# What's the grimmest place up north?



## Orang Utan (Feb 22, 2007)

Oldham? Skelmersdale? Rotherham? Your nominations please.


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## maomao (Feb 22, 2007)

Stevenage.


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## pk (Feb 22, 2007)

Barrow in Furness.

Possibly the worst shithole town I have ever visited in the world.

And I've visited a few.


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## maximilian ping (Feb 22, 2007)

* Bradford
    * Kingston upon Hull
    * Leeds
    * Liverpool
    * Manchester
    * Newcastle upon Tyne
    * Sheffield
    * Sunderland
    * York

    * Barnsley, Barrow-in-Furness, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Blackburn, Blackpool, Bolton, Burnley, Bury
    * Carlisle
    * Darlington, Doncaster, Durham
    * Gateshead
    * Halifax, Hartlepool, Harrogate, Huddersfield
    * Jarrow
    * Kendal
    * Lancaster
    * Macclesfield, Middlesbrough, Morecambe
    * Oldham
    * Penrith, Preston
    * Rotherham, Rochdale, Ripon
    * Scarborough, Skipton, Southport, St Helens, Stockport, Stockton-on-Tees
    * Wakefield, Warrington, Whitby, Whitehaven, Widnes, Wigan, Workington

    * Chester, Cleethorpes, Crewe
    * Ellesmere Port
    * Grimsby
    * Scunthorpe, Stoke-on-Trent


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## Sweaty Betty (Feb 22, 2007)

warrington....grim


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## Orang Utan (Feb 22, 2007)

you mean all of it then, Mr Ping?


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## Kanda (Feb 22, 2007)

Firky


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## Firky (Feb 22, 2007)




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## moose (Feb 22, 2007)

Oldham.


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## Firky (Feb 22, 2007)

Had a think about this:

Hull
Grimsby
Blyth
Parts of Wallsend
Bradford

Some of the grimmest places I have been to have been in the south. Portsmouth, Ipswich, Slough etc.


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## bfg (Feb 22, 2007)

The whole of the north is beautiful. Sometimes on the outside. Sometimes on the inside. 

But you got me thinking. Whats Slough looking like these days?

(or Basingstoke, Stevenage, or any of those other tragically identical, soulless, barrattbox infested holes you pay an absolute kings ransom to exit in?)

If you're really that envious, dont post bitter threads, just relocate.

Lifes too short


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## laptop (Feb 23, 2007)

Watford 

Mansfield. No, really. Don't go there.


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## Appassionata (Feb 23, 2007)

maximilian ping said:
			
		

> * Bradford
> * Kingston upon Hull
> * Leeds
> * Liverpool
> ...




So no-one's been to Salford, Dewsbury, Batley or Keighley, then?


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## pk (Feb 23, 2007)

Appassionata said:
			
		

> So no-one's been to Salford, Dewsbury, Batley or Keighley, then?



Salford's nice now, especially the Quays area - gentrification is what that shithole needed.

Keighley's nice too - Bronte country. I'm sure I've been through Dewsbury, Yorkshire towns tend to blend in to one another, but I quite like that neck of the woods...


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## oneflewover (Feb 23, 2007)

Middlesborough, Redcar, Billingham, Stockton, Hartlepool. The whole of Teeside has had it. It's nearly a wasteland. Swathes of boarded up houses, empty factorys and demolished industrial sites. 

A once proud area laid waste.


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## laptop (Feb 23, 2007)

A few years ago I was invited to speak at a union meeting in Middlesborough and I was rather looking forward to some Victorian industrial dereliction, blue engineering bricks an' all...

The approach by train was all slip-roads and Carpet Warehouse 

Mansfield's still grimmer, though. It's never been anywhere.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 23, 2007)

bfg said:
			
		

> If you're really that envious, dont post bitter threads, just relocate.
> 
> Lifes too short


I'm not at all bitter. I'm a Northerner myself and am reading a book (not buck) about the north, so thought I'd get the opinions of other northern folk, naively expecting t'southerners wouldn't chip in with their nonsense.


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## King Biscuit Time (Feb 23, 2007)

Ilfracombe


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## Orang Utan (Feb 23, 2007)

laptop said:
			
		

> A few years ago I was invited to speak at a union meeting in Middlesborough and I was rather looking forward to some Victorian industrial dereliction, blue engineering bricks an' all...
> 
> The approach by train was all slip-roads and Carpet Warehouse
> 
> Mansfield's still grimmer, though. It's never been anywhere.


To be fair, the approach by rail is never a fair indication of the town within, as it tends to go through the less salubrious non-residential areas, which are of course invariably grim, unless you squint your eyes and truly appreciate the stark bleak beauty of the industrial hinterland


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## pk (Feb 23, 2007)

At least Mansfield has a Center Parcs to redeem it, and some nice forests.

I quite liked the charm of the old coal mining town, it was interesting... if a little sad to see a once thriving industry fucked unceremoniously into the history books.


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## laptop (Feb 23, 2007)

chin dildo said:
			
		

> stark bleak beauty of the industrial hinterland



And that was what it was missing. It was a vision of garagiste petty-capitalism to warm the Thatcher "heart"


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## Orang Utan (Feb 23, 2007)

Can't you appreciate the deceptive beauty of a Morrison's or Carpet Warehouse placed sensitively on the stunning vista of a featureless flood plain? It's next level beauty that we will all appreciate one day, like 60s built multi story car parks.


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## JohnC (Feb 23, 2007)

I'm sure I just read *Ilfracombe*.


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## moose (Feb 23, 2007)

JohnC said:
			
		

> I'm sure I just read *Ilfracombe*.


North is relative 

Incidentally, I find that some grimness can be very appealing, depends whether it's old grimness (Ancoats) or _nouveau grim_ (Moss Side)


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## UTJF (Feb 23, 2007)

Warsop


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## snorbury (Feb 23, 2007)

Lille


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## neonwilderness (Feb 23, 2007)

Most of Middlesbrough and some parts of Sunderland are pretty grim.


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## quiet_rob (Feb 23, 2007)

Bradford!!


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## Spion (Feb 23, 2007)

quiet_rob said:
			
		

> Bradford!!


 (Looks out of window for quiet_rob) I'm also in Saltaire


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## Luciona (Feb 23, 2007)

neonwilderness said:
			
		

> Most of Middlesbrough and some parts of Sunderland are pretty grim.



Word.  Stockton town centre is pretty shocking stuff as well and Stockton's Jobby is a particularly grim spot that i used to frequent.


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## Tom A (Feb 23, 2007)

People keep telling me Morecambe is pretty shite... not been there yet though.

Some parts of Stoke-on-Trent are pretty grim, Burslem for one example, the town centre is completely dead, it's stuck in a no-man's-land between Tunstall and Hanley, and since the pottery industry is going the Mother Town has lost it's _raison d'etre._

Ashington, Northumberland is also pretty grim, that whole area seems to be stuck 50 years in the past, and the locals are pretty hostile to outsiders, I have heard that happens a lot in ex-mining towns, and who can blame them after the shit that they have been put through...


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## skunkboy69 (Feb 23, 2007)

Blyth is an utter cockhole


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## ddraig (Feb 23, 2007)

moose said:
			
		

> North is relative
> <snip>


 
Llangollen


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## chriswill (Feb 23, 2007)

Appassionata said:
			
		

> So no-one's been to Salford, Dewsbury, Batley or Keighley, then?




Salford always gets a bashing.

 

Its a great place to live, it has its share of nutters but where doesnt'?


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## mauvais (Feb 23, 2007)

Mansfield's not in the North, it's in the Midlands. It's not the grimmest place though; lovely forests and MTB trails, plus the town didn't look anything spectacularly awful on the few occasions I've seen it.

Morecambe's pretty bad - properly killed off seaside resort - but I've never properly wandered around, and The Platform music venue gives it a positive mark.

Blackpool's shite but it has its charm, at least for me, so I can't slate it.

Bits of the Lake District would be really grim if it weren't for the countryside IMO. Penrith, anyone? Even some of the tiny villages have a nasty atmosphere if you're not from there.


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## tuesday's child (Feb 23, 2007)

mauvais said:
			
		

> Bits of the Lake District would be really grim if it weren't for the countryside IMO. Penrith, anyone? Even some of the tiny villages have a nasty atmosphere if you're not from there.



oh god yes.  Keswick and Kendal aren't too unfriendly, but Penrith is just awful, as is Carlile, and Kirky Stephen and Appleby-in-Westmorland are possibly the least friendly places I've ever had the misfortune to visit (bit outside the Lake District I know, but Cumbrian at least).

Somehow the grim nasty small-mindedness of the people seems even worse in the shadow of the almost unbelieveably beautiful landscape.


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## Reg in slippers (Feb 23, 2007)

which brings us back to barrow; pk hit it squarely on the head


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## soulman (Feb 24, 2007)

All of the northern cities are pretty grim, something they share with other cities everywhere...


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## Firky (Feb 24, 2007)

Disagree, there's some mint cities. I like Durham!


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## soulman (Feb 24, 2007)

firky said:
			
		

> Disagree, there's some mint cities. I like Durham!


Mint? Anyway they've all got some redeaming features, but never enough to make city living anything more than grim...


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## pk (Feb 24, 2007)

Reg in slippers said:
			
		

> which brings us back to barrow; pk hit it squarely on the head



I wish I had done - with a small nuclear device.

The only thing that town had going for it was a stock car racetrack, but even that was run by BNP-tattooed inbred cunts who still point at aeroplanes.


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## quiet_rob (Feb 24, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> (Looks out of window for quiet_rob) I'm also in Saltaire



If you see a gormless looking guy with scruffy long dark hair, that's me.


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## jiggajagga (Feb 24, 2007)

Tom A said:
			
		

> Some parts of Stoke-on-Trent are pretty grim



Not going to argue there Tom. A few years ago I was a taxi driver. I went to an estate in the Longton area and was met by a severed cows head in the middle of the road!!! 

Mind you I've lived in Newcastle under Lyme all my life and is indeed Gods country


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## Errol's son (Feb 24, 2007)

Stoke is not too bad, not much worse than Crewe or Wrexham.

Consett is grim, however, or it was when I last went there 10 years ago.


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## longdog (Mar 1, 2007)

Washington. Grim beyond belief.

South Shields and Middlesborough are good contenders too.

East Hull is pretty fucking awful as well to be fair. I'm glad I live in the north west of town.


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## Roadkill (Mar 2, 2007)

firky said:
			
		

> Disagree, there's some mint cities. I like Durham!



Durham is truly lovely.   

Hull?  Well, as doggy says, it has its nasty bits but it's also got some very nice bits, and all of it has a certain unpretentious charm about it.  I still love the place.

Worst places?  Middlesborough and Sunderland spring to mind immediately...


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## janeb (Mar 2, 2007)

Roadkill said:
			
		

> Durham is truly lovely.
> 
> .



Durham is a lovely place ruined by the worse bunch of students I've ever had the misfortune to meet.  I'm sure some of them are lovely people, but the vast majority are upper class fuckwits who ruin my fucking day every time I walk up Saddler Street to my office    

Agree about M'boro and Sunderland mind, I've been to Sunderland city about 4 times since I moved to the NE 6 years ago and every time I've lasted about 2 hours before I have to leave, it's so depressing.  The beach and Rokker (sp?) etc are nice, but the city is awful.


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## Roadkill (Mar 2, 2007)

janeb said:
			
		

> Durham is a lovely place ruined by the worse bunch of students I've ever had the misfortune to meet.  I'm sure some of them are lovely people, but the vast majority are upper class fuckwits who ruin my fucking day every time I walk up Saddler Street to my office



When I was a student at Durham I used to rather enjoy playing up the fact I was comprehensive-schooled and left-wing, and wind up the rahs by selling the _Socialist Worker_ outside Kingsgate.  

Some of 'em are nice people, whatever airs and graces they might put on.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 2, 2007)

soulman said:
			
		

> All of the northern cities are pretty grim, something they share with other cities everywhere...




Yorks great.


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## The Black Hand (Mar 2, 2007)

Sunderlands great, its only cos you lot don't know anybody there. There's always a warm welcome for those in the in crowd...


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## MsShirlLaverne (Mar 2, 2007)

Burnley would be my nomination, with Accrington a close second.


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## oneflewover (Mar 3, 2007)

longdog said:
			
		

> East Hull is pretty fucking awful as well to be fair. I'm glad I live in the north west of town.



Newland ave and Princes ave have turneed out great. The tree sculptures down the avenues are special too.


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## spanglechick (Mar 3, 2007)

i know some will say it doesn't count, but derby gets my vote.  it is the greyest place in the world - even if it does have a thorntons factory shop.

my mate reckons hull - which was her home town - and which is why she's lived in london since 1995


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## mauvais (Mar 3, 2007)

Derby doesn't count, but I went there to see a photo exhibition and as I arrived outside the town hall, all the people around the entrance started fighting and I had to step around someone beating the crap out of someone else on the floor. Lovely place.


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## Roadkill (Mar 4, 2007)

spanglechick said:
			
		

> my mate reckons hull - which was her home town - and which is why she's lived in london since 1995



If I had the slightest opportunity, I'd move back to Hull tomorrow without giving London so much as a backward glance!


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## citygirl (Mar 4, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> (Looks out of window for quiet_rob) I'm also in Saltaire




could introduce you, if you ask me nicely 



WORST(of the places i have experience of, but only have regular contact with bradford & leeds)

HULL
BURNLEY
LEEDS
HUDDERSFIELD
BRADFORD



BEST(places i've known a long time, have seen the greatest changes in, and have the best potential, but probably get the least attention)

KEIGHLEY
HALIFAX

(ETA: the _best_ part of these 2 places by far, are it's people...)


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## Orang Utan (Mar 4, 2007)

Keighley over Leeds? Wow! I went back up to Leeds recently and realised that it is a much nicer city than I remember. I miss all the ginnels!


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## quiet_rob (Mar 4, 2007)

citygirl said:
			
		

> could introduce you, if you ask me nicely
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Woah... there must be something wrong with me... since moving away from Keighley i've been a lot happier!

Although I do agree with you on Halifax.


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## dessiato (Mar 4, 2007)

Got to be Grimsby and Cleethorpes, for dirty streets, crap football club (Up the Mariners! Right up 'em!) crime, vandalism in fact everything that makes life a fucking misery! (Immingham is a shit hole too, and Scunthorpe infact all of N and NE Lincs really) I have never regretted moving from the area


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## longdog (Mar 4, 2007)

oneflewover said:
			
		

> Newland ave and Princes ave have turneed out great. The tree sculptures down the avenues are special too.



Yeah but now there's a tesco at the top of Newland and another at the junction of Spring Bank and Princes Ave.

That's all of the decent little shops up Newland with their backs against the wall hot on the heels of the road being fucked about with for a year driving the shoppers away.

I would blame the city council but as they have just taken over existing retail units (a carpet store and an Iceland) there's fuck all they could've done. Not that the bastards would've done anyway.

There's going to be four tesco's in town once they've finished building the one next to the station, although it wouldn't surprise me if they closed the one on Bev road and left Orchard park / NHE a wasteland for shops. Much as I hate fucking tesco, they are the only place you can get a lot of stuff without either a £2.50 bus trip in to town or a two mile walk.


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## oneflewover (Mar 5, 2007)

@Longdog - You are correct, it's on a knife edge at the moment. Whilst on Chanterlands Ave I spotted a sign in a DVD rental shop saying something like " Please make a rental from here, we are the last independant in the area and without you we will be forced to shut" It could all turn out very sad.


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## longdog (Mar 5, 2007)

<goes off muttering about hell and handcarts>


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## radiator4612 (Mar 11, 2007)

Hull is an economically deprived city as I'm sure you are all aware.I don't know what else you know about it.

Much of the city centres glorious historic architecture (that wasn't blitzed by the luftwaffe) is dutch and flemish inspired. There is also a legacy of industrial victorian warehouses, dock offices and Georgian terraces. 

Hull is also home to a largely well preserved medieval old town that contains a massive amount of listed buildings built by rich merchants in  the 18th and 19th centuries. Without the hated 20th century A63 Castle Street dual carriageway slicing the old town in half, I firmly believe it would be a world heritage site.

This is a tiny selection from around town. All I ask of anybody that reads this is that next time you jump on the bandwagon of scoffing at Kingston-Upon-Hull, please....visit first.

Maritime Museum






Hepworths Arcade





The Penny Bank





Land of Green Ginger










Peaberrys





The Old Post Office





The Punch Hotel





St Charles' Borromeo RC Church





Some of  (by no means exhaustive) the old town








































The Guildhall


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## mozzy (Mar 11, 2007)

^^^ Yes! Ditto! I've lived up here for about 5 years and i think 'Ull is a great city - i have lived in far worse places than Hull. I think the music scene up here is really good considering the size of the place - ok, it's not as flourshing as Leeds and Manc, but for a city the size it is, it has loads to offer, and the people are dead friendly. The architecture up here is lovely - especially seeing how most of Hull was bommed in the 2ndWW - the most bommed city after Coventry i believe. It is also proberbly one of the last places in the UK where you can live fairly comfortably on 7K a year...


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## oneflewover (Mar 12, 2007)

well done mozzy and radiator4612


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## Roadkill (Mar 13, 2007)

Nice photos, radiator4612.  You've made me feel quite homesick!


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Go back and live there, Roadkill!

I'm off to Hull tomorrow. Gotta write an article about it. I'll give it your regards


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## Roadkill (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> Go back and live there, Roadkill!



As I said above, if I had the chance I'd move back there without giving London (which I hate) so much as a backward glance.  Unfortunately, that isn't an option for the forseeable future.

Talking of articles (well, long posts anyway!) on Hull, this thread has a bit of an essay on the city, its history and why I like the place so much.


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## northernhord (Mar 13, 2007)

MsShirlLaverne said:
			
		

> Burnley would be my nomination, with Accrington a close second.



I worked in both of the above places in Dec 06, Accrington is a fuckin shithole, saved only be the fact that mosta the bakers sell butter pies, similarly Burnley is a shithole that has loadsa BNP councillors.

However Salford where I was born has always been a bit grim, even back in the day, now its really fuckin grim, gangsters, guns, smack, shite housing, and traffic congestion from Manc


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

northernhoard said:
			
		

> I worked in both of the above places in Dec 06, Accrington is a fuckin shithole, saved only be the fact that mosta the bakers sell butter pies, similarly Burnley is a shithole that has loadsa BNP councillors.
> 
> However Salford where I was born has always been a bit grim, even back in the day, now its really fuckin grim, gangsters, guns, smack, shite housing, and traffic congestion from Manc



Isn't Salford getting a massive revamp? 

I must try one of these butter pies. I'll nip over the border sometime and get one


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## citygirl (Mar 13, 2007)

"I'll nip over the border sometime"


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## Dissident Junk (Mar 13, 2007)

maximilian ping said:
			
		

> * Halifax, Hartlepool, Harrogate, Huddersfield
> * Wakefield, Warrington, Whitby, Whitehaven, Widnes, Wigan, Workington



Harrogate? Whitby?

You are kidding, no?

And to be fair, the calder valley is a darn site more beautiful than South London.


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

citygirl said:
			
		

> "I'll nip over the border sometime"


 it won;t be too soon tho. Last time i was in that there lancashi*e I got me car vandalised


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## northernhord (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> Isn't Salford getting a massive revamp?
> 
> I must try one of these butter pies. I'll nip over the border sometime and get one



They tried a revamp in the 1980s, promises of jobs and better housing, it ended up that mosta the jobs were the usual low paid service crap, no wonder a lotta local folk ended up workin for gangsters legitimate businesses.

Butter pies - Thee food of the Godz


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## zenie (Mar 13, 2007)

I went to Bradford - it was shit 

I dont really like going 'Up North'  

*Cuddles London and home counties security blanket*


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## sojourner (Mar 13, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> I went to Bradford - it was shit
> 
> I dont really like going 'Up North'
> 
> *Cuddles London and home counties security blanket*


Fuck off then, bloody southern jessie  

I love the North.  All of it.  It's all BRILLIANT! And better than that london 

Nerr


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Go Soj! Go Soj!


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

northernhoard said:
			
		

> They tried a revamp in the 1980s, promises of jobs and better housing, it ended up that mosta the jobs were *the usual low paid service crap*,


 they're sticking the BBC there now aren;t they? I think the idea is that you get a quality empoyer like that in and you get moe spinoffs in creative businesses etc. That's the theory anyway


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## cyberfairy (Mar 13, 2007)

I want to do a Grimmest place down south thread but don't know what forum it would go in


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## Dissident Junk (Mar 13, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> I went to Bradford - it was shit
> 
> I dont really like going 'Up North'
> 
> *Cuddles London and home counties security blanket*



To be fair, parts of bradford are awful.

I think the issue is that many of the worse Northern cities were built to be grand thriving Victorian economic centres of commerce, like transplanting the City of London into another part of the country. 

Of course, now there's no industry. So these towns and cities can seem a bit desolate (the buildings are too high, the streets too wide, too much wind, not enough sky) because there is no longer the bustle to match the place. Instead you feel swamped.

Another problem is that Northern towns and cities can suffer badly from brownfield sites. They knocked down mills and warehouses, then just left the brownfield, so on driving into a city, it looks derelict (Manchester suffers from this pretty badly).

Aye, we needed bloody devolution really. Can't be doing with these Northern policy changes every couple of minutes from a central government that know nothing about the region. 

The North really needs a 25 year plan and the will to carry it out, not a cosmetic refurbishment of Salford that involves designer flats and a fancy theatre.


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## Dissident Junk (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> they're sticking the BBC there now aren;t they? I think the idea is that you get a quality empoyer like that in and you get moe spinoffs in creative businesses etc. That's the theory anyway



Alas, the Beeb are holding the relocation over the goverment's heads. They say if they don't get the license fee increase, they won't open Salford.

Naturally, they know the government wants them to create jobs in Manchester for regeneration reasons. 

So they are being political about it.

Bastards.


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> To be fair, parts of bradford are awful.


 And it also has the densest concentration of listed buildings in the UK, or somesuch, or so I was told recently.  

And there's about 1.5bn of investment going into the city centre


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> The North really needs *a 25 year plan *and the will to carry it out, not a cosmetic refurbishment of Salford that involves designer flats and a fancy theatre.


 We'll get that when we get communism. For now the model is public sector masterplanning with private sector investment on specific projects


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## northernhord (Mar 13, 2007)

zenie said:
			
		

> I went to Bradford - it was shit
> 
> I dont really like going 'Up North'
> 
> *Cuddles London and home counties security blanket*



Manchester is like London, that's why I stay away from the place


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## Dissident Junk (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> And it also has the densest concentration of listed buildings in the UK, or somesuch, or so I was told recently.
> 
> And there's about 1.5bn of investment going into the city centre



But they do this periodically, don't they? They said the the National Photography Museum (or whatever it is called now. _See. See. Example of Northern 'if we change the name, everything will get better' phenomenon there _) would regenerate the centre. But nothing really happened.  

What the place really needs is some decent industry. Something that can generate wealth and put money in people's pockets, rather than thinking everything will be okay if we just paint this fence and redo the council logo - _ I know, I know. Lets have an oak tree and say 'Bradford: weaving the future together. Geddit? Weaving. Because we were a textile town, but now we are looking to the future. Together. Because we value 'diversiteh'._ 

Bloody service industries.  

Bloody government.

Bloody idiots.


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## northernhord (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> they're sticking the BBC there now aren;t they? I think the idea is that you get a quality empoyer like that in and you get moe spinoffs in creative businesses etc. That's the theory anyway



Yeah, Salford has heard all this theory before


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> But they do this periodically, don't they? They said the the National Photography Museum (or whatever it is called now. _See. See. Example of Northern 'if we change the name, everything will get better' phenomenon there _) would regenerate the centre. But nothing really happened.
> 
> What the place really needs is some decent industry. Something that can generate wealth and put money in people's pockets, rather than thinking everything will be okay if we just paint this fence and redo the council logo - _ I know, I know. Lets have an oak tree and say 'Bradford: weaving the future together. Geddit? Weaving. Because we were a textile town, but now we are looking to the future. Together. Because we value 'diversiteh'._
> 
> ...


 There's no way the Uk can do manufacturing again except as the inventors/designers on high-tech products with sub-contracting of physical production abroad. We just can't compete on labour costs.

There's about 1/2 million sq ft of offices planned for bradford city centre, which is a lot, and quite a bit more than just the NMFPT.


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## Appassionata (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> And it also has the densest concentration of listed buildings in the UK, or somesuch, or so I was told recently.



And there's about 1.5bn of investment going into the city centre[/QUOTE]

But how much will it really benefit local people, though? My mum lives in Bradford; the last time I was up there I couldn't believe how much of the city centre had been demolished, but the plan appears to be for some kind of upmarket "lifestyle" nonsense like you see elsewhere. But Bradford hasn't even got an economy which rivals Leeds, never mind London's, so who will be able to afford this lifestyle on the kind of wages people earn up there? Maybe I'm getting out of touch, but I can't see the point in opening lots of upmarket shops in a city with a pound shop economy.


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## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Appassionata said:
			
		

> But how much will it really benefit local people, though? My mum lives in Bradford; the last time I was up there I couldn't believe how much of the city centre had been demolished, but the plan appears to be for some kind of upmarket "lifestyle" nonsense like you see elsewhere. But Bradford hasn't even got an economy which rivals Leeds, never mind London's, so who will be able to afford this lifestyle on the kind of wages people earn up there? Maybe I'm getting out of touch, but I can't see the point in opening lots of upmarket shops in a city with a pound shop economy.



there is no plan for upmarket shops. there are some city centre flats in the offing but, the key things are that there will be 500,000 sq ft of offices being built, mostly where the cop shop and courts are now, as well as the odeon, and the aim is to attract businesses and create a central business district where there isn't one now. Then there is the new shopping centre, which it is hoped will help attract those businesses and their employees to Bfd and in general create a virtuous circle, IE, businesses come to bfd and can attract employees because their are good transport links and decent shops etc to go to. As you build up a critical mass of ths type then other businesses are in turn attracted and you get more shps, restaurants etc to serve those employees etc

Whether it will come off, I don't know. But I also don't see any other way within the constraints of the current economy, especially given that looking back to manufacturing is a dead duck idea


----------



## Dissident Junk (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> There's no way the Uk can do manufacturing again except as the inventors/designers on high-tech products with sub-contracting of physical production abroad. We just can't compete on labour costs.
> 
> There's about 1/2 million sq ft of offices planned for bradford city centre, which is a lot, and quite a bit more than just the NMFPT.



But who is going to move into those offices? And how will those offices help the majority of the most deprived population that can not do white collar jobs?

And, you've got to be honest, Spion, there's no bloody jobs around here at all, unless you are a cleaner or an HGV driver. Nothing's coming out of Manchester  these days; your best hope is Leeds. The public sector saves the North.

I understand what you are saying about manufacturing, but there are other industries apart from heavy labour intensive manufacturing. We need to make some stuff. Make some product. Sell it. It doesn't have to be a washing machine. Or a can of paint.  

The reliance on service industries in the North is so problematic, particularly the call centre industry (which are more or less, mills for the 21st century). I think that government needs to stop chasing fariries and get on with some governing and planning. The situation can't really continue for the next fifty years; we are storing up massive problems for the future.


----------



## sojourner (Mar 13, 2007)

cyberfairy said:
			
		

> I want to do a Grimmest place down south thread but don't know what forum it would go in


General, obviously, cos it's all shit


----------



## sojourner (Mar 13, 2007)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> But who is going to move into those offices? And how will those offices help the majority of the most deprived population that can not do white collar jobs?
> 
> And, you've got to be honest, Spion, there's no bloody jobs around here at all, unless you are a cleaner or an HGV driver. Nothing's coming out of Manchester  these days; your best hope is Leeds. The public sector saves the North.


Small businesses, that's who.  There's been and continues to be an increase in the amount of people starting their own businesses.  That's why there's been an increase in the amount of serviced office Business Centres being built.  This is my area, I've seen the research, it's why we are expanding cos the market is there and growing


----------



## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

cyberfairy said:
			
		

> I want to do a Grimmest place down south thread but don't know what forum it would go in



Anywhere in the SE outside central London. Shitholes, populated by arseholes, and no redeeming features in terms of countryside etc


----------



## Appassionata (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> Whether it will come off, I don't know. But I also don't see any other way within the constraints of the current economy, especially given that looking back to manufacturing is a dead duck idea



I stand corrected. But I'm still a bit pessimistic. They still haven't done anything around the old fish market, have they? And those buildings were demolished years ago, iirc. 

Many people don't realise that Bradford was so important 150 years ago, that it was even suggested that it should have been made the capital city. Imagine how different things could have been... we could be sitting here talking about stuck-up overpaid poncey Northerners instead!


----------



## Appassionata (Mar 13, 2007)

cyberfairy said:
			
		

> I want to do a Grimmest place down south



the Medway Towns for starters.


----------



## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Appassionata said:
			
		

> Many people don't realise that Bradford was so important 150 years ago, that it was even suggested that it should have been made the capital city. Imagine how different things could have been... we could be sitting here talking about stuck-up overpaid poncey Northerners instead!


 Bradford made its living on textiles and engineering and most of that disappeared, what 15-30 years ago? All the old manufacturing centres have to reorient to a new way of slotting into the world economy and to expect that to have happened only a decade or so at minimum after its old mainstay collapsed is being a bit impatient I think


----------



## Dissident Junk (Mar 13, 2007)

sojourner said:
			
		

> Small businesses, that's who.  There's been and continues to be an increase in the amount of people starting their own businesses.  That's why there's been an increase in the amount of serviced office Business Centres being built.  This is my area, I've seen the research, it's why we are expanding cos the market is there and growing



I hope so. I really do.

I can see working in Leeds, but I am sceptical about Bradford, particularly since some people I know got so desparate a couple of years ago, they moved their businesses to Leeds because people in Bradford just don't buy anything. They even did a piece about it on Radio 4, concentrating on the young 2nd/3rd generation Asian entrepreneurs that can't make their SMEs work in their home town, so they move their businesses and families to Leeds where a pool of demand for products exists. 

I realise I'm sounding apocalyptic again, so I am going to shut up now. 

_Must stop being a Chicken Little. Must stop being a Chicken Little._


----------



## northernhord (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> Anywhere in the SE outside central London. Shitholes, populated by arseholes, and no redeeming features in terms of countryside etc



hehehe


----------



## Pieface (Mar 13, 2007)

Errol's son said:
			
		

> Consett is grim, however, or it was when I last went there 10 years ago.



Yes - it's the little mining towns left high and dry on tops of hills with closed collieries that are the most fucking depressing imo.  A settlement with the reason it was there removed just sucks the life out of it - my Nan's sister lived in Consett and my nan lives in Stanley - fucking horrible places, especially for the young.


----------



## sojourner (Mar 13, 2007)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> I hope so. I really do.
> 
> I can see working in Leeds, but I am sceptical about Bradford, particularly since some people I know got so desparate a couple of years ago, they moved their businesses to Leeds because people in Bradford just don't buy anything. They even did a piece about it on Radio 4, concentrating on the young 2nd/3rd generation Asian entrepreneurs that can't make their SMEs work in their home town, so they move their businesses and families to Leeds where a pool of demand for products exists.
> 
> ...


Well we were going to set up in Accrington but a deal fell through on the property, but we are also looking at a site in Blackburn.  The small business funding in these places helps our tenants enormously, and the market is there

Haven't looked at Bradford mind...


----------



## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> But who is going to move into those offices?


 The businesses that want to pay GBP15 per sq ft for top quality offices rather than the 25 per sq ft they have to pay in Leeds. At present Bfd has no top quality office space in the city centre. The plans I'm talking about will provide that




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> And how will those offices help the majority of the most deprived population that can not do white collar jobs?


 If you build 1million sq ft of offices and shops and they take off, there will be more jobs of all levels. Also at present vast numbers of bradfordians go to Leeds to work. There's no shortage of potential office staff here




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> And, you've got to be honest, Spion, there's no bloody jobs around here at all, unless you are a cleaner or an HGV driver.


 No, that's just pessimistic nonsense, unless cleaning or driving is all one can do





			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying about manufacturing, but there are other industries apart from heavy labour intensive manufacturing. We need to make some stuff. Make some product. Sell it. It doesn't have to be a washing machine. Or a can of paint.


 Like what then?




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> The reliance on service industries in the North is so problematic, particularly the call centre industry (which are more or less, mills for the 21st century).


 Why is it? But it's not as if that's all there is anyway. Leeds and the M62 corridor has lots of other types of business




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> I think that government needs to stop chasing fariries and get on with some governing and planning.


 What do you expect the government could do? It funds local development agencies that masterplan regeneration projects that provide the guidelines for private business to invest in particular developments. Within capitalism I don't see how else things could work, except through massive state-funded projects, but they're out of fashion these days.

believe me, I'd collectivise capitalist property and string the bosses up by their guts tomorrow but seeing as that's not likely to happen I can't see any other way that cities like Bradford can get anywhere other than slotting into the new ways the economy works


----------



## Dissident Junk (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> The businesses that want to pay GBP15 per sq ft for top quality offices rather than the 25 per sq ft they have to pay in Leeds. At present Bfd has no top quality office space in the city centre. The plans I'm talking about will provide that



Okay. We'll see. But I do not know where these businesses will come from particularly. And there is a significant amount of new commercial property in Leeds without tenants. There has been somewhat of an overdevelopment of Leeds in the last three years, and prices have dropped. 




			
				Spion said:
			
		

> No, that's just pessimistic nonsense, unless cleaning or driving is all one can do



Actually it is not that pessimistic. Nor is it nonsensical. I know, because I am looking for work.   There's not much above minimum wage stuff around at all.  



> Why is it? But it's not as if that's all there is anyway. Leeds and the M62 corridor has lots of other types of business.



There's not that much at all. I know a 45-year-old bank manager with a family made redundant a year ago; he still can't find a job in West Yorkshire/Manchester, even though he's dropped his salary expectations to 21K a year. 400 people applied for six posts at a new regional quango office in Wakefield. A friend of mine lost her job at the Halifax (the main employer in the Calder Valley) and has had to retrain as a physio becasue she couldn't find any work.

Even my JSA advisor   admits there is nothing coming out of Manchester (she used to be in IT, but couldn't find work), Halifax or Bradford.  The only hope is Leeds.



> What do you expect the government could do? It funds local development agencies that masterplan regeneration projects that provide the guidelines for private business to invest in particular developments. Within capitalism I don't see how else things could work, except through massive state-funded projects, but they're out of fashion these days.



You aren't trying to argue that Yorkshire Forward does anything, are you?  They are useless. I know, I've reported on their roundtables.

The thing is investing in developments that will attract established companies will not necessarily provoke the dynamism needed to jumpstart regeneration and make changes to people's lives. It's just moving checkers around the board. What maybe needed is to encourage new enterprises to seed and grow. Here, I think government regulation does gets in the way.

For example, the chap who owns the organic mix factory up the road from me struggles to grow because he can't negiotiate the cost of the legislative reqirements for employing more than five workers with the flow of his orders. He's actually turning stuff down, and he can't really cope. But the jump is too expensive, and that jump is the cost of government employment regulation. Now I am not anti-worker's rights whatsoever, but I find shit like this offensive when the public sector runs 364 day contracts on temp workers to avoid giving them security and rights. 

Likewise, there's a problem with running an SMEs like a local shop. The latest legislation over alchohol sales and licenses has cost some local corner shop owners over £2K.  

Seed opportunities for ordinary people have been victims of regulation. When I was little, my mum and a few other young mothers ran a catering company. They got orders to cater for small events, made the food in their kitchens, and provided the service at the event. They made money and they could stay at home while their kids were small.

You cannot do this anymore. It's illegal. I can't make a pie in my kitchen and sell it to the woman next door. 

It worries me that we still seem to be moving into a scenerio where most service and product provision comes from big multinationals, with some sole traders and individual contractors (who are a kind of short term outsourced employee). There's no ownership of what you create . . . . 

 . . . and I am going to stop right here, because this is a fruits of labour point and sounds Marxist.


----------



## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> Okay. We'll see. But I do not know where these businesses will come from particularly. And there is a significant amount of new commercial property in Leeds without tenants. There has been somewhat of an overdevelopment of Leeds in the last three years, and prices have dropped.


 Leeds shifts about 1 million sq ft of grade A office space a year, and, as I say, some of those businesses will want to move to a place like Bfd where rents are GBP10 per sq ft lower. A slight shortage of office space is actually predicted for Leeds for the coming 18 months and rents have risen every year for at least the last 5-8. Where do you get your figures from?




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> You aren't trying to argue that Yorkshire Forward does anything, are you?  They are useless. I know, I've reported on their roundtables.


 They have spent tens/hundreds of millions buying land and gettign it ready for the private sector to invest in. What have they failed in exactly?




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> The thing is investing in developments that will attract established companies will not necessarily provoke the dynamism needed to jumpstart regeneration and make changes to people's lives. It's just moving checkers around the board.


 Why? I don't understand your thinking.




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> Likewise, there's a problem with running an SMEs like a local shop. The latest legislation over alchohol sales and licenses has cost some local corner shop owners over £2K.


 What legislation is this?




			
				Dissident Junk said:
			
		

> Seed opportunities for ordinary people have been victims of regulation. When I was little, my mum and a few other young mothers ran a catering company. They got orders to cater for small events, made the food in their kitchens, and provided the service at the event. They made money and they could stay at home while their kids were small.
> 
> You cannot do this anymore. It's illegal. I can't make a pie in my kitchen and sell it to the woman next door.


 That's right. You have to attend a food safety course. My ma in law did it. it cost her little or nothing and she was able to continue baking in her kitchen and sell at car boots. I don't see that as an onerous piece of regulation.

You're telling me about lots of negatives but what are your solutions?


----------



## northernhord (Mar 13, 2007)

^ are you two surveyers or land agents


----------



## Spion (Mar 13, 2007)

northernhoard said:
			
		

> ^ are you two surveyers or land agents


 I write about this shite, among other things, for a living.


----------



## northernhord (Mar 13, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> I write about this shite, among other things, for a living.



Would have any contacts about renting agricultural land an Lancs?


----------



## Spion (Mar 14, 2007)

northernhoard said:
			
		

> Would have any contacts about renting agricultural land an Lancs?


 Nope, that side o the pennines is a mystery to me  

Why not just ring up some agents who deal in that kinda stuff? It's in their interests to market their product


----------



## northernhord (Mar 14, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> Nope, that side o the pennines is a mystery to me
> 
> Why not just ring up some agents who deal in that kinda stuff? It's in their interests to market their product




Will do mate, cheerz


----------



## longdog (Mar 15, 2007)

Appassionata said:
			
		

> the Medway Towns for starters.



Being from there I have to say your not wrong 

But to describe the whole of SE England as a shithole isn't fair. The Weald and the Downs are beautiful and beat anything the north has to offer.

I don't think the north has even heard of trees let alone know what they look like


----------



## northernhord (Mar 15, 2007)

longdog said:
			
		

> Being from there I have to say your not wrong
> 
> But to describe the whole of SE England as a shithole isn't fair. The Weald and the Downs are beautiful and beat anything the north has to offer.
> 
> I don't think the north has even heard of trees let alone know what they look like



Ahem, Lake District


----------



## oneflewover (Mar 16, 2007)

longdog said:
			
		

> and the Downs are beautiful and beat anything the north has to offer.



One of Englands best kept secrets, I'll raise your Downs with the Yorkshire Wolds


----------



## oneflewover (Mar 16, 2007)

Spion said:
			
		

> Go back and live there, Roadkill!
> 
> I'm off to Hull tomorrow. Gotta write an article about it. I'll give it your regards



So how did your trip turn out? Did you get a good guide?


----------



## Spion (Mar 16, 2007)

oneflewover said:
			
		

> So how did your trip turn out? Did you get a good guide?


 It was a nice day weather wise and I got to meet a number of people involved in development there so got a good idea what's going on. I find it interesting to see where places like Hull are heading after the massive changes in their economies over recent decades


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 16, 2007)

Hull
Blyth
Jarrow/Hebburn
Washington New Town
Sunderland
Middlesbrough
Barnsley


----------



## Tokyo (Mar 22, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Barnsley



Barnsley?  Next to Rotherham, it shines.

But Scunthorpe trumps either for grimness.


----------



## nino_savatte (Mar 22, 2007)

Tokyo said:
			
		

> Barnsley?  Next to Rotherham, it shines.
> 
> But Scunthorpe trumps either for grimness.



I suppose if you put it like that....


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 31, 2007)

It's not the 'proper' north but Corby deserves a mention as one of the grimmest shitholes to ever masquerade as a place of residence.

Truly horrible town


----------



## mozzy (Apr 2, 2007)

DotCommunist said:
			
		

> It's not the 'proper' north but Corby deserves a mention as one of the grimmest shitholes to ever masquerade as a place of residence.
> 
> Truly horrible town



I always thought Corby was in the South meself, as it's near Northampton and Leicster.... 

Do agree though, used to live near there myself a long, long time ago...People wonder why I love Hull so much, Ha! Ha! Try living in Corby!! It is a South town though...


----------



## Belushi (Apr 2, 2007)

mozzy said:
			
		

> I always thought Corby was in the South meself, as it's near Northampton and Leicster....
> 
> Do agree though, used to live near there myself a long, long time ago...People wonder why I love Hull so much, Ha! Ha! Try living in Corby!! It is a South town though...



Its in the Midlands, an astonishingly awful place though.


----------



## soam (Apr 4, 2007)

Barnsley is the Tuscany of the north....or so reckons Will Alsop


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 5, 2007)

Did I mention Ashton-under-Lyne? Proper shitehole.


----------



## Fez909 (Apr 6, 2007)

Hmmm. Went back to Middlesbrough recently and I was pleasantly surprised. I've only been away for two years or so, but in that time it's looking and seeming a lot better. Got a new posh art gallery, too, which was really strange being in 'boro!

*requests a reconsideration by the large number of people who've put Middlesbrough in their lists*


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 6, 2007)

Fez909 said:
			
		

> Hmmm. Went back to Middlesbrough recently and I was pleasantly surprised. I've only been away for two years or so, but in that time it's looking and seeming a lot better. Got a new posh art gallery, too, which was really strange being in 'boro!
> 
> *requests a reconsideration by the large number of people who've put Middlesbrough in their lists*



Do they still have the big brother style security system in the town centre?


----------



## Fez909 (Apr 6, 2007)

nino_savatte said:
			
		

> Do they still have the big brother style security system in the town centre?



Do you mean the cameras that shout at you? Or walls to stop people leaving?


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 6, 2007)

Fez909 said:
			
		

> Do you mean the cameras that shout at you? Or walls to stop people leaving?



The cameras that shout at you.


----------



## Fez909 (Apr 6, 2007)

Yep! They're going nationwide soon (I didn't realise they weren't!)

Link

Just read the link properly and it seems slightly different from my experiences in Middlesbrough - there, they were just for litter dropping, I think.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 6, 2007)

Fez909 said:
			
		

> Yep! They're going nationwide soon (I didn't realise they weren't!)
> 
> Link
> 
> Just read the link properly and it seems slightly different from my experiences in Middlesbrough - there, they were just for litter dropping, I think.



Hallelujah! The police state has arrived.


----------



## Dunkpwp (Apr 19, 2013)

I live and work from home in Darlington and the town center, just like most I see is in rapid decline. Birth place of the railways, epi-centre of the industrial revolution, now the place is dying and and there is dog shit everywhere you go


----------



## marty21 (Apr 19, 2013)

Epic bump, I was 40 fucking 2 when this was last posted on.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> It's not the 'proper' north but Corby deserves a mention as one of the grimmest shitholes to ever masquerade as a place of residence.
> 
> Truly horrible town


And then you moved there


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2013)

killer b said:


> And then you moved there


 

House prices plummeted as I announced I would be taking up residence


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2013)

I took froggy to the Corby museum as well, located in the old village and staffed by proper wifies and enthusiasts. It was fun.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I took froggy to the Corby museum as well, located in the old village and staffed by proper wifies and enthusiasts. It was fun.


"Take me somewhere filthy" etc


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2013)

Not as good as Kettring museum though. I took miss there as well. Kettering museum has a full set of restored civil war gear behind a glass case. I'm guessing that cast iron ws big at that period because the breastplate looks like a cookpot gone wrong


----------



## neonwilderness (Apr 19, 2013)

Dunkpwp said:


> I live and work from home in Darlington and the town center, just like most I see is in rapid decline. Birth place of the railways, epi-centre of the industrial revolution, now the place is dying and and there is dog shit everywhere you go


At least it's not Middlesborough though


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I took froggy to the Corby museum as well, located in the old village and staffed by proper wifies and enthusiasts. It was fun.


Is it true that it is full of Scotch?


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 20, 2013)

That is a bump and a half!  Reading back over the thread, I've just noticed this old exchange:



Spion said:


> Go back and live there, Roadkill!
> 
> I'm off to Hull tomorrow. Gotta write an article about it. I'll give it your regards


 


Roadkill said:


> As I said above, if I had the chance I'd move back there without giving London (which I hate) so much as a backward glance. Unfortunately, that isn't an option for the forseeable future.
> 
> Talking of articles (well, long posts anyway!) on Hull, this thread has a bit of an essay on the city, its history and why I like the place so much.


 
In the end, it did become an option and I moved back to Hull last summer.  Still love the ol' place.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 26, 2013)

Rotherham.

i've only been there once, about 2007, and every single adult i saw had a mullet and tatoos on their hands. Blackpool is in the running - infact its only my mullet hatred that put Rotherham above (below?) it - its the most awful, soul-destroying, dog-shit strewn dump you could have the misfortune to find yourself. Morecombe, which is utterly dead, pales into insignificance beside this temple to worthless existance.


----------



## cyberfairy (Apr 26, 2013)

kebabking said:


> Rotherham.
> 
> i've only been there once, about 2007, and every single adult i saw had a mullet and tatoos on their hands. Blackpool is in the running - infact its only my mullet hatred that put Rotherham above (below?) it - its the most awful, soul-destroying, dog-shit strewn dump you could have the misfortune to find yourself. Morecombe, which is utterly dead, pales into insignificance beside this temple to worthless existance.


It's the miles of down at heel hill-less suburbia that surrounds it that makes it extra-appalling. Only place I have spent over half an hour looking for somewhere that sold soup.


----------



## seeformiles (Apr 26, 2013)

kebabking said:


> Rotherham.
> 
> i've only been there once, about 2007, and every single adult i saw had a mullet and tatoos on their hands. Blackpool is in the running - infact its only my mullet hatred that put Rotherham above (below?) it - its the most awful, soul-destroying, dog-shit strewn dump you could have the misfortune to find yourself. Morecombe, which is utterly dead, pales into insignificance beside this temple to worthless existance.


 
Doncaster has a similar air of desperation about it.


----------



## killer b (Apr 26, 2013)

i'm in rochdale today. nice town hall, but the rest of the town centre is quite depressing. pawnbrokers, charity shops and low-end goods seem to be the only shops left.


----------



## Pingu (Apr 26, 2013)

has skelmersdale been mentioned yet?


----------



## Maggot (Apr 26, 2013)

Pingu said:


> has skelmersdale been mentioned yet?


The second word in this thread.


----------



## belboid (Apr 26, 2013)

Donny & Rotherham are alright.  Well, they have alright parts anyway.

Bizarrely, I would have to say...pk was right!  Barrow-in-Furness.  An absolute shithole.


----------



## mauvais (Apr 26, 2013)

Five pages, six years, and still no mention of this?


----------



## Tom A (Apr 30, 2013)

mauvais said:


> Five pages, six years, and still no mention of this?



Great minds think alike


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 30, 2013)

I was on a bus going through Carlisle once and I think a little piece of my soul died . It was a horrible lonely feeling .


----------



## Nice one (Apr 30, 2013)




----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 30, 2013)

Grimbergen: northern Belgium.


----------



## belboid (Apr 30, 2013)

Nice one said:


>




I'll let you off with that, but only cos they're from Sheffield.

You clearly meant to post


----------



## seeformiles (May 3, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I was on a bus going through Carlisle once and I think a little piece of my soul died . It was a horrible lonely feeling .


 
Carlisle is pretty grim. There used to be a 2 hour stop there if catching the coach from Leeds to Belfast - felt like an eternity..


----------



## Tankus (May 3, 2013)

Bradford for me too ......but I did have a very good curry at Akbars on the Leeds road , but not good enough to make me go back for the rest of it.

Blaenau Ffestiniog ...in the rain (which it has done every time that I've been there).........everything is grey...even the people........


----------



## kazza007 (May 3, 2013)

Mansfield
Barnsley
Rotherham & 'donny' are pretty dire too
Stoke on Trent 
Many of the old mining villages are grim around Nottinghamshire and Yorkshire 

Going into these places is like going into a time warp. Full of red neck, mulleted types as mentioned, very provincial, extremely backward, possibly quite racist and homophobic, definitely narrow minded and uncosmoplitan


----------



## dessiato (May 3, 2013)

N E Lincs, which is Grimsby, Cleethorpes and Immingham. They are really unattractive places to live for many. High crime, high unemployment, very little to look forward to for most who live in the area. If you have money there are some nice places outside the area to visit, but N E Lincs itself is pretty dire.


----------



## The Octagon (May 3, 2013)

My family's from Barnsley, I've had loads of good nights out in the town centre, friendly as fuck.

The surrounding villages and towns do have a desolated 'post-mining' feel though  Weird choice of haircuts too I've noticed


----------



## The Octagon (May 3, 2013)

Oh, and anything below Sheffield is not 'the North', so stop it


----------



## kazza007 (May 3, 2013)

Stoke is north. They say 'duck' as much as they do in Mansfield


----------



## The Octagon (May 3, 2013)

Mansfield isn't North either, tis the god-forsaken Midlands 

My parents live in Stoke now, they consider themselves 'down south'. Mind you, they're in the nice bit near Cheadle, the centre of Stoke looks rubbish everytime I've caught the train to visit.

Anyway, in the spirit of the thread - Bradford or Grimsby were pretty depressing


----------



## Dillinger4 (May 3, 2013)

Knutsford


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## Shirl (May 3, 2013)

Tankus said:


> Bradford for me too ......but I did have a very good curry at Akbars on the Leeds road , but not good enough to make me go back for the rest of it.


I would agree about Bradford except that like many northern towns it's got some stunning countryside close by. I think that the moors and the pennines help to make the grim northern towns a bit less grim.


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## laptop (May 3, 2013)

The Octagon said:


> Mansfield isn't North either, tis the god-forsaken Midlands


 
See: it's (a) Ooop North from that London; and (b) _even grimmer_ because it's not _properly_ North.

Plus, as noted above, nothing resembling Heights, still less Proper Heights on which you can find a good Wuther.

Thank you for your support for my nomination


----------



## spawnofsatan (May 3, 2013)

kazza007 said:


> Mansfield
> Barnsley
> Rotherham & 'donny' are pretty dire too
> Stoke on Trent
> ...


 
Living in a pit village in south Notts for the past 43 years, its not us who are coming across as narrow minded...


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## lizzieloo (May 3, 2013)

kazza007 said:


> Stoke is north. They say 'duck' as much as they do in Mansfield


 
They say duck in Nuneaton, that's not the North


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## kazza007 (May 3, 2013)

Wannabe northerners? Worked in Nuneaton and never heard it mentioned. It's primarily a Mansfield, chesterfield, stoke saying, look it up.

Re: me being judgemental. Look at the title of the fucking thread and its replies.


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## lizzieloo (May 3, 2013)

kazza007 said:


> Wannabe northerners? Worked in Nuneaton and never heard it mentioned. It's primarily a Mansfield, chesterfield, stoke saying, look it up.
> 
> Re: me being judgemental. Look at the title of the fucking thread and its replies.


 
I was brought up there. Fuck you.


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## Frances Lengel (May 4, 2013)

killer b said:


> i'm in rochdale today. nice town hall, but the rest of the town centre is quite depressing. pawnbrokers, charity shops and low-end goods seem to be the only shops left.


 
Rochdale town centre is entirely bleak - Far worse than comparable places like Oldham or Ashton.


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## _angel_ (May 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> Bradford for me too ......but I did have a very good curry at Akbars on the Leeds road , but not good enough to make me go back for the rest of it.
> 
> Blaenau Ffestiniog ...in the rain (which it has done every time that I've been there).........everything is grey...even the people........





kazza007 said:


> Mansfield
> Barnsley
> Rotherham & 'donny' are pretty dire too
> Stoke on Trent
> ...


Fuck you both


kazza007 said:


> Stoke is north. They say 'duck' as much as they do in Mansfield


Stoke is midlands you total moron.


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## Roadkill (May 5, 2013)

I'm sitting in a great bar on a pretty Victorian street, drinking superb beer and listening to a brilliant local jazz band, and wondering which of the many local bars and restaurants to head to when this finishes. Hull? if you think it's grim you don't know it. This is the finest city in England, so far as I'm  concerned!


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## Epico (May 5, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> I'm sitting in a great bar on a pretty Victorian street, drinking superb beer and listening to a brilliant local jazz band, and wondering which of the many local bars and restaurants to head to when this finishes. Hull? if you think it's grim you don't know it. This is the finest city in England, so far as I'm  concerned!



This post bought to you by the Hull Tourist Board, and real ale.


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## Roadkill (May 5, 2013)

Epico said:


> This post bought to you by the Hull Tourist Board, and real ale.


 


Me and a mate who works for the city museums service reckon its slogan ought to be 'Come to Hull - its better than you think'!


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## grubby local (May 5, 2013)

I have to post a vote for my home town Stockport. Nasty, violent and soulless. There's quite a few on the same grim tip circling Manchester. I think top would be Matlock. I was truly shocked and scared when I passed through there but that was 20-odd years ago. Seriously doubt it has changed. I remember thinking it was stuck in a time warp, so it might actually be quite 1990s now.
gx


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## Orang Utan (May 5, 2013)

I visited Lancaster on Saturday to buy some trainers. It is nowhere near as grim as I thought it would be.
It has shit shops, pubs and restaurants, but the buildings are great


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## friedaweed (May 8, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> Knutsford


Naaa not the Knutsford I see. Full of flash wankers with big houses and sports cars. It's got some grim estates but it's small fry grimness to say it's neighbors like Windsford, Crewe


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## mr steev (May 8, 2013)

kazza007 said:


> Wannabe northerners? Worked in Nuneaton and never heard it mentioned. It's primarily a Mansfield, chesterfield, stoke saying, look it up.


 
It's primarily a Nottingham saying tbh. 
I was born in Nuneaton too and can testify to it's usage there. It's also quite common in Leicester and Derby


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## killer b (May 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I visited Lancaster on Saturday to buy some trainers. It is nowhere near as grim as I thought it would be.
> It has shit shops, pubs and restaurants, but the buildings are great


lancaster is a lovely town. it's not too bad for shops, pubs and restaurants - just need to know where to go...


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## Fruitloop (May 8, 2013)

I would go for Crewe, with an honourable mention for Scarborough.

How can anyone think York is grim


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## killer b (May 8, 2013)

grubby local said:


> I have to post a vote for my home town Stockport. Nasty, violent and soulless. There's quite a few on the same grim tip circling Manchester. I think top would be Matlock. I was truly shocked and scared when I passed through there but that was 20-odd years ago. Seriously doubt it has changed. I remember thinking it was stuck in a time warp, so it might actually be quite 1990s now.
> gx


matlock is too small to be truly grim, but in general I agree the manchester satelite towns are pretty much the definition of grim. at least stockport has the hat museum though. rochdale is so dead even macdonalds abandoned it.


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## belboid (May 8, 2013)

Fruitloop said:


> I would go for Crewe, with an honourable mention for Scarborough.
> 
> How can anyone think York is grim


How can anyone mention Scarborough, when the much much grimmer Bridlington is just down the road


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## _angel_ (May 8, 2013)

Fruitloop said:


> I would go for Crewe, with an honourable mention for Scarborough.
> 
> How can anyone think York is grim


how in earth can you think Scarboro is grim. Yeah there's some rough bits but it was lovely when we got back from there last week.


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## Fruitloop (May 8, 2013)

I dunno, I spent quality time in the Scarboro job centre and my memories of the place are not ones to be treasured. If I want seaside and chips (and goffs) I'd rather go to Whitby.


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## Dillinger4 (May 8, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> Naaa not the Knutsford I see. Full of flash wankers with big houses and sports cars. It's got some grim estates but it's small fry grimness to say it's neighbors like Windsford, Crewe


 
no you are wrong, there is something incredibly grim about all those flash wankers with big houses and sports cars. I can deal with places like Stoke and Crewe and loads of other places mentioned on this thread (but not all), but I can't deal with Knutsford. I can imagine what kind of life you have to live to be one of them and it makes me fucking sick


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## Dillinger4 (May 8, 2013)

killer b said:


> matlock is too small to be truly grim, but in general I agree the manchester satelite towns are pretty much the definition of grim. at least stockport has the hat museum though. rochdale is so dead even macdonalds abandoned it.


 
For a laugh I looked at the entry for Wigan on wikitravel. It is surprisingly extensive but at the bottom there is a section called 'Stay Safe' which says this:



> Wigan is statistically the safest area of Greater Manchester however being part of a large city region it has areas best to be avoided. The Norley Hall, Marsh Green and Worsley Hall estates in the west of the town can be intimidating with alot of youth trouble. Similarly areas east such as Ince, Scholes, Hag Fold, Higher Folds and Platt Bridge are also known as hotspots for trouble in the Wigan area. The safest areas to be are the likes of Orrell, Lowton, Tyldesley, Hindley Green & Standish. The town centre is also safe with high police profile from Greater Manchester Police (GMP) at weekends as well as CCTV.


 
And whilst driving through Hindley and Platt Bridge, I feel like I saw how bad it is for the first time. Crumbling Victorian buildings and an almost palpable sense of violence in the air. I don't live in any of those places but I know if I went out at night near here I would probably get my head kicked in for a laugh. And I know that all over the north west it is the same. The satellites of Manchester and Liverpool and other cities are bad, but the the satellites of the satellites are infinitely worse.


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## cyberfairy (May 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I visited Lancaster on Saturday to buy some trainers. It is nowhere near as grim as I thought it would be.
> It has shit shops, pubs and restaurants, but the buildings are great


You must have incredibly been busy to visit all of the shops, pubs and restaurants in one day. I salute your indefigability.


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## belboid (May 8, 2013)

Fruitloop said:


> I dunno, I spent quality time in the Scarboro job centre and my memories of the place are not ones to be treasured. If I want seaside and chips (and goffs) I'd rather go to Whitby.


but would you rather go to Brid?


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## Orang Utan (May 8, 2013)

cyberfairy said:


> You must have incredibly been busy to visit all of the shops, pubs and restaurants in one day. I salute your indefigability.


I never claimed to. What a ridiculous notion. I visited the tiny town centre.


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## friedaweed (May 8, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> no you are wrong, there is something incredibly grim about all those flash wankers with big houses and sports cars. I can deal with places like Stoke and Crewe and loads of other places mentioned on this thread (but not all), but I can't deal with Knutsford. I can imagine what kind of life you have to live to be one of them and it makes me fucking sick


Well when you put it like that...


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## DrRingDing (May 8, 2013)

Has anyone posted this yet????


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## friedaweed (May 8, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Has anyone posted this yet????



Not on this page


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## krink (May 8, 2013)

the north starts at durham for me. and grimmest city of the north is sunderland.


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## cyberfairy (May 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I never claimed to. What a ridiculous notion. I visited the tiny town centre.


Oh, as an utter fool, I presumed when you wrote Lancaster, you meant Lancaster, not a small part of it. What a ridiculous notion indeed...I have never found a place that great when only visiting the town centre-but then again not into trainers and chain shops.


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## Dillinger4 (May 8, 2013)

> The accused witches lived in the area around Pendle Hill in Lancashire, a county which, at the end of the 16th century, was regarded by the authorities as a wild and lawless region: an area "fabled for its theft, violence and sexual laxity, where the church was honoured without much understanding of its doctrines by the common people"


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## Orang Utan (May 8, 2013)

cyberfairy said:


> Oh, as an utter fool, I presumed when you wrote Lancaster, you meant Lancaster, not a small part of it. What a ridiculous notion indeed...I have never found a place that great when only visiting the town centre-but then again not into trainers and chain shops.


I presume you are from Lancaster as I can feel your provincial pride querulously fluttering in outrage all the way from London.
Meanwhile, you appear to have missed the entire thrust of the thread, in which people make grandstanding and uncharitable assertions about places they once passed through on the coach.


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## cyberfairy (May 8, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> I presume you are from Lancaster as I can feel your provincial pride querulously fluttering in outrage all the way from London.
> Meanwhile, you appear to have missed the entire thrust of the thread, in which people make grandstanding and uncharitable assertions about places they once passed through on the coach.


I slagged off Blackpool and possibly Morecambe (tis an old thread) I am happy that you need to go to Lancaster to get some trainers  (lived in Finsbury Park for ten years btw, a new arrival here)


Anyway back to thread- I did find Grimsby slightly disappointing but I did not research my travel sufficiently and I am sure there were many excellent CAMRA recommended pubs there and wide spacious parklands that my stupid eyes did not light upon. Ergo Grimsby is better than me.


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## Orang Utan (May 8, 2013)

Well I was in Carnforth, which had the nearest supermarket to Silverdale, where I was staying.
When I asked in Tesco where I could buy some trainers, they gave me the same look when I asked someone in Hemsby in Norfolk where I could buy some contact lense lotion, before telling me we needed to drive all the way to a big town to get something as sophisticated as that.


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## silverfish (May 8, 2013)

carlisle and sunderland are nose to nose, born in one lived in the other.

honking


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## Sprocket. (May 10, 2013)

kebabking said:


> Rotherham.
> 
> i've only been there once, about 2007, and every single adult i saw had a mullet and tatoos on their hands. Blackpool is in the running - infact its only my mullet hatred that put Rotherham above (below?) it - its the most awful, soul-destroying, dog-shit strewn dump you could have the misfortune to find yourself. Morecombe, which is utterly dead, pales into insignificance beside this temple to worthless existance.


 
Sadly 35 years ago Rotherham was a cracking little town. The town centre had all the big names, M&S, Boots, Woolworths, C&A etc and two cinemas.
Then they built Meadowhell and it sucked the very life out of the place.
It could happen to any town, most of the folk there are good, decent folk. 
Some businesses in the town centre have had a 300% increase in profit since Rotherham United moved back into the town from the Don Valley Stadium in Sheffield. 
Are you related to Clarkson?


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## Dillinger4 (May 10, 2013)

The Chuckle Brothers live in Rotherham.


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## Sprocket. (May 10, 2013)

Dillinger4 said:


> The Chuckle Brothers live in Rotherham.


From Rotherham, one now lives in Hatfield, (the Doncaster Hatfield) and other lives in Kefalonia.
Hard life innit?


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## coley (May 18, 2013)

Blyth and Ashington


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## friedaweed (May 19, 2013)

coley said:


> Blyth and Ashington


I thought they were called Barry and Paul ?


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## stuff_it (May 19, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> I thought they were called Barry and Paul ?


They are secretly middle class and had to change their names. I thought everyone knew.


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## IC3D (May 19, 2013)

Can any Lancashire people tell me if Bury is considered middleclass, I call bit of a shithole but has pretensions maybe, there's a fish and chip shop that has a pianist what plays popular music from that there london shows for diners I've heard


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## Tom A (May 19, 2013)

IC3D said:


> Can any Lancashire people tell me if Bury is considered middleclass, I call bit of a shithole but has pretensions maybe, there's a fish and chip shop that has a pianist what plays popular music from that there london shows for diners I've heard


IME Bury is considered one of the better Greater Manchester towns, compared with, say, Oldham or Rochdale, and there are some pretty nice parts to it. Prestwich is within the Metropolitan Borough of Bury (although it may be argued that it's still spiritually part of Manchester), and is known to be a fairly pleasant place.

I've visited there twice, once for a gig at the Met, and another time as part of a trip along the East Lancashire Railway, and it seemed a pretty pleasant place, although like most towns, I'm sure it has its grim parts too.


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## Tom A (May 19, 2013)

coley said:


> Blyth and Ashington


Those are strong contenders indeed, my late stepdad came from Ashington, and it wasn't exactly full of interesting things to do when I was there as a child, it's a very insular place, and from what I've heard Blyth is even more of a shithole, with a big heroin problem.


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## IC3D (May 19, 2013)

Tom A said:


> IME Bury is considered one of the better Greater Manchester towns, compared with, say, Oldham or Rochdale, and there are some pretty nice parts to it. Prestwich is within the Metropolitan Borough of Bury (although it may be argued that it's still spiritually part of Manchester), and is known to be a fairly pleasant place.
> 
> I've visited there twice, once for a gig at the Met, and another time as part of a trip along the East Lancashire Railway, and it seemed a pretty pleasant place, although like most towns, I'm sure it has its grim parts too.


I do know Bury very well as I've had family ties there for time, but as a Londoner that's lived in south Manchester, I'm talking moss side, Whaley range etc the soot blackened terraces of the northern satellites seem grimmer than the south by far but yea Bury feels slightly nicer than the afor mentioned


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## tony.c (May 19, 2013)

Tokyo said:


> Barnsley? Next to Rotherham, it shines.
> 
> But Scunthorpe trumps either for grimness.


Haven't been up North for many years, probably the last times were anti-fascist visits in the 70's, so don't know how grim it is now, after Thatcher.
But having watched 'Skint' on tv, Scunthorpe must be a contender.


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## coley (May 20, 2013)

Tom A said:


> Those are strong contenders indeed, my late stepdad came from Ashington, and it wasn't exactly full of interesting things to do when I was there as a child, it's a very insular place, and from what I've heard Blyth is even more of a shithole, with a big heroin problem.


Ashington is going down hard though Blyth seems to be making some kind of recovery, how long is it since you were up here?


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## cyprusclean (May 20, 2013)

Oldham; Stockport.

Didn't think Hull town centre was that bad.


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## cyprusclean (May 20, 2013)

Some of those southern towns are not that great.

Slough, Maidenhead, Bracknell.


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## Tom A (May 20, 2013)

coley said:


> Ashington is going down hard though Blyth seems to be making some kind of recovery, how long is it since you were up here?


2003 was the latest, as my mother lived there for about eight months, before she got the hell out of there, as my stepdad's mother (whom she had moved next door to) became overbearing and she got harrassed by a few of the neighbours (who put a brick though her window a month after she moved in).


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## Tom A (May 20, 2013)

cyprusclean said:


> Some of those southern towns are not that great.
> 
> Slough, Maidenhead, Bracknell.


There seems to be an outer ring of towns approximately five to ten miles out from the M25 which rival any Northern ex-industrial town for its grimness, such as Grays, Stevenage, Luton, Slough, Reading, Guildford, and Gravesend.

Come to think of it, a lot of the medium sized towns in the south have some really grim parts, Swindon and Gloucester spring to mind here.


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## coley (May 20, 2013)

Tom A said:


> 2003 was the latest, as my mother lived there for about eight months, before she got the hell out of there, as my stepdad's mother (whom she had moved next door to) became overbearing and she got harrassed by a few of the neighbours (who put a brick though her window a month after she moved in).


Aye, in parts, it's that kind of place, leased a house for respite and day care for the people I work with  (LD) and was gobsmacked by the hostility it generated.


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## Tom A (May 20, 2013)

coley said:


> Aye, in parts, it's that kind of place, leased a house for respite and day care for the people I work with (LD) and was gobsmacked by the hostility it generated.


They seemed pretty OK when I was younger, but it took my mother moving there to realise what an insular place it is (probably true of a lot of ex-mining areas I guess, in fact some of the smaller villages will probably be much worse for it), and as an incomer (originally from Plymouth) whom displaced some locals, (the landlady was a family friend whom moved the previous tenants out to make way for her), she had a lot of resent aimed her way from the locals, particularly the people whom got kicked out, whom had friends and family still living on the same estate. This, and the domineering stepdad's mother (the stepdad had died back in 1997) was the reason she moved back to Plymouth. Now she and I have no contact with them at all.

Regarding Blyth, for the past 10-15 years, if not longer, it was considered a dive, and as a result they have attempted to regenerate it. Ashington seems to have slipped beneath the radar and continued to go downhill.


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## coley (May 20, 2013)

Whey, you can understand a bit resentment, I wouldn't want to be chucked out to make room for somebody else? Though hoyin bricks through windows is a resentment too far.
As for the smaller mining villages? I have lived in one for 35 years and only by surviving the originals have I earned a degree of acceptance


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## Tom A (May 21, 2013)

coley said:


> Whey, you can understand a bit resentment, I wouldn't want to be chucked out to make room for somebody else?


Well no, and since then I have had friends in Manchester who have had to move on after landlords have wanted to either move family in or sell up, and as you said:


> Though hoyin bricks through windows is a resentment too far.


In some ways, she was "pressured" into moving there, she has suffered from depression since well before I was born, has always felt the need to not let people down (in this case, my stepdad's mother, who arranged her to move into the house next door to hers, and someone whom my mother felt compelled to keep in regular contact with even after my stepdad died, it's a very complicated mess, and this is just one chapter of her turbulent life). Anyway, she's my mother and I am going to always be taking her side, and this was 10 years ago anyway.



> As for the smaller mining villages? I have lived in one for 35 years and only by surviving the originals have I earned a degree of acceptance


Suppose you get established by default just by being there all that time. Still, not the kind of place I would readily live in.


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## cyprusclean (May 21, 2013)

Tom A said:


> There seems to be an outer ring of towns approximately five to ten miles out from the M25 which rival any Northern ex-industrial town for its grimness, such as Grays, Stevenage, Luton, Slough, Reading, Guildford, and Gravesend.
> 
> Come to think of it, a lot of the medium sized towns in the south have some really grim parts, Swindon and Gloucester spring to mind here.


 
_Swindon Bus Station_ is a pretty _grim_ place to be marooned for a couple of hours.


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## Frances Lengel (May 22, 2013)

IC3D said:


> I do know Bury very well as I've had family ties there for time, but as a Londoner that's lived in south Manchester, I'm talking moss side, Whaley range etc the soot blackened terraces of the northern satellites seem grimmer than the south by far but yea Bury feels slightly nicer than the afor mentioned


 
Most of South Manchester's awful - Moss Side's ok, Whalley Range is a poor man's Chorlton (which makes it pretty _fucking_ dreadful IMO), Chorlton/WR have _nothing_ going for them. Levenshulme's ok but a bit nondescript. Etc.


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## Tom A (May 23, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Most of South Manchester's awful - Moss Side's ok, Whalley Range is a poor man's Chorlton (which makes it pretty _fucking_ dreadful IMO), Chorlton/WR have _nothing_ going for them. Levenshulme's ok but a bit nondescript. Etc.


Chorlton become one of those hip and bohemian places, but is very much a middle-class playground, although some pubs are nice to visit once in a while. Walley Range used to be posh (where a lot of mill owners lived), got run down and became a red-light district, and is now bearing the brunt of gentrification as people are priced out of Chorlton.

There is talk of Levenshulme becoming the next place to become gentrified, but it still seems to be the same Levy it's always been since I started coming to Manchester ten years ago. As places go it's not too bad a place to live, cheaper than Withington, Didsbury or Chorlton and not as student ghettoey as Fallowfield.


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## nicedream (Jun 1, 2013)

Orang Utan said:


> Oldham? Skelmersdale? Rotherham? Your nominations please.


 

could be Morecambe, but it is getting better.


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 1, 2013)

nicedream said:


> could be Morecambe, but it is getting better.


 
I always find places like Morecambe are tempered by being in a physically beautiful place. A truly grim place doesn't even have pleasant surroundings to mitigate the misery. The only exception to this is Margate but that's not in the North. The grimmest places I have visited in the North is probably Wigan or parts of Merseyside. I have relatives in Blyth but haven't been for years, my childhood memories of the place are quite good but influenced by an overload of sweets every time we went.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jun 13, 2013)

Most of the satellite towns of Manchester are pretty grim, although I agree Bury seems to be a bit better than most. Any town has its decent bits of course. The only redeeming features they have is that they're surrounded by lovely countryside, and of course most of the people are decent folk.

Rochdale is grim. Salford is grim*. Ashton is grim. Stockport is grim. Bolton is grim. Never been to Wigan so can't say, but on the area average, it must also be grim.

* the only place I've ever experienced having idiots throw rocks at me. Presumably as some form of entertainment as I was only walking down the street minding my own business. I suppose rocks are better than fireworks, which also used to happen - it's much more difficult to get rocks to hit a target after all.

Oldham is grim. Absolutely awful place, except the Saddleworth bit in the east of the borough which is lovely. The town proper is soulless and frankly depressing, and being on a hill the winds cuts through you like a knife. I remember hearing two old women on a bus heading away from Oldham (i.e. in the right direction) that they stopped shopping in Oldham for fear of being knocked over by the wind.

Like any other city, Manchester has its good and bad parts, some grim too especially in some of the inner suburbs. No different to anywhere else really.

Other parts of the North:

Teesside is grim. Apart from the very outer fringes when you get into the countryside.

Oh, nearly forgot Burnley. Grim.

_Brought to you courtesy of the Northern England Tourist Board._


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 14, 2013)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Most of the satellite towns of Manchester are pretty grim, although I agree Bury seems to be a bit better than most. Any town has its decent bits of course. The only redeeming features they have is that they're surrounded by lovely countryside, and of course most of the people are decent folk.
> 
> Rochdale is grim. Salford is grim*. Ashton is grim. Stockport is grim. Bolton is grim. Never been to Wigan so can't say, but on the area average, it must also be grim.
> 
> ...


 
Oldham's not as bad as people make out, I feel protective when people slag off Oldham. Rochdale is objectively far worse. Oldham's going through /has gone through loads of bad times but soulless isn't an accusation I think you could legitimately throw at the place even though it could be described as a shithole in many ways. Gaffe was always good to me - My only long term job was in Oldham. And I had a pretty decent flat years back on St Mary's.

Mind you, Manchester is better, but even then when I talk about Manchester I mean the inner city suburbs to the north of the city centre so (which just _are_ Manchester), with respect, farmerbarleymow stick to the sheepshagging - My personal recommendation is the Manx Longhorn - The dual horns offer a multitude of purchase options.


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## stethoscope (Jun 21, 2013)

A southerners opinion FWIW  But having lived up in this area now for 6 months, I've visited Hull on a number of occasions, and my once low expectation of what the place would be like having soaked up the stuff I've heard/read over the years - I've been pleasantly surprised


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## Das Uberdog (Jul 3, 2013)

Rochdale is the grimmest place i've visited in recent memory... Blackburn/Burnley/East Lancs in general have some awful spots too. Agree with others that Warrington/Wigan are terrible - but tbh i think that Bolton and Preston aren't that bad at all.

my vote ultimately has to go with Rochdale.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jul 3, 2013)

Rochdale is famous for being the town where the Co-operative Movement was founded. However it moved its headquarters to somewhere in Switzerland during the Thatcher era. (I remember hearing this at the time but cannot find any evidence on the internet - help) Rochdale should be proud of the Rochdale Principles which guided co-operatives throughout the world.

The other feature of Rochdale I know about is that Gracie Fields came from there. Whether you appreciate that, depends on your ears' tolerance of loud high notes. I am ambivalent about that but I am sure she meant well and was talented in her medium.


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## farmerbarleymow (Jul 3, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> The other feature of Rochdale I know about is that Gracie Fields came from there. Whether you appreciate that, depends on your ears' tolerance of loud high notes. I am ambivalent about that but I am sure she meant well and was talented in her medium.


 
I recorded a programme off the radio about her that was broadcast on R4Extra - How Tickled Am I? Quite an interesting potted history of her life, and says she was the highest paid film star in the world in her time, which is impressive for a working class lass from Rochdale.


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## Fez909 (Jul 3, 2013)

steph said:


> A southerners opinion FWIW  But having lived up in this area now for 6 months, I've visited Hull on a number of occasions, and my once low expectation of what the place would be like having soaked up the stuff I've heard/read over the years - I've been pleasantly surprised


I've only visited Hull once (to go to The Deep) but like you I've heard all the stories.  I expected it to be like Middlesbrough but it seemed much cleaner/nicer.  There seems to be miles more going on there than you'd expect,  and the buildings being posted on the mundane thread make it look really quite nice


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## souljacker (Jul 3, 2013)

In my experience, I'd say its a toss up between St Helens and Crewe.


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## killer b (Jul 3, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Oldham's not as bad as people make out, I feel protective when people slag off Oldham. Rochdale is objectively far worse. Oldham's going through /has gone through loads of bad times but soulless isn't an accusation I think you could legitimately throw at the place even though it could be described as a shithole in many ways. Gaffe was always good to me - My only long term job was in Oldham. And I had a pretty decent flat years back on St Mary's.


agree about oldham - i had to do some work there last year and was pleasantly surprised. not the most exciting place in the world, but fairly friendly and busy - certainly not the grim shithole it's portayed as.


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## johnnyboy93 (Feb 23, 2015)

In all honesty due to its industrial past, the North has towns, many of which offer rather unpleasant feeling once you set foot onto their streets compared with those down South. The list is rather large and i will go on and on: Parts of Kingston upon Hull, parts of Bradford, Rhyl, Connah's Quay, Caernarfon, Morecambe, Kirkby, Burnley, Holyhead, Rotherham, parts of Middlesbrough, Warrington, parts of Stoke, Stockton, Rochdale, eastern Glasgow like Easterhouse, parts of Sunderland and Wallsend are all pretty bad as far as i know. Rhyl in North Wales probably being the worst and grimmest, now there's a real run down place for you, before a lovely pretty little seaside town but NOW its just horrendous, lots of drug dealers, alcoholics and nutters.

South: Littlehampton, Bognor, Llanelli, some parts of London, Watford, Slough, parts of Newport (Wales) unbeliveably horrendous!, Thornhill, parts of Portsmouth and High Wycombe also has this reputation of being called grim i believe.


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## Ax^ (Feb 23, 2015)

My sister spent 4 years in langold cannie day I was impressed,

Might as well of been Norfolk


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 24, 2015)

Chopwell
Consett


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## Ming (Feb 24, 2015)

Birkenhead is pretty grim. Massive unemployment, drugs, violence. Thing is when the shipyard was successful it was pretty nice (Hamilton Square is still beautiful and the park inspired Central Park in NY). But it's just decayed. Depressing place now.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 5, 2015)

Barnsley. 
Bradford. 
Pontefract. 
Goole.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 5, 2015)

Haven't seen this thread before, but I'd like to add my voice to those sticking up for Hull. 

Worst place? Leeds is the worst proper city, bits of it are OK to look at but the whole place just oozes bad vibes somehow. It also seems to have its own special kind of rain that doesn't so much fall from the sky as fly at you from all directions and tunnel straight through to your bones. The populace is singularly miserable and ill-tempered. None of the roads go anywhere and the pavements are all slightly too narrow for some reason. 

As for towns, I'd struggle to think of anything nice to say abut Warrington. Good train connections though, so at least it's easy to get out again.


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## Fez909 (Mar 5, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Haven't seen this thread before, but I'd like to add my voice to those sticking up for Hull.
> 
> Worst place? Leeds is the worst proper city, bits of it are OK to look at but the whole place just oozes bad vibes somehow. It also seems to have its own special kind of rain that doesn't so much fall from the sky as fly at you from all directions and tunnel straight through to your bones. The populace is singularly miserable and ill-tempered. None of the roads go anywhere and the pavements are all slightly too narrow for some reason.
> 
> As for towns, I'd struggle to think of anything nice to say abut Warrington. Good train connections though, so at least it's easy to get out again.


Miserable and ill-tempered? It sounds like you're describing yourself, mate. Change the fucking record - you've been banging on about Leeds being shit for as long as I can remember, and no one ever engages you in it. You're like an old man shouting at the clouds, wondering when "real music" is coming back (another one of your never-ending whines).

How about the friendliest street in the UK? Leeds: http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2007/jan/15/features11.g21

What about friendliest entire city...from a woman's perspective? That'll be Leeds: http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/sep/07/britishidentity.healthandwellbeing

What about friendliest for kids? No, not Leeds...yet. Maybe soon: http://www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/...-making-its-child-friendly-ambition-a-reality

Best suburbs to live in (based on how they rank for things like positive community spirit)? One of them's in Leeds: http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....rbs-named-best-places-to-live-in-uk-1-6498098

I could go on, but instead I'll leave with some kind words from you, our friendly Lancastrian (or wherever you come from) to show us how it's done.

From the "places that shouldn't be places" thread:


SpookyFrank said:


> Leeds


From a Jimmy Savile thread:


SpookyFrank said:


> It could only happen in Leeds.





SpookyFrank said:


> The 7/7 attacks on London were carried out by four muslim lads from Leeds.
> 
> Clearly what we should have done in response to this was introduce tighter controls on the city of Leeds, and the wider Yorkshire community. Any Yorkshire people found to be spreading hatred and resentment of others, which is to say all Yorkshire people, should be banned from speaking in public. Imports of whippets, pies and flat caps should be halted to prevent the dissemination of an extreme form of Yorkshireism.





SpookyFrank said:


> Somewhere way better than Leeds. Hell, for example.





SpookyFrank said:


> Anyway, the solution is simple and it's one I've argued for many times before. We simply deport the entire population of Leeds, flatten the place and start again. Only this time, we'll populate it with actual humans





SpookyFrank said:


> They might at least advertise something relevant to the place. Like undertakers in Bournemouth, scuba diving courses in central Somerset or Satan in Leeds.





SpookyFrank said:


> There's already a northern version of the 'skip full of people' concept. It's called Leeds.





SpookyFrank said:


> The universe ends just off junction 43 of the M1 as you head into Leeds.





SpookyFrank said:


> It's a conspiracy by the French to make us look rubbish by showcasing Leeds; Britain's worst city and indeed the worst city in the entire world.





SpookyFrank said:


> There are two things to do in Leeds, namely leave or kill yourself.





SpookyFrank said:


> Nobody cares about Leeds and nobody ever will.





SpookyFrank said:


> Hull is better than Leeds.
> 
> But then bowel cancer is better than Leeds so that's not saying much.



There's another 40 comments along the same lines. I'm actually starting to get a bit worried about you. I think you might need to speak to someone about your obsession with Leeds.

Anyway, bed time. I hope today is less hate-filled for you and that you have a lovely Thursday, Frank. 

x


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)




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## SpookyFrank (Mar 5, 2015)

I feel I should at least be given points for consistency.

e2a: And the pavements _are_ too narrow.


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## neonwilderness (Mar 5, 2015)

Fez909 said:


> Miserable and ill-tempered? It sounds like you're describing yourself, mate. Change the fucking record - you've been banging on about Leeds being shit for as long as I can remember, and no one ever engages you in it. You're like an old man shouting at the clouds, wondering when "real music" is coming back (another one of your never-ending whines).
> 
> How about the friendliest street in the UK? Leeds: http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2007/jan/15/features11.g21
> 
> ...


You know that thing where you read something so many times it starts to look wrong? I'm getting that with Leeds now


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## Orang Utan (Mar 5, 2015)

Funny comments about Leeds' weather when it's on the wrong side of the Pennines for really shitty rainy weather. If you want sideways rain, try Manchester or Edinburgh.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 5, 2015)

I wonder what happened to Frank in Leeds? Something traumatic, no doubt.


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm in Rotherham today. It's pretty grim


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## Sprocket. (Mar 5, 2015)

machine cat said:


> I'm in Rotherham today. It's pretty grim



Pop over to Goldthorpe in the Dearne Valley, whilst here, it's worth visiting.
Looks rough but the people are great.

And It's Rovrum to us locals!


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

I don't have time to get to Goldthorpe I'm afraid... I'm getting the first train back to west yorks!


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## Sprocket. (Mar 5, 2015)

Here is a photo from Goldthorpe to remember maggie!


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## el-ahrairah (Mar 5, 2015)

i quite fancy the idea of living in leeds tbh.


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i quite fancy the idea of living in leeds tbh.


Do it! Or at least come visit


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## kebabking (Mar 5, 2015)

SpookyFrank i thought your diatribe against Leeds was one of the funniest things i've seen in a long while. well done sir - and any chance of the additional 40-odd pronouncements being published in an unabridged 'why Leeds is the shittest place in the world' thread?


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 5, 2015)

kebabking said:


> SpookyFrank i thought your diatribe against Leeds was one of the funniest things i've seen in a long while. well done sir - and any chance of the additional 40-odd pronouncements being published in an unabridged 'why Leeds is the shittest place in the world' thread?



Well I might have been tempted but now that all my anti-Leeds posts have been compiled into one convenient meta-post there's no real need for it.


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## Fez909 (Mar 5, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well I might have been tempted but now that all my anti-Leeds posts have been compiled into one convenient meta-post there's no real need for it.


I made sure to leave enough for two 'sequels'. Although, as any fule kno, the sequels always disappoint.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 5, 2015)

Fez909 said:


> I made sure to leave enough for two 'sequels'. Although, as any fule kno, the sequels always disappoint.



I think you got all the best ones in there tbf.


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## tim (Mar 5, 2015)

9  pages of parochial Southern English prejudice,  If you really want grim Northern towns I'd go for Calais and Milan. In their own distinct ways the shittiest cities on the Northern periphery of their respective countries.


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i quite fancy the idea of living in leeds tbh.



I despise Leeds, but then again I work there, only know the city centre and not the suburbs. I'd move there if I didn't have family in Hudds.


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## laptop (Mar 5, 2015)

tim said:


> 9  pages of parochial Southern English prejudice,  If you really want grim Northern towns I'd go for Calais and Milan. In their own distinct ways the shittiest cities on the Northern periphery of their respective countries.



But Mansfield is grimmer even than Thamesmead. Fact.


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 5, 2015)

Fez909 said:


> Best suburbs to live in (based on how they rank for things like positive community spirit)? One of them's in Leeds: http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co....rbs-named-best-places-to-live-in-uk-1-6498098



Have to take issue with that. Chaple allerton is full of insufferable middle class hipsters - its a northern outpost for london meeja types where you pay £10 for a loaf of artisan bread.

And otley - whilst pleasant enough - is in no way a 'suburb' - its a town in its own right and its a good 8 miles from the city.

Having said that i salute your defence of leeds - it has some great parks, excellent museums and theatres and a decent music scene - plus the countries oldest Caribbean carnival. The city centre has been gentirfied to fuck - forcing out most of the independant shops - but thats pretty universal.  Parts of it are pretty fucking grim  (it is a northern urban conurbation after all) - but not everywhere.

I moved to leeds from Clacton, Essex - so i feel i have an advanced level of expertise on the true meaning of 'grim'.


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

^^ fair point about chapel allerton - it feels a million miles from chapeltown, despite being five minutes up the road... 
Otley's more or less another country


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## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2015)

always found carlisle unremittingly grim, the only place i know improved by overcast skies and rain.


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## Dan U (Mar 5, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> always found carlisle unremittingly grim, the only place i know improved by overcast skies and rain.


I went to Carlisle, admittedly for a night and a day for work and thought it was decent. 

It was cloudy though.


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## cyberfairy (Mar 5, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> always found carlisle unremittingly grim, the only place i know improved by overcast skies and rain.


I really like it- a wonderful dark and depraved castle, some really ancient bits in the town and cheap Italian restaurants. Never stayed there after 7pm on a weekend though...


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

Kaka Tim said:


> Have to take issue with that. Chaple allerton is full of insufferable middle class hipsters - its a northern outpost for london meeja types where you pay £10 for a loaf of artisan bread.
> 
> And otley - whilst pleasant enough - is in no way a 'suburb' - its a town in its own right and its a good 8 miles from the city.
> 
> ...




What's Kirkstall like? I know a few people who live there who say it's okay, but I really don't know the that part of the city at all. All I know is a bit of Beeston, Holbeck and Headingley.


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## cyberfairy (Mar 5, 2015)

Still find Nelson the worst place I have visited. Been to Preston again today and love it! Big parks, great museums, good restaurants and cafes and dead friendly. Shit to shop in since the recession though- used to be some lovely independent shops but no more. Has a FREE bookshop though


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## Dan U (Mar 5, 2015)

West Brom high Street is pretty bleak in the daytime. One pound shops and one pound bakers. Lots of neglected people


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 5, 2015)

machine cat said:


> What's Kirkstall like? I know a few people who live there who say it's okay, but I really don't know the that part of the city at all. All I know is a bit of Beeston, Holbeck and Headingley.



s'alright. suburbia - mostly non-descript. There's the abbey which is worth a visit.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 5, 2015)

el-ahrairah said:


> i quite fancy the idea of living in leeds tbh.


I'm in Leeds right now with work, had a nice night out last night. Ended up in a lovely (but rather hipster) bar eating fantastic cured meats and drinking craft ale


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'm in Leeds right now with work, had a nice night out last night. Ended up in a lovely (but rather hipster) bar eating fantastic cured meats and drinking craft ale


Just for the record, we also have mildly scary pubs like the General Elliott, and a fair few veggie places (for el-a's preferences) - it's not *all* craft beer and cured meats


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## friendofdorothy (Mar 5, 2015)

Widnes is grim. Not as grim as it used to be, but I still hate it. This is how I remember it:


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## Fez909 (Mar 5, 2015)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'm in Leeds right now with work, had a nice night out last night. Ended up in a lovely (but rather hipster) bar eating fantastic cured meats and drinking craft ale


Friends of Ham?


machine cat said:


> What's Kirkstall like? I know a few people who live there who say it's okay, but I really don't know the that part of the city at all. All I know is a bit of Beeston, Holbeck and Headingley.


I lived there for a bit and only live a 10 minute walk from there now. It's cheap, friendly and not too far to town. As Tim says, there's not a lot going on, but the Abbey and surrounding area is great in Summer, and there's a pub called The Bridge which is ace. There's a club which occasionally has decent nights on called Musiquarium.

Oh, and Headingley is about a 15 minute walk away.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 5, 2015)

Fez909 said:


> Friends of Ham?


That's the one. Was lovely


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## Fez909 (Mar 5, 2015)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> That's the one. Was lovely


Aye, it's nice in the downstairs bit


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

Fez909 said:


> I lived there for a bit and only live a 10 minute walk from there now. It's cheap, friendly and not too far to town. As Tim says, there's not a lot going on, but the Abbey and surrounding area is great in Summer, and there's a pub called The Bridge which is ace. There's a club which occasionally has decent nights on called Musiquarium.
> 
> Oh, and Headingley is about a 15 minute walk away.



A pub, an offie, a bus into town and the fear that I'm not going to get robbed is all I need.


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> That's the one. Was lovely



Is that the place next to the Brewery Tap?


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Just for the record, we also have mildly scary pubs like the General Elliott, and a fair few veggie places (for el-a's preferences) - it's not *all* craft beer and cured meats



What was that boozer we were in where that massive fuck off bloke just stared at me until I'd finished my pint?


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## Orang Utan (Mar 5, 2015)

leeds drinks at easter, anyone? SpookyFrank ?


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

machine cat said:


> What was that boozer we were in where that massive fuck off bloke just stared at me until I'd finished my pint?


I don't remember that  
Was that the same time as the serenadey busker? If so, whitelocks. Otherwise it's either the ship, the angel or the packhorse (the briggate one)


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> leeds drinks at easter, anyone? SpookyFrank ?



http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/leeds-meet.332861/


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## Fez909 (Mar 5, 2015)

machine cat said:


> A pub, an offie, a bus into town and the fear that I'm not going to get robbed is all I need.


Then Kirkstall is for you. They abandoned the plans to build a proper metro system in Leeds and instead built a bus lane to Kirkstall 

Handy for me/potentially you, though


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## Orang Utan (Mar 5, 2015)

My sister lives in Kirkstall. She loves it. Very friendly


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

I'd also suggest Burley, especially if you have a cat. There's a very active 'cats of burley' fb group, and it makes me half regret living where i do 
If you don't have a cat but fancy borrowing one, they all seem to invade everyone's houses..


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## machine cat (Mar 5, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> I don't remember that
> Was that the same time as the serenadey busker? If so, whitelocks. Otherwise it's either the ship, the angel or the packhorse (the briggate one)



Defiantly not WL. The Angel maybe?


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## tufty79 (Mar 5, 2015)

If it was the first time i met you, it was the packhorse..


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## blairsh (Mar 5, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> I'd also suggest Burley, especially if you have a cat. There's a very active 'cats of burley' fb group, and it makes me half regret living where i do
> If you don't have a cat but fancy borrowing one, they all seem to invade everyone's houses..


I like Burley, have some very fond memories/lack of memories of the plaec too


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