# Sexual street harassment in Brixton



## S A Villarino (Aug 16, 2013)

Hi guys,

I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis. Regardless of what I wear (office clothes, jeans, dresses [and most importantly it doesn't matter!]) I can't walk out on my own without people making comments, shouting at me from across the road, making pussy cat noises, occasionally following etc. Many men don't seem to respect me because I am a young woman who has the tenacity to walk on her own. 

I want to know other people's stories. Have you experienced it? Have you seen it happen to others? How does Brixton square with other areas? 

Any input appreciated. 

Thanks, 
S


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

What publication is the article for?


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## trabuquera (Aug 16, 2013)

lived in the area for nearly 20 years. sexually harassed in the street on fewer than 5 occasions. (no, I'm not yet a pensioner). I hesitate to play down anyone else's experience of this but IME Brixton is actually one of the least worst places for it. How long have you been in SW9? Because one other dynamic that *might* be at play is maybe some older male residents thinking that new, fashiony, or middle-class incomers (and believe me a LOT of that can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner) are 'fair game' for this sort of crap, or at least less likely to unleash a volley of proper Brixton verbal abuse in return, cos they'd be too scared.

(none of this excuses anyone sexually harrassing anyone, btw. but my experience has been that sexualised harassment is far more common, far coarser and far more hostile in Clapham than Brixton for example.)

One to make ya laugh - this did happen in Brixton. Years ago:

Man driving stupid car halts at zebra crossing so I can pass. Beeps at me and makes remarks about my body.
me: *total silence, looks away, carry on, no big deal*
Man [shouting out of the car window]: Oi oi OI! Manners maketh man, BITCH!

I giggle about it even now.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 16, 2013)

An opinion piece for Brixton Blog. Aim is mainly to raise awareness and/or explore whether it's a major issue for anyone else.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 16, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis. Regardless of what I wear (office clothes, jeans, dresses [and most importantly it doesn't matter!]) I can't walk out on my own without people making comments, shouting at me from across the road, making pussy cat noises, occasionally following etc. Many men don't seem to respect me because I am a young woman who has the tenacity to walk on her own.
> 
> ...


 

Is it because you're stunningly beautiful?


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## S A Villarino (Aug 16, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> lived in the area for nearly 20 years. sexually harassed in the street on fewer than 5 occasions. (no, I'm not yet a pensioner). I hesitate to play down anyone else's experience of this but IME Brixton is actually one of the least worst places for it. How long have you been in SW9? Because one other dynamic that *might* be at play is maybe some older male residents thinking that new, fashiony, or middle-class incomers (and believe me a LOT of that can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner) are 'fair game' for this sort of crap, or at least less likely to unleash a volley of proper Brixton verbal abuse in return, cos they'd be too scared.
> 
> (none of this excuses anyone sexually harrassing anyone, btw. but my experience has been that sexualised harassment is far more common, far coarser and far more hostile in Clapham than Brixton for example.)
> 
> ...


 

Thanks for the insightful post.

Interesting that you see a class dynamic at play - definitely something that needs to be explored. I've not been here long but because I'm of rather complicated mixed race ancestry, not sure if I can automatically be placed within the gentrifying elite. For example, when I refused to respond to the shouts of a (black) man, he turned racist and said, 'doesn't speak a word of English!' The aim was clearly to belittle me. My friend, who probably could fall into a gentrified demographic, experiences this rarely. Find it happens on both my way to Brixton and Clapham. Used to be okay about it and shrug it off but recently there's been a lot more hostility.

Who knew 'Manners maketh man' and 'Bitch' could go in the same sentence! ;-) Thanks for your amusing anecdote.


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## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

trabuquera that's both horrifying and hysterical!


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## trabuquera (Aug 16, 2013)

I think he wanted me to say "thank you, kind sir, for your gallant comments, and for obeying the traffic laws and letting me walk past. Gents like you are just so rare these days".  What a prince.

(It was looooooong before Breaking Bad was even dreamed of, so it wasn't even a Jesse Pinkman impersonation or anything.)


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## trabuquera (Aug 16, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Thanks for the insightful post.
> 
> Interesting that you see a class dynamic at play - definitely something that needs to be explored. I've not been here long but *because I'm of rather complicated mixed race ancestry, not sure if I can automatically be placed within the gentrifying elite*. .


 
No reason at all that mixed-race people can't be part of a gentrifying elite. Not saying that you individually are, but, for example, I have seem plenty of young fashiony dressed-up mixed-race young women with VERY  middle-class accents and ways all over Brixton Village, talking about how they'd never have touched Brixton with a bargepole in earlier years but "it's alright now"   . Skin colour and class are two different things. they intersect (sorry everyone) but are not the same.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 16, 2013)

a long time ago now - maybe 8 years - I probably wrote about it on here, a man started giving me all this "let me lick your pussy" etc whilst I was unlocking my bicycle outside KFC.  I asked him would he speak to his sister or mother that way and he apologised and shuffled off.  Ms T just reminded me of this the other day.  Apart from that, not much - although I did get kerb-crawled when I was 9 months pregnant..   He may have just been a genuinely kind person but there was something about the way he was asking me if I'd like a lift home that made me think .. hmmmm

haven't had anything like that in years but then I'm invisible these days pushing a pram/dragging a toddler...


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

You could take a look at the @everyday sexism on twitter... 

also btp have trained up a number of officers around how to deal with complaints of sexual harassment, although I'm sceptical about how effective this will be after a shitty experience in Liverpool St station in the launch week. 

idumea and I both recently contributed to a study on sexual harassment.  She might have some interesting stuff to share on this


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## S A Villarino (Aug 16, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> No reason at all that mixed-race people can't be part of a gentrifying elite. Not saying that you individually are, but, for example, I have seem plenty of young fashiony dressed-up mixed-race young women with VERY middle-class accents and ways all over Brixton Village, talking about how they'd never have touched Brixton with a bargepole in earlier years but "it's alright now"   . Skin colour and class are two different things. they intersect (sorry everyone) but are not the same.


 

You're right that they're not the same thing and that skin colour and class are very different. However, if you're walking by in work clothes and no one hears you speak, it's hard to assume that they automatically think you're a yuppie hipster, especially when they use your own skin colour against you. I think you're definitely onto something when you say there is a bit of conflict between 'old' and 'new' Brixton and perhaps I get it even worse *because* of my ethnicity, which makes me an easy target because it means people can attack me for both my gender and race (God do I know that from growing up!!). 

However, this is why I need more stories. I cannot possibly be the only unlucky woman in Brixton who experiences this. To go down the class route, is there anyone here to falls into a middle class, fashionista category who gets harassed?


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## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

gaijingirl that's really strange as I've had two pervy incidents in the last month or so, i.e. very heavily pregnant. There must be some sort of very specific fetish <<shudder>>.

op- I'd echo trabuquera, yes, I have been on the receiving end of some fairly bleurgh behaviour, but Brixton is still much better than Clapham, Islington (Upper Street can be a nightmare on a Saturday night)- and the very worst I have experienced was in the City. However, yes, I have had some delightful things shouted at me in the street in Brixton, but it's difficult to say whether it's worse now than before, partly because of the strange pregnancy stuff  It has included some fairly tedious clichéd stuff too (you know you want my big black cock in you white bitch)- I mean seriously, at least be original.

E2A I am white & pretty obviously middle class but *not* a fashionista


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## S A Villarino (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> You could take a look at the @everyday sexism on twitter...
> 
> also btp have trained up a number of officers around how to deal with complaints of sexual harassment, although I'm sceptical about how effective this will be after a shitty experience in Liverpool St station in the launch week.
> 
> idumea and I both recently contributed to a study on sexual harassment. She might have some interesting stuff to share on this


 

Thank you.

What was your shitty experience at Liverpool Street Station? 

I would like any insight you and idumea might have to offer.


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## Kizmet (Aug 16, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis...
> 
> ...a young woman who has the tenacity to walk on her own.



Temerity. Although some tenacity is also required.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

You arent the only woman in brixton to experience this. It's pretty normal and by normal I don't mean that it's ok.  Often I think it's about power, humiliation and showing manliness.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is it because you're stunningly beautiful?



Attitudes like this stink and stop people from speaking up about sexual harassment.


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## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> You arent the only woman in brixton to experience this. It's pretty normal and by normal I don't mean that it's ok. Often I think it's about *power, humiliation and showing manliness*.


yes- I don't think it has anything at all to do with sex, is power


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## Thora (Aug 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is it because you're stunningly beautiful?


Seriously?


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## S A Villarino (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> You arent the only woman in brixton to experience this. It's pretty normal and by normal I don't mean that it's ok. Often I think it's about power, humiliation and showing manliness.


 

Yes, absolutely. The men are rarely ever alone when they harass. Always with a mate or in a group to show off cheap bravado.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Yes, absolutely. The men are rarely ever alone when they harass. Always with a mate or in a group to show off cheap bravado.



IME when it's happened in the morning on the way to work then men have often been alone. Afternoons and evenings is more likely to be a group. That said the liverpool St incident was by a lone man in the evening... but generally that's the pattern that I've observed...


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## Rushy (Aug 16, 2013)

As  a bloke, I've seen a lot of low level leering and cat calling around here over the years. Guys hanging on street corners or just walking past and commenting. More often rude in a seedy intrusive way - like leering and saying "hey sexy. you look like you want a real man"  rather than out and out abuse or aggression - I've always thought it was unpleasant, as did my ex, but I am often surprised at the positive reactions the guys sometimes get from the women, who will act coy, giggle, flirt, make out they are annoyed and tell the guy off but at the same time stop and engage in conversation ultimately ending in an exchange of phone numbers. I assumed it was a cultural thing.

I had a (Jamaican, IIRC) builder in his 50s working for me who would constantly cat call and wolf whistle from the scaffold outside my house. I asked him not to because I thought it was unpleasant. But he would sometimes pull and would disappear for an hour!


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## Kizmet (Aug 16, 2013)

In my experience Brixton has a thriving street culture (by English standards) and in common with a lot of other areas with similar street cultures around the world there is an externalisation of behaviours normally hidden. I think part of the problem, putting aside incidents of genuine nastiness of which there are many, is the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so.

With the inevitable result of making those uncomfortable people even more uncomfortable.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Err I'm comfortable on the street I just don't appreciate men making unwelcome comments about my tits or fucking me.


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## Boudicca (Aug 16, 2013)

Last week, as I was walking up my street, one of couple of blokes walking past, said 'Good evening'.  When I turned towards him, he said 'I was just admiring you'.

As he was a very pleasant looking young man, and I am old enough to be his mother, IT MADE MY DAY.


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## mrsfran (Aug 16, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> In my experience Brixton has a thriving street culture (by English standards) and in common with a lot of other areas with similar street cultures around the world there is an externalisation of behaviours normally hidden. I think part of the problem, putting aside incidents of genuine nastiness of which there are many, is the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so.
> 
> With the inevitable result of making those uncomfortable people even more uncomfortable.


 
What does this even mean? What's the link between being "comfortable/uncomfortable on the street" and not being ok with sexual harrassment?


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> In my experience Brixton has a thriving street culture (by English standards) and in common with a lot of other areas with similar street cultures around the world there is an externalisation of behaviours normally hidden. I think part of the problem, putting aside incidents of genuine nastiness of which there are many, is the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so.
> 
> With the inevitable result of making those uncomfortable people even more uncomfortable.


 
"externalisation of behaviours normally hidden"

And what would these behaviours be?

There is a world of difference between chatting up a woman in the street and sexist abuse.

It is an issue in other countries. Such as India. Which have a street culture.




> This video is part of] a social campaign against Eve Teasing. That is where Indian men just stare at you on the streets, pass really lewd comments, molestation, even kidnap and rape.
> It is a horrible experience and no women should have to go through it. It is a form of public sexual harassment of women and a real problem in the Indian sub continent. This kind of violence against the women in India just has to stop. This campaign needs a lot of international eyeballs for people to understand how serious the problem is India.​The campaign includes women from all over Mumbai speaking out against these men. The more people that see this the bigger the voice for women in India.”​


​​


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## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

Boudicca said:


> Last week, as I was walking up my street, one of couple of blokes walking past, said 'Good evening'. When I turned towards him, he said 'I was just admiring you'.
> 
> As he was a very pleasant looking young man, and I am old enough to be his mother, IT MADE MY DAY.


There's a difference between compliments (which are unusual, this being London and everyone avoiding eye contact let alone interaction) and harassment.  A guy stopped me today and told me I looked beautiful pregnant- it surprised me and I took a second to get beyond my instinctive distrust and thank him- but it was a completely different interaction to kerb-crawling 'you need real cock' man.  Would be a shame if we lost one because of the other, but many men seem incapable of complimenting someone without propositioning them and then getting aggressive when we don't look instantly, pathetically grateful.


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## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> "externalisation of behaviours normally hidden"
> 
> And what would these behaviours be?
> 
> There is a *world of difference between chatting up a woman in the street and sexist abuse*.


As ever, you make my point much more elegantly than I did


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## trashpony (Aug 16, 2013)

Is 'the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so' the clash between men and women?


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Is 'the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so' the clash between men and women?



Innit. As I have said elsewhere a woman in public is not public property.


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

Most recently. Yesterday, on the corner before the Rec.  He said "hello sexy", I told him to fuck off.  End of.


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## trashpony (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Innit. As I have said elsewhere a woman in public is not public property.


I think you're probably just not down enough with the street culture 

Any minute now, someone's going to say vibrant


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Attitudes like this stink and stop people from speaking up about sexual harassment.





Thora said:


> Seriously?


 
It wasn't meant like that!


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## Greebo (Aug 16, 2013)

trashpony said:


> <snip>Any minute now, someone's going to say vibrant


 
Not "edgy"?


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## trashpony (Aug 16, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Not "edgy"?


Vibrant is a step towards edgy I think. Vibrant just means that the black/white balance might be not entirely like it is in 99% of the UK. IMO


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It wasn't meant like that!



What did you mean?


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## killer b (Aug 16, 2013)

kismet's campaign to convince us all he's not some kind of creepy sex case forges ahead, i see.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> What did you mean?


 
Don't worry, I'm busy and was busy when I typed it and got distracted so it all came out wrong

btw:  I stopped wearing skirts due to similar kind of situation and being kerb-crawled.  It's not nice, and women shouldn't have to put up with it


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## Belushi (Aug 16, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I think part of the problem, putting aside incidents of genuine nastiness of which there are many, is the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so.
> 
> With the inevitable result of making those uncomfortable people even more uncomfortable.


 
I must remember this little gem next time someone's harassed in the workplace. "Of course part of the problem is the clash between those comfortable in the office and those not so.."


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Is 'the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so' the clash between men and women?


 

Not entirely. I think the level of self-consciousness or vulnerability you are feeling "can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner" as Trabuquera says.  I reckon a man who's looking for entertainment will throw a line out to a woman he thinks he'll get a reaction out of and sadly, some men aggressively pick on a woman who's looking vulnerable. Conversely, I see highly attractive young women walk completely unmolested. Usually if you front it out and project invulnerability and mild boredom with their antics you won't get unduly bothered.


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## Belushi (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Usually if you front it out and project invulnerability and mild boredom with their antics you won't get unduly bothered.


 
You're speaking as a local woman I take it?


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## Ms T (Aug 16, 2013)

I get hello sexy, beautiful etc a lot - way more than in central London. And I've been kerb-crawled a few times, and had, frankly, CHILDREN say vile, shocking things to me.  The former is water off a duck's back these days, although I never know how I'm supposed to react. I'm conditioned to be polite so i usually smile vaguely like an idiot thenI just scuttle off feeling faintly uncomfortable. I stopped wearing red lipstick for a while years ago because I always got comments about my lips whenever I did.

 What I don't mind is genuine compliments like "nice dress" or "that colour looks good on you", both of which I've had recently.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Not entirely. I think the level of self-consciousness or vulnerability you are feeling "can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner" as Trabuquera says.  I reckon a man who's looking for entertainment will throw a line out to a woman he thinks he'll get a reaction out of and sadly, some men aggressively pick on a woman who's looking vulnerable. Conversely, I see highly attractive young women walk completely unmolested. Usually if you front it out and project invulnerability and mild boredom with their antics you won't get unduly bothered.



I don't think that's true... I don't think you have to look vulnerable to get harassed on the street. Also this sounds a bit like victim blaming to me.


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## killer b (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Usually if you front it out and project invulnerability and mild boredom with their antics you won't get unduly bothered.


 
nonsense.


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## Ms T (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I don't think that's true... I don't think you have to look vulnerable to get harassed on the street. Also this sounds a bit like victim blaming to me.


Yup. It's my fault because I don't project myself properly?  Bollocks.


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## Badgers (Aug 16, 2013)

S A Villarino said:
			
		

> Have you experienced it? Have you seen it happen to others? How does Brixton square with other areas?



It happens. It is no worse or better than the home counties. It is certainly better than central London.


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

I thought twice about posting that because I know it sounds like victim blaming, but it's my own experience. And I did say 'usually', not 'always'.


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Not entirely. I think the level of self-consciousness or vulnerability you are feeling "can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner" as Trabuquera says. I reckon a man who's looking for entertainment will throw a line out to a woman he thinks he'll get a reaction out of and sadly, some men aggressively pick on a woman who's looking vulnerable. Conversely, I see highly attractive young women walk completely unmolested. Usually if you front it out and project invulnerability and mild boredom with their antics you won't get unduly bothered.


 
The other people whose vulnerability leads to harassment is the beggars.

There are a couple I see in West End now. I asked one why he comes to West End. He said in Brixton he would get harassed and any money he got taken off him. I suppose his "gait and manner" was at fault.

imo picking on someone who looks vulnerable- whether male of female- is bullying.

I recently intervened to stop two teenagers rob a smaller kid of his mobile phone. Clearly the kid had not yet learned how to project invulnerability.


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## boohoo (Aug 16, 2013)

I didn't like looking attractive for a long time because of the attention it got. I'd dress down and cover up. Many of my stories are from years ago so I don't know how relevant they are to situations today. However if young men have seen their older friends and relatives behave that way and get away with it in the past, then perhaps these stories of harassment need to be mentioned to let them know that it's not appropriate.

Seven Sisters was worse for this. I got followed into three shops before the man got the hint that I wasn't a prostitute. (someone must have told him the streets were paved with whores.)  I've also been propositioned at Stamford Hill and Brick Lane but interestingly never Brixton.


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## Ms T (Aug 16, 2013)

Badgers said:


> It happens. It is no worse or better than the home counties. It is certainly better than central London.


In my experience, central London is better than Brixton.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer out of interest are you male or female?


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> imo picking on someone who looks vulnerable- whether male of female- is bullying.
> 
> I recently intervened to stop two teenagers rob a smaller kid of his mobile phone. Clearly the kid had not yet learned how to project invulnerability.


 
I totally agree.


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## Ms T (Aug 16, 2013)

The shocking thing is how young some of the perpetrators are. A boy of about 12 waved a tenner in my face once near Bethnal Green and asked for a blow job.  I know it was bravado in front of his mate but still.  A lot of men really don't realise how prevalent low-level harassment is for women.


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Effrasurfer out of interest are you male or female?


 

I'm female, MrsDarlingsKiss, and I've lived here 25 years.


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## boohoo (Aug 16, 2013)

My favorite not quite harassment story:

I was on my way home and a guy came to chat me up. He was from Jamaica and was a poet and told me about his life. So I was waiting for him to ask when I could see him which he did. My reply was that I had a boyfriend who wouldn't be happy with me meeting other men. I expected him to tell me that the boyfriend "don't need to know". Instead, the gentleman said that he wouldn't want to cause any problems with my relationship and had enjoyed talking to me. he wished me good day and  went on his way.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> I'm female, MrsDarlingsKiss, and I've lived here 25 years.



Well if you've lived here 25 years your opinion is more valid than mine, obvs.


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I've also been propositioned at Stamford Hill and Brick Lane but interestingly never Brixton.


 

I've been propositioned quite politely on Brixton Hill late at night a few years back but that was a case of mistaken identity. No harm no foul.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> I've been propositioned quite politely on Brixton Hill late at night a few years back but that was a case of mistaken identity. No harm no foul.



Not because you look vulnerable then?


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Well if you've lived here 25 years your opinion is more valid than mine, obvs.


 
I suspect you may be being sarcastic here but just in case, no, it's not, it's just my opinion and forgive me for anticipating what I thought might be the next question.


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Not because you look vulnerable then?


 

No, he wasn't harassing me, he was looking for 'business'.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 16, 2013)

not just on the streets mind.  try drinking in one of the brixton pubs in a low cut top on a saturday night.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 16, 2013)

or walking around in the early hours near all the knocking shops on brixton hill.

yuk.


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

boohoo said:


> My favorite not quite harassment story:
> 
> I was on my way home and a guy came to chat me up. He was from Jamaica and was a poet and told me about his life. So I was waiting for him to ask when I could see him which he did. My reply was that I had a boyfriend who wouldn't be happy with me meeting other men. I expected him to tell me that the boyfriend "don't need to know". Instead, the gentleman said that he wouldn't want to cause any problems with my relationship and had enjoyed talking to me. he wished me good day and went on his way.


 

I wouldn't call that not quite harassment, I'd call it not harassment.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

quote="Effrasurfer, post: 12483820, member: 25693"]I suspect you may be being sarcastic here but just in case, no, it's not, it's just my opinion and forgive me for anticipating what I thought might be the next question.[/quote] 

It hadn't occurred to me to ask you how long you've been in Brixton. I don't think that's overly relevant. The OP herself has only been in the area for a short time.



Effrasurfer said:


> No, he wasn't harassing me, he was looking for 'business'.



I would put being asked for business in the category of sexual harassment.


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## Private Storm (Aug 16, 2013)

Has there ever, in the history of mankind, been a bloke that has successful embarked on a relationship of a sexual nature with a woman he has beeped the horn of his white van at and shouted "oi, sexy" at? 

I suspect not. You'd think this would have somehow filtered through over time, but apparently not.


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## Kizmet (Aug 16, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I must remember this little gem next time someone's harassed in the workplace. "Of course part of the problem is the clash between those comfortable in the office and those not so.."



Well, there is a thread in general entitled silent colleague which seems to be specifically about this clash.

So yes, you would do well to remember it.


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2013)

boohoo said:


> My favorite not quite harassment story:
> 
> I was on my way home and a guy came to chat me up. He was from Jamaica and was a poet and told me about his life. So I was waiting for him to ask when I could see him which he did. My reply was that I had a boyfriend who wouldn't be happy with me meeting other men. I expected him to tell me that the boyfriend "don't need to know". Instead, the gentleman said that he wouldn't want to cause any problems with my relationship and had enjoyed talking to me. he wished me good day and went on his way.


 
Slightly off topic. But this irritates me.

I have a female friend who I see very little now as her boyfriend does not approve.

Recently happened again. Someone I used to deliver to I met in street. Had not seen her for a year. We always got on so swapped numbers to stay in touch. Later in day get text saying boyfriend did not approve. Texted back to say I understood.

Why can women not have male friends?


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## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

I am thinking this as I type so it may come out utterly scrambled, so bear with me....  On the power/vulnerability thing, is it about essentially powerless men (because they are inadequate, not sexually desirable generally, do not perceive themselves to be sexually desirable to that woman, because she is very clearly marked as 'belonging' to another man eg pregnant) trying to assert some sort of power and control over women? A kind of dog pissing against a lamppost thing almost. Which may explain the lads in front of friends, picking on women who may not be the 'most attractive' or 'provocatively' dressed- it's not a out a hot girl showing leg, it's about something that is off limits to them and they push back against that powerlessness with crudity and sexual language as it is all they have to assert power? That the 'thing' is a living breathing human female is almost irrelevant (bear with me....) it's almost like keying a car you can't afford.

Linked to young kids saying stuff, they are aware of their sexuality on some level and their masculinity on some level but know they are essentially sexually powerless/useless/wouldn't know what to do with themselves if sex was offered, but it's them starting to assert themselves in an area where they are essentially inadequate and unsure and the only way they know how to do it is abusively.

As I said, sort of thinking aloud, and feel free to flame me. A little bit. But please be gentle


----------



## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> quote="Effrasurfer, post: 12483820, member: 25693"]I
> It hadn't occurred to me to ask you how long you've been in Brixton. I don't think that's overly relevant. The OP herself has only been in the area for a short time.
> 
> I would put being asked for business in the category of sexual harassment.


 

Well, probably we differ there slightly. (Interesting side question: is a prostitute who offers 'business' to a passer by, sexually harassing them? Does it depend at all on how politely they offer?)

Also, I find the fact that the OP has been in the area for a short time and I've been here longer, relevant to the discussion of whether being 'comfortable on the street' has an impact. Personally, I've found that the longer I've lived here, the more comfortable I've felt on the streets, give or take.


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## Vibrant-Hubb (Aug 16, 2013)

"I was on my way home and a guy came to chat me up. He was from Jamaica and was a poet and told me about his life. So I was waiting for him to ask when I could see him which he did. My reply was that I had a boyfriend who wouldn't be happy with me meeting other men. I expected him to tell me that the boyfriend "don't need to know". Instead, the gentleman said that he wouldn't want to cause any problems with my relationship and had enjoyed talking to me. he wished me good day and went on his way"

Isn't that just "a pleasant man chatted me up?"


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasuffer - Yeah but sexual harassment on the street isnt unique to Brixton.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 16, 2013)

I think you are miles off simply because I've seen 'buff' men with chiselled good looks doing the same shit. Not in Brixton, I've only ever been there twice and a man at the bustop called me a pussyole. I was fucking furious. ANYWAY.

Yeah its got shit all to do with inverse feelings of powerlessness. Its a pure dominance thing encouraged by societal attitudes etc


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## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

Private Storm said:


> Has there ever, in the history of mankind, been a bloke that has successful embarked on a relationship of a sexual nature with a woman he has beeped the horn of his white van at and shouted "oi, sexy" at?
> 
> I suspect not. You'd think this would have somehow filtered through over time, but apparently not.


Building on my previous post, does any man that does that actually want sex with the woman in question? Or is it like a dog spraying a lamppost- I'm here, look at me, acknowledge my maleness.

I seem to keep comparing certain types of men to dogs. Unfair on dogs and suggests I have unexplored issues


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## Kizmet (Aug 16, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Err I'm comfortable on the street I just don't appreciate men making unwelcome comments about my tits or fucking me.



Its a bold statement to say one is comfortable on the streets.

In the old days it would be called streetwise... but nowadays people don't seem to use the term. It comes from spending a long time in that environment. A really long time.

Perhaps you were born in a similar kind of street culture and have long experience... maybe, I don't know. Were you? What qualifies you to say you are 'comfortable on the streets'?

I wouldn't go as far as to say I am comfortable on the streets and I am a six foot tall guy.

So perhaps don't be so hasty in getting righteous.


----------



## killer b (Aug 16, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Why can women not have male friends?


they can, cant they? Unless they have an insecure controlling dick for a boyfriend. Then it can be a struggle. But there's your reason.


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## Kizmet (Aug 16, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Is 'the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so' the clash between men and women?



Do you want it to be?


----------



## Manter (Aug 16, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I think you are miles off simply because I've seen 'buff' men with chiselled good looks doing the same shit. Not in Brixton, I've only ever been there twice and a man at the bustop called me a pussyole. I was fucking furious. ANYWAY.
> 
> Yeah its got shit all to do with inverse feelings of powerlessness. Its a pure dominance thing encouraged by societal attitudes etc


I assume that was to me? And yes good point. Buuuut.... Are those buff chiselled happy confident men, or are they insecure in their place in the world and doing a look at me I'm so manly thing? 

Dunno.

Told you I had 't thought it through


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> (Interesting side question: is a prostitute who offers 'business' to a passer by, sexually harassing them? Does it depend at all on how politely they offer?)


 
No I have not felt sexually harassed. Its happened to me in Brixton and Soho.


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 16, 2013)

Manter said:


> I am thinking this as I type so it may come out utterly scrambled, so bear with me.... On the power/vulnerability thing, is it about essentially powerless men (because they are inadequate, not sexually desirable generally, do not perceive themselves to be sexually desirable to that woman, because she is very clearly marked as 'belonging' to another man eg pregnant) trying to assert some sort of power and control over women? A kind of dog pissing against a lamppost thing almost. Which may explain the lads in front of friends, picking on women who may not be the 'most attractive' or 'provocatively' dressed- it's not a out a hot girl showing leg, it's about something that is off limits to them and they push back against that powerlessness with crudity and sexual language as it is all they have to assert power? That the 'thing' is a living breathing human female is almost irrelevant (bear with me....) it's almost like keying a car you can't afford.
> 
> Linked to young kids saying stuff, they are aware of their sexuality on some level and their masculinity on some level but know they are essentially sexually powerless/useless/wouldn't know what to do with themselves if sex was offered, but it's them starting to assert themselves in an area where they are essentially inadequate and unsure and the only way they know how to do it is abusively.
> 
> As I said, sort of thinking aloud, and feel free to flame me. A little bit. But please be gentle


 

Ah the mysteries of the male psyche! Who can tell? If only they could talk!


----------



## weepiper (Aug 17, 2013)

Private Storm said:


> Has there ever, in the history of mankind, been a bloke that has successful embarked on a relationship of a sexual nature with a woman he has beeped the horn of his white van at and shouted "oi, sexy" at?
> 
> I suspect not. You'd think this would have somehow filtered through over time, but apparently not.


 
They're not doing it with the intention of getting laid. They're doing it as a power trip, to get a reaction.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

mrsfran said:


> What does this even mean? What's the link between being "comfortable/uncomfortable on the street" and not being ok with sexual harrassment?



I thought it was fairly clear. I was making a point about cultural differences.

You seem to be focussing on just one bit which I assume is because you want to take offense. Go ahead. Be my guest.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Its a bold statement to say one is comfortable on the streets.
> 
> In the old days it would be called streetwise... but nowadays people don't seem to use the term. It comes from spending a long time in that environment. A really long time.
> 
> ...



Little woman how dare you feel comfortable on the street. I am a big man yes I am and I dont feel comfortable.  Emasculated much?


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Slightly off topic. But this irritates me.
> 
> I have a female friend who I see very little now as her boyfriend does not approve.
> 
> ...


They absolutely can and I do have lots- my two oldest, closest mates are blokes. But I think it takes honesty about the relationships and a secure boyfriend (eg is there a subtext, is it a fuck buddy just waiting for this bf to bugger off so they can return to the status quo, is the friend used to incite sexual jealousy for kicks/manipulation purposes, is there an undeclared/I worked through love thing going on.... All stuff I have seen in my circle of friends at various points!). Men trying to cut their other halves off from other men say fucked up relationship with issues to me. 

In a decent, secure, loving relationship with honesty and sanity on both sides, friends of the other sex are no problem at all in my experience


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Effrasuffer - Yeah but sexual harassment on the street isnt unique to Brixton.


 

I never said it was! As far as I remember, the OP's questions were along the lines of: 1) is it particularly bad in Brixton? 2) anyone else have similar experiences. I am more answering question 2. I don't know much about point 1. because I do most of my walking about locally.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I thought it was fairly clear. I was making a point about cultural differences.
> 
> You seem to be focussing on just one bit which I assume is because you want to take offense. Go ahead. Be my guest.



Yeah we are all racists because we don't like being sexually harrassed. Your one creepy fucker.


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## Vibrant-Hubb (Aug 17, 2013)

If you are a gay, bi or pretty fem looking man you get a mix of "I want to kill you, I want to fuck you".  It can be confusing and dangerous. All good looking Jamaicans I met in the street who wanted to fuck me, I just fucked. The ones who wanted to kill me I asked to fuck me first and hoped they'd forget to kill me. Mostly they forgot. It was the 80s, you know.


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## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Ah the mysteries of the male psyche! Who can tell? If only they could talk!


Next time I get kerb crawled I'll question them... 'Is this behaviour primarily driven by your sexual or social inadequacy, do you think?'


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## Effrasurfer (Aug 17, 2013)

I must be off to bed now but very interesting chat, thanks. Love, chaste hugs and respect to all - female, male, near and far.


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## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Vibrant-Hubb said:


> If you are a gay, bi or pretty fem looking man you get a mix of "I want to kill you, I want to fuck you".  It can be confusing and dangerous. All good looking Jamaicans I met in the street who wanted to fuck me, I just fucked. The ones who wanted to kill me I asked to fuck me first and hoped they'd forget to kill me. Mostly they forgot. It was the 80s, you know.


In Brixton?


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## Private Storm (Aug 17, 2013)

weepiper said:


> They're not doing it with the intention of getting laid. They're doing it as a power trip, to get a reaction.


 
Sorry, not true. When I do it, I am after getting laid. Law of averages says it has to work eventually.


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I thought it was fairly clear. I was making a point about cultural differences.
> 
> You seem to be focussing on just one bit which I assume is because you want to take offense. Go ahead. Be my guest.


 
Cultures are not fixed. Within cultures attitudes towards sexuality are contested within a culture.

As my post with a link to women contesting "eve teasing" in India shows.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

killer b said:


> kismet's campaign to convince us all he's not some kind of creepy sex case forges ahead, i see.



What kind of creepy sex case?

The worst kind? :-D


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## Vibrant-Hubb (Aug 17, 2013)

Yes in Brixton. Mind you I could have remembered it wrong. Come to think of it, it might have been something I saw on TV in the early days of Channel 4.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> I never said it was! As far as I remember, the OP's questions were along the lines of: 1) is it particularly bad in Brixton? 2) anyone else have similar experiences. I am more answering question 2. I don't know much about point 1. because I do most of my walking about locally.


 
When I said street harassment doesn't just happen in brixton i was responding to your post that I have quoted below. Yeah i agree that the longer you live in an area the more you become comfortable with those particular streets but it's not just about brixton... And in relation to sexual harassment the comfortable on the street thing is a red herring... that just devalues and trivialises peoples experiences.



Effrasurfer said:


> Also, I find the fact that the OP has been in the area for a short time and I've been here longer, relevant to the discussion of whether being 'comfortable on the street' has an impact. Personally, I've found that the longer I've lived here, the more comfortable I've felt on the streets, give or take.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Cultures are not fixed. Within cultures attitudes towards sexuality are contested within a culture.
> 
> As my post with a link to women contesting "eve teasing" in India shows.



Agreed. I thought your link elegantly illustrated the kind of culture I was talking about... as did rushy's post earlier.

And when several competing cultures co-exist it becomes a minefield. The streets become a minefield. What in one culture is seen as assertive in another could be aggressive or another vulnerable.

It becomes complicated to know how exactly you are appearing to others.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> And in relation to sexual harassment the comfortable on the street thing is a red herring... that just devalues and trivialises peoples experiences.



It does not at all.

In fact it is you who is trivialising peoples experiences... because the clash of cultures can sometimes explain those experiences.


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> I assume that was to me? And yes good point. Buuuut.... Are those buff chiselled happy confident men, or are they insecure in their place in the world and doing a look at me I'm so manly thing?
> 
> Dunno.
> 
> Told you I had 't thought it through


 
Both.

Both masculinity and femininity are not things men and women are born with. They are learnt. Something Freud , for all his faults, saw. 

So insecurity is part of masculinity and femininity. Whether you are buff or not.


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## weepiper (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> It does not at all.
> 
> In fact it is you who is trivialising peoples experiences... because the clash of cultures can sometimes explain those experiences.


 

Oh, Kizmet telling a woman what her experience is. What a surprise.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Little woman how dare you feel comfortable on the street. I am a big man yes I am and I dont feel comfortable.  Emasculated much?



You can dare all you like. It doesn't affect me.

I just think you don't really know what it means.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> It does not at all.
> 
> In fact it is you who is trivialising peoples experiences... because the clash of cultures can sometimes explain those experiences.


 
It sounds like you saying that it's ok for some men to cat call because it's their culture?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Its a bold statement to say one is comfortable on the streets.
> 
> In the old days it would be called streetwise... but nowadays people don't seem to use the term. It comes from spending a long time in that environment. A really long time.
> 
> ...


 


Kizmet said:


> You can dare all you like. It doesn't affect me.
> 
> I just think you don't really know what it means.


 
Are you drunk?


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Both.
> 
> Both masculinity and femininity are not things men and women are born with. They are learnt. Something Freud , for all his faults, saw.
> 
> So insecurity is part of masculinity and femininity. Whether you are buff or not.


I really need to think this through more, don't I? 

I sort of know what I am getting at but can't quite figure out how to say it.... its something to do with the insecurity/inadequacy thing.  The difference between 'I think you're beautiful' (or even 'I think you're beautiful and I don't suppose you'd sleep with me') and at the other end of the spectrum 'show us your tits' through to 'you know you fucking want a real man, bitch' (particularly as so often shouted from a place of 'safety'- from a car, scaffolding, group of mates) seems to me to be about power, but not men's power over women, necessarily, more the absence of men's power.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Oh, Kizmet telling a woman what her experience is. What a surprise.



Oh kizmet, the bad guy again.. saying something horrid to someone. and being all woman hating again!

You know, one day when you actually do get a mysoginist on here I think a number of you will literally explode!

In the meantime keep flinging bullshit accusations around at people just putting forward fairly obvious opinions and feeling all big and clever about yourselves.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Oh kizmet, the bad guy again.. saying something horrid to someone. and being all woman hating again!
> 
> You know, one day when you actually do get a mysoginist on here I think a number of you will literally explode!
> 
> In the meantime keep flinging bullshit accusations around at people just putting forward fairly obvious opinions and feeling all big and clever about yourselves.


 

Or, you could just fuck off.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> It sounds like you saying that it's ok for some men to cat call because it's their culture?



Where did I say it was ok?


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Are you drunk?



No. But It would be nice to see a conversation wander into difficult and controversial territory once in a while without everyone having to apologize in advance or think twice before posting just to avoid having someone go all pissy at them for no reason.


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> seems to me to be about power, but not men's power over women, necessarily, more the absence of men's power.


 
You are correct. I have not thought it through either. I do not know if its possible to completely.

Its about fear of femininity. This gets turned into aggression. Harassment is about control. Its like racism which is fear of the other.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Or, you could just fuck off.



Tell you what... you stop stalking me... put me on ignore and it will be almost exactly the same as if I had fucked off.

And then I won't have to deal with your self-obsessed crap again.

Win-win.


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> You are correct. I have not thought it through either. I do not know if its possible to completely.
> 
> *Its about fear of femininity. This gets turned into aggression. Harassment is about control. Its like racism which is fear of the other.*


yes, well put.


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Agreed. I thought your link elegantly illustrated the kind of culture I was talking about... as did rushy's post earlier.
> 
> And when several competing cultures co-exist it becomes a minefield. The streets become a minefield. What in one culture is seen as assertive in another could be aggressive or another vulnerable.
> 
> It becomes complicated to know how exactly you are appearing to others.


 
I see you are popular. 

I think you miss my point. I was arguing that there is a clash within cultures. Not a clash of cultures. Going down the road of clash of cultures leads to Huntington view.

Societies do not have fixed cultures. Over last hundred years our society has changed dramatically. Women now have the vote and gays can have civil partnerships. Social attitudes have changed.

However I would not say that this is inevitable. Take Iran. Secular progressive government in 50s now replaced by Theocracy that has set back womens rights.

However you are correct to say streets can be a minefield. Urbanization/Capitalism ( they are linked in most societies) does throw together people in a way that forces change and conflict. Not necessarily a bad thing.


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## killer b (Aug 17, 2013)

Weird creepy racist bullshit. Jesus Christ kismet.


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis.


 
1274 hits on this thread in 6 hours.

Pretty good going for new poster.

Welcome to Urban. 

BTW full and frank discussions are the norm here.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I see you are popular.



haterz be hatin'



> I think you miss my point. I was arguing that there is a clash within cultures. Not a clash of cultures. Going down the road of clash of cultures leads to Huntington view.
> 
> Societies do not have fixed cultures. Over last hundred years our society has changed dramatically. Women now have the vote and gays can have civil partnerships. Social attitudes have changed.
> 
> However I would not say that this is inevitable. Take Iran. Secular progressive government in 50s now replaced by Theocracy that has set back womens rights.



That's the thing... I didn't say clash of cultures... I mentioned communality of cultures - some things that are common to street cultures around the world.

In this way your link illustrated my point about the sometimes extremely sexist behaviours that are common.

The clash I mentioned comes between those who are accustomed to those cultures and those who are not. This point was illustrated nicely by both rushy and effrasurfer.



> However you are correct to say streets can be a minefield. Urbanization/Capitalism ( they are linked in most societies) does throw together people in a way that forces change and conflict. Not necessarily a bad thing.



Brixton can be a shock to the system for someone from say.... Surrey or an Essex village.


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## Gramsci (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> That's the thing... I didn't say clash of cultures... I mentioned communality of cultures - some things that are common to street cultures around the world.


 
You said "competing" not "communality".



> And when several competing cultures co-exist it becomes a minefield. The streets become a minefield. What in one culture is seen as assertive in another could be aggressive or another vulnerable.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

killer b said:


> Weird creepy racist bullshit. Jesus Christ kismet.



And to make matters worse I think I may have just shagged your mum...

:-(


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> You said "competing" not "communality".



I did in that post to you in reference to the streets of brixton... 

However in the original post I was talking about commonalities of culture leading to a certain recurring behaviour. two related but slightly different points.


----------



## chavezcat (Aug 17, 2013)

I've lived here for about 9 years, I actually think what the hell, thanks for sharing your opinion that I look okay in the middle of a weekday afternoon or whatever (?). I've never felt threatened or touched or anything. And I don't think it has ever been anything but a gentle appreciation.

that being said, I had my butt groped / quickly goosed quite hard in a crowded National Gallery exhibition. That was deeply unpleasant and spoiled the exhibition for me.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

After a skim read of the thread...

Regarding OP, my experience has not been quite so bad, but in the last 11 years I've definitely been verbally hassled on the street (sometimes with an ignoring then leading to abuse), on rarer occasions groped, and once wanked at. It seemed to happen more when I was younger, or if I'm dressed in a way that perhaps makes me look a bit younger. I always thought this was more to so with my younger self being perceived as more vulnerable and less able to stand up to shit than my 30s self, if that makes sense? Certainly I spent most of my mid-late 20s in jeans and t-shirt so I certainly wasn't glamming it up more. Mind you, I did get "appreciative" comments from men when on my way to my wedding past year. 

And Kizmet, you're coming across as apologist and not a little creepy. Stop it.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 17, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> I wouldn't call that not quite harassment, I'd call it not harassment.


 
i didn't want someone talking to me on the way home uninvited. Having been shouted at by one guy who I wouldn't give my phone number to and had someone not let me get pass them when I wouldn't give my number to them, I didn't feel that I could ignore this guy with out fear of being intimidated or threatened by him. I was a naive teen back then with very strict parents.


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## Greebo (Aug 17, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Not entirely. I think the level of self-consciousness or vulnerability you are feeling "can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner" as Trabuquera says. I reckon a man who's looking for entertainment will throw a line out to a woman he thinks he'll get a reaction out of and sadly, some men aggressively pick on a woman who's looking vulnerable.<snip>


 
I don't look vulnerable or self-conscious but still get it - next!


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

boohoo said:


> i didn't want someone talking to me on the way home uninvited. Having been shouted at by one guy who I wouldn't give my phone number to and had someone not let me get pass them when I wouldn't give my number to them, I didn't feel that I could ignore this guy with out fear of being intimidated or threatened by him. I was a naive teen back then with very strict parents.


Yeah, I've also been approached by adult men for more genuine compliments or more respectful chattings up from the age of 15 to now. These days I take genuine compliments with a smile in the nature they're intended. However, I was always a mix of flattered and creeped out in my teens. Looking back on it, what the fuck were 30 something men doing chatting up a 15/16/17 year old girl, particularly one who probably looked younger than her years? That's creepy power dynamic shit going on right there.


----------



## Cloo (Aug 17, 2013)

I personally don't think a tooted horn and a 'oi sexy' is about power; I think the doofus reckons he's giving you a compliment.  Obviously a 'show us yer tits' or following up a comment with a threat or sexist insult is totally not on.

Otoh, after reading everydaysexism I realise it may take on  different quality if it happens a lot. I've never experienced much harassment ( I have this theory that being short haired all my adult life has something to do with it, which will doubtless be refuted by someone short haired in a minute!   )


----------



## Ms T (Aug 17, 2013)

I thought recently that I might be reaching the "invisible" stage of middle-age. But I think it was just a pre-summer lull! Now the layers are off it's just the same as it's been since I was a teenager.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

Cloo said:


> I personally don't think a *tooted horn* and a 'oi sexy' is about power; I think the doofus reckons he's giving you a compliment. Obviously a 'show us yer tits' or following up a comment with a threat or sexist insult is totally not on.


I dunno, there's still power there, like the person feels they have sufficient power to enforce their public "compliment". I bolded the horn thing as when it happens in a car, there's already an extra added power element there, solely from being in a car. 

Cars generally have a lot more power over cyclists and peds, and that doesn't just come from being in several tons of metal. Cars can slow down and shout abuse and then speed off again in a way those other road users can't. They've got this loud horn which they can misuse as obnoxiously as they like, they can creep behind or beside you, they can even very physically threaten you off the road or threaten to drag you in. Obviously the majority of car drivers don't do this because they're not wankers, but the medium gives you that potential power. So I think a horn toot is actually quite an aggressive way of showing their "compliment", and I do find it difficult to believe that the tooters don't recognise that. 

The other thing that comes to mind is an experience when I was 18 and walking home from a pub shift, and a group of men in their car decided to shout "oi sexy" or something at me. In those days I was more up for making a stand, so I flipped the bird as they went past. The car then stopped and started reversing directly at me with the doors opening. I almost shat myself  Thankfully they were just doing it to fuck with me, and drove off laughing their heads off. But whilst it probably would have been pretty awful had they just been four pedestrians, definitely the addition of the car added to the power. 

Rather sadly, it was due to that and a similar incident later that year why I stopped asserting myself in response to these sorts of experiences


----------



## JimW (Aug 17, 2013)

In my estimation, not having done it myself but having worked with blokes who do, it can have a "sexual" motive but that only begs the question about sexual attitudes for some and how they get mixed up with power (maybe that's what everyone else is saying anyway, if so ignore me!). Also knew one chancer who would try it on but not just in any situation - reckon he was picking up on a dynamic rather than scattershot any woman at all  (we used to go round concreting drives and this workmate got off with householders in the area we were working fairly regularly). Suspect there's another dynamic again with groups of lads, showing off to your mates being more important, but again telling why you would choose that way to do it.


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## Callie (Aug 17, 2013)

I think its being mentioned on this type of thread before but I think younger women get approached/comments a lot more than say women 20 (?)+, for me this is worrying. Thats not to say it doesnt happen to women over 20 but I think its more prevalent.

Youre asking on the whole an adult audience here OP but If you can it might be interesting to ask a teen audience how they find it too?

I also do not think this is unique to Brixton in any way, shape or form.


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## stethoscope (Aug 17, 2013)

...


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I dunno, there's still power there, like the person feels they have sufficient power to enforce their public "compliment". I bolded the horn thing as when it happens in a car, there's already an extra added power element there, solely from being in a car.
> 
> Cars generally have a lot more power over cyclists and peds, and that doesn't just come from being in several tons of metal. Cars can slow down and shout abuse and then speed off again in a way those other road users can't. They've got this loud horn which they can misuse as obnoxiously as they like, they can creep behind or beside you, they can even very physically threaten you off the road or threaten to drag you in. Obviously the majority of car drivers don't do this because they're not wankers, but the medium gives you that potential power. So I think a horn toot is actually quite an aggressive way of showing their "compliment", and I do find it difficult to believe that the tooters don't recognise that.
> 
> ...


 


Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm really sorry to hear that. In many ways it's difficult to know how to respond: flip out and they get the satisfaction of a reaction, ignore them and they can turn nasty. 

The car dynamic is so cowardly and does add an element of threat.


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## RubyToogood (Aug 17, 2013)

I always found the general level of street harassment to be less in Brixton, and London generally, than it was when I was living in Southampton (I moved back a couple of decades ago). I also found Southampton friendlier though, as in people would chat to you on buses etc a lot more. So this made me wonder if it was partly about a different expectation of how much interaction you would have with strangers.

I don't get much of it now, which is probably partly age. The odd comment/compliment.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

Callie said:


> I think its being mentioned on this type of thread before but I think younger women get approached/comments a lot more than say women 20 (?)+, for me this is worrying. Thats not to say it doesnt happen to women over 20 but I think its more prevalent.
> 
> Youre asking on the whole an adult audience here OP but If you can it might be interesting to ask a teen audience how they find it too?
> 
> I also do not think this is unique to Brixton in any way, shape or form.


 

Would definitely be interesting to get the perspective of teens. Anyone have a connection with a local school?

Yes, frequency and intensity of street harassment does seem to vary a lot and can't be pinpointed to a location, especially as we don't have any stats as most of this just doesn't get officially reported. 

As I hang around Brixton the most on my own, this is where I get harassed most. The problem is that it's everywhere and the fact that so many people on this thread have had to modify their behaviour to mitigate this crap just isn't fair.


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## stuff_it (Aug 17, 2013)

Been out in Brixton a fair bit over the years. Never really had a problem.*shrug*


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

That wasn't Brixton btw S A Villarino, that was where I grew up (Hollingdean district of Brighton). Tbh I think I would agree with some of the comments about finding Brixton to not actually be quite as bad as some other places in London, the UK, or indeed the world. Thanks for your concern though


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> As I hang around Brixton the most on my own, this is where I get harassed most. The problem is that it's everywhere and the fact that so many people on this thread have had to modify their behaviour to mitigate this crap just isn't fair.


Well, this is probably why you're noticing it more here.  Generally IME these men don't generally do it to groups of women, preferring to target those on their own. Which supports it being largely a power thing.


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## girasol (Aug 17, 2013)

mmm, I must be very ugly or something, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I was approached in the street, or shouted at. Very few indeed. On one of them I was about to be attacked from behind (or at least that's what it felt like was about to happen) but I turned around and shouted so loudly the man did a 180 degree turn and walked the other way.

Then there was this one time in Brazil when a fucking paedo stopped me to ask for directions and the touched me down there then he just fucked off.  I was 11.  Maybe I developed some kind of invisibility cloak after that...


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## girasol (Aug 17, 2013)

Teenage girls get it really bad by the way, my teenage son tells me it happens to his friends almost daily. I do think they prey on the very young and naive.


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## stuff_it (Aug 17, 2013)

Cloo said:


> I personally don't think a tooted horn and a 'oi sexy' is about power<snip>


TBH I use thing like that and builder's wolf whistles to test out new going out clothes.


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## silverfish (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Slightly off topic. But this irritates me.
> 
> I have a female friend who I see very little now as her boyfriend does not approve.
> 
> ...


 
derail warning


I had this recently with a female best friend I've had for 24 years!!! I used to live at her parents when I got kicked out of home at 16/17

She has shook off/rotated through all her friends and aquaintances over the last 24 years, I have been the only constant in her life really, through all her boyfriends, good times and bad. I had keys to her house the lot.

Enter stage left, short, neurotic fuck bag of a boyfriend, she seems to spend most her time holding/propping him up, practically with his work and psychologically. He always seemed a bit spiky but when she let me stay at her house as I was on a course in london he lost it and started issuing ultimatums

defriended off face book because communicating with her sends him off, not seen her for three months, no comms

I can appreciate he is a cunt bag, I can't believe she hasn't managed his shit in regard to me better, very disappointing

CARRY ON


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Well, this is probably why you're noticing it more here.  Generally IME these men don't generally do it to groups of women, preferring to target those on their own. Which supports it being largely a power thing.



Very oddly, I was approached by a man when I was with my partner recently. He was undressing me with his eyes and saying things like you are so sexy in a quiet voice as he passed. My boyfriend didn't spot what was going on at first.  I stopped turned around and said something along tje lines of mate I'm with my boyfriend! I felt frustrated by the situation and with myself because I felt like I had effectively said hands off I'm someone else's property.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Very oddly, I was approached by a man when I was with my partner recently. He was undressing me with his eyes and saying things like you are so sexy in a quiet voice as he passed. My boyfriend didn't spot what was going on at first. I stopped turned around and said something along tje lines of mate I'm with my boyfriend! I felt frustrated by the situation and with myself because I felt like I had effectively said hands off I'm someone else's property.




Some guy managed to squeeze my boob when I was walking down the street with Crispy and dirtyfruit a few years ago. In a strange way it probably felt worse because my partner was right there. During that incident I didn't say anything, partly because I didn't want to cause any trouble, but partly because tbh it did make me feel quite shamed, and it took a few days for me to even be able to tell Crispy.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

I don't think these events are anything to do with actual "attractiveness" tbh. They may happen a bit more if someone's glammed up, but they certainly also happen to people dressed very casually. I agree with girasol and Callie that I think younger girls get this a lot, lot worse, which also ties into my experience over the years.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Some guy managed to squeeze my boob when I was walking down the street with Crispy and dirtyfruit a few years ago. In a strange way it probably felt worse because my partner was right there. During that incident I didn't say anything, partly because I didn't want to cause any trouble, but partly because tbh it did make me feel quite shamed, and it took a few days for me to even be able to tell Crispy.



Stuff like that makes me so cross and sad. Esp that we are the ones that feel the shame... Some ppl are such pricks


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> That wasn't Brixton btw S A Villarino, that was where I grew up (Hollingdean district of Brighton). Tbh I think I would agree with some of the comments about finding Brixton to not actually be quite as bad as some other places in London, the UK, or indeed the world. Thanks for your concern though


 

The perception of street harassment and place is subjective, so while I experience it as worse in Brixton compared to Pimlico, another will say Seven Sisters is worse than Brixton etc. What binds us altogether is the fact that it happens to so many of us everywhere. In spite of the fact that some people will say 'it's not as bad in Brixton', people still feel need to stop wearing red lipstick, skirts, change where they walk, feel scared of people knowing where they live etc. etc. No cat caller has ever had to do something like that. Brixton may not be the "worst" place in terms of extreme threatening behaviour but it's the frequent 'hey sexy', 'oi, oi, oi' comments that build up, filling simple journeys with dread. I know not every Brixtonite experiences that but if you do, it's not a comfort to say it's not as bad as X...That just proves that sexual harassment is a problem everywhere and there are very few official means of dealing with the problem.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Re feelings of dread.. It's more of a range of feelings from oh right here we go again, almost resigned to it, to feeling pretty cross. On the odd occasion I feel shame and embarrassment,  although those types of responses featured much more often for me in the past. Partly to do with my dick head ex who said that there was obviously something about me that made these incidents happen. His reasoning was that he knew lots of women and none of them told him about things like this happening.  Er that's because they going out with you, prick.


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## Ms T (Aug 17, 2013)

I do feel pretty resigned to it tbh.  The other weekend I was walking to the tube on my way to work at 7am and a chap in a car slowed right down, practically stopped, and offered me a lift.  I refused, obviously, and carried on walking, fast.  There was nobody around which made me feel uncomfortable but he moved off and all was well.  I didn't think that much of it but stupidly mentioned it to my boyfriend later in the day, who got really angry and started talking about calling the police.  I felt this was an over-reaction, but I also felt annoyed in retrospect that a stranger would feel that this was an appropriate, unthreatening thing to do to a woman on her own.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Re feelings of dread.. It's more of a range of feelings from oh right here we go again, almost resigned to it, to feeling pretty cross. On the odd occasion I feel shame and embarrassment, although those types of responses featured much more often for me in the past. Partly to do with my dick head ex who said that there was obviously something about me that made these incidents happen. His reasoning was that he knew lots of women and none of them told him about things like this happening. Er that's because they going out with you, prick.


 

I think "feeling resigned to it" is the most dangerous reaction you can have. I was horrified when I tried to justify this happening by saying, "Well, I guess it's just part of being a woman. What else can you expect..."

God, your ex sounds like a monster. It's pretty difficult talking about this to people, some of whom just say 'take it as a compliment...' (and accuse you of secretly bragging) or 'don't pay any attention to it, they're just silly boys...'  

So half the struggle is keeping sane and recognising that it is a problem in the first place...


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

Being resigned is a coping strategy though. It's not necessarily the most helpful one (both for individuals or women in general), but it makes an experience just a nuisance rather than something more emotionally unpleasant, or even something that escalates into something dangerous. 

For example, I've never experienced sexual harassment like I experienced on a three week holiday to India - usually bum pinching in busy streets with unknown perpetrators quickly walking off. My female friend and I, in an attempt I guess to detoxify the experience, ended up having an almost jokey "competition" to see who it happened to the most. Now I'd like to be clear that we didn't want our bums to be pinched at all, but it happened, in a situation where we had no right of reply, and well, there has to be some way of coping with it else you just go a bit potty.

Of course another more helpful coping strategy is, in other environments, to be verbal about these experiences and their impact, in the hope that some people might start to see things a bit differently.


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## Ms T (Aug 17, 2013)

The "everyday sexism" project I think has been quite useful in spreading the message that women shouldn't just be resigned to it, and should speak out against it.  The "take it as a compliment" justification is particularly annoying.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

For me, I think it depends on the type of harassment that occurs. If it a hello sexy then im more likely to metaphoricaly shrug and carry on. If the comments are explicit that's why I am more likely to challenge the person. 

You're right AS it is very much a coping strategy. But being resigned to it happening to me doesn't mean that im resigned to it women in general ifyswim. And I'm very much for talking about it, challenging it and supporting others who experience this behaviour.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> After a skim read of the thread...
> 
> .....
> 
> And Kizmet, you're coming across as apologist and not a little creepy. Stop it.



I haven't talked about sexual harassment at all... not to apologize for it or to deny it.

What I talked about was Brixton and some of the environmental factors I have noticed there in common with other areas that I have seen with high instances of harassment, street violence and crime.

Now I have 2 beautiful daughters who are still young enough to not be often confronted by overt sexual harassment... but I fear they will and it is important for me to understand as much as I can about situations and environments so I can try and help them as much as possible.

So I'd like to have discussions with thoughtful, experienced and open-minded people about all sorts of related issues.

Now if that comes across to some self-obsessed idiots as being creepy or an apologist then I guess that's just how it has to be.

I will not cover my posts in apologies and caveats to try and avoid getting into arguments with arseholes looking for an excuse to be righteous. I shouldn't have to. No one should have to.

As increasingly common on urban this is about a smallish group of regular posters trying to control what is discussed and how... that is not what urban is for. It isn't meant to be a popularity contest.

And here you go jumping down my throat for something I didn't say just because your long term poster mates say I said it.

That's what you get for skim reading a thread.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

I read your posts fine Kizmet.


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## Callie (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Now I have 2 beautiful daughters who are still young enough to not be often confronted by overt sexual harassment... but I fear they will and it is important for me to understand as much as I can about situations and environments so I can try and help them as much as possible.


 
How old are your daughters?


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:
			
		

> The perception of street harassment and place is subjective, so while I experience it as worse in Brixton compared to Pimlico, another will say Seven Sisters is worse than Brixton etc. What binds us altogether is the fact that it happens to so many of us everywhere. In spite of the fact that some people will say 'it's not as bad in Brixton', people still feel need to stop wearing red lipstick, skirts, change where they walk, feel scared of people knowing where they live etc. etc. No cat caller has ever had to do something like that. Brixton may not be the "worst" place in terms of extreme threatening behaviour but it's the frequent 'hey sexy', 'oi, oi, oi' comments that build up, filling simple journeys with dread. I know not every Brixtonite experiences that but if you do, it's not a comfort to say it's not as bad as X...That just proves that sexual harassment is a problem everywhere and there are very few official means of dealing with the problem.



I agree with this. 
Over the years I have lived here, I have had a about 4 or 5 more scary things happen in terms of the op (more than just saying "alright darlin" iyswim), but it happened in SE1 too when I lived there. 
The only place I didn't experience it was NW11 but I think that's coz I was only there for a few months. 
I think we are in danger of making it look like brixton is worse than it is for this, when you're not making reasoned comparisons to other places with similar demographics for all kinds of things. 
Just imho though.


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

I quoted the wrong post and confused myself now


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I read your posts fine Kizmet.



You can say you do... you can convince yourself you do but its fairly obvious that you don't.

on one hand you say you skimmed the thread but on the other you say you understood all the different subtleties.... that's inconsistent. You can't have it both ways.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Callie said:


> How old are your daughters?



Eldest is just about to turn 12 and the youngest is just 5.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I quoted the wrong post and confused myself now


 

which post were you trying to quote? I guess there are two strands here: 1) low level but frequent harassment that accumulates into a general sense of having your space invaded 2) infrequent but serious examples of sexual harassment bordering-on-assault which has a physical dimension.

In many ways, I'm interested in the former. Brixton is worse for me when it comes to casual street harassment but I've experienced worse and more serious forms of harassment outside of Brixton. Like others on this thread, I have to resign myself to the fact that this is just part of living here no matter how wrong it is objectively, I have to accept and expect it. 

So you can concurrently believe that Brixton has a bigger problem with casual street harassment but less worse when it comes to sexual assault. The question is just whether that's true or not.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Brixton may not be the "worst" place in terms of extreme threatening behaviour but it's the frequent 'hey sexy', 'oi, oi, oi' comments that build up, filling simple journeys with dread. I know not every Brixtonite experiences that but if you do, it's not a comfort to say it's not as bad as X...


I think people are saying this because that is what your article is about, the particular experience of harassment in Brixton rather than in general. 
It's not justifiable or acceptable in any postcode but you might argue that the tone or character of this street harassment changes from place to place, I certainly feel a different sort of gaze on me in the City from that in Brixton or in Islington. Perhaps people who live in Brixton or have done so for a while find the tone less confrontational or intimidating because, as Agent Sparrow says, they have a better idea of what to expect.

As for me, I don't experience much street harassment anymore but it was a predictable, daily occurrence before I had children. It seems to me that you either become invisible or you're not free game anymore because you represent something else to men once you have kids. It's shitty on every side.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

I haven't resigned my self to it as part of living in Brixton at all. It's more about what comes from being female pretty much whereever you are.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> You can say you do... you can convince yourself you do but its fairly obvious that you don't.
> 
> on one hand you say you skimmed the thread but on the other you say you understood all the different subtleties.... that's inconsistent. You can't have it both ways.


Yeah, because you obviously know my experience better than I do. 

If you really want to know I read the thread fully last night before I went to bed at around 12:30am, decided that getting involved in an argument would not be conducive to sleep, and skim read what I had missed this morning before posting. As I said, I read enough of your posts fine, thank you. Also tbf it's not entirely dissimilar in tone to other stuff you write. 

If you really feel that people keep misinterpreting you then to a degree I feel for you, that must be frustrating. But do you not stop to think about how and why so many people make the same "misinterpretations", and maybe it might be a damn good idea to examine why?


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

What shifty says. You are asking about Brixton so people are, mostly,  talking about Brixton.  Also agree that there is something about different types of harassment in different areas.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Perhaps people who live in Brixton or have done so for a while find the tone less confrontational or intimidating because, as Agent Sparrow says, they have a better idea of what to expect.


Ooo, if I came across as saying that it wasn't exactly what I meant. Just that in regards to frequency and severity, I personally have found other places worse or equivalent rather than Brixton being a particular hotspot. I think somebody else made the comment about feeling comfortable in an area perhaps making the experiences less difficult to cope with.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Now I have 2 beautiful daughters who are still young enough to not be often confronted by overt sexual harassment... but I fear they will and it is important for me to understand as much as I can about situations and environments so I can try and help them as much as possible.


If one of your daughters came to you asking why would a man shout crude comments to her from a car window or why do the boys in school pinch her bottom or feel her up in the corridor (as frequently happens in secondary school), I hope to god you won't tell her that its because she must seem vulnerable and that vulnerability marks her as a target. 
No child or woman should have to toughen up to ward off the unsolicited sexual attentions of men and being streetwise does not provide you with a force field. The problem is not the demeanour of the woman as you seem to suggest but the act, the behaviour of the perpetrator.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I haven't resigned my self to it as part of living in Brixton at all. It's more about what comes from being female pretty much whereever you are.


 

I know that every other time I leave my house that I'll get a comment in Brixton. It's inevitable. I've lived elsewhere in the UK & London but I've never thought it was inevitable. Yes, types of harassment are worse in other parts of London but what I find specific to Brixton is its consistent low level frequency.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

As an aside, some of the harassment I've had in Camberwell has been quite creative in its efforts! Maybe there's an untapped source of potential poets and artists in Camberwell, who frustrated in not having found their calling, offload those frustrations by harassing women.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Ooo, if I came across as saying that it wasn't exactly what I meant. Just that in regards to frequency and severity, I personally have found other places worse or equivalent rather than Brixton being a particular hotspot. I think somebody else made the comment about feeling comfortable in an area perhaps making the experiences less difficult to cope with.


Sorry, I meant what you said about the bum pinching in India and it being less shocking etc.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 17, 2013)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Sorry, I meant what you said about the bum pinching in India and it being less shocking etc.


Ah yes. It is interesting what leads to something feeling more threatening than another thing. I definitely had a different way of processing it than I would have done over here.


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## sparkybird (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm a female trades person and work on building sites occasionally where a low level of harassment is pretty much the norm - even if they pretend otherwise. TBH I just have to ignore it or I'd never get any work done. I have found over the years that giving back as good as you get soon shuts them up

along the lines of
"Oi darling, come over here and have a go on my power tool...."
Me " sorry love, I don't bother with ones THAT small...."

So far, thankfully, nothing more than this sort of pathetic stuff

I don't think this sort of thing is restricted to Brixton - it's worldwide!


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> I know that every other time I leave my house that I'll get a comment in Brixton. It's inevitable. I've lived elsewhere in the UK & London but I've never thought it was inevitable. Yes, types of harassment are worse in other parts of London but what I find specific to Brixton is its consistent low level frequency.



I kept a diary of incidents as part of tje study that I took part in. Maybe you could do something similar for your article?


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Yeah, because you obviously know my experience better than I do.



There you go again... turning it into "you know my experiences" claptrap.

I don't have to know your experiences to know when you're talking inconsistent bollocks.



> If you really want to know I read the thread fully last night before I went to bed at around 12:30am, decided that getting involved in an argument would not be conducive to sleep, and skim read what I had missed this morning before posting.



That's not what you said before.



> As I said, I read enough of your posts fine, thank you. Also tbf it's not entirely dissimilar in tone to other stuff you write.
> 
> If you really feel that people keep misinterpreting you then to a degree I feel for you, that must be frustrating. But do you not stop to think about how and why so many people make the same "misinterpretations", and maybe it might be a damn good idea to examine why?



I have examined why. There is no coincidence that almost all the people who "misinterpreted me" are the same few posters over and over again. A smallish group of long term posters and some desperate to impress newbies who are also not coincidently some of the same posters involved in the "pm conversation" row.

I have examined it a lot and the conclusions aren't pretty for a lot of these people... if you like I could explain it further but then will be disrupting this thread. Which I'm going to be accused of anyway even though its clear that the disruption is from the same few posters trying to control the discussion.

Its all very predictable and yes, you're right, sometimes frustrating.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

India broke me and that's where I lost all tolerance for supposedly 'trivial' forms of sexual harassment. 6 weeks of constant staring, comments, pussy cat noises, following, 'bumping into' and occasional groping (all in front of my boyfriend). It's why I'm very conscious of how damaging frequent, but 'annoying', comments can be and why I find it more difficult to shrug this kind of thing off now than I did 5 years ago.


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## killer b (Aug 17, 2013)

Fuck you kismet. I keep on giving you abuse for posting creepy shit because you keep posting creepy shit. If you dont like it, then stop posting it. That's the only conclusion to be drawn.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> If one of your daughters came to you asking why would a man shout crude comments to her from a car window or why do the boys in school pinch her bottom or feel her up in the corridor (as frequently happens in secondary school), I hope to god you won't tell her that its because she must seem vulnerable and that vulnerability marks her as a target.



I didn't mention vulnerable at all. I was very specific to mention uncomfortable. Because anyone can be made to feel uncomfortable without them having to be vulnerable.



> No child or woman should have to toughen up to ward off the unsolicited sexual attentions of men and being streetwise does not provide you with a force field. The problem is not the demeanour of the woman as you seem to suggest but the act, the behaviour of the perpetrator.



Again I never suggested the problem was the demeanor of women. Others said I did but you clearly would prefer to believe them rather than check for yourself.

None of my comments were specifically related to women at all... since I believe that this environment is also more difficult for men.

That's why I wanted to talk about the environment itself. Ie Brixton.


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Eta: Can't be bothered


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## Callie (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Eldest is just about to turn 12 and the youngest is just 5.


I hate to say this but I think 12 is well within the age of being exposed to this sort of thing assuming she goes out alone/to meet friends etc without an adult. Might be interesting/worth discussing this sort of thing and how she would/should react to it.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

killer b said:


> Fuck you kismet. I keep on giving you abuse for posting creepy shit because you keep posting creepy shit. If you dont like it, then stop posting it. That's the only conclusion to be drawn.



I don't mind if you think its creepy. You can think anything that you like. 

I only mind when you prevent a discussion from entering difficult subjects just because you get a righteous hard-on everytime I post.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Callie said:


> I hate to say this but I think 12 is well within the age of being exposed to this sort of thing assuming she goes out alone/to meet friends etc without an adult. Might be interesting/worth discussing this sort of thing and how she would/should react to it.



We have started to discuss it. And one of her recurring themes is why it happens to some people and not others... 

... this is not easy to understand or explain and I think its a good question. Hence my thoughts relating to environment and cultures.


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## Callie (Aug 17, 2013)

heh sorry youre hooked on this environment and culture thing, im not really thinking about the whys and the wherefores. No adult ever really spoke to me about this casual, mildly (?) sexual interaction with older, strange males and what it means and why it happens. its good that you can/do talk to your girls about it.

what does she mean that it happens to some people not others? boys vs girls??


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## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I didn't mention vulnerable at all. I was very specific to mention uncomfortable. Because anyone can be made to feel uncomfortable without them having to be vulnerable.


You're quite right, my mistake. Perhaps you might replace the word vulnerable with uncomfortable and answer my question?




> Again I never suggested the problem was the demeanor of women. Others said I did but you clearly would prefer to believe them rather than check for yourself.
> 
> None of my comments were specifically related to women at all... since I believe that this environment is also more difficult for men.
> 
> That's why I wanted to talk about the environment itself. Ie Brixton.


Firstly, I did read your post and this is my interpretation of it. Do not presume that I am incapable of forming my own opinion as I always give a personal response, not tainted by the politics of the board which you seem to feel is conspiring against you.
Your post, in response to a question about the sexual harassment of women, did suggest that it was the demeanour of women uncomfortable in 'thriving street culture' which somehow marked them as a target. That wasmy interpretation of your comments and though you've had ample time to clarify what you meant but you choose not to, instead being supercilliously dismissve of the people who have responded to you and their 'claptrap'.
Perhaps you have something interesting to say about Brixton, so say it. But this was a thread about sexual harassment of women and, as you freely admit, you've made no positive contribution to the discussion. If you want to discuss the masculinity and the 'thriving street culture' of Brixton then go start a thread about it and stop ruining this one.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Hence my thoughts relating to environment and cultures.


What thoughts? You haven't said anything particular or significant about environment and cultures. SPIT IT OUT


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Would definitely be interesting to get the perspective of teens. Anyone have a connection with a local school?


 
But you'd only get opinions from girls locally, or is that all you're after (considering thread is about Brixton).

Wouldn't it be better to go somewhere like Oxford Circus to a shop where lots of teenagers from all over London (and outside of London) visit, like Primark/Top Shop etc.

You'd also be able to get the views of foreign teenagers and their experiences where they live.

Obviously no good though if you only want to concentrate on Brixton


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> why it happens to some people and not others...


I think this is a dangerous path to go down. 

It happens to different people in different ways at different times.  There have been extended periods when I haven't been on the receiving end of any abuse of any sort: other times there has been a spate of abuse, sometimes this abuse is mixed in with a period when I also get a lot of sexual attention in non abusive ways too, sometimes I just seem to attract every wanker in London.  Saying it doesn't happen to x sort of girls or y sorts of girls, or it was about what they were wearing or doing is pretty much the definition of victim blaming.  

And means that if your daughter is left alone now and persuades herself that she 'isn't that kind of girl', then when/if something happens she is more likely to blame herself, or something she's done.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Callie said:


> heh sorry youre hooked on this environment and culture thing, im not really thinking about the whys and the wherefores. No adult ever really spoke to me about this casual, mildly (?) sexual interaction with older, strange males and what it means and why it happens. its good that you can/do talk to your girls about it.



Thank you. I am trying to make her aware that there are factors involved that are nothing to do with the actual victim of the harassment. Some have been mentioned... factors like power and fear... some of the others are circumstances, culture and environment.

The reason for doing this is to separate the victims appearance/behaviour from the factors that can cause these incidents.



> what does she mean that it happens to some people not others? boys vs girls??



I don't think she is capable of fully reading the subtle differences between sexuality and power and bullying and prejudice yet... for her its a confusing mess of many issues. She sees it happen to some of her friends and it manifests as many things... violence, teasing, fat comments, sexual comments.

So she means, I think, literally why does it happen more to some people than others. boys or girls.


----------



## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I kept a diary of incidents as part of tje study that I took part in. Maybe you could do something similar for your article?


 

That's a good idea. I'll definitely take a note of incidents from on and work back with ones over the past couple of weeks. 

Now the debate has shifted onto discussing different types of harassment. What is emerging is the question of 'tone'. I would agree with those that say I find it annoying rather than threatening. A friend of mine seems to have similar experiences to me, which is to say the frequency is high but it's not threatening. 

What is the difference between the callous 'gaze' of a (I assume) banker and that of a bored young teenager? A drunk 'lad' in Clapham or a group of men hanging around a bus stop?

What is an acceptable way of dealing with this problem other than reporting it to everyday sexism, where all types of harassment (the horrifically serious to the more low level sit casually side by side)?

For this article, i think we can accept the following things;

- sexual harassment is EVERYWHERE
- sexual harassment varies in tone according to area
- sexual harassment affects all women

As this article is specifically about experience in brixton;

- outlining the more specific tone i.e. catcalling, comments, shouts, mostly annoying-not-threatening
- saying it's not as bad as other areas in London because the tone is less threatening
- frequency - this is the most controversial. I know I, friends and acquaintances who have lived in brixton experience this casual street harassment more than other places they've lived. While we can mostly agree that it falls under category of 'nuisance' instead of 'threat', the frequency seems to put it in 'inevitable' rather than 'occasional' territory. Chance that I, and people with similar stories, are just unluckier than most and that vast majority of women in Brixton don't face this kind of thing.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> You're quite right, my mistake. Perhaps you might replace the word vulnerable with uncomfortable and answer my question?



Anyone can be made to feel uncomfortable. Because of that your question doesn't make any sense.

Of course I'm not going to tell her its her fault. Don't be ridiculous.



> Firstly, I did read your post and this is my interpretation of it. Do not presume that I am incapable of forming my own opinion as I always give a personal response, not tainted by the politics of the board which you seem to feel is conspiring against you.
> Your post, in response to a question about the sexual harassment of women, did suggest that it was the demeanour of women uncomfortable in 'thriving street culture' which somehow marked them as a target. That wasmy interpretation of your comments and though you've had ample time to clarify what you meant but you choose not to, instead being supercilliously dismissve of the people who have responded to you and their 'claptrap'.



People will always read things wrong, some people will check with the writer whether they have read things wrong before jumping to conclusions.

As you have already shown you misread uncomfortable for vulnerable which are very different and as I have pointed out you also assumed this post was only about women... which it wasn't.

That's two misreadings. That I have now clarified.



> Perhaps you have something interesting to say about Brixton, so say it. But this was a thread about sexual harassment of women and, as you freely admit, you've made no positive contribution to the discussion. If you want to discuss the masculinity and the 'thriving street culture' of Brixton then go start a thread about it and stop ruining this one.



No... this was a thread about sexual harassment specifically with regard to brixton... therefore comments about the environment and cultures of brixton are very much on topic.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> In my experience Brixton has a thriving street culture (by English standards) and in common with a lot of other areas with similar street cultures around the world there is an externalisation of behaviours normally hidden.


 
Which places around the world would they be, and do they have the same density of multiculturality as Brixton?



> I think part of the problem, putting aside incidents of genuine nastiness of which there are many, is the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so.
> 
> With the inevitable result of making those uncomfortable people even more uncomfortable.


 
Depends how you define comfort with respect to acceptability.  I'm perfectly comfortable "on the street", but that doesn't mean I think macho sexism and aggression are acceptable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> "externalisation of behaviours normally hidden"
> 
> And what would these behaviours be?
> 
> ...


 
I suspect Kizmet is on about "Caribbean" street behaviour.
Thing is, I don't remember the aggressive stuff being part of what went on here in the '70s and '80s.  There were wolf-whistles, but they were usually accompanied by something like "lookin' beautiful!" rather than "I wanna fuck ya!".


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

trashpony said:


> Is 'the clash between those comfortable on the street and those not so' the clash between men and women?


 
At least partly.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Firstly, I did read your post and this is my interpretation of it. Do not presume that I am incapable of forming my own opinion as I always give a personal response



Really?



> .. and stop ruining this one.





Kizmet said:


> .... if you like I could explain it further but then will be disrupting this thread. Which I'm going to be accused of anyway even though its clear that the disruption is from the same few posters trying to control the discussion.
> 
> Its all very predictable and yes, you're right, sometimes frustrating.



If you want to be treated as an individual then behave like one.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

killer b said:


> kismet's campaign to convince us all he's not some kind of creepy sex case forges ahead, i see.


 
I've "liked" this post purely to fuel Kizmet's belief that he's a wielder of the shiny sword of righteousness against Urban's barbarian hordes (i.e. people who think he's a creep).


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> - frequency - this is the most controversial. I know I, friends and acquaintances who have lived in brixton experience this casual street harassment more than other places they've lived. While we can mostly agree that it falls under category of 'nuisance' instead of 'threat', the frequency seems to put it in 'inevitable' rather than 'occasional' territory. Chance that I, and people with similar stories, are just unluckier than most and that vast majority of women in Brixton don't face this kind of thing.


I've lived abroad a lot so skewed sample, I guess, but different manifestations of sexual harassment seem to happen in different places*.  In parts of the middle east they stare, in parts they grab (in parts they propose marriage a lot but I suspect they meant nikah mut'ah not a long term meeting of minds )...  In Moscow they stare or shout abuse depending on how much they have had to drink, in North Africa they hiss, in East Africa they are more likely to click their tongues, in Northern Europe wolf whistles are more common than they are in Mediterranean Europe, where finger clicks and propositions seem to be the way forward etc etc (*all my own experience and not based on any sort of scientific or cultural survey!)  I've talked to you by PM about the differences I see in different parts of London, so obviously the situation in any other city is more nuanced than I've just laid out, but there seem to be some broad generalisations.  

That also means that what women see and experience as abuse may not be noticed by passersby (e.g. I can can hear a hiss through even the busiest market because I'm atuned to it IYSWIM; my other half still isn't quite sure what I mean by being hissed at- 'like you're on stage and they're booing you?');  this makes it easy for people to dismiss experiences and say women are over sensitive.  And to complicate figuring out frequency even more, you can have loads of things happen that irritate but no more and then one which, for no particular reason or for a particular personal reason that you couldn't explain to a third party, really gets to you, and causes you to change your behaviour, clothes, social plans, whatever.  Which is why I am cautious about your statement on frequency saying you are unluckier than most- maybe you are noticing because what is happening is in a context where its obvious to you, maybe other women aren't noticing particular things because they don't know a hiss or a finger click at them followed by a group of blokes laughing is a comment on their desirability- maybe they are on the phone, maybe they have headphones in, maybe they are distracted, have decided to ignore it....  And a woman who is mostly left alone but has one triggering experience can be more badly damaged than a woman who for whatever reason gets constant bullshit to deal with


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Effrasurfer said:


> Not entirely. I think the level of self-consciousness or vulnerability you are feeling "can be "read" in your clothes, gait and manner" as Trabuquera says. I reckon a man who's looking for entertainment will throw a line out to a woman he thinks he'll get a reaction out of and sadly, some men aggressively pick on a woman who's looking vulnerable. Conversely, I see highly attractive young women walk completely unmolested. Usually if you front it out and project invulnerability and mild boredom with their antics you won't get unduly bothered.


 
In other words, you *will* still get bothered to some degree, whether you're fronting it or not.
And sure, some people do pick up on "tells" that someone is uncomfortable, and feed off of it, unfortunately.   I wouldn't say they're looking for "entertainment", though. I'd say that they're looking for a victim/someone to victimise in order to stave off acknowledging their own inadequacies.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect Kizmet is on about "Caribbean" street behaviour.
> Thing is, I don't remember the aggressive stuff being part of what went on here in the '70s and '80s.  There were wolf-whistles, but they were usually accompanied by something like "lookin' beautiful!" rather than "I wanna fuck ya!".



Not just the Caribbean behaviour but also many others. Its because of the multi culturalism of Brixton that no single culture dominates.

I wonder if that also means that those cultures compete and become more aggressive?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

killer b said:


> nonsense.


 
Makes me wonder where the dividing line between "duly" and "unduly" is.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

This might come out a bit jumbled, but I have to say that the OP worries me a bit as Brixton is very much associated with the Afro-Caribbean community by those living outside who aren't aware of its actual diversity.  Somehow, by isolating Brixton from, say, the rest of the world, you run the risk of sexual harrasment becoming racialised.   I am not suggesting that your agenda is racist, but there are already comments on here referring to sexual harrasment as being cultural, when we know that it transcends all racial, class, cultural, groups.  I agree that it may manifest differently from one place to another, but I think that embarking on post-code analysis of this problem is potentially dangerous.  Its your research and you will do what you see fit, but I would be much more comfortable with something that doesn't negatively highlight one particular area.

I work with young people and am always shocked by the level of attention girls and young women get when on the streets and public transport.  My niece regularly comes up from Cardiff, and has had some scary experiences on the tubes, so much so that she now only uses the buses.  These incidents took place in central London.   She gets a lot of attention in Brixton, but has never, so far, felt threatened by any of it.  Her way of coping is to never make eye contact with guys who are doing this, and pretend she can't hear cos of her headphones.  Its awful that girls and women have to use any strategies to deal with harrassment, but until such time as men are willing to stop oppressing women, its necessary.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> I think this is a dangerous path to go down.
> 
> It happens to different people in different ways at different times.  There have been extended periods when I haven't been on the receiving end of any abuse of any sort: other times there has been a spate of abuse, sometimes this abuse is mixed in with a period when I also get a lot of sexual attention in non abusive ways too, sometimes I just seem to attract every wanker in London.  Saying it doesn't happen to x sort of girls or y sorts of girls, or it was about what they were wearing or doing is pretty much the definition of victim blaming.
> 
> And means that if your daughter is left alone now and persuades herself that she 'isn't that kind of girl', then when/if something happens she is more likely to blame herself, or something she's done.



Agreed. It depends in how you approach it.

By making her understand that there are many factors involved in these incidents and none of them are actually about the victim this way hopefully she cam understand not to blame herself.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> If you want to be treated as an individual then behave like one.


Oh, you are a dickhead. I hadn't realised that until now.


----------



## toggle (Aug 17, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Been out in Brixton a fair bit over the years. Never really had a problem.*shrug*





stuff_it said:


> TBH I use thing like that and builder's wolf whistles to test out new going out clothes.


 
so you get the behavior that a lot of women are defining as problematic and harassment. you just don't see that as a problem?


that's not snarky btw, I get some of the behavior sparkybird talks about at my work. and I respond to it in much the same way she does and that stops it being problematic to me. 

in general:

the issue that remains is that not defining this behavior as problematic does not make it go away and it can assume that anyone who doesn't see this as problematic is normal and anyone who finds it problematic is being oversensitive.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Not just the Caribbean behaviour but also many others. Its because of the multi culturalism of Brixton that no single culture dominates.
> 
> I wonder if that also means that those cultures compete and become more aggressive?


 
It's not the usual outcome (more usually moderate synergy between the acceptable/accessible parts of different cultures, with the more esoteric bits "kept at home"), but then Brixton is, at least in the UK, unique as to its' mix.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> not just on the streets mind. try drinking in one of the brixton pubs in a low cut top on a saturday night.


 
You do look incredibly fetching in a low cut top, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> I am thinking this as I type so it may come out utterly scrambled, so bear with me.... On the power/vulnerability thing, is it about essentially powerless men (because they are inadequate, not sexually desirable generally, do not perceive themselves to be sexually desirable to that woman, because she is very clearly marked as 'belonging' to another man eg pregnant) trying to assert some sort of power and control over women? A kind of dog pissing against a lamppost thing almost. Which may explain the lads in front of friends, picking on women who may not be the 'most attractive' or 'provocatively' dressed- it's not a out a hot girl showing leg, it's about something that is off limits to them and they push back against that powerlessness with crudity and sexual language as it is all they have to assert power? That the 'thing' is a living breathing human female is almost irrelevant (bear with me....) it's almost like keying a car you can't afford.
> 
> Linked to young kids saying stuff, they are aware of their sexuality on some level and their masculinity on some level but know they are essentially sexually powerless/useless/wouldn't know what to do with themselves if sex was offered, but it's them starting to assert themselves in an area where they are essentially inadequate and unsure and the only way they know how to do it is abusively.
> 
> As I said, sort of thinking aloud, and feel free to flame me. A little bit. But please be gentle


 
Let's just say that a lot of psychologists theorise something along the same lines, and that "acting out" can be a big part of asserting power and identity for economically and/or socially marginalised people.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Oh, you are a dickhead. I hadn't realised that until now.



You misread me twice and assumed things I didn't say then when that's pointed out you call me a dickhead?

Classy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Its a bold statement to say one is comfortable on the streets.
> 
> In the old days it would be called streetwise... but nowadays people don't seem to use the term. It comes from spending a long time in that environment. A really long time.
> 
> ...


 
Strange.  "Streetwise" was always a Ronseal word for my generation. It meant you wre wise to the ways of the street. It didn't have anything to do with being "comfortable on the streets".


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've "liked" this post purely to fuel Kizmet's belief that he's a wielder of the shiny sword of righteousness against Urban's barbarian hordes (i.e. people who think he's a creep).



It's my belief and I'm sticking to it. 

And with all the same old names doing the liking and the misreading... well you're giving me all the evidence I need.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not the usual outcome (more usually moderate synergy between the acceptable/accessible parts of different cultures, with the more esoteric bits "kept at home"), but then Brixton is, at least in the UK, unique as to its' mix.



Fairly unique... there are areas in London central that are similar and say Brent or parts of newham.

No two areas are exactly alike... but there is a commonality.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:
			
		

> It's my belief and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> And with all the same old names doing the liking and the misreading... well you're giving me all the evidence I need.



And therein lies the rub.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Strange.  "Streetwise" was always a Ronseal word for my generation. It meant you wre wise to the ways of the street. It didn't have anything to do with being "comfortable on the streets".



I think they are very obviously linked.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I see you are popular.
> 
> I think you miss my point. I was arguing that there is a clash within cultures. Not a clash of cultures. Going down the road of clash of cultures leads to Huntington view.
> 
> ...


 
Also, it's worth adding that attempts to crystalise or codify a culture almost always end in the worst sort of nationalistic bollocks *because* it is the nature of culture to be fluid, to hybridise and evolve according to influences.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Something I have been aware of over the years, is that it is rarely young men (teens - early twenties) that this behaviour comes from. 
It is much more common for it to come from blokes that (at least appear) are in their thirties and forties. 
I'm not sure what point I'm really making here but I guess I find it depressing coming from people one would hope had learned better by now. 
It's not in any way ok from young men but I personally find it easier to shrug off from an eighteen year old than a thirty year old.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I think they are very obviously linked.


 
I think the latter *can* result from the former, but that it's in no way a given.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Something I have been aware of over the years, is that it is rarely young men (teens - early twenties) that this behaviour comes from.
> It is much more common for it to come from blokes that (at least appear) are in their thirties and forties.
> I'm not sure what point I'm really making here but I guess I find it depressing coming from people one would hope had learned better by now.
> It's not in any way ok from young men but I personally find it easier to shrug off from an eighteen year old than a thirty year old.


 
I put some of that down to bravado and showing off to their mates that they've still got it 

They're the same type that are probably telling their mates that they get it every night


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Something I have been aware of over the years, is that it is rarely young men (teens - early twenties) that this behaviour comes from.
> It is much more common for it to come from blokes that (at least appear) are in their thirties and forties.
> I'm not sure what point I'm really making here but I guess I find it depressing coming from people one would hope had learned better by now.
> It's not in any way ok from young men but I personally find it easier to shrug off from an eighteen year old than a thirty year old.


But it seems others eg Ms T gets more from kids/younger men?


----------



## Ms T (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> But it seems others eg Ms T gets more from kids/younger men?


 
The other day I got "appreciative noises" from a bunch of kids, a guy in his twenties, and a man who was probably in his fifties/sixties.  On the same day.  Within two minutes walk of my house.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> There you go again... turning it into "you know my experiences" claptrap.
> 
> I don't have to know your experiences to know when you're talking inconsistent bollocks.
> 
> ...


 
As always for you, it's always the fault of everyone else/a clique of people out to traduce you, never you.


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Ms T said:


> The other day I got "appreciative noises" from a bunch of kids, a guy in his twenties, and a man who was probably in his fifties/sixties.  On the same day.  Within two minutes walk of my house.


Ugh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I don't mind if you think its creepy. You can think anything that you like.
> 
> I only mind when you prevent a discussion from entering difficult subjects just because you get a righteous hard-on everytime I post.


 
I think you'll find tht what he gets is nausea, not a boner.


----------



## Rushy (Aug 17, 2013)

silverfish said:


> derail warning
> 
> 
> I had this recently with a female best friend I've had for 24 years!!! I used to live at her parents when I got kicked out of home at 16/17
> ...


 
I had a friend like that. We travelled together. Got on super well. And then her new boyfriend disapproved and she said she couldn't stay in touch because he got too moody whenever I or any other male friend was mentioned. Why would you stay with someone like that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> - sexual harassment varies in tone according to area


 
I think that's a debatable contention. I'm sure you could say that *overt* sexual harrassment varies in tone according to area, but we can't really make an overall judgement because we don't know what goes on out-of-sight, and any conclusions we draw from overt harrassment are at best provisional.


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think that's a debatable contention. I'm sure you could say that *overt* sexual harrassment varies in tone according to area, but we can't really make an overall judgement because we don't know what goes on out-of-sight, and any conclusions we draw from overt harrassment are at best provisional.


Yeah- but I actually agree with her based on my experience (anecdotal evidence ftw!)- I've experienced alcohol fuelled lunges in Clapham, Islington etc. which have sometimes been quite, er, assertive but are usually easy to get away from: in the City near work it seems to be a combination of alcohol and entitlement and has ranged from serious assault to baying packs of junior brokers who think monogrammed shirts are some sort of badge of desirability- and are quite pissed off if you aren't impressed: Brixton, in my experience, you get more low level and irritating 'compliments' that turn nasty if you ignore them. Or sometimes start out nasty, but it's different, somehow.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 17, 2013)

Rushy said:


> I had a friend like that. We travelled together. Got on super well. And then her new boyfriend disapproved and she said she couldn't stay in touch because he got too moody whenever I or any other male friend was mentioned. Why would you stay with someone like that?


 
Speaking from personal experience, because you think that if you give in on this, he'll calm down (he didn't, instead he became increasingly jealous, quickly reaching an unreasonable degree), because you love him, because you think he loves you, because the sex is amazingly good...


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Speaking from personal experience, because you think that if you give in on this, he'll calm down (he didn't, instead he became increasingly jealous, quickly reaching an unreasonable degree), because you love him, because you think he loves you, because the sex is amazingly good...


And sometimes because you don't have the self esteem/confidence to negotiate the boundaries of your relationships


----------



## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> But it seems others eg Ms T gets more from kids/younger men?


 

Yes. It probably is because I brush it off more easily from younger men.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> Ugh.


 
It was very low-level "hello sexy" type stuff so not particulary annoying.  Funnily enough, the men I was most dreading passing - a group of Scottish football fans dressed in kilts and getting tanked up at 11am in King's Cross - were absolutely fine.


----------



## Winot (Aug 17, 2013)

Mrs Winot moved to Brixton in 1994.  Her experience was that she received a lot of friendly attention from men of Caribbean heritage. Freaked her out a bit at first but most of the time it didn't turn nasty. It has reduced over time; who knows whether that is down to age/having kids/become more used to Brixton.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:


> And sometimes because you don't have the self esteem/confidence to negotiate the boundaries of your relationships


 
Or because you don't have the experience to know that giving in this time will only lead to him demanding more.


----------



## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Or because you don't have the experience to know that giving in this time will only lead to him demanding more.


Yes, that too


----------



## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> This might come out a bit jumbled, but I have to say that the OP worries me a bit as Brixton is very much associated with the Afro-Caribbean community by those living outside who aren't aware of its actual diversity. Somehow, by isolating Brixton from, say, the rest of the world, you run the risk of sexual harrasment becoming racialised. I am not suggesting that your agenda is racist, but there are already comments on here referring to sexual harrasment as being cultural, when we know that it transcends all racial, class, cultural, groups. I agree that it may manifest differently from one place to another, but I think that embarking on post-code analysis of this problem is potentially dangerous. Its your research and you will do what you see fit, but I would be much more comfortable with something that doesn't negatively highlight one particular area.
> 
> I work with young people and am always shocked by the level of attention girls and young women get when on the streets and public transport. My niece regularly comes up from Cardiff, and has had some scary experiences on the tubes, so much so that she now only uses the buses. These incidents took place in central London. She gets a lot of attention in Brixton, but has never, so far, felt threatened by any of it. Her way of coping is to never make eye contact with guys who are doing this, and pretend she can't hear cos of her headphones. Its awful that girls and women have to use any strategies to deal with harrassment, but until such time as men are willing to stop oppressing women, its necessary.


 

You stated that very articulately. I completely understand your worry and it's one my major concerns. In no way do I want to suggest that it's down to a particular 'community' (whatever that means) or class, as this happens across all stratas.

I need to find the right balance between highlighting my specific experience of harassment in Brixton with raising awareness of the problem of harassment as a whole. These shouldn't be contradictory aims.

I don't agree with the view that just because you've not been assaulted in Brixton that frequent street harassment isn't important and that regularly harassed Brixtonites should count themselves lucky. The negative effects of low level, frequent street harassment are accumulative, regardless of whether you feel threatened by it or not. I find that it is this accumulated stress that is different to other places I've lived. No doubt people have the same experience of accumulated stress in other areas of London and the UK too. 

Your niece should be able to use the tube without fear of abuse *and* she should also be able to visit Brixton without being scared of making eye contact. We should stick up for her in both contexts.

Inevitably some people will bring up culture but hopefully they'll be shot down just as they have been in this thread. 

I am very concerned about how to frame the piece. How do you combine the specific trigger of your experience (wanting to state that being ) with the wider context of sexual harassment that affects all classes, races etc?

Completely open to suggestions on how to do that...


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 17, 2013)

I'd just like to poke my head in to say that understanding cultural differences is incredibly important with things like this, but then developing a blind spot to certain behaviours under the apology of cultural difference is something else entirely. There are lots of behaviours and practices around the world that have grown out of the traditions and history of different cultures, and some of them we understand to be 'problematic' regardless.

Perhaps there is a difference between someone saying in a flirty/friendly manner "hey gorgeous" and someone shouting "you need a taste of my dick, bitch" - but it needs to be understood that when women are at the sharp end of all types of this behaviour it's increasingly difficult to be able to divorce all of it from the reality of being objectified and threatened with bodily ownership (and violence), to the point where just mere words are an exercise in someone telling you that you exist for their satisfaction. These are not experiences that occur in a vacuum. Understanding cultural differences is important so that you can get to the root of why certain behaviours happen, but the _effects_ of those behaviours can often be the same regardless, and asking to live in a world where women aren't treated like pieces of meat to be appraised and consumed (in various ways) is a fair thing - yes, regardless of any cultural differences.


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## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

Can I like more than once? I think that's a really important point, sensitively made.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> You stated that very articulately. I completely understand your worry and it's one my major concerns. In no way do I want to suggest that it's down to a particular 'community' (whatever that means) or class, as this happens across all stratas.
> 
> I need to find the right balance between highlighting my specific experience of harassment in Brixton with raising awareness of the problem of harassment as a whole. These shouldn't be contradictory aims.
> 
> ...


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

I just think it is un.... scientific/fair/ethical (?) to research the effects and frequency of this kind of behaviour in Brixton alone, with out doing the same for other areas. 
What will it really tell you if you only look at Brixton? 
I can tell you how many times and to what degree of severity I have experience unwanted comments / advances in Brixton but with out giving you the same information for other places I've lived in, does it really tell you anything about whether Brixton is any worse or better for this stuff?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I just think it is un.... scientific/fair/ethical (?) to research the effects and frequency of this kind of behaviour in Brixton alone, with out doing the same for other areas.
> What will it really tell you if you only look at Brixton?
> I can tell you how many times and to what degree of severity I have experience unwanted comments / advances in Brixton but with out giving you the same information for other places I've lived in, does it really tell you anything about whether Brixton is any worse or better for this stuff?


 
I've told OP of the hassle I used to get living in Earl's Court, but she's not replied


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## Rushy (Aug 17, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Speaking from personal experience, because you think that if you give in on this, he'll calm down (he didn't, instead he became increasingly jealous, quickly reaching an unreasonable degree), because you love him, because you think he loves you, because the sex is amazingly good...


 
She particularly liked his French accent.


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## Thora (Aug 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I just think it is un.... scientific/fair/ethical (?) to research the effects and frequency of this kind of behaviour in Brixton alone, with out doing the same for other areas.
> What will it really tell you if you only look at Brixton?
> I can tell you how many times and to what degree of severity I have experience unwanted comments / advances in Brixton but with out giving you the same information for other places I've lived in, does it really tell you anything about whether Brixton is any worse or better for this stuff?


Doesn't it depend on what you're talking about though?  If you are writing a piece on harassment in Brixton (or London or the UK or Europe) does it matter if it is better or worse somewhere else - it's still significant for the people experiencing it even if you can say "well India is worse".
If the piece is about whether Brixton has a particular or unique problem with harassment then some kind of comparison is obviosuly necessary.


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## Thora (Aug 17, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've told OP of the hassle I used to get living in Earl's Court, but she's not replied


What reply do you want?  The OP hasn't suggested harassment is something that only happens in Brixton has she?


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Thora said:
			
		

> Doesn't it depend on what you're talking about though?  If you are writing a piece on harassment in Brixton (or London or the UK or Europe) does it matter if it is better or worse somewhere else - it's still significant for the people experiencing it even if you can say "well India is worse".
> If the piece is about whether Brixton has a particular or unique problem with harassment then some kind of comparison is obviosuly necessary.



I agree that it is possible to just look at harassment in Brixton but if you want to know if Brixton has a particular or unique problem, surely you need comparison or the conclusion you come to could be incorrect.


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Thora said:
			
		

> What reply do you want?  The OP hasn't suggested harassment is something that only happens in Brixton has she?



I don't think anyone is saying she is.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> You stated that very articulately. I completely understand your worry and it's one my major concerns. In no way do I want to suggest that it's down to a particular 'community' (whatever that means) or class, as this happens across all stratas.
> 
> I need to find the right balance between highlighting my specific experience of harassment in Brixton with raising awareness of the problem of harassment as a whole. These shouldn't be contradictory aims.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, it isn't acceptable that we have to endure this stuff.  Ever.  And a girl/woman should be able to walk alone at night without fear of sexual violence.  We have to continue to challenge sexism and sexual harrassment on all levels.  But, given the state we're in, its works for some to develop ways of dealing with it in order to reduce the stress it causes us.  As a teenager, I would actually vary my journey if it involved passing a building site, mad, I know, but that's how much I hated walking past them. Over the years, I've used a range of strategies to deal with overt sexism/harrassment, including telling them to fuck off, ignoring comments/chat ups, humour, and, like my niece, not making eye contact.

Do you have to confine your research to Brixton in particular?


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## Thora (Aug 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I agree that it is possible to just look at harassment in Brixton but if you want to know if Brixton has a particular or unique problem, surely you need comparison or the conclusion you come to could be incorrect.


I find it strange that the OP talks about the harassment she experiences, where she lives, that she wants to write about for a local blog, and lots of people are so keen to tell her it isn't that bad, it's worse elsewhere, other places have harassment problems too.  What's the problem with writing about a local issue?


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Thora said:
			
		

> I find it strange that the OP talks about the harassment she experiences, where she lives, that she wants to write about for a local blog, and lots of people are so keen to tell her it isn't that bad, it's worse elsewhere, other places have harassment problems too.  What's the problem with writing about a local issue?



Nothing, but articles should be properly researched. 
Other people have said those things because they are their genuine answers I would think. 
Should people limit the information given or not say what they think the issue really is in their point of view?


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm not saying that the article can't be about brixton. 
I'm not saying she should only write an article about sexual harassment over all. 
I'm just saying impo, there needs to be some comparison to tell you whether Brixton had a particular problem. 
At the end of the day the op can write whatever she likes and I genuinely applaud her approaching an article about this subject.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

Thora said:


> I find it strange that the OP talks about the harassment she experiences, where she lives, that she wants to write about for a local blog, and lots of people are so keen to tell her it isn't that bad, it's worse elsewhere, other places have harassment problems too. What's the problem with writing about a local issue?


 
Something I wrote a bit earlier: . .._the OP worries me a bit as Brixton is very much associated with the Afro-Caribbean community by those living outside who aren't aware of its actual diversity. Somehow, by isolating Brixton from, say, the rest of the world, you run the risk of sexual harrasment becoming racialised. I am not suggesting that your agenda is racist, but there are already comments on here referring to sexual harrasment as being cultural, when we know that it transcends all racial, class, cultural, groups. I agree that it may manifest differently from one place to another, but I think that embarking on post-code analysis of this problem is potentially dangerous. Its your research and you will do what you see fit, but I would be much more comfortable with something that doesn't negatively highlight one particular area._

Maybe I'm over-sensitive to criticism about Brixton, that I feel is usually a sub-text for racist sentiment. "ooh, its rough there" (said with a meaningful look), "You're brave living there", and, more lately, "I hear its getting better", meaning, there's more white people moving in. I take your point that S A Villarino should be able to research/write what she chooses, I guess I'm asking her to consider the ramifications of a piece of research about sexual harrassment limited to one specific area, that will potentially be attributed to one community . I say that because already on this thread posters have referred specifically to Afro-Caribbean men.


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## Manter (Aug 17, 2013)

I think she is taking on board a lot of what we are saying, asking questions, soliciting input etc. whatever she writes will be an opinion piece, so by definition subjective and some people are not going to be happy, but she doesn't strike me as someone looking for anecdotes to back up an existing agenda. She's asking, exploring and sharing her thinking.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

I also think there's something about social cohesion here.  It would be easy for any one of us to identify particular faults or cultural behaviours in every community, but I believe we have to look at our reason for doing so.  Some issues, such as female genital mutilation, forced marriages, abuse of children, absolutely have to be vigorously challenged (I include the abuse of children here as some people try to argue its a cultural thing).  But in this instance, I'm not sure its helpful to do so.


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## kittyP (Aug 17, 2013)

Manter said:
			
		

> I think she is taking on board a lot of what we are saying, asking questions, soliciting input etc. whatever she writes will be an opinion piece, so by definition subjective and some people are not going to be happy, but she doesn't strike me as someone looking for anecdotes to back up an existing agenda. She's asking, exploring and sharing her thinking.



I agree. 
I also agree that it's right for people to raise any concerns and thoughts they have so she has a balanced amount if information for her article.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

I think there's been some kind of misunderstanding. I am going to reference other people's experience outside Brixton and within it. In fact, I've asked people to share their experiences outside of Brixton too with every intention of saying it's bad there too and many women think Brixton is better than many other places. This thread is to collect experiences and thoughts of sexual harassment. As Thora said, this is for a local blog and so I will be talking about my and other people's experiences in Brixton. This is a pretty long thread so completely understand if people haven't read all my posts where I say this is a problem for everyone and everywhere - not just brixton.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

My last post reads as if I'm accusing SAV of looking at one community.  She isn't, and I agree with Manter, she seems to be genuine in what she writes.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I agree.
> I also agree that it's right for people to raise any concerns and thoughts they have so she has a balanced amount if information for her article.


 

I am taking these on board and have every intention of saying 





Manter said:


> I think she is taking on board a lot of what we are saying, asking questions, soliciting input etc. whatever she writes will be an opinion piece, so by definition subjective and some people are not going to be happy, but she doesn't strike me as someone looking for anecdotes to back up an existing agenda. She's asking, exploring and sharing her thinking.


 
Yes, this is precisely my approach. Not trying to shit stir, just trying to highlight and explore this important and complicated issue.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> My last post reads as if I'm accusing SAV of looking at one community. She isn't, and I agree with Manter, she seems to be genuine in what she writes.


 
Well, I won't be happy with singling out Brixton.  But it feels like you will go ahead with it anyway.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> I think there's been some kind of misunderstanding. I am going to reference other people's experience outside Brixton and within it. In fact, I've asked people to share their experiences outside of Brixton too with every intention of saying it's bad there too and many women think Brixton is better than many other places. This thread is to collect experiences and thoughts of sexual harassment. *As Thora said, this is for a local blog and so I will be talking about my and other people's experiences in Brixton.* This is a pretty long thread so completely understand if people haven't read all my posts where I say this is a problem for everyone and everywhere - not just brixton.


 
Meant to quote this one.  So, none of our views have convinced you to widen the geographical area of your study?


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Meant to quote this one. So, none of our views have convinced you to widen the geographical area of your study?


 

What would be your ideal way of me writing about this issue for a local blog?


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## Thora (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Well, I won't be happy with singling out Brixton. But it feels like you will go ahead with it anyway.


Do you feel it isn't appropriate to discuss any issues specifically in reference to Brixton, or is it just sexual harassment?


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

Sorry, but it feels like middle-class, entitled-type behaviour, riding rough-shod over local people's feelings.  There are times when is a brave thing to do, but in this instance, it feels like something that is divisive and unhelpful.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> What would be your ideal way of me writing about this issue for a local blog?


 
I'm just curious.  Who is the blog aimed at?  What part of Brixton's male population will actually read it and realise their behaviour upsets women?  Is it only to be published online?


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> What would be your ideal way of me writing about this issue for a local blog?


 
Not sure, would need to give it more thought.


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## Thora (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Sorry, but it feels like middle-class, entitled-type behaviour, riding rough-shod over local people's feelings. There are times when is a brave thing to do, but in this instance, it feels like something that is divisive and unhelpful.


That's ridiculous.  She wants to write about her experiences of being sexually harassed where she lives and that is somehow entitled and riding rough-shod over local people?


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

Thora said:


> Do you feel it isn't appropriate to discuss any issues specifically in reference to Brixton, or is it just sexual harassment?


 
Tensions between different communities, for example.  We might know about things on the ground, but we have to be very responsible in how they are raised and in what forum.  Its not about censoring the discussion about sexual harrassment, but why would anyone wish to focus on any one area.  Live magazine, which is produced in Brixton by and for young people, regularly carries stuff on sexual harrassment, exploitation, etc, but I've never once read anything that alludes to any one community or geographical area.


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## Thora (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Tensions between different communities, for example. We might know about things on the ground, but we have to be very responsible in how they are raised and in what forum. Its not about censoring the discussion about sexual harrassment, but why would anyone wish to focus on any one area. Live magazine, which is produced in Brixton by and for young people, regularly carries stuff on sexual harrassment, exploitation, etc, but I've never once read anything that alludes to any one community or geographical area.


Why would someone want to write about an issue that affects them and their local community?  Gosh, no idea!  Maybe because solutions are often local and community based as well?


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

No need for sarcasm, Thora.  I agree that solutions are often local and community based, but very often the work is done behind the scenes.  As a community activist, I have learnt that it doesn't always help to discuss these things on a very open and widely read forum.  That is because it can lead to a hyping up of the problem, misunderstanding and increased tensions.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Thora said:


> I find it strange that the OP talks about the harassment she experiences, where she lives, that she wants to write about for a local blog, and lots of people are so keen to tell her it isn't that bad, it's worse elsewhere, other places have harassment problems too. What's the problem with writing about a local issue?


 
There is no problem, as long as the issue is represented as "Brixton, like other places, has a problem with...." rather than otherwise.  let's just say that in terms of press, Brixton has had more than its' share of poorly informed and entirely uninformed bad press over the last half century, so people are (rightly or wrongly) often a little anxious to emphasise that there are few problems *unique* to Brixton.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Thora said:


> That's ridiculous. She wants to write about her experiences of being sexually harassed where she lives and that is somehow entitled and riding rough-shod over local people?


 
That'll depend on how the article projects the issue, surely? It's entirely possible to do both (although I very much doubt that's the OP's intention).


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## S A Villarino (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> There is no problem, as long as the issue is represented as "Brixton, like other places, has a problem with...." rather than otherwise. let's just say that in terms of press, Brixton has had more than its' share of poorly informed and entirely uninformed bad press over the last half century, so people are (rightly or wrongly) often a little anxious to emphasise that there are few problems *unique* to Brixton.


 

I think that's a good way of framing it. As it's for a local blog, it needs a local slant but it'll definitely be in context of harassment in wider context.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Tensions between different communities, for example. We might know about things on the ground, but we have to be very responsible in how they are raised and in what forum. Its not about censoring the discussion about sexual harrassment, but why would anyone wish to focus on any one area.


 
There's always, but *always* a tension between bringing issues to light and the possibility that by doing so, the issue is exacerbated.  Unfortunately, sometimes it's impossible to predict whether the former will cause the latter, and it's also nigh-on-impossible to predict whether "censoring" an issue to any extent will have any effect (good or bad).



> Live magazine, which is produced in Brixton by and for young people, regularly carries stuff on sexual harrassment, exploitation, etc, but I've never once read anything that alludes to any one community or geographical area.


 
TBF, a lot of sociological research uses geographical locales with "rich" (meaning diverse) demographics as the basis for research, so I can see why a journo might take the same route.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> No need for sarcasm, Thora. I agree that solutions are often local and community based, but very often the work is done behind the scenes. As a community activist, I have learnt that it doesn't always help to discuss these things on a very open and widely read forum. That is because it can lead to a* hyping up of the problem, misunderstanding and increased tensions.*


Although, to be scrupulously fair, this happens often enough out in the "real world" community too.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's always, but *always* a tension between bringing issues to light and the possibility that by doing so, the issue is exacerbated. Unfortunately, sometimes it's impossible to predict whether the former will cause the latter, and it's also nigh-on-impossible to predict whether "censoring" an issue to any extent will have any effect (good or bad).
> 
> 
> 
> TBF, a lot of sociological research uses geographical locales with "rich" (meaning diverse) demographics as the basis for research, so I can see why a journo might take the same route.


 
Really good points.  I've just said to SAV in a pm that I am uncomfortable with my own stance on this, as it does smack of censorship.  Struggling with it a little, but still have that gut feeling about singling out one area.  I'm glad that SAV has said she will put it in context of sexual harrasment being a problem everywhere.


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## shygirl (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Although, to be scrupulously fair, this happens often enough out in the "real world" community too.


 
True enough.


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## geminisnake (Aug 17, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Funnily enough, the men I was most dreading passing - a group of Scottish football fans dressed in kilts and getting tanked up at 11am in King's Cross - were absolutely fine.


 
Stop believing the stereotyping    I don't think I've ever noticed any harassing while in Brixton. Maybe I just don't notice it


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 17, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Really good points. I've just said to SAV in a pm that I am uncomfortable with my own stance on this, as it does smack of censorship. Struggling with it a little, but still have that gut feeling about singling out one area. I'm glad that SAV has said she will put it in context of sexual harrasment being a problem everywhere.


 
And to be fair, she said she was going to do that all along.


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> As always for you, it's always the fault of everyone else/a clique of people out to traduce you, never you.



Prove different. It should be easy if you are to be believed.

Fact is its protectionist "you're not one of us' bullshit. Anyone outspoken against the herd gets ostracised. Simple really.

However on urban thankfully there are still a fair few people who don't wish to be part of the herd. Lets all assume for the sake of convenience its only these people I am really interested in having discussions with.

Perhaps one of the clique could start up another private conversation thread about it...


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 17, 2013)




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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

How to win friends and influence people... Kizmet Style.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 17, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Perhaps one of the clique could start up another private conversation thread about it...


 
snide cunt


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## Gromit (Aug 17, 2013)

1. Please read the boards for a while before posting. Use the search function to see if your topic has already been discussed to save repeating questions/threads that already exist. Please note that these are discussion boards and not a free resource for journalists/students/market researchers.

The topic is worthy but worthy or not when did we start ignoring Board rule 1?


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## Kizmet (Aug 17, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> snide cunt



Add that to the creepy, racist, sexist weirdo shit that I've already been called on this thread and stick it up your bum.


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## RubyToogood (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Perhaps there is a difference between someone saying in a flirty/friendly manner "hey gorgeous" and someone shouting "you need a taste of my dick, bitch" - but it needs to be understood that when women are at the sharp end of all types of this behaviour it's increasingly difficult to be able to divorce all of it from the reality of being objectified and threatened with bodily ownership (and violence), to the point where just mere words are an exercise in someone telling you that you exist for their satisfaction.


 
I never saw much difference between the apparent come-ons and simple abuse. I could get "hey sexy" and "fat bitch" in the same day, and it felt much the same.


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## chavezcat (Aug 18, 2013)

Hmm I think it is a pretty universal thing to happen to women and not Brixton specific, although I take the point it is for a local blog. If it is a nasty bit of abuse, I just wish randoms would get involved and say 'oi pack it in'. I have noticed through the years quite a few of the matriarchs in Brixton telling men off for being shits. Personally, I'll never forget - even though I didn't know them- a dude telling off some entitled shit who was verbally and physically harassing me ( not in Brixton) to cut it out or he'd personally cut his dick off.


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## newbie (Aug 18, 2013)

toggle said:


> > stuff_it said: ↑
> > Been out in Brixton a fair bit over the years. Never really had a problem.*shrug*​
> 
> 
> ...


just the opposite I'd have thought. Anyone who doesn't view this behaviour as problematic is justifying oppressive and sexist projection of power. That, at least, is the tone of almost every post in this thread, and in every other thread, conversation, article. Almost, not quite, as your post and those you cite demonstrates.

Yet from observation that is not universal. Plenty, ime the clear majority, of such interactions lead to the woman looking uncomfortable and obviously getting away as quickly as possible, and the bloke looking crestfallen. Some don't though, sometime the woman being called out to responds in kind and appears to positively enjoy the experience. I don't know if she really does, or if she's acting or if it's simply a defence mechanism.

I observed an incident the other week, where a bloke called out to a woman as they went up parallel escalators at the tube. After a brief exchange of loud, sexualised banter at the top they both laughed and went on their separate ways. It appeared they both enjoyed themselves, as did some but not all of those who overheard it. Only a few seconds of banter, there's no great conclusions to be drawn from it, but it struck me as a ritualised acknowledgment which made both of them glow slightly.

Yesterday, on the tube, a bloke leaned over and asked the gooner the score. When told Arsenal lost 4-1, and the ref was the 12th man, he said "you'll get no sympathy from me, I'm spurs, you deserve everything you get". A little bit of back and forth, with giggles. It brightened the day. Again ritualised, and again not quite an obvious analysis about the power relationship involved.

Either of those interactions could have turned very wrong very quickly. In either case the 'target' of the remarks might have taken offence, might have argued, insulted, got angry, or might have shrunk away in uncomfortable embarrassment. In each of those anecdotes the initiator of the exchange chose someone who appreciated the banter (or at least, so it appeared). Many of the anecdotes on this thread are from women who did not appreciate being chosen (or picked on) for banter. There is, in my view, no reason why they should.

I wouldn't for a moment seek to justify oppressive and sexist projection of power. Nor would I want someone to start bantering at me about football when I'm sitting on the tube (whether having just been thrashed at home or not). Yet in both my anecdotes the recipient appeared happy with the interaction.

I can't help wonder how the would be initiator of banter is supposed to know who will react well and positively and who will take umbrage.


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## Geri (Aug 18, 2013)

newbie said:


> I can't help wonder how the would be initiator of banter is supposed to know who will react well and positively and who will take umbrage.


 
I found the whole of your post interesting, and it made me think. The initiator cannot know how his (or in some cases possibly her) recipient will take their remarks, and I think the question of whether to make them or not comes down to self confidence. There are occasions when I would like to say something to someone, for example, I might admire something they are wearing and want to ask where it's from, but I very rarely do for worry about the person's reaction.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 18, 2013)

newbie said:


> I can't help wonder how the would be initiator of banter is supposed to know who will react well and positively and who will take umbrage.


Well, tbh I would say that if you're in doubt, don't do it. Tbh there's times when I'm in interactions with people where I think I could say something a bit teasing or darkly wrong, but unless I'm quite confident of the manner it will be taken in, I think it's better not to risk it.

Also it's worth saying that I've had banterish interactions with strangers on the street, probably mostly with men actually, which have been fun and completely non problematic. That's unlikely to happen if the conversation starter is overtly sexual or along the lines of "cheer up love, it might never happen". People's millage obviously varies, but I don't know any woman who doesn't find the "cheer up love" retort to not be annoying. The milder sexual stuff is perhaps a bit more subjective (though IME it remains a majority of women who don't like it), but at the end of the day I'd think who is more likely to have the worst experience - someone not getting a random compliment from a stranger, or someone feeling harassed by a stranger? Again like in the paragraph above, best not to risk it.

Perhaps as an aside, but like with sick jokes and "wrong" humour, I think originality and actual humour plays a large part. Sometimes even if it remains unwanted, the originality and bizarreness of a stranger's come on (of course combined with other non verbals that make it less threatening) can make the interaction so ridiculous it's not threatening or tiresome, and more credulously amusing. And on other times, genuinely original and witty flirty comments or actions have made me openly smile. IME though, those comments have also tended to be more respectful than "show us yer tits".


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## newbie (Aug 18, 2013)

Geri is it your own selfconfidence or the way the person projects themselves?

My fil would include anyone within earshot in any conversation, engage with anybody any time (not that I ever heard him say anything remotely sexual, just anodyne chatter). Some people are like that, with, shall we say, a very different appreciation of boundaries to my own.


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## Geri (Aug 18, 2013)

newbie said:


> Geri is it your own selfconfidence or the way the person projects themselves?
> 
> My fil would include anyone within earshot in any conversation, engage with anybody any time (not that I ever heard him say anything remotely sexual, just anodyne chatter). Some people are like that, with, shall we say, a very different appreciation of boundaries to my own.


 
It's probably a mixture of both. I do engage in conversations with people in shops and waiting at the bus stop sometimes, I think it depends a) on my mood at the time and b) how likely they look to respond. It is very rare though that I will comment on something about they way they look.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Prove different. It should be easy if you are to be believed.
> 
> Fact is its protectionist "you're not one of us' bullshit. Anyone outspoken against the herd gets ostracised. Simple really.
> 
> ...


 
Blah blah fucking blah.

Always the same anile chant, with you placed as some kind of resistor of oppression.

Pathological.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Gromit said:


> 1. Please read the boards for a while before posting. Use the search function to see if your topic has already been discussed to save repeating questions/threads that already exist. Please note that these are discussion boards and not a free resource for journalists/students/market researchers.
> 
> The topic is worthy but worthy or not when did we start ignoring Board rule 1?


 
Possibly when the OP checked out with the ed that it was okay to post the thread?
He does permit them if they have the courtesy to do that, you know.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 18, 2013)

If we all put him on ignore eventually he'll get bored and crawl back under his rock


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 18, 2013)

Tbh, it's probably quite nice to be so convinced in your own righteousness and everyone else's wrongness that you never get a moment of self doubt or questioning...


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## newbie (Aug 18, 2013)

.


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## newbie (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> at the end of the day I'd think who is more likely to have the worst experience - someone not getting a random compliment from a stranger, or someone feeling harassed by a stranger? Again like in the paragraph above, best not to risk it.


 
personally I agree, the risk of my own embarrassment and the other persons discomfort is greater than any possible benefit. So I'm very, very unlikely to initiate any sort of conversation, and have never given a stranger a _compliment_ in my life. Far too intrusive, far too risky.

I'm well aware I conform to the standard London reputation, held by those from the provinces or abroad, as standoffish and unfriendly. Isn't the open approachability of my fil a better model, where chatter and banter are commonplace? Is it really always best to keep clammed up?

If it isn't, where are the boundaries? Clearly _ "show us yer tits"_ crosses almost all known boundaries, and I fully accept your point that _"cheer up love, it might never happen"_ is so hackneyed it's no longer amusing, if it ever was. The weather, otoh, is too pointless and vacuous: for random banter to work some spark is needed, which implies an element of risk.

I don't know the answer to any of this. I don't personally like sexualised banter because it makes me, always an observer never a participant, feel uncomfortable. Except when apparently willing participants engage in having fun, like the pair on the escalator.


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## Pat24 (Aug 18, 2013)

I remember being invited by some guy standing outside his front door to "come in for a good time" - I must have been about 19-20 y.o (this was just round the corner from my house). Also a guy stood on my path whilst I was cycling to ask me out - wtf?
Fortunately I don't get these sort of stuff anymore, which is good, the odd wolfwhilstle or whatever.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> I never saw much difference between the apparent come-ons and simple abuse. I could get "hey sexy" and "fat bitch" in the same day, and it felt much the same.


 
Well that's my point - the effects can be the same to the person on the receiving end, but that doesn't mean there isn't a difference in intent. It's important to understand both of those things, _why_ it happens in certain ways, and the _effects_ all types of behaviour have. You can't have a one-sided conversation about this, because it will always lead nowhere.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> If we all put him on ignore eventually he'll get bored and crawl back under his rock



Don't you get it? Are you really that blind? If you, the control freaks, the arseholes and the suck-ups like you put me on ignore it would make urban *less* boring for me because I wouldn't have to deal with your inane self-obsessed social-media popularity contest bullshit anymore.

I come here to get away from that shit. And people like you bringing it here and making discussions about who likes who instead of what is actually said.. is like a rancid stench to me.


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## weepiper (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Don't you get it? Are you really that blind? If you, the control freaks, the arseholes and the suck-ups like you put me on ignore it would make urban *less* boring for me because I wouldn't have to deal with your inane self-obsessed social-media popularity contest bullshit anymore.
> 
> I come here to get away from that shit. And people like you bringing it here and making discussions about who likes who instead of what is actually said.. is like a rancid stench to me.


 

Enjoy talking to yourself then.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

I don't know who you are, Kizmet, I don't know about any history you and others here might have, and I don't consider myself to be a part of any of these little so-called cliques you appear to be obsessed with, but reading through this thread gives me one impression that is very, very clear: you're doing everything in your power to be a shit-stirrer, to get people's ire up, and you come across as a complete and utter sad twat. While you said one thing early on that could have been the starting point for interesting discussions, when anyone said anything at all that could be considered a dissenting opinion to what you wrote you went off at the deep end and started throwing around half-thought-out and frankly incomprehensible bullshit and have barely said anything of any real consequence wrt this subject since. You appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder, that has clearly affected your ability to string together thoughtful posts on this subject, as your only line of defence (apart from pathetically slagging others off all the time) seems to be to reiterate the things you said earlier in more and more convoluted ways without adding anything to it but while thinking that you're elaborating. You're not.

I'm sure you could have added an interesting strand of debate to this issue had you not got so fucking caught up in personal politics and patheticness along the way.

What are you achieving by continuing? A sense of power at being able to upset people? Rather apt, I guess.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Tbh, it's probably quite nice to be so convinced in your own righteousness and everyone else's wrongness that you never get a moment of self doubt or questioning...



Its not about everyone else's wrongness... this is not kizmet vs everyone.

this is about a fairly small group of long term posters and a few more recent hangers on. Posters who demand a certain level of respect without doing the necessary work to deserve it but just because they have online friends or long posting histories. I hate that shit. It brings out the worst in people.

As far as I am concerned this is kizmet vs the con4trol freaks.

And yes. It is very empowering.

My dear old dead mum used to say... if the aresholes* hate you then you must be doing something right.

*she didn't say arseholes... that's my translation.


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## JimW (Aug 18, 2013)

It's a narrow clique consisting of everyone you've ever interacted with on here, it seems.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't know who you are, Kizmet, I don't know about any history you and others here might have, and I don't consider myself to be a part of any of these little so-called cliques you appear to be obsessed with, but reading through this thread gives me one impression that is very, very clear: you're doing everything in your power to be a shit-stirrer, to get people's ire up, and you come across as a complete and utter sad twat. While you said one thing early on that could have been the starting point for interesting discussions, when anyone said anything at all that could be considered a dissenting opinion to what you wrote you went off at the deep end and started throwing around half-thought-out and frankly incomprehensible bullshit and have barely said anything of any real consequence wrt this subject since. You appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder, that has clearly affected your ability to string together thoughtful posts on this subject, as your only line of defence (apart from pathetically slagging others off all the time) seems to be to reiterate the things you said earlier in more and more convoluted ways without adding anything to it but while thinking that you're elaborating. You're not.
> 
> I'm sure you could have added an interesting strand of debate to this issue had you not got so fucking caught up in personal politics and patheticness along the way.
> 
> What are you achieving by continuing? A sense of power at being able to upset people? Rather apt, I guess.



This kind of thing does give a person cause for self doubt.

To further give me cause for self doubt prove your apparent impartiality by pointing out that it cannot possibly be only one person having such an argument and please write something similar about pathetic personal politics to the posters who have ignored "interesting" point I made and accused me of being a racist, sexist, creepy case.

Do that and I will have a real reason to believe you.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2013)

> I don't know who you are, Kizmet, I don't know about any history you and others here might have, and I don't consider myself to be a part of any of these little so-called cliques you appear to be obsessed with


 
'If its money you want I have none. But what I do have is a particular set of skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. Stop posting now and you have my word you'll come to no harm. I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you. I will find you. _And I will kill you_'


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> This kind of thing does give a person cause for self doubt.
> 
> To further give me cause for self doubt prove your apparent impartiality by pointing out that it cannot possibly be only one person having such an argument and please write something similar about pathetic personal politics to the posters who have ignored "interesting" point I made and accused me of being a racist, sexist, creepy case.
> 
> Do that and I will have a real reason to believe you.


 
How does someone 'prove' impartiality? For all you know I might be the silent leader of a shadowy cabal on here and everyone is secretly in my thrall via PM, following my every move. I get the feeling that anything I say and do will always leave you room to doubt my motivations and beliefs. And that is fair enough - there aren't many people I trust 100% either.

After what I wrote, though, why would you think I would then go and write diatribes against others when I made it clear that I saw your behaviour as the catalyst for all of this? I'm not a fan of confrontation, and the reason I barely post here anymore is because some of the schoolyard shit and nastiness annoys, frustrates, and unnerves me. All of the back-and-forths relating to you on this thread haven't made pleasant reading, regardless of who they have come from, simply because it's pointless distraction from what could have been a really interesting thread on a very pertinent subject. I wish some others hadn't risen to your bait (as I have done as well now, oh well) because it just adds to the problem. But make no mistake, my belief is that you were the catalyst. I can't give any deeper an assessment of the whole situation than what I see here, since, as I said earlier, I am not privy to what you and/or others may have done before, what history you all have... I'm commenting purely on what I've seen in this thread.

And I really wish it would all just stop. But that, of course, is not for me to decide.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

JimW said:


> It's a narrow clique consisting of everyone you've ever interacted with on here, it seems.



Its a losing battle. The more of these arguments that occur the more people will get drawn into them. And its always easier to join the larger side.

But the alternative is to allow them to win and make the boards a sterile, closed version of Facebook where new or different opinions and styles are unwelcome.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Its a losing battle. The more of these arguments that occur the more people will get drawn into them. *And its always easier to join the larger side.*
> 
> But the alternative is to allow them to win and make the boards a sterile, closed version of Facebook where new or different opinions and styles are unwelcome.


 
That's why you'd never take an argument such as mine on face value. Because you seem to be convinced that anyone who disagrees with you must be being swayed by others, and not acting from their own beliefs or observations. You believe that you can only ascertain the veracity of any argument against you if it is accompanied by an equal or greater argument against the people you are disagreeing with. You'll accept an argument against you only if it actually agrees with you.

Do you understand how silly that sounds?


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> I made it clear that I saw your behaviour as the catalyst for all of this? I'm not a fan of confrontation, and the reason I barely post here anymore is because some of the schoolyard shit and nastiness annoys, frustrates, and unnerves me. All of the back-and-forths relating to you on this thread haven't made pleasant reading, regardless of who they have come from, simply because it's pointless distraction from what could have been a really interesting thread on a very pertinent subject.



The schoolyard shit and the nastiness is the reason I am the catalyst.

As you said yourself I tried to make an interesting point with regard to this subject. I didn't attack anyone or bring any personal politics into it. Straight after that the same few posters were in bringing insults and misleading comments.

Show me different. Show me where I said something that was a catalyst? You can't.

So what are you now saying? That just by posting I am a catalyst and thus shouldn't post or only post in agreement? That's all about control who gets to say what, no?

That's exactly the kind of stuff that you say makes you post less than you used to. So here I am trying to stand ground for peoples right to have different opinions, not have to be scared or apologetic and not be part of some popularity contest... and taking a lot of shit for it.

Its ugly and I don't blame you for being tired of it... I wish it wasn't like that too.

While there are good sides to a community there are also downsides... and people have to fight against those too. An easy life is tempting but you'll end up with a board with fewer and fewer new people on it.

If you truly do want to see a more progressive and open boards with more honest discussion then I think you should be on my side.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2013)

oh fuck me


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 18, 2013)

Fwiw I've _tried_ to engage with your arguments previously Kizmet, and I've also ignored you/chosen not to respond on other multiple occasions. I think this is the first time I've actually argued against you in a less patient and more personally attacking style, because frankly it got to the point of being exasperated with some of the utter shit you come out with. And generally I'm really not a poster who goes in for that sort of thing because I've always held it's important to argue the points, not the poster, even if tensions start rising. I'm not some bitchy member of a clique, I hardly post on here anymore. Yesterday was just the point I finally snapped against you continually dismissing the experience of women, coming across as (as I said previously) apologist and a bit creepy on top.

And in complete honesty, if I was getting this reaction from so many people, particularly including from members of a particular group (which I am not a part of) who have traditionally and continue to experience oppression, regarding arguments I was making relating to said oppression, I would be having a period of reflection on _why that might be_ rather than accusing everyone of being part of a monothought clique.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> That's why you'd never take an argument such as mine on face value. Because you seem to be convinced that anyone who disagrees with you must be being swayed by others, and not acting from their own beliefs or observations. You believe that you can only ascertain the veracity of any argument against you if it is accompanied by an equal or greater argument against the people you are disagreeing with. You'll accept an argument against you only if it actually agrees with you.
> 
> Do you understand how silly that sounds?



Or just a simple cut and paste of something I said that was racist or sexist or any other catalyst.

Don't you see? In the absence of proof I am still willing to listen as long as you can show that you are fair.

That's not silly at all. That's actually very fair.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Yesterday was just the point I finally snapped against you continually dismissing the experience of women, coming across as (as I said previously) apologist and a bit creepy on top



And I remember asking you to simply show me what I said that was apologist.

I mean its that easy.

The problem here is that a lot of people like to spread rumours but no one seems to have any evidence. The likes of shiftybaglady can admit to misreading me twice but instead of apologizing or reassessing just goes on to be insulting. Its a bit sad, really.

Its interesting how both you and vintage paw say you post less because of this kind of personal shit nowadays and I've only been back a few months after a couple of years off. So it can't be because of me you hardly post anymore.

I see myself fighting against the influences that caused you to leave but unless you can understand why I guess to you it just looks like more fighting.

As I said its a losing battle... but doesn't mean its not worth fighting.

Lets remember one important fact... just because someone is popular it does not mean that they are a good person. Nor does being unpopular mean that you are a bad one.

This fact is slowly being lost on urban.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Fwiw I've _tried_ to engage with your arguments previously Kizmet, and I've also ignored you/chosen not to respond on other multiple occasions. I think this is the first time I've actually argued against you in a less patient and more personally attacking style, because frankly it got to the point of being exasperated with some of the utter shit you come out with. And generally I'm really not a poster who goes in for that sort of thing because I've always held it's important to argue the points, not the poster, even if tensions start rising. I'm not some bitchy member of a clique, I hardly post on here anymore. Yesterday was just the point I finally snapped against you continually dismissing the experience of women, coming across as (as I said previously) apologist and a bit creepy on top.
> 
> And in complete honesty, if I was getting this reaction from so many people, particularly including from members of a particular group (which I am not a part of) who have traditionally and continue to experience oppression, regarding arguments I was making relating to said oppression, I would be having a period of reflection on _why that might be_ rather than accusing everyone of being part of a monothought clique.


 
I was going to respond to this argument earlier in the thread, but decided not to. The exact phrase I was going to use was that I thought Kizmet sounded like an apologist for certain behaviours, and that was what I found problematic with his argument. But I decided not to because I didn't want to get drawn in. Just a few posts later I saw you mention the apologist thing, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it that way. Thank you for saying it.

Kizmet - take a look at the first post I made in this thread. I talked about understanding differences in culture as being important to this debate. To some extent, that's similar to what you first started arguing. However, I believe I made a more thoughtful and balanced argument, in that I positioned it in the context of also understanding the importance of the effects behaviours and practices have on people regardless of cultural differences and possible intent. It was that aspect of the subject that you time and time again seemed to be willfully ignoring and were not prepared to entertain. That is why your initial posts on this subject came across as being apologetic for those behaviours, particularly when you were challenged on the subject and refused to do anything other than dig your heels in. It didn't seem that you wanted to engage in a real debate about this. Your manner is important here as well, not just the words you say. It's possible to have a discussion about cultural differences, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse for behaviour, and sadly that's what your argument came across as being.

If you don't accept that criticism, there is little I can do about that. All I say is what I perceived from reading this thread. I do not care about any beef you and others may or may not have with each other that might be spilling over here. I'm more interested in debating the issues around the subject of street harassment than I am whether people are pissed off with others on a message board. You have the power right now to turn this around. You have the power to go back to your original arguments, to think about the problems some people had with them, examine why they might have those problems, and move forward with some interesting and intelligent discussion. If you do that and others attack you on other unrelated grounds, well we can all read into that what we need to, can't we? If you are truly concerned with the quality of discussion that happens on urban, lead from the front, be the bigger person, and see if you really can divorce these board politics from a serious discussion on a serious problem.

As it stands, you sound like you are trying to position yourself as a crusader for all that is right and good, but coming off as someone with a massive chip on their shoulder who isn't prepared to ever entertain that any argument they make might be flawed in some way. Why don't you prove otherwise?


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw Thank you for your advice.

I did notice that you made a very similar point to mine... but what you  see as "positioning it in a context'" I see as apologizing and being nervous to just come out and say it straight and simply.

I felt your post was overlong to make a simple point... that's not a criticism of you... but of a board environment where everyone feels like they have to preface everything they say with apologies incase they offend one of the regulars.

Or get flamed... this thread is littered with examples of people being nervous to make their points. And that's not because of me.

Imagine what would have happened had a few it these flamers/regular posters not immediately jumped down my throat as soon as I posted? Perhaps you would have had time to see the conversation develop and understand from where my point came.

That's how it should work, in my opinion.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

To be more precise, your argument on culture went as far as to say that there are different cultures who have different traditions wrt street culture, and we should realise that because it would make things easier to deal with - the implication being that we should recognise it's just a part of someone's culture and if we did so we wouldn't feel victimised by being cat-called anymore. You placed the root of the problem at the feet of those who suffer street harassment, by suggesting they should just understand it's a part of someone's culture. You went no further. That's why it sounds like it's apologist. "They can't help it, that's just the way they were brought up. Give them a break. You need to learn to let it wash over you." When challenged about that position you got defensive, simply kept reiterating it over and over without any kind of further investigation. As my post on the same matter showed (I hope), while understanding cultural differences can be one starting point, it needs to move beyond that to understand the effects it has on people regardless of that, because of the context of real gender bias and sexism within society, the threats that women face daily, and the institutional oppression and objectification women face. Your argument ignored that context, and you seemed to consistently ignore any reasons for criticism by simply restating your point and digging your heels in. The rights and wrongs of the way you and others have been acting towards each other wrt any historical problems you have with each other don't interest me. What I care about is why you weren't prepared to take on board any criticism of your original post and dug your heels in in quite the way you did. It's that behaviour that explains why I believe you were the catalyst here, regardless of whether others unnecessarily continued and exacerbated the problem.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Vintage Paw Thank you for your advice.
> 
> I did notice that you made a very similar point to mine... but what you see as "positioning it in a context'" I see as apologizing and being nervous to just come out and say it straight and simply.
> 
> ...


 
But your argument wasn't developing. The times you went back to it to try to explain what you meant you simply reiterated the same thing over and over and didn't engage with what could have made your argument better and more nuanced.

And no, I'm not apologising or being nervous about anything when I post things. When I make an argument I do so because it's what I believe. Everything I said in that post is how I see the issue. It has nothing to do with offending or placating anyone. It's sad that you see things in those terms.

And as for being overly long - that's your opinion. I am verbose by nature. A search of my posts over the years will show that. Why say in 100 words what you can say in 1000, amirite? But seriously, sometimes if you want to get across a relatively nuanced point, 3 bullet-pointed short sentences won't suffice.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't know who you are, Kizmet, I don't know about any history you and others here might have, and I don't consider myself to be a part of any of these little so-called cliques you appear to be obsessed with, but reading through this thread gives me one impression that is very, very clear: you're doing everything in your power to be a shit-stirrer, to get people's ire up, and you come across as a complete and utter sad twat. While you said one thing early on that could have been the starting point for interesting discussions, when anyone said anything at all that could be considered a dissenting opinion to what you wrote you went off at the deep end and started throwing around half-thought-out and frankly incomprehensible bullshit and have barely said anything of any real consequence wrt this subject since. You appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder, that has clearly affected your ability to string together thoughtful posts on this subject, as your only line of defence (apart from pathetically slagging others off all the time) seems to be to reiterate the things you said earlier in more and more convoluted ways without adding anything to it but while thinking that you're elaborating. You're not.
> 
> I'm sure you could have added an interesting strand of debate to this issue had you not got so fucking caught up in personal politics and patheticness along the way.
> 
> What are you achieving by continuing? A sense of power at being able to upset people? Rather apt, I guess.


 
Welcome to the clique.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Welcome to the clique.


 
Do I get a badge?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> How does someone 'prove' impartiality? For all you know I might be the silent leader of a shadowy cabal on here and everyone is secretly in my thrall via PM, following my every move.


 
I know*I* follow your every move, but only as one VP to another, not because you're the Grand Mistress of my Lodge or anything!


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Do I get a badge?


 
And a handy-dandy decoder ring for clique messages.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> To be more precise, your argument on culture went as far as to say that there are different cultures who have different traditions wrt street culture, and we should realise that because it would make things easier to deal with - the implication being that we should recognise it's just a part of someone's culture and if we did so we wouldn't feel victimised by being cat-called anymore. You placed the root of the problem at the feet of those who suffer street harassment, by suggesting they should just understand it's a part of someone's culture. You went no further. That's why it sounds like it's apologist. "They can't help it, that's just the way they were brought up. Give them a break. You need to learn to let it wash over you." When challenged about that position you got defensive, simply kept reiterating it over and over without any kind of further investigation. As my post on the same matter showed (I hope), while understanding cultural differences can be one starting point, it needs to move beyond that to understand the effects it has on people regardless of that, because of the context of real gender bias and sexism within society, the threats that women face daily, and the institutional oppression and objectification women face. Your argument ignored that context, and you seemed to consistently ignore any reasons for criticism by simply restating your point and digging your heels in. The rights and wrongs of the way you and others have been acting towards each other wrt any historical problems you have with each other don't interest me. What I care about is why you weren't prepared to take on board any criticism of your original post and dug your heels in in quite the way you did. It's that behaviour that explains why I believe you were the catalyst here, regardless of whether others unnecessarily continued and exacerbated the problem.



That's the thing... if you don't read it carefully and take time to think then you might come to such an assumption...

But, in actual fact, its about the exact opposite... its about taking the "victim" completely out of the context so that no questions can be asked about what they were wearing or doing or how they looked. The point was to talk about the external factors that mean that "anyone" can be a target regardless of gender/appearance/status.

You can only do that when you remove the actions of the victim from the consideration.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Do I get a badge?


 

tatoo. and if you leave it comes off via fire or knife. Just like in 'Sons of Anarchy'


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> oh fuck me


 
Only if you supply the lube.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> And I remember asking you to simply show me what I said that was apologist.
> 
> I mean its that easy.


Well after previous interactions with you in the past where I have engaged, yet gone on to feel like I've ended up banging my head against a brick wall, plus after seeing you have similar interactions with others, this is exactly what I meant about losing my patience. And to be fair to you, it's not _solely_ losing patience with you, as with all arguments from men in this vein. There's only so long you can offer reasoned critiques, in part involving your own deeply personal experiences, and see it be completely disregarded before you opt to either ignore or be a bit more brusque. It's got to the point where if someone can't see how their words are excusing unacceptable behaviour, then what is the fucking point of me pointing it out to them. I've had these sorts of arguments to death, and I've got to the point of fed upness where I can't always stay reasonable. I suspect I'm not always alone in this.



> Its interesting how both you and vintage paw say you post less because of this kind of personal shit nowadays and I've only been back a few months after a couple of years off. So it can't be because of me you hardly post anymore.


And I never said it was anything about you personally .



> Lets remember one important fact... just because someone is popular it does not mean that they are a good person. Nor does being unpopular mean that you are a bad one.


But this isn't about popularity or unpopularity or goodness or badness, it's about the words people write on here.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> But your argument wasn't developing. The times you went back to it to try to explain what you meant you simply reiterated the same thing over and over and didn't engage with what could have made your argument better and more nuanced.



How on earth do you expect it to develop in an environment when the same old faces are trying their hardest to distract and discourage it?

The fact is... as you admit... I just made a point and didn't bring any personal beef into it. Other did that.

You are asking me to be the bigger person and ignore it all. However I am confident that I am big enough and now I am waiting to see who else is big enough to call that kind of behaviour out.



> And as for being overly long - that's your opinion. I am verbose by nature. A search of my posts over the years will show that. Why say in 100 words what you can say in 1000, amirite? But seriously, sometimes if you want to get across a relatively nuanced point, 3 bullet-pointed short sentences won't suffice.



I'm the other way round. In general I prefer to start much shorter and become more open if a conversation takes off.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> That's the thing... if you don't read it carefully and take time to think then you might come to such an assumption...
> 
> But, in actual fact, its about the exact opposite... its about taking the "victim" completely out of the context so that no questions can be asked about what they were wearing or doing or how they looked. The point was to talk about the external factors that mean that "anyone" can be a target regardless of gender/appearance/status.
> 
> You can only do that when you remove the actions of the victim from the consideration.


 
The idea that anyone can be a target is only partly correct though. Removing the victim means removing the context. If we're talking about sexualised street harassment against women, then the fact that it is sexualised street harassment against women is an important factor. You have to look at the whole. Breaking parts down to investigate on their own terms has some validity, but it ultimately a pointless exercise unless you reintegrate those parts to see how and why they exist together in the way that they do.

I can understand the desire to avoid a situation where the way a woman is dressed is brought into this kind of discussion. Because that way leads to victim blaming. But that doesn't mean we abandon entire lines of discussion, and have a poorer understanding of the whole as a result. No, what it means is that we encourage detail and nuance and thoughtfulness and empathy and understanding and honesty and context. Nuance is something that is woefully lacking in so many public debates. Perhaps it has always been that way, but fast-paced internet discussion does seem to engender it more so. Arguments so often have to be one thing or the other, they can't be an intelligent mixture of several things. Our critical faculties suffer as a result.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Aug 18, 2013)

newbie said:


> personally I agree, the risk of my own embarrassment and the other persons discomfort is greater than any possible benefit. So I'm very, very unlikely to initiate any sort of conversation, and have never given a stranger a _compliment_ in my life. Far too intrusive, far too risky.
> 
> I'm well aware I conform to the standard London reputation, held by those from the provinces or abroad, as standoffish and unfriendly. Isn't the open approachability of my fil a better model, where chatter and banter are commonplace? Is it really always best to keep clammed up?
> 
> ...


Just realised I hadn't responded to this yet. I agree with pretty much everything you've posted here. There is an interesting debate about sociability with strangers, particularly in a big city. Interestingly enough I have sometimes given women compliments (usually relating to something unusually amazing, such as a fantastic multicoloured hairstyle or an unusual but lovely item of clothing), but I've been told that I can come across as quite sweet and genuine so perhaps feel more secure that they'll be taken in the right way they're intended. And fwiw they always have been met with what seems to be genuine appreciation. However, one day I might get it wrong and look like I'm taking the piss. It's still risk assessment I guess. 

I also quite like random conversations at bus stops, as long as they're not too early in the morning.  I very rarely am the instigator though. My mum is a lot better at it than me, but then my mum is also one of those women who can outwardly project her internal monologue and doesn't seem to care so much what people might think of her.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> And a handy-dandy decoder ring for clique messages.



Here's the weird thing... everyone knows that in almost every community, every social group, every organization cliques form and sometimes compete.

I mean its standard human behaviour... but no clique should get too much control or that becomes bad for everyone.

So I find it strange that you would go out of your way to try and convince everyone that somehow on urban it doesn't exist... when quite clearly it does.

It makes you look shifty.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2013)

not wise to pass even favourable comment on another mans shirt at 11 30 in town on a friday night though. Maybe you can get away with it as a woman. Otherwise you are booking a cruise to the costa del bruise


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 18, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> not wise to pass even favourable comment on another mans shirt at 11 30 in town on a friday night though. Maybe you can get away with it as a woman. Otherwise you are booking a cruise to the costa del bruise


No, tbf I have never complimented a random man on the street. Maybe this makes me a sexist? 

The fella says that he has been complimented on a particular T-shirt at festivals and the Lambeth Country Show and he fully appreciated it each time. Mind you, he did make a Bender costume for Boomtown last year so I suspect he's a bit of a secret exhibitionist.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> No, tbf I have never complimented a random man on the street. Maybe this makes me a sexist?
> 
> The fella says that he has been complimented on a particular T-shirt at festivals and the Lambeth Country Show and he fully appreciated it each time. Mind you, he did make a Bender costume for Boomtown last year so I suspect he's a bit of a secret exhibitionist.


 
Whether we think of ourselves as feminists or not, whether we have been in the past or are regularly subjected to sexism, and no matter how aware of it we are, we're all still creations of our environment, and as such I think it's inevitable we will do certain things that are prescribed by gendered bias, unfortunate as that is. At the very least, recognising that is useful though.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that makes you sexist. The expression of power dynamic is different, even though it's informed by the same root causes.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> The idea that anyone can be a target is only partly correct though. Removing the victim means removing the context. If we're talking about sexualised street harassment against women, then the fact that it is sexualised street harassment against women is an important factor. You have to look at the whole. Breaking parts down to investigate on their own terms has some validity, but it ultimately a pointless exercise unless you reintegrate those parts to see how and why they exist together in the way that they do.



That's exactly my method... take it apart... examine each but individually and then put it all back together again see how it works.

But as you say this takes time, subtlety and nuance.



> I can understand the desire to avoid a situation where the way a woman is dressed is brought into this kind of discussion. Because that way leads to victim blaming.



So can you now understand when people accused me of victim blaming why I just restated the original point? How can you argue fairly with people who assume you mean the opposite if what you actually say? 



> But that doesn't mean we abandon entire lines of discussion, and have a poorer understanding of the whole as a result. No, what it means is that we encourage detail and nuance and thoughtfulness and empathy and understanding and honesty and context. Nuance is something that is woefully lacking in so many public debates. Perhaps it has always been that way, but fast-paced internet discussion does seem to engender it more so. Arguments so often have to be one thing or the other, they can't be an intelligent mixture of several things. Our critical faculties suffer as a result.



I totally agree. And I think we have to fight for our rights to be able to have these nuanced discussions without the nature of fast paced boards destroying them. That means sometimes fighting the people we like.

Which in this case appears to be you, Agent Sparrow, Panda and JimW.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> But this isn't about popularity or unpopularity or goodness or badness, it's about the words people write on here.



I wish that was the case but its not.

Otherwise you would be able to post something that I said that was apologist, sexist or racist directly instead of talking about how things 'seem' or what you assumed. Because those  things are affected by group dynamics whereas words are easily quoteable and are not so much.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> That's exactly my method... take it apart... examine each but individually and then put it all back together again see how it works.
> 
> But as you say this takes time, subtlety and nuance.
> 
> ...


 
Can you see that I'm trying to move the discussion back to the subject of street harassment, whereas you can't help but keep bringing it back to you and others and any personal arguments that are happening?

I simply do not care one little bit about that stuff. Carry on if you want, I'll engage with it no longer. I'll continue to talk about the subject in hand. Join in or don't, that's up to you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> No, tbf I have never complimented a random man on the street. Maybe this makes me a sexist?


 
my days, I can feel the oppressor vibe radiating from you even over the internet. Let my people go!


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Can you see that I'm trying to move the discussion back to the subject of street harassment, whereas you can't help but keep bringing it back to you and others and any personal arguments that are happening?
> 
> I simply do not care one little bit about that stuff. Carry on if you want, I'll engage with it no longer. I'll continue to talk about the subject in hand. Join in or don't, that's up to you.



ok, ta.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Here's the weird thing... everyone knows that in almost every community, every social group, every organization cliques form and sometimes compete.
> 
> I mean its standard human behaviour... but no clique should get too much control or that becomes bad for everyone.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not saying cliques don't exist. I'm also not saying that they never exist.

I'm saying that your personal theorisation of a clique that exists to distract and diss you is the product of an arsehole.
A shifty-looking arsehole.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> No, tbf I have never complimented a random man on the street. Maybe this makes me a sexist?
> 
> The fella says that he has been complimented on a particular T-shirt at festivals and the Lambeth Country Show and he fully appreciated it each time. Mind you, he did make a Bender costume for Boomtown last year so I suspect he's a bit of a secret exhibitionist.


 
I feel inspired to make a "Crispy = Bender" t-shirt made.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

AS's 'sexism' (heh) raises a good - and bleedingly obvious - point though:

that this harassment is a problem in the way that it is because it trends in one direction. To some extent the content (or intent) of what men say to women isn't important; women are the targets, the people to be appraised, accosted, pursued, consumed. The handful of examples where it might be a group of women eyeing up a guy shouldn't be used as evidence that 'they can give as good as they get' or that they objectify men too, or whatever. The majority of this behaviour, the trend, the problem, is men -> women. That's the context we have to view this in first and foremost, so as to keep sight of why it can be viewed as a larger social problem even if it's a benign, friendly remark.

(And the reason AS doesn't compliment men in the same way is part of that - women are the ones to be complimented on their appearance, and (straight?) women do it as often as men, but in different and often non-threatening and non-sexualised ways.)

(I'm editing this a lot, sorry. I personally don't really like it when women talk about my appearance either. I put that down to my own problems, I bristle in an evil strident feminist way at the idea that we are somehow conditioned to tell women they are pretty, when why should it fucking matter what someone looks like? Perhaps I should just take the compliment. But I don't like it. I have trouble divorcing it from why it happens.)


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Whether we think of ourselves as feminists or not, whether we have been in the past or are regularly subjected to sexism, and no matter how aware of it we are, we're all still creations of our environment, and as such I think it's inevitable we will do certain things that are prescribed by gendered bias, unfortunate as that is. At the very least, recognising that is useful though.


 
We're all subject to institutional as well as environmental factors that militate toward us "taking up" certain default subject positions (what we might term "the commonsense view") that we only move away from via exposure to difference, and if we wish to.  I'd argue that much the same can be said of racism.



> I wouldn't go as far as to say that makes you sexist. The expression of power dynamic is different, even though it's informed by the same root causes.


More of a pre-disposition toward it, created by environmental influences, than an active practice, then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 18, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> AS's 'sexism' (heh) raises a good - and bleedingly obvious - point though:
> 
> that this harassment is a problem in the way that it is because it trends in one direction. To some extent the content (or intent) of what men say to women isn't important; women are the targets, the people to be appraised, accosted, pursued, consumed


 
I understand what you're saying, but surely the content and intent of what is said is part and parcel of the objectification, in that it functions reduce the target to an object of appraisal, molestation, pursuit and consumption?




> The handful of examples where it might be a group of women eyeing up a guy shouldn't be used as evidence that 'they can give as good as they get' or that they objectify men too, or whatever. The majority of this behaviour, the trend, the problem, is men -> women. That's the context we have to view this in first and foremost, so as to keep sight of why it can be viewed as a larger social problem even if it's a benign, friendly remark.


 
Even as a benign, friendly remark, it's still the operation of patriarchy and, less broadly, a significant indication of the asymmetric positions of men and women in terms of social equality.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> We're all subject to institutional as well as environmental factors that militate toward us "taking up" certain default subject positions (what we might term "the commonsense view") that we only move away from via exposure to difference, and if we wish to. I'd argue that much the same can be said of racism.
> 
> 
> More of a pre-disposition toward it, created by environmental influences, than an active practice, then?


 
I think I use environment as shorthand for anything external to us that has an influence on our make up, iyswim, so yes, institutional, etc. My vocabulary is often limited in these discussions, so I use what I have to hand. But yes, I'd say it's the same for many things.

I'd be wary of giving the passivity of environmental factors too much power here though. Individuals are still responsible for their actions. It's not one or the other. An understanding of how environmental factors (which actually include the actions of others) shape and reinforce and enable and encourage certain behaviours and beliefs is important, crucial, but agency shouldn't be taken away from people as a result.

Free Will versus Determinism. The very concept of that opposition always annoyed the hell out of me. Posing that question might be an interesting thought experiment, but it bears little relation to the realities of lived experience (god I know some think that phrase is wanky, but sometimes it fits what I mean).


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I understand what you're saying, but surely the content and intent of what is said is part and parcel of the objectification, in that it functions reduce the target to an object of appraisal, molestation, pursuit and consumption?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The bolded part has always been my position. Perhaps I have problems explaining myself, my apologies. That post was meant to highlight that even before we get into the content or intent of what is said, the very fact that men are able to or encouraged to say things to women whereas the opposite is not true means that there is a power imbalance. It wasn't to say the content and intent isn't important. Just that even comments that are benign or intended to be friendly can still legitimately be taken as problematic because that imbalance exists.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 18, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I wish that was the case but its not.
> 
> Otherwise you would be able to post something that I said that was apologist, sexist or racist directly instead of talking about how things 'seem' or what you assumed. Because those things are affected by group dynamics whereas words are easily quoteable and are not so much.


Kizmet, that's not popularity, it's past experience of having the same bloody arguments! And I'm already feeling like I'm ready to introduce my cranium to the external structures of my house.

Vintage Paw, who obviously has more patience than me today, has already given you a detailed description of why the undertone of what you were saying was apologist. You dismissed it by saying it wasn't what you meant. Well, there's two things that are going on then. The first, and the more generous explanation, is that you're not very good at articulating your true views. The second is that your views are implicitly more dodgy than you recognise. 

Anyway fuck this, I'm not wasting any more of my Sunday afternoon on this. I will not be responding to you again on this thread. I value my head and my walls too much.


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## Kizmet (Aug 18, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm not saying cliques don't exist. I'm also not saying that they never exist.
> 
> I'm saying that your personal theorisation of a clique that exists to distract and diss you is the product of an arsehole.
> A shifty-looking arsehole.



I never once said it exists because of me.

Anyway drop it now. Its boring.


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## JimW (Aug 18, 2013)

As luck would have it, I got an unsolicited compliment off a young woman tonight. Not entirely out of the blue, she was already talking to friend of mine when I popped in to see him at his bar. No dodgy dynamic at all, and not even pertinent to the thread (bar that thing of it being done in an entirely non-dubious manner) but first time it's happened in a couple of years so thought I'd brag!


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## Gramsci (Aug 18, 2013)

shygirl said:


> No need for sarcasm, Thora. I agree that solutions are often local and community based, but very often the work is done behind the scenes. As a community activist, I have learnt that it doesn't always help to discuss these things on a very open and widely read forum. That is because it can lead to a hyping up of the problem, misunderstanding and increased tensions.


 
Do not quite understand this.

If solutions to an issue like sexual harassment are to be local and community based how can they be dealt with "behind the scenes"?

I have found this thread illuminating as its not somethings, as a man , that affects me.

So having it openly discussed is useful.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 18, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Do not quite understand this.
> 
> If solutions to an issue like sexual harassment are to be local and community based how can they be dealt with "behind the scenes"?
> 
> ...


 
I'd agree with this. Just because there's a danger of things being misunderstood etc. doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed. It means that we should try harder to ensure there are no misunderstandings. Otherwise you lock down debate simply because it might get awkward and messy. These things _are_ awkward and messy, and precisely because there is so much room for misunderstanding it's important to make sure it's all out there, so we can talk about it.


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## Gramsci (Aug 18, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> What would be your ideal way of me writing about this issue for a local blog?


 
You could preface the article with research on sexual harassment in London. Such as the YouGov poll.

Then try relate that to womens experience in Brixton as being typical of London as a whole.

You also might want to contact the local police to see what what there policies on this issue are.

You might want to try to contact an academic who has done research on this.

Social research is different from asking people to come forward with there personal experience.

Though it appears there has been little research on sexual harassment.



> The subject is not widely discussed but the fact is that it is a routine, everyday occurrence for younger women. There is no research on the prevalence of sexual harassment in the UK, nor on its impact, although some ongoing qualitative research in London is beginning to find that the impacts are very wide-ranging – from increasing women’s fear of crime and making them change their behaviour, to affecting body image and choice of dress.


 
BTW be good idea if the article you are writing is in the Bugle as well as the Blog. As would reach more people.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 18, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> You could preface the article with research on sexual harassment in London. Such as the YouGov poll.
> 
> Then try relate that to womens experience in Brixton as being typical of London as a whole.
> 
> ...


 

Thank you for this. I find this very helpful - was going to structure the piece with the first two points you mentioned above. Want to include something about what you can do e.g. local police, so I'll see if I get a response from them. However, I don't think harassment is really going to show up in police stats because no one really reports this low level kind of stuff. We can really only go on Yougov/Hollaback etc. Also, more widely what people can do e.g. everydaysexism project.  Not sure if I have any leads on social research though....


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## Smyz (Aug 18, 2013)

That yougov report mentions that Lambeth council ran a campaign about this.



> A good example was the 'Flirt/Harass: Real Men Know the Difference' poster campaign by Lambeth council in partnership with the Metropolitan Police, which conveyed a no-tolerance message.



Could ask the council for more information --and use the poster as an illustration.


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

newbie said:


> just the opposite I'd have thought. Anyone who doesn't view this behaviour as problematic is justifying oppressive and sexist projection of power. That, at least, is the tone of almost every post in this thread, and in every other thread, conversation, article. Almost, not quite, as your post and those you cite demonstrates.
> 
> Yet from observation that is not universal. Plenty, ime the clear majority, of such interactions lead to the woman looking uncomfortable and obviously getting away as quickly as possible, and the bloke looking crestfallen. Some don't though, sometime the woman being called out to responds in kind and appears to positively enjoy the experience. I don't know if she really does, or if she's acting or if it's simply a defence mechanism.
> 
> ...


 

As my post on the first page implies, this is my take. Outside of the extreme examples and genuine threats/abuse, it's not as simple saying that blokes are taking a power trip. A regular poster earlier mentioned having felt uplifted by a stranger saying "Good evening" and then after they passed "I was just admiring you". It was welcome and I can understand why. But I can also understand that someone might be made to feel uncomfortable by the same comment. In fact, how the same person might be made to feel uncomfortable by the same comment from a different person or even just on a different day.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a guy make what I would consider to be a high risk remark like "hey sexy lady" in the street and, even after a sometimes not very favourable initial reply, very quickly engage in a two way flirty conversation in the middle of the day and even the exchange of numbers. I often see ladies keep on walking past but with a big grin. It seems to me that in many cases it is about trying to get noticed (and I'm not suggesting that only those who are lacking in confidence and attention want to be noticed) rather than a power trip. And it is pretty common place around here because, from what I have seen, many women respond positively to it.


----------



## Smyz (Aug 19, 2013)

A lot of the women who do respond positively have been groomed by a sexist society to believe that their self worth depends on being attractive to men. Older women are much less likely to tolerate disrespectful approaches --as I think a few people have pointed out on this thread.


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

Smyz said:


> A lot of the women who do respond positively have been groomed by a sexist society to believe that their self worth depends on being attractive to men. Older women are much less likely to tolerate disrespectful approaches --as I think a few people have pointed out on this thread.


 
A lot? Or all? If not all, what are the other reasons that women react positively?


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## Smyz (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> A lot? Or all? If not all, what are the other reasons that women react positively?


They all grew up in a sexist society. How many do you think are immune to the pressures by the time they get to puberty?

Older women are the only people who can tell you how their attitudes have changed over time --and why.


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2013)

Smyz said:


> A lot of the women who do respond positively have been groomed by a sexist society to believe that their self worth depends on being attractive to men. Older women are much less likely to tolerate disrespectful approaches --as I think a few people have pointed out on this thread.


 
I agree with Rushy here. Its not as simple as a power trip. The Council campaign was about the difference between flirting and harassment for example.

To say women respond positively because they have been groomed is getting into the false consciousness argument.


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## Thora (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't know about anyone else, the the polite/pleasant/admiring comments I have had have been far outnumbered by the whistles, shouting, boob/cock comments, general abuse, approaching or following me (particularly when I have my child with me).  So ime, while some men might be genuinely trying to flirt, the majority are not (or are doing so really inappropriately eg. kerb crawling a woman with a baby to get her number).


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## Smyz (Aug 19, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I agree with Rushy here. Its not as simple as a power trip. The Council campaign was about the difference between flirting and harassment for example.
> 
> To say women respond positively because they have been groomed is getting into the false consciousness argument.


I said "disrespectful approaches"and I was responding to someone who was wondering why disrespectful approaches sometimes get a positive response.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 19, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> .


 


Smyz said:


> That yougov report mentions that Lambeth council ran a campaign about this.
> 
> 
> 
> Could ask the council for more information --and use the poster as an illustration.


Yep, I was going to mention this @S A Villarino - Lambeth did a campaign around rape a few years ago [http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/KnowTheDifference/index.htm] and more recently (Oct 2012) did a campaign around sexual harrassment [Women's Safety Charter - which they tried to get bars & clubs etc to sign up to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/95...ng-groped-in-nightclubs-Brixton-beckons.html], as well as re-running the 'Know the Difference' campaign at Christmas time: http://lambethnews.wordpress.com/20...l-violence-ahead-of-expected-spike-in-crimes/

Might be worth trying to speak to the relevant officer(s) at the council as they will probably be well versed in it.


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

Smyz said:


> I said "disrespectful approaches"and I was responding to someone who was wondering why disrespectful approaches sometimes get a positive response.


 
To be fair, I did not define them as disrespectful approaches. I'd be very hesitant to label a comment as disrespectful solely because someone takes offence. As the first paragraph of my post sets out, I'm querying the intention and subjectivity of offense (and excluded obviously abusive or threatening contact). Comments may not be intended offensively and may or may not be interpreted as being offensive - different communities, cultures and individuals will probably have very different norms. 

I was interested that your response said that a lot of women who do respond positively have been groomed by a sexist society to believe that their self worth depends on being attractive to men. By saying _a lot_ you seemed to imply "not all" but you then appeared to correct this to suggest that you mean't _all_ women do so because as all women have been groomed. Have I understood that correctly?


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## Smyz (Aug 19, 2013)

All women have been groomed. Not all women respond positively to being cat-called.


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 19, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> .


@S A Villarino here's a thread from the time of the launch of the Women's Safety Charter last year  http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/brixton-womens-safety-charter.299787/


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

Smyz said:


> All women have been groomed. Not all women respond positively to being cat-called.


 
Fair enough. I can see you're not comfortable with my question and I respect that.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 19, 2013)

Having been on the receiving end of sexual street harassment it has felt very much about power.  Not just power but also humiliation and showing off to mates/bravado. I mentioned this earlier in the thread. 

Also I discussed this with the researcher that was doing the study on sexual street harassment and she said that these were common themes brought up by other participants too.

Rushy Gramsci


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## weepiper (Aug 19, 2013)

Have we had a woman who's taken issue with it being a power trip yet? Only it seems like a lot of us perceive it to be about that, and a couple of men have disputed that it is.


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## Thora (Aug 19, 2013)

It's quite interesting that a thread that started off about sexual harassment has become "maybe it's banter/flirting/interactions that is taken the wrong way".  It doesn't seem to me that there is actually a big grey area or fine line - most of the unwanted attention directed towards women that has been noted on this thread is aggressive, humiliating or threatening.


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## stethoscope (Aug 19, 2013)

It's overwhelmingly felt about men exercising their power over me when this stuff happens. And the unsolicited sort of stuff being primarily talked about here is very different to the what is genuine pleasant comments you sometimes get from what I usually find are older men (and hark back to more 'old fashioned' values).

The occasion where I actually stood up and made a quick retort back to a guy's verbal and sexual abuse near my flat when I was back in Stratford, he proceeded to follow me almost up to my doorstep. Whilst he did so, he didn't say anything else, or try and physically assault me, but just did his best to intimidate. It worked.

Numerous times I've had a man say something to me on the street as I'm passing, sexually-oriented and 'complimentary' (that is, a compliment on his terms), and when I've ignored, the torrent of abuse comes straight after - 'fucking ignorant bitch'. If this isn't wielding power because you haven't reacted subserviently to them then what is it?

And when being perceived as trans/queer is also part of that equation, that sexually-oriented/gender-based dynamic soon breaks into homophobia/misogyny - whether you react or not. Regardless of the initial comment ('nice legs sexy', wolf-whistle), then follows the accusations that 'you might be a man', 'didn't fancy you anyway ugly bitch'. Very much again, the male perpetrator employing a power dynamic to express that you are lesser than him/don't conform/meet 'his standards'.


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## Thora (Aug 19, 2013)

I have experienced some approaches in Bristol which I would put in the category of flirting/genuinely trying to get my number.  Although I have found it irritating or a bit inappropriate (eg, outside my workplace or compliments on my arse) a polite "no thanks" was met with no further comments or abuse.  Bristol is the kind of city where people talk to strangers in the street anyway, but in any case you can't tell how that kind of interaction will go.  And still, I have experienced and witnessed more of the aggressive kind of harassment.

I found Paris the worst place for just utterly relentless, mostly low-level harassment.  Every time I walked down the street alone there were comments, every time I sat next to a spare seat on the train some bloke would be there within minutes, followed home from the bus stop - just constantly on your guard.  It was mostly in the suburb I was living but friends of mine also got groped and verbally abused on the metro in the city centre if they were alone at night.

Lived in Berlin for two years and never, ever, not even once got shouted at, abused, bothered on public transport - nothing like that.  Chatted to in bars or clubs yes, I can remember once a bloke being a bit overly friendly and not taking hints in a club, but that was it.  I don't know what was different in Berlin but it just didn't seem to be acceptable behaviour at all.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 19, 2013)

steph liking that because I recognise much of what you say.

Esp the stuff about them turning nasty if you don't bat your eyelashes or whatever at them. At times, I have responded to that quite forcefully in cases where they have been particularly explicit or intrusive.

The abuse ive had back has ranged from the generic and pathetic err your a lezzer then, blates to stuff about my skin colour. I've found the skin colour more difficult than any of the other types of verbal that I've gotten...


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## Manter (Aug 19, 2013)

Thora said:


> It's quite interesting that a thread that started off about sexual harassment has become "maybe it's banter/flirting/interactions that is taken the wrong way".  It doesn't seem to me that there is actually a big grey area or fine line - most of the unwanted attention directed towards women that has been noted on this thread is aggressive, humiliating or threatening.


Completely agree. I think the 'it's complicated' brigade are often being disingenuous- no one seriously believes that statements including bitch or whore are complimentary, and no one can be confused that a 'compliment' from a man standing too close late at night at a deserted bus stop is threatening.


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## Thora (Aug 19, 2013)

steph said:


> It's overwhelmingly felt about men exercising their power over me when this stuff happens. And the unsolicited sort of stuff being primarily talked about here is very different to the what is genuine pleasant comments you sometimes get from what I usually find are older men (and hark back to more 'old fashioned' values).
> 
> The occasion where I actually stood up and made a quick retort back to a guy's verbal and sexual abuse near my flat when I was back in Stratford, he proceeded to follow me almost up to my doorstep. Whilst he did so, he didn't say anything else, or try and physically assault me, but just did his best to intimidate. It worked.
> 
> ...


That's the thing isn't it?  A man making a fairly innocuous comment (maybe a compliment or a request for a number or that you stop and speak to him) might not know if it is going to be well received or not - but then the woman on the other end of it doesn't know if her refusal is going to result in him backing down or in getting verbal abuse or even violence back.


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## TopCat (Aug 19, 2013)

I think the line between flirting with a stranger and being a huge cunt is quite clearly defined in most men's eyes. Unfortunately the remainder (of men) are pretty busy blokes.


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

Manter said:


> Completely agree. I think the 'it's complicated' brigade are often being disingenuous- no one seriously believes that statements including bitch or whore are complimentary, and no one can be confused that a 'compliment' from a man standing too close late at night at a deserted bus stop is threatening.


 

Has anyone actually suggested that?


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## Manter (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Has anyone actually suggested that?


It seems to me to have come pretty close at times, tbh


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

Manter said:


> It seems to me to have come pretty close at times, tbh


 
Seriously? Where? Are people just being careless with the use of the word harassment? I can't recall reading any comments which even come close to implying that comments including bitch and whore are intended to be complimentary or acceptable in anyway.


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## stethoscope (Aug 19, 2013)

Thora said:


> That's the thing isn't it? A man making a fairly innocuous comment (maybe a compliment or a request for a number or that you stop and speak to him) might not know if it is going to be well received or not - but then the woman on the other end of it doesn't know if her refusal is going to result in him backing down or in getting verbal abuse or even violence back.


 
Thing is, I don't mind a bit of interaction, especially in summer, from a guy unsolicited in this way (well, possibly apart from the 'stop and speak to him' which I find can be a demand, not just a pleasantry) if its all good natured/complimentary. I had a young bloke last year do this 'trying his luck', and as I was seeing my boyf at time, I politely said that I was taken. He laughed it off with 'oh well, man has got to try - have a nice day love'. And that was it - as someone who struggles sometimes with my confidence, it actually cheered me up for the rest of the day! It didn't feel pressured.

Which seems to me to be clearly drawn in opposition to those situations on the street whereby a man seems to have no real desire to actually want to interact with you personally/pay you a compliment without any strings attached, and merely wants to assert his ability to tell you (and anyone in earshot) precisely what he thinks of you/about you (usually in terms of your physical attractiveness to him).


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## goldenecitrone (Aug 19, 2013)

Thora said:


> I don't know what was different in Berlin but it just didn't seem to be acceptable behaviour at all.


 
It's full of Germans. Paris is full of Frenchies.


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

steph said:


> Thing is, I don't mind a bit of interaction, especially in summer, from a guy unsolicited in this way (well, possibly apart from the 'stop and speak to him' which I find is often a demand, not just a pleasant request) if its all good natured/complimentary. I had a young bloke last year do this trying his luck, and as I was at the time with a boyf, I politely said that I was taken. He laughed it off with 'oh well, man has got to try - have a nice day love'. And that was it - as someone who struggles sometimes with my confidence, it actually cheered me up for the rest of the day! It didn't feel pressured.


 

But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this? 

Forget about the following it up with abuse - I really can't see that anyone would argue that was acceptable in any way shape or form. The minefield is the more innocuous stuff because it so clearly has the potential to go either way.


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## weepiper (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this?
> 
> Forget about the following it up with abuse - I really can't see that anyone would argue that was acceptable in any way shape or form. The minefield is the more innocuous stuff because it so clearly has the potential to go either way.


 

We feel harassed by this because it so often ends up with a mouthful of abuse if you don't give the 'correct' response. And knowing what the 'correct' response is isn't easy sometimes. We feel it's harassing behaviour because we're _primed_ for the 'must be a fucking lesbian, stuck up bitch, didn't want to fuck you anyway' retort.


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## JimW (Aug 19, 2013)

That's how it goes with unsolicited interactions, isn't it? You might not have overly hostile or creepy intent but you can't legislate for how it's going to be taken and there's that thing of not thinking that your personal lack of ill-will has to be set against the constant drip-drip-drip of unwelcome stuff the woman you approach has more than likely dealt with. So while I agree it can clearly sometimes go well, the odds are really against it IMO even if you're not an arsehole.


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## stethoscope (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this?


 
Yes, because there are times when I _have_ felt harassed/uncomfortable myself by this stuff happening. Mainly because its difficult to always know the reaction you're going to get - although you try to 'read' the situation as best as possible.


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

steph said:


> Numerous times I've had a man say something to me on the street as I'm passing, sexually-oriented and 'complimentary' (that is, a compliment on his terms), and when I've ignored, the torrent of abuse comes straight after - 'fucking ignorant bitch'. If this isn't wielding power because you haven't reacted subserviently to them then what is it?


 

It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of _lack_ of power and impotence.


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## cesare (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of _lack_ of power and impotence.


That might be the reason for it, but the lashing out is an attempt to assert/reassert dominance.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 19, 2013)

cesare said:


> That might be the reason for it, but the lashing out is an attempt to assert/reassert dominance.



Exactly.


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> As my post on the first page implies, this is my take. Outside of the extreme examples and genuine threats/abuse, it's not as simple saying that blokes are taking a power trip. A regular poster earlier mentioned having felt uplifted by a stranger saying "Good evening" and then after they passed "I was just admiring you". It was welcome and I can understand why. But I can also understand that someone might be made to feel uncomfortable by the same comment. In fact, how the same person might be made to feel uncomfortable by the same comment from a different person or even just on a different day.
> 
> I've lost count of the number of times I've seen a guy make what I would consider to be a high risk remark like "hey sexy lady" in the street and, even after a sometimes not very favourable initial reply, very quickly engage in a two way flirty conversation in the middle of the day and even the exchange of numbers. I often see ladies keep on walking past but with a big grin. It seems to me that in many cases it is about trying to get noticed (and I'm not suggesting that only those who are lacking in confidence and attention want to be noticed) rather than a power trip. And it is pretty common place around here because, from what I have seen, many women respond positively to it.


 
Sometimes we smile simply because we don't want the pricks to know they have got to us and we just grin and walk on. Cos that's how it feels...not like a compliment but that they are invading my space and leering at me...often with a crude call of some kind. I am trying to go buy milk ffs, I don't need this shit.
Personally I am a fan of shouting back or giving them the middle finger as I walk off, but not every woman likes to engage with them even that much.


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## stethoscope (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of _lack_ of power and impotence.


 
The man initiates the situation unsolicited, and doesn't get the response he wants? So, surely, any kind of 'lashing out' is therefore driven by him asserting his dominance/power?


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## Thora (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> But from what I can see this is the grey bit. Can you imagine that some women might harassed by this?
> 
> Forget about the following it up with abuse - I really can't see that anyone would argue that was acceptable in any way shape or form. The minefield is the more innocuous stuff because it so clearly has the potential to go either way.


OK, but this "minefield" is so small that is it even worth discussing in relation to street harassment?  Occasionally there's an unsolicited interaction which isn't harassing, but I don't think it really throws up a grey area or means that it is a minefield for blokes who just want to pick up strangers in the street.

It feels like it is minimising the impact of street harassment tbh.


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 19, 2013)

To me it seems fucking obvious the difference between chatting someone up and engaging in this sort of neanderthal shouting from scaffolding/vehicles or a huddle of other cretins. To chat someone up is to engage them in conversation. To show a little politeness and respect and be aware that if the recipient is not as eager as you, you should back off.


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## Manter (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Seriously? Where? Are people just being careless with the use of the word harassment? I can't recall reading any comments which even come close to implying that comments including bitch and whore are intended to be complimentary or acceptable in anyway.


I didn't say that- the point I was trying to make is that a series of (male, I think) posters have brought in the whole talking to people in the street thing, people just trying to be friendly, innocuous comments that get taken the wrong way etc. I honestly don't think that is a big/serious problem- the time and context is usually pretty clear, and men can't be surprised at the reactions they get if they are putting a woman in a situation where she feels threatened. IMO, a genuine compliment is almost always taken as such, but a genuine compliment is not shouting nice arse at someone as you walk past- ot's a compliment you might pay a friend- that you'd be comfortable if your sister overheard. It is completely different to chatting to someone in the street, I am more than happy to strike up a conversation with a stranger; but it's a conversation, not a "leer and response". To mix the two up is, IMO, the start of the feminism has gone too far/ women are over sensitive slope. Talk to women by all means, but treat them as humans- if it's a situation where she may feel threatened, don't. If she looks uncomfortable after your initial approach, back off- apologise, even. I'm not saying you don't do any of those things, I'm just saying that cutting out all public interaction in case it gets misunderstood is an overreaction (and risks being reductio ad absurdum to make a point- oh, i daren't even smile at a pretty girl anymore because these humourless feminists blah blah).


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

cesare said:


> That might be the reason for it, but the lashing out is an attempt to assert/reassert dominance.


 
Sure. But as you say, it is an _attempt_ rather than an actual reassertion of power. That person knows they don't have the power to get what they want. Either way, it's shit and unacceptable.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 19, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Have we had a woman who's taken issue with it being a power trip yet? Only it seems like a lot of us perceive it to be about that, and a couple of men have disputed that it is.


 
I think there's possibly an element of "it can't be a power trip, 'cos I've done it, and I didn't mean no harm/get off on it" going on.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 19, 2013)

Thora said:


> It's quite interesting that a thread that started off about sexual harassment has become "maybe it's banter/flirting/interactions that is taken the wrong way". It doesn't seem to me that there is actually a big grey area or fine line - most of the unwanted attention directed towards women that has been noted on this thread is aggressive, humiliating or threatening.


 
The old old story of some men not being prepared to take responsibility/accept the fact that some males are predatory fucks, and therefore viewing any conception of some men as such as being wrongheaded/misinformed/lesbo-feminazi, perhaps?


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of _lack_ of power and impotence.


 

Yes, it is frightening. You seem to be suggesting that we should not be frightened of a shouting man because he's shouting because he's weak and impotent, and not intending to terrify and intimidate me? I'm still being shouted at


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 19, 2013)

steph said:


> It's overwhelmingly felt about men exercising their power over me when this stuff happens. And the unsolicited sort of stuff being primarily talked about here is very different to the what is genuine pleasant comments you sometimes get from what I usually find are older men (and hark back to more 'old fashioned' values).
> 
> The occasion where I actually stood up and made a quick retort back to a guy's verbal and sexual abuse near my flat when I was back in Stratford, he proceeded to follow me almost up to my doorstep. Whilst he did so, he didn't say anything else, or try and physically assault me, but just did his best to intimidate. It worked.
> 
> ...


 
Part of it is also that you're refusing to "fulfill your role" and *accept* your place as lesser than him.  That annoys and confuses the kind of dickbrains who go in for this sort of abuse, and long may it do so.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 19, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I think the line between flirting with a stranger and being a huge cunt is quite clearly defined in most men's eyes. Unfortunately the remainder (of men) are pretty busy blokes.


You say "blokes", I say "wilfully-ignorant, wilfully-immature meatsacks".


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## Manter (Aug 19, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> Yes, it is frightening. You seem to be suggesting that we should not be frightened of a shouting man because he's shouting because he's weak and impotent, and not intending to terrify and intimidate me? I'm still being shouted at


Yes- this- but also being shouted at by someone who nine times out of ten is physically stronger than you and, if he wanted to, could hurt you quite badly. I'm not doing the all men are rapists crap, but I think a serious issue that can be underestimated is that women are often physically vulnerable, or are made to feel physically vulnerable when they are being verbally abused. And the shouting from a car, group of mates or whatever, even if it comes from a male feeling of rejection and powerlessness, exacerbates, for me, that feeling of vulnerability.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of _lack_ of power and impotence.


 
A desperate lashing out by the same usual suspects day after day in some areas?
If you were talking about one-off incidents by disparate disenfranchised males I might agree with you, but it's often the same little ensemble of creeps, hanging round the same handfull of locations, that spew out this stuff.  That doesn't speak to me of the desperate lashing out of someone who's socially and/or economically disempowered, it speaks to me of learned behaviour whose exertion is primarily as a stimulant and entertainment for said creeps, and (as you may or may not have noted) is generally *only* exerted against targets who appear unlikely to react physically to the verbals.  I'm not sure that if it were "as a result of an immense lack of power", it'd be quite so selective with targets.


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## Manter (Aug 19, 2013)

steph the being identified as trans/queer thing is interesting. I know gay men who sometimes cross dress rather than trans women (as far as I know!) and one of them said to me it is fear, in his opinion. Having a sexual reaction to someone who you subsequently realise is a bloke (in this case) confuses and terrifies a certain sort of man who then has to lash out to reassert his masculinity. This guy I  thinking of recently moved to Dublin and, interestingly, says he gets less abuse there. Men laugh wryly when they realise he is also a man, rather than trying to lash out at him. Interesting to me as the Irish are seen as more conservative and Catholic than the English...


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> A desperate lashing out by the same usual suspects day after day in some areas?
> If you were talking about one-off incidents by disparate disenfranchised males I might agree with you, but it's often the same little ensemble of creeps, hanging round the same handfull of locations, that spew out this stuff. That doesn't speak to me of the desperate lashing out of someone who's socially and/or economically disempowered, it speaks to me of learned behaviour whose exertion is primarily as a stimulant and entertainment for said creeps, and (as you may or may not have noted) is generally *only* exerted against targets who appear unlikely to react physically to the verbals. I'm not sure that if it were "as a result of an immense lack of power", it'd be quite so selective with targets.


 

Yep. Someone who is weak lashes out at those they perceive as weaker.

Little knowing they are getting _ripped to shreds_ on a lefty message board on the internet


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> A desperate lashing out by the same usual suspects day after day in some areas?
> If you were talking about one-off incidents by disparate disenfranchised males I might agree with you, but it's often the same little ensemble of creeps, hanging round the same handfull of locations, that spew out this stuff. That doesn't speak to me of the desperate lashing out of someone who's socially and/or economically disempowered, it speaks to me of learned behaviour whose exertion is primarily as a stimulant and entertainment for said creeps, and (as you may or may not have noted) is generally *only* exerted against targets who appear unlikely to react physically to the verbals. I'm not sure that if it were "as a result of an immense lack of power", it'd be quite so selective with targets.


 

I don't disagree with any of that. I was thinking of more isolated one offs rather than than people regularly hanging out in the same spot targeting the same people every day as the isolated experiences seem to be what is being described and what motivated the OP.


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## emanymton (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of _lack_ of power and impotence.


I think it can be an attempt to regain a sense of power over women that many men don't have in their lives but which they feel they should. Does that make sense?


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 19, 2013)

emanymton said:


> I think it can be an attempt to regain a sense of power of women that many men don't have in their lives but which they feel they should. Does that make sense?


 

Makes sense to me. Woman still gets shouted at.


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## stethoscope (Aug 19, 2013)

Manter said:


> steph the being identified as trans/queer thing is interesting. I know gay men who sometimes cross dress rather than trans women (as far as I know!) and one of them said to me it is fear, in his opinion. Having a sexual reaction to someone who you subsequently realise is a bloke (in this case) confuses and terrifies a certain sort of man who then has to lash out to reassert his masculinity. This guy I thinking of recently moved to Dublin and, interestingly, says he gets less abuse there. Men laugh wryly when they realise he is also a man, rather than trying to lash out at him. Interesting to me as the Irish are seen as more conservative and Catholic than the English...


 
Have PM'd as I didnt want to distract too much from this thread


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## Rushy (Aug 19, 2013)

emanymton said:


> I think it can be an attempt to regain a sense of power over women that many men don't have in their lives but which they feel they should. Does that make sense?


 
Yep!


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Yep!


 

Phew! At least that's sorted. Woman still gets shouted at.


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## Red Cat (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> It's totally unacceptable. But is it power wielding? Frightening as a torrent of vitriol might be I'd wager it's more a desperate lashing out out as a result of an immense sense of _lack_ of power and impotence.


 

It's power wielding to the extent that the man gets rid of his own sense of powerlessness by pushing it into the woman by shouting abuse at her.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 19, 2013)

and I don't think its got much to do with an inverse sense of powerlessness either. That explanation is way too glib.


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> and I don't think its got much to do with an inverse sense of powerlessness either. That explanation is way too glib.


 

It's certainly the 'nicest' way of explaining it...


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 19, 2013)

It doesn't seem unreasonable to propose that some people trying to aggressively dominate others for no apparent reason and with no apparent gain other than the domination itself, might be doing it to some degree to compensate for a feeling of powerlessness in other areas. (Although not the only explanation by any means - people are aggressive and sadistic for lots of reasons.)

How much of a shit we give is something else entirely of course. My shitgiving quantities tend to range from zero to none.


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## stethoscope (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't think it can be avoided in all this that we still live in a society where gender is unequal. Without wanting to go down a well worn discussion on objectification, etc., women's bodies, dress, and actions are public property in a way that men's just aren't - from Daily Mail to top shelf. That this viewing of women as public property should extend onto the street and that some men should feel entitled enough to enact upon it doesn't seem to me to point to those men's 'sense of powerlessness'. On the contrary, it's being able to benefit from and wield, gender-based privilege.


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## kittyP (Aug 19, 2013)

Clair De Lune said:
			
		

> To me it seems fucking obvious the difference between chatting someone up and engaging in this sort of neanderthal shouting from scaffolding/vehicles or a huddle of other cretins. To chat someone up is to engage them in conversation. To show a little politeness and respect and be aware that if the recipient is not as eager as you, you should back off.



Agreed. Unfortunately it seems clear that there are a lot of men who fail to get this.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 19, 2013)

Rushy said:


> Sure. But as you say, it is an _attempt_ rather than an actual reassertion of power. That person knows they don't have the power to get what they want. Either way, it's shit and unacceptable.


Some of the most vehement assertions of power occur precisely when the asserter fears that they are losing dominance.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 19, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Some of the most vehement assertions of power occur precisely when the asserter fears that they are losing dominance.


 

which explains why Uncle Joe was always on one


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 19, 2013)

steph said:


> I don't think it can be avoided in all this that we still live in a society where gender is unequal. Without wanting to go down a well worn discussion on objectification, etc., women's bodies, dress, and actions are public property in a way that men's just aren't - from Daily Mail to top shelf. That this viewing of women as public property should extend onto the street and that some men should feel entitled enough to enact upon it doesn't seem to me to point to those men's 'sense of powerlessness'. On the contrary, it's being able to benefit from and wield, gender-based privilege.


 
Absofuckinglutely.

But of course, this gendered privilege isn't a simple thing.

There is a lack of power - perceived lack, that is - as women are afforded more control of their lives, are seen to be loud in terms of their own rights, and so on. So while men still retain that privilege, they perceive themselves as lacking it, and that's where the power thing comes in.


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## emanymton (Aug 19, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Absofuckinglutely.
> 
> But of course, this gendered privilege isn't a simple thing.
> 
> There is a lack of power - perceived lack, that is - as women are afforded more control of their lives, are seen to be loud in terms of their own rights, and so on. So while men still retain that privilege, they perceive themselves as lacking it, and that's where the power thing comes in.


Which is pretty much what I tried to say.


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Have we had a woman who's taken issue with it being a power trip yet? Only it seems like a lot of us perceive it to be about that, and a couple of men have disputed that it is.


 
It was to do with reading Vintage Paw post #332



> that this harassment is a problem in the way that it is because it trends in one direction. To some extent the content (or intent) of what men say to women isn't important; women are the targets, the people to be appraised, accosted, pursued, consumed. The handful of examples where it might be a group of women eyeing up a guy shouldn't be used as evidence that 'they can give as good as they get' or that they objectify men too, or whatever. The majority of this behaviour, the trend, the problem, is men -> women. That's the context we have to view this in first and foremost, so as to keep sight of why it can be viewed as a larger social problem *even if it's a benign, friendly remark.*


 
(my highlight)


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## Gramsci (Aug 19, 2013)

Clair De Lune said:


> To me it seems fucking obvious the difference between chatting someone up and engaging in this sort of neanderthal shouting from scaffolding/vehicles or a huddle of other cretins. To chat someone up is to engage them in conversation. To show a little politeness and respect and be aware that if the recipient is not as eager as you, you should back off.


 
Spot on.

I can understand why women get wary of men chatting them up. Unfortunately there are to many men who are neanderthal.

Showing a women respect, backing off if they are clearly not interested etc is not that difficult.

More likely to swap numbers as well. Its worked for me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

emanymton said:


> I think it can be an attempt to regain a sense of power over women that many men don't have in their lives but which they feel they should. Does that make sense?


Standard social and gender dynamics under patriarchy. 
That being said, that doesn't even begin to excuse such behaviour, because as Vintage Paw pointed out, we have free will (even if it is socially and economically circumscribed to the point that some people may *feel* that their lives are predetermined!). We can choose to *not* behave like pack animals.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> Makes sense to me. Woman still gets shouted at.


 
Quite. Men "regain" their power at a cost to women. Same old same old.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> and I don't think its got much to do with an inverse sense of powerlessness either. That explanation is way too glib.


 
It may "inform" how some men act, but I agree with you that it's probably not the prime motivator, consciously *or* subconsciously.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

steph said:


> I don't think it can be avoided in all this that we still live in a society where gender is unequal. Without wanting to go down a well worn discussion on objectification, etc., women's bodies, dress, and actions are public property in a way that men's just aren't - from Daily Mail to top shelf. That this viewing of women as public property should extend onto the street and that some men should feel entitled enough to enact upon it doesn't seem to me to point to those men's 'sense of powerlessness'. On the contrary, it's being able to benefit from and wield, gender-based privilege.


 
Amen.


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## northsouthfood (Aug 20, 2013)

Really glad to see this being mentioned. I don't get just as much harrassment as when I moved to Brixton 8 years ago but waiting for a friend in Electric Avenue for 5 minutes last week I got two 'suck my cock' requests from two different men, one helpful 'you ginger, bitch' (yes, I know. I dye it.) and a query about said ginger hair (and actually, it's natural warm auburn) matching other body hair.

I don't feel unsafe in Brixton as it's so busy and I don't find the harrassment worse than anywhere else in the UK, but I am sick to death of my character and fuckability being commented on so often. I never know what is going to happen when I leve the house and the amount of abuse I get when I wear a dress means I never wear anything other than jeans now. I've had a few pleasant chat up lines that amuse me, but the fixation some men in the area have with their cock is just trying.


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## kelly1988 (Aug 20, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis. Regardless of what I wear (office clothes, jeans, dresses [and most importantly it doesn't matter!]) I can't walk out on my own without people making comments, shouting at me from across the road, making pussy cat noises, occasionally following etc. Many men don't seem to respect me because I am a young woman who has the tenacity to walk on her own.
> 
> ...



Would be very interested in reading this. Just the other day I was walking home up through Brixton square and up Tulse Hill Road and was approached by a man shouting things like 'sexy' and 'i'd like to see you without the dress'. A few minutes later another man approached me, at first I thought he was going to say something about the man shouting behind me but instead he stood in front of me and wouldn't let me pass. Kept saying really weird things like 'I'm gonna eat you up' & 'I'll have a taste of that flour' (whatever the hell that means). Was pretty intimidating because he was twice the height of me and not letting me past, had to actually run around him.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

that'd be 'flower' and its rude as hell. pair of shits


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## artyfarty (Aug 20, 2013)

This is a timely thread.
On sunday evening I was driving back through London with a "friend" who has a habbit of getting lairy when drunk. Usually involves simply falling over and hurting himself. After the day out, I got him into the car, he dozed off and when driving back through Kensington, he woke up and started wolf whistling and shouting out of the car (my car) window at any woman he thought attractive.
I told him to stop it, which he eventually did, and whilst still pissed off with him tried to explain that I was unhappy and he should not do that either when with me or ever.
There was an embarrassed silence then we dropped it.
We called into a pizza place as he was hungry, he then proceeded to say rather too audibly about the woman at the next table " I wonder what she looks like with her clothes off."
I sat there bloody cringing and quietly told him a again to shut up.
I was wondering what I'm going to say to him when he's sobered up, it's more complicated in that he's both a neighbour and a friend, I cant really ignore him if he takes offence (as I'm sure he will).
Some men are simply that fecking ignorant that they think woman either like this sort of behaviour or it has no effect on the recipients.
I will talk to him, were supposed to be going for a drink wednesday but I suspect that it's the end of a friend, perhaps no great loss under the circumstances.
FWIW it's only when he's drunk he'd do this but "In vino veritas"


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## Sirena (Aug 20, 2013)

I've worked in Brixton for 25 years and I have never been harassed.  I have had (black) guys pay me compliments as I walked past but have never experienced leery or threatening nonsense.


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## kittyP (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I've worked in Brixton for 25 years and I have never been harassed. I have had (black) guys pay me compliments as I walked past but have never experienced leery or threatening nonsense.


 

But what you consider to be compliments could very easily feel threatening to others.


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## Sirena (Aug 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> But what you consider to be compliments could very easily feel threatening to others.


 
I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way.  Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe.  Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.


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## Mation (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way. Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe. Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.


Good grief - did you actually just post that?  

Do tell me more about black communities and their ways...


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## Thora (Aug 20, 2013)

I tell you what, I have never been harassed OR complimented by a Somali bloke.


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## Mation (Aug 20, 2013)

Thora said:


> I tell you what, I have never been harassed OR complimented by a Somali bloke.


Do they not use street banter for courtship?


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## Sirena (Aug 20, 2013)

Mation said:


> Good grief - did you actually just post that?
> 
> Do tell me more about black communities and their ways...


 
I did post that.  You are correct.


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## Thora (Aug 20, 2013)

Is it a particular black community you are thinking of Sirena, or does this apply to all black men?


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## Callie (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> *I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way.* Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe. Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.


 
So of the real life examples and experiences given by people on this thread do you think people have been over defensive? People are just misinterpreting things? Its all just complimentary?

 (complementary? positive comments rather than free, Im guessing strangers dont charge each other for comments as they pass in the street )


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## Mation (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I did post that. You are correct.


Wow


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## Mation (Aug 20, 2013)

Callie said:


> So of the real life examples and experiences given by people on this thread do you think people have been over defensive? People are just misinterpreting things? Its all just complimentary?
> 
> (complementary? positive comments rather than free, Im guessing strangers dont charge each other for comments as they pass in the street )




Complementary


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## trabuquera (Aug 20, 2013)

Is it possible the thread's getting tangled a bit?

I think it doesn't necessarily downplay the experience of victims to say that there is - or might be - a range of behaviours which some people might consider sexual harassment and others might consider open-air chat-ups?

Obviously anything including the words bitch / slag / whore / sket doesn't count - that is harassment pure and simple, if not verbal abuse.
Neither does any graphic detailed comment on particular bit(s) of someone's body. that's male entitlement and verges on threatening.
Neither does physically following, grabbing, looming over or penning in another person. - this is common assault if they touch you, right?
Neither does focusing on and catcalling a women in a group. - this is a pack activity about male status, not a way to say "I fancy you".

But I do think there are some actions which some posters on this thread might interpret as sexual harassment, or street harassment with a sexual tinge, which others *might* consider to be 'flirting' or 'trying to pick someone up' on the street. It might often feel clumsy to the recipient, maybe even a bit oppressive - but is it really harassment of the sort we are concerned about? I'm thinking of things like:

"I was just admiring you" (cf up this thread) - to me this is a genuine compliment but I can see how some might feel it's out of place in public.
"Hey sexy!" (when shouted at you by a complete stranger) - I *haaaaaaate* this as it is so no-effort as a pickup attempt. But is it pickup or abuse?
"Well hello miss, you look very pretty today" (I find it creepy but can't qualify it as harrassment as such).

Without either racially stereotyping anyone, claiming Brixton is particularly bad, underrating the experience of victims, or squeezing the last drop of joy out of human coexistence, your answers please. Are the bits in blue harassment or not in your view? And how can/should women respond to them?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way. Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe. Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.


 
Right, so I'd better run along and tell the black British people I know who dislike this behaviour that they shouldn't worry, it's part of their culture! 

Dearie dearie me.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

Mation said:


> Do they not use street banter for courtship?


 
Apparently not. How very remiss of them!


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## stethoscope (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm still comforted that if I'm called an 'f-in tranny' on the street, it's no big deal because some trans people use it as a term of endearment within a section of the trans 'scene'. Sirena said so.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 20, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> Is it possible the thread's getting tangled a bit?
> 
> I think it doesn't necessarily downplay the experience of victims to say that there is - or might be - a range of behaviours which some people might consider sexual harassment and others might consider open-air chat-ups?
> 
> ...


 

All imho:
"Hey sexy" out and out no, it's harassment. 
"Well hello miss, you look very pretty today" as you said, creepy but could be said in a a certain way under certain circumstances that was OK. 
"I was just admiring you" again, could be said in a a certain way under certain circumstances that was OK.
But with the ones that could be OK, as others have said, you have to be very good at reading the situation to know if it is OK or not, and a lot of blokes aren't.


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## Mation (Aug 20, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> "I was just admiring you" (cf up this thread) - to me this is a genuine compliment but I can see how some might feel it's out of place in public.
> "Hey sexy!" (when shouted at you by a complete stranger) - I *haaaaaaate* this as it is so no-effort as a pickup attempt. But is it pickup or abuse?
> "Well hello miss, you look very pretty today" (I find it creepy but can't qualify it as harrassment as such).
> 
> Without either racially stereotyping anyone, claiming Brixton is particularly bad, underrating the experience of victims, or squeezing the last drop of joy out of human coexistence, your answers please. Are the bits in blue harassment or not in your view? And how can/should women respond to them?


It would entirely depend on their physical proximity, where and when it was, their tone of voice, my perception of the likelihood of them being prepared to let me continue on with whatever I'm doing without necessarily responding to them at all and without further comment or interaction from them (their facial expression and body language _might_ tell me that...), depending on how generally or sexually harassed I was on the day, and sometimes on whether or not they are attractive to me (though this is by no means a given, either way).

Lots of men do manage to say that sort of thing to me and me to feel it's complementary and non-problematic. Others don't.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> Is it possible the thread's getting tangled a bit?
> 
> I think it doesn't necessarily downplay the experience of victims to say that there is - or might be - a range of behaviours which some people might consider sexual harassment and others might consider open-air chat-ups?
> 
> ...


 
If such behaviours are "everyday" or common, then even "I was just admiring you" is going to get tedious, annoying and/or feel threatening after a while, because of the persistence of the behaviour (not necessarily from the same person, but from different men too).
The sense of entitlement projected by the speaker will probably get irksome quickly, too.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 20, 2013)

Mation said:


> It would entirely depend on their physical proximity, where and when it was, their tone of voice, my perception of the likelihood of them being prepared to let me continue on with whatever I'm doing without necessarily responding to them at all and without further comment or interaction from them (their facial expression and body language _might_ tell me that...), depending on how generally or sexually harassed I was on the day, sometimes on whether or not they are attractive to me (though this is by no means a given, either way).
> 
> Lots of men do manage to say that sort of thing to me and me to feel it's complementary and non-problematic. Others don't.


 

^ This


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

steph said:


> I'm still comforted that if I'm called an 'f-in tranny' on the street, it's no big deal because some trans people use it as a term of endearment within a section of the trans 'scene', Sirena said so.


 
I hate the word "tranny", but for entirely the wrong reason - to me it means "cheapo 1970s Japanese radio that runs out of batteries when you're listening to the football scores".

More seriously, though, using insulting language *within* an in-group (of whatever sort) has a long and honourably history. When it's used by someone outside of that group to stigmatise, it's unacceptable, whether it's "fucking tranny", dirty Yid cunt" or "black bastard". It *is* a big deal, and anyone daft enough to imply otherwise is either too "right-on" to live, or an idiot extrapolating their own experience into a general law (which is never a sensible or rational thing to do!).


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> All imho:
> "Hey sexy" out and out no, it's harassment.
> "Well hello miss, you look very pretty today" as you said, creepy but could be said in a a certain way under certain circumstances that was OK.
> "I was just admiring you" again, could be said in a a certain way under certain circumstances that was OK.
> But with the ones that could be OK, as others have said, you have to be very good at reading the situation to know if it is OK or not, and a lot of blokes aren't.


 
I think that what makes it harrassment is the seeming near-ubiquity of the behaviour. You could probably stomach it if it were once in a blue moon, even though you'd probably still feel uncomfortable, but when it might be once or twice a month or more, of different blokes feeling entitled to objectify you for their own amusement/stimulation/power-games, *any* compliment, fervently and innocently meant or not, will come across as threatening, even when offered with a cheery smile.


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## kittyP (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think that what either makes it harrassment is the seeming near-ubiquity of the behaviour. You could probably stomach it if it were once in a blue moon, even though you'd probably still feel uncomfortable, but when it might be once or twice a month, different blokes feeling entitled to objectify you for their own amusement/stimulation/power-games, *any* compliment, fervently and innocently meant or not, will come across as threatening, even coffered with a cheery smile.


 

There is a certain stretch of road near where I go to the shops most days to get smokes and stuff, that I get at least one comment every time I walk down it. 
I don't get offended or huffy and usually just smile and non my head. But I would really rather they didn't do it. 
I am purposely having to not let myself take it to heart rather than it actually being OK iyswim? 
They know my husband to say hello to as well but they never do it when he is there. In fact if he is there, they don't acknowledge my existence at all


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## Callie (Aug 20, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> Is it possible the thread's getting tangled a bit?
> 
> Without either racially stereotyping anyone, claiming Brixton is particularly bad, underrating the experience of victims, or squeezing the last drop of joy out of human coexistence, your answers please. Are the bits in blue harassment or not in your view? And how can/should women respond to them?


 are you asking anyone in particular or everyone?


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## trabuquera (Aug 20, 2013)

everyone and anyone. no exclusions. "even" men are welcome to contribute. Believe it or not I am actually trying to foster the sharing of different opinions, rather than whipping up a bunfight or dictating How This Issue OUGHT To Be Seen. (not saying anyone else is doing either of those things, either.)


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## stethoscope (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I hate the word "tranny", but for entirely the wrong reason - to me it means "cheapo 1970s Japanese radio that runs out of batteries when you're listening to the football scores".
> 
> More seriously, though, using insulting language *within* an in-group (of whatever sort) has a long and honourably history. When it's used by someone outside of that group to stigmatise, it's unacceptable, whether it's "fucking tranny", dirty Yid cunt" or "black bastard". It *is* a big deal, and anyone daft enough to imply otherwise is either too "right-on" to live, or an idiot extrapolating their own experience into a general law (which is never a sensible or rational thing to do!).


 
No no no VP, see Sirena knows best.


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## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

wow, how have I not clocked this moron before


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> There is a certain stretch of road near where I go to the shops most days to get smokes and stuff, that I get at least one comment every time I walk down it.
> I don't get offended or huffy and usually just smile and non my head. But I would really rather they didn't do it.
> I am purposely having to not let myself take it to heart rather than it actually being OK iyswim?


 
Yep, and you shouldn't have to be doing so.



> They know my husband to say hello to as well but they never do it when he is there. In fact if he is there, they don't acknowledge my existence at all


 
They obviously know that what they're doing is transgressive, or they'd be happy to comment whether badgers were there or not. Cowards as well as wankers.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

steph said:


> No no no VP, see Sirena knows best.


 
Just when you think there couldn't be any more , more  !!!!


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way. Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe. Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> You are correct.


 
unlike yourself.


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## Balbi (Aug 20, 2013)

This thread's like one of those blue lights you use to kill mozzies


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## emanymton (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Standard social and gender dynamics under patriarchy.
> That being said, that doesn't even begin to excuse such behaviour, because as Vintage Paw pointed out, we have free will (even if it is socially and economically circumscribed to the point that some people may *feel* that their lives are predetermined!). We can choose to *not* behave like pack animals.


Of course, I did not mean to imply otherwise.


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## Boudicca (Aug 20, 2013)

trabuquera said:


> Are the bits in blue harassment or not in your view? And how can/should women respond to them?


 
Sometimes it's irksome and sometimes it's fun.  There has been some talk up thread about power - I would say (perhaps controversially!) that being the object of someone's lust can make me feel powerful. And I can have some fun slapping them down verbally. This is from the perspective of an older, worldly-wise woman though - I am not easily harassed!  I get much more respectful comments these days, often prefaced with a 'ma'am' or 'madam'.

And maybe I'm lucky - I've been in Brixton for 20 years, had my fair share of unsolicited comments but never anything nasty and I have never felt threatened. I like it here because strangers talk to each other more, and I'm prepared to take the occasional downside of that.


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## Sirena (Aug 20, 2013)

Thora said:


> Is it a particular black community you are thinking of Sirena, or does this apply to all black men?


 
I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community.  In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens.  It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat.  The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.


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## Manter (Aug 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> There is a certain stretch of road near where I go to the shops most days to get smokes and stuff, that I get at least one comment every time I walk down it.
> I don't get offended or huffy and usually just smile and non my head. But I would really rather they didn't do it.
> I am purposely having to not let myself take it to heart rather than it actually being OK iyswim?
> They know my husband to say hello to as well but they never do it when he is there. In fact if he is there, they don't acknowledge my existence at all


Sounds very much like the parade of shops on Brixton road opposite Jamm. Exactly the same thing used to happen to me there...


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## fortyplus (Aug 20, 2013)

Has been a most interesting thread. 
Going back to the power-trip theme, I think this is only part of the explanation (never justification) for the unacceptable follow-ons to a compliment not "correctly" taken. Every straight male on here will remember how terrifying it was to go up and talk to a girl, particularly when all your mates were watching.  Fear of public rejection is crippling. I think a lot of unacceptable harassment is caused by peer-fear, as young men assert their masculinity mainly in front of other young men and by their peers' standards. So when a flirtatious/complimentary approach doesn't get an immediate result - it's clear she's not interested - the aggressive/insulting reaction is for the benefit of his peers ('I am not such a loser...').   Before the approach, adrenaline pumps - it would be interesting to measure heart-rate, and I'd be prepared to bet that it goes up well before the exchange starts - and it, together with testosterone, triggers the twattish reaction. 

So research into sexual street harassment can't give a full picture without finding out more about the perpetrators, what they think they were doing, what values drive their behaviour, what insecurities underlie it, if and why they think it's somehow cool or funny.  

It's a mystery to me why we humans as adolescents (a phase which seems to last for several decades) divide into single-sex groups and exchange ignorance about the opposite sex with our peers.  I was speaking to a young man the other day who said that he and his mates used to travel in groups on the late night tubes and buses in the hope of meeting and chatting up girls. No big surprise their success rate was precisely zero.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community. In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens. It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat. The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.


 
That's horrifically generalising and generalised. In both cases such cultures *aren't* majority culture, so taking them as a generalisable representation of Jamaican or British culture is facile and narrow, even spurious.
Also, it's only in the last half century, since post-war reconstruction, that much working class culture in the UK has moved away from "cross-street chit-chat", and then only through a) imposition of the decanting of communities and b) the later deliberate policies aimed at eroding and/or breaking the solidarities of the working classes, both physically and ideologically.
Even Jamaican "yard" culture can't be claimed as generalisable, because it pertains to people in particular settings, not people in general, and not all Jamaican immigrants were/are town or city dwellers, some were/are "country".


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## Sirena (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's horrifically generalising and generalised. In both cases such cultures *aren't* majority culture, so taking them as a generalisable representation of Jamaican or British culture is facile and narrow, even spurious.
> Also, it's only in the last half century, since post-war reconstruction, that much working class culture in the UK has moved away from "cross-street chit-chat", and then only through a) imposition of the decanting of communities and b) the later deliberate policies aimed at eroding and/or breaking the solidarities of the working classes, both physically and ideologically.
> Even Jamaican "yard" culture can't be claimed as generalisable, because it pertains to people in particular settings, not people in general, and not all Jamaican immigrants were/are town or city dwellers, some were/are "country".


I know it is a generalisation.


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## kittyP (Aug 20, 2013)

fortyplus said:


> Has been a most interesting thread.
> Going back to the power-trip theme, I think this is only part of the explanation (never justification) for the unacceptable follow-ons to a compliment not "correctly" taken. Every straight male on here will remember how terrifying it was to go up and talk to a girl, particularly when all your mates were watching. Fear of public rejection is crippling. I think a lot of unacceptable harassment is caused by peer-fear, as young men assert their masculinity mainly in front of other young men and by their peers' standards. So when a flirtatious/complimentary approach doesn't get an immediate result - it's clear she's not interested - the aggressive/insulting reaction is for the benefit of his peers ('I am not such a loser...'). Before the approach, adrenaline pumps - it would be interesting to measure heart-rate, and I'd be prepared to bet that it goes up well before the exchange starts - and it, together with testosterone, triggers the twattish reaction.
> 
> So research into sexual street harassment can't give a full picture without finding out more about the perpetrators, what they think they were doing, what values drive their behaviour, what insecurities underlie it, if and why they think it's somehow cool or funny.
> ...


 

Good post although I (and a lot of my friends) never did the divide in to single sex groups as adolescents.
I was in a very tight group of 3 girls and 3 boys (none of us were in relationships with each other) from about 14 - 27


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I know it is a generalisation.


 
So why not make it clear that that is the case?
All I ask for is clarity!


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena isn't the first person on this thread to use the culture argument... Kizmet was spouting shite about a clash of cultures a few pages back. 

There's so much wrong with this as others like mation and violent panda have rightly pointed out


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## Smyz (Aug 20, 2013)

If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing whilst the proportion of black residents has been decreasing.

If we're going to point the finger at cultural factors then it looks like the culprit is pub and club culture and the increase in late night venues which came with gentrification..


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## DotCommunist (Aug 20, 2013)

thats a relief, for a minute there I was convinced that aggresive sexual abuse was just how brothers did there pick ups.


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## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community. In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens. It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat. The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.


 
I am white. I live in street culture as I am out all day delivering. So I am on my own on the streets most of the time.

I meet all sorts. Homeless, builders, receptionists, the rich, the people who work in the coffee bar I use.

This evening a couple of builders chatted to me as I was waiting to deliver a package for example. Talked about how people could afford to buy a place in Kensington.

I am used to the streets and know most people I chat to I will never see again.

I do occasionally compliment a woman on her appearance as I am out and about. Its how you do it that counts. Its not that I am trying to get there number. Never had a bad response.

Some of the receptionists I get on with I will occasionally compliment them as well.

For me its all part of just getting on with people.

And yes I have chatted up women in public places. Made a few female friends out of it. I am basically not pushy.

As for Jamaican society. As I have said before cultures are not monolithic. Another aspect of Jamaican society is the church going side to it for example.

What you have in London is a hybrid society. I have Black British friend who is African/ South American background. People make there own culture basing it on aspects of there own heritage and the influences of being in a large city. London is fairly unique in having so many people with backgrounds from all over the world. Frictions can happen within communities between second generation and first generation as well. Life is not simple.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 20, 2013)

Smyz said:


> If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing whilst the proportion of black residents has been decreasing.
> 
> If we're going to point the finger at cultural factors then it looks like the culprit is pub and club culture and the increase in late night venues which came with gentrification..



Alcohol, you mean? Drunks. Drunk male gentry shouting at drunk female gentry?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2013)

Smyz said:


> If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing


 
Has it?

Might be worth @S A Villarino looking into the figures.

Figures for Lambeth here.

For Lambeth they are roughly the same as last year.

Here is Coldharbour Ward.

Coldharbour Ward covers Brixton.

So Brixton is high compared to Met average for whole of London and higher than Lambeth average.


----------



## Winot (Aug 20, 2013)

Brixton has been a place people come to party for a long time. I'm guessing alcohol plays a pretty big part in this sort of abuse. 

On a more general note, this thread (and #everydaysexism) is vital for reminding men who respect women just what shit women have to put up with on a day to day basis. It's hard to comprehend because we very rarely see it, but comprehend it we must.


----------



## Ms T (Aug 20, 2013)

I got hissed at today.  For some reason I found that really annoying.


----------



## Smyz (Aug 20, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Has it?
> 
> Might be worth @S A Villarino looking into the figures.
> 
> ...


It was mentioned somewhere in the articles about the Lambeth campaigns and why they happened.


----------



## Manter (Aug 20, 2013)

Ms T said:


> I got hissed at today.  For some reason I found that really annoying.


I hate the hissing thing


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way. Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe. Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.


 
What the fuck is this, David Attenborough?

A lot of people commenting on the thread are black btw, I am pretty sure you are talking absolute bollocks


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I hate the word "tranny", but for entirely the wrong reason - to me it means "cheapo 1970s Japanese radio that runs out of batteries when you're listening to the football scores".
> 
> More seriously, though, using insulting language *within* an in-group (of whatever sort) has a long and honourably history. When it's used by someone outside of that group to stigmatise, it's unacceptable, whether it's "fucking tranny", dirty Yid cunt" or "black bastard". It *is* a big deal, and anyone daft enough to imply otherwise is either too "right-on" to live, or an idiot extrapolating their own experience into a general law (which is never a sensible or rational thing to do!).


 
if someone calls a transgendered person a fucking tranny in the street that's fighting words I would have thought. Who on earth thinks otherwise?


----------



## Effrasurfer (Aug 21, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I am thinking of particularly the Jamaican community. In that community - taking its cue from Jamaica and its street-culture - street banter is how a lot of normal courtship happens. It's an outdoor society for all social purposes, unlike ours which is a pub society, so there is a lot of cross-street chit-chat. The model continues over here, though it may not be as acceptable to non-Jamaicans.


 
That's certainly how my partner, who was brought up in Trinidad, saw it when I was reading him bits of this thread a couple of nights back. His response was to make a joke about how, back home, if two women were walking together and got cat-called, they would argue over which of them it was aimed at. (He's very annoying like that.)

I'll never forget the time 20 years ago we walked into a record shop in Pleasantville and the staff kindly put this on for my benefit. . I was mortified at the time but now I can see the funny side.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Aug 21, 2013)

Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Aug 21, 2013)

Because that's what I feel both kizmet and sirena were suggesting. Cultural expression trumps sexism, so women should shut the fuck up.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 21, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures


 
Yep - I noticed this too. Can we stop making excuses for bad behaviour!

I know that being chatted up/harassed  in my mid-teens has a big impact on me. I always covered up , didn't want to look attractive or female so I then wouldn't have to deal with people aggressively asking for my phone number. It wasn't only that these men were bothering my personal space but they were also risking my freedom to come and go as I like as if my parents had got wind of me being bothered by the local blokes then they would have been even more protective than they were. I would have been kept indoors til I hit 40!

For me, the streets are not the place for chatting up people. It's the way I go from A to B. If I'm in a pub or bar or at a social event, then yes - this might be a space where I find it appropriate.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 21, 2013)

And thinking about the phrase chatting up - for me, it's so often that the motives for conversation are not friendship and dating - it's all about sex. One of my heard too often comments, is "I just want to be your friend. You have a lovely body".  (This was from a  man following me home! couldn't shake him off - he did it again the following week!)

It would be easier if they just came up and said I'd like to have sex with you - straight to the point!


----------



## Ms T (Aug 21, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures


Exactly. Would people have the same argument if we were talking about homophobia?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 21, 2013)

Ms T said:


> Exactly. Would people have the same argument if we were talking about homophobia?


 
It wouldn't be the first time if they did. Try searching for Sizzla or Beenie Man on the music forum, there's some fairly lengthy discussions from a few years ago.


----------



## girasol (Aug 21, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Yep - I noticed this too. Can we stop making excuses for bad behaviour!
> 
> I know that being chatted up/harassed in my mid-teens has a big impact on me. I always covered up , didn't want to look attractive or female so I then wouldn't have to deal with people aggressively asking for my phone number. It wasn't only that these men were bothering my personal space but they were also risking my freedom to come and go as I like as if my parents had got wind of me being bothered by the local blokes then they would have been even more protective than they were. I would have been kept indoors til I hit 40!
> 
> For me, the streets are not the place for chatting up people. It's the way I go from A to B. If I'm in a pub or bar or at a social event, then yes - this might be a space where I find it appropriate.


 

This has hit a chord. The 'incident' when I was an 11 year old (I mentioned earlier on the thread) had a similar impact on me, i.e. to try and be invisible. Until my mid 30s I dressed very plainly indeed, always walked very fast too, if on my own. I started to experiment more with clothes once I got past that age, safe in the knowledge that older women don't get as much shit, plus I felt more confident and able to give anyone a tongue lashing should it be required.

(there was also an incident with a member of the family when I was 18, which just goes to show that even dressing a certain way is no deterrent)


----------



## fortyplus (Aug 21, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures


 
Yup. Cultural relativism can be used to explain, but not to excuse unacceptable behaviour. It can help explain why certain groups behave in a certain way, but it's a big step from there to suggest that such behaviour is acceptable. 
Sexism has been massively (and on the whole, successfully) challenged within mainstream/white/British culture over the last half-century.  It's much less acceptable than it was in the 60s/70s.
We live in a dynamic, evolving culture in Brixton and  we as Brixtonians of whatever heritage can embrace the positive (say, jerk chicken and reggae) and reject the negative  (homophobia and street sexism) influences in the mix. It's important that we do, because it will help determine the direction our public interactions develop and what this ever-changing society turns into.    
It comes down to learning, and being prepared to teach, what makes good manners in 21st century urban life.  Sounds crusty, but manners do matter.


----------



## toggle (Aug 21, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures


 
It's also assuming that there aren't any complaints from black women about sexist behavior from black men. The only problem with this is that there not only are complaints that can be found quite easily, but there are also details of how many women who complain are silenced. Some black women who discuss sexism within the community not only face the whole range of silencing tricks employed against white women, but they also can be accused of siding against their own people, giving ammunition to racists, and not being good girls and putting all their needs on the back burner until after the problems of racism are solved.

Anyone using the argument that street harassment is culture is simply proving that they are NOT FUCKING LISTENING to women.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

Smyz said:


> If I've read information on this and other threads correctly the number of sexual assaults in Brixton has been increasing whilst the proportion of black residents has been decreasing.
> 
> If we're going to point the finger at cultural factors then it looks like the culprit is pub and club culture and the increase in late night venues which came with gentrification..


 
Or we could continue the cultural factor "argument" and blame not just pub and club culture, but Eastern European and Portugeuse street cultures.

But to do so would be unbelievably crass and inaccurate.  What's to blame is patriarchy and the attitude toward women that it has supported for the last couple of thousand years.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures


 
The last time I heard that argument made with any force was in the '80s w/r/t the treatment of women in the various "Asian" communities, and it was as shoddy then as it is now - oppression is oppression, regardless of any cultural factors that supposedly explain such oppression.  Obviously it springs up every now and then to "explain" everything from "honour" killings to arse-pinching, but no-one should kid themselves that such explanations are anything more than an excuse for socially-unacceptable behaviour.  As you say, that's apologia.


----------



## Manter (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The last time I heard that argument made with any force was in the '80s w/r/t the treatment of women in the various "Asian" communities, and it was as shoddy then as it is now - oppression is oppression, regardless of any cultural factors that supposedly explain such oppression.  Obviously it springs up every now and then to "explain" everything from "honour" killings to arse-pinching, but no-one should kid themselves that such explanations are anything more than an excuse for socially-unacceptable behaviour.  As you say, that's apologia.


I think the only thing that is useful about the 'cultural' argument is that it gives you a roadmap to address issues: if you have a domestic violence, harassment, FGM, whatever issue in different communities, there may be different cultural/social/psychological/religious reasons behind what is presenting as a similar issue. So addressing the issue will require different approaches (Imans, community leaders, peer to peer support, legal action, etc etc)


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 21, 2013)

I'm curious why you have referred specifically to Imams (not imans) rather than the more generic religious leaders?


----------



## Rushy (Aug 21, 2013)

toggle said:


> It's also assuming that there aren't any complaints from black women about sexist behavior from black men. The only problem with this is that there not only are complaints that can be found quite easily, but there are also details of how many women who complain are silenced. Some black women who discuss sexism within the community not only face the whole range of silencing tricks employed against white women, but they also can be accused of siding against their own people, giving ammunition to racists, and not being good girls and putting all their needs on the back burner until after the problems of racism are solved.
> 
> Anyone using the argument that street harassment is culture is simply proving that they are NOT FUCKING LISTENING to women.


 

There does not appear to be much disagreement about whether harassment is wrong - even within cultures. The disagreement appears to be around the peripheries of what exactly constitutes harassment.

Sirena did not say she does not mind being harassed, nor that harassment is ok even within a particular culture. She said:


Sirena said:


> I've worked in Brixton for 25 years and *I have never been harassed.* I have had (black) guys pay me compliments as I walked past but have never experienced leery or threatening nonsense.


 
Has anyone asked her what she means by being paid a compliment? Nothing which _she considers_ leery or threatening. Many might feel that she is wrong and is in fact being harassed but attacking and vilifying her for not _feeling_ harassed only serves to drive people out of the wider discussion (not just on U75).


----------



## toggle (Aug 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> There does not appear to be much disagreement about whether harassment is wrong - even within cultures. The disagreement appears to be around the peripheries of what exactly constitutes harassment.
> 
> Sirena did not say she does not mind being harassed, nor that harassment is ok even within a particular culture. She said:
> 
> ...


 
I've already discussed that particular issue in an earlier post I made. there were other discussions on the issue. what she is and isn't ok with is not the discussion. it's her expectation that other women should get over themselves if they happen not to appreciate being treated as public property.

the issue is that someone commenting to women usually does not know whether she will consider that a complement or a potential threat. they need to bear that in mind before opening their mouth, and they need to close their mouth and back away if the woman isn't appreciating their unrequested commentary rather than reacting with threat and abuse, which far too many will do. or grow a greater level of awareness that a comment to the woman who is flirting is going to be welcome, and loose the entitlement to get a response, a positive response from every woman they decide owes it to them. and that's before we get onto the behavior of men who know which women find this behavior threatening and target them.

and society needs to stop telling women who find being treated as public property that they are being oversensitive, whatever skin colour or culture the harasser and victim are from. making that entitled behavior into a race issue is bullshit, it is the same behavior with the same series of complaints whatever whoever is doing it, it's just that black women tend to get additional silencing from their community, from the authorities who are less likely to believe black victims, from some mainstream feminism (i've seen many complaints of being made to feel they have to take sides with a white middle class dominated feminism against working class black men) and from society as a whole. she made some nice claims about what the black community did and didn't think, completely ignoring those black women.



if she wants consideration of her perspective, then being considerate and accepting the perspective of those who she is currently assisting to silence might be beneficial.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 21, 2013)

Rushy Sirena also said that people were being oversensitive, trivialising others experiences. She also made sweeping generalisations about 'the black community' sounding a lot like an apologist for harassment.  Understandably that got a lot of ppls backs up.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 21, 2013)

boohoo said:


> And thinking about the phrase chatting up - for me, it's so often that the motives for conversation are not friendship and dating - it's all about sex. One of my heard too often comments, is "I just want to be your friend. You have a lovely body".  (This was from a man following me home! couldn't shake him off - he did it again the following week!)
> 
> It would be easier if they just came up and said I'd like to have sex with you - straight to the point!


 
Indeed. 
I like chatting to people in the street/my neighborhood and it upsets me when I can't, because men see me as a chatty sort and turn that in to thinking they can get in my knickers, or at least throw some lewd comments my way


----------



## Manter (Aug 21, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I'm curious why you have referred specifically to Imams (not imans) rather than the more generic religious leaders?


Because I happen to volunteer with a woman who is working on an FGM care project, which is more prevalent in Islamic communities so it was front of mind*. Not an exhaustive list. 

*and I know it isn't advocated in Islam, it's a cultural issue, but within the communities we were discussing they are told it is a religious obligation, so properly educated imams (if you like) can be critical in educating and breaking down misconceptions- as opposed to the mudarrisa, for example (though some are helpful)


----------



## Manter (Aug 21, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I'm curious why you have referred specifically to Imams (not imans) rather than the more generic religious leaders?


And we can have the transliteration argument till the cows come home- let's not go there....


----------



## S A Villarino (Aug 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Has it?
> 
> Might be worth S A Villarino looking into the figures.
> 
> ...


 

Thanks for this. I looked at these stats before but not sure if it would reflect sexual street harassment as street harassment rarely gets reported. But it does look like certain wards in Brixton have a higher problem with sexual offences relative to the Lambeth & Met average. Might be a correlation but I don't think I can draw causal links.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

Manter said:


> I think the only thing that is useful about the 'cultural' argument is that it gives you a roadmap to address issues: if you have a domestic violence, harassment, FGM, whatever issue in different communities, there may be different cultural/social/psychological/religious reasons behind what is presenting as a similar issue. So addressing the issue will require different approaches (Imans, community leaders, peer to peer support, legal action, etc etc)


 
Well quite, culture (in the broad sense of "the social and/or religious practices of a group) is an indicator of position that can allow "outsiders" to interpollate with some facets of a particular cultural identity, but should never be used to excuse practices that transgress law and/or offend against normative behaviour.


----------



## Manter (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well quite, culture (in the broad sense of "the social and/or religious practices of a group) is an indicator of position that can allow "outsiders" to interpollate with some facets of a particular cultural identity, but should never be used to excuse practices that transgress law and/or offend against normative behaviour.


There is then a question about normative behaviour and who defines it, but possibly a debate for another day


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 21, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Thanks for this. I looked at these stats before but not sure if it would reflect sexual street harassment as street harassment rarely gets reported. But it does look like certain wards in Brixton have a higher problem with sexual offences relative to the Lambeth & Met average. Might be a correlation but I don't think I can draw causal links.


 
I agree. Glad you pointed this out. The Met website does not have any figures for harassment of any kind.

Either its not reported or its not taken as a serious issue by the Met. There is new recent offence for stalking. So looks like the Police will take interest if its repeated harassment/stalking by a man of a women.

Im assuming the Met figures are reported crimes not convictions. As that seems to be the data the Met use.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I agree. Glad you pointed this out. The MET website does not have any figures for harassment of any kind.
> 
> Either its not reported or its not taken as a serious issue by the MET. There is new recent offence for stalking. So looks like the Police will take interest if its repeated harassment/stalking by a man of a women.
> 
> Im assuming the MET figures are reported crimes not convictions. As that seems to be the data the MET use.


MET or Met?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> MET or Met?


 
Met. Just edited.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 21, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Because that's what I feel both kizmet and sirena were suggesting. Cultural expression trumps sexism, so women should shut the fuck up.



Is anyone really stupid enough to believe that a father of two daughters with a number of close female friends would ever tell any of them to "shut the fuck up" about sexual harassment?

What world do you live in? Is it entirely online with a cast of one dimensional characters with no female loved ones?

Anyway there is nothing to be gained in continuing this argument with you... I hope it can end here.


Much earlier in the thread I wrote this:



Kizmet said:


> I haven't talked about sexual harassment at all... not to apologize for it or to deny it.
> 
> What I talked about was Brixton and some of the environmental factors I have noticed there in common with other areas that I have seen with high instances of harassment, street violence and crime.
> 
> ...





Kizmet said:


> It depends in how you approach it.
> 
> By making her understand that there are many factors involved in these incidents and none of them are actually about the victim this way hopefully she can understand not to blame herself.



With regard to street cultures please note this article which is about the massive rise in related attacks in the "street festival" environment.

Now this shows it isn't related to just one culture... Caribbean/ Jamaican/ Indian/Arabic/western...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/05/egypt-women-rape-sexual-assault-tahrir-square

but is more to do with some kind of dynamic related to large amounts of people on the streets.

I suggested earlier that it may be linked with a competitiveness between different cultures/groups within a particular area.....

Again please note that I am not talking about a clash between victim and aggressor but competition between different groups of aggressors.

My daughter asked me a difficult question which I posted earlier and I notice not one person has attempted to answer it... I don't blame you.. I don't have that choice, however.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 21, 2013)

Manter said:


> Because I happen to volunteer with a woman who is working on an FGM care project, which is more prevalent in Islamic communities so it was front of mind*. Not an exhaustive list.
> 
> *and I know it isn't advocated in Islam, it's a cultural issue, but within the communities we were discussing they are told it is a religious obligation, so properly educated imams (if you like) can be critical in educating and breaking down misconceptions- as opposed to the mudarrisa, for example (though some are helpful)



Fair enough. Although it was a genuine question, your ref to imams and fgm seemed odd to me.  I'm not firky, I'm not going to accuse you of being a wacist


----------



## Rushy (Aug 21, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Rushy Sirena also said that people were being oversensitive, trivialising others experiences. She also made sweeping generalisations about 'the black community' sounding a lot like an apologist for harassment. Understandably that got a lot of ppls backs up.


 
She said that people would have to be very over sensitive to interpret the comments which _she received_ as being harassment. Interestingly nobody asked her anything about those comments and her experiences. Is that because no unsolicited comments whatsoever could be acceptable and the details of her experiences are therefore irrelevant?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 21, 2013)

Sirena said:


> I've worked in Brixton for 25 years and I have never been harassed. I have had (black) guys pay me compliments as I walked past but have never experienced leery or threatening nonsense.


 
Hi Sirena.

Given that one aspect of this thread is what constitutes street harassment can you define what you would regard as the difference between harassment and a compliment?

I do think that you feeling that you have not been harassed in Brixton is just as valid as those women who feel they have suffered harassment. It should be taken into account in any article about Brixton

(set aside the cultural issues for the moment).

Rushy

toggle

S A Villarino


----------



## kittyP (Aug 21, 2013)

Rushy said:
			
		

> She said that people would have to be very over sensitive to interpret the comments which she received as being harassment. Interestingly nobody asked her anything about those comments and her experiences. Is that because no unsolicited comments whatsoever could be acceptable and the details of her experiences are therefore irrelevant?



I commented that those "compliments" could be experienced differently by others but I don't think she replied


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Is anyone really stupid enough to believe that a father of two daughters with a number of close female friends would ever tell any of them to "shut the fuck up" about sexual harassment?


there is a great deal of anecdotal evidence on the net of fathers having told their children to keep quiet about sexual abuse. if some fathers would do this why wouldn't they do what you claim they wouldn't?


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> She said that people would have to be very over sensitive to interpret the comments which _she received_ as being harassment. Interestingly nobody asked her anything about those comments and her experiences. Is that because no unsolicited comments whatsoever could be acceptable and the details of her experiences are therefore irrelevant?



This is a quote from sirena put into context with her comments about black communities. This is clealy dismissive of others experiences and is in dodgy apologist/sweeping generalisation territory.



Sirena said:


> I think they would have to be very over-defensive to interpret them that way.  Brixton is known for its black communities and its street vibe.  Within black communities, a lot of courtship takes the form of street banter.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I commented that those "compliments" could be experienced differently by others but I don't think she replied



Kits she replied as quoted above. Saying that you'd have to be very over sensitive. Ugh.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 21, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:
			
		

> Kits she replied as quoted above. Saying that you'd have to be very over sensitive. Ugh.



Thanks. I couldn't be arsed to read back again.


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> there is a great deal of anecdotal evidence on the net of fathers having told their children to keep quiet about sexual abuse. if some fathers would do this why wouldn't they do what you claim they wouldn't?



This seem to be a convoluted way of saying that there are exceptions to my generalization.

Which, of course, there are.

I think its unlikely that those kinds of people would then be discussing methods of approaching the subject with their kids... so I don't see any real relevance to the point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> This seem to be a convoluted way of saying that there are exceptions to my generalization.
> 
> Which, of course, there are.
> 
> I think its unlikely that those kinds of people would then be discussing methods of approaching the subject with their kids... so I don't see any real relevance.


your generalization related to other people's intelligence ("is there anyone really stupid enough to believe...?") to which the answer is, the only stupid person here is you, as you seem to think that your position as a (claimed) father of two daughters means you should be above criticism.


----------



## Biskits (Aug 21, 2013)

This isn't anything to do with culture or background. It's just a display of stupidity.

You'd think that these morons would learn that the use of a whistle, a shout, or "oi" isn't the most successful pick up line option out there and move on to a new technique. Poetry or flowers perhaps. They would need to learn to read first though. Too many damn idiots out there. Training dumb animals can take time.

This should be added to the "How not to be an idiot" guide book along with "don't play your awful music through phone speakers on the bus" and "don't eat yellow snow". It's all productive advice....Pull more women.....Music doesn't sound like a farting yogurt pot.....Eating piss isn't nice.

Then file all of that under the new modern bibles one testament - "Don't be a c*nt"

Peace
x


----------



## Kizmet (Aug 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> your generalization related to other people's intelligence ("is there anyone really stupid enough to believe...?") to which the answer is, the only stupid person here is you, as you seem to think that your position as a (claimed) father of two daughters means you should be above criticism.



Given that I asked for opinions on how to discuss the subject with my daughters, yes, I do believe you would have to be stupid to assume that I would ask them to "shut the fuck up" and accept it.

Having cleared that up would you like to tackle the question that my "alleged" (  ) eldest daughter asked?


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 21, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Given that I asked for opinions on how to discuss the subject with my daughters, yes, I do believe you would have to be stupid to assume that I would ask them to "shut the fuck up" and accept it.
> 
> Having cleared that up would you like to tackle the question that my "alleged" (  ) eldest daughter asked?


i don't think you'd ask them to shut the fuck up but it wouldn't be too surprising if you told them to.


----------



## girasol (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> The last time I heard that argument made with any force was in the '80s w/r/t the treatment of women in the various "Asian" communities, and it was as shoddy then as it is now - oppression is oppression, regardless of any cultural factors that supposedly explain such oppression. Obviously it springs up every now and then to "explain" everything from "honour" killings to *arse-pinching*, but no-one should kid themselves that such explanations are anything more than an excuse for socially-unacceptable behaviour. As you say, that's apologia.


 
This reminded me of such incident when my mum and I were travelling around Mexico (I was 9 years old I think). We were walking around some town, when all of a sudden I see my mum turning around and slapping a man's face. I was completely puzzled. She had a massive go at this man, he had pinched her bottom!  but also when I think back at it this now I can't help but smile  Go mum!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Is anyone really stupid enough to believe that a father of two daughters with a number of close female friends would ever tell any of them to "shut the fuck up" about sexual harassment?


 
Are you really stupid enough to think that some fathers of two daughters, who have a number of close female friends, *wouldn't* ever tell any of them to shut up about sexual harrassment?

Extrapolating from the personal to the general is a mug's game, as is expecting people to attribute positive characteristics to a poster who at the very least has expressed himself poorly enough that his posts warranted scrutiny.


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## Kizmet (Aug 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Given that one aspect of this thread is what constitutes street harassment can you define what you would regard as the difference between harassment and a compliment?
> 
> I do think that you feeling that you have not been harassed in Brixton is just as valid as those women who feel they have suffered harassment. It should be taken into account in any article about Brixton
> 
> (set aside the cultural issues for the moment).



The dividing line between compliment and harassment varies hugely from individual to individual and even tell minute to minute in an individual. Because of that I think you have to rule out the "intentions" behind it and focus on what "it" actually is.

When you do this it becomes clear that a common factor is a lack of respect for women.

This ties directly into what some people are saying about patriarchy being the cause.

But it does also directly bring cultures and influences into the discussion because to deal with a lack of respect you have to know from where it comes.

Also respect or lack of it is much easier to detect than intentions... identifying respect and what is respectful behaviour is a significant feature in my discussions with my eldest.

This is not to say that lack of respect is the only cause but I do believe it to be common.


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## Kizmet (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> expecting people to attribute positive characteristics to a poster who at the very least has expressed himself poorly enough that his posts warranted scrutiny.



I don't expect it, anymore.

I just think more highly of those who are capable of it and pay more attention to their opinions.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I don't expect it, anymore.
> 
> I just think more highly of those who are capable of it and pay more attention to their opinions.


 
So you prefer posters who'll give you a free pass if you express yourself poorly and/or chat shite?


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## Callie (Aug 21, 2013)

girasol said:


> This reminded me of such incident when my mum and I were travelling around Mexico (I was 9 years old I think). We were walking around some town, when all of a sudden I see my mum turning around and slapping a man's face. I was completely puzzled. She had a massive go at this man, he had pinched her bottom!  but also when I think back at it this now I can't help but smile  Go mum!


I would LOVE to have the guts to do that, arse pinching is something that truely enrages me but sadly I dont have the power or ability to lump the person doing it. Id be too scared of it backfiring so to speak.

Thsi thread has reminded me of one of the reasons I listen to music virtually all the time when out and about - you block out the sound of others


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## kittyP (Aug 21, 2013)

Callie said:


> I would LOVE to have the guts to do that, arse pinching is something that truely enrages me but sadly I dont have the power or ability to lump the person doing it. Id be too scared of it backfiring so to speak.
> 
> Thsi thread has reminded me of one of the reasons I listen to music virtually all the time when out and about - you block out the sound of others


 

I read something somewhere (might not be true) about a woman holding a mans hand up on a busy tube and asking "does any one know who this belongs to? Coz I just found it on my arse" 
I hope it is true.


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## JimW (Aug 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I read something somewhere (might not be true) about a woman holding a mans hand up on a busy tube and asking "does any one know who this belongs to? Coz I just found it on my arse"
> I hope it is true.


 
One of my first girlfriends was a sophisticate from that there London who blew into town and stole me heart, and she said she'd done that.


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## Kizmet (Aug 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So you prefer posters who'll give you a free pass if you express yourself poorly and/or chat shite?



You do, so why shouldn't I? 

Anyway, we can have different opinions on what is poorly expressed or not. Lets leave it there... you seem to be trying to justify something that I just don't agree with.


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## trabuquera (Aug 21, 2013)

I once verbally flamed a groper on the Tube so loudly, obscenely and angrily that he slunk off the carriage actually saying : "no need to be so shouty and sweary about it" 

One of my finest hours... (it didn't feel like it at the time, tho,  'cos I'd really lashed out as was so sick of regular incidents and didn't feel it was an entirely controlled response)


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2013)

Catching up on thread. Has anyone said that this behaviour is a working class issue yet?


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## DotCommunist (Aug 21, 2013)

Clair De Lune said:


> Catching up on thread. Has anyone said that this behaviour is a working class issue yet?


 

not on my watch they haven't


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## Manter (Aug 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I read something somewhere (might not be true) about a woman holding a mans hand up on a busy tube and asking "does any one know who this belongs to? Coz I just found it on my arse"
> I hope it is true.


I did it to a guy in the lobby of the Met in NYC. And I know someone who did it on the tube. It's a useful urban myth as it gives people something to do, so is now urban fact


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## toggle (Aug 21, 2013)

Rushy said:


> She said that people would have to be very over sensitive to interpret the comments which _she received_ as being harassment. Interestingly nobody asked her anything about those comments and her experiences. Is that because no unsolicited comments whatsoever could be acceptable and the details of her experiences are therefore irrelevant?


 
there comes as point tbh, where that (and a few other) particular doozie becomes 'oh no, not again' and i loose the will to try to respond to the same thing that will then get jumped on by the same serial apologists and made about them.

Her experiences aren't irrelevant. but she seems to think the experiences of those who have complained of harassment are.maybe she's not getting it as bad as others, maybe she's not noticing some stuff, maybe she's able to give the entitled men calling to her the kind of comments they want in response so they don't start yelling the nasty stuff at the woman who rejected them. if the later, fine for her, but a woman *should not have* to behave in the way those men want so she can get from one end of the street to the other without facing abuse for not being friendly, flirty and responsive.


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## Manter (Aug 21, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Fair enough. Although it was a genuine question, your ref to imams and fgm seemed odd to me.  I'm not firky, I'm not going to accuse you of being a wacist


Good! That little witch hunt was horrible.....

However, is something I should be careful about- fgm predates all the big monotheistic religions and Judaism is the only one that has completely stamped it out. It is often used to attack islam (esp in the US) but In Egypt, for example, they estimate 97% women have been cut in some way, so just on the basis of the statistics on ethnic make up you have to accept Coptic Christians are also practising it. Conversely places like Saudi are *very* anti, despite being the negative vision of islam in many ways. And it isn't a middle eastern or African problem, it's more complex than that. However, there is a Hadith that has been used to justify it. It's a weak Hadith, and most (sane) scholars think that the overriding principle that a woman should not be harmed and should take sexual pleasure in her husband means it rules out anything more than a symbolic cut on the prepuce (type 1 according to WHO categorisation) tho many go further and say even that is not allowed.

<<derail>>


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## kittyP (Aug 21, 2013)

Clair De Lune said:


> Catching up on thread. Has anyone said that this behaviour is a working class issue yet?


 

No that haven't but city boys are just as bad for it as building site lads ime.


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## kittyP (Aug 21, 2013)

Manter said:


> I did it to a guy in the lobby of the Met in NYC. And I know someone who did it on the tube. It's a useful urban myth as it gives people something to do, so is now urban fact


 

Brilliant


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 21, 2013)

Manter said:


> And we can have the transliteration argument till the cows come home- let's not go there....



Only just spotted this, my understanding is that imam is a leader of prayers whereas iman means faith.


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## Balbi (Aug 21, 2013)

Manter said:


> I did it to a guy in the lobby of the Met in NYC. And I know someone who did it on the tube. It's a useful urban myth as it gives people something to do, so is now urban fact


 

Modern parable


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## Manter (Aug 21, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Only just spotted this, my understanding is that imam is a leader of prayers whereas iman means faith.


I have seen 'leader of prayers' spelt iman, imam, Eman, Imaan and Imaam. And I just googled it and encountered one site that categorically stated you need iman to be an imam, and another than seemed to use three spellings in the first page... My Arabic is seriously rusty (and wasn't great in the first place) but I can't find the standard summary of accepted transliteration conventions: they are usually on the Harvard website. :grr:

What I meant is that where the source of a language Iain a non-Latin script, there are always huge debates about how it s written in Latin script. *usually* there are a generally accepted set of rules at a point in time, but then someone will be along who is differently educated, working to a different agenda or whatever and challenge them. Add complications like symbols that change meanings of letters, pronunciation and tonal elements to language (same letters written mean different things when pronounced differently- one of the joys of Arabic) and you end up with a specialist study subject . Russian is the one I can talk about with confidence (ie romanisation of Cyrillic) as there is a lot of politics behind it: with Arabic the disputes are partly religious and partly linked to the fact classical and regional Arabic(s) differ.

E2a found something! Not what I was looking for but it'll do
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic


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## McGc (Aug 21, 2013)

Can't say it's really ever bothered me, lived here for 20 years - always been like that in Brixton but it's usually just all chat and no action - just part of the furniture the randy males who 'think out loud' and seems to be part of the west Indian culture to do that - at least it used to be. The women give some pretty good back-chat too which could also be deemed to be offensive. It's part of the living theatre of Brixton which is why we choose to live there. If you don't like it then perhaps you should live somewhere like Surrey where everyone is frightfully nice and nobody would dream of speaking to anyone out of turn. This is grimy old London and it has been ever thus.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> I agree. Glad you pointed this out. The Met website does not have any figures for harassment of any kind.
> 
> Either its not reported or its not taken as a serious issue by the Met. There is new recent offence for stalking. So looks like the Police will take interest if its repeated harassment/stalking by a man of a women.
> 
> Im assuming the Met figures are reported crimes not convictions. As that seems to be the data the Met use.


 

Yes, I do wonder _how_ you would report this. Would it fall under 'antisocial' behaviour? I emailed the local police to see how best to report things like this but they've not yet responded.


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## S A Villarino (Aug 21, 2013)

Gramsci said:


> Hi Sirena.
> 
> Given that one aspect of this thread is what constitutes street harassment can you define what you would regard as the difference between harassment and a compliment?
> 
> ...


 

Sorry Gramsci, this reasoning doesn't wash with me. There is sufficient evidence to prove that sexual harassment is an issue in and outside of Brixton. 43% of women under 34 have claimed that they've received unwanted sexual harassment on the street/public transport in London in 2012. Right now the status quo is all too much in the favour of Sirena - that street harassment is not a problem and that women are oversensitive. But from this thread and from many people I know, the actions that women have to take to avoid these problems - listening to music all the time, dressing down, avoiding eye contact etc. - impacts our quality of life. This is something that very very few straight men will have to put up with.

Her experience is valid but that does not invalidate the thousands of voices that find this behaviour threatening. You cannot give them equal weighting. Not interested in continuing the normalisation of street harassment. That's what the rest of society does.


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## toggle (Aug 21, 2013)

McGc said:


> Can't say it's really ever bothered me, lived here for 20 years - always been like that in Brixton but it's usually just all chat and no action - just part of the furniture the randy males who 'think out loud' and seems to be part of the west Indian culture to do that - at least it used to be. The women give some pretty good back-chat too which could also be deemed to be offensive. It's part of the living theatre of Brixton which is why we choose to live there. If you don't like it then perhaps you should live somewhere like Surrey where everyone is frightfully nice and nobody would dream of speaking to anyone out of turn. This is grimy old London and it has been ever thus.


 
and here comes another to try to make out that this is behavior done mostly by black males and black women are all able to handle this, with added 'fuck off if you don't like being abused on the street,m cause this is my well cool place'

read the tread, already covered why this is bullshit


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2013)

toggle said:


> and here comes another to try to make out that this is behavior done mostly by black males and black women are all able to handle this, with added 'fuck off if you don't like being abused on the street,m cause this is my well cool place'
> 
> read the tread, already covered why this is bullshit


 
Init! Where I live is a predominantly white area. I get this shit all the time.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 21, 2013)

McGc said:


> Can't say it's really ever bothered me, lived here for 20 years - always been like that in Brixton but it's usually just all chat and no action - just part of the furniture the randy males who 'think out loud' and seems to be part of the west Indian culture to do that - at least it used to be. The women give some pretty good back-chat too which could also be deemed to be offensive. It's part of the living theatre of Brixton which is why we choose to live there. If you don't like it then perhaps you should live somewhere like Surrey where everyone is frightfully nice and nobody would dream of speaking to anyone out of turn. This is grimy old London and it has been ever thus.


I think the appropriate response here is 

1/10.  Could Try Harder.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 21, 2013)

Clair De Lune said:


> Init! Where I live is a predominantly white area. I get this shit all the time.


Yup. It's certainly not unique to Brixton, indeed whilst this doesn't mesh with OP's experience, several posters have found Brixton marginally or significantly better than other places.


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## killer b (Aug 21, 2013)

_the living theatre._ i'll be using that one next time i get hauled up on a sexual assault charge.


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## Gramsci (Aug 21, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Sorry Gramsci, this reasoning doesn't wash with me. There is sufficient evidence to prove that sexual harassment is an issue in and outside of Brixton. 43% of women under 34 have claimed that they've received unwanted sexual harassment on the street/public transport in London in 2012. Right now the status quo is all too much in the favour of Sirena - that street harassment is not a problem and that women are oversensitive. But from this thread and from many people I know, the actions that women have to take to avoid these problems - listening to music all the time, dressing down, avoiding eye contact etc. - impacts our quality of life. This is something that very very few straight men will have to put up with.
> 
> Her experience is valid but that does not invalidate the thousands of voices that find this behaviour threatening. You cannot give them equal weighting. Not interested in continuing the normalisation of street harassment. That's what the rest of society does.


 
There is not a lot of evidence as its been not been researched that much. There is the YouGov poll I found. A study from North American study is mentioned on the YouGov poll. This indicate little or no research has been done here. Most research is of workplace. The other poll by YouGov of 16 to 18 year olds indicates there is a problem for young women in particular. So there is limited research on this topic.

The YouGov poll indicate that 2 out of every 5 women have suffered sexual harassment in public places in last year.

Thats not to say that its not an issue. Its just that there appears to be little or no actual social research on it. Unless I have missed something.

Sirena first post was that she did not feel that she had been harassed.

Her reasoning, in her later posts, is flawed. As was made clear to her by me among others. She made generalisations about one particular community in Brixton. Which she did admit was a generalisation.

But her experience is hers. If you see what I mean. What I am saying is that whilst she can be criticised for devaluing other womens experience her own experience needs to be taken into account.

You did ask in first post:



> I want to know other people's stories. *Have you experienced it?* Have you seen it happen to others? How does Brixton square with other areas?


 
Sirena answer as long time Brixton resident was no to your question.


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## Gramsci (Aug 21, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Yes, I do wonder _how_ you would report this. Would it fall under 'antisocial' behaviour? I emailed the local police to see how best to report things like this but they've not yet responded.


 
Looks to me like the reason they have not replied is because they do not have a way set up to report it.

Get the impression from the YouGov poll that maybe the Transport Police are better bet to ask about this. As poll asked questions about public transport. The Transport Police are separate from the Met. Even though they have all the same powers as Met cops. Brixton is big interchange and transport area (overhead trains, underground and buses). So it might be worth asking them directly rather than local Met police.

ASBO is used for repeated behaviours. Its normally is used to exclude and individual from a particular area. But ASBO s are contentious area.

There is or was a "Dispersal Zone" in Brixton. So Police had powers to tell a person(s) to leave an area if they were causing distress. I guess that could cover sexual harassment. It might be worth asking local cops if there is a Dispersal Zone in Brixton now and would they "disperse" a man/ men who were harassing a women and also use the possible powers of ASBO or "acceptable behaviour order". It does not say anything about sexual harassment but I would have thought the DZ powers are widely enough drawn to do this if the cops are so inclined. Be interesting to see if they think this is possible. Depends on what kind of mood they are in that day.

For the record I am no fan of DZ, ASBO etc.

ASB is dealt with in conjunction with the Council and Police. It comes under:

Cabinet Member for Safer and Stronger Neighbourhoods - Councillor Jack Hopkins

020 7091 9010
jhopkins@lambeth.gov.uk

Might be worth dropping him an email. New Labour types take an interest in these issues.


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## toggle (Aug 21, 2013)

Transport police recently did get in contact with everydaysexism to encourage women to report harassment on public transport


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

toggle said:


> Transport police recently did get in contact with everydaysexism to encourage women to report harassment on public transport



 I posted about this project upthread... had an interesting but futile twitter chat with btp about it. Their comms team/social media person didn't seem to know what they were talking about


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## Tears carpenter (Aug 22, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis. Regardless of what I wear (office clothes, jeans, dresses [and most importantly it doesn't matter!]) I can't walk out on my own without people making comments, shouting at me from across the road, making pussy cat noises, occasionally following etc. Many men don't seem to respect me because I am a young woman who has the tenacity to walk on her own.
> 
> ...


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## Tears carpenter (Aug 22, 2013)

It happen loads of times (yes really) but to be honest the clothes I was wearing at the time was showing skin and my tattoos and muscles, a yardy woman said " yo, come let me give you so real love" now I laugh it of because I born and bread in brixton and I guess its a very much big part of brixton life that the whole area is very vibrant with all kind of walks of life... 

Most of the time its harmless and when living in a urban area you learn to ignore the cat calls in a way that's not going to offend any one and keep your self safe in your day to day life...


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## idumea (Aug 22, 2013)

Callie said:


> I would LOVE to have the guts to do that, arse pinching is something that truely enrages me but sadly I dont have the power or ability to lump the person doing it. Id be too scared of it backfiring so to speak.
> 
> Thsi thread has reminded me of one of the reasons I listen to music virtually all the time when out and about - you block out the sound of others


 
Same, every time anyone's ever grabbed my arse or whatever I've been too frozen up and  to properly respond and then it's over and the guy is gone. Infuriating.  Once I turned around and the guy grinned at me and looked proud after giving my arse a rub. I was so surprised/shocked I didn't know what to do and just gave him a look and walked off.
Hasn't happened in a while, I'd like to think I'd turn around and give a slap or shout if it did again, but...easy to plan things in your head, when they actually occur it's a bit different. I remind myself it's mportant not to beat yourself up if you don't respond 'perfectly', you're not the dickhead here.


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## idumea (Aug 22, 2013)

I did just have a quiet moment of anger that I've been so self-critical and angry at myself because of my own reactions to harassment in the past.
As if it's not bad enough to feel guilty or judged for one's dress sense, style, way of being, body etc that somehow 'caused' acts of harassment...to also feel guilty for not responding 'appropriately' or how I imagine I should respond is insult to injury, frankly. 

"a proper feminist would've slapped him in the face" - shut up brain


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

Manter said:


> I have seen 'leader of prayers' spelt iman, imam, Eman, Imaan and Imaam. And I just googled it and encountered one site that categorically stated you need iman to be an imam, and another than seemed to use three spellings in the first page... My Arabic is seriously rusty (and wasn't great in the first place) but I can't find the standard summary of accepted transliteration conventions: they are usually on the Harvard website. :grr:
> 
> What I meant is that where the source of a language Iain a non-Latin script, there are always huge debates about how it s written in Latin script. *usually* there are a generally accepted set of rules at a point in time, but then someone will be along who is differently educated, working to a different agenda or whatever and challenge them. Add complications like symbols that change meanings of letters, pronunciation and tonal elements to language (same letters written mean different things when pronounced differently- one of the joys of Arabic) and you end up with a specialist study subject . Russian is the one I can talk about with confidence (ie romanisation of Cyrillic) as there is a lot of politics behind it: with Arabic the disputes are partly religious and partly linked to the fact classical and regional Arabic(s) differ.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah I get what your saying... I've seen leader of prayers spelt multiple ways too (mostly imam, imaam) but always with an m on the end. Similarly with faith but always an n (mostly iman, imaan). But never seen leader of prayers ending with an n....

Anyway, I think we're quite off topic here... Happy to continue by pm if you want


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

Tears carpenter said:


> It happen loads of times (yes really) *but to be honest the clothes I was wearing at the time was showing skin and my tattoos and muscles,* a yardy woman said " yo, come let me give you so real love" now I laugh it of because I born and bread in brixton and I guess its a very much big part of brixton life that the whole area is very vibrant with all kind of walks of life...
> 
> Most of the time its harmless and w*hen living in a urban area you learn to ignore the cat calls in a way that's not going to offend any one and keep your self safe in your day to day life...*


 
So do you feel like you solicited that response from strangers because of what you were wearing/how you looked?

Also the second point in bold, who should women be concerned about offending by challenging cat calls?

Women (and people) shouldn't have to modify their behaviour or clothing to keep themselves safe in day to day life.


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## girasol (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> I did just have a quiet moment of anger that I've been so self-critical and angry at myself because of my own reactions to harassment in the past.
> As if it's not bad enough to feel guilty or judged for one's dress sense, style, way of being, body etc that somehow 'caused' acts of harassment...to also feel guilty for not responding 'appropriately' or how I imagine I should respond is insult to injury, frankly.


 
Yep, I froze on two occasions - so odd when that happens. I think I had purposefully forgotten all the crap that's happened over the years, but there's been a few  (mostly not street related though)

My most surprising reaction was when I believed I was being followed and I turned around and screamed at his face, loud as I could. Thing is, to this day, I still don't know if that was his intention or not, for all I know I screamed at someone completely innocent. He'd been walking right behind me for longer than I consider comfortable though. And it was late at night on a quiet street.


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## stethoscope (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> Same, every time anyone's ever grabbed my arse or whatever I've been too frozen up and  to properly respond and then it's over and the guy is gone. Infuriating.  Once I turned around and the guy grinned at me and looked proud after giving my arse a rub. I was so surprised/shocked I didn't know what to do and just gave him a look and walked off.
> Hasn't happened in a while, I'd like to think I'd turn around and give a slap or shout if it did again, but...easy to plan things in your head, when they actually occur it's a bit different. I remind myself it's mportant not to beat yourself up if you don't respond 'perfectly', you're not the dickhead here.


 
Yes, I usually freeze in these situations - they just take you utterly out of the blue and I don't think you can always respond in the way you want/intend to. That said, the one time I did manage to retort, it seemed to make it worse


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## idumea (Aug 22, 2013)

On the subject of harrasment and modifying your dress, clothes, mannerisms - I had a really interesting conversation recently between myself, a straight male friend, and a gay male friend. Second friend is both gay and cheerfully 'camp' in terms of his dress/mannerisms.
He and I both described similar processes of walking with headphones, modifying who we looked at, where we walked, our body language, how we dressed, and then a quick kneejerk internal process of guilt/shame when we get harassed. The harassment my friend gets is homophobic, whereas mine are misogynistic, but the kind of thought process is similar - 'what did *I* do to cause this' followed by anger and fury that we have to modify our lives so much.
My heterosexual male friend was astounded, it's something he's never really had to deal with. I think he was astonished at the level to which anticipating and dealing harassment it was a part of our lives and not really his at all.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

girasol said:


> Yep, I froze on two occasions - so odd when that happens. I think I had purposefully forgotten all the crap that's happened over the years, but there's been a few  (mostly not street related though)
> 
> My most surprising reaction was when I believed I was being followed and I turned around and screamed at his face, loud as I could. Thing is, to this day, I still don't know if that was his intention or not, for all I know I screamed at someone completely innocent. He'd been walking right behind me for longer than I consider comfortable though. And it was late at night on a quiet street.


 
Walking closely to someone on a quiet street late at night is bound to make a person feel uneasy. Well done for challenging it.

I think it's really natural to freeze up. I had a is this really happening moment when a man wanked off in front on me of the district line on my way to work on Saturday morning when I was a student. I didn't know what to do, utterly froze, so I just looked at my feet hoping it would stop. I was frightened he might do something so I thought if I pretended not to notice.... Luckily it wasn't long until my stop. Thinking about it now still makes me feel sort of grubby


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## idumea (Aug 22, 2013)

Sorry you had to go through that MrsDarlingKiss.

There are a lot of wankers in the world. 
The more I read this thread and the more I think about it the angrier and angrier I get that this is the backdrop so many people have to put up with. Total impotent fury.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> Sorry you had to go through that MrsDarlingKiss.
> 
> There are a lot of wankers in the world.
> The more I read this thread and the more I think about it the angrier and angrier I get that this is the backdrop so many people have to put up with. Total impotent fury.


 
Thanks idumea

This thread is very angry making. Not just the shitty stuff that people have gone through but the, few, people that have trivialised the experiences of others and acted as apologist for this type of behaviour. Thankfully there hasn't been loads of that on this thread but urban is seen to be more liberal than the outside world where there is so much victim blaming....


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## idumea (Aug 22, 2013)

sometimes of course casual shitty misogyny and shitty homophobia join hands and have a big old shitty wank, as proved by the man who recently followed me down the escalator at Brixton tube (shortly after I'd got a grade 2 haircut) to vocally enquire if I was a lesbian


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> sometimes of course casual shitty misogyny and shitty homophobia join hands and have a big old shitty wank, as the man who followed recently followed me down the escalator at Brixton tube (shortly after I'd got a grade 2 haircut) to vocally enquire if I was a lesbian proves.


 
I've always wanted to reply something along the lines of "I fuck boys and girls but I'd never fuck you" 

(too afraid I might get a smack in the mouth tho)


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## emanymton (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> I did just have a quiet moment of anger that I've been so self-critical and angry at myself because of my own reactions to harassment in the past.
> As if it's not bad enough to feel guilty or judged for one's dress sense, style, way of being, body etc that somehow 'caused' acts of harassment...to also feel guilty for not responding 'appropriately' or how I imagine I should respond is insult to injury, frankly.
> 
> "a proper feminist would've slapped him in the face" - shut up brain


How long before you get angry with yourself for being angry with yourself for being too self critical? You seem to be stuck in something of a vicious circle.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

emanymton said:


> How long before you get angry with yourself for being angry with yourself for being too self critical? You seem to be stuck in something of a vicious circle.


 
I'm trying to work out whether you're being a dick or not


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

emanymton said:


> How long before you get angry with yourself for being angry with yourself for being too self critical? You seem to be stuck in something of a vicious circle.


 

She shouldn't worry her pretty little head about it, should she x


----------



## slcr (Aug 22, 2013)

S A Villarino said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm writing an article on sexual street harassment in Brixton. While I love Brixton, one of the massive downsides is the street harassment I get on a daily basis. Regardless of what I wear (office clothes, jeans, dresses [and most importantly it doesn't matter!]) I can't walk out on my own without people making comments, shouting at me from across the road, making pussy cat noises, occasionally following etc. Many men don't seem to respect me because I am a young woman who has the tenacity to walk on her own.
> 
> ...


 
I've experienced it once in 7 years.  Has always seemed to me way less bad than other areas of London.  I mostly walk around the hill / tube / market areas.  Not counting market traders who try to flirt, that is.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

The market traders have stopped trying it with me after i very loudly told one of them that it wasn't going to encourage me shopping with them, quite the opposite. I get good morning or hello now instead   Sometimes hello dear. I'm 30 not 80


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## Rushy (Aug 22, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> The market traders have stopped trying it with me after i very loudly told one of them that it wasn't going to encourage me shopping with them, quite the opposite. I get good morning or hello now instead  Sometimes hello dear. I'm 30 not 80


 
What did they say before?


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> The market traders have stopped trying it with me after i very loudly told one of them that it wasn't going to encourage me shopping with them, quite the opposite. I get good morning or hello now instead  Sometimes hello dear. I'm 30 not 80


 

You've turned into a 'dear' because you're not up for it anymore, obvs.


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

Rushy said:


> What did they say before?


 
Things like *greeting* sexy/baby/beautiful. I pass through the market multiple times each day so it got pretty irritating particularly as it was the same couple of guys every time. I still make a point of holding my partners hand when I pass through the market.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> On the subject of harrasment and modifying your dress, clothes, mannerisms - I had a really interesting conversation recently between myself, a straight male friend, and a gay male friend. Second friend is both gay and cheerfully 'camp' in terms of his dress/mannerisms.
> He and I both described similar processes of walking with headphones, modifying who we looked at, where we walked, our body language, how we dressed, and then a quick kneejerk internal process of guilt/shame when we get harassed. The harassment my friend gets is homophobic, whereas mine are misogynistic, but the kind of thought process is similar - 'what did *I* do to cause this' followed by anger and fury that we have to modify our lives so much.
> My heterosexual male friend was astounded, it's something he's never really had to deal with. I think he was astonished at the level to which anticipating and dealing harassment it was a part of our lives and not really his at all.


 
This reminds me of something that happened in Brixton years ago.

Was walking with two friends. My friend was bisexual and sometimes wore make up. I was with him and his girlfriend. Walking up Acre lane he got some abuse from a group of men walking down the street. His girlfriend answered the man back. They were taking exception on anyone being gay ( he used less polite language) being in Brixton. It started to get quite nasty once she answered them back. We were outnumbered and these were big guys. It was middle of day and we were by tescos so they thought better of it and went on there way.

It sad imo that this kind of policing of the streets goes on still now. For that is what it is.People in general should not have to modify there lives.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2013)

McGc said:


> Can't say it's really ever bothered me, lived here for 20 years - always been like that in Brixton but it's usually just all chat and no action - just part of the furniture the randy males who 'think out loud' and seems to be part of the west Indian culture to do that - at least it used to be. The women give some pretty good back-chat too which could also be deemed to be offensive.


 
Back-chat shouldn't serve as a justification for sexist banter in the first place, which seems to be what you're implying - "the girls give as good as they get, so the banter is fine".



> It's part of the living theatre of Brixton which is why we choose to live there. If you don't like it then perhaps you should live somewhere like Surrey where everyone is frightfully nice and nobody would dream of speaking to anyone out of turn. This is grimy old London and it has been ever thus.


 
Yes, it *has* "ever been thus", and that's why it *isn't* dismissable as "part of the west Indian culture" - that's why it's part of a sexist culture.
And who the fuck are you telling people that if they don't like it, they should move? I don't like it, and I'm working-class south-west London born and bred, and any fucker telling me to move , well, they can go piss up a rope!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2013)

Clair De Lune said:


> Init! Where I live is a predominantly white area. I get this shit all the time.


 
Pretty much wherever males gather in packs, this shit happens, regardless of class, colour or culture.  Anyone who thinks different is kidding themselves.  This is about asymmetric power relations between women and men, and the fact that even relatively-powerless males can arbitrarily decide to exercise social power over women.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2013)

killer b said:


> _the living theatre._ i'll be using that one next time i get hauled up on a sexual assault charge.


 
*Next* time?


----------



## Winot (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> My heterosexual male friend was astounded, it's something he's never really had to deal with. I think he was astonished at the level to which anticipating and dealing harassment it was a part of our lives and not really his at all.



Yes I have had exactly this experience (as het male with socially progressive friends) naively thinking homophobic/misogynistic abuse is not a feature of London life and being shocked at extent to which it still features.


----------



## idumea (Aug 22, 2013)

Winot said:


> Yes I have had exactly this experience (as het male with socially progressive friends) naively thinking homophobic/misogynistic abuse is not a feature of London life and being shocked at extent to which it still features.


 

Yeah, it's really fucked up.  Worse outside London too. This mate got hit in the face with a smashed bottle walking down a road in Leicester a few years ago. WTF is wrong with some people


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> Yeah, it's really fucked up. Worse outside London too. This mate got hit in the face with a smashed bottle walking down a road in Leicester a few years ago. WTF is wrong with some people


 
Fucking hell


----------



## emanymton (Aug 22, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I'm trying to work out whether you're being a dick or not


More a case of being dick by accident. Sorry if I offended you.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

emanymton said:


> More a case of being dick by accident. Sorry if I offended you.


 
you dont owe me an apology but you might owe one to idumea


----------



## emanymton (Aug 22, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> you dont owe me an apology but you might owe one to idumea


Opps, posting on my phone and I tend to lose track of who's who.


----------



## toggle (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> "a proper feminist would've slapped him in the face" - shut up brain


 
gawds I hate that. the attitude and the way we all internalise it. there's still a way a proper woman should behave, even when we've 'opted out' of the traditional behavior modes.


----------



## silverfish (Aug 22, 2013)

toggle said:


> gawds I hate that. the attitude and the way we all internalise it. there's still a way a proper woman should behave, even when we've 'opted out' of the traditional behavior modes.


 
If I'm with my partner and someone touched her up whats a normal blokes "proper" response


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## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

silverfish said:


> If I'm with my partner and someone touched her up whats a normal blokes "proper" response


 
Ask you partner how she would want you to respond if this happened. Do that.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 22, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Massive cultural generalisations aside for a moment, I think it's a very dodgy and apologist argument to suggest that we shouldn't challenge sexism within certain cultures


 
This and a few other posts saying that some on here are apologists for not wanting to challenge harassment, etc, in particular cultures. I don't think anyone on here has excused sexist behaviour because it comes from a particular ethnic/cultural group. My concern is about the possible consequences of singling out any one community.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 22, 2013)

silverfish said:


> If I'm with my partner and someone touched her up whats a normal blokes "proper" response


 
I prefer a man to butt out of it, and allow me to deal with it myself.  I've NEVER told my partners when other blokes have come on to me, what's the point.  Its very infantilsing, or whatever the word is.


----------



## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

shygirl said:


> This and a few other posts saying that some on here are apologists for not wanting to challenge harassment, etc, in particular cultures. I don't think anyone on here has excused sexist behaviour because it comes from a particular ethnic/cultural group. My concern is about the possible consequences of singling out any one community.


I don't think we have singled out one community.  And the very few who have have been very firmly slapped down


----------



## toggle (Aug 22, 2013)

silverfish said:


> If I'm with my partner and someone touched her up whats a normal blokes "proper" response


 
I know what response I would prefer. I don't however happen to have a telepathic awareness of what your partner might want. If you had considered the post you were replying to slightly more carefully, you would be well aware that I was not in favor of any kind of definition of what was or was not a 'proper' response by individuals facing harassment. That many of us have an internalised idea of what the proper response should be is a part of the problem.



so try asking her.


----------



## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I prefer a man to butt out of it, and allow me to deal with it myself. I've NEVER told my partners when other blokes have come on to me, what's the point. Its very infantilsing, or whatever the word is.


Come on and shouted at/grabbed in street are a bit different.  I've told the Northerner about some stuff after the fact, he has seen some stuff happen.  And how he responds or doesn't entirely depends on the context- in parts of the Middle East words said to me were sometimes a challenge to him, i.e. he needed to respond.  So I taught him to swear in Arabic   Other times I need him to stick closer to me- e.g. a market in Tbilisi where I needed him to be obviously there so I could relax- every time he wandered off someone came and hissed in my ear.  In Brixton, I can look after myself, and him punching a random wouldn't exactly help matters


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

shygirl said:


> This and a few other posts saying that some on here are apologists for not wanting to challenge harassment, etc, in particular cultures. I don't think anyone on here has excused sexist behaviour because it comes from a particular ethnic/cultural group. My concern is about the possible consequences of *singling out any one community*.


 
I don't think that anyone on here is saying that sexual street harassment is the sole preserve of black men.The apologist posters have talked about the black community as if it's one homogenous group, quite the opposite of singling out. Many posters such as AS, mation and Violent panda have taken issue with that generalisation.

What is clear to me from my experience and this discussion is that sexual street harassment is done by men from all different backgrounds and not just the black ones.


----------



## boohoo (Aug 22, 2013)

idumea said:


> sometimes of course casual shitty misogyny and shitty homophobia join hands and have a big old shitty wank, as proved by the man who recently followed me down the escalator at Brixton tube (shortly after I'd got a grade 2 haircut) to vocally enquire if I was a lesbian


 
When I had shaved hair, I remember a guy having the are you a lesbian chat. Then being pleased that I wasn't because that meant I would have children.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

boohoo said:


> When I had shaved hair, I remember a guy having the are you a lesbian chat. Then being pleased that I wasn't because that meant I would have children.


 
His children?


----------



## kittyP (Aug 22, 2013)

Manter said:


> Come on and shouted at/grabbed in street are a bit different. I've told the Northerner about some stuff after the fact, he has seen some stuff happen. And how he responds or doesn't entirely depends on the context- in parts of the Middle East words said to me were sometimes a challenge to him, i.e. he needed to respond. So I taught him to swear in Arabic  Other times I need him to stick closer to me- e.g. a market in Tbilisi where I needed him to be obviously there so I could relax- every time he wandered off someone came and hissed in my ear. In Brixton, I can look after myself, and him punching a random wouldn't exactly help matters


 

I don't tend to tell badgers until after the fact unless I am really freaking as I don't want him to get himself in to trouble.
I know it is true that they should respect whatever you want them to do or say about it but sometimes it is difficult when emotions are high, in the same way as I _might_ find it difficult to control how I reacted if someone did something to him while I was there iywim?

ETA: Also in the same was as if someone did something bad to anyone I knew.


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## boohoo (Aug 22, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> His children?


 
 yer it was an odd conversation.

Other odd ones is being tapped on the shoulder and told with my bottom I'd go far.  And also being asked why I am so white....


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

The last time someone touched me on the street I wanted to go home and get my bf to beat the crap out of him..... for about a millisecond  I was SO ANGRY and I wanted the bloke to _get touched slightly harder than he'd touched me. _But it was a millisecond and tbh was more about what a guttersnipe my ex was  fuck alone knows. *ahem*


----------



## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I don't tend to tell badgers until after the fact unless I am really freaking as I don't want him to get himself in to trouble.
> I know it is true that they should respect whatever you want them to do or say about it but it is difficult when emotions are high, in the same way as I _might_ find it difficult to control how I reacted if someone did something to him while I was there iywim?


yeah, completely agree.  The Northerner tends not to get 'punchy', fortunately, but I had an ex who would have really struggled not to get himself into trouble if he'd known about a couple of incidents at the time.

yet another thing we are supposed to take on- protecting and managing other's reactions!


----------



## boohoo (Aug 22, 2013)

Moving away from London to random stuff outside the city, I remember a guy in liverpool running up to us shouting suck my dick...

Though we did get some serious bother from a  guy in a taxi queue who grabbed my butt and then didn't like it when we asked him to not do that. He shouted at me and my friend to go back to London where we came from ( although my friend is a scouser). This bloke was quite unpleasant.


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## kittyP (Aug 22, 2013)

boohoo said:


> When I had shaved hair, I remember a guy having the are you a lesbian chat. Then being pleased that I wasn't because that meant I would have children.


 

A guy was once asking me to go home with him while trapped on a bus. 
I told him I was married. He asked if I had children, I said "not that it's makes any difference but no", he couldn't fathom why if I didn't have children, I wouldn't go him with him. 
I got off the bus early where it was more full of people but thankfully he stayed on.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

Ugh. I am now thinking about the dickhead ex and an incident on my 22nd birthday where he caught sight of a man having a good look ay my boobs. My ex had a proper go at *me* for it. Yep this is the same ex that said I brought incidents of sexual harassment on myself


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

boohoo said:


> Moving away from London to random stuff outside the city, I remember a guy in liverpool running up to us shouting suck my dick...
> 
> Though we did get some serious bother from a guy in a taxi queue who *grabbed my butt and then didn't like it when we asked him to not do that*. He shouted at me and my friend to go back to London where we came from ( although my friend is a scouser). This bloke was quite unpleasant.


 

But WHY WOULD SOMEONE DO THAT? WHAT DO THEY WANT?


----------



## kittyP (Aug 22, 2013)

Manter said:


> yeah, completely agree. The Northerner tends not to get 'punchy', fortunately, but I had an ex who would have really struggled not to get himself into trouble if he'd known about a couple of incidents at the time.
> 
> yet another thing we are supposed to take on- protecting and managing other's reactions!


 

Badgers isn't punchy either but, if he went and had a word and the wanker got punchy, there isn't a lot you can do.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> Ugh. I am now thinking about the dickhead ex and an incident on my 22nd birthday where he caught sight of a man having a good look ay my boobs. My ex had a proper go at *me* for it. Yep this is the same ex that said I brought incidents of sexual harassment on myself


 

Yes! Some guy looked  glanced at me in the street. "Do you know him?" I was asked meaingfully "What? Know who?"


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> Yes! Some guy looked glanced at me in the street. "Do you know him?" I was asked meaingfully "What? Know who?"


 
Innit. I hadn't even noticed. We *had* to go home after that, another occasion ruined by that twat.


----------



## kittyP (Aug 22, 2013)

Ladies that's shit!


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Ladies that's shit!


 

I have got to blame myself for choosing to be with a dickhead and not throwing him back into the gutter where I found him


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

A female house mate years ago used to get crap every night on her way home from work when I was living in Clapton. So one night I went and confronted her tormenters, because I'd had a beer.  They actually seemed a bit shocked that they were being pulled and didn't respond aggressively, much to my good fortune.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Badgers isn't punchy either but, if he went and had a word and the wanker got punchy, there isn't a lot you can do.


 
Scutta is normally quite good at diffusing aggression but when ive needed to say something it's normally been afterwards. Only said at the time when I've been a bit worried or not able to deal with it by myself.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Ladies that's shit!


 
He only said it because he loved me


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Aug 22, 2013)

shygirl said:


> This and a few other posts saying that some on here are apologists for not wanting to challenge harassment, etc, in particular cultures. I don't think anyone on here has excused sexist behaviour because it comes from a particular ethnic/cultural group. My concern is about the possible consequences of singling out any one community.


Tbh I completely agree with you on the singling out thing - other people had made that point though and that was why I noted that I was not specifically referring to the generalisations in the post I took issue with. And IME it's happened to me from lots of different groups/locations/communities. My further concern about the singling out issue is that it's easy for people to fall into stereotypes.

I would disagree with no-one excusing sexist behaviour though. It may not have been explicit, but I think the tone of a few posts has felt quite implicitly excusing. IMO obviously.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> A female house mate years ago used to get crap every night on her way home from work when I was living in Clapton. So one night I went and confronted her tormenters, because I'd had a beer.  They actually seemed a bit shocked that they were being pulled and didn't respond aggressively, much to my good fortune.


 

See, this is so so so complicated. She didn't feel she could say anything (I assume), she probably mentioned it to you kinda in passing, it didn't occur to them that were upsetting her, they didn't care anyway but they respected your opinion on the matter. No wonder these threads run and run and run.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> See, this is so so so complicated. She didn't feel she could say anything (I assume), she probably mentioned it to you kinda in passing, it didn't occur to them that were upsetting her, they didn't care anyway but they respected your opinion on the matter. No wonder these threads run and run and run.



Okay, I have no idea why men do this, I've even worked with some that do it.  but I *think* they see it as a form of compliment giving rather than bullying. It's deluded male bonding - we like the ladies don't we? Let's have a bullshit feedback loop proving how manly we are to ourselves.

Yes she mentioned it in passing, a few times. Then on this one particular night I was pissed and she just got back so I went out to confront them. Fucking stupid in hindsight but they were shocked (thank fuck) that someone was confronting them over it.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I prefer a man to butt out of it, and allow me to deal with it myself. I've NEVER told my partners when other blokes have come on to me, what's the point. Its very infantilsing, or whatever the word is.


 
what Manter said. There's a difference between a man coming on to you and a man groping you (touching up was the phrase used in the post you quoted) You might tell you partner about harassment for all sorts of reasons. The big one that springs to mind is support.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Aug 22, 2013)

On the subject of men stepping in, tbh I wouldn't want my husband to step in unless it was really serious, and even then I think I'd rather him gather further help than step in himself if alone. But that's probably more to do with being worried he'd potentially get a beating for it and/or just wanting the unpleasantness to be over asap rather than wanting to stand up for myself. It's sad, but over the years I've learnt it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> On the subject of men stepping in, tbh I wouldn't want my husband to step in unless it was really serious, and even then I think I'd rather him gather further help than step in himself if alone. But that's probably more to do with being worried he'd potentially get a beating for it and/or just wanting the unpleasantness to be over asap rather than wanting to stand up for myself. It's sad, but over the years *I've learnt it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse*


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Aug 22, 2013)

I do feel that post is a bit of a sisterhood failure there


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Okay, I have no idea why men do this, I've even worked with some that do it.  but I *think* they see it as a form of compliment giving rather than bullying. It's deluded male bonding - we like the ladies don't we? Let's have a bullshit feedback loop proving how manly we are to ourselves.
> 
> Yes she mentioned it in passing, a few times. Then on this one particular night I was pissed and she just got back so I went out to confront them. Fucking stupid in hindsight but they were shocked (thank fuck) that someone was confronting them over it.


 

See, and sorry to use this as a v specific example, there's also stuff about why they deferred to you. Like men talking over women and ignoring them when the bf is there etc and so on. All that stuff.


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> On the subject of men stepping in, tbh I wouldn't want my husband to step in unless it was really serious, and even then I think I'd rather him gather further help than step in himself if alone. But that's probably more to do with being worried he'd potentially get a beating for it and/or just wanting the unpleasantness to be over asap rather than wanting to stand up for myself. It's sad, but over the years I've learnt it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse


 

It's not right OBVS but that's the 'best' way to 'deal' with it all. I guess. I mean, I think there's been plenty of posts saying the same kind of thing.


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

The ones I worked with was when I was still in construction and working at Blackfriars. We all used to pick up a sandwich and go and eat dinner down by the Thames. Lots of women would walk on the riverside and be subjected to "awwwwiiight daaawwwwlin"  which obviously wasn't appreciated. I found it a bit embarrasing so would sit somewhere where it looked like I wasn't with them, which I wasn't really.


----------



## silverfish (Aug 22, 2013)

toggle said:


> I know what response I would prefer. I don't however happen to have a telepathic awareness of what your partner might want. If you had considered the post you were replying to slightly more carefully, you would be well aware that I was not in favor of any kind of definition of what was or was not a 'proper' response by individuals facing harassment. That many of us have an internalised idea of what the proper response should be is a part of the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> so try asking her.


 
Sorry I didn't consider your post more carefully, I was reflecting on my own internalised idea of what I perceive my proper response should be and how I have run through the same process myself and felt I've let people down

Very selfish of me I know

My partner was "groped" while having a massage in a swanky hotel spa in india. She barely told me, when she did she played it down massively it only came out later how badly effected she was by it. At the time I wanted to at least confront the guy but she said it was nothing, then I suggested a formal complaint and she talked me out of it. In reality she was really upset. I felt in hindsight I let her down and I'm conflicted having gone with her down playing of it rather than just doing what I felt personally was the right thing to do.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Aug 22, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> I do feel that post is a bit of a sisterhood failure there


 
What's the alternative? Put yourself and your fella a in danger?


----------



## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> See, and sorry to use this as a v specific example, there's also stuff about why they deferred to you. Like men talking over women and ignoring them when the bf is there etc and so on. All that stuff.



Well the woman in question didn't confront them, she just endured it. Her boyfriend didn't do anything. And I didn't feel like I was protecting a woman's honour, I was looking out for a mate. I'd have done the same if a bloke mate was getting crap and I have. I can't speak for the twats doing it, obvs.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Aug 22, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> What's the alternative? Put yourself and your fella a in danger?


Well exactly 

Still, I would like to be like the little girl in Kiss Ass and just pwn them all


----------



## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> snip>> it's best to just scuttle away as quickly as possible rather than make a fuss, because it just makes things worse


It's funny isn't it... I tend to shout back or try and slap people without thinking of the consequences, (and on two occasions have had to be rescued from those consequences by a passing male ) but still have those feelings of being shaken up, powerless and somehow dirty or to blame.  But also really, really angry- the guy who kerb crawled me and said foul, foul things about what he wanted to do to me, I wanted to kill him.  I mean really, really hurt, maim then kill him- I could almost visualise my fingernails in his eyeballs*.  I was shaking afterwards I was so angry- but also completely powerless, being v v pregnant, him being in the car etc.  It was a really horrible feeling.  But I didn't say anything for a few hours when I got home and then told the story in a 'oh it was horrible, why do people do this sort of thing?' way, rather than say how I really felt. I don't know who I was protecting- the Northerner, me from examining my feelings?  No idea.  But beyond vile.

(*what I actually did was laugh and tell him to run along little boy, as it was the most insulting thing I could think of to do)


----------



## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

silverfish said:


> Sorry I didn't consider your post more carefully, I was reflecting on my own internalised idea of what I perceive my proper response should be and how I have run through the same process myself and felt I've let people down
> 
> Very selfish of me I know
> 
> My partner was "groped" while having a massage in a swanky hotel spa in india. She barely told me, when she did she played it down massively it only came out later how badly effected she was by it. At the time I wanted to at least confront the guy but she said it was nothing, then I suggested a formal complaint and she talked me out of it. In reality she was really upset. I felt in hindsight I let her down and I'm conflicted having gone with her down playing of it rather than just doing what I felt personally was the right thing to do.


 

The only twat in this scenario is the groper but see how the gropee and the gropee's partner are the ones wrestling with it all. Shit's fucked up, man.


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## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> The only twat in this scenario is the groper but see how the gropee and the gropee's partner are the ones wrestling with it all. Shit's fucked up, man.


yes, this


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 22, 2013)

Manter said:


> It's funny isn't it... I tend to shout back or try and slap people without thinking of the consequences, (and on two occasions have had to be rescued from those consequences by a passing male ) but still have those feelings of being shaken up, powerless and somehow dirty or to blame. But also really, really angry- the guy who kerb crawled me and said foul, foul things about what he wanted to do to me, I wanted to kill him. I mean really, really hurt, maim then kill him- I could almost visualise my fingernails in his eyeballs*. I was shaking afterwards I was so angry- but also completely powerless, being v v pregnant, him being in the car etc. It was a really horrible feeling. But I didn't say anything for a few hours when I got home and then told the story in a 'oh it was horrible, why do people do this sort of thing?' way, rather than say how I really felt. I don't know who I was protecting- the Northerner, me from examining my feelings? No idea. But beyond vile.
> 
> (*what I actually did was laugh and tell him to run along little boy, as it was the most insulting thing I could think of to do)


 It's the degree of, I dunno, would internalisation be the right word?, which is what in part makes these experiences so destructive.


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## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> It's the degree of, I dunno, would internalisation be the right word?, which is what in part makes these experiences so destructive.


completely agree.  And even having written that I can feel some of the 'he deserves to suffer and die and why didn't I respond differently' reactions bubbling up.  It was about 4 weeks ago now, I think, but it still has the power to make me angry and upset....


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## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> The only twat in this scenario is the groper but see how the gropee and the gropee's partner are the ones wrestling with it all. Shit's fucked up, man.



Well yes, but that doesn't account for timid men and assertive women. But obviously gender inequality is humming away in the background.


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## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Well yes, but that doesn't account for timid men and assertive women. But obviously gender inequality is humming away in the background.


you can be as assertive as you like but if you are in just a towel and paper knickers expecting a massage and a bloke has a rummage, he is in a position of power over you.  You are physically and psychologically vulnerable, and he has taken advantage of that


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## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

Manter said:


> you can be as assertive as you like but if you are in just a towel and paper knickers expecting a massage and a bloke has a rummage, he is in a position of power over you.  You are physically and psychologically vulnerable, and he has taken advantage of that



Well yes, quite. Can't argue with that.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 22, 2013)

Manter said:


> you can be as assertive as you like but if you are in just a towel and paper knickers expecting a massage and a bloke has a rummage, he is in a position of power over you. You are physically and psychologically vulnerable, and he has taken advantage of that


I feel a bit wrong at "liking' this given the situation described, so I'm going to state my complete agreement in the old fashioned quoting style!


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## 5t3IIa (Aug 22, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Well yes, but that doesn't account for timid men and assertive women. But obviously gender inequality is humming away in the background.


 

I don't understand what you mean?


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## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

5t3IIa said:


> I don't understand what you mean?



Well in the context of the example I gave, its difficult to know how they would have reacted if she had confronted them as she didn't confront them. So you saying "they listened to the man but not the woman" is confusing as we both acted in different ways. Sorry if not making sense.


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## toggle (Aug 22, 2013)

silverfish said:


> Sorry I didn't consider your post more carefully, I was reflecting on my own internalised idea of what I perceive my proper response should be and how I have run through the same process myself and felt I've let people down
> 
> Very selfish of me I know
> 
> My partner was "groped" while having a massage in a swanky hotel spa in india. She barely told me, when she did she played it down massively it only came out later how badly effected she was by it. At the time I wanted to at least confront the guy but she said it was nothing, then I suggested a formal complaint and she talked me out of it. In reality she was really upset. I felt in hindsight I let her down and I'm conflicted having gone with her down playing of it rather than just doing what I felt personally was the right thing to do.


 
but why do you think that would have been the right thing to do?

the protective thing is the idealised male response? be a proper man and protect your woman, at the very least make that bastard know he has insulted _your_ woman. Put him in his place? Make him pay?

I personally would feel that a bloke that insisted on a confrontation that I didn't feel was the right option was making it about him, about the insult to HIS woman, his property, rather than listening to what I wanted and supporting me, therefore making his response about what I needed. but you listened and your response to the assault on your partner was about the wishes and needs of your partner rather than playing what you believe is your assigned gender role. There isn't a way to make that kind of situation right, but making your response about you would have made it worse.

so you chose to take the role your partner wanted rather than play the gender role assigned to you by a patriarchal code? IMO, good call.

but being upset you couldn't protect someone you care about from danger dosen't make you selfish, it makes you human. I tend to ignore or try to give the non confrontational acceptable responses to a threat to me. threat to my kids or partner, and it feels a lot different. I've gone off all mama bear before now.


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## Manter (Aug 22, 2013)

toggle said:


> but why do you think that would have been the right thing to do?
> 
> the protective thing is the idealised male response? be a proper man and protect your woman, at the very least make that bastard know he has insulted _your_ woman. Put him in his place? Make him pay?
> 
> ...


 
By 'right' silverfish may simply have meant not letting him get away with it- it may be nothing to do with ownership or a patriarchal code or whatever: but men who grope women are (IMO) often relying on the fact she won't report it.  If the groper had been reported, he may well have lost his job, or at the very least have been read the riot act by the hotel management and therefore been discouraged from doing it again.  By letting him get away with it he has a degree of reassurance that his reading of the situation- that he can grope women and get away with it- is the correct one and he may do more or worse.

However, I do understand that you can't make women report assault, it isn't their fault if the perp they don't report goes on to commit more offences etc- I get all that.  But I can see the conflict I would feel in Silverfish's position, and I don't think it is necessarily about ownership or patriarchy


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## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

This is the side of feminism that I can't get my head round. That men who help out a female pal are equally part of the problem as decided by people who werent actually there to make that judgment.


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## toggle (Aug 22, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> This is the side of feminism that I can't get my head round. That men who help out a female pal are equally part of the problem as decided by people who werent actually there to make that judgment.


 
help out? nope.that's not quite the issue.


the thing that is part of the problem is when it's not so much helping out as making it all about them, and there are some blokes that will turn a threat/insult/etc to a woman as a challenge to their masculinity and insist on an angry confrontation that she has to then calm him down out of. it turns something that should have been about him helping her to her supporting him emotionally. huge difference.

my interpretation was that silverfish was conflicted between having been taught that the man should confront and protect and his actual response which was to follow her wishes.


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 22, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> This is the side of feminism that I can't get my head round. That men who help out a female pal are equally part of the problem as decided by people who werent actually there to make that judgment.


 
It's called nuance and context.

If we lived in an equal world, then people helping other people would just be a perfectly nice thing to do. But we don't. There can be the implication that women's problems can only be solved by men. That women can't stand up for themselves and need men to do it for them. That a man has the right to complain about the behaviour of others towards 'his woman' when the woman in question doesn't.

Understanding the instances where this happens and understanding that the dynamics can be very complicated and problematic doesn't mean that the whole of 'feminism' thinks that men can't stand up for women. Friends helping out friends is great. And there's a lot to be said about men challenging sexism in ways that women can't (wrt the idea of peer pressure and social group dynamics - men taking the lead from other men. While that's a sad indictment of the fact that a woman saying 'don't treat me like shit' isn't enough, it's an honest evaluation that some boys and men might learn certain types of behaviour from other boys and men). But you have to be aware of the patriarchal norm, a man and his woman. Really, the important thing is that we should be aiming for women to be able to challenge sexist and harassing behaviour without the need for a man to do so for them. That a woman saying "no" should be taken just as seriously as a man doing so on her behalf. It's not about men not being able to stick up for women. It's about women being allowed to stick up for themselves.


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## Winot (Aug 22, 2013)

At the risk of a derail, what are people's experience of unwanted attention given to children? I don't mean sexual, I mean the sort of clucking/touching that people think is their right to lavish on kids without asking their permission? 

Is this gender-linked? I have 2 girls (8 and 6) so don't know whether young boys get it too. My eldest hates it - and tbh I've only noticed how much (some of) society thinks of kids as fair game for this since I've had kids myself.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 22, 2013)

Fwiw I thought silverfish was pretty reasonably expressing the conflict between being angry on behalf of someone you love, knowing that somebody has harmed them and feeling hatred towards the aggressor, but also knowing that that immediate intemperate response isn't what is going to be appropriate.


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## shygirl (Aug 22, 2013)

One reason I never tell guys about other men 'coming on' is because I'm terrified of violence up close.  The number of times I've intervened in street fights is mad, how I've never been decked for it I'll never know.   Broke up a gang fight on Gresham Rd a couple of months ago, just can't bear to see people hurting eachother.  I think it comes from being traumatised by the sight of a group of young men attacking a kid when I was about 10, his sister was screaming hysterically for someone to help.  The other reason is simply that I prefer to deal with my own stuff.  I don't however, condemn any girl or woman who does ask for help from her fella.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

toggle said:


> help out? nope.that's not quite the issue.
> 
> 
> the thing that is part of the problem is when it's not so much helping out as making it all about them, and there are some blokes that will turn a threat/insult/etc to a woman as a challenge to their masculinity and insist on an angry confrontation that she has to then calm him down out of. it turns something that should have been about him helping her to her supporting him emotionally. huge difference.
> ...



Fair dos.


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## Citizen66 (Aug 22, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> It's called nuance and context.
> 
> If we lived in an equal world, then people helping other people would just be a perfectly nice thing to do. But we don't. There can be the implication that women's problems can only be solved by men. That women can't stand up for themselves and need men to do it for them. That a man has the right to complain about the behaviour of others towards 'his woman' when the woman in question doesn't.
> 
> Understanding the instances where this happens and understanding that the dynamics can be very complicated and problematic doesn't mean that the whole of 'feminism' thinks that men can't stand up for women. Friends helping out friends is great. And there's a lot to be said about men challenging sexism in ways that women can't (wrt the idea of peer pressure and social group dynamics - men taking the lead from other men. While that's a sad indictment of the fact that a woman saying 'don't treat me like shit' isn't enough, it's an honest evaluation that some boys and men might learn certain types of behaviour from other boys and men). But you have to be aware of the patriarchal norm, a man and his woman. Really, the important thing is that we should be aiming for women to be able to challenge sexist and harassing behaviour without the need for a man to do so for them. That a woman saying "no" should be taken just as seriously as a man doing so on her behalf. It's not about men not being able to stick up for women. It's about women being allowed to stick up for themselves.



Again, fair enough. But I have seen in the past that ANY help from a man can be regarded as some kind of affront to the cause. Like you say though, it's nuanced.


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## shygirl (Aug 22, 2013)

Winot said:


> At the risk of a derail, what are people's experience of unwanted attention given to children? I don't mean sexual, I mean the sort of clucking/touching that people think is their right to lavish on kids without asking their permission?
> 
> Is this gender-linked? I have 2 girls (8 and 6) so don't know whether young boys get it too. My eldest hates it - and tbh I've only noticed how much (some of) society thinks of kids as fair game for this since I've had kids myself.


 
That's an interesting one.  I grew up in a working class community in Cardiff, where this kind of affection is openly expressed, perhaps less so now. Kind of, 'Aw, isn't he lovely', 'ooh, what a sweet child', etc.  Touching would usually be a ruffling of hair or pinch of the cheek.  For me, the touching is an intrusion as children haven't given their permission for this to happen and are more or less powerless to stop it.  And usually don't like it.   I guess the same, in theory, should go for chatting to or making comments about children, but I would hate to not be able to engage in a spontaneous way to children, because they are so open and engaging.  I did/do really notice that the middle-classes, particularly in South East England, don't do this much, and that some seem disapproving of such behaviour.   I used to like it when other people spoke to my son or paid him compliments.


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## idumea (Aug 22, 2013)

.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2013)

MrsDarlingsKiss said:


> I don't think that anyone on here is saying that sexual street harassment is the sole preserve of black men.The apologist posters have talked about the black community as if it's one homogenous group, quite the opposite of singling out. Many posters such as AS, mation and Violent panda have taken issue with that generalisation.
> 
> What is clear to me from my experience and this discussion is that sexual street harassment is done by men from all different backgrounds and not just the black ones.


 
My mum reckons that as a teen in the mid '50s, walking along Fulham Palace Rd or Putney High Street during lunch hour was running a gauntlet of middle-class male chauvinists who felt entitled to proposition you, whereas catcalling and wolf-whistles from building sites wasn't something she noticed happening with much prevalence until the '70s. So the behaviours seem persistent, cross class and ethnic boundaries and be a "male thing" related closely to the institutional sexism and gender bias facilitated by patriarchy.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2013)

Agent Sparrow said:


> It's the degree of, I dunno, would internalisation be the right word?, which is what in part makes these experiences so destructive.


 
Yes, it's internalisation.
It's sad, because it's part and parcel of the asymmetry of power between genders that fuels so many problems, social and personal.  Because male power is for all intents and purposes hegemonic, in that the imbalance in power exists *in spite of* putative equality laws, anyone who isn't male, who has less power, is made to feel that they transgress "the norm", and that doing so, in ANY way, even being angered by the misuse of male power against you as an individual, is a personal failing on your part, rather than a failure of responsibility, courtesy and humanity on their part.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> This is the side of feminism that I can't get my head round. That men who help out a female pal are equally part of the problem as decided by people who werent actually there to make that judgment.


 
I wouldn't say "are", but I'd definitely accept "are" being replaced by "can be", because "the problem" won't go away if it is mostly based around male "protectors" confronting male "harrassers", however honourable, kind and concerned the protector is.  It really needs to be men getting the message from women.

And I speak as someone who was guilty several times of "protecting" female workmates and unknown female drinkers from harrassers when having after-work drinks in the pubs around Moorgate. I eventually learned that a woman asking a bloke what he'd do if his mum or wife was spoken to like they had been was more effective than inviting someone outside for a row. 
I did reserve the right to still invite gropers out for a slap, though.


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## leanderman (Aug 23, 2013)

Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.


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## boohoo (Aug 23, 2013)

I don't think women tend to talk to their partners about the harassment. As someone mentioned before you just get so use to it, that you don't tend to pass comment on it unless it's particularly unpleasant.


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## toggle (Aug 23, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.


 
either that or she's so used to low level crap that it's background noise to her now and not unusual enough to mention.


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## weepiper (Aug 23, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.


 

It's not about whether the woman is attractive or not.


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## kittyP (Aug 23, 2013)

weepiper said:
			
		

> It's not about whether the woman is attractive or not.



This.


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## kittyP (Aug 23, 2013)

toggle said:
			
		

> either that or she's so used to low level crap that it's background noise to her now and not unusual enough to mention.



Or like others have said, she might not want to put you in a position where you feel you have to defend her honour. 
I admit that would be difficult to ask unless it's current.


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## leanderman (Aug 23, 2013)

weepiper said:


> It's not about whether the woman is attractive or not.



The word beautiful was not meant to be taken literally, whether she is or not!


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## Citizen66 (Aug 23, 2013)

The reverse of this happens too as I've been subjected to it at work; although I didn't particularly feel threatened by it it was a bit wtf.


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## leanderman (Aug 23, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Or like others have said, she might not want to put you in a position where you feel you have to defend her honour.
> I admit that would be difficult to ask unless it's current.



Asked a 30-something friend today: she has had two approaches here in eight years. Once ludicrously mistaken for a prostitute by someone near St Matthew's church, the other 'complimented' by a teenager on Coldharbour Lane.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 24, 2013)

leanderman said:


> Can't work out what's worse: this sheer tidal wave of harassment, or that my beautiful wife has been targeted only once.


 
I bet you're quite resentful that you have a possession that's not being admired enough!


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## idumea (Aug 27, 2013)

boohoo said:


> I don't think women tend to talk to their partners about the harassment. As someone mentioned before you just get so use to it, that you don't tend to pass comment on it unless it's particularly unpleasant.


 

When I was younger I used to not talk about harassment at all, because I was embarrassed and it made me feel bad, and because I thought it would seem like I was somehow 'bragging'


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## Winot (Aug 30, 2013)

Article is up on Brixton Blog.


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## Kizmet (Aug 30, 2013)

Its a good article but I would have liked to have seen the author make some suggestions on how to put an end to sexual street harassment.

Once you have recognised that this is a serious problem that is the next most important question.


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## shygirl (Aug 30, 2013)

I think its a very good article.  The author has incorporated a lot of what was posted on here last week, and, apart from the title (not hers, apparently), has done an excellent job of NOT localising the issue in the ways that I feared. Well done, S A Villarano.

In terms of tackling it in our area (Lambeth), I think the following would be useful:

live discussions on pirate radio stations;
meet with faith groups to ask that the issue be raised in religious sermons;
asking pubs and clubs to display the Lambeth DV/sexual harrassment awareness posters (one shown on the blog);
meet with various political parties to ask for the issues to be raised at meetings;
raise it/give a talk at a future Lambeth Community Police Consultative Group meeting to obtain police and community views on the matter;
More healthy relationships work in schools and youth clubs;
Ask shops/business/coffee bars to display posters - create some of kind of incentive, we'll add your name to a list of businesses that oppose sexual harrassent.
I would be happy to help with some of the above.  Anyone else up for it?


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## Vintage Paw (Aug 30, 2013)

shygirl said:


> I think its a very good article. The author has incorporated a lot of what was posted on here last week, and, apart from the title (not hers, apparently), has done an excellent job of NOT localising the issue in the ways that I feared. Well done, S A Villarano.
> 
> In terms of tackling it in our area (Lambeth), I think the following would be useful:
> 
> ...


 
I agree, very good article. It covered a lot of what was said here very thoughtfully.

And I also agree that what is important is a way forward. Just identifying the problem is a good first step, but useless if everything ends at that point. I'm not a Brixtonite (nor a Londoner) so I'm afraid I can't help with anything you do locally, but I wish you the best of luck if you do start something as a result of this discussion and article. It would be useful to see things like this happening elsewhere as well.


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## Gramsci (Aug 31, 2013)

Winot said:


> Article is up on Brixton Blog.


 
Pleasant surprise that @S A Villarino has credited Urban at the top of the article.

 I agree with posters above it is a good article.


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## Frooty Tooty (Sep 1, 2013)

I get it everyday and, like you previously mentioned, it seems to be regardless of the time and/or what I'm wearing. I must say, I have never had anyone be aggressive towards me. The comments are often rude and I find them offensive, but it's not done with malice. I find the shop staff on Coldharbour Lane particularly bad; making comments in English, then loudly discussing you in another language with much amusement on their part.


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 3, 2013)

Frooty Tooty said:


> I find the shop staff on Coldharbour Lane particularly bad; making comments in English, then loudly discussing you in another language with much amusement on their part.


Any particular shop you want to mention?


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## Greebo (Sep 4, 2013)

Frooty Tooty said:


> <snip>I find the shop staff on Coldharbour Lane particularly bad; making comments in English, then loudly discussing you in another language with much amusement on their part.


If they're talking in another language, how do you know they're discussing you instead of a mother in law, their son's latest girlfriend, or the football results etc?


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## Badgers (Sep 4, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> Any particular shop you want to mention?



All of the johnny foreigners ones


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## shygirl (Sep 4, 2013)

Greebo said:


> If they're talking in another language, how do you know they're discussing you instead of a mother in law, their son's latest girlfriend, or the football results etc?



Because sometimes is blatantly obvious.  It's rather annoying when you know someone is discussing you right in front of you.


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## girasol (Sep 4, 2013)

shygirl said:


> Because sometimes is blatantly obvious.  It's rather annoying when you know someone is discussing you right in front of you.



You would know, especially if they continued looking at you, it would be very likely that they were continuing to do it, and in another language for the specific purpose that you don't know what they are saying, but you know it's about you.  Shitty thing to do.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2013)

Greebo said:


> If they're talking in another language, how do you know they're discussing you instead of a mother in law, their son's latest girlfriend, or the football results etc?



The large blue donkey on their shoulder tells them so.


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## Rushy (Sep 4, 2013)

girasol said:


> You would know, especially if they continued looking at you, it would be very likely that they were continuing to do it, and in another language for the specific purpose that you don't know what they are saying, but you know it's about you.  Shitty thing to do.


A spaniard did that to me last weekend in Haggerston. Unfortunately for them I'm fluent in Spanish. Idiota.

(As I presume are you?)


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## girasol (Sep 4, 2013)

Rushy said:


> A spaniard did that to me last weekend in Haggerston. Unfortunately for them I'm fluent in Spanish. Idiota.
> 
> (As I presume are you?)



Spanish was the second language I learned, English was the third.  I'm a lot more fluent in English, and don't understand a word of fast Spanish


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## kittyP (Sep 4, 2013)

Where is the article?


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## Manter (Sep 4, 2013)

Winot said:


> Article is up on Brixton Blog.


kittyP


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## Rushy (Sep 4, 2013)

girasol said:


> Spanish was the second language I learned, English was the third.  I'm a lot more fluent in English, and don't understand a word of fast Spanish


Spanish was my second too. But I went to Spanish schools for a few years so it was better than my english for a while. Not any more, mind you! But good enough to respond with some antiquarian playground taunts.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 12, 2013)

Hey, Baby, I’m Terrified Of My Looming Mortality!


> Whoa-ho-ho! Look at that piece of work coming up Fifth! Slow down, baby. Let me get a good look at you. Why don’t you try me on for size, huh? Check me out. I’m 200 pounds of pure solid man, I’m desperately lonely, and I’m fearful of the mortality that I, like every one of us, inevitably faces!


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## shygirl (Oct 10, 2013)

This thing is happening in Brixton on Saturday.  We could explore a local response to a world-wide issue of sexual harassment on road!

"To recap: this challenge at Made in Lambeth is an opportunity for people active/concerned/working on community safety and anti-violence initiatives to come together with developers, designers and other creatives to develop ideas and an identity for a community-based ‘network’ to work with us on producing a new Preventing Serious Violence Strategy for Lambeth.
It’s a two day challenge, over Saturday and Sunday 12/13 October (10 to 5, with breakfast offered at 9am), but participants can come for one day only. Pre-booking is recommended (at http://madein.lambeth.coop/made-in-lambeth-events), but is not mandatory – feel free to turn up on the day (though around 10am if possible). Brixton pounds are provided to buy lunch so we can put some cash back into the local economy.
*Saturday* – *ideas* day – developing the concept and identity of an ‘Anti-Violence Network’ – what’s it for? How does it work? What’s the Mission Statement? Guiding principles; relationships with key stakeholders etc. It would also be good to give it a name!"


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## ska invita (Oct 12, 2013)

Only just seen this thread - just to add about a decade ago we considered moving to Brixton as had friends in the area (who have since left as it goes - priced out), but one of the main reasons we didn't was becasue of sexual harassment and not wanting to have to deal with it, or the potential expectation of it, on a day to day. This was based on experiences being out in Brixton , most often at nights, visiting friends and so on. Its definitely not unique to Brixton, but we felt it would add unnecessary stress to day to day life. Didnt move to Surrey as has been suggested, but stuck to our mellower corner of SE London


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