# Anybody who actually has a mobile phone with Ubuntu OS, please?



## gorski (Oct 18, 2016)

Me wanna get away from corporate snoopers etc. So... Anyone here who actually has one, please? As in daily use and all that, since the previews one can find are frequently "on quick inspection we thought that..."









PRO 6 - Summary - Meizu






Where to buy in the UK, if at all possible?

I tried talking to Meizu but no response and from what I can find, they slam you with customs duties on top of the price, after all... They all seem to be shipped from China, namely... Unless someone knows a dealer in the UK/EU? I tried whilst in Italy but - nada, no luck...

So, actual experience, anyone?


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## DrRingDing (Oct 18, 2016)

Ubuntu are corporate snoopers...

Richard Stallman calls Ubuntu “spyware” because it tracks searches

Although they claim to be switching off the snooping now. Do you trust that?


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## gorski (Oct 18, 2016)

That was a very old thingy connected with Amazon (search), from memory and it has been given up, AFAIK....


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## DrRingDing (Oct 18, 2016)

Your phone is an open wound. It's utter poison from the hardware to being surveilled in many ways.

Install Ubuntu cos you like Linux. 

If you wish not to be snooped on, best go find a cave to live in.


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## gorski (Oct 18, 2016)

You can leave the patronising shit for your cave, thanx!

I know a lot about it, easy to find online, read quite a bit. I have no problem in state's ability to track one down if one is a terrorist etc.

This, however, is not like that... Android is way OTT in every respect, as is iOS or Winblows...

And no, "installing Ubuntu on a phone" is not "just like that, easy-peasy" unless you are a skilled developer...


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## DrRingDing (Oct 18, 2016)

But it's not just terrorists is it? Whatever they are.


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## DrRingDing (Oct 18, 2016)

Who said it'd be "easy peasy"?


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## editor (Oct 18, 2016)

gorski said:


> Me wanna get away from corporate snoopers etc. So... Anyone here who actually has one, please? As in daily use and all that, since the previews one can find are frequently "on quick inspection we thought that..."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No experience, but this may be of interest:

A top Meizu phone can't hide Ubuntu's flaws


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## editor (Oct 18, 2016)

Alternatively you could just get an Android phone with a PAYG SIM (so no contract or names needed) and use Orwall, Orbot and Orweb.



> These three programs do not add up to a silver bullet of perfect privacy—because a silver bullet doesn't exist. There is no such thing as 100 percent security, and anyone who promises you an “NSA-proof” computer program is a snake-oil salesman.
> 
> Using these programs is a start, however, to flipping your phone from soft target to hardened privacy tool.



How to anonymize all of your apps on Android


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## DrRingDing (Oct 18, 2016)

That phone has the same spec as my work laptop (ram & ssd).


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## editor (Oct 18, 2016)

DrRingDing said:


> That phone has the same spec as my work laptop (ram & ssd).


Your laptop is probably faster.


> The Meizu Pro 5 Ubuntu Edition has the look of a flagship, but a lack of apps and sluggish software makes it almost impossible to recommend to all but the biggest Linux fan, especially when there's an Android version.


 Meizu Pro 5 Ubuntu Edition review


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## gorski (Oct 18, 2016)

Not just small fry terrorists, sure but also state terrorists (Obama is running the biggest one at the mo) - I wish they started following the criminals in banking and financier institutions of all sorts, yeah... The corporate cunts should be followed, for sure, and not just for industrial espionage reasons, so the US corps get an upper hand, even against their 'allies', non...

Overall, I feel that (Ubuntu) concept is way closer to what I think mobile telephony ought to be. Plenty of power, now it's about using/controlling it... Some 10 years ago one could only dream of (something close to) Star Trek tech in your pocket - but now... 

Now, can they actually pull it off??? We'll see... I'd support them, even for a 'lagging price', at times...


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## gorski (Oct 18, 2016)

Editor, I saw all of those reviews, quite a while back, but most critics used it only for a while, seemed a bit conservative and "used to 'Droid" a bit too much, it seemed to me...


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## sim667 (Oct 18, 2016)

editor said:


> Alternatively you could just get an Android phone with a PAYG SIM (so no contract or names needed) and use Orwall, Orbot and Orweb.



I've never found anyone who'll sell me a payg without a name and address and proof of those.


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## Throbbing Angel (Oct 18, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I've never found anyone who'll sell me a payg without a name and address and proof of those.



Try Poundland - '3' PAYG sims are 75p for some reason   I assume you can spoof the details in any registration bollocks you may need to go through.

In fact, I am sure you can buy lots of PAYG sims without giving details - registering them is the hard but I reckon.  Keep it cash only, obvs.


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## editor (Oct 18, 2016)

sim667 said:


> I've never found anyone who'll sell me a payg without a name and address and proof of those.


Get thee to the market stalls!


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## rubbershoes (Oct 18, 2016)

gorski said:


> Not just small fry terrorists, sure but also state terrorists (Obama is running the biggest one at the mo) - I wish they started following the criminals in banking and financier institutions of all sorts, yeah... The corporate cunts should be followed, for sure, and not just for industrial espionage reasons, so the US corps get an upper hand, even against their 'allies', non...
> 
> Overall, I feel that (Ubuntu) concept is way closer to what I think mobile telephony ought to be. Plenty of power, now it's about using/controlling it... Some 10 years ago one could only dream of (something close to) Star Trek tech in your pocket - but now...
> 
> Now, can they actually pull it off??? We'll see... I'd support them, even for a 'lagging price', at times...



Obama doesn't care if you want to look at porn on your phone


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## gorski (Oct 19, 2016)

Sure he does - anything would do to frame somebody who dares going against the stream... Even frame one for not only a rape but a double rape, as in at the same time, manage a trois rape, even though he is of slender build, he was unarmed etc. etc. JEEZUSSSSS!!!!

It is not unheard of to have political trials in the USofA, you know. I used to volunteer for Amnesty and they have loads of files with such prisoners in the US... Political prisoners!

Also, in other countries they control.... One such civil society action is going on right now, to liberate one such activist...

But if I mention a "trigger word" on the web, telephone conversation etc. - I am immediately going to be "noted" somewhere and then processed and then... whatever... One can't even be sarcastic these days without risking some kind of "scrutiny", FCOL...

And that's just one such aspect of Orwellian/Huxleyan nightmare we are waking up to these days...


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## elbows (Oct 19, 2016)

I dont see what Ubuntu has to do with preventing that sort of thing at all. It wont stop any tracking that is done at various levels of the mobile network, for example. You might also stick out like a sore thumb by using an obscure device.


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## gorski (Oct 19, 2016)

They can track me if I am that interesting...

However, I would trust Linux community more either with the kernel/GUI (OS) itself or Open Source apps for encryption of all traffic, not being way too nosy etc. etc.


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## fuck seals (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> They can track me if I am that interesting...
> 
> .



You're not, trust me.

  Your network  provider will be the weak link in slurping your filthy nefarious activities, anyway, and no amount of Linux - arousal or KYC skipping will address that.


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> They can track me if I am that interesting...
> 
> However, I would trust Linux community more either with the kernel/GUI (OS) itself or Open Source apps for encryption of all traffic, not being way too nosy etc. etc.


You want to encrypt all traffic?  I'm not really sure what that means.  Do you want the weather from the BBC website encrypted, or your IP anonymised, or what? 

Since you've gone into this in detail, would you mind explaining the privacy concerns with running CyanogenMod or any of the other Open Source builds from the likes of XDA?  Your choice of apps is down to you and who you trust, most obviously all Google services are problematic but CM can run without them.  What are the privacy concerns with a vanilla CM install with no Google services?


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## gorski (Oct 19, 2016)

No, not everything... Just want my negative liberty actually respected!!!

Telephone conversations, audio-visual conversation, chats, emails, mail - yes, I would like them encrypted and it is possible! Not accessible to the state and other organisations by default, not without a warrant and not easily...


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> No, not everything... Just want my negative liberty actually respected!!!
> 
> Telephone conversations, audio-visual conversation, chats, emails, mail - yes, I would like them encrypted and it is possible! Not accessible to the state and other organisations by default, not without a warrant and not easily...


AIUI, as well as Blackberry there are Android apps to encrypt phone conversations end to end, but not to any other phone, only to phones running the same software.  

The same is true of everything else, isn't it? Each of the communications channels you want to be secure can be, on Android, but doing so relies on the other end running encryption too.  As pointed out above, there are tools to pass everything internet based through Tor, which may be more secure or it may just be more interesting to the malign watchers you're keen to avoid.

Of course, you'd have to place your trust in both the software and your ability to read and understand the source code.

How does using Ubuntu change that?  Except that the pool of both software and users is much smaller. What is it that's inherent in the Android kernel that causes privacy concerns that Ubuntu resolves?


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## crossthebreeze (Oct 19, 2016)

They are a bit pricey (but built to last longer than most phones/be repaired modularly), but have you looked into Fairphone ?  I think the Fairphone 1 was linux based.  Fairphone 2 runs Android 5.1 out of the box, but they have also developed an alternative open source version of Android (with no Google Mobile Services) - and I think Ubuntu can be run on it too (but is not officially supported).  I know someone who has one with open source Android, and it seems to work well.

Also, you can get PAYG sims eg in the UK giffgaff (ask anyone who already uses them -they get airtime credit if a sim they give out is registered, and quite a few people with shops and stalls give them out), register it online (you'll need to give a name and probably a real address (ie one that exists), but no proof asked for), and pay with giffgaff or o2 top up vouchers.  Lebara mobile you can top up with vouchers and don't have to register your details.
Or go with an "ethical" network provider like the phone co-op (checking their privacy policy first of course) and hope they'll stand up for you if "they" come for you.

Other than that, as others have said, encyption apps and the like - but they only work if you are talking to others with the same app - and tor and vpns.  But the less mainstream your phone set up, the greater use of encryption and tor, the more your phone use will stick out from the crowd.


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## mauvais (Oct 19, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Or go with an "ethical" network provider like the phone co-op (checking their privacy policy first of course) and hope they'll stand up for you if "they" come for you.


Ethics of The Co-Op aside, there is no such thing, no way out. They're just an MVNO, a thin front for EE. So when the state comes knocking, it'll be on EE's door.


crossthebreeze said:


> But the less mainstream your phone set up, the greater use of encryption and tor, the more your phone use will stick out from the crowd.


This is a good point though, be it browser signature or traffic types or how you pay for all of this, you start to become not just odd but unique, and uniquely identifiable, as well as stepping into areas and patterns that are of actual interest to the state rather than a thrilling theory. The kind of way actual terrorists operate, for example.


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## two sheds (Oct 19, 2016)

This thing about needing encryption for you *and* the person you're talking to is rubbish. Then you've also got the chance that the people you're talking to/e-mailing dob you in, which is hardly secure.

You want to run encryption from your side to people who aren't running encryption from their side. Then you know what they're saying but even they don't know what you've said.


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## mauvais (Oct 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> This thing about needing encryption for you *and* the person you're talking to is rubbish. Then you've also got the chance that the people you're talking to/e-mailing dob you in, which is hardly secure.
> 
> You want to run encryption from your side to people who aren't running encryption from their side. Then you know what they're saying but even they don't know what you've said.


The trouble with this is that the person you're talking at is likely to consider you to be deeply dubious. An algorithm such as ROT52 allows you to encrypt your messages in a way such that the output is human-comprehensible and therefore doesn't raise anyone's suspicions.


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 19, 2016)

newbie said:


> What is it that's inherent in the Android kernel that causes privacy concerns that Ubuntu resolves?



Aren't _most_ Android versions easily rooted?


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## editor (Oct 19, 2016)

elbows said:


> You might also stick out like a sore thumb by using an obscure device.


It's like when a lively new poster arrives here and they're using proxies to post. Instant eyebrow raiser.


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## mauvais (Oct 19, 2016)

mwgdrwg said:


> Aren't _most_ Android versions easily rooted?


That's not a property of the OS, that's a property of the device it's run on, deliberately to a fair extent.

But I'm not sure what you're really asking. Are most Android versions easily rooted by a third party attacker? Not really, no, although there have been some whopping great big security failures like Quadrooter.


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## editor (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> No, not everything... Just want my negative liberty actually respected!!!
> 
> Telephone conversations, audio-visual conversation, chats, emails, mail - yes, I would like them encrypted and it is possible! Not accessible to the state and other organisations by default, not without a warrant and not easily...


If you're that convinced that what you have to say may be of great interest to the State, then you've just flagged yourself up a treat here


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 19, 2016)

editor said:


> It's like when a lively new poster arrives here and they're using proxies to post. Instant eyebrow raiser.



I know what you and crossthebreeze are saying. Are the choices now simply as follows....

1. Use Tor and highlight yourself on the list as a person of interest
2. Be compliant and don't post anything online that will get you put on the list as a person of interested, or even worse, arrested.

What do people think?

I worry tbh.


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 19, 2016)

mauvais said:


> That's not a property of the OS, that's a property of the device it's run on, deliberately to a fair extent.
> 
> But I'm not sure what you're really asking. Are most Android versions easily rooted by a third party attacker? Not really, no, although there have been some whopping great big security failures like Quadrooter.



I'm asking this....if the authorities wanted to get into an Android phone it would be easy (depending on the device). Is it harder on an ubuntu touch device?


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## mauvais (Oct 19, 2016)

mwgdrwg said:


> I'm asking this....if the authorities wanted to get into an Android phone it would be easy (depending on the device). Is it harder on an ubuntu touch device?


Again it's a property of the hardware and firmware (bootloader). Chances are, probably not - probably just the same as Android. You would need a device specifically designed for security.

Also root access isn't necessarily the be all and end all of compromising data on a device.


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## two sheds (Oct 19, 2016)

mauvais said:


> The trouble with this is that the person you're talking at is likely to consider you to be deeply dubious. An algorithm such as ROT52 allows you to encrypt your messages in a way such that the output is human-comprehensible and therefore doesn't raise anyone's suspicions.



Been banned .


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## mwgdrwg (Oct 19, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Again it's a property of the hardware and firmware (bootloader). Chances are, probably not - probably just the same as Android. You would need a device specifically designed for security.
> 
> Also root access isn't necessarily the be all and end all of compromising data on a device.



Yeah, "probably not" is what I thought. Unless there is a secure Ubuntu device?

I know there are a few security focused Android devices like Blackphone, Samsung's Knox, and BlackBerry's Android phones etc.


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Been banned .



[Kryptology Information Bureau Organization]

I wonder if k*bo still greps the internet daily?

/offtopic


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## gorski (Oct 19, 2016)

AFAIK, _Paranoid Android_ is the only version of Droid that has been comprehensively, systematically cleaned up of corporate rubbish.

Ubuntu is O.S. and I would trust those guys a lot more, since many are watching and checking, contributing, than Google, M$, Apple etc. closed source code.

I don't care if they (gov, corps or individuals) are interested, so long as they can't get into my conversations on a whim.

And whomever doesn't know and/or care about what achievement "negative rights" were - condolences!

Imagine tomorrow they ask you to give up your positive or solidarity rights, from whatever the "ground" they wanna try to pull that one off...


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## mauvais (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> Ubuntu is O.S. and I would trust those guys a lot more, since many are watching and checking, contributing, than Google, M$, Apple etc. closed source code.


Android is open source. Not the Google apps on top.

And 'M$' and 'Winblows' in the same thread - the 90s are back!


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> AFAIK, _Paranoid Android_ is the only version of Droid that has been comprehensively, systematically cleaned up of corporate rubbish.



I've chosen to to put Pico Google services on this phone, but that's the only 'corporate rubbish' I'm aware of (other than apps I've chosen to use).  What else is there in a CM build that you'd describe that way?

I still don't understand what you think is wrong with the existing Android open source community.  There are crowdsourced builds for most hardware, many of which have open kernels. Most of what they contain in the way of apps and utilities are open source, you can remove anything you don't want.

The user base is huge, and enthusiastic. Here's some instructions for fangling your own Android kernel
[ULTIMATE GUIDE][Noob Friendly]Compile your own android kernel from source

and here's some for reverse engineering closed source APKs.
[UTIL][Oct 18 2016] Apktool v2.2.1 - a tool for reverse engineering apk files

and so on. I really don't get why you want an OS that hasn't much in the way of compatible hardware or a significant user base.


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## two sheds (Oct 19, 2016)

newbie said:


> [Kryptology Information Bureau Organization]
> 
> I wonder if k*bo still greps the internet daily?
> 
> /offtopic



Hadn't come across it before 

Here though we need something like an Irreversible Term Code that randomly assigns grammatically equivalent words to make it indistinguishable from human speech to sniffers, but which can't be reassigned by the receiver.


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## existentialist (Oct 19, 2016)

mwgdrwg said:


> I know what you and crossthebreeze are saying. Are the choices now simply as follows....
> 
> 1. Use Tor and highlight yourself on the list as a person of interest
> 2. Be compliant and don't post anything online that will get you put on the list as a person of interested, or even worse, arrested.
> ...


What is called "traffic analysis" is the big prize in intercepting communications. A lot of the cribs the Bletchley Park lot got came from knowing that a particular station would make a broadcast at specific times of day, which offered clues as to their content, and there's a lot that can be inferred from the patterns of traffic to and from any device, without necessarily being able to read the content.

So the answer to your question is that you establish traffic patterns which are as unexceptionable as possible, then your covert data is trickled through in such a way as not to arouse interest. In a way, I suppose it's a communications version of steganography.

Doing it really well is very comms-inefficient - your precious signal has to be accompanied by a lot of noise - and very hard work to maintain, but is ultimately the only way you're going to stand a chance of being untraceable.

Regular git updates to a bitbucket type account might be a good way to do it asynchronously, or posting stuff in alt.binaries.*, but even that is going to tend to stick out a little if they're already interested in you.


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2016)

two sheds said:


> Hadn't come across it before
> 
> Here though we need something like an Irreversible Term Code that randomly assigns grammatically equivalent words to make it indistinguishable from human speech to sniffers, but which can't be reassigned by the receiver.


once upon a time, whenever he was mentioned on Usenet or anywhere else kib* would turn up, as though by magic.  Became a legend, of sufficient power that his name should never be spelt out in full.

I've no idea if the acronym was related, but I'm guessing it was intentional.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> Sure he does - anything would do to frame somebody who dares going against the stream... Even frame one for not only a rape but a double rape, as in at the same time, manage a trois rape, even though he is of slender build, he was unarmed etc. etc. JEEZUSSSSS!!!!
> 
> It is not unheard of to have political trials in the USofA, you know. I used to volunteer for Amnesty and they have loads of files with such prisoners in the US... Political prisoners!
> 
> ...


A tinfoil hat would be a lot cheaper for you than a phone.


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## gorski (Oct 19, 2016)

Yeah, _Paranoid Android_ doesn't need to exist... for a reason, sure... I've spoken to one of the coders and that is why I am saying what I am saying (cleansing needed before one puts in Google apps, never mind the creepy stuff after that). Besides, one can easily find these:

The leader of the Android Open Source Project quits as he raises questions about the limitations of Google's open-source phone efforts inside the proprietary world of mobile handset hardware vendors.

Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary

Is Android the most closed open source project? | ExtremeTech

I am not a coder, so not possible for me to do all that, "as I please", just like most people aren't educated enough to do it, esp. "easily". Stop bragging, will ya! 

And even if you root your device and get more control over the apps - it is still not "simple" to deal with all the intrusion, all the data gathering and sending etc. Google, M$, what's the big difference? Did the passage of time erase their interests somehow and we should fashionably 'simply forget about it, 'get over it' and whatnot? Jeezus!

Therefore, I would rather go with an OS that is not corporate and really O.S. Of course, kernel that is not NSA "enhanced" and all that... Then, 'less users' is fine by me...


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## gorski (Oct 19, 2016)

Bees, brains gone with ears, too?


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## mauvais (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> The leader of the Android Open Source Project quits as he raises questions about the limitations of Google's open-source phone efforts inside the proprietary world of mobile handset hardware vendors.
> 
> Google’s iron grip on Android: Controlling open source by any means necessary
> 
> Is Android the most closed open source project? | ExtremeTech


None of these articles support the point that you're apparently trying to make.


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## gorski (Oct 19, 2016)

Have you actually studied the code in detail? If not, I'll go with _Paranoid Android_ lot, based on what I also read in those and many other articles, thanx...


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## mauvais (Oct 19, 2016)

Of course not. But I don't care. Have _you _studied the Ubuntu codebase?

All three of your articles say the same thing: Android without the closed source Google bits isn't very useful. Which is true.

But what _you're_ saying is that AOSP can't be trusted, because Google, and they don't support this in the slightest.


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## newbie (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> Yeah, _Paranoid Android_ doesn't need to exist... for a reason, sure... I've spoken to one of the coders and that is why I am saying what I am saying (cleansing needed before one puts in Google apps, never mind the creepy stuff after that).


cleaning on an AOSP build like CM on fully compatible hardware?  I'm doubtful, but if you say so...



> And even if you root your device and get more control over the apps - it is still not "simple" to deal with all the intrusion, all the data gathering and sending etc. Google, M$, what's the big difference? Did the passage of time erase their interests somehow and we should fashionably 'simply forget about it, 'get over it' and whatnot? Jeezus!



CM- AOSP based- comes with a built in privacy controllwer.  Netguard- open source- gives close control over what apps can use the internet, how and when.  Once they're set up they're dead simple.


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## elbows (Oct 19, 2016)

gorski said:


> No, not everything... Just want my negative liberty actually respected!!!
> 
> Telephone conversations, audio-visual conversation, chats, emails, mail - yes, I would like them encrypted and it is possible! Not accessible to the state and other organisations by default, not without a warrant and not easily...



I still dont understand how you think Ubuntu will give you all that. As others pointed out, encryption is required at both ends (and some bits in between) and so you cant get a device that magically makes your telephone conversations secure. You'll need to use the right services and the right apps and get the people you are communicating with to use the same services.

Nor, as far as I'm aware, does Ubuntu manage to eliminate all of the 'black boxes' that exist in one or more parts of the mobile stack. All their stuff can be opensource but there are still parts of a mobile that are closed and perform certain key functions on the mobile network. To truly get past that it's not enough to trust the OS provider, you also have to trust the hardware manufacturer, mobile chipset provider, the network operators, etc.

I just think the reality is more technically complex to pull off than you are hoping for, and the right approach requires more detailed consideration of what it is practical for you to achieve and what you really want/need. Because for many people I suspect the more appropriate balance of privacy/security is reached, or dismally failed, via their choice of services, apps and settings they use, more than the OS, hardware manufacturer etc.

Likewise when it comes to avoiding some of the stench of corporations, only so much can be done at present. Google have by far the largest interest in collecting data of all kinds, so they are the obvious one to avoid, and the likes of Apple have actually tried to exploit this in their marketing in recent years. Rather amusingly I suspect Apples own messaging & audio/video chat services are one of the most visible, consumer-friendly, end-to-end encrypted services around, and they were deliberately fostering an image with their 'public spat' with the FBI over unlocking a terrorists phone. Obviously there are reasons why some people are unlikely to embrace Apple the giant corporation as being an encrypted service provider they can trust, but I mention them only to illustrate that the security goalposts can move dramatically depending on what detail we are concentrating on, and that in some contexts Apples stuff is more practical and viable as a solution than the 'cleaner sounding' solutions from less overtly corporate entities.


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## elbows (Oct 19, 2016)

I guess I will provide the most extreme example possible in order to explain what I'm getting at when I waffle on about 'black boxes' and closed parts of the mobile stack, etc.

One of the Snowden-era 'revelations' concerned the ability for the microphone of a mobile to be activated nefariously. Placing to one side my inability to judge this claim with the benefit of full information, lets assume for a minute that such a 'feature' is true. In such a world, is it possible for me to choose a piece of mobile hardware that I can be confident lacks this 'feature'? I doubt it, no matter the OS, since I'd expect such a feature, if it exists, to be implemented on a lower level, beyond the reach of the OS.


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## mauvais (Oct 20, 2016)

I think that probably is true, within parameters, but I think on that count it would use a compromised app and/or a vulnerability at least partially in OS software.


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## newbie (Oct 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I think that probably is true, within parameters, but I think on that count it would use a compromised app and/or a vulnerability at least partially in OS software.


Theft tracking software like Prey relies on being able to remotely activate mic, camera & location services without revealing itself (at least to a non-tekkie thief). Cloaking that into some innocent looking recipe or dog grooming app would be trivial.

How would you build the capability to prevent those services working in a modern phone, where they are pretty central to the user experience?  Big red hardware switches is certainly a possibility, although a bit farfetched. Intrusive restrictions implemented at the OS level (eg password every time you want to take a photo or use the mic) would make the thing unusable, so what's left, granular privacy control of trusted apps?  I've got that, I can tell exactly which apps are allowed to use mic, camera & location services, and determine whether they can do so silently or require explicit tickbox permission every time.  I guess that could be bypassed by clever software, but I've no idea whether that would be harder in Ubuntu or Android versions of Linux. 

Prey- and all other privacy busting concerns except the physical phone falling into the hands of MI5- also relies on being able to communicate with the internet. I've opted to use Netguard to control that, other apps are available, but there is absolutely a question of trust involved, and I have no real certainty that it doesn't send everything I ever do to GCHQ or Putin. I have to rely on the crowd understanding open source software well enough to protect me, which is precisely what gorski believes mobile Ubuntu delivers and Android (with its massively bigger userbase and massively bigger development community) doesn't.


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## mauvais (Oct 20, 2016)

Granular privacy control without each-time approval is fine until one of those apps is compromised. Is it beyond the wit of the state to deliver a compromised app update, with or without complicity of the real author? Maybe, maybe not.

Then there's things like QuadRooter which is actually a chipset driver vulnerability that allows root access from userland, which renders everything else moot.


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## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

*Edward Snowden* ‏@Snowden Sep 21



> What is #Allo? A Google app that records every message you ever send and makes it available to police upon request.


Google backs off on previously announced Allo privacy feature



> When Allo was announced at Google’s I/O conference earlier this year, the messaging app was presented as a step forward for privacy. Alongside the end-to-end-encrypted Incognito Mode, the Allo team talked about bold new message retention practices, storing messages only transiently rather than indefinitely.But with the release of the app today, Google is backing off on some of those features.
> The version of Allo rolling out today will store all non-incognito messages by default — a clear change from Google’s earlier statements that the app would only store messages transiently and in non-identifiable form. The records will now persist until the user actively deletes them, giving Google default access to a full history of conversations in the app. Users can also avoid the logging by using Allo’s Incognito Mode, which is still fully end-to-end encrypted and unchanged from the initial announcement.
> 
> A CHANGE TO IMPROVE THE ALLO ASSISTANT
> ...


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 20, 2016)

Yeah, dodgy as fuck that one. Don't ever install it.


----------



## newbie (Oct 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Granular privacy control without each-time approval is fine until one of those apps is compromised. Is it beyond the wit of the state to deliver a compromised app update, with or without complicity of the real author? Maybe, maybe not.


of course, the discussion hasn't yet turned to virus and malware scanning software and so on, because that's not OS dependent. Bad user choices will override all security. 



> Then there's things like QuadRooter which is actually a chipset driver vulnerability that allows root access from userland, which renders everything else moot.



Happily my hardware isn't Qualcomm, although every different manufacturer will have different vulnerabilities. But the thread is about whether the Ubuntu variant of Linux presents greater security than the Android variant in preventing any and all vulnerabilities being exploited.


----------



## newbie (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> *Edward Snowden* ‏@Snowden Sep 21
> 
> Google backs off on previously announced Allo privacy feature



from my first post on this thread I said that installing any Google services automatically breaches privacy.  So don't. 

You're not making any sort of case that mobile Ubuntu has any advantages.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 20, 2016)

newbie said:


> of course, the discussion hasn't yet turned to virus and malware scanning software and so on, because that's not OS dependent. Bad user choices will override all security.
> 
> Happily my hardware isn't Qualcomm, although every different manufacturer will have different vulnerabilities. But the thread is about whether the Ubuntu variant of Linux presents greater security than the Android variant in preventing any and all vulnerabilities being exploited.


They're likely to be very similar underneath - similar kernel, possibly same drivers.

They've fixed QuadRooter. But that in itself brings up the problem of the ecosystem, like how quickly you can actually get your mitts on that fix. On Android, quite quickly if you're on their Nexus stuff, more slowly on OEM-modified images like Samsung, and who knows on Ubuntu.

And if you run Ubuntu on some cheap Chinese device that turns out to have some similar flaw, it's probably never getting fixed.


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

I suppose, one MUST inform oneself, on all levels of one's communication - IF one valuesone's privacy - then, make (relatively) informed choice(s)...



NSA files decoded: Edward Snowden's surveillance revelations explained

Best Alternatives to Tor: 12 Programs to Use Since NSA, Hackers Compromised Tor Project

EPIC - EPIC Online Guide to Practical Privacy Tools

Windows - Platforms - PRISM Break

*Inside the NSA's War on Internet Security*

Prying Eyes: Inside the NSA's War on Internet Security - SPIEGEL ONLINE



> Things first become troublesome at the fourth level. The presentation states that the NSA encounters "major" problems in its attempts to decrypt messages sent through heavily encrypted email service providers like Zoho or in monitoring users of the Tor network*, which was developed for surfing the web anonymously. Tor, otherwise known as The Onion Router, is free and open source software that allows users to surf the web through a network of more than 6,000 linked volunteer computers. The software automatically encrypts data in a way that ensures that no single computer in the network has all of a user's information. For surveillance experts, it becomes very difficult to trace the whereabouts of a person who visits a particular website or to attack a specific person while they are using Tor to surf the Web.
> 
> The NSA also has "major" problems with Truecrypt, a program for encrypting files on computers. Truecrypt's developers stopped their work on the program last May, prompting speculation about pressures from government agencies. A protocol called Off-the-Record (OTR) for encrypting instant messaging in an end-to-end encryption process also seems to cause the NSA major problems. Both are programs whose source code can be viewed, modified, shared and used by anyone. Experts agree it is far more difficult for intelligence agencies to manipulate open source software programs than many of the closed systems developed by companies like Apple and Microsoft. Since anyone can view free and open source software, it becomes difficult to insert secret back doors without it being noticed. Transcripts of intercepted chats using OTR encryption handed over to the intelligence agency by a partner in Prism -- an NSA program that accesses data from at least nine American internet companies such as Google, Facebook and Apple -- show that the NSA's efforts appear to have been thwarted in these cases: "No decrypt available for this OTR message." This shows that OTR at least sometimes makes communications impossible to read for the NSA.
> 
> ...



Anyone heard of cryptophone and Croat hacker Floricic (killed, possibly because of it?)?

Either way, it's our responsibility to protect ourselves, the best we can...


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

newbie said:


> from my first post on this thread I said that installing any Google services automatically breaches privacy.  So don't.



Don't share info, talking about issues? Jeezus...



newbie said:


> You're not making any sort of case that mobile Ubuntu has any advantages.



From what little I "know", I can say that OS makes a difference, talking to some of the coders who actually did the work, as I mentioned already.

After that, I would try to use the best info I have seen to make my devices as protected as I can.

What's "controversial" in it?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 20, 2016)

Is it fair to say with regards to privacy that corporate monitoring and aggravation of data is more wide spread and far reaching then government, but also easier to minimise if you set your mind to it. 

I assume I'm to boring to be watched by my government. "Big data" makes me mildly uncomfortable, but I do like the convince that modern technology brings, so I mostly live with it.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Oct 20, 2016)

Whenever I've tried using at TOR it's really slow. I wouldn't like to do all my browsing through it.


----------



## newbie (Oct 20, 2016)

mauvais said:


> And if you run Ubuntu on some cheap Chinese device that turns out to have some similar flaw, it's probably never getting fixed.


tbf nor is a cheap Chinese phone running Android.  I console myself with the thought that it's not me that's paranoid about the NSA/GCHQ reading my phone, because I don't use it for arranging drug deals and leave it at home every time I go out on a bank heist.


----------



## newbie (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> From what little I "know", I can say that OS makes a difference, talking to some of the coders who actually did the work, as I mentioned already.
> 
> After that, I would try to use the best info I have seen to make my devices as protected as I can.
> 
> What's "controversial" in it?



nothing, just that you've yet to post anything that shows the Ubuntu variant to have any advantages over Android.


> a combination of Tor, another anonymization service, the instant messaging system CSpace and a system for Internet telephony (voice over IP) called ZRTP. This type of combination results in a "near-total loss/lack of insight to target communications, presence," the NSA document states.


there you go, set that lot up and you'll be safe from all forms of communication.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 20, 2016)

The article just linked to says Tor has been compromised, although that was 2014 - is it ok again? Although I'm not sure I like sharing my IP address with randoms anyway.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 20, 2016)

newbie said:


> tbf nor is a cheap Chinese phone running Android


Yeah of course, but then the OP is considering buying a Chinese phone running Ubuntu, so...


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

Newbie, as I said, multiple times now, as opposed to you (and not just you in this thread), who seem not to have done any serious work in the area, I will go with the coders who have actually studied it seriously and who have actually made the effort towards a safer OS (Paranoid Android). Their insights are way more valuable to me than your cynicism, thanx.

Because, they have proved themselves, whereby you are just a wannabe who wants to seem terrifically competent...

And yes, I would like to support those who are not doing such crappy stuff and not support those who are.

Just how bad am I?

Btw, the video I posted states (from 36.50 - 39.15) that all your mobile phone security SW might be useless - unless one uses cryptophone and redphone!!! - if they (NSA) actually replace the infrastructure completely with their own... Also, certain parts of HW, BIOS etc. etc. Compromising it all!!! Grrrrr!!!!! Just watch it and scream!!!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 20, 2016)

You've made up your mind, you know best, everyone else is wrong. What's the point of this thread?


----------



## mauvais (Oct 20, 2016)

I did information assurance (IA) analysis on something like Cryptophone to see if it really was secure (it was, as far as we could tell). It was so boring that I've forgotten which product it actually was, or who it was for. Probably the government.


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

Bees, leave this thread, please, if you can not figure it out after all this. This is not for you, then...

Mauvais: JEEZUS! So boring to have privacy? Or what do you mean?

In case someone wants to know: Tron (hacker) - Wikipedia


----------



## existentialist (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> Bees, leave this thread, please, if you can not figure it out after all this. This is not for you, then...
> 
> Mauvais: JEEZUS! So boring to have privacy? Or what do you mean?
> 
> In case someone wants to know: Tron (hacker) - Wikipedia


I think the point people are trying to make is that the sort of security you seem to be looking for is not easy - in fact, it's rather boring - to implement and use, and that slapping Ubuntu on your phone is not some kind of universal security panacea, and will probably make the task of securing your phone even more complex.

TBH, if you are that concerned about government/NSA snooping, the least-hassle option is to dump your smartphone.


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

Not possible. Must be on call for family needs etc. Besides, that would sort nothing out! Computers and whatever else tech you might have in your house is vulnerable. Heck, you are phsyically vulnerable, since they can irradiate you while irradiating your stuff in order to "read it out"...

And what you are saying is not something I am trying to do. I am not "interesting" for NSA etc. I am not a Communist/Socialist revolutionary (violence and all that is not for me) but a Social-Democratic reformist (I see no revolutionary subject for a foreseeable future)... I have no technically profitable knowledge whatsoever - I couldn't code/hack for anything in the world, sorry... And so on and so forth... I am just a social scientist who wants to understand his world and then try to help co-create a better one.

So, principles of liberty/human rights are something I wanna see through, as much as I can help... I.e. I want to help - if I can - creating a world for my sons which will not be as bad as ours is! That is my main idea in all this!


----------



## existentialist (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> Not possible. Must be on call for family needs etc.


And there it is. Everything is a compromise. 30 years ago, you would not have had the option of being on call in this way; now, we have the technology, but it comes at a price. Part of that price is that you are prepared to, in effect, equip yourself with a mobile tracking device.

It's not even about the security/snooping thing - mobile phones have to be tracking devices in order to work. It just so happens that this provides a useful way to trace where a person of interest might be at any given time.

But you can't have the convenience without the price.



gorski said:


> And what you are saying is not something I am trying to do. I am not "interesting" for NSA etc.
> 
> I am not a Communist/Socialist revolutionary (violence and all is not for me) but a Social-Democratic reformist (I see no revolutionary subject for a foreseeable future)... I have no technically profitable knowledge whatsoever - I couldn't code/hack for anything in the world, sorry...
> 
> However, principles of liberty/human rights are something I wanna see through, as much as I can help... I.e. I want to help - if I can - creating a world for my sons which will not be as bad as ours is! That is my main idea in all this!


And simply putting Ubuntu on your phone is not going to make any difference to the world your sons inherit.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> Heck, you are phsyically vulnerable, since they can irradiate you while irradiating your stuff in order to "read it out"...


Tinfoil _definitely_ works for this.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> And what you are saying is not something I am trying to do. I am not "interesting" for NSA etc.


You are now that you've written this thread.

And IA is boring - it involves lots of formal testing of someone else's boring software, but also, yes, privacy is largely boring, because it gets in the way of pragmatism, information sharing, interoperability and time without offering much in the way of tangible personal value except when you specifically need it.


----------



## newbie (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> Newbie, as I said, multiple times now, as opposed to you (and not just you in this thread), who seem not to have done any serious work in the area, I will go with the coders who have actually studied it seriously and who have actually made the effort towards a safer OS (Paranoid Android). Their insights are way more valuable to me than your cynicism, thanx.
> 
> Because, they have proved themselves, whereby you are just a wannabe who wants to seem terrifically competent...
> 
> ...



you're not bad. I'm just interested. I've read around but I claim no competence.  I've been prodding you to tell me stuff, to make sense of why you think one version of Linux grafted from a desktop environment to mobile has advantages over one made specifically for mobile.  So far all you've come up with is you talked to some people who made a custom Android Rom that seems to do more or less what you want- so why not buy a phone on their qualified list and run it? Apart from their dreadful website, which is quite enough to put anyone off.

Although, I notice from the (rather sparse) Paranoid Android threads on XDA that there's more discussion on installing GAPPs than anything else.  So what's the point of _serious work_ if it's immediately blown apart by putting google services on the thing? 

But I don't want to put you off.  _principles of liberty/human rights_ are indeed important. Don't be deterred by the fact that I and almost everyone else on the planet recognises that using the networks is incompatible with privacy.  After all, if you've got Ubuntu on your desktop you're clearly completely immune from your ISP, the NSA, GCHQ and Google (among others) knowing anything about you, anything at all.  Your choice of desktop operating system gives you complete privacy, doesn't it?


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

M, your fist sentence is meaningless. Second one isn't, albeit the beginning is false until "except" - that is what I said, yes.

Bees, you're a moron. If you haven't seen Jacob's video - my word... Live in the darkness of Feudalism, why don't you...

Ex, second statement is not what I said - that is all you.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 20, 2016)

Just as an aside _Paranoid Android_ has to be one of the finest descriptive product names.


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

Newbie, had you seen the Jacob's video you would see I have never said that. Your conclusion only speaks of you and your intentions. Not of mine. He mentions which ones are genuine and do offer privacy and also why it is important to take care of it, so dragnet is not possible etc.

But hey, you have a better idea, go publish it...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> Bees, you're a moron. If you haven't seen Jacob's video - my word... Live in the darkness of Feudalism, why don't you...


You really are a colossal dick. 

Watch a video, SEE THE LIGHT.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 20, 2016)

Heh, I'm out.


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

No, don't see the video and still be "authoritative".   Shithead!

Thank you, m.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Oct 20, 2016)

have you heard of geolocation?

If you have two phones and use a £10 disposable phone but have a smartphone, android, IOS, etc in the vacinity you can still be tracked even if you don't use it and use the carphone warehouse device.

I don't understand what you want tbh. Installing ubuntu on a phone isn't going to disable your phone broadcasting...


----------



## existentialist (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> Ex, second statement is not what I said - that is all you.


Silly me, forgetting that this thread was all about you.

I was intrigued by the title of this thread. But since you seem determined to police it into oblivion, the content is rather less intriguing. I shall take care to make sure the door doesn't hit my arse on the way out.


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## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

No, dia, you don't.


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## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

Ex, it's about you. I explicitly said I am not worried about tracking but privacy of what I want to be private. Better reading should be advised to a few people here.

Moreover, I asked a specific Q no one can answer... but no matter...


----------



## newbie (Oct 20, 2016)

gorski said:


> Newbie, had you seen the Jacob's video you would see I have never said that. Your conclusion only speaks of you and your intentions. Not of mine. He mentions which ones are genuine and do offer privacy and also why it is important to take care of it, so dragnet is not possible etc.
> 
> But hey, you have a better idea, go publish it...


you really want me to spend an hour watching a vid to figure out what you're on about?  No, watching telly is not something i do willingly (except the footy, obv).  You precis it, or point to a source I can read.  Or don't, like others I'm rapidly losing interest.


----------



## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

Silver spoon feeding? I never had any interest... bye!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 20, 2016)

Yeah, god forbid people ask you to make an actual point.


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## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

I made it straight away and then repeated many times - that only speaks of you...


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Oct 20, 2016)

tbf i doubt the NSA  care about UCL boy.

Your human right reformist shtick is politically dead anyway. If you're going down, you're coming down with us.

Relax. Just have a few beers.


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## gorski (Oct 20, 2016)

Echo, echo, echo...

As for the rest, you really are a dipstick!


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Oct 20, 2016)

dipstick. i like that. 

what pubs do you go to gorski? will get you a beer if you can entertain me for 10 minutes with this combative high flying conspiracy tone.


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## gorski (Oct 21, 2016)

There's 10 hours of solid "entertainment" in the links I provided. See if this wakes you up. If not - you're at least brain dead. Of course, by definition, how are you to know it... unless I tell you on a jolly forum such as this one, where there are tons of yous pissing on your shoes pretending it's just good fun? 

As for conspiracies - ever heard of last few years of leaks from inside various US agencies?!? Court controversies? Civil liberties? International blunders, including spying on heads of state etc. etc.???

I know that it is a difficult subject to grasp, those pesky human rights, for us pigs - but hey, we need some 'entertainment'...

No pub in London serves Budvar, the original Czech king of beers, not the DE/US rubbish, so... 

P.S. Perhaps the Czech restaurant in the centre? Not been there for a decade or so...


----------



## elbows (Oct 21, 2016)

Thats not the only angle. I take the issues seriously, its just you've utterly failed to demonstrate that you are fit for duty on this particular front-line, do you think you are equipped to properly fight this highly technical battle? The most you are likely to end up with is a completely false sense of security. Or being monitored by the Chinese instead


----------



## joustmaster (Oct 21, 2016)

Solar freakin roadways


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 21, 2016)

joustmaster said:


> Solar freakin roadways


Yep


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> There's 10 hours of solid "entertainment" in the links I provided. See if this wakes you up. If not - you're at least brain dead. Of course, by definition, how are you to know it... unless I tell you on a jolly forum such as this one, where there are tons of yous pissing on your shoes pretending it's just good fun?
> 
> As for conspiracies - ever heard of last few years of leaks from inside various US agencies?!? Court controversies? Civil liberties? International blunders, including spying on heads of state etc. etc.???
> 
> ...


It's the posts like this that make people think you're a twat


----------



## mwgdrwg (Oct 21, 2016)

This has deteriorated rather quickly.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Oct 21, 2016)

Interesting talk here exploring (crudely paraphrasing) the futility of seeking application and OS-level security / privacy in a world of factory-compromised hardware.


----------



## keybored (Oct 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Anyone heard of cryptophone and *Croat* hacker Floricic



Oh no he wasn't...


----------



## newbie (Oct 21, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Interesting talk here about (crudely paraphrasing) the futility of seeking application and OS-level security / privacy in a world of factory-compromised hardware.



This is a text version of the same thing, for those of us who don't like telly.  Fair enough, a 256k Bios/UEFI chip can be compromised either by the vendor or by a rogue flash update with all sorts of possible outcomes. There's another, shorter and less technical, view of the vulnerability here.



> Boot Guard _does_ help secure the UEFI firmware and protect against malware that infects the boot process. Intel and PC OEMs aren’t out to crush free software and prevent open hardware. The truth is more mundane—Intel and hardware manufacturers prioritize tighter security for the masses over the proprietary firmware concerns of a few.



This is a similar story about Samsung phones.

It's not clear to me whether fully encrypting the user files prevents these hardware based backdoor privacy threats from being effective.  Anyone know?  (Assuming the key isn't left laying around in plain text.)

Mind, I have a tickbox on my phone "Encrypt Phone" which I'm far too scared to use.  Mess up slightly and the data is gone for good. 

IMO it always comes down to the tradeoff between trust, risk and usability.  Using hardware, software or networks cannot be 100% safe.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Oct 21, 2016)

Well, as Ms Rutkowska says ...


> Present-day computer and network security starts with the assumption that there is a domain that we can trust. For example: if we encrypt data for transport over the internet, we generally assume the computer that’s doing the encrypting is not compromised and that there’s some other “endpoint” at which it can be safely decrypted. To trust what a program is doing assumes not only trust in that program itself, but also in the underlying operating system. The program’s view of the world is limited by what the operating system tells it. It must trust the operating system to not show the memory contents of what it is working on to anyone else. The operating system in turn depends on the underlying hardware and ﬁrmware for its operation and view of the world


 source above.

What she's exploring (see below for the companion paper to the one you linked) is a concept in which you encrypt user files by all means, but regain control of those end-points by running trusted firmware (hand-crafted on an ancient 486 maybe) from a 'trusted stick', rather than relying on opaque modern corporate firmware.

Of course you can't actually do that on modern x86 boxes, but she makes a reasonable case that you don't have to do totally unfeasible hardware hacking to get to that point.

http://blog.invisiblethings.org/papers/2015/state_harmful.pdf


----------



## two sheds (Oct 21, 2016)

I was a tad concerned about encrypting my hard disk with ubuntu but works fine so touch wood far


----------



## gorski (Oct 21, 2016)

Some here are way beyond reason. Go to pub and wank each other off, compare who's bigger and whatever else kids do... The single link to Jacob's speech here drowns your cacophony of immaturity, obstinacy and stupidity very, very conclusively!!! May you die with your grotesque grimaces while trying to "protest" the stories that deserve "tinfoil hats"...

Some others, on the other hand, are not only adult, on the topic and competent but also good willed and I thank you sincerely! They have pointed to the obvious.

 Now, anyone here actually tried Ubuntu phone?


----------



## rubbershoes (Oct 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> No pub in London serves Budvar, the original Czech king of beers, not the DE/US rubbish, so...
> 
> .



When I worked in London, the bar next to our office sold Budvar.  Or maybe that's what they wanted me to think....


----------



## gorski (Oct 21, 2016)

Which one is that?


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> No pub in London serves Budvar, the original Czech king of beers, not the DE/US rubbish, so...


Indo in Whitechapel does, for starters. I'm sure there are others.


----------



## newbie (Oct 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Some here are way beyond reason. Go to pub and wank each other off, compare who's bigger and whatever else kids do... The single link to Jacob's speech here drowns your cacophony of immaturity, obstinacy and stupidity very, very conclusively!!! M*ay you die with your grotesque grimaces* while trying to "protest" the stories that deserve "tinfoil hats"...
> 
> Some others, on the other hand, are not only adult, on the topic and competent but also good willed and I thank you sincerely! They have pointed to the obvious.
> 
> Now, anyone here actually tried Ubuntu phone?


I've no idea what your problem is but a new phone (or a spliff- yes, I saw your weed thread) isn't going to resolve it.




gorski said:


> However, I would trust Linux community more either with the kernel/GUI (OS) itself or Open Source apps for encryption of all traffic, not being way too nosy etc. etc.


While I and others question 'trust' you proclaim your faith.

Dirty COW explained: Get a moooo-ve on and patch Linux root hole
a ten year security hole in all Linux kernels   carry on trusting


----------



## rubbershoes (Oct 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Which one is that?



Pubs in London serving Budvar Original


----------



## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

Newbie, I don't need your patronising shit, so if you can't help yourself with it, go "help" somewhere else with your crappy attitude.

The phone, of course, could help, as I am using Linux for a while, so given info I have - it just might be the right thing for me...

And no, THAT Linux is not the same as Linux kernel with Java interpreter on top, written by a major corp living off...

Ach, never mind...

Btw, thanx for the link to Dirty Cow patch (I read about it but did not get the plug)!!! That kind of contribution I do dig!!! 

Rubber, thanx! We have 13 (13!!!!) of them serving Budvar! Spoilt for choice!  There's even one close to me!!! Cool!


----------



## newbie (Oct 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Newbie, I don't need your patronising shit,


but the rest of us need to be told to *die with your grotesque grimaces *do we?  



gorski said:


> And no, THAT Linux is not the same as Linux kernel with Java interpreter on top, written by a major corp living off...



no?  explain please, in detail, the difference.


----------



## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

That is the kind of obstinacy mentioned earlier I do not need, thanx a bunch...

So, that kinda grimace you can take away with you on your way to an elephant graveyard...


----------



## newbie (Oct 22, 2016)

you mean you don't know the difference. You've decided to place your trust in a "_major corp living off..._" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and lob insults around because no-one else on the thread has any clue what you're on about or why.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 22, 2016)

newbie said:


> but the rest of us need to be told to *die with your grotesque grimaces *do we?
> 
> 
> 
> no?  explain please, in detail, the difference.


Save yourself the bother. This is one of those threads where the question in the OP is really just a statement, albeit a vague and confused one. You're only going to get abuse if you try to tell the poster anything he doesn't want to hear.


----------



## newbie (Oct 22, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Save yourself the bother. This is one of those threads where the question in the OP is really just a statement, albeit a vague and confused one. You're only going to get abuse if you try to tell the poster anything he doesn't want to hear.


you're obviously right, I'm just putting off doing some plumbing I don't want to do but know I have to....


----------



## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

Abuse (and in a group) is coming from the regular suspects here, not from me. I am defending myself from BS, while thanking the same suspects if they actually help...

However, when I try to help there is no "thank you", just more abuse vaguely wrapped in "we don't like to watch videos"... Well, screw you, too!!! Because, there were links here that were no videos, talking about the same important issues, which some here would like to wrap in tinfoil, while making humongous arses of themselves because these things they choose to ignore were actually proven to exist but hey... it's only me, yeah...  Dickheads! And no, those stupid contradictions have nothing to do with me, they are all yours...

Nothing new, btw, "PC geeks" especially the Linux kind, are full of kiddie stuff of this kind, "mine is bigger", "you're a noob" and whatnot, searching desperately for some kind of "superiority" - which I certainly do not dispute, as I am from Humanities and have never stated I am an expert, so keep on banging on the open door, heroically  attacking somebody who never was a threat... Hilarious!!!   

Now, if the herd of wannabies is finally at peace with their wounded pride of intense superiority seeking, can we go back to the question...

Anyone WHO ACTUALLY HAS UBUNTU phone here?!?


----------



## mauvais (Oct 22, 2016)

Android doesn't have a Java interpreter. Never has. Just thought I'd pop back in and mention that.


----------



## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

Btw, newbie, what exactly do you know of the dark places in Android? Have you done the studying, patching etc.? Because as I said, there is "Paranoid Android" out there and you claim it's for no reason, right?

What have you actually done on that front? Go, on "expert"... Show me you are not just another wannabie wanting to look bigger than life, attacking somebody who from the start said he is not an expert...

And not just you: anyone in this thread?!?


----------



## joustmaster (Oct 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Abuse (and in a group) is coming from the regular suspects here, not from me. I am defending myself from BS, while thanking the same suspects if they actually help...
> 
> However, when I try to help there is no "thank you", just more abuse vaguely wrapped in "we don't like to watch videos"... Well, screw you, too!!! Because, there were links here that were no videos, talking about the same important issues, which some here would like to wrap in tinfoil, while making humongous arses of themselves because these things they choose to ignore were actually proven to exist but hey... it's only me, yeah...  Dickheads! And no, those stupid contradictions have nothing to do with me, they are all yours...
> 
> ...


HONK HONK HONK
Like some sort of demented goose.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 22, 2016)

Well, I'm a professional Android specialising software engineer and I used to work for a company that specialises in national & cyber security.

So there's that, I suppose.


----------



## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Android doesn't have a Java interpreter. Never has. Just thought I'd pop back in and mention that.



Of course, Android has nothing to do with it whatsoever: Android, Java, and the tech behind Oracle v. Google (FAQ)


----------



## mauvais (Oct 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Of course, Android has nothing to do with it whatsoever: Android, Java, and the tech behind Oracle v. Google (FAQ)


Android began with Dalvik which is a just-in-time compiler, and now uses ART, which is an ahead-of-time compiler. At no point was it ever interpreted as per the Java VM.


----------



## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

OK, having dug a bit, as a lay person, mauvais possibly means this:

Compilers, Interpreters, and Emulators

versus this Why does Android use Java?

Correct?


----------



## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

In other words, it's a "purist" dispute:



> Java is the source, but its not compiled to java virtual machine compatible byte code. This is why they'll probably most/all of the patent dispute with sun/oracle. They're only using the syntax of the language.



Response/dispute lies here:



> It still has to support most functions of the java vm. So they can't optimize those out.



Hence the court case. Not just semantics. Much more "lifted" from Java there than they want to admit...

Never mind the pedantry here!

These machines are all vulnerable, of course, at all levels, including intercepting your (snail) mail (not email), infesting it with code or HW etc. But Jacob's video is just a bit "too much" for our purists here...

So, back to the theme: anyone here actually using the Ubuntu phone, please? Anyone knows how to get it?


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## mauvais (Oct 22, 2016)

It's not purist at all, it's a fundamental part of the architecture - you just don't like being wrong.

The first of your two articles explains the difference between compiler and interpreter.


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## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

Indeed and you are not seeing the rational (explained above) behind the law suit, are you? And they lost, have they not?


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## mauvais (Oct 22, 2016)

It's totally irrelevant to the point.


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## xenon (Oct 22, 2016)

Not read whole thread but I'd quite like to try a Ubuntu phone. It would be handy to have all the usual Linux tools in a phone.

As for such a phone being inherently more secure... I think if absolute privacy is your chief concern, a Nokia 3310 might be a better option. Security wise. Bugs in apps, faulty implementation of protocols, bad practise, all that still applies to *nix systems.


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## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

Yes, x, I know it's not perfect. I am just trying to do what I can, being a lay person and rather limited technically...

I inform myself and then I do what I can to try to preserve my rights, if I can. If not, then organise and see...

Either way, fight back with what we have, encourage and support those who do the right thing!

Now, it seems some here "think" it's all irrelevant and whatnot. Yayks!

Thanx for the point re. Nokia. I will have a look, cheers!

Mauvais, now who has to be right all the time... Meh!


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## xenon (Oct 22, 2016)

No GPS on the 3310... No apps... It's got snake though and a battery life of a week. Or did have.


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## editor (Oct 22, 2016)

You've got a phone in your pocket, you're walking around with a mobile tracker. Inescapable compromise that won't be fixed by any magic OS. Easiest way is to buy a SIM from a vendor who'snot bothered about your address, grab a cheap but capable Android phone, use your noggin with what apps and services you use and off you go. Or if you're extra paranoid buy a shit and obscure old phone that barely does anything useful.

Unless you're a spy, trrrrist or being tracked by Interpol the already slim chances of The Man bothering with you are greatly reduced.


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## existentialist (Oct 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Anyone WHO ACTUALLY HAS UBUNTU phone here?!?


If it turns out - as I suspect - that *nobody* here has an Ubuntu phone, that should tell you something.

Whether or not they feel like sticking their necks on the line, given the way you've responded here to anyone who doesn't tell you what you want to hear, is another matter...


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## existentialist (Oct 22, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well, I'm a professional Android specialising software engineer and I used to work for a company that specialises in national & cyber security.
> 
> So there's that, I suppose.


Pah.


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## maomao (Oct 22, 2016)

Gorski threads are always good value. Even if you don't care about the subject material, watching an abusive little twat lose his temper and abuse everyone for the pettiest of reasons is one of the purest forms of entertainment the internet offers.


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## newbie (Oct 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Btw, newbie, what exactly do you know of the dark places in Android? Have you done the studying, patching etc.? Because as I said, there is "Paranoid Android" out there and you claim it's for no reason, right?
> 
> What have you actually done on that front? Go, on "expert"... Show me you are not just another wannabie wanting to look bigger than life, attacking somebody who from the start said he is not an expert...
> 
> And not just you: anyone in this thread?!?



you might like to show where I've claimed to be an expert.  At the same time you could show where I've attacked you or anyone else.  Or you could apologise.

Anyway, I'm just a geeky enthusiast.  This is what I've got

this CM built by someone in Brazil; the last CM I had came from someone in Borneo who had to quit after being grounded by his parents for not doing his homework.  You can go for a major corp if you want, I think what the Android development community has done and is doing is utterly fantastic, people have been developing for pretty much every phone on the worldwide market since Android started, and what used to be horribly messy is now very smooth indeed.  I'll take being told I'm a naive silly old sausage by mauvais or anyone else with expertise and understanding (and, tbh, there's every chance they'll immediately spot the significant compromise in what I'm running).

I'd like to move to CM13 based on Android 6 but the main build for my phone isn't quite stable enough for me yet, because I'm not a developer or programmer and I know my limits.



> Because as I said, there is "Paranoid Android" out there and you claim it's for no reason, right?



I didn't say anything of the sort. You may be "_from the Humanities_" but that doesn't excuse you from being able to understand what's written.  What I said was



> Although, I notice from the (rather sparse) Paranoid Android threads on XDA that there's more discussion on installing GAPPs than anything else. So what's the point of _serious work_ if it's immediately blown apart by putting google services on the thing?



which you didn't answer and probably didn't bother to think about.  PA has been around for a while but hasn't gathered much interest, I don't know why. Perhaps it doesn't offer anything over CM, which is one of the very popular base schemes, and, just like PA, can be run without any privacy busting google apps.

sorry about the size of the attachment


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## mauvais (Oct 22, 2016)

newbie, CM's been going almost since the beginning, and used to be the go-to custom ROM. It's not something I really follow any more but I faintly gather it's become less popular and more controversial of late. I may be talking rubbish.

As for the security of it... it comes down to trust rather than security, as that video upthread pointed out. IMO it's quite unlikely it contains anything nasty. The baseline will be much the same as any other Android image, including OEM ones. Whether it's more or less secure than any of them will come down to how diligent each is at integrating fixes. I would hazard a guess that as an amateur project it's perhaps not the best, but then OEMs have traditionally been incompetent or uninterested at this too, so you pay your money & take your chances etc. At the very least you're a moving target unlike the years old stock firmware on many phones.

Then there's the dubious value in the twin factors of whether anyone cares about attack and defence. If noone's using the thing then what's the point of finding exploits to attack, and if noone's using the thing then what's the point of finding vulnerabilities to report. That's a bit of security-through-obscurity which is never ideal but still matters in some contexts.

Finally there's the matter of it potentially enabling root access, which is a massive security risk and probably the most likely way to compromise your device. That's something that (you hope!) doesn't exist with a locked bootloader and OEM software.

External to CM, there's the fact that it comes without the GApps (obviously you can add them), which is good news if you hate/fear Google, but probably bad news if you fear more general interception and eavesdropping, because Google services are a known quantity in terms of security (all HTTPS for a start) and whatever tinpot third party alternative you use is not necessarily.

Then we're back to the fact that this is only ever best effort consumer self-protection, and if the state was interested, then what editor said comes into play, and even the anonymous SIM won't help you there.


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## newbie (Oct 22, 2016)

mauvais said:


> As for the security of it... it comes down to trust



trust / risk / benefit
CM is amateur but then so am I and I'm not looking for the absolutes that gorski seeks. Professional grade security comes with more usability compromises than I care for. And more cost, which is important to me. I could place my trust in Apple and spend £700 on an iphone and leave them to decide what's in my best interests.  I'm not going to though..

I take your point about root access. I have to explicitly enable root a few minutes at a time; to be a threat rooting would have to happen silently and without notification.  I can't tell how possible that is.  As a professional you may be able to make an informed assessment, if you spend sufficient time on it, but as a user I can't.  It's that simple, but I console myself that the risks are outweighed by the entertainment/benefit I get from the playing around I do iyswim.	Cheap (£105) phone, the buzz from lurking on the edges of the developer community, the benefit of better facilities than any stock phone I've ever had, that's enough for me- the risk is not more than well, someone using up my fiver a month service and some data loss i suppose. I don't do banking on my phone, which is the main thing i would really care about. A full risk assessment would be very interesting, but I don't know how to do one.

[/QUOTE]
External to CM, there's the fact that it comes without the GApps (obviously you can add them), which is good news if you hate/fear Google, but probably bad news if you fear more general interception and eavesdropping, because Google services are a known quantity in terms of security (all HTTPS for a start) and whatever tinpot third party alternative you use is not necessarily.
[/QUOTE]
I take your point entirely about security but this thread is about privacy.  GAPPS may be secure but they harvest data which the truly paranoid will seek to avoid.


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## 1%er (Oct 22, 2016)

two sheds said:


> The article just linked to says Tor has been compromised, although that was 2014 - is it ok again? Although I'm not sure I like sharing my IP address with randoms anyway.


Tor is useless if you are looking for anonymity, you'd be hard pressed to find a single exit node that isn't compromised in some way. Riffle (if and when it gets going) looks like it could be good and is reckoned to be 10 times faster than Tor.


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## mauvais (Oct 22, 2016)

newbie said:


> to be a threat rooting would have to happen silently and without notification.  I can't tell how possible that is.  As a professional you may be able to make an informed assessment, if you spend sufficient time on it, but as a user I can't.


The trouble is that an explicit pathway to root now exists on the device, guarded by some low level software and an app with a UI. If an attacker finds an exploit in those pieces, the game is up. How likely that is, I don't know.



newbie said:


> It's that simple, but I console myself that the risks are outweighed by the entertainment/benefit I get from the playing around I do iyswim.	Cheap (£105) phone, the buzz from lurking on the edges of the developer community, the benefit of better facilities than any stock phone I've ever had, that's enough for me- the risk is not more than well, someone using up my fiver a month service and some data loss i suppose. I don't do banking on my phone, which is the main thing i would really care about. A full risk assessment would be very interesting, but I don't know how to do one.


Nobody does at this point, not in its entirety, only in set pieces and a kind of 'try some doorhandles' approach. The secure platforms people use (e.g. government) are either secure from the start, like Blackberry used to make, or are stripped down, restricted and limited in terms of functionality. As you say, it's a balance.



newbie said:


> I take your point entirely about security but this thread is about privacy.  GAPPS may be secure but they harvest data which the truly paranoid will seek to avoid.


They're inextricably linked. Google harvests data, which is a privacy issue, but it's mostly a known quantity and mostly a kind of bad smell rather than a tangible personal risk, like someone stood outside your house taking photos. However if someone has your Google password, they can probably see where you've physically been for a very long period of history, probably request passwords via email etc - that would be a major privacy breach. Then we're into the realms of security again and how likely that is to happen, what defences there are to it, etc.

You can avoid that whilst keeping the same user benefits of, say, maps or email by using a third party. The trouble then is that it's not necessarily a known quantity any more, nor is the security around it. It's probably better, overall, but then how many times recently have you had notices about some service's compromised data etc? How many from Google?

There's no really good technical answers, just a personal set of choices.


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## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

Heh, neither have I said I want 'absolutes' - expressis verbis I said that this is NOT what I am after, many a time! - nor have I mentioned in any way I want "them" not to be able to track me. Eejuts! Go on, show your snaky bodies, heroically fight a strawman...  Very droll...

Otherwise, it is fun to watch how morons with half a brain loose it very quickly when one asks a "weird" question  and/or challenges their "common sense" prejudices and/or status quo... "What? Ubuntu on the phone? How dare you!!! No on here has it! Therefore you must be a moron!"  Honestly...  Worst than kids! 

Other than that, anyone actually adventurous here and feels like supporting a good thing?  Especially since I suspect many here would actually appreciate it... 

Btw, I have had the pleasure of messing with unofficial Android versions a long time. So what? Doesn't make me an expert, like some here, pontificating... And they are just as clueless as I am...  Well, I am not completely uniformed... 

But hey, keep talking "authoritatively" on issues you have not informed yourselves on, like Jacob's little passion...


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## existentialist (Oct 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Heh, neither have I said I want 'absolutes' - expressis verbis I said that this is NOT what I am after, many a time! - nor have I mentioned in any way I want "them" not to be able to track me. Eejuts! Go on, show your snaky bodies, heroically fight a strawman...  Very droll...
> 
> Otherwise, it is fun to watch how morons with half a brain loose it very quickly when one asks a "weird" question  and/or challenges their "common sense" prejudices and/or status quo... "What? Ubuntu on the phone? How dare you!!! No on here has it! Therefore you must be a moron!"  Honestly...  Worst than kids!
> 
> ...


You must be on a different thread to me, then, because what I have seen is a number of people clearly speaking with some authority, and from experience, reasonably and patiently pointing out why things aren't the way you insist they should be.

And then we have you, passive-aggressively spewing all kinds of half-invented paranoid bollocks all over the place, which seems to be based on what it is you'd have liked them to say in order to justify you having a good old rant about how Special you are, and what amazingly "weird" questions you ask that nobody can manage to answer.

It's an impressive demonstration of how to step repeatedly on your own dick, I'll give you that


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## editor (Oct 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Otherwise, it is fun to watch how morons with half a brain loose it very quickly


It's "lose," actually.


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## existentialist (Oct 22, 2016)

editor said:


> It's "lose," actually.


I expect he knew that all along, and was cunningly luring (or is that "luuring"?) you into his trap. Muahaha, look at this enormous dick I'm waving around, etc., blah.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 22, 2016)

maomao said:


> Gorski threads are always good value. Even if you don't care about the subject material, watching an abusive little twat lose his temper and abuse everyone for the pettiest of reasons is one of the purest forms of entertainment the internet offers.



Only excelled when dwyer joins in, and the two have a reach-around.


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## gorski (Oct 22, 2016)

Oho, hoooo, long time no see... It was just a matter of when...  Nothing better to do, eh? 

You lot are not worth a pinky nail clipping of Mr. Dwyer, just so there is no mistake of any kind!!! 

And I see quite a few here really love their "strength in numbers", which only goes to show how weak a bunch you really are, when you need to do this kind of mobbing, against what I said, expressis verbis many a time... So, this "heroism" of fighting a strawman really makes me laugh!!!   

Many here really have half a brain and couldn't think for love or money. Many have a psychological presentness of a child, so can't possibly keep it together for long enough to have a coherent argument. And most don't even bother with any such rubbish, just plain mobbing would do, fank you very mooch...

Sad ol' bunch, really. So sad it makes me laugh!


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

existentialist said:


> ...spewing all kinds of half-invented paranoid bollocks all over the place...



Here, boyyo, eat your heart (or whatever rubbish stands there) out:


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## Winot (Oct 23, 2016)

mauvais said:


> Well, I'm a professional Android specialising software engineer and I used to work for a company that specialises in national & cyber security.
> 
> So there's that, I suppose.



I think you'll find that people have had enough of experts.


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## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

Winot said:


> I think you'll find that people have had enough of experts.


Yeah, what's the point of knowledge and experience when you have *belief*.


----------



## newbie (Oct 23, 2016)

Winot said:


> I think you'll find that people have had enough of experts.


ooh, I dunno.  Personally I learn a lot by foolish _pontificating_ and letting experts gently correct me, others seem to prefer watching world famous scary experts on youtube.


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Hmmm, I for one am grateful to experts like Snowden, Appelbaum etc. for speaking out, risking at least their liberty and doing the right thing, thinking strategically...

Of course, experts without conscience we have had our fill of...


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Newbie, you're adrift... I pity you and your bunch when you want to look so "expert like" and actually pontificate, mostly in a cynical manner...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Of course, experts without conscience we have had our fill of...



Looks hard at mauvais and newbie.


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Why?


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## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Newbie, you're adrift... I pity you and your bunch when you want to look so "expert like" and actually pontificate, mostly in a cynical manner...


So how would you describe the manner of your pontification?


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

I never attacked anyone first in this manner. Neither have I pontificated.

I did lament those who have not seen stuff on which they nevertheless had "strong stance" on and made themselves into gross fools,imagining they somehow had absolute knowledge and did not need to listen to anyone about any of the stuff on which they were freely giving their opinions, as it happens, without basic info to base their brave opinions on...


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## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> I never attacked anyone first in this manner. Neither have I pontificated.
> 
> I did lament those who have not seen stuff on which they nevertheless had "strong stance" on and made themselves into gross fools,imagining they somehow had absolute knowledge and did not need to listen to anyone about any of the stuff on which they were freely giving their opinions, as it happens, without basic info to base their brave opinions on...


I think "pontification" is often a very subjective thing. Not to mention being a term which is often used to dismiss wise words well spoken, but which the accuser doesn't want to (or can't) actually address.

So yes, you're probably right - you haven't pontificated. Because your words are neither wise, nor well spoken.


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

You are wrong:

1) these are not my words

2) they are well spoken

3) these guys, risking a lot, have not pontificated

4) they pointed to the facts via leaked documents for which action people have suffered considerably...

I just happen to remember that Jesus was betrayed after doing all he could for those who betrayed him, so there... Just how blasé can you get over such essential issues?

But all to their own...


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## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> You are wrong:
> 
> 1) these are not my words
> 
> ...


OK, so you're equating yourself to Jesus, now? 

Good luck with that.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> You are wrong:
> 
> 1) these are not my words
> 
> ...


Fuck me, you really are a prick.

Jesus, lol


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

What bozzos!

I repeat, for the IQ challenged: NOT MY WORDS (i.e. not my deeds)!!!! NOT me (the Jesus analogy) but THEM, the guys who risked a lot to get it out, in the open, to open your eyes, so you can safeguard your liberty, your human rights, which are fast being eroded... They sacrificed a lot, only for you to not even want to know it... Fuckwits!!!

Your blasé conduct about such important issues is, however, not only a betrayal of your own rights but you are not doing anything you should/ought to be doing so you don't leave the same shitty world for your own kids! So, really, I am starting to despise your sorry arses...


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> What bozzos!
> 
> I repeat, for the IQ challenged: NOT MY WORDS (i.e. not my deeds)!!!! NOT me (the Jesus analogy) but THEM, the guys who risked a lot to get it out, in the open, to open your eyes, so you can safeguard your liberty, your human rights, which are fast being eroded... They sacrificed a lot, only for you to not even want to know it... Fuckwits!!!
> 
> Your blasé conduct about such important issues is, however, not only a betrayal of your own rights but you are not doing anything you should/ought to be doing so you don't leave the same shitty world for your own kids! So, really, I am starting to despise your sorry arses...


So Snowden is Jesus?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> What bozzos!
> 
> I repeat, for the IQ challenged: NOT MY WORDS (i.e. not my deeds)!!!! NOT me (the Jesus analogy) but THEM, the guys who risked a lot to get it out, in the open, to open your eyes, so you can safeguard your liberty, your human rights, which are fast being eroded... They sacrificed a lot, only for you to not even want to know it... Fuckwits!!!
> 
> Your blasé conduct about such important issues is, however, not only a betrayal of your own rights but you are not doing anything you should/ought to be doing so you don't leave the same shitty world for your own kids! So, really, I am starting to despise your sorry arses...


Yeah, by not having an Ubuntu phone I really do feel I'm letting my children down. How they'll ever forgive me is anyone's guess.


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

No, morons... Analogy, FFS... And it's not the phone itself (although it might help) but caring about...

Achhhh, never mind, you couldn't think for your dear lives...


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> No, morons... Analogy, FFS... And it's not the phone itself (although it might help) but caring about...
> 
> Achhhh, never mind, you couldn't think for your dear lives...


I think we're just going to have to accept the brutal reality that none of us is really quite up to the mark of finding meaning in your gnomic pronouncements. You win the internets. Well done, use it wisely.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> No, morons... Analogy, FFS... And it's not the phone itself (although it might help) but caring about...
> 
> Achhhh, never mind, you couldn't think for your dear lives...


With such visionaries as yourself doing the thinking for us I'm sure we'll all be just fine.


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## keybored (Oct 23, 2016)

I hope Ubuntu comes with lots of emoticons and a clever latin phrase generator.


----------



## newbie (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Hmmm, I for one am grateful to experts like Snowden, Appelbaum etc. for speaking out, risking at least their liberty and doing the right thing, thinking strategically...



and you think you're alone in that?  I've no real idea why you keep posting 3 year old revelations like they're somehow new, shocking and have not been very heavily discussed.  Do you really think nobody other than you recognises this stuff?  For most of us who live in 2016 it's become a well known part of the backdrop to everything, yet you seem to want to foreground it to parade how smart you are.  



gorski said:


> I never attacked anyone first in this manner. Neither have I pontificated.



well, you got all the way through to post #5 before attacking anyone if that's what you mean.



gorski said:


> Newbie, you're adrift... I pity you and your bunch when you want to look so "expert like" and actually pontificate, mostly in a cynical manner...



where are you quoting "expert like" from?  I've explicitly said I'm not an expert. 

I'll plead to being cynical though.  Is it any wonder? Like others who've spent a lifetime doing manual work I'm used to being patronised by intellectual snobs 'from the humanities' who like to point and laugh _you're thick, you're a moron_...  I might well be thick, but I can figure out who's worth listening to and who is just an empty waste.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

keybored said:


> I hope Ubuntu comes with lots of emoticons and a clever latin phrase generator.


And a keyboard that doesn't require the use of opposable thumbs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Oho, hoooo, long time no see... It was just a matter of when...  Nothing better to do, eh?
> 
> You lot are not worth a pinky nail clipping of Mr. Dwyer, just so there is no mistake of any kind!!!
> 
> ...



It's always amusing watching a philosopher pontificate about science. Watching you do so is doubly amusing.

As for coherent argument, once you can do so without emoticons and swearing, please come back and attempt it.


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## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Morons! Post no. 5 is preceded by a PATRONISING (and UNRELATED TO POST NO. 1!) post no. 4 - but hey, forget about it conveniently...

And so on and on and on... Some of the contributors in this thread are truly lamentable!!!


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

VP, perhaps if you could actually try to stay with the subject matter, that would help...

Of course, none of that but hey... why not be violent and stay true to your nick....

Meh!!!!!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2016)

Just fuck off.


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Heh, it hit a nerve, eh?

Well, in that spirit, only with a lot more reasons for it: you are asked to fuck off with your "contributions", thanx...


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

BUFFONS!!1!    I, Aørski, SPEAK  unto you (BUT not to YOU, Poster #5401 who are LAMPPOSTING undeniably truth freezers) when you Listen!!! But not! Hey, ask yourself a QUESTION, why don't you, because! You know I have ANSwerS to YoUR questions BEFORE you!    have even fRaMed THe question In now your JUST trying 2 change the SUBJECT beCuASE I Am Aørski and I know You know I don't KNOW that you KNOW that I know YOU ARE WRONG


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

WTF are you on? Renders you completely useless...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2016)

existentialist said:


> BUFFONS!!1!    I, Aørski, SPEAK  unto you (BUT not to YOU, Poster #5401 who are LAMPPOSTING undeniably truth freezers) when you Listen!!! But not! Hey, ask yourself a QUESTION, why don't you, because! You know I have ANSwerS to YoUR questions BEFORE you!    have even fRaMed THe question In now your JUST trying 2 change the SUBJECT beCuASE I Am Aørski and I know You know I don't KNOW that you KNOW that I know YOU ARE WRONG


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> WTF are you on? Renders you completely useless...


I like the implication that I'd have to be on something to be rendered completely useless.

I shall take that as a (rare) compliment from you.


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Well deserved and earned by rather mindless work! 

Now, anyone with an Ubuntu phone here, please?


----------



## keybored (Oct 23, 2016)

I'll get one as soon as I've grown my neckbeard.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Hmmm, I for one am grateful to experts like Snowden, Appelbaum etc. for speaking out, risking at least their liberty and doing the right thing, thinking strategically...
> 
> Of course, experts without conscience we have had our fill of...



Conscience? You know Appelbaum is a disgraced sexpest?

What part of using the equally disgraced Ubuntu is helping save all of teh humantees!!?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

keybored said:


> I'll get one as soon as I've grown my neckbeard.


Proper LOL


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Dr ding-dong, you are simply wrong re. Ubuntu. Full stop! Quite the opposite is the case! I think you are not seeing the woods for the trees...

Re. Jacob: even _*if *_one has a flaw in some regard this does not prevent him from having the best ideals and conscience in other ways. Elementary stuff but hey... Why not use the disgraceful "logic" to disgrace yourself, if you can help it... 

Oh, one more thing: allegedly others from the same circle are also "rapists" and we know that they just couldn't physically do this to two women at the same time (speaking from memory on the Julian's case)...

But why not have a go at things neither of us have witnessed and... Oh, well... Why not trust the Amuuurican Gov on this one, sure...

Shameful "logic"!!! Have you no shame?!?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2016)

I have to say that gorski is on point when it comes to the open source ethic of "violently insulting anyone who disagrees with you".


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have to say that gorski is on point when it comes to the open source ethic of "violently insulting anyone who disagrees with you".


One can only stand in awe and admiration of his natural talents in this area...


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Nah, FM: we are witnessing ganging up, as per usual nasty conduct on Urban, nasty petty pests - the usual suspects, the "heros" of "common sense" - trying to heal their complexes by mobbing somebody who they do not have the capacity to understand, as is quite obvious from this thread alone, that they do not have the minimal requirements for thinking critically, using their own brains.

All done many a time under your watch, amongst others, allowing this type of conduct.

Are you not ashamed of yourself?

I asked a Q. WTF is this?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 23, 2016)

It's emacs. Definitely emacs.

ETA: actually that's a bit glib. Emacs vs vi is usually irrational factionalism rather than simple reflexive argument. Two emacsers could have a sensible discussion about some aspect of emacs, maybe.


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

Eh?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Nah, FM: we are witnessing ganging up, as per usual nasty conduct on Urban, nasty petty pests - the usual suspects, the "heros" of "common sense" - trying to heal their complexes by mobbing somebody who they do not have the capacity to understand, as is quite obvious from this thread alone, that they do not have the minimal requirements for thinking critically, using their own brains.
> 
> All done many a time under your watch, amongst others allowing this type of conduct.
> 
> ...


At last! Something we can agree on! Why on earth should a mod not be totally accountable for _every fucking thing_ every poster on this site ever says? And if a poster (say, one called...gorski) should turn up with some random stream-of-semi-consciousness garble that succeeds in uniting all kinds of disparate and sworn Urban enemies in their condemnation (or at least amusement) at the burblings of the poster in question...well, obviously FridgeMagnet should have seen that coming and pre-emptively banned every last man jack of them before they had the opportunity to incite him to a stream of random capitalisation, punctuation and emoticon abuse.

Fie on you, Fridgemagnet. For shame!


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Nah, FM: we are witnessing ganging up, as per usual nasty conduct on Urban, nasty petty pests - the usual suspects, the "heros" of "common sense" - trying to heal their complexes by mobbing somebody who they do not have the capacity to understand, as is quite obvious from this thread alone, that they do not have the minimal requirements for thinking critically, using their own brains.
> 
> All done many a time under your watch, amongst others, allowing this type of conduct.
> 
> ...


----------



## gorski (Oct 23, 2016)

DR ding-dong, ain't that the truth!!!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Eh?


You clearly don't have the capacity to understand. Try thinking critically, use your brain.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2016)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You clearly don't have the capacity to understand. Try thinking critically, use your brain.


Er...


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 23, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have to say that gorski is on point when it comes to the open source ethic of "violently insulting anyone who disagrees with you".



Just as


gorski said:


> Eh?



Don't worry about FM, he's clearly burned by many years of sniping...relating open source with arguments.

Another reason why we cant have nice things.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Oct 24, 2016)

gorski said:


> Now, anyone with an Ubuntu phone here, please?


I have one. It's rubbish and as secure as a wet paper bag.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 24, 2016)

The only way an ubuntu or other proper Linux distro will become popular on a phone is if they can support android apps. Else there's noway people will see it as an option. Apps are what people really care about.


----------



## gorski (Oct 24, 2016)

I hope this is not just about "popularity" and it's not just about apps...

As for the other comments:


----------



## fractionMan (Oct 24, 2016)

I run my phone using the ucsd pascal virtual machine.   Fully secure


----------



## existentialist (Oct 24, 2016)

fractionMan said:


> I run my phone using the ucsd pascal virtual machine.   Fully secure


I soldered a ZX Spectrum ROM into mine.


----------



## newbie (Oct 24, 2016)

gorski said:


> I hope this is not just about "popularity" and it's not just about apps...
> 
> As for the other comments:


what is it about then?  Go on, give us a proper answer, explain in detail what you're trying to achieve and how putting Ubuntu on your phone is relevant to that objective, here and now in 2016.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Oct 24, 2016)

newbie said:


> what is it about then?  Go on, give us a proper answer, explain in detail what you're trying to achieve and how putting Ubuntu on your phone is relevant to that objective, here and now in 2016.


Don't try and bring facts into this.


----------



## gorski (Oct 24, 2016)

Yeah, right, I am trying to make it "popular"...   FFS, kiddos... 

I am through explaining anything to people with closed minds and hearts, thanx for your overwhelmingly good willed, non-patronising 'help'...

FractionMan, could you elaborate, please? Thanx!


----------



## existentialist (Oct 24, 2016)

gorski said:


> Yeah, right, I am trying to make it "popular"...   FFS, kiddos...


No, you want to keep it all to yourself. Once everyone else has written it, obvs. 



gorski said:


> I am through explaining anything to people with closed minds and hearts, thanx for your overwhelmingly good willed, non-patronising 'help'...


Doesn't being "through" with something tend to suggest that it's actually been started? Telling everybody they're wrong about everything isn't "explaining", at least not in my dictionary.

I also look forward to fractionMan's elucidation


----------



## gorski (Oct 24, 2016)

Some power of "understanding" and/or "memory" you have...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 26, 2016)

gorski said:


> VP, perhaps if you could actually try to stay with the subject matter, that would help...
> 
> Of course, none of that but hey... why not be violent and stay true to your nick....
> 
> Meh!!!!!



You're such a _schmuck_. A veritable _gonif_. It must be tiring for you, having to boost your sense of self by constantly belittling others.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 26, 2016)

keybored said:


> I'll get one as soon as I've grown my neckbeard.



Fortunately, after a month of not trimming my beard, it goes into full neckbeard mode - add a plaid shirt and I could be a badly-raddled lumberjack - so would be able to purchase a Ubuntu phone straight away. Frankly though, I'm not sure of the point. It's well-known that intelligence services have managed to lever open back doors into most proprietary encryption*, so you'd have to be using some left-field software that wouldn't actually be used by many people, making the "coverage" you'd get from your phone *use* minimal.

*The example _par excellence_ being the CIA's strong-arming of one of the satphone providers to allow them to "listen in" on calls when satphones became a "thing" for terrorists in the 90s.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 26, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's emacs. Definitely emacs.
> 
> ETA: actually that's a bit glib. Emacs vs vi is usually irrational factionalism rather than simple reflexive argument. Two emacsers could have a sensible discussion about some aspect of emacs, maybe.



Luddite! VIM is better!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 26, 2016)

fractionMan said:


> I run my phone using the ucsd pascal virtual machine.   Fully secure



The only problem is that there are only 6 users of that system in the entire world.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Luddite! VIM is better!


Fucking moderniser! Noone wants your 'improvements'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 26, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I soldered a ZX Spectrum ROM into mine.



Can you play Manic Miner on it?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Can you play Manic Miner on it?


Not if I can help it.


----------



## gorski (Oct 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're such a _schmuck_. A veritable _gonif_. It must be tiring for you, having to boost your sense of self by constantly belittling others.



I have done nothing of the sort - but you and a few others, on the other hand, have tried it on me, with very little "luck" - so fuck off, you petty cunt!!!  Btw, as we both know, not only on this thread does this BS keep going on and on...

As for the rest: if you can't read with understanding - so sorry but I can't do much about that... 

May I refer you to the coders of _Paranoid Android_ for starters...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2016)

i have ubuntu on desktop - could I run a phone through that? would be useful


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## existentialist (Oct 27, 2016)

two sheds said:


> i have ubuntu on desktop - could I run a phone through that? would be useful


I find my arm gets tired from holding it to my ear, though.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2016)

Don't be daft I've got a laptop for that


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 27, 2016)

gorski said:


> I have done nothing of the sort - but you and a few others, on the other hand, have tried it on me, with very little "luck" - so fuck off, you petty cunt!!!  Btw, as we both know, not only on this thread does this BS keep going on and on...
> 
> As for the rest: if you can't read with understanding - so sorry but I can't do much about that...
> 
> May I refer you to the coders of _Paranoid Android_ for starters...



No, you may not.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 27, 2016)

two sheds said:


> i have ubuntu on desktop - could I run a phone through that? would be useful



It's easier with a phablet.  No messy power cable (most of the time).


----------



## keybored (Oct 27, 2016)

gorski said:


> May I refer you to the coders of _Paranoid Android_ for starters...



I just asked my mate Thom who was heavily involved in that project and he doesn't know what you're talking about either.


----------



## gorski (Oct 27, 2016)

Sure...

VP, I am stunned!!! Not since the sandpit have I felt like that! Well bloody done! What wit!


----------



## joustmaster (Oct 27, 2016)

gorski said:


> Sure...
> 
> VP, I am stunned!!! Not since the sandpit have I felt like that! Well bloody done! What wit!


hey way you sound in your own head is very different to the way you sound to others.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 27, 2016)

joustmaster said:


> hey way you sound in your own head is very different to the way you sound to others.


I hope for his sake that it's quieter.


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

The way you lot sound to me, no wonder this becomes reality:

'Extreme surveillance' becomes UK law with barely a whimper

Bravo! Go dance naked around a fire...


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> The way you lot sound to me, no wonder this becomes reality:
> 
> 'Extreme surveillance' becomes UK law with barely a whimper
> 
> Bravo! Go dance naked around a fire...


It's been going on for years - and won't stop anytime soon. Pointless worrying about it.


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

Precisely my point...


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> The way you lot sound to me, no wonder this becomes reality:
> 
> 'Extreme surveillance' becomes UK law with barely a whimper
> 
> Bravo! Go dance naked around a fire...



Are Ubuntu phones exempt from surveillance under the new legislation then?


----------



## existentialist (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Precisely my point...


There has always been an answer - and it's the same thing they'll be saying to spies and other deniable types: if you don't want to be surveilled, don't use the technology.

Your point has no point - the surveillance is built into the devices and networks they connect to, it just cannot be otherwise. And nobody is seriously going to expect governments or corporations to have that sort of capability in their back pocket and not be compelled to use it. Think of it as a law of nature, if it helps contain your outrage at it.


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

BS!

1) Your general attitude makes me think all of you blasé enough to have such a cavalier attitude towards these issues are either morons and conservatives or spies, gov paid arselickers and alike!

2) Encryption on those phones is possible. Full stop!

3) No one said none of it would be possible (triangulating etc.) if we get better Linux OS and apps for them, morons - how brave your fight against a straw-man is...

4) We need a real struggle for safeguarding our human rights. I don't address the little Stalins and Hitlers here, of course...


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> 1) Your general attitude makes me think all of you blasé enough to have such a cavalier attitude towards these issues are either morons and conservatives or spies, gov paid arselickers and alike!



You're fucking nuts. 

If we were getting paid to wind you up we'd do even more of it.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> BS!
> 
> 1) Your general attitude makes me think all of you blasé enough to have such a cavalier attitude towards these issues are either morons and conservatives or spies, gov paid arselickers and alike!


Actually that's true. I am a paid moronic conservative arselicker. 



gorski said:


> 2) Encryption on those phones is possible. Full stop!


Sure. So now you have a phone whose contents are uncrackable, but whose location at every point is known. And, of course, your encryption is no use if you're talking to someone without it (which is nearly everybody else).



gorski said:


> 3) No one said none of it would be possible (triangulating etc.) if we get better Linux OS and apps for them, morons - how brave your fight against a straw-man is...


I'm not fighting against a strawman. I'm not even fighting, but what I am confronted with is ignorance and foolishness. Nobody is actually saying you're wrong to want what you want, but most of us are - increasingly painstakingly - trying to point out that the problems and issues you see as significant are actually mostly irrelevant, against the much bigger issues around mobile devices connecting to commercial radio networks.



gorski said:


> 4) We need a real struggle for safeguarding our human rights. I don't address the little Stalins and Hitlers here, of course...


It's a shame that you undermine your principled stand so by resorting quite so easily to namecalling.

Anyway, nice diversion as this has been, it's all fairly pointless.


----------



## keybored (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> BS!
> 
> 1) Your general attitude makes me think all of you blasé enough to have such a cavalier attitude towards these issues are either morons and conservatives or spies, gov paid arselickers and alike!
> 
> ...



If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.


----------



## joustmaster (Nov 21, 2016)

Gorski's post read like a conversation at 11am, three days in to a speed binge, at the point you realise that you should probably go home.


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

Nope, you are talking to somebody who fought hard for those rights, under a Stalinist regime, when it really mattered and when it was dangerous.

So, to me you're a bunch of bollockless morons, who do not know and of course do not appreciate what you have, like spoilt children born with a silver spoon in your twisted mouths.

And now that you are losing it openly and without any scrutiny - nothing... not even a whimper, knavishly you just shrug off your shoulders...

I pity you!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Nope, you are talking to somebody who fought hard for those rights, under a Stalinist regime, when it really mattered and when it was dangerous.
> 
> So, to me you're a bunch of bollockless morons, who do not know and of course do not appreciate what you have, like spoilt children born with a silver spoon in your twisted mouths.
> 
> ...


Oh fuck off you tiresome, pompous, twat.


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Nope, you are talking to somebody who fought hard for those rights, under a Stalinist regime, when it really mattered and when it was dangerous.
> 
> So, to me you're a bunch of bollockless morons, who do not know and of course do not appreciate what you have, like spoilt children born with a silver spoon in your twisted mouths.
> 
> ...


Is that how you won the velvet revolution? With Ubuntu phones?


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

Nope, bees, the "honour" is on you, you spineless imbecile!!!!! And I mean it!!!!


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

Mao, there is a reason why this country never produced a proper, modern revolution...


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> So, to me you're a bunch of bollockless morons


Nope - just checked, and my bollocks are all present and correct.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Nope, bees, the "honour" is on you, you spineless imbecile!!!!! And I mean it!!!!


"Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind..."
- Terry Pratchett, _Reaper Man_


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

As is your quoting a sign of an empty mind...


----------



## maomao (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Mao, there is a reason why this country never produced a proper, modern revolution...


Is it a lack of Ubuntu phones?


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 21, 2016)

After 9 pages I'm still non the wiser on how running Linux on my phone stops government seeing my data.


----------



## keybored (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> when it really mattered


Not like now then. Your war is over comrade, chill out.


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

"War" for freedom is never over, "comrade"...

Ubuntu phone with proper apps is what I'd like to see, yes... As in "Every little helps"... But that's higher maths for many "minds" in this thread...

That, of course, has to be propped up by a popular revolt over losing our freedoms and it just ain't gonna happen by such a-holes going blasé about it... But that is nuclear physics for those minds...


----------



## two sheds (Nov 21, 2016)

Did you get an ubuntu phone by the way? I'd love one if I went anywhere.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> Nope, you are talking to somebody who fought hard for those rights, under a Stalinist regime, when it really mattered and when it was dangerous.
> 
> So, to me you're a bunch of bollockless morons, who do not know and of course do not appreciate what you have, like spoilt children born with a silver spoon in your twisted mouths.
> 
> ...


Pity away, cunt


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

I certainly know a few on this board, that is for sure - the atmo really is a fertile ground for this kind of mindless mobbing...


----------



## existentialist (Nov 21, 2016)

gorski said:


> I certainly know a few on this board, that is for sure - the atmo really is a fertile ground for this kind of mindless mobbing...


Poor victimised gorski...


----------



## two sheds (Nov 21, 2016)

I don't even have a mobile phone - lets see them work out where I am from trying to track my landline


----------



## gorski (Nov 21, 2016)

Hehe, nice but if you have a family and you must be available....

Existensillyst, no, of course not: I am ganging up against you all, poor sods...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 21, 2016)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> After 9 pages I'm still non the wiser on how running Linux on my phone stops government seeing my data.



It doesn't.
If you encrypt your phone's data - regardless of the OS driving the hardware - then it's much harder for the govt to see your data, and you can use various programs to "mask" gps and other giveaways of your location, but ultimately your phone and your data is only as secure as the least secure person you share it with. Therefore any attempt by gorski to secure himself data and contact-wise will depend on convincing anyone he wishes to contact to be just as paranoid regarding protecting that data as he might be given a Ubuntu-driven phone.


----------



## gorski (Nov 22, 2016)

Investigatory Powers Bill: Spying on journalists undermines democracy

Anything we can do to repeal, deter and make it more difficult for them is a good thing here!

Not all communication, sure. But some things I would rather keep to myself!

And yes, some of my friends will be using additional tools for it, 'course.

It is not about paranoia but principles.

Not that many here care...

Telling, though...


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> Investigatory Powers Bill: Spying on journalists undermines democracy
> 
> Anything we can do to repeal, deter and make it more difficult for them is a good thing here!
> 
> ...



I care. I just don't trust anything I setup to be secure enough. Therefore I don't keep data on any electronic device that I wouldn't want to be seen.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 22, 2016)

gorski said:


> You lot are not worth a pinky nail clipping of Mr. Dwyer, just so there is no mistake of any kind!!!



Gorski!  What's good bro?  Nice to see you keeping on keeping on.


----------



## gorski (Nov 22, 2016)

Ha! There you are! Phew!!! I was beginning to think you may have ended in Tayip's "stairway to Jennet" cells... 

So nice to see a voice of Reason back! These poor sods don't know just how much they need you! 

Are you at least occasionally in London these days?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Investigatory Powers Bill: Spying on journalists undermines democracy
> 
> Anything we can do to repeal, deter and make it more difficult for them is a good thing here!
> 
> ...



That you believe it to be "telling" reflects only your own prejudices, preconceptions and animosity.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Ha! There you are! Phew!!! I was beginning to think you may have ended in Tayip's "stairway to Jennet" cells...
> 
> So nice to see a voice of Reason back! These poor sods don't know just how much they need you!
> 
> Are you at least occasionally in London these days?



I've successfully dodged Tayyip Abi so far, and so am free to visit London, which I do often.  Will be there in January.  Should we do a meet-up?


----------



## gorski (Nov 23, 2016)

Abolutely!!! 

VP, nope, thanx. that is reserved for you and your lot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 23, 2016)

gorski said:


> Abolutely!!!
> 
> VP, nope, thanx. that is reserved for you and your lot.



"You and your lot", you pathetic conspiranoid fuckwit?


----------



## Idaho (Nov 23, 2016)

The government isn't spying on you unless you are called Muhammad and have just bought a ton of fertiliser. People get a distorted sense of their own significance. You may be the most important person to you, but no one else cares.


----------



## Backatcha Bandit (Nov 24, 2016)

Hi Gorski! 

What you seem to forget is that we now live in an age where even expressing a desire for privacy is considered deviant behaviour.

The _"if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear"_ argument repeated put forward here isn't something you can really combat with argument or reason, as it comes from a position based on emotion (trust in benign authority, etc.)

How else can you explain the (non)reaction to the passing of the most intrusive mass surveillance legislation on the planet?

I've no doubt that your own background enables - forces, even - you to see things from a different perspective, as perhaps with a few others.  Just don't expect too much. 

As for your question:  I've never had a play with a phone running Ubuntu...  but I do now use an Android smartphone that I set out to 'de-google', which uses 100% open-source software (or as close as I can get).

Cyanogenmod, no GApps (all software via F-droid), XPrivacy (to control what can do what) and OpenVPN running via a reputable provider, location services off (until I need it), Openstreetmap, Iceweasel for a browser, K-9 for email and a few other bits.

I did use Chromium for a bit, until I realised it was still funneling everything through a google proxy (for data compression, apparently).

Not perfect by any means, but the best I can do for now.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 24, 2016)




----------



## gorski (Nov 24, 2016)

BB, yep, agreed!  One can debate if asking for privacy is deviant already or if things are sliding in that direction - but you are right, in oh so many ways... 

Btw, is there Paranoid Android for your HW? If there is - try it. 

And now follows the post I couldn't post before you wrote (dunno why, it was saved, not posted...):

Nonsense, Idaho - it is only true if you are absolutely "legit" - and very few of us are...

VP, I thought you at least had a bit of intelligence and education. Now even that is HIGHLY suspect. You are doing the same old same old as a lot of people here, doing the "ganging up" - and it is not the first time, hence my characterisation of you and ALL of those who do this mindless mobbing on so many threads on this forum, with all whom they disagree with. Bleurgh!!!


----------



## twentythreedom (Nov 24, 2016)

Ubuntu and privacy aside, you're a fucking dick


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## gorski (Nov 24, 2016)

Not really, no. But I can see how you can be slapped with this BS...


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## gorski (Nov 25, 2016)

BB, if I can add: Threema - Seriously secure messaging

Threema Gateway

What features does Threema offer? - Threema


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 25, 2016)

gorski said:


> BB, if I can add: Threema - Seriously secure messaging
> 
> Threema Gateway
> 
> What features does Threema offer? - Threema



That sounds great. I tried to use Telegram a little while back which also claimed to be more private. Problem was no other bugger was using it.


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## two sheds (Nov 25, 2016)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> That sounds great. I tried to use Telegram a little while back which also claimed to be more private. Problem was no other bugger was using it.



Their claim was right then


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## Backatcha Bandit (Nov 25, 2016)

Alas, Gorski... no ParanoidAndroid ROM for my antiquated HW... In fact, I don't see anything at all in their 'legacy' download section. 

Threema uses Google Cloud Messaging, hence requires GApps (unless you want to continuously poll for new messages)... That's before I get onto my aversion to _paying_ for stuff. 

I don't really think there's ever going to be a way to secure SMS/MMS without running into the problem UnderAnOpenSky highlights, so K-9 + PGP <->VPN is about the most user transparent and effective I can come up with. 

(Oh, and Two Sheds: When we use the bean-tins, could you pull your end of the string a bit tighter, please... it improves the SNR immeasurably  ).


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## two sheds (Nov 25, 2016)

Backatcha Bandit said:


> (Oh, and Two Sheds: When we use the bean-tins, could you pull your end of the string a bit tighter, please... it improves the SNR immeasurably  ).



I bought the dog a mobile  what you think i am, primitive?


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## Backatcha Bandit (Nov 25, 2016)

That's just cruel!   You know she'll have to walk 15 miles _and_ climb a tree to get a signal.   

Then there's the extra time she'll have to spend on that oversized hamster-wheel generator to charge it (after she's done charging your laptop, natch).


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## two sheds (Nov 25, 2016)

no she's rubbish i carry the mobile for her


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## gorski (Nov 26, 2016)

- got this in an email, since I am only reading Snowden's posts there...

Google warns journalists and professors: Your account is under attack - ahem...


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 26, 2016)

gorski said:


> - got this in an email, since I am only reading Snowden's posts there...
> 
> Google warns journalists and professors: Your account is under attack - ahem...




The fact that the users were using TOR convinces me further that if the government wants to see what's going on, they can, regardless of the OS you run. 

There's a reason the Russians are going back to typewriters for very secure communications.


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## gorski (Nov 26, 2016)

Nope, as we know from Snowden & co., mercifully, there are types of encryption that are a 'no go' even for them...


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## Bernie Gunther (Nov 26, 2016)

They don't have to overcome strong encryption if they can compromise the end points.

To my mind the value of encryption is an aggregate thing. If the NSA really wants to compromise your device, they can do it. It's way more expensive to do that than to just suck in everything they can from the backbone though. So they aren't going to do it without reason, whereas the backbone hoovering they do just because they can.


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## mauvais (Nov 26, 2016)

I'd like to know what people think is more important: message content, or patterns.

It seems to me that message data (SMS or IM) is mostly useless, unless you're a terrorist, politician or nuclear scientist or something. It's not just boring, it's unstructured and hard to automatically extract value from.

But patterns like where you've been and what you've bought and what you've searched for read are both valuable and structured.

Everyone seems most fussed about end-to-end encryption of the specific but mostly banal, whereas the general patterns (including _who_ you message) are the interesting threat.

Me, I don't care, my life's too short and boring, and there's too many vectors (largely unknown) to get at me outside of a planned secure approach to what I do on my phone or even the Internet at all for me to really consider it a priority.


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## Bernie Gunther (Nov 26, 2016)

I think there's a great deal of synergy between mass surveillance by spooks and mass surveillance by commercial interests. Where there's a conflict, for example when the US tried to introduce key escrow, the spooks got put back in their box for commercial reasons. (OK in practice they actually carried on trying to compromise fundamental elements of security at a hardware level, but they stopped talking about it in public.)

Where there's a synergy , as there is with metadata analysis on a mass scale, the public interest is fucked. The same mechanisms that tell Amazon what products to recommend are equally adept at surveillance for social control. False positives (unjust arrests etc) are actually a bonus from that point of view for their intimidation value.


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## mauvais (Nov 26, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I think there's a great deal of synergy between mass surveillance by spooks and mass surveillance by commercial interests. Where there's a conflict, for example when the US tried to introduce key escrow, the spooks got put back in their box for commercial reasons. (OK in practice they actually carried on trying to compromise fundamental elements of security at a hardware level, but they stopped talking about it in public.)
> 
> Where there's a synergy , as there is with metadata analysis on a mass scale, the public interest is fucked. The same mechanisms that tell Amazon what products to recommend are equally adept at surveillance for social control. False positives (unjust arrests etc) are actually a bonus from that point of view for their intimidation value.


I don't disagree, and there's certainly both dependencies and friction between the two sets. But I don't think there's that strong an overlap.

Outside of electioneering, government mostly cares about specific scenarios or specific people. So e.g. broad but specific anti-terrorism intercepts, or hacking a specific target's phone. Commercial interests mostly care about broad patterns and analytics across the population at large. The latter's work can reactively feed into the former but AFAIK the government aren't routinely and proactively collecting location data on everyone, whereas commercial entities are.

Basically the sort of thing that people fear the government might be doing is probably _not _being performed by government, but it is happening via commercial products and services, and not on government's behalf, although the barriers between may be fragile or non-existent.


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## Bernie Gunther (Nov 26, 2016)

Snowden was pretty clear that the NSA are hoovering up everything they can from the network, from compliant end points such as major cloud providers, storing it 'just in case' and running massive data mining operations on it.

60% hit rate for advert personalisation is one thing, but similar accuracy applied to target profiles for drone signature strikes is quite another.

It may well be that targeting known individuals is the only activity that's actually relevant to preventing terrorism, but they're doing indiscriminate mass surveillance. 

They're just not using it to quash political dissent on a large scale in places like the US and UK. That's happening in plenty of other places already though, and as recent political events have shown, there's no telling what kind of government lies in our future or what sort of use they'd put all that information to.


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## mauvais (Nov 26, 2016)

They're doing mass data _gathering_, no doubt. In a UK context, that's what EU-DRD and the various content retention requirements were/are about, forcing ISPs and CSPs to collect massive data volumes that they would have otherwise discarded. I have my doubts as to whether the UK is doing much useful with it though.

I have very little idea about what the US are up to.


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## Bernie Gunther (Nov 26, 2016)

I doubt that the mass data collection and analysis is terribly useful for its nominal purpose of preventing terrorism. 

Thing is though, they're not throwing any of it away and they've got enough storage keep all of it forever. 

So its still going to be there if an extremist government that will use it for active repression takes power.


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## mauvais (Nov 26, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I doubt that the mass data collection and analysis is terribly useful for its nominal purpose of preventing terrorism.
> 
> Thing is though, they're not throwing any of it away and they've got enough storage keep all of it forever.


The government didn't keep it*, they forced the providers to keep it, with the data centre costs to go with it. So there is finite storage and there is an incentive to do the minimum. Its main use is in the anti-terrorism context because they can do retrospective analysis and work out who was communicating with whom.

*this was all what was supposed to happen when EU-DRD was rolling along unmolested - I lost track of what actually did happen after it ran into trouble


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## Bernie Gunther (Nov 26, 2016)

Ah I see where we have wires crossed. I'm not talking about making ISPs retain data, I'm talking about the NSA upstream programmes and TEMPORA and stuff like that where they're hoovering metadata straight off the backbone.


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## mauvais (Nov 26, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Ah I see where we have wires crossed. I'm not talking about making ISPs retain data, I'm talking about the NSA upstream programmes and TEMPORA and stuff like that where they're hoovering metadata straight off the backbone.


Yeah. I don't know everything, but I suspect this is - in the UK case - quite carefully targeted. Certainly real-time backbone intercepts are a thing, but they can't keep everything even briefly, never mind forever. That's why they're going for retention at the provider end.

Whether or not they have backdoors into non-realtime data pools (like your Facebook profile) is another question. I suspect that at least with a warrant, they can do anything.


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## Bernie Gunther (Nov 26, 2016)

The cooperation/coercion based access to major end-points is the PRISM programme I mentioned above.

There is both targetted and indiscriminate surveillance going on.

On the one hand the Tailored Access Operations - Wikipedia do indeed go after specific persons of interest with relatively expensive techniques.

On the other hand, we have a whole lot of information (linked above) about indiscriminate, relatively low cost per metadata item stuff they're also doing. TEMPORA (linked above) being the GCHQ programme for indiscriminate surveillance.


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## gorski (Nov 26, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> They don't have to overcome strong encryption if they can compromise the end points.
> 
> To my mind the value of encryption is an aggregate thing. If the NSA really wants to compromise your device, they can do it. It's way more expensive to do that than to just suck in everything they can from the backbone though. So they aren't going to do it without reason, whereas the backbone hoovering they do just because they can.



Sure, for those that are really terrorists, they can intercept their packages, infest their HW and SW and whatnot.

But what of the Amer-Indians protest re. crude oil pipelines? Suddenly, all of them are targets as well??

And no idiot sitting pretty in a Wall Street bank, plotting to bring down the whole system, is a suspect??!!??

Now, I say we must do whatever we can to make it as difficult as possible for those a-holes...


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## gorski (Nov 26, 2016)

mauvais said:


> I'd like to know what people think is more important: message content, or patterns.



They obviously do both, since they must, if a suspect is intent upon killing en mass etc. No problem there. But... see above...

We know since the advent of credit cards that, for instance, German state was immediately able to follow about 2 million people daily... Sure, it helps but it does not replace infiltration, direct observation etc. No problem with the people intent upon killing, especially en mass!

However, the issue becomes serious, when the pretext/laws become rubbery and one can shove anything one wants under them...


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## Backatcha Bandit (Nov 26, 2016)

Bernie Gunther said:


> There is both targetted and indiscriminate surveillance going on.



'Directed' and 'undirected', to put it in RIPA-speak.  It's a vital distinction to make, as they continually use the (arguable) need for the former to justify the latter.

Let's face it, if you're the target of a 'directed' effort, there's probably not going to be a whole lot you can effectively do about it (or even do to _know_ about it).

But WRT the metadata, the mobile comms infrastructure was never designed with privacy in mind - the system must obviously be aware of where you are and where your call/SMS is going at all times in order to function.  So we willingly trade privacy for convenience, as we know the value of neither.


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## existentialist (Nov 27, 2016)

two sheds said:


>


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## gorski (Dec 1, 2016)

Na, ja...

Edward Snowden (@Snowden) on Twitter

US, of course, follows the UK Gov "lead":



> Without a debate or any new law, the rights of every American -- and basic privacy of people around the world -- have been narrowed. #Rule41



And the German SS (security Service  ) is not to be outdone...

Edward Snowden Retweeted netzpolitik:



> In the midst of a global computer security crisis, German intelligence is investing €150M to further weaken communications security. Really.



P.S. Just how crude is the suppression in the "land of the free", have a look:

The Government Is Using a No Fly Zone to Suppress Journalism At Standing Rock

*The Government Is Using a No Fly Zone to Suppress Journalism At Standing Rock*


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## existentialist (Dec 1, 2016)

gorski said:


> Na, ja...
> 
> Edward Snowden (@Snowden) on Twitter
> 
> ...


Gosh.


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## gorski (Dec 17, 2016)

Backatcha Bandit said:


> Threema uses Google Cloud Messaging, hence requires GApps (unless you want to continuously poll for new messages)...



"It also works without GCM, then it uses it's own method as fallback (Polling). Read here & here."

Howzzat?


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