# The Football Lads Alliance



## editor (Jul 3, 2017)

It's been mentioned in the EDL thread but I thought it was worth a thread of its own in response to this post



> But while the attacks in Manchester, Westminster and London Bridge were highlighted on the 24 June protest, there was little mention of the terrorist attack at Finsbury Park mosque (a stones’ throw away from Arsenal’s Emirates stadium).
> 
> There was also no mention one year on of the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox, who died at the hands of a far right extremist, Thomas Mair, who shouted “Britain First” as he killed her.
> 
> Any movement that was serious about opposing extremism would surely have invited a Muslim fan to speak and represent their opposition to the terrorism of the far right and ISIS.





> Firstly is John Meighan the best person to head up a movement that claims that its motto is “no violence”? He was banned from every ground in the UK for three years for football related violence.
> 
> But whatever Meighan’s motivations for organising the FLA march some of those who were prominent at the event have a clear political agenda and definitely have links to racist, anti-Muslim, far right groups whatever the Public Relations.
> 
> ...



Who are the Football Lads Alliance (FLA)? - Stand Up To Racism


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## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2017)

editor said:


> It's been mentioned in the EDL thread but I thought it was worth a thread of its own in response to this post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i thought this might be the case, so not entirely surprised.


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## ffsear (Jul 3, 2017)

What date does the season start again?


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## IC3D (Jul 3, 2017)

That article is more reaching than Diego Maradona. Perhaps not but at best it raises a few question marks and at worse it's clutching at straws.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2017)

IC3D said:


> That article is more reaching than Diego Maradona. Perhaps not but at best it raises a few question marks and at worse it's clutching at straws.


The fact that they called it Football *Lads *probably hints at the kind of inclusiveness and modern thinking they're after.


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## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2017)

IC3D said:


> That article is more reaching than Diego Maradona. Perhaps not but at best it raises a few question marks and at worse it's clutching at straws.


Isn't the site it's posted on an SWP front? The problem with articles like this is that they don't actually deal with the issue that people are worried about it . It's fine to out the far right but unless the left comes up with an alternative it will be the far right that will try and get its hands on the issue despite the organisers of the demos efforts .


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## IC3D (Jul 3, 2017)

It's that sort of thing I didnt like editor . It comes across a petty I think, like there's one way to oragnise a march we weren't invited so we're against you. The article is lacking any real meat and goes on a whatabouterry crusade. I don't know how they'll pan out but I found it a bit annoying.

ETA: I didn't know it was SWP when I wrote that either


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## ffsear (Jul 3, 2017)

Here's an even better one.....

"Up to 5,000 assorted Islamophobes, racists and fascists marched through central London today, mobilised by a rightwing coalition of football hooligan firms called the Football Lads Alliance."



A second warning for antifascists: Football Lads Alliance puts thousands on the streets


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## sealion (Jul 3, 2017)

Report and analysis of FLA demo in London, Saturday 24th June


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## editor (Jul 3, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Here's an even better one.....
> 
> "Up to 5,000 assorted Islamophobes, racists and fascists marched through central London today, mobilised by a rightwing coalition of football hooligan firms called the Football Lads Alliance."
> 
> ...


This comment seems to ring true. Why weren't ordinary football supporters' groups invited? 


> The reason they are called “football lads” is because they are from hooligan firms. That’s what the term means – it is what the hoolies like to call themselves.
> 
> “Football lads” means something quite different to “football fans” or “football supporters”. The fact they are hooligan firms is also why they use a closed, secret facebook group to organise – no one who wanted to get ordinary football fans together would need that secrecy.


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## ffsear (Jul 3, 2017)

editor said:


> This comment seems to ring true. Why weren't ordinary football supporters' groups invited?



Yea well no doubt it could have been better organised. And the name isn't exactly the work of Shakespeare.   But i do think the overall intention was of good nature.  They just don't know how to work the media.  But fuck the media I say.


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## editor (Jul 3, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Yea well no doubt it could have been better organised. And the name isn't exactly the work of Shakespeare.   But i do think the overall intention was of good nature.  They just don't know how to work the media.  But fuck the media I say.


I'm a football fan and I've been directly involved in football campaigning and from where I'm sitting something doesn't sit right with this lot.

"Football Lads" FFS. This is 2017, not 1997.


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## ffsear (Jul 3, 2017)

editor said:


> I'm a football fan and I've been directly involved in football campaigning and from where I'm sitting something doesn't sit right with this lot.
> 
> "Football Lads" FFS. This is 2017, not 1997.




Well I wasn't there,  but I like to keep an open mind about things


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## editor (Jul 3, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Well I wasn't there,  but I like to keep an open mind about things


Me too, and that's why I pay attention to the details and try to find out more. Like how they've decided to name themselves. I won't be going on any of their marches.


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## editor (Jul 4, 2017)

Interesting piece here: 
Report and analysis of FLA demo in London, Saturday 24th June


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## sealion (Jul 4, 2017)

Football barmies, lads and firms all have a different meaning in my experience. Barmies will wear club colours bang a drum and shake hands with an opposing supporter and avoid trouble. Lads wear the latest clobber have a sing song and follow a culture and some occasionly get into a bit of bother if it comes about. Firms are tight groups of mates that have a an organised punch ups with other firms often no where near the stadium, barmies or normal match goers.
Any hooligan that knows the score won't use facebook or any other form of social media to arrange a meet. The football intelligence unit are all over it looking to stay a step ahead of the firms.


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## sealion (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> Interesting piece here:
> Report and analysis of FLA demo in London, Saturday 24th June


Posted up thread.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 4, 2017)

Barmies? I've literally never heard that used about anyone connected with football.


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## sealion (Jul 4, 2017)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Barmies? I've literally never heard that used about anyone connected with football.


Very much like the barmy army that follows the England cricket team. Drum banging trumpet playing pissed up harmless fans.


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## editor (Jul 4, 2017)

sealion said:


> Very much like the barmy army that follows the England cricket team. Drum banging trumpet playing pissed up harmless fans.


I'm trying not to judge on appearance alone, but from what I've seen of the people on that march, the majority seem to fit a very narrow demographic. _Geezahs_, you might say.


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Here's an even better one.....
> 
> "Up to 5,000 assorted Islamophobes, racists and fascists marched through central London today, mobilised by a rightwing coalition of football hooligan firms called the Football Lads Alliance."
> 
> ...


Written by comrade delta nontheless 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> I'm trying not to judge on appearance alone, but from what I've seen of the people on that march, the majority seem to fit a very narrow demographic. _Geezahs_, you might say.


Which is exactly what the march was .. it was organised by football hooligans for football hooligans .. hence being called Football Lads Alliance .. I don't understand the shock here that a march organised by hooligans for hooligans was attended by hooligans 

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## sealion (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> I'm trying not to judge on appearance alone, but from what I've seen of the people on that march, the majority seem to fit a very narrow demographic. _Geezahs_, you might say.


Old and young. Some of the geezahs  are in there sixties and way past it i would imagine.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2017)

Do people have a problem with Clerical Fascists being protested against, or just if it's by the wrong sort of protester?


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## editor (Jul 4, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do people have a problem with Clerical Fascists being protested against, or just if it's by the wrong sort of protester?


Lads. It's all about the lads. Fuck the families, the elderly, the kids and the women. They're the wrong kind of football fan for this movement. This is for the lads only.


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> Lads. It's all about the lads. Fuck the families, the elderly, the kids and the women. They're the wrong kind of football fan for this movement. This is for the lads only.


It was hooligans .. organised by and for hooligans.. next you'll be wanting them to invite the women and children for their next fight at a service station against each other !!! How about someone organises a demonstration against the extremists that can be a family affair ? That can really show a sense of community against these attacks.. (by ALL extremist fascist nutcases) instead of bemoaning when a group of hooligans do it .. yes this may come to light about being organised by the right but at the moment there's no evidence of that  but still those on the left can't help tut and finger wag.. I'd support whole heartedly support an initiative from the left against extremism and terrorist attacks but everyone's too scared because you'll instantly have the usual suspects denounce it as racist 

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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> Lads. It's all about the lads. Fuck the families, the elderly, the kids and the women. They're the wrong kind of football fan for this movement. This is for the lads only.



I'm fairly certain most Antifa groups organise through closed channels and aren't open to kids and families either.


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## editor (Jul 4, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm fairly certain most Antifa groups organise through closed channels and aren't open to kids and families either.


How many of them have claimed to represent football fans?


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> How many of them have claimed to represent football fans?


No one on this march is claiming to represent football fans are they ? It is what it says on the tin .. there may or may not be right wing elements behind it .. there's no cast iron evidence to say that there is at the moment.. it's never been advertised as a thing for all football fans .. it's a hooligan thing .. I don't understand why you are failing to acknowledge this?? 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Jon-of-arc (Jul 4, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk



Dude, can you turn that off? Quite interested in this thread, but that is very distracting. 

I don't know how to do it, but there is a way. Thanks in advance.


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Dude, can you turn that off? Quite interested in this thread, but that is very distracting.
> 
> I don't know how to do it, but there is a way. Thanks in advance.


Turn what off ?


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

Jon-of-arc said:


> Dude, can you turn that off? Quite interested in this thread, but that is very distracting.
> 
> I don't know how to do it, but there is a way. Thanks in advance.


Oh just figured out how to


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## sealion (Jul 4, 2017)

editor said:


> Lads. It's all about the lads. Fuck the families, the elderly, the kids and the women They're the wrong kind of football fan for this movement. This is for the lads only.


I wouldn't bring my kids , partner or an oap to a march or protest when there's a good chance of it getting hostile. The old bill treat football supporters like animals at the best of times never mind when they are kettling you around town.


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

Funnily enough the Spurs lads behind this are organising a Football Families march but I guess folks have failed to read or report that


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## sealion (Jul 4, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Funnily enough the Spurs lads behind this are organising a Football Families march
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


How dare they.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 4, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> No one on this march is claiming to represent football fans are they ? It is what it says on the tin .. there may or may not be right wing elements behind it .. there's no cast iron evidence to say that there is at the moment.. it's never been advertised as a thing for all football fans .. it's a hooligan thing .. I don't understand why you are failing to acknowledge this??
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


It's not exactly been advertised as a football hooligan march either; tbh it wasn't really advertised much beforehand anyway, and I've heard all sorts claiming things like it was "ordinary blokes standing up to extremists". Which is a bit duplicitous.


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## juice_terry (Jul 4, 2017)

It always has been a hooligans march .. hence organised in secrecy.. was never promoted outside of those circles


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## newbie (Jul 4, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> the issue that people are worried about


you said something similar on the other thread.  What makes you sure people are actually worried about terrorism?

I'm not detecting any great direct personal worry about terrorists, seems to me people just carry on as normal, nor demand for any sort of response from either the left or the right.



> unless the left comes up with an alternative it will be the far right that will try and get its hands on the issue


well yes, the right like to stoke up fear.  What is this alternative you think 'the left' should come up with?


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## ffsear (Jul 4, 2017)

sealion said:


> I wouldn't bring my kids , partner or an oap to a march or protest
> .




Or the Den


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## SE25 (Jul 4, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Funnily enough the Spurs lads behind this are organising a Football Families march but I guess folks have failed to read or report that



good luck to them honestly.

The name isn't really something that will get people like the typical urban75 poster (whatever that is) on side but as long as any far right nonsense is stopped and an effort is made to be inclusive (i.e. not a token right wing Sikh bloke to be wheeled out to say "look, we're not racist"...) I don't really see what's wrong with this. Pointless maybe but malevolent, I'm not sure


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## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> you said something similar on the other thread.  What makes you sure people are actually worried about terrorism?
> 
> I'm not detecting any great direct personal worry about terrorists, seems to me people just carry on as normal, nor demand for any sort of response from either the left or the right.
> 
> ...


Perhaps we live in different worlds Newbie ?


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Perhaps we live in different worlds Newbie ?


Perhaps we do (I'm in England for a start) but that doesn't answer any of the questions I asked you.

You're making the assertions that people are 'worried' about terrorism and that those worries are capable of political expression from either the left or the far right. 

I'll fully accept that the far right will try to ramp up and exploit fear and racism, but I'm doubtful about the premise that people are particularly 'worried' and seek understanding of why you think they are. 



> unless the left comes up with an alternative it will be the far right that will try and get its hands on the issue



What does that actually mean? Even if such worries are widespread, which I doubt, I don't really know what a left response might be. The far right can call for internment, armed police, crackdowns on being in possession of a brown skin or whatever authoritarian response they come up with.  What is this 'alternative' the left, who by and large reject that nonsense, supposed to provide?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> Perhaps we do (I'm in England for a start) but that doesn't answer any of the questions I asked you.
> 
> You're making the assertions that people are 'worried' about terrorism and that those worries are capable of political expression from either the left or the far right.
> 
> ...



The same as how the left respond to fascist cunts who have white skin? 
Why does being a brown skinned fascist elicit a shrug from your good self?


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The same as how the left respond to fascist cunts who have white skin?
> Why does being a brown skinned fascist elicit a shrug from your good self?


it doesn't.  Should the left response to the attack in Finsbury Park be any differently to that at London Bridge?  

Do you think people around you are 'worried' about terrorism in such a direct, personal way such that they crave a response from 'the left', failing which they'll look to the far right? 

These acts of terrorism are from individuals (or maybe cells) who hide their intentions.  What is it that the left is supposed to offer here?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> it doesn't.  Should the left response to the attack in Finsbury Park be any differently to that at London Bridge?
> 
> Do you think people around you are 'worried' about terrorism in such a direct, personal way such that they crave a response from 'the left', failing which they'll look to the far right?
> 
> These acts of terrorism are from individuals (or maybe cells) who hide their intentions.  What is it that the left is supposed to offer here?



The left will organise against 3 fascists and a dog in a pub car park in the pissing rain but have no position on cunts blowing kids up at pop concerts? Really?


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The left will organise against 3 fascists and a dog in a pub car park in the pissing rain but have no position on cunts blowing kids up at pop concerts? Really?


you're parodying rather than answering any questions, just as steps did.  It's not my assertion that people are worried or that the left has to provide an alternative.  I want some explanation of what that means.

It's not a question of 'position'.  Organising against fascists gathering in a car park or anywhere else is somewhat more clearcut than the left response to individuals who hire a van and buy a kitchen knife.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

I think you've got to seriously question the state of the movement if you're completely out of ideas of how to oppose Islamic Fascism whilst football hooligans are applying pressure to the govt as the voice of reason.


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I think you've got to seriously question the state of the movement if you're completely out of ideas of how to oppose Islamic Fascism whilst football hooligans are applying pressure to the govt as the voice of reason.


You're not answering the questions.

Like I said, there's an authoritarian right wing response to terrorism that by and large the left does not support.  Marching against attacks by people with brown not white skins for a start. So it's an obvious cause for them to organise around, under whatever guise.

As I'm clearly not clever enough to know what a specifically left response should be perhaps you or steps could educate me, and at the same time tell me whether you personally. as well as the population at large, are genuinely 'worried'?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> You're not answering the questions.
> 
> Like I said, there's an authoritarian right wing response to terrorism that by and large the left does not support.  Marching against attacks by people with brown not white skins for a start. So it's an obvious cause for them to organise around, under whatever guise.
> 
> As I'm clearly not clever enough to know what a specifically left response should be perhaps you or steps could educate me, and at the same time tell me whether you personally. as well as the population at large, are genuinely 'worried'?



I can't speak for the other sixty million odd souls but fascists attacking children as one of three attacks in the first six months of this year is a worrying development. What would you describe it as if not worrying?


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I can't speak for the other sixty million odd souls but fascists attacking children as one of three attacks in the first six months of this year is a worrying development. What would you describe it as if not worrying?


sick, unforgivable.  Which is how I'd describe the attacks in London, all of them, as well as Manchester. They're just words though, and you may be able to articulate better than I can. 

To my mind it's less of a worrying development than, say, the bombs in 2005 or throughout the Troubles.  Lone actors with the simplest methods are much less of a concern than a coordinated wave of bombings.  But I can't speak for the other 60m either.  steps claimed to be able to detect a worry in the population at large, and a demand for a political response from outside parliament.  I want to know how he knows that and what it means. 

Look, I'm not trying to downplay any of this, I'm simply questioning the dual assertions that people are worried and that there needs to be a response from the left.  I don't think they are particularly, and as I don't think the left is going to start demanding government crackdowns, I don't know what that response is supposed to be.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

You're not trying to downplay it yet compare it against other stuff from over a decade ago?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> sick, unforgivable.  Which is how I'd describe the attacks in London, all of them, as well as Manchester. They're just words though, and you may be able to articulate better than I can.
> 
> To my mind it's less of a worrying development than, say, the bombs in 2005 or throughout the Troubles.  Lone actors with the simplest methods are much less of a concern than a coordinated wave of bombings.  But I can't speak for the other 60m either.  steps claimed to be able to detect a worry in the population at large, and a demand for a political response from outside parliament.  I want to know how he knows that and what it means.
> 
> Look, I'm not trying to downplay any of this, I'm simply questioning the dual assertions that people are worried and that there needs to be a response from the left.  I don't think they are particularly, and as I don't think the left is going to start demanding government crackdowns, I don't know what that response is supposed to be.



I'm not saying the FLA's response is the best one to adopt but a) I seriously doubt all ten thousand of them are the far right and b) it's better than doing fuck all and shrugging about it.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm not saying the FLA's response is the best one to adopt but a) I seriously doubt all ten thousand of them are the far right and b) it's better than doing fuck all and shrugging about it.



You think these people are doing something positive?  I'd argue that doing fuck all its far more productive. I'd imagine people like IS are rubbing their hands in glee over stuff like this.


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm not saying the FLA's response is the best one to adopt but a) I seriously doubt all ten thousand of them are the far right and b) it's better than doing fuck all and shrugging about it.


Is it really?  a street march demanding the government takes authoritarian action strikes me as an obvious cover for the far right to organise around. How is that better than not having such a march?

Islamist and far-right terrorists both want us to be afraid, to cower, to worry.  Shrugging and getting on with life is what everyone around me appears to have done, why is that so wrong?  

I've got to go out for a bit but while I'm gone I'd be really pleased if steps or you could come up with any sort of idea of what the left could or should do to express its political position in ways which doesn't give cover for fascists to spout racist or authoritarian nonsense.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> You think these people are doing something positive?  I'd argue that doing fuck all its far more productive. I'd imagine people like IS are rubbing their hands in glee over stuff like this.



You say the same when the left organise against the far right then?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> Is it really?  a street march demanding the government takes authoritarian action strikes me as an obvious cover for the far right to organise around. How is that better than not having such a march?
> 
> Islamist and far-right terrorists both want us to be afraid, to cower, to worry.  Shrugging and getting on with life is what everyone around me appears to have done, why is that so wrong?
> 
> I've got to go out for a bit but while I'm gone I'd be really pleased if steps or you could come up with any sort of idea of what the left could or should do to express its political position in ways which doesn't give cover for fascists to spout racist or authoritarian nonsense.



So why don't you give the same advice to the left when they organise against the far right?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> Is it really?  a street march demanding the government takes authoritarian action strikes me as an obvious cover for the far right to organise around. How is that better than not having such a march?
> 
> Islamist and far-right terrorists both want us to be afraid, to cower, to worry.  Shrugging and getting on with life is what everyone around me appears to have done, why is that so wrong?
> 
> I've got to go out for a bit but while I'm gone I'd be really pleased if steps or you could come up with any sort of idea of what the left could or should do to express its political position in ways which doesn't give cover for fascists to spout racist or authoritarian nonsense.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You say the same when the left organise against the far right then?



No I think that's mostly pointless. The far right is mostly an irrelevence, but i guess it gives people something to do at the weekend. 

The difference is the aims of the slightly different organisations. One is act like twats and terrorise members of the community and drink some shit lager. The other is to divide communities and set us against each other.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> No I think that's mostly pointless. The far right is mostly an irrelevence, but i guess it gives people something to do at the weekend.
> 
> The difference is the aims of the slightly different organisations. One is act like twats and terrorise members of the community and drink some shit lager. The other is to divide communities and set us against each other.



So what would be the answer to that? You're three quarters of the way there so I'm sure you can manage it. You've mentioned the magic word twice.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jul 5, 2017)

Join a niche political movement obviously. 

There's plenty to be done, that's obvious. I'm just curious about why you think a bunch of thugs marching is doing anything productive?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2017)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> No I think that's mostly pointless. The far right is mostly an irrelevence, but i guess it gives people something to do at the weekend.
> 
> The difference is the aims of the slightly different organisations. One is act like twats and terrorise members of the community and drink some shit lager. The other is to divide communities and set us against each other.


yeh. if you include ukip in the far- or radical-right then for many years there have been far-right meps and a shedload of councillors, both bnp and ukip. tbh if it wasn't for infighting in the bnp - perhaps accelerated by the state, but perhaps not - the far-right now would be a far more prominent threat. i've pointed out before that one of the limiting factors on the far-right's political ambitions has been the lack not of the vote, but of suitable candidates, whereby they put up a load of oddballs and loons. even so the bnp saw two former nf'ers - brons and griffin - elected to the european parliament. sure, the bnp never really threatened to become a future government of the country. but their activity, ukip's activity, moved political debate among the main parties to the right: not that the tories were too averse to that anyway.

if at the moment the far right is mostly an irrelevance, now is the time to put the boot in, to prevent them developing into something more threatening. however, as the edl showed a threat from the far right can emerge within a short period of time. groups such as the former national action may not want to become mass movements. but some groups will do, and it's complacent to think that infighting and division will always be a feature of the british right.


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So why don't you give the same advice to the left when they organise against the far right?


I haven't given anyone any advice, merely asked for clarification of the assertions that people are worried by, and want a left response to, the acts of terrorism a couple of weeks ago.  All I've had in response is wriggling.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

newbie said:


> I haven't given anyone any advice, merely asked for clarification of the assertions that people are worried by, and want a left response to, the acts of terrorism a couple of weeks ago.  All I've had in response is wriggling.



I've yet to see you pop up on threads like EDL watch to finger wag so I'm interested as to why you're popping up on this one. You appear to be more concerned at the prospect of FLA being far right than those they're protesting against which you say yourself and the rest of the country don't find worrying. 

Now it may seem quite obvious to you but your contortions are quite amusing from the outside looking in.


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I've yet to see you pop up on threads like EDL watch to finger wag so I'm interested as to why you're popping up on this one. You appear to be more concerned at the prospect of FLA being far right than those they're protesting against which you say yourself and the rest of the country don't find worrying.
> 
> Now it may seem quite obvious to you but your contortions are quite amusing from the outside looking in.


Finger wag?  sorry magnus but I'm a bit baffled by your attitude.  I asked The39thStep about his post and he brushed the question aside. As I said, I live within a couple of miles or so of the sites of two of the attacks.  I've not perceived any 'worry', people have just carried on with their lives.  That contrasts with clear worries from people who live or work in blocks with cladding.  So I've asked for clarification. 

I don't understand why you've intervened, as you haven't really either supported his position or explained it, nor do I know why you're having a pop at me.  But I'm pleased I'm amusing you


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 5, 2017)

You must have missed my initial post #24 then.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

the Millwall London Bridge "hero" being a racist shocker

Millwall fan named 'Lion of London Bridge' spits at man during racist rant


> A man nicknamed the 'Lion of London Bridge' after he took on terrorists shouting "f*** you, I'm Millwall" during the deadly terror attack has been filmed spitting in a man's face during a vile racist rant.
> 
> Football fan Roy Larner hit the headlines after battling three knife-wielding jihadis with his fists.
> The 47-year-old 'hero' was stabbed eight times in the Black & Blue steak restaurant, in Borough Market, as he protected other customers and waiting staff.


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 6, 2017)

Did Roy Larner have anything to do with the organising or the reasons behind the FLA march ? Just wondered why that would be posted on a thread about it ? 

Edited to get rid of blurb about sent from phone


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

ddraig said:


> the Millwall London Bridge "hero" being a racist shocker
> 
> Millwall fan named 'Lion of London Bridge' spits at man during racist rant


What a vile disgusting racist cunt.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Did Roy Larner have anything to do with the organising or the reasons behind the FLA march ? Just wondered why that would be posted on a thread about it ?


He only led the entire march. 



> The march will be led by hero of the hour 'The Lion of London Bridge' - Roy Larner...


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> He only led the entire march.


Video not playing editor


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 6, 2017)

I'm not defending him btw I just wondered why the link to the FLA march and why this footage has only come to light now? This happened in February afaik 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Video not playing editor


You have to go to YouTube to view it. But anyway, it's now been confirmed that the march was led by the 'hero of the hour; who is a full-on racist scumbag. Make of that what you will.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 6, 2017)

Help raise £500 to My friend Roy Larner got stabbed eight times and was severely injured saving lives in the terror attack let's now reward his bravery

You can fund him if you want

The Southwark news had a lot of coverage of him after the attack, calling for him to be given an award etc. Fucking hell. Millwall do not help themselves do they.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> You have to go to YouTube to view it. But anyway, it's now been confirmed that the march was led by the 'hero of the hour; who is a full-on racist scumbag. Make of that what you will.



That people are so desperate to smear this march that they're now going through everyone's bins?


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That people are so desperate to smear this march that they're now going through everyone's bins?


What the fuck are you talking about? The organisers declared him the 'hero of the hour'  and by the sounds of it, his disgusting views would be well known to anyone who met him or spent time in his company, so why the fuck are you trying to play it down like it's nothing?

It's not like he just happened to be on the march. He LED the fucking thing! And have you read the account of his vile racism or seen the video?



> Shut up you c***," he shouts. "F*** off you spastic paedophile c***.
> 
> "W****** - I'll smash the life out of you.
> 
> ...


----------



## killer b (Jul 6, 2017)

brings to mind this classic tweet


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 6, 2017)

"Roy then shouts 'National Front' three or four times before walking into the path of a bus" is almost up there with "Exit pursued by a bear" though.


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 6, 2017)

I can't see any footage of Larmer on that video .. either during the speeches .. where surely he would have received a hero's welcome or at the set off of the march where he doesn't seem to be .. whilst leading the "entire" thing .. will be happily be proved wrong as I've only had a skim through of the video .. but if someone is happy to point out at what minutes he appears I would be grateful .. it's 2 hours long ffs


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? The organisers declared him the 'hero of the hour'  and by the sounds of it, his disgusting views would be well known to anyone who met him or spent time in his company, so why the fuck are you trying to play it down like it's nothing?
> 
> It's not like he just happened to be on the march. He LED the fucking thing! And have you read the account of his vile racism or seen the video?



There were 10,000 others on the march. And he led it I presume because of his heroism, not his racism.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

If he led it...


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Did Roy Larner have anything to do with the organising or the reasons behind the FLA march ? Just wondered why that would be posted on a thread about it ?
> 
> Edited to get rid of blurb about sent from phone


some people claim he was the inspiration behind FLA being set up, that's why i posted it


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There were 10,000 others on the march. And he led it I presume because of his heroism, not his racism.


Wow. You're actually defending this. A march led by a full-on raging racist scumbag.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> Wow. You're actually defending this. A march led by a full-on raging racist scumbag.



Given you didn't know he was a racist scumbag until today, you appear to hold the march attendees to a higher standard by expecting them to have known simply by attending it!


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Given you didn't know he was a racist scumbag until today, you appear to hold the march attendees to a higher standard by expecting them to have known simply by attending it!


If i was organising a march I think I'd spend a few moments finding out about the person I'd selected to lead the whole fucking thing. 

By the looks of it, it wouldn't be too hard to find out about this scumbag's political leanings, given the fact that he's partial to spitting and hurling vile racist abuse in the street at random black people.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> If i was organising a march I think I'd spend a few moments finding out about the person I'd selected to lead the whole fucking thing.
> 
> By the looks of it, it wouldn't be too hard to find out about this scumbag's political leanings, given the fact that he's partial to spitting and hurling vile racist abuse in the street at random black people.



So this guy is a cunt along with the march organisers. Only 9,999 people left to condemn.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So this guy is a cunt along with the march organisers. Only 9,999 people left to condemn.


You don't think the politics of the person elected to lead the march - and the people who selected him - might reflect in any way at all on the march overall?  Or do you think having a stinking full on racist who calls a black person an 'ape' at the front of the march is just a trifling detail, to be dismissed at will? 

I mean, he's only leading the entire fucking march.


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 6, 2017)

I still can't find on that footage where Roy Larmer is on the march .. can't see where he is leading it ??


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Now now, don't go spoiling the narrative, terry!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 6, 2017)

Roy of the Racism is a twat - he has £55K in a just giving account, is being Lionised by half the world, Millwall season tickets and VIP access ,would never have to buy a drink a again in his life and could probably make a living opening supermarkets and doing PA's - could have changed his life forever. All he had to do is think.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Now now, don't go spoiling the narrative, terry!


Ah, we're in the denial stage now. Here. Read. 



> *Football Lads Alliance (FLA)*
> 
> The FLA have also arranged a protest in London this Saturday. They are a relatively closed group but believed to be a collective of football supporters from various premiership clubs. A recent post from one of their members on social media stated: _"Right so the Football Lads (and ladies) Alliance - Unite against extremism protest march has just been confirmed by the police and will be from St Paul's Cathedral, walking down and across London Bridge to finish at Borough Market. A minute's silence will then be held to remember those killed in recent terror attacks. This will then be followed by talks by the people in charge and ex-military personnel.* ROY LARNER the Millwall fan attacked at Borough Market will be leading our march *alongside members of the Sikh community. This march welcomes anyone from any background race colour or creed to unite as one to show the government we will not stand for extremism in our great country. Be at St Paul's for 12.30pm Saturday 24th June. We will be leaving from Harlow train station at Approx. 10am". _


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

And here: 


> The Football Lads Alliance is a grass roots Anti Extremism movement in the UK. They have grown rapidly to over 30,000 members in less than two weeks (via a secret Facebook group), of which more than 6,000 people are expected to attend. Patriots from around Great Britain, many from the football community are standing together and peacefully marching through London protesting the UK government's reluctance in tackling the current extremism problem in the UK.
> 
> *The march will be led by hero of the hour 'The Lion of London Bridge' - Roy Larner, *alongside key figures of the FLA and leading members of the Sikh community - travelling from St. Pauls Cathedral via London Bridge and concluding at Borough Market. There will be a moments silence in remembrance of victims of the recent terrorist attacks and a number of speeches from special guests.


----------



## killer b (Jul 6, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Roy of the Racism is a twat - he has £55K in a just giving account, is being Lionised by half the world, Millwall season tickets and VIP access ,would never have to buy a drink a again in his life and could probably make a living opening supermarkets and doing PA's - could have changed his life forever. All he had to do is think.


No time machine to go back to February and stop himself from being all racist in front of a camera though.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 6, 2017)

Shit, I only skimmed the Mirror article and watched the vid. Didn't realise it was February. Oops sorry all.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> Ah, we're in the denial stage now. Here. Read.



A statement of intent isn't evidence of something happening.
I plan on winning the lottery this weekend, for example.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> If i was organising a march I think I'd spend a few moments finding out about the person I'd selected to lead the whole fucking thing.
> 
> By the looks of it, it wouldn't be too hard to find out about this scumbag's political leanings, given the fact that he's partial to spitting and hurling vile racist abuse in the street at random black people.


And who but a superannuated full-on fascist shouts national front these days?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> A statement of intent isn't evidence of something happening.
> I plan on winning the lottery this weekend, for example.


Your objective out of your control to achieve.


----------



## killer b (Jul 6, 2017)

This has all gone a bit weird. how about, he led the march as advertised, and the people involved probably had no idea he's NF? I don't see why it would be that easy to find out his leanings - no-one else knew until today after all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

killer b said:


> This has all gone a bit weird. how about, he led the march as advertised, and the people involved probably had no idea he's NF? I don't see why it would be that easy to find out his leanings - no-one else knew until today after all.


Except the people who filmed him mouthing off in feb


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

All of this stinks of class prejudice tbh. Working class lads who want to do something about attacks by Islamic Fascists can only be doing it for racist reasons! And of course they've now managed to dig out some evidence to prove it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

The most working class person in the world is getting this wrong - embarrassingly so. Any defence by the FLA organisers along the lines of the above rather than taking the space and public opportunity it opens to distance themselves from it/him/them is going to make them look like - and quite accurately - defenders of far-right nonsense, as people who these views are acceptable within this new attempt. Let's see what happens. The lay of the land is quite simple here  though.


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 6, 2017)

Yes that's been common knowledge for a while editor but I don't think he was there on the day.. also that isn't from the FLA directly is it? .. I've asked a couple of times now if you could point out on that footage where it is clear that Roy Larner is leading the march ? .. the guy is a racist cunt but trying to paint the whole movement as that based on this one man is a bit far fetched at the moment .. even in the interview with Meighan there is no mention of Larmer being on the event .. it's something that they would have promoted more given his current high profile .. I'm still at a loss to why this footage (of his racist out burst against the MfJ protesters)has been supressed until now.. usually all of that type of stuff is immeciately over social media .. surely the time to call him out for his racism would have been when he was all over our screens after the London Bridge attacks ... something is greatly amiss here.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Yes that's been common knowledge for a while editor but I don't think he was there on the day.. also that isn't from the FLA directly is it? .. I've asked a couple of times now if you could point out on that footage where it is clear that Roy Larner is leading the march ? .. the guy is a racist cunt but trying to paint the whole movement as that based on this one man is a bit far fetched at the moment .. even in the interview with Meighan there is no mention of Larmer being on the event .. it's something that they would have promoted more given his current high profile .. I'm still at a loss to why this footage (of his racist out burst against the MfJ protesters)has been supressed until now.. usually all of that type of stuff is immeciately over social media .. surely the time to call him out for his racism would have been when he was all over our screens after the London Bridge attacks ... something is greatly amiss here.


I doubt it was suppressed - just not reviewed. Tiny little MFJ march  - always someone mouthing off at these things, don#'t always remember who/where/when.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> Yes that's been common knowledge for a while editor but I don't think he was there on the day.. also that isn't from the FLA directly is it? .. I've asked a couple of times now if you could point out on that footage where it is clear that Roy Larner is leading the march ? .. the guy is a racist cunt but trying to paint the whole movement as that based on this one man is a bit far fetched at the moment .. even in the interview with Meighan there is no mention of Larmer being on the event .. it's something that they would have promoted more given his current high profile .. I'm still at a loss to why this footage (of his racist out burst against the MfJ protesters)has been supressed until now.. usually all of that type of stuff is immeciately over social media .. surely the time to call him out for his racism would have been when he was all over our screens after the London Bridge attacks ... something is greatly amiss here.


Is it? Or maybe people hadn't immediately realised it was the same man, or it took them a while to find the footage... I go more for delay caused by cock-up rather than conspiracy


----------



## ffsear (Jul 6, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> I'm still at a loss to why this footage (of his racist out burst against the MfJ protesters)has been supressed until now..



Waiting for the highest bid no doubt.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Waiting for the highest bid no doubt.


Is this, in some way, supposed to undermine the stuff in the video?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Waiting for the highest bid no doubt.


Yeh? What experience have you of dealing with journalists when you've a story?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> The most working class person in the world is getting this wrong - embarrassingly so. Any defence by the FLA organisers along the lines of the above rather than taking the space and public opportunity it opens to distance themselves from it/him/them is going to make them look like - and quite accurately - defenders of far-right nonsense, as people who these views are acceptable within this new attempt. Let's see what happens. The lay of the land is quite simple here  though.



Alternatively, the most working class person in the world might be intrigued as to how it pans out rather than desperate to dismiss it as far right on flimsy evidence. 

The one thing I have watched, an interview with some spokesman who was keen to distance himself from patriotism, let alone racism.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And of course they've now managed to dig out some evidence to prove it.



And 'white working class' identity trumps mere evidence

Who are 'they', why 'of course' they have evidence?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> And 'white working class' identity trumps mere evidence
> 
> Who are 'they', why 'of course' they have evidence?



We're talking 10,000 people here. The racist connection was because he fronted the London Bridge attackers. The left are pleased now that he can be dismissed as a hero because he's just a racist innit.
Ergo the whole march is also.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Stop identity bleating. Every class based organisation or movement has had to deal with racists - and they did, that's what makes/made them left-wing. They didn't cry like this. They dealt - politically, physically and intellectually with it. You sound like the identity politics people you go on about.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

> We're talking 10,000 people here. The racist connection was because he fronted the London Bridge attackers. The left are pleased now that he can be dismissed as a hero because he's just a racist innit.
> Ergo the whole march is also.



Conspiracy theory stuff this. Evidence that the leader of a march is a racist = evidence of bad faith attempt to label march as racist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We're talking 10,000 people here. The racist connection was because he fronted the London Bridge attackers. The left are pleased now that he can be dismissed as a hero because he's just a racist innit.
> Ergo the whole march is also.


Every group makes mistakes. It's how it deals with them that shows the group's quality. I don't think FLA is a racist or fascist organisation. But I think it has the potential to become such a body.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2017)

newbie said:


> Finger wag?  sorry magnus but I'm a bit baffled by your attitude.  I asked The39thStep about his post and he brushed the question aside. As I said, I live within a couple of miles or so of the sites of two of the attacks.  I've not perceived any 'worry', people have just carried on with their lives.  That contrasts with clear worries from people who live or work in blocks with cladding.  So I've asked for clarification.
> 
> I don't understand why you've intervened, as you haven't really either supported his position or explained it, nor do I know why you're having a pop at me.  But I'm pleased I'm amusing you


I haven't brushed anything aside apart from these fucking flies that keep swarming around me.  Just been busy with visitors. Will get back to whatever question you asked when they have gone. You do realise btw that you are fair game to have a pop at?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I haven't brushed anything aside apart from these fucking flies that keep swarming around me.  Just been busy with visitors. Will get back to whatever question you asked when they have gone. You do realise btw that you are fair game to have a pop at?


Only until the closed season starts on 13 october


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Stop identity bleating. Every class based organisation or movement has had to deal with racists - and they did, that's what makes/made them left-wing. They didn't cry like this. They dealt - politically, physically and intellectually with it. You sound like the identity politics people you go on about.



Which bit particularly makes me sound like that? I'm not wanting to strangle it and waiting instead to see it reveal itself if it is what you and others want it to be.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which bit particularly makes me sound like that? I'm not wanting to strangle it and waiting instead to see it reveal itself if it is what you and others want it to be.


but no one is saying that's what "they want it to be" are they? not as far as i can see anyway, jury is very much still out by the looks of it, here at least
I just posted the story as he was suggested as the reason FLA started, that is all, no gloating no "see! see!"

maybe you are wanting it to be kosher and defending it where no one is particularly attacking it?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

ddraig said:


> but no one is saying that's what "they want it to be" are they? not as far as i can see anyway, jury is very much still out by the looks of it, here at least
> I just posted the story as he was suggested as the reason FLA started, that is all, no gloating no "see! see!"
> 
> maybe you are wanting it to be kosher and defending it where no one is particularly attacking it?



The whole of the left on social media has exploded with glee. Because they're fucking pissed off that they can't oppose this thing on racist grounds and now they have the excuse, Ey? 
Fuck all comment or action on Clerical Fascism, cos that's racist!


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which bit particularly makes me sound like that? I'm not wanting to strangle it and waiting instead to see it reveal itself if it is what you and others want it to be.


_Don't have ago at w/c white people, that's classist bleat bleat - just saying anything about w/c white people is too much_


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The whole of the left on social media has exploded with glee. Because they're fucking pissed off that they can't oppose this thing on racist grounds and now they have the excuse, Ey?
> Fuck all comment or action on Clerical Fascism, cos that's racist!


That image of class first and only white people that posh identity politics types have - you are their wet fucking dream. They don't exist in reality - but here we have a living breathing one...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> _Don't have ago at w/c white people, that's classist bleat bleat - just saying anything about w/c white people is too much_



When did I mention white?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> That image of class first and only white people that posh identity politics types have - you are their wet fucking dream. They don't exist in reality - but here we have a living breathing one...



When did I mention white?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Argument built on a fallacy  

Oh well.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The whole of the left on social media has exploded with glee.


The "whole of the left on social media", you say? All busily 'exploding with glee.'

You don't think you're getting a little carried away here?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> When did I mention white?


Didn't need to  - it's all over every post you've made since you come back as an irish republican fetishist. You're here to defend us. It's your role now.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

editor said:


> The "whole of the left on social media", you say? All busily 'exploding with glee.'
> 
> You don't think you're getting a little carried away here?



This is Magnus in sensible mode. He hasn't started his own thread yet


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> When did I mention white?


They mentioned white not you.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

To be fair Magnus doesn't just make a point about being white 

He bangs on about being cis bloke a lot too


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

_ullo i'm a working class people guv
_


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Didn't need to  - it's all over every post you've made since you come back as an irish republican fetishist. You're here to defend us. It's your role now.



I'm not an Irish Republican fetishist. The only reason that even cropped up is because someone hijacked a thread about National Action. 

Maybe I started a thread about National Action to be an Irish Republican fetishist?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Anyway. It's good you're now in a caucus nowadays with middle class liberals, Butchers. 
Wherever the adulation comes from, eh?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm not an Irish Republican fetishist. The only reason that even cropped up is because someone hijacked a thread about National Action.
> 
> Maybe I started a thread about National Action to be an Irish Republican fetishist?



So you do repeatedly bring up your whiteness? And make the point of how that 'identity' is mistreated?

Yes/no?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> So you do repeatedly bring up your whiteness? And make the point of how that 'identity' is mistreated?
> 
> Yes/no?



Do I? Instead of asking me can you point to where I have?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Anyway. It's good you're now in a caucus nowadays with middle class liberals, Butchers.
> Wherever the adulation comes from, eh?


You really haven't got the hang of this left-wing working class stuff have you? Have a look at the two terms there a) left-wing b) working class

I think that celtic top should be dry by now btw


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

We'll be waiting a while if this preening opportunist can even be arsed looking.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You really haven't got the hang of this left-wing working class stuff have you? Have a look at the two terms there a) left-wing b) working class
> 
> I think that celtic top should be dry by now btw



Which Celtic top? Are you making stuff up again?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do I? Instead of asking me can you point to where I have?



BA beat me to it with posting the results of searching for 'white' and Magnus McGinty. So you haven't posted about being white 50 or so times?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which Celtic top? Are you making stuff up again?


Which? You have home and away now?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> BA beat me to it with posting the results of searching for 'white' and Magnus McGinty. So you haven't posted about being white 50 or so times?



I asked you to provide evidence mate.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Which? You have home and away now?



I don't even like football. Why didn't your google skills tell you that like everything else?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm not an Irish Republican fetishist.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't even like football. Why didn't your google skills tell you that like everything else?



Oh give it up.

You've got no politics. Just need a way to articulate your perception of being attacked. Hence the identity/conspiracy nonsense


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't even like football. Why didn't your google skills tell you that like everything else?


That's sort of the point.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Phew. I'm about to EXPLODE WITH GLEE soon. 
I'm not sure why, but I can feel it comin' on.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I asked you to provide evidence mate.



I really can't be arsed to cut and paste posts which are linked to up thread. 

I'd rather not be your mate if that's ok.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Oh give it up.
> 
> You've got no politics. Just need a way to articulate your perception of being attacked. Hence the identity/conspiracy nonsense



Dude, you're too new. Piss off, yeah?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Please don't like my posts B.I.G - they don't like you.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> That's sort of the point.



That I see class over identity? Is that the point?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Dude, you're too new. Piss off, yeah?



Dude. Yeah. Not very white working class.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Butchers, ask madeinbedlam to piss off.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I really can't be arsed to cut and paste posts which are linked to up thread.
> 
> I'd rather not be your mate if that's ok.



Just fuck off then. At least I know butchers is real ffs


----------



## SE25 (Jul 6, 2017)

Why is it racists and the far right think only they belong under the white working class banner? Every leftie is a metropolitan North London dwelling middle class champagne socialist (christ...) apparently

edit: and why is the white part important to them?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Dude, you're too new. Piss off, yeah?



Instead of attempting to police others, why not just stick me on ignore if you're so averse to being challenged?

Dude.


----------



## newbie (Jul 6, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I haven't brushed anything aside apart from these fucking flies that keep swarming around me.  Just been busy with visitors. Will get back to whatever question you asked when they have gone. You do realise btw that you are fair game to have a pop at?


of course I do, but that doesn't necessarily mean I always understand why it's happening 

Sorry to hear about the flies.  Brush off was here


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That I see class over identity? Is that the point?


No. It's that you reduce class to identity. You're playing identity politics when you think that you're attacking it. Even to the point of going out of your way to defend 'football lads' despite not knowing about either football or lads because they're _yours_.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

I'm loving all these non activists getting het up and the icing on the cake is them accusing me of going on about the white working class, which they can't back up because I never have.
But it can be proven by a thread I started ABOUT white supremacists which got hijacked into comparisons with Irish Republicanism and me arguing the point there makes me a fetishist. 
Do you even do anything worthwhile outside of the internet nowadays Butchers? Or does this and your caucus fulfil the ego needs?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Instead of attempting to police others, why not just stick me on ignore if you're so averse to being challenged?
> 
> Dude.



Just provide the evidence you were on about. It's on this forum.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> No. It's that you reduce class to identity. You're playing identity politics when you think that you're attacking it. Even to the point of going out of your way to defend 'football lads' despite not knowing about either football or lads because they're _yours_.



My comment there was how 'the left' uses those terms. Fuck, you used to be on the money. What happened?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just provide the evidence you were on about.
> 
> It's on this forum.



Please re-read those two sentences. Please. Then read them again.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm loving all these non activists getting het up and the icing on the cake is them accusing me of going on about the white working class, which they can't back up because I never have.
> But it can be proven by a thread I started ABOUT white supremacists which got hijacked into comparisons with Irish Republicanism and me arguing the point there makes me a fetishist.
> Do you even do anything worthwhile outside of the internet nowadays Butchers? Or does this and your caucus fulfil the ego needs?


I quote this post in it's full beauty. Appreciate it people.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Please re-read those two sentences. Please. Then read them again.



Look man, you made some claims about me talking about the white working class as an identity based on Butchers' bullshit. Show me where I've done that or piss off. He suddenly relied on other stuff to 'prove' it. You haven't caught up.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> I quote this post in it's full beauty. Appreciate it people.



And?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Look man, you made some claims about me talking about the white working class as an identity based on Butchers' bullshit. Show me where I've done that or piss off. He suddenly relied on other stuff to 'prove' it. You haven't caught up.



If anything BA stole my thunder by posting the results of searching for 'white' and your user name. You repeatedly reference your  white/cis/male 'identity'. 

I'm not going to cut and past dozens of posts.

Sorry. Man


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Look man, you made some claims about me talking about the white working class as an identity based on Butchers' bullshit. Show me where I've done that or piss off. He suddenly relied on other stuff to 'prove' it. You haven't caught up.


No you prat - i said that the identity politics freaks have a mirror image of their adversaries. It's a white identity politics obsessed freak. They are in competition with each other. Both are unhelpful twats and you're arguing for one of them. The sort of politics that you think you're supporting, the rejection of top-down state led multi-culturalism in favour of bottom up really lived diversity rejects both of these. Get with it daddio.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> When did I mention white?



Why did you ask this? Forgetfulness? As rhetoric?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> If anything BA stole my thunder by posting the results of searching for 'white' and your user name. You repeatedly reference your  white/cis/male 'identity'.
> 
> I'm not going to cut and past dozens of posts.
> 
> Sorry. Man



Either you provide evidence or you can't. 
Just fuck off.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> No you prat - i said that the identity politics freaks have a mirror image of their adversaries. It's a white identity politics obsessed freak. They are in competition with each other. Both are unhelpful twats and you're arguing for one of them. The sort of politics that you think you're supporting, the rejection of top-down state led multi-culturalism in favour of bottom up really lived diversity rejects both of these. Get with it daddio.



This works when you show where I've argued in favour of a white identity. Which you can't. 

So why are you being a poisonous cunt claiming positions I don't hold?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Either you provide evidence or you can't.
> Just fuck off.



Now you're back to getting me to 'fuck off'.

The evidence has already been provided. As you said, it's on this forum. And it''s even been linked to for your benefit.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Now you're back to getting me to 'fuck off'.
> 
> The evidence has already been provided. As you said, it's on this forum. And it''s even been linked to for your benefit.



Where is it?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> When did I mention white?



This was a disingenuous question wasn't it?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Where is it?



On the link provided above


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This works when you show where I've argued in favour of a white identity. Which you can't.
> 
> So why are you being a poisonous cunt claiming positions I don't hold?


You don't quite get this conversation do you? What use are you in this if you just go FLA = working class and w/c lads are great! That's not a left-wing position nor is it the historical position of the w/c  anti-fascist groups that you're crudely trying to place yourself in the tradition of.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You don't quite get this conversation do you? What use are you in this if you just go FLA = working class and w/c lads are great! That's not a left-wing position nor is it the historical position of the w/c  anti-fascist groups that you're crudely trying to place yourself in the tradition of.



I'm neither defending or supporting it. I'm interested in it and irked by the left's desire to condemn it.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

If you are in any doubt about this roy bloke and his politics and somehow think  attacking it or them is classist then what use are you to anti-fascism? I doubt this bloke is together enough to play any serious role in anything whatsover and was just mouthing shit from his youth when the NF meant something - but to invite this poison and say it's just how working class people are when they organise politically...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm neither defending or supporting it. I'm interested in it and irked by the left's desire to condemn it.


And in your rush you've rushed to something else - based on identity politics.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> And in your rush you're rushed to something else - based on identity politics.



If you think social class is identity politics then yeah. But you don't.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> On the link provided above



You're not worth bothering with.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You're not worth bothering with.



But worth making the point of saying so.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> But worth making the point of saying so.



On the internet. Outside of it, who are you?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> On the internet. Outside of it, who are you?



What?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 6, 2017)

oh ffs


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

I wouldn't mind examples of me using the white working class as an identity which yer man claimed, but It isn't forthcoming. 
If we're doing "oh, ffs" officially then smearing posters ought to be the starting blocks, but I'm willing to drop It as the lies are boring.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Where have I lied? Which posts?

Are you 'dropping it' or not?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Where have I lied? Which posts?
> 
> Are you 'dropping it' or not?



Man, you're pointless. But to continue your need for the limelight feel free to point out on here or anywhere where I've used white working class as an identity.
You've got to stand by what you say and not rely on the big boys to help you out.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Dude, you're too new. Piss off, yeah?



they've been a poster longer than you
how does that work then?? (seeing as it matters to you)


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Oh ffs,

Magnus McGinty. If you put 'white' and your username in the search function, you'll get 3 pages of results. Most of this is you lamenting how the fact of being white makes you a target/villain/victim. 

Are you saying this isn't in the case? What further 'evidence' do you want?

Man


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Oh ffs,
> 
> Magnus McGinty. If you put 'white' and your username in the search function, you'll get 3 pages of results. Most of this is you lamenting how the fact of being white makes you a target/villain/victim.
> 
> ...



That you show these posts in the context you claim,


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Or do I need to dox myself to make you feel better?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Or do I need to dox myself to make you feel better?



 No need for that. Just show that I've said what you claim I have.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

ddraig said:


> they've been a poster longer than you
> how does that work then?? (seeing as it matters to you)



Lol


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

The fact that you feel a need to, again and again, complain that your 'whiteness' (or your maleness/cis-ness or whatever) makes you a target.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Lol



Mate. Everyone is.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> The fact that you feel a need to, again and again, complain that your 'whiteness' (or your maleness/cis-ness or whatever) makes you a target.



Link to the posts about whiteness.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Lol



Are you suggesting this isn't your first username here then? A returner?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Link to the posts about whiteness.



Given above. 

Show me the posts where I've lied/smeared you. Each and every post. As we're playing that game.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Are you suggesting this isn't your first username here then? A returner?



I used to be Citizen66. It wasn't a secret. Now show me where I've described white working class as an identity.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Ah. So this is a long time beef


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I used to be Citizen66. It wasn't a secret. Now show me where I've described white working class as an identity.


no way! that's sad


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Ah. So this is a long time beef



What is?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

ddraig said:


> no way! that's sad



What is?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

that you seem to have turned into a cock, can't remember c66 being like this


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Show me the posts where I've lied Magnus McGinty / citizen?

Why the name change?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

ddraig said:


> that you seem to have turned into a cock, can't remember c66 being like this



Why am I a cock mate?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Show me the posts where I've lied Magnus McGinty / citizen?
> 
> Why the name change?



Personal reasons.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Personal reasons.



Well I'm sorry for your personal issues. Can you give it a rest now?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Can anyone point out where I've mentioned the white working class then? 
It's probably the worst thing I could be accused of so I'm interested in clearing my name. And I mean recently, not something from my bins.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Well I'm sorry for your personal issues. Can you give it a rest now?



Can you back up your accusations, or not?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Can anyone point out where I've mentioned the white working class then?
> It's probably the worst thing I could be accused of so I'm interested in clearing my name. And I mean recently, not something from my bins.


The whole point of your intervention here is that white w/c people are being called racist due to social prejudice. Every post on this thread from you is the evidence that you're searching for. The stuff after Roy Larner was exposed in particular. That shit is embarrassing and white w/c  identity based  - how dare you assume etc


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Can you back up your accusations, or not?



What have I accused you of? Please link to my accusatory posts.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Lots of people are looking. So I need you to back up your shit mate. You might think that only me and you see this but you're wrong. 
I'm willing to drop it though knowing that you can't.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I used to be Citizen66. It wasn't a secret. Now show me where I've described white working class as an identity.


News to me. Welcome back!


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

What is my shit? Please link to the shitty posts


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> The whole point of your intervention here is that white w/c people are being called racist due to social prejudice. Every post on this thread from you is the evidence that you're searching for. The stuff after Roy Larner was exposed in particular. That shit is embarrassing.



Of course it's embarrassing. The fact that 10,000 football hooligans are doing what the left should be doing is the most embarrassing thing ever. And what are you doing?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Someone who is a bit of chaotic racist was suggested/inspired front a march. Pointing out his racism and the  seeing a way for the organisers to use it to get rid of racists from their movement is not an attack on the white working class. This stuff is madness. Stop it.


----------



## bimble (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course it's embarrassing. The fact that 10,000 football hooligans are doing what the left should be doing is the most embarrassing thing ever. And what are you doing?



What's this thing they're doing that you think is great?


----------



## Balbi (Jul 6, 2017)

It's proper naughty in here.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why am I a cock?



this is why, and that search with all the times you've banged on about "white"


butchersapron said:


> The whole point of your intervention here is that white w/c people are being called racist due to social prejudice. Every post on this thread from you is the evidence that you're searching for. The stuff after Roy Larner was exposed in particular. That shit is embarrassing and white w/c  identity based  - how dare you assume etc


and if you're still in any doubt just read the last few pages of this very thread


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course it's embarrassing. The fact that 10,000 football hooligans are doing what the left should be doing is the most embarrassing thing ever. And what are you doing?


They're _10,000 football hooligans_ now?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course it's embarrassing. The fact that 10,000 football hooligans are doing what the left should be doing is the most embarrassing thing ever. And what are you doing?


Jesus wept. Are you now going to lay out some actual stuff you've been doing? If not, then why are you talking?

Did you go offline, read some IWCA/REDACTION and get the point back to front and then decide to tell the rest of us the good news under a new name. It seems like it because you are like  a cardboard cut-out of a working class person. Unreal.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

ddraig said:


> this is why, and that search with all the times you've banged on about "white"
> 
> and if you're still in any doubt just read the last few pages of this very thread



Show him the posts dude


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Someone who is a bit of chaotic racist was suggested/inspired front a march. Pointing out his racism and the  seeing a way for the organisers to use it to get rid of racists from their movement is not an attack on the white working class. This stuff is madness. Stop it.



I haven't mentioned the white fucking working class man.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Show him the posts dude


easy! 


butchersapron said:


> Didn't need to  - it's all over every post you've made since you come back as an irish republican fetishist. You're here to defend us. It's your role now.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven't mentioned the white fucking working class man.



Are you high, man?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Jesus wept. Are you now going to lay out some actual stuff you've been doing? If not, then why are you talking?
> 
> Did you go offline, read some IWCA/REDACTION and get the point back to front and then decide to tell the rest of us the good news under a new name. It seems like it because you are like  a cardboard cut-out of a working class person. Unreal.



Ill ask them.


----------



## Balbi (Jul 6, 2017)

Here comes some backup to these valiant heroes of the left


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ill ask them.


What, again? What happened last time?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> What, again? What happened last time?



There was a last time?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Be careful not to lie at this point mate.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There was a last time?


Oh yes. My little pub general.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Be careful not to lie at this point mate.


Or the heavies come round? That was an embarrassing thread for you too. Do you yet realise how crap the idea of ringing red action/iwca/afa people is to me? It's pretty crap.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

I was pulling your leg. But well done for escalating it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Or the heavies come round? That was an embarrassing thread for you too. Do you yet realise how crap the idea of ringing red action/iwca/afa people is to me? It's pretty crap.



And me too. I was ripping the piss.
Why do you need to do this very public stuff? Let's have It out your problem with me.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 6, 2017)

it's been a while since we have had a public flounce


anyways has that cunt from the EDL not be floating around with the FLA


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I was pulling your leg. But well done for escalating it.


It's escalated! You're going to call tommy sheridan or something now?

I reckon that twice saying_ i'll call people_ is a bit of a shit joke (I'll allow you to have that, but we both know the reality) and it's backfired twice. Pick someone else for that shit. Or better, don't do it at all.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Nothing backfired


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

If you are in the RA/IWCA/AFA orbit magnus then read their criticisms of identity based politics - they would be really helpful for you. If you want to put a class perspective over in a proper modern way you need to get that shit done. Your posts on here about class are like from the 70s.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

You're talking shit mate. I haven't once done what you describe.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2017)

Damn. I just EXPLODED WITH GLEE again, like all lefties do. Apparently.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Nothing backfired


Well you've twice looked like a tit after saying you'll call someone to check out someone elses bona fides and  you either did and got told to shut up or you didn't do it at all. Neither are what you'd call winning results.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Well you've twice looked like a tit after saying you'll call someone to check out someone elses bona fides and  you either did and got told to shut up or you didn't do it at all. Neither are what you'd call winning results.



I was ripping the piss out of your ego. How is the caucus going? Fucking hell, like It even matters.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Well you've twice looked like a tit after saying you'll call someone to check out someone elses bona fides and  you either did and got told to shut up or you didn't do it at all. Neither are what you'd call winning results.



I was ripping the piss out of your ego. How is the caucus going? Fucking hell, like It even matters. Winning the internet! That's what it is?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

3-0 (HT)


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I was ripping the piss out of your ego. How is the caucus going? Fucking hell, like It even matters. Winning the internet! That's what it is?



Just go to bed. You're upsetting yourself and irritating/amusing everyone else.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I was ripping the piss out of your ego. How is the caucus going? Fucking hell, like It even matters. Winning the internet! That's what it is?


When you pm-ed me to tell me that '_they're all watching'_ this wasn't another attempt to align yourself with left the same RA/IWCA/AFA types you have twice said you'd ring up to deal with me and been twicely rebuffed? You meant a whole load of other people you puffed up timewaster? Is that right?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

He's liked afa on facebook and know he's king of the mountains. This is great stuff.


----------



## ddraig (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I was ripping the piss out of your ego. How is the caucus going? Fucking hell, like It even matters. Winning the internet! That's what it is?


you seem pretty determined to win here
and that post quoted from another thread didn't look like leg pulling either!
get a grip son


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> 3-0 (HT)



The fact you used a windup of mine as evidence of something just shows how much I'm running rings round you man.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

This is  running rings. Who are you in this?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The fact you used a windup of mine as evidence of something just shows how much I'm running rings round you man.



You're winning the intenet Magnus


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)




----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Just ring some people up. Come on.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

About what? The trouble of an online gobshite?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> About what? The trouble of an online gobshite?


_Couldn't have gone smoother._


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Must.have.the.last.word


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Must.have.the.last.word


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

"They're all reading this" - you given away readification motivation and bonafidescheckisation. Dodgy

And not being able to back up your calls.

Good day that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

Speaking of backing things up, is there any evidence that I consider the white working class a distinct racial group? Beyond parodying idiots?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 6, 2017)

What's it now? Close to twenty years? Has preening lad done twenty months yet?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Speaking of backing things up, is there any evidence that I consider the white working class a distinct racial group?



Where was this claimed?

You are fucking dense


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What's it now? Close to twenty years? Has preening lad done twenty months yet?



'Preening lad' doesn't make you sound at all weird

What's with all the 'preening' anyway?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 6, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What's it now? Close to twenty years? Has preening lad done twenty months yet?


Don't do this to yourself.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

I should refrain. Sound advice.


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 7, 2017)

newbie said:


> It's not a question of 'position'.  Organising against fascists gathering in a car park or anywhere else is somewhat more clearcut than the left response to individuals who hire a van and buy a kitchen knife.



It's not some individuals, it's an ideology . Funded by a number of foreign governments with intimate ties to the UK ruling class .  These individuals who do this are ideologically motivated . Just like the other fascists . Their repulsive actions  are ideologically motivated . They are political . Your answers a cop out I'm afraid . Individuals with vans and knives ffs .


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? The organisers declared him the 'hero of the hour'  and by the sounds of it, his disgusting views would be well known to anyone who met him or spent time in his company, so why the fuck are you trying to play it down like it's nothing?
> 
> It's not like he just happened to be on the march. He LED the fucking thing! And have you read the account of his vile racism or seen the video?



No offence but the entire UK media declared him a hero . Not just the organisers . I'd assume that and the fact he was a football type was the primary reason he was chosen . This lot might well be a bunch of cunts , or may well morph into a bunch of cunts, but that video of him shouting racist abuse doesn't remotely strike me as the reason he was chosen to speak at it . Its disingenuous to suggest it is . A football thug..because he's a thug..who physically confronted IS on the street and briefly achieved national iconic media status as a result is an obvious reason why he'd be chosen . It's the image they're trying to project . To use his racism to immediately tar all of them as a racist project strikes me as disingenuous .
By all means out them if or when a racist agenda emerges but as yet it hasn't .

Probably will though .


----------



## ddraig (Jul 7, 2017)

agree with that but ed and others (here) are not trying to tar the whole lot as racists, imo


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 7, 2017)

Apologies to all if I took it up wrong .


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

ddraig said:


> agree with that but ed and others (here) are not trying to tar the whole lot as racists, imo



They're just focusing on those that are.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

Interview with the organiser where he cleverly conceals being a racist. 

Meet the FLA.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Interview with the organiser where he cleverly conceals being a racist.
> 
> Meet the FLA.



So the stated aim according to him is simply this: "_We’re looking to put some pressure on the government with petitions to alter laws on terror"._
What might that mean in practice do you think? How would you like the 'laws on terror' to be altered and why is this what you think 'the left' should be doing?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

bimble said:


> So the stated aim according to him is simply this: "_We’re looking to put some pressure on the government with petitions to alter laws on terror"._
> What might that mean in practice do you think? Why is this what you think 'the left' should be doing?



I haven't said I think it's what the left should be doing. But they should have a position on it beyond pointing and going "that's racist!" at anyone that does.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> *I haven't said I think it's what the left should be doing.* But they should have a position on it beyond pointing and going "that's racist!" at anyone that does.


hmm. 


Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course it's embarrassing. The fact that 10,000 football hooligans are doing what the left should be doing is the most embarrassing thing ever. And what are you doing?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

Yes there's no nuances beneath that statement at all. Well done catching me out.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2017)

Not trying to catch you out just trying to get some idea of what the fuck you're on about. You seem to think these people are doing something necessary and important, which 'the left' ought to be doing, but what is that important thing?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

bimble said:


> Not trying to catch you out just trying to get some idea of what the fuck you're on about. You seem to think these people are doing something necessary and important, which 'the left' ought to be doing, but what is that important thing?



Not ducking opposition to fascism when the fascists have brown skin maybe?


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2017)

You know how in the US recently there were marches all over the country that were called 'march against sharia', and there were counter-demonstations in many of those places outnumbering the anti-sharia ones. Which side would you join?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

Is that all there is? A false dichotomy?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

So ruddy brave. Probably the bravest person in the country.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 7, 2017)

bimble said:


> Not trying to catch you out just trying to get some idea of what the fuck you're on about. You seem to think these people are doing something necessary and important, which 'the left' ought to be doing, but what is that important thing?


Maybe the left could have a whip round to buy GCHQ a new computer.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> So ruddy brave. Probably the bravest person in the country.



This is what you do when you haven't got an argument. Yesterday it was inventing motivations for my position. Today it's straight to the ad hominems.


----------



## bimble (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not ducking opposition to fascism when the fascists have brown skin maybe?


How would you suggest that might be effectively done?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not ducking opposition to fascism when the fascists have brown skin maybe?


mm, perhaps you could pick your battles with more care in future


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This is what you do when you haven't got an argument. Yesterday it was inventing motivations for my position. Today it's straight to the ad hominems.


Haven't got an argument? My argument is that your posts post exposure of root larner are, rather than being a careful class analysis as you seem to think that you're offering, are brilliant examples of identity bleating. The sort of thing that you claim over and over to reject. And that this shows that you understand neither class politics and the rejection of identity politics that it entails nor identity politics itself. 

Oh yeah, and that your I'll give the boys a bell stance is hilarious.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

You conflating class with identity means I neither understand class or identity?

Genius.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You conflating class with identity means I neither understand class or identity?
> 
> Genius.


You literally have no clue what you're doing.


----------



## newbie (Jul 7, 2017)

Casually Red said:


> It's not some individuals, it's an ideology . Funded by a number of foreign governments with intimate ties to the UK ruling class .  These individuals who do this are ideologically motivated . Just like the other fascists . Their repulsive actions  are ideologically motivated . They are political . Your answers a cop out I'm afraid . Individuals with vans and knives ffs .


of course it's an ideology, no-one could doubt that, unless they want to hair-split about whether it's a theology.  The discussion is about organising against it, and whether there is a useful 'left' response.  

The UK is at war with ISIS, sending out drones, jets, SAS etc to kill them. Here, with hardly any public opposition, people have been jailed for what in other circumstances would be called 'thought crimes', for possession of literature freely available on the internet, for publicly supporting the caliphate. No-one I've noticed has criticised the increase in armed police on the streets, nor the increased security measures we've all noticed.  One of the popular LP election pledges was 20,000 extra police, specifically linked to ISIS.  

That's what differentiates ISIS from anything else, both the official national response and the public attitude to them. They have next to no support, except from rather isolated individuals, and the vast, vast majority are prepared to accept pretty much whatever it takes to defeat them.  That really wasn't the case during previous periods of domestic terrorist attacks, the Angry Brigade or Troubles periods.

So what purpose to a demo?  The government won't care and ISIS will be pleased people are showing they're 'worried' or upset. I'd have thought the only people motivated would be those who seek racial division, and nothing I've read on this thread has made me think otherwise.

I've been on demos against what Magnus calls 'clerical fascism', at DSEI and elsewhere protesting about arms sales to Saudi and the rest of the region.  As a 'left' response to foreign murderous religious fundamentalism that makes sense, and has sensible, achievable demands of government.  Protesting against ISIS right now, as they're being driven out of Mosul & Raqqa, strikes me as a like marching against Hitler sometime after D-Day.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You literally have no clue what you're doing.



You're not claiming class is an identity then?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You're not claiming class is an identity then?


Oh my ducking God. This is beyond stupid now.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Oh my ducking God. This is beyond stupid now.



You spent all of yesterday arguing that I was defending class as an identity. Now given that isn't what I think what does that leave?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You spent all of yesterday arguing that I was defending class as an identity. Now given that isn't what I think what does that leave?


It leaves you not understanding that you're arguing identity politics but think that you're doing class politics. You literally don't get what you're saying.


----------



## emanymton (Jul 7, 2017)

Meet the man behind Britain’s new street movement (with a difference)




> To say the past three weeks have been a whirlwind for 32-year-old John Meighan would be an understatement. The property manager



Proper salt of the earth working class these football lads.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> It leaves you not understanding that you're arguing identity politics but think that you're doing class politics. You literally don't get what you're saying.



I'm doing identity politics by pointing out that a lot of the sneering towards the FLA is driven by class prejudice? Explain.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm doing identity politics by pointing out that a lot of the sneering towards the FLA is driven by class prejudice? Explain.


Your defence of roy larner is far to the right of anything from the fla. It boils down to you saying he's white and working class so don't attack him or anything or anyone to do with him. Pure identity politics. Not that you remember any of this conversation.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Your defence of roy larner is far to the right of anything from the fla. It boils down to you saying he's white and working class so don't attack him or anything or anyone to do with him. Pure identity politics. Not that you remember any of this conversation.



What the fuck? That wasn't my line at all.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Doesn't remember a word of it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Doesn't remember a word of it.



Point to where I defended him like you claim.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Your defence of roy larner



?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Point to where I defended him like you claim.


I suggest that you review your  late night ramblings and the various responses to them. Don't do this child-like prodding or you'll be back at demanding satisfaction before very long.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> I suggest that you review your  late night ramblings and the various responses to them. Don't do this child-like prodding or you'll be back at demanding satisfaction before very long.



Ok so you can't point to where I defended him.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ok so you can't point to where I defended him.


i posted what i am 100% certain is a fair and accurate characterisation of the drivel you posted last night. If you believe it's  unfair or inaccurate  then by all means either a) go ahead and explain why saying his racism is being used to attack your new heroes because they're working class so stop it is not a fair reading of what you said or b) learn to argue.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

But do it quick as i'm going to watch cricket soon and going round the houses with a non-driver is pretty boring.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

So it was as factual as the crap about me having a Celtic top.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

I don't really think you've quite yet plunged the depths of  buying a penny whistle and trying to learn and play rebel songs on it but if i suggested that you were some sort of amateur tin-whistle blower it would stand in for a shallow and cheap fetishism of irish republicanism pinned onto the personal history of militant anti-fascism from the 80s onwards in this country. 

Maybe it's an altona 93 top though.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> i posted what i am 100% certain is a fair and accurate characterisation of the drivel you posted last night. If you believe it's  unfair or inaccurate  then by all means either a) go ahead and explain why saying his racism is being used to attack your new heroes because they're working class so stop it is not a fair reading of what you said or b) learn to argue.



arguing his racism is being used against the FLA as a whole isn't defending him (and his racism) is it?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> arguing his racism is being used against the FLA as a whole isn't defending him (and his racism) is it?


Arguing that it doesn't matter and be quiet don't mention it, don't ask questions most definetely _is _doing that work.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> I don't really think you've quite yet plunged the depths of  buying a penny whistle and trying to learn and play rebel songs on it but if i suggested that you were some sort of amateur tin-whistle blower it would stand in for a shallow and cheap fetishism of irish republicanism pinned onto the personal history of militant anti-fascism from the 80s onwards in this country.
> 
> Maybe it's an altona 93 top though.



Because Krtek hijacked my thread about National Action?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Arguing that it doesn't matter and be quiet don't mention it, don't ask questions most definetely _is _doing that work.



I'm not telling anyone to be quiet. I'm just pointing out that there's lots of glee about it as it's confirmed their suspicions (based on what, if not social class?)


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Oh jesus.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Krtek's thread hijacks now a blissful memory compared to your rantings


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Oh jesus.



Well where are you getting this idea that I'm an Irish Republican fetishist?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Krtek's thread hijacks now a blissful memory compared to your rantings



Shouldn't you be appreciating yourself in the mirror?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well where are you getting this idea that I'm an Irish Republican fetishist?


I'm going to watch joe root get a double century on his debut as captain. This is a waste of my time.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> I'm going to watch joe root get a double century on his debut as captain. This is a waste of my time.



I'm pleased I wasted your time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Krtek's thread hijacks now a blissful memory compared to your rantings


(((((((Magnus McGinty))))))) 

mib, that's particularly harsh


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm not telling anyone to be quiet. I)





Magnus McGinty said:


> Dude, you're too new. Piss off, yeah?





Magnus McGinty said:


> Just fuck off.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> (((((((Magnus McGinty)))))))
> 
> mib, that's particularly harsh



But fair


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm pleased I wasted your time.



Noble endeavour 



Magnus McGinty said:


> Shouldn't you be appreciating yourself in the mirror?



What?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

And now he's jinxed joe root.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> m I'm just pointing out that there's *lots of glee about it as it's confirmed their suspicions *(based on what, if not social class?)



Show us all where this happened.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Show us all where this happened.



It's all over social media, which I mentioned in the conversation I supposedly can't remember.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's all over social media, which I mentioned in the conversation I supposedly can't remember.



Ah. So it's for others to do the tedious task of cutting and pasting/linking individual posts, but you can't be arsed right?



Magnus McGinty said:


> Shouldn't you be appreciating yourself in the mirror?



What the fuck is this?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Interview with the organiser where he cleverly conceals being a racist.
> 
> Meet the FLA.


Shame why they didn't ask him why he chose such a fucking stupid and divisive name.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Meet the man behind Britain’s new street movement (with a difference)
> 
> Proper salt of the earth working class these football lads.





> ...which saw up to 10,000 men, women and children bring central London to a standstill


It didn't bring London to a standstill and good luck finding all those women and children.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm not telling anyone to be quiet. I'm just pointing out that there's lots of glee about it as it's confirmed their suspicions (based on what, if not social class?)


Ah, we're back to this unverifiable  fantasy 'glee' of yours again.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Ah, we're back to this unverifiable  fantasy 'glee' of yours again.



It's all over social media


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's all over social media, which I mentioned in the conversation I supposedly can't remember.


That's on a par with "my PM box is full of people saying I'm right.' All sorts of opinions are all over social media all of the time. You trying to claim that _all the lefties_ are all _saying the same thing_ is a huge stinking pile of total fucking bullshit. Add in your comment that not only are they agreeing but they're doing it in a 'gleeful' manner and your argument becomes pure stupid comedy gold.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

As we here Magnus McGinty, can you explain your repeated description of me as 'preening' on here, as well as the 'admiring yourself in front of the mirror' comment, and their relevance to this thread. 

Cheers.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> As we here Magnus McGinty, can you explain your repeated description of me as 'preening' on here, as well as the 'admiring yourself in front of the mirror' comment, and their relevance to this thread.
> 
> Cheers.


That's all over social media as well.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

You're a thick cunt Magnus


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> As we here Magnus McGinty, can you explain your repeated description of me as 'preening' on here, as well as the 'admiring yourself in front of the mirror' comment, and their relevance to this thread.
> 
> Cheers.



I'm surprised you'd forgotten where it started. 



MadeInBedlam said:


> Thing is I do think I'm handsome (if I may say), I'm not sure if beard/stubble accentuates or hides that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You're a thick cunt Magnus



Charming.

And that isn't me.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Charming.
> 
> And that isn't me.



It really is.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

> I might look at slightly rebranding the group as we expand to something like *Football Lads Alliance in association with Football Family Alliance*


SSSSSSS-nappy!

This is the guy they want to get onboard and be a figurehead for the movement:



"If you turn up for a demo and holding a placard....you go back to where you came from or you're locked up"..


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm surprised you'd forgotten where it started.



Yeah 4 months ago, when asked if I still had a beard, i commented that I don't. 

You're well weird.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> It really is.



And whilst calling me thick. Brilliant.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And whilst calling me thick. .



You're getting that a lot aren't you?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 7, 2017)

Phil Campion- fucking hell. You want a mercenary and wife beater to lead your org ?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm surprised you'd forgotten where it started.



Classy stuff from Magnus here, to bring stuff from the health/relationships forum to here. 

What's it got to do with the thread Magnus?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> You're getting that a lot aren't you?



Not in the real world. The one that matters.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm surprised you'd forgotten where it started.


Don't bring up  out of context quotes from the community forums please.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not in the real world. The one that matters.


 
Hmmm


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Classy stuff from Magnus here, to bring stuff from the health/relationships forum to here.



Missssss, can you give him detention?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Don't bring up  out of context quotes from the community forums please.



I was answering his question but obviously he was just shit stirring and not interested in the answer.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not in the real world. The one that matters.


What's your opinion on Phil Campion's take on removing the right to free speech?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Missssss, can you give him detention?



Wow. 

So why are you bringing up your weird beef about my appearance here then? Come on, I've already asked.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I was answering his question but obviously he was just shit stirring and not interested in the answer.



Er so you weren't making creepy 'preening' etc comments then?

How are they relevant to the thread?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Wow.
> 
> So why are you bringing up your weird beef about my appearance here then? Come on, I've already asked.



Not falling for this a second time.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not falling for this a second time.



Nope. You've brought in a creepy personal beef to here. Why?

Why is a post (as unmanly as it was) about my appearance (several months ago) in the 'post a photo of yourself thread' relevant to a discussion about the FLA?

No need to pull stuff from other forums. Just have a spine and explain why you brought it into here.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Nope. You've brought in a creepy personal beef to here. Why?



Stick to the topic like you suggested please.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Stick to the topic like you suggested please.



Spineless cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not falling for this a second time.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Spineless cunt.



I'm putting you on ignore for a bit so you can get over your obsession.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Shame why they didn't ask him why he chose such a fucking stupid and divisive name.



Football Lads Alliance?

Stupid and divisive? Why?

Seems to me it does exactly what it says on the tin. It's for (ex)hoolies. Lads. Geezers. As in not for the whole family. Not for pencil-necks.

Their slogan is apparently 'No racism, no violence'.

And he also outlines his desire to see it broaden out.

If it keeps 'Lads' out of the clutches of the likes of the EDL (gives an alternative means of expressing anger and disquiet other than flag-waving and drunken mayhem) what exactly is your problem?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Instead of attempting to police others, why not just stick me on ignore if you're so averse to being challenged?






Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm putting you on ignore for a bit so you can get over your obsession.



Only took 6 pages


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Football Lads Alliance?
> 
> Stupid and divisive? Why?
> 
> Seems to me it does exactly what it says on the tin. It's for (ex)hoolies. Lads. As in not for the whole family. Not for pencil-necks.



I've not heard 'lads' used as gender neutral.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Football Lads Alliance?
> 
> Stupid and divisive? Why?
> 
> Seems to me it does exactly what it says on the tin. It's for (ex)hoolies. Lads. As in not for the whole family. Not for pencil-necks.



a football lad recently


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

I thought that would be a link to video of said 503 keepy uppies


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Bet he told his mates he can do a loop the loop on the swing as well

ETA shows what I know


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Football Lads Alliance?
> ?


Sidestepping the obvious negative association between lads and hoolies, choosing a name that specifically excluded 50% of the population wouldn't seem the greatest way to start a 'mass movement.'

What do you think of that SAS bloke's comments, btw? You know, the bloke they want to have onboard and be something of a figurehead for the movement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I thought that would be a link to video of said 503 keepy uppies


British football-mad lad, 8, does 503 keepy-uppies in amazing footage


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm putting you on ignore for a bit so you can get over your obsession.


What's your opinion on Phil Campion's take on removing the right to free speech?

Or is that just another piffling trifle to be brushed aside, just like that fucking rampant racist twat who was also being promoted by the FLA?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> What's your opinion on Phil Campion's take on removing the right to free speech?
> 
> Or is that just another piffling trifle to be brushed aside, just like that fucking rampant racist twat who was also being promoted by the FLA?



I don't have an opinion as I haven't seen it (I'm at work at the mo)


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't have an opinion as I haven't seen it (I'm at work at the mo)


He thinks that anyone who goes to a lawful demo and holds up a placard he doesn't like should be 'sent back to where they came from' or be locked up. Is that the kind of thing you like?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> He thinks that anyone who goes to a lawful demo and holds up a placard he doesn't like should be 'sent back to where they came from' or be locked up. Is that the kind of thing you like?


His lot are doing a demo on the 5th august. I wonder if magnum will be there to belt the national anthem out?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> His lot are doing a demo on the 5th august,. I wonder if magnum will be there to belt the national anthem out?


I could be wrong, but I suspect the police will say no thanks to their kind offer of setting up "an unarmed Home Guard."


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> He thinks that anyone who goes to a lawful demo and holds up a placard he doesn't like should be 'sent back to where they came from' or be locked up. Is that the kind of thing you like?



Of course not.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 7, 2017)

That march is being hawked by the BNP and various fellow travellers - as well as a range of closed FB groups for veterans and suchlike.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> His lot are doing a demo on the 5th august. I wonder if magnum will be there to belt the national anthem out?



How does that square with your insistence of me being a Republican fetishist then?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> How does that square with your insistence of me being a Republican fetishist then?


Squares? It highlights the confusion that you've led yourself into.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course not.


Well that's the kind of person the FLA has stated that they want to get onboard.  So what does that say to you?

I know you've tried to brush aside their racist 'hero' who spits on black people and calls them 'apes,' but now that they've stated that they'd like this SAS guy to be a representative for their movement, what are your feelings about that? Anything troubling you, yet?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Squares? It highlights the confusion that you've led yourself into.



Me not dismissing 10,000 people as racists means I'm now a patriot? Someone's definitely confused but it isn't me.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me not dismissing 10,000 people as racists means I'm now a patriot? Someone's definitely confused but it isn't me.


Please produce a single post from here where anyone has "dismissed 10,000 people as racists."

PS "All over social media" does not count as an answer.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me not dismissing 10,000 people as racists means I'm now a patriot? Someone's definitely confused but it isn't me.


Jesus effin christ. Every post you made about the FLA and it's organisers post-larner exposure also applies to this other lot - who you wouldn't touch with  a shitty bargepole. That's your confusion. And no one has said 10 000 racists or that the FLA grouping entire is racist. That's what your identity politics addled mind wants people to have said. Which, i suspect is one of the sources of your confusion. What's actually been said is that this exposure of a racist twat offers the fla organisers and supporters and opportunity to publicly distance themselves from it/him/them - and it might also offer you the opp to think about what a crude understanding of class solidarity can lead to. This sort of caricature of what a class analysis is is  brain-bendingly stupid.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

This right wing racist shitbucket *hearts* the FLA. Read the caption to his video on You Tube at your peril.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Please produce a single post from here where anyone has "dismissed 10,000 people as racists."
> 
> PS "All over social media" does not count as an answer.



Why not? The left don't just exist on urban75.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why not? The left don't just exist on urban75.


They seem to be a spectre haunting your mind.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why not? The left don't just exist on urban75.


yeh. but you're arguing with people here, not people elsewhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me not dismissing 10,000 people as racists means I'm now a patriot? Someone's definitely confused but it isn't me.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but you're arguing with people here, not people elsewhere.



I'm fairly certain other topics get discussed that aren't on the boards, like anything in the news.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> This right wing racist shitbucket *hearts* the FLA. Read the caption to his video on You Tube at your peril.




Another stick to beat them with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm fairly certain other topics get discussed that aren't on the boards, like anything in the news.


if you can't produce a post to substantiate your point then perhaps the point is a flimsy one. not your finest hour, mm. and i take no pleasure in saying that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if you can't produce a post to substantiate your point then perhaps the point is a flimsy one. not your finest hour, mm. and i take no pleasure in saying that.



Of course me saying "me not dismissing 10,000 people as racist" isn't me saying "someone on urban75 has dismissed 10,000 people as racist (or anywhere else)"


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why not? The left don't just exist on urban75.


Because you're repeatedly making the claim here in a discussion with other posters. So who here is dismissing "10,000 people as racists"?

Anyone? Or just some random unspecified person on social media?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but you're arguing with people in your head



Ftfy


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Because you're repeatedly making the claim here in a discussion with other posters. So who here is dismissing "10,000 people as racists"?
> 
> Anyone? Or just some random unspecified person on social media?



Point to where I claimed this.


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Another stick to beat them with.


You have no concerns to see the far right enthusiastically endorsing this? You don't think at this point it would be wise for the organisers to start distancing themselves from the racist fucknut they wanted to lead the match, the 'lock 'em all up' SAS man they want to get on board and the far right looking to associate themselves with this?

And if they're not doing that, what kind of message do you think that gives out?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Point to where I claimed this.


Your memory seems to be conveniently failing you at this point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course me saying "me not dismissing 10,000 people as racist" isn't me saying "someone on urban75 has dismissed 10,000 people as racist (or anywhere else)"


this entire sorry exchange between you and editor and butchers is barking mad: and it's not them who're loons! it's not just this post, it's the other however many you've made too, you should reread the exchange and think about what's being said. if you can't give it the attention now have a look later on.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

editor said:


> You have no concerns to see the far right enthusiastically endorsing this? You don't think at this point it would be wise for the organisers to start distancing themselves from the racist fucknut they wanted to lead the match, the 'lock 'em all up' SAS man they want to get on board and the far right looking to associate themselves with this?
> 
> And if they're not doing that, what kind of message do you think that gives out?



Of course the far right are going to rub their hands with glee. The FLA have stated they don't want them involved.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> this entire sorry exchange between you and editor and butchers is barking mad: and it's not them who're loons! it's not just this post, it's the other however many you've made too, you should reread the exchange and think about what's being said. if you can't give it the attention now have a look later on.



I'd rather not spend another moment on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'd rather not spend another moment on it.


just put the thread on ignore then


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Of course the far right are going to rub their hands with glee. The FLA have stated they don't want them involved.


Yet they invite a frothing uber racist to lead the march (and say nothing to condemn him when that disgusting video is allover the mainstream media) and then reach out to a right wing 'lock 'em all up' squaddie to represent them. And then you wonder why people have doubts?


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 7, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Football Lads Alliance?
> 
> Stupid and divisive? Why?
> 
> ...


I've asked why that's so hard to comprehend several times with no answer Liam 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> I've asked why that's so hard to comprehend several times with no answer Liam
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk



Which assertion is so hard to comprehend? Several people have responded to the post you quoted


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> I've asked why that's so hard to comprehend several times with no answer Liam


Err, I answered it very directly. Be sure to address any of my points you don't agree with.


Oh and please edit your app to get rid of that annoying tapatalk advert. There's a thread on that here.


----------



## juice_terry (Jul 7, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Which assertion is so hard to comprehend? Several people have responded to the post you quoted


The continuous question being posed by editor as to why this is called Football Lads Alliance and his constant bemoaning that women and children aren't involved 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Shechemite (Jul 7, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> The continuous question being posed by editor as to why this is called Football Lads Alliance and his constant bemoaning that women and children aren't involved



So what is it that's so hard to comprehend? What questions haven't been answered?


----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

juice_terry said:


> The continuous question being posed by editor as to why this is called Football Lads Alliance and his constant bemoaning that women and children aren't involved


Perhaps you could produce a list of these "continuous" posts where I'm constantly "bemoaning that women and children aren't involved." Thanks awfully. 

In fact, I just suggested that it's a stupid name which, by definition, excludes around 50% of the population. Others may be put off by the common associations between the word 'lads' and hooligans as well. It certainly put me off. I'm not interested in blokey hoolie-sounding marches led by a steaming racist, but hey! Maybe I'm just being a bit too sensitive!


----------



## friedaweed (Jul 7, 2017)

Balbi said:


> It's proper naughty in here.
> View attachment 110929


Shirley you mean nawty


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

friedaweed said:


> Shirley you mean nawty


----------



## LiamO (Jul 7, 2017)

Red Action - and indeed AFA - would never have come into being without 'football lads'.

Of the originals, Mickey & Joe Reilly were leading Cockney Reds back in the heyday of mass football hooliganism (the late 70's). They brought many fighters with them. Most of the Manchester Squad were football hoolies/fighters. Jimmy was Chelsea. All the Welwyn lads were West Ham/ICF.

If it wasn't for the refuge afforded by the White Horse in Islington in the early days which, both in terms of our social lives and (more importantly) gave the new-born Red Action a base from which to carry out the campaign against the NF at Chapel Market, who knows how it would have turned out. Most pub gaffers would have turfed us out early doors - we were afterall waging a war of attrition against a mob who frequented a pub 600 yards away. But the White Horse was run by Ronnie Parish, an East-end boy and former Spurs Hoolie legend, who welcomed us. Ronnie was certainly not the most politically correct man on the planet, but he was an ex-Shop Steward at the Post Office, hated the Fash and he certainly loved a row.

Later (in what might be descibed as the 'Casual' era) we had people who had been involved in football hooliganism with Man U, Celtic, West Ham, Spurs, Arsenal, QPR, Man City, Millwall, Palace, Liverpool, Everton, Cardiff, Villa, Sunderland, Dundee, Hibs and many more.

Quite a few had flirted with the far-right. Some had been members of the NF and BM.

Often these comrades brought people with them who were only starting on their political journey. To us they were diamonds in the rough. Most of the left regarded them with horror. Yes they were more than a bit macho. Yes they could hold old-fashioned/right-wing views on all kinds of things. Yes they the used language of the time, language that these days would be instantly denounced as sexist, homophobic and even racist - and was all of those to us even back then. Yes, some of them were crazy bastards, but they were _our_ crazy bastards

But they were all, at heart, anti-Fascist. And they were consistently prepared to put their physical safety and their liberty on the line. And we were damned glad to have them.

Over a period of time - and exposure to political debate and discussion - most of them developed politically or went their own way. Allowances would regularly have to be made for newer comrades. Very few arrived 'fully-formed'. Their was very little finger-wagging (from us anyway), virtually no lecturing. Mostly a quiet word over a pint and loads of piss-taking - osmosis even.

If you are in regular contact with people you know and trust and enjoy being with, but your choice of language and behaviour is problematic then eventually you either change/develop or you fuck off.

Much of what AFA's atrategy was based on doing the hard yards - of actually engaging with and winning over the potential _*recruits*_ of the racists and the far-Right. Nearly all the liberal/traditional Left's work and propaganda was aimed fairly and squarely at the _*victims.
*_
The left always looked at football hoolies / football firms as the enemy, as beyond the pale.

It was a mistake then.

It is a mistake now.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)




----------



## editor (Jul 7, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Red Action - and indeed AFA - would never have come into being without 'football lads'.
> 
> Of the originals, Mickey & Joe Reilly were leading Cockney Reds back in the heyday of mass football hooliganism (the late 70's). They brought many fighters with them. Most of the Manchester Squad were football hoolies/fighters. Jimmy was Chelsea. All the Welwyn lads were West Ham/ICF.
> 
> ...


I never saw it that way at all. When I did my Football Fans against the Criminal Justice Act campaign, I tried to reach out to as many fans as possible, primarily through the fanzine network. 

That said , there was no shortage of SWP etc types trying to muscle in on what I was doing once I started to get national press.

I told them all to fuck off


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 7, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Red Action - and indeed AFA - would never have come into being without 'football lads'.
> 
> Of the originals, Mickey & Joe Reilly were leading Cockney Reds back in the heyday of mass football hooliganism (the late 70's). They brought many fighters with them. Most of the Manchester Squad were football hoolies/fighters. Jimmy was Chelsea. All the Welwyn lads were West Ham/ICF.
> 
> ...


Only really works as a a response to magnum's posts if a number of conditions apply. The main one being that people asking questions are some effete group of poshoes. A second strong one is that people seeking out a militant anti-fascist group to get active with are comparable to either the FLA organisers or supporters or the more obviously church and king mob of  the august 5hyn lot.

To tie - as mangum Pi has tried to do - that into some sort of anti-w/c class bis via roy larner is to deny the history and traditions of AFA etc fucking off w/c racists.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Red Action - and indeed AFA - would never have come into being without 'football lads'.
> 
> Of the originals, Mickey & Joe Reilly were leading Cockney Reds back in the heyday of mass football hooliganism (the late 70's). They brought many fighters with them. Most of the Manchester Squad were football hoolies/fighters. Jimmy was Chelsea. All the Welwyn lads were West Ham/ICF.
> 
> ...


I don't think all hoolies are the same, some of my best comrades have been hoolies! And I appreciate we're all somewhere on a political journey. But it is difficult to see the FLA as a wholly positive force with some of the major actors in it, or with yer man leading the march. It is my suspicion - yet to be confirmed - the FLA will prove to be a patriotic or similar avenue towards radical right activism in a more subtle way than the EDL, that many people who attended the last protest will be repelled by the revelations about larner, but that some others will be attracted by them. Judgment reserved: but I am not confident the FLA is all it is portrayed as by its proponents


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## LiamO (Jul 8, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> But it is difficult to see the FLA as a wholly positive force with some of the major actors in it, or with yer man leading the march.



I don't think they know what it is themselves yet. That's the point. It's all up for grabs.

But it seems to me that the left would rather hold their noses and point fingers than actually engage with the heavy lifting and try to channel that anger and energy.



Pickman's model said:


> Judgment reserved: but I am not confident the FLA is all it is portrayed as by its proponents




If all the Left does is point fingers and dismiss them as racists then its already a self-fulfilling prophesy.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 8, 2017)

Poor old Roy.

Even his dogs were embarrassed to fuck. Trying to drag him home.

I don't think I've ever seen two big, fighty dogs look so completely uninterested in a fight.


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## LiamO (Jul 8, 2017)

Regarding heavy lifting.

1. On January 2nd 1988 Mark Walters, the first black player rangers had ever signed (about 50 years after Celtic had signed theirs IIRC) played at Celtic Park for the first time. He was subjected to monkey chants and loads of bananas were thrown on the pitch by some (well lots actually) of the Celtic support.

This event shocked Celtic fans out of their traditional comfort zone, ie thinking that all the bigots were at the Away end.

A small group of young Celtic fans, led by framed btw, decided this simply was not happening on their turf and immediately started a campaign to drive this nonsense out of Celtic Park. Even allowing for the favourable historical conditions for anti-racism/anti-fascism amongst the Celtic support - and indeed the fact that these actions were based mostly in ignorance rather than any notions of racial superiority - it was no easy task for a bunch of kids to front up to angry, drunk, grown men ... but they did it anyway.

They did it through consistently challenging individuals and groups on the terraces and in the pubs. They mostly did it through conversation and debate. But that was not always possible. Anti-racist/anti-Fascist Celtic fans quickly got themselves organised and wiped out the nonsense in jig time. And they never let it return.

2. Soon after, the 'english disease' of Casual footie firms arrived north of the border big-style. rangers had their ICF and Hibs had their Firm. Celtic scarfers were getting it from all sides. But Celtic fans had traditionally turned their noses up at 'Casuals' and footbal hooliganism. Indeed the term 'Casual' was mostly used as a term of abuse around Parkhead.

Clearly something had to be done, but Celtic fans were determined that the, by then, traditional right-wing ethos of most football firms would not be part of their club. So Framed and other politically-minded Celts decided that if this is (inevitably) coming to our club, it is coming on our (anti-Fascist/pro-Republican) terms and became the bedrock of the Celtic Soccer Crew. Lots of angry, young working class kids became switched on to class politics, not _despite_, but _because_ of their involvement with the CSC. Jim Slaven and his mates did similar sterling work at Hibs.

Turning their noses up and remaining aloof was not an option. Not engaging with the kids because they did not use the most politically correct language when they first arrived was not an option. Consistent, principled enagagement was their chosen option. And besides, years of political organising had given them a very useful skillset for the hoolie world.

I don't know if Thommo posts on here but juice_terry could fill you in on much more detail.

Then last year on here - around the Celtic Vs Clapton Clownshoes fiasco - a little pack of pencil-necked lightweights had the cheek to dismiss Framed as a 'keyboard warrior'.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 8, 2017)

By the way, instead of trying to understand the point(s) he was making, several posters have attributed positions to Magnus McGinty that I simply don't see him as holding at all. Neither does juice_terry. Then you have attacked these strawmen. 

Therefore I won't be debating on those terms. They are just bollocks.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2017)




----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2017)

LiamO said:


> I don't think they know what it is themselves yet. That's the point. It's all up for grabs.


But surely you can see that a few timely, strongly worded statements from the FLA would REALLY help remove any lingering doubts about their aims.

So far the "lads" have associated themselves with a frothing racist nutjob and a squaddie who wants to randomly lock up 'the wrong' Muslims engaging in peaceful protest.


----------



## mather (Jul 8, 2017)

editor said:


> Perhaps you could produce a list of these "continuous" posts where I'm constantly "bemoaning that women and children aren't involved." Thanks awfully.
> 
> In fact, I just suggested that it's a stupid name which, by definition, excludes around 50% of the population. Others may be put off by the common associations between the word 'lads' and hooligans as well. It certainly put me off. I'm not interested in blokey hoolie-sounding marches led by a steaming racist, but hey! Maybe I'm just being a bit too sensitive!



Then why don't you say the same about antifa? They are made up of young men, lad if you will, who get into fights and many members of the general public see them as little more than hooligans. I'm not even having a go at antifa over that cos unlike some I don't see that as a 'problem'.

When confronting the far right (domestic or islamist) whom have a track record of violence, do you really want the counter movement to have children and the elderly in it's ranks putting them in harms way?


----------



## chilango (Jul 8, 2017)

One thing, a crucial thing, LiamO didnt really emphasise enough in his RA/AFA origin story is the far-left pedigree of key players at the start. There was experience and direction there. The "lads" were coming into a group with a clear sense of purpose and with a strong political partisanship.

Is that present in the FLA?


----------



## Casually Red (Jul 8, 2017)

LiamO said:


> I don't think they know what it is themselves yet. That's the point. It's all up for grabs.
> 
> But it seems to me that the left would rather hold their noses and point fingers than actually engage with the heavy lifting and try to channel that anger and energy.
> 
> ...



If I was to have a bet on this I'd say it'll end up as a self fulfilling prophesy . In that what you've described above as regards RA etc simply doesn't exist any more to any significant extent . I'd agree it's up for grabs to an extent but there's only one side who stand a chance of grabbing it . Left wing " culture " has shifted so far from its roots...the working class industrial base...and gone so far up its own arse that successful engagement
strikes me as highly unlikely . Engagement would be key in this but who's capable of that today ?? . I'd love to be proven wrong mind .

Over in Europe I've seen very similar to what you were talking about in action . Football fans with hard left anti fascists on one side...hairy arses, not the black bloc types..and fash on the other . In between a broad mass of ultras, who might veer between one or other faction at different times . With the broader antifa bloc having long before written that particular scene off as a lost cause .noses turned up and aloof..mind you this constituency were a particularly anti social bunch of cunts .

Various people had plugged away for years engaging with varying degrees of success , a constant uphill battle . But from what I can tell these days they've just given up . Key to that failure from what i could decipher was the wider culture of " anti fascism " itself in the current era . That it seemed to be on a different planet from the life experiences and outlook of the constituency that was up for grabs . The self fulfilling prophesy came true . Especially after the likes of cologne , but even for a few years before that . But from what I could detect there was a distinct " turn off " factor from today's anti fascist scene as regards the ultras that hadn't been there in the past . I'm not a sociologist so I'm not even going to attempt to decipher exactly what it is . Regardless though it wasn't fit for purpose when it came to that particular constituency . Not any more . Something had definitely shifted in recent years . Maybe people just got old and tired too .


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2017)

chilango said:


> One thing, a crucial thing, LiamO didnt really emphasise enough in his RA/AFA origin story is the far-left pedigree of key players at the start. There was experience and direction there. The "lads" were coming into a group with a clear sense of purpose and with a strong political partisanship.
> 
> Is that present in the FLA?


nope but the point made in post 406 is one about the potential for intervention.


----------



## chilango (Jul 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> nope but the point made in post 406 is one about the potential for intervention.



Intervention by who? 

for what end?


----------



## chilango (Jul 8, 2017)

I wonder if there are serious limitations to drawing comparisons between RA/AFA (and the "lads*" aspect of their work) and the FLA.

For one, fascists and anti-fascists were both present and fighting within that milieu. LiamO mentions that they counted within their number those who had flirted with, or had even been active within, the far-right.

Is this the case with jihadis** and the FLA. are jihadis running with firms? Ex-jihadis hooking up with the FLA? 

Where's the relationship or encounter on the ground?

For another, anti-fascists and the far-left that became RA et al. were already in and amongst the "lads".

Are they now?

I dunno.

It might be tempting to a) Envision anti fascism extending to combat jihadism and b) recall the role the "lads" played in earlier anti-fascist struggles and hope that that might happen again.

I'm just not sure the conditions are similar enough.

I do stand to be corrected by those closer to this stuff today though.

*obviously shorthand for a more accurate term
**ditto


----------



## bimble (Jul 8, 2017)

Has anybody here had access to the facebook network that was able to call so many people out for that march, to know what the message was that got the participants motivated ?


----------



## editor (Jul 8, 2017)

mather said:


> Then why don't you say the same about antifa? They are made up of young men, lad if you will, who get into fights and many members of the general public see them as little more than hooligans. I'm not even having a go at antifa over that cos unlike some I don't see that as a 'problem'.


They're not claiming to represent football fans, neither do they put forward screaming racists and 'lock 'em all up' ex-squaddies to represent their movement. Moreover, the FLA is, no doubt, formed of supporters on both left and right extremes, so it's hardly comparable.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 9, 2017)

Looks like Bitchers was right all along that me, Magnus McGinty and juice_terry have completely misunderstood what Red Action's view on the FLA would have been. We stand corrected and are suitably contrite


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

I usually appreciate his analysis, to be fair, but it hasn't been much use here.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Only really works as a a response to magnum's posts if a number of conditions apply. The main one being that people asking questions are some effete group of poshoes.



Or online gobshites.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 9, 2017)

So far , they've only done the one event. It wasn't particularly provocative, more like a peace vigil. It wasn't opposed by anyone on the ground. "Wait and see" seems the logical way to go. 

However given what happened in Manchester on the 5th, it would be foolish to totally dismiss the possibility that this movement or part of it could go on to be EDL MK 2.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

And maybe they'll become that if both the left and right are pushing them to be that.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 9, 2017)

Crap movement if they can't determine their own politics.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 9, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Crap movement if they can't determine their own politics.



At the moment their politics seem to just to march and lobby the government to crack down harder on jihadists.

We'll find out more if and when there's another terrorist attack and they call a response to it.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 9, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> At the moment their politics seem to just to march and lobby the government to crack down harder on jihadists.
> 
> We'll find out more if and when there's another terrorist attack and they call a response to it.



See the post above mine.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> At the moment their politics seem to just to march and lobby the government to crack down harder on jihadists.
> 
> We'll find out more if and when there's another terrorist attack and they call a response to it.



And if there's another terrorist attack and the left don't call a response to it. And instead call a response to those calling a response to it.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And if there's another terrorist attack and the left don't call a response to it.


Yeh. Let's wait and see who the attack's by first eh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 9, 2017)

wondered about the width of neck allowed. Liam speaks of 'no pencil necks'. Whose pencil are we using as measurement here? My head is on a cocktail stick, but surely wider necks than mine will suffice. Its not the width of the neck, its what you do with it


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Let's wait and see who the attack's by first eh.



You're very aggressive about this mate, which I'm surprised about. I always assumed your politics were nuanced.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You're very aggressive about this mate, which I'm surprised about. I always assumed your politics were nuanced.


They are.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> They are.



I don't see any evidence of you suggesting organising against Islamist Fascists being a good thing but I'm happy to be corrected.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

*taps watch*


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't see any evidence of you suggesting organising against Islamist Fascists being a good thing but I'm happy to be corrected.


Yeh. So when you say terrorist you mean Islamist. Cheers.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. So when you say terrorist you mean Islamist. Cheers.



In the context of how the FLA came about.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 9, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> In the context of how the FLA came about.



No other terrorism going on then


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

Maybe if the far right were blowing up kids at concerts they'd let that slide?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 9, 2017)

There is no far right terrorism in this country then? Yes/no?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 9, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> We'll find out more if and when there's another terrorist attack and they call a response to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe if the far right were blowing up kids at concerts they'd let that slide?





Magnus McGinty said:


> In the context of how the FLA came about.


You don't think we'd learn anything from their response to another Finsbury Park


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't think we'd learn anything from their response to another Finsbury Park



AFAIK, the left don't have a response to that either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> AFAIK, the left don't have a response to that either.


Not sure how you know the FLA response will be no response.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure how you know the FLA response will be no response.



Well I know your response will be no response.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well I know your response will be no response.


What about tomorrow night's lottery numbers?


----------



## emanymton (Jul 10, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And if there's another terrorist attack and the left don't call a response to it. And instead call a response to those calling a response to it.


Exactly what response to a terrorist attack should the left call in your opinion?


----------



## bimble (Jul 10, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Exactly what response to a terrorist attack should the left call in your opinion?


This is the thing. Every time MM posts on this all I see him saying is "Something must be done about these terrorists! The Football Lads are doing something therefore that is good". It's just daft. Unless he thinks that the FLA marching around is likely in some way to reduce the chances of another islamist-inspired attack happening in which case he's stupider than I thought.


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Exactly what response to a terrorist attack should the left call in your opinion?



Probably not an A-B march.


----------



## newbie (Jul 10, 2017)

chilango said:


> Probably not an A-B march.


no, nor tearing up (what's left of) civil liberties.  Control orders & TPIMs are already in place (fwiw, put there by a Labour government). New jails are being built.  As I said above the 'left', well Corbyn, has demanded an extra 20,000 police. The harder left response to that, along with armed police on the streets, increased security services, increased surveillance etc, even the response to military intervention abroad, has been muted or non-existent. ie the approach to Islamist terrorism seems pretty much consistent across the political spectrum, until you get to the _deport them all_ types.  Unusually for such a major issue (and unlike previous campaigns of terrorism here) this is not a left-right battleground.

It's all very well saying '_something must be done_' but quite what response is being asked for is not at all clear.  What exactly is the class based, materially focused, response to individual or small cell acts of terrorism ideologically inspired from abroad that 99.9999% of the population are massively opposed to?


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

Or to ask it a different way....

If most of us here are _broadly_ in favour of the RA/AFA/IWCA approach to anti-fascism (and if anyone isn't, apologies) then *what can be done, that isn't already being done*, to extend that to domestic jihadi stuff?


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

That Red Action facebook post is a bit odd - it talks about adopting a 'wait and see' view, and suggests posters on this thread have dismissed the FLA as 'islamophobic'. 

Surely the discussion on this thread is exactly _how_ you 'wait and see' in situations like this? I've seen little dismissal, and none whatsoever on the basis of islamophobia - scepticism, perhaps... but I think that's fairly reasonable considering.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> That Red Action facebook post is a bit odd - it talks about adopting a 'wait and see' view, and suggests posters on this thread have dismissed the FLA as 'islamophobic'.
> 
> Surely the discussion on this thread is exactly _how_ you 'wait and see' in situations like this? I've seen little dismissal, and none whatsoever on the basis of islamophobia - scepticism, perhaps... but I think that's fairly reasonable considering.



I think they're a bit lost unless they can claim to be in sole possession of the truth.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

There's some good points in there tbh - just a bit weird to get in some digs against posters on this thread for having opinions they don't appear to have - almost as if whoever wrote that post hasn't actually read the thread. Ironic, considering the topic.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> There's some good points in there tbh - just a bit weird to get in some digs against posters on this thread for having opinions they don't appear to have - almost as if whoever wrote that post hasn't actually read the thread. Ironic, considering the topic.


I'm afraid it lost all credibility for me at that point. It's not pleasant seeing posters (and this discussion) being misrepresented so unfairly.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

I'd imagine that, instead of reading the whole 16-page thread, they'll have taken LiamO 's word about what he was responding to tbh. Not sure why Liam would want to misrepresent what was being said though. Maybe he could explain what's happened there?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> I'd imagine that, instead of reading the whole 16-page thread, they'll have taken LiamO 's word about what he was responding to tbh. Not sure why Liam would want to misrepresent what was being said though. Maybe he could explain what's happened there?



Indeed. I wonder why they've come to the conclusion that 



> Liam O penned the following in reply to those on the left-wing Urban 75 forum that have already written off the FLA as being racist and ‘Islamophobic’...


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

It couldn't be that Liam lied to his mates in Red Action about the content of this discussion to score cheap points against people here could it? Can't be.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 10, 2017)

Did they just chance upon your post LiamO?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> I'd imagine that, instead of reading the whole 16-page thread, they'll have taken LiamO 's word about what he was responding to tbh. Not sure why Liam would want to misrepresent what was being said though. Maybe he could explain what's happened there?


Yes, I'm looking forward to his explanation why he chose to deviously misrepresent people's views here.


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

A couple of things:

First - from the FB page in question - "RED ACTION NO LONGER EXISTS AS A FORMAL POLITICAL ORGANISATION. THIS PAGE IS EDITED BY FORMER MEMBERS OF RED ACTION". Worth just remembering that at this point.

Second - I think LiamO's post is a valid, and important, reminder of the role "football lads" have played in the past, and the importance of not dismissing stuff because of their involvement.

However, there seem to be different arguments getting mixed up here. Whether the FLA is racist/fascist etc. and should be opposed by anti-fascists versus whether jihadism is fascist and should be opposed by anti-fascists versus whether the FLA can oppose the jihadis in a similar manner to how the dash were opposed by RA/AFA in the 70s,80s and 90s versus a bunch of other stuff getting dragged into the mix.


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

Noticing my typo in the post above has led me to a wave of "inspiration"...

Baesh the Daesh

Anti-Daeshist Action

Beating the Daeshists 

...and so on.

You're welcome.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 10, 2017)

chilango said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> First - from the FB page in question - "RED ACTION NO LONGER EXISTS AS A FORMAL POLITICAL ORGANISATION. THIS PAGE IS EDITED BY FORMER MEMBERS OF RED ACTION". Worth just remembering that at this point.
> 
> ...



Anti fascists are already opposing Da'esh/ISIS by travelling to Syria and joining the YPG. Not enough is perhaps made of the fact that some people  who were scrapping with the EDL a couple of years ago are now advancing on Raqqa.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

chilango said:


> First - from the FB page in question - "RED ACTION NO LONGER EXISTS AS A FORMAL POLITICAL ORGANISATION. THIS PAGE IS EDITED BY FORMER MEMBERS OF RED ACTION". Worth just remembering that at this point.


So it's possibly just one person then and thus carries no more weight than someone posting here.


----------



## newbie (Jul 10, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Anti fascists are already opposing Da'esh/ISIS by travelling to Syria and joining the YPG. Not enough is perhaps made of the fact that some people  who were scrapping with the EDL a couple of years ago are now advancing on Raqqa.


I don't know the answer to this so don't shoot me, but is there any evidence that it's only anti-fascists doing that?  Is it possible that people on the EDL side of those protests are also advancing on Raqqa, (not necessarily in the same units)?


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> So it's possibly just one person then and thus carries no more weight than someone posting here.



I don't know.

That's the point.

It might be.

It might equally be a core of RA's cadre remain in touch and manage the FB page collectively.

Confirmation isn't really going to happen either way. Is it?


----------



## ddraig (Jul 10, 2017)

newbie said:


> I don't know the answer to this so don't shoot me, but is there any evidence that it's only anti-fascists doing that?  Is it possible that people on the EDL side of those protests are also advancing on Raqqa, (not necessarily in the same units)?


lol!! would love to see evidence of that, not been offered any in the past when brought the fact it is anti-fascists out there actually doing the do


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Anti fascists are already opposing Da'esh/ISIS by travelling to Syria and joining the YPG. Not enough is perhaps made of the fact that some people  who were scrapping with the EDL a couple of years ago are now advancing on Raqqa.



Not really a strategy that many anti-fascists in the U.K. can usefully adopt though is it?

Nor is it challenging the growth of jihadism in w/c communities here either is it?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

chilango said:


> I don't know.
> 
> That's the point.
> 
> ...


If they're producing as stuff as sloppy and as ill informed as that last piece, I'll be giving them a miss.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 10, 2017)

newbie said:


> I don't know the answer to this so don't shoot me, but is there any evidence that it's only anti-fascists doing that?  Is it possible that people on the EDL side of those protests are also advancing on Raqqa, (not necessarily in the same units)?



There have been right wingers out there. They guy who originally set Pegida up (Timothy Scott?) had been out there. Apparently some right wingers from the states have joined Iraqi Christian militias on finding out what a bunch of pinkoes the Kurds were!


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 10, 2017)

chilango said:


> Not really a strategy that many anti-fascists in the U.K. can usefully adopt though is it?
> 
> Nor is it challenging the growth of jihadism in w/c communities here either is it?



But it does illustrate pretty neatly where UK anti fascists stand on jihadism.  The myth on the right (and in some sections of the Left it seems) is that anti fascists are tolerant of jihadism for fear of being called racists. That is emphatically not the case.

In my case I always thought that standing together with victimised Muslims against the EDL was also an act against jihadism.


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> If they're producing as stuff as sloppy and as ill informed as that last piece, I'll be giving them a miss.



The piece itself is good, for what it is. A reminder from history that we should be mindful of in these discussions.

Its pitching it as a response to something that hasn't happened that's disappointing. And unnecessary.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

chilango said:


> The piece itself is good, for what it is. A reminder from history that we should be mindful of in these discussions.
> 
> Its pitching it as a response to something that hasn't happened that's disappointing. And unnecessary.


But by framing around a gross misrepresentation/personal beef, it renders the whole piece untrustworthy and easy to dismiss.


----------



## chilango (Jul 10, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> But it does illustrate pretty neatly where UK anti fascists stand on jihadism.  The myth on the right (and in some sections of the Left it seems) is that anti fascists are tolerant of jihadism for fear of being called racists. That is emphatically not the case.
> 
> In my case I always thought that standing together with victimised Muslims against the EDL was also an act against jihadism.



Again, I think there is confusion (not by you) at large here.

That undoubtedly sections of the Left have at times been too tolerant of Islamists ≠ Anti fascists are too tolerant of jihadism.

It's a lazy conflation. And a convenient one for some from all sides. Doesn't really stand up though, does it?


----------



## newbie (Jul 10, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> There have been right wingers out there. They guy who originally set Pegida up (Timothy Scott?) had been out there. Apparently some right wingers from the states have joined Iraqi Christian militias on finding out what a bunch of pinkoes the Kurds were!


cheers.  reinforces my thought that this really isn't that much of a left/right issue.  Except....



Red Sky said:


> But it does illustrate pretty neatly where UK anti fascists stand on jihadism.  The myth on the right (and in some sections of the Left it seems) is that anti fascists are tolerant of jihadism for fear of being called racists. That is emphatically not the case.
> 
> In my case I always thought that standing together with victimised Muslims against the EDL was also an act against jihadism.



yes.  Racists will be racist and try to exploit anything they can.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

chilango said:


> It might equally be a core of RA's cadre remain in touch and manage the FB page collectively.



correctomundo, so I believe.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> So it's possibly just one person then and thus carries no more weight than someone posting here.



lol


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> I'd imagine that, instead of reading the whole 16-page thread, they'll have taken LiamO 's word about what he was responding to tbh. Not sure why Liam would want to misrepresent what was being said though. Maybe he could explain what's happened there?



I spoke to no-one.

In fact I haven't spoken to anybody likely to be running that FB page in mebbe two years. I'm sure I was told who was modding it whenever it was set up. It popped up on my fb - as every post there does.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> It couldn't be that Liam lied to his mates in Red Action about the content of this discussion to score cheap points against people here could it? Can't be.



Cos they can't read themselves?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 10, 2017)

Do you think this is accurate LiamO 



> Liam O penned the following in reply to those on the left-wing Urban 75 forum that have already written off the FLA as being racist and ‘Islamophobic’...


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> Yes, I'm looking forward to his explanation why he chose to deviously misrepresent people's views here.



Pure fantasy.

And the whining about misrepresetation is a bit rich coming from some of the people on here who deliberately misrepresented Magnus McGinty's position


----------



## bimble (Jul 10, 2017)

Anyone who uses 'penned' is not worth taking seriously.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> And the whining about misrepresetation is a bit rich coming from some of the people on here who deliberately misrepresented Magnus McGinty's position



Lol


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Do you think this is accurate LiamO



This? _"Liam O penned the following in reply to those on the left-wing Urban 75 forum that have already written off the FLA as being racist "_

Absolutely.

This? ... _"and Islamophobic_"

Probably not so much.

That said perhaps you could all point me to where you all dissected and criticised this statement (post#9)

_"Up to 5,000 assorted Islamophobes, racists and fascists marched through central London today, mobilised by a rightwing coalition of football hooligan firms called the Football Lads Alliance."_

as a misrepresentation?



*“You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say” 
― Martin Luther*


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 10, 2017)

bimble said:


> Anyone who uses 'penned' is not worth taking seriously.



Unlike the chateratti who do nothing but opinion form here.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Cos they can't read themselves?


They didn't read anyone dismissing the FLA as 'Islamophobic' here, certainly.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> That said perhaps you could all point me to where you all dissected and criticised this statement (post#9)
> 
> _"Up to 5,000 assorted Islamophobes, racists and fascists marched through central London today, mobilised by a rightwing coalition of football hooligan firms called the Football Lads Alliance."_


Did anyone on urban say those words?  No? Then fuck off with your manufactured, dishonest misrepresentation. Why did you do it anyway? It's not like it's difficult to work out that you're making it up.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> They didn't read anyone dismissing the FLA as 'Islamophobic' here, certainly.



Hang on, nobody batted an eyelid when Butchers was full on attacking me with a way more disingenuous misrepresentation of me than what you claim RA are doing.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

No YOU fuck off.

How is it dishonest or misrepresentative to point out that somebody posted that shite and not one of you criticised it? At all.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Hang on, nobody batted an eyelid when Butchers was full on attacking me with a way more disingenuous misrepresentation of me than what you claim RA are doing.



Like when he accused you of adopting a 'good IRA name'? Lol

I don't know one Irish person called Magnus - let alone a Republican. Maybe he has the 'Ra confused with The Vikings?


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

Fuck me. Them Fenians are EVERYWHERE .

Just as well Inspector Bitchers was on the case, otherwise you might have gotten away with it too!




Magnus (Kalos)



McGinty


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> No YOU fuck off.
> 
> How is it dishonest or misrepresentative to point out that somebody posted that shite and not one of you criticised it? At all.


Wait, so your journalistic analysis is this: if people choose to ignore a quoted sentence in a fast moving thread, then by default - they must be _fully endorsing it_?


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

'Islamophobic', in speech marks like it was quotes from something someone posted here. I wonder why they did that, when no-one on the thread has said it?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Fuck me. Them Fenians are EVERWHERE .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the fuck are you doing posting up Pokeman characters? is this an attempt to divert attention from the mess you've made here?


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> Wait, so your journalistic analysis is this: if people choose to ignore a quoted sentence in a fast moving thread, then by default - they must be _fully endorsing it_?



It was post no.9 It was hardly 'fast moving ' back then was it?


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> 'Islamophobic', in speech marks like it was quotes from something someone posted here. I wonder why they did that, when no-one on the thread has said it?


Because he's happy to twist the truth to put this community in a bad light. It's quite shameful stuff, really. 

I hope he has the decency to apologise and edit that deceitfully inaccurate article.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you doing posting up Pokeman characters? is this an attempt to divert attention from the mess you've made here?




Bitchers accused Magnus McGinty of being a 'Republican fetishist' and said (on one onthe threads he linked to as evidence) that the name was chosen because it was a 'good IRA name'. 

That was his level of debate. Percfectly legitimate yto pint out that he made a complete cunt of himself.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> It was post no.9 It was hardly 'fast moving ' back then was it?


But *NO ONE on this site* made the comments that you're trying to attribute to them. They were quoted _from another site_ and that was clearly referenced by a _link in the same post._


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> 'Islamophobic', in speech marks like it was quotes from something someone posted here. I wonder why they did that, when no-one on the thread has said it?



Scare quotes don't always mean that, as you well know.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> 'Islamophobic', in speech marks like it was quotes from something someone posted here. I wonder why they did that, when no-one on the thread has said it?



Are you referring to me here?

Or the author of the RA fb post?


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

Why would I be referring to you? You didn't write it did you?


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> But *NO ONE on this site* made the comments that you're trying to attribute to them. They were quoted _from another site_ and that was clearly referenced by a _link in the same post._



I am not trying to attibute those remarks to anyone (other than the author(s) of the artcle).

I merely pointed out that nobody challenged them.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2017)

Anyway, I think it's a shame is all. There's a good debate to be had somewhere in all this.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

killer b said:


> Why would I be referring to you? You didn't write it did you?





LiamO said:


> This? ... _"and Islamophobic_"
> 
> Probably not so much.



just seeking a little clarity. Wouldn't want any misunderstanding.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> from the mess *you've* made here?




Lol.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

Have a good evening. I'm off to read to my daughter


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> I am not trying to attibute those remarks to anyone (other than the author(s) of the artcle).
> 
> I merely pointed out that nobody challenged them.


But that is no rational way to then assume _anything _of anyone reading it. It's lazy and thoroughly dishonest. Lack of a response does not equal tacit agreement, 

Loads of rubbish gets posted here every day. By your own stupid argument, unless you happen to have had the time or inclination to have challenged them, then your full support would be assumed, and you'd be happy for that to form the basis of an article published elsewhere.

Have some fucking balls and admit that you fucked up. You're trying to defend the indefensible.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> just seeking a little clarity. Wouldn't want any misunderstanding.


I'm seeking clarity too. 
Did you write the article YES/NO?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 10, 2017)

Have some consistency then with both the lies and abuse I got over several pages.


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 10, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Have some consistency then with both the lies and abuse I got over several pages.


 
Lol


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 10, 2017)

Exactly.


----------



## LiamO (Jul 10, 2017)

editor said:


> I'm seeking clarity too.
> Did you write the article YES/NO?



LOL. No I fuckin did not.


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

LiamO said:


> LOL. No I fuckin did not.


But you're still responsible for the inaccurate and misrepresentative comnment made about this site. Are you going to correct that now, or will you be sticking to your ridiculous and indefensible argument that a 'Lack of a response equals tacit agreement'?


----------



## framed (Jul 10, 2017)

I wrote the introduction to the article and I don't give a fuck what you whining cunts think. 

Toodlepip!


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 10, 2017)

> I wrote the introduction to the article



You're a fucking idiot then


----------



## editor (Jul 10, 2017)

framed said:


> I wrote the introduction to the article and I don't give a fuck what you whining cunts think.
> 
> Toodlepip!


So you're not bothered whether what you write is truthful or not?

'Nuff said.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2017)

editor said:


> So it's possibly just one person then and thus carries no more weight than someone posting here.


I guess this bit has been cleared up at least.


----------



## chilango (Jul 11, 2017)

[


LiamO said:


> This? _"Liam O penned the following in reply to those on the left-wing Urban 75 forum that have already written off the FLA as being racist "_
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> ...



I can't speak for anyone else, but my reading of post #9 was that it was posted as an example of a shit analysis. Given who wrote that analysis and their past actions (the Comrade Delta stuff) I'm not surprised to see nobody here spending time "dissecting" it. He has no defenders here afaik.

So to use the lack of discussion around that quote as implied agreement with it is - imo - unfair.

But, that said, I don't want to get sucked into some huge row about this. 

I'll repeat, I thought LiamO's post added something useful. My thoughts on this, and just as importantly on what it _doesn't_ address, are upthread.

It is a shame that the unnecessary/inaccurate digs added to it are distracting from this.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2017)

chilango said:


> [
> 
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else, but my reading of post #9 was that it was posted as an example of a shit analysis. Given who wrote that analysis and their past actions (the Comrade Delta stuff) I'm not surprised to see nobody here spending time "dissecting" it. He has no defenders here afaik.
> ...


He knows - that's just the only post that comes up when you search this thread for 'Islamophobic' (or was until the last couple of days).


----------



## bimble (Jul 11, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Unlike the chateratti who do nothing but opinion form here.


You are funny.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2017)

Pretty funny that within 24 hours of Liam bigging up framed in a post here, framed approvingly quotes Liam (anonymously) on the Red Action facebook account, which in turn gets used as if it's some kind of killer blow by Liam back here. Defo not some kind of tough lads circle-jerk going on there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Fuck me. Them Fenians are EVERYWHERE .


If only they were


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2017)

newbie said:


> you said something similar on the other thread.  What makes you sure people are actually worried about terrorism?
> 
> I'm not detecting any great direct personal worry about terrorists, seems to me people just carry on as normal, nor demand for any sort of response from either the left or the right.
> 
> ...



Sorry for the delay but had visitors , then lots of work to catch up on.

I can think of two occasions to do with 'terrorist' related discusions when I have inadvertently choked on a cold beer . The first was when a clairvoyant told my missus that she was sensing that I was secretly putting money into something which could have a big impact and my wife said 'yes he puts a lot of money in ISIS' when she meant ISAs and the other one was your question  





> What makes you sure people are actually worried about terrorism?


 How anyone, with or without children,  who watched the Manchester bombing unfold and saw the profile of the child victims could ask such a question baffles me, it really does.

This is from IPSOS last month:






Three quarters surveyed thought that terrorist attacks in the UK were likely to happen  so yes there is evidence that people are worried about terrorism. Maybe not in Newbieland or even in the wider world of Urban75 but out in the real world people are worried. Terrorism and the governments response to it was a key issue in the UK elections ,French elections, US elections and is already emerging as an issue in the forthcoming German elections.There are countless other surveys not just in the UK but globally which paint a similar picture about citizens concerns about terrorism. Its not just Europe, Australia, Singapore and Thailand were ranked in the top five countries out of 17 in a survey last year where terrorism was seen as the biggest issue. 

its been a growing issue:







> It's not my assertion that people are worried





> You're making the assertions that people are 'worried' about terrorism





> Even if such worries are widespread, which I doubt,





> but I'm doubtful about the premise that people are particularly 'worried' and seek understanding of why you think they are.



So when you said  





> steps claimed to be able to detect a worry in the population at large


 this is why .

The Keep calm and carry on attitude is to be admired for many its what they can do to show that the terrorists aren't winning .For most though its bcause they have very little choice but to go about there everyday busines as best they can. However despite  one survey after the Manchester bombing showing 70% did not feel that their personal security had been changed by the event the next day after the bombing in Manchester both the Arndale Center and the Trafford Centre had high levels of staff absence low levels of shoppers. There has been a trend that holiday makers avoid Tunsia, Egypt and Turkey because of their worries about terrorism. In Belgium, France and Germany ( the former two particularly) tourism fell due to terrorist attacks impacting on unemployment. So there are ways in which when people have a choice they change their behaviour because of fears of terrorism.

Fear of terrorism also changes peoples behaviour in more negative ways. Childline for example  reported last year that they had had over 600 referrals from children worried to the point about terrorism that they required counselling. As we know it is capable of increasing hatred towards minorities, it creates fears especially when people associated that minority with the attacks. It has the potential to cause people to retreat to 'family groups' and to see what they percieve as outsiders to be a threat. This was what Le Pen’s narrative of a civilizational conflict along demographic lines was all about which whether we like it or not achieved some resonance. Scratch the surface and the issue of people carrying on as normal becomes a little more complicated. 

I am not sure where you got the idea from that I had claimed that the public were demanding a response from the left or the right btw. You repeated this several times  .It may have been a bit of mischeivous behaviour in your part, poor reading skills or your imagination running away with you. As to the question whether peoples anxieties and fears can be articulated by the right or left ( or any other political grouping)  the answer is yes, of course they can.

I'll pause here but I do want to come back to your question what the left and antifascists could be doing. , I did post something on another thread but it might be worth me reposting that on here and try to expand on it?


----------



## newbie (Jul 11, 2017)

welcome back, thanks for a detailed reply, I'm afraid it's my turn to stall because I'm busy, I'll try to respond later.  But please give over with this 'Newbieland' sneer.  Like I said, I live very near the site of two of 3 recent Islamist attacks, I'm as close (or closer if you're still abroad) to those likely to feel personally threatened sufficiently to change their behaviour, and I've seen and heard none of that since the initial shock wore off.  I'll contrast again that (lack of) reaction to the very different personal expressions of those who live or work in blocks with cladding.  I'll follow up later I hope.


----------



## newbie (Jul 11, 2017)

The39thStep 
OK, I don't think conducting debate via opinion poll is particularly useful, but in looking for your source I found this:

If I read that right shortly after 3 terrorist attacks the whole foreign policy/defence and terrorism category went from being mentioned by 10% of people to 29%, and from being outside the top 10 issues of concern, while everything else was pretty static. I don't know how that squares with the polls you found. 

Since you mentioned urban I suppose I should also point this poll out, running since Jan 2015. FTR I haven't voted



Turning to the rest of what you said, I think it's fairly inevitable that in the immediate aftermath of an atrocity people are a bit circumspect: after all, Jean Charles de Menezes was shot just a few days after the London bombings in 2005.  I really don't think people just keep calm and carry on because they have to: I was in Borough Market a couple of weeks ago, 'twas full of tourists and Londoners shopping, eating, drinking, and last week in Parliament Sq, right next to Westminster Bridge at an anti-austerity demo with (so McDonnell claimed) 100,000 people present (actually maybe 10-20k but you know what politicians are like). I haven't been to Finsbury Park or Manchester, but am I really supposed to believe attitudes there are so different?

It's certainly very sad that there are 600 children traumatised by the Manchester bomb.  Many I guess were personally affected, being caught up in it or having classmates, friends etc who were. I hope their counselling helps them. I'm not going to draw much in the way of general conclusions though. 

As for the election, 2 attacks during the campaign meant terrorism inevitably became an election issue, but it wasn't one prior to the Manchester bomb, when we were all discussing the proposed dementia tax.

So yes, no doubt everything you say is true, but taken in the round I'm not persuaded that it adds up to people- adults- being truly worried.



> I am not sure where you got the idea from that I had claimed that the public were demanding a response from the left or the right btw.



I don't think I said you claimed that.  I did, however, say that I don't think there is any such demand, in the context of this post on the first page of this thread, which implies you think this is, or might become, a left/right contested issue


The39thStep said:


> It's fine to out the far right but unless the left comes up with an alternative it will be the far right that will try and get its hands on the issue despite the organisers of the demos efforts .




So having said all that I still don't know what it it you think the left is capable of doing to combat terrorism, whether Jihadi or far right, like Finsbury Park, Jo Cox or (going back a bit) the Brixton and Soho bombs. Or what the left can offer to the public by mobilising around this issue.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 11, 2017)

newbie said:


> The39thStep
> OK, I don't think conducting debate via opinion poll is particularly useful, but in looking for your source I found this:View attachment 111160
> 
> If I read that right shortly after 3 terrorist attacks the whole foreign policy/defence and terrorism category went from being mentioned by 10% of people to 29%, and from being outside the top 10 issues of concern, while everything else was pretty static. I don't know how that squares with the polls you found.
> ...



Dear me. 
I am genuinely glad that everything is tickety boo in Newbieland and glad you found a poll that said something different .However have another gander at the trend over years graph.I suspect the military defeat of ISIS ( don't know if you are for or against this) will not be the end of bombs, knife attacks or vans plowing people down.Fear of terrorist attacks will undoubtedly go up and down depending on the gap between attacks but the trajectory of concern is quite clear unfortunately.


Could you kindly re read the last bit of my previous post as that would answer the bit of your last post.Thanks .


----------



## newbie (Jul 12, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> have another gander at the trend over years graph.I


well ok, if politics via opinion poll is the way forward I'll quote the sting in the tail from that page


> Despite the high number of people who think an attack is imminent, very few believe that it will actually affect themselves or people they know. Just 12% of people believe that there is a high chance that they, a family member or a friend will be hurt in a terror attack (up 5% since 2010). By contrast, 55% think the chances are low and a further 14% think the chances are almost non-existent.


sfaics all it means is that people noticed the rise of ISIS terrorism but that they're not unduly worried about it.



> Could you kindly re read the last bit of my previous post as that would answer the bit of your last post.Thanks .


this bit?  "_I'll pause here but I do want to come back to your question what the left and antifascists could be doing. , I did post something on another thread but it might be worth me reposting that on here and try to expand on it?_".  Please do expand.


ps I really would prefer it if you could conduct a discussion without snide personal slurs:,"_Newbieland_ "......"_the military defeat of ISIS ( don't know if you are for or against this)_" but you carry on if that's the way you want to behave.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 12, 2017)

newbie said:


> well ok, if politics via opinion poll is the way forward I'll quote the sting in the tail from that page
> 
> sfaics all it means is that people noticed the rise of ISIS terrorism but that they're not unduly worried about it.
> 
> ...


You are confusing the actuality of an event with being worried about it. People worry about flying but the actuality of crashing is very low . The worry is there otherwise people wouldn't rate it so high in opinion polls. Look at some data about the French and Belgium tourist economies or bookings to North Africa or Egypt. 
Anyway we need to create a space where other posters contribute otherwise it's just boring with you and me.


----------



## newbie (Jul 12, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> You are confusing the actuality of an event with being worried about it. People worry about flying but the actuality of crashing is very low . The worry is there otherwise people wouldn't rate it so high in opinion polls. Look at some data about the French and Belgium tourist economies or bookings to North Africa or Egypt.


No, I'm simply not overplaying peoples fears for political reasons, which is something I mostly expect from the Daily Mail and further right. You have nothing to support your premise except dubious interpretations of opinion polls.  Egypt, Tunisia, sure I can read the FCO Advisories, but that has little or no relevance to day to day life here.

I've been asking since page 1 what you had in mind when you called for a left alternative response to what you claim is a really pressing worry. Why don't you just tell me? 



> Anyway we need to create a space where other posters contribute otherwise it's just boring with you and me.


cos everybody else is being prevented from posting


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 12, 2017)

I don't even see why you're making it so relevant, newbie, it's not as if you canvass opinions on whether the general populace are worried or not with regards to opposition of the far right. So why is the lack of worry not relevant in that context but relevant in this one?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't even see why you're making it so relevant, newbie, it's not as if you canvass opinions on whether the general populace are worried or not with regards to opposition of the far right. So why is the lack of worry not relevant in that context but relevant in this one?


it's a newbie fact, magnus


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 12, 2017)

> what you had in mind when you called for a left alternative response ?



Why isn't this a relevant question in the context of this thread? 

Considering posts like these...



> unless the left comes up with an alternative it will be the far right that will try and get its hands on the issue





> The same as how the left respond to fascist cunts who have white skin?
> Why does being a brown skinned fascist elicit a shrug from your good self?


----------



## newbie (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don't even see why you're making it so relevant, newbie, it's not as if you canvass opinions on whether the general populace are worried or not with regards to opposition of the far right. So why is the lack of worry not relevant in that context but relevant in this one?



tbh I wish I'd just asked about the left alternative approach to Jihadi terrorists and never bothered querying whether or not people are 'worried'.  That's the political question I'm interested in getting to the bottom of, and have asked lots of times, and which no-one has even attempted.  

I think the claim _the public are worried_ is overstated. But that's secondary, queried only because it was cited as the reason why this left alternative is required. We are where we are because opinion polls is what The39thStep chose to write about as a response to only the secondary question. I'd prefer to be trying to understand what a left response to acts of terrorism might consist of.


----------



## killer b (Jul 13, 2017)

steps made some suggestions on another thread, gimme a minute...


----------



## killer b (Jul 13, 2017)

here:



The39thStep said:


> I think its about confronting the Islamacist mileu as well as the would be jihaddists.Heres a few ideas to start the discusion with, other posters will probably have better ideas.
> 
> I think the starting point would be to acknowledge the fact that more working class people are worried about Islamic terrorism than they are about nazis issue and a notice of intent that anti fascism is about confronting all forms of fascism.
> 
> ...


----------



## newbie (Jul 13, 2017)

What is it there that is specifically or uniquely left wing, based on class or material conditions? 

So as well as the government, security services, various Muslim activist groups and the far right, the left should also attempt to differentiate between good Muslims and bad Muslims in ways which can and will be portrayed as curtailing freedom of speech, as racial/religious profiling and as harming cohesion.  All of these propositions are effectively lining up behind either the Prevent Strategy and/or positions taken by the EDL, though with a very slightly different emphasis.  

As for starting dialogues, why would the left choose this topic when there are so many others available.  Cuts, NHS or gig economy are much more natural dialogues, and have the advantage that they're not rooted in concepts and understandings from another language and another century.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

It's about having a little bit of consistency and opposing fascism regardless of what mask it wears. It's fuck all to do with "good muslims and bad muslims" (whatever that's meant to mean)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 13, 2017)

Consistency, right, gotcha.

Now how do you propose that is done given would-be jihadist/suicide bombers are not known to organise rallies, march etc advertising the fact or exposing their plans?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Consistency, right, gotcha.
> 
> Now how do you propose that is done given would-be jihadist/suicide bombers are not known to organise rallies, march etc advertising the fact or exposing their plans?



So despite the general thrust being of people being reluctant to organise against them, you're now presenting your argument as having intel stating they don't do any of the above?


----------



## Shechemite (Jul 13, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Consistency, right, gotcha.
> 
> Now how do you propose that is done given would-be jihadist/suicide bombers are not known to organise rallies, march etc advertising the fact or exposing their plans?



Islamists do hold rallies/protests/book stalls


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

One of them had been on the telly! "Not known"


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So despite the general thrust being of people being reluctant to organise against them, you're now presenting your argument as having intel stating they don't do any of the above?



I don't see them around and about London for example? I am not claiming _intel _ffs I've asked you what you think should/can be done_._


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 13, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Islamists do hold rallies/protests/book stalls


Do you see them where you are?
What do you think the left should be doing when this happens?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> One of them had been on the telly! "Not known"


What, are you being a dick? JUST say what you think the left should be doing...it's quite a simple question.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> What are you being a dick? JUST say what you think the left should be doing...it's quite a simple question.



I thinks steps post is a good starting point.


----------



## newbie (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's about having a little bit of consistency and opposing fascism regardless of what mask it wears. It's fuck all to do with "good muslims and bad muslims" (whatever that's meant to mean)


it means what it's meant every time anyone has proposed the same interventions anytime over the last decade or two. 

I'm no theorist, is 'fascism' actually an appropriate term for religiously inspired suicide bombers? Is it a blanket term now? Are far right and pro-Sharia economic and racial/nationalist policies similar enough that minor social policy differences (eg demanding to keep children as sex slaves, that women must cover every inch of their bodies and that alcohol be banned) can be glossed over?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

They're not inspired by religion, they're inspired by their politics. There's plenty of reading material out there that argues that ISIS (and Islamism) is fascism if you're interested.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They're not inspired by religion, they're inspired by their politics. There's plenty of reading material out there that argues that ISIS (and Islamism) is fascism if you're interested.


yeh. but what if they *are* inspired by their religion? from what you're saying, you know better than e.g. al-baghdadi what inspires him.

just because there's lots of stuff saying 'isis (and islamism) is fascism' doesn't mean a) that it's right; b) that it's cogently argued; or c) that anyone should bother with it. there's lots and lots of stuff out there saying jesus is the son of god, but i see no reason to equate the quantity of it with the quality.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but what if they *are* inspired by their religion?



It's obviously interwoven but that doesn't make it non political.


----------



## newbie (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thinks steps post is a good starting point.


a starting point, in 2017 that has so many echoes of both Prevent and EDL as to be distinguishable only in the fine detail


----------



## newbie (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They're not inspired by religion, they're inspired by their politics. There's plenty of reading material out there that argues that ISIS (and Islamism) is fascism if you're interested.


No doubt, but I'll bet there are orders of magnitude more focusing on religion written and published by the the Sharia types themselves.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

Look your mind isn't going to be changed so why are you even posting on it?


----------



## newbie (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Look your mind isn't going to be changed so why are you even posting on it?


is yours?

I've had my mind changed plenty of times by debates on here. I'm encouraging you and anyone else to stand up the proposition that's been made. 

If, as claimed, the public is worried and seeking political direction then this is an important issue to explore, no?   Convince me there is an identifiable left position that can and should be articulated and that the working class would benefit from the left doing so.

Or, it's just a bit of chatter on an obscure thread that will soon be lost.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

But I'm getting the impression that I'd be wasting my time. There's already been goal post shifting - I'm expected to do your leg work and define it as fascism, show that they organise publicly (and presumably where?) and this comes after pages of the worried public red herring. And you're just downplaying everything and I haven't got the stamina.


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But I'm getting the impression that I'd be wasting my time. There's already been goal post shifting - I'm expected to do your leg work and define it as fascism, show that they organise publicly (and presumably where?) and this comes after pages of the worried public red herring. And you're just downplaying everything and I haven't got the stamina.



Surely it should be your leg work? If you think jihadism should be confronted like this , then lead the way.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Surely it should be your leg work? If you think jihadism should be confronted like this , then lead the way.



Surely, as an anti fascist, you'd already know the answer if you were worth your salt?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Surely, as an anti fascist, you'd already know the answer if you were worth your salt?



Do you want people to mobilise against them or not?


----------



## newbie (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But I'm getting the impression that I'd be wasting my time. There's already been goal post shifting - I'm expected to do your leg work and define it as fascism, show that they organise publicly (and presumably where?) and this comes after pages of the worried public red herring. And you're just downplaying everything and I haven't got the stamina.


you're making the definition, steps claimed the public is worried. I've made the mistake of querying when I should just accept what I read?

It's only a waste of your time if the proposition(s) you two are trying to stand up have no substance.  If your position amounts to anything, it's very important, surely.  otherwise the far right will be able to mobilise public opinion in their own, somewhat dubious, way because there is a vacuum where the left alternative ought to be.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Do you want people to mobilise against them or not?



Does AFN want guidance from me?


----------



## Red Sky (Jul 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Does AFN want guidance from me?



I'm not the AFN. In any case if you think this kind of mobilisation is a priority then you know what to do, all the rest is just hot air.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jul 13, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I'm not the AFN. In any case if you think this kind of mobilisation is a priority then you know what to do, all the rest is just hot air.



True.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2017)

newbie said:


> tbh I wish I'd just asked about the left alternative approach to Jihadi terrorists and never bothered querying whether or not people are 'worried'.  That's the political question I'm interested in getting to the bottom of, and have asked lots of times, and which no-one has even attempted.
> 
> I think the claim _the public are worried_ is overstated. But that's secondary, queried only because it was cited as the reason why this left alternative is required. We are where we are because opinion polls is what The39thStep chose to write about as a response to only the secondary question. I'd prefer to be trying to understand what a left response to acts of terrorism might consist of.



I'll add 'I think the claim _the public are worried_ is overstated' to the rest of your 'query'


> t's not my assertion that people are worried





> You're making the assertions that people are 'worried' about terrorism





> Even if such worries are widespread, which I doubt,





> but I'm doubtful about the premise that people are particularly 'worried' and seek understanding of why you think they are.





> steps claimed to be able to detect a worry in the population at large


----------



## Nice one (Jul 15, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Red Action - and indeed AFA - would never have come into being without 'football lads'.
> 
> Of the originals, Mickey & Joe Reilly were leading Cockney Reds back in the heyday of mass football hooliganism (the late 70's). They brought many fighters with them. Most of the Manchester Squad were football hoolies/fighters. Jimmy was Chelsea. All the Welwyn lads were West Ham/ICF.
> 
> ...



always a pleasure reading


----------



## RD2003 (Jul 19, 2017)

newbie said:


> Convince me there is an identifiable left position that can and should be articulated and that the working class would benefit from the left doing so.


There is only one, and that is to oppose fascistic Islamism even harder than the far right does-and to do it from the position of insisting that this is not racism, while pouring contempt on the Trot/liberal dinosaurs who try to claim that it is.

Your claim that nobody is worried about the actions and apparent strategy of these fucking fruitcakes is incredible, by the way.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 30, 2017)

Football Lads Alliance or at least their Twitter account seems to have taken a strong dislike to all things Celtic.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 30, 2017)

I wonder how their October demo will pan out. Leaving huge gaps between mobilisations tends to lead to momentum being lost. Maybe ISIS will help them out with some more attacks. 
It's good that in the mean time anonymous twitter accounts are focusing on stickers.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder how their October demo will pan out. Leaving huge gaps between mobilisations tends to lead to momentum being lost. Maybe ISIS will help them out with some more attacks.
> It's good that in the mean time anonymous twitter accounts are focusing on stickers.



It's not really anonymous is it? It's their main public voice.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 30, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> It's not really anonymous is it? It's their main public voice.



I don't know the structure so I'll accept you're right on this. And I will take it as evidence of patriotic leanings.


----------



## editor (Aug 30, 2017)

It still sits uneasily with me, so I won't be joining in.


----------



## B.I.G (Aug 30, 2017)

Clapton part of the football lads alliance?


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 30, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Clapton part of the football lads alliance?



I doubt it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 30, 2017)

It's bizarre to claim other football fans are extremists if they're hooligans, given they're made up of hooligans.


----------



## Red Sky (Aug 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's bizarre to claim other football fans are extremists if they're hooligans, given they're made up of hooligans.



I'm guessing it's the whole Up the 'RA shtick.  The FLA did a photo op at a recent commemoration for the victims of the Birmingham pub bombings.

That linkage between the IRA and ISIS is quite common on the far right, with some of the older bods behind groups like the South East Alliance having cut their teeth on attacks against Troops Out marches. 

Reading their Twitter they're definitely moving rightwards.  I think their October march could be quite big.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Aug 30, 2017)

Well, if it's turning far right it isn't good. If the numbers hold they'll be easier to divide though.


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 1, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I'm guessing it's the whole Up the 'RA shtick.  The FLA did a photo op at a recent commemoration for the victims of the Birmingham pub bombings.
> 
> That linkage between the IRA and ISIS is quite common on the far right, with some of the older bods behind groups like the South East Alliance having cut their teeth on attacks against Troops Out marches.
> 
> Reading their Twitter they're definitely moving rightwards.  I think their October march could be quite big.


Whether it's big or not they, like the EDL, will not have a clue about effective political organisation. Which is what counts in the end, no matter what amount of gobbing off you might do.

Another colourful sideshow for the dinosaur left to get sweaty about.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

Maybe they'll learn. But delaying a second A to B demo months later leads not to any momentum. And they have no answers to social problems.
But interesting that the WC are taking to the streets. If they've got the target wrong then whose fault is that?


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe they'll learn. But delaying a second A to B demo months later leads not to any momentum. And they have no answers to social problems.
> But interesting that the WC are taking to the streets. If they've got the target wrong then whose fault is that?



Some of the WC.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe they'll learn. But delaying a second A to B demo months later leads not to any momentum. And they have no answers to social problems.
> But interesting that the WC are taking to the streets. If they've got the target wrong then whose fault is that?


That of the puppet masters. Because they haven't been led by the nose to the right targets. Pre-approved ones.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2017)

After a fairly healthy initial discussion with the FLA about not having Tommy Robinson on the platform and getting Riaz Khan  I got blocked just after the video of some Celtic Celtic supporters chanting about Lee Rigby got released. Wouldn't mind but if I have any vague liking for a Scottish team it would be Hibs.


----------



## RD2003 (Sep 2, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> After a fairly healthy initial discussion with the FLA about not having Tommy Robinson on the platform and getting Riaz Khan  I got blocked just after the video of some Celtic Celtic supporters chanting about Lee Rigby got released. Wouldn't mind but if I have any vague liking for a Scottish team it would be Hibs.


I've always looked out for the results of Raith Rovers and Hamilton Academical ever since I was about 7. Don't really know why. Think with the latter it was the way that bloke who used to read the football results on the telly said the name.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> That of the puppet masters. Because they haven't been led by the nose to the right targets. Pre-approved ones.



Or being more interested in point scoring online.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

All the theory on here, someone has an answer?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Or being more interested in point scoring online.


Get off the internet then.

I like your idea that the working class aren't on the internet and instead are in the real world.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Some of the WC.



You think they're acting contrary to the views of their communities? If so, why?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> All the theory on here, someone has an answer?


What are you after now? 

You've not bothered to outline it but you mean some  real world action - show it and show how it's effective.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You think they're acting contrary to the views of their communities? If so, why?


You really are from benny hill. What happened? Hair transplant went wrong? Retired at 31?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You really are from benny hill. What happened? Hair transplant went wrong? Retired at 31?



So the FLA are racists. Nothing can be done but oppose them. Nothing to see here.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So the FLA are racists. Nothing can be done but oppose them. Nothing to see here.


Excellent. What are you, as the only working class person in the world doing to 'oppose them'? An actual answer with actual real stuff is required. Or fuck off down the road.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent. What are you, as the only working class person in the world doing to 'oppose them'? An actual answer with actual real stuff is required. Or fuck off down the road.



Great diversion.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You think they're acting contrary to the views of their communities? If so, why?



I think you're ascribing a bit too much coherence to the working class there.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I think you're ascribing a bit too much coherence to the working class there.



So the FLA are unrepresentative of WC views towards Islamists? Not in my experience.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Great diversion.


How many times can you bottle it in one day? This is sad sad stuff. And it started with you moaning about people who can't back their words up with action. Wtf happened to you to think this is better that what went before?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> How many times can you bottle it in one day? This is sad sad stuff. And it started with you moaning about people who can't back their words up with action. Wtf happened to you to think this is better that what went before?



I'm confused here. What's your actual objection? That they're a racist group masquerading as anti-Islamist? Or that any anti-Islamist expression can only come from the far right?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'm confused here. What's your actual objection? That they're a racist group masquerading as anti-Islamist? Or that any anti-Islamist expression can only come from the far right?


How about you do it like this - my response is a response to your post. Can you do that? If  you can, then you should. Before you parrot _clerical _like you even know what it means.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> How about you do it like this - my response is a response to your post. Can you do that? If  you can, then you should. Before you parrot _clerical _like you even know what it means.



So you can't answer the question.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So you can't answer the question.


Do you win many converts?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Do you win many converts?



On here? No.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Today is the day surely that tells you it's time to stop.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

Do you?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Not for health reasons, but because, fuck me, you are boring. Even when you've been on it all day. BORING


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Today is the day surely that tells you it's time to stop.



Nob off man. Nobody listens to Urban75


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Not for health reasons, but because, fuck me, you are boring. Even when you've been on it all day. BORING



Loads have fucked off from here because of your bullying. It doesn't work with me mate.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Just tidying up your cliched real/fake stuff and how that maps onto your face is a good nights work.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Loads have fucked off from here because of your bullying. It doesn't work with me mate.


I withstand in the shower - the rtqin falls on me like my true viking etc

You have never said anything enough to make me want to fuck you off here. You're like the spectre haunting laurie pennies dream. People performing working class.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Just tidying up your cliched real/fake stuff and how that maps onto your face is a good nights work.



It doesn't mean anything though mate. Even if people who know and work with me read it they'll laugh. And not at me.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It doesn't mean anything though mate. Even if people who know and work with me read it they'll laugh. And not at me.


Did you put your hi-viz on to say that? You're rigfht that no one takes seriously your hard line between real life/internet stuff and working class/middle class mapping on to that. _That's caveman shit. _


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It doesn't mean anything though mate. Even if people who know and work with me read it they'll laugh. And not at me.


Oh so secure.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

The concept of butchersapron doing these things only exists on here. So most people don't care.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The concept of butchersapron doing these things only exists on here. So most people don't care.


What does this mean?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Oh so secure.



It's not insecurity. It's surprise that you think your posts here has any kind of impact to anyone but those posting here.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> What does this mean?



Exactly as it reads.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Exactly as it reads.


It doesn't read like anything. It does read like a late starter trying to show off their parents. All these thing that you missed.

You missed me getting cut up by the edl and having emergency stitches to have my hand kept together, you missed us stopping the edl going to easton, you missed us chasing the pie and mash lot all over college green, you missed all the low level monitoring that's required  all sorts you joker. You missed me having to think twice about where i go and when. #internet


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Prick


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 2, 2017)

Fair play mate. But it doesn't give you the right to run other people down all the time on here. I'll always stand with you as a antifascist and communist.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 2, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fair play mate. But it doesn't give you the right to run other people down all the time on here. I'll always stand with you as a antifascist and communist.


Get fucked. Where were you in the white hart? I didn't see you that night. But that's the price you're demanding others must pay to talk. Well, ok, you weren't there. So either shut up or stop talking such crap. The real world exists and is made up not of people who give a shit about your 12.am in securities.You need to check your mouth and stop the anti-fascist working class performing. Like now.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Get fucked. Where were you in the white hart? I didn't see you that night. But that's the price you're demanding others must pay to talk. Well, ok, you weren't there. So either shut up or stop talking such crap. The real world exists and is made up not of people who give a shit about your 12.am in securities.You need to check your mouth and stop the anti-fascist working class performing. Like now.



Ive been in the White Hart more times than I care to remember. I don't recall a specific date we had? If you do want to hook up just say. I'm not hiding. Pickmans can help you if you think I am.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ive been in the White Hart more times than I care to remember. I don't recall a specific date we had? If you do want to hook up just say. I'm not hiding. Pickmans can help you if you think I am.


The white hart in bristol. I don't want to hook up.  I want you to stop talking as if the real world is your private domain and everyone else is a middle class fairy. I used to have four front teeth. I now have one due to fighting these cunts. Is that real-life enough?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> The white hart in bristol. I don't want to hook up.  I want you to stop talking as if the real world is your private domain and everyone else is a middle class fairy. I used to have four front teeth. I now have one due to fighting these cunts. Is that real-life enough?



Ok I'll drop it. But this all started with you giving me shit on every thread I started. Why did you do that?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

Just ignore me if you don't like me.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

I was only talking generally


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just ignore me if you don't like me.


Wow. It will never end for you now. Ever.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

Oh my god! Someone on the internet is threatening to continue hounding me! 

Crack on gadge.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

I Best Buy new locks for my doors.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

No one hounded you. No one cares what you think. About anything. Your  stupid posts that previously would have had a chuckle are now maybe going to be laughed at a bit more.

You are really shit at internet. I'm like 68 and i'm winning. And i was in star wars.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> No one hounded you. No one cares what you think. About anything. Your  stupid posts that previously would have had a chuckle are now maybe going to be laughed at a bit more.
> 
> You are really shit at internet. I'm like 68 and i'm winning. And i was in star wars.



Go and talk with the residents in your community with your missing teeth. You're wasting your time with me.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Go and talk with the residents in your community with your missing teeth. You're wasting your time with me.


Of all the shit posts you've posted today, this is the best. It's trying to be mean but like a head teacher trying to publicly not molest  you - look everyone, i'm not molesting your kids.

The content of this post i'm responding to. I have. Now what? Fake life?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Just ignore me if you don't like me.


Just to quote this beauty again.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> The white hart in bristol. I don't want to hook up.  I want you to stop talking as if the real world is your private domain and everyone else is a middle class fairy. I used to have four front teeth. I now have one due to fighting these cunts. Is that real-life enough?



If you don't want to hook up then why did you mention the white hart in Bristol?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Of all the shit posts you've posted today, this is the best. It's trying to be mean but like a head teacher trying to publicly not molest  you - look everyone, i'm not molesting your kids.
> 
> The content of this post i'm responding to. I have. Now what? Fake life?



You're suggesting I molest kids now?


----------



## editor (Sep 3, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You're suggesting I molest kids now?


Try reading what he wrote again. He made no such suggestion.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 3, 2017)

editor said:


> Try reading what he wrote again. He made no such suggestion.



Bizarre comparison to make? Why that?


----------



## killer b (Sep 3, 2017)

From _you're giving me exactly what I wanted lol _to_ if you don't like me, just ignore me _in just a few short, sweet hours. Good work.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

More to come. After about 12 ish I reck.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 3, 2017)

Maybe he's  gone rubgy.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 4, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> It doesn't read like anything. It does read like a late starter trying to show off their parents. All these thing that you missed.
> 
> You missed me getting cut up by the edl and having emergency stitches to have my hand kept together, you missed us stopping the edl going to easton, you missed us chasing the pie and mash lot all over college green, you missed all the low level monitoring that's required  all sorts you joker. You missed me having to think twice about where i go and when. #internet



Is this an anti fascist pissing contest now? #askingforafriend


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 4, 2017)

Go on, give us another war story.


----------



## killer b (Sep 4, 2017)

Can't win with this prick: you're either a all talk no trousers dillatente  or you're some one-upman show off.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 4, 2017)

Are you ever not up his bum?


----------



## killer b (Sep 4, 2017)

Yeah, cause it's only him you've been attacking.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 5, 2017)

reluctant to bump this but seen that there is a FLA thing this weekend in London


Why are four coachloads of football fans going to London when there's no match?

and they have merch!
Home


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 5, 2017)

oh good, they have ex mercenary and alleged wife beater phil campion as a speaker.


----------



## editor (Oct 5, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> oh good, they have ex mercenary and alleged wife beater phil campion as a speaker.


Nice.

Former SAS serviceman given restraining order after row with ex-girlfriend


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 5, 2017)

editor said:


> Nice.
> 
> Former SAS serviceman given restraining order after row with ex-girlfriend



A lot of far right Twitterers are saying they're going.

Tommy Robinson is attending as 'a journalist '.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

Estimates of between 5-8,000 in attendance.


----------



## chilango (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Estimates of between 5-8,000 in attendance.




If those numbers are even remotely true, and I couldn't tell from the Ruptly stream tbh - that's a fair turnout.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 7, 2017)

Looks a lot bigger than 8k.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Looks a lot bigger than 8k.



Now heard estimates of 20 000.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 7, 2017)

Any sign of ' anti racists will be on the streets ' from the SWP?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Now heard estimates of 20 000.


25,000 I've heard


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Any sign of ' anti racists will be on the streets ' from the SWP?



Did they say they were going to oppose it? Physically I mean.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Did they say they were going to oppose it? Physically I mean.


Couple of hundred trade unionists and anti-racists by downing St I hear


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Did they say they were going to oppose it? Physically I mean.


No they were going to give some leaflets out in Downing Street, not sure the march goes there?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> No they were going to give some leaflets out in Downing Street, not sure the march goes there?


Not sure what the point of leafleting downing st is


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure what the point of leafleting downing st is



See if there was a reaction.  A way of gauging where the FLA is politically.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> See if there was a reaction.  A way of gauging where the FLA is politically.


I think the SWP would get a reaction whoever they leafletted


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> See if there was a reaction.  A way of gauging where the FLA is politically.


From pics I've seen of the attendees I would hazard they're much as you'd expect them to be politically


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I think the SWP would get a reaction whoever they leafletted



I reckon 98% of the country haven't got a Scooby who Comrade Delta is.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> From pics I've seen of the attendees I would hazard they're much as you'd expect them to be politically



Re-emergence of the EDL? The leadership of the EDL sort of imploded and/or moved on to more lucrative things, but the people turning up to the marches presumably have the same grievances.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I reckon 98% of the country haven't got a Scooby who Comrade Delta is.



lol you think it's anywhere near as high as 2%? 0.4% tops.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I reckon 98% of the country haven't got a Scooby who Comrade Delta is.


Not just cos of that


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Re-emergence of the EDL? The leadership of the EDL sort of imploded and/or moved on to more lucrative things, but the people turning up to the marches presumably have the same grievances.


People who've long been out of circulation re-emerging from the woodwork, people who might have been out in the 80s or 90's


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> People who've long been out of circulation re-emerging from the woodwork, people who might have been out in the 80s or 90's



I think they're all there.  Tommy Robinson, Rebel Media- all that. I'm guessing it'll be like the big anti war demos were for us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I think they're all there.  Tommy Robinson, Rebel Media- all that. I'm guessing it'll be like the big anti war demos were for us.


Unsuccessful and rapidly dwindling in size then


----------



## J Ed (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I think they're all there.  Tommy Robinson, Rebel Media- all that. I'm guessing it'll be like the big anti war demos were for us.



Increasingly I think far-right social media orgs like Rebel Media have much more influence than we realise.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 7, 2017)

There were at least 20k there - I’d say 20-30.

TR was there titting about at the front with a woman with huge sunglasses filming him (and a minder or two), having selfies taken with people, but he got nowhere near the centre. He’s not exactly universally loved, though some people clearly liked him.

There were some speeches of varying levels of dodginess beforehand. Phil Campion mentioned Churchill two or three times and said we were at war. Several people had a “no surrender” theme. There was explicit anti racism in terms of black and white Brits, and mention of working class solidarity, but reference to “if you come over here we expect loyalty” and a conflation of national loyalty and social unity; diversity = disunity.

People at the start of the march were quite mixed and friendly, but behind them (where you get fewer press) they were less mixed and less friendly. I heard several different people laughing about looking for a fight. On Whitehall by the counter demo, initially the march applauded them and chanted “stand up to racism!” but when they passed and the main body of people (blokes) arrived it got much more aggro. I don’t know if any actual fights happened but a few bottles and cans were thrown.

Some people were saying “fucking idiots, that’s exactly what they want”, “oi it’s no violence” and holding other people back, but there were also some absolutely enraged, including a few completely shit-faced fighting drunk. Various football chants and also singing the national anthem.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Unsuccessful and rapidly dwindling in size then



That'd be nice but somehow  I don't think so.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 7, 2017)

'oppose extremism' and 'terrorism' - well thats vague, most people do. who isnt against getting blown up on a train? 
i'm guessing there were no mention of National Action, Thomas Mair, Neo-nazi Infidels and crank fascist bomb makers etc and that 'extremism' is being seen thru Brown Tinted Spectacles.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

Can this thread be shifted out of "football" ?


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 7, 2017)

when the EDL started they also espoused 'anti racism in terms of black and white Brits' and used the leftists 'black and white unite' but as far as hooligan firms go, black firms have had a lot of respect (man city guvnors, the zulus etc) and are seen as integrated, liking similar teams, music, clothes etc. 'black and white' is a very black and white phrase: what about other 'non-whites' or 'non-blacks' and it reminds me of 1970s 'i dont mind blacks it's the pakis i dont like' kind of selective racism.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 7, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> when the EDL started they also espoused 'anti racism in terms of black and white Brits' and used the leftists 'black and white unite' but as far as hooligan firms go, black firms have had a lot of respect (man city guvnors, the zulus etc) and are seen as integrated, liking similar teams, music, clothes etc. 'black and white' is a very black and white phrase: what about other 'non-whites' or 'non-blacks' and it reminds me of 1970s 'i dont mind blacks it's the pakis i dont like' kind of selective racism.



Not sure that the EDL ever abandoned that position.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Can this thread be shifted out of "football" ?



yeah i couldnt find it and started 1 meself.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Not sure that the EDL ever abandoned that position.



yeah, one of the many splits was over such things and groupuscules like Infidels etc were more hardline racist and fascist. there have been very few black people in EDL and none with any media profile. there were a couple of nutters like Guramit Singh (in prison armed robbery), joel titus (in prison) and that fucken weird Ali Rangers geezer and another anti-muslim sikh too tho.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I think they're all there.  Tommy Robinson, Rebel Media- all that. I'm guessing it'll be like the big anti war demos were for us.


I think that's a good description .The STW demos attracted a broad spectrum opposed to the wars for all sorts of reasons  pacifists, humanitarians , people opposed to the sheer waste of money and human cost , families of serving soldiers, ex veterans etc to the Islamacists / open up the second front brigade who latched on  to it. Yesterday was pretty much a large umbrella of civic nationalism which elements of the far right/ EDL have latched on to.
Not sure there's that much future in the FLA itself though unless it moves from just having large demos in London and merchandise .I heard some Twitter talk that Robinson was talking ,again , about a new party .This time with those who supported Ann Marie Waters.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I think that's a good description .The STW demos attracted a broad spectrum opposed to the wars for all sorts of reasons  pacifists, humanitarians , people opposed to the sheer waste of money and human cost , families of serving soldiers, ex veterans etc to the Islamacists / open up the second front brigade who latched on  to it. Yesterday was pretty much a large umbrella of civic nationalism which elements of the far right/ EDL have latched on to.
> Not sure there's that much future in the FLA itself though unless it moves from just having large demos in London and merchandise .I heard some Twitter talk that Robinson was talking ,again , about a new party .This time with those who supported Ann Marie Waters.



I think it'll re energise the far right street movements.  At least as far as calling demos goes. 
Not sure about the FLA as a vehicle though , it seems to be quite a one man band. One of the reasons the EDL grew so quickly was that the regions and different divisions had a great deal of autonomy, at least for the first two years.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 8, 2017)

UKIP rejected anne marie waters but she still got 21%. UKIP got 1.8% in last election votes compared to 2015s 12.6%. BNP got 1.9% in 2010, their best year (all according to this weeks the economist). 
Robinson and Water's setting up a new party for who tho? UKIP and Tories have their kind of nastiness covered. Joe 'Nazi Assassin' Owens has been threatening to set 1 up too. their problem is a lack of political space on the uk far right, that tho the potential support is broad it can be spread too thinly and it is hard for many to determine between civic, racial, or ultra-nationalism as they all sound the same. 
also noticed a shiny new FLA merchandise page and given that the BNP and EDL really fell out over money, it may bode ill. hopefully.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> UKIP rejected anne marie waters but she still got 21%. UKIP got 1.8% in last election votes compared to 2015s 12.6%. BNP got 1.9% in 2010, their best year (all according to this weeks the economist).
> Robinson and Water's setting up a new party for who tho? UKIP and Tories have their kind of nastiness covered. Joe 'Nazi Assassin' Owens has been threatening to set 1 up too. their problem is a lack of political space on the uk far right, that tho the potential support is broad it can be spread too thinly and it is hard for many to determine between civic, racial, or ultra-nationalism as they all sound the same.
> also noticed a shiny new FLA merchandise page and given that the BNP and EDL really fell out over money, it may bode ill. hopefully.


Didn't c18 get into fights over money too?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I think that's a good description .The STW demos attracted a broad spectrum opposed to the wars for all sorts of reasons  pacifists, humanitarians , people opposed to the sheer waste of money and human cost , families of serving soldiers, ex veterans etc to the Islamacists / open up the second front brigade who latched on  to it. Yesterday was pretty much a large umbrella of civic nationalism which elements of the far right/ EDL have latched on to.
> Not sure there's that much future in the FLA itself though unless it moves from just having large demos in London and merchandise .I heard some Twitter talk that Robinson was talking ,again , about a new party .This time with those who supported Ann Marie Waters.


If it sticks to marches as marches it will dwindle quickly as the novelty of shuffling down a street loses its attraction after a while


----------



## ddraig (Oct 8, 2017)

have they handed in their petition yet or is that still to come?


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 8, 2017)

yes C18 split over proceeds of that fucken awful B&H music. 
'you keep the CDs' 
'no, you have em, they're shit' 
'i've already got loads in the shed'
'can't we just burn them?'

stab, punch, kick, boak, prison etc ...


----------



## Tom A (Oct 8, 2017)

Anyone seen the godawful Daily Mail article (you'll need to scroll down a bit because I've linked to an archive.is snapshot rather than directly to them and the formatting of the page has been lost) that presents them as a legitimate protest group and is a puff propaganda piece for them? I think it's pretty bad, even for the HateMail.


----------



## sealion (Oct 8, 2017)

Racism was at the heart of Football Lads Alliance march


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

sealion said:


> Racism was at the heart of Football Lads Alliance march


Predictable from the SWP . How on earth is asking for hate preachers to be arrested a boost for Islamaphobia? Most Muslims I know would agree with that if they didn't get to them first.
The only reason Robinson was at the front of the march is because he put himself there , there was a debate on whether he should be a speaker and the FLA said no.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I think it'll re energise the far right street movements.  At least as far as calling demos goes.
> Not sure about the FLA as a vehicle though , it seems to be quite a one man band. One of the reasons the EDL grew so quickly was that the regions and different divisions had a great deal of autonomy, at least for the first two years.


More bombings, more attacks will energise the far right far more than this demo.


----------



## sealion (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The only reason Robinson was at the front of the march is because he put himself there


Isn't he working for some media company at the moment ? he seems to be putting himself about recently. He turned up with some thugs from Luton to help out spurs when they played us (Millwall) last year. He got a spanking off a black lad from spurs and was told to fuck off


----------



## editor (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Predictable from the SWP . How on earth is asking for hate preachers to be arrested a boost for Islamaphobia? Most Muslims I know would agree with that if they didn't get to them first.
> The only reason Robinson was at the front of the march is because he put himself there , there was a debate on whether he should be a speaker and the FLA said no.


This seems a tad, well, racist, no? 


> FLA founder John Meighan was loudly cheered when he called for the deportation of terror suspects.
> 
> “We want all suspected terrorists who are not British citizens to be permanently removed from the country,” he said. “Why should they be allowed to come over here? They’re not British citizens – get them out.”
> 
> ...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2017)

sealion said:


> Racism was at the heart of Football Lads Alliance march


Some of that is true, some is not. TR was not "at the head of the march" - he was certainly wandering around in front of the march before it set off, but then so was I and loads of other people. He got stayed well clear of the march itself, both while speeches were being made and once it started. (I see the Mail are making a lot of him too; he's a self-promoter, he attracts journos, easy coverage.) Also there were far more than 5K people on Whitehall; some had left by that point but lots were still there.


----------



## sealion (Oct 8, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Some of that is true, some is not.


It seems more balanced than when they reported on the first march this summer.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 8, 2017)

sealion said:


> It seems more balanced than when they reported on the first march this summer.


I think a lot of people were caught out by the first march and relied on stereotypes and assumptions, as well as stuff from social media. (Not saying that all of those were inaccurate, but particularly in the case of social media, it's not representative of people on the ground.) Part of the reason I went along was to try to get an impression.

As I said, despite the speeches, the folk at the start of the march seemed generally sound and pleasant and I started to think that maybe I'd misinterpreted things. But the crowd that followed later when they were just marching past the counter-protests - and the latter were literally just holding up signs and trying to hand out leaflets, not starting anything - changed my mind, or at least made me think about the different constituencies who were there.

I see it as very divided in terms of motivation and the organisers are clearly aware of this, with their bans on flags and signs apart from specifically club-related ones and FLA logos. They will have known that somebody would turn up with some shit about "rapefugees" or worse... but they weren't going to explicitly bar them.


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## sealion (Oct 8, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> As I said, despite the speeches, the folk at the start of the march seemed generally sound and pleasant and I started to think that maybe I'd misinterpreted things. But the crowd that followed later when they were just marching past the counter-protests - and the latter were literally just holding up signs and trying to hand out leaflets, not starting anything - changed my mind, or at least made me think about the different constituencies who were there.


I can see this being a potential flashpoint if they continue the marches and more cunts turn up causing mischief. You have to remember they are hooligans and thats how differences will be settled. The in fighting will put an end to it all imo.


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## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

editor said:


> This seems a tad, well, racist, no?


I don't think it's racist to say that suspected terrorists who not are British citizens should be deported , it might lack a bit of process but not in itself racist. Theres a big question in my mind as to why some were allowed in and no action taken till a lot later.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think a lot of people were caught out by the first march and relied on stereotypes and assumptions, as well as stuff from social media. (Not saying that all of those were inaccurate, but particularly in the case of social media, it's not representative of people on the ground.) Part of the reason I went along was to try to get an impression.
> 
> As I said, despite the speeches, the folk at the start of the march seemed generally sound and pleasant and I started to think that maybe I'd misinterpreted things. But the crowd that followed later when they were just marching past the counter-protests - and the latter were literally just holding up signs and trying to hand out leaflets, not starting anything - changed my mind, or at least made me think about the different constituencies who were there.
> 
> I see it as very divided in terms of motivation and the organisers are clearly aware of this, with their bans on flags and signs apart from specifically club-related ones and FLA logos. They will have known that somebody would turn up with some shit about "rapefugees" or worse... but they weren't going to explicitly bar them.


I think that's a very balanced observation. The left hold these people in suspicion and vice versa.


----------



## editor (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I don't think it's racist to say that suspected terrorists who not are British citizens should be deported , it might lack a bit of process but not in itself racist. Theres a big question in my mind as to why some were allowed in and no action taken till a lot later.


"_Suspected_" terrorists. So no need for any due legal process, no need to prove anything, just "get them out" because "they’re not British citizens"?


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## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

editor said:


> "_Suspected_" terrorists. So no need for any due legal process, no need to prove anything, just "get them out" because "they’re not British citizens"?


I did say lack of process . Let's face it intelligence sources are the only thing we have to go on full stop and in most cases there is a reason why a flag is raised. There are some cases where Govts overseas have flagged cases up who live here but no action has been taken. I think the speaker missed the point in any case that most of our attackers have been here for years , if not citizens.


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## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

sealion said:


> Isn't he working for some media company at the moment ? he seems to be putting himself about recently. He turned up with some thugs from Luton to help out spurs when they played us (Millwall) last year. He got a spanking off a black lad from spurs and was told to fuck off


He was working for Rebel Media but there's been a fall out ( not about him but about something else) he'll turn up again he's the reverse Anjum Chouray as far as the media is concerned.


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## emanymton (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I don't think it's racist to say that suspected terrorists who not are British citizens should be deported , it might lack a bit of process but not in itself racist. Theres a big question in my mind as to why some were allowed in and no action taken till a lot later.


And the chanting of 'we want our country back'? From who?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 8, 2017)

emanymton said:


> And the chanting of 'we want our country back'? From who?


They want to see the norman yoke overturned and the break-up of large estates I suppose


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## malatesta32 (Oct 8, 2017)

sealion said:


> I can see this being a potential flashpoint if they continue the marches and more cunts turn up causing mischief. You have to remember they are hooligans and thats how differences will be settled. The in fighting will put an end to it all imo.



i think that infighting between london firms, north/south firms etc may be held in check as it is for many firms travelling away with engerland. it is the usual 'chav scrotes' pissed up and aggro who will kick off first hyped on adrenaline as they did with EDL. discipline did not hold. but as Denis said about the EDL several threads ago 'what is the endgame?' im against being blown up on the train like most people are but i cant do much about it apart from not leaving me hempcloth yurt on the banks of the Tay.


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## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

emanymton said:


> And the chanting of 'we want our country back'? From who?


What do you think ?


----------



## editor (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> What do you think ?


It can be taken many ways, and that's _exactly_ the problem with such a chant. Full on racists and Islamphobes can all join in with gusto.


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## emanymton (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> What do you think ?


I don't think the country has been taken over by terrorists. I don't think most of those chanting it do either.


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## sealion (Oct 8, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> i think that infighting between london firms, north/south firms etc may be held in check as it is for many firms travelling away with engerland. it is the usual 'chav scrotes' pissed up and aggro who will kick off first hyped on adrenaline as they did with EDL


There is also a likleyhood of one firm looking for a payback and that chance will come at one of the marches. I was told that Leeds and Bristol city had a punch up there yesterday and then later portsmouth and Leeds had go at each other at a certain location. All young uns on the marching powder and booze.


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## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

editor said:


> It can be taken many ways, and that's _exactly_ the problem with such a chant. Full on racists and Islamphobes can all join in with gusto.


They can do the same with the national anthem or Jerusalem or flying the flag. I would associate taking the country back to some sort of golden age that probably never existed, but it does say something about a lot of people's dissatisfaction with modern Britain whether or not we like it.


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## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2017)

emanymton said:


> I don't think the country has been taken over by terrorists. I don't think most of those chanting it do either.


No it hasn't but the threat of terrorism is as high as it it has been since the IRA campaigns and at leat we knew what they were fighting for.


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## belboid (Oct 8, 2017)

Talking of the IRA, there was a jolly big ‘Justice for the 21’ banner on the demo as well.


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## malatesta32 (Oct 8, 2017)

emanymton said:


> I don't think the country has been taken over by terrorists. I don't think most of those chanting it do either.


it is more a classic claim of victimhood that fires a lot of far right sentiment, that forrins are getting preferential treatment, that a lack of housing, jobs, resources etc is cos of foreigners not a shitly jurassic fuck up of a society.


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## Red Sky (Oct 8, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> More bombings, more attacks will energise the far right far more than this demo.



Up to a point , although you have to appreciate the difference in reaction to the 7/7 bombings and the Lee Rigby murder in terms of the number of random mosque attacks and street violence. In the interim the EDL had developed.


----------



## BlackArab (Oct 8, 2017)

sealion said:


> There is also a likleyhood of one firm looking for a payback and that chance will come at one of the marches. I was told that Leeds and Bristol city had a punch up there yesterday and then later portsmouth and Leeds had go at each other at a certain location. All young uns on the marching powder and booze.



Interesting as I saw a post from a City lad that it was going off between Leeds & Spurs at one point.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> They want to see the norman yoke overturned and the break-up of large estates I suppose


What's their position on hedgerows, and compulsory longbow practice?


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## malatesta32 (Oct 9, 2017)

BlackArab said:


> Interesting as I saw a post from a City lad that it was going off between Leeds & Spurs at one point.


if you get any links please post. the size of the demo means the range of firms and their long term rivalries will be hard to control. if 2 firms get hard at it who is gonna stop it? i know loads about soccer, me!


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## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> What's their position on hedgerows, and compulsory longbow practice?


Athwart hedgerows and against longbow practice as it interferes with the football.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 9, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I don't think it's racist to say that suspected terrorists who not are British citizens should be deported , it might lack a bit of process but not in itself racist. Theres a big question in my mind as to why some were allowed in and no action taken till a lot later.



It's clearly racist to have extrajudicial punishment but only for non-British citizens.


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## Red Sky (Oct 9, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> No it hasn't but the threat of terrorism is as high as it it has been since the IRA campaigns and at leat we knew what they were fighting for.



The general 'common sense' at the time was that they were mad religious bigots.


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## Idris2002 (Oct 9, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> The general 'common sense' at the time was that they were mad religious bigots.


are you sure you're not thinking of


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 9, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> are you sure you're not thinking of



Peter Gabriel has not aged gracefully


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## krink (Oct 9, 2017)

i saw a video of two groups fighting after the march - at least, that's how it was labelled. didn't save it as it could have been anyone anywhere. 

Even this early on I think it will all end in tears, it's a big, chaotic monster and attracting the usual big egos from all over the far right. 

they may have started it with good intentions but i think it's destined to fall apart.

and the likes of swp have proven themselves to be the complete waste of space they are. even more embarrassing than the tacky fla merch


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## Red Sky (Oct 9, 2017)

krink said:


> i saw a video of two groups fighting after the march - at least, that's how it was labelled. didn't save it as it could have been anyone anywhere.
> 
> Even this early on I think it will all end in tears, it's a big, chaotic monster and attracting the usual big egos from all over the far right.
> 
> ...



I think it's less that it'll be the next EDL and more that it'll encourage the usual suspects to set up the next EDL.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 9, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Increasingly I think far-right social media orgs like Rebel Media have much more influence than we realise.



They are a pretty big and professional operation. As I remember it they have a very wealthy patron. More elitist fascist bullshit masquerading as "rebellion".


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 9, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> i think that infighting between london firms, north/south firms etc may be held in check as it is for many firms travelling away with engerland. it is the usual 'chav scrotes' pissed up and aggro who will kick off first hyped on adrenaline as they did with EDL. discipline did not hold. but as Denis said about the EDL several threads ago 'what is the endgame?' im against being blown up on the train like most people are but i cant do much about it apart from not leaving me hempcloth yurt on the banks of the Tay.


And therein lies the problem "chav scrotes" shows your utter distain for us working class.


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## Red Sky (Oct 9, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> And therein lies the problem "chav scrotes" shows your utter distain for us working class.



Pretty unfortunate choice of phrase.


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## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2017)

Not sure if Ann Marie Waters For Britain campaign is just a faction in UKIP or the start of a new organisation. 
Does anyone know anything about her when she was a Labour Party member? I've read that she was shortlisted for PPC in Brighton and tried to be a council candidate in London. She was interviewed whilst in the Labour Prty and said 





> _“Most of what I believe would be standard left-wing… I believe in what I believe in. I believe in a strong public sector, I believe in the NHS. If there was a traditional left-wing, yes… that’s what I believe in…
> 
> I definitely endorse the right to strike and I think the Labour Party needs to stand up for the right to strike more often… I always support the trade unionists, I’m naturally inclined to support the trade unionists and I think Labour needs to reconnect with the trade unions… Generally I support strikers and certainly I support the right to strike…_
> 
> _The first issue and the one I am most concerned about is the NHS. I think we’ve lost sight of why we had an NHS. We’ve lost sight of why the Labour Party created the NHS and we need to return to those principles. And it’s under very sustained attack now by the Tories. They’re gonna try and do now what Thatcher couldn’t do, which was entirely privatise the NHS.”_



It would be interesting to see what the outcome would be she has the tactical nous to combine that with her anti Islam propaganda .


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## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2017)

Apparantly it was launched as a party on Friday 
For Britain Party Launching on Friday - Anne Marie Waters


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## Red Sky (Oct 9, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly it was launched as a party on Friday
> For Britain Party Launching on Friday - Anne Marie Waters



Didn't know about the Brighton stuff. Pavilion is a safe Green seat so be selected there doesn't mean she was particularly well thought of.


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## The39thStep (Oct 9, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Didn't know about the Brighton stuff. Pavilion is a safe Green seat so be selected there doesn't mean she was particularly well thought of.


Shortlisted rather than selected


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## Silas Loom (Oct 9, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly it was launched as a party on Friday
> For Britain Party Launching on Friday - Anne Marie Waters



Starting simultaneous fights with Maserati and Poseidon by nicking their trident logo is one up on irritating the Premier League.


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## rekil (Oct 9, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> are you sure you're not thinking of




I wonder if Ian was 'trolling'.


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## Red Sky (Oct 9, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly it was launched as a party on Friday
> For Britain Party Launching on Friday - Anne Marie Waters



"our new website and membership system will be ready on Friday 13th October." 

Not superstitious then.


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## butchersapron (Oct 9, 2017)

There isn't any space for anything not labour or tory centred. Anything outside has two options - pretend to be a nice lean in like momentum or by definition be outside - in which case, how to show legitimacy? Legitimacy in this country trad est by participation in a) community action b) elections.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 9, 2017)

The most direct route to political irrelevance for those not seeking legitimacy is to oppose something that most right minded people would support. Protests stemming from kids being blown up slots neatly into that.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 9, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> How on earth is asking for hate preachers to be arrested a boost for Islamaphobia?



Fair point, has Hopkins been nicked yet?


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## krink (Oct 10, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly it was launched as a party on Friday
> For Britain Party Launching on Friday - Anne Marie Waters


I was told she is launching the new party at the latest Justice for Chelsey protest here in Sunderland this Saturday. (I don't have a link to hand, sorry.) If it is the case, that is some bare faced cheek as even the local fash have been more discreet when cashing in on this poor lass.


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## PaulOK (Oct 10, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Not sure if Ann Marie Waters For Britain campaign is just a faction in UKIP or the start of a new organisation.
> Does anyone know anything about her when she was a Labour Party member? .



She also tried to become a PPC for a Swindon Labour seat and Andy Newman of Socialist Unity, I think, was on the panel who interviewed her. He remarked that she couldn't answer what she did for a living, how she supported herself financially (a reasonable question for a panel to ask) and shifted uncomfortably in her seat when pressed. Anyway, she didn't get selected and went on to hawk herself around various constituencies in an attempt to get selected before leaving Labour.

Andy Newman actually called her out very early on (she was in Sharia Watch while still in the Labour Party) and got grief from Harrys Place and AWL types who defended her. A few months later she decamped to UKIP and then started appearing on platforms with "Tommy Robinson". Her attempts to incite serious public disorder with a London based 'Mohammed' Cartoon competition did not impress the Security Services and the venue pulled out after a phone call. Even 'Tommy Robinson' thought it a bad idea.

Anyhow, do a search on her name on SocialistUnity.com and her story and Andy Newman's comments will come up.


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## PaulOK (Oct 10, 2017)

krink said:


> I was told she is launching the new party at the latest Justice for Chelsey protest here in Sunderland this Saturday. (I don't have a link to hand, sorry.) If it is the case, that is some bare faced cheek as even the local fash have been more discreet when cashing in on this poor lass.



She will use this thing as a vehicle to make £££. When she has wrung everything out of it that she can then she will simply wind it up and move on to the next scheme. She is like 'Tommy Robinson' in that regard - basically a huckster. It's better than doing a real job I suppose. It is not a serious long term political project.

She was interviewed on the Jon Gaunt podcast a few days ago and spent most of it asking for money.


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## steeplejack (Oct 10, 2017)

"For Britain" looks like re-heated Veritas soup wth added Islamophobic croutons.

Will have the same butterfly-life as umpteen previous far-right groupuscules. Anne Marie Waters seems a female version of Paul Weston. Both utterly bizarre and inhabiting a parallel reality.

All we need is for someone like Kev Carroll to come back in a party chairman-type role and the circle will be complete.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 10, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The most direct route to political irrelevance for those not seeking legitimacy is to oppose something that most right minded people would support. Protests stemming from kids being blown up slots neatly into that.
> 
> View attachment 117439





PaulOK said:


> She will use this thing as a vehicle to make £££. When she has wrung everything out of it that she can then she will simply wind it up and move on to the next scheme. She is like 'Tommy Robinson' in that regard - basically a huckster. It's better than doing a real job I suppose. It is not a serious long term political project.
> 
> She was interviewed on the Jon Gaunt podcast a few days ago and spent most of it asking for money.



I get the same vibe. The main party page is very focused on her. The model of "party as personality vehicle" often ends up not working out in the long run especially when there's not much personality to begin with. The page also gives much prominence to donation requests.

ETA: Of course 20 high profile UKIPers make decent wedge and gravy as MEPs who are proud to do fuck-all. I can imagine her getting quite envious of that.


----------



## manji (Oct 11, 2017)

The Football Lads Alliance is a working-class movement – and the political class wants to ignore it | Coffee House

Discovered this on the Red Action Facebook Page.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 11, 2017)

manji said:


> The Football Lads Alliance is a working-class movement – and the political class wants to ignore it | Coffee House
> 
> Discovered this on the Red Action Facebook Page.


At least put a Brendan O'Neill trigger warning on it!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> She also tried to become a PPC for a Swindon Labour seat and Andy Newman of Socialist Unity, I think, was on the panel who interviewed her. He remarked that she couldn't answer what she did for a living, how she supported herself financially (a reasonable question for a panel to ask) and shifted uncomfortably in her seat when pressed. Anyway, she didn't get selected and went on to hawk herself around various constituencies in an attempt to get selected before leaving Labour.
> 
> Andy Newman actually called her out very early on (she was in Sharia Watch while still in the Labour Party) and got grief from Harrys Place and AWL types who defended her. A few months later she decamped to UKIP and then started appearing on platforms with "Tommy Robinson". Her attempts to incite serious public disorder with a London based 'Mohammed' Cartoon competition did not impress the Security Services and the venue pulled out after a phone call. Even 'Tommy Robinson' thought it a bad idea.
> 
> Anyhow, do a search on her name on SocialistUnity.com and her story and Andy Newman's comments will come up.


Thanks , that fills a few holes in her story. 
Tbf most people would shift uncomfortably in their seat if sitting opposite Andy Newman.


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## 19force8 (Oct 11, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> At least put a Brendan O'Neill trigger warning on it!


The fucking Spectator 

Here's some mental Listerine from Zelo Street: Zelo Street: Spectator Backs Football Hooligans


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2017)

19force8 said:


> The fucking Spectator
> 
> Here's some mental Listerine from Zelo Street: Zelo Street: Spectator Backs Football Hooligans


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 11, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> At least put a Brendan O'Neill trigger warning on it!



He describes the FLA as "fascinating" !?

So a bunch of balding, clinically obese, 40-something Casuals, dressed in Stone Island and Adidas trainers (exactly as they were dressed when they were 15  - except about 5 sizes bigger), walking from point A to point B, are "fascinating" ?

They are essentially the same right wing goon squad who have existed in England for the past 30+ years in varies guises  - ironically they would have been the same guys who would have been spitting at little Brendan when he was on Irish Freedom Movement marches when he was part of the RCP in the 80's. These people tend to hate the Irish as much as they hate Muslims. Merely having the surname 'O'Neill' would be enough to warrant a smack from these guys.

Now we have the unedifying sight of Brendan O'Neill sucking up to them. He probably swoons at the sight of a 'rough n tough' football hooligan. In the same way Morrissey has/had a thing for skinheads.


----------



## Silas Loom (Oct 11, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> He probably swoons at the sight of a 'rough n tough' football hooligan. In the same way Morrissey has/has a thing for skinheads.



I'd normally cheer any denunciation of O'Neill, and you have him bang to rights for the most part, but is there any need for the quote above? Isn't O'Neill, anyway, a noted opponent of gay marriage and veering on the homophobic in his general mistrust of the pro-gay progressive elites? So chucking a homophobic slur in is rather out of place.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 11, 2017)

Where's the homophobia?


----------



## Silas Loom (Oct 11, 2017)

Poi E said:


> Where's the homophobia?



The BO'N probably fancies hoolies, hur hur, bit. It's not a huge issue, just seemed a bit out of place and there are so many better grounds to get the bastard on - including, of course, homophobia.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 11, 2017)

Silas Loom said:


> I'd normally cheer any denunciation of O'Neill, and you have him bang to rights for the most part, but is there any need for the quote above? Isn't O'Neill, anyway, a noted opponent of gay marriage and veering on the homophobic in his general mistrust of the pro-gay progressive elites? So chucking a homophobic slur in is rather out of place.



Apologies.

The words 'sucking', 'swoon' and 'Morrissey' in my post #737 have clear gay overtones but I honestly didn't mean them to have.

Sorry for any offence caused.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 11, 2017)

Poi E said:


> Where's the homophobia?



Something like - morrissey's fascination with skinheads can only be homoerotic rather than class based (despite him being from a northern working class background).

It's not a slur just a blindly optimistic sense of his own incompetence in understanding what the fuck is going on.

But what is also fascinating are the responses from 'the left' when the middle class have no purpose in the locus of the narrative.


----------



## Silas Loom (Oct 11, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Apologies.
> 
> The words 'sucking', 'swoon' and 'Morrissey' in my post #737 have clear gay overtones but I honestly didn't mean them to have.
> 
> Sorry for any offence caused.



Apologies in turn if I was jumping to unfair conclusions.


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

Apparently Tommy Robinson and big Paul campion are having a massive power struggle ruck, according to the Facebook group 'last days of silence'


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2017)

Nice one said:


> Something like - morrissey's fascination with skinheads can only be homoerotic rather than class based (despite him being from a northern working class background).
> 
> It's not a slur just a blindly optimistic sense if his own incompetence in understanding what the fuck is going on.
> 
> But what is also fascinating are the responses from 'the left' when the middle class have no purpose in the locus of the narrative.



morrissey on suedehead


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2017)

AverageJoe said:


> Apparently Tommy Robinson and big Paul campion are having a massive power struggle ruck, according to the Facebook group 'last days of silence'


thought they'd wait to at least halloween


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> He describes the FLA as "fascinating" !?
> 
> So a bunch of balding, clinically obese, 40-something Casuals, *dressed in Stone Island and Adidas trainers (*exactly as they were dressed when they were 15  - except about 5 sizes bigger), walking from point A to point B, are "fascinating" ?
> 
> ...



if its not the above its ill fitting suits .What other fashion sins will they be committing next?
im not sure that they are the same right wing goon squad, no doubt members of the said goon squad were no doubt on the march but the majority were well behaved and didnt spit.


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2017)

AverageJoe said:


> Apparently Tommy Robinson and big Paul campion are having a massive power struggle ruck, according to the Facebook group 'last days of silence'



how big is massiove in your opinion and what is this power struggle ruck about


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 11, 2017)

AverageJoe said:


> Apparently Tommy Robinson and big Paul campion are having a massive power struggle ruck, according to the Facebook group 'last days of silence'



Found the page but not the thread. What's the OP?


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Found the page but not the thread. What's the OP?



When facebook is up again I'll find it.


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> how big is massiove in your opinion and what is this power struggle ruck about



From what I can understand, people are rounding on big Phil as he has told Tommy that he is a racist and isn't welcome any more. Other FLA etc are saying that big Phil has sold Tommy out to keep hold of his sky TV contract as an 'expert'.

I'm not in the group but a 'friend' invited me, so I get the updates. So I'm just lurking there.


----------



## Fingers (Oct 11, 2017)

AverageJoe said:


> When facebook is up again I'll find it.



Seems to be back


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

Log in to Facebook | Facebook

There you go. Hope that works

And hopefully this

Log in to Facebook | Facebook

And this
Log in to Facebook | Facebook


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 11, 2017)

AverageJoe said:


> Log in to Facebook | Facebook
> 
> There you go. Hope that works
> 
> ...



soz, seem broken. don't worry about it.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 11, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> morrissey on suedehead



LB: "For starters, surely 'Suedehead' has something to do with Richard Allen's pre-punk seminal trash novel of the same name? Yet there's no mention of suedehead(s) in the lyrics?"
M: "No, I'd noticed that. Does the song have anything to do with the title? Well, I did happen to read the book when it came out and I was quite interested in the whole Richard Allen cult. But really I just like the word 'suedehead'."
LB: "So it's not even based on an episode from _Suedehead_?"
M: "No, not really."


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 11, 2017)

AverageJoe said:


> From what I can understand, people are rounding on big Phil as he has told Tommy that he is a racist and isn't welcome any more. Other FLA etc are saying that big Phil has sold Tommy out to keep hold of his sky TV contract as an 'expert'.
> 
> I'm not in the group but a 'friend' invited me, so I get the updates. So I'm just lurking there.




Thanks.Very interesting, a seeming split by people who are soft on Lennon then. If significant amount of high-ups are supportive of the criminal thug (Lennon that is) that's enough info for me. 

I've already seen carbon copy shite from the EDL days among supporters of FLA - the frothing paranoia about TEH LEFT!!!, zero nuance or interest regarding the spectrum of Islamic opinion, the whole "HOW CAN WE BE RACIST LOOK A PICTURE OF A BLACK PERSON" shite and plenty more besides. Anyone who disagrees is a traitor, extremist etc. Those who aren't conscious fascists are either on the sympathy spectrum and ideal dupes or will sooner or later lose interest.


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> soz, seem broken. don't worry about it.



Soz. Here's hopefully one of them faithfully screenshotted but maybe not in the right order...


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

And then


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

And


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 11, 2017)

AverageJoe said:


> Soz. Here's hopefully one of them faithfully screenshotted but maybe not in the right order...



That screenshot has the name of the sharer on it.


----------



## AverageJoe (Oct 11, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> That screenshot has the name of the sharer on it.



I know. I left that on there in case you could access the group via it. I assume it's a closed grouo


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 11, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> That screenshot has the name of the sharer on it.



Facebook has 2 billion accounts. Is about as close to automatic public record as it gets, no matter how "secret" we might think certain groups. It may be preferable to protect anonymity but I wouldn't lose sleep over this.

It only seems to be one person but I'd be surprised if she was unique in her attitude. The post is replete with tickboxes of far right froth and rhetoric. Cant be arsed in specifying. Thanks a lot for the uploads though Joe.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 11, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I've already seen carbon copy shite from the EDL days among supporters of FLA - the frothing paranoia about TEH LEFT!!!, zero nuance or interest regarding the spectrum of Islamic opinion, the whole "HOW CAN WE BE RACIST LOOK A PICTURE OF A BLACK PERSON" shite and plenty more besides. Anyone who disagrees is a traitor, extremist etc. Those who aren't conscious fascists are either on the sympathy spectrum and ideal dupes or will sooner or later lose interest.



The ‘left’ are being equally hysterical. This opposition has grown from a series of attacks this year. Personally I do have a problem with clerical-fascist cunts attacking people and the ‘left’ squealing wacist at opposition that doesn’t look middle class enough for their liking is doing nothing but driving it to become what they don’t want it to be.
It’s easy pointing to the far right getting its claws on the opposition and calling it wacist when the left have absolutely nothing to say on the matter. 
They’re giving the far right that space to do this.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 11, 2017)

Magnus

_"the ‘left’ squealing wacist at opposition that doesn’t look middle class enough for their liking"_

You're really hooked into this "wacist" thing. I've no idea what the attraction is. It seems in the category of alt-rightists moaning about SJWs and virtue signalling (because in their Orwellian terms, social justice and virtue are something to be inherently suspicious of)

Opposition to racism (well founded or not) is just that. The conflation of class and race is often very problematic. Anti racism is in defence of working class victims of racism at least as much as it is in defence of middle class victims.

There's an increasing way in which "working class" is talked about in this context that doesn't seem to consider the interests or experiences of BME working class people at all (I'm not fond of "BME" as a phrase, just using it as shorthand). As such, it is a fake invocation, an abuse of the term in order to afford credibility to some pretty noxious attitudes and to set up a fake barrier, implication being: "this is working class (we appoint ourselves to say so). Therefore if you disagree it means you are anti-working class"

Do the people making such invocations ever promote class interests through such activities as community solidarity, unions etc. or does it strangely remain limited to slagging off the islams and perhaps moaning about immigrants who are very often working class, and singing such stalwart working class anthems as "God Save The Queen"?

All that said, most racism is driven by bourgeois or elite interests anyway IMO.

"They’re giving the far right that space to do this." - there is a risk of that for sure, but I think it can be overstated, especially by the far-right and fellow travellers who (1) love to play the martyr and (2) love to exaggerate.

Again there's an underlying phony logic: You know what makes people racist? People saying people are racist. That's what.

To an extent this can happen, but what it tends to also do is smother  (as it has done for a long time) the possibility of racism really being discussed at all. there is still much racism about (not that consideration of victims gets much of a look in, god forbid) but the reactionaries have had near 2 generations of bolstering the idea that any naming of the beast is PC Gone Mad (tm)  They genuinely advance that saying something is racist automatically negates an argument. And now these cunts have taken the whitehouse but some liberals and leftists still tip toe around the argument, ironically over sensitive to describing racism for what it is in case it offends people.

ETA: This isn't to say I see your case as entirely wrong Magnus, but it is on one end of a spectrum that gets a lot of emphasis, as mine is on a different part of the spectrum that can get less.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 11, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> He describes the FLA as "fascinating" !?
> 
> So a bunch of balding, clinically obese, 40-something Casuals, dressed in Stone Island and Adidas trainers (exactly as they were dressed when they were 15  - except about 5 sizes bigger), walking from point A to point B, are "fascinating" ?
> 
> ...



Now come one, these guys tended to hate Irish *catholics* back then, as much as they hate Muslims now.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2017)

Couldn't find an FLA website, maybe there isnt one. I was keen to see what an organisation described by the historically proletarian Spectator "working class" might be looking to do in terms of support for community owned teams, encouraging more community participation from clubs, more accessible pricing...you know, actual issues of working class concern. never mind, maybe that's all to come.

So I went on to the Twitter page. Understandably there's a lot of talk about how amazing the march was, alot of complaining about how the press didnt cover it (they actually did more so than most marches of that side...but..detail). Get past that to the retweets of Katie Hopkins, Steven Lennon, people with For Britain avatars and I defy anyone to say that this doesn't highly risk being the same EDL shit in a different bucket (right down to the "look - here's some Sikhs that like us").

Not that it couldn't be worse, there isn't much febrile hatred to be fair. although any association with the froth of Anne Marie Waters and the open genocidalism of Hopkins isn't a great look in the "hatred" department. Perhaps that will come in time as well.

ETA: been thinking about a major difference between FLA and EDL. 

FLA is genuinelly rooted in football, the EDL appropriated the language of football and tried to recruit through it, but was fundamentally a transparent hoax in this regard.

It anything is to be the salvation of FLA in being non racist / anti racist then this fact is near the top of the list. But as I've said, it's just too attractive to fascists to not make an effort, at best there will be trouble ahead internally.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> FLA is genuinelly rooted in football, the EDL appropriated the language of football and tried to recruit through it, but was fundamentally a transparent hoax in this regard.



Key point.

Some people are scratching their heads wondering why this thing has mobilized such massive numbers. The whole Football angle is key. Had it been called the "People's Alliance" or the "English Lads Alliance" and not organised via football it would have gotten a few hundred at most. The ability to mobilise large numbers of football Casuals (on non-football league weekends) is the reason it is so large.

The political impact this FLA thing can make is debatable. Fascists in Britain have had no real problems mobilising numbers of working class street activists. Their problem organizationally has always been developing an effective, university educated middle cadre/leadership. It has hamstrung them from progressing since the War.

While a left wing Labour Party is in opposition and providing a fairly radical alternative vision, the fascists ability to grow in the current period will be limited (traditionally the fascists in Britain grow when Labour are in government - and with the acute polarization in Britain I expect the fascists to grow massively when/if Corbyn gets in). For the fascists now it is about maintaining a semblance of organisation together in preparation for the future. The FLA could play a small part in that.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Key point.
> 
> Some people are scratching their heads wondering why this thing has mobilized such massive numbers. The whole Football angle is key. Had it been called the "People's Alliance" or the "English Lads Alliance" and not organised via football it would have gotten a few hundred at most. The ability to mobilise large numbers of football Casuals (on non-football league weekends) is the reason it is so large.
> 
> ...



A pretty much tautological post. Plus youre saying the reason football lads attended this march was because of what is was called. Seriously? 

Three things missing from your analysis - constituency, agency and historical context. 

Why are these pissed off angry and organised working class people acting in a way you find unpalatable?  It's their fault and not yours. 

Are you american?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Now come one, these guys tended to hate Irish *catholics* back then, as much as they hate Muslims now.


'up to our knees in fenian blood, surrender or you die'


----------



## editor (Oct 12, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> 'up to our knees in fenian blood, surrender or you die'



God, I hate the whole Celtic vs Rangers thing.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> A pretty much tautological post. Plus youre saying the reason football lads attended this march was because of what is was called. Seriously?
> 
> Three things missing from your analysis - constituency, agency and historical context.
> 
> ...



The march was organised in and among groups of organised football fans (firms) and their hangers on - groups organised expensive looking wreaths with their clubs crests on them - they wanted to be represented on it - I stand by my contention that had the BNP, Britain First, EDL or NF etc. had called it with exactly the same name then it would have received a fraction of the attendance. The football dimension is key. Also if this march was called this coming Saturday, when regular league games are back being played after the international break, it would have had a few hundred at most.  I can guarantee that when West Ham play Spurs on October 25th the groups who marched together will be knocking six bells out of each other again - the political impact of this thing should not be overstated and it is organizationally fragile. It has no real core- built on sand.

My view is that a fair amount of the participants on the march on Saturday would be some sort of Tory politically - lairy "loadsofmoney" types. Others would be fascists, EDL and that most pathetic of political specimens - English ulster Loyalists.

"Pissed off and angry working class" ? They represent a small section of the working class - the working class is represented by a far greater constituency than these planks.

"My fault" ? - I wish.....if only I had that much influence.

"unpalatable" - Being an anti-fascist I am opposed to it but it doesn't keep me up at night. I am surprised this sort of thing isn't bigger tbh.

No, I am not American.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> The march was organised in and among groups of organised football fans (firms) and their hangers on - groups organised expensive looking wreaths with their clubs crests on them - they wanted to be represented on it - I stand by my contention that had the BNP, Britain First, EDL or NF etc. had called it with exactly the same name then it would have received a fraction of the attendance. The football dimension is key. Also if this march was called this coming Saturday, when regular league games are back being played after the international break, it would have had a few hundred at most.  I can guarantee that when West Ham play Spurs on October 25th the groups who marched together will be knocking six bells out of each other again - the political impact of this thing should not be overstated and it is organizationally fragile. It has no real core- built on sand.
> 
> My view is that a fair amount participants on the march on Saturday would be some sort of Tory politically - lairy "loadsofmoney" types. Others would be fascists, EDL and that most pathetic of political specimens - English ulster Loyalists.
> 
> ...


tbh people said much the same about the edl in its early days


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> The march was organised in and among groups of organised football fans (firms) and their hangers on - groups organised expensive looking wreaths with their clubs crests on them - they wanted to be represented on it - I stand by my contention that had the BNP, Britain First, EDL or NF etc. had called it with exactly the same name then it would have received a fraction of the attendance. The football dimension is key. Also if this march was called this coming Saturday, when regular league games are back being played after the international break, it would have had a few hundred at most.  I can guarantee that when West Ham play Spurs on October 25th the groups who marched together will be knocking six bells out of each other again - the political impact of this thing should not be overstated and it is organizationally fragile. It has no real core- built on sand.
> 
> My view is that a fair amount of the participants on the march on Saturday would be some sort of Tory politically - lairy "loadsofmoney" types. Others would be fascists, EDL and that most pathetic of political specimens - English ulster Loyalists.
> 
> ...



Its not about representation, they ARE working class, whether you like it or not. And you obviously dont like it. They are not behaving as your leftist ideology demands - as rebellious workers (for want of a better phrase).

And because they are not acting out their historical role (in this instance) you have the ability, indeed you have the right, to demean them. And the only way you can demean them is by stripping them of their class constituency. They are the wrong working class.

To be fair pal ive met so many arrogant fuckedup racist middle class anti-fascists - who use the label 'anti fascism' as a shield of moral superiority, telling me youre anti-fascist is meaningless in this context.

For a non american you use a lot of zeds.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> Its not about representation, they ARE working class, whether you like it ot not. And you obviously dont like it. They are not behaving as your leftist ideology demands - as rebellious workers (for want of a better phrase).
> 
> And because they are not acting out their historical role (on this instance) you have the ability, indeed you have the right, to demean them. And they only way you can demean them is by stripping them of their class constituency. They are the wrong working class.
> 
> ...



1. I am not middle class.....and I am not your pal.

2. Couldn't give a monkeys if they are rebellious or not.

3. I only care about getting Corbyn in and the FLA will have little to no impact on that.

4. USA spellchecker in this computer that I can't be arsed to find out how to turn off.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> Its not about representation, they ARE working class, whether you like it or not.



They're going to be predominantly working class. That doesn't automatically mean they represent the working class. But, beyond that, it doesn't automatically mean anything.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Raheem said:


> They're going to be predominantly working class. That doesn't automatically mean they represent the working class. It doesn't automatically mean anything.



I didnt say anything about representation, that was my pal from the labour party above.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> I didnt say anything about representation, that was my pal from the labour party above.



Which is why I added that it doesn't automatically mean anything. They're predominantly working class. So..?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> I didnt say anything about representation, that was my pal from the labour party above.



You have a pal in the Labour Party? Shame on you!!! 

It's not articul8 , is it?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> You have a pal in the Labour Party? Shame on you!!!
> 
> It's not articul8 , is it?



not middle class - friend4life 

My pal in momentum? My pal in novara media? My pal owen jones?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Which is why I added that it doesn't automatically mean anything. They're predominantly working class. So..?



i agree entirely, it doesn't mean anything. It is though a starting point. If your starting point is to exclude the class constituency of the assembled mass you don't have to worry about how they got there and why you, as a radical leftist, have no impact on their political expression. You can just trot out the usual middle class tropes against the type of working class you hate. The wrong working class.

If on the other hand you start from the position these are a large assembly of pissed of working class people (the brendan oneill article) then the next step would be to question why/how 'the left' have simply discarded them as... [add you own usual middle class trope here].

Fear of the working class is the left's greatest motivator and biggest nightmare.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> i agree entirely, it doesn't mean anything. It is though a starting point. If your starting point is to exclude the class constituency of the assembled mass you don't have to worry about how they got there and why you, as a radical leftist, have no impact on their political expression. You can just trot out the usual middle class tropes against the type of working class you hate. The wrong working class.
> 
> If on the other hand you start from the position these are a large assembly of pissed of working class people (the brendan oneill article) then the next step would be to question why/how 'the left' have simply discarded them as... [add you own usual middle class trope here].
> 
> Fear of the working class is the left's greatest motivator and biggest nightmare.



Are they an "assembled mass", though? How many of them are there? If what they might represent doesn't come into it, are there enough to think of them as "the wrong working class"?

Like the EDL, it's got to be true that they are occupying some space that wasn't occupied by the left. But do we know how significant the space was?


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> i agree entirely, it doesn't mean anything. It is though a starting point. If your starting point is to exclude the class constituency of the assembled mass you don't have to worry about how they got there and why you, as a radical leftist, have no impact on their political expression. You can just trot out the usual middle class tropes against the type of working class you hate. The wrong working class.
> 
> If on the other hand you start from the position these are a large assembly of pissed of working class people (the brendan oneill article) then the next step would be to question why/how 'the left' have simply discarded them as... [add you own usual middle class trope here].
> 
> Fear of the working class is the left's greatest motivator and biggest nightmare.



Bigoted nonsense.

A bunch of balding 40 something football hooligans in Fila tracksuit tops (something they should have stopped wearing in their mid 20's) are not the arbiters of who is and who is not working class.

How are these guys any more working class than a Black cleaner working in a NHS hospital ?

Millions of working class people of all races and religions voted Labour on June 8th. They are voting in the interests of their class. What are these people doing? Demanding that the State brings in internment ? How radical !


----------



## chilango (Oct 12, 2017)

I’m a balding 40 something. You got a problem with that PaulOK?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> A bunch of balding 40 something football hooligans


Bigoted nonsense.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Bigoted nonsense.
> 
> A bunch of balding 40 something football hooligans in Fila tracksuit tops (something they should have stopped wearing in their mid 20's) are not the arbiters of who is and who is not working class.
> 
> ...



You sneering turd.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> (something they should have stopped wearing in their mid 20's)


i see the fashion police are here


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 12, 2017)

Middle Class Jeremy for PM! 

What a load of bollocks.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Bigoted nonsense.
> 
> A bunch of balding 40 something football hooligans in Fila tracksuit tops



Pringle jumpers for goal posts


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Middle Class Jeremy for PM!
> 
> What a load of bollocks.



So what if he is middle class ? His policies will help working class people or would you rather the Tories in power?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> So what if he is middle class ? His policies will help working class people or would you rather the Tories in power?



I’d rather something outside of that binary.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

sunnysidedown said:


> Pringle jumpers for goal posts



Val Doonican chic


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’d rather something outside of that binary.


Liberal Democrats ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Liberal Democrats ?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Bigoted nonsense.
> 
> A bunch of balding 40 something football hooligans in Fila tracksuit tops (something they should have stopped wearing in their mid 20's) are not the arbiters of who is and who is not working class.
> 
> ...


I think everybody who attends glastonbury should be interned... in glastonbury, for the other 361 days of the year.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

chilango said:


> I’m a balding 40 something. You got a problem with that PaulOK?



Don't take stuff personally.

Being bald and 40 is fine - however being both when marching for internment and other associated reactionary bollocks is not fine.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> I think everybody who attends glastonbury should be interned... in glastonbury, for the other 361 days of the year.



Something we agree on.

P.S. I see all the FLA merchandise has suddenly started to appear (T-Shirts and pin badges etc.). Now watch the whole thing fall apart in a bun fight over money...just like the EDL before "Tommy" jacked to Quilliam.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Don't take stuff personally.
> 
> Being bald and 40 is fine - however being both when marching for internment and other associated reactionary bollocks is not fine.


Yeh. Don't go canvassing for labour,chuck, not if you support them


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> I think everybody who attends glastonbury should be interned... in glastonbury, for the other 361 days of the year.



Not the town itself, surely?   That would be cruel and unusual punishment.  There is only so much exposure to dream catchers a human being can take.


----------



## sealion (Oct 12, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> 'up to our knees in fenian blood, surrender or you die'



It works both ways with these 2 clubs. Not sure it will ever change.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 12, 2017)

sealion said:


> It works both ways with these 2 clubs. Not sure it will ever change.


I have to draw the conclusion you have not got a fookin clue what you are talking about.


----------



## sealion (Oct 12, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> His policies


What are his policies for the working classes ?


----------



## sealion (Oct 12, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> I have to draw the conclusion you have not got a fookin clue what you are talking about.


I think i do. I drank in Celtic pubs in london for long enough and heard much the same. Are you saying it's only Rangers that sing these shitty songs and it's only them that's full of hatred ?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Not the town itself, surely?   That would be cruel and unusual punishment.  There is only so much exposure to dream catchers a human being can take.



get those chakras cleaned out!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

sealion said:


> I think i do. I drank in Celtic pubs in london for long enough and heard much the same. Are you saying it's only Rangers that sing these shitty songs and it's only them that's full of hatred ?


Jelly and ice cream when rangers die


----------



## LiamO (Oct 12, 2017)

sealion said:


> I think i do. I drank in Celtic pubs in london for long enough and heard much the same. Are you saying it's only Rangers that sing these shitty songs and it's only them that's full of hatred ?




Ok. I'll bite.

Show me the Celtic equivalent of singing "We're up to our knees in Fenian blood". I can't think of one and I'm pretty sure I know most.

I don't mean show me an offensive song Celtic fans sing. There are plenty. My own persona favourite is the 'Michael Fegan fucked yer Queen' one. Not that it is particularly witty, but because of the apoplectic rage it induces in the rancid, serried ranks of the Newco knuckle-draggers.

Now the Newco equivalent of that one would probably be their songs about Bobby Sands. That's equally offensive.

But the 'Billy Boys' (and the 'Billy' in question is Billy Fullerton - a member of the British Union of Fascists and a Scab organiser during the General Strike in 1926 - and most definitely not about King Billy) is about racial superiority and slaughtering people _en masse_. I can think of many songs that Celtic fans sing that are about defiance, about civil disobedience and about armed struggle. But none that celebrate Fascism or are based on any racial/religious superiority.

It is not a song sung only by a minority of Newco's finest either is it? Until recently it was played over the tannoy at Ibroke every week.

Show me the Celtic equivalent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> .
> 
> Fear of the working class is the left's greatest motivator and biggest nightmare.



 with millions of working class folk still in unions,and therefore by definition a part of "the left", and many turning out in big numbers to vote for strikes of late, no doubt to some extent emboldened by the current resurgence of "the left "/ broad opposition to austerity / neo liberal stasis , this doesn't really make sense on any wider basis at the moment, does it ?

if you're defining "the left " as the SUTR / UAF and Jolyon Maughan and Helen Lewis, and "the working class" as The FLA, fair enough, fill your boots, stick with your late 90's / noughties credo,  but a bit of realism / acknowledgement as to what's actually going at the moment might go a long way.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 12, 2017)

sealion said:


> I think i do. I drank in Celtic pubs in london for long enough and heard much the same. Are you saying it's only Rangers that sing these shitty songs and it's only them that's full of hatred ?



you've finally made it out of the football forum then ? 

Cough  <<<wannabee>>>


----------



## sealion (Oct 12, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Ok. I'll bite.


Not a wind up from me. I say it how i see it. For the record both my parents are Irish catholics so im hardly defending Rangers. But like i said i heard lots of shitty stuff from both sides when many a pub i used in the eighies was frequented by these lads. I went to an old firm game (with celtic lads and my cousin) and they were attacking each other with swords ffs. I can't compare one song of hatred to another, you have me there but i know what i have seen and heard from both sides. That's why i say they are as bad as each other imo. Arguing over who uses the nastiest words when they are willing to chop each other up is a pointless, again imo.


----------



## sealion (Oct 12, 2017)

cantsin said:


> you've finally made it out of the football forum then ?


Have you been waiting Long ?


----------



## cantsin (Oct 12, 2017)

sealion said:


> Have you been waiting Long ?



with baited breath


----------



## sealion (Oct 12, 2017)

cantsin said:


> with baited breath


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Are they an "assembled mass", though? How many of them are there? If what they might represent doesn't come into it, are there enough to think of them as "the wrong working class"?
> 
> Like the EDL, it's got to be true that they are occupying some space that wasn't occupied by the left. But do we know how significant the space was?



okay not going to get into semantics, if you want to change 'assembled mass' to 'those present' i'm happy. 

You insist they should represent something... that seems to be your start point. If we can define what they represent we can unify against them, and being the wrong working class happily won't come into it. They represent bad things and bad things should be opposed.

Let me put it a different way, leftist politics now is filtered exclusively through a 'middle class gaze' (apologies for borrowing from feminist terminology). The right working class are those that go on strike, that support progressive causes, that fit the criteria of the leftist middle class. 

The wrong working class are those who don't behave in a way that is acceptable to the codes and conditions of left-wing ideology - they are stripped of their right to be working class. 

If you want me to tell you what the demo on saturday represented here it is: an abyss, and overlooking that abyss two ghostly figures standing holding hands. The taller figure is the last 35 years of the labour party and its deliberate and orchestrated separation from the voter based that created and sustained it, the other is the smaller not fully formed figure of identity politics that has relegated the working class to the least importantt and least significant of the isms. Both are petrified as they look into the chasm they themselves have created.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> okay not going to get into semantics, if you want to change 'assembled mass' to 'those present' i'm happy.
> 
> You insist they should represent something... that seems to be your start point. If we can define what they represent we can unify against them, and being the wrong working class happily won't come into it. They represent bad things and bad things should be opposed.
> 
> ...



Did you do cartoons for Punch?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2017)

Never seen so many LADS on one thread. FOOTBALL LADS at that.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Did you do cartoons for Punch?



the gaze doesn't get more middle class does it


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Never seen so many LADS on one thread. FOOTBALL LADS at that.



talking of which


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> the gaze doesn't get more middle class does it



All it needed was Gladstone holding a torch saying "Prudence".


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> All it needed was Gladstone holding a torch saying "Prudence".



brighton, so much to answer for


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> talking of which


WEARING CLOBBER.

You'll be going boxing next.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> WEARING CLOBBER.
> 
> You'll be going boxing next.



oh shane, its mma now


----------



## Poi E (Oct 12, 2017)

Hard to get to the dogs these days.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> brighton, so much to answer for


Death of parnell etc


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2017)

There's always speedway for the real w/c hipsters eh monte? Get there first mind.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 12, 2017)

sealion said:


> I think i do. I drank in Celtic pubs in london for long enough and heard much the same. Are you saying it's only Rangers that sing these shitty songs and it's only them that's full of hatred ?


It is somewhat more in depth than your give away comment.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 12, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> There's always speedway for the real w/c hipsters eh monte? Get there first mind.


When was the last time you went to Speedway?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> When was the last time you went to Speedway?


One second ago.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> There's always speedway for the real w/c hipsters eh monte? Get there first mind.



 weird obessive, what a_ performance_


----------



## sealion (Oct 12, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> It is somewhat more in depth than your give away comment.


I know.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 12, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> One second ago.


porky pies!


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Death of parnell etc



Looked after Hailie Salassie for a while on the plus side.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> You insist they should represent something... that seems to be your start point. If we can define what they represent we can unify against them, and being the wrong working class happily won't come into it. They represent bad things and bad things should be opposed.



I don't know how you get that idea. I'm accepting your idea that they represent nothing other than themselves. What I am suggesting, though, is that if that's the case, then we only need to worry or think about them in proportion to their size. They don't appear to have an enormous national presence for the time being. So, if their existence is down to a failure of the left, it's not a very big failure. Or, at least, we've no reason to suppose so as yet.

That's not to say I would deny the existence of failures on the left. I just don't think this, in particular, is their manifestation. In fact, I think it might be quite good, in that it looks like a waste of money.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> okay not going to get into semantics, if you want to change 'assembled mass' to 'those present' i'm happy.
> 
> You insist they should represent something... that seems to be your start point. If we can define what they represent we can unify against them, and being the wrong working class happily won't come into it. They represent bad things and bad things should be opposed.
> 
> ...



yep, the prevailing air at Labour Party HQ ( and amongst the 600k members ) at the moment, is deffo likely to be "terror" as they "stare into the  abyss" that is the FLA.

They're trying to hide it, as they get on with supporting CWU members who are hopefully about to properly challenge Tory anti union laws for the first time in a decade, or the RMT members about to strike on the Trains, and down here, Stagecoach.

But deep down, the real focus is deffo the FLA


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I don't know how you get that idea. I'm accepting your idea that they represent nothing other than themselves. What I am suggesting, though, is that if that's the case, then we only need to worry or think about them in proportion to their size. They don't appear to have an enormous national presence for the time being. So, if their existence is down to a failure of the left, it's not a very big failure. Or, at least, we've no reason to suppose so as yet.
> 
> That's not to say I would deny the existence of failures on the left. I just don't think this, in particular, is their manifestation. In fact, I think it might be quite good, in that it looks like a waste of money.



i don't think we are disagreeing, i think we're just talking past each other. Organisational structure involved in the march is paper thin and anchored to nothing beyond the cessation of tribal differences and internal hostilities. John Meighan is a university educated middle class professional. He has credibility though and the state is all over him.

I'm talking about the participants. Those who turned up. They hate the left because the left hate them. QED. But where did they come from? What did they come for? _Whose side are you on? What's your problem?_ [Something about disraeli to appease the grubby middle class posh twats from brighton] etc.

I genuinely think 10,000-20,000 previously non-politically engaged working class people is impressive, especially as it goes against all the traditional expectation of how the far right operate/organise. Impressive is not an acknowledgment of support. How are these working class viewed amongst the middle class left? Yes we all go to speedway, and some of us live our lives outside of the internet, but it's a question not an accusation.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2017)

I went back through the Facebook and Twitter feeds of the FLA. Being as they are so concerned about terrorism I wanted to see their take on Theresa May having lifted control orders on the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group some years ago, a group which the Manchester bomber was linked to. That was a big terror thing wasn't it? He was allowed in and out of the country on terror ops in Libya and Syria. Seems to have returned here 2/3 days before setting off his sophisticated device.

"The FLA must be fuming" I assumed, just as much as they must be angry that the tories are suppressing a report into the funding of the terror on our streets.

But guess what? Not a fucking dicky bird. At last - something they have in common with the establishment media they keep slagging off.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> 10,000-20,000 previously non-politically engaged working class people is impressive



Where does this estimate come from?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> They hate the left because the left hate them.



Not only is that simplistic, it is doing a huge amount of thinking for people on both sides.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 12, 2017)

vice video
"we're the backbone of this country"


----------



## Nice one (Oct 12, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Where does this estimate come from?



does it matter?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 12, 2017)

Raheem said:


> So, if their existence is down to a failure of the left, it's not a very big failure. Or, at least, we've no reason to suppose so as yet.



And supposing your wrong - what then?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> And supposing your wrong - what then?



Then I guess it would be a topic to come back to.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 12, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Then I guess it would be a topic to come back to.



True. But of course by that stage (if they do represent a symptom of a wider working class disquiet) it will already be too late to do anything about it.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 12, 2017)

Nice one said:


> i don't think we are disagreeing, i think we're just talking past each other. Organisational structure involved in the march is paper thin and anchored to nothing beyond the cessation of tribal differences and internal hostilities. John Meighan is a university educated middle class professional. He has credibility though and the state is all over him.
> 
> I'm talking about the participants. Those who turned up. They hate the left because the left hate them. QED. But where did they come from? What did they come for? _Whose side are you on? What's your problem?_ [Something about disraeli to appease the grubby middle class posh twats from brighton] etc.
> 
> I genuinely think 10,000-20,000 previously non-politically engaged working class people is impressive, especially as it goes against all the traditional expectation of how the far right operate/organise. Impressive is not an acknowledgment of support. How are these working class viewed amongst the middle class left? Yes we all go to speedway, and some of us live our lives outside of the internet, but it's a question not an accusation.



Middle class and posh?

Humourless twat.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 12, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Not only is that simplistic, it is doing a huge amount of thinking for people on both sides.



'Group think' does much of the thinking for people on both sides. What it really comes down to is who you hold responsible for remedying the situation.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> True. But of course by that stage (if they do represent a symptom of a wider working class disquiet) it will already be too late to do anything about it.



That's not true. It's never too late or too early. But this has been going on for a good few years, it's failed to grow out of its roots so far, and I don't think it tells the left anything especially useful about what it should be doing that couldn't be worked out otherwise.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2017)

WATCH: Who Are the Football Lads Alliance?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

Nice one said:


> i don't think we are disagreeing, i think we're just talking past each other. Organisational structure involved in the march is paper thin and anchored to nothing beyond the cessation of tribal differences and internal hostilities. John Meighan is a university educated middle class professional. He has credibility though and the state is all over him.
> 
> I'm talking about the participants. Those who turned up. They hate the left because the left hate them. QED. But where did they come from? What did they come for? _Whose side are you on? What's your problem?_ [Something about disraeli to appease the grubby middle class posh twats from brighton] etc.
> 
> I genuinely think 10,000-20,000 previously non-politically engaged working class people is impressive, especially as it goes against all the traditional expectation of how the far right operate/organise. Impressive is not an acknowledgment of support. How are these working class viewed amongst the middle class left? Yes we all go to speedway, and some of us live our lives outside of the internet, but it's a question not an accusation.


yeh. i'm by no means persuaded that these are entirely previously non-politically engaged working class people. could you elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

More football thugs jailed over Spurs clash with West Ham

not sure who you think yer man has credibility with Nice one outside hoolie circles. 

while the fla may not be atm an out and out edl mk 2 it has all the ingredients, and regardless of individual attendees' political beliefs i would be surprised if future mobilisations don't carry islamophobia and racism rather more prominently.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 117699
> More football thugs jailed over Spurs clash with West Ham
> 
> not sure who you think yer man has credibility with Nice one outside hoolie circles.
> ...



A criminal conviction for football hooliganism I would have thought would raise his standing among the people on that march and the people they want to attract. I don't see the FLA standing in elections anytime soon or appearing in a suit on Question Time so a criminal record for violence is nether here nor there.

I cannot, for the life of me, really see the political threat in this thing, even if it has legs (which I don't think it has). Do marches actually change anything anyway? 2003 should have taught us that they can be safely ignored by the State (unless they suit the State's preconceived agenda to respond them).

I suppose they just reinforce the toxic political environment already existing around the issue of Islam but I cannot see that getting much worse than it already is (given the horrific terrorist attacks which already have taken place, pogroms would have happened by now). The English are a politically rather genteel bunch and British State institutions are incredibly solid (probably the most solid of any nation on earth - British revolutionaries have never quite worked this out). They will talk fire and brimstone but will do fuck all in the end.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> A criminal conviction for football hooliganism I would have thought would raise his standing among the people on that march and the people they want to attract. I don't see the FLA standing in elections anytime soon or appearing in a suit on Question Time so a criminal record for violence is nether here nor there.


nice one doesn't need your feeble help


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

Interesting debate and as usual many are off the mark. Football lads are generally working class lads from one town who then seek out working lads from another town to beat the shite out of each other. That is what a certain type of working class lad does. The FLA are not NF fascist, they are not EDL racist. At this point it seems that they are trying to get as wide a cross section of people together to form some kind of alliance. NF is too fascist, EDL too racist so lets try a more watered down version. It will run its course but Spurs and West Ham hate each other as do Chelsea and Spurs then there is Millwall and West Ham and that is without going into smaller clubs across the country who have their own local hate teams. When lads used to travel with England it was not long before local rivalries kicked in and the fighting started. Villa/Birmingham, Wolves/West Brom and so on.  Being done for football violence means nothing more than being done for football violence./ There is nothing political about it other than the state ensuring the working class are occupied with each other rather than confronting the capitalist system.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Interesting debate and as usual many are off the mark. Football lads are generally working class lads from one town who then seek out working lads from another town to beat the shite out of each other. That is what a certain type of working class lad does. The FLA are not NF fascist, they are not EDL racist. At this point it seems that they are trying to get as wide a cross section of people together to form some kind of alliance. NF is too fascist, EDL too racist so lets try a more watered down version. It will run its course but Spurs and West Ham hate each other as do Chelsea and Spurs then there is Millwall and West Ham and that is without going into smaller clubs across the country who have their own local hate teams. When lads used to travel with England it was not long before local rivalries kicked in and the fighting started. Villa/Birmingham, Wolves/West Brom and so on.  Being done for football violence means nothing more than being done for football violence./ There is nothing political about it other than the state ensuring the working class are occupied with each other rather than confronting the capitalist system.


i am glad you have caught up to arguments people were making seven years ago


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i am glad you have caught up to arguments people were making seven years ago


I can assure you that being an ex football hooligan I have been making the same comments for many years and at one time our firm was def anti fascist unfortunately I cannot say that for the current lads in the firm. Unfortunately now days yer middle class gimped up clown only deals in stereotypes so cant make out an anti fascist lad from a fascist lad.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Interesting debate and as usual many are off the mark. Football lads are generally working class lads from one town who then seek out working lads from another town to beat the shite out of each other. That is what a certain type of working class lad does. The FLA are not NF fascist, they are not EDL racist. At this point it seems that they are trying to get as wide a cross section of people together to form some kind of alliance. NF is too fascist, EDL too racist so lets try a more watered down version. It will run its course but Spurs and West Ham hate each other as do Chelsea and Spurs then there is Millwall and West Ham and that is without going into smaller clubs across the country who have their own local hate teams. When lads used to travel with England it was not long before local rivalries kicked in and the fighting started. Villa/Birmingham, Wolves/West Brom and so on.  Being done for football violence means nothing more than being done for football violence./ There is nothing political about it other than the state ensuring the working class are occupied with each other rather than confronting the capitalist system.



so far, only Chelsea showing any signs of not being able to put aside club rivalries / "no racism /no flags etc " issues afaik, and if you look at the average age on that march, few of them actually active any more, except for the odd big set piece , even Spurs / West Ham:  moaning on the Spurs board re: total non sell out for the Cara-fecking-Bou cup next week, reflections that a big needle game like this would never have not sold out before,  it's finally all over etc ..... as for Millwall / West Ham, Millwall v much over  apparently ?

So FLA might actually seem a dignified / relatively constructive occasional social for many of this lot. And if they do manage to keep it all as tidy as this, as limited in it's focus as this, fair play to them. Not exactly 'the abyss' from where this particular lefty is looking


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

cantsin said:


> so far, only Chelsea showing any signs of not being able to put aside club rivalries / "no racism /no flags etc " issues afaik, and if you look at the average age on that march, few of them actually active any more, except for the odd big set piece , even Spurs / West Ham:  moaning on the Spurs board re: total non sell out for the Cara-fecking-Bou cup next week, reflections that a big needle game like this would never have not sold out before,  it's finally all over etc ..... as for Millwall / West Ham, Millwall v much over  apparently ?
> 
> So FLA might actually seem a dignified / relatively constructive occasional social for many of this lot. And if they do manage to keep it all as tidy as this, as limited in it's focus as this, fair play to them. Not exactly 'the abyss' from where this particular lefty is looking


Fair play to em? fuk em is what I say! Welcome Stephen Yukky Lemon on the march, abuse people condeming all terrorism and all you can say is "fair play" ? The organisers know their agenda and I say fuk em. It is just too bad that the left is full of middle class plonkers who dont even know a working class person, dont know how to engage with them or even see them as equals. It should be the left on marches against all exremism but it aint gonna happen until we get more people from the working class. That is the class that some people on here call chavs.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> It is just too bad that the left is full of middle class plonkers who dont even know a working class person, dont know how to engage with them or even see them as equals.


Nothing like a good ol' fashioned bout of negative stereotyping, eh?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

editor said:


> Nothing like a good ol' fashioned bout of negative stereotyping, eh?


You tell me where I can mix with working class lads & lassies in London who are left leaning and I will be there.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2017)

You can go to clapham/clacton with nice one. In your clobber.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

Two recent quotes that are curious 

_"The wrong working class are those who don't behave in a way that is acceptable to the codes and conditions of left-wing ideology - they are stripped of their right to be working class."_

Can anyone point be to a single instance where someone was stripped of their right to be working class? The whole concept seems linguistically bizarre. Thanks.

_"The left is full of middle class plonkers who dont even know a working class person"_

Is there some data to help us investigate this claim, or does it fall under "it is supposed, therefore it's true."

People seem to be making assumptions about other people making assumptions.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> You tell me where I can mix with working class lads & lassies in London who are left leaning and I will be there.


It's really fucking weird that you have to ask.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You can go to clapham/clacton with nice one. In your clobber.


Yes Clacton is fine - no problem - go there regular like.
Clapton - no thanks - full of tossers who are just the type of people i avoid.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Yes Clacton is fine - no problem - go there regular like.
> Clapton - no thanks - full of tossers who are just the type of people i avoid.


What, all of them? And you know this, how?


----------



## Silas Loom (Oct 13, 2017)

cantsin said:


> so far, only Chelsea showing any signs of not being able to put aside club rivalries / "no racism /no flags etc " issues afaik, and if you look at the average age on that march, few of them actually active any more, except for the odd big set piece , even Spurs / West Ham:  *moaning on the Spurs board re: total non sell out for the Cara-fecking-Bou cup next week, reflections that a big needle game like this would never have not sold out before,  it's finally all over* etc ..... as for Millwall / West Ham, Millwall v much over  apparently ?
> 
> So FLA might actually seem a dignified / relatively constructive occasional social for many of this lot. And if they do manage to keep it all as tidy as this, as limited in it's focus as this, fair play to them. Not exactly 'the abyss' from where this particular lefty is looking



Spurs boards are strange places (and there are dozens of them, it's the most fragmented online support base in football) but even if there are people on them strange enough to expect Wembley to sell out for a Coca Cola Cup game against West Ham in the way that it has for Real Madrid the week before, what has that got to do with the antics of hooligans like Meighan? There's little correlation between supporter enthusiasm and hooligan enthusiasm. And jumping from discussions of one, to conclusions about the appeal of FLA to the other, seems very odd.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Two recent quotes that are curious
> 
> _"The wrong working class are those who don't behave in a way that is acceptable to the codes and conditions of left-wing ideology - they are stripped of their right to be working class."_
> 
> ...


Is it ? myself and others have stopped going on demos because these weirdo posh people who dress up as gimps take an instant dislike to normal working class types. Unfortunately we have nothing in common, don't eat lentils, don't dress like something out of the rocky horror show, don't have tattoos and don't carry an anti animal testing bag or hunt sab whatever. They have taken the working class spaces moved into the working class houses(now Flats) but want nothing to do with the working class. A bit like the Notting Hill carnival, they want the black experience but without the black people


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 13, 2017)




----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

editor said:


> What, all of them? And you know this, how?


I know......just park it there. Or even better take a trip there yourself.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Unfortunately we have nothing in common, don't eat lentils, don't dress like something out of the rocky horror show, don't have tattoos and don't carry an anti animal testing bag or hunt sab whatever.


I think for "we" you mean "you."  Mind you, with the massive chip you carry around on your shoulder and your relentless negative stereotyping of people you've never met, I'm not surprised if people don't take to you.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

editor said:


> I think for "we" you mean "you."  Mind you, with the massive chip you carry around on your shoulder and your relentless negative stereotyping of people you've never met, I'm not surprised if people don't take to you.


Trust me I have met more than a few on demos and at meetings. If you cant see what has happened/happening then that is your problem. The left is just not connecting with the working class. Whether you like it or not it is a fact.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

editor said:


> I think for "we" you mean "you."  Mind you, with the massive chip you carry around on your shoulder and your relentless negative stereotyping of people you've never met, I'm not surprised if people don't take to you.


it's not a chip, it's an entire portion


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Trust me I have met more than a few on demos and at meetings. If you cant see what has happened/happening then that is your problem. The left is just not connecting with the working class. Whether you like it or not it is a fact.


if i support a cause i would generally go on a demonstration about it because of the cause not because of the other people on the demo. i've been on loads of demos where i disliked a fair proportion of the people there - anti-war demonstrations leap unbidden to mind - but see no reason to withdraw from that political space on the basis you seem to, that some people you despise despise you too.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 13, 2017)

Silas Loom said:


> Spurs boards are strange places (and there are dozens of them, it's the most fragmented online support base in football) but even if there are people on them strange enough to expect Wembley to sell out for a Coca Cola Cup game against West Ham in the way that it has for Real Madrid the week before, what has that got to do with the antics of hooligans like Meighan? There's little correlation between supporter enthusiasm and hooligan enthusiasm. And jumping from discussions of one, to conclusions about the appeal of FLA to the other, seems very odd.



there's only one Spurs  (old)  hoolie board  / the top tier is closed anyway, so not selling out the rest for what has been in recent years the fiercest local derby is seen as a signifier by some, esp. with some  tickets available at £20 

...if you don't know the correlation between " supporter enthusiasm and hooligan enthusiasm", haven't got the energy to trawl thru it on here...it's just a ...thing....and it's a thing that's slowly, finally, dying out, as the the Stone Island youth bouncey crew just aren't taking up the baton in any meaningful way, and the final corporatisation (? ) of the game is completed -

may be a bit of a leap to see any link between all this, and the energy/enthusiasm/ collective goodwill being poured into the quasi political FLA, but not sure it's a "very odd" idea


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if i support a cause i would generally go on a demonstration about because of the cause not because of the other people on the demo. i've been on loads of demos where i disliked a fair proportion of the people there - anti-war demonstrations leap unbidden to mind - but see no reason to withdraw from that political space on the basis you seem to, that some people you despise despise you too.


Try going on the current anti fascist demos in your normal gear. The gimps can't cope with it. Your accused of being a fascist, undercover or UAF.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Try going on the current anti fascist demos in your normal gear. The gimps can't cope with it. Your accused of being a fascist, undercover or UAF.


must be doing something wrong as - as posters here can testify - i wear my normal gear when i go on demonstrations and no one has ever accused me of any of those vile things.


----------



## sim667 (Oct 13, 2017)

I'm interested to see how this organisation works out, I'm reserving judgement for the moment. It sounds like Campion is trying to keep nasty views in check, but I just wonder how sustainable that is long term........ I do have an inherent distrust of football fans as a whole though. I absolutely loathe getting the train to London before and after matches and will proactively avoid doing so if I can, so I am sceptic.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2017)

editor said:


> What, all of them? And you know this, how?



He’s on about Clapton FC. You’ve laughed at them yourself.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 13, 2017)

Definitely no Clapton involved in this. 'Lads' are officially Not Approved Of there.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Is it ? myself and others have stopped going on demos because these weirdo posh people who dress up as gimps take an instant dislike to normal working class types. Unfortunately we have nothing in common, don't eat lentils, don't dress like something out of the rocky horror show, don't have tattoos and don't carry an anti animal testing bag or hunt sab whatever. They have taken the working class spaces moved into the working class houses(now Flats) but want nothing to do with the working class. A bit like the Notting Hill carnival, they want the black experience but without the black people



"lentil eating" - What a novel stereotype. Lentils are dirt cheap of course and hundreds of millions of people world wide are vegetarian or eat very little meat not through choice but because meat inherently has more resource input. But never mind detail and economics. Feel the stereotype. Speaking of which, i'd say the animal rights activists I know are probably about 60 to 70%  working class (leaving aside how murky the borders of working and middle class can be).

Not denying your experience or perception, but all I have really got from your post in terms of evidence is that you met some people (maybe quite a lot) who you felt didn't like you. There's talk on this thread of "sneering" at bald heads or certain choices of clothing, and then there's equal sneering at "eating lentils", other aspects of dress sense, having tattoos (are working class people allowed tattoos? I forget the rules)  and the true awfulness of opposing animal cruelty. No way anyone working class could ever fall into that category (except the large amounts of people who do ).

There clearly are resentments, both supposed and real on both sides of some kind of cultural divide - I don't doubt it. But I also strongly think that they are based on lack of communication and gross stereotyping (again both sides). Also, I'm not sure how left/right politics fits into this because right wing middle class types may well strike you as equally obnoxious or worse, but you might be even less likely to meet one another.

It's long been the case that "middle class leftie" as a pejorative is heavily sponsored by bourgeois reactionaries who see progressive politics as some form of class treachery. The implication is that anyone who is more than a couple of paychecks from malnutrition should be on board with conservative narratives and memes. Anyone who spends £3 on a coffee and talks openly about voting Labour can be deemed one of the worst kinds of hypocrite. Of course, any socialist who lived in a cave and ate gruel would just be ridiculed for that instead. It's pretty silly. Reactionaries always have their bases covered in terms of discourse narrative and a billionaire press to pump it out incessantly.

I'd caution against getting too sucked into such definitions, just as I'd caution people against the myriad of working class stereotypes. Working class right wingers should be open to criticism on the basis of politics, to suppose that they are being criticised for their class in such instances is often disingenuous, deliberately so and reactionary in motivation (not that I have sensed this in your case)


----------



## Silas Loom (Oct 13, 2017)

cantsin said:


> there's only one Spurs  (old)  hoolie board  / the top tier is closed anyway, so not selling out the rest for what has been in recent years the fiercest local derby is seen as a signifier by some, esp. with some  tickets available at £20
> 
> ...if you don't know the correlation between " supporter enthusiasm and hooligan enthusiasm", haven't got the energy to trawl thru it on here...it's just a ...thing....and it's a thing that's slowly, finally, dying out, as the the Stone Island youth bouncey crew just aren't taking up the baton in any meaningful way, and the final corporatisation (? ) of the game is completed -
> 
> may be a bit of a leap to see any link between all this, and the energy/enthusiasm/ collective goodwill being poured into the quasi political FLA, but not sure it's a "very odd" idea



Fair enough, don't know enough about hoolies to understand how they feel about football, and if you think of YA as "the Spurs board" then you're presumably something of an expert. But any Spurs subculture which regards West Ham as "the fiercest local derby" is out of step with the mainstream.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> "lentil eating" - What a novel stereotype. Lentils are dirt cheap of course and hundreds of millions of people world wide are vegetarian or eat very little meat not through choice but because meat inherently has more resource input. But never mind detail and economics. Feel the stereotype. Speaking of which, i'd say the animal rights activists I know are probably about 60 to 70%  working class (leaving aside how murky the borders of working and middle class can be).
> 
> Not denying your experience or perception, but all I have really got from your post in terms of evidence is that you met some people (maybe quite a lot) who you felt didn't like you. There's talk on this thread of "sneering" at bald heads or certain choices of clothing, and then there's equal sneering at "eating lentils", other aspects of dress sense, having tattoos (are working class people allowed tattoos? I forget the rules)  and the true awfulness of opposing animal cruelty. No way anyone working class could ever fall into that category (except the large amounts of people who do ).
> 
> ...



Has it not dawned on you that the FLA are opposing reactionary politics? This is a proper dilemma for people like you isn’t it?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Has it not dawned on you that the FLA are opposing reactionary politics? This is a proper dilemma for people like you isn’t it?


i wish i could share your belief in their progressive nature.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Has it not dawned on you that the FLA are opposing reactionary politics? This is a proper dilemma for people like you isn’t it?



Is that why they sing the national anthem and have militaristic associations?

If someone states opposition to one type of reactionary politics it doesnt rule out that they may be reactionary themselves.

Bin Laden, for example, opposed US imperialism (leaving aside the CIA connections) but I doubt he'd have fitted in well at a Bernie Sanders rally.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Has it not dawned on you that the FLA are opposing reactionary politics? ?



lol - go on, talk us through it ...


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> "lentil eating" - What a novel stereotype. Lentils are dirt cheap of course and hundreds of millions of people world wide are vegetarian or eat very little meat not through choice but because meat inherently has more resource input. But never mind detail and economics. Feel the stereotype. Speaking of which, i'd say the animal rights activists I know are probably about 60 to 70%  working class (leaving aside how murky the borders of working and middle class can be).
> 
> Not denying your experience or perception, but all I have really got from your post in terms of evidence is that you met some people (maybe quite a lot) who you felt didn't like you. There's talk on this thread of "sneering" at bald heads or certain choices of clothing, and then there's equal sneering at "eating lentils", other aspects of dress sense, having tattoos (are working class people allowed tattoos? I forget the rules)  and the true awfulness of opposing animal cruelty. No way anyone working class could ever fall into that category (except the large amounts of people who do ).
> 
> ...


How would you address this class based miscommunication?


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He’s on about Clapton FC. You’ve laughed at them yourself.


Not _every single person who goe_s, although their social  media stuff and their daft rules suggest it's not the kind of club I'd want to visit.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Trust me I have met more than a few on demos and at meetings. If you cant see what has happened/happening then that is your problem. The left is just not connecting with the working class. Whether you like it or not it is a fact.


And you are at liberty to speak for the working class, yes? What about working/middle class people? Do they half connect?


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## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2017)

LADS GO WHERE THEY WANT.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 13, 2017)

Silas Loom said:


> Fair enough, don't know enough about hoolies to understand how they feel about football, and if you think of YA as "the Spurs board" then you're presumably something of an expert.


 nope, just long term lurker / occasional (virtual) "lefty" punchbag - completely pointless, as with so much of my online existence



Silas Loom said:


> But any Spurs subculture which regards West Ham as "the fiercest local derby" is out of step with the mainstream.



not sure exactly what you mean, but, for a whole load of reasons, seems like Wham replaced Chelsea ( and before them AFC) as main rivals for the last decade or so -(2011 fracas referenced above being on obvious example)  -


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2017)

cantsin said:


> lol - go on, talk us through it ...



There’s obviously the political space for a progressive anti-Islamist narrative. But in the absence of there being one, it’s wide open for the right to be the voice of reason. More so if everyone is just waiting to dismiss them all as racist then business as usual.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> How would you address this class based miscommunication?



For my own part, a bit of patience and "take as you find".

One of the pleasures of getting older for me is finding out that initial negative instincts about a new person I meet were totally misplaced (not thinking of class here, anything) They said far more about me and my own insecurities than about them.

Beyond me, obviously I could hope for and encourage other people to jump to conclusions less, but also to challenge the hasty conclusions. This is no large scale plan, I don't have one of them. I sense class divisions have got worse economically, socially and culturally under the last couple of generations of capitalism. Socialist politics might offer an obvious mitigation of that trend despite the amount of people lined up to tell us that "the left" think this and that about the working class, despite the working class being more likely to vote left and left politics materially being more in their favour.


----------



## krink (Oct 13, 2017)

I had a little look through the boards of teams I have an interest in and it was not what I expected (because of my current  negative thoughts about everything probably). The overwhelming majority of people who had an opinion of fla were very much against it and viewed their fellow supporters on the March as wankers not worth a piss. I think I'm too cynical and I'm a bit ashamed to say I was expecting it to be fairly supportive of the fla. I don't get out much so my view is probably skewed by too much twitter and that. Anyway, for me this whole FLA stuff is a waste of my energy and time so I am going to concentrate on proper stuff  like trying to not go under instead.


----------



## phala (Oct 13, 2017)

never seen such replies in my entire life. now my life has become successful after reading such things. fortunate me.


----------



## krink (Oct 13, 2017)

phala said:


> never seen such replies in my entire life. now my life has become successful after reading such things. fortunate me.


Suck me balls


----------



## phala (Oct 13, 2017)

krink said:


> Suck me balls



nah ( friend ) that is not possible cuz im not gay like you. and you are trying in wrong place. its an politics section.

better try at any gay club. OR mess with some angry people ( near your home ) than you will get lots of big big and tight tight from everywhere.( from all sides )

and you will be satisfied to death.  do it quickly just mess with some angry people. they will feed you best.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2017)

Bye then.


----------



## phala (Oct 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Bye then.



yes im also leaving with you. cuz we want that krick should enjoy nicely with some angry people. he is really in hard need of some big big and tight tight. so empty this place for some time.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2017)

phala said:


> nah ( friend ) that is not possible cuz im not gay like you. and you are trying in wrong place. its an politics section.
> 
> better try at any gay club. OR mess with some angry people ( near your home ) than you will get lots of big big and tight tight from everywhere.( from all sides )
> 
> and you will be satisfied to death.  do it quickly just mess with some angry people. they will feed you best.


It's been great. It's not you, it's me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

phala said:


> yes im also leaving with you. cuz we want that krick should enjoy nicely with some angry people. he is really in hard need of some big big and tight tight. so empty this place for some time.


ta-ra chuck


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## Siouxsie (Oct 13, 2017)

Should have pointed phala at the 'CIS' thread...I'm sure they would have ripped him a new one and had him crying before the hour was up.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There’s obviously the political space for a progressive anti-Islamist narrative. But in the absence of there being one, it’s wide open for the right to be the voice of reason. More so if everyone is just waiting to dismiss them all as racist then business as usual.



Oddly enough I was challenging Islamist loons long before 911 etc. There happens to be a great deal of challenge of Islamism within...you know...Islam. But that's not so interesting somehow is it?

I don't know where people get this idea that liberals/left are somehow in love with terror while it's conservative governments are far closer to the Saudis. It's almost as if there's some swiftboating going on. Isamism is deliberately conflated with broader Islam by the phobes. When the left oppose Islamophobia they are then accused of being pro Islamism. It's a very clunky construct, but clunk can go a long way these days.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> How would you address this class based miscommunication?



This is a pain. A long reply to your Q seems to have vanished and I have to go out. Will try and remember to re-hash some of it.


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## ddraig (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> This is a pain. A long reply to your Q seems to have vanished and I have to go out. Will try and remember to re-hash some of it.


not this response?? The Football Lads Alliance


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Oddly enough I was challenging Islamist loons long before 911 etc. There happens to be a great deal of challenge of Islamism within...you know...Islam. But that's not so interesting somehow is it?
> 
> I don't know where people get this idea that liberals/left are somehow in love with terror while it's conservative governments are far closer to the Saudis. It's almost as if there's some swiftboating going on. Isamism is deliberately conflated with broader Islam by the phobes. When the left oppose Islamophobia they are then accused of being pro Islamism. It's a very clunky construct, but clunk can go a long way these days.


No you weren't. You were part of the 911loon stuff. If you think that you were wrong say how and why.


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 13, 2017)

ddraig said:


> not this response?? The Football Lads Alliance


Fortunately my local league club play away tomorrow. But next week I have the opportunity to buy a joint club/fla badge or not as the case maybe.
They are out already and being worn by "the lads" at my club. If the left met head on the jihadist and right terrorists we could be producing and selling more appropriate badges. The liberal left do not give a toss for the working class hence it is laid wide open for the right wing goons. Fortunately most of the time they are not organised enough to take full advantage of this vaccum.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> No you weren't. You were part of the 911loon stuff. If you think that you were wrong say how and why.



Opposing Islamism and being skeptical of the official accounts of 911 are not mutually exclusive positions in the least (I would get into minor spats with guys on street stalls using anti-US rhetoric to rope people in, I thought it duplicitous) 

I still don't know what happened in regard to 911 but I suspect both those who back and oppose the official narrative have under-estimated the role of the Saudis.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

ddraig said:


> not this response?? The Football Lads Alliance



Ah ha. Thanks. I've edited out a nonsense half sentence now.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> No you weren't. You were part of the 911loon stuff. If you think that you were wrong say how and why.



Fuck that's a good memory. Files on us all


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2017)

I just remember the spoof fash blog with the forced spelling mistakes. But hopefully he’s moved on from that episode.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

Getting back to challenge of what the left could /should/does do about and against Islamist terror.

For one thing, in straight condemnation stakes I think the left do as much of that as anyone, easy as it is to do so.

"terrorism is bad". That's that covered.

Going a bit deeper, we probably have to look at what motivates that kind of terror, especially among British muslims. To find out more, we obviously therefore need to (drumroll) talk and listen to those actual muslims. This is something I'm pretty enthusiastic about doing, not least because I have an interest in community cohesion and theology / comparative religion are sort of hobbies to me.
I dunno how many other non muslim socialists do this, but I know a fair few muslim socialists (varying degrees of devoutness)and I assume they natter about this kind of thing with socialists and others quite a bit.

From the cultural right I don't see much interest. The tendency is to just find out the latest story painting muslims in a bad light and talk about how awful it all is. (there's research showing this is the majority of stories in billionaire / establishment media, and the proportion of pro journalists in this country who are muslim is hovering just over 1%) Deliberately or otherwise, there is a conflation between Islamic violence and Islam generally, which is deeply unfair not least as that most victims of violent Islam are Muslims.

Any attempt to discuss this kind of thing, nuance, context etc. tends to be met with (surprise) stuff about "lefties calling us racist", sometimes it ventures more into "traitor" territory.

Actually being left wing or calling anyone racist aint required: A considered view of Islamic culture, history and faith or the place of violence within modern Islam don't require left wing politics at all, and plenty of liberals and capitalists can be balanced on the issue.

ISIS etc. thrive on polarisation. It's a stated goal. Therefore, to tackle their potential we need to reduce polarisation. The rhetoric of the right tends to be contrary to this, in effect they are too often doing the spadework of terror.

Finally for now, and back to a hobby horse of mine: The actual terrorists blowing up people on our streets have networks of support and governmental backing from abroad. These are known and the information suppressed. This is the kind of issue that needs chasing down. A common theme on FLA is "mainstream politicians letting us down" but I have yet to see a single one of them take up these issues:

Theresa May 'sitting on report on alleged Saudi Arabia funding of terror'


TERROR IN BRITAIN: WHAT DID THE PRIME MINISTER KNOW?

Theresa May is a mainstream politician. She is presumably letting us down in having lifted control orders on terrorists linked to the Manchester bombing and in suppressing a report in to the funding of terror on our streets.

And guess who HAS asked questions about it, an old leftie like Pilger and liberals / soft leftists such as at the indie and guardian.

Cultural conservative countering of Islamic terror is shallow. They seem less interested in the substantive issues, more interested in a general moan-fest against the islams. Has Christmas been banned yet? I like Christmas.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I just remember the spoof fash blog with the forced spelling mistakes. But hopefully he’s moved on from that episode.



I've given up drugs since then for one thing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I've given up drugs since then for one thing.



Tag line needs an update then.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Getting back to challenge of what the left could /should/does do about and against Islamist terror.
> 
> For one thing, in straight condemnation stakes I think the left do as much of that as anyone, easy as it is to do so.
> 
> ...


It's not just doing something about  Islamic terror but the conservative and Islamacist swamp that it recruits from. The response to the FLA for example raising the issue of deporting extremist preachers was met with cries of racism . The appeal court case brought by Muslim women and Southall black sisters against segregated education on gender basis hasn't received any praise from the left what so ever. If the left can't support such actions and apply it's equality perspective to those fighting conservative Islam what hope is there ?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 13, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The appeal court case brought by Muslim women and Southall black sisters against segregated education on gender basis hasn't received any praise from the left what so ever.



I tried to organise a celebratory kneesup, but every church hall I rang had already been booked by a local branch of the FLA for the same purpose.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2017)

As attractive that free wine is I can think of better places for a knees up.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 13, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I still don't know what happened in regard to 911...


How are you on Kennedy and Tupac?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 13, 2017)

Raheem never said:
			
		

> I still don't know what happened in regard to 911...


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 13, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I still don't know what happened in regard to 911...



How are you on Kennedy and Tupac?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 13, 2017)

Corrected.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I tried to organise a celebratory kneesup, but every church hall I rang had already been booked by a local branch of the FLA for the same purpose.


So fighting gender segregation not important in your eyes?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 13, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> It's not just doing something about  Islamic terror but the conservative and Islamacist swamp that it recruits from. The response to the FLA for example raising the issue of deporting extremist preachers was met with cries of racism . The appeal court case brought by Muslim women and Southall black sisters against segregated education on gender basis hasn't received any praise from the left what so ever. If the left can't support such actions and apply it's equality perspective to those fighting conservative Islam what hope is there ?



Was that case announced today (Fri?) I saw it discussed quite a bit on FB and I am sympathetic to the judgement if it's the one I'm thinking of.  The left / liberal discussion I saw was pretty nuanced and looking at it from all sides. The more conservative discussion was just more of the same "LOOK AT THE DREADFUL ISLAMS" that has been going on for fucking years, day in and day out. 

Deporting extremist preachers is shooting fish in a barrel as an issue. There are laws about it and some have been deported (although the Prime Minister happened to use a known reactionary lie in her rhetoric on the issue - the whole cat story myth)

But just as islamic violence is blurred into broad islam for reactionary effect, so are the more putrid elements of social conservatism within Islam. It's done in a way which alienates a lot of muslims who are pretty secular minded. They don't feel listened to or remotely understood, and they are not. It doesn't help that RE teaching in schools is generally a crock of shit and liberal efforts to increase understanding can be a bit cringe. 

While it's true that there is a "swamp" - I really don't think it would be enough for non muslims to say "look at the dreadful swamp" for it go away, telling muslims what they should and shouldnt do, banging on about how muslims should condemn terror and advance moderation then completely ignoring when those things happen. A lot more listening needs to go on, and few seem interested in promoting it (which also tells us something)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I tried to organise a celebratory kneesup, but every church hall I rang had already been booked by a local branch of the FLA for the same purpose.


Yeh. Women well represented in the FLA, chuck?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Women well represented in the FLA, chuck?



It's hard to say. I went along to one of their court case celebrations, but the one for the women was in another venue.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> So fighting gender segregation not important in your eyes?



Why are you making this suggestion?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> While it's true that there is a "swamp" - I really don't think it would be enough for non muslims to say "look at the dreadful swamp" for it go away, telling muslims what they should and shouldnt do, banging on about how muslims should condemn terror and advance moderation then completely ignoring when those things happen. A lot more listening needs to go on, and few seem interested in promoting it (which also tells us something)



So, in a nutshell, Muslims shouldn’t be expected to comment on ‘terror’, whilst at the same time the FLA can’t either.
Can you give us a list of who can comment on it before we proceed further?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So, in a nutshell, Muslims shouldn’t be expected to comment on ‘terror’, whilst at the same time the FLA can’t either.
> Can you give us a list of who can comment on it before we proceed further?



What an amusing contortion, cronky as all hell but amusing.


Muslims and the FLA can and do comment on terror. I never intimated they shouldn't, hope this helps. Got anything else you feel the need to make up?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 14, 2017)

editor said:


> What, all of them? And you know this, how?



all of the clapton ultras? It was every single clapton ultra who kept silent as a young scottish working class anti-fascist was grassed up to the police and recieved a criminal conviction on the back of it. It was the clapton ultras, as a group, who invited everybody down to the spotted dog to attack steve hedley, and attack anybody who stood near him. 

It was the clapton ultras, as a group, who didn't publicly apologise to the lad in question, or to the cowdenbeath flying column or distance themselves from the middle class lefty prick who went to the police in the first place.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Was that case announced today (Fri?) I saw it discussed quite a bit on FB and I am sympathetic to the judgement if it's the one I'm thinking of.  The left / liberal discussion I saw was pretty nuanced and looking at it from all sides. The more conservative discussion was just more of the same "LOOK AT THE DREADFUL ISLAMS" that has been going on for fucking years, day in and day out.
> 
> Deporting extremist preachers is shooting fish in a barrel as an issue. There are laws about it and some have been deported (although the Prime Minister happened to use a known reactionary lie in her rhetoric on the issue - the whole cat story myth)
> 
> ...


This is the BBC report on the case Islamic school sex segregation unlawful
Look how the  spokesperson for the Labour Council responds to the decision lol.

Southall Black Sisters ,Inspire and One Law For All, who also campaign against Sharia law and other parallel legal systems ,receieved a lot of pressure and opposition in campaigning against gender seperation from community leaders and no support from the left , not even any congrats when they won.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> This is the BBC report on the case Is
> lamic school sex segregation unlawful
> Look how the  spokesperson for the Labour Council responds to the decision lol.
> 
> Southall Black Sisters ,Inspire and One Law For All, who also campaign against Sharia law and other parallel legal systems ,receieved a lot of pressure and opposition in campaigning against gender seperation from community leaders and no support from the left , not even any congrats when they won.



Bit confused about this one, so when the Islams segregate children by gender in a single building that's evidence of their backward medievalism, but when genders are segregated by being in totally different schools (The preferred choice of the upper echelons) that's a modern progressive educational system? 
How is one legal and the other not?


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 14, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Fortunately my local league club play away tomorrow. But next week I have the opportunity to buy a joint club/fla badge or not as the case maybe.
> They are out already and being worn by "the lads" at my club. If the left met head on the jihadist and right terrorists we could be producing and selling more appropriate badges. The liberal left do not give a toss for the working class hence it is laid wide open for the right wing goons. Fortunately most of the time they are not organised enough to take full advantage of this vaccum.



So what ?! The merch stalls outside my club sell "Enoch Was Right" badges. Maybe they will start doing little dinky Enoch was right and FLA combined badges for you all?

BTW I stopped wearing badges when I was about 14.

(If you are 14, apologies)

P.S.  This "workerist" nonsense has been around for decades. Surprised to come on here and still find it being spouted. Embarrassing.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> all of the clapton ultras? It was every single clapton ultra who kept silent as a young scottish working class anti-fascist was grassed up to the police and recieved a criminal conviction on the back of it. It was the clapton ultras, as a group, who invited everybody down to the spotted dog to attack steve hedley, and attack anybody who stood near him.
> 
> It was the clapton ultras, as a group, who didn't publicly apologise to the lad in question, or to the cowdenbeath flying column or distance themselves from the middle class lefty prick who went to the police in the first place.


Can young Syrian working class lads pay this game?


----------



## Nice one (Oct 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Can young Syrian working class lads pay this game?



I sure they'd be pretty tasty at football, what with their clobber and everything. If only we had a noble posh lad to put in a word over here. Know anyone shane?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

They’ve got a World Cup bid. Maybe middle class Iranians fill the war torn terraces.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> I sure they'd be pretty tasty at football, what with their clobber and everything. If only we had a noble posh lad to put in a word over here. Know anyone shane?


This is hilarious. Your whole shtick is drawing class differences in scenes you circle - freedom, clapton, london anarchists - but insist that you're not part of despite playing a key role in them. Your very public leaving of them in order to fetishise a cliched stylised almost morrissey-esque idea of the w/c (one that actually destroys the idea of a glolabised w/c that you previously used to attack the same people you now try and get in with) leaves you very firmly in the w/c are simple trade unionists at best and don't like politics camp. Shameless. Up assad.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’ve got a World Cup bid. Maybe middle class Iranians fill the war torn terraces.


Syria have a got a world cup bid? You mean the team who plays in malaysia and were knocked out earlier this week? The assad-propaganda at point of death team?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Syroa have a got a world cup bid? You mean the team who plays in malaysia and were knocked out earlier this week? The assad-propaganda at point of death team?



Maybe Saudi royalty are avid followers.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe Saudi royalty are avid followers.


Why are you posting this about something you know nothing about?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Why are you posting this about something you know nothing about?



At least you now accept I know fuck all about football.


----------



## Nice one (Oct 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> This is hilarious. Your whole shtick is drawing class differences in scenes you circle - freedom, clapton, london anarchists - but insist that you're not part of despite playing a key role in them. Your very public leaving of them in order to fetishise a cliched stylised almost morrissey-esque idea of the w/c (one that actually destroys the idea of a glolabised w/c that you previously used to attack the same people you know try and get in with) leaves you very firmly in the w/c are simple trade unionists at best and don't like politics camp. Shameless. Up assad.




_how sad are we, and how sad have we been_

We got there in the end didn't we. Relying on five year old gossip, about leaving the cult, because, because... That's it? Protecting the brand? You're almost anarchy aristocracy now aren't you.

We all revert to class type in the end. But your performance on here has certainly lasted the distance.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 14, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> So what ?! The merch stalls outside my club sell "Enoch Was Right" badges. Maybe they will start doing little dinky Enoch was right and FLA combined badges for you all?
> 
> BTW I stopped wearing badges when I was about 14.
> 
> ...


I think you have completely misunderstood what I have written. Not sure if you follow football but from your comments I find it unlikely. No one is asking you to wear a badge. Other than that I find it difficult to explain to you further.


----------



## newbie (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Bit confused about this one, so when the Islams segregate children by gender in a single building that's evidence of their backward medievalism, but when genders are segregated by being in totally different schools (The preferred choice of the upper echelons) that's a modern progressive educational system?
> How is one legal and the other not?


because our rulers wrote the law to specifically exclude single sex schools from equalities legislation.

tbf there has long been a suggestion that girls thrive better in single sex schools and boys in mixed schools.  Though it's noticeable that our rulers are mostly men who went to single sex schools. I'll leave it to educationalists to work out the answer to that one.

Nationalising all so-called 'faith' and 'public' schools will do for me, as a start.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

newbie said:


> because our rulers wrote the law to specifically exclude single sex schools from equalities legislation.
> 
> tbf there has long been a suggestion that girls thrive better in single sex schools and boys in mixed schools.  Though it's noticeable that our rulers are mostly men who went to single sex schools. I'll leave it to educationalists to work out the answer to that one.
> 
> Nationalising all so-called 'faith' and 'public' schools will do for me, as a start.



It's just a good example of how much anti Muslim prejudice trumps any kind of logic.
The BBC piece was probably commissioned by someone who went to a minor public school.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Bit confused about this one, so when the Islams segregate children by gender in a single building that's evidence of their backward medievalism, but when genders are segregated by being in totally different schools (The preferred choice of the upper echelons) that's a modern progressive educational system?
> How is one legal and the other not?



Whatever we think of segregating genders to different buildings, I think habitually segregating them within the same building is clearly a different level. I have no idea what the supposed theological argument is. There are workplaces and educational establishments up and down the country where muslim males and females are not segregated and don't ask to be. Does that make them bad muslims? Without having looked much into detail, I support the judgement. Like Redsky, I'd expect a bit more support from the left, though some may come. We'll see.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> It's just a good example of how much anti Muslim prejudice trumps any kind of logic.
> The BBC piece was probably commissioned by someone who went to a minor public school.



Yep, although I'm inclined to support the judgement, even the kind of basic argument I made in the above post doesn't seem to get a look in. The coverage just seems to have the boiler-plate "awful islams" vibe. It must be horrible to be a muslim in this country at times.


----------



## newbie (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> It's just a good example of how much anti Muslim prejudice trumps any kind of logic.
> The BBC piece was probably commissioned by someone who went to a minor public school.


Is prejudice the right word? I don't know.  Christian and Jewish schools have, apparently, operated like that for years, though very few people have shouted _something must be done_ about them.  There has been shouting about this school.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Is Muslim the right word? I’m fairly sure not all Muslims deem free mixing haram.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Yep, although I'm inclined to support the judgement, even the kind of basic argument I made in the above post doesn't seem to get a look in. The coverage just seems to have the boiler-plate "awful islams" vibe. It must be horrible to be a muslim in this country at times.



Personally I'd like to see an end to faith and private schooling, academies and all that. But the hypocrisy of this judgement is staggering.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Personally I'd like to see an end to faith and private schooling, academies and all that. But the hypocrisy of this judgement is staggering.



Do you see the difference between girls and boys attending different institutions and being segregated within the same institution? I think it's quite significant.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Do you see the difference between girls and boys attending different institutions and being segregated within the same institution? I think it's quite significant.



As in the day to day reminder of gender inequality ?  I suppose so.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2017)

A guardian editorial in support of the judgement. 

Not everone's definition of "left" but some would say it counts. The idea that "the left" aren't supportive starts to look shakey.

The Guardian view on school segregation: the origins of inequality | Editorial


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Bit confused about this one, so when the Islams segregate children by gender in a single building that's evidence of their backward medievalism, but when genders are segregated by being in totally different schools (The preferred choice of the upper echelons) that's a modern progressive educational system?
> How is one legal and the other not?


It's evidence of gender separation and it applies to schools of whatever faith. There was a letter in SW a couple of years ago which parroted the same sentiments claiming it was Islamophobic to raise the issue of gender segregation when there were all girls and all boys schools .


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A guardian editorial in support of the judgement.
> 
> Not everone's definition of "left" but some would say it counts. The idea that "the left" aren't supportive starts to look shakey.
> 
> The Guardian view on school segregation: the origins of inequality | Editorial


Stable door safely bolted situation .


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> all of the clapton ultras?


Did I say that? Nope.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Liberal Democrats ?



Try harder.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

May I just state here that I'm not aware of any working class folk outside their teens who would refer to themselves as "lads".

Chaps maybe, or blokes, but lads?  Come on!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

cantsin said:


> with baited breath



Maggots or worms (it's "bated")?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> okay not going to get into semantics, if you want to change 'assembled mass' to 'those present' i'm happy.
> 
> You insist they should represent something... that seems to be your start point. If we can define what they represent we can unify against them, and being the wrong working class happily won't come into it. They represent bad things and bad things should be opposed.
> 
> ...



TBF, "gaze" has been used in anti-racist and classist conversation for decades.  It's just a good shorthand.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

cantsin said:


> yep, the prevailing air at Labour Party HQ ( and amongst the 600k members ) at the moment, is deffo likely to be "terror" as they "stare into the  abyss" that is the FLA.
> 
> They're trying to hide it, as they get on with supporting CWU members who are hopefully about to properly challenge Tory anti union laws for the first time in a decade, or the RMT members about to strike on the Trains, and down here, Stagecoach.
> 
> But deep down, the real focus is deffo the FLA



Yep.  The FLA is definitely more of a threat than the EDL, the BNP, the BM, Combat 18, the NF, UKIP and ISIS put together! They're awesome and massive in their threat!  I'm surprised they haven't taken over the country already!


----------



## Nice one (Oct 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> May I just state here that I'm not aware of any working class folk outside their teens who would refer to themselves as "lads".
> 
> Chaps maybe, or blokes, but lads?  Come on!


Football Chaps Alliance. Its got legs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

ddraig said:


> vice video
> "we're the backbone of this country"




Interesting.

I say "interesting" 'cos I recognised someone in the video, about a minute in.  He was a Chelsea Headhunter, a skin back in the '80s, and a nasty racist fuck.  He's not "working class", though.  His dad was a Tory councillor for nearly 30 years, and a Tory Prospective Parliamentary Candidate several times, and he himself (like his dad) is a chartered accountant.  Vince appears to still be leading a double life.

How do I know him?  The usual way one got to know racist skins back then - asking the anti-racist skins, and then keeping tabs on the fuckers (files are not just for Ern!).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> Football Chaps Alliance. Its got legs.



20,000-40,000 legs, apparently!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Poi E said:


> Hard to get to the dogs these days.



They closed down Catford, they closed down Wimbledon, they closed down Peckham.  Where's a working class south Londoner supposed to go for entertainment, eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> True. But of course by that stage (if they do represent a symptom of a wider working class disquiet) it will already be too late to do anything about it.



Surely, if that's the case, it's already too late, as they've already started mobilising?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surely, if that's the case, it's already too late, as they've already started mobilising?


Didn't help the Russians in 1914, mobilising first


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You can go to clapham/clacton with nice one. In your clobber.



But can you act the geezer while wearing your clobber, while promenading with nice one?  It's no fun if you can't act the geezer!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Didn't help the Russians in 1914, mobilising first



True, but to be fair, mobilising when about 20% of your frontline infantry didn't have modern service rifles (i.e. Moisin-Nagant magazined rilfes rather than the Berdan single-shotters some where mobilised with) was a bit daft.  It's no good having all that modern French financed rail infrastructure, if your troops still have to reload after each shot, even if the rifle is a breech loader, rather than a muzzle loader!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> May I just state here that I'm not aware of any working class folk outside their teens who would refer to themselves as "lads".
> 
> Chaps maybe, or blokes, but lads?  Come on!



Haway the chaps.
Haway the blokes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> must be doing something wrong as - as posters here can testify - i wear my normal gear when i go on demonstrations and no one has ever accused me of any of those vile things.



I don't know which of the three is more insulting: being accused of being a fascist; a copper or UAF.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Haway the chaps.



It has a certain ring to it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Has it not dawned on you that the FLA are opposing reactionary politics? This is a proper dilemma for people like you isn’t it?



The problem for people like him is that while they're opposing reactionary politics, they're not shifting leftward, or espousing left politics, and that scares some people.
But why would they want to direct their people leftward?  Most "left" politics of any substance and/or size within the UK's form of democracy are almost as reactionary and blinkered as the right are.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 14, 2017)

ive only watched the vice video rather than read the whole thread - but it looks very much like an EDL reboot to me. similar demographic (white, male,middle aged), the same aggressiveness and same target. When the EDL started there was a lot of stuff about it being "anti-racist" and a lot of their original support were not fash - and wrong footed anti-fascists in how best to respond to them.
This looks like the people putting this together are trying to make it what the EDL was supposed to be about originally - but the dog whistles are there, the far right are in there and the conversation goes very very quickly from "doing something about islamic terror" to muslims being targeted as a whole. 
The chants of "we want out country back" "out! out! out! and the aggro that reporter gets all point to this going the same way.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Ah me ladsblokes, ye shudda seen us gannin',
We pass'd the foaks alang the road just as they wor stannin';
Thor wis lots o' ladschaps an' lassies there, aal wi' smiling faces,
Gannin' alang the Scotswood Road, to see the Blaydon Races.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> It's evidence of gender separation and it applies to schools of whatever faith. There was a letter in SW a couple of years ago which parroted the same sentiments claiming it was Islamophobic to raise the issue of gender segregation when there were all girls and all boys schools .



How did they parrot it before I said it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Poi E said:


> Fuck that's a good memory. Files on us all



Files are for life, not just for Christmas.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ah me ladsblokes, ye shudda seen us gannin',
> We pass'd the foaks alang the road just as they wor stannin';
> Thor wis lots o' ladschaps an' lassies there, aal wi' smiling faces,
> Gannin' alang the Scotswood Road, to see the Blaydon Races.



Could you please translate that from Middle English to modern English?  Thanks awfully, old lad!


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> May I just state here that I'm not aware of any working class folk outside their teens who would refer to themselves as "lads".
> 
> Chaps maybe, or blokes, but lads?  Come on!



The Football Dads Alliance


----------



## Nice one (Oct 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> But can you act the geezer while wearing your clobber, while promenading with nice one?  It's no fun if you can't act the geezer!









violent 'norvell' panda and pickmands model. Chaps. Arsenal away. Larve it!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> violent 'norvell' panda and pickmands model. Chaps. Arsenal away. Larve it!



I've never knowingly attended an Arsenal match, let alone an Arsenal away match.  I'm a Hammers fan, and have been for about 40 years.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 14, 2017)

The Racist Dads Alliance.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Brixton Hatter said:


> The Racist Dads Alliance.



What evidence is there that they’re racist? Sure the far right are trying to get their clutches on it but are being told to piss off if accounts are to be believed. 
I oppose Islamists. They’re fascist cunts and the ones who’ve inspired these marches have done so by their cowardly attacks on people going about their daily business, enjoying themselves on nights out, and children at pop concerts. 
I’m white. Am I also a racist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> What evidence is there that they’re racist? Sure the far right are trying to get their clutches on it but are being told to piss off if accounts are to be believed.
> I oppose Islamists. They’re fascist cunts and the ones who’ve inspired these marches have done so by their cowardly attacks on people going about their daily business, enjoying themselves on nights out, and children at pop concerts.
> I’m white. Am I also a racist?


Whose accounts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've never knowingly attended an Arsenal match, let alone an Arsenal away match.  I'm a Hammers fan, and have been for about 40 years.


Never mind, you might still recover


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. i'm by no means persuaded that these are entirely previously non-politically engaged working class people. could you elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?


Pics of laurel and Hardy don't answer this Nice one


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 117699
> More football thugs jailed over Spurs clash with West Ham
> 
> not sure who you think yer man has credibility with Nice one outside hoolie circles.
> ...


And Nice one could you outline who you think nice middle class Meighan has credibility with?


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 14, 2017)

"Not racist, just anti-anti-racists."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 14, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> "Not racist, just anti-anti-racists."




Some of them acted like cunts, others looked fucking embarrassed about the ones acting like cunts, so not quite comparable to the BNP like some earlier posters have implied or stated.

Like most grassroots organisations, we'll have to wait and see which way they jump.  If they jump right, then it's worth jumping *on* them, and maybe dancing a fandango, too.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Whose accounts?



I wonder if there was any racists on the anti-war march. Or whether a million people can’t possibly contain racists because it was an objection to brown people being bombed.
I also assume that there weren’t any racists on the student marches. Because racists don’t oppose having to pay tuition fees, perhaps?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder if there was any racists on the anti-war march. Or whether a million people can’t possibly contain racists because it was an objection to brown people being bombed.
> I also assume that there weren’t any racists on the student marches. Because racists don’t oppose having to pay tuition fees, perhaps?


Yeh. So these accounts you referred to above purely imaginary it seems


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. So these accounts you referred to above purely imaginary it seems



They’re all racists, Pickmans. All of them. In the mean time what’s your position on Islamists?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re all racists, Pickmans. All of them. In the mean time what’s your position on Islamists?


Before we move onto that I'd be grateful if you could just confirm what accounts you were referring to in your #979.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Before we move onto that I'd be grateful if you could just confirm what accounts you were referring to in your #979.



Stuff that I’ve read and I’m sure you have too that I cannot be arsed Googling on a Saturday night. 
So we’ll just agree they’re all racists. It’s easier.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder if there was any racists on the anti-war march. Or whether a million people can’t possibly contain racists because it was an objection to brown people being bombed.
> I also assume that there weren’t any racists on the student marches. Because racists don’t oppose having to pay tuition fees, perhaps?


There would have been plenty of Islamacists and Baathists railing against impetislusm providing it's of the western variety.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> There would have been plenty of Islamacists and Baathists railing against impetislusm providing it's of the western variety.



Exactly! But not racist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Stuff that I’ve read and I’m sure you have too that I cannot be arsed Googling on a Saturday night.
> So we’ll just agree they’re all racists. It’s easier.


I'm not so sure they are all racists, but let's move forward with that as your description of the fla


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wonder if there was any racists on the anti-war march. Or whether a million people can’t possibly contain racists because it was an objection to brown people being bombed.
> I also assume that there weren’t any racists on the student marches. Because racists don’t oppose having to pay tuition fees, perhaps?


Being as the BNP was anti-war in 2003 I think it's safe to say one or two members or supporters shuffled through central London that day


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not so sure they are all racists, but let's move forward with that as your description of the fla



That’s disingenuous, Pickmans. I acknowledged that the right are obviously making inroads into it but also asked that as I agreed with their stance against Islamists does that make me racist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That’s disingenuous, Pickmans. I acknowledged that the right are obviously making inroads into it but also asked that as I agreed with their stance against Islamists does that make me racist?


Not in posts we've exchanged


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Being as the BNP was anti-war in 2003 I think it's safe to say one or two members or supporters shuffled through central London that day



Who are these lefties who've condemned the entire  FLA as racists? There's London Black Revs but that's a one man band these days.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Not in posts we've exchanged



They’re in this very thread.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Who are these lefties who've condemned the entire  FLA as racists? There's London Black Revs but that's a one man band these days.



Two, I believe.
But it’s also how many are ‘awaiting judgement’ and their expectations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That’s disingenuous, Pickmans. I acknowledged that the right are obviously making inroads into it but also asked that as I agreed with their stance against Islamists does that make me racist?


Oh, you mean post 979. You didn't ask that tho.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh, you mean post 979. You didn't ask that tho.



X-Factor boring tonight?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> X-Factor boring tonight?


"I'm white. Does that make me racist?"


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> "I'm white. Does that make me racist?"



That wasn’t a characterisation given along with fashion tastes, age, and body mass (most of which describe me) that somehow proved something in a post by PaulOK?

I wasn’t actually replying to anything you’ve said so no idea why you’re sticking your beak in.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Two, I believe.
> But it’s also how many are ‘awaiting judgement’ and their expectations.



"Wait and see" isn't exactly the same as "They're all racists" is it?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 14, 2017)

Corrected...


taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Deliberately or otherwise, there is a conflation between Islamic violence and Islam generally, which is deeply unfair not least as that most victims of violent Islam are Muslims.



I am fully aware this is a generic liberal argument, (and what flank you think you are protecting) but as you raised it, can you explain why by drawing attention to the propensity of some Muslims to butcher fellow Muslims in the name of Allah, the far-right staple that 'Islam is the real problem' is debunked?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That wasn’t a characterisation given along with fashion tastes, age, and body mass (most of which describe me) that somehow proved something in a post by PaulOK?
> 
> I wasn’t actually replying to anything you’ve said so no idea why you’re sticking your beak in.


I asked you about these accounts and you've just unravelled from there


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> "Wait and see" isn't exactly the same as "They're all racists" is it?



I didn’t say everyone had this view, did I? So no need to panic that I’ve collected you in a drag net. However, there’s many who have already decided, including some that are pretending they haven’t.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I asked you about these accounts and you've just unravelled from there



They’re out there if you can be bothered looking. It doesn’t form a big enough portion of my argument to be arsed doing it for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re out there if you can be bothered looking. It doesn’t form a big enough portion of my argument to be arsed doing it for you.


It does form a fairly big part of your argument chuck


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> It does form a fairly big part of your argument chuck



Which part? 
As far as I know the organisers of the FLA are distancing themselves from twats like Tommy Robinson. I’ve read it in several places as have you. If you haven’t it’s easy to google.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Which part?
> As far as I know the organisers of the FLA are distancing themselves from twats like Tommy Robinson. I’ve read it in several places as have you. If you haven’t it’s easy to google.


Yeh. The part that supports what you've just said. But when you rely on evidence it's incumbent on you to share it, otherwise it's just millions of PMs of support


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. The part that supports what you've just said. But when you rely on evidence it's incumbent on you to share it, otherwise it's just millions of PMs of support



I never claim that I get PMs of support. The FLA organisers distancing themselves from Robinson has been discussed on this thread that you’re reading. I’m not being your google dog man. Challenge my views not this bullshit where you want me to fucking labour for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I never claim that I get PMs of support. The FLA organisers distancing themselves from Robinson has been discussed on this thread that you’re reading. I’m not being your google dog man. Challenge my views not this bullshit where you want me to fucking labour for you.


has Robinson tried to take control of the fla?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> has Robinson tried to take control of the fla?



‘Taking control’ is probably the wrong question. ‘Taking advantage of’ like he’s been doing in Sunderland more accurate. And yes, it does matter whether he’s being accepted or not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I never claim that I get PMs of support. The FLA organisers distancing themselves from Robinson has been discussed on this thread that you’re reading. I’m not being your google dog man. Challenge my views not this bullshit where you want me to fucking labour for you.


So don't link to these accounts, just say whose accounts they are.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> So don't link to these accounts, just say whose accounts they are.



They’re the accounts of the organisers iirc. Send me to jail if I’m wrong though?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They’re the accounts of the organisers iirc. Send me to jail if I’m wrong though?


ok


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> ‘Taking control’ is probably the wrong question. ‘Taking advantage of’ like he’s been doing in Sunderland more accurate. And yes, it does matter whether he’s being accepted or not.



He's trying to weasel his way in there  I think but my guess with him is that he doesn't want to front another EDL. He's doing better as a pundit.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> He's trying to weasel his way in there  I think but my guess with him is that he doesn't want to front another EDL. He's doing better as a pundit.



Well as a ‘journalist’ he’s free to go to and report upon whatever he wants. 
The point I’m making is that unlike the Campaign in Sunderland he’s latched onto which led to a local shop hosting a book signing event he appears to be less welcome on these FLA events. Of course that could mean anything but them publicly distancing themselves has to mean something.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Plus the organiser has a history of football violence, but not of BNP membership, unlike Robinson.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well as a ‘journalist’ he’s free to go to and report upon whatever he wants.
> The point I’m making is that unlike the Campaign in Sunderland he’s latched onto which led to a local shop hosting a book signing event he appears to be less welcome on these FLA events. Of course that could mean anything but them publicly distancing themselves has to mean something.



I think it means that they don't want him to take over their movement. 
For my tenpence worth the FLA is not a far right or racist movement, it has the potential to become one or split and reinforce the existing far right.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 14, 2017)

Unwittingly or not - the FLA is both tapping into, and reinforcing, racism and islamophobia.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> I think it means that they don't want him to take over their movement.
> For my tenpence worth the FLA is not a far right or racist movement, it has the potential to become one or split and reinforce the existing far right.



Ok, I don’t disagree with this.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Unwittingly or not - the FLA is both tapping into, and reinforcing, racism and islamophobia.



This view annoys me. 
More than the EDL annoy me.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 14, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This view annoys me.
> More than the EDL annoy me.



yeah - well thousands of angry men marching down the road chanting "we want out country back" "your not birtish any more" etc etc fucking annoys me. And will act as both a green light and recruitment beacon for every nationalist/racist fuck wit across the country.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 14, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - well thousands of angry men marching down the road chanting "we want out country back" "your not birtish any more" etc etc fucking annoys me. And will act as both a green light and recruitment beacon for every nationalist/racist fuck wit across the country.



And those, perhaps like yourself, who respond to people’s anger about being attacked by Islamists by labelling it ‘racist’ are driving it.
The fact they’re identifying themselves in national rather than class terms is our failure.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2017)

Do you think this movement is just about a fear of being attacked by ISlamists ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Do you think this movement is just about a fear of being attacked by ISlamists ?



Is this directed at me? It formed this year following a series of attacks which I would say is instructive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is this directed at me? It formed this year following a series of attacks which I would say is instructive.


What do you find instructive about it?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2017)

nothing else, just fear of islamist attcks ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> What do you find instructive about it?



That people might object to being bombed?
I always took you as a smart cookie and not terminally down the rabbit hole.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> nothing else, just fear of islamist attcks ?



It could be other stuff but what’s so bizarre about reacting to several attacks?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 15, 2017)

Are they organising a petition to send to IS?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

The left are shit when it comes to this. Even the ones who’ve spent years pointing out the anti-racist connections the likes of the SWP made with dubious characters on an anti-imperialist ticket will dismiss any working class protest they cannot recognise as being in their own interests as racist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> That people might object to being bombed?
> I always took you as a smart cookie and not terminally down the rabbit hole.


Yeh. It took the fla to teach you that lesson?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. It took the fla to teach you that lesson?



No you dick I already have that position. But you clearly don’t hence all this bullshit contortions around it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The left are shit when it comes to this. Even the ones who’ve spent years pointing out the anti-racist connections the likes of the SWP made with dubious characters on an anti-imperialist ticket will dismiss any working class protest they cannot recognise as being in their own interests as racist.


You've been quite willing to label everyone on this demo as racist


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> No you dick I already have that position. But you clearly don’t hence all this bullshit contortions around it.


I've not made any contortions. You by contrast are all over the shop. It's instructive but then it isn't. They're all racists - but then they're not. Could you take a position and try sticking to it for more than five minutes?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> You've been quite willing to label everyone on this demo as racist



No I haven’t. And I’ve got limited interested in discussing class politics with someone like yourself. If you think you’re part of the class I’ll introduce you to some people and we’ll get feedback.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I've not made any contortions. You by contrast are all over the shop. It's instructive but then it isn't. They're all racists - but then they're not. Could you take a position and try sticking to it for more than five minutes?



Fuck off posh boy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Stuff that I’ve read and I’m sure you have too that I cannot be arsed Googling on a Saturday night.
> So we’ll just agree they’re all racists. It’s easier.


What's this then if it's not you being quite happy to label everyone on the demo as racist?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fuck off posh boy.


That's a grand answer to all arguments, isn't it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> That's a grand answer to all arguments, isn't it.



You’re digging me out because you don’t like me being in any way supportive of something you don’t like. So your background as contrasted to mine is absolutely relevant here.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And those, perhaps like yourself, who respond to people’s anger about being attacked by Islamists by labelling it ‘racist’ are driving it.
> The fact they’re identifying themselves in national rather than class terms is our failure.



the anger isn't racist. A lot of people were angry - including a lot of british muslims. 
But using that anger to target an enitre community is racist. The best way to counter Islamic extremism is to do it along side muslims - its also a really good way of sending a signal that you are not motivated by racism. 

How do you think someone from a muslim community would have felt about that demo? 

I dont think the person who set this up is fash and not everyone on that demo is fash or racist- but they're responding to terror attacks with machismo and aggression (they are football firms after all) - so collaborative, considered or progressive responses go out the window in favour of black and white, them and us, simplistic, self affirming tribalism. And that is exactly the well from which fascism/ultra nationalism  draws its bucket. 

And they are identifying themselves in class terms - but they've married that to the nationalism - hardly new (fuck knows how its my fault or anybody elses). 
And they dont own working class identity any more than they should get to define who's "British".


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

The demo didn’t target a community though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’re digging me out because you don’t like me being in any way supportive of something you don’t like. So your background as contrasted to mine is absolutely relevant here.


It's not that at all. I don't particularly like the fla, it's true, because I don't believe it has any progressive potential. I suspect it's likely to go the way the EDL did. I may be wrong, of course, and it may be a positive development. Time will tell.

I haven't been having a pop at you for your support of the fla. I've asked you a few things from your posts, and I'm sorry if it came across as nasty or condescending. If you think the fla's the right thing for you to support atm I wish you luck and would be interested to hear about your experiences with the group. Hopefully I'll catch up with you in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The demo didn’t target a community though.



Superficially it didn't. But in reality it acts - intentionally or not - as a shrieking dog whistle.   Like i say - how do you think someone from a Muslim community would have felt when that lot came round the corner?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 15, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Superficially it didn't. But in reality it acts - intentionally or not - as a shrieking dog whistle.   Like i say - how do you think someone from a Muslim community would have felt when that lot came round the corner?



Are the FLA not mainly Muslim? Have I been reading this thread with a false picture in my head?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Are the FLA not mainly Muslim? Have I been reading this thread with a false picture in my head?


Yes


----------



## Raheem (Oct 15, 2017)

It's surely just a matter of time though? They're completely not racist and their main area of concern is of particular relevance to Muslims, so it will be like a honeypot, we can safely assume.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not that at all. I don't particularly like the fla, it's true, because I don't believe it has any progressive potential. I suspect it's likely to go the way the EDL did. I may be wrong, of course, and it may be a positive development. Time will tell.
> 
> I haven't been having a pop at you for your support of the fla. I've asked you a few things from your posts, and I'm sorry if it came across as nasty or condescending. If you think the fla's the right thing for you to support atm I wish you luck and would be interested to hear about your experiences with the group. Hopefully I'll catch up with you in a couple of weeks.



Now I feel bad! I don’t support the FLA, just the sneering towards them from the get go gets on my nerves and I agree with opposition to Islamists and their attacks. 
So anything beyond that.. what? Guess work? A lot of it is coming from class prejudice and you know that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Now I feel bad! I don’t support the FLA, just the sneering towards them from the get go gets on my nerves and I agree with opposition to Islamists and their attacks.
> So anything beyond that.. what? Guess work? A lot of it is coming from class prejudice and you know that.


I understand that. I've seen nasty things said about them elsewhere from people on the left on the basis of class. I've not said, nor do I feel, that myself, it's not where I'm coming from. I feel if they were a genuinely anti-extremist body they would have taken the opportunity to condemn the Finsbury Park attack as much as the London Bridge or Westminster ones, but I understand they were silent on it. I don't feel this bodes well and suggests to me that like the EDL Muslims in general will become targets of the group. This isn't because they're thick or working class or follow different football teams from me, but because I believe the path they're on leads in that direction. We'll see where they go over the next few months.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I understand that. I've seen nasty things said about them elsewhere from people on the left on the basis of class. I've not said, nor do I feel, that myself, it's not where I'm coming from. I feel a genuinely anti-extremist body would have taken the opportunity to condemn the Finsbury Park attack as much as the London Bridge or Westminster ones, but I understand they were silent on it. I don't feel this bodes well and suggests to me that like the EDL Muslims in general will become targets of the group. This isn't because they're thick or working class or follow different football teams from me, but because I believe the path they're on leads in that direction. We'll see where they go over the next few months.



The opposite happens also. In more annoying ways actually.
But if people are taking to the streets in opposition to being attacked you can’t just expect them to have a fully rounded political understanding to your liking. That isn’t how it works.
With politics you have to win people over to your arguments / way of thinking. They’re not born that way.
So dismissing a group or people (group? 10,000!) as racist is a cop out, and counter productive, frankly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The opposite happens also. In more annoying ways actually.
> But if people are taking to the streets in opposition to being attacked you can’t just expect them to have a fully rounded political understanding to your liking. That isn’t how it works.
> With politics you have to win people over to your arguments / way of thinking. They’re not born that way.
> So dismissing a group or people (group? 10,000!) as racist is a cop out, and counter productive, frankly.


Yeh. I've said I don't think they're a racist group atm but I believe that's where they're headed. I agree, people don't emerge fully formed politically and I appreciate that I will encounter people who may be in many ways on the right wavelength or open to persuasion but who have what some may find offensive views and need them challenged (in a comradely way). An effort should be made, as you suggest, as the best way to destroy a potential enemy - and sections of the left are doing their damndest on this to make them real enemies - is to make them a friend.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 15, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Bit confused about this one, so when the Islams segregate children by gender in a single building that's evidence of their backward medievalism, but when genders are segregated by being in totally different schools (The preferred choice of the upper echelons) that's a modern progressive educational system?
> How is one legal and the other not?


How many single sex schools are state schools?


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 15, 2017)

The FLA have just announced  their next demo are being "sometime in early 2018"

So we have a supposed "organization " with a 4 or 5 month gap between their main and only real activity.

It is hard to intervene and stay relevant if that is the case and to sustain  any kind of momentum.

In the meantime the founders will be hawking merchandise  and making money which I suspect is the main aim of this thing.

A big feature of the modern far right is the primacy of fund raising and the acquisition  of money to fund lifestyles (it was/is certainly the case with people like Griffin, Golding,Lennon and Waters). It's  a big feature of American politics  which is now entrenched here. Politics and ideology  are basically a means to that end. At least with the old style fascists you felt they were in it because they actually  believed in it and money was secondary.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 15, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> I think you have completely misunderstood what I have written. Not sure if you follow football but from your comments I find it unlikely. No one is asking you to wear a badge. Other than that I find it difficult to explain to you further.


No, I don't  follow football. I am a newbie really. I have only been going home and away since 1981.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The demo didn’t target a community though.



That's one crucial distinction with the EDL.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> How many single sex schools are state schools?



Around 400 according to Wikipedia. Down from 2,500 forty years ago. So quite a substantial number of kids.


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> How many single sex schools are state schools?


there's loads.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 15, 2017)

Might head along to one to get the vibe. What "clobber" should I wear so I don't look too foreign? Will they have marching bands?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 15, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> No, I don't  follow football. I am a newbie really. I have only been going home and away since 1981.


I thought so ...prawn sandwich brigade


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> The FLA have just announced  their next demo are being "sometime in early 2018"
> 
> So we have a supposed "organization " with a 4 or 5 month gap between their main and only real activity.
> 
> ...


Yesterday I opened Richard Evans' book about the nazis in power at random and read how goebbels' declared income went from 619 marks per year before the seizure of power to 300,000+. And as evans points out goebbels by no means singular. Yeh, they were never venal till Griffin came along


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 15, 2017)

Poi E said:


> Might head along to one to get the vibe. What "clobber" should I wear so I don't look too foreign? Will they have marching bands?



shaved head. beer belly. shit leisure-wear. macho posing.  That's what "real" working class people look like - apparently.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Now I feel bad! I don’t support the FLA, just the sneering towards them from the get go gets on my nerves and I agree with opposition to Islamists and their attacks.
> So anything beyond that.. what? Guess work? A lot of it is coming from class prejudice and you know that.



thing is, if feels like a lot of the 'sneering liberal' stuff is in your / others heads - just haven't seen much of it about


----------



## Poi E (Oct 15, 2017)

Any skins on the demos?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 15, 2017)

football, stella and taken back our country shite

i'd say so


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yesterday I opened Richard Evans' book about the nazis in power at random and read how goebbels' declared income went from 619 marks per year before the seizure of power to 300,000+. And as evans points out goebbels by no means singular. Yeh, they were never venal till Griffin came along



adolf was quite frugal though wasn't he? All consuming rage and meglomania didn't leave much room for materialism.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 15, 2017)

Anti-Fascism, Jihadism and The FLA


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - well thousands of angry men marching down the road chanting "we want out country back" "your not birtish any more" etc etc fucking annoys me. And will act as both a green light and recruitment beacon for every nationalist/racist fuck wit across the country.



And for MI5. Don't forget MI5.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> yeah - well thousands of angry men marching down the road chanting "we want out country back" "your not birtish any more" etc etc fucking annoys me. And will act as both a green light and recruitment beacon for every nationalist/racist fuck wit across the country.



TBF, what annoyed was a bunch of people roughly my own age chanting "who the fucking hell are you" like they were ready for a mass ruck, when most of them were so lardy they'd have problem swinging a limb to pick up a pint, let alone throw a punch.  Old fellas reliving their past glories.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And those, perhaps like yourself, who respond to people’s anger about being attacked by Islamists by labelling it ‘racist’ are driving it.



In my humble opinion, the biggest issue we have is that our political masters and their media rim-jobbers simplify a complex argument down to "Islamism = Islam" without ever coming out and saying that, when - even as lowly infantrymen in the class war  - we know that the situation is more complex, and that you can't analyse the issue properly without taking into account factors such as class, racism and the intense use of politico-religious propaganda targeted at certain groups of worshippers within Islam - an age-old tactic to split off the discontented and/or fanatically-pious that has been used by most organised religions at one time or another.  Nail this down, and you have a chance of suppressing or neutralising the problem and/or addressing it through positive class politics, but only a chance.



> The fact they’re identifying themselves in national rather than class terms is our failure.



It's the failure of every _soi-disant_ left party for the last 50 years, from Labour to Workers Power, and a failure of those of us at the grass roots to be able to seriously engage about issues such as immigration.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> shaved head. beer belly. shit leisure-wear. macho posing.  That's what "real" working class people look like - apparently.



Not in my household.  Big fat belly - check.  The rest, not a fucking chance!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2017)

Just to go back to the gender segregated school situation ow on earth can a Labour authority work with a school that has the following in its library?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 15, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not in my household.  Big fat belly - check.  The rest, not a fucking chance!



ive got the shaved head _and_ the beer belly - so quail before my prole-power.


----------



## Silas Loom (Oct 15, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Just to go back to the gender segregated school situation ow on earth can a Labour authority work with a school that has the following in its library?
> 
> 
> View attachment 117879



Or, to be fair, any authority. This isn't really a discussion about gender segregation, is it?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2017)

Silas Loom said:


> Or, to be fair, any authority. This isn't really a discussion about gender segregation, is it?


what isnt ?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 15, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> so quail before my prole-power.



No way. I'm drawing the line at prawn sandwiches.


----------



## Silas Loom (Oct 15, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> what isnt ?



Only that the discussion about gender segregation in mainstream education and gender segregation in Islamic schools seemed a little disingenuous; the concerns and issues are different. Or, at least, Islamic education (and possibly other faith schools in more esoteric traditions) in some case introduces an additional and unrelated set of problems to the basic conundrum that single sex education seems to be good for girls and bad for boys. I only mention it because of the comparisons made upthread.


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yesterday I opened Richard Evans' book about the nazis in power at random and read how goebbels' declared income went from 619 marks per year before the seizure of power to 300,000+. And as evans points out goebbels by no means singular. Yeh, they were never venal till Griffin came along


"opened at random" to find that exact reference.

You should rush out and buy a lottery ticket while your luck holds.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 15, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Around 400 according to Wikipedia. Down from 2,500 forty years ago. So quite a substantial number of kids.


Surprised it's that many, I thought it would be less than 100. Still, the Ofsted decision is a good thing, not only to stop segregation in mixed schools but then to extend it further to these 400 schools.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

cantsin said:


> thing is, if feels like a lot of the 'sneering liberal' stuff is in your / others heads - just haven't seen much of it about



It isn’t in my head at all. You just need to know where to look.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 15, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yesterday I opened Richard Evans' book about the nazis in power at random and read how goebbels' declared income went from 619 marks per year before the seizure of power to 300,000+. And as evans points out goebbels by no means singular. Yeh, they were never venal till Griffin came along



Himmler was morgaged up to his eyeballs at the time of his suicide and Hitler left precious little in his Will.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Himmler was morgaged up to his eyeballs at the time of his suicide and Hitler left precious little in his Will.



Did you bitch about ‘workerism’ in a post; it’s in my memory you did but I can’t find it now.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 15, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> I thought so ...prawn sandwich brigade



More a Pukka Pie man.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 15, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Did you bitch about ‘workerism’ in a post; it’s in my memory you did but I can’t find it now.



Yah....."Workerism" had a monotonous "stuck record" quality in the 1980's.  It's even more embarrasing now.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Yah....."Workerism" had a monotonous "stuck record" quality in the 1980's.  It's even more embarrasing now.



Care to expand as to why?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 16, 2017)

Joe Reilly said:


> Corrected...
> 
> 
> I am fully aware this is a generic liberal argument, (and what flank you think you are protecting) but as you raised it, can you explain why by drawing attention to the propensity of some Muslims to butcher fellow Muslims in the name of Allah, the far-right staple that 'Islam is the real problem' is debunked?



There are a couple of approaches to this which spring to mind, none of which would interest the far right, whose minds are already made up often in concert with a Key Stage 1 level of skewed theology that they parade as if it were degree level. 

One interesting, important and understated aspect is the Takfiri concept by which a minority of muslims, wantonly eschewing scholarly tradition, apointing to themselves the ability to denounce a fellow muslim as not a muslim at all, thus deserving of death.

If such a prime theology behind much Islamic violence sees itself as separate from the majority that's a strong demonstration that Islam itself isn't the problem. The notion of some kind of inbuilt supremicism in Islam is also commonplace among the phobes. While supremicism does rear its head in Islam and other religions, it is contrary to a key teaching of Mohammed (and one of my favourite quotes in all scripture): There is no compulsion in religion.

There are stacks of other things I could say, all perhaps piecemeal on their own but generating an accurate enough impression altogether that the political or theocratic terrorists and supremicists are an actual and structural minority. Islam per se is not the problem (although many atheists will see it as A problem just for being a religion at all, I get that) 

Examination of Takfiri ideology is not indulged in our propaganda networks. Not only does it require an attention span of more than 3 seconds and an IQ of possibly over 70, it's also hotly associated with the Saudi terror state birthed and supported by our own government. 

I'm very glad that the Brighton anti-fascist piece got into this stuff and the whole disgusting business of the Manchester bomber's group having their terror ops facilitated. If the establishment gave 2% of the fucks it pretends to give about victims, if the froth about each attack had any depth, this would have been a scandal to risk bringing the government down, but I've not heard a single Labour MP raise it. It's the only matter I've ever failed to receive a reply to from my (Manchester) MP. There is a concerted cover-up going on and the far right are as uninterested in it as their establishment allies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Himmler was morgaged up to his eyeballs at the time of his suicide.


Are you trying to suggest this was a factor in his death?


----------



## krink (Oct 16, 2017)

Martin Bormann had three videos overdue at Blockbusters when he croaked


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 16, 2017)

krink said:


> Martin Bormann had three videos overdue at Blockbusters when he croaked



And dental bills for 10 kids would be no joke, even on a Reichsleiter's salary.


----------



## hot air baboon (Oct 16, 2017)

I thought it was well known that Bormann was actually the financial brains behind the nazi party who negotiated Hitler's royalty agreements for Mein Kampf & also the use of his image on the postage stamps - & wasn't averse to wetting his beak on some of the cash inflow - a sort of Malcolm McLaren in a non-ironic  swastika armband


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Are you trying to suggest this was a factor in his death?



My original comment was more to do with UK fascists of recent memory. For all their venality I think the likes of Webster, Tyndall, Jordan, Edmonds etc. weren't driven by money where the likes of Griffin, "Robinson" et al are.

The shell of a party that is the current BNP is only kept ticking over so that it can benefit from the substantial Wills of a few elderly members (one property is said to be worth several millions).

Doesn't only apply to the fascists - far left groups are notorious for financial impropriety - the split between the SWP and it's US sister organisation ISO wasn't primarily political but financial and the CC of the former group have had their nose in the trough for years and don't forget that their businesses are run on the free (or incredibly low paid) labour of party members who are threatened and guilt tripped if they complain.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 16, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Care to expand as to why?


The idea that socialists or communists can only be from a working class background is self evident nonsense.


----------



## Shechemite (Oct 16, 2017)

I thought ‘workerism’ referred to a more specific politics - auntonmous/council communists in 1970s Italy?


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 16, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I thought ‘workerism’ referred to a more specific politics - auntonmous/council communists in 1970s Italy?



Maybe. For me it was always just a vehicle for pointless, ultra left, British groups of a few hundred to slag off pointless, ultra left, British groups of a few thousand.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 16, 2017)

Workerism and ultra left. Keep the pejoratives  coming.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> The idea that socialists or communists can only be from a working class background is self evident nonsense.



True.

We *have* to have some _bourgeois_ socialists and communists, so there's someone to betray us.  

After all, the working class *need* a better-educated and more articulate vanguard to lead them into the coming struggle, and direct our post-struggle move to a dictatorship of the proletariat.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 16, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Workerism and ultra left. Keep the pejoratives  coming.



"Ultra-left" is a good one. The Black Hand used to use it, almost as often as he said "praxis" during a conversation.  It ("ultra-left") seems to mean whatever the poster wants it to mean, but always in a disparaging way.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 16, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> The Black Hand used to use it, almost as often as he said "praxis" during a conversation.



It’s who it made me think of also.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 16, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Ultra-left" is a good one. The Black Hand used to use it, almost as often as he said "praxis" during a conversation.  It ("ultra-left") seems to mean whatever the poster wants it to mean, but always in a disparaging way.


Don't forget ' the war of the flea'


----------



## Poi E (Oct 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Hitler left precious little in his Will.



Quite a legacy, though.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2017)

krink said:


> Martin Bormann had three videos overdue at Blockbusters when he croaked


yeah and 1 of them was Downfall and he said it was an unfair portrayal that made him look 'cuntish.'


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2017)

Poi E said:


> Any skins on the demos?


mainly gray skins with optional red eyes.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 21, 2017)

Far right march today in Aldgate. 60-100 turned up at fairly short notice. Little or no opposition.

I expect we'll see a lot more of this now the FLAs given the far right a confidence boost.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> Far right march today in Aldgate. 60-100 turned up at fairly short notice. Little or no opposition.
> 
> I expect we'll see a lot more of this now the FLAs given the far right a confidence boost.


What little or no opposition?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 21, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> What little or no opposition?



It doesn't seem like there was any opposition. I might be wrong.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 22, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> It doesn't seem like there was any opposition. I might be wrong.



Well where are you getting your info from?


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 22, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well where are you getting your info from?



A Palantir.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2017)

Red Sky said:


> A Palantir.



Balls!


----------



## editor (Oct 26, 2017)

Well, this is nice

Why are Football Lads Alliance leaders promoting right wing extremist events? - Stand Up To Racism


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2017)

editor said:


> Well, this is nice
> 
> Why are Football Lads Alliance leaders promoting right wing extremist events? - Stand Up To Racism


No good will come of this, mark my words


----------



## agricola (Oct 26, 2017)

editor said:


> Well, this is nice
> 
> Why are Football Lads Alliance leaders promoting right wing extremist events? - Stand Up To Racism



"Anglo-Celtic culture"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2017)

agricola said:


> "Anglo-Celtic culture"?


Wise: Welsh, Irish, Scottish, English.

You should have a look at 'the bigger tory vote'

Nothing about football lads in there but still surprisingly useful


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 27, 2017)

Football Lads Alliance urges boycott of Wetherspoons after being duped by spoof Remembrance Sunday message

Stupid wankers.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 27, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Football Lads Alliance urges boycott of Wetherspoons after being duped by spoof Remembrance Sunday message
> 
> Stupid wankers.



Irresponsible of the people who run the spoof account too, dangerous stuff really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Irresponsible of the people who run the spoof account too, dangerous stuff really.


yeh cos when riled fla'ers got into wetherspoons to take this up with the staff they might have heart attacks when they saw them all wearing poppies.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Football Lads Alliance urges boycott of Wetherspoons after being duped by spoof Remembrance Sunday message
> 
> Stupid wankers.


but but but they're not racist just against extremism!


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Irresponsible of the people who run the spoof account too, dangerous stuff really.


it's fucking hilarious, the FLA and spoons can fuck right off


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

ddraig said:


> but but but they're not racist just against extremism!



Support for the poppy appeal is racist now?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 27, 2017)

editor said:


> Well, this is nice
> 
> Why are Football Lads Alliance leaders promoting right wing extremist events? - Stand Up To Racism



Is anyone actually surprised about this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Is anyone actually surprised about this?


yes, i am surprised that it wasn't immediately apparent to everyone that this would happen


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 27, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Football Lads Alliance urges boycott of Wetherspoons after being duped by spoof Remembrance Sunday message
> 
> Stupid wankers.




Wait till they find out about the plan to trial the use of arabic numbers in schools.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Wait till they find out about the plan to trial the use of arabic numbers in schools.


----------



## 19force8 (Oct 27, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Wait till they find out about the plan to trial the use of arabic numbers in schools.


I'd be against that - Indian numbers are good enough for me


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 27, 2017)

Seems like Martin Wright happened across the Whitechapel march:


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Support for the poppy appeal is racist now?


knew you'd bite, so predictable

no, calling for a boycott of a company because they have multi cultural staff and customers is
think a little harder
or you think their stupid knee jerk bollocks is acceptable and in line with "we're not wacist" spiel?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

ddraig said:


> knew you'd bite, so predictable
> 
> no, calling for a boycott of a company because they have multi cultural staff and customers is
> think a little harder
> or you think their stupid knee jerk bollocks is acceptable and in line with "we're not wacist" spiel?



Lots of people get touchy about poppies. Jingoists perhaps, patriotic certainly, but not necessarily racist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Lots of people get touchy about poppies. Jingoists perhaps, patriotic certainly, but not necessarily racist.


yeh. let's be generous and say the fla guiding forces are but jingos.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Lots of people get touchy about poppies. Jingoists perhaps, patriotic certainly, but not necessarily racist.


and being touchy about multiculturalism?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

ddraig said:


> and being touchy about multiculturalism?



The boycott was about poppies, not the ethnicity of bar staff. I’m fairly sure they’d have been aware that Wetherspoons have an ethnically mixed workforce before that spoof tweet. If that is their position then they’ll be doing plenty of marching - to and from work - given the racial mix of transport employees.



Pickman's model said:


> yeh. let's be generous and say the fla guiding forces are but jingos.



I think it’s fair to criticise / oppose them if they’re supporting fash stuff etc but not a boycott over poppies ffs. You might as well write off huge segments of the WC if that’s the case.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I think it’s fair to criticise / oppose them if they’re supporting fash stuff etc but not a boycott over poppies ffs. You might as well write off huge segments of the WC if that’s the case.


Why no criticism allowed?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Why no criticism allowed?



Worded it badly - I meant hysterically claiming it’s evidence of racism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Worded it badly - I meant hysterically claiming it’s evidence of racism.


Sure some will be along shortly

I've already written off the likes of Meighan


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Sure some will be along shortly
> 
> I've already written off the likes of Meighan



And that’s fair enough given he’s coming out in support of Headhunter cunts.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

Odd to have far right affiliations as a Spurs fan though.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Odd to have far right affiliations as a Spurs fan though.



I still remember " we are nazis, super nazis, from the Lane ..." and v nasty Raphael Meade songs,  at back of the Shelf early 80's , when there were still skins up there .

+ Paul P / South East Alliance is old school Spurs


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

cantsin said:


> I still remember " we are nazis, super nazis, from the Lane ..." and v nasty Raphael Meade songs,  at back of the Shelf early 80's , when there were still skins up there .
> 
> + Paul P / South East Alliance is old school Spurs



Fair enough, but it has a large Jewish fan base doesn’t it?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2017)

get a clue Magnus


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

ddraig said:


> get a clue Magnus



Let me know how your poppy seller pickets get on.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 27, 2017)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Seems like Martin Wright happened across the Whitechapel march:




One of his better reports. I was very suprised to hear that an FLA group gathered with an anti-Sharia banner (for 3 million people allegedly trying to take us over, this whole Sharia project is moving along very slowly). And shouting "This is England" at the end too!

Plus the plans to respectfully hijack RBL events.

Why on earth would people compare them to the EDL with behaviour like that?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Worded it badly - I meant hysterically claiming it’s evidence of racism.



Why aren't you calling it "wacism" any more? It's really satirical when you do that.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Let me know how your poppy seller pickets get on.


jumping to extreme conclusions again i see, sigh!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Why aren't you calling it "wacism" any more? It's really satirical when you do that.



Too busy smiling at you defending Sharia as a supposed progressive.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Too busy smiling at you defending Sharia as a supposed progressive.



Wow. Can you link to that bit please? Ta.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Wow. Can you link to that bit please? Ta.



Your scoffing at an anti-sharia banner.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Your scoffing at an anti-sharia banner.



I was very clearly mocking paranoia about sharia and those who think sharia will take over from the Muslim side. Clearly enough for anyone with half functioning logical faculties at any rate, which may not be fully inclusive.

Thanks for the answer though. I was wondering if you were being stupid or duplicitous, and am leaning towards the former for now, while noting the display of strutting arrogance that so often accompanies it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 27, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I was very clearly mocking paranoia about sharia and those who think sharia will take over from the Muslim side. Clearly enough for anyone with half functioning logical faculties at any rate, which may not be fully inclusive.
> 
> Thanks for the answer though. I was wondering if you were being stupid or duplicitous, and am leaning towards the former for now, while noting the display of strutting arrogance that so often accompanies it.



It’s not such a bad thing after all I suppose when it doesn’t affect yourself and there’s no threat of it doing so.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s not such a bad thing after all I suppose when it doesn’t affect yourself and there’s no threat of it doing so.



Would you purport that anyone opposed to the supposed spread of Sharia needs to get on side with this lot, or are you just falling short of being clever?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Would you purport that anyone opposed to the supposed spread of Sharia needs to get on side with this lot, or are you just falling short of being clever?



I wouldn’t, no, because the FLA don’t strike me as progressive. However, there’s an interesting similarity in that condemnation of Sharia could be cloaking racism like the condemnation of the FLA can cloak class prejudice.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I wouldn’t, no, because the FLA don’t strike me as progressive. However, there’s an interesting similarity in that condemnation of Sharia could be cloaking racism like the condemnation of the FLA can cloak class prejudice.



So as as working class person who opposes the FLA I am merely asserting class prejudice? Because they are mostly working class football supporters and friends, I as another working class person am suddenly an oppositional class because  I don't support them for example? 

There are reasons why other working class people will never support nor unite with groups like the FLA...you know why ffs.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> So as as working class person who opposes the FLA I am merely asserting class prejudice? Because they are mostly working class football supporters and friends and I as another working class person am suddenly another class because oppose them for example?
> 
> There are reasons why other working class people will never support nor unite with groups like the FLA...you know why ffs.



I thought you hated class being brought up in a debate?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I thought you hated class being brought up in a debate?



Pathetic attempt at a swerve there. I dislike class being used as a way to discount all other ways of understanding experience. You were at the WORKING CLASS LEAVE THEM ALONE SHIT...But you are not the only measure of the working class here are you? So reminded of that, you suddenly don't want to celebrate the 'working class' through the guise and attitudes of the FLA. No surprise, obviously.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Pathetic attempt at a swerve there. I dislike class being used as a way to discount all other ways of understanding experience. You suddenly don't want to celebrate the 'working class' through the guise and attitudes of the FLA. No surprise, obviously.



My position is I’m not writing off 10,000 people as racists for objecting to being bombed. I accept the far right will be trying to get its clutches on it but as I oppose Islamist scum I can hardly object to others doing likewise.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My position is I’m not writing off 10,000 people as racists for objecting to being bombed


 Who are you opposing with this non-position?  Who is writing off 10, 000 people as racist who don't want to be bombed? Why don't you just say that you support them?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Who are you opposing with this non-position?  Who is writing off 10, 000 people as racist who don't want to be bombed? Why don't you just say that you support them?



Why would I support them? My enemy’s enemy isn’t always my friend ffs.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 28, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I was very suprised to hear that an FLA group gathered with an anti-Sharia banner (for 3 million people allegedly trying to take us over, this whole Sharia project is moving along very slowly).



shariah law does not affect non-muslims, it is based on koran teaching muslims how to live 'correctly.' it's like that myth that 'they will have outbred us by 2050' which is mathematically impossible. 3 million muslims - minus those not able to have children, being children, being too old, or male  - leaves about 1 million women: how are 1 million women going to give birth to 58 million children in a a couple of decades? if they do there is gonna be a serious lack of baby bottles, nappies and peppa pig toys.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> shariah law does not affect non-muslims, it is based on koran teaching muslims how to live 'correctly.' it's like that myth that 'they will have outbred us by 2050' which is mathematically impossible. 3 million muslims - minus those not able to have children, being children, being too old, or male  - leaves about 1 million women: how are 1 million women going to give birth to 58 million children in a a couple of decades? if they do there is gonna be a serious lack of baby bottles, nappies and peppa pig toys.


12 years ago there were 2m Muslims in the UK. Amazing for a population to increase by 50% so quickly

Muslim population in England and Wales nearly doubles in 10 years


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My position is I’m not writing off 10,000 people as racists for objecting to being bombed. I accept the far right will be trying to get its clutches on it but as I oppose Islamist scum I can hardly object to others doing likewise.


I object to being bombed as I imagine you might. Not persuaded anyone would welcome being bombed.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> shariah law does not affect non-muslims, it is based on koran teaching muslims how to live 'correctly.' it's like that myth that 'they will have outbred us by 2050' which is mathematically impossible. 3 million muslims - minus those not able to have children, being children, being too old, or male  - leaves about 1 million women: how are 1 million women going to give birth to 58 million children in a a couple of decades? if they do there is gonna be a serious lack of baby bottles, nappies and peppa pig toys.



If the Muslim population keeps doubling, it won't be long before Britain is 4096% Muslim. "Experts" might say that's mathematically impossible, but whose side are they really on?


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I object to being bombed as I imagine you might. Not persuaded anyone would welcome being bombed.



Yep, I'm not going to pretend I understand the apocalyptic worldview of suicidal jihadi bombers, but having tens of thousands of nationalists marching through the streets saying they don't want to get bombed anymore seems like the kind of thing that would probably please them.


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 28, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> shariah law does not affect non-muslims,.


Of course it does. It might not be applied to non-muslims but that doesn't mean that it doesn't _affect_ them.

For a start it does affect me when such a sexist and homophobic system of law may be used to pressure people, because, as a communist and anarchist, I believe in solidarity. But it also affects society as a whole, it supports the organisation of political structures based on religion. In some countries that will be used as a direct attack on minority groups, atheists, political opponents etc. In this country supporting shariah law, arguing for it's formal inclusion as an alternate legal system, attacks universality, it bolsters the neo-liberal multiculturalism that is being used to attack class poltics, by e.g. reinforcing the drive faith schools. To say it doesn't affect non-muslims is crazy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course it does. It might not be applied to non-muslims but that doesn't mean that it doesn't affect them.
> 
> For a start it does affect me when such a sexist and homophobic system of law may be used to pressure people, because, as a communist and anarchist, I believe in solidarity. But it also affects society as a whole, it supports the organisation of political structures based on religion. In some countries that will be used as a direct attack on minority groups, atheists, political opponents. In this country supporting shariah law attacks universality, it bolsters the neo-liberal multiculturalism that is being used to attack class poltics, by e.g. reinforcing the drive faith schools. To say it doesn't affect non-muslims is crazy.


One law for them...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course it does. It might not be applied to non-muslims but that doesn't mean that it doesn't _affect_ them.
> 
> For a start it does affect me when such a sexist and homophobic system of law may be used to pressure people, because, as a communist and anarchist, I believe in solidarity. But it also affects society as a whole, it supports the organisation of political structures based on religion. In some countries that will be used as a direct attack on minority groups, atheists, political opponents etc. In this country supporting shariah law, arguing for it's formal inclusion as an alternate legal system, attacks universality, it bolsters the neo-liberal multiculturalism that is being used to attack class poltics, by e.g. reinforcing the drive faith schools. To say it doesn't affect non-muslims is crazy.



Additionally it seems quite bizarre that something shouldn’t be opposed as it only affects Muslims. It’s up there with saying we have no business interfering with things like female genital mutilation as it’s cultural. Liberal racism at its finest.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 28, 2017)

so - nobody can see the problem with several thousand angry blokes marching in opposition to another  communities religious practices? I mean - i am no fan of the catholic church - but I still have a big problem with the orange order marching through norn iron shouting about their hatred of Catholicism. 

Orthodox judaism is pretty reactionary as well (in fact, there might just be a connection between all three of these religions) - so whose up for getting a bunch of lads to march around london bellowing about the evils of kosher slaughter and circumcision? (oh - and have you noticed how many of those hebrews are in positions of power and influence .... ?) 

Does islam have a nasty, homophobic, misogynist, exceptionalist streak running through it? absolutely. 
Does this reactionary tradition fuel the actions of the murderous jihadi-cunts? - I would say it most certainly does. 

So is the best way to address that 

a. supporting and working with people within the muslim community who are trying to oppose those reactionary elements? (thereby allaying fears that it is not a racist/nationalist/sectarian campaign against  all muslims) ?

b. Organising for a bunch of angry, macho white men to get all in a  radge about shaira law? (whilst tapping into wider paranoia about "Islamic takeovers" of "anglo-Celtic culture" etc etc - and providing a fresh arena for the far right to take over) ?

Answers on a brick ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> so - nobody can see the problem with several thousand angry blokes marching in opposition to another  communities religious practices? I mean - i am no fan of the catholic church - but I still have a big problem with the orange order marching through norn iron shouting about their hatred of Catholicism.
> 
> Orthodox judaism is pretty reactionary as well (in fact, there might just be a connection between all three of these religions) - so whose up for getting a bunch of lads to march around london bellowing about the evils of kosher slaughter and circumcision? (oh - and have you noticed how many of those hebrews are in positions of power and influence .... ?)
> 
> ...


Yeh nobody but you obvs


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> so - nobody can see the problem with several thousand angry blokes marching in opposition to another  communities religious practices?


Where are you getting that from? Are you reading the same thread as me, there's been loads of criticism of the FLA.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Where are you getting that from? Are you reading the same thread as me, there's been loads of criticism of the FLA.


He has his superiority blinkers on


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 28, 2017)

i think people are cutting them too much slack. And the harsher criticism is being directed at those who are calling them racist. And i have never felt that being a shaven headed, macho, aggro twat is some great celebration of working class culture - its another load of reactionary, oppressive, narrow minded bollocks. Sharia law for white van man.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> i think people are cutting them too much slack. And the harsher criticism is being directed at those who are calling them racist. And i have never felt that being a shaven headed, macho, aggro twat is some great celebration of working class culture - its another load of reactionary, oppressive, narrow minded bollocks. Sharia law for white van man.



Has it occurred to your own bigotry that a lot of the people in attendance are bald for involuntary reasons?


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> i think people are cutting them too much slack. And the harsher criticism is being directed at those who are calling them racist. And i have never felt that being a shaven headed, macho, aggro twat is some great celebration of working class culture - its another load of reactionary, oppressive, narrow minded bollocks. Sharia law for white van man.


Who? In the last two pages alone you've had the editor, ddraig, taffboy, Ruitua1 (at least, apols if I've missed anyone) explicitly criticising them. And a bunch of other people implicitly criticising them. Over the same two pages you've got a single poster that you could accuse of "cutting them too much slack".


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 28, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Has it occurred to your own bigotry that a lot of the people in attendance are bald for involuntary reasons?



yes. i am a spam head myself - so no choice but to get the clippers out. but many choose the head-stubble as a badge of "working class identity"/looking hard.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2017)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I thought ‘workerism’ referred to a more specific politics - auntonmous/council communists in 1970s Italy?


Two entirely different things. Italian Wokerism (Operaismo) is the that idea that within the capitalist system the actions of the worker, of labour power, have active causal primacy and modifies and imposes  upon capital - capital responds to labour. Rather than the  more orthodox marxist view of capital as imposing upon a largely passive labour power. Summed up best in this passage from Tronti's Lenin in England:



> We too have worked with a concept that puts capitalist development first, and workers second. This is a mistake. And now we have to turn the problem on its head, reverse the polarity, and start again from the beginning: and the beginning is the class struggle of the working class. At the level of socially developed capital, capitalist development becomes subordinated to working class struggles; it follows behind them, and they set the pace to which the political mechanisms of capital’s own reproduction must be tuned.





> Our new approach starts from the proposition that, at both national and international level, it is the specific, present, political situation of the working class that both necessitates and directs the given forms of capital’s development. From this beginning we must now move forward to a new understanding of the entire world network of social relations.





The other workerism is the idealisation of a caricature of what it is to be working class - classically, white male factory workers. Then imposing this view of the class and what it's taken to think and how it acts across everything (_i don't need no books, where's me brown sauce etc, here's your houskeeping luv i'm going down the pub) _thus locking out any recognition of changes within the structure behaviour and views of really existing working class people whilst seeking to re-produce the old forms and deny any historical development. In the same way that top-down multi-culturalism seeks to produce and reproduce tight boundary and subjects who can be controlled via the rhetoric of _stepping out of line_. It's essentially the same identity politics.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Who? In the last two pages alone you've had the editor, ddraig, taffboy, Ruitua1 (at least apols if I've missed anyone) explicitly criticising them. And a bunch of other people implicitly criticising them. You've got a single poster that you could accuse of "cutting them too much slack".



im fucked if im going to re-read the whole thread right now and quote examples - maybe later. Itds less people supporting them - more a reluctance to comdem it as yet another spasm of EDL-esque racist-sectarianism cos "working class".


----------



## J Ed (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> i think people are cutting them too much slack. And the harsher criticism is being directed at those who are calling them racist. And i have never felt that being a shaven headed, macho, aggro twat is some great celebration of working class culture - its another load of reactionary, oppressive, narrow minded bollocks. Sharia law for white van man.



I have a shaved head. Makes me wonder whether people make these sorts of assumptions about me when I am walking about.


----------



## J Ed (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> im fucked if im going to re-read the whole thread right now and quote examples - maybe later. Itds less people supporting them - more a reluctance to comdem it as yet another spasm of EDL-esque racist-sectarianism cos "working class".



Seems to me that your complaint is that people on this forum are thinking and analysing rather than unthinkingly condemning.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> yes. i am a spam head myself - so no choice but to get the clippers out. but many choose the head-stubble as a badge of "working class identity"/looking hard.



So we’ve now plumbed to attacking them for their appearance.  

Which is acceptable because they’re not in some minority group where upon it becomes unacceptable.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 28, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So we’ve now plumbed to attacking them for their appearance.
> 
> Which is acceptable because they’re not in some minority group where upon it becomes unacceptable.



Its part of a particular look that has emerged over the past 15 years that supposedly signifies (white) working class identity. Plus baseball cap and hoody. beer gut optional. Its just noticeable just how prevalent that aesthetic is on things like the FLA march. Blah blah blah - sub cultural idenitfiers, decline of the phenomena of working class stylistic expression as cultural challenge, dull conformity, ross kemp.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 28, 2017)

i think you know i mean it is not binding for non-muslims. i despise any law which enshrines inequality like you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Its part of a particular look that has emerged over the past 15 years that supposedly signifies (white) working class identity. Plus baseball cap and hoody. beer gut optional. Its just noticeable just how prevalent that aesthetic is on things like the FLA march. Blah blah blah - sub cultural idenitfiers, decline of the phenomena of working class stylistic expression as cultural challenge, dull conformity, ross kemp.


Tosh


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## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Seems to me that your complaint is that people on this forum are thinking and analysing rather than unthinkingly condemning.


How dare they


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 28, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Its part of a particular look that has emerged over the past 15 years that supposedly signifies (white) working class identity. Plus baseball cap and hoody. beer gut optional. Its just noticeable just how prevalent that aesthetic is on things like the FLA march. Blah blah blah - sub cultural idenitfiers, decline of the phenomena of working class stylistic expression as cultural challenge, dull conformity, ross kemp.


Does it really signify (white ) working class identity ?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 28, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Does it really signify (white ) working class identity ?



no. thats the point. it does to the media and the likes of the FLA themselves - buts its like a cartoon version.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Does it really signify (white ) working class identity ?


What about black men with shaved heads and optional hoodies?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Seems to me that your complaint is that people on this forum are thinking and analysing rather than unthinkingly condemning.


The bastards!!!


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 29, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Its part of a particular look that has emerged over the past 15 years that supposedly signifies (white) working class identity. Plus baseball cap and hoody. beer gut optional. Its just noticeable just how prevalent that aesthetic is on things like the FLA march. Blah blah blah - sub cultural idenitfiers, decline of the phenomena of working class stylistic expression as cultural challenge, dull conformity, ross kemp.



I think many middle-class people losing their hair have also opted for a shaved head instead of a comb-over, tbf.


----------



## Fingers (Oct 29, 2017)




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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 29, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> I think many middle-class people losing their hair have also opted for a shaved head instead of a comb-over, tbf.


There _was_ a definite look at the march that was more than just “oh a lot of people have short hair” but that isn’t really surprising given that it had quite an exclusive demographic of attendees who tend to dress similarly, which is something we already know tbh.


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 29, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> So as as working class person who opposes the FLA I am merely asserting class prejudice? Because they are mostly working class football supporters and friends, I as another working class person am suddenly an oppositional class because  I don't support them for example?
> 
> There are reasons why other working class people will never support nor unite with groups like the FLA...you know why ffs.



A fair few wouldn't be what I would define as w/c either. Its not just about what you wear or how you speak. That as a general comment not aimed at you specifically.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2017)

seventh bullet said:


> A fair few wouldn't be what I would define as w/c either. Its not just about what you wear or how you speak. That as a general comment not aimed at you specifically.



Has anyone said that though? Others are bringing identity into it (quelle surprise) and then making out that some workerism View is informing the class composition, rather than the reality of WC people following football (and being involved in hooliganism albeit not exclusively).


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 29, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Has anyone said that though? Others are bringing identity into it (quelle surprise) and then making out that some workerism View is informing the class composition, rather than the reality of WC people following football (and being involved in hooliganism albeit not exclusively).



I'm white, male, have a bald head, worry lines and crow's feet, work an unskilled manual job and never went to university.  The football 'lads' have as much a definitive understanding of and can act as an authority on what it is to be 'working class' than I can.  And I don't need to be made aware of the unquestioned assumptions about people 'like me,' the othering, the bigotry and prejudices arrogantly and confidently displayed by my supposed social betters, and that I have been on the receiving end of, and no doubt will be again.  I'm quite glad I don''t fit the narrow image of a (more likely petit-bourgious) 'lad.'  The sort of Alright Jack, BTL, small-time employer scum also getting shot or worked to death en masse one day.  And I say that while regularly calling and being called a lad by w/c men and women (lass) at work etc.  I guess it's very much to do with the cultural divides between m/c and w/c and also within the w/c.  The informal, close, affectionate use of it in a social setting, and the pathetic, hollow caricature of a hard male.

Oh, and I don't like football.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 29, 2017)

seventh bullet said:


> Oh, and I don't like football.



Me neither. Football hooliganism is an interesting subject to explore though and its roots in the WC and links to politics. 
Whilst some are willing to write off everyone in the FLA as racists, thus pretty much guaranteeing them to be opposed to the ‘left’ I’d much rather see progressive arguments put forward to what I see as parts of the WC becoming politicised.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 30, 2017)

Behind these kind of 'working class' mass movements there's usually some wealthy libertarian prick bankrolling things because they don't want 'their taxes' going on things like supporting refugees or foreign aid, who see stirring up anti-immigrant sentiment as a way of guiding the public mood against these things. Not convinced this is just grass roots anger at murderous jihadis, I think we'll see some broader prejudices expressed and encouraged.


----------



## Ole (Oct 30, 2017)

No, this is a legitimate grassroots group in my opinion.

On what basis exactly has everyone in here written them all off as racists? Because John Meighan tweeted something? 

Christ.


----------



## Ole (Oct 30, 2017)

The so-called "People's Charter" organisation on the other hand "is a non-partisan British identitarian campaign group run by a diverse group of passionate Tory, UKIP, and other patriots."


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2017)

Ole said:


> No, this is a legitimate grassroots group in my opinion.
> 
> On what basis exactly has everyone in here written them all off as racists? Because John Meighan tweeted something?
> 
> Christ.


yeh. perhaps you should go back and read the thread and you'll see you're rather overstating matters.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There _was_ a definite look at the march that was more than just “oh a lot of people have short hair” but that isn’t really surprising given that it had quite an exclusive demographic of attendees who tend to dress similarly, which is something we already know tbh.



Lots of black MA1s, Quite a few Fred Perrys under them, Levis and boots.  Even if these blokes aren't fascists, a lot of them were probably skins, smoothies or suedeheads when younger.  That blatantly doesn't make them fascists, but it does make them part of a _milieu_ of which a large proportion *were* racist - The anti-Nazi skins, scooter-boys etc were always a minority.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

seventh bullet said:


> I'm white, male, have a bald head, worry lines and crow's feet, work an unskilled manual job and never went to university.  The football 'lads' have as much a definitive understanding of and can act as an authority on what it is to be 'working class' than I can.  And I don't need to be made aware of the unquestioned assumptions about people 'like me,' the othering, the bigotry and prejudices arrogantly and confidently displayed by my supposed social betters, and that I have been on the receiving end of, and no doubt will be again.  I'm quite glad I don''t fit the narrow image of a (more likely petit-bourgious) 'lad.'  The sort of Alright Jack, BTL, small-time employer scum also getting shot or worked to death en masse one day.  And I say that while regularly calling and being called a lad by w/c men and women (lass) at work etc.  I guess it's very much to do with the cultural divides between m/c and w/c and also within the w/c.  The informal, close, affectionate use of it in a social setting, and the pathetic, hollow caricature of a hard male.
> 
> Oh, and I don't like football.



You're right. Talking to local middle class folk, the assumptions about the FLA - where there are any at all - seem to centre around "that could be my plumber/builder/landscape gardener", so _petit bourgeois_ rather than proles, and the *immediate *assumption is that they* must *be racist. Trying to explain that all 1970s-80s skins etc weren't racists, and that a minority were physically opposed to racism doesn't sink in.  I suppose that they were rarely exposed to the reality, so learning differently causes a bit of cognitive dissonance.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

seventh bullet said:


> Oh, and I don't like football.



I do, but haven't gone to a match since The Taylor Report caused stadiums to become all-seater.  Sitting at a match - rugby or soccer - sucks all the joy out of watching.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me neither. Football hooliganism is an interesting subject to explore though and its roots in the WC and links to politics.



Even back in the '70s and '80s though, some of those links - a minority, to be sure - were not WC.  My foster-dad - a Grenadier Guard - reckoned that there were groups of Guards officers who "ran" with Chelsea hoolies - anecdotally confirmed by a Chelsea Headhunter I was acquainted with - when they were stationed at the DoY barracks in Chelsea, purely so that they could beat on WC kids.



> Whilst some are willing to write off everyone in the FLA as racists, thus pretty much guaranteeing them to be opposed to the ‘left’ I’d much rather see progressive arguments put forward to what I see as parts of the WC becoming politicised.



That's the *real* story, but it isn't the story that "sells", sadly.  The media aren't interested in investigating class politics and/or any possible justification for a supposed swing rightward.  All they're interested in is establishing the possibility as a "fact", to use as a springboard for attacks on the WC.
The annoying thing is, that there *IS* a story to be had.  Compare the economic situation - minus hyper-inflation - and the social situation, especially a perceived drift rightward into what boils down to the politics of self-interest, and we have *some* parallels with Italy, Portugal and Germany "between the wars" - a presumed confluence of interests between a rightward state and the _petit bourgeoisie_.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

Ole said:


> No, this is a legitimate grassroots group in my opinion.
> 
> On what basis exactly has everyone in here written them all off as racists? Because John Meighan tweeted something?
> 
> Christ.



If you're assuming that "everyone in here" has "written them all of as racists", it's pretty clear that you haven't read the thread, or that if you *have* read it, you haven't understood it, because that's exactly what most people have argued *against*

BTW, don't sign yourself "Christ".  It's presumptuous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 30, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you're assuming that "everyone in here" has "written them all of as racists", it's pretty clear that you haven't read the thread, or that if you *have* read it, you haven't understood it, because that's exactly what most people have argued *against*
> 
> BTW, don't sign yourself "Christ".  It's presumptuous.


and may lead to yer man suffering a similar fate to auld yeshua ben yahweh


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2017)

Ole said:


> On what basis exactly has everyone in here written them all off as racists? B


No one has actually said that so I've no idea why you're posting that up.


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I do, but haven't gone to a match since The Taylor Report caused stadiums to become all-seater.  Sitting at a match - rugby or soccer - sucks all the joy out of watching.


Get thee to Dulwich Hamlet!


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 30, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Even back in the '70s and '80s though, some of those links - a minority, to be sure - were not WC.  My foster-dad - a Grenadier Guard - reckoned that there were groups of Guards officers who "ran" with Chelsea hoolies - anecdotally confirmed by a Chelsea Headhunter I was acquainted with - when they were stationed at the DoY barracks in Chelsea, purely so that they could beat on WC kids.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You obviously never knew any Chelsea hooligans and your step Dad was talking out of his backside


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> You obviously never knew any Chelsea hooligans and your step Dad was talking out of his backside



And you know this because, oh great arbiter of...well, sweet fuck all, really?

That was "foster dad", by the way.  Your ability to read seems to be commensurate with your ability to read peoples' past history.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 30, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> And you know this because, oh great arbiter of...well, sweet fuck all, really?
> 
> That was "foster dad", by the way.  Your ability to read seems to be commensurate with your ability to read peoples' past history.


Because a lot of my mates were Chelsea hooligans


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Because a lot of my mates were Chelsea hooligans



In the 70s and 80s (as I mentioned earlier)?


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 30, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> In the 70s and 80s (as I mentioned earlier)?


Of course


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Of course



I think it's *you* that's talking out of your backside.  Next you'll be naming "mates" whose names have been in the public domain for years in "support" of your story, giving it the bigg'un again, like on the abominable "Clapton Ultras" thread.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 30, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think it's *you* that's talking out of your backside.  Next you'll be naming "mates" whose names have been in the public domain for years in "support" of your story, giving it the bigg'un again, like on the abominable "Clapton Ultras" thread.


Say what you like but I never saw any Chelsea Pensioners, Grenadier Guards, Queens guards or even Guards cigarettes( strictly No6). Just working class lads & girls out for an afternoon of mischief.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 30, 2017)

Ole said:


> No, this is a legitimate grassroots group in my opinion. On what basis exactly has everyone in here written them all off as racists? Because John Meighan tweeted something? Christ.


no because a lot of us have seen some of the same faces on that march - and those supporting them on far right sites - that we have been opposing for 20 odd years!


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## malatesta32 (Oct 30, 2017)

and we need an anti-racist Cricket Chaps Alliance!


----------



## Ole (Oct 30, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> no because a lot of us have seen some of the same faces on that march - and those supporting them on far right sites - that we have been opposing for 20 odd years!


Well then you're a fool to generalise. There are faces in the FLA that have done more to confront real fascism and real racism over decades, on football terraces and in their communities, than some of the people here who are sneering at all of them as a group. I know for a fact that there are good people there but of course I'm not saying they all are. If you know that there are bad people there, you should not assume they all are. Simple as that.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 30, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> no because a lot of us have seen some of the same faces on that march - and those supporting them on far right sites - that we have been opposing for 20 odd years!


I see the same faces from Trot groups and the Left Labour Party on demos but that doesn't necessarily make the demo a far left one.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> no because a lot of us have seen some of the same faces on that march - and those supporting them on far right sites - that we have been opposing for 20 odd years!



10,000 faces you recall so you do.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 30, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I see the same faces from Trot groups and the Left Labour Party on demos but that doesn't necessarily make the demo a far left one.



It's probably hard to say exactly what a demo is based on the faces, but not so hard to say what it is not.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2017)

You only have to watch Jeremy Kyle to see the Chav cunts who are brainwashed by Murdoch.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2017)

If only they read books and not tabloids.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2017)

Thick fuckers. Brexit. Shouldn’t be allowed to vote.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 30, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> no because a lot of us have seen some of the same faces on that march - and those supporting them on far right sites - that we have been opposing for 20 odd years!


Let's be honest - you just google news people convicted - you don't get out in the car and film anyone.  You don't do real research.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 30, 2017)




----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 30, 2017)

Ole said:


> There are faces in the FLA that have done more to confront real fascism and real racism over decades, on football terraces and in their communities, than some of the people here who are sneering at all of them as a group.



Well _if_ that's true- you'd think they'd have more sense then to be involved with something that is so obviously going  to attract the far right and act as a dog whistle to racists.


----------



## editor (Oct 30, 2017)

Ole said:


> Well then you're a fool to generalise. There are faces in the FLA that have done more to confront real fascism and real racism over decades, on football terraces and in their communities, than some of the people here who are sneering at all of them as a group. I know for a fact that there are good people there but of course I'm not saying they all are. If you know that there are bad people there, you should not assume they all are. Simple as that.


Then why doesn't the FLA come up with clearly worded, unambiguous messages of their strong opposition to all forms of racism and fascism?


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

editor said:


> Then why doesn't the FLA come up with clearly worded, unambiguous messages of their strong opposition to all forms of racism and fascism?


"The FLA" is basically a set of autonomous groups, largely football firms associated with various different clubs over the country and the England side, gathering for the purpose of demanding action against the jihadist threat as they see it. I've seen plenty of individual people in the FLA affirm that racism and racists and fascists aren't welcome. But you're gonna have a very hard time actually stopping them from turning up... let's face it they're the kind of wankers who are desperate to latch onto any working-class movement to give credibility to their own sick and twisted ends. 



Kaka Tim said:


> Well _if_ that's true- you'd think they'd have more sense then to be involved with something that is so obviously going  to attract the far right and act as a dog whistle to racists.


I don't agree with that because the far-right are attracted to all sorts of things, including many normal football clubs. They want to spread their poison there because they think they can 'recruit' people. They start with their own families and try to spread it in their own communities, with limited success. You think all the good people should leave any group that attracts any of the far-right; essentially handing it over to them? What kind of solution is that?

With regards to the "good people" I'm referring to, I'm not saying they're morally upstanding pillars of the community by the way, but they're the last people you can call racists or fascists. These are the kind of people who keep those wankers in check.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> "The FLA" is basically a set of autonomous groups, largely football firms associated with various different clubs over the country and the England side, gathering for the purpose of demanding action against the jihadist threat as they see it. I've seen plenty of individual people in the FLA affirm that racism and racists and fascists aren't welcome. But you're gonna have a very hard time actually stopping them from turning up... let's face it they're the kind of wankers who are desperate to latch onto any working-class movement to give credibility to their own sick and twisted ends.


There still would be nothing stopping speakers at the events they hold _unequivocally_ condemning all forms of racism and fascism. Why do you think that has never happened?


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

editor said:


> There still would be nothing stopping speakers at the events they hold _unequivocally_ condemning all forms of racism and fascism. Why do you think that has never happened?


What? Even if that is true and I don't know that it is; you think everyone in attendance has veto power on whoever speaks at the events? Guys turn up to represent their clubs and their communities. They don't go there thinking about what the Socialist Worker's Party will write on their website about it.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> What? Even if that is true and I don't know that it is; you think everyone in attendance has veto power on whoever speaks at the events? Guys turn up to represent their clubs and their communities. They don't go there thinking about what the Socialist Worker's Party will write on their website about it.


Who gets to choose who speaks at their events? Someone must decide who gets to have a go on the mic otherwise there'd be mayhem. So why has no one stood up and made an unequivocal condemnation of all forms of racism and fascism?

I've got a bit of a background in hands-on football activism but I've got no interest in associating myself with this lot.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> What? Even if that is true and I don't know that it is; you think everyone in attendance has veto power on whoever speaks at the events? Guys turn up to represent their clubs and their communities. They don't go there thinking about what the Socialist Worker's Party will write on their website about it.



Every far right movement has had its share of clueless guys not sure why they are turning up. Nothing new under the sun.


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Every far right movement has had its share of clueless guys not sure why they are turning up. Nothing new under the sun.


Flawless argument. Some of the guys aren't particularly politically educated. That must mark them out as a far-right movement once and for all.


----------



## krink (Oct 31, 2017)

I think this 'lads' needs to be looked at, people assuming this is 40 thousand football casuals/hooligans (we called them "boys"  in my day) I'm sorry but you seen the tat they're selling? Anyone know any boys who would wear that garbage? Look at the people on the march - loads of scruffy looking tramps. They'll be selling half and half scarves with the chelsea offshoot next. And as for the views of the people on it, read the social media, I was willing to give them a chance and defended them quite vociferously but even the official twitter accounts are posting some shite right wing bollocks now. It'll end in tears as too many egos and money involved.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 31, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Every far right movement has had its share of clueless guys not sure why they are turning up. Nothing new under the sun.



Not just the far right tbh. Plenty of naive student fuckwits etc. bussed in for leftish rallies.

It also tends to be the idiots that the media go for when they want a quote for the telly, just about any footage of road/RTS/mayday type protests in the 90s would invariably home in on some spaced-out pink-dreadlocked hippy freak who'd give them their 'I just want to party, maan' quote. It'd let the Home Counties know who the fight was really against.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> What? Even if that is true and I don't know that it is; you think everyone in attendance has veto power on whoever speaks at the events? Guys turn up to represent their clubs and their communities. They don't go there thinking about what the Socialist Worker's Party will write on their website about it.


Yeh we all *love* the SWP here


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> If only they read books and not tabloids.


Expect quite a few people on the march had read some richard allen


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> "
> 
> 
> I don't agree with that because the far-right are attracted to all sorts of things, including many normal football clubs. They want to spread their poison there because they think they can 'recruit' people. They start with their own families and try to spread it in their own communities, with limited success. You think all the good people should leave any group that attracts any of the far-right; essentially handing it over to them? What kind of solution is that?
> .




Sorry but that is disingenuous wank. The far right may be "attracted to all sorts of the things" - but they are sure as shit going to make a bee line for an "alliance of football supporters/firms protesting against jihadi terrorism" - and people from Muslim communities will most certainly see it a far right front organisation - the EDL mark 2 (which also started out as a "non-racist" alliance of football supporters).  

Its akin to the BNP organising their protests against "asian rape gangs" or the NF protests against "street mugging" in the 70s - weather intentional or not, its blatant dog whistle stuff. 
The people behind the FLA are - at best - criminally naive if they dont think that the far right are going to be all over this or that it doesn't play directly into the existing hysteria about "Islamic takeovers" and wider racism.

its like in _orange is the new black_ where the inmate who tries to organise an inmates "community group" opposed to  the latino prison gang is shocked when it  attracts all the white power nutjobs.


----------



## PaulOK (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> What? Even if that is true and I don't know that it is; you think everyone in attendance has veto power on whoever speaks at the events? Guys turn up to represent their clubs and their communities. They don't go there thinking about what the Socialist Worker's Party will write on their website about it.



It's an odd kind of fascist group who present their speaker list to SUTR/SWP for vetting/approval and remove those that the Trots don't like (i.e. Toni Bugle of the English Democrats).

Awww.....Bless their little cotton (Lacoste) socks !!


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> Flawless argument. Some of the guys aren't particularly politically educated. That must mark them out as a far-right movement once and for all.



I don't know if the argument is flawless or not, but your reading of it seems dishonest.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 31, 2017)

Fucking Hammer leads them.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2017)

10 000 and not one volunteer for the YPG? The FSA? Even shitty leftists can rustle up a few.


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

krink said:


> I think this 'lads' needs to be looked at, people assuming this is 40 thousand football casuals/hooligans (we called them "boys"  in my day) I'm sorry but you seen the tat they're selling? Anyone know any boys who would wear that garbage? Look at the people on the march - loads of scruffy looking tramps. They'll be selling half and half scarves with the chelsea offshoot next. And as for the views of the people on it, read the social media, I was willing to give them a chance and defended them quite vociferously but even the official twitter accounts are posting some shite right wing bollocks now. It'll end in tears as too many egos and money involved.



There are thousands of lads/hooligans who are turning out. Not all of them are and I suspect the London clubs are turning out more general football fans than others because of proximity.

With regards to Twitter, how many people are operating that official Twitter account? It's a few lads, probably John Meighan and his mate. Even then if you look just below the surface you can see the difference between them and far-right weirdos pretty quickly. E.g.



Check the replies.

I'm not denying for a second that the group is being latched onto by racist divs, and that these divs are all over social media. I'm not being facetious but did you read the social media around Mayweather vs. McGregor? The same type of racist weirdos were all over that trying to make it into a black vs. white thing.



TopCat said:


> Fucking Hammer leads them.


Spurs fans kicked it off didn't they?


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 31, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> 10,000 faces you recall so you do.



dont be silly. anti-fascists have identified EDL, pie and mash, infidels, bnp, britian first amongst them. which would indicate sympathy to overall goals of FLA. this is so like early EDL - the left unprepared, sat about waiting for their real sentiments to emerge, then finally attempting to mobilise.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 31, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I see the same faces from Trot groups and the Left Labour Party on demos but that doesn't necessarily make the demo a far left one.


yes but there is a unity in purpose is there not?

from celtic soccer fans :The Far Right FLA Does Not Have And Never Will Have The Remotest Connection Whatsoever To Celtic Fans.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 31, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Let's be honest - you just google news people convicted - you don't get out in the car and film anyone.  You don't do real research.



oh  no, its the arbiter of anti-fascism who knows fuck all about my personal situation at the moment. and what do you do barmaids apron? moderate a forum, determine who should do what? sit in smug incontinence? who gives a fuck what you think. you dont even know where i live. dick. as usual.


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> There are thousands of lads/hooligans who are turning out. Not all of them are and I suspect the London clubs are turning out more general football fans than others because of proximity.
> 
> With regards to Twitter, how many people are operating that official Twitter account? It's a few lads, probably John Meighan and his mate. Even then if you look just below the surface you can see the difference between them and far-right weirdos pretty quickly. E.g.


Any unequivocal condemnations of all forms of racism and fascism been posted up on that Twitter account then? And if not, why not? They clearly have a major problem with people thinking they're just a veiled cover for EDL Mk2, so why don't they get a-twitterin' and put that misconception straight? 

Such a clearly worded statement would make it clear those sort of people aren't welcome - so why haven't they done so?


----------



## chilango (Oct 31, 2017)

Saw "Football Boys FLA" scrawled on a billboard last night.


----------



## rekil (Oct 31, 2017)

Fantasy Football Lads Alliance should be a thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2017)

The Flying Pig said:


> Say what you like but I never saw any Chelsea Pensioners, Grenadier Guards, Queens guards or even Guards cigarettes( strictly No6). Just working class lads & girls out for an afternoon of mischief.



See, you're obviously talking shit.  Everyone knows what a vicious bunch of old cunts Chelsea Pensioners are.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> oh  no, its the arbiter of anti-fascism who knows fuck all about my personal situation at the moment. and what do you do barmaids apron? moderate a forum, determine who should do what? sit in smug incontinence? who gives a fuck what you think. you dont even know where i live. dick. as usual.


Is smug incontinence a thing?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2017)

malatesta32 said:


> yes but there is a unity in purpose is there not?
> 
> from celtic soccer fans :The Far Right FLA Does Not Have And Never Will Have The Remotest Connection Whatsoever To Celtic Fans.


They've got to get rid of the spart who does their slogans


----------



## krink (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> There are thousands of lads/hooligans who are turning out.
> With regards to Twitter, how many people are operating that official Twitter account? It's a few lads, probably John Meighan and his mate. Even then if you look just below the surface you can see the difference between them and far-right weirdos pretty quickly.


If you read all the threads you see the individual replies rather than the status type posts from the main account. They are often unequivocal in their condemnation of Muslims as a whole and agreeing with crackpot right wingers all the time. It was after reading these and then asking a few questions that they blocked me. One time I questioned why the official accounts said they were anti lefties and why anti Muslims rather than Terrorist Muslims. Blocked. When I first came across this fla thing I stuck up for them when some immediately called them all racist, I pointed out only the divvies like SWP were judging them all as racists. Pointed out how they should be given a chance. I feel a mug now as this lot seem very happy to accommodate far right, racists, anti Muslim, anti Catholic/republican, anti-lefties as long as they don't go too far and buy plenty of tat. And if you question it, blocked. Fuck em.


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

editor said:


> Any unequivocal condemnations of all forms of racism and fascism been posted up on that Twitter account then? And if not, why not? They clearly have a major problem with people thinking they're just a veiled cover for EDL Mk2, so why don't they get a-twitterin' and put that misconception straight?
> 
> Such a clearly worded statement would make it clear those sort of people aren't welcome - so why haven't they done so?


They have repeatedly told the far right to fuck off on Facebook. I don't know if they have on Twitter or not.



> But while FLA are clearly attracting members of the far-right, they are not organising as a fascist group. In the weeks leading up to the demo organisers of FLA posted explicit warnings to say that fascists would not be allowed on their demo, and also tried to emphasise that they were protesting extremism rather than Islam.


Report and analysis of FLA demo in London, Saturday 24th June

These aren't the type of people who simply leave when they are told. They're fanatics. Do Muslim extremists only associate with other extremists or do they try to infiltrate ordinary Muslim groups to spread their poison?


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> They have repeatedly told the far right to fuck off on Facebook. I don't know if they have on Twitter or not.


You just making excuses. It's not hard to get someone to stand up and make a statement at one of their rallies but it's never going to happen.


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Oct 31, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> The far right may be "attracted to all sorts of the things" - but they are sure as shit going to make a bee line for an "alliance of football supporters/firms protesting against jihadi terrorism"...
> 
> Its akin to the BNP organising their protests against "asian rape gangs" or the NF protests against "street mugging" in the 70s - weather intentional or not, its blatant dog whistle stuff...
> 
> its like in _orange is the new black_ where the inmate who tries to organise an inmates "community group" opposed to  the latino prison gang is shocked when it  attracts all the white power nutjobs.



So who is permitted to demonstrate against jihadi terrorism if working class football fans are considered off limits? Or is it totally taboo?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 31, 2017)

they say "all kinds of extremism" though don't they? not "just" jihadi terrorism


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2017)

Ho Chi Ming said:


> So who is permitted to demonstrate against jihadi terrorism if working class football fans are considered off limits? Or is it totally taboo?



A better question: what's the fucking point in a demonstration against jihadi terrorism?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> They have repeatedly told the far right to fuck off on Facebook.



They don't want people with swastika tattoos doing Nazi salutes at their demos, no doubt. It's a bad look and it makes it more likely that councils will be able to ban the demos. The EDL tried, with limited success, to weed out the exact same element. They tried everything except not being exactly the sort of thing that would attract them.


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

Raheem said:


> A better question: what's the fucking point in a demonstration against jihadi terrorism?


Letting the victims of jihadi terrorism know that you're on their side. You fucking prick.


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

Raheem said:


> They don't want people with swastika tattoos doing Nazi salutes at their demos, no doubt. It's a bad look and it makes it more likely that councils will be able to ban the demos. The EDL tried, with limited success, to weed out the exact same element. They tried everything except not being exactly the sort of thing that would attract them.


Let's fold up Manchester United Football Club and all football clubs then. Raheem says we're racist if we attract the far right.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> Letting the victims of jihadi terrorism know that you're on their side. You fucking prick.



Right, so its actually a march in solidarity of victims? Is that it?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 31, 2017)

thought their marches and petition were about demanding "internment and deportation" of those on the watch list?? 
and they think they'll be listened to/complied with as there are LOADS OF THEM


----------



## Kaka Tim (Oct 31, 2017)

Ho Chi Ming said:


> So who is permitted to demonstrate against jihadi terrorism if working class football fans are considered off limits? Or is it totally taboo?



well - if you dont want to inevitably just become yet another spasm of sectarian anti-muslim shite, you take steps to involve people from muslim communities and to exclude the far right. having a bunch of white blokes marching up and down playing hard men is only going to go one way.


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Right, so its actually a march in solidarity of victims? Is that it?


Yeah.


----------



## Poi E (Oct 31, 2017)

Like a victims' support group?


----------



## Ole (Oct 31, 2017)

ddraig said:


> thought their marches and petition were about demanding "internment and deportation" of those on the watch list??
> and they think they'll be listened to/complied with as there are LOADS OF THEM


The Watchlist Left. The Urban75 Left. For real.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> The Watchlist Left. The Urban75 Left. For real.


??? 
am i wrong?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> The Watchlist Left. The Urban75 Left. For real.


is there not a watch list for terrorists?
have some attackers not been on this watch list?
do the fla not want those on the watch list for islamic terrorism interned or deported?


----------



## ddraig (Oct 31, 2017)

quite happy to be corrected if wrong



> “The Government need to act their part. There’s been a lot of press around stuff like control orders, terrorists and extremists on watch lists – they seem to be aware of things, but there needs to be more action.
> 
> “They need to maybe look at changing the laws, putting in more control measures, what are they going to do with the information? And that’s where we’ll look to put in petitions to force their hand,” he added.


Why are four coachloads of football fans going to London when there's no match?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 31, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> well - if you dont want to inevitably just become yet another spasm of sectarian anti-muslim shite, you take steps to involve people from muslim communities and to exclude the far right. having a bunch of white blokes marching up and down playing hard men is only going to go one way.



Why don’t you organise a march using your own advice then?


----------



## editor (Oct 31, 2017)

Ole said:


> Yeah.


No they want people to be kicked out of the country without trial or due process. Just being _suspected_ is enough. No need for evidence. 



> They applauded when Mr Meighan called for foreign terror suspects under police investigation to be deported.
> 
> 'We want all terrorist suspects who are not British citizens, who pose a threat to society, to be permanently removed from this country,' he said
> 
> 'Why should they be allowed to do what they do? So what, they're suspects - get them out of here.'


http://www.   dailymail. co.uk/news/article-4958848/Thousands-football-fans-march-against-terror-London.html


----------



## ddraig (Oct 31, 2017)

editor said:


> No they want people to be kicked out of the country without trial or due process. Just being _suspected_ is enough. No need for evidence.
> 
> 
> http://www.   dailymail. co.uk/news/article-4958848/Thousands-football-fans-march-against-terror-London.html


that's what i was trying to look for


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

Ole said:


> The Watchlist Left. The Urban75 Left. For real.


I have a watchlist, which I compile from the TV guide every saturday


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 1, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Why don’t you organise a march using your own advice then?



Why do we need a march against the government response to jihadi terror? Other than as an outlet for a bunch of emotionally retarded, middle aged, fat blokes  to assert their their  masculinity?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 1, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Why do we need a march against the government response to jihadi terror? Other than as an outlet for a bunch of emotionally retarded, middle aged, fat blokes  to assert their their  masculinity?


I have to quote this for posterity.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Why do we need a march against the government response to jihadi terror? Other than as an outlet for a bunch of emotionally retarded, middle aged, fat blokes  to assert their their  masculinity?


It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than say something really fucking stupid and prove yourself one.


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Nov 1, 2017)

TopCat said:


> I have to quote this for posterity.



I'm thinking of getting it framed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2017)

Ole said:


> Letting the victims of jihadi terrorism know that you're on their side. You fucking prick.



Of which there are how many in the UK, or even in Europe?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

Ole said:


> Yeah.


so not a march defying jihadis then


----------



## PaulOK (Nov 1, 2017)

Raheem said:


> They don't want people with swastika tattoos doing Nazi salutes at their demos, no doubt. It's a bad look and it makes it more likely that councils will be able to ban the demos..



Another reason they don't want it is because few, if any, are actual Nazis and most are probably Tories of some stripe (if they bother voting at all).


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

Raheem said:


> They don't want people with swastika tattoos doing Nazi salutes at their demos, no doubt. It's a bad look and it makes it more likely that councils will be able to ban the demos. The EDL tried, with limited success, to weed out the exact same element. They tried everything except not being exactly the sort of thing that would attract them.


yeh. councils can't ban demonstrations.

next.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 1, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. councils can't ban demonstrations.



Sure, but that's only due to the technicality that you're a twat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

.


----------



## Nice one (Nov 1, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. councils can't ban demonstrations.
> 
> next.



you may want to rethink this

next.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

Nice one said:


> you may want to rethink this
> 
> next.


 good point well made apols Raheem

next


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 117699
> More football thugs jailed over Spurs clash with West Ham
> 
> not sure who you think yer man has credibility with Nice one outside hoolie circles.
> ...


Nice one i asked you this ^ a couple of weeks ago and would appreciate a reply.


----------



## Nice one (Nov 4, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I do, but haven't gone to a match since The Taylor Report caused stadiums to become all-seater.  Sitting at a match - rugby or soccer - sucks all the joy out of watching.



_never loosen the grip on our hand
_


----------



## TopCat (Nov 14, 2017)

They were meant to be out on Sunday for remembrance. Any reports?


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> _never loosen the grip on our hand
> _



"We Don't Move For Anyone"

Well, with attendances around the 70 people mark, there's plenty of space for everyone, no?


----------



## Nice one (Nov 14, 2017)

editor said:


> Well, with attendances around the 70 people mark, there's plenty of space for everyone, no?



Is that the dulwich hamlet variation on 'you've got no fans'? Are you the brixton village raider?

I hear the rabble have a new song in the offing:

_the guardian knows us
we don't care
we are dulwich
and-we-just-thank-fuck-the-left-liberal-news-media-cottoned-on-to-the-posh-lads-going-to-non-league-narrative
from the hill_


----------



## editor (Nov 14, 2017)

Nice one said:


> Is that the dulwich hamlet variation on 'you've got no fans'? Are you the brixton village raider?
> 
> I hear the rabble have a new song in the offing:
> 
> ...


What the fuck are you on about?


----------



## BCBlues (Nov 14, 2017)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you on about?



Delete the "about" Ed.
Seem a more appropriate question.


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 14, 2017)

TopCat said:


> They were meant to be out on Sunday for remembrance. Any reports?


Were they? Bit high risk if you ask me.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 14, 2017)

Why high risk? No violence at their demos from what I'm aware.


----------



## Nice one (Nov 15, 2017)

editor said:


> What the fuck are you on about?



you and the wealdstone raider - two people overly concerned about how many fans other clubs have (or don't have). Classy.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 15, 2017)

Nice one said:


> you and the wealdstone raider - two people overly concerned about how many fans other clubs have (or don't have). Classy.


Perhaps it was more a comment on the over the top banner in a near empty ground?


----------



## Nice one (Nov 15, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Perhaps it was more a comment on the over the top banner in a near empty ground?



perhaps they should have put a winky face on the end of the banner telegraphing the joke - _yes we know!_


----------



## 19force8 (Nov 15, 2017)

Poi E said:


> Why high risk? No violence at their demos from what I'm aware.


It wasn't just violence I was thinking about. Their demos and message so far have been centrally controlled so far. If they'd sanctioned numerous remembrance "parades" there would have been a strong chance that one or several would have been overrun by local fascists and then used to discredit them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 15, 2017)

Nice one said:


> perhaps they should have put a winky face on the end of the banner telegraphing the joke - _yes we know!_



Perhaps you should put your winky in a liquidiser?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 15, 2017)

TopCat said:


> They were meant to be out on Sunday for remembrance. Any reports?


I didn't hear anything about anything happening, which admittedly doesn't mean much, but I do try to look out for this stuff. Remembrance Sunday wouldn't have been a great time to mobilise I'd say as it's dominated by very mainstream processions already.

Tbh I don't expect any further big demos from the FLA; I think the majority will just get bored of the novelty of travelling somewhere and not having a fight, and go back to whatever they did previously, as well as being turned off by all the ladder-climbing arses trying to get some sort of control and boost their youtube channels. Soon it'll just be a few hardcore talking about how they're definitely nothing like the EDL.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 15, 2017)

I don't think they are interested in a fight but I do think that the novelty of going on a march that doesn't have much impact will wear off. There's no local activity and apart from marching and merchandising nothing else at the moment. It will lead to further political disengagement for the majority.


----------



## PaulOK (Nov 16, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I don't think they are interested in a fight but I do think that the novelty of going on a march that doesn't have much impact will wear off. There's no local activity and apart from marching and merchandising nothing else at the moment. It will lead to further political disengagement for the majority.



It's the sort of thing that will flare up depending on terrorist attacks and how serious they are - if there is a spate close to an international weekend football break then you could get a big march again but overall it's patchy and non linear.

However, It's nothing that you can build a serious, interventionist, political movement around. I don't think they are really all that political. Groups like SUTR/SWP and people like Martin Smith on his blog want to build it up purely because of the party building needs of the SWP as a group - not an objective assessment of the threat level.

Vis-à-vis nothing - I saw an FLA car sticker the other day - on a car in Northolt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> However, It's nothing that you can build a serious, interventionist, political movement around. I don't think they are really all that political.


yeh. never mind that their aim is a political aim, let's make them out to be lumpen scum.


----------



## PaulOK (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. never mind that their aim is a political aim, let's make them out to be lumpen scum.



They are neither lumpen or scum (although a few maybe both). I am just making an objective assessment of their political potential. It ain't much.

The FLA seem to be demanding a crack down and even internment (although the demands seem woolly and ill defined) - Marches every 4 or 5 months, that are largely ignored by the MSM, won't be forcing any government's hand. You cannot get momentum. Marching doesn't change anything in Britain (the anti war marches in 2003 proved that). Electorally the most successful British fascist group was the BNP in the 2000's (55 Councillors and the official opposition on Barking and Dagenham Council). They were able to grow and get traction precisely because they ditched marching and street fighting in the mid 90's.

Football fans just aren't a political force. They're football fans.

Meighan (or whatever his name is) advising Dianne Abbott and Labour to "Move over because the FLA is here now !" is not serious politics. It's the right wing version of Gerry Healy stating in the early 70's that the revolution was just around the corner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> They are neither lumpen or scum (although a few maybe both). I am just making an objective assessment of their political potential. It ain't much.
> 
> The FLA seem to be demanding a crack down and even internment (although the demands seem woolly and ill defined) - Marches every 4 or 5 months, that are largely ignored by the MSM, won't be forcing any government's hand. You cannot get momentum. Marching doesn't change anything in Britain (the anti war marches in 2003 proved that). Electorally the most successful British fascist group was the BNP in the 2000's (55 Councillors and the official opposition on Barking and Dagenham Council). They were able to grow and get traction precisely because they ditched marching and street fighting in the mid 90's.
> 
> ...


ah. an assessment of their political POTENTIAL. i see. you're conceding the point now you've admitted they're a political organisation if not a political force.


----------



## PaulOK (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> ah. an assessment of their political POTENTIAL. i see. you're conceding the point now you've admitted they're a political organisation if not a political force.



I am coming to the conclusion that you are not that political. You're on here to piss around and score points against strangers.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 16, 2017)

Will FLA campaign around this?

Price of Football 2017: Young adult fans are 'put off' by cost of football

Or is there as much chance of the Taxpayers Alliance campaigning on PFI rip-offs?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> I am coming to the conclusion that you are not that political. You're on here to piss around and score points against strangers.


yeh. you've made a few points, my sweet, which anyone with more than an ounce of political nous wouldn't have offered up as an analysis. your suggestion that the fla might be cut from the same cloth as the tyndall bnp for example. your assertion that all that was needed for the bnp to be successful was them to stop their street activity (which was a result of afa activity anyway). there were a number of more powerful factors that led to the success of the bnp, including but not limited to the attraction of sugar daddies, a more proficient administration, the abject performance of the labour party who took their traditional voters for granted, the bnp actually getting out and talking to people, tailoring their policies to what they heard of people's concerns. in addition, opposing the bnp in a traditional anti-fascist way was more difficult because they were now a political party. it was rather harder to run about after them and justify it - they were given political space, which they had been refused in the 1980s and 1990s. anti-fascist attention was turned to groups which still operated on the streets, although antifa did demonstrate against the bnp's red white and blue festival about ten years ago, in what turned out to be something of a disaster.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> They are neither lumpen or scum (although a few maybe both). I am just making an objective assessment of their political potential. It ain't much.
> 
> The FLA seem to be demanding a crack down and even internment (although the demands seem woolly and ill defined) - Marches every 4 or 5 months, that are largely ignored by the MSM, won't be forcing any government's hand. You cannot get momentum. Marching doesn't change anything in Britain (the anti war marches in 2003 proved that). Electorally the most successful British fascist group was the BNP in the 2000's (55 Councillors and the official opposition on Barking and Dagenham Council). They were able to grow and get traction precisely because they ditched marching and street fighting in the mid 90's.
> 
> ...


in addition, i have never said marches did do anything: a position i've repeatedly stated here for many years. the fla being an ineffective political organisation does not prevent them being a political body, if not a political force. do you understand the difference?


----------



## PaulOK (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you've made a few points, my sweet, which anyone with more than an ounce of political nous wouldn't have offered up as an analysis. your suggestion that the fla might be cut from the same cloth as the tyndall bnp for example. your assertion that all that was needed for the bnp to be successful was them to stop their street activity (which was a result of afa activity anyway). there were a number of more powerful factors that led to the success of the bnp, including but not limited to the attraction of sugar daddies, a more proficient administration, the abject performance of the labour party who took their traditional voters for granted, the bnp actually getting out and talking to people, tailoring their policies to what they heard of people's concerns. in addition, opposing the bnp in a traditional anti-fascist way was more difficult because they were now a political party. it was rather harder to run about after them and justify it - they were given political space, which they had been refused in the 1980s and 1990s. anti-fascist attention was turned to groups which still operated on the streets, although antifa did demonstrate against the bnp's red white and blue festival about ten years ago, in what turned out to be something of a disaster.



Well, at least I've prompted you to actually write something political and which can be engaged with (beyond the usual pissy little snide comments).

Afa was never as important as Afa thought is was. The 1980's and 90's was marked with little street gangs fighting each other, ignored by the vast mass of the population. Exciting for those involved, sure, but relatively unimportant. Men like to fight and when they can dress it up as a cause all the better. When the BNP decided to go beyond that it took off. . The relative non impact of fascist movements was and is due to the remarkable solidity of British state institutions, the solidity of the two party system in England (Scotland and Wales have never mattered to the fascists where they have their own little nationalisms), the voting system, and most importantly the timidity and small 'c' conservatism of the English 'average Joe' who moan a lot but do fuck all.

I concur with your analysis of the BNP except for the 'a more proficient administration' comment. It always was shambolic (party finances were tenners in a shoebox under the bed) and the BNP achieved their success (by the pitiful standards of UK fascism) almost in spite of themselves. They were never able to attract in sufficient numbers to university educated middle cadre so vital to any movement. At their electoral height a Guardian journalist infiltrated them and because he had a degree and could string a few sentences together he was given control of the Central London region, and its membership lists, after only a few months (it's how that ballerina was outed) - this hardly points to a "well oiled Nazi machine" (to quote Martin Webster). Just the opposite.

The Guardian journalist who became central London organiser for the BNP

"It was also a party which was about to appoint a Guardian journalist to one of its key positions."


----------



## PaulOK (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> the fla being an ineffective political organisation does not prevent them being a political body



If they are not effective then why be concerned about them? Let them wither on the vine - which they almost certainly will do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Well, at least I've prompted you to actually write something political and which can be engaged with (beyond the usual pissy little snide comments).
> 
> Afa was never as important as Afa thought is was. The 1980's and 90's was marked with little street gangs fighting each other, ignored by the vast mass of the population. Exciting for those involved, sure, but relatively unimportant. Men like to fight and when they can dress it up as a cause all the better. When the BNP decided to go beyond that it took off. . The relative non impact of fascist movements was and is due to the remarkable solidity of British state institutions, the solidity of the two party system in England (Scotland and Wales have never mattered to the fascists where they have their own little nationalisms), the voting system, and most importantly the timidity and small 'c' conservatism of the English 'average Joe' who moan a lot but do fuck all.
> 
> ...



TBF, Martin Webster was always well-oiled.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> Well, at least I've prompted you to actually write something political and which can be engaged with (beyond the usual pissy little snide comments).
> 
> Afa was never as important as Afa thought is was. The 1980's and 90's was marked with little street gangs fighting each other, ignored by the vast mass of the population. Exciting for those involved, sure, but relatively unimportant. Men like to fight and when they can dress it up as a cause all the better. When the BNP decided to go beyond that it took off.


'afa was never as important as afa thought it was'. if that's the case, why do you think the bnp retreated from the street, if it wasn't due to physical opposition on it?





> . The relative non impact of fascist movements was and is due to the remarkable solidity of British state institutions, the solidity of the two party system in England (Scotland and Wales have never mattered to the fascists where they have their own little nationalisms), the voting system, and most importantly the timidity and small 'c' conservatism of the English 'average Joe' who moan a lot but do fuck all.


your points here have nothing to do with the topic under discussion. 



> I concur with your analysis of the BNP except for the 'a more proficient administration' comment. It always was shambolic (party finances were tenners in a shoebox under the bed) and the BNP achieved their success (by the pitiful standards of UK fascism) almost in spite of themselves. They were never able to attract in sufficient numbers to university educated middle cadre so vital to any movement. At their electoral height a Guardian journalist infiltrated them and because he had a degree and could string a few sentences together he was given control of the Central London region, and its membership lists, after only a few months (it's how that ballerina was outed) - this hardly points to a "well oiled Nazi machine" (to quote Martin Webster). Just the opposite.
> 
> The Guardian journalist who became central London organiser for the BNP
> 
> "It was also a party which was about to appoint a Guardian journalist to one of its key positions."


yeh. i've not said they were a well-oiled fascist machine, simply that they were more proficient than they had been. their membership turnover was astonishingly high, with (iirc) only 20% of the membership staying in the party 5 years. but their growing membership was due to attracting more people than were leaving. and the number of people who voted for them indicates a constituency that a better organised body could maintain and grow. a great reason that the bnp didn't achieve better things was their inability to field more candidates not their policies. i'd very much differ with you that there's a need for any movement to have a university educated middle class cadre: indeed many movements would be much better off without one. infiltrating the bnp wasn't so very difficult, nor was the bnp's infiltration of e.g. the swp where they managed to get hold of a membership list.


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## The39thStep (Nov 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> 'afa was never as important as afa thought it was'. if that's the case, why do you think the bnp retreated from the street, if it wasn't due to physical opposition on it?your points here have nothing to do with the topic under discussion.
> 
> yeh. i've not said they were a well-oiled fascist machine, simply that they were more proficient than they had been. their membership turnover was astonishingly high, with (iirc) only 20% of the membership staying in the party 5 years. but their growing membership was due to attracting more people than were leaving. and the number of people who voted for them indicates a constituency that a better organised body could maintain and grow. a great reason that the bnp didn't achieve better things was their inability to field more candidates not their policies. i'd very much differ with you that there's a need for any movement to have a university educated middle class cadre: indeed many movements would be much better off without one. infiltrating the bnp wasn't so very difficult, nor was the bnp's infiltration of e.g. the swp where they managed to get hold of a membership list.



I wonder what happened to the two BNP students who joined the SWP in Manchester ?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 18, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I wonder what happened to the two BNP students who joined the SWP in Manchester ?



Probably froze to death, due to paper-selling duties.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2017)

PaulOK said:


> If they are not effective then why be concerned about them? Let them wither on the vine - which they almost certainly will do.


They may be ineffective in achieving their stated goal but that does not make them harmless


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## sealion (Nov 25, 2017)

Statement from the FLA
Understanding the Football Lads Alliance


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## editor (Nov 25, 2017)

sealion said:


> Statement from the FLA
> Understanding the Football Lads Alliance


It's as clueless as you might expect. 



> In your article, have you have completely failed to mention the _why_ the FLA even exist. Why has this become such an awkward problem you refuse to face, you’ve become bedfellows of Islamofascists, the same people who love to Indiscriminately murder innocents across London and Manchester, this poisonous ideology within Islam, the one appearing on every news outlet, every single day in life, constantly wreaking havoc wherever it rears its violent, ugly head. The far left has developed symbiosis with terrorism. Which really should be no surprise given Jeremy Corbyn’s past relationship with terrorist organisations.


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## albionism (Nov 25, 2017)

19force8 said:


> It wasn't just violence I was thinking about. Their demos and message so far have been centrally controlled so far. If they'd sanctioned numerous remembrance "parades" there would have been a strong chance that one or several would have been overrun by local fascists and then used to discredit them.


They are doing a good enough job to discredit themselves, given the caliber of speakers at their rallies.


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## sealion (Nov 25, 2017)

editor said:


> It's as clueless as you might expect.


All of it or the bit you have quoted ?


----------



## editor (Nov 25, 2017)

sealion said:


> All of it or the bit you have quoted ?


The bit I quoted was enough.


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## albionism (Nov 25, 2017)

.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 23, 2018)

Revealed: joint liaison initiative brings together fascist and far right groups


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## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2018)

Jut to remind people, that is Martin Smith AKA Comrade Delta's site.


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## Red Sky (Feb 23, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Jut to remind people, that is Martin Smith AKA Comrade Delta's site.



Seems well informed though.


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## likesfish (Feb 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> They may be ineffective in achieving their stated goal but that does not make them harmless



it is probably because a group like that attracts violent racist scumbags  rather than any inherent organisation there not organising ethnic cleansing anytime soon but you wouldn't want to run into them after they have had a few pints


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## butchersapron (Feb 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Seems well informed though.


Probably is. Just want people to be aware  - and have a think why people not a million miles from Smith's previous employers would like to get the idea of another resurgent right-wing street movement out there - as priority #1 for people to organise around.

Incidentally, i saw my first SWP street sale for years last weekend. 6 white blokes all over 60 shouting about building opposition to trump. I only highlight their age and race to show the total lack of young people. Never saw that at an SWP street sale before.


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## Red Sky (Feb 23, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Probably is. Just want people to be aware  - and have a think why people not a million miles from Smith's previous employers would like to get the idea of another resurgent right-wing street movement out there - as priority #1 for people to organise around.
> 
> Incidentally, i saw my first SWP street sale for years last weekend. 6 white blokes all over 60 shouting about building opposition to trump. I only highlight their age and race to show the total lack of young people. Never saw that at an SWP street sale before.



A resurgent right wing street movement is a definite possibility.  All the ingredients are there.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A resurgent right wing street movement is a definite possibility.  All the ingredients are there.


yeh as the left's street presence has declined, at the same time the far right's electoral strategy is in tatters, an opportunity presents itself


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## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Probably is. Just want people to be aware  - and have a think why people not a million miles from Smith's previous employers would like to get the idea of another resurgent right-wing street movement out there - as priority #1 for people to organise around.
> 
> Incidentally, i saw my first SWP street sale for years last weekend. 6 white blokes all over 60 shouting about building opposition to trump. I only highlight their age and race to show the total lack of young people. Never saw that at an SWP street sale before.


they have them in dalston and it would be better for the party if they stopped.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Probably is. Just want people to be aware  - and have a think why people not a million miles from Smith's previous employers would like to get the idea of another resurgent right-wing street movement out there - as priority #1 for people to organise around.
> 
> Incidentally, i saw my first SWP street sale for years last weekend. 6 white blokes all over 60 shouting about building opposition to trump. I only highlight their age and race to show the total lack of young people. Never saw that at an SWP street sale before.


i wonder if the average age of the swp membership is more than five years above that of the conservative party


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## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A resurgent right wing street movement is a definite possibility.  All the ingredients are there.


There's a difference in the  FLAs no confrontative well behaved marches against terrorism ( however patriotic they are)  with a right wing  movement that wants to control the streets.


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## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh as the left's street presence has declined, at the same time the far right's electoral strategy is in tatters, an opportunity presents itself


aside from voting  UKIP what has been the far rights electoral strategy?


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## Red Sky (Feb 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> There's a difference in the  FLAs no confrontative well behaved marches against terrorism ( however patriotic they are)  with a right wing  movement that wants to control the streets.



That's why I'm talking about the ingredients . The FLA has had a very different developmental trajectory to the EDL. The FLA is , for the moment, pretty centrally controlled, and focussing on a couple of big rallies a year. The EDL went viral very rapidly.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> aside from voting  UKIP what has been the far rights electoral strategy?


how quickly memories fade







for years the bnp pursued an electoral strategy which saw them gain scores of councillors and two meps.


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## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> how quickly memories fade
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes and it was very succesful but since the collapse of the BNP has there been a far right electoral strategy? The EDL never managed to do it by linking up with Paul Weston for the British Freedom Party and Britain First have always finished last.Compared to the European Far right they are an irrelevance.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Yes and it was very succesful but since the collapse of the BNP has there been a far right electoral strategy? The EDL never managed to do it by linking up with Paul Weston for the British Freedom Party and Britain First have always finished last.Compared to the European Far right they are an irrelevance.


Yeh the far right's electoral strategy you might say is in tatters. A return to the streets, which has taken place piecemeal over the past few years, now looks like a more general thing.


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## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh the far right's electoral strategy you might say is in tatters. A return to the streets, which has taken place piecemeal over the past few years, now looks like a more general thing.


If it wasnt for Islamacist attcks it would be  a return to the cul de sac .


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## Idris2002 (Feb 23, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Probably is. Just want people to be aware  - and have a think why people not a million miles from Smith's previous employers would like to get the idea of another resurgent right-wing street movement out there - as priority #1 for people to organise around.
> 
> Incidentally, i saw my first SWP street sale for years last weekend. 6 white blokes all over 60 shouting about building opposition to trump. I only highlight their age and race to show the total lack of young people. Never saw that at an SWP street sale before.


The lad who turned up at our picket yesterday selling the rag (which was actually better than I remembered, pity it's produced by such a rotten organization) was definitely "advanced in years", also.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> If it wasnt for Islamacist attcks it would be  a return to the cul de sac .


It's more complicated than that. There was little street activity in 2005, the BNP didn't do anything and the only people up for it were tiny groups. It's with the splintering of the BNP that competing groupuscules started back on the street, notably the EDL and Britain First. The inexperience of bnp activists in street activity told in 05, perhaps, while now there's people who've never known any real electoral campaign, who arrived after the high point of the BNP and only saw griffin's utter venality. The people who wrote the book on fascist electoralism are very much yesterday's men. Golding and yaxley lennon were never among the big hitters of griffin's bnp, not like arthur kemp or the auld bnp veteran lance stewart, late colonel in the south african police. They've made the street their priority in part because they  don't have the skill set or numbers to put together a real campaign for political office.


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## Yossarian (Mar 13, 2018)

So is this group doing anything more these days than posting racist memes on Facebook?


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## 19force8 (Mar 13, 2018)

There's a march planned in Birmingham on 24/3/18. With Anne-Marie Waters and Toni Bugle due to speak they seem to be embracing their racist roots. Also, it's rumoured the "DemocraticFLA" splitters will be holding an alternate demo on the same date also in Brum, but with UKIP leader Batten speaking.


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## rekil (Mar 13, 2018)

Their twitter machine is a shambles. Luke Nash Jones speaking in Birmingham as well which is amusing as I remember someone on here claiming that the FLA was for "lads" and "geezers", not "pencil-necks". He's about 5 foot 4. Even Tim Aker would have him.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 13, 2018)

is that Student unions are basically Marxist madrassas Nash Jones ?

The FLA output seems to have dropped much of their original set of publicised behaviours and the political side of the organisers seem to be rearing its head- Any idea on how this is being taken by the attendees from the original gatherings ?


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2018)

Yossarian said:


> So is this group doing anything more these days than posting racist memes on Facebook?
> 
> View attachment 129908


Pathetic but hardly surprising.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> It's more complicated than that. There was little street activity in 2005, the BNP didn't do anything and the only people up for it were tiny groups. It's with the splintering of the BNP that competing groupuscules started back on the street, notably the EDL and Britain First. The inexperience of bnp activists in street activity told in 05, perhaps, while now there's people who've never known any real electoral campaign, who arrived after the high point of the BNP and only saw griffin's utter venality. The people who wrote the book on fascist electoralism are very much yesterday's men. Golding and yaxley lennon were never among the big hitters of griffin's bnp, not like arthur kemp or the auld bnp veteran lance stewart, late colonel in the south african police. They've made the street their priority in part because they  don't have the skill set or numbers to put together a real campaign for political office.



I think it's more that a third option has arisen, the cultural front.

 In Griffins day the far right had to rely on mainstream media or the handful of cranks who subscribed to Spearhead. Now Tommy Robinson's social media reach is huge. Britain First apparently have second highest rated page on Facebook in the U.K. They don't need the street movements that propelled them to fame nor do they need the scrutiny of electoral politics to have the kind of influence they want.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I think it's more that a third option has arisen, the cultural front.
> 
> In Griffins day the far right had to rely on mainstream media or the handful of cranks who subscribed to Spearhead. Now Tommy Robinson's social media reach is huge. Britain First apparently have second highest rated page on Facebook in the U.K. They don't need the street movements that propelled them to fame nor do they need the scrutiny of electoral politics to have the kind of influence they want.


Good point


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## Red Sky (Mar 13, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Good point



I went to a talk on anti fascism at the Book fair maybe 7(?) years ago given by a Swede where he said then that Euro far right were obsessed with Gramsci. 

Tommy is returning to the street this weekend as he's heading to Speakers Corner to read out the speech of that Generation Identity bloke who got stopped from entering the country.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 13, 2018)

Don't suppose you remember who that talk was by Pickman's?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Don't suppose you remember who that talk was by Pickman's?


Paul Hull I think


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## Fedayn (Mar 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I went to a talk on anti fascism at the Book fair maybe 7(?) years ago given by a Swede where he said then that Euro far right were obsessed with Gramsci.



CasaPound in Italy certainly like his writing on how to win/change the culture.


----------



## rekil (Mar 14, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> is that Student unions are basically Marxist madrassas Nash Jones ?
> 
> The FLA output seems to have dropped much of their original set of publicised behaviours and the political side of the organisers seem to be rearing its head- Any idea on how this is being taken by the attendees from the original gatherings ?


That's him yes. There's a post on his site where he says that Martin Sellner is too nazi for him, while whoever runs the FLA twitter machine is RTing people crying about how he and Brittany Pettibone and Lauren Southern have been refused entry to the UK.




			
				nash-jones said:
			
		

> Anne-Marie Waters is not a Nazi, and I was disgusted when that article by Farage labelled her a racist.
> 
> I can’t make such positive remarks on this Sellner because only a few years ago he was part of the Nazi circle in Austria. At the Memorial of Wehrmacht pilot Walter Nowotny in 2009, Sellner was photographed with Wolfgang Lechner, and Gottfried Küssel who is currently in jail. Sellner called his earlier support for Küssel the product of an “effusive adolescent phase”.
> 
> German press claim that (translated), “Until 2011, Sellner was a neo-Nazi, engaged in a now outlawed right-wing extremist website and can be seen in photos alongside the Austrian Holocaust denier Gottfried Küssel.” Sellner was accused (it seems that he did) of running one of the main German-language actual Nazi websites, Alpen-Donau, and it seems that Generation Identitaire is a rebrand for ‘positive optics’.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 14, 2018)

FLA now declaring support for Anne Marie Waters outfit For Britain.

Also calling out to attend/protect Tommy Robinson's free speech effort at Speaker's Corner on Sunday .


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> FLA now declaring support for Anne Marie Waters outfit For Britain.
> 
> Also calling out to attend/protect Tommy Robinson's free speech effort at Speaker's Corner on Sunday .


Worth remembering last time TR was suspended on Twitter he gained 200,000 followers. This is a fucking sick country.


----------



## klang (Mar 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Tommy Robinson's free speech effort at Speaker's Corner on Sunday .


what time is he due?


----------



## klang (Mar 15, 2018)

littleseb said:


> what time is he due?


3pm i just saw


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2018)

littleseb said:


> 3pm i just saw


----------



## B.I.G (Mar 15, 2018)

Racists. Who was giving them the benefit of the doubt on this thread?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

B.I.G said:


> Racists. Who was giving them the benefit of the doubt on this thread?


You


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Worth remembering last time TR was suspended on Twitter he gained 200,000 followers. This is a fucking sick country.


Did he? This national twitter thing - where is it? Maybe additional followers were part of the pre existing global brigade of alt right types. All following each other.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Did he? This national twitter thing - where is it? Maybe additional followers were part of the pre existing global brigade of alt right types. All following each other.



200,000 of them?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> 200,000 of them?


Is there more people in the world than in the UK. Are there more people in the UK than in Brighton?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

This is an established figure in the vital battleground now is it then?


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## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

And can we drop the _tommy _fake camaraderie stuff as well while we're here. It's like hearing posh people call you mate.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> And can we drop the tommy fake camaraderie stuff as well while we're here. It's like hearing posh people call you mate.



Are you still pissed?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

One minute it's all about people just using the internet being shit, the next using the internet thing is a good sign of health.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> FLA now declaring support for Anne Marie Waters outfit For Britain.
> 
> Also calling out to attend/protect Tommy Robinson's free speech effort at Speaker's Corner on Sunday .


any quotes?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2018)

TopCat said:


> any quotes?



It's on their Twitter feed.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Did he? This national twitter thing - where is it? Maybe additional followers were part of the pre existing global brigade of alt right types. All following each other.


You do seem to have a major grump on. You're right, of course, not only could they have come from anywhere in the world, but followers can be bought (I'm told). Nonetheless, it seems getting banned is in certain circles free advertising.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> It's on their Twitter feed.


Just had a look. Interesting. Will this produce the mob they want?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Just had a look. Interesting. Will this produce the mob they want?



My guess is yes. Obviously I'll be overjoyed if it's a flop.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Just had a look. Interesting. Will this produce the mob they want?


rather surprised they have such difficulty with 'britain'


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> rather surprised they have such difficulty with 'britain'
> View attachment 130076


You shouldn't be:





Picture nicked from Hope not Hate website 13/09/16


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2018)

19force8 said:


> You shouldn't be:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and that union flag's a bit shite too.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 15, 2018)

19force8 said:


> You shouldn't be:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see the problem with this. He's British and he's called Ian, presumably.  It's like Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2018)

Raheem said:


> I don't see the problem with this. He's British and he's called Ian, presumably.  It's like Brexit.


if it was like brexit it'd be brian


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 15, 2018)

I think the lads_alliance account tweeting support for TR and AMW, and trying to organise people to support TR physically, means they've lost (or are in the process of losing) a lot of support. One of the selling points was always that the FLA wasn't some sort of EDL Mk 2 and wasn't tied to/being told what to do by existing groups and following the same agendas. This is basically saying exactly that.

Of course I don't know who runs that account and it may be that they're a faction that's not very representative. I'd be surprised to see many "FLA" on Sunday though, at least not people who wouldn't have been there anyway.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2018)

AMW seems desperate to get Tommy Robinson on board. Dont know about this lot, their economic stuff is weak and not populist enough( aside from defending the NHS) . Theres space for growth with an increasingly beleagured Britain First not functioning but if they want to replicate the success of the right in Europe they have to win votes or just reside in the margins of demos and protests.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if it was like brexit it'd be brian



Ah, now I see his error.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

apparently former kickboxer Andrew Tate  sun linky (Axed BB star Andrew Tate branded any woman who isn't a virgin 'used goods' and called himself a pimp) is boasting of taking a squad of Romanian heavies to the TR speakers corner cavalcade. not sure of the veracity of this but....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Did he? This national twitter thing - where is it? Maybe additional followers were part of the pre existing global brigade of alt right types. All following each other.



A world-circling alt. right reach-around. Bleurghhhh!


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> if it was like brexit it'd be brian [anag.]


FTFY just in case the original was too subtle


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> 200,000 of them?



They're aiming to get in the Guinness Book of Records for the worlds' biggest circle jerk.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 15, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> AMW seems desperate to get Tommy Robinson on board. Dont know about this lot, their economic stuff is weak and not populist enough( aside from defending the NHS) . Theres space for growth with an increasingly beleagured Britain First not functioning but if they want to replicate the success of the right in Europe they have to win votes or just reside in the margins of demos and protests.


Cough, Pegida, cough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> and that union flag's a bit shite too.



TBF, the union flag is a bit shite _per se_.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 15, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> apparently former kickboxer Andrew Tate  sun linky (Axed BB star Andrew Tate branded any woman who isn't a virgin 'used goods' and called himself a pimp) is boasting of taking a squad of Romanian heavies to the TR speakers corner cavalcade. not sure of the veracity of this but....



 

(he posts on his brother's account after he was banned from Twitter)

Given the enormous amount of shit he talks in general, I think this is possibly untrue.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 15, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 130086
> 
> (he posts on his brother's account after he was banned from Twitter)
> 
> Given the enormous amount of shit he talks in general, I think this is possibly untrue.


If he's a fantasist you've got to think those Warhammer(tm) figures are made of lead.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

He has been involved in ( likely failed) kickboxing venture in Romania of late so he has defiantly been there or thereabouts.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

that is an awful twitter feed


----------



## likesfish (Mar 15, 2018)

the far right you wouldn't want to meet them after the pubs close but as for planning anything.

Anybody who craves political power joins labour or the torys if they are remotely competent or can fake it you get the odd folk like the lib Dems and the greens.
   then you get the weirdos of various flavours with the left attracting one sort who are mostly harmless but if your a racist fuck who dreams of playing with guns you join the far right  who can occasionally climb out of the sewer to grab some council seat or a MEP job if very lucky.
  But the sunlight terrifies them as well as actually having to do something so they soon skuttle back into the gloom.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 15, 2018)

wonder what Magnus McGinty and Ole are saying about this lot these days...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 15, 2018)

it is likely bullshit but this will be a filmed performance with filth presence - it is more likely that the killa blow dispensing knuckleheads would get themselves nicked after getting a bit excited ( if they exist at all)

This is the kind of shit that TR and his gruppe muster. Awful people.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 15, 2018)

ddraig said:


> wonder what Magnus McGinty and Ole are saying about this lot these days...



Wait and see is a sensible approach to take and I’d still argue they’re not 10,000 fash regardless of what’s being tweeted by whoever controls that account.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 15, 2018)

likesfish said:


> the far right you wouldn't want to meet them after the pubs close but as for planning anything.


Did once on Mile End tube. I used to say they punched like girls until my current one offered to show me the error of my ways.*

* If you want to know - just "the look" was enough to have me screaming "not the face!"


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Wait and see is a sensible approach to take and I’d still argue they’re not 10,000 fash regardless of what’s being tweeted by whoever controls that account.



It's getting fashier, though, isn't it.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It's getting fashier, though, isn't it.



Don't if 'fash is such a useful term. More like ultra nationalist or a King&Country mob.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 15, 2018)

Who is though? Is there change?


----------



## Raheem (Mar 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Wait and see is a sensible approach to take and I’d still argue they’re not 10,000 fash regardless of what’s being tweeted by whoever controls that account.



10,000 people at a football match are not all going to be footballers either. Most of them will just be people who see some sort of appeal in football.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 15, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Who is though? Is there change?



No, I don't think this tells us anything useful at all in the larger scale of things. It's interesting that FLA got the numbers out in the beginning but not surprising that someone with shit political ambitions is now running their twitter account.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 15, 2018)

Raheem said:


> 10,000 people at a football match are not all going to be footballers either. Most of them will just be people who see some sort of appeal in football.



what point are you trying to make?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> what point are you trying to make?


Is there a point there at all I wonder


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 15, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> No, I don't think this tells us anything useful at all in the larger scale of things. It's interesting that FLA got the numbers out in the beginning but not surprising that someone with shit political ambitions is now running their twitter account.



I guess Meighan is still running it. He might not be after Sunday.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 15, 2018)

tbf the more far right groups the merrier get them all some facist pals all the far right killers in recent history either left or were on the fringes a facist with pals goes down the pub and sings racist songs.
  on their own they stew in there bedroom and start making pipe bombs


----------



## TopCat (Mar 16, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> apparently former kickboxer Andrew Tate  sun linky (Axed BB star Andrew Tate branded any woman who isn't a virgin 'used goods' and called himself a pimp) is boasting of taking a squad of Romanian heavies to the TR speakers corner cavalcade. not sure of the veracity of this but....


If true it just shows they have to go further afield to find enthusiasts who don't limp and have scars on their faces.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 16, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> View attachment 130086
> 
> (he posts on his brother's account after he was banned from Twitter)
> 
> Given the enormous amount of shit he talks in general, I think this is possibly untrue.


Two fat cousins?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 16, 2018)

TopCat said:


> Two fat cousins?



Sounds like a bingo call.

"Two fat cousins - Column 88"


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 17, 2018)

TR is now claiming on his YouTube (being publicised by the usual suspects, Breitbart, infowars etc) that he turned up to Speakers Corner today for some reason and the cops told him to get out of the park. Oddly, there is no actual video of his interaction with any cops, though you can see cops in the background in his video, and no specific detail. There’s basically him saying “freedom of speech” and telling everyone to go there tomorrow.


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

ddraig said:


> wonder what Magnus McGinty and Ole are saying about this lot these days...


Which lot? Nothing's changed for the majority, who in my view are just people who marched because they wanted to be counted as being wholly dissatisfied with the social/political response to the Islamist threat, across the spectrum. 

As if the Tory boy / far-right tosspots who are operating the Twitter account represent thousands of lads across dozens of different clubs. It is like you guys think everyone who marched last year following those terrorist attacks has been sitting at the feet of Jon Meighan or whoever, or otherwise dutifully waiting political instruction from this poxy social media account.

The vast majority of people haven't heard of any of these far-right figures you're sweating over except the two-faced Tommy Robinson, who has far-left thickos to thank for his popularity in the first place.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> The vast majority of people haven't heard of any of these far-right figures you're sweating over except the two-faced Tommy Robinson, who has far-left thickos to thank for his popularity in the first place.



What popularity? Even his own side wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire these days.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> Which lot? Nothing's changed for the majority, who in my view are just people who marched because they wanted to be counted as being wholly dissatisfied with the social/political response to the Islamist threat, across the spectrum.
> 
> As if the Tory boy / far-right tosspots who are operating the Twitter account represent thousands of lads across dozens of different clubs. It is like you guys think everyone who marched last year following those terrorist attacks has been sitting at the feet of Jon Meighan or whoever, or otherwise dutifully waiting political instruction from this poxy social media account.
> 
> The vast majority of people haven't heard of any of these far-right figures you're sweating over except the two-faced Tommy Robinson, who has far-left thickos to thank for his popularity in the first place.


hmmm
"you guys" 

so march under a banner, nevermind the increasing dodgy messages and associations, and think they'll be listened to as there's lots of them, if only marches worked eh!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> Which lot? Nothing's changed for the majority, who in my view are just people who marched because they wanted to be counted as being wholly dissatisfied with the social/political response to the Islamist threat, across the spectrum.
> 
> As if the Tory boy / far-right tosspots who are operating the Twitter account represent thousands of lads across dozens of different clubs. It is like you guys think everyone who marched last year following those terrorist attacks has been sitting at the feet of Jon Meighan or whoever, or otherwise dutifully waiting political instruction from this poxy social media account.
> 
> The vast majority of people haven't heard of any of these far-right figures you're sweating over except the two-faced Tommy Robinson, who has far-left thickos to thank for his popularity in the first place.


You seem to know a lot about what the vast majority of people don't know


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> The vast majority of people haven't heard of any of these far-right figures you're sweating over except the two-faced Tommy Robinson, who has far-left thickos to thank for his popularity in the first place.



That's kind of the point . TR is using his self created notoriety to bring these figures into the wider public domain.

I'd love to know how it's the Left who've created Tommy.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

SpookyFrank said:


> What popularity? Even his own side wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire these days.



He's got a huge profile, was widely congratulated on his appearance at the last FLA march and showed that he was capable of getting over a thousand out on the street last year in Manchester.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That's kind of the point . TR is using his self created notoriety to bring these figures into the wider public domain.
> 
> I'd love to know how it's the Left who've created Tommy.


They forced him to join the bnp and set up a tanning salon


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> The vast majority of people haven't heard of any of these far-right figures you're sweating over except the two-faced Tommy Robinson, who has far-left thickos to thank for his popularity in the first place.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> They forced him to join the bnp and set up a tanning salon



Probably the fact that Jeremy Paxman's a long term alumni of the RCG helped him get on Newsnight .


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Probably the fact that Jeremy Paxman's a long term alumni of the RCG helped him get on Newsnight .


And it was the farc who kept him stocked up with <sniff> marching powder


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> He's got a huge profile, was widely congratulated on his appearance at the last FLA march and showed that he was capable of getting over a thousand out on the street last year in Manchester.


I don’t think his profile is much any more compared to other YouTube alt right types, which is why we’ve got this huge marketing blitz for Brand Tommy now.

I watched him at the last FLA march. His behaviour was not that of someone who was involved or even particularly welcome. Obviously there’s an intersection but he stayed well away from the main event.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don’t think his profile is much any more compared to other YouTube alt right types, which is why we’ve got this huge marketing blitz for Brand Tommy now.
> 
> I watched him at the last FLA march. His behaviour was not that of someone who was involved or even particularly welcome. Obviously there’s an intersection but he stayed well away from the main event.



People were queuing up to get selfies with him!

Anyway the acid test will be tomorrow at Speakers Corner. Let's see who and how many turn up despite the shit weather. (Cue predictable snowflake gag)


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> That's kind of the point . *TR is using his self created notoriety to bring these figures into the wider public domain.*
> 
> I'd love to know how it's the Left who've created Tommy.


Hahahahaha like he has the power to do that.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> Hahahahaha like he has the power to do that.



I think he does. How did the Left create him btw?


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I think he does. How did the Left create him btw?


By cowering before Islamism.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> By cowering before Islamism.


how's that then?
like the lefties who went out to fight alongside the YPG while your lot shout online and go on a march?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> People were queuing up to get selfies with him!
> 
> Anyway the acid test will be tomorrow at Speakers Corner. Let's see who and how many turn up despite the shit weather. (Cue predictable snowflake gag)


They weren’t queueing up. There were people who wanted selfies every now and then when they recognised him hanging around not in the main group. Anyway yes let’s (not sure if I will be going along).


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I think he does. How did the Left create him btw?



Sending in money for radios and buy EDL hoodies facemasks etc.


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

ddraig said:


> how's that then?
> like the lefties who went out to fight alongside the YPG while your lot shout online and go on a march?


The people I know who went to Syria agree with me on this so you're not really going to convince me by hiding behind their courage. Tommy Robinson made his profile before that though didn't he.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> The people I know who went to Syria agree with me on this so you're not really going to convince me by hiding behind their courage. Tommy Robinson made his profile before that though didn't he.



The people I know who went to Syria don't.

Interview with an AFN activist fighting in Syria


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> By cowering before Islamism.



Something I remember to do 5 times a day.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> The people I know who went to Syria agree with me on this so you're not really going to convince me by hiding behind their courage. Tommy Robinson made his profile before that though didn't he.


how is mentioning the fact that lefties went to fight "hiding behind their courage"? 
and how many FLA supporters you reckon would do the same?


----------



## Nigel (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> The people I know who went to Syria agree with me on this so you're not really going to convince me by hiding behind their courage. Tommy Robinson made his profile before that though didn't he.


What people do you 'know' who went to Syria ?
FSA, Erdogan supporters, Pro Assad types ?
I have the impression you're bullshitting !

"Tommy Robinson made his profile before that though didn't he."
Before EDL as failed football hooligan & tout; it could only go downhill from there !


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Nigel said:


> What people do you 'know' who went to Syria ?
> FSA, Erdogan supporters, Pro Assad types ?
> I have the impression you're bullshitting !


Kurdish volunteers you div.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> By cowering before Islamism.


Do you know what cowering looks like? It looks like coming to an agreement with islamists - the famous covenants of security British and French governments had. When have you taken British or French governments to task over this?


----------



## Nigel (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> Kurdish volunteers you div.


For whom and where are they fighting ?
Had the impression TR is sympathetic towards Assad and his regime !
I've yet to encounter a Kurd of any persuasion contemporarily whose of that opinion !


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole has a point though. The left will oppose white fascists on U.K. soil but tend to be silent on clerical fascism. Which leaves it wide open for twats like Tommy Robinson and BF to tap into that sentiment exclusively.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ole has a point though. The left will oppose white fascists on U.K. soil but tend to be silent on clerical fascism. Which leaves it wide open for twats like Tommy Robinson and BF to tap into that sentiment exclusively.



The Left opposes clerical fascism when it opposes the link between our govts and Saudi Arabia , the primary sponsors of Wahabism.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> The Left opposes clerical fascism when it opposes the link between our govts and Saudi Arabia , the primary sponsors of Wahabism.





Magnus McGinty said:


> on U.K. soil


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

How that relationship has played out , how the British govt is happy to work with jihadists (Mujahideen , FSA etc) and indeed the covenants mentioned above. 

A significant part of that action takes place on U.K soil. A good start is the book Secret Affairs by Mark Curtis.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> How that relationship has played out , how the British govt is happy to work with jihadists (Mujahideen , FSA etc) and indeed the covenants mentioned above.
> 
> A significant part of that action takes place on U.K soil. A good start is the book Secret Affairs by Mark Curtis.



Fair dos. The far right don’t have free reign on this issue then.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 17, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Fair dos. The far right don’t have free reign on this issue then.



Anti-Fascism, Jihadism and The FLA


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 17, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Anti-Fascism, Jihadism and The FLA



I’m oot on the piss so I’ll check it tomorrow.


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Nigel said:


> For whom and where are they fighting ?
> Had the impression TR is sympathetic towards Assad and his regime !
> I've yet to encounter a Kurd of any persuasion contemporarily whose of that opinion !


What the fuck are you babbling on about?


----------



## BristolEcho (Mar 17, 2018)

So did they march today?


----------



## Corax (Mar 17, 2018)

No mention of Andy Swallow on this thread.

Can't find the article now, but read recently that he's been one of the founders and driving forces of the FLA. Former (claims 'current') ICF, leads the RWHF.


----------



## Nigel (Mar 17, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ole has a point though. The left will oppose white fascists on U.K. soil but tend to be silent on clerical fascism. Which leaves it wide open for twats like Tommy Robinson and BF to tap into that sentiment exclusively.


To be honest, like many a good lie there is an element of truth in what you are saying about Ole's position from elements of the traditional left about this !
Looking at the way in which RESPECT reacted and worked with Southern Asian communities groups & Muslims in hindsight gives some insight in which more Islamophile elements of left have made abberations here ! Pandering to the more vociferous Religious & Conservative elements of these communities rather than the more rebelious younger and outwardly looking people in these communities !
This is not to completely criticise this and other similar dynamics totally on this issue; under pressure from extreme Islamophobia, Racism & Xenophobia; much instigated by War Mongering Leaders Of Western World !
There are of course contradictions here such as political activists and spokespeople such as Salma Yaqoob !
Arundhati Roy wrote some articles on this as far as I remember !


----------



## Nigel (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> What the fuck are you babbling on about?


Who and where these people you claim are fighting in Syria's loyalties stand !
Who they are fighting for and what allegiances they have !

I find it very difficult to believe that these apparent volunteers and/or combatants, if they are YPG PYD would have the opinions that you claimed they expressed !


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Nigel said:


> Who and where these people you claim are fighting in Syria's loyalties stand !
> Who they are fighting for and what allegiances they have !
> 
> I find it very difficult to believe that these apparent volunteers and/or combatants, if they are YPG PYD would have the opinions that you claimed they expressed !


What opinions did I claim they expressed?


----------



## Nigel (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> What opinions did I claim they expressed?


It's your post !
#1425


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Nigel said:


> It's your post !


No, I said "they agree with me on this". 

Then you said that you very much doubt that, because Tommy Robinson supported Assad. 

Which is like saying Barcelona are a better side than Real Madrid because I ate a banana today.


----------



## Nigel (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> No, I said "they agree with me on this".
> 
> Then you said that you very much doubt that, because Tommy Robinson supported Assad.
> 
> Which is like saying Barcelona are a better side than Real Madrid because I ate a banana today.


Who agrees with you on this; Syrians, Kurds, Volunteers, Combatants ?
Where are they from and what are there allegiances ?


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Nigel said:


> Who agrees with you on this; Syrians, Kurds, Volunteers, Combatants ?
> Where are they from and what are there allegiances ?


All of the above. Their allegiances are to Rojava and the Kurdish resistance against the various aggressive state actors and jihadists in the region. 

What they agree with me on is that the Left have rolled over for Islamism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> All of the above. Their allegiances are to Rojava and the Kurdish resistance against the various aggressive state actors and jihadists in the region.
> 
> What they agree with me on is that the Left have rolled over for Islamism.


Yeh. Do they agree with you about the right rolling over for islamism? The best friends islamists have had are people on the right, including people like David Cameron.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Do they agree with you about the right rolling over for islamism? The best friends islamists have had are people on the right, including people like David Cameron.


Who, David Cameron that is, most people around or vulnerable to the far right would say is a traitorous establishment politician.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Who, David Cameron that is, most people around or vulnerable to the far right would say is a traitorous establishment politician.


Gave the islamists in Libya an air force

It's interesting yer man can unite the far right and those vulnerable to the far right


----------



## Ole (Mar 17, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Do they agree with you about the right rolling over for islamism? The best friends islamists have had are people on the right, including people like David Cameron.


Obviously, but that's beside my point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2018)

Ole said:


> Obviously, but that's beside my point.


Obviously they agree with you? What is your point?


----------



## Ole (Mar 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Obviously they agree with you? What is your point?


Go back and read it for yourself you boring prick.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2018)

Ole said:


> Go back and read it for yourself you boring prick.


Yeh this would be your dull repetition that the Left rolled over for Islamism I suppose. Or the bit where you say, but don't say how, the Left created Tommy Robinson.  you're so very keen to be a boring prick over your points but so reluctant to actually provide detail. It's very curious that you say all along the political spectrum people have rolled over for /cowered to islamism but you seem to blame the far left more than the US and British states, who have done far far more to create and indeed arm jihadists, see e.g. Charlie Wilson's war, to offer them sanctuaries - do look up covenants of security - but yet its the left's fault. And the Left you claim has done so much for TR. But not how... Why not show there's a spot of substance to you by actually providing some evidence for your claims, you pompous lying windbag


----------



## sealion (Mar 18, 2018)

Corax said:


> No mention of Andy Swallow on this thread.
> 
> Can't find the article now, but read recently that he's been one of the founders and driving forces of the FLA. Former (claims 'current') ICF, leads the RWHF.


That ^^^^ is about a march against the West ham owners.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 18, 2018)

Secret Facebook page reveals violence at heart of forum for ‘football fans’


----------



## Thimble Queen (Mar 18, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Secret Facebook page reveals violence at heart of forum for ‘football fans’



Reading that it makes the UK sound really fucked.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 18, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> Reading that it makes the UK sound really fucked.


Why?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Secret Facebook page reveals violence at heart of forum for ‘football fans’


Is that secret as in you have to join it?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 18, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Is that secret as in you have to join it?


invited


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 18, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Secret Facebook page reveals violence at heart of forum for ‘football fans’



The Diane Abbott stuff is pretty normalized across the right.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Mar 18, 2018)

emanymton said:


> Why?



It makes it sound like a really horrible place to be esp if you are a 'muslim-looking' person or black or brown more generally... Anonymous hatemail, wishing for public figures to be hung etc...


----------



## ddraig (Mar 18, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> It makes it sound like a really horrible place to be esp if you are a 'muslim-looking' person or black or brown more generally... Anonymous hatemail, wishing for public figures to be hung etc...


but but but, only a few bad apples and they love their mums!!


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 18, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> It makes it sound like a really horrible place to be esp if you are a 'muslim-looking' person or black or brown more generally... Anonymous hatemail, wishing for public figures to be hung etc...


Yeah, but if the left hadn't failed in their historic responsibility to demonise Islam these guys would all be on the side of progress now.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 18, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Is that secret as in you have to join it?



Looks like it. If there are 65k people, it’s not a secret.


----------



## Thimble Queen (Mar 18, 2018)

ddraig said:


> but but but, only a few bad apples and they love their mums!!



#notallracists


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Looks like it. If there are 65k people, it’s not a secret.


65,000 people can keep a secret if 64,999 of them are killed


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> The Diane Abbott stuff is pretty normalized across the right.


and the Khan stuff in London and the South.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 18, 2018)

Thimble Queen said:


> It makes it sound like a really horrible place to be esp if you are a 'muslim-looking' person or black or brown more generally... Anonymous hatemail, wishing for public figures to be hung etc...


Of course this stuff is vile but it's hardly limited to the UK, I'd be tremendously surprised if similar things weren't to be found across many countries. Sadly, compared with many european countries (France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy etc) the hard right in the UK is pretty weak.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 18, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course this stuff is vile but it's hardly limited to the UK, I'd be tremendously surprised if similar things weren't to be found across many countries. Sadly, compared with many european countries (France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy etc) the hard right in the UK is pretty weak.


I don't think it sad at all


----------



## Thimble Queen (Mar 18, 2018)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course this stuff is vile but it's hardly limited to the UK, I'd be tremendously surprised if similar things weren't to be found across many countries. Sadly, compared with many european countries (France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy etc) the hard right in the UK is pretty weak.



You're right the situation here in Germany is much worse. Although that's likely to be of little comfort to the people in the UK putting up with racist shit everyday.


----------



## redsquirrel (Mar 18, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think it sad at all


Yes, badly written. Should have said, sadly the hard right is not as weak in  many countries as it is in the UK.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 18, 2018)

Apparently this Pegida bloke got blocked as I suspect he knew would happen: Founder of far-right anti-Islam group Pegida barred from entry to UK and deported


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 18, 2018)

I didn’t go btw. I’m not part of an antifa group, I’m a photographer, and I’m interested in actual people not alt right publicity stunts where every cunt there has a YouTube channel.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 18, 2018)

did any of the iron guard shock troops turn up today?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Mar 18, 2018)

not-bono-ever said:


> did any of the iron guard shock troops turn up today?


TR seems to have turned up and made a speech (man speaks at speakers corner shock). There were a fair number of people there - the alt right lot are saying thousands, doesn’t look that many to me and I know that area pretty well, but a couple of hundred maybe, it looks busier than usual.


----------



## moochedit (Mar 18, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Is that secret as in you have to join it?



Fb has open, closed and secret groups.
"Closed" groups you can see they are there but you have to ask to join to read them. "Secret" groups you can't see them at all unless an existing member invites you. Guess someone was invited in that didn't like what they saw and tipped off the guardian.


----------



## Corax (Mar 18, 2018)

sealion said:


> That ^^^^ is about a march against the West ham owners.


Same guy who's reportedly one of the founders of the FLA.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 18, 2018)

Corax said:


> Same guy who's reportedly one of the founders of the FLA.



Swallow's a founding member I believe, but the FLA founder is Spurs former hoolie John Meighan.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 18, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> TR seems to have turned up and made a speech (man speaks at speakers corner shock). There were a fair number of people there - the alt right lot are saying thousands, doesn’t look that many to me and I know that area pretty well, but a couple of hundred maybe, it looks busier than usual.


So he did. But like Wodehouse's "Black Shorts" the incompetence seems to have been overwhelming:

Zelo Street: Tommy Robinson Free Speech Falls Flat


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 18, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> TR seems to have turned up and made a speech (man speaks at speakers corner shock). There were a fair number of people there - the alt right lot are saying thousands, doesn’t look that many to me and I know that area pretty well, but a couple of hundred maybe, it looks busier than usual.



People who went are saying between 700 - 1000. Big punch up with some Muslims who pray there at the start.


----------



## Lurdan (Mar 18, 2018)

Hilarious video shot from the crowd confirming that unless you were standing right in front of him you heard precisely fuck all. 



"Is he speaking yet?" ROFL.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 18, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> People who went are saying between 700 - 1000. Big punch up with some Muslims who pray there at the start.


One of my  nephews went he said well  over a 1000. He reckons  25 times that will have watched it on  line for the potential punch up and that its a propaganda victory for the far right, at least on line.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 18, 2018)

.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 18, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> One of my  nephews went he said well  over a 1000. He reckons  25 times that will have watched it on  line for the potential punch up and that its a propaganda victory for the far right, at least on line.



It is a propaganda victory of sorts. It's more interesting for the coalition that Tommy now represents.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 19, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> It is a propaganda victory of sorts. It's more interesting for the coalition that Tommy now represents.



yep, feels like he's getting much more alt right / global youtube crowd support now.


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 19, 2018)

1000's of people ... yeah 1000's of em....


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2018)

cantsin said:


> yep, feels like he's getting much more alt right / global youtube crowd support now.


don't know american support means that much


----------



## cantsin (Mar 19, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> don't know american support means that much



it might when he's trying to charge big $$$ for US campus tours as part of the Jordan Peterson, Sargon, Milo etc circus


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 19, 2018)

Cynical to suggest a patriot would use social media to cash in on his fame


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 19, 2018)

Spent a depressing  hour this morning looking at youtube videos around The Speakers Corner thing and then as always inevitably dragged into more and more crackpot debates and so called Youtube stars. Funny old world . Bizarre. But the again for some people that and Facebook is their world.


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 19, 2018)

cantsin said:


> it might when he's trying to charge big $$$ for US campus tours as part of the Jordan Peterson, Sargon, Milo etc circus



He's been speaking in the US? Amazed he could get in, with his convictions.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 19, 2018)




----------



## editor (Mar 19, 2018)

Old shouty Tommy's got a hilarious squeaky voice


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 19, 2018)

kenny g said:


>



Jesus wept


----------



## Ranbay (Mar 19, 2018)

editor said:


> Old shouty Tommy's got a hilarious squeaky voice



I count at least 1,087 people just next to him, and yeah what drug makes you sound like that!


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

cantsin said:


> it might when he's trying to charge big $$$ for US campus tours as part of the Jordan Peterson, Sargon, Milo etc circus


They won't let him in.


----------



## emanymton (Mar 19, 2018)

cantsin said:


> it might when he's trying to charge big $$$ for US campus tours as part of the Jordan Peterson, Sargon, Milo etc circus


Didn't he get into shit for trying to travel on someone else's passport once? Or am I getting confused with something else?

Edit - indeed he did

EDL leader jailed over USA trip


----------



## JimW (Mar 19, 2018)

If only there was some popular internet forum with a thread giving advice on getting into the US with a conviction.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> They won't let him in.



true, but suspect the principle remains - a lot of this new TR approach is aimed at the wider US audience, and has a more focused online business core at the centre of it all - cld be wrong


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 19, 2018)

cantsin said:


> true, but suspect the principle remains - a lot of this new TR approach is aimed at the wider US audience, and has a more focused online business core at the centre of it all - cld be wrong


It would be an outage to suggest that recent followers were not all UK based according to some retired swp anti-racist above.  And that consequently their idea of the uk - filtered thorough social medial followers - is a bit off.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Mar 19, 2018)

I’m still interested in the effect that Patreon, video channels etc will have on ambitious narcissists (we discussed this briefly on the commentariat thread)

I think it’s unlikely that TR and people like him will bother with leadership positions in organisations now. They can get all the glory and funding from smaller online stuff and avoid the aggro and responsibility. 

Not sure what that does for far right organisation generally as some strains of it were reliant on having a charismatic Leader?


----------



## pk (Mar 20, 2018)

What’s left of EDL or FLA or whatever they are now are keeping very quiet about one of their leaders being jailed for being a groomer of small children himself... and they really don’t like being shown this link:
English Defence League activist from Milton Keynes jailed for sexually abusing 10-year-old girl


----------



## Lurdan (Mar 20, 2018)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think it’s unlikely that TR and people like him will bother with leadership positions in organisations now. They can get all the glory and funding from smaller online stuff and avoid the aggro and responsibility.
> 
> Not sure what that does for far right organisation generally as some strains of it were reliant on having a charismatic Leader?



Probably just as well they're not going to be dependant on Robinson then. The mobile phone footage of him eventually getting around to self consciously reading out the speech wasn't exactly Mosley at Olympia quality. And if anyone had still been impressed enough to go look at his YouTube account yesterday they would have found not one but two versions of his thoughts on the afternoon. The first consisting of 90 seconds of him mumbling 'is it on yet?'. Not only did they upload this but it stayed up for quite a while before they spotted they'd done so.


----------



## Humirax (Mar 20, 2018)




----------



## StigoftheDig (Mar 21, 2018)

There is a whole web of YouTube channels based around this. They all upload the same stuff, they mirror other people's and they support it. There are good left wing channels and good stuff in opposition to this but there's nothing like the organisation.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Mar 22, 2018)

pk said:


> What’s left of EDL or FLA or whatever they are now are keeping very quiet about one of their leaders being jailed for being a groomer of small children himself... and they really don’t like being shown this link:
> English Defence League activist from Milton Keynes jailed for sexually abusing 10-year-old girl



Burn their pub down big man


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2018)

Dom Traynor said:


> Burn their pub down big man


He'll huff and he'll puff anyway


----------



## PaulOK (Mar 23, 2018)

StigoftheDig said:


> There is a whole web of YouTube channels based around this. They all upload the same stuff, they mirror other people's and they support it.



God ! Sounds riveting !


----------



## PaulOK (Mar 23, 2018)

Lurdan said:


> The first consisting of 90 seconds of him mumbling 'is it on yet?'



The NSDAP in the Thirties had "Deutschland Erwache"......Britain's leading fascist today has "is it on yet?"

Tomorrow (obviously) belongs to them.


----------



## StigoftheDig (Mar 23, 2018)

PaulOK said:


> God ! Sounds riveting !



Yeah, I have no wish to watch 300 versions of Tommy Robinson badly reading out a speech with a shaven headed man offering his commentary on it either. But it works. It fills up YouTube and Google with content and it pushes their stuff up the search results. 

People - particularly young people - are getting their news and their political education on these sites. Yes, it's a different forum to actually getting people on the street but it is important and it's online that the Overton window has been dragged so far to the right in the past few years. 

If you want a completely non-expert theory, then I'd say that it's partly because nationalist (OK racist really) voices have been effectively kicked off any mainstream media. But their opinions haven't gone away, and now they're used to operating in this uneregulated world and they know how it all works. It's partly because they're completely shameless - they "brigade" comments sections, they flag stuff they don't want seen, they pirate material they do want seen and upload it hundreds of times. And it's partly because of the algorithms, which value engagement over everything else. 

It scares the shit out of me. Alex Jones might be a joke, but he's now one of the most influential political commentators in the US. I genuinely believe that to be true. Same with his little UK mini-me. Audiences of millions. Yeah, some viewers are laughing at him, but many aren't. 

Advertising works, propoganda works... I really think the left has to get on this stuff in a better and more effective - and more shameless! - way.


----------



## StigoftheDig (Mar 23, 2018)

Thinking about what I posted there, my:

"It scares the shit out of me. Alex Jones might be a joke, but he's now one of the most influential political commentators in the US. I genuinely believe that to be true. Same with his little UK mini-me. Audiences of millions. Yeah, some viewers are laughing at him, but many aren't."

Might be overstating things a little. But I do think it's wrong to think of him and his ilk as fringe figures any more.


----------



## PaulOK (Mar 23, 2018)

StigoftheDig said:


> Thinking about what I posted there, my:
> 
> "It scares the shit out of me. Alex Jones might be a joke, but he's now one of the most influential political commentators in the US. I genuinely believe that to be true. Same with his little UK mini-me. Audiences of millions. Yeah, some viewers are laughing at him, but many aren't."
> 
> Might be overstating things a little. But I do think it's wrong to think of him and his ilk as fringe figures any more.



Quite a funny take down of Alex Jones here by John Oliver showing him to be the charlatan and huckster he is. Hucksterism seems to be a feature of these modern alt right "personalities" :


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2018)

Ole the puffed up bladder's gone very quiet


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 24, 2018)

About 3000 FLA in Birmingham today apparently. Well down on their own estimation.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> About 3000 FLA in Birmingham today apparently. Well down on their own estimation.


and  about 3000 on the Democratic FLA  march as well. Ann Marie Waters spoke at the FLA, I heard that Batten the UKIP guy spoke at the DFLA?. TR was there covering both sides for his channel.


----------



## StigoftheDig (Mar 24, 2018)

Is there some schism then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 24, 2018)

StigoftheDig said:


> Is there some schism then?


Yeh there's the official fla and the provisional fla


----------



## StigoftheDig (Mar 24, 2018)

And the Continuity FLA and the I Can't Believe It's Not the FLA?


----------



## JimW (Mar 24, 2018)

They fell out over how you calculate the date of Easter.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 24, 2018)

Yes I know who wrote it but it's an interesting take on the day.

REPORT WITH PHOTOS: rival demos by far right FLA factions in Birmingham


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Yes I know who wrote it but it's an interesting take on the day.
> 
> REPORT WITH PHOTOS: rival demos by far right FLA factions in Birmingham



Interesting in that although he although Smith labels them as fascist and racist street movement aside from the We want our Country Back and No Surrender chants the marches seem to have been  relatively disciplined  and restraind despite UAF turning up. I dont think that we can dismiss the For Britain speakers and the UKIP speakers.Ok same direction different paths but actually this smacks more of a potential political alignment than a reincarnation of the EDL and a potential base for standing candidates in elections.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 24, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting in that although he although Smith labels them as fascist and racist street movement aside from the We want our Country Back and No Surrender chants the marches seem to have been  relatively disciplined  and restraind despite UAF turning up. I dont think that we can dismiss the For Britain speakers and the UKIP speakers.Ok same direction different paths but actually this smacks more of a potential political alignment than a reincarnation of the EDL and a potential base for standing candidates in elections.



Those chants were pretty typical of the EDL. There was a stand off with the SUTR crowd but I get the impression that a massive police presence defused that one.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 24, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Those chants were pretty typical of the EDL. There was a stand off with the SUTR crowd but I get the impression that a massive police presence defused that one.


I saw some clips where there was a few verbal exchanges but no charging at the police. Smith only sets out the narrative so that the same old tactics that he advocates can be the conclusion. Prob a bit too late for candidates in the local elections for any new party and whilst they might have an online presence and a couple of marches( think the next one is Manchester) they haven't the infrastructure , political cadre or any local activity. Expect more of the same ?


----------



## PaulOK (Mar 25, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> I saw some clips where there was a few verbal exchanges but no charging at the police. Smith only sets out the narrative so that the same old tactics that he advocates can be the conclusion. Prob a bit too late for candidates in the local elections for any new party and whilst they might have an online presence and a couple of marches( think the next one is Manchester) they haven't the infrastructure , political cadre or any local activity. Expect more of the same ?



Tories and Labour have the electoral scene largely sewn up in the lead up to the next General election. Far right don't have the political space for a meaningful electoral intervention before then so they are in a period of transition and retrenchment. FLA could provide a "street army" for the far right that will almost certainly emerge from the polarisation engendered by an incoming Corbyn government (and a weakened Tory party in opposition) but the fact that they will be structurally separate from the main far right electoral force, and not under its discipline, will throw up a whole host of issues in itself. Allied to the fact that football hooligans are hardly the best human material to build a political cadre around (to put it mildly !). They are hardly the types who will take kindly to the frequent boring drudgey of political work not when there is a possibility of a punch up in the offing. If a new force does manage to mold something out of it they will be faced with the same contradictions between the ballot box and the Street (and how that interfaces with a small 'c' conservative British political culture) that faced the BUF in the thirties, the National Front in the Seventies and later the BNP in the 2000s...although the last group did go some way to resolve it (It withdrew from mass street activity almost entirely).

I cannot see Anne Marie Waters or her party making any impact later. She is a deeply (politically) unattractive individual, psychologically quite unstable and her pronounced Dublin accent, maniacal obsession with Islam and her private life will turn off the mass of potential far right support. We may see a return of Griffin later (who is in one of his periodic "radical" phases and biding his time abroad) around a new party or a new figure may emerge to take over Ukip. It is in flux.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Mar 25, 2018)

What is old Nick Griffin up to at the moment anyway?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 25, 2018)

Dom Traynor said:


> What is old Nick Griffin up to at the moment anyway?


Diversifying into asbestos removal apprenticeship schemes and YouTube cooking channels.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 25, 2018)

PaulOK said:


> Tories and Labour have the electoral scene largely sewn up in the lead up to the next General election. Far right don't have the political space for a meaningful electoral intervention before then so they are in a period of transition and retrenchment. FLA could provide a "street army" for the far right that will almost certainly emerge from the polarisation engendered by an incoming Corbyn government (and a weakened Tory party in opposition) but the fact that they will be structurally separate from the main far right electoral force, and not under its discipline, will throw up a whole host of issues in itself. Allied to the fact that football hooligans are hardly the best human material to build a political cadre around (to put it mildly !). They are hardly the types who will take kindly to the frequent boring drudgey of political work not when there is a possibility of a punch up in the offing. If a new force does manage to mold something out of it they will be faced with the same contradictions between the ballot box and the Street (and how that interfaces with a small 'c' conservative British political culture) that faced the BUF in the thirties, the National Front in the Seventies and later the BNP in the 2000s...although the last group did go some way to resolve it (It withdrew from mass street activity almost entirely).
> 
> I cannot see Anne Marie Waters or her party making any impact later. She is a deeply (politically) unattractive individual, psychologically quite unstable and her pronounced Dublin accent, maniacal obsession with Islam and her private life will turn off the mass of potential far right support. We may see a return of Griffin later (who is in one of his periodic "radical" phases and biding his time abroad) around a new party or a new figure may emerge to take over Ukip. It is in flux.




I wouldnt dismiss the ability of members of the FLA or DFLA to become active politically. It may fit a convenient narrative ( not saying that that is yours) to portray them as a one dimensional mass cast from Green Street who either  only know how to use their fists or after a boredom threshold has been passed revert to using their fists , the reality could be very different.  AFA for example had links to and recruited some very dedicated anti fascists who were active and influential supporters of Celtic, Hibs, Aston Villa and Man Utd.

I agree with you very much about the lack of space there is for the far right politically in terms of electoral success and this also applies to then left.  In addition  they are too single issue too short term  with no long term perspectives  and dont learn from successful projects abroad. However I am not convinced that mass street activity is on the cards either. Britain First's and  the EDLs activism for example has been a one way ticket to jail. I predict more of the same ie what has been relatively succesful ; a mixture of continued populist social media/ online work ( which the left has been poor in countering and competing with) and one off demos and stunts the size of which may well be triggered by Islamacist  terror attacks or child sexual assault cases ( there may be a role for some tie over with the FLA types in stewarding) . None of which quite fits either the ballot box or control the streets model or the traditional tactics of no platform anti fascism .

( edited as the original first para was off subject)


----------



## PaulOK (Mar 25, 2018)

Dom Traynor said:


> What is old Nick Griffin up to at the moment anyway?



He is on the fascist "Chicken Dinner" circuit in Eastern Europe looking at establishing "White homelands" with Jim Dowson and multi millionaire Roberto Fiore. i.e. selling gullible mugs plots of land in abandoned Serbian villages so they have a safe haven from the coming "race war" and White Genocide.

He is always giving lectures about Codreau, "political soliders" and (((Jewish))) conspiracies, exactly like what he was doing 30 years ago.

 If the opportunity presented itself to come back and lead a Civic Nationalist populist party again in the future (and make £££) he would drop all that and return.


----------



## Ole (Mar 25, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Yeah, but if the left hadn't failed in their historic responsibility to demonise Islam these guys would all be on the side of progress now.


The fact that the condemnation of Islamism is the same notion as demonising Islam to you, says everything that is wrong with your ilk. Condemning Islamism is 'racist' as you put it yourself.

You and your spineless friends are God's gifts to fascist recruitment. They use worms like you to poison people's minds. But keep patting yourself on your progressive back.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 30, 2018)

Ole said:


> The fact that the condemnation of Islamism is the same notion as demonising Islam to you, says everything that is wrong with your ilk. Condemning Islamism is 'racist' as you put it yourself.
> 
> You and your spineless friends are God's gifts to fascist recruitment. They use worms like you to poison people's minds. But keep patting yourself on your progressive back.


Oh dear, it's that man again.

Look at France where the left have been complicit in Islamophobia for over a generation. Now tell me how that's stopped fascists using Islamophobia for recruitment.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Oh dear, it's that man again.
> 
> Look at France where the left have been complicit in Islamophobia for over a generation. Now tell me how that's stopped fascists using Islamophobia for recruitment.



Are you equating opposition to Islamism on the left to ‘Islamophobia’?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Are you equating opposition to Islamism on the left to ‘Islamophobia’?



It's a fine line. The most obvious point of attack for the Left is Western government's complicity in the spread of Wahabism and the use of jihadism as a foreign policy tool.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> It's a fine line. The most obvious point of attack for the Left is Western government's complicity in the spread of Wahabism and the use of jihadism as a foreign policy tool.



There’s no fine line between opposing clerical fascists whilst not tarring all Muslims with the same brush. 
Unfortunately a lot of the left would rather say nothing which leaves it wide open for the likes of Robinson to be the voice of reason.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There’s no fine line between opposing clerical fascists whilst not tarring all Muslims with the same brush.
> Unfortunately a lot of the left would rather say nothing which leaves it wide open for the likes of Robinson to be the voice of reason.



Build it and they will come.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Build it and they will come.



This doesn’t reflect reality.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This doesn’t reflect reality.



How do you mean? Have you tried?


----------



## StigoftheDig (Mar 30, 2018)

But Tommy needs money!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> How do you mean? Have you tried?



Given most of the left are either in the say nothing or be hostile and accuse people of racism camps, how does that amount to ‘build it and they will come’?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Given most of the left are either in the say nothing or be hostile and accuse people of racism camps, how does that amount to ‘build it and they will come’?



Try it. Take a leaf out of Tommy's book. Get a Go Pro and go and hassle some Salafists (From a left wing perspective). Stick it on You Tube.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

StigoftheDig said:


> View attachment 131437
> 
> But Tommy needs money!



Oh dear.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Try it. Take a leaf out of Tommy's book. Get a Go Pro and go and hassle some Salafists (From a left wing perspective). Stick it on You Tube.



Not sure I agree that the spineless left will be convinced by this. Maybe you’re the one to try it?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure I agree that the spineless left will be convinced by this. Maybe you’re the one to try it?



You're the one who seems to think confronting "clerical fascism" is the priority.

Why are you reaching out to the spineless left in any case?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> You're the one who seems to think confronting "clerical fascism" is the priority.
> 
> Why are you reaching out to the spineless left in any case?



I’m not ‘reaching out’ to anyone. What is being pointed out is that they aid the rise of fascism. I know, bizarre isn’t it? But there we are. It is what it is.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not ‘reaching out’ to anyone. What is being pointed out is that they aid the rise of fascism. I know, bizarre isn’t it? But there we are. It is what it is.



And having pointed it out on this internet forum you're content to let the matter rest there ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> And having pointed it out on this internet forum you're content to let the matter rest there ?



You’re very eager for me to do some kind of credentials check or something. I presume it’s fine to discuss concepts on here without anyone having to slap their dick on the table? It’s a discussion forum, not a confession box.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 30, 2018)

"concepts" oh dear!!


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’re very eager for me to do some kind of credentials check or something. I presume it’s fine to discuss concepts on here without anyone having to slap their dick on the table? It’s a discussion forum, not a confession box.



It's a constant refrain of yours that nobody is doing anything to confront "clerical fascism". It seems reasonable to ask what you're doing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> It's a constant refrain of yours that nobody is doing anything to confront "clerical fascism". It seems reasonable to ask what you're doing.



Ok. I’m not scared to call out clerical fascists and I don’t call out those on the left, that also call them out, racists. 
What about you? Well I can see what you do by your defensiveness.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ok. I’m not scared to call out clerical fascists and I don’t call out those on the left, that also call them out, racists.
> What about you? Well I can see what you do by your defensiveness.



Where do you do this? On here?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Where do you do this? On here?



In some cosplay group I’m involved with. 
Do you just get irate about this stuff ‘on here’?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> In some cosplay group I’m involved with.
> Do you just get irate about this stuff ‘on here’?



No.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 30, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> No.



Can you provide real world examples of you getting annoyed with people on the left who have a position on Islamists?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Can you provide real world examples of you getting annoyed with people on the left who have a position on Islamists?



I haven't got video footage of any altercations, but then I don't really encounter leftists who offer up a robust defence of jihadism.

I do agree with and have helped disseminate the views expressed here...

Anti-Fascism, Jihadism and The FLA


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 30, 2018)

RIP Anna x


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 30, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> RIP Anna x



A real anarchist . Threw herself into everything going, No Borders, AFN, hunt sabbing , SMASH EDO. A real loss.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 30, 2018)

She was a diamond. Don’t see any far right fighting along side the Kurdish struggle & against IS

Fuck the right.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I haven't got video footage of any altercations, but then I don't really encounter leftists who offer up a robust defence of jihadism.
> 
> I do agree with and have helped disseminate the views expressed here...
> 
> Anti-Fascism, Jihadism and The FLA



So rather than a ‘fine line’ there appears to be a yawning gap between what ‘leftists’ will do about Jihadists at home compared with abroad. 
Anyway, as enjoyable as this tangent has been, my initial question that you leapt on was directed at somebody else.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So rather than a ‘fine line’ there appears to be a yawning gap between what ‘leftists’ will do about Jihadists at home compared with abroad.
> Anyway, as enjoyable as this tangent has been, my initial question that you leapt on was directed at somebody else.


Oh sorry, I thought Red Sky was providing enough sense to counter your nonsense.

Anyway, back to my point. are you saying the example of the French left is one that should be followed in the UK?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Mr.Bishie said:


> So rather than a ‘fine line’ there appears to be a yawning gap between what ‘leftists’ will do about Jihadists at home compared with abroad.
> Anyway, as enjoyable as this tangent has been, my initial question that you leapt on was directed at somebody else.



More that you're a shining example of the Left leading by critique rather than example.

Why do yourself whatever it is that you're demanding everyone else does . 

Or at the very least tell us all what it is?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Are you wanting Mr.Bishie to answer this?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Anyway, back to my point. are you saying the example of the French left is one that should be followed in the UK?



I haven’t mentioned the French left.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> So rather than a ‘fine line’ there appears to be a yawning gap between what ‘leftists’ will do about Jihadists at home compared with abroad.
> Anyway, as enjoyable as this tangent has been, my initial question that you leapt on was directed at somebody else.



Testing testing.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven’t mentioned the French left.


I didn't say you had, but as it was at the core of the post to which you were not responding I thought I'd give you a second opportunity to comment.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2018)

Obviously the only way to oppose religious extremism is to copy the french example (which, of course is one undifferentiated mass - all the easier to dismiss in one go). As someone coming from the SWP tradition of _sometimes with the islamists_ what is your preferred option of dealing with islamic - or any - extremism?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

19force8 said:


> I didn't say you had, but as it was at the core of the post to which you were not responding I thought I'd give you a second opportunity to comment.



It was aimed at Ole, not me. I asked you a question which you didn’t answer. Perhaps start with Butchers’ questions above seeing as you’re now keen to engage.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Obviously the only way to oppose religious extremism is to copy the french example (which, of course is one undifferentiated mass - all the easier to dismiss in one go).


Is it? Are they?





butchersapron said:


> As someone coming from the SWP tradition of _sometimes with the islamists_ what is your preferred option of dealing with islamic - or any - extremism?


Since that tradition is all laid out in extensive literature maybe you could tell us what your preferred option is. That way we'd save a lot of time


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Is it? Are they?
> Since that tradition is all laid out in extensive literature maybe you could tell us what your preferred option is. That way we'd save a lot of time



No they're not - that clearly is the handy way you were lining magnus up though.

Give us all a reminder then as i'm sure that there are people reading this not as au fait with the the ins-and-outs of  the_ with the islamists sometimes _line as yourself. I mean if you think it's the way to go i'm sure you'd be happy to lay it out for us rather than just demanding that others do something that you won't do for yourself.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> No they're not - that clearly is the handy way you were lining magnus up though.
> 
> Give us all a reminder then as i'm sure that there are people reading this not as au fait with the the ins-and-outs of  the_ with the islamists sometimes _line as yourself. I mean if you think it's the way to go i'm sure you'd be happy to lay it out for us rather than just demanding that others do something that you won't do for yourself.


Oh come on.

You've obviously got the answer why not just let us have it rather than waste time demolishing the SWP's worthless position?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Oh come on.
> 
> You've obviously got the answer why not just let us have it rather than waste time demolishing the SWP's worthless position?


Right - demands answer of magnus with his own prepared better answer to trump whatever response may get - gets all bashful when asked to actually outline answer. So you've sort of fucked your own chest-prodding haven't you?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Right - demands answer of magnus with his own prepared better answer to trump whatever response may get - gets all bashful when asked to actually outline answer. So you've sort of fucked your own chest-prodding haven't you?



What's your answer?


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Right - demands answer of magnus with his own prepared better answer to trump whatever response may get - gets all bashful when asked to actually outline answer. So you've sort of fucked your own chest-prodding haven't you?


Let me paraphrase you:



> I mean if you know the way to go i'm sure you'd be happy to lay it out for us rather than just demanding that others do something that you won't do for yourself.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 31, 2018)

Anyhow, I've a small local demo to go to, so maybe later. Or maybe never.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> What's your answer?


 There is no 'answer' - that was the point of my response intended to outline the utterly disingenuous and rather cheap rhetorical demand that 1968 made.  There are simply ways of approaching the problem - the one that i favour and that i think is most effective is treat islamism the same way as fascism. That is, to oppose it (not to temporary line up with it) on any possible basis when it encroaches on the space the left needs to win over (or at least have substantive influence in) whilst making a serious attempt to understand the material basis driving it and work to build a political response and alternative to those material determinations. And that doesn't mean joining the pkk - it means doing the hard work in w/c communities here and now.

However, 1968 does have an answer that was the point of his chest prodding - and i presume that you do too. The former is a little reluctant to outline it any detail though despite pointing out that the swp have produced a lot of defences of their answer. Maybe they'll overcome their shyness later.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2018)

19force8 said:


> Anyhow, I've a small local demo to go to, so maybe later. Or maybe never.


Yes, palestine calls - not so much ghouta or aleppo.


----------



## 19force8 (Mar 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, palestine calls - not so much ghouta or aleppo.


Does it? Then off you toddle.


----------



## cantsin (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There’s no fine line between opposing clerical fascists whilst not tarring all Muslims with the same brush.
> Unfortunately a lot of the left would rather say nothing which leaves it wide open for the likes of Robinson to be the voice of reason.



will say, that  little Red Repub Front ( Or IWCA / TAL etc ?  ) lot that looked liked they were going off to confront pro jihadis on the way to a Dover anti fash demo ( but got delayed or sthn - v shaky recall of details here ) had a pretty promising attitude / MO on paper. Cld have been v interesting if that had got going, and that's bought home when you see the positivity surrounding  the brave UK YPG / PPK volunteers fighting ISIS , as well as Turke etc ( who we only learn about if they get killed unfort ) .

(Though, we 're always better at mythologising actual fighters abroad, than those at home)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

cantsin said:


> will say, that  little Red Repub Front ( Or IWCA / TAL etc ?  ) lot that looked liked they were going off to confront pro jihadis on the way to a Dover anti fash demo ( but got delayed or sthn - v shaky recall of details here ) had a pretty promising attitude / MO on paper. Cld have been v interesting if that had got going, and that's bought home when you see the positivity surrounding  the brave UK YPG / PPK volunteers fighting ISIS , as well as Turke etc ( who we only learn about if they get killed unfort ) .
> 
> (Though, we 're always better at mythologising actual fighters abroad, than those at home)



I doubt that Red Sky etc would be supportive of any initiatives coming from that sector.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

cantsin said:


> will say, that  little Red Repub Front ( Or IWCA / TAL etc ?  ) lot that looked liked they were going off to confront pro jihadis on the way to a Dover anti fash demo ( but got delayed or sthn - v shaky recall of details here ) had a pretty promising attitude / MO on paper. Cld have been v interesting if that had got going, and that's bought home when you see the positivity surrounding  the brave UK YPG / PPK volunteers fighting ISIS , as well as Turke etc ( who we only learn about if they get killed unfort ) .
> 
> (Though, we 're always better at mythologising actual fighters abroad, than those at home)



Don't know what happened to that initiative. 

A number of antifascists associated with the AFN have gone out to Syria .

The fact is that "jihadists" don't organise anything like fascists or ultra nationalists and the state is already all over them.

Hence my question of what is it that people think should happen? 

Butchers answer is to organise politically in w/c areas. Solid stuff but you're going to have wade through a lot of tenants disputes, litter picks and playground repairs before you confront any jihadism (or fascism).


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I doubt that Red Sky etc would be supportive of any initiatives coming from that sector.



Why not ?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Why not ?



Because I sense hostility. Apols if I’m off the mark.


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Butchers answer is to organise politically in w/c areas. Solid stuff but you're going to have wade through a lot of tenants disputes, litter picks and playground repairs before you confront any jihadism (or fascism).


What else do you want - a phone call to the boss to stop it?


----------



## cantsin (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I doubt that Red Sky etc would be supportive of any initiatives coming from that sector.



feels like folk a bit closer to each other on this issue than the low level beef-vibe suggests - agree with RS, OB etc not going to watch full on jihadis get up to much on the street etc, so no easy answers re: future practical action, however game anyone is


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Don't know what happened to that initiative.
> 
> A number of antifascists associated with the AFN have gone out to Syria .
> 
> ...



These people operate in working class communities. They’re not appearing out of some mystical vacuum.


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## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because I sense hostility. Apols if I’m off the mark.



Completely.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> What else do you want - a phone call to the boss to stop it?



All that stuff is good to do , but if I announced at the next LAT public meeting that I was there to combat jihadism I think it would raise a few eyebrows .


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> These people operate in working class communities. They’re not appearing out of some mystical vacuum.



Some w/c communities more than others. 

 I've stated before that the very fact of white leftists/anarchists travelling to support communities dealing with far right marches goes some way to counter acting jihadist rhetoric.

It's not as good as a mass multi racial working class movement would be but in the meantime.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> All that stuff is good to do , but if I announced at the next LAT public meeting that I was there to combat jihadism I think it would raise a few eyebrows .



The article you linked to by Brighton Antifascists concluded that the govt should be protested by the FLA. Which is what they’re effectively doing anyway. 
Since when has Antifascism (the proper sort) argued for state intervention?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The article you linked to by Brighton Antifascists concluded that the govt should be protested by the FLA. Which is what they’re effectively doing anyway.
> Since when has Antifascism (the proper sort) argued for state intervention?



I think you should probably go and read it again.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> I think you should probably go and read it again.



Blaming foreign policy for Islamism and suggesting a change of that as a solution isn’t state intervention (ignoring the rest of that analysis for now)?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Blaming foreign policy for Islamism and suggesting a change of
> that as a solution isn’t state intervention (ignoring the rest of that analysis for now)?



It's arguing for an end to state intervention. Pointing out how the British state actively uses jihadism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> It's arguing for an end to state intervention. Pointing out how the British state actively uses jihadism.


You'd think Magnus had never read that book by Mark Curtis, secret affairs, or read about the evidence presented in this thread


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> You'd think Magnus had never read that book by Mark Curtis, secret affairs, or read about the evidence presented in this thread



It’s not odd then that the BA article sets itself out as the authority on fighting Jihadists by hanging on the coat tails of leftist volunteers fighting _alongside_ Western foreign policy yet concluding that _opposing_ Western foreign policy is the key to defeating Jihadism?


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It’s not odd then that the BA article sets itself out as the authority on fighting Jihadists by hanging on the coat tails of leftist volunteers fighting _alongside_ Western foreign policy yet concluding that _opposing_ Western foreign policy is the key to defeating Jihadism?



Not exactly hanging on the coat tails.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Not exactly hanging on the coat tails.



But a contradictory article non-the-less.


----------



## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But a contradictory article non-the-less.



Not really. It makes the point that ISIS pay masters are being left well alone by Western interests.

The article developed out of social media discussions with FLA supporters/members. They were generally surprised that it was leftists who were volunteering to fight for the YPG. It made a lot of them reconsider their views that the Left acts as an appeaser to or even a sponsor of jihadism. Which is the view universally pushed by the far right.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Mar 31, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Not really. It makes the point that ISIS pay masters are being left well alone by Western interests.
> 
> The article developed out of social media discussions with FLA supporters/members. They were generally surprised that it was leftists who were volunteering to fight for the YPG. It made a lot of them reconsider their views that the Left acts as an appeaser to or even a sponsor of jihadism. Which is the view universally pushed by the far right.



I agree it’s a good counter argument to twats on the right. I’m not sure ISIS had ‘paymasters’ btw; obviously someone was buying its oil but it was a functioning independent state not a client one afaik.


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## Red Sky (Mar 31, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree it’s a good counter argument to twats on the right. I’m not sure ISIS had ‘paymasters’ btw; obviously someone was buying its oil but it was a functioning independent state not a client one afaik.



I  think the idea was not to write off everyone on the FLA march off  as a twat.


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## Red Sky (May 8, 2018)

A Day for Fear


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 8, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A Day for Fear




Excellent write-up, ta. It encapsulates well the sweeping overlap of far-right thinking both sides of the atlantic, something which establishment media seems, on surface at least, quite slow on the uptake about.


----------



## Poi E (May 9, 2018)

Tens of thousands march for Scottish sovereignty over the weekend while thousands march in London for this. Move north looks more desirable day by day.


----------



## The39thStep (May 9, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> A Day for Fear


Quite a thoughtful article in my opinion and yes marches like this with their composition ie not exclusively white or male do pose questions for traditional physical force anti fascism. As a side thought there seemed to have been a bit of financial outlay on the tech equipment , security etc for this event.


----------



## Poi E (May 9, 2018)

Guess the lads dug deep, huh?


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## jimmer (Oct 11, 2018)

It's looking like the counter-protests against the DFLA march on Saturday are going to be big.

Why you should oppose the far right march on October 13th


----------



## pardon (Oct 12, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I agree it’s a good counter argument to twats on the right. I’m not sure ISIS had ‘paymasters’ btw; obviously someone was buying its oil but it was a functioning independent state not a client one afaik.



They were using weapons straight out the factory ordered under us army export licenses

WEAPONS OF THE ISLAMIC STATE | Conflict Armament Research

That's usually a fair guide to whose bidding they are doing

Flown in on Azerbaijani diplomatic flights

350 diplomatic flights carry weapons for terrorists

The wars in Syria, Libya, Iraq and Yemen saw the west use Jihadis to on a grand scale

The tories admitted working with Jihadis again in Libya

REVEALED: UK admits contact with Libyan group linked to Manchester bomber

The Dutch have admitted supplying groups they consider terrorists in Syria

Dutch funded 'jihadist' group in Syria, terror trial may now falter - DutchNews.nl

It's an open secret that Al-Nusrah were running the show in Syria

The UK was caught funding them

UK aid 'diverted to Syria extremists'

That scheme was suspenedefor a while, while the heat was on and then Boris decided to continue funding it a few weeks later

'Disappointing': UK revives aid scheme halted over alleged payments to Syrian jihadists

Tories love Jihadis it means they can warmonger without the need to parade dead British soldiers through the streets. Jihadis are Thatchers final gift to humanity.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2018)

Look at these muppets


----------



## klang (Oct 13, 2018)

editor said:


> Look at these muppets



B'hams Zulu warriors - as if the Zulu's wouldn't have been classed an extremist (if not terrorist) organisation.


----------



## editor (Oct 13, 2018)

littleseb said:


> B'hams Zulu warriors - as if the Zulu's wouldn't have been classed an extremist (if not terrorist) organisation.


Those Swansea cunts with the Union Jack and their 'division'


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## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2018)

jimmer said:


> It's looking like the counter-protests against the DFLA march on Saturday are going to be big.
> 
> Why you should oppose the far right march on October 13th




Numbers actually down on the last big London demo.


----------



## cantsin (Oct 13, 2018)

with all the ITK  insight of  someone 200 miles away and having the odd look at Twotter, seems like the antis did alright for themselves again, ie: blocked route / DFLA re routed - did anyone go ?

edit ( slightly pissed ) : just seen all the reports back


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2018)

cantsin said:


> with all the ITK  insight of  someone 200 miles away and having the odd look at Twotter, seems like the antis did alright for themselves again, ie: blocked route / DFLA re routed - did anyone go ?
> 
> edit ( slightly pissed ) : just seen all the reports back


My eldest went (again) and reported back a pretty standard stand-off with the FLA frustrated and out-numbered. He reckons the 'lads' were typically peeling of in 30-40 strong groups to have a go at the antis (possibly club association?) but getting nowhere (obviously) as the OB were spotting from the helicopters as usual and directing plod on the ground. Said some of the thickest did get a twating from the OB.


----------



## jimmer (Oct 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Numbers actually down on the last big London demo.


Down from the last 'Free Tommy' one? They were down from that a lot but the DFLA's numbers were comparable to the feeder march they did for the 'Day for Freedom' earlier in the summer, but that had a much more visible political presence, with a lot of Generation Identity and UKIP flags visible. This one felt like it was roughly the same number but with more football fans. I think this shows the FLA/DFLA is pretty much over, but that's largely because of Yaxley-Lennon's success in re-establishing himself as a leader of a street movement. When he's next in court I would expect there to be similar numbers as were out on Saturday outside, on a week day, and the next thing he calls on a weekend will definitely be bigger.

I think it's important for anti-fascists to remember that while Saturday's showing was fairly solid (by the AFN, Women's Strike and FLAF in particular), it will not be enough to get a comparable result against anything Yaxley-Lennon organises or backs in central London if the summer is anything to go by.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2018)

jimmer said:


> Down from the last 'Free Tommy' one? They were down from that a lot but the DFLA's numbers were comparable to the feeder march they did for the 'Day for Freedom' earlier in the summer, but that had a much more visible political presence, with a lot of Generation Identity and UKIP flags visible. This one felt like it was roughly the same number but with more football fans. I think this shows the FLA/DFLA is pretty much over, but that's largely because of Yaxley-Lennon's success in re-establishing himself as a leader of a street movement. When he's next in court I would expect there to be similar numbers as were out on Saturday outside, on a week day, and the next thing he calls on a weekend will definitely be bigger.
> 
> I think it's important for anti-fascists to remember that while Saturday's showing was fairly solid (by the AFN, Women's Strike and FLAF in particular), it will not be enough to get a comparable result against anything Yaxley-Lennon organises or backs in central London if the summer





jimmer said:


> Down from the last 'Free Tommy' one? They were down from that a lot but the DFLA's numbers were comparable to the feeder march they did for the 'Day for Freedom' earlier in the summer, but that had a much more visible political presence, with a lot of Generation Identity and UKIP flags visible. This one felt like it was roughly the same number but with more football fans. I think this shows the FLA/DFLA is pretty much over, but that's largely because of Yaxley-Lennon's success in re-establishing himself as a leader of a street movement. When he's next in court I would expect there to be similar numbers as were out on Saturday outside, on a week day, and the next thing he calls on a weekend will definitely be bigger.
> 
> I think it's important for anti-fascists to remember that while Saturday's showing was fairly solid (by the AFN, Women's Strike and FLAF in particular), it will not be enough to get a comparable result against anything Yaxley-Lennon organises or backs in central London if the summer is anything to go by.



When I posted this I meant down on our side. Apparently this wasn't the case but nonetheless I thought much the same re another "Free Tommy" effort.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 15, 2018)

I was describing it to a friend earlier today and the more I think about it, the less it felt like a political march at all - more like the unity march was the main one and the dfla were counter-protestors. It was a mess by the time it hit the top of Whitehall and at that point loads of people peeled off and hung about looking for an opening, trying to wind up marchers and the cops. There were loads of tourists there at the same time which made it even more chaotic. In terms of numbers it was about the same as the last one but in terms of focus it was nothing.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 15, 2018)

jimmer said:


> Down from the last 'Free Tommy' one? They were down from that a lot but the DFLA's numbers were comparable to the feeder march they did for the 'Day for Freedom' earlier in the summer, but that had a much more visible political presence, with a lot of Generation Identity and UKIP flags visible. This one felt like it was roughly the same number but with more football fans. I think this shows the FLA/DFLA is pretty much over, but that's largely because of Yaxley-Lennon's success in re-establishing himself as a leader of a street movement. When he's next in court I would expect there to be similar numbers as were out on Saturday outside, on a week day, and the next thing he calls on a weekend will definitely be bigger.
> 
> I think it's important for anti-fascists to remember that while Saturday's showing was fairly solid (by the AFN, Women's Strike and FLAF in particular), it will not be enough to get a comparable result against anything Yaxley-Lennon organises or backs in central London if the summer is anything to go by.



Different demos require different tactics IMO . I would seriously doubt whether all aspects Saturday could be repeated against a Y-L backed demo. If anti fascism is just about reacting to far right /alt right marches then it's just going to be stuck in that cycle . We need to start showing by example on our estates and communities that there is an alternative to their narrative by initiatives that forge working class unity and benefit local w/class communities . It's a long march and weekend antifascism isn't the answer .


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Different demos require different tactics IMO . I would seriously doubt whether all aspects Saturday could be repeated against a Y-L backed demo. If anti fascism is just about reacting to far right /alt right marches then it's just going to be stuck in that cycle . We need to start showing by example on our estates and communities that there is an alternative to their narrative by initiatives that forge working class unity and benefit local w/class communities . It's a long march and weekend antifascism isn't the answer .



FLAF clearly think weekend anti fascism is part of the answer no?


----------



## likesfish (Oct 15, 2018)

They were using weapons straight out the factory ordered under us army export licenses

WEAPONS OF THE ISLAMIC STATE | Conflict Armament Research
 tbf they managed to loot massive quantities of weapons off the iraqi  army including tanks and armored humvees who lived up to their martial history of losing tanks to light infantry


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2018)

Wrong thread?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 16, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> FLAF clearly think weekend anti fascism is part of the answer no?


As an arrow in the sling yes , time place etc but its also about this 





> Thanks for that, I was with FLAF yesterday, but the other points you make in relation to how we appeal to those sections of the class that are being misled by the DFLA are valid ones. Actions that are about solidarity rather than charity in our own communities is a starting point. There's been some brilliant work done by Hibs fans in Edinburgh's working class schemes that is grassroots, no public funds involved, boxing clubs, summer football training, an independent foodbank collection at Christmas that is distributed directly to families and community centres that need it - no charity status applied for nor wanted. They've also got an ethical stand about which other type of organisations they'll work with. They've been doing it for 3 years now


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> FLAF clearly think weekend anti fascism is part of the answer no?


Not quite sure what this means?


----------



## jimmer (Oct 16, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Different demos require different tactics IMO . I would seriously doubt whether all aspects Saturday could be repeated against a Y-L backed demo. If anti fascism is just about reacting to far right /alt right marches then it's just going to be stuck in that cycle . We need to start showing by example on our estates and communities that there is an alternative to their narrative by initiatives that forge working class unity and benefit local w/class communities . It's a long march and weekend antifascism isn't the answer .


'Weekend anti-fascism' isn't the solution, but it's a sticking plaster which can serve to maintain the political space needed to develop long-term solutions. We can't show an example in our communities (and I would add workplaces) if the far-right is capable of shutting us down, because they will.


----------



## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

jimmer said:


> 'Weekend anti-fascism' isn't the solution, but it's a sticking plaster which can serve to maintain the political space needed to develop long-term solutions. We can't show an example in our communities (and I would add workplaces) if the far-right is capable of shutting us down, because they will.


People involved in FLAf live work and socialise in many of the same places as the likes of the DFLA etc. They/we are not weekend anti fascists, we are living the struggle on a daily if not hourly basis.


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## Red Sky (Oct 17, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> People involved in FLAf live work and socialise in many of the same places as the likes of the DFLA etc. They/we are not weekend anti fascists, we are living the struggle on a daily if not hourly basis.





The Flying Pig said:


> Not quite sure what this means?



It means that FLAF mobilised at the weekend.  Specifically that they felt it was worth mobilising for a set piece counter demo.  

I don't think there are many people involved in anti fascism who don't see it as one aspect of a larger thing. I've always likened it to holding the ring for the Left.


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## Red Sky (Oct 17, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> As an arrow in the sling yes , time place etc but its also about this



Not an archer then?


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## mx wcfc (Oct 17, 2018)

FFS.

West Ham suspend coach who went on Democratic Football Lads Alliance march


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## cantsin (Oct 17, 2018)

mx wcfc said:


> FFS.
> 
> West Ham suspend coach who went on Democratic Football Lads Alliance march



will admit, can't get enthused about this bloke ( ex ICF apparently) getting chucked out of his job just for attending


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## mx wcfc (Oct 17, 2018)

In case it wasn't clear, I was remarking at the idiocy of someone in a job like that publicising the fact that he was on the demo.  If he's ex-ICF that does explain it.  "Kick it out" has to be reality not just a slogan.  Clubs like West Ham should be a bit more careful who they employ in the first place.  We are told (sometimes) that there are good working class football fans in the DFLA who just haven't caught on that it's a violent, racist, Islamophobic organisation.  I could accept that in it's early days possibly, but not now.


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## The39thStep (Oct 18, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Not an archer then?


Avid fan


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## The39thStep (Oct 18, 2018)

cantsin said:


> will admit, can't get enthused about this bloke ( ex ICF apparently) getting chucked out of his job just for attending


Me too tbh 
Heres the FLAF statement and discussion  
Theres a fairly sensible discussion on it on this West Ham twitter page ExWHUemployee (@ExWHUemployee) on Twitter


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## Dom Traynor (Oct 19, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Avid fan



Raises finger 

Wait. 

Raises finger 

Wait 

Finishes drink.


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## 19force8 (Oct 20, 2018)

EDIT:

Whoops, already covered on the EDL thread


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## BCBlues (Oct 20, 2018)

19force8 said:


> DFLA highly skilled formation marching on display today in Manchester:


Pmsl. I remember Wrexham coming to Chelsea once and the game was so crap I counted their away following. It was 39 and from what I can deduce it's still more than this shower.


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## editor (Jun 13, 2020)

Just to update everyone









						Far-right protesters in violent clashes with police at London demonstration
					

Footage online shows bottles and cans being forcefully hurled at officers, while some witnesses claim smoke canisters were also lobbed.




					metro.co.uk


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