It is. Culture helped build that space. All the things i mentioned above plus low entry costs, cheap family labour (no min wage). if there are many cultures involved here then examination of the crossovers is key. As is being clear on what we mean by culture lest we end up with people thinking we mean muslim culture or white culture or pakistani culture or that we accept these sort of major terms.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 4, 2014)

So better public transport might help to remove occasions for abuse (but remove a source of income for innocent taxi drivers)? 
Is it really so simple?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

Free lift here and there, _you know my mate *** want some grub...fancy a drink_

Buses are irrelvant


----------



## Part 2 (Sep 4, 2014)

Not following the thread but in Manchester 20 years ago the bus drivers were behind loads of this type of activity, letting kids from care ride for free etc...most were white. 

In fact not just kids from care "M8 mate" was well known to get you on for free, especially night buses.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> There certainly are - but you're getting close to the idea that this late night economy _just exists_ with no prior determinants - and in proportion to wider culture (and that this wider culture exists). If there is a specific money making niche that  a culture fits then why would that not be represented more heavily in that niche. It is. Culture helped build that space. All the things i mentioned above plus low entry costs, cheap family labour (no min wage). if there are many cultures involved here then examination of the crossovers is key. As is being clear on what we mean by culture lest we end up with people thinking we mean muslim culture or white culture or pakistani culture or that we accept these sort of major terms.


I'd hope I wasn't saying anything of the kind.

The attraction of the family business model for minority communities is obvious. However it isn't the only model for small businesses in this area. Any more than it  accounts for all employment opportunities for drivers from minority communities. A common element of small businesses is that outside the core employees (sometimes family, sometimes friends, sometimes from the same community or ethnicity), there will be a layer of more casual employees working occasional shifts as demand changes. Quite common for those in this more peripheral group of employees to be from a different community or ethnicity.

I entirely agree we need to be clear about what we mean by 'culture'. My concern was that this isn't simply discussed in terms of assumed notions of Pakistani culture, since it is evident that isn't the only 'culture' in play.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 4, 2014)

Tbh, there's a suspicion that the late night economy is simply taking to another level a transaction that started with cars hanging around school gates. That is probably just a calumny but it's a surprisingly persistent one.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Free lift here and there, _you know my mate *** want some grub...fancy a drink_
> 
> Buses are irrelvant



Well they are also part of the 'late night economy' and mark out the territory in which late night 'culture' takes place.

Jay Report :


> 8.26 - All the young people we met preferred to use the bus, despite their nervousness and dislike of the Rotherham Interchange, which they described as attracting drug dealers, addicts and people involved in a range of criminal activity. Many of these people congregated outside the Bus Station. The young people described their sense of intimidation and 'running the gauntlet' to get to their buses.



(And no, I'm not suggesting that better public transport is a solution to child sexual abuse. *eyeroll*)


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Tbh, there's a suspicion that the late night economy is simply taking to another level a transaction that started with cars hanging around school gates. That is probably just a calumny but it's a surprisingly persistent one.


I'd agree in the sense you put it but we are certainly talking about a spectrum of different types of sexual exploitation from people acting alone or in groups for their own gratification to people engaged in organized grooming and pimping. (And at the latter end of the spectrum transactions for 'favours' as well as for money).


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Well they are also part of the 'late night economy' and mark out the territory in which late night 'culture' takes place.
> 
> Jay Report :
> 
> ...


Why did they suggest that though? The previous para says:



> In a number of different meetings, the Inquiry talked to 24 young people, aged 14-25, who lived in the Council area. One of the main items for discussion with them was safe transport. When asked about taxis, there was an immediate and consistent response from the young women and men on every occasion. All avoided the use of taxis if at all possible. Their parents and partners strongly discouraged, even forbade, them from being on their own at night in a taxi, unless it was a company they personally knew. The girls described how on occasions they would be taken on the longest, darkest route home. One said the driver's first question would be 'How old are you, love?'. All talked about the content of their conversation quickly turning flirtatious or suggestive, including references to sex.



This was not a talk to the victims btw. This was just kids - who knew somehow knew about the taxis. The taxis were marked off as a boundary almost.

(Let's make that clear the young people in Lurdans post were not the victims).

Girls being driven round by taxi and others on buses.


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## bluescreen (Sep 4, 2014)

The suspicion that people were acting in groups, that they were sending attractive young men out as bait, that gangs were in any way influential with the police letting suspects know that a victim was in the interview room or encouraging polis to lose evidence, that councillors attempted to influence anything whatsoever -- all these suspicions fill me with self loathing.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Why did they suggest that though? The previous para says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No longer really clear what I'm supposed to be disagreeing with you about or vice versa.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

We're not mate


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 4, 2014)

Well, damn it, wheres the fun in that


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 4, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Well, damn it, wheres the fun in that


I'm off for a few pints shortly - i'll see what i can do when i get back


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## malatesta32 (Sep 4, 2014)

thank heavens the EDL are helping the victims! 
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/


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## bluescreen (Sep 5, 2014)

Interesting letter from Dr Shaaz Mahboob, Tehmina Kazi et al. 





> <snip> We must face up to the cultural, racial and even religious specifics in these crimes. The “double life” syndrome of some men in Pakistani communities cannot be ignored. At the more benign end of the scale, young people will have secret boyfriends and girlfriends, yet display a more pious image in front of their families. The sort of reprehensible conduct we have seen in towns like Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxford is an extreme example of this phenomenon.
> 
> Tribal mentalities have imported an honour code that labels women as either honourable or shameful. In some quarters this has developed into an underground “gangster” culture of exploiting and abusing girls who do not fit the honour code. In either case, abuse must be exposed and perpetrators brought before the law.
> 
> The honour code has no place in this country: women and girls, regardless of background, culture, ethnicity, religion, lifestyle, or familial lineage, are of equal worth. Fortunately, there is an emerging generation of human rights activists in Britain – many of whom are young, female and secular-minded – who are campaigning hard against misogyny and patriarchy within our communities.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...l-honour-code-masks-sexual-abuse-9712782.html


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## redsquirrel (Sep 5, 2014)

Fingers said:


> In a few weeks you will be reading about a grooming trial equally as horrific as this, involving an EDL member which currently has reporting restrictions on it as he is facing many more charges.  I suspect they will not be camping outside the cop shop for that one.


Have we had the UKIP "godsend" story yet or are we still waiting for that?


----------



## Diamond (Sep 6, 2014)

I don't know how the CPS allocates its resources, but surely one of the most troubling aspects of this whole episode (and one which I think no one could find fault with on political, cultural, or social grounds) is the extremely low number of prosecutions set against the very high number of suspected victims...

Have deals been done, people intimidated or simply resources allocated to more "worthy" causes?

Given the evidence base referred to in the report, though notably not appended, there should be more than enough to go to town on a lot of the abusers.


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## Diamond (Sep 6, 2014)

Or maybe we would be looking at things from the wrong end of the telescope by asking that question...

Perhaps the whole point that there is no published evidence base is, in turn, evidence of a deal that has been cut.

Something that goes along the lines of the following - we 'fess up to and give you all the bad stuff so long as you do not prosecute, thereby protecting the "community" (and again underlining the self-serving multi-kulti reprisal/save our jobs fear).


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 6, 2014)

Waking up to the need to demonstrate that they are protecting the threatened and vulnerable, following massive failures and at a time of deep budget cuts, South Yorkshire Police make their move :

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...rham-crime-chief-gets-death-threats-1-6825758


> *SOUTH Yorkshire Police and Crime commissioner Shaun Wright has received death threats in the wake of the damning report into child abuse in Rotherham and his refusal to resign, The Yorkshire Post understands.*
> 
> South Yorkshire Police confirmed last night it had reviewed the safety of several people since the report’s publication to ensure “proportionate safety measures” are in place but refused to confirm whether protection has been stepped up around Mr Wright.





> In a statement, the crime commissioner’s office said: “We welcome feedback from all citizens and we strongly advocate the right of the public to participate in democracy through legitimate means, such as peaceful public protest. There is however a line in law that cannot not be crossed.
> 
> “Where threats are made to any individual, the individual has a right to protection and the level of protection provided in such cases is a matter for operational policing.”


Well obviously they have to start somewhere.


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## J Ed (Sep 6, 2014)

Comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted


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## likesfish (Sep 7, 2014)

“Where threats are made to any individual, the individual has a right to protection and the level of protection provided in such cases is a matter for operational policing.”

So an odious incompetant prick gets protectin  from itg threats.

But vulnerable girls get gang raped because its too much hassle


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## Lurdan (Sep 8, 2014)

The Home Affairs Committee are spending tomorrow afternoon (Tuesday 9th) taking evidence specifically about the events in Rotherham.

The current line up and times are :
At 3.00pm
  Chief Constable David Crompton QPM, South Yorkshire Police
  Former Chief Constable Meredydd John Hughes CBE QPM, South Yorkshire Police

At 3.30pm
  Martin Kimber, Chief Executive, Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council
  Joyce Thacker OBE, Strategic Director for Children, Young People and Families, Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council

At 4.00pm
  Shaun Wright, South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner

And at 4.30pm
  Peter Wanless and Richard Whittam QC
"about progress in their ongoing review of how the Home Office handled historical allegations of child abuse."

details here:
http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...e-affairs-committee/news/140904-rotherham-ev/

I assume this will be broadcast live on the parliament.uk site (using Silverlight) and/or on the BBC Democracy Live site. I'll try and post a link tomorrow.


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## The39thStep (Sep 8, 2014)

Hasn't the chief exec resigned?


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## Lurdan (Sep 8, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Hasn't the chief exec resigned?


He's announced his resignation effective December. The Council's statement about it which includes his is here :
http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/news/article/243/statement_from_martin_kimber


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2014)

*BBC Look North*@BBCLookNorth
Home Office researcher claimes she was threatened by South Yorkshire police officers - with suggestion they would tell groomers her address

The claim, i don't know where it will or has appeared.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> *BBC Look North*@BBCLookNorth
> Home Office researcher claimes she was threatened by South Yorkshire police officers - with suggestion they would tell groomers her address
> 
> The claim, i don't know where it will or has appeared.


The Home Affairs Committee heard evidence from the 2002 researcher this afternoon in closed session - this threat was then put to the Current Chief Constable.
Session still ongoing now :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/21006886


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> The Home Affairs Committee heard evidence from the 2002 researcher this afternoon in closed session - this threat was then put to the Current Chief Constable.
> Session still ongoing now :
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/21006886


Ta. That makes sense of a few things that i was getting earlier.


----------



## Flanflinger (Sep 9, 2014)

Fingers said:


> In a few weeks you will be reading about a grooming trial equally as horrific as this, involving an EDL member which currently has reporting restrictions on it as he is facing many more charges.  I suspect they will not be camping outside the cop shop for that one.


 
I look forward to reading about that. Unless of course you are making it up !!!!!!!


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## Fingers (Sep 9, 2014)

Flanflinger said:


> I look forward to reading about that. Unless of course you are making it up !!!!!!!



Going to the effort of making it up would be a pretty pointless exercise to be honest.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2014)

Fingers said:


> Going to the effort of making it up would be a pretty pointless exercise to be honest.


Yeah - but you may have been sold a pup. See Jasna for past pup-sellery.


----------



## Fingers (Sep 9, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Yeah - but you may have been sold a pup. See Jasna for past pup-sellery.



The stuff about Jasna came with a caveat that it might be horseshit if you cast your mind back.  I am still not sold either way. Talking of Jasna,  Lee Jasper seems to have taken up her case recently if you are interested in a very long read

http://leejasper.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/ukip-metropolitan-police-service-and.html


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## Lurdan (Sep 9, 2014)

Some interesting fragments of information  from the Home Affairs Committee :
Began with closed session involving Angie Heal (2003 report), Jayne Senior formerly of Risky Business and the 2002 researcher.

First witnesses current and former Chief Constables.

The exact words used by the Committee Member (ETA: Nicola Blackwood) to describe the threat to the researcher were :

"She was threatened in her car at night by two police officers who told her 'Wouldn't it be a bad thing if some of these men found out where you lived', and she feared for her life".

Apparently when the researchers materials were removed from the Risky Business offices the persons involved (more than one) were seen by a caretaker. They had the key combination (presumably to offices) and cabinet keys. Supposedly only 5 known people (presumably outside the project) had these. No police investigation. Suggestion later in the session of people being advised 'not to report' the incident. Not stated by whom. SYP can 'find no record' of these events.

Police officers involved in the incident where victims arrested for drunkeness identified. One now retired. Matter to be referred to IPCC. Other incidents mentioned at last weeks session being investigated.

13 more victims have come forward since last week.

There have been 68 convictions for CSE since start of 2013. (Not clear over what area - presumably whole SYP).

ETA : Committee had been supplied with a list of prosecutions and convictions and observed that it appeared to involve repeat offenders.

David Crompton stated that he is now 'negotiating' with National Crime Agency to run independent investigation. A former Chief Constable to head it has been identified. Presumably not the former SYP Chief Constable sitting next to him who got something of a monstering from the committee for his repeated claim that he had been unaware of the "scale and scope" of the CSE.


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## butchersapron (Sep 9, 2014)

Fingers said:


> The stuff about Jasna came with a caveat that it might be horseshit if you cast you mind back.  Talking of Jasna,  Lee Jasper seems to have taken up her case recently if you are interested in a very long read
> 
> http://leejasper.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/ukip-metropolitan-police-service-and.html


No it didn't.  Please point to your "caveat that it might be horseshit ".

Edit And you, fingers, are going to get away with it because the above is more important and i'm letting you off the hook.


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## Fingers (Sep 9, 2014)

I stand corrected, there was no caveat, I am still not sold either way on that story and at the time there was certainly a press interest in it even though it did not get published. Hope that clears thing up.

Back on topic, my friend was at the EDL court case in the north east for the trial and sentencing two weeks ago, and he will be at the court case for the further trial on the new charges whenever the dates for this are, so I am quite confident you will be reading about it in the next few weeks or so.


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## Fingers (Sep 9, 2014)

Well that is a relief,   tedious Internet gobshite is 'letting me off the hook'  thanks for that...  Off you fuck son....


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## Chilli.s (Sep 10, 2014)

Police on radio4 this morning saying that as the (child) victims did not make a complaint they were not able to investigate. What a weak defence for neglecting child protection.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 10, 2014)

Chilli.s said:


> Police on radio4 this morning saying that as the (child) victims did not make a complaint they were not able to investigate. What a weak defence for neglecting child protection.


Especially as the police have always had the power to take forward cases regardless of an active complaint.


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## Chilli.s (Sep 10, 2014)

Yeah, smells like a flimsy smokescreen for some kind systemic laziness. Or corruption.


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## likesfish (Sep 10, 2014)

Or all 3 
*Aylesbury is the latest town 11 men so far arrestted asian men again*


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## bluescreen (Sep 10, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Or all 3
> *Aylesbury is the latest town 11 men so far arrestted asian men again*


Not really convinced that the ethnicity of the perps is really relevant except as an excuse to exploit and an excuse to ignore. The main issue is gangs who are into drugs and other rackets, which can flourish in any tight-knit and marginalised community, cf Mafia in the US.


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## bluescreen (Sep 10, 2014)

Tbh it's worrying that the focus on Kashmiri gangs is deflecting attention from other racketeers.

ETA racketeers, not rackets. The rackets are usually the same sort of thing whoever runs them.


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## bluescreen (Sep 12, 2014)

Good grief. This is heartbreaking.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ually-abused-child-care-homes-video-interview


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## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

Interesting BBC documentary from 2011(didn't see it posted on this thread).

Adil Ray investigates the _grooming_ of young girls for _sex_ by Pakistani men in the UK.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

Ugh. What's 'Pakistani' got to do with anything? Is this emphasis on ethnicity remotely helpful or does it serve to feed prejudice?


----------



## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Ugh. What's 'Pakistani' got to do with anything? Is this emphasis on ethnicity remotely helpful or does it serve to feed prejudice?


Because that it what the documentary is about. If you have an issue with the "ethnicity" I recommend you take it up with Adil Ray, for it is he who decided to make the issue/documentary about "Pakistani men".

If you bother to watch just the first 5 minutes you'd may be understand more 



1%er said:


> Adil Ray investigates the _grooming_ of young girls for _sex_ by Pakistani men in the UK.


Is taken from the BBC site, it is how they have described the program


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

Ugh. I will watch, though the whole approach sounds dodgy and playing to stereotypes.


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## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Ugh. I will watch, though the whole approach sounds dodgy and playing to stereotypes.


Maybe you should watch it before you comment about it


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

Still wondering if Pakistanis have been unfairly targeted. If the offences are evenly ethnically distributed there will be thousands more perpetrated by the white community. See the statistics.
https://fullfact.org/factchecks/race_and_sex_offences-27153


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

And yeah, I have an issue with the ethnicity of offenders if people are taking ethnicity as a first category. It is rubbish compared with income, level of education etc.


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## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Still wondering if Pakistanis have been unfairly targeted. If the offences are evenly ethnically distributed there will be thousands more perpetrated by the white community. See the statistics.
> https://fullfact.org/factchecks/race_and_sex_offences-27153


Stop "wondering" and watch it, until you do you are posting from a perspective of ignorance. See what Adil Ray a journalist who describes himself as a British Pakistani has to say, rather than just posting from your perspective, having not watched what he has to say.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

God that's a crap programme. The first question I want to ask is how many white men are getting off. Is the number of arrests and convictions proportionate?


----------



## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> God that's a crap programme. The first question I want to ask is how many white men are getting off. Is the number of arrests arrests and convictions proportionate?


Well your view differs from mine, as I think it was interesting and showed the Pakistani community in a good light.

So you watched an almost hour long documentary in well under an hour, interesting.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

The programme is heavily edited for drama. Ugh.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

And yeah, I'm still watching it, and feeling manipulated.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

The fact that the story is being presented by someone of Pakistani heritage appears to whitewash the appalling prejudice. This doesn't represent the British Pakistani community.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

Plays straight into EDL narrative.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

Ah, the police woman says the majority of those apprehended are white men. So why why are so many convicted Asian males? Uh, racial prejudice, anyone?


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## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

As someone who lives over 7,000km from this situation I found it very interesting. I have no problem with a person who describes them-self as a British Pakistani journalist looking into something that effects the community that he comes from. From what I saw I think is was balanced and fair.

If it had been described as a documentary about sexual exploitation in the UK and had just focused on Pakistani's I'd have some sympathy with you view, but it clearly wasn't.


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## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Ah, the police woman says the majority of those apprehended are white men. So why why are so many convicted Asian males? Uh, racial prejudice, anyone?





bluescreen said:


> Still wondering if Pakistanis have been unfairly targeted. If the offences are evenly ethnically distributed there will be thousands more perpetrated by the white community. See the statistics.
> https://fullfact.org/factchecks/race_and_sex_offences-27153


I think your own post answers your question







A quote from your link:
This article originally said that Table 4 of the CEOP showed a majority of Asian offenders were of Pakistani origin. This was incorrect, and that part of the sentence has been removed.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

As someone who lives over 7,000km from Derby you don't know wtf you are talking about.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

You are suggesting that arrest and conviction are fairly distributed ethnically? I don't think so. Asians are ten times more likely to be arrested for a start.


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## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> You are suggesting that arrest and conviction are fairly distributed ethnically? I don't think so. Asians are ten times more likely to be arrested for a start.


I'm not suggesting anything, I'm going by the figures you provided in the link you posted



bluescreen said:


> As someone who lives over 7,000km from Derby you don't know wtf you are talking about.


I'm only taking about the documentary I watched.
It appears to me from your post that your personal prejudice has clouded your thinking (You had an opinion and decided the issue before you even watched the documentary). A British Pakistani journalist has looked at the issue in just one community, you seem to be making far more of it than that.


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

I've seen the whole thing now. Classic BBC moral panic. As I said before, ugh.


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## 1%er (Sep 14, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> I've seen the whole thing now. Classic BBC moral panic. As I said before, ugh.


lol


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## bluescreen (Sep 14, 2014)

I think it's a question of the line people take through the statistics. You could take the line of the bald men, the fat men, the men with an 1Q below 100 or the men with an income below the median wage. Any one of those would make a story. What sticks out for me in that documentary is the focus on Pakistani men and a total lack of focus on gangs, drugs and mobsters. That's the real menace here, not sad sex-starved muslims creeping around in taxis.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 15, 2014)

we've been through the stats earlier in this thread already - sex offences are one thing but grooming offences are another, with around a quarter of all convicted for grooming offences committed by 'Asians' with Asians making up 5% of the population (and of Asians, Pakistanis making overwhelmingly the largest portion). if you take actual incidences of grooming into account, the stats are far worse for Pakistanis as there have been far, far more victims amongst Pakistani grooming networks than amongst non. and, in relation to the actual grooming 'gangs' who are picking up girls in a systematic way, all of the big 5 since 1998 have been Pakistani gangs targetting non-Muslim girls (Oxford, Derby, Telford, Rochdale, Rotherham).

i'm sick to death of arguing with right on lefties who are determined to pull the wool over their own eyes here. there is clearly a self-replicating pattern of activity within certain sections of British Pakistani communities - CLEARLY. this is not all chalked down to media bias but if the left refuse to engage on the issue in a serious way then of course there will be a media bias, just as there is an absence of level-headed response.


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## 1%er (Sep 15, 2014)

There is something very seriously wrong with a society in which police, healthcare and childcare professionals appear willing to turn a blind eye to the rape and sexual abuse of young working-class girls for fear of being branded racist.

What on earth has lead to this appalling situation?


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 15, 2014)

1%er said:


> There is something very seriously wrong with a society in which police, healthcare and childcare professionals appear willing to turn a blind eye to the rape and sexual abuse of young working-class girls for fear of being branded racist.



There's something seriously wrong when these authorities don't give a shit about vulnerable girls. But the excuse given by some of them that fear of being branded racist stopped them from acting needs to be treated with caution. This is what they say happened, but not necessarily what happened.


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## belboid (Sep 15, 2014)

1%er said:


> There is something very seriously wrong with a society in which police, healthcare and childcare professionals appear willing to turn a blind eye to the rape and sexual abuse of young working-class girls for fear of being branded racist.


That's just bollocks tho.  The police didn't care about being seen as racist, they just didn't give a fuck about the girls involved. And it was overwhelmingly the police's fault that cases weren't taken forward - them and the CPS. There are cases every single day where there will be no prosecution - and where race has absolutely no influence over matters - because the CPS decide that the victim wont make a 'good enough' witness, and so the cases are dropped. 

Childcare professionals were, by and large, the ones making the complaints and trying to get them heard.  Fear of being branded racist only played a very very small part in things not happening sooner.


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## Red Cat (Sep 15, 2014)

1%er said:


> There is something very seriously wrong with a society in which police, healthcare and childcare professionals appear willing to turn a blind eye to the rape and sexual abuse of young working-class girls for fear of being branded racist.
> 
> What on earth has lead to this appalling situation?



I suggest you read the report.


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## likesfish (Sep 15, 2014)

Criminal ethnic orgin pakistani gangs get into this crime because they have members in taxis/other nightime economy and theirs vulnerable victims plus tight knit community likely to keep quiet about abuse because violent gangster have much more of a grip over a tight knit community.
 Being known as part of a hard family only works if the people your trying to threaten have heard of you otherwise its just embarrassing

 Much like criminal ex etonians do insider trading  and fraud oppurtunity access to the city and cash helps olus having a network will keep the roozers at bay for awhile.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2014)

1%er said:


> There is something very seriously wrong with a society in which police, healthcare and childcare professionals appear willing to turn a blind eye to the rape and sexual abuse of young working-class girls for fear of being branded racist.
> 
> What on earth has lead to this appalling situation?



You appear to be taking as read that the claims in the first paragraph of your post are accurate - that a deliberate and wide-ranging conspiracy took place down to fear of racism.
Because, of course, it couldn't possibly have come about because of classism, the institutional culture of police services, racism and plain incompetence, all mixed together with poor staffing and absolutely shoddy institutional accountablity on the part of social services depts, could it?

Here's the thing: This sort of "abuse ring" isn't new. The suborning of children into prostitution through emotional blackmail and through violence isn't new.  The *FAILURE TO ACT* isn't new.  We've been here before. The only "new" feature is the loading of blame almost entirely onto the British Pakistani communities.  50 years ago it was predominantly blamed on "Maltese ponces"; 40 years ago on "Black pimps"; 30 years ago it was "care home staff", and so on and so on. Give us another decade and the same problems will STILL be around, but they'll probably be blamed on eastern or Central European communities.
What does the above tell you? It tells me two very important things:
1) That while the British Pakistani community in many of these areas may be implicated, the problem doesn't *originate *with them, but with the way the state and its' various apparatuses think about and deal with "the lower orders".
2) That every time the extent to which children, and especially children in care are abused, lots of promises are made, but they comprise "sound and fury...signifying nothing".

I'm sure there are more than a few of us on here that either knew people in care as kids, or were in care, and knew this stuff was going on around them. I certainly knew kids back in the '70s and '80s who thought that abuse was just part of being "in care", and some who even accepted being pimped as their punishment for somehow having failed at life. People prey on that, whether they're Pakistani, Polish or whatever.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's something seriously wrong when these authorities don't give a shit about vulnerable girls. But the excuse given by some of them that fear of being branded racist stopped them from acting needs to be treated with caution. This is what they say happened, but not necessarily what happened.



There's something seriously wrong when the authorities don't give a shit about vulnerable *anyone*, whether they be children, adults or the elderly.  However, we need to analyse what the "don't give a shit" is based on.
In my own experience, to simplify the issues, it's the perceived result of a number of separate issues:
1) The switch from service provision to service commissioning forced on social services depts by new Labour.
2) The costs implications of the above (insert a new layer of bureaucracy, and the money to pay for the bureaucracy invariably comes from funds that would otherwise have paid for services).
3) The shabby state of care provision in most local authority homes, often extending back decades, due to increasing priority being given to services for the elderly post-around the late 1970s.
4) Police attitudes to and perceptions of working class children and their social value _per se_, and how that places working class children in care on an even lower rung.
5) Institutional reactions to previous abuse scandals - if the centre (i.e. central government) reacts by covering shit up, this sets an example to the periphery (local government) that's overwhelmingly-likely to be followed.
6) Institutional attitudes across the institutions dealing with children in care, and how they're informed by the social class of those who are part of those institutions.
7) Political considerations at both local and central level


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## Lurdan (Sep 15, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> we've been through the stats earlier in this thread already


Indeed - someone posted the figures from the CEOP's report without any reference to the strong reservations CEOP expressed about them, then threw a hufty fit when this was pointed out and cited a more 'reliable' source - articles in the the Murdoch press. Oh wait that was you.

There are no meaningful national statistics about 'localised grooming' yet because until very recently this issue was not seen as a priority (indeed for some agencies it's clear it was not even seen as a 'real' crime). I've no doubt there will be more robust national statistics pretty soon. (Figures that hopefully include offences reported AND prosecutions conducted as well as convictions). When there are it may well be that the scale of the problem in some heritage communities is far worse than we currently imagine. But until then waving these figures around risks looking rather like an exercise in giving a veneer of objectivity to your own prejudices.



> ]i'm sick to death of arguing with right on lefties who are determined to pull the wool over their own eyes here. there is clearly a self-replicating pattern of activity within certain sections of British Pakistani communities - CLEARLY. this is not all chalked down to media bias but if the left refuse to engage on the issue in a serious way then of course there will be a media bias, just as there is an absence of level-headed response.


And why should we assume it's just the Pakistani heritage community ? Why (serious question) shouldn't the same activity be found in other heritage communities ?

Your implication that the 'real' problem is the 'right on' 'lefts' failure to respond is stomach turning. Or do you just mean their failure to tell YOU how to respond? If you do, in fact, have some 'level-headed' populist bollocks to lay on us at this point why not just get on with it?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Sep 15, 2014)

who threw a 'hufty fit'? the reason to lay some criticism at the Pakistani community's door is because OF ALL THE GROOMING GANG CASES FOUND EMANATING FROM THAT COMMUNITY as opposed to the currently hypothetical crimes which may or may not have occurred elsewhere.

and what response should we have? i have been pretty up front and honest with my views this whole thread, your sneery aspersions toward imagined 'hufty-fits' notwithstanding... there are some opinions, often surprisingly widespread, held across many Pakistani communities in this country which i find frankly appalling, as would anybody who believes in any kind of common universal equality between people, genders, ethnic groups, etc. there are a great many cultural practices, from forced marriages to honour killings, which are totally incompatible with any society which values the personal freedom and right of an individual to live a life as they choose. and, in this case, there is a clear re-emerging criminal pattern of behaviour - targetted almost exclusively at non-muslim girls - emanating from one criminal section of several of these communities which cannot be entirely unrelated to these factors.

do these same issues recur in all tight-knit, culturally conservative and poverty-stricken communities? yes - to a degree - although clearly in this case there has been a surfeit of activity and the _scale_ and organisation of these gangs since 1998 is unparalleled in this country, in comparison to anything found elsewhere. 1,400 victims in Rotherham alone, over a decade - at a conservative estimate! and at the same time this is happening, we have a left determined to do _anything_ apart from admit that there is a problem. perversely, you lay all your disgust and contempt at the hands of the 'authorities failing to act' rather than the actual _perpetrators_ of the fucking crime, for whom you've got absolutely nothing other than passing references!! authorities failing to act is one thing - and it's obviously really bad - but it's a seriously skewed morality to act as though that is the most notably appalling thing that has occurred during this case.

i've never attempted to hide my views on the matter and it's pretty risible for you to infer otherwise. i know exactly how to respond to sit right with my own scruples, and your cowardly squirming away from dealing with awkward truths is not it.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 15, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> who threw a 'hufty fit'? the reason to lay some criticism at the Pakistani community's door is because OF ALL THE GROOMING GANG CASES FOUND EMANATING FROM THAT COMMUNITY as opposed to the currently hypothetical crimes which may or may not have occurred elsewhere.


All the Asian's arrested so far were of Pakistani heritage ? How do you know that ? You don't.  Heritage communities are to blame for the activities of the criminals among them ? Grooming gangs "emanate" from them ? Is that in the same way that bigotry "emanates" from other heritage communities ? 

"Currently hypothetical crimes" ? So you're suggesting that without yet knowing the scale of 'localised grooming' we jump to some conclusions where the problem is and what causes it ? Personally I think that the process of looking properly will show that the scale of this issue is far greater than is currently believed. But then unlike you I'm not looking for easy answers. And I'm particularly not looking for easy answers that suggest that the problem can be safely laid at the door of some other community and has nothing to do with attitudes and behaviours right across the society I'm part of.



> there are some opinions, often surprisingly widespread, held across many Pakistani communities in this country which i find frankly appalling, as would anybody who believes in any kind of common universal equality between people, genders, ethnic groups, etc. there are a great many cultural practices, from forced marriages to honour killings, which are totally incompatible with any society which values the personal freedom and right of an individual to live a life as they choose. and, in this case, there is a clear re-emerging criminal pattern of behaviour - targetted almost exclusively at non-muslim girls - emanating from one criminal section of several of these communities which cannot be entirely unrelated to these factors.


There are appalling attitudes towards women, children and particularly vulnerable women and children across every section of this society. Are the attitudes of the Pakistani heritage abusers in Rotherham towards their victims worse than the identical attitudes of contempt held by the police ? It would appear you think they are. Why is that ?



> perversely, you lay all your disgust and contempt at the hands of the 'authorities failing to act' rather than the actual _perpetrators_ of the fucking crime, for whom you've got absolutely nothing other than passing references!! authorities failing to act is one thing - and it's obviously really bad - but it's a seriously skewed morality to act as though that is the most notably appalling thing that has occurred during this case.


I have no difficulty at all in directing my anger at who committed the abuse, at those, in particular the police, who facilitated the abuse, and still have plenty to spare for thick bigots who want to 'explain' this criminal abuse by blaming the ethnic background of the abusers.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 15, 2014)

i haven't said that all arrested were of Pakistani heritage (that is actually definitively not the case) but the vast majority in the cases of Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Derby and Oxford were. that is a definitive fact.




			
				Lurdan said:
			
		

> There are appalling attitudes towards women, children and particularly vulnerable women and children across every section of this society.



if you believe that attitudes towards women and children are not, on average, worse in the Pakistani community than in general British society then you simply haven't had experience of the Pakistani community. and you are refusing to integrate any events or evidence which are put in your way in your determination to relativise cultural experiences.



> Are the attitudes of the Pakistani heritage abusers in Rotherham towards their victims worse than the identical attitudes of contempt held by the police ?



the Police didn't rape a bunch of children - are you kidding me? they failed to take the case seriously, a crime in itself but one which is of a totally different calibre. i know you see yourself as attempting to 'balance off' the debate by making them your primary focus but that is a cynical political position, not based on an honest assessment of the situation but on 'pragmatic' realpolikal reasoning.

this is a disgusting, decadent sophistry on your part. your argument may well be 'harder' to make, in that it lays blame at the foot of the authorities rather than an already socially maligned community - but unfortunately that doesn't make it any less wrong. and as it stands you appear to have no idea of the depth of the anger in working class communities around the North West and elsewhere (i have also lived in Sheffield and saw much of the same there) and how this constant relativistic bullshit is totally failing to provide any suitable answer as to how primarily two divided communities are supposed to continue to be peaceable neighbours after these kind of events have occurred.

for starters, stop denying there is a problem when there is a problem.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

Define the problem for us.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

the problem is two sets of social values which are incompatible, and one set needs to win out over the other.


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> the problem is two sets of social values which are incompatible, and one set needs to win out over the other.


Go on, tell us more.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

work it out yourself you cretin. i've put it there in writing


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> work it out yourself you cretin. i've put it there in writing


no you havent, you dishonest little man.  You've been deliberately vague and left everything of substance out.  All you've done is go 'I hate those lefties that I was really badly arguing on behalf of until a year or so ago'


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's something seriously wrong when the authorities don't give a shit about vulnerable *anyone*, whether they be children, adults or the elderly.  However, we need to analyse what the "don't give a shit" is based on.
> In my own experience, to simplify the issues, it's the perceived result of a number of separate issues:
> 1) The switch from service provision to service commissioning forced on social services depts by new Labour.
> 2) The costs implications of the above (insert a new layer of bureaucracy, and the money to pay for the bureaucracy invariably comes from funds that would otherwise have paid for services).
> ...



Good post this but need to add a bit.

An office hours culture in children's services in which every thing can wait until the next morning or Monday morning , staffing levels so low in kids homes ( whether private or council) mean that staff cannot leave the home , emergency social service teams that operate only by phone. These means that after five o clock the police are the only service responsible for vulnerable kids.

The logical direction of travel is a round the clock integrated co located service that focuses on vulnerability .


----------



## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

belboid said:


> no you havent, you dishonest little man.  You've been deliberately vague and left everything of substance out.  All you've done is go 'I hate those lefties that I was really badly arguing on behalf of until a year or so ago'



dishonest, fuck off. it's literally all there word for word for you. what details are vague? do you agree that non-Muslim girls who wear short skirts are universally prostitutes and whores? do you believe that decent girls need to be brought up under the constant supervision of their patriarch, who should intervene in all of their personal affairs from a young age to ensure they live a wholesome life and are married off to a decent sort? do you believe domestic abuse regulated by scriptural precedent is justified - in moderation - to prevent your wife and children from making incorrect life decisions? do you believe that certain forms of profession are 'ungainly' for a woman, who must primarily live for housework and children and to honour her husband - and that women who take on professions dishonour their families? these are all lessons to take away from an average North West Pakistani mosque.

in some more extreme cases, do you agree that for your daughter to live a wholesome life she should educated in a private madrassa rather than state school - where she will not even be taught how to properly read, as age 12 she will be sent on a holiday back to Pakistan where she'll get married off to some respectable tribal personality from you ancestor's locality? my home town, Chorley, has a private madrassa - i've been in it, whilst trying to set up a Stop the War branch with the Mosque. the children are gender segregated (naturally) and taught, amongst other things, that polyphonic music is evil alongside everything listed above.

if there's one thing i'm not guilty of on this thread it's concealing my views. your attempt to smear me with that brush is the absolute height of disingenuousness.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2014)

Shaun Wright gone.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> <snip>
> There are no meaningful national statistics about 'localised grooming' yet because until very recently this issue was not seen as a priority (indeed for some agencies it's clear it was not even seen as a 'real' crime). I've no doubt there will be more robust national statistics pretty soon. (Figures that hopefully include offences reported AND prosecutions conducted as well as convictions). When there are it may well be that the scale of the problem in some heritage communities is far worse than we currently imagine. But until then waving these figures around risks looking rather like an exercise in giving a veneer of objectivity to your own prejudices.



Just to add, police and "criminal justice" efforts with regard to grooming offences are almost entirely concentrated on so-called "internet grooming".  Cynics might say that this is because it garners plenty of camera minutes for the relevant minister.  Very little effort indeed is focused on the (older and more widespread) problem of local grooming.



> And why should we assume it's just the Pakistani heritage community ? Why (serious question) shouldn't the same activity be found in other heritage communities ?
> 
> Your implication that the 'real' problem is the 'right on' 'lefts' failure to respond is stomach turning. Or do you just mean their failure to tell YOU how to respond? If you do, in fact, have some 'level-headed' populist bollocks to lay on us at this point why not just get on with it?



TBF, I expect Das Uberdog has a fair quantity of animus against "the right on left", what with having been a member in good standing, once upon a time.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> do these same issues recur in all tight-knit, culturally conservative and poverty-stricken communities? yes - to a degree...



The above constructs these crimes purely as an artefact of reaction and poverty. Don't be a dummy.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 16, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Shaun Wright gone.


And I trust/hope that he's unemployable.


----------



## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> dishonest, fuck off. it's literally all there word for word for you. what details are vague? do you agree that non-Muslim girls who wear short skirts are universally prostitutes and whores? do you believe that decent girls need to be brought up under the constant supervision of their patriarch, who should intervene in all of their personal affairs from a young age to ensure they live a wholesome life and are married off to a decent sort? do you believe domestic abuse regulated by scriptural precedent is justified - in moderation - to prevent your wife and children from making incorrect life decisions? do you believe that certain forms of profession are 'ungainly' for a woman, who must primarily live for housework and children and to honour her husband - and that women who take on professions dishonour their families? these are all lessons to take away from an average North West Pakistani mosque.
> 
> in some more extreme cases, do you agree that for your daughter to live a wholesome life she should educated in a private madrassa rather than state school - where she will not even be taught how to properly read, as age 12 she will be sent on a holiday back to Pakistan where she'll get married off to some respectable tribal personality from you ancestor's locality? my home town, Chorley, has a private madrassa - i've been in it, whilst trying to set up a Stop the War branch with the Mosque. the children are gender segregated (naturally) and taught, amongst other things, that polyphonic music is evil alongside everything listed above.
> 
> if there's one thing i'm not guilty of on this thread it's concealing my views. your attempt to smear me with that brush is the absolute height of disingenuousness.


so, basically, your view can be summarised as 'these paki's need to sort their shit out'


----------



## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

and your views can be summarised as 'i agree with forced marriage'


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## likesfish (Sep 16, 2014)

It is part of the problem.
 Not the whole story of swarthy pathans luring innocent white girls to their doom
 Not matter how swarthy and whiley they couldnt have got away with it without staggering incompetance/apathy and or corruption


----------



## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> and your views can be summarised as 'i agree with forced marriage'


I can show you where you have made the argument I claim for you.  You cant show me where I have made the argument you have claimed for me.

You were shit at arguing when the SWP handed you a pre-made argument, and you're even worse at it now.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

raking back the muck from when i was a 17 year old swappie belboid - from the arguments you're attributing to me that was at a most generous estimate 5 years ago (when i first left the party). you're one to talk about weak-ass arguments. how about you answer things i'm saying here?


----------



## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

and yes btw, my argument OPENLY and ALL ALONG has been that there are certain facets of prevailing culture within Pakistani communities which need to change. you seem to disagree with that, which is why you agree with forced marriage.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> the problem is two sets of social values which are incompatible, and one set needs to win out over the other.



Even my old schooldays mate Brainy Steve, legendary for the amount of Thixofix he could huff through, would never make a statement that stupid, and he had the excuse for stupidity of murdering millions of his own braincells every day.
This isn't merely about clashing sets of social values. It's about there being "room" in the criminal justice and social services systems for such crimes to be committed in the first place, and for all you tout "1400 victims in Rotherham alone", the only reason that you're able to do so in the first place is because of the appalling attitudes of the criminal justice system and social care systems toward working class children. Attitudes that have existed far longer than Pakistani communities have in Britain.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Even my old schooldays mate Brainy Steve, legendary for the amount of Thixofix he could huff through, would never make a statement that stupid, and he had the excuse for stupidity of murdering millions of his own braincells every day.
> This isn't merely about clashing sets of social values. It's about there being "room" in the criminal justice and social services systems for such crimes to be committed in the first place, and for all you tout "1400 victims in Rotherham alone", the only reason that you're able to do so in the first place is because of the appalling attitudes of the criminal justice system and social care systems toward working class children. Attitudes that have existed far longer than Pakistani communities have in Britain.



it's about lots of things all mashed together! the criminal justice system being one component part, which most of the left seems determined to focus upon at the expense of everything else.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

The39thStep said:


> Good post this but need to add a bit.
> 
> An office hours culture in children's services in which every thing can wait until the next morning or Monday morning , staffing levels so low in kids homes ( whether private or council) mean that staff cannot leave the home , emergency social service teams that operate only by phone. These means that after five o clock the police are the only service responsible for vulnerable kids.



Scary in and of itself.



> The logical direction of travel is a round the clock integrated co located service that focuses on vulnerability .



I live in hope.  I'm not holding my breath, though, because I'm fairly sure that even after the "abuse crisis" of the last half-decade or so, there won't be any extra money to provide such an integrated service. After all, what's a working class life worth these days?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> the problem is two sets of social values which are incompatible, and one set needs to win out over the other.


So the social values of the Pakistani communities these men came from led to their becoming abusers? What about the social values of the non-Pakistani communities? What did they learn from the way the girls were ignored, told to go away, accused of lying, and generally treated like sub-human scum by various people charged with looking after them? Whose social values are at fault here, and in what proportion? These men did not exist in isolation from wider society.


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> and yes btw, my argument OPENLY and ALL ALONG has been that there are certain facets of prevailing culture within Pakistani communities which need to change. you seem to disagree with that, which is why you agree with forced marriage.


I haven't commented on that. But to do so....

Your comments are astoundingly crude (shock horror). From the actions of an unknown number of men - only some of whom are of Pakistani heritage - you have chosen to tar an entire community. You have chosen to follow the EDL etc in saying the key factor here is Pakistani prevailing culture, and have chosen to ignore all the other factors involved.

I have said quite clearly that I think this is a problem of: night-time economy workers; statutory agencies not caring about the victims (thus giving the criminals a free go, and allowing them to think they can get away with it); and all male environments.  Those three things combine to make a toxic environment.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> it's about lots of things all mashed together! the criminal justice system being one component part, which most of the left seems determined to focus upon at the expense of everything else.



Because without altering the way in which criminal justice and social care address such issues, space is left (as it always has been) for this shit to happen again, to someone(s) else, by another group of abusers. Close the loopholes and break the prejudices inherent to the system, and the sex offenders would have no room to groom in the first place, because the victims would have been believed, and their complaints acted on - your grooming gangs wouldn't be able to come about in the first place, just as (to reiterate what I said earlier) their historical equivalents the Maltese ponces and black pimps wouldn't.


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> and for all you tout "1400 victims in Rotherham alone", the only reason that you're able to do so in the first place is because of the appalling attitudes of the criminal justice system and social care systems toward working class children. Attitudes that have existed far longer than Pakistani communities have in Britain.


indeed. The thing about the figure of 1400 over 17 years, is that it is probably about the same figure (per capita) in most big towns and cities - no matter what there racial make up. The difference is that there hasn't been an investigation and cover up in other places.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

yardbird said:


> And I trust/hope that he's unemployable.



His "CV" is out there on the web now. Nothing short of a name-change is going to see him in a responsible position ever again, hopefully.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

belboid said:


> indeed. The thing about the figure of 1400 over 17 years, is that it is probably about the same figure (per capita) in most big towns and cities - no matter what there racial make up. The difference is that there hasn't been an investigation and cover up in other places.



And I'd posit that one reason there hasn't been investigations and cover-ups is because the institutional attitudes to such offences, especially at the mid and upper levels of such institutions, don't see the victims as valuable enough to make a fuss over. 
As I said earlier, this has all happened before, and each panic gets forgotten, until the next one. I'm sure Das Uberdog has half a point when blaming culture, but it needs to be remembered that child abuse *is not* normalised in Pakistani culture, and that these abusers have had to manipulate and take advantage of the more reactionary elements of Pakistani culture (as opposed to British Pakistani culture) to provide a screen for criminal action. By doing so - by manipulating reactionary elements of culture, and by playing on the fears and prejudices of their own community - it's *they* that are criminal, not their culture in general.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

belboid said:


> indeed. The thing about the figure of 1400 over 17 years, is that it is probably about the same figure (per capita) in most big towns and cities - no matter what there racial make up. The difference is that there hasn't been an investigation and cover up in other places.


It's a big number, but it is believed that one taxi driver, John Worboys (not Pakistani), may have attacked hundreds on his own. A taxi driver preying on vulnerable women. What were the social values of his community that led him to do it?


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So the social values of the Pakistani communities these men came from led to their becoming abusers?



The reality being that like most abusers, they took advantage of community values and mores, and manipulated them for their own ends. In effect, they groomed their communities to respond in a particular way, just as paedos groom the parents of their target, as well as the victim themselves.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> The reality being that like most abusers, they took advantage of community values and mores, and manipulated them for their own ends. In effect, they groomed their communities to respond in a particular way, just as paedos groom the parents of their target, as well as the victim themselves.


Ah, now here we get somewhere. The men have agency. They know they are doing wrong, that they are transgressing. So they manipulate those around them to keep their secret. Like Worboys and thousands of other abusers before them, they acted in this way despite it being contrary to the wider social values of the various groups they belonged to.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So the social values of the Pakistani communities these men came from led to their becoming abusers? What about the social values of the non-Pakistani communities? What did they learn from the way the girls were ignored, told to go away, accused of lying, and generally treated like sub-human scum by various people charged with looking after them? Whose social values are at fault here, and in what proportion? These men did not exist in isolation from wider society.



i believe that there is an unignorable element of 'culture' in the specific nature of how these grooming networks were formed and able to function on the scale that they did - yes. which is why the same thing was repeated across so many towns all with so many similar facets. but still, the absence to take something seriously is a different scale of wrong from seeing a situation where you know someone won't be taken seriously, and exploiting that. the crime of negligence over active abuse - both are connected but i just find it bizarre how the left in general is capable of entirely ignoring one side of it.



belboid said:


> Your comments are astoundingly crude (shock horror). From the actions of an unknown number of men - *only some of whom are of Pakistani heritage* - you have chosen to tar an entire community. You have chosen to follow the EDL etc in saying the key factor here is Pakistani prevailing culture, and have chosen to ignore all the other factors involved.



the vast majority of those we know about were Pakistani, and as the report from Rotherham _repeatedly_ makes clear it was a mistake on behalf of the authorities not to see the network as an issue coming from the Pakistani community in the town. i'm not 'following the EDL' in this regard at all, because i don't follow any of their conclusions; i don't believe in their bogus myths about 'English Culture', i don't agree with their policies of mob violence to subdue a minority culture, i don't believe in advancing a 'hard nose' attitude from government which would include cracking down on civil liberties or French style assimilation policies to try and wipe out a culture, i don't believe in any of those things. i believe in having a left which is totally intolerant of bullshit conservative values and morality, calls them out for what they are when they lead to or tolerate despicable behaviour, whilst at the same time arguing for a unity of all people on a secular, progressive working class culture as the antidote (rather than recriminations). the first step towards that is not ignoring when culture does play a role in creating social crises between ethnic groups.



> I have said quite clearly that I think this is a problem of: night-time economy workers; statutory agencies not caring about the victims (thus giving the criminals a free go, and allowing them to think they can get away with it); and all male environments.  Those three things combine to make a toxic environment.



all of these finessed criticisms of the police and authorities are obviously correct - but they stand in this thread totally and utterly divorced from all of the other factors involved. there is a toxic environment brewing between Pakistani and non-Pakistani communities all over the North of England, it has been for decades now, and its fuelled by a total cultural disconnect in which the majority 'gentile' population are not _completely_ in the wrong... which is a fact the left continue to ignore again and again, seeking to portray migrant communities as no more than victims of circumstance. the horrible reality is that both communities have legitimate grievances against the other - stretching back decades - and ignoring the reality of these grievances and constantly trying to avoid talking about it _is not helping anything_.




			
				ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> The reality being that like most abusers, they took advantage of community values and mores, and manipulated them for their own ends. In effect, they groomed their communities to respond in a particular way, just as paedos groom the parents of their target, as well as the victim themselves.



i completely agree with this statement - but it also has to be said that some of the prevailing values are there to be manipulated. as in, it takes fewer contortions from the normative values of a society who believe that not being a strict muslim is equivalent to being a prostitute to get to a dehumanising attitude towards non-muslim women, as opposed to a social norm which doesn't automatically place judgement on an individual from their particular religious upbringing. just as one example.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i completely agree with this statement - but it also has to be said that some of the prevailing values are there to be manipulated. as in, it takes fewer contortions from the normative values of a society who believe that not being a strict muslim is equivalent to being a prostitute to get to a dehumanising attitude towards non-muslim women, as opposed to a social norm which doesn't automatically place judgement on an individual from their particular religious upbringing. just as one example.


I think you're off the mark with this. I think you're forgetting the abuse suffered by Pakistani girls who are kept quiet about it in other ways - societal norms making them feel shame at having been abused and keeping them quiet.

This article puts it quite well, I think:



> The UK Muslim Women’s Network published a report in September 2013 that looked into cases of sexual exploitation of Asian girls and women. It highlighted that they were most vulnerable to men from their own communities who were conscious of cultural norms, using them to manipulate victims into not reporting their abuse.



http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ual-abuse-vulnerable-girls-muslim-communities

Yes, there are problems with British Pakistani societal attitudes, but I don't think the problems are quite what you think they are. In particular, I think the idea that the men's culture led them to dehumanise non-Muslims is overstated, if not outright wrong.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.


Ok, but what is it about the girls that made them targets? Their race, their religion, or their vulnerability? I suggest that it is this last, their vulnerability, that is overwhelmingly the factor in their being chosen.


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.


You're a right mess of contradictory tosh. You have to keep twisting things to support your initial argument - that Pakistani culture causes such behaviour. Even tho such behaviour has been witnessed in many other cultures, and even tho it is a tiny minority of Pakistani (and other) men behaving in such a way, and even tho it isn't wholly or solely non-Pakistani girls targetted. You are so determined to blame Pakistanis that you are blind to everything else that is happening, and causing this situation.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

belboid said:


> You're a right mess of contradictory tosh. You have to keep twisting things to support your initial argument - that Pakistani culture causes such behaviour. Even tho such behaviour has been witnessed in many other cultures, and even tho it is a tiny minority of Pakistani (and other) men behaving in such a way, and even tho it isn't wholly or solely non-Pakistani girls targetted. You are so determined to blame Pakistanis that you are blind to everything else that is happening, and causing this situation.



'twisting things to support my argument' - what, you don't like the fact that i've stuck to my point throughout the whole thread? desperation belboid, that's what's characterizing your last spate of posts. deflections about arguments i made on these boards when i was 17, gross mis-readings and oversimplifications, crude attempts to bait me into waxing off lyrical by myself in the hope i'd give you some rope to hang me with... and now you're attacking me for having a consistent argument.



littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok, but what is it about the girls that made them targets? Their race, their religion, or their vulnerability? I suggest that it is this last, their vulnerability, that is overwhelmingly the factor in their being chosen.



i agree with you again - but it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier)... the fact that Pakistanis contribute to 2/3s of the cases of known domestic abuse of Asian women also, from your own study, would further suggest to me entrenched cultural values which spill out in the fringes into varied forms of misogynistic and abusive behaviour.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> 't it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier).


This is a little different, though. It might help explain how they got away with it for so long, but does it say anything about why they did it? I'm not sure it does.


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> 'twisting things to support my argument' - what, you don't like the fact that i've stuck to my point throughout the whole thread? desperation belboid, that's what's characterizing your last spate of posts. deflections about arguments i made on these boards when i was 17, gross mis-readings and oversimplifications, crude attempts to bait me into waxing off lyrical by myself in the hope i'd give you some rope to hang me with... and *now you're attacking me for having a consistent argument.*


no, I'm having a go at you for being all over the shop, thats why I said 'you're a right mess of contradictory tosh' - ie the very opposite of being consistent.  Learn to fucking read.



> i agree with you again - but it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier)... the fact that Pakistanis contribute to 2/3s of the cases of known domestic abuse of Asian women also, from your own study, would further suggest to me entrenched cultural values which spill out in the fringes into varied forms of misogynistic and abusive behaviour.


lol, what an idiotic comment. Of course Pakistanis contribute about 2/3 of DA against Asian women. Because about 2/3 of Asian women are married to Pakistani men!  That's absolutely nothing to do with Pakistani culture, any more than the fact that most white british DA victims are attacked by white British men.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

no, Pakistanis make up 1.9% of the UK population - the 'Asian' population makes up 5% of the total population. Pakistanis are therefore over-represented by almost 1/3

edit: in fact, it's worse. the Asian population makes up almost 7% of the UK population (2011) and the Pakistani population amounts to 1.82%.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, Pakistanis make up 1.9% of the UK population - the 'Asian' population makes up 5% of the total population. Pakistanis are therefore over-represented by almost 1/3


Ok, that is a change in the argument, though. Pakistani culture may breed a disturbing number of men who abuse women. But the conjecture that some Pakistani men pick on non-Muslims because they see them as 'whores' due to their culture - is that supported by the numbers? I don't think it is.

As for _Islam_ somehow being part of the problem, what are the figures among British Bangladeshis?


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok, that is a change in the argument, though. Pakistani culture may breed a disturbing number of men who abuse women. But the conjecture that some Pakistani men pick on non-Muslims because they see them as 'whores' due to their culture - is that supported by the numbers? I don't think it is.
> 
> As for _Islam_ somehow being part of the problem, what are the figures among British Bangladeshis?



i think they're congruent arguments, not the same by any means but one may well support the other. there appears to be something culturally related in the case of the specific grooming gangs we are discussing, as the victims appear to be almost universally non-muslim. that other forms of abuse also occur within the community elsewhere i think is testament to the malleability of patriarchal values into different strands.

personally, i wouldn't argue that _Islam_ in general is the problem, as there are many Islamic communities who - whilst displaying more conservative values than the norm - can't in any way be statistically linked with spikes in these kinds of activities. the majority of Arab communities, for example - or Persian. for the record, Bangladeshis make up 0.71% of the UK population.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> there appears to be something culturally related in the case of the specific grooming gangs we are discussing, as the victims appear to be almost universally non-muslim.


I don't think so. Not unless there is evidence that the men refrained from abusing Muslim girls who were in care and fell into their hands. The almost all non-Muslim nature of the victims is a reflection of the ethnic make-up of girls in care in the area, no?


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 16, 2014)

i think that's definitely a factor, but from the report only 1/3 of the girls involved in Rotherham came from care (iirc) which still leaves a good 2/3s from elsewhere. it suggests to me there is a case of cultural profiling.


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## nino_savatte (Sep 16, 2014)

A Christian grooming gang? One could argue that paedophilia was an integral part of this _white_ gang's culture. One question I would like to ask those who see Rotherham as exemplary of 'Pakistani male culture' is this: was the crime in Rotherham worse because it involved the abuse of girls rather than boys?

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co....o_church_choir_jailed_for_years_of_sex_abuse/


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## belboid (Sep 16, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> no, Pakistanis make up 1.9% of the UK population - the 'Asian' population makes up 5% of the total population. Pakistanis are therefore over-represented by almost 1/3
> 
> edit: in fact, it's worse. the Asian population makes up almost 7% of the UK population (2011) and the Pakistani population amounts to 1.82%.


you havent actually read the report, or paid it any close attention, have you?  It isnt talking about Asian girls and young women in general (despite its title) its looking specifically at 'Asian-Muslim' young women. It states specifically that it is talking about girls and young women from:

An Asian ethnic background (e.g. Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Afghani), who may or may not be of the Muslim faith; and / or A Muslim background who could be from any ethnic group.

So it's hardly surprising it is largely men of Pakistani heritage who are the abusers.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i appreciate you taking me up on this, but i'm not forgetting that... there is widespread abuse within the community too. but that's not what has been specifically associated with these grooming gangs, systematically collecting new girls to be processed through the network and passed around.



One thing I don't believe these cunts can be accused of is acting systematically.  One of the factors that militated against them being caught, even if the police and social services had been less supine, is that they weren't systematic in targeting victims - they didn't stick to a single "racial" or "social" type, and as Jay makes clear, some of their targets told them to fuck off, and walked away unharmed.
I think you're reading, for whatever reason, a logic into this abuse that doesn't actually exist, or if it does, is a factor far subordinbate to the undoubted primary factor - that these offenders were opportunists who were in situations where they could exercise opportunism: The night-time economy.  While some may have located themselves in that economy purely to further a penchant for child abuse, I'd strongly suspect that, as with a significant minority of other child sex abusers, they abused because the opportunity for sex was there, and wouldn't have actively sought it out. In any "gang" situation, there are *always* leaders and followers, with all the social dynamics that follow from that.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok, but what is it about the girls that made them targets? Their race, their religion, or their vulnerability? I suggest that it is this last, their vulnerability, that is overwhelmingly the factor in their being chosen.


In most long-term abuse situations, child or no, vulnerability (either taken advantage of, or manufactured) is usually a primary factor, whether the vulnerability is social or physical.  In terms of race and religion, with these "grooming gangs", those appear to be secondary concerns "bolted on" to the practice of abuse by the abusers after the event, along the lines of "it's alright to do this to these white bitches because they're worse than animals". Classic dehumanisation, as adopted by many individuals and many cultures to excuse their oppression of other individuals and other cultures. If, of course, the cultural justification was primary, then there would be a vanishingly-small or non-existent incidence of these men preying on females in their own communities. This *isn't* the case.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2014)

belboid said:


> so, basically, your view can be summarised as 'these paki's need to sort their shit out'





Das Uberdog said:


> and your views can be summarised as 'i agree with forced marriage'



You're both reducing some very important issues to a series of straw men.

Belboid is conflating an objection to certain (highly objectionable) cultural practices found in certain sections of the British Pakistani community with a racist dislike for that community as a whole. On the contrary if somebody didn't give a shit about Pakistani people then surely they wouldn't care about young Pakistani women being forced to marry creepy old men they've never met, or if they were subject to endemic domestic violence?

The truly racist attitude in this situation would be to ignore these problems on the grounds that those women who are being abused aren't worth bothering with and to assume that the situation can't be helped anyway because it's somehow inherent to the nature of both perpetrator and victim. It's not, it's a result of certain self-perpetuating cultural values and practices for which attitudes towards immigrant communities in the UK from the wider population must be seen as partly responsible. These attitudes and abuses can be changed, just like attitudes towards women in western societies has been dragged kicking and screaming in the direction of decency and fairness in recent decades.

As for Das Uberdog, he appears to be making the equally dodgy leap from, "some people within this community do x" to, "people in this community do x" which is clearly not the case. For a start it assumes that there even is a homogenous 'British Pakistani community' in the sense of a bunch of people who all go down the bingo together to gossip and plot. This does a great disservice to Pakistani people who wouldn't think of forcing their daughters to marry anyone, much less of cruising around at night looking for vulnerable teenage girls. If attitudes to women are to be improved then this cannot simply be imposed from the outside by hand-wringing white people, it will require British Pakistanis who oppose cruel practices to take a stand against them. And I'm sure many people are already doing exactly that.

It's a lot easier to punish bad behaviour than to encourage good behaviour. It takes a lot more work, a lot more time and a lot more understanding. Which is not to say the perpetrators of this crime shouldn't be punished. We should not mistake an understanding of the root causes of this abuse for excuses, there can be no excuse. But the perpetrators are individuals with names and addresses, it is not an entire community or ethnic group that has done these things. If we try to blame Pakistanis in general then we deny those Pakistani people who must surely be sickened and outraged by what has been done the agency to help make sure it doesn't keep happening.

It's clear from this thread that people have vastly different experiences of British Pakistani culture. This is only to be expected, we're talking about millions of people across the country and the Pakistani people you know, work with or live alongside will only be a tiny fraction of that huge and diverse group of people. So when it comes to understanding British Pakistani culture, the problems within it and the ways in which progress can be made the best people for the job are Pakistanis themselves. The first and most important thing we can do to help is not to tar them all with the same brush.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i agree with you again - but it still seems clear that there are certain patriarchal values embedded within that culture which are capable of manipulation (as VP said earlier)... the fact that Pakistanis contribute to 2/3s of the cases of known domestic abuse of Asian women also, from your own study, would further suggest to me entrenched cultural values which spill out in the fringes into varied forms of misogynistic and abusive behaviour.



Patriarchy is embedded in every culture. What pertains in Rotherham and other centres of abuse by members of the British Pakistani community is an *exploitation* of particular circumstances including patriarchal custom. What it isn't, is an acting out of extant cultural custom.

I also believe that conflating child sexual abuse and domestic abuse is fatuous - most justification for DV comes from custom, and means that those who practice it can be educated out of it.  Child sex abuse is a choice, not a cultural custom, and therefore isn't amenable to education.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is a little different, though. It might help explain how they got away with it for so long, but does it say anything about why they did it? I'm not sure it does.



As I've said previously on other threads, while there are a minority of paedophiles who have a compulsion to commit such offences, they are a minority, and are usually childhood victims of neglect and abuse themselves, so are to an extent driven by impulses beyond their own ability to understand.  With a majority the crime is opportunist (although also assisted/facilitated by gendered and culturally-based assumptions), and with regard to child abuse, often once the abuser has abused one child, they realise just how relatively-malleable and manipulable such victims are, compared to adult women.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> I also believe that conflating child sexual abuse and domestic abuse is fatuous - most justification for DV comes from custom, and means that those who practice it can be educated out of it.  Child sex abuse is a choice, not a cultural custom, and therefore isn't amenable to education.



And you don't think a set of customs which justify domestic abuse of women could lead to contempt for, and mistreatment of women in general?


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## hot air baboon (Sep 17, 2014)

....I think Uberdog is trying to do something which is basically unprovable & ascribe motivations to people we don't know and can't look inside the heads of....in a way that is clearly not welcomed by most posters here, which is fair enough ..why I ducked out....although we can seemingly contemplate and read-in racial bigotry on the part of the police & authorities as feeding into their dismissive attitudes towards the CSE victims : -

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/28/rotherham-abuse-class-sex-racial-bigotry

....apparently the perpetrators are such cherubs.....such choirboys....that such attitudes on their part are clearly unthinkable !? 

...I tend to agree with him & am convinvced that the gross over-sexualisation of young girls & mainstreaming of porn in MSM  ( obv of a mainly white complexion ) is hugely culpable in fostering the misogynistic view  towards the girls that he is describing....



....I don't think this article has ever been posted....



> Asian grooming: why we need to talk about sex
> 
> 
> Special Report day two: Our investigation into the background to the Rochdale child abuse ring concludes by exploring its cultural and religious implications
> ...


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## hot air baboon (Sep 17, 2014)

continued....



> But generally condemnation from religious and community leaders in the Asian community has been slowly growing over the past two years as a succession of cases has reached the courts in which men from the Asian community have been convicted of crimes involving the sexual exploitation of underage girls.
> 
> Expressions of shame, however, have outnumbered attempts at analysing whether there are specific qualities in ethnic minority culture which nurture the attitudes from which abuse springs.
> 
> ...


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> And you don't think a set of customs which justify domestic abuse of women could lead to contempt for, and mistreatment of women in general?



I'm saying that we shouldn't draw the conclusion that because a culture includes cultural provisos that facilitate patriarchal oppression of females, we shouldn't see it as directly linked to child abuse.  Child abuse, apart from anything else, has always been more of a "minority pursuit" among cultures than DV is. If the one fed into the other in any drect way, we could expect stats for intrafamilial sexual abuse to be higher in families where intrafamilial DV took place, yet that isn't the case in any community - there's no direct correlation between DV and child abuse.


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## Das Uberdog (Sep 18, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:
			
		

> As for Das Uberdog, he appears to be making the equally dodgy leap from, "some people within this community do x" to, "people in this community do x" which is clearly not the case. For a start it assumes that there even is a homogenous 'British Pakistani community' in the sense of a bunch of people who all go down the bingo together to gossip and plot.



i don't want to give the impression, just because i'm arguing against one extremity (that Pakistani culture plays absolutely no part in what has occurred with these grooming gangs) that i am arguing the other; that all Pakistanis are complicit in grooming gangs. that is expressly not my opinion, but i do believe that the prevailing culture has facilitated recent events. the article hot air baboon posts above is quite measured i think - and addresses lots of those questions from the perspective of an imam presumably with extensive knowledge of that community. my reaction on this thread was against lefties who are totally unwilling to even engage on the question, and instead reserve the entirety of their response onto criticizing the authorities (who obviously, also need criticizing).

this isn't me trying to 'blame Pakistanis' _in general, _though i am trying to lay some blame at the feet of particular cultural values which are prevalent in that community (values which, in most cases do not lead to child abuse but which i believe can be congruent with it).

and, to an extent, the Pakistani community does exist as a much more homogeneous entity than many of cultures - it has a centre of power, the Mosque, with an established social hierarchy, decision-makers, etc... everyone knows eachother's business and family/personal/business interests are all mediated through the Mosque. to this extent, if there are values which are being propagated which encourage an inhumane view of women or non-muslim girls, there are actually social structures through which this could be systematically challenged.




			
				ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> One thing I don't believe these cunts can be accused of is acting systematically. One of the factors that militated against them being caught, even if the police and social services had been less supine, is that they weren't systematic in targeting victims - they didn't stick to a single "racial" or "social" type, and as Jay makes clear, some of their targets told them to fuck off, and walked away unharmed.



i disagree, i think it's totally fair to describe these gangs as systematic. you don't ratchet up 1,400 victims like this without an established processing system... it seems like when new victims were chosen, there are a fairly well established channel and route through which they were integrated into the gang and then shared around. seems pretty 'systematic' to me.



> Patriarchy is embedded in every culture. What pertains in Rotherham and other centres of abuse by members of the British Pakistani community is an *exploitation* of particular circumstances including patriarchal custom. What it isn't, is an acting out of extant cultural custom.



i find it easy to agree with this statement, and don't think it lies in contradiction with my argument - for the reason that, even if the custom is being exploited, it lends itself to exploitation due to its predication in intolerance towards towards other people or cultures.


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## likesfish (Sep 18, 2014)

biradiri can and is massively abused By cunts


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## belboid (Sep 18, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Belboid is conflating an objection to certain (highly objectionable) cultural practices found in certain sections of the British Pakistani community with a racist dislike for that community as a whole.


No, its the claim that such attitude are unique, or particular, to one community that is the problem for me.  That and the claim that such communities are (largely) homogenous, and so such attitudes are held throughout those societies. 

Obviously, particular practises need condemning and opposing, but they will not be if you are saying its a common cultural thing. It is a common _male_ thing that is practised in slightly different forms in different cultures, but the bottom line is the same in all of them. Attacking just one particular form of vile practise in such a scattergun way not only lets lots of other people off the hook, but it will mean that the communities being attacked (and it is the whole community, not just the actual perpetrators) becomes more defensive and less willing to adapt at all.  It's a countr-productive way of working.



> On the contrary if somebody didn't give a shit about Pakistani people then surely they wouldn't care about young Pakistani women being forced to marry creepy old men they've never met, or if they were subject to endemic domestic violence?


hmm, I'm not really convinced by this. It's a useful stick with which to beat someone.  It's disingenuous, but bigots usually are! The BNP and EDL both go on about how Islam is appaling to women and gays, but that's not actually because they give a shi about women or gays, is it?


----------



## belboid (Sep 18, 2014)

Das Uberdog said:


> i don't want to give the impression, just because i'm arguing against one extremity (that Pakistani culture plays absolutely no part in what has occurred with these grooming gangs) that i am arguing the other; that all Pakistanis are complicit in grooming gangs. that is expressly not my opinion, but i do believe that the prevailing culture has facilitated recent events. the article hot air baboon posts above is quite measured i think - and addresses lots of those questions from the perspective of an imam presumably with extensive knowledge of that community. my reaction on this thread was against lefties who are totally unwilling to even engage on the question, and instead reserve the entirety of their response onto criticizing the authorities (who obviously, also need criticizing).
> 
> this isn't me trying to 'blame Pakistanis' _in general, _though i am trying to lay some blame at the feet of particular cultural values which are prevalent in that community (values which, in most cases do not lead to child abuse but which i believe can be congruent with it).
> 
> and, to an extent, the Pakistani community does exist as a much more homogeneous entity than many of cultures - it has a centre of power, the Mosque, with an established social hierarchy, decision-makers, etc... everyone knows eachother's business and family/personal/business interests are all mediated through the Mosque. to this extent, if there are values which are being propagated which encourage an inhumane view of women or non-muslim girls, there are actually social structures through which this could be systematically challenged.


Yup, just like the Catholic church.  All catholics think just alike, are all homogenous.  You say you dont blame all muslims, but then a moment later, do blame (nearly) all muslims. Your whole reading of this tragedy is astoundingly superficial and based on nothing more than headlines, as evidenced by your statement:



Das Uberdog said:


> i think it's totally fair to describe these gangs as systematic. you don't ratchet up 1,400 victims like this without an established processing system.


as if all 1400 girls were abused by one great big gang.  They weren't. Lots of the men had no contact with each other.  There seems to have been several different gangs - based around a couple of particular firms, with a disturbing amount of people involved.  And, as I've said before, if you think the figures aren't similar in every major city, then you're very much mistaken.


----------



## 1%er (Sep 19, 2014)

There are 3 youtube videos on this links below from the Home Affairs Select Committee 9th Sept 14 (Interestingly all witnesses were put under oath so were subject to charges of perjury if they fail to tell the truth)

The current Chief Constable David Crompton QPM, and former Chief Constable Meredydd John Hughes CBE QPM, South Yorkshire Police.

Joyce Thacker OBE, Strategic Director for Children, Young People and Families, Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council, and Rotherham Council’s chief executive Martin Kimber.

Shaun Wright, South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner.


Edited to add:
This former and current Chief Constable's are a joke, all they basically said was "I know nothing" and the chair of the committee seemed to think that the former should be charged with dereliction of duty (failed to act properly) and they find his evidence to the committee unsatisfactory.


----------



## Dr_Herbz (Sep 19, 2014)

1%er said:


> There are 3 youtube videos on this links below from the Home Affairs Select Committee 9th Sept 14 (Interestingly all witnesses were put under oath so were subject to charges of perjury if they fail to tell the truth)
> 
> The current Chief Constable David Crompton QPM, and former Chief Constable Meredydd John Hughes CBE QPM, South Yorkshire Police.
> 
> ...



Cops in "I don't recall" shocker!

Cops lying under oath shocker!

Those videos sum up how corrupt the police force is, and why all of those self serving cunts should be hung from lamp posts.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 19, 2014)

1%er said:


> There are 3 youtube videos on this links below from the Home Affairs Select Committee 9th Sept 14


The only interesting session imo was that first one with the Police, largely because a few facts about the current situation emerged. The Kimber/Thacker session was almost entirely about the vile Vaz trying to get a token scalp and Shaun Wright just gave another public 'masterclass' in 'old labour' intransigence (which ultimately got him nowhere of course).

There was a more interesting session with Kimber and Thacker the following day (10th) in front of the Communities and Local Government Committee. Less grandstanding and more effective questioning left Thacker's position thoroughly undermined.
It's on the parliamenttv website (you need to install the Silverlight plugin for your browser)
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=15997

Sadly the full public PCC Panel session where Wright was told in no uncertain terms what people thought of him is not online afaik. The fragments shown on the news suggested that a lot more anger was being directed at him (and by implication the Police) than there had been at the Council Cabinet at their meeting the week before.

Thacker is now on 'indefinite sick leave'.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...children-s-boss-joyce-thacker-quits-1-6847899

ETA: updated Yorkshire Post link


----------



## belboid (Sep 19, 2014)

She's quit now. 

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638


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## likesfish (Sep 20, 2014)

Well thats good and went with less fuss than the odious cunt wright 
http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham
 Dont read it if your feeling depressed lists all the faults and there were many.
 States people didn't want to know or admit the gangs were pakistani men.
 Council corrupt
Social services understaffed underfunded with some complete and utter cunts in mangement bullied and disciplined anyone who pointed what the fuck was going on and betrayed at least one victimn to the gangs
  Police were fucking useless


----------



## Dillinger4 (Sep 22, 2014)

Almost certainly not related, but:



> Dog walker finds human leg near Rochdale
> Police begin hunt for more remains after body part discovered on land behind Healey Conservative Club in Whitworth
> 
> A dog walker has found a human leg, sparking a police hunt for other body parts. Lancashire police said the adult leg was discovered on land behind Healey Conservative Club in Whitworth, near Rochdale, Greater Manchester, this afternoon.
> ...



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/sep/21/dog-walker-finds-human-leg


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 22, 2014)

I always get Rotheram and Rochdale mixed up too. It doesn't help that both towns have become famous for child abuse on a large scale.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 22, 2014)

‘Disgust’ in Rotherham over anti-Islam comments on police Facebook page

Included in the story :


> It comes as Assistant Chief Constable Ingrid Lee promised Rotherham’s three MPs it would deliver an update on its investigation into child sexual exploitation prosecutions this week.
> 
> John Healey, Sarah Champion and Kevin Barron, have demanded answers over when details of two inquiries into historic child abuse allegations and cases announced by the disgraced former Police and Crime Commissioner Shaun Wright in August last year will be published.





> The trio asked for confirmation of the number of suspects being investigated, details of charges and convictions, figures on abduction notices and for the inquiry into police’s past failings to be overseen by the Independent Police Complaints Commission or National Crime Agency.
> 
> They are also seeking information on action being taken to tackle under-reporting of sexual exploitation by boys and Asian girls, a concern raised in the report.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 22, 2014)

Sheffield Star quotes a response from the  police with figures for current investigations :


> Police are investigating 18 potential suspects over the alleged abuse of almost 300 children in Rotherham during the period covered by the Jay report, it has been revealed.
> 
> Two separate ‘very large’ investigations are being carried out by South Yorkshire Police into offences against 283 victims that are said to have happened within the timeframe covered by the independent inquiry report.





> Police have also revealed they are currently running 48 live child sexual exploitation inquiries in Rotherham, nine of which fall into the period covered by the Jay report, 1997 to 2013.


http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...se-of-almost-300-rotherham-children-1-6854232
(I think this largely repeats information given to the Home Affairs Committee).


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 24, 2014)

Joyce Thacker's final quarterly report to the Rotherham Council Cabinet about the Council''s Child Sexual Exploitation Action Plan is on-line in the Agenda Reports Pack pdf linked from this page :

https://moderngov.rotherham.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=415&MId=12957&Ver=4


----------



## AnIdiot (Sep 28, 2014)

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/rotherham-grooming-security-guard-and-victims-interview-091
This makes for such sobering reading. I wonder how many more stories of people who tried to alert the authorities, but were ignored, will come out?


----------



## dylanredefined (Sep 28, 2014)

amster said:


> http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/rotherham-grooming-security-guard-and-victims-interview-091
> This makes for such sobering reading. I wonder how many more stories of people who tried to alert the authorities, but were ignored, will come out?


 We are told the police are rascist  you would think they would have leapt at a chance to convict these gangs?
 They just seem to have written the girls off as not worth it.


----------



## Lurdan (Sep 30, 2014)

Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary report into South Yorkshire Police's current child protection work (following an inspection in May) published today :

Report from here as pdf
HMIC Press Release

It covers the full range of child protection work, not just child sexual exploitation, and all four force areas not just Rotherham. It found examples of good practice but also other things to be concerned about particularly regarding CSE and cases involving adolescents :


> We are concerned that force practice is inconsistent so not all children receive the standard of treatment they deserve. More must be done to improve the care of children in custody. We were also concerned about the lack of understanding of the risk posed by offenders who target vulnerable children, and shortcomings in the protection of children in care.


(...)


> In most of the cases we examined, they were quick to interview suspects and also to take further action to protect children. In 5 of the 16 cases we examined that related to sexual exploitation and missing children, however, officers were slower to follow up action. For example, inspectors saw 2 cases of 13 and 14-year-old girls who were frequent runaways: there was no record of efforts made to look more deeply into their behaviour patterns, the places they frequented or the people they might be meeting. This meant that the risk to these girls remained high for considerable periods of time without appropriate action being taken.


(...)


> Police practice was also weak when assessing and helping adolescent boys and girls. In two of the five cases where children were reported as missing, inspectors assessed police action as inadequate. In one case, staff from a children’s care home reported that three young girls were at the flat of an older man. When officers went to the flat, some 11 hours later, they found the girls. Although officers recorded that a child abduction warning notice should be considered to prevent the man having further contact with the girls, this had not been served one month later.





> In another case, a grandmother reported her 14-year-old grand-daughter missing after she failed to return from school. Police records indicated that the girl had been reported missing from home on 40 previous occasions and she was considered at risk of child sexual exploitation. However, on this occasion, officers recorded on a referral form that the grandmother no longer had any control over her, and other agencies were unable to provide any further help to the family. Inspectors did not see any evidence of a safeguarding plan to protect this vulnerable girl.


(...)


> Inspectors had significant concerns about how well police understood the needs of children in care homes in some areas, most notably in Doncaster. In one case, three young girls had been placed in a children’s care home and police and children’s social care services identified that, together, they were becoming involved in increasingly risky behaviour. A meeting took place with partner agencies and all agreed that the three girls needed to be separated immediately. It took a month for this to happen.





> However, in the interim, the plans that were put in place did not sufficiently protect the girls. During this period, the girls were reported missing on numerous occasions; they were found drunk and under the influence of drugs; they were arrested several times for offences such as criminal damage and assaulting care home staff; they were sexually assaulted by several men; and one was detained in police custody after charge for her ‘own protection’.





> Although officers knew and were concerned that the girls continued to be at risk of child sexual exploitation, they reported a sense of helplessness and did not escalate their concerns to senior officers. There was also insufficient action taken against the men who were exploiting the girls, such as investigating their behaviour, monitoring their activities or identifying other children who might be in contact with them - even though police knew that these men were likely to pose a risk to other children.


(...)


> Police systems for recording incidents are cumbersome and not integrated with each other. Information is not always readily accessible because records are only held by the force for 13 months before being archived. As a result, officers do not always have access to all the information they need to make good decisions.


(...)


> HMIC found some evidence of specialist departments working in relative isolation. For example, a girl assessed as being at low risk went missing for five days. Cases considered to be low risk are given low priority for carrying out search action or investigation. Information about the girl’s circumstances had not been matched with information held elsewhere in the force about her likely contacts. These people were known to the police for their involvement in street crime and use of weapons. If information held by different parts of the force had been linked, the case might have been given a higher risk assessment and managed with greater urgency.


(...)


> HMIC found good examples where police responded well to risks posed by those who sexually exploit children, particularly in Sheffield and Rotherham where there were mature and established partnership arrangements and agencies were co-located. *Responses were less well developed in Barnsley and Doncaster. *


(!!! - my emphases)



> Inspectors looked at 11 cases of children in detention.


(...)


> Two of the girls in our case sample were clearly vulnerable; both were 13, in care, known to go missing and identified as being at risk of sexual exploitation. In one case, the girl, who had been arrested for breaching bail conditions (that she reside at her children’s home), was found at the home of a sex offender with condoms in her possession. There was no record of children’s social care services being notified, her parents being informed or an appropriate adult or solicitor sought. Furthermore, there was no indication of any enquiries about the man in whose home she was found, or any evidence of a risk assessment being completed.



Press coverage :
South Yorkshire police under fire for failing to protect vulnerable children - Guardian
South Yorkshire Police under fire over child protection - Sheffield Star
County’s children still being failed by police - Yorkshire Post (including SYP response)


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 3, 2014)

Hate crime on the rise in wake of child sex abuse scandal in Rotherham - Sheffield Star



> Chief Inspector Richard Butterworth said extra police officers were patrolling the streets and speaking to community representatives to try to establish the extent of the problem.





> “The month prior to the report there were four incidents of racial harassment made, after the report there were 19. The month before the report there were three racially aggravated assault, since the report there have been seven.
> 
> “In several of the cases people have been charged.”





> He said innocent members of the public were ‘enduring racial abuse in the street’ and said a taxi driver was attacked in Wath last weekend.
> 
> “It is completely innocent people being targeted,” he said.


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 7, 2014)

Interesting set of reports on Rotherham and CSE on tonights edition of the BBC magazine programme Inside Out for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. On the BBC iplayer here :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0071mqm


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2014)

Good work by C4 News to get this twunt to talk openly on camera as part of their on-going reporting about Rotherham...

http://bcove.me/ji17b8hd

depressing stuff...


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 9, 2014)

Yeah - saw that last night and felt like crying.


----------



## likesfish (Oct 9, 2014)

Ffs
	 It's the social workers fault
   Nah mate it's who ever thought a 13 yr old would make a good whore you stupid bastard. This wasn't about picking an under age girl up in a club by mistake


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2014)

likesfish said:


> Ffs
> It's the social workers fault
> Nah mate it's who ever thought a 13 yr old would make a good whore you stupid bastard. This wasn't about picking an under age girl up in a club by mistake


Revealing and depressing as it was to listen to this glimpse into the mind-set of those (or those close to) perpetrating the abuse, the interview after the VT with Ann Coffey MP started off by confirming that there was some degree of overlap between the attitudes expressed and those held by the agencies (esp. OB) responsible for child protection.


----------



## dylanredefined (Oct 9, 2014)

Lurdan said:


> Hate crime on the rise in wake of child sex abuse scandal in Rotherham - Sheffield Star



 Cops probably won't do anything about that for 5 years or more as it is not a priority.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 9, 2014)

well we knew that- one case wasn't investigated properly that i can recall because the victim consented, according to the copper. Which as he should know, isn't legally possible. at 14 ffs


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 15, 2014)

Open letter to Chris Grayling from Rotherham survivor :

Rotherham abuse victim writes to Chris Grayling in counselling campaign  - Sheffield Star



> My name is Jessica (not my real name) and I am now 29. I am one of the 1,400 survivors that was groomed in Rotherham.
> 
> In summer 1999, just after my 14th birthday, I met my abuser who had just been released from prison. He was 24, married with two children and known to the authorities as a dangerous man and part of a grooming gang.





> I was abused mentally, sexually and physically for more than two years.
> 
> Just a few days after meeting him my parents contacted the police to press charges. The police refused to act as they said I was consenting to my own abuse.





> I went missing from home and school for days, weeks and months. On those occasions, police found me in hotels, houses, flats, cars and on one occasion caught us both in bed together half naked. They arrested me and he was allowed to walk away without even being questioned.
> 
> I was made pregnant twice by him, firstly when I was 14 and then again when I was 15 and in the care of social services. I first had a termination and then had a son the second time, who is now a teenager.





> Because the authorities refused to arrest my abuser, my parents placed me in care hoping that they would stop the abuse. My foster carer and social worker met my abuser and told him he had to collect me from the top of the street and I had to arrive back for 10pm. He was even allowed to attend appointments with me and went on a holiday to Skegness with me and my foster carers.
> 
> Not only was he sexually abusing me but he was extremely violent towards me and my family. I have lost count of how many times he beat me and tried to kill me.





> He has tried throwing me over a balcony and attacking my son when he was just a few months old, he drove into two parked cars and hit a wall, dragged me to the edge of a cliff and threatened to throw me off, set my flat on fire while me and my son were inside, assaulted my father, smashed my mother’s car up, tried to run over my sister and partner and even when I had a court order against him (because the police wouldn’t act), he had someone outside my flat 24 hours a day until I moved house and I had to stop contact with everyone I knew.





> I had a few years to rebuild my life, with no support or counselling. But he threatened to kill me again in March 2010 and February 2013. Again I rang the police and had to move house. I spoke to the police again in March 2013 and wanted to make a complaint that I was groomed, but again the police didn’t take me seriously.
> 
> It was in my last hope that I contacted Andrew Norfolk of The Times newspaper and hoped if my story was published that the authorities would take things seriously. The police tried to stop the story going to print but failed and it was published in August 2013.





> Even after this the authorities did not believe me and have tried making things very difficult for me. I’ve had social workers just a few months ago telling me because I have made a statement to the police and media that I am putting my children’s lives at risk.
> 
> Despite all of this, I want to raise awareness for victims and survivors like myself to help prevent this happening to anyone else.





> I believe if I had had the correct support and counselling when I was a child it would have helped me and my son have a more stable and structured life.
> 
> I am on the waiting list to receive counselling so I am writing to you to ask you to put more funding into the help and support of abuse victims and if possible help them to build a future.





> I feel stopping sexual abuse of children should be a priority and can only happen if the correct funding and agencies are in place.
> 
> I feel not enough is being done, not just in Rotherham but also around the country. If our authorities are seen to be taking things more seriously more victims will come forward and have faith they will be listened to and helped.




Jessica's abuser has never been arrested in connection with her abuse. Her letter is part of a campaign for proper funding for victim counselling services.

Rotherham abuse victim starts campaign for counselling services funding - Sheffield Star



> Jessica says she hopes organisations such as Rotherham Women’s Counselling Service, which has seven part-time counsellors and two student placements, can be provided with more Government funding.
> 
> The organisation relies on grants to survive, and its funding from the Ministry of Justice due to ended.





> It also received Lottery funding, which runs until 2017, and money from the Police and Crime Commissioner’s office, which is available until March.
> 
> It has no money from the NHS, despite 30 per cent of its referrals coming from the health service.





> Rotherham Council does not fund the organisation, but is due to agree a £20,000 grant for more specialist counselling.
> 
> A Ministry of Justice spokesman said the Government ‘is working’ to increase the money it provides to victims’ services and hopes to double the £50m it spends.




Separately, Rotherham MP Sarah Champion has secured funding to employ a specialist adviser to support Rotherham victims and has appointed Jayne Senior, former head of the Risky Business project.
http://www.sarahchampionmp.com/sarah-appoints-child-sexual-exploitation-specialist-jayne-senior/


----------



## Betsy (Oct 18, 2014)

*Rotherham abuse scandal: MPs want missing files answers*

_An urgent investigation into allegations files relating to the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal went missing has been called for by MPs.


A Home Affairs Select Committee report said a council researcher claimed files detailing failures in tackling abuse were stolen from her office.


The report also calls for new laws to remove failing police commissioners. _

It comes after the Jay report found more than 1,400 children in Rotherham were abused from 1997 to 2013.

'Suspicions of cover-up'
Committee chairman Keith Vaz said the Home Office should do "everything in its power" to locate any missing files in its possession relating to child sexual exploitation in Rotherham and other places.

He said: "The proliferation of revelations about files which can no longer be located gives rise to public suspicion of a deliberate cover-up.

"The only way to address these concerns is with a full, transparent and urgent investigation."

The committee took evidence in private last month from a researcher employed by Rotherham Council between 2000 and 2002, who was working on a Home Office-funded pilot aimed at tackling prostitution.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29660345


----------



## likesfish (Oct 18, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29674059
Rotherham Council's director of children's services was paid £40,000 to leave in the wake of the child sex abuse scandal, it has been revealed.


----------



## Betsy (Oct 18, 2014)

likesfish said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29674059
> Rotherham Council's director of children's services was paid £40,000 to leave in the wake of the child sex abuse scandal, it has been revealed.


Brass necked to take it.


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 24, 2014)

Accompanying last weekends Home Affairs Committee report which Betsy reported above was some interesting documentation.

One item is a 19th September letter to the Committee from David Crompton, South Yorkshire Chief Constable, setting out the proposed structure of the enquiry he is commissioning into these events. (Aspects of this letter were picked up by Yorkshire newspapers a couple of days ago).

Letter from David Crompton, Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, to the Chair of the Committee, 19 September 2014

The National Crime Agency confirmed last week that it had agreed to lead the investigation and was "working to draw up detailed terms of reference". NCA Press Release

Crompton's letter was written before that but sets out a proposed structure involving both the NCA and the IPCC.

Complaints about misconduct by Police Officers would be investigated by the IPCC. 

It was confirmed this week that 14 people so far have been referred to the IPCC although they haven't yet begun their investigations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-29742424

Crompton's idea was that the NCA would look into three areas :

Criminal investigation into possible misconduct in public office by non-Police Officers (thus outside the remit of the IPCC). This would include Council officers and Councillors and he specifically includes Shaun Wright the former PCC and Council Cabinet member responsible for Child Services.
Historic CSE cases (cold cases) - to identify victims, witnesses and offenders with a view to potential prosecutions.
Oversight of those historic abuse cases currently being investigated by SYP as part of Operation Meadow (it's investigation into historic CSE). "It will not be possible for SYP to disengage from these investigations due to the level of engagement with victims".



> Clearly there will be a link between the two parts of the investigation because it is almost inconceivable that the criminal investigation will not identify matters to be referred to the IPCC around police misconduct.



Obviously the structure he set out may have been refined in the discussions with the NCA but it gives an idea of the scope of what is proposed.

Another interesting document published by the Home Affairs Committee is one of the transcripts of the hearings about Rotherham they held on September 9th. As mentioned back in this thread the first session that day was a closed one with the researcher whose 2002 report was suppressed, Angie Heal who produced reports into drug dealing which highlighted the connection with CSE and Jayne Senior of the Risky Business project in Rotherham.

Some details of what they had said, about the threats made to the researcher by Police Officers and the circumstances in which her evidence was removed from the Risky Business offices, emerged in the questions asked in the subsequent open sessions. However the full transcript is now on line, setting out more details of these events and naming a number of names.

Transcript of the HAC sessions on September 9th

The whole thing is worth reading but this exchange about how victims of CSE who were pregnant or had given birth were removed from at risk files, seemingly in order to transfer focus onto the risks to their children stood out :



> Q248  Nicola Blackwood: It is a very quick question. It is just to Ms Senior about the 2005 audit. It says in Professor Jay’s report that there was a decision made to remove the young girls who were pregnant or who had recently had children, from the at risk files. Why was that decision made?





> Jayne Senior: I don’t know exactly. A lot of children were removed from registers and files. There is the minutes of one of the meetings where it says, “Referred to teenage pregnancy nurse. Remove from forum”. I don’t know.



(...)



> Former Researcher: If I can offer something on that. What I encountered certainly was a shift of focus on to the baby, whether that be unborn or of a born child, and I certainly worked with one young woman throughout who was not seen as being at risk. There were constant references to this man being her ‘boyfriend’. He was invited to the antenatal meetings and so on; and then he was sentenced to a term of imprisonment for violent offences including witness and intimidation, and brutality. Subsequently her child was regarded as being at risk, and there were threats made to remove the child into the care system to protect the child from the same man who had targeted and abused this young woman since she was 13 years-old!





> Jayne Senior: There is a referral in here for a young woman that was living independently at 16 with her baby and men were going to the house and taking other children, and she was reporting that herself. She had been a victim and was reporting it and asked to be moved because she was in absolute fear, and the baby was removed because the baby was seen as being unsafe when 20, 30 men a night were turning up to have sex with her and other children while she had to sit outside the bedroom door and listen.



Lastly in the who-knew-what category the Yorkshire Post have reported that former Rotherham MP Denis MacShane, who has denied knowing anything about CSE while he was in office was one of those written to in 2009 by the charity CROP (now PACE) giving a detailed account of how a CSE case they were very concerned about was being mishandled by Social Services.

That letter from CROP with victims names redacted can be found online here.

MacShane's response according to the Post


> The former MP said he has no knowledge of the letter, and that as it was not directly addressed to him but to a larger group he might not necessarily have had to act on it.





> “No one ever approached me on this, not a single person came to me as a constituent on child abuse by Asian males. This notion that the whole world knew and there was a cover up is balderdash.”



MP and Home Office failed to act on Rotherham - Yorkshire Post


----------



## Lurdan (Oct 28, 2014)

Radio 4 File on 4 tonight at 8.00pm




> The Last Taboo?
> 
> As inquiries into child abuse in Rotherham continue, File on 4 investigates claims of a hidden problem of sexual abuse within Britain's Asian communities.
> 
> While the victims of recent grooming scandals have mostly been white girls, campaigners say Asian boys and girls have also been subjected to abuse over many years.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04mctw3


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 4, 2014)

Fingers said:


> In a few weeks you will be reading about a grooming trial equally as horrific as this, involving an EDL member which currently has reporting restrictions on it as he is facing many more charges.  I suspect they will not be camping outside the cop shop for that one.


Well, any news on this then - or has another edl news scoop bit the dust?


----------



## Betsy (Nov 18, 2014)

*Officers probed over Rotherham abuse*

_Ten South Yorkshire Police officers are to be investigated over the handling of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) has said. _

_The officers are ten of 13 referred to the IPCC by the force. _

_Two are not being investigated while a third officer remains under review._

_A report, published by Professor Alexis Jay in August, found the abuse of 1,400 children in Rotherham had been ignored by agencies, including police._

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30103480


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

I guess this one is more like Rochdale than Rotherham:

13 men guilty of enforced prostitution and rape of vulnerable girls in Bristol

With second group of convictions, story can be told of the sexual abuse of teens – some in local authority care – often for money



> Thirteen men, all of Somali origin, have been found guilty of the systematic sexual abuse of vulnerable schoolgirls and teenagers in Bristol.
> 
> The victims, some of whom were in local authority care, were groomed and passed around by their abusers – often for money – and assaulted in homes, parks and a hotel.
> 
> One of the girls was raped at the age of 13 on the same night by three different men, including a stranger, and thought her life would be in danger if she went to the police.





> Another girl was sexually exploited after a local authority outside Bristol set her up alone in a flat at the age of 16 in a deprived inner-city neighbourhood although she had been described as having the emotional development of a three-year-old.
> 
> Within hours of arriving, she was spotted by drug dealers who set up a base in her new home and forced her to work as a prostitute. The abuse continued for months even after she told care workers about what was happening; the girl’s 14-year-old sister was subsequently raped during a visit.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I guess this one is more like Rochdale than Rotherham:
> 
> 13 men guilty of enforced prostitution and rape of vulnerable girls in Bristol
> 
> With second group of convictions, story can be told of the sexual abuse of teens – some in local authority care – often for money



Any news as to whether they're going to be deported? The sooner they're fucked off back to Somalia the better.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Any news as to whether they're going to be deported? The sooner they're fucked off back to Somalia the better.


Where did you get the information that they are Somali? 'of Somali origin' is all the article says.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Where did you get the information that they are Somali? 'of Somali origin' is all the article says.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ble-british-girls-as-young-as-13-9887517.html

"Part of Somali culture and tradition" apparently.

We have enough cunts in the UK without importing human garbage. Fuck them


----------



## dylanredefined (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Any news as to whether they're going to be deported? The sooner they're fucked off back to Somalia the better.



 No direct flights to Somalia so quite hard to get rid of them istr.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> No direct flights to Somalia so quite hard to get rid of them istr.



Wouldn't be bothered if they were shoved out of the back of a plane from a great height.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> No direct flights to Somalia so quite hard to get rid of them istr.


What a pair of cunts. Most of the Somalis been here since kiddery. It's criminal not  racial - some smacked out dickeheads notwithstanding.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> What a pair of cunts. Most of the Somalis been here since kiddery. It's criminal not  racial - some smacked out dickeheads notwithstanding.



Even if there was even the smallest chance that the possibility of deportation to Somalia would have made them, or anyone else, think twice before doing what they did it would be worth it.

They’re human filth and deserve to be treated as such.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Even if there was even the smallest chance that the possibility of deportation to Somalia would have made them, or anyone else, think twice before doing what they did it would be worth it.
> 
> They’re human filth and deserve to be treated as such.


Given they or their parents have been given nationality at what point do you want this warning and who should it be directed at before any crime?

Simple usual failures here. None of which will be addressed by you shouting deport them. It won't be made much worse either.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Given they or their parents have been given nationality at what point do you want this warning and who should it be directed at before any crime?
> 
> Simple usual failures here. None of which will be addressed by you shouting deport them. It won't be made much worse either.



They should start in the schools, compulsory role play of being deported and thrown out of planes. Then they won't grow up to be rapists.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Given they or their parents have been given nationality at what point do you want this warning and who should it be directed at before any crime?
> 
> Simple usual failures here. None of which will be addressed by you shouting deport them. It won't be made much worse either.



If they’ve been granted nationality it should have been granted on the strict condition that it will be revoked, and they will be deported, if they commit crimes such as this.

No ifs, not buts. That should be a condition of granting nationality to anybody.

If they were born in Somalia perhaps you’d like to make a compelling case for them staying here.

Sadly, if they were born here we may be stuck with the fuckers.

These cunts make me so angry that I’m really struggling to think of a punishment that would be too severe.


----------



## bluescreen (Nov 27, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> They should start in the schools, compulsory role play of being deported and thrown out of planes. Then they won't grow up to be rapists.


Teaching people not to grow up to be rapists doesn't start with punishment. It starts with treating females as equal autonomous human beings.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> If they’ve been granted nationality it should have been granted on the strict condition that it will be revoked, and they will be deported, if they commit crimes such as this.
> 
> No ifs, not buts. That should be a condition of granting nationality to anybody.
> 
> ...


I'm quite angry too. This happened - and is happening - on my doorstep. I don't mean round the corner, i mean literally on my doorstop.

There cannot be a future crime nationality test.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> If they’ve been granted nationality it should have been granted on the strict condition that it will be revoked, and they will be deported, if they commit crimes such as this.
> 
> No ifs, not buts. That should be a condition of granting nationality to anybody.
> 
> ...


what about if they were born in british somaliland?


----------



## Coolfonz (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> If they’ve been granted nationality it should have been granted on the strict condition that it will be revoked, and they will be deported, if they commit crimes such as this.
> 
> No ifs, not buts. That should be a condition of granting nationality to anybody.
> 
> ...




Proper sentencing maybe? Decent law enforcement in the first place? Plenty of kids of UK parents in Spain committing crimes now, whole generation of brit-immigrants over there. Deport them back to the UK?

But your anger is fair of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie a week or two round at yours should learn 'em


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Teaching people not to grow up to be rapists doesn't start with punishment. It starts with treating females as equal autonomous human beings.


by "females" i suppose you mean girls and women


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> Proper sentencing maybe? Decent law enforcement in the first place? Plenty of kids of UK parents in Spain committing crimes now, whole generation of brit-immigrants over there. Deport them back to the UK?
> 
> But your anger is fair of course.



As it happens, I'd have absolutely no problem with kids of UK parents, if they're UK citizens, committing crimes in Spain (or anywhere else for that matter) being deported to the UK if the severity of the crime warranted it.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> Proper sentencing maybe? Decent law enforcement in the first place? Plenty of kids of UK parents in Spain committing crimes now, whole generation of brit-immigrants over there. Deport them back to the UK?
> 
> But your anger is fair of course.



wtf? Are you serious?


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> happie chappie a week or two round at yours should learn 'em



If people round here found out what they did I wouldn't give much for their chances. I suspect it would be the same reaction pretty much everywhere in the UK.


----------



## Coolfonz (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> As it happens, I'd have absolutely no problem with kids of UK parents committing crimes in Spain (or anywhere else for that matter) being deported to the UK if the severity of the crime warranted it.



Seriously? Deport Spanish kids because their parents are foreigners?

I suggest its better to have a police force, social services etc that give a fuck in the first place rather than deporting your own nationals...


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> Seriously? Deport Spanish kids because their parents are foreigners?



If they're UK citizens they're not Spanish kids.


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## Coolfonz (Nov 27, 2014)

I think you haven't got what I said. Maybe it's my poor phrasing.

Personally I would rather try and convict child abusers rather than stick them on planes. And even better, prevent them doing what they do in the first place.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> As it happens, I'd have absolutely no problem with kids of UK parents, if they're UK citizens, committing crimes in Spain (or anywhere else for that matter) being deported to the UK if the severity of the crime warranted it.


I don't really give a fuck what you do and don't have a problem with, tbh. Your attitude is despicable. _Remember, you lot, yeah, you over there - you weren't born here, you will never belong_. 

Fuck off.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't really give a fuck what you do and don't have a problem with, tbh. Your attitude is despicable. _Remember, you lot, yeah, you over there - you weren't born here, you will never belong_. Fuck off.



Thank you for your kind reply. By default everyone should belong here. But if you rape children you should be deported.

BTW - I'm the child of immigrants before you start throwing the racist mud at me.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> BTW - I'm the child of immigrants before you start throwing the racist mud at me.


That makes no difference whatever, no. You can still fuck off.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> I think you haven't got what I said. Maybe it's my poor phrasing.
> 
> Personally I would rather try and convict child abusers rather than stick them on planes. And even better, prevent them doing what they do in the first place.



They're not mutually exclusive.

Step 1- [try to] prevent them doing what they do in the first place

Step 2 - try and convict child abusers [and give them very long sentences]

Step 3 - stick them on planes


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## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie - you're  normally a sound poster, a non hysterical voice - you messed this one right up though. Do us all a favour and come back tmw -if you're thinking same then fine.


----------



## happie chappie (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> happie chappie - you're  normally a sound poster, a non hysterical voice - you messed this one right up though. Do us all a favour and come back tmw -if you're thinking same then fine.



Apologies - I'm just so fucking angry. It's so (metaphorically) close to home that I just can't think straight. Off for a cry and pull myself together.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

happie chappie said:


> Apologies - I'm just so fucking angry. It's so (metaphorically) close to home that I just can't think straight. Off for a cry and pull myself together.


Don't apologise mate - the hurt/cry/everything is all there. It's fantastic that you care.


----------



## Thora (Nov 27, 2014)

Unbelievable that anyone could think putting a vulnerable 16 year old in a flat on her own on Stapleton Road, an area she didn't even know, was a good idea


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## likesfish (Nov 27, 2014)

The fuckers claimed what they were doing was part of somali culture so I'm happy for them to be dropped off on the coast of somali cunts. so they can experiance the vibrancy of the culture first hand


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Don't apologise mate - the hurt/cry/everything is all there. It's fantastic that you care.


 Good post.


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## bluescreen (Nov 27, 2014)

Got a link to that, likesfish?


----------



## Wilf (Nov 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> The fuckers claimed what they were doing was part of somali culture so I'm happy for them to be dropped off on the coast of somali cunts. so they can experiance the vibrancy of the culture first hand


 Yes, but do you think they _*were*_ motivated by Somali culture - or were just a bunch of common or garden mass rapists?


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## Geri (Nov 27, 2014)

Fucking hell, this is really close to home. I thought things had got better around here. Scumbags.


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## likesfish (Nov 27, 2014)

I think they were a bunch of gang rapists/ pimps who brought into the somali clans are awesome bullshit.


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## Belushi (Nov 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> I think they were a bunch of gang rapists/ pimps who brought into the somali clans are awesome bullshit.



Given their nicknames 'Sniper', 'Left-Eye' etc I don't think its Somali Clans they saw as role models.


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## goldenecitrone (Nov 27, 2014)

likesfish said:


> The fuckers claimed what they were doing was part of somali culture so I'm happy for them to be dropped off on the coast of *somali cunts*. so they can experiance the vibrancy of the culture first hand



Didn't Stanley Edwards get banned for this kind of racist abuse?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2014)

goldenecitrone said:


> Didn't Stanley Edwards get banned for this kind of racist abuse?


he's been banned for so many things it's hard to say. but he's not banned at the moment.


----------



## Jonny5 (Nov 27, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> I'm quite angry too. This happened - and is happening - on my doorstep. I don't mean round the corner, i mean literally on my doorstop.
> 
> There cannot be a future crime nationality test.



Literally on your doorstep. Of course it is.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2014)

Jonny5 said:


> Literally on your doorstep. Of course it is.


right. this will end well.


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## butchersapron (Nov 27, 2014)

Jonny5 said:


> Literally on your doorstep. Of course it is.


Hello jonny. Yeah it is btw. Literally. Not your middle class literally, but real literally. Real literally. On my door step.


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## Buckaroo (Nov 27, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> right. this will end well.



I think it did!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 27, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> I think it did!


i didn't expect it to end so soon


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## xenon (Nov 27, 2014)

Fucking filth. 

ON the deportation thing. If a foreign national commits a serious crime warrenting lengthy prison sentence, I've no problem with them being deported once it's served, in general. Isn't that what happens anyway?  British citizens or persons given indephenant right to remain in the UK. They stay. Revoking citizenship is not a power I want any state to have TBH. But this is not even a side issue really.

What's happening that allows gangs like this to operate. The systematic break down stuff, again. Attitudes, overstretched services staffed by demoralised ground staff. Probably all that again is the story.


----------



## BlackArab (Nov 27, 2014)

Thora said:


> Unbelievable that anyone could think putting a vulnerable 16 year old in a flat on her own on Stapleton Road, an area she didn't even know, was a good idea



Not uncommon though, have you not noticed the amount of vulnerable people that are housed with slumlords in Easton and St Pauls. Seems like even councils outside of the city are at it now from the reports.  Throw in the bail hostels, drug & alcohol projects and shelters which various organisations have based in these areas and a pattern emerges...


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## Dogsauce (Nov 28, 2014)

Thora said:


> Unbelievable that anyone could think putting a vulnerable 16 year old in a flat on her own on Stapleton Road, an area she didn't even know, was a good idea



They put people wherever is cheap and wherever a landlord doesn't worry about who takes their property. This tends to be more run-down areas. A couple of places like this on my road, we had a very troubled teenager out of the care system housed in a flat opposite a few years back, just after having her baby taken off her. The worst kind of assholes were turning up outside at all hours, fighting in the street, kicking doors through and so on. One even punched out a neighbour who intervened after he'd floored the girl in the street. Poor vulnerable kids like this attract despicable cunts unfortunately, and once they're old enough they're usually on their own, the people who look after them have their hands full.


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## butchersapron (Nov 28, 2014)

BlackArab said:


> Not uncommon though, have you not noticed the amount of vulnerable people that are housed with slumlords in Easton and St Pauls. Seems like even councils outside of the city are at it now from the reports.  Throw in the bail hostels, drug & alcohol projects and shelters which various organisations have based in these areas and a pattern emerges...


Not just bristol now - seaside towns are full of people sent there by other councils - go to the area around ellenborough park in weston, full of vulnerable people or people with anti-social behaviour sent there by midlands councils. And their tormenters/dealers/etc  often follow. Social dumping.


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## trabuquera (Nov 28, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Given their nicknames 'Sniper', 'Left-Eye' etc I don't think its Somali Clans they saw as role models.


 
Nicknames are a long-established part of Somali culture: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26354143

Gang sexual abuse of children is not (no matter what this band of common criminals insisted to their victims.)

Somali culture has plenty messed-up about its treatment of women (instances of forced marriage, very frequent FGM, pressure to veil etc) but to float the idea that it is 'traditional' for Somali men to share 'girlfriends' is the absolute opposite of the real picture. Al Shabaab would probably have stoned this lot to death for adultery if they'd tried it on in Somalia. Which of course they would never have dared to.


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 28, 2014)

Been arrests over this last night on the cowley road in Oxford to


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## rover07 (Nov 28, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> Nicknames are a long-established part of Somali culture: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26354143
> 
> Gang sexual abuse of children is not (no matter what this band of common criminals insisted to their victims.)
> 
> Somali culture has plenty messed-up about its treatment of women (instances of forced marriage, very frequent FGM, pressure to veil etc) but to float the idea that it is 'traditional' for Somali men to share 'girlfriends' is the absolute opposite of the real picture. Al Shabaab would probably have stoned this lot to death for adultery if they'd tried it on in Somalia. Which of course they would never have dared to.



I bet there is prostitution and pimping/drug gangs in Somalia just as there is here.


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## trabuquera (Nov 28, 2014)

I'm sure you're right - but there's no way anyone would try to argue they're "part of Somali culture". Any more than people ever argue that prostitution, pimping and drugs gangs are "part of British culture".


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 28, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> I'm sure you're right - but there's no way anyone would try to argue they're "part of Somali culture". Any more than people ever argue that prostitution, pimping and drugs gangs are "part of British culture".


Who made that claim in this case btw?


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## trabuquera (Nov 28, 2014)

The abusers themselves, counting on their perception that plenty of British people might be foolish/racist/ill informed enough to believe it. The postings on here indicate that depressingly they were right about that.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 28, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> The abusers themselves, counting on their perception that plenty of British people might be foolish/racist/ill informed enough to believe it. The postings on here indicate that depressingly they were right about that.


I haven't seen anyone here say that_ yes, prostitution, pimping and drugs are actually a part of somali culture_. I've just seen you try to pin that on other posters. Not good.


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## dylanredefined (Nov 28, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> I'm sure you're right - but there's no way anyone would try to argue they're "part of Somali culture". Any more than people ever argue that prostitution, pimping and drugs gangs are "part of British culture".



  One of them used it as an excuse to the girl he was abusing. Vile individuals hope they are put away for a long time.


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## bluescreen (Nov 28, 2014)

First: the girls. Let's not ever forget them, however deep we get into sociology. They need believing and supporting.

Then the question of how did this happen.


butchersapron said:


> I haven't seen anyone here say that_ yes, prostitution, pimping and drugs are actually a part of somali culture_. I've just seen you try to pin that on other posters. Not good.


Oh god. I was dubious about that too, but it's been widely reported. It's total crap of course, but damage is done.


> Some of the victims in Bristol were persuaded to have sex with their boyfriends' friends as it was Somali “culture and tradition” and “men always have sex with each other’s girlfriends”


----------



## trabuquera (Nov 28, 2014)

OK, not trying to pin any particular individual here as a racist but it did seem from various comments on the thread that the line this was 'part of Somali culture' had been swallowed at least in part by at least some posters? if not then why are we going around in these circles? obviously it just isn't.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 28, 2014)

trabuquera said:


> OK, not trying to pin any particular individual here as a racist but it did seem from various comments on the thread that the line this was 'part of Somali culture' had been swallowed at least in part by at least some posters? if not then why are we going around in these circles? obviously it just isn't.


Give some examples of people swallowing it then. Should be easy.


----------



## trabuquera (Nov 28, 2014)

POSTS #1404, 1432, 1437, 1438, 1452 appear to show some confusion as to what is and what isn't actually part of somali culture, is all I am trying to say. Not that you - or anyone else on here - is a scumbag racist OR that anyone here has swallowed either the criminals' or the tabloids' line whole and entire.

(and fwiw: I think arguing that anything is 'part of X culture' is problematic and over-simplifying, even or especially when I do it myself as in the nicknames post. what is culture? what is just habit? where does one culture end and another begin? etc etc etc etc etc. )


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2014)

Buckaroo said:


> They should start in the schools, compulsory role play of being deported and thrown out of planes. Then they won't grow up to be rapists.



Probably having their parents raped by dogs would help instill some fear too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2014)

bluescreen said:


> Teaching people not to grow up to be rapists doesn't start with punishment. It starts with treating females as equal autonomous human beings.



A noble sentiment, but while education would help, we need to remember that sex crimes are as often (perhaps more often) the result of opportunism on the part of the criminal, than the result of being raised in an oppressively anti-female parent culture. A vast majority of 1st-generation British whose parents were raised in quasi-misogynistic cultures don't become rapists, even though they may display some chauvinistic or misogynistic behaviour.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> Seriously? Deport Spanish kids because their parents are foreigners?
> 
> I suggest its better to have a police force, social services etc that give a fuck in the first place rather than deporting your own nationals...



So often it's not about whether a fuck is given, especially with regard to social services, it's a bout funding, and a system of commissioning services rather than providing them that sucks what little financial resources there are out of the system. All the "giving a fuck"s in the world do no good if you don't have the resources to provide appropriate services or, more often, more than a skeleton service at all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2014)

likesfish said:


> The fuckers claimed what they were doing was part of somali culture so I'm happy for them to be dropped off on the coast of somali cunts. so they can experiance the vibrancy of the culture first hand



In the past, when such claims have been made in mitigation, especially by the children of immigrants, the judge usually kicks them in the bollocks because they've generally had equal exposure to British culture - in other words the judge sees the "mitigation" for what it often is - a lawyer's tactic to excuse the behaviour of their client.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 28, 2014)

Thora said:


> Unbelievable that anyone could think putting a vulnerable 16 year old in a flat on her own on Stapleton Road, an area she didn't even know, was a good idea



Been happening increasingly over the last 20 years or so, and now that local authority care has been re-legislated to make sure social services cover children in care to a minimum age of 18, some local authorities appear to be looking to fulfill their responsibilities as cheaply as possible, even if it means exposing their wards to possible harm.


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## likesfish (Nov 28, 2014)

No I thought the bastards were taking the piss the idea of pimping your girlfriend out  is anything to do with somalian culture was and is total bollocks. If there not uk citizens they should be deported to somali if they are then we have to deal with them.


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## steve0223 (Nov 29, 2014)

They were just taking the piss weren't they with the "its our culture to share girlfriends.". Its all very depressing. The girls treated like commodities to be shipped around by local authorities. The girls treated like commodities by the abusers to make money. The Somali kids who dont seem to know where they fit in, probs getting 'mainstream' work  or jsa ,with a proportion ending up dealing with all the trappings that lifestyle brings.  Guy who works in my local shop went to school with them all. Said they all did well at GCSEs but past couple years started to drop out and start dealing around Stapleton road. People I know who lived in the block they lived in said they were always people coming and going , loud parties, always police doing raids for drugs, but had no idea that this shit was going on. think a lot of people in shock, and just waiting to see what will happen next.


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## Geri (Nov 29, 2014)

Two of them were employed by Royal Mail.


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## Coolfonz (Nov 29, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Not just bristol now - seaside towns are full of people sent there by other councils - go to the area around ellenborough park in weston, full of vulnerable people or people with anti-social behaviour sent there by midlands councils. And their tormenters/dealers/etc  often follow. Social dumping.


`The advantages of social apartheid` by Charles Murray in the Times in (i think) March 2005, always a good read.


----------



## steve0223 (Nov 29, 2014)

Indeed that makes it more depressing. If they were all in some kind of gangsta bubble it would be easier to comprehend. Interesting article saying that Somali women also abused but withdrew allegations cos of fear of reprisals. http://www.hiiraan.com/news4/2014/N...ex_abuse_gang_race_not_a_relevant_factor.aspx


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## jrthelord (Nov 30, 2014)

steve0223 said:


> Indeed that makes it more depressing. If they were all in some kind of gangsta bubble it would be easier to comprehend. Interesting article saying that Somali women also abused but withdrew allegations cos of fear of reprisals. http://www.hiiraan.com/news4/2014/N...ex_abuse_gang_race_not_a_relevant_factor.aspx



She talks about the Quran at the end, if I make a post mentioning the bible in a similar context it would quite rightly be derided.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2014)

jrthelord said:


> She talks about the Quran at the end, if I make a post mentioning the bible in a similar context it would quite rightly be derided.


And that's the key thing you take away from that article is it? Aside from that, it's a perfectly relevant quote illustrating something the article is designed to address and that she has been working towards for some time in Bristol.


----------



## jrthelord (Nov 30, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> And that's the key thing you take away from that article is it? Aside from that, it's a perfectly relevant quote illustrating something the article is designed to address and that she has been working towards for some time in Bristol.



No, just making the point that including that kind of quote means I'm unwilling to take the article seriously.

I'd have the same reaction towards any religious text being used in the same manner.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2014)

jrthelord said:


> No, just making the point that including that kind of quote means I'm unwilling to take the article seriously.
> 
> I'd have the same reaction towards any religious text being used in the same manner.


Why? She's Muslim and takes the Quran as a point of reference for lines of inspiration. So what? I'm guessing you wouldn't have taken Martin Luther King seriously then, as he quoted the bible. 

That's just silly. Being atheist personally doesn't mean you ought to dismiss anything someone religious says just because they quote religious texts as an aside.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2014)

jrthelord said:


> She talks about the Quran at the end, if I make a post mentioning the bible in a similar context it would quite rightly be derided.


I think you're wrong about that. If someone made a long and thoughtful post on here and ended it with a verse from a religious text that gives them inspiration, I don't think it would be derided. Certainly not by me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> `The advantages of social apartheid` by Charles Murray in the Times in (i think) March 2005, always a good read.



If you like reading the output of a racist academic fraud.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2014)

Benefit of the doubt, I guess, that CF doesn't know who Charles Murray is.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2014)

This is the quote from the Koram used - it's perfectly relevant to her argument before it. i think it would take a special effort to claim that an argument that islam is not inherently pro-child abuse and subject to cover-ups should not use quotes from the founding texts of islam to make the case.

“O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is against the rich or the poor...” (Quran 4:135)


----------



## Coolfonz (Nov 30, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Benefit of the doubt, I guess, that CF doesn't know who Charles Murray is.





ViolentPanda said:


> If you like reading the output of a racist academic fraud.



You really need to read what people write, what the thread is about and so on. Incredible. And thanks very much I know exactly who Charles Murray is.

Now go back. Read it again. Maybe it will make sense to you a second time around.

If you need it spelling out - and it appears that you do - Butchersapron was making a point about `social dumping` practised by councils/municipalities etc.
I then pointed - in agreement - to what I regard as a pretty seminal ultra right wing article in the Times from nine years ago called `the advantages of social apartheid` which is in favour of exactly this (cites the `clean up` of Manhattan as an example).

Hopefully you get my point now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> You really need to read what people write, what the thread is about and so on. Incredible. And thanks very much I know exactly who Charles Murray is.
> 
> Now go back. Read it again. Maybe it will make sense to you a second time around.
> 
> ...



Ooh! Someone is a bit thin-skinned regarding perceived criticism!

Amusing that you lecture on comprehension while lacking it yourself.  My point wasn't anything to do with whether you knew who Murray was, it was (fairly obviously) that Murray writes for a particular _milieu_, and has a poor record for standing up what he writes with actual non-fabricated evidence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2014)

Coolfonz said:


> You really need to read what people write, what the thread is about and so on. Incredible. And thanks very much I know exactly who Charles Murray is.
> 
> Now go back. Read it again. Maybe it will make sense to you a second time around.
> 
> ...


do you have a link to this seminal article?


----------



## Coolfonz (Nov 30, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ooh! Someone is a bit thin-skinned regarding perceived criticism!
> 
> Amusing that you lecture on comprehension while lacking it yourself.  My point wasn't anything to do with whether you knew who Murray was, it was (fairly obviously) that Murray writes for a particular _milieu_, and has a poor record for standing up what he writes with actual non-fabricated evidence.


I'm a very sensitive flower. Murray is a massive massive cnut just to be clear.

http://www.aei.org/publication/the-advantages-of-social-apartheid/


----------



## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2014)

Didn't he write the bell curve and also suggest that high crime areas should just be left to rot and forgotten about?


----------



## Coolfonz (Nov 30, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Didn't he write the bell curve and also suggest that high crime areas should just be left to rot and forgotten about?


Yes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 1, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> Didn't he write the bell curve and also suggest that high crime areas should just be left to rot and forgotten about?



"The Bell Curve" was co-written with Richard Herrnstein. Murray's journalism (published by rightwing newspapers and tedious "house journals for people like The Heritage Foundation, mostly) plays on the old theme that poverty is the fault of the poor, and that if only they showed a bit of gumption and entrepreneurship, they too could have been born into a well-off family who paid their way through college made their own way in the world like he did.


----------



## Lurdan (Jan 28, 2015)

So three months on what has happened to all those investigations into events in Rotherham ?

Louise Casey's review of the Council's governance, children's and young people's services and taxi licensing arrangements, which Eric Pickles announced last September, was due to report back to him about now and is due to be published in the spring. A more detailed list of what Pickles instructed her to look at can be found here.

Yesterday the National Crime Agency announced (press release here) that they have appointed Steve Baldwin to head Operation Stovewood, the independent investigation into non-familial child sexual exploitation and abuse in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013 which was commissioned by South Yorkshire's Chief Constable some months ago.



> The NCA is this month establishing a major incident room, having been given management and control of secure accommodation in a South Yorkshire Police building.
> 
> Only officers and other staff employed to deliver, or support, the investigation will have access to the major incident room, which is being equipped with both NCA systems and links to access necessary South Yorkshire Police information. This may include a number of selected and vetted South Yorkshire officers and staff.





> Operation Stovewood is still in its initial phase; to identify and examine relevant material held by South Yorkshire Police and other bodies in order to scope the nature, scale and requirements of its investigation.



One strand of Operation Stovewood is to carry out a detailed review of those investigations into historic abuse currently being conducted by South Yorkshire Police. This is due to begin next week.

Originally it was announced that the NCA would be looking at possible misconduct in public office by non-Police Officers including Council officers, Councillors and Shaun Wright the former PCC. There is no specific reference to this in the NCA Press release.

The cost of Operation Stovewood, expected to run into millions, will fall on South Yorkshire Police. The new Police and Crime Commissioner Dr Alan Billings has already asked for a 1.95% increase in the policing element of Council Tax for 2015-16 to cover increased costs.

No further word on the IPCC's investigations into the conduct of ten South Yorkshire Police Officers since the announcement in November. Operation Stovewood is likely to lead to further officers being referred.

According to this story last week in the Sheffield Star, the Home Office investigation into missing and stolen files, including those removed from the Risky Business offices at the time of the unpublished research project the Home Office commissioned in 2002, is still in the 'scoping phase'. It was unknown when the investigation proper, to be conducted by Richard Whittam QC and Peter Wanless, might start.

Rotherham Council, meanwhile, has lost a couple more senior officers, appointed a new head of children's services (but not yet a new Chief Executive), rejected a FOI request to publish the 2003 and 2006 reports which it had ignored because they currently form part of Police investigations, and decided to look at employing the kinds of High Court injunctions banning suspected abusers from contacting victims which Birmingham Council obtained in November.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 4, 2015)

The report of Louise Casey's inspection has been published today. (Downloadable here as a pdf).  Just started reading it but it's extremely critical of Rotherham Council.


> EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
> Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council is not fit for purpose. It is failing in its legal obligation  to  secure  continuous  improvement  in  the  way  in  which  it  exercises  its functions.  In  particular,  it  is  failing  in  its  duties  to  protect  vulnerable  children  and young people from harm.





> This inspection revealed past and present failures to accept, understand and combat the issue of Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE), resulting in a lack of support for victims and insufficient action against known perpetrators.





> The  Council’s  culture  is  unhealthy:  bullying,  sexism,  suppression  and  misplaced ‘political correctness’ have cemented its failures. The Council is currently incapable of tackling its weaknesses, without a sustained intervention.


(...)


> Our investigations revealed:
> •  a council in denial about serious and on-going safeguarding failures
> •  an archaic culture of sexism, bullying and discomfort around race
> •  failure to address past weaknesses, in particular in Children’s Social Care
> ...





> •  ineffective leadership and management, including political leadership
> •  no  shared  vision,  a  partial  management  team  and  ineffective  liaisons  with
> partners
> •  a  culture  of  covering  up  uncomfortable  truths,  silencing  whistle-blowers  and
> paying off staff rather than dealing with difficult issues



Rotherham Council 'not fit for purpose over child abuse failings' - BBC
Rotherham council in denial on child sexual exploitation failures, report says - Guardian


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2015)

The cabinet resign.The cabinet.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 4, 2015)

In your dreams.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2015)

They have. The rotherham cabinet that is.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 4, 2015)

> Rotherham Borough Council’s cabinet is to resign in the wake of Louise Casey’s damning report “as soon as transitional arrangements can be put in place”, the council said.


Guardian site

This is the reconstructed cabinet after a number of the old members stood down. I suspect the 'transitional arrangements' may be difficult for them.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 4, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> They have. The rotherham cabinet that is.


Apologies. I should have read the article first. 

Do you think there is an element of political bullying here, or can we take this as fair?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 4, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Apologies. I should have read the article first.
> 
> Do you think there is an element of political bullying here, or can we take this as fair?


Not sure - i do think there's an element of _get me out of here quick _ on the part of the recomposed cabinet. Maybe a bit of both then - _bully me out of this please._


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 4, 2015)

Pickles has just announced commissioners will be taking over the full role and powers of the cabinet.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 4, 2015)

From the Casey report :


> The clearest manifestation of denial was that Member after Member and officer after officer  disputed  the  methodology  of  the  Professor  Jay’s  report.  The  numbers  of victims  were  challenged,  the  cases  she  referred  to  were  questioned  and  the interviews she had undertaken were queried.
> 
> When  asked,  70%  of  the  current  Rotherham  Councillors  we  spoke  to  (including those in the Cabinet) disputed Professor Jay’s findings.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 4, 2015)

Even following the publication of last year's damning report the council are still in denial and still trying to distance themselves from the evidence.
The opportunity placed before the executive and the cabinet to accept and move forward to resolve the issues was lost by the inability they have in pulling their laissez-faire socks up.
To be honest I am not in the least shocked.
This is what happens when front line staff are ignored, bullied and in some cases re-deployed when attempting to raise concerns.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 4, 2015)

Two Rotherham councillors and police officer accused of having sex with abuse scandal victims - Independent



> Two councillors and a police officer in Rotherham have been accused of having sex with victims of abuse in the South Yorkshire town, it has been claimed today.
> 
> The allegations against the two politicians and a police constable have been reported by The Times as an independent inspection report into Rotherham Council was due to be published today.





> The police officer has been also accused of passing information on to abusers in the town. A colleague has reportedly been accused of failing to take appropriate action after receiving information about the officer's conduct. Both have been reported to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
> 
> The allegations against the two councillors, one of whom is still reportedly serving, are understood to have been passed on to the National Crime Agency (...)


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 4, 2015)

Rotherham council cabinet has resigned.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 4, 2015)

Lurdan said:


> Two Rotherham councillors and police officer accused of having sex with abuse scandal victims - Independent



cunts


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2015)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Rotherham council cabinet has resigned.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


So should the filth. From Louise Casey's report...


> There were numerous occasions in which girls were not believed.
> 
> They were threatened with wasting police time, they were told they had consented to sex and, on occasion, they were arrested at the scene of a crime, rather than the perpetrators.
> 
> Police did not understand the terror which many victims lived in and their consequent fear of testifying and their anxiety over whether police could protect them. Some of the crimes we were made aware of included rape with a broken bottle and girls being ordered to kiss perpetrators’ feet at gunpoint.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 4, 2015)

fuckin police and councillor scum- and they wonder why we dont have any faith in them, vermin


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 4, 2015)

Hard not to be outraged:
This: 





> Ms Casey said the local authority was "repeatedly told" by its own youth service what was happening.
> It chose, she said "not only to not act, but to close that service down."


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2015)

Yes, fuck resigning...this is more important...



> *Operation Stovewood*, the National Crime Agency’s independent investigation examining criminal allegations of non-familial child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, is to examine a number of potentially criminal matters identified during a recent inspection of Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 4, 2015)

As appalling as the council's part in this is folks don't forget the other party in inaction is none other than South Yorkshire's finest.
It's not as though they haven't got previous!


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2015)

> Terrible things happened in Rotherham and on a significant scale. Children were sexually exploited by men who came largely from the Pakistani heritage community. Not enough was done to acknowledge this, to stop it happening, to protect children, to support victims and to apprehend perpetrators.
> 
> *Upon arriving in Rotherham, these I thought were the uncontested facts.* My job was to conduct an inspection and decide whether the council was now fit for purpose.
> 
> However, this was not the situation I encountered when I reached Rotherham. Instead, *I found a council in denial. They denied that there had been a problem, or if there had been, that it was as big as was said. If there was a problem they certainly were not told – it was someone else’s job. *They were no worse than anyone else. *They had won awards.* The media were out to get them.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> As appalling as the council's part in this is folks don't forget the other party in inaction is none other than South Yorkshire's finest.
> It's not as though they haven't got previous!



Yep the institutional culpability of the police needs to be brought to book...but don't hold your breath.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> As appalling as the council's part in this is folks don't forget the other party in inaction is none other than South Yorkshire's finest.
> It's not as though they haven't got previous!


Different authorities, but same lodge.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 4, 2015)

Fuck the racism. What's heritage got to do with it? Isn't it just a dog whistle?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 4, 2015)

brogdale said:


> Different authorities, but same lodge.


True, I am posting this from outside Doncaster police station and feeling somewhat paranoid!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> True, I am posting this from outside Doncaster police station and feeling somewhat paranoid!


better than posting from within donnie police station


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> better than posting from within donnie police station



Again, well it was a phone call actually.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> Again, well it was a phone call actually.


and at least not made after arrest.

but was it made after work?


----------



## sojourner (Feb 4, 2015)

Lurdan said:


> Two Rotherham councillors and police officer accused of having sex with abuse scandal victims - Independent


Reckon there'll be a fuckton more than just them, too


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 4, 2015)

The Casey report lambasts many aspects of the Council's functioning  but its criticisms of the Children's Social Care Service in particular are excoriating. I would imagine staff at all levels will be facing a fairly torrid time.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2015)

sojourner said:


> Reckon there'll be a fuckton more than just them, too


Would not be surprising, would it?


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 4, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> and at least not made after arrest.
> 
> but was it made after work?



A bolt through the heart from our drive-by archer!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> A bolt through the heart from our drive-by archer!


i'm not looking for a quarrel


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 4, 2015)

And in the you-couldn't-make-it-up department :

South Yorkshire Police officer suspended over claims he used force helicopter to film activity at dogging spots - Sheffield Star


> A South Yorkshire Police officer has been suspended over allegations he used the force helicopter to hover over dogging spots to video people having sex.
> 
> Adrian Pogmore, aged 48, was suspended in December over ‘unauthorised use of force visual recording equipment’, police chiefs have admitted.





> An investigation is underway into allegations he recorded activity at dogging spots and took the footage home to watch.
> 
> The allegation led to a search of his home in Rotherham, but police chiefs said no footage was found.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2015)

sojourner said:


> Reckon there'll be a fuckton more than just them, too



Which is possibly part of the reason so many council employees appeared to be in denial - the fear that deeper examination would reveal complicity and/or participation.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't get it. Maybe I'm naive but I just don't understand how this abuse was going on on such a massive scale. I'm not doubting it, just incredulous at the scale of the cover-up. 
Meanwhile, what a lovely chance for the government to take charge of local government.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

It's awful even to suggest this but I will: is the Casey report politically motivated?
Let there be no doubt. Girls in Rotherham have been abused. And let down by the very people who should protect them. (See what I did with grammar there?) There has been a lot of burying heads in sand. Is the abuse still happening? Who would know, who should know? What is being done about it?
Repeat for every council district in the UK. 
And, whoops, who has found out and is there an election soon?


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

E2A I'm conflicted about this. If Casey is right, this stuff needs to be out there and acted on soonest. But it can't help but be a win for big government. 
Not that local government has covered itself in laurels here. This story is about (at least) 1400 tragedies, and failure of local action and accountability. Watch the Tories make hay, with a side order of racism.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 5, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> It's awful even to suggest this but I will: is the Casey report politically motivated?


If you read the report this is one of the reasons used by Rotherham Councillors to dismiss the newspaper reports in the Times which made the issue public. And I suspect this is how some of them will be reacting to Pickles sending in the Commissioners.


bluescreen said:


> There has been a lot of burying heads in sand. Is the abuse still happening? Who would know, who should know? What is being done about it?
> Repeat for every council district in the UK.


The report doesn't answer the question of how - at different levels - Councillors and Council Officers distanced themselves from the reality what was going on and justified inaction even after the quantity of shit heading towards the fan should have been blindingly obvious. How could the response to the Jay Report have been to find reasons to reject it ? But it does describe some of the culture in the Council which made that degree of denial possible.

This undoubtedly should be a 'there but the grace of good fortune' moment for other local authorities because while (hopefully) not many have the scale of CSE and the scale of failure to acknowledge and respond it as Rotherham, I believe this does reflect a widespread set of issues and failures.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

I have my own guess at the reasons for Councillor inaction and that guess is   ungenerous. I'm ashamed of myself for even thinking such things.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 5, 2015)

If you mean that it's because they are all involved in abuse or in deliberately facilitating it I think that would almost certainly be completely wrong. And to follow that line of argument would mean avoiding addressing the lessons of what has happened in favour of a simple narrative of good and evil.

If you haven't done so it would be worth looking at the report. It's quite long, although that reflects the range of issues Casey was told to look at, but it's clearly written and divided into manageable sections, so it's not necessary to read the whole thing. I have to say that aspects of the culture it describes (sadly) rang a lot of bells.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks. I wasn't thinking of Lakin, who sounds decent but deceived. TBH I have problems with the impartiality of the Casey report, starting with the very first paragraph. She seems to bring a lot of prejudices. 





> Terrible things happened in Rotherham and on a significant scale. Children were sexually exploited by men who came largely from the Pakistani Heritage Community. Not enough was done to acknowledge this, to stop it happening, to protect children, to support victims and to apprehend perpetrators.


Extraordinarily judgmental language throughout the report. One would have hoped for something more judicious - as it is, it openly betrays its political origins, instead of concealing them in references and footnotes. 

The report is written with an almost novelistic relish.  Sensationalist, even. Cliffhangers at the end of sections. I have no reason to doubt its findings but its rhetoric is questionable. 
I suppose I am suggesting it should be a more boring read and that the government is incapable of ever getting anything right. It requires some mental realignment to accept that Pickles got it right here,


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 5, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> She seems to bring a lot of prejudices. Extraordinarily judgmental language throughout the report. One would have hoped for something more judicious - as it is, it openly betrays its political origins, instead of concealing them in references and footnotes.
> 
> The report is written with an almost novelistic relish.  Sensationalist, even. Cliffhangers at the end of sections. I have no reason to doubt its findings but its rhetoric is questionable.
> I suppose I am suggesting it should be a more boring read and that the government is incapable of ever getting anything right. It requires some mental realignment to accept that Pickles got it right here,


Well Casey is who she is and it reflects her style. I have no doubt that she was selected in part because of that style. But I don't agree with the suggestion that this means she is simply a Tory shill consciously engaging in doing their dirty work. Her report will undoubtedly be used to further a lot of different agendas but I think it would be wrong to project that all back on to her. (I don't say that because I have any immense sympathy for her). 

And in any case are the political games going on *really* the most important aspect of this appalling affair ? 

I'm afraid I'm a little baffled by the suggestion that it would be better if it was written in mandarin speak. Better for who ? Better for the Council Officers in Rotherham's Taxi Licensing section, to take one example, who clearly lied about what they knew and what they had done about it ? 

Do you mean it should be written like the long list of reports and inspections - all listed in the report - which Rotherham Councillors, Senior Management and - let's be clear - also junior staff, found ways to ignore, or deny, or even worse accept in multiple ways (some of them 'well meant') which led to no significant change ?

The consequences for some people who did mean well and who tried, however inadequately, to do something about things may well be 'unfair'. But they will scarcely be at the head of the list of people who have been negatively affected by this.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 5, 2015)

1400 odd raped kids and your worried this is political and dodgy writing  style???

Ffs corrupt and incompetant politicions safe from challenge because whats the alternative the torys?
  Sorry racism doesnt hide what happen the abusers were brown although the council and police who were suppoused to stop this instead allowed it to happen.

The police have no excuse and whoever was in a leadership postion at the time in rotherham needs to be held to account as they had evidence and washed their hands.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks, Lurdan. You bring this down to earth. I meant that more impersonal language would be - um - more impersonal. It would seem less parti pris.  You're right that focusing on the language is a distraction. Just feeling that all this is politically convenient.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

likesfish said:


> 1400 odd raped kids and your worried this is political and dodgy writing  style???
> 
> Ffs corrupt and incompetant politicions safe from challenge because whats the alternative the torys?
> Sorry racism doesnt hide what happen the abusers were brown although the council and police who were suppoused to stop this instead allowed it to happen.
> ...


I hate what's been going on. I don't think there is anyone around who doesn't. What I'm questioning is that people are seeking to make political capital out of it.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 5, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Thanks, Lurdan. You bring this down to earth. I meant that more impersonal language would be - um - more impersonal. It would seem less parti pris.  You're right that focusing on the language is a distraction. Just feeling that all this is politically convenient.


I don't disagree that a more 'personal' or 'populist' (or if you prefer 'tabloid)' style of report writing could be very easily be misused. But the same is true of mandarin speak. That is partly what the oblique mandarin style is for (only partly, because it's also about mounting preemptive defences against legal challenge).

But I don't see any reason to assume that the Casey report is being dishonest about the culture it describes. On the contrary, taken with all the stuff that has already been written or broadcast about Rotherham Council it rings horribly true.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 5, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> I hate what's been going on. I don't think there is anyone around who doesn't. What I'm questioning is that people are seeking to make political capital out of it.



Thats politics unfortunately. Rotherham labour party do deserve to lose power because they failed massively they were the establishment in Rotherham and didn't do their job.
  Having councils that seem to be one party states is never a good idea.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Feb 5, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which is possibly part of the reason so many council employees appeared to be in denial - the fear that deeper examination would reveal complicity and/or participation.


I once worked in a warehouse where a lot of thieving went on, this in the days before computer stock control & the thieving was on a scale that could have put people in jail. Those of us that did not want to get involved knew what was going on & those thieving probably thought we didn't. Nobody not involved blew the gaff because at best we would probably have lost our jobs & at worst could have been implicated. So yes it could have been said that the employees not involved were in denial. Might a similar thing exist within council & police force? The UK record for whistle blowers is not good. NHS whistle blowers for example don't get their jobs back & with families to keep & mortgages to pay might have this been a reason for those on the periphery of this to pretend to themselves this was not happening?


----------



## likesfish (Feb 5, 2015)

People did try even cops and got mugged off disciplined move sideways or otherwise fucked about till they dropped it.
 Even if they did try with zero support from above and with frightened and difficult witnesses it would be almost impossible.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> It's awful even to suggest this but I will: is the Casey report politically motivated?



It's a worry given Casey's past history. She's certainly not been beyond bending facts to suit the desires of her political masters when they wanted her to (Rough Sleepers' Initiative, anyone?).


----------



## likesfish (Feb 5, 2015)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-sex-with-abuse-scandal-victims-10022666.html

So they were active nonces now not just covering it up things get worse


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 5, 2015)

Statement from Rotherham Labour Group - Sheffield Star


> We want to thank Louise Casey for her report.
> 
> Of course our primary concern remains the welfare of the survivors and victims of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham.
> 
> Since the publication of the Jay Report, the council has begun to take measures to improve the support for victims, bringing in new management, and to tighten licensing controls.





> Sadly, as the report today makes clear, we have not been able to do enough, quickly enough.
> 
> In light of this report, the Council’s Cabinet announced earlier today that they take responsibility for the failings and are stepping down as Commissioners come in to Rotherham.
> 
> We welcome their appointment and look forward to working with them to improve services for all of Rotherham residents.





> The council has today written to the Department for Communities and Local Government to ask the Commissioners to start their work as soon as possible, and to seek further details about how the new arrangements will work.
> 
> We will keep the public informed of developments as they occur over the coming days.
> 
> ...



Shouldn't really strip mine this sort of statement for sub-text, but I don't see any sign of unhappiness that someone else will be responsible for taking the shovel to the shitheap.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 5, 2015)

Should be kommisarrs  
Chris read and others desrve to be shitting themselves on a hard chair in a windowless room while the peoples kommisar question them


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 5, 2015)

The problem is like the one already showing at Doncaster MBC that even though government commissioners take the reins they will only succeed in moving the bullying, harassment and sexism under a different banner. 
The local authority is still full of managers unfit for purpose, many are in positions of power and influence not through ability or qualification but by being promoted purely because of length of service. The attempt to recruit  suitable and able staff from outside is usually a non starter because all other possible employees will not approach the job because of the tales of bad management, coersion and a I know better than you attitude that seeps through these boroughs like acid.
I also find it incredulous that the government only intervene just before a general election when an intervention if needed was last year.
Games again played for spaces at the trough.
The entire system needs tearing down.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

Anyone here from Rotherham? It would be good to know how this is going down there. I can't imagine, really, but expect I'd be angry to have been let down by councillors and resentful of the Westminster satraps.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 5, 2015)

likesfish said:


> Chris read and others desrve to be shitting themselves on a hard chair in a windowless room while the peoples kommisar question them


Don't disagree with the sentiment but I suspect the one's holding the parcel when the music stopped are probably not the one's who were in charge during the years that this was getting out of hand.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 5, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> The local authority is still full of managers unfit for purpose, many are in positions of power and influence not through ability or qualification but by being promoted purely because of length of service. The attempt to recruit  suitable and able staff from outside is usually a non starter because all other possible employees will not approach the job because of the tales of bad management, coersion and a I know better than you attitude that seeps through these boroughs like acid.


Rotherham has actually shed a number of Senior Management since the publication of the Jay report - one or two pushed and others just getting out. I posted a link some pages back to an interview with the new head of Children's Services they appointed. He talks a good game but we shall see what if anything comes of it. Some people regard this sort of situation as an opportunity to make a name for themselves turning things round.


> I also find it incredulous that the government only intervene just before a general election when an intervention if needed was last year.


Not sure I understand this line of thought. A Children's Commissioner to oversee Children's Services in Rotherham was appointed by Pickles last October. The Casey inspection was announced as soon as the Jay report was published. If Pickles had appointed commissioners to take over the whole Council without carrying out an inspection to support the case for the need to do so he would have been open to judicial review.

Much as I loathe Pickles I also don't see this as a piece of electioneering. As I mentioned a couple of pages back Casey's report was originally expected to be published much closer to the election but in fact he has done so within a week of receiving it. I don't myself see much overt party political point scoring in the way the decision to take over the Council has been presented (as distinct from the way it's being reported in some places). In fact I can't see this [ETA: CSE and Sexual Abuse] as an issue either Labour or Tories will be wanting to exploit in any obvious way because doing so carries serious risks of blowback. Different for the smaller parties of course.

More broadly I'm struggling a bit with the idea that the most important aspect of yesterday's events is their possible impact on the election.


> The entire system needs tearing down.


Quite agree.


----------



## SaskiaJayne (Feb 5, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> The attempt to recruit  suitable and able staff from outside is usually a non starter because all other possible employees will not approach the job because of the tales of bad management, coersion and a I know better than you attitude that seeps through these boroughs like acid.


I always wonder about this. Whenever this sort of thing occurs & they say they are going bring in new people, where do they get suitably qualified people? Most people want to live reasonable lives & very able people normally have good jobs at somewhere they like living. I can't see many people wanting this sort of job.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 5, 2015)

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/northumbria-police-charged-20-people-8587632

Newcastle- similar back story to Rotherham - the west end of Newcastle is a big pakistani area where most of the blokes are from - lots of friction over the past 30 years- this could get messy.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 5, 2015)

The racial aspect is worrying. Do you think the police are particularly targeting this racial group?


----------



## treelover (Feb 5, 2015)

Pegida UK's first U.k March is in Newcastle in the near future.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 5, 2015)

I think they were attempting to tip toe round the issue which has made things worse when its exploded.
 The casey report was meant to find poor work lessons must be learned yadda yadda yadda but its more holy fuck the whole things really fucked.
  To be honest south yorkshire police and rotherham council are doing pretty good to be set alight at this point.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 5, 2015)

Sprocket. said:


> As appalling as the council's part in this is folks don't forget the other party in inaction is none other than South Yorkshire's finest.
> It's not as though they haven't got previous!




Just as Sprocket.  said yesterday, let's not forget the Cops 

Otherwise I think the analysis from Lurdan is good and insightful.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 6, 2015)

interesting
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31163189


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 6, 2015)

To clarify the situation with Rotherham Cabinet resignations.

According to a Rotherham Council Statement on Thursday two Cabinet members, Paul Larkin (Council Leader since last September) and Mahroof Hussain have resigned from the Cabinet and also as Councillors. John Doyle has resigned from the Cabinet but remains a Councillor. As originally announced (but slightly misrepresented in a lot of the reporting) the others have so far only given notice of intent.


> The rest of the Council’s Cabinet confirmed yesterday (Wednesday) their intention to resign their positions as soon as transitional arrangements are put in place.



As yet it is unclear when the Commissioners (apart from the Children's Commissioner who is already in post) will be taking over. There is a formal process - technically Pickles announced that he was 'minded' to appoint Commissioners. Rotherham were asked to respond by 18th February before he 'announced his decision'.  (There is no doubt about the outcome - this is all about warding off judicial review. In different circumstances a Council might mount a legal challenge to being taken over). In a statement on Thursday Rotherham's interim Chief executive said she had already


> written to the Department for Communities and Local Government, urging them to  confirm urgently who the five Commissioners who will take over the running of the Council will be and to ensure they are in place as soon as possible.


There will however be a period of time before Commissioners are appointed and installed.

It will be interesting to see what happens at the two sets of Council elections (this years which are going ahead and those also planned for next year). Along with any other Councillors standing down in May this will presumably see an end to the political career of former Mayor Barry Dodson who was charged last December with indecently assaulting a 13 year old girl in 1987. Dodson stood down as Mayor and resigned from the Labour Party last summer but is still an independent Councillor.


----------



## likesfish (Feb 6, 2015)

Milliband needs to read the report and anyone guilty in the report needs to be kicked out bfore they can resign form the party its not a political thing more a leadership thing you failed and you failed horribly now fuck off


----------



## twentythreedom (Feb 6, 2015)

BBC 



> *Rotherham abuse scandal: South Yorkshire PC dies after car crash*
> A police officer understood to be under investigation by a watchdog in relation to the Rotherham child abuse scandal has died following a car crash.
> 
> South Yorkshire PC Hassan Ali, 44, died in hospital nine days after he was hit by a car in Sheffield on 28 January.
> ...


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2015)

Coverage in the Sheffield star here

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local/breaking-rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-policeman-killed-1-7093216



> A serving police officer at the centre of an undercover probe into the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal has died after being hit by a car, The Star can exclusively reveal.
> 
> PC Hassan Ali had been referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission after it was alleged he twice asked a Rotherham sexual exploitation victim out on a date.
> 
> ...



SYP are not happy about this, and have issued a nasty rebuke on their site

http://southyorks.police.uk/news-syp/chief-constable-responds-todays-media-coverage



> Chief Constable David Crompton has issued the following message internally to all officers and staff following today's media coverage concerning PC Hassan Ali. He wishes to share this message with the public.
> 
> "I am aware of the concerns expressed by staff who have read the story first published online today by The Star newspaper following the tragic death of PC Hassan Ali.
> 
> "Whilst I respect the freedom of the press, I also wish to make it clear that I will be writing to the editor of the newspaper to express my concerns about the way the story has been handled."



Comments sections on FB and on news sites relating to this are full of really obvious cops.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2015)

Shame they didn't go after the perpetrators of child abuse in the same way that they go after miners/protesting OAPs/the child victims of systematic rape/journalists


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 6, 2015)

If this is one of the officers referred to in a story in the Independent this week


> The police officer has been also accused of passing information on to abusers in the town.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2015)

Lurdan said:


> If this is one of the officers referred to in a story in the Independent this week



This can't be true! The legions of copper commentators say how he was friends with people from every section of the community, was such a good Muslim, lowered his gaze whenever a female passed etc


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> This can't be true! The legions of copper commentators say how he was friends with people from every section of the community, was such a good Muslim, lowered his gaze whenever a female passed etc


I imagine for South Yorkshire Police 'not yet being investigated by the IPCC' is the gold standard.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2015)

Lurdan said:


> I imagine for South Yorkshire Police 'not yet being investigated by the IPCC' is the gold standard.



There are police on a police forum and even on the Sheffield Star website justifying the predatory behaviour of the copper on the basis that the victim of child rape was 17 and so fair game. So a combination of accusations of racism and 'she is fair game' - how did we get to the point of thousands of kids being raped in the first place again?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 6, 2015)

Meanwhile...

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...bly-low-standard-in-south-yorkshire-1-7093330



> Policing of child abuse in South Yorkshire is still ‘at an unacceptably low standard’, a new report has claimed.
> 
> The latest damning report into child sexual exploitation in Rotherham accused Rotherham Council of being in ‘resolute denial’ about last year’s independent Jay Report, which found 1,400 children had been abused in the town over a 16-year period.
> 
> ...



Fucking scum


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 6, 2015)

J Ed said:


> There are police on a police forum and even on the Sheffield Star website justifying the predatory behaviour of the copper on the basis that the victim of child rape was 17 and so fair game. So a combination of accusations of racism and 'she is fair game' - how did we get to the point of thousands of kids being raped in the first place again?


Indeed.

Obviously there is no contradiction in someone being well liked or respected by colleagues and doing bad stuff and it's fair to note that failing to form an inappropriate relationship with a victim of abuse, while well out of order, is not quite at the level of, say, finding a victim with abusers and only arresting her. (*Puts away world's smallest violin*). IMO the more serious allegation (if it's him) would be 'passing information to abusers'.

Obviously his death doesn't stop any IPCC investigation, particularly given that another officer who allegedly failed to act despite knowing about it has also been referred.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 7, 2015)

Andrew Norfolk writes about PC Ali in today's Times. He was apparently *not* the officer referred to in Norfolk's story earlier this week (picked up by the Independent, which I quoted from back here, and mentioned above). That officer was described by Norfolk as "corrupt" as "having sex with victims" and as having "regularly passed information to abusers targeting vulnerable children for sex". 

PC Ali instead was one of the 10 officers the IPCC agreed to investigate last year, in his case for alleged misconduct.

Norfolk's story about PC Ali (google cache link) :



> A police officer who was under investigation for alleged misconduct linked to the Rotherham sex-grooming scandal has died after a car accident.
> 
> PC Hassan Ali, 44, had been placed on restricted duties while allegations against him were examined by the independent police complaints commission (IPCC).





> The neighbourhood officer was off duty and crossing a road when he was involved in a collision with a car in Sheffield. He died on Thursday.
> 
> It can be revealed that he was once in regular contact with a violent convicted offender suspected of targeting and abusing more than a dozen under-age Rotherham girls, some of whom were made pregnant by him.





> One of the man’s former child victims said that her abuser often spoke to PC Ali, always from a public phone box, when she was missing from home and with him.
> 
> The same officer was involved in an extraordinary deal in March 2000 under which the man agreed to hand the pregnant 14-year-old girl to police at a petrol station after receiving an assurance that he would not be detained.





> Also involved in discussions with the abuser’s family during the same incident was Jahangir Akhtar, the former deputy leader of Rotherham council. He was related to the man, then in his mid-twenties.
> 
> Mr Akhtar resigned from his senior council role and stood down as vice-chairman of the South Yorkshire police and crime panel in 2013 after his role in the handover was revealed by The Times.





> He has insisted that he spoke to the man’s mother at the request of the police. He denied knowing that incident was linked to child sexual exploitation.
> 
> Police and local authority staff have faced severe criticism since an inquiry found last year that 1,400 children had been abused in the town over 16 years, mainly by groups of men of Pakistani origin.





> This week a government-ordered inspection report accused the council of being in collective denial about the scale and extent of its failings.
> 
> PC Ali, a police officer for 18 years, was one of ten serving or retired officers under investigation by the watchdog over their handling of sex-grooming cases.





> The inquiry comes after referrals made by the South Yorkshire force. He was the subject of four complaints from two individuals.
> 
> They included claims that he twice asked a sex-grooming victim on a date, when she was aged 17 and 21, despite knowing of her abuse. The complainant described his conduct as “inappropriate and totally unprofessional”.





> The Sheffield Star reported yesterday that PC Ali was the subject of a police “monitoring operation” before his death, which the force believes was a “tragic accident”. David Crompton, its chief constable, described him as “a well-liked officer whose colleagues are devastated by what has happened”.
> 
> This week The Times revealed that another police officer was the subject of a complaint referred to the IPCC, linked to his alleged corrupt relationship with groups of abusers.





> It was revealed that two councillors, one of them a serving member, has been referred to the National Crime Agency over alleged involvement with child sex exploitation.
> 
> The two councillors were the subject of concerns raised during an inspection of Rotherham led by Louise Casey, the director-general of the government’s Troubled Families programme. Her report found that staff and councillors failed to acknowledge and tackle the endemic crime pattern because they feared being branded racist.





> Eric Pickles, the communities secretary, stripped the council of many of its powers and a team of five commissioners will be sent to run the authority.



(The incident referred to involving former Councillor Jahangir Akhtar concerns the victim known as 'Jessica' who Andrew Norfolk originally wrote about in August 2013. (That story can be found at this link). The violent criminal referred to is Arshid Hussain, the subject of this Daily Mail story).


----------



## Sirena (Feb 7, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-rotherham-inquiry-dies-hit-by-car-hassan-ali

It was just the denial that this was 'a hit job'......


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2015)

Sirena said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-rotherham-inquiry-dies-hit-by-car-hassan-ali
> 
> It was just the denial that this was 'a hit job'......


tbh my first thought was 'what a convenient car crash' then my second was 'wait, thats not how it works' as they are totally used to covering up, getting away with anything in court. But I can see why they denied it anyway, it does _look _very convenient


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

Same thought here: why deny something that wasn't alleged? 
It's all stinky though; doubt we'll ever get the truth of it. Very sad for PC Ali if all he was ever guilty of was a questionable sense of boundaries.


----------



## Sirena (Feb 7, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Same thought here: why deny something that wasn't alleged?
> It's all stinky though; doubt we'll ever get the truth of it. Very sad for PC Ali if all he was ever guilty of was a questionable sense of boundaries.


I wonder if he stepped in front of the car...?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Same thought here: why deny something that wasn't alleged?
> It's all stinky though; doubt we'll ever get the truth of it. Very sad for PC Ali if all he was ever guilty of was a questionable sense of boundaries.


because you know everyone will be thinking it.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> because you know everyone will be thinking it.


They'll all be thinking it because that's the default.


----------



## Sirena (Feb 7, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> because you know everyone will be thinking it.


This is another one where everyone in the world was thinking it....

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/05/archer.politics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Coghlan

but it was just the tragic end to a disgraceful tangle...


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 7, 2015)

Sirena said:


> This is another one where everyone in the world was thinking it....
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/05/archer.politics
> 
> ...


Dear God, I'd forgotten that. But yes.


----------



## phildwyer (Feb 7, 2015)

Sirena said:


> This is another one where everyone in the world was thinking it....
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jul/05/archer.politics
> 
> ...



That Monica Coghlan must have been the unluckiest woman in the world.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 8, 2015)

There was a strong rumour, I stress rumour going in the stands at the match at Rotherham yesterday that PC Ali was run over by his own brother!
The rumour mill is in full flow at the Millers it seems. I will do a bit of digging when the next shift arrive later.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> Same thought here: why deny something that wasn't alleged?
> It's all stinky though; doubt we'll ever get the truth of it. Very sad for PC Ali if all he was ever guilty of was a questionable sense of boundaries.


and a green cross code violation


----------



## Spirit Of Slade (Feb 9, 2015)

bluescreen said:


> I hate what's been going on. I don't think there is anyone around who doesn't. What I'm questioning is that people are seeking to make political capital out of it.



Yes, what utter cunts all those people were for highlighting a problem and seeing through the solution.

The only politicians that should be allowed to discuss the problem, are the ones we agree with, even if they are complicit in the whole debacle.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 18, 2015)

From the latest Private Eye a story about Rother Valley MP Sir Kevin Barron



Spoiler











via reddit 

The statement that Denis MacShane says he was never "approached by constituents who were victims of child abuse" is an interesting choice of words. As mentioned earlier in this thread


> while he was in office [he] was one of those written to in 2009 by the charity CROP (now PACE) giving a detailed account of how a CSE case they were very concerned about was being mishandled by Social Services.
> 
> That letter from CROP with victims names redacted can be found online here.





> "The former MP said he has no knowledge of the letter" - Yorkshire Post


http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news...-on-rotherham-grooming-11-years-ago-1-6913834


----------



## J Ed (Feb 23, 2015)

You cannot make this shit up.

An awards ceremony in Rotherham for police this year.






https://www.facebook.com/southyorks....245483.25941498096/10152699396428097/?type=1



> FORCE NEWS: Officers awarded at Rotherham’s annual ceremony
> 
> Officers and staff who went above and beyond the call of duty to protect and serve the public have been recognised for their efforts at South Yorkshire Police’s Rotherham district awards.
> 
> The annual awards, which launched in 2007, were held at Rotherham United’s New York stadium on Friday 20 February, where individuals along with community partnerships were honoured for their outstanding contributions to the town’s police force. A number of District Commander Commendations were also issued on the night to officers and staff for exceptional work.



Those with faceache accounts can see how the good denizen of South Yorkshire regard this behaviour, that isn't surprising, what is more telling is the replies of some obvious coppers to objections to an award ceremony being held while South Yorkshire Police continue to cover up child rape on an industrial scale. Brass fucking necks.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 26, 2015)

So the Labour PCC has come out swinging... against the fact that pictures of the ceremony were posted on facebook (not that it happened in the first place). Oh, and he attended.



> Dr Billings said: “I did go and talk to the district commander and the team before the awards and they did wrestle with the decision to hold it or not and they decided they would go ahead.”
> 
> Chief Supt Jason Harwin, Rotherham district commander said the force ‘recognise that people must be held to account’ over the Rotherham scandal but added: “We also need to recognise when people do a good job and promote the exceptional work that takes place every day.



It's not like thousands of kids have been raped for profit or that the police cover up is ongoing or anything...


----------



## J Ed (Jun 25, 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...hild-sexual-exploitation-inquiry-300-suspects



> *Two current or former Rotherham councillors *are among up to 300 men suspected of grooming and sexually exploiting girls as young as 12 in the South Yorkshire town, according to the National Crime Agency (NCA).


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 25, 2015)

J Ed said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...hild-sexual-exploitation-inquiry-300-suspects


A mere six months after it was announced that "Britain's answer to the FBI" (ahem) would be investigating those two current or former councillors!

#swiftjustice


----------



## dylanredefined (Jun 25, 2015)

DaveCinzano said:


> A mere six months after it was announced that "Britain's answer to the FBI" (ahem) would be investigating those two current or former councillors!
> 
> #swiftjustice



 Real life isn't a TV show. As much as I'd like them to get a kicking till they confess and then gut shot and left to bleed out in a mass grave. Investigating
stuff takes times especially after they have had years to cover things up.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 6, 2015)

Majority of Rotherham child exploitation suspects are white, new report claims.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...uspects-are-white-claims-new-report-1-7392637


----------



## belboid (Aug 6, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Majority of Rotherham child exploitation suspects are white, new report claims.
> 
> http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...uspects-are-white-claims-new-report-1-7392637


interesting/sad/bloody typical that the Star decides that a report showing the majority of offenders are white is merely a 'claim', whereas the report that showing massive levels of abuse by Asian men was stated as a simple fact.


----------



## J Ed (Aug 6, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> Majority of Rotherham child exploitation suspects are white, new report claims.
> 
> http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...uspects-are-white-claims-new-report-1-7392637



Makes the claim that the council, social services and police were ignoring CSE because of PCgonemad look even more ridiculous


----------



## killer b (Aug 6, 2015)

as the first comment on the article says, that report covers all CSE including within families - in a town that's 92% white british, you'd expect the majority of abusers to be white.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm gonna join the EDL as I fully expect them to be livid by this new development.


----------



## killer b (Aug 6, 2015)

What has this report changed?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 6, 2015)

killer b said:


> What has this report changed?



In the minds and actions of who?


----------



## killer b (Aug 6, 2015)

If anything it supports the Jay report - Rotherham has a 3.47% asian population, accounting (according to this new report) for 24% of the sexual exploitation.

The spin on that story (which is lifted directly from a local newspaper) is blatantly political.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 6, 2015)

killer b said:


> If anything it supports the Jay report - Rotherham has a 3.47% asian population, accounting (according to this new report) for 24% of the sexual exploitation.
> 
> The spin on that story (which is lifted directly from a local newspaper) is blatantly political.



The far right have recently been attempting to conflate child abuse with race/religion. It might not change anything in your mind but anything published that serves as a stick to beat that idea with is a good thing imo.


----------



## killer b (Aug 6, 2015)

Do you think this serves that purpose?


----------



## killer b (Aug 6, 2015)

Come on, you know how to read this stuff - how does a report that shows a quarter of the sexual exploitation of kids in a town is carried out by people from a community which accounts for 4% of it's population counter anyone who says there's a problem with that community?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 6, 2015)

Citizen66 said:


> The far right have recently been attempting to conflate child abuse with race/religion. It might not change anything in your mind but anything published that serves as a stick to beat that idea with is a good thing imo.


It might serve as such a stick if you were ignorant of statistics and demography, or were happy to wilfully distort. However, the stats presented by Rotherham public health, appear to show a disproportionate number of 'identified CSE offenders' are 'of Asian origin'. The total BME population being 8.1% of the population and, within that, the Pakistani/Kashmiri population being 3.1%, it is possible to say that the 'Asian' population lies somewhere between those 2 figures. Given that, the 24% 'Asian' offender rate is high, and it is important to remember that many of Prof Jay's comments about ethnicity related to those concerned with 'organising' CSE.


----------



## Lurdan (Aug 6, 2015)

The document referred to in this Sheffield Star story is a draft report which now seems to have been removed from the Rotherham Safeguarding Children Board website. As I write this it is still available in the Google cache here.

(My guess, for what it's worth, is that the report isn't finalised and was only made public by accident).

The statistics being quoted (sections 3.1 to 3.5) are taken from a report prepared by Public Health Rotherham analysing reports of abuse between 2012 and 2014. This draft report states that this is included as an appendix but it is not.

The first comment under that Sheffield Star story says that the Public Health Rotherham report covered all Child Sexual Abuse (CSA) which includes intra-familial abuse. By contrast the Jay Report dealt with Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE), using a definition which went beyond 'localised grooming', the activity which attracted the most attention, but which excluded intra-familial abuse.

This draft Safeguarding Children Board report uses the same definition as the Jay Report but quotes the Public Health Rotherham statistics as referring to CSE not all CSA. 

If that comment under the Star story is correct it would suggest that this report may be misquoting these statistics. Then again that comment itself may be bollocks.

In the absence of the Public Health Rotherham report itself it's impossible to judge whether or not there is some kind of error in how these statistics are being presented and if so what that error is.

But it seems evident that they haven't been officially published yet. It might be an idea to wait until then.


----------



## Opera Buffa (Feb 24, 2016)

Multiple convictions here, for fifteen years of abuse. Complicity and disinterest alleged on the behalf of the police and local authority, with evidence disappearing.

On the positive side, one of the fuckers got paralyzed from the waist down in a gangland shooting.



Arshid Hussain, 40, High Street, East Cowick, Goole, was convicted of 23 of the 28 charges he faced, including indecent assault and rape.

Basharat Hussain, 39, of no fixed abode, was convicted of all 15 charges he faced, including two counts of rape.

Bannaras Hussain, 36, of Bridge Close, Goole, pleaded guilty before the trial to 10 charges including rape, indecent assault and assault occasioning actual bodily harm.

Qurban Ali, 53, Clough Road, Rotherham, was convicted of conspiracy to rape, but cleared of three other charges including rape.

Majid Bostan, 37, Ledsham Road, Rotherham, was acquitted of one charge of indecent assault.

Sajid Bostan, 38, Broom Avenue, Rotherham, was acquitted of seven charges, including four counts of rape.

Karen MacGregor, 58, Barnsley Road, Wath, South Yorkshire, was convicted of of conspiracy to procure prostitutes and false imprisonment.

Shelley Davies, 40, Wainwright Road, Kimberworth Park, Rotherham, was found guilty of conspiracy to procure prostitutes and false imprisonment.


----------



## Diamond (Feb 24, 2016)

Quite frankly staggered that this went on for so long.

It's like building a culture of child sexual abuse of young girls over decades.

Amazed that this is not being discussed more by politicians too...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2016)

Diamond said:


> It's like building a culture of child sexual abuse of young girls over decades.


it's not like it, it is it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 25, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Amazed that this is not being discussed more by politicians too...



What is it about the actions of this government that makes you think they give a single solitary fuck about the suffering of vulnerable people?


----------



## bimble (Feb 25, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> I hate what's been going on. I don't think there is anyone around who doesn't. What I'm questioning is that people are seeking to make political capital out of it.



This article here is an attempt to answer that question.. The reaction to Rotherham is a typical British blame game | Deborah Orr
All I feel about this story at the moment is a sort of crushing sadness so nothing to contribute here really.


----------



## souljacker (Feb 25, 2016)

Opera Buffa said:


> On the positive side, one of the fuckers got paralyzed from the waist down in a gangland shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> Arshid Hussain, 40, High Street, East Cowick, Goole, was convicted of 23 of the 28 charges he faced, including indecent assault and rape.



I'm presuming the paralyzed one is this Arshid fella (known as 'Mad Ash' to his friends)? The court report mentioned one of the defendants appearing by video link from hospital.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

Opera Buffa said:


> Complicity and disinterest alleged on the behalf of the police and local authority, with evidence disappearing.


but the newspapers said it was the PC Brigade and their omerta. Surely they didn't lie to me?


----------



## Flanflinger (Feb 25, 2016)

souljacker said:


> I'm presuming the paralyzed one is this Arshid fella (known as 'Mad Ash' to his friends)? The court report mentioned one of the defendants appearing by video link from hospital.



I doubt many get well soon cards will be coming his way.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

Diamond said:


> Amazed that this is not being discussed more by politicians too...



Those who would normally moralise/wring their hands/demand someone do something are desperate for this to go away. 

Problematically, it hasn't and won't. 1,4000 kids in one town. It's a an astonishing figure.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

Flanflinger said:


> I doubt many get well soon cards will be coming his way.



Shame it wasn't from the waist up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> but the newspapers said it was the PC Brigade and their omerta. Surely they didn't lie to me?



I don't know what the newspapers did or didn't say but Newsnight last night interviewed the head of the CPS at the time who was clear the ethnicity of the perpetrators and the class of the victims were two of the key issues driving the disinterest of the police and politicians. Report after report - and the testimony of those trying to intevene and being told to shut their traps - indicate he was spot on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Those who would normally moralise/wring their hands/demand someone do something are desperate for this to go away.
> 
> Problematically, it hasn't and won't. 1,4000 kids in one town. It's a an astonishing figure.


fourteen thousand?


----------



## likesfish (Feb 25, 2016)

rotherham


Smokeandsteam said:


> Those who would normally moralise/wring their hands/demand someone do something are desperate for this to go away.
> 
> Problematically, it hasn't and won't. 1,4000 kids in one town. It's a an astonishing figure.



nobody gets away without being neck deep in the shit with the possible exception of the far right who did make a load of noise about this for all the wrong reasons


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don't know what the newspapers did or didn't say but Newsnight last night interviewed the head of the CPS at the time who was clear the ethnicity of the perpetrators and the class of the victims were two of the key issues driving the disinterest of the police and politicians. Report after report - and the testimony of those trying to intevene and being told to shut their traps - indicate he was spot on.


class angle I buy straight away. Always have. Fears of being called racist on the parts of the police and pols?  Well its a claim. An arse covering one. But its in the annals of truth now.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2016)

likesfish said:


> rotherham
> 
> 
> nobody gets away without being neck deep in the shit with the possible exception of the far right who did make a load of noise about this for all the wrong reasons


yeh but the far right are always neck deep in the shit anyway


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> class angle I buy straight away. Always have. Fears of being called racist on the parts of the police and pols?  Well its a claim. An arse covering one. But its in the annals of truth now.



From what this fella was saying for the police it was a case of the victims being slags/out of control/druggies etc. They just were not bothered. The fear of being called racist seems to have paralyzed other agencies like social services, voluntary orgs etc.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> From what this fella was saying for the police it was a case of the victims being slags/out of control/druggies etc. They just were not bothered. The fear of being called racist seems to have paralyzed other agencies like social services, voluntary orgs etc.


at the time much was made of that angle. A lot of hay. Because there really are whole orgs that would rather cover up rape and abuse than be thought racist. OK.

another one at the time which had me wondering why this wanker hadn't been sacked was the copper who dismissed a concern over a 14 year old as it was-his words- consensual. Absolute gall of it to say that as if he doesn't know what the law is. SYP, one of the three worst I think.


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## likesfish (Feb 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but the far right are always neck deep in the shit anyway



but they like it though


----------



## likesfish (Feb 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> at the time much was made of that angle. A lot of hay. Because there really are whole orgs that would rather cover up rape and abuse than be thought racist. OK.
> 
> another one at the time which had me wondering why this wanker hadn't been sacked was the copper who dismissed a concern over a 14 year old as it was-his words- consensual. Absolute gall of it to say that as if he doesn't know what the law is. SYP, one of the three worst I think.



yes a 14 yr old consents to a gangbang in a squat 

police couldn't be bothered confused about sexual grooming apparently unless its spelled out in black and white cops get confused
 Rotherham council were corrupt and threatened voluntary orgs that tried to raise the issue.
 social services did their normal bang up job massively overload the staff give them difficult clients zero support bang on about community tensions and step back and watch it all go to hell.


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## The Pale King (Feb 25, 2016)

The police shared a misogynistic complicity with the perpetrators. They knew the press would lap up the 'political correctness' angle though, and sure enough that's the one the BBC led with last night.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> The police shared a misogynistic complicity with the perpetrators. They knew the press would lap up the 'political correctness' angle though, and sure enough that's the one the BBC led with last night.



So the people with the arrest powers, mandate, job to have done things to prevent this- the police- are once more walking away from this pile of shit whistling with hands in pockets.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

The Pale King said:


> The police shared a misogynistic complicity with the perpetrators. They knew the press would lap up the 'political correctness' angle though, and sure enough that's the one the BBC led with last night.



Nice and neat. 

Except, it fails to address the myriad of other agencies who should have intervened and blown the whistle on the pedophiles and the police. There are a host of central and local government bodies, charities, voluntary sector bodies, 'campaigners' and so on who were either in on the misogyny (unlikely, given their political outlook) or who looked the other way for other reasons which are to do with race.


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## bimble (Feb 25, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Nice and neat.
> 
> Except, it fails to address the myriad of other agencies who should have intervened and blown the whistle on the pedophiles and the police. There are a host of central and local government bodies, charities, voluntary sector bodies, 'campaigners' and so on who were either in on the misogyny (unlikely, given their political outlook) or who looked the other way for other reasons which are to do with race.



But, several such agencies (voluntary / charities) did send reports to the police & to local government didn't they , full of detail on what they knew was going on but their information was not acted on in any way, it just went nowhere.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

bimble said:


> But, several such agencies (voluntary / charities) did send reports to the police & to local government didn't they , full of detail on what they knew was going on but their information was not acted on in any way, it just went nowhere.



No. A few individuals did. They interviewed 2 women from a local group last night - who I thought were very brave - and they tried to blow the whistle all over the shop. What they found was either indifference or sloping shoulders.

The idea that everyone was desperately getting the police to do something is simply false.

And that - along with the squeamish fear of the liberals about the issues posed - explains why this barely merits attention.


----------



## bimble (Feb 25, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No. A few individuals did. They interviewed 2 women from a local group last night - who I thought were very brave - and they tried to blow the whistle all over the shop. What they found was either indifference or sloping shoulders.
> 
> The idea that everyone was desperately getting the police to do something is simply false.
> 
> And that - along with the squeamish fear of the liberals about the issues posed - explains why this barely merits attention.



You're probably right and I was trying to make too much of the interviews with those women from the local group - and also that other bloke - who had sent reports to police & local government which (according to Newsnight) were "suppressed": Maybe it was just them, and not 'several agencies'.  
Don't disagree with what you're saying by the way - just can't face a repetition of the themes on the Cologne NYE thread, if you know what I mean.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

bimble said:


> But, several such agencies (voluntary / charities) did send reports to the police & to local government didn't they , full of detail on what they knew was going on but their information was not acted on in any way, it just went nowhere.


at the time it came out those who had spoken up were quick to say so. I seem to recall more than the 2 women smokeandsteam mentioned. Almost invariably workers 'at the sharp end' iirc. These concerns then not taken forward by higher up, or the police. And thats where I think the class angle ties in with the same police inaction. The PC Brigade was a cast iron deflector though. I bet there were even a few criminally negligent twats who did think 'better not look raciist'. But everyone involved? 1400 kids? Are we really to believe the sheer amount of people involved in the agencies orgs and policing would rather cover up abuse of the vulnerable than look racist? Cos thats what we are being asked to swallow here.


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> Are we really to believe the sheer amount of people involved in the agencies orgs and policing would rather cover up abuse of the vulnerable than look racist?


I think it's more complicated than than 'not wanting to look racist'. Look at how posters on this thread have desperately clung onto anything that looks like evidence that contradicts the idea that it's a problem with a particular community (even when, on closer examination it turned out to do no such thing). You don't even have to read back that far in the thread to see it...

I think what happened in Rotherham is at least partly a larger-scale version of that kind of thinking. Denial rather than conscious covering up.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> at the time it came out those who had spoken up were quick to say so. I seem to recall more than the 2 women smokeandsteam mentioned. Almost invariably workers 'at the sharp end' iirc. These concerns then not taken forward by higher up, or the police. And thats where I think the class angle ties in with the same police inaction. The PC Brigade was a cast iron deflector though. I bet there were even a few criminally negligent twats who did think 'better not look raciist'. But everyone involved? 1400 kids? Are we really to believe the sheer amount of people involved in the agencies orgs and policing would rather cover up abuse of the vulnerable than look racist? Cos thats what we are being asked to swallow here.



I think your first point is right - there were junior grades/frontline staff who sussed what was going on (mind you, how could you miss it?) and fed it up the chain where it was ignored/buried/whatever. 

I think your second point doesn't make sense. If everyone knew - 'the sheer amount of people involved in the agencies' - which I agree with then why was nothing done?


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> Denial rather than conscious covering up.


ahhh, denial  rather than seeing and going 'fuck that I have a job to keep and if I look racist I'll be out on my ear'. Thats the one problem I've had most with this 'pc' angle. There simply can't be that many venal worms who'd actively cover up abuse rather than look racist. If there were then hell/handbasket etc


----------



## bimble (Feb 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> ahhh, denial  rather than seeing and going 'fuck that I have a job to keep and if I look racist I'll be out on my ear'. Thats the one problem I've had most with this 'pc' angle. There simply can't be that many venal worms who'd actively cover up abuse rather than look racist. If there were then hell/handbasket etc


Yes, denial, with a view to some sort of vague greater good in a person's head, which ends up letting hundreds of children be horrendously abused for years and years.. That's better than letting it go on because of simple jobsworth self-interest is it? I don't really see why.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, denial, with a view to some sort of vague greater good in a person's head, which ends up letting hundreds of children be horrendously abused.. That's better than letting it go on because of simple jobsworth self-interest is it? I don't really see why.




believable does not equal better. 

Also I'm pretty sure the class angle would have played into the denial aspect for some 'you know what those girls are like. Lies and drugs etc' so they could rationalise it. yuk.


----------



## killer b (Feb 25, 2016)

Absolutely. Also as a rejection of the muslamic rayguns crew (that doesn't seem so hilarious on reflection does it?)


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> Absolutely. Also as a rejection of the muslamic rayguns crew (that doesn't seem so hilarious on reflection does it?)


aged well it has not. See also: Monkey Dust's peadofinder general sketches in a post saville time


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> Absolutely. Also as a rejection of the muslamic rayguns crew (that doesn't seem so hilarious on reflection does it?)


if only yer man had enuniciated more clearly then there'd never have been the great pisstake there was.


----------



## Lurdan (Feb 25, 2016)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think your first point is right - there were junior grades/frontline staff who sussed what was going on (mind you, how could you miss it?) and fed it up the chain where it was ignored/buried/whatever.
> 
> I think your second point doesn't make sense. If everyone knew - 'the sheer amount of people involved in the agencies' - which I agree with then why was nothing done?


Eh - have you actually read anything about Rotherham ?

Nothing done ? Are you mad ? This went on for well over a decade. There were reports that were buried and ignored, and then there were reports that led to 'action', seminars held, policies established, joint working parties between the various agencies and the Police set up, quarterly reports received. There's an enormous list of it in the Jay report. *And none of it led to any significant change.* Along with the inaction, every kind of 'action' was taken from bad decisions over difficult stuations through to actual corruption and complicity. Some of this 'action' was incompetent, stupid and self-defeating, some it was just for show, some of it was actively sabotaged. But good or bad it didn't deal with the problem. That's precisely what is so awful about Rotherham - it didn't get as bad as it did because 'nothing was done'.

We only know as much as we do about CSA in Rotherham *becaus*e there were people and projects who kept records and who raised concerns. One of the most alarming things is that most places in the UK do not have a 'Risky Business' project as there was in Rotherham. Without the records they kept before they were deliberately wound up, much of the belated Police investigations taking place would be impossible. That Includes the trial that's just ended. If there is a CSA problem on the scale of Rotherham elsewhere we won't know about the bulk of it because the records aren't there to start with.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 25, 2016)

Lurdan said:


> Eh - have you actually read anything about Rotherham ?
> 
> Nothing done ? Are you mad ?



I read the Jay report when it came out. From what I remember she was scathing about schools, the CPS, the police and social services. I've already highlighted the work that Risky Business did earlier.

Clearly we have different definitions of action.


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## Red Cat (Feb 25, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, denial, with a view to some sort of vague greater good in a person's head, which ends up letting hundreds of children be horrendously abused for years and years.. That's better than letting it go on because of simple jobsworth self-interest is it? I don't really see why.



Denial, in the psychoanalytic sense, is an unconscious process, that results in people not seeing what's in front of their eyes. We all do it all the time.


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## hot air baboon (Feb 25, 2016)

killer b said:


> _*I think it's more complicated than than 'not wanting to look racist'.*_
> 
> ....
> 
> I think what happened in Rotherham is at least partly a larger-scale version of that kind of thinking. Denial rather than conscious covering up.




.....well its arguable that in fact something that simple _*might*_ have some sort of behavioural impact on _*some*_ people ......recall this 2006 thread concerning Nick Griffin ending up in court ...

...OK its a nationally known neo-nazi who was saying alot of other inflammatory stuff but might not someone conclude that discretion was the better part of valour as regards certain issues from picking up the media noise, headlines & bare facts surrounding the case as it was reported  :

Do you support the prosecution of Nick Griffin?

_The charges arose out of speeches made in Keighley in 2004 which were secretly filmed by BBC journalist Jason Gwynne for a documentary on the party.

Giving evidence on the third day of his re-trial, Mr Griffin said the speeches were intended to "get people involved" in the party.

But he said he changed the theme of his speech after being approached by a woman who told him that young white girls were being given alcohol and drugs by groups of older Muslim youths.

When asked by his barrister, Timothy King QC if he was trying to direct hatred at Asians as a whole he said he was not.

He said: "This isn't a racial thing. It's not an Asian thing. It's a cultural and religious thing."

BBC NEWS | England | Bradford | BNP and leader 'no longer racist'_


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## killer b (Feb 25, 2016)

I'm not totally sure what your point is - there isn't any parallels between what Nick Griffin said there and what's being discussed on the thread is there?


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 25, 2016)

...not particularly profound beyond the idea that someone coming from a slightly naive perspective might form the opinion or mis-apprehension that raising the issue of grooming in public might land you in court......the idea that adherence to what is broadly termed "political correctness" might have a chilling effect on speech or behaviour seems to be largely dismissed on here....picking up on your quote may have been inappropriate apols if so...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> class angle I buy straight away. Always have. Fears of being called racist on the parts of the police and pols?  Well its a claim. An arse covering one. But its in the annals of truth now.



It's more publicly-acceptable than "we couldn't be arsed to protect those working class girls" from the cops, and "we're protecting our majorities/seats/wards" from the pols.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2016)

Red Cat said:


> Denial, in the psychoanalytic sense, is an unconscious process, that results in people not seeing what's in front of their eyes. We all do it all the time.



 No we don't!!!


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 25, 2016)

I really wish I hadn't read this article earlier, but it's horrendous.

Mostly focusses on the criminals and victims, but police come into it too -- anything from incompetence to corruption.

And please only read this other article if you're feeling quite strong :

I was treated as a criminal, never as a victim


----------



## happie chappie (Feb 26, 2016)

Not long enough but fucking brilliant nonetheless.

Hussain brothers jailed in Rotherham abuse case - BBC News

Rot in hell you evil cunts.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 26, 2016)

happie chappie said:


> Not long enough but fucking brilliant nonetheless.
> 
> Hussain brothers jailed in Rotherham abuse case - BBC News
> 
> Rot in hell you evil cunts.


Wow, what a massive shower of pathetic cunts.


----------



## bimble (Feb 26, 2016)

This Shelley and Karen, the procurers. It may be wrong to say so in all sorts of ways but it's true: It really hurts my head to think about them, about how they were able to do this stuff, I find it really impossible to comprehend.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2016)

bimble said:


> This Shelley and Karen, the procurers. It may be wrong to say so in all sorts of ways but it's true: It really hurts my head to think about them, about how they were able to do this stuff, I find it really impossible to comprehend.


Nothing new about the phenomenon, though. Remember Margot Metroland in Decline and Fall? But she was posh and got away with it.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 26, 2016)

bimble said:


> This Shelley and Karen, the procurers. It may be wrong to say so in all sorts of ways but it's true: It really hurts my head to think about them, about how they were able to do this stuff, I find it really impossible to comprehend.


.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 26, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Nothing new about the phenomenon, though. Remember Margot Metroland in Decline and Fall? But she was posh and got away with it.



Wasn't she also fictional?


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2016)

goldenecitrone said:


> Wasn't she also fictional?


She was, of course, but the fiction didn't come out of nowhere.


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## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2016)

'White slavery' was an obsession at the time.


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## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

bimble said:


> This Shelley and Karen, the procurers. It may be wrong to say so in all sorts of ways but it's true: It really hurts my head to think about them, about how they were able to do this stuff, I find it really impossible to comprehend.


They got away with it for a while as they were part of it, The same as they all did. What's esp difficult about them being part of it?


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## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> 'White slavery' was an obsession at the time.


I would not going doing this.


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## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> I would not going doing this.


Well, exactly. There is an aspect that is troubling beyond the sheer cynical exploitation. I don't want to go there either, but it is there and I'm sorry now to have quoted this as a counterpoint.


----------



## bimble (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> They got away with it for a while as they were part of it, The same as they all did. What's esp difficult about them being part of it?


Exactly, that's why it's awkward to admit to the fact that I find those two sticking out in my mind, in the list of those convicted.
My difficultly is of course because they are women but that just makes it more embarrassing to admit really. Maybe I like the idea that the worst things we do to each other generally depend upon a foundation of othering / dehumanisation, and in the case of these women that just doesn't seem to apply in any easy way?


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 26, 2016)

I always find people like this almost unfathomable. So base. Such grim regard for people, as if just lumps of meat to do as they will to. Very difficult to understand. I can understand many if not most criminal actions on some level, but not really this sort of thing.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 26, 2016)

I suppose its simple - if you hate/disregard someone enough, you can end up abusing them with ease. But then I hate hitler, bit i don't think I could torture him or sexually abuse him. Confused.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 26, 2016)

Ultimate exercise of power against the powerless on a street level, rather on a society level?


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## bimble (Feb 26, 2016)

This is not intended as any sort of a comparison it's really just an anecdote but:
I lived for a year in a small village in Jamaica. It took 10 months for me to understand that the place was full of very serious long term ongoing sexual abuse of young girls. Everyone in the place seemed to know about this, even those who were not actively complicit in it - the preachers at the several churches, the respected landowning families, local police, everyone. When I finally twigged and heard what people had to say it was all about the girls, what bad girls they were, what bad mothers they had and so on. This is something I still don't understand to be honest, but should have learnt something from. The lure of a 'free' cab ride / hot dinner / line of coke is not irrelevant though, either there or here, so maybe get rid of the hunger for that and you might have a start.


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## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2016)

It does sound as if the girls in question lacked affection and that made them vulnerable to people who seemed to be paying them attention.


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## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

bimble said:


> This is not intended as any sort of a comparison it's really just an anecdote but:
> I lived for a year in a small village in Jamaica. It took 10 months for me to understand that the place was full of very serious long term ongoing sexual abuse of young girls. Everyone in the place seemed to know about this, even those who were not actively complicit in it - the preachers at the several churches, the respected landowning families, local police, everyone. When I finally twigged and heard what people had to say it was all about the girls, what bad girls they were, what bad mothers they had and so on. This is something I still don't understand to be honest, but should have learnt something from. The lure of a 'free' cab ride / hot dinner / line of coke is not irrelevant though, either there or here, so maybe get rid of the hunger for that and you might have a start.


Why do you do this - it's clearly intended as a comparison. FFS.


----------



## bimble (Feb 26, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> It does sound as if the girls in question lacked affection and that made them vulnerable to people who seemed to be paying them attention.


That is a part of the story for sure.


----------



## BigMoaner (Feb 26, 2016)

Yeah you have the raw vulnerability and poverty of the victims, and presence of some slime of men who will exploit that. A perfect storm.


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## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2016)

It could be self-reinforcing, this business of being in care. I remember at school being very subtly steered away from friendship with girls from the 'Home' because they were 'too knowing, old beyond their years'. Looking back on it now, I'm horrified by the implications - both because of what that suggests about what they'd already suffered and because the social ostracism must have exacerbated their situation. Oh and the sheer bloody blind prejudice. Especially that, which I reckon is a major reason the polis never did anything.


----------



## bimble (Feb 26, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> Why do you you do this - it's clearly intended as a comparison. FFS.


Should I have not mentioned that ? Irrelevant because it was far away? Maybe. I don't know.

It was a personal observation of systemic child abuse going on for years under the blind eyes of 'authority'.
My intention was just to say that even though I've seen it in microcosm I still don't understand, finding out about it just completely threw me.

But you're right, I was attempting a comparison. If only so far as that
1) it's very easy for everyone in power to know what is going on and still not care, if on balance it's easier to blame the girls from 'bad homes'. And also
2) that if the girls did not need 'free' food / cab rides they may possibly have been better able to escape such exploitation.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2016)

bimble said:


> Should I have not mentioned that ? Irrelevant because it was far away? Maybe. I don't know.
> It was an observation of a systemic of child abuse going on for years under the blind eyes of 'authority'.
> My intention was just to say that even though I've seen it in microcosm I still don't understand, finding out about it just completely threw me.
> 
> ...


Just stop saying things whilst _saying that you're not saying them_, then backing off them then defending them - that cause problems.

Edit: as does the sort of suggestion in your opening lines. Disgusting. I thought that you said that you'd had enough of that game?


----------



## bimble (Feb 26, 2016)

ok.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 26, 2016)

What's your problem with the anecdote, butchers?


----------



## bimble (Feb 26, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> What's your problem with the anecdote, butchers?


It's not the anecdote he's cross about it's me pretending that it was just an anecdote. And that's fair dues.
Not sure what 'disgusting' opening lines he's on about though. Unless just that, the It's just an anecdote don't mind me pretence.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 27, 2016)

Jesus, I can understand why people are circumspect about posting on here when people leap down their throat for the way they frame a statement rather than for the substance of it.

Serious/stupid question: why is the race of the perpetrators even relevant?
The press are regularly focusing on it: the stories we hear about are Pakistani taxi drivers targeting white girls. Don't they also target Pakistani girls? Perhaps we don't hear about that so much because of omerta. The shame is massive. Don't white taxi drivers also target vulnerable white girls and pass them round? If we're not hearing so much about the latter, is that down to selective racism of the police? And even if it is Pakistani taxi drivers targeting white girls, why does that bother anyone more than white taxi drivers doing it?

There does seem to be a bit of primitive othering going on - but if the Rotherham victims are typical rather than just more vocal (though heaven knows it's been hard enough for them to get heard) perhaps the othering came from the perpetrators too.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> It's not the anecdote he's cross about it's me pretending that it was just an anecdote. And that's fair dues.
> Not sure what 'disgusting' opening lines he's on about though. Unless just that, the It's just an anecdote don't mind me pretence.



You don't know - really Despite repeatedly doing it?



> Should I have not mentioned that ? Irrelevant because it was far away? Maybe. I don't know.



Yet another _accidental _slippage that socialists and lefties ignore things if black people are involved. Getting tiresome now _anthropologist_. 
_
Maybe. I don't know._


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## BigMoaner (Feb 27, 2016)

Do fuck off, one anecdotal post and your on her like a rash.  She's no more tiresome then you pal.


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## bimble (Feb 27, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> You don't know - really Despite repeatedly doing it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Blimey. Not at all. That's just bonkers - total projection on your part, honestly. There's absolutely no reason why socialists or anyone else would know about what was going on there in that village and the colour of the people involved is totally irrelevant to the point I was making about possible parallels.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> It's not the anecdote he's cross about it's me pretending that it was just an anecdote. And that's fair dues.
> Not sure what 'disgusting' opening lines he's on about though. Unless just that, the It's just an anecdote don't mind me pretence.


Best not to give a fuck what he thinks. HTH.


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## Casually Red (Feb 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> It's not the anecdote he's cross about it's me pretending that it was just an anecdote. And that's fair dues.
> Not sure what 'disgusting' opening lines he's on about though. Unless just that, the It's just an anecdote don't mind me pretence.



It's him telling you he owns the board and to bow down to his magnificence . Or otherwise face his wrath . It's your choice whether to tell him to go fuck himself or not . But you should realise he's been doing this very stuff  to other posters for years on end . And most of those not in his little circle jerk do tell him. Btw that was his little gang of sycophants who went after you on that other thread. This is a continuation of that grudge. And he'll do it again, nothing surer .

I have him on ignore after being on the receiving end of it one time too many so usually can't see his howls and wails when they're aimed at me .


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## Casually Red (Feb 27, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Best not to give a fuck what he thinks. HTH.



Not one solitary fuck .


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## bimble (Feb 27, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> Not one solitary fuck .


Ye but I do give a fuck, wouldn't if it was Gromit for instance but in this case I do.


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## Casually Red (Feb 27, 2016)

It's your fuck to give . Not trying to tell you what to do with it .


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## Casually Red (Feb 27, 2016)

bluescreen said:


> Jesus, I can understand why people are circumspect about posting on here when people leap down their throat for the way they frame a statement rather than for the substance of it.
> 
> Serious/stupid question: why is the race of the perpetrators even relevant?
> The press are regularly focusing on it: the stories we hear about are Pakistani taxi drivers targeting white girls. Don't they also target Pakistani girls? Perhaps we don't hear about that so much because of omerta. The shame is massive. Don't white taxi drivers also target vulnerable white girls and pass them round? If we're not hearing so much about the latter, is that down to selective racism of the police? And even if it is Pakistani taxi drivers targeting white girls, why does that bother anyone more than white taxi drivers doing it?
> ...



I dunno . I think the race bit is relevant only so far as one of the reasons for inaction stated was " political correctness " . Although I think myself it's a lot more complicated than that, and it's been dumbed down to explain something a lot more complicated vis a vis community relations  .

I also think these particular pedophiles were a lot more than just taxi drivers. They were primarily gangsters by the sound of things. Organised violent criminals . The outward role of taxi driver is a perfect cover for all sorts, declaring income, hours to suit, mobility  and transporting the victims . While a lone taxi driver is perfectly capable of being a sexual predator these guys were able to instill real fear even in the parents of victims. And were totally brazen . I remember reading of one young victim who told her parents it was better she went with the pedo brazenly waiting outside her home at night than for them to face the consequences if she didn't. That's blatant gangsterism . So it's a stark difference between that and your average white taxi driver, unless he's a gangster too.

To me it looks like an ethnically based criminal gang or gangs, that were permitted to get away with all sorts . And the reasons for that were numerous but interlinked . But bottom line may well have been a fear of them causing mayhem if their activities were checked. Mayhem that might have seen a "community leader" or 2 make accusations of police racism as an explanation as to why young Asian men were out rioting all of a sudden. Something gangsters could organise very handily. . And I wouldn't be at all surprised..them being crims...if quite a few of them weren't grasses as well. As is almost always the case when criminal gangs of any ethnicity seem to have mass immunity for years on end .

 So the reasons for police inaction may well go beyond mere class, " political correctness " , gender...seriously..it's like left and right alike want to put their particular obsessions front and centre as an explanation for EVERYTHING . And that while it certainly includes those elements ...as well as the so called " political correctness " , it boils down ultimately to a cosy set of relationships between politicians , cops and crims to maintain the status quo in Rotherham. Rotten local politics, rotten cops, rotten crims and rotten relationships between them all.


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## co-op (Feb 27, 2016)

Casually Red said:


> IThe outward role of taxi driver is a perfect cover for all sorts, declaring income, hours to suit, mobility  and transporting the victims .



Drug distribution and selling too. Minicabs seemed to all be dealing in London in the 90s when I was out and about a lot. If you were youngish and going out almost always got offered drugs - coke/e/weed - when I was in the cab. especially weekends.


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## Casually Red (Feb 27, 2016)

co-op said:


> Drug distribution and selling too. Minicabs seemed to all be dealing in London in the 90s when I was out and about a lot. If you were youngish and going out almost always got offered drugs - coke/e/weed - when I was in the cab. especially weekends.



A certainty. Perfect cover for the lot .

Eta

And the alarm bells about at least some of these guys having a relationship with the cops should be going off all over the place .


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

bimble said:


> Blimey. Not at all. That's just bonkers - total projection on your part, honestly. There's absolutely no reason why socialists or anyone else would know about what was going on there in that village and the colour of the people involved is totally irrelevant to the point I was making about possible parallels.


I don't get then the point of this:



> Should I have not mentioned that ? Irrelevant because it was far away? Maybe. I don't know.



It's suggesting that i think it's irrelevant - that it has nothing to do with the complex interplay of culture and power that it represents and has no parallels in rotherham (or cologne) - and that to correctly suggest (as you admit yourself) that your bringing it up was not just an anecdote with no impact on the story that you've been involved in on here for the last two months is yet another example of head-burying. When, in fact, i'm just trying to get you to be open about why you posted it and what it means. That defence, the one i quoted was terrible and does exactly what i suggest above. It even has the trademark _i don't know_ get-out.

Let's get back to this country - and if we're going to use stuff like you posted, let's do it openly and without this ongoing barely submerged agenda.


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## chilango (Feb 27, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> Yeah you have the raw vulnerability and poverty of the victims, and presence of some slime of men who will exploit that. A perfect storm.



...and one that is repeated day after day all across the country.


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## BigMoaner (Feb 27, 2016)

chilango said:


> ...and one that is repeated day after day all across the country.


yep. awful.

one that i think doesn't get talked about much is physical/emotional abuse of children. equally as damaging/grim. i once saw a man threaten to punch his kid in a petrol station for picking up a sweet. pure rage and hate in his face, grabbed her by the scruff of the neck. she was about four FFS. the look on her face will stay with me forever. terror and confusion. i rang childline afterward to see if they could do something with CCTV. christ knows what would have happened if she'd done somethign really "wrong".

i've always said that after my family, i will leave the rest of my money to NSPCC.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> I always find people like this almost unfathomable. So base. Such grim regard for people, as if just lumps of meat to do as they will to. Very difficult to understand. I can understand many if not most criminal actions on some level, but not really this sort of thing.



The problem is that - regardless of any psychiatric or psychological pathology - some people live by the principle of looking after No. 1, whatever has to be done by them to do so.
If you then factor in the possibility of the women themselves having psychiatric and/or psychological pathology - for whatever reason - it becomes merely surprising that more people aren't nicked for their inhumanity to others.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2016)

BigMoaner said:


> I suppose its simple - if you hate/disregard someone enough, you can end up abusing them with ease. But then I hate hitler, bit i don't think I could torture him or sexually abuse him. Confused.



In around 2/3rds of sexual offences - contact or solicitation/pandering offences - the offender has a history of being abused. I'm not talking "invent something for your court defence" abuse, I'm talking about previous medical and social services history of being abused.
One of the only slight bright lights about Rotherham is that some of the victims are receiving trauma counselling. It should, however, be all of them. That counselling *may* prevent the cycle being perpetuated.


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## likesfish (Feb 27, 2016)

Also I guess having vulnerable victims who would make poor witnesses with a lousy relationship to the police doesnt really help. Cops are more likely to help somebody asking for police help and prepared to make statements.
  If the  victim withdraws statements doesnt turn up isnt in very easy to ignore/forget when you have a 100 other things to be doing its not as if cops are sitting around waiting for stuff to do.
Spread out the reports complaints over time and they get missed.
  Plus a gang of pakistani men targeting young white girls.
  Their was a lot of denial when the story broke on here . I bet police middle management saw this as a nightmare scenario investigate turns out to be bollocks gets crucified as leading a racist witchunt. Turns out to be real get crucified for not acting sooner.


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Also I guess having vulnerable victims who would make poor witnesses with a lousy relationship to the police doesnt really help. Cops are more likely to help somebody asking for police help and prepared to make statements.
> If the  victim withdraws statements doesnt turn up isnt in very easy to ignore/forget when you have a 100 other things to be doing its not as if cops are sitting around waiting for stuff to do.
> Spread out the reports complaints over time and they get missed.
> Plus a gang of pakistani men targeting young white girls.
> Their was a lot of denial when the story broke on here . I bet police middle management saw this as a nightmare scenario investigate turns out to be bollocks gets crucified as leading a racist witchunt. Turns out to be real get crucified for not acting sooner.


I think you need to re-read the thread.  And again, the doors are truly open for you now aren't they? That's strike three i believe.


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## J Ed (Feb 27, 2016)

Surely given the extent of the collusion between the local government, police and the rapists which happened to an extent that there were police and councillors who raped the girls we can now conclude that political correctness was a post-hoc justification rather than a reason for not investigating in the first place.


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## butchersapron (Feb 27, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Surely given the extent of the collusion between the local government, police and the rapists which happened to an extent that there were police and councillors who raped the girls we can now conclude that political correctness was a post-hoc justification rather than a reason for not investigating in the first place.


We could as soon as we read the jay report - which we can then use to view the other stuff going on (yes, i'm talking about cologne) and then is being used by people to say political correctness it's killing us etc


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## chilango (Feb 27, 2016)

I'm not going to get through the backlog of posts... can anyone briefly summarise where we're at?


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## co-op (Feb 27, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Surely given the extent of the collusion between the local government, police and the rapists which happened to an extent that there were police and councillors who raped the girls we can now conclude that political correctness was a post-hoc justification rather than a reason for not investigating in the first place.



I have always thought the 'South Yorkshire Police were too PC' defence just never rang true. I haven't had dealings with them personally except at a couple of football matches but they were clearly a thuggishly un-PC force even by normal police standards. Lead force in attacking the miners, totally responsible for Hillsborough and for the whole rotten farrago of lies that surrounded Hillsborough for years, the idea that they were too worried about offending liberal racial sensitivities to investigate this rape gang is just obviously crap. That story was always about deflecting blame and running the story as being about Muslims and PC liberals taking us to hell in a handcart.

Like you say, the story is literally completely incredible now. They knew. They just didn't care or were being bribed off (remember this is the force whose officers stole money out of the pockets of dying Liverpool fans and then blamed them for their own deathes).


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## Bernie Gunther (Feb 27, 2016)

On the other hand if the culture of the force in question happens to be characterised by racist fuckwits (as well as that force being negligent and very likely also corrupt), then "we were paralysed by fear of the PC brigade into ignoring systematic child rape that was going on right in front of us over several years" probably sounds a great deal more convincing as an excuse when tried out for size on your fellow racist fuckwits, whether they're cops or cop allies like the trash press, than it does to normal people who aren't racist fuckwits.


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## Lurdan (Mar 19, 2016)

Interesting profile of Jayne Senior in The Times together with an extract from her forthcoming book. Its very long so will need to be split across more than one post.

The Rotherham whistleblower - Times (Paywalled  but... )



Spoiler: Text of the article - Part One



Janice Turner

For more than ten years, youth worker Jayne Senior told police and social services about the horrific abuse inflicted on girls in Rotherham by ruthless gangs – but she was repeatedly ignored. Risking imprisonment, she turned whistleblower to expose the scandal in The Times

As Arshid Hussain was sentenced to 35 years, Jayne Senior’s triumphant “Yes!” rang across the court room. All around her young women wept and hugged. They had been children when Hussain and his two brothers Basharat and Bannaras raped, abducted and abused them.

Yet for years, no one, not police, councillors nor social workers, believed their stories or tried to bring to justice this criminal gang who claimed to “own Rotherham”. No one except – as she was called by one barrister – “the infamous Jayne Senior”.

A few days later at her home, Senior shows me intelligence she compiled on child sexual exploitation in Rotherham back in 1999. Yet it took a decade and a half for it to help form the prosecution case that had the three Hussain brothers and three associates receive prison sentences totalling 102 years.

It was this information and other details about exploitation that Jayne Senior shared with the Times chief investigative reporter Andrew Norfolk. Risking imprisonment, she became the whistleblower who provided evidence to blow the whole Rotherham scandal open.

Her book, Broken and Betrayed, will surely be made into a film, with Senior played by Keeley Hawes or Sarah Lancashire. It is a shocking and unexpectedly gripping story, part David Peace northern noir, part Lynda La Plante with a working-class, maverick heroine avenging the abuse of under-age girls by taking on powerful men.

Senior, 51, is warm and open, greets me with a hug and urges me to stay for “tea”, meaning the spag bol her husband, Paul, is cooking in the kitchen. Their plasterer son, 27, has come by for a chat – their oldest, 31, is in the Army – and 11-year-old, Sam, a champion diver, is just back from school.

For years, Senior would leave this happy hubbub, grab her coat and car keys and head off into the night to meet a terrified teenager. The girls’ stories burn through the book. Anne, who was beaten almost to death with a clawhammer when she told her pimp she was pregnant; Katrin taken up onto the moors, given a shovel and told to dig her own grave; Debbie ordered to recruit another girl to make a snuff film. Girls as young as 11, doused in petrol, raped in dirty flats, trafficked around northern towns to have sex with a waiting line of men; girls told they will be murdered or their mothers raped, if they ever dare complain.

Senior started meeting them when she joined Risky Business, a youth project set up by Rotherham council to deal with girls in danger of sexual exploitation. Care homes were their main concern. Taxi drivers – mainly older, Pakistani-origin men – would collect young girls, seduce and pimp them out. A few cases reached court, but the victims – bolshy, brassy and looking older than their years – were portrayed in court as hardened “child prostitutes”, a term Senior detests for its implied consent and career choice. The men invariably went free.

Around 2001, Risky Business noted a change. Fewer girls came from Sheffield, the nearest big city with a sizeable red light district, more from Rotherham itself. They were younger too: some only ten. Not all were in care or chaotic families: one was a doctor’s daughter. Yet all were troubled, bullied and friendless. And their stories had a similar arc: they’d be chatted up by a boy their own age, bought a McDonald’s, drinks or soft drugs. Then he’d introduce them to an older Pakistani-origin man, who had a car, nice clothes, money and charm.

“I always say that somewhere out there there’s a Hogwarts for groomers,” says Senior. “Because you can go to London, Sheffield, Doncaster, Barnsley … and it’s the same tactic.” The older men made them feel special with presents and questions about their lives. The girls – trusting, guileless children – would reveal where their parents worked, all about their friends and pets, where their granny lived. “One girl said to me, ‘He knew everything there was to know about me. All I knew was his nickname.’”

Once the girl was ensnared, this attentive boyfriend would turn nasty. He’d say he needed money, the girl must repay drinks and presents with favours. She must sleep with his friend, or brother, come to a certain house … The beatings would start, then the threats. “Tell anyone and we’ll hurt your mum. You told us where she lives …”

The girls who came to Risky Business trusted Senior and her team because they were “only” youth workers; unlike police or social workers, they had no statutory powers. They didn’t judge, just listened. And from these confidences Risky Business traced patterns. The same men kept cropping up. The girls told of forthcoming drug deals, guns hidden in cars. Rotherham had a regular under-18s disco where older men swarmed outside, taxis idling ready to whisk off girls. “It was an organised network,” says Senior.

But Rotherham police dismissed their information as hearsay. Until finally a seemingly sympathetic officer proposed Risky Business post its intelligence on the police computer in a high-security folder called Box 5. Senior diligently filed regular reports. Yet still the police did nothing and Senior believes underlying their inertia was disgust for the girls. They were “dirty little slags”, the worst type since they’d “even go with Pakis” and had brought it on themselves.

“We didn’t have little victims who sat there and cried,” she says. “They put a mask up, and sometimes that is quite verbal, quite aggressive. But behind every aggressive child is the one that’s asking us for help.” Besides, for Rotherham police, which didn’t have a specialist vice squad, prosecuting these men would be hard and time-consuming, with terrified victims who often made poor witnesses: all that effort might glean few convictions.

Nor was Risky Business respected by Rotherham’s social workers. These middle-class graduates looked down on youth workers as amateurs. They accused Senior of not following protocols and being too close to the girls. “We were there to be advocates and voices for these young people,” she says. “Our job was to challenge authority. I remember being shouted down in a meeting because a head of year said [of a victim], ‘Here we go again. Every time this girl opens her mouth a lie comes out.’ I caused a stink when I said, ‘I don’t believe she is lying.’”

Senior grew up in the same streets as these girls, her father an engineer at a steel foundry. The year she turned 17, her mother died suddenly and Jane found out she was pregnant by Paul. They had a second son, but full-time motherhood bored her so she started working at a youth club. She’d left school with a few CSEs but is smart, driven and energetic, so 20 years later – aged 39, working full-time and still breastfeeding Sam – she decided to do a law degree. She thought it would stop policemen fobbing her off.

In 2000, the Home Office launched a nationwide report into child sexual exploitation, sending investigators into a number of troubled towns, Rotherham included. A Yorkshire lawyer called Adele Weir (now Gladman) was sent to Risky Business to go through all its files and compile ten profiles of victims and six pimps. Weir was astounded by the sheer volume of abuse. She drafted a ten-page interim report that blasted Rotherham’s council leaders and police for failing to act, then sent it to South Yorkshire’s chief constable and the University of Bedfordshire, which was number-crunching the Home Office data.

All hell broke loose. Weir was given a harsh dressing-down by senior Rotherham police. Then, that Monday morning, Senior arrived at work to discover a burglary. No locks had been broken but case files had gone while others were deleted from hard drives. Odder still, minutes of a meeting about Weir’s report – over whom she was allowed to send it to – had been changed. The burglary was never solved. Nor was the deeper mystery: why did Weir’s findings never appear in the final 2004 Home Office report, Paying the Price?

After this bombshell, both Weir and Senior had veiled threats from police: “We know where you live”; “Make sure that car is well insured …” And Weir, bullied, her work suppressed, left the council. But Senior carried on: “I wouldn’t shut up. I thought that if I kept talking about the girls, what was happening, eventually someone would have to do something.”





> But Rotherham police dismissed their information as hearsay. Until finally a seemingly sympathetic officer proposed Risky Business post its intelligence on the police computer in a high-security folder called Box 5. Senior diligently filed regular reports. Yet still the police did nothing and Senior believes underlying their inertia was disgust for the girls. They were “dirty little slags”, the worst type since they’d “even go with Pakis” and had brought it on themselves.


(...)


> Then Senior finally met a police officer, Sergeant Rupert Chang, who took Risky Business seriously. Investigating a grooming gang preying upon a local park, he asked why she’d never reported anything before. Senior told him about Box 5. Chang was mystified. Box 5, he discovered, was a digital wastepaper bin: police saw nothing Senior reported.


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## Lurdan (Mar 19, 2016)

Spoiler: Text of the Times article - Part Two



She gave frequent presentations to civic leaders or police officers, her audience always rapt and outraged, but nothing ever came of it. Later, councillors, including leader Roger Stone and head of child services Shaun Wright (later South Yorkshire police and crime commissioner), would deny they knew Rotherham had an abuse problem. Senior flicks to a photo on her phone of Wright at a Risky Business barbecue posing with one of her girls: “They knew …”

At a one-day conference on child sexual exploitation, Rotherham MP Denis MacShane (who would also later claim ignorance) listened to expert submissions, then stood up. “If only we could all just learn to get along and accept the ways of different cultures,” he said. Senior believes that MacShane implied that it was racist and divisive to point out that in Rotherham sexual abuse was carried out by Pakistani heritage men against white girls. Senior was aghast.

Indeed, she believes that silence compounded the problem. She argued the council should speak to imams and local leaders about the disgust certain Pakistani-origin men harbour for white girls. Refusing to confront it made grooming a “normal” part of growing up in Rotherham, amplifying racial tensions.

“One Asian guy,” she says, “was appalled by these men and would meet me for a chat to give me information. But his dad told him as a teenager, ‘If you want to sow wild seeds, make sure it’s with white girls.’”

Senior was often chided by social workers and Labour councillors for highlighting abusers’ ethnic background. When she proposed grooming be discussed in a local school, a teacher suggested Asian girls leave the classroom. She refused. Indeed, she notes that around 30 of the eventual 1,400 reported cases were Asian girls. One was raped by three men and their relatives, but when she sought help, an Asian social worker said it was her own fault for dressing immodestly. Senior recalls an Asian father hearing his daughter had been anally raped, so she’d remain “pure” for marriage: “He was sobbing, as much as my dad would have been. But the first thing he said was, ‘This will fetch shame on the family.’”

Then Senior finally met a police officer, Sergeant Rupert Chang, who took Risky Business seriously. Investigating a grooming gang preying upon a local park, he asked why she’d never reported anything before. Senior told him about Box 5. Chang was mystified. Box 5, he discovered, was a digital wastepaper bin: police saw nothing Senior reported. Shocked, Chang sat down and read every Risky Business file, then did what no officer had done before – he sought evidence.

Operation Central was launched, homing in on a gang of men, also suspected of drug offences. Four girls who’d suffered horrific abuse – orally raped in the street, beaten, pimped out, threatened with torture – agreed to give evidence and Risky Business staff protected them from intimidation. Eight men were charged, and five eventually convicted, winning Senior a police award for her work.

Yet, as the Casey report was to note, Senior’s success provoked professional jealousy in Rotherham social services. Risky Business was ordered to close the cases of 60 vulnerable girls and hand them to social workers. Among them was Laura Wilson. Senior had known Laura since she was ten, when she’d been driven down the motorway by a gang of men, while another girl was forced to swallow a spiked drink. Stories followed of her giving sexual favours in the back of takeaway shops. Then in her mid-teens she got involved with Ashtiaq Ashgar, had a baby by him and, after an argument, told his mother about their relationship.

Laura was found dead in a canal, stabbed many times. As news of the murder broke, Rotherham’s service manager approached Senior. “I didn’t ask you to close Laura’s case,” she said. “Yes, you did,” said Senior.

When Rotherham council published its serious case review, Risky Business was blamed for Laura’s death for neglecting to pass on warnings. Senior was devastated. It was, she believed, a blatant cover-up, a grave slur on her own reputation and she felt that the council used it as an excuse to close Risky Business. Senior left.

Around 2005, Senior went to three local newspapers anonymously about the abuse network: “But they weren’t interested.” Moreover, she knew the penalty for leaking official documents was prison. And while most Risky Business files had been seized, suppressed or mysteriously stolen, she’d saved many at home. It was never intentional. Being a bit of a Luddite, Senior hates reading long reports on screen and always prints them out. And as a restless workaholic – “I don’t know how to sit with my feet up and watch telly” – she would put a file on her memory stick to toil over until the early hours. She copied key emails, too: “I had a second sense I’d need them one day.”

Senior heard about Andrew Norfolk’s investigations on sexual abuse in other northern towns through a girl she was working with. Her parents, let down by social services, had spoken to Norfolk. They were impressed by his diligence and urged Senior to meet him. After he won her trust, promising never to reveal her as a source, she shared the information she had gathered through her work with vulnerable children.

As Norfolk’s reports were published in The Times, showing police and council wilful inaction, Senior was terrified of arrest. Later she learnt Rotherham council spent £20,000 trying to find the source of previous leaks.

But the reports brought the abuse into the spotlight and two investigations began.

A report by Professor Alexis Jay estimated that Rotherham had 1,400 cases of child exploitation and said only one group had tirelessly tried to help these girls: “There should be more people like Risky Business,” an abuse survivor said in Jay’s report. The second report, by Louise Casey, declared Rotherham council unfit for purpose, describing a culture of bullying, sexism and cover-ups; council leaders resigned en mass, although Shaun Wright resisted for several weeks.

“The day that Alexis Jay’s report came out was a rollercoaster of emotions,” says Senior. “Because it wasn’t just vindication for me. I couldn’t stop crying, and it still upsets me now when I think … So many children, so many lives damaged, and for what?”

The question echoes through the book. Rather than spend so much money and effort covering up a problem, why did the council not simply deal with it? The answer lies in the nature of Rotherham. Like other towns with sex abuse networks – Rochdale, Derby, Bolton – it is small enough for back-scratching and nepotism, while as a Labour one-party state for decades, there was no opposition to illuminate its failings and corruption.

Senior still sees known abusers driving around the town, and is often rung by girls who have still told no one. She helps runs a victim support group and shows me a text from a woman coaxed to attend, having not left her home for five years. Many of the women end up with other violent men, since that is all they’ve ever known; others recoil from any relationship at all.

This is only the beginning. Now the spotlight is shifting from perpetrators to those who allowed them to operate with impunity. In court, a girl alleged that she was raped by Jahangir Akhtar, council deputy leader, who is related to the Hussains. Akhtar is alleged to have been present when an under-age girl was handed over to police at a petrol station with a promise not to prosecute. He denies raping the girl or any other wrongdoing or misconduct. Two Rotherham councillors and several police officers are believed to be under investigation. The most mysterious is the case of PC Hassan Ali, who died after being hit by a car crossing a road the day he learnt he faced an inquiry.

After years of being ignored, silenced and discredited, the infamous Jayne Senior is now “Rotherham’s Erin Brockovich” or “The Times’ Deep Throat”, as the local paper called her. (Andrew Norfolk had to explain it was the nickname of the Watergate informant; she thought she was being compared to a porn star.) And she has decided to go into local politics, standing as a Labour council candidate in May.

“I want to live and work in a town where our children are safe,” she says. “I’m not going to pretend I’m a politician. But what I do know is people and I’m not afraid to challenge difficult things.”





> Yet, as the Casey report was to note, Senior’s success provoked professional jealousy in Rotherham social services. Risky Business was ordered to close the cases of 60 vulnerable girls and hand them to social workers. Among them was Laura Wilson. Senior had known Laura since she was ten, when she’d been driven down the motorway by a gang of men, while another girl was forced to swallow a spiked drink. Stories followed of her giving sexual favours in the back of takeaway shops.





> Then in her mid-teens she got involved with Ashtiaq Ashgar, had a baby by him and, after an argument, told his mother about their relationship. Laura was found dead in a canal, stabbed many times. As news of the murder broke, Rotherham’s service manager approached Senior. “I didn’t ask you to close Laura’s case,” she said. “Yes, you did,” said Senior.


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## Lurdan (Mar 19, 2016)

Spoiler: Text of the extracts from Jayne Seniors book



Jayne Senior on the struggle to get the police to listen

As an example of how quickly grooming can turn to abuse, the story of a 14-year-old girl called Lianna springs to mind. She came to our attention because she was seeing a man who was known to us as an abuser.

Her mother was in a violently abusive relationship which Lianna found hard to endure, so she left, and when I met her she was living in a homeless hostel. I asked her about her “boyfriend”.

“Oh, he’s just lovely,” she said, a smile appearing across her painted lips. “He takes me out everywhere, buys me stuff, fags and booze. And people are dead scared of him.”

“Oh,” I said, “why’s that?”

She leaned forward. “Guess what?” she said. “The other night when we were out in his car, he opened the glovebox and showed me what was inside.”

“What did he show you, love?” I asked. “A gun,” she replied. “How about that?!”

“You know,” I said, trying to keep calm, “that’s all part of the way he’s trying to control you. You’ll find that one day you’ll be very, very frightened knowing that he has a gun. And men who run around with guns in their cars are not nice people.”

“Nah,” she said, laughing, “he’s lovely. He’d never do owt to hurt me.”

A little over three weeks later I met her again, and I’ve never known anyone go from “groomed” to “abused” in such a short space of time. This time, there was no make-up or bright and breezy attitude. She sobbed hysterically and shook as she told me what had gone on.

“He was giving me cans of lager and a few cigs,” she said, “and all that were fine. Then, one night when we were sitting in his car, he said I owed him 200 quid for the booze and fags. He said he had drug dealers after him, and he owed them this money.”

She broke down into terrified sobs. “Now he says if I don’t get the money, he’s gonna tell my mum!”

I tried to calm her down, but it was useless. In a whisper, she told me the rest of her story. As she spoke I could feel nausea rising up into my throat.

“He said his brother had the solution to it,” she said. “He said he didn’t like it, but his brother said that if I have sex with him, he’ll pay the debt off ’cos he’s got more money than his brother …”

So they’d taken Lianna to a flat above a shop – a place that had been mentioned to us before – and her abuser’s brother had had sex with her, as planned. When it was finished, she got back into her abuser’s car and he drove her home. As she opened the door, he grabbed her wrist.

“Now you only owe us £195,” he sneered. “And if you don’t pay it …” He tapped the glovebox, indicating what was inside it.

So she was in a real predicament. How could she tell her mother that she owed all this money and could be in serious danger if she didn’t pay? In addition, how could she explain that she’d tried to pay it off by having sex with a man much older than her? I encouraged her to talk to the police, which she did. Their advice was that she “shouldn’t hang around him any more”. Easier said than done, of course, so I also drew up a Child Protection referral, which went to social care to be assessed, and her mother was informed. The money was not paid, her mother refusing to give in to blackmail, but from then on Lianna lived in fear of her life.

We were telling the police everything we heard. Risky Business had a steering group and a key players group, attended by senior police and social services representatives. At this latter meeting we would regularly share information and intelligence on those we believed were abusing young girls across Rotherham: names, nicknames, car registrations, taxi numbers, mobile phone numbers, takeaways, shops, relationships between abusers – you name it, if we’d been given it we shared it at the key players meeting. We were constantly told by senior police officers that it was “hearsay”. “Where’s the evidence?” they’d always ask.

Our police representative was Inspector Anita McKenzie, who headed the Rotherham police district’s community safety unit. She was a quietly spoken woman, approaching retirement. At first I had faith in her because she was female and I thought she would have empathy for the girls whose abuse was being detailed in our reports.

I prepared a report to everyone present for every meeting that highlighted all our concerns, including abuser identification, hotspots, girls at risk and links between girls and abusers. At one meeting we even shared intelligence on a drug deal due to take place at a supermarket car park late one evening. Unfortunately our intelligence was not considered good enough to be evidence and no action was taken. We heard later that the drug deal had indeed taken place.

I always took my own minutes because more often than not I would give a detailed description of something that had happened, only to see it reduced to one line in the official minutes.

Eventually we had so much information collated that Anita suggested we do something formal with it.

At the beginning, I can’t claim that the way we were collating information was anything like official. We’d had no training in this; we simply wrote down what we were told and checked it against other sources of information. For example, I look back at one of my reports now and see that some information about a newsagent’s had been passed to us. Four young women – two 16-year-olds and two aged just 13 – were buying cheap cigarettes from this place and were being asked for sexual favours by the workers in the shop in return for free alcohol. Another young woman had offered to make a statement to police about this. Now, that’s what we’d been told. If I could’ve visited the shop myself and made inquiries, I would’ve done. But we weren’t professional detectives, nor did we claim to be; we were just a group of people deeply concerned about a pattern of abuse in our town which seemed to grow on a daily basis.

With hindsight, perhaps our well-meaning approach at the beginning of Risky Business was part of the problem and the reason that Rotherham police refused to take us seriously. In their eyes, we were “just youth workers”, clueless amateurs who were presenting a whole lot of information to them without any evidence.

But the point was – and still is– that we weren’t the police. Surely it is their job to obtain evidence based on what they are told. If a person sees a crime being committed in the street and has a good description of the offender, is he also expected to chase after him and apprehend him? Of course not. So why was it different for us?

Anita McKenzie was constantly telling me that the information we were collating was “not strong enough to be evidence”. If I mentioned “rape” or “assault” to her when I was discussing one of our girls she’d always correct me with the words “alleged rape” or “alleged assault”. I accepted that, but what I found puzzling was the seeming lack of will by the police to do anything about such allegations themselves.

Still, we continued to supply the police and social services with information in the hope that somewhere along the line the abusers would be brought to justice.

I see in our bundle of files that two of the girls mentioned above in relation to the newsagent’s had “been giving oral sex to two Asian males aged 16 and 18 within the Clifton Park area of Rotherham”. I passed on the phone number of one of these males and his nickname, plus the fact that his number was linked to the sexual exploitation of another girl on our books.

Where possible, we would provide a description of the alleged abuser and indicate his ethnicity. If he’d been white, I’d have said that. The fact that almost all those abusing girls were of Asian origin meant that in the vast majority of cases I put down “Asian” as ethnic origin. I remember the intakes of breath when we mentioned ethnicity at steering group and key players meetings, accompanied by the occasional shaking of heads.

“Are you sure you should be mentioning this, Jayne?” “Is ethnicity really relevant?” “Jayne, don’t you think it’s a bit racist to say what their background is?”

No, I didn’t. As I said, if they’d been white males I’d have mentioned it. Like the man in the street who witnesses a crime, I assumed the police would want to know as much detail about the criminal as possible, including ethnicity. Back then, I didn’t think that was wrong. Others obviously felt differently.

© Jayne Senior 2016. Extracted from Broken and Betrayed: the True Story of the Rotherham Abuse Scandal by the Woman Who Fought to Expose It, published by Pan Books on Thursday.





> We were telling the police everything we heard. Risky Business had a steering group and a key players group, attended by senior police and social services representatives. At this latter meeting we would regularly share information and intelligence on those we believed were abusing young girls across Rotherham: names, nicknames, car registrations, taxi numbers, mobile phone numbers, takeaways, shops, relationships between abusers – you name it, if we’d been given it we shared it at the key players meeting. We were constantly told by senior police officers that it was “hearsay”. “Where’s the evidence?” they’d always ask.


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## kingfisher (Mar 19, 2016)

J Ed said:


> Surely given the extent of the collusion between the local government, police and the rapists which happened to an extent that there were police and councillors who raped the girls we can now conclude that political correctness was a post-hoc justification rather than a reason for not investigating in the first place.


 + the secret services (national) - who have der fingers in everyfing -


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## Libertad (Mar 19, 2016)

kingfisher said:


> + the secret services (national) - who have der fingers in everyfing -



Not on this thread you don't.


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## kingfisher (Mar 19, 2016)

Libertad said:


> Not on this thread you don't.


 fairplay not as if mi5 would have any informers agents officers working in pakistani communities in post-industrial northern towns is it - Carry on Noncing!, no bombs though - sorry, its important it needs to be discussed, il butt out - peace


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## Lurdan (Mar 20, 2016)

Another excerpt from Jayne Senior's forthcoming book in The Times. Long so in two parts.

‘A lot of men abused these girls’ - The Times (paywalled but...)



Spoiler: Text of part one of the book excerpt



March 25, 2009 was Operation Central “Strike Day’’, the day that the alleged abusers would be arrested. One of the most important steps would be the identification parade at a police station — an event the girls dreaded, even though it would take place behind darkened glass.

Eight men were arrested. (There could, and perhaps should, have been many more. A lot of men abused these girls; nameless men, men with families, with kids of the same age at home.) Of course, as soon as they were charged the men knew exactly who would be giving evidence against them.

The moment the girls were finished they had to return to their temporary addresses out of the area. During the period between the arrests and the trial, there were a couple of incidents that made us wonder whether their whereabouts had been discovered. One involved Charlie, who was living somewhere quite remote and the manager of the hostel rang the local police to let them know a couple of out-of-area taxis had turned up and were lingering at the end of the road.

In her early teens, long before Operation Central, Charlie fell in with a group of abusers and was going missing for days on end, as her mother tried desperately to locate her. One evening her mother was informed that Charlie was missing again, but this time she knew where to look . . . This is her story, in her own words:

_I phoned up social services and said, “I can see her in the field, she’s with some Asian guys. Can you send the police?” I took my kids home and then my friend came back with me. We saw one of the men making her give him oral sex. Then everything just went haywire. I shouted, “Get off my daughter, you black bastard, she’s only 13!” I shouldn’t have said that, I know, but it just came out. They cleared off.

We phoned the police — it took an hour for them to arrive. They eventually came in a dog van, and I thought, “Surely they can’t take her in there?” One officer said to her, “If you go back to them men, everyone will think you’re a little slapper.”

She was taken to the Nottingham area, in the middle of nowhere. I wasn’t allowed to know the address or the home number. I couldn’t see or speak to her for a full week. They took my statement, and because I’d called the guy a black bastard the police officer said I wouldn’t be a credible witness.

I wasn’t allowed to talk or tell anyone what had happened. I was told that if I did they would take the other kids off me. I wasn’t allowed to tell even family. When Charlie went to open up to me they stopped her. I was a witness._

The Strike Day arrests didn’t succeed in acting as a deterrent. Below, from late 2009, is a referral form on a boy who had fallen in with a group of abusers who were using him to deal drugs and hook in young girls.

_[An abuser] allegedly involved in a serious sexual assault on another child has made threats towards [the boy], stating he will hang him from a tree in Clifton Park. [The boy] allegedly has a drug debt owed to [an abuser]. Information received is that [the boy] is also dealing drugs around the Ferham area on behalf of adults of concern, including [the abuser].

[The boy] was allegedly assaulted over the theft of cannabis. His mother was informed they needed to pay £20 per day until the £1,000 was paid in full. This boy was just 12 years old._

Not long after this, my husband Paul, our sons Lee and Ben and two of my brothers-in-law went out for a Christmas drink. Coming out of the pub they saw a young girl walking up the street. Then a van screeched to a halt and the Asian driver shouted, “Get in, you bitch!” Paul told him to “do one”. They walked the young girl home. I reported it to the police, and rang the girl’s social worker. She said: “What were your husband and sons doing approaching a young female late at night?”

The “young female” went on to be raped with a broken bottle and will never have a baby due to the damage caused. She told me recently that the night Paul intervened she had just been gang-raped and had run off, wanting to get home to where her mother would give her a hug and make everything better.

Between the Operation Central arrests and the trial itself, a “Lessons Learned” review of the operation was commissioned by the Rotherham Local Safeguarding Children Board. This was headed by Malcolm Stevens, a senior social worker with years of experience as a government adviser.

Malcolm noted that while it was “not possible to say whether or not Rotherham has a problem of child sexual exploitation which is more significant than anywhere else”, he did say that the facts indicated “child sexual exploitation at the top end of seriousness”. He also said that the 20 charges listed against the Operation Central defendants “do not represent the full extent of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham”.

However, there was also this:

_Although the alleged perpetrators are of Asian origin and the victims are white, this is the factuality of these cases alone; nothing more can be drawn from that. It is imperative that suggestions/allusions of a wider cultural phenomenon is avoided. The BNP in Rotherham is said to have made such assertions already, in public and on its website, and that is highly regrettable._

I would argue that it is the denial of such a “cultural phenomenon” and the failure to tackle this properly that led to the British National Party and the English Defence League making political capital out of the situation.

That said, the review was very favourable to Risky Business, which made what happened with Operation Czar harder to understand. This was a similar scenario to Central, in that girls were being abused in and around a public park, except this one was Ferham Park, in a predominantly Asian area of Rotherham.

The referrals and information around the girls involved made for uncomfortable reading. One, aged 14, was being picked up in taxis, driven across Yorkshire and made to have sex with Asian males. For this she was paid £10. Another hung around in Ferham Park, waiting for various males to pick her up and have sex with her. Once, she was thrown in the canal as a threat. Yet another was seen getting into cars with different men. She was threatened with having her throat slashed. This girl was 13 at the time.

Howard Woolfenden, a new senior manager at the Children and Young People’s department, put Jill Holbert, a locality manager, in charge of the social care side of Operation Czar. This was the role Risky Business had performed in Operation Central yet it was decided that it wouldn’t be part of this investigation. I argued against this but Holbert put three social workers on the job. The same day some of the girls were introduced to these social workers, they were removed from their homes. The girls were furious and blamed us — because we were the ones they’d trusted in the first place.

Shortly after, Holbert asked to meet me and Christine Brodhurst-Brown. She had a list of the girls connected with Operation Czar and she told us, in no uncertain terms, that all these cases would be closed to Risky Business, “because now they have a social worker”. I protested loudly, but the deal had been done. It was also suggested that we close down the cases relating to Central but I argued that one vigorously, given that the trial was so close, and managed to keep those girls on our books.





> The Strike Day arrests didn’t succeed in acting as a deterrent. Below, from late 2009, is a referral form on a boy who had fallen in with a group of abusers who were using him to deal drugs and hook in young girls.
> 
> _[An abuser] allegedly involved in a serious sexual assault on another child has made threats towards [the boy], stating he will hang him from a tree in Clifton Park. [The boy] allegedly has a drug debt owed to [an abuser]. Information received is that [the boy] is also dealing drugs around the Ferham area on behalf of adults of concern, including [the abuser]._


_



			[The boy] was allegedly assaulted over the theft of cannabis. His mother was informed they needed to pay £20 per day until the £1,000 was paid in full. This boy was just 12 years old.
		
Click to expand...

_


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## Lurdan (Mar 20, 2016)

The rest of the excerpt from Jayne Senior's book.



Spoiler: Text of part two of the book excerpt



One of the Czar cases we were forced to close was that of Laura Wilson — and just a few weeks before the trial was to begin, in the autumn of 2010, one of our staff got a call from Laura’s mother, Maggie, who told us that her daughter was missing. Now, a number of our girls would go “missing”, but usually for only a night or two. They tended to turn up — having spent time with their abusers — looking rough and dirty, but at least we could do something for them. But when Laura stayed missing, alarm bells rang. She was extra-vulnerable and she’d just had a baby. She wasn’t the sort to walk out on her child.

In her mid teens Laura started to date an Asian boy a year older than her by the name of Ashtiaq Ashgar. He was on our database of people we believed to be involved in CSE [child sexual exploitation] in that he was befriending and grooming girls of his age who would then be passed up to older men. He came from a strict background and didn’t tell his parents that he drank alcohol, smoked cannabis and had relationships with several other girls alongside Laura. Of course, she was obsessed with him so when she found out what had been going on behind her back, she hit the roof.

To take revenge on her boyfriend Laura slept with his married friend, Ishaq Hussein, who was 22. The inevitable happened and Laura became pregnant, eventually giving birth to a girl at the age of 16. She decided to keep the child and, against the odds, restarted her secret relationship with Ashtiaq Ashgar.

Perhaps because she’d had a baby and wanted some solidity in her life, or possibly because she wasn’t thinking straight, she decided to tell Ashtiaq’s family what was going on. His mother apparently went mad at her and hit her with a shoe. Then she decided to pay Ishaq’s family a visit and tell them the truth. We now know that Ashtiaq sent a text to Ishaq very soon afterwards, telling him he was “gonna send that bitch to hell”.

None of us could settle, knowing Laura was out there somewhere and very probably in danger. Brodhurst-Brown had just gone on holiday, but had asked me to update her if there was any news.

On the Monday of the following week, an officer from the Public Protection Unit rang me. “Jayne,” he said, “I have to tell you that we’ve found a shoe covered in blood.”

My heart sank. The following day my phone rang again. It was Sergeant Paul Newman. A body had been found in the canal. “It’s not been identified,” he said, “but it’s a young female. It’s not looking good at all, Jayne.”

I felt sick. I rang Simon Perry, Christine Brodhurst-Brown’s manager, and he said he’d come down to the office immediately. The staff were in pieces.

Perry hadn’t been there five minutes when there was a knock at the door and in came a police officer from the Safer Neighbourhood team. I asked him if there’d been any update.

“Well,” he said, “I’m afraid that it is Laura they’ve found, but we’re not releasing that today until she’s been formally identified. There’s another thing I should warn you about, too . . . we’ve been told that we have to take this down the honour-killing route. We can’t mention anything to do with CSE.”

I couldn’t believe it. An “honour killing”? Like she’d somehow had a hand in her own murder? All the agencies were saying this child was being groomed for abuse from the age of 10 and now here she was, dead, at just 17. Laura was a vulnerable girl who was taken advantage of and paid the price for her involvement with a group of abusers and their associates. The honour killing tag was completely inappropriate.

An emergency meeting was called at Rotherham borough council’s offices. There were a lot of grim faces around that table. I received a text from Sarah, who worked for Risky Business. She was forwarding a text she’d just received from Laura’s mum. “Please don’t let what’s happened to my baby happen to any of these other girls,” it said. “Someone has to stop this.”

Laura’s social worker was crying through the whole meeting and when it was her turn to speak she could barely get her words out. She kept going over mistakes apparently made with Laura — things that had gone wrong when she’d moved house, when she’d had the baby. She seemed to be blaming herself for everything. But it wasn’t her fault. It’s this town, I thought. This council, this police force. They’ve done nothing to protect Rotherham’s children.

It appeared that Laura had been stabbed dozens of times in a frenzied attack and there were defence marks on her arms. She had then been thrown into the canal. We heard later that she was still alive when she entered the water — the stab wounds to her head had been inflicted to keep her under.

The day after this first meeting we were called in again to decide whether there should be a Serious Case Review (SCR). Inevitably, it was found to be the only way that any such failings could be dealt with and so it was referred for approval. As we left, Jill Holbert sidled up to me.

“You know,” she said, “I never asked you to close Laura’s case.”

“Yes, you did,” I said. “That’s exactly what you said.”

“No,” she said, brazen-faced, “I never asked you to close them all.”

“You did,” I replied, flushing in anger. “I’ve got the email to prove it.”

She turned on her heel and walked away. Nice try, Jill. When the Serious Case Review was approved, I co-operated by sending in everything we’d ever had on Laura.

Meanwhile, the girls involved in Operation Czar were so traumatised by being removed from their homes without warning that they refused to speak to the police. The operation was a fiasco and was abandoned. And still the abuse, violence and intimidation continued unabated.

© Jayne Senior 2016. Extracted from Broken and Betrayed: the True Story of the Rotherham Abuse Scandal by the Woman who Fought to Expose It, to be published by Pan Books on Thursday.





> Meanwhile, the girls involved in Operation Czar were so traumatised by being removed from their homes without warning that they refused to speak to the police. The operation was a fiasco and was abandoned. And still the abuse, violence and intimidation continued unabated.


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## Casually Red (Mar 21, 2016)

Playlist of the ..largely self serving..testimonies being given to that enquiry.



Ignore the odd one or 2 titles.

Rotherham Scandal  - YouTube


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## brogdale (Nov 4, 2016)

Sentencing.

Eight men jailed in Rotherham over 'degrading and violent' child sex exploitation


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## treelover (Nov 4, 2016)

> After the men were convicted on 17 October, the National Crime Agency said it was separately investigating more than 11,100 lines of inquiry relating to non-familial child sexual exploitation in Rotherham between 1997 and 2003.
> 
> Rotherham: eight men jailed for sexually exploiting teenage girls



It looks like there are many more jail sentences to come, lots of cold sweats in Rotherham today.


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## not-bono-ever (Nov 4, 2016)

good.


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## bimble (Aug 9, 2017)

Looks in some ways quite similar, (court cases just concluded in Newcastle)
Seventeen men found guilty over Newcastle sex grooming network


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2017)

bimble said:


> Looks in some ways very similar, (court cases just concluded in Newcastle)
> Seventeen men found guilty over Newcastle sex grooming network


in which ways?


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## ElizabethofYork (Aug 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> in which ways?



Vulnerable girls and women being plied with alcohol and drugs and passed around among groups of men.

Vile.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Vulnerable girls and women being plied with alcohol and drugs and passed around among groups of men.
> 
> Vile.


yeh, i gathered that was at the core of the case - i wondered whether whether bimble had seen other similarities


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## krink (Aug 9, 2017)

one similarity is that some of the victims were in the care system.

Operation Sanctuary: Newcastle child sex network convicted - BBC News


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## Pickman's model (Aug 9, 2017)

krink said:


> one similarity is that some of the victims were in the care system.
> 
> Operation Sanctuary: Newcastle child sex network convicted - BBC News


Cheers


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## likesfish (Aug 11, 2017)

Muslim men organising rape gangs to prey on young white girls its a racists wet dream come true.
Whats it 200 men found guilty under similar cases


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## bimble (Aug 11, 2017)

likesfish said:


> Muslim men organising rape gangs to prey on young white girls its a racists wet dream come true.


yep.


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## urbanspaceman (Aug 11, 2017)

On abuse it's time to call a spade a spade

Not just Farage, Trevor Phillips weighs in today. And, at the risk of committing thoughtcrime, now so will I. The BBC used an adjective to describe this gang, presumably to indicate some shared and collective attribute. The adjective was "Asian". This is incorrect - some of the members were Turkish, Iranian and Iraqi. Being of 50% Hindu-Indian heritage myself, I get really tired of hearing about "Asian" rape gangs. I imagine Japanese bankers and Malaysian doctors do as well. There exists a more accurate descriptive adjective.


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## not-bono-ever (Aug 11, 2017)

or "cunts"


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## Orang Utan (Aug 11, 2017)

urbanspaceman said:


> On abuse it's time to call a spade a spade
> 
> Not just Farage, Trevor Phillips weighs in today. And, at the risk of committing thoughtcrime, now so will I. The BBC used an adjective to describe this gang, presumably to indicate some shared and collective attribute. The adjective was "Asian". This is incorrect - some of the members were Turkish, Iranian and Iraqi. Being of 50% Hindu-Indian heritage myself, I get really tired of hearing about "Asian" rape gangs. I imagine Japanese bankers and Malaysian doctors do as well. There exists a more accurate descriptive adjective.


I do think it's harmful to be labelling the perpetrators' ethnicity like this, but Iran, Iraq and most of Turkey are in Asia, so it's not 'incorrect' in that way.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I do think it's harmful to be labelling the perpetrators' ethnicity like this, but Iran, Iraq and most of Turkey are in Asia, so it's not 'incorrect' in that way.


That fence must be comfy for you to sit on it so


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## likesfish (Aug 11, 2017)

Its another muslim rape gang at some point it becomes obvious its a prevelant offence.
  Footballers get pissed up and get involved in gang rapes
   Squaddies get into drunken punch ups
  Black london teenage gang members stab each other.

Some muslim men like to rape underage girls in the care system


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## Casually Red (Aug 11, 2017)

I think " racists " would be a good adjective , bearing in mind their preferred choice of targets  . And according to Mohammed Shafiq the attitude that white girls in general are worthless has a lot to do with these particular pedo gangs activities and needs addressing . Rightly points out too that the vast majority of sexual abuse in the uk is carried out by white men .

Child sex abuse: Sarah Champion MP says 'consider race and culture' - BBC News


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## belboid (Aug 11, 2017)

Richard Seymour in one of his better posts - Racism and sexual abuse | Richard Seymour on Patreon


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## urbanspaceman (Aug 11, 2017)

"...Some muslim men..."

That's the thing - these characters would be considered pretty dodgy and sleazy by people in their own countries. They are indeed Muslims, but they are bad Muslims, failed in life, unobservant, sexually-frustrated, ill-educated, semi-criminal, drinking and drug-taking in violation of Muslim precepts. Their world-model is a sludgy cocktail of cherry-picked Islamic anti-kaffir attitudes, combined with archaic rural folk beliefs about women and "chastity". The cultures of the countryside and city are different - and most of the Pakistani population of England originates from Mirpur, a grim region of agricultural villages.

There's also the dislocation of being neither one thing nor the other. The mill jobs that their fathers emigrated for are long gone, and Mirpuris - lacking the Hindu community's obsession with education and talent for assimilation - find themselves adrift, the UK-born generations frequently mastering neither English nor Punjabi. Marinade with some partially-masticated race politics, so construing the abuse of these girls as payback to the racist English, and you've got yourself the toxic outlook that these men hold.


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## BigTom (Aug 11, 2017)

urbanspaceman said:


> "...Some muslim men..."
> 
> That's the thing - these characters would be considered pretty dodgy and sleazy by people in their own countries. They are indeed Muslims, but they are bad Muslims, failed in life, unobservant, sexually-frustrated, ill-educated, semi-criminal, drinking and drug-taking in violation of Muslim precepts. Their world-model is a sludgy cocktail of cherry-picked Islamic anti-kaffir attitudes, combined with archaic rural folk beliefs about women and "chastity". The cultures of the countryside and city are different - and most of the Pakistani population of England originates from Mirpur, a grim region of agricultural villages.
> 
> There's also the dislocation of being neither one thing nor the other. The mill jobs that their fathers emigrated for are long gone, and Mirpuris - lacking the Hindu community's obsession with education and talent for assimilation - find themselves adrift, t*he UK-born generations frequently mastering neither English nor Punjabi*. Marinade with some partially-masticated race politics, so construing the abuse of these girls as payback to the racist English, and you've got yourself the toxic outlook that these men hold.



Living in an area which is about 90% pakistani origin muslim families, 1st to I guess 4th generation immigrants, I have never met a UK born person without a decent command of English, at least as good on average as those who can trace their families to the UK for more than 2-4 generations. idk about punjabi or urdu as I don't speak either language so would have no idea if they are speaking it well or not when I hear them speak, but English, nah, ime everyone can speak/write in English perfectly well.
I've basically zero idea about the rest of what you've posted but that bit I've bolded just does not fit with my experience at all.


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## J Ed (Aug 11, 2017)

BigTom said:


> Living in an area which is about 90% pakistani origin muslim families, 1st to I guess 4th generation immigrants, I have never met a UK born person without a decent command of English, at least as good on average as those who can trace their families to the UK for more than 2-4 generations. idk about punjabi or urdu as I don't speak either language so would have no idea if they are speaking it well or not when I hear them speak, but English, nah, ime everyone can speak/write in English perfectly well.
> I've basically zero idea about the rest of what you've posted but that bit I've bolded just does not fit with my experience at all.



I think that most of the rest of what he posted was crap as well. Unless he is a Muslim theologian or whatever who is he to say what a bad Muslim is or isn't, and taking drugs and drinking doesn't make you a rapist nonce.


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## Casually Red (Aug 11, 2017)

BigTom said:


> Living in an area which is about 90% pakistani origin muslim families, 1st to I guess 4th generation immigrants, I have never met a UK born person without a decent command of English, at least as good on average as those who can trace their families to the UK for more than 2-4 generations. idk about punjabi or urdu as I don't speak either language so would have no idea if they are speaking it well or not when I hear them speak, but English, nah, ime everyone can speak/write in English perfectly well.
> I've basically zero idea about the rest of what you've posted but that bit I've bolded just does not fit with my experience at all.



I was watching the documentary on the Tyneside gang after the news and it showed 2 arrests and both of them had broad Geordie accents . I lived for a few years in a predominantly Pakistani area , dodgy ,rough and full of crims, and never once met anyone from that background who didn't speak English fluently . 
Once had to pick up a set of keys to my brothers flat from a Pakistani owned off licence . The owner said " ah yes..that nice Scottish fellow " . That's about the most culturally confused Pakistani I've ever met .


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## urbanspaceman (Aug 11, 2017)

Big Tom - do you deal much with the specific fraction of the community that I am referring to - the type of men who did these crimes ? And by mastery, I mean able to express themselves in standard written and spoken English. Overall in England, children of Pakistani heritage underperfom at GCSE - but in fact the situation may be worse in the North of England, as Pakistan heritage children in London perform _*better*_ than whites, pulling up the average. The reason for this is that London Pakistanis have a different story, often coming from the big, sophisticated and diverse cities of Pakistan.

Some background info:
www.insted.co.uk/raising2005.pdf
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/327406/response/812041/attach/html/2/Final%20V3.xlsx.html
Operation Sanctuary: no easy answers   (coincidentally, also uses the term "bad muslims")


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## BigTom (Aug 11, 2017)

urbanspaceman said:


> Big Tom - do you deal much with the specific fraction of the community that I am referring to - the type of men who did these crimes ? And by mastery, I mean able to express themselves in standard written and spoken English. Overall in England, children of Pakistani heritage underperfom at GCSE - but in fact the situation may be worse in the North of England, as Pakistan heritage children in London perform _*better*_ than whites, pulling up the average. The reason for this is that London Pakistanis have a different story, often coming from the big, sophisticated and diverse cities of Pakistan.
> 
> Some background info:
> www.insted.co.uk/raising2005.pdf
> ...



deal with? No, these are my friends and neighbours, I don't "deal with" anyone. afaik none of them are nonces, no. I am talking generally about the pakistani communities in Birmingham I live in/around. I don't see much written stuff, but spoken, it's really only the first generation that have difficulties with spoken English. Otherwise basically on a par with anyone else around here.
I've never spent that much time discussing where in Pakistan people's families come from but those I know who are visiting home are going to more rural areas, not to Karachi or Lahore.

I may have misread your second paragraph as a general statement about the pakistani communities from which these men emerge, as opposed to a characterisation of these men, but the way you said "mirpuris... find themselves adrift..." really reads to me like a general statement about the communities as a whole.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 11, 2017)

I think it's important to emphasise the role of racism in such cases where it's evident. Not just because it's accurate and anti racist to do so, but because it can further highlight the way right wingers so often try to minimise or deny racism on the part of white people.


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## urbanspaceman (Aug 11, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I think it's important to emphasise the role of racism in such cases where it's evident. Not just because it's accurate and anti racist to do so, but because it can further highlight the way right wingers so often try to minimise or deny racism on the part of white people.


Is your racism detector bleeping in this case ?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 11, 2017)

urbanspaceman said:


> Is your racism detector bleeping in this case ?



Certainly I recall "white bitch" being shouted at a victim from the galleries in the Rochdale trials. Ive not read loads about Rotherham but if brown people are disproportionately picking white victims then it starts to look suspicious to say the least. Scratch the surface, as I daresay some have, and there may well be racist assumptions about victims compounded by mysoginist terminology.


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## bimble (Aug 11, 2017)

Looks to me like the girls and young women they targeted were 'picked' for their vulnerability, what colour their skin less important than whether or not they could successfully be groomed bullied bribed frightened drugged into compliance.


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## butchersapron (Aug 11, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I think it's important to emphasise the role of racism in such cases where it's evident. Not just because it's accurate and anti racist to do so, but because it can further highlight the way right wingers so often try to minimise or deny racism on the part of white people.


What is the role of racism in this and other such cases?


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## urbanspaceman (Aug 11, 2017)

bimble said:


> Looks to me like the girls and young women they targeted were 'picked' for their vulnerability, what colour their skin less important than whether or not they could successfully be groomed bullied bribed frightened drugged into compliance.



They were accessible and vulnerable for sure. But racism is part of it:

news.sky.com/story/sex-abuse-gangs-view-white-girls-as-worthless-and-trash-10982586

_Some Muslim men involved in cases where young white girls have been abused view them as "worthless", the head of the UK's Ramadhan Foundation has said. Mohammed Shafiq told Sky News: "There is a minority of criminals involved in sexual abuse of children in on-street gang grooming who view white girls as worthless. "They think they can be used in this abhorrent sort of way where they can be seen as trash."

[The] President of Newcastle's Asian Society, Davender Kumar Ghai, also told Sky News "it was about race". He claimed some Muslim Asian men living "in a ghetto in the West End" (of Newcastle) "call white women trash".
_
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/newcastle-child-sex-ring-asian-men-underage-white-girls-sex-abuse-racist-crime-lord-macdonald-cps-a7885571.html
_
Britain must confront the scourge of "profoundly racist" crime exemplified by the Operation Shelter grooming case, a former head of the Crown Prosecution Service has said.

The problem must be recognised "for what it is, which is profoundly racist crime," he added.
_
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/18-predators-who-exploited-newcastles-10958912
_
Badrul Hussain [one of the perpetrators] told a Metro [ticket] inspector: "All white women are only good for one thing, for men like me to fuck and use as trash, that is all women like you are worth."


_


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## Casually Red (Aug 11, 2017)

bimble said:


> Looks to me like the girls and young women they targeted were 'picked' for their vulnerability, what colour their skin less important than whether or not they could successfully be groomed bullied bribed frightened drugged into compliance.



Well definitely their vulnerability was key to this gangs activities . But it's also pretty certain there were racist attitudes at play too . One doesn't cancel the other out . Badrul Hussein had this to say to a woman who wasn't vulnerable . Without doubt he's not just a misogynist nonce but a bigot as well .

‘White women are good only for people like me to use as trash’

I don't see why a gang of serial rapists can't be racists too . their take on humanity is unlikely to be anything other than pretty negative .


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## Thora (Aug 11, 2017)

They're not exactly unique in seeing young white poor girls chavs/slags as worthless though are they?  I think its a fairly mainstream societal attitude.  Even the police and social services didn't view them as victims.


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## urbanspaceman (Aug 11, 2017)

Thora said:


> They're not exactly unique in seeing young white poor girls chavs/slags as worthless though are they?  I think its a fairly mainstream societal attitude.  Even the police and social services didn't view them as victims.


Let's say you're right. Do the mainstream groups you mention drug, rape, kidnap, threaten and traumatise such girls ?

You make a claim - "not exactly unique" - what's the point you're making ?


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## Casually Red (Aug 11, 2017)

Thora said:


> They're not exactly unique in seeing young white poor girls chavs/slags as worthless though are they?  I think its a fairly mainstream societal attitude.  Even the police and social services didn't view them as victims.



Except mr Hussein shouted this at a female ticket inspector on the metro . That attitude went way beyond young girls in care homes .

I don't see what the big issue is here . In every community there'll be a minority who have negative opinions about others who are culturally  different...the other . Whether its racism, sectarianism , social class..whatever . Among those who have a background in a community were alcohol , pre marital sex etc can sometimes frowned upon to the extent were honour killings can occur in extreme circumstances , there's definitely going to be some negative attitudes towards those from a community were such things are run of the mill activity. Were that alone will mark someone out as different, lesser, immoral and therefore fair game to predators . racism / bigotry for the predator is just another means of self justification and looking down on their victims . Justifying their own sick behaviour towards others .


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## bimble (Aug 11, 2017)

I think CR's right, about the way in which some people whose own experience / family rules include a strict ban on sex before marriage can sometimes see other people (women) who do not live by that stricture. 
A long time ago had a conversation with someone who as far as I could tell genuinely did not understand why it would matter to me one way or the other if I had sex with him, seeing as I was neither a virgin nor married.


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## Bernie Gunther (Aug 11, 2017)

Thora said:


> They're not exactly unique in seeing young white poor girls chavs/slags as worthless though are they?  I think its a fairly mainstream societal attitude.  Even the police and social services didn't view them as victims.



It seemed fairly clear to me that these attitudes among police and social services were a significant enabler for organised abuse.


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## RD2003 (Aug 11, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> It seemed fairly clear to me that these attitudes among police and social services were a significant enabler for organised abuse.


No doubt. But there's no escaping the fact that the primary responsibility lies with the abusers.


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## RD2003 (Aug 11, 2017)

bimble said:


> Looks to me like the girls and young women they targeted were 'picked' for their vulnerability, what colour their skin less important than whether or not they could successfully be groomed bullied bribed frightened drugged into compliance.


They just usually happen to be white. I tuned into Radio 4 in the car this morning and caught some discussion of this subect. A female Muslim (I think) was pointing out that it's all been going on in Muslim families and 'communities' for a long time.

Seems like those of a certain inclination have just branched out to target those for whom they'd receive less or more reluctant censure. Obviously for religious reasons.


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## RD2003 (Aug 12, 2017)

And the same as no 'community' in this society can really control the evil bastards in their midst, can we really expect the 'Islamic community' to control theirs?


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## Casually Red (Aug 12, 2017)

I don't think so , they aren't a monolith or responsible for what every scumbag gets up to , any more than any other community. Predators will be predators at the end of the day. But spokespersons from within the Islamic community have acknowledged there are certain negative attitudes within their community to non muslim women and girls which urgently need addressed by the Muslim community . Seems there's a serious conversation needs to be had within that community according to some . The scale , the similarities and extent of it indicates there certainly is a large problem there with some attitudes that needs addressing . Sooner that conversation takes place the better .


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## crossthebreeze (Aug 12, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Certainly I recall "white bitch" being shouted at a victim from the galleries in the Rochdale trials. Ive not read loads about Rotherham but if brown people are disproportionately picking white victims then it starts to look suspicious to say the least. Scratch the surface, as I daresay some have, and there may well be racist assumptions about victims compounded by mysoginist terminology.


Its not that "brown people" are disproportionately picking white victims though. Most studies on the subject show that sexual abuse of children and young people is mostly perpetrated by people from within families, friendship circles, and in positions of trust. Therefore most abuse is perpetrated by people from similar ethnic/religious backgrounds to their victims. What is happening here is that a subsection of men from muslim backgrounds are abusing predominantly white teenage girls, and the perpetrators hold racist as well as misogynistic beliefs about the victims. It may well be a significant pattern, but it doesn't in itself change the underlying statistics, and to overstate it does a disservice to brown and muslim victims of csa and sexual exploitation, as well as the victims of white perpetrators.


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## likesfish (Aug 12, 2017)

The scale and the ethnicity of the abusers is news worthy because its diffrent.

  Its also in the polices amoung others to play up the evil racism of the gangs.
  Rather than answer why these scumbags were allowed to get away with it for so fucking long.
In one case the police classiefied a gang rape of an under age girl as consencal and turned up a party nicked them for cannabis and failed to notice obviously underage girls drugged up .


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## Dandred (Aug 12, 2017)

Every culture, and ethnicity has pedophiles, just look at the church. However, it is strange that from such a small community there are so many offenders...... Nothing to do with religion, more to do with respect of women in a certain society in general, and, how people from that culture might treat women.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2017)

1,400 estimated victims:

Rotherham abuse scandal: no charges against senior council figures


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## Sprocket. (Sep 6, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 1,400 estimatd victims:
> 
> Rotherham abuse scandal: no charges against senior council figures


Just heard this and find it deplorable, disgraceful and disappointing.
Sarah Champion has expressed her views so she will be under the spotlight again.


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## Smokeandsteam (Sep 6, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Just heard this and find it deplorable, disgraceful and disappointing.
> Sarah Champion has expressed her views so she will be under the spotlight again.



This is what the Jay report said about senior council officers. That none of them will now face charges is the clearest sign yet of an establishment cover up operation with police, senior council staff, 'community leaders' and others engaged in mutual arse covering. 

It's fucking sickening.

_"In the early years there seems to have been a prevalent denial of the existence of child sexual exploitation in the Borough, let alone its increasing incidence and dangers. 

By 2005, it is hard to believe that any senior officers or members from the Leader and the Chief Executive downwards, were not aware of the issue. Most members showed little obvious leadership or interest in CSE for much of the period under review apart from their continued support for Risky Business. The possible reasons for this are not clear but may include denial that this could occur in Rotherham, concern that the ethnic element could damage community cohesion, worry about reputational risk to the Borough if the issue was brought fully into the public domain, and the belief that if that occurred, it might compromise police operations.

For much of the time, senior officers did little to keep members fully informed of the scale and seriousness of the problem, on occasion telling members they believed it was exaggerated. In the early years a small group of frontline professionals from the Council, the Police and Health worked together on CSE, both on individual cases and on issues such as multi-agency procedures. They alerted senior staff to the scale of the abuse but were met with disbelief and left with little management support for the good work they were trying to do. There are reports that senior staff conveyed that sexual exploitation and the ethnicity of perpetrators should be played down. This seemed to be reinforced by the Police. The source of this attitude cannot easily be identified. Concern about the resources CSE could consume; greater priority given to the protection of younger children; professional jealousies, and personal attitudes of some Council staff and the Police towards the girls involved have all been cited as reasons for the failure to address the seriousness and scale of the problem.

The prevailing culture at the most senior level of the Council, until 2009, as described by several people, was bullying and 'macho', and not an appropriate climate in which to discuss the rape and sexual exploitation of young people. From late 2009, the Chief Executive and the Lead Member took a strong personal interest in tackling child sexual exploitation."_


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## Sprocket. (Sep 6, 2017)

The senior council officers concerns about damaging the Borough reputation would be a lot less than the debacle we see now.
The victims will never get closure.


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## belboid (Sep 6, 2017)

Jesus 



> Its author Mark Greenburgh said it was "more cock-up than conspiracy".


Well, that's a well thought out phrase.


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## existentialist (Sep 6, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> The senior council officers concerns about damaging the Borough reputation would be a lot less than the debacle we see now.
> The victims will never get closure.


This exactly mirrors my own experience of working in an LA. The first question that seems to arise when a child protection issue emerges is "will this make us look bad?", and it's arse-covering all the way down after that.


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## campanula (Sep 6, 2017)

existentialist said:


> This exactly mirrors my own experience of working in an LA. The first question that seems to arise when a child protection issue emerges is "will this make us look bad?", and it's arse-covering all the way down after that.



Indeed, my daughter has walked from children's services after yet another manager refused to back her 'rattling cages for the sake of it'. Social work is in utter crisis. Committed, compassionate, political - 2 year burnout is almost inevitable for anyone who doesn't hide behind a wall of procedural (complacent) practice. Desperate times.


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## likesfish (Sep 7, 2017)

14000 victims and the authorities knew and did nothing 
  Rotherham town hall should be a burnt husk
The labour party in the city should be an unpleasant memory


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## existentialist (Sep 7, 2017)

likesfish said:


> 14000 victims and the authorities knew and did nothing
> Rotherham town hall should be a burnt husk
> The labour party in the city should be an unpleasant memory


I wouldn't be too tempted to politicise this - local government of every political stripe is capable of this shit. It's a systemic problem.


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## likesfish (Sep 7, 2017)

Sorry I meant the local council bigwigs who seemed to be establishment 
in the city  not like anyone was going to vote tory were they?
  Safe seats mean rulers grow complacent and corrupt


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## not-bono-ever (Sep 8, 2017)

Operation Sanctuary: Sex ring groomer sentencing continues - BBC News

The Newcastle lot are getting proper time for this - up to 20 years


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 11, 2018)

A 40 year period of abuse. Social workers, police and others turned a blind eye to what was happening all around them. 

UK's 'worst ever' child grooming scandal with 100s of girls sold for sex exposed


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 11, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A 40 year period of abuse. Social workers, police and others turned a blind eye to what was happening all around them.
> 
> UK's 'worst ever' child grooming scandal with 100s of girls sold for sex exposed



It's hard not to mentally change 'worst ever' to 'worst we know about so far'


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## likesfish (Mar 12, 2018)

along with the rapists the people who knew and did nothing should be in jail or in a kinder more gentle world hanging from street lamps


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## Raheem (Mar 12, 2018)

likesfish said:


> along with the rapists the people who knew and did nothing should be in jail or in a kinder more gentle world hanging from street lamps



Think about this a little bit, though.

I knew about this type of grooming in a Manchester satellite town (although not one that has been big news since). Basically there was a small gang of middle-aged men preying on girls from a kids' home. I was in a very minor position of influence (as a community worker) and spoke to a local police inspector. I was told that there was nothing they could do unless I could provide evidence of a crime, and that children had a right to associate with anyone they wanted to, which the police had to respect (!). I mentioned this conversation to three or four councilors and probably a few people working in the voluntary sector. So, I didn't do nothing, but I've regularly thought about whether I should have done more.

But the thing is, i didn't find out about it by happening upon it. People living near the kids' home talked to me about it, which is why I approached the police. And, from talking to the police, I know that staff in the kids home knew about it.

So either there's quite a few people in that community, plus me, that need sending to jail and/or hanging from a street lamp, or else it's a little bit more complicated than that.


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## 8ball (Mar 12, 2018)

belboid said:


> Well, that's a well thought out phrase.



Seems like it's true tbf.


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## twentythreedom (Mar 12, 2018)

Wrong thread


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 12, 2018)

Raheem said:


> So either there's quite a few people in that community, plus me, that need sending to jail and/or hanging from a street lamp, or else it's a little bit more complicated than that.



In the Telford case what is remarkable is a) the timescale - this was going on for 40 years and b) the number of warnings, tip offs and the huge amount of potentially evidential material that was deliberately set aside for fear of being accused of being racist, because the cops decided that the girls being raped, killed etc were ’prostitutes’ and because of the social class of the victims.

What’s also remarkable is that the left - normally so vocal on social media - have had precisely nothing to say about Telford or the issues it raises


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## likesfish (Mar 12, 2018)

Raheem said:


> Think about this a little bit, though.
> 
> 
> So either there's quite a few people in that community, plus me, that need sending to jail and/or hanging from a street lamp, or else it's a little bit more complicated than that.



but the police council leadership knew and DID FUCKING NOTHING  police dont have to respect the right of teenagers to hang out with NONCES  you can turn up at the rapists home and enquire loudly why is a middle-aged bloke hanging out with vulnerable teenagers etc you have options as a police inspector  park a van outside where the party takes place


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

Its sickening. Nothing to add apart from the usual- I cannot get my head around people who do this - especially groups of men.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2018)

Is it thought that this sort of thing goes on  everywhere, or is it only in certain places? 
I suspect it's the former.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

Its not new- My mother was working on a couple of taxi driver based sex abuse rings in the 80/90s when she was in social services  - not Asian, but many of the boxes on the recent ones were ticked from what I remember.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In the Telford case what is remarkable is a) the timescale - this was going on for 40 years and b) the number of warnings, tip offs and the huge amount of potentially evidential material that was deliberately set aside for fear of being accused of being racist, because the cops decided that the girls being raped, killed etc were ’prostitutes’ and because of the social class of the victims.
> 
> What’s also remarkable is that the left - normally so vocal on social media - have had precisely nothing to say about Telford or the issues it raises


never mind the auld chant that police protect the fascists, police protect the nonces.

in this instance the claim is because of fears of being called racist. like the police were ever fussed about that when they killed e.g. mark duggan, sean rigg, smiley culture etc. in the case of other nonces like savile, like cyril smith, the police come out with other reasons. wherever the police find an excuse not to act, they act effectually in favour of the abuser.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 12, 2018)

likesfish said:


> but the police council leadership knew and DID FUCKING NOTHING  police dont have to respect the right of teenagers to hang out with NONCES  you can turn up at the rapists home and enquire loudly why is a middle-aged bloke hanging out with vulnerable teenagers etc you have options as a police inspector  park a van outside where the party takes place



Exactly. According to the report the police had ample evidence and opportunity to charge those involved.

That they chose not to speaks volumes about a) how they perceive vulnerable girls; b) how your social class defines your treatment under the law and c) that despite protestations to the contrary those charged with protecting childen have systematically failed to do so often for political reasons.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

the front line of child protection are always hamstrung by the upper levels closing ranks - of course, the front line will get the shit for this political gerrymandering. as usual


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## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2018)

Do Rotherham still have a permanent ad for social workers in the Guardian's job pages? Nobody wants the job


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2018)

likesfish said:


> along with the rapists the people who knew and did nothing should be in jail or in a kinder more gentle world hanging from street lamps



Last time I was in Telford it was because Britain First were in town to exploit the recent convictions of two muslim men for child sexual abuse. I'm sure plenty in the BF crowd would have agreed with you about hanging folk up from lampposts, although they might have had a different set of criteria for choosing who gets the noose.

I understand the anger, I just don't think it will help victims nor prevent future atrocities. The common denominator here is vulnerable young people, kids society has no apparent interest in protecting or including. I work with kids and I know how many reams of safeguarding policy have been written and put up on staffroom walls, but that's all for naught if there are so many kids who aren't in contact with or have no trust in the people who read those documents. They also need to be backed up with proper funding and specialist training. Teachers, social workers, GPs are all being expected to do far too much as it is. It's not a surprise that some signs are missed, or that some kids have nobody they can trust.

I've not mentioned the police, because nobody in their right minds would take something like this to the police. They cannot be the first and last port of call for victims of child abuse.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 12, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Last time I was in Telford it was because Britain First were in town to exploit the recent convictions of two muslim men for child sexual abuse. I'm sure plenty in the BF crowd would have agreed with you about hanging folk up from lampposts, although they might have had a different set of criteria for choosing who gets the noose.



On social media the right wing are all over this. The left are absolutely silent. 

Of course, the right want to reduce the debate to a binary one on race and deliberately ignore the class and even the institutional questions raised. But the left, where it has anything to say, wants to pretend that race is not an important factor. 

This allows the right to contrast the left's hypocrisy, where sexual harassment/assault/rape/power misuse becomes a massive issue where it is done to and by the white middle class but when the victims are poor and the perps often Asian a matter of no interest.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> On social media the right wing are all over this. The left are absolutely silent.
> 
> Of course, the right want to reduce the debate to a binary one on race and deliberately ignore the class and even the institutional questions raised. But the left, where it has anything to say, wants to pretend that race is not an important factor.
> 
> This allows the right to contrast the left's hypocrisy, where sexual harassment/assault/rape/power misuse becomes a massive issue where it is done to and by the white middle class but when the victims are poor and the perps often Asian a matter of no interest.



The key point for me is that if there's an issue specific to muslim communities then attacking and alienating British muslims in general is not going to help resolve it, most likely the opposite would happen. And there needs to be recognition that while race may be a factor in some cases, when you've got nonces in positions of great power at the heart of white society it's clearly not the only one. The far right are easily thwarted on this issue, particularly Britain First who apprently didn't notice or care that one of their own leading lights was a paedophile.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> never mind the auld chant that police protect the fascists, police protect the nonces.
> 
> in this instance the claim is because of fears of being called racist. like the police were ever fussed about that when they killed e.g. mark duggan, sean rigg, smiley culture etc. in the case of other nonces like savile, like cyril smith, the police come out with other reasons. wherever the police find an excuse not to act, they act effectually in favour of the abuser.



Telford police killed Dalian Atkinson too lest we forget.


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## dessiato (Mar 12, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Its sickening. Nothing to add apart from the usual- I cannot get my head around people who do this - especially groups of men.


How on earth could anyone think that sex with a child is acceptable? I thought what if the child was precocious? But then there's that word again, child. It just keeps cropping up, and I can't think how anyone could avoid it. I work with teens, and there is no way that anyone of them is mature enough to take a decision to do what these were forced into doing. So how do these men justify the awful things they did to these kids? I strongly doubt that even my adults, the ones in their 30s and older, could willingly take the decision to do as these kids were forced to do.

I really can't get my head round any even a half decent person doing as these perverts have to children.


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## spanglechick (Mar 12, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> The key point for me is that if there's an issue specific to muslim communities then attacking and alienating British muslims in general is not going to help resolve it, most likely the opposite would happen. And there needs to be recognition that while race may be a factor in some cases, when you've got nonces in positions of great power at the heart of white society it's clearly not the only one. The far right are easily thwarted on this issue, particularly Britain First who apprently didn't notice or care that one of their own leading lights was a paedophile.


It's only this variation of child sexual exploitation rings that is specific to Muslim communities.   

Groups of men trafficking, raping and abusing girls has a rich history in white Britain, and our current CSE emergency in London is predominantly within black drug dealing gangs.  


This is what patriarchy gives us.  For as long has there has been patriarchy and in pretty much every culture in the world.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 12, 2018)

The level of victim blaming is still extremely high and I think people underestimate just how much damage that does. The wrong response from professionals can shut down further disclosure for years after, the language around so called child prostitution, talk of young people ‘choosing’ to abscond it they are removed into care rather than recognition that they are responding to coercion, things like ‘dressing provocatively’ on CSE risk checklists, the use of CSE films which openly show graphic scenes of rape to children as ‘warnings’ which are abusive, frightening and re-traumatising for victims - why would you talk to someone whose effectively abused you further etc. That’s on top of the classism that runs throughout, because young working class girls are just not important enough and they’re lose slags with no morals so what do we expect anyway.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 12, 2018)

It's only this variation of child sexual exploitation rings that is specific to Muslim communities. 

race IS an issue in this sort of case What do we know about the ethnicity of sexual abuse gangs?
According to the best available data, Asian men make up 75 per cent of “Type 1” group abusers, who target children and young women because they are vulnerable.

which is a bit concerning as they only make up 6% of uk population
most of the rest is as you'd assume a white thing


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2018)

dessiato said:


> I really can't get my head round any even a half decent person doing as these perverts have to children.



You can waste a lot of time trying to put yourself inside the mind of people who do things like this. I sincerely doubt any of these people are able to rationalise what they do as somehow not evil, we're dealing with people for whom being evil is simply not a problem.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2018)

purenarcotic said:


> The level of victim blaming is still extremely high and I think people underestimate just how much damage that does. The wrong response from professionals can shut down further disclosure for years after, the language around so called child prostitution, talk of young people ‘choosing’ to abscond it they are removed into care rather than recognition that they are responding to coercion, things like ‘dressing provocatively’ on CSE risk checklists, the use of CSE films which openly show graphic scenes of rape to children as ‘warnings’ which are abusive, frightening and re-traumatising for victims - why would you talk to someone whose effectively abused you further etc. That’s on top of the classism that runs throughout, because young working class girls are just not important enough and they’re lose slags with no morals so what do we expect anyway.



The thought of anyone putting the onus on children to protect themselves is pretty horrifying. 

In my job we're all required to carry ID and proof of DBS clearance at all times because we're taking kids out of school and are solely responsible for them. Some of my colleagues wear their ID on a lanyard with 'DBS checked' printed on it, which is bizarre to me. Kids should not be thinking about stuff like that, they should not have the risks facing them reinforced in their minds. They should know who they can talk to if there's a problem and beyond that safeguarding should be dealt with by adults, out of sight and out of mind. We're not protecting anyone if our version of 'protection' ends up making kids live in fear.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 12, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> The thought of anyone putting the onus on children to protect themselves is pretty horrifying.
> 
> In my job we're all required to carry ID and proof of DBS clearance at all times because we're taking kids out of school and are solely responsible for them. Some of my colleagues wear their ID on a lanyard with 'DBS checked' printed on it, which is bizarre to me. Kids should not be thinking about stuff like that, they should not have the risks facing them reinforced in their minds. They should know who they can talk to if there's a problem and beyond that safeguarding should be dealt with by adults, out of sight and out of mind. We're not protecting anyone if our version of 'protection' ends up making kids live in fear.



It is horrifying but it’s the every day reality unfortunately. Jessica Eaton has some good stuff to say on this - she is doing research into victim blaming at the moment and her blog has some excellent stuff on it.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2018)

likesfish said:


> It's only this variation of child sexual exploitation rings that is specific to Muslim communities.
> 
> race IS an issue in this sort of case What do we know about the ethnicity of sexual abuse gangs?
> According to the best available data, Asian men make up 75 per cent of “Type 1” group abusers, who target children and young women because they are vulnerable.
> ...




i thiink we have to be careful when looking at this - there are other factors at play that will skew the apparent results towards a cetain sector- i am not a sociologist but the economic backgrounds of the majority of offenders - low skilled/ night economy/predominantly male etc. There is likely a cultural aspect, but the whole picture needs be taken into account to avoid focusing on one aspect to the detriment of the rest of the profile - as I mentioned earlier, a taxi driver based peado sex ring existed last century in the NE i personally know about- ethnicity aside, the culprits were from a not dissimilar background- night work/ drug use / etc IYKWIM


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

likesfish said:


> It's only this variation of child sexual exploitation rings that is specific to Muslim communities.
> 
> race IS an issue in this sort of case What do we know about the ethnicity of sexual abuse gangs?
> According to the best available data, Asian men make up 75 per cent of “Type 1” group abusers, who target children and young women because they are vulnerable.
> ...



Yep. And it’s fucking awful but I was saying this a decade ago, and that right wing cunts will capitalise on it - because the left refuse to accept it’s an actual cultural and religiously driven thing.

And I was right.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

add it to the list.

Race _is _an issue shouts  washed out old man.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Yep. And it’s fucking awful but I was saying this a decade ago, and that right wing cunts will capitalise on it - because the left refuse to accept it’s an actual cultural and religiously driven thing.
> 
> And I was right.


Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

He's here to help


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> add it to the list.
> 
> Race _is _an issue shouts  washed out old man.



Not just race, actual religious attitudes imported from nations and societies that have very backward ideas about women.

But hey, speaking of washed up, how are you?

I’m doing fucking great, my house is now worth half a million and I’ve built myself a really nice career. Still scrounging beer money off Geri or did she get sick of supporting a miserable old fart like you??


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

i didn't ask. I don't care.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

thanks for posting


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> i didn't ask. I don't care.



A bit like your attitude to victims of grooming, then.

And now.

Too busy claiming anti-racist credentials to support vulnerable women that are being subjected to racist sexual exploitation.

And you wonder why cunts like Britain First get supporters.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> A bit like your attitude to victims of grooming, then.
> 
> And now.
> 
> ...


Not interested - posh mouth. Been humiliated. Grow up.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

Cutting off any pk talk now. Finished. Thread doesn't need it

----------------------------


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Not interested - posh mouth. Been humiliated. Grow up.



You’re still showboating here a decade after I got bored of message boards and decided to raise a family?

And I’M the one that needs to grow up?

LOL


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

The denial of the racist/religious elements of these grooming gangs is what contributed to their proliferation.

Which is what I was saying 10 years ago on here.

And you know it too.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 20, 2018)

Can't believe someone's come on this thread about the sexual exploitation of hundreds  of girls and made it about them, who is clairvoyant and dead clever like. If only they were in  charge,  it wouldn't have happened. 
Tool.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> Can't believe someone's come on this thread about the sexual exploitation of hundreds  of girls and made it about them, who is clairvoyant and dead clever like. If only they were in  charge,  it wouldn't have happened.
> Tool.


His clairvoyance consisted entirely of shouting 'sexual jihad' too. That was it entire.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> You’re still showboating here a decade after I got bored of message boards and decided to raise a family?
> 
> And I’M the one that needs to grow up?
> 
> LOL


what are you going to do when you get bored of raising a family, come back here full time?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Not just race, actual religious attitudes imported from nations and societies that have very backward ideas about women.



Lucky white people's record on treatment of women is above reproach eh? Because if it wasn't you'd have just made yourself look a right nasty cunt.

If you want to lump all these abusers into a single category who you can then write off as inherently evil and destructive, the only sensible category to choose is men. But nobody wants to write off a group that's got them in it do they? The whole point of finding a 'them' to blame is that you aren't them, so you're not responsible.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> Can't believe someone's come on this thread about the sexual exploitation of hundreds  of girls and made it about them, who is clairvoyant and dead clever like. If only they were in  charge,  it wouldn't have happened.
> Tool.


It must feel awful to know that one turned a blind eye to the fucking obvious racist religious zealotry which was a major factor in the abuse of these children, in an attempt to be politically correct and stuff.

The left got this one completely wrong, from the very start. Largely due to the denial and the fingerpointing of idiots like Butchers that have never really travelled around the planet and seen the wider picture beyond small-time west country politics and charity shop bookshelves. 
This is why Britain First attract so many numpties. 
Putting fingers in ears whenever cultural/religious motives for abuse were offered gave them an open goal.

And if you also did that, ten or so years ago, then fuck you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> The left got this one completely wrong, from the very start. Largely due to the denial and the fingerpointing of idiots like Butchers that have never really travelled around the planet and seen the wider picture beyond small-time west country politics and charity shop bookshelves.


yeh only people like you who've travelled the world can see the big picture.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> It must feel awful to know that one turned a blind eye to the fucking obvious racist religious zealotry which was a major factor in the abuse of these children, in an attempt to be politically correct and stuff.



We're taking their 'not wanting to be seen as racist' narrative at face value then are we? The police didn't want to be seen as racist so they did nothing. _The police. _


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> We're taking their 'not wanting to be seen as racist' narrative at face value then are we? The police didn't want to be seen as racist so they did nothing. _The police. _


the police protect nonces of all descriptions, regardless of the hue of their skin.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lucky white people's record on treatment of women is above reproach eh? Because if it wasn't you'd have just made yourself look a right nasty cunt.
> 
> If you want to lump all these abusers into a single category who you can then write off as inherently evil and destructive, the only sensible category to choose is men. But nobody wants to write off a group that's got them in it do they? The whole point of finding a 'them' to blame is that you aren't them, so you're not responsible.



Seems to be a bunch of whataboutery and a lot of missing the point here.

That the ritual abuse of vulnerable non-muslim girls by a hugely disproportionate number of men from Pakistani origins is absolutely part of a jihadi ideology.

A “sexual jihad” if you will. Which was vehemently rejected by the left as being a racist myth. When it clearly wasn’t.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> the police protect nonces of all descriptions, regardless of the hue of their skin.



This is true, and I’m always keen to point out to far right - the vigilante sting groups that have sprung up almost always catch right wing white “patriots” - but a failure to acknowledge basic uncomfortable truths about the toxicity of Pakistani attutudes to women, especially non-muslim women, has led to many more being enslaved and victimised. 
And in light of the Telford revelations it’s time the left woke the fuck up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> That the ritual abuse of vulnerable non-muslim girls by a hugely disproportionate number of men from Pakistani origins is absolutely part of a jihadi ideology.


right. so where in the koran does it say this then? i mean, if it's part of jihad then surely it's in the koran. or you're spouting shit. my money's on the spouting shit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Seems to be a bunch of whataboutery and a lot of missing the point here.
> 
> That the ritual abuse of vulnerable non-muslim girls by a hugely disproportionate number of men from Pakistani origins is absolutely part of a jihadi ideology.
> 
> A “sexual jihad” if you will. Which was vehemently rejected by the left as being a racist myth. When it clearly wasn’t.



Firstly I think ascribing an ideological motive to crimes such as these gives the culprits far too much credit, even if the ideology you're claiming they serve is an utterly putrid one. I think 'ritual abuse' is something you've invented, for whatever private reasons you may have, to describe the kinds of cruelty and exploitation that have never before needed a guiding moral principle but merely the absence of any morals at all.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh only people like you who've travelled the world can see the big picture.


Sort of sounds like, if you haven't you've not seen what 'they' are really like doesn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> right. so where in the koran does it say this then? i mean, if it's part of jihad then surely it's in the koran. or you're spouting shit. my money's on the spouting shit.


Let's not forget that he was explicit in adding this onto "race".


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

And his boat, his house, his lush studio, his multifarious travels.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> right. so where in the koran does it say this then? i mean, if it's part of jihad then surely it's in the koran. or you're spouting shit. my money's on the spouting shit.



It seems to be a common theme in certain mosques from certain imams...
'Imams promote grooming rings', Muslim leader claims


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh only people like you who've travelled the world can see the big picture.



How many muslim countries have you been to?
How many muslim majority UK areas have you lived in?
Yet you claim to be some sort of expert?

Sure the cops fucked up. They always do.
But this isn’t about the cops.

This is about the left. This is about the refusal to accept what is now acknowledged fact.
Even now you’re wriggling. This is why.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> And his boat, his house, his lush studio, his multifarious travels.



I don’t have a boat. Would be too tempting to drop people off the side of it wearing concrete boots.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> This is true, and I’m always keen to point out to far right - the vigilante sting groups that have sprung up almost always catch right wing white “patriots” - but a failure to acknowledge basic uncomfortable truths about the toxicity of Pakistani attutudes to women, especially non-muslim women, has led to many more being enslaved and victimised.
> And in light of the Telford revelations it’s time the left woke the fuck up.



If you were as worldly and well-travelled as you claim you might have noticed that attitudes towards and treatment of women are quite different in Pakistan and in British Pakistani communities. I would argue that if there's a pattern then it's one which follows a more general trend of marginalised, disenfranchised groups everywhere to find someone even more vulnerable over whom to exert power. Predictably it ends up being women and children within those groups who suffer. 

If it were a muslim or a Pakistani issue, wouldn't we expect the culprits to reflect the whole of British muslim or British Pakistani society? Because they don't, they're overwhelmingly working class. Similar patterns can be seen in disenfranchised groups of white people, notably Irish travellers in this country.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Sort of sounds like, if you haven't you've not seen what 'they' are really like doesn't it?


And on top of that, as you well know, it was the likes of me and you that had to bear the brunt of years of accusations of racism for being anti-islam (as a religion) and demanding that the left recognise internal differences - class differences within muslim 'communities'. Whilst millionaire super-star Djs and wonderful fathers were lying about cutting off facists ears and burning down their pubs and shouting very quietly about 'sexual jihad'. It's wasn't them countering UBA all those years ago.

But, this is sad shit isn't it? I may get my paul mason/milhouse pic out in a minute.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> And on top of that, as you well know, it was the likes of me and you that had to bear the brunt of years of accusations of racism for being anti-islam (as a religion) and demanding that the left recognise internal differences - class differences within muslim 'communities'. Whilst millionaire super-star Djs and wonderful fathers were lying about cutting off facists ears and burning down their pubs and shouting very quietly about 'sexual jihad'. It's wasn't them countering UBA all those years ago.
> 
> But, this is sad shit isn't it? I may get my paul mason/milhouse pic out in a minute.



No you just flat out denied such a thing as the specific targetting of non-muslim girls even existed. Wouldn’t even entertain the idea.

I’m not here to say “told you so” (although obviously I am!) as much as I’m here to say “don’t fucking make that mistake again”.

Because that really would be sad.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

Yes, you def wouldn't find me saying this on this very thread. Your obsession with heroising yourself and your small town racism is not what this thread or the wider issue needs. Please go back to your family.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> It seems to be a common theme in certain mosques from certain imams...
> 'Imams promote grooming rings', Muslim leader claims


yeh. that's one article from five years ago. is that the best you've got? one article indicates a common theme? pisspoor, even by your abysmal standards


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, you def wouldn't find me saying this on this very thread. Your obsession with heroising yourself and your small town racism is not what this thread or the wider issue needs. Please go back to your family.



Amazing. You’re still using the “racism” card.

This is why the left is utterly fucked. You’re just stuck on repeat. How sad. Go read a book and pretend you’re doing good things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> How many muslim countries have you been to?
> How many muslim majority UK areas have you lived in?
> Yet you claim to be some sort of expert?
> 
> ...


i don't claim to be an expert. i'm not wriggling. but be specific, to what 'acknowledged fact' are you referring here - and pls provide your source for this alleged fact.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Amazing. You’re still using the “racism” card.
> 
> This is why the left is utterly fucked. You’re just stuck on repeat. How sad. Go read a book and pretend you’re doing good things.


i see your family not so interesting today.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. that's one article from five years ago. is that the best you've got? one article indicates a common theme? pisspoor, even by your abysmal standards



That’s all I can be arsed with this morning.
It’s a waste of time trying to convince you of the obvious.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i see your family not so interesting today.



More interesting than you will ever be, chief, but they’re at work/school so I get to diversify.

You should try it.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. that's one article from five years ago. is that the best you've got? one article indicates a common theme? pisspoor, even by your abysmal standards


Here's a more recent article.  Grooming gangs of Muslim men failed to integrate into British society


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> That’s all I can be arsed with this morning.
> It’s a waste of time trying to convince you of the obvious.


what, that these grooming gangs are fulfilling a religious obligation? because that's what you've claimed yet you can't offer the basis for this religious obligation, which undermines any article from right-wing papers you post.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> what, that these grooming gangs are fulfilling a religious obligation? because that's what you've claimed yet you can't offer the basis for this religious obligation, which undermines any article from right-wing papers you post.



Fulfilling a religious obligation, or using their religious zealotry to justify their repeated and co-ordinated nationwide abuses?

I didn’t suggest the Koran was used to justify what they do, any more than I suggest the Bible encourages US folk to buy AR-15s.

You put that suggestion out there.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I didn’t suggest the Koran was used to justify what they do, any more than I suggest the Bible encourages US folk to buy AR-15s.
> 
> You put that suggestion out there.



You're fucking delusional mate, I'm out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Here's a more recent article.  Grooming gangs of Muslim men failed to integrate into British society


does that say anything about pk's religious obligation claim?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Fulfilling a religious obligation, or using their religious zealotry to justify their repeated and co-ordinated nationwide abuses?
> 
> I didn’t suggest the Koran was used to justify what they do, any more than I suggest the Bible encourages US folk to buy AR-15s.
> 
> You put that suggestion out there.


yeh. you brought jihadi ideology into this, but you don't know what jihadi ideology is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're fucking delusional mate, I'm out.


he's out too, out to lunch.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're fucking delusional mate, I'm out.


Weird. Pickmans puts up a strawman and you think I’m delusional for refusing to take it on. It’s like dealing with a cult.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you brought jihadi ideology into this, but you don't know what jihadi ideology is.


It’s something you refuse to accept exists.
Which is in part why thousands of kids will keep getting abused.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> It’s something you refuse to accept exists.
> Which is in part why thousands of kids will keep getting abused.


oh i don't deny jihadi ideology exists - qutb's milestones, for example, and those sections of the koran which refer explicitly to jihad. but i don't believe in your sexual jihad, for evidence of which you've only adduced your own assertion.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> does that say anything about pk's religious obligation claim?



I didn't see him say anything about religious obligations.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I didn't see him say anything about religious obligations.


What do you think the sexual jihad is?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I didn't see him say anything about religious obligations.


yeh. so the notion of sexual jihad conveys to you no connection to the koranic notion of jihad. there are none so blind as those that will not see.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> What do you think the sexual jihad is?



Something pk made up?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Something pk made up?


Something pk picked up form some horrible websites or horrible people more like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Something pk made up?


not sure he has the nous to do that tbh

e2a: and i'd be right. in addition, he seems to be using a rather idiosyncratic definition as apparently it means something different:





> *Sexual jihad* (Arabic: جهاد النكاح‎, jihad al-nikah) refers to the purported practice in which Sunni women sympathetic to Salafi jihadism travel to warzones such as Syria and voluntarily offer themselves to be "married" to jihadist militants, often repeatedly and in temporary marriages, serving sexual comfort roles


Sexual jihad - Wikipedia


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Jihad means opposition of the wrong. 

Some of the slimeballs in these so called grooming gangs consider white girls "wrong".


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Jihad means opposition of the wrong.
> 
> Some of the slimeballs in these so called grooming gangs consider white girls "wrong".


yes, and you therefore agree with pk that it's caused by something inherent in islam i suppose.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure he has the nous to do that tbh
> 
> e2a: and i'd be right. in addition, he seems to be using a rather idiosyncratic definition as apparently it means something different:Sexual jihad - Wikipedia



By my reckoning then pk is effectively implying that the victims in Telford volunteered for their abuse? Classy stuff.

He's the one with all the knowledge after all. It's inconceivable he'd use the phrase 'sexual jihad' without any awareness of what it means.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Jihad means opposition of the wrong.
> 
> Some of the slimeballs in these so called grooming gangs consider white girls "wrong".


So there is a religious obligation on all faithful muslims to wage sexual jihad. Rather than a few rapists using the idea to justify their actions. Do you see the difference christian?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> By my reckoning then pk is effectively implying that the victims in Telford volunteered for their abuse? Classy stuff.


he's a classy man, our epsom arsonist


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> By my reckoning then pk is effectively implying that the victims in Telford volunteered for their abuse? Classy stuff.
> 
> He's the one with all the knowledge after all. It's inconceivable he'd use the phrase 'sexual jihad' without any awareness of what it means.



Wow. It really is like a cult.

Somehow you have transferred your ignorance into implying that I think these children asked to be drugged and raped.

What’s it like to be so mentally twisted?


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, and you therefore agree with pk that it's caused by something inherent in islam i suppose.



Not inherent in “islam” - but definitely in keeping with the attitudes of many young muslim men who adhere to strict religious codes.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Wow. It really is like a cult.
> 
> Somehow you have transferred your ignorance into implying that I think these children asked to be drugged and raped.
> 
> What’s it like to be so mentally twisted?



You used the phrase 'sexual jihad' to describe these abuses. As shown above, that phrase refers to women volunteering to become sex objects for righteous men. What conclusion are we supposed to draw from that?


----------



## rekil (Mar 20, 2018)

> my house is now worth half a million


Is this from his linkedin?


----------



## editor (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Still scrounging beer money off Geri or did she get sick of supporting a miserable old fart like you??


FYI, this kind of stuff is no longer acceptable here - and this applies to anyone dredging up irrelevant personal stuff on such a sensitive topic, so I'm not just picking on you.

Oh, and hello again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Not inherent in “islam” - but definitely in keeping with the attitudes of many young muslim men who adhere to strict religious codes.


yeh. and you've associated this with those 'strict religious codes' through your peculiar notion of 'sexual jihad'. come on, if you've been banging on about this for many years you should have found some scriptural basis for it by now: if there is one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

copliker said:


> Is this from his linkedin?


it's from his estate agent


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, and you therefore agree with pk that it's caused by something inherent in islam i suppose.



Then you suppose wrong.

However, it's something inherent in the teachings of some scholars, who teach their followers that females are inferior, and non-believer-women are even more inferior.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

copliker said:


> Is this from his linkedin?


Hopefully from his wifes divorce application


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Then you suppose wrong.
> 
> However, it's something inherent in the teachings of some scholars, who teach their followers that females are inferior, and non-believer-women are even more inferior.


right. and if it's inherent in the teachings of such scholars, from whence do you believe they comes, those beliefs? from where do they spring?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> right. and if it's inherent in the teachings of such scholars, from whence do you believe they comes, those beliefs? from where do they spring?



From my earlier link:  “There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam. These backward views are passed down from generation to generation until the lines between faith and culture dissolve, making it increasingly difficult to criticise one without being seen as a critic of the other.”  Muna Adil.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Something pk picked up form some horrible websites or horrible people more like.



Grow up. Seriously.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

editor said:


> FYI, this kind of stuff is no longer acceptable here - and this applies to anyone dredging up irrelevant personal stuff on such a sensitive topic, so I'm not just picking on you.
> 
> Oh, and hello again.



Hello!


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> From my earlier link:  “There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam. These backward views are passed down from generation to generation until the lines between faith and culture dissolve, making it increasingly difficult to criticise one without being seen as a critic of the other.”  Muna Adil.


You can see the same shit happening in ultra-orthodox Jewish and Christian sects, but normally the victims are from the same circle.
I think the nature of deliberately targetting children from non-religious backgrounds (and most are from vulnerable/care home backgrounds) is a peculiar aspect to the grooming stories.

And after all - it is now the number one cause taken up by the FLA/Britain First mobs.
It’s the first thing they come out with to justify their anti-muslim stance. And you know they use the issue as a recruiting tool.
Even though a disproportionate number of the far right keep getting locked up for paedophilia related shit.

I can’t see how the opposition groups on the left can pretend muslim grooming isn’t a racist problem that needs addressing, to undermine the arguments made by the far right. I mean you’ve had 10 years to come up with something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> From my earlier link:  “There are elements from within the British Pakistani community that still subscribe to outdated and sexist views of women embedded within their jaded interpretations of Islam. These backward views are passed down from generation to generation until the lines between faith and culture dissolve, making it increasingly difficult to criticise one without being seen as a critic of the other.”  Muna Adil.


Yeh. So your castle built on sand after all.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. So your castle built on sand after all.



Really?  Okay, from where do you think such beliefs come?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Really?  Okay, from where do you think such beliefs come?


no, when i say built on sand i mean you're tying yourself in knots.

on the one hand you talk about jihad being the opposition of the wrong, you say the people involved in these vile crimes saw their victims as the wrong: but then you denied that this was anything inherent within islam, but then you talk it being in some interpretations of islam. so you're saying 'these interpretations are wrong'. who are you to say who is islamic and who isn't? on what authority do you make those judgments?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

You asked me where the beliefs come from.  I agree with the person quoted who said it's a mix of culture and a jaded interpretation of islam.

If you disagree, could you tell me where YOU think the beliefs come from?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> You asked me where the beliefs come from.  I agree with the person quoted who said it's a mix of culture and a jaded interpretation of islam.
> 
> If you disagree, could you tell me where YOU think the beliefs come from?


no, i asked from WHERE do the beliefs come? i didn't ask 'please give me a woolly load of auld cobblers'.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

I don't know.  What do you think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I don't know.  What do you think?


that's a pity. i thought you might have a stab at what was being jadedly interpreted by these people.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i asked from WHERE do the beliefs come? i didn't ask 'please give me a woolly load of auld cobblers'.



You think the Quilliam report is a woolly load of auld cobblers?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 20, 2018)

Pk is wrong in the idea of sexual jihad or any of these nonces being remotely practicing Muslims.

He’s right that this is an Asian problem 3 out of four gangs caught for this are Asian and as they make up 6% of the population that is a problem.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> You think the Quilliam report is a woolly load of auld cobblers?


tbh i don't think you've as much to add to this discussion as you think you do. you're dancing round the origin of these ideas being interpretations of the koran but you're not ready to dive in and defend that.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 20, 2018)

No body is surprised that some Pakistani men have a terrible attitude to women give them opportunity and they are going to abuse “slags”.

The fact the authorities let them get away with it for so long is unforgivable.

People trying to claim there wasn’t anything racial about this is bullshit.


----------



## hot air baboon (Mar 20, 2018)

the sexual slavery issue was more to do with ISIS & the atrocities being carried in their wake I thought

September 12, 2014
Clip No.
5252
*Al-Azhar Professor Suad Saleh: In a Legitimate War, Muslims Can Capture Slavegirls and Have Sex with Them (Archival)*
_In a September 12, 2014 Fatwa show, Al-Azhar Professor of Theology Suad Saleh discussed the Islamic concept of "those whom you own." Speaking on Hayat TV, Professor Saleh said that Muslims who capture women in a legitimate war against their enemies may own them and have sex with them as slavegirls. "In order to humiliate them," Prof. Saleh said, "they become the property of the army commander, or of a Muslim, and he can have sex with them just like he has sex with his wives." The video has been circulating in social media in recent days._


Suad Saleh: "'Those whom you own' (slavery) existed before Islam. It existed among all nations and countries, not just among pre-Islam Arabs. Anyone could trade in freeborn men and women. This is called the selling of freeborn people. It's like the selling of human organs and trafficking in freeborn humans today. But when Islam emerged, it put (slavery) into order, by limiting it to legitimate wars between Muslims and their enemies. If we fought Israel, which is plundering land, and is an aggressor against people and their faith... Obviously, it is impossible that we will fight Israel, even though Surat Al-Isra in the Quran foretells this, and nothing is beyond the power of Allah... The female prisoners of wars are 'those whom you own.' In order to humiliate them, they become the property of the army commander, or of a Muslim, and he can have sex with them just like he has sex with his wives.


[...]


"Some opportunists and extremists, who only harm Islam, say: 'I will bring a woman from East Asia, as (a slavegirl) under the status of "those whom you own," and with the consent of my wife, I will allocate this woman a room in the house, and will have sex with her as a slavegirl.' This is nonsense. This is not prescribed by Islam at all. Islam says that a woman is either a wife or a slavegirl. Legitimately-owned slaves come from among prisoners from a war, which is waged against the Muslims, a war to plunder land, a war against our faith, and so on. What some people are doing now is an aggression against Allah and against Allah's legal texts in the Quran, and we must not be influenced by this at all."

Al-Azhar Professor Suad Saleh: In a Legitimate War, Muslims Can Capture Slavegirls and Have Sex with Them (Archival)


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i don't think you've as much to add to this discussion as you think you do. you're dancing round the origin of these ideas being interpretations of the koran but you're not ready to dive in and defend that.



You're talking utter rubbish.  Where have I said any such thing?

Why don't you give your opinion, instead of ascribing opinions to other people?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> You're talking utter rubbish.  Where have I said any such thing?


 'where have i said such a thing?' you know that bit where you were on about jaded interpretations of islam? what do you think muslims interpret for their understanding of islam, jaded or otherwise? eh?



> Why don't you say what you think, instead of telling other people what you THINK they think?


i am saying what i think. which is that what you and pk think is tosh.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2018)

likesfish said:


> No body is surprised that some Pakistani men have a terrible attitude to women give them opportunity and they are going to abuse “slags”.
> 
> The fact the authorities let them get away with it for so long is unforgivable.
> 
> People trying to claim there wasn’t anything racial about this is bullshit.


In what is a pretty radgie thread, I don't think using the word 'race' does anything to help.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i am saying what i think. which is that what you and pk think is tosh.



Okay, so you think it's tosh that the grooming gangs' attitude towards white girls is a mix of culture and a jaded interpretation of islam.  

How would you explain it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Okay, so you think it's tosh that the grooming gangs' attitude towards white girls is a mix of culture and a jaded interpretation of islam.
> 
> How would you explain it?


yeh, your orientalism is showing chuck.

how'd i explain it? by a mixture of opportunity, misogyny and sexism, power and racism; not to mention misogyny on the part of bodies like the police. there's no need to bring islam into it, as it only muddies the waters.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh, your orientalism is showing chuck.
> 
> how'd i explain it? by a mixture of opportunity, misogyny and sexism, power and racism; not to mention misogyny on the part of bodies like the police. there's no need to bring islam into it, as it only muddies the waters.


That begs some questions rather. Where does the misogyny and sexism come from?


----------



## Sweet FA (Mar 20, 2018)

Men?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That begs some questions rather. Where does the misogyny and sexism come from?



Certainly not from one particular culture, nation or religion.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Certainly not from one particular culture, nation or religion.



True but its is more prevalent in some cultures, nations and religions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That begs some questions rather. Where does the misogyny and sexism come from?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Certainly not from one particular culture, nation or religion.


But if the group of men come from one particular culture, their attitudes are likely to be informed by it, no? Similarly, the rapey rockstars of the 70s had attitudes informed by the rapey rockstar culture of the time.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh, your orientalism is showing chuck.
> 
> how'd i explain it? by a mixture of opportunity, misogyny and sexism, power and racism; not to mention misogyny on the part of bodies like the police. there's no need to bring islam into it, as it only muddies the waters.



What do you mean by “racism”?

Which party is being racist to whom?

Let’s stop the ad hominems towards ElizabethofYork who has only politely enquired of you your own opinions, which you have thus far evaded...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But if the group of men come from one particular culture, their attitudes are likely to be informed by it, no? Similarly, the rapey rockstars of the 70s had attitudes informed by the rapey rockstar culture of the time.



A small group of coke-addled rockstars are not a culture on the same level as a nation and diaspora comprising hundreds of millions of people.

If people only do what their culture tells them, why are most people in any culture you care to name not rapists and paedophiles?


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 130502View attachment 130503
> View attachment 130504View attachment 130505
> View attachment 130506


More “whataboutery” - the kind of which one would expect from Britain First.
Why were only white non-muslim girls specifically targetted by these grooming gangs of Pakistani heritage?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> What do you mean by “racism”?
> 
> Which party is being racist to whom?
> 
> Let’s stop the ad hominems towards ElizabethofYork who has only politely enquired of you your own opinions, which you have thus far evaded...


white knighting doesn't suit you, pk. you don't seem to know what an ad hominem is, if you think me saying e of y is orientalist is such a thing. and you're in no position to say anything about ad hominems, you're very keen on using them, but not being on the receiving end.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> More “whataboutery” - the kind of which one would expect from Britain First.
> Why were only white non-muslim girls specifically targetted by these grooming gangs of Pakistani heritage?


you used to be halfway decent at this. but now you're shit. lbj asked where this sexism and misogyny came from and my post indicated that it's all around us.

incidentally, it's not what you'd expect from bf, who would undoubtedly concentrate solely on the pakistani or wider muslim communities.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> A small group of coke-addled rockstars are not a culture on the same level as a nation and diaspora comprising hundreds of millions of people.
> 
> If people only do what their culture tells them, why are most people in any culture you care to name not rapists and paedophiles?


Where did I say 'people only do what their culture tells them'? Most 70s rockstars weren't rapists either.

People are able to talk on here about 90s 'lad culture' and its effects on the attitudes of young men towards women. Surely we can also talk about British Muslim culture and its effects.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> you used to be halfway decent at this. but now you're shit. lbj asked where this sexism and misogyny came from and my post indicated that it's all around us.
> 
> incidentally, it's not what you'd expect from bf, who would undoubtedly concentrate solely on the pakistani or muslim communities.



I generally have better things to do than waste energy on elusive vague people too scared to state the bleedin’ obvious.

I definitely think the refusal to see this grooming scandal as something more sinister than common garden sexism/shit policing - and the unwillingness to confront the twisted religiously inspired elements of a known mysogynist society is what is driving lesser educated working class boys into the far right groups that will be headed to Birmingham on the 24th March.

And it’s a shame the left haven’t got their shit together and denounced the specifically “jihadi flavour” grooming activity of abusing vulnerable white working class children, in the same way they denounce the other religiously inspired dogma that leads to abuse i.e. nonce Catholic priests.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I generally have better things to do than waste energy on elusive vague people too scared to state the bleedin’ obvious.
> 
> I definitely think the refusal to see this grooming scandal as something more sinister than common garden sexism/shit policing - and the unwillingness to confront the twisted religiously inspired elements of a known mysogynist society is what is driving lesser educated working class boys into the far right groups that will be headed to Birmingham on the 24th March.
> 
> And it’s a shame the left haven’t got their shit together and denounced the specifically “jihadi flavour” grooming activity of abusing vulnerable white working class children, in the same way they denounce the other religiously inspired dogma that leads to abuse i.e. nonce Catholic priests.


yeh. i'm still waiting on you bringing out any proof of this sexual jihad you claim to see being an actual thing. but i bet you're not going to bring out any evidence for that, being as it seems to be a product of your own mind.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

I know you think I’m here to stir up old shit, but I simply don’t care & don’t even remember what we used to argue about beyond the usual drunken bickering.

It used to be that people were concerned about factors that drove working class disenfranchised young people towards far right hate groups.

This here is currently the Number One factor, and the basis upon which the modern far right groups were established.

That you still fail to understand this is a huge failure on the part of the Left. And I find it frustrating and depressing.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. i'm still waiting on you bringing out any proof of this sexual jihad you claim to see being an actual thing. but i bet you're not going to bring out any evidence for that, being as it seems to be a product of your own mind.



That you refuse to see the blatant hatred and racist factors in the treatment of these child victims by the grooming gangs shows either a complete ignorance of the issue or a wilful disregard.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

I suggest you start here, with an account from one of the abused children:

As a Rotherham grooming gang survivor, I want people to know about the religious extremism which inspired my abusers


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I know you think I’m here to stir up old shit, but I simply don’t care & don’t even remember what we used to argue about beyond the usual drunken bickering.
> 
> It used to be that people were concerned about factors that drove working class disenfranchised young people towards far right hate groups.
> 
> ...


the only one of us who has ever bickered drunkenly here is you. and i haven't dredged that up.

you make out you're opposed to the far right jumping on this and affecting to lament the left's failure on this. but you're adopting the right's analysis of this. why is this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> That you refuse to see the blatant hatred and racist factors in the treatment of these child victims by the grooming gangs shows either a complete ignorance of the issue or a wilful disregard.


i haven't said there wasn't hatred. i have said there was racism. you're your auld lying self


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

“
Religious indoctrination is a big part of the process of getting young men involved in grooming gang crime. Religious ideas about purity, virginity, modesty and obedience are taken to the extreme until horrific abuse becomes the norm. It was taught to me as a concept of “othering”.

_“Muslim girls are good and pure because they dress modestly, covering down to their ankles and wrists, and covering their crotch area. They stay virgins until marriage. They are _our _girls. _

_"White girls and non-Muslim girls are bad because you dress like slags. You show the curves of your bodies (showing the gap between your thighs means you’re asking for it) and therefore you’re immoral. White girls sleep with hundreds of men. You are the _other_ girls. You are worthless and you deserve to be gang-raped.”_


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> the only one of us who has ever bickered drunkenly here is you. and i haven't dredged that up.
> 
> you make out you're opposed to the far right jumping on this and affecting to lament the left's failure on this. but you're adopting the right's analysis of this. why is this?



Because I see the right’s analysis is working on susceptible young people with little by way of life opportunities. Even if flawed and designed to line the pockets of scum like Golding and Fransen.

The left has no narrative to yet address this and diffuse it. Which should sufficiently explain my frustration. I’m not sympathising with any far right animals as well you know.

I want to starve their arguments and reasoning of oxygen. But this does involve reading and understanding some uncomfortable aspects to the cases they are using to bolst their numbers. Which you apparently refuse to do.

Which then leads to nonsense about “safe spaces” and “snowflakes”.

You aren’t stupid, you can see this correlation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> “
> Religious indoctrination is a big part of the process of getting young men involved in grooming gang crime. Religious ideas about purity, virginity, modesty and obedience are taken to the extreme until horrific abuse becomes the norm. It was taught to me as a concept of “othering”.
> 
> _“Muslim girls are good and pure because they dress modestly, covering down to their ankles and wrists, and covering their crotch area. They stay virgins until marriage. They are _our _girls. _
> ...


you might say you got this from the independent. you might. but you don't.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i haven't said there wasn't hatred. i have said there was racism. you're your auld lying self



But you won’t accept the cultural religious extremist elements in all these cases.

What do you make of the Indie article I just posted?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> “
> [a load of nasty shit]_”_



That all sounds more like a post-hoc rationalisation of something someone has already decided to do than actual religious principles.

But if you're genuinely worried about the dangers of othering people, maybe spend slightly less of your time doing exactly that.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> you might say you got this from the independent. you might. but you don't.


FFS it’s quoted - in fucking quotes - directly under the Indie link.

If you’re unable to debate this issue, then don’t, but please don’t try and paint me as having some sly agenda or plagiarising a link that I had just provided. Grow up a little.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> But you won’t accept the cultural religious extremist elements in all these cases.
> 
> What do you make of the Indie article I just posted?


i don't accept what you've said about sexual jihad because it's patent bollocks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> FFS it’s quoted - in fucking quotes - directly under the Indie link.
> 
> If you’re unable to debate this issue, then don’t, but please don’t try and paint me as having some sly agenda or plagiarising a link that I had just provided. Grow up a little.


i saw your link. i saw your pitiful quote. the years have atrophied your ability to use the quote function here. i don't read the independent as it's clickbait shit.

you always have a sly agenda.

as for debating, you've been reluctant to substantiate your claims - i return once more to the bit about sexual jihad. you've lied about what i've said. so don't come the 'unable to debate bit', that cock won't fight.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> FFS it’s quoted - in fucking quotes - directly under the Indie link.



Why are you quoting this stuff though? The words of such irrevocably corrupt people cannot possibly have anything useful to tell us.

Even on a thread about child rape what you quoted stands out as particularly sickening, both in terms of content and in the simple fact that someone has passed this hideous, evil bullshit on as something worthy of consideration. 

As if a rapist of children is ever going to tell his victims or the world at large the truth about his motivations ffs.


----------



## RainbowTown (Mar 20, 2018)

Wherever the blame lies in this horrific matter, and whatever the so-called reasoning behind it is (though there is no reasoning, is there? - these 'men' are simply vile pigs, scumbags of the first order and hopefully not long for this earth) - one thing is remains certain: these girls were grotesquely let down by everyone - the police, the council, the relevant authorities. And no amount of bullshit retrospective inquiries or 'apologies' or 'lessons to be learnt' spiel will alter that fact. Deplorable, shameful and disgusting doesn't even cover it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> Wherever the blame lies in this horrific matter, and whatever the so-called reasoning behind it is (though there is no reasoning, is there? - these 'men' are simply vile pigs, scumbags of the first order and hopefully not long for this earth) - one thing is remains certain: these girls were grotesquely let down by everyone - the police, the council, the relevant authorities. And no amount of bullshit retrospective inquiries or 'apologies' or 'lessons to be learnt' spiel will alter that fact. Deplorable, shameful and disgusting doesn't even cover it.


very much so. to the cops and the local authorities, no more than to the perpetrators, the unfortunate victims were slags and whores. the very bodies who should have acted on the first complaints refused to do so because of their own views of the girls. unforgiveable.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why are you quoting this stuff though? The words of such irrevocably corrupt people cannot possibly have anything useful to tell us.


Anders Breivik is an evil cunt whose word is not to be trusted on anything. Do you just ignore everything he says about his influences as a result? I wouldn't have thought so.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why are you quoting this stuff though? The words of such irrevocably corrupt people cannot possibly have anything useful to tell us.
> 
> Even on a thread about child rape what you quoted stands out as particularly sickening, both in terms of content and in the simple fact that someone has passed this hideous, evil bullshit on as something worthy of consideration.
> 
> As if a rapist of children is ever going to tell his victims or the world at large the truth about his motivations ffs.


Because these are quotes from the victims, as told to them whilst they were being abused.

It seems again the victims are not being listened to. So such things are destined to be repeated, because the Left is in denial - and indeed denying the victims a voice in all this.

It would be funny if it wasn’t so fucking tragic.

I’m glad you lot chose not to have kids TBH


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> It seems again the victims are not being listened to. So such things are destined to be repeated, because the Left is in denial - and indeed denying the victims a voice in all this.



Who are 'the left' as you keep referring to them and why are they to be held solely responsible for the actions of rapists and the failures of the police and other organs of a decidedly non-leftist state?


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i saw your link. i saw your pitiful quote. the years have atrophied your ability to use the quote function here. i don't read the independent as it's clickbait shit.
> 
> you always have a sly agenda.
> 
> as for debating, you've been reluctant to substantiate your claims - i return once more to the bit about sexual jihad. you've lied about what i've said. so don't come the 'unable to debate bit', that cock won't fight.



So you “don’t read the Independent” yet you’re stamping your feet demanding evidence for jihadi style abuse, which I’ve provided, but your puritanical unwillingness to read the victims account says more about your agenda.

Blame the cops. For doing what you are doing.
Not listening to the victims. Brilliant stuff.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I’m glad you lot chose not to have kids TBH



Perhaps a quick refresher course on the forum rules is called for at this point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> So you “don’t read the Independent” yet you’re stamping your feet demanding evidence for jihadi style abuse, which I’ve provided, but your puritanical unwillingness to read the victims account says more about your agenda.
> 
> Blame the cops. For doing what you are doing.
> Not listening to the victims. Brilliant stuff.


i haven't demanded evidence for jihadi style abuse. i have demanded evidence, which has not been forthcoming, over your notion of this being a sexual jihad.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Who are 'the left' as you keep referring to them and why are they to be held solely responsible for the actions of rapists and the failures of the police and other organs of a decidedly non-leftist state?



I am not holding the Left responsible for rapists or police failures.

I am holding them responsible for not providing an alternative narrative to the illiterate knuckledraggers on the right, who are unsurprising enjoying a post-Trump hatefest and swelling their number.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i haven't demanded evidence for jihadi style abuse. i have demanded evidence, which has not been forthcoming, over your notion of this being a sexual jihad.



The difference being?

Read the link I provided and give an honest opinion. It’s not that hard, even for an evasive wriggly little eel like you.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I am not holding the Left responsible for rapists or police failures.
> 
> I am holding them responsible for not providing an alternative narrative to the illiterate knuckledraggers on the right, who are unsurprising enjoying a post-Trump hatefest and swelling their number.



I've been out on the streets in Telford to oppose opportunistic mobilisations by Britain First and to talk with both local activists and the people at the local mosques to try and find ways to help, all long before this current scandal hit the papers. I don't recall running into you doing likewise.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Here’s another, from Swedish government, unless you’re squeamish about the source of this as well...

Sexual and gender-based violence is used as a tactic of terrorism | Swedish Foreign Policy News


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> I've been out on the streets in Telford to oppose opportunistic mobilisations by Britain First and to talk with both local activists and the people at the local mosques to try and find ways to help, all long before this current scandal hit the papers. I don't recall running into you doing likewise.



That’s great, and you have no idea what I’ve been doing so don’t be quick to assume.

So how do YOU counter the far right narrative surrounding the jihadi inspired grooming and abuse of children?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Here’s another, from Swedish government, unless you’re squeamish about the source of this as well...
> 
> Sexual and gender-based violence is used as a tactic of terrorism | Swedish Foreign Policy News



Here's a challenge, find the words 'Islam' or 'muslim' in that article.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> So how do YOU counter the far right narrative surrounding the jihadi inspired grooming and abuse of children?



Read my posts in response to you parroting that very same narrative and that should give you an inkling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> The difference being?
> 
> Read the link I provided and give an honest opinion. It’s not that hard, even for an evasive wriggly little eel like you.


I'll read your link when you apologise for lying.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

**old man shouts" it's not about race


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Here's a challenge, find the words 'Islam' or 'muslim' in that article.


I think one can very easily read between the lines given the huge rises in sexual assault crime reported in Sweden over the past decade - especially when they say “The link between rising extremism and violent targeting of women and girls is clear”.

They’re not talking about extreme snowboarders are they chief?


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll read your link when you apologise for lying.



Yep - slippery little eel, with worthless pithy contributions, just as I remember you from a decade ago. How very sad.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Mar 20, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Where did I say 'people only do what their culture tells them'? Most 70s rockstars weren't rapists either.
> 
> People are able to talk on here about 90s 'lad culture' and its effects on the attitudes of young men towards women. Surely we can also talk about British Muslim culture and its effects.



What is British Muslim culture? Given that Muslims in the UK have their roots in countries such as Nigeria, Turkey and Bangladesh and the diversity in religious practice and culture between Sunnis and Shias and all the sects within those two broad branches, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as British Muslim culture.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

The floor is pk's. Tell us.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> **old man shouts" it's not about race



I don’t see a racial element to this as I do a cultural one, an extremist religious dogmatic mysogynist culture imported from backward ideologies and a demonstrably common theme with almost all these grooming cases.
From the same chasm of medieval shit that brought honour killings, FGM and forced marriages into common being. IMO.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Yep - slippery little eel, with worthless pithy contributions, just as I remember you from a decade ago. How very sad.


Yeh. You love your lies, and you love your ad hominems.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I don’t see a racial element to this as I do a cultural one, an extremist religious dogmatic mysogynist culture imported from backward ideologies and a demonstrably common theme with almost all these grooming cases.
> From the same chasm of medieval shit that brought honour killings, FGM and forced marriages into common being. IMO.


You'll never find an alternative narrative to the fash one until you stop buying into so many of their tropes.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> What is British Muslim culture? Given that Muslims in the UK have their roots in countries such as Nigeria, Turkey and Bangladesh and the diversity in religious practice and culture between Sunnis and Shias and all the sects within those two broad branches, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as British Muslim culture.



I see the common specific branch of extremism which I believe to be the driving factor behind the attitudes of the men that groom children as being fostered in Pakistani based muslim attitudes. Not really the other countries mentioned, certainly not when one looks at the identities of those arrested and jailed for these crimes.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I don’t see a racial element to this as I do a cultural one, an extremist religious dogmatic mysogynist culture imported from backward ideologies and a demonstrably common theme with almost all these grooming cases.
> From the same chasm of medieval shit that brought honour killings, FGM and forced marriages into common being. IMO.


You literally posted last  night that _it wasn't just race._ So a genetic thing + religion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I see the common specific branch of extremism which I believe to be the driving factor behind the attitudes of the men that groom children as being fostered in Pakistani based muslim attitudes. Not really the other countries mentioned, certainly not when one looks at the identities of those arrested and jailed for these crimes.


So what is British Muslim culture?


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll never find an alternative narrative to the fash one until you stop buying into so many of their tropes.



Clearly I’m trying to counter these “tropes” but finding it hard to see anyone here who claims to be opposing fascists willing to engage with actual evidence or listen to the victims.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Clearly I’m trying to counter these “tropes” but finding it hard to see anyone here who claims to be opposing fascists willing to engage with actual evidence or listen to the victims.


So it's not in fact your view that backward ideologies are involved. This thread's been going for years.now and I'm sorry if we don't all jig to your tune. Perhaps you might find some of what you're looking for if you read the thread.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

You, knobhead, PK will be in brum? Will you fuck


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You literally posted last  night that _it wasn't just race._ So a genetic thing + religion.



The geographical accident of birth would dictate your melotonin levels as well as your cultural norms, but I’m not saying anyone is racially predisposed to commit such crimes.

That would be as backward as blaming the victims for their abuse.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> You, knobhead, PK will be in brum? Will you fuck



I might be. Will you?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Clearly I’m trying to counter these “tropes” but finding it hard to see anyone here who claims to be opposing fascists willing to engage with actual evidence or listen to the victims.



You're clearly struggling to see anything beyond the tip of your own nose at this point and I don't think we can be held responsible for that.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> So it's not in fact your view that backward ideologies are involved.



Of course they are. Stop wriggling and address the links you asked for.


----------



## RainbowTown (Mar 20, 2018)

I maybe wrong in this, I don't know, but I think the crux here is that these 'men' (I use the term loosely - pond life would be more appropriate) used their religion in a twisted and repulsive way in order to 'justify' their foul actions. In all truth, one cannot blame Islam or other Muslims for that abberation, just as one cannot blame all Catholics for the behaviour of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church or all Germans for the holocaust etc etc. The bottom line is the perpetrators here are sick, twisted and evil people with no moral compass - they used their religion (or their interpretation of their religion) to 'rationalize' their foul deeds. However, the overwhelming majority of people of every colour and creed  can see through such blatant and spurious bullshit. There's no doubt about that. They see these 'men' for exactly what they are. 

 For me, the real tragedy here is that these girls were victims twice over - first by the vermin that carried it out and second by sections of a society that turned a blind eye to it all.  A society that failed to listen and failed to act.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> That would be as backward as blaming the victims for their abuse.



With such phrases as 'sexual jihad' for example.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I might be. Will you?


No you won't. You are googling now


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> I maybe wrong in this, I don't know, but I think the crux here is that these 'men' (I use the term loosely - pond life would be more appropriate) used their religion in a twisted and repulsive way in order to 'justify' their foul actions. In all truth, one cannot blame Islam or other Muslims for that abberation, just as one cannot blame all Catholics for the behaviour of sexual abuse within the Catholic Church or all Germans for the holocaust etc etc. The bottom line is the perpetrators here are sick, twisted and evil people with no moral compass - they used their religion (or their interpretation of their religion) to 'rationalize' their foul deeds. However, the overwhelming majority of people of every colour and creed  can see through such blatant and spurious bullshit. There's no doubt about that. They see these 'men' for exactly what they are.
> 
> For me, the real tragedy here is that these girls were victims twice over - first by the vermin that carried it out and second by sections of a society that turned a blind eye to it all.  A society that failed to listen and failed to act.




Yes. And we can see here - the failure to listen and to act is continuing.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> No you won't. You are googling now



Yet I mentioned the date before you did. Who’s Googling?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Of course they are. Stop wriggling and address the links you asked for.


If you wish people to do as you ask, not lying about what they've said would be a start. Will you apologise for your lies? If you do then I'll consider reading your link.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Yes. And we can see here - the failure to listen and to act is continuing.



What's your plan of action again?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

The article in the Independent , which incidentially was retweeted by a number of proworking class left activists, is a good one imo. The fact that most of the liberal left would rather discuss #metoo,or  equal pay for the well off at the BBC rather than Telford  speaks volumes. The fact is that this is large scale sexual exploitation of working class girls labelled by sections of police , social services and other agencies as prostitutes,drug addicts  or at least 'hard to reach' 'dont want to engage' .However I am also conviced that the race and religion of the perpetrators is a significant factor not only in their actions but also in the actions of the agencies and council politicians concerned. If we dont ask the questions about why 84 per cent of all people convicted for gang grooming since 2005 were Asian and all but three of the victims white working class girls  rather than just blame men ,misogony , counterpose figures for paedophiles etc then someone else will and this case its the far right who monopolise it. It should have been the left first on the streets appalled at the lack of protection for working class girls not the right.The right dont want to solve the issue they only want to exploit it for the race angle , large parts of the liberal left dont want to solve it either they merely want it to go away.  
In Europe where immigration and sexual assault has raised its head in Sweden and Germany the rights response is this  “to give women courage and empower them to speak up against the consequences of a wrong immigration policy, whose first victims are girls and women and their freedom.”120 decibel ~ the real outcry


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> With such phrases as 'sexual jihad' for example.



I see that as accurate. It’s backed up by victim’s accounts and by the Swedish reports.
Sexual assault as a terror tactic.

Yes, 100% I stand by the term. It exists. Amazing how people are still insisting it doesn’t.
These fucks are fighting what they see as a holy war, and rape has long been a tactic of war as you well know.
Why are you so reluctant to accept the notion of a sexual jihad idea being at least a major factor behind the reported thousands of victims?


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> What's your plan of action again?



Accept some basic truths behind the motivations of the fuckers that commit such crimes.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> The article in the Independent , which incidentially was retweeted by a number of proworking class left activists, is a good one imo. The fact that most of the liberal left would rather discuss #metoo,or  equal pay for the well off at the BBC rather than Telford  speaks volumes. The fact is that this is large scale sexual exploitation of working class girls labelled by sections of police , social services and other agencies as prostitutes,drug addicts  or at least 'hard to reach' 'dont want to engage' .However I am also conviced that the race and religion of the perpetrators is a significant factor not only in their actions but also in the actions of the agencies and council politicians concerned. If we dont ask the questions about why 84 per cent of all people convicted for gang grooming since 2005 were Asian and all but three of the victims white working class girls  rather than just blame men ,misogony , counterpose figures for paedophiles etc then someone else will and this case its the far right who monopolise it. It should have been the left first on the streets appalled at the lack of protection for working class girls not the right.The right dont want to solve the issue they only want to exploit it for the race angle , large parts of the liberal left dont want to solve it either they merely want it to go away.
> In Europe where immigration and sexual assault has raised its head in Sweden and Germany the rights response is this  “to give women courage and empower them to speak up against the consequences of a wrong immigration policy, whose first victims are girls and women and their freedom.”120 decibel ~ the real outcry



Thank-you. That is a good start.

"These assaults are not caused because of the biological or racial make-up of migrants, they are caused by the misogynistic cultural-conditioning that migrants inherit from majority-Muslim countries where in many cases women are treated like second-class citizens."

Fucking exactly this.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> If you wish people to do as you ask, not lying about what they've said would be a start. Will you apologise for your lies? If you do then I'll consider reading your link.



Go away, silly boy, you had your chance & blew it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I see that as accurate. It’s backed up by victim’s accounts and by the Swedish reports.
> Sexual assault as a terror tactic.
> 
> Yes, 100% I stand by the term. It exists. Amazing how people are still insisting it doesn’t.
> ...



Again you're taking the words of child rapists as somehow valid. If I shot a bunch of schoolkids and then told everyone Bugs Bunny made me do it, would you take that at face value or would you think that my actions and the sheer implausibility of my justification for them were good indicators that I wasn't talking sense?


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## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Thank-you. That is a good start.


I'm speaking to the other posters not you


----------



## likesfish (Mar 20, 2018)

It is a specific culture that allows these types of gangs to exist if it was normal nonce behavior 90% of scum done for this would be white.

 I don't think the sexual jihad is real its just an excuse much like the shankhill butchers thought they were fighting a war rather than being sick cunts who had an excuse to really go to town. white girls are slags is the excuse.
 religion and ideology and be used to excuse any horror especially if you don't look to hard into it a few years ago there was a Somali street gang in London claiming they were jihadists pity they weren't taken at there word just to see the mugging stab happy twats face being sent to gitmo*

* wouldnt send anyone to Gitmo even actual jihadists but seeing some knife carrying twat face fall at being taken seriously as a terrorist would be  but then I'm quite evil.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I'm speaking to the other posters not you



I don't give a fuck who you're speaking to, you're backing up what I'm saying and I'll thank who I like.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Accept some basic truths behind the motivations of the fuckers that commit such crimes.



And you've objectively determined what those motivations were by what methodology exactly?

That aside, how does your acceptance of these doubtless highly scientific findings help anyone? Are there victims whose burdens have been lifted by the news of your acceptance of some made up reasons why they suffered as they did? Do you have quotes from them too?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 20, 2018)

A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clearly or unambiguous.


RainbowTown said:


> Wherever the blame lies in this horrific matter, and whatever the so-called reasoning behind it is (though there is no reasoning, is there? - these 'men' are simply vile pigs, scumbags of the first order and hopefully not long for this earth) - one thing is remains certain: these girls were grotesquely let down by everyone - the police, the council, the relevant authorities. And no amount of bullshit retrospective inquiries or 'apologies' or 'lessons to be learnt' spiel will alter that fact. Deplorable, shameful and disgusting doesn't even cover it.


A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clear or unambiguous:

As virtually everyone has said, this is about class and gender. It's about the truly gruesome attitudes and working practices of public bodies that felt able to avoid doing the very thing they were supposed to be doing for several decades - look out for those kids.  It's vile, it's the very worst of what local government is/was (and the police) and it involved a sickening degree of victim blaming. All of that dwarfs issues about 'culture', religion or anything else. And the reasons it dwarfs all that is that the vast majority of Muslim or Asian men would have been just horrified as everyone else by what went on.

Is that end of story? Well, maybe there's 2 sets of facts that still need to be kept in view. I won't dig out the links but around 90% of child sex offenders are white ( a slight over representation of white men).  However there is also an overrepresentation of Asian men in grooming/collective sex offences against children (without getting into the fact that not all the studies are working with very good data).  Seems to me, if you want to make some kind of realistic assessment of the offence, that's the starting point.  Recognising that abuse is overwhelmingly about class and gender and carried out by white men - but that collective abuse sees an over representation of Asian men. In getting into that, 'gang' seems like a good starting point, thinking about communities, lack of integration, rather than generalisations about 'race'. That's not 'grooming happens because of racism', it's more about asking how do specific sets of blokes get to the point in there lives where they are willing to rape children and teenagers. It's about examining a crime and social phenomena the way you would with any other. Fwiw, I wouldn't shy away from keeping religious attitudes in the mix there, just as much as I wouldn't when looking at, say Christianity and domestic violence. But - and it would have been quicker to just say this - it's simply not a form of abuse that's _*defined by*_ ethnicity or religion.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> So what is British Muslim culture?


There isnt but successive governments and very often more worrying the Labour Party insist on using conservative Muslim community leaders as their litmus paper rather than progressives who are also Muslim


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> There isnt but successive governments and very often more worrying the Labour Party insist on using conservative Muslim community leaders as their litmus paper rather than progressives who are also Muslim



You'll never go far wrong being wary of any fucker who styles himself 'community leader'.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 20, 2018)

Wilf said:


> A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clearly or unambiguous.
> 
> A hesitant post - hesitant not out of some sort of cowardice on a difficult issue, but because my own thoughts are not clear or unambiguous:
> 
> ...


Look how easy it is.Ta.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> What is British Muslim culture? Given that Muslims in the UK have their roots in countries such as Nigeria, Turkey and Bangladesh and the diversity in religious practice and culture between Sunnis and Shias and all the sects within those two broad branches, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as British Muslim culture.


Would have been more accurate to have used the word cultures plural. While acknowledging the fuzzy edges, commonalities and overlaps that will exist between them. You're right that any consideration of cultures is going to be complicated and nuanced. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> I don't give a fuck who you're speaking to, you're backing up what I'm saying and I'll thank who I like.


The only time I'd back you up is over a cliff gobshite


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> You'll never go far wrong being wary of any fucker who styles himself 'community leader'.


Problem is the Labour party's relationship with them is that theyll bring out the votes. Look what happened in Machester when  a young woman councillor who was Muslim attacked the conservatism of the community leaders. She was ousted within three months by Labour. Sarah Champion was another victim of not wanting to offend community leaders.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Go away, silly boy, you had your chance & blew it.


yeh yeh

You're as honest as you ever were, which is to say not at all. If you gave a fuck about the abused girls you hide it well, and if you cared about countering the fascist narrative you wouldn't regurgitate that guff about backward ideologies so reminiscent of Golding, Robinson etc


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> And you've objectively determined what those motivations were by what methodology exactly?
> 
> That aside, how does your acceptance of these doubtless highly scientific findings help anyone? Are there victims whose burdens have been lifted by the news of your acceptance of some made up reasons why they suffered as they did? Do you have quotes from them too?



Motivations that have been seen in other areas of similarly inspired extremism. Such as with ISIS and the Yazidi women.
Yazidi Victim of ISIS: ‘I Was Gang-Raped, They Call This Practice Sexual Jihad’


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> The only time I'd back you up is over a cliff gobshite



Of course you would LOL yet you'll never quite know why. 
Another lemming herd-follower in a PC circle jerk that is going nowhere but over a cliff yourself, I suspect.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Yazidi Victim of ISIS: ‘I Was Gang-Raped, They Call This Practice Sexual Jihad’



Again, why should we believe them when they say they're raping people for some higher purpose?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Motivations that have been seen in other areas of similarly inspired extremism. Such as with ISIS and the Yazidi women.
> Yazidi Victim of ISIS: ‘I Was Gang-Raped, They Call This Practice Sexual Jihad’


Yeh. We all know ISIS are very keen on their Koran. So you're saying Pakistani salafists are taking ill paid jobs and using alcohol to inveigle vulnerable young women into situations where they can be raped for religious purposes.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh yeh
> 
> You're as honest as you ever were, which is to say not at all. If you gave a fuck about the abused girls you hide it well, and if you cared about countering the fascist narrative you wouldn't regurgitate that guff about backward ideologies so reminiscent of Golding, Robinson etc


 Any survivor of organised sexual abuse would be comforted by by his announcement on a thread concerned with sexual abuse that his house is worth £400k.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 20, 2018)

cypriot men on the strip had similar attitudes tourists were slags available for sex while their Women had to remain pure it was bullshit then.
 they also believed every squaddie was a master of kung fu


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

When the statistics are known it becomes far more apparent that the endemic attitudes are fostered by these young men as being their "islamic duty" or some such religious dogmatic justification, which plays a part in the attacks throughout.

So - whatever you think of me, or however much you think I give a fuck about your opinions of me - just keep talking about this issue. Here are more links for certain people to ignore. 


Street Grooming, Criminality and Culture

Grooming Gang Statistics — Culture and Politics for the 21st Century

Sex abuse gangs view white girls as 'worthless' and 'trash'

Asian men targeting underage white girls for sex abuse in 'profoundly racist crime'

Oxford grooming gang: We will regret ignoring Asian thugs who target white girls

Yasmin Alibhai Brown: Jack Straw is right to ask hard questions about

Rochdale grooming trial: Mohammed Shafiq, the campaigner who stood up to the abusers


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> Again, why should we believe them when they say they're raping people for some higher purpose?



Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not. Where do you think this collective idea comes from? I for one think it comes from the same circles as the jihadi pro-ISIS online and extremist preacher networks. 
It's a form of "they bomb our brothers, we rape their daughters" mentality. 
I find it staggering that most here don't find that obvious. 

Anyway - I stuck up a bunch of links, I'm not getting into a pointless slagging match with anyone, this is too important and it needs addressing. It certainly needs confronting by the sections on the Left that are afraid to face the truth of it, and unwilling to hear what the actual victims have to say.


----------



## RainbowTown (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> The article in the Independent , which incidentially was retweeted by a number of proworking class left activists, is a good one imo. The fact that most of the liberal left would rather discuss #metoo,or  equal pay for the well off at the BBC rather than Telford  speaks volumes. The fact is that this is large scale sexual exploitation of working class girls labelled by sections of police , social services and other agencies as prostitutes,drug addicts  or at least 'hard to reach' 'dont want to engage' .However I am also conviced that the race and religion of the perpetrators is a significant factor not only in their actions but also in the actions of the agencies and council politicians concerned. If we dont ask the questions about why 84 per cent of all people convicted for gang grooming since 2005 were Asian and all but three of the victims white working class girls  rather than just blame men ,misogony , counterpose figures for paedophiles etc then someone else will and this case its the far right who monopolise it. It should have been the left first on the streets appalled at the lack of protection for working class girls not the right.The right dont want to solve the issue they only want to exploit it for the race angle , large parts of the liberal left dont want to solve it either they merely want it to go away.
> In Europe where immigration and sexual assault has raised its head in Sweden and Germany the rights response is this  “to give women courage and empower them to speak up against the consequences of a wrong immigration policy, whose first victims are girls and women and their freedom.”120 decibel ~ the real outcry



I agree. There does need to be a truthful, informed and rational debate from ALL SIDES about this issue. And uncomfortable questions asked where necessary. And, far more importantly, appropriate action taken where necessary. Political and cultural sensitivities should to put aside, if need be, in order to get to the truth of why these type of crimes and behaviour occur and what  the response to it should be. My point though remains thus; one cannot tar all people with the same brush, even if those carrying out such crimes are claiming they are doing it in the name of _their_ religion or culture. That's simply their depraved reasoning, trying to justify the unjustifiable. Likewise, though, I do concur there has been a failure by _some _on the liberal Left and by those in the Media to address this issue as thoroughly as it should be.That was/is wholly wrong and should be accounted for. Definitely so. More worryingly, though, for me is the lack of action by those in authority; the councils, the police, the social services and other agencies. That they are now - albeit belatedly -  being called out about it, and being taken to task about it, is a good thing. However, the truth is they should have been doing their job in the first place. That they didn't do was an utter disgrace to the victims and to the wider community at large. A systematic failure and abdication of moral and practical responsibility that is both deplorable and unforgivable.


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> ...More worryingly, though, for me is the lack of action by those in authority; the councils, the police, the social services and other agencies. That they are now - albeit belatedly -  being called out about it, and being taken to task about it, is a good thing. However, the truth is they should have been doing their job in the first place. That they didn't do was an utter disgrace to the victims and to the wider community at large. A systematic failure and abdication of moral and practical responsibility that is both deplorable and unforgivable.



More of an immediate problem is the fact that those sentenced to 22 years jail for grooming in these gangs are being considered for release after only 5 years.
As much as I’d like to see Paul Golding exit his current prison sentence in a coffin, these child rapist cunts deserve that fate a lot more.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> I agree. There does need to be a truthful, informed and rational debate from ALL SIDES about this issue. And uncomfortable questions asked where necessary. And, far more importantly, appropriate action taken where necessary. Political and cultural sensitivities should to put aside, if need be, in order to get to the truth of why these type of crimes and behaviour occur and what  the response to it should be. My point though remains thus; one cannot tar all people with the same brush, even if those carrying out such crimes are claiming they are doing it in the name of _their_ religion or culture. That's simply their depraved reasoning, trying to justify the unjustifiable. Likewise, though, I do concur there has been a failure by _some _on the liberal Left and by those in the Media to address this issue as thoroughly as it should be.That was/is wholly wrong and should be accounted for. Definitely so. More worryingly, though, for me is the lack of action by those in authority; the councils, the police, the social services and other agencies. That they are now - albeit belatedly -  being called out about it, and being taken to task about it, is a good thing. However, the truth is they should have been doing their job in the first place. That they didn't do was an utter disgrace to the victims and to the wider community at large. A systematic failure and abdication of moral and practical responsibility that is both deplorable and unforgivable.



I agree 100% that we shouldnt tar all people with the same brush and I'd go further in arguing that we need to back up those who are Muslim who have mainly been ignored or dismissed by the liberal left for speaking out.The Ramadhan Foundation, Southall Black Sisters, Maajid Narwaz, Sarar Khan have often been victims of this and the conservatism within some Muslim communities is so deep that people often have to speak privately about their disgust about these events.
I am not sure that I have heard anyone claiming that they are an abuser because of their religion or culture .Most of these perpetrators took drugs, drank alcohol and often forced their victims to have abortions which is strictly against their religion.Some of the perpetrators were also involved in drug gangs and traded the girls for cash.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 20, 2018)

Just realised PK is taking the U*K*I*P* line here,  one which has brought them to the brink of bankruptcy cos they couldn't prove in court  the very charges that PK is levelling at 'the left'.


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## likesfish (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> snip which is strictly against their religion.Some of the perpetrators were also involved in drug gangs and traded the girls for cash.




but of course, the scum will have a Koran in their cell demanding halal meals and attend the mosque all the time in jail and probably be backed by their "community leader" kind of hard not to damned if you do dammed if you don't, the fash use this as an excuse to attack every brown person. The Community won't like it as they get the blame regardless of any blame.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> Just realised PK is taking the U*K*I*P* line here,  one which has brought them to the brink of bankruptcy cos they couldn't prove in court  the very charges that PK is levelling at 'the left'.



Sorry what “line” is that?

I don’t follow what UKIP are bothered about, they’re a single issue party that achieved their aims and those that bankrolled them will no doubt benefit from not being subject to the strict new EU laws surrounding off-shore tax havens. Fuck them and fuck Farage in particular, that little cunt should have died in that plane crash.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I agree 100% that we shouldnt tar all people with the same brush and I'd go further in arguing that we need to back up those who are Muslim who have mainly been ignored or dismissed by the liberal left for speaking out.The Ramadhan Foundation, Southall Black Sisters, Maajid Narwaz, Sarar Khan have often been victims of this and the conservatism within some Muslim communities is so deep that people often have to speak privately about their disgust about these events.
> I am not sure that I have heard anyone claiming that they are an abuser because of their religion or culture .Most of these perpetrators took drugs, drank alcohol and often forced their victims to have abortions which is strictly against their religion.Some of the perpetrators were also involved in drug gangs and traded the girls for cash.



It’s a shame Corbyn got rid of Sarah Champion for her article stating what I believe to be blatantly obvious. Although she should never have written for The Scum so she doesn’t have my sympathy.
However she articulates accurately what I’ve been saying: Sarah Champion: Labour's 'floppy left' falls silent when issues touch on race


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## redsquirrel (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> The left got this one completely wrong, from the very start. Largely due to the denial and the fingerpointing of idiots like Butchers that have never really travelled around the planet and seen the wider picture beyond small-time west country politics and charity shop bookshelves.


I know it's not worth engaging with this prick but this just shows exactly how deluded PK is. 

BA (and others danny la rouge, Fozzie Bear, The39thStep etc) have been critical of state multiculturalism and identity politics ever since I've been on U75 (for which they've often being called racists). As for the 'traveled around the planet' crap, you utter twat.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> I know it's not worth engaging with this prick but this just shows exactly how deluded PK is.
> 
> BA (and others danny la rouge, Fozzie Bear, The39thStep etc) have been critical of state multiculturalism and identity politics ever since I've been on U75 (for which they've often being called racists). As for the 'traveled around the planet' crap, you utter twat.



Everyone here gets called “racist” at some point, it’s almost a badge of honour.
And the thing about travelling is valid.
I’ve spent months in at least 5 muslim countries, travelling with girlfriends and female friends, and the idea that someone with no experience of the world beyond Turbo Island can comment on cultural attitudes held by many muslim men towards women is fucking laughable to me. Try making your way through Indonesia with a lady friend after sunset.


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## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> I know it's not worth engaging with this prick but this just shows exactly how deluded PK is.
> 
> BA (and others danny la rouge, Fozzie Bear, The39thStep etc) have been critical of state multiculturalism and identity politics ever since I've been on U75 (for which they've often being called racists). As for the 'traveled around the planet' crap, you utter twat.


He's got a house worth £400k you know?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> He's got a house worth £400k you know?


That's how you can measure the value of his opinions.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> He's got a house worth £400k you know?



What have you done with the past 10 years, apart from the usual dull circlejerking here you did 10 years prior to that?

Does it not depress you to think about it?

Best thing about not spending time discussing same old shite on urban75 was gaining so much time to enjoy the real world, and there is still clearly plenty of evidence to suggest that many here really, really need to do that.


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## Wilf (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not.


 But it's not unusual for abusers to think about their victims as 'slags', 'wanting it' or whatever - regardless of whether those abusers are TV slebs, politicians visiting children's homes or just common or garden rapists.  In fact those attitudes/self delusions/justifications pretty much define sexual abuse.


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## Thimble Queen (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not. Where do you think this collective idea comes from? I for one think it comes from the same circles as the jihadi pro-ISIS online and extremist preacher networks.
> It's a form of "they bomb our brothers, we rape their daughters" mentality.
> I find it staggering that most here don't find that obvious.
> 
> Anyway - I stuck up a bunch of links, I'm not getting into a pointless slagging match with anyone, this is too important and it needs addressing. It certainly needs confronting by the sections on the Left that are afraid to face the truth of it, and unwilling to hear what the actual victims have to say.



Where did you get the idea that muslim girls don't get abused? My understanding is that Muslim girls are less likely to speak out especially when the abusers are within the family or their own communities.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Wilf said:


> But it's not unusual for abusers to think about their victims as 'slags', 'wanting it' or whatever - regardless of whether those abusers are TV slebs, politicians visiting children's homes or just common or garden rapists.  In fact those attitudes/self delusions/justifications pretty much define sexual abuse.



True. But given the co-ordinated nature of the gangs, the sheer number of victims - apparently as many as 100,000, it seems this is more of a systematic approach. And victims being constantly told they are worth less as a result of their status as non-muslims, not a million miles from the caste systems that prevail in the abusers’ countries of origin.

And even if there were no grooming gangs preying on non-muslim children, the attitudes to all women are plainly abhorrent and against all that those with a progressive mindset want to see.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Because this is how the behaviour has proliferated into towns and cities all over the UK. The one theme in common with all these grooming gangs is that they genuinely believe that "white girls are slags, infidels, and deserve rape", whereas girls from their own communities do not. Where do you think this collective idea comes from? I for one think it comes from the same circles as the jihadi pro-ISIS online and extremist preacher networks.
> It's a form of "they bomb our brothers, we rape their daughters" mentality.
> I find it staggering that most here don't find that obvious.
> 
> Anyway - I stuck up a bunch of links, I'm not getting into a pointless slagging match with anyone, this is too important and it needs addressing. It certainly needs confronting by the sections on the Left that are afraid to face the truth of it, and unwilling to hear what the actual victims have to say.


the truth? You can't handle the truth or you wouldn't make such flagrant errors as your same circles as pro-isis fuckwittery. ISIS kill people for smoking. They'd have killed these perps for drinking, if nothing else. Yeh this is an important topic, too important for the half-baked ignorant wank you post.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> Where did you get the idea that muslim girls don't get abused? My understanding is that Muslim girls are less likely to speak out especially when the abusers are within the family or their own communities.



There is no comparison to the scale of co-ordinated abuses - upon as many as 100,000 girls - committed against muslim children as compared to white non-muslim children.

I think all but three victims were white British in one of the largest cases.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> There is no comparison to the scale of co-ordinated abuses - upon as many as 100,000 girls - committed against muslim children as compared to white non-muslim children.
> 
> I think all but three victims were white British in one of the largest cases.


Could you show the working for this 100,000 claim pls


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> Where did you get the idea that muslim girls don't get abused? My understanding is that Muslim girls are less likely to speak out especially when the abusers are within the family or their own communities.



_Ed: removed link to Peter McLoughlin who writes books with Tommy Robinson_


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> Grooming Gang Statistics — Culture and Politics for the 21st Century


Yeh. You've been here long enough I thought you'd know not to link to right wing websites, the my new book authored with Tommy Robinson ought to give the game away even to someone like you.


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

It is of course worth noting that the tory pigfucker Jacob Reece-Mogg would be opposed to these child victims obtaining an abortion.
I wonder if he would feel that way if the Telford kebab house boys took his daughter...


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## Wilf (Mar 20, 2018)

likesfish said:


> It is a specific culture that allows these types of gangs to exist if it was normal nonce behavior 90% of scum done for this would be white.


 I wouldn't accept the underlined bit, certainly as you put it. However, again, it's worth keeping the overall pattern in view. White men are slightly over-represented in abuse per se and Asian men in collective abuse (and, fwiw, I have a vague memory that white men are over represented in downloading child porn). From that you can certainly say there are different patterns between groups in the way they _do_ abuse, but that itself doesn't lend itself to crude generalisations about religions, cultures or ethnicities.  From that there's a messy discussion to be had about why the _minority of Asians/Muslims who abuse_ do in different ways to the _minority of white men who abuse _- and I think that frames the discussion correctly, k*eeping the abuse centre stage rather than starting with ethnicity*.  But the only _unambiguous_ thing you can say is about the _victims_ - working class, female and often vulnerable.  That's the dynamic - in terms of who the victims are and why they were dismissed.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 20, 2018)

So lets recap : The Left are to blame for this problem.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> So lets recap : The Left are to blame for this problem.


I wonder if pk also posts as ole


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## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> It is of course worth noting that the tory pigfucker Jacob Reece-Mogg would be opposed to these child victims obtaining an abortion.
> I wonder if he would feel that way if the Telford kebab house boys took his daughter...


Rees-Mogg


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## Thimble Queen (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> There is no comparison to the scale of co-ordinated abuses - upon as many as 100,000 girls - committed against muslim children as compared to white non-muslim children.
> 
> I think all but three victims were white British in one of the largest cases.



Asian and muslim girls are getting abused by grooming gangs. They are less likely to speak out because of cultural issues and they are less likely to have it picked up by social services, gps etc. It's simply not true that it's only white girls getting targeted.

www.aljazeera.com/amp/indepth/features/2013/09/report-rising-sexual-abuse-uk-minorities-2013926154815405654.html


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## Thimble Queen (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> It is of course worth noting that the tory pigfucker Jacob Reece-Mogg would be opposed to these child victims obtaining an abortion.
> *I wonder if he would feel that way if the Telford kebab house boys took his daughter...*



That's fucking grim.


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## TopCat (Mar 20, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> So lets recap : The Left are to blame for this problem.


I blame religion.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 20, 2018)

I was going to sit down and watch babylon berlin, but this thread is diverting me. Its like all the worst daily mail articles combined with the execption of Dementia and house prices


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## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> Asian and muslim girls are getting abused by grooming gangs. They are less likely to speak out because of cultural issues and they are less likely to have it picked up by social services, gps etc. It's simply not true that it's only white girls getting targeted.
> 
> www.aljazeera.com/amp/indepth/features/2013/09/report-rising-sexual-abuse-uk-minorities-2013926154815405654.html



but that doesnt fit the sexual jihaad theory


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## Wilf (Mar 20, 2018)

pk said:


> True. But given the co-ordinated nature of the gangs, the sheer number of victims - apparently as many as 100,000, it seems this is more of a systematic approach. And victims being constantly told they are worth less as a result of their status as non-muslims, not a million miles from the caste systems that prevail in the abusers’ countries of origin.
> 
> And even if there were no grooming gangs preying on non-muslim children, the attitudes to all women are plainly abhorrent and against all that those with a progressive mindset want to see.


 I see you've not taken on board Thimble Queen 's point about there not being a generic British Muslim position. But anyway, as I'm not an adherent of top down state multiculturalism/liberalism, I'm happy to say I don't share attitudes of many Muslim groups towards women, or more to the point, in as much as they have solidified with forms of secular power in many countries.  And yes, I don't share those of many other religions.  But as has been said to you, the men carrying out the abuse are not simply products of the Mosque - anything but in terms of their wider behaviour. This is just reductionist crap.


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## The39thStep (Mar 20, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I was going to sit down and watch babylon berlin, but this thread is diverting me. Its like all the worst daily mail articles combined with the execption of Dementia and house prices


I've been meaning to watch that but I've succomed to watching David Ickes's DJ barking at car exhausts


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## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

Wilf said:


> ...as has been said to you, the men carrying out the abuse are not simply products of the Mosque - anything but in terms of their wider behaviour. This is just reductionist crap.



No. The men are products of the worst excesses of backward Pakistani culture, with added wahaabist militancy thrown into the mix.

Nowhere in Europe can I imagine this example of sanctioned “revenge rape” happening:
Pakistan teenager suffers 'revenge rape'


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> That's fucking grim.



Of course it’s fucking grim, nobody would turn a blind eye to it then - like they did in Oxford, Telford, Rotherham, Rochdale...

Fact is, majority white British police and social services knew about these paedophile networks and turned a blind eye, for fear of being labelled racist.

Backward South Asian attitudes towards women have taken root in the UK, and the hugely disproportionate amount of white victims (muslim victims of this type of paedophilia/grooming gang activity likely account for less than 1%) means it’s time to kick the can over and examine the backward attitudes without fear of being accused of racism.

And start locking up members of South Yorkshire police? At least that’s something the Left can get behind...


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## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> No. The men are products of the worst excesses of backward Pakistani culture, with added wahaabist militancy thrown into the mix.
> 
> Nowhere in Europe can I imagine this example of sanctioned “revenge rape” happening:
> Pakistan teenager suffers 'revenge rape'


Well, look, if you want me to say Wahaabi is shit, I'm with you. But if you're happy to pin grooming gangs down to a single unambiguous cause like this, I'll have to go with 'why or why does the Church of England force individual white men to rape children? Why does the C of E create 90% of all nonces'?  Doesn't get you very far does it?


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 21, 2018)

I am slightly uneasy about the undercurrent of rape is a tool of war themes going on here. "they're raping our women" has been an oft used trope designed to further a political positon. This doesnt mean however that it isnt true. Sanctioned rape is well documented from WW2, through to Bosnia and East Africa of late. To suggest that this is any kind of semi-organised or ordained programme - which is what I am getting here- is seemingly mostly anecdotal.


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## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> Of course it’s fucking grim, nobody would turn a blind eye to it then - like they did in Oxford, Telford, Rotherham, Rochdale....


No. If a senior MP's daughter was abused, the papers would be all over it because of the wealth, power and status of the parent. Which takes us right back to the class (and gender) of the victims.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I am slightly uneasy about the undercurrent of rape is a tool of war themes going on here. "they're raping our women" has been an oft used trope designed to further a political positon. This doesnt mean however that it isnt true. Sanctioned rape is well documented from WW2, through to Bosnia and East Africa of late. To suggest that this is any kind of semi-organised or ordained programme - which is what I am getting here- is seemingly mostly anecdotal.



Rape has long been a tool of war especially in Pakistan.

Wiki:
During the Bangladesh Liberation War, it is estimated that between 400,000 and 600,000 women and girls were sexually assaulted by the Pakistan armed forces and the Al-Badr ("the moon") and the Al-Shams ("the sun") militias that supported them.

Child sexual abuse is widespread in Pakistani Islamic schools.
In a study of child sexual abuse in Rawalpindi and Islamabad, out of a sample of 300 children 17% claimed to have been abused and in 1997 one child a day was reported as raped, gang raped or kidnapped for sexual gratification.
In September 2014, the British Channel 4 broadcast a documentary called Pakistan's Hidden Shame, directed by Mohammed Naqvi and produced by Jamie Doran, which highlighted the problem of sexual abuse of street children in particular, an estimated 90 percent of whom have been sexually abused.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 21, 2018)

Why Especially Pakistan ? What about the Congo for example- sexual abuse on a mammoth scale isnt a particularly unique trait to Pakistan.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> No. If a senior MP's daughter was abused, the papers would be all over it because of the wealth, power and status of the parent. Which takes us right back to the class (and gender) of the victims.



There are class issues at play, for sure.
And comparisons could be made with upper class tory and other politicians raping children from care homes.
The difference being, these grooming gangs appear to have been able to carry out such vile crimes under the knowledge of police and social services with impunity.

And it’s still happening now. And the Mercedes and BMW cars with underaged white children in them being driven around cities and towns right now are still not being stopped.

Start by crushing the cars that ferry these underage groomed girls around. Then seize business premises & properties that are owned by the perpetrators. Then, after jail (and full sentences, not 22 years commuted to 5 as we are now seeing) deport them back to where their backward ideas originated.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> Why Especially Pakistan ? What about the Congo for example- sexual abuse on a mammoth scale isnt a particularly unique trait to Pakistan.



Because 4.5 percent of the UK is from Pakistan, not the Congo.

Because 90% of the child grooming gang members are from Pakistan, not the Congo.


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## not-bono-ever (Mar 21, 2018)

right.

eta

I can see your agenda now 

enjoy


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## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> There are class issues at play, for sure.
> And comparisons could be made with upper class tory and other politicians raping children from care homes.
> The difference being, these grooming gangs appear to have been able to carry out such vile crimes under the knowledge of police and social services with impunity.


Have a feeling the various political nonces have been getting away for a few years also.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:
			
		

> sexual abuse on a mammoth scale isnt a particularly unique trait to Pakistan.



Clearly in the UK - it is.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Have a feeling the various political nonces have been getting away for a few years also.



I would agree. And my opinion remains unchanged - paedophiles need to be put to death. 
Perhaps not state sanctioned, because the state cannot be entrusted, but certainly if there were circumstances where parents of victims faced no charges for arranging or committing the murder of their child’s attacker - that would be something I would approve of.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> right.
> 
> eta
> 
> ...



Agenda??

Do explain what you think that might be?


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## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> I would agree. And my opinion remains unchanged - paedophiles need to be put to death.
> Perhaps not state sanctioned, because the state cannot be entrusted, but certainly if there were circumstances where parents of victims faced no charges for arranging or committing the murder of their child’s attacker - that would be something I would approve of.


That policy would decimate the ranks of the light entertainment industry (it's in their culture you know ).


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> That policy would decimate the ranks of the light entertainment industry (it's in their culture you know ).



Child rape? Really?

I think you’re wilfully trying to make light of all this Wilf.

“Oh don’t be so silly, it’s not muslims raping children for quasi-religious reasons!”

Really. Ask a British muslim what they think.
Read up on how rape is endemic in Pakistan and especially of children.

And ask yourself how healthy is the self-imposed isolation of hundreds of large muslim communities that refuse to integrate with UK society and who are easy targets for the mad mullahs and extremist imams espousing ideas such as rape being justified in the religious texts that they cannot even read.

Or do you also think I have an “agenda”, beyond the whole, y’know, preventing children being raped thing?


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## editor (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> I wonder if he would feel that way if the Telford kebab house boys took his daughter...


Wishing rape on a child - any child - really isn't on at all.


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## editor (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> I’m glad you lot chose not to have kids TBH


Remember what I told you about dredging up the personal stuff? Please stop.


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## The39thStep (Mar 21, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> I am slightly uneasy about the undercurrent of rape is a tool of war themes going on here. "they're raping our women" has been an oft used trope designed to further a political positon. This doesnt mean however that it isnt true. Sanctioned rape is well documented from WW2, through to Bosnia and East Africa of late. To suggest that this is any kind of semi-organised or ordained programme - which is what I am getting here- is seemingly mostly anecdotal.



Its not just anecdotal its batshit the enemy is within dont order a curry cos they are all financing terrorism they might be polite but secretly they are all supporting terrorism or are raping our women  conspiracy web crap.Even more bizarre when the person who says it allegedly  goes touring Islamic countries with his girlfriends/chicks Just as well an acid burnt out Peter Davison look a like is there to protect them.

Lets be clear , it is a fact that there  is an over representation of muslim men from the Indian subcontinent in the UK involved in organised sexual exploitation of white working class young girls. It is very hard to get away from this point and it doesn't do the victims any favours when people try and wriggle out of it.However what the Epsom Arsonist is suggesting is that the abuse of  white working class girls is an organised and concious action, a sexual jihaadi , by Islamacists in the UK. He believes that this is a second front;bombs, stabbings , cars being driven into innocent people and then the sanctioned rape of pre teens and teenagers, all in the name of Islam.
What I'm surprised his alleged Muslim girlfriend/chick never let him in on the secret.Unless  of course,with hindsight,  she could have been part of the plan.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Wishing rape on a child - any child - really isn't on at all.



Of course I didn’t wish rape on a child, that’s fucking ridiculous. But Reece-Mogg is tory vermin and his views are as backward as those of the groomers IMO


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

editor said:


> Remember what I told you about dredging up the personal stuff? Please stop.



I see, so it’s the usual gimps bashing the Report button LOL how some things never change


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## editor (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> I see, so it’s the usual gimps bashing the Report button LOL how some things never change


The rules are the same ans you've already been asked to stop posting up personal stuff. It's entirely possible to have a robust exchange of views without resorting to personal digs and insults. All that stuff nearly killed the boards back in the day ad it's not going to happen again.


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## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Its not just anecdotal its batshit the enemy is within dont order a curry cos they are all financing terrorism they might be polite but secretly they are all supporting terrorism or are raping our women  conspiracy web crap.Even more bizarre when the person who says it allegedly  goes touring Islamic countries with his girlfriends/chicks Just as well an acid burnt out Peter Davison look a like is there to protect them.
> 
> Lets be clear , it is a fact that there  is an over representation of muslim men from the Indian subcontinent in the UK involved in organised sexual exploitation of white working class young girls. It is very hard to get away from this point and it doesn't do the victims any favours when people try and wriggle out of it.However what the Epsom Arsonist is suggesting is that the abuse of  white working class girls is an organised and concious action, a sexual jihaadi , by Islamacists in the UK. He believes that this is a second front;bombs, stabbings , cars being driven into innocent people and then the sanctioned rape of pre teens and teenagers, all in the name of Islam.
> What I'm surprised his alleged Muslim girlfriend/chick never let him in on the secret.Unless  of course,with hindsight,  she could have been part of the plan.



I ordered a curry from my Pakistani brethren tonight. Very nice it was too.
I very much doubt the grooming gangs were in any way connected to actual terror cells.

But in your rabid hysteria and desperate need to try and “trigger” me haha you reveal that you still likely drink too much but you did say this: 

“the abuse of  white working class girls is an organised and concious action, a sexual jihad”

This is I believe one of the main motivations for the child rape gangs, and I stand by it.


----------



## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

editor said:


> The rules are the same ans you've already been asked to stop posting up personal stuff. It's entirely possible to have a robust exchange of views without resorting to personal digs and insults. All that stuff nearly killed the boards back in the day ad it's not going to happen again.



What nearly killed the boards was seperate boards being created to slag you off, which then got hacked to fuck by me, and for which I am hated by those that made them, and constantly since - my posts are reported in case I remind Butchers about how he threatened to call the police on you 

But I am not here to drag all that up.
You’ll notice I’ve not reported a single post on this thread, because I still just laugh it up just like old times.


----------



## pk (Mar 21, 2018)

I pity those that need to go crying to the moderators. I think we both know who that is.


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## purenarcotic (Mar 21, 2018)

Pk you’re full of shit - the class element is being sidelined and that’s much more important and relevant here. This is happening to working class girls, this is not happening in nice middle class neighbourhoods with kids going to nice private school. Rape and sexual violence happens to all women regardless but these rings happened primarily because they were working class girls. They were already seen as poor white trash by the authorities, that’s what they are to them. Scum, chavs, they belong to ‘troubled families’ and scroungers. The same mentality that hounds someone for daring to have a large TV whilst on the dole, it’s all linked. They were working class girls, the lowest of the low, shat on by society as well as being shat on at home. 

I’ve read the court reports and testimonies, I’m well aware what the abusers said to them. I still see the class element- they went for those girls in particular, they didn’t target all white girls, just the ones they knew are seen as bottom of the heap by everyone else. It’s easy to use the race card though, then we don’t have to confront our own rampant class prejudice towards working class children, the poor white trash everyone loves to hate.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> There are class issues at play, for sure.
> And comparisons could be made with upper class tory and other politicians raping children from care homes.
> The difference being, these grooming gangs appear to have been able to carry out such vile crimes under the knowledge of police and social services with impunity.
> 
> ...


You're a straight up racist


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> Agenda??
> 
> Do explain what you think that might be?


You're a bigot who wants to send people  born here 'home'


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> You're a straight up racist


With a £400k house, don't forget


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> I would agree. And my opinion remains unchanged - paedophiles need to be put to death.
> Perhaps not state sanctioned, because the state cannot be entrusted, but certainly if there were circumstances where parents of victims faced no charges for arranging or committing the murder of their child’s attacker - that would be something I would approve of.


And also signed up to some disturbing backwards ideology that's contradictory to your proffered 'progression'


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## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> And also signed up to some disturbing backwards ideology that's contradictory to your proffered 'progression'


Pk likes a good lynching


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> Of course I didn’t wish rape on a child, that’s fucking ridiculous. But Reece-Mogg is tory vermin and his views are as backward as those of the groomers IMO


And of yours,  with your belief in vigilantism and capital punishment for sexual abuse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> And of yours,  with your belief in vigilantism and capital punishment for sexual abuse.


Call it what it is, ou, support for lynching


----------



## bemused (Mar 21, 2018)

I see that Parliment has agreed to an inquiry into bullying in Parliment, but Lucy Allan still can't get an enquiry into the torture, rape and sale of children.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> I ordered a curry from my Pakistani brethren tonight. Very nice it was too.
> I very much doubt the grooming gangs were in any way connected to actual terror cells.
> 
> But in your rabid hysteria and desperate need to try and “trigger” me haha you reveal that you still likely drink too much but you did say this:
> ...


Their main reason is they want to get sex easily and don't care that they have to abuse a child to get it.


----------



## Dogsauce (Mar 21, 2018)

The targets were chosen because they could get away with it, that's the most obvious factor. The demographics of the abusers is also linked to that of those working in the night time economy, driving taxis or working in late night takeaways, and cultures/attitudes that can exist within those male-dominated industries. 

I also suspect a lot of those with some culpability in the social services sector for not acting aren't so much guilty of being 'soft' due to worries of racism but were more lazy/unmotivated in dealing with what would have been very difficult clients. There are a lot of very messed up kids in care (I know people who work with them) and it's extremely challenging at times and hard to gain trust and respect, such that some in the care system won't have done the job they were supposed to do in order to make their own lives easier. Needs to be better, but doesn't necessarily indicate they were following some left/liberal dictat about cultural sensitivities.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 21, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> The targets were chosen because they could get away with it, that's the most obvious factor. The demographics of the abusers is also linked to that of those working in the night time economy, driving taxis or working in late night takeaways, and cultures/attitudes that can exist within those male-dominated industries.



Do you consider that the ethnic background of the abusers is of any significance whatsoever?


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## dessiato (Mar 21, 2018)

Reading this thread has made the impossible happen. I agree with O U


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

dessiato said:


> Reading this thread has made the impossible happen. I agree with O U


 why bother putting it like that on an already fractious thread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

wr2 sexual jihad i would like to see pk or ElizabethofYork  - as proponents of this notion - answer why FORTY YEARS ago this would have been a thing, at a time when the uk welcomed 'saudi dissidents' and similar jihadis and indeed had entered into covenants of security with them. this sexual jihad of yours seems nothing more than sordid abuse which you would drape in the cloak of religion, with  - in at least pk's case - more than a smattering of what Orang Utan declares is racism, and i agree with ou. pk, your claim that you're looking for a counter-narrative with which to smite the far-right falls apart when you er rely on a far-right website to support your case  not to mention the numerous far-right tropes you include as your own in your analysis.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> why bother putting it like that on an already fractious thread?


It's not that difficult to agree with me. I don't exactly have niche views for this site. 
So he must be making that post just to have a dig. Classy


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> wr2 sexual jihad i would like to see pk or Elizabeth of york - as proponents of this notion - answer why FORTY YEARS ago this would have been a thing, at a time when the uk welcomed 'saudi dissidents' and similar jihadis and indeed had entered into covenants of security with them. this sexual jihad of yours seems nothing more than simple sordid abuse which you would drape in the cloak of religion.


Well put, the cloak of religion is exactly what the abusers and their alt right echoes on here share.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

Orang Utan said:


> It's not that difficult to agree with me. I don't exactly have niche views for this site.
> So he must be making that post just to have a dig. Classy


i'm grateful for your calling it the way it is on this thread, hence my likes.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 21, 2018)

The new age conspiracy racist conveniently missed an opportunity to discuss his sexual jihaad theory when he ordered his curry.What a bottler.Best keep these things on the internet.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

pk said:


> Child rape? Really?
> 
> I think you’re wilfully trying to make light of all this Wilf.


 What I'm making light of is your reductionism, 'it's their culture to do this' style argument.  Thus the comparison.  But given that white men are marginally more noncey than Asians, would you like to also build an a cultural argument about _that_?



> “Oh don’t be so silly, it’s not muslims raping children for quasi-religious reasons!”
> 
> Really. Ask a British muslim what they think.
> Read up on how rape is endemic in Pakistan and especially of children.
> ...



You seem to forget that these men are not simply products of Pakistan, they are products of British culture as well.  Your agenda? Well, fuck knows, but part of it seems to be a desire to say all British Muslims are inherently noncey.


----------



## rekil (Mar 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. You've been here long enough I thought you'd know not to link to right wing websites, the my new book authored with Tommy Robinson ought to give the game away even to someone like you.


The person that pk endorsed is on gab because he was banned from twitter. Gab being the twitter for the far right, edgelords, loons etc. I had a look at his account and even if he didn't have such a close connection with Tommy Robinson, he doesn't strike me as being a particularly reliable source and just might have a somewhat unsavoury agenda. 



Spoiler


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Its not just anecdotal its batshit the enemy is within dont order a curry cos they are all financing terrorism they might be polite but secretly they are all supporting terrorism or are raping our women  conspiracy web crap.Even more bizarre when the person who says it allegedly  goes touring Islamic countries with his girlfriends/chicks Just as well an acid burnt out Peter Davison look a like is there to protect them.
> 
> Lets be clear , it is a fact that there  is an over representation of muslim men from the Indian subcontinent in the UK involved in organised sexual exploitation of white working class young girls. It is very hard to get away from this point and it doesn't do the victims any favours when people try and wriggle out of it.However what the Epsom Arsonist is suggesting is that the abuse of  white working class girls is an organised and concious action, a sexual jihaadi , by Islamacists in the UK. He believes that this is a second front;bombs, stabbings , cars being driven into innocent people and then the sanctioned rape of pre teens and teenagers, all in the name of Islam.
> What I'm surprised his alleged Muslim girlfriend/chick never let him in on the secret.Unless  of course,with hindsight,  she could have been part of the plan.


I think it's exactly as you put it (underlined bit), it's something that shouldn't be ignored.  I'm not joining pk's 'sexual jihad' theory in saying that has to be discussed and yes, certainly, you could almost see some proponents of top down multiculturalism flinching when this was raised as these scandals were initially publicised. As an aside, I think it's interesting how local authorities pretty much used this as an excuse - 'oh we couldn't really do anything as we'd be accused of racism'. I think that really was an excuse - they had a clear statutory duty and they failed large numbers of working class girls.

But when it gets round to _discussing_ the patterns in organised abuse, the leap to 'it's in their culture' is not only unhelpful, it actually closes off a materialist and realistic discussion. For me, the question to ask is _why are the minority of Asian/Muslim men who abuse more likely than the minority of white/European/Christian men who abuse to do it in groups? _And that takes you to the socio-economic conditions and segregation that developed over decades in (not only) northern towns.  A mixture of Labour housing policies and Tory parental choice, different labour markets and the rest. _It's that segregation that generates the collective bit of this_. Shared religious backgrounds might be part of the social glue within a group - shared backgrounds always are - but isn't the start of the process. It's about class, misogyny and local authorities that shared the very prejudices the abusers had towards their victims.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I think it's exactly as you put it (underlined bit), it's something that shouldn't be ignored.  I'm not joining pk's 'sexual jihad' theory in saying that has to be discussed and yes, certainly, you could almost see some proponents of top down multiculturalism flinching when this was raised as these scandals were initially publicised. As an aside, I think it's interesting how local authorities pretty much used this as an excuse - 'oh we couldn't really do anything as we'd be accused of racism'. I think that really was an excuse - they had a clear statutory duty and they failed large numbers of working class girls.
> 
> But when it gets round to _discussing_ the patterns in organised abuse, the leap to 'it's in their culture' is not only unhelpful, it actually closes off a materialist and realistic discussion. For me, the question to ask is _why are the minority of Asian/Muslim men who abuse more likely than the minority of white/European/Christian men who abuse to do it in groups? _And that takes you to the socio-economic conditions and segregation that developed over decades in (not only) northern towns.  A mixture of Labour housing policies and Tory parental choice, different labour markets and the rest. _It's that segregation that generates the collective bit of this_. Shared religious backgrounds might be part of the social glue within a group - shared backgrounds always are - but isn't the start of the process. It's about class, misogyny and local authorities that shared the very prejudices the abusers had towards their victims.


A quicker version, a question for pk - if there are such rapey tendencies within Pakistani Brits, why are white men still atop the table of offenders?


----------



## Combustible (Mar 21, 2018)

Dogsauce said:


> I also suspect a lot of those with some culpability in the social services sector for not acting aren't so much guilty of being 'soft' due to worries of racism but were more lazy/unmotivated in dealing with what would have been very difficult clients



I'm not sure you can entirely separate that aspect from concerns about community relations. The framing of the police and social services behaviour as being simply because of fear of being seen as racist definitely seems to be a right wing distortion, but there is no doubt that for the police community relations via  community leaders is very important. And they may well not have wanted to jeopardize that relationship for the sake of a bunch of girls they had dismissed as chavs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> The new age conspiracy racist conveniently missed an opportunity to discuss his sexual jihaad theory when he ordered his curry.What a bottler.Best keep these things on the internet.


too busy calculating the daily appreciation on his house no doubt


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> A quicker version, a question for pk - if there are such rapey tendencies within Pakistani Brits, why are white men still atop the table of offenders?


but answer came there none


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Its not just anecdotal its batshit the enemy is within dont order a curry cos they are all financing terrorism they might be polite but secretly they are all supporting terrorism or are raping our women  conspiracy web crap.Even more bizarre when the person who says it allegedly  goes touring Islamic countries with his girlfriends/chicks Just as well an acid burnt out Peter Davison look a like is there to protect them.
> 
> Lets be clear , it is a fact that there  is an over representation of muslim men from the Indian subcontinent in the UK involved in organised sexual exploitation of white working class young girls. It is very hard to get away from this point and it doesn't do the victims any favours when people try and wriggle out of it.However what the Epsom Arsonist is suggesting is that the abuse of  white working class girls is an organised and concious action, a sexual jihaadi , by Islamacists in the UK. He believes that this is a second front;bombs, stabbings , cars being driven into innocent people and then the sanctioned rape of pre teens and teenagers, all in the name of Islam.
> What I'm surprised his alleged Muslim girlfriend/chick never let him in on the secret.Unless  of course,with hindsight,  she could have been part of the plan.



In the current scandal of police and LA inaction, the gangs are British Muslims.  Why so many crimes? Because of police and LA inaction.  The perpetrators found a criminal methodology and were allowed to exploit it entirely unchecked for decades.  With no shortage of vulnerable girls, and no shortage of revolting punters, the phenomenon grew and grew.  

But that's a perfect storm.  All the factors in this case have occurred in all cultures of British society.  In London, we have an urgent problem with Child Sexual Exploitation with street-Level drug gangs.  Vulnerable girls are forced to travel into the suburbs and further to deliver packages to regional dealers.  While there, they are repeatedly raped as part of the business relationship between the gangs.   They are accompanied by muscle and threatened with violence to their families.  

These perpetrators are not, by and large, British Asian or Muslim.  The girls are by no means predominantly white.  What you have is no shortage of vulnerable girls, and no shortage of scumbag punters.  But unlike Rotherham etc, the police are interested because both gang violence and drug dealing are issues they are motivated to give a shit about.  If it was just the exploited girls... I doubt anyone would care.  

Further afield you have gangs trafficking young female refugees.  Here, the victims are often Asian/Middle Eastern, and the scumbags hail from all backgrounds.  The difference is that the most vulnerable girls are often Muslim.  


Child sexual exploitation isn't a political or religious strategy.  If it were, they'd target the daughters of the empowered classes.  CSE happens because of patriarchy.  And patriarchy is a long way from being an exclusively, or even predominantly Muslim problem.  


Yes there's a whole load of patriarchal shit in the Quran. But these men are far from Islamist extremists.  The fact that they're out boozing and having non-consensual sex with women outside of their marriages is a pretty strong clue.  

They're just men, doing what a decent proportion of men have always done if they thought they could get away with it.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 21, 2018)

How utterly depressing.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> In the current scandal of police and LA inaction, the gangs are British Muslims.  Why so many crimes? Because of police and LA inaction.  The perpetrators found a criminal methodology and were allowed to exploit it entirely unchecked for decades.  With no shortage of vulnerable girls, and no shortage of revolting punters, the phenomenon grew and grew.
> 
> But that's a perfect storm.  All the factors in this case have occurred in all cultures of British society.  In London, we have an urgent problem with Child Sexual Exploitation with street-Level drug gangs.  Vulnerable girls are forced to travel into the suburbs and further to deliver packages to regional dealers.  While there, they are repeatedly raped as part of the business relationship between the gangs.   They are accompanied by muscle and threatened with violence to their families.
> 
> ...


No one is 'just men' - there are men socialised into and acting out particular norms/expectations in specific determined situations. The latter part is key here - to suggest 'just men' is to ignore that. The same way this alt-right clown says 'just muslims'.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> They're just men, doing what a decent proportion of men have always done if they thought they could get away with it.


That's some generalisation!
You must know some really fucked up men. I don't know any man who would rape somebody if they thought they could get away with it, and I know a lot of men.


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## likesfish (Mar 21, 2018)

no sorry I was a drunken part of the scum of the earth but rape and organising gang rape wasn't part of being an average night out drunken fights and stupidity yes rape no.


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

Saul Goodman said:


> That's some generalisation!
> You must know some really fucked up men. I don't know any man who would rape somebody if they thought they could get away with it, and I know a lot of men.


Yeah.  You do.  You think most rapists and similar go through life like Jimmy Saville with a big "weirdo" sign over their heads?  Rapists are people's mates and brothers and colleagues.  People who come across as decent blokes who would never do that.  

How do people think it works.  Near enough every woman has experienced sexual harassment, assault or violence multiple times.  Even allowing for serial offenders, what proportion of men do you think are involved? Rape is rarer, but not vanishingly so.  Neither, depressingly, is CSE.


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> No one is 'just men' - there are men socialised into and acting out particular norms/expectations in specific determined situations. The latter part is key here - to suggest 'just men' is to ignore that. The same way this alt-right clown says 'just muslims'.


They are men acting within the patriarchy.  This behaviour is a norm/expectation among some groups of men throughout the globe and across history.  Because of patriarchy.  

The common factor in sexual exploitation isn't religion, or ethnicity, or location - it's that the exploiters are near universally men operating within patriarchal society.  That is not irrelevant.


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## TruXta (Mar 21, 2018)

#notallmen


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## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

likesfish said:


> no sorry I was a drunken part of the scum of the earth but rape and organising gang rape wasn't part of being an average night out drunken fights and stupidity yes rape no.



No.  because you were part of the majority who operate differently.  But a proportion of men do these things, and they always have.


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

TruXta said:


> #notallmen


Thanks.


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## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> They are men acting within the patriarchy.  This behaviour is a norm/expectation among some groups of men throughout the globe and across history.  Because of patriarchy.
> 
> The common factor in sexual exploitation isn't religion, or ethnicity, or location - it's that the exploiters are near universally men operating within patriarchal society.  That is not irrelevant.


There is a history to patriarchy - an identification of interests and possible power relations and then a  consolidation of them into organisation and institutions and behaviours over time. To say 'just men' destroys this history, in fact destroys all critical understanding of these processes. It is the exact mirror of pk's _just muslims._


----------



## TruXta (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> No.  because you were part of the majority who operate differently.  But a proportion of men do these things, and they always have.


And more to the point  a fair amount of men who are not sexually violent are willing to overlook it.


----------



## JimW (Mar 21, 2018)

Always struck me that the relevant part of the profile of these gangs was those things that enabled the way they operated as a group - night-time economy work's been mentioned and I suspect there's ways the surviving kinship ties in second and third generation operated that enabled and encouraged the gang behaviour, i.e. who they were didn't make them do it it just shaped the particular way they offended.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> They are men acting within the patriarchy.  This behaviour is a norm/expectation among some groups of men throughout the globe and across history.  Because of patriarchy.
> 
> The common factor in sexual exploitation isn't religion, or ethnicity, or location - it's that the exploiters are near universally men operating within patriarchal society.  That is not irrelevant.


Who said  that it was irrelevant? One way to reduce this fact down to irrelevance -  to write off the ways in which this happens and why -  is to say  just men.


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## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> There is a history to patriarchy - an identificationof interests and possible power relations and then a  consolidation of them into organisation and institutions and behaviours over time. To say 'just men' destroys this history, in fact destroys all critical understanding of these processes. It is the exact mirror of pk's _just muslims._


It seems to me that you're splitting hairs.  I'm not trying to say there is something biological or fundamental within male humans that makes them do this.  But the patriarchy is all we have. All men are subject to it, in varying traditions.  It transcends religions and cultures and politics.  It is inescapable at this point, and for the men who are alive today.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> It seems to me that you're splitting hairs.  I'm not trying to say there is something biological or fundamental within male humans that makes them do this.  But the patriarchy is all we have. All men are subject to it, in varying traditions.  It transcends religions and cultures and politics.  It is inescapable at this point, and for the men who are alive today.


The notion of people acting in ways which might prefigure a better future society out the window then, being as we're all fucked up by the patriarchy


----------



## TruXta (Mar 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> The notion of people acting in ways which might prefigure a better future society out the window then, being as we're all fucked up by the patriarchy


You could say that about a class analysis as well, yet I don't see people saying fuck it capitalism is here to stay so we might as well accept it.


----------



## campanula (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> It transcends religions and cultures and politics.  It is inescapable at this point, and for the men who are alive today.



I think patriarchy embodies culture, religion, politics... surely it is the visible symptom of an imbalance of power and is enacted entirely within the paradigms of this particular social moment...and as such, is amenable to change.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

TruXta said:


> You could say that about a class analysis as well, yet I don't see people saying fuck it capitalism is here to stay so we might as well accept it.


Good


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

campanula said:


> I think patriarchy embodies culture, religion, politics... surely it is the visible symptom of an imbalance of power and is enacted entirely within the paradigms of this particular social moment...and as such, is amenable to change.


Yeh, I was looking for this recognition of mutability, degree and possibility of change in spanglechick's posts: without success


----------



## TruXta (Mar 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, I was looking for this recognition of mutability, degree and possibility of change in spanglechick's posts: without success


Only because you're making a very uncharitable interpretation. Inescapable doesn't have to mean that it determines everything men do, it can simply mean that it's an inescapable frame of reference, amongst other things.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 21, 2018)

But this _is_ the society that we live in, and it is _not_ possible to escape it without entirely leaving it, which is effectively impossible. People _do_ say the exact same thing about capitalism without implying that it’s the only possible state of affairs and can’t possibly be changed.


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## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

If i said "all men are potential rapists" I'd understand the outcry.  I didn't.  I'm saying all men live within the patriarchy (which I didn't realise needed saying) and a fair proportion of men within patriarchy have always done this stuff.


----------



## campanula (Mar 21, 2018)

Well, we have brothers, sons, fathers, friends... not inclined to give up as though all is fixed, frozen and determined forever. Not really certain that  patriarchal power has the same potency it held a few decades ago...although power wears many disguises.

I confess to using this term ('the patriarchy') a bit loosely and even flippantly cos I am hopelessly lost and confused regarding nuances of 21st century life though.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> But this _is_ the society that we live in, and it is _not_ possible to escape it without entirely leaving it, which is effectively impossible. People _do_ say the exact same thing about capitalism without implying that it’s the only possible state of affairs and can’t possibly be changed.


I've seen people suggest a path into this society to understand how it works in order to get beyond it  - that's not what 'just men' does. It, in fact, does the opposite of that. I've never seen anyone engaged in this endeavour offer it's _just capitalism._ I've seen people attacked by those engaged in that for ahistorical essentalism though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

TruXta said:


> Only because you're making a very uncharitable interpretation. Inescapable doesn't have to mean that it determines everything men do, it can simply mean that it's an inescapable frame of reference, amongst other things.


Where are women in spanglechick's scheme? It's not like this is all about men, it's not like the patriarchy is the same in every place or time, or that women play no part in resisting or perpetuating the system. Things are, as I see it, more complex than spanglechick says


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 21, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Where are women in spanglechick's scheme? It's not like this is all about men, it's not like the patriarchy is the same in every place or time, or that women play no part in resisting or perpetuating the system. Things are, as I see it, more complex than spanglechick says


Women play a huge part in sustaining the patriarchy.  

But they overwhelmingly don't feature in the category "people who rape children", so I didn't say "it's just people".  

The biggest unifying factor in child rapists is their gender, and not their religion or ethnicity.  On a thread where people were trying to make it about religion and ethnicity, I used the phrase "it's just men" as part of a long, considered post to point out that the religion/ethnicity aspect is something of a sideshow and instead we should be looking a the fact that these crimes are almost always carried out by men.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 21, 2018)

Look at what happens to women during wars.. how many women were and are raped during war times by men who then return to their families afterwards and lived their lives as regular citizens...?
Rape is and was a regular occurrnce in war zones.
Men don't always broadcast how they treat women ...the good they do and / or the bad...
I'm not dissing all men...but rape happens much more often to women and young girls and boys than it does to men... and the vast majority of rapes are committed by men.
spanglechick has a point. 




"Rape Crisis England & Wales headline statistics 2016-17:

   " Rape Crisis Centres across our network responded to their highest ever number of helpline calls during the year - 202,666 in total, or nearly 4,000 a week.
	Rape Crisis specialist services were accessed by 67,059 individuals, an increase of 16% from 2015-16.
	Rape Crisis Centres provided in excess of 450,000 sessions of specialist support, including advocacy, emotional support and counselling, an increase of 29% since 2015-16.   
	Three-quarters of all adult service users contacted Rape Crisis Centres about sexual violence that took place at least 12 months earlier; 42% were adult survivors of child sexual abuse.
	The largest group that contact Rape Crisis Centres, now over half of service users (51%), is those who prefer to self-refer. This pattern has remained consistent over the past six years and continues to demonstrate the necessity for funded independent services.
	93 per cent of service users were female.
	Where age is known, 2,651 were aged 15 or under, an increase of 55% on last year; those aged under 25 represented 36% of service users. Over 30 times more children reported multiple assaults than last year - 904 compared with 29 in 2015-16.
	Where ethnicity is known, 20% of service users identified as Black or Minority Ethnic.
	25% of all service users identified as Disabled.
	The Rape Crisis England & Wales website received nearly 9 million hits during the year and an average of 32,765 unique visitors per month."

Rape statistics


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> Women play a huge part in sustaining the patriarchy.
> 
> But they overwhelmingly don't feature in the category "people who rape children", so I didn't say "it's just people".
> 
> The biggest unifying factor in child rapists is their gender, and not their religion or ethnicity.  On a thread where people were trying to make it about religion and ethnicity, I used the phrase "it's just men" as part of a long, considered post to point out that the religion/ethnicity aspect is something of a sideshow and instead we should be looking a the fact that these crimes are almost always carried out by men.


Yeh. I didn't take issue with your 2047 as you'll see if you look back


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> Women play a huge part in sustaining the patriarchy.
> 
> But they overwhelmingly don't feature in the category "people who rape children", so I didn't say "it's just people".
> 
> The biggest unifying factor in child rapists is their gender, and not their religion or ethnicity.  On a thread where people were trying to make it about religion and ethnicity, I used the phrase "it's just men" as part of a long, considered post to point out that the religion/ethnicity aspect is something of a sideshow and instead we should be looking a the fact that these crimes are almost always carried out by men.


You've used exactly the logic of the only person making it about 'ethnicity' though  - just with a different villain. That's not the way to challenge people like him. And that's why i'm not splitting hairs but am, in  fact, highlighting a fundamental difference in politics.


----------



## bemused (Mar 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> As an aside, I think it's interesting how local authorities pretty much used this as an excuse - 'oh we couldn't really do anything as we'd be accused of racism'. I think that really was an excuse - they had a clear statutory duty and they failed large numbers of working class girls.



It is clear that authorities wrap themselves around an axle rather than face up to the reality that a specific community was over-represented in the proportion of men committing these crimes. It leads them to not only let down hundreds of victims but also in some cases suggest they brought it on themselves. A consequence of facing this problem head-on may be that racist halfwits exploit these poor womens' cases but that's a relatively small price to pay to prevent this happening again.


----------



## campanula (Mar 21, 2018)

I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

campanula said:


> I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.


very much so


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

campanula said:


> I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.


Bingo


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Mar 21, 2018)

campanula said:


> I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to *exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. *Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.



It's called fear


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> It's called fear


Not sure that's more forensic, pt


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 21, 2018)

PippinTook said:


> It's called fear


The idea that these girls were abused - in the same way the boys in care homes in north wales, the midlands and wider afield - because of some generic post-hoc response on the part of others is horrifying. In each and every case the shared theme is lack of social power and ability to be taken seriously by a system designed around establishing and then reproducing another class' social power. wtf has fear to do with this?


I don't think you fully appreciated campanula's clever extension of the use of 'just' either.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 21, 2018)

this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.
 white male nonces offend in different ways


----------



## campanula (Mar 21, 2018)

likesfish said:


> this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.



Well yes, in this case, the perpetrators were Asian males...which is both obvious and a bit meaningless because they were particular Asian men, in a very specific time and place, (situated within a culture which is largely opaque to me)  on course for a collision with a segment of children who were basically discarded, almost invisible...how the fuck have we got to this? Layers and layers of culpability. Accountability at the level of individuals...or an accounting of (mis)managed, systemic fail, I don't mind,  onwards and upwards...but I do care that an ongoing dialogue is still being had.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2018)

likesfish said:


> this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.
> white male nonces offend in different ways


Pakistanis make up something like 6% of Asians. What's your point?


----------



## Wilf (Mar 21, 2018)

likesfish said:


> this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.
> white male nonces offend in different ways


Well campanula has answered this better than I can, but I'll still wade in: so, overall a score draw between ethnic groups in terms of _overall_ nonceyness*, but clear patterns with regard to _collective_ rapists. One of those complex layers that Campanula spoke about is the economy and occupational segregation - for example the staggering figure that 1/4 of all British Pakistani men work primarily as taxi drivers, along with generally lower rates of employment for some Muslim women (but also significant success in management posts).
Key areas: Employment | Equality and Human Rights Commission
 Haven't typed that very clearly, but I'm getting at the facts of significant polarisation _within_ Asian/Pakistani/Muslim communities - and _between_ those groups and other groups in UK society. When you factor in the housing segregation allowed by largely Labour authorities, school segregation, you see significant areas of segregation and different experiences _within_ what is in many ways a more tolerant integrated society.  When you factor in lots of other layers you begin to get to where we are today - but also to why it's pointless to make generalisations about what any particular group are 'like'. 

* For any passing pks, yes, that is me being flippant about a serious subject.


----------



## TruXta (Mar 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> it's pointless to make generalisations about what any particular group are 'like'.


All cops are still bastards.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 21, 2018)

TruXta said:


> All cops are still bastards.


If it wasnt for the bastard cops the EDL would have run riot in Manchester when they were at their peak


----------



## TruXta (Mar 21, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> If it wasnt for the bastard cops the EDL would have run riot in Manchester when they were at their peak


Even bastards can be useful at times.


----------



## Wilf (Mar 22, 2018)

TruXta said:


> All cops are still bastards.


That's no generalisation - universal truth.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2018)

campanula said:


> Well yes, in this case, the perpetrators were Asian males....




along with THE MAJORITY OF THESE TYPE OF OFFENCES, 75% of gang grooming are Asian


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> If it wasnt for the bastard cops the EDL would have run riot in Manchester when they were at their peak


Bastard huns ran riot in manchester


----------



## pk (Mar 23, 2018)

I came here to spout some reasonably offensive shit and get some balls rolling.

It was always my role to rile.

I selfishly need to get some shit straight in my own head and occasionally I’ll come here and cunt everyone off because I am angry and frustrated, and scared, just like everyone.

If I shared some Shitler-freak right wing nutjob leak earlier then upon my own head be it. I was flinging incoherent rage, it’s clearly the modus operandi I prefer. ?? 

I am not a racist. I love the minutae of everything, and clearly my motivations here are not what you think.

I need to provoke an internal monologue by dropping F-bombs here, sometimes.

I know I push it too far. That’s the point.

But this is still a good and essential conversation. I’ll fuck off now for a few days.

See you in a bit.

Please continue.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2018)

pk said:


> I came here to spout some reasonably offensive shit and get some balls rolling.
> 
> It was always my role to rile.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is your role to rile. But if you didn't want to look like someone a pint short of a gallon maybe you'd post something that didn't make you look like a fool. Your posts all make you look a right wing twat. Not just this time. Not just last time. Every fucking time. A man who measures his success by his house value and who bolsters his claims from evidence supplied by people he affects to oppose and does all this to stir up his internal monologue? Such a man might most kindly be described as a wanker with no redeeming qualities


----------



## pk (Mar 26, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> No one is 'just men' - there are men socialised into and acting out particular norms/expectations in specific determined situations. The latter part is key here - to suggest 'just men' is to ignore that. The same way this alt-right clown says 'just muslims'.



I’m not “alt-right” you idiot child.

How was Birmingham? I was in Paris.

You’re as bad as the fuckers you fight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2018)

pk said:


> I’m not “alt-right” you idiot child.
> 
> How was Birmingham? I was in Paris.
> 
> You’re as bad as the fuckers you fight.


we only have to put up with you on an irregular basis...


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 26, 2018)

Grooming Gangs: Focus on protecting children, not Far Right agendas.

This from AFN manages to combine some good points (similar to those raised by people here) with whataboutery.

(Also a quick thank you from me to Wilf and The39thStep for some excellent contributions to this thread)


----------



## Thimble Queen (Mar 26, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Grooming Gangs: Focus on protecting children, not Far Right agendas.
> 
> This from AFN manages to combine some good points (similar to those raised by people here) with whataboutery.



That's a really good piece. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## justin credible (Mar 26, 2018)

I have not read the thread and have no idea whether anyone has already posted this link, but I think it is helpful in understanding what is and has been happening in some parts of the UK and how it can be addressed 

Battling a new brand of pimp


----------



## existentialist (Mar 28, 2018)

pk said:


> I would agree. And my opinion remains unchanged - paedophiles need to be put to death.
> Perhaps not state sanctioned, because the state cannot be entrusted, but certainly if there were circumstances where parents of victims faced no charges for arranging or committing the murder of their child’s attacker - that would be something I would approve of.


Slightly OT, I know, but if I had thought that my abusers would have faced the death penalty, I would not have gone to the police, even 40 years late. As it is, one did die of heart failure 3 days before he was due to be charged, probably because of the prospect of having to face his victim in court, but I would not have wished that on him. These were both prolific offenders, and I recognise that their other victims' views may well differ from mine, though


----------



## pk (Apr 1, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> The idea that these girls were abused - in the same way the boys in care homes in north wales, the midlands and wider afield - because of some generic post-hoc response on the part of others is horrifying. In each and every case the shared theme is lack of social power and ability to be taken seriously by a system designed around establishing and then reproducing another class' social power. wtf has fear to do with this?
> 
> 
> I don't think you fully appreciated campanula's clever extension of the use of 'just' either.



Fear has EVERYTHING to do with this.

I’m not here to shit on this thread.

I am liking Spanglechick and Truxta bringing forth the wisdom.

LOL at the idea of me being anything but devoted to breaking down bullshit barriers.

I have very little to be ashamed of, either on this website or in my life. Lots of meta-politics occurred here on deeply personal levels a decade ago, and I’m not particularly proud of my behaviour towards ostensibly decent folk. But there it is.

Happy to drag important political/social matters back to common denominators because I just want easy answers because I’m lazy, but I do need help sometimes in certain issues and that’s why I’m back here.

I respect the opinions put forth here by all and sundry, and if I need to stir up the shit a little bit then forgive me, it’s not a personal attack. I just need a decent framework within which to continue my trains of thought.

It is utterly selfish and a bit crap, but it works for me and I thank you all for providing the perspective I need..


----------



## pk (Apr 1, 2018)

justin credible said:


> I have not read the thread and have no idea whether anyone has already posted this link, but I think it is helpful in understanding what is and has been happening in some parts of the UK and how it can be addressed



I have not yet clicked your link but thank heavens for the teachable moment.

I might merely be a sexy man but I have always been a feminist, and a gentleman to the ladies.

This shit needs discussing. If I have to boot the nest of hornets to make that happen, then pass me the gaffa tape and the binbags.


----------



## pk (Apr 1, 2018)




----------



## pk (Apr 1, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Slightly OT, I know, but if I had thought that my abusers would have faced the death penalty, I would not have gone to the police, even 40 years late. As it is, one did die of heart failure 3 days before he was due to be charged, probably because of the prospect of having to face his victim in court, but I would not have wished that on him. These were both prolific offenders, and I recognise that their other victims' views may well differ from mine, though



I can’t really say much to this, other than give all my hugs for the ordeal you went through.

All I know is my own reactionary mind.

I hope the simplistic nature of my kneejerk bullshit can be seen for what it is.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 1, 2018)

Jesus Christ, not every post has to be an acceptance speech.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 1, 2018)

pk said:


> Fear has EVERYTHING to do with this.
> 
> I’m not here to shit on this thread.
> 
> ...


----------



## Saul Goodman (Apr 1, 2018)

pk said:


> View attachment 131559


I had to check the time to make sure you were pissed when you posted that.

Carry on.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Apr 1, 2018)

R u ok, hun.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 1, 2018)

pk said:


> This shit needs discussing. If I have to boot the nest of hornets to make that happen, then pass me the gaffa tape and the binbags.


You in MI6 Mr Bagman?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 12, 2018)

I'll just park this here (Rochdale ex council chief open to prosecution for lying to the inquiry).  I knew the bloke many moons ago, their opinion of him as “bullish, self-opinionated and unyielding” is about right.
Resigned Rochdale council leader 'lied to child abuse inquiry'


----------



## existentialist (Apr 15, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I'll just park this here (Rochdale ex council chief open to prosecution for lying to the inquiry).  I knew the bloke many moons ago, their opinion of him as “bullish, self-opinionated and unyielding” is about right.
> Resigned Rochdale council leader 'lied to child abuse inquiry'


I hope he does get done for perjury. It's the wilful arse-covering and lying about what went on which creates the very environment in which child sex abusers can operate with relative impunity. He, and people like him, are as much a part of the problem as the abusers themselves, IMO.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I hope he does get done for perjury. It's the wilful arse-covering and lying about what went on which creates the very environment in which child sex abusers can operate with relative impunity. He, and people like him, are as much a part of the problem as the abusers themselves, IMO.


When I knew he was a classic bully, a combination of being superficially personable whilst sneery, childish and politically sectarian. Started very young as a councillor from memory. I don't know how much it helps victims to see people like him get (a degree of) comeuppance. At the very least he will have seen the issue looming up in the rear mirror to the point where jail isn't out the of the question (though unlikely I'd have thought).  He clearly didn't give a shit about the issue when it first crossed his desk, through to a few nagging doubts as to where it would lead when the Knowl view abuse became common knowledge - right through to his disgrace today. Regardless of my views about farnell, I really hope he gets prosecuted for the reasons you say.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

New article by Lisa McKenzie where she says difficult discussions need to take place.
I don’t agree with all of her analysis especially where she appeared to place the perps and victims on the same class pegging despite girls in care (effectively homeless) being moved around locations to be abused (property owners) so she falls into the trap that she’s (rightfully) attempting to criticise.

https://lisamckenzie1968.wixsite.com/website/blog/a-difficult-discussion


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

The leftist habit of making all brown people working class regardless of social standing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The leftist habit of making all brown people working class regardless of social standing.



I'm pretty sure not all leftists are White and nor do we characterise all brown people as working class either. 

Perhaps that's a mistake Lisa has made that you'd do better not to generalise about.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> I'm pretty sure not all leftists are White and nor do we characterise all brown people as working class either.
> 
> Perhaps that's a mistake Lisa has made that you'd do better not to generalise about.



Fair point. The mindset does need tackling though.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fair point. The mindset does need tackling though.



Lisa has a very open profile on FB and twitter...why not tackle it with her?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> Lisa has a very open profile on FB and twitter...why not tackle it with her?



I have a lot of respect for LM so I don’t feel a need to criticise her directly. Plus her positions are better than most of the left; I was just pointing out one aspect of that analysis. Obviously it’s getting up your nose it being discussed here but surely that’s all the more reason for it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Obviously it’s getting up your nose it being discussed here but surely that’s all the more reason for it?



More reason to discuss it because it gets up my nose? Pathetic. You don't challenge LM because you don't dare do it. You haven't got the bottle.

You are a real try hard.   You know full well why I responded to your post. I am pretty sick of reading you post crap like above where you position 'leftists' as White. It's like when you imply all WC people are White in your posts. You got pissed off with me challenging that as well recently.

For someone who goes around acting like the IDpoliticker witch finder general you are seriously obsessed by race/ethnicity and it drips through just about everything you post lately even when you are posting about class,. The disturbing thing is that you can't seem to see it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

Thanks for the invective. 
What normally happens in politics is if you disagree with a position you formulate an argument against it and put it up in print. 
You’re basically asking me to do some daft twitter or FB attacks against LM like children do.
I was simply discussing it here because this is a discussion board.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Thanks for the invective.
> What normally happens in politics is if you disagree with a position you formulate an argument against it and put it up in print.
> You’re basically asking me to do some daft twitter or FB attacks against LM like children do.
> I was simply discussing it here because this is a discussion board.



I haven't suggested you attack anyone so that's a crock of shit.

You posted that 'it' needs tackling, 'it' is the thing that you feel LM has done in that piece, having that conversation with her is easy as I pointed out. She pretty much starts discussions about things she written or things that are going on on her FB all the time...it's no biggy to comment is my point. 

...and if you know what normally happens in politics you could perhaps stop getting so upset when the poor generalisations and associations of your own are pointed out to you given that you stomp about here giving it the  lefty big bollocks and accuse pretty much everyone else bar the urban vanguard of doing it all wrong.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

Do you have any points to make regarding the points I criticised LM for? Or just general attacks on me?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

Didn’t think so.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I have a lot of respect for LM so I don’t feel a need to criticise her directly.



So why post this up here and only highlight the part you disagree with?

ETA: a) given the subject matter of the thread and b) given Lisa’s consistent attempt to give voice to pro working class politics its a really really strange decision


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> So why post this up here and only highlight the part you disagree with?
> 
> ETA: a) given the subject matter of the thread and b) given Lisa’s consistent attempt to give voice to pro working class politics its a really really strange decision



Because I have discussed politics on this forum for twenty years yet I haven’t once targeted someone on Social media.
A/B) are you really suggesting LM shouldn’t be criticised because she’s a limited outspoken wc supporter?
Blimey.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 1, 2018)

If you think it should be on another thread I don’t mind moving it. Otherwise I don’t know what you think.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 1, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because I have discussed politics on this forum for twenty years yet I haven’t once targeted someone on Social media.
> A/B) are you really suggesting LM shouldn’t be criticised because she’s a limited outspoken wc supporter?
> Blimey.



Yes. That’s precisely what I’m arguing. She is an all too rare voice in academia promoting pro working class politics. She has spoke up consistently for the victims of the rape gangs. She has regularly fronted up liberal squeamish relativism.

She has taken a phenomenal amount of abuse as a result.

There are many things that should be highlighted about the systematic rape of children, this week in particular. The fact therefore that you’ve chosen to have a pop at LM on this is frankly bizarre.

Equally bizarre is the point you take issue with. If your point is that there is a class issue at work within Asian rape crews you really are wide of the mark


----------



## Saul Goodman (Nov 2, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> I'm pretty sure not all leftists are White and nor do we characterise all brown people as working class either.
> 
> Perhaps that's a mistake Lisa has made that you'd do better not to generalise about.


Not all working class people?


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Thanks for the invective.
> What normally happens in politics is if you disagree with a position you formulate an argument against it and put it up in print.
> You’re basically asking me to do some daft twitter or FB attacks against LM like children do.
> I was simply discussing it here because this is a discussion board.


You don't have to go to Twitter or FB. The blog has a chat function where you can discuss the points she raised. Nor is a disagreement necessarily an attack.

However, I'd suggest you're on dodgy ground if you think owning (or renting) property means they're not working class.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I have a lot of respect for LM so I don’t feel a need to criticise her directly. Plus her positions are better than most of the left; I was just pointing out one aspect of that analysis. Obviously it’s getting up your nose it being discussed here but surely that’s all the more reason for it?


Respect being not criticising her directly and engaging, but having a pop at her here?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

19force8 said:


> However, I'd suggest you're on dodgy ground if you think owning (or renting) property means they're not working class.



All homeowners are middle class


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> All homeowners are middle class



I said ‘properties’ meaning landlordism or places above businesses. I never mentioned ‘home owners’.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Plus pimping women out (and whatever other criminality they got up to) hardly makes them salt of the earth steel workers, does it?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Nov 2, 2018)

Is there such a thing as the Criminal Class nowadays?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Is there such a thing as the Criminal Class nowadays?


yes, you'll find them listed in who's who


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Is there such a thing as the Criminal Class nowadays?



If you exploit labour (either legally or illegally) for profit then you’re not working class. Perhaps they were hand to mouth pimps and didn’t invest in property or other businesses?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Equally bizarre is the point you take issue with. If your point is that there is a class issue at work within Asian rape crews you really are wide of the mark



They’re literally up there with the worst kind of capitalists. If you think that makes them part of our class then I suggest it’s you who is side of the mark.


----------



## heebyjeeby (Nov 2, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, you'll find them listed in who's who


people you went to school with? Apparently a very posh school in North London on a hill.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re literally up there with the worst kind of capitalists. If you think that makes them part of our class then I suggest it’s you who is side of the mark.


In the UK the vast majority of paedophiles, rapists, etc are working class. 

Because the vast majority of people are working class. 

So yes, (most of) these men are/were part of our class.

Why would you deny that? 

You don't give Asians the right to deny these men are Asian do you? 

No, you say that this is an issue we have to face up to if we're going to win over people influenced by fascists.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

19force8 said:


> In the UK the vast majority of paedophiles, rapists, etc are working class.
> 
> Because the vast majority of people are working class.
> 
> ...



I thought there was forced prostitution involved, presumably for money?
Not proles, sorry.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re literally up there with the worst kind of capitalists. If you think that makes them part of our class then I suggest it’s you who is side of the mark.



You are all over the place on this. These rape gangs are not some group of capitalist elites. If you were arguing that they represent a lumpen cancer within working class communities then you'd be on firmer ground.

You've ignored everything Lisa has to say about power, about culture, and yes about race.

The exact quote you've seized on is this "_both perpetrator and victim are working class and class inequality, class prejudice and class stigma have been used in allowing this national shame to take place in that the children, the victims, were seen as having little or no value. I have written about the the way white working class women are demonised when they have relationships with men that are not white. The assumption that they are slags, prostitutes and incorrigible, and this is what is at the root of the way men of Pakistani heritage have been allowed to commit these acts. While at the same time denying the humanity of these working class girls'.	  _

What precisely is your problem with this argument? These men knew, lived among and were even 'in relationships' with these girls. Trying to paint them as outsiders takes us nowhere.


----------



## andysays (Nov 2, 2018)

So the latest angle is 'bloody Muslims, coming over here and becoming middle class' is it?

Amazing that it's taken you four years to think this one up Magnus McGinty. Did you come up with it all by yourself or did you have some help along the way?


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought there was forced prostitution involved, presumably for money?
> Not proles, sorry.


Definitely a river in Egypt.


----------



## editor (Nov 2, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> people you went to school with? Apparently a very posh school in North London on a hill.


Please explain why you're bringing this up and how you would know which school the poster attended.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> You are all over the place on this. These rape gangs are not some group of capitalist elites. If you were arguing that they represent a lumpen cancer within working class communities then you'd be on firmer ground.
> 
> You've ignored everything Lisa has to say about power, about culture, and yes about race.
> 
> ...



How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.



Paedos often use money, drink, food, ‘Love’ to abuse children. It doesn’t follow they are froma different class. Would you say the Asian taxi driver paedos were on ‘a different class footing’ because they owned a car and the victims didn’t?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.


i think you may be mistaking a power differential for a class differential.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Paedos often use money, drink, food, ‘Love’ to abuse children. It doesn’t follow they are froma different class. Would you say the Asian taxi driver paedos were on ‘a different class footing’ because they owned a car and the victims didn’t?



Are Landlords working class then? 
I think I’d rather suffer being exploited through rent rather than locked in said room to be sold for sex.


----------



## likesfish (Nov 2, 2018)

Their was an Asian man on the news saying this wasn't about race but the Asian community needed to have a long hard look at itself because people knew this was going on and its not a one off.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you may be mistaking a power differential for a class differential.



Nope


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are Landlords working class then?
> I think I’d rather suffer being exploited through rent rather than locked in said room to be sold for sex.


Sorry, did I miss something here? I got the impression they were mostly poor immigrants working in the night economy because it was one step up from working minimum wage in a warehouse. Now you're telling me they're all landlords. Could you provide some evidence please.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

likesfish said:


> Their was an Asian man on the news saying this wasn't about race but the Asian community needed to have a long hard look at itself because people knew this was going on and its not a one off.


I think we all have to take a long hard look at ourselves, because we all know this is going on. It's not a one off it's been a feature of British society for centuries.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Sorry, did I miss something here? I got the impression they were mostly poor immigrants working in the night economy because it was one step up from working minimum wage in a warehouse. Now you're telling me they're all landlords. Could you provide some evidence please.



They were fucking pimps and had access to properties which enabled them to exploit these girls for money. So, worse than Landlords.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They were fucking pimps and had access to properties which enabled them to exploit these girls for money. So, worse than Landlords.


So now they're not landlords but have "access to properties." Hmmm still waiting on your evidence - maybe a court report?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

19force8 said:


> So now they're not landlords but have "access to properties." Hmmm still waiting on your evidence - maybe a court report?



Can you point to where I said they were Landlords? I simply used Landlords as an example of where class barriers are drawn and then you decided to be disingenuous about it as usual.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t agree with all of her analysis especially where she appeared to place the perps and victims on the same class pegging despite girls in care (effectively homeless) being moved around locations to be abused (property owners) so she falls into the trap that she’s (rightfully) attempting to criticise.





Magnus McGinty said:


> How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.





Magnus McGinty said:


> I said ‘properties’ meaning landlordism or places above businesses. I never mentioned ‘home owners’.





Magnus McGinty said:


> If you exploit labour (either legally or illegally) for profit then you’re not working class. Perhaps they were hand to mouth pimps and didn’t invest in property or other businesses?





Magnus McGinty said:


> Are Landlords working class then?
> I think I’d rather suffer being exploited through rent rather than locked in said room to be sold for sex.


Probably one of the above, but I can't be arsed to parse every sentence you write as you wriggle on this particular hook. I think your real argument is with LM and maybe if you took it up with her you could get some resolution.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Probably one of the above, but I can't be arsed to parse every sentence you write as you wriggle on this particular hook. I think your real argument is with LM and maybe if you took it up with her you could get some resolution.



So you can’t point to it then? Because I can’t either. I don’t know precisely how they managed to operate. But they were using properties as part of their offending. Unless they had their rape factories in the local park?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Maybe this was all going on in family homes? 
Fuck knows.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t know precisely how they managed to operate.



And yet you know their class, their property portfolios and were so clear on all of this you kicked this off by attacking LM for getting it wrong. 

By the way, you have stated this rape gang were landlords - over and again - on the past two pages. 

A seriously odd intervention. 

I note you still haven't picked your outrage up with Lisa herself. Why? Because you have jumped to the (wrong) conclusions and rather than letting it go or even admitting your OP was misjudged you have instead adopted attack as the best form of defence strategy?


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So you can’t point to it then? Because I can’t either. I don’t know precisely how they managed to operate. But they were using properties as part of their offending. Unless they had their rape factories in the local park?


Sorry, forgot to put in the sarcasm alert there. I thought those quotes taken together pretty much showed you thought the abusers were landlords. But now they're just using properties as part of their offending.

Would you accept them as lumpen proletariat?

Again, I really think you should take this up with Lisa McKenzie rather than using Urban as a proxy.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And yet you know their class, their property portfolios and were so clear on all of this you kicked this off by attacking LM for getting it wrong.
> 
> By the way, you have stated this rape gang were landlords - over and again - on the past two pages.
> 
> ...



Who is being attacked? I thought we were just discussing it. It probably comes down to how we identify working class. I don’t put pimps into the worker category. How can they be when they’re exploiting women for money?
Perhaps the property angle was misjudged. I don’t see how though as these hundreds of young girls were clearly being abused _somewhere_ and presumably they were managing to keep it hidden.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Again, I really think you should take this up with Lisa McKenzie rather than using Urban as a proxy.



Do you write to many journalists about their articles and never discuss them on here then?
This position of me contacting the author directly is just weird.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you write to many journalists about their articles and never discuss them on here then?
> This position of me contacting the author directly is just weird.


Whatever the ins and outs of the arguments here, it is ridiculous to have a go at a poster for linking to an article and discussing it here without having contacted the author first. This is what we all do all of the time.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do you write to many journalists about their articles and never discuss them on here then?
> This position of me contacting the author directly is just weird.



LM isn't a journalist! Her website and social media are open for comment.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> LM isn't a journalist! Her website and social media are open for comment.



She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever the ins and outs of the arguments here, it is ridiculous to have a go at a poster for linking to an article and discussing it here without having contacted the author first. This is what we all do all of the time.



Nobody is having a go. People are asking why he hasn't discussed it with Lisa herself. That's a perfectly reasonable question.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Okay. Here are some academic papers on CSA that might help us all:

Ella  Cockbain | University College London - Academia.edu

Haven't had time to read them yet.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.



Yes, basically not a journalist. She is also a supporter of class war and an activist. She is accessible.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.


you may recall when diamond was on about his local mosque being segregated and the women's entrance down a side alley, and i asked him if he'd done anything to try to resolve this situation to his satisfaction, but it turned out all he'd done was froth on here about it. again, more recently, there have been great long threads all about trans people and self-identity and the government's proposed reforms to the gra. again, i asked whether people had engaged with the consultation or whether they were going to froth on it here. this is another similar position, where you can only resolve your differences with lm by talking to her rather than by applying to her sentiments or beliefs she may not actually have. so  by all means carry on chatting about it as you have: but please don't say that no one has ever asked people here 'have you done anything about this irl?'


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.


She's also an anarchist and blogger who clearly welcomes/expects engagement with her work.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

19force8 said:


> She's also an anarchist and blogger who clearly welcomes/expects engagement with her work.


maybe for magnus this falls under the 'never meet your heroes' prohibition.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, basically not a journalist. She is also a supporter of class war and an activist. She is accessible.



But this is a discussion board where we discuss things. Can you point to other examples of where your suggestion is the correct convention? It’s just.. bizarre.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> you may recall when diamond was on about his local mosque being segregated and the women's entrance down a side alley, and i asked him if he'd done anything to try to resolve this situation to his satisfaction, but it turned out all he'd done was froth on here about it. again, more recently, there have been great long threads all about trans people and self-identity and the government's proposed reforms to the gra. again, i asked whether people had engaged with the consultation or whether they were going to froth on it here. this is another similar position, where you can only resolve your differences with lm by talking to her rather than by applying to her sentiments or beliefs she may not actually have. so  by all means carry on chatting about it as you have: but please don't say that no one has ever asked people here 'have you done anything about this irl?'



It’s a first for me. Can you point to where else you’ve suggested people take up articles with the author rather than discuss them here? Or where anyone else has suggested similar?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s a first for me. Can you point to where else you’ve suggested people take up articles with the author rather than discuss them here? Or where anyone else has suggested similar?


if as you profess you admire lisa then it should not be controversial to suggest that if you are at odds with her, you contact her. i am happy to provide you links to the two occasions i mention above. but it is a strange way to show respect for someone, to refuse to contact them.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if as you profess you admire lisa then it should not be controversial to suggest that if you are at odds with her, you contact her. i am happy to provide you links to the two occasions i mention above. but it is a strange way to show respect for someone, to refuse to contact them.



Can you give me examples or not?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Can you give me examples or not?


i have given you two examples of 'something similar' where people froth here instead of contacting the people they should.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But this is a discussion board where we discuss things. Can you point to other examples of where your suggestion is the correct convention? It’s just.. bizarre.



Last month LM was attacked on here for an earlier blog post where she had noted that the DLFA and the FLAF looked similar in terms of class and clothing. She contrasted this to some others on the demo who looked like they were possessive of cultural and social capital. The rest of her article - raising important points about the massive vacuum in working class representation and her despair at how large swathes of the working class were being pushed away from our side by the middle class left and towards the right - was lost in outrage at one comment in a long blog piece. You had to conclude that this missing of the point was deliberate by some.

Now, you choose to post - wrongly interpreting one line of her piece - in a manner that again detracts from the wider points she makes.

Finally if LM wrote something that I didn't understand/agree with I would 100% clarify/raise it with her before coming on here. We aren't talking about Owen Jones here. We are talking about someone I assumed you would recognise has and is promoting pro working class politics. Someone on our side. Someone who has been battered and attacked for her politics. Can you at least understand this point?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Yes.

I still think it’s an interesting discussion point as to what makes people lumpen vs what makes them capitalists. These are organised gangs exploiting labour value and the commodification of young girls for money.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2018)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever the ins and outs of the arguments here, it is ridiculous to have a go at a poster for linking to an article and discussing it here without having contacted the author first. This is what we all do all of the time.



How does he imagine he is going to tackle 'it', the thing that he criticises LM for if he doesn't engage with her?

Simply generalising that all of the 'left' does 'it' and saying it needs 'tackling' is rubbish and does nothing to 'tackle' the 'it' that clearly upsets him.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 2, 2018)

This seems a bit weird. I wouldn’t send anyone comments on the internet about their work unless I knew them. It would just get interpreted as the usual internet hostility, for a start. If I felt really strongly about it I might write a response essay or something.

There are plenty of people whom I think are generally good who have written something I disagree with (LM included - though I haven’t read this particular piece yet) and I would never think of arguing directly with them on the internet.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2018)

This_ take it up with her_ is an odd and unwelcome angle. It would be the the death of this board. Bizarre.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 2, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> How does he imagine he is going to tackle 'it', the thing that he criticises LM for if he doesn't engage with her?
> 
> Simply generalising that all of the 'left' does 'it' and saying it needs 'tackling' is rubbish and does nothing to 'tackle' the 'it' that clearly upsets him.



Tackle the issue, not put LM to rights


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This seems a bit weird. I wouldn’t send anyone comments on the internet about their work unless I knew them. It would just get interpreted as the usual internet hostility, for a start. If I felt really strongly about it I might write a response essay or something.
> 
> There are plenty of people whom I think are generally good who have written something I disagree with (LM included - though I haven’t read this particular piece yet) and I would never think of arguing directly with them on the internet.




The point is...it isn't enough to accuse the 'left' of doing this thing he doesn't like...if someone here is doing that thing quote it and discuss it...quoting LM and accusing the rest of the 'left' of doing 'it' leads anyone where exactly?

How can it be tackled without engaging with those he perceives as doing 'it'?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 2, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> The point is...it isn't enough to accuse the 'left' of doing this thing he doesn't like...if someone here is doing that thing quote it and discuss it...quoting LM and accusing the rest of the 'left' of doing 'it' leads anyone where exactly?
> 
> How can it be tackled without engaging with those he perceives as doing 'it'?



Why are you asking FM for my views after saying I should engage directly with LM?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why are you asking FM for my views after saying I should engage directly with LM?



Nope. I am asking FM his views whilst talking about you/your posts here today. There is a difference.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 2, 2018)

Rutita1 said:


> The point is...it isn't enough to accuse the 'left' of doing this thing he doesn't like...if someone here is doing that thing quote it and discuss it...quoting LM and accusing the rest of the 'left' of doing 'it' leads anyone where exactly?
> 
> How can it be tackled without engaging with those he perceives as doing 'it'?


I'm not 100% sure I'm with you here, but I'm talking about the idea that you shouldn't publicly criticise a particular person's arguments without trying to talk to them personally first. I think that's wrong. I'm not talking about comments about the "left".


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2018)

Load of confused backtracking posted as never before invoked principle. Fuck that.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2018)

Oh no, i mentioned ** whilst they have social media. Fuck off. What do you think this place is?


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 2, 2018)

What a weird couple of pages.

I too am new to this rule that before disagreeing with something you take it up with the author first. That’s just odd. Odd, impractical and made up.


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 2, 2018)

nvm


----------



## Riklet (Nov 2, 2018)

I think that's a great article personally.

What's even the issue? Anyone seriously offended by that article needs to get a fucking grip and have a think.  1.8 million Saint Tommy views and the left blowing its trumpet on twitter about The Revolution should be far more of a cause for concern.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 3, 2018)

Riklet said:


> I think that's a great article personally.
> 
> What's even the issue? Anyone seriously offended by that article needs to get a fucking grip and have a think.  1.8 million Saint Tommy views and the left blowing its trumpet on twitter about The Revolution should be far more of a cause for concern.


----------



## Riklet (Nov 3, 2018)

Go on then.  Make your point.

I've made mine.  And I'll go one step further.  If you consider yourself on the left and yet you are offended or perturbed to hear these kind of conversations taking place or people trying to address a controversial issue rather than dig their heels in and carpet sweep the _omg so offensive_ but very real fact that pretty much all these men were Pakistani or from Pakistani background, combined with the fact that this was hushed up by a middle class Labour council and "pilars of the community" on all sides.... then go and fuck yourself.  I'm glad youre offended.


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 3, 2018)

Who/what are you responding to?


----------



## Riklet (Nov 3, 2018)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Who/what are you responding to?


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 3, 2018)

Riklet said:


>



Who on this thread is ‘getting offended’?


----------



## Riklet (Nov 3, 2018)

No one really.  I guess I'm chatting shit.


----------



## LiamO (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I too am new to this rule that before disagreeing with something you take it up with the author first. That’s just odd. *Odd, impractical and made up.*



... and, sadly, par for the course


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> What a weird couple of pages.
> 
> I too am new to this rule that before disagreeing with something you take it up with the author first. That’s just odd. Odd, impractical and made up.



And coming from four different posters, none of them newbies and two of them old school.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 3, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Okay. Here are some academic papers on CSA that might help us all:
> 
> Ella  Cockbain | University College London - Academia.edu
> 
> Haven't had time to read them yet.


There's some interesting reading there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> What a weird couple of pages.
> 
> I too am new to this rule that before disagreeing with something you take it up with the author first. That’s just odd. Odd, impractical and made up.


Yeh, at the very least you should take things up with the author when you know you disagree with something rather than before. Doing it your way round is really impractical. But I haven't said it's a rule, rather that some things need to be taken up with people off the boards if the poster really wants a resolution. Otherwise it's just frothing. Of course Magnus McGinty could pop down the ripper museum next week where I'm sure he'll be able to chat to Lisa and any concerns he has about what she said can be dealt with


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, at the very least you should take things up with the author when you know you disagree with something rather than before. Doing it your way round is really impractical. But I haven't said it's a rule, rather that some things need to be taken up with people off the boards if the poster really wants a resolution. Otherwise it's just frothing. Of course Magnus McGinty could pop down the ripper museum next week where I'm sure he'll be able to chat to Lisa and any concerns he has about what she said can be dealt with



So what’s the point of this place then? BTW, I’ve never before felt the need to debate authors directly, you can’t point to examples of posters suggesting it previously, other long term posters and an admin are perplexed by the suggestion so I’ve no idea why you’re ploughing on with it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

It’s like some childish online equivalent of “say it to their face, go on, I dare ya!”


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So what’s the point of this place then? BTW, I’ve never before felt the need to debate authors directly, you can’t point to examples of posters suggesting it previously, other long term posters and an admin are perplexed by the suggestion so I’ve no idea why you’re ploughing on with it.


Yeh, it's a suggestion. It's not a rule. And there's no onus on you to do it. But if you think Lisa's wrong and you do indeed have the respect for her you say you do then it seems to me you should raise it, as you'd both gain from any ensuing discussion. There's no need to do it on the Internet, sure you could have a chat with her in person at an event you might go to anyway


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, it's a suggestion. It's not a rule. And there's no onus on you to do it. But if you think Lisa's wrong and you do indeed have the respect for her you say you do then it seems to me you should raise it, as you'd both gain from any ensuing discussion. There's no need to do it on the Internet, sure you could have a chat with her in person at an event you might go to anyway



But what’s the point when I’ve already been told I’m WRONG by wiser heads here and thus saving me from travelling across town to publicly embarrass myself? In fact I was told that simply disagreeing with her made me a cunt of the highest order as she’s on our side.
Besides, I’m busy next Sat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But what’s the point when I’ve already been told I’m WRONG by wiser heads here and thus saving me from travelling across town to publicly embarrass myself? In fact I was told that simply disagreeing with her made me a cunt of the highest order as she’s on our side.
> Besides, I’m busy next Sat.


you shouldn't be called a cunt for disagreeing with someone. No one's right all the time. Lisa can't expect to be right all the time, I can't, hell even Ian bone's wrong on occasion. And while you're welcome to humiliate yourself if you so desire, in your shoes I'd just ask her about what she wrote, what led her to that pov. It's a pity you're busy next weekend but I hope you enjoy what you have planned.


----------



## danny la rouge (Nov 3, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, at the very least you should take things up with the author when you know you disagree with something rather than before. Doing it your way round is really impractical. But I haven't said it's a rule, rather that some things need to be taken up with people off the boards if the poster really wants a resolution. Otherwise it's just frothing. Of course Magnus McGinty could pop down the ripper museum next week where I'm sure he'll be able to chat to Lisa and any concerns he has about what she said can be dealt with


I’ve not yet read the piece that Magnus is supposed to take up with Lisa. I may not even disagree with it. But let’s say I disagree with something else, and I know where to find the author, is there a cut off point for travel time? If it’s a 40 minute round trip, would it be OK to post my opinion  on the boards before attempting the journey? What about 50 minutes? An hour?  

The other day I posted up a report in the press about a book I hadn’t yet read. In that case I happened to know the author. I’m wondering whether actually I should have waited until I’d read the book, spoken to the author about it, and ironed out with her any queries I had about the text? Please advise.

Also, foolishly, I clicked like on a post that was discussing an interview between Paul Mattick Jr and Phil Neel. But actually I know where to find Paul Mattick’s email address. Should I go back and unlike the post?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve not yet read the piece that Magnus is supposed to take up with Lisa. I may not even disagree with it. But let’s say I disagree with something else, and I know where to find the author, is there a cut off point for travel time? If it’s a 40 minute round trip, would it be OK to post my opinion  on the boards before attempting the journey? What about 50 minutes? An hour?


it's up to you, but if you don't admire or respect them perhaps you shouldn't travel at all. 



> The other day I posted up a report in the press about a book I hadn’t yet read. In that case I happened to know the author. I’m wondering whether actually I should have waited until I’d read the book, spoken to the author about it, and ironed out with her any queries I had about the text? Please advise.


 at the time you had no queries about the text as you hadn't read it, so there was nothing to raise with the author



> Also, foolishly, I clicked like on a post that was discussing an interview between Paul Mattick Jr and Phil Neel. But actually I know where to find Paul Mattick’s email address. Should I go back and unlike the post?


 only if you have the assent of both neel and mattick


----------



## maomao (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So you can’t point to it then? Because I can’t either. I don’t know precisely how they managed to operate. But they were using properties as part of their offending. Unless they had their rape factories in the local park?


I know there's two pages of nonsense since this post but are you really claiming that they are a different class because they raped indoors rather than outdoors? Properties just means buildings.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

maomao said:


> I know there's two pages of nonsense since this post but are you really claiming that they are a different class because they raped indoors rather than outdoors? Properties just means buildings.



I assumed there were property / business owners amongst their number. Alongside the fact they exploit people for profit.


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## maomao (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I assumed there were property / business owners amongst their number. Alongside the fact they exploit people for profit.



Assume makes an ass out of u and me.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

maomao said:


> Assume makes an ass out of u and me.



All these working class blokes with properties where they could run brothels eh?


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## danny la rouge (Nov 3, 2018)

Re: authors.

I’ve been doing it wrong for all the years I’ve been here then. Because I’ve often aired my disagreements with authors with whom I might otherwise agree on here before, and often without ever, taking it up with them directly.

In atonement I will now only discuss sojourner ‘s published output, but only after PMing her with my opinions.


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## FridgeMagnet (Nov 3, 2018)

BRB, just off down Toby Young’s house to explain why I think he’s a cunt.


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## planetgeli (Nov 3, 2018)

I think I actually discussed a book by my brother with someone on here without first fully clearing my arguments with my brother himself.

Firing squad please.


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## JimW (Nov 3, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> BRB, just off down Toby Young’s house to explain why I think he’s a cunt.


Won't be right back I reckon, queue to cunt him off gets pretty long weekends.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> BRB, just off down Toby Young’s house to explain why I think he’s a cunt.


You won't BRB, there's a queue a mile long


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## Yossarian (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I assumed there were property / business owners amongst their number. Alongside the fact they exploit people for profit.



I think I see where you're coming from - but the sleazeballs involved here weren't exploiting workers for profit, they were just rapists.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

planetgeli said:


> I think I actually discussed a book by my brother with someone on here without first fully clearing my arguments with my brother himself.
> 
> Firing squad please.


If you feel the need to clear things with your brother first a firing squad's the least you deserve


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> Re: authors.
> 
> I’ve been doing it wrong for all the years I’ve been here then. Because I’ve often aired my disagreements with authors with whom I might otherwise agree on here before, and often without ever, taking it up with them directly.
> 
> In atonement I will now only discuss sojourner ‘s published output, but only after PMing her with my opinions.


((((sojourner)))))


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> I think I see where you're coming from - but the sleazeballs involved here weren't exploiting workers for profit, they were just rapists.



Forced/coerced prostitution also featured in the offending.


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## Yossarian (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Forced/coerced prostitution also featured in the offending.



The thing I don't like about calling the rape gangs bourgeoisie is that it implies the girls were either workers or property - they were neither, though their abusers certainly acted like that was the case.


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## Smokeandsteam (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> Re: authors.
> 
> I’ve been doing it wrong for all the years I’ve been here then. Because I’ve often aired my disagreements with authors with whom I might otherwise agree on here before, and often without ever, taking it up with them directly.
> 
> In atonement I will now only discuss sojourner ‘s published output, but only after PMing her with my opinions.



The point here, for me anyway and I as explained in my last post, is this:

If someone who you generally support politically and express ‘respect’ for writes something that you don’t understand or agree with, and that person is someone involved in activism and you are likely to see round and about, then it would be a good idea to discuss it with them.

If that person is very active on various social media then the chances to do so are plentiful and easy.

I’m really sorry if these suggestions have shocked urban to the core as this seem blindingly obvious to me.

Finally, the breach of this urban shibboleth - don’t talk to comrades and allies, talk here - has obscured three other things that have arisen - the important issues raised by Lisa’s article itself, the ongoing attempt to demonise her (not Magnus intention I accept) and the fact that on this occasion Magnus was talking out of his hole


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> The thing I don't like about calling the rape gangs bourgeoisie is that it implies the girls were either workers or property - they were neither, though their abusers certainly acted like that was the case.



Well I suppose that rests on whether we consider sex work to be work. Difficult to say it isn’t work given it produces profit.


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## Yossarian (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well I suppose that rests on whether we consider sex work to be work. Difficult to say it isn’t work given it produces profit.



Sex work is work, but being raped isn't sex work - and the men who had sex with abused underage girls in Rotherham and elsewhere were rapists, not customers, whether or not they paid money to somebody.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The point here, for me anyway and I as explained in my last post, is this:
> 
> If someone who you generally support politically and express ‘respect’ for writes something that you don’t understand or agree with, and that person is someone involved in activism and you are likely to see round and about, then it would be a good idea to discuss it with them.



What makes you think I’m likely to see LM ‘round and about’? Apart from the bookfair I’m unlikely to bump into her as I’m simply not part of the scene that you assume I am.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> Sex work is work, but being raped isn't sex work - and the men who had sex with abused underage girls in Rotherham and elsewhere were rapists, not customers, whether or not they paid money to somebody.



They’re still being exploited for profit whether the sex was agreed, coerced or forced.


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## Yossarian (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re still being exploited for profit whether the sex was agreed, coerced or forced.



It's probably extremely wrong of me to hope that the men involved are now exploring similar issues around class dynamics, but with tobacco as the currency and themselves as the underclass.


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## danny la rouge (Nov 3, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The point here, for me anyway and I as explained in my last post, is this:
> 
> If someone who you generally support politically and express ‘respect’ for writes something that you don’t understand or agree with, and that person is someone involved in activism and you are likely to see round and about, then it would be a good idea to discuss it with them.
> 
> ...


I don’t know why you’re airing this on the boards instead of taking it up with me privately.


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## danny la rouge (Nov 3, 2018)

maomao said:


> I know there's two pages of nonsense since this post but are you really claiming that they are a different class because they raped indoors rather than outdoors? Properties just means buildings.


I don’t follow all of Magnus McGinty ‘s argument, to be honest, but he’s capable of looking after himself. However on the issue of the social and socioeconomic status of the perps, the Hussain family were business owners who were said to “own Rotherham” (Guilty: Mad Ash, Bash and Bono - gun-toting, grooming family who ‘owned’ Rotherham ). They were certainly not on a par with the girls as far as power and position was concerned. And to miss that would, I think, be to be missing an important point.

Indeed, a core feature of top down multiculturalism is that is deals with “community leaders”, which is how the authorities apparently viewed the Hussains and others for decades. That is a huge part of the dynamic here.


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## butchersapron (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t follow all of Magnus McGinty ‘s argument, to be honest, but he’s capable of looking after himself. However on the issue of the social and socioeconomic status of the perps, the Hussain family were business owners who were said to “own Rotherham” (Guilty: Mad Ash, Bash and Bono - gun-toting, grooming family who ‘owned’ Rotherham ). They were certainly not on a par with the girls as far as power and position was concerned. And to miss that would, I think, be to be missing an important point.
> 
> Indeed, a core feature of top down multiculturalism is that is deals with “community leaders”, which is how the authorities apparently viewed the Hussains and others for decades. That is a huge part of the dynamic here.


...and assumes that people are "poor immigrants".


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

So I was right. Thanks chaps.


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## 19force8 (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I don’t follow all of Magnus McGinty ‘s argument, to be honest, but he’s capable of looking after himself. However on the issue of the social and socioeconomic status of the perps, the Hussain family were business owners who were said to “own Rotherham” (Guilty: Mad Ash, Bash and Bono - gun-toting, grooming family who ‘owned’ Rotherham ). They were certainly not on a par with the girls as far as power and position was concerned. And to miss that would, I think, be to be missing an important point.


Agree about the Hussains, however LM's article was not about this case, but about the issue more generally. I thought it was this that Magnus McGinty was disagreeing with.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Agree about the Hussains, however LM's article was not about this case, but about the issue more generally. I thought it was this that Magnus McGinty was disagreeing with.



It’s as obvious as the day is long that there’s people involved in this who have money. My issue is that they were all deemed workers by virtue of being Asian. Hardly a controversial point?


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## dshl (Nov 3, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> I'd rather be, falsely, called a racist and speak out than allow this fucking awful shit to continue happen to young vulnerable girls. That people may have known about this and put themselves,  their reputation and career first fucking sickness me. Anyone who knew about this and did nothing us complicit. Fuck them.


How did we get here though? A climate where you are having to stick your neck out, having to risk your reputation and livelihood, in order to protect children from being plied with alcohol, drugs and being gang raped?


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## danny la rouge (Nov 3, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Agree about the Hussains, however LM's article was not about this case, but about the issue more generally. I thought it was this that Magnus McGinty was disagreeing with.


I’m not discussing LM’s article, but the situation in Rotherham.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> ...and assumes that people are "poor immigrants".


Yeh ignoring that people can wear several appearances in different networks, poor immigrant in one, influential nonce in another.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I’m not discussing LM’s article, but the situation in Rotherham.


Glad we've cleared that up


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## danny la rouge (Nov 3, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Glad we've cleared that up


I’ve not read LM’s article yet, but clearly if I want to take part in the thread, I shouldn’t.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

You should take it up with her directly.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

danny la rouge said:


> I’ve not read LM’s article yet, but clearly if I want to take part in the thread, I shouldn’t.


If that's what you think I advise you to read it then


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## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You should take it up with her directly.


No one's said you must but it is peculiar you, in particular, dismiss the notion out of hand


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## 19force8 (Nov 3, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s as obvious as the day is long that there’s people involved in this who have money. My issue is that they were all deemed workers by virtue of being Asian. Hardly a controversial point?


But that is precisely what LM was challenging:


> And also in the way that predominantly the left who appear to have misinterpreted anti-racism by creating ‘the victim’ and treating all ethnic minority groups as one dimensional people who have nothing but their exploitation, while at the same time holding people to their ‘white privilege’ without understanding or engaging in the politics of class and gender.


That fucking "left" again though.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 3, 2018)

Go back to my first post and start again. If you can be arsed.


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## Magnus McGinty (Nov 5, 2018)

Here’s an example where they had access to a restaurant to pimp out the girls. It doesn’t go into their occupations but how do you get access to a restaurant after hours without the owner’s complicity? 



> One of the victims told the court she and her friend were driven to a restaurant in Wellington, Telford, Shropshire, after hours.
> 
> Ringleader of Telford grooming gang is maimed in razor attack | Daily Mail Online


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## two sheds (Nov 5, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> you shouldn't be called a cunt for disagreeing with someone.



You've not quite got the hang of this place yet.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 5, 2018)

two sheds said:


> You've not quite got the hang of this place yet.


You shouldn't be called a cunt for disagreeing with someone when there are so many other more imaginative insults


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## two sheds (Nov 5, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> You shouldn't be called a cunt for disagreeing with someone when there are so many other more imaginative insults



My mistake, apologies.


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## Shechemite (Nov 5, 2018)

two sheds said:


> My mistake, apologies.





two sheds said:


> You've not quite got the hang of this place yet.



Glass houses and all that


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## Sprocket. (Mar 2, 2019)

Just hearing Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, former Labour peer and Lord Mayor of Rotherham, has been charged with attempted rape of a 13 year old girl.
I can’t post link at moment but it is being reported on the BBC news.


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## butchersapron (Mar 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Just hearing Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, former Labour peer and Lord Mayor of Rotherham, has been charged with attempted rape of a 13 year old girl.
> I can’t post link at moment but it is being reported on the BBC news.


Boy. With other stuff to do with girls. Children either way. Unless it's a new charge since yesterday. He was in the orbit of the RESPECT/loons/jews/911 stuff with corbyn attending and speaking at events he did.


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## Sprocket. (Mar 2, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Boy. With other stuff to do with girls. Children either way. Unless it's a new charge since yesterday. He was in the orbit of the RESPECT/loons/jews/911 stuff with corbyn attending and speaking at events he did.



Yes, sorry boy, and girls. Just heard on Radio Sheffield.


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 2, 2019)

Who can forget the fact that his downfall was all the fault of the Jews?

We can now add sickening paedophilia to Lord Ahmed’s CV and continue to wonder how he became a peer and Mayor of a once proud industrial town. 

Who promoted him, who facilitated it?

Lord Ahmed resigns from Labour Party


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## Sprocket. (Mar 2, 2019)

How deep does the cesspit go?


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## Smokeandsteam (Mar 2, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> How deep does the cesspit go?



In Rotherham or the Labour Party’s/lefts accommodation with this filth?


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## Sprocket. (Mar 2, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Rotherham or the Labour Party’s/lefts accommodation with this filth?



I would sincerely hope that Rotherham children’ Services and SY Police has at least learned something from the debacle and actioned improvements.

The Labour Party and the rest are probably still looking for more scapegoats. 
I feel a bit sorry for Sarah Champion, though she knew what she was taking on, any criticisms or views she makes are met with derision and anger.


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## likesfish (Mar 2, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Who can forget the fact that his downfall was all the fault of the Jews?
> 
> We can now add sickening paedophilia to Lord Ahmed’s CV and continue to wonder how he became a peer and Mayor of a once proud industrial town.
> 
> ...




as the charges relate to when he was a kid himself from the 70s its not noncery as such although there maybe more stuff to come


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## belboid (Mar 2, 2019)

Smokeandsteam said:


> In Rotherham or the Labour Party’s/lefts accommodation with this filth?


Please do expand on this ‘lefts accommodation’ with this cunt.


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## elbows (Jan 5, 2022)

Sprocket. said:


> Just hearing Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, former Labour peer and Lord Mayor of Rotherham, has been charged with attempted rape of a 13 year old girl.
> I can’t post link at moment but it is being reported on the BBC news.


Guilty:









						Lord Ahmed: Former Labour peer guilty of child sex offences
					

Lord Ahmed of Rotherham is convicted of assaulting a young boy and a girl's attempted rape.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Sprocket. (Feb 4, 2022)

Lord Ahmed: Ex-Labour peer jailed for child sex offences Lord Ahmed: Ex-Labour peer jailed for child sex offences

Maybe he should be stripped of his title too!


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## existentialist (Feb 4, 2022)

Sprocket. said:


> Lord Ahmed: Ex-Labour peer jailed for child sex offences Lord Ahmed: Ex-Labour peer jailed for child sex offences
> 
> Maybe he should be stripped of his title too!


It needs an Act of Parliament, whom I understand are busy with other matters at the moment.


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## Sprocket. (Feb 28, 2022)

And yet another one. Squirming all the way!

Rotherham abuse: Detective failed to record cases - hearing Rotherham abuse: Detective failed to record cases - hearing


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